# The Cost Of Treating Troops As Free Labor Providers



## Jarnhamar (24 Nov 2015)

Having been a victim of this more times than i care for I thought it was a pretty good article to throw out here.  

http://taskandpurpose.com/the-cost-of-treating-troops-as-free-labor-providers/


> * Far too many leaders come at any problem with the assumption that labor is free.*
> 
> It’s become almost a trope that government is less efficient and more wasteful than the private sector. Sometimes that’s true and sometimes it’s not. What is true is that most government organizations lack, at least relative to private firms, economic incentives in daily management decisions, particularly in regards to how managers use labor.
> 
> ...


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## SupersonicMax (24 Nov 2015)

I always tell my guys to manage their own time and as long as their job gets done on time, I will not get into their schedule unnecessarily.  It means if they have nothing more to do at 1330, they can go home.  But I also tell them that if I need them to pull a 12+ hour day someday that they better not moan and complain.

For the most part, they are on top (in terms of time), but I believe the organization benefits from people that are generally happier.


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## Colin Parkinson (24 Nov 2015)

My work unit is flexible because we treat it as a two way street, we are flexible on staff time as long as they don't abuse it and generally the staff will remind someone themselves not to.


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## medicineman (24 Nov 2015)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I always tell my guys to manage their own time and as long as their job gets done on time, I will not get into their schedule unnecessarily.  It means if they have nothing more to do at 1330, they can go home.  But I also tell them that if I need them to pull a 12+ hour day someday that they better not moan and complain.



I've seen that happen on more than one occasion where people are so used to getting off early that when it comes time to have to do work past when they THINK they're supposed to, that all Hell breaks loose.  I'm a firm believer of "If you've got nothing to do, don't do it here", but I'm also a firm believer in the "Work hard" part of "Work hard, play hard", so if there is something to do, you're there until it's done.  I'd also been party to people freaking out when they got called back in to work after hours for something that was decreed from well above anybody's pay grade that it would happen...many impolite words had to be said at those people who forgot we don't have an 8-4 job.

MM


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## c_canuk (24 Nov 2015)

How about all these bloody parades in NCR?

Is providing 200+ person days per year for activities such as, GoH for the assistant to the chauffuer of the MND of Pakistan, while the unit is at less than 80% of manning with a greatly expanding AOR, a wise use of our resources.

Another question I have, is the TB policy of billing for services provided to other departments being followed? I'll bet if the departments requesting these parades of over 100 persons for 2-3 days had to pay (~130pers x $150 x 2days = ~40K + transport, admin, facility bookings etc) out of their own budget they wouldn't be asking for them every other week.


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## Kirkhill (24 Nov 2015)

No sympathy here on Ceremonial Duties.

Ceremonial Duties are the first and most important of Influence Activities.  A Guard demonstrates "Presence".  It flaunts (or should flaunt) "Capability".  It shows "Respect".  It provides a visual demonstration of who is in charge.


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## Pusser (24 Nov 2015)

c_canuk said:
			
		

> How about all these bloody parades in NCR?
> 
> Is providing 200+ person days per year for activities such as, GoH for the assistant to the chauffuer of the MND of Pakistan, while the unit is at less than 80% of manning with a greatly expanding AOR, a wise use of our resources.
> 
> Another question I have, is the TB policy of billing for services provided to other departments being followed? I'll bet if the departments requesting these parades of over 100 persons for 2-3 days had to pay (~130pers x $150 x 2days = ~40K + transport, admin, facility bookings etc) out of their own budget they wouldn't be asking for them every other week.



TB policy for charging other government departments for services rendered does not apply to labour.  In fact, it only covers incremental costs.  For example, if vehicles were required for a task, DND can charge an OGD for fuel, but not a rental fee for the vehicle (the government already owns it) nor wages for the people driving it or riding in it (they're already being paid by the government).


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## daftandbarmy (24 Nov 2015)

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> No sympathy here on Ceremonial Duties.
> 
> Ceremonial Duties are the first and most important of Influence Activities.  A Guard demonstrates "Presence".  It flaunts (or should flaunt) "Capability".  It shows "Respect".  It provides a visual demonstration of who is in charge.



It can also be done (more economically) by part timers, as is most ably demonstrated by the CGG et al in Ottawa.


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## dapaterson (24 Nov 2015)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> It can also be done (more economically) by part timers, as is most ably demonstrated by the CGG et al in Ottawa.



1.  The Canadian Grenadier Guards (CGG)  are in Montreal.

2.  The Governor General's Footguards (GGFG) are in Ottawa.

3.  The Ceremonial Guard (CG) is a tasking, not a unit, located in Ottawa that does the changing of the guard on Parliament Hill, and mounts the guard at Rideau Hall during the public duties season (late June through late August).

4.  The majority of honour guards in Ottawa are not performed by the GGFG, CG or CGG, but rather by tasking NDHQ organizations to provide personnel who are pulled together on an ad hoc basis.


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## daftandbarmy (24 Nov 2015)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> 1.  The Canadian Grenadier Guards (CGG)  are in Montreal.
> 
> 2.  The Governor General's Footguards (GGFG) are in Ottawa.
> 
> ...



Why?

Unless the Queen's in town, or something, that sounds like a huge waste of $.


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## medicineman (24 Nov 2015)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Why?
> 
> Unless the Queen's in town, or something, that sounds like a huge waste of $.



Because that would make sense...therefore the opposite must be done  8).

MM


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## dapaterson (24 Nov 2015)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Why?
> 
> Unless the Queen's in town, or something, that sounds like a huge waste of $.



Fixed vs incremental costs.  Full time pers are already paid; bring in class A reservists and the ingrates want to be paid for doing drill.

Plus, if you need a 100 man guard, how many class A reservists do you need to generate it - because Bob has school, Jane has work, Fred is on a T-cat, Alex isn't answering phone calls, so only George is available...

Remember, requests for guards do not come on a regular schedule, and do not occur only on Wednesday nights (or whatever the local parade night is).  They arise in the middle of the week, in the middle of the day, sometimes on short notice - the Chief of Defence of Fantasia is coming for a last minute visit, so the call goes out the day before.


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## Oldgateboatdriver (24 Nov 2015)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Why?
> 
> Unless the Queen's in town, or something, that sounds like a huge waste of $.



Answer: Because it's a summer tourist staple in Ottawa.

A smaller version also goes on , again during the summer, at the Citadel in Quebec City, for the same touristic reasons


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## Old Sweat (24 Nov 2015)

Guards of honour in NDHQ have been provided by the "hey you" principle since about 1973 when the then-DCDS, Stan Waters, refused to task Petawawa for a guard as he noted, there were literally thousands of troops in Ottawa. I also suspect this was cooked up by him, the Comd FMC and, last but not least, General Dextraze, the CDS.


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## daftandbarmy (24 Nov 2015)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Guards of honour in NDHQ have been provided by the "hey you" principle since about 1973 when the then-DCDS, Stan Waters, refused to task Petawawa for a guard as he noted, there were literally thousands of troops in Ottawa. I also suspect this was cooked up by him, the Comd FMC and, last but not least, General Dextraze, the CDS.



Of course, because:

"Leadership involves finding a parade and getting in front of it."

John Naisbitt

 [lol:


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## brihard (24 Nov 2015)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> 1.  The Canadian Grenadier Guards (CGG)  are in Montreal.
> 
> 2.  The Governor General's Footguards (GGFG) are in Ottawa.
> 
> ...



Since when is CG not a unit? A weird one, to be sure, and one that shrinks to a handful of pers for about half the year, but they have a UIC, an HQ, a chain of command with appointments including CO and RSM... I know it's semantics, really, but my understanding (including in my three summers there) was always that it was a legitimate 'unit' in any way the CAF reckoned the term... Not unlike the schools / training centres that will swell and contract seasonally.


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## dapaterson (24 Nov 2015)

Nope.  A UIC is an identifier of an organization - parts of NDHQ, which are not units, have UICs (which is not the correct term any more - they are DeptIDs).

Per the National Defence Act,



> Units and Other Elements
> 
> Marginal note:Organization
> 
> ...



For the Minister to organize a unit, it requires what is called a Ministerial Organizational Order (or MOO for short).  No MOO, no unit.  The CG has no MOO.  Therefore, it is not a unit.

However, oddly enough, while the CG is not a unit, it does have a Commanding Officer.  Per QR&O volume 1, chapter 1, article 1.02,



> "commanding officer" (commandant)
> means
> a. except when the Chief of the Defence Staff otherwise directs, an officer in command of a base, unit or element, or
> b. any other officer designated as a commanding officer by or under the authority of the Chief of the Defence Staff;



The individual appointed CO of the CG is done so IAW sub-para b of the above.

Don't worry - most people are unaware of the "neither fish nor fowl" status of the CG - including people posted to it...


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## Kirkhill (24 Nov 2015)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> It can also be done (more economically) by part timers, as is most ably demonstrated by the CGG et al in Ottawa.



No problem with that at all.

Even the Brits in Bearskins (woodentops all) only do ceremonials on a part time basis.


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## Eye In The Sky (24 Nov 2015)

Pusser said:
			
		

> TB policy for charging other government departments for services rendered does not apply to labour.  In fact, it only covers incremental costs.  For example, if vehicles were required for a task, DND can charge an OGD for fuel, but not a rental fee for the vehicle (the government already owns it) nor wages for the people driving it or riding in it (they're already being paid by the government).



I have seen this done inside the CAF though...no fin code?  No soup for you!


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## c_canuk (25 Nov 2015)

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> No sympathy here on Ceremonial Duties.
> 
> Ceremonial Duties are the first and most important of Influence Activities.  A Guard demonstrates "Presence".  It flaunts (or should flaunt) "Capability".  It shows "Respect".  It provides a visual demonstration of who is in charge.



I would submit that if we provide a GoH for persons less than a top tier dignitary, the person in charge is certainly not those providing it for the foreign national. I highly doubt that any visiting dignitary's agenda gets altered because of a GoH. Those are nice sentiments but they don't hold up to reality.

There are plenty of people around that they should not be pulling already undermanned people off of supporting the infrastructure missions are relying on, so we can have a bunch of human manikins standing pretty for what ever foreign national VIP comes to town. This crap is high on the top ten list of why NDHQ is seen as dysfunctional.

Based on the bottom of the barrel we end up scraping to get people on those GoHs, I highly doubt the effect is as you imply as well. 

If it's that bloody important that we have to overwork our limited staff, then I suggest they have justification to beef up the ceremonial units in the area until they can handle the load. Sending techs to do drill when there are real missions ongoing is a blatant waste of resources. If the powers that be argue about not having funding for the cost, we're already paying it in lost capability. Find a way to bill for it.


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## daftandbarmy (25 Nov 2015)

c_canuk said:
			
		

> I would submit that if we provide a GoH for persons less than a top tier dignitary, the person in charge is certainly not those providing it for the foreign national. I highly doubt that any visiting dignitary's agenda gets altered because of a GoH. Those are nice sentiments but they don't hold up to reality.
> 
> There are plenty of people around that they should not be pulling already undermanned people off of supporting the infrastructure missions are relying on, so we can have a bunch of human manikins standing pretty for what ever foreign national VIP comes to town. This crap is high on the top ten list of why NDHQ is seen as dysfunctional.
> 
> ...



The other way to look at this duty is, of course, as a great honour for the troops who participate. 

Why not share the duty around the brigades so that all troops have an opportunity to go to Ottawa and participate in national level activities?

I spoke to some of our troops who went to Ottawa for the Smokey Smith funeral, from the West Coast, and they clearly considered the event as one of the highlights of their careers.


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## Edward Campbell (25 Nov 2015)

c_canuk said:
			
		

> I would submit that if we provide a GoH for persons less than a top tier dignitary, the person in charge is certainly not those providing it for the foreign national. I highly doubt that any visiting dignitary's agenda gets altered because of a GoH. Those are nice sentiments but they don't hold up to reality.
> 
> There are plenty of people around that they should not be pulling already undermanned people off of supporting the infrastructure missions are relying on, so we can have a bunch of human manikins standing pretty for what ever foreign national VIP comes to town. This crap is high on the top ten list of why NDHQ is seen as dysfunctional.
> 
> ...




If we're talking about Ottawa then I take issue with two of the four highlighted words: _overworked_ and _limited_.

HQs in Ottawa are HUGE, compared to when I served (I retired almost 20 years ago) and they are beyond *huge,* they are _morbidly obese_ when compared to the size of the fleets and field forces and what went before. 

I know, I am 100% certain that some people are, indeed, overworked, but:

     1. Some ≠ all; and

     2. _*Some*_ of the overwork is from doing useless, busy work.

Further, if the pictures I saw of the guard for the new MND is any indication then some people could use some time out of the office and in the gym.


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## Colin Parkinson (25 Nov 2015)

Pusser said:
			
		

> TB policy for charging other government departments for services rendered does not apply to labour.  In fact, it only covers incremental costs.  For example, if vehicles were required for a task, DND can charge an OGD for fuel, but not a rental fee for the vehicle (the government already owns it) nor wages for the people driving it or riding in it (they're already being paid by the government).



Coast Guard, tried to charge us the full daily cost of a 150' ship to do a site inspection, we were willing to pay extra OT and extra fuel. In the end we hired a smaller boat and the CCG ship sat at anchor doing nothing.


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## c_canuk (25 Nov 2015)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> If we're talking about Ottawa then I take issue with two of the four highlighted words: _overworked_ and _limited_.
> 
> HQs in Ottawa are HUGE, compared to when I served (I retired almost 20 years ago) and they are beyond *huge,* they are _morbidly obese_ when compared to the size of the fleets and field forces and what went before.



No argument, but these parade taskings are MCpl and below, so you can probably figure out why it's a strain on those of us trying to support actual operations.



> I know, I am 100% certain that some people are, indeed, overworked, but:
> 
> 1. Some ≠ all; and
> 
> ...



Hence my comment about the GoH not having the effect that Chris Pook thought it should.


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## Kirkhill (25 Nov 2015)

c_canuk said:
			
		

> No argument, but these parade taskings are MCpl and below, so you can probably figure out why it's a strain on those of us trying to support actual operations.
> 
> Hence my comment about the GoH not having the effect that Chris Pook thought it should.



Point taken.

I agree that the odds and sods approach does not result in the effect desired.


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## dimsum (25 Nov 2015)

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> Point taken.
> 
> I agree that the odds and sods approach does not result in the effect desired.



If most are MCpl and below, how about the folks on PAT in Borden/St-Jean/elsewhere within a few hours' travel of Ottawa?


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## Kirkhill (26 Nov 2015)

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> Point taken.
> 
> I agree that the odds and sods approach does not result in the effect desired.



This is more of the effect I was looking for - Minutes 2:00 to 4:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5_pYOJnbZM

Sorry Tony - You've got me addicted to these guys.


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## The Bread Guy (26 Nov 2015)

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> This is more of the effect I was looking for - Minutes 2:00 to 4:00
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5_pYOJnbZM
> 
> Sorry Tony - You've got me addicted to these guys.


At least SOME of them got to be in short-sleeve order in that heat  ;D


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## Pieman (26 Nov 2015)

> There may be an infinite number of universes, but in none of them does it make sense to have extra people aimlessly wandering barracks hallways in the middle of the night.


Ha! That statement can be used in so many different contexts, I'm totally stealing it. 

Many of the inefficiencies mentioned in this article I have experienced first hand. 

Although one cannot put a price tag on it, perhaps there could be a 'man hour' budget imposed on the leadership. The budget must be managed to produce the most amount of work in the least amount of time. If a section is blasting through thousands of man hours accomplishing very little then there are some efficiency issues. 

An example might be that troop A has 40 troops that have 50 hours a week allotted to each soldier. That's 2000 man hours to work with. So the Lt. gets and order to take the men on a 0800h weapons draw, and  8km ruck march. Then, say, clean the bay and service four vehicles until done. If he or the NCM leadership decide to have the troop show up two hours earlier they waste 80 man hours to have people stand around and do nothing. That kind of waste adds up quick. If they start running out of man hours then it should get the attention of higher up, who would be responsible for finding ways to do things more efficiently. 

All easier said than done, I'm sure. But unless the amount of  time spent on duty is quantified in some manner there is no way to gauge it.


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## Monsoon (26 Nov 2015)

Pieman said:
			
		

> An example might be that troop A has 40 troops that have 50 hours a week allotted to each soldier. That's 2000 man hours to work with. So the Lt. gets and order to take the men on a 0800h weapons draw, and  8km ruck march. Then, say, clean the bay and service four vehicles until done. If he or the NCM leadership decide to have the troop show up two hours earlier they waste 80 man hours to have people stand around and do nothing. That kind of waste adds up quick. If they start running out of man hours then it should get the attention of higher up, who would be responsible for finding ways to do things more efficiently.


If we managed time like we manage budgets, we'd all be working 120-hour weeks through the month of March to avoid having our units disbanded.


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## dapaterson (26 Nov 2015)

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> If we managed time like we manage budgets, we'd all be working 120-hour weeks through the month of March to avoid having our units disbanded.




And blaming everything on PWGSC...


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## jollyjacktar (26 Nov 2015)

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> This is more of the effect I was looking for - Minutes 2:00 to 4:00
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5_pYOJnbZM
> 
> Sorry Tony - You've got me addicted to these guys.



Wow, brings a whole new meaning to "run chicken run".  Love the bands, hell even the vets get into it too.  Efficient way to get your yearly PT test done as well as a parade. :nod:


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## Kirkhill (26 Nov 2015)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Wow, brings a whole new meaning to "run chicken run".  Love the bands, hell even the vets get into it too.  Efficient way to get your yearly PT test done as well as a parade. :nod:



Which, strangely enough, is the purpose of parades: to review the troops.


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## Pieman (26 Nov 2015)

> If we managed time like we manage budgets, we'd all be working 120-hour weeks through the month of March to avoid having our units disbanded.


Sadly it's probably true.


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## Kirkhill (26 Nov 2015)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Wow, brings a whole new meaning to "run chicken run".  Love the bands, hell even the vets get into it too.  Efficient way to get your yearly PT test done as well as a parade. :nod:



Here's a random thought. Introduce the Passo di Corsa into the Canadian light battalions.  Hire the Bersaglieri band to lead route marches for the next three to six months.


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## The Bread Guy (26 Nov 2015)

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> Here's a random thought. Introduce the Passo di Corsa into the Canadian light battalions.  Hire the Bersaglieri band to lead route marches for the next three to six months.


And you thought marching between pipe and a Rifle Regiment was tough  ;D


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## cavalryman (26 Nov 2015)

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> Here's a random thought. Introduce the Passo di Corsa into the Canadian light battalions.  Hire the Bersaglieri band to lead route marches for the next three to six months.


Tis not the LIBs who need it.  Perhaps NDHQ could make better use of the Passo Di Corsa  [


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## quadrapiper (26 Nov 2015)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> The other way to look at this duty is, of course, as a great honour for the troops who participate.
> 
> Why not share the duty around the brigades so that all troops have an opportunity to go to Ottawa and participate in national level activities?
> 
> I spoke to some of our troops who went to Ottawa for the Smokey Smith funeral, from the West Coast, and they clearly considered the event as one of the highlights of their careers.


Running with that, introduce it into the readiness cycle for those units suited by their rank mix and size to provide a suitable presence?


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## Kirkhill (26 Nov 2015)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> And you thought marching between pipe and a Rifle Regiment was tough  ;D



A standing joke in the British army was "The Light Division: Late on parade". This would allow at least another coffee before having to leave for the saluting dais.

And cavalryman, following on from that thought - FUP a park'n'ride a couple of miles from Col By and then it is a simple matter of keeping up with the tuba player....


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## Ostrozac (26 Nov 2015)

quadrapiper said:
			
		

> Running with that, introduce it into the readiness cycle for those units suited by their rank mix and size to provide a suitable presence?



It's been tried, half-heartedly, in the past. I was on an opening of parliament when 3RCR provided the guard. The fact of the matter is that Petawawa views Ottawa ceremonial taskings as a burden not laid on other bases, and many of our other major bases are too far for road moves, making the cost of hotels and airlift excessive.

There has been some talk kicked about about having a standing Public Duties unit in the NCR -- the rotating task for the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier may be the first step toward this. And there would be no reason to shut down the clearly successful Army Reserve summer program -- thanks to the double fists of Posting Season and Summer Leave the Regular Force tends to lose a lot of capacity over the summer months.

On the whole, I think it's overdue. I think pulling Geo Techs and Comm Researchers off of their primary duty at short notice and putting them on parade, not because their current task is low priority, but because they are a Cpl/MCpl in the NCR is a silly way to allocate scarce resources. But a standing Public Duties unit would need infrastructure, and infrastructure in the NCR seems to be an ongoing drama.


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## Rifleman62 (26 Nov 2015)

There should be enough Capts at HDHQ to form a 100 person Guard of Honour. Throw in a couple of Majs and a LCol as guard Comd. Still need a MWO/CWO as Gd SM and a colour party.

Could probably do several PD's before some of the Capt's were dinged twice.


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## Ostrozac (26 Nov 2015)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> There should be enough Capts at HDHQ to form a 100 person Guard of Honour. Throw in a couple of Majs and a LCol as guard Comd. Still need a MWO/CWO as Gd SM and a colour party.
> 
> Could probably do several PD's before some of the Capt's were dinged twice.



That's a really good point. I once had a CWO in the NCR remark to me that he could stand up a 100-man guard of Majors with less impact on the real world than a 100-man guard of Cpl/MCpl. Our Junior NCO's in the NCR tend to be busy doing the primary work of their trade -- the Geo types at Mapping and Charting Establishment, all the Signals types maintaining our monster servers and networks, the RMS Clerks that are sustaining admin for such a large organization, even the Image Techs at ADM(PA) and CFSU(O) Imaging Services that are supposed to be a resource for taking pictures of and publicizing our ceremonial events, not participating in them. I could go on, but you see what I mean. When people think NDHQ they think thousands of cubicle drones, but when the call for parade comes, it's not likely to be the Major from New Fur Hat Procurement 1-2-3 who's going to get the call, it's more likely going to be the MCpl who maintains his crypto.


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## daftandbarmy (26 Nov 2015)

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> That's a really good point. I once had a CWO in the NCR remark to me that he could stand up a 100-man guard of Majors with less impact on the real world than a 100-man guard of Cpl/MCpl. Our Junior NCO's in the NCR tend to be busy doing the primary work of their trade -- the Geo types at Mapping and Charting Establishment, all the Signals types maintaining our monster servers and networks, the RMS Clerks that are sustaining admin for such a large organization, even the Image Techs at ADM(PA) and CFSU(O) Imaging Services that are supposed to be a resource for taking pictures of and publicizing our ceremonial events, not participating in them. I could go on, but you see what I mean. When people think NDHQ they think thousands of cubicle drones, but when the call for parade comes, it's not likely to be the Major from New Fur Hat Procurement 1-2-3 who's going to get the call, it's more likely going to be the MCpl who maintains his crypto.



Why not make it a rotating duty of some kind then? 

It would be like an episode of 'the Office' translated into a military ceremonial environment stag list, viz:

Public Duties Roster

Monday; 4th floor, Quarter Guard
Tuesday: 6th floor, Colour Party
Wednesday: Atrium Annex, Cenotaph Guard
Thursday: CDS' Office, Feu de Joie + 3 X ADCs
Friday: Everyone wear red for the visit of the Chinese Premier


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## Pusser (27 Nov 2015)

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> That's a really good point. I once had a CWO in the NCR remark to me that he could stand up a 100-man guard of Majors with less impact on the real world than a 100-man guard of Cpl/MCpl. Our Junior NCO's in the NCR tend to be busy doing the primary work of their trade -- the Geo types at Mapping and Charting Establishment, all the Signals types maintaining our monster servers and networks, the RMS Clerks that are sustaining admin for such a large organization, even the Image Techs at ADM(PA) and CFSU(O) Imaging Services that are supposed to be a resource for taking pictures of and publicizing our ceremonial events, not participating in them. I could go on, but you see what I mean. When people think NDHQ they think thousands of cubicle drones, but when the call for parade comes, it's not likely to be the Major from New Fur Hat Procurement 1-2-3 who's going to get the call, it's more likely going to be the MCpl who maintains his crypto.



Trouble is, have you ever seen the average major/LCdr march and do drill?  Truly depressing sometimes...


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## medicineman (27 Nov 2015)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Trouble is, have you ever seen the average major/LCdr march and do drill?  Truly depressing sometimes...



Call it "Officer Professional Development" then  ;D.

MM


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## Jarnhamar (27 Nov 2015)

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> That's a really good point. I once had a CWO in the NCR remark to me that he could stand up a 100-man guard of Majors with less impact on the real world than a 100-man guard of Cpl/MCpl. Our Junior NCO's in the NCR tend to be busy doing the primary work of their trade -- the Geo types at Mapping and Charting Establishment, all the Signals types maintaining our monster servers and networks, the RMS Clerks that are sustaining admin for such a large organization, even the Image Techs at ADM(PA) and CFSU(O) Imaging Services that are supposed to be a resource for taking pictures of and publicizing our ceremonial events, not participating in them. I could go on, but you see what I mean. When people think NDHQ they think thousands of cubicle drones, but when the call for parade comes, it's not likely to be the Major from New Fur Hat Procurement 1-2-3 who's going to get the call, it's more likely going to be the MCpl who maintains his crypto.



I believe that was the gist of the article. Rank has it's privileges but some troops have considerable special courses an training, treating them like phone operators and garbage sweepers can have a big detrimental effect on their morale and desire to stay in uniform.

Speaking about what the article said with regards to showing up to a building an hour early and waiting around. It may not seem like that big of a deal to some but when you have to arrange special child care for the following day where someone takes your kids an hour earlier (and you pay out the ass for it) then you show up somewhere and wait around for that hour it really kills morale.

Often our first reaction is "if you don't like it quit" but then when someone wants to quit we do a 180o turn and try to keep them in with high speed courses and other offers.


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## Jarnhamar (27 Nov 2015)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Trouble is, have you ever seen the average major/LCdr march and do drill?  Truly depressing sometimes...



Nothing beats doing 2 weeks straight of drill practice for a parade to have someone march walk out in front of the parade like it's a stroll in a park.


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## Remius (27 Nov 2015)

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> It's been tried, half-heartedly, in the past. I was on an opening of parliament when 3RCR provided the guard. The fact of the matter is that Petawawa views Ottawa ceremonial taskings as a burden not laid on other bases, and many of our other major bases are too far for road moves, making the cost of hotels and airlift excessive.
> 
> There has been some talk kicked about about having a standing Public Duties unit in the NCR -- the rotating task for the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier may be the first step toward this. And there would be no reason to shut down the clearly successful Army Reserve summer program -- thanks to the double fists of Posting Season and Summer Leave the Regular Force tends to lose a lot of capacity over the summer months.
> 
> On the whole, I think it's overdue. I think pulling Geo Techs and Comm Researchers off of their primary duty at short notice and putting them on parade, not because their current task is low priority, but because they are a Cpl/MCpl in the NCR is a silly way to allocate scarce resources. But a standing Public Duties unit would need infrastructure, and infrastructure in the NCR seems to be an ongoing drama.



My understanding is that the 3 reserve Guard units are expanding in numbers to help fill some of that role


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## dimsum (27 Nov 2015)

Remius said:
			
		

> My understanding is that the 3 reserve Guard units are expanding in numbers to help fill some of that role



The problem with that, and this has been mentioned already, is that they're dependent on who's available.  If VIP X shows up on a Tues morning with only a few days' notice, will those units be able to scrounge enough people in time?


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## dapaterson (27 Nov 2015)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> The problem with that, and this has been mentioned already, is that they're dependent on who's available.  If VIP X shows up on a Tues morning with only a few days' notice, will those units be able to scrounge enough people in time?



And given that the CGG are two hours away, and the GGHG four (on a good day), you may also be at the mercy of traffic.


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## Remius (27 Nov 2015)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> The problem with that, and this has been mentioned already, is that they're dependent on who's available.  If VIP X shows up on a Tues morning with only a few days' notice, will those units be able to scrounge enough people in time?



Which I assume is why they are expanding.  If unit X has more people to draw from then they are likely in a better position to fill or augment.


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## daftandbarmy (27 Nov 2015)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> And given that the CGG are two hours away, and the GGHG four (on a good day), you may also be at the mercy of traffic.



You could always give them the Airborne role so they can respond faster. 

It seems that ceremonial will become more important than operations with this new government so you could build a good business case  ;D


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## dapaterson (27 Nov 2015)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> It seems that ceremonial will become more important than operations with this new government so you could build a good business case  ;D



How so?  We're over a month into their mandate and we haven't seen a single change to rank insignia, a single unit resurrected from the Supplementary Order of Battle...


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## Jarnhamar (27 Nov 2015)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> You could always give them the Airborne role so they can respond faster.
> 
> It seems that ceremonial will become more important than operations with this new government so you could build a good business case  ;D


More running for PT and less ruck marches.


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## CountDC (27 Nov 2015)

Pusser said:
			
		

> TB policy for charging other government departments for services rendered does not apply to labour.  In fact, it only covers incremental costs.  For example, if vehicles were required for a task, DND can charge an OGD for fuel, but not a rental fee for the vehicle (the government already owns it) nor wages for the people driving it or riding in it (they're already being paid by the government).



Since when?  CFM gives you the rates to charge OGDs, DRMIS provides the means to transfer the funds from OGDs into DNDs coffers and in 2011/2012 I was billing OGDs for wages, one bill alone was in the $900k a month range.  I also billed them based on the CFM for any expenses for the move if they had to be posted. Yes the mbr has been paid by the CF/DND but we do have the option available to create an MOU and bill them to recover what we paid the member while he was working for them instead of us.


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## Pusser (27 Nov 2015)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Since when?  CFM gives you the rates to charge OGDs, DRMIS provides the means to transfer the funds from OGDs into DNDs coffers and in 2011/2012 I was billing OGDs for wages, one bill alone was in the $900k a month range.  I also billed them based on the CFM for any expenses for the move if they had to be posted. Yes the mbr has been paid by the CF/DND but we do have the option available to create an MOU and bill them to recover what we paid the member while he was working for them instead of us.



Admittedly, it's been awhile since I was in this position, but I'd be curious to know more details about your particular example.  I was referring to one-off taskings.


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## CountDC (27 Nov 2015)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Why not make it a rotating duty of some kind then?



When I was there it was.  I believe it was someone in the CF Chiefs area that kept a spreadsheet and would send out the calls to the different sections advising that it was their turn and how many bodies they were to provide.   Most parades were done by jrs but Remembrance day a lot of the SNCOs took the tasking so the jrs could have the day with their families.  

Where we generally agreed they needed to assign individuals to on at least a one year with 1 or 2 days a month scheduled for practices was the funeral guard.  Pulling people a few days prior to the funeral and giving them a few hours to practice was not the greatest.  Some people have not slow marched since basic so 20 years later don't look the greatest trying to relearn it.  As there are numerous funerals/internments in the year it would be good to have a standing core guard to call on for them.


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## daftandbarmy (27 Nov 2015)

CountDC said:
			
		

> When I was there it was.  I believe it was someone in the CF Chiefs area that kept a spreadsheet and would send out the calls to the different sections advising that it was their turn and how many bodies they were to provide.   Most parades were done by jrs but Remembrance day a lot of the SNCOs took the tasking so the jrs could have the day with their families.
> 
> Where we generally agreed they needed to assign individuals to on at least a one year with 1 or 2 days a month scheduled for practices was the funeral guard.  Pulling people a few days prior to the funeral and giving them a few hours to practice was not the greatest.  Some people have not slow marched since basic so 20 years later don't look the greatest trying to relearn it.  As there are numerous funerals/internments in the year it would be good to have a standing core guard to call on for them.



Hmmmm..... if only there was a well decked out combat arms unit, based in Ottawa, that could perform a ceremonial function, similar to the Googlie Fooglies, etc given a few Class B bucks?

Oh, that would be the Camerons ....


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## jollyjacktar (27 Nov 2015)

CountDC said:
			
		

> When I was there it was.  I believe it was someone in the CF Chiefs area that kept a spreadsheet and would send out the calls to the different sections advising that it was their turn and how many bodies they were to provide.   Most parades were done by jrs but Remembrance day a lot of the SNCOs took the tasking so the jrs could have the day with their families.
> 
> Where we generally agreed they needed to assign individuals to on at least a one year with 1 or 2 days a month scheduled for practices was the funeral guard.  Pulling people a few days prior to the funeral and giving them a few hours to practice was not the greatest.  Some people have not slow marched since basic so 20 years later don't look the greatest trying to relearn it.  As there are numerous funerals/internments in the year it would be good to have a standing core guard to call on for them.



Things haven't changed.  It is still at short notice,  internments are fairly numerous but GoH things come up too on a regular basis.  They do try to share it around as best they can.


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## Furniture (28 Nov 2015)

I think the CAF really should start looking at how we manage people's time more carefully, sure we are paid an annual salary but that's a poor excuse to waste people's time. The infamous 15 minutes early for the 15 minute early timing is a great example. As mentioned earlier it's not necessarily the time wasted at work that is the issue, but the planning to make it happen outside usual hours that is. Or the idea that all members must be in their work place all day whether or not there is actually anything for them to do, on the off chance that someone will call at 1545 with a manual labour job requiring 100+ pers to deal with. 

I'm not advocating for short work days all the time, but if we are routinely expecting our people to be at work early, or later than is normal we should also be routinely be sending them home when there is nothing requiring them at work. Sure some guys will spend less hours in the office than others, but that's already happening anyway. Some jobs require a 24/7 presence at work even when nothing happening, but not every sailor needs to be on a ship until 1545 Monday-Friday. Just as I'm sure not every infantry/artillery/armoured soldier needs to be in the hangar or break room until 1600 every day. Maybe more frequent and official early days for most would help compensate for the hours/days/weeks/months spent at sea and in the field away from family better than just $311 a month before taxes and a day off at end ex.


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## misratah500 (29 Nov 2015)

This thread reminds me of the changes in the west coast navy. They took sliders away from us and then switched from modified daily routine 1500 secure to 1545 secure in 2012. It was all optics bullshit that if FMF has to be there till 1600 why aren't we. The rumor was the Public Service complained.

The look on the admirals face at the town hall was priceless when I broke down the extra work time they would get out of us.

Modified Daily Routine 750-1500 with 10 minute stand easy at 1000 and lunch from 1200-1230 which we did for years by the way.

Normal Daily Routine 750-1545 with 10 minute stand easy at 1000, lunch from 1200-1300 and stand easy at 1430 which means an extra 5 minutes of work leaving me on board ship for 45 more minutes and worse traffic going home with the FMF workers and means my son sits in freaking after school care that much longer.

He was stunned and looked at his staff chief and said they would look into this. Of course nothing came of it. 

Then they took the blue boat away and short leave at xmas etc etc etc and they wonder why their is a fucking retention problem in the Navy.

How can people in such high positions of power be so ignorant to daily routines on ship.


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## jollyjacktar (29 Nov 2015)

Well, you're not paying for parking like Hfx and other locales, so it's not all doom and gloom.


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## PuckChaser (29 Nov 2015)

misratah500 said:
			
		

> Then they took the blue boat away and short leave at xmas etc etc etc and they wonder why their is a ******* retention problem in the Navy.



Wait wait wait wait.... you guys don't get 2x short for December and 2x short for January over Christmas?!?! Is that just one ship, west coast Navy, or the whole thing? That's an absolute travesty.


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## misratah500 (30 Nov 2015)

The paid parking I'm sure they're looking at as hard as they can, but their is no precendence in the neighbourhood cause there is no paid parking in Esquimalt besides I think 2 private lots. And it was 2 short for either NY or XMAS and MARPAC hasn't had those in like 3 years.


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## Scoobie Newbie (30 Nov 2015)

What's the blue boat?  And what's its relevance?


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## daftandbarmy (30 Nov 2015)

WeatherdoG said:
			
		

> I think the CAF really should start looking at how we manage people's time more carefully, sure we are paid an annual salary but that's a poor excuse to waste people's time. The infamous 15 minutes early for the 15 minute early timing is a great example. As mentioned earlier it's not necessarily the time wasted at work that is the issue, but the planning to make it happen outside usual hours that is. Or the idea that all members must be in their work place all day whether or not there is actually anything for them to do, on the off chance that someone will call at 1545 with a manual labour job requiring 100+ pers to deal with.
> 
> I'm not advocating for short work days all the time, but if we are routinely expecting our people to be at work early, or later than is normal we should also be routinely be sending them home when there is nothing requiring them at work. Sure some guys will spend less hours in the office than others, but that's already happening anyway. Some jobs require a 24/7 presence at work even when nothing happening, but not every sailor needs to be on a ship until 1545 Monday-Friday. Just as I'm sure not every infantry/artillery/armoured soldier needs to be in the hangar or break room until 1600 every day. Maybe more frequent and official early days for most would help compensate for the hours/days/weeks/months spent at sea and in the field away from family better than just $311 a month before taxes and a day off at end ex.



Or just reallocate a few of those sick days so you can pay for all those Bde level exercises...

Public servants ‘gaming the system’ — take twice as many sick days as private sector workers: report

OTTAWA — Canada’s public servants take up to twice the number of sick days a year as private sector workers do, because of different motivations, work cultures and rules that encourage “gaming the system,” says a new report by the Macdonald-Laurier Institute.

Phillip Cross, Statistics Canada’s former chief economic analyst, concludes in the report that the existing sick-leave regime in the federal government should be overhauled because attitudes and cultural practices “rather than biology and medicine” are at the root of the problem.

Cross, who made his name as a straight-shooting analyst, said a “sickness in the system” accounts for why public servants claim 10.5 days a year for illness while private sector employees average 6.4 days. The overall public sector – including education and health care workers – is close to the federal average at 10.6 days a year.

He said differences between the sectors are so significant that working in the public sector itself is a determinant of sick-leave use, rather than exposure to illness or injury.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/public-servants-gaming-the-system-take-twice-as-many-sick-days-as-private-sector-workers-report


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## Furniture (30 Nov 2015)

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> What's the blue boat?  And what's its relevance?



It was a shuttle ferry that crossed from the fueling jetty near the PMQs in Colwood to Esquimalt dockyard, it was eliminated because it was against TB rules regarding free transport to and from work. It's closing forced people to drive around the harbour adding 20-60min to the commute to and from work depending on time of year and construction. It ceased at about the time sliders (Friday afternoons off for non essential pers) ended. 

It's relevant because parking on base is insufficent for the number of pers and vehicles, so members are forced to be at work extra early just for parking, and to beat traffic which was less of an issue in the days of the blue boat.


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## Colin Parkinson (30 Nov 2015)

It was to good of an idea and someone should have had the balls to tell TB to pound sand.


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## Halifax Tar (30 Nov 2015)

Colin P said:
			
		

> It was to good of an idea and someone should have had the balls to tell TB to pound sand.



You could apply that statment to alot of things that have be instituted over the last 5-10 years.


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## Scoobie Newbie (30 Nov 2015)

WeatherdoG said:
			
		

> It was a shuttle ferry that crossed from the fueling jetty near the PMQs in Colwood to Esquimalt dockyard, it was eliminated because it was against TB rules regarding free transport to and from work. It's closing forced people to drive around the harbour adding 20-60min to the commute to and from work depending on time of year and construction. It ceased at about the time sliders (Friday afternoons off for non essential pers) ended.
> 
> It's relevant because parking on base is insufficent for the number of pers and vehicles, so members are forced to be at work extra early just for parking, and to beat traffic which was less of an issue in the days of the blue boat.



Thank you.


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## Pusser (30 Nov 2015)

WeatherdoG said:
			
		

> It was a shuttle ferry that crossed from the fueling jetty near the PMQs in Colwood to Esquimalt dockyard, it was eliminated because it was against TB rules regarding free transport to and from work. It's closing forced people to drive around the harbour adding 20-60min to the commute to and from work depending on time of year and construction. It ceased at about the time sliders (Friday afternoons off for non essential pers) ended.
> 
> It's relevant because parking on base is insufficent for the number of pers and vehicles, so members are forced to be at work extra early just for parking, and to beat traffic which was less of an issue in the days of the blue boat.



To put things a little bit more into perspective, the blue boats on both coasts were put into place when the majority of married sailors lived either in Shannon Park (East Coast) or Belmont Park (West Coast).  Very few of these sailors owned cars and the two married quarters areas were isolated by the standards of the day (we're talking about the 1950s).  There was also little to no public transportation available then.  The blue boats were a necessary item then.  Fast forward 50 years and sailors are much better paid and the majority no longer live in married quarters.  Notwithstanding that the blue boats had long since outlived their purpose when they were retired, one of the main reasons they were stopped is that the boats themselves were old and beyond their life expectancy.  The Navy actually looked into replacing them, but the cost of doing so was prohibitive, especially when considered with the other factors.

As an aside, TB policy still entitles members posted to certain locations (generally isolated with no access to public transportation) to Commuting Assistance to/from the nearest suitable residential community.  This can take the form of either a mileage allowance or the provision of transportation.  The blue boats met this requirement in 1950 for members living in Shannon/Belmont Park - not so much in 2015.  If anything, the blue boats lasted a lot longer than they should have.


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## Oldgateboatdriver (30 Nov 2015)

There was also blue boat service in Halifax, between the PMQ's at Shannon Park, the Annex and the QHM jetty in the Dockyard. Same reason for existing, and I guess for terminating (if it has been terminated, which I don't know but suspect if based on the same TB rules).

For those who wonder, they were referred to as "blue" boats because they wore the CFAV's darker grey paint scheme, which had a strangely bluish tint (just like our ship side grey has a greenish tint which is perfect daytime camouflage in the fog banks found most of the year on our coasts).


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## Eye In The Sky (30 Nov 2015)

Short leave is at the CO's prerogative is it not?  Is there a MARPACORD that says "no CO shall grant short leave"?


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## medicineman (30 Nov 2015)

Last I looked there wasn't...however my guess is that this ensures everyone takes their leave allotments and nobody has leftovers that have to be explained away to higher HQ and paid out.  Also, as has been noted elsewhere, many folks feel that their short and special days are entitlements vice earned rewads at CO's discretion.  I FEEL it's done to prove a point...just MHO though.

MM


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## Scoobie Newbie (30 Nov 2015)

The CO can give 2 short per month. That's why on a Xmas leave pass you'll often see 2 short in Dec and 2 short in Jan


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## medicineman (30 Nov 2015)

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> The CO can give 2 short per month. That's why on a Xmas leave pass you'll often see 2 short in Dec and 2 short in Jan



Operative word is "can"...doesn't mean they have to.  

MM


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## Eye In The Sky (30 Nov 2015)

medicineman said:
			
		

> Last I looked there wasn't...however my guess is that this ensures everyone takes their leave allotments and nobody has leftovers that have to be explained away to higher HQ and paid out.  MM



I have a bit of an issue with this though; coming from a unit that has a pretty steady op tempo, sometimes mbr's haven't burned much leave because they've been away, or tasked, or critical to ops and of no fault of their own.  Then, when Xmas leave rolls around, they are not given the Shorts that everyone who has min Ann leave days left to burn 'so no one has to sign off on the Accum days".  So in essence the people who are working the most, and NOT able to use their vacation days, get screwed of out Short days - but IAW my understanding of the intent of Short days, they are the people the CO should see as most deserving.   rly:


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## daftandbarmy (30 Nov 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I have a bit of an issue with this though; coming from a unit that has a pretty steady op tempo, sometimes mbr's haven't burned much leave because they've been away, or tasked, or critical to ops and of no fault of their own.  Then, when Xmas leave rolls around, they are not given the Shorts that everyone who has min Ann leave days left to burn 'so no one has to sign off on the Accum days".  So in essence the people who are working the most, and NOT able to use their vacation days, get screwed of out Short days - but IAW my understanding of the intent of Short days, they are the people the CO should see as most deserving.   rly:



Is there a role there for a diligent Adjt/CWO/MWO network that tracks and advocates for these kinds of things? 

As I recall, my CSMs and CCs were pretty good at telling me what leave passes to sign and when etc in the best 'Radar O'Reilly' fashion...


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## Scoobie Newbie (30 Nov 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I have a bit of an issue with this though; coming from a unit that has a pretty steady op tempo, sometimes mbr's haven't burned much leave because they've been away, or tasked, or critical to ops and of no fault of their own.  Then, when Xmas leave rolls around, they are not given the Shorts that everyone who has min Ann leave days left to burn 'so no one has to sign off on the Accum days".  So in essence the people who are working the most, and NOT able to use their vacation days, get screwed of out Short days - but IAW my understanding of the intent of Short days, they are the people the CO should see as most deserving.   rly:


I've seen that for March break where some guys have enough annual to cover it while others that are short 2 days get the 2 day short to make up the shortfall.


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## Eye In The Sky (30 Nov 2015)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Is there a role there for a diligent Adjt/CWO/MWO network that tracks and advocates for these kinds of things?
> 
> As I recall, my CSMs and CCs were pretty good at telling me what leave passes to sign and when etc in the best 'Radar O'Reilly' fashion...



There is 'system; it runs similar to but different from an Army unit though;  I don't know the details about 'who' said "no short if over XX days Ann left", but I know its happening.  

Sqn's are different beats with their pro's, and with their con's.  This is one of the con's.


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## medicineman (30 Nov 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I have a bit of an issue with this though; coming from a unit that has a pretty steady op tempo, sometimes mbr's haven't burned much leave because they've been away, or tasked, or critical to ops and of no fault of their own.  Then, when Xmas leave rolls around, they are not given the Shorts that everyone who has min Ann leave days left to burn 'so no one has to sign off on the Accum days".  So in essence the people who are working the most, and NOT able to use their vacation days, get screwed of out Short days - but IAW my understanding of the intent of Short days, they are the people the CO should see as most deserving.   rly:



I'm not saying it's right, but I'm saying it's the rationale as I can see it.  I've been in units where it was like pulling hen's teeth (one on that coast as well as one elsewhere..oddly enough, both had the same CO at the times I was in each place) to get short days because the CO wasn't willing to take on that potential little budget faux pas. 

MM


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## Scoobie Newbie (30 Nov 2015)

How does effect a budget?


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## medicineman (30 Nov 2015)

IIC, CO's are made to pay out of unit operating funds the costs associate with paid out leave days over "X" without a waiver.

MM


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## PuckChaser (30 Nov 2015)

medicineman said:
			
		

> Last I looked there wasn't...however my guess is that this ensures everyone takes their leave allotments and nobody has leftovers that have to be explained away to higher HQ and paid out.  Also, as has been noted elsewhere, many folks feel that their short and special days are entitlements vice earned rewads at CO's discretion.  I FEEL it's done to prove a point...just MHO though.
> 
> MM


And yet I've seen a unit go from a CO who refused to hand out short other than at Christmas with appalling levels of morale, to a CO who handed out short to make extra long weekends and compensate for long exercises, create lots of morale and work ethic. You can't give troops the stick all the time, they'll eventually know the carrot doesn't exist. A small gesture like a short day for job well done can do wonders for the morale of the troops.


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## Eye In The Sky (30 Nov 2015)

Hmm.  I accum'd 5 x days the last 2 FYs, I haven't been made to cash them out and I'd take them as leave days before I did so...if I had my way.  I recall 48ish% tax coming off the last pers I knew who cashed days in...I could be starting to get Somezhemiers though.


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## Scoobie Newbie (30 Nov 2015)

It's my understanding payouts are optional. Besides, your supervisor must be a thud fuck if he can't track your annual days (more so Army and Airforce). If Mar rolls around and you exceed the March break plan then use them in early Mar and don't top up those that don't have enough for Mar break. I assume everyone other then SOF should be able to predict deployments and such. If something skips through the cracks such as you were tracking a pirate mothership off the coast of Africa then you simply carry those days over. There can't be that many people in that boat.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (30 Nov 2015)

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> I assume everyone other then SOF should be able to predict deployments and such.



Some yes, some no.  Some Sqn's are very busy places.


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## misratah500 (30 Nov 2015)

As mentioned before short leave was meant for a job well done by hard working personnel. So in the navy that is traditionally a ship that had  super busy schedule. But since you have that busy schedule and you can't take a lot of leave when you want to then you end up being denied those short days. Someone ashore will be getting them though because they burned their leave while you were away sailing on exercise because the CO is afraid you might have handful of days left at the end of the year. Do they deserve it versus you with your 200+ days at sea and 1 in 8 duty tech watch while they sit at their 8-4 job at the BOR. Not in my opinion they don't, but they'll get it and the guys in the fleet won't. It's working almost exactly opposite of the intention of what it should be because alot of CO's just don't care. 

Being honest here most CO tours are what 2 years now, they parachute into the boat do everything they can to look good for themselves and then fuck off back to Ottawa or parts unknown while the crew stays behind some there for 5+ years. I had a MARS officer tell me once that NCM's are just training aids for naval officers. When I reflect on the purpose of why I was away from home, TGEX, ORO course, FNO courses he's not far off.


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## daftandbarmy (1 Dec 2015)

misratah500 said:
			
		

> As mentioned before short leave was meant for a job well done by hard working personnel. So in the navy that is traditionally a ship that had  super busy schedule. But since you have that busy schedule and you can't take a lot of leave when you want to then you end up being denied those short days. Someone ashore will be getting them though because they burned their leave while you were away sailing on exercise because the CO is afraid you might have handful of days left at the end of the year. Do they deserve it versus you with your 200+ days at sea and 1 in 8 duty tech watch while they sit at their 8-4 job at the BOR. Not in my opinion they don't, but they'll get it and the guys in the fleet won't. It's working almost exactly opposite of the intention of what it should be because alot of CO's just don't care.
> 
> Being honest here most CO tours are what 2 years now, they parachute into the boat do everything they can to look good for themselves and then frig off back to Ottawa or parts unknown while the crew stays behind some there for 5+ years. _*I had a MARS officer tell me once that NCM's are just training aids for naval officers*_. When I reflect on the purpose of why I was away from home, TGEX, ORO course, FNO courses he's not far off.


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## Scoobie Newbie (1 Dec 2015)

It sure felt that way in the Indantry some days as well. 

Are those guys working 8-4 getting sea pay?


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## misratah500 (1 Dec 2015)

Most of the time no, but then you get the guys that are posted to a ship but through some sort of reason or injury can't sail and get landed to those units for weeks and months at a time.


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## medicineman (1 Dec 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Hmm.  I accum'd 5 x days the last 2 FYs, I haven't been made to cash them out and I'd take them as leave days before I did so...if I had my way.  I recall 48ish% tax coming off the last pers I knew who cashed days in...I could be starting to get Somezhemiers though.



Let me rephrase it - "X" accumulated days without a waiver, regardless of how they're given, comes out of the unit budget.  Some CO's, like the one I mentioned previously, are more, shall we say, concerned, about the business aspects of their units than they are about the military side.  This person, as a for instance, spent more time at CO's O Groups doing business planning than unit leadership stuff - I dreaded going to them as the Ops Sgt and as the Clinic WO for those reasons and tended to find a reason to sneak back to my office at first opportunity.  The Command Meeting part would last about 20 minutes and the rest would take up the better part of the afternoon, like 3 hours worth or more.  Stuff like that shows up in other areas - leave, unit PT or lack of, "management retreats" vice leadership conferences, morale/stress, catering to units vs telling them how things will be done and worrying about financial bottom lines instead of personnel.  It sometimes feels like, as misratah noted, we're more part of someone's graduate school dissertation more than highly trained military personnel.   

MM


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## Lumber (1 Dec 2015)

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> The CO can give 2 short per month. That's why on a Xmas leave pass you'll often see 2 short in Dec and 2 short in Jan



1 year in Victoria and 4 years in Halifax and I didn't see even 1 short day for the Christmas break.

I had 2 very proactive XOs on one of my ships, and because they knew we had busy sailing schedules starting in the fall, they mandated that everyone be down to 10 days of annual leave by August 31st (5 days for Christmas and 5 days for March break). We had 2 designated leave periods during the summer to ensure this was possible. Exceptions were allowed, however, they required a memo with a plan on how you were going to spend your leave, and your supervisors concurrence that you we're otherwise needed. Still no short though.


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## CountDC (1 Dec 2015)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Or just reallocate a few of those sick days so you can pay for all those Bde level exercises...
> 
> Public servants ‘gaming the system’ — take twice as many sick days as private sector workers: report
> 
> ...



I remember in the 90s when a civvie I was supervisor of submitted a leave pass to travel out of country with a week of sick leave on it.  She felt it was an entitlement and she should be able to take it whenever she wanted.  Couldn't understand why I wouldnt action it, went to the sgt who backed me up so she called the union to complain.  She ended up changing her leave pass.


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## CountDC (1 Dec 2015)

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> It's my understanding payouts are optional.



yes and no -  If you simply fail to use your leave and don't recieve authority to carry over then you will have an automatic cashout (and your thud should be standing with heels together explaining to their supervisor how it happened).  It is optional for the CO as he decides if you carry over or get cashed out.


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## Halifax Tar (1 Dec 2015)

misratah500 said:
			
		

> I had a MARS officer tell me once that NCM's are just training aids for naval officers. When I reflect on the purpose of why I was away from home, TGEX, ORO course, FNO courses he's not far off.



I harbour no illusions that when we return command will be posted out, a new one posted in, with a good chunk of the wardroom posted out as well and the C&POs and below will for the most part stay intact and suffer through another grueling sailing schedule.  I don’t really fault the Officers, especially the ones in command.  They get one kick at the can and taking over after a deployment must be big boots to fill.  So if they want to progress the crew must be driven, again.  It’s a vicious cycle in the Navy. 

Having said all I would say if you want to measure their success you need look no further than the list of past CDSs we have had.  How many have been MARS Os or Naval Officers at all, and how successful were they?  That IMHO is a profound measuring stick.


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## daftandbarmy (1 Dec 2015)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Having said all I would say if you want to measure their success you need look no further than the list of past CDSs we have had.  How many have been MARS Os or Naval Officers at all, and how successful were they?  That IMHO is a profound measuring stick.



As a result of one of them I still have this strange urge to search my filing cabinets  ;D


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## Eye In The Sky (1 Dec 2015)

Range declaration 20 odd years ago:

"I have no live rounds, empty casing, or Somalia documents, in my possession SIR!"


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## OldSolduer (1 Dec 2015)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> As a result of one of them I still have this strange urge to search my filing cabinets  ;D



How true. We searched our Coy Tpt files and we couldn't for the life of us find any Somalia documents.....


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## The Bread Guy (1 Dec 2015)

C'mon, now - it's not like it was _HIS_ fault, right?  >


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## jollyjacktar (1 Dec 2015)

I remember that treasure hunt well.  I had some fun watching the reaction of a Snr NCO late in the day who came across me shredding some blank papers and demanded to know what I was shredding when I responded "it's nothing, just some Somalia documents I found stuck in the back of the drawer of the cabinet".  I thought they were going to have a stroke.   ;D  Good times, good times.


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## daftandbarmy (1 Dec 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Range declaration 20 odd years ago:
> 
> "I have no live rounds, empty casing, or Somalia documents, in my possession SIR!"



Gold!  :nod:


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## dapaterson (1 Dec 2015)

The look on my Adjt's face when I announced I'd found a Somalia document in the pay office was priceless.  His death threats when I handed over a copy of the CANFORGEN were just the icing on the cake.


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## Eye In The Sky (1 Dec 2015)

;D


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## SeaKingTacco (1 Dec 2015)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> As a result of one of them I still have this strange urge to search my filing cabinets  ;D



I would point out that the CDS in question was Boyle and he was a pilot.

I have an excellent memory on this point, as I was as near to ground zero on that issue as it was possible to get on that particular day...


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## Scoobie Newbie (1 Dec 2015)

You seem no worse for wear.


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## cavalryman (1 Dec 2015)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> I would point out that the CDS in question was Boyle and he was a pilot.
> 
> I have an excellent memory on this point, as I was as near to ground zero on that issue as it was possible to get on that particular day...


And I remember doing a little jig the day he 'left'.  I was ground zero on a few files when Boyle was ADM (Per) and he was the only 3 star in 35 years that had me walk out of 101 after giving a briefing and straight into the E&C for a pint or three.  No other senior officer had ever tossed me under the bus in public before and none has since.  He was a damned good captain though, from what I heard.


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## Pusser (2 Dec 2015)

Ah yes, I remember it well - the Jean Boyle School of Leadership:  all faults are those of your staff.


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## Eye In The Sky (2 Dec 2015)

There is an urban lengend about a parade, an Officers mess and a PPCLI MCpl who called him out during the following townhall.


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## MJP (2 Dec 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> There is an urban lengend about a parade, an Officers mess and a PPCLI MCpl who called him out during the following townhall.



Is that the one where someone listed the wasted man hours?


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## medicineman (2 Dec 2015)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> As a result of one of them I still have this strange urge to search my filing cabinets  ;D



Urgh...I remember having to go through that charade.  Of course, my Clinic HCA at the time had been in Somalia - seem to recall the smell of smoke coming from his office that afternoon  ;D.  I found documents dating back almost to the Vietnam war, but no Somalia things.

MM


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## Old Sweat (2 Dec 2015)

I had been given a used secure hard drive from the NDOC a while before Somalia. I retired at the end of October 1994 and a while later found that my old hard drive had the Somalia op logs on it, a good deal of which I had written over.


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## Gunner98 (3 Dec 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> There is an urban lengend about a parade, an Officers mess and a PPCLI MCpl who called him out during the following townhall.



I was a witness to a Base Briefing in Shilo when a young Artillery Officer questioned why CDS Boyle felt it OK to continue the tradition of civilian clothes on Friday so the CDS et al could go drinking at lunch and blend into the crowd.  This young Gunner Offr was directed to write a letter of apology to CDS Boyle for his inappropriate question. His apology was vetted from his Battery Commander all of the way to the CDS.


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## Scoobie Newbie (3 Dec 2015)

How long was his career?


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## Pusser (3 Dec 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> There is an urban lengend about a parade, an Officers mess and a PPCLI MCpl who called him out during the following townhall.



The story I remember was that of a junior member on parade who, when approached by the CDS (the reviewing officer) made a comment to the effect that things would be a lot better if they hadn't been standing too long on a parade square waiting for him to finish drinking in the Officers' Mess.  I seem to recall it happened in Halifax though, so I'm not sure a PPCLI MCpl was involved.

The trouble with stories like this that they are like fine wines - they get better with age...


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## Eye In The Sky (3 Dec 2015)

It's been some years now but I thought it was a parade in Calgary when 1 PPCLI was still there.   ???  I also seem to recall a CBC story about the MCpl getting charged, but that might just something old age put in my head when it started knocking on my door...


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## Old Sweat (3 Dec 2015)

I recall at the time that the CDS kept a battalion (I think in Western Canada) on parade waiting in the cold while he did whatever in the mess. No other details provided, but it was not a well-received story.

I also vaguely recall CBC reporter Brian Stewart stating to Peter Mansbridge after JB was fired that the CDS had had a plan to fix the forces which involved addressing the regimental system. Stewart also stated most of Boyle's problems came from senior PPCLI officers, which was repeated by Peter Worthington in a column. Worthington listed a number  of names including Paul Addy, late-RCAC.


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## jollyjacktar (3 Dec 2015)

I will say one and only one thing positive about the Boyle on everyone's bottom.  He was trying to get a really decent pay raise before going where he richly deserved.


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## Scoobie Newbie (3 Dec 2015)

Well if the story is true that is certainly deplorable behaviour and his RSM should have grabbed him by ear to the parade.


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## daftandbarmy (4 Dec 2015)

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> Well if the story is true that is certainly deplorable behaviour and his RSM should have grabbed him by ear to the parade.



'Never interrupt your enemy while he is making a mistake' 

Napoleon


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## Eye In The Sky (4 Dec 2015)

:rofl:


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## medicineman (4 Dec 2015)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> I recall at the time that the CDS kept a battalion (I think in Western Canada) on parade waiting in the cold while he did whatever in the mess. No other details provided, but it was not a well-received story.



Sounds a lot like a different Royal, one who's name is a homonym for the plural of male genitalia...

MM


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## jollyjacktar (5 Dec 2015)

medicineman said:
			
		

> Sounds a lot like a different Royal, one who's name is a homonym for the plural of male genitalia...
> 
> MM



I remember Jimmy in Calgary.   Good times, good times.  Maybe that's where the term belt fed......  comes from.


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## medicineman (5 Dec 2015)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I remember Jimmy in Calgary.   Good times, good times.  Maybe that's where the term belt fed......  comes from.



As do I - the only Brigade Commander who never chatted with me at GOC's inspections since I'm 6'2" and he didn't/doesn't seem to like tall people.  I was alright with that anyway, since he'd likely take too long to get out what he wanted to say and it would likely end in the words "CHCHCHCHCHAAAAAAARGE THTHTHTHIS MMMMMMMMMAN"  [.

MM


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## jollyjacktar (5 Dec 2015)

medicineman said:
			
		

> As do I - the only Brigade Commander who never chatted with me at GOC's inspections since I'm 6'2" and he didn't/doesn't seem to like tall people.  I was alright with that anyway, since he'd likely take too long to get out what he wanted to say and it would likely end in the words "CHCHCHCHCHAAAAAAARGE THTHTHTHIS MMMMMMMMMAN"  [.
> 
> MM



I do remember hearing of his PPCLI GOC inspection where he supposedly came across one Cpl who also had the same speech impediment Jimmy initially thought the Cpl was trying to make fun of him with his verbal replies to his questions.  I don't honestly know if it's a true story but the play by play of the story brought smiles to many faces at the thought of Jimmy's safeties lifting.


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## medicineman (5 Dec 2015)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I do remember hearing of his PPCLI GOC inspection where he supposedly came across one Cpl who also had the same speech impediment Jimmy initially thought the Cpl was trying to make fun of him with his verbal replies to his questions.  I don't honestly know if it's a true story but the play by play of the story brought smiles to many faces at the thought of Jimmy's safeties lifting.



An officer in my reserve unit used to be with 3RCR when he was the CO there, as are a couple of other people I know.  It was a soldier in 3RCR - the RSM had to take Jimmy aside and let him know he had a bad stutter.  There was a rumour in my unit of a girl that loaded all her lingerie drawer into her ruck sack and when she was questioned by him as to why her issue (old style) gitch wasn't in there, replied "Have you ever tried securing a pad to loose boxers in the field Sir?".  Apparently he looked like a fish out of water as he walked away...

MM


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## Old Sweat (5 Dec 2015)

The first trip my staff college course (1970-1971) took was to Gagetown in September 70. JC was a captain in 2 RCR and one of the DS (who had a stutter himself) introduced him to one of my classmates who also had a heavy stutter. It was worth the price of admission.


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## jollyjacktar (5 Dec 2015)

medicineman said:
			
		

> An officer in my reserve unit used to be with 3RCR when he was the CO there, as are a couple of other people I know.  It was a soldier in 3RCR - the RSM had to take Jimmy aside and let him know he had a bad stutter.  There was a rumour in my unit of a girl that loaded all her lingerie drawer into her ruck sack and when she was questioned by him as to why her issue (old style) gitch wasn't in there, replied "Have you ever tried securing a pad to loose boxers in the field Sir?".  Apparently he looked like a fish out of water as he walked away...
> 
> MM



 :rofl:  on the panties     As for the other, I thought it had a ring of truth to the story somewhere.



			
				Old Sweat said:
			
		

> The first trip my staff college course (1970-1971) took was to Gagetown in September 70. JC was a captain in 2 RCR and one of the DS (who had a stutter himself) introduced him to one of my classmates who also had a heavy stutter. It was worth the price of admission.



Yes, it would have been.   ;D

I will say one thing for the little bastard.  At least he was willing to live the way he demanded we did in the field.  I'll give him that.


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## medicineman (6 Dec 2015)

All I can say is I'm glad I didn't get down to Suffield for COP COBRA - I had a broken ankle at the time - by all accounts things didn't go well, on one of the good days.

MM


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