# JTF2 Operators leaving CF to join PMCs



## SFontaine (9 Apr 2004)

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1081475935368_13/?hub=TopStories 



> JTF 2 members leaving unit to work in Iraq
> CTV.ca News Staff
> 
> The Canadian military is concerned about a growing number of elite soldiers in the Joint Task Force Two unit who are leaving the Canadian Forces for more lucrative work in private security.
> ...


Don‘t blame em.


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## Spr.Earl (9 Apr 2004)

"Those other factors include job security, and appealing to the soldiers‘ sense of patriotism, reminding them that the satisfaction that comes from serving one‘s country is something that private security firms simply will never offer."

Lt.Kent Penney had better do a reality check as to his above comment!
It‘s not only the JTF who are leaving but many others because of the lack "PATRIOTISM" our Govenment has given us for many years!
Its a two way street.


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## Infanteer (9 Apr 2004)

Bang on Earl.


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## Gibson (9 Apr 2004)

I don‘t think the government‘s stance towards national defence would have that much of an effect of JTF members.  I mean, they get the first and biggest slice of the budget pie each time.  Plus the government wants to increase their numbers giving them more money.  Private firms will always be able to outpay the government.  Even the US is having a similar problem and they are definately supportive of their special forces community.


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## Spr.Earl (9 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by Gibson:
> [qb] I don‘t think the government‘s stance to wards national defence would have that much of an effect of JD members.  I mean, they get the first and biggest slice of the budget pie each time.  Plus the government wants to increase their numbers giving them more money.  Private firms will always be able to out pay the government.  Even the US is having a similar problem and they are definitely supportive of their special forces community. [/qb]


Gibson,its the over all attitude that our respective Governments have displayed to us in the last few years,that has created this pool of men.So I suggest you reserve comment.


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## Ex-Dragoon (9 Apr 2004)

By your statement Gibson "they get the first and biggest slice of the budget pie each time" you are basically saying thy get more money then the operating budget of the navy and air force. I don‘t think so.


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## East Side Soprano (9 Apr 2004)

Exactly, maybe more dollars per soldier, that‘s it.


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## girlfiredup (9 Apr 2004)

$1000 a day is good coin but no amount of money is worth the price one has to pay in a hot spot like Fallujah.


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## Garry (9 Apr 2004)

Sure it is.

The pay that we get now is pretty darn good. However, this is a recent thing, and many of us are behind the power curve on things like houses, savings, etc. Making enough coin to buy a house in just 6 months is an incredibly attractive opportunity.

Another consideration is the adrenaline rush of danger. I realise that many here may not agree, or even acknowledge the intense rush of exploring your abilities, but for some, it‘s what life is about.

Big bucks and an incredible rush- not for everyone. 

Cheers-Garry


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## girlfiredup (9 Apr 2004)

Big bucks and an incredible rush- yeah!  I love it!  It‘s not a life that is limited to only big bucks and an incredible rush though.  How about your buddy next to you in pain, and dying?  Or observing your buddies head explode into a pink mist?  That‘s the part that you can‘t put a price on.


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## Ex-Dragoon (9 Apr 2004)

Maybe (but I doubt it) those JTF2 members leaving will again serve as a wake up call to the goverment. If they want to maintain a military they are going to have to put the bucks in to maintain it. All I can say is best of luck to those that leave for better paying pastures.


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## Scoobie Newbie (9 Apr 2004)

Ex-Dragoon I seriously doubt it will cause a ripple in our gov‘t except for the fact that they make some new rule where once you complete the cousre you have to sign a 4 year contract or something.


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## Ex-Dragoon (9 Apr 2004)

Like I said I doubt it....I think for certain occupations such as pilot, medical and certain others, one should be under a different contract policy. That way we don‘t lose critical people and the military gets its money worth for training them.


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## SFontaine (9 Apr 2004)

If the Canadian Government actually gave our military a chance to prove our worth in places like Iraq they prolly wouldn‘t leave. That‘s another reason they‘re leaving. More action.


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## Scoobie Newbie (9 Apr 2004)

I doubt the public care about the JTF either as most don‘t know they exist.  Our public has a short attention span ie. ice storm, flood of the century etc.  I think our gov‘t paints us with a bad brush ie. we‘re like the boyscouts etc. so I don‘t really blame them.  They have a idea about us because thats what the gov‘t has told them about us.  Anyway I didn‘t join to be popular and I can‘t blame guys getting out for a more lucrative paycheck to put food on their tables.


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## Slim (9 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by CFL:
> [qb] I doubt the public care about the JTF either as most don‘t know they exist.  Our public has a short attention span ie. ice storm, flood of the century etc.  I think our gov‘t paints us with a bad brush ie. we‘re like the boyscouts etc. so I don‘t really blame them.  They have a idea about us because thats what the gov‘t has told them about us.  Anyway I didn‘t join to be popular and I can‘t blame guys getting out for a more lucrative paycheck to put food on their tables. [/qb]


My point exactly. Why work for someone who acts like you‘re dirt when you can make better money elsewhere!?


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## chrisf (9 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by Slim:
> [qb]It happens in the rank and file too. You just never hear about it because the Average Canadian doesn‘t care about the service unless it‘s the JTF2 and, then, only if they screw up.
> [/qb]


On the contrary, I‘d submit that the average Canadian didn‘t know about JTF2 prior to Hati, if they know about them now that is.


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## Slim (9 Apr 2004)

Maybe...Maybe not. Sometimes its hard to see what sticks and what doesn‘t

You can bet, though, that all the immigrants from the Middle East know who they are!


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## bubba (9 Apr 2004)

money talks,plus the fact being a soldier for this country only matters amongs‘t guys who served.alot of canadians do not know much about the forces.the press only talk of the negative,very little about the good.look at the medoc,how long for them guys to get OFFICIAL RECONITION from are govt.when you get out of the cbt arms you are starting over from scratch on civy street.so why not make some good coin to set yourself up.it aint easy goin back to school in your mid to late 20‘s.like slim says people only want to hear about the jtf2,most people in canada can‘t name one of the 3 reg force infantry battlions....those guys are definitly going to earn their money  :akimbo:


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## Ranger (9 Apr 2004)

Could someone tell em what ‘JTF-2 Qualified‘ means???


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## Scoobie Newbie (9 Apr 2004)

I‘ll answer your question if you can honestly tell me if you‘ve done a search on this forum first.


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## kiltedtradesman (11 Apr 2004)

> Those other factors include job security, and appealing to the soldiers‘ sense of patriotism, reminding them that the satisfaction that comes from serving one‘s country is something that private security firms simply will never offer.


That is a good side splitter.  I think the the bureaucrats should check their patriotism.  Have you ever tried to apply for the Public Service.  Their are boxes on applications to check off for females, visible minorities, people with disabilities and first nations.  How loyal are they to veterans.  Nadda...  I think Ottawa should practise what they preach.  The private frims are more loyal to their troops than than Ottawa.  

I have deleted alot of what I wanted to say, but lets just say that Ottawa is the group that is not being loyal in my opinion.

  :rocket:


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## The_Falcon (11 Apr 2004)

Your are kidding right QY Rang.


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## Scoobie Newbie (12 Apr 2004)

kiltedtradesman I think you should include what you deleted.  I‘m kinda interested.


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## Gibson (12 Apr 2004)

I meant budget per solider obviously. Getting more money then an entire element would be ridiculous.  Sometimes good opinions come from members who may accidently present their thoughts poorly.

I‘m using an example of an individual soldier.  It‘s hard to speculate since I‘m far from being in the position of such a member but I think there is an appeal towards being highly trained and getting to actually use that training.  That may play a bigger part than money.


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## DFW2T (9 Dec 2004)

Slim said:
			
		

> Maybe...Maybe not. Sometimes its hard to see what sticks and what doesn't
> 
> You can bet, though, that all the immigrants from the Middle East know who they are!


Slim.... you hit the nail on the head!


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## KevinB (9 Dec 2004)

Gibson said:
			
		

> highly trained and getting to actually use that training



Key point - getting to use it...
 You can make $70k a year ('ish) have a donut eating competition at the Trout Farm, or leave and get $982 US a day tax free (and more) and do the job (similar) you trained for.

The gov't is losing its best and brightest to CP duty due to most don't want to rust.  Now I am not speaking for all - but I talked to afew when I was on disembarkation in Ottawa and those I talked to all urged me to go private, rather than go do "6 easy days  ;D - as one calls it) for selection and then the SOAC.

 Two Months in Iraq and you got your annual salary in USD - tax free...  Some of the companies out there are much more individual oriented than the CF - 2 months hot zone - 1 month off with ~5kUSD holiday pay for that month...
  
Cheers
Kevin


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## Scoobie Newbie (10 Dec 2004)

can't spend it if your dead


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## KevinB (10 Dec 2004)

Yeah buy consider troops in Iraq are just as big, if not bigger, targets and what do they get per day $ wise?

 Like anything there are high end Private Companies and lower end ones.


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## Scoobie Newbie (10 Dec 2004)

"and lower end ones"
ding ding

no air support
no medivac
no back up


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## KevinB (10 Dec 2004)

Dude, agreed totally - you gotta look where you want to go - who your doing it with etc...

 But your comments basically also summed up a CF operation


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## Bartok5 (11 Dec 2004)

I am not going to say that the PMC route is a "good thing" or a "bad thing".   Each to his (or her) own, based on skill-sets, life circumstances, opportunities (read money), etc.

What I will say is that not all PMCs are created equal.   I STRONGLY caution any member of this board against signing on with anything less than a fully-accredited and credible PMC for overseas work.   I am old and wise enough to know that the business spans the spectrum between "cannon fodder" and "high threat but low risk".   If you can't differentiate between the two, then you are the former just waiting for a body-bag.   

I know for a fact that there are several upstart Canadian "companies" scraping warm bodies off of Reserve Armoury floors with the lure of "big bucks".   If you are so inclined, then fill your boots.   But you had better ask a whole bunch of questions before you sign on as a "rental" with such an organization.   Unlike the established international agencies that have been in the business for many a year, most of the Canadian agencies are decidedly "low-rent".   Above and beyond the (perhaps attractive) pay, ask about your life and disability insurance coverage, the provision of weapons and personal equipment, about the living conditions, the company history, about the operating environnment, the minimal hiring prerequisites (do you want to be paired with a numpty yahoo?) and on, and on, it goes.   

I'm not saying that the PMC route is a bad thing.   What I am simply suggesting is that for the vast majority who frequent this board, it is a "rambo dream".   And for those who actually have the training and experience to make a go of it, the scene is fraught with danger and disappointment.     

At the end of the day, if a company is actively recruiting on public forums such as "Lightfighter.com", "Assault.web", or any other public-acess board, then you are well advised to steer a wide berth.   If you are serious and think that you have the requisite parts, then you ought to talk to KevinB and a few others who are connected to the business and understand the skit.   And by "parts" I don't mean immature bravado.   I mean folks who have actually faced fear and performed despite the loaf in their trousers.....


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## Slim (11 Dec 2004)

I would say that the one Canadian company safe to deploy with is an outfit called "Globe Risk" out of Toronto.

The owner, Alan Bell, is the real McCoy and can be depended on to put you in a good group of guys over there...If...you measure up to his rather demanding standard for BG in that area. I'm not sure if he has an organization over there or if he is merely placing guys in the M.East. either way he is connected in the area.

Slim


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## BillN (11 Dec 2004)

Nothing new here.  The higher ups in the SAS have been complaining about the same thing over there for years.

Perhaps its the type of individual SF attracts?  Do they become "thrill junkies" and need a constant fix?

Bill


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## Blackhorse7 (11 Dec 2004)

It's the same thing that the RCMP faces.  It's called "The Brain Drain".  For many people in the CF, there is a need to put to use the skills that they have been trained for.  A good example is our ERT Teams.  I am in Prince George, and while our ERT Team is heavy on training, they are very light on calls.  That's why we have a big turnover rate with the local Team.  Many of the transfers are guys wanting to go to a place where they will get more operational deployment.

I don't know what the right answer is.  I think if they want to go, let them.  If it's not money, something else may have lured these people away in any event.  You want a person to stay for the right reasons (patriotism, brotherhood, etc..), ot because he/she is able to make more money somewhere else.  

That ends my two cents....


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## Infanteer (11 Dec 2004)

Mark C said:
			
		

> the minimal hiring prerequisites (do you want to be paired with a numpty yahoo?)



I think Mark C had identified the key point here.  As good as reservists do considering their relative circumstances, I would not feel comfortable being thrown into a maelstrom with the level of training the CF reserve system is able to provide.  Remember, the professional PMC's usually hire experienced SNCO's and Officers (meaning long service in leadership positions), guys with SOC unit background and/or real operational backgrounds.

If a company is putting out casting calls on public forums for guys with DP2A (support weapons) and a good mix of Class A and Class B experience, I'd avoid it like the plague.  As tough as a guy may think he is for doing BIQ in Wainwright (trust me, I was there at one point and thought I could take on the world), the business end in places like Iraq is far over the abilities of a part-time soldier.


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## KevinB (13 Dec 2004)

My understanding Glode Risk was UK based...


 Regardless, for example; Triple Canopy is the ONLY - touch wood - close protection, training and threat management org in Iraq that has yet to lose a contractor - why? They hire Tier 1 pers - have demanding training, have USSOC assets that assist them, do realistic site surveys, equip teams VERY effectively.  They also have lower skill sets TierII SOF and LE troops to do other jobs.

 Blackwater, Custer Battles and other orgs are fairly convervative on who they hire as well.  

Simple problem is that ONE specific entity that is NOT very detailed on who they hire and what jobs they take (and there are some un-realistic security gigs out there...) is amasing the largets percentage casualities.


Now $982 USD is a lot per day - but unless I know that I have a SF medic on the team and a 160th SOAR bird that will do under fire extraction of wounded principle and/or protective assets - there is not a lot of faith that you will be able to spend it.

Similarily while in Afghan I ran into an old acquaitance who had spent a period in an African jail - simply for he was in the wrong spot at the wrong time and his company crumbled and the gov't locked up the white mercenaries until their families ponied up a lot of cash to free them...

Now for those who are not SOAC grads and want to help their resumes - Blackwater, Triple C and many others offer Exec Protec courses down in the US that can help Infanteers get some skill sets to get them off the cannon fodder list and into a higher group where there can be more sure of their surroundings...  Do you really want to work for a unit that issues AK's has nto standard weapons testing etc?  However even prior to some of those course they will want you to have some formal pistol and carbine courses (i.e. outside the CF box trg)

IIRC The Shooting Edge in Calgary also hosts the Globe Risk courses.


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## Slim (13 Dec 2004)

Likewise in Toronto CFTI (Certified Firearms Training Institute) under Phil Smith offers good combat pistol and shotgun courses.

Anyone interested can PM me as that is where I train.

Slim


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## muskrat89 (13 Dec 2004)

Gunsite has a good rep here in the Southwest, for firearms courses - in case you want to advance your education in a warmer climate   ;D

www.gunsite.com


We also have a real good custom ammo shop here - have actually seen some Canadians mentioned in their endorsements..

Arizona Ammunition


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## Michael Shannon (14 Jun 2005)

I'm writing this from Iraq. I manage a security contract.

      The $1,000 a day man is largely hype. PSC wages have come down and in my opinion they will drop further. There are lots of people with lots of actual experience in country to chose from and clients have got smarter. Many firms have realized that a good ex infantryman can do a fine job and that they don't need to pay SOF guys a premium. 

   A PSD team member should expect to make about $ 120,000 USD for a year's contract. It's good money but there is considerable risk involved. The money is fine but probably not if you must give up a pension to get it. You also usually only get paid only if you work so in the lvery ong run you may not make as much as if you stayed in the army. 

      The jobs tend to be boring with brief interludes of intense readiness, confusion and sometimes drama. PSDs are guaranteed to get shot at at some point. 

    The PSCs vary in quality and business acumen. Many run by ex SOF operators have been incompetent, corrupt and /or criminal. Some are cowboys and some professionally run. My advice is stay away from US firms. Most PSCs are run on military lines but the only discipline tool available is dismissal and some organizations have been plagued with problems. 

   With all this said I wonder why a JTF 2 member would leave to come here. Perhaps things aren't as satisfying there as one would think. It could be the grass is just greener. I'll soon see as we have a few of the lads recently joined up.


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## CH1 (15 Jun 2005)

From my perspective, I do not like the fact that the ppl over there have no "backup" plans or echelons.
As every body knows it can be bad enough, even with all the support mechanisms in place & functional.
I find it even scarier that Res For are going over. (not knocking them).  But actual Cbt experience counts big when the crap hits the fan.  Personally I've looked at it and concluded
(1) I'm too old
(2) I would want to hand pick my crew & wpns
(3) Have backup plans & resources
(4) Control ROE's & assignments

I'm too picky at this late stage of the game.  Managed to keep my tail in relatively same shape as at issue, without too much damage.

Cheers


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## KevinB (15 Jun 2005)

I disagree on the "good ex infantry man can do the job as well as a SF guy routine"

 Shooting skills
 First Aid
 Comms
 Driving / Vehicle Drills
 Foot Drills.

1) A good Infanteer might have a basic fundemantal in shooting, unless he is putting a lot of round down range on his own AND taking courses from credible instructors - the basic US and Canadians weapons instruction shooting skills are sadly deficient.

2) First Aid - unless the soldier has the TCC course he has no experience with battlefield trauma - First aid support for the client is necessary - and that for wounded team mates.

3) Comms - the ability to shoot move and communicate when something bad goes down - not necessarily just electronic means - but clearly to you teammates

4)Vehicle skills -- This skill level is ZERO - high speed and ant-ambush skils are not taught to conventional force personnel (althoguh I believe they shoudl be)

5) Foot drills etc from walking with the principle to reacting to ambush/threats.  I can tell you it is a 180 degree from being an Infantryman - the client is #1 - closing with and destroying the enemy is not.


A GOOD Infanteer may have two of those skills sets at a good level - he needs all five.  Most SOF will have at least 4 of those skills Mastered.


That said there is a definite Tier in Private Military Contractors 
 VIP CP work
 Convoy (non client) escort
 Static Site security.

Working actually PSD work for a VIP will entail more $ for both the individual and the contract - and run armoured vehicles and have kit - plus hopefully a medical setup and US Hospital access - and a QRF.  I have a friend doing this- pay is excellent (not quite a 1k a day but damn near - all USD tax free)

Convoy - these people are cannon fodder - Sorry but its true they are guarding shit that is not important to the Army - and necessary for corporations to function - however a lot of these are pennie pinching sending troops off in soft skin vehicles - or worse hard vehicles they cannot shoot out of.

 Static: Lowest group - but I have two buddies doing this in Iraq and they have it pretty good - not bad pay for low risks.


Pay for the top guy is around $950 USD a day but he is a TL

Pay for the low end is $450 USD a day.


PS Dont work for the Brits - Hart and Edinburg Risk are getting shit kicked these days - 60 guys in the last three days.


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## Big Red (15 Jun 2005)

Also writing from Iraq.

I don't believe there are any Canadian security companies in Iraq.   Canadian PSD operators are few and far between here.

Pay of $1000 per day? For each man making that there are hundreds making far less including 'Tier 1' operators. There are PSDs out there that pay Third Country Nationals 5000 per month.   Besides a select few British companies most pay less than BW or 3C.   I echo the comments above that UK outfits seem to have a higher percentage of professionals. I would rather work with a more organized group and live to spend the money.

"From my perspective, I do not like the fact that the ppl over there have no "backup" plans or echelons."

That is why you are being paid 5x what a soldier makes...there is some hazard involved.

"But actual Cbt experience counts big when the crap hits the fan. "

How many soldiers in the Canadian Forces have 'combat experience' that is relevant to the PSD environment? 

You should not go to Iraq unless you have developed the skill sets KevinB mentioned past what the army gave you.   You do not need to be Tier 1 to do PSD however you do need training.


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## wack-in-iraq (16 Jun 2005)

a lot of valid points have been made, i think the one that i hear the most often is 'what good is all the money if you are dead'  well, this is a fact, i am not sure if anyone remembers the 4 guys from blackwater that were literally torn into pieces in fallujah some time ago, but they were making $3000 a day, while that is a lot of money, what good is it now. of course this is an extreme example. the PSD teams i work with most closely (Dyncorp, Global, and a few smaller names) operate in the $500 a day range.

there are a lot of different types of PSD work as well, of course blackwater is the most high profile, they have a huge contract with the US embassy here, and thus they are VERY well kitted out. they drive around in werewolves (RSA made APC) and have MH-6 helos as well, no one here has a bigger rep than these guys. then you get down to people doing more static work, Global runs the BIAP area, and they do an excellent job. then you get the rag tag teams mixed with Ex-Pats and a bunch of iraqis driving around in BMWs with AKs, these are the guys who take a lot of cassualties, for a number of obvious reasons.

the best piece of advice i can give, that has already been given is to know what you are getting into coming to a place like iraq. while it is an exciting place, it is a crazy one as well, and life here can be very unpleasant.


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## Big Red (16 Jun 2005)

"no one here has a bigger rep than these guys. "....as having more ex-pat KIA than any other company in theatre.


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## Michael Shannon (16 Jun 2005)

Of course to be part of a PSD team you need specific training but whether you come from SOF or the infantry or are a sapper it doesn't matter if you're a good quality soldier. For instance a former armoured trooper who lived for GPMGs could be a real boon to a team as well gunner in a SUV. Being a PSD team member is not rocket science and most SOF skills are irrelevant: scuba, demolitions, heavy weapons, FAC, parachuting etc. and it is very wrong to assume that most SOF personnel have done PSD training. In any event no professional PSC deploys anyone on a team without a entry course to brush up skills and ingrain SOPs.

   Before PSD training one should be good with small arms, reasonably fit, comfortable doing section tactics, and a good driver. Each team should have a para medic type but you shouldn't exaggerate what you expect him to be able to do. The range of trauma where a para medic will make the difference in saving a life is quite narrow. Good teams will also train in theatre whenever possible. They will adapt their drills to changing enemy TTPs. Virtually every drill I was ever taught on PSD training pre Iraq is different here. It's your ability to adjust to the situation that is important.

    Skill sets are also perishable. Who's a better shot; a serving infantryman who shoots IDPA a lot or a SAS guy whose been out of the service for 6 years and hasn't touched a gun? I don't know. But I do know, from experience, it's very dangerous to assume the training level of ex SOF men. 

     Being a solid soldier and a quick learner are more important than former beret colour. Getting hired is another thing and beret colour very much is part of it in many firms.


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## KevinB (16 Jun 2005)

Michael Shannon said:
			
		

> Being a solid soldier and a quick learner are more important than former beret colour



VERY VERY true.

 I will defer to bigred as he is one of three Canadians I personally know who is over there.


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## wack-in-iraq (17 Jun 2005)

> I will defer to bigred as he is one of three Canadians I personally know who is over there.



there arent many canadians over here at all, ive been here 4 months and have met 4


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## Slim (17 Jun 2005)

> Being a solid soldier and a quick learner are more important than former beret colour. Getting hired is another thing and beret colour very much is part of it in many firms.



Mike Shannon

That was a great post. Thanks very much. I know from experience that the colour of ones beret (and background) do very much matter as I had tried to get over there a number of times.

Despite my training in the CF (armoured Recce/Int Branch) and A good long solid Cp course I was not successful in getting into a PMC.

Cheers

Slim


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## jmacleod (20 Jun 2005)

For Former Airborne, Canadian Army, two items of interest I would think. My neighbour in Moncton NB
served in the 1st Special Service Force, was in all the battles in Italy, and knew Sergeant Tommy Prince
whom he described as one of the bravest soldiers in the Force, decorated with the MM, Silver and
Bronze Stars, and possibly the US DSC - most awards to 1SSF were US medals. Ross rates the late
Tommy Prince very highly, "a real professional soldier". He also advised that the Colors with all Battle
Honors are going to be turned over to JTF2 - he noted that normally they would have gone to the
US Special Forces training facility (is it at Fort Benning GA?) but the Canadian survivors wanted the
colors and other honors from the famous Unit in Canada. 1SSF has a veterans' organization and publishes
a monthly newsletter - on a number of occasions, they have published accolades from US Airborne
personnel familier with the high quality of the Canadian Airborne Regiment in Somalia. MacLeod


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## KevinB (20 Jun 2005)

:  And that had what to do with the topic?


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## jmacleod (21 Jun 2005)

I posted my comments because the high regard the surviving members of 1SSF have for JTF2,which received a Presidential Unit Citation from President Bush in 2004. Unfortunately elite units do not
last too lomg in the Canadian military - history is not on their side, despite the high quality of the
Unit. As far as a career in PMC is concerned, a well known US based security outfit was shooting
at the US Marine Corps the other day in Iraq - their tenure is now somewhat limited, and many
members of the US Senate are not supportive of the concept of civilian contractors in front-line
security operations, regardless of what you or I might think. MacLeod


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## meni0n (21 Jun 2005)

It is not yet clear if it was them who shot at the marines. It's a known fact the insurgents now use SUVs to ride around and shoot at people pretending to be contractors.


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## Big Red (21 Jun 2005)

If you don't know what you are talking about ie. Iraq incidents and intelligence, then don't bother posting about it. Just because you read it on another website does not make it fact.


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## Big Red (21 Jun 2005)

If the US government wants to reconstruct Iraq they have no option but to use PMCs. The US military certainly isn't going to protect private individuals doing business in hostile areas with the exception of top officials.


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## jmacleod (21 Jun 2005)

Despite what you have posted, the US Government has a number of options focused on Iraq,
which are being debated in the US Congress at this moment. A Report in the 9 June 2005 issue
of Military.com filed by Associated Press, Iraq, reported that 16 Private Security Contractors, and
three Iragi's were detained and questioned after having opened fire with automatic weapons on a
US Marine detachment. The Contractors later left Iraq - this is not an opinion, simply a report of an
actual, factual incident. The use of private security companies in Iraq has been the subject of debate
for some time - but agreed, what are the options?  - the security contractor program appears to be
the most sensible and logical course, with additional US and allied troops for Iraq not acceptable to
the politicians at the moment. MacLeod


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## Michael Shannon (21 Jun 2005)

The alternatives to PSCs are limited and not mutually exclusive. 

1. Have the US military protect the reconstruction groups. This is basically the PRT idea in Afghanistan but the scale would be far greater.
2. Have reconstruction money given directly to the Iraqi authorities and have far fewer expat civilians on the ground. Basically write the money off in the hope it does some good and save the money currently spent on security.
3. Forbid foreigners from possessing weapons or hiring armed security people. This will clean out most westerners.
4. Forbid foreigners from employing expat armed security. This will clean out anyone but those really comfortable in the Middle East.

           I believe that none of the above will be adopted. The Iraqi government wants to reduce the number of PSCs and get the remainder under better control and more accountable and a number of large firms are being cut back because of "accounting & legal problems".


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## wack-in-iraq (22 Jun 2005)

PSCs are a fact of life now, they are here to stay (at least for a while) . the US government has already admitted the importance of these detachments, and has said that if it wasnt for the contractors over here the US army would need at least another division to fill the gaps.


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## CH1 (24 Jun 2005)

The 1 thing that is being overlooked through out this little escapade is a single fact.  The allies do not have control over the "opposition PSC's" (sorry, had to use that line). The for hire guns on the other side are striking at will with relative impunity.  May be the freindly PSC's will in time help to stabilise the situation.  

The Allies have to regain control of the country, which is a daunting task as they are spread thin.  If they don't regain control, this could be another 10,000 day war.  Talking to a few friends of mine that are back from Iraq, this seems to be a general consensus.  They say they have lost site of the objective & are now involved in a war that closely resembles Nam.

Hope that sentiment isn't true!

Cheers


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## DFW2T (10 Sep 2005)

CH1 said:
			
		

> The 1 thing that is being overlooked through out this little escapade is a single fact.   The allies do not have control over the "opposition PSC's" (sorry, had to use that line). The for hire guns on the other side are striking at will with relative impunity.   May be the freindly PSC's will in time help to stabilise the situation.
> 
> The Allies have to regain control of the country, which is a daunting task as they are spread thin.   If they don't regain control, this could be another 10,000 day war.   Talking to a few friends of mine that are back from Iraq, this seems to be a general consensus.   They say they have lost site of the objective & are now involved in a war that closely resembles Nam.
> 
> ...


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## tomahawk6 (10 Sep 2005)

Work with a PSC should not be considered as anything other than temporary employment and not a career. The US Army has countered the loss of senior special ops NCO's with bonus' up to $150,000. Those younger operators that do take a contract many have returned to service after the 12 month contract is over. The loss this week of 4 contractor's in an IED blast certainly highlight the danger.


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## Big Red (10 Sep 2005)

"BY ALL MEANS;   ENSURE YOU YOU NEVER NEED TO DRAW YOU WEAPON (if you do you have failed your mission) 

IF YOU DO DRAW YOUR WEAPON....BE SURE YOU USE IT FIRST... then SHOOT N' SCOOT "

I don't agree at all that if you 'draw' (?) your weapon you have failed your mission.  Your mission is to protect the client, whether that involves brandishing your weapon, firing warning shots, or engaging a threat.  There is no point hiding your weapons, *they* know who you are.  

It would also be nice for the good guys to initiate every contact with AIF but as you know that is seldom possible.


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## gnplummer421 (11 Sep 2005)

The thought of these guys leaving for higher paying jobs is understandable to me; They get more pay and they actually get to ply their trade and get some "real experience". I'm not saying that they have no experience (obviuosly places like Afghanistan would have given them some) but Iraq is definitely where the s#$t is happening...and I doubt our Government cares..they only care about personal financial and power growth.


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## DFW2T (3 Nov 2005)

Big Red said:
			
		

> "BY ALL MEANS;     ENSURE YOU YOU NEVER NEED TO DRAW YOU WEAPON (if you do you have failed your mission)
> 
> IF YOU DO DRAW YOUR WEAPON....BE SURE YOU USE IT FIRST... then SHOOT N' SCOOT "
> 
> ...



*Big Red, 
   You must have read my post wrong.  If you re-read (see above...my comments are in capitals, yours' are not) ..it say's  "ENSURE YOU NEVER NEED TO DRAW YOUR WEAPON....) That means,  if you need to do so,  you never planned a proper movement/mission.
  situational awareness
  route planning and selecion
  surveillance detection
  know your a/ambush drills / tac driving
  intel analysis and dissemination
  move O's
  proper employment of CAT and SAP teams  (if you don't know what those terms are, you shouldn't be telling me I'm wrong)
  .......I could go on

You can fail a mission AND get everyone to their objective safe and sound....but a PSO's/PSDs' objective is to avoid contact, utilize intel, and to plan proper movements, w/contingency plans.  The principles' physical and mental well being are what's important and why you are employed. You can't be QUICK DRAW McDRAW every time you hear a gunshot in Baghdad cause you (and those with you) will either become victim  to "BLUE on BLUE" and/or your principle will simply end up going home due to the stress and you are out of a job.

  One piece of "Bad Data" should shit can  a whole mission.  It would on any of my details. 

   Hence.... if you draw your weapon...you have failed your mission!*

  DFW2T


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## Dissident (3 Nov 2005)

My question is, once they have left, do we want them back? Is there anything done to try and re-recruit ex-JTF2 guy's? If being over there is just as bad as being in, with better pay but no pension, some are bound to want back in? Or am I completly off base here?


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## Big Red (4 Nov 2005)

DFW2T said:
			
		

> *Big Red,
> You must have read my post wrong.   If you re-read (see above...my comments are in capitals, yours' are not) ..it say's   "ENSURE YOU NEVER NEED TO DRAW YOUR WEAPON....) That means,   if you need to do so,   you never planned a proper movement/mission.
> situational awareness
> route planning and selecion
> ...



You can do all the route planning you want, but if you're out on the road you're playing the lottery. Just because you took route A to your site and B back is irrelevant. On any given day dozens of MNFI will use the exact same routes.  You aren't a target of assassination, you are a target of opportunity.

I stand by my comments about 'drawing your weapon'.  By your logic 90% of the teams operating overtly 'fail' every single mission they undertake.

The majority of 'blue on blue' PSD incidents are those involving 'low profile' vehicles who don't play their own game properly when they encounter MFNI/other PSDs. I can't blame the guys who shoot at them and I felt the same way when it was me on the recieving end.


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## KevinB (4 Nov 2005)

A prime example of tgt of opportunity was a Triple Canopy convoy that got hit last year.

 Two low pro sedans and a cargo vehicle (all hadji'd up)

 Nearing the extrance to XXXXXX a van in traffic opened up on the trail vehicle -- they where spead out and not easily identified.
The van had a PKM mounted in back and shot thru the side of it at the rear level IV Mercedes - 7.62x54R AP ammo 
   

Secondly both Iraq and Afghan are areas where you are open carry of weapons and you typically point your carbine at a number of people to get them to either back off or heed traffic laws.   How is that failure?

 If you have to cut a swath thru insurgents and your client is okay and the team in fine -- heck you just made your pay...

Even a skilled SAP team will not be able to prevent you from being a tgt of opportunity - they are outriding and gone to secure the venue -- the CAT is there to haul your *** out - not to prevent incidents.


Edit to reflect a issue BR and I just talked about.

 The olden days of CP work are gone -- in this case there is no unique principal being guarded -- the insurgents are eager to bust any head -- 
The detailed ambushes of Peruvian Narco-Terrorists are not lying in wait along a roadside - BUT - some one driving around or walking in groups waiting for something to strike their fancy.


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## armyintheafterlife (17 Nov 2005)

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> "Those other factors include job security, and appealing to the soldiers' sense of patriotism, reminding them that the satisfaction that comes from serving one's country is something that private security firms simply will never offer."
> 
> Lt.Kent Penney had better do a reality check as to his above comment!
> It's not only the JTF who are leaving but many others because of the lack "PATRIOTISM" our Govenment has given us for many years!
> Its a two way street.



Right you are Earl.


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## starlight_cdn (17 Nov 2005)

I risked my hide for a lot less  with no one giving a crap back in the early nineties in the Balkans. I understand why PMC/PSD work is so interesting. 

There seems to be a push on for experienced operator/medics recently. I heard it was due to some mandated requirement for teams by DOS. Is that true? What is the word?

I see a lot of familiar on-line handles from other forums.....lightfighter,gunnutz. These are some experienced operators posting some excellent Intel. Most would be wise to listen. KevinB, thanks for the AAR on the 6004. I got one for my Glock.Very satisfied.


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## Meatpuppet (6 Feb 2006)

I thought the CF were a Private security firm!


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## Fishbone Jones (6 Feb 2006)

Once again, despite repeated warnings, guidance and being banned from the chat room on numerous occasions, we have another that thinks it's his rightful place to come to Mr Bobbitt's house and start acting like an elephant in the living room.

Another one that's wrong.


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