# Status of Reserve BMQ/SQ



## Sig_Des (14 Aug 2004)

I am currently a week away from completing my Communications Reserve BMQ/SQ at CFB Shilo, and things are a lot different than I thought they would be.

One thing that disturbs me is the lack of area's covered. Seeing that the combined courses are now only 7 weeks, they have cut out quite a bit. There is nothing on the C6, M72, or Carl G. The swimtest has been removed, as has been the 13k ruckmarch, as "Students may become injured". Students who are not NEARLY physically fit enough are still here in week 6. People who are falling out of a 6K Jog, each day.

Is it just me, or are the Forces continually dropping standards and coddling recruits, affecting the general standard of our soldiers? I am proud to be a member of this organization, but am also somewhat disturbed by what seems to be happening.

What happens if I'm on tour, and someone some of these people are serving next to other CF members, possibly endangering them, because of the lack of drive or motivation. Who does this reflect on, the recruits with no drive, or the organisation that isn't driving them?

All Comments are welcome.


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## D-n-A (14 Aug 2004)

BMQ and SQ combined is only 7 weeks? My BMQ alone was 5 weeks. The SQ course being taught in my area right now is 4-5 weeks long I beleive, and the C6, Carl G and M72 LAW are covered in it. The swimtest, from what I hear it is something that can still be done in Reserve BMQ, but there isn't always the time or facialitys to do it. 

What you didn't get covered on your courses should be covered in your unit during the year, atleast in my unit its covered, as I'm sure it is in the combat arms units.

As for the people who lack drive and motivation, they probably won't last long in the CF or get very far with a poor attitude.


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## Blindspot (15 Aug 2004)

Mopo_26 said:
			
		

> Is it just me, or are the Forces continually dropping standards and coddling recruits, affecting the general standard of our soldiers? I am proud to be a member of this organization, but am also somewhat disturbed by what seems to be happening.



I don't know if this is true or not but an American friend of mine told me that recruits in the US Army are now issued a yellow card that can be used as a "time out". Getting a serious dressing down by an instructor? Pull out your yellow card and call a "time out" to avoid the stress and major embarassment. What wonderful thing that would be to have when the enemy is firing at you. Sounds like something any one of my three levels of government would have thought up.


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## PTE Gruending (15 Aug 2004)

Blindspot, thats a myth, do a search on this site......



			
				Blindspot said:
			
		

> I don't know if this is true or not but an American friend of mine told me that recruits in the US Army are now issued a yellow card that can be used as a "time out". Getting a serious dressing down by an instructor? Pull out your yellow card and call a "time out" to avoid the stress and major embarassment. What wonderful thing that would be to have when the enemy is firing at you. Sounds like something any one of my three levels of government would have thought up.


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## pbi (15 Aug 2004)

I'm not so sure this is a myth. I have read references to it by various US writers (military and non-) who have complained about the damage this was doing to the quality of soldier being produced by the US Army training system. I'm sorry, but I don't have any of those references at hand. This "yelllow card" would not really be all that surprising, because over the last few years the US Army has been struggling with recruiting and retention problems. Some US commentators have even suggested that they are in danger of drifting back to what they call the "Hollow Army" in which units were badly undermanned during the period following Vietnam (?). 

Bringing in the black beret for every soldier was one of the methods that was applied to try to reverse the trend of bad recruitng and poor retention. I'm not sure if it fixed those problems, but it severely p**sed off the Ranger/SF community, who had been wearing the beret before.

The US Army may be big and powerful but it makes dumb mistakes just like we do, believe me.


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## PuckChaser (15 Aug 2004)

After doing my CommRes BMQ in Shilo in '02, and hearing the stories from the recruits that came back, its gotten progressively easier. I was in the first year of CommRes being in Shilo, and it was the biggest pain to get around. The school building you were in? We marched to that every day. 2.7kms. My PL had 5 medical RTUs due to foot problems (extended marches). I'm appalled to hear they've cut the C6, and the 13k out of the program. I know I didn't do the full Carl G/C6 firing and such, but we did the theory and handling drills, which is enough considering we're in Comms. I learned the M72 at my unit, you might as well.

PT is something seriously lacking, and needs to be addressed. There's something to be said when an entire PL can complete the 13k BET under time, without anyone falling out, or falling behind. Some people think its a summer camp, and that impression needs to change.


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## Sig_Des (28 Aug 2004)

> PT is something seriously lacking, and needs to be addressed. There's something to be said when an entire PL can complete the 13k BET under time, without anyone falling out, or falling behind. Some people think its a summer camp, and that impression needs to change.



Man, I totally agree. Some guys from the unit I'm in and I have actually decided to do a 13k ruck on our own. We felt deprived. And I'm aware that the instructors aren't at fault here. The orders to cut the physical dmands trickle from the top. I just felt a little cheated. I was expecting a huge physical challenge, but did less pt than I do in practice for my local Rugby club.


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## skura (29 Aug 2004)

But the basics all stay the same, right?   The push-ups, sit-ups, chin ups, running (well, not so much running it seems, but the other three things mentioned, they wouldn't be taken out or given lower standards as well would they)?

What about training required for certain trades...are they being altered as well or the just the BMQ/SQ standards / testing?

::EDIT:: I guess the basics ARE being changed, this is basic training afterall...


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## PuckChaser (29 Aug 2004)

I don't know if the difficultly level is going down, but a lot of things are changing over at CFSCE. We had an hour long critique written up about my 5's, just from the changes that were made and tested on us.


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## Sig_Des (1 Sep 2004)

> But the basics all stay the same, right?  The push-ups, sit-ups, chin ups, running (well, not so much running it seems, but the other three things mentioned, they wouldn't be taken out or given lower standards as well would they)?



Push-ups we did a lot of. Sit ups, very rarely, and chin-ups, well.... we had to do as many as we could on our evaluating pt test on the first week. After that, it was as many as you want to do in the Shacks


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## ackland (1 Sep 2004)

I'm not sure how things are out in shillo, but I instructed a Comms basic in Meaford in 01. It was slightly different than what every one else was being taught. The experience that I had was that Comms being under a different comand than the asrmy did what they wanted and left out what they didn't like. I t was alien to me I am an Armoured SGt and i acted as the swing NCO for that course the othe plt had another armoured mcpl as the swing nco. we were both shocked at the double standard tha t was being taught and the lack of motivation being applied to the troops. there was little emphasis on troops being physically fit do to there future jobs with in a comms regiment. It seemed they weren't intrested in good soldiers as they were in unbroken tech wennies.lot's of week people were removed from the course and the tempo was raised much to the efforts of myself and fellow armoured mcpl. 

If you are concerened by this you should endevour to stay upto date on your soldiers skills and pass those on to your recruits if and when you become an insructor and follow the steps required to remove the week who can't hack it. :warstory:


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## Sig_Des (2 Sep 2004)

The plan Is to keep up, and at least keep myself motivated. But if this is something that reflects the status of the Comm Reserve as a whole, I've honestly been considering switching over to the Infantry. I've never had so much fun as being a 2IC on a patrol. SQ was probably the most fun I've had in a long time, and even a couple of instructors said maybe I'd enjoy that pace more


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## hiv (2 Sep 2004)

pbi said:
			
		

> I'm not so sure this is a myth. I have read references to it by various US writers (military and non-) who have complained about the damage this was doing to the quality of soldier being produced by the US Army training system. I'm sorry, but I don't have any of those references at hand. This "yelllow card" would not really be all that surprising, because over the last few years the US Army has been struggling with recruiting and retention problems. Some US commentators have even suggested that they are in danger of drifting back to what they call the "Hollow Army" in which units were badly undermanned during the period following Vietnam (?).
> 
> The US Army may be big and powerful but it makes dumb mistakes just like we do, believe me.



Maybe this will clarify things on this matter

http://www.snopes.com/military/stress.htm


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## FlightSergeantRose (2 Sep 2004)

I just got back from the BMQ/SQ in Winnipeg at the Minto armoury. It was about 7 weeks long and we did c7, c9, c6, grenades, and we fired the Carl G. We spent 10 days at Shilo for our FTX. It was cold out there but it was alright.


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## PteCamp (2 Sep 2004)

I too just got back from the wonderful CFB Shilo. I was there for just the SQ portion because the BMQ I did didn't offer SQ.
I found that the SQ portion of the summer was a cake walk. Even from watching the BMQ from the beginning of the summer it looked to be 10 times easier then when I went through basic the previous summer. I know a lot of you guy who have been in a while keep saying "When I did basic...." and me and a lot of the other guys who were in Shilo even found ourselves saying that same statement and we had only done basic the summer before. Why is it getting so easy? The challenge and stress is what makes BMQ what it's supposed to be, and yet there is very little. I saw a lot of people get through this summer who definitly should not have. 

-KaT- 

ps. Mopo_26 what platoon were you in?


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## meni0n (2 Sep 2004)

Last year basic in Shilo had the 13km walk c6, grenades and the carl g. We did do the swimtest and good PT due to great instructors. Once SQ started we were doing 10km ruck marches 3 times a week. This year's drop in standards might be due to change of commandant and the sgt major. Although last year's commandant wasn't ahem too rought. Rules at the school were no swearing. On the 13km march, she came along with us and I said someone was on chit but with my accent it sounded like sh*t and she said to me no swearing. Go figure.


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## Sig_Des (2 Sep 2004)

> ps. Mopo_26 what platoon were you in?



I was in 5 Platoon. Were you GD during the BMQ Portion?


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## chrisf (2 Sep 2004)

PteKec said:
			
		

> When I did basic...." and me and a lot of the other guys who were in Shilo even found ourselves saying that same statement



I did a weekend basic, and I found myself saying the same thing... on the other hand... I once watched an instructor bite the head off a live chicken [For legal purposes: No, I have not watched an instructor bite the head off a live chicken. That was a joke. My course WO for basic was however a very scary man.]

P.S. Pft. Navy.

P.P.S. Barrel.


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## PteCamp (2 Sep 2004)

Mopo_26 yeah I was on of the wonderful GD Staff during the BMQ portion of the summer.

And Just a Sig Op for your info the Navy training was a great/challenging experience....don't put the Navy down...


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## chrisf (2 Sep 2004)

You'll note that after rethinking my reply, I modified it extensively... though I'll knock whatever I want to knock. Particularly the barrel.


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## PteCamp (2 Sep 2004)

Hey! It's not like I did my basic on a boat...therefore there was no barrel!!!!
I have only heard the stories....and hey whatever they wanna do, all the power to them!  
But the barrel.....I know nothing about!!


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## Sig_Des (3 Sep 2004)

> I was on of the wonderful GD Staff



Wonderful GD Staff...You guys were fun when Drunk...You hear about how some PPCLI guys broke into a kids room a poured liquid soap down his throat?


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## PteCamp (3 Sep 2004)

Well we sure loved being drunk...what can we say, we had a lot of spare time, and a lot of booze on our hands...

Oh yes, what a fun night/morning that was....All the police and reports and...oh boy! lol


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## Northern Touch (10 Sep 2004)

Well, from what I've been reading and what I went through, I think its safe to say that the standards are slowly being lowered and lowered.

I just got back from Meaford for BMQ / SQ and I know that myself, as well as many of the guys in my platoon and section felt cheated on the PT.  We went 3 days straight with no PT becuase of a WO inspection, a platoon comanders inspection, followed by a company commanders inspection the next day.  The staff wanted us to be fully ready for inspection so they cut our PT.  We went for ONE tough run the whole time, where 15 people dropped out, other then that, we had the same 2-3 guys drop out everyrun, but it wasn't that far, maybe 4 km or so.  Our ruck marchs were fast but not great distances.  From what I gathered, it's not entirely the staff and platoon comanders fault for the shortage of PT.  There is only an hour schedualed for PT in the morning and you can only do what you can get done in that hour.  If they dont schedual 2 hours, troops can't go on longer ruck marchs or evne BEGIN to build themselves up to a 13km level of stamina.  I knwo many guys that wished we had a BFT at the end of couse.  It seemed like it was all about keeping the numbers up instead of sending the weak ones home.

We did do the C6 and C9 and grenades but not the CarlG or M72 (although I got an M72 crash course at SG).  No swim test either but I did have to complete it at SG so it's done and out of the way.


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## Pte. Bloggins (10 Sep 2004)

WRT Comms basic, I did mine last year in Shilo, and alot of us fumed when we heard at how different it was this yr to last. I mean, sure, a lot of people compalined last year saying PT on basic wasn't challenging enough, but I've been hearing that this year some courses did PT ONCE during the entire SQ. ONCE - THAT'S IT. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't SQ supposed to be sort of a semi-infantry like course- or at least the closest thing most of us will do to infantry-like trg in our Comms careers before PLQ? We did more PT this summer on our 3s for f*cks sake. As menion said earlier, we were doing 10k ruckmarches 3 times a week and when we found out they took the 13k out completely some of us (ok, me...let's just say my rucksack and me aren't the greatest of friends   ) got a little   :threat: I mean, our comms basic was a lot easier compared to what others on this board have done, but what happenned to standards from this yr to last is just sad.


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## ackland (10 Sep 2004)

you are reserve comms in a different org  than the rest of the army reserve hence you standards appear to be different. for what ever reason when a comms basic is happening there are components deemed as unimportant. IE PT your highers are scared of breaking some computer geeks body. Not saying Sigs are all computer geeks but the difference I've seen from Army reserve recruits and Sig recruits. well you can definitely see the difference in the type of person being recruited.


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## PteCamp (10 Sep 2004)

Ok for one thing TR you can't assume everyone that is part of comms are "computer geeks"
Soldiers decide to join the Comms because that is what some of us are actually interested in. The basic standard levels are dropping, and everyone can see that, but they aren't just dropping in the Comms element, they are dropping in every element. So don't try to tell us that because we are in Comms we couldn't do well in other elements to, we aren't going to be broken.


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## Sig_Des (11 Sep 2004)

TR, I'll agree with PteKec, the physical standards may have been different, but we had guys on our SQ who had done their basic through the infantry, and they were dropping out 2 minutes into a morning pt, being outrung by socalled *Computer Geeks*

As far as physical standards being different, it's kinda BS. It supposed to be one standard. Everyone in the Armed forces is supposed to be at the same basic level, and that's what bmq is all about.

Asfar as joining because we're interested, I've had fun as a sig. I was supposed to be Infantry, and was on my way, but my eyes weren't good enough, so sigs sounded more fun than Resource Management Support Clerk. So don't knock or stereotype a trade, cuz some of these *computer geeks* are tough


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## chrisf (11 Sep 2004)

TR said:
			
		

> you are reserve comms in a different org   than the rest of the army reserve hence you standards appear to be different. for what ever reason when a comms basic is happening there are components deemed as unimportant. IE PT your highers are scared of breaking some computer geeks body. Not saying Sigs are all computer geeks but the difference I've seen from Army reserve recruits and Sig recruits. well you can definitely see the difference in the type of person being recruited.



I can assure you... while I freely admit to being a nerd, I am *not* easily broken... far... far from it in fact... I'd really appreciate it if you didn't make such sweeping generalizations in the future...

I've got a rather long ramble about this subject, having done my basic training with combat arms, if you want to hear it, let me know via private message, it's not a public forum sort of ramble.


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## PuckChaser (11 Sep 2004)

I've seen a few people from the militia that could be grouped in the same area, but I'm sure they went and passed the same PT test, and the same BMQ standards (after all, there is a set standard for the land force reserve, comms or not).  Some are computer geeks, and others look like Mr. T. Don't paint everyone with the same brush, you'll be liable to get the same comments thrown back your way.


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## ackland (13 Sep 2004)

PteKec said:
			
		

> Ok for one thing TR you can't assume everyone that is part of comms are "computer geeks"


 


			
				TR said:
			
		

> Not saying Sigs are all computer geeks but the difference I've seen from Army reserve recruits and Sig recruits. well you can definitely see the difference in the type of person being recruited.



     ah you didn't read my whole post. I don't believe all Signals types are geeks. I 'm just saying from my experience that I noticed a differing between to two types of candidates. 

Try reading next time my whole post I am not one fro petty trade disputes. We all have our jobs to do.


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## LCISTech227 (13 Sep 2004)

TR,
Having been a Armoured MCpl, and then doing a component transfer to the regs in to a Sig's trade, I find your comments kind of offensive.   I can point out specific instances where Infanteers, Armoured and Engineers have some pretty deplorable physical fitness and are absolutely useless in the field.   I think you're a little too close to the subject.   Ain't nothing wrong with unit/corps pride but.... man.

I've instructed on tons of courses and I'll tell you what:   The standard is lower across the board, not just in the Sig's.

You as an instructor know how difficult it is to remove someone from a course,   back in the day they could have you off a course in a couple of days if they wanted to.   Now, you're kinda stuck with what you got and have to do the best you can, and try and bring even the weak ones kicking and screaming to the goal... graduation, whether you like it or not.

Just my 2 cents... take it for what it is... but having seen what it's like on both sides of the fence I think I have a better perspective then you.


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## Sig_Des (15 Sep 2004)

> Try reading next time my whole post I am not one fro petty trade disputes



It wasn't the geek comment TR, it was the fact that you said the sigs trade has a different physical standard. It the same everywhere, and as stated by others, the level IS being dropped across the board.

I was speaking w/ one of my sergeants on the issue, and he said it seems to be that the physical requirements seems to be dropping back as the forces are focusing on having smart soldiers. They would rather spend the little time available at bmq/SQ ingraining knowledge into the soldier, and working him up to a point where he can meet higher physical standards.


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## Rushrules (15 Sep 2004)

Physically, same std across the board.  However, if you don't have the aptitude to be a Sig Op/LMN, then you will qualify for a lesser trade (and they will cetainly take you).

Problem with the BET on BMQ and SQ is that it's not part of the TP for Reservists.  PT still should be done, but only as the schedule permits... The Reg F is responsible for the physical fitness of it's mbrs, not so for the Reserves.  If a Recruit has a heart attack on the Res SQ, as long as he passed the express test, then that was all that was required.  If he's fat and useless, that's another story.


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