# Highest Ranking Female



## kstlouis (28 Aug 2008)

Does anyone know who the highest ranking female in the CF is or where I might find this information?   

Google search turns up nothing.

Thank you


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## Nfld Sapper (28 Aug 2008)

Used google and the info is a bit dated but here is a start:

1994: Maj.-Gen. Wendy Clay becomes the first woman promoted to that rank


I will assume that she has gone higher.


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## Edward Campbell (28 Aug 2008)

Try here: you have to go through the list, one by one, but ... Cmdre Bennett is in contention.


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## armyvern (28 Aug 2008)

For serving females (but lower ranking than MGen Clay), I can think of one:

Brigadier-General Jaeger who is the Surgeon General. She'd be the equivelant in rank to Commodore Bennett that Mr Campbell mentioned.

Then there was BGen Samson of Military Police (I think she's out now. Anyone?? Bueller??).


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## armyvern (28 Aug 2008)

Commodore Siew as well as BGen Whitecross

That's four serving females - all of the same rank.


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## MedCorps (28 Aug 2008)

BGen Samson retired in 2001.  

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/Newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=27

MC


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## armyvern (28 Aug 2008)

MedCorps said:
			
		

> BGen Samson retired in 2001.
> 
> http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/Newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=27
> 
> MC



Yeah, I didn't include her in my list of "four" when I noticed that her bio wasn't posted --- ergo she's no longer serving. I should have scratched her name from my earlier post.


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## kstlouis (28 Aug 2008)

In going through the Senior Officer appointment as previously suggested I find the following 4 women:


COMMODORE J.J. BENNETT, OMM, CD http://www.dnd.ca/dsa/app_bio/engraph/FSeniorOfficerBiographyView_e.asp?SectChoice=1&mAction=View&mBiographyID=297
COMMODORE ANDREA L. SIEW , CD http://www.dnd.ca/dsa/app_bio/engraph/FSeniorOfficerBiographyView_e.asp?SectChoice=1&mAction=View&mBiographyID=195
BRIGADIER-GENERAL C.T. WHITECROSS, OMM, CD http://www.dnd.ca/dsa/app_bio/engraph/FSeniorOfficerBiographyView_e.asp?SectChoice=1&mAction=View&mBiographyID=605
BRIGADIER-GENERAL H.F. JAEGER, OMM, MSM, CD, QHP http://www.dnd.ca/dsa/app_bio/engraph/FSeniorOfficerBiographyView_e.asp?SectChoice=1&mAction=View&mBiographyID=116

Thank you to this forum for being such a great source of information!  ;D


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## Blackadder1916 (28 Aug 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Used google and the info is a bit dated but here is a start:
> 
> 1994: Maj.-Gen. Wendy Clay becomes the first woman promoted to that rank
> 
> I will assume that she has gone higher.



MGen Clay (a Medical Officer) was Surgeon General.  She retired at that rank in 1998(?).  She also was the first female in the CF to attain wings standard as a pilot.


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## Staff Weenie (28 Aug 2008)

Don't know if any women have made LGen, MGen Wendy Clay and MGen Lise Mathieu are gone now.


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## armyvern (28 Aug 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Used google and the info is a bit dated but here is a start:
> 
> 1994: Maj.-Gen. Wendy Clay becomes the first woman promoted to that rank
> 
> ...



Apparently she did not achieve a higher rank, but did also serve as the Surgeon General.

Hmmm, she is one in the same as Major Clay who was the first female to achieve her pilot's qualification (she was a doctor) and some other "firsts". Interesting ... and good on her.


_Edited to add: As already noted by Blackadder1916 who is just way too quick on the keyboard today!!_


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## kstlouis (28 Aug 2008)

Also interesting that there are only two female base commanders:

http://www.dnd.ca/dsa/app_bio/engraph/FSeniorOfficerBiographyView_e.asp?SectChoice=1&mAction=View&mBiographyID=581

http://www.dnd.ca/dsa/app_bio/engraph/FSeniorOfficerBiographyView_e.asp?SectChoice=1&mAction=View&mBiographyID=785

I'm interested in all of this as I am writing an article about women in the military.

Again, thanks to this group for the direction.


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## MedCorps (28 Aug 2008)

MGen Clay's story is quite a good one.  She earned her wings in 1976... which was 6 years before the qualification was open to all women (hell, the Military College's did not let women in until 1979).  She was then promoted to MGen in 1994.  Quite a feat indeed. 


Good book for those that care: 

A History of Women in the Canadian Military by Barbara Dundas
SBN: 2-920718-79-7
Publisher: Art Global

Cheers, 

MC


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## aesop081 (28 Aug 2008)

Nothing promotes integration like singeling people out.......

Love it


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## X-mo-1979 (28 Aug 2008)

MedCorps said:
			
		

> MGen Clay's story is quite a good one.  She earned her wings in 1976... which was 6 years before the qualification was open to all women (hell, the Military College's did not let women in until 1979).  She was then promoted to MGen in 1994.  Quite a feat indeed.
> 
> 
> Good book for those that care:
> ...



How is it quite a feat?
Let's start another thread on who is the highest Iraqi in our army.What purpose does it serve?

I agree with CDN.


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## cameron (28 Aug 2008)

I find this thread informative as I have an interest in possibly researching visible minorities, including women, in the Canadian military.


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## aesop081 (28 Aug 2008)

cameron said:
			
		

> I find this thread informative as I have an interest in possibly researching visible minorities, including women, in the Canadian military.



We all wear the same uniform, serve under the same conditions and make the same money. So why is it of any interest ?


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## cameron (28 Aug 2008)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> How is it quite a feat?
> Let's start another thread on who is the highest Iraqi in our army.What purpose does it serve?
> 
> I agree with CDN.



Of course it's quite a feat for someone, whether from an ethnic, gender or other group to be the first to break a glass ceiling, especially in military organisations which whether you like to admit it or not are often very hidebound and resistant to change.  Such accomplisments deserve to be recognized.



[EDIT to fix QUOTE.  GW]


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## kstlouis (28 Aug 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Nothing promotes integration like singeling people out.......
> 
> Love it



Well that is one way to think about it, but my intention was to promote great accomplishments of women to other women.


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## George Wallace (28 Aug 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> We all wear the same uniform, serve under the same conditions and make the same money. So why is it of any interest ?



Exactly!  We are all "Green" or "Blue".  This here "Differential Training" is a crock.  Why should we divide everyone up into X's or Y's?  Why do we have to point out all the differences in people in the CF?  Why are we not pointing out all our similarities and why we are the "Same"?

 :


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## armyvern (28 Aug 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Exactly!  We are all "Green" or "Blue".  This here "Differential Training" is a crock.  Why should we divide everyone up into X's or Y's?  Why do we have to point out all the differences in people in the CF?  Why are we not pointing out all our similarities and why we are the "Same"?
> 
> :



She's not pointing out the "differences", she's pointing out the people who made it "the same".

Because ...

When she earned her pilot wings ... the CF STILL made women who got married get the hell OUT of the military.

The CF treated us "women" different in those days. Men who got married didn't have to get out. Where was the calls from all those males back then saying 

"Why!!?? We all wear the same uniform..."

Like it or not, those women were subject to different rules and regulations, despite the fact they "wore the same uniform" as their male counterparts, and some were groundbreakers.

The fact that they were groundbreakers is exactly the reason that we can all (including myself) say today:

"So?? We all wear the same uniform" and have it actually be a factual statement.

That same statement was "not" applicable to these women/aboriginal groundbreakers by regulation; _they_ made it so.


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## George Wallace (28 Aug 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> She's not pointing out the "differences", she's pointing out the people who made it "the same".
> 
> Because ...
> 
> ...



Fine!  Fine!  'But that is not the direction in which this topic is now turning.   :


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## armyvern (28 Aug 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> We all wear the same uniform, serve under the same conditions and make the same money. So why is it of any interest ?



We know this to be a factual statement because we are serving. We know it's true.

You'd be surprised, I'm sure, at the average Canadian's perception of the Canadian Armed Forces as a "Man's World". In an age where we are trying to increase recruiting of growing populations of women and aboriginals/minorities ... I'd think it'd would be a good thing to educate them with examples of this factual statement that "we all wear the same uniform, and we are all treated equally; only yourself can hold you back."


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## armyvern (28 Aug 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Fine!  Fine!  'But that is not the direction in which this topic is now turning.   :



Well, it wasn't I who jumped all over them and turned it that direction was it?  :


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## Celticgirl (28 Aug 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> She's not pointing out the "differences", she's pointing out the people who made it "the same".
> 
> Because ...
> 
> ...



Army Vern for Prime Minister.  ;D


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## X-mo-1979 (28 Aug 2008)

What do you mean?I thought all the women running around were nurses!You mean to tell me they have careers?who breast feeds the children!OUTRAGEOUS!


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## armyvern (28 Aug 2008)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> What do you mean?I thought all the women running around were nurses!You mean to tell me they have careers?who breast feeds the children!OUTRAGEOUS!





You dinosaur you ...  >

_Although I must admit, I too was once barefoot in my kitchen ... think I have a pic to prove it too!!_


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## aesop081 (28 Aug 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> You dinosaur you ...  >
> 
> _Although I must admit, I too was once barefoot in my kitchen ... think I have a pic to prove it too!!_



TTIUWP


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## armyvern (28 Aug 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> TTIUWP



I'm looking for it!


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## armyvern (28 Aug 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> TTIUWP



There you go ... all scanned and uploaded just for your viewing pleasure; notice the wonderful "crop" job that I did on it just so the _myth_ can never be attributed to myself.  ;D


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## armyvern (28 Aug 2008)

Yes, previously an Asst Adm(Mat) --- don't know how she escaped my recall.  :-[

It's not like the good Mr. Larry L. could ever escape one's memory.


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## gwp (28 Aug 2008)

kstlouis said:
			
		

> I'm interested in all of this as I am writing an article about women in the military. Again, thanks to this group for the direction.


Her Excellency Michaelle Jean CC, CMM, CD, The Governor General is the Commander in Chief.


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## aesop081 (28 Aug 2008)

gwp said:
			
		

> Her Excellency Michaelle Jean CC, CMM, CD, The Governor General is the Commander in Chief.



All that and has never served a single day in uniform. My feelings for this subject asside, shes hardly a poster child for women in the military.


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## armyvern (28 Aug 2008)

gwp said:
			
		

> Her Excellency Michaelle Jean CC, CMM, CD, The Governor General is the Commander in Chief.



Yes indeed Her Excellency is, but the question was distinctly "*in*" the military - which she is not, nor has ever been.


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## gwp (28 Aug 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> All that and has never served a single day in uniform. My feelings for this subject asside, shes hardly a poster child for women in the military.


The National Defence Act is not amended without her signature, the CDS doesn't get appointed without her signature.  No commissioning scroll, warrant or general officer scroll is valid without her signature.  No decoration is approved without her signature. That service is pretty vital to the country. There are many types of service.


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## aesop081 (28 Aug 2008)

gwp said:
			
		

> The National Defence Act is not amended without her signature, the CDS doesn't get appointed without her signature.  No commissioning scroll, warrant or general officer scroll is valid without her signature.  No decoration is approved without her signature. That service is pretty vital to the country. There are many types of service.



You know exactly what i mean by service ! She has not, ever, been in the CF. She is not an example of "women *IN * the military".

Plain and f'ing simple.


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## armyvern (28 Aug 2008)

gwp said:
			
		

> The National Defence Act is not amended without her signature, the CDS doesn't get appointed without her signature.  No commissioning scroll, warrant or general officer scroll is valid without her signature.  No decoration is approved without her signature. That service is pretty vital to the country. There are many types of service.



Yes indeed, once again - you are correct. And, that still does not preclude the fact that she is not, nor has ever been "in" the military -- and, again, that was the question. "*In the military*" was the caveat service that was being asked of.


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## garb811 (28 Aug 2008)

MedCorps said:
			
		

> BGen Samson retired in 2001.


She didn't retire in 2001, she was appointed DG Int and stayed around a few more years.  She didn't make it higher in rank though.


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## gwp (28 Aug 2008)

The first female Flag Officer 1988 or 89?
FIRST WOMAN APPOINTED TO SENIOR RESERVE NAVAL ADVISER
Naval Captain Laraine Orthlieb has been promoted to the rank of Commodore and simultaneously to the position of Senior Reserve Naval Adviser. Born in Saint John, New Brunswick, Orthlieb graduated from the Saint John General Hospital School of Nursing in 1959 and was subsequently commissioned as a Sublieutenant Nursing Sister at the Naval reserve Division, HMCS Brunswicker. She was transferred to HMCS Nonsuch in Edmonton in 1960, and later left the military to raise a family. Orthlieb re-enrolled at HMCS Tecumseh in Calgary where, in 1985 she was appointed Commanding Officer. Besides nursing, Orthlieb developed expertise in logistics, naval control of shipping and strategic studies. She is an officer in the Order of Military Merit and a graduate of the National Defence College in Kingston, Ontario. Since September, 1988 Commodore Orthlieb has served as the Senior Staff Officer to the Chief of Reserves and Cadets at National Defence Headquarters. Coincidentally, the announcement of Orthlieb's appointment was made by Canada's first woman Associate Defence Minister, The Hon. Mary Collins.


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## armyvern (29 Aug 2008)

gwp said:
			
		

> The first female Flag Officer 1988 or 89?
> FIRST WOMAN APPOINTED TO SENIOR RESERVE NAVAL ADVISER
> Naval Captain Laraine Orthlieb has been promoted to the rank of Commodore and simultaneously to the position of Senior Reserve Naval Adviser. Born in Saint John, New Brunswick, Orthlieb graduated from the Saint John General Hospital School of Nursing in 1959 and was subsequently commissioned as a Sublieutenant Nursing Sister at the Naval reserve Division, HMCS Brunswicker. She was transferred to HMCS Nonsuch in Edmonton in 1960, and later left the military to raise a family. Orthlieb re-enrolled at HMCS Tecumseh in Calgary where, in 1985 she was appointed Commanding Officer. Besides nursing, Orthlieb developed expertise in logistics, naval control of shipping and strategic studies. She is an officer in the Order of Military Merit and a graduate of the National Defence College in Kingston, Ontario. Since September, 1988 Commodore Orthlieb has served as the Senior Staff Officer to the Chief of Reserves and Cadets at National Defence Headquarters. Coincidentally, the announcement of Orthlieb's appointment was made by Canada's first woman Associate Defence Minister, The Hon. Mary Collins.



Mary Collins narrows it down to 1989 ... she was appointed just prior to our departure to Namibia; actually saw us off in her "official" capacity (there was a pic of her and I in the paper ... outside ... while I was having a smoke).

Got a citation for that biography you posted?? They like to link those things around here.


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## Nfld Sapper (29 Aug 2008)

gwp said:
			
		

> The first female Flag Officer 1988 or 89?
> FIRST WOMAN APPOINTED TO SENIOR RESERVE NAVAL ADVISER
> Naval Captain Laraine Orthlieb has been promoted to the rank of Commodore and simultaneously to the position of Senior Reserve Naval Adviser. Born in Saint John, New Brunswick, Orthlieb graduated from the Saint John General Hospital School of Nursing in 1959 and was subsequently commissioned as a Sublieutenant Nursing Sister at the Naval reserve Division, HMCS Brunswicker. She was transferred to HMCS Nonsuch in Edmonton in 1960, and later left the military to raise a family. Orthlieb re-enrolled at HMCS Tecumseh in Calgary where, in 1985 she was appointed Commanding Officer. Besides nursing, Orthlieb developed expertise in logistics, naval control of shipping and strategic studies. She is an officer in the Order of Military Merit and a graduate of the National Defence College in Kingston, Ontario. Since September, 1988 Commodore Orthlieb has served as the Senior Staff Officer to the Chief of Reserves and Cadets at National Defence Headquarters. Coincidentally, the announcement of Orthlieb's appointment was made by Canada's first woman Associate Defence Minister, The Hon. Mary Collins.



1988 Colonel Sheila Hellstrom is the first woman to graduate from the National Defence College. She becomes the first female Regular Force member to achieve the rank of Brigadier-General.

REF: Women throughout Canadian military history but only updated to 2004.


EDITED TO ADD REFERENCE


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## armyvern (29 Aug 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> 1988 Colonel Sheila Hellstrom is the first woman to graduate from the National Defence College. She becomes the first female Regular Force member to achieve the rank of Brigadier-General.
> 
> REF: Women throughout Canadian military history but only updated to 2004.
> 
> ...



His post about Commodore Orthlieb being the first female "Flag Officer" is correct though; "Flag Officer" denotes those serving within the Naval Enviornment.

There's something on this site that explains it all for those who don't understand (not you ...) CF Rank Structure


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## Nfld Sapper (29 Aug 2008)

But its interesting to note that she is not mentioned in that article, you would think that it would important enought to be there.


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## BinRat55 (29 Aug 2008)

kstlouis said:
			
		

> Also interesting that there are only two female base commanders:
> 
> http://www.dnd.ca/dsa/app_bio/engraph/FSeniorOfficerBiographyView_e.asp?SectChoice=1&mAction=View&mBiographyID=581
> 
> ...



Actually, if you include Wings as bases (we are) 9 Wing's commander is LCol Tammy Harris:
http://airforce.mil.ca/canairgens/2007/291353Zjan07_e.htm

http://gander.mil.ca/din_locl/bios/wcomd.htm

Another distinction with this is that she is also the highest ranking officer in the province of NL.


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## Nfld Sapper (29 Aug 2008)

Too bad the links you gave are for the DIN/DWAN


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## BinRat55 (29 Aug 2008)

Sorry about that -- try this one:

http://www.gandercanada.com/harris.htm


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## Eye In The Sky (29 Aug 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> She's not pointing out the "differences", she's pointing out the people who made it "the same".
> 
> Because ...
> 
> ...



So...what are the female requirements on the EXPRES test, compared to the male??

I don't see any females at the EXPRES test sessions beggin for equal treatment there.   :

(no AV, this is not directed at your personally...sorry if it seems that way!)


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## Celticgirl (29 Aug 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> So...what are the female requirements on the EXPRES test, compared to the male??
> 
> I don't see any females at the EXPRES test sessions beggin for equal treatment there.   :



I agree with you, Eye. Some of us are actually training to meet the male standards, though, and if more of us females get exempt on our EXPRES tests over time, perhaps we will see more equalization in the standards. Nonetheless, we all know that changing it now would result in the loss of many female candidates, which is precisely what recruiting does not want, as females are under-represented in the military. So...while I agree that it isn't fair to the males, I also understand the reasons behind it. In any case, my plan is to be the last person out there doing the 20 MSR, male or female.


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## Eye In The Sky (29 Aug 2008)

While she is not the Wing Commander, the CO of 406 (M) OTS here in 12 Wing is LCol Lise Bourgon.  

Her bio on the 406 Intranet site is here.

The Internet site has not been updated since 2006  :, so... for those without DIN access...

Lieutenant-Colonel Lise Bourgon joined the military in 1987 under the ROTP training plan and was selected to attend Le College Militaire Royal de St-Jean where she graduated in 1992 with a Bachelor Degree in Business Administration.

Following wings training in Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan in 1994, she was posted to 423 (MH) Squadron in Shearwater where she served on HMCS Preserver, NCSM Ville De Quebec and HMCS Toronto. In 1998, she was transferred to 406 (M) OTS, where she served as a pilot instructor.

Following her promotion to Major in 2001, she was posted to Ottawa in the Directorate of Air Requirements - Maritime as a Project Director working on projects such as the Maritime Helicopter Program and the Self-Defence Program.

She was posted back to 423 MH Squadron in 2004 to serve as the Detachment Commander on HMCS Montreal. Following OP TRANSFORM, she was appointed as the Wing Plans and Tasks Officer in 2005. She graduated from the Joint Command and Staff Program at the Canadian Force College in Toronto in 2007.


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## CountDC (29 Aug 2008)

gwp said:
			
		

> The National Defence Act is not amended without her signature, the CDS doesn't get appointed without her signature.  No commissioning scroll, warrant or general officer scroll is valid without her signature.  No decoration is approved without her signature. That service is pretty vital to the country. There are many types of service.



and do you really think she decides any of this?  Rubber stamping things the Government sends you is not much of a service.


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## armyvern (29 Aug 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> So...what are the female requirements on the EXPRES test, compared to the male??
> 
> I don't see any females at the EXPRES test sessions beggin for equal treatment there.   :
> 
> (no AV, this is not directed at your personally...sorry if it seems that way!)



Exact same standards on the BFT ... and pretty much most of us feel just as you do on the Express test.


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## Eye In The Sky (29 Aug 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Exact same standards on the BFT ... and pretty much most of us feel just as you do on the Express test.



I know...I also know you've done the BFT multiple times this year and I haven't.  ;D


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## Strike (29 Aug 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> While she is not the Wing Commander, the CO of 406 (M) OTS here in 12 Wing is LCol Lise Bourgon.
> 
> Her bio on the 406 Intranet site is here.
> 
> ...



I think the bigger achievement here is that the CO of 406 is a pilot as opposed to a nav...not that the CO is female.  Those who know the workings of 12 Wing will understand my little jibe.   ;D


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## X-mo-1979 (29 Aug 2008)

Quick question on that.Why are the standards differnt?I always thought women proved better at running/endurance sports...so why are the standards lower on both endurance and strenght?

How about the women who first got in "back in the day" did they do the male standard?And if so why was it changed?


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## BC Old Guy (29 Aug 2008)

The test standards are different, since the test is a predictor to do common military tasks.  From what I've read, women accomplish these tasks differently than their male counterpart, which means the two test standards indicate the ability to perform the actual tasks at the same level.


The original tests (1.5 mile run) had a number of problems  - including that people taking the test could be rather unfit, and still pass the test.  

When the step test was developed, it was a sub-maximal test, and included other elements that measured strength and endurance.  When it was introduced, it was studied to ensure it provided a valid predictor of being able to perform military tasks.  When introduced there were different standards set for men and women - and people have been asking why ever since.


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## armyvern (29 Aug 2008)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Quick question on that.Why are the standards differnt?I always thought women proved better at running/endurance sports...so why are the standards lower on both endurance and strenght?
> 
> How about the women who first got in "back in the day" did they do the male standard?And if so why was it changed?



I really don't know. Perhaps it's got something to do with the different ways our skeltons are formed. I do know --- that male World Records are faster than female World Records over like distances.

Perhaps, it takes a higher exertion of strength for a female to accomplish a pushup than a male due to the fact that our shoulder blades are not a like shape to males?? Also why girls tend to "girl throw" baseballs etc. 

Comparing the differences is a medical/anatomical/physic question ... it's not cut and dry.

Likewise - we could also all sit here and note the fact that even among the "BFT" there are indeed differences in standards. We just don't realize it. Think Fireman's carry.

We all have to carry someone of "like height and weight" ... but hey!! Wait one minute here ... if one guy has to carry someone who's 200 pounds the 100 metres to pass -- shouldn't we ALL be required to carry someone who's 200 pounds to pass? Why are some guys/gals only required to carry 140 pounds the 100 meters instead?? Could it be that it's the actual differences in body "structure" that make the difference instead of the old "you are allowed to pass by reaching a 'lower' standard"?? I'd argue that 5'5 150 pound guy carrying another the same as he is exerting the same amount of effort to accomplish his "pass" as the guy carrying the 200 pound troop that resembles himself.


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## Staff Weenie (29 Aug 2008)

Bringing this thread back on topic, what about Col Marcia Quinn - I think she was the first female to command a Reserve Brigade Group (I worked for her for a few years..).

And, lets not overlook the women who've made CWO, also a very respectable achievement: I think CWO Jan Skomorowski (now a Capt) was the first woman to become a CWO in the PRes (late 80's or very early 90s).

There's is/has been more female Col in the Health Services that I can easily name (okay, so I'm proud of my Group - is that a crime...).


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## George Wallace (29 Aug 2008)

Most, if not all, of these names are "recent".  What about the Women from pre-Unification?


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## Staff Weenie (29 Aug 2008)

Good question George - and in that line, would we include the WRENS, and all the other Women's Auxillary Corps?

Or, what about the Nursing Sisters who were sent to the Red River Rebellion, or the Boer War or World War One? 

Women have played such a vital role in our proud military history, 

For the person who initiated this thread - dig deep - there's so much to research here. Let us know what you're using the info for, and perhaps there's more specifics that can be added.


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## gwp (29 Aug 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Most, if not all, of these names are "recent".  What about the Women from pre-Unification?


How far back should this go?

James Miranda Stuart Barry, army physician and surgeon (b c1795 in England; d 1865 at London, Eng). 

*Dr James Barry was a woman* who disguised herself as a man so that she could study medicine and be a doctor.* 

In 1857 Barry was posted to Canada as inspector general of military hospitals, the army's senior doctor in Canada.* She was still thought to be a man. 

Her real surname was probably Bulkeley. Brought up in Britain, she first posed as a male in 1809 so that she could get into Edinburgh University. This was long before universities accepted women students. After graduating in medicine, Barry joined the British Army. Serving in South Africa, the Caribbean, and other parts of the world, she gained a reputation as an outstanding surgeon.

More here:
http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=A1ARTA0010029


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## AJFitzpatrick (30 Aug 2008)

gwp said:
			
		

> How far back should this go?



Queen Victoria?


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## the 48th regulator (30 Aug 2008)

AJFitzpatrick said:
			
		

> Queen Victoria?



She is not our first Female Queen, BTW.

dileas

tess


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## dangerboy (30 Aug 2008)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> She is not our first Female Queen, BTW.
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess



It depends on how technical you want to get Queen Victoria was crowed in 1837 and Canada was formed in 1867 so as the Country of Canada she was our first Queen.  Of course this has nothing to do with this thread, so I will end the hijack.


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## gwp (30 Aug 2008)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> She is not our first Female Queen, BTW. dileas
> tess


My we do get caught up in the minutia. 

It is claimed that Alexander Dunn was the first "Canadian" to be awarded the Victoria Cross 1854

The there are those "Canadians" that fought at Chateauguay, Detroit, and Chrystlers Farm in 1813 as well as those who fought in the Fenian Raid 1866 and earned the Colonial or Canadian General Service Medal. Little is known about any women amongst the ranks. 

The discussion even re-visits the matter of whether the military is vested in the Governor General or the Governor General is in the military?



> After Confederation in 1867, Governors General were authorized to oversee internal matters, but had to acknowledge and respect British policy concerning external affairs. The British North America Act declared that the Command-in-Chief of the Land and Naval Militia would continue to be vested in the Queen.
> 
> A Governor General as Head of State, a Canadian Militia
> The Militia was established by the Militia Act of 1868. In the 1870s, a small militia was based in Halifax under the command of a general officer on loan from the British Army.
> ...



Then again there were no Canadian citizens until 1949.


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## armyvern (30 Aug 2008)

gwp said:
			
		

> The discussion even re-visits the matter of whether the military is vested in the Governor General or the Governer General is in the military?



Funny that. I read it and interpret it as emphasizing the Governor General's "being vested to the King", and "it reinforced the *role* of the Governor General as Commander-in-Chief." That the Governor General shall "administer" us. And, that with each sucessive legislative change to our military establishment, the Governor General has continued to be vested as the Crown's representative acting in the role as Commander in Chief.  

Certainly not that she shall join us, or that she already (or ever) has. It certainly seems to me to be clear in that "administrative" intention.

Here it is for you from the official site:



> The Governor General of Canada is also Commander-in-Chief of Canada. As such, the Governor General plays a significant role in encouraging excellence and recognizing the important role of Canada’s military at home and abroad.
> 
> Among these responsibilities, the Governor General:
> 
> ...



I'm thinking --- if she were already considered to be "*in*" the military, what's with the "Honorary Colonel" title??


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## armyvern (30 Aug 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Mary Collins narrows it down to 1989 ... she was appointed just prior to our departure to Namibia; actually saw us off in her "official" capacity (there was a pic of her and I in the paper ... outside ... while I was having a smoke).
> 
> Got a citation for that biography you posted?? They like to link those things around here.



Just bumping this for the benefit of gwp. Please post your citations/references for items that are attributable to someone else's work (you've neglected it again in your last post in this thread) - lest Mr Bobbitt find himself facing any copyright/plagarism issues.

I'd appreciate it. Thanks.


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## the 48th regulator (30 Aug 2008)

gwp said:
			
		

> My we do get caught up in the minutea.





			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Just bumping this for the benefit of gwp. Please post your citations/references for items that are attributable to someone else's work (you've neglected it again in your last post in this thread) - lest Mr Bobbitt find himself facing any copyright/plagarism issues.
> 
> I'd appreciate it. Thanks.



Yes gwp, we do.

Glas you noticed that, it's what makes this site strong.

BTW, it is minutiae.  You forgot the I.

dileas

tess


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## armyvern (30 Aug 2008)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Yes gwp, we do.
> 
> Glas you noticed that, it's what makes this site strong.
> 
> ...



And also had the "ae" reversed.

Another example of why we need +10 for clicking "spell check" on MPs.


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## Kat Stevens (30 Aug 2008)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> She is not our first Female Queen, BTW.
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess



Interesting historical note, ALL of our and England's, Scotland's, Wales', and Northern Ireland's ruling Queens have been females.  In fact, to expand on this fascinating anomaly, all ruling Queens of any nation, empire, ant hill or bee hive, have been female, and will continue to be so for the forseeable future.


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## armyvern (30 Aug 2008)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Interesting historical note, ALL of our and England's, Scotland's, Wales', and Northern Ireland's ruling Queens have been females.  In fact, to expand on this fascinating anomaly, all ruling Queens of any nation, empire, ant hill or bee hive, have been female, and will continue to be so for the forseeable future.



 :rofl:

 >

Perhaps one day, we'll get to the transgendered stage ... could be interesting.


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## kratz (30 Aug 2008)

Somewhere between correct spelling, transgender Queens, and bee hives the thread has lost the answer to the OP's question. It's been a fun read though.  ;D


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## AJFitzpatrick (30 Aug 2008)

Is Queen a rank or an appointment ?


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## George Wallace (30 Aug 2008)

AJFitzpatrick said:
			
		

> Is Queen a rank or an appointment ?



Neither.  Hereditary.


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## armyvern (31 Aug 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Neither.  Hereditary.



Only in so much as you're not "The Queen" simply because you married "The King"; in those cases it's called "_you go girl_!"  >


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## armyvern (31 Aug 2008)

AJFitzpatrick said:
			
		

> Is Queen a rank or an appointment ?



Depends upon the country in question. There are many forms of Monarchy. In Jordan, the current Monarch "appoints" their sucessor to be - not necessarily a relative. And, in England - the eldest male child takes over the throne regardless of whether he has an elder sister - only when there is no "man-child" will the eldest daughter become a "Queen" should she outlive her reigning parent.


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## Blackadder1916 (31 Aug 2008)

AJFitzpatrick said:
			
		

> Is Queen a rank or an appointment ?



It is more appropriately an office of government, that which holds the executive power (and command-in-chief of the armed forces).  The actual designation "Queen" is the "style and title" given to the head of state of Canada (et al) as per the Royal Style and Titles Act.  Of a unique military rank or appointment, the Queen (but more specifically the Governor General) could be styled "Commander-in-Chief".

A-AD-265-000/AG-001 
CHAPTER 3 SECTION 2 RANK INSIGNIA AND APPOINTMENT BADGES


> THE COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF
> 1. The Governor General of Canada holds the appointment of Commander-in-Chief of the CF. In this capacity, the Governor General wears:
> 
> a. a flag/general officer uniform of any of the three environments, as appropriate or desirable;
> ...



Jeanne Sauvé (_pause to spit_) was probably the last (and only) GG who routinely wore such uniform to military events.


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## dapaterson (31 Aug 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Neither.  Hereditary.



Actually, the title of queen consort is not a hereditary position, but rather received on marriage to or on the accession to the throne of the king.  Queen's spouses do not become King, though - a blatant bit of discrimination.  I smell a charter challenge!


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## armyvern (31 Aug 2008)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Queen's spouses do not become King, though - a blatant bit of discrimination.  I smell a charter challenge!



We womenfolk just want to ensure that 9erD does indeed understand that he is STILL 9erD.     >


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## Kat Stevens (31 Aug 2008)

A King outranks a Queen in the great order of things.  The hereditary ruler can not be outranked by their spouse.


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## Command-Sense-Act 105 (31 Aug 2008)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Jeanne Sauvé (_pause to spit_)



Oy, Blackadder, I don't think that's on, old man!  

You may not like her, but to me your comment shows quite a bit of disrespect for and some disloyalty to that office.  Not everyone could be Georges Vanier, but on a public site like this I don't think a comment like that from one of our senior members is what we want to demonstrate.


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## Blackadder1916 (31 Aug 2008)

CSA 105 said:
			
		

> Oy, Blackadder, I don't think that's on, old man!
> 
> You may not like her, but to me your comment shows quite a bit of disrespect for and some disloyalty to that office.  Not everyone could be Georges Vanier, but on a public site like this I don't think a comment like that from one of our senior members is what we want to demonstrate.



I have much respect for the office and am loyal to the Crown, however, I have little for that particular individual who once held that office.  There were a few actions (or inactions) on her part while Speaker that so formed my opinion, but it was many of the things she did while at Rideau Hall that was the major impetus.  Surprisingly, the wearing of the CF Commander-in-Chief uniform was not one of them.  While many may have considered her somewhat ridiculous (or putting on airs) when she wore the uniforms, I felt that it was usually appropriate to the occasion and demonstrated respect for the military.  Alas, she lacked the common touch that would have forged a better bond with those of us in uniform.

(as an aside: her signature is affixed to my commisioning scroll)


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## gwp (1 Sep 2008)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Jeanne Sauvé (_pause to spit_) was probably the last (and only) GG who routinely wore such uniform to military events.



HE Ray Hnatyshyn regularly appeared in uniform.  Here is an example presenting Gulf War Medals
http://www.gg.ca/visitus/pdf/kit/03_e.pdf


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