# Question regarding university degree, opportunities in the military.



## Sean Murray (17 Feb 2015)

Hello,

I will be completing my undergraduate degree in history, I would like to have a career in the Department of National Defense. I wish to become an intelligence officer but I realize my physical abilities do not permit me to join the Canadian Forces. My question, if applicable here, was about the position of civilian intelligence analyst at DND? I was wondering if anyone knew what were the requirements to enter,  how often DND is looking for people to fill this position, are there internship opportunities, can someone straight out of university apply for the job?

Thank you.


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## RedcapCrusader (17 Feb 2015)

Your best bet for civilian opportunities with the DND is to go to http://www.jobs.gc.ca However, in an Intelligence role, they don't hire civilians off the street. They look for RCMP, CSIS, CSEC, and other police or military experience.


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## Ostrozac (17 Feb 2015)

RedcapCrusader said:
			
		

> Your best bet for civilian opportunities with the DND is to go to http://www.jobs.gc.ca However, in an Intelligence role, they don't hire civilians off the street. They look for RCMP, CSIS, CSEC, and other police or military experience.



That is not true at all. While many of the civis over at CFINTCOM have prior experience, some were hired fresh of the street based on academic credentials. 

But, just like the rest of the public service, DND hasn't been taking many new hires off the street over the last few years. But that extends throughout the entire civil service.


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## Sean Murray (19 Feb 2015)

Thank you for your responses. This might seem like a ridiculous question, but I have searched for an answer on this forum but to no avail.  I was wondering if it would be possible to apply as an intelligence officer, specializing in intelligence analysis, without having to undergo combat and officer training? I am aware of my limitations, I do not have the skills required to be in combat since my fine motor skills are very poor as well as my navigational skills. I also am not the person who is capable of leading others. Those who I have spoken to have told me  intelligence officers, who have specialized in intelligence analysis, work in offices and are not involved in combat related activities at all.  I want to serve in the military, I would like a career that will allow me to put my academic training to use to help make a difference.  I have complete respect for NCM members of the armed forces, but I feel that my qualifications entitle me to the benefits that officers receive. I do not wish to apply as a NCM member, if that were the only option. 

Thank you,

Sean Murray


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## cryco (19 Feb 2015)

officers go through the same vigorous physical training that NCMs go through. There's no avoiding that.


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## DAA (19 Feb 2015)

Sean Murray said:
			
		

> Thank you for your responses. This might seem like a ridiculous question, but I have searched for an answer on this forum but to no avail.  I was wondering if it would be possible to apply as an intelligence officer, specializing in intelligence analysis, without having to undergo combat and officer training? I am aware of my limitations, I do not have the skills required to be in combat since my fine motor skills are very poor as well as my navigational skills. I also am not the person who is capable of leading others. Those who I have spoken to have told me  intelligence officers, who have specialized in intelligence analysis, work in offices and are not involved in combat related activities at all.  I want to serve in the military, I would like a career that will allow me to put my academic training to use to help make a difference.  I have complete respect for NCM members of the armed forces, but I feel that my qualifications entitle me to the benefits that officers receive. I do not wish to apply as a NCM member, if that were the only option.



Simply put, being a "Commissioned" Officer = Leading Others.

Officers

An officer is a leader. From the first day, officers are trained to be responsible for a group of people. They oversee the sailors, soldiers or air personnel in the conduct of their activities - this could be on a base, on board a ship or in the field on exercise or an overseas operation. The educational requirements to be eligible to apply as an officer are higher than those of the Non-Commissioned Member.


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## Sean Murray (19 Feb 2015)

Thank you for your responses, so an officer's responsibility is to lead no matter the setting. If someone could provide testimony from a doctor or psychologist supporting their claim that they were unable to participate in combat training, would that person be allowed to bypass this portion of the training if they were applying for a non combat related position?

Thank you,

Sean Murray


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## LightFighter (19 Feb 2015)

If you get into the military you must complete all courses(including every portion of it) to proceed and be qualified in your trade. If you are unfit physically/medically for all aspects of the military/trade you will most likely be deemed unfit to serve in the military - CFRG and medical staff will be the ones who make the decision though as well as be able to answer medical related questions pertaining to yourself. 


Also, what "Officer benefits" do you believe you are entitled to based on your qualifications? Do you believe that based solely on your education you are entitled to be an officer in the Canadian Armed Forces?


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## cryco (19 Feb 2015)

Sean Murray said:
			
		

> Thank you for your responses, so an officer's responsibility is to lead no matter the setting. If someone could provide testimony from a doctor or psychologist supporting their claim that they were unable to participate in combat training, would that person be allowed to bypass this portion of the training if they were applying for a non combat related position?
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Sean Murray



If someone provided that testimony, then you would effectively be eliminating any chance of getting into the armed forces. You would be supplying proof that you should not be admitted.


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## Sean Murray (19 Feb 2015)

Thank you for your responses. So everyone must complete all the stages of training, no matter their circumstance. In terms of benefits I was just referring to salary. Of course it take more then an education to become an officer, there are plenty of NCM personnel who are excellent leaders. I am sorry if I have come off as being rude or having a sense of superiority. It seems as though the definition of an intelligence officer in the civilian world is slightly different from that in the military community.  Would there be anyone here who has had experience working at DND as a civilian intelligence analyst?


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## Monsoon (19 Feb 2015)

Sean Murray said:
			
		

> Thank you for your responses. So everyone must complete all the stages of training, no matter their circumstance. In terms of benefits I was just referring to salary. Of course it take more then an education to become an officer, there are plenty of NCM personnel who are excellent leaders. I am sorry if I have come off as being rude or having a sense of superiority. It seems as though the definition of an intelligence officer in the civilian world is slightly different from that in the military community.  Would there be anyone here who has had experience working at DND as a civilian intelligence analyst?


I've known and worked with a few geopolitical analysts (I think that may be what you're thinking of - not sure that we have a great many civilian intelligence analysts). These tend to be Master's/PhD types who've done specific research in defence and politics, usually with an internship or prior work experience at a defence department or international organization in the defence realm.


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## jwtg (19 Feb 2015)

Sean Murray said:
			
		

> Thank you for your responses. So everyone must complete all the stages of training, no matter their circumstance. In terms of benefits I was just referring to salary. Of course it take more then an education to become an officer, there are plenty of NCM personnel who are excellent leaders. I am sorry if I have come off as being rude or having a sense of superiority. It seems as though the definition of an intelligence officer in the civilian world is slightly different from that in the military community.  Would there be anyone here who has had experience working at DND as a civilian intelligence analyst?



Not so much superiority as entitlement; in the future, I would caution you to avoid using the word 'entitled,' because, as has been stated, education/a degree does not entitle one to a commission as an officer, nor any of the associated salary and benefits.

Also, we don't _define_ intelligence officer differently- we simply expect intelligence officers, like any officers, to be military leaders, meet universality of service requirements, common enrollment medical standard, etc.  Aside from chaplains, _all_ military officers undergo physical training, including leading small party tasks in a simulated operational environment.


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## Sean Murray (19 Feb 2015)

Thank you for your responses, phrasing is important on forums such as this one. Would there be anyone here with experience working at DND in an analytical capacity, who would be willing/ able to provide advice? Thank you very much


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## Sean Murray (20 Feb 2015)

Hello,

Hopefully it is alright to ask this last question; would it be considered normal for someone with a university degree to apply as a NCM member of the Canadian Forces since they do not have the qualities to be a leader?


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## Teager (20 Feb 2015)

Sean Murray said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> Hopefully it is alright to ask this last question; would it be considered normal for someone with a university degree to apply as a NCM member of the Canadian Forces since they do not have the qualities to be a leader?



It is normal plenty of NCM's have degrees and even higher education. NCM's must still be able to lead and this is even started with recruits on BMQ.


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## Robert0288 (20 Feb 2015)

Firstly, I would doubt a civilian DND intel person would openly identify themselves as such on a public web forum.  Civilian employment is done through a different stream than military employment, even though you end up working in the same department.  Also I'm not sure what you are looking for in terms of advice.  The intelligence cycle is pretty much the same no matter what kind of capacity you are working in be it in the business  or financial sector, law enforcement, geopolitical or military.  

Reg force, I'm not sure of the quantity of ncm applicants who have a university degree.  But I know that in the reserve world, depending on the unit it is very common.  I hold a university degree, as did the majority of individuals within my Troop.  My fireteam partner during basic training had a masters in Aerospace engineering, and something or other in fluid dynamics.  A friend of mine in the Cameron Highlanders (an infantry unit) told me that in his section, he had over 150 years of professional schooling between all the troops that include doctors, lawyers, individuals with multiple masters degrees in history and economics as well as phd students.



> since they do not have the qualities to be a leader


Formal education does not make a good leader.  One of the best leaders I've ever had the privilege of working with was a high school drop out.


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## Messorius (20 Feb 2015)

Sean Murray said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> Hopefully it is alright to ask this last question; would it be considered normal for someone with a university degree to apply as a NCM member of the Canadian Forces since they do not have the qualities to be a leader?



Assuming I read you correctly, NCMs are expected to have leadership qualities as well.


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## PuckChaser (20 Feb 2015)

It's more and more common to see NCMs with one or multiple degrees. As stated before, a degree does not equal leadership ability. There's also plenty of commissioning from the ranks plans that you can apply for later, should you find your stride as a junior leader in the CAF.


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## AmmoTech90 (20 Feb 2015)

Sean Murray said:
			
		

> Thank you for your responses, phrasing is important on forums such as this one. Would there be anyone here with experience working at DND in an analytical capacity, who would be willing/ able to provide advice? Thank you very much



Here's a link to a job that was posted last year for a civilian intelligence analyst.  It was open to public servants and CF pers.  You needed a specialized undergrad degree, masters/doc is an asset.  The ability to standup and deliver briefings required, leadership is an asset:  (the link may not be available from non-governmental computers).
 https://jobs-emplois.psea-lefp.publiservice.gc.ca/cli101.do?id=148093&lang=en

Even if you were a public servant already, given what you have posted as your education and personality you would have probably been screened out because of other applicants who ticked those asset boxes.


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## Ludoc (20 Feb 2015)

So you want to get into the field of intelligence analysis, working for the government, but don`t feel you can you can do so as a member of the military?

maybe you should look here: https://csiscareers.ca/


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## cryco (20 Feb 2015)

That's actually a very good suggestion.


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## Sean Murray (22 Feb 2015)

Thank you everyone for all your support, you have been very kind. Thank you very much.


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## mkil (22 Feb 2015)

Sean Murray said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> Hopefully it is alright to ask this last question; would it be considered normal for someone with a university degree to apply as a NCM member of the Canadian Forces since they do not have the qualities to be a leader?



I have three degrees including a Master's in Education. Having education does not give you a rank or a salary. The only thing it gives you is choice. Plenty of NCM's I know have made that choice and are happy being an NCM. Some want to get their foot in the door as an NCM before considering APPLYING for commission. Having a degree does not grant you instant membership to the officer club.


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## Sean Murray (1 Mar 2015)

Thank you mail and everyone else for your help. Last question, as an NCM intelligence analyst is it possible to be involved in the production of strategic intelligence documents?


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## mariomike (1 Mar 2015)

Sean Murray said:
			
		

> Last question, as an NCM intelligence analyst is it possible to be involved in the production of strategic intelligence documents?



Do you mean NCM Intelligence Operator?

If so, you may find the answer here:

"I want to be Int" Mega-thread  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/12858.200


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