# Bayonet question?



## bigsmoke636 (26 Jan 2014)

So I bought an 2000's Canadian forces bayonet, made in Germany from my local army surplus and I bought it for reserves/ftx's. (that I plan on joining in the near future) When I got and took it home it I saw it was dull and couldn't even cut paper also had a chip in the blade near the top and the point was rounded. So without researching. I went ahead and sharpen it (I know how to sharpen knives and i own an Oil stone). couple minutes/hours later I have it sharp. For some reason I decided to look up other ways to sharpen a bayonet all I got was "WHY NOT TO SHARPEN A BAYONET" and after reading some articles in the U.S military it is frowned upon and that the officers would take their knives and dull it but couldn't find anything on the Canadian military. What I want to know is in the Canadian armed forces do anyone sharpen their bayonets, Is it frowned upon and if I got to an ftx with it will my officer/CO take it and dull it down. If this is all like in the U.S military can you tell me why it is frowned upon? P.S sorry for the brightness in the pictures. P.P.S  Is it illegal to own Canadian forces gear? P.P.P.S Should I put knife/sharpening oil on the knife and in the sheath?


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## medicineman (26 Jan 2014)

I guess my first question would be: Why would you buy a bayonet for "joining the Reserves/going on exercises with them" when you'd likely be issued one when/if you get into your unit?

As for why they'd be dulled, the only reason I can think of is that it would cause blunt/tearing trauma as well as cutting type trauma going through/coming out of the body.


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## Old Sweat (26 Jan 2014)

medicineman said:
			
		

> As for why they'd be dulled, the only reason I can think of is that it would cause blunt/tearing trauma as well as cutting type trauma going through/coming out of the body.



Putting my sarcastic cap on, it could very well be to reduce the number of wounds to our own troops when doing drill. Without my cap on, I am not sure a sharp bayonet would be that much of an advantage if you wanted to pierce somebody or something. And that comes from someone with zip knowledge of human anatomy and wound ballistics.


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## Jarnhamar (26 Jan 2014)

There's a pretty good rumor that sharpening a bayonet is against the Geneva convention because it increases suffering therefore illegal.

They're a nice looking knife but you might want to bring the knife back or try to sell it.

-They aren't very sturdy knives and they break very easily. They break ALL the time when doing bayonet training. 
-There is a chance that the unit you'll be working with is using the old C7 bayonets, if you are using this new one you may get asked where you got it. The chain of command may not like your answer and tell you to use the old one.
-You may get accused of stealing a bayonet (I'd keep your recite in your locker at work)
- You may get a new one issued in which case this one will sit around collecting dust (unless you loose yours and want to cover it up)


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## bigsmoke636 (26 Jan 2014)

@ medicineman Why i got it was i heard they don't hand them out to reserves anymore and it was 50$ (i collect swords and knifes)
@ Old Sweat Why i sharpen my knifes is for survival use i.e cutting rope, fruit, tree bark ect.


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## Fishbone Jones (26 Jan 2014)

There is no rule about sharpened bayonets. Plenty of people were cut with the previous generation C7 bayonet that came very sharp as issued.

However, there is no reason to sharpen an issue one with more of an edge than issued. Carry a good pocket knife if you want something sharp. You'll not likely get the same bayonet next issue anyway and the RQ might not like you fucking with his equipment.

Bayonets are a utilitarian tool in the field. People dig, pry, cut, chop, pierce and prod with them. The least thing our modern ones have been used for is killing someone.

The rule people are thinking of is filing teeth into the spine, making them like a saw blade, to make them tear flesh. That dates back to WWI. IIRC it was said you would be executed on the spot if caught by the enemy with one modified as such. Could be true, I don't know. I'm not bothering to dig for fact.


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## Nfld Sapper (26 Jan 2014)

bigsmoke636 said:
			
		

> @ medicineman Why i got it was i heard they don't hand them out to reserves anymore and it was 50$ (i collect swords and knifes)



Bull$hit, they are issued I got them in my weapons box as does all other members in my regiment even then new recruits....

And besides you are now probably in possession of stolen Government property... :2c:


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## medicineman (26 Jan 2014)

bigsmoke636 said:
			
		

> @ medicineman Why i got it was i heard they don't hand them out to reserves anymore and it was 50$ (i collect swords and knifes)
> @ Old Sweat Why i sharpen my knifes is for survival use i.e cutting rope, fruit, tree bark ect.



I get the collecting thing, however as OZ noted, you might get some funny looks/rude comments directed at you for carrying equipment not issued to you/anyone else in your unit, especially early on in training.

As for sharpening things for survival reasons, like OZ noted, it's not a good knife...if you want a knife, carry one - most people do, some more than one.  I have my non-issue spring blade knife as well as my non-issued Leatherman.  The bayonet I use for intended purposes - as a sticking thingy on the end of my rifle or a prodding thingy to get out of a minefield...when I'm issued it.

RG - not sure about the saw blade thing being illegal - the Kalashnikov bayonets have the saw teeth on them (they Yugoslav one I have certainly does), and most countries in the WP were signatories of the GC.  

I see someone beat me to a couple things.

 :2c:

MM


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## Fishbone Jones (26 Jan 2014)

Like I said, I'm not sure of the sawtooth thing. Just some stories I recall.


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## Eye In The Sky (26 Jan 2014)

bigsmoke636 said:
			
		

> Why i got it was i heard they don't hand them out to reserves anymore and it was 50$ (i collect swords and knifes)



By that logic then, you bought something the Reserves don't "hand out" anymore so that you could have something that you can't use anymore?

Or were just thinking "hey!...I can be Uber-Cool Recruit Guy with my VERY OWN bayonet.  :bowing: Everyone will be in AWE of me and that bayonet!"


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## Kat Stevens (26 Jan 2014)

Any time I went to the field I would zip tie the bayonet to the frog so it wouldn't fly off on one of my 10,000 mountings and dismountings of vehicles.  To me in the field it was a less than useless encumbrance, and if I didn't have to carry it, I wouldn't have.


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## Nfld Sapper (26 Jan 2014)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Any time I went to the field I would zip tie the bayonet to the frog so it wouldn't fly off on one of my 10,000 mountings and dismountings of vehicles.  To me in the field it was a less than useless encumbrance, and if I didn't have to carry it, I wouldn't have.



Well Kat that was how most of us kept the 82 pattern webbing together too.... ;D


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## Jarnhamar (26 Jan 2014)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Any time I went to the field I would zip tie the bayonet to the frog so it wouldn't fly off on one of my 10,000 mountings and dismountings of vehicles.  To me in the field it was a less than useless encumbrance, and if I didn't have to carry it, I wouldn't have.



It could be a typo but on my current kitlist it has the bayonet "on order" otherwise it's stashed in the kitbag  ;D


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## Nfld Sapper (26 Jan 2014)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> It could be a typo but on my current kitlist it has the bayonet "on order" otherwise it's stashed in the kitbag  ;D



Same here so mine stays in the weapons box.... ;D


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## chrisf (26 Jan 2014)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> There's a pretty good rumor that sharpening a bayonet is against the Geneva convention because it increases suffering therefore illegal.



That Rumor is false. You can sharpen them

The new bayonet even come with a sharpening stone.

They were traditionally blunted for drill/training/storage, the last time this came up someone posted very old British instructions for chemically blunting bayonets.


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## Jarnhamar (26 Jan 2014)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> That Rumor is false. You can sharpen them



I know  ;D


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## chrisf (26 Jan 2014)

bigsmoke636 said:
			
		

> So I bought an 2000's Canadian forces Bayonet, made in Germany from my local army surplus and i bought it for reserves/FTX's. (that i plan on joining in the near future)



I say good on you for being keen, a sharp knife is always important...

You should ask your recruiter if you can bring it for your swearing in ceremony, that maple leaf on the blade would look great in the hand shake picture!


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## Kat Stevens (26 Jan 2014)

Plus, you can use it to practice your mad CoD underwater knife fighting skillz.


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## bigsmoke636 (26 Jan 2014)

@ a Sig Op  is that what the small silverish square on the sheath is? If you need an picture i will take one. and thank you for the complement


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## Journeyman (26 Jan 2014)

bigsmoke636 said:
			
		

> ......and thank you for the complement


You _may_ wish to click ---> here    op:


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## Mr. St-Cyr (26 Jan 2014)

The Hague Convention dissallows "To employ arms, projectiles, or material of a nature to cause superfluous injury." Frangible and expanding bullets and etc are covered by this. Doesn't specifically mention  conventional weapons like bayonets. The Geneva conventions specifically prohibit the use of gas and other chemical agents.

You could interpret the Hague Convention's line to extend to hand serrated or triangular shaped bayonets meant to cause superfluous injuries.


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## Eye In The Sky (26 Jan 2014)

Mr. St-Cyr said:
			
		

> The Hague Convention dissallows "To employ arms, projectiles, or material of a nature to cause superfluous injury." .



I guess the person who decided "ham omelettes" and "baked orange dessert" were suitable food stuffs at the _Good Idea Fairy, IMPs Division _didn't know this.   rly:


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## Jarnhamar (26 Jan 2014)

Mr. St-Cyr said:
			
		

> The Hague Convention dissallows "To employ arms, projectiles, or material of a nature to cause superfluous injury." Frangible and expanding bullets and etc are covered by this.



Does that mean Canada can't use 168grain hollow point bullets?  ;D


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## Mr. St-Cyr (26 Jan 2014)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Does that mean Canada can't use 168grain hollow point bullets?  ;D



Yes, yes it does. You silly goose.


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## CombatDoc (26 Jan 2014)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Does that mean Canada can't use 168grain hollow point bullets?  ;D


No, we can. The Hollow Point in precision 7.62 ammo is a result of the manufacturing process. Not specifically designed to wound. This has been previously discussed in one of the threads.


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## Jarnhamar (26 Jan 2014)

Ah yes, I was trying to play coy with Mr St-Cyr.

Interesting that a medic knows that loophole....


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## Mr. St-Cyr (26 Jan 2014)

This is the only other reference I could find:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5DMNWdSTzI

Watch at 51:00


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## Pusser (27 Jan 2014)

recceguy said:
			
		

> The rule people are thinking of is filing teeth into the spine, making them like a saw blade, to make them tear flesh. That dates back to WWI. IIRC it was said you would be executed on the spot if caught by the enemy with one modified as such. Could be true, I don't know. I'm not bothering to dig for fact.



This is discussed in _All Quiet on the Western Front _ by Erich Maria Remarque (a German WWI veteran).  In the book, he describes the older veterans in the trenches taking the saw-backed bayonets away from the new replacements coming up into the line for the first time (the German Army having jsut started issuing them).  They gave them older smooth bayonets instead.  The reasoning being that there had been reports of dead German soldiers being found with parts of their bodies sawn off with their own bayonets, implying that British soldiers had done it out of anger at the thought of German soldiers using weapons designed to inflict unnecessary pain and suffering.


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## Loachman (27 Jan 2014)

Please put a little more effort into such things as sentence structure, grammar, punctuation, and proper capitalization, bigsmoke636.

That would make your posts much easier to read.


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## bigsmoke636 (27 Jan 2014)

@ Loachman I edited it for you. Still not the best but better.


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## Loachman (27 Jan 2014)

The effort is appreciated.

Keep working at it, though. We are picky here, and in the CF.


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## Shrek1985 (3 Feb 2014)

Germans were executed for carrying sawback bayonets because...any excuse is a good one I guess...it broke no rules, but it looked nasty and troops kill a lot of people during assaults, irregardless of status. The brits hadn't issued a sawback in decades at that point, but the practice had been quite widespread, typically either 1-2 per squad and/or exclusive to sappers and engineers throughout Europe. Remember these were the days of specialized carbines/musketoons for artillery, sappers, MPs, ect. No clue as to their usefulness, but the idea was that it gave you a saw you could use, without issuing another item. They were commonly called "pioneer bayonets" and similar in the local tongue.

The practice fell out after WWI because it had become too common to execute legal combatants carrying them.

It's somewhat of a more cool-headed version of the vein of executing flame-thrower operators, though those were retained for their obvious usefulness until PC bullshit, willful ignorance and limp-wristed distaste saw to their decline.

more germane to the subject;

@OP; i'd seriously consider if you are in possession of stolen property. I'd not show that item around if I were you and in fact as it is a crappy knife and a worse bayonet; I'd toss it. Not sell (stolen, remember?) toss it and chock it up to life experience.

As to the rest; it is a blade; therefor it should be sharpened and kept clean and free of rust. This applies to all the bladed instruments in your Qs; including, yes; shovels. And yes, sigh, it DOES make them work better, obviously. 

Bayonets should be of an all-metal (shiny) appearance on the blade; this parkerizing (or whatever finish it is) bullshit is asinine and reduces the primary value of the bayonet; intimidation. Bayonets have two roles; 70% scaring the shit out of the enemy; thus making a show of flashing steel when you fix. A pointed rifle says; "I am going to kill you" but that fails to resonate in the hind brain you want to get at. A fixed bayonet says; "I am going to come over THERE and kill you, by exploring your insides with a cold hunk of sharp metal" That does the job; keys right into the natural fear of a mammal towards teeth and claws. 

25% is for firming up the morale and fighting spirit of your own guys and it works too; look at history for examples. 

The remaining 5% is for a little bit of Close-Quarter work.

Beyond that; frankly the discussion is more trouble in the CF, especially on this forum than it is worth with LOAC vs Laws of War and the limited understanding of both that pervades all levels of the CF.


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## Flavus101 (3 Feb 2014)

Shrek1985 said:
			
		

> Bayonets should be of an all-metal (shiny) appearance on the blade; this parkerizing (or whatever finish it is) bullshit is asinine and reduces the primary value of the bayonet; intimidation.



I thought the reason for the blacking out is to prevent light reflections (much like having a honeycomb on a scope) when at night. In WWII I believe there were a lot of night patrols where bayonets were used. No idea how often this happens in modern times, might just be something that continued on for the sake of it already being in place.


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## Tibbson (3 Feb 2014)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Does that mean Canada can't use 168grain hollow point bullets?  ;D



MPs use hollow point in their 9mm Sigs domestically but they must carry and fire ball while deployed outside of Canada.  Further down this thread is the first I have every heard of any long gun hollow point but if people say it's so.....


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## Old Sweat (3 Feb 2014)

Flavus101 said:
			
		

> I thought the reason for the blacking out is to prevent light reflections (much like having a honeycomb on a scope) when at night. In WWII I believe there were a lot of night patrols where bayonets were used. No idea how often this happens in modern times, might just be something that continued on for the sake of it already being in place.



The pam for the C1 rifle made the point that the reason its bayonet blade was shiny was that when bayonets were fixed, we wanted the enemy to know it.


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## Jarnhamar (3 Feb 2014)

Schindler's lift said:
			
		

> MPs use hollow point in their 9mm Sigs domestically but they must carry and fire ball while deployed outside of Canada.  Further down this thread is the first I have every heard of any long gun hollow point but if people say it's so.....



Hague Conventions 1899 IV3
Interestingly commonwealth snipers (well Canadian and British) use it but US forces don't. 

I'd facetiously suggest that putting something like boot polish, paint, or like someone did to my bayonet magick marker, would violate the conventions surrounding the use of chemical weapons as bootpolish et el on a blade could enter someones blood system and cause cancer  ;D


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## Flavus101 (3 Feb 2014)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> The pam for the C1 rifle made the point that the reason its bayonet blade was shiny was that when bayonets were fixed, we wanted the enemy to know it.



Very interesting! Thanks for sharing that.  :nod:


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## NavyShooter (3 Feb 2014)

To quote from CFP 317(2) Chapter 6, para 601:

601.  Introduction

New weapons have not rendered the rifle obsolete nor have they eliminated the requirement, on occasion, for the bayonet.  When fire power alone is insufficient to drive a determined enemy from his position, he may have to be driven out in hand-to-hand combat using all available weapons, including grenades and small arms.  Situations that do not permit the loading or reloading of the rifle or the use of grenades are instances when the bayonet may become the primary weapon in subduing the enemy.


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## daftandbarmy (3 Feb 2014)

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> To quote from CFP 317(2) Chapter 6, para 601:
> 
> 601.  Introduction
> 
> New weapons have not rendered the rifle obsolete nor have they eliminated the requirement, on occasion, for the bayonet.  When fire power alone is insufficient to drive a determined enemy from his position, he may have to be driven out in hand-to-hand combat using all available weapons, including grenades and small arms.  Situations that do not permit the loading or reloading of the rifle or the use of grenades are instances when the bayonet may become the primary weapon in subduing the enemy.



When the bayonet is attached, no one is safe, not even the enemy ;D

"All around the 1st Platoon position, small groups of soldiers were fighting for their lives. Privates Ben Gough and Dominic Gray managed to crawl undetected up to an Argentine bunker and crouched beside it as the Marine conscripts inside blasted away into the night. In unison the two Paras each pulled the pin out of a grenade and 'posted' them through the firing slit of the bunker. The instant the grenades exploded, the two jumped in the bunker and started to bayonet the two Marines. Private Gray killed a Marine by sticking his bayonet through his eye socket. They were both mentioned in despatches." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mount_Longdon


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## Shrek1985 (5 Feb 2014)

Flavus101 said:
			
		

> I thought the reason for the blacking out is to prevent light reflections (much like having a honeycomb on a scope) when at night. In WWII I believe there were a lot of night patrols where bayonets were used. No idea how often this happens in modern times, might just be something that continued on for the sake of it already being in place.



I think cam paint oughta fix that up. Likewise burnt cork or just tarnish from a candle, or other open flame.


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## Mr. St-Cyr (5 Feb 2014)

Didn't the British bust out a bayonet charge in the Mid-East? I'm thinking 2003ish?


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## MJP (6 Feb 2014)

Mr. St-Cyr said:
			
		

> Didn't the British bust out a bayonet charge in the Mid-East? I'm thinking 2003ish?



2004.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-most-famous-bayonet-charge-of-modern-conflict-2012-10

Brian Wood was just a young lance corporal at the time when he dismounted his thin-skinned vehicle amid withering enemy fire, and followed his commander's order to fix bayonets.
The order came from from Sgt. Dave Falconer, reports The Sun and BBC, who later said he was proud of the actions from his men that day.

The date was May 14, 2004, and Falconer, along with Wood, Private Anthony Rushforth, Sgt Chris Broome, and privates John-Claude Fowler and Matthew Tatawaqa, were speeding down a roadway 150 miles south of Basra in Southern Iraq. They were on their way to relieve fellow comrades caught in an ambush when they were caught in one of their own.

The fire was so close and at such an angle (a close quartered, L-shaped ambush) that the only way to defeat it "was to put boots on the ground," said Falconer.

So he immediately ordered his men to dismount and fix bayonets.

"When the order came to dismount and attack, it was just like what we've done dozens of times in training," said Rushforth to the Sun. "We were pumped up on adrenaline — proper angry. It's only afterwards you think, ‘Jesus, I actually did that.'"

The six soldiers charged across open ground, pausing only to throw themselves to the ground to avoid enemy fire, and return a bit of their own. In a few small sprints, they had traversed to the first trench, into which they immediately leapt, coming face to face with the enemy.

The fighting was close quarters and intense.

"Basically, it was short, sharp and furious," said Wood, who was later awarded the Military Cross for actions that day.

Cleared, they headed to the next, and the next, fighting, which took almost two hours, and the lives of approximately 30 Mahdi army soldiers of Muqtada Al-Sadr.

A few continued to hold out, holed up in a bunker, until a British tank arrived to level it.

The last time the Army used bayonets in action, The Sun noted, was when Scots Guards assaulted Argentinian positions in 1982.


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## Mr. St-Cyr (6 Feb 2014)

Yes, that's the one! Thank you.


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