# Converting 404's to a full Civilian Licence



## stellarpanther (12 Jul 2020)

Not sure if we have any MSE Op's here but here's the question.  My son, in the reserves was lead to believe and I was also told that a DP1 or Driver Wheeled course will get you the full G license and there is something on MTO site about it.  However, he just started the course and one of the students asked about it and was told by the instructors that they need to wait 2 years.  That's definitely not what he was told.  He thought he'd come back and get the paperwork to bring to MTO.  Anyone know about this?


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## dangerboy (12 Jul 2020)

Here is an article with a link that talk about it. https://ml-fd.caf-fac.ca/en/2018/05/13734


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## dangerboy (12 Jul 2020)

Here is the important info you are looking for:



> In order to be eligible for licence equivalency, current and retired service members must have held a DND 404 for at least two years. CAF / retired members, who have not held a DND 404 for at least two years are not eligible for licence equivalency. Members are not required to hold individual vehicle qualifications for two years or more to apply for the equivalent provincial driver’s licence class.


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## PuckChaser (12 Jul 2020)

The program was for commercial class driver's licences. A lot of provinces waived road test/knowledge tests for 404 holders for your G or personal vehicle licence.


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## stellarpanther (12 Jul 2020)

I won't tell him this.  Right now he's piss enough to quit as it is.  He just got there after having it delayed. He was originally supposed to go from 2 Jul-24 Aug which got cancelled and then on Thursday they called him and said they changed the dates to 13 Jul - 15 Aug which is what the CFTPO and Claim also says.  Now at the course they are saying it is running until 24 Aug.  Lot's of pissed off student's telling each other they are quitting either now or as soon as they get back.


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## Jarnhamar (12 Jul 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Lot's of pissed off student's telling each other they are quitting either now or as soon as they get back.



op:


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## stellarpanther (12 Jul 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> op:



I wish I was there watching the show.  Is lengthening a course common in reserves?  I find it surprising that it could happen considering a lot of people have their regular job that they need to get time off from and arrange in advance.


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## PuckChaser (12 Jul 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I wish I was there watching the show.  Is lengthening a course common in reserves?  I find it surprising that it could happen considering a lot of people have their regular job that they need to get time off from and arrange in advance.



Nothing is common about what's happening right now. What's happening now is ripping decades of bandaids off the reserves and showing the gapping wounds of poor leadership, risk adversity and inabilities to plan. It's happening in the RegF too, but its harder to hide those wounds when you're working every day not 5 days a month.

If they change the dates at the last minute and the member cannot attend due to job/school/etc, then make an adult decision to change personal plans or don't go on the course. That adult decision has career consequences especially for a PRes MSE Op, but that's what adults have to do.


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## Jarnhamar (12 Jul 2020)

I'm not sure. I figure shortening the course would be more common.

Teaching on courses with reservists can be maddening for all the appointments and short timelines and deals units made with whomever.

Time off is a valid argument for sure. Reserve units seem to operate under this belief that civilian jobs will accommodate reserves not being able to organize themselves to save their lives.


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## stellarpanther (12 Jul 2020)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> If they change the dates at the last minute and the member cannot attend due to job/school/etc, then make an adult decision to change personal plans or don't go on the course. That adult decision has career consequences especially for a PRes MSE Op, but that's what adults have to do.



I don't think any part of this is the fault of the student who did the right thing by arranging their schedule with a few days notice only to be told once they are there that they are adding 9 more days to it.  The people who did the planning are the only ones at fault here.  It's not realistic to tell people who waited until a couple days before a course started that the course is running and provide them dates in writing and then be expected to stay for a week and a half longer.  The only ones not acting like adults are the ones who did the poor planning.


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## PuckChaser (12 Jul 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I don't think any part of this is the fault of the student who did the right thing by arranging their schedule with a few days notice only to be told once they are there that they are adding 9 more days to it.  The people who did the planning are the only ones at fault here.  It's not realistic to tell people who first waited until a couple days before a course started to find out for sure there going and then be expected to go and be told it's over when it's over.



Sure, totally not the student's fault. Is that going to change the dates back? Sure isn't. Change plans if possible and make sure the last minute change is noted on the course AAR, or the student can tell their CoC why they can't go on the course now and let them take it up with course staff if too many people drop. Things change at the last minute all the time in the CAF, it isn't an 9-5 bank office job. We try to limit those changes as much as possible but sometimes they're not avoidable. 

Does your son even know why the dates changed? Perhaps they couldn't get the vehicles to the unit in time. Perhaps they're VOR and they won't be ready in time. What if an instructor got COVID-19 on the workup and now the course is cancelled? There's a million reasons why people need to be flexible, especially on something with a lot of moving parts like a Driver Wheeled (pun not intended).


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## stellarpanther (12 Jul 2020)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Sure, totally not the student's fault. Is that going to change the dates back? Sure isn't. Change plans if possible and make sure the last minute change is noted on the course AAR, or the student can tell their CoC why they can't go on the course now and let them take it up with course staff if too many people drop. Things change at the last minute all the time in the CAF, it isn't an 9-5 bank office job. We try to limit those changes as much as possible but sometimes they're not avoidable.
> 
> Does your son even know why the dates changed? Perhaps they couldn't get the vehicles to the unit in time. Perhaps they're VOR and they won't be ready in time. What if an instructor got COVID-19 on the workup and now the course is cancelled? There's a million reasons why people need to be flexible, especially on something with a lot of moving parts like a Driver Wheeled (pun not intended).



The reason they were given is that it wasn't reasonable to run the course in the time frame it was scheduled for in the opinion of the course staff.


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## Jarnhamar (12 Jul 2020)

If anything your son should thank the staff for introducing him and his course to life in the military early on.


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## stellarpanther (12 Jul 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> If anything your son should thank the staff for introducing him and his course to life in the military early on.



Although it hasn't happened to me or to anyone I'm aware of, if it was a Reg Force mbr and this happened I would be like that sucks but that's the way it is.  When it's the Reserves, I didn't think it would ever happen.  Not all employers are understanding and willing to grant the extra time off and I once worked for a large company that would make people use vacation time for weekend ex's and courses.


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## NavyShooter (12 Jul 2020)

So, a Driver course has been extended....let me ponder why they might do that based on my (minimal) experience with the DW course.

Are there restrictions on how many people are allowed to be in vehicles now?  Yes.  

Were those restrictions planned for in the course design?  Not the original QSP, but now that the staff have gathered, done their preparations and reviewed the course requirements against the safety requirements required, the staff have done their due diligence, and advised to lengthen the course to enable proper individual spacing in vehicles.  

Previously, you'd have a driver instructor plus 3 trainees in a vehicle.  Now they're probably only able to do it individually - driver + instructor.  Means a whole lot more time.  9 days is probably still cutting it close.

This is not a surprise, it's an inevitability.


Also - are the trainees on a contract until 31 Aug?  That was the period that was most likely offered to all of them regardless of course end date.  The 'exception' is for the troops to finish before 31 Aug - and they'd have had to request a shorter contract.

NS


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## stellarpanther (12 Jul 2020)

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> So, a Driver course has been extended....let me ponder why they might do that based on my (minimal) experience with the DW course.
> 
> Are there restrictions on how many people are allowed to be in vehicles now?  Yes.
> 
> ...



My son is on contract until 28 Aug according to an email he received.  He swears though he never signed anything saying that so who knows.  Personally I think it's good for him to be there a bit longer because he wouldn't be doing anything else around here anyway.  You mentioned "everyone" being on contract until 31 Aug 2020, do people with full time jobs or other commitments no longer join and use vacation time etc for courses like the old days?  It's quiet possible it's different than it used to be when people agreed to attend a specific course for x amount of days or the annual 2 week ex with specific dates.  When I was in the Res years ago, I had to take 2 weeks vacations to go to the summer ex and courses.  If they would have been extended, I would have been expected back at work on Monday or would have been fired.  The Res isn't the Reg force and people shouldn't be expected to give the same level of commitment and juggle there lives because they changed plans at the last second.


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## BDTyre (13 Jul 2020)

Not "everyone" is on contract. We were given the option to go on a class C contract back in the spring. Large numbers of people took the offer. Personally, I did not. It made no sense for me to give up my full time civilian job. As a result, I have not really worked any Class A days since March and probably won't until September.



			
				stellarpanther said:
			
		

> My son is on contract until 28 Aug according to an email he received.  He swears though he never signed anything saying that so who knows.  Personally I think it's good for him to be there a bit longer because he wouldn't be doing anything else around here anyway.  You mentioned "everyone" being on contract until 31 Aug 2020, do people with full time jobs or other commitments no longer join and use vacation time etc for courses like the old days?  It's quiet possible it's different than it used to be when people agreed to attend a specific course for x amount of days or the annual 2 week ex with specific dates.  When I was in the Res years ago, I had to take 2 weeks vacations to go to the summer ex and courses.  If they would have been extended, I would have been expected back at work on Monday or would have been fired.  The Res isn't the Reg force and people shouldn't be expected to give the same level of commitment and juggle there lives because they changed plans at the last second.


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## stellarpanther (13 Jul 2020)

i can't speak for all Reserve units but based on the stuff I hear from my son, and I have a buddy who's son is in the same unit who says the same thing, it seems like they do a lot of Bulls***ing to the mbr's.  I went in with him on the advice of my old Captain who told me he went in with his buddies kid to make sure they were being honest.  I sat there while they promised him the world.  If what the recruiter at the unit was right, he would be almost completely trained by now and shoiuld have his Sgt's within 4 years of joining.  This guy was way worse than any Reg Force recruiter when it came to BS.  IMO, they should be giving people the honest truth about what it will most likely happen.


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## stellarpanther (14 Jul 2020)

I don't have a lot of experience with Reserve policy but am I correct that when a mbr is on class b or class c, they also get 2 days leave per month?  If a person goes on Class B from 6 July - and goes on course until 26 Aug, they will be entitled to 4 days leave.  Am I correct?  if they can't use all that leave prior to their contract running out they can cash in those days?


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## dapaterson (14 Jul 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I don't have a lot of experience with Reserve policy but am I correct that when a mbr is on class b or class c, they also get 2 days leave per month?  If a person goes on Class B from 6 July - and goes on course until 26 Aug, they will be entitled to 4 days leave.  Am I correct?  if they can't use all that leave prior to their contract running out they can cash in those days?



QR&O chapter 16.  Article 16.14.


> (10) An officer or non-commissioned member of the Reserve Force — who is on Class “B” or “C” Reserve Service of at least 30 consecutive days — is entitled to annual leave of one working day for each 15 consecutive days of paid service during that period of service, to a maximum of 24 working days in a fiscal year.
> 
> (11) Annual leave granted to an officer or non-commissioned member of the Reserve Force in accordance with paragraphs (3) and (10) shall be
> 
> ...



Therefore, for the period of 06 July - 26 August (inclusive), they will be employed for 52 consecutive days, and entitled to three days of annual leave.

If they cannot for reasons of the service take their leave within the 06 July - 26 August take some or all of that leave, CBI 205.75 applies.

There are two different calculation formulas depending on whether the leave was under class B or class C terms of service, as the calculations of the value of a working days (vs a calendar day) is different depending on whether you are starting from a monthly rate of pay or a daily rate of pay (class C is monthly, class B is daily).

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/policies-standards/compensation-benefits-instructions/chapter-205-allowances-for-officers-and-non-commissioned-members.html#sec-75


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## stellarpanther (14 Jul 2020)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> QR&O chapter 16.  Article 16.14.
> Therefore, for the period of 06 July - 26 August (inclusive), they will be employed for 52 consecutive days, and entitled to three days of annual leave.
> 
> If they cannot for reasons of the service take their leave within the 06 July - 26 August take some or all of that leave, CBI 205.75 applies.
> ...



Thanks, I just learned something today.  All this time I thought we needed to be connected to the DWAN to access CBI's and QR&O's.  He'll have to wait to figure it out because the course dates keep changing.  It went from 13 Jul - 15 Aug, then 13 Jul - 24 Aug and now 26 Aug.  My son is actually enjoying himself as I knew he would once he settled in.  Unfortunately 2 or 3 people RTU'd because of civi jobs they needed to get back to and couldn't get the extra time off.  They were apparently pissed that it wasn't figured out in advance and they basically took vacation time for this course that they now can't take.  Not everyone agreed to be on Class B or C.  For the people on Class B or C until the end of Aug, I have no issue with it, but for those with regular jobs to get back to who used vacation time based on what they were told, I feel bad for those people.


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## PuckChaser (14 Jul 2020)

When I was doing my training on Cl B, the contract was written so it extended beyond the end of the course to add in a travel day and any annual earned as we were not allowed leave during the course. I suspect it's a similar system now, if it's even changed at all.


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## ModlrMike (15 Jul 2020)

Yes, done properly a Route Letter should encompass all travel, work, and leave days.


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## stellarpanther (15 Jul 2020)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Yes, done properly a Route Letter should encompass all travel, work, and leave days.



Refresh my memory on what a route letter is again.  I recall hearing the term when I was in the Reserves years ago but I thought most units, just as the Reg force use claims x.


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## dapaterson (15 Jul 2020)

The route letter is the pay authority document.


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## stellarpanther (15 Jul 2020)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The route letter is the pay authority document.



I didn't see anything like that with my sons paperwork.  He had a claim completed on Claims X, CFTPO, joining instructions and ECN, NOK forms.  Maybe I missed it.


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## dapaterson (15 Jul 2020)

Form CF899 (class B).  For class C, there would be an authority message.


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## stellarpanther (15 Jul 2020)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Form CF899 (class B).  For class C, there would be an authority message.



I'm sure they'll sort it out but there was nothing like that in the package he received from his OR.

Speaking of Class B and C, do mbr's not sign some sort of contract for that?  He is adamant that he never signed anything.


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