# A topic for discussion



## Shabadoo (12 Oct 2000)

How effective are the Reserves?


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## JRMACDONALD (12 Oct 2000)

How effective do you want them to be???  Clarify your question!!


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## Shabadoo (12 Oct 2000)

I‘m just looking for something to discuss. Have any ideas?


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## Michael Dorosh (12 Oct 2000)

I think the Reserves are one of the saddest chapters in Canadian history, but things are changing.  The Tsuu Tina Reserve here in Calgary has finally decided that there is money to be made for themselves - they built a quality golf course, host a casino, and are putting up advertisements on their property along major thoroughfares (in defiance, from what I understand, of certain city laws which don‘t really apply to them).  Personally, I hope the Natives make a zillion dollars through all these initiatives.  Hopefully they can shake off the cycle of dependency, and more of them can move away from the Reserves and into mainstream society.

I think it would be sad for their entire culture to be blotted out, but I don‘t think that necessarily has to happen - other ethnic groups in Canada maintain their heritage without living in isolated blocs (look at the strong Sikh community in Calgary, for example).  The truth is that European settlers took this country over (whether it was fair or not is irrelevant by this point in time) and I think the far-seeing Native leaders have realized that integration into our "Canadian" society is their best hope.

I‘d like to see the Natives retain their property rights, too - and that includes keeping their Reserves and retaining the right to fish their own waters.  But I am always glad to see co-operation between First Nations groups and others, with regards to the utilization of that land.  If the Army never has to deal with an Oka-like situation again, I‘ll be happy.


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## Andyboy (12 Oct 2000)

I‘ll ask a different but related question, how effective is the Molitia?

To go along with this, why does the Molitia exist and is it able fulfil those requirements. If so why, if not why not?

Is Shab also known as Joey Joe Jo Jr.?

Just curious.


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## Master Blaster (12 Oct 2000)

The Molitia has little or no place in the plans of the Regular Rmy and takes a sad second to the worst of the Echelons in the Free World...the National Guard.

At this juncture in our sad and apathetic history, the CF is counting on the assistance of ‘other‘ foreign governments to bail us out and has justifiably reduced our military signature on the planet to a couple of highly motivated but poorly equipped battalions of police officers.

With that in mind, why place any budget dollars in the hands of part time soldiers other than to placate some high rolling well intentioned Alumni with an agenda?

I see no future for anything but lip service for the next four or five years ending with the pathetic wimpers of a few die hards when the end comes with abolition of the Reserves.

Aren‘t Ya Happy Now, Eh?

Dileas Gu Brath


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## JRMACDONALD (12 Oct 2000)

GOOD LEAD, DOROSH ! I HADN‘T THOUGHT OF THAT ARGUMENT!! THE FOLLOWING RESPONSES KEPT THE MOMENTUM UP.


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## echo (12 Oct 2000)

if its goin down,
its goin down with ME IN IT(in a few years ) !!!!!!!!!


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## Michael Dorosh (12 Oct 2000)

Yeah, a little momentum there, but nothing significant to say.

I‘d be interested in your perspective on things - you served as a Regular for many years, and obviously have no shame in coming over to the Reserve side.  As a highly experienced NCO, infanteer, and peacekeeping vet, maybe you can set the loudmouths here straight on the importance of maintaining a Primary Reserve...unless of course you agree with them that we don‘t need one.

I could make the historical argument about the value of the Militia (it was the NPAM that provided the bulk of leadership in our overseas army in WW II) but I think it would be lost on deaf ears...and perhaps deservedly so.  This IS the 2000s.  And maybe that argument doesn‘t work anymore.

But of course, we have been around this argument before...


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## Michael Dorosh (12 Oct 2000)

You know what, I‘ll comment myself.  I think the Militia goes beyond combat capability.  I think Militia soldiers learn citizenship, respect for authority, all that other good stuff they talk about in Boy Scouts and Army Cadets, and maybe some people think it‘s shit...but it‘s not.  Militia soldiers have pride in community, pride in nation, and I think that that is something sorely lacking today - not just in our youth, but in everyone.  

I won‘t suggest we need a Militia as a "make work" project, either, but I‘ll leave the discussion of combat capability to others more...capable...than I of discussing it.  But anyone wearing a Militia uniform is instantly recognizable as someone who has made a commitment to something bigger than himself.

Compare that to spoiled athletes today, who commit to their own paycheques and nothing more.


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## Shabadoo (13 Oct 2000)

Well, MoFo (Andyboy) let‘s get it on. 

I see we have a few interesting opinions out there, so allow me to take a moment and collect my thoughts.


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## Shabadoo (13 Oct 2000)

First a comment for Master Blaster,

It would be very enlightening if yo ucould demonstrate to us where in the VCDS business plan are "Alumni with Agendas" allocated budget dollars. I‘m sure you could probably construe any one of the figures in to that category as you could similarily do the same for any Regular Force Regiment, Mess, Squadron, PERFORMANCE PAY, ...........

Secondly for Michael and JRMACDONALD,

Is is not safe to assume that in the Forces almost every lesson that is taught is done through Drills. This applies to everything from weapons to diversity, from completing a CF98 to a first parade on vehicles. I‘m fairly sure that this is done to ingrain in our minds how to think. As a recruit is systemicaly "Broken down " and then "Rebuilt" to think the way we would like them to think and ultimately perform.  So if we continue to profess that Native Canadians are oppressed and continue to grant them special status do you not think that they themselves will believe that they are oppressed? The last I checked Native Canadians are as free as we are. They themselves chose to isolate themselves and depend on the social safety net. 

Culture is up to the individual to perpetuate, NOT the Crown.


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## JRMACDONALD (13 Oct 2000)

Andy boy -- good follow up( you understood Dorosh‘s gist of the
 jibe)
 Master Blaster--  lack of funding,only ,varies as a matter of political will/ direction. Any military professional would argue against it.
 Mike Dorosh-- DO NOT EVER  call me an infanteer.ARRGGHHH! I AM AN INFANTRYMAN!(AIRBORNE!)( HOO-RAH!)( I have yet to see that "mouseketeer"word in a Dictionary)(If I did ,I would not buy it!)
 Shabadoo-- somewhat confused by your last diatribe. 
HOWEVER:
A. Everything is taught as a drill!( admin process/ tech skill/tactical knowledge, etc) it is only the lack of personal effort that causes the "system" to " slow down" or "fall apart".
B. The "system" does not teach people " how to think" it teaches them "how to react" to a given situation. If they run into a unforseen situation , they will, generally, react,so as to best support their mission.
C. How the aboriginal nations conduct themselves or are directed to conduct themselves( by the government) has NOTHING  to do with this venue or the Canadian Military. 

OUT.


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## Master Blaster (13 Oct 2000)

Shabadoo;  You asked for opinions...I gave you one.

Mr. MacDonald;  You appear to have a reliance on ‘the system‘.  Perhaps you should have a good long look at what the system has determined to train a recruit in the Reserve side of the house.  Would 16 training days (over 8 weekends, every 14 to 21 days) be enough, in your experience, to train a citizen to the Recruit level?  That‘s what the folks in Kingston have decided.  The original training mandate called for 26 training days to be run for the Regular army and that appears to be a reduction from the original 41 that you and I ground through many decades ago.

Personally (from my own experience training citizens to become soldiers Reg and Res) I don‘t believe that 16 training days is an effective time frame.  What is being cut?  Take a look at the training syllabus for the GMT levels and you‘ll be surprised.

The Reserve (and inadvertantly the Regs) are being worn down to a lower level of readiness than the Regular Army of Pre WW2 times.  We were at that time able to have the time to recover, train and deploy to an active operational area...we do not have that ‘time‘ luxury anymore.  We are in the Global enviornment and in the wink of a politicians eye we are placed in areas of operational chaos that only well trained and motivated troops can survive.  Are we to have the same experience as the Belgians and have our soldiers cut to ribbons because of a lack of will?

I digress (with apologies).  I do not see a viable future for the Army in any capacity other than to maintain a mandate of ‘World‘s Policemen‘ established by Lester Pearson.  I deeply regret this and am saddened that with all the experiences of the past, we are too comfortable to realize what can be snatched from us (in the wink of Another politicians‘ eye).

Dileas Gu Brath


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## Shabadoo (13 Oct 2000)

JRMACDONALD,

I agree with all of your comments including Dorash‘s use of that non- word. I admit that my points could have been expressed more clearly. 
The point I was trying to make is that the demise of the Reserves and eventually the Regular Force ( including "Regimental" units )is caused by the lack of a sense of DUTY amongst soldiers. The prevailing attitude amongst todays troops is one of accountability ( in that the government owes the troops ). This is personified by the senior management level of the military and forced on to us the middle managers and junior managers through the QOL programme and the overall CYA attitude amongst soldiers today.
Leaders at all levels are being forced to lead before they actually LEARN themselves. Thereby creating a situation where todays cadre of NCO‘s (junior and senior) are becoming simply learning aids for the troops. Except for a few NCO‘s who take pride in their appearance, behaviour and professionalism (seeking and accepting responsibility) the majority today ( including the "Good Ones" of yesterday) pass on information with an attitude of "why should they(the troops) need to know that if I don‘t? Look how far I got without knowing that. 
It seems that there is a "Fuck it" attitude that keeps growing and is actually being impressed on the troops by NCO‘s who are more concerned with accumalated leave, CTO(in the reserves), and countdown to pension calanders.
We must take it upon ourselves as LEADERS to never give up and to remember that the military cant change unless we do.
Now I haven‘t mentioned the Officer corps for good reason. Its not their job to train the MEN and woMEN. Its OURS
If I still haven‘t been able to get my point accross it may be because I‘ve only slept for a couple of hours this week. As a PROUD reservist, I have to maintain two other jobs as well as my commitment to my unit (5 days of employment this week)on top of 45 hrs of civilian employment. I chose to do this , no one owes me anything ( except respect from my sub ordinates ) .
Maybe next fall after 11 years in the reserves ( including UN tour and diectorate level staff experience ) I might have enough money and time to go to school and earn some retirement income. I hope school will fit in to my career as a reservist. We‘ll see


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## JRMACDONALD (13 Oct 2000)

It appears that this discourse is, finally, reaching thelevel, it should have started at. Allow me to peruse your statements, so as to present viewpoints, which don‘t appear to ramble. I will attempt to reply , shortly.


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## JRMACDONALD (13 Oct 2000)

Here goes:
Master Blaster- Yes, I still have faith in the system. I would be an embittered soul, after 28 years (24 years as a NCO, ResF/ RegF)in it, not to. I have more than a passing knowledge of the changes in training plans( TP) and, consequently,the negative effect on soldiers. These reductions in training time are a result of the CF reaction to ever decreasing budget.We are,only, reacting to our political masters will/direction. No NCO ,I know of,embraces it, whole heartedly.  I feel the CF is suffering from a generation of senior leaders, who have embraced ,so readily,  " management principles" and political expediancy, they have forgotten the essence of  leadership is INTEGRITY! (How can you  support something you don‘t live by.( Leadership  by example) Re: your comment on Belgians( Rwanda, I assume) I feel, unfortunately, that given our current direction( by persons lacking in character, political and military) , some CDN sub-unit, is going to experience their own" Isandlwhana", before we come to terms with it.( then watch the finger pointing and breast beating!) I can‘t get colonels+ generals to change their attitudes, I just try to make those cpl/ptes( hopefully,some NCOs+ Officers) the best they can be.
Shabadoo--RE: "lack of sense of duty"-- I don‘t see this at the junior levels going up, but more increasing, a lack of loyalty to subordinates by superiors( leadership by example, again!) The " feel good " programs  of QOL,   the renewed focus on "Army Ethos" are , in my mind, nothing more than "action plans" ( management principles, again!) to disguise a serious fault in senior leadership( it is not the 2lts and cpl/ptes who are causing / perpetuating the problems!) RE: " fuck it attitude"-- yes , it is out there. ( allowed it to occur in myself, a few times!!)( hard not to , when you see the same recurring situations/ problems that you provide time proven advice/ solutions to, only to see it thrown by the wayside, because it did not originate from a superior rank) I was fortunate to have a very fine PL WO ( many years ago) teach me a simple lesson.( without extras!!) Do not worry about influencing those two/ three /four levels above you, put your soul into making the people below you the best, you possibly can.( even if you improve only one person, you are having a positive effect on the system.  I will shut up now ,as I see some detrius moving rapidly towards a fan.


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## Mud Crawler (14 Oct 2000)

I totaly agree with you JRMACDONALD.In essence, ppl above are there only for a limited time and influencing those who will be our military leaders later, and making them understand whats wrong now, might give us a chance to fix things, even if it‘s at longer term.

I understand you are an NCO and I‘m wondering if you could give me some advice cause i want to join the CF as an officer.Maybe it‘s your time to influence someone for the positive side


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## Mud Crawler (14 Oct 2000)

Oh! and is my writing better now?


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## RCA (15 Oct 2000)

To clear up one misconception. The QL2 (old GMT) is actully 42 days long, the 16 days (12 in fact)is only Pt 1. The problem with the crse is the focus has shifted from making a warrior to making a soldier (or airman or sailor - it is a total force [there‘s that phrase]designed in St Jean for the entire Armed Forces.) Therefore greater time is spent on paperwork (eg supply system, leave passes etc) then weapons trg and fd work which is now passed on to the QL3 level. So now we cget a recruit that we can‘ use in the field until he mis Trades qual. More later
to Mud Baster, listen to your NCOs, they have the voice of experience and they are not out to screw you unless you give them cause. You give overall direction, but it is us who are tasked to impliment it. We‘ll let you do your job as long as you let us do ours.We are loyal to those we respect and support us.

Ubique


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## Mud Crawler (15 Oct 2000)

I read something on this site that said:An officer as duty to be his men‘s champion. I agree with that , if a NCO can‘t thrust his officer who leads him into combat, he might as well desert army or i don‘t know.My father also said to me: Be good to your men because you command them, but in the end they are the ones who save your life.


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## jimiscanadian99 (15 Oct 2000)

gentelmen: In my opinion, an officer will get a lot more respect from his troops if he puts their welfare ahead of his own. This may mean that he gets a cold meal, because he made sure the troops ate before he did, or he may still be out in the rain making sure that all positions are well sighted, and the men are properly  informed for the night‘s  operations, and patrols. It may also mean that he goes to bat for a soldier who has gotten himself in trouble outside of duty hours, and needs to be "advised" to get his act together, but does not need to be put on a charge. The best officers have learned that they may command, and promulgate orders, but the real power lies with the NCO‘s, and co-operation is much better than confrontation, anyday. The final point I will make is that the "Good" officers in my past are still memorable, but the rest are dim memories. JIM


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## the patriot (15 Oct 2000)

Here is an anecdote that all officers should live by:

The safety, honour & welfare of your country comes first, always & every time.

The honour, welfare & comfort of the men you command come next.

Your own ease, comfort & safety come last, always & every time.

-the patriot-


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## Mud Crawler (16 Oct 2000)

Thx
I know I‘d never ask any of my men to do something i wouldn‘t do, cuz its too dangerous or anything.I think id rather do it myself


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## RCA (16 Oct 2000)

Be careful with that last one. You are a leader and by definition you MUST be able to motivate your people to do things they might not be necessarly do in normal circumstances. (This is also an NCOs job, but he is also backing you up.) All your men need is that they know that you are not asking them to do something that  you wouln‘t do. You must be able to know when to get your hands dirty and when to stand back and observe. In battle your job is to lead and not get caught so your to close to infuece other to those beside you. Can‘t see the forest but for the trees.

Ubique


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## JRMACDONALD (16 Oct 2000)

Apoligize for my absence,just spent a wonderful wknd, in the bush, doing Infantry stuff, with a great bunch of Res F troops! Their low level of knowledge/ experience, was greatly offset by their willing to learn, personal drive and motivation. It was tiring but enjoyable ( I was re motivated by their example!)

RCA- re: your comment to Mud crawler on NCOs. ON TARGET! FIRE FOR EFFECT!  re- your last post, on leadership- ditto!

the patriot- remember the old" mission/troops/self?"

Mud Crawler-  good effort,always strive to improve your command and use of the language( How can you get people to do the job , if they don‘t understand you!?) ( leave the "bar talk/ language" ie "swearing" for mess debates, or when you really need it!)  "never order the troops to do , what you won‘t do" -- like RCA says that is a hard one, sometimes you have to. It seems you are developing a good understanding of Leadership by Example. GOOD LAD!


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## Andyboy (16 Oct 2000)

Having just returned from a weekend ex myself I have a couple of points for anyone who wants to listen.

First there seems to be a trend towards ignoring the advice/experience of NCOs on training.

There seems to be a trend on the part of Junior officers in ignoring their own jobs while trying to do that of their senior NCOs.

Any comments?

On another somewhat unrelated topic how are we going to improve the knowledge base of the CPL/Pte and junior NCOs under the current budget/doctrinal restraints?


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## Shabadoo (16 Oct 2000)

Well if it isn‘t Andyboy.


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## pat (16 Oct 2000)

Well it is a combanation of short comings that will bring down the moltia. The large magority of the regular force JR NCM‘s were from the res world. One part is lack of funding. The res world has to compete with the cadet world. The reserves should not be grouped with the cadets, and vice a versa. As for the are res there is no function or clear roll. Thus traing is non - exsitanant, or is geered to what is fun and will keep pepole in the unit. The navy res is mandated to provided harbour security and man the coastal defence ships. The air res actualy have SQN‘s with aircraft. Thier courese are the same as the reg force and thier training aand equpment os the same as their counter parts. In the army res restructureing they are looking to cut down on the amount of time to teach a course to pump out the numbers. The teaching is left to the area commander to make sure that the national standards are meet. (let‘s be serious). The army reserves are just starting to be issued the same kit as the reg force. Why were they ever denied that in the first place. Why were they denied the same modern equipment as the reg force. Ex. Every reg solider in a field unit is issued a gas mask as part as thier webbing. Most res units only have a hand full to go around. Lastly what is the role of the army res. Agent the reg force. That is a perty brode role. Agument them as a hole brigade? A sub unit? or just a pool of pepole when need. If it‘s just a pool to draw on, why are they takeing contractors over on the next rotto? to give the reg force a brake. Isn‘t that what the army res is for???


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## Mud Crawler (17 Oct 2000)

I think I found someone who writes worse than I do!
just kidding pal
Alright, I think I get the point on "I wouldn‘t order my...bla bla bla".The thing is, in my opinion, an officer always has to put the lives of his men in the balance and weigh what they are worth, as to wether filling that or that mission abjective was really worth loosing 2 men and injuring 3.Of course, the ultimate objective is to NOT loose a life, but, sadly, I learned from personnal experience that nothing ever goes acording to plans.Yep, i screwed sometimes in life and i saw poeple screw!

About that thing on not listening to NCOs who got more experience than I, i think that would be dumb.It would be like not listening to your instructors in basic training except you command him.

Thank you all for your answers,I‘ll preciously keep them in mind!


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## bossi (17 Oct 2000)

To answer the "original" question ("how effective is the Militia"):

During the Ice Storm 40 per cent of forces deployed in Ontario were reservists (2,000 out of 5,000) - not too shabby.

Turning now to "effectiveness", it‘s the old story - it‘s a poor craftsman who blames his tools (in other words, I‘m sick and tired of hearing complaints from one component slagging off the other.  I‘d much rather hear and see good examples being set for each other, if cooperation is too much to ask ...)

Dileas Gu Brath
M.A. Bossi, Esquire


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