# Kit Retention (Lack of it!!!) Upon Departing Saint Jean



## Klc (29 Nov 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Although those not yet BMQ qualified are only entitled to the IECS (olive drab gortex), but absolutely none should still be in OG107 olive drab combat jackets anymore.



I know that many of us students at CFSCE in Kingston still have the old combat jackets - although when they have the ICES in stock they are happy to replace at QM.
Then again, we (regf students in training) don't really need anything better then the old jacket. Let the kit go to someone who needs it. (Now why they took my combat gloves from me when I left St. Jean last spring, still boggles my mind )


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## DirtyDog (29 Nov 2007)

Klc said:
			
		

> (Now why they took my combat gloves from me when I left St. Jean last spring, still boggles my mind )


When we left St. Jean for Meaford in the middle of Feburary, they took both our toques and gloves.  Marching for the few days was a painful experience until we drew another set from stores.  My ears burn just thinking about it. ;D

They  you keep some of the more ridiculous stuff, yet take your toques and gloves in the middle of winter.


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## armyvern (29 Nov 2007)

Klc said:
			
		

> Then again, we (regf students in training) don't really need anything better then the old jacket. Let the kit go to someone who needs it. *(Now why they took my combat gloves from me when I left St. Jean last spring, still boggles my mind )*



The fact that Saint Jean wastes time taking back Land Op kit from Land Force personnel when they leave there is one of my biggest complaints. Those pers then end up here -- going immediately into the field on further career training -- and have to come through us to get re-issued every single damned thing that Saint Jean took away from them!! That makes sense now doesn't it? Take away the Army kit from the graduated recruits if you want, but at least allow the Land Force recruits retain it -- after all, they are then coming here to the "Home of the Army" to get trained.

The PYs wasted on THAT crap is ridiculous. The official reasoning is that they NEED the kit for the recruits, so they MUST keep it there.

My answer to that is "Well, the candidates here also NEED that kit, so because you are keeping it THERE, I have to IOR it so that they can go into the field here. And, I'll tell you this much -- it's a hell of a lot cheaper to resupply Saint Jean on an IOR basis from that big 25CFSD Montreal sitting right beside it than it is to resupply ME from that same 25CFSD just as often!!"

That being said ... it's a problem that is having a HUGE impact on career training in this location (that can be easily corrected by having Land Force pers retain their Army kit upon departure from saint Jean -- and re-supplying Saint Jean instead -- a mere hour up the road vice a day), and is being officially addressed by this location right now. Boy, the historical data on IORs, costs, PYs, the costs of making a soldier return kit only to have it re-issued a couple days later at another base ... everything ... is being put on paper. Heck, I even know how much it's costing to have those drivers make the repeated TD runs to Gagetown from the depot ... vice "it's all in a days work" runs to saint Jean.  

Where the hell is that fiscal management award?? That's twice in one week damnit!!  >


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## Klc (29 Nov 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> AH!  Well, you see, CFSCE was mostly "Air" until this past summer when it was designated as a "Land" 'institution'.    ;D
> 
> Perhaps therein lies the rub.   :-\



This past summer? I guess it was mostly an administrative thing, as the only change of command I remember was the school chief.

Either way, it's St. Jean and Borden that are giving us the old stuff (And I say again, we don't need anything newer... we're students. Besides, I appreciate my shiny "new" OD ICES that much more having worn the jean jacket a little while.)

Yeah, I'll take this to PM rather then bogging the thread down, but was it hard to get kit on arriving at meaford? I have (or rather don't have) a whole pile of missing stuff, and I'm wondering if I should try and get what I can at Borden before heading down. I'll be finally headed up there for SQ in January.....


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## armyvern (29 Nov 2007)

DirtyDog said:
			
		

> When we left St. Jean for Meaford in the middle of Feburary, they took both our toques and gloves.  Marching for the few days was a painful experience until we drew another set from stores.  My ears burn just thinking about it. ;D



A couple of February's ago, I received a call at home on a Saturday night from an instructor at one of the schools whose candidates had begun showing up from Saint Jean Friday night. Their career course was slated to begin on Monday -- straight out to the field. Saint Jean had not even allowed them to retain their friggin' jackets let alone their gloves!! I was furious as you can well imagine. It was -26 that day. What utter bullshit that is. I called up a few of my staff on the phone & made arrangements with the instructor to open up clothing Sunday evening once all his candidates were on ground so that we could issue them the winter kit they should _never_ have had taken away from them in the first place. Unfreakinbelieveable.

Things like this should NEVER be allowed to happen -- and, hopefully, this latest round of facts, figures & budget numbers gets it FIXED once and for all.


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## Klc (29 Nov 2007)

Hate to continue the treadjack but I just remembered (what I thought was) the most ridiculous thing leaving St Jean -- I kept my mukluks, but they took the duffel socks(inserts)! WTH??!  ;D


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## armyvern (29 Nov 2007)

Klc said:
			
		

> Hate to continue the treadjack but I just remembered (what I thought was) the most ridiculous thing leaving St Jean -- I kept my mukluks, but they took the duffel socks(inserts)! WTH??!  ;D



No highjack required!!

I have witchly powers that allow me to split it off!!  >


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## DirtyDog (29 Nov 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Things like this should NEVER be allowed to happen -- and, hopefully, this latest round of facts, figures & budget numbers gets it FIXED once and for all.


I agree.  That was one of my first exposures to some of the more "perplexing" aspects of the CF.  Glad to hear something's being done about it (or atleast attempted).


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## camochick (29 Nov 2007)

I just left St Jean and they took my awesome cadpat rain gear (the airforce got to keep the rain gear WTF, i loved my rain gear especially in rainy old farnham), my combat gloves, my helmet, and assorted other kit but yet they made me keep my old timey webbing (with no mag pouches) even though I will be issued a tac vest in SQ. I don't get it!


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## DirtyDog (29 Nov 2007)

Recruits in St-Jean are getting CADPAT rain gear?


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## camochick (29 Nov 2007)

Yeah and the new recruits are getting tac vests now too instead of webbing!!


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## GK .Dundas (30 Nov 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> A couple of February's ago, I received a call at home on a Saturday night from an instructor at one of the schools whose candidates had begun showing up from Saint Jean Friday night. Their career course was slated to begin on Monday -- straight out to the field. Saint Jean had not even allowed them to retain their friggin' jackets let alone their gloves!! I was furious as you can well imagine. It was -26 that day. What utter bullshit that is. I called up a few of my staff on the phone & made arrangements with the instructor to open up clothing Sunday evening once all his candidates were on ground so that we could issue them the winter kit they should _never_ have had taken away from them in the first place. Unfreakinbelieveable.
> 
> Things like this should NEVER be allowed to happen -- and, hopefully, this latest round of facts, figures & budget numbers gets it FIXED once and for all.


You rock Vern!
 It's supposed to be the first ,the mission ,then the troops, stripping your troops of clothing  because theres less paperwork involved (And I suspect this may be part of it,or  but we 've always done it this way. )then requisitioning  new stuff  because someone is too ******* lazy to do it shouldn't even be on the list


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## Klc (30 Nov 2007)

camochick said:
			
		

> Yeah and the new recruits are getting tac vests now too instead of webbing!!



I nearly puked when I saw that when I was leaving -- as of early spring, the new courses coming in were getting tacvests and cadpat raingear...

How are they supposed to realize how much better new kit is when they never touch the old stuff.... We were 'slightly miffed' to say the least.... Where is the "fun" of making a 'platoon standard' way to pile each persons webbing in ranks at the side of the parade square in HD-4?!  ;D


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## xmarcx (30 Nov 2007)

When I finished up BOTP I like everyone else had to return a whole bunch of kit, despite being posted to the language school at the same base for another 8 months. Now we're a week or so away from heading out to Gagetown and a few young subbies have attempted to get their hands on some basic kit like gloves or thermal underwear or even socks. Well one of my buddies got just about the best possible response yesterday, when he was told, and I quote "We can't give you any kit, because you aren't a real person yet. When you leave here and go to your next base and do your training, then you'll be a real person and you can have some kit."

So, while I recognize that it would be much cheaper just to issue kit or even let soldiers keep it on their way out the door,  I'm really starting to appreciate the logic in operation here at St-Jean. They have plenty of kit, and they are located practically next door to the source of all this kit, but it would be completely irresponsible to entrust any of that kit to fake people.


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## armyvern (30 Nov 2007)

camochick said:
			
		

> I just left St Jean and they took my awesome cadpat rain gear (the airforce got to keep the rain gear WTF, i loved my rain gear especially in rainy old farnham), my combat gloves, my helmet, and assorted other kit but yet they made me keep my old timey webbing (with no mag pouches) even though I will be issued a tac vest in SQ. I don't get it!



That's because the cadpat raingear belongs to the Air Force. It's an Air Force item of kit -- is only now just beginning to be rolled out to the Army. Field soldiers first -- as it should be.

You'll get the TV on a temp loan only for your SQ course. You may end up posted to a base where there is NO entitlement to a Tac Vest -- ergo your retention of the webbing. You are Army DEU, but you are a support trade so there is no guaranteed entitlement to the TV,; it depends upon what Unit you end up posted to. If you end up posted to a base and a Unit that is entitled to the TV, you'll then exchange your webbing for the TV at that Unit's supporting clothing stores.


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## Klc (30 Nov 2007)

warrior vegetable said:
			
		

> "We can't give you any kit, because you aren't a real person yet. When you leave here and go to your next base and do your training, then you'll be a real person and you can have some kit."



Same reason we sewed our nametags onto kit rather then writing it on... Something along the lines of "We know your either going to fail or VR anyway - so better to leave the kit for the REAL soldier who will take your place."  ;D


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## DirtyDog (30 Nov 2007)

camochick said:
			
		

> Yeah and the new recruits are getting tac vests now too instead of webbing!!


That doesn't bother me so much as I have one of those. 

CADPAT rain gear however.....


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## DirtyDog (30 Nov 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> That's because the cadpat raingear belongs to the Air Force. It's an Air Force item of kit --


This isn't meant as a slight to the Air Force, but what was the reasoning for them recieving the kit first?  I realise I don't fully understand all the operational conditions of the Air Force, but what am I'm missing here?


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## armyvern (30 Nov 2007)

warrior vegetable said:
			
		

> When I finished up BOTP I like everyone else had to return a whole bunch of kit, despite being posted to the language school at the same base for another 8 months. Now we're a week or so away from heading out to Gagetown and a few young subbies have attempted to get their hands on some basic kit like gloves or thermal underwear or even socks. Well one of my buddies got just about the best possible response yesterday, when he was told, and I quote "We can't give you any kit, because you aren't a real person yet. When you leave here and go to your next base and do your training, then you'll be a real person and you can have some kit."
> 
> So, while I recognize that it would be much cheaper just to issue kit or even let soldiers keep it on their way out the door,  I'm really starting to appreciate the logic in operation here at St-Jean. They have plenty of kit, and they are located practically next door to the source of all this kit, but it would be completely irresponsible to entrust any of that kit to fake people.



Is that what was actually said -- or is that his translation of it?

Officially "you are not entitled to it until you have sucessfully completed Phase IV etc" (depends which kit we're talking).

And no, the base you are departing won't issue you any field kit ... your whole course will go through clothing stores here and will be issued the entire D01301 Land Field Ops scale of clothing, where you'll get IECS instead of ICE as per the entitlement, along with everything else you'll need out there in the woods.

Gagetown is the location that handles the initial issues of that scale to Army Course candidiates (unless they do a battle school etc somewhere else).


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## Scoobie Newbie (30 Nov 2007)

Must be an RCR thing.  Our entire BN has it regardless of tour etc (seeing as you use Arid Gortex oversea's anyway).


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## armyvern (30 Nov 2007)

DirtyDog said:
			
		

> This isn't meant as a slight to the Air Force, but what was the reasoning for them recieving the kit first?  I realise I don't fully understand all the operational conditions of the Air Force, but what am I'm missing here?



They didn't "receive" the kit first. They actually bought and paid for it for their soldiers. The Army didn't.

The Air Force did that while CTS was still drawing up plans on the Tac Vest!!  > The Army is only now getting around to buying cadpat raingear for their troops.

Run a site search ... it's all explained here somewhere ... many times.


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## DirtyDog (30 Nov 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> They didn't "receive" the kit first. They actually bought and paid for it for their soldiers. The Army didn't.
> 
> The Air Force did that while CTS was still drawing up plans on the Tac Vest!!  > The Army is only now getting around to buying cadpat raingear for their troops.
> 
> Run a site search ... it's all explained here somewhere ... many times.


Seen.

Did a search, but failed miserably.

Obviously some of the finer points of supply and issue are lost on me.


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## armyvern (30 Nov 2007)

Lone Wolf Quagmire said:
			
		

> Must be an RCR thing.  Our entire BN has it regardless of tour etc (seeing as you use Arid Gortex oversea's anyway).



What item are you talking about? That would help.

Rain gear?? That's being rolled out now on a priority basis to the next battle groups in line for deployment ...


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## rmc_wannabe (30 Nov 2007)

camochick said:
			
		

> Yeah and the new recruits are getting tac vests now too instead of webbing!!



:O dear sweet jesus I got screwed. Here I am, posted to Brigade, QL3 qualified, and I didn't get my mitts on a TacVest until just yesterday !(A year and a half after I was at St. jean  :rage: ). CadPat raingear too? Man...where the hell was that when i was in St. Hubert walking through bogs in the leaky rubber stuff  .

I agree with the general consensus of the thread in saying that "Op tempo requires the gear first, students can wait". However, that being said, basic kit is a must, a MUST for us green types, correction, basic USABLE kit is a must. My theory is.. if its been replaced, they have something better that can make the lives of troops (and recruits) somewhat more bearable.

For now, I'm just a sig with a dream, where one day, all troops can live in a world where their ability is no longer limited by the quality of their kit, but common sense they may or may not possess ;D


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## xmarcx (30 Nov 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Is that what was actually said -- or is that his translation of it?



Actually said. I'm sure it was just an unfortunate translation on behalf of the employee but it struck us as a fairly amusing reason. I understand that field kit will be issued at Gagetown, but we all live off base, and it's winter, it strikes me that something like a pair of gloves should at least be accommodated. Then again, I know of at least one person who went to the same desk and demanded a flight suit, so I can understand if they just want to get rid of us all together


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## Scoobie Newbie (30 Nov 2007)

DirtyDog said:
			
		

> That doesn't bother me so much as I have one of those.
> 
> CADPAT rain gear however.....





			
				Lone Wolf Quagmire said:
			
		

> Must be an RCR thing.  Our entire BN has it regardless of tour etc (seeing as you use Arid Gortex oversea's anyway).



Yes raingear.  The airforce/army combo raingear.  We all got issued it here in BN.  I assumed that dirtydogs post was in ref to the Relish Gortex CADPAT.


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## DirtyDog (30 Nov 2007)

Lone Wolf Quagmire said:
			
		

> Must be an RCR thing.  Our entire BN has it regardless of tour etc (seeing as you use Arid Gortex oversea's anyway).


We were told it was on it's way in an O-group several months ago.

Hopefully we see it before next summer....

In the meantime, stealth suits work wonders.


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## armyvern (30 Nov 2007)

warrior vegetable said:
			
		

> Actually said. I'm sure it was just an unfortunate translation on behalf of the employee but it struck us as a fairly amusing reason. I understand that field kit will be issued at Gagetown, but we all live off base, and it's winter, it strikes me that something like a pair of gloves should at least be accommodated. Then again, I know of at least one person who went to the same desk and demanded a flight suit, so I can understand if they just want to get rid of us all together



It's something I would say to a person I knew ... but my _sarcasm_ voice would be on.

You have gloves no? You should have gloves already. DEU gloves. Combat gloves with green liners. Something. Not none.


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## rmc_wannabe (30 Nov 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> It's something I would say to a person I knew ... but my _sarcasm_ voice would be on.
> 
> You have gloves no? You should have gloves already. DEU gloves. Combat gloves with green liners. Something. Not none.



DEU Gloves + Combats = Stern talking to ...tried that when i got to Borden...didn't fly too well with the CSM there


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## DirtyDog (30 Nov 2007)

rmc_wannabe said:
			
		

> DEU Gloves + Combats = Stern talking to ...tried that when i got to Borden...didn't fly too well with the CSM there


Since we faced a good possibility of cold inujuries in Meaford, our staff told us to dig out DEU gloves/toques, civvy kit, anything to keep us from freezing.... all the while they cursed Saint Jean.


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## rmc_wannabe (30 Nov 2007)

Oh we faced too in Borden... but we still got a nice little lecture about it lol.


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## Scoobie Newbie (30 Nov 2007)

My previous CO and RSM got a set (cortex rain gear) issued a couple years ago to "trial" when they some some troops walking around in some non-issued CADPAT gear.  Right out in the middle of the field and the TQ had to pull in some favours to get the CO and RSM a set.  Honestly those two trialling them.  From the vehicle to the tent or building.  What kind of trial is that.  Jealousy is what the majority of us thought.


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## armyvern (30 Nov 2007)

rmc_wannabe said:
			
		

> I agree with the general consensus of the thread in saying that "Op tempo requires the gear first, students can wait". However, that being said, basic kit is a must, a MUST for us green types, correction, basic USABLE kit is a must. My theory is.. if its been replaced, they have something better that can make the lives of troops (and recruits) somewhat more bearable.



OK, look at it this way.

While the gortex cadpat rain gear is being delivered into the system and distributed out to those pointy enders who LIVE in the field vice offices first ... there is NO MORE olive drab rain gear being brought into the system (why would we buy more of it too??). So, with there being no more olive drab raingear coming into the system, they had to send the cadpat stuff to Saint Jean else the recruits would have ZERO raingear to wear.

So, you have olive drab rain gear for now ... and when there is ENOUGH cadpat raingear in the system for all Army folks -- you'll get it too. But, you've got raingear for now don't you?? It is USEABLE kit ... it's not the latest and greatest ... but it's useable. It's faults have been noted and that is why it's being replaced ... relax ... yours will come. It's not like you are getting fucked around on purpose by anyone.

So yes, it's being replaced so your theory is correct, but when the budget is only so much and they can only bring in so much at a time -- someone has to wait ... and it sure as heck shouldn't be anyone posted into a Unit that going on Ops or into the field waiting while a student wearing an Army uniform sitting mostly in a classroom gets it first.

If the world were perfect, and our budget from the taxpayers infinite ... all of us would all get the exact same kit, of the proper type, at exactly the same moment in time. But, you live in Canada ... and we just don't see those types of budgets in this nation of ours. So the system does the best it can to look after their pers on a priority basis. No-one has ever said you don't need it -- they just said ... others need it more and first.

That's the big picture.


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## armyvern (30 Nov 2007)

rmc_wannabe said:
			
		

> DEU Gloves + Combats = Stern talking to ...tried that when i got to Borden...didn't fly too well with the CSM there



Do you have combat gloves or not?? If not -- then it is perfectly acceptable AND allowable for you to wear your DEU gloves with your combats. Word up.

If that's the case, perhaps you should have your CoC address the issue? CSMs have been known to be wrong.


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## rmc_wannabe (30 Nov 2007)

Thanks Vern for snapping me back to reality  ;D. Still, I wouldn't mind a toque now a days  (St. Jean took mine ...and i always get posted when its either summer and i don't need one, or winter and there's a shortage...go figure eh lol  )


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## armyvern (30 Nov 2007)

rmc_wannabe said:
			
		

> Thanks Vern for snapping me back to reality  ;D. Still, I wouldn't mind a toque now a days  (St. Jean took mine ...and i always get posted when its either summer and i don't need one, or winter and there's a shortage...go figure eh lol  )



I'll take it then that you did have combat gloves to wear .... but were caught by the CSM wearing DEU gloves anyway??  >


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## rmc_wannabe (30 Nov 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I'll take it then that you did have combat gloves to wear .... but were caught wearing DEU gloves anyway??  >



I had combat gloves (mortar gloves) however at minus 40 they tend to loose their appeal  :-[. But on the plus side, I learned not to do it again


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## armyvern (30 Nov 2007)

rmc_wannabe said:
			
		

> I had combat gloves (mortar gloves) however at minus 40 they tend to loose their appeal  :-[. But on the plus side, I learned not to do it again



Combat gloves aren't mortar gloves.

Then again ... DEU gloves wouldn't work at -40 either.


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## TN2IC (6 Dec 2007)

DirtyDog said:
			
		

> Recruits in St-Jean are getting CADPAT rain gear?



THAT'S IT! I QUIT!


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## geo (6 Dec 2007)

Relax Schultz... we're in our winter gear now. You won't need the rain gear till next spring.


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## armyvern (6 Dec 2007)

Sgt  Schultz said:
			
		

> THAT'S IT! I QUIT!



As per Geo -- 

Relax, you'll live to tell about it. 

 >


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