# leo replacement?



## slaymight (21 Oct 2006)

ok im sure this has been discussed before..but im a tad bit confused. With the mgs idea gone down the drain, is the mmev the leo replacement? or is there some other plan made out to replace them?

thx for ur info/patients


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## George Wallace (21 Oct 2006)

slaymight said:
			
		

> ok im sure this has been discussed before..but im a tad bit confused. With the mgs idea gone down the drain, is the mmev the leo replacement? or is there some other plan made out to replace them?



Lots of Topics on the subject of the MGS and Leo replacement in both the Vehicle Forums and the Armour Forums.  I am sure that you will be much more informed if you checked them out.




			
				slaymight said:
			
		

> thx for ur info/patients




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## ringo (21 Oct 2006)

IMHO there is still a place in CAF's for MBT's as well as SPH's, AVLB's, AEV's and ARV's.
If Canada were to deploy amphib's then a few BARV's should be purchased.
Heavy Armoured Personnel Carriers and a few Gepard like AA vehicles would not be out of place.

Numbers need not be large but sufficient for a heavy armoured unit.


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## Pte.Shrubb (21 Oct 2006)

I have heard that Germany has offered to sell us 66 Leopard A4's. The money for this would of course come from the funds from the MGS project.


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## Infanteer (21 Oct 2006)

Try and refrain from "I heard" unless you something to validate the claim - all you're doing is muddying the waters around here.


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## Pte.Shrubb (21 Oct 2006)

It comes from a rather creditable source but due to the fact that it hasn't been released to the general public that is why I decided to say "I heard".


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## Infanteer (21 Oct 2006)

Perhaps, if it isn't released to the public, then your credible source is not interested in seeing you put his source material up for the general public.


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## George Wallace (21 Oct 2006)

This is where one is wise to check the profile of the person making such statements as "I was told by a friend of a friend, that a Reliable Source said...." comes in so handy.


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## KevinB (21 Oct 2006)

Pte.Shrubb said:
			
		

> It comes from a rather creditable source but due to the fact that it hasn't been released to the general public that is why I decided to say "I heard".


 :
From a 17yr old res pte...

in an R031 line serial...








BUT -- I would not be surprised if give the hat colors the the MDN, CDS and DCDS - that they beyond all others probably have a desire to see that so.


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## Pte.Shrubb (21 Oct 2006)

Its funny that you don't know who told me this information. So I will tell you. My father told me all of this. I think he knows what he is talking about and knows a little more on the subject then some of you people on here. And as for the comment on how I am a 17 year old reservist, its nice that you discourage some of the things that people are doing without personally knowing them. The reasons as to why I am still a reservist is because I am to young to join the regular forces. 



Note - I edited out the personal reference.


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## vonGarvin (21 Oct 2006)

Then let's keep it private and keep it from open speculation.  See my thread re: what would we name a new tank?  "Steve" is currently winning


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## Slim (24 Oct 2006)

Pte.Shrubb said:
			
		

> Its funny that you don't know who told me this information. So I will tell you. My father told me all of this. I think he knows what he is talking about and knows a little more on the subject then some of you people on here. And as for the comment on how I am a 17 year old reservist, its nice that you discourage some of the things that people are doing without personally knowing them. The reasons as to why I am still a reservist is because I am to young to join the regular forces.



This sort of peeing contest is what gets people in trouble on this forum all the time. There are some on this board who are very much in the know on a wide range of subjects both inside and outside the CF. You may know your dad and have tremendous amount of respect for him (which is a good if rare thing these days) but you DO NOT know some of the people that you are conversing with.

We have officers up to and including general rank that come here to chat...Are you sure you REALLY know who your talking to?!

Consider this to be your freebee...I am one of the most lenient of mods on this board, and I feel that you have stepped out of line in this thread. Others may not have the tolerance for newer members of the CF..especially ones still in their teens that DO NOT AND CANNOT have thorough understanding of the Forces at their level of experience.

Sit back and read, don't just jump in with comments like those...You'll find yourself on the wrong end of a warning if you do.

Advice here is free. Take and read your copy please 

Slim
STAFF


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## tlg (24 Oct 2006)

All hail the mighty slim.

As for the leo replacement, we will know what is going to replace the leo when the high brass decides to tell the lower peons what is going to replace the leo. Until then, who cares except for naming the thing? I prefer "BOB" or "FRED" myself, but if I can't have thsoe, then "STEVE" will do.


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## ringo (25 Oct 2006)

On Tanknet there is a posting that Norway is considering giving 100+ Leo1's to Afgan army.


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## Eland (26 Oct 2006)

I wouldn't rag on Pte Shrubb too much. He heard something from someone about the Leopards, and until we see something corroboratory from officialdom, what he heard is probably just one of a bazillion rumours that float around in the military every day.

There may be a grain of truth of what he is saying. The Germans have repeatedly offered to sell Canada (and other countries) some of their surplus Leopard 2A4's. You know how rumours get started - on the tiniest bit of information. It could be that how this rumour got started is that the Germans have in fact approached DND about buying some tanks, and DND may simply be examining the proposal.

Give the kid a break, eh? He's young. He's enthusiastic about what he's doing. He'll learn when to say something and when not to say something.


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## KevinB (26 Oct 2006)

Eland -- two things - 1) He should not be repeating info that is not public domain here.
                              2) His father should not be confiding in his son info that is not public domain when his son has zero need to know.


I think the US has a number of M1A1/A2 Tanks that they are mothballing with their force strcuture changes...   I believe that our strategic goals are much more common with the Americans than the Germans - and would favour US kit over German.


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## canuck101 (26 Oct 2006)

M1A1/A2 Tanks can be refitted with diesel engines just like the Australians have done.


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## vonGarvin (26 Oct 2006)

All things being equal, the M1 A2 (SEP) and the Leo 2A6 are both fabulous tanks.  The Leo, IMHO, has a _slight _ edge, however.  Firstly, its fire control system is slightly better than the M1 A2 (SEP) (from what I understand), and secondly, the Leo is the same width as the Leo C2.  The M1 would not fit inside our hangars here in Canada.  Sound trivial?  Try presenting a bill for new hangars to public works and see how much *that * is.


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## geo (26 Oct 2006)

Heh.... I've got a chainsaw for ya if you want on


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## ringo (27 Oct 2006)

I don't believe the Oz M1's have exchanged there turbines for diesels, they have been fitted with a new APU however.


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## Slim (27 Oct 2006)

von Garvin said:
			
		

> The Leo, IMHO, has a _slight _ edge, however.  Firstly, its fire control system is slightly better than the M1 A2 *that * is.



Everyone does know that the fire control system either is or used to be made right here in Canada for the M-1. I believe that the current fire control system in the Leo that we have right now is better than the M-1 system...However it's been awhile and it could be just the M-1 A1 that I'm talking about.

Secondly (and this is a blanket statement

Army.Ca does not encourage its members to deal in inuendo, rumours, gross amounts of idle speculation or the like. These boards are for facts...Not "Hey I heard the the CF is buying flying saucers to send to A'stan nest week!"

Its what sets us apart and makes us the "professional e-board for members past and present to chat on.


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## vonGarvin (27 Oct 2006)

You're right (re: rumours).  I was just talking about my own wish list, as it were.  I don't even know if the government will replace the Leopards.  All I know is that (a) I made a typo in my original post and (b) it's sunny out today.  Anything more than that is wild speculation and not the realm of this forum.

:cheers:


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## George Wallace (27 Oct 2006)

von Garvin said:
			
		

> .......  The M1 would not fit inside our hangars here in Canada.  Sound trivial?  Try presenting a bill for new hangars to public works and see how much *that * is.



Well, if they didn't skimp on money and cut down the size of the doors in the hangar blueprints/design, it wouldn't be a problem.  Funny how someone in a desk job in Ottawa thinks that by cutting down on the size of the doors in the design, (s)he can save the Government Billions, only to find out that the Hangar when constructed has doors too small to fit the vehicles it was designed for.  :   (I have seen it done.  ;D  They should have left the design work to "Tankers".)


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## vonGarvin (27 Oct 2006)

So true, George, and one problem with 'stove piping' stuff like that is that when it all comes together, we are stuck with trying to put a round peg into a square hole.


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## a_majoor (27 Oct 2006)

I remember seeing the results of the hanger door thing while doing work-up training in the RCD lines. An entirely new hanger had to be built (what a huge cost saving that turned out to be!)

This sort of thinking is endemic to the Forces, or perhaps to Public Works; in the new Windsor Armouries, the vehicle bay doors are almost "shrink wrapped" around the trucks. Never mind what will happen when MLVW/HLVW replacements eventually appear, a moment of inattention by a driver or ground guide will cost DND far more than was "saved" by making these doors too small in the first place.

WRT replacement tanks, there are lots of potential solutions out there, ranging from taking surplus M1 or Leopard 2's "as is", taking and modifying these tanks, or ordering new ones (such as the CV-90120). We could even comb through the thousands of surplus Leopard A-1's or M-60's for a total rebuild program such as the Israeli Magach 7. The technical aspects are actually simple, what is needed is clear direction (what we want to do with these tanks, i.e. expeditionary force or heavy force structure), resources available (money, manpower and ongoing support) and the political will to do so.


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## George Wallace (27 Oct 2006)

a_majoor 

I knew as soon as they laid the foundation that the doors were going to be too small.  Even took pictures for posterity.  

I had left the Armour School a few years earlier, and noticed the waste being made, when they laid the foundations to the new Combat Training Center.  I am no Engineer, but a little bit of common sense tells one that a multi-story concrete and brick building being built in swamp land needs more than a three to four foot foundation.  Again, I took photos for my own amusement.

How many stories have we heard from Meaford, Wainwright, Gagetown, etc.  of these new buildings leaking water from their windows and skylights and the walls developing gigantic cracks?  Going the 'Cheap Route' is the most expensive route.

Whoops!  Hijack.  Please return now to the regularly scheduled program.


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## Cdn Blackshirt (27 Oct 2006)

Just on a side note, I believe I read in the last couple of months that the Swedes are getting ready to decommission all of the Strv 121's (LEO 2a4's originally bought used from the Germans but modified to operate in Sweden's winter climate).

If you're going to need to do an electronics update anyway to match-up with Canadian comm standards, that may not be a bad place to start....


Matthew.   



> In 1994, 160 used Leopard 2 MBTs were procured from Germany. The vehicles have been adapted to Swedish conditions, under the name "Stridsvagn 121".
> 
> MBT 121 has a crew of four and armament consists of a 120 mm smooth-bore gun and two 7.52 mm machine guns. The vehicle has night-vision sights (IR) for the gunnner. Types of ammunition are armor-piercing fin-stabilized discarding sabot (APFSDS) and high-explosive anti-tank (HEAT). Forty-two rounds can be carried in the vehicle: 15 in the turret and the remainder in the chassis front left. The fire-control system allows for firing up to ranges of 4,000 m.
> 
> Combat weight is 55.2 tonnes. The vehicle has a 12-cylinder diesel engine of 1 500 HP. Maximum speed is 72 kph and range on roads and off-roads is 350 and 200 km, respectively. The driver has an image-intensifier for driving in the dark. Fording depth is down to 1.2 m.



Excellent Link with pics and details: http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2000/08/stuff_eng_svensson_strv121.htm


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## FormerHorseGuard (27 Oct 2006)

you have to realize that  what  you may or may not consider a cost saving factor is more of a budget game they play in big companies and governments.

you have pile A of money and Pile B and Pile C and  Pile D
A has money for the purchase of new equipment
B Has the money for the long term servicing of the new equipment
C is money from another budget and department that can be used for other things like buildings and repairs 
D is money for new buildings and equipment from another department

if you do not spend money from your Pile A and Pile B, you are saving your money or departments money.
Spend the other guys money and you are really saving money.
after many years of working on budgets and stuff I have learned better to spend the other guys money then your own.
that is how you save money


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## Eland (1 Nov 2006)

I know the subject of possible Leopard replacements is being discussed elsewhere in the army.ca forums. Let me at least say that it looks like Pte Shrubb might have been on to something when he made his initial post.


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## geo (1 Nov 2006)

yeah , possibly, maybe BUT, he didn't back up his statements with documented facts.  Newer articles are now talking about Swiss & German Leo2 surplus inventory, only driven by a little old lady from Stuttgart being offered at bargain basement prices (<400,000$)

Time will tell BUT before we buy anything, lets make sure we have the troops, doctrine and plans on how to employ em


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## FormerHorseGuard (1 Nov 2006)

i saw on the CTV 24 Hours News Channel that they were talking about buying used Leos from Europe and it was costing 350K per unit, and the cost of the USAF to deliver to the Rockpile was 1Million a unit. I wonder if it would be cheaper to deliver directly to the Rockpile from Europe?

if i had a spare 500 000 I would buy one for my second truck lol


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## orange.paint (1 Nov 2006)

It seems CTV knows more about it than we do here at the school.As stated earlier stick to what you know.When we "what if" things to death it suddenly gives a reporter a angle.

IE:



			
				FormerHorseGuard said:
			
		

> i saw on the CTV 24 Hours News Channel that they were talking about buying used Leos from Europe and it was costing 350K per unit, and the cost of the USAF to deliver to the Rockpile was 1Million a unit. I wonder if it would be cheaper to deliver directly to the Rockpile from Europe?
> 
> if i had a spare 500 000 I would buy one for my second truck lol



Later tonight we will be hearing about "what are Canada's plans for the newly purchased tanks?" A retired horse guard (sounds armoured and official) has leaked it would be cheaper to send right to what is affectionately known as  the "rockpile" to the soldiers.

I was actually writing out my response to your post formerhourseguard when I realised me putting in my view makes a reporters job easier.Now you'll have em calling PAFFO's tomorrow over a question they may have never thought of.

Never even heard of the new tanks till my coffee and oatmeal this morning.It ain't official as I do work in the college of knowledge.(so low on the totem pole I may move to the basement) 
No offence made just my point of view hourseguard,don't take it personal bud.

cheers
best regards
p.s 7 guest viewing this topic.


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## Cloud Cover (1 Nov 2006)

099* said:
			
		

> Never even heard of the new tanks till my coffee and oatmeal this morning.



What are you, 099* years old? Oatmeal?


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## The Bread Guy (1 Nov 2006)

A bit more history disguised as news information.....

 Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act - http://www.cb-cda.gc.ca/info/act-e.html#rid-33409

*Defence Department nixes proposal to buy tanks from Germany and Switzerland *  
Canadian Press, 1 Nov 06
http://www.recorder.ca/cp/National/061101/n110193A.html

OTTAWA (CP) - The Canadian military recently considered but ultimately rejected buying slightly used tanks from the German and Swiss armies, a spokesman said Wednesday. 

A team of staff officers, who monitor the military surplus-equipment market, did talk to both European countries last June about purchasing little-used A-4 and A-5 versions of the Leopard-2 tank. 

*"They were checking prices that were out there, but that staff check did not go any further," said Lieut. Adam Thomson. * 

_*The decision not to proceed was made last summer mostly because military planners had not identified a need for the armoured vehicles, he said. * _ 

"That's why they haven't considered it further," said Thomson. 

A new Leopard-2 tank goes for about US$6 million, but used ones can be had for US$350,000 .....


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## 54/102 CEF (1 Nov 2006)

Life and Death in DND Project Management - an inside joke for Bob or Fred


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## orange.paint (1 Nov 2006)

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> What are you, 099* years old? Oatmeal?



Nothing like "grits" in the morning sonny ;D!

They come flavored now,with apple chunks and stuff.

Back to the Leopard.


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## slaymight (4 Nov 2006)

With the mmev, isnt just a big waste of time and money (IMO)? because the army only getting what 33 units? would it make much of a difference for the forces?


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## Slim (4 Nov 2006)

slaymight said:
			
		

> With the mmev, isnt just a big waste of time and money (IMO)? because the army only getting what 33 units? would it make much of a difference for the forces?



I have a favour to ask please...Could you fill out your profile please so that others in this and other threads know who we're talking to and the level of expereince on a given subject that you may have?

Thanks

Slim
STAFF


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## FormerHorseGuard (4 Nov 2006)

in all honesty I thought maybe this was where the news people were getting some of their news stories because i read something here then i see it on the news a few days later. I wonder if it is a good time to start some sort wild rumour and see if the news people pick it and report on it.
as for the Leo I was just to what  would be said on cost saving measure of buying and shipping direct or would the fleet if purchased have to be sent to back to Canada to be done to Canadian Specs, or good to go after a safety check and DND plate?
oh well now hear it a no go so who cares


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## Desert Fox (29 Nov 2006)

I recently saw it on the CTV website (about a month ago) that the Germans do in fact have surplus Leopards they are willing to sell to us.... and we're looking at bargin prices.... they have made leaps and bounds in terms of newer verisons of this proven tank, and they have a stock pile of older ones by German standard (new by Canadian standard) that they want to move.

I'd like to our government go for it, and do what we did with the G-wagons when we first took delivery of them.... send them right over to A-stan where we could use them....


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