# The way JUNIOR--junior NCM‘s are treated



## squeela1984 (3 Dec 2003)

For Privates and some corporals!
I don‘t experience it too much, but I see pte‘s being treated like idiots when they arrive to new units.  When you complete your QL3 course, you only know so much and with time you get used to your new unit and learn more.  The unit can only expect so much from you.  If you don‘t know how to do something (because you weren‘t taught), you shouldn‘t have a MCpl or anyone else yell at you, they should take the time to show you how it‘s done.  I‘m not complaining, but I have lots of friends telling me how their new units are treating them, and it shouldn‘t be that way.  You‘re not gonna wanna learn if someone is yelling in your face, but rather they should teach you.  BUT there are good units out there that DO take the time to teach and that‘s good.


----------



## stukirkpatrick (3 Dec 2003)

I wish I was QL3 qualified...   :crybaby:   

Having completed my BMQ/SQ this summer, I can safely say that my unit is quite understanding of items which new members do not have experience in, and whatever knowledge is lacking is soon explained in detail...sure there is the occasional yelling, but hey...its the army    

The real shock was when I discovered I knew more about our friend "Carl G" than some corperals in my unit, because it is a recent addition to basic training, even if it is an old-school piece of kit    :rocket:


----------



## squeela1984 (3 Dec 2003)

Of course I expect yelling...as should others.
But sometimes I hear unnecessary yelling where I feel like saying "Calm down and explain it."
BMQ/SQ?? Sucks to be you...and I learned about the Carl G too...way back in jan 2002...when i did LET (Land Environmental Training).  Keep your chin up.  What trade are you going for?
---->Kirkpatrick


----------



## squeela1984 (3 Dec 2003)

oh and if you‘re in thunderbay...do you know CPL/MCPL Maggrah?


----------



## stukirkpatrick (3 Dec 2003)

I‘m in the LSSR, so infantry.  Therefore the SQ has me moooostly trained, and I am not left out of any of the unit exercises/ training.   :warstory:   

Theres a Cpl Maggrah in 18 svc battalion, maybe thats him.


----------



## elscotto937 (4 Dec 2003)

Sheila, maybe the yelling is the result of not knowing the job? Supervisors may be frustrated and lack knowledge wrt the changes and amagamation of your trade. Just an idea. But your job requires alot of self-learning, you can help yourself alot by prempting the yelling. Find a Cpl that you can learn from and allow him/her to teach you the specifics of the equipment. Don‘t give them the reason to yell. But do agree that showing someone how to do something the first time is neccessary. After that, a soldier may need some motivation to learn the proceedure that they have been shown....


----------



## squeela1984 (4 Dec 2003)

true that gunner!!
I don‘t have the problem I just see others having a difficult sometimes and they talk to me about it, and I try to help them.  Hey KIRKPATRICK...I know Cpl Maggrah, he‘s a VTECH....soon to be MCpl


----------



## Ex-Dragoon (4 Dec 2003)

From my experience both in the navy and the army newly graduated privates/ordinary seamen come in with the attitude and I have seen it time and time again. I had an OS tell me one time I didn‘t outrank him at all I was just more senior to him. That poor kid got jacked up by the Cox‘n for over an hour, as he was standing right behind him. A lot of us at one point used to go out of our way to help new people coming into our units its no longer done because all but 1 or 2 don‘t have this "chip" until you prove otherwise or right away expect it. Its not fair but your predecessors brought it upon themselves and consequently down on you.


----------



## squeela1984 (4 Dec 2003)

Yes ex-dragoon, that‘s so true.  And I don‘t say anything to those kind of people, cause it doesn‘t do any good when they already have that attitude.  Those kind of people need to be straightened out, but good ppl willing to learn like myself, don‘t deserve it


----------



## Ex-Dragoon (4 Dec 2003)

I agree shelia..maybe its up to people like you to change their outlook before they come to a unit. Maybe then you will see our outlook on new people change as well.


----------



## twohig (4 Dec 2003)

In my experience you realy don‘t have to yell, people shut down.  I had a Sgt who was easy going but when he got mad he would pull you aside and almost whisper, you coul feel the anger and in turn you would be afraid.  I use that all the time, I normaly don‘t yell (exept when a whole group messes up), I stay relaxed, but piss me off and we‘ll have a chat off to the side.  The thing is if your competent people will notice and will calme down, if they don‘t talk to your supervisor or ask to speak to their supervisor.  Some of these people may not realise that they‘re upseting people, try to sort it out on the lower levels.


----------



## Slim (4 Dec 2003)

Leadership is deffinitely an art! I have experienced both good and bad in the CF...Yelling does not work really, not if you want the troopies to respect you at all. 

Coming to the reserves from the regs was also difficult as the reserves operate quite differently and it may be the same army but they are very much worlds apart.

Ex-dragoon. How do you find it in the navy after being in Pet with the Armoured Corps?
   :warstory:


----------



## Ex-Dragoon (4 Dec 2003)

Honestly Slim there were a couple of the  POs  that tried hard to get me busted to AB cause in their eyes I did not "earn" my hooks. My CO who earned his jump wings set them straight on what a soldier actually did.


----------



## combat_medic (5 Dec 2003)

A good leader should accept honest mistakes, once. However, with all the overhauling and restructuring of the training system, there‘s all sorts of discrepancies in qualifications. One NCO may assume you know something when you don‘t, and may give you $hit for it. If he‘s busting your balls for an honest mistake, or something you haven‘t been trained in, then it‘s his fault and not yours. But give it some time, and adjustments and things will get better.

However, as a new private, you‘re going to get yelled at no matter what; there‘s no way around that!


----------



## Infanteer (5 Dec 2003)

Would you like some cheese with that whine?

God, I have never seen more pathetic moaning, now I figured out where SHARP came from.  It isn‘t the job of your superiors to be nice to you, and they are not helping you by doing such.  You think the senior troopies are ****s, just think about how these guys will treat you if they get ahold of you.


----------



## Infanteer (5 Dec 2003)

P.S.

If you really think the NCO‘s in your unit don‘t know what they are doing, tell your Sergeant Major...I‘m sure he would be delighted to sort you out.


----------



## Garry (5 Dec 2003)

Bwhahahahahahahahaha......sniff.....

Bwhahahahahahahahahaha....chuckle........ahhhhhh.

...BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA......

Bwhahahahahaaaaaaaaaaa..............sniff...sniff..

Ok, I‘m fine now....

Bwhahahahahahahahahahahaha...


----------



## Slim (5 Dec 2003)

"Does this mean we can‘t be friends"
                Doc Holiday from Tombstone

Infanteer
I agree and dissagree. Soldiers must be tough...no question. However indescriminate yelling and abuse of troops can quickly destroy a unit.
If you ever get to play with any special operations types ask them why they operate so differently during the decision making process. They have realized that if you treat a man ( or woman) well they will kill themselves to do a good job and it will be far easier to get results when you do have to put down your foot.
Just thoughts.

Garry
I don‘t know where you got that but F$*K I laughed...good to keep the moral up!!


----------



## Garry (5 Dec 2003)

Slim,

In my experience, you just don‘t find people abusing the Troops- at least not for long. 

I‘ve seen Snr NCO‘s pound the hail out of one of their own- he was abusing the Troops.

I‘ve seen the Troops pound the Hail out of one of their CSM‘s (anyone remember "Shovelface?)- he was abusing the Troops.

I could go on, but suffice it to say that we aren‘t kids, nor pack animals, nor drudges- we‘re soldiers. If you can‘t stand up for yourselves, then how can you stand up for the country?

FWIW- I have never been yelled at- and that includes basic. Been given hail lots- and I suppose voices have ben raised, but never have I had to stand there while someone hurled invectives at me- good thing, too.   

Cheers-Garry


----------



## Michael Dorosh (5 Dec 2003)

The only ones I‘ve seen doing any yelling in the last 16 years were the ones who didn‘t know the first thing about leadership.  I‘ve seen plenty of mad NCOs and officers, but the ones worth their salt never felt the need to yell.

We‘re lucky to be in an Army with SHARP training, frankly; we don‘t have to put up with the morons who think decibels=respect.  I can recall the last time I‘ve made a boneheaded decision, and can certainly recall the number of times I‘ve repeated them (very few), but I can‘t honestly recall any time I‘ve been yelled at.


----------



## elscotto937 (6 Dec 2003)

I have raised my voice once, I was very junior and very angry. Since then I can honestly say that I have not had any problems getting things done. I have been yelled at, and it only motivated me to a certain extent (enough so I didn‘t get yelled at again). However, explaining things to me in a rational manner has had a better effect. But it is up to the leader to determine the method of motivation that you use, and this should be based on the subordinates. I have seen soldiers that only react to be told to do things in a very direct manner.
Infanteer, here‘s a question are we in the same army? Because in my army it‘s not how much you yell it‘s strictly how you accomplish the mission. Dorosh is absolutely correct SHARP training was necessary because we wanted an army were you (who ever you were) could be fairly judged on your accomplishments, not some racial slurs that some morons learned on TV... OK I‘m on a rant...But seriously, Infanteer how long were you in the Army before the Sharp program came out, did you find it better with respect to the things I mentioned above?


----------



## Slim (6 Dec 2003)

> Originally posted by Garry:
> [qb] Slim,
> 
> In my experience, you just don‘t find people abusing the Troops- at least not for long.
> ...


Hey Garry
I‘ve also been pretty lucky and had some really excellent leadership during my "time in". 
Unfortunately I‘ve, on occasion, worked with some less than stellar NCO‘s ( junior to be sure) and have had them make life pretty difficult on occasion.
I‘m not wining...I know some situations call for harshness...
...Fortunately the good ones far outway the bad ones!
Cheers all.


----------



## Infanteer (6 Dec 2003)

Scott937,
Look at the people who are complaining on this thread.  Sir, if you honestly believe this is how recruits should be handled (with kiddie gloves), than maybe we are in a different army.

Recruit Training Video 

To anyone who thinks they are getting hammered on, adopt this motto.

FIDO- "Fu*k it, drive on", it‘ll serve you alot better than "Fu*k it, my feelings are hurt" in the long run


----------



## Jarnhamar (7 Dec 2003)

When i have to yell it‘s because who ever i‘m in charge of is tired, hungery, wants to sleep and isn‘t thinking at their best. If you ask them to do something when things are hectic they will look around and try to figure out whats going on and mess themselves up. When I yell at them they, because they are trained soldiers, react to the words of command and do what i tell them to without thinking about it very much.

Thats not to be confused with the wimps whom because they don‘t have confidence in their ability to inspire try and frighten. If theres one thing i can‘t stand it‘s "leaders" who go into detail about how great they are or talk about how tough they are and they will do this or do that if someone doesn‘t listen.


----------



## cheechue (8 Dec 2003)

> if you honestly believe this is how recruits should be handled (with kiddie gloves), than maybe we are in a different army.


But it is a different army...things have changed so drastically in the last decade.


----------



## Infanteer (8 Dec 2003)

> But it is a different army...things have changed so drastically in the last decade.


But is it for the good?  We are in an army that, unlike our closest allies, hasn‘t been in major combat operations since 1953.  
Since than our biggest enemy has been ourselves, and I‘m worried that the next time the flag drops, we again may have to reinvent the wheel at the cost of soldiers blood.


----------



## gate_guard (8 Dec 2003)

In my opinion, yelling at troops has a time and place. Some NCOs use it a lot to great effect, others have a different leadership style (the silent, deadly type). In both cases, there was no less respect on my part for either NCO. Sheila Molina, your attitude is exactly what the NCOs don‘t want. Sure, you may know a little more about something based on your life experience or know the Carl G‘s characteristics cause you just finished your wpn‘s course. The last thing a section needs is someone second guessing the leadership though. The reason for yelling, and other forms of "I‘m the head honcho, shut up" style of leadership is to inform you who‘s boss. That‘s the reason for drill, to get you to react to the word of command in adverse situations. Not to sit there and think "Well jeez, he didn‘t have to yell so loud." If your NCOs are drilling you on stuff you don‘t know and them yelling at you is "hurting your feelings", how do you think it‘ll feel in the same circumstances but in a combat situation? I pray that you won‘t just sit there saying "Well they never taught me this so..." The army‘s not fair, life‘s not fair, and war is definitely not fair.

Cheechue, you‘re right, this is a new army, an army full of kids who have been coddled by their parents. If a little yelling gets under their skin, they shouldn‘t be in the military. The army may be changing, but the horrors of combat never do and God help us if we send a battalion of touchy feely, new age troops who have never been yelled at to the line. Our job is a nasty business and sometimes calls for nasty words. Those kiddie gloves that Infanteer‘s talking about are genuine CF issue, and I keep them in a special place where I keep all me useless kit.

One of the best pieces of advice I‘ve heard before QL2, given to me by a medic no less, was "When they yell at you, extract the one or two pieces of information that you need to do your job, then do it. The fact that they‘re yelling at you means do it NOW."


----------



## dhan74 (8 Dec 2003)

Wow Infanteer, is that how basic training is now in the CF? Group, if you thought yelling was excessive in the CF, try basic in the US Marine Corps, LOL!  SIR YES SIR!  

You gotta admit, you can definately motivate an individual to move faster with a very loud and aggressive voice.  However, one of the most important leadership traits taught to Marines is TACT.  An effective leader should always praise in public and criticize in private.


----------



## Infanteer (8 Dec 2003)

> You gotta admit, you can definately motivate an individual to move faster with a very loud and aggressive voice. However, one of the most important leadership traits taught to Marines is TACT. An effective leader should always praise in public and criticize in private.


No disagreement here, I always looked at it like this.

_11. There is a salient difference between profanity and obscenity; while a leader employs profanity (tempered with discretion), he never uses obscenities_


----------



## Bellman (8 Dec 2003)

I‘m with Gate_Guard on this one. I‘m doing basic right now and when I‘m tired I need to be able to hear the word of command. I don‘t mind being yelled at, especially when the converse is not hearing the word of command and messing up.


----------



## Bellman (8 Dec 2003)

I‘m with Gate_Guard on this one. I‘m doing basic right now and when I‘m tired I need to be able to hear the word of command. I don‘t mind being yelled at, especially when the converse is not hearing the word of command and messing up.


----------



## Slim (8 Dec 2003)

> Originally posted by gate_guard:
> [qb]
> "When they yell at you, extract the one or two pieces of information that you need to do your job, then do it. The fact that they‘re yelling at you means do it NOW." [/qb]


This is exactly the mindset that soldiers should have! Even if you know that your knowledge of a piece of kit or a given situation is better or more recent, piping up to the NCO about it whether in front of the group or in private will not elevate you in anyones eyes...And, I hate to say it, but being a female will probably make it worse! They‘ll just think your another girl trying to "show up the boys!"


----------



## OLD SCHOOL (12 Dec 2003)

Hmmmm... Yelling?

In the U.K out for a tour of the hills,a soldier falls out with leg cramps. Much yelling from the SGT. Much swearing from the SGT. No movement on the soldiers part. Hmmmm... I noticed rapid movement and a new gung ho drive the body mentality after the SGT. put the boots to his gut.
Wow, was that ever effective. After seeing that, I was one fast Canadian. Would have loved to have used that on a few malingering @#$#@& back home.

Ahhh, the old days.

Excuse me Warrant, could you keep your voice down?
LMFAO! NEVER happened,and when we are taking fire you will hear me and you will move as directed.   

Some people need to just join the Coast Guard and save us the trouble.  :crybaby:


----------



## elscotto937 (12 Dec 2003)

Old School, that is definately a motivation tool.

Let me clarify things, yelling, as I have mentioned previously, is NOT the act of telling soldiers in a direct and concise manner to accomplish a task with a level of volume to be heard (i.e. so that the subordinate does not have to stuggle to hear). The yelling that I‘m talking about entails threats, verbal abuse, and degradation (in some form or another). One axiom that I like to think about is this "When you are not under fire and you have the time, take suggestions on accomplishing the mission and make an informed decision, your subordinates will feel that they have had thier suggestions heard and will therefore have confidence in you that you have weighed all the options. Then they will have no hesitation to follow your orders under contact as they trust you that you have made the informed decision. " An interesting suggestion, I can‘t say that I always follow it. Now, I may have to change my opinion as my Tech was reading over my shoulder and he doesn‘t necessarily agree.


----------



## Erborn (12 Dec 2003)

You don‘t like the yelling
Well thats to damm bad
If you wanted to hear yelling the 1st BatPPCLI 1951 was the place .It was called a Jr.NCO Course then.
You can lead by fear or you can lead by example.

BobbyC


----------



## squeela1984 (25 Aug 2004)

yeah i'm not complaining for myself here gentlemen!!  I do just fine in the military.  I was saying for the benefits of others who were being yelled at in an inappropriate way (i.e harrassment,and degrading words.)  When I say harrassment I don't mean disciplinary yelling (your boots aren't shiny or do up your buttons).  That's all apart of anywhere you go.  And the WO is definitely old school, that's all I'm saying.
I don't know who commented on being a female is probably worse cause i'm just trying to show up the guys, but that's so not true.  The fact is, most females tend to be "not-as-up" as the guys, in respect to PT or leadership.  And in saying that we have to try harder so guys don't feel that women are being treated like babies or coddled.  I've seen it.  "Oh she's a girl, she doesn't have to try as hard."  Whatever the guys wanna think is their perogative but we are in the same military.  And yes promote in public criticize in private.  There's nothing I hate more than when I see some MCpl giving someone shit or making fun of them in a big crowd so he looks cool.  Seen it!!
I love the military-hence why I signed my 2nd BE.


----------



## Infanteer (25 Aug 2004)

If you didn't realize it, we stopped talking about this half a year ago....


----------



## mclipper (25 Aug 2004)

sheila molina said:
			
		

> yeah i'm not complaining for myself here gentlemen!!   I do just fine in the military.   I was saying for the benefits of others who were being yelled at in an inappropriate way (i.e harrassment,and degrading words.)   When I say harrassment I don't mean disciplinary yelling (your boots aren't shiny or do up your buttons).   That's all apart of anywhere you go.   And the WO is definitely old school, that's all I'm saying.
> 
> 
> Harrassment is another issue all together.  If someone is genuinely being harrassed.....they will be dealt with.  Discipline is not harrassment.  I have seen MANY cases within the last 10 years where some Pte gets jacked up (because they actually did screw up) and they start screaming harrassment.  Another of my favorites is the person who doesn't get what he/she wants....them screams harrassment!  People really need to stop throwing around words like harrassment and racism when it's really discipline.


----------



## CdnGalaGal (25 Aug 2004)

Hmm... Why were you asking about Maggrah?


----------



## Fusaki (25 Aug 2004)

> I was saying for the benefits of others who were being yelled at in an inappropriate way (i.e harrassment,and degrading words.)  When I say harrassment I don't mean disciplinary yelling (your boots aren't shiny or do up your buttons).  That's all apart of anywhere you go.



Geez... I've taken my share of scream burns, some of them justified and others I felt I didn't deserve. But I've moved on, because there are more important things to worry about. When something really intense is going on, you need to be able to pick up the right information and filter out the rest. Not shut'er down and mope around because someone hurt your feelings. This is a serious business, and you want people who can - at the very least - keep on moving after after you've hurt their ego. (ummmm... yeah, what gate_guard said)


----------



## CdnGalaGal (26 Aug 2004)

I'd check out this thread...

It's "Don't Let This Happen" in Military Related by Jungle.


----------



## FastEddy (29 Aug 2004)

BobbyC said:
			
		

> You don't like the yelling
> Well thats to damm bad
> If you wanted to hear yelling the 1st BatPPCLI 1951 was the place .It was called a Jr.NCO Course then.
> You can lead by fear or you can lead by example.
> ...


----------



## winchable (29 Aug 2004)

Oh how I long for the days of the Spartan-warrior class....


I'm thinking Infanteer will back me on this one.


----------



## Armour (4 Sep 2004)

Yelling has it place , when a command or task is yelled as others have said it means RIGHT NOW!!!!  unfortunately some have been coddled and rarely ever yelled at when a situation develops and the yelling starts the just give this lost blank look. I've seen it first hand and seen the difference between combat arm trades and support trades , No disrespect to then but it's the nature of the job. Being in Armour and having commands and turret drill yelled all the time it just becomes a second nature to hear and react.

It was in Bosnia on more than one occasion you could see the difference in reaction. When I was in Visioko and and rocket hit our building when the yelling started to take cover and stand too, I saw combat arms guy grabbing their rifle and kit even though they were not part of the defencive position ,while on more than one occasion support trades had to be told and directed to get in to the shelters and grab their helmets and protective vest.  It was a night and day difference in their reactions.    

I saw the same thing when a drive by at the front gate. There was even one Log Cpl that was ticked off that she was yelled at and pushed behind cover. even went so far as after the incident to tell the Tpr, there was no need to yell.   

Take it or leave it,  getting yelled at to carry out a command I'll take my chances of having a tougher louder experience and having it as a normal course of communication when needed then having a bewilder WTF is he yelling for reaction.


----------



## commando_wolf63 (4 Sep 2004)

Sheila Molina what's your beef?? Yelling or being yelled at has it's time and place like WO I guess you can say I'm old school. If my instructors yelled at me it was for a good reason. FYI I'm a female and in my units both Reserve and Regs females were treated no different from the males we were all exected to carry our own weight. Armour I guess since my reserve BMT/GMT was done by an Infantry unit taught me to react like combat arms. When the S**t hit the fan we moved. If someone had to push me behind cover I wouldn't have been whining about it I'd have been thankful that someone was abit quicker than I was.  I ask this if you dont like being yelled at when it comes to life or death why are you in the Military?


----------



## Slim (4 Sep 2004)

There is a HUGE difference between yelling to achieve volume or urgency and yelling to accomplish a task, or in everyday situations.(administrative)

If a soldier is being professional  in his duties, manners and deportment then there is no need to be abusive and condescending toward him.

If there is a problem with the soldier that requires a (verbal) swift kick in the @ss then that is very different.

Someone once told me that there are no bad soldiers, only bad leaders. I don't completely agree with that but I do believe it has a grain or two of truth to it.

Soldiers need to be tough and have the ability to "shrug off" situations that would have any normal civvie reaching for his complaint book. That being said, there is no requirement to intentionally abuse or belittle members of the CF if they are preforming to the standard.

Slim


----------



## Jarnhamar (4 Sep 2004)

Theres always a time for yelling. Like was mentioned, during a highstress enviroment someone needs to yell to,
a. make themselves heard
b. let people know whos in command
c. let those your speaking to know your not just making a suggestion

In an admin/discipline situation i've always found it MUCH more intimidating when someone takes me aside and quietly scolds me instead of making me stand at attention and scream at me infront of everyone.  (I CAN see how this will be effective when dealing with a new soldier however).

I've seen a lot of bad leaders try to use their rank or how loud they are to scare and intimidate troops (which often see right through it)  yet i've seen very good leaders quietly tell a troop to "stop being an idiot" and it hit the troop like a brick.


----------



## Michael Dorosh (4 Sep 2004)

commando_wolf63 said:
			
		

> Sheila Molina what's your beef?? Yelling or being yelled at has it's time and place like WO I guess you can say I'm old school. If my instructors yelled at me it was for a good reason. FYI I'm a female and in my units both Reserve and Regs females were treated no different from the males we were all exected to carry our own weight. Armour I guess since my reserve BMT/GMT was done by an Infantry unit taught me to react like combat arms. When the S**t hit the fan we moved. If someone had to push me behind cover I wouldn't have been whining about it I'd have been thankful that someone was abit quicker than I was.  I ask this if you dont like being yelled at when it comes to life or death why are you in the Military?



EDIT - I see Ghost beat me to it, but anyway - 

Oh come on guys, there ARE times when yelling is used by poor NCOs as a crutch.  I remember a universally disliked NCO in my unit pulling up to the vehicle compound one day.  We had at least ten minutes to kill and he wanted me to go see if the gate was locked.  What does this NCO do?  He reinforces his flinch-meister status by saying, "go check the fence."  Fine enough, then he decided to bellow at the top of his lungs  *RRRUUUNNNNN!!!!!!*   He looked like a first prize moron, mainly because the fence was only 50 feet away.  He wasn't exactly a PT king himself, oddly enough.   Like I said, we were in no rush.  I fought the urge to give him the deer in the headlights look DELIBERATELY, as if to say "what are you, stupid?", and did my best half-assed trot to the fence. 

Whatever.  He got very little extra effort out of me and at the same time cemented the idea that he was semi-retarded.

So, no, yelling isn't aways the best option.

Even General Patton knew that.  During his early days as a junior officer, he once pulled his entire cavalry platoon aside and apologized for yelling at one of the men.  He had said "run, damn you" instead of "run, damn it" and so he apologized, much to the surprise of his regular Army platoon.

Anyway, I'm not saying yelling is bad or not to yell, just emphasizing that it is not 100 percent necessary and a good leader will have to discern the good times to do it from the bad.  All part of the skills that go into the art of leadership.


----------



## Slim (4 Sep 2004)

Thanks Mike

My thoughts exactly, just written better 

Slim


----------



## childs56 (6 Sep 2004)

yelling, we always yelled in the Artillery thats the only way to be heard cause we are all deaf. as for yelling at new recruits it has its time and place if any one new SGT Major Sandall (Baggy Sandal) then you new that yelling  was not in his nature but the man would put the fear of god into you by just his asking you in a quite tone how are you doing today Gunner or Bdr or Mbdr.The best leaders yell when need to and explain when need to.  if you think telling all the time is the way to train and work with your troops then maybe you should think again. I like how the US trains it soldiers as explained above in a previous reply. as for all of the hard core individuals on here that like yell all the time I bet when you were just a private you hated it the most and dreaded the one NCO who yelled the most.How much did you learn from that individual I bet not alot other then they were an A$$ hole. Did it make you a better soldier? I dont know, but if your opinion of training is yelling all the time then I am in the wrong Military. As for any of the new troops comming up threw the ranks and are complaining about being yelled at well learn listen and extract the info that is being given you. good bad or ugly. You are now in a system that trains on killing people from the office clerk to the sailor to the airforce mechanic. sometimes we all forget this and we hide behind our trades that dont directly get our hands bloodied. yelling is an art of influencing human behaviour, as is talking in a calm clear and concise voice, as in influencing human behaviour is the art of leadership, we must look listen and learn. If you dont like to be yelled at then quit, if all you do is yell then you to must quit.


----------



## Pugnacious (6 Sep 2004)

Che wrote: 
"Oh how I long for the days of the Spartan-warrior class....
I'm thinking Infanteer will back me on this one."

P: True Spartans were the best at what they did, and prob' still better then even most around today, but keep in mind they fought well together largely in part because they  feared loosing face , and acting a coward in front of a fellow "LOVER".

Not the sort of 'backing' I need thanx. LOL! ;D

Back to topic... I have a relative that made Lt Col in the Airborne way back in the old days of the cold war, and he did not raise his voice without good cause, and was very much admired, and respected by the men under his command.  But then again as he says that it was a different Army in his day.

He also said Bullies eventualy get what is coming to them one way or the other.  
He gave many fine examples that I can't mention here.

For me I'd rather follow in his footsteps, and be respected by my men and then feared by my enemies.

Cheers!
P.


----------



## Jarnhamar (6 Sep 2004)

Spartans may have been the best but they also let their society erode because they wouldn't change with the times.



> and acting a coward in front of a fellow "LOVER".


I thought the term lover was a translation given to the childs mentor/teacher.


I think the same idea holds true today.  To most guys i know, myself included, getting extras or even charged is nothing compared to loosing face with your platoon or company.


----------



## Pugnacious (7 Sep 2004)

"I thought the term lover was a translation given to the child's mentor/teacher."

Yes and double yes, Spartan studies goes into great detail on the rigid codes of conduct for its warrior class, and such.
Marriage to a woman was for children only, the woman had to dress in men's garb, and hide her femininity as much as possible on the honeymoon night, after the husband went straight back to the barracks to be with his men as much as possible.

Lots have been written on this from a variety of reliable sources.
The Athenians also had a similar group with similar beliefs...who's name escapes me.

Also in Ancient Greek sociaty it was acceptable practice for the teacher to have "relations" with the students...male or female, but it seems that male was the preference.  Langauge often follows culture.

And yes many scholars point to the eroding of their culture to their non-bending ways...many cultures have gone extinct from lack of flexibility...most notable the Roman Empire which came after the Greek Empire.  We should pay attention to what history is saying.

Both empires where living in harsh brutal times, and trained equaly harsh brutal militaries, with harsh brutal results.
But history echos what mom always said, that no matter how big you are there is always someone bigger, and nastier.
Only a matter of time...Bullies get theirs.

Sorry to digress...Reading about ancient history is one of my silly hobbies.

A further thought is maybe if someone 'needs' to be yelled at all the time then they might lack the common sense, and healthy fear of letting down their commander, and fellow troops.  Which IMHO is a sin...Or at least what I was raised to believe.

Cheers!
P.


----------



## winchable (7 Sep 2004)

> Reading about ancient history is one of my silly hobbies.



Haha, I had to laugh at that because it's actually my silly life that consists of reading history (ancient and the like)

As I understood the ancient greek concept of love differed a great deal to what it is today, so it's hardly fair for us to apply our modern conept of Dirty Old men in love with young boys (NAMBLA anyone?) to the Ancient Greek ideals of platonic respect love etc....alright fine they had their funny little moments...but I wasn't talking about that anyway.

I was more or less referring to the idea that a large group or class of young men could be raised into a class of warrior. I'm not talking about anything on the scale of the movie "Soldier" but it would certainly eliminate any need for a discussion on how much it hurts inside to be yelled at.

Of course it's an idea that's completely full of holes, and open to attack from any modern angle using concepts of "Ethics" or "Morality" and is more or less evolved from my overly romanticized views of life in any historical situation I've ever studied or read about. Truthfully ancient Greece has never been a focal point for me, but picked up plenty peripherally...

Anyhow, back on topic, nothing to see here folks move along.


----------



## Pugnacious (7 Sep 2004)

;D


----------



## 291er (7 Sep 2004)

I agree that sometimes JUNIOR junior NCM's are treated a little ridiculous, and I don't like the mentality of "well I was treated that way, so you should be".  We have to face that this is the "new army" or so lots of people tell me, and we're kinder and gentler.

That being said, JUNIOR Junior NCM's should also be weary of the way they act and present themselves.  Case in point....I was getting off yet another midnight shift at the "Ivory Towers" and caught the bus for my way home.  Well entering the bus I noticed a young female no hook Pte sitting on the bus and thought nothing of it (I was understandably tired).  Upon sitting down and closer examination, she had on pink Oakley sunglasses, a bright pink backpack slung over one shoulder, was chewing gum, and listening to a Discman.  I am in no way a stickler for dress regs, but I had to say something about these numerous infractions.  I approached her and inquired whether she knew about these regs, not in a rude or conceited manner whatsoever, and suggested that she may want to pay attention lest she bump into someone of a considerably higher rank and less approachable demeanour.  She replied that I was "only a Corporal" and brushed me off.  Now, this somewhat p**sed me off, however, I did an about face and made a mental note to try to email my buddy in the local Reserve unit to see if a Basic course was running and try to get in touch with her instructor.  When she got off the bus, I watched as she did'nt put her beret on, slumped the backpack over one shoulder and sauntered off the bus, walking directly past a LCol without saluting.

Now.....when I joined the military and did my basic, I would'nt have pondered doing this in a million years.  I remember being told that when one person looks sloppy, it reflects on the rest of the CF.  I also remember that Ignorance is no excuse...and if a friendly Cpl had suggested that I change something, I definitely would have taken his/her advice and would never in a million years blow him/her off and be exceedingly rude.  I must say that this somewhat flabbergasted me, I was in disbelief.  Any thoughts?


----------



## Ex-Dragoon (7 Sep 2004)

I think in a lot of units Cpls/LS are treated only a little better then Pte/AB/OS, I think that if that changed and it was seen to change then you would not see behaviour like that. Has to start changing from the top otherwise we are wasting our time.

You did what you could 291er not much else you can do without causing a scene.


----------



## Pugnacious (7 Sep 2004)

Well in my experience out side the Army I can say you can yell at dumb asses all day and still they will lack common sense.
If they don't have it in their heart then they need to make room for those that do.   As they say in the SEALS..show them the bell.

IMHO this ladies lack of respect for the uniform, and lack of professionalism   is very disturbing...here I'd kill to get in uniform, and be sworn in and she does that. ACK!   Perhaps this might be something for her peers to deal with?

I have to research this, but I think the US Army is doing some good stuff, in the stuff I have seen they are using positive training methods, and only turn up the 'old school stuff' when you get into Navy seals, Ranger etc.

I know from being a dog trainer that direction works better then correction, and any animal can be trained more effectivly (humans also) if one spends the time catching the animal doing things right, and rewarding this behavour, and shaping this.   Heavy correction leads to shut down of ALL behavours, and you loose the animals true personality , and drives. You need a subtle management system in place with this to prevent the behavours you don't want from becoming habit.

This is an art form.

With humans things get rather complex as it has been said that only we are capable of DENILE, and are highly manipulative as a species. Once again In this girls case I'd say her heart isn't in it, and or she has no Army role models to take after / look up to.

On the flip side I remember about 8 years back seeing a young lady in uniform taking the bus in Vancouver (prob'seaforth), and she was very proud of her uniform, and wore it well.   I couldn't take my eyes of of her the whole trip...totaly flawless. Even her Blond hair tucked under her cap was perfect.   And best yet was in her blue eyes one could see she was proud as well.
I hope she is still in and doing well.

So maybe there is hope.
P.


----------



## buglog1 (7 Sep 2004)

291er said:
			
		

> .   I remember being told that when one person looks sloppy, it reflects on the rest of the CF.   I also remember that Ignorance is no excuse...and if a friendly Cpl had suggested that I change something, I definitely would have taken his/her advice and would never in a million years blow him/her off and be exceedingly rude.   I must say that this somewhat flabbergasted me, I was in disbelief.   Any thoughts?



Reminds me of the saying about one broken window on a nice street and before long it is a slum. 

I think that your young Pte. will not be long in learning the ropes.   

My little sister (in my head she is still 12) just finished her first summer as an O/Cdt at CFLRS.   I got the impression that they held the instructors there in extremely high esteem for the most part.   Perhaps they are not as 'in-your-face' as they would be with the NCMs, but she mentioned that she had a very loud one-way discussion with a French M/Cpl after she did not react to a french drill command.    

I think that volume and intensity certainly have a time and a place.   It is just one more tool for someone in a leadership role to make use of...but the occasion must be appropriate.   

2 cents.


----------



## buglog1 (7 Sep 2004)

Hi Pug - can you make some room in your PM folder?  I have a note I would like to send your way.

Thanks!


----------



## CdnGalaGal (11 Sep 2004)

This probably shows my greenhorn nature, but I think I would have pounced on that girl (quietly and verbally of course) after her show of such blatant disrespect to the uniform and disregard for everything else. I'm still a bit too hot-tempered for my own good I think... After thinking it over later, I would have realized that I should have just gone through her chain of command... From the sounds of it though, she didn't have a name, differentiating cap badge, or accompanying flashes to speak of... It makes me wonder if her instructors or chain of command would care though. I mean, wouldn't they have seen her do this before? And why then did they not correct her before? 

There are, unfortunately, a lot of people who bring down the standards of dress - some you can correct, some you can't (high ranks with no notion of how to present themselves - or maybe it's just that the uniform is just work dress and really CAN be overlooked... buttons undone, hippie haircuts.. bah :-\). Be proud of your uniform... Maybe it will eventually rub off on others...


----------

