# Trouble with the Neighbours



## pbi (30 Apr 2005)

General Hillier had   (and has...) an excellent relationship with the US Army. I know from my own experience that when I reported to the HQ of CJTF76 in Bagram, Gen Hillier was still remembered with respect and fondness by very senior US folks there for his excellent leadership of ISAF V. I would be very, very surprised to hear that the CDS or other Gens with recent op experience would have willingly made this decision. I am much more inclined to believe that it has political origins, rooted in the hypocritical and sanctimonious fear that we are "cosying up" too much. No wonder we have difficulties with the US. It makes my skin crawl.

Maybe its time we returned to the days of Op APOLLO and get back into the game as a respected partner rather than whiling away our days in K-Town working for a multi-national clown act. (Sorry-I'm being unfair: I can't really comment directly on ISAF VII, but ISAF VI was The Big Top with Bozo and Boffo leaping all over the place...) I look forward to our total TOCA from ISAF to OEF.

Cheers,


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## Teddy Ruxpin (30 Apr 2005)

> ISAF VI was The Big Top with Bozo and Boffo leaping all over the place



God, you can say that again!   My opinion of a number of armies was completely changed by ISAF VI.   Realizing that the Franco-German Brigade was EUROCORPS "entry force" and (worse) that the Belgian Para-Commandos were regarded as the "elite" designed to be first inserted into an operation, their lack of ability came as a huge shock - especially after being raised on stories from old 4 CMBG guys about how great the Germans were.   Needless to say, I won't serve with a multi-national (European) unit again if I can avoid it.   HQ ISAF (and KMNB) was a brutal gong show after Hillier left and they were very lucky not to have had soldiers killed through incompetence.

The Europeans always thought the UK, US and Canada were "up to something" anyway...

TR


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## KevinB (30 Apr 2005)

pbi said:
			
		

> I look forward to our total TOCA from ISAF to OEF.
> 
> Cheers,



YOU AND EVERY SOLDIER IN THE CF...


FWIW Reserve Augmentees are showing up for work Monday to start pre-pre-pre training. 

   It is my understanding (and I could be wrong) that some will be offered DS Mirage, some a choice of guaranteed DS Mirage - or taking a chance continuing on trg with the Bn to have a chance to go on TF 1/06, and if cut will still have guaranteed employment sweeping the 1VP lines    - and some being told flat out sorry beat it punk.


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## paracowboy (30 Apr 2005)

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> God, you can say that again!   My opinion of a number of armies was completely changed by ISAF VI.   Realizing that the Franco-German Brigade was EUROCORPS "entry force" and (worse) that the Belgian Para-Commandos were regarded as the "elite" designed to be first inserted into an operation, their lack of ability came as a huge shock - especially after being raised on stories from old 4 CMBG guys about how great the Germans were.   Needless to say, I won't serve with a multi-national (European) unit again if I can avoid it.


seconded. From what I saw in ISAF 0, I have no faith in any military from Europe except the Brits. Actually, from what I've seen in Bosnia, several exchanges, and Kabul, I have no faith in any military that isn't the US, the UK, Australia, or New Zealand. Bloody horrific!


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## Teddy Ruxpin (30 Apr 2005)

Reading your post made me think again...  After Bosnia and HQ IRF(L), I found that the Europeans weren't (with some exceptions) much better back then either...  I worked hand in glove with the Yanks on APOLLO and there was no comparison, despite some minor quibbles...  Someone (PBI?) used the term "Eurotourists" to describe ISAF VI - and that about sums it up.



> It is my understanding (and I could be wrong) that some will be offered DS Mirage, some a choice of guaranteed DS Mirage - or taking a chance continuing on trg with the Bn to have a chance to go on TF 1/06, and if cut will still have guaranteed employment sweeping the 1VP lines   - and some being told flat out sorry beat it punk.



That would make sense, although I am now out of this loop.  All will depend on how many get off the bus....

Cheers,

TR


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## KevinB (30 Apr 2005)

German patrol policy - if you gte rocketed or shit simply avoid the area and hope they shot at someone else...  :

 Having been an unfortunate participant in a Multi-National op I can say I was suprised none of us died to to incompetance, cowardice or general stupidity on behalf of the EuroRental Army.

 We had a Hungarian "ParaCommando" OC leave the incident to eat supper and left my boss (a Capt) in charge - we where the only two Canucks around...  so much for European professionalism (I could go on but this is an open board, secondly I doubt anyone want to see a huge 4 page diatribe witten by me on the Europeans).


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## Teddy Ruxpin (30 Apr 2005)

Lived it every day for six and a half months, brudda.  The smell of cooked cabbage is enough to send me into orbit.

I could go on forever, too - at the Brigade, we had the Georgians doing camp guard over the election.... 

Maybe a new thread:  "Dumb S**t I've Seen European Armies Do"... :


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## paracowboy (30 Apr 2005)

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> Maybe a new thread:   "Dumb S**t I've Seen European Armies Do"... :


Italian carabinieri officer standing in his skivvies (skin-tight thong) blow-drying his hair, when I'm sent to fetch him for confirmatory orders for an Operation his "troops" are vital to. (My eyes!    )"I'll be there as soon as my hair is done."  :


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## Britney Spears (30 Apr 2005)

> secondly I doubt anyone want to see a huge 4 page diatribe witten by me on the Europeans



Well sheesh why do you think we're here?  Change the names and call them Granovians if you want, but out with it already.


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## enfield (30 Apr 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> I doubt anyone want to see a huge 4 page diatribe witten by me on the Europeans).



Yes we do. 



			
				Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> Maybe a new thread:  "Dumb S**t I've Seen European Armies Do"... :



I second Teddy and Brit's motion, a new thread is in order.


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## Infanteer (30 Apr 2005)

Done.


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## Teddy Ruxpin (30 Apr 2005)

OK, opening round:

We shut down downtown Kabul around Chicken Street two weeks after a hand grenade attack aimed at foreigners so the French Defence Minister's boyfriend  could buy a carpet! This was a complete operation:  surveillance, route blockages, increased patrols, the whole bit!

Lest there be confusion, the Minister is female...


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## KevinB (30 Apr 2005)

[rant on] * portions edit for OPSEC

 We are tasked to provide Close Protection for CF EOD pers and CF INT w/ local source.  Firstly the mission racetracks in CAMP for five hours while the EURO MNB gets its act together - then we hold in location (CAMP) while waiting for the MNB to set up a cordon - then when we get info the cordon is set we roll to the front gate and some Yahoo asks me if we are with the "source" I kinda ignore him and he asks again - I direct him to our Capt.  Turns out he is a Norwegian Col (who knew...) anyway he held the Multi's at the Camp gate waiting for us...  -- while we where waiting for them to set a cordon...  
  Right...

Then after another co-ord (read dogfuck) we set off in convoy with the bozo patrol (mixed Hungarian/Beglian Company)

 All of 500m past the gate we get halted by the local SS (Afghan Secret Service - but make no mistake then are the nail pulling types) - they want to speak to the source (go figure: they want the bomb to sell) After another Goatfuck some clown (read EuroCorps Senior Officer) agrees to let them in to the sources house first.

 We get to the site - wait for 45min in a line down a road while the Clown Patrol attempts to set up a Cordon while an America Platoon takes over from a B Coy 1VP LAV that was watchign the site...

Cordon Set -- or is IT

Now I dont know about you but a US/UK/Canadian cordon actually means CORDON - not line'ish of people who may be vaguely understood as soliders sitting around smoking and joking and not stopping traffic in or out...

Anyway we learn this is what the Europeans consider a cordon and that is what we are getting...

2hrs pass the Afghan SS is looking in the tgt house...

They cant find it (the bomb)

 We take source, CF Inf goumbah (dont get me started) and Int dudes 3VP Close Protection soldier to the house.

Wrong house - our bad...  The Hungarian Maj had been in a such a hurry to take over he never got a ground brief and told the American to watch the wrong house  :

 So after a discussion with the Brass Gong (Norwegian Col [he's here why?], Hungarian Maj, Belgian Capt, US Lt, Brit Capt [still unsure why he was there other than seeing how F'd up ISAF was] and a slew of other Euro bozo's - total rank 1 Col, 6 Maj, 4 Capt.  Somehow the Norwegian Col seems to think I know whats going on (okay I have a beard, no rank, C8SFW with wizzies and pistol) he asks my opinion - which I give  ^-^
 anyway no one seems to have a better idea so...
-- later my Capt wonder why I got asked and not him -- we figured that Col Norgie decided hey ask the SF guy  :

however the Afghan SS have already come back and bring the bomb in the street  :blotto:

more stupidity 

 its takign a while for the CF EOD team to do this thing in so the Hungarians are tired and partialy collapse the cordon to eat  ??? - their OC goes as well and leave my Capt running the show (the other officers seem to have faded off when the novelty of the bomb wore off..)

Bomb disarmed (16 hours after we found out about the mission)

 Everyone leaves - leaving the Canadians with a BOMB - so we have to run shotgun for the EOD team all over hells half acre to the NATO bomb site --

 Even better when OC B tried to run the mission himself he was shot down by the Brass Bozo's as the CF did not have an AOR...
So they got their rental armies to try to do it - yet still stuck us holding the bag when they got bored.


[rant off]

I have more...


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## Britney Spears (30 Apr 2005)

> -- later my Capt wonder why I got asked and not him -- we figured that Col Norgie decided hey ask the SF guy  Roll Eyes



Funny, this never showed up on any of your bi-weekly diatribes on non issued kit......


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## KevinB (30 Apr 2005)

;D  I saved some secrets...


 Or even better the Belgain Para's drug raid!

Now keep in mind some GENIUS in NDHQ decided that instead of sending an extra 20 031's from Canada to do OP duty we decided to cut the #'s and use foreign troops to do the Camps OP's..
  - that testifies to the stupidity of some CF Brass but I digress.

Now you wonder what Belgian Para's and drug raids have in common

Some fo you probably think I am going to tell you of a multinational drug raid...

and I sort of am  

 Unfortunately I cant give to much background due to OPSEC concerns about the OPS and the manning etc.

But anyway Steve (a buddy) was doing a rotation as an OP liason NCO and went up to see how they where doing  ;D

Whatcha think Steve found - well a PARTY     complete with booze and drugs - plus guns etc... 
Seems the Paras decided to cut loose with a little Weed, some Hash and maybe a few other illegal Narcotics - plus Beer and Hard Liquor.

 Now if they only had hookers Steve might have stayed - I mean who has a party without Hookers  ???

Needless to say there was a small adjustment in personnel in the Belge contingent   ;D


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## GO!!! (30 Apr 2005)

let me guess - they sent hookers?


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## Teddy Ruxpin (30 Apr 2005)

OK, here goes (and I remember both KevinB's op and the drug thing all too well... gong show all round):

Some (non-operational) stuff from Camp Warehouse:

1.  Georgians watching DVDs while on sentry.

2.  The French Major who cocked his pistol and fired it THREE times into the unloading bay.

3.  The Slovak officer who nearly died of alcohol poisoning at HQ ISAF (in fact, he was clinically dead at the hospital).

4.  Three French soldiers caught drunk downtown, visiting one of the more notorious establishments (yes, they're in Kabul too).

5.  Waiting 1.5 hours OUTSIDE the Warehouse gate (in a soft-skinned vehicle) because the Germans were running an exercise.

6.  Four days without food of any description (late Jan 05).  Thank God for care packages!  Three days without potable water too...

7.  17 "bars" on CW ("Cocktail Party au Sunshine Bar")...  Need I say more?

8.  Having Romanian MPs in the neighbouring tent and listening to them party all night - every night.

9.  Spanish unwilling - for over a month - to fly anyone but Spaniards in their helicopters.

10.  The Turkish Brigadier's new marble office floors - three days after taking command.

I have a number of war stories much like KevinB's, but will have to think about what I can post here.  Bloody gong show...

TR


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## KevinB (30 Apr 2005)

More Hungarian Professionalism
and a pictorial history  
 Out for a ride (and you wondered WHY the other contigents did not like us poaching their AOR's)  We see a Hungarian Platoon stooped by the road -I swear they left the gate and stopped at the first tea shop they could find.







 We do our little thing and come back 4 hours later - the same platoon is at the same site    Still having TEA.

Next: night patrol down the Jowz Valley (infamous from the Sgt Short / Cpl Beerenfenger mine attack)






 Now I don't know about you but I always tend to pay attention a wee bit more at night.  Coming down around one of the little towns (the 3" wide road with the lovely walls on each side)





AND WHO DO WE SEE?

a Hungarian Platoon bedded down for the night (on Patrol MY ASS) - there is one guy manning the PKM MG up on a GWagon (they had the useful version where you could look around or mount stuff to...)  he's half asleep - I figured we'd get stitched any day when he woke up and saw people approaching...


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## 54/102 CEF (30 Apr 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> More Hungarian Professionalism
> and a pictorial history
> Out for a ride (and you wondered WHY the other contigents did not like us poaching their AOR's)   We see a Hungarian Platoon stooped by the road -I swear they left the gate and stopped at the first tea shop they



Reserves .......... I'd start training them as they are probably all we'll ever see of the next 5000 regulars for quite some time as the idiots on Parliament Hill who send the CF overseas have this nasty habit of sending the leg units out to the line and attritting them down to zero.

Everyman an infantryman and every weapon pointed outside the perimeter


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## Infanteer (30 Apr 2005)

Snit about Reserves?  What are you talking about?


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## KevinB (30 Apr 2005)

WTF - The pic is me and a buddy with an SUV - I was just mocking myself...


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## Scoobie Newbie (1 May 2005)

I love these stories.


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## paracowboy (1 May 2005)

CFL said:
			
		

> I love these stories.


they scare the hell out of me. These are the people we're supposed to expect backing us up?


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## Scoobie Newbie (1 May 2005)

I laugh when I'm scared.


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## Chainsaw (1 May 2005)

Glad I live in Canada with an Armed Forces, while more run-down than some, that is actually worth joining


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## pbi (1 May 2005)

I second these sads tales of ISAF multi-national incompetence, and then some. Once Canada handed over control of ISAF, it fell in the ditch. A few new meanings for the acronym, developed during ISAF VI by the maladjusted ISAF LO team up at CJTF76:

ISAF= I'm Scared And Frightened;

ISAF= I'm Such A F*ckwit;

ISAF= I Suck At Fighting; and

ISAF: I Shop AFghanistan.

The sooner we are working for OEF, the better.

Cheers.


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## oyaguy (1 May 2005)

I'm kind of curious about these stories. Are these foriegn forces just that unprofessional? You would think the Belgium Paratroopers would at least be a cut above the rest?


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## TCBF (1 May 2005)

"Now if they only had hookers Steve might have stayed - I mean who has a party without Hookers?"

Pussy Europeans - that's who.   Probably a small group of their hockey players was what you saw. ;D


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## Canadian Sig (1 May 2005)

On roto 0 the sigs in the rover section used to do lots of driver taskings for the brass at warehouse. One day two of us were tasked to drive/support an eng MWO who was involved witht the demining ect. We were out in the  middle of nowhere heading out to a range that they used to blow up uxo's ect and this MWO has us stop and search two locals pushing wheelbarrows through the desert. Turns out that the locals had explosives sstolen from the range (and no doubt heading for sale). So we called in to ask for some support but it seems that because we are in the French AOR we have to wait for them to help us or give our QRF permission to come to give us a hand. The French decided that it was up to them to come and take over custody of the locals so after about an hour of "it's not my job" they decide to send their own QRF. 3 hours later (4 or more in total) we finaly saw some French troops.


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## paracowboy (1 May 2005)

my undermanned section beng sent back out after an 8 hour patrol to protect a platoon of Germans looking for their missing UAV. Yeah. 6 of us to provide security for 30+ Germans, because they were scared. They couldn't be bothered to knock on doors, or look for themselves. They wanted us to provide a cordon for them while they waited for sunrise, napping in their vehs.
Shut that down pretty quick.


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## Canadian Sig (1 May 2005)

Cleaning out the towers at warehouse after the Germans abandoned their posts ( because they were cold ) only to find them full of empty beer cans.


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## PPCLI MCpl (1 May 2005)

The look of utter disbelief after we told the Czechs we were working with that we don't beat Gypsies in our AOR.


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## Teddy Ruxpin (1 May 2005)

OK, here goes â â€œ skirting the bounds of OPSEC:

Kabul, October 2004

I get a call from â Å“Tonyâ ? a contractor with whom we'd done some work in past.   Tony says that he's just seen a UN vehicle stopped by the Intercontinental Hotel and the occupants forced out of their vehicle at gunpoint.   They were then loaded into a Black Toyota Surf, which Tony was following at a discrete distance.

One of the guys sprints down to the operations centre while we keep Tony on the phone.   By ranting and raving, he manages to get a Dutch AH-64 (Apache) airborne (the Dutch were actually pretty good and could be very aggressive).   The Apache picks up the Toyota immediately and tracks it to a house in the NW part of Kabul.   (Apache capabilities are public knowledge)

The Apache begins to orbit the house and Tony gets the wave-off.

All is good, right?

Wrong.   ISAF gets involved.   The Afghans are to run this... â Å“Second rowâ ?, blah, blah, blah...

ISAF orders the Apache away from the scene, for reasons no one understands.   The Dutch are livid, but ISAF insists. The house is left unmonitored while the Kabul City Police argue who is going to run the show (although some of us suspected that there was â Å“something elseâ ? going on with them).   Does ISAF put in a cordon?   No.   Is surveillance laid on?   No.   Do they do ANYTHING?   Nope...

Three hours later, the KCP moves in â â€œ no sign of a Toyota, no sign of hostages...nothing.   Gee what a surprise.

The result?   Three poor people were held for over a month, with absolutely no support from ISAF and no action.   I happened to lead preparations for the â Å“military optionâ ?, which (thankfully) didn't involve ISAF forces (except on the periphery).   The mismanagement, prevaricating, indecision, and lack of operational security was breathtaking to behold.   I still shake my head at some of the HQ ISAF briefings I had to attend.   The "other agencies" I became involved with quickly refused to speak with anyone from ISAF or from a European country and confined themselves to planning with the Canadian (me) and the Brit (for obvious reasons).   ISAF appeared to be more concerned with the Public Relations angle than anything else.

In the end, they conducted their own direct action within the confines of Kabul (and the ISAF AOR) and the hostages were freed...   ISAF was cut completely out of the operation and there was much European bitterness as a result...   :'(



			
				Canadian Sig said:
			
		

> Cleaning out the towers at warehouse after the Germans abandoned their posts ( because they were cold ) only to find them full of empty beer cans.



Say it isn't so!!


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## paracowboy (1 May 2005)

ISAF 0, first patrol in our AO. The Germans are 'leading' us around to get us familiarized with it. They get lost.
They'd never dismounted before. They'd never left the two MSRs. They'd never done a night patrol.


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## pbi (1 May 2005)

> Wrong.  ISAF gets involved.  The Afghans are to run this... â Å“Second rowâ ?, blah, blah, blah...



This approach used to make me sick. It was ISAF-speak for "let's do nothing". It was particularly evident during the preparations to support the national Hajj (the religious pilgrimage to Mecca) and during the Oil Crisis when the highway to the east of Kabul was closed, blocking all POL supplies for both ISAF and CJTF76. I got tired (and quite embarassed..) of trying to explain this inertia to the folks in CJTF76, who were very much in the more dynamic "take action" mould. The "second row" approach ideally suited the indolent EuroCorps attitude.

Cheers.


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## Matt_Fisher (1 May 2005)

Good to see that the Europeans are pretty standard in their operations procedures as we had similar experiences with them in Iraq.

The first tip off as to what it was going to be like wrking with the Europeans was when my company was attached to 2 Bn. 25th Marine Regiment to assist in the handover of the Nasiriyah AOR to the Italians in late June 2003.   As the Italians were moving into our compound, we were having a conersation with a group of them, one of which was grossly obese (probably weighing around 270 lbs) and he proceeded to inform us that his unit (an Italian mountain infantry/Alpinei) was "Elite Infantry".   Coming from him, it was more humorous than anything.

Then in Sept. when 1st Marine Division was finishing the handover of the Babil province to the Multi-National Division under the command of the Poles we got out taste of more European excellence in military professionalism at Camp Babylon.   After having been dispatched on QRF patrols numerous times to investigate shots coming in from the perimeter guard posts (which the Poles were manning) only to find that they were shooting at stray dogs.   Despite numerous liasons between our command staff and the Poles to try and resolve these incidents, the Poles would continue to have sporadic weapons discharges from their posts.   

When the Poles weren't shooting at dogs or trash or whatever they fancied shooting at, the guards we had to work with as part of our interior security duties (Our company was charged with providing the security detail for the 1st Marine Division and 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Headquarters).   It was acceptable for the Poles to be lounging around their headquarters building which neighbored ours, often napping in the bushes behind their building, or or leaning up against the building smoking and bsing with each other, totally oblivious to their surroundings.

The best was when 2 members of our company went exploring around what should have been a secure hq for the Poles.   They walked straight in, without any challenge from the guards, nosed around the various offices, and proceeded to walk to the roof where a sight beyond belief scarred them for life.   On the rooftop patio of the Poles headquarters building was a group of about 20 overweight and late middle-aged Poles clad in their Euro-Speedo type underwear all dancing and jamming out to techno music that was blaring from a boombox.   No women were present.  The 2 Marines promptly left, despite inviting gestures from the Poles to come and join the party.

About the only thing that really motivated the Poles was the KBR catered mess hall.   They'd start to line up outside the dining facility 30-45 minutes before it opened everyday.


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## pbi (1 May 2005)

This latest post by Matt reminds me of a further example of this style of non-leadership. My partner in the ISAF LO team was an RAF officer. He related to me that a fellow RAF type had been given a spot running a shift in the ISAF TAOC (Tac Air Ops Centre) at ISAF HQ Kabul. Frustrated and sickened with the general air of incompetence, laziness and sluggishness, the Brit gave his staff a bit of a "verbal motivation" to get them working at the sort of pace one would expect in an operational HQ. He was met with sullen resistance, and the Chief of the TAOC took him aside and told him that he had to "stop pressuring" the TAOC staff as they were used to "working at a European pace".

I could go on an on but I won't-Teddy Ruxpin and anybody else here who had any dealings with ISAF VI knows exactly what I mean. I am careful, by the way, to distinguish between the good work by our Canadians in TFK (most of whom did not work directly for ISAF) and the clown act down at the Military Sports Club grounds where ISAF had its cafes--er, sorry--HQ..

Cheers


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## Canadian Sig (1 May 2005)

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> Say it isn't so!!



  Fraid so. We provided them with hunter heaters but they could'nt be bothered to fuel them so they burned wood in them until they were un-usable. Then one evening one of our cooks glances up at the nearest tower and realizes nobody is there. Turns out that the germans tasked with guarding the Canadian annex got cold and decided to go home to their own side of the camp (leaving us totaly un-guarded). The next morning the sigs were tasked to man and clean the towers and we found piles of empty beer cans and even  a few empty scnaps (sp?) bottles. Cant say I was suprized. This is the same Germans who "warning shot" a 14 years old outside of our wire one night on roto 0.


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## Infanteer (1 May 2005)

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> (the Dutch were actually pretty good and could be very aggressive).



So are we keeping the Dutch on the "Armies I would work" with side, along with the Brits, Aussies, NZ, and Americans?   I had the same decent experiences working with them on SFOR, but it was Infantry guys.


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## Teddy Ruxpin (1 May 2005)

Hmmm.  I'm not sure.  I have not been impressed with Dutch staff officers - in SFOR, IRF(L) or ISAF.

However, their Apache crews are almost entirely American trained and reflect a US Army mentality.  In ISAF, they had their own pipeline to CJTF-76 that they used to good effect - on at least one occasion contrary to ISAF direction.  I'll say that I thought the Apaches were very good, and leave it at that!

Cheers,

TR


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## Yeoman (1 May 2005)

wow, hearing these stories and some of the stories I hear from the boys out there right now makes me feel almost kinda glad that I'm not out there right now. I mean I thought the MO boys I knew from roto 0 were just making up stuff to make them sound hard, but jesus.
Greg


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## Teddy Ruxpin (1 May 2005)

Canadian Sig said:
			
		

> Fraid so. We provided them with hunter heaters but they could'nt be bothered to fuel them so they burned wood in them until they were un-usable. Then one evening one of our cooks glances up at the nearest tower and realizes nobody is there. Turns out that the germans tasked with guarding the Canadian annex got cold and decided to go home to their own side of the camp (leaving us totaly un-guarded). The next morning the sigs were tasked to man and clean the towers and we found piles of empty beer cans and even   a few empty scnaps (sp?) bottles. Cant say I was suprized. This is the same Germans who "warning shot" a 14 years old outside of our wire one night on roto 0.



Same as when I was there, although we had the added "benefit" of a Georgian "elite" platoon embedded with the Germans for much of the tour.

Thinking of camp security, Kabul was rocketted 41 times in the first three months of Roto 2.  More than once, rockets impacted very close to Warehouse (50 m in one case).  Never, during my entire time with the French and Germans, did we take to the bunkers or hear an alarm.  We were very lucky...


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## Scoobie Newbie (1 May 2005)

Oh you can't leave us hanging Teddy.  We'd all love to hear about the Georgian's.


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## paracowboy (1 May 2005)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> So are we keeping the Dutch on the "Armies I would work" with side?


yes. But only because their women are so astoundingly hot!


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## Teddy Ruxpin (1 May 2005)

CFL said:
			
		

> Oh you can't leave us hanging Teddy.   We'd all love to hear about the Georgian's.



Well, where to start?

ISAF is filled with "hangers on".  These are countries that supply a tiny number of soldiers in an effort to curry favour with either the US or EU.  Thus, such military luminaries as Macedonia (with their "Leopard Platoon"), Albania, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Croatia, Estonia, etc., have supplied platoons to the Kabul operation.

As part of the so-called "Election Support Force", Georgia sent in an infantry platoon to act as camp security at Warehouse.  They were there for three months and were "sponsored" and trained by Germany.  Rumour had it that the Georgian Minister of Defence personally approved the selection of the platoon's personnel.

I know that there's someone who posts on these forums who has worked closely with the Georgians and has some time for them.  I just didn't see it.  With ancient, battered AK-47s, German camoflage uniforms and a surly, lacadasical attitude, they weren't exactly effective and didn't do much to boost confidence in camp defence.

Led by a German NCO, they would watch DVDs in the guard towers and load up on items in the PX.  Vehicle searches were normally accompanied by shouting from the German "minder" as the Georgians failed to look under vehicles or ignored ID checks.  Part of their national caveats was the restriction of the platoon to the camp perimeter - they never did anything outside.

I don't have any really funny Georgian stories, because they really didn't do much - in common with the rest of what was soon dubbed the "Kalashnikov Brigade".  A great number of ISAF countries were much like the Georgians - there to hoist a flag and to be seen to be contributing.


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## Haggis (1 May 2005)

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> I know that there's someone who posts on these forums who has worked closely with the Georgians and has some time for them.



I worked closely with the Georgians on a NATO exercise outside Tbilisi in 2002.  In fact I was RSM of a multinational infantry battalion, under a Georgian CO, made up of NATO and PfP countries, many named in TR's last post.

I never said I "had time for them" as a fighting force, but I do respect SOME of thier members for, at least, making the attempt to professionalize their army.

We'd been in country about 2 1/2 weeks.  One day the CO came up to me in the dining hall at Camp Viaziani (located next to the Vaziani DPRE camp where we did real world humanitarian medical ops during the ex.) and said he wanted to chat.  His English was actually quite good.  He started with "RSM, do you want to know why my army is so bad?" and enterd into a rant worthy of any old school RCR WO.  Pay, equipment, political interference, corruption, theft, nepotism, cronysim etc etc.  I was floored... not only by the content of his rant but that this officer had the moral courage to let it all hang out to a foriegner.  I'd love to know what happened to him.

Got some funny stories, too...


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## DBA (1 May 2005)

I wonder how much the makeup of these small contingents contribute to their shortcomings. I think you need a certain size of unit and autonomy to build a sense of pride in your work and a professional attitude towards a mission. A smallish group of poorly equipped troops that are reliant on others for everything and have no autonomy of action sounds tailor made to foster mediocrity and apathy.


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## COBRA-6 (1 May 2005)

I kinda wish I didn't read this thread now... lol... I'm going over to work at KMNB in august. I hope it's not 6 months of banging my head against the wall... the guy who's over there currently said the lasse-fair attitude can be very frustrating, also mentioned some force protection "issues"... oh well, better to go in with your eyes open...


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## Matt_Fisher (1 May 2005)

As a caveat to what has been said regarding the Dutch...

We had one experience with the Dutch in Iraq.   1st Marine Division was retrograding into Kuwait in late Sept and our company was doing the convoy escort for the last of the division hq's elements (essentially the last Marine elements in Iraq in 2003, save an ANGLICO platoon that had been attached to the Multi-National Division).   During our retrograde march (the process was divided into 3 sticks of about 90 vehicles each) as we passed through the towns in the Babil province, the Dutch in Diwaniyah were the only forces to come out and have coordinated with us and actually provide an escort through town and have the intersections shut down so that the convoy could roll through unfettered.   Throughout the rest of the MNDs AO we had no such participation by the occupying forces.   Kudos to the Dutch for pulling an all nighter and watching out for the Marines who rolled through town into the 0Dark:Thirty Stupid Hours of the night to ensure we got through their AO ok.     

During my time in Norway in Feb/March of this year I also got to work with the Norwegians.   Despite being a conscript based force, I was really impressed with their professionalism and the pride that they took in their job.   We had a section of Norwegian engineers attached to our platoon and these guys had their s*it wired tight in regard to route, bridge, obstacle recce and clearance etc.   Even doing joint foot patrols with these guys I was impressed as they had their SOPs down (bounding across danger areas, nonverbal communications, securing an area, etc.).

I would have no qualms about working with either the Dutch or the Norwegians at anytime.


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## Britney Spears (2 May 2005)

1) Generally people remember the bad stuff better than the good.

2) They've probably got stories of idiot Canadians/Americans too. See #1. People do stupid stuff, no matter the nationality. I've done stupid stuff(abeit not, to my knowledge, in front of foreign allies). I'm sure someone in another country remembers the dumb Canadian.

3) Take into account cultural differences. European armies, based around a countinental system of recruiting, retention, etc, are focused differently than US/UK/CDN armies. e.g. In Europe, "going overseas" is generally not the principle goal of the army. Why would irt be, when most of them share land borders with potential enemies! Maybe the "overseas" stuff sometimes has to take the backbench. 

Now having said that, most of the stories related above have more to do with systematic leadership/organizational issues than any individual failing. So I think in that regard, we're still ahead of the game.


----------



## Teddy Ruxpin (2 May 2005)

Brit:

You have a point...However:

Not to be overly negative, but (likely in common with PBI) I have very little good to say about the two HQs I worked with and for in Afghanistan - representing (at the brigade level) 17 countries in total.  People narrowly avoided being killed on a number of occasions through sheer laziness and incompetence.  The unprofessional attitude goes far beyond having a different operational focus and is rampant throughout NATO.  The only thing worse I can think of is the UN.

I worked with a number of outstanding individuals from a variety of countries.  I also believe that some nations (including the French, believe it or not) were severely handicapped by working in a multinational environment, as were we.  I too have had few bad experiences with the Nordic nations (the Swedes were outstanding as liaison staff and the Norwegians had an unwieldy battle group that was saddled with the Belgians and Hungarians) and (as I said) had a lot of time for the Dutch helicopter guys.

We have a number of benefits in that we're a professional Army that is (still) part of the most exclusive alliance in the world - ABCA.  We benefit from a common language with the Americans, Brits, Aussies and Kiwis, common operating procedures, a 90 year history of working together and a wide variety of formal agreements covering everything from industrial cooperation to intelligence sharing. We ARE ahead of the game with leadership and organization as a result.

End of rant...


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## KevinB (2 May 2005)

Credit where credit is due

 The DUTCH APACHE's where aggressive - I mean spec fire (off thermal signature) a good couple hundred metres from CJ.
The OP NCO saw brass falling...


I will give the Belgians an A for effort -- patrol leaving CJ (their readiness states where similar to B Coy [I hear collective groans   ] and they where reading when they fired the .50.  Immediately they get a light on the are beside the camp and yell "Contact"...

Nice try - did not work - but nice anyway  :



None of the Euro armies want to work in the dark cause none of them have NV, IR lasers for their weapons, nor are the majority of their vehicle NV capable.  The Hungarians that went and apparently blew their load on PVS-14/MNVG's for the Para-Commando Regt did not get an weapon mounted LAD - so while they can see in the dark they can hit shit.


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## Scoobie Newbie (2 May 2005)

When you say Euro are you including the Brits in that?


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## KevinB (2 May 2005)

No just the spineless continentals


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## Infanteer (2 May 2005)

What is even more disparaging is that tiny Netherlands has Apaches and Leo2s....  :-\


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## a_majoor (2 May 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> None of the Euro armies want to work in the dark cause none of them have NV, IR lasers for their weapons, nor are the majority of their vehicle NV capable.  The Hungarians that went and apparently blew their load on PVS-14/MNVG's for the Para-Commando Regt did not get an weapon mounted LAD - so while they can see in the dark they can hit crap.



I find that astonishing, I can remember when WE didn't have NVGs or other Gucci kit, and still slipped out after dark using the "Mk 1 Eyeball". Simple techniques were taught to observe more effectively in the dark, and shooting techniques like "double tap" and blinking in synchronization with firing (to avoid seeing the muzzle flash and ruining your night vision) were also emphasised.

Spending most of my time on ROTO in Banja Luka and VK I managed to avoid most of the nonsense, although watching the Carabirini at the Banja Luka clearing bay was often amusing (in that "oh my God" sort of way....). Weirdly, the weapons incidents in camp were Canadian.....


----------



## Poppa (2 May 2005)

a_majoor said:
			
		

> Weirdly, the weapons incidents in camp were Canadian.....



You can't blame them...things happen when drunk :blotto:


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## pbi (4 May 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> 1) Generally people remember the bad stuff better than the good.
> 
> 2) They've probably got stories of idiot Canadians/Americans too. See #1. People do stupid stuff, no matter the nationality. I've done stupid stuff(abeit not, to my knowledge, in front of foreign allies). I'm sure someone in another country remembers the dumb Canadian.
> 
> ...



Britney: No, sorry-as far as substandard performance by multinationals it goes way deeper than that. I noted with painful frequency the very negative reactions of the folks in the US HQ where I was stationed to the bumbling idleness, procrastination and inertia of ISAF VI. Being a LO for ISAF VI was kind of like having a grotesque idiot relative: you couldn't deny that you were related to them, and sometimes you felt like you had to defend them, but most of the time you just wished you had never met them. Other nations may have such stories about us: all armies havetheir  idiots (as some of the less fortunate posters on Army .ca have richly displayed) but I'll bet you not nearly as many as ABCA folks can speak of. ABCA is not just an exclusive club because of language: it is exclusive because of a cultural outlook about putting mission first and getting the job done. The US folks have a different tack from us "former Imperials" but we can all get to the same place at the same time and know we're there. I challenge you to do that with some of these multi-national horror shows.

Cheers.


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## Slim (4 May 2005)

Reading all of the above posts I'm suddenly very glad I got out when i did.

Slim


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## Haggis (4 May 2005)

The majority of "armies of questionable quality" mentioned in these posts have one thing in common.  They all lack a professional NCO Corps akin to that of the ABCA forces.  Even some NATO arimes cannot grasp the role of professional NCOs.

During the first O group of our Georgian based NATO EX, I was seated at the table with the remainder of the command cell (right next to my Georgain CO).  The DCO, a Greek LCol, took stock of those assembled.  He then said "OK, we start now.  RSM, get coffee for everybody."


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## Britney Spears (4 May 2005)

> Britney: No, sorry-as far as substandard performance by multinationals it goes way deeper than that. I noted with painful frequency the very negative reactions of the folks in the US HQ where I was stationed to the bumbling idleness, procrastination and inertia of ISAF VI. Being a LO for ISAF VI was kind of like having a grotesque idiot relative: you couldn't deny that you were related to them, and sometimes you felt like you had to defend them, but most of the time you just wished you had never met them. Other nations may have such stories about us: all armies havetheir  idiots (as some of the less fortunate posters on Army .ca have richly displayed) but I'll bet you not nearly as many as ABCA folks can speak of. ABCA is not just an exclusive club because of language: it is exclusive because of a cultural outlook about putting mission first and getting the job done. The US folks have a different tack from us "former Imperials" but we can all get to the same place at the same time and know we're there. I challenge you to do that with some of these multi-national horror shows.
> 
> Cheers.



Now I'm getting increasingly into WAG territory here, as my experience with European armies comes nowhere close to that of the other posters here, but I still think it's a bad idea to paint with such broad brushes. ABCA armies are used to working peace support operations in complex multinational settings. We train for it and we have a lot of institutional experience, but I almost start to think the mentality of the excusively expeditionary force is begining to color our world view and we think ops like ISAF are the be-all end-all. To use a colloquial term, maybe the Europeans don't give a rat's *** because they never train for it and (they think) it's just not their day job? Hey, we even have a word, "Dom ops" to referr excusively to homeland defence operations, but homeland defence, as oppose to fighting little bush wars on the other side of the planet, is proably something that (rightly or wrongly) is the primary focus of European armies. Most European nations still have memories of their entire country being demolished twice or 3 times in the last 100 years by invading foreign armies. I don't think most of them join the army to "see the world" or anything like that which we take for granted. 

EDIT: wow, that one takes the cup for the most incoherent post ever....... I should get more sleep.....


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## Edward Campbell (4 May 2005)

I have less recent or useful experience than Britney Spears but I may have some advantage in hindsight.

Thirty-five years ago the United States Army (and Marine Corps) stank; both (and, to a lesser degree, the USN and USAF) were chock-a-block full of unfit, untrained, ill-led, drug addicted troops.  Racial violence was the main reason American soldiers fought.   They were, broadly speaking, useless.

Thirty-five years ago the Germans were adequately trained, just; what they lacked in training, especially at the junior levels, they made up for with an excellent, professional officer corps and a strong, all pervasive sense of national purpose: the defence of Germany against a real, present, danger.

Thirty-five years ago there were only two armies anywhere in NATO Europe (British and Canadian) ready and able to get to their battle potions and meet the expected (East German led) Warsaw Pact attack head on.  We had eight army corps; only one, 1 BR Corps, was ready and able to fight.  Three (I, II and III GE corps) were big, adequately equipped but poorly trained, one (1 NL Corps) was too small, poorly trained and too far away.  Three (1 BE and V and VII US) were perfectly useless â â€œ probably going to do more harm than good.

Some things have changed â â€œ radically.  Led by a General named Starry, amongst a small number of others, the US began, in the 70s, to pull itself up by its own bootstraps.  It was a long, slow, sometimes agonizing process.  Our American friends came to Canada and invited some of us down there to help them plan and implement a huge number of ambitious, even courageous reforms.  I saw parts of it, sometimes close up, over the years, and I read about the outcomes now, in the press and here on army.ca. 

Other armies â â€œ like the British â â€œ had ups and downs but, through it all remained highly professional.

Others, like the Belgians, got no better and, maybe even deteriorated, if what I saw (briefly) in and then heard/read from Rwanda was a good example.

In my view there is nothing _native_ to Americans, Brits and Canadians which makes them superior soldiers.  If there was then the US Army would not have crashed and burned in the '50s and '60s; great armies can â â€œ have â â€œ turned to sh!t and sh!tty armies can reform themselves and become first rate.

Just a reminder than 55, 45, 35, 25 and even 15 years ago we were, generally, looking down our noses at our American friends â â€œ now, I think, we see them as valued, trusted friends from whom we can learn much.  Our admiration for German officers seems to have faded - perhaps as their professionalism has faded due to lack of focus on a clear threat and mission.


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## pbi (4 May 2005)

> He then said "OK, we start now.  RSM, get coffee for everybody."



Interesting. I had a similar experience with a SVK Bde HQ that was in our AO on OP HARMONY in 94. The job of the Bde Sgt Maj there, as far as I could see, was to be a coffee server in the HQ. I never saw an NCO do anything of any importance. I used to bring my CSM to all meetings, as an SOP. The Serbs asked me who was the guy I was always bringing. When I explained who he was, they expressed mystification at why I would bother bringing anybody who was not an officer. I explain that in my company I did not normally make too many important decisions without takling with my CSM first. They didn't get it.

Cheers.


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## Teddy Ruxpin (4 May 2005)

> To use a colloquial term, maybe the Europeans don't give a rat's *** because they never train for it and (they think) it's just not their day job?



I don't think that's it.   It isn't a matter of training, its one of attitude.   As PBI and I can rant about for days, the unprofessionalism was/is rampant.   It's the lack of an operational focus, excessive individuality and an odd sense of superiority that maintains that they're different from everyone else - particularly the Americans.   Add to this an almost breathtaking timidity, micromanagement, excessive focus on rank and status, and national rivalries and you get a outrageously dysfunctional environment.

I honestly believe that these traits would exist regardless of the operational setting.   As one German officer told me, their army has changed dramatically with the end of the Cold War and the peace dividend.   Add to that the inherent "challenges" of a multinational setting and you have a recipe for (at best) inertia or (at worse) tactical and operational disaster.

One short war story to prove my point about differing attitudes.   As I alluded to earlier, I was heavily involved in the efforts to free UN hostages in Nov 04.   As part of this, I worked closely with Allied SF to develop a military option for hostage rescue.   HQ ISAF insisted on pushing the Afghans to "first row" and seriously compromised both operational security and the hostages' lives as a result.

I had to attend nightly meetings led by COS ISAF (MGen rank).   At it, we (I) presented the concept of ops for hostage rescue, all of which ended in the sudden, violent demise of the hostage-takers.   HQ ISAF was aghast and requested that the plan be "revisited" to change the focus whereby the terrorists were captured rather than killed.   They didn't like the "optics" of killing hostage-takers...   Typical European attitude.   In the end, as I said earlier, the operation was executed without ISAF involvement, much to their annoyance.

Cheers,

TR


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## KevinB (4 May 2005)

These are the same people who refused us permission to raid drug and weapon caches, for fear of upsetting the local warlord...

Unfortunately most simply did not give f#$k and where attempting to cruise through their tour, with as minimal riplling of the water as they believed possible.

Don't get me started on Belgian drinking


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## Scoobie Newbie (4 May 2005)

Drinking.  Belgians.  Do tell.


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## KevinB (4 May 2005)

Well lets just say there is a more than a few reasons why they shut the Belgian Mess down...


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## Canadian Sig (4 May 2005)

I was amazed at how much the Germans at warehouse drank. They were always walking around at night hammered and heavily armed.


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## Britney Spears (4 May 2005)

Maybe the Belgians are just getting back at us for Romeo Dallaire.


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## KevinB (4 May 2005)

Firstly I am all for "big boy" rules with drinking - hey I was in Cyprus...

BUT I have a huge problem with anyone on some sort of NTM status drinking.  I just nigling doubt about deploying out the gate with guys loaded with a round up the spout...


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## Scoobie Newbie (4 May 2005)

Having to work with people drunk or high is not cool at all.


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## Britney Spears (4 May 2005)

You see what happens when transport/air movement regs are relaxed? If it wasn't for the devotion and professionalism of our MAMS/Air Movement pers. our contingent will no doubt have become havens for alchohol and drug abuse.


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## KevinB (4 May 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> You see what happens when transport/air movement regs are relaxed? If it wasn't for the devotion and professionalism of our MAMS/Air Movement pers. our contingent will no doubt have become havens for alchohol and drug abuse.


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## Canadian Sig (4 May 2005)

>There were no drugs in Afghanistan.  :


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## Scoobie Newbie (4 May 2005)

Isn't AStan full of poppies?


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## Baloo (4 May 2005)

Pretty sure that was what the roll-eyes was for.


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## Canadian Sig (4 May 2005)

sorry CFL, just being facetious... not that any of the Euros smoked hash or anything.


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## Kal (5 May 2005)

I find that the general relaxation of lack of discipline from the europeans is in direct relation to their culture and work ethic.  While touring France and Belgium on their honeymoon, my sister and her new husband said that the european were very lax and preferred to have fun and not take so seriously their jobs and work.  Some of the shops and restaurants would close 2 hours at a time so the employees can take their lunch breaks and while working their ethic would be just to relax and have fun with what they were doing.  While this may be a positive with the euros being less stressed and enjoying life more, it certainly does not have it's place when circumstances and operation arise that require discipline and their full devotion.


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## KevinB (5 May 2005)

Lets not ignore our own fault and failures as well (sorry I'm planning a book deal gotta keep those quiet   )

 But 99% of them where not for lack of troop drive nor command zeal to go out and monkeystomp some bad guys.


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## pbi (5 May 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> Maybe the Belgians are just getting back at us for Romeo Dallaire.



This is quite possible, since a number of the Belgiques in Camp Julien when I was on ATHENA were Paras. I had heard a number of stories about the animosity between the two contingents, but I don't know for sure as I didn't live in Kabul. Maybe somebody who was there can comment?

Cheers.


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## a_majoor (5 May 2005)

That is a strange attitude to have, especially since the Belgians didn't cover themselves with glory in Somalia either (I have heard some hair raising stories about their treatmant of Somalian captives, but since I don't have documentation, lets just say the rumors are very disturbing).


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## Haggis (5 May 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> Lets not ignore our own fault and failures as well.



You're right, but let's look at this from another perspective:  It takes a lot of self discipline and low level leadership to live within our rules in a place like Camp Julien, Banja Luka Metal Facory or Camp Butmir, particularly when everyone around you is drinking and fornicating like the world will end tomorrow.

Anybody who's spent even one night at BLMF or Butmir has seen the other contingents get way out of hand at the Foundary or the Millenuim Club.

All things considered we aren't too bad in the "Armed Party Animal" department.  Give credit where credit is due.... to the professional NCO Corps.  it's when the Corps doesn't engage that we have alcohol and stupidity incidents occurring.


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## Teddy Ruxpin (5 May 2005)

pbi said:
			
		

> This is quite possible, since a number of the Belgiques in Camp Julien when I was on ATHENA were Paras. I had heard a number of stories about the animosity between the two contingents, but I don't know for sure as I didn't live in Kabul. Maybe somebody who was there can comment?
> 
> Cheers.



PBI - the Belgian Coy assigned to KMNB was from the Para-Commando Regiment (forget which exact coy).

The Belgians were hated on Julien (and someone like Gunner knows even better than I as I wasn't based on Julien either) for a variety of reasons.  First was their liberal alcohol "policy", which manifested itself in a number of incidents (as KevinB alluded to).  Second was the perception, rampant within Recce Sqn and at the Brigade (amongst those who cared), that the Belgians were lazy, did not patrol with any regularity and were very passive, preferring to spend time in the gym.  This wasn't helped by the inertia of the Belgian unit at the airport.  There were a number of other "incidents" (fraternization related) that poisoned the atmosphere between the Canadians on CJ and the Belgian Para Coy.  Finally, 90% of the Belgian staff officers at HQ ISAF were out of their league, including the Chief of Staff.

Finally, to sum myself up, I can verify the stories of the drunken armed Germans.  Watching soldiers staggering around in the dark, waving their G36 (sometimes with rounds up the spout), shouting and singing after a night in the "Sunshine Bar" was very surreal...

We have our problems, but they're nothing in comparison to some other armies.

TR


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## Haggis (5 May 2005)

a_majoor said:
			
		

> although watching the Carabinieri at the Banja Luka clearing bay was often amusing (in that "oh my God" sort of way....).



Did a joint op with the Carabinieri.  Training and competency issues aside, I found it embarressing to simply be in their presence.  They are a PR nightmare, particlualrly if there are even semi-attaractive women within eyesight or earshot.


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## pbi (6 May 2005)

> We have our problems, but they're nothing in comparison to some other armies.



Based on what I've seen, agree 100%. It can be really shocking sometimes. However, we can't smugly sit on our laurels and measure ourselves against the incompetents: we need to keep our eye on the ball and try to get better.

Cheers


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## JBB (6 May 2005)

Intresting thread.  Although I am all for Euro bashing  .  

We have had a few moments of lack of professionalism on operations.  I recall while with UNPROFOR the Brit nick name for CANBAT 2 was CAN"T BAT. As well the poisoning of a SNCO with the 2 PPCLI Battle Group with UNPROFPR also springs to mind.  The lack of leadership which led to the murder of a prisoner in Somalia, which led to the demise of a fine Regiment.  Ahh... and I could go on with the Black Market actives of another Canadian UNPROFOR Bn.  

I have been retired some time now.... But.

A old CSM once told me... Worry about what your own Platoon is doing WO, and I will worry about the Coy...........

Hey just my take.

Have a good one.......


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## Haggis (6 May 2005)

JBB said:
			
		

> A old CSM once told me... Worry about what your own Platoon is doing WO, and I will worry about the Coy...........



Good advice.

I'm sure shenanigans went on during my last tour.   My WO's had two options: either deal with it or conceal it.   Since I trusted my WOs implicitly, I would bet on the former.

However, hard as I tried, my influence over other contingents was limited or non-existent (as was theirs over my troops... thankfully).



			
				pbi said:
			
		

> However, we can't smugly sit on our laurels and measure ourselves against the incompetents: we need to keep our eye on the ball and try to get better.



Bang on, PBI.

We are superior, but only in our own eyes.   Our job is to ensure others see us the same way we do.   Firm, professional, fair and not to be trifled with. :threat:

If you compare our kit, equipment, training and combat experience to, say, the US or the Brits, we will be found wanting.   Compare our cooks, however, and we are GODS!


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## B P (17 May 2005)

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> God, you can say that again!   My opinion of a number of armies was completely changed by ISAF VI.   Realizing that the Franco-German Brigade was EUROCORPS "entry force" and (worse) that *the Belgian Para-Commandos * were regarded as the "elite" designed to be first inserted into an operation, *their lack of ability came as a huge shock * - especially after being raised on stories from old 4 CMBG guys about how great the Germans were.   Needless to say, I won't serve with a multi-national (European) unit again if I can avoid it.   HQ ISAF (and KMNB) was a brutal gong show after Hillier left and they were very lucky not to have had soldiers killed through incompetence.
> 
> The Europeans always thought the UK, US and Canada were "up to something" anyway...
> 
> TR



Have you bin there yourself , are is this what somebody told you ? Most of the things told here are rumours !!! 

I'm one of those (dutch talking) Belgium paratroopers , and ISAF was my 7th mission , how many of you gise dit 7 missions ? Without any problems , no drinking problems , no drug problems , ... as I dit ?
The soldier that shot himself in the foot , wasn't that a 'profesionel' Canadian soldier ?  :
And who was that smart to send us out in an 'Iltis' , to try to stop a truck loaded with 800kg TNT ? :
Who broke in , in the mess , drunk (!) , to steel more alcohol ? Canadian ! :
Everyday the Belgium mess was open , it was full with Canadian people , try to get drunk ! :
Who was send out , the day of the elections and who stayed in CJ ? Who was send out to colect the amunition in the mountains ? To gard the carbomb and the roadsidebomb ? Who was laisy (are however you write it) !
And I can go on and on !
And when was there a drugraid ? I can't remember any drugraid , are it has to be with the frenchtalking , 2nd group !

Think , befor you talk !!!

Yes , some of us made mistakes , just like some of you made mistakes ! Thats why we 're human , those who doesn't do anything , won't make mistakes !!!

What were the real problems some of you had with the Belgiums ? None ?!

I ' ve made a few Canadian friends out there , with who I still have contact by e-mail , so I don't think we (Belgiums) are all that bad ! >

Sorry for my bad English !  ;D


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## Britney Spears (17 May 2005)

B P:

Relax, we already use 99% of the boards here  to whine/complain about dumbkopfs  in our own Canadian army, so we like to share the love amongst all our allies. 

Most of the above thread is about leadership aspects of ISAF anyway, not about the individual soldiers.


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## B P (17 May 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> B P:
> 
> Relax, we already use 99% of the boards here   to whine/complain about dumbkopfs   in our own Canadian army, so we like to share the love amongst all our allies.
> 
> Most of the above thread is about leadership aspects of ISAF anyway, not about the individual soldiers.



Aahhh , OK , it's forgiven !  >

I had to write it of me !


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## Britney Spears (17 May 2005)

Heh, well I knew one of you would show up and balance things out a little eventually.

Welcome to the board, Para (and sorry about Romeo Dallair).


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## pbi (17 May 2005)

> Welcome to the board, Para (and sorry about Romeo Dallair).



Excuse me? This was humour, right? Surely you haven't been appointed to apologize to the Belgian military (or to people who claim to be members of it...) for what you personally interpret the actions of Gen Dallaire to have been? Maybe I missed something here, or perhaps I'm over reacting?

Cheers.


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## Britney Spears (17 May 2005)

> Excuse me? This was humour, right?



Mostly, yes. As I understand, Gen. Dallaire is a bit of a popular punching bag in Belgium, particularly amongst the Paras(and good luck trying to debate it with them). I meant it in the same vein as how we apologize to Americans about Celine Dion. Of course I understand that there is much more to both the Rwanda affair and the music of Ms. Dion than can be summed up in one sentence.  


What good are generals if we can't take cheap shots at them?


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## baboon6 (17 May 2005)

Isn't Allied Rapid Reaction Corps taking over ISAF next year? I presume things would be better run with a mainly British HQ in charge. (Not that I am saying the Brits are the be-all and end-all of soldiering!)


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## B P (17 May 2005)

pbi said:
			
		

> Excuse me? This was humour, right? Surely you haven't been appointed to apologize to the Belgian military (*or to * *people who claim to be members of it*...) for what you personally interpret the actions of Gen Dallaire to have been? Maybe I missed something here, or perhaps I'm over reacting?
> 
> Cheers.



1st bataljon paratroopers , 21st companie ! Yes I'm member of them , what do you want to now more to prove it ?
I now what happend in Ruanda , but I wasn't there , and it wasn't our unit ! Its a shame what happend there , but in every war people get killed , and I'm not gona hate a nation for the mistake(?) of one(?) man ! Like some of you blame the whole Belgium army , cus they had problems with a few men in Kabul ! Didn't you lost 4 man by the mistake of one American Appachepilot ? Isn't it normal that you got an other idee about the American than you dit befor ? But do you have to hate them all cus of that ?
I don't think so , everybody makes mistakes , but when an officer makes them , the consequenses are much bigger ! 

I was only interested for the problems in Kabul ! I was there and I now we dit a pretty good job there , what doesn't mean that I agree with everything that happend there , and specialy the leadership (generally , not only Belgium) !


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## KevinB (17 May 2005)

I'd say 99% of the time I was impressed with the Belgians - going outside the gate with three or four Para's each in an Iltis they had that "don't fuck with us" look down pat.

 The comments I made where specific to events - events that happend.

I could make several portrayals of CF emmebrs that would not cast favourable light either - but the Drug issue in the Palace, and two incidents on patrol that kinda sent off a nerve with me that cast a lot of pale on whole Thats and that weird harold guy that kept calling himself Ramstein (he got repatted quite quick) his pistol ND in the Palace etc.

 (which in hindsight is not fair since I was criticizing others for doing that about another certain event...)

More disgusting was a Canadian (non cbt arms) CSM cutting down or attempting to cut down the Para flag in the camp.


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## B P (17 May 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> I'd say 99% of the time I was impressed with the Belgians - going outside the gate with three or four Para's each in an Iltis they had that "don't **** with us" look down pat.
> 
> The comments I made where specific to events - events that happend.
> 
> ...



The CSM , mister Vay , or something , he was a  :crybaby: ,  he hated us ! And we hated him , but we got a reason for that !

I heared about the story in the Palace , that happend with the second group , the French talking guys , they were send home !
I don't now who that guy 'Rammstein' was , but I'm going to try to find that out ! I think I got an idee who it was ! ;D

I'm going to sleep now , it!s 11:50 in the evening here !
Greetz !


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## Infanteer (17 May 2005)

So, are we making up with eachother now?


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## Britney Spears (17 May 2005)

> So, are we making up with eachother now?



Not sure, I think pbi is still angry at me..... :crybaby:


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## KevinB (18 May 2005)

See even they have trouble with their French  ;D

BP - regarding Vey yup you got that guy nailed - lets just say he was not to popular with us either.  

 I think 95% of the issues I related to where one the rotation from the german Belgians to the French Belgians (sorry if this is not the proper way to refer to the diversity)

 The 1st group even warned us of the impending disaster -- and you Sgt Maj hooked a bunch of us up with your excellent Meindl Boots.


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## Britney Spears (18 May 2005)

> I think 95% of the issues I related to where one the rotation from the *german* Belgians to the French Belgians (sorry if this is not the proper way to refer to the diversity)




Perhaps you mean Dutch?

Is there a Flemish battalion too?


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## Acorn (18 May 2005)

Flemish=Dutch Belgians. Not sure how that works out in their Army.

Acorn


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## Britney Spears (18 May 2005)

I see.


From <a href=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgium#Demographics.2C_language_and_literacy>Wikipedia:</a>

Historically, Belgium has three ethnic communities: Flemings, Walloons and German-speakers, which belonged to Germany until 1918, and three official languages, one for each community, Dutch, French and German. About 60 percent of the country is Dutch-speaking, French is the second most-spoken language (by about 40 percent) and German is spoken by less than 1 percent of the population.

But these figures must be taken with care because the most-recent linguistic census was before 1960, and the mother tongue is not always the same as the language used in public, or in official life. This applies especially to the many minority goups who more or less kept their ethnic identity, the oldest being the Jews, established in Antwerp since the Middle Ages, and various more recent-migrant communites as Italians, Spaniards, Poles, Turks or Moroccans. Within each of those communities, language use varies widely, with parts of each community maintaining their language of origin over generations, other parts moving towards the language of the city of residence. Percentages differ widely between the various migrant groups.

Both the Dutch spoken in Belgium and the Belgian French have small vocabulary differences from the varieties spoken in the Netherlands and France, but are mutually intelligible with their respective neighbouring dialects. Many speak Flemish or Walloon dialects which are often difficult to understand for people from other areas. Other regional languages officially recognised (in Wallonia only) are Champenois, Gaumais, and Picard.

Brussels, the capital, is mostly French-speaking, but officially French-Dutch bilingual. It evolved from a Dutch-speaking place when the Belgian state became independent in 1830 to its current dominantly French character being the capital of the central administration of the federal country.

More than 98 percent of the adult population is literate. Education is required from the age of 6 until the age of 18, but most Belgian students keep on studying until the age of 23. This makes Belgium's education system the second most intensive in Europe, after the United Kingdom's. Nevertheless, in recent years concern is rising over certain forms of illiteracy as 'functional illiteracy'.


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## pbi (18 May 2005)

I  worked  for ISAF VI, but I wasn't in Kabul: I was at Bagram with the US Task Force HQ, CJTF76. I know very little about the individual Belgians in Camp Julien, other than the complaints I heard about them and the Hungarians from various Canadians. I agree that there are probably professional, capable Belgian soldiers, but that certainly was not the impression created in the minds of their hosts. My impression was that the relationship was one of mutual hostility.

My real point, and the area of knowledge that I can speak on with certainty, has been all along about the leadership of ISAF VI: it was hideous and thus the force as a whole did not achieve very much, and not near as much as it could have. And, as I have pointed out on several posts, my opinion was shared as much (probably more...) by the US and Brits, so it really can't be reduced to Canadian narrow-mindedness. One need only draw the parallel to the operation of ISAF VII under the Turks, who replaced the EuroCorps in February: the change of attitude and competence level was noticeable within 24 hours. I gather (from people who stayed on in CFC-A and elsewhere) that ISAF VII is doing a far better job than ISAF VI ever did.

I see now, (as I also said earlier), why the Americans get so frustrated with "Old European" dithering, procrastination and inability to make decisions in a timely manner. I thought it was always just US arrogance and ignorance but now I believe them.

Cheers.


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## B P (18 May 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> I see.
> 
> 
> From <a href=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgium#Demographics.2C_language_and_literacy>Wikipedia:</a>
> ...




You now more about Belgium than I do !  ;D
The history corect !

Flemish = Dutch , but with a litle differend accent then the Netherlands , like Canadian french is differend from French french . 
And yes , we Flemish do not come along with the wallons , they have another kind of mentality (if its the right word) than we do ! And we (1PARA) got the most bad luck , we're the only unit with Flemish and wallon !
We're really 2 differend kind of people ! It's not that worst that we can kill each other , but when possible , we avoid each other ! 
You even notice it in Belgium politics ! Specialy in Brussels (the capital) , there are a lot of problems ! Some areas are Flemish , but most of the people who live there are Frensh talking , but they have to vote in Flemish elections , it's a difficult situation , to dificult to explane (in English) !
And as you say , 60% in Belgium is Flemish , but the Frensh part has the right for half of the belgium mony , and they got less jobs (so they don't bring in as much as we do ) , ... 
In the Flemish part we got much more (trafic)police controle , over 370 Gatso's (fixed speedcamera's) , French part got 12 , so we pay a lot more speeding tickets , ... And the French part get half of it ! And so on ... !
It's just not fair !
They got a good life here !

But for the rest it's a good country to live in , for axample , when we go to the dokter , we get payed most of the bill back (national health service, or how you call it?) , everybody is obliged to pay insurance (for everything) , ... !
In other European country's (and I believe also in America , ...) they don't have those things , you got to be rich there to go to the hospital for an operation ?!

How is it in Canada to live ?


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## George Wallace (18 May 2005)

B P

Canada is in pretty much the same boat so to speak....The Quebecois take up less than 25% of the population and like your Wallons, they seem to want all the benefits  ;D

It sometimes seems as if the Tail is wagging the Dog.

It is curious that many in Canada would like to use Belgium and Switzerland as countries that are Officially Bilingual or Multilingual and proof that Forced Bilingualism will work.  I am sure that you will find that we have very much the same problems as you in that way.  

When it comes to "Photo Radar", Canadians are very paranoid and feel that it is an invasion of their privacy   - perhaps if they wouldn't break the law they would see its merits.   ;D

Of course if you were to come to Canada, you would find the size of the Country much different than Belgium; no driving from one border to the other in a couple of hours.  That results in a large variety of beliefs and cultures to flourish in our culture.


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## B P (18 May 2005)

A little Off-topic maybe , but does somebody of you now a guy Brian ? A big (fat >) guy , think he was a master-corporal , he was in sharge in Queenspalace for a while ! At home he allso was a firefither !
I was gona get his e-mail adres , but I ditn't see him anymore befor I left ! Maybe I can come in contact with him this way ! Are does somebody now how I can get in contact with him ?
Thanks !


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## TangoTwoBravo (18 May 2005)

BP,

Welcome to the board!   I was on a US Army course several years ago and one of my fellow "foreign officers" was a Belgian Armoured Recon officer.   We became good friends and I found that our armies had a lot in common.   As countries we also have several similarities (including having one or two big neighbours).   

When I was in Kabul in 2003 a Belgian company was in charge of security at KAIA.   I had one operation that involved taking a big VIP convoy in and out of the airport several times.   Things went very well and we got excellent tactical and adminstrative support.   During my recce I discovered that the company commander was friends with my old classmate.    Small world.

Cheers,

Iain


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## KevinB (18 May 2005)

B P -Brian R. : bald head size of a small planet.
 He'd be the one your talking about - personally I think you got robbed when they took John HJ out of the OP's.

Edit - John could speak the language and was int he process of beign promoted - so I could never rationalize why they pulled him out...



I sent an email to Brians mil address - but I think he is on Basic Moutnain Ops so not sure how much time they have to check emails.  Cheers


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