# New Operational Service Medal Announced



## Patrolman

Has anyone heard if a medal is going to given to those who served on Op Halo? I know there was a lot of discussion on what medal would be the most appropriate. There was talk of awarding the SSM since Canada had participated in both the Multi International Force as well as the U.N. mission. I had had heard the SSM because in order to receive the U.N. medal you had to have served 90 days in theatre under the U.N. which no one had. I had also heard talk of GSM or the GCS but they couldn't  decide on which article the mission fell under.
 The mission ended in August of 2004 and I haven't heard any talk about the subject for quite some time. Has the mission been forgotten? If anyone has any info on the subject it would be appreciated.


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## muffin

http://www.forces.ca/hr/cfpn/pdf/cfpn9_05_e.pdf 

From the Assistant Deputy Minister (Human Resources – Military)
(ADM(HR-Mil)
If you have participated in any of the following operations, you are now eligible to
receive the *Canadian Peacekeeping Service Medal*:
 Op HALO, Multinational Interim Force (MIF) in Haiti, March 7 to May 30, 2004
 ONUCI, UN Operation in Ivory Coast, since April 4, 2004
 Op HAMLET, UN Stabilization Mission in Haiti (MINUSTAH), since June 1, 2004
 Op SAFARI, UN Advance Mission in Sudan (UNAMIS), July 2004 to March 23, 2005
 Op IOLAUS, UN Assistance Mission Iraq (UNAMI), since October 2, 2004
 Op BOREAS, EU Forces (EUFOR) in Bosnia, since December 2, 2004
You must have served a minimum of 30 days in-theatre (not necessarily
consecutive days) to qualify for the CPSM.
Read CANFORGEN 094/05 and references at http://vcds.dwan.dnd.ca/intro_e.asp


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## Patrolman

Thanks muffin I already have the CPSM for Bosnia. I am wondering about a medal for the mission itself. I know the U.N has approved a medal for  MINUSTAH,  but under its award criteria you must have served 90 days under the U.N. which no one did on Op Halo.


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## muffin

I read through the listings for GSM and SSM here

http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dhh/honours_awards/engraph/med1_e.asp?cat=3

and saw info on Afghanistan but nothing on Haiti - sorry.

muffin


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## Spr.Earl

Who cares,I got me birthday medal. ;D


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## Patrolman

Obviously I care. That is why I asked the question. I am sure there are many others who served on the mission who also care and would be interested if anyone has heard anything new on the subject.


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## vonGarvin

I'm quite interested, but as with many others, I already have the CPSM, so I hope I don't lose out by not being eligible to receive a second version of the same medal.  Kind of takes away from the whole purpose.  But the terms of the mission: I don't understand why CPSM for HALO (as part of the MIF, not as part of MINUSTAH).


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## AmmoTech90

Personally I don't think that MIF, especially the first couple of weeks was peacekeeping.  Now I know that its not final but they have authorized the wearing of the MINUSTAH UN medal, for those I believe 2 or 3 pers left with the HQ.  I remember the Contingent Commander saying the worst they can do is award a SSM with bar but it appears even less effort can be exerted than that.  Now unless someone kicks this up, I can see the awards committee leaving it at a CPSM for those that don't already have it and thats it.

Oh well, c'est la vie.  Good to see 430 ETAH got a Commendation for the mission...

D


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## Grunt_031

Right now it looks like the only medal that could be awarded under the current reg is the CPSM (30 day cumulative service)

The SSM could be issued if the mission was declared a Humanitarian mission which requires only 30 Days. 

If it is declared a peacekeeping mission then 180 days are required for SSM with the Peace Bar. 




> Now unless someone kicks this up, I can see the awards committee leaving it at a CPSM for those that don't already have it and thats it.



This is the key, somebody, higher in the food chain, has to fight for it. And it can happen e.g. Op Assurance for Rwanda, Awarded the SSM w/Humanitarian Clasp.


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## vonGarvin

OK, how high up the food chain must one be to fight for a distinctive MIF medal?  Where do I submit my memo?


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## Grunt_031

Well, General Baril was the Commander of Op Assurance and then the medal was issued when he was CDS.


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## Journeyman

vonGarvin said:
			
		

> OK, how high up the food chain must one be to fight for a distinctive MIF medal?  Where do I submit my memo?





			
				Grunt_031 said:
			
		

> Well, General Baril was the Commander of Op Assurance and then the medal was issued when he was CDS.



You're......almost high enough. I think you're ready for CDS today vonG, but give it another year, tops    ;D


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## medicineman

Welcome change - no duty Cpl/MCpl as the Duty CDS  ;D.

MM


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## armyvern

Just read this thread.

I just sent a query to NDHQ last month to query/obtain status of medal for Op Halo MIF personnel as I receive queries on this item quite often as a normal course of my daily duties.

I was sent a response/update as to the current status but am now at home so can not confirm as to what 'exactly' was said. 

IAW the update that I recd I do know that the *only* medal personnel who served on Op Halo MIF are currently awarded/authorized to wear is the CPSM. 

Tomorrow at work I will confirm exactly what was stated as to the status/update of the awarding of mission specific award and will post the latest status on this into this thread.


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## vonGarvin

RUMINT
I heard from "a guy" at work today (no names, no pack drill) that a MIF-Specific medal is in the works in addition to the CPSM.  Don't quote me on this, but I just like supplementing fact with hope sometimes


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## armyvern

vonGarvin said:
			
		

> RUMINT
> I heard from "a guy" at work today (no names, no pack drill) that a MIF-Specific medal is in the works in addition to the CPSM.  Don't quote me on this, but I just like supplementing fact with hope sometimes



Read my post again....I mentioned that I had an update for the Op Halo MIF mission specific recognition...but that I would not post until I confirmed exactly what the response that I got from NDHQ stated. 

When I got to work tomorrow I will consult NDHQs response and post the updated info.


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## vonGarvin

armyvern said:
			
		

> Read my post again....I mentioned that I had an update for the Op Halo MIF mission specific recognition...but that I would not post until I confirmed exactly what the response that I got from NDHQ stated.
> When I got to work tomorrow I will consult NDHQs response and post the updated info.


D'oh.  Sorry bout that.  I must have posted without thinking.....again  :-[


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## Patrolman

The reason why I had posted this question was because for aproximately the last 60 days of the mission we under MINUSTAH which has a medal for those serving 90 days. I had thought that maybe since an entire Task Force was there maybe they would change the criteria since there were so many involved. 

 I think the biggest problem lies in the fact that there were two Infantry companies that served on this mission. The first under the MIF. The second under MINUSTAH. Then there were some who served on both. I believe the majority of the Support element stayed throughout . I served in the second rifle company under MINUSTAH untilour mission ended in August.

 It is for this reason why the SSM seemed to make sense. Everyone would get the same medal regardless of which organization they served under. Point to note the commander of the Task Force recieved the CMM or the OMM for his work on the mission.


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## vonGarvin

Patrolman said:
			
		

> Point to note the commander of the Task Force recieved the CMM or the OMM for his work on the mission.


IMHO, it was well-deserved, and not the only commendation issued for individual performance during Op HALO: two MCpls in I Coy Gp received commendations, of the CDS variety, I believe, but not certain.


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## Patrolman

Just to clarify, I think it was well deserved as well. He was an excellent leader. I wasn't trying to say he got a medal an I didn't wah, wah. Well deserved indeed.


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## armyvern

Patrolman said:
			
		

> It is for this reason why the SSM seemed to make sense. Everyone would get the same medal regardless of which organization they served under. Point to note the commander of the Task Force received the CMM or the OMM for his work on the mission.



There is a very large difference in the 2 tours (MIF and MINUSTAH) and it is for this reason that a standard UN medal (MINUSTAH) or SSM does not make sense:

*Op Halo:* Deployed under a 90 day chapter VII UN Mandate to implement peace, stability and rule of law back into the region. You will recall these pers wore home Unit berets. Their mandate was as Peacemakers. Once they had 'stabilized' the region, they were requested to remain in place until another group could deploy into theatre with a different mandate.

In Jun 04, Haiti was considered 'stabilized' and MIF (Op Halo) handed over to:

*MINUSTAH (Op Hamlet)* whose had a UN Chapter VI madate in the country. These personnel wore UN Blue as their mandate was to maintain the stability and assist with aid, relief etc. They were (and those who currently serve their under the Ch VI mandate still are) peacekeepers.

A chapter VII mission (Peacemaking/MIF-Op Halo) is higher in the order of precedence than a Chapter VI mission (Peacekeeping/MINUSTAH-Op Hamlet). 

UN Chapter VI peacekeeping missions are typically awarded with a UN medal to denote the tour. 

Chapter VII missions are treated much differently due to their order of precedence such as the case for previous Chapter VII deployments such as Somalia. Many levels of approval are required for UN chapter VII missions/medals.


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## Patrolman

O.K. it has now been 7 months since I first posted this topic. I was wondering if anyone has any new info on the subject. Since I have left the battalion I am now out of the loop. O-groups on such things are few and far between.

Van Grognard, have you sent that memo yet? Vern has your husband heard anything? 

In five months it will be three years since the first soldiers departed for Haiti. Is it time for someone to stir the pot? By this I mean should someone start asking questions about the situation outside the military chain of command. Is Col.Davis still asking questions? If not.Who is?


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## Gunner

It is my understanding members deployed on Op HALO will only receive the CPSM, no other medal will be issued.


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## AmmoTech90

Hate to say it but I can believe what Gunner says.

Both infantry components were there less than 90 days which seems to be the threshold for non-warfighting mission medals other than the CPSM.  So they probably realize that they are not going to be successful in petitioning for anything other than the CPSM which has a 30 day criteria.

430 ETAH was awarded a a CF Unit Commendation.  They are probably going to leave it at that.

That leaves the 200-250 members of the NSE/NSE who were there for up to 150 odd days.  As it was an adhoc unit they have not got a parent organization to fight for them so that the end of that.  Pity but we're left with good memories of a good job.  But if I happen to run into the CDS I'll ask him about it.


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## Patrolman

Thanks for the info. I was afraid this might happen,I guess all our hard work will go unrecognized.


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## Gunner

Patrolman said:
			
		

> Thanks for the info. I was afraid this might happen,I guess all our hard work will go unrecognized.



Patrolman, there are lots of deployments not seeing medals but the actions of its members are recognized (including Op HALO).  We have teams training (IMATT) the Sierra Leone Army (RSLAF) who do not receive medals, we have soldiers on their 2nd or 3 rd tour of Afghanistan under Op ARCHER or Op ATHENA and have the SWASM or GSC.  They are all recognized as important contributors to the mission but they don't receive a numeral on their medal or another medal for the same mission.  If you want recogniztion for everything that you do, you are going to have to join the US Army and obtain your "fruit salad" for passing courses and going to work.

Cheers,


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## Patrolman

Gunner

No thanks on the American army. You see my piont is this. Over 600 pers deployed on this mission not a handful. The CO has been recognized,430 Etah has been recognized, now what about the boots on the ground doing the dirty work? This was a full fledged  mission. Have you deployed over seas on a Nato or U.N. mission and never recieved a medal for it ? I am not asking for numerals here or medals for other things I have done in the CF.  Ihave picked up the pieces from Swiss Air(human and plane) and only got a certificate, deployed to the Ice Storm and got nothing, competed in the Cambrian Patrol an recieved the Land Forces Achievement Award. That is all fine but, I believe the contribution I made along with all of the others from Task Force Haiti deserves more recognition than what we have recieved.


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## George Wallace

Patrolman

I think your mention of the commander of the Task Force having received the CMM or the OMM for his work on the mission, is a non-issue.  That is a 'generic' medal presented to persons of that rank basically for performance, not Tours.  He could have just as easily been awarded that for being able to find his office, as for being on that Tour.  

What you are proposing is a re-evaluation of our Awards System to satisfy any group of disgruntled members who feel they have been wronged if they do not meet the criteria as laid out in the Awards System for an Award.  Where would you place the cut off for any other group who may feel they should have an Award?  I know of some who were in Eritrea for the Setup and the Teardown, putting in more time than those deployed, but due to broken time, were not eligible.  Do we go back and change the criteria for all Awards to make their dates shorter, and/or to include accumulated time?  You are basically demanding a total revamping of the Awards System.  That is what you seem to be saying.

[Edit to add:]

In another discussion on Medals and Awards, some are feeling discriminated against when people of rank or 'lesser' Trades show up in Theatre for a TAV and do the minimum amount of time to meet the criteria for a Medal and go home.  

We can't have it both ways.


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## McG

Patrolman said:
			
		

> Have you deployed over seas on a Nato or U.N. mission and never recieved a medal for it ?


Do you mean like many Op ARCHER soldiers that did not receive a medal because they had done Op APOLLO?


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## Gunner

MCG said:
			
		

> Do you mean like many Op ARCHER soldiers that did not receive a medal because they had done Op APOLLO?



Exactly MCG.  There are many soldiers from LFCA who served in Kabul (some twice) and received the General Campaign Star.  These soldiers are now serving for their second or third tour in Afghanistan, down in Kandahar, and they will be recognized as having completed two or three tours in Afghanistan but they still will only have the one medal.  This was a concern raised over the development of the GCS, it is possible for a soldier to have 10 tours to various theatres of operation yet he only has a CD and GCS on his DEU tunic.  There was some discussion about bringing back into service, overseas stripes (1 stripe per six months service overseas) but I don't know where this stands.


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## Infanteer

The GCS seems like a rather lazy award (to clarify; in its creation, not the effort to get one).  If we were able to give our guys 4 or 5 different medals for service in the Balkans (UNPROFOR, Former Yugo, Kosovo, Macedonia, Non-Art 5, etc, etc) why couldn't we create a specific medal for Afghanistan, with numerals perhaps?  Just as the Balkans was -the- theater of the 90's, Afghanistan is -the- theater of the first decade of the new millenia.  I think we can come up with something better than an ugly, generic catch-all.  Even the SWASM with Afghan Bar would be better than a GCS, no?


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## armyvern

Infanteer said:
			
		

> I think we can come up with something better than an ugly, generic catch-all.  Even the SWASM with Afghan Bar would be better than a GCS, no?


I'd agree with your sentiments on the generic catch-all Infanteer.

But a point on the SWASM with the Afghan bar is that there are those from Op Apollo who received this, who returned for future tours to a SWASM with Afghan Bar (therefore nothing as there is no post nominal with this medal or the GCS). Then again there are those 2 medal tours from 2003/04 where the soldiers were presented both the GCS and the SWASM with bar. Guess it all depends on what dates you actually serve in theatre.

I kind of like the suggestion of "overseas" stripes made somewhere in this thread.

Guy with the SWASM and Bar X 2 tours (1 year overseas) with same medal awarded for both gets 2 stripes;
Guy from 2003/2004 receiving both SWASM with bar & the GCS (for one 6 month tour) gets 1 stripe.


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## Infanteer

A numeral would satisfy this requirement without creating anything new, no?

As well, it seems as if the guys with ISAF's new mission should be getting the SWASM, just as the guys they replaced did.  I saw a CANFORGEN that was issued a couple weeks ago stating that wasn't the case, but last week a CANFORGEN came up cancelling that one.  Something's up I guess.


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## armyvern

Infanteer said:
			
		

> A numeral would satisfy this requirement without creating anything new, no?


Yes it certainly would but then the Dress Committee would have to take some time (  ;D ) trying to come up with how to properly wear your SWASM ribbon bar with both a leaf and a numeral !!


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## Gunner

Infanteer said:
			
		

> A numeral would satisfy this requirement without creating anything new, no?
> 
> As well, it seems as if the guys with ISAF's new mission should be getting the SWASM, just as the guys they replaced did.  I saw a CANFORGEN that was issued a couple weeks ago stating that wasn't the case, but last week a CANFORGEN came up cancelling that one.  Something's up I guess.



Numerals are used by the UN but not by NATO (except the original FRY medal). Moreover, our history and heritage did not permit numerals for campaign medals (Ever see a northwest Europe Campaign Star with a 2 or 3 on it?).  

The SWASM was awarded and is still awarded (denoted with Afghanistan Bar) for personnel serving with the US led coalition.  The GCS has been approved for issue for those serving with ISAF (denoted with an ISAF Bar).  

I should mention the GCS was created based on feedback received from soldiers complaining to various commanders about not being recognized in a timely manner for their tour overseas.  With the GCS, a new bar can be awarded whereever it is deemed appropriate.  For instance, if we follow the advice of the NDP and invade Sudan, a new bar could be created for the GCS (Sudanese Security Force - SSF Bar).


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## Infanteer

What's going to happen when guys fill their GCS up with bars?


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## Gunner

Infanteer said:
			
		

> What's going to happen when guys fill their GCS up with bars?



When you are CDS you can sort it out for us!


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## Infanteer

Gunner said:
			
		

> When you are CDS you can sort it out for us!



By that time, medals will be replaced with holographic stickers or something....


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## Gunner

Keep the faith brother, keep the faith.


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## warrickdll

Gunner said:
			
		

> Numerals are used by the UN but not by NATO (except the original FRY medal). Moreover, our history and heritage did not permit numerals for campaign medals (Ever see a northwest Europe Campaign Star with a 2 or 3 on it?).
> ...



You'll have to check out the Africa Star (it had numerals - but not for counting tours/time).

Afghanistan went from General to Specific many years ago. There is no point having the SWASM for some and the GCS for others. Bars on the SWASM can be used to indicate the different missions or even tours (after all, the GCS has a way to indicate multiple bars, and so could the SWASM).

Just say no to stripes.


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## McG

Maybe go with different colour bars.  Silver for one tour and gold for more tours.


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## vonGarvin

My opinion: just as in WWII, there were "campaign stars" for specific campaigns.  No "General Service" campaign stars.  All medals similar in design, varied in the specifics and the ribbon colours of course.

That is all.


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## honestyrules

Op Halo, that switched to UN after the first 3 months, kept the chap.VII clause until the end and ROE's stayed the same until departure from theatre of operations. To me the CPSM wasn't the one to go with.

IMHO


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## armyvern

delavan said:
			
		

> Op Halo, that switched to UN after the first 3 months, kept the chap.VII clause until the end and ROE's stayed the same until departure from theatre of operations. To me the CPSM wasn't the one to go with.
> 
> IMHO


And the Roto Zero guys (including my 9er) are not entitled to be awarded the CPSM for precisely this reason...they were peacemaking not peacekeeping.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/dhh/downloads/honours/cpsm_eligible.pdf

CPSM eligiblity began on 01 June 2004...when the blue Berets came in and the roto 1 pers. Most of the loggies who were there the full six months already had the CPSM.


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## honestyrules

> And the Roto Zero guys (including my 9er) are not entitled to be awarded the CPSM for precisely this reason...they were peacemaking not peacekeeping.



I got the CPSM myself for that mission, and and stayed there 5 1/2 months... (end of March until beginning of August 2004).


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## armyvern

delavan said:
			
		

> I got the CPSM myself for that mission, and and stayed there 5 1/2 months... (end of March until beginning of August 2004).


That'd be because you were there after June 1st...if you were there 5 1/2 months correct? You wore the blue beret on your head for the last half of your tour correct?

As I said...the guys (RCR type like my husband) who went in advance party the first week of March 2004, evaced the airport, cleared the streets, the weapons caches, and tried to make the place somewhat safe, but then came home end-May and early June...don't qualify.


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## Gunner

The Librarian said:
			
		

> That'd be because you were there after June 1st...if you were there 5 1/2 months correct? You wore the blue beret on your head for the last half of your tour correct?
> 
> As I said...the guys (RCR type like my husband) who went in advance party the first week of March 2004, evaced the airport, cleared the streets, the weapons caches, and tried to make the place somewhat safe, but then came home end-May and early June...don't qualify.



If you look at your link, on the last page, it states that they are entitled to the CPSM "MIF (Multinational Interim Force in Haiti) (7 March - 20 May 2004) (Op HALO)".  Whether the mission is given a Chapter 6 or 7 mandate has little to do with whether the CPSM is given.


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## armyvern

Gunner said:
			
		

> If you look at your link, on the last page, it states that they are entitled to the CPSM "MIF (Multinational Interim Force in Haiti) (7 March - 20 May 2004) (Op HALO)".  Whether the mission is given a Chapter 6 or 7 mandate has little to do with whether the CPSM is given.


Well, there's a whole bunch of them still waiting...


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## Gunner

The Librarian said:
			
		

> Well, there's a whole bunch of them still waiting...



In addition to the document you provided, IIRC there was also a CANFORGEN in Fall 2005 stating they were entitled to the CPSM.  If they are still waiting to be awarded the CPSM....sounds like their chain of command has some issues ...


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## vonGarvin

There must be some bad PR on the eligibility of the CPSM, for I have heard nothing, and I was in theatre from 17 March until 6 June of 04.  In fact, I rode a LAV with "The Librarian's" 9er (as she put it, NOT me  ).  There were a lot of younger lads who were on their first tour, so this would be their first medal.  As I already have been awarded the CPSM, I guess I already got mine 

Oh well, too bad.

Maybe next tour?



And I'm still waiting for my "Oka" medal 

(Don't worry, I'm not serious about that.  I mean, yes, I was there, but I'm not waiting for a medal for Oka)


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## Infanteer

SSM Bar?


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## armyvern

Infanteer said:
			
		

> SSM Bar?


Need 180 days of peacekeeping total to get the "Peace" bar to the SSM if your peacekeeping tour is not recognized via it's own medal.

They've only got between 85-100 days 'not' peacekeeping.

So in order to qualify for the SSM with Peace Bar..or just the peace bar if they already have the SSM, these guys would have to do another "peacekeeping" tour that is not recognized by it's own medal for another 85-100 days before they'd qualify. Then we run into the same situation as is already being discussed...two seperate and distinct tours and one generic medal to show for it.


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## Krosis

Its to bad that all they are giving for this mission is the CPSM, which I already had from Bosnia in 2000. I was in Haiti early March right till the end in August. The Commander was talking about us possibly receiving 2 Medals for the mission now it looks like most of us will receive nothing for our efforts here. 

I am currently deployed in that place does not exist and its shit like this that really will make it that much harder to accept another mission in the future. No tax break for this mission....no medal for almost 6 months in Haiti and 3 deployments in the last 6 years (all summer tours) has really put a damper on my attitude, specially when you see people back home in Canada with no deployments at all.

/rant off


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## PhilB

Mirage should in no way be tax free! I dont think it should be a "tour" posting is more like it.


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## Krosis

I disagree 100%. Any time we deploy outside Canada our wage should be tax free. Civilians who are over seas for more then 6 months receive tax free wages so why should we be any different. We have Hardship & Risk to reward those who go into risky places. I think if you ask most of the people who are in Mirage, they would tell you that they would be much rather up North (specially since most of us are support trades and we don't go outside the wire anyhow) making 3x the money we do when in Mirage. By having the tax break for one deployment creates division and resentment, it also could very well be the difference in someone that Dag's red or not for a tour. Honestly if you new you could go up North and make between $25000-$30000 or stay in Mirage and make $8000 for the same tour duration what would you choose?. My point is that the tax free benefit should not be tied to risk and instead should be used as an incentive to those people who actually will deploy outside of Canada.


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## PhilB

I see the tax break as a reward. Why should those, although contributing to the mission, that spend their tour eating great food, living in almost private shacks with indoor plumbing, and get to go shopping on a daily basis be compensated the same as those who live in tents, use porta-potties, and have nothing for entertainment. Just my two cents having spent time in both places.


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## aesop081

PhilB said:
			
		

> I see the tax break as a reward. Why should those, although contributing to the mission, that spend their tour eating great food, living in almost private shacks with indoor plumbing, and get to go shopping on a daily basis be compensated the same as those who live in tents, use porta-potties, and have nothing for entertainment. Just my two cents having spent time in both places.



You get hardship allowance for living in a tent and using a shitter that has to be burned after use......

Those people in Mirage  have a job to do  that is needed for the war effort. They dont get hardship & danger pay.  Why should they be denied tax free ? If you are in the sandbox, you have your extra pay.....


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## armyvern

PhilB said:
			
		

> I see the tax break as a reward. Why should those, although contributing to the mission, that spend their tour eating great food, living in almost private shacks with indoor plumbing, and get to go shopping on a daily basis be compensated the same as those who live in tents, use porta-potties, and have nothing for entertainment. Just my two cents having spent time in both places.



You know what? I'm tired of BS like this statement. That's a load of pure crap.


Yes they've got better accomodations et al than the guys in the Afghanistan, but you know what? They doing their damn jobs every day not shopping. Enough already. I only spent 8 friggin months there, working 16-17 hour days, I certainly wasn't out shopping every day and neither was anyone else. The food was good, not great. You do your job where you get sent to do your job.

Like it or not, someone has to be there to do those jobs don't they? Don't fault those people for doing their jobs.

The hardship and risk allowances are already higher for the guys in Afghanistan because they obviously have a much higher risk and hardship. What the Heck is the problem with giving those Canadian military pers posted in Camp Mirage the exact same tax-free status that yourself in Afghanistan, or any other Canadian citizen who is outside the country for 6 months enjoys? You are bitching at the wrong tree. You've got Canadians living a really good life on the Riviera's of France etc for 7 months saving those taxs too, yet your going to slam your fellow soldiers for doing their jobs in the place where their government sent them to? Unbelieveable.


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## Krosis

PhilB said:
			
		

> I see the tax break as a reward. Why should those, although contributing to the mission, that spend their tour eating great food, living in almost private shacks with indoor plumbing, and get to go shopping on a daily basis be compensated the same as those who live in tents, use porta-potties, and have nothing for entertainment. Just my two cents having spent time in both places.



Like Cdnaviator said above you get HARDSHIP & RISK allowances that we don't receive in Mirage and those of us in Mirage did not get the choice of being deployed up north. I still have to spend 6 months separated from my Wife & 2 children and if it was not for the people in camp Mirage there would be no Operation up north. When I originally found out I was being deployed to mirage I fought hard to try to get switched to KAF, but we where all told that if we dag red or tried to avoid deploying to mirage that we would be bypassed for the next rotation in KAF and we would be put on the next Mirage tour.


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## PhilB

First off there is absolutely no call for an angry or aggressive tone. I simply stated my opinion, which I am entitled to do. I spent 3months in Mirage, and then 6months in Afghanistan. Having seen both sides of the fence that is my opinion. I understand each side of the coin, and I value all of your points. At the end of the day none of us have a say on it, but I take offense at people trying to flame me for stating an opinion.


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## aesop081

PhilB said:
			
		

> First off there is absolutely no call for an angry or aggressive tone. I simply stated my opinion, which I am entitled to do. I spent 3months in Mirage, and then 6months in Afghanistan. Having seen both sides of the fence that is my opinion. I understand each side of the coin, and I value all of your points. At the end of the day none of us have a say on it, but I take offense at people trying to flame me for stating an opinion.



I didnt flame you.........i read your opinion and offered you mine. Frankly i'm offended that you are offended.


----------



## Teddy Ruxpin

The fact of the matter is that tax free status is linked to the risk factor on missions.  No risk, no tax free - it's that simple.  IIRC, Bosnia was also refused tax free status when the system came out, simply because the risk level there had dropped.  It isn't a "reward" or an entitlement, it's another recognition of the _hazards_ of deploying to certain locations.

Until the system linking tax free status with hardship and risk allowances changes, those serving in locations such as Mirage will have to be content with the current level of financial benefits.


----------



## PhilB

Aviator, my apologies I should have clarified. I was addressing the Librarian. I agree your points were definitely valid and not a flame at all.


----------



## Roy Harding

You know what, folks?

Every serviceman goes where he is told he'll go, and he does what he's tasked to do.  The medals that accrue are not of his choice.

I'm retired now, but during my service I did seven tours, one of which was a "jammy" tour - and I don't apologize for it.  During that tour I worked (no kidding) 12 - 18 hours a day, for seven months straight.

My other tours were Roto Zero's, in austere circumstances - all of which entailed their own special circumstances and conditions.

My last tour was APOLLO 0 in '02, with 3VP - we had beefs with those in Camp Mirage getting the same medal, and we had reasons for those beefs.

In retrospect, I believe some of our complaints and beefs were valid.  Also in retrospect, some weren't.

Here's the point:  doesn't matter who you are, doesn't matter what your trade is, doesn't matter what your rank is, doesn't matter what your circumstances are, what matters is that you SERVED; in the position that the CF wanted you in.  You didn't have a choice regarding where you served, you went where you were required - ALL service is honourable.

For what it's worth, when I first served overseas, we didn't have "tax free status", and when I first went overseas we didn't have "welfare phones", we used "CFARS", and our allowances CERTAINLY weren't what they are now.  

So what?  We served as the CF (through the Government), required us to serve - as do those currently serving.

The petty bickering you are engaged in is pointless - all soldiers go where they are told to go, do what they are told to do, and if they are Canadian, they do it very well.

Bless all of you - you continue to do it very well.


Roy


----------



## armyvern

PhilB said:
			
		

> Aviator, my apologies I should have clarified. I was addressing the Librarian. I agree your points were definitely valid and not a flame at all.



That's ripe. Your offended by me calling you out for insulting the personnel serving in Camp Mirage. Whom YOU insinuated were non-worthy because they spend 6 months eating 'excellent' food, with semi-private rooms and shopping all day. Which is a load of el-toro-poo-poo. Your comment was the flame, not mine; I just addressed it.

Funny, seems that you don't mind slamming people but God forbid one of them bites back. 

And as Mr Harding has said below and as I stated in my original post to you...I am tired of the slamming of the miltary personnel who are serving their country, with comments likes yours, based on where they are serving at. It's BS.


----------



## PhilB

I in no way insinuated or stated that they were unworthy. I simply pointed out the duality of the two deployments, and further went on to state that the disparity between the two was the reason for the difference in financial compensation.

I spent three months in Mirage, not getting tax free pay and although I wished I was making more money, I realized why I was not being payed the same, both in allowances and tax break, as Afghanistan. 

Now, as I stated in my original post, these are my opinions. I am not saying that those in Mirage aren't serving. I am not saying that they are not providing a valuable service, and I am definitely not saying they are un-worthy or in anyway less than soldiers serving in Afghanistan. I have the TSE certificate to prove that I have no bias. I am simply saying that IN MY OPINION the differences in dangers and hardships between the deployments merit that differences in pay. 

Librarian, you went on to personally attack me in two posts, that is your prerogative. I agree with Roy and will not continue this online argument, as it is pointless. You have heard my opinion and I have heard your response. If you disagree with it, great, dissenting opinion and the ability to voice it is one of the things that makes this country great. Please counter my points with your own in a rational, professional manner. If, on the other hand, you would like to continue this petty argument further, please feel free to pm me.


----------



## armyvern

So here's the facts:

Prior to the CF obtaining Tax-free status based upon the risk of the mission they were deployed in, here's how it worked for every single other Canadian Citizen who was outside of the country for 183 days or more.

Canadian Taxs are based on Residency not on Citizenship.

Live in Bermuda 184 days that year? No taxes for them required.

Finally, this exact same "tax-break" was given to the CF, the same one every other Canadian Citizen had been enjoying, and entitled to for years if they were outside Canada 183 days or more.

When we finally do get this "tax-break" it is applicable only to certain mission areas, based upon risk, as pointed out.

As I pointed out in my original post to you; WHY is this? Every other Canadian citizen outside the country for 183 days or more enjoys this tax-break, not just the guys in Afghanistan. So why then, are the troops in CM being precluded from it? Because we are members of the CF and employed by the federal government that's why. The TB/Revenue Canada has ruled that, for us in the CF anyway, only certain risk levels will be tax-free.

Yet my neighbour across the street can take off to his villa in the Riviera for 6.5 months a year and enjoy the very same benefit the troops in Afghanistan are getting. So techniclly, it's got to do with "Risk-Level"...but obviously only if you are in the Canadian Forces. Last I heard, they sometimes even had bathrooms right off their master bedrooms on the Riviera, and I guarantee you they've got much better food than Camp Mirage.


----------



## PhilB

Fair enough, I know very little about the Canadian tax system. I was under the impressions that if you are abroad you are exempt from tax for all of the time you are out of the country after 6months. i.e. taxed for the first 6months. Additionally I believe, but could definitely be wrong, that there are restrictions on bringing the money earned abroad back into Canada. 

If what is stated above is correct then the tax break we receive is above and beyond what an average civvy receives. If it is not correct, which is quite likely, then I agree. It is not fair to exempt those pers who are deployed to CM for 6months or more from the tax break if you civvy receives it. Then the question comes in, what about those AF pers that only deploy for roughly 3months i.e. Pilots, TAU ground pers etc.?

I apologize for the harsh words ealier, this is the dialogue that I hoped for. One question, where do you live that you have neighbors going to the french Riviera and can I come! ;D


----------



## armyvern

> Your residency status affects how you complete income tax returns and what types of income you have to report. There are three residency classifications for tax purposes:
> 
> Non-resident: any person who spends less than 183 days in one calendar year in Canada. A non-resident reports only Canadian income and does not qualify for the GST credit.
> 
> Deemed Resident: any person who spends more than 183 days in a calendar year in Canada and does not work in Canada. Deemed residents, whether they are citizens or not, must take into account their "world income," which they receive from all sources inside and outside Canada. Taxes paid to a foreign government can usually be deducted from federal tax payable. Deemed residents qualify for the GST credit.
> 
> Resident: any person who spends more than 183 calendar days in year in Canada and also works in Canada. Residents file their resident income tax return form. Residents qualify for the GST credit.


----------



## Krosis

PhilB said:
			
		

> Fair enough, I know very little about the Canadian tax system. I was under the impressions that if you are abroad you are exempt from tax for all of the time you are out of the country after 6months. i.e. taxed for the first 6months. Additionally I believe, but could definitely be wrong, that there are restrictions on bringing the money earned abroad back into Canada.
> 
> If what is stated above is correct then the tax break we receive is above and beyond what an average civilian receives. If it is not correct, which is quite likely, then I agree. It is not fair to exempt those pers who are deployed to CM for 6months or more from the tax break if you civvy receives it. Then the question comes in, what about those AF pers that only deploy for roughly 3months i.e. Pilots, TAU ground pers etc.?
> 
> I apologize for the harsh words ealier, this is the dialogue that I hoped for. One question, where do you live that you have neighbors going to the french Riviera and can I come! ;D



     To my knowledge the civilian employee's at Tim Hortens will receive the Tax break as long as they are in theater for more then 183 days. The fact that they have tied the Tax break system for serving members to Risk level is where they went wrong. The people up north in KAF / PRT ect already receive more compensation for Risk / Hardship then we do in Mirage.... in fact its about double what we get in mirage if you compared them to each other and this does not include the tax break which adds another $1000 + /month and probably another $3000-$5000 at tax time.


----------



## aesop081

Granted i sound like i am complaining sometimes but, at the heart of the matter, i didnt join or want to serve overseas again for money.......


----------



## vonGarvin

Ummmmm....trying to get back on track here: any word of a medal for Op HALO (for either MINUSTAH or MIF?)


----------



## George Wallace

The Librarian said:
			
		

> The hardship and risk allowances are already higher for the guys in Afghanistan because they obviously have a much higher risk and hardship. What the Heck is the problem with giving those Canadian military pers posted in Camp Mirage the exact same tax-free status that yourself in Afghanistan, or any other Canadian citizen who is outside the country for 6 months enjoys? You are bitching at the wrong tree. You've got Canadians living a really good life on the Riviera's of France etc for 7 months saving those taxs too, yet your going to slam your fellow soldiers for doing their jobs in the place where their government sent them to? Unbelieveable.



I think you are a little off base on those facts.  I am sure that those currently serving in places like 'France' would be paying the same Taxes that we paid when we were in Germany - Ontario Taxes.   Your Belleville Postal Address being the determining factor.  

As for medals, there are criteria set out at the beginning of Ops that will determine what, if there is to be, medal will be awarded.  Perhaps a 'generic' "Support Medal" should be created for things like that.......wait......the SSM has bars for things like ALERT, NATO, .............


----------



## vonGarvin

George Wallace said:
			
		

> As for medals, there are criteria set out at the beginning of Ops that will determine what, if there is to be, medal will be awarded.  Perhaps a 'generic' "Support Medal" should be created for things like that.......wait......the SSM has bars for things like ALERT, NATO, .............


At the beginning of our Op, the last thing on our minds were medals.  Someone, somewhere, may have been thinking that, but with the inception of the General Campaign Star, Special Service Medal (with clasps), etc, why not one of them?  My neighbour got the SSM for service in the Federal Republic of Germany.  What's wrong with the SSM with a "Haiti" clasp?  

Just talking out loud....


----------



## armyvern

Well, it's been a couple of weeks and there's other threads running on tour recognition.

It's now been 4 years, that's right, 4 long years since those first members deployed into Haiti as part of Op Halo. Not the UN guys under blue mind you who already have a medal for this, but the guys who went in there FIRST ... to make things safe enough for those wearing the blue beret to enter the country.

Chapter VII. 4 Years ago. Where exactly IS their recognition for this? O Gps for months & months now have stated "it's designed -- it's in the GGs office awaiting final consent". Really? Still? If ever?? It's been 4 years!! We came up with the SWASM pretty damn quickly; as did we the General Campaign Star and the General Campaign Medal. 

What, exactly, seems to be the hold up for our Chapter VII Op Halo veteran's and them receiving their proper recognition?

Sadly, IF it ever does get here -- it'll be too late for 7 of those Op Halo veterans (and, I could be wrong here ... the figures could actually be HIGHER). Six of those veteran's families will now receive any eventual recognition their departed Op Halo vet should have received years ago, posthumously as their loved one has been killed since in Afghanistan. The others' family will receive his recognition, if it ever gets here, posthumously as well since that member is also now deceased.

Some of those Op Halo vets are also still dealing with their nightmares. Can someone out there please remember that these guys exist too??!! Really, is that too much to ask?


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## vonGarvin

Vern:
In order to avoid a nasty spanking (as I look outside and see FRESH SNOW on the ground here in Pet), I will avoid saying "+1", and simply say:
I doubt that what you said could have been said better by anyone else.

WHAT'S THE FRIGGIN' HOLD UP?


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## dapaterson

Op HALO isn't the only forgotten group - OP SCULPTURE first deployed in '99 or so, and to my knowledge there has been no CF recognition yet - a few of the earliest rotos got a Brit medal that took years to get approval to wear, but to my knowledge, sweet bupkis from Canada.


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## vonGarvin

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Op HALO isn't the only forgotten group - OP SCULPTURE first deployed in '99 or so, and to my knowledge there has been no CF recognition yet - a few of the earliest rotos got a Brit medal that took years to get approval to wear, but to my knowledge, *sweet bupkis * from Canada.


Wait a minute: you got SWEET bupkis?  All we got were sour grapes ;D

That's it, I'm forming the Multinational Interim Force - Haiti Veterans' Association and lobbying Parliament!  I'm also going to lobby for free beer on Fridays, but that's another matter ;D


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## armyvern

Mortarman Rockpainter said:
			
		

> Wait a minute: you got SWEET bupkis?  All we got were sour grapes ;D
> 
> That's it, I'm forming the Multinational Interim Force - Haiti Veterans' Association and lobbying Parliament!  I'm also going to lobby for free beer on Fridays, but that's another matter ;D



Next time you're around --- I owe you one.


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## dapaterson

Perhaps I should be clearer:  I didn't receive Sweet Bupkis, because I didn't deploy on OP SCULPTURE; I do have a significant number of friends who did deploy.  Of course, as a small mission it garnered little attention, nor did we really make an effort to capture lessons learned.  Because, really, what could we learn fro ma mission where we embedded some senior folks with the SL military leadership to mentor them, and inserted Combat Arms SMEs into SL units to mentor and develop them.  It's not like we're doing that anywhere else...


----------



## vonGarvin

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Perhaps I should be clearer:  I didn't receive Sweet Bupkis, because I didn't deploy on OP SCULPTURE; I do have a significant number of friends who did deploy.  Of course, as a small mission it garnered little attention, nor did we really make an effort to capture lessons learned.  Because, really, what could we learn fro ma mission where we embedded some senior folks with the SL military leadership to mentor them, and inserted Combat Arms SMEs into SL units to mentor and develop them.  It's not like we're doing that anywhere else...


:rofl:

If it weren't true, it would truly be funny.


----------



## armyvern

Mortarman Rockpainter said:
			
		

> :rofl:
> 
> If it weren't true, it would truly be funny.



Yep, it's actually kind of embarassing eh? Really very sad how we are forgetting our own.


----------



## Haggis

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Op HALO isn't the only forgotten group - OP SCULPTURE first deployed in '99 or so, and to my knowledge there has been no CF recognition yet - a few of the earliest rotos got a Brit medal that took years to get approval to wear, but to my knowledge, sweet bupkis from Canada.



I know a Canadian soldier (now deceased) who was a recipient of the Brit medal.  He told me it was awarded to all in theatre who were (unintended) participants in offesnive operations conducted by the SL military.  As SME/trainers, they deployed with their supported SL units in much the same manner as our OMLTs do today.


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## George Wallace

Now, should we be looking for medals for each and every OP that we go on?  Should we be asking for medals for OP Nanook and OP Narwhal?  I won't ask about OP Boxtop, as that is probably covered by the SSM (ALERT) bar  :-\


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## RTaylor

I want one for Operation Persistence (Swissair Flight 111 cleanup)

-jk- (would be cool though)

I have to agree with Vern, long overdue and IMO it's beauracracy getting in the way of Military matters once again. 

A mighty shame as recognition is long overdue. Here's mine :


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## Haggis

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Now, should we be looking for medals for each and every OP that we go on?  Should we be asking for medals for OP Nanook and OP Narwhal?  I won't ask about OP Boxtop, as that is probably covered by the SSM (ALERT) bar  :-\



In that case, I want mine for Op FEATHER and Op SALON.  After all, the Warrior Society claimed I was in another country...


----------



## armyvern

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Now, should we be looking for medals for each and every OP that we go on?  Should we be asking for medals for OP Nanook and OP Narwhal?  I won't ask about OP Boxtop, as that is probably covered by the SSM (ALERT) bar  :-\



HUGE difference George.

The above ops that you've listed are Dom Ops (and no Op Boxtop does not receive the SSM [Alert Bar]); and after all defending Canadian Sovereignty is our primary raison d'etre "to defend Canada and her sovereignty" ... that's doing our jobs.

International operations (not of the war to defend our sovereignty type) are not our raison d'etre and therefore they are treated differently than Dom Ops. This is normal and is the way it has always been ... save for Op Sculpture and Op Halo apparently. So again ... why are pers from these two international operations STILL waiting ???

Op Halo -- Chapter VII Peacemaking and
Op Sculpture -- SL initiated Offensive actions

Do NOT equal = Vern sitting all snug in Thule AFB issuing out plane parts and going to the Top of the World bar each evening as part of Op Boxtop.

Edited to add:

And, FOR THE RECORD: I was part of neither Op Sculpture nor Op Halo; this thread has ZERO to do with me attempting to gain myself some more bling (I've got no room on my chest for more anyhow) ... it's got to do with getting Canadian Soldiers the recognition they deserve for those international operations they have particpated in ... just as all other Canadian soldiers who participated on international Ops have been recognized.


----------



## captjtq

My understanding is that the plan is to go the way of the Brits... instead of a new bar for the GCS with every separate go overseas, we'll be wearing a new GCS on our chests, with a different coloured ribbon. The Brits call it their Operational Service Medal - they have three at the point: Afghansitan, Sierra Leone, and Congo. Same medal, different coloured ribbon. Apparently it'll cut down on time in that the only thing that'll need to be approved is a new coloured ribbon. Presumably, all of these overseas missions (Halo/Sculpture/etc) that have not yet been recognized will be recognized with a GCS and separate ribbon. Complete RUMINT at this point, but my source was my supplier for medals and medal mounting equipment, who are as I understand it fairly chummy with the DHH folks. The lady I spoke with today said something about 6-10 new medals coming out this calendar year, including the much debated 'Wound Medal'. Hopefully I'm not adding fuel to an already heated issue, but I do know that the issue of appropriate recognition continues to be discussed at the highest levels - just wish they'd get their act together sooner.

Rgds,

Jason

(edit: spelling)


----------



## medicineman

vonG,

Didn't it take us 2 or 3 years to get our Stars for Afghanistan - like after everyone who was there after us got their's?  Personally, though a little annoyed, I'm not overly surprised.  Hey, I'll just be happy to get my crown on my grad parade instead of in the mail like the rest of my class - if my Haiti gong were to show up, I think I'd be laughing too hard at that point to actually march up and get the thing.  Forget the both at once...

BTW Vern, thanks for ressurrecting this for us Haiti vets (yes vonG, even us NSE wogs) and my buddies that were in SL, and those who won't get to wear their's when/should they eventually arrive.

MM


----------



## armyvern

medicineman said:
			
		

> vonG,
> 
> Didn't it take us 2 or 3 years to get our Stars for Afghanistan - like after everyone who was there after us got thier's?



LOL. You're bringing up a sore point for quite a few troops. Some of us were there months when you guys arrived and VonG sauntered through the QM (I think I harassed him BTW) ... and left months after you left. This after seeing our tours extended (some up to 10 months), HLTAs canned if they hadn't already been taken and our mission switched from Apollo to Athena ... and we only ever got the one. Kind of wierd seeing people who arrived after us and left before us ending up with both the SWASM and the GCS/GSM. Some things --- will never make sense to me.

Onto important matters though --- Op Halo had reason to be brought up again today to the CoC. People are beginning to ask questions -- in writing ... and asking for written responses -- the old passed in O Gp point of "it's awaiting approval" isn't washing anymore, they've been hearing it for months now. 

You know, some kind of official update by the CoC (as per DHH status) would be nice seeing as how it's been 4 long years and 7 deaths. I think they deserve at least that much. Even if it's a "No, it's not apporved - will never be approved", whatever -- just TELL them already. Personnel seem to be fine when they are provided information. I son't know what the holdup is for this medal, or for info related to updates on it ... but I do know -- it is not good for morale for those pers who feel they've been overlooked by all this. Four years -- someone MUST know something; I think the troops deserve to know it too.


----------



## dapaterson

Vern: We have many senior folks in uniform, working in HR, who think it is their duty to never communicate anything until the official announcement comes out. Even to others in the CF.  Even if those others need the information to do their jobs (or prepare for their jobs).  I was in a meeting a week or so ago where I was given dagger eyes by a BGen - how dare a lowly representative of one of the Environments be present while decisions were being made or options discussed.

So the close hold of information is understandable - as a product of the dysfunctional culture of DND/CF HR management - it's their modus operandi.


----------



## vonGarvin

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Sadly, IF it ever does get here -- it'll be too late for 7 of those Op Halo veterans (and, I could be wrong here ... the figures could actually be HIGHER).


Sadly, there is one more Op HALO veteran who will receive his medal posthumously.  I've just learned that Reverend Major Jean-Yves Fortin passed away last weekend (Saturday).
http://www.legacy.com/can-ottawa/Obituaries.asp?Page=Lifestory&PersonId=109123846

His story is up there. RIP, Father.


----------



## Michael OLeary

See some comments on Op SCUPLTURE and Op HALO from a couple of Royal Canadians who were there.  (LINK)


----------



## Greymatters

Did Op Central ever get one?  (Honduras, 1999)  Or was that grouped under the SSM?


----------



## Blackadder1916

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Did Op Central ever get one?  (Honduras, 1999)  Or was that grouped under the SSM?



Though there seems to be a little confusion about the operation's name, it appears that this was recognized by the SSM with Humanitas bar.

Disaster Assistance Response Team (DART) Operation CENTRAL - Honduras


> In the wake of Hurricane Mitch, the DART found itself in the middle of the Rio Aguan Valley, a heavily hit area of north central Honduras.
> 
> After an initial reconnaissance visit on November 5, 1998, the DART began its deployment, establishing the main headquarters in La Ceiba, a city of about 60,000 on the northern coast of Honduras. From here, troops and equipment were shuttled 75 kilometres inland to the DART's operational base, located near the village of Sonaguera, population 10,000.
> . . .
> At mission's end, in mid-December 1998, the DART had. . .



http://www.forces.gc.ca/dhh/honours_awards/chart/downloads/ssm_humanitas.pdf


> THE HUMANITARIAN SERVICE BAR TO THE SPECIAL SERVICE MEDAL
> 
> 21. Central America (6 November to 23 December 1998) [Op CHARITABLE]. Provision of emergency medical, engineering, transport and supply services in the wake of Hurricane Mitch.


----------



## armyvern

Bump.

*So, what's up with the medal for Op Halo??*

You know, the medal for our soldiers (or their surviving families) who _still_ haven't received any recognition for that tour (at least 5 of whom are now deceased)??

Is it STILL in the Governor General's inbox awaiting approval as was disseminated TWO years ago via the O Groups??

Someone?? Anyone?? Beuller??

We seem to have had time since 2004 to come out with a medal for something that was already recognized with a Dress Distinction ...

When is someone going to finally find the time to look after those who actually are "unrecognized" ??


----------



## dapaterson

If it's not Afghanistan, it's not on the agenda.  Simple as that.  The Big Cod made his desires clear - so if there's a finite staff capacity to execute things, we'll get what he wants first.  So a Sacrifice Medal.  Soon to be followed by the Combat Action Badges (another cesspool of conflict arising from that one).  Then, someday, perhaps, OP HALO and OP SCULPTURE may get some recognition - though if DART does deploy to Haiti now, I'd expect them to receive a decoration before OP HALO.

Who, me, cynical?


----------



## vonGarvin

Inexcusable.  Yes, I have a vested interest (I was there with I Coy, 2 RCR).  I cannot believe that in this day and age of a CORPS HQ, which breathes down the neck of a DIV HQ (RC South) AND down the neck of a BDE HQ (TFK) AND down the neck of a BG HQ to find out stuff that shouldn't concern them, that NDHQ cannot find TWO reasonably motivated staff officers to (a) design a medal and (b) draft paperwork to fire it up the chain of approval.  Disgusting.  Makes me feel that this beloved army of mine really IS bush-league.
 :rage:


----------



## medicineman

Could this just be that since the 3 or 4 senior officers that are there are getting their MINUSTAH gongs, and other than the rifle coy turnover, it was a one tour wonder, so nobody really cares?  Kinda reminds me of being in Croatia in that, despite the number of casualties we took, nobody really seemed to realize we were there, since the "action" was all happening in Bosnia...perhaps there wasn't enough "action" or publicity/public knowledge at any level to warrant even a bar to the SSM.  Or maybe there was enough public snivellling from some of Jack Layton's constituents to make it un-PC to award something.  I'm pretty sure it's not that Machiavellian (though you never know), it could simply be plain old senility on someone's part in NDHQ  :.

In case you're wondering, I'm not (overly) bitter.

MM


----------



## medicineman

Got bored at work today and lo and behold, realized that us Halo vets STILL have yet to receive even an inkling of information vis a vis our (alleged) medal.  The DH&R site doesn't have any updates on it - anyone heard anything new?  Pity there isn't a smiley of gasoline and a fire...


MM


----------



## Danjanou

Closest I could find for you


----------



## medicineman

LOL.

MM


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## vonGarvin

In a word: pathetic.  The Somalia medal, which was WAAAAAAAAY overdue when finally awarded, didn't take this long!


----------



## armyvern

medicineman said:
			
		

> Got bored at work today and lo and behold, realized that us Halo vets STILL have yet to receive even an inkling of information vis a vis our (alleged) medal.  The DH&R site doesn't have any updates on it - anyone heard anything new?  Pity there isn't a smiley of gasoline and a fire...
> MM



Eerily, I was just thinking about Op Halo too this morning (actually got a filing cabinet [empty!!] thrown into the dumpster with "Op Halo" label on one of the drawers). It's 5 years ago this month since you  guys deployed ... and still SFA.

That's pretty sad; it's almost as if they tossed the whole history of that mission ever occuring into the dumpster too.


----------



## medicineman

You both seem surprised - it's one of those missions that didn't seem to exist once we got there.  Not the big ticket stuff like elsewhere I guess - but that's ok, I'm used to being forgotten about  :.

MM


----------



## medicineman

Someone was reading my mind - got to work today to find an e-mail from my RSM about a CMP Townhall - one of the items "a Lebanon/haiti medal has been approved".  Well, my oblig service is done in a year and 3 months - figure the odds?

MM


----------



## armyvern

Probably for the DART missions there vice Op Halo.  Two different beasts at two different times.

Or did it actually say "Op Halo"??


----------



## medicineman

It just said "Haiti".

MM


----------



## Old Sweat

Thinking out loud and maybe not too clearly, the only thing I can think of that the most recent Haiti misssion and the Lebanon one have in common is that they both included a NEO.


----------



## dapaterson

My friend Jack deployed to Freetown on Roto 0 of OP SCULPTURE in February 2001.  (And John on Roto 1 in August '01, and so on since then)

To date, the UK has given him a decoration for that service.  Canada, nothing.

To be fair, when he was MND Mr Pratt presided over a parade where the UK decoration was officially presented (after permission had been granted to wear the foreign decoration).  

In the grand cosmic scheme of things it may not seem like much - a strip of fabric and a metal trinket.  But to those who served it's a constant reminder of their efforts, of friends and foes and times gone by.  It's really not too much to ask, is it?


----------



## charlesm

Dataperson,

  OP SCLUPTURE is on ROTO 16 I think now and still no word. I was on ROTO 14 when the rumour mill went wild saying that a medal had been approved, and it was 18 months away!!  :nod:

Some things just don't change.


----------



## geo

Charles... some things take an eternity.
At one point, sometime in the future, troops who have gone on operations and tangled with the ennemy will get a "combat action badge"...   The merits of which have been discussed in another thread on Army.ca

Also - remember how long it took to recognise the PPCLI for it's action in the Medak Pocket?


----------



## Patrolman

A couple of years ago I used to joke that I would get my CD before I received a medal for Haiti. Guess what, I will receive my CD on Monday. Last summer I asked the CLS directly about the medal, he quickly referred me to the ARMY CWO, who said it was in the works.......you know how the rest goes. Late last year I spoke with the TF Haiti RSM if he had heard anything. He said to the best of his knowledge the whole process is held up at the Senate level and the Directorate of Heritage. Essentially don't expect it anytime soon. I can retire in 7 and one half years so maybe I will be a civi when I get mine.


----------



## geo

As a civy, you could ask the GG about it - I guess...


----------



## Patrolman

That is very true. I would like to ask her now, you would think it would be a interest to her since she is from Haiti, and recently travelled there to personally see the work of Canadians and the UN operating within the country.


----------



## Journeyman

Patrolman said:
			
		

> .....since she is from Haiti.


Maybe that's the problem. You don't get a medal for serving elsewhere in Canada, like floods in Manitoba or that nasty bit of snow in Toronto -- maybe she figures Op HALO was just another domestic op....CF troops serving in "her country."


----------



## Quartermaster

I recently decided to see if anyone posted any OP HALO pictures on Facebook and found a group called OP HALO Recognition.  There was recent info (albeit second-hand) from a CMP staff officer regarding the medal.  No timeline of course, but info all the same.

I also put a bug in the ear of someone who has direct face-time with the CMP and am waiting to find out if there were any positive results from that conversation.  MTF.


----------



## armyvern

Quartermaster said:
			
		

> I recently decided to see if anyone posted any OP HALO pictures on Facebook and found a group called OP HALO Recognition.  There was recent info (albeit second-hand) from a CMP staff officer regarding the medal.  No timeline of course, but info all the same.



And for you _Crackbookers_ on here ... a link to the group mentionned above.

Op Halo Recognition


----------



## armyvern

medicineman said:
			
		

> It just said "Haiti".
> 
> MM



You know, I now have a niggling suspicion that the update that you had saying

"Lebanon/Haiti" 

... means that the troops involved in the very nasty work that was UN Chapter VII from Op Halo will (finally) be receiving a medal which will be identical to a medal that will be awarded to those involved in 2006's Evacuation of (debatedly stupid) Canadian (also debateable) 'citizens' from Lebanon via Cyprus.

Hoping my suspicions are wrong.


----------



## medicineman

Me too - if they were that hard up to do a medal, they could have just struck a bar for the GCS or the SSM and I think most of us (well at least me  ) would be happy - it's the acknowledgement that something happened and we went there to settle it.  You think they're trying to come up with a NEO medal?

MM


----------



## Quartermaster

I know that the SSM with bar was the original thought, but it was pushed forward by the Task Force COS among others that HALO met the criteria to have its own medal stricken.

That sent the whole process back to square one, but I believe it was the right way to do it.  Over the last two years I stopped being annoyed about it and started thinking that it will eventually be a pleasant surprise.


----------



## medicineman

Well Vern,

I was perusing CANFORGENS, looked at the end of 2009 and lo and behold, Op Lion (Lebanon evac) is getting SSM with Humanitas Bar - see Order 215/09.  I seem to remember that op was like, 06 or 07, so sometime after the we returned from the sewer, and they're getting a little something something...I'm beginning to think that someone has accidentally on purpose forgotted about Op Halo  :.

MM


----------



## armyvern

Can _someone_ out there answer:   Anyone?? Beuller?? 

WHY is Op Halo being ignored by the powers that be?? Perhaps "the powers that be aren't _actually_" ignoring, but it certainly seems as such when those "powers that be" haven't provided so much as a nibbling soundbite of an update to the issue in 4 years!!

Someone out there, even if just visiting here as a "guest" (no doubt checking out what the mood of the tropps is these days), can explain what's going on --- it's been since 2004 already.

If you won't make an account to explain here, can you at least cut a message or _something_? Don't the members who served there deserve some sort of explanation for the "years too long delay" with recognizing their service on this mission? 

We're up to at least 5 posthumous awards of whatever/whenever/IF ever ... and if they're NOT going to ever be recognized for their service there ... can someone finally pony up to podium and tell them so and advise them as to WHY they aren't worthy? It's the least someone should do.

They've waited long enough IMO - especially evidenced by the fact that years-later Ops are now officially being recognized. 

Come on already --- you can do it!!


----------



## dapaterson

"Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence."

And don't forget the folks on OP SCULPTURE still without Canadian recognition - despite being there since early 2001...


----------



## armyvern

dapaterson said:
			
		

> "Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence."
> 
> And don't forget the folks on OP SCULPTURE still without Canadian recognition - despite being there since early 2001...



Consider my earlier post edited to switch ALL to OP Halo/Op Sculpture ...

And 2004/2001.

Funny how they could come up with the GCS & GCM so darn quick ... yet seem to forget OTHER operations and missions continue to exist. Talk about falling through the cracks.


----------



## medicineman

dapaterson said:
			
		

> "Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence."
> 
> And don't forget the folks on OP SCULPTURE still without Canadian recognition - despite being there since early 2001...



It's been long enough that incompetence can be safely ruled out me thinks.

I do feel for buddies of mine that were on Sculpture as well, but since I was on Halo, well, I'll continue to be annoyed about that in particular.

MM


----------



## Edward Campbell

If you like I will E-mail the MND and ask him to tell me "why."

But I need some details so that I don't look totally out of the loop:

Op Halo was in _________ from ____ to ____

Op Sculpture was in _________ from ____ to ____ 


----------
Dear Minister;

I am a retired army officer with no direct, personal interest in this matter, but I note that while many Canadian military personnel are being recognized, with appropriate medals, for their service overseas it appears that those who served on Op Halo in _____ from ____ to ____ and on Op Sculpture in _________ from ____ to ____ have fallen through the cracks in NDHQ.

Would you be so kind as to have someone tell me when those members might be recognized, please?

I will post whatever information is provided on the relevant Army.ca web site page at http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/40967.0 where serving and retired military personnel have been asking about this for nearly four year now.

Or, perhaps, someone who knows could go that web site, directly, and tell people, directly, what is happening.

Yours truly

etc
----------


----------



## dapaterson

HALO - Haiti in 2004 (2 RCR)
SCULPTURE - Sierra Leone from 2000 to the present


See also:

http://communities.canada.com/ottawacitizen/blogs/defencewatch/archive/2009/07/14/a-lack-of-recognition-for-op-halo-and-op-sculpture.aspx

http://communities.canada.com/ottawacitizen/blogs/defencewatch/archive/2009/08/28/no-peacekeeping-medal-for-op-sculpture-op-halo-personnel-still-have-to-wait.aspx

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/Commun/ml-fe/article-eng.asp?id=3132


----------



## Edward Campbell

Sent:

2010-01-08

Dear Minister;

I am a retired army officer with no direct, personal interest in this matter, but I note that while many Canadian military personnel are being recognized, with appropriate medals, for their recent service overseas, it appears that those who served on Op Halo in Haiti in 2004 and on Op Sculpture in Sierra Leone from 2000 to the present have fallen through the cracks in NDHQ.

Would you be so kind as to have someone tell me when those members might be recognized, please?

I will post whatever information is provided on the relevant Army.ca web site page < http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/40967.0 > where serving and retired military personnel have been asking about this for nearly four years now.

Or, perhaps, someone who knows could go that web site and tell people, directly - from the horses mouth, so to speak, what is happening.


With my thanks in advance


Yours truly

_etc_


----------



## TC Barrett

I was on the 2nd flight into Haiti and the 2nd last flight out on Op Halo, a mission to restore law and order (Multi Interim Force - MIF) which turned into a UN Peacekeeping mission about 3/4 of the way through.

Tour Name - Op Halo
Tour Location - Haiti, Port au Prince and Gonaives
My dates for the tour - 17 Mar 2004 to 11 Aug 2004.

Dates with MIF - 17 Mar to Late Jun 2004.  
Dates with UN - Late Jun to 15 Aug 2004 (last flight).

To date, the only medal issued out was the CPSM (Canadian Peacekeeping Service Medal) to new soldiers.  Kind of stupid considering most of us only served either just over or just under 30 days under the UN.  I guess it was a freebie.


----------



## AmmoTech90

TC Barrett,

Were you on the advance party from Kingston or were you on the second flight out of Gagetown?  If it was on Gagetown, I was on that one as well, we took off around an hour after the defense platoon.  If I recall there was an EGS tech, a EG tech, the PAFFO and myself on that flight and cargo.


----------



## armyvern

Move to quote dapaterson in here:



			
				dapaterson said:
			
		

> CANFORGEN 066/10 has been released with further details.
> 
> Of interest:





> THE CF AND THE GOVT OF CANADA ARE COMMITTED TO HONOURING AND RECOGNIZING THE VALUED CONTRIBUTION OF SAILORS, SOLDIERS, AIR MEN AND WOMEN OF THE CF. MORE IMPROVEMENTS TO OVERSEAS RECOGNITION ARE UNDER CONSIDERATION AND* ANNOUNCEMENTS REGARDING RECOGNITION OF OPS SCULPTURE, HALO, AUGURAL, PROTEUS AND HESTIA WILL BE FORTHCOMING *


----------



## vonGarvin

I think I heard a massive crack from under my feet.  Did Hell just freeze over?


----------



## Journeyman

> *ANNOUNCEMENTS....WILL BE FORTHCOMING *


The announcement _could_ just be, "nahhh....we're not going to bother"    >

 ;D


----------



## vonGarvin

:clubinhand:


Oh, there'd be a clubbin', I tells ya!  *A clubbin'*!


----------



## medicineman

I'm notholding my breath, and not because I didn't want to embolize in the chamber this morning...

MM


----------



## armyvern

medicineman said:
			
		

> I'm notholding my breath, and not because I didn't want to embolize in the chamber this morning...
> 
> MM



Wahhhh. Had to work did 'ya?? It's a lovely March Break here in Ontario. Pet is nice and sunny, but not as nice as yesterday.  ;D


----------



## medicineman

Yeah, got to work, got a day's dive pay, and we're getting slid this afternoon...mind you I have to teach and wait for the QL5 course to get out of the water, but hey, such is life.  It's also very nice here today in my office by the sea  ;D.

MM


----------



## SeanNewman

General Hillier writes at length in A Soldier First about his frustration while CDS with the entire recognition process.

Granted the US may (in our opinions) over-award some things, but one thing that they get right is recognizing in a timely manner.

There are some medals that unquestionably should be left at higher levels to debate over merit in terms standardization, but there is no reason that lower level bravery and valour decorations can't be trusted down to the Coy level.

The odd guy who got one that may have only 75% earned it is a small price to pay for the amount of soldiers you could recognize quickly.  Imagine how much more it would mean for a soldier to roll back into the FOB after a rough op and getting our equivalent of a Bronze Star (either for valour or bravery) slammed on his chest instead of waiting five years for him to get it, after he's been posted to a different unit and gets called out on a Monday parade with nobody who was there.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Petamocto said:
			
		

> There are some medals that unquestionably should be left at higher levels to debate over merit in terms standardization, but there is no reason that lower level bravery and valour decorations can't be trusted down to the Coy level.



To clarify, are you suggesting that we should permit subunit commanders to hand out immediate awards of the Medal of Military Valour?

I'm certain there's no way that could go awry.

Or were you thinking of something else?


----------



## Edward Campbell

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Sent:
> 
> 2010-01-08
> 
> Dear Minister;
> 
> I am a retired army officer with no direct, personal interest in this matter, but I note that while many Canadian military personnel are being recognized, with appropriate medals, for their recent service overseas, it appears that those who served on Op Halo in Haiti in 2004 and on Op Sculpture in Sierra Leone from 2000 to the present have fallen through the cracks in NDHQ.
> 
> Would you be so kind as to have someone tell me when those members might be recognized, please?
> 
> I will post whatever information is provided on the relevant Army.ca web site page < http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/40967.0 > where serving and retired military personnel have been asking about this for nearly four years now.
> 
> Or, perhaps, someone who knows could go that web site and tell people, directly - from the horses mouth, so to speak, what is happening.
> 
> 
> With my thanks in advance
> 
> 
> Yours truly
> 
> _etc_




Not really news, _per se_, but two and a half months after I sent the E-mail, I got this response:



> Dear Mr. Campbell:
> 
> Thank you for your e-mail concerning recognition for Canadian Forces personnel serving in Operations Halo and Sculpture.
> 
> The service performed by Canadian Forces members during Operation Halo in Haiti and Operation Sculpture in Sierra Leone continues to be appreciated. In fact, overseas service recognition is currently under consideration by the Government of Canada's Honours Policy Committee. As honours policy proposals and deliberations are considered honours in confidence, we are not at liberty to release any details at this time.
> 
> The Canadian Forces personnel serving on Operations Halo and Sculpture have not been forgotten. The process for the creation or modification of honours is always lengthy and involves all levels of government, including the Prime Minister, the Governor General, and the Queen. Much
> progress has been made in recent months, and when a decision is reached the details will be communicated through a public announcement. For now,
> service with Operation Halo is creditable toward the Canadian Peacekeeping Service Medal.
> 
> I trust this information is of assistance, and thank you again for writing. I would also like to take this opportunity to thank you for
> your service in defence of Canada.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> 
> Peter MacKay
> Minister of National Defence
> 
> MCU2010-00981




So, TechnoViking, Vern, _et al_ keep on holding your breath, while standing on one foot or whatever the current dill pam requires.


----------



## Frank6677

GreaT NEWS it's at our door step they will finally make a move. here is a link to the late info I got from a CANFORGEN.
http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhr-ddhr/pub/doc/mn-nm-03262010.pdf
Have a look at those new medals and ribbon. and i'll be postingt some more news as soon as i get them.

Cheers


----------



## PMedMoe

Yes, it's been (being?) discussed here:  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/90559.0.html

and here:  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/40967.0.html


----------



## dapaterson

September 8, 2010  
New Operational Service Medal Announced  
OTTAWA, ONTARIO--(Marketwire - Sept. 8, 2010) - The Honourable Peter MacKay, Minister of National Defence, is pleased to convey that Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II has approved the creation of the Operational Service Medal (OSM). The OSM will provide long-awaited recognition for certain military operations for which there were no medals available.

"Be it in Haiti, Africa or any of the operations our men and women in uniform are active in, Canada contributes to international stability and security by assisting those in need," said Minister MacKay. "As Canadian Forces members are sent abroad in the service of Canada, our new overseas recognition framework ensures that they receive the recognition that they deserve."

The OSM will be awarded to those who, on or after 7 October, 2001, served in a theatre of operations, but not in the presence of an armed enemy. Also eligible are those who worked in direct support of approved operations or served under dangerous circumstances outside Canada, provided the service has not been recognized through another service medal aside from the Canadian Peacekeeping Service Medal where appropriate. 

The OSM will be issued with different ribbons identifying specific theatres of operations, including South-West Asia, Sierra Leone (Op SCULPTURE), Haiti (Op HALO), and Sudan (Op AUGURAL). In addition, a Humanitas ribbon was created to recognize humanitarian service, which will include Canada's most recent relief efforts in Haiti (Op HESTIA) and an Expedition ribbon was created to cover smaller operations conducted in dangerous circumstances outside of Canada. 

An inaugural presentation ceremony, presided over by the Governor General, will take place at a later date. 

Notes to editor / news director: For more information on the OSM and on the creation of new honours, please visit the Rideau Hall website: http://www.gg.ca/

A fact sheet with pictures of the OSM is available at the following site: http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/news-nouvelles/news-nouvelles-eng.asp?cat=00 

For more information on military honours, please visit the Department of National Defence Web site for CF Honours and Awards: http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhr-ddhr/index-eng.asp 

The New Operational Service Medal

On 8 September, 2010, the Governor General and Commander-in-Chief of Canada announced that Her Majesty the Queen approved the creation of the Operational Service Medal (OSM). This is the second announcement concerning improvements to the Canadian honours system following a major review of all recognition provided for overseas service. 

The first announcement, which occurred on 17 March, 2010, announced theatre-specific ribbons and rotation bars to the South-West Asia Service Medal (SWASM), the General Campaign Star (GCS) and the General Service Medal (GSM) - the general service awards that recognize service performed in the presence of an armed enemy.

The creation of the OSM is a much-welcomed addition to the Canadian honours system as it fills a gap in the overseas recognition framework to provide recognition to operations (other than those conducted in the presence of an armed enemy) for which there were no medals available. The OSM will provide an appropriate form of recognition for service not recognized by other medals and will shorten the delay for recognition in the future. 

Eligibility and Criteria 

The OSM will be awarded to CF members, members of allied forces on exchange with the CF, Canadian police officers and Canadian civilians working under the authority of the CF or Canadian Police Forces who, on or after 7 October, 2001, served in a theatre of operations, worked in direct support of approved operations or served under dangerous circumstances outside Canada provided the service has not been recognized through another service medal aside from the Canadian Peacekeeping Service Medal (CPSM) where appropriate. 

Description 

The Medal, which is silver in colour, consists of a circular medallion with an effigy of Her Majesty The Queen of Canada with the inscriptions "Elizabeth II Dei Gratia Regina" and "CANADA" on the obverse. A representation of the globe and crossed branches of laurel and oak leaves appear on the reverse. 

Theatre-specific ribbons

Similar to the recently modified GSM and GCS, the OSM is issued with a ribbon specific to the theatre or type of service being recognized, and each ribbon has its own criteria. At this time, six ribbons have been created each requiring 30 days of accumulated eligible service:

SOUTH-WEST ASIA: intended primarily for non-CF service in this region from 7 October, 2001;

SIERRA LEONE: military service in that country from 31 July, 2002. Primarily intended for CF members who served with the British-led International Military Advisory and Training Team (IMATT) following the Lome Peace Agreement (Op SCULPTURE);

HAITI: military service in that country from 6 March, 2004. Primarily intended for CF members who served with the US-led Multinational Interim Force (MIF) from 6 March to 16 August 2004 (Op HALO) as well as for direct support provided by the medical evacuation team in the Dominican Republic; 

SUDAN: military service in that country from 15 September, 2004. Primarily intended for CF members who served with the African Union-led mission in Darfur from 15 September, 2004 to 31 December, 2007 (Op AUGURAL) as well as for direct support provided to the ops conducted in the Sudan from Ethiopia and Senegal;

HUMANITAS: replaces the HUMANITAS bar to the Special Service Medal (SSM) (which was reserved for CF members only) as of 1 August 2009. This new award will allow recognition of police personnel and Canadian civilians working with the CF or police on approved humanitarian missions from 1 August, 2009. Recipients of the SSM-H for humanitarian service performed before 1 August, 2009 retain their medal and may later earn this new medal if they meet the criteria. At this time, only humanitarian relief service following the earthquake in Haiti from 12 January, 2010 to 2 May, 2010 (Op HESTIA) is approved. Service in Haiti itself as well as support provided from Barahona, Dominican Republic, and Kingston, Jamaica, during that period is eligible; and

EXPEDITION: to cover smaller operations for which there are no medals available or service in dangerous circumstances outside of an existing theatre from 7 October, 2001. One mission has been approved so far for military service in the Middle East with the Office of the United States Security Coordinator (Op PROTEUS) from 3 May, 2005.

Rotation Recognition

Rotation bars are awarded for each period of 180 cumulative days of eligible service after qualification for the OSM or the last rotation bar the person has earned. 

Distribution

The Governor General will preside over an inaugural presentation ceremony at a later date after which general distribution will follow.  



CONTACT INFORMATION: 
Information: 1-866-377-0811/613-996-2353
www.forces.gc.ca


----------



## vonGarvin

Now I'll have to add one more to my "bling rack"


----------



## medicineman

And there was much rejoicing  :nod:.

MM


----------



## armyvern

Finally!!

Kudos to all of you who have earned this; I know that some of you have waited a very long time for your nation to recognize your service in these areas.

Well earned!!


----------



## vonGarvin

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Finally!!
> 
> Kudos to all of you who have earned this; I know that some of you have waited a very long time for your nation to recognize your service in these areas.
> 
> Well earned!!


Thanks, Vern!


----------



## jollyjacktar

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Finally!!
> 
> Kudos to all of you who have earned this; I know that some of you have waited a very long time for your nation to recognize your service in these areas.
> 
> Well earned!!



Well said.  It's nice to see that some cracks have been filled that some folks were falling into.  BZ to those who will receive the recognition.


----------



## AmmoTech90

Haiti 04, Sierra Leone, Sudan, et al have been recognized.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/news-nouvelles/news-nouvelles-eng.asp?cat=00&id=3534

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/news-nouvelles/news-nouvelles-eng.asp?cat=00&id=3535

http://www.gg.ca/document.aspx?id=13849


----------



## AmmoTech90

Also posted in:

http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/40967.120.html



> Haiti 04, Sierra Leone, Sudan, et al have been recognized.
> 
> http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/news-nouvelles/news-nouvelles-eng.asp?cat=00&id=3534
> 
> http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/news-nouvelles/news-nouvelles-eng.asp?cat=00&id=3535
> 
> http://www.gg.ca/document.aspx?id=13849


----------



## PuckChaser

So 2 years after this thread was opened, we can finally lock it knowing the members who served with distinction representing Canada will get their deserved public recognition. Pretty excellent day.


----------



## gaspasser

It is very pleasing to see some recognition for all the little things our Troops do.  I guess our MSS people will be getting one more to add to their racks for doing such a great job in Haiti.
BZ and   to all Our Troops Deployed.
Come home Safe   :yellow:    iper:


----------



## AmmoTech90

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Finally!!
> 
> Kudos to all of you who have earned this; I know that some of you have waited a very long time for your nation to recognize your service in these areas.
> 
> Well earned!!



Cheers, TV get your new Tech Adj to buy you drink on my tab.  He knows I'm good for it.


----------



## dapaterson

... except we've been in Sierra Leone since 2000, and the OSM is for mid-2002 onwards only.  The earlier tours did receive a Brit medal, but nothing from Canada... so far...


----------



## PuckChaser

Were those British medals approved for wear?


----------



## vonGarvin

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> Cheers, TV get your new Tech Adj to buy you drink on my tab.  He knows I'm good for it.



Will do!  And thanks!

:cheers:


----------



## dapaterson

Eventually.  But as non-Canadian, they go at the end of your medals, after even the CD.  And they are recognition from Her Majesy in right of the UK, not Her Majesty in right of Canada.


----------



## Haggis

This is great news for all who served on "forgotten" missions.  Now, how about something for Domestic Operations???   :highjack:


----------



## Loachman

Haggis said:
			
		

> This is great news for all who served on "forgotten" missions.  Now, how about something for Domestic Operations???   :highjack:



Yes, because I ate so much smoked salmon on Statendam during Podium that I no longer have quite the appreciation for it that I formerly had. That level of suffering has to be worth something.

Congratulations to the recipients of the new medal.


----------



## dapaterson

Loachman said:
			
		

> Yes, because I ate so much smoked salmon on Statendam during Podium that I no longer have quite the appreciation for it that I formerly had. That level of suffering has to be worth something.
> 
> Congratulations to the recipients of the new medal.



Staying on a cruise ship and eating smoked salmon...

You can take tac air from the Air Force, but you can't take the Air Force out of the tac air...  >


----------



## Pusser

dapaterson said:
			
		

> ... except we've been in Sierra Leone since 2000, and the OSM is for mid-2002 onwards only.  The earlier tours did receive a Brit medal, but nothing from Canada... so far...



Don't count on in.  The precedent has been set, if you get a medal from someone else, you won't get another one from Canada.  Just look at all the UN and NATO medals and the fact that it's an Australian medal that Canadians received for service in East Timor.  Canadian policy prohibits dual recognition and the rules for the OSM specifically state that it will only be awarded for missions for which no other medal is awarded (other than the CPSM).


----------



## Loachman

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Staying on a cruise ship and eating smoked salmon...
> 
> You can take tac air from the Air Force, but you can't take the Air Force out of the tac air...  >



I am neither tac air (which would be seized-wing zoomie stuff) nor a** f**ce, regardless of the colour of dress uniform that Brian Mulroney stuck me with.

And the Mounties made us live on a boat and eat nice food. Who were we to argue?


----------



## dapaterson

Now that I'm done with my silly Army Aviaition baiting, I'll observe that the qualifications or the OSM - "not faced with armed enemies" - would disqualify the early years of OP SCULPTURE, when the enemy most definitely was armed.


----------



## SeanNewman

Congrats to everyone who has deserved this for so long.  

If I read it correctly, the 04 Haiti mission will have a different ribbon than the 10 Haiti medal (humanitas).


----------



## vonGarvin

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Congrats to everyone who has deserved this for so long.
> 
> If I read it correctly, the 04 Haiti mission will have a different ribbon than the 10 Haiti medal (humanitas).


You are correct:

OSM-H


> This currently includes those who served in Haiti as part of the US-led Multinational Interim Force (MIF) from 6 March to 16 August 2004 (Operation HALO) as well as those members of the medical evacuation team who deployed to the Dominican Republic during the same period to provide direct support to the operation conducted in Haiti.



OSM-HUM


> This ribbon replaces the HUMANITAS bar to the Special Service Medal as of 1 August 2009. Those who earned the SSM-HUMANITAS retain it but no other eligible mission will be added to its eligibility list. The change was made because the SSM is reserved for members of the CF only and there was desire to recognize police officers and Canadian civilians serving with the CF and the police in humanitarian missions. Only service on approved humanitarian missions from 1 August 2009 onwards can be credited toward this new medal.
> 
> This includes those who served as part of the humanitarian mission in Haiti following the earthquake (Op HESTIA) from 12 January 2010 to 2 May 2010, including members of the Disaster Assistance Response Team (DART) who served in the theatre of operations and also including members who deployed to Barahona, Dominican Republic, and Kingston, Jamaica, during the same period to provide direct support to the humanitarian mission conducted in Haiti.


----------



## danchapps

Loachman said:
			
		

> I am neither tac air (which would be seized-wing zoomie stuff) nor a** f**ce, regardless of the colour of dress uniform that Brian Mulroney stuck me with.
> 
> And the Mounties made us live on a boat and eat nice food. Who were we to argue?



You may have stayed on a boat eating fancy food, but I stayed in mod tent eating from a flying kitchen. Then there are those than had it worse than us, out patrolling constantly. Iit would be nice to have a domestic medal. Thinking back to the Red River Floods, Ice Storm '98, he Quebec Floods, BC Fires, Podium, and now Igor. Now that I think of it, it would be great to be recognized for domestic stuff, when merited of course. My 2 cents.


----------



## George Wallace

Chapeski said:
			
		

> You may have stayed on a boat eating fancy food, but I stayed in mod tent eating from a flying kitchen. Then there are those than had it worse than us, out patrolling constantly. Iit would be nice to have a domestic medal. Thinking back to the Red River Floods, Ice Storm '98, he Quebec Floods, BC Fires, Podium, and now Igor. Now that I think of it, it would be great to be recognized for domestic stuff, when merited of course. My 2 cents.



So you are a "collector".  For twelve years of Service to your nation a CD is not enough?  You need a chest full of gongs to make you a "real" soldier/sailor/airman?


----------



## danchapps

I'm not saying I was in all of those domestic ops. I'm saying that it would be nice for those that were in those domestic ops to have some recognition. And no, I do not have a CD, I've only been in 3 years. However, considering some have received the NATO medal while residing in Germany in the 80's, one might think it would be fair to have something for work in Canada. The SSM is awarded for going to Alert, I understand why, you are away from your family for a 6 month tour. But when an Op has a CANFORGEN sent out stating that Ottawa is proud, and has designated it a special duty operation, well, shouldn't there be a little something, other than words on a screen? That's all I'm saying.


----------



## George Wallace

Chapeski said:
			
		

> I'm not saying I was in all of those domestic ops. I'm saying that it would be nice for those that were in those domestic ops to have some recognition. And no, I do not have a CD, I've only been in 3 years. However, considering some have received the NATO medal while residing in Germany in the 80's, one might think it would be fair to have something for work in Canada. The SSM is awarded for going to Alert, I understand why, you are away from your family for a 6 month tour. But when an Op has a CANFORGEN sent out stating that Ottawa is proud, and has designated it a special duty operation, well, shouldn't there be a little something, other than words on a screen? That's all I'm saying.



OK.  I now understand, from the above, that you have little experience, and know very little about the Canadian Honours and Awards system, and have not bothered to read up on it, so I will just leave you at this.


----------



## brihard

Chapeski said:
			
		

> You may have stayed on a boat eating fancy food, but I stayed in mod tent eating from a flying kitchen. Then there are those than had it worse than us, out patrolling constantly. Iit would be nice to have a domestic medal. Thinking back to the Red River Floods, Ice Storm '98, he Quebec Floods, BC Fires, Podium, and now Igor. Now that I think of it, it would be great to be recognized for domestic stuff, when merited of course. My 2 cents.



The hardship you describe sounds remarkably like that considered when determining a unit's eligibility for Land Duty Allowance.

You get recognized for domestic stuff. Canadians will say 'thank you'. It'll probably be on your PER. You get the opportunity to prove yourself to your chain of command in an operational context. You get a rather generous amount of paid leave to recognize that sometimes you work longer than would normally be the case, or are pulled away from home.

There's nothing particularly unique or extraordinarily hazardous about a DOMOP that merits further dilution of our system of honours and awards. When you're in a field unit, doing field stuff is your job. Tradition has established a system of recognition for overseas service, but there's simply nothing that justifies adding more bling for going out and doing what's expected of us when the civil authorities find their capabilities exceeded.


----------



## 392

Chapeski said:
			
		

> But when an Op has a CANFORGEN sent out stating that Ottawa is proud, and has designated it a special duty operation, well, shouldn't there be a little something, other than words on a screen? That's all I'm saying.



You are aware that the deeming of Op PODIUM as a special duty area, is not for H&A recognition right?


----------



## mariomike

Chapeski said:
			
		

> Iit would be nice to have a domestic medal. Thinking back to the Red River Floods, Ice Storm '98, he Quebec Floods, BC Fires, Podium, and now Igor. Now that I think of it, it would be great to be recognized for domestic stuff, when merited of course.



Might as well add one more to the list.


----------



## armyvern

mariomike said:
			
		

> Might as well add one more to the list.



One more?

How about many more?

76 Olympics;
Oka;
FLQ crisis; 
TO snow shovelling jugernaut;
Various New Brunswick forest fires mid-80s;
Upteen tens of Saint John River floods (an annual activity for those posted to Gagetown!!);
Y2K 

etc etc etc

Come on folks. Our #1 raison d'etre in the CF has to do with that which occurs inside our borders or threatens our borders. It's our job.


----------



## vonGarvin

Chapeski said:
			
		

> However, considering some have received the NATO medal while residing in Germany in the 80's, one might think it would be fair to have something for work in Canada.


I'm going to start by saying that I have never been posted to Canadian Forces Europe.  

Canadian servicemembers in Europe as part of NATO were there in an operational role, helping to win a war without firing a shot.  And they succeeded as a minor player in the Central Army Group.  Dudes such as Sun Tzu would say that winning without going to battle is probably the best way to win.  And we did.  I for one am proud of what our little armed force was able to do, and individual recognition is more than warranted.  We had substantial forces deployed in an operational area from the 1950s to the 1990s, and for our country, it was a substantial accomplishment, especially since our troops did more than "reside" in Germany.


----------



## PuckChaser

If I got a medal for being on OP Cadence, I wouldn't be proud to wear it.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Technoviking said:
			
		

> I'm going to start by saying that I have never been posted to Canadian Forces Europe.
> 
> Canadian servicemembers in Europe as part of NATO were there in an operational role, helping to win a war without firing a shot.  And they succeeded as a minor *powerful, nuclear armed* player in the Central Army Group *formation in the all important Northern Army Group*.  Dudes such as Sun Tzu would say that winning without going to battle is probably the best way to win.  And we did.  I for one am proud of what our little armed force was able to do, and individual recognition is more than warranted.  We had substantial forces deployed in an operational area from the 1950s to the 1990s, and for our country, it was a substantial accomplishment, especially since our troops did more than "reside" in Germany.




I might have phrased it a bit differently, TV.


----------



## vonGarvin

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I might have phrased it a bit differently, TV.


Of course, I was thinking of the post-move from NORTHAG to CENTAG.  Hell, in that, I was missing half of the time we had forces in Europe from the 1950's on!


----------



## brihard

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> If I got a medal for being on OP Cadence, I wouldn't be proud to wear it.



The Domestic Operations Service Medal - OP Cadence is hereby established for domestic operations in the face of conditions of hardship and deprivation of morale.

The medal, which is green in colour, consists of a circular medallion, engraved with two spiral patterns overlapped in the fashion of a packaged pair of mosquito coils, with an inscription reading 'FML' in large letters filling the obverse, and on the reverse an inscription of the soldier/s rank, name and service number at the time of the operation, and a tally of the quantity of mosquito repellent consumed (in millilitres).

The medal shall be awarded for seven days or greater service with any of the elements of the various task forces established under the structure of said operation. A green bar shall be awarded for each instance on which the soldier was observed to have cried, or pledged never again to deploy on a DOMOP.


----------



## armyvern

Brihard said:
			
		

> The Domestic Operations Service Medal - OP Cadence is hereby established for domestic operations in the face of conditions of hardship and deprivation of morale.
> 
> The medal, which is green in colour, consists of a circular medallion, engraved with two spiral patterns overlapped in the fashion of a packaged pair of mosquito coils, with an inscription reading 'FML' in large letters filling the obverse, and on the reverse an inscription of the soldier/s rank, name and service number at the time of the operation, and a tally of the quantity of mosquito repellent consumed (in millilitres).
> 
> The medal shall be awarded for seven days or greater service with any of the elements of the various task forces established under the structure of said operation. A green bar shall be awarded for each instance on which the soldier was observed to have cried, or pledged never again to deploy on a DOMOP.



I hereby declare this medal VETOED on behalf of the Opposition Parties who, according to all MSM reportage these days, strongly disagree that you hundreds of soldiers and LEOs who were stationed in forested areas for weeks while conducting patrol, perimeter and surveillance tasks as Op Cadence were desrving of purchasing a single fuid ounce of mosquito repellant for.

For cripes sakes ... listen to the babbling tards going on about "unjustified expenses"; easy for them to spout when it wasn't their own asses being targetted 5000 times a day by the tiny, black little enemy critters.


----------



## danchapps

Well, excuse me for thinking domestic operations might warrant a little more than an impersonal thank you by means of a CANFORGEN. And if you look back a page prior to my first post on the subject you will notice I was NOT the one that brought this up, however it was Haggis that did, all I did however was elaborate on the subject in support of it. So, from the sounds of what you all are saying, is that NOTHING done in Canada is worth a medal, so feel free to return your SSM's from Alert and the Flight 111 missions if you are so against it.

I for one do not feel the need to sit here and argue my point, or dogpile on someone that has a different opinion than myself. So with that said, I'm the hell out of here, I have better things to do with my time.


----------



## vonGarvin

Chapeski said:
			
		

> I for one do not feel the need to sit here and argue my point, or dogpile on someone that has a different opinion than myself. So with that said, I'm the hell out of here, I have better things to do with my time.


I'm not trying to dogpile you, and I appreciate that you have a different opinion.  My post was only about our contribution to Germany, because our forces did more than just reside there, and that was my only point.


----------



## armyvern

Chapeski said:
			
		

> Well, excuse me for thinking domestic operations might warrant a little more than an impersonal thank you by means of a CANFORGEN. And if you look back a page prior to my first post on the subject you will notice I was NOT the one that brought this up, however it was Haggis that did, all I did however was elaborate on the subject in support of it. So, from the sounds of what you all are saying, is that NOTHING done in Canada is worth a medal, so feel free to return your SSM's from Alert and the Flight 111 missions if you are so against it.
> 
> I for one do not feel the need to sit here and argue my point, or dogpile on someone that has a different opinion than myself. So with that said, I'm the hell out of here, I have better things to do with my time.



Relax your horomone; no one said that you brought it up.

My comment was to your "add one more". My point was that the CF does, and has done, this stuff since it's inception.

The Canadian Armed Forces was established via an Act of Parliament to defend and to act in the Defence of Canada and Her interests respecting her sovereignty and stability. We are EXPECTED to do that as part of our daily routine within Her borders. It is, quite simply, a job "requirement".

When we move OUTSIDE of her borders at Her request to protect her interests abroad ... we move into a different territory that IS recognized with medals and other assorted bling - exactly because that occurs outside Her Sovereign borders.

You may not like that fact, but I don't need a medal for putting my damn boots on every day and assisting my community when they need it in times of emergency. That's my job. It is, and has always been, a written expectation of personnel serving in the CF since the inception, by lawful Act, of the Canadian Armed Forces.

Dogpile!!?? TWO people made comments regarding your post. I commented as to your "add one more" and Techno called you on your CFE BS. That does not a dogpile make. You've just done it again with your last line of this post regarding the Alert and Swiss Air.  :  You made an ill-advised, and obviously uneducated comment regarding CF members who served with NATO in CFE; you got called on it. Much more occured there than beer & bratwurst as you'd infer. I was there as a school kid - doing drills of loading onto flights for evac should the nukes start; if you are inferring that those of us who actually lived in, and participated in that Cold War era, had NO worries and got fat, drunk, and happy when there was ZERO chance of shit hitting the fan ... I've got news for you: You'd be 100% wrong.


----------



## vonGarvin

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I was there as a school kid - doing drills of loading onto flights for evac should the nukes start;


[slight tangent]
I was there in 82-83 as an exchange student.  They never included me in those drills. I guess that "hope" was a method for them, and I never really thought "what if?" until I heard about Able Archer 83. 

[/slight tangent]


----------



## armyvern

Technoviking said:
			
		

> [slight tangent]
> I was there in 82-83 as an exchange student.  They never included me in those drills. I guess that "hope" was a method for them, and I never really thought "what if?" until I heard about Able Archer 83.
> 
> [/slight tangent]



"My father is: 426 011 9XX, MCpl RC Wightman, FMSU" ... I remember the memorized chant to this day ...  :-X

For us, it was harkening to the Cuban Missile Crisis - Bay of Pigs. Funny, I guess our younger Canadians don't learn about that shit in their history classes anymore; many, apparently thinking that all was copacetic.


----------



## PuckChaser

Brihard said:
			
		

> The Domestic Operations Service Medal - OP Cadence is hereby established for domestic operations in the face of conditions of hardship and deprivation of morale.
> 
> The medal, which is green in colour, consists of a circular medallion, engraved with two spiral patterns overlapped in the fashion of a packaged pair of mosquito coils, with an inscription reading 'FML' in large letters filling the obverse, and on the reverse an inscription of the soldier/s rank, name and service number at the time of the operation, and a tally of the quantity of mosquito repellent consumed (in millilitres).
> 
> The medal shall be awarded for seven days or greater service with any of the elements of the various task forces established under the structure of said operation. A green bar shall be awarded for each instance on which the soldier was observed to have cried, or pledged never again to deploy on a DOMOP.



I retract my previous statement, I'd wear that medal. For the bars though, I'd go on another DOMOP, just not one run by LFCA. The amount of times I've heard "Treat this as a real operation" where most highers conducted it as a weekend exercise blew my mind.


----------



## mariomike

Chapeski said:
			
		

> Well, excuse me for thinking domestic operations might warrant a little more than an impersonal thank you by means of a CANFORGEN.



How about a gold watch and a handshake after 25 years of it?


----------



## daftandbarmy

Chapeski said:
			
		

> I'm not saying I was in all of those domestic ops. I'm saying that it would be nice for those that were in those domestic ops to have some recognition. And no, I do not have a CD, I've only been in 3 years. However, considering some have received the NATO medal while residing in Germany in the 80's, one might think it would be fair to have something for work in Canada. The SSM is awarded for going to Alert, I understand why, you are away from your family for a 6 month tour. But when an Op has a CANFORGEN sent out stating that Ottawa is proud, and has designated it a special duty operation, well, shouldn't there be a little something, other than words on a screen? That's all I'm saying.



I've seen guys who have plaques or framed certificates on their walls to recognize their contributions to various big exercises etc. Maybe a nice thank you letter from the senior commander and a plaque would be a good idea. The letter you can use in a personal bio package (for potential employers etc), and the plaque can grace your 'love me' wall.

Badges? We don't need no steekin' badges for Dom Ops.


----------



## dogger1936

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I've seen guys who have plaques or framed certificates on their walls to recognize their contributions to various big exercises etc. Maybe a nice thank you letter from the senior commander and a plaque would be a good idea. The letter you can use in a personal bio package (for potential employers etc), and the plaque can grace your 'love me' wall.
> 
> Badges? We don't need no steekin' badges for Dom Ops.


Im running out of cardboard boxes for those things


----------



## Danjanou

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> Im running out of cardboard boxes for those things



I switched to plastic bins, someday I may want to move them out of the basement  and set up my "I love me wall." 8)

Gee as another poor sod who has a Schnaps & Schnitzel Medal, nice for someone to explain to me what it was I was doing over there three decades ago. While I do know it dosen't rank up there with storming Juno Beach or a patrol in the Panjwai, it was a bit of an eye opener when you first arrived. Snowball's, RAF wanted posters in the towns, armed guards on the main gate versus a snoozing Commisionaire, and the sudden realization that there were 50+ Category A Soviet Bloc Divisions who really didn't like you sitting on the other side of a barbed wire fence. Crap no wonder we drank heavily every night.

Bud you want medals, I here the LOF is recruiting.

BTW Techno, we had no intention of evacing you, we needed some urchin who spoke the language to help us E&E to Switzerland. 8)

Edit- to correct typos :-[


----------



## George Wallace

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> Im running out of cardboard boxes for those things



You aren't the only one.  Not enough wall space for all of them.


----------



## Blackadder1916

mariomike said:
			
		

> How about a gold watch and a handshake after 25 years of it?



Other way round, got a handshake and they asked for the green plastic watch back.


----------



## brihard

Chapeski said:
			
		

> Well, excuse me for thinking domestic operations might warrant a little more than an impersonal thank you by means of a CANFORGEN. And if you look back a page prior to my first post on the subject you will notice I was NOT the one that brought this up, however it was Haggis that did, all I did however was elaborate on the subject in support of it. So, from the sounds of what you all are saying, is that NOTHING done in Canada is worth a medal, so feel free to return your SSM's from Alert and the Flight 111 missions if you are so against it.
> 
> I for one do not feel the need to sit here and argue my point, or dogpile on someone that has a different opinion than myself. So with that said, I'm the hell out of here, I have better things to do with my time.



You're excused. If your feelings are hurt, I think there's a form for that now.

When you're done with the melodramatic 'poor pity me' act, maybe you can simply accept that sometimes you will hold an opinion that several others will disagree with, and that disagreement will be stated, articulated, and defended by those of us holding those contrary views. It's not an attack on you as a person, it's not an attack on your point of view, it's simply demonstrating that we think otherwise and why we do so.

Your _reductio ad absurdum_ in suggesting we hold the view that nothing done in Canada is recognizable is nonsense, and patently false in light of the approbation you'll frequently see us give when Bravery Medals, Stars of Courage, and similar decorations are handed out. If you think two of us daring to contradict you is a 'dogpile', you're sorely mistaken. You'll know when you get dogpiled here.


----------



## mariomike

A short speech about domestic medals: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S97mCU6-21Y


----------



## daftandbarmy

Brihard said:
			
		

> You'll know when you get dogpiled here.



You're telling me... just try and suggest something sensible around here like 'bring back that dapper Garrison Dress jacket' and they're on you like the priest on the fat kid on the Smartie  :


----------



## Arctic Acorn

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Gee as another poor sod who has a Schnaps & Schnitzel Medal, nice for someone to explain to me what it was I was doing over there three decades ago. While I do know it dosen't rank up there with storming Juno Beach or a patrol in the Panjwai, it wa s abit of an eye opener when you first arrived. Snowball's, RAF wanted piosters in the towns, armed guards on the main gate versus an snoozing Commisionaire, and the sudden realization that there were 50+ Category A Soviet Bloc who really didn't like you sitting on the other side of a barbed wire fence. Crap no wonder we drank heavily every night.



Someone on here once made a comment about this I remember well (Vern...)...you serve when you can serve, in the conditions at the time. 

We don't get to pick the geopolitical situation, or what conflicts that the government chooses to send the CF to. The main thing is to stand and be counted when we're needed. Some may argue that certain deployments are somehow worth more than others. IMHO I think that's crap. Every era had it's 'Big Show', wether it was a World War, Korea, Cyprus, Germany, Bosnia, Afghanistan, etc. They all involved some element of hardship and danger (or the threat thereof). The main thing is that you signed up and went. Its easy to look back and say one was more difficult than another, but that's a narrative fallacy and doesn't do justice to those who went. 

For the DOMOP debate, I personally don't think we really need a medal for something like that, however there is precedent for such...the Germans issue medals for domestic operations as an example.  Playing devils advocate here, who does it really hurt? Comparisons to the US almost always get tossed out whenever a new medal gets issued, but I don't think a DOMOP medal would somehow dilute the importance of existing awards. It certainly wouldn't make me view my own medals any differently...I know what I did to earn them. Some of the arguments here make me recall a similar debate over the GCS, with some taking exception to issuing it to folks who never left KAF versus folks who spent their entire deployment outside the wire. 

It would be an interesting poll to see who is for and against a DOMOP medal and compare the results to who has an international deployment versus who doesn't.


----------



## dapaterson

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> You're telling me... just try and suggest something sensible around here like 'bring back that dapper Garrison Dress jacket' and they're on you like the priest on the fat kid on the Smartie  :



Garrison Dress?  Pshaw.  Bring back the bus driver outfit that preceded it.  And the Ascot!


----------



## Danjanou

Ok hands up, who still has at last one ascot hidden in the bottom of their sock drawer?  8)


----------



## tango22a

Danjanou:

Not only do I have one, .....I HAVE TWO!!! (Which at the time we had to purchase from the Kit Shop)


Cheers, 

tango22a


----------



## mariomike

0tto Destruct said:
			
		

> ...the Germans issue medals for domestic operations as an example.



Is this the medal you are referring to?:
"German Armed Forces Flood Service Medal":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Armed_Forces_Flood_Service_Medal

"List of military decorations: Germany":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_decorations#Germany_.28Federal_Republic.29


----------



## Arctic Acorn

Thats the one. I was on a course with a guy who had one.


----------



## mariomike

0tto Destruct said:
			
		

> Thats the one. I was on a course with a guy who had one.



Sorry, I did not get back to you sooner. 
But, I wanted to mention it is not specifically a military medal.
"Eligibility: German and foreign armed service members, rescue service members, and civilians."


----------



## armyvern

0tto Destruct said:
			
		

> Someone on here once made a comment about this I remember well (Vern...)...you serve when you can serve, in the conditions at the time.
> ...



Gawd, that must have been during one of my very rare lucid moments.  :blotto:



			
				0tto Destruct said:
			
		

> ...
> It would be an interesting poll to see who is for and against a DOMOP medal and compare the results to who has an international deployment versus who doesn't.



Well, where do you include those who have a 125, QGJ etc (non DOMOP) or IntOp etc?  >

KIDDING!!!  8)


----------



## Arctic Acorn

No problem, and its a good point. That said, military decorations are not issued from within DND. Some awards are issued to both military and civilians. The General Service Medal is one example, though I don't know if there are too many more, other than bravery awards. 

At any rate, it is an example of a nation recognizing military participation in a Domestic Operation. 

Hey Vern: You don't have to be lucid to be right about something.  ;D 

Also, bringing up 'those' awards is a whole other kettle. I haven't seen a discussion yet involving those which didn't get someone's back up over the, shall we say _difference in eligibility requirements_ (e.g., the individual who was recognized by their CoC for hard work/dedication versus being the COs golfing buddy...). I've always thought that there more of the former than the latter, but enough that some tend to get defensive about the circumstances for issue.


----------



## armyvern

0tto Destruct said:
			
		

> Also, bringing up 'those' awards is a whole other kettle. I haven't seen a discussion yet involving those which didn't get someone's back up over the, shall we say _difference in eligibility requirements_ (e.g., the individual who was recognized by their CoC for hard work/dedication versus being the COs golfing buddy...). I've always thought that there more of the former than the latter, but enough that some tend to get defensive about the circumstances for issue.



I absolutely agree.

...

But, for DOMOPS - it's the same in my view. 

The CF exists as per lawful Act (and our #1 "job" with each and every Defence Paper is to defend and protect our sovereignty, security and stability *of and within* our borders. That's our day job - it is the *minimum* that the taxpayer expects from us and that which is required via lawful act; that's why we get paid by the taxpayer.

It's when we go outside of those borders that we are into territory literally "outside" of our realm ... and that's why we are recognized with bling for doing things *over and above* what is minimally expected of us - and perhaps - exactly how TB justified that we get extra bonus' & pay during those periods.

I, therefore, can see a very distinct and important difference in "Eligibility Requirements" between the two.


----------



## mariomike

0tto Destruct said:
			
		

> The General Service Medal is one example, though I don't know if there are too many more, other than bravery awards.



It says the bravery decorations were established on 1 May 1972. 
I figured I would know a lot of Toronto recipients. So, I took a look: 
http://www.gg.ca/honours.aspx?lan=eng

I checked: "All Levels of ( Bravery ) Award" and "All Incident Types" and only got 51 names. Which did not seem like a lot for almost 40 years, in a busy city this size. Especially considering some of the names were for the same incident.  

I was surprised. I did not know any of the bravery recipients. Not one I even heard of. I saw things I shall never forget. People at their worst, and their best. 
I know many of the 20 and 30 year Exemplary Service Medal recipients. Many of the ESMs were awarded posthumously. The City took years to put in the paper-work ( for the crews ), and the guys didn't know ( or care ) much about medals. 

Some of the bravery citations are heart-breaking: "On April 2, 1996, six-year-old Jennifer Koval's'kyj died trying to stop her mentally unstable father from attacking and eventually fatally wounding her grandmother in Bowmanville, Ontario. The man had already stabbed his mother several times with a kitchen knife when Jennifer arrived on the scene. She courageously stepped between her grandmother and her knife-wielding father and pleaded with him to stop. Knowing that her father was irrational at that time, she told him she loved him in an attempt to calm him down but the man tragically turned on her and inflicted multiple stab wounds which claimed the little girl's life."


----------



## vonGarvin

Danjanou said:
			
		

> BTW Techno, we had no intention of evacing you, we needed some urchin who spoke the language to help us E&E to Switzerland. 8)


IMHO, you made a good choice, because I not only spoke "Deutsch", but also "Allemannisch", or Allemanic German, the language group (not mere slang) that included "Schwäbisch", "Alsatian", "Badisch" and "Schwyzerdütsch" ("Swiss German")!  I'd get you there, alright, "Heijo!"


According to this map, I speak "Upper Rhine Allemanics", a point noted when I was in University by our various German exchange students.


----------



## Jungle

All, the thread is about the Operational Service Medal; let's stick to the subject.

You can open a new thread if you want to criticize COs and RSMs getting free-bees...


----------



## Rheostatic

The first batch will be awarded next Monday:
http://www.gg.ca/document.aspx?id=13969&lan=eng


			
				The GG said:
			
		

> Operational Service Medal Inaugural Ceremony
> December 2, 2010
> 
> Governor General to Preside Over the Inaugural Presentation
> of the Operational Service Medal
> OTTAWA—His Excellency the Right Honourable David Johnston, Governor General and Commander-in-Chief of Canada, will present the first 50 Operational Service Medals. The inaugural ceremony will be held at Rideau Hall on Monday, December 6, 2010, at 2:30 p.m.
> 
> The Operational Service Medal will be awarded to Canadian military personnel, to civilians under the authority of the Canadian Forces, and to members of allied forces integrated within the Canadian Forces, as well as to Canadian police officers who have taken part in important missions overseas.
> 
> The creation of the Operational Service Medal was announced on September 8, 2010 (http://www.gg.ca/document.aspx?id=13849&lan=eng). It is issued with a ribbon specific to the theatre or type of service being recognized, and each ribbon has its own criteria. At this time, six ribbons have been created: South-West Asia, Sierra Leone, Haiti, Sudan, HUMANITAS and EXPEDITION.
> 
> The list of recipients and additional information on the Operational Service Medal are attached.


----------



## medicineman

At least I actually recognize some of the names, but alas, neither Techno nor myself get to have tea and biscuits with the GG.

Glad they're rolling out.

MM


----------



## medicineman

I had to pop into the clinic today...accidentally saw my medal on the CSM's desk.  

MM


----------



## navypuke

Looks like they updated the mission list for the new OSM. Turns out I did a Southploy last year under the JIATF(S) umbrella. The ship was awarded 30 or 31 days in "theatre"  and my Pers Tempo under EMAA says 30 days on operation exactly. So you would think my ship would have qualified under this expanded list. 

So when I went to talk to my units clerk, he said we didn't qualify because we had a couple of days in port.  Even though our port visit was still humanitarian relief in Guatamala. The only thing that stopped us was the amount of flotsam on the rivers to get to people living on their roofs cause of flooding.  

Are their any clerks out there that could possibly point me to where the actual qualifying service has to be out at sea for the ships. And not in port. I was sure that time in port counted for Gulf bound ships, cause the ships are still in the "box" so to speak. They don't stop your hazard pay because your on a port visit in Dubai so why would they stop counting your service days like they did to us in Guatamala. Could my clerk be wrong? If hes right, then I'll guess I will have to get back onto another Southploy.


----------



## George Wallace

navypuke said:
			
		

> Are their any clerks out there that could possibly point me to where the actual qualifying service has to be out at sea for the ships. And not in port. I was sure that time in port counted for Gulf bound ships, cause the ships are still in the "box" so to speak. They don't stop your hazard pay because your on a port visit in Dubai so why would they stop counting your service days like they did to us in Guatamala. Could my clerk be wrong? If hes right, then I'll guess I will have to get back onto another Southploy.



Even if their days in port didn't count, I am sure that they would have easily qualified as they were there for six + months.


----------



## Infanteer

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Even if their days in port didn't count, I am sure that they would have easily qualified as they were there for six + months.





			
				navypuke said:
			
		

> Looks like they updated the mission list for the new OSM. Turns out I did a Southploy last year under the JIATF(S) umbrella. *The ship was awarded 30 or 31 days in "theatre"*  and my Pers Tempo under EMAA says 30 days on operation exactly. So you would think my ship would have qualified under this expanded list.


----------



## aesop081

navypuke said:
			
		

> So when I went to talk to my units clerk, he said we didn't qualify because we had a couple of days in port.  Even though our port visit was still humanitarian relief in Guatamala. The only thing that stopped us was the amount of flotsam on the rivers to get to people living on their roofs cause of flooding.



The AOR for OP CARIBBE is the Caribbean Sea, Gulf of Mexico and Eastern Pacific in support of JIATF(S) operations. I suspect that while you were in the AOR, your time in Guatemala was not in support of OP CARIBBE.

I don't know but that could be it.


----------



## Infanteer

This is a tricky one - guys in Afghanistan don't lose 20-odd days off their "days in theater count" while they go on HLTA, so I can't see why a ship dedicated to an Op loses days while in a port.

RMS clerks tend not to know the H&A system too well - they deal with MAPS but that's about it; the rest is driven by the chain-of-command.  I'd advise writing a memo through your chain to your ship's equivalent of an Adjutant.  He can go through the "N1" side to get the answer from the Honours and Awards folks.


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## jollyjacktar

Well it's nice to see the area is getting recognition now.  I did a half NATO doing counter drug ops off the Curaco, Aruba etc in 2000.  Not enough time to get a SSM, and not back datable for the OSM.  Ce'st la guerre.


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## q_1966

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> The AOR for OP CARIBBE is the Caribbean Sea, Gulf of Mexico and Eastern Pacific in support of JIATF(S) operations. I suspect that while you were in the AOR, your time in Guatemala was not in support of OP CARIBBE.
> 
> I don't know but that could be it.



Taken from HMCS Algonquin RO's

Ref: CANFORGEN 011/11

The Operational Service Medal with Expedition Ribbon (OSM EXP) has been approved for personnel who have served an accumulated total of 30 days on OP CARRIBE since 1 Nov 06.

The following list indicates which deployments are eligible.

Op CARIBBE - List of participating units

Dates are reflective of CHOP to JIATF(S) *Someone please tell me what CHOP means*

HMCS Fredericton: 25 Jun - 27 Jul 2007

HMCS Corner Brook: 12 Mar - 21 Apr 2008                                

HMCS Iroquois: 19 Apr - 30 Apr 2008

HMCS Calgary: 19 Apr - 30 Apr 2008

HMCS Protecteur: 19 Apr - 30 Apr 2008
                                   
HMCS Montreal: 28 Jul - 29 Aug 2008

HMCS St-John: 23 Aug - 24 Sep 2008  
                               
HMCS Preserver: 14 Apr - 27 May 2009

HMCS Calgary: 03 Sep - 10 Sep 2009: 
                        23 Sep - 27 Sep 2009;
                        19 Oct - 25 Oct 2009; and
                         27 Oct - 30 Oct 2009.

HMCS Toronto: 17 Sep - 19 Oct 2009

HMCS Vancouver: 12 Sep - 21 Sep 2010;
                             25 Sep - 29 Sep 2010; and
                              04 Oct - 12 Oct 2010.


HMCS Algonquin: 17 Aug - 25 Aug 2010;
                            24 Sep - 29 Sep 2010; and
                             04 Oct - 12 Oct 2010.

HMCS Protecteur: 17 Aug - 25 Aug 2010;
                            24 Sep - 29 Sep 2010; and
                             04 Oct - 12 Oct 2010.

HMCS Toronto: 07 Sep - 20 Sep 2010

Which means 6 days short of 30 days for me  

- Shawn


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## aesop081

Get Nautical said:
			
		

> *Someone please tell me what CHOP means*



It is the date where the unit starts to get its taskings from JIATF(S) HQ in Key West.



> Which means 6 days short of 30 days for me



I'm 3 days short.


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## q_1966

Im getting out, will this be stored somewhere for if I get back in? How do I go about proving it, years down the road?

- Shawn


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## George Wallace

Get Nautical said:
			
		

> Im getting out, will this be stored somewhere for if I get back in? How do I go about proving it, years down the road?
> 
> - Shawn



All your info is stored on your MPRR, in HMRS.  That will all be there should you decide to join the CF again at a later date.


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## navypuke

Thanks for posting that deployment list, I heard about it from people. But no one had it to show me. If you look at the list it looks like only East coast boats did enough time in one go to get the medal. Seems the east coast gets all the medals. I guess if your a west coaster you'll just have to go back for an additional trip down south. 6 days short is my number, looks like i'll just volunteer for the next southploy in the future to cap it off. I know a couple boys on the Calgary and Tanker that got the time though between two trips, I'm sure they'll be pleased.


----------



## navypuke

Actually those dates that they awarded were wrong for Vancouver, Algonquin, Protecteur. I just went over my calendar and we were origally supposed to be in Guatamala 5 days last year but we left in under 48 hours because the situation deteriorated beyond our control. So all three ships should be awarded more days cause we left morning of October 1st when we were supposed to leave the October 4th. It doesn't get any of those boats up to 30 days, but its a hole in that list.


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## gcclarke

navypuke said:
			
		

> Actually those dates that they awarded were wrong for Vancouver, Algonquin, Protecteur. I just went over my calendar and we were origally supposed to be in Guatamala 5 days last year but we left in under 48 hours because the situation deteriorated beyond our control. So all three ships should be awarded more days cause we left morning of October 1st when we were supposed to leave the October 4th. It doesn't get any of those boats up to 30 days, but its a hole in that list.



Guatamala was the one port visit that trip that I was really looking forward to, and I ended up not getting more than 10 m past PRO's brow. 

Dang rains.


----------



## q_1966

I wanted terribly to participate in that (on the one day off I had) as there was a huge BBQ on the flight deck for the crew we were working (the night we got in) 
Because we were leaving early and I was Night Baker I had to start at 7pm or so rather than the usual 11pm/midnight as they didnt know what was going to happen and could quickly turn into a big humanitarian mission.

What irritated me is, all the people that helped (ie: Jr ranks get the Rib or Zodiac on trailers to take the boat up the river) but when it came time (once the FOB was set up) the Officers and Chiefs didn't need anymore than a handful of people that originally volunteered.

The boat went inland  a considerable ways (stunk really bad) but couldnt find anyone and turned around

Then the rain subsided the next day and we left...making me feel like we did just enough to say *Hey look at Canada were Important*...Humanitarian Assistance indeed
Now this is just from what I know maybe someone can fill me in.


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## Lex Parsimoniae

navypuke said:
			
		

> Actually those dates that they awarded were wrong for Vancouver, Algonquin, Protecteur. I just went over my calendar and we were origally supposed to be in Guatemala 5 days last year but we left in under 48 hours because the situation deteriorated beyond our control. So all three ships should be awarded more days cause we left morning of October 1st when we were supposed to leave the October 4th. It doesn't get any of those boats up to 30 days, but its a hole in that list.


The dates are based on when the ships chopped to JIATF(S) control - just being at sea doesn't mean the ships were under JIATF(S) operational control.



			
				Get Nautical said:
			
		

> *Someone please tell me what CHOP means*


CHOP = Change of Operational Control


----------



## navypuke

From what I heard, we were told by the Guatemalan military that they had it under control, and they would only help if the local politicians would ask for help. I don't think they trust their own army. Since they didn't ask, we were not required.


----------



## gcclarke

I think part of it was a bit of overreaction on our part. We heard "There's flooding. People are stuck sitting on their roof." We instantly think that those poor people need to be rescued from said roof. When in fact, this is something that happens every year, the people are perfectly fine where they are and don't need "rescuing", as they're only staying there so they can keep an eye on all their worldly goods, which might otherwise have a tendency to "wander off". 

Regardless, the rains could have very easily made the logistics of ferrying people to and from Antigua an absolute nightmare, so the fact we left early isn't surprising, once we found out our assistance wasn't required. I believe the moral of the story is that if the closest place you can go to reasonably enjoy yourself is over an hour away by bus, you should probably look into heading to some other port.


----------



## q_1966

on a side note I am pretty sure I read somewhere that the US deployed 60 or so people for that, though it might of been a different crazy ass storm.


----------



## dinicthus

Curious. If you have been awarded medals, are you required to display them on your dress greens?


----------



## PMedMoe

dinicthus said:
			
		

> Curious. If you have been awarded medals, are you required to display them on your dress greens?



Yes, you are required to wear them when ordered.  Sometimes, just the ribbons.  But definitely one or the other on the DEU.


----------



## Halifax Tar

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Yes, you are required to wear them when ordered.  Sometimes, just the ribbons.  But definitely one or the other on the DEU.



Not always will one or  the other be required. During my OSQAB grad parade no medals or ribbons were to be worn on our tunics... No one understood the order and the RCR fellow who was a remusted to NWT was miffed... Rumor was the reviewing officer, LT(N), had nil medals. Just the rumor but who knows why now, that was 11 years ago lol


----------



## PMedMoe

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Not always will one or  the other be required. During my OSQAB grad parade no medals or ribbons were to be worn on our tunics... No one understood the order and the RCR fellow who was a remusted to NWT was miffed... Rumor was the reviewing officer, LT(N), had nil medals. Just the rumor but who knows why now, that was 11 years ago lol



You have to admit, that's got to be a rare case.


----------



## Journeyman

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> ....no medals or ribbons were to be worn on our tunics...


I'll leave it to the RSMs and Adjts to weigh in on the impropriety of that decision, but I'd be miffed too.


Mind you, when I was sentenced to NDHQ and had to wear DEU every day, I had a set of undress ribbons made up that consisted of just my deployment medals. I wore those to irritate a pompous co-worker who had only a CD, explaining that medals like my CD, QGJM, and Peacekeeping weren't "real" medals.



Of course, I'm _much_ more mature now   :nod:


----------



## medicineman

Last I looked at the dress regs, the DEU series 1-3 have as orders of dress ribbons if medals aren't appropriate and vice versa.  Sounds a little like another case of "Dress Regs According to Me".  If you have decorations, they go on the uniform - the order of dress and occasion dictates what form those decorations take.

JM - did you make a point of also wearing some of your other accoutrements to rub things in further?

MM


----------



## Journeyman

medicineman said:
			
		

> JM - did you make a point of also wearing some of your other accoutrements to rub things in further?


Naturally   ;D


----------



## medicineman

Thought so, but just checking for the record  ;D.

MM


----------



## Pusser

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Not always will one or  the other be required. During my OSQAB grad parade no medals or ribbons were to be worn on our tunics... No one understood the order and the RCR fellow who was a remusted to NWT was miffed... Rumor was the reviewing officer, LT(N), had nil medals. Just the rumor but who knows why now, that was 11 years ago lol



That is completely and utterly wrong!  All orders, decorations and medals in the Canadian Honours System are honours from the Crown and no one in the CF has the authority to tell someone not to wear them on the appropriate order of dress.  With the exception of longsleeve shirt orders with or without sweaters, there is no order of service dress (DEU) that does not include either medals or undress ribbons.  If you've earned them, you can wear them and no one can tell you otherwise.

Having said that, there is nothing that forces an individual to accept an order, decoration or medal....


----------



## Pusser

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I'll leave it to the RSMs and Adjts to weigh in on the impropriety of that decision, but I'd be miffed too.
> 
> 
> Mind you, when I was sentenced to NDHQ and had to wear DEU every day, I had a set of undress ribbons made up that consisted of just my deployment medals. I wore those to irritate a pompous co-worker who had only a CD, explaining that medals like my CD, QGJM, and Peacekeeping weren't "real" medals.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, I'm _much_ more mature now   :nod:



Sometimes the CD doesn't get the respect it deserves.  Twelve years of one's life is no small accomplishment and for some, behaving oneself for 12 years is a HUGE accomplishment. ;D  Despite the fact that one doesn't really have to do anything to receive a CD (other than behave - or at least not get caught for 12 years), it does represent a level of commitment that should be lauded.  Just because someone was never called to task doesn't mean they couldn't have been.

It's also worth noting that the CD is not a medal, it's a decoration, which means you get a postnominal letters and the right to put it on your personal coat of arms, should you so choose.  No other Canadian long service medal has this distinction.  It really is a step above the others.


----------



## Infanteer

Pusser said:
			
		

> It's also worth noting that the CD is not a medal, it's a decoration, which means you get a postnominal letters and the right to put it on your personal coat of arms, should you so choose.  No other Canadian long service medal has this distinction.  It really is a step above the others.



Well, it is a medal (as opposed to a device or a scroll); one that also happens to be a decoration.


----------



## Pusser

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Well, it is a medal (as opposed to a device or a scroll); one that also happens to be a decoration.



Although we often refer to all of our "gongs" or bits of metal suspended from coloured ribbons as "medals," strictly speaking, this is not correct.  All honours in the Canadian Honours System are broken down into orders, decorations and medals.  Each of these categories are distinct.  In short, not all medals are medals.  Some are decorations and some are the insignia of orders.


----------



## vonGarvin

Pusser said:
			
		

> It's also worth noting that the CD is not a medal, it's a decoration, which means you get a postnominal letters and the right to put it on your personal coat of arms, should you so choose.  No other Canadian long service medal has this distinction.  It really is a step above the others.


[pendantic mode on]
Actually, and ironically given its name, the Canadian Forces' Decoration is actually a "Long Service and Good Conduct Medal".  There were many  Long Service, Good Conduct and Efficiency medals awarded prior to the institution of the CD.  Also note that the Efficiency Decoration, which was given to commissioned officers with 20 years' service, allowed the officer to use the post-nominals "E.D."  (Others did as well, but that is but one other medal for long service, good conduct and/or efficiency that allowed you the honour of the post-nominals.  I don't know about the personal coat of arms, however).
[/pendantic]


----------



## Infanteer

[pedantic mode on]


			
				Technoviking said:
			
		

> [pendantic mode on]


[/pedantic]


----------



## vonGarvin

Just to clarify and provice a source for my earlier post re: CD not being a decoration.  

I designed the layout for the display at The RCR Museum in London ON many years ago, and I had to ensure that I "got things right" (pre-internet!  I actually had to read books!).  Anyway, these many years later I recalled that the CD was not a decoration, but a long service and good conduct medal.

As stated, there are Orders, Decorations and Medals.  According to A-AD-200-000/AG-000 THE HONOURS, FLAGS AND HERITAGE STRUCTURE OF THE CANADIAN FORCES, "decorations" consist of the following:

Victoria Cross
Cross of Valour
Star of Military Valour
Star of Courage
Meritorious Service Cross
Medal of Military Valour 
Medal of Bravery 
Meritorious Service Medal 
Royal Victorian Medal (RVM)

Some of these are Military Valour Decorations (VC, SMV, MMV) and others are Bravery Decorations (CV, SC, MB), and so forth.

Anyway, Appendix 1 to Annex A to Chapter 2 lists the groupings for the various honours, decorations and medals.  It lists two awards grouped under "Long Service and Good Conduct Medals":
RCMP Long Service Medal 
Canadian Forces Decoration

Anyway, FWIW.


----------



## vonGarvin

Infanteer said:
			
		

> [pedantic mode on][/pedantic]




The Game.  You win it!  ;D


----------



## Rheostatic

Since I remember well the last time I heard this argument:

From The Canadian Forces’ Decoration, Christopher McCreery


> Order of Precedence
> From its inception, it was decided that the CD should take precedence immediately after the RCMP Long Service Medal at the end of the Order of Precedence for orders, decorations and medals. In the Commonwealth, long service awards have historically been ranked at the end of the Order of Precedence, after Coronation and Commemorative Medals and ahead of foreign awards. Long service awards are ranked in order of their creation, the earliest having precedence. For this reason, the RCMP Long Service Medal, created in 1934, ranks ahead of the CD, which was created in 1949, while the various Exemplary Service Medals are placed after the CD.
> 
> The CD in Heraldry
> Recipients of the Canadian Forces’ Decoration have been permitted to include a representation of their CD insignia as part of their coat of arms. Arms are awarded to Canadian citizens of good standing who petition the Chief Herald of Canada for a grant. In Canada, a grant of arms is
> an honour bestowed under the Queen’s royal prerogative. Only duly recognized orders and decorations are traditionally displayed as part of a grant of arms. As the CD is a decoration, it may be appropriately displayed hanging from the rightful recipient’s shield of arms. Clasps to the CD may also be displayed on the ribbon. Recipients of the Efficiency Decoration have also been permitted to include the insignia of that decoration as part of their coat of arms.





			
				http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/16w-16e/nr-sp/index-eng.asp?id=443 said:
			
		

> According to Captain Carl Gauthier of the Honours and Awards section at DHH, there are 3 main types of national honours: orders, decorations and medals.  Orders and decorations rank higher than medals and bring some specific privileges that do not apply to medals, such as the use of post-nominal letters (OMM, MSM, etc).  In general, orders and decorations are in the shape of a cross or star, while medals are usually round.  Finally, orders, decorations and medals are (generally) worn in that order, from left to right, although there are many exceptions - the CD is one.
> 
> "In the old British system," explains Captain Gauthier, "long service awards were divided into two major categories: long service decorations for officers... and long service and good conduct medals for NCMs.  When the CD was created in 1949 to replace all these British awards for Canada's armed services personnel, it was decided that the same award would be used for all services and for all ranks."
> 
> According to Capt Gauthier, the decision to make the CD a single decoration for all was made so that officers would not be denied the use of post-nominal letters for a long service award.  As a result, Canadian Forces NCMs became the first in the former British Empire to receive a decoration (and be entitled to post-nominal letters) as a long service award.  "However," clarifies Captain Gauthier, "although it is a decoration, the CD still ranks with the other long service medals in the order of precedence, just like the old British awards did."
> 
> So there you have it.  Indeed, a decoration... but ranked with medals!


----------



## Blackadder1916

Pusser said:
			
		

> Sometimes the CD doesn't get the respect it deserves.  Twelve years of one's life is no small accomplishment and for some, behaving oneself for 12 years is a HUGE accomplishment. ;D  Despite the fact that one doesn't really have to do anything to receive a CD (other than behave - or at least not get caught for 12 years), it does represent a level of commitment that should be lauded.  Just because someone was never called to task doesn't mean they couldn't have been.
> 
> . . . . .



Whenever one of these discussions turns to the CD and the respect it receives or should receive, I am tempted to refer to a post I made a few years ago that aptly illustrates how people perceive this particular award (leaving the argument whether it's a decoration or medal for others).  I'll give into the temptation and repost it here.



			
				Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> One of my lasting memories of someone talking about the decorations and medals that he was wearing occurred in 1994.  I had the good luck of having a COS date out of Lahr that permitted me to arrange my passage home on the Queen Elizabeth 2 sailing out of Southampton on 8 June.  I was able therefore to drive to Normandy and spend 6 June 94 (50th Anniversary of D-Day) visiting some of the memorials and events there; take the ferry across to England; turn my car over to Cunard for loading onto the ship and then relax for several days on the North Atlantic.  The voyage was billed as a “D-Day Memorial” cruise.  Many of the passengers were WW II veterans, mostly American, some Brits, and at least one Canadian.
> 
> One of the events that occurred on the ship was the Captain’s Welcome Party.  Dressed in finest bib and tucker, you go through the receiving line, have your photo taken and then proceed to the most important part of the soiree… getting a drink.  Some of the other passengers were wearing medals, ribbons or devices that showed that they had served.  I was in mess kit as were a few of the other passengers including a Van Doo LCol and a husband & wife who were both pilots in the USAF.   It was particularly easy for the Van Doo and me to be noticed in the scarlet monkey jackets.
> 
> A few people had approached me with the inevitable questions about who we were and what were we doing.  I was chatting with a lady when we were approached by a gentleman in a maroon jacket that included Cdn para wings and several medals.  He introduced himself and joined in the conversation which naturally turned to where had you been.  He had served with the 1 Cdn Para Bn as a private during the war and had made the jump into Normandy and over the Rhine.
> 
> The lady with whom we were chatting asked about the medals and wings he and I were wearing.  I probably would have answered in my typically flippant manner about 12 years undetected crime (C.D.), 6 months getting a suntan and not getting a venereal disease (UNEFME) and 4 years wine and beer tasting (SSM with NATO bar), but he replied first by drawing her attention to the one medal we had in common, the Canadian Forces Decoration.  I was surprised when he told her it was the one that he was most proud to wear.  The lady asked why.  His reply impressed me and later that evening I wrote an account of what he said, maybe not verbatim, because we had imbibed several beverages, but close enough for government work.
> 
> He said.  “ It’s easy to be a soldier when everyone is or wants to be a soldier; when being in uniform is the normal thing to do.  The true measure of a man is his commitment to serving his country when there is little chance of excitement, or glory or getting medals.  This medal (he indicated his CD) shows people that we pledged a significant portion of our lives to serving our country when few others would, doing things that we didn't necessarily want to do and that were not very glamorous.  These (he indicated his 4 or 5 wartime medals) I got for spending 3 years in uniform doing what most guys my age were doing. Was it hard work and dangerous? Yes. But mostly I had a lot of fun doing it.”
> 
> Since then I’ve had a different perspective on those little pieces of ribbon that we wear.


----------



## PuckChaser

Great story, Blackadder. Thanks for posting it.


----------



## Journeyman

Yes, Blackadder, a great story.  :nod:
 I'm going to guess you crossed paths (and the Atlantic) with Jan DeV and his wife.


However, I think it's terrific that the Haiti vets have been waiting _this long_ for recognition, and we've so easily sidetracked the thread, robbing them of due fame....again! :nana:


----------



## medicineman

So just to totally derail it, something I thought appropriate for HALO vets given the connotations: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLzWi3S0DD8

MM


----------



## vonGarvin

Journeyman said:
			
		

> However, I think it's terrific that the Haiti vets have been waiting _this long_ for recognition, and we've so easily sidetracked the thread, robbing them of due fame....again! :nana:


Meh, as one Haiti vet, it's alright.  I can wait another 7 years  :nod:


----------



## Halifax Tar

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> You have to admit, that's got to be a rare case.



Fully agree that's a rare case to put it lightly.


----------

