# "Irregular" / extended working hours



## Milhouser911 (24 Oct 2018)

Good evening

I'm searching for a definition of what constitutes "Irregular Hours" with respect to the CFTDI - every time I try to submit a meal or mileage claim, I'm being told that the CFTDI does not apply because it's not "irregular hours".   This includes working split shifts, 13 hour days, etc.

I can find no definition of "regular hours" or "irregular hours" in any literature.  My gut feeling is that the "regular hours" for a unit should be laid out in base/unit standing orders, and that anything that differs from these would be considered "irregular", but my unit doesn't have BSO's or USO's.  

In short, my crew is RSS/IS for a reserve unit and working 0900-1600, and then returning to work for 1900-2200 hrs.  I have submitted a memo requesting either a meal claim (if we're expected to remain at work during the 1600-1900 hrs window) or a mileage claim for the second trip to work (if we are expected to return home for the meal, and then return to work).  I'm being told that because this split shift does not constitute "irregular hours" that the instructions in the CFTDI do not apply.  

It's very difficult to gauge the validity of this argument without a definition of "irregular hours", so if anyone is able to shine some light on this for me, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for your help,

Milhouse


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## mariomike (24 Oct 2018)

Milhouser911 said:
			
		

> In short, my crew is RSS/IS for a reserve unit and working 0900-1600, and then returning to work for 1900-2200 hrs.



For reference to the discussion,

RegF Support Staff (RSS) - Reserve Trg hours [Merged] 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/103077.0
4 pages.


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## Milhouser911 (24 Oct 2018)

Thanks for the referral.  I've read that discussion and it's helpful from a time accounting perspective, but it doesn't cover any CTFDI instructions in terms of meals or mileage.

Thanks,

Milhouse


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## mariomike (24 Oct 2018)

You are welcome.  

Hopefully, the answer may help other RegF Support Staff (RSS).


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## ballz (24 Oct 2018)

IAW CFAO 36-14, if you are forced to work over dinner, you are entitled to a meal.

IAW the CFTDTIs, 5.24, Recall to workplace, it seems to have nothing to do with "irregular hours" or not... you are only expected to come to work once per 24 hour period.



> 5.24 — RECALL TO WORKPLACE 5.24 — RAPPEL AU TRAVAIL
> Subject to instruction 5.20 (General), a member
> who is recalled from home to the member’s
> workplace is — if the recall is the second trip to the
> ...




This is a common thing with RSS guys... I'm surprised no one has grieved it yet. They need to piss or get off the pot. Either you are dismissed at 1600 and being recalled to work, or you are getting a meal claim since you are working from 0800 - 2200. If they say neither, grieve it and site the two policies referenced.


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## Milhouser911 (24 Oct 2018)

Thanks for the info, that's exactly my opinion. I have asked about it in the past and been told 'no', so I decided to submit a memo requesting permission to claim one or the other, with exactly those references, so that I could get the denial in writing. 

I was told 'if you submit this, you're going to lose credibility with the CoC, so I'm giving you a chance to withdraw this memo' by the adj.

Leadership at its finest.


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## ballz (24 Oct 2018)

Milhouser911 said:
			
		

> Thanks for the info, that's exactly my opinion. I have asked about it in the past and been told 'no', so I decided to submit a memo requesting permission to claim one or the other, with exactly those references, so that I could get the denial in writing.
> 
> I was told 'if you submit this, you're going to lose credibility with the CoC, so I'm giving you a chance to withdraw this memo' by the adj.
> 
> Leadership at its finest.



The Adjt should be considering how much credibility the CoC has if they're trying to make people do stuff without honouring the entitlements that go along with it.

If I were a CO and found out I was authorized to give more support to a member who I am asking a lot of of... I'd be happy about it.


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## blacktriangle (24 Oct 2018)

The CAF is obsessed with making policy. Following policy, however...


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## Eye In The Sky (24 Oct 2018)

If the CO of your unit doesn't publish normal working hours, how could they say you were AWOL if you were late?

I worked at a CBGHQ years ago;  we also worked the CL A parade day with a split shift (Thursday) from 0800-1500 and then 1900-2200 plus 1 x weekend a month (0800-1600) but *these were detailed in the the HQ ROs as our normal duty hours.  However, our ROs also stated that we were shiftworkers and as compensation had either Monday or Friday as a NWD (managed at the Branch Head level).  If we stayed and worked thru the 1500-1900 timeframe on Thursday it was "voluntary".  Going home was also a choice by the member.  There was a lunchroom and the ability to purchase a meal within the area of the place of duty.  From the CFTDI as it is today:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2.02 — DEFINITIONS — CFTDTI

“approving authority” means:
(c) in respect of irregular work hours a superior officer – or an approving authority under subparagraphs (a) and (b).

3.01 — APPLICATION

(1) (Regular Force) Subject to CFTDTI 3.02 (No Application), the CFTDTI apply to a member of the Regular Force who is, after 31 January 2011:

(a) either:
(i) on TD;
(ii) on an attached posting; or
(iii) in respect of CFTDTI Chapter 5 (Travel Within Place of Duty) only, ordered by an approving authority to work — or to be immediately available for work during — irregular hours inside the member’s place of duty;

3.02 — NO APPLICATION

The CFTDTI does not apply to a member:
(a) of the Regular Force who is entitled to relocation benefits of any kind, except a benefit under CBI 208.997 (Separation Expense);
(b) of the Reserve Force serving on Class “A”, “B”, or “C” Reserve Service, who refuses relocation benefits of any kind — except a benefit under CBI 208.997 (Separation Expense) — when offered relocation benefits for that Reserve Service; or
(c) who is both in receipt of a benefit under CBI 208.997 (Separation Expense) and at their principal residence, as defined in that instruction.

CHAPTER 5 TRAVEL WITHIN PLACE OF DUTY

5.01 — APPLICATION
Subject to Chapter 3 (Application of CFTDTI), this Chapter applies to a member who is:
b) ordered by an approving authority to work — or to be immediately available for work — during irregular hours inside the member’s place of duty.

5.18 — MEALS

(1) (Entitlement And Amount) Subject to paragraph (2), a member is entitled to be reimbursed for actual and reasonable meal expenses if all of the following conditions are satisfied:

(a) the member’s duty:
(i) prevents the member from having their normal meal; or
(ii) compels the member to have a meal at public expense;

(b) an approving authority considers it reasonable in the circumstances for the member to have a meal — other than a mess dinner, mixed dining-in, or other similar event — at public expense; and

(c) the member pays for a meal.

(2) (Interpretation) For greater certainty, the following examples of payable meal expenses shall be referred to when interpreting the entitlement under paragraph (1):
(a) an approving authority orders a member to work through a normal meal hour and the member is thereby required to spend more for the meal than would otherwise be the case;
(c) an approving authority orders a member to attend, a full-day conference — or seminar, training session, meeting, or public hearing —and:
(ii) there is no available meal facility (i.e. lunch room) for the member to eat a meal brought from home;

5.19 — MEALS — ADMINISTRATION

(1) (Application) This instruction applies to instruction 5.18 (Meals).

(2) (Meal Breaks) Every superior officer shall — unless it is exceptionally unreasonable to do so — provide a meal break to a member approximately midway through a regular work period or shift for the member to obtain a meal at the member’s expense.

(3) (Meals — Delay) A reasonably delayed meal hour does not by itself create an entitlement to a meal at Crown expense.

SECTION 3 — TRANSPORTATION BENEFITS

5.20 — GENERAL

(1) (No Entitlement) There is no entitlement for a member to be reimbursed any expenses for travel:

a) to and from their permanent workplace on a daily basis;
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the case you're in, unless you're not given the break at suppertime, I don't think the CFTDI allows for a meal claim and if you didn't get your break, the amount would be for 'actual and reasonable' expenses (whatever amount your receipt was for).

* maybe my read on the piece Ballz posted is wrong, but if the unit had these split-shift posted as Normal Working Duty Hours, you wouldn't technically be 'recalled' to work, much like folks who go home for lunch if they live close enough at my Sqn.  When would 'recall/irregular hours* apply?  Example I think of, you are the Duty NCO and get called in because an alarm is going off and you have to give access to the MPs.  

I might not interpreting it correctly though. 

Unrelated question;  with your split-shift day (once a week I assume), are you compensated for it with NWDs?  I know RSS used to get run into the ground sometimes as well without getting the compensation the current Leave Policy Manual directs.


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## Pusser (25 Oct 2018)

This is not a CFTDI issue, nor is it recall from leave.  However, CFAO 36-14 (as long and convoluted as it is) does provide entitlement to a meal public expense in this case.  Essentially, anyone working an extended day beyond the "normal" supper hour (usually defined by meal hours in the messes) is entitled to eat on the Queen's dime.  This meal should normally be provided from CAF sources (i.e. mess, hay box, box lunch); however, if this is not *practical*, reimbursement for actual and reasonable costs is authorized.  This  means the members need receipts and they only receive what they actually paid for the meal, up to the maximum claimable (i.e. TD meal rates) for the meal in question.


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## Milhouser911 (25 Oct 2018)

EITS:

This is the reason I'm looking for a definition of "irregular hours".  Story time:

I once submitted a TD claim for doing Base Duty in Wainwright.  According to the base orders, the duty cpl is ordered to stay in shacks for the night.  According to CFTDI 5.02, (2):

(2) (Entitlement and Amount) Subject to paragraphs (1) and (3), a member is entitled to be reimbursed for actual and reasonable expenses for accommodations if an approving authority orders the member into quarters or commercial accommodations.

and CFTDI 5.16:

5.16 — INCIDENTAL EXPENSE ALLOWANCE
A member — who is entitled under instruction 5.02 (Accommodation) — is entitled to an incidental expense allowance at the rate set out in the NJC Travel Directive for the location where the member was at the start of a day.

I submitted a TD claim based on these paras - it's black and white.  I'm ordered into shacks, I'm entitled to TD.  

This request was denied, on the basis of 5.01: 

Subject to Chapter 3 (Application of CFTDTI), this Chapter applies to a member who is:

b) ordered by an approving authority to work — or to be immediately available for work — during irregular hours inside the member’s place of duty

The CoC decided in its wisdom that working 0730 - 0830 (kitchen), reporting to your regular job, working 1130-1300 (kitchen), reporting to your regular job, working 1630-1830 (kitchen), and then sitting at the jr ranks from 1700-2300 or later, and then back to the kitchen for 0545, did not constitute "irregular hours" and thus eliminated any entitlement under the rest of the CFTDI.  They found some obscure "clarification" from Ottawa that flat out said "Base duty is not considered irregular hours, because they're the hours you've been ordered to work".  I wish I could find it, it's a flat-out denial of reality.

This case now, I'm using 5.18

5.18 — MEALS
(1) (Entitlement And Amount) Subject to paragraph (2), a member is entitled to be reimbursed for actual and reasonable meal expenses if all of the following conditions are satisfied:
      (a) the member’s duty:
                  (i) prevents the member from having their normal meal; or
                  (ii) compels the member to have a meal at public expense;
      (b) an approving authority considers it reasonable in the circumstances for the member to have a meal — other than a mess dinner, 
         mixed dining-in, or other similar event — at public expense; and
      (c) the member pays for a meal.
  

OR 5.24, which states 

5.24 — RECALL TO WORKPLACE
Subject to instruction 5.20 (General), a member who is recalled from home to the member’s workplace is — if the recall is the second trip to the workplace in a 24 hour period — entitled to be reimbursed:
         (a) in respect of a member using a PMV, two times the kilometric rate for the direct road distance between the member’s home and 
          the workplace; and

The submitted memo requested guidance on which one to claim - either I'm returning home for my supper and driving back to work, in which case I'm being recalled and am entitled to mileage, or I'm expected to stay at work during the intervening hours and am entitled to a meal claim, as I'm being prevented from eating my regular meal. 

However, both of these references fall under the umbrella of the original 5.01, so all the CoC has to say is "These aren't irregular hours" and I've got no angle from which to argue.  The fact that there exists no definition of "irregular hours" means that I have absolutely no way to counter.  I expect this to be rejected, and i will grieve the decision, but if no definition has been needed to date, and the CFTDI hasn't been updated since 2012, I don't expect a speedy resolution.

Now that I've laid out my entire case, I'm open to suggestions, advice, or info on how other units handle this - it appears to me that the entitlement is laid out clearly in black and white, but allows the CoC the weasel words to get out of it if they don't feel like paying.

Thanks for all the help,

Milhouse


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## Milhouser911 (25 Oct 2018)

And here is the response from the chain:

"CFTDI policy, as cited by mbr, does not apply for the following reasons:
a.  Mbr is not on TD nor are they working at a temporary location
b.  Mbr is not being recalled to work on wed evenings.  Per standing unit policy, wed duty day for full time staff is 0900-2200hrs MST.  Mbrs are afforded a proper break from 1600-1830 hrs MST.  Mbrs may remain at the workplace and utilize facilities (ie canteen), or mbrs may leave the workplace if they so choose.  
C.  Mbr is not being prevented from having an evening meal, they are not being ordered to work over the supper meal hour.  

As such, I do not support."

Breakdown:  A is irrelevant.  Mbr doesn't need to be on TD or working at a temporary location.
B.  The meat of the subject.  I think it fits the definition of "recalled to work", as Ballz said, you are only expected to commute to work once each day.  
C.  Memo didn't say that we were being prevented from having an evening meal, we are being prevented from having our NORMAL meal, as per 5.18 1 (a).

Grievance inbound.


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## Gunner98 (25 Oct 2018)

As Pusser stated below CFAO 36-14 para aa applies and not CFTDI:

RATIONS PROVIDED WITHOUT CHARGE
4.     The commanding officer (CO) of a base, unit or ship providing food
services is authorized to draw rations for and provide meals without charge
to:

aa.  on the authority of a supervisor not below the rank of sergeant,
          a member living-out or residing in MQs who is not subject to
          deductions for rations who, as a result of being ordered to work
          beyond his normal working hours (as established by the working
          routine for his unit, base or ship), is required to work over a
          meal period or for at least four continuous hours between the
          hours of 1900 and 0700;


CBIs:
210.83 - Meal Expense – Reserve Force on Class A Reserve Service or Class B Reserve Service

210.83(1) (Meal expense) An officer or non-commissioned member of the Reserve Force on Class A or B Reserve Service who is entitled to rations under QR&O 36.35 (Entitlement to Rations), over a meal hour shall, if a meal cannot be provided from Government sources, be paid either:
a.a meal expense without receipt equivalent to the national average cost of a dispersed lunch meal produced by a Canadian Forces dining facility for visiting units and personnel as determined annually by the Chief of the Defence Staff, or
b.a meal expense supported by a receipt not to exceed the meal allowance rate for a lunch established by the Treasury Board for the public service.

210.83(2) (Payment of expense) The expense described in paragraph (1) is payable in the manner established by the Chief of the Defence Staff.

(effective 13 June 2002

QR&O - para h below applies

36.35 - ENTITLEMENT TO RATIONS

(1) Except as prescribed in paragraph (2), the commanding officer of a base, unit or element is entitled to draw a daily ration to the approved scale for:
a.each officer or non-commissioned member on the strength of the base, unit or element who i.is subject to deductions from pay and allowances as prescribed in paragraph (1) of article 208.505 (Deductions for Provision of Rations), or
ii.is not subject to deductions from pay and allowances under paragraph (2) of article 208.505;

b.each member of the Canadian Forces on temporary duty or attached duty at the base, unit or element for the period of that duty;
c.each patient in a hospital of the base, unit or element;
d.each cadet, to whom the Queens Regulations and Orders for the Canadian Cadet Organizations apply when attending a summer camp at the base, unit or element or on other occasions prescribed by the Minister;
e.each civilian employee of the Department on the strength of a base, unit or element whose terms of engagement provide entitlement to prepared rations without financial recovery;
f.each person authorized to be provided with prepared rations on financial recovery;
g.each person held in custody in the unit detention room for whom a daily ration is not otherwise drawn; (1 September 1999)
*h.each person engaged in operations, required for duty during a continuous state of readiness or taking part in a training, field or operational exercise authorized by the officer commanding the command, during which it is not feasible or desirable to return to mess halls or to other normal places of messing*; and
i.any other person designated by the Chief of the Defence Staff.


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## dapaterson (25 Oct 2018)

If your regularly scheduled hours are changed, you are working irregular hours.  If you are working your regularly scheduled hours, you are not working irregular hours.  You are, rather, working your normal hours - so CFAO 36-14 would not apply.

If you know in advance the hours you are able to prepare - prepare food in advance and store it in the canteen.  CFTDI etc only apply when it's unplanned and you're unable to prepare in advance.


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## Milhouser911 (25 Oct 2018)

Simian:

I don't believe that applies.  We are technically not on duty from 1600-1830.  As we're allowed to go home for the meal, and we're not working "4 hours between 1900-0700", the CFAO would not appear to take precedence here.

In addition, if the unit schedule states at every Wednesday we work these hours, it's hard to argue that they're "beyond normal working hours".  

So I maintain that this is a CFTDI issue, rather than a CFAO issue.

dapaterson:  Can you clarify your position for me?  If my CoC decides that I am to work 0000-1900hrs every day for two weeks, those shifts would not be considered "irregular hours"?  This is a true example of a shift I worked during the early maple resolve exercises, and meals were provided at the kitchen.  Are you saying that these meals were provided out of the goodness of the CO's heart, and not because an entitlement existed?  We had plenty of time to walk to the kitchen, eat, and walk back to work, so if we had been inclined we could have brought a breakfast, lunch, and supper, and eaten in the canteen, or gone out for takeout.  By this standard, no entitlement existed.

Thanks,

Milhouse


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## Eye In The Sky (26 Oct 2018)

Pusser said:
			
		

> This is not a CFTDI issue, nor is it recall from leave.



Can you elaborate why Section 3.01 doesn't apply?  



> 3.01 — APPLICATION
> 
> (1) (Regular Force) Subject to CFTDTI 3.02 (No Application), the CFTDTI apply to a member of the Regular Force who
> is, after 31 January 2011:
> ...



This seems to cover situations like I used for an example;  you are the Duty NCO and get called in to give MPs access for an alarm or something outside of normal working/duty hours.  You are being called in for duty reasons, and would not have incurred those travel and/or (possible) meal expenses except because of the reasons of your duty.

I see 2 issues.

1.  the unit not posting normal duty hours; and
2.  there being no definition of 'irregular hours', leaving the definition of it subjective to each/any approving authority.


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## 211RadOp (26 Oct 2018)

If I am reading this correctly:

1. You were the scheduled Base Duty Cpl;
2. You were provided a room on base for the night as you had to "live-in" during the duty; and
3. Presumably you were provided a ration card for you time on duty.

I don't see what you are trying to claim.  You did not have to travel back and forth to base and were provide meals.  In my little pea brain, you are not entitled to anything.

If you were not "living-in" and were not entitled to rations during your duty, and you were called back due to an issue and you lost meal time for that, then yes I could see why you would be entitled to claim travel and a meal (with receipt).


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## SupersonicMax (26 Oct 2018)

Having done a lot of duty where I had to sleep on base, we were always given the per diem and fed by the mess hall.


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## dapaterson (26 Oct 2018)

Milhouser911 said:
			
		

> dapaterson:  Can you clarify your position for me?  If my CoC decides that I am to work 0000-1900hrs every day for two weeks, those shifts would not be considered "irregular hours"?  This is a true example of a shift I worked during the early maple resolve exercises, and meals were provided at the kitchen.  Are you saying that these meals were provided out of the goodness of the CO's heart, and not because an entitlement existed?  We had plenty of time to walk to the kitchen, eat, and walk back to work, so if we had been inclined we could have brought a breakfast, lunch, and supper, and eaten in the canteen, or gone out for takeout.  By this standard, no entitlement existed.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Milhouse



For a limited window, changing the regular battle rhythm, while on an exercise?  That would be "irregular", and providing meals at crown expense would be more than reasonable.

In the case of working a 14 hour day, with 2 1/2 hours off in the afternoon, you aren't being recalled (that's when you're not expected to come in but have to anyways), nor are you working hours outside the regular.


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## ballz (26 Oct 2018)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> For a limited window, changing the regular battle rhythm, while on an exercise?  That would be "irregular", and providing meals at crown expense would be more than reasonable.
> 
> In the case of working a 14 hour day, with 2 1/2 hours off in the afternoon, you aren't being recalled (that's when you're not expected to come in but have to anyways), nor are you working hours outside the regular.



Then he is entitled to a meal under CFAO 36-14. Despite the unit’s failure to put something so basic in their routine orders, it doesn’t require much common sense to see that he’s working beyond his normal working hours on Tuesdays when he’s told to work until 2200.

The argument you’re making about it having anything to do with “knowing beforehand” and “having enough time to prepare a meal” is completely false and not stated anywhere. A good example is if you work M-F, 0800 – 1600, and you’re ordered to attend a training activity on base over a Saturday/Sunday from 0800 - 1600. You might know about it 4 weeks beforehand, you’re at your normal place of work with dining facility, etc, fully capable of preparing lunch…. doesn’t matter, you’re entitled to lunch that day at public expense because Saturday and Sunday are not part of your normal working hours.

The arguments being made here seem to be that the CO can make someone to work every day from 0100 – 0400, 0700 – 1100, 1300 – 1600, 1900 – 2100, and it’s perfectly okay and the member is not entitled to anything because it’s the normal pattern of work/breaks for that individuals duties, he knew beforehand, and there’s a microwave in the building.


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## Pusser (26 Oct 2018)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Having done a lot of duty where I had to sleep on base, we were always given the per diem and fed by the mess hall.



The entitlement is to meals at public expense.  You either get it from the mess (i.e. given a ration card) or you are reimbursed, but you don't get both a free meal at the mess AND per diem.


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## Milhouser911 (26 Oct 2018)

I think by "per diem" he means the TD rate, which as per the CFTDI you are absolutely entitled to when ordered to occupy accomodations.  However, the CAF in its wisdom has decreed that "Base duties are not irregular hours, no matter how irregular the hours are".

The lack of a definition of "Irregular hours" is once again the lynch pin to every argument, in either direction.  

211radop:

5.03 — ACCOMMODATION — ADMINISTRATION
(1) (Application) This instruction applies to instruction 5.02 (Accommodation).
(2) (Order To Occupy Quarters Or Commercial Accommodations) An approving authority* shall not* order a member into quarters or commercial accommodations unless the approving authority determines that it is necessary for the member:
(a) to attend a conference — or seminar, training session, meeting, or public hearing — without interruption; or
(b) to be immediately available — at all times — near the member’s workplace.

5.16 — INCIDENTAL EXPENSE ALLOWANCE
A member — who is entitled under instruction 5.02 (Accommodation) — is entitled to an incidental expense allowance at the rate set out in the NJC Travel Directive for the location where the member was at the start of a day.

5.02 simply lays out selection criteria for accommodations and doesn't add anything to the discussion.

So there it is, in black and white, that you shall not be ordered to occupy quarters unless you're required to "(b) to be immediately available — at all times — near the member’s workplace", but the leadership has decided that despite the fact that this policy ONLY applies to those working irregular hours, as per 5.01

Subject to Chapter 3 (Application of CFTDTI), this Chapter applies to a member who is:
(b) ordered by an approving authority to work — or to be immediately available for work — during irregular hours inside the member’s place of duty.

that this does not constitute irregular hours and that you are not entitled to incidentals when ordered into shacks.  This directly contradicts itself, but nobody seems to give a fuck.

Someone needs to grieve this and have it resolved, because IMO a decree that "base duty is NOT irregular hours" is invalid because if it were true, they would not be able to order you to occupy shacks.

Someone is wrong, and has been wrong for a very long time.

Milhouse


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## Milhouser911 (22 Nov 2018)

Bumping this back up in the hopes of getting some more eyes on it - memo was rejected, NOI to grieve was responded to with "Go ahead and grieve it" (not returned, no note from the CO, etc, as the grievance policy manual states are required), just a verbal "f*ck off".

Milhouse


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## ballz (22 Nov 2018)

Your notice of intent to grieve should be attached to your grievance.. if the CO won't minute it and send it back, make sure you include that information in your grievance.

The whole thing is a joke.


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## donaldk (23 Nov 2018)

Milhouser911 said:
			
		

> Bumping this back up in the hopes of getting some more eyes on it - memo was rejected, NOI to grieve was responded to with "Go ahead and grieve it" (not returned, no note from the CO, etc, as the grievance policy manual states are required), just a verbal "**** off".
> 
> Milhouse



Contact the DGCFGA at the following to register the grievance, at toll free 1-866-474-3867, commercial 613-944-5549, CSN 944-5549 or by email to dgcfga@forces.gc.ca .  DGCFGA will ask for the synopsis (ie. does it require referral to FA? - yours will) followed by giving you a file number.   CO's are not allowed to squat on a RoG and they have reporting guidelines (not sure of CA has a report for RoGs at P Res units fed by the RSSO/Adjts, NAVRES definitely does that is fed by their NRD SO Admins).  Hope your redress succeeds... keep the thread updated as many eyes are watching

P.S. the 'irregular working hours' topic isn't unique to your RSS - I am going about it a different way as I find the RoG process doesn't fix establishment issues. MARPAC Formation Review is currently analyzing input received last week from all 24 NRD's RSS/FTS organizations under the guise of "Naval Reserve Organization and Establishment" questionnaire and the RUMINT back down is that feedback (240+ responses) constitutes a well burning dumpster fire that a  anic: roadshow is being stood up ( :rofl: - doesn't take a genius to figure out why).  

 :trainwreck:


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## Furniture (23 Nov 2018)

My section is currently going through the process to have meals authorized at public expense because of our hours. When I get the memo, and minutes back I will PM the details to the OP for his use. 

If it's reasonable I'll add the details to this forum.


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## Milhouser911 (20 Feb 2019)

Bump.  Any info, Furniture?

-Milhouse


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## Halifax_Sailor (17 Jul 2019)

Hey there,

I've tried to do some research online and on this website, and I can't find anything that states the maximum number of hours a member can work in a day with or without compensation. Basically, my Sgt has it in his head right now that he can have me work 20 hours a day, 5 days a week because "We're in the Army". I'm a Navy guy, working at an Army unit (in Garrison) and this seems absolutely outrageous to me. Is there a policy (CFAO, QR&O, DAOD, etc.) that states how many hours a member can be forced to work in a day for non-operational reasons?

Thanks.


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## AbdullahD (17 Jul 2019)

This link may be of some help.. 

https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/programs/employment-standards/federal-standards/work-hours.html

Check out the hours of work pamphlet on there too... I'd suspect federal law applies to you guys, when your not in a theatre of war...

I am interested in how many hours you guys can be forced to work and under what stipulations. 

Abdullah


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## PPCLI Guy (17 Jul 2019)

This is not McDonald.  Work until the work is done.  Then come to work, and do work again...until the work is done.  WTF dude?


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## mariomike (17 Jul 2019)

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> I am interested in how many hours you guys can be forced to work and under what stipulations.



Saw this for drivers,



			
				CountDC said:
			
		

> A-LM-158-005/AG-001 - TRANSPORTATION MANUAL
> 
> HOURS OF WORK
> 66. The National Safety Code (NSC) for motor carriers is designed to establish a comprehensive code of
> ...



14 hours. Not bad. It was 16 hours where I used to work.

Note: "In cases where an operational necessity exists, a Commander of a Command, on the advice of the Command TA can approve exceptions to the hours of work regulations."


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## SupersonicMax (17 Jul 2019)

My crew day can go to 16 hours when I am flying with 12 hours of rest thereafter.  I have done that several time at home and almost constantly deployed.  The normal duty day is 8 hours however there are circumstances where you could be asked to work longer hours.  You CoC can provide you with time off when appropriate to compensate for some of the overtime worked but it is not required to do so.


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## MJP (17 Jul 2019)

Halifax_Sailor said:
			
		

> Hey there,
> 
> I've tried to do some research online and on this website, and I can't find anything that states the maximum number of hours a member can work in a day with or without compensation. Basically, my Sgt has it in his head right now that he can have me work 20 hours a day, 5 days a week because "We're in the Army". I'm a Navy guy, working at an Army unit (in Garrison) and this seems absolutely outrageous to me. Is there a policy (CFAO, QR&O, DAOD, etc.) that states how many hours a member can be forced to work in a day for non-operational reasons?
> 
> Thanks.



You haven't really given any context but long hours or irregular hours can be part of the job.  It isn't suppose to be the norm but if things need to get done then we stay and do them.  That said normal routine work is generally not an imperative to stay longer hours.


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## garb811 (17 Jul 2019)

MJP said:
			
		

> You haven't really given any context...


Exactly, have you been ordered to work these hours or is this a result of a conversation where the Sgt was making a point, winding you up etc?

If you haven't done so, check your unit's Standing Orders and/or Routine Orders. Most have the "regular" working hours while in Garrison in there, can make it easier to prove a AWOL charge in many cases. As others have noted, that doesn't mean those are the only hours you may be working though.


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## Loachman (17 Jul 2019)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> This is not McDonald.  Work until the work is done.  Then come to work, and do work again...until the work is done.  WTF dude?



How about family and general quality-of-life factors and humane treatment of subordinates?

It depends, though, upon the reasons for and duration of this. Is there a valid reason, and is this for short duration, or is it every week until one party gets posted, quits, or breaks down/burns out?


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## AbdullahD (18 Jul 2019)

Loachman said:
			
		

> How about family and general quality-of-life factors and humane treatment of subordinates?
> 
> It depends, though, upon the reasons for and duration of this. Is there a valid reason, and is this for short duration, or is it every week until one party gets posted, quits, or breaks down/burns out?



👍👍

I can't agree more, If the CAF has a recruiting problem and has the mentality of "this isn't mcdonalds, do your job and quit ******"... I'll tell you right now 150k/yr isn't enough cash to keep people.

This ain't 100 years ago. Also a lot of context is missing too.
Abdullah


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## mariomike (18 Jul 2019)

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> This ain't 100 years ago.



Ford brought in the 40-hour week back when they were making Model - T's.


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## Halifax Tar (18 Jul 2019)

I would be interested to know what your CO has to say about your Sgts "leadership methods". 

I think we can recognize that the regular force technically on duty 24/7 and as such can be employed in that manner. 

But if I was you, I would check your units ROs.  I know ours lists the general working hours.  And, while alongside in daily routine, anything over that needs more clearance/approval than a Sgt/POs prerogative.


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## Jarnhamar (18 Jul 2019)

I bet the average mcdonalds employee works harder than the average caf member. Smoke breaks when you feel like it, physio and getting your car fixed during work hours (it happens) doesn't jive at places like mcdonalds.


We're on duty 24/7 but it's disingenuous to think it's acceptable to make members work 5am to 11pm weeks or months at a time if they're not on some type of exercise or military manoeuvres.


I feel like there's some hyperbole in Halifax sailors post however, maybe not. I just dealt with an issue where a unit was blatantly ignoring the rules about drivers and sleep. Happens a lot. 


I thought I originally read something here about this guy (op) going to work for an hour/couple hours, leaving for home then being told to come back again. Was that a different guy?


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## Remius (18 Jul 2019)

Context is missing.

When I worked at a CFRC we were warned that our hours would be different.  We could be working late and on weekends.  We had a large AOR and required lots of travel early and late.  The CO did everything he could to ensure we all worked essentially 40 hour weeks and we were given CTO on a 1 for 1 basis as much as possible.   Also not counting the occasional short day we were given to help out with that.   So some days it could be 12 hours or more.

I've also found that some non army RSS posted to army reserve units (and mostly in the BOR) had issues with working that one night a week when the unit paraded and sometimes had to be "told" how it is but that CTO would be granted as much as possible to offset that.  CTO never fully made up for the time I put in as an ARQMS but that was the nature of the job.   But with block leave, short days and CTO, I didn't have much to complain about.

Things will vary from place to place but more detail about what the poster's situation would help frame a better answer from the forum.


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## Pusser (18 Jul 2019)

There is no such thing as Compensatory Time Off (CTO), notwithstanding that it happens a lot.  Short Leave is supposed to be used for that purpose.  In fact the Leave Policy Manual states:


Section 9.1 Short Leave

9.1.01 Policy

The purpose of short leave is to provide a member of the Regular Force or of the Reserve Force on Class B or C Reserve Service with time away from their duties to:

•*compensate, in part, for long hours worked during extended periods of operations/training or working on normal days of rest*;


It's also worth noting that the requirement for occasional overtime (without additional compensation) is part of the Military Factor in determining our pay rates.  In other words, we all receive overtime pay, all the time, whether we work it or not, but base on the assumption that we will.  Having said that, a leader should not abuse this and require people to work overtime beyond reason.  Make no mistake.  This is a leadership issue.  "Suck it up.  You're in the Army," is not a valid reason to abuse personnel under any circumstances.


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## SupersonicMax (18 Jul 2019)

(And don’t forget there is a 6% factored into an NCM’s pay and 4% into Officer’s pay for overtime)

Edit:  Pusser beat me to it.


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## Remius (18 Jul 2019)

Pusser said:
			
		

> There is no such thing as Compensatory Time Off (CTO), notwithstanding that it happens a lot.  Short Leave is supposed to be used for that purpose.  In fact the Leave Policy Manual states:
> 
> 
> Section 9.1 Short Leave
> ...



Yep.  But it happens a lot and used quite informally. 

Examples: Working late?  Come in late the next day or leave early.  Worked on a weekend?  Take a day and stay home.  Supervisors don't have to get too creative to mange their people as long as shyte gets done.


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## Eye In The Sky (18 Jul 2019)

There is also NWD (Non-Working Days) that is auth;  this is used frequently at my Sqn.  It is possible to accumulate more NWDs in a month than the CO can authorize Short Days.  Short days for us usually come from something like being deployed during Stats; the CO will usually auth Short Days for that as the post-deployment leave usually does not give back Stats.

Some units follow a pretty hard line on duty hours;  my experience is those are units whose mbr's don't normally work outside of the posted "normal duty hours' detailed in unit orders, and are not identified as shift workers.  At my Sqn, anyone in a crew position (aircrew and maint) is deemed a shift worker in SqnOs.  This makes compensation for work "outside day worker hours" to be administered and is usually done at the crew commander and/or flight commander levels.  Very efficient, fair and doesn't suck the life out of people trying to record/admin/approve NWDs, etc.  They get entered into FlightPro as NWDs with comments "approved by Pers X on Date Y"....voila.


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## Navy_Pete (18 Jul 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Yep.  But it happens a lot and used quite informally.
> 
> Examples: Working late?  Come in late the next day or leave early.  Worked on a weekend?  Take a day and stay home.  Supervisors don't have to get too creative to mange their people as long as shyte gets done.



Isn't that just managing your employee working hours?  That 's less of time off and more like managing someone's schedule so that they hit their 40 hours.

CTO is more like time off instead of OT pay.  For example, if someone works a double shift, manage their schedule so they still work 40 hours, but give them a half day of short to make up for the OT.


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## Remius (18 Jul 2019)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> Isn't that just managing your employee working hours?  That 's less of time off and more like managing someone's schedule so that they hit their 40 hours.
> 
> CTO is more like time off instead of OT pay.  For example, if someone works a double shift, manage their schedule so they still work 40 hours, but give them a half day of short to make up for the OT.



Not sure how my examples really differ from yours...


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## ModlrMike (18 Jul 2019)

Halifax_Sailor said:
			
		

> Hey there,
> 
> I've tried to do some research online and on this website, and I can't find anything that states the maximum number of hours a member can work in a day with or without compensation. Basically, my Sgt has it in his head right now that he can have me work 20 hours a day, 5 days a week because "We're in the Army". I'm a Navy guy, working at an Army unit (in Garrison) and this seems absolutely outrageous to me. Is there a policy (CFAO, QR&O, DAOD, etc.) that states how many hours a member can be forced to work in a day for non-operational reasons?
> 
> Thanks.



So, context being necessary for a full answer, here's my take.

There's really more than one question being asked here:

CAN the Sgt have you work as illustrated? - I would say that he _can,_ given the concept of 7/24 liability, and as a pure point of law.

SHOULD the Sgt have you work as illustrated? - I would absolutely say no. Your efficiency and safety would degrade rapidly under those circumstances.

MAY the Sgt have you work as illustrated? - Perhaps, but it would come down to the local situation, and there would have to be some oversight. If folks are pulling 100hr weeks on a regular basis, then someone above the rank of Sgt should be looking at that.

In closing, I would propose that perhaps the Sgt was attempting to have you realize that irregular and extended work days are expected in your new location, contrary to what you may or may not have experienced elsewhere.


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## Navy_Pete (18 Jul 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Not sure how my examples really differ from yours...



So if you work an extra eight hours one day, don't come in the next day, and get half a day short at some following time.  So rather than a normal 1:1, there is a 1.5 times off to compensate for OT.

Never really works out like that and normally if you can even get anything back it's pretty good at a busy unit.

The civvie option of compressed time actually just has them stacking their working hours into a slightly longer day. For example, they will work the two weeks worth of 80 hours in 9 business days vice 10. That tenth day isn't actually a day of leave, just means they've hit their quota and have a long weekend.  But if they were to work and extra 8 hours of additional time one week, they could take it as either 8 hours of OT pay, or 12 hours time in lieu of leave.  Because they can put in for time off in something like 1 hour increments (maybe less?) it makes it a but easier to track and figure out, where as we have half days of short and full days of annual.


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## mariomike (18 Jul 2019)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> The civvie option of compressed time actually just has them stacking their working hours into a slightly longer day. For example, they will work the two weeks worth of 80 hours in 9 business days vice 10. That tenth day isn't actually a day of leave, just means they've hit their quota and have a long weekend.  But if they were to work and extra 8 hours of additional time one week, they could take it as either 8 hours of OT pay, or 12 hours time in lieu of leave.  Because they can put in for time off in something like 1 hour increments (maybe less?) it makes it a but easier to track and figure out, where as we have half days of short and full days of annual.



Depends on the employer. We had to take Leiu time as an entire 12-hour shift. Nothing less.  You could bank up to 96 hours. 8 shifts. Then burn it off, and replenish. Either that, or cash. Almost everyone took the cash.


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## Navy_Pete (18 Jul 2019)

Sorry, meant the DND (and general GoC) civie option. Their leave management seems pretty complicated. Not positive, but seem to remember it may go down as far as 15 minute increments, which seemed excessively granular. 

 In my previous jobs, OT only ever meant extra pay, but seems like a good option to be able to take time in lieu, or a combo of time off and pay it out.


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## Remius (18 Jul 2019)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> So if you work an extra eight hours one day, don't come in the next day, and get half a day short at some following time.  So rather than a normal 1:1, there is a 1.5 times off to compensate for OT.
> 
> Never really works out like that and normally if you can even get anything back it's pretty good at a busy unit.
> 
> The civvie option of compressed time actually just has them stacking their working hours into a slightly longer day. For example, they will work the two weeks worth of 80 hours in 9 business days vice 10. That tenth day isn't actually a day of leave, just means they've hit their quota and have a long weekend.  But if they were to work and extra 8 hours of additional time one week, they could take it as either 8 hours of OT pay, or 12 hours time in lieu of leave.  Because they can put in for time off in something like 1 hour increments (maybe less?) it makes it a but easier to track and figure out, where as we have half days of short and full days of annual.



Ah ok. Fair point.

I doubt that CAF member are willing to give up the percentages given in the military factor of our pay.  Or are we suggesting they get overtime time in lieu and the compensation that’s is built in?


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## Navy_Pete (18 Jul 2019)

I'm okay with how we have it now.  Outside of deployments, most units should be able to manage peoples schedules for the most part to not intentionally drive them into excessive hours.  There will always be surges when everyone is working extra to prepare for things, or when something hits the fan.  Most good commands let their people manage it so that they can also give subordinates extra time off if there is some slow time to compensate.  Personally I think I could probably get the max # of short days for the remainder of my career and never even put a dent in the extra hours, but part of the job.  The extra % included is probably far less than what it would actually be if it was tracked.  Generally I find people don't mind working the extra hours if there is a good reason and they know ahead of time (if possible), but people get really pissed off when they spend a lot of time sitting around waiting for something and end up having to work late as a result. It's not always possible, but whenever we were able to always tried to let people come in late/leave early to make up for it.

It would be interesting though if they did start tracking extra hours for CAF and had to pay it out if it would encourage DND to relook at how they plan things.  Civilian OT is considered, and have seen them leave a ship out at sea overnight not to have to pay a few people 4 hours of OT for the tug.  Fuel costs are a different line item, but maybe if there was a CAF OT line item they may start considering our time valuable.

Kind of getting off topic from the original question though; think the OP was asking about a weird split shift situation.  Have done those before, and normally there is a minimum time you are paid for showing up (4 hours), so have done 8 hours work over 12.  We got an allowance for a dinner and paid at a higher rate, but haven't ever intentionally done that to anyone in the CAF (where they go home; short shifts like that are normal in some watch rotations, but your time in between is your own).


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## CountDC (19 Jul 2019)

can we backdate the tracked hours and get compensated?  We tracked actual hours at one unit and my work weeks were generally 80 to 100 hours.  Longest consecutive period was 13 weeks straight with no days off.  Wife was at the point she wanted to Negan the CO because she and the kids hardly saw me in the morning as I left to go back to work.   For a static office job that is beyond ridiculous.  Note that it wasn't because there was an over abundance of work to be done, a good share of the time was doing nothing.  It was a just because situation in which the work could have been done in a 40-50 hour week.  Am sure enough here have worked the reserve unit and heard the "you have to be in just because some of the troops are coming in to do XXX" or "its an exercise weekend and although you are not part of the exercise you have to work in the office just because".  My favourite though was "class A troops go to their regular jobs mon to fri then come in parade nights/exercises and don't get time off, why should the ftuc"   The 2 headed look when you mention telling them they will not get paid for coming in and see how many show up then.  Voluntarily coming in to be paid $300 to $400 for a weekend is not the same as being ordered in just because.

Sorry, originally meant to do a funny but ended up a bit of a rant.


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