# Damage To Uniform...



## 123404321 (1 May 2007)

So I'm Retiring from cadets, but there's a rip on the chest of my Uniform. It's prety noticeable. I can't fix it without it looking pinched or weird. What is policy on this??  Will i Have to pay for this? Does anyone know?? thanks.


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## stealthylizard (1 May 2007)

How was the rip caused?  For the most part, cadets will not have to pay for damaged uniforms, unless they did something stupid like take a knife to it because they were upset about something, or just wanted to be an idiot.  Explain how it happened and it should normally be fine.  Normal wear and tear happens, they won't hold you accountable for it.  For the most part it will just be written off and sent back to where ever in exchange for a new one.  Someone on the supply side may be better able to answer it.


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## armchair_throwaway (2 May 2007)

As stealthylizard said, there should be no problem getting an exchange as long as there was a valid reason. You mentioned that you're retiring from cadets. When I aged out, I was able to keep my uniform, so maybe that's an option for you too.


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## CdtBosn (8 May 2007)

Supply has always in my opinion been more then helpfull whenever we have dammaged kit. So long as nothing looks as though it was willfully dammaged you should be able to return it as things simply wearout. Also from my experiance telling the truth about what happened gets you in the clear the fastest and keeps you out of trouble so dont try to come up with a story about what happened. For myself when I retired I had to return all of my uniform other then running shoes, socks and Pt gear, I dont know about other units but that was how mine worked. Other then that hope you had a great time in Cadets!


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## armyvern (8 May 2007)

123404321 said:
			
		

> So I'm Retiring from cadets, but there's a rip on the chest of my Uniform. It's prety noticeable. I can't fix it without it looking pinched or weird. What is policy on this??  Will i Have to pay for this? Does anyone know?? thanks.



You shouldn't be required to pay for this. By the sounds of it (ie your 'retiring' comment), I'm guessing that you have a few years of cadets under your belt. Fair wear and tear on uniforms is perfectly acceptable and...normal.


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## D. Nicholson (10 May 2007)

Cadets never have to pay for missing, or broken uniform parts.


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## CdtBosn (10 May 2007)

I don't know if my old corps is different but then a few of our Gortex jackets went missing, to my understading the local branch sent out a bill to parents inorder to help stimulate kit returns.  





			
				D. Nicholson said:
			
		

> Cadets never have to pay for missing, or broken uniform parts.


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## stealthylizard (10 May 2007)

For the most part, cadets will not have to pay for damaged uniforms, unless it is obvious neglect, or wilful damage.  Missing gear is a different circumstance.  If it is something that is old, and phased out, or in the process of being phased out, most times they will let it go.  If it is something in short supply or relatively expensive, then it is at the CO's discretion of whether to charge for its loss, and how much if warranted.  Very rarely will you be charged for the full new cost regardless of the circumstances.


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## Neill McKay (11 May 2007)

Most cadet uniform items are not accounted for by the CF supply system.  They're, in effect, purchased from the supplier using points from the unit's account.  No money changes hands at the unit level.  I can't conceive of any reason for a cadet to be required to pay for a uniform item that has been damaged, especially as he's on his way out.

A very few items like ceremonial webbing are accounted for through the CF supply system.  But even then I'd be surprised if a cadet were asked to hand over any money.


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## armyvern (12 May 2007)

Neill

I don't think we're talking the Supply system per se. Once you've used your points at Logistik to get them into the Unit, they are normally still then accounted for in your Unit's "QM" and signed out to individuals on a temp loan card. The CO in question would be the CO of the Corps.

I agree, there is no reason to be charging anyone for replacement costs for fair wear and tear. That being said, there are occasions when the damage is wilful and should be paid for.


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## D. Nicholson (12 May 2007)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> I agree, there is no reason to be charging anyone for replacement costs for fair wear and tear. That being said, there are occasions when the damage is wilful and should be paid for.



The *only* time a Cadet _may_ have to pay for something is when it isn't owned by the Department of National Defence, but rather the sponsoring commitee.

There is no recourse available to collect from a Cadet, even if they destroy, let's say a ceremonial belt buckle which is accounted for.


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## armyvern (12 May 2007)

Really, I guess that's kind of true...I've seen _them_ collect from his parents instead, vice the actual cadet himself.

And that certainly _was_ for Crown owned kit.


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## Disenchantedsailor (13 May 2007)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> Neill
> 
> I don't think we're talking the Supply system per se. Once you've used your points at Logistik to get them into the Unit, they are normally still then accounted for in your Unit's "QM" and signed out to individuals on a temp loan card. The CO in question would be the CO of the Corps.
> 
> I agree, there is no reason to be charging anyone for replacement costs for fair wear and tear. That being said, there are occasions when the damage is wilful and should be paid for.



Got this from a supply type at a RCSU (won't say which one) once kit is issued it belongs to the cadet, much like service dress for CF Mbr's, if you need to replace it the unit will usually do it for you out of the CO's clothing budget unless the damage was caused by negelct, if you are on the other hand aging out, the kit is yours. Many Cadet corps take the stuff back in as a means to increasing the stock on hand rather than ordering a complete kit up for each cadet. and then of course once they get you kitted up with stuff that is not on thier charge, they order your kit and put it in stores.


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## armyvern (13 May 2007)

ArtyNewbie said:
			
		

> Got this from a supply type at a RCSU (won't say which one) once kit is issued it belongs to the cadet, much like service dress for CF Mbr's, if you need to replace it the unit will usually do it for you out of the CO's clothing budget unless the damage was caused by negelct, if you are on the other hand aging out, the kit is yours. Many Cadet corps take the stuff back in as a means to increasing the stock on hand rather than ordering a complete kit up for each cadet. and then of course once they get you kitted up with stuff that is not on thier charge, they order your kit and put it in stores.



Does this differ somehow from what I said?


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## Disenchantedsailor (13 May 2007)

only in that the corps QM should no longer account for the kit once it is issued


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## armyvern (13 May 2007)

ArtyNewbie said:
			
		

> only in that the corps QM should no longer account for the kit once it is issued



The ones around here still account for their holdings. If only to track their requirements for re-order purposes from Logistik, and to account for uniforms that are exchanged due to fair wear and tear. Trying to maintain your stock is quite hard to do...if you don't account for what you've issued or not. Rather the non-accounting of items held/issued...is what leads to abuse of the holdings; something that, if I were the one ultimately getting the kit into Corp, I'd most certainly want to ensure wasn't occuring.

I agree that items are retianed for age-out purposes; but there are many who don't age out and just fade away. A signed copy of the paperwork of him/her receiving his kit, to never show up again, goes along way in recovering those items from them in the process that then follows. Even if only to get that kit back for the youth who does show an interest to show up and learn.


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## Neill McKay (13 May 2007)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> Neill
> 
> I don't think we're talking the Supply system per se. Once you've used your points at Logistik to get them into the Unit, they are normally still then accounted for in your Unit's "QM" and signed out to individuals on a temp loan card. The CO in question would be the CO of the Corps.



That's correct (except that there is a cadet clothing doc, not the DND 638 temp loan card); they are accounted for locally within the unit, but not by the greater CF supply system.  I gather there was a time when cadet uniforms were in fact accounted for through the CF supply system just as CF uniforms were, but that was before my time.



> I agree, there is no reason to be charging anyone for replacement costs for fair wear and tear. That being said, there are occasions when the damage is wilful and should be paid for.



The direction we've had in the Atlantic provinces is not to pursue any recovery of costs for cadet uniforms.  Given that we are allocated enough points with Logistik to kit out every cadet who joins and handle as-needed replacements, there's little purpose in recovering uniform parts to keep in inventory anyway.  I've never seen wilful damage to a cadet uniform, but I've seen a few sartorial crimes committed with irons!


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## armyvern (13 May 2007)

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> That's correct (except that there is a cadet clothing doc, not the DND 638 temp loan card); they are accounted for locally within the unit, but not by the greater CF supply system.  I gather there was a time when cadet uniforms were in fact accounted for through the CF supply system just as CF uniforms were, but that was before my time.



I realize that we are not talking the CF Supply system which is why I used the term _per se_. As far as the Units around here go though, they still call their clothing/kit room a QM. 

Permanently issued CF uniforms are still accounted for using the CFSS BTW, a personal DEU uniform issue (a Logistik item - retained upon release) is still issued electronicly to their clothing docs, and is then signed for as proof of receipt of said item. Exchanges are then handled via Logistik, but the initial issues still show on the clothing docs. We don't track the exchanges thereafter as they are not done from our stock, nor ordered by us for the individual. But Logistik still tracks the "exchanges" (items ordered by members using points from their Logistik stock...), so that we get the bill for it. Points _aren't_ free. The CF / DND is paying Logistik in dollars for each point used. Granted the member (or cadet) doesn't see the cost, but the bean counters in Ottawa do as it is indeed coming out of the operating budget. Ergo, tracking (however your Corps wishs to do that) to ensure there is no abuse is smart, but required, just as it is for anything the Crown eventually ends up covering the costs for. 



> The direction we've had in the Atlantic provinces is not to pursue any recovery of costs for cadet uniforms.  Given that we are allocated enough points with Logistik to kit out every cadet who joins and handle as-needed replacements, there's little purpose in recovering uniform parts to keep in inventory anyway.  I've never seen wilful damage to a cadet uniform, but I've seen a few sartorial crimes committed with irons!



Granted, that is the standard; however there are always exceptions to the rule when a monetary recovery for wilful abuse may be reuired. As an example I cite, "but I gave it to my friend to use as part of his Halloween costume and he gave it back like this (with spray paint "camo" all over it)." I have seen worse than accidental death by iron shiney-pants syndrome. We've also had a case where the cadet was issued all the kit (brand new kit I might add), never to return again. Recovery action was pursued for these items; as it is our responsibility to the taxpayer to do so.

I agree, that it is not the norm, but it is the exception.


Edited to insert an example.


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## Disenchantedsailor (16 May 2007)

with logistikcorp its very difficult to abuse the system, each mbr is granted thier points, once they're granted they're gone as fare as the department is concerned, and there are caps for each item avail. i.e 1 pair of ankle boots per annum and the like.


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## armyvern (16 May 2007)

ArtyNewbie said:
			
		

> with logistikcorp its very difficult to abuse the system, each mbr is granted thier points, once they're granted they're gone as fare as the department is concerned, and there are caps for each item avail. i.e 1 pair of ankle boots per annum and the like.



Well,

True to an extent. This same thing applies in the RegF for individuals, but those in Clothing/QM (ie looking after demanding stock for issue etc)have the ability to order from Logistik without using points. They order for a Unit, not an individual. We're unlimited.


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## Disenchantedsailor (16 May 2007)

tis true, I was going from the perspective of individual mbr's abusing the system. Which right about now I wish I could (it's hard going from Navy to Army on a Navy base, they just don't have all the scale kit I need)


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## armyvern (16 May 2007)

ArtyNewbie said:
			
		

> tis true, I was going from the perspective of individual mbr's abusing the system. Which right about now I wish I could (it's hard going from Navy to Army on a Navy base, they just don't have all the scale kit I need)



They may not stock it, but it is their _job_ to order it on your behalf if you are entilted to it by the Scale. Don't let them tell you any different.


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## surgite-AC (29 Jun 2007)

Cadets are never required to pay for damaged uniforms, as long as you did intentionally damage it.


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## armyvern (30 Jun 2007)

surgite-AC said:
			
		

> Cadets are never required to pay for damaged uniforms, as long as you did intentionally damage it.



As has already been duly noted in this thread numerous times, but thanks for reiterating ....


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## quadrapiper (14 May 2008)

Anyone have any ideas on bulk-ordering kit for cadets, outside of the stuff good ol' Unicorp has on-line as available for bulk issue? Is there a paper-based workaround?

The screaming inefficiency of ordering and waiting for average-size items (from a unit Sup O point of view...) is almost equalled by the clunky, smarter-than-you-are online individual order interface. I can't just order six pair of 7336 pants, replacing issued stock... wastes Stores' time, and the cadet is often without a uniform for two or three weeks.


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## Disenchantedsailor (14 May 2008)

From what I understand, and this is going back a wee bit here but units are not "entitled" to stock kit so there should be no issue of replacing stocked kit, being no DA entitilement for it never existed. The problem with mass ordering from logisticorp is they are all individual SCA items. The way the process is supposed to work on paper is you enrol a cadet, size the cadet then order thier kit, even if it takes a few weeks (I have never had an item take more than 5 days) to get there. That of course brings up other issues, like what am I supposed to size from and on and on.  my 2 cents


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## armyvern (15 May 2008)

quadrapiper said:
			
		

> Anyone have any ideas on bulk-ordering kit for cadets, outside of the stuff good ol' Unicorp has on-line as available for bulk issue? Is there a paper-based workaround?
> 
> The screaming inefficiency of ordering and waiting for average-size items (from a unit Sup O point of view...) is almost equalled by the clunky, smarter-than-you-are online individual order interface. I can't just order six pair of 7336 pants, replacing issued stock... wastes Stores' time, and the cadet is often without a uniform for two or three weeks.



Cadet comes in, decides he's going to stay and join ... you size him one week ... his stuff should be in the next. Contracted delivery time is 5 days max in Canada. If it's taking longer than that habitually ... you should be drafting up a "non-compliance complaint" and send to your supporting Base Supply activity ... so they can address the overdue deliveries via PWGSC with the contractor.


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## Neill McKay (15 May 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Cadet comes in, decides he's going to stay and join ... you size him one week ... his stuff should be in the next. Contracted delivery time is 5 days max in Canada. If it's taking longer than that habitually ... you should be drafting up a "non-compliance complaint" and send to your supporting Base Supply activity ... so they can address the overdue deliveries via PWGSC with the contractor.



Just for certainty, is five days the standard for cadet uniforms or only for CF uniforms?


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## quadrapiper (15 May 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Cadet comes in, decides he's going to stay and join ... you size him one week ... his stuff should be in the next. Contracted delivery time is 5 days max in Canada. If it's taking longer than that habitually ... you should be drafting up a "non-compliance complaint" and send to your supporting Base Supply activity ... so they can address the overdue deliveries via PWGSC with the contractor.


_Five days?_ That's happened twice, out of fifty-odd orders this year. I'll be looking into this non-compliance business for next year!


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## Acer Syrup (16 May 2008)

When I was a cadet, you had to fill out an LTD Form (Lost, Theft, or Damage form)


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## Neill McKay (17 May 2008)

Acer Syrup said:
			
		

> When I was a cadet, you had to fill out an LTD Form (Lost, Theft, or Damage form)



Cadet uniforms used to be accounted for through the CF supply system: the corps or squadron drew them from base stores and issued them to the cadets, with the whole lot of it still on the corp or squadron's distribution account.  Today they are ordered directly from Logistik Unicorp and only accounted at the corps or squadron level.


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