# Speed, RCMP and 404s



## pteSMITH (22 Jan 2009)

Would someone be able to outline how receiving a speeding ticket with your 404's work if it was given by the RCMP.

I was on the highway in a DND civi-pattern vehicle, and was pulled over for exceeding the speed limit while merging into a connecting highway.  Being co-operative, I handed my 404s over, and the officer asked for my Civilian license, to which I stated it wasn't required in this situation and pointed it out on the 404's. (I didn't have it on me at the time, I just didn't want to tell him that).

He called into his dispatch, and ran my date of birth and they gave him my civi license number.  He basically told me I have two options. Put it on my civi license, and deal with my insurance civi-side, or put it on my 404's and if I just go pay the fine, nothing will happen, and no one will know. But, if I challenge it in court, it will be reverted to my civilian license.

I thinking hastily I said throw it on my 404's and I'll be done with it.  After I got back to my unit, I informed my Sgt. what had happened and asked him what I should do as I don't want to get reprimanded for trying to hide the incident.  He said to pay it and be done with it and "he didn't hear anything."

Should I write a memo up the chain? Will this affect my 404's? Can this actually affect my civilian license, and is it even allowed to, being that I was driving for DND, and not my POMV?

Thoughts?


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## Love793 (22 Jan 2009)

Doh, I'm pretty sure this won't be the last you hear about it.


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## pteSMITH (22 Jan 2009)

Love793 said:
			
		

> Doh, I'm pretty sure this won't be the last you hear about it.



Guaranteed. But you know the lecture you get before any leave, holiday, etc... Stay out of trouble. And if you get into trouble, tell us and we'll try and sort it out.  I've always been skeptical of that. However, I'd rather deal with it now then have someone coming down on me later for not being forthright about it.

Only two questions remain. How does this affect my license (404/civi) and how to I go about being forthright and not blade my supervisor if he told me to "handle it".
Million dollar question right there.


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## theoldyoungguy (22 Jan 2009)

In my opinion what I would do. I would have told somebody just as you did. If your Sgt said dont worry about it I would do as he said. I know of friends who have recieved tickets. After going through the chain of command they paid the ticket and nothing further was said of it. I'm pretty sure you would only get your 404's revoked for a serious driving infraction or multiple tickets. I wouldn't be too concerned about that.


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## TN2IC (22 Jan 2009)

Just remember...... you are in the CF. Don't forget next time.


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## George Wallace (22 Jan 2009)

One point that you may think of is that not only tell your supervisor verbally, but back it up with a written statement of what happened.  Don't forget to keep a copy, and perhaps have it witnessed or put on your Pers File.  It is a form of CYA, in case the Law does come after you and you need to back up your actions.  

As you said the Mountie came back with your actual Civie Lic number, you know that he ran it through the system.  

Document everything, even if it is in a diary, in the case you may be called to Court.


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## Fusaki (22 Jan 2009)

Is it legal for a Cop to charge a military member driving a DND vehicle on his civillian license?

We are told that in those situations we hand over our 404s and NOT our civvie license, but whats the point if he can bring up our civvie license number anyways?

Is there grounds to fight the ticket if the charges are on the civvie license and not on 404s?

I know I could go digging through the QR&Os, but maybe someone knows of the top of his head...


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## PuckChaser (22 Jan 2009)

Chapter 1, Para 26 of the DND Driver's Regulations (latest copy I have dated: 19 Mar 05) states that:



> Where a driver is charged with an offense under the Criminal Code of Canada or a Provincial Highway Traffic Act while operating a DND vehicle in the circumstances set out in Military Driver / Operator Permit (DND 404) - Restriction and Suspension, CFAO 19-14, authority may be granted to pay all or part of the legal fees and disbursements incurred to assume the defence of the driver. If found guilty of the charge, the driver is responsible for the payment of any fine and costs of prosecution which might be imposed by the court.



Unfortunately the CFAOs are now gone from the ADM Finance site, and there was no DAOD equivalent. I believe you did the right thing by informing your supervisor right away, and should take the next step and let your Transport cell know and ask them how to handle it. I've always been taught that you cannot have demerit points taken from your civvie license for something you do in a DND vehicle, its up to DND to discipline appropriately.


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## geo (22 Jan 2009)

Well... you learnt something today... with their computer, the RCMP can identify you - regardless of if you showed them your permit - or not.

per puckchaser's quote - you are responsible for the payment of any fine and court costs.. which means you MUST pay.

Sooo... you have informed your chain of command - shoulda been done in writing.
you should inform the transport section.

The demerit points - you'll prolly get away with not receiving any this time around... mind you, if you get into a habbit of showing up on radar (pun) the RCMP may choose to use harsher means next time.

Find out from your transport NCO about what to do to pay the costs.


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## stealthylizard (23 Jan 2009)

Got pulled over by MP for driving while uninsured.  Have to go to court for it.  Informed my section commander, and platoon WO, nothing else has been said about it.  Just told to make sure I make it to the court date.  Last thing anyone needs is to be dropped off the list for deployment because of an arrest warrant for failure to show up to court.  I was more worried about the military repercussions from it than anything else, but so far so good.  Start P2's right before court, so the extra little raise will be taken care of for the minimum $2500 fine.  I was more worried about the military repercussions than anything else, because as mentioned above while getting in trouble on leave......


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## TCBF (23 Jan 2009)

Cpl.Smith said:
			
		

> ... Only two questions remain. ...



- I have another question.  The Horse Policeman said that if you fought it, it would go on your civ licence.  Really? This is the same RCMP who have walked up to widows in the past and said "Your husband is dead, now give us his guns."  They screw up now and then, too.

- Stop screwing around, and get yourself some legal advice from a lawyer, not a policeman.


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## gaspasser (23 Jan 2009)

My two pennies worth here,
Just remember that you do not need a civilian driver's licence to operate a DND vehicle, therefore, if you are pulled over by the police for a driving infraction, show your 404's and pay the fine.  1. you won't get points off your civ lic. and 2. you won't be in the system!  Which is very important if you want to get a PRC when joining a youth organization, school or anything! and definately let your dispacther know. 
I think the officer was just trying to rattle your cage, they like to do that to young military guys.  Scare 'em once, they won't do it again.
I once got pulled over driving at governed T/T for speeding just outside Halifax (Stewiak hill after not going into the scales at the airport...Mr. Plow!) The Queen's Cowboy tried to rattle my cage and give me a warning. Just be polite and say "Thank you officer, have a nice day"  Keeps you off the radar!!!
Good Luck, keep the speed down to a decent flight cruise and keep the shiny side up!
BYTD


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## PuckChaser (23 Jan 2009)

stealthylizard said:
			
		

> Got pulled over by MP for driving while uninsured.  Have to go to court for it.  Informed my section commander, and platoon WO, nothing else has been said about it.  Just told to make sure I make it to the court date.  Last thing anyone needs is to be dropped off the list for deployment because of an arrest warrant for failure to show up to court.  I was more worried about the military repercussions from it than anything else, but so far so good.  Start P2's right before court, so the extra little raise will be taken care of for the minimum $2500 fine.  I was more worried about the military repercussions than anything else, because as mentioned above while getting in trouble on leave......



You may try using duty counsel for the court date and getting the fine lowered due to financial circumstances. You'd be suprised what a little politeness (maybe even a well-dressed young soldier in DEU) can do to make a judge lower the fines.


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## George Wallace (23 Jan 2009)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> You may try using duty counsel for the court date and getting the fine lowered due to financial circumstances. You'd be suprised what a little politeness (maybe even a well-dressed young soldier in DEU) can do to make a judge lower the fines.



And then there are the crusty old judges who had a hate on for anything military....... >


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## helpup (23 Jan 2009)

They "LEO's" do get flummoxed by Mil 404's The OPP pulled me over just prior to Algonquin park many moons ago as I was driving a panel Van from Borden.  Showed him my 404's but he didn't want to see them. I had my drivers licence but told him the line we are not required to show them as non civi licenced drivers can have 404's.  He let that soak in and went back to his cruiser came back after a long time and told me I do have a licence but that he would put it on my 404's ( me thinks he talked to Dispatch)  My CoC was with me ( long tasking so not able to info higher ). I took the ticket and although I could of fought it just paid it out and that was the end of it. After the tasking info-ed the CoC for Tn told them it was paid and that was it.  Mind you if it was for a accident or major infraction ( like say I was doing 50 over the posted limit ) then the ticket would go the same route but there is a 80% chance Tn or MSE would get a copy and your 404's would be revoked until after the court case and then the final punishment would be decided.


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## kincanucks (23 Jan 2009)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Chapter 1, Para 26 of the DND Driver's Regulations (latest copy I have dated: 19 Mar 05) states that:
> 
> Unfortunately the CFAOs are now gone from the ADM Finance site, and there was no DAOD equivalent. I believe you did the right thing by informing your supervisor right away, and should take the next step and let your Transport cell know and ask them how to handle it. I've always been taught that you cannot have demerit points taken from your civvie license for something you do in a DND vehicle, its up to DND to discipline appropriately.



http://admfincs.mil.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/intro_e.asp


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## ajp (23 Jan 2009)

Its not so bad if you don't lose yourliscence, but...CFAO 19-14

2. Any member of the CF authorized to operate a DND vehicle shall, upon being informed or receiving notice of suspension or cancellation of a civilian driver's licence, immediately report the occurrence and circumstances therewith to the base/station/unit commanding officer (CO). The CO shall act as described in this order.

3.     A member convicted of repeated driving offences under the Criminal
Code of Canada, a provincial Highway Traffic Act or the National Defence
Act (NDA) has exhibited driver characteristics detrimental to the mission
of the CF which could result in the member being permanently prohibited
from driving a DND vehicle.  Every member must be made aware that such
offences can result in disciplinary and/or career action being taken.


6. A member who has been convicted of a driving offence and whose provincial driver's licence has been suspended or cancelled, shall be prohibited from driving a DND vehicle during the period of suspension or cancellation imposed by civilian or military authorities.


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## GUNS (23 Jan 2009)

Although this is to do with only two of the three subjects( speed and 404's ). Thought it was worth mentioning.

Sometime in the early 70's in Germany, a M109 from A Bty 1 RCHA was caught speeding by the German Police. 

Just picture a VW Bug with blue lights flashing chasing down a M109 for speeding. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Story goes that during a Regimental Parade, the Gun Sgt. and Driver were paraded before the CO and  presented with a framed picture of the ticket. I also believe there was a picture of the two German Police Officers handing the ticket to the Gun Sgt.

Not sure what punishment was handed out for the speeding offence but have to say, it was amusing. :warstory:


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## geo (23 Jan 2009)

Certainly couldn't have been on the Autobahn (musta been a school zone)


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## 2 Cdo (23 Jan 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> And then there are the crusty old judges who had a hate on for anything military....... >



Victoria 1984 charged with careless driving. Showed up in court and it seems it's military day and I'm the last case on the docket. The judge was precisely as you described and with each passing case sentencing became stiffer. By the time I get up and pleaded guilty, hoping to get just a little leniency, the judge sentenced me to an 18 month suspension and a $1500 fine!  My monthly take home pay was a little over $600 at the time. But I never got in trouble with the law ever again in Victoria! ;D


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## Bzzliteyr (23 Jan 2009)

I jokingly got a ticket given to me by the Ottawa Carleton traffic det that escorted me through Ottawa in 2000 on the way to the war museum.

Infraction:  a burnt out headlight on my Leopard C2 that shook loose during my road move through town!!  (I have pictures that prove the light was functioning before we left but the Ottawa Sun picture has me with a headlight out. Imagine the razzing I got from the boys when I got back to the Armour school!!)


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## George Wallace (23 Jan 2009)

GUNS said:
			
		

> Although this is to do with only two of the three subjects( speed and 404's ). Thought it was worth mentioning.
> 
> Sometime in the early 70's in Germany, a M109 from A Bty 1 RCHA was caught speeding by the German Police.
> 
> ...



The first Leopard the RCD got was given a speeding ticket by the MPs, who had a Radar Trap at the Wash Racks between the Center and South Margs.  It had just been unloaded and hadn't even made it to the Regt in the North Marg.  Again, a proud moment in a Regimental History.


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## PanaEng (23 Jan 2009)

I would suggest you go to court. The worst that could happen is that you pay the fine; the best outcome: the police fail to show up or the paperwork was not done and you are clear. On average, people plead guilty with an explanation and get a reduced fine. If you don't fight it, you will have to pay.

cheers,
Frank


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## TN2IC (23 Jan 2009)

Cpl.Smith said:
			
		

> Only two questions remain. How does this affect my license (404/civi) and how to I go about being forthright and not blade my supervisor if he told me to "handle it".
> Million dollar question right there.




It will not affect your civi license at all. The only reason why LEO's request your civi license is for their report afterwards. They do not recognized the 404 system. So it's the only way they will identify a member is with the Master Driver Number. There shouldn't be any demerits on your civi license due to this issue. 

I was told this by Halifax Regional Police member last summer.

Regards,
Mr Plow


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## helpup (23 Jan 2009)

And yet we still have drivers who do not have Civi drivers permits, The police may not like that fact but it is a fact non the less


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## Jager (23 Jan 2009)

Mr Plow said:
			
		

> It will not affect your civi license at all. The only reason why LEO's request your civi license is for their report afterwards. They do not recognized the 404 system. So it's the only way they will identify a member is with the Master Driver Number. There shouldn't be any demerits on your civi license due to this issue.
> 
> I was told this by Halifax Regional Police member last summer.
> 
> ...



And what does the LEO do if the 404 Auth driver doesn't have a Civi drivers permit of any kind at all? Would that be a problem for them (either the Leo, or member), or no? Just wondering since you said that they use the Civi license in there report afterwards.


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## noneck (23 Jan 2009)

TCBF- A little harsh maybe?

Cpl.Smith- We have a saying amongst non-traffic LEO's, "Rather a sister in a whorehouse, than a brother in traffic." It appears that you met the sterotypical traffic member. 

The best time to dial this issue away was roadside, with a courteous plea to the member (in my opinion he was a dick to give a uniformed CF member a ticket in the first place). The second best time is at court, by showing up well turned out, pleading guilty and requesting a reduction in the fine. 

Let us know how it goes.

Noneck


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## TCBF (24 Jan 2009)

noneck said:
			
		

> TCBF- A little harsh maybe?...



- In retrospect - yes, a little harsh.

 :-[


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## YYC Retired (24 Jan 2009)

"Most" LEO's I know don't write Military.... serving or retired. Here in Calgary there's a ton of respect for the folks in the Forces.


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## gaspasser (24 Jan 2009)

I'm going to be a bit of a devil's advocate here:
I can understand the support behind the troops and giving a uniformed member a "break" with a warning.  
BUT, you ARE driving a DND vehicle in uniform and you ARE out there in public, you ARE the military in the public's eyes. So, why should you not be driving safe and not being a dyck??? Why can't YOU be the example of proper safe driving skills on public roads?  Why should you not get a ticket for being unsafe??? 
There's a reason why on our QL3s (MSEOp) they are very strict on dress and discipline and our Safety Cells can be harsh.  
I'm going out on a limb by saying that some people's driving skills are a blemish on the military and make us MSEOps look bad.
My two cents worth...EVERYONE is a poster person for the Military.   
Think about it!


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## PanaEng (24 Jan 2009)

BYT Driver said:
			
		

> I'm going to be a bit of a devil's advocate here:
> I can understand the support behind the troops and giving a uniformed member a "break" with a warning.
> BUT, you ARE driving a DND vehicle in uniform and you ARE out there in public, you ARE the military in the public's eyes. So, why should you not be driving safe and not being a dyck??? Why can't YOU be the example of proper safe driving skills on public roads?  Why should you not get a ticket for being unsafe???
> There's a reason why on our QL3s (MSEOp) they are very strict on dress and discipline and our Safety Cells can be harsh.
> ...


That's something we call all agree on - not just when driving either. 
But we can't blame the originator of this thread either - we don't have the whole picture of why/how he got pulled over - the officer could have been a bit overzealous (PMS, stress or just plain A**hole). And we are not the only ones that may not give a good impression on the roads at all times. I have been in many a police cars driven by officers - not always on the back  ;D - and some of my friends there drive like they stole it and own the road.

anyway, just my $0.02


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## gaspasser (25 Jan 2009)

True.
I've seen the OPP drive like they stole right here around base!  There's a new 60 zone from an 80, some people slow down but most still do 80, I've had the cops pass me doing 90 in the that 60.  Yeah, you can bleed off an 80-90 and no one looks...but to have a cop pass you while you're speeding??!!  Doesn't look good for the OPP.  Or the same on Hwy 401!!  you can do 140+ and have a cop pass you!!!
Not good for PR. 
But we are military and for years people slammed the military for getting away with things.   Either way, Be a Poster Person and help recruit!


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## mariomike (25 Jan 2009)

The old cliche is true. Speed kills.  According to a study, ambulances are 13 times more likely to be involved in an accident than other vehicles in terms of the number of accidents per miles driven.  One strategy that seems to work  is a kind of  "black box" mounted under the ambulance's front seat called a "growler." By measuring more than 25 parameters of the vehicle's operation, such as acceleration, braking and the use of seat belts, lights and sirens, this black box gives Paramedics — and their supervisors — a precise picture of their every move on the road.
The boxes give audible cues to drivers when they are nearing or exceeding predetermined parameters for accelerating, braking and turning. When a Paramedic takes a turn too fast, the growler clicks like a Geiger counter. If the Paramedic exceeds the preset limit for a full second, the tone changes and the driver knows he or she has just been hit with a computerized violation of the driving policy.
Reductions of 20:1 in the severity of crashes have been reported.


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## missing1 (25 Jan 2009)

Does anyone else find it odd that near everyone here admits to doing an illegal act but complains about being ticketed. As to speeding on the 401 often times these (COPS) OPP are transporting blood products between areas of patrol or responding to a silent call. They don't use lights and sirens all the time. None of us are perfect.

Dave


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## geo (25 Jan 2009)

Why would you think it odd that people complain about being caught ???
People complain because... they can!
Look at the kind of cars we drive - (mine's a BMW740) we can speed, we do speed - just don't like being caught & made to pay for it.

FWIW, posted highway speeds in Quebec are 100KPH BUT during dry road conditions, the SQ/QPP will tolerate it so long as you keep it below 120 KPH - so I use cruise control AND set a speed alarm on my car for 119.


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## mariomike (25 Jan 2009)

Photo radar and red light cameras have proven to be effective deterents. So effective that public pressure forced the OPP  to stop using it on the 401.


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## PuckChaser (25 Jan 2009)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Photo radar and red light cameras have proven to be effective deterents. So effective that public pressure forced the OPP  to stop using it on the 401.



So they went and bought planes!!  >


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## Love793 (25 Jan 2009)

Photo radar was stopped because they couldn't prove who the driver of the vehicle was, only that the vehicle in question was used to commit the offence.


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## aesop081 (25 Jan 2009)

Love793 said:
			
		

> Photo radar was stopped because they couldn't prove who the driver of the vehicle was, only that the vehicle in question was used to commit the offence.



Thats why the law is written so that the registered owner is responsible. Photo radar and red light cameras are in use in several cities and they dont have a problem dishing out tickets. Who is driving the car is irrelevant and has nothing to do with removal of cameras in certain locations.


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## Nfld Sapper (25 Jan 2009)

And they seem to work very well in Europe.


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## Retired AF Guy (25 Jan 2009)

In the mid-late 70s I was stationed in Victoria with 3 PPCLI. We had one of our young guys take a couple of the local law enforcement agencies on a drunken high-speed chase. They finally stopped him at a roadblock and dragged him out of the car with shotguns at the ready. From what I heard he wasn't even charged by the cops because they knew the military punishment would be worse than anything the civvie courts could hand out. He spent a year-plus in the detention barracks in Edmonton and came back a much nicer boy.


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## The_Falcon (25 Jan 2009)

Just to add fuel to this fire my TN Nco, showed me an email from the brigade G4 Tn, that if we are pulled over by the police, and are asked to surrender our civy drivers licence, we are to do so if we have one.  There was a ref in the email, I don't remember it off the top of my head, I am not back into work until tuesday, I will get a copy and post it.  No one get pissy at me here, I am just the messenger.


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## Nfld Sapper (25 Jan 2009)

Sounds like someone trying to play god in your brigade IMHO.

Cause it clearly states on the 404's,



> Military drivers do not require a provincial driver's license to operate DND owned or leased vehicles on public roads in Canada, providing they hold this permit and it is valid.


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## Fdtrucker (25 Jan 2009)

> Military drivers do not require a provincial driver's license to operate DND owned or leased vehicles on public roads in Canada, providing they hold this permit and it is valid.



NFLD Sapper

The quote you gave has nothing to do with the subject. Personnel can be placed on Driver Wheeled Crses and BDTs and given qualifications for those vehs/equip that they have trained on, even if they do not have a PDL.


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## Nfld Sapper (25 Jan 2009)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Just to add fuel to this fire my TN Nco, showed me an email from the brigade G4 Tn, *that if we are pulled over by the police, and are asked to surrender our civy drivers licence, we are to do so if we have one*.  There was a ref in the email, I don't remember it off the top of my head, I am not back into work until tuesday, I will get a copy and post it.  No one get pissy at me here, I am just the messenger.





			
				Fdtrucker said:
			
		

> NFLD Sapper
> 
> The quote you gave has nothing to do with the subject. Personnel can be placed on Driver Wheeled Crses and BDTs and given qualifications for those vehs/equip that they have trained on, even if they do not have a PDL.



And I stated that according to the 404 document you don't need to carry one with you.


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## The_Falcon (26 Jan 2009)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Sounds like someone trying to play god in your brigade IMHO.
> 
> Cause it clearly states on the 404's,



I don't know, there was a ref in the email, i "think" related to some QR&O,  I will find out for sure on tuesday.


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## Blackadder1916 (26 Jan 2009)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> And I stated that according to the 404 document you don't need to carry one with you.



Actually what it says  (according to the quote you provided previously) is that you do not need a provincial driver's license to operate a DND vehicle, it does not say anything about providing a PDL (if you are the holder of one) when so demanded by a civilian police officer.

Just because a driver is in the CF and maybe operating a DND vehicle does not exempt them from provincial legislation/regulation.  This may be one of those circumstances where there is a gray area, not because civilian police officers are overstepping their bounds, but because there may be no "legislation" to cover the situation.

All the provinces have one or more pieces of legislation that covers the operation of vehicles and the licensing of drivers, including a requirement to produce the applicable provincial drivers license when so demanded by a police officer.  That legislation also (usually) includes exemptions to that requirement.  In Ontario, the Highway Traffic Act contains the following.


> As to carrying licences and surrender on demand
> 
> 33.  (1)  Every driver of a motor vehicle or street car shall carry his or her licence with him or her at all times while he or she is in charge of a motor vehicle or street car and shall surrender the licence for reasonable inspection upon the demand of a police officer or officer appointed for carrying out the provisions of this Act. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 33 (1).
> 
> ...



In Alberta, one of the pieces of legislation that deals with licensing also includes a similar exemption for "foreign" military members (if they are licensed in their home country) who are in Canada under SOFA.  However, I haven't found any legislation or regulation that exempts a member of the CF from producing his PDL when duly requested by a police officer.

The reason why civilian authorities may want to see a PDL and not just a DND 404 may be explained by this:
http://www.accessandprivacy.gov.on.ca/english/pir/mun/i94-048m.html


> INVESTIGATION REPORT
> INVESTIGATION I94-048M
> A REGIONAL POLICE
> 
> ...


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## helpup (26 Jan 2009)

Getting back to a earlier post about complaining about a ticket.  I have had about a 5 in over 20 years ( well spaced out ) And I have gotten a by on 5 more.  I have never complained for getting one. Once I see the lights on I pull over car off, lights on hands on steering wheel. and go from there. The LEO is doing his job and I am not there to make it harder.  My own driving habits are to drive the speed of traffic, usually just fast enough to pass people.  On long trips this keeps me fully engaged on the road and less Zoning out. I pass only were allowed and only if i have enough of a count to fully and safely get by the guy in front. I slow down if I notice on coming traffic does not do that.  I firmly follow the 2-3 second rule for following traffic. Most of the times I have been caught were in hilly sections at night when I noticed a headlight approaching and I stomp on the gas to ensure I pass safely. ( the oncoming naturally being a LEO ) Also on caveat when in Montreal I drive like a native ( it is the only safe way )
In military veh I tend to stay with the traffic herd more. And in Convoy follow the speed and spacing dictated. 

Each time I get pulled over the same thing happens. Cop walks up and says do you know how fast you were going.  "I did the moment I saw you" that being the truth.


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## my72jeep (26 Jan 2009)

I was pulled over by an OPP once on Hwy 26 near Borden. not for speeding, but for suspicious activity I was running a Adv. Trg program (we were canoeing the notawasaga) in and out of back roads to get to the river. Well this OPP had no problem with the 404's it was the inability to produce the paper work,(insurance and registration) 2 hours on the side of the road waiting for his shift Sgt. and a MP to attend. The next day I was orderd to return my 51/4 ton and sign for a civ pickup, as it comes with some paper work.


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## geo (26 Jan 2009)

jeep...
DND vehicle paperwork.... "work ticket" = registration
Insurance.... DND & CF carry what is refered to as "self assumed insurance" - Dealing thru the Underwriter's adjustment bureau (UAB)

It's all in how you explain it to the LEO


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## Bzzliteyr (26 Jan 2009)

Not just that, but it's all about what you know.  I am pretty darned sure that most soldiers (admittedly myself included) would not know that kind of stuff geo.

I got stopped in Notre Dame du Lac in December on one of my 8 hour IR posting drives back from Gagetown. I pulled over, hands on steering wheel and when asked for licence, registration, etc.. I produced all that and my military ID card.  My theory on this is that it is always good to signal who I am and worst case is they will return it with no need for it.  

I was given a verbal warning and allowed to carry on my voyage that day.


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## gaspasser (26 Jan 2009)

geo said:
			
		

> jeep...
> DND vehicle paperwork.... "work ticket" = registration
> Insurance.... DND & CF carry what is refered to as "self assumed insurance" - Dealing thru the Underwriter's adjustment bureau (UAB)
> 
> It's all in how you explain it to the LEO


bzzlityr,
this information SHOULD have been given to you when you did a BDT or BDW crse.  If not, then the DS were not doing thier job.  
True, your work ticket is your registration and insurance (DND does not carry insurance BTW) for that vehicle and is your authorization to be operating that vehicle.  
The strange thing is: you do not require a PDL to hold a 404.  But if you loose you PDL for any reason, there goes your 404s too.  When operating DND vehicles, you are not required to produce you PDL when pulled over for a driving infraction by the police.
What a long thread over a simple thing.  Lets get back to the original idea behind this thread...Keep the speed down to the limit and what DDC has taught you!  And remember, here in Ontario, 50km over ANY speed limit is considered racing and dangerous driving.  YOU will loose you license on the spot!


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## geo (26 Jan 2009)

> DND does not carry insurance BTW


That is something you should NEVER say to either LEOs or persons with whom you have just gotten into a collision with.  You're just going to upset the locals - who don't understand the concept.

DND vehicles ARE insured by the Government of Canada itself.... AKA self assumed insurance... The Government of Canada will compensate insurance companies for losses & repair it's own fleet at it's own expense.
The UAB has been contracted out by the Government of Canada to deal with the paperwork...


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## GUNS (26 Jan 2009)

When I knew I would be off base in a DND vehicle, I would always leave my civvy driver's licence in my locker. 
I was only pulled over once (rolling stop), produced 404's,ID. He asked for my civvy licence, told the officer that I never carry my civvy licence when operating a DND vehicle. 
He seemed unsure as to what to do, he went back to his vehicle, five minutes later he returns and instructed me on the proper method of coming to a complete stop, told to be more attentive to my driving and let me go.  :warstory:

Flip side of story, I was just posted to Valcartier from Petawawa and had not changed over my civvy licence. God knows how it would have turned out if I produced my civvy licence. Another thing may have helped, his English was as bad as my French.


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## my72jeep (26 Jan 2009)

geo said:
			
		

> jeep...
> DND vehicle paperwork.... "work ticket" = registration
> Insurance.... DND & CF carry what is refer ed to as "self assumed insurance" - Dealing thru the Underwriter's adjustment bureau (UAB)
> 
> It's all in how you explain it to the LEO


I know that but the OPP officer with 7 months on the job did not grasp this simple concept.


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## The_Falcon (27 Jan 2009)

as promised here is that email



> From:
> Sent:	Friday, 23, January, 2009 10:15 AM
> To:	#32 CBG TPT Reps
> Cc:	#32 CBG Ops & Training
> ...



Names removed


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## George Wallace (27 Jan 2009)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> as promised here is that email
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It was very frustrating to look up on AEL, but someone finally sent me a link and there is no Chapter 3, Section 2, para 8.

What I found was: 
A-LM-158-005/AG-001, TRANSPORTATION MANUAL 
(Supersedes A-LM-158-005/AG-001 dated 2006-01-01)
(Supersedes A-LM-158-005/AG-001 dated 2007-05-17)

Chapter 3, Section 2, does not have a para 8.  It does have this:



> SECTION 2
> 
> FEDERAL/PROVINCIAL REGULATIONS
> 
> ...


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## TN2IC (27 Jan 2009)

Jager said:
			
		

> And what does the LEO do if the 404 Auth driver doesn't have a Civi drivers permit of any kind at all? Would that be a problem for them (either the Leo, or member), or no? Just wondering since you said that they use the Civi license in there report afterwards.



Let me add a little more info here to clear the sky.


Well here if you do not carry a civi license, you should have some form of Provincial ID.. and the ID's they issue out here will carry the same master number as the PDL. It follows the same system. ie Proof of Age ID system.


Regards,
Mr Plow


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## Nfld Sapper (29 Jan 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Names removed
> 
> 
> It was very frustrating to look up on AEL, but someone finally sent me a link and there is no Chapter 3, Section 2, para 8.
> ...



So in other words George someone rewrote the para to thier liking


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## George Wallace (29 Jan 2009)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> So in other words George someone rewrote the para to thier liking



Someone "MIS-read" the Para 8 from an obsolete publication.     ;D


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## TN2IC (29 Jan 2009)

Did you try to look at the *TD's * in the back of the book. That is (I believe) the "updated" part of the 158-5. I don't have the book in front to look it up.

Regards,
Mr Plow


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## George Wallace (29 Jan 2009)

Mr Plow said:
			
		

> Did you try to look at the *TD's * in the back of the book. That is (I believe) the "updated" part of the 158-5. I don't have the book in front to look it up.
> 
> Regards,
> Mr Plow




Here!    Try this link:

http://dgmssc.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/dtn/dtn2/en/transportation_publication_and_policy1_e.asp


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## TN2IC (29 Jan 2009)

Ah yes... the DIN. I"m at home now. Just got off a night shift of plowing. I"m lucky to go on the DIN these days to just check my e-mail. I"m always on the road. Does the TD's state anything Mr. Wallace? They are located in the back of the book.

Regards,
Mr Plow


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## George Wallace (29 Jan 2009)

Mr Plow said:
			
		

> Ah yes... the DIN. I"m at home now. Just got off a night shift of plowing. I"m lucky to go on the DIN these days to just check my e-mail. I"m always on the road. Does the TD's state anything Mr. Wallace? They are located in the back of the book.
> 
> Regards,
> Mr Plow



Scrolling through a couple hundred TD's there was nothing that I could find that was in ref this matter.


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## TN2IC (29 Jan 2009)

I"m a little rusty here..  there is a water down (user friendly) version of the 158-5. I believe it's MB-003 or MB-001.. either or. One is the Driver Regulations and the other is the Dangerous Good PAM. It's been a while, but *may be* that Driver Manual/Regulation can help you out. Hopfully it can shed some light on this subject.

Regards,
Mr. Plow


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## mariomike (29 Jan 2009)

HOURS OF SERVICE
Ontario HTA link removed.


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## Nfld Sapper (29 Jan 2009)

Which we _don't have to_ abide by.


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## mariomike (29 Jan 2009)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Which we _don't have to_ abide by.



I didn't mean to imply that you did.
I'll remove the link, if I can.


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## Nfld Sapper (29 Jan 2009)

Nah leave it, might be beneficial for someone.....


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## gaspasser (29 Jan 2009)

mariomike said:
			
		

> HOURS OF SERVICE
> Ontario HTA link removed.


My change in here...
If you're talking about how long drivers can drive...MSEOps here have to follow OHT HoS for commercial operators.  Which basically are: you can drive 10 hours for 12 or 13 hours on duty.  So, if I leave here at 0800, I must pull over at 2000, or close to it. For some reason MDOs and MSEOps here aren't allowed to sleep in the sleeper...sucks, that's $50 out my pocket!..
Oh, and the MSEO makes us use logbooks...to prove we worked properly and if pulled over !
What the field people do is their business, but don't get hauled over and tell the cop you've been driving beyond that!!
Cheers, BYTD


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## helpup (30 Jan 2009)

Here is a twist that I could use help in getting a answer on.  I have a Pte who was slated to go on his Drv Wheel Crse.  He lost his licence in Dec ( court case happened ) for speeding.  Since he lost his licence they would not put him on the course in Jan.  He did not have 404's prior to his court case.  If we don't need a civi licence to have 404's ( and I know we don't ) then why does his record on civi licence affect him being put on a Drv Crse.  I think this ties in to the new Drag Racing Laws, Dangerous driving record or something like that.  Still what we have is a young 20 year old who was speeding ( and being stupid for the amount he was going over ) He has learned his lesson the hard way, and yet we wont give this man a driving qualification that in my trade means he will be supervised in most of his driving tasks. Taught how to drive safely and Defensively.  

Any thoughts?


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## George Wallace (30 Jan 2009)

READ the Transportation Manual and your questions will be answered.



> SUSPENSION AND REINSTATEMENT OF DND DRIVER/OPERATOR PERMIT
> 18.	The holding of a DND Driver’s permit is a privilege not a right and may be suspended or permanently revoked at any time in the interest of safety by the issuing authority/TA. Factors, which could necessitate this administrative action, are: criminal code offences; numerous preventable collisions; unsafe driving practice; PDL suspensions; etc. The Permit shall only be reinstated once the issuing authority/TA is satisfied that the member/employee has undergone any remedial training that the issuing authority/TA has deemed necessary (i.e., DDC, etc.). Refer to Section 3 for action to be taken in case of PDL suspension.





> PDL SUSPENSION
> 33.		The policy and procedures governing the suspension of the DND Driver/Operator Permit, due to the suspension of the PDL, for CF members and DND employees are contained in:
> 
> a.	Civilian Personnel. TD 531 (includes sample letter of warning).
> ...


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## helpup (30 Jan 2009)

That actually is on my "to do" list this morning.


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## helpup (30 Jan 2009)

Thanks George you saved me some searching.  

Now the point I want to re-interate is this kid doesn't have 404's and would have to go through the DDC and Drv Wheel Crse prior to getting them.  I understand if they do not want to put him on it due to his loss of civi licence ( I understand but do not agree with ) And with the passages you have shown outside of the caveat of they feel it is a safety issue. This deals with suspension/ revoking of 404's if you have a loss of civi licence after you already are a Mil Driver.  This kid does not fit that profile.  Granted the time of his suspension is close to the time we want to put him on course for it.  But that in part is the court time lag as the actual offence occurred almost a year ago.  He would also by taking his DDC meet some of the guidelines for being able to get his 404's back.


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## TN2IC (30 Jan 2009)

If the lad doesn't have a PDL before having a 404's... I *personally* think he would be fine for a DDC/DVR WHEEL Course. If my memory is correct, you do not require a PDL to operate a DND vehicle. *But* on other terms I heard you could not leave DND property without a PDL. 

May be that second part is just rumour. I honestly don't recall anymore. I operate, not drive a desk, like MSE Safety (eww).  


Regards,
Mr Plow


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## George Wallace (30 Jan 2009)

It states that it is at the discretion of the TA whether or not a 404 will be issued if the member has an offence or suspension on their PDL.  

Why issue a 404, only to revoke it for a civilian offence?

A DDC, is not a Lic, so there should be no problem loading members on such courses.  Dvr Wheel is a completely different story.

You do not need a PDL to leave DND property if you hold a valid 404.  A 404 can, however, be issued that restricts a driver to driving only on DND property.


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## Fishbone Jones (30 Jan 2009)

This whole thread would be unnecessary if people followed the rules and didn't put themselves in a position where they have to show or surrender either their PDL or 404 to the authorities.


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## helpup (30 Jan 2009)

Well the answer I got was " we don't allow those who lost a civi licence to drive a military vehicle until they have gone through corrective training and or punishment. " 
- I pointed out he does not have a mil licence yet. 
-they point out " well that is our policy and it is clearly stated. "
- I point out " your right it does state that if you are currently a 404's holder"
-they point out " so where is the difficulty" 

this ranks up there with the dumbest thing I have heard today.

Anyhow my plan of action is to hit our Tn to send a letter to MSE.  Explain the situation again and state we realize the policy ( see a$$ covering )
In said letter explain that for corrective measures we placed this guy on the DDC and would like to continue with his corrective measures Safe backing 404's Mil Pat but no A1 B1 ( civi pattern. ) he will be properly supervised at all stages and evaluated for a minimum of a year ( we get our driver and with luck LAV drv )  Personally I don't care if he gets his civi licence back.  But at this early stage of career and for the Tour having him Driver qualified will help.


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## Fishbone Jones (30 Jan 2009)

That's why, at one time, our A vehicles (tanks, carriers, Ferrets, etc) weren't on our 404's. They were exempt. You took the course, got the qualification and it went into your UER. That way some non pointy end Master Driver 5,000 miles away couldn't tell us Tpr Bloggins wasn't allowed to operate said vehicle on ex or ops, and threw a fuck into your crew/Tp/Sqn orbat, because of a problem with his 404's or PDL. 

Life was so much simpler before self important empire builders gained a foot hold.


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## TN2IC (30 Jan 2009)

helpup said:
			
		

> Anyhow my plan of action is to hit our Tn to send a letter to MSE.  Explain the situation again and state we realize the policy ( see a$$ covering )
> In said letter explain that for corrective measures we placed this guy on the DDC and would like to continue with his corrective measures Safe backing 404's Mil Pat but no A1 B1 ( civi pattern. ) he will be properly supervised at all stages and evaluated for a minimum of a year ( we get our driver and with luck LAV drv )  Personally I don't care if he gets his civi licence back.  But at this early stage of career and for the Tour having him Driver qualified will help.




A DDC course with safe backing automatically gives you A1 B1.. but I strongly believe in a road test at the end. Not just for him.. but for everyone in CF.
I"m just wondering what is the pre req for the LAV? Air brakes? Or is that included in the LAV course? If it's nothing major, then I honestly see no problem. And that is coming from the MSE field.

Regards,
Mr Plow


Recceguy.. I totally agree with the whole UER concept. Some things in the CF should of been left alone.


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## Nfld Sapper (30 Jan 2009)

I got LAV III air brakes but no LAV III Driver Quals lol.


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## TN2IC (30 Jan 2009)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> I got LAV III air brakes but no LAV III Driver Quals lol.



I got it too. Only LAV thing I did was load one on a flatbed and chain it down... that's about my experience with pointy green stuff.


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## dangerboy (30 Jan 2009)

Mr Plow said:
			
		

> I"m just wondering what is the pre req for the LAV? Air brakes? Or is that included in the LAV course? If it's nothing major, then I honestly see no problem. And that is coming from the MSE field.



The pre req for LAV Driver are : DDC be qualified a "B" vehicle and air brakes.  The air brakes course is separate from the LAV Driver course.


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## PuckChaser (30 Jan 2009)

Mr Plow said:
			
		

> A DDC course with safe backing automatically gives you A1 B1.. but I strongly believe in a road test at the end. Not just for him.. but for everyone in CF.



You only get A1 and B1 if you have a full civvie license. I had a G1 when I started my 404 process, G2 later on after I was already qualified Milcot, LS, ML + trailers and troop lift, but couldn't drive staff car or pickups. Had to do 2 roadtests before I could get the A1 B1.... woulda been easier to get my full G, but it was a 6 month wait after booking in Kingston at that point.

I agree with the roadtest statement, may prevent a few pers from holding 404s for a while until they get remedial training.


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## George Wallace (30 Jan 2009)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> I got LAV III air brakes but no LAV III Driver Quals lol.



So do I.  After four days of Air Brake Course, a fifth day to do the LAV portion is not unusual in most places.  You need Air Brake for HLVW, so an extra day finishes off the week.   Next year you may get a LAV Crse.  You are all set.


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## George Wallace (30 Jan 2009)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> You only get A1 and B1 if you have a full civvie license. I had a G1 when I started my 404 process, G2 later on after I was already qualified Milcot, LS, ML + trailers and troop lift, but couldn't drive staff car or pickups. Had to do 2 roadtests before I could get the A1 B1.... woulda been easier to get my full G, but it was a 6 month wait after booking in Kingston at that point.



You were lucky.



> CHAPTER 5
> 
> SECTION 1
> 
> ...


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## bwatch (6 May 2011)

If it was DND you where driving, I would think the RCMP in this case, should have let the MP's deal with it. You did have DND Plates.  I can say this now. When I started driving for DND during the Montreal Olympic Games, all I had was a Motorcycle Licence and it was good enough.


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## Strike (6 May 2011)

You know, the last time this guy was active was March 30, 2009, 21:40:17.


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