# 9 mm pistol as secondary weapon



## DrillDill (19 Sep 2009)

Hi everyone. 
I wanted to ask you if the Canadian army used a secondary hand weapon such as a 9 mm pistol. I believe the american army use one, if I'm not mistaken, at least the Marines do. So, what is the reason given for not using one in the regular army because I haven't seen no pistol training anywhere,

thank you


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## 1feral1 (19 Sep 2009)

The CF has been using the 9mm Browning No2 Mk 1* 'High Power', manufacted by John Inglis, from 1944 onwards. This is the standard pistol used today, although other types may be found in SF or MP service.

Try the search button.

OWDU


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## PMedMoe (19 Sep 2009)

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> Try the search button.



The search function is not working right now.

DrillDill, where have you been?  Are you even in the CF?  There is weapons training on almost every base.  I just did some this past week.


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## Nfld Sapper (19 Sep 2009)

Myself as a section commander, I did training and live fire with the 9mm this past spring.


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## gcclarke (19 Sep 2009)

The only pistol I've ever been trained upon is the 9mm Sig Sauer. It is also the only weapon that I've ever been issued for any purpose other than weapons training. 

Edit: Never mind, original posted specified Canadian Army, not Canadian Forces. My bad. Ignore the Navy guy in the corner.


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## Snaketnk (19 Sep 2009)

Every Infantry Pte and up I know is current on Pistol PWT 1, 2, and 3.

We're told each member will be carrying a 9mm in addition to his pers weapon. We carried our pistols for most non traditional ranges (jungle lanes, etc.)


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## Colin Parkinson (19 Sep 2009)

The only reason the Navy got the Sig was that the Senior Brass heard it had a "Decocker" and they figured they would save a bundle on condoms and VD treatment.  

Pistol training does take place and is much better than back in my day. I tell people that I can shoot pistol DESPITE the army training. To be fair pistol training was neglected by just about everyone including the police back in the 80's. However the army rifle training was excellent and serves me well on the range still. The focus of small arms training now is on combat and how the small arms fits into that as a component rather than separate entity as it was back in my day.


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## DrillDill (20 Sep 2009)

Thanks for your answers. I had no idea there was pistol training. All I ever saw was automatic rifles in videos and I've never ever see anywhere something about pistol training. So, once your regular army, can you hit the fire range and practise whenever you want?


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## PMedMoe (20 Sep 2009)

DrillDill said:
			
		

> Thanks for your answers. I had no idea there was pistol training. All I ever saw was automatic rifles in videos and I've never ever see anywhere something about pistol training. So, once your regular army, can you hit the fire range and practise whenever you want?



Ranges need to be booked, ammo has to be ordered and everyone must do a weapons handling test and preferably some refresher training beforehand.


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## 1feral1 (20 Sep 2009)

DrillDill said:
			
		

> So, once your regular army, can you hit the fire range and practise whenever you want?



I don't think you have any military experience, and thats ok, positive queries are always welcome.

I don't know where you got your info that Regulars only get pistols. That is incorrect.

One cannot go willy-nilly and get a pistol and ammo, then trundle off to go for some shooting fun. We don't 'hit' 'fire' ranges.

Regular or Reserve, range shoots for pistols and all weapons are usually organised level at PL or COY levels, and go up the chain of command from there. Competancy must be confirmed prior to any live fire activity. This is done through T'sOET, which are drills on operation etc of that weapon.

Admin for a range prac is although not overly complicated, there is a format which must be adhered to. Risk annalysis's, bookings, org'ing sentries/comms, and medical etc etc must be forecast well in advance, and are practices conducted within the current range conduct and guidlelines set forth in publications. 

US Forces have used the M9 Beretta 9mm pistol since the 80's, as thats their standard. Many BCW nations use the Browning HP as its the most popular pistol in the west, and has been in production since 1935, even produced in occupied Belgium, for the Germans.

Regards,

OWDU

EDITed for spelling  ;D


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## Colin Parkinson (20 Sep 2009)

Some bases may have a shooting club, you might be able to get some practice there if you join them after you are posted somewhere. During your training I suspect you will be to busy.


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## Bob1987 (13 Nov 2009)

Just curious about 9mm browning hp , what trades gets issued this, I searched but couldn't find info


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## 1feral1 (13 Nov 2009)

Speaking from the Australian POV, on my tour in Iraq, all ranks/all trades had a 9mm pistol, and F88SA1 carbine issued, Gunners had Para Minimi LSWs.

Our Browning HPs FNH makes, and are MkIII Vigilanties, ergo grips, ambo safeties, nice pistols.

So whether you were a clerk, cook, or infantry/armoured, we all had pistols.

OWDU


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## medaid (13 Nov 2009)

You wouldn't want a generic CF BHP even if you were issued that POS.


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## dapaterson (13 Nov 2009)

MedTech said:
			
		

> You wouldn't want a generic CF BHP even if you were issued that POS.



Actually, I've seen decent results with the CF Brownings - the main problems are the magazines, which are less than stellar, and consistently misfeed.  Newer/ better taken care of magazines work pretty well.


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## medaid (13 Nov 2009)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Actually, I've seen decent results with the CF Brownings - the main problems are the magazines, which are less than stellar, and consistently misfeed.  Newer/ better taken care of magazines work pretty well.



Like everything mileage may vary .


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## 1feral1 (13 Nov 2009)

My opinion of the Inglis 9mm Browning.

The Inglis pistol is one of the most robust ever made, and it will continue to be around for a long time yet within the CF as a whole.

Any issues with mags should be addressed with a hammer, yes I am serious. Worn mags need to be replaced with new ones.  Any mag with the initials JI on it are of WW II wartime manufacture. Remember that, as when I left 1995, pretty much all were JI marked. Hopefully things have changed in the past 15 yrs.

Defects need to be reported by first tagging such equipment. This is only as good as the personnel who ensure that this is done, and carry it on to the next level. Laziness, complaciency, and failure to act is no excuse. 

I would openly carry an Inglis into theartre without any hesitation. But I will say equipment is as only as good as it is maintained, and with the correct technical inspections carried out by the EME side of the house, that should not be an issue. 

Tired/worn equipment should never be issued out for training, yet alone a deployment. If this occurs it's not the fault of the equipment, its the fault of those that issue it out, and those that operate it and don't report defects.

My 2 cents,

Regards,

Wes


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## COBRA-6 (13 Nov 2009)

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> My opinion of the Inglis 9mm Browning.
> 
> The Inglis pistol is one of the most robust ever made, and it will continue to be around for a long time yet within the CF as a whole.
> 
> ...



Wes, both the BHP and Sig P225 will be replaced by a new pistol in the next few years as part of the first phase of SARP II.


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## medaid (13 Nov 2009)

COBRA-6 said:
			
		

> Wes, both the BHP and Sig P225 will be replaced by a new pistol in the next few years as part of the first phase of SARP II.




NOOOO!!! Not my favourite Sig225!!! You mean we will no longer only carry 25rds of Justice while all the other LEOs have close to 40? You don't say!!!

Any idea what it might be C6?


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## X-mo-1979 (13 Nov 2009)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Actually, I've seen decent results with the CF Brownings - the main problems are the magazines, which are less than stellar, and consistently misfeed.  Newer/ better taken care of magazines work pretty well.



They sure do.


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## 1feral1 (13 Nov 2009)

COBRA-6 said:
			
		

> Wes, both the BHP and Sig P225 will be replaced by a new pistol in the next few years as part of the first phase of SARP II.



Lets hope those Inglis BHPs are sold off to law abiding gun owners in Canada, even the USA maybe. I have one still, legally owned and registered, stored back in dear ole Saskatchewan, a 3T. 

All this enthusiasm will be short lived as selling surplus mil weapons to private citizens is not the PC thing to do. I think there is even a UN charter discouraging such things. Destination sadly is, LTS and/or smelt.

On replacement? Who knows. Australia has pretty much smelted all its L9A1 and Inglis 9mms, replaced them with a MkIII Vigilante BHP, dumped the mag safety, and the pistol will be around for decades to come.  Why fix something if its not broken.  The BHP is still the most common military sidearm in the world. That speaks for itself.

Cheers,

Wes

EDITed for spelling


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## SeanNewman (13 Nov 2009)

It's not just a secondary.  Us KAF-ites carried one the whole tour...never did get to shoot down an incoming rocket out of the sky to get that VC though, darnit.

I think it was one of those cases where some might ask "Is KAF really that dangerous?  Are those tiny Supreme guys in the mess going to revolt?"  But I think the counter would be if something were to happen like a raving gunman came into the HQ, even if the odds were almost nil, someone somewhere would have their signature block on the order saying we didn't need them anymore and that person would be in deep doo-doo.

Thank God they weren't readied though; there would have been NDs all over the place.

PS - If you do make it to Kandahar one day, make sure to get yourself a super-comfy Hogue grip for it so your LCF goes through the roof.


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## Jarnhamar (13 Nov 2009)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> It's not just a secondary.  Us KAF-ites carried one the whole tour...never did get to shoot down an incoming rocket out of the sky to get that VC though, darnit.
> 
> I think it was one of those cases where some might ask "Is KAF really that dangerous?  Are those tiny Supreme guys in the mess going to revolt?"  But I think the counter would be if something were to happen like a raving gunman came into the HQ, even if the odds were almost nil, someone somewhere would have their signature block on the order saying we didn't need them anymore and that person would be in deep doo-doo.
> 
> ...



We need to stamp out the pistol being treated like a special insignia in the CF.
I've heard people refused pistols because they were 'just a corporal'.
It's still largely looked at as an Officer/Senior NCO device. 

Those of us who DID have pistols (depending who you worked for) were told to either keep them locked up in our room until we left the wire and also told we were only allowed to wear certain holsters- some holsters made us look like officers and that wasn't acceptable.

Everyone on KAF wants a pistol because it's convenient and their being lazy. Lugging around an assault rifle when you're hanging out at timmies is hard work.  (Not you specifically there Petamocto, just a theme I found in much of the NSE/NCE).

If people were so afraid of the stereo-typical crazy haji running into a CP blowing everyone away it would be more effective having people with C7s.  Considering the lack of training with pistols (and the act of god required on KAF to get range time) people would end up just shooting themselves  ;D


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## X-mo-1979 (13 Nov 2009)

I had mine wrapped around my TRP incase my 105(or 120),2 c-6's(or 2 MG-3), 8MBGD's,hand greneades,4 c-8s went down.

All the same the few times I leaned over the side and fired it at stuff it was dead on.
Again I did have one shitty Mag,but couldnt get a replacement.

We did some transitional shooting from c-8 to pistol and that was kinda fun.

Flawed:
I was a mcpl over there and all four of our trooper drivers had a pistol as well.It aint a status symbol so much anymore.

Speaking of KAF did anyone see that young lady who though up putting a c-7 rack on her bike on the maple leaf?
guys had her up on the wall just to make themselves angry.
when carrying coffee on a bike becomes dangerous....make a weapons stand for your c-7!
meanwhile there are troopers taking shrapnel,and this chick is on the cover of the maple leaf. Sorry...rant off...


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## Franko (14 Nov 2009)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Speaking of KAF did anyone see that young lady who though up putting a c-7 rack on her bike on the maple leaf?
> guys had her up on the wall just to make themselves angry.
> when carrying coffee on a bike becomes dangerous....make a weapons stand for your c-7!
> meanwhile there are troopers taking shrapnel,and this chick is on the cover of the maple leaf. Sorry...rant off...



Yep. Tells you right there what the priority for some in KAF is.....and the Maple Leaf reporter who did that POS article instead of getting out and seeing what the troops were REALLY doing.

Regards


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## X-mo-1979 (14 Nov 2009)

What I found the funny part was she didnt even build the thing.It had a quick sentence saying it was built by two MAT techs.So what did she do?Sit at canada house and say "gee I wish I had a rack to carry my gun" and two MAT techs said "ok,I can do that!"


Edit to add:here yah go!
http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/Commun/ml-fe/article-eng.asp?id=4636

And I remember what caused the initial anger was  this article was shared with our guys getting killed.

i'll stop...

Yu wouldnt believe how many people said the phrase "carrying my gun is awkward"!during our 7 months there making fun of this article!


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## Haggis (14 Nov 2009)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Actually, I've seen decent results with the CF Brownings - the main problems are the magazines, which are less than stellar, and consistently misfeed.  Newer/ better taken care of magazines work pretty well.



The biggest problem with the Browning magazines is the people who load them.  I know that you know this, dapaterson. But for the benefit of those who don't, you cannot load it the same as a rifle magazine (i.e. push the round straight down between the lips then back).  You have to do it differently (push the round down on the front of the magazine follower, then back under the lips) to keep the lips from spreading.

I've owned and fired both Inglis and FN Browning High Powers for over thirty years and have only had one (yes one) non magazine related stoppage - a broken extractor.  It's reliable. Couple that with the state of CF pistol training today (compared to thirty years ago) and the Browning is perfectly suitable for it's intended use as a secondary weapon.   Are there better pistols out there?  You betcha!  If properly cared for and in the hands of a trained user, the Browining High Power is very effective.


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## Jarnhamar (14 Nov 2009)

Haggis said:
			
		

> I've owned and fired both Inglis and FN Browning High Powers for over thirty years and have only had one (yes one) non magazine related stoppage - a broken extractor.  It's reliable.



Welcome home.  I bet it rained most of the time you ere there, it did for me  ;D

When I went through my mandatory training at the hand gun range here in town I used a browning Hi Power. 
I was shocked. The pistol was well cared for, it had a few aftermarket parts and it felt like a whole different gun.  I could not believe how smooth the shooting was or how accurate it was. Not a single stoppage.


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## Colin Parkinson (14 Nov 2009)

I have the Hi-Power Practical, the larger safety makes a big differance. The gun is likely the most accurate pistol I own. It's sad to think that all those Inglis will likely be destroyed rather than sold.


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## Thompson_JM (17 Nov 2009)

ARGH!!!

Why did I read that article?!?!?!

Oh Carrying a rifle on a bike is awkward? why not just walk then....... Sheesh...

well at least she wasnt like some of the Clerks from the NSE on my tour who actually used the phrase "The C7 is so big and heavy... and then it would get in the way in the office unless we put in a rifle rack, and thats why I'm glad I have my pistol"

sweet jesus man..... 

It would have been more convenient sure, but Laziness is a poor reason to carry something like that.... and really outside of a vehicle search, ECP or something where youre really up close, the Pistol is pretty useless compared to a long rifle or Carbine.


I personally didnt want a pistol.... why settle for 10 rounds on camp when I could carry 30.


I wanted a Damned C8.... I was a Driver for crying out loud... its not like it wouldnt have been usefull!

but, I'll take the C7A2 if it means giving the C8A2's to the infantry guys doing the up close room clearing and the like.... I'd rather they have everything they need, but in a perfect world it would have been nice to have a Carbine.... heck, a C8 or C8A1 woulda been nice, I'm not picky..... 

Any idea what the CF might be getting as a replacement pistol for the BHP?

(please be Glock.... Please be Glock... Please be Glock.....) 
and yes I do own a glock, so I know what they are like... I love mine and think its one of the best pistols out there... Simple, reliable, and effective.... exactly what a military wants in a weapon.


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## X-mo-1979 (17 Nov 2009)

I shoulda put a warning on that article.It made us very angry daily for 8 months.


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## COBRA-6 (17 Nov 2009)

Way to far out at this point to speculate what the replacement pistol may be, but as this pistol will also be the MP issued sidearm I doubt it will be a single-action, as most police services have moved away from those type. 

The Army still has to decide what role the pistol fills and who needs one. This seems intuitive but we lack doctrine in this area. Treasury Board will not support "we want xx thousand pistols" just because, the CF will have to substantiate the need/numbers. I don't believe buying a weapon to act as an accoutrement of rank is a good use of tax dollars, so I hope we don't stick with the "Sgts and up" current method of allocation.


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## Colin Parkinson (17 Nov 2009)

It would cost approx. $2.7million to buy 9,000 Glock pistols, not a huge sum by government standards. I suspect that weight, cost and reliabilty will be the major factors. There are a lot of decent options to choose from, I like the M&P over the Glock, but think the G19 is a very decent pistol. The Sig 250 would likely be offered but may cost twice as much as a Glock, the Sigpro 2022 would make a nice choice as well, but likely Sig would only offer the 250. Other options that would likely be offered for review would be the SR9, FNP9, XDM and the PX-4. It all depends if they decide that having a manual safety and/or a decocker then it's likely Glock will not bother, although did do up a similar pistol for Norway if I recall.


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## Snaketnk (17 Nov 2009)

COBRA-6 said:
			
		

> so I hope we don't stick with the "Sgts and up" current method of allocation.



That's not how it's allocated at all. In my, albeit limited experience, when pistols are brought in, it's an all-ranks thing, from the lowliest no-hook to the CO.


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## medaid (17 Nov 2009)

Snaketnk said:
			
		

> That's not how it's allocated at all. In my, albeit limited experience, when pistols are brought in, it's an all-ranks thing, from the lowliest no-hook to the CO.



Lucky you.


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## Fusaki (17 Nov 2009)

Snaketnk said:
			
		

> That's not how it's allocated at all. In my, albeit limited experience, when pistols are brought in, it's an all-ranks thing, from the lowliest no-hook to the CO.



It's one thing to say that everyone from Pte to LCOL shoots pistols on the range.  It's quite another to say that everyone from Pte to LCOL is each issued a pistol on ex and overseas.  While the former happens often, the latter is pretty far removed from reality.  COBRA-6 is pretty accurate in his statement that pistols are allocated based on rank. 

On the issue of pistols being allocated to those inside the wire vs outside the wire...

Maybe you could make a case for one or two guys in an infantry rifle section to carry pistols.  Sometimes it can come in handy during VCPs, or searching confined areas, or things like that.  But why else would your regular infantry guy really need a pistol in a tactical situation?  For transitions in CQB? Please.  The JTF and CSOR can make it work because they have the money, training, and the mission for that sort of thing.  But expecting regular infantry to take on the role of precision gunslinger is dangerous for a number of reasons.  We're the hammer, not the scalpel.

And besides, I can appreciate the fact that some who spend their tours in KAF only want to carry a pistol.  The threat is from the badguy is close to NIL and a pistol is lighter and more convenient. So why should the guy filling a support position inside the wire have to carry around a rifle?  Because the guys outside the wire have to do it?  How retarded is that?  Should infantry guys have to carry around wrenches and crap to make the veh techs feel better?  They have their job.  I have mine. Pistols make their lives a little easier, and I really can't see how it hurts my life at all.

That chick's bike _pales_ in comparison to the crap I'd rig up if I were in her position.


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## X-mo-1979 (18 Nov 2009)

COBRA-6 said:
			
		

> so I hope we don't stick with the "Sgts and up" current method of allocation.



Where is this happening?I know in my little troop  5 of the 8 pistols were on Mcpl and below.They used the excuse that the driver and the C/C needed a pistol to be able to wield it in the confines of the compartment.

Maybe no one suggested a reason in your trades how it would be helpful and the organization your in stuck to the traditional Sgt and above so he could shoot the deserters I guess.

I really didnt need it.The LN seemed to look at it a lot more than the rifle or c-6 though.

Keeping weapons in KAF seems like a viable way to retain the same danger pay as everyone else.However I am talking way outta my lane on that comment.Just my theory.


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## daftandbarmy (18 Nov 2009)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> What I found the funny part was she didnt even build the thing.It had a quick sentence saying it was built by two MAT techs.So what did she do?Sit at canada house and say "gee I wish I had a rack to carry my gun" and two MAT techs said "ok,I can do that!"



Or 'I wish I had a rack'... full stop.


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## X-mo-1979 (18 Nov 2009)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Or 'I wish I had a rack'... full stop.



Well done. ;D


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## PMedMoe (18 Nov 2009)

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> It's one thing to say that everyone from Pte to LCOL shoots pistols on the range.  It's quite another to say that everyone from Pte to LCOL is each issued a pistol on ex and overseas.  While the former happens often, the latter is pretty far removed from reality.  COBRA-6 is pretty accurate in his statement that pistols are allocated based on rank.
> 
> On the issue of pistols being allocated to those inside the wire vs outside the wire...
> 
> ...


Totally agree with this statement.



			
				X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Keeping weapons in KAF seems like a viable way to retain the same danger pay as everyone else.However I am talking way outta my lane on that comment.Just my theory.


Give it up.  As you stated elsewhere, we all die the same, regardless of education location.


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## Snaketnk (21 Nov 2009)

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> It's one thing to say that everyone from Pte to LCOL shoots pistols on the range.  It's quite another to say that everyone from Pte to LCOL is each issued a pistol on ex and overseas.  While the former happens often, the latter is pretty far removed from reality.  COBRA-6 is pretty accurate in his statement that pistols are allocated based on rank.



Within my organization during Ex Provincial Guardian, everyone from myself (the Pte) through the MCpls, Sgts, RSM and CO were carrying sidearms in addition to their long barrel weapons, with the intent that it would be the same when we head overseas in the spring. The ones that weren't carring pistols were the odd Infantry section and a few of the CSS types.


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## COBRA-6 (23 Nov 2009)

Snaketnk said:
			
		

> Within my organization during Ex Provincial Guardian, everyone from myself (the Pte) through the MCpls, Sgts, RSM and CO were carrying sidearms in addition to their long barrel weapons, with the intent that it would be the same when we head overseas in the spring. The ones that weren't carring pistols were the odd Infantry section and a few of the CSS types.



I agree that this should be the norm, however there is no doctrine to support it either way. The current allocation is varried dependant on individual units/org as far as who gets one. If you look at pistols on the TO&E for TFA it was almost exactly based on rank, with MCpls or Sgts and up allocated pistols, except for a few orgs that have SOPs to issue pistols to others based on the positions they held (i.e. some Armd crewmen). However, there are almost enough pistols in theatre to issue one to everyone, which suggests that far more are issued out than captured on the TO&E. This is not a bad thing, it just indicates that we need to capture why this is happening  and update our doctrine accordingly.


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## X-mo-1979 (26 Nov 2009)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Give it up.  As you stated elsewhere, we all die the same, regardless of education location.



Yes we all do die the same under the same circumstances.WTF does that have to do with anything?
You tell me about your firefight to occupy Canada house,4 IED's heading down to the boardwalk and I'll agree with you.Otherwise your totally wrong.And your comment above added nothing to the discussion of 9mm.Infact your comment had nothing to do with it besides saying you agree with one poster and a little dig at myself.

As for dying the same due to location I believe you should read the news and haul out a map.Sorry...it isnt.Your wrong.

As for the other little dig you threw out there.Explain to me how a PHD student will survive due to an education?Are the taliban giving skill testing questions at IED strikes now?Again your comment makes no sense.

Anywho I bit your bait.I'll head off and live life for a bit (outside..stuff like that) .You can sit here hitting refresh until I return in a few day. Or you can realize your totally wrong.Which you are.


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## Fishbone Jones (26 Nov 2009)

Both of you can take your pissing contest to PMs, if you wish to continue. Your ongoing fued is getting tiresome. Both of you grow up. If you can't interact civily, quit talking to each other. We won't put up with it here anymore.

Milnet.ca Staff


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