# Ordered to work on days off?



## Quantum (3 Oct 2014)

I'm a reservist with the Canadian Military. 6 years in, great at what I do and I love the work.

Problem: My current (new) staff *loves* memos; for everything...

QUESTION: Can I be ordered to write multiple memos, from home, while not being paid? I'd understand if I was asking for something (time off or to be excused from a commitment etc) but this is not the case. They want memos because I was unable to make 2 (very last minute) work requests.

With kids, family, 2 dogs and a wife that works odd shifts, my life is heavily scheduled. I can't take on a work commitment with 2 to 5 days notice. So, can I be ordered to use my own free time to explain, in memo format why  I could not make it?


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## TwoTonShackle (3 Oct 2014)

Technically you can only disobey a direct command while you are subject to the NDA.  As a reservist you are only subject to that code while on Class A, B, or C service, or when on military property.  So could you be ordered to perform a task while not being employed to do so, I would say no, not legally.  If that is your intent, maybe you should respond with your intention to draft the memos first thing on the next training night.  

Personally, I would take the 5 minutes and write the memos.


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## George Wallace (3 Oct 2014)

Quantum said:
			
		

> I'm a reservist with the Canadian Military. 6 years in, great at what I do and I love the work.
> 
> Problem: My current (new) staff *loves* memos; for everything...
> 
> ...



This is a joke, RIGHT?  You really are not serious?

You seriously are asking a question about having to write a memo on your own time?  

As a member of the CAF, including the  RESERVES, one will from time to time have to write a memo for any number of reasons.  That does not always have to be done during working hours.  It is a form of correspondence and can be done at any time.  

If you are such a thin skinned person who can not sit down and take a few moments to write a memo to explain your absence from a Parade Night, then perhaps you should reconsider your employment in the Reserves.  I am sure that the CoC WILL NOT contemplate allowing you the opportunity to sign a Pay Sheet for sitting at home drafting a memo requesting your RELEASE.  

Shake your head.

Write the memo and stop complaining.  

[Edit to add:  You took the time to register onto this site and create a topic.  In that time, you could have taken your preciously limited time and drafted your memo.]


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## Quantum (3 Oct 2014)

When my choice is either A) play with my kids for 30 minutes that day or B) right yet another memo (in this case 2) then yes, I have to ask myself if this is something I really want to do.

If, as you say, I had to write one "from time to time", I wouldn't care nor have I ever questioned or thought about it. When memos are now being requested of me on a weekly or bi-weekly basis, then I start to reconsider the willingness of sitting at home and writing yet another. We don't have the luxury of a 9 to 5 job, time spent with the family is precious and I won't have it taken away; especially not by weekly unpaid work. Currently, life does not allow much down time.

Your answer was not helpful in the least; it is not a question of writing "a memo" but of writing them (on a now) regular basis.

If you re-read my question, you will notice that it is in fact a question;  not a complaint. The previous answer (by TwoTonShackle) was quite helpful;  I have emailed my COC and asked if I can write them when I next come in on Friday; they have agreed.

I did not need a finger pointing, self-righteous attitude; I simply needed a straight answer to give me a little direction.


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## Monsoon (3 Oct 2014)

TwoTonShackle said:
			
		

> Technically you can only disobey a direct command while you are subject to the NDA.  As a reservist you are only subject to that code while on Class A, B, or C service, or when on military property.  So could you be ordered to perform a task while not being employed to do so, I would say no, not legally.


This is completely incorrect. While it is true that a person can only be charged under the disciplinary system for something that they do or fail to do as ordered while subject to the NDA, there are two things the chain of command CAN do:

- Give you an order on one period that you're subject to the NDA (draft a memo, appear here next Saturday, etc) and charge you the next time you are subject to the NDA for failing to do it; and

- Place you on remedial measures leading (eventually) to release for not doing your job, regardless of whether you were subject to the NDA in between or not.



> Personally, I would take the 5 minutes and write the memos.


But you've arrived at the right conclusion :nod:. In fact it probably took him longer to post to this forum than it would take to write the memos in question (particularly because he actually included what appears to be a valid explanation for why he couldn't make it to work in the post itself).


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## chrisf (3 Oct 2014)

Maybe I'm reading something different here, the original poster can clarify, but what I'm reading is that someone's chain of command needed someone last minute, attempted to order the op to come into work, and is now attempting to swing their dick around in an attempt to badger the op into doing it. Am I reading wrong?

Unless it was scheduled unit training, or it was something you agreed to and are now backing out of, not really sure why anyone is demanding a memo...

At least that's what I'm reading here, the op has an issue with writing a memo, but the bigger problem is that at least one link in the chain of command thinks they can order a class a reservist to come in for last minute class a taskings...

If anyone wants to pretend that sort of nonsense doesn't happen, they haven't spent enough time around reserve units.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (3 Oct 2014)

I'm with the OP on this.

If I'm asked to provide a service then I expect to be paid for that service................unless of course his bosses wish to start paying the lads/ladettes 24/7?

Yea, I thought not. :


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## George Wallace (3 Oct 2014)

Quantum said:
			
		

> When my choice is either A) play with my kids for 30 minutes that day or B) right yet another memo (in this case 2) then yes, I have to ask myself if this is something I really want to do.



Fine.  Your statement that you would rather spend 30 minutes with your kids than write a memo is valid.  However, in the amount of time that it took you to SEARCH the internet, find this site and register, create a Topic and post, all on your own time, I am sure that all of the time you have been away from your kids to do this, could easily covered the amount of time needed to write a memo or two.




			
				Quantum said:
			
		

> I did not need a finger pointing, self-righteous attitude; I simply needed a straight answer to give me a little direction.




As you continue to visit this site and post, contrary to you complaints of having not enough time for your family life, all I can say is ........    :
Nothing self-righteous in it at all.  


Sig Op

The OP is complaining that they have been told to write a memo/memos on their own time.

They have since stated that they have emailed their CoC and got permission to do so on their next Parade night.   Problem actually solved.

Part of their complaint was that they had a hectic family life and writing a memo took away from their quality of life, but they could search the internet, find this site, register in the last 12 hours and start this Topic.  How that (coming to this site) took away from their quality time with their children is totally ignored.  Now we are accused of being "self-righteous" and "finger pointing" for pointing out the contradictions here, and telling the OP to take five minutes to draft a memo.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (3 Oct 2014)

Maybe not everyone folds like a cheap suit?.......just sayin'.......


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## MJP (3 Oct 2014)

Quantum said:
			
		

> When my choice is either A) play with my kids for 30 minutes that day or B) right yet another memo (in this case 2) then yes, I have to ask myself if this is something I really want to do.
> 
> If, as you say, I had to write one "from time to time", I wouldn't care nor have I ever questioned or thought about it. When memos are now being requested of me on a weekly or bi-weekly basis, then I start to reconsider the willingness of sitting at home and writing yet another. We don't have the luxury of a 9 to 5 job, time spent with the family is precious and I won't have it taken away; especially not by weekly unpaid work. Currently, life does not allow much down time.
> 
> ...



First, you'll find that there are those on this site that very seldom provide meaningful advice but certainly like to think they are.  My advice is to just ignore them.

Second. your question is a poignant one in an ever more connected world.  I have seen a growing trend in the Class A reserve world to expect more from part time soldiers in their days off.  Unless it is paid for I am of the mind that soldiers should be left alone.  Work should be done at work.  Certainly some give in terms of email clarification of things is good and I am glad you have done so and your CoC has agreed.  Hopefully this sort of common sense prevails…


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## George Wallace (3 Oct 2014)

Let's end this now before we start asking if the OP should be paid for conducting email correspondence with their CoC outside of work hours.

The OP has solved their perceived problem through their email correspondence with their CoC and got permission to take time away from training to compose their memo/memos.  

END.


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## Journeyman (3 Oct 2014)

When you get a moment of computer time at the Armouries, make up a memo template and save it.  

You can leave the reason for not being available for the tasking blank, to be filled in; if it is recurring, put in some options to be deleted if not relevant ("conflict with spouse's schedule," "civie job requirements," "your poor planning doesn't make it my crisis".....).  Other than task detail ("...ref 15 Sep GD task...") all the rest should be standard repetition, including the Distr List, if the memo requirement is coming from the same person.






			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> Shake your head.


:not-again:    Oh, I _am_.


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## X Royal (3 Oct 2014)

This problem of assigning projects during off hours in the reserves is a long way from new.
When it got worse for me is when regular force members are in positions in a reserve unit. They are use to the 24/7 routine some and figure nothing is wrong assigning projects during off hours.
When I was ordered to complete 2 lesson plans (for a unit library) before the next training night my response was I was available to come in on an administration night to do them. I was told no extra pay was authorized just get it done at home.
Needless to say I told them to pound salt.
This was back in the day of the 10/90 battalions. 
Some reserve units have had problems when they fail to realize accommodations have to be made for reservists who's schedules don't fit a regular force one timing for all members attitude.


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## brihard (3 Oct 2014)

Valid question on the OP's part, and I say this as one who has done a ton of 'off the books' work for my reserve unit over the years. I never minded doing so when there was actual work to be done, or it was one of my troops contacting me at weird hours about a problem that fell within my purview as a section commander.

But it looks like in this case, some self-important twit is generating unnecessary staff work. Sometimes reservists can't make it to work, or rather can't get something done on the very short notice that is given them. That's the nature of the beast, and it rewards proper planning within the unit level and punishes laziness or inattentiveness on the part of same. It looks like the OP is increasingly finding his personal time eaten up not with use_ful_ 'bonus work', but with use_less_ stuff that he is expected to do on his own without compensation. I see nothing wrong with him offering a 'pound sand' on this one, and it's not unreasonable for a junior leader in the reserves to come to a site like this and get some advice/mentorship form his peers and seniors who've often been through this before.

Reserve units often have admin nights for exactly this kind of reason- to come in and do admin. If they refuse to allow him to avail himself of the mechanism already set up for this kind of thing, screw 'em.


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## Eye In The Sky (3 Oct 2014)

Holy shitballs.

Bringing up all this stuff about disobeying this and that, remedial measures, etc.

Seriously?  People are suggesting that "work on your time at home while not on the paysheet" would constitute a LAWFUL command?  And if you didn't you could be placed on a RM?

:facepalm:


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## DAA (3 Oct 2014)

Quantum said:
			
		

> Problem: My current (new) staff *loves* memos; for everything...
> 
> QUESTION: Can I be ordered to write multiple memos, from home, while not being paid? I'd understand if I was asking for something (time off or to be excused from a commitment etc) but this is not the case. They want memos because I was unable to make 2 (very last minute) work requests.
> 
> With kids, family, 2 dogs and a wife that works odd shifts, my life is heavily scheduled. I can't take on a work commitment with 2 to 5 days notice. So, can I be ordered to use my own free time to explain, in memo format why  I could not make it?



And the OPs follow up was......



			
				Quantum said:
			
		

> When my choice is either A) play with my kids for 30 minutes that day or B) right yet another memo (in this case 2) then yes, I have to ask myself if this is something I really want to do.
> 
> If, as you say, I had to write one "from time to time", I wouldn't care nor have I ever questioned or thought about it. When memos are now being requested of me on a weekly or bi-weekly basis, then I start to reconsider the willingness of sitting at home and writing yet another. We don't have the luxury of a 9 to 5 job, time spent with the family is precious and I won't have it taken away; especially not by weekly unpaid work. Currently, life does not allow much down time.



So, based on the first post, who doesn't love memo's?  At least you now have something in writing and don't have to use anecdotal responses later on, which you can't back up.

I wouldn't exactly call this a "last minute" response, seeing as the OP clearly says, "I can't take on a work commitment with 2 to 5 days notice".

Come to think of it, I don't even see this as a work commitment!  The unit has asked him to provide support, he has declined the request based on what he deems "short notice", which by the way, "Class A" Reservists have every right to do regardless of the timelines involved, so the Unit is now trying to document just why he is turning down their requests!

Seems pretty simple to me and nothing to lose sleep over.  Mind you, based on the second post, the unit is now allowing the OP the time to respond, while they are on "company" time.


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## Monsoon (3 Oct 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Holy shitballs.
> 
> Bringing up all this stuff about disobeying this and that, remedial measures, etc.
> 
> ...


I don't know who this guy is and - like every single other person on this forum with the possible exception of the OP himself - have no knowledge of the fuller circumstances of the case from the scanty and perspective-skewed details provided. I was just correcting some manifestly wrong related information provided by another poster.

As for the topic itself, whether you regard the OP as a poor belaboured soul being oppressed by a ruthless CoC or as a potential chronic sh*tbird who needs correction is really just a Rorschach test blot to figure out your general perspective within the CF.


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## PPCLI Guy (3 Oct 2014)

Holy fuck!

Everyone stop!

I spent 8 years in the Reserves, and loved every minute of it - to the point that I took a 50% cut in pay and joined the Regs, much to the dismay of the training wife.

I would NOT be a Reservist now,  We have sucked all of the joy out of it, and left just the retarded ass pain of Army life.

The dude has a point, and his "leadership" needs to take their head out of their asses.


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## Shamrock (3 Oct 2014)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> The dude has a point, and his "leadership" needs to take their head out of their asses.



What really amuses me is the flat out inefficiency of the exercise.  There's probably more staff hours involved in the generation, handling, and responding to the message than the original work day entailed.

We need to adopt economy of administration as one of our principles.


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## ModlrMike (3 Oct 2014)

I suppose now would be a good time to point out that my unit has a proforma for just this issue. We don't use them that aggressively, except for NES commandos. The other reason we use them is to forecast attendance at major training evolutions so that we can budget for such things as feeding etc. Fill out the form, pass it to your boss, problem solved.


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## TCM621 (3 Oct 2014)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I suppose now would be a good time to point out that my unit has a proforma for just this issue. We don't use them that aggressively, except for NES commandos. The other reason we use them is to forecast attendance at major training evolutions so that we can budget for such things as feeding etc. Fill out the form, pass it to your boss, problem solved.


Big fan of those. It makes it so easy there is no excuse to fill it out. Also email was invented recently.  I have heard good things about it.


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## dapaterson (3 Oct 2014)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> Also email was invented recently.  I have heard good things about it.



I'm mixed about it in the Reserve context.

(1) It means that every staffer in a HQ with a stupid question can send it out to the world, instead of getting it vetted by their supervisor and being told "we already have that information".  

(2) It means that part-time leadership is now expected to be constantly responsive to point (1) and other nitnoid things that are neither urgent nor important.

(3) It means that proper recordkeeping has become a forgotten art.

(4) It means that we end up deluged with useless information and questions that detract from the core role of the military: training and preparing sailors, soldiers and aviators.


Just for fun, I suggested to a senior Reg F that he try to live with Reserve communications: You only get 4 hours per week when you can access the DWAN, which are the same 4 hours per week when you're allowed to see people face to face.  (As a senior officer, he gets his own computer - decided not to throw in "you have to fight to get computer access during that four hours because your peers need that one computer at the same time too").  All the rest of your work has to be done either on a BlackBerry or on an internet connected computer, and you can only deal with other people by phone or email.  Oh, and if you have computer problems, the help desk is closed.

Oddly enough, he wasn't interested in trying to work that way...


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## The_Falcon (3 Oct 2014)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Just for fun, I suggested to a senior Reg F that he try to live with Reserve communications: You only get 4 hours per week when you can access the DWAN, which are the same 4 hours per week when you're allowed to see people face to face.  (As a senior officer, he gets his own computer - decided not to throw in "you have to fight to get computer access during that four hours because your peers need that one computer at the same time too").  All the rest of your work has to be done either on a BlackBerry or on an internet connected computer, and you can only deal with other people by phone or email.  Oh, and if you have computer problems, the help desk is closed.
> 
> Oddly enough, he wasn't interested in trying to work that way...



Interesting that you mention that, as it's akin to something Timothy Feriss talks about in his book "The Four Hour Work Week"  He actually devotes an entire section about how most emails, meetings etc. are fluff, and as way of being more efficient (in the early steps), you let everyone know, you will only read and respond to emails twice a day, and between specific time frames (more or less, like I said, it's quite a detailed section)


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## TwoTonShackle (3 Oct 2014)

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> This is completely incorrect. While it is true that a person can only be charged under the disciplinary system for something that they do or fail to do as ordered while subject to the NDA, there are two things the chain of command CAN do:
> 
> - *Give you an order on one period that you're subject to the NDA* (draft a memo, appear here next Saturday, etc) and charge you the next time you are subject to the NDA for failing to do it; and
> 
> - Place you on remedial measures leading (eventually) to release for not doing your job, regardless of whether you were subject to the NDA in between or not.



I agree with part of your in your scenario, but that was not the scenario the OP presented.  He asked if he could be ordered from home.  At home, while not being paid, he is not subject to the NDA.  Any negative action resulting from the OP not complying with such requests (i.e. calls at home while not on Class A, B or C), would be an open and shut redress IMHO.  Just imagine the opening sentence of the IW/RW : "While at home and not on duty, did disobey a lawful command (actually request) to draft and submit a memorandum detailing why subject member was not able to attend unscheduled training."


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## Eye In The Sky (4 Oct 2014)

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> I don't know who this guy is and - like every single other person on this forum with the possible exception of the OP himself - have no knowledge of the fuller circumstances of the case from the scanty and perspective-skewed details provided. I was just correcting some manifestly wrong related information provided by another poster.
> 
> As for the topic itself, whether you regard the OP as a poor belaboured soul being oppressed by a ruthless CoC or as a potential chronic sh*tbird who needs correction is really just a Rorschach test blot to figure out your general perspective within the CF.



While my comment wasn't aimed directly at you, it appears you felt that shoe fit and laced that fucker up.


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## TCM621 (4 Oct 2014)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I'm mixed about it in the Reserve context.
> 
> (1) It means that every staffer in a HQ with a stupid question can send it out to the world, instead of getting it vetted by their supervisor and being told "we already have that information".
> 
> ...


I spent almost 4 years as RSS and was a reservist for 6 years at the beginning of my career. So I am fairly conversant with reserve life.

I fully support the memo format for large issues but for small things, like why you can't make a training night, email is sufficient.  It also allows for a paper trail.

Edit: whether reg or res, all troops should have the email and/or phone number. An email chain is a simple solution for part time soldiers.


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## Eye In The Sky (4 Oct 2014)

When I was a reservist, I didn't treat people like idiotic droolers in some army adult daycare.  I spoke to my troops, kept parade states and didn't waste their time making them right a fuckin memo re-stating what they told me when I canvassed the troop as a group about ex attendance for example; they were missing the weekend ex because it was exam time or it was little Johny's birthday.  I recorded the reason on the Tp parade state that went to the Tp Ldr and 49C.

I would love to hear the ULA opinion on charging someone for not writing a memo.


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## Monsoon (4 Oct 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> When I was a reservist, I didn't treat people like idiotic droolers in some army adult daycare.  I spoke to my troops, kept parade states and didn't waste their time making them right a ****** memo re-stating what they told me when I canvassed the troop as a group about ex attendance for example; they were missing the weekend ex because it was exam time or it was little Johny's birthday.  I recorded the reason on the Tp parade state that went to the Tp Ldr and 49C.
> 
> I would love to hear the ULA opinion on charging someone for not writing a memo.


For whatever reason, you appear to be spoiling for a sh*t-flinging match. I'm not going to give it to you. I would estimate that in this case we're getting less than one-quarter of the full story.


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## Haggis (4 Oct 2014)

*PPCLI Guy* hit the nail right on  the head.

I have seen the full time HQ generated admin load on part-time Reserve units increase exponentially over the past few years.  It's now gotten to the point where there is not a hope in Hell that I can do everything I need to get done done in 37.5 days per year.  And it's a very rare night indeed when I actually get out of my office to see troops or make it to the Mess for a wobbly pop after training.  It's absolutely ridiculous.

Full time HQs generate 37.5 paid hours of work a week and demand (yes I said "demand") that Reserve units meet all their requirements in 6 to 12 paid hours per week.  Money that should be being spent on training is being used to support the (sometimes redundant and overlapping) demands of reports and returns,  RFIs, staff checks, queries, SAVs, inspections and audits.  This is exacerbated by exactly what *dapaterson* described as the tendency for staff weenies at all levels to reach right down to the Armoury floor looking for information, usually on very short notice.

I'm a civvy shift worker in a job that requires a fair bit of _paid_ overtime each week.  I don't have an Army Blackberry as I cannot use one at work.  When I was RSM I had a DWAN laptop.  now, as Ops O I pop into the Armoury 2-3 times a week in addition to training and admin nights just to keep up on the e-mail flow and maintain some type of situational awareness. My Reg F Ops WO is brand new and still finding his way.  My Class A unit leadership has become accustomed to and accepting of receiving e-mail replies from me at odd hours (sometimes at 03h00 when I can't sleep after an evening shift).  The full-time HQ staffers who sleep with their Blackberries next to their beds are less understanding of a shift worker's schedule and resent my 03h00 replies to their "regret short notice - need this by 08h00 tomorrow" demands and RFIs sent while I was working.  Too bad.


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## Scott (4 Oct 2014)

I'm with the OP and hope he comes back to roadie updates, if any.


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## PPCLI Guy (4 Oct 2014)

Haggis said:
			
		

> I have seen the full time HQ generated admin load on part-time Reserve units increase exponentially over the past few years.  It's now gotten to the point where there is not a hope in Hell that I can do everything I need to get done done in 37.5 days per year.  And it's a very rare night indeed when I actually get out of my office to see troops or make it to the Mess for a wobbly pop after training.  It's absolutely ridiculous.



Haggis and I worked together when I was RSS, back in the day when computers were a new thing on the floor.  There was actually time to plan and conduct some very cool training, spend time with the troops, *and* have a wobby pop - mostly because my interface with the District HQ was by phone or snail mail.  We have dramatically over-complicated things, to the detriment of the readiness, effectiveness, viability and sustainability of the Reserves.

The only way to turn back the clock is to dramatically reduce both the CBG HQs and the full time unit staff.  Allow Class A leaders to lead, and Class A soldiers to soldier.  Bring the fun back to the life of the citizen soldier and stamp out the hydra-headed bureaucracy.


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## chrisf (4 Oct 2014)

DAA said:
			
		

> I wouldn't exactly call this a "last minute" response, seeing as the OP clearly says, "I can't take on a work commitment with 2 to 5 days notice".



You would be mistaken then, 2 to 5 days is very short notice.

Anything that wasn't on the training calendar at least a couple of months in advance is short notice.



> Come to think of it, I don't even see this as a work commitment!  The unit has asked him to provide support, he has declined the request based on what he deems "short notice", which by the way, "Class A" Reservists have every right to do regardless of the timelines involved, so the Unit is now trying to document just why he is turning down their



Unless it was a scheduled *unit* training event there's no requirement to document why he turned it down.


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## OldSolduer (4 Oct 2014)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Haggis and I worked together when I was RSS, back in the day when computers were a new thing on the floor.  There was actually time to plan and conduct some very cool training, spend time with the troops, *and* have a wobby pop - mostly because my interface with the District HQ was by phone or snail mail.  We have dramatically over-complicated things, to the detriment of the readiness, effectiveness, viability and sustainability of the Reserves.
> 
> The only way to turn back the clock is to dramatically reduce both the CBG HQs and the full time unit staff.  Allow Class A leaders to lead, and Class A soldiers to soldier.  Bring the fun back to the life of the citizen soldier and stamp out the hydra-headed bureaucracy.



I quite agree. We get too many "fastballs" at the last second, or emailed on a Monday asking for a response by Tuesday at 2200. 
My BB is as busy as some Reg Force members.....and I'm expected to respond whether it is a parade night or not.


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## X Royal (4 Oct 2014)

DAA said:
			
		

> I wouldn't exactly call this a "last minute" response, seeing as the OP clearly says, "I can't take on a work commitment with 2 to 5 days notice".


My guess DAA is that you are regular force.
And this is where the biggest problems in concepts occurs between regular and reserve force members.
2-5 days notice for a regular force member can generally be accommodated fairly easily. 
For a reserve force member this can easily be next to impossible.
A regular force member does not have to arrange time off from their full time employment to accommodate an extra tasking. 
Many employers will deny these short notice requests due to the businesses needs.
Even if approved it may require the member using their annual vacation time.
Many in civilian employment only get 2 weeks vacation a year and may not want to give up their yearly vacation for a short notice tasking generated by some headquarters. 
Regular force members are not being asked to use up their annual vacation due to a short notice tasking either.
At times regular force members don't even realize what their requests require of the reserve force member at best and at worse some times don't care if getting the task filled will make the asking member look good as opposed to failing to meet their mission of getting the task filled.
By the way I have served both in the regular and reserve forces and have had the opportunity to see this from both sides.


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## Haggis (4 Oct 2014)

DAA said:
			
		

> I wouldn't exactly call this a "last minute" response, seeing as the OP clearly says, "I can't take on a work commitment with 2 to 5 days notice".



Let's overlay a Class A timeline on this:

Day 1 AM:  HQ comes up with a good idea tasking.  

Day 1 PM: The staff mull over it for a bit, cost it out, find the details and turn it into a tasking order.  They then send it on the units to fill by e-mail, likely to a positional mailbox (+ArcticRiflesOps@Frozentown) .

Day 2 AM:  Unit full time staff see the e-mail.  They send the same to the Class A leadership to respond.

Day 2 PM:  Administration night.  Class A leadership sees the e-mail, buried among the other hundred or so that have accumulated since the last parade night.  It's not a training nights so there are no troops to canvass.  It sits unanswered. 

Day 3 AM:  HQ, having seen the "read receipt" on the original query, knows the message has been received.  HQ gets antsy because the unit hasn't responded yet.  Sends off a "hastener".  Now, there's another e-mail in the Class A Queue.

Day 4 AM:  Unit full time staff see the hastener e-mail.  They send the same to the Class A leadership to respond. The Class A leadership is on night shift with their Blackberry turned off.  HQ sees the "read receipt" on the hastener.  Calls the unit demanding an answer.  Full time staff cannot answer the query until the next training night.

Day 4 PM:  Training night.  Unit Class A leadership canvass the soldiers and find a taker for the tasking.  The info is passed to the full time staff who inform the HQ.  It's now 23h00 on Day 4.

Day 5 AM:  HQ sees the message nominating the soldier to fill the tasking.

Voila!  5 days.  It can be as little as 2 days if the unit has it's training night early in the week.  If not, this is the usual Class A battle rhythm.


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## chrisf (4 Oct 2014)

Haggis - that's 5 days before it even gets to the end soldier... assuming that end solider is getting 2-5 days notice, you're looking at a minimum of a week to two weeks.


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## Haggis (4 Oct 2014)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Haggis - that's 5 days before it even gets to the end soldier... assuming that end solider is getting 2-5 days notice, you're looking at a minimum of a week to two weeks.



Understood entirely.  My example is based only on the timeline of notification.  Yes, the soldier may need additional days/weeks to arrange for time off and then attend the task.


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## RedcapCrusader (5 Oct 2014)

I love getting 19hrs notice for confirmation of crse start.

Thank you Brigade, you're the best.


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## brihard (5 Oct 2014)

RedcapCrusader said:
			
		

> I love getting 19hrs notice for confirmation of crse start.
> 
> Thank you Brigade, you're the best.



Builds character. Now shut up, you'll take the employment you're given, and be damned grateful for it.

What do you mean you found a second job?


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## Robert0288 (5 Oct 2014)

RedcapCrusader said:
			
		

> I love getting 19hrs notice for confirmation of crse start.
> 
> Thank you Brigade, you're the best.



Better than a notice that your already 3 days late for a tasking you didn't know about.


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## chrisf (5 Oct 2014)

"I didn't ask for a tasking, I've got a full time job"
"Well, we just assumed you were available, you've got to go now, we've already booked the flights and your class b contract started yesterday"
"[much laughter followed by a phone being hung up]"


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## Haggis (5 Oct 2014)

A bit of a tangent here, but still related to the "short notice" theme.  

"Back in the day" I was granted 5 weeks off by my federal government employer to attend a specialist course in Borden.  While loading up my kit in the armoury just about to drive to Borden, my Ops O came running out and yelled "Don't leave yet - I'm waiting for a fax about your course."

When the fax arrived it said "Course cancelled due to lack of staff.  Regret short notice.  All Reg F members are to RTU.  All Res F contracts are cancelled forthwith upon completion of RTU travel."

Those were the days before you could be granted an equal amount of Class B employment authorized at your parent unit to compensate for courses cancelled with less than 7 days notice.

My civvy employer had hired a term employee to cover for me.  They were forced to let the term employee go so I could return to work.

My manager, an Ex Reg F Black Watch Sgt, was less than impressed.  That was the last time I ever was granted time off for military activities by that department.


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## Harris (5 Oct 2014)

Unfortunately I see this all the time at the Unit.  Request comes in on Mon expecting an answer by Wed.  We train Thur night.  Sometimes for a jammy go, sometimes for courses etc... we have no one qual for, and everything in between.

So if the day staff bend over backwards and do work the Class A folks should be doing (ie.  calling guys to see if they are available), I feel this is simply reinforcing bad behavior by Brigade and Div staff.  I have complained about this but the usual answer is, "Div sent this so we have no flexibility on timings...".  In Brigades defense, I have seen a number of tasks come from Army HQ with a 2-3 day turnaround.  If on the other hand we wait until Thur to have the Class A CoC do the work we may miss out on jammy goes for the troops.

My question to you is this:

How do you satisfy both points above?  My thought is do the extra work for jammy goes and ignore the rest until Thur.

I should note that I have offered Class A guys pay for doing this type of work from home but most don't/can't take advantage for various reasons.  Scheduling and lack of a connection to DWAN/Email being the major one.

I would appreciate any thoughts.


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## RedcapCrusader (5 Oct 2014)

Robert0288 said:
			
		

> Better than a notice that your already 3 days late for a tasking you didn't know about.



So much for "5 minutes before the 5 minutes before the 5 minutes"  ;D


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## The_Falcon (5 Oct 2014)

Harris said:
			
		

> Unfortunately I see this all the time at the Unit.  Request comes in on Mon expecting an answer by Wed.  We train Thur night.  Sometimes for a jammy go, sometimes for courses etc... we have no one qual for, and everything in between.
> 
> So if the day staff bend over backwards and do work the Class A folks should be doing (ie.  calling guys to see if they are available), I feel this is simply reinforcing bad behavior by Brigade and Div staff.  I have complained about this but the usual answer is, "Div sent this so we have no flexibility on timings...".  In Brigades defense, I have seen a number of tasks come from Army HQ with a 2-3 day turnaround.  If on the other hand we wait until Thur to have the Class A CoC do the work we may miss out on jammy goes for the troops.
> 
> ...



There might be an actual efficient way of doing it (ie software), or just having leadership that really knows their troops.  Example at the 48th, for a few years we had some really switched on FTUC, that knew which troops were available for short notice taskings, like the back of their hand.  Part of that came to down to just simply remembering who always showed up for such things, and part of it was the CoC encouraging troops to submit their names at the start of the training year, saying they were available for stuff last minute.


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## dapaterson (5 Oct 2014)

Let's face it, the whole Army tasking system is badly broken.  We're sending APBs out to the Reserves because the Reg F can't/won't fill slots - with 3-4 days to go before predeployment training starts.  Rather than ordering we let Divs sit on tasks, and no fill at the last minute.  Somehow, folks being paid 24/7 are not expected to be deployable - but those paid part-time are expected to be responsive and ready to go at all times.

In one memorable instance where the CAF needed an Infantry LCol , despite Afghanistan being the CAF's #1 priority, all 100+ Reg F Infantry LCols were somehow working on higher priority tasks.  As were all 300+ Reg F Infantry Majs.


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## Haggis (6 Oct 2014)

The bottom line is that CF Mil Pers Instruction 20-04 para 2.14 reads:

"2.14 Voluntary Service
Under QR&O article 203.065, a member of the Res F who is serving on other than a period of Cl "C" Reserve Service is entitled to be paid for each day of service. Therefore, *voluntary service without pay is not permitted*."

So, if your unit wants you to do work above and beyond your paid parade and admin nights, they are required to pay you for that work.

Some have argued that a Reservist on a parade night "signs in for three hours but is paid for up to six", thereby they can be assigned "homework" (take home work) for up to three hours.  This is a very liberal and self-serving interpretation of the pay regulations which, as we know, assigns 1/2 day of non-prorated pay for _any period _of work _up to six hours_.


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