# Reservists on Tour - selfish.



## IPC10 (13 Sep 2005)

This is spawned by the current discussions about reserves on overseas tours.

*Selfishness* (Self"ish*ness) n.

1. Meanly close and covetous; one who spends grudgingly; a stingy, parsimonous fellow; a miser.
2. The quality or state of being selfish; meanness in giving or spending; parsimony; stinginess.
*3. The quality or state of being selfish; exclusive regard to one's own interest or happiness; that supreme self-love or self-preference which leads a person to direct his purposes to the advancement of his own interest, power, or happiness, without regarding those of others. * 

My interest is with the third definition above.

Coming from the reserve community I acknowledge the pick and choose aspect of the reserve commitment to overseas deployments.  I echo other poster's ideas on the concept of 'pony-up cowboy' and join the regular force if you want good tours based on events such as the large number of soldiers from the western infantry regiment who refused to sign their second BEs based that they had joined after 9-11, spent three years hearing how the army was overtasked, and then never got an overseas deployment in their short time in.  I fully acknowledge that there is a larger scale plan to the use of reservists in the managed readiness cycle.  I know that there is a reason behind their deployment, which brings me to the definition above.

The army is overtasked.  I am not talking about tours alone here I am talking more about the training system.  Most training institutions have a number of positions that could probably be lumped under the ITCB or ARE (Army Reserve Establishment).  Basically we need reservists to start filling vacant positions within the training establishment in order to relive buzzwords like 'pers op tempo' but basically so we can stop hitting the field force to provide individual augmentation.

One fundamental assumption I will make is that if you take two instructors, _ceteris paribus_, the one with operational experience will make a better instructor.  It appears to me that one of the reasons we want reservists with op experience is so they can pass those lessons on.  

My fundamental critique of the system is that reservists are selfish.  They all want the gongs that come with overseas deployments.  There is a distinct lack of ethics that compiles the average reservists to 'pony-up' to the training system.

Someone tell me reservists aren't selfish.  Someone tell me that a reservist coming off Op ARCHER will gladly commit his/her next summer or next time off from an employer thinking about the betterment of the army and take a callout at an area training centre or CTC.  Someone tell me that the average reservist who wants a tour isn't doing it for the gong, or the money, or the experience but acknowledges that he/she is a part of the Canadian Armed Forces and has an obligation as defined under the new leadership doctrine to pass that information on to the Canadian Armed Forces as a whole.  There is more to being a professional than going on tours, there are other aspects to the job as well.  

Someone tell me that the reserves are professional.

Someone tell me the reserves aren't selfish.

(PS - I did search and considered adding this to the thread on TF 1-06 Reserve Employment or Reserve A-stan Tour in 2007)


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## wotan (13 Sep 2005)

Rather a broad generalization, IMHO.  Are there selfish Reservists?  Certainly.  But there are also selfish people in the Reg F and I believe careerism is far more rampant in the Reg F.  There are also some consummate professionals in the P Res just as they also exist in the Reg F.

  As an RMS CLK that has DAGGED thousands of soldiers for deployments, I can assure you it isn't just the P Res soldiers that are concerned about how much money they will get or how many and which medals they will be awarded.


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## McG (13 Sep 2005)

What is your proposal?  Reserve contracts for overseas should include a mandatory trg sp period on the back end?  6 months for DAG, work-up, and pre-deployment leave, 6 months overseas, 6 month for reconstitution, post deployment medicals, leave, and then 6 months to work at a trg establishment?

Are you simply trying to say that the trg system should reduce the number of regular force postings by increasing the number of Class B/A positions in the battle schools?



			
				IPC10 said:
			
		

> I echo other poster's ideas on the concept of 'pony-up cowboy' and join the regular force if you want good tours based on events such as the large number of soldiers from the western infantry regiment who refused to sign their second BEs based that they had joined after 9-11, spent three years hearing how the army was overtasked, and then never got an overseas deployment in their short time in.


Based on your threshold of selfishness, maybe they should have considered an OT to one of the many occupations that are stretched to thier limits.  The infantry, while still lacking in numbers, are not the limiting factor when determining where our capacity runs out (we run out of engineers, 291ers, and other occupations first).  

The lack of a constructive solution causes me to think you were only out to rant.  Am I wrong?


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## Neill McKay (13 Sep 2005)

I'd have a hard time describing anyone who works a full day on civvy street and then spends his evening at the armouries, or someone who uses his "vacations" for military training, as selfish.


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## Jarnhamar (13 Sep 2005)

> Someone tell me the reserves aren't selfish.



Sure.
I know a reservist who spent some of his HLTA, taken over the christmas hollidays, volenteering with a homeless shelter feeding less fortinuate people instead of drinking his face off.
Quit a job making close to $23 an hour to go away for training with the reserves.
Doesn't know exactly how much money he makes with the army. Doesn't care.   He has enough money in his bank to eat and pay his bills.
Donates money to shriners, tsunami relief fund etc..   Only $100 compared to a hollywood actor donating $50'000 but then again they make 14 MILLION per movie.
Applied to go overseas to do his part, gain operational experience and generally try to help people \, doesn't give a shit about how much money he makes.

Yes there are selfish soldiers in the reserves who only give a shit about money. They want all the good taskings with the least amount of responsibility. 50% of the blame belongs to the reservists and 50% to the reserve structure that puts up with these guys.

There are just as many regular force privates who pray to the all mighty dollar to pay for their 10 foot wide screen TVs, Xboxs and go fast cars and cry over reservists getting positions on tour as there are reservists who blow their money on drinking etc.. etc.. and go begging to the BOR that they need pay advances (and who cry that they aren't getting good positions with their counterparts in the regular force infantry).

There are a lot of guys like you described in the reserves but you can't paint them all with that brush.
One needs simply look at the respected senior members of this board who transfered from the reserves to the regular force.   Were they only motivated by greed? 
I think not.


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## dutchie (13 Sep 2005)

Hey IPC10, on your next block of leave, why don't you go work at Starbucks for half your normal wage? On weekends, why don't you get a job delivering pizzas? And then when some arsehole who's worked full-time there for the last 5 years tell you your selfish because you can't work Mondays, you can tell him to piss off.

Piss off.


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## Armymedic (13 Sep 2005)

IPC10 said:
			
		

> Someone tell me that the average reservist who wants a tour isn't doing it for the gong, or the money, or the experience



Sorry I can't do that..

But I also can't tell you that every Regular Force "professional" soldier is going on tour for the betterment of the CF and is not doing it just for the gong, or the money, or the experience.


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## KevinB (13 Sep 2005)

Yes but at least the system squeezes every last drop of blood from our souls


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## dutchie (13 Sep 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> Yes but at least the system squeezes every last drop of blood from our souls



The Reserves:

Underutilized? Yes. Lazy/selfish? Nope.


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## FormerHorseGuard (13 Sep 2005)

this is what  i think of the reserve bashing from both sides. I was a reserve on a long term class B A contract. 5 years of it. so i know what I am speaking of i worked along side reg force soldiers everyday of it. 
B A contracts can be a trap, but they are very educational about how the real army is and you get the chance for the education at a reduced level pay and benefits but you agreed to that  up front and accept it for what it is. 

reserves soldiers at all levels and ranks  join because they want to for various reasons:
a) money for school, second income, pay for education ( some would do it for no money, or for very bad pay  like they did in the 60s, 70s)
b) join because they are interested in serving their country  in  a small way  or it is a hobby 
c) the chance to do something else outside of normal working hours that not everyone else gets to do in their spare time. ( where else can you  operate large machines like tanks, apc, flyaircraft, jump from planes, fire various small arms, fire larger weapons systems, get some travel and get paid for it and get to go home after the weekend)
d) join to check it out before going for a full time career in the forces
e) a few join to wear a uniform , dogtags  to get girls or guys, ( not a great reason but we know it happens)
f) because they want to feel they  belong to something bigger then life
all valid reasons to join the res forces.

as for a res force member being selfish 
here are some of the ways they are selfish if you want to call it being selfish

1) they give up time out of a normal life to learn, teach and pass on these skills to new members 
2) they  give weekends, holidays to train, to parade at special events
3) they give up time with their family  because they  know the only way  to get the chance to do some serious training is to take 2 weeks off in the summer and go on the area exercise ( might be the only  2 weeks vacation they get that  year, give it up for non family  time very selfish if you are one of the family memebers looking at dad going away  )
4) the res force member wanting a course over the summer for the non student, has to give up his or her vaccation , or see if the company  they  work for will give them time off without pay. if they get the time off without pay  they  have to work for less money and benefits then they get at the full time job. 
5) res force training periods relie on a lot of pretend things, like pretend ememy soldiers ( hard to find troops to play  the ememy never enough to man training slots let a lone enough to play ememy  force  in a realistic manner ) have to pretend a truck is ememy tank , was on ex where a cj  jeep  with lights flashing was a t 72, lights off it was t 60,  mlvw was large troop lift aircraft,  bullets were called  budget cuts are you yelled as you were firing. But no one complained they got training on the basic skills
6) going on training with reg force unit and have to hear how bad we are because we do not have the training of the guy who just came off a 6 month course in the reg force. 

at the upper levels of some res units when on joint training you see officers and sn ncos shadowing their reg force counter part learning as much as they can about the real full time job  which is very  good training. does have its draw backs and i am sure it is a pain in the *** for the reg force sgt major to have the res sgt major following him around making notes and asking question but that  is part of the training.


now look at the other side of the coin
reg force side
reasons to join

1)  money, benefits, education, and a it is a career not apart time job 
2) join to serve your country, 
3) family  business so to speak

training you get a lot of it and you expect a lot from your training
you do not have to take time off and lose pay, benefits and have to worry  if you can afford the time off to take the training, your pay might increase while your on training. thru TD allowances, travel home claims, 
your family  knows that  it is your first job and they  expect you to be gone at a minutes notice, they all dread that  call phone call in the middle of the night and you are off out the door just to come back because it was training ex, but it might be real next time

you get to complain and moan about how bad the training is of those res force troops is when they come to visit the unit and go for real army  training.
you get to laugh at the dress uniforms they  wear , kilts,  funny  hats,  and tell them you would not be caught dead in one of those.

Before you start to complain and bash them for what  they are , see how you can fix it for them.

You are the trainers, the lack of training and knowledge they come home with and take back to the units falls back on you and the training staff.

Next time you see the young res force trooper doing something not quite the right way, stop and take a second to show how it should be done. 
 Sometimes you might be shocked and learn something from them. I know of a few cases if you looked at the res force guy  you would think he was not very  bright. ( one case he was a very  old CPL, admin clerk , turns out he was a retired bristh army SGT Major who met a Canadian lady  and married her and moved to Canada, missed the army  life, but no  Engineer unit near him so he joined the SVC BN, he had the best uniforms and boots on parades in meaford that year. The medic might be a full time EMS guy who works in large city answering gunshots and stabbing calls everyday.you the army medic might learn soemthing from him. The Sgt Major of the unit might be big city  cop and the sniper on the swat team.  You do not know the backgrounds of some of these res force troops. The guy  digging the trench beside you might be a highschool sudent and quarterback or the waterboy for all you know). they  come to training because they want to give and take something back.

Being a res force soldier is about being selfish if you want to see it that  way. Some might want the attention that  the uniform brings, might want the chance to pick and coose tours they want to go on. Mostly  it is selfish to their families, and careers back in the real world for them.

No reg force soldier has to worry that  his pay  will be cut back when he leaves for a tour, or training. On a tour pay  usually  increases with various allowances depending on the tour and how long the tour will last. 

No reg force soldier has to give up his or her summer vaccation to go on a  training exercise to learn their job, apply  what  they learned in  training classes.

No reg force soldier has to worry  that  his SGT or OC will not let him have the time off for a training or classes

I had friends on both sides of the coin, reg force and res force who wanted to go on tours.

both wanted the adventure, wanted the extra money, the medals, and the chance to say  i was there when all heck broke loose.

i know i wanted a tour, never got one

i wanted it for the adventure, did not care about the money, I wanted the chnace to travel and say  I was a part of something bigger and more important them me. guess i was selfish too.


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## Brad Sallows (13 Sep 2005)

The reserves selfish, eh?  I've noticed that when situations and budgets change, the door can slam shut pretty hard and fast on the backsides of those selfish reservists who were foolish enough to commit to full-time engagement.  Exigencies of the service and exigencies of the individual.  Don't pretend either should not exist.


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## Sig_Des (13 Sep 2005)

I guess these should be added in the dictionary under the heading "selfish":

1. Giving of ones personal time on evenings and weekends for military service instead of spending it at home with the family after working a full-time civillian job

2. Instead of going to the beach, cottage, or just staying at home during the summer vacation, going to various bases across the country, far from home, for military training

3. Taking time off work (sometimes a higher paying vocation than the CF) to participate in Excersizes, taskings, and training

4. Giving up a civillian job (also sometimes a higher paying vocation than the CF) to go on summer course, because said employer wouldn't give you the time off.


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## IPC10 (13 Sep 2005)

Much to the determent to myself it is obvious that I did not make the source of my compliant perfectly clear.  I am not saying that reservists should not go on tour.  Nor am I saying that there isn't a percentage of people in the regular force who are not selfish - I even state in my opening that a bunch of soldiers did not sign their 2nd BE which by my own definition can only be regarded as selfish.

I made the post based on an assumption that the majority of the people from the reserves on this thing were at a rank level that I might be able to make them think.  There is an incredible benefit on the armoury floors to having people with tours - I am thinking in terms of both informal training and retention.  What I am suggesting is that for anyone above the rank of Cpl there is an obligation to train not only within your Regt but the Army as a whole.

The source of my bitterness is the perception of the line up of people to go on tours compared to the pain behind postings/taskings to training institutions.  Bottom line is that as much as the regs complain about postings to training establishments they have to go at the end of the day - not so much in the reserve world.

I would invite you all to read the pam entitled "Canada's Army" (B-GL-300-000-FP-000)  From there I direct your attention to the following quotes:

"Attributes of Professionalism
Expertise. This is reflected in the military professional's
extensive and authoritative knowledge in the field of armed
conflict, including what constitutes appropriate military
actions during peace and war. It encompasses leadership
and management skills required for planning, preparing and
executing complex military operations, as well as sound
understanding of the capabilities of personnel, weapons,
and equipment. Expertise is acquired through formal
education, self study, training, and experience."

And

"Duty. Duty is manifested in responsibility and devotion to
Canada; loyalty to superiors, peers and subordinates alike;
courage, resolve and competence in the execution of tasks;
pursuit of professional knowledge and self-development;
use of initiative; application of judgement, intellect and
decisiveness; and subordination of self to mission at all
times. Duty for leaders additionally entails being aware
of and tending to the needs of subordinates."

And the underlying issue of my original post:

"In peacetime, it must be carefully managed to ensure that it does
not assume greater importance than the corporate wellbeing
of the army as a whole, nor unduly favour or prejudice
individuals in lieu of merit."



*If you are going to read one sentence from this post read this one:  There are a million and one things wrong with the system.  This is one area where people in this audience might be able to effect change based on their conduct.  Is there any discussions within the reserves or a feeling of an obligation beyond their home unit to the system as a whole?*

(PS - Please note that I spent eight years of my life as a reserve NCO, doing my share of Class B call-outs but avoiding Cypress and the Golan.  I know all about the pain of making ends meet while going to school holding down a regular job in addition to my reserve commitment.   Giving up reading weeks to go on concentrations or superbowl weekends spent in Wainwright or the Sarcee Trg Area.  If anyone would like to discuss what I personally do on my time off with respect to self study and organizations such as the Special Olympics please send me a PM and I would be more than happy to chat.)


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## 54/102 CEF (13 Sep 2005)

DND is poorly led by the government - poorly funded and this trickles down to the troops on the Armoury Floor in unmet expectations.

I think the all unit leadership has to keep in mind that the soldier sees a lot of what our neighbours do with vastly scaled up resources and thinks why not here?

It has to be drilled into the reservists head that they are

Part time soldiers - they are far down the line for call-up as the governments foreign policy is basically tied to the number of regular troops available for self sustaining tasks. The Canadains have not tended to get into open ended commitments that are far beyond a steady state army perspective as in Iraq or Afghanistan.

That said - there is logically fewer slots avail for the part time troops than the full time troops. And as far as I know its  a regionally tasked out manning program that when it gets to the unit is an indiv competition

As in previous years - you can get on a tour or a course or a tasking but have to keep in mind the top soldiers wil get preference.

Hence the units leadership have to emphasize the infectious spirit of competition at the unit level which will put the spotlight on you and open up doors for tours and taskings.

The Army cannot afford to send anyone anywhere - like you`d get on a civvy bus - you have to fight your way on.

Not *wanting* to fight for it is the selfish part.


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## Sig_Des (13 Sep 2005)

IPC10 said:
			
		

> Is there any discussions within the reserves or a feeling of an obligation beyond their home unit to the system as a whole?



Absolutely. Unit pride is as prevalent in the Reserves as it is in the Reg Force, but we are all members of the Canadian Forces as a whole.

Everyone has their own reasons to go on training, taskings or tour.

From my own unit, we have a couple of people on tour, but we also have a larger number of people on taskings with reg force units across Canada at any given time. 

The idea you seemed to be putting across of the reservist grabbing for tours like kids for candy bars. But IMHO, it should be kept in mind that we ALL serve our country, for one reason or another


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## dutchie (13 Sep 2005)

A mostly well-thought out post, with the exception of this:



			
				IPC10 said:
			
		

> I made the post based on an assumption that the majority of the people from the reserves on this thing were at a rank level that I might be able to make them think.


Well, smartguy, what kind of reaction did you expect when you post this:


			
				IPC10 said:
			
		

> My fundamental critique of the system is that reservists are selfish.   They all want the gongs that come with overseas deployments.   There is a distinct lack of ethics that compiles the average reservists to 'pony-up' to the training system.
> 
> Someone tell me reservists aren't selfish.......Someone tell me that the reserves are professional. Someone tell me the reserves aren't selfish.



Call me slefish and I get my back up. Guess I'm funny that way.


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## IPC10 (13 Sep 2005)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> I guess these should be added in the dictionary under the heading "selfish":
> 
> 1. Giving of ones personal time on evenings and weekends for military service instead of spending it at home with the family after working a full-time civilian job
> 
> ...



Oh I was never arguing the regular devotion you HAVE to have in the militia.   I would add to that the reserve joy behind having a civ job where the employer values you enough that a week after telling him you would not be working the summer your summer long dream task to Vernon falls through and that you call him on Friday from Vernon saying "Can I work this summer?" and by Monday you are back selling bikes.

I wasn't arguing the regular devotion you have to have to be in the militia.   We just ran a course here for the reserves where one of the pure-mil col reg force guys was slamming the low standard within the reserves to which I pointed out that in addition to your points above that all of our reserve candidates were also willingly going on a course where they all (by their own admission) were clueless about how to actually do things properly but still showed up and charged ahead.   I mean think about it, going to something where you know you have no clue but still going on top of all of the points above.

Needless this wasn't what I was getting at in my original post.


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## Steel Badger (13 Sep 2005)

Stuff the Gong..........I went for the experience......


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## Jarnhamar (13 Sep 2005)

> Bottom line is that as much as the regs complain about postings to training establishments they have to go at the end of the day â â€œ not so much in the reserve world.



This isn't something new though.
This is how the regular force/reserve force IS set up.  It's the whole theorybehind the reserves.

So your bitter because regular force members are forced to do their job and reserves (a voluntary entity) have  to volenteer for it?

I'm not picking a fight here i just don't understand your intention.  Your initial post sounded like a big slam against the reserves. You probably didn't intend it as such but you can't help peoples reaction to how you came across.


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## X Royal (13 Sep 2005)

As someone who has spent time in both the regs & reserves I think the original post in this thread is complete BS. Just an other attempt to divide.
Do the reserves get the same training as the regs. *NO*.
Do they want it. Mostly *Yes*.
Are the reserves as dedicated as the regs. Quite often More/ Sometimes Less.
Not often do regs. give up their annual leave or weekends/days off.(Yes reserves paid but loss of personal/family time)
Is anyone selfish when they serve their Country. If with honour *NO*.
If the goverment ever decides to protect the reservists jobs (simular to the US) many more reservists would be avalible for both tours & training positions.


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## IPC10 (13 Sep 2005)

Time to paraphrase:

Shock and awe â â€œ original post intended to piss everyone off worked.

Fully acknowledge what it really is to be a reservist (talking about the people who contribute as normally full time civilians and then add the military side â â€œ twice the citizen one pam said).

Question remains â â€œ do any reservists above the rank of Cpl feel there is any professional obligation on their part to make the same level of sacrifice that they would have to for an overseas deployment to give their operational experience to the training system outside of their home unit?

I know it's not the same â â€œ no medals, no tour money on the surface, no new challenges and experiences (which is a big part of why people join IMHO).  But knowing that the training system is so short of pers that we have to keep hitting the field force â â€œ is there any feeling on the armoury floors that this is something that as leaders of all levels they should look at, making this sacrifice?  Not talking about the Class B call out as a source of income; rather hey I'm going to take a semester off school to work at a area training center/CTC cause I have something valuable that I can pass on?  That you're going to make the same level of sacrifice to your job/family/regular life that you would to go overseas to help out those who will go after you.


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## X Royal (13 Sep 2005)

IPC10 said:
			
		

> Not talking about the Class B call out as a source of income; rather hey I'm going to take a semester off school to work at a area training center/CTC cause I have something valuable that I can pass on?   That you're going to make the same level of sacrifice to your job/family/regular life that you would to go overseas to help out those who will go after you.




So the reservist is a student. Let realality kick in - most NCO'S in the reserves (those who would be instructors) are no longer students but people with families, responsibilities & jobs. Its not taking a semester off of school but quiting a job a possiblly shuting future doors.


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## Fishbone Jones (13 Sep 2005)

IPC10 said:
			
		

> Question remains do any reservists above the rank of Cpl feel there is any professional obligation on their part to make the same level of sacrifice that they would have to for an overseas deployment to give their operational experience to the training system outside of their home unit?



So now you expect them to take a third year off their regular job, a third vacation away from their family on top of what they've already given? 

It does happen BTW. I returned from Roto 0 in Feb, completed my leave in March and was instructor at WATC from May-July then returned to Ontario and Pet as an O/C in Aug. After doing the GWagon T the T course in Borden at the beginning of Aug.

So yeah, we do do it. I'm not an anomaly, in the system. That's your answer, and this is getting close to the bashing and bullshit meter. Dress it up how you want it, but everything you've posted in this thread is just a cheap shot against the Reserves, and unless you do a real good job of explaining exactly what your motive is, it's going to get binned in that same bucket of hypocrisy and bitterness that they all end up in.


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## the 48th regulator (13 Sep 2005)

> Someone tell me that the average reservist who wants a tour isn't doing it for the gong, or the money, or the experience



You got me to a tee on All three points.   And, I sacrificed a hell of a lot earning all three of those, more than you ever have, or for that matter ever will.

Now go shock and awe your cribbage team, instead of us.

dileas

tess


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## Bruce Monkhouse (13 Sep 2005)

Quote,
I know it's not the same â â€œ _no medals, no tour money on the surface_, no new challenges and experiences (which is a big part of why people join IMHO).  

Damn, I knew I wasted that 10 years of my life..... :


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## Dissident (13 Sep 2005)

Reserviste are hampered in their efforts to be instructor or students on course by the very nature of the system.

Booking time off is not always easy for your civy job. Unbooking time off can be regarded very negatively, especially if you do it repeadedly.

Rare are troops who can make themselved available on the short time fuse that is usually the SOP for summer tasking/courses. 

This has been discussed with much more detail and clarity, by much more knowledgeble people in another thread somewhere on here.


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## Jarnhamar (13 Sep 2005)

> Shock and awe â â€œ original post intended to piss everyone off worked.



 Good job Troll.



> Now go shock and awe your cribbage team, instead of us.
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess



here here.




> Question remains â â€œ do any reservists....



Heres a question - Do people who post here with the intention of pissing off other posters on purpose deserve a serious response?


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## Infanteer (14 Sep 2005)

:boring:

I think there was something interesting to discuss here, but the delivery and subsequent follow up sucked ass.

signed, 
Selfish Prick


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## Spanky (14 Sep 2005)

Part of what he sees as a problem can be explained this way.  An employee of a civvie company can only go to the well so often with requests for time off.  Is the reservist going to go to their boss every summer with requests for time off?  Not likely, considering that is prime vacation time for the other employees as well.  Can they go to their employer and get an entire year off to go on a tour, likely a one time thing?  More likely, considering the employer knows it's for a full year and can adjust accordingly.  The experience and training the reservist gets on the tour is not wasted.  It is used on the armoury floor on a continual basis.


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## downinOZ (14 Sep 2005)

In the three training centres I was employed at after a tour, and the one year of training nights and exercises at my unit, plus the two years of training nights and exercises at a unit I was attached to, I noticed the majority of instructors who were teaching reserves were reservists.  For focus' sake, let's not discuss the value of weekend BMQ and SQ courses.  How many reg force personnel had a hand in those courses?  Most of the RSS staff, I think, but not too much more (no Btns in BC and Sask, and at CFSME, reservists did driving, enemy force, course admin, and had responsibility for other aspects of Mil-Occ training).  Isn't that part of the commitment in getting a posting to a reserve unit?  What kinds of positions is the army generally in short supply of?  Clerks?  Supply?  Not exactly the testosterone-filled challenge I was looking for when I joined.  I can't comment on the officer side, except that I only had one platoon/troop commander who was reg force.  Our unit DCO (RSS), who organized a QL2/QL3 engineer course, was excellent to work for, and made working above what was required well worth the effort, by working as hard as we did, and supporting our training.  Very professional.  All the section commanders had previous tour experience.  I would say that my peers in the engineers who have had tours have definitely put back into the training of other reservists.  I worked with an infantry regiment for two years, and don't remember a single troop going without a summer tasking, if they could afford the time to do so.  I remember troops begging to go on field force, course staff, even support tasks.  The NCO's, including me, made a big deal about the benefits of those taskings and that was embraced by those troops - a driver wheel course, and then a two month tasking - field training, and name goes to top for consideration for recce courses, etc...  Maybe your experience was with a very selfish unit - lots of university students who joined the reserves for a hobby/to eat/fun/patriotic-regimental loyalty, and continued their hobby/fun/patriotic-regimental duty while pursuing their career.  A tour provides experiences for a reservist that still transfer into their civilian life on a regular basis - appreciation of green grass that YOU CAN WALK ON, respect for conflict resolution WITHOUT A GUN, continuing belief that Canada is a good place to live and worth contributing to - doctor, teacher, parent etc...

I am glad that you recognised the competition aspect of _being selected_ to go to work-up training towards a tour.  It's been discussed elsewhere that the best soldiers are not always the available soldiers.  My experience was that at the end of the tour, telling the difference between a reservist and reg force pers was ...difficult at best.  Who loses on that one?  And which was the bigger loss, if there was a loss?   6 months back in the training system for a reservist?  What about running unit and regional courses?  What about deploying on two-week exercises?  What about instructing/filling vacancies at Schools (RETS), or the comms schools, or as mentioned before, on a weekly/weekend basis?  Advancement is an opportunity.  It's sad to see an officer who views advancement as something that in the reserves, just happens (haven't seen too many acting-lacking in reserve world).  And not to belittle anyone who doesn't, but there is definitely a level of respect for those who walk around three or four times a year with some hardware on their chest.  According to principles of leadership, seeking advancement/responsibility leads to better development of self and others around you.  And I would argue that somewhere down the track, one reservist who teaches on three or four courses and spreads his/her experience and knowledge makes up for the opportunity afforded them by being on a tour.  One reservist who is able to instruct some skill learned during work-up training at least exposes other soldiers to that skill, which they otherwise, wouldn't receive.  Ambush drills while in a truck?  Not sure if that's in BMQ/SQ yet.  Current doctrine on route-proving/camp security?  Hmmm, haven't heard of that one being introduced and updated.  Someone else can address that.  Units wouldn't be exposed, wouldn't even LOOK like they have an inkling if that training wasn't passed on from tour personnel.  
Chimo.


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## Craig B (14 Sep 2005)

Selfishness , eh ? 

Well , let me see . When I was a young Gunner in the mid 1980's I was willing to go on tours . But there were no tours except CFE ( 2 guys every decade or so ) plus Cyprus ( 4 guys every decade , be prepared to do lots of GD ) . Regular Force didn't really want Militia guys taking _their_ jobs . 

Years went by , got married , had kids and got a full time job .

All of a sudden , lots of tours . Yugo , Haiti etc . 

Guess what ? 

I couldn't go , had responsibilities . 

Tours continue . Reg's short of manpower . All of a sudden Militia guys are wanted .

Where were the tours when I needed them ?

Too little , too late .

Craig


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## KevinB (14 Sep 2005)

Craig,

 Looking at your post all I see is the "me me me" attitude that the poster mentioned intiailly.

I have a family - a son, and an ex wife.  I don't see anyone (specifically) in the regs whinning that tours are too awkward for us?


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## 48Highlander (14 Sep 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> Craig,
> 
> Looking at your post all I see is the "me me me" attitude that the poster mentioned intiailly.
> 
> I have a family - a son, and an ex wife.   I don't see anyone (specifically) in the regs whinning that tours are too awkward for us?



You're not going to screw up your career by going on tour.  For a reserveist, THAT is the hardest aspect of going on tour.  Very few employers would be willing to wait a year for you to get back.


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## Michael Dorosh (14 Sep 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> Craig,
> 
> Looking at your post all I see is the "me me me" attitude that the poster mentioned intiailly.
> 
> I have a family - a son, and an ex wife.   I don't see anyone (specifically) in the regs whinning that tours are too awkward for us?



Kevin is right, here.  I had to laugh when I read that post - saying reservists are not selfish and then complaining about how the Army isn't serving up tours on a platter was just plain funny.

Again, I'll reiterate what I said in the other thread.  The Army doesn't exist just so guys can go on six month tours, regular or reserve.  I don't understand where all this sense of entitlement comes from - I guess we really are a reflection of society. The Army should have bigger goals than just sending individuals on tours.  

Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country...


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## Scoobie Newbie (14 Sep 2005)

Asking why you have no tours which is largely politics and world events is a little silly don't you think.

Kev I'll let you know how many vacancies there are after the DAG do to guys pussing out.


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## KevinB (14 Sep 2005)

Don't get me wrong I KNOW there are many selfish reg force people - you should have seen as soons as the tax break for Afghan came out...


You'd have thought that they exumed crypts the way some people you'd thought got out years ago under covered some rock and made incredible pains to get on the tours...


Edit IF they got the damn TF crap canned units could then acquire and train the reservists they need on an AS NEEDED basis...

 I think they should offer Class C contracts for reservists a year at a time to keep reg Bn's at full strenght and then give extension (if the reservists want) if the unit goes on tour.  As well steamline the CT provisions for reservist ont he class C for seamless integration into the regs...


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## Aries (14 Sep 2005)

I honestly think that if the reservists are real hardcore and love giving so much to the betterment of the forces, why not join the Regs?

I just can't wrap my mind around it, if your already willing to leave they're families and sacrifice holidays, then why not do it full time?
Don't cry when some people who do it every day and knew the risks and still do it every day act a little hostile.

I take it a little personally, because i did all the work up training and mission specific stuff for the TAT going to kandahar last april. And three of us reg force privates got bumped for three reserve privates.

I don't know about any other units, but here at CFJoint Signal Regiment, it happens all the time....in fact it's a condition of reservist contracts. You can imagine how many times i've seen a good to go reg get subbed for one of these "filler" reserve types.

It's aggravating to no end!


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## Michael Dorosh (14 Sep 2005)

Aries said:
			
		

> I honestly think that if the reservists are real hardcore and love giving so much to the betterment of the forces, why not join the Regs?
> 
> I just can't wrap my mind around it, if your already willing to leave they're families and sacrifice holidays, then why not do it full time?
> Don't cry when some people who do it every day and knew the risks and still do it every day act a little hostile.



It's not the lifestyle they want, that's why.  If a guy has a civvie career he really loves, why would he want to join a peacetime Army and do three years of stuff he has no interest in, or do three years without earning a pension?  It's not that tough to figure out.  If dude wants to sharpen skates for a living, and is drawing a pension as a skate sharpener, why would he give it up for a three year BE and not accumulate any pensionable time?  Or join the regs for 20 years and do something he doesn't like as much?

How tough is that to understand, really?


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## Infanteer (14 Sep 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> I think they should offer Class C contracts for reservists a year at a time to keep reg Bn's at full strenght and then give extension (if the reservists want) if the unit goes on tour.   As well steamline the CT provisions for reservist ont he class C for seamless integration into the regs...



That's one of the best suggestions I've seen yet.



			
				Aries said:
			
		

> I honestly think that if the reservists are real hardcore and love giving so much to the betterment of the forces, why not join the Regs?



Ok, I'll give you my story - I went on a tour because it was offered.  I liked my part-time job, thought I was pretty decent at it, and made the cut.  When it was done, I had to get back to school and finish up.  Sound plausible.

There are many reasons that a guy may not want to come Reg - I've seen them all.  Perhaps his spouse has the better job.  Perhaps HE has a better job (CEO or something).  Maybe he is a cop, and he'll be putting on the spurs as soon as he returns from his duty overseas.  Perhaps he is a reg force guy with 3 tours and he got into the reserves after getting out, and felt like taking another crack at things.

Irregardless of reasons, there are some good guys in the reserves, and most stick their hand up when the C-of-C asks for help.  It is politicians and generals making the decision on how to employ the Reserves, so don't shoot at the guys at the bottom for volunteering when asked.


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## Sig_Des (14 Sep 2005)

When taskings and tours come in, I put my name in for them..I'd like the experience of a tour...

now, I've put my name in for a couple of tours, most recently ROTO 86 to DANACA...didn't get it, and that's fine...but I don't go around blanketing the chain with memos hunting for tours...

If they ask who's interested in going, sure I'll say yes...but I'm not crying because somebody else got it, whether it be reg or res.

I personally don't know any Res guys who sit in a back room rubbing their hands together scheming about how to bump a reg force guy of his tour. Keep in mind that us "toons" or "rentals" as some of you call us, ARE an integral part of the forces, and it's nice for that to be noted, as opposed to "Those damned reservists taking our jobs"

now, offering class C contracts for a year at a time to keep reg Bn's at full strenght, absolutely, I would put my name in...a lot of us want to be used in a rewarding manner, be it tour, tasking, or instructor..and please don't just pigeon-hole all of us as a bunch of snivelling, tour-coveting babies..

Keep in mind that ALL soldiers b****, not just reservists...


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## Craig B (14 Sep 2005)

Sorry if my post sounded whinny . 

The point I was trying to make is that until recently ( Last 8 years or so ? ) there were no tours for Reservists . Why ? IMO because Reg Force units were at close to full strength and everyone wanted to go . Remember , in those days , tours were few and far between even for the Regs .

If the Army in general , at that time ( 80's and early '90's ) had ensured that say 10% of a tour was staffed by reservists we would have brought a lot of knowledge back to our units . That would have paid off _now_ . The new guys going on tour _now_ would be a step above due to our experiences . 

Just another case of not investing in the future . 



> I think they should offer Class C contracts for reservists a year at a time to keep reg Bn's at full strenght and then give extension (if the reservists want) if the unit goes on tour.



This is being done now . Finally. The VanDoos are the pilot project for this . 

I hope that Reserve units start investing in their future leaders by sending them on these call outs , as opposed to just sending someone who is between jobs or looking to take a year off of school .



> I have a family - a son, and an ex wife.   I don't see anyone (specifically) in the regs whining that tours are too awkward for us?



Kevin , not here you don't . I have heard it first hand in Valcartier and seen the results . People just don't sign on again , or get a letter from the Chaplin , etc . It does happen . I'm sure you know of people like this . 

Craig


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## X Royal (14 Sep 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> Craig,
> 
> Looking at your post all I see is the "me me me" attitude that the poster mentioned intiailly.
> 
> I have a family - a son, and an ex wife.   I don't see anyone (specifically) in the regs whinning that tours are too awkward for us?



Kevin I have to disagree with you. All Craig stated was during the given time span tours for reserves were few & far between.(True)
He stated at the time he could of been avalible oppertunities were few.
Now that things have changed his life has also. Life goes on.(Also true)
As for not seeing anyone (specifically) in the regs. whinning that tours are to awkward for them, during my tour in Cyprus 89/90 I only heard such complaints from some of the regs. These were mostly younger soldiers who had aprox. 1 1/2 to 2 1/4 years in. As for the reserves all were volunteers for the tour so no complaints should of been expected.
Part of the high turnover in the regs. is in part due to the high ammount of tours they are being sent on. This quite often happens at your jnr & snr nco level.
Some of these people have moved to the reserves & continue to serve where they can manage thier lives and family under terms more acceptable to them and thier families.

Pro Patria


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## GO!!! (14 Sep 2005)

Seeing as that a complaint w/o a solution is just a bitch,

Here's a couple of solutions to the problems complaints outlined here.

If you did'nt go for the medal or the money, don't wear it, and give the $ to a womens shelter. No one is making you keep it. 

To address the "experience" that militia mbrs need, and can pass on to their units - make a mandatory retention period post tour - 12 months or so, or maybe staff on a set number of related courses. That way, the experience gained could e taken advantage of in a truly concrete and quantitative measure, as opposed to a simple allegation of qualitative improvement. 

While I agree that reservists need legislated job protection, if they are to get it, there has to be some give from them too, in the form of mandatory weeks of trg, and minimum attendance levels. Can't do it? The economy is hot. The simple fact is that we need soldiers who are trained and able to be deployed when the CF needs them, not just when it is convenient. If your job at home is protected, your family commitments are the same as they are in the regs, no excuses. If any of this is too restrictive, I'd like to know how, because the whole idea of being a soldier is working as a team for a goal unachievable alone. When some members of the team are permitted more priviliges, and are asked less of, the team is now two seperate parts. So no, you are not part of the same army.

Mandatory callouts. (Without invoking the EM/War Act)The army needs you, and you are'nt sick? You go, or go to jail, just like the regs that you claim to equal. If your jobs at home are protected, this should not be an issue - after all - you serve Canada - right?

And finally, the primary opposition to these propositions will be that it will drive the numbers of reservists down, and provide a disincentive to become a reservist. If this is the case, maybe another line of work would be more suitable. Not everyone is cut out for military life, and no - one owes you a living, regular or reserve.

Thoughts?


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## jmackenzie_15 (14 Sep 2005)

I don't know what reserve units you guys are coming from, and what kind of people comprise them, but the core of my battallion are high school and university students filling up the Pte - Cpl roles.

The NCO's are half reg RSS staff troops assigned to our unit, or guys that have simply been in forever, and have had this, as well as many mulitple part time jobs going from monthly payment to payment.

Most of the officers in my unit have various civilian jobs, as well as the reserves.(Schoolteacher, Engineer etc)


In regard to the tour supposedly coming up , that I started a thread on earlier, I would say 90% of our Ptes and Cpls have absolutely no intention of going anywhere, and would sooner avoid it altogether than "be selfish" and attempt to steal jobs from regF soldiers.
Most of them have schooling or other jobs they are more committed to, or simply just arent ready or dont want that type of long term committment to the army.

All of the guys that I know, that want to go on tour including myself, primarily just work in the reserves, are between jobs, or really just have no reason NOT to go.. some of them really want to, for an opportunity to do their job, like myself.

This mentality that reservists are all gimme gimme's and want tours, where I come from at least, is all but non existant.
Maybe 25% of the troops would consider going on tour.

My 2c from my experience in my battallion... I can't speak for others, but I found that generalization earlier to be puzzling.


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## 54/102 CEF (14 Sep 2005)

Its a supply and demand thing - for the next several years the demand is greater than supply for manpower to go overseas.

Set your mind to it and it will happen! 

At the same time keep a sense of balance

For reservists - 

Your primary responsibilities are

School
Getting qualified for a trade or profession
Family
Army

In that order - if none of these apply to you what are you even doing in uniform?

Hey I only need 2 more months somewhere with flies and creepy bars and crappy R and R options and I could get the SSF Gong too! 

But I choose to let the younguns go to the base that don't exist and get the experience.

PS: You want give back? How about this for a debating thread?

The reg force is killing itself not to put all reserves working full time on Class C. Time to backdate the great backwards step they took in April 2003 when they canned Class C and opened the gates to ex reg double dippers. 

I am guessing this is coming -  as the economy will not go south for an extended period of time and the days of wholesale recruiting grade 10 grads are long over. The flip side of that is lots of reg force serving only 3 year terms so the staffs and leadership get a full time career. Pay sucks big time cash - so logically give the boys two tours and kick them out before they cost - higher wages - moving costs - medical costs as they get older and pension costs when they turn geezer.

I can think of no more divisive issue than reserve augmentees doing the same job in the same unit under the QR and Os and CFAOS which give no 15% discount on adherence to these regulations.

EG: I see some shady folks doing shady things like scoping out DND locations or loading weapons into their cars - do I report it or say - naw I`m on my 15% discount time? Of course I report it! But as some Navy Officer told me on my Class C redress - we don't expect the same out of you..... then I quoted the entire QR and Os back at him.

We`ll see - if the Brits and Americans can do it - we can too.


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## X Royal (14 Sep 2005)

jmackenzie_15 said:
			
		

> I don't know what reserve units you guys are coming from, and what kind of people comprise them, but the core of my battallion are high school and university students filling up the Pte - Cpl roles.
> 
> The NCO's are half reg RSS staff troops assigned to our unit, or guys that have simply been in forever, and have had this, as well as many mulitple part time jobs going from monthly payment to payment.
> 
> Most of the officers in my unit have various civilian jobs, as well as the reserves.(Schoolteacher, Engineer etc)



Your unit must be drastically short on NCO's if RSS make up 1/2 of them. And to categorize the reserve NCO's as people who live from month to month on mulitiple part time jobs sure would not earn you any respect in most units. It could apply to some but I highly doubt it is representitive of the great majority of reserve NCO's. When I was a reserve NCO our unit had reserve NCO's who were police officers, bylaw officers, buisness owners, fireman, machinists and factory workers to name some long time jobs. We also had a few retired reg. force NCO's.

Pro Patria


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## mdh (14 Sep 2005)

Just as a point of comparison: the UK's Territorial Army is facing similar issues.   The war in Iraq has created a huge strain on the British regs to the point where some 30 per cent of its deployed forces are drawn from the TA.   The British government can force a TA to deploy once every three years for six months - a measure mitigated by job protection legislation. 

However this has generated considerable controversy since many TAs simply cannot afford to be forcibly mobilized every three years. Moreover TA units are seeing the opposite phenomenon: people signing up only for the tour who aren't especially interested in the traditional sensibilities of the TA and its role as a local community institution. Anyone interested can follow some of this on the British equivalent of this site www.arrse.co.uk/

Here is John Keegan's take on the issue:



> The British contribution to the war in Iraq has been maintained only by committing about 30 per cent of the Territorial Army. It is not the role of the Territorials to make good deficiencies in the regular forces during times of general peace. The calls made upon Territorials, though cheerfully met, so interfere with their civilian occupations that recruiting is adversely affected. If Labour persists in this trend, it will end by doing serious damage to our reserve structure and also leaving our regular forces even shorter of operational manpower.



Keegan was making the point that reserve forces are not designed for constant deployment - so I don't think GO!!!'s recommendations would work over the long term. 

IMHO the crux of the issue is stark: if you want a reserve force of citizen soldiers you must have flexibility in their terms of service. If you don't want to provide that flexibility and insist on measures that refuse to recognize civilian commitments, you might want to consider abolition of the reserve force and a re-allocation of its resources to the regs.

Overall I like to think of the militia as a _ movement_ more than just a reserve force (a cultural artifact?) - it continues to preserve some martial traditions in our communities which would rapidly disappear without their presence.

cheers, mdh


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## Haggis (14 Sep 2005)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> Here's a couple of solutions to the problems complaints outlined here.



Wanna work for DMEP?  



			
				GO!!! said:
			
		

> While I agree that reservists need legislated job protection, if they are to get it, there has to be some give from them too, in the form of mandatory weeks of trg, and minimum attendance levels. Can't do it? The economy is hot. The simple fact is that we need soldiers who are trained and able to be deployed when the CF needs them, not just when it is convenient. If your job at home is protected, your family commitments are the same as they are in the regs, no excuses. If any of this is too restrictive, I'd like to know how, because the whole idea of being a soldier is working as a team for a goal unachievable alone. When some members of the team are permitted more priviliges, and are asked less of, the team is now two seperate parts. So no, you are not part of the same army.



Agreed, but legislated job protection is a double edged sword.  I have many friends in the US military, from the SF community to the NG.  Job protection was a super idea immediately post 9-11.  As the conflicts dragged on, employers wer asked to step up to the plate repeatedly.  Not only is the employer feeling the bite of Spc Bloggins going back to Iraq for round 3, but Bloggin's co-workers feel it too.  Many US employers simply quit hiring Reservists.  That hurts the Reservist entering the workforce or the retiring "vet" who joins the Reserves after their hitch was up.  Canada uses the voluntary employer support approach and it works somewhat as we hoped.  Lots of room for improvement.



			
				GO!!! said:
			
		

> Mandatory callouts. (Without invoking the EM/War Act)The army needs you, and you are'nt sick? You go, or go to jail, just like the regs that you claim to equal. If your jobs at home are protected, this should not be an issue - after all - you serve Canada - right?



Right.    If the Reservist has something to come home to and IF the Army doesn't come calling again and again (see my comment above)  it couild work, but it's not a long term solution.  Offering incentives to *employers* would also be a good idea.  Compensate and reward supportive employers in a manner that not only gets them recognition but benefits their bottom line



			
				GO!!! said:
			
		

> And finally, the primary opposition to these propositions will be that it will drive the numbers of reservists down, and provide a disincentive to become a reservist. If this is the case, maybe another line of work would be more suitable. Not everyone is cut out for military life, and no - one owes you a living, regular or reserve.



There are many more incentives to become a Reservist and they're getting better all the time.  What has to happen is that Reservists have to be told UP FRONT and EARLY that they may deploy and that it will be a condition of employment backed up by protective and enabling legislation.

There was a recent thread on Reserve Terms of Service ... Flexible Engagements, I think.   Maybe these two threads should be merged....?


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## KevinB (14 Sep 2005)

Well maybe we should wake up and realize we are in a war.

Mobilize the Militia - equip them and train then and sent them off.


Really have to puke at Reg and Res bitches about deployment -- I have US buddys that have been home about 6 months in 3 years.  Look at the CAG guys - they get home for leave and thats basically it - the unit is deemed deployed (as in for ever and ever amen).

Even NG guys are out for 18 or so months.


If employers in the US are found out to be discriminating against reservists there is hell to pay.


Haggis - I'm baffled, GO!!! came up with a solution to the bitches that some here are using a a rather weak crutch for tours.

Quid Pro Quo - You get a tour - the system has a right to expect nay demand some sort of ROI.  If it is the solider/NCO being mandated to teach or staff a few courses - that is only fair.
 Plus then the experience that everyone is bemoaning will transfer over.

What I have seen it primarily three types of reservists on tours.
 1) I did it - I hated the unit whatever and like fuck am I ever doign ti again - or I am getting out
 2) I did it - I love it I am joining the regs
 3) I did it - I am staying on my Class B until the next tour...

 #3 has potential to spin off for training - but often is employed in a position that has nothign to do with his tour employment.


I dont see any REAL bashing here - just and honest attempt to get a grassroots fix to a broken system (on both ends)

 If we come to a solution maybe we can effect some sort of sit up and notice in DND - heck enough "reporters" surf this site, maybe they can write us a solution  :


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## Brad Sallows (14 Sep 2005)

Here we go again.

Exactly how large do you imagine to be the pool of people whose lifestyle between the ages of 18 and 58 allows them to drop out for a few months to a year at a time, several times over the course of that period?

The militia as we know it and have it exists to serve during emergencies.  By happy circumstance, some portion of it is available to augment non-emergency missions as an _exception_ to their working lives, usually near the outset.  The idealized half-civilian, half-army genus exists only in small numbers.

What the army needs is more soldiers to fill a BE and then quit or CT to the reserves.


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## Craig B (14 Sep 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> Well maybe we should wake up and realize we are in a war.
> 
> Mobilize the Militia - equip them and train then and sent them off.



Thats not such a crazy idea ,but I think its too late now . Would have worked the day after 9/11 . 



> Even NG guys are out for 18 or so months.



Yep , and the NG is going to pay for this big time . Its going to take 20yrs to rebuild the US NG and Reserve system .



> If employers in the US are found out to be discriminating against reservists there is heck to pay.



The operative words there are " found out " . Can't raise heck if you can't prove it . Companies are , mostly , real good at CYA when it comes to discrimination . 



> Quid Pro Quo - You get a tour - the system has a right to expect nay demand some sort of ROI.   If it is the solider/NCO being mandated to teach or staff a few courses - that is only fair.
> Plus then the experience that everyone is bemoaning will transfer over.



Excellent idea . GO!!!!! mentioned 12 months after a tour , but I think thats quite long . Maybe 1 summer training cycle ( 3 months ) 




> I dont see any REAL bashing here - just and honest attempt to get a grassroots fix to a broken system (on both ends)



Agreed . Lots of us ( Me included ) can't know every problem from both sides of the coin .

Craig


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## Fishbone Jones (14 Sep 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> I dont see any REAL bashing here - just and honest attempt to get a grassroots fix to a broken system (on both ends)



Well I'm seeing lots. It's boiling down to the fact that all Reservists are shitbirds and, as usual, will never be worthy enough for you guys no matter what. The point your all missing, is that the Reservists that go, don't just show up at the gate looking for a job. The offer is made by someone much higher, and all the Reservists are doing is volunteering when asked. Got a problem with Res on tour, go bitch to the CDS, he's the decision guy. Quit slagging the Res for the inadequacies of a system they can't change any more than you can.

And while your complaining about young guys in the Battalion getting bumped by Res, how bout some blame all the pseudo professional POS Reg pogues who you couldn't pry from their desks with C4. Now that the tours are tax free they're coming out of the baseboards like cockroaches after dark. Maybe if you Regs cut down on the overbloated logistics tail full of Reg force tourists, the gunfighters could get a spot.

This thread is quickly heading for that special bin we keep trying to screw the lid on.


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## the 48th regulator (14 Sep 2005)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Well I'm seeing lots. It's boiling down to the fact that all Reservists are shitbirds and, as usual, will never be worthy enough for you guys no matter what. The point your all missing, is that the Reservists that go, don't just show up at the gate looking for a job. The offer is made by someone much higher, and all the Reservists are doing is volunteering when asked. Got a problem with Res on tour, go bitch to the CDS, he's the decision guy. Quit slagging the Res for the inadequacies of a system they can't change any more than you can.
> 
> And while your complaining about young guys in the Battalion getting bumped by Res, how bout some blame all the pseudo professional POS Reg pogues who you couldn't pry from their desks with C4. Now that the tours are tax free they're coming out of the baseboards like cockroaches after dark. Maybe if you Regs cut down on the overbloated logistics tail full of Reg force tourists, the gunfighters could get a spot.
> 
> This thread is quickly heading for that special bin we keep trying to screw the lid on.



Thank you my Brother Thank you

dileas

tess


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## Scoobie Newbie (14 Sep 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> Don't get me wrong I KNOW there are many selfish reg force people - you should have seen as soons as the tax break for Afghan came out...
> 
> 
> You'd have thought that they exumed crypts the way some people you'd thought got out years ago under covered some rock and made incredible pains to get on the tours...
> ...



A reg force admitting in a previous post about the deadwood.  

I think a lot of us have done reserves prior to going reg and therefore shouldn't be painted with a broad brush and may have some insight being on both sides.


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## KevinB (14 Sep 2005)

> And while your complaining about young guys in the Battalion getting bumped by Res, how bout some blame all the pseudo professional POS Reg pogues who you couldn't pry from their desks with C4. Now that the tours are tax free they're coming out of the baseboards like cockroaches after dark. Maybe if you Regs cut down on the overbloated logistics tail full of Reg force tourists, the gunfighters could get a spot.



We've mentioned a lot of deadwood has resurfaced.

 I don't do TO&E's if I did we'd be out shooting for about two weeks until everthing was broken and we were out of ammo, and then people realise I just brought troops with guns   ;D

 I think both sides realise they are not perfect - where is the happy medium?

 I know GO!!! got a rotten F over on RotoII thanks to some pinhead who thought that we should add more deadwood to NSE and farm out our force protection to foreigners...
 Heck we trained for Op Cobra (cancelled) Haiti (stolen) and Rwanda (watered down then cancelled).

There are some pretty senior posters and I would guess even more senior lurkers here.

 The issue has gotten to do with the fact the Res is to augment the Reg's - as such it should be augmentation when needed.   That call shoudl be up to the unit CO, who looks at his numbers knows via OC and CSM's how many bodies they are short or bodies that should not go, then back fill with reservists.
 IF the theatre is deemed to "HOT" for reservists to deploy, we need to re-evaualte the training we give to reserves or the added value we give to their lives.

 That is a workable solution that will not cause resentment.

Mandating a %age of reservists when there are regulars to fill the spots - that is problem causing.


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## Fishbone Jones (14 Sep 2005)

CFL said:
			
		

> I think a lot of us have done reserves prior to going reg and therefore shouldn't be painted with a broad brush and may have some insight being on both sides.



Yes we have, and neither side has a lock on grifters and pogues.



			
				CFL said:
			
		

> A reg force admitting in a previous post about the deadwood.





			
				KevinB said:
			
		

> We've mentioned a lot of deadwood has resurfaced.



Some others here keep bringing up the same tired diatribes all the time. Why can't I?



			
				KevinB said:
			
		

> I think both sides realise they are not perfect - where is the happy medium?
> 
> Agreed Kev and I just don't know. What I do know though is that bashing each other isn't going to solve it.
> 
> ...



And with Kev's astuteness think it's time for this to go bye bye. (again) I'll leave it til 22:30.


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## Blakey (14 Sep 2005)

> why would he want to join a peacetime Army and do three years of stuff he has no interest in,


Thats an interesting comment, why then join the reserves or militia, if one had _no interset_ in doing it?

EDIT:
Or was it just that most had, "no interst in doing it full time"?, which I think was the case.


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## Scoobie Newbie (14 Sep 2005)

"Some others here keep bringing up the same tired diatribes all the time. Why can't I?"
'cause your staff and held to a higher power ;D


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## Fishbone Jones (14 Sep 2005)

CFL said:
			
		

> "Some others here keep bringing up the same tired diatribes all the time. Why can't I?"
> 'cause your staff and held to a higher power ;D



And with that







Time to tap dance this puppy outta here.


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