# Navy drones



## Spencer100 (14 May 2019)

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2019-05-10/qinetiq-led-team-selected-canadian-uav-requirement

Navy getting VTOL drones?


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## dimsum (14 May 2019)

Looks like it, with contractors fixing and flying them off the ships.


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## Cloud Cover (14 May 2019)

Looks like a "Modest Proposal" from the old CASR website.
Anyway, it's something and that's better than nothing!

Edit: the "special operations payload" sounds all spooky and stuff like that.


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## Colin Parkinson (15 May 2019)

Meanwhile 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFTToTsJuY0&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR2U84P2xJ_bEPX6hTxVqYpWgCG6d2F-Ml3m6Hk0sxGANdhfuP8jEFuqRoc


Imagine a fleet of these operating with towed array's listening for subs.


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## Underway (17 May 2019)

It's quite exciting.  AESA radars on a RPA are pretty good.  And by having them contracted it allows for constant improvement in the RPA, like what happened with the ScanEagle program.  They just updated EO/IR camera's as they went because the capability was there.  Instead of the military running a whole new RFP etc... to get new EO/IR.  Also means the aircraft will be showing up Q3 or Q4 of this year and will be able to go right on ship as there will be no need to train the ships crew on operations.

My only concern is that on deploying ships having contractors onboard is irritating...  not as irritating as NTOG mind you but still...


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## NavyHopeful (20 May 2019)

I actually got qualified this fall as an Operator/Technician for the Qinetiq SNYPER-UAS this past fall.  The last I had heard was that the original intention for the SNYPER was to be a target for AAW, similar to how the Hammerhead is used for ASuW.  They were looking at adding a camera to the UAS so that they could expand the use of the SNYPER for things like gathering information on a VOI prior to a boarding, in the event that there is no helo onboard.

I think it's a great secondary duty for a sailor, and it also helps enhance the mission by using innovative ways to do the job that will, in turn, save the government a bunch of money by NOT having to fly a helo.

Just my  :2c:

Rev


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## Edward Campbell (20 May 2019)

I'm sorry, but ...
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... I have to say what I know many are thinking ...
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... the thread title, 'Navy drones,' made be think, right off the bat, that this was a thread about all the RCN HQ staff officers in Ottawa.


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## dapaterson (20 May 2019)

The strategic thinkers, forward looking equipment gurus for the RCN work for the Directorate of Naval Requirements.  Which abbreviates to DNR, a medical term used for those beyond help - Do Not Resuscitate.


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## FSTO (20 May 2019)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The strategic thinkers, forward looking equipment gurus for the RCN work for the Directorate of Naval Requirements.  Which abbreviates to DNR, a medical term used for those beyond help - Do Not Resuscitate.


DAR and DLR are pillars of transformation and forward thinking?


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## dapaterson (20 May 2019)

Nope.

But their acronyms are nowhere near as funny.

(Hey, I am the one who suggested that Maternity CADPAT was designed by and for overweight male staff officers in DLR... I am an equal opportunity hater).


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## dimsum (20 May 2019)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> But their acronyms are nowhere near as funny.
> /quote]
> 
> You just need to hear "DAR" spoken in a Brit or Aussie accent then.
> ...


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## Underway (24 May 2019)

Now for some news on UUV's

AUVSI News



> Sonardyne Inc. has announced that its integrated navigation, positioning and communications technology will support Cellula Robotics’ new, fuel cell-powered long-range UUV, which is being designed for the Canadian defense department.
> 
> Known as Solus-LR, the UUV is being designed to be able to travel up to 2,000 kilometers, and stay submerged for missions stretching months at a time with support from an onboard fuel cell power pack.
> 
> ...



Months at a time with 2000 nm is an impressive goal.  I can see a ship just dropping one off in a specific area (Syria coast for example) and just letting it patrol for a month or two, keeping track of the coming and going of ships and subs.

I also quite like how DRDC picks certain things and focus' on them.  Integrating sonar info onboard ships in a better way, rest/sleep cycles for ships crew etc...  Things that are small but really make a difference when they start working.


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## daftandbarmy (24 May 2019)

Underway said:
			
		

> Now for some news on UUV's
> 
> AUVSI News
> 
> ...



Clearly, the US Navy is trying to keep up with the other services with respect to being able to do their job globally while being able to get home each night to walk the dog  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoE7jVno2Uc


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## Underway (24 May 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Clearly, the US Navy is trying to keep up with the other services with respect to being able to do their job globally while being able to get home each night to walk the dog  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoE7jVno2Uc



Canadian Navy.  Its a Defence Research and Development Canada project.


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## Eye In The Sky (25 May 2019)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Meanwhile
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFTToTsJuY0&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR2U84P2xJ_bEPX6hTxVqYpWgCG6d2F-Ml3m6Hk0sxGANdhfuP8jEFuqRoc
> 
> ...



very slow, no sprint ability to move them where they're needed, no ability to carry a kill store...I'm not really impressed.  The array wouldn't be a very big one...


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## Eye In The Sky (25 May 2019)

Spencer100 said:
			
		

> https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2019-05-10/qinetiq-led-team-selected-canadian-uav-requirement
> 
> Navy getting VTOL drones?



No.  UAVs/RPAs are not drones.


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## Colin Parkinson (25 May 2019)

Underway said:
			
		

> Now for some news on UUV's
> 
> AUVSI News
> 
> ...


Indian Arm has seen a lot of UAV work, the early semi-submersibles were a common sight, remember doing a seismic job out there while they were testing the drones, it would be a collision course with your vessel, then auto detect and alter course away, that was mid 90's.


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## Underway (25 May 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> very slow, no sprint ability to move them where they're needed, no ability to carry a kill store...I'm not really impressed.  The array wouldn't be a very big one...



Well the way I look at it is they loiter, and move about slowly in a specific area.  Then when they detect something interesting they call you EITS to come and do a more "detailed analysis".  Intelligence gathering UUV is a valuable asset, esp underwater.



			
				Colin P said:
			
		

> Indian Arm has seen a lot of UUV/USV work, the early semi-submersibles were a common sight, remember doing a seismic job out there while they were testing the drones, it would be a collision course with your vessel, then auto detect and alter course away, that was mid 90's.



UAV fly's.  I assume that was just a typo!   ;D  Indian Arm is a great place to do that sort of work.


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## daftandbarmy (26 May 2019)

Colin P said:
			
		

> *Indian Arm* has seen a lot of UAV work, the early semi-submersibles were a common sight, remember doing a seismic job out there while they were testing the drones, it would be a collision course with your vessel, then auto detect and alter course away, that was mid 90's.



I grew up in the Deep Cove area and Indian Arm was one of our playgrounds for swimming, fishing etc. Not many people in North Van are from 'round there anymore, and I was talking to some people, a few months ago, about 'Indian Arm'. They looked at me like I had kicked a kitten, and I'm like 'what? what did I do?'.

I had used the 'I word', of course.  :facepalm:


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## Eye In The Sky (26 May 2019)

Underway said:
			
		

> Well the way I look at it is they loiter, and move about slowly in a specific area.  Then when they detect something interesting they call you EITS to come and do a more "detailed analysis".  Intelligence gathering UUV is a valuable asset, esp underwater.



If they were 'in significant numbers'...maybe?  I'd like to see more info on (1) how much of an area can a single unit monitor (2) what happens with the data it is receiving (someone has to do analysis...where is that done and who is doing it).

It is going to have to broadcast the data somehow...if the opposing force knows there is a field of these things around a certain area, then it is performing the same function as a minefield really (something to go around).  

They have some cap's, no doubt but we are pretty thin on ASW as it is;  I'd invest in other assets before dropping dollars on this (we simply don't have the budget we need now, let alone adding systems like this in place).   :2c:


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## Underway (26 May 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> If they were 'in significant numbers'...maybe?  I'd like to see more info on (1) how much of an area can a single unit monitor (2) what happens with the data it is receiving (someone has to do analysis...where is that done and who is doing it).
> 
> It is going to have to broadcast the data somehow...if the opposing force knows there is a field of these things around a certain area, then it is performing the same function as a minefield really (something to go around).
> 
> They have some cap's, no doubt but we are pretty thin on ASW as it is;  I'd invest in other assets before dropping dollars on this (we simply don't have the budget we need now, let alone adding systems like this in place).   :2c:



I think at this time they are still proving the concept.  If they can get it to do 2000nm and/or have 3 months endurance then the thoughts on sensors come into play.  Perhaps a new system that has room for sensors.  Last sail off the coast of Syria has really shown me the light on how useful this would be.  Combined with MPA, shipborne helo etc... those tight quarter waters would make things much more difficult for a DE sub to hide.

A _persistent unseen_ sensor is invaluable.


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## Sub_Guy (26 May 2019)

The UUV would be good for detecting mines.

Detecting subs?  I am not sold, not yet.  Would the UUV utilize auto-detect software?  If so it would have to have an on-board database of both friendly and enemy assets.  Would it utilize active or passive detection?  Active sonar would be tricky because the UUV could inadvertently give away friendly the position of friendly subs (as well as the position of the UUV).  “Ping-stealing” is a thing and it is very effective.  Also active sonar can’t distinguish between friend or foe.

Without a doubt Russia and China would do anything in their power to capture one of these, which would be easy.  If the UUV had a database of ASW assets, it would be even more attractive.

As much as industry wants to push/sell auto-detect/auto-classify software, humans still need to be in the analysis chain.

I feel that our SOSUS network combined with the strategic placement of underwater assets sufficient enough for undersea monitoring.

The last thing I want is another asset sending me off chasing Poss-low contacts.  The navy does that more than enough.  I know that is part of the job, but sometimes it does get a little ridiculous.


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## Colin Parkinson (27 May 2019)

Underway said:
			
		

> Well the way I look at it is they loiter, and move about slowly in a specific area.  Then when they detect something interesting they call you EITS to come and do a more "detailed analysis".  Intelligence gathering UUV is a valuable asset, esp underwater.
> 
> UAV fly's.  I assume that was just a typo!   ;D  Indian Arm is a great place to do that sort of work.



Sorry should have been AUV which is civy world talk. UUV sounds like it should be a birth control device....


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## daftandbarmy (27 May 2019)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Sorry should have been AUV which is civy world talk. UUV sounds like it should be a birth control device....



If it was armed with a good sized warhead, it _would _be a good birth control device


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## Underway (4 Sep 2019)

So HMCS TORONTO is undergoing a minor refit right now.  The purpose is to remove the Stbd Torp magazine and tubes and replace them with an RPA/UAS repair/storage space.  There will also be a new RPA control system added.  

Anyone have any info on this?  Not sure where the control system is going but I fear the loss of another CSE space...  From what I understand it's going to be a multifunctional UAS/USV space where multiple types of remote vehicles can be control from, (Puma, SKELDAR, Snyper and Hammerhead).  However my fix is a rather large cocked hat on this.

As for impact to the ship, halving the number of tubes and torps carried doesn't seem like that much of a big deal in the tradeoff to have UAS organic capability.  Especially with the new Mk 54 Torps which have massively improved lethality and programing.  Organic UAS capability is something that will be used all the time, every day with a massive impact on situational awareness and maritime picture compilation.  As well all the training improvements with the remote piloted targets one can use.


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## NavyShooter (4 Sep 2019)

Underway said:
			
		

> So HMCS TORONTO is undergoing a minor refit right now.  The purpose is to remove the Stbd Torp magazine and tubes and replace them with an RPA/UAS repair/storage space.  There will also be a new RPA control system added.
> 
> Anyone have any info on this?  Not sure where the control system is going but I fear the loss of another CSE space...  From what I understand it's going to be a multifunctional UAS/USV space where multiple types of remote vehicles can be control from, (Puma, SKELDAR, Snyper and Hammerhead).  However my fix is a rather large cocked hat on this.
> 
> As for impact to the ship, halving the number of tubes and torps carried doesn't seem like that much of a big deal in the tradeoff to have UAS organic capability.  Especially with the new Mk 54 Torps which have massively improved lethality and programing.  Organic UAS capability is something that will be used all the time, every day with a massive impact on situational awareness and maritime picture compilation.  As well all the training improvements with the remote piloted targets one can use.




No idea on exact details, but I'd be surprised if they pulled the tubes out - more likely to just pull the racks and leave the crane/tubes in place, then it's only a loss of torpedo storage, not launcher capability.  Dump a dozen torps, sustain the launch capability on both sides, while still having torps for aircraft carry, and adding this space?  Good plan.  


If you're interested, have a look a the writeup I did a few years ago in the Marine Engineering Journal proposing exactly this, only to enable installation of a 120mm AMOS turret on the Stbd Mezz deck to enable NGFS.


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## Eye In The Sky (4 Sep 2019)

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> No idea on exact details, but I'd be surprised if they pulled the tubes out - more likely to just pull the racks and leave the crane/tubes in place, then it's only a loss of torpedo storage, not launcher capability.  Dump a dozen torps, sustain the launch capability on both sides, while still having torps for aircraft carry, and adding this space?  Good plan.
> 
> 
> If you're interested, have a look a the writeup I did a few years ago in the Marine Engineering Journal proposing exactly this, only to enable installation of a 120mm AMOS turret on the Stbd Mezz deck to enable NGFS.



Is there a link for this, by any chance, you can post here or PM?


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## Sub_Guy (5 Sep 2019)

Page 3

http://www.cntha.ca/static/documents/mej/mej-70.pdf


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## Underway (5 Sep 2019)

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> No idea on exact details, but I'd be surprised if they pulled the tubes out - more likely to just pull the racks and leave the crane/tubes in place, then it's only a loss of torpedo storage, not launcher capability.  Dump a dozen torps, sustain the launch capability on both sides, while still having torps for aircraft carry, and adding this space?  Good plan.



Consider yourself surprised then.  Everything is coming out of the space, the tubes, the HP air flask, the crane, the racks.  Down to studs.  TOR may be doing their next deployment with an organic RPA/UAS capability by the looks of things.  

I wonder if the SKELDAR V-200 is able to fit into that space/be moved in and out of that space.   It's only 1.3m tall and about 4m long.  Certainly can't be done while a Cyclone is embarked in the hangar.


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## Eye In The Sky (5 Sep 2019)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> Page 3
> 
> http://www.cntha.ca/static/documents/mej/mej-70.pdf



Merci!


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## Underway (7 Sep 2019)

Further info as I was digging a bit before hurricane bunkering takes effect.

The RPA is called the Gargoyle which is really the RCN version of the SKELDAR V-200 that includes the AESA radar.  The maintenance and stowage of the system will be in the stbd torp magazine and the control stations will take over either all or part of the current CSE Tech Office (due to various technical reasons...).  Where the CSE Chief and PO1's are going to end up is still a topic for debate.

Not sure if the entire fleet is going to have this refit but I suspect that TOR is just the first.  There is certainly a debate to be had on the capability loss and gain with this change.


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## SeaKingTacco (7 Sep 2019)

I am pretty stoked about this new capability.


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## daftandbarmy (7 Sep 2019)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> I am pretty stoked about this new capability.



Are the drones interactive in any way with the rotary wing folks?


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## Good2Golf (7 Sep 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Are the drones interactive in any way with the rotary wing folks?



Not sure the Navy’s intentions, but MUMT (Manned - Ummanned Teaming)has been operational at advanced levels in the US Army for at least half a decade.  It started just pulling FMV down from UAS to helos, both TCDL and non-TCDL compatible, and more recently with enhanced functionality that augments control of the UAS itself.  The RCN is most likely looking at how MUMT could fit in between CH-148 and Skeldar platforms. 

Regards
G2G


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## Cloud Cover (7 Sep 2019)

reading the company’s literature, this seems to be a really big bump in capability, especially in the littoral if the ship puts SF ashore. 

It looks like some small masts and antennas will be installed as well.


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## daftandbarmy (7 Sep 2019)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Not sure the Navy’s intentions, but MUMT (Manned - Ummanned Teaming)has been operational at advanced levels in the US Army for at least half a decade.  It started just pulling FMV down from UAS to helos, both TCDL and non-TCDL compatible, and more recently with enhanced functionality that augments control of the UAS itself.  The RCN is most likely looking at how MUMT could fit in between CH-148 and Skeldar platforms.
> 
> Regards
> G2G



'My brain hurts.' Mr. Gumby  :surrender:


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## dimsum (7 Sep 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> 'My brain hurts.' Mr. Gumby  :surrender:



Summary:  It went from the end user just seeing the video, to having them be able to (somewhat) control the UAV itself.

That would be an awesome capability for the RCN.  I'd do it...if it was Remote Split Ops in Victoria/Halifax* and I didn't have to sail all the time  :nod:

* Maybe less so with Halifax, with Dorian barrelling down on it right now.


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## SeaKingTacco (7 Sep 2019)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Summary:  It went from the end user just seeing the video, to having them be able to (somewhat) control the UAV itself.
> 
> That would be an awesome capability for the RCN.  I'd do it...if it was Remote Split Ops in Victoria/Halifax* and I didn't have to sail all the time  :nod:
> 
> * Maybe less so with Halifax, with Dorian barrelling down on it right now.



Come back to the dark side. We have soup...at 10.  ;D


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## dimsum (7 Sep 2019)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Come back to the dark side. We have soup...at 10.  ;D



Yeah, but the quality of hotels just isn't the same


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## ModlrMike (7 Sep 2019)

Sailors. We prefer to call them sailors. Drones is so...... impersonal.


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