# POW Training 1980s



## Lightguns (12 Apr 2017)

Anyone seen this?  I never really thought about this as anything more than a training simulation. 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canadian-soldiers-prisoner-war-training-wainwright-alberta-1.4053351

I have been hog tied and left laying in a mud puddle, laid on the floor of Grizzly, handcuffed and used as a foot rest, handcuffed in my underwear and not fed or watered for a half day.  Been in a little concertina cage with 10 other guys with bucket to pee in.  It was all in good exercise fun or at least I thought so back then.


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## X Royal (14 Apr 2017)

Although I wasn't there when this happened, it's not beyond reason to believe without proper supervision that training like this could go over board.


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## FSTO (14 Apr 2017)

X Royal said:
			
		

> Although I wasn't there when this happened, it's not beyond reason to believe without proper supervision that training like this could go over board.



Yes somebody has to be there to pull back on the leash before the lads go all lord of the flies.


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## PuckChaser (14 Apr 2017)

X Royal said:
			
		

> Although I wasn't there when this happened, it's not beyond reason to believe without proper supervision that training like this could go over board.



This is why there's a real training plan with proper supervision and trained staff to administer it now.


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## RocketRichard (14 Apr 2017)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> This is why there's a real training plan with proper supervision and trained staff to administer it now.


Yes, things sure have changed since the 80's. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rifleman62 (14 Apr 2017)

There were Int pers conducting "interrogations" as well as an after action debrief by the C of C and Int. Included tips on surviving, dos and don't.


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## FormerHorseGuard (14 Apr 2017)

After reading the news story first on facebook, then here. I have some thoughts to share.

1) i have read many first hand accounts of Canadians being held as pows, not an easy time.
Germans exucuted pows for escape attemps, for any reason including just not wanting to deal with having pows to take care of. POWS were forced to march or herded in closed rail cars and not fed or watered or any medical attention
No bathrooms on a cattle car for people or privacy.
Forced labour in mines etc, handcuffed for hours each day as a form of pay back . Life was not always great for Canadian POWs in the hands of the German.
2) Canadian POWs in the Pacific, faced daily torture, no food, or food shortages, no medical treatments, daily beatings, forced physical labour, human medical test subjects, forced death marches. No red cross interventions

3) Korea conflict pows were treated no better.

Personally was picked to attend the training camp for A-stan as civilie, they had a lecture on being captured, what might happen to us, rape, torture, beheadings or something worse. 
I think it was only good guess work, nothing concrete was known as what might or would happen if taken.

This sort of training should not be conducted at unit level, it would lack the experts and knowledge, and lack the control factors.
This sort of training requires medical persons to conduct interviews and give medical aid if there is a breakdown
Requires experts in knowing limits before breaking a person. Also requires help in rebuilding a person at end of exercise. 
But this sort of training is important if done right. 
Sounds like this training was not well planned or supervised.
Just my personal thoughts right or wrong
0


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## SupersonicMax (14 Apr 2017)

Formal SERE training is not conducted at the unit level, at least not in the RCAF.  It is run by CFSAT in Winnipeg with some very good practical training.  Because of the nature of the training, the staff is carefully selected and there is good supervision to avoid abuses.

IMO, continuing training could be conducted at the unit level with a reduced practical aspect.


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## OldSolduer (14 Apr 2017)

FormerHorseGuard said:
			
		

> After reading the news story first on facebook, then here. I have some thoughts to share.
> 
> 
> This sort of training should not be conducted at unit level, it would lack the experts and knowledge, and lack the control factors.
> ...



And it must not be a good idea fairy scheme where the officers decide they are going to do and the NCO's follow them blindly "cuz the OC told us to".

It must be a course with proper staffing and oversight. The course officer must be no less than a senior captain with an MWO as his CSM. The course should have a senior MedTech or PA on staff as well. 
And not everyone needs a course like this. Aircrew, high risk units (CSOR?) etc. Just my thoughts.

And I never took training like this but then again when I joined the earth was still ruled by T Rex....


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## George Wallace (15 Apr 2017)

We had the Field MPs run us through this in 4 CMBG.  We also ran one in conjunction with 1 CAG, where we were the enemy searching for the Baden pilots.  In all cases that I know of, in 4 CMBG and then back in 2 CMBG, no one overstep the line and abused personnel to the extent that these three claim.


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## George Wallace (24 Apr 2017)

Here we go again;


Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

From CBC



> 'Embarrassment to Canadians': abuse, humiliation occurred at bases across country, soldiers say
> *Recruit treatment, lack of apology 'tarnishing' Canada's image, says torture victim advocate*
> By Rosa Marchitelli, Rachel Ward, CBC News Posted: Apr 24, 2017 5:00 AM ET Last Updated: Apr 24, 2017 8:25 AM ET
> 
> ...



More on LINK.


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## jollyjacktar (24 Apr 2017)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> We had the Field MPs run us through this in 4 CMBG.  We also ran one in conjunction with 1 CAG, where we were the enemy searching for the Baden pilots.  In all cases that I know of, in 4 CMBG and then back in 2 CMBG, no one overstep the line and abused personnel to the extent that these three claim.



I remember doing POW cage training for the INT types in Wainwright when I was with 1MPPL.  The "POWs" did have bags over their heads and they were restrained as per SOP of the day as well as there was annoying noise blaring over the loud speaker system.  They were made to kneel and when we interacted with them we didn't speak to them but would thump on our thighs to let them know we were there to move them around etc.  They would be taken into the INT types for their part of the process.  We weren't rough with the guys going through the training and made sure no lines were crossed in our dealings with them.  I am also sure, it was a walk in the park compared to whatever treatment they would receive in a real world scenario, especially in today's bad guy reality.


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## daftandbarmy (24 Apr 2017)

I wonder how much we should be sharing about this subject on an open forum given that this is currently 'in play' in a legal context?


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## Cloud Cover (24 Apr 2017)

Well, speaking for myself only, I have learned from this thread is that whatever the E/E and interrogation training standards, supervision, and methods might have been in the 80's and 90's, they are not the standards of today, which is good considering we have gone through at least one war since then!!   NOBODY here seems to be approving, endorsing or encouraging of the things that are described in the article.   

My thoughts are: given our current enemies in warfare, who do not play by the rules and apparently prefer to dismember, drown or torch their prisoners in cages, preparing our armed forces members for what might be expected in case of capture seems to be an essential and bona fide military skill to be learned. I do not know what the tipping point into illegal treatment might be in a training case scenario where the members are (ostensibly) consenting to some level of severe treatment that (again) remains within the bounds of essential military training and also within the law.  

That being said, it must be done properly and lawfully, without abuse of authority or senseless, sadistic use of power.  I am of  the view that no member of the armed forces should be ordered under threat of court martial to undertake this sort of training. That is not consent.  However, the same member must understand that they are declining to learn an essential military skill, and therefore may no longer be employable.  Classic military Catch 22 for the member, and potentially for the country if this skill is removed from training experiences.


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## George Wallace (24 Apr 2017)

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> That being said, it must be done properly and lawfully, without abuse of authority or senseless, sadistic use of power.  I am of  the view that no member of the armed forces should be ordered under threat of court martial to undertake this sort of training. That is not consent.  However, the same member must understand that they are declining to learn an essential military skill, and therefore may no longer be employable.  Classic military Catch 22 for the member, and potentially for the country if this skill is removed from training experiences.



Absolutely, it should be done properly and lawfully without abuse of authority or senseless, sadistic use of power by the people running it.  It should also be as realistic as possible.  It is not intended to be a course where you all sit around and hold hands and sing "kumbaya".

I am curious as to where the "ordered under threat of Courts Martial to take this training" entered this discussion.


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## The Bread Guy (24 Apr 2017)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> ... I am curious as to where the "ordered under threat of Courts Martial to take this training" entered this discussion.


Not mentioned in either of the two stories linked earlier in the thread - seems to start here:


			
				Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> ... I am of  the view that no member of the armed forces should be ordered under threat of court martial to undertake this sort of training. That is not consent ...


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## George Wallace (24 Apr 2017)

That is why I am asking Cloud Cover where they got this from.


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## Mike Bobbitt (24 Apr 2017)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I wonder how much we should be sharing about this subject on an open forum given that this is currently 'in play' in a legal context?



An excellent point, let's please steer clear of conjecture and bear in mind that the media may take any comments made here [out of context] and add fuel to the story.

I'm sure we are all sensitive to the possible outcomes and fair treatment for all involved.


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## Gunner98 (24 Apr 2017)

There is now a CAF training institution in Kingston dedicated to this: Canadian Forces Conduct after Capture Training Centre.

Open source: http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/peter-shawn-taylor-is-canada-ready-for-our-next-pow


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## Colin Parkinson (25 Apr 2017)

What rifle is he firing in the picture attached to the article? The GPMG I get.


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## George Wallace (25 Apr 2017)

Colin P said:
			
		

> What rifle is he firing in the picture attached to the article? The GPMG I get.



Is that not the old C3?


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## Loachman (25 Apr 2017)

Yes.

The Parker-Hale standard 7.62mm (and only) sniper rifle of the time.


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## Colin Parkinson (26 Apr 2017)

I recall the C3 having a different stock than that? Could have sworn it was more squarish, but time does funny things to memories.


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