# Did the Army Loose A Lot Of Troops?



## Verge1993 (19 Jul 2013)

Did they loose a lot of troops out in the western area? From what I've been reading and all the Infantry on my BMQ Serial are all going to be stationed with the PPCLI. There are 5 Infantry out of the 7 guys I've meet so far. All going out west.


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## PuckChaser (19 Jul 2013)

Think about that for a second. You're posted to Edmonton. Your friends are rig workers making 3x the money you are as an Inf Pte. There's no prospects on the horizon for deployment. Sometimes the grass is greener, sometimes it isn't.


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## Verge1993 (19 Jul 2013)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Think about that for a second. You're posted to Edmonton. Your friends are rig workers making 3x the money you are as an Inf Pte. There's no prospects on the horizon for deployment. Sometimes the grass is greener, sometimes it isn't.



Yeah that is true, I was in Fort McMurray making $32.52 an hour but just didn't like the job. Then I re-enrolled into the Military again once my year was up since I left the Reserves. I guess its really all personal opinion. All of my friends who I went to school with are now up there working too. I just loved the Military I life. When I was in the reserves I felt that working once a week and maybe getting to go on a tasking once every 2 months was not enough..


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## Old EO Tech (19 Jul 2013)

I think the "no prospects for deployments on the horizon" is the largest factor in Inf releases.  Having easy access to jobs just makes the decision easier if you have a family.

For Corps like RCEME we are losing senior managers to the oil fields simply because of the money and the respect the oil companies have for our skill sets.  In fact we are calling Fort McMurray, 6 Svc Bn :-/


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## Bzzliteyr (19 Jul 2013)

Ex-military in Fort Mac?!?!  Say it ain't so!!


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## MikeL (19 Jul 2013)

Verge1993 said:
			
		

> Did they loose a lot of troops out in the western area? From what I've been reading and all the Infantry on my BMQ Serial are all going to be stationed with the PPCLI. There are 5 Infantry out of the 7 guys I've meet so far. All going out west.



Keep in mind BMQ serials are large, and there are many more recruits that will be on that course that you haven't met on this site.  You may have met 5 from this site who got PPCLI as their Regiment affiliation, but you could meet another 7 who got RCR on your course.  The view you have on this is rather limited, and a poor way to determine if a high percentage of PPCLI soldiers left the military compared to the other Regiments IMO.

Either way, I'm sure a number of troops in all 3 Regiments have left at the end of their contracts(and possibly VR'd) to seek employment in the civilian world.


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## Fishbone Jones (19 Jul 2013)

Did the Army *loose* a lot of troops?

or 

Did the Army *lose* a lot of troops?

Yes. The question is rhetorical.


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## cjette1 (19 Jul 2013)

The only thing I heard (In regards to PPCLI) is that they have a lot of spaces this fiscal year. The people I spoke to at my RC were saying numbers in the 100's for PPCLI. I'm not sure what it's looking like for RCR but I would imagine similar. Also take into account, Alberta culture is a bit different for young guys. Would you rather be able to buy a brand new car workin the rigs for a couple of months or leave it all and join the army and make half the salary?

That's just my observation.


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## PPCLI Guy (20 Jul 2013)

The Infantry Corps is badly unbalanced right now.  For this year and the next, the majority of new intake will go Patricia.


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## Old EO Tech (20 Jul 2013)

cjette1 said:
			
		

> The only thing I heard (In regards to PPCLI) is that they have a lot of spaces this fiscal year. The people I spoke to at my RC were saying numbers in the 100's for PPCLI. I'm not sure what it's looking like for RCR but I would imagine similar. Also take into account, Alberta culture is a bit different for young guys. Would you rather be able to buy a brand new car workin the rigs for a couple of months or leave it all and join the army and make half the salary?
> 
> That's just my observation.



I don't have specific numbers, but it would not surprise me that Edmonton has a higher attrition rate than Pet does.  The Ottawa valley is the most depressed region in Ontario, always has been, so there is not the easy job opportunities for bored infanteers to easily jump ship.  The opposite is true in Edmonton.


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## Tow Tripod (20 Jul 2013)

It's always interesting to read about soldiers leaving the PPCLI for whatever reasons but their is never anything said about troops that get out and then get back in 6 or 9 months later. Many of them will tell you that they really didn't enjoy working in Fort Mac and say the army is a better option in the long run.
As for getting out because their are no operational tours other than Op Attention I would say to that be careful what you wish for. You never know what despot filthy country the government of Canada will decide to "assist" in the future.
2 cents and free of charge comment.


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## fake penguin (20 Jul 2013)

I did a Google search on the attrition rate of the Canadian Forces.  In the website of the Canada News Centre it says from April 1 2009 to March 31 2010 5,293 left the military, while 7,522 join up. Reading a study by Major Mark N. Popov stated while the attrition rate was 7.6%, soldiers that voluntary released was 4.7%. Both say the Forces is around 68000 to 69000 people. Simple math will tell you 40% of people releasing are not voluntary. So it looks like not only is the CF gaining more men then losing, but a lot of releases are not voluntary. What percentages are medical released or 5F? Also out of the 60% that are voluntary how many get back in like Tow Tripod said. I know guys on here are talking specifically about PPCLI and the question was did the Army lose a lot of guys not the CF as a whole, but I thought the articles I read might have some value.


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## fake penguin (20 Jul 2013)

Believe or not as I was reading through the articles last night, I didn't read from beginning or end I skimmed through them. The word count of the Major Mark N Popov is close to 20000 words. But it says that the paper cannot be released quoted or copied without permission from the  Canadian Department of National Defense. Now I quoted what  the article said was the voluntary attrition rate. My mistake I hope the Mods can forgive me and just delete my last post before this.


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## Edward Campbell (20 Jul 2013)

Here is a link to the article which is Major Mark Popov's thesis for a Master of Defence Studies degree awarded by the Royal Military College.

Fig 1.2 on p. 6 and Fig 1-6 on p. 19 are of interest.


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## UnwiseCritic (20 Jul 2013)

Does anyone have a better break down of Canadian forces strategy allocations? On Pg 20.


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## Towards_the_gap (21 Jul 2013)

I left 5 months ago, and no where in the release process did anyone try and convince me to stay. 

Just thought it was worth mentioning having read Maj Popov's article.


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## dapaterson (21 Jul 2013)

Attrition can be a bit of a red herring: any organization, to remain healthy, requires new intake.  A hierarchical organization like the CF which is largely closed to lateral intake even more so - the CF doesn't hire Majors or Warrant officers off the street.

Thus, the question should be "What rate of attrition at what rank levels is needed, for each occupation in the CF?"  Any fixation on short-term may result in sub-optimal results.  An occupation may appear "healthy" but in fact have many people about to enter traditional exit gates (end of VIE, CE or IE, or reaching the 20 /25 pensionable points) and thus be at risk and need intake; other occupations may appear to be short but have a large BTL nearing the OFP and thus not require significant intake.

Infantryman is a different situation.  It's an occupation where the CF can afford to take some risk, as the entry requirements are not onerous, the training is straightforward and relatively short, and there is large depth in the Primary Reserve for augmentation if required.  Thus, deficits at the Pte/Cpl rank in the Reg F infantryman occupation may be an acceptable area of risk for the CF writ large.


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## Ostrozac (21 Jul 2013)

The real risk in the RC Infantry Corps isn't pure attrition numbers -- it's that the regiments are at risk of becoming unbalanced. The knock-on effect of the PPCLI having higher attrition rates over a long period of time could, if not closely monitored, lead to negative things. Taken to the extreme, it could mean that ERE positions (Infantry School, Reserve Units, Canadian Rangers, HQ) get overly assigned to The RCR and the R22eR because they have the people for it -- but exposure to life outside the battalions is a major part of career development, and keeping PPCLI personnel in the "high-attrition zone" of Edmonton for their whole careers may just feed into the problem.

Swapping 1 or 3 PPCLI with one of the RCR battalions in Petawawa might be the most elegant solution -- that way both the PPCLI and The RCR can share the attrition problems of Edmonton -- and each regiment has a battalion in the low-attrition zone of Petawawa.

As someone who's spent a lot of time in Pet, I find it somewhat amusing that the Ottawa Valley and all its options for entertainment and spousal employment actually encourages people to stay in the CF, but the numbers don't lie.

How's attrition in Shilo? Does 2 PPCLI share the same release problems as 1 and 3? Is there enough infrastructure and room to move one of the battalions from Edmonton to Shilo?


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## Tow Tripod (21 Jul 2013)

Forget moving to Shilo. If and when the British Army leaves Suffield I could see units from Edmonton moving down south again. There is just to much sound infrastructure there to go to waste. I'm sure their are people in i
senior positions eying that place up.


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## George Wallace (21 Jul 2013)

Tow Tripod said:
			
		

> Forget moving to Shilo. If and when the British Army leaves Suffield I could see units from Edmonton moving down south again. There is just to much sound infrastructure there to go to waste. I'm sure their are people in i
> senior positions eying that place up.



You are using logic and some common sense.  Remember: the Dunning-Kruger Effect is strong in Ottawa.


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## UnwiseCritic (21 Jul 2013)

Bring 3vp back to Victoria then no one would leave by choice.


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## PPCLI Guy (21 Jul 2013)

Tow Tripod said:
			
		

> Forget moving to Shilo. If and when the British Army leaves Suffield I could see units from Edmonton moving down south again. There is just to much sound infrastructure there to go to waste. I'm sure their are people in i
> senior positions eying that place up.



I have heard that one as well, but the resistance is significant due to the requirement for a) investment in order to save money in the long run, b) concerns about political impact, and c) it is hard to do...


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## GAP (21 Jul 2013)

The experience of 2 PPCLI moving from Winnipeg to Shilo should give the CF a clear vision of the turmoil a move like that would make....


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## George Wallace (21 Jul 2013)

There are already other units that may benefit from placing some troops; not all, into Suffield.  The NBC/CRBN School in Borden.  Trg Section of CJIRU.  

We already know that the Trg Area alone offers a lot of room for large scale Ex's, that would provide a large and different environment that both Gagetown and Wainwright do not.


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## Tow Tripod (21 Jul 2013)

Many ifs but if the Conservative government lost the next election and JT is our next PM I think all bets would be off the table. The cost cutting that the Conservatives have started could roll into "high gear". It would take one study to show the cost effectiveness of moving units from CFB Edmonton to CFB Suffield and the new PM would be all over it like a fat kid in a candy store. That of course would be depended that the British Army does infact close shop at CFB Suffield.
I'm pretty sure the Liberal party of Canada was in power when we made the big move from Calgary to Edmonton in 1997.


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## Journeyman (21 Jul 2013)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> For this year and the next, the majority of new intake will go Patricia.


 Lucky bastards!  


      :stirpot:


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## PPCLI Guy (21 Jul 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Lucky bastards!
> 
> 
> :stirpot:



Indeed they are....


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## cjette1 (21 Jul 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Lucky bastards!



Believe me that doesn't bother me in the least. I respect both the RCR and PPCLI, but the PPCLI has a rich history in my family. I hope to one day call the regiment my home as well. 

On another note, I'm a bit confused about people comparing attrition rates in both infantry regiments. What are some factors that contribute to the unbalanced effect? Does it have anything to do with the relationship of CFB Edmonton and Petawawa to their surrounding area?


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## GAP (21 Jul 2013)

try reading the posts above the one you are responding to.......amazingly they have the information....


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## mariomike (21 Jul 2013)

cjette1 said:
			
		

> On another note, I'm a bit confused about people comparing attrition rates in both infantry regiments. What are some factors that contribute to the unbalanced effect? Does it have anything to do with the relationship of CFB Edmonton and Petawawa to their surrounding area?



You may find some answers here.

Comparing the Regiments (PPCLI, RCR, and R22eR) and thier bases  
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/25214.0.html?PHPSESSID=ii3tnrtk06m37c36hm9jpsr3g7


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## dapaterson (21 Jul 2013)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Journeyman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Which are they?  Lucky or bastards?


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## cjette1 (21 Jul 2013)

mariomike said:
			
		

> You may find some answers here.
> 
> Comparing the Regiments (PPCLI, RCR, and R22eR) and thier bases
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/25214.0.html?PHPSESSID=ii3tnrtk06m37c36hm9jpsr3g7



Appreciate the link Mario, but my question was about why (for this year specifically) recruiting numbers seemed a lot higher for PPCLI than the other two regiments.


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## JorgSlice (22 Jul 2013)

cjette1 said:
			
		

> Appreciate the link Mario, but my question was about why (for this year specifically) recruiting numbers seemed a lot higher for PPCLI than the other two regiments.



It was already explained like 4 posts up. Attrition to the oilfields.


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## ballz (22 Jul 2013)

cjette1 said:
			
		

> Appreciate the link Mario, but my question was about why (for this year specifically) recruiting numbers seemed a lot higher for PPCLI than the other two regiments.



Ahh... you may find some answers here... http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/111423.0.html


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## JorgSlice (22 Jul 2013)

ballz said:
			
		

> Ahh... you may find some answers here... http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/111423.0.html



:rofl:

ballz saves the day once again!


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## Journeyman (22 Jul 2013)

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> Swapping 1 or 3 PPCLI with one of the RCR battalions in Petawawa might be the most elegant solution -- that way both the PPCLI and The RCR can share the attrition problems of Edmonton -- and each regiment has a battalion in the low-attrition zone of Petawawa.


That's harsh.  

I'm mean, sure, the addition of a VP Bn would do wonders for broadening the DNA pool north of 7....but you'd end up with a Bn of broken Royals -- not understanding why no one wants to paint rocks with them; the RSM marching up and down the parade square all by himself; the neighbours shunning them for keeping chickens in the yard...in lingerie.  Look what happened when they tried putting RCR in Winnipeg; by the time the backlash worked its way through various bureaucracies, 2PPCLI wore it by getting shipped out to Shilo.

It just wouldn't work.


           ;D  <--- this means "not _too_ serious"


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## Old EO Tech (27 Jul 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Here is a link to the article which is Major Mark Popov's thesis for a Master of Defence Studies degree awarded by the Royal Military College.
> 
> Fig 1.2 on p. 6 and Fig 1-6 on p. 19 are of interest.



Interesting read, though I think his conclusions on retention bonuses were a bit "soft" instead of actually stating the CF should use targeted RB as the Aussies do as it clearly works.  Despite the CF rhetoric that they don't work.  Yes as he stated there are many other very valid factors that keep people happy and retains them, but all other things being equal, if you offer someone that is basically happy some money to stay in and retain his/her skill set for 5 more years, rather than lose them to the oil fields or other industries.  They will work and are well worth the investment.


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