# All things Health Care Admin/HCA (merged)



## Born2Fly

Just a question as to what these guys do outside of a static health care facility.

Other than "Command a Medical Platoon", I'm not entirely sure what they do in the field. Obviously there are lots of tasks associated with commanding a medical platoon, I was just curious if anyone has any first hand knowledge of what HCA O's do in the field (or even outside of the field... Any info I can get would be great).

I only ask this because it's my second choice on my CF App. ;D


Thanks for your help.


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## vr

Commanding a medical platoon in the field is basically similar to commanding any other sub-unit.  The commander recieves his orders and goes through the umpteen steps of Battle Procedure.  He issues his warning order and sets the time for his own orders.  Through the Pl Warrant the commander oversees preparations for the task at hand.  He then will go recce out the new area and one or more alternates making detailed diagramms of how he wants each site set up.  The platoon commander takes the information he was given and titrates it down to pass on to his own troops.  He supervises the move into and set up of the new postion ensuring proper comms/liason are established with supported/supporting/adjacent units.  Once in position the platoon commander is free to administer the sub-unit and perform any other required tasks such as more liasion and the inevitable 0200-0500 Duty Officer shift in the CP.  In a static facility the HCA's role is more liasion and administration.

The Platoon Commander can be a very busy guy and must eat/sleep when/where he can.  There is a lot of responsibilty and no glory.  All in all his most important tasks are passing information and keeping out of the Platoon Warrant's way! :dontpanic:


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## Brad Sallows

I probably missed the most recent decision on platoon command (there was a lot of discussion the past few years over whether a HCA captain or senior medical officer - MO - should command the medical platoon), but my recollection of the "template" roles for a HCA in a field ambulance is:

1) Platoon 2I/C
2) Medical Company 2I/C
3) Ambulance Company 2I/C and OC
4) Field Ambulance 2I/C (DCO) and staff officers (Operations, Adjutant)

I may very well be mistaken about (1).

"Reconnaissance, liaison, and administration (in the logistical sense)" is a good summary of the duties of a HCA at the platoon level.

I have never actually seen a detailed establishment of a field hospital; I suppose HCAs in that unit would only fill 2I/C and staff positions.  By extension, in the higher formation and joint medical units and HQs I would expect to find HCAs populating 2I/C and staff roles and commanding evacuation-oriented (ie. ambulance) resources, and MOs commanding and occupying functional positions in treatment-oriented resources.

Normally a MO is expected to command a medical company and field ambulance.  Why?  Because a MO should have the best knowledge base from which to conduct a medical estimate.  (I do believe any other medical branch officer can, through self-study, acquire sufficient knowledge of the appropriate general medical factors to fill those command roles.)

I must elaborate on the concept of "through the platoon warrant".  In the reserve world where we often only have a HCA and a platoon warrant (no MOs), the HCA becomes the de facto platoon commander and the warrant the 2I/C.  Regardless, the section commanders are always in the chain of command immediately under the platoon commander.  At one time I misunderstood that the platoon could/should be run "through the platoon warrant" - that works for daily routine, but is not ideal or proper command-wise and does in fact just provide one more opportunity for confusion (one more level of interpretation and passage of information).  Depending on situation and activity levels (ie. difficulty getting the whole gang together), some of the warning and fragmentary orders could be passed to only the warrant (2I/C); but normally at minimum information should be passed to the platoon warrant and section commanders together.

Regardless who fills the roles of platoon commander and 2I/C, the platoon warrant is the best person to establish and maintain the daily working routine (and that is where the officer should mostly stay out of the NCO's way, with the notable exception being tactical decisions).


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## Armymedic

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> I probably missed the most recent decision on platoon command (there was a lot of discussion the past few years over whether a HCA captain or senior medical officer - MO - should command the medical platoon), but my recollection of the "template" roles for a HCA in a field ambulance is:
> 
> 1) Platoon 2I/C
> 2) Medical Company 2I/C
> 3) Ambulance Company 2I/C and OC
> 4) Field Ambulance 2I/C (DCO) and staff officers (Operations, Adjutant)
> 
> I may very well be mistaken about (1).
> 
> "Reconnaissance, liaison, and administration (in the logistical sense)" is a good summary of the duties of a HCA at the platoon level.
> 
> I have never actually seen a detailed establishment of a field hospital; I suppose HCAs in that unit would only fill 2I/C and staff positions. By extension, in the higher formation and joint medical units and HQs I would expect to find HCAs populating 2I/C and staff roles and commanding evacuation-oriented (ie. ambulance) resources, and MOs commanding and occupying functional positions in treatment-oriented resources.
> 
> Normally a MO is expected to command a medical company and field ambulance. Why? Because a MO should have the best knowledge base from which to conduct a medical estimate. (I do believe any other medical branch officer can, through self-study, acquire sufficient knowledge of the appropriate general medical factors to fill those command roles.)



Due to the shortages of MO's, HCA's are employed in most leadership positions with a Fd Ambs, minus those that have to specifically filled by MO's, or Pharmacists.


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## Fraser.g

And yet there is a profound HCA shortage that the majority of RSS positions are being back filed by reservists on Class B. If the Regular Force can not even give one officer to each Reserve unit then what is the hope of maintaining any congruity with the regular force?


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## HCA

It is very strange isn't it. I remember so many different RSS O's over the last two decades and then nothing for the last two years. I will have to remember to ask the higher ups some time about when they foresee this deficiency fixed.


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## Born2Fly

RSS?


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## Armymedic

RN PRN said:
			
		

> And yet there is a profound HCA shortage that the majority of RSS positions are being back filed by reservists on Class B. If the Regular Force can not even give one officer to each Reserve unit then what is the hope of maintaining any congruity with the regular force?



Did I say we had enough to fill EVERY position. We have company's on paper as platoons because we don't have enough snr nco and officers to fill the positions.


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## Fraser.g

Born to Fly,

RSS stands for Regular Support Staff. They are the Regular force members who are posted to a reserve unit to assist them in training.

Army Medic,

Heck we have platoons and companies that are pretending to be Field Ambulances in the reserves. What I gathered in your earlier post was that all command positions should be filled by HCAs. MOs and NOs should be only clinical positons with a couple of exceptions that you mentioned. I would submit that it would be an incredible waste of manpower to restrict the comand ability of NOs that wish to be in comand positons and have the courses to execute those postions. 
Comand is not for everyone. I have met several NOs who could not lead a group to save their lives and unfortunately I have met Several HCAs that I can say the same for.


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## dwyer.sd

You have to look at what DGHS has done to the branch.  Buy seperating, they now have to conduct all their own recruiting and training, something they are not yet accepting.  The problems do stem from within DGHS not just the Reg For.


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## Brad Sallows

Not exactly..."pay for all of" is not the same as "conduct all of".


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## Armymedic

Brad...Exactly....money, money, money.

The Health services site used to have direct links to career explinations, but now they just link to recruiting.


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## medicineman

Just to add my 2 cents worth (Cdn), HCA's also work as HQ staff officers - they deal with tracking/regulating of patients, liaise with other militaries for piggybacking care and with receiving healthcare providers in countries other than Canada while on deployments.

MM


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## GINge!

Just thought I would use this thread to say hello again of sorts. I am now an HCA in training on the CHSM course at CFMSS.


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## hockeysgal

What is it exactly that reserve HCA's do when they go into their unit, or on weekend exercises?


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## Brad Sallows

1) Paperwork - unit administration.
2) Man the CP.


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## MED_BCMC

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> 1) Paperwork - unit administration.
> 2) Man the CP.



... and everything else that is not medical.


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## hockeysgal

OK so maybe the question was a little vague. 
 A little more background: I had in the past thought about changing trades and HCA was one I was considering.  Now I have decided to wait, and get a bit more experience in my own trade before deciding if I want to stick with it.  So maybe a better question would be:  How do the tasks of an HCA differ to other trades, say infantry?


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## MED_BCMC

In garrison, the duties are very simliar. HCAs (and subsquently, HSOs) are normally utilised by the local CBG to do the Med Plans for their exercises. Other than that...

In the Res F, HCA / HSOs can occupy the CO, DCO, Adjutant, Med Coy Comd, Amb Coy Comd, Platoon Commanders and Platoon 2IC positions. Occasionally, these positions will be filled by MO/NOs in the absence of trained HCAs. 

Any other questions. Ask away.


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## Fraser.g

MED_BCMC said:
			
		

> these positions will be filled by MO/NOs in the absence of trained HCAs.
> 
> Any other questions. Ask away.



Or more accurately, by MOs and NOs that have the same training as the res HCA. ;D


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## MED_BCMC

RN PRN said:
			
		

> Or more accurately, by MOs and NOs that have the same training as the res HCA. ;D



I would disagree. If there are trained HCAs, as well as MO/NOs, then the MO/NOs should be filling positions that where they would be better able to use their professional skills. It is only in the absence of HCAs that MO/NOs should be going out of their trade. My 2 cents.


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## Donut

Excuse my ignorance here, but what other positions are there?  You've listed just about every officer position in a med coy.  Fd Amb.

Where do the clinician officers sit, then?

DF


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## MED_BCMC

ParaMedTech said:
			
		

> Excuse my ignorance here, but what other positions are there?   You've listed just about every officer position in a med coy.   Fd Amb.
> 
> Where do the clinician officers sit, then?
> 
> DF



If a Res Fd Amb had a full compliment of trained HCAs, the MO/NOs would be filling the line serials for MO/NOs. They would basically be a training cadre (medical instruction, evaluation, etc). Realistically, as RN PRN pointed out, Nursing Officers and Medical officers will often occupy any of the previously mentioned positions, simply because there are no trained HCAs.

BCMC


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## Brad Sallows

In a res Fd Amb, as with pretty much every res unit, ultimately the officers will work wherever the CO requires them to and where the CO believes the officers will gain necessary work experience.


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## Leo791989

Hello
I called my recruiting centre to inquire about HCA officer trade and they told me that I can apply as a ROTP HCA officer even if I am doing my BSc in Geography. Is that true? I thought you needed BA or BCom according to the website.
Also, is there a need/shortage of Health Care Administrators??
Thank You


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## Armymedic

Yes, on both and...

SEARCH.


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## Leo791989

Armymedic thanks for the info but when I searched I couldn't find any info on BSc Geography being accepted for ROTP HCA. And I couldn't find anywhere about the need/shortage for HCA's within CF.
Thanks


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## medicineman

I've run into alot of HCA's with different degrees - in the end, you do a program through Ryerson Universtiy in Health Care Admin as part of your MOC training.  Seeing as alot of HCA's end up there as they are reclassified for whatever reason from other MOC's, you can imagine the vairety of education some f these people have.

Hope that helps.

MM


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## Armymedic

Leo791989, 

Sorry didn't mean to come off so strong. But keep asking those questions to the recruiters, look at the recruiting site etc, beyond the borders of this site.


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## GINge!

Leo, its not that a BSc(geo) is unacceptable, its just that you will be competing against those who have BAdm, BComm, and even MBA & MHA degrees plus many have prior mil experience. 

As an aside, will the CF still take you as ROTP for the balance of your degree? The reason I ask is, a few years ago, the preferred ROTP path was via The RMC and upon entry, you had to restart your undergrad from year-1.


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## Sig_Des

One HCA I know in particular remusted there from the Arty....his degree was in Poly Sci.... just goes to show...


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## medaid

Well... in the MO.... they take almost any degree, I mean mine's not even remotely health related...it's Criminology


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## quebecrunner

Is there someone who know if i will be able to skip basic field if i join reg forces? I've done the CAP (reg force) and the BCT, with 1.5 year full time cl B. 

Thanks  ;D


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## HCA123

How long have you been working as an HCA? The CAP wouldn't write of the basic field because of the medical aspects of the Basic Health Services Field Course - as I'm sure GINge will have some input here (ex-combat arms officer - reg force - who should have, but didn't get the write-off). If you can put together a package showing you have covered the medical aspects (setting up/siting UMS's, etc) - then you might have a chance. If you need a list of EO's and PO's, I can send you a PLA (prior learning assessment) that was done a couple of years ago by someone else that was accepted.


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## GINge!

This is still a bit of a tender point with me HCA123! My PLA was turned down due to a lack of 'medical' trg, despite CFRG , the CM, and CFMSS supporting the PLA; it was rejected by Ottawa (24 hours before I departed for BHCA..grrr...repack!)

Of the 20-odd days of Basic Fd Trg, I found approximately 2 contained new material. These could have easily been accomplished through correspondance as they were strictly written assignments, but I digress. 

If you want, I will email you my PLA application and you can feel free to use it as a guide. The fact that you have prior med exposure in a Res Fd Amb may indeed grant you a waiver. If you have done CAP, I think that most of the material on BFHSC will be a waste of your time. Think platoon (section really) orders, and off-loading an MLVW and setting up a tent. Repeat nine times. The medical estimate may be new to you though. The course is in desparate need of a revamp, and I have no idea why HCA are not required to attend CAP to begin with. 

That being said, I thoroughly enjoyed my time on the BFHSC; I found it a very easy course, and it's always good to see how your peers function in a field environment. There is also significant social aspect attached to the course which I don't think was unique to my serial. Your previous experiences on CAP and the Fd Amb will be an asset to your coursemates. If you can spare 3 weeks out of your summer, then I'd recommend you go on the course.


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## dapaterson

To the unenlightened (like me) there's a challenge in understanding the difference between these two support trades - Health Care Administrator and Health Services Operations.

And, perhaps more interestingly, skimming the occupational specification for HSO, it reads suspiciously like a subset of the Log officer occupation - but with "H Svcs" tacked on to everything - so it's not HR management, it's H Svcs HR Management.

Question:  Is there truly a need for those two as stand-alone occupations, or could they be part of the Log O family, with specialty training for any H Svcs specific issues?


(And where's that can of worms icon?)


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## RandyL

I really don't know anything about what your asking , but I found this.  :nod: Not sure if it will work, don't really know how to post links. 

http://hazel8500.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/can-o-worms.gif


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## Blackadder1916

Though no longer an HCA or HSO (or even an MAO for those who remember when), I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.  And was on the OA board for the HCA occupation in the 80s when HSO was first proposed.

The main difference (someone currently serving can correct me if things have changed) is that HCAs are primarily junior officers involved in the adm and ops of providing health services- HSOs are senior officers (who could come from any of the medical branch  MOCs less physicians).

As for the age old question why it couldn't be a sub-specialty for LOG (or PADM when they wanted it, or RCASC when they wanted it . . . ) - my simple answer is "mind-set".  In your LOG world right now (judging from some posts I've seen on this means) there are definite differences in training and employment (and desired mind-set) of LOG officers in the army and navy.  Is it very common to see a new logistician in navy uniform in a svc bn or someone in greens on board a ship?  While many may think that the medical world is very full of itself and parochial (we are but so is our civilian counterpart) it also requires specific focus.  Additionally, to use a hackneyed excuse, there would be a problem with the Geneva Convention if medical units were not commanded by medical branch officers.


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## medaid

HCA = OCdt - Captain
HSO = Maj - Gen (but very unlikely beyond Col, as H Svc branch is always commanded by MOs)

It would never work because the HCA is your clinic manager, trg coordinator, policy enforcer and platoon commanders.
All of the above jobs cannot be performed by a LOG O, just like INT cannot be properly done by CBT Arms Officers. You are not trained in that capacity, and you are not versed in the happenings within a Medical Platoons. Sure anyone can command a platoon, but I sure as hell wouldn't be able to swing a platoon in a Coy advance to contact, because that's not my job. My job's to make sure that when you send back 9 liners I have my team GTG to receive casualties.

I make sure my supplies and equipments good to go and all my MedTechs are also good to go. Give a med pl to an Infantry guy he can probably run it pretty well, but its the intricate details of the trade he won't have.

Most importantly as an HCA/HSO you are a non combatant under the GC. Giving command of medical pers to NON medical officers would be a nightmare. Some might make them into temp infanteers and lead them over the berm.
Think of HCAs as the command part of the H Svc as most NO/MO do NOT command in the true sense of leadership. They supervise.


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## medicineman

MedTech said:
			
		

> HCA = OCdt - Captain
> HSO = Maj - Gen (but very unlikely beyond Col, as H Svc branch is always commanded by MOs)



Psst - not always true.  Gen Mathieu was an HSO when she was the DGHS and we had only a Surgeon Colonel (Col Cameron) instead of Surgeon General (like now with Commodore Jung and Gen Jaeger previously).

MM


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## medaid

Oh snap you're right! Thanks MM! 

I apologize for my mistake ladies and gents.


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## dapaterson

Of course, we've played fast and loose with the Geneva Conventions for a number of years.  The HCC was a legitimate military target for the past several years, after the brain trust at CFSU(O) installed 33 CBG HQ in the building...


I'm still not entirely convinced that the Heath administration function couldn't be filled by a sub-occupation of the Log branch; the GC issues could be addressed as could the training - there are tremendous overlaps.

Or, at the very least, the training could be better aligned and shared, vice maintaining seperate empires across the base from each other in Borden.


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## Blackadder1916

MedTech said:
			
		

> HCA = OCdt - Captain
> HSO = Maj - Gen (but very unlikely beyond Col, as H Svc branch is always commanded by MOs)
> 
> It would never work because the HCA is your clinic manager, trg coordinator, policy enforcer and platoon commanders.
> All of the above jobs cannot be performed by a LOG O, just like INT cannot be properly done by CBT Arms Officers. You are not trained in that capacity,
> and you are not versed in the happenings within a Medical Platoons. Sure anyone can command a platoon, but I sure as hell wouldn't be able to swing a platoon in a Coy advance to contact, because that's not my job. My job's to make sure that when you send back 9 liners I have my team GTG to receive casualties.
> 
> I make sure my supplies and equipments good to go and all my MedTechs are also good to go. Give a med pl to an Infantry guy he can probably run it pretty well, but its the intricate details of the trade he won't have.
> 
> Most importantly as an HCA/HSO you are a non combatant under the GC. Giving command of medical pers to NON medical officers would be a nightmare. Some might make them into temp infanteers and lead them over the berm.
> Think of HCAs as the command part of the H Svc as most NO/MO do NOT command in the true sense of leadership. They supervise.



I was tempted to suggest that you"stay within your lanes" because most of your post was emotional babbling, but on reflection about your limited exposure to the complete range of an HCA/HSO's varied employment during a full (Reg Force) career, you do make one valid point - "anyone can command a platoon".

Commanding a medical platoon is not rocket science.  An HCA in such a position will rarely do anything clinical, so there should (in the minds of those LOG and other types wanting to encroach) be no impediment to opening it up to a non-medical capbadge.  With minimal additional training on the specifics of providing HSS anyone already trained as a pl comd should have no difficulty.  The same could be said of Capt/Lt administrative (HR?) positions - yet we don't have LOG types saying they should be the adjutants in infantry bns.  Why is that?  Is my sarcasm showing?

While not as common in the reserves, at one time many HCAs were CTs from other MOCs; often they went to their first posting prior to any medical branch training (often that was to a fd amb or RSS) and had no difficulty with their duties.  But that, like all initial postings in a new occupation, is a learning experience.

While there may seem to be little downside to a LOG filling an administrative (or operational) position in a medical establishment what would his next posting be?  Would he stay exclusively in the medical world or would he be moved at the whim of the LOG career manager?  What guarantee would there be that he would gain experience in the nuances needed for a senior administrative position in HSS?   And nuances there are.  There were things I learned through experience (medical specific) in my first posting as a MAO-HCA to the BHosp in Edmonton; some of that was actually helpful when I next went to to a staff position at SURGEN (though some experience as a LOG might have been helpful since one of my secondary functions was as a LCMM), and so on and so on.


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## Gunner98

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> While there may seem to be little downside to a LOG filling an administrative (or operational) position in a medical establishment what would his next posting be?  Would he stay exclusively in the medical world or would he be moved at the whim of the LOG career manager?  What guarantee would there be that he would gain experience in the nuances needed for a senior administrative position in HSS?   And nuances there are.  There were things I learned through experience (medical specific) in my first posting as a MAO-HCA to the BHosp in Edmonton; some of that was actually helpful when I next went to to a staff position at SURGEN (though some experience as a LOG might have been helpful since one of my secondary functions was as a LCMM), and so on and so on.



After spending 14 years an Artillery Officer and the last 11 as a HCA/HSO, I can tell you these considerations are not nuances or small matters.  Working with MOs, Nurses, Pharm Os is not a simple task.  Most medical units have a Log O that takes care of the Supply/Log side of the unit, they have little patience for the clinical leaders within the unit lines.  

Therefore, it is more about learning when something is deemed critical and a surge (not extra electricity) is required in a medical facility to accommodate expected casualties resulting from a Major Medical Incident or a mass casualty, that lives depend on scarce equipment/resources and flexible priorities.  When lives hang in the balance there isn't time to bring someone up to speed on the terminology beyond the content of a 9-liner. 

In the manner that the Army has considered and rejected having a General Purpose Officer who is Infantry first and has sub-specialties, the idea of the Fd Amb as a company within Svc Bns has not been realized.  

The HSO occupation also takes people from clinical fields (Pharm, Physio, Nurses) and places them in non-clinical admin and leadership roles.  Who would mentor these people if there were no HCAs.  The in and out logistics officers from the Log empire could eliminate the subtleties in the language that save lives, although one shovel or pick fits all, one surgical saw or blade is the difference between paralysis and sensation.

If the Log empire builders are looking to conquer, it should look elsewhere; our soldiers deserve a knowledgeable, compassionate health care admin or health services operations officer not a crusty, ignorant patient transport company commander.


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## nick_the_guy

I've been asking questions about joining the reserves as a logistics officer but I am also interested in joining as an HCA, since it's congruent with my business background. I'll be meeting with a recruiting sergeant at my local field ambulance this week but would like to do some prep work before. Can anyone tell me what is the DP1 training for an HCA in the reserves?

I know that there is the basic officer training component: BMQ, BOTP (or whatever it is called now) and CAP, since health services in the reserves run under the Army banner. However, I can't find any information about the occupational training. For the regular force, an HCA needs to earn a health care management certificate from Ryerson and then get on-the-job training in a civilian setting and in the field. Is it the same for a reservist? More importantly, what is the time commitment to complete the HCA reserve occupational training? (Fingers crossed that it can be done in 2 week modules like a logistics officer.)


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## Staff Weenie

Nick - I'll have some info for you in a few days, but feel free to PM me with any questions you may ever have about the HCA occupation in the Res F.


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## nick_the_guy

Thanks, I'll definitely follow up with you. I did speak to the local field ambulance recruiter, he steered me more towards logistics as I didn't currently work at a hospital nor have any knowledge of stuff like pharmaceuticals. Still, I'd like to know more about the HCA position, from a reserves perspective.

One interesting point that he mentioned was that for officers in the medical service, they were no longer attached to the army and did not have to do CAP. We didn't get into details but he mentioned that there may have been some new phased/modular training for the medical service.


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## Staff Weenie

Well, the info I have, based upon last year's course dates is:

Basic Field Health Services Course:
Mod I:  20 Jun - 08 Jul
Mod II:  11 Jul - 22 Jul

Basic HCA 25 Jul - 04 Aug

As for the occupation itself, I will tell you that based upon my 20 yrs of experience, there is almost nothing from a civilian Health Care Management position that is relevant to Res F HCAs. In the Res F Fd Ambs, we focus on operations, not on in-garrison clinical care.  In fact, over the years, the absolute best HCAs I've been privileged to learn from, never had this background.

Would having a strong bio-sci background help? Possibly, but that's not a guarantee either. You're not there to do patient care as an HCA - you're there to ensure that the mission is successful. There are clinicians who will handle the patient care - you make sure that they have everything they need to carry out their duties, be it equipment, training, funding, vehicles, etc.

I'm not certain about the CAP issue - but I will tell you that getting rid of it for HCAs would be a big mistake! We support the other environments, but primarily the Army. We're also the one Officer occupation in the Health Services that must understand how the Army operates, and be able to ensure that support can be given in any type of operational environment.


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## nick_the_guy

Thanks Staff Weenie. High Flyer has also offered me some info on the HCA position. It's interesting that you've found that there is a disconnect between military and civilian HCA functions. Would it be correct to assume the reverse, if civilian HCA is not relevant to the military HCA position, then military HCA training is not relevant to in a civilian context?


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## seawolf

Hey,

I will hopefully be adding HCA to my application (LogO). I have a few questions.

My file manager said HCA is a really good choice and fits my backgroup very well, just like LogO does. I have a B.Comm Combined Honours Business and Economics and a post graduate certificate in HR Management, plus 5+ years related work experience.

1. Is HCA kind of the LogO of the Medical Branch? Keep the doctors, nurses and Med Tech's stocked with what they need, and do the mojo in the background to make sure the mission is successful?

2. Is there an immediate promotion to Lt after BMOQ? I'm a little confused by the video on the forces website and some info I have read.

3. Any other info on HCA you want to give me would be great.

Thanks,

Mike


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## Armymedic

There are a couple HCAs on the boards to provide more details.

HCAs are not the "Log O" of the medical branch. That role is filled by Pharmacy Officers AKA pharmacists.

Health Care Admintration Officers are what the name suggests. They are the non-clinician entity which assist in the provision of health care by being the experts in areas other than those involving direct patient contact. HCAs are most often employed as platoon commanders, tng officers, clinic managers, and other staff officer roles.

Like I said in the opening, there are HCAs on the boards (MedCorps being the most experienced)who can answer more detailed questions.


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## Blackadder1916

The medical world (actually everything in the military) runs on paper (or its present-day digital equivalent).  In the medical branch, most of that paper shuffling is done by HCAs.  It is expected that, because of their education, training and experience, they become the experts.  And to be brutally honest, the doctors often don't want to soil their hands with the mundane (even if you don't discount the fact that it is not cost effective to have clinicians do those tasks).  Newly minted HCAs (especially if they don't come into the branch the more traditional, old-fashioned way of CFR and OT) are the SLJOs of the CFMS.

MedCorps will probably be along to provide a more up-to-date tale of opportunities for HCAs.  However, during my time (I am retired from the CF) as an HCA, I had a number of interesting and challenging jobs that involved command, staff, administrative and financial tasks (and one job that overlapped into the logistics world) .  Did some of this mirror what Log Os do?  Yes, but it could be said the same about any officer of any classification (especially in field force units).

You may find that your education and work experience (especially if it is, as it appears, to be very HR centric) will not be directly relatable to HR functions in the CF as most of those processes are centrally done in a very, very large organization.

Yes, all HCAs start out as Lieutenants.  It's not a big deal, there are no Second Lieutenants in the (Reg Force) CFMS.


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## seawolf

Thanks for the help and tips guys.

immediate promotion to Lt is a decent bonus/advantage of the trade. According to the pay scale on forces.ca that's about $300/month right away. Nothing to shake a stick at.


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## HCA123

During the recruiting process I too wrestled with going LOG O vs HCA. At the end of the day I ended up going HCA and am happy I did given my interests. If you have specific questions, feel free to drop me a PM, I've done a little bit of everything over the last few years (Field Ambulance, Clinic, overseas and now a posting to the US).


----------



## MedCorps

Just to fill out the above comments a little. 

HCAs exist in the Regular Force from the rank of Lt to Major.  At the rank of Major they are eligible to complete for Voluntary Occupational Transfer to the Health Services Operations (HSO) Officer trade.  In fact, most of the HSOs are ex-HCAs.  

HCAs work in four main environments:  

1) Clinics 
2) Field Units 
3) Training Establishments  
4) HQ Staffs

In clinics they are the experts in health care administration as their name would imply. This includes working in junior leadership positions and dealing with human resources, business planning, finance, civilian labour relations, infrastructure, medical records, etc. 

In field units (field ambulances / the Field Hospital) they often work as platoon commanders, company 2ICs, occasionally company commanders, operations officer, adjutant, admission & discharge officer, liaison officers,  and command post watch officers. They lead the field force at the platoon and company level. 

In the Training Establishments they work as instructors teaching most of the topics above, as standards officers, and as Training Establishment key staff such as the service support officer, operations officer, adjutant, and company 2ICs.  

On HQ staffs they work in the field of medical regulating, operations and planning, research, administration & finance, desk officers, project officers, executive assistants / staff officers to Directors / Aide de Camp, and as general staff officers in all areas.

Lots of people around here with HCA experience / have worked with HCAs.  It is an interesting field, much different than the Log O occupation, IMHO. 

Cheers, 

MC


----------



## dimsum

Just for curiosity's sake, what are the civilian prospects for HCAs?  Is there a civilian equivalent (bearing in mind that my medical knowledge extends to pretty much House Season 1)?


----------



## MedCorps

There are a number of civilian HCA positions in civilian hospitals / the civilian health care system. They range from people working in hospital billing, records, accreditation, human resources, marketing / donor coordination, emergency management, infrastructure, planning, quality improvement departments to those who are managers, VPs and CEOs.  Most have a Master in Health Administration (MHA) or an MBA with a health focus. Many also have the Certified Health Executive (CHE) designation that is offered by the Canadian College of Health Leaders.   

Some work in NGO / IGOs to keep the organization running.  

Some work in the civilian government at places like Health Canada or the Public Health Agency of Canada. Some work in the Provincial health care offices, some work in public health units or other health organizations like Community Care Access Centres or the Canadian Mental Health Association doing things like administration, policy, project management, team leaders, research, etc, etc. 

MC


----------



## seawolf

Man,

So much help! Thanks.

Seems like a really interesting trade. Don't know why I didn't look into it more before a week or so ago. Hopefully my medical file ever comes back from the RMO so I can interview for HCA and add it to my application along with LogO which is already there.

- Mike


----------



## seawolf

Have an update interview next Tuesday to add HCA to my file along with LogO. I was merited for LogO last week.

Thanks for all the info.


----------



## seawolf

Never ended up having my interview for HCA back in Sept, due to trade closing and unsure if it would re-open.


Well its open now for DEO and I have an interview on Monday.

Thanks again for all the info. Any final tidbits or facts i should bring up about HCA to wow the MCC?


One question - as an HCA - and say acting as a platoon commander in a field unit - are you commanding all the doctors and nurses, medtechs, etc? Who works under HCA's?


----------



## MedCorps

If you are the Pl Comd  / Coy Comd / Clinic CO you command whoever is placed under your command. Command is command. At the Platoon level this is mostly Med Techs and the odd Physician Assistant as your Platoon WO. Sometimes it might also have a Medical Officer in the mix.  Sometimes it is even the odd person from outside the Health Service like MSE Ops, RMS Clk, one of the various EME Techs, Supply Techs, Sig Ops (especially in the place like the Field Hospital). 

For instance, if you were in a (doctrinal) Advanced Surgical Centre (ASC) as the Senior Admissions and Discharge Officer (Officer in Charge of the ASC HQ Section) as a Captain you would have a Jr HCA (who might be the same rank as you), a Sgt Med Tech, RMS Clk x 2, Med Tech x 2, and Sig Ops x2 working for you.  

As you move up, if you become a Company Commander or a Clinic CO, you could be in change of a whole range of CF Medical Service Officers (MO/NO/Pharm O/Physio Therapy O/Social Work O and NCMs, as well as civilian public servants and contractors under your command.  

Good luck on the interview.  

MC


----------



## seawolf

Thanks for the quick response. 

Exactly what I needed!

And thank you.


----------



## seawolf

Had the interview this morning for HCA. Went great and I am merit listed. 

Thanks for the help.

Mike


----------



## seawolf

New question:

As an HCA does it really matter what colour your uniform is? I assume Air force HCA's are on army bases and Army HCA's are stationed to Navy bases, etc??

Do all HCA's do CAP or whatever it is called now?

Thanks again,

Mike


----------



## MedCorps

Uniform does not matter. It is really purple and you can go anywhere with any uniform.  

HCA's no longer do the CAP.  Sadly.  

MC


----------



## seawolf

Thanks again MC!


----------



## Blackadder1916

MedCorps said:
			
		

> . . . . .
> 
> HCA's no longer do the CAP.  Sadly.



How does the occupation view itself today?

In years (long?) past the generation of HCAs (and their previous iterations) was primarily from within the CF (or the RCN, the Cdn Army and, to a lesser extent, the RCAF when they were separate services).  Almost everyone brought previous military or naval experience to the table whether they were CFR (at one time the main HCA generation program), OT (mostly from older and sometimes slightly broken combat arms types), UTPM or, if going back to separate service days, OCTP (in the old Cdn Army this was the primary commissioning plan for HCAs).  While these individuals had varying degrees of success (from the average to the outstanding) in their previous occupations they usually knew how the system worked outside the sometimes rather narrow viewpoint of the medical world and it was this knowledge that made them important.

I am well aware that an undergraduate degreed officer corps is now the goal, but (mainly from viewing topics on this site) I've gained the impression that HCA generation is these days focused more on acquiring individuals who have formal post-secondary education and that previous military experience at the officer or Snr NCO level is of secondary importance or maybe not even a consideration.

Am I off the mark here? Has the HCA of old, the unwashed professional soldier of the CFMS been replaced by a theory laden but inexperienced business graduate?  Is there adequate development of newly minted officers such that the branch can forego the already proven knowledge and skill base of CFRs and OTs?  I think back to my first posting as an HCA MAO-HCA.  It was an AIRCOM base hospital, busy enough for its size and had the added challenge of an operational tasking (MAJAID).  Like most BHosps of the time, there wasn't great depth of military experience among the majority of officers (primarily doctors and nurses).  As the sole HCA in the unit, I was usually the one that was expected to input the "military flavour" to our operation.  I was not unique among my MAO/HCA coursemates.  A lot of them also went to (sole HCA) base or RSS postings, some even went directly into staff postions.  Of course they (we) all had years of military experience (in the ranks and/or another officer classification) behind us.


----------



## ModlrMike

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Has the HCA of old, the unwashed professional soldier of the CFMS been replaced by a theory laden but inexperienced business graduate?



Yes



> Is there adequate development of newly minted officers such that the branch can forego the already proven knowledge and skill base of CFRs and OTs?



No



> I think back to my first posting as an HCA MAO-HCA.  It was an AIRCOM base hospital, busy enough for its size and had the added challenge of an operational tasking (MAJAID).  Like most BHosps of the time, there wasn't great depth of military experience among the majority of officers (primarily doctors and nurses).  As the sole HCA in the unit, I was usually the one that was expected to input the "military flavour" to our operation.  I was not unique among my MAO/HCA coursemates.  A lot of them also went to (sole HCA) base or RSS postings, some even went directly into staff postions.  Of course they (we) all had years of military experience (in the ranks and/or another officer classification) behind us.



Let me relate and example from 2006: in my unit we had 8 HCAs. One OT, no CFR, and 7 degreed officers - none of whom had commerce or admin as their area of study. Of the lot, I would say the OT was probably the best all round officer and HCA.


----------



## MedCorps

Blackadder, 

Because of the movement afoot to move toward the "civilian standard" (Accreditation Canada) within garrison clinics (the hospital are essentially gone) there has been pressure to "professionalize" the HCA MOS to bring it in line with civilian health care administrators. This is partially our own doing and partially a response to reports from the the Auditor General and Chief of Review Services.  

This has resulted in trying to recruit officers who have degrees in commerce, business, finance, health care management, industrial relations, etc, etc. For a while it was "any degree"... now it is much more selective for better or worse.  They are also expected as part of their basic HCA training to do a civilian health care management certificate (currently offered by the Canadian Healthcare Association as contracted training) and as they move toward the rank of Major and clinic command gain certification as a health care executive (CHE) with the Canadian College of Health Leaders (CCHL).  

See here: http://www.cchl-ccls.ca/default1.asp and here: http://www.cchl-ccls.ca/default_certification.asp?active_page_id=1727 to get a feel for these things.  

This has resulting in a new batch of young, bright, officers who are academically (theory) trained.  In the last batch of HCAs we even had 2-3 subalterns with MBAs.  It leaves a real gap in the skills we used to get with OT / UTPNCM / CFR / SCP, etc especially on the field side of the house where they have no experience in this area other then what they have gained via the CF training system.  HCAs are still being used as Platoon Commanders / Operations Officers / Adjutants / etc in field units  and other such field tasks including RSS Officers.  This has posed a bit of a challenge to say the least. 

For FY 12/13 the target blend was 67% Direct Entry Officers, 20% Occupational Transfers - Officers, and 23% UTPNCM.  CFR is almost unheard of now in the CFMS/CFDS.  We have a few SCP but they are far and few between and there does not seem to be a stomach for this commissioning plan. 

There are some things being done to try and sort this out (despite the fact that attending Common Army Phase - CAP would sort out some of these problems).  This has included a large revision of the Basic HCA Course and the replacement of the Basic Field Health Services Course with the Health Services Operations and Staff Officer Course which will be happening in near future it is rumoured.  I am still not sure it will fix all the problems, but it is a step in the right direction. 

MC


----------



## medic45

Hello,

Is anyone able to list the current course progression for reserve HCA as of summer 2015?  I have been in touch with a recruiter but there seems to be a bit of confusion.  Besides second language training, what is the training delta between regular and reserve HCA officers?  Thanks.


----------



## GINge!

Best bet is to contact your local reserve Fd Amb and speak to a HCA there who has recently gone through trg. 

My info is a few years old, so may be out of date. PRes HCA had to do Common Army Phase (CAP) in Gagetown. I thought this was excellent, and regularly resulted in PRes HCA with a better grasp of leadership and mil skills than their RegF counterparts who were exempt CAP. There are many reg F HCA who would not be in uniform today if they had to complete CAP...but it was recognized as a double standard for the reservists, so I'm not sure if it is still a requirement. 

Reg F will also do Basic HCA (not sure if PRes do this, but I can find out if you are still interested). Then they will do the newish Health Services Operations Staff Officer Course (HSOSOC). Not to be confused with the similarly named Health Services Operations Course, which is for HSO Maj. 

There are no specific gateway trg quals between HCA Lt - Maj, though officers are encouraged to take AJOS, ATOC, and AOC, though the mosid only gets a couple seats a year on that course.


----------



## MedCorps

Res F HCA's also do not complete the certificate in Health Services Management that is currently offered to the Reg F HCA's by the Canadian Hospital Association as part of their Developmental Period 1. 

The best things to do, as mentioned, is call the local Res Fd Amb and ask to speak with an HCA.  

Good luck, 

MC


----------



## medic45

Thanks. So far looking like CAP is not required.


----------



## GINge!

You're correct  - CAP was dropped a couple years ago. You will have to do the BHCA and HSOSOC. They used to run them back to back in the summer for reservists. 

Reg F HCA are expected (but not mandated) to complete AJOSQ and ATOC. Some are selected for AOC, some for AMEDD (USA). There really isn't a lot of mandatory trg for HCA until they are promoted Maj and merit listed for O/T to HSO, after which they complete the HSO course in Borden. 

There are still opportunities for deployment, with HCA Capt in Kuwait and Sierra Leone,  those its nowhere near the op temp of the Afg days.


----------



## JLeonardSmith

Hi, new to the blog but have read a considerable amount regarding different entry plans but have yet to see my situation. I'm not naive to think my situation is specifically unique however it may be slightly different then others. 

Here it goes:

I have recently applied to the CAF and have been processed rather quickly;however, there is a slight speed bump that I am looking to get over. The trades I applied for are: IntO(DEO), HCA(ROTP), Pilot (DEO) ( in that order).

I was told IntO had completed it's hiring process already for this upcoming year 2015 and would not open any further positions until January of 2016. This lead my file to get processed under my second option HCA (ROTP). This process has moved very quickly and it has made me rethink my entire status on joining through ROTP. 

I am a recent graduate of Bishop's University where I received a BA History/Religion. I also am currently attending the University of Victoria in an attempt to finish a second degree BA Sociology. I am really interested in joining the CAF (for a multitude of reason that I don't really want to get into here) however; I would like to know if ROTP i(e: doing another 4 years of university) is really the best way of joining as an HCA. I understand that there are programs such as: Health Care Administration Post Graduate Certificates that are offered throughout different institutions in Canada. That are 2-3 year programs. Would one of these certificates supplement the lack of a Health Care Degree as it covers all the administrative and HR requirements. If someone could shine some light on this subject for me it would be a great help as my offer for ROTP should be in within the next few days and I would like to make the best decision while having all the intel.  Thanks in advance.


----------



## Master Corporal Steven

Good day JLeonardSmith, 

Through your considerable amount of reading I'm sure that you read the read first post regarding the rules for posting questions on this form specifically that we do not answer questions on in progress applications as more accurate answers can be given by the recruiting centre processing your application because they have your information. That being said I will elaborate on some of the available options to you to become a Health Care Administrator (HCA)

*Health Care Administer (HCA)*

Direct Entry Officer (DEO) 

 * Ideal Education *

Master’s degree in:

o Health Care Admin;
o Business Admin; or
o Human Resource Management

Or

Undergraduate degree with a Major in:
o Health Care Admin;
o Business Admin; or
o Human Resource Management

*Acceptable*

Any undergraduate degree with a Minor
in:
o Health Care Admin;
o Business Admin;
o Human Resource Management or
related Health Care fields

Occupational Transfer (OT) (From one military Occupation to HCA)

*Ideal*

Master’s degree in:
o Health Care Admin;
o Business Admin; or
o Human Resource Management

Or

Undergraduate degree with a Major in:
o Health Care Admin;
o Business Admin; or
o Human Resource Management

*Acceptable
*

Any undergraduate degree with a Minor
in:

o Health Care Admin;
o Business Admin;
o Human Resource Management or
related Health Care fields; or
o others as designated by the MOSID
Advisor on a case-by-case basis


Component Transfer (CT) (From NCM to Officer) 

*Ideal*

Master’s degree in:

o Health Care Admin;
o Business Admin; or
o Human Resource Management, or

Undergraduate degree with a Major in:

o Health Care Admin;
o Business Admin; or
o Human Resource Management

*Acceptable*

Any undergraduate degree with a Minor
in:

o Health Care Admin;
o Business Admin;
o Human Resource Management or
related Health Care fields

Regular Officer Training Plan (ROTP) (Paid Education)

Any degree with Major or Minor in:

o Health Care Admin;
o Business Admin;
o Human Resource Management or
related Health Care fields


----------



## Shmack

Hello, I came to the forum to find information about an occupational transfer from PRes Med A into a PRes HCA. I have found other threads where people ask about joining as an HCA which does not apply to me (unless I release to re-enlist. Not my plan). 

My unit's situation is a bit strange as it is a detachment, of a detachment, of a unit in another province... All of the HCA's I know of are in that other province. Our det is growing and suffers from a lack of officers. Would it be reasonable to say that the unit needs an HCA?

I have recently finished a BA in Archaeology and I doubt that it would be useful for considering me to become an HCA. Who would be the best bet for getting more information: my CO, the unit CO, or one of the HCA's?


----------



## mariomike

Shmack said:
			
		

> Our det is growing and suffers from a lack of officers.



You may find these discussions of interest.

NCM to Officer,

https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3Aarmy.ca+ncm+to+officer&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=cuq8Vue3A6aC8Qf_3LHADQ&gws_rd=ssl#


----------



## Staff Weenie

Archaeology certainly isn't the preferred degree for HCA - but it is not necessarily a showstopper. BTW - my first degree was History, and I started a second one in Archaeology before doing the MA in War Studies - no link at all to health care.  What is currently happening, is that the preferred and acceptable degree requirements for Res F HCA are under review (and have been for some time).  In the interim, if a unit has an individual that wishes to join, or to take their Commission, then the unit can apply through 4 H Svcs Gp to the MOS Advisor for a waiver. If there are no other applicants with the preferred or acceptable degree, and the unit is short of HCA, then a waiver may be granted.

The greater issue is that you're not even in the same Province as 35 Fd Amb.  Currently, 23 Fd Amb has a Pl located in London ON, and I believe it has been provided an HCA or a GDNO as Pl Comd. I am in 28 Fd Amb, and we have looked at how to beef up our capability to support in Kingston, and Sudbury and the north - we may look at requesting a Pl allocation for this. If the CO of 35 Fd Amb feels that a strong case could be made to upgrade the Det in St John's to a Pl, then perhaps 4 H Svcs Gp could support it to CF H Svcs Gp.  Otherwise, the CO of 35 Fd Amb could, should they have vacant HCA positions, recommend your Commissioning (provided you meet all of the other requirements, and get the educational waiver), and opt to have you employed in St John's.


----------



## Shmack

Thank you for your replies. I'll talk to everyone I can and get in touch with the CO to figure out my next steps.


----------



## WeekOldPotatoSalad

Hello all,

I did a search and couldn’t find any recent information on this topic… Forgive me if my search was inadequate.

My question is in regards to likely posting opportunities. I am currently going through ROTP, set to graduate by the end of the year, and as I understand it, I will be posted shortly thereafter, at which time I will do phase III/IV in Borden, and the HealthCareCAN DL package.

To the point: It would make sense to me, as an outsider, for HCA’s first posting to be to either Edmonton or Pet, so that new HCA’s can easily transition between a clinic and a Field Amb as they progress (or back and forth as needed due to manning req). My reason for this line of thinking is that it allows the CAF to push one through their junior officer experience at an MIR and a Field Ambulance without having to do a public cost move between two bases, a “two postings with one stone” scenario that maximizes experience while minimizing cost. Similarly, being posted to a base clinic without a Field Amb-Wainwright, Gagetown, Halifax, etc- and then being tasked to a larger base for Field Amb work costs money for TD/travel, so it feels logical that this would be avoided, where possible. 

Am I on the right track here, or are fresh new HCA's commonly posted to smaller facilities? Does this line of thought make sense to those of you who have either been through it recently, or have knowledge of how this system works? If anyone has any thoughts on this, I am all ears (or eyes in this case).

Thank you for your insight.


----------



## MedCorps

The first thing you need to accept is that the posting plot makes no sense. The second thing is that it rarely has foresight past the immediate needs of the service, outside of those that are succession planned (which will not be you as a Lt HCA). Once you have accepted these two facts, you just place your fate in the hands of the man. Not joking, I am serious, you would think there is some sort of master plan to all of this moving as a subaltern, but alas, nope. 

Here is some food for thought and for the others looking at this thread in the future. 

HCA's right off the Basic Training List (meaning they are done BMOQ, HSOSOC, BHCA and the civilian health care certificate package) are employed in a number of locations / roles. 

1) Clinics. 
2) Field Units. 
3) Headquarters. 
4) Training Centre. 

1) Clinics.  The entry level position in a Canadian Forces Health Services Centre (Base Medical Clinic) is as the Support Services Manager (SSM). This really is not an entry level position probability suited for a newly minted Captain, but we use it as such and it is quite possible you will find yourself in this position as a new Lt with a boat load of responsibility. Each Canadian Forces Health Services Centre has one SSM and they report to the CO / Clinic Manager.  Responsible for clinic infrastructure, finance, human resources, the clinic orderly room and health records section. You will become a civilian (public service) management and finance ninja in this job. 

2) Field units. Either field ambulance (three of them) or 1 Canadian Field Hospital (1 of them). Most commonly you will start as the Assistant Operations Officer, Assistant Training Officer or Assistant Adjutant but it is possible you will be a Platoon Commander (Ambulance Pl) or Platoon 2IC (Medical Pl), Company 2IC right from the start.  The later three jobs are ideally a Sr. Lt or Jr. Captain, especially if the Med Pl Commander position is not filled due to a shortage of Medical Officers.  Here is the trick, the Field Ambulances also are responsible for the Base Medical Clinic (in such situations called Garrison Medical Support Company) they are co-located with, so you could also be the SSM working in the GS Coy of a Fd Amb. The nice thing about a Fd Amb is that that it offers some posting stability for a few years and you can move up the Jr Officer HCA chain in one location. For instance, you can move from A/Training Officer to Amb Pl Comd, to SSM, to Adjt, which could take multiple years.  If I was to request one posting from the Career Manager as a newly minted HCA it would be to a field unit, ideally a field ambulance. 

3) Headquarters. Three of them (Gp HQ in Ottawa, 1 Health Services Group and 4 Health Services Group).  In these positions you will be a staff officer supporting either other staff officers or be the staff officer to a Director / Commander (Gp HQ). These positions are not an ideal introduction to the CF H Svcs Gp, and nobody wants to be an Lt in a HQ, especially when everyone around you is a Captain or Major and you soon learn the about the concept of Shitty Little Jobs Officer.  If you have to pick one as an Lt, pick the HSGs as there is more meaningful work for an Lt there and less Sr. Officers to deal with. 

4) Training Centre.You will work as a finance officer, support services officer, maybe as a Coy Admin Officer. The nice thing at the Canadian Forces Training Centre is that you can stay a few years an move into an instructor position or become the Adjt / Ops O / Coy 2IC.  

So there you have it... life as a Lt HCA.  Things change when you get to Captain. 

I would go with a field unit. Get it done when you are young and set the conditions to return as a Coy Comd / DCO / CO someday. Likewise learn how a CF H Svcs C works as a Lt / Capt so you can set the conditions to be a Clinic CO / Manager one day.  

If you need anything else drop me a line and good luck with your transition from ROTP to the serving ranks. 

MC


----------



## WeekOldPotatoSalad

Thank you so much for your thoughtful, thorough response; it was extremely helpful in better understanding the situation (even if it _really_ opens the doors on possible postings). I'll give it some thought and probably come back to pester you with another question or two.


----------



## jitterbug

MedCorps said:
			
		

> The first thing you need to accept is that the posting plot makes no sense. The second thing is that it rarely has foresight past the immediate needs of the service, outside of those that are succession planned (which will not be you as a Lt HCA). Once you have accepted these two facts, you just place your fate in the hands of the man. Not joking, I am serious, you would think there is some sort of master plan to all of this moving as a subaltern, but alas, nope.
> 
> Here is some food for thought and for the others looking at this thread in the future.
> 
> HCA's right off the Basic Training List (meaning they are done BMOQ, HSOSOC, BHCA and the civilian health care certificate package) are employed in a number of locations / roles.
> 
> 1) Clinics.
> 2) Field Units.
> 3) Headquarters.
> 4) Training Centre.
> 
> 1) Clinics.  The entry level position in a Canadian Forces Health Services Centre (Base Medical Clinic) is as the Support Services Manager (SSM). This really is not an entry level position probability suited for a newly minted Captain, but we use it as such and it is quite possible you will find yourself in this position as a new Lt with a boat load of responsibility. Each Canadian Forces Health Services Centre has one SSM and they report to the CO / Clinic Manager.  Responsible for clinic infrastructure, finance, human resources, the clinic orderly room and health records section. You will become a civilian (public service) management and finance ninja in this job.
> 
> 2) Field units. Either field ambulance (three of them) or 1 Canadian Field Hospital (1 of them). Most commonly you will start as the Assistant Operations Officer, Assistant Training Officer or Assistant Adjutant but it is possible you will be a Platoon Commander (Ambulance Pl) or Platoon 2IC (Medical Pl), Company 2IC right from the start.  The later three jobs are ideally a Sr. Lt or Jr. Captain, especially if the Med Pl Commander position is not filled due to a shortage of Medical Officers.  Here is the trick, the Field Ambulances also are responsible for the Base Medical Clinic (in such situations called Garrison Medical Support Company) they are co-located with, so you could also be the SSM working in the GS Coy of a Fd Amb. The nice thing about a Fd Amb is that that it offers some posting stability for a few years and you can move up the Jr Officer HCA chain in one location. For instance, you can move from A/Training Officer to Amb Pl Comd, to SSM, to Adjt, which could take multiple years.  If I was to request one posting from the Career Manager as a newly minted HCA it would be to a field unit, ideally a field ambulance.
> 
> 3) Headquarters. Three of them (Gp HQ in Ottawa, 1 Health Services Group and 4 Health Services Group).  In these positions you will be a staff officer supporting either other staff officers or be the staff officer to a Director / Commander (Gp HQ). These positions are not an ideal introduction to the CF H Svcs Gp, and nobody wants to be an Lt in a HQ, especially when everyone around you is a Captain or Major and you soon learn the about the concept of Shitty Little Jobs Officer.  If you have to pick one as an Lt, pick the HSGs as there is more meaningful work for an Lt there and less Sr. Officers to deal with.
> 
> 4) Training Centre.You will work as a finance officer, support services officer, maybe as a Coy Admin Officer. The nice thing at the Canadian Forces Training Centre is that you can stay a few years an move into an instructor position or become the Adjt / Ops O / Coy 2IC.
> 
> So there you have it... life as a Lt HCA.  Things change when you get to Captain.
> 
> I would go with a field unit. Get it done when you are young and set the conditions to return as a Coy Comd / DCO / CO someday. Likewise learn how a CF H Svcs C works as a Lt / Capt so you can set the conditions to be a Clinic CO / Manager one day.
> 
> If you need anything else drop me a line and good luck with your transition from ROTP to the serving ranks.
> 
> MC



This is a really great post thanks for sharing as it cleared up alot of questions I had.


----------



## kfrunning

I am considering a rather startling career change and would like some input from anyone who might have some insight.

I originally trained as a Registered Nurse and have since obtained an MBA (while still maintaining my RN registration).  I have been managing hospital units for the last 10 years - budgets, human resources, clinical support, program development, etc.  I have also been living overseas for the last five years (Australia) and plan to return to Canada next year.  I am contemplating joining the reserves when I get home, or perhaps even the regular forces.  The biggest issue - I am already 47 years old!  Other forums have said that other middle-aged female recruits tend to take on the role of platoon mother during basic.  I can handle that, and I am quite fit, but I am not sure if this is a realistic consideration.

I would appreciate any information, insight, or advice that anyone is willing to share.


----------



## MedCorps

You have a good background.  If you want to continue being an administrator in a health care system and want to join the Canadian Forces then Health Care Administration (HCA) Officer would be a good choice in the Regular Force. I would not recommend joining as a Nursing Officer, unless you want to go back to clinical duties, for that is employment stream for Junior Officers, especially at the Lt rank. 

In the Reserve Force you will not be administrating a garrison health care system all that much, but rather leading / commanding in a field environment on weekends / training nights. 

Good luck... it never hurts to apply. 

MC


----------



## RocketRichard

If you're 47 and fit go for it.


----------



## mariomike

kfrunning said:
			
		

> The biggest issue - I am already 47 years old!



In case you have not already read it, you may find this discussion of interest,

Am I too old to join/do well/fit in? (Merged thread)  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/207.250


----------



## Leo791989

kfrunning
I was on this forum about 10 years ago or so, since then I have completed my RN and have been working as a RN for about 6 years or so. I am also one semester away from completing my MBA. Having said that, I've just applied for the HCA(Regular) career with the CF. I don't think age is a concern at all. As other's have said it, if you are fit and committed..Go For it!


----------



## ADIDAS

Hey all,

I am looking into a VOT from MARS to Health Care Admin.   I am post NOPQ and post-OFP, but prior to sending an intent up the CoC to speak to the BPSO to grab some information, I would like to know if anyone here has any information about HCA as a trade, how viable it is to VOT into and if there are specific pre-reqs in order to get picked up.

I have scoured the forums for information on HCA and it has not turned up much other than what is in recruiting videos.   If I am barking up the wrong tree here, I apologize and could someone please redirect me.

Cheers!


----------



## ModlrMike

It would be helpful if we knew what subject area you completed your degree in.


----------



## jitterbug

Does anyone know what an OCdt with BMOQ would wear for a cap badge?  Also what accouterments would be worn on the DEU? ie. buttons etc.  I tried contacting CFMSS with no luck.

Thanks.


----------



## T.I

Hello,

I apologize because this post is about to be quite long but please bear with me as I think it’s important I show the context. I currently find myself vacillating between two trades – Logistics Officer-AIR and Health Care Administration Officer and I was wondering if I could get some light shed on some things if it's not too much trouble.

A bit of background:
I'm 30 years old with an undergraduate degree in Health Sciences and a master’s degree in Business Administration. I have worked in administrative roles in hospitals and also worked as an analyst with a health-business consulting firm. For the past few years I have been working at the Canadian Red Cross Society in a financial reporting capacity.

My application to the Canadian Armed Forces has been ongoing for a quite a while – it’s been over 2.5 years. I applied to the CAF (Air Force) in March 2015. I had 3 trades on my file: Logistics Officer (Log-AIR), Health Care Administration Officer (HCA) and Aerospace Control Officer (AEC). I wrote the CFAT in May, and in July of that same year my file was sent to Ottawa for additional security screening because I am a dual citizen. The assessment finally came back October 18, 2017 (it was long wait!) with no security objections. 

On October 30 my recruiting centre contacted me and told me that because my application has been so long in processing, they would put in a special request to process my file further even though selection for my trades has closed for this fiscal year. The idea is to have me competition listed by the time the trades re-open for next the next fiscal so I’m ready to go as soon as possible. However, in order to put in the request I was advised to drop AEC from my choices because Air Crew Selection is required and booking for that is backed up till at least February which would mean more months of waiting. Since Log-AIR was my first choice anyway, I dropped AEC and the Intake Management approved the request for further processing.

Today November 2, I was told I have been booked for a medical and interview on November 23 for…HCA (which I guess makes sense given my educational and professional background). As I said before, Log-AIR is my first choice so I was a bit surprised. My dilemma is if I should request to have HCA dropped and stick with Log-AIR or if I should go ahead and get processed for HCA seeing as I've been waiting so long and I want to join the Forces so badly. I only have one week to get back to my file manager confirming my attendance so I really need some advice ASAP!

A few questions for the HCAs:
The reason I chose Log-AIR is because I think it gels well with my strengths (I’m analytical and detail oriented) and think it’s dynamic trade with fresh challenges that’ll keep me busy and not so bogged down in paperwork. I also think that it’s a trade that’s not so niche and so will make for easier transition to civilian life should I choose to.

-Do you find the HCA trade to be fresh and dynamic without becoming too routine/mundane with lots of tedious paperwork being the majority of the tasks?
- I would love to have some international deployment experiences. Are there enough opportunities for this being an HCA? More so than being a LogO?
- What is the career progression like for HCAs compared to LogOs in terms of moving up in rank? There are a lot less HCAs so I’m assuming there is less competition?
- Is second language training required/mandatory for HCAs?
- Do you have a choice on if you’re posted to a clinic, field unit, headquarters or training centre? I read something on this thread about ending up being a “Shitty Little Jobs Officer” at HQ and I shuddered.

These are some of the questions running through my mind as I’m trying to settle on a decision. Many thanks in advance to whoever is able to provide some answers.


----------



## HCA123

*Do you find the HCA trade to be fresh and dynamic without becoming too routine/mundane with lots of tedious paperwork being the majority of the tasks?
*
- These days with Health Services there is very little in the way of routine/mundane. There will always be paperwork, but I don’t find myself too often filling out paperwork that doesn’t have a purpose. 

*I would love to have some international deployment experiences. Are there enough opportunities for this being an HCA? More so than being a LogO?
*
- There are deployment opportunities and a couple of postings outside Canada as well (USA, Germany at the Capt rank and a couple of others at the Maj rank). Opportunities largely depend on where you are working though and if you have the support of your chain of command. There are likely ‘more’ Log O deployments available, but they are a bigger trade and I’m not sure if anyone here could really give you percentages. As for the RCAF side of things, they’ve been very busy over the last few years so likely they’ve had more deployments, but we are running a facility in Iraq and I think it’s safe to say we are all waiting to see if ‘the next mission’ also includes a facility. If it does, there will be opportunities for sure as it will normally include an HCA junior officer or 2 (or in the case of Afghanistan 4 or 5 Capt HCAs deployed at a time).

*What is the career progression like for HCAs compared to LogOs in terms of moving up in rank? There are a lot less HCAs so I’m assuming there is less competition?
*
- When I look at my RCAF Log O peers, I would say that they track a pretty similar timeframe for promotion to Maj/LCol. It will always be dependent on the person, but if you are a high performer, you’ll make it to Maj in about the same time in both trades.

*Is second language training required/mandatory for HCAs?
*
- training information upon enrollment can be provided by the recruiting group. For the most part, new officers are offered a full-time French course for 6-9 months upon completion of basic with the goal of reaching the federal government’s BBB level (BAB gets you out of there early). My information could be dated, so ask the recruiting centre. SLT is essential for progressing through the ranks – if you don’t have a valid SLT profile, you will quickly fall behind your peers in promotion to the next rank.

*Do you have a choice on if you’re posted to a clinic, field unit, headquarters or training centre? I read something on this thread about ending up being a “Shitty Little Jobs Officer” at HQ and I shuddered.
*
- Health Services prefers to send new HCAs to a field unit to start their careers, but obviously not everyone can start that way. At a field unit you get an introduction to field medicine; get to know the providers and how we deliver care in the field (field exercises, etc). When it comes to people’s personal preferences, it’s always a balance of things – job vs location, etc. For many people, location matters most, so if you decide that it’s a specific job that is most important, then ask for that job in a location that others don’t necessarily want. For example, if you want to run the HR and Finance for a clinic as the Manager of Support Services, ask to go to Wainwright or Cold Lake. They are both great little clinics and not a lot of people want to go there. If you really want to start your career at a field unit (which most of us will say is the best route), then ask to go to Petawawa as there are 3 units (2 large field and 1 small supply depot) and not a lot of people ask to go there. So my advice – find out where people don’t want to go and ask for that. If location stability is something you want, ask to go to Edmonton. Maybe you can start at the Field Ambulance, then transition to the clinic and then maybe find yourself at the HQ there. Assuming you end up on French following basic, wait until the completion of basic and then use this forum contact one of us to find out who the career manager and trade advisor are at the time, then I would encourage you to send them a short email of introduction and outline your posting preferences. If the email includes places that others don’t want to go, then they’ll likely pay closer attention to it. Don’t expect much back and forth dialogue this way or for it to continue once you are posted because then all communications go through your chain of command; but as a newbie, if you want to try and influence things, its best to do it while posting plot is in the planning stage (Nov-Jan timeframe).


----------



## T.I

HCA123 said:
			
		

> *Do you find the HCA trade to be fresh and dynamic without becoming too routine/mundane with lots of tedious paperwork being the majority of the tasks?
> *
> - These days with Health Services there is very little in the way of routine/mundane. There will always be paperwork, but I don’t find myself too often filling out paperwork that doesn’t have a purpose.
> 
> *I would love to have some international deployment experiences. Are there enough opportunities for this being an HCA? More so than being a LogO?
> *
> - There are deployment opportunities and a couple of postings outside Canada as well (USA, Germany at the Capt rank and a couple of others at the Maj rank). Opportunities largely depend on where you are working though and if you have the support of your chain of command. There are likely ‘more’ Log O deployments available, but they are a bigger trade and I’m not sure if anyone here could really give you percentages. As for the RCAF side of things, they’ve been very busy over the last few years so likely they’ve had more deployments, but we are running a facility in Iraq and I think it’s safe to say we are all waiting to see if ‘the next mission’ also includes a facility. If it does, there will be opportunities for sure as it will normally include an HCA junior officer or 2 (or in the case of Afghanistan 4 or 5 Capt HCAs deployed at a time).
> 
> *What is the career progression like for HCAs compared to LogOs in terms of moving up in rank? There are a lot less HCAs so I’m assuming there is less competition?
> *
> - When I look at my RCAF Log O peers, I would say that they track a pretty similar timeframe for promotion to Maj/LCol. It will always be dependent on the person, but if you are a high performer, you’ll make it to Maj in about the same time in both trades.
> 
> *Is second language training required/mandatory for HCAs?
> *
> - training information upon enrollment can be provided by the recruiting group. For the most part, new officers are offered a full-time French course for 6-9 months upon completion of basic with the goal of reaching the federal government’s BBB level (BAB gets you out of there early). My information could be dated, so ask the recruiting centre. SLT is essential for progressing through the ranks – if you don’t have a valid SLT profile, you will quickly fall behind your peers in promotion to the next rank.
> 
> *Do you have a choice on if you’re posted to a clinic, field unit, headquarters or training centre? I read something on this thread about ending up being a “Shitty Little Jobs Officer” at HQ and I shuddered.
> *
> - Health Services prefers to send new HCAs to a field unit to start their careers, but obviously not everyone can start that way. At a field unit you get an introduction to field medicine; get to know the providers and how we deliver care in the field (field exercises, etc). When it comes to people’s personal preferences, it’s always a balance of things – job vs location, etc. For many people, location matters most, so if you decide that it’s a specific job that is most important, then ask for that job in a location that others don’t necessarily want. For example, if you want to run the HR and Finance for a clinic as the Manager of Support Services, ask to go to Wainwright or Cold Lake. They are both great little clinics and not a lot of people want to go there. If you really want to start your career at a field unit (which most of us will say is the best route), then ask to go to Petawawa as there are 3 units (2 large field and 1 small supply depot) and not a lot of people ask to go there. So my advice – find out where people don’t want to go and ask for that. If location stability is something you want, ask to go to Edmonton. Maybe you can start at the Field Ambulance, then transition to the clinic and then maybe find yourself at the HQ there. Assuming you end up on French following basic, wait until the completion of basic and then use this forum contact one of us to find out who the career manager and trade advisor are at the time, then I would encourage you to send them a short email of introduction and outline your posting preferences. If the email includes places that others don’t want to go, then they’ll likely pay closer attention to it. Don’t expect much back and forth dialogue this way or for it to continue once you are posted because then all communications go through your chain of command; but as a newbie, if you want to try and influence things, its best to do it while posting plot is in the planning stage (Nov-Jan timeframe).




Thank you HCA123 for your very informative response! This forum has proved priceless with getting answers to my many questions.

I've decided to move forward with the HCA trade. I'm not even sure why I was hesitant to begin with as I've always had a passion and affinity for the health industry. Thank you for being available as a resource for additional questions.


----------



## MedCorps

As requested in PM... here are my thoughts. 

The reason I chose Log-AIR is because I think it gels well with my strengths (I’m analytical and detail oriented) and think it’s dynamic trade with fresh challenges that’ll keep me busy and not so bogged down in paperwork. I also think that it’s a trade that’s not so niche and so will make for easier transition to civilian life should I choose to.

*-Do you find the HCA trade to be fresh and dynamic without becoming too routine/mundane with lots of tedious paperwork being the majority of the tasks?
*
I think it is a dynamic occupation with lots of options for employment in a number of different areas within the Canadian Forces Health Services Group. At the entry level (Lt / Capt) postings in field units, the training centre, base medical clinics as a support services manager (finance, human resources, medical records, infrastructure) or in a HQ as a junior staff officer. There are even a few postings outside of Canada for Captains, such as in Washington DC and in Europe.  There is some paperwork, that is the life of an officer, but it is not overly tedious or mundane but rather is the tool to execute effect.  

-* I would love to have some international deployment experiences. Are there enough opportunities for this being an HCA? More so than being a LogO?
*

I am not sure what deployments look like for AIR LOG but HCAs deploy whenever we have some critical mass of personnel on the ground or access to healthcare is difficult.  I know we have HCA (Capt / Maj) deployed right now in Iraq, Latvia and Ukraine.  

* What is the career progression like for HCAs compared to LogOs in terms of moving up in rank? There are a lot less HCAs so I’m assuming there is less competition?*

I would suggest it is about the same.  Maybe a little easier to get to Major HCA but a little harder to get to LCol as there is a requirement to be selected for occupational transfer to the Health Services Officer (HSO) occupation.  The conversion to the executive steam (HSO) requires three years in rank as an HCA before your file can come before the board to be considered for selection.  There is the sound competition for HSO selection and promotion from HSO Major to LCol. 

*- Is second language training required/mandatory for HCAs?*

Not mandatory as a Capt / Maj. Certainly helps for selection to HSO and pretty much now a requirement at BBB for promotion to LCol.  If you want to progress ahead of your peers, language training matters as a Sr. Capt or as a new Maj in the five year striking distance to HSO selection. New HCA's are not being sent to French jail, I mean French course, right off of basic anymore unless they are at RMCC. That is a bit of a dated practice and most HCA's now come off of BMOQ and proceed to their first posting while awaiting HSOSOC and BHCA courses.   

*- Do you have a choice on if you’re posted to a clinic, field unit, headquarters or training centre? I read something on this thread about ending up being a “Shitty Little Jobs Officer” at HQ and I shuddered.
*

No choice, but you can suggest where you want to go and what you want to do. I generally phrase it like, "I serve at Her Majesty's pleasure and will go anywhere I am required, however I am really interested in field service in 1 Field Ambulance or working as a Support Services Manager in Comox if those are options currently".  As a Lt I would set your sights on the field force for 2-4 years and then as a Capt make your next move. Avoid at all cost a HQ as a Lt and shy away from CF H Svcs Gp HQ in Ottawa as a Capt if that  possible. 

I hope that helps.  Good luck on your selection. You background seems to fit well with the type of HCA the Royal Canadian Medical Service is looking for. You will be able to leverage your education and skills as a member of the CF H Svc Gp with out a doubt. It is rewarding to provide the administrative support and leadership to enable a complex health care system provide top quality care to the members of the CAF.  

Cheers, 

MC


----------



## T.I

MedCorps said:
			
		

> As requested in PM... here are my thoughts.
> 
> The reason I chose Log-AIR is because I think it gels well with my strengths (I’m analytical and detail oriented) and think it’s dynamic trade with fresh challenges that’ll keep me busy and not so bogged down in paperwork. I also think that it’s a trade that’s not so niche and so will make for easier transition to civilian life should I choose to.
> 
> *-Do you find the HCA trade to be fresh and dynamic without becoming too routine/mundane with lots of tedious paperwork being the majority of the tasks?
> *
> I think it is a dynamic occupation with lots of options for employment in a number of different areas within the Canadian Forces Health Services Group. At the entry level (Lt / Capt) postings in field units, the training centre, base medical clinics as a support services manager (finance, human resources, medical records, infrastructure) or in a HQ as a junior staff officer. There are even a few postings outside of Canada for Captains, such as in Washington DC and in Europe.  There is some paperwork, that is the life of an officer, but it is not overly tedious or mundane but rather is the tool to execute effect.
> 
> -* I would love to have some international deployment experiences. Are there enough opportunities for this being an HCA? More so than being a LogO?
> *
> 
> I am not sure what deployments look like for AIR LOG but HCAs deploy whenever we have some critical mass of personnel on the ground or access to healthcare is difficult.  I know we have HCA (Capt / Maj) deployed right now in Iraq, Latvia and Ukraine.
> 
> * What is the career progression like for HCAs compared to LogOs in terms of moving up in rank? There are a lot less HCAs so I’m assuming there is less competition?*
> 
> I would suggest it is about the same.  Maybe a little easier to get to Major HCA but a little harder to get to LCol as there is a requirement to be selected for occupational transfer to the Health Services Officer (HSO) occupation.  The conversion to the executive steam (HSO) requires three years in rank as an HCA before your file can come before the board to be considered for selection.  There is the sound competition for HSO selection and promotion from HSO Major to LCol.
> 
> *- Is second language training required/mandatory for HCAs?*
> 
> Not mandatory as a Capt / Maj. Certainly helps for selection to HSO and pretty much now a requirement at BBB for promotion to LCol.  If you want to progress ahead of your peers, language training matters as a Sr. Capt or as a new Maj in the five year striking distance to HSO selection. New HCA's are not being sent to French jail, I mean French course, right off of basic anymore unless they are at RMCC. That is a bit of a dated practice and most HCA's now come off of BMOQ and proceed to their first posting while awaiting HSOSOC and BHCA courses.
> 
> *- Do you have a choice on if you’re posted to a clinic, field unit, headquarters or training centre? I read something on this thread about ending up being a “Shitty Little Jobs Officer” at HQ and I shuddered.
> *
> 
> No choice, but you can suggest where you want to go and what you want to do. I generally phrase it like, "I serve at Her Majesty's pleasure and will go anywhere I am required, however I am really interested in field service in 1 Field Ambulance or working as a Support Services Manager in Comox if those are options currently".  As a Lt I would set your sights on the field force for 2-4 years and then as a Capt make your next move. Avoid at all cost a HQ as a Lt and shy away from CF H Svcs Gp HQ in Ottawa as a Capt if that  possible.
> 
> I hope that helps.  Good luck on your selection. You background seems to fit well with the type of HCA the Royal Canadian Medical Service is looking for. You will be able to leverage your education and skills as a member of the CF H Svc Gp with out a doubt. It is rewarding to provide the administrative support and leadership to enable a complex health care system provide top quality care to the members of the CAF.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> MC



Thank you for your response MedCorps, I really appreciate the info you provided. I'm looking forward to beginning my career as an HCA in the CAF!


----------



## da1root

HCA123 said:
			
		

> *Is second language training required/mandatory for HCAs?
> *
> - training information upon enrollment can be provided by the recruiting group. For the most part, new officers are offered a full-time French course for 6-9 months upon completion of basic with the goal of reaching the federal government’s BBB level (BAB gets you out of there early). My information could be dated, so ask the recruiting centre. SLT is essential for progressing through the ranks – if you don’t have a valid SLT profile, you will quickly fall behind your peers in promotion to the next rank.





			
				MedCorps said:
			
		

> *- Is second language training required/mandatory for HCAs?*
> 
> Not mandatory as a Capt / Maj. Certainly helps for selection to HSO and pretty much now a requirement at BBB for promotion to LCol.  If you want to progress ahead of your peers, language training matters as a Sr. Capt or as a new Maj in the five year striking distance to HSO selection. New HCA's are not being sent to French jail, I mean French course, right off of basic anymore unless they are at RMCC. That is a bit of a dated practice and most HCA's now come off of BMOQ and proceed to their first posting while awaiting HSOSOC and BHCA courses.



Weighing in from the Recruiting side since Recruiting was mentioned.  SLT is no longer a requirement for any officer occupation from a Recruiting perspective.  SLT will be mandated by the Occupational Authority (Career Manager) for each Occupation upon completion of the Basic Military Officer Qualification.

Where we're instructed as Recruiters is that for most occupations there is no requirement for SLT until someone reaches the Senior Staff Officer level (Maj/LCol), unless there is a requirement to do it sooner as mandated within the occupation.


----------



## Koval95

I am graduating from university this spring with a bachelor's in health management from York U, and I was looking into applying as a healthcare administrator. I was wondering if it would be better to pursue a master's degree in a university/ RMC, or try to apply for this job right away with a bachelor's. 

I would think enrolling in the RMC/ other university for a master's in public admin. would perhaps improve the chances of getting an offer. I would still prefer to work in the army as I think it would be much more interesting. I was wondering if anyone has tried applying for this with a bachelors? how competitive is it? was also wondering of any other insights I should now of, since I am not very acquainted with the process and the progression in this field.
Thank you!


----------



## jitterbug

Koval95 said:
			
		

> I am graduating from university this spring with a bachelor's in health management from York U, and I was looking into applying as a healthcare administrator. I was wondering if it would be better to pursue a master's degree in a university/ RMC, or try to apply for this job right away with a bachelor's.
> 
> I would think enrolling in the RMC/ other university for a master's in public admin. would perhaps improve the chances of getting an offer. I would still prefer to work in the army as I think it would be much more interesting. I was wondering if anyone has tried applying for this with a bachelors? how competitive is it? was also wondering of any other insights I should now of, since I am not very acquainted with the process and the progression in this field.
> Thank you!



Personally, I would apply with the bachelor's.  Not too many people will have that particular degree and depending on your experience that may be to your advantage.  Having a Masters you are over qualified for an entry level job which in the case of the military isn't a bad thing but its a tremendous amount of effort for what I would consider a small amount of advantage.  Get in with the bachelors and let the military pay for you to get the Masters.  Look at it from a financial perspective as well.  The sooner you start working, the sooner you start earning and getting raises and experience.  The worst thing that could happen is that you aren't selected and you go and do your Masters anyway.  The level of competition varies from year to year depending on needs of the service and the numbers and types of applicants so it is impossible to say how competitive it is at any given time.  The fact that you will have completed your degree puts you higher in the pile than many people that haven't.

When you apply you request what element you want (Land-Army, Sea-Navy or Air-Airforce).  There is no guarantee which one you will get but as an HCA you are what is called a purple trade so you can be any element and work in any environment so your element doesn't really matter in that occupation.


----------



## Gunner98

jitterbug said:
			
		

> Personally, I would apply with the bachelor's... The fact that you will have completed your degree puts you higher in the pile than many people that haven't.



The people without degrees will be in a different pile - ROTP, since those with degrees go in the DEO pile.  The way things sometimes work you may want to apply for HCA and for your Masters, it may take until you complete your Masters before you get accepted into CAF.


----------



## GINge!

Not sure if this is still the case, but applicants with Master's degrees were advance promoted to Captain. Plus, you are instantly more competitive at the Capt boards with an additional point for your graduate degree.


----------



## jitterbug

For info,

I just spoke with a newly minted HCA.  He said they are no longer doing the civi health certificate.  He said you just do HSOSOC and BHCA courses and then you are qualified.  He said they were looking at bring in some sort of course/training with a tactical aspect to it???  Maybe someone knows more about that?


----------



## MedCorps

The health certificate is indeed dead and not longer part of the required training to be qualified as an HCA.  Thank god.  

New course in existence called the Health Services Tactical Operations Course.  This is the first of two courses. 

Second course is in development now called the Health Services Operational Planning Course.  First serial runs in early 2019 I am told. 

These courses are not required to to be qualified but offered as specialty courses as required at Capt 1 onward.  

MC


----------



## dapaterson

Time to rebadge HCA/HSO as Log - Medical.


----------



## Blackadder1916

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Time to rebadge HCA/HSO as Log - Medical.



I remember being part of a short discussion on that subject on these means (this thread actually, a couple pages back) a few years ago and not surprisingly there was some similarity in the kickoff. Sound familiar?



			
				dapaterson said:
			
		

> To the unenlightened (like me) there's a challenge in understanding the difference between these two support trades - Health Care Administrator and Health Services Operations.
> 
> And, perhaps more interestingly, skimming the occupational specification for HSO, it reads suspiciously like a subset of the Log officer occupation - but with "H Svcs" tacked on to everything - so it's not HR management, it's H Svcs HR Management.
> 
> Question:  Is there truly a need for those two as stand-alone occupations, or could they be part of the Log O family, with specialty training for any H Svcs specific issues?
> 
> (And where's that can of worms icon?)



The discussion lasted only a few posts culminating in one that seemed to end the debate (well, there were no responses to the points made).



			
				Simian Turner said:
			
		

> After spending 14 years an Artillery Officer and the last 11 as a HCA/HSO, I can tell you these considerations are not nuances or small matters.  Working with MOs, Nurses, Pharm Os is not a simple task.  Most medical units have a Log O that takes care of the Supply/Log side of the unit, they have little patience for the clinical leaders within the unit lines.
> 
> Therefore, it is more about learning when something is deemed critical and a surge (not extra electricity) is required in a medical facility to accommodate expected casualties resulting from a Major Medical Incident or a mass casualty, that lives depend on scarce equipment/resources and flexible priorities.  When lives hang in the balance there isn't time to bring someone up to speed on the terminology beyond the content of a 9-liner.
> 
> In the manner that the Army has considered and rejected having a General Purpose Officer who is Infantry first and has sub-specialties, the idea of the Fd Amb as a company within Svc Bns has not been realized.
> 
> The HSO occupation also takes people from clinical fields (Pharm, Physio, Nurses) and places them in non-clinical admin and leadership roles.  Who would mentor these people if there were no HCAs.  The in and out logistics officers from the Log empire could eliminate the subtleties in the language that save lives, although one shovel or pick fits all, one surgical saw or blade is the difference between paralysis and sensation.
> 
> If the Log empire builders are looking to conquer, it should look elsewhere; our soldiers deserve a knowledgeable, compassionate health care admin or health services operations officer not a crusty, ignorant patient transport company commander.


----------



## dapaterson

I know a fair number of HCA/HSOs,and have a certain perspective of elements of what they do; where they do well; and where they are institutionally weak.  HSO is fed almost exclusively from HCA; frankly, given the specialist training required for NUR and PHARM, it's a waste of their skills to convert them to HSO.

Thus, I think the focus needs to be on HCA & HSO, what they do, and how they are employed.  (This has to be nested in a larger reset of Medical Services overall - scrapping half the MED positions in the Reg F and replacing them with nurses of the extended class would be a first positive step).  The Occ Specs still read like what could be a sub-occ of Log (and I am old and ornery enough to want to revert Log to functional vice environmental lines - that was a command driven mistake that still needs to be rectified).  That would provide a career field (mostly) in medical roles, but would also provide career broadening opportunities that the insular Med world can't offer.


----------



## dapaterson

A further thought: Regardless of the future employment structure (Log-Med, status quo, rebadging all HCA/HSO to the Royal Winnipeg Rifles...) there need to be increased ATR employment opportunities, and develop some outward-looking leadership.


----------



## Gunner98

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I know a fair number of HCA/HSOs,and have a certain perspective of elements of what they do; where they do well; and where they are institutionally weak.  HSO is fed almost *exclusively* from HCA; frankly, given the specialist training required for NUR and PHARM, it's a waste of their skills to convert them to HSO.



To use the word exclusive is inappropriate.  In the last 15 years almost as many Nurses became HSOs as HCAs and only a few Pharm (MedCorps will correct if I am wrong!) As for progression, a similar number of former Nurses and HCAs reached the rank of LCol and Col.  As for GO/FO, one HCA, one Nurse and one Pharmacist.  You can't forget that many MOs and Dentists are doing non-clinical jobs which is certainly a questionable use of their specialty training and salary.


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## dapaterson

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> You can't forget that many MOs and Dentists are doing non-clinical jobs which is certainly a questionable use of their specialty training and salary.



Fully agree.  Nurses and pharmacists also have increasing scopes of practice that the CAF should leverage to reduce reliance on medical officers; there's also a significant investment in training and education for those occupations that needs to be properly leveraged (eg NPs).


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## Gunner98

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Fully agree.  Nurses and pharmacists also have increasing scopes of practice that the CAF should leverage to reduce reliance on medical officers; there's also a significant investment in training and education for those occupations that needs to be properly leveraged (eg NPs).



Not many NPs in uniform, but the Capt/Lt PAs are filling new/different officer roles that are value-added.  For example a Capt PA works in the Directorate of Mental Health responsible for Medical Prof Tech Suicide Reviews.


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