# Will 2021 see a new pistol buy?



## Haggis (3 Jan 2021)

Yesterday several major newspapers ran an article by a journalist who asserted that the CAF will very soon buy a new pistol.  The RFP is expected to be released in February with a contract awarded in September 2021 with delivery of up to 22,000 modular pistols to begin in the summer of 2022.


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## Ostrozac (3 Jan 2021)

It’s possible. The article in the Ottawa Citizen suggested that the pistols wouldn’t necessarily have to be made in Kitchener, which was the show-stopper in previous evolutions of this procurement. Colt doesn’t make a 9mm service pistol, no one else that did wanted to cooperate with Colt and help them enter that part of the market.

I don’t think the RFP has actually hit the street yet, so probably still too early to guess which pistols would be in the running — the US XM17 project looked at pistols from 8 different manufacturers before selecting the Sig P320, although word on the street was that the Glock 19 was a very close second.


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## kev994 (3 Jan 2021)

How do I vote for “use the Browning for 10 more years”?


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## Jarnhamar (3 Jan 2021)

I really like the feel of the P320 but it's big. I think we should go for a compact sized pistol (believe the P320 has compact sizes). 

My money is on us going with some obscure pistol most of us have never seen or heard of, or a made from scratch monstrocity.


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## dapaterson (3 Jan 2021)

Until the RFP is out, it's a mugs game to figure out what the CAF has defined the requirement to be and how it is to be delivered.  And only after companies submit their offers will we have any idea of what the possibilities are.


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## NavyShooter (4 Jan 2021)

Call up Glock, and order 20,000 Glock 17's, plus 4 spare mags each. 

Problem solved.

It's a smaller order than what they provided for a couple of police departments in the US...we're small potatoes compared to that market.


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## daftandbarmy (4 Jan 2021)

NavyShooter said:


> Call up Glock, and order 20,000 Glock 17's, plus 4 spare mags each.
> 
> Problem solved.
> 
> It's a smaller order than what they provided for a couple of police departments in the US...we're small potatoes compared to that market.


Personally, I like the Glock.

Nothing like three safeties on the most dangerous weapon on earth - to the shooter and other unintended victims: a pistol.


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## PuckChaser (4 Jan 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> I really like the feel of the P320 but it's big. I think we should go for a compact sized pistol (believe the P320 has compact sizes).
> 
> My money is on us going with some obscure pistol most of us have never seen or heard of, or a made from scratch monstrocity.


P320 has 4 sizes, the subcompact is slightly larger than the Glock 26 (which looks like a toy). If we do go with the P320, I hope they go with the Carry model (known as the M18 under US Military program), although the change adverse CAF will probably lean to the Full Size model (M17) as it's extremely similar size to the BHP.


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## OldSolduer (4 Jan 2021)

It will be lowest compliant bidder and from what I've seen for procurement of new equipment it might be 10 years away. Cynical I know....


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## dimsum (4 Jan 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> It will be lowest compliant bidder and from what I've seen for procurement of new equipment it might be 10 years away. Cynical I know....


If it's under $100m, then a bit of the bureaucratic faff gets removed and the process is quicker. 

So maybe 9.5 years.


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## Haggis (4 Jan 2021)

Ostrozac said:


> I don’t think the RFP has actually hit the street yet, so probably still too early to guess which pistols would be in the running — the US XM17 project looked at pistols from 8 different manufacturers before selecting the Sig P320, although word on the street was that the Glock 19 was a very close second.


I can't see the RFP changing much from the previous ones except to drop the requirement for the winning bidder to transfer their IP to Colt Canada.  A COTS solution is the best, of course, as long as Québec's economic and political needs are satisfied.


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## Haggis (4 Jan 2021)

NavyShooter said:


> Call up Glock, and order 20,000 Glock 17's, plus 4 spare mags each.
> 
> Problem solved.
> 
> It's a smaller order than what they provided for a couple of police departments in the US...we're small potatoes compared to that market.


If the GoC were smart, they'd do a buy for all the federal agencies (CAF, RCMP, CBSA etc).  That would be about 50,000 units and worth bidding on by some of the manufacturers who may have passed on it last time as "not worth the effort".

I like the way Glocks shoot, but I own a P320 which I can shoot really well.  I don't like the way Glocks sit in my hand, but I'm retired now and have no dog in this fight.


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## Colin Parkinson (4 Jan 2021)

Last time I heard, a Glock military/police contract price was $265 USD for a pistol with 5 mags. Sig actually under bid Glock to win the contract for the US Army. Both Glock G17 and the Sig M17 are excellent pistols and would be good choices for the military. The numbers we are interested in equal about a buy similar to a large US Police Force, so we won't have much pull on pricing. The US Army uses the M17 and the British the G17, so really the competition should ride on price and service support.
The sad part is the idiots will want to destroy all of our WWII Inglis made BHP Pistols. These would be worth a lot of money on the collectors market, likley the government could recoup anywhere from $100-200 for an issued pistol and double that for a mint unissued one. To destroy these pistols is criminal, not only do they represent some of Canada's finniest moments, but also part of the WWII generation investments that poured money into war bonds to produce them. Plus these pistols were mostly made by women that represent the true first wave of real feminism and breaking down of tradition job barriers.


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## Haggis (4 Jan 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Last time I heard, a Glock military/police contract price was $265 USD for a pistol with 5 mags. Sig actually under bid Glock to win the contract for the US Army. Both Glock G17 and the Sig M17 are excellent pistols and would be good choices for the military. The numbers we are interested in equal about a buy similar to a large US Police Force, so we won't have much pull on pricing. The US Army uses the M17 and the British the G17, so really the competition should ride on price and service support.
> The sad part is the idiots will want to destroy all of our WWII Inglis made BHP Pistols. These would be worth a lot of money on the collectors market, likley the government could recoup anywhere from $100-200 for an issued pistol and double that for a mint unissued one. To destroy these pistols is criminal, not only do they represent some of Canada's finniest moments, but also part of the WWII generation investments that poured money into war bonds to produce them. Plus these pistols were mostly made by women that represent the true first wave of real feminism and breaking down of tradition job barriers.


Glock practically gave their pistols to the Ottawa Police in order to win that contract. Some RCMP units are already using Glocks.  If someone gave me a free Glock, I wouldn't turn it down.  They shoot well, they just don't fit my hand well.

The current government has no interest in gun related history.  Remember, the Trudeau Liberals intend to ban civilian ownership of handguns regionally, if not nationally, in the very near future. This would affect collectors.


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## NavyShooter (4 Jan 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Last time I heard, a Glock military/police contract price was $265 USD for a pistol with 5 mags. Sig actually under bid Glock to win the contract for the US Army. Both Glock G17 and the Sig M17 are excellent pistols and would be good choices for the military. The numbers we are interested in equal about a buy similar to a large US Police Force, so we won't have much pull on pricing. The US Army uses the M17 and the British the G17, so really the competition should ride on price and service support.
> The sad part is the idiots will want to destroy all of our WWII Inglis made BHP Pistols. These would be worth a lot of money on the collectors market, likley the government could recoup anywhere from $100-200 for an issued pistol and double that for a mint unissued one. To destroy these pistols is criminal, not only do they represent some of Canada's finniest moments, but also part of the WWII generation investments that poured money into war bonds to produce them. Plus these pistols were mostly made by women that represent the true first wave of real feminism and breaking down of tradition job barriers.



Recently, a mint, unissued HP with the Lend/Lease decal intact (in original box) sold on the civilian market for about $4000.

Used Inglis High Powers with CH range serial numbers (Chinese Contract - tangent rear sight and slotted backstrap for the shoulder stock) usually sell for over $1000.

Used Inglis HP's with T range serial numbers never sell for less than $1000.  Usually more.


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## Haggis (4 Jan 2021)

The last thing the Trudeau Liberals want to do is add more guns to the civilian stream, particularly if they are about to ban them.  Even without a ban, they would be terrified of one being "diverted" to the criminal steam and traced back as a "former government gun".


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## Jarnhamar (4 Jan 2021)

Maybe Norinco will get the contract.


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## Colin Parkinson (4 Jan 2021)

Norinco made 80,000 P226 copies in 7.62x25 for Pakistan recently, likley they could supply Canada in a couple of days. Sig sold 500,000 2022's  to France to arm their Federal Police.


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## Haggis (4 Jan 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Maybe Norinco will get the contract.


And they will likely provide a knock-off Browning High Power.  Think of what we would save on training, parts and ancillary supplies.


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## Colin Parkinson (4 Jan 2021)

They did make a copy a long time ago, but apparently it was really bad, even by Norinco standards


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## Fishbone Jones (5 Jan 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Last time I heard, a Glock military/police contract price was $265 USD for a pistol with 5 mags. Sig actually under bid Glock to win the contract for the US Army. Both Glock G17 and the Sig M17 are excellent pistols and would be good choices for the military. The numbers we are interested in equal about a buy similar to a large US Police Force, so we won't have much pull on pricing. The US Army uses the M17 and the British the G17, so really the competition should ride on price and service support.
> The sad part is the idiots will want to destroy all of our WWII Inglis made BHP Pistols. These would be worth a lot of money on the collectors market, likley the government could recoup anywhere from $100-200 for an issued pistol and double that for a mint unissued one. To destroy these pistols is criminal, not only do they represent some of Canada's finniest moments, but also part of the WWII generation investments that poured money into war bonds to produce them. Plus these pistols were mostly made by women that represent the true first wave of real feminism and breaking down of tradition job barriers.


Firms can afford to underbid a military contract in the US. Once the gun is picked for military use. Thousands get sold on the civilian market at inflated prices. Gun owners down there are almost religious at buying what the government uses.

I seem to recall it is government policy here not to release government surplus guns to the civilian market.


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## Colin Parkinson (5 Jan 2021)

It is their policy and it's wrong, a utter waste of resources and harmful to history to do so.


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## Fishbone Jones (5 Jan 2021)

I like the US Civilian Marksman Program. It'd be nice if we could have it here.








						Home - Civilian Marksmanship Program
					

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					old.thecmp.org


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## Good2Golf (5 Jan 2021)

Haggis said:


> The current government has no interest in gun related history.  Remember, the Trudeau Liberals intend to ban civilian ownership of handguns regionally, if not nationally, in the very near future. This would affect collectors.



And they get real quiet too when you point out to them that is was the Liberal government of the day that (sought out and) approved use of U.S.-supplied nuclear weapons.

#inconvenienttruths


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## blacktriangle (5 Jan 2021)

Will be there improved pistol training for the masses to go along with new pistols? Always seemed to be lacking in the CA itself.


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## PuckChaser (6 Jan 2021)

I would hope so. From what I've heard the Army has updated its drills and gone to more "workspace" IAs and drills from CANSOF lessons learned, so potentially a new pistol will mean being able to update 1950s drills and use the same workspace concept.


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## CBH99 (6 Jan 2021)

Other than a basic qualification and some range time prior to deployment, I don't think I even touched a pistol during my time in the Army.  It was mostly for show at COMREL events.

Between the C7, C6, C9, and various weapon systems found on LAV's and Leopards - I believe the reasoning was that if you find yourself relying on a BHP while deployed to the sandbox, you're probably as good as dead.


I'm sure naval boarding parties and MP's get adequate training & familiarization on their sidearms to be proficient with modern use, but the 'big green machine' was pretty lacking.


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## Haggis (6 Jan 2021)

PuckChaser said:


> I would hope so. From what I've heard the Army has updated its drills and gone to more "workspace" IAs and drills from CANSOF lessons learned, so potentially a new pistol will mean being able to update 1950s drills and use the same workspace concept.


The same drills that law enforcement and competitive shooters have been using for two decades.


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## Jarnhamar (6 Jan 2021)

PuckChaser said:


> IAs and drills from CANSOF lessons learned


We have a lot of brainwashed people who have a conniption at the idea of adopting intelligent and common sense based practices from CANSOF. 

"we're not CANSOF"  whether it's gun drills or wearing  tan coloured gloves. 

We also have leaders that think pistols are only for officers (to denote status) or office workers so they don't have to lug about a "heavy rifle".  Getting off topic though.


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## Weinie (6 Jan 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> And they get real quiet too when you point out to them that is was the Liberal government of the day that (sought out and) *approved use of U.S.-supplied nuclear weapons.*
> 
> #inconvenienttruths


Ah, the good old days.


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## PuckChaser (6 Jan 2021)

Haggis said:


> The same drills that law enforcement and competitive shooters have been using for two decades.


It's almost like they're practical, simple and efficient... 3 tenets we steer clear of in the CAF unfortunately...


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## dimsum (7 Jan 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> We also have leaders that think pistols are only for officers (to denote status)


What is this, 1916?


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## Colin Parkinson (7 Jan 2021)

reveng said:


> Will be there improved pistol training for the masses to go along with new pistols? Always seemed to be lacking in the CA itself.


The pistol training in the 1980 was dismal. I tell people I can shoot pistol despite my army training, it really was the blind leading the blind. From what i have seen online, army pistol training has improved. IPSC and IDPA came about to teach police officers how to shoot and survive, IPSC has become very sports oriented and IDPA a bit more scenario based. Getting involved in either will hone your shooting skills significantly. If you get into reloading your firearm knowledge will go leaps and bounds over what the army teaches. It was people like Jeff Cooper and Jack Weaver that really pushed the improvement in firearms training in the late 20th century, that was later adopted by SWAT teams and SF units. Although some people say the discipline really started with Fairbairn–Sykes.


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## Ostrozac (7 Jan 2021)

dimsum said:


> What is this, 1916?


You’ve probably got to go even earlier than that. By 1916 the revolver was a standard issue item for Vickers machinegun crews and for the cavalry, regardless of rank. And by 1917, the practice of an officer privately purchasing his pistol ceased. For the height of the “pistol as officer’s jewelry“ era you’ve got to look at the pre-Great War era. 

Pistols are still very important to vehicle and heavy weapons crews, which is why it makes me sad when they are instead hoarded by headquarters types that have plenty of storage room under their desks for a rifle.


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## PuckChaser (7 Jan 2021)

Part of the problem is having a 20"barrel isnt practical for most HQ staff. If the CA looked at personal weapons properly, they'd realize if you gave those HQ, Sigs, Medics, vehicle crews all C8A3s, you'd be able to reallocate secondary weapons to individuals who are actually closing to within effective range of a 9mm pistol.

Or we just get enough money to buy pistols for everyone, but I know we'd get assault Unicorns with mesh network controlled laser weapons before then.


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## Ostrozac (7 Jan 2021)

PuckChaser said:


> Part of the problem is having a 20"barrel isnt practical for most HQ staff. If the CA looked at personal weapons properly, they'd realize if you gave those HQ, Sigs, Medics, vehicle crews all C8A3s, you'd be able to reallocate secondary weapons to individuals who are actually closing to within effective range of a 9mm pistol.


That’s a fair argument, I’d go further and say that SARP erred when they selected the C8 as the replacement for the SMG C1. They replaced a 19 inch (folded) SMG with a 30 inch (collapsed) carbine. The C8 is a smallish rifle, not a true personal defence weapon. Pistols have their role, but office workers should have something like the 16 inch (collapsed) MP7.


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## Kat Stevens (7 Jan 2021)

Ostrozac said:


> You’ve probably got to go even earlier than that. By 1916 the revolver was a standard issue item for Vickers machinegun crews and for the cavalry, regardless of rank. And by 1917, the practice of an officer privately purchasing his pistol ceased. For the height of the “pistol as officer’s jewelry“ era you’ve got to look at the pre-Great War era.
> 
> Pistols are still very important to vehicle and heavy weapons crews, which is why it makes me sad when they are instead hoarded by headquarters types that have plenty of storage room under their desks for a rifle.


NOBODY below the rank of WO was issued a pistol until we started going to other countries en mass, early 90s, at least in engineer regiments.


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## Haggis (19 Jan 2021)

With a possible buy of up to 22K units, everyone will want a pistol because it will be the newest piece of LCF kit.  Sadly, most will apply the archaic marksmanship lessons they used with the BHP and be no further ahead.  A new pistol should come with a new teaching and shooting package for the mainstream military.  Some specialist occupations and forward thinking units do very well in this regard.  The rest, well, miss the mark.


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## Fishbone Jones (20 Jan 2021)

Kat Stevens said:


> NOBODY below the rank of WO was issued a pistol until we started going to other countries en mass, early 90s, at least in engineer regiments.


As a Cpl, driving a tank in 72-75 Germany, my personal weapon was a Browning. I think it's more dependent on unit individual taskings and TO&E.


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## Fishbone Jones (20 Jan 2021)

Haggis said:


> With a possible buy of up to 22K units, everyone will want a pistol because it will be the newest piece of LCF kit.  Sadly, most will apply the archaic marksmanship lessons they used with the BHP and be no further ahead.  A new pistol should come with a new teaching and shooting package for the mainstream military.  Some specialist occupations and forward thinking units do very well in this regard.  The rest, well, miss the mark.


Apologies, I used your post to quote the whole subject.
I think the idea of new pistols is great. I also think new, updated training is a must.
I also think it's  good to talk and discuss it.
However, this is a DND contract. We have a government that cares less about people, let alone equipment. And they have had a dismal record of delivering on time, if at all. By all means, hope and plan but I wouldn't start placing any bets right now.


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## Haggis (20 Jan 2021)

Fishbone Jones said:


> We have a government that cares less about people, let alone equipment. And they have had a dismal record of delivering on time, if at all. By all means, hope and plan but I wouldn't start placing any bets right now.


Which is why I titled the thread as a question and not a statement.  

The history of the BHP replacement is a long one.  However if the C20 sniper system is a predictor of future weapons procurements under this government, we might actually see a new pistol in the near future.


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## Cdn Blackshirt (20 Jan 2021)

Haggis said:


> If the GoC were smart, they'd do a buy for all the federal agencies (CAF, RCMP, CBSA etc).  That would be about 50,000 units and worth bidding on by some of the manufacturers who may have passed on it last time as "not worth the effort".
> 
> I like the way Glocks shoot, but I own a P320 which I can shoot really well.  I don't like the way Glocks sit in my hand, but I'm retired now and have no dog in this fight.



I'm pretty sure Glock started including adjustable back straps with their Gen 4 model to address your common complaint.


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## Haggis (20 Jan 2021)

Cdn Blackshirt said:


> I'm pretty sure Glock started including adjustable back straps with their Gen 4 model to address your common complaint.


It's not that.  There's a small but significant divot/notch at the bottom of the trigger guard where it meets the pistol grip.  That digs into my middle finger while shooting.


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## Kat Stevens (20 Jan 2021)

Haggis said:


> It's not that.  There's a small but significant divot/notch at the bottom of the trigger guard where it meets the pistol grip.  That digs into my middle finger while shooting.
> View attachment 64408


Fortunately, your government, in it's never ending pursuit of the finest gear available for our troops, has already sourced a gender neutral culturally diverse solution to this problem.


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## Jarnhamar (20 Jan 2021)

Haggis said:


> It's not that.  There's a small but significant divot/notch at the bottom of the trigger guard where it meets the pistol grip.  That digs into my middle finger while shooting.
> View attachment 64408


$50 from BlackBox Customs might help with that.









						Black Box Customs - Frame Work
					

Quality doesn't happen by accident. It can't be reached by taking shortcuts. Each and every single stipple is pressed in by hand, to depth and pattern depending on the result you're trying to achieve. Grips, frames, rail covers, magazines, shotgun pumps, knife scales, even phone ca




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## Haggis (20 Jan 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> $50 from BlackBox Customs might help with that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, since I don't own a Glock (and probably never will) and my days of firing CAF issued guns are over, my problem has already been solved.  That is until my agency goes Glock....


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## Jarnhamar (20 Jan 2021)

Haggis said:


> Well, since I don't own a Glock (and probably never will)


Good thing you have classy friends, I'll bring some up


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## Retired AF Guy (24 Jan 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> They did make a copy a long time ago, but apparently it was really bad, even by Norinco standards



Speaking of copies I was looking at a Turkish made copy of the Hi-Power while back and it looked pretty good. A good write-up is here.

I didn't know this until I read the above linked article but Browning was still making Hi-Powers in the US up till 2017. So how come Canada didn't just go and order some new pistols from the US?


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## MJP (24 Jan 2021)

Retired AF Guy said:


> Speaking of copies I was looking at a Turkish made copy of the Hi-Power while back and it looked pretty good. A good write-up is here.
> 
> I didn't know this until I read the above linked article but Browning was still making Hi-Powers in the US up till 2017. So how come Canada didn't just go and order some new pistols from the US?


Cause there were thousands (I haven't pulled the numbers in a few years but we had lots)  in Op Stock so we didn't need a new pistol per se. Ordering more would have triggered the process they are going through now so it would have been moot.


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## Colin Parkinson (24 Jan 2021)

Retired AF Guy said:


> Speaking of copies I was looking at a Turkish made copy of the Hi-Power while back and it looked pretty good. A good write-up is here.
> 
> I didn't know this until I read the above linked article but Browning was still making Hi-Powers in the US up till 2017. So how come Canada didn't just go and order some new pistols from the US?


I have a Portuguese made one, the righthand side of the safety snapped off, thanks to a bad casting. I fondled the Turkish ones, they are very nicely done. However both the Glock and the M17 are better all round pistols than the BHP, which has a design flaw that limits the life of the frame, not generally a problem in army service where each pistol sees about 200 rds a year at best. What destroys most of them is the cleaning process.


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## MilEME09 (24 Jan 2021)

PuckChaser said:


> Part of the problem is having a 20"barrel isnt practical for most HQ staff. If the CA looked at personal weapons properly, they'd realize if you gave those HQ, Sigs, Medics, vehicle crews all C8A3s, you'd be able to reallocate secondary weapons to individuals who are actually closing to within effective range of a 9mm pistol.
> 
> Or we just get enough money to buy pistols for everyone, but I know we'd get assault Unicorns with mesh network controlled laser weapons before then.


From what I was told by my former Adj back in about 2013, the CA looked at PDW type weapons for vehicle crews, and CSS types. Result was a couple options were explored/looked at. P90's and FN Five seven pistols (company was willing to throw in the pistol if the p90 was bought), MP7s w/pistol, or C8s. Ultimately due to logistics the C8 was seen as the better option, however with the end of Afghanistan and shrinking budgets the whole idea was shelved.


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## Haggis (12 Feb 2021)

Now that CZ has bought Colt and Colt Canada, maybe the CAF will see a Shadow II in their holsters soon?


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## PuckChaser (12 Feb 2021)

Is it in use in any NATO country? Pretty sure that was a requirement.


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## CBH99 (12 Feb 2021)

While it's important that whatever pistol we choose is proven, reliable, and already 'in service' or 'in use' -- how important is it that the M17/M18 has been adopted by the US Military en masse?  

I understand the rationale for things such as fighter jets, trucks, logistics vehicles, IFV's, etc etc - to have similar models in use with our primary allies, as it really does help ease maintenance while deployed to theatre.  Bonus if all the big players are using the same kind of ammunition, fuel, radios, etc etc.

I also understand the pricing advantages there are to buying those things when an economy of scale can be taken advantage of, along with working production lines.  


However, when it comes to something like a pistol - how important is it that it is in service with the US?  Would there be any savings, or any advantage in ease of maintenance, just because the same model is in US Military use?  (Sorry if the answer is obvious... I'm just having a hard time linking the maintenance & compatibility issues of a fighter jet or IFV in theatre, with that of a pistol.)


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## dapaterson (12 Feb 2021)

Purchasing an in service model is more about proven reliability.  Only user of an item? You are paying for all non-recurring engineering, premium prices for spares etc etc.  Many other users? More availability and better support.


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## Haggis (12 Feb 2021)

One of the previous stumbling blocks in CAF pistol procurement was the requirement for the winning bidder to transfer their intellectual property rights to Colt Canada so the pistol could be built here under licence.  Now that Colt Canada has been purchased by CZG, that requirement becomes moot as the winning bidder's IP would fall into the hands of a Czech corporation.  This, in my opinion,, will probably result in a much accelerated COTS buy and I suspect it will be a Sig Sauer or Glock.



dapaterson said:


> Purchasing an in service model is more about proven reliability.  Only user of an item? You are paying for all non-recurring engineering, premium prices for spares etc etc.  Many other users? More availability and better support.


CZG has a number of proven pistols on the market and in use by police and military units around the world.  They have made small inroads into the North American police market, but nothing compared to the Sig Sauer and Glock products.  As far as I know, they didn't become involved in the previous attempts at supplying a new CAF pistol.


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## Haggis (12 Feb 2021)

PuckChaser said:


> Is it in use in any NATO country? Pretty sure that was a requirement.


The CZ-75 received NATO certification about 15 years ago and even has it's own NSN.


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## Fabius (12 Feb 2021)

I don't see how CZ Group now owning Colt will make the IP issue moot.   If the GoC remains committed to owning the IP, there is no way that Sig, Glock  etc. will transfer their IP to CZ, one of the main players in the pistol market. 

However the IP issue is likely not relevant as from what I understand the discussion right now 2021 is an interim pistol not a full replacement. I suspect therefore that it will be a COTS with no IP transfer.

However that means that the numbers will be small in relation to industry averages for departments, and we would likely not be able to access some of the production lines such as the Sig line for M17 or the Sig 320 DHS Models all of which I am tracking require orders over 15,000 units.  Given the JTF-2 withdrawal of the Sig 320 (even if we could purchase the DoD or DHS  variants) for what ever duration, I don't suspect we will rush to purchase  variants of that pistol, narrowing our options


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## Haggis (12 Feb 2021)

Fabius said:


> I don't see how CZ Group now owning Colt will make the IP issue moot.   If the GoC remains committed to owning the IP, there is no way that Sig, Glock  etc. will transfer their IP to CZ, one of the main players in the pistol market.
> 
> However the IP issue is likely not relevant as from what I understand the discussion right now 2021 is an interim pistol not a full replacement. I suspect therefore that it will be a COTS with no IP transfer.
> 
> However that means that the numbers will be small in relation to industry averages for departments, and we would likely not be able to access some of the production lines such as the Sig line for M17 or the Sig 320 DHS Models all of which I am tracking require orders over 15,000 units.  Given the JTF-2 withdrawal of the Sig 320 (even if we could purchase the DoD or DHS  variants) for what ever duration, I don't suspect we will rush to purchase  variants of that pistol, narrowing our options


The media talked of a buy of up to 22,000 units.  That doesn't seem like an interim pistol replacement.  But, after what we did buying used Aussie F-18's as an interim replacement, nothing would surprise me.  22,000 CAF units could be combined with the requirements of other federal agencies to create a sizeable order.


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## CBH99 (12 Feb 2021)

Haggis said:


> The media talked of a buy of up to 22,000 units.  That doesn't seem like an interim pistol replacement.  But, after what we did buying used Aussie F-18's as an interim replacement, nothing would surprise me.  22,000 CAF units could be combined with the requirements of other federal agencies to create a sizeable order.


Equip all federal agencies with the same model, streamlining training, spare parts, and getting some of the benefits of economy of scale?

Wake up Haggis, it's already 1pm here in Alberta....smell the coffee, wake up mate.  Dream time is over.


----------



## Fabius (16 Feb 2021)

Reports by the media of 22,000 units are wrong I am pretty sure.  They are confusing the currently unfunded CAF General Service Pistol Replacement project which is currently not programed to deliver anything for at least 10 plus years ( it would seem that when our last attempt failed we kicked the can really far down the road) and the ARMY interim Pistol project which apparently will be aiming at not more than 9000 units, more likely IVO 7000 units.  It seems this interim buy is going to be a one off purchase with no long term support and is going to be lucky I think to get an RFP out in 2021.


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## Haggis (18 Feb 2021)

Fabius said:


> Reports by the media of 22,000 units are wrong I am pretty sure.  They are confusing the currently unfunded CAF General Service Pistol Replacement project which is currently not programed to deliver anything for at least 10 plus years ( it would seem that when our last attempt failed we kicked the can really far down the road) and the ARMY interim Pistol project which apparently will be aiming at not more than 9000 units, more likely IVO 7000 units.  It seems this interim buy is going to be a one off purchase with no long term support and is going to be lucky I think to get an RFP out in 2021.


All I have to go by is articles like this,, the interim buy is part of the GSP replacement. 

_"An RFP for the *General Service Pistol* replacement project will be issued in winter 2021 and a contract should be awarded by next summer, an official with the Assistant Deputy Minister (Materiel) branch confirmed.

The intent is to acquire a minimum of 9,000 full-frame, modular automatic pistols in an “initial buy” to support Army requirements. First delivery would be by the summer of 2022. However, the total contract could involve between 15,000 and 20,000 pistols."_


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## CBH99 (18 Feb 2021)

Could someone briefly clarify this matter of 2 separate pistol contracts, as referred to above?  The upcoming competition to be announced this year, and then the unfunded CAF General Service Pistol down the road?

Why 2 different projects?


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## Fabius (18 Feb 2021)

I suspect that the official is either being misunderstood or was unclear in the conversation.
There are still two programs according to DLR.  The first is being run by the Army for the Army so to speak. This is the 9000 pistols to replace the pistols in the front line ground combat units.  The second program is run by the Army on behalf of the CAF so to speak. This is the CAF General Service Pistol Replacement which is again according to what I have seen is unfunded due to CAF priorities (Note that I did not say Army priorities) being else where for those funds.  The CAF program when it comes around may/or may not buy the same pistol as the Army Program but there is no guarantee.
Basically the two programs come down to different dollar amounts which link to different funding envelopes which lead to different authority levels. Least that's how I understand this whole thing.
I think for us in the field force either way we will get a new pistol sometime in the next 2-3 years and then maybe another new pistol about 10 years out, or at least in service support for the pistol we just bought?


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## CBH99 (18 Feb 2021)

Goodness gracious.  The cost difference between buying 9,000 pistols for the Army field force, and 15,000 to 20,000 for a CAF wide pistol replacement wouldn't be all that different.  This isn't exactly a 'huge budget' program.

Why not just skip ahead and buy the CAF replacement pistol instead?


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## Haggis (18 Feb 2021)

CBH99 said:


> Goodness gracious.  The cost difference between buying 9,000 pistols for the Army field force, and 15,000 to 20,000 for a CAF wide pistol replacement wouldn't be all that different.  This isn't exactly a 'huge budget' program.
> 
> Why not just skip ahead and buy the CAF replacement pistol instead?


Wake up, CHB, it's already 10:30 AM here in Ontario... smell the coffee, wake up, mate. Dream time is over.


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## CBH99 (18 Feb 2021)

Well played sir, well played


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## Weinie (18 Feb 2021)

Haggis said:


> Wake up, *CHB*, it's already 10:30 AM here in Ontario... smell the coffee, wake up, mate. Dream time is over.


Somebody else needs some coffee  
CBH99​


----------



## CBH99 (18 Feb 2021)

Yeah, take that Haggis!!  

_Just going to glide right over the fact that I didn't notice that myself..._


----------



## Weinie (18 Feb 2021)

CBH99 said:


> Yeah, take that Haggis!!
> 
> _Just going to glide right over the fact that I didn't notice that myself..._


I got your back man!


----------



## CanScotPatricia (22 Feb 2021)

The talk of replacing the Hi Power has been going on for years, when I joined the reserves in 81, there was talk of the Baretta 92 being adopted, but an armourer told me that Canada has a huge stock of surplus Brownings left over from WW2. When I transferred to the regular force, there were rumours that the Glock was being considered. There are half a dozen excellent pistols Canada could buy off the shelf, pistols that have gone laborious evaluation elsewhere, why reinvent the wheel? The Sig 320 or the HK USP would be perfect, right out of the box.


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## johnmorgan (23 Feb 2021)

Hi everyone. Can anyone exlain me what is the British version of Glock 17? I know the only Austrian one.
​


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## Colin Parkinson (23 Feb 2021)

Mot much difference  https://www.eliteukforces.info/weapons/glock-pistol/


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## johnmorgan (25 Feb 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Mot much difference  https://www.eliteukforces.info/weapons/glock-pistol/


Hi, thanks a lot for your reply.


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## OldSolduer (25 Feb 2021)

CanScotPatricia said:


> The talk of replacing the Hi Power has been going on for years, when I joined the reserves in 81, there was talk of the Baretta 92 being adopted, but an armourer told me that Canada has a huge stock of surplus Brownings left over from WW2. When I transferred to the regular force, there were rumours that the Glock was being considered. There are half a dozen excellent pistols Canada could buy off the shelf, pistols that have gone laborious evaluation elsewhere, why reinvent the wheel? The Sig 320 or the HK USP would be perfect, right out of the box.


Because that is what we do - extensively test something combat proven, modify the sh*t out of it to make it "Canadian" and then wonder why the bloody things won't work.


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## Haggis (25 Feb 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> Because that is what we do - extensively test something combat proven, modify the sh*t out of it to make it "Canadian" and then wonder why the bloody things won't work.


Glock already sells pistols with an engraved Maple leaf.  Problem solved.


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## PuckChaser (27 Feb 2021)

Draft RFP has been released: Soldiersystems.net

Attached is the technical performance document from Buyandsell.


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## brihard (27 Feb 2021)

Striker fired.
9x19mm.
17 round double stack mag.
5.5-6lb trigger pull.
No external safety.
Loaded chamber indicator.
No decocking switch.
Must be able to fire with no mag inserted.
Must be ambidextrous, but this can be by lefty to righty conversion.
M1913 rail.
Must have an available conversion kit to make it .40 cal with the same trigger group.
Must be able to swap barrels for one that accepts a suppressor.
Must be able to replace the slide with one that mounts a red dot.
Must be able to be disassembled without pulling the trigger.

So, pistol people: what’s in play?


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## Haggis (27 Feb 2021)

brihard said:


> Striker fired
> 9x19mm
> 17 round double stack mag
> 5.5-6lb trigger pull
> ...



 must have a striker deactivation button or other mechanical mechanism that will allow the shooter to disassemble the pistol *without having to pull the trigger.*

That rules out Glock.


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## PuckChaser (28 Feb 2021)

Quick look through CZ's offerings, only the P-10 looks like it could be close to meeting the specs, but not enough detail to know for sure. Everything else they offer has either a manual safety or decocker.


----------



## Ostrozac (28 Feb 2021)

PuckChaser said:


> Quick look through CZ's offerings, only the P-10 looks like it could be close to meeting the specs, but not enough detail to know for sure. Everything else they offer has either a manual safety or decocker.


I’m not sure that the full size CZ P-10 F is available in 40 cal. The compact CZ P-10 C is available in both 9 and 40, but the compact version doesn’t meet the magazine size requirement (only 15 in 9mm).

Sig P320 seems to check all the boxes. So does S&W M&P.


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## Haggis (28 Feb 2021)

Ostrozac said:


> So does S&W M&P.


Not likely.  Victims of the Danforth shooting are suing S&W.  The last thing the Liberals want to see on the front page is "_Trudeau Government Buys New Military Pistol Made by Danforth Gun Manufacturer"_


----------



## Retired AF Guy (5 May 2021)

On 05 May, Public Works and Government Services Canada issued a tender for a new pistol (C22 Modular Pistol Project} to replace the venerable Browning Hi-Power:



> The current service pistol of most of the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) is the 9mm Browning Hi-Power. The design dates to 1935 and it was procured at the end of the Second World War. The CAF fleet of Browning Hi-Power pistols has deteriorated to the point that it has become unsustainable and too unreliable for operations. The security environment will continue to exhibit high volatility and uncertainty. CAF personnel, when committed to the Contemporary Operating Environment, are assigned operational responsibility over exceptionally large and varied geographical areas. Threats can originate from any direction with little or no warning. CAF personnel require a reliable and effective personal weapon and holster system to deal with constrained close-range situations.  The C22 MPP will ensure that CAF personnel have a precise modular pistol and holster system that is reliable and dependable when used by personnel in operational situations from urban areas through dense vegetation to open savannah, arctic and desert under a wide range of climatic conditions.



At the bottom of the above page is a zip file that lists all the various annexes, appendices, etc dealing with the project. Attached below is the one dealing with the technical and performance specifications.


----------



## Haggis (6 May 2021)

Retired AF Guy said:


> On 05 May, Public Works and Government Services Canada issued a tender for a new pistol (C22 Modular Pistol Project} to replace the venerable Browning Hi-Power:


Does the country with the PM's most admired basic dictatorship manufacture knock-offs of the M17/M18?


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## Colin Parkinson (6 May 2021)

They did produce a pistol that might come close to the requirements

QSZ-92 - Wikipedia


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## CBH99 (6 May 2021)

Haggis said:


> Not likely.  Victims of the Danforth shooting are suing S&W.  The last thing the Liberals want to see on the front page is "_Trudeau Government Buys New Military Pistol Made by Danforth Gun Manufacturer"_


That’s so true, hadn’t thought of that potential optic before.  Shame things these days are so silly - and the media for sure would make a point of drawing a connection.


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## Loachman (10 May 2021)

Haggis said:


> as long as Québec's economic and political needs are satisfied.



Those cowboy- and work-boot manufacturers that kept getting contract after contract for combat boots would be a shoe-in for snazzy state-of-the-art holsters.


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## Haggis (10 May 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> They did produce a pistol that might come close to the requirements
> 
> QSZ-92 - Wikipedia





Loachman said:


> Those *cowboy- and work-boot* manufacturers that kept getting contract after contract for *combat boots *would be a *shoe-in* for snazzy state-of-the-art holsters.


I see what you did there.  You are sole-less.


----------



## NavyShooter (10 May 2021)

If you reference para 3.7.1 about the Trigger Group...they have basically written this Document to knock every single pistol except the Sig P320 out of the running.  

"3.7.1 The trigger group must be removable as a complete assembly."

So, basically, they have written this as a sole -source contract, without specifying it to be a sole-source, because someone out there in handgun land could have another pistol that meets this criteria...

I thought we'd learned from doing that the first time around (or maybe the second?) on the pistol contract?


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## Colin Parkinson (11 May 2021)

That and the Sig 2022, plus this baby (Combat proven)


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## Maxman1 (13 May 2021)

Beretta APX, Ruger American Pistol and Steyr M9A2 all meet the specifications.


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## Haggis (13 May 2021)

Maxman1 said:


> Beretta APX, Ruger American Pistol and Steyr M9A2 all meet the specifications.


Although I own a P-320, I will say that the APX is a nice shooting pistol.  Two things put it out of the running, in my mind.  First, it has an aggressive styling which may offend some gentler folk.  Second, our political masters religiously believe in the relevance of polls and my poll, above, favoured the P-320.


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## medic5 (13 May 2021)

Haggis said:


> Not likely.  Victims of the Danforth shooting are suing S&W.  The last thing the Liberals want to see on the front page is "_Trudeau Government Buys New Military Pistol Made by Danforth Gun Manufacturer"_


Too bad. I've shot an M&P 9, and I'm a big fan of it.


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## Maxman1 (13 May 2021)

Guaranteed that lawsuit goes nowhere. Manufacturers are immunized from liability for criminal misuse.

It's a shame they won't consider the M&P9 2.0 for replacement.


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## Haggis (14 May 2021)

Maxman1 said:


> Guaranteed that lawsuit goes nowhere. Manufacturers are immunized from liability for criminal misuse.
> 
> It's a shame they won't consider the M&P9 2.0 for replacement.


Most major gun manufacturers are sued regularly and this suit will probably drag on for a long time.  In this case, I believe optics matters more than features to our government.


----------



## Jarnhamar (14 May 2021)

We should go with a Sig 1911 tacops.

.45cal which is awesome. 10mm too because some people apparently like that.

9mm and .22cal option for GBA+ (small hands or don't like the recoil). Cheap ammo for practice also.

Probably fits in the BHP holsters so some money savings there.


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## Jarnhamar (21 Jul 2021)

Should have went with the 1911


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## OldSolduer (21 Jul 2021)

Not surprising in this day and age


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## Haggis (21 Jul 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> We should go with a Sig 1911 tacops.
> 
> .45cal which is awesome. 10mm too because some people apparently like that.
> 
> ...


We never had a proper holster for the BHP unless the troop bought one themselves.  So much for that argument....


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## Maxman1 (21 Jul 2021)

For Glock's claims of "supporting the troops" they sure are going out of their way to screw the CAF out of a new pistol over an $18 million contract.


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## dimsum (21 Jul 2021)

Maxman1 said:


> For Glock's claims of "supporting the troops" they sure are going out of their way to screw the CAF out of a new pistol over an $18 million contract.


That's because they tried (and failed) to do the same thing for the US Army pistol buy.


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## Haggis (21 Jul 2021)

That actually took a lot longer than expected.


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## SeaKingTacco (21 Jul 2021)

Haggis said:


> That actually took a lot longer than expected.


What- the buy or Glock‘s temper tantrum?


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## dimsum (21 Jul 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> What- the buy or Glock‘s temper tantrum?


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## dangerboy (21 Jul 2021)

dimsum said:


> That's because they tried (and failed) to do the same thing for the US Army pistol buy.


Here is the link to the US Government Accountability Office report on Glock's protest on not winning the US Army's contract (for different reasons).  https://www.gao.gov/assets/690/685461.pdf


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## Haggis (21 Jul 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> What- the buy or Glock‘s temper tantrum?


The temper tantrum. The buy is proceeding along standard GoC procurement timelines.


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## tomydoom (21 Jul 2021)

Haggis said:


> The temper tantrum. The buy is proceeding along standard GoC procurement timelines.


So the BHP will end up with a service life similar to the Brown Bess?


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## Haggis (21 Jul 2021)

tomydoom said:


> So the BHP will end up with a service life similar to the Brown Bess?


Hopefully the CAF commissions a 100th anniversary BHP.


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## Loachman (21 Jul 2021)

tomydoom said:


> So the BHP will end up with a service life similar to the Brown Bess?



I am sure that there is a crate or two of Brown Bess bayonets languishing under several feet of dust in some supply depot somewhere. Somebody should dig around. Perhaps they can be adapted to fit the Browning Bess.


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## Haggis (22 Jul 2021)

Loachman said:


> I am sure that there is a crate or two of Brown Bess bayonets languishing under several feet of dust in some supply depot somewhere. Somebody should dig around. Perhaps they can be adapted to fit the Browning Bess.


Weld a Pic rail onto the BHP, add a coat of blueing, some Pachmayr grips and 3-dot sights.  Good as new.


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## Maxman1 (23 Jul 2021)

I don't get why it "has" to be modular and have quick change calibre conversions and different barrel length and grip configurations available. We all know it's only ever going to be 9mm and one barrel length. Are they going to have all these exchange kits and barrels, slides and grips in storage in case we need them on a particular mission? Are troops being issued a pistol going to be able to request a different grip insert?

Seems like it would be easier to issue the units with a legitimate requirement for something different a different pistol that meets their needs.


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## dangerboy (23 Jul 2021)

The grips are for people with different size hands. Much like how with the older model C7s we had different butt lengths to accommodate people of different sizes with different grips you will be able to adjust your grip so as to be able to properly hold the pistol. With GBA+ (and wanting soldiers to be able to comfortably and safely use the pistol)  this is in my opinion a legitimate requirement.


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## Maxman1 (23 Jul 2021)

The S&W M&P 2.0 has replaceable palm swells that change the grip size. And 9mm, .357 SIG and .40 are the same frame so it's just a matter of changing the slide.

The option to change calibre and slide/barrel length seems like a "nice to have" feature that will never get used in practice.


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## Haggis (23 Jul 2021)

Maxman1 said:


> The option to change calibre and slide/barrel length seems like a "nice to have" feature that will never get used in practice.


If the Army ever gets serious about teaching pistol correctly and effectively to the masses, starting a newbie out on a .22 cal platform is far cheaper and more effective.  Remember the .22 cal inserts for the C1A1?


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## SeaKingTacco (23 Jul 2021)

Haggis said:


> If the Army ever gets serious about teaching pistol correctly and effectively to the masses, starting a newbie out on a .22 cal platform is far cheaper and more effective.  Remember the .22 cal inserts for the C1A1?


That would actually be a game changer, if we started teaching pistolery that way.


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## dapaterson (23 Jul 2021)

What is this "teaching" of which you speak?  Cpl Noreau in the back of a MLVW delivering his four minute conversion training from the C1 to the C7?  Experiential learning on the BHP on the range?  Almost enough ammo to qualify, but not do any of the familiarization and practices?


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## Haggis (23 Jul 2021)

dapaterson said:


> What is this "teaching" of which you speak?  Cpl Noreau in the back of a MLVW delivering his four minute conversion training from the C1 to the C7?  Experiential learning on the BHP on the range?  Almost enough ammo to qualify, but not do any of the familiarization and practices?


Yup, we served in the same Army.


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## NavyShooter (23 Jul 2021)

You mean one of these:





The C-7 Family of Weapons was conceived with a C-10 rifle as well - a .22 caliber version of the C-7.  It was to be both a trainer, and a replacement for the Cadet rifle C No7 and the .22 conversion for the FN C1.

The problem was, that at about the same time as the C-7 FOW was being brought online, there was some concerns identified about the indoor ranges in the CAF's facilities.  

Studies were done, and basically every one of those ranges was condemned in fairly short order.  Cadets were switching to air rifles, and the planned C-10 was dropped.  I am aware that there were possibly as few as 5 of them built based on discussions I had years ago with someone who worked at Colt Canada and had access to their reference collection.


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## Colin Parkinson (23 Jul 2021)

I have a sub-cal set for an AR, used it in my Nork (Eff you JT) and it's great for doing CQB and drills with. Accuracy sucks after 30m as it uses the standard barrel. But it's a great tool and easy to use.


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## Fishbone Jones (23 Jul 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> I have a sub-cal set for an AR, used it in my Nork (Eff you JT) and it's great for doing CQB and drills with. Accuracy sucks after 30m as it uses the standard barrel. But it's a great tool and easy to use.


I have a couple of different ones for the AR platform. I also have a sub kit for my .45 Commander. They all work flawlessly. Glock, Sig & Beretta all have .22 sub kits an full sized pistols in .22. For the government, 20 of these per unit, would not be a big deal and what is does costs them will be saved in ammo costs.


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## Haggis (23 Jul 2021)

Fishbone Jones said:


> I have a couple of different ones for the AR platform. I also have a sub kit for my .45 Commander. They all work flawlessly. Glock, Sig & Beretta all have .22 sub kits an full sized pistols in .22. For the government, 20 of these per unit, would not be a big deal and what is does costs them will be saved in ammo costs.


Totally agree.  I teach at my local gun club and always start newbies out on .22 cal.  There's a reason why SATS is such an effective training tool (if properly used). Subcal is an extension of that philosophy.


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## Colin Parkinson (24 Jul 2021)

I have DAR-22 (Dlask built 10/22 with a VQ trigger group, scope and bipod. It will shoot accuratly out to 200m, the trigger is beautiful, the heavy barrel is supported by the bipod and the hogue stock allows a firm grip. Newbies love shooting it as they getting the reward of hitting something with no recoil or strain, great for kids and the bipod reduces the chance the barrel will be pointed the wrong way. I also have several .22 pistols and pistol adaptors. Great on the ammo budget and for teaching pistol work to. I always encourage people getting into pistols to stick to 9mm and get an .22 adaptor or .22 pistol to practice with. Easier on the pocket book and extends your range time.


----------



## NavyShooter (24 Jul 2021)

I specifically built a dedicated .22 LR upper receiver for my AR.  I took a proper 1/16 twist barrel, mated it with a Ceiner .22 kit (which I found worked better than the old Colt style kits) and when I was seriously competing in service rifle, I'd shoot about 5000 rounds a year through it in the winter months as training/prep.  Got me to the top 10 a number of times, and maxed out as the runner up for the Queens' in 2008.  

Using a dedicated barrel of the proper twist, I was getting 1/2" groups standing at 20m.  Reliability with the right ammo was nearly 100%.


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## Haggis (24 Jul 2021)

Maxman1 said:


> Beretta APX, Ruger American Pistol and Steyr M9A2 all meet the specifications.


While browsing some gun sites for a another potential purchase this morning, I noticed that the Ruger American is selling in Canada (retail) for half the price of the P320 and hundreds less than the APX and Steyr M9A2.


----------



## calculus (24 Jul 2021)

A bit of topic, but I've been thinking about a conversion kit for my G17 for a while now. Anyone here on this thread have any positive experience with the *Advantage Arms* kit? Or the *Tactical Solutions*?

With regards to the replacement pistol, rumour has it that the RCMP might also be looking for a new service pistol. Any thoughts on a common pistol design between both services? The P320 has been making some inroads into law enforcement lately south of us, and also in Europe.


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## Haggis (24 Jul 2021)

calculus said:


> With regards to the replacement pistol, rumour has it that the RCMP might also be looking for a new service pistol. Any thoughts on a common pistol design between both services? The P320 has been making some inroads into law enforcement lately south of us, and also in Europe.


At least one segment of the RCMP has gone to Glocks already.  I expect this may influence their selection of a general duty pistol.


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## Colin Parkinson (24 Jul 2021)

I personally despise the trigger on the Glock, that being said the G17/G19 is a absolutely solid pistol and either the CF or RCMP won't be let down with them, if they get picked.


----------



## daftandbarmy (24 Jul 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> I personally despise the trigger on the Glock, that being said the G17/G19 is a absolutely solid pistol and either the CF or RCMP won't be let down with them, if they get picked.



I'm triggered!


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## Haggis (24 Jul 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> I personally despise the trigger on the Glock, that being said the G17/G19 is a absolutely solid pistol and either the CF or RCMP won't be let down with them, if they get picked.


Except that the tender documents disqualify the Glock. But Glock complained, so the CAF may not get a new pistol for a very long time.....
.....or they will get Glocks.


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## Maxman1 (24 Jul 2021)

Because Glock gets pissy whenever someone suggests their design might not be "perfection" (such as pulling the trigger to disassemble, having a chunky, non-adjustable grip size).


----------



## Jarnhamar (25 Jul 2021)

Haggis said:


> Except that the tender documents disqualify the Glock. But Glock complained, so the CAF may not get a new pistol for a very long time.....
> .....or they will get Glocks.



Does it look like Glock are being sore losers or did the CAF purposefully write them out of the tender?


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## Haggis (25 Jul 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Does it look like Glock are being sore losers or did the CAF purposefully write them out of the tender?


By reading the tender documents (posted far above), I'd say that the  CAF favours the P320, likely due to Sig Sauer beating out Glock in the US MHP, despite the recommendations of all the Glock owners who roam the halls of NDHQ.


----------



## Ostrozac (25 Jul 2021)

Haggis said:


> By reading the tender documents (posted far above), I'd say that the  CAF favours the P320, likely due to Sig Sauer beating out Glock in the US MHP, despite the recommendations of all the Glock owners who roam the halls of NDHQ.


I belong to a gun club in the NCR, and I don’t see all that many Glocks out in the hands of other military members and veterans. CZ (the proud new owners of Colt Canada) seems to be the most popular, followed closely by Sig. Glock seems to be firmly in the second tier of popularity, along with the likes of S&W and Beretta.

If there is a bias for Glock, it would be in the long strain of Anglophilia in our ranks — when in doubt, we often follow the lead of the British Army, who use the Glock 17, designated the L131A1, as their standard pistol.


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## Colin Parkinson (25 Jul 2021)

The CZ has taken over IPSC thanks to reliability, customizable, long service life, lower bore axis. I like the CZ, but would like one with a area around the rear sight raised to make gripping the slide easier. AR offered a Turkish clone like that for awhile.


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## Haggis (25 Jul 2021)

Ostrozac said:


> I belong to a gun club in the NCR, and I don’t see all that many Glocks out in the hands of other military members and veterans. CZ (the proud new owners of Colt Canada) seems to be the most popular, followed closely by Sig. Glock seems to be firmly in the second tier of popularity, along with the likes of S&W and Beretta.





> The CZ has taken over IPSC thanks to reliability, customizable, long service life, lower bore axis.



I shoot IPSC and IDPA alongside a few CAF members/vets who are Glock-people.  I'm seeing more P320's showing up (notably the Legion model) with and without RDOs.  But CZ's rule the roost in numbers for new shooters.


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## MilEME09 (25 Jul 2021)

Cz already has a leg up after buy colt, they are probably already retooling north American factories to make CZ products so they could potentially make them in Canada for us.


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## Eaglelord17 (26 Jul 2021)

Haggis said:


> Weld a Pic rail onto the BHP, add a coat of blueing, some Pachmayr grips and 3-dot sights.  Good as new.


To be fair, provided the pistols were in newer shape they could just do this.

It's not that the BHP is a bad pistol (most modern pistol designs are pretty much the same design reworked a bit), it is just a worn one. The quality of the pistol is a lot of why it has remained in service so long. If anyone is expecting some sort of amazing new pistol which performs significantly better than a decent condition BHP they will be disappointed. 

Realistically it doesn't matter which major pistol they pick, they all perform about the same, and with the amount of training we provide our troops, any slight difference between the pistols will be levelled off through lack of skill. Personally I favour CZ or Sig myself, just because those are the ergonomics I am used to, but there is nothing wrong with Glock either.


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## Colin Parkinson (26 Jul 2021)

Buying the pistol is the easy part, increasing the training is more important. in the 1980's pistol training was the blind leading the blind and I can shoot pistol despite my army training. I think it's better now, but not sure by how much. When I was actively practising for IPSC, it was not uncommon to go through 300 rds in a night, twice a month and another 2 days at the range with 100-150 rds. My instructor was averaging 40,000rds a year to stay competitive at the international level. Besides the .22 sub cal kits, there are quite a few laser based training systems out there that would allow units to train a lot of the basic skill sets, prior to going on the range.


----------



## dangerboy (26 Jul 2021)

Unfortunately, I can't see the pistol training changing much. I suspect that for the project the assumption would be that the soldiers would have the same amount of time and ammunition for pistol training as what is currently allocated.


----------



## Haggis (26 Jul 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Besides the .22 sub cal kits, there are quite a few laser based training systems out there that would allow units to train a lot of the basic skill sets, prior to going on the range.


We have trialled a couple of the newer LASER based training systems at work (e.g. Mantis-X) during both dry and live fire.   Basically, they don't work very well unless you have a DAO trigger as you have to break your grip to either reset the hammer or cycle the slide after every shot.  So, any hint of consistency in grip is out the window. For the other diagnostics, (trigger slap, flinching etc.) they use a simple accelerometer/software package which "guesses" which shooter error you committed based on the movement of the gun.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (26 Jul 2021)

I started using lasers on our air rifles for training Navy League Cadets, I found it helps for a very quick learning curve for the kids. Once you get the new pistols, some Lasers will help with the first time shooters.


----------



## Ostrozac (26 Jul 2021)

In my experience, the lack of training isn’t so much an accuracy issue, it’s a safety issue. We have a culture of throwing pistols and live ammo at people and expecting them to figure them out. Talk of the use of lasers and advanced training techniques is premature when we refuse to train people even on the most basic of techniques.


----------



## Haggis (26 Jul 2021)

Ostrozac said:


> In my experience, the lack of training isn’t so much an accuracy issue, it’s a safety issue. We have a culture of throwing pistols and live ammo at people and expecting them to figure them out. Talk of the use of lasers and advanced training techniques is premature when we refuse to train people even on the most basic of techniques.


We have given ourselves a false sense of competency in that very few NDs occur with the BHP.  The fact that the majority of NDs are with rifles/carbines is because the vast majority of small arms users in the CAF use rifles/carbines.

Our basic "get ready for PWT 1" pistol training is abysmally poor.  If that trend continues with a new, sexy pistol coming into the system that everyone is going to want to use then look out!


----------



## daftandbarmy (28 Jul 2021)

Haggis said:


> We have given ourselves a false sense of competency in that very few NDs occur with the BHP.  The fact that the majority of NDs are with rifles/carbines is because the vast majority of small arms users in the CAF use rifles/carbines.
> 
> Our basic "get ready for PWT 1" pistol training is abysmally poor.  If that trend continues with a new, sexy pistol coming into the system that everyone is going to want to use then look out!



One of the best pistol training/ shooting experiences I've ever had was with a local police force. 

I know a guy there who invited me out to shoot the Glock 17 and Remington 870. 

Despite never having shot the Glock before I went from novice to 'not bad' in an afternoon. I've had a fair bit of experience shooting various pistols before but the police reservists I was shooting with had little to no experience. They all did well too.

I really appreciated the fairly low key and 'experiential' approach to training the instructors used, which was clearly nothing like the 'shouty' experiences I've had before in the Army. It clearly worked well for the novice shooters, too.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (28 Jul 2021)

Doesn't  much matter which one we get. The biggest problem we have in the military with our weapons is the constant strip, assemble, IAs and stoppages and dry drills. The things are worn out before we get to the range. And keep range and operational mags locked up until you get real bullets. Most problems with the BHP are due to worn out mags and bent lips on the mags.


----------



## Haggis (28 Jul 2021)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Most problems with the BHP are due to worn out mags and bent lips on the mags.


Because we teach rifle first and pistol whenever, troops are not properly shown how to load pistol mags.  Invariably, they try to shove the rounds between the lips, like a rifle mag, which ruins the magazines. I have 6 mags for my personal FN-manufactured BHP (3 pinned originals and 3 Mec-Gar) and have never experienced any magazine related stoppages except for empty magazines.


----------



## dimsum (28 Jul 2021)

Haggis said:


> experienced any magazine related stoppages except for empty magazines


That's a feature, not a bug.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (28 Jul 2021)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Doesn't  much matter which one we get. The biggest problem we have in the military with our weapons is the constant strip, assemble, IAs and stoppages and dry drills. The things are worn out before we get to the range. And keep range and operational mags locked up until you get real bullets. Most problems with the BHP are due to worn out mags and bent lips on the mags.


When I was QM and we were out on range day, people that were having consistent problems had their mags exchanged, then those mags were marked and sent back as faulty and we ordered new ones. Not sure if you guys have any new mags left in the system? Prior to this, the faulty mags kept getting put back into the Arms Vault and they still be a problem next range weekend.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (28 Jul 2021)

Ostrozac said:


> In my experience, the lack of training isn’t so much an accuracy issue, it’s a safety issue. We have a culture of throwing pistols and live ammo at people and expecting them to figure them out. Talk of the use of lasers and advanced training techniques is premature when we refuse to train people even on the most basic of techniques.


A laser on a pistol will really help both the instructor and the student figure out what is going on. You also get immediate feedback on their aiming technique. You be very surprised at how people interpret your instructions on aiming.

I was planning on making a few of these, but the Lasers were easier. Plus they work on most modern pistols







I have this setup on  my G26, rock solid


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Jul 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> A laser on a pistol will really help both the instructor and the student figure out what is going on. You also get immediate feedback on their aiming technique. You be very surprised at how people interpret your instructions on aiming.
> 
> I was planning on making a few of these, but the Lasers were easier. Plus they work on most modern pistols
> 
> ...


Hah! I have a few Martinis in various calibers and all are shooters. Let me know when you've got a working prototype!😂


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Jul 2021)

One of the easiest aiming aids was the HB pencil bounced off the firing pin. A drill I haven't seen used in years.


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## Good2Golf (28 Jul 2021)

Will striker-fired pistols throw the pencil as far? 😉


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Jul 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> Will striker-fired pistols throw the pencil as far? 😉


No idea. I'm not a striker guy. I've got a couple, but they don't get out often. They're like porch dogs. I don't  know why it wouldn't though.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (28 Jul 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> Will striker-fired pistols throw the pencil as far? 😉


As i recall yes the striker actually has a fair bit of force to it.


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Jul 2021)

Just pulled my Canik TP9SA out to try a pencil. Works just fine. Actually seems to hit the pencil quite hard. Took me longer to find a HB pencil than it did to retrieve the gun.😁


----------



## Colin Parkinson (29 Jul 2021)

Some of you will like this site





						Aim teaching devices for military rifle shooting - historical
					

Historic Arms Resource Centre facility for British and Commonwealth Enfield and other Miniature calibre training and small-bore TARGET RIFLES  (BSA- Birmingham Small Arms Co.), conversion units and accessories with representation of other nations' training rifles, plus Postal League competitions...



					www.rifleman.org.uk


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## Haggis (29 Jul 2021)

dimsum said:


> That's a feature, not a bug.


It happens with alarming regularity.


----------



## KevinB (12 Oct 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> A laser on a pistol will really help both the instructor and the student figure out what is going on. You also get immediate feedback on their aiming technique. You be very surprised at how people interpret your instructions on aiming.
> 
> I was planning on making a few of these, but the Lasers were easier. Plus they work on most modern pistols
> 
> ...


Dots are better, and passive - and do better with obscuring issues like smoke etc.

Most entities who have transitioned to dots have seen massive improvements in the shooting quality of new shooters.

Also FWIW having seen the results both ways - I think teaching students pistols first is a way better method than rifles first (I know that's tough for Armies to fathom).
    Pistol are tougher to shooter well - due to the short barrel, and significant rigger pull to weight differences in the platform over rifles.
  A good pistol shooter will become a fantastic rifle shooter when they start - while a great rifleman almost always has issues with pistols at the start.

Plus it is MUCH better to ingrain proper safety and handling with a small platform - as the length of carbines and rifles tends to mask true safety issues.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (12 Oct 2021)

Apparently the leadership of the Navy League gets a bit squeamish at the thought of us teaching them pistol craft, combat shooting techniques and have non-square ranges. Having done Laser tag with the Cadets, they have already learned the basics in their video games and can be quite competent with a laser pistol, crafty bastards gang up on the officers.


----------



## markppcli (16 Nov 2021)

__





						Canadian International Trade Tribunal Finds in Favor of Rampart International in Canada Military Handgun Procurement Dispute - Soldier Systems Daily
					





					soldiersystems.net


----------



## Fishbone Jones (16 Nov 2021)

markppcli said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Comment:

Otter says:
November 16, 2021 at 16:56
It should read, “One of the issues that has caused a hold up with the program is that there are not suitable Quebec produced pistols."

That's probably more true than not.


----------



## MilEME09 (16 Nov 2021)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Comment:
> 
> Otter says:
> November 16, 2021 at 16:56
> ...


Made in Canada has become our hill to die on, as no matter the cost it seems to have to happen which is why this failed once already because no company is going to hand over IP to colt canada. Now that they are owned by CZ does that mean they win? my bet would be yes but that remains to be seen if it will hold true.


----------



## markppcli (17 Nov 2021)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Comment:
> 
> Otter says:
> November 16, 2021 at 16:56
> ...


It really comes down to made in Canada, as much as people love to shit on le Belle Province, most of our really awful kit isn’t made there. The rain jacket is from Peerless in Winnipeg for example.


----------



## PuckChaser (17 Nov 2021)

All of our clothing is Peerless Garments. They're the only facility in Canada that can make items in the quantities the CAF requires. Good racket though, make junk that falls apart so the CAF has to keep buying replacements from you.


----------



## KevinB (17 Nov 2021)

Given Canada's small market - none outside of Canada want to give their IP to Canada - so you end up with garbage in - garbage out.

Given the Right of First Refusal of Colt Canada due to the MSP - that pretty much skewered the Pistol until CZ bought Colt.

IF Canada actually thought - they would have bought DIemaco when Devtek-Heroux spun it off - and not let Colt buy it.
    It would have brought back a National Small Arms Capability - and international firms wouldn't have had such a reaction.

Since CZ's pistol didn't make downselect for the US Army (albeit Joint) Modular Handgun System (MHS) program, one doesn't really know how well it would do - but then again the Army chose the Sig 320 - which fell apart in FBI and USSS testing well inside the 35k round requirement of MHS (the US Army decided to shoot 5k round and "extrapolate wear data" - both of whom opted for Glock like US SOCOM...

Now if you are like me - you wonder how one can extrapolate wear data - as to do that - you need to have a baseline of the system.
  Which is the reason most entities shoot 3-6 guns to end of life - to understand what breaks and when - so you can project out your maintenance  requirements.


----------



## Jarnhamar (17 Nov 2021)

> as much as people love to shit on le Belle Province, most of our really awful kit isn’t made there.



_L.P Royer boots has entered the chat_


----------



## dimsum (17 Nov 2021)

PuckChaser said:


> All of our clothing is Peerless Garments. They're the only facility in Canada that can make items in the quantities the CAF requires.


Appropriate company name, really.

I thought that our operational kit was from Peerless, and our DEU kit was from Logistik?  Or is L just the distributor?  

Anyway, I find there are ebbs and flows in the quality of operational clothing.


----------



## Good2Golf (17 Nov 2021)

Peerless also made/makes tents, so it’s kind of fitting…that it supplies garments to the CAF…


----------



## QV (17 Nov 2021)

Replacing the Browning HP with a suitable modern combat pistol could literally be the easiest lifecycle activity this military has ever had to do. The fact this hasn't happened yet and why it's apparently so hard to do epitomizes everything that is wrong with the CAF/DND/PSPC/GoC and the people involved in this.


----------



## dangerboy (17 Nov 2021)

dimsum said:


> Appropriate company name, really.
> 
> I thought that our operational kit was from Peerless, and our DEU kit was from Logistik?  Or is L just the distributor?
> 
> Anyway, I find there are ebbs and flows in the quality of operational clothing.


Logistik also supplies some of our operational kit. They recently were awarded the contract for the new General Purpose Sleeping Bag System, now if they make it or if it is sub-contracted out is hard to say.

General Purpose Sleeping Bag System (W8486-195105/001/PR) - Buyandsell.gc.ca


----------



## OldSolduer (17 Nov 2021)

No pistol buy yet? Six weeks til the New Year and it does not look promising....


----------



## Jarnhamar (17 Nov 2021)

dangerboy said:


> Logistik also supplies some of our operational kit. They recently were awarded the contract for the new General Purpose Sleeping Bag System, now if they make it or if it is sub-contracted out is hard to say.
> 
> General Purpose Sleeping Bag System (W8486-195105/001/PR) - Buyandsell.gc.ca


Will that be similar to say Snugpaks special forces sleeping bag system?


----------



## dimsum (17 Nov 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> No pistol buy yet? Six weeks til the New Year and it does not look promising....


You may have missed this from earlier in the week.



markppcli said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Ostrozac (17 Nov 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> No pistol buy yet? Six weeks til the New Year and it does not look promising....


To sum things up, the Department tried to do an illegal sole-source buy of the Sig P320, got called out for it by the distributor for Glock and CZ, and now DND has to go completely back to the drawing board in addition to paying all legal costs for the challenge.

Do I have that about right?


----------



## PuckChaser (17 Nov 2021)

Heaven forbid we actually chose what handgun features we want for operational reasons instead of industry telling us what we want because that's what they sell.


----------



## Ostrozac (17 Nov 2021)

PuckChaser said:


> Heaven forbid we actually chose what handgun features we want for operational reasons instead of industry telling us what we want because that's what they sell.


Heaven doesn’t forbid it. The _Canadian International Trade Tribunal Act _does. DND had three options:

1. Obey the law.
2. Convince Parliament that the law needs to be amended for operational reasons.
3. Break the law and hope no one notices.

Our preferred option has been number 3, which doesn’t seem to be working.


----------



## PuckChaser (17 Nov 2021)

Notice DND isn't named, it's up to PWGSC to make sure these solicitations are compliant with the law. They're the experts. I hope the only thing Rampart gets out of this is legal fees, with CZ buying Colt Canada, they don't have a hope in hell of winning now.


----------



## CBH99 (18 Nov 2021)

Ostrozac said:


> To sum things up, the Department tried to do an illegal sole-source buy of the Sig P320, got called out for it by the distributor for Glock and CZ, and now DND has to go completely back to the drawing board in addition to paying all legal costs for the challenge.
> 
> Do I have that about right?


Genuine question - but why would DND have to go back to the drawing board, even if the sole-source was rejected.  

The pricing, quantities, spare parts, etc is already determined.  Now, instead of DND just buying what they want, they have to put it up for competition - and they’ll get whatever pistol PWGSC decides.  

A delay?  Absolutely.  Frustrating that we can’t just buy what we want, or what makes sense?  For sure.  


_Hopefully_ they don’t have to start from scratch though 😕🙏🏻


----------



## markppcli (18 Nov 2021)

From scratch, as they’ll have to rewrite their requirements and relaunch the competition.


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## KevinB (18 Nov 2021)

markppcli said:


> From scratch, as they’ll have to rewrite their requirements and relaunch the competition.



It is nearly impossible to write a Sole Source JNA for a pistol in this day and age outside of small entities that have Non Disclosure Contracts.
   Those same entities down here use Best Performer criteria for contract awards - so they don't need JNA's 
 Sometimes other entities try to buy the same item and attempt to sneak a contract thru via a SS JNA.

I personally wouldn't issue the Sig M17/M18 to anyone - but I've also been able to see the test results from two entities that tested them to destruction and the issues they had well insight the manufacturers stated life cycle.

IMHO years ago the CF should have dropped the TDP aspect and probably would have gotten a Glock 19 variant.

Now with CZ owning Colt - you will get a CZ pistol IF CZ changes it's MO on how they work with Colt.


----------



## Czech_pivo (18 Nov 2021)

Just go to the Toronto Police Force and ask them to put out a contract to the CF's preferred manufacturer and then sell the pistols back to the CF as surplus goods and be done with it.  I'm sure that the size of the order to arm the Toronto Police would be in comparable size to what we need to buy.


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## Haggis (18 Nov 2021)

Ostrozac said:


> To sum things up, the Department tried to do an illegal sole-source buy of the Sig P320, got called out for it by the distributor for Glock and CZ, and now DND has to go completely back to the drawing board in addition to paying all legal costs for the challenge.
> 
> Do I have that about right?


It wasn't really a sole source.  There were a few other pistols which could've fit the bill (someone else listed them in a previous post).

Notwithstanding the CITT decision, the project NPP is still open on buyandsell.gc.ca.


----------



## KevinB (18 Nov 2021)

LOL - Not the Frame OR Pistol trigger group - it was a really interesting way to try to sole source the Sig 320 as it uses a trigger box - and the frames (historically the Firearm portion of the pistol) have a window to view the S/N


_Question 66:
#3.5.2 The C22 FF pistol trigger group must be permanently stamped or engraved with a unique serial number~“ & #3.5.3 The C22 FF pistol trigger group serial number must be visible when the C22 FF pistol fully assembled.

It is impossible to be permanently stamper or engraved serial number on the trigger group due to very narrow space. And because of the narrow space, it’s impossible to show the serial number when the C22 FF pistol fully assembled. So we’d like to ask you whether this clause can be deleted or not.

Answer 66:
No your offering must meet requirements 3.5.2 and 3.5.3 to be considered compliant._


I would have chosen a different route to argue their point, and used the CCC Requirements for Frame Marking of a Firearm.





						Firearms Marking Regulations
					

Federal laws of Canada




					laws-lois.justice.gc.ca


----------



## Dale Denton (18 Nov 2021)

Judging from their website, Colt Canada doesn't manufacture pistols in Canada, so would CZ just have to fly CZ or Colt pistol machinery over or build a copy here. Either way, I can't imagine much of a difference in cost.


----------



## KevinB (18 Nov 2021)

LoboCanada said:


> Judging from their website, Colt Canada doesn't manufacture pistols in Canada, so would CZ just have to fly CZ or Colt pistol machinery over or build a copy here. Either way, I can't imagine much of a difference in cost.


With the C7/C8/C9 Diemaco was starting to produce in Canada, and Colt and FN where providing some parts from home, until Diemaco was 100% up and running with made in Canada items.

 The difference then, was Diemaco was given the job of manufacturing what the CF had selected and that was contracted via PWGSC.
    Then Colt and FN provided the TDP to the CF/Cdn Gov for manufacture -but Diemaco had no rights to sell outside of Canada.
  That changed and Colt had Diemaco do European Sales when it was at Max Cap down here with M4's - and then Colt bought Diemaco.

The fact is that Colt Canada/CZ would still need to provide a complaint item, or be given first right of refusal to produce one.
   Since they do not produce any pistols in Canada now, one can assume Colt had no interest in the CF Pistol - and if CZ will or won't remains to be seen.

 Admittedly I am more surprised that no one attacked the SOW for really just being a fairly poor attempt at a Sole Source - as there is only one complaint item with all the "requirements" - and one can't really defend a lot of the "needs" than someone wanted the 320 over Glock, FN, CZ, etc.


----------



## Haggis (18 Nov 2021)

KevinB said:


> I would have chosen a different route to argue their point, and used the CCC Requirements for Frame Marking of a Firearm.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The regulation that has been repeatedly had it's CIF date pushed to the right?


LoboCanada said:


> Judging from their website, Colt Canada doesn't manufacture pistols in Canada, so would CZ just have to fly CZ or Colt pistol machinery over or build a copy here.


Not yet, they don't.


LoboCanada said:


> Either way, I can't imagine much of a difference in cost.


Cost matters little to this Government if it results in more votes..


----------



## KevinB (18 Nov 2021)

Haggis said:


> The regulation that has been repeatedly had it's CIF date pushed to the right?


The marking law changes would help Sig - currently they NEED to be frame marked - and the CF SOW requirement is in direct violation of the CCC.  The changes allow for them to be marked in the manner the Manufacture thinks is best - and visible - so it would allow for the tigger box type systems to be "the firearm" and marked as so.

Right now I do not see how any Sig 320's are legally marked by letter of the law in Canada.

 While it doesn't stop the CF from doing that or having guns marked that way for issue -- it doesn't allow for submission samples not owned by the CF etc.



Haggis said:


> Cost matters little to this Government if it results in more votes..


Very true


----------



## SeaKingTacco (18 Nov 2021)

KevinB said:


> The marking law changes would help Sig - currently they NEED to be frame marked - and the CF SOW requirement is in direct violation of the CCC.  The changes allow for them to be marked in the manner the Manufacture thinks is best - and visible - so it would allow for the tigger box type systems to be "the firearm" and marked as so.
> 
> Right now I do not see how any Sig 320's are legally marked by letter of the law in Canada.
> 
> ...


I thought the CAF was explicitly exempted from CCC firearms regulations?


----------



## Colin Parkinson (18 Nov 2021)

It would have been cheaper to buy 20,000 each of 2 types of pistols as a interim measure and just issue one set of them.


----------



## KevinB (18 Nov 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> I thought the CAF was explicitly exempted from CCC firearms regulations?


They are - but in this instance only guns bought by the CF would have the exemption - so the distributor couldn't hold stock themselves...

At least in how I read the current guidelines on the Marking provisions - I would guess that Sig got some sort of allowance for the 320 - seeing as how I strongly doubt JTF-2 bought them solely out of a brochure (although the Mk43 and Mk14 buys in the early days lend a possibility to that...)


----------



## KevinB (8 Dec 2021)

So given the various boondoggles before - and now a new pistol isn't even on the slide deck for weapons programs - how would folks like to celebrate the Inglis No2 Mk1*'s second century of service?


----------



## CBH99 (8 Dec 2021)

KevinB said:


> So given the various boondoggles before - and now a new pistol isn't even on the slide deck for weapons programs - how would folks like to celebrate the Inglis No2 Mk1*'s second century of service?


Sometimes I wish I could Like, Laugh, and Sad a comment all at the same time 😅😔🤦🏼‍♂️


----------



## dimsum (8 Dec 2021)

KevinB said:


> So given the various boondoggles before - and now a new pistol isn't even on the slide deck for weapons programs - how would folks like to celebrate the Inglis No2 Mk1*'s second century of service?


I mentioned it in the SOCEM thread, but isn't it the C22 Full Frame Pistol in the middle of the slide?


----------



## dangerboy (8 Dec 2021)

It is listed under medium term (1-3 years). Of course, I think that this slide was produced before the CITT ruling, so the timeline might be off now.


----------



## KevinB (8 Dec 2021)

dimsum said:


> I mentioned it in the SOCEM thread, but isn't it the C22 Full Frame Pistol in the middle of the slide?


Clearly I am blind.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (8 Dec 2021)

KevinB said:


> So given the various boondoggles before - and now a new pistol isn't even on the slide deck for weapons programs - how would folks like to celebrate the Inglis No2 Mk1*'s second century of service?


It will work with the RCAF Heritage flight rollout


----------



## daftandbarmy (8 Dec 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> It will work with the RCAF Heritage flight rollout



Interesting you should mention that.

Coincidentally, the Ozzies use the Browning Hi Power...


----------



## dimsum (8 Dec 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Interesting you should mention that.
> 
> Coincidentally, the Ozzies use the Browning Hi Power...


And the M113 APC.


----------



## KevinB (8 Dec 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Interesting you should mention that.
> 
> Coincidentally, the Ozzies use the Browning Hi Power...
> 
> View attachment 67567


As a Trophy?

I had thought they had switched - but then I realized that I don't think I've ever associated with non SOF Aussies - and that was probably why I assumed they had ventured past their WWII vintage handgun - maybe the CF can trade them some for more Hornets


----------



## brihard (8 Dec 2021)

Slightly relevant, but in the world of pistol acquisitions in Canada, several police services have recently acquired new handguns with attached flashlights and a red dot optic. Vancouver Police picked up the P320 with a Sig red dot and Streamlight attached. RCMP may finally be getting word in the near future on a replacement as well.


----------



## KevinB (8 Dec 2021)

brihard said:


> Slightly relevant, but in the world of pistol acquisitions in Canada, several police services have recently acquired new handguns with attached flashlights and a red dot optic. Vancouver Police picked up the P320 with a Sig red dot and Streamlight attached. RCMP may finally be getting word in the near future on a replacement as well.


While no fan of the 320 - MRDS are a fantastic addition.
 1) Most entities transitioning to them have noted Significant improvements in new recruit pistol scores
 2) Entities who have transitioned to them have seen dramatic hit increases on actual engagements.


----------



## markppcli (13 Dec 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Interesting you should mention that.
> 
> Coincidentally, the Ozzies use the Browning Hi Power...
> 
> View attachment 67567


To be replaced in 2022, given that is Australia I suspect they’ll actually manage to get that done and choose an effective option. At this point I’m in favour of just giving everyone two years of boot allowances to buy a hand gun at Cabellas.


----------



## dimsum (13 Dec 2021)

markppcli said:


> given that is Australia I suspect they’ll actually manage to get that done and choose an effective option


I'm not as optimistic about their procurement process as you are.  

See:  Subs, MRH-90 Taipan helicopters.


----------



## Good2Golf (13 Dec 2021)

dimsum said:


> I'm not as optimistic about their procurement process as you are.
> 
> See:  Subs, MRH-90 Taipan helicopters.


Unless we see a deal with NEXTER, I think they’ll be okay…


----------



## OldSolduer (13 Dec 2021)

How's that pistol buy going? You have 18 days left....


----------



## dimsum (13 Dec 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> How's that pistol buy going? You have 18 days left....


I'd start teaching new recruits how to use this...


----------



## Jarnhamar (13 Dec 2021)

KevinB said:


> While no fan of the 320 - MRDS are a fantastic addition.
> 1) Most entities transitioning to them have noted Significant improvements in new recruit pistol scores
> 2) Entities who have transitioned to them have seen dramatic hit increases on actual engagements.


Is that mostly over Glocks?


----------



## KevinB (13 Dec 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Is that mostly over Glocks?


Glock and Sig being the most notable -- but there are a few others out there.


----------



## dapaterson (13 Dec 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> How's that pistol buy going? You have 18 days left....


Clearly, the CAF must be on Santa's naughty list.


----------



## GR66 (13 Dec 2021)

dapaterson said:


> Clearly, the CAF must be on Santa's naughty list.


Have you read the news lately???


----------



## Colin Parkinson (13 Dec 2021)

KevinB said:


> Glock and Sig being the most notable -- but there are a few others out there.


Do an interim buy of 15,000 of each with holsters, mags, cleaning kits and a number of armourer kits for "field trials", we expect to have an answer in 15 years....


----------



## markppcli (13 Dec 2021)

dimsum said:


> I'm not as optimistic about their procurement process as you are.
> 
> See:  Subs, MRH-90 Taipan helicopters.


I actually see the recent Taipan decision as very positive. The ability to recognize a failed project, and pivot to correct it is unheard of here. Imagine if the Canadian Army had to balls to say “actually this TAPV is a lemon, we’re going to buy X as a replacement.”


----------



## MilEME09 (13 Dec 2021)

markppcli said:


> I actually see the recent Taipan decision as very positive. The ability to recognize a failed project, and pivot to correct it is unheard of here. Imagine if the Canadian Army had to balls to say “actually this TAPV is a lemon, we’re going to buy X as a replacement.”


Or the msvs milcot? Boots? We need to call out manufacturers when we get lemons and say while it met the requirements, the execution gave us equipment that did not meet our needs.


----------



## Good2Golf (13 Dec 2021)

MilEME09 said:


> Or the msvs milcot? Boots? We need to call out manufacturers when we get lemons and say while it met the requirements, the execution gave us equipment that did not meet our needs.


Make people in Treasury Board and Public Works wear the boots for a year, to appreciate why their policies aren’t always the best for the troops…


----------



## MilEME09 (13 Dec 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> Make people in Treasury Board and Public Works wear the boots for a year, to appreciate why their policies aren’t always the best for the troops…


Make them buy a off road truck that has its warranty voided if used off road and tell them they have to take it back country camping


----------



## OldSolduer (14 Dec 2021)

dapaterson said:


> Clearly, the CAF must be on Santa's naughty list.


Oh yes I watched the apology today.


----------



## Dana381 (10 Jan 2022)

LINK REMOVED AS PER SITE GUIDELINES

We can build an ammo factory in Ukraine, send them sniper rifles, body armour, and first aid kits but we still can't get our own soldiers F@#$%^G new pistols  Sad, Very, very, very sad


----------



## dimsum (10 Jan 2022)

Dana381 said:


> LINK REMOVED
> 
> We can build an ammo factory in Ukraine, send them sniper rifles, body armour, and first aid kits but we still can't get our own soldiers F@#$%^G new pistols  Sad, Very, very, very sad


From the article, it's more like the govt is facilitating Canadian industry to build said ammo factory.  It's not really the same as procuring stuff for ourselves.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (10 Jan 2022)

From a Ukrainian source









						Investors from Canada plan to set up ammunition factory in Ukraine
					

State Concern Ukroboronprom and investors from Canada have started cooperation on the establishment of an ammunition factory in Ukraine and are already working on pre-project documentation for the enterprise. — Ukrinform.




					www.ukrinform.net


----------



## suffolkowner (10 Jan 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Make them buy a off road truck that has its warranty voided if used off road and tell them they have to take it back country camping


This is the MSVS-Navistar? How is that possible? The trucks are taken off road for commercial vocational use all the time without any warranty issues.


----------



## dapaterson (10 Jan 2022)

One of many pieces of urban myth perpetuated.  They are long out of warranty now; maintenance is contracted to local dealers, and paid out of the National Procurement budget.


----------



## FJAG (10 Jan 2022)

I guess seeing that it's now Jan 2022 the answer to the question posed in this thread is: No!

🍻


----------



## MilEME09 (10 Jan 2022)

FJAG said:


> I guess seeing that it's now Jan 2022 the answer to the question posed in this thread is: No!
> 
> 🍻


Thread never stated which era/ calendar


----------



## Haggis (10 Jan 2022)

FJAG said:


> I guess seeing that it's now Jan 2022 the answer to the question posed in this thread is: No!
> 
> 🍻


Don't make me start a new thread  I'll do it....don't mess with me! 😠


----------



## OldSolduer (10 Jan 2022)

May as well say 2023. It’s already too late for 2022


----------



## Maxman1 (11 Jan 2022)

suffolkowner said:


> This is the MSVS-Navistar? How is that possible? The trucks are taken off road for commercial vocational use all the time without any warranty issues.



I figured it was referring to the Navistar's replacement, the Mack Kerak.


----------



## Bluebulldog (11 Jan 2022)

Springfield Armoury is now manufacturing the Hi-Power as Mod SA-35. 

I wonder if that might be a consideration / wrinkle....?


----------



## KevinB (11 Jan 2022)

Bluebulldog said:


> Springfield Armoury is now manufacturing the Hi-Power as Mod SA-35.
> 
> I wonder if that might be a consideration / wrinkle....?


No.

No Army is going to buy a metal frame single action gun these days, it is cost prohibitive.
 Not to mention not the ideal choice in terms, of weight, function, safety etc.


----------



## Bluebulldog (11 Jan 2022)

KevinB said:


> No.
> 
> No Army is going to buy a metal frame single action gun these days, it is cost prohibitive.
> Not to mention not the ideal choice in terms, of weight, function, safety etc.



Thinking less of a procurement, than parts are being manufactured in NA again.


----------



## KevinB (11 Jan 2022)

Bluebulldog said:


> Thinking less of a procurement, than parts are being manufactured in NA again.


Parts really aren't the issue.
   The issue is the No2 Mk1* isn't a viable service pistol anymore.

The safety is terrible.   I'm a BHP fan, but the issue safety is small and hard to remove easily with gloves (Nomex tight fitting)
The Mag Safety leads to a number of problems - but the CAF wouldn't authorize the plunger to be removed for that (all my BHP's have that done)
No Light Rail -- for many many reasons, you want a light on a pistol - as a lot of the time you are using the pistol it is in a dark confined space.
Sights - the iron sights on the No2 Mk1* are awful - I know at one point in time there was an effort to have slides milled for a modern dovetail sight - so a front tritium dot could be used at minimum.
Magazines - while 13rds was revolutionary at the time - it isn't now, and construction and materials of them are generally pretty poorly designed in terms of todays.


----------



## Bluebulldog (11 Jan 2022)

KevinB said:


> Parts really aren't the issue.
> The issue is the No2 Mk1* isn't a viable service pistol anymore.



Makes sense. My understanding was the procurement was more about there not being a viable source of parts to keep the current stock functioning. It would seem under that logic that a manufacturer who is now producing new BHPs may alleviate that issue. 

I'm a fan of the 226, and 320. Would love to see something happen that end. 

Cheers.


----------



## MilEME09 (11 Jan 2022)

KevinB said:


> Parts really aren't the issue.
> The issue is the No2 Mk1* isn't a viable service pistol anymore.
> 
> The safety is terrible.   I'm a BHP fan, but the issue safety is small and hard to remove easily with gloves (Nomex tight fitting)
> ...



The amount of redesign work required to bypass the magazine safety already makes it not Worth it. You would have to redesign the frame so the triping leaver stays in the raised position. Redesign the drills, etc, the CAF may waste money from time to time but finding a firm to do a mop on a 70 year old pistol would waste resources.

Parts wise, barrels, firing pins, and a few other parts are our issue. Can't recall what part off the top of my head, think it might be the sear, we have none left. If yours is done, send the pistol to depot and order a new pistol from war stocks. Parts could atleast band aid us till this procurement gets sorted out.


----------



## Bluebulldog (11 Jan 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Parts wise, barrels, firing pins, and a few other parts are our issue. Can't recall what part off the top of my head, think it might be the sear, we have none left. If yours is done, send the pistol to depot and order a new pistol from war stocks. Parts could atleast band aid us till this procurement gets sorted out



That was my understanding as well. 

No one is saying a new service pistol isn't due. Seems that is the SIG 226 and 320 are already being issued in limited use, that a larger buy should be easier...

But then again, PSPC.....


----------



## Haggis (11 Jan 2022)

KevinB said:


> Parts really aren't the issue.
> The issue is the No2 Mk1* isn't a viable service pistol anymore.
> 
> The safety is terrible.   I'm a BHP fan, but the issue safety is small and hard to remove easily with gloves (Nomex tight fitting)


The Brits had an ambidextrous oversized safety on theirs.


KevinB said:


> The Mag Safety leads to a number of problems - but the CAF wouldn't authorize the plunger to be removed for that (all my BHP's have that done)


The CAF's PROVE drills for the BHP are designed almost to encourage an ND, IMO.


KevinB said:


> No Light Rail -- for many many reasons, you want a light on a pistol - as a lot of the time you are using the pistol it is in a dark confined space.


A deep dive into pistol use by the mainstream CAF (not CANSOF, MTOG, MP or CP) would likely show that a lot of time you're only using the pistol on a range or in an office.   In order to use a pistol in low light the training would have to change dramatically.  We can't even allow members to draw and fire from a holster during PWT 1, 2 or 3 yet!


KevinB said:


> Sights - the iron sights on the No2 Mk1* are awful - I know at one point in time there was an effort to have slides milled for a modern dovetail sight - so a front tritium dot could be used at minimum.


Decent pistol training is a cheaper solution IMO.


KevinB said:


> Magazines - while 13rds was revolutionary at the time - it isn't now, and construction and materials of them are generally pretty poorly designed in terms of todays.


No Canadian should ever carry more than ten rounds in a pistol magazine.  Ever.  Anywhere.


----------



## Haggis (11 Jan 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Make people in Treasury Board and Public Works wear the boots for a year, to appreciate why their policies aren’t always the best for the troops…


How would having boots for office/social wear help determine what's best for the field force?  Clearly, you've forgotten all about Garrison Dress.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (11 Jan 2022)

Haggis said:


> The Brits had an ambidextrous oversized safety on theirs.
> 
> The CAF's PROVE drills for the BHP are designed almost to encourage an ND, IMO.
> 
> ...


Try eight rounds…


----------



## Bluebulldog (11 Jan 2022)

Haggis said:


> No Canadian should ever carry more than ten rounds in a pistol magazine. Ever. Anywhere.


The new BHPs (SA-35s) have 15....

I guess we could do the same as civvy side and pin them


----------



## dimsum (11 Jan 2022)

Haggis said:


> How would having boots for office/social wear help determine what's best for the field force?  Clearly, you've forgotten all about Garrison Dress.


G2G's suggestion would have helped end the fiasco that is the RCAF Temperate Boot before it started.  

Most RCAF members don't need a heavy steel-toed boot, and no one needs one that feels like it's designed to blood-let you through your heels.

But I digress.


----------



## brihard (11 Jan 2022)

There should be significant forward movement on the RCMP pistol acquisition this year. Similar issues- federal procurement, GBA+ requirements, desire to move to ‘same pistol for everybody’ (right now they have at least 4)… I see no reason the characteristics of the firearms being sought shouldn’t be pretty similar. Maybe twitch the exception that CAF will insist on an external manual safety. Still, should be interesting to see if the one procurement informs or assists the other.


----------



## dimsum (11 Jan 2022)

brihard said:


> desire to move to ‘same pistol for everybody’ (right now they have at least 4)


Why would the RCMP have 4 different types of pistols?!


----------



## brihard (11 Jan 2022)

dimsum said:


> Why would the RCMP have 4 different types of pistols?!


General duty (S&W 5946), general duty with tiny hands (S&W 3953- single stack mag), Emergency Response Team (Sig P226 with a light) and a compact for some whose role necessitates it. The last one may not be affected. The first three could all be consolidated with a modular and railed frame.


----------



## Haggis (11 Jan 2022)

brihard said:


> There should be significant forward movement on the RCMP pistol acquisition this year. Similar issues- federal procurement, GBA+ requirements, desire to move to ‘same pistol for everybody’ (right now they have at least 4)…


Hopefully they learned lessons from the CAF's last attempt at purchasing a new pistol.


----------



## Good2Golf (11 Jan 2022)

Haggis said:


> How would having boots for office/social wear help determine what's best for the field force?  Clearly, you've forgotten all about Garrison Dress.


Oh, I remember it well…especially the boots!




…especially from 1:18 on…



dimsum said:


> G2G's suggestion would have helped end the fiasco that is the RCAF Temperate Boot before it started.
> 
> Most RCAF members don't need a heavy steel-toed boot, and no one needs one that feels like it's designed to blood-let you through your heels.
> 
> But I digress.


Dimsum, Haggis was subtly and indirectly hinting as quite possibly the worst boot in CAF existence… 😉


----------



## Haggis (11 Jan 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Dimsum, Haggis was subtly and indirectly hinting as quite possibly the worst boot in CAF existence… 😉


....so far.


----------



## KevinB (11 Jan 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> The amount of redesign work required to bypass the magazine safety already makes it not Worth it. You would have to redesign the frame so the triping leaver stays in the raised position. Redesign the drills, etc, the CAF may waste money from time to time but finding a firm to do a mop on a 70 year old pistol would waste resources.
> 
> Parts wise, barrels, firing pins, and a few other parts are our issue. Can't recall what part off the top of my head, think it might be the sear, we have none left. If yours is done, send the pistol to depot and order a new pistol from war stocks. Parts could atleast band aid us till this procurement gets sorted out.


You can punch the plunger - and remove the Mag Safety - it takes an Armorer who knows the BHP about 2 min.
  It does then leave a longer take up on the trigger - - solution that units who did that came up with was to weld up but on the sear/trigger bar - and that made the trigger actually nice - not a mushy POS.

I showed some CF Gun Plumbers how to do that in the 90's - and a mat tech or two may have done some welding 
  But I agree at this point in time - there is zero need to do anything to that pistol.

Last number I heard on War Stock was still more than the number of No2 Mk1* currently issued.   
  So instead of buying spares - they should scrap the N/S guns and pull them out of stock -- most still have the British/Chense/Candian Decal on the front strap -- sadly it peels and cracks as soon as one starts to clean the preservative off it.   We drew 40 some odd of them in the early 90's and they where cherry mint all with the decal - for about 5 min 

My personal option is the CAF should get the Glock 19 and call it a day.
 I don't think the Sig P226/P239 etc are a good choice - as the DA/SA transition - and the decocker takes some time to get used too.  Also I am less enamored with the Sig 320 - which while the trigger box design makes modularity easy from a S/N aspect - the lifespan of the gun is somewhat less than one would probably like for a duty gun.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (11 Jan 2022)

We could sell the unissued BHP's in the US market and pay for about 2/3rds the cost to replace them. they are collectors pieces. Same with the RCMP marked 5946's.


----------



## dimsum (11 Jan 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> We could sell the unissued BHP's in the US market and pay for about 2/3rds the cost to replace them. they are collectors pieces. Same with the RCMP marked 5946's.


----------



## KevinB (11 Jan 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> We could sell the unissued BHP's in the US market and pay for about 2/3rds the cost to replace them. they are collectors pieces. Same with the RCMP marked 5946's.


You could sell unissued BHP's down here for 2-3x the cost of a new pistol.
  The .gov price on a G19 with night sights and 5 mags is pretty low...
While a BHP down here is a $700+ gun - and ANIB with Decal over 2k.

   Same with the RCMP marked Smith's.


----------



## brihard (11 Jan 2022)

No way the feds will allow police marked firearms to go out for resale. That’s an optics disaster as soon as one is used in a murder. Domestically, of course, the RCMP 5946s are also prohibited. Could be interesting if they at least allowed the option of irreversible conversion to display pieces.


----------



## KevinB (11 Jan 2022)

brihard said:


> No way the feds will allow police marked firearms to go out for resale. That’s an optics disaster as soon as one is used in a murder.


LE does it down here all the time - some State Police laser marked guns fetch 50% more than normal versions due to collectors.
   They sell them thru Distributors - but the guns sales are still Fed regulated - so the Department/Agencies just default to the fact it was legally disposed of etc if something like that occurs.


brihard said:


> Domestically, of course, the RCMP 5946s are also prohibited. Could be interesting if they at least allowed the option of irreversible conversion to display pieces.


Tell the Commissioner I could get him around 1k a gun for those


----------



## quadrapiper (11 Jan 2022)

dimsum said:


> G2G's suggestion would have helped end the fiasco that is the RCAF Temperate Boot before it started.
> 
> Most RCAF members don't need a heavy steel-toed boot, and no one needs one that feels like it's designed to blood-let you through your heels.


Was looking for this comment. Possibly the least comfortable workboot I've ever worn.


----------



## Good2Golf (11 Jan 2022)

quadrapiper said:


> Was looking for this comment. Possibly the least comfortable workboot I've ever worn.


Perhaps the scale of issue wasn’t right (in the same way the initial boot articles were less than satisfactory), but I can personally attest to the usefulness of having a suitably designed and comfortable Grade 1 boot for some RCAF personnel (aircrew certainly in aircraft where heavy things moving around them is an issue).  I appreciated having a composite/non-metallic safety boot when I got a bit close to a pallet with a bit of momentum.  I don’t know what the composition of the boot was/is, but it was cockpit friendly (non-metallic/ferrous), good sole even in the CWWB-environment, and not uncomfortable (did have ‘old guy’ semi-orthotic inserts).

$0.02


----------



## dimsum (11 Jan 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> I don’t know what the composition of the boot was/is, but it was cockpit friendly (non-metallic/ferrous), good sole even in the CWWB-environment, and not uncomfortable (did have ‘old guy’ semi-orthotic inserts).


Thing is, there are other CSA-approved boots which don't feel like wearing concrete shoes.  

Also, for whatever reason, the Temperate boot had a heel cup that would literally gouge just above my ankle - I wasn't kidding about the bloodletting.  The CWWB didn't do that and was comfortable, but obviously was too warm for temperate weather.

And a minor but hilarious point - the sole and uppers would squeak down hallways.  You could never sneak up on anyone indoors because it sounded like a pack of mice


----------



## quadrapiper (11 Jan 2022)

dimsum said:


> Thing is, there are other CSA-approved boots which don't feel like wearing concrete shoes.


That. Extremely inflexible.

Are the CWW seaboots as aviation-friendly? Certainly more comfortable.


----------



## dimsum (11 Jan 2022)

quadrapiper said:


> That. Extremely inflexible.
> 
> Are the CWW seaboots as aviation-friendly? Certainly more comfortable.


Probably?  Both environments need safety toe and fire retardancy.  I'd say the FOD sole was the big difference but they don't even have that with the current boots, so that's a wash.

I recall something about needing a full-leather boot with no zipper, which made no sense to me since you'd want to get in (and more importantly, out) of your boot in a hurry.


----------



## daftandbarmy (11 Jan 2022)

dimsum said:


> And a minor but hilarious point - the sole and uppers would squeak down hallways.  You could never sneak up on anyone indoors because it sounded like a pack of mice



Because Peacekeepers don't need to 'sneak' anywhere


----------



## Maxman1 (12 Jan 2022)

KevinB said:


> LE does it down here all the time - some State Police laser marked guns fetch 50% more than normal versions due to collectors.
> They sell them thru Distributors - but the guns sales are still Fed regulated - so the Department/Agencies just default to the fact it was legally disposed of etc if something like that occurs.
> 
> Tell the Commissioner I could get him around 1k a gun for those



Chretien outlawed that with the Firearms Act. No government firearms can surplussed to the public. Even the Rangers' No. 4 Mk 2s can't be sold off, but they may or may not be ignoring the law for those.


----------



## KevinB (12 Jan 2022)

Maxman1 said:


> Chretien outlawed that with the Firearms Act. No government firearms can surplussed to the public. Even the Rangers' No. 4 Mk 2s can't be sold off, but they may or may not be ignoring the law for those.


There are always go arounds.  You sell them to a Local Department that doesn't have that rule - who then has them transferred to a Distributor south of the border.  Or depending upon how the verbiage is with "Public" you may just be able to go direct with the Distributor, and have a provision they cannot be re-exported to Canada.


----------



## Haggis (12 Jan 2022)

KevinB said:


> There are always go arounds.  You sell them to a Local Department that doesn't have that rule - who then has them transferred to a Distributor south of the border.  Or depending upon how the verbiage is with "Public" you may just be able to go direct with the Distributor, and have a provision they cannot be re-exported to Canada.


You cannot import a prohibited firearms into Canada under any circumstances, even as a 12(X) licence holder, so that's not an issue in your proposal.

Export of a prohibited firearm and/or components requires a permit from the Global Affairs Canada and the receiving state.  

US law, specifically, also places restrictions on the re-importation to the US of US manufactured firearms that were permanently exported from the US.  So, if the firearms in question were manufactured in the US and deemed permanently exported when sold to the GoC/RCMP, they may be ineligible for re-importation.

*TANGENT*: This, IMO, is one of the more disgusting things about the May 1st, 2020 OIC gun ban. The Liberals included the possibility of exporting banned firearms knowing full well that US law prohibits this in most cases and that the Minister of Foreign Affairs may deny *any* Canadian export permit application. *TANGENT ENDS*


----------



## KevinB (12 Jan 2022)

Haggis said:


> You cannot import a prohibited firearms into Canada under any circumstances, even as a 12(X) licence holder, so that's not an issue in your proposal.


But you could theoretically add a 106mm barrel - and thus it wouldn't be a prohibited 12(6) handgun anymore (in the case of the Mountie Smiths)


Haggis said:


> Export of a prohibited firearm and/or components requires a permit from the Global Affairs Canada and the receiving state.
> 
> US law, specifically, also places restrictions on the re-importation to the US of US manufactured firearms that were permanently exported from the US.  So, if the firearms in question were manufactured in the US and deemed permanently exported when sold to the GoC/RCMP, they may be ineligible for re-importation.


Pistols (for the most part)  don't fall into that category - generally just AR's and other Modern Sporting Rifles, which really pissed me off - as when I moved down here, I had some nice AR's that couldn't come down - and my fire sale pricing hurt.

   I know some folks who just imported a few former LE made in Smyrna Glocks from Canada.


Haggis said:


> *TANGENT*: This, IMO, is one of the more disgusting things about the May 1st, 2020 OIC gun ban. The Liberals included the possibility of exporting banned firearms knowing full well that US law prohibits this in most cases and that the Minister of Foreign Affairs may deny *any* Canadian export permit application. *TANGENT ENDS*


I am sure the Canadian Government would love to get rid of all those hateful things - especially if it is a good deal.


----------



## Haggis (12 Jan 2022)

KevinB said:


> I am sure the Canadian Government would love to get rid of all those hateful things - especially if it is a good deal.


The Liberals and Wendy want them confiscated and destroyed, with or without compensation.  They want no possibility of a future gun friendly government reversing the ban and these things being available for re-importation.


----------



## KevinB (12 Jan 2022)

Haggis said:


> The Liberals and Wendy want them confiscated and destroyed, with or without compensation.  They want no possibility of a future gun friendly government reversing the ban and these things being available for re-importation.


Clearly Communists - as they could fund the replacements and make the world a better place if they would sell them down here...


----------



## OldSolduer (12 Jan 2022)

Haggis said:


> The Liberals and Wendy want them confiscated and destroyed, with or without compensation.  They want no possibility of a future gun friendly government reversing the ban and these things being available for re-importation.


I'd like to see where Wendy gets her funding from. Follow the money....


----------



## Colin Parkinson (18 Jan 2022)

What is old is new again









						A Classic is Reborn: The Return of the FN High Power 9mm Pistol - The Truth About Guns
					

&#9664Previous Post Next Post▶ No, that spelling isn’t a typo. FN, of course, built the original High Power — then dubbed the Hi Power — along with John Moses Browning back in 1935. Much to gun buyers’ dismay, the Browning Hi Power was discontinued years ago, but now FN is exciting SHOT...




					www.thetruthaboutguns.com


----------



## Haggis (18 Jan 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> What is old is new again
> 
> 
> 
> ...


FN is not alone. Springfield 
Armory has one out, too


----------



## Colin Parkinson (18 Jan 2022)

Likely all made in Turkey, which not a bad thing.


----------



## daftandbarmy (20 Jan 2022)

Meanwhile, in France, it looks like every member of the the new French Infantry Squad/Section, in addition to the HK 416 etc, will be carrying a sidearm - the Glock 17:


----------



## Ostrozac (20 Jan 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Meanwhile, in France, it looks like every member of the the new French Infantry Squad/Section, in addition to the HK 416 etc, will be carrying a sidearm - the Glock 17:


To be fair, the pistol weighs about the same as the bayonet we’ve traditionally wanted everyone to carry. In terms of the soldier’s combat load it’s a bit of a wash. I know which of the two I’d rather have handy in a close fight, and it isn’t a big-ass Rambo knife to attach to my carbine.

It’s also about the same weight as two frag grenades, for what that’s worth.


----------



## Haggis (21 Jan 2022)

Ostrozac said:


> It’s also about the same weight as two frag grenades, for what that’s worth.


And less accurate without proper training.


----------



## daftandbarmy (21 Jan 2022)

Ostrozac said:


> To be fair, the pistol weighs about the same as the bayonet we’ve traditionally wanted everyone to carry. In terms of the soldier’s combat load it’s a bit of a wash. I know which of the two I’d rather have handy in a close fight, and it isn’t a big-ass Rambo knife to attach to my carbine.
> 
> It’s also about the same weight as two frag grenades, for what that’s worth.



I always found a pistol to be a PITA, for one reason or another, and stuck with a proper rifle on it's own...

... backed up by a caustic sense of humour, of course


----------



## Haggis (21 Jan 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> ... backed up by a caustic sense of humour, of course


Which requires less training than using a pistol properly.


----------



## Maxman1 (21 Jan 2022)

First Springfield makes a copy of the Hi Power, then FN themselves brought back a new version, now Longthorn Gunmakers of Britain is making a Hi Power with a some changes but otherwise more faithful than the FN.


----------



## Maxman1 (21 Jan 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> I always found a pistol to be a PITA, for one reason or another, and stuck with a proper rifle on it's own...
> 
> ... backed up by a caustic sense of humour, of course



If I recall, Jeff Cooper once said a pistol was to be used to fight your way back to the rifle you shouldn't have put down.


----------



## daftandbarmy (21 Jan 2022)

Maxman1 said:


> If I recall, Jeff Cooper once said a pistol was to be used to fight your way back to the rifle you shouldn't have put down.



That. Is. Awesome.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (21 Jan 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> I'd like to see where Wendy gets her funding from. Follow the money....


Follow the money indeed. I'll bet the current government has continued, if not expanded, the grant.








						We Paid $380,600 to Coalition for Gun Control in 2002: Hoplite | TheGunBlog.ca
					

Canadians paid $380,600 to the Coalition for Gun Control in 2002 through government funding, according to a report by the Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying of Canada and published by Hoplite Tactical. Even if it was 15 years ago, it shows how gun owners, shooters and hunters finance those...




					thegunblog.ca


----------



## KevinB (24 Jan 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> I always found a pistol to be a PITA, for one reason or another, and stuck with a proper rifle on it's own...


One thing about pistols especially in places like Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, is that the pistol was an execution weapon.
   You can point rifles, MG's etc at people and they don't get the point - even if you fire a few shots near people -but- you get your pistol out - and they immediately know you mean business.   Runs very contrary to the Western mind - but I guess if you deal with decades of folks executing people in a ditch with a pistol - it makes a memory...

So Pistols save lives


----------



## OldSolduer (24 Jan 2022)

KevinB said:


> One thing about pistols especially in places like Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, is that the pistol was an execution weapon.
> You can point rifles, MG's etc at people and they don't get the point - even if you fire a few shots near people -but- you get your pistol out - and they immediately know you mean business.   Runs very contrary to the Western mind - but I guess if you deal with decades of folks executing people in a ditch with a pistol - it makes a memory...
> 
> So Pistols save lives


You have a point. 

How's that pistol buy going? Or maybe save it for 2023?


----------



## PuckChaser (24 Jan 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> You have a point.
> 
> How's that pistol buy going? Or maybe save it for 2023?


We'll buy and deliver pistols for Ukraine in shorter time than it takes someone to finish BMQ. Our system sucks.


----------



## dimsum (24 Jan 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> We'll buy and deliver pistols for Ukraine in shorter time than it takes someone to finish BMQ. Our system sucks.


"Weird - Ukraine is asking for new LRP aircraft, RPAS, fighters, SAR aircraft, Tactical helicopters, Maritime helicopters, Refuelling aircraft, tac vests, flight suits, _and_ pistols!"


----------



## MilEME09 (24 Jan 2022)

dimsum said:


> "Weird - Ukraine is asking for new LRP aircraft, RPAS, fighters, SAR aircraft, Tactical helicopters, Maritime helicopters, Refuelling aircraft, tac vests, flight suits, _and_ pistols!"


Yes.....weird


----------



## daftandbarmy (24 Jan 2022)

dimsum said:


> "Weird - Ukraine is asking for new LRP aircraft, RPAS, fighters, SAR aircraft, Tactical helicopters, Maritime helicopters, Refuelling aircraft, tac vests, flight suits, _and_ pistols!"



Maybe someone will 'accidentally' put  few thousand of those pistols on a different aircraft and send them off to the CAF


----------



## dimsum (24 Jan 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Maybe someone will 'accidentally' put  few thousand of those pistols on a different aircraft and send them off to the CAF


----------



## Haggis (24 Jan 2022)

dimsum said:


> "Weird - Ukraine is asking for new LRP aircraft, RPAS, fighters, SAR aircraft, Tactical helicopters, Maritime helicopters, Refuelling aircraft, tac vests, flight suits, _and_ pistols!"


Would the Russians really have a use for captured surplus Canadian pistols?  If so, send them Brownings.


----------



## dimsum (24 Jan 2022)

Haggis said:


> Would the Russians really have a use for captured surplus Canadian pistols?  If so, send them Brownings.


Maybe as clubs.


----------



## Ostrozac (24 Jan 2022)

Haggis said:


> Would the Russians really have a use for captured surplus Canadian pistols?  If so, send them Brownings.


They could sell them for hard currency on the collectors market — something that Canada refuses to do.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (24 Jan 2022)

As KevinB pointed out they be worth a lot of money on the collectors market. Knowing our government, they buy 20,000 pistols for the Ukrainians  overnight and spend another decade before we get some.


----------



## KevinB (25 Jan 2022)

Maybe that $260 million or so of aid was just in vintage collectible pistols…


----------



## Haggis (25 Jan 2022)

KevinB said:


> Maybe that $260 million or so of aid was just in vintage collectible pistols…


Or all the P320/M17s that Canada was going to buy before Glock complained just got diverted to Ukraine?


----------



## Haggis (25 Jan 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> As KevinB pointed out they be worth a lot of money on the collectors market. Knowing our government, they buy 20,000 pistols for the Ukrainians  overnight and spend *another decade* before we get some.


You're quite the optimist!


----------



## markppcli (25 Jan 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> As KevinB pointed out they be worth a lot of money on the collectors market. Knowing our government, they buy 20,000 pistols for the Ukrainians  overnight and spend another decade before we get some.


Well we were delivering new pistols to the ANP in like 2008 ( S&W MP 9mm, which I mean aren’t the best but I’d carry one over a browning) so I think a decade may be optimistic.


----------



## OldSolduer (25 Jan 2022)

341 days left.


----------



## GreggH (15 Mar 2022)

I'm long out of the military game, but fully immersed in public procurement.  Something prompted me to look at the pistol RFP.  I've read the comments in this thread about some of the requirements which excluded Glock, but I couldn't find any on one I assume it can meet.   I assume it isn't controversial because isn't blocking them, but it struck me as odd.

The requirement?  The need for a .40 calibre conversion kit.

Last I heard, the 40 was dead or dying in the police and civilian markets.  When did it ever have a place in the military market, other than the US Coast Guard? 

Anyone have any insight on the mission requirement?


----------



## KevinB (15 Mar 2022)

Which is odd because you can simply put a .40 slide on Gen4+ Glocks and shoot them on 9mm frames.


----------



## Haggis (16 Mar 2022)

GreggH said:


> The requirement?  The need for a .40 calibre conversion kit.


I couldn't find that requirement in the NPP documents.  The only calibre references were to 9mm X 19mm and 9mm X 19mm +P. 


KevinB said:


> Which is odd because you can simply put a .40 slide on Gen4+ Glocks and shoot them on 9mm frames.


The requirements to have a removeable fire control group/trigger group and for only that component to be serialized have been dropped.  This no longer favours only the P320. 

But wait, there's more!!!

From Annex C of the NPP documents:

"3.9.2  The C22 FF pistol must have a striker deactivation button or other mechanical mechanism that will allow the shooter to disassemble the pistol without having to pull the trigger"


----------



## KevinB (16 Mar 2022)

Haggis said:


> "3.9.2  The C22 FF pistol must have a striker deactivation button or other mechanical mechanism that will allow the shooter to disassemble the pistol with having to pull the trigger"


Did you mean Without?


----------



## Haggis (16 Mar 2022)

KevinB said:


> Did you mean Without?


Yes, I did.  Had to type the text out verbatim because the document would only open in preview mode so I couldn't cut & paste.  That failed miserably....original text amended.


----------



## KevinB (16 Mar 2022)

Haggis said:


> Yes, I did.  Had to type the text out verbatim because the document would only open in preview mode so I couldn't cut & paste.  That failed miserably....original text amended.


Glock actually has a model like that - and one with a manual safety.
  Will they submit it to the CAF, probably not if the TDP requirement to Colt Canada still exists.
 Honestly if I was Glock, I would just open up a Glock Canada shop - sure the #'s for the CAF aren't huge, but there are decent sized LEA's and a small commercial market.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (16 Mar 2022)

I love my Sigs, but i can see the general army cleaning them to an early death. A Glock is likley to be more or less impervious to poor and over enthusiastic cleanings


----------



## OldSolduer (16 Mar 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> I love my Sigs, but i can see the general army cleaning them to an early death. A Glock is likley to be more or less impervious to poor and over enthusiastic cleanings


Many years ago a peer and I said we clean our weapons way too much, with the wrong stuff. When there is nothing to do "draw weapons and clean them" is not a good course of action, unless the weapons are dirty of course.


----------



## GreggH (16 Mar 2022)

Haggis said:


> I couldn't find that requirement in the NPP documents.  The only calibre references were to 9mm X 19mm and 9mm X 19mm +P.
> 
> The requirements to have a removeable fire control group/trigger group and for only that component to be serialized have been dropped.  This no longer favours only the P320.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your response.  I'll take it that there is no discussion of adopting a new calibre.

I was looking at Annex C, s. 3.1.4:  "Calibre Conversion Kits must be available to permit changing the calibre of the C22 FF pistol from 9 x 19 mm to .40 calibre without having to replace the trigger mechanism."  (From the 1 Feb 2021 version.  It may have been a draft published with the NPP.)

I have no issue with requirements which eliminate potential contenders.  The issue arises when there is no reasonable explanation for the requirement, or for the importance accorded to it (e.g., the 'must haves' vs. the really nice to haves" vs. "nice, if I don't have to pay extra for it").   If s. 3.1.4 was deleted from the actual RFP, or turned into a scored requirement (if there was some potential for adoption), that would seem appropriate.  Still leaves me wondering how it made through to the final draft, but I'm guessing it snuck its way into the first draft because someone cribbed from the US Army procurement docs.


----------



## Booter (16 Mar 2022)

RFPs etc aside- what does the experience here see as the “bring” for an army pistol? Is it performance? Durability? Simplicity? 

Like what’s the unique thing that a military pistol has to have?


----------



## Haggis (16 Mar 2022)

GreggH said:


> Thanks for your response.  I'll take it that there is no discussion of adopting a new calibre.
> 
> I was looking at Annex C, s. 3.1.4:  "Calibre Conversion Kits must be available to permit changing the calibre of the C22 FF pistol from 9 x 19 mm to .40 calibre without having to replace the trigger mechanism."  (From the 1 Feb 2021 version.  It may have been a draft published with the NPP.)


The NPP I quoted was from Feb 2022.  There is no 3.1.4 in Annex C any longer.


GreggH said:


> Still leaves me wondering how it made through to the final draft, but I'm guessing it snuck its way into the first draft *because someone cribbed from the US Army procurement docs.*


Plagiarism is the most common form of staff work.  If anyone thinks that every parade instruction I wrote as RSM or every Op O/Ex Instr I later wrote as an Ops O was an original composition, they are deluded.  I copied over the shoulders of giants.


----------



## KevinB (16 Mar 2022)

Booter said:


> RFPs etc aside- what does the experience here see as the “bring” for an army pistol? Is it performance? Durability? Simplicity?
> 
> Like what’s the unique thing that a military pistol has to have?


Look at a Glock 

I don't know how the CAF Pistol is weighted currently, I checked out a while back of caring.

  My personal thoughts.
KPP's
Striker Fired (no external hammer)
No External Safety
No Mag Safety
Ambidextrous (mag release, and slide release)
Grip/Frame Texture to provide solid purchase in all environments
Grip/Frame adjustable to accommodate the 5th-9th percentile (hand size)
15+ round capacity standard mag - with 22-24rd capacity magazines available.
S/N marked on Frame, Barrel and Slide (parts controllability)
25,000 rd life span for major component parts (slide, frame, barrel)
Night Sights (at least tritium front)
MRDS Capable
Simmunition Slide Available
1913 rail for WML in front of trigger guard
Trigger guard large enough to safely manipulate trigger with NBCW Glove
Slide Grasping Grooves, Mag Release, and Slide Release all able to be manipulated with NBCW Gloves
Trigger Pull of 4.5-6.5Lbs
Firing Pin Drop Safety
IR Reducing Coating on all external metal surfaces.
2" at 25m accuracy from fixed rest 

OAL, OAW, and OAH negotiable - but around the size of a Glock 19.


There are about 6-7 pistols on the market today that could meet that.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (16 Mar 2022)

GreggH said:


> Thanks for your response.  I'll take it that there is no discussion of adopting a new calibre.
> 
> I was looking at Annex C, s. 3.1.4:  "Calibre Conversion Kits must be available to permit changing the calibre of the C22 FF pistol from 9 x 19 mm to .40 calibre without having to replace the trigger mechanism."  (From the 1 Feb 2021 version.  It may have been a draft published with the NPP.)
> 
> I have no issue with requirements which eliminate potential contenders.  The issue arises when there is no reasonable explanation for the requirement, or for the importance accorded to it (e.g., the 'must haves' vs. the really nice to haves" vs. "nice, if I don't have to pay extra for it").   If s. 3.1.4 was deleted from the actual RFP, or turned into a scored requirement (if there was some potential for adoption), that would seem appropriate.  Still leaves me wondering how it made through to the final draft, but I'm guessing it snuck its way into the first draft because someone cribbed from the US Army procurement docs.


Far better to have .22 sub cal kits for the pistol


----------



## Booter (16 Mar 2022)

You’ve sent me down a reading rabbit hole with the striker fired preference. Did you put the external hammer in parenthesis because you see an advantage to not having that?

I’m going to say that it’s a simplicity and form thing? Like in kit and gloves an external hammer is an extra thing that can make an issue?

I’ve used both. I’m very much laid back on some of this stuff. You hand me a browning I’ll just sort out myself on the firearm. Rather than wish it was something else. Then I meet a minutiae guy and I learn some fascinating stuff.


----------



## Haggis (16 Mar 2022)

Booter said:


> You’ve sent me down a reading rabbit hole with the striker fired preference. Did you put the external hammer in parenthesis because you see an advantage to not having that?
> 
> I’m going to say that it’s a simplicity and form thing? Like in kit and gloves an external hammer is an extra thing that can make an issue?
> 
> I’ve used both. I’m very much laid back on some of this stuff. You hand me a browning I’ll just sort out myself on the firearm. Rather than wish it was something else. Then I meet a minutiae guy and I learn some fascinating stuff.


You've come to the right place.  This forum is far more civilized than most gun forums, which are populated by folks who, while enthusiastic, don't do this for a living.


----------



## KevinB (16 Mar 2022)

Booter said:


> You’ve sent me down a reading rabbit hole with the striker fired preference. Did you put the external hammer in parenthesis because you see an advantage to not having that?
> 
> I’m going to say that it’s a simplicity and form thing? Like in kit and gloves an external hammer is an extra thing that can make an issue?
> 
> I’ve used both. I’m very much laid back on some of this stuff. You hand me a browning I’ll just sort out myself on the firearm. Rather than wish it was something else. Then I meet a minutiae guy and I learn some fascinating stuff.


Striker guns usually do better in environmental conditions (sand/dust, snow/ice etc) than external hammer guns.
  - there aren't a lot of internal hammer guns out there - so I just types Striker.

Don't get me wrong I love hammer guns I have a LAV custom 1911, a Novak BHP, and getting a Staccato P.
  I just don't think they are the best option for a Duty gun (outside a dedicate HR unit - that had no green side role) 

 Military Personnel are expected to be able to function in many environments - the CRBN glove requirement is fairly standard requirement for most weapons - it's bulky and awkward - and is pretty much the "best" think to test - as the assumption is that one won't try to use a firearm with stupid arctic mitts - and use a small anti-contact glove underneath when ones does need to manipulate a weapon in the extreme cold.



Colin Parkinson said:


> Far better to have .22 sub cal kits for the pistol


Most don't work worth a crap - 9mm ball is relatively dirt cheap - and I honestly don't see the training value of a .22LR pistol for a duty gun as the recoil is significantly different - plus any range that will allow .22LR will allow 9mm (and honestly more will allow 9mm with EFMJ - as there is no exposed lead).

  If I had my druthers - everyone would learn on the pistol first - as shooting a pistol is harder than a rifle (trigger weight, compared to overall weapon weight) - and the barrel length/size makes safety that much more important -- if you can shoot a pistol well and safely - then you can handle a carbine/rifle no problem.


----------



## Ostrozac (16 Mar 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Far better to have .22 sub cal kits for the pistol


That ship sailed 25 odd years ago when we binned the vast inventory of indoor ranges that were only rated for 22.* With the move to the great outdoors, there’s no particular reason to shoot 22. And 9mm ammo is something we are actually capable of procuring. 

*Apparently they were about as healthy as eating lead-based paint.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (16 Mar 2022)

Ask the sheriffs in BC that, apparently 50 rds every 18 months was enough. During the ammo shortage everyone was scrambling for 9mm. I find the Sig kit works quite well and allows me to teach basic hand gun skills to newbies with less issues and costs.


----------



## KevinB (16 Mar 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Ask the sheriffs in BC that, apparently 50 rds every 18 months was enough. During the ammo shortage everyone was scrambling for 9mm. I find the Sig kit works quite well and allows me to teach basic hand gun skills to newbies with less issues and costs.


That is simply incompetence at the SO level.
  Government Ammo Contracts (even small Municipal ones) shouldn't have been affected at all, my local SO is pretty small (under 100) and never had an issue getting the 500rds/deputy every 6 months.


----------



## Booter (16 Mar 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Ask the sheriffs in BC that, apparently 50 rds every 18 months was enough. During the ammo shortage everyone was scrambling for 9mm. I find the Sig kit works quite well and allows me to teach basic hand gun skills to newbies with less issues and costs.


That’s a for sure across lots of agencies- quals are 18 rounds, 1 practice, move everyone through the qual, extra rounds for retraining- too many failures make it easier,

Its frustrating isn’t it Colin lol


----------



## Haggis (16 Mar 2022)

The CAF PWT 1 to 3 is 110 rounds.  Most users don't fire all three PWTs.  Canadian LE qualification standards generally  require 32 to 50 tounds annually.


----------



## Booter (16 Mar 2022)

They have been drifting less and less. Especially for us.


----------



## Booter (16 Mar 2022)

Last year our qual was 18? Something very close. I didn’t do the math while I was LOing but it was just over a mag

Brihard may know better I’m curious now. And if he had the update this year he may know this years as well

Three years ago it was 8 rounds? Something in that area

“modernization”

2018 I built a program while
On loan to a rail police agency, it was two mags.

I don’t doubt your number - I’m sure your correct. I just see a trend towards the lighter side


----------



## Colin Parkinson (16 Mar 2022)

I took a Sheriff buddy to a "Skills and Drills night in Abbotsford gun club run by an IPSC instructor. My friend said ; "I just shot more in one night, than in 4 years as a Sheriff" We each went through 300rds of pistol ammo that night. I tell people I can shoot pistol despite my army training. Most soldiers know so little about their firearms, but then think they do know a lot.


----------



## Haggis (16 Mar 2022)

Booter said:


> Last year our qual was 18? Something very close. I didn’t do the math while I was LOing but it was just over a mag
> 
> Brihard may know better I’m curious now. And if he had the update this year he may know this years as well
> 
> ...


My agency's qualification is 50 rounds for recruits and 32 for officers in the field. I'd heard Brihard's agency had dropped their round count significantly for one year as a result of COVID just to try keeping everyone current.


----------



## Booter (16 Mar 2022)

Haggis said:


> My agency's qualification is 50 rounds for recruits and 32 for officers in the field. I'd heard Brihard's agency had dropped their round count significantly for one year as a result of COVID just to try keeping everyone current.


- it was part of the modernization where they were theoretically moving towards having three blocks of pistol skills that added on each other and culminated, but it never actually materialized, 

The current course of fire is well under a mag if I’m doing the math in my head- but there is a skills portion where they shoot as well, a couple dozen rounds but it’s not pass fail

I’m getting married this week so I don’t have access to my FG’s to refer to actual rounds, 

Is your agency course of fire something you’d put here? Just the stages?


----------



## Booter (16 Mar 2022)

I guess the question that brings it back
On topic is- what does the army need in a pistol qual as well? The
Pistol serving a different role for most green Carrys 🤔

My messages  are a little powered by champagne 🤫


----------



## KevinB (17 Mar 2022)

Geez I thought my old departments 48 rd qual x2 a year was light...
30 rds day time (50yd max, to contact min) , 18 a night (25 yd max to contact min) - with lights from car and handheld or WML)
 We have State Minimums - and departments are free to exceed the state min.

I think there should be portion of something like the old FAMS TPS for close range shooting - with uniformed personnel not needing to draw from concealment -- having shot the TPS from concealment it isn't an easy CoF, it's even tougher if you are wearing casual civilian clothes not a business suit.








						An Official Journal Of The NRA | Federal Air Marshal Qualification: Test Your CCW Skills
					

Created for the Federal Air Marshal Service, the Tactical Pistol Course is an excellent source of training for the armed citizen.




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and the FBI 2019 CoF








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Written by: Greg Ellifritz   In 2014, the FBI made a historic change in their qualification course by making the qualification stages more similar to the types of threats that agents face.  I detailed the




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For a CAF member (or ERT LEO's)  I am partial to the RedBackOne Operator Readiness Test - it combines pistol and carbine.
  I've shot it with Jason, both day in gas mask, and at night under NOD's and it is no joke.








						OPERATOR READINESS TEST - ORT
					

Guidelines for the conduct of the Operator Readiness Test This document provides a detailed description of the ORT, the equipment requirements including weapons configuration, ammunition and magazine requirements, authorized targets as well as procedures for conducting the ORT at night and an...




					redbackone.com


----------



## Booter (17 Mar 2022)

KevinB said:


> Geez I thought my old departments 48 rd qual x2 a year was light...
> 30 rds day time (50yd max, to contact min) , 18 a night (25 yd max to contact min) - with lights from car and handheld or WML)
> We have State Minimums - and departments are free to exceed the state min.
> 
> ...


This is awesome thanks. I may run the boys through this on some downtime I have coming up. We re running a massive combined units scenario.

The qual being “light” doesn’t mean that they don’t shoot. It’s the few rounds for the qual but they also have skills sessions- that aren’t pass/fail REALLY. Like shooting on the move or turns etc.

People are passing their quals though- and that’s something that wasn’t happening a few years ago.

What I have observed, and this is three  agencies that use the old RCMP course of fire that needed reliable shooting at 25m.

Officers brought up under the new standards, with no 25m, look at shooting at 25m and beyond they think it’s not doable consistently. We do exposures at 25m, 35m, 50m I’ve demo’d reliable hits at 100 and 120 but it’s just not mentally there.

I think perhaps we were trying to strike a balance between skills and marksmanship and we missed it slightly. But we re tweaking it.

And to give us some credit- I did a municipal police services carbine quals and created a package for a rail agency and they were lagging behind us, awesome people, and they put in work, but it was an eye opener as someone who would rag on my own agency 

I’ve worked with some godly shooters in this outfit. I’m only reliable and it’s through practice I maintain myself- but it’s not like we don’t have a ton of institutional knowledge and a few people on loan from even more talented places,

So I keep the faith.

Now going back to CAP years ago- I remember the pistol qual being quite poor. I would suggest it was more akin to a famil than a skills adoption. And the Navy Sig qual was not much better (at the time)

Is their, in common army, tiers of pistol shooting quals? I would think it would get the least attention in most cases


----------



## lenaitch (17 Mar 2022)

Booter said:


> - it was part of the modernization where they were theoretically moving towards having three blocks of pistol skills that added on each other and culminated, but it never actually materialized,
> 
> The current course of fire is well under a mag if I’m doing the math in my head- but there is a skills portion where they shoot as well, a couple dozen rounds but it’s not pass fail
> 
> ...


Congrats!


----------



## KevinB (17 Mar 2022)

Booter said:


> This is awesome thanks. I may run the boys through this on some downtime I have coming up. We re running a massive combined units scenario.
> 
> The qual being “light” doesn’t mean that they don’t shoot. It’s the few rounds for the qual but they also have skills sessions- that aren’t pass/fail REALLY. Like shooting on the move or turns etc.


 Understood - the reason why I like larger round count quals is you can't really game it.  Plus you can incorporate a lot of skills into the qual - that otherwise often don't get practiced unless the member is a civilian gun enthusiast on the side.

  For LE I believe there must be a Shot/NoShoot decision in a Qual both day and night - hitting a NS is an automatic fail.
 I am really not a fan of most LE qual targets - the photo realistic ones are a lot better (and you can put various objects in their hands - so what a Threat - No Threat is isn't the same.
  You can put the qual target on the rear of it with spray glue - and have the scoring zones clearly defined to the scorer not shooter.



Booter said:


> People are passing their quals though- and that’s something that wasn’t happening a few years ago.
> 
> What I have observed, and this is three  agencies that use the old RCMP course of fire that needed reliable shooting at 25m.
> 
> Officers brought up under the new standards, with no 25m, look at shooting at 25m and beyond they think it’s not doable consistently. We do exposures at 25m, 35m, 50m I’ve demo’d reliable hits at 100 and 120 but it’s just not mentally there.


 Years ago (pre 9-11) I did a Sniper Course with a Large Canadian LE Entity - they would shoot way further than allowed by Dept policy - simply to give the shooter additional confidence in their ability/equipment when the time came.

 I used to shoot Huns Heads with the BHP at 100m at Connaught - it took a lot of time (and coaching and ammo) for me to be able to do it reliably - I think a 50yd Body Shot should be well within the realm of realism for LE training - and inside 15m an A Zone head 


Booter said:


> I think perhaps we were trying to strike a balance between skills and marksmanship and we missed it slightly. But we re tweaking it.


I did the Vegas Metro SWAT Course a few years ago as art of my teams ERT - they have been really working on the "gunfighting" aspect to their shooting program across the entire agency - they had some issues with some CoF had shoot 2 and holster - and found officers where doing exactly that in gunfights - so altered their program considerably.


Booter said:


> And to give us some credit- I did a municipal police services carbine quals and created a package for a rail agency and they were lagging behind us, awesome people, and they put in work, but it was an eye opener as someone who would rag on my own agency
> 
> I’ve worked with some godly shooters in this outfit. I’m only reliable and it’s through practice I maintain myself- but it’s not like we don’t have a ton of institutional knowledge and a few people on loan from even more talented places,


Pressure to raise a standard is never a bad thing - as long as it's a realistic standard - you can't expect someone allocated 500 or 1000rds a year for training will be able to make a standard designed for someone who gets 70k plus.


Booter said:


> So I keep the faith.
> 
> Now going back to CAP years ago- I remember the pistol qual being quite poor. I would suggest it was more akin to a famil than a skills adoption. And the Navy Sig qual was not much better (at the time)
> 
> Is their, in common army, tiers of pistol shooting quals? I would think it would get the least attention in most cases


You can always use the old Unit Qual








						Favorite Drills: 700 Point Aggregate, AKA The Humbler
					

It was at a Larry Vickers pistol class in 2015 that I first encountered “The Humbler,” a drill that has been adopted by the legendary Delta Force program as a test and training tool for pistol marksmanship. Since that class, I’ve shot the 70-round, 25-yard course of fire many times, and have...



					www.concealedcarry.com
				



  It's not called the Humbler for nothing


----------



## Colin Parkinson (18 Mar 2022)

Well found a pistol that meets the requirement and can be made in Quebec


----------



## Haggis (18 Mar 2022)

Booter said:


> Is your agency course of fire something you’d put here? Just the stages?


Our recruit course of fire is the same one used by the RCMP at Depot. Our in-service for officers is very close to the RCMP Instructor level course of fire, but with slightly more liberal timings.


----------



## Booter (18 Mar 2022)

Ah. I know your agency then I believe.

Is yours going to be making some changes soon? On the Horizon yet?


----------



## Haggis (18 Mar 2022)

Booter said:


> Ah. I know your agency then I believe.
> 
> Is yours going to be making some changes soon? On the Horizon yet?


All I will say is watch for a similar thread about my agency in the not-too-distant future. 😁


----------



## brihard (18 Mar 2022)

Haggis said:


> Our recruit course of fire is the same one used by the RCMP at Depot. Our in-service for officers is very close to the RCMP Instructor level course of fire, but with slightly more liberal timings.


The old RCMP course of fire (5 stage), or one of the newer iterations from the past five years?

RCMP shooting was very marksmanship focused for a long time. There was lip service paid to stoppages and such, and a very basic level of proficiency achieved, but it wasn’t fighting with a gun.

After Mayerthorpe, the carbine program accelerated… Sadly not in time for Moncton. But in any case, the carbine program, once finally rolled out, came with a decent package. I believe Millbrook had a hand in its design, though of course as a five day course that started with the assumption a shooter had never handled a semiautomatic rifle before, it only took things so far. Still, it was fighting with a gun. After that, they then turned to the pistol program and rebuilt it from the ground up. It’s not too bad. Recognize that a reality the RCMP faces is the need to train and requalify members literally anywhere. Any qual must be shootable in a gravel pit with zero amenities. Most Mounties will get a training shoot once or twice a year, and a requal.

The annual qualification scored portion is much shorter and closer than it used to be. It’s based off a couple things. One is a no BS assessment of what police shootings normally look like. They’re usually close and quick. The qual focuses on a fast close engagement and 100% round accountability. However, part 2 of the qual, which changes each year, is a dynamic training portion that the member must safely complete, but that’s designed to get them comfortable with combat shooting. Again, bear in mind that they may only on the range a couple times a year. Part of the thinking is that in the old 5 stage qual, inevitably one or two people would have to reshoot every. Effing. Stage. Meanwhile another ten members sit there for much of a day picking their noses. The new approach results in a lot more range time and rounds downrange. It’s a far cry from ideal, but police forces tend not to have an overabundance of operational bodies, and unlike CAF, every workday is generally operational, with training an uncommon exception. Every bit of training for operational members takes members off the road or out from active investigative work.

My recollection from CAF (released two years ago), and going off 14 years PRes including a Kandahar tour- our pistol training was super limited. It appeared briefly in my DP2A Infantry Platoon Support Weapons course, and then again on my DP3A Small Arms Instructor course. We also shot it a bit on predeployment training. But nobody with much of a clue taught me pistol until I did my Urban Ops Instructor course. We got a solid week with the Browning, led by a dude who was scary good with handguns. That was the first time I ever began to develop any real confidence with a handgun.

I’ve since qualified as a pistol instructor for my organization, though I never ended up in a full time training unit- I got offered that gig on a Wednesday and then while mulling it offer, was offered a different gig that appealed to me stronger, so any of my pistol teaching on the policing side has been as an occasional augmented instructor. I can’t process any true expertise. I can help a beginner shooter become decent, and a decent shooter become a bit safer and a bit more likely to win a fight each time we go to the range. But I’m not one of those guys who achieves wizardry on the line. I remain much more effective and zoned-in with a C8 than a handgun.


----------



## Haggis (19 Mar 2022)

brihard said:


> The old RCMP course of fire (5 stage), or one of the newer iterations from the past five years?


Recruits do the 5 stage/50 round "old" RCMP one.  In service members do the new one mentioned above.


brihard said:


> The annual qualification scored portion is much shorter and closer than it used to be. It’s based off a couple things. One is a no BS assessment of what police shootings normally look like. They’re usually close and quick. The qual focuses on a fast close engagement and 100% round accountability.


Same with us.  Because our new one is so simple and easy to score (and the scoring is unforgiving) I can run the a full course of fire from Load to Unload in 12 1/2 minutes with no reshoots or unplanned stoppages (which, if cleared correctly, entitle the shooter to a "do over" of that stage if they were unable to finish all their rounds).


brihard said:


> However, part 2 of the qual, which changes each year, is a dynamic training portion that the member must safely complete, but that’s designed to get them comfortable with combat shooting. Again, bear in mind that they may only on the range a couple times a year. Part of the thinking is that in the old 5 stage qual, inevitably one or two people would have to reshoot every. Effing. Stage. Meanwhile another ten members sit there for much of a day picking their noses. The new approach results in a lot more range time and rounds downrange.


Same with us.  But thanks to COVID, our first year of this training model ran two years just to catch everyone up.  The "developmental" session runs between 200-350 rounds, with lots of opportunity to fine tune weaknesses in what's being taught.  I really like running those sessions.


----------



## Booter (19 Mar 2022)

I guess we ll see the round counts over the next few years. They are trending down, and are artificially high because during modernization we were firing hundreds more during the adoption of new manipulations.

I’m hard pressed to think of an average member that’s getting three days shooting annually

I’m currently addressing a divisions needs for shooting, including austere ranges, and that doesn’t match any numbers.

Which data and which stage of the new course of fire do you think addresses a real gun fight? I hear that a lot. Including from program holders but I don’t get good answers. (Besides fast and close- the timings/facings/ rounds delivered aren’t correct)

I appreciate your considerable experience Bri. But the coming off duty to qual and how that’s a drain…The need to qual in it’s present form for 24 years I think. It’s mis management that creates that issue, not necessity. It’s sheer willpower by you and others that moves that along in any successful form.

Haggis around 2014, plus or minus or year, we’re you a ppsi that was given the update by the Mounties? I believe the first portion was just a ppsi user course where they took a cross section of BSOs for the new scenarios

I’m trying to see if I’ve met you


----------



## Booter (19 Mar 2022)

And I just realized this was the army pistol thread. I apologize for the hard right. PM if you’d like


----------



## Colin Parkinson (10 Apr 2022)

This gives you the price that the US paid and some idea of why the US went with the M17 instead.


----------



## KevinB (11 Apr 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> This gives you the price that the US paid and some idea of why the US went with the M17 instead.


Yet it misses why a requirement for a 35k round pistol bought the Sig, when the USSS and FBI with a 20k and 15k round requirement respectively bought Glock when the Sig’s fell parts between 10-15k rounds. 
   It also misses the FBI testimony to GOA on why the Sig is a miserable turd. 

SOCOM is still buying Glock 19’s when they could get service common M17 and M18 for free…
    Might be a clue


----------



## Colin Parkinson (11 Apr 2022)

10-15,000 rds, that at least 25 years of service in your average Canadian unit.....


----------



## Colin Parkinson (11 Apr 2022)

An option that fits our likely future budgets


----------



## KevinB (11 Apr 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> An option that fits our likely future budgets
> 
> View attachment 70014


Several years ago some DBag tried to shoot me with one of those -- it went click -- I had a Glock...


----------



## Haggis (11 Apr 2022)

KevinB said:


> Several years ago some DBag tried to shoot me with one of those -- it went click -- I had a Glock...


So, the High Point is safe from ND's then?


----------



## KevinB (11 Apr 2022)

Haggis said:


> So, the High Point is safe from ND's then?


Actually I think they go when they should stop, and stop when they should go.
  The fact they are still in business says a lot of for the intelligence of their average buyer, mind you I suspect 99% of them are straw purchase buys.  I've never known anyone to intentionally buy one.


----------



## Haggis (11 Apr 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> 10-15,000 rds, that at least 25 years of service in your average Canadian unit.....


I'm closing in on 10K through my three year old P320.  COVID slowed me down a lot or I'd be well beyond that by now.

I have no idea how many rounds have gone through my 76 year old FN High Power. 😲


----------



## Colin Parkinson (11 Apr 2022)

Haggis said:


> I'm closing in on 10K through my three year old P320.  COVID slowed me down a lot or I'd be well beyond that by now.
> 
> I have no idea how many rounds have gone through my 76 year old FN High Power. 😲


I know top level IPSC shooters burn through 40,000 rds a year just to stay competitive. that's $6-12,000 on reloaded ammunition alone.


----------



## KevinB (11 Apr 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> I know top level IPSC shooters burn through 40,000 rds a year just to stay competitive. that's $6-12,000 on reloaded ammunition alone.


I can reload 9mm for about $0.15 (plus time) at over 600rds an hour on my Dillion XL650.
   But I hate picking up brass, so I generally shoot factory - if you buy it by the 50,000s it's not that much more money.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (11 Apr 2022)

KevinB said:


> I can reload 9mm for about $0.15 (plus time) at over 600rds an hour on my Dillion XL650.
> But I hate picking up brass, so I generally shoot factory - if you buy it by the 50,000s it's not that much more money.


LOL I need to go shooting with you, I am such a brass slut....


----------



## OldSolduer (11 Apr 2022)

At the rate its going you'll be lucky to get a water pistol....


----------



## KevinB (27 Apr 2022)

Probably should be changed to will 2022 see a new pistol buy.


----------



## PuckChaser (27 Apr 2022)

I'm sure you meant 2032...


----------



## Colin Parkinson (27 Apr 2022)

They wait to 2044, so they can celebrate the 100th year anniversary of our pistols.


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## KevinB (27 Apr 2022)

They are going for stupid money down here now 



			https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/76/728/canadian-inglis-no-2-mk-1-high-power-semiautomatic-pistol
		










						INGLIS MK1 NO2 HIGH POWER - C50443
					

Firearms for the Finest Collectors




					simpsonltd.com


----------



## dimsum (27 Apr 2022)

KevinB said:


> They are going for stupid money down here now
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What if this is the way the CAF gets 2% of GDP?


----------



## dapaterson (27 Apr 2022)

dimsum said:


> What if this is the way the CAF gets 2% of GDP?


We can sell them to ourselves!


----------



## brihard (7 Oct 2022)

MD Charlton has won the tender and will begin delivery of the C22 (Sig P320) in mid 2023.






						Canada awards contract for new Army pistols - Canada.ca
					

Today, the Honourable Anita Anand, Minister of National Defence, announced a contract award valued at $3.2 million (USD) to provide the Canadian Army with new pistols and holster systems. Following an open and transparent competitive process, M.D. Charlton Co. Ltd. of Victoria, B.C., was awarded...




					www.canada.ca


----------



## SeaKingTacco (7 Oct 2022)

Huh, an actual pistol buy. How about that…

And MD Charlton are a good bunch to deal with.


----------



## GR66 (7 Oct 2022)

Anyone know how much commonality the C22 version of the P320 will have with the M17 version used by the US?


----------



## brihard (7 Oct 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Huh, an actual pistol buy. How about that…
> 
> And MD Charlton are a good bunch to deal with.


I’m sure it was in the tender and I missed it. Anyone seen what they’re buying for the holster?


----------



## Good2Golf (7 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> I’m sure it was in the tender and I missed it. Anyone seen what they’re buying for the holster?


So long as it isn’t that Bianci piece of crap…


----------



## dapaterson (7 Oct 2022)

Holsters will likely be a follow on procurement.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (7 Oct 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Huh, an actual pistol buy. How about that…
> 
> And MD Charlton are a good bunch to deal with.


7,000 pistols is like an average Police Department in the US, but I am really glad to hear this. I just fear what they are going to do with BHP's.


----------



## KevinB (7 Oct 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Holsters will likely be a follow on procurement.


Holster is part of the contract - so whatever MDC likely submitted with the bid.  Or in true Canadian Fashion whatever they rep with the highest margin…


----------



## dapaterson (7 Oct 2022)

I am surprised, frequently they procure ancillaries like holsters as a separate contract.  Definitely an improvement.


----------



## Weinie (7 Oct 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> 7,000 pistols is like an average Police Department in the US, but I am really glad to hear this. I just fear what they are going to do with BHP's.


Pffft. All pistols at all are verboten.


----------



## KevinB (7 Oct 2022)

dapaterson said:


> I am surprised, frequently they procure ancillaries like holsters as a separate contract.  Definitely an improvement.


It’s only an improvement if you get a decent holster.  Otherwise it’s a total boondoggle.


----------



## Fabius (7 Oct 2022)

Finally. Let’s hope we don’t snatch defeat out of victory. 

Australia also announced last week that they chose the P320. They are also going a step further though and jumping all in with their plan to mass issue miniature red dot optics and weapon mounted lights with all their pistols. That is something that is basically bleeding edge even for police services let alone a military.


----------



## Haggis (7 Oct 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> So long as it isn’t that Bianci piece of crap…


Still better than a Dremel-modified P226 holster. 😲


----------



## OldSolduer (7 Oct 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> 7,000 pistols is like an average Police Department in the US, but I am really glad to hear this. I just fear what they are going to do with BHP's.


I'd grab a decent one and a few mags just for shits and giggles. Actually I never had a problem with the Browning unless the mags were shit.


----------



## suffolkowner (7 Oct 2022)

Why is the buy such a low number and how long do we expect them to last?


----------



## dapaterson (7 Oct 2022)

There are options for more built in to the contract.  I suspect all options will be exercised.


----------



## dimsum (7 Oct 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> 7,000 pistols is like an average Police Department in the US, but I am really glad to hear this. I just fear what they are going to do with BHP's.


----------



## markppcli (9 Oct 2022)

Hopefully we don’t inflict them on Ukraine.


----------



## Kat Stevens (9 Oct 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> I'd grab a decent one and a few mags just for shits and giggles. Actually I never had a problem with the Browning unless the mags were shit.


I especially liked the ones that rattled when you gave it a little shake, I was unaware a floating barrel was a desired design concept in a hand canon.


----------



## brihard (9 Oct 2022)

Fabius said:


> Finally. Let’s hope we don’t snatch defeat out of victory.
> 
> Australia also announced last week that they chose the P320. They are also going a step further though and jumping all in with their plan to mass issue miniature red dot optics and weapon mounted lights with all their pistols. That is something that is basically bleeding edge even for police services let alone a military.


Vancouver Police just went with red dot sight and mounted flashlight, and the RCMP are in the tendering process and have that too.


----------



## Haggis (9 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> Vancouver Police just went with red dot sight and mounted flashlight, and the RCMP are in the tendering process and have that too.


Both the CAF and RCMP RFPs made reference to a red dot sight for their respective pistols.

My Agency is musing about a red dot and a mounted light as well.


----------



## CBH99 (9 Oct 2022)

markppcli said:


> Hopefully we don’t inflict them on Ukraine.


Oooffff…

But _all handguns are super dangerous, m’kay?_ and therefore would “show our continued support for Ukraine in their efforts to defend freedom & democracy, and something ALL Canadians can be proud of!”


(For some reason I can already hear him saying it in my head…)


----------



## Grimey (9 Oct 2022)

Our boarding party kit (sans Sigs, MP5s and 870s) was sourced almost entirely from MDC in the late 90s/early oughts.  I concur that they’re great to work with.  I think the company, or at least the storefront, appears to reside in Lizzy May’s riding.  Hmm…


----------



## SeaKingTacco (9 Oct 2022)

Grimey said:


> Our boarding party kit (sans Sigs, MP5s and 870s) was sourced almost entirely from MDC in the late 90s/early oughts.  I concur that they’re great to work with.  I think the company, or at least the storefront, appears to reside in Lizzy May’s riding.  Hmm…


Yup. Keating X Road.


----------



## markppcli (9 Oct 2022)

Grimey said:


> Our boarding party kit (sans Sigs, MP5s and 870s) was sourced almost entirely from MDC in the late 90s/early oughts.  I concur that they’re great to work with.  I think the company, or at least the storefront, appears to reside in Lizzy May’s riding.  Hmm…


I wonder if they’ll manage to find a mag pouch that some how interfaces with any of our kit.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (9 Oct 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Holsters will likely be a follow on procurem





Grimey said:


> Our boarding party kit (sans Sigs, MP5s and 870s) was sourced almost entirely from MDC in the late 90s/early oughts.  I concur that they’re great to work with.  I think the company, or at least the storefront, appears to reside in Lizzy May’s riding.  Hmm…


I cried with joy when they took over the Sig distribution contract from that big company back East which I can't recall the name. Previously trying to get a Sig part as a gun owner was utter hell. MDC actually cares about clients, big and small.


----------



## KevinB (9 Oct 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> I cried with joy when they took over the Sig distribution contract from that big company back East which I can't recall the name. Previously trying to get a Sig part as a gun owner was utter hell. MDC actually cares about clients, big and small.


That would be R. Nichols…
   When I joined KAC in 2009, my first joy was to fire Bob and Co as Knight’s Canadian Rep.


----------



## TacticalTea (10 Oct 2022)

This is awesome. Feels like Christmas.

P320 is what I wished for, and MDC, as SKT said, are great to work with.


----------



## Haggis (10 Oct 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> This is awesome. Feels like Christmas.
> 
> P320 is what I wished for, and MDC, as SKT said, are great to work with.


7,000 pistols is enough to equip al the HQ types across the country to boost their LCF in front of the troops.


----------



## TacticalTea (10 Oct 2022)

Haggis said:


> 7,000 pistols is enough to equip al the HQ types across the country to boost their LCF in front of the troops.


I see getting over the inertia of contractlessness as more important than the number itself! I'd be mighty surprised if they didn't execute the option for more.


----------



## Haggis (10 Oct 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> I see getting over the inertia of contractlessness as more important than the number itself! I'd be mighty surprised if they didn't execute the option for more.


After reconstitution,  7,000 may be all that's needed.


----------



## KevinB (10 Oct 2022)

Honestly of all the equipment issues of the CAF, the pistol should have been a significantly lower priority.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (10 Oct 2022)

Haggis said:


> 7,000 pistols is enough to equip al the HQ types across the country to boost their LCF in front of the troops.


The truth is strong in this one.


----------



## OldSolduer (10 Oct 2022)

Haggis said:


> 7,000 pistols is enough to equip al the HQ types across the country to boost their LCF in front of the troops.


In all seriousness the CAF is not serious about a pistol replacement nor training people to effectively employ them. As you said, they are a status symbol and nothing more.


----------



## KevinB (10 Oct 2022)

Frankly I think the pistol should be the primary learning tool for the Military on basic marksmanship -- pistols are hard to shoot well due, and pistol ammo is cheap, compared to rifle ammo - and generally most pistols last longer (round count) and are both cheaper to get than rifles/carbines, and cheaper to maintain.  The bonus is due to the small size - they are a great safety training tool.

In short I think everyone should be issued one ---

BUT I still stand on my previous statements that it should have been a much lower priority item.
  Modern NODS, and for the C8's a decent rail , MFAL, Suppressors, LPVO would have been a much better upgrade for weapons -- let alone the massive big ticket deficiencies...


----------



## Colin Parkinson (10 Oct 2022)

KevinB said:


> Frankly I think the pistol should be the primary learning tool for the Military on basic marksmanship -- pistols are hard to shoot well due, and pistol ammo is cheap, compared to rifle ammo - and generally most pistols last longer (round count) and are both cheaper to get than rifles/carbines, and cheaper to maintain.  The bonus is due to the small size - they are a great safety training tool.
> 
> In short I think everyone should be issued one ---
> 
> ...


If it gets a project team experienced and they have a "win", likley they are ready for a more complex project.


----------



## Haggis (11 Oct 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> If it gets a project team experienced and they have a "win", likely they are ready for a more complex project.


The original RFP called for up to 22,000 units. We're getting initially 7,000 and, at best, 16,000. That being said, according to the news release, this is an Army-centric buy.  The other services will (may) be equipped later.

Remember, too, that this has dragged on so long that the project is older than the project team members.


----------



## dimsum (11 Oct 2022)

Haggis said:


> The original RFP called for up to 22,000 units. We're getting initially 7,000 and, at best, 16,000. That being said, according to the news release, this is an Army-centric buy.  The other services will (may) be equipped later.
> 
> Remember, too, that this has dragged on so long that the project is older than the project team members.



I thought the RCN uses Sig Sauers exclusively, not the Browning?
Aside from fighter crews, I don't know who in the RCAF regularly uses the 9mm unless deployed.


----------



## KevinB (11 Oct 2022)

dimsum said:


> I thought the RCN uses Sig Sauers exclusively, not the Browning?
> Aside from fighter crews, I don't know who in the RCAF regularly uses the 9mm unless deployed.


Pretty sure the intent was to also replace the P225, P226 and P239 with the new gun, as the modular frame and slide method can accomplish all their roles in one.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (11 Oct 2022)

dimsum said:


> I thought the RCN uses Sig Sauers exclusively, not the Browning?
> Aside from fighter crews, I don't know who in the RCAF regularly uses the 9mm unless deployed.


MH.


----------



## dimsum (11 Oct 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> MH.


Are you _really_ RCAF though?


----------



## SeaKingTacco (11 Oct 2022)

dimsum said:


> Are you _really_ RCAF though?


Too much, if you ask the RCN.

Huh? If you ask the RCAF…


----------



## dimsum (11 Oct 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Too much, if you ask the RCN.
> 
> Huh? If you ask the RCAF…


_Good idea fairy_

Have someone wear the RCN tunic (with wings, etc as appropriate) and an RCAF shirt/tie.  See if anyone notices.

_/Good idea fairy_


----------



## dapaterson (11 Oct 2022)

Or issue Tac Hel pilots blue ranks with Army insignia on them.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (11 Oct 2022)

KevinB said:


> Pretty sure the intent was to also replace the P225, P226 and P239 with the new gun, as the modular frame and slide method can accomplish all their roles in one.


But is it flight and ship certified......


----------



## dimsum (11 Oct 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Or issue Tac Hel pilots blue ranks with Army insignia on them.


...and have the RCN wings for the MH folks.


----------



## Furniture (11 Oct 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> But is it flight and ship certified......


I bet 434 Sqn still has the Hi-Power on the OT&E waiting list...


----------



## SeaKingTacco (11 Oct 2022)

Furniture said:


> I bet 434 Sqn still has the Hi-Power on the OT&E waiting list...


Webley, probably…


----------



## Haggis (12 Oct 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Webley, probably…


----------



## Fishbone Jones (13 Oct 2022)

I enjoy shooting my Webley.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (13 Oct 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> I enjoy shooting my Webley.


Yes in both .455 and 38S&W

Looking at ammunition expenditures for the entire North African Campaign, apparently 1800rds of 38 S&W were expended (at least what was recorded)


----------



## Furniture (13 Oct 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> I enjoy shooting my Webley.


I wish I had one... I'm not really into handguns, but a Webley would be nice.


----------



## Dana381 (3 Nov 2022)

MPD to replace all officer weapons following 'unexpected' discharges
					

The department will being replacement in early 2023.




					spectrumnews1.com
				




I hope the CAF has berrer luck with their pistols than milwaukee has been having.


----------



## Haggis (3 Nov 2022)

Dana381 said:


> MPD to replace all officer weapons following 'unexpected' discharges
> 
> 
> The department will being replacement in early 2023.
> ...


Went off in the holster?


----------



## daftandbarmy (3 Nov 2022)

Dana381 said:


> MPD to replace all officer weapons following 'unexpected' discharges
> 
> 
> The department will being replacement in early 2023.
> ...


----------



## Haggis (4 Nov 2022)

> Officer Adam Maritato was unintentionally shot in the leg *by another officer’s holstered gun.*



I'm going to suspect there was some user/operator interaction with the subject gun which caused it to fire.


----------



## KevinB (4 Nov 2022)

Haggis said:


> I'm going to suspect there was some user/operator interaction with the subject gun which caused it to fire.


Having seen both the USSS and FBI test data during the lifecycle - I personally wouldn’t ever issue anyone a Sig 320.  

Depending on how many rounds went through the gun prior to the incident, it’s not unheard of.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (4 Nov 2022)

KevinB said:


> Having seen both the USSS and FBI test data during the lifecycle - I personally wouldn’t ever issue anyone a Sig 320.
> 
> Depending on how many rounds went through the gun prior to the incident, it’s not unheard of.


Excessive sear wear or the possibility of incorrect reassembly?


----------



## KevinB (4 Nov 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Excessive sear wear or the possibility of incorrect reassembly?


I view it as a sub 12k gun - period.   After that, the internals are shot, which is the serialized part.
   Sure you can swap frames etc - and that has uses, but I tend to thing the alloys used aren't ideal for that role - and wear poorly.
I saw a couple of armor course guns that where flogged to being unsafe for shooting, within a few courses of students "working" on them.

In short, there is a reason SOCOM, the USSS and FBI went with Glock.
  Most notable in USASOC, as they can get free guns from Big Army, and keep buying Glock's.

Now admittedly for most users the Sig 320 will last their service career, as very few folks are high round count shooters.
  Those entities with 320's that do have high round shooters can most likely afford to toss the guns away at 10k rounds too with nary an afterthought.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (4 Nov 2022)

The BHP's were around that with our almost P+ ammo. The nice thing is that buying new pistols is easy, well for everyone else that is.....


----------



## KevinB (4 Nov 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> The BHP's were around that with our almost P+ ammo. The nice thing is that buying new pistols is easy, well for everyone else that is.....


The BHP was a ~15k gun with the SMG ammo, which was way over +P+
   That also totally tore up Sig P226 and P225's leading to folks realizing that maybe the C1 SMG ammo wasn't idea for pistols...

I've got some pretty spicy ball loads from FN's MHS Submission, but they still chrono slower than the old CF SMG ammo (I still have a half box of that somehow).


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## Fishbone Jones (4 Nov 2022)

I got some, but only shoot in my steel guns.


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## Haggis (4 Nov 2022)

KevinB said:


> I view it as a sub 12k gun - period.   After that, the internals are shot, which is the serialized part...





KevinB said:


> Those entities with 320's that do have high round shooters can most likely afford to toss the guns away at 10k rounds too with nary an afterthought.


I've got about 8K through mine (3500 this year alone) and I can count the number of stoppages I've had on one hand. Very little apparent wear in the fire control group.  

But that's me.  If you're not me, YMMV.


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## brihard (5 Nov 2022)

Haggis said:


> I've got about 8K through mine (3500 this year alone) and I can count the number of stoppages I've had on one hand. Very little apparent wear in the fire control group.
> 
> But that's me.  If you're not me, YMMV.


Is that your own 320, or do you guys use them for work now?


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## Haggis (5 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Is that your own 320, or do you guys use them for work now?


That's my own.  I use it for IPSC, IDPA and steel matches.  My agency just started the process to look at a new pistol.


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## brihard (5 Nov 2022)

Haggis said:


> That's my own.  I use it for IPSC, IDPA and steel matches.  My agency just started the process to look at a new pistol.


Any compelling reason not to just piggyback on the RCMP’s buy? They’re pretty late stage in the procurement process. I have to think anything suitable for them should be suitable for you guys.


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## Haggis (5 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Any compelling reason not to just piggyback on the RCMP’s buy? They’re pretty late stage in the procurement process. I have to think anything suitable for them should be suitable for you guys.


I'm not sure, except that we decided to go down this road quite late in the RCMP procurement process which would've resulted in amending or re-starting the Mountie's RFP.


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## brihard (5 Nov 2022)

Haggis said:


> I'm not sure, except that we decided to go down this road quite late in the RCMP procurement process which would've resulted in amending or re-starting the Mountie's RFP.


I don’t mean changing theirs, just if your department could possibly say “hey, run off x number more of those once you build theirs”.

Obviously I haven’t a clue whether federal procurement allows such a thing. But I would hope a department with a same need as another one could leverage an existing procurement process for efficiency’s sake.

…Now that I re-read that, clearly I’m smoking dope. Thinking federal procurement could flow logically and efficiently.


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## McG (5 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> I don’t mean changing theirs, just if your department could possibly say “hey, run off x number more of those once you build theirs”.


If an RFP does not include options for more, the government cannot exercise options for more. You are back out to  re-compete.


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## KevinB (5 Nov 2022)

McG said:


> If an RFP does not include options for more, the government cannot exercise options for more. You are back out to  re-compete.


JNA a Sole Source to add to the RCMP buy.

Depend on your legal and contract folks it could be an easy one to justify, some will balk at it, but it’s effectively a duplication of effort if the PSpec is cloned from the RCMP and as such you just jump on the buy.  It’s pretty common down here - even after award for other entities to MIPR money to the primary and get things off their contract by amendment to the contract ceiling.  

Canadian Contracts don’t allow for JNA to add to contracts?


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## Haggis (5 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> I don’t mean changing theirs, just if your department could possibly say “hey, run off x number more of those once you build theirs”.


The devil would be in the details.  I believe both agencies have custom engraving on their pistols now (mine certainly does) which would alter the terms of the RFP.


brihard said:


> Obviously I haven’t a clue whether federal procurement allows such a thing. But I would hope a department with a same need as another one could leverage an existing procurement process for efficiency’s sake.


The needs are similar, but not the same.  Also, the institutional culture is different.  One has been armed for over 100 years, the other for less than twenty.


brihard said:


> …Now that I re-read that, clearly I’m smoking dope. Thinking federal procurement could flow logically and efficiently.


I thought your account may have been hacked.


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## brihard (5 Nov 2022)

Haggis said:


> The devil would be in the details.  I believe both agencies have custom engraving on their pistols now (mine certainly does) which would alter the terms of the RFP.
> 
> The needs are similar, but not the same.  Also, the institutional culture is different.  One has been armed for over 100 years, the other for less than twenty.
> 
> I thought your account may have been hacked.



Woke up super early. Haven’t poured enough coffee in my face hole yet.


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## KevinB (5 Nov 2022)

Second Contract Line Item (CLIN) for different engraving. 
   Down here SOCOM buys some items off Army contracts, on a different CLIN and thus different DO’s.


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## McG (5 Nov 2022)

KevinB said:


> JNA a Sole Source to add to the RCMP buy.
> 
> Depend on your legal and contract folks it could be an easy one to justify, some will balk at it, but it’s effectively a duplication of effort if the PSpec is cloned from the RCMP and as such you just jump on the buy.  It’s pretty common down here - even after award for other entities to MIPR money to the primary and get things off their contract by amendment to the contract ceiling.
> 
> Canadian Contracts don’t allow for JNA to add to contracts?


I don’t know what JNA means.

Sole sourcing is what CAF would be doing if it directed a buy based on what the RCMP was getting. That is a steep hill to climb for approvals, and it might open the RCMP contract to trade tribunal complaints (losing bidders would declare they’d have had different offers if they had known a CAF contract would have been added after the fact).


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## KevinB (5 Nov 2022)

McG said:


> I don’t know what JNA means.
> 
> Sole sourcing is what CAF would be doing if it directed a buy based on what the RCMP was getting. That is a steep hill to climb for approvals, and it might open the RCMP contract to trade tribunal complaints (losing bidders would declare they’d have had different offers if they had known a CAF contract would have been added after the fact).


Justification and Notification of Award 
   Basically we went with this, due to this.


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## dapaterson (5 Nov 2022)

In Canadian terms, that would be an ACAN - Advanced Contract Award Notice, explaining why vendor X was chosen without an open competition.

A contract can be amended without competition for up to 50% of the original value, but the willingness of PSPC to support such amendments is quite variable.


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## McG (5 Nov 2022)

But an ACAN can be forced to competition if another vendor declares they can provide for the described requirement.


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## dapaterson (5 Nov 2022)

In this instance, depending on the incremental quantity CBSA would require, amending the contract would likely be possible and preferable.


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## Haggis (5 Nov 2022)

dapaterson said:


> In this instance, depending on the incremental quantity CBSA would require, amending the contract would likely be possible and preferable.


The RCMP RFI asked for 25,000 pistols.  CBSA's ask would be for roughly half that, I'd guess.


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## dapaterson (5 Nov 2022)

If it's a RFI, amending the RFP should be eminently achievable.

If the RFP is already out or the bid are in, amending will be more challenging.


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## Haggis (5 Nov 2022)

dapaterson said:


> If it's a RFI, amending the RFP should be eminently achievable.
> 
> If the RFP is already out or the bid are in, amending will be more challenging.


The RFI and RFP stated the contract would be awarded some time next month.  The industry engagement period ended in September.


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## markppcli (5 Nov 2022)

Haggis said:


> I'm not sure, except that we decided to go down this road quite late in the RCMP procurement process which would've resulted in amending or re-starting the Mountie's RFP.


Imagine if we, Canada, had the ability to say “a combat hand gun is a combat hand gun” and just bought a single federal service gun?


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## CBH99 (5 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> I don’t mean changing theirs, just if your department could possibly say “hey, run off x number more of those once you build theirs”.
> 
> Obviously I haven’t a clue whether federal procurement allows such a thing. But I would hope a department with a same need as another one could leverage an existing procurement process for efficiency’s sake.
> 
> …Now that I re-read that, clearly I’m smoking dope. Thinking federal procurement could flow logically and efficiently.


You mean...contact the vendor and say "Ya know what?  Once you've aamade these 25,000 pistols for Client A, can you make another 16,000 for Client B?"

Since both federal agencies will be using the same piece of equipment, it makes no sense to go through the same tedious process...twice.

You aren't smoking dope by thinking logically Bri, although you may want to start smoking it casually!  I hear it does wonders for replacing frustration with apathy


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## dapaterson (5 Nov 2022)

markppcli said:


> Imagine if we, Canada, had the ability to say “a combat hand gun is a combat hand gun” and just bought a single federal service gun?


Try to get R22eR / RCR / PPCLI concurrence on anything.

Then multiply that by multiple federal departments.

In my experience: Joint with VAC is challenging.  Joint with RCMP is moreso.  Joint with both is... an experience.


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## markppcli (5 Nov 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Try to get R22eR / RCR / PPCLI concurrence on anything.
> 
> Then multiply that by multiple federal departments.
> 
> In my experience: Joint with VAC is challenging.  Joint with RCMP is moreso.  Joint with both is... an experience.


Honestly the RCR / PPCLI / Vandoo rivalry is overstated. We all agree the RCR are boring and best left in the barracks for a night out.


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## dapaterson (5 Nov 2022)

markppcli said:


> Honestly the RCR / PPCLI / Vandoo rivalry is overstated. We all agree the RCR are boring and best left in the barracks for a night out.


I admire the passive-aggressive refusal to capitalize The RCR


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## markppcli (5 Nov 2022)

dapaterson said:


> I admire the passive-aggressive refusal to capitalize The RCR


Maybe I’m just uneducated but I assumed that was the correct grammar. No reason to capitalize the before a name.


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## Fishbone Jones (5 Nov 2022)

CBH99 said:


> You mean...contact the vendor and say "Ya know what?  Once you've aamade these 25,000 pistols for Client A, can you make another 16,000 for Client B?"
> 
> Since both federal agencies will be using the same piece of equipment, it makes no sense to go through the same tedious process...twice.
> 
> You aren't smoking dope by thinking logically Bri, although you may want to start smoking it casually!  I hear it does wonders for replacing frustration with apathy


If you are speaking to cannabis. You heard wrong. Nor is it humourous to tag all the Veterans that have used it to get away from the zombie drugs they were on. Apathy? There are more Veterans alive today because of it, than when we were being treated with big pharma. So lots less apathetic than they possibly were. You don't have to respect, or listen to me. You won't  be the first, but think of the Veterans, their plight and the unfair tag you are inadvertently hanging around their neck. Tanks.


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## KevinB (5 Nov 2022)

markppcli said:


> Maybe I’m just uneducated but I assumed that was the correct grammar. No reason to capitalize the before a name.


Perhaps but ‘The RCR’ get very cranky when it’s ignored.


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## markppcli (5 Nov 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> If you are speaking to cannabis. You heard wrong. Nor is it humourous to tag all the Veterans that have used it to get away from the zombie drugs they were on. Apathy? There are more Veterans alive today because of it, than when we were being treated with big pharma. So lots less apathetic than they possibly were. You don't have to respect, or listen to me. You won't  be the first, but think of the Veterans, their plight and the unfair tag you are inadvertently hanging around their neck. Tanks.


Pretty sure that was absolutely not the intent. Not every off hand comment is an attack.


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## Fishbone Jones (5 Nov 2022)

markppcli said:


> Pretty sure that was absolutely not the intent. Not every off hand comment is an attack.


Thanks for your input. Sorry for trying to debunk the rumours and false fact surrounding our medication and Veterans in general. I'll defer to your expertise.
@CBH99, if you were talking, crack or meth or bath salts , I apologize.


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## markppcli (5 Nov 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Thanks for your input. Sorry for trying to debunk the rumours and false fact surrounding our medication and Veterans in general. I'll defer to your expertise.
> @CBH99, if you were talking, crack or meth or bath salts , I apologize.


You’re welcome, have a great day.


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