# .50 cal Heavy Machine Gun



## Andyboy (8 Sep 2000)

Can anyone here explain to me the scoop on the changes to MG doctorine/crses? I understand the .50 is being phased out of the course (as of now!) but is it being phased out of service and if so then why? What going on with the guns?


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## Rick Goebel (8 Sep 2000)

I understand that the .50 is being eliminated from the infantry because it is being "replaced" by the 25mm gun on the LAV III.

Of course, the regular light infantry battalions and reserve infantry units won‘t have the LAV III but since there is no doctrine for light infantry in the the Canadian Army, there can be no justification for keeping the .50 for them.


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## Giant Killer (11 Sep 2000)

Having just completed running a QL4 Infantry Machine Gunner Course, I was surprised to find that mine was probably the last Reserve course to be teaching the .50 cal HMG in LFCA.  It‘s a bit disappointing because that weapon was always a big draw towards getting light infantry soldiers to become machine gunners.  ("Hey, I wanna fire the fifty!")

The rationale is that the HMG would be taught to Reservists, if required, during pre-deployment training.  This now puts the onus on the deploying unit to bring an already "qualified" Infantry machine gunner up to standard.

Although I can understand the budgetary reasons for such decisions, I‘m a firm beleiver in the concept of "One Army-One Standard".

If you‘re going to politically pretend that Reservists are fit for augmentation of the Regular Force, give them the tools and funding to meet that goal!


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## Master Blaster (13 Sep 2000)

This situation is very similar to the premise that the Reserve Section Commanders being expected to have knowledge of and the experience necessary to deploy their sections from a LavIII.

We do not now have the capability to deploy from the back of a worn out MLVW let alone a Lav!  I have not had the pleasure of talking to a Reserve soldier north of the 49th paralell that has any concept of mobile command deployment unless that soldier has been in more than fiften years and was trained on 113‘s or Grizzly‘s.  The entire idea of not having to walk to war via the ‘black cadilac express‘ is a new and sometimes stunning revelation that catches a lot of the young SrNCO‘s entirely by surprise much to the dismay of the Battle School in Gagetown.

To believe that the Army has enough resources to protect an Infantry Coy in the field with 25mm weapons deployed from the decks of Lav‘s is ridiculous!  We are to share the meager resources that currently are being depleted by overseas tours?

Come on!  Who‘s running this show??  Get a grip on reality and start thinking with the BIG brain instead of the little one.  Train Infanteers to train hard, fight hard with resources that are spartan. Spartan...now there‘s an idea.  Minimalistic approach to the Art of War.  Create soldiers to think for themselves, be creative in their thinking and use resources as they become available on the battlefield.  An old but very successful method of deploying effective soldiers against a technologically advanced enemy.

Dileas Gu Brath


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## Andyboy (13 Sep 2000)

On behalf of everyone at the Army homepage, Mister Master Blaster, I would ask you to stop using such scary and agressive language, it makes us feel as though we should be training for war.

Seriously though, is there no real contingency for this weapon? Why is knowledge of this weapon considered obselete? Are the Regs discontinuing it‘s use or has it been overlooked/assumed-as-learned? Why not keep the course around as it is and keep the knowledge base alive instead of losing it forever, what is the harm in having extra knowledge?


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## Spr.Earl (1 Oct 2004)

I know my thought's on the .50.
Should it be brought back and why?


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## Scoobie Newbie (1 Oct 2004)

G wagon
Black Hawk Down type scenerio
its universal in language.


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## Spr.Earl (2 Oct 2004)

CFL said:
			
		

> G wagon
> Black Hawk Down type scenerio
> its universal in language.


CFL,are you a  Machine Gunner qualified?


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## pbi (2 Oct 2004)

The .50 cal is still a great weapon-ask the US forces who have loads of them. Although I found the first iterations of the QCB to be a techno-tragedy, I trust those initial problems have been overcome and it is back to its old self. It provides a good weight of fire from a simple and economical system that can be mounted almost anywhere. Cheers.


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## Scoobie Newbie (2 Oct 2004)

Afraid not why?


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## PPCLI Guy (2 Oct 2004)

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> CFL,are you a   Machine Gunner qualified?



Qualified TQ2 Machine Gunner - in 1980!!!  Does that help?


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## Grunt_031 (2 Oct 2004)

The .50 is still in service. Although not as much as it use to be. 3VP still holds them and we just Air Dropped 2 on Wednesday during our Para Ex.


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## PPCLI Guy (2 Oct 2004)

Grunt_031 said:
			
		

> The .50 is still in service. Although not as much as it use to be. 3VP still holds them and we just Air Dropped 2 on Wednesday during our Para Ex.



How are things in the Third?

Dave Anderson


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## Scoobie Newbie (2 Oct 2004)

They also still use them in the navy and there are plenty of crusty Sgt's that still rmember them and can pass the info down via a new MG course.


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## 48Highlander (2 Oct 2004)

also a few not-so-crusty corporals and master corporals.  it hasn't been gone THAT long.  the last course was less than 4 years ago, and I even got to train two guys on it about a year ago.


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## McG (2 Oct 2004)

We Engineers still have them on our remaining M113.


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## Jeff Boomhouwer (3 Oct 2004)

I was probably one of the last moes trained on the 50, about for years ago. Infact we had a gun weekend last year and I showed a few troops the quick and dirty on it so they could fire it. They moved out of the way for any I.A's and stopages, and they certainly weren't doing any hot barrel unloads. I would love to have a 50 in my weapons det,however it's not practical considering they are not stored in our arsenal. The CF should keep it around for a while considering the number of people trained on it and the fact that there is nothing to replace it.


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## Scoobie Newbie (3 Oct 2004)

I'd hate to hump that thing into a fire base.


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## NavyGrunt (3 Oct 2004)

Yeah we still use 'em in the Navy all the time. I love it. You really feel it in your chest......is this what love feels like? :fifty: I think so........


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## 1feral1 (4 Oct 2004)

The Browning MG .50 M2 has been in service for over 65 years, and in my opinion, why fix something if it aint broken. I was dumbfounded when I heard the CF dumped it from its Army role.

Simply put the .50 (12.7 x99mm) bridges the gap between 7.62mm and 20mm, and has earned it's place in any modern army.

It will be in service here in Australia for many years to come. The QCB version is the latest to be used, but the good ole flex in M2HB configuration is also used by all three services too.

The majority of ADF .50s in use are WW2 era, and just like an old Timex, keep on ticking. Its FTR after FTR, replace parts, re-phosphate, and carry on. Some are FTR marked 1952, and again, 1971. We even have some Canadian Diemaco (D90) rebuilds too on M2 WW2 era recievers.  

Even the QCB versions are converted onto WW2 era recievers at ADI-L, but some new FN, RAMO, and Manroy (UK) .50s are in service also.

The MG can also be man-packed too (yikes). 

She's a real classic, and has earned the respect on both the giving and receiving ends.

I hope they bring is MG back into CF (Army) service.

My Two Bob.

Wes


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## KevinB (4 Oct 2004)

We really f*cked up removing the .50 from general service.

I did my first MG course in 1988 (C-5 and .50) and when I went Patricia got to do it again (C-6  and QCB .50) in 95.

Sadly many who make these choices (dropping it from the TO&E of most units) have no understanding of our needs


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## brin11 (5 Oct 2004)

I agree.  The .50 cal is an excellent and reliable weapon.


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## axeman (5 Oct 2004)

i still miss it but on the other hand we dont hump it the way we had to anymore . boy i remember one ex  C coy humped one too far then when it was finally tome for it to let loose  we found out we had humped a really heavy none automatic machine gun . even the OC was pissed . did all we could and still nothing . we have to keep up on the training on these thing or our skills will rust away like the weapons  will .


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## pappy (6 Oct 2004)

Nothing yet can replace a .50 cal.  John Browning was a genius.  Not too many weapons that where cutting edge when they came out in WW1 that still today can find no equal, russian and chinese copies are of course classify in this statement.

A big pig to hump for infantry, but implaced in a defensive position, it's well worth the sweat getting it there. 

I met a certin Gunny Sgt in the Marines that tapped off a single shot and hit his target (documented kill) at over 1500 meters if I remember correctly with a .50 cal BMG.  I can dig up the exact didtance.  Hell of a shot.  

That said the .50 CAL BMG has chewed up a lot of bad guys and equipment over the years.  Short of the hand gernade not too many weapon systems designed for WW1 are still in standard use today with little changes.  hard to compare WW1 tanks to todays M1A2, the the WW1 .50 is pretty much the same beast as today.

That said lets bring back the Browning BAR   ;D

John Browning:
BAR
50. cal BMG
.30 cal M1918 and it cousins M1919 etc
1911 .45 pistol
Hi-power 9mm (granted this was finished by a Belgium after Johns Death)

hard to find another single man with that sort of resume.


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## Danjanou (6 Oct 2004)

Add me to the list of crusty old qualified gunners (1980-81). PPCLI Guy still have your old MG Bible "The Rise and fall of Emma Gees" ?

CFL thanks for reminding me why I regretted taking the course, humping the SOB. Come to think of it humping the old C5 GPMG wasn't actually fun and games either.  

I was always of the impression that the TQ2/QL3 MG course was one of the best for Infanteers to take, especially those who intended to move up the ranks. learning how to place/deploy them,effectively  taking into account beaten zones KZs etc gives one an excellent sense of ground and it's uses as well as the weapon itself. Nice skill sets to have as a Section or Platoon Comd.

Nothing better for reaching out and touching someone. It should be retained/brought back or it will be another skill set lost.


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## axeman (6 Oct 2004)

Jeez theres a book i aint thought of any one know whatever happend to LCol Netty? he was a big instagator in me likeing that thing even if i had to hump it . the book which he wrote a sequel  to was req. reading in my company .  the C5 is a mg that was there but im glad Fabrique National  came up with the MAG 58. a lot cleaner and no doubt a weapon that will last just like the .50 Browning mg 

:fifty:


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## Lance Wiebe (6 Oct 2004)

When I first joined, we had the 50 from the RCAF Sabres mounted on the Lynx.   It differed from the Infantry version by having a much shorter barrel, and having the side mounted solenoid.   When we got rid of the Sabres, the Air Force gave the army hundreds of them, which is why we never did mount the 20mm that the Lynx mount was designed for.

Even in to the 80's, we would sometimes see guns with the shorter barrels.   

I liked the 50.   Of course, I never had to hump it, except from QM to the vehicle.

The other item of note was the fact that Armour drills for the 50 were set for one man, of course.   We had the 50 mounted in the Centurion as a ranging gun, operated by one man, and in the Lynx, operated as one man.   This proved interesting when I was sent on the Small Arms Instructor Course at the Infantry School, and part of the entrance exam was handling and IA's and Stoppages on the 50.   "Number two?   Who needs a stinkin' number two?"

Brings back memories.   Like firing incendiary ammunition dated 1952, made in England, from boxes in which the lids opened sideways, compared to ours.   Never had a stoppage with them.


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## KevinB (7 Oct 2004)

Danjanou,

 That skill is pretty much lost in the mech units already...

When we deployed to Afghan we had to do a .50 refresher and I could count on my hands the # of qualified people in our Coy from SgtMaj on down...


The mech Mg course is now what we refer to as Advanced C6...


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## Danjanou (7 Oct 2004)

Kevin, guess I can't ever come back now eh.

Mortars gone, HMGs gone, well there go two out three of my QL3TQ2s, wanna bet they get rid of Infantry recce soon.

Axeman beleive it or not as I recall the C5 Browning was actually an improvement on the older original C1(?) Browning GPMG/MMG that were literally WW2 era 30 cal Brownings retooled to take the 7.62mm. The C5 had an easier to clean (coated ?) barrel and if you can believe it the head spacing etc. was simpler than on the older versions. 

Man I'm showing my age here.


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## axeman (11 Oct 2004)

Danjanou , Yes I'd believe you that the old C-5 was an improvement over the old 19 whatever it was and neither is it a lewis gun but after being like KEVIN B qual on the C-5 and then  requal on the C-6 I'm just saying that the FN is a great leap forward . it fires great  less teeny tiney parts that can get lost in the mud if you have to go looking for a fault . its ergonomically designed for a simple single or multi person pack, and all the new fixes that  are being done to this weapon are so it can be used in roles not thought of when it was designed  and built . yes i remember that headspaceing and timing on a C5was pain and cannot think of what it woulda been like BEFORE the upgrade kinda like the old .50 when it had an oil buffer in the backplate as apposed to the fiber discs that it has/had  now . little improvements over time mean alot but in the end the C-5 was getting tired and not being adapted to as much as the newer weapons are . there have still now not been any serious attempts to bump MA DEUCE from the position it holds , sure there is the BUSHMASTER AND VULCAN autoncannons but wow who'dever what to hump one to the fire base ?


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## Danjanou (12 Oct 2004)

Axeman,

You're Preaching to the converted my friend. I went through the conversion course when the C6 came into the system and became a quick convert. We finally went and got an excellent piece of kit with it, and versatile too, (SF kit fr defence or sustained fire support in adeliberate attack , and/or bipod quick deploy role on patrols ATC etc.)

My only regret was by then I'd made WO and my Pl Wpns Det Comd wouldn't let the old fart play with his new toy too much    

The C5 Browining was ok for it's time as was the Lewis Gun I guess (I'm not that old) and the Vickers, and Bren too. It was time for it to go and I wasn't really sad to see it sent off to the museum. Now the Ma Duece is another story. There really hasn't been a decent replacement for it, the 20-25mm are a different beast and we still need something to fill that particular niche.


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## KevinB (18 Oct 2004)

Unfortunately the .50's only real niche (in the TO&E paper not reality) in the the LIB's DFS Pl.  Even with the Grenade MG comes online we will still be missing a large portion of our direct fire capability.

Want to chew up a car - .50BMG does it very well  (or a Greek Cypriot fishing vessel for that matter   )
The C6 is a little light in the loafers with the 7.62mm round to do what we need in some circumstances.


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## mudgunner49 (19 Oct 2004)

KevinB said:
			
		

> Unfortunately the .50's only real niche (in the TO&E paper not reality) in the the LIB's DFS Pl.   Even with the Grenade MG comes online we will still be missing a large portion of our direct fire capability.
> 
> Want to chew up a car - .50BMG does it very well   (or a Greek Cypriot fishing vessel for that matter    )
> The C6 is a little light in the loafers with the 7.62mm round to do what we need in some circumstances.
> ...


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## pbi (19 Oct 2004)

Thank God we never actually scrapped the .50-just sidelined it. It is still a happening gun, many years on! Speaking of humping it, I remember when I was on an AMF(L) deployment in Norway (anybody remember those...?) I saw the pack frame that the Norgies had to carry the .50. The gun was carried vertically on a large pack frame, spade grips down, muzzle upwards. Another soldier carried the tripod, and another the ammo. I never saw us adapt anything like that, but it would be useful. Cheers.


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## Danjanou (19 Oct 2004)

pbi said:
			
		

> ...Speaking of humping it, I remember when I was on an AMF(L) deployment in Norway (anybody remember those...?) I saw the pack frame that the Norgies had to carry the .50. The gun was carried vertically on a large pack frame, spade grips down, muzzle upwards. Another soldier carried the tripod, and another the ammo. I never saw us adapt anything like that, but it would be useful. Cheers.



Sounds  lot more effective than bungy cording it to the tobbagan. :

Nice to know they're still gathering dust in some wharehouse for now, rather than being melted down somewhere to show up again as twin blades at the local dollar store. Of course the question remains that if in 10 or 15 years we decide that we need to start using them again, who's going to remember how to, and not just weapons drills but proper deployment etc. Look at how few serving members on this site actually have experience with the weapon now. What are they going to do call us old dinosaurs out of retirement to run ad hoc HMG courses?

Another skill set that will eventually disappear from the military.


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## axeman (19 Oct 2004)

I rember seeint that it was during the fall ex .. Array Encounter wasnt it were we humped all over the north part of norway ....


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## Spr.Earl (24 Oct 2004)

CFL said:
			
		

> Afraid not why?



I had mine back in 95 and I realy enjoyed it,especialy the Anti Air roll,that was fun.
If you get the chance take it.


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## Spr.Earl (24 Oct 2004)

"Axeman beleive it or not as I recall the C5 Browning was actually an improvement on the older original C1(?) Browning GPMG/MMG that were literally WW2 era 30 cal Brownings retooled to take the 7.62mm. The C5 had an easier to clean (coated ?) barrel and if you can believe it the head spacing etc. was simpler than on the older versions."

Danjanou remember the old trick for head spacing the G pig?
A dime?


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## bossi (24 Oct 2004)

pbi said:
			
		

> Speaking of humping it, ... Another soldier carried the tripod, and another the ammo. I never saw us adapt anything like that, but it would be useful. Cheers.



It was only the old GPMG (not a 50) but I remember carrying both the gun and tripod for an entire airmobile exercise because somebody didn't show up ... and my ammo carrier could barely carry his load, let alone anything extra (... so, yes - once again, size does matter ... but, I digress ...)

When it came time to fire on the moving tgt range, somebody tried to muscle me off the gun ... but MWO Damjanoff wouldn't have any of that, saying if I'd carried all exercise I was damn well going to fire it ...
And so, armed with a big honkin' screwdriver, he made sure it kept firing ...
Yup - there's nothing better than somebody who knows what he's doing, when it comes to the Emma Gees (thanks also for that reminder - perhaps one of the best short stories ever written, and the inspiration for my own attempt at writing in that gendre).


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## Spr.Earl (24 Oct 2004)

Axeman it just came to me you were in the C.Q. when I did my Machine Gunners course.  
Not clean enough! 
W.O. Woodward was Platoon W.O.,M.W.O. Soosie (sp) was Platoon Sgt.Maj.


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## pbi (24 Oct 2004)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Of course the question remains that if in 10 or 15 years we decide that we need to start using them again, who's going to remember how to, and not just weapons drills but proper deployment etc. Look at how few serving members on this site actually have experience with the weapon now. What are they going to do call us old dinosaurs out of retirement to run ad hoc HMG courses?
> 
> Another skill set that will eventually disappear from the military.



Well-not necessarily.The .50 is in regular use by US forces right now, so we can see its effectiveness. The decision to start using them again will probably come alot sooner than that, especially as we continue to develop our light forces (not much scope for a 25mm CG there...). As well, we still have a cadre of people left who have used the weapon, although this is a dwindling group. Finally, even if we lost that cadre, remember that we can always start from scratch, just like we do any time a new weapons system is introduced: the .50 cal was a brand ne gun once. Cheers.


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## Spr.Earl (24 Oct 2004)

I still fire it every year for two days,granted it's not in the infantry roll but still do know how to use it and strip,clean and do repairs and it's great now that the problems with the QCB are fixed.


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## foerestedwarrior (24 Oct 2004)

My unit(G&SF) has recently been given 32CBG's direct fire tasking. Which means we are aupposed to be responsible for the bulk of the direct fire support for the brigade. I have been hearing things about getting .50s, but i am more expecting a ML full of C6's. O will keep posted, unless someone else knows anymore about it.


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## patt (24 Oct 2004)

foerestedwarrior said:
			
		

> My unit(G&SF) has recently been given 32CBG's direct fire tasking. Which means we are aupposed to be responsible for the bulk of the direct fire support for the brigade. I have been hearing things about getting .50s, but i am more expecting a ML full of C6's. O will keep posted, unless someone else knows anymore about it.



a bit off but the other night i was down on bayfield street and it looked like a bunch of ML's got lost going to borden


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## MG34 (24 Oct 2004)

Well they may be gone from the militia and some units but here in 1 RCR we still have 4 .50s per rifle company (yes down from 14).We continue to train on and use them quite often,in fact I am running a .50cal shoot next month,with all the ammo I want.Seems like the rest of the brigade doesn't fire theirs anymore for some reason..oh well more ammo for us ;D


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## KevinB (24 Oct 2004)

MG lucky you...

We had to steal a few from 3VP to do our qual's as we dont hold them anymore  ???


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