# Is Canada going to offer any help? Like DART



## The_Falcon (31 Aug 2005)

This seemed like it needed its own thread.  Will Canada (The Government in an Official Capacity) offer any help or support to our American friends/ALLIES.  Now I know the US is not Thailand or Sri Lanka and probably does not require assistance, but friends being friends and as a jesture of good will, should our government offer some form of assistance.  Personally I think we should at least make the offer to help, I mean is it only politically correct to help out third world nations?  Watching this on CNN and the damage is massive all along the gulf coast.  As one caller on Larry King asked the Governor of Louisiana, (I'm paraphrasing)  "After all the help and support we have offered other countries in times like these, has any foriegn government offered help?  

Thoughts, opinions?


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## Devlin (31 Aug 2005)

It couldn't hurt to help strengthen the relationship between our two countries. We surely can't provide all the required resources to get them out of this mess but every little bit will help.

The DART team might not be a bad place to start, anyone with expertise in this area (DART team members) have any insight on this?


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## The_Falcon (31 Aug 2005)

Todays Toronto Sun Letter of the Day

http://www.torontosun.com/Comment/Letters/2005/08/31/1194967.html



> In light of our national penchant for patting ourselves on the back and seeing ourselves as "world leaders" in humanitarian aid, it will be interesting to see how our self-righteous intellectuals respond to the cataclysmic events in New Orleans from Hurricane Katrina.
> 
> We are so quick to demand action from our governments when something tragic happens "over there," but I wonder if there will be the same hue and cry when it happens to our closest friend and neighbour.
> 
> ...


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## John Nayduk (31 Aug 2005)

There were a lot of Americans helping out during the Ice Storm.  How quick we are to forget.


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## Danjanou (31 Aug 2005)

I am sure individual Canadians will open their hearts and wallets and give generously to the Red Cross and/or any other charities organizations that are set up to provide financial assistance as we have in the past , 9/11. However the silence of our political leaders on this matter is both telling and  a source of national embarrassment (yet again). Not even a public message of condolence from Mr Dithers to date.


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## The_Falcon (31 Aug 2005)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> However the silence of our political leaders on this matter is both telling and   a source of national embarrassment (yet again). Not even a public message of condolence from Mr Dithers to date.



Doesn't surprise me.  I guess Americans don't really make up very much of our immigrant vote.


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## Cloud Cover (31 Aug 2005)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> However the silence of our political leaders on this matter is both telling and   a source of national embarrassment (yet again). Not even a public message of condolence from Mr Dithers to date.



I completely agree. I have friends in New Orleans who have probably lost everything, and I will do whatever I can to help. I know the US would do every thing possible to help Canada.... we should at least make the offer to assist. Get moving Dithers...


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## Britney Spears (31 Aug 2005)

<a href=http://www.bernama.com.my/bernama/v3/news.php?id=152850>Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez  offers fuel, food to hurricane-hit US</a>


 ;D


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## Devlin (31 Aug 2005)

S_Baker

Are you anywhere near all of this? If so hope everything is alright for you and your family.


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## Kirkhill (31 Aug 2005)

I worked with a lot of the folks in the Menhaden fishmeal plants along that coast, drove those highways, stayed in those hotels.....Those people were never anything other than open and welcoming.

As a result of their generosity of spirit I made a living while living in Canada.  The money that I earned from doing business with them I brought back to Canada, spent it here to support my family and was taxed here by the Canadian government.  Some of that money went to support Canadian fishermen and fishplant workers that competed with those southerners and were supplied a better standard of living.  There are a multitude of Canadians in many industries in many parts of Canada like me.

It would seem appropriate that the Government that benefited from the revenues, the Canadians that benefited from the revenues, would immediately go to the aid of those that supplied those benefits.
A friend doesn't wait to be asked to help, doesn't say "call if you really need help", they just jump in and start helping.

I truly regret the meanness and narrowness of our Government and those that support it.


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## lou133 (31 Aug 2005)

I heard that the Red Cross is asking for volunteer from Canada, so it would be logical that a team from Dart goes there to help rescue the people in need


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## Fishbone Jones (31 Aug 2005)

lou133 said:
			
		

> I heard that the Red Cross is asking for volunteer from Canada, so it would be logical that a team from Dart goes there to help rescue the people in need



The two organizations are not connected, so what's the logic? The DART is not equipped to even make a move that close on short notice. Personally, I'll be suprised if our government even offers verbal support.


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## lou133 (31 Aug 2005)

recceguy said:
			
		

> The two organizations are not connected, so what's the logic? The DART is not equipped to even make a move that close on short notice. Personally, I'll be suprised if our government even offers verbal support.



So juste to be sure, what's the exact purpose of DART, emergency or reconstruction, or something else


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## The_Falcon (31 Aug 2005)

lou133 said:
			
		

> So juste to be sure, what's the exact purpose of DART, emergency or reconstruction, or something else


DART= Disaster Assistance Response Team, its supposed purpose is to help out in situations exactly like this.  However it is fully a military enitity, therefore it doesn't solicit volunteers outside the military, and is not connected to the Red Cross in anyform.  So the Red Cross asking/sending volunteers has nothing to do with DART.


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## Fishbone Jones (31 Aug 2005)

Go here:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/operations/DART/back_e.asp

Besides the US Army Reserve and National Guards probably have better equipment and much more of it than we could ever dream of providing. It certainly doesn't stop us from asking what we can do though, but if we haven't announced anything yet, I doubt we will. An absolute shame that our narrow minded leaders can't get past petty bickering and opinion polls. Almost like 9/11, in our responses, all over again.


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## Cloud Cover (31 Aug 2005)

I thoughtthe defence update had DART being stood down and replaced with something less military in nature? Or is that longer term?


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## Jed (31 Aug 2005)

In 1992 or 93 Cold Lake ( and probably other Bases) sent down a bunch of Airfield Engrs to Florida to assist in cleaning up after a Hurricane. I don't think the DART was stood up at that time and 4 AES was pretty new, maybe not even stood up yet. I believe the CF still does a lot of cross training with the Airfield Engrs and the Air National Guard and PRIME RIBS and PRIME BEEF units.

I wonder if any intiatives along this line are in the pipe ?


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## Old Sweat (31 Aug 2005)

I had emailed my MP (Conservative Party of Canada) about this and he responded that Canada had officially offered assistance. The Americans (presumably Homeland Security) had declined to accept any outside help as they felt they have sufficient resources to deal with the emergency. However the Canadian Red Cross is providing support to the American Red Cross in response to a request from that agency.


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## Cloud Cover (31 Aug 2005)

At the least, they should take up Venezuela's offers ... all of them. They'd be crazy not to.


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## Armymedic (31 Aug 2005)

If the US Gov't asks (which is unlikely they will do) for us to send down military assets to assist, then the Gov't may consider sending DART or atleast DART like assets (ie water purification or construct engs).

The Louisiana and Mississippi NG are larger then our entire Army, and as recceguy mentioned, they have everthing we have and then some.

Civilian agencies should be furiously packing and sending people and stuff down now though...

As for the rest, money is the best we can do to help.


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## lou133 (31 Aug 2005)

I suppose that USA has enough resources to deal with these situation, it's far from being poor with no infrastructures, but it's more for the principle of offering help, just having good intention


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## The_Falcon (31 Aug 2005)

lou133 said:
			
		

> I suppose that USA has enough resources to deal with these situation, it's far from being poor with no infrastructures, but it's more for the principle of offering help, just having good intention



Exactly! As someone else mentioned good friends don't wait to be asked.   Even though they obviously have way more resources than us, it fosters goodwill to offer some help.


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## medicineman (31 Aug 2005)

I remember that a whole pile of assets went down to Florida for Hurricane Andrew back in the early 90's - I think the President said something to the effect that seeing as half of Florida is Canadian, perhaps you should help out a bit... : ;D

MM


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## edadian (31 Aug 2005)

If the US does all the resources it needs why isn't getting to New Orleans? The lawlessness in the city could easily be dealt with with a Stryker Brigade. Amphibious vehicles moving through the flooded streets would be better then boats.

As for the National Guard how much of these States' Guards are in Iraq? 

DART could be sent if asked for but sending it without waiting to be asked is a technical act of war. When did the US National Guard get our water purification equipment? Last I heard no other military in the world had kit like it.


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## The_Falcon (31 Aug 2005)

edadian said:
			
		

> If the US does all the resources it needs why isn't getting to New Orleans? The lawlessness in the city could easily be dealt with with a Stryker Brigade. Amphibious vehicles moving through the flooded streets would be better then boats.
> 
> As for the National Guard how much of these States' Guards are in Iraq?
> 
> DART could be sent if asked for but sending it without waiting to be asked is a technical act of war. When did the US National Guard get our water purification equipment? Last I heard no other military in the world had kit like it.



I have been watching this most of the day, the big reasons why they can't equipment to the area is most of the roads into New Orleans are ruined, and the water ways (Mississipi River) are blocked by debris (parts of buildings, trees, boats etc.).  Also no has suggested sending help without asking first.


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## edadian (31 Aug 2005)

Hence why I suggested amphibious vehicles to get past the knocked out bridges. Bush has just said he is sending the Iwo Jima groups and the Comfort. Marines will have the amphibious kit needed to get into New Orleans.


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## The_Falcon (31 Aug 2005)

edadian said:
			
		

> Hence why I suggested amphibious vehicles to get past the knocked out bridges. Bush has just said he is sending the Iwo Jima groups and the Comfort. Marines will have the amphibious kit needed to get into New Orleans.



Yeah I heard you the first time, problem is the WATER is not clear, its full of debris that is blocking anything bigger than a pleasure boat.   The army engineers they were interviewing talked about this. They can't get anykind of ground/water vehicle to the breaches until the debris is removed. Why do you think they are only using helicopters right now?


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## Armymedic (31 Aug 2005)

edadian said:
			
		

> If the US does all the resources it needs why isn't getting to New Orleans? The lawlessness in the city could easily be dealt with with a Stryker Brigade. Amphibious vehicles moving through the flooded streets would be better then boats.
> 
> As for the National Guard how much of these States' Guards are in Iraq?
> 
> DART could be sent if asked for but sending it without waiting to be asked is a technical act of war. When did the US National Guard get our water purification equipment? Last I heard no other military in the world had kit like it.



We have a common saying within the military;

"Stay within your arcs"

You have little idea about what you are talking about here. 
First, of course other militaries have ROWPU units, and in particularly an army as experienced in desert warfare as the US army, in fact they have companies of water specialists who do nothing but.
Second the NG has to be given the "aid to civil power rights" to assist police to prevent the looting, but I am sure a bit of looting in New Orleans will be sorted out once they are able to evacuate the city.
Third, the states of Louisiana and Mississippi will have more of a problem housing and feeding the millions of people who are now homeless...the logistics of this will be stagering.
Next, Amphibious armour vehs, while designed to swim, don't very well, and need a lot of prep for water. They also are not the best thing to load up with civilians for evacuation. Further Strykers (like our LAV 3s) are not amphibious.
Also, the Marine battle groups have lots of helicopters and hovercraft, which are much more use then armoured vehicles.
Finally our DART...is designed around taking care of a small 2nd or 3rd world population (around 1000 people), not for a disaster of this magnitude in a first world country.

There is no doubt our gov't has quietly offered any help that is needed. Our military will be of little use, and only in specialized areas, which FEMA will ask for if needed.

Like I said earlier, if you want to help, give money to the Red Cross.


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## AmmoTech90 (31 Aug 2005)

edadian said:
			
		

> If the US does all the resources it needs why isn't getting to New Orleans? The lawlessness in the city could easily be dealt with with a Stryker Brigade. Amphibious vehicles moving through the flooded streets would be better then boats.



Strykers aren't amphibious.



			
				edadian said:
			
		

> As for the National Guard how much of these States' Guards are in Iraq?



LA has around 10500 Army NG, 3000 are in Iraq, so that leaves 6500.  And how was this brigade sized formation supposed to deploy back to the US on less than a weeks notice?  



			
				edadian said:
			
		

> DART could be sent if asked for but sending it without waiting to be asked is a technical act of war. When did the US National Guard get our water purification equipment? Last I heard no other military in the world had kit like it.



I have seen the USMC has ROWPUs and mini-ROWPUs that do pretty much the same job.  They come in 3000 and 600 gallon per hour varieties.  A quick search on the web shows that all the military including National Guard deploy this kit, in fact there are NG units dedicated to it. http://www.iowanationalguard.com/pages/Pub_Affair/news/SOLDIERSFROMTHEIOWANATIONALGUARD1555thQUARTERMASTERDETACHMENTRELEASEDFROMACTIVEDUTYANDRETURNINGHOMEMARCH_29_2004.html

Armymedic got there first...


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## HollywoodHitman (31 Aug 2005)

Vancouver Fire Department (IAFF Loc. 18) are sending their Disaster Response Team. Just got the phone call from my buddy who is on his way tonight.


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## 1feral1 (31 Aug 2005)

Look how generous Boston was after the Halifax explosion of 06 Dec 1917. To this day Halifax presents Boston with a huge Christmas tree every year in appreciation.

This hurricane is a tragedy to which we will only know how bad in the weeks and months to come.

Wes


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## Armymedic (31 Aug 2005)

Global news had a story about this very thing...

the short answer is that help has been offered, but no request have been sent from the US. Got to give them a day or two to figure out what they need.

http://www.canada.com/national/globalnational/story.html?id=06c713e1-c88f-48a8-8ddf-da7368f7bc4b

How is Canada helping its southern neighbour?
   

Canadian Press 


August 31, 2005

TORONTO -- Canadian leaders are offering to send help to the United States in the aftermath of the devastation wrought by hurricane Katrina.

Ontario is looking into whether its medical and search-and-rescue personnel can help, while B.C.'s urban search and rescue teams are ready to go, waiting for a green light to deploy in flood-devastated areas of the U.S. Gulf Coast.

Deputy Prime Minister Anne McLellan, who has said Canadian health authorities have offered to send emergency medical supplies, was scheduled to discuss Canada's role in the hurricane aftermath in Edmonton late Wednesday.

Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty said he has asked the American ambassador to Canada how the province can assist in rescue and recovery efforts.

"We stand at the ready to assist," said McGuinty, who said Ontario could help with hydro crews and with its Emergency Medical Assistance Team.

Relief efforts by Canadians in disaster zones are largely organized in Ottawa but McGuinty said Wednesday he wants to know from David Wilkins what specifically Ontario can do.

McGuinty's decision to reach out came as provincial opposition parties were criticizing the premier for not moving fast enough to offer help to flooded areas in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama.

At least 125 people have died in the flooding, and New Orleans is a swamp, with about 80 per cent of the city under water.

Provincial Conservative Leader John Tory questioned whether the premier is acting fast enough. He urged McGuinty to "dispatch those people and get them on their way" because it might still take a few days before it's decided exactly how they can help.

McLellan, the federal cabinet minister, said Tuesday she told Michael Chertoff, the American secretary of homeland security, that Canada is ready to provide assistance if needed. She said Canadian health authorities have offered to send emergency medical supplies from the country's emergency stockpile.

Officials in McLellan's office said as of Wednesday afternoon the Americans hadn't made any requests for help.

© The Canadian Press 2005


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## HollywoodHitman (31 Aug 2005)

Vancouver's Team has been on Standby since lastnight........This is CURRENT info as of about 1500hrs Pac time......They're leaving tonight.


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## FormerHorseGuard (31 Aug 2005)

i am sure people like the DART team would be requested but till the local people at all levels of government in the Southern States, then in Washington, then Ottawa decide what  is needed and what can be delivered in a timing matter not much can be done.
they are sending naval ships from the east coast of the States but they are looking at up to 5 days before they can be in place. 
Major Airports to land aircraft at that are capable of taking the DART Team to the area is not ready for traffic. It will be days before they  know what  they  need or where they  need it. I think the Canadian Government if and when they are asked they  will send what  is requested and only  then will it be sent.

As for APCs being used to stop looting, that  will not work, have to clear roads, cleaned of trash and other things before you can drive down them even in shallow water,  deeper water..............small boats would be of more use. 
Looting is going tobe a problem for days to come, and the biggest probelm is what  do you do with the people once you cuff and holding them. no place to take them the jails are flooded and the immates already  there are sitting on over passes and bridges awaiting something or some place to go.


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## AmmoTech90 (31 Aug 2005)

FormerHorseGuard said:
			
		

> Looting is going tobe a problem for days to come, and the biggest probelm is what  do you do with the people once you cuff and holding them. no place to take them the jails are flooded and the immates already  there are sitting on over passes and bridges awaiting something or some place to go.



Handcuff them to bike racks


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## Kat Stevens (31 Aug 2005)

edadian said:
			
		

> If the US does all the resources it needs why isn't getting to New Orleans? The lawlessness in the city could easily be dealt with with a Stryker Brigade. Amphibious vehicles moving through the flooded streets would be better then boats.
> 
> As for the National Guard how much of these States' Guards are in Iraq?
> 
> DART could be sent if asked for but sending it without waiting to be asked is a technical act of war. When did the US National Guard get our water purification equipment? Last I heard no other military in the world had kit like it.


US army has had the same, or at least very similar, water purification equipment to ours for years. How do I know? 'Cause I was there when their design teams came and looked at my ROWPUs.


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## Slim (31 Aug 2005)

edadian said:
			
		

> Hence why I suggested amphibious vehicles to get past the knocked out bridges. Bush has just said he is sending the Iwo Jima groups and the Comfort. Marines will have the amphibious kit needed to get into New Orleans.



Way outside your arcs here...

TTime to take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth...Either that or stick to the cadet forums please.

Slim
STAFF


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## Roger (31 Aug 2005)

I would not think having Canadian soldiers walking the streets arresting looters would be a sight Americans would like to see, but who says we cannot go there and help clean up or fill sanbags.


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## Kat Stevens (31 Aug 2005)

I don't remember too many US troops sandbagging next to me when the Red River barfed it's guts, or 50 miles of high tension wires fell down in Quebec...Just a thought, not looking for a bollocking here.

Kat


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## George Wallace (31 Aug 2005)

From American sources:



> Military providing full-scale response to hurricane relief effort
> by Donna Miles
> American Forces Press Service
> http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123011498
> ...


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## DBA (1 Sep 2005)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> I don't remember too many US troops sandbagging next to me when the Red River barfed it's guts, or 50 miles of high tension wires fell down in Quebec...Just a thought, not looking for a bollocking here.



There were Americans helping in the rebuilding of the power distribution system. And it was more like 3,000 km of VHV lines, 400 km of HV lines and 1,500 VHV pylons were destroyed or needing repair. Not to mention 26,000 broken posts (the wooden poles),  4,500 transformers and 8,800 isolators needed to be replaced. That was in Quebec alone, the storm also brought down lines in Ontario and parts of the north eastern states. 

Hydro workers from both Canada and the US have crossed the border on numerous times to help repair the damage from ice storms. For example the one in Rochester, NY on March 3, 1991.


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## Gunner98 (1 Sep 2005)

The US Medical Corps has 192,000 people, Canada has 2,800.  I await their call for help!

Perhaps they will lend us some aircraft to move the DART!


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## Kat Stevens (1 Sep 2005)

DBA said:
			
		

> There were Americans helping in the rebuilding of the power distribution system. And it was more like 3,000 km of VHV lines, 400 km of HV lines and 1,500 VHV pylons were destroyed or needing repair. Not to mention 26,000 broken posts (the wooden poles),  4,500 transformers and 8,800 isolators needed to be replaced. That was in Quebec alone, the storm also brought down lines in Ontario and parts of the north eastern states.
> 
> Hydro workers from both Canada and the US have crossed the border on numerous times to help repair the damage from ice storms. For example the one in Rochester, NY on March 3, 1991.


Sigh. Yes, I know all this. My brother is a firefighter in BC and went to NYC on his own dime to help out post 9-11.  My point was in reference to troops in particular, not Americans in General. Cross border cooperation has always been great at civilian agency level.  And I said 50 miles in the interest of brevity, didn't want to write a term paper.


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## Armymedic (1 Sep 2005)

Gunner98 said:
			
		

> The US Medical Corps has 192,000 people, Canada has 2,800.   I await their call for help!
> 
> Perhaps they will lend us some aircraft to move the DART!



Well techically we could drive down there...And take 1 Cdn Fd Hosp as well. 

How many trucks does it take to move the complete FD hosp? Not for me, but for all those others who think its as easy as just getting into a bus and driving the 24-36 hours to the disaster zone.

edit to add:

http://www.ottawasun.com/News/National/2005/09/01/pf-1196989.html

By MARIA McCLINTOCK, Parliamentary Bureau

CANADA has offered to supply the U.S. with troops, military engineers and water purification expertise to assist in relief efforts in devastated areas hit by Hurricane Katrina. 

Gen. Rick Hillier spoke to his U.S. counterpart Gen. Richard B. Myers late yesterday and made the offer, confirmed Steve Jurgutis, spokesman for Defence Minister Bill Graham. 

America's Health Human Services department also contacted the Canadian Public Health Agency yesterday and asked for an inventory of medical supplies and personnel that could be provided if needed. 

But Canada has yet to receive a request for assistance, said Deputy Prime Minister Anne McLellan. 

"There may very well be things that they will need, whether in the short term or as the days go ahead. For example, clean water is at a premium now," McLellan told Sun Media last night. 

McLellan called it an unfolding disaster of "enormous proportions." 

"We are monitoring the situation very carefully ... we need to work closely with the United States so that we understand what they need the most, at the right time," she said. 

'DIFFICULT TIME' 

Prime Minister Paul Martin vowed Canada will provide any emergency help our U.S. neighbours need. 

"During this most difficult time, Canada stands with you, and we are ready to provide whatever support you may require in the days, weeks and months ahead," he said. 

Canadian Red Cross spokeswoman Suzanne Charest said relief workers will face some of the most difficult conditions ever. 

"We are sending some of our most highly trained disaster response volunteers. It could be well over 100," said Charest, adding volunteers will begin leaving Canada as early as today. 

"We know it's going to be a hardship posting. Conditions will be tough. They will be dealing with people who are grieving, who have faced an extraordinary amount of loss, so they have to be trained to deal with this sort of thing." 

maria.mcclintock@tor.sunpub.com


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## Armymedic (1 Sep 2005)

Learned something on CNN..

(paraphrasing) US NG troops can work along side civil police as they are considered State troops under the state governors control and do not need special permissions to assist as Federal or active duty troops would need.


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## George Wallace (1 Sep 2005)

Here is an interesting site for satellite photos (Before/after):

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/new-orleans-imagery.htm


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## Devlin (1 Sep 2005)

Top Canadian general says military stands ready to help U.S. if asked at 13:51 on September 1, 2005, EST.

OTTAWA (CP) - Gen. Rick Hillier says the Canadian military is ready to respond immediately if the United States asks for help in the aftermath of hurricane Katrina.


Hillier says he told U.S. ambassador David Wilkins that there are contingency plans. Although he says the Americans have most or all they need to help with recovery from the devastating hurricane, there may be things they need in addition.

Prime Minister Paul Martin told U.S. President George W. Bush by telephone as well that Canada will help in any way needed.

Hurricane Katrina hit the southern U.S. coast Monday and the resulting flooding has submerged 80 per cent of New Orleans, killing possibly thousands and leaving thousands more stranded. 

http://www.940news.com/nouvelles.php?cat=23&id=90137


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## Britney Spears (1 Sep 2005)

I've been reading some of the on site blogs(Interdictor, etc) in NO and this is turning into a SH!TSTORM. 

- Volunteers from the surrounding areas are being turned away by the authorities, after a lot of the rescue crafts have been taking small arms fire, presumably from looters.

- CNN, NBC newscrews are operating under the protection of PSD/PMC teams, their executives consider the area to be a WARZONE.  . (source:http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=televisionNews&storyID=2005-09-01T061420Z_01_HO005371_RTRIDST_0_TELEVISION-KATRINA-DC.XML)

- Police, NG, helicopters taking small arms fire.

- A LOT of eye witness testimony to rape, murder, sometimes both. Armed robbery, carjackings are the norm.

Firefighters? Water purification? It sounds like they need the Marines and the 82nd ABN in there first. You guys who are heading down there, for god's sake be careful. I'd HATE to be down there unarmed.


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## Infanteer (1 Sep 2005)

Hobbes had it right - when law and order don't exist, life is nasty, brutish, short and cruel.


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## Gunner98 (1 Sep 2005)

Armymedic said:
			
		

> Well techically we could drive down there...And take 1 Cdn Fd Hosp as well.
> How many trucks does it take to move the complete FD hosp? Not for me.



About 30 truck loads to move complete Fd Hosp- once you get it there we will have to be able to man it. After you take away pers going on standby with the DART, those going on BTE, we will need some augmentation.  Driving will take about 4 days. More likely a 30-bed ASC on 15 trucks or so.

USS Comfort provides 400 beds.

Other support may take 2 weeks by ship from West Coast.

Duration of commitment will become an issue as Roto 5 HSS training is scheduled to start in Nov 05.


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## Britney Spears (1 Sep 2005)

I'm not sure if there should be a more general Katrina thread, but here goes...

<a href=http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2005-09-01-katrina-troops_x.htm>U.S. won't send Iraq troops(LA ARNG in Iraq) home to help with hurricane</a>

I'm not sure to what extent this is true, but I can't imagine what must be going through the minds of those troops, stuck in Iraq while their homes are flooded/looted and their families are at the mercy of Kalashnikov toting thugs.


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## Armymedic (1 Sep 2005)

There is a brigade of NG to redeploy from Iraq in 2 weeks as mentioned in the article. 

CNN had interviews with a SSGT and a Capt from the unit on this aft. They are not going to be redeployed home _early_ to assist. Mind you, I would not be too sure they would be much use in the effort as thier main focus would be to find out who and what they have left to come home to.

As for being overseas while a disaster is hitting home, there were a few 2 VP troops in Bosnia during the Red River Floods.


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## Britney Spears (1 Sep 2005)

> As for being overseas while a disaster is hitting home, there were a few 2 VP troops in Bosnia during the Red River Floods.



Understood, but there are reports coming in of snipers shooting at hospitals, possibly to cover drug addicts searching for narcotics, to guys opening up with RPKs at the rescue choppers coming into the Superdome, to roving bands of looters with AKs hijacking aid trucks. Were the red river floods quite as serious? Even if half these reports are true, I'm not sure if I would be able to handle it......


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## Armymedic (1 Sep 2005)

obvious, great difference in scale. 

I haven't heard about AKs and RPGs being fired, they (CNN) have reported alot of shootings and sniper activities.


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## FormerHorseGuard (1 Sep 2005)

i do not think it would be a good thing to send FD hosptial and equipment , too time comsuing and too large to set up and operate. It would be easier to send Doctors, nurses and medics to help man the hospital ship, local hospitals because the man power that is there now will be exhausted soon and need fresh shifts and fresh blood  working. No one wants to have a overly tired doctor working on them. 

Combat engineers to help man the heavy  equipment, the army  can rent or lease cheaper then it would be drive or truck it there. Clerks to help with the in take of people needing help. 
Helicopter pilots, they are flying a llot of UH 1 choppers there still, our guys could take some control there and assit in rescue flights

Drivers for the army  trucks and equipment,  lots  of those needed I would think.

Last time they  send a supply ship  with lumber and stuff, the sailors and engineers helped rebuild schools and shelters for the aged  because it was needed.  

they  do not need to bring the weapons and ammo i am sure the US would provide troops and fire power to protect the Canadian troops soit does not look like foreign army  in the States with weapons and stuff. there is lots Canada , the Canadian Forces and private people can do if they are asked but we have to be asked first , we cannot just go and set up a camp and invade the States.


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## The Bread Guy (1 Sep 2005)

At one level, we shouldn't be entirely surprised at the level of violence in NO - even though the tourism lit doesn't mention it, but even dry, the city is a VERY violent place.  Happy to get this confirmed by any medics reading, but I heard that the US Army Medic School at Ft. Sam Houston in San Antonio TX (great Military Medical Museum to take in, if you're by) sends its students on rotations to New Orleans emergency wards to learn how to deal with GSW & stab wounds.  Lose the cops, lose control, and you get what you had before, cubed...

Let's see if this sets anybody off:  is it uncharitable of me to hope, this early in, that when Paul Martin called Dubya today, the last thing he said to Mr. President was, "if you happen to need lotsa softwood to help rebuild, let's talk"?  We took almost all the planes after 9-11, we jumped with both feet early into Afghanistan, and we STILL can't sell wood in the States....  (I live in a part of the world that still, rightly or wrongly, relies on the wood industry to a large extent).

<<TONY>>


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## Gunner98 (1 Sep 2005)

FFGH says, "i do not think it would be a good thing to send FD hosptial and equipment , too time comsuing and too large to set up and operate."  

This is not the Fd Hosp of old, surgery is open within 6 hours of arrival, 18 hours - the entire facility is functional. Facility requires 200 x 200 m. Self sufficient with water, electricity, and air conditioning.


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## Wolfe (2 Sep 2005)

A couple of hours ago i read in the news that the Canadian army is ready to deploy some 200 soldiers in New Orleans. I Can assure you i read this, i was surprised, unless the news did some mistake but i wonder.


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## Gunner98 (2 Sep 2005)

DART = Approx. 200


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## FredDaHead (2 Sep 2005)

> *Source: www.stratfor.com*
> U.S.: Foreign Aid Will Be Accepted
> September 02 2005 01 42  GMT
> 
> The U.S. State Department announced Sept. 1 that it will accept foreign aid in response to Hurricane Katrina. Specifically, "no offer that can help alleviate the suffering of the people in the afflicted area will be refused." Offers have been received from Russia, Japan, Canada, France, Honduras, Germany, Venezuela, Jamaica, Australia, the United Kingdom, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Greece, Hungary, Colombia, the Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Mexico, China, South Korea, Israel, the United Arab Emirates, NATO and the Organization of American States.



I guess that means DART (or other pers) could be heading out soon? Considering we're the closest (after Mexico) nation to offer aid, it'd make sense to have us send people first. But since when has US policy made sense?


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## Wolfe (2 Sep 2005)

Personally i think and i wish DART to help out the US i think its gonna help the relationship between the countries. And besides that, we are neighbours.

Wolf


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## FormerHorseGuard (2 Sep 2005)

i was thinking more of transport time, too long to get it there,  time and area to set it up in,  not much land free from water and rumble. The US army and other forces can provide the hospital and we could provide staff to help run it, saves on shipping time and such. they are already  have sent ina hospital ship or its on the way 

but if they send it and it works well great. I was thinking other things might be needed more


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## Zartan (2 Sep 2005)

I wonder if RCMP have been offered to help. They sent some to Haiti, and weren't a few sent to Afghanistan or Iraq? Given the state of the city at the moment, an RCMP force would do well to supplement the Americans in NO. Let the RCMP and American police organise and protect civilian camps and refuges, while freeing up the National Guard for rescue, repair, and Anti-a**hole operations. Also, it would seem less likely for foreign police to participate in the looting: http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001051261 - rather hard to load a PC and TV into your carry-on bag.


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## Scoobie Newbie (2 Sep 2005)

Didn't Canada and the US sign some kind of "treaty" that would allow easier access of military across either one's border in case of emergency, including troops?


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## The Bread Guy (2 Sep 2005)

CNN just showed a reporter speaking from one of the refugee centres being guarded by National Guardsmen.  The reporter says the trooper told him, "If you don't have at least a rifle, it's not safe to go in there - in fact, we've pulled out because we can't keep control."  The reporter went in and counted 11 bodies just visible in plain sight.  Other networks are showing reporters talking to people who are asking, "if the reporters made it here, why hasn't the military, the Red Cross or any other aid agency been here yet?"

Good question.


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## cgyflames01 (2 Sep 2005)

http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/National/2005/09/02/1198947-sun.html Now this is the Calgary Sun so it's true most of the time.


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## Springroll (2 Sep 2005)

All of this is very saddening and I hope we send some people down there soon. 
The people down there need food and water and air conditioning, and they are not getting it. I wish GWB would have sent some supplies down days ago before people, both young and old, started dying. 

This whole situation just breaks my heart.


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## The_Falcon (2 Sep 2005)

CFL said:
			
		

> Didn't Canada and the US sign some kind of "treaty" that would allow easier access of military across either one's border in case of emergency, including troops?



I seem to recall the same thing and a pretty lengthy thread on the subject.


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## Old Sweat (2 Sep 2005)

The arrangements date back to the Second World War and form the basis for the basic North American defence plan. I used to deal with this when I was in J3 Plans, but that was many years ago so I am hazy on the details. However, for example any of you who have trained in the US at places like Yakima did so under these arrangements.


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## Scoobie Newbie (2 Sep 2005)

I seem to recall this came into effect as a result of 9/11 (maybe wrong but it was fairly recent).


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## The_Falcon (2 Sep 2005)

was this inline with what you were looking for CFL

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/Newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=509


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## Scoobie Newbie (2 Sep 2005)

Yes that was it.  Thanks.


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## Scoobie Newbie (2 Sep 2005)

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1125597613680_121006813?s_name=&no_ads=

So they will go if asked.


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## Zartan (2 Sep 2005)

Well, now they are prepping four vessels for aid in New Orleans:
http://www.mytelus.com/news/article.do?pageID=canada_home&articleID=2020366

It's a start, four ships and 1000 personnel.


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## Scoobie Newbie (2 Sep 2005)

"Operation Union"  -how quaint

Never thought I'd see the day we would be help the US in a state so far from our borders.


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## BOSNwife (2 Sep 2005)

My husband is leaving on one of the Navy ships on Tueaday. He called me this morning.


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## kocrdoug (2 Sep 2005)

My unit started doing phone calls for availability last night, but no actual Warning Orders have been issued. I doubt it'll get as far as calling up CDN Reserves to deploy for this, but it's good to be prepared.


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## Teddy Ruxpin (2 Sep 2005)

CFL said:
			
		

> Didn't Canada and the US sign some kind of "treaty" that would allow easier access of military across either one's border in case of emergency, including troops?



There is an agreement that allows access on request- I was involved on the peripheries with NORTHCOM and the BPG, particularly in connection with a potential earthquake in BC.  Such assistance is, by it's very nature, unarmed.  I cannot see, for instance, Canadian soldiers (or police for that matter) carrying weapons in the US.  Similarly, American soldiers would not carry weapons here.



> Never thought I'd see the day we would be help the US in a state so far from our borders.


  We did in Florida some years back - it's been done before.  Oddly, I cannot recall a time when US military assets were used in Canada (although they were offered for OP PEREGRINE, in the form of Herc tankers).



> My unit started doing phone calls for availability last night, but no actual Warning Orders have been issued. I doubt it'll get as far as calling up CDN Reserves to deploy for this, but it's good to be prepared.


   The odds of combat arms PRes units being deployed is practically zero.


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## LF(CMO) (3 Sep 2005)

I called the Union Hall today ie IBEW Local 258 (Vancouver)  All IBEW Locals have been contacted across Canada as to availability of Linemen for restoration of Power etc.  BC Hydro has offered help as well.  The word so far is that not much is being done yet until the situation stabillizes somewhat.  Our work is, of course, high risk even under normal conditions.  There have been 13 LInemen killed in the US this year, mostly in the southern states.  According to powerlineman.com some of the nearby states are already dispatching people to some of the fringe areas.  

 It may be of interest that Hydro Quebec has the closest relationship with the US states than the other Canadian Provinces.  They reportedly had over 30 crews working in Florida last year.  During the Ice storm, Hydro Quebec used almost all US Line Crews!


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## bravo2 (3 Sep 2005)

Canada Has lot's of expertise in different fields. The Rcmp identification section if ask could help the local authorities in identifying bodies. I believe that the military contribution will be a logistical assistance i.e. help in food distribution,medical assistance etc ... Its is very unlikely that foreign soldiers would be selected to assist to restore civil order. Canadian heavy airlift transportation is very limited that may cause problem if we are trying to send equipment over there


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## pbi (4 Sep 2005)

The Heavy Urban Search and Rescue (HUSAR) Unit, based in Vancouver and including VFD heavy rescue personnel, etc has been in the area for several days now. IIRC, it has been placed in charge of S&R ops in one of the parishes adjoining the City of New Orleans. We have at least one more of these units in Toronto (based on the TFD), so it represents a very important capability that Canada has. I am very glad to see us getting involved.

I really hope, however, that I do  not see a repeat of the disgusting, pouty, foot-stamping behaviour by Canadians that followed 9-11, because "_the Americans didn 't say thanks_". As far as I know, we do good to do good, not to get stroked. Whether we get on CNN and get thanked by Bush, or not, is really beside the point IMHO. We are helping people who need it very badly, and I'm pretty sure they are grateful. That's enough.

Cheers


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## honestyrules (6 Sep 2005)

Apparently, the 1000 troops are gone.

http://www.herald.ns.ca/breaking/2aftupdates07.html

This doesn't include Dart personnel.


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## Armymedic (6 Sep 2005)

delavan said:
			
		

> Apparently, the 1000 troops are gone.
> 
> http://www.herald.ns.ca/breaking/2aftupdates07.html
> 
> This doesn't include Dart personnel.



The media uses "troops" to inaccurately describe anyone in uniform...

In this case its the crews of the 3 Navy and 1 Coast Guard vessel, plus 30 engineers from 4 ESR in Gagetown. Which BTW has to link up with an USN refueler for sustainment.


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## tomahawk6 (7 Sep 2005)

pbi said:
			
		

> The Heavy Urban Search and Rescue (HUSAR) Unit, based in Vancouver and including VFD heavy rescue personnel, etc has been in the area for several days now. IIRC, it has been placed in charge of S&R ops in one of the parishes adjoining the City of New Orleans. We have at least one more of these units in Toronto (based on the TFD), so it represents a very important capability that Canada has. I am very glad to see us getting involved.
> 
> I really hope, however, that I do   not see a repeat of the disgusting, pouty, foot-stamping behaviour by Canadians that followed 9-11, because "_the Americans didn 't say thanks_". As far as I know, we do good to do good, not to get stroked. Whether we get on CNN and get thanked by Bush, or not, is really beside the point IMHO. We are helping people who need it very badly, and I'm pretty sure they are grateful. That's enough.
> 
> ...


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## Slim (8 Sep 2005)

*Our army too tiny for job: Experts*

U.S. military needed if major disaster strikes

http://www.torontosun.com/News/Canada/2005/09/08/1207139-sun.html

OTTAWA -- Canada's tiny army couldn't muster 40,000 troops and would have to ask the U.S. military for help if a disaster of the magnitude of the New Orleans catastrophe struck a Canadian city, defence experts agreed yesterday. 

"Unfortunately the resources that are required for coping with disaster are inadequate," retired Gen. Lew MacKenzie told Sun Media. 

Colin Kenny, the Liberal chairman of the Senate defence committee agreed, saying residents of Canada's cities with larger populations than New Orleans have no idea how thin the country's emergency resources are stretched. 

"Canadians just assume somebody's going to take care of them," said Kenny, whose committee has studied the nation's fragile frontlines. 

The U.S. military has put about 40,000 troops on the ground in Greater New Orleans to assist thousands of people who are still in the devastated area, help fix the levee system and restore order. 

MacKenzie said Canada couldn't put half the infantry manpower together in the event of a disaster in cities with populations much bigger than New Orleans, including Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver and Ottawa. 

"There are about 4,000 in the three infantry battalions and then the armoured and artillery would add in less than 10,000. If you add the reserves, maybe 5,000-8,000 so you're still under 20,000," said MacKenzie, who advised the Ontario government after 9/11. 

The biggest worry for disaster planners is Vancouver, where a severe earthquake could cause widespread casualties and knock out communications, utilities and other infrastructure. 

"We will have different disasters from New Orleans and we have not invested in the resources needed to assure the safety of our own citizens," Kenny said. 

'A SHOCKING LACK' 

Peter MacKay, the Conservative critic for public safety, called it a "shocking lack of priorities and understanding of the probability, if not the inevitability, that (a disaster of this scale) could happen in Canada." 

Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Minister Anne McLellan said Ottawa has worked with its provincial and municipal partners to prepare for the worst. 

How well Canada could cope with a catastrophe like Katrina is "hypothetical," but McLellan said Canada has effectively managed other major disasters like floods, raging fires and hurricanes. 

"We believe we have put together a system that will allow us to respond, with other levels of government and the private sector, to any emergency with which we are confronted," she said. 
end.


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## BOSNwife (8 Sep 2005)

CFL said:
			
		

> "Operation Union"   -how quaint



OP Unison. You forgot the 's'.


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## Springroll (8 Sep 2005)

S_Baker said:
			
		

> Just a question.....how many people have a 72 hour kit, evacuation plan, etc?



Well we are now set up for a week and a half of food in my house. We have a water system in our house that holds about 2 gallons and our R.O system in the kitchen holds 5 gallons. We also have a set up with two of our neighbours in case something happens, so we know that all of us are okay no matter what. Our evac plan is immediately head for Ottawa..LOL  ;D


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