# Toronto EMS



## Activated (26 Jul 2009)

Hello,

Can anyone tell me anything about the Toronto EMS benefits, pay, health plans, stuff like that? I searched around the net and I only found a few things, most of them are outdated. So can anyone help?

Thanks in advance


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## mariomike (27 Jul 2009)

Activated said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> Can anyone tell me anything about the Toronto EMS benefits, pay, health plans, stuff like that? I searched around the net and I only found a few things, most of them are outdated. So can anyone help?
> 
> Thanks in advance



This is our Collective Agreement:
http://www.toronto.ca/employment/pdf/local416_collective_agreement_05-08.pdf
All the pay rates etc are in there. If you can't find what you are looking for, just ask. 
It expired 31 Dec 2008, but remains in effect until the new one is negotiated. Paramedics do not strike. 
When you retire, OMERS takes over. It will be NRA60 when your time comes. You stay on Manulife for medical, dental and life insurance when you retire. But, that's a long way off for you!
There's always lots of forced overtime. But, also lots of voluntary OT too. Never been a layoff. 
Injured Paramedics are treated very well. Ref: Article 46.  
T-EMS has a website and are also on Wikipedia. 
These are the shifts:
http://www.toemsnews.com/Paramedic_Calendars-09.htm


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## RubberTree (27 Jul 2009)

mariomike said:
			
		

> This is our Collective Agreement:
> http://www.toronto.ca/employment/pdf/local416_collective_agreement_05-08.pdf
> All the pay rates etc are in there. If you can't find what you are looking for, just ask.
> It expired 31 Dec 2008, but remains in effect until the new one is negotiated. Paramedics do not strike.
> ...



Maybe not in Toronto,
but here in Vancouver...


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## Good2Golf (27 Jul 2009)

RubberTree said:
			
		

> Maybe not in Toronto,
> but here in Vancouver...



Does B.C. not have "Essential Services" legislation?


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## Roy Harding (27 Jul 2009)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Does B.C. not have "Essential Services" legislation?



Yes.

And according to a friend who IS an EMT (and according to the MSM), the only duties not being done by the striking EMTs are administrative in nature.  IE - we (us citizens of BC) remain covered by the EMTs for life threatening circumstances.  No guarantee on the paperwork being filled out, however.

To be honest - I'm not entirely sure if I disagree with the EMT strike - and I USUALLY oppose MOST union actions.  

My wife is a "casual" worker in the health care system, and I'm appalled at how she is treated by the system and her "manager" (who couldn't "manage" her way to a gang bang in a whore house).  The EMTs here (at least in rural areas like mine) _seem_ to be fulfilling their life-saving duties - whilst refusing to do administrative tasks.

I'm not sure how much good it's doing them - but I can "live" with that.


Roy


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## medaid (27 Jul 2009)

RubberTree said:
			
		

> Maybe not in Toronto,
> but here in Vancouver...



Before you think you can smirk or sneer at BCAS's members taking job action, know this:

1) As a Primary Care Paramedic starting off in their Career with BCAS they're paid $2/hr. Yes, you read that correctly, the BCAS members at the start of their careers are paid $2/hr. This is what's known as Pager Pay. There are two different shift patterns a fresh out of Paramedic Academy member can work. It's either a Kilo or a Foxtrot car shift. I won't go into details as in what the differences of each is, but the bottom line is they are paid $2/hr to sit their with a pager on 12hr shifts. If they receive no calls then they are paid $24 total for their shift. So, please tell me this, where in the North American continent, is there an EMS/Paramedic/Fire Rescue service where you make $2/hr to start? 

2) Some members I know work their behinds OFF, and puts in for as many shifts as they possibly can and only clears $40,000 a year, roughly. I mean working almost none stop, with very very few days off in a year. 

3) There are NO benefits when you first start with BCAS. The benefits are small to almost laughable. If you're sick, you're not able to work? Too bad, I guess you're not being paid either. You're not being given sick days, and you're not covered medically unless its job related. 

4) BCAS is considered an Essential Service, so they can't go on a complete strike. However, they are not considered to be an Emergency Service. So... what E-Comm really should do is answer the 9-1-1 calls like this "Emergency Police or Fire?" Yup, there's no Ambulance in there, because Ambulance is not considered to be an Emergency Service. 

5) If you were a member of BCAS and being paid $2/hr and starving, and finding out from your buddy that works oh say... Toronto EMS and finds out that they're paid $21/hr to start, would you not be a little peeved? Just a tiny bit pissed off? 

6) Fire/Police are paid more then just a BIT higher then Paramedics here in the province of BC. Polcie you're starting at a minimum of $45,000 to start when going through Academy. Then you're making $50k when you're past probation, then you're quickly in the $60ks. For a paramedic you're in the $20ks... then... $25ks... then... maybe if you're lucky... $35ks... then really lucky? $45ks... not taking any vacation of course.

Sure the senior guys are making some what decent money, but in perspective the members of BCAS are making PEANUTS. Especially when these are the people who are taking care of our sick and dying every single day of their shift. They are the ones who are always there at a scene of an accident, dealing with traumatic situations, horrific scenes, upon scenes upon scenes. This isn't like Fire service, where you're dispatched to a medical call because you're close, after you're clear you go back to the hall pump some iron and watch your big screen T.V. After a paramedic is done at the scene, they must go to the hospital, then wait there, and wait there, and wait there. If they're lucky after the patients' are admitted they get to go back to the station for some down time. Which means sleep. 

There is no happy call for a paramedic, or at least not that many in their careers. They see more horrific crap then police/fire combined, yet they are paid at a fraction of the other two service. Is this fair? If you got the crappy end of the stick would you not take job action? I mean, come on! 

The Paramedics are NOT refusing to work, they are refusing to work extra. Their method of job action is to say no to OT, say no to call outs, and generally no to extra things. People are suffering from this as well. Remember what I said about those paramedics that work their butts off just so they can eat? Well... they are suffering even MORE now, because they WANT change, they WANT the government to start paying paramedics for what they are WORTH, which with their job and education is more then $2/hr. 

Get your story straight BC.

Next time you see an ambulance remember this:

In the back of the ambulance there's an individual who is hungry, tired, injured, burn out, stressed beyond belief, mentally and emotionally exhausted, feeling abused, overworked, under appreciated, under paid, and worried. Then there's the patient.


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## Civvymedic (27 Jul 2009)

I know it's Brutal out there for the PCP's. Whats it like for the ACP's? The time has come to change things, that's incredible to hear. The PCP's where I work in Ontario are at $37.00 an hour. I have had the pleasure to work with the B.C.A.S. ACP teams that have come to the National Paramedic Competition the last two years and I must say I think they are amongst the best in the business.

We (EMS in Ontario) were recently warned that the B.C.government has made changes to the legislation in regards to the licencing of Paramedics in B.C. The changes allow temporary licencing of those Paramedics who are licenced in other Provinces, Military Medics, and some Paramedic students. We were told that B.C.A.S. may be putting out a job call for temporary medics to go and work in B.C. during the Olympic period. I was told that anyone going to do this would be considered a scab by CUPE National and rightfully so. Looks like the Province may be expecting this action to last through the games.


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## Good2Golf (27 Jul 2009)

MedTech, that definitely rings hollow, especially for a Government that espouses itself to be more socially-orientated.  Wow!


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## mariomike (27 Jul 2009)

MedTech said:
			
		

> Toronto EMS and finds out that they're paid $21/hr to start



Hi. I'm not sure what your source of information for the above is, but it is far from accurate.  Which is why I posted our Collective Agreement ( expired 31 Dec 2008 ) for the young person who asked for the facts:
http://www.toronto.ca/employment/pdf/local416_collective_agreement_05-08.pdf
It's all in there. A new C.A. is being negotiated, retroactive to 1 Jan 2009.
I should add that, in my lifetime, there have never been part-timers at T-EMS. Everone works a 40 hour week.  Stat Holidays, Shift Bonus etc are described in the C.A. Voluntary overtime is distributed in an equitable manner, and there's plenty of it.
What is not in the C.A. is the personal satisfaction that being a member of T-EMS gave me, and many others. That's something that money can't buy.


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## medaid (27 Jul 2009)

mariomike, I am sorry for posting that misleading info. It was more of a "everyone else is higher" type of comment. 

Civvymedic: I can't tell you what the province plans to do, but I know right now the  management for BCAS is hurting everyday because cars are down. They are still maintaining calls for service don't get me wrong, but they are short staffed. If they, the government and senior civilian management of BCAS doesn't pull their head out of their anal orifices soon, then they'll be hurting even MORE during 2010. Just a theory. ACPs or ALS parmedic out here do alright. This is because they're senior guys with close to 10 years of service, and are all full-time. They clear around $55-$60,000 a year the last time I checked. Again... not worth it. We have some of the best and brightest paramedics in the country here in BC. We represent Canada constantly at international competitions, and place in the top 3... yet they're not valued...

G2G: There's a few members on the board who works for the service, if they ever decide to comment, then we can benefit from their knowledge. I only work along with and close with the service, and it's quite interesting. Lets just say it's the one place I will NOT be looking for a job when I'm license in the province of BC.


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## mariomike (27 Jul 2009)

Good grief. I googled BCAS and came up with this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_gOY3Nb6YM

I should add:
Some of the comments below the story are sad.
Is the story accurate? It's hard to believe.


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## medaid (27 Jul 2009)

Et Voila... youtube tells all once more eh?


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## RubberTree (27 Jul 2009)

I'm not smirking or sneering so please drop the tone. I simply stated that they are on strike. I understand their position, I sympathize with it for the most part.


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## Good2Golf (27 Jul 2009)

RubberTree said:
			
		

> I'm not smirking or sneering so please drop the tone. I simply stated that they are on strike. I understand their position, I sympathize with it for the most part.



 ???

If you added a quote or used someone's name, we would know to whom you are referring.


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## Roy Harding (27 Jul 2009)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> ???
> 
> If you added a quote or used someone's name, we would know to whom you are referring.



I think he's referring to this:



			
				MedTech said:
			
		

> Before you think you can smirk or sneer at BCAS's members taking job action, know this:
> ...


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## Good2Golf (28 Jul 2009)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> I think he's referring to this:



Ah, the old "referring to a post seven posts earlier without a name or reference or quote" trick...got it.  Thanks Roy.


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## medaid (28 Jul 2009)

RubberTree said:
			
		

> I'm not smirking or sneering so please drop the tone. I simply stated that they are on strike. I understand their position, I sympathize with it for the most part.



Gotcha, your original post didn't seem like you were sympathetic. It's a sensitive subject for all in or close to the service.


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## Med Tech 2010 (28 Jul 2009)

I understand what the medics in BC are fighting for. Plus I am working towards being in the EMS field so I am sympathetic to BC Paramedics


I have been searching and gathering as much information as could from the ASBC as I could from out of province. As a general rule, one cannot be paid for nothing (or just being on call). If a paramedic hardly is getting a call and is making 21 dollars an hour, it is going to get political from the public. The government cannot afford it. The paramedics are pushing the $2 dollar business when they should be pushing a need for restructuring. I sorry, I think the way ASBC operates is very flaw and it is the management/ leadership issues. BC needs to look at either a Firemedic service or to go private service again. I cannot see how ASBC can survive. IT HAS NOT WORKED.


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## FastEddy (28 Jul 2009)

MedTech said:
			
		

> .




Personally I take my hat off to all those who work in our Health System, Doctors, Nurses,ParaMedics and the Emergency Medical Services, where ever they might be.

They are certainally not paid enough for what they do and their responsibilities compared to some professions, which I dare not mention, due to the possibility of a Law Suite.

Theirs is a profession that I could not do nor would try.

If you disagree with this, try making $7.25 ph and living in the United States, then you can truly appreciate what we have.

Cheers.


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## Civvymedic (28 Jul 2009)

How does it really work for PCP's out there? Im assuming all the ACP's are full time making a decent wage. So for the PCP's in the large urban areas like Vancouver,Victoria etc. they must all be full time on the cars making a full time wage. They cant be on call. So is it the PCP's in the rural areas that are on call similar to the volunteer Fire Depts that the fight is about?


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## mariomike (28 Jul 2009)

Med Tech 2010 said:
			
		

> I am working towards being in the EMS field so I am sympathetic to BC Paramedics



B.C. Ambulance sounds like something out of a Charles Dickens novel. Or Cinderella. Even the funeral home used to treat us better back in 1972. What a year that was!  :nod: 

[/quote]
As a general rule, one cannot be paid for nothing (or just being on call).
[/quote]

See Article 8.02 in the link already posted in this thread.

[/quote]
If a paramedic hardly is getting a call and is making 21 dollars an hour, it is going to get political from the public.
[/quote]

It is going to get political when the Coroner's Inquest decides someone died because the ambulance took too long. The next step is when it gets expensive because of the Next of Kin's lawsuit. 
Toronto EMS - a high performance system - pays Paramedics a lot more than $21/hr to eat, sleep and watch TV around the clock on the Island. From Sept to May they hardly turn a wheel. All because of 262 cottage homes are there. They are legally entitled to the same service as any other Ward 28 resident on the mainland.

[/quote]
BC needs to look at either a Firemedic service or to go private service again. 
[/quote]

Read about FDNY-EMS:
http://www.fdnyemswebsite.com/
Police and fire are not private, neither should be EMS.


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## RubberTree (29 Jul 2009)

MedTech said:
			
		

> Gotcha, your original post didn't seem like you were sympathetic. It's a sensitive subject for all in or close to the service.



I agree...most of them coming into the hospital avoid discussing it lately. I think they are sick and tired and just want to get back to regular old work.


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## medaid (29 Jul 2009)

Med Tech 2010 said:
			
		

> I understand what the medics in BC are fighting for. Plus I am working towards being in the EMS field so I am sympathetic to BC Paramedics
> 
> 
> I have been searching and gathering as much information as could from the ASBC as I could from out of province. As a general rule, one cannot be paid for nothing (or just being on call). If a paramedic hardly is getting a call and is making 21 dollars an hour, it is going to get political from the public. The government cannot afford it. The paramedics are pushing the $2 dollar business when they should be pushing a need for restructuring. I sorry, I think the way ASBC operates is very flaw and it is the management/ leadership issues. BC needs to look at either a Firemedic service or to go private service again. I cannot see how ASBC can survive. IT HAS NOT WORKED.



Not to really nitpick however, it's BCAS "British Columbia Ambulance Service" I have never heard of ASBC. I'm sorry but, you don't know what you are talking about. I and probably 99.9% of the paramedics out here would NOT go for a Fire Rescue/EMS system. You cannot cross train effectively, and you don't have enough money or time to do it. It's not the same as a medic in the CF, where we have time, and where we have the budget to come out with a warrior healer (and we honestly fail at that allot of the times too). That's why most TEMS medics are civi medics cross trained with tactics. You can't get someone whose side gig is EMS. It just doesn't work. What's your priority going to be in a Fire/EMS service? I can almost guarantee you that it won't be EMS. 

We call them bucketheads for a reason. Great for lifting heavy stretchers, great for doing CPR, but leave the differential diagnosis to the professionals please.


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## Sheerin (3 Aug 2009)

*shudder* Firemedic.  */shudder*

Only thing worse is to be called an Ambulance Driver


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## mariomike (9 Oct 2009)

"EMS delay in man's death preventable: ministry
Disciplinary action against those involved 'a joke,' says partner"
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2009/10/08/ems-hearst-strike-report734.html?ref=rss
http://www.toronto.ca/your_health/ems.htm


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