# The Military is Inapropriate for Christmas Parade



## James101 (29 Nov 2006)

In my local newspaper in Orillia, ont. The Military has participated on our Christmas parade for the last couple of years. This year they brought a LAV and the OPP (Ontario Provincial Police) has a new Police Commissioner named Julian Fantino. He decided to ride in the LAV. People were disgusted to see a "Tank" in a christmas parade. This tank had support our troops banners on both sides. One Lady wrote to the newspaper and said " I thought the OPP Commissioner Julian Fantino riding in an army tank was inapropriate. What does an army tank have to do with Christmas anyway? Didn't he know it was peace week! "

I was appauld when I herd this. These are the guys who bring peace! And besides they were at the parade to bring the message to SUPPORT THE TROOPS. 

These people who get to see all these pretty floats and stand by thier family and then smash the military for being there. These men and women don't get to be with there familys and see nice pretty floats, They are in a country in which people are trying to kill them, and why? to help them and to keep the peace in our country so we can have these things like Christmas Parades. I just don't understand...

Here is the link http://www.orilliapacket.com/webapp/sitepages/content.asp?contentid=295524&catname=Letters&classif=


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## CrazyCanuck (29 Nov 2006)

You can start by telling this lady that a LAV isn't a tank, though i doupt she'll care...


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## Samsquanch (29 Nov 2006)

The grinch was dressed in military green as well. Maybe she has a problem with him as well. After all he stole Christmas...


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## James101 (29 Nov 2006)

Here is another link relating to this, a bigger story.

http://www.orilliapacket.com/webapp/sitepages/content.asp?contentid=295505&catname=Local%20News&classif=


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## Trinity (29 Nov 2006)

Can I be offended that there is no religion involved in a Christmas parade... since
Christmas is actually a religious holiday!?!

oh wait.. silly me.  It's about gifts and Santa...


It's a  LAV.. geez.


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## condor888000 (29 Nov 2006)

> Almost a dozen people have written to The Packet & Times complaining military hardware is inappropriate in a parade celebrating the Christmas season.



A DOZEN!!!!!  

HELP! The world is about to end because a dozen people are upset!!! 

 :


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## James101 (29 Nov 2006)

I know, that's not very many, and I shouldn't really be complaining about and just shrug it off. But people are supposed to go to a parade happy, not writting to the paper about what they want to see what not, and especially when we should be paying our respects to them.


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## Pte_Martin (29 Nov 2006)

I agree a dozen people isn't a lot but it's still a dumb thing to write in to the paper about, You could write in yourself and explain why you think it doesn't matter and it's only a Lav, and we should support the troops


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## aesop081 (29 Nov 2006)

condor888000 said:
			
		

> A DOZEN!!!!!
> 
> HELP! The world is about to end because a dozen people are upset!!!
> 
> :



Its the Canadian way........ :


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## condor888000 (29 Nov 2006)

True enough....


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## Stone (29 Nov 2006)

that is insane with out the armed forces we would not be able to celebrate christmas and the peace that we take for granted.  Besides the war doesn't stop for Christmas.


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## Edward Campbell (29 Nov 2006)

Christmas!?! *Bah! Humbug!*

But: The spelling in this thread is atrocious.  :rage:  For shame!  :tsktsk:


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## MPIKE (29 Nov 2006)

Well.. since this lady felt the need to go on the record..  My small town had a tinsel laden Septic Truck in its parade!  how christmas is that?? any other inappropriate examples?;D  :


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## James101 (29 Nov 2006)

Yes I am going to write back. 
 A little off topic but I have always hesitated to write to newspapers or talk about what I think is going on because yes I'm a little afraid of what people think. not people my age, (15) but because of adults. I mean in school all my teachers know my brother was hurt in Afghanistan, but some teachers like to add in a few comments to show that they either don't care or their telling me " I don't support what your brother was doing" I can't say to much because truly I don't know enough. They can bring up some random fact and I couldn't say anything to that. In school teachers influence kids a lot. ( Almost every teacher does not agree with Afghanistan) I want to shut down the teacher one day as I always try to have debates but lose. I thank you for the motivation, but my teachers are going to have something to say to it. To them Adults are always right, most of the time true when it comes to teenagers, but i think in this case I just don't know enough...
What I am going to do is learn off this forum and hopefully my debates will get stronger!


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## MOOXE (29 Nov 2006)

Stone said:
			
		

> that is insane with out the armed forces we would not be able to celebrate christmas and the peace that we take for granted.  Besides the war doesn't stop for Christmas.



An interesting thread. Stone that comment can apply to any essential service in Canada. OPP, RCMP, Firefighters, Laura Secord....... Its kind of an old and over used saying that people really dont put any weight into now. Its a cliche.

When I attented the Christmas Parade in Pembroke, an HLVW and a LAV were present. In the back of my mind I considered how appropriate it may or may not have been. As I stood there having my son wave at the guys, I sensed that some people may begin to think the Army doesnt belong on a Christmas parade. To me it just seemed a bit odd for a LAV to be on it. I would of rather seen the base Pipes & Drums. Much more exciting and wow-ness to it then a LAV decorated in red and green glowsticks.
_*
The parade is designed to represent all facets of the community, he explained, and with men and women from this area serving in Afghanistan, the community extends wherever the military is stationed.*_

Thats a pretty good point. Taken from the article James101 posted.

Besides using the old cliche, why should we be present on a Christmas Parade? Is the reason quoted above good? I think it is just for the reason quoted. Would anyone care to elaborate?


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## aesop081 (29 Nov 2006)

PIKER said:
			
		

> how christmas is that?? any other inappropriate examples?;D  :



Its snowing on Vancouver island for the third day in a row.......doesnt get more "un-christmas" than that


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## James101 (29 Nov 2006)

Sorry for the spelling, my internet keeps shuting off, so I'm typing fast and I'm not using spellcheck.


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## The Bread Guy (29 Nov 2006)

condor888000 said:
			
		

> Almost a dozen people have written to The Packet & Times complaining military hardware is inappropriate in a parade celebrating the Christmas season.
> 
> A DOZEN!!!!!
> 
> ...



Let's remember, too, that for every one letter to the editor written, there are probably a number (some say dozens, some say hundreds - I have no clue which is closest) of people who feel the same way, but didn't write.

That said, writing back is a VERY good idea - I'm thinking there's got to be more than just 12 readers/participants here at Army.ca that can write short, pithy, but factual and polite responses.

Here's some options:  the "Feedback" page canget something out there pretty quick....
http://www.orilliapacket.com/webapp/feedback/feedbackcontentadd.asp?catmainname=Feedback&catname=Post+Feedback

In fact, here's what's been posted so far:
http://www.orilliapacket.com/webapp/feedback/feedbackcontent.asp?catmainname=Feedback&catname=Read+Feedback

There's e-mail....
Main: news@orilliapacket.com
Editorial: newsroom@orilliapacket.com
(Most papers want you to put your full name, address and phone number in your letter - not for publication, but for verification - if you want any chance of having it published)

And for the more traditional, there's the old snail mail:
Orillia Packet & Times
ATTN:  Letters to the Editor
31 Colborne St. E.
Orillia
L3V 1T4
(Same caveat as above re:  name/address/phone)

Write soon, write often, and let us know what shows up!


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## a_majoor (29 Nov 2006)

James101 said:
			
		

> Yes I am going to write back.
> A little off topic but I have always hesitated to write to newspapers or talk about what I think is going on because yes I'm a little afraid of what people think. not people my age, (15) but because of adults. I mean in school all my teachers know my brother was hurt in Afghanistan, but some teachers like to add in a few comments to show that they either don't care or their telling me " I don't support what your brother was doing" I can't say to much because truly I don't know enough. They can bring up some random fact and I couldn't say anything to that. In school teachers influence kids a lot. ( Almost every teacher does not agree with Afghanistan) I want to shut down the teacher one day as I always try to have debates but lose. I thank you for the motivation, but my teachers are going to have something to say to it. To them Adults are always right, most of the time true when it comes to teenagers, but i think in this case I just don't know enough...
> What I am going to do is learn off this forum and hopefully my debates will get stronger!



James, these teachers are abusing their positions of power and trust in attacking you personally as a proxy for the government. As a 15 year old, you are really not in a position to challenge them (remind me to tell you what will be coming your way when you get to university), so sad as it seems, you may have to grow a thick skin and set them on ignore. Knowing facts and figures is seldom helpful in encounters with these people, the person who was nominated as the NDP candidate in my riding (London North Centre) did not know the Taliban stoned people to death for various minor infractions, nor did he care. (Neither did the person who eventually ran, a woman ironically, nor did NDP literature ever point out we are fighting a monsterous enemy).

*The only possible response to any person who suggests what we are doing is somehow wrong or inappropriate would be to ask if they support Human rights? Women's rights? Freedom of expression? Freedom of association? Gay rights?

When they respond in the affirmative then you can tell them your brother did too, which is why he went to Afghanistan; to help affirm and protect these rights for the Afghan people.*


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## andpro (30 Nov 2006)

cdnaviator said:
			
		

> Its snowing on Vancouver island for the third day in a row.......doesn't get more "un-Christmas" than that



It hasn't snowed yet here in Ottawa, I haven't been here all that long, but apparently it is pretty "un-Christmas" like. 

As for your teachers james101, what they are doing is very unprofessional, they should be encouraging their students to think critically so they can form their own opinion.  


			
				a_majoor said:
			
		

> James, these teachers are abusing their positions of power and trust in attacking you personally as a proxy for the government. *As a 15 year old, you are really not in a position to challenge them *


  

Why Not? School should be a place where students can express their opinion, this is how students develop critical thinking skills. I totally disagree with your statement, it's like saying you can't have a debate with someone who is older and has more education than you.


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## a_majoor (30 Nov 2006)

Andpro, while in a perfect world James has the power of right on his side, he is currently trapped in a situation where there is a blatent abuse of power going on. If he is to openly challenge his teachers under these conditions, what do you think will happen in terms of his marks, report cards and potential letters of reference?

I alluded to this somewhat with the remark about University, critical thinking is also* not *encouraged, and not too subtly according to many accounts (there are even threads in various Army.ca boards about this). If you are forced to write papers agreeing with the professor's "Marxist interpretation" of geography to get a passing grade, for example, you will either conform or risk loosing your acreditation (degree).

I gave James a suggestion of a relatively non confrontational means to defend himself, but he could still be accused of haveing a bad attitude or written up in a negative light because of this. I would not put it past some of these people to use phone interviews or personal meetings with University registrars offices to kill James chances without leaving a paper trail.


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## Trinity (30 Nov 2006)

+1 majoor


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## vonGarvin (30 Nov 2006)

I was at last year's parade in St John, NB.  Lots of pretty floats, candy and stuff for the kids.  Then there came along a white pick up.  No decorations.  Two guys walking behind.  I thought that maybe some frat boys got mixed up in the parade and were just trying to beat the traffic to the liquour store.  Then one of the fella's says, with a lisping voice, "Christmas is about love" or something like that.  That's when I realised that he and his partner were wearing rainbow coloured scarves.  My daughter asked me what they were, basically, "what's that all about?"  I just muttered something about "Those two fellas just wanted to say Merry Christmas to us, I guess".

Just looked like a square peg desitned for a round hole: didn't quite fit in.  Now, had that truck had lights, whistles and bells on it, well, that I could understand.


In other words: make an effort


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## ArmyRick (30 Nov 2006)

In James case, teachers in a public education system have one job, to TEACH, not PREACH. 

I have offered to help J.ames by writing a letter to his school's principal. If he accepts, I intend to write a well worded letter explaining about duty, honour, integrity and discipline (the four army ethoes) and the meaning of unlimited liability (AKA Soldiers prepared to scarifice themselves for the greater good).


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## geo (30 Nov 2006)

Well here goes.........
1.  The Cdn military is part of the community so YES it should participate in the community events - XMASS parade included.

2.  The use of a LAV or a LEO to me is somewhat inapropriate.  Would any self respecting CO / RSM even think of bringing their their troops with C7s into church for church parade? - don't think so

3. WRT the use of a LAV or a LEO:  Yeah they are the tools of our trade and we are who we are BUT, there are times when they should be left in the arms room / compound while we celebrate with the community.  There are better ways of being a good neighbour.


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## Zell_Dietrich (30 Nov 2006)

James101 said:
			
		

> In my local newspaper in Orillia, ont. The Military has participated on our Christmas parade for the last couple of years. This year they brought a LAV and the OPP (Ontario Provincial Police) has a new Police Commissioner named Julian Fantino. He decided to ride in the LAV. People were disgusted to see a "Tank" in a christmas parade. This tank had support our troops banners on both sides. One Lady wrote to the newspaper and said " I thought the OPP Commissioner Julian Fantino riding in an army tank was inapropriate. What does an army tank have to do with Christmas anyway? Didn't he know it was peace week! "



Never mind the tank, I always find Julian Fantino inappropriate.  If I was there and saw that I would be paralyzed between two conflicting emotions.  One to throw stuff and boo -  shouting a few choice insults, because it is him (If you lived DT Toronto you'd know... or if you've seen the movie Sin City - yea that bad) and the other to not in anyway to show disrespect to any float that carries the banner "support our troops".  It would be a tough call... I have a good arm,  if I could peg him off cleanly with my diet coke, with limited risk to the sign... well it would be situational call.  Any respect I ever had, or could have had, for McGuinty was forever shattered when he appointed Fantino to his new position.  Since these people didn't complain when the tank was there in the past,  ask yourself what is new; is it Fantino?  

On an aside, what is a "Marxist interpretation" of geography?  All the countries on the map are either Red for liberated or different shades of red?


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## Cloud Cover (30 Nov 2006)

Edward Campbell said:
			
		

> Christmas!?! *Bah! Humbug!*
> 
> But: The spelling in this thread is atrocious.  :rage:  For shame!  :tsktsk:



I am also appauld with that.


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## cplcaldwell (30 Nov 2006)

I've been struggling with this a bit. 

*geo, +1* you got what I wanted to say nailed.

(Besides I asked my wife last night and she said virtually the same thing  )


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## a_majoor (30 Nov 2006)

Zell_Dietrich said:
			
		

> On an aside, what is a "Marxist interpretation" of geography?  All the countries on the map are either Red for liberated or different shades of red?



Bizzare as it sounds, Zell, a friend of mine who is in the post graduate geography program in Western claims this is actually the case with several of his profs over the years. Since geography encompasses human agency in the use and modification of geological structures and formations, Marxists can lay claim to this area of study. (I would be very interested to see a Marxist interpretation of *Geology*, however  ).

Not having studied geology since high school, I can hardly even imagine what this entails (it was bad enough studying economics in college, although I did have one "Chicago School" prof who came from Western to teach our class to even things out), although I suspect a lot of it has to do with how undefinable "historical forces" influence the settlement of the land and its use. History "should" be an antidote to this sort of thinking, but of course History is often taught from this sort of perspective as well.


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## cplcaldwell (30 Nov 2006)

Oh and Zell, 

Marxist Geography, you need to read David Harvey, Social Justice and the City  and Limits to Capital.


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## niner domestic (30 Nov 2006)

It would be interesting to see how many of the children who attended the parade, have "tanks" and such listed on their letters to Santa.  Even more interesting would be to see the breakdown of "tank" like toy sales in the immediate area , who would have been ** spoiler - for those who still believe in Santa, stop reading** purchased by the adults.  I'd be also interested in seeing the shelves of the dept store in situ, to see if they contain displays of military like toys, and if evident, ask why are these same people complaining about the parade not complaining about the toy sections?


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## Zell_Dietrich (30 Nov 2006)

cplcaldwell said:
			
		

> Oh and Zell,
> 
> Marxist Geography, you need to read David Harvey, Social Justice and the City  and Limits to Capital.



Thank you,  if I see them I'll give them a read through.  I'm kinda swamped right now with finals coming up and as annoying as it sounds I have to read The cruel Sea and I can't speed read it.  In an inverted rhythm and odd voice the book I find the book.  It is a great read,  I just have to do it slowly. 

Now I thought that having a military presence at Christmas parades was traditional, especially in a time of war.  Being there for those who are away. But apart from the tank and the sign this had nothing to do with the military.  Were any of those letters saying the sign was inappropriate?  I want to believe that people up there also don't like Fantino, but I could just be cranky because I'm forming a new beret - a little to tight.

I know that there are people out there who, forwhatever reason, don't want us to be in Afghanistan and will voice opposition to anything they perceive as furthering the cause of us being there.  Annoying,  but it is true.  In my personal experience when a group has to take pot shots from the side,  not reveling themselves as an organised group,  it is usually a sign their position is so weak they can be ignored or mocked into submission.
(You just know the local NDPers/et al. had a little grassroots awareness campain, you just know it)


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## AJFitzpatrick (30 Nov 2006)

a_majoor said:
			
		

> Bizzare as it sounds, Zell, a friend of mine who is in the post graduate geography program in Western claims this is actually the case with several of his profs over the years. Since geography encompasses human agency in the use and modification of geological structures and formations, Marxists can lay claim to this area of study. (I would be very interested to see a Marxist interpretation of *Geology*, however  ).



Here you go http://www.marxist.com/science/dialecticsofgeology.html


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## a_majoor (30 Nov 2006)

AJFitzpatrick said:
			
		

> Here you go http://www.marxist.com/science/dialecticsofgeology.html



AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!


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## x-grunt (30 Nov 2006)

Coming back to the topic for a minute:
I saw nothing that suggests the Orillia paper was against the military in the parade. Sounds like they support the CF.

The few critical letters I read seemed to react to "the tank" not the CF involvement. So the thread title is somewhat misleading.

For the record I think the LAV is inappropriate for a Christmas parade and I'm _very_ pro-military. Seeing one rolling around with Santa and elves would be jarring to me too. _IMO It does not fit the message of Christmas._
Yes, there may be other inappropriate floats etc. at Xmas parades.  Let them catch all the bad publicity.

To be clear, I think having the military in the parade is wonderful and I heartily applaud it - let's have a band or two and maybe a "support our troops" float or troops handing out goodies to the kids, or some such. Let's leave anything resembling a weapon at the armoury for a more suitable venue.


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## Zell_Dietrich (30 Nov 2006)

I have to agree with you x-grunt,

But I still want to keep my anti-fantino rant out there.


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## 211RadOp (30 Nov 2006)

The last two, atleast, parades in Kingston have been lead by a Bison from 2 EW Sqn. Now of course Kingston has a much larger military presence than Orillia, but there has never been any kind of negative reaction that I have seen.


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## exgunnertdo (30 Nov 2006)

My former reserve unit (arty) has put an MLVW pulling a gun in the parade for the past several years.  Never heard any complaints, and it fell into our unit training plan as one of our "community footprint" activities.  Like any public activity we did, the kids and the veterans loved it!!  You can't please everyone.


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## zipperhead_cop (30 Nov 2006)

Okay, why is this getting so friggin complicated?   ???  Who do you think the parade is for?  
THE BLOODY KIDS!!
And kids love military stuff.  Having the LAV was probably great for them to see.  I am willing to bet if the whole parade consisted of snipers in Gillie suits, LAV's, LEO's and Tac helo flying overwatch the kids would have been stoked.  Hell, put Santa in a Bison and watch the kids swoon.  The only reason the parents are there is to take the kids to the parade.  It isn't for them.  

And Zell, what is your beef with Comm. Fantino?


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## MOOXE (30 Nov 2006)

_The only reason the parents are there is to take the kids to the parade.  It isn't for them.  _ 

Can you see whats wrong in this statement?


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## HItorMiss (30 Nov 2006)

uumm not thing, I only go to the Christmas parade to take my daughter.


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## zipperhead_cop (30 Nov 2006)

MOOXE said:
			
		

> _The only reason the parents are there is to take the kids to the parade.  It isn't for them.  _
> 
> Can you see whats wrong in this statement?



Santa is not going to bring you a pony.  Get over it.


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## vonGarvin (30 Nov 2006)

http://www.marxist.com/science/dialecticsofgeology.html

"It is no coincidence that the catastrophe theory of geology gained most ground in France, where the Great Revolution of 1789-94 had a decisive influence on the psychology of all classes, the echoes of which reverberated down the generations. For those inclined to forget, the revolutions of 1830, 1848, and 1870 provided a vivid reminder of Marx’s penetrating observation that France was a country where the class struggle is always fought to the finish. For Georges Cuvier, the celebrated French naturalist and geologist of the 19th century, the earth’s development is marked by a "a succession of brief periods of intense change and that each period marks a turning point in history. In between, there are long uneventful periods of stability. Like the French Revolution, after upheaval, everything is different. Likewise, geographical time is subdivided into distinct chapters, each with its own basic theme." 

Ummm...remind me what did the French Revolution(s) had to do with geology?


Talk about a hijack


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## Trinity (30 Nov 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Santa is not going to bring you a pony.  Get over it.



No.. but I think Des was trying to
(hint.. Hannah.. someone is giving your a "horsey")

I find clowns scary - I want them out of the parade
What do clowns have to do with Christmas?  Nothing.

Anyone can find anything offensive.  

Eventually we have to draw a line in saying... this is
what is acceptable without watering down the standards
so low that we have

Santa not being big because it insults people who are overweight
Santa not wearing red because people might be colour blind
No reindear because it's cruel to animals
No other floats because it wastes gas and hurts the environment
I could go on...  but you get my point

We need accommodate people in this world... of course we do.
To which depths do we choose to accommodate people? Not this far.
It's for the children and I'm sure the kids loved it.  Take the political
mumbo jumbo and shove it.


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## zipperhead_cop (30 Nov 2006)

Trinity said:
			
		

> I find clowns scary - I want them out of the parade
> What do clowns have to do with Christmas?  Nothing.



Oh, I totally agree.  Especially the creepy ones that walk on their hands and look at you from their crotches.  BRRRR!


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## Teflon (30 Nov 2006)

You mean Wally Walmart the clown isn't really part of historic Christmas lore?!?

 :crybaby:

And who is this Santa person you guys speak of? Sounds like a marketing gimick to me!

 ???


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## Harris (30 Nov 2006)

PIKER said:
			
		

> Well.. since this lady felt the need to go on the record..  My small town had a tinsel laden Septic Truck in its parade!  how christmas is that?? any other inappropriate examples?;D  :



Halifax is too Politically Correct to have a Christmas Parade.   Instead we had the Parade of Lights that Santa just happened to drop in on.


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## HitorMRS. (30 Nov 2006)

Trinity said:
			
		

> No.. but I think Des was trying to
> (hint.. Hannah.. someone is giving your a "horsey")



What's that now, she so does NOT need a pony for Christmas!!!  Nice try guys... you know who would end up taking care of it, and I'm not picking up pony poop.  Not a pooper scooper big enough for that job!

And back on topic, the Pembroke ON parade had military vehicles with a Support the Troops banner on it and I thought it was great!  There was actually a cheer and applause from the crowd when it rolled down the street in front of us.  The kids around us were very excited to see it.  
But then again we're talking about a town who pretty much is runs on the paycheques of the military members and their families.

And HitorMiss who are you kidding you were there for the free candy!


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## cplcaldwell (30 Nov 2006)

> And HitorMiss who are you kidding you were there for the free candy!



Dood you are like so busted!!!!


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## Harris (30 Nov 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Santa is not going to bring you a pony.  Get over it.



ROTFL  Seriously though.  I agree.  I wouldn't go to a parade unless it was to take my Daughter, or if I knew someone in it.


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## career_radio-checker (30 Nov 2006)

In a parade the common citizen only sees a pretty float with lights and tinsel decorations on them. What they don't see is that every float is sponsored by a group or an organization or heaven forbid, a corporation   that is taking the opportunity to advertise themself. And thus I can only see parades as another form of subliminal advertising that we are bombarded with every season, represented by the signs that read "Happy Hollidays and Merry Christmas from... (insert company name here)." We (the military) aren't any different than the other floats trying to appeal to the massed sheep crowds there to see a parade.

So what if the military has a 'float' in the parade. If you (the common citizen) are going to buy into any other corporation or organization to support their interests during the holidays (this includes food banks even though there is nothing wrong with that. They are just another organization) Why not support an organization that is trying to provide peace in other civilizations.

In short:
BAHUMBUG! hurry up and pay the cashier. Some of us want to get home from the mall before it starts snowing.


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## 1feral1 (30 Nov 2006)

Trinity said:
			
		

> Can I be offended that there is no religion involved in a Christmas parade... since
> Christmas is actually a religious holiday!?!
> 
> oh wait.. silly me.  It's about gifts and Santa...
> ...



+1 Padre!

Cheers,

Wes


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## Brad Sallows (30 Nov 2006)

Peace and security is in the eye of the beholder.  That's what I see when I see a Canadian fighting vehicle.


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## career_radio-checker (30 Nov 2006)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Peace and security is in the eye of the beholder.  That's what I see when I see a Canadian fighting vehicle.



Peace... through superior fire power  ;D


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