# Whats wrong with our army?



## arctictern (27 Oct 2004)

How can they expect to get a bigger army when the recruits have to wait months or even years before they get a job offer.


I wish I'd just get my call, I am ready to go, if they called me tomorrow and wanted me to leave the same day I would, I'd leave tonight if I had to!


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## hoote (27 Oct 2004)

The way I look at it is if they are going to give you a gun (maybe explosives too), and the knowhow to use them, they want to make sure they have the right person.  So not only does a person have to be fit, he has to be intelligent enough, responsible enough, and have the right attitude otherwise it is a waste of the army's and that person's time.  That is my opinion.   I have found that any similar type of profession (Local Police, CSIS, RCMP) all take a while to get on.  In fact, my brother's RCMP application process took over a year and a half and he isn't the only one!  So I think waiting 3 or 4 months is not too bad considering how significant a life style change it will be.

By the way, how long have you been waiting?  I haven't heard of anyone waiting years unless they had a serious medical, psychological, criminal, etc. concern.


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## Pieman (27 Oct 2004)

> So I think waiting 3 or 4 months is not too bad considering how significant a life style change it will be.


If it really did take only 3 or 4 months then you may have a point. It seems the average time to get in reg force is 9 months. (I base that guessimate by what i read here, any official figures out there?)  There are other applications that take well over a year to get in.


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## Fishbone Jones (27 Oct 2004)

No, the CF recruiting system has stalled and is failing. When I went from Reserve to the Regs, in the early 70's, it took about two weeks to get the paperwork done and get an offer, and the testing and paperwork hasn't changed that much. I had to wait a month to report because the trade wasn't open at the time. We were also processing a lot more people then. It was also all done by hand, no computers back then. When I tried to get back in the Reserve in 91, it took over a year. There are serious problems that no one wants to tackle.


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## pbi (28 Oct 2004)

From the perspective of a Res CBG that has struggled with slow intake procdures, the main problem seems to be the "choke point" of  the medical review process in Borden. Here is my take on that (I stand to be corrected) The Treasury Board (the Federal Govt's business managers and money people) hate to hire any body into Federal service who might represent  a claim for compensation down the road. Therefore, there is an almost paranoid obsession with any pre-existing condition whatsoever. Some of the examples that I have been briefed on were, IMHO as a "layman", ridiculous. In order to vet out any medical issues, all recruit applications are screened by the medical review staff of Canadian Forces Recruiting Group (CFRG) in Borden. To the best of my knowldge, this cell is grossly undermanned and has no capacity to handle the current high volume of applicants. The result is delays that are extremely frustrating to the applicant, to the unit and to the CBG. Last year Comd LFWA took the collected concerns of his three Res CBG Comds to the CLS, who in turn discussed them with Comd CFRG. CFRG dispatched a Col to adress Comd LFWA's O Gp. I sat in on the meeting: the CFRG rep professed surprise at the level of anger and frustration.

Anyway, it's not fixed yet, and I really wonder how our CFRG will deal with an emergency surge, since it has no inherent exapansion capacity (ie: There are no "Reserve Recruiting Units" that can be called up to augment the CFRG) and is apparently being strangled by its own inadequate medical apparatus.

Cheers.


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## Fruss (28 Oct 2004)

I think the wait might be a little long for some, but you have to get the applicant to wait..  If it takes 2-3 weeks to complete everything, everyone who gets up in the morning with a sudden urge to join the army will be able to do so faster than saying Rabbit!!

If you have them wait a couple of months, even 5-6-7 months, you're sure you only have the one who really wants to be in the army and the not so in the mood will stop the procedures by themselves..  

That's what happened to me many years ago, when I tried to join the reserve..  I wanted to join the army, the reserve was what fitted the most for me, I just wanted to wear the uniform or something like that..  After 6 months, the army asked me to redo my tests again, I just said, screw it, so the process stopped there!!  I know I wouldn't have been a good candidate back then..

That's my 2 cents..

Cheers

Frank


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## AndrewD83 (28 Oct 2004)

I agree with the above posters.  Having a longer wait time may be beneficial to weed out those who wake up in the morning with a sudden urge to try something new... without really being fully committed or realizing what exactly the are getting into.

Plus when you jump through all those government hoops and patiently 'hurry up and wait' for a year or so it makes wearing the uniform that much more special.


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## Tracker (28 Oct 2004)

pbi has some good points, but, if you look at the amount of money Veterans Affairs is paying out to todays "Veterans," you probably would be a little gun shy too, If I were running the show, I would also be careful that I didn't take in someone with an existing med problem and then pay them a pension for aggravating it.

I thought the bottle neck for the Reserves was taken care of.  Don't they enroll Reserve applicants before the med file returns if they have a clean bill of health?


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## pbi (28 Oct 2004)

Tracker said:
			
		

> pbi has some good points, but, if you look at the amount of money Veterans Affairs is paying out to todays "Veterans," you probably would be a little gun shy too, If I were running the show, I would also be careful that I didn't take in someone with an existing med problem and then pay them a pension for aggravating it.
> 
> I thought the bottle neck for the Reserves was taken care of. Don't they enroll Reserve applicants before the med file returns if they have a clean bill of health?



Tracker: Agreed on your first point, but the machinery for making these determinations is suspect. On your second point: you are quite right, and I had forgotten all about "Conditional Enrollment". This is now in effect and should go some way toward easing the congestion and frustration.

Andrew and Frank: I think you are arguing from "what is" to "what should be". Implying that the sclerotic system was somehow providing a "cooling off period" for hasty decisions is normalizing failure and giving no credit whatsoever to applicants. I have spent the last two and a bit years dealing with these issues at Brigade level and I can assure you that the delays were neither acceptable nor useful. Cheers.


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## arctictern (28 Oct 2004)

AndrewD83 said:
			
		

> I agree with the above posters.  Having a longer wait time may be beneficial to weed out those who wake up in the morning with a sudden urge to try something new... without really being fully committed or realizing what exactly the are getting into.
> 
> Plus when you jump through all those government hoops and patiently 'hurry up and wait' for a year or so it makes wearing the uniform that much more special.




I agree with that a bit but I remember when I did my interview there was a guy there who didn't know what he was getting into so the recruit took him out of his interview and sat him down in front of the computer and showed him all the videos.


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## CL84 (28 Oct 2004)

Daryl, I don't think anything is 'wrong' with our Army. The recruiting process is really slow, slower for some, faster for others, but still I think you can find a good reason for it. This way, we aren't getting anyone who really doesn't want to be there, the wait time gives you lots of time to think about your choice. Although I wish it was faster for myself, I'm glad it happened the way it did, so I could give my choice the due consideration it deserved, rather than just saying 'hey I feel like joining the Army and quitting this factory job I'm in,' joining then realising hey Holy **** is this what I want?

I applied in April 2004, completed my tests in June, became med approved and merrit listed Aug 23rd, and got my offer Sep 28th. I leave Oct 31st (sunday) and my course starts Nov 2nd. Reg Infantry The RCR. I am thankful that it went as 'fast' as it did, but I agree with your frustration. During my process I had the same feelings; like being really mad, frustrated and feeling like my life is on hold, tired of working jobs I didn't want to be at etc.

Just wait man, your time will come. Keep yourself busy, keep a positive attitude, and well...

Hurry up and wait like everyone else.  

Good luck


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## Fruss (28 Oct 2004)

pbi: maybe you're right, I don't know exactly why there's a wait..  Maybe it's not legitimate..  But the WAIT is a good thing..  I never said that the reasons for it are good as I don't know them..

In order to discard the "bad" applicants, you, unfortunatly, have to make the good ones wait too. Everyone has to go through the same process.

Frank


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## Pieman (28 Oct 2004)

> But the WAIT is a good thing..  I never said that the reasons for it are good as I don't know them..
> 
> In order to discard the "bad" applicants, you, unfortunately, have to make the good ones wait too. Everyone has to go through the same process.



I totally disagree with this. Making young, energetic, people with a drive for success are going to have more than just the Army as an opportunity in their life. Do you really think that a person who has a lot of options is going to sit around and just wait for the CF to process their forms? 

'No sorry, I can't take a 3 year contract to judge supermodel bathing suit contests....my CF application is in and I am waiting...could be any year now.'

Also, people who are recent graduates from university and want to enter a DEO program often have a high debt load. They simply have to get into a career that makes money quickly, and like any career that takes a commitment. If one takes a good job for a large company and simply walks away from it, that is very irresponsible, and they will certainly have a hard time getting a job in that field again. They simply cannot afford to sit around and wait for the CF.

The CF loses about 30% of the applicants in the recruiting process, with the vast majority of them giving up out of frustration. Do you really think that all these people were just 'bad' applicants and not serious about it? Or is it  more likely that they saw how foolish the recruiting process is, and felt that the rest of the CF must be like that. If the rest of the CF works like the recruiting process I would seriously reconsider my application.


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## pbi (29 Oct 2004)

Pieman states the case pretty much as I see it. We are crazy if we accept and normalize systemic inadequacy as though some kind of allegedly good result comes from it. If young Canadians show the interest to serve their country, the least we can do is get our own act in gear.  If they really aren't suitable: well---that's what recruit depot is for. How our system would ever react to an emergency surge is beyond me. Cheers.


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## Tracker (29 Oct 2004)

How are you going to fix the problem?  I suggest that those people who are having a problem with the recruiting system seek avenues of redress.  If enough people complain to the right office, it might get fixed.


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## pbi (29 Oct 2004)

Tracker said:
			
		

> How are you going to fix the problem? I suggest that those people who are having a problem with the recruiting system seek avenues of redress. If enough people complain to the right office, it might get fixed.



If you look at my earlier post, you will see that the chain of command brought the issue to Comd LFWA, who took it to the CLS, wo took it to Comd CFRG. "Supporting Fires" have included SCONDVA, Reserve 2000, the Minister's Monitoring Committee, numerous Honorary Colonels, Reserve unit COs, Res CBG Comds and their staffs, applicants and their families. There have also been various mentions in the media.

The only practical solution is to increase the size of the "aperture" created by CFRG's capacity. This means:

- beefing up the medical review capability, including hiring civilian doctors. If civ doctors can approve firefighters, police, oilfield workers and others in hazardous or "exposed" occupations, they can be instructed on how to review military recruits;

-devolve medical review to more than one location, with a Med IG to check on standards periodically;

-increase the capacity of the recruiting machinery by raising Reserve Recruiting Augmentation Detatchments, composed of Class A  and B Res who can be employed to beef up the throughput capacity, and who will provide a base for expansion in an emergency surge. At present no such capacity exists, as far as I know;

-hire more background investigators to speed the security checks, as these are particularly important and must not be sacrificed for expediency;and

-make recruiting a high profile, rewarded duty (as the USMC does) for RegF people.

That should do it.

Cheers.


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## bossi (29 Oct 2004)

pbi said:
			
		

> We are crazy if we accept and normalize systemic inadequacy as though some kind of allegedly good result comes from it.


How ironic that one's first impression of the Army would be ... "hurry up and wait" ... (chuckle)



			
				pbi said:
			
		

> If young Canadians show the interest to serve their country, the least we can do is get our own act in gear.


No, really?  Why would we want a recruit to receive his first pay cheque in anything under three months ... when MacDonald's/Harvey's/Wal-Mart pays them after two weeks, plus gives them benefits ... and a uniform?



			
				pbi said:
			
		

> If they really aren't suitable: well---that's what recruit depot is for.


AAAAAGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!! NO, NO, NO, NO - there are simply too many misguided individuals who take it upon themselves to fail as many recruits as possible (perhaps to prove how tough they are) ... instead of the extraordinary challenge of turning raw civilian into polished soldiers by teaching, guiding and inspring them.
It's easy to break a person mentally or physically - it's much more difficult to build them into something better.
When the very survival of our Army and Regiments depends on getting more troops to task, we need to improve the things we can control (e.g. the enrolment system, and recruit training).
After all, recruits are only human, so are we, and every single one of us was a fresh-faced civvie once ...



			
				pbi said:
			
		

> How our system would ever react to an emergency surge is beyond me.


Stop.  You're scaring me.  You mean our tried-and-true method of turning the Horse Palace into barracks wouldn't work again ... ?


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## CL84 (29 Oct 2004)

Yeah, I agree with everything you've mentioned Tracker. Things do need a change, and the recruiting system does need to be sped right up for sure. I agree.

But, that's not the way things are right now. Right now, everyone who is waiting for that call, or mad at how long the system takes or frustrated with recruiters or the system in general, wait, just wait, your time will come and it will be worth it. Surviving the recruiting process is probobly one great thing to be proud of anyways. Hopefully things can change but again, until that happens, this is the way things are right now. So just make the best of your waiting period, and stay positive.

Good luck everyone


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## pbi (29 Oct 2004)

> AAAAAGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!! NO, NO, NO, NO - there are simply too many misguided individuals who take it upon themselves to fail as many recruits as possible (perhaps to prove how tough they are) ... instead of the extraordinary challenge of turning raw civilian into polished soldiers by teaching, guiding and inspring them.
> It's easy to break a person mentally or physically - it's much more difficult to build them into something better.
> When the very survival of our Army and Regiments depends on getting more troops to task, we need to improve the things we can control (e.g. the enrolment system, and recruit training).
> After all, recruits are only human, so are we, and every single one of us was a fresh-faced civvie once ...



bossi---you're confusing me again. Do you really think that CFRC serves a bigger filtering role than initial exposure to recruit training does, or that it even should? Or are you being sarcastic......(Ok-I know you don't do that, but....) ;D Any more silly thoughts and you're not getting your half. Cheers.


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## teltech (29 Oct 2004)

Perhaps in the same vein - Why the large delay in processing CT's? If the candidate has already passed the medical and security check as a reservist, with perhaps has a tour under his/her belt, shouldn't it be a case of "turn in your regimental kit and report to St Jean / Meaford (sorry! ) / your new unit" within, say, two weeks? I would think that the regs would be chomping at the bit to take pers that already have some training, and get them into the units ASAP.

If CT's have been streamlined, and my rant is now obsolete, please disregard.


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## bossi (29 Oct 2004)

Teltech said:
			
		

> If CT's have been streamlined, and my rant is now obsolete, please disregard.



You'll love this:   I've lost track of how many guys I've met lately, who'd applied for CT but then ...

One was a guy who has graduated from law school and passed the bar admission exam ... but has been in limbo so long he may have changed his mind ...

Another was a guy who returned recently from Afghanistan ... but, you'll REALLY love this ... his RECRUITING medical expired (probably because they were making time while he was in freakin' Kabul), so ... he's reconsidering the CT ...

Yet another is a guy applying for Int - he's more than qualified, and my friends "in the know" say they'd take him tomorrow ... but ... somehow his file hasn't made it from the CFRC to the spooks at NDHQ ... and instead he got an offer for his present MOC first ... hmmm ...

I kinda wonder:   When MOC's are screaming for "reinforcements", isn't it odd that CT's are taking so long ...
(and, as an aside - when I say I don't understand, it's from the perspective of somebody who spent several years at RZHQ as an Assistant Zone PSO - and, I know one of the higher ups as a friend and as an excellent officer ... so I'm also voicing frustration from the perspective of the recruiting system - there are guys wearing the same colour uniforms as us, busting their butts to get more troops to the front ... but ... I dunno - it seems we are burdened with paper wars to the left and right ...)

Oh - I know!  Let's outsource recruiting to a crony of the Liberal Party who's got a commercial "office overload" type of business ... then, the Army will automatically become a happier place, since only the Party faithful will get in, and of course the whining will stop ... hmmm ... party members getting preferential treatment in the army ... why does that sound so familiar ... ?
(YES - THAT LAST PART IS FRICKIN' SARCASM!!!!!  Grrrr ... I'm going to the swimming pool ...)


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## nULL (29 Oct 2004)

People's lives change. While one's desire to join the forces may be strong for months, life goes on, independently. For instance, were I to get into the forces _right now_ i would have to cut my hours back at work and drop a uni class of mine on thursday nights. I knew when I took the extra shifts and signed up for the class that there would be a potential timetable problem, but after months and months of waiting, I stopped factoring the forces into my short term planning. I mean, I spent last summer sitting on my *** because I had planned to be at BMQ - only wasn't. 

EDIT: That aside though, _they_ are trying to recruit _me._ Why should I fight them? When I watched Fahrenheit 9/11, I remember being amazed at how the Marine recruiters would actually hunt for recruits.


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## MdB (29 Oct 2004)

pbi, as you I think Pieman stated pretty much the issue why the CF want to accelerate and optimize the recruiting process. The CF can't afford to lose any good candidates. It's too much a competitive job market we're in. To lose them because of the waiting is a dumb problem. On the other side, I don't think, the recruiting process is something you can't survive. I can understand someone who's 18-19 to be eager to get in though. BUT, we must mention that someone who really wants to get in waits and get through the process.

That said, recceguy mentionned that there was no problem back in the '70s, and considering it has become a way more time-effective process since, is this only the bottleneck of medical personnel or is it a really bigger problem we have here?

I like your propositions, but from my point of view (ie outside the military) it seems that the Forces are really too far streched to crank up the throughput of recruiting. As I see it, the army personnel is overworked between garrison duty, deployment, and training... and instructing. Even though we still have the infrastructure to accept more candidates than we do now, would it be true to say that we haven't enough personnel put in CFRCs, medical, CFLRS, CIC, etc. to reduce that waiting? Because after all, it's not only a matter of checking medical status, interview running, etc., but also to place those canditates in the right courses and right course series (infantry, pilot, MP, welder, etc).

Another thing not to forget is that the process has probably higher standards than in the '70s, but for the minimum physical requirements. But I can't compare since I don't have any infos on that.


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## a_majoor (29 Oct 2004)

Few sad observations: 

When I joined in 81, I had three pieces of paper to sign. Today's recruit has a mountain of forms.

This brigade looses so many potential recruits due to the inefficient and slow system. If we were to actually get everyone who walked in the door (before they slam the door on the way out in frustration), the attrition problem would be ended and the Brigade would be growing.

IF we did get all those recruits, there would be a big bottleneck in the training system (not enough MCpl's and Sgt's to train them), and the supply system (We would have a hard time dressing them, much less equipping them with rifles, radios and machineguns to train with.)

The CF did a big recruiting drive just a few years ago in an attempt to hale the death spiral (at one point it was projected the CF would have only @ 46,000 effective strength). Recruiting shot up and lots of people were stuffed into the pipeline, only to end up in "holding battalions" in Borden wainting a year or more for their courses to start.

The best solution would be to "throttle down" the number of actual recruits to what the system could handle.


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## Tracker (29 Oct 2004)

Lets figure out where the wait is.   An applicant has to fill out the "mountains of forms" correctly.   An application form and screening and consent form are hardly mountains.   An ROTP applicant has one more form to add to this mountain.   An applicant who has less than ten years residency in Canada can add another form to his mountain.   Maybe the school system has failed us because half the applications I see are filled out wrong or are illegible and have to be redone.

If you have former service, a verification is done (VFS).   All processing stops until we find your Med Docs and service record.   An easy way around this is to ensure that you go on the SRR list when you release.

Next, the applicant is booked for an aptitude test (CFAT).   In Toronto we have the capacity to test less than 20 applicants a day.   An applicant must meet a minimun score to be able to go on.   Some people have no problem with the CFAT, some tube it.   If an applicant tubes the CFAT, they must wait three months to rewrite, all processing stops until the applicant meets the min score, it used to be one year.   Again, it must be the school system because we test language and math at a grade ten level.

If an applicant has been in Canada less than ten years they require a Pre- Secure.   This is done to see if the applicant can obtain a Level 1 security clearance.   The CF does not conduct this procedure, DPM SEC does.   This procedure can actually take years, but would you want to be in a trench with someone who has a questionable background?   Again, all processing stops until the applicant is granted level 1.   If we bypass this and enroll an applicant because he might become discouraged and give up, we might find later, after training that he is unable to obtain a level 1 clearance and is unemployable.   We can blame world events for this increase in security.

The next step is the Canadian Forces Physical Fitness Test, (CFPFT).   An applicant must meet a minimum score, if not they must go away and come back to try again.   All processing stops until the applicant can pass the CFPFT.   I don't know who to blame for this, how about Nintendo or computers.

Next, a criminal record name check (CRNC) is done.   All kinds of things may surface here, unpaid parking tickets that have gone to collection, debts that gone to collection, that sort of thing will stop processing until you sort it out and satisfy the CF that it will never happen again.

The medical is done next, this subject has been beaten to death.   If you have a medical problem, we don't need you to be a liability because of it, life in the CF is hazardous enough.   Thats as far as I'm going with this point, I'm not a medical professional.

The interview is next.   The Military Career Councillor (MCC) who conducts your interview has a set of guidelines that must be followed and a series of questions that must be asked.   You might not be suitable for the CF or the occupation you have chosen because of your answers.   This is not an uncommon way of screening applicants, most big businesses will require you to do an interview.   The MCC may find you temporarily unsuitable and place a time restriction on you,(little johnny is a nutcase with no social skills, bring file forward in six months to see if his situation has changed).   Processing stops until you are found to be suitable.

Now the waiting game begins, your file goes to review boards, most sit twice a year to select applicants.   Some people score low throughout the application process and are never selected.   Thats a fact of life, thats what selection is all about, not everyone gets an offer and you might have to wait for several review boards before they get to you.

If you don't agree with this process or any of the steps, you can always talk with your Member of Parliament.   If your MP feels that you have a legit complaint, they will talk with the Minister of National Defence who may launch a Ministerial Inquiry and investigate the process to see if your treatment was within the policies laid out for CF Recruitment.

These policies are not set by CFRC's or CFRG and complaining about or to CFRC or CFRG will get little results.


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## pbi (30 Oct 2004)

> I like your propositions, but from my point of view (ie outside the military) it seems that the Forces are really too far streched to crank up the throughput of recruiting. As I see it, the army personnel is overworked between garrison duty, deployment, and training... and instructing. Even though we still have the infrastructure to accept more candidates than we do now, would it be true to say that we haven't enough personnel put in CFRCs, medical, CFLRS, CIC, etc. to reduce that waiting? Because after all, it's not only a matter of checking medical status, interview running, etc., but also to place those canditates in the right courses and right course series (infantry, pilot, MP, welder, etc).
> 
> Another thing not to forget is that the process has probably higher standards than in the '70s, but for the minimum physical requirements. But I can't compare since I don't have any infos on that.



And therein lies the conundrum: we can't get bigger, faster until we get bigger. Recruiting work is traditionally done by NCOs and officers, the same people who are in short supply and high demand as leaders in units and as instructor cadres in schools and ATCs. We cannot just fill the gaps "willy nilly" with anybody, because will end up with utterly unsuitable people in the CFRCs. Believe me: we have been through an episode of that with one of the CFRC Dets in our Bde AO and it was quite painful. The damage that incompetents or malcontents dumped  in such  positions can do must be seen to be believed....

Perhaps bringing individuals off the SRR might provide the ability to increase the capacity to process all of the documentation, but the problem that has been very clearly identified to 38 CBG by CFRG in the past is the medical bottleneck at Borden. Why medical review cannot be contracted out escapes me: what do we plan to do in an emergency? I mean....we have thought that out, right....it's in the "_Mobilization Plan_".....isn't it? Or are we just going to go chasing madly after the same little pool of officers and NCOs that everybody and his dog will be chasing after at the same time?

Cheers.


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## pbi (30 Oct 2004)

> These policies are not set by CFRC's or CFRG and complaining about or to CFRC or CFRG will get little results



OK.....recommended course of action is?

Cheers.


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## arctictern (30 Oct 2004)

If you can't beat them, join them.


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## PARAMEDIC (30 Oct 2004)

whats wrong with our army ...nothing

but the question should be whats wrong with the people governing our army. The beaurcrats and the bs red tape that goes along with every decision our army tries to make. The government has become to lax and lathargic  in trying to keep its citizens safe, theyy have been lulled into a false sense of security that our nation cannot be attack on home turf.....sort of post 911 american mentaliity, It would be a rude awakening for us, if history repeated itself on us and also a major shame that we needed an event that dramatic for our government to start splurigng on our army.( yeah economic situations and all things have been taken into consideration)

This goodwill, salvation army type of mentality on buying used equipment has got to go.

hey i just woke up saw the post and started to fire away, so spelling grammar and niity details are out the window ;D 
I will review this post when I actually wake up.. after a good cup of Timmy's


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## MdB (30 Oct 2004)

pbi said:
			
		

> And therein lies the conundrum: we can't get bigger, faster until we get bigger. Recruiting work is traditionally done by NCOs and officers, the same people who are in short supply and high demand as leaders in units and as instructor cadres in schools and ATCs.



I heard the Fed Gov't is trying to not enter new missions in the next 2 years that would need a lot of personnel deployed in order to rectify the situation, which is we haven't enough people now to train enough officer candidates and recruits just to level the problem (not fall under 50k personnel). At least, we would have enough personnel not in a pre-deployment/deployment/post-deployment process. As I read, CF are facing a big attrition problem and just recruiting around 5000 (and that's optimistic) new members won't be enough in the next years due to retirements. So, here's another problem unfolded. On one side, it's now mandatory to recruit more to block the attrition. On the other, we must face reality that the CF have suffered 10 years of cut backs during the 90s and now the problems are blatant and that now the Fed Gov't is obliged let a brake to the CF concerning deployments if they want to rectify this situation.

I really think that's the context we're in. That including systemic problem like not enough MCC, medical personnel to process the medical tests, and instructing personnel.

Hmm, let's stay positive, the least we can say.


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## DMOS (2 Nov 2004)

Pieman said:
			
		

> I totally disagree with this. Making young, energetic, people with a drive for success are going to have more than just the Army as an opportunity in their life. Do you really think that a person who has a lot of options is going to sit around and just wait for the CF to process their forms?
> 
> 'No sorry, I can't take a 3 year contract to judge supermodel bathing suit contests....my CF application is in and I am waiting...could be any year now.'
> 
> Also, people who are recent graduates from university and want to enter a DEO program often have a high debt load. They simply have to get into a career that makes money quickly, and like any career that takes a commitment. If one takes a good job for a large company and simply walks away from it, that is very irresponsible, and they will certainly have a hard time getting a job in that field again. They simply cannot afford to sit around and wait for the CF.



I'm in this exact situation.  While somewhat patiently waiting for the board to sit processing my application... I have a civilian offer to table myself now.  I know I'd like very much to join in the DEO, and put my eng degree to what I consider a real use.  But honestly, with OSAP and Queen's kicking down my door looking for money, the question is more "can I afford to wait for them, instead of making money elsewhere?".  Maybe it's partly my fault for not doing my app while still in school, but instead weighed my options after I had recovered from exams and enjoyed for a few weeks the fact that I had finally completed my degree.  As was said in the quote above, it's financially irresponsible to turn down a civilian position that's going to pay me more and start now, than wait for the CF to get their act in gear and tell me "yes" or "no" and pull me out of limbo.  I just hope I can put off telling the civillian position my decision till after this board meets...


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## Northern Touch (2 Nov 2004)

Ok, it was touched upon breifly, but does anybody know what the specific cause for the long wait on CT's?

I mean, If i was considering goign regs and needed a CT, from people on this board and from what i've heard, it could take almost 8 months or even longer.  I don't know the process, but it seems dismall to me that a trained soldier needs 8 months to go from Res. to Regs.  That is WAY too much time, especialyl when a lot of people are comming out of school and can find jobs a lot easier and quicker then 8 months, which pay more as well.  Of course, if someone wanted the army, they would wait it out, but everyone can get frustrated and everyone can get annoyed with the system and just say "fuck it".  

So can someone explain or maybe enlighten me as to why it can take longer to switch a trained soldier from Reg to Res. then to hire a completely untrained civilian?


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## NavyGrunt (2 Nov 2004)

Because we are not really a concern. Our files are on the back burner because we are already in the military and we dont "increase the numbers". I'm already on month 9 and I have another 6 to go....


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## Northern Touch (2 Nov 2004)

Aaron White said:
			
		

> Because we are not really a concern. Our files are on the back burner because we are already in the military and we dont "increase the numbers". I'm already on month 9 and I have another 6 to go....



Ya, but we sure "decrease training costs" and add another number to the Reg Force.


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## Tracker (2 Nov 2004)

When you apply for a component transfer, your unit orderly room has to get your paperwork to a CFRC.  You have just become their lowest priority because you are a lost number to them.  They have paid for your training up to that date and don't want to lose you from their effective strength.  Once (if) your paperwork reaches the CFRC, you will have to go through the same process (med, pt, interview) as you did before.


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