# Why Cadets are offensive?



## cameron_highlander

Gee-golly, great to hear something nice about cadets from some of you in other topics. Its just a shame cadets seems to be held in such low regard by some. So, I ask the more vocal folks who dont seem to like cadets to PLEASE tell us ‘little kids‘ what exactly you dont like about us and maybye what would increase your opinion of cadets. Or is what was said before just idle insults with no actual substance? I just find it offensive that some people seem to dislike cadets for no actual reason except for the ‘we‘re better then you‘ approach. SO, please give me an idea of what is so darn annoying about cadets.


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## D-n-A

seeing little kids wearing combats 3x their size, carrying BB guns scares me...


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## dano

I don‘t think it‘s the, "we‘re better then you approach" in most case‘s anyway.

It must be the "You‘re the Wannabe" approach.
But, hey... Regulars say the same thing to the Saturday night warriors.


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## D-n-A

Saturday Night Warriors? uh...

It‘s weekend warriors, an who parades on a saturday night? As far as I know, Reserve units parade thursday nights.


Anyways, some cadets come off as cocky, an wannabe GI Joes/Rambos, an some think there better than real soldiers an think they outrank us..


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## dano

Haha.. I was using my fathers 70‘s army reserve terminology.. Hah.


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## Yes Man

Its the universal flow of ****, you will learn about it in @sstrophysics.  Basically everyone gets **** and they pass it on to the next guy.  Regs to Reserves, Reserves to Cadets, Cadets to Civilians, and Civilians back to the Regs.  Its  a never ending cycle, it goes in one way comes out the other then makes its way back around again.


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## fleeingjam

I used to think cadets we all just cocky kids but come to think about thought full cadets like the one thats started this thread are the ones that are are future. If we discourage them we discourage just about all the public so for god sakes do Canada a favor and stop the cadet slaughter...like im sure many of these guys were probably in cadets before too in which case they shouldnt even be talking..any ways 2332 Piper good job askin people why and always keep hope.


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## Infanteer

Since you‘ve decided to throw your weight around Piper, I‘ll respond.

The reason I am not the biggest fan of the cadets is that I see the military as too vital of an institution to be dolled out as a youth program.

The role of any military force is to inflict violence on behalf of the state, a profession I take very seriously.  The fact that the Cadet movement doesn‘t see take this into account with its militaristic grounding to me indicates that it presents a farcical and inaccurate image of the military.

Not your fault, kids.  Just don‘t like the whole package.

What‘s wrong with the Boy Scouts and Girl Guides, anyways?


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## wongskc

I have to agree with Infanteer‘s assessment in that the cadet program of today is does very little to show kids what a military career can offer.  I suppose this has been the case since the 1960s when the war-fighting-training element was removed from the cadet mandate.  The air cadets were originally brought into being to begin training of aircrew who were still underage and most likely, still going to school so that we could send reinforcements into the fight quicker.  As for the army cadets, I‘ve seen archived photographs of them practicing platoon and company sized attacks circa 1911.  Now that it‘s just a glorified babysitting program, I think it‘s lost a lot of it‘s appeal and use.

I remember cleaning out my squadron‘s LHQ a long time ago and coming across training material left over from the 1970s when there used to be an MP course for us kiddies.  All the senior cadets we really bitter that we don‘t have anything like that anymore.


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## cdhoult

I don‘t really agree that cadets has lost its appeal and use. 

What are the aims of the movement again? I think we meet them fairly well. One of the aims is to STIMULATE an interest in the forces, and many of you seem to want to be in the forces, so cadets has done something (If nothing else, cut some time off your first incentive pay)

It‘s only a babysitting program if you, as a senior cadet, allow it to be one. If you think a cadet is there and not acting like a cadet, call them on it. If they say, "My parents make me come" then tell them that either they need to talk to their parents, or get the officers to. Because there is no point in someone being there if they don‘t want to.

If someone ‘wants‘ to be there, but isn‘t acting like a cadet, again, call them on it. Sometimes it‘s all that‘s needed. 

It‘s use is still there. My unit, and all the units I‘ve been a part of, continue to produce amazing citizens, and great leaders. Maybe they can‘t fire a C-7 at the age of 14, but does that really matter?

16? Want to join the military? Go join the reservers. You don‘t need to turn cadets into it. We have our roots in the forces to an extent, but the curreny purpose, beyond stimulating an interest, isn‘t that military related. So stop trying to make it that.

CH


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## 1feral1

My view of cadets, in Canada and Australia. 

First off, my Army Unit sponsors the Australian School Cadet (Army) 233 RCU (Regional Cadet Unit)located out of Kogarah, Sydney.

They get much assistance thru our Q Store, and we often help them out. Even their drill is better than ours!

This RCU is very good, with great attendance, bringing 13-18yr old young ‘potential‘ soldiers for the Army.

It keeps them busy, out of trouble, and gives them something to look forward to on Friday nights, when they parade.

Here, youth are taught personal discipline, leadership, national pride, and team work. They do community service, and volunteer for many things. 

They go on their camps, where they are taught feidcraft, Australian survival subjects, and other typical cadet lessons, etc.

233 RCU had sent a contingent to Gallipoli in 2002 to see where the our first ANZACs fought, and gave birth to the legend.

I have respect for ther cadre staff, and them in whole. We even take some out bush with us from time to time, putting them on the gun line, and they endure daily life with the Gunners.

I have a lot of time for them, and I know they do get in the way at times, but they are worth the effort.

As for the RCACC back in Canada, I remember so well the old battledress of 2350 RCACC (10 Fd), and the 155 RRR RCACC, back at the Regina Armouries, and the Militia soldiers it bred, followed by many making life long careers in the CF regular force. 

Like any organisation, they have their ‘loosers and theives‘ but I know many of the same here in the Army, and back in the CF, who were nothing but a waste of rat packs too. So you‘ll find sub-calibre people anywhere you go, but overall from what I have seen and experienced, they were okay. 

So, give the Cadet movement a break, the are worth the investment.

BTW, I never was in the Cadets.

Cheers,

Wes


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## Excolis

remember the chain.    most cadets that are interested join the reserves, then join reg....if there was more support from the reservists towards the cadets, maybe the recruiting numbers would be higher...  cadets are not stupid people,  they are acctually very smart.  and by the reserves always looking down on the cadets, it turns them away....  a bad attitute gets no one anywhere.


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## Jarnhamar

Gee golly, remind me to not let my kids anywhere near boy scouts


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## Pikache

Unfortunately my few experiences with cadets isn‘t very positive.

Those who I‘ve came contact with seemed way too immature, even taking into account that they are just teens. Talked to few of them one time and they were way out of it.

Now I know they don‘t represent the cadets as whole and some of the best troops in my unit had cadet experience, but I can only comment on what I‘ve seen.


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## Excolis

very true..  there is always good and bad.... but from where i am, it is mostly good....


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## shaunlin41

I think that the problem is not the cadets themselves but the people in charge of them.
What I mean is that the cadet program is too slakass with little in the way of structure and disipline. An example of this is the other day I was paintballing and there were four cadets wearing thier cadpats, combat boots, the full works.  This to me is horrible were they not taught to respect the uniform?. p.s how the **** did they get cadpats?  anyways, when I did my reg basic the former cadets were some of the worse recruits because of the "bad habits" they picked up and the lazy ways combined with the cocky attitude that accompanied them.  They had a hard time getting alone with the rest of the platoon. So I think we must look at the people involved and ask why the cadets are this way and what can be changed to better the program and the future soldiers.  Of course this is a generalization of cadets and does not apply to all.


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## chrisf

> Originally posted by 2332Piper:
> [qb] Thanks for the responses, I just was curious reading the other posts from other forums. Just a comment directed at Infanteer (sorry if its spelled wrong, just remember we aren‘t meant to be mini-soldiers anymore. Cadets provides a environment in which you can learn many valuable lessons etc for the rest of your life and some other neat stuff too, in a military-like atmosphere so those of us who want to join up to do the real thing can get a little taste without the binding commitment of the reserves
> (because at 16 we all know that theres already alot to do). And I used to be in boy scouts, trust me, the difference is HUGE and cadets is a much better atmosphere the provided by boy scouts. [/qb]


The binding commitment of the reserves? Wasn‘t aware there was any sort of binding comittment... if you‘re not happy, you leave.

On the subject of boy scouts, I was a scout, I rather enjoyed it, learned plenty, and didn‘t pick up any bad habits. Not to say that all cadets pick up bad habits, but as several other people also mentioned, some of the worst recruits are ex-cadets (And some of the best recruits, but it‘s a mix).


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## GrahamD

> It‘s use is still there. My unit, and all the units I‘ve been a part of, continue to produce amazing citizens, and great leaders. Maybe they can‘t fire a C-7 at the age of 14, but does that really matter?


When I was in sea cadets in the early 90‘s, they used to take us to the shooting range for a day every couple of months or so.  I don‘t recall what model of rifle it was, but they looked like they were at least 50-60 years old.  I was 13 and 14 while I was a cadet.
I quit only because I had to travel 1.5 hours each way to attend our wednesday night meetings.

Perhaps because my cadets program was run in CFB Masset, and about 90% of the participants were military brats, it seemed VERY military oriented.

I was under the impression that it wasn‘t geared so much to spark and interest, but rather to help develop military bearing in induviduals who were already interested in making the transition to the CAF.


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## bagpiper

There are alot of people saying that they don‘t like cadets because they seem immature and what not, I know for a fact this is true but I am guessing that there are most likely some immature people in the reserves and in reg force. Just because there are a few stupid people in cadets doesn‘t mean we are all stupid. I know I am not only speaking for myself when I say that I try my best in my cadet training because I want a career in the military and I am still to young for reserves yet, but when I am old enough and qualified (next year) I will be joining. Cadets also offers todays youth a chance to develop many skills they need now and that they will need later in life. I would have a hard time listing all the valuble skills I have learned in cadets even in my short period of time being one. I know there are many flaws in the cadet system but you can‘t balme them all on the cadets themselves. Remember there are many flaws in any organization. Please don‘t judge the people in cadets badly because of a few bad apples and a flawed system.


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## Slumsofsackville

I learned more about survival in boy scouts, then cadets. I like Boy scouts better then cadets.


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## 1feral1

Good attitude mate!

There is more to Cadets than ‘survival and camping‘. Its about character building, confidence building, respect, disicpline, national pride, and leadership training.

It gives underprivillaged kids a chance to participate in a range of activities, and steers them from hopefully the wrong crowd.

I am sure the RCACC has saved many kids from turning bad. Its kept them in school, and given them great oppertunites overall.

However, life is what you make it too. Cadets only get what their Cadre staff and CIL have to offer.  

Its an avenue for more potential recruits into the CF system. 

This is coming from a person who never was in the cadets at all, but did a 1 yr ‘tour‘ in the Boy Scouts (1970). I did not learn much there. One 2 day summer camp, thats about it. 

Cheers,

Wes


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## Gryphon

Okay.. why don‘t i like cadets?

Well firstly, i have to say that it‘s not that i hate all of them, i just dislike the image that they portray.. 

secondly, my experience with cadets in Garrison is that they think that the rank that they get holds fast... I‘ve had cadet sgts tell me what to do, holler at me when i kindly reminded them that they were only Cadets, try to make me do push ups when i laughed at his machoism, and then try to report me... that‘s the one reason that i don‘t really get along with cadets.

thirldy, some of the ex-cadets that were on my BMQ had the "I‘m better then you" air around them. they felt that they didn‘t need to do any of this because they already knew it all..


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## 1feral1

Come on Gryph, thats a pi_$$ weak attitude, and judging by your post, it tells me you have little tolorance, and not much time in. Let your maturity work for you, not against.

How would you deal on a tour somewhere? Think about what you have said!

There will always be ill feelings between cadet and army (its competiton in a sense. Call it esprit du corps if you wish), as there is here even between corps, etc. Reg/ Res too. I have met soldiers from both, who are good and bad. Its everywhere in every job

So you think Cdn youth  wearing Cadet uniforms selling poppies for 11 Nov is a bad image?

Where are you coming from?

Crikey, they are just kids. Feeling their independance for the first time for many. Bad should mean in need of a hair cut or an iron. However if properly looked after by  proper leadership, this would not be a problem.

As for cadets who move on to the Army, sure some might have a attitude, but many keep their mouths shut, and use their expereince as a useful tool for themselves, and others. It called maturity, and discipline.

I think you see a small minority, who unfortunatly are seen and observed by their attitudes, and arogant ways.

Cheers,

Wes


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## Franko

Sounds to me like some people are losing perspective here. They are kids, didn‘t swear an oath like we all did to defend Canada. They are emulating what they want to be...

Immatation is the finest form of flattery   

Regards


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## 1feral1

Well said Franko!

Cheers,

Wes


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## sgt_mandal

Just out of curiosity, how different is the drill in the reserves and the reg‘s?


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## Slumsofsackville

I do agree it keeps them off the street, But at work, most of them bring the street to cadets. Even In ther Parade unifourm, they still wear sneakers, hats, doraggs. Not fully turned out.  

Most got the im better then you, or the powertrip. I sit in my mess, THAT I pay to use, in my civis waiting for the substores to open, and 1/2 the time some Cadet CSM starts yelling at me to get out. 

I nevered had or seen that problem when i was in.


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## clasper

> Originally posted by sgt_mandal:
> [qb] Just out of curiosity, how different is the drill in the reserves and the reg‘s? [/qb]


Cadets are more likely to engage in monkey drill, but when they go by the book (which is most of the time), it‘s the same book.  That‘s not an expression- they use the exact same drill manual as reg and reserve forces.  I was on a cadet drill team that made up some pretty interesting movements though...


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## The_Falcon

The difference in drill, I would imagine that regs tend to have the best as they have more time on their hands. It varies in the reserves from unit to unit, and wether or not there is parade or something comeing up. Cadets? Most of the cadets I have seen have piss poor drill, but that is more the result of having people teach them drill, who never learned how to do it right in the first place, and it is just a loop.  But to be fair I have seen some Reservists who bear march like champs.

P.S. It is a pet peeve of mine but "Boy" Scouts has not existed for quite some time.  The official name has been just Scouts since about 92, when they started going Co-ed.


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## cdhoult

I never let a cadet on our Drill Deck if they were wearing an improper uniform..."I forgot my boots" isn‘t a good excuse, at least not as far as I‘m concerned. They can parade when they look like a cadet.

I had an interesting time last night...I was teaching rifle drill to some cadets, and some guy was like, "No, at the final movement, the left hand should just be flat against the rifle, along with the forearm.....that‘s the way we‘ve always done it"....safe to say, that is now past tense   

CH


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## CL84

I don‘t know, I think Cadet‘s is good for younger kids but bad for some. I think once they start getting stripes on their arm their head swells and they become so in love with themselves. It should build confidence and give interest in the forces I agree, but I have met a cadet that came up to me because he had sgt stripes on and demanded I call him sgt. I‘m in the reserves by the way going reg force in May. I laughed at him, he ran to tell an officer...who was a cadet, and I had to stand at attention while being reemed at by a cadet officer..Apparently I have to salute and respect cadets. 

That‘ kind of thing isn‘t called for in my eyes. I know reserves don‘t do much compared to regs, but compared to cadets?> I don‘t feel as though the cadets have done anything at all by comparison. It should just be like a little club with friends and stay at that, teach discipline etc. I also find no use in it because well that‘s all they do. They play soldier and that‘s it. That‘s why I‘m going reg. Nothing wrong with reserves but cadets in my oppinion is bs. Waste of space. I really wish we were allowed to punch some of them in the face actually, half of them deserve it. 

This one guy that was in my bmq with me was a WO in his cadet thing, also in the reserves. He was 18. I seen him with his cadets the one day, and he was yellin and screaming at them like we had done to us, nonsense. Complete nonsense. 

Throw a buncha cadets in the field for a few days in the rain, with an 80lb ruck on their back eating nothing but IMP‘s....ha! Til they do just that, I‘ll never respect them. Again, waste of space. In my oppinion of course...


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## KeV

Well there‘s a big difference that will allways stay there. When you join the Cadets, it‘s to have fun and learn cool stuff, that‘s what all teens like. It‘s pretty much to have fun so things are a little less serious. When you join the reserves, it‘s serious. You go there because you want to. Not to have fun. Some teens are serious and that‘s the kind we need. But have all mature teens is pretty much impossible. 

But there are bad sides and good sides about Cadets. The one I really like is that it gives them something to do and keeps them off the streets.

When you are in the reserves, it serious, you don‘t have a choice. But Cadets is pretty much babysitting but I don‘t think it‘s a bad thing.


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## cdhoult

Everyone is entitled to their opinion...

Should you call a C/Sgt a Sgt? Yes. In their organization, that‘s what they are. I haven‘t been referred to by just my last name for a long time, and I seldom answer officers who just call me by my last name.

However, I suppose you are correct. You are under no obligation to call them a Sgt...but they are under no obligation to call you anything either. Mutual respect there.

Funny thing about Cadet Officers....they actually ARE part of the Canadian Forces, and hold a REAL commission....ergo, yes, you DO have to salute them. They are a sub unit of the Reserves. Funny thing ain‘t it. 

Some cadets go out into the field for a few days, rain or shine, and eat IMP‘s. Even on weekends when we are actually in some barracks, we usually eat IMP‘s to save costs.

You‘re comparring apples to oranges with the Reserves to Cadets thing....Reserves are part of the CF. Cadets isn‘t an actual branch (even though our officers are). It is a youth organization...it‘s not supposed to be anything more.

I‘m not even sure about that WO comment....OK, so a C/WO was on your BMQ...and you saw him treating his cadets like you were being treated by your Reg/Reserve WO?.....and your point is? They do mirror the forces structure, ergo, the responsability that a Reg/Reserves WO has, the C/WO has a lower scale, but as a whole holds the same ‘position‘ and commands the same respect from his ‘troops‘ in his unit. It doesn‘t transfer over to the Reg Force/Reserves.

So no, he didn‘t tell his officer who was a cadet, he told his officer who was, well, an officer. 

I know some Reg/Reserve people out here refused to salute CIC Officers...they ended up infront of the Base Chief or the Admiral for doing so.

CH


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## Gibson

A CIC Officer should know enough to tell that cadet he doesn‘t have rank on anyone but cadets.

I was in Air Cadets so I can‘t say much for the Army side but I found it to be very practical.  I think there is less of the wannabes as Air Cadets doesn‘t have much of the military side outside of range, drill, and the structure.  It‘s a great program for developing youth and leadership.  For a youth program it really is second to none.


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## D-n-A

> Originally posted by 3005_MWO:
> [qb]
> 
> Funny thing about Cadet Officers....they actually ARE part of the Canadian Forces, and hold a REAL commission....ergo, yes, you DO have to salute them. They are a sub unit of the Reserves. Funny thing ain‘t it. [/qb]


From what I‘ve been told, Reservist an Reg Force dont have to salute CICS, except if they hold the rank or Major or LCol?  

An yes, technically CICs are a subunit in the reserve, but they dont have any of the same standards or training.


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## Cpl. Williamson

In general i have Great respect For the Qualities Cadets Instills In The Youth of Today its Better they Go and Do Something then Steal Rape And Pillage

My only Distain Comes From a MWO Cadet Who Happened To Attend Our Change of Command Parade.. Apparently Our Marching wasnt As Good as It should Have Been and He Made a Rather Nice Comment About it 

A Fellow Sapper Set him right


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## FlightSergeantRose

The Cadet program is an investment in the future  of our country. I was in for 7 years and can easily say that the cadet program made me a much better person then I would have been and there are thousands of others that would say the same. 

Cadets use the same drill manual as regs and from my experiences, my aircadet squadrons drill is 10 times better then the reserve unit that I am in right now.

Bottom line is the cadet program is worth the money and anyone who says otherwise either was never a cadet ( in which case they have no idea what it is like to be in the program ) or they had bad leadership in their units.


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## CL84

lol...ergo...ergo...ergo. That‘s all I gotta say. Oh ya, and comparing apples to oranges? Or cadets to soldiers? I think that‘s what I was doing there actually. The only thing good about cadets, is it keeps kids busy off the streets, out of drugs...no wait a second, I ran into a few kids smoking a joint who were wearing cadet uniforms! So ‘ergo‘ cadets are still, useless. Like I said all powerful super cadet man, spend your time with a 80lb ruck on, hikin with that for 18 hours, then tell me what the difference between cadets and reserves is...and really, how useless the organization is. Sorry..I just really can‘t like the cadets. No offence to the good ones who don‘t power trip.   :dontpanic:


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## bossi

I‘m negative on the cadet movement because of all the things I‘ve seen over the past 27 years.

At times it seemed to me that all they learned was how to swear and smoke.

Most CIL officers I met were losers - living their second childhood vicariously through their cadets (that is, when they weren‘t sexually molesting them ...)

Prior to 1981 the CIL offrs weren‘t part of the PRes - however, that came to a screeching halt due to an incident to which I was an eye witness: One day, I was going back to quarters in order to go for my lunchtime run when I noticed my friend‘s Porsche with a broken window.  Sitting in the driver‘s seat was ... a CIL officer, babbling something about the moon ... (?)  Anyway, it turned out CIL offrs fell between the cracks when it came to QR&O‘s (!)  So, they became part of the Reserve mainly so they could face charges (and, as it turns out, quite a few of them face charges for sexual assault and other not so nice things ...).

Then there was the CIL officer who mentioned to me one day that he wasn‘t sure about something ... it turned out he was contemplating deflowering a young female air cadet who thought he was ‘big man on campus‘ because he flew the glider tug in Borden ... (sheeyah - what wonderful ‘leadership‘ he was exhibiting ...)

Perhaps cadets was a better organisation at some point in the past, and perhaps there are good cadet corps out there - unfortunately, I haven‘t seen enough of them.


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## CL84

*high fives bossi*


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## dano

Rules are in place to be followed.
Regardless of how you feel.


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## FlightSergeantRose

". . .spend your time with a 80lb ruck on, hikin with that for 18 hours, then tell me what the difference between cadets and reserves is...and really, how useless the organization is."

That makes no sense what-so-ever. . . 12 year old kids can‘t go marching with an 80lb ruck so the cadet organization is useless? Why would cadets be marching around with 80lb ruck? 

It is not the military, it is a youth program that dabs very slightly into the military when it comes to some training and courses. I think some of you people are forgetting that. The amount of funds that go to this program would do little to help the military


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## CL84

ergo ergo ergo


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## CL84

ya you are right goodbird,    I made a mistake, I really don‘t like cadets just because of experiences with them I guess, and ya it doesn‘t make sense for them to ruck it with 80lbs. Just a chance for them to taste military life and structure, in the process, building a better youth. Thats what the cadets ‘should‘ do to kids.
Ah well, everywhere you go there will be the bad ones, sorry I wasted my breath, ergo wasting peoples time, ergo wasting bandwith, ergo my ergo‘d ergo.


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## GrahamD

So my question is, if you have to salute a cadet officer because he is affiliated with the military, do you have to salute the ranger officers?

Plus I‘d like to add, I don‘t see the big deal in saluting a cadet officer "if" he holds an actual commision.  Officers in the CAF are saluted, end of story.
  However, being commanded by a cadet to adress them according to their rank is ludicrous.
Whats worse though is feeling like you want to punch them in the face.  They‘re just kids after all, and a well placed remark about how its "cute" that they think you owe them respect, and that they should run off with their little friends to "play guns" will do far more damage to their inflated sense of entitlement than you probably think.  Especially when you laugh off their attempts at confrontation or rebuttal and walk away, leaving them feeling furious and powerless to do anything about it.
Belittlement is the best revenge for a teenager, it has the most profound impact, and costs you the least amount of backlash.

It would be a cold day in **** before I would humble myself to a cadet during the course of serving my country.  If anything I would take his name and information and just wait for the day he enlisted into the regs.  I‘d be sure to put in a good word for him to his instuctors at St.Jean.


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## Slumsofsackville

I was evil in Cadets, Play pranks and Was pure EVIL, Chaped 3 times only 2 years in. Once I joinned Reserves I dropped the Cadets thing. Found out it‘s only fuel for the fire and your treated 3X worst then others. All it was good for was killin time. I had to Drop what ever I lernt... so,  why did I join. Only thing I used from cadets were my boots, Since I had a Good polish.


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## cdhoult

> Originally posted by CL84:
> [qb] lol...ergo...ergo...ergo. That‘s all I gotta say. Oh ya, and comparing apples to oranges? Or cadets to soldiers? I think that‘s what I was doing there actually. The only thing good about cadets, is it keeps kids busy off the streets, out of drugs...no wait a second, I ran into a few kids smoking a joint who were wearing cadet uniforms! So ‘ergo‘ cadets are still, useless. Like I said all powerful super cadet man, spend your time with a 80lb ruck on, hikin with that for 18 hours, then tell me what the difference between cadets and reserves is...and really, how useless the organization is. Sorry..I just really can‘t like the cadets. No offence to the good ones who don‘t power trip.    :dontpanic:  [/qb]


Yes, you are comparing soldiers to cadets. Cadets aren‘t MEANT to be soldiers. Youth Organization. They aren‘t there to protect our country, they aren‘t there to go to war, or perform duties for the CF. At all. So by saying that cadets are far different from the reserves, well, you‘re correct. They aren‘t MEANT to be.

Any Cadet who is caught smoking drugs are removed from the program (or should be). I‘m not going to defend them, they shouldn‘t be doing it. It‘s not like we all fall in and light up together.

I have met some officers who are trying to relive the program....and it really is a sad thing. There are some out there (usually older ones, hence reliving their childhood), but a lot of CIC Officers are young ex-cadets, or parents who got involved to save little Jimmy‘s corps (Ma & Pa Corps). Sadly, the average life span of a CIC Officer is 4 years. Many leave the program due to other commitments, and then the old let‘s-relive-out-childhood officers are sometimes the only ones left.

The Program, like anything, isn‘t perfect.

Oh, and as for the ‘super cadet man comment‘, how old are we? Aren‘t you 20? Shouldn‘t you be researching your answers? We‘ve all had negative experiences with cadets and members of the reg force/reserved. But actually research the program and realize that not everyone sucks.

Mutual respect for the cadets is a great place to start. We have Reg Force members volunteer at our unit, as well as members of the Reserve. One I have the highest respect for. She‘s around 58 or so (She‘s past the age for the PRes, and is actually parading with the cadet unit with special permission, retaining her rank), was a Reserve member for 30 years, is a Member of Military Merit, and is just great to work with. She doesn‘t call me ‘Hoult‘, and quite frankly, if most people did, I wouldn‘t respect. Regardless of what in your eyes a may or may not be, in that organization, and while I wear that uniform, I‘m a Cadet MWO, whether you agree with it or not. And as I say, although you are under no obligation to call me a MWO, I‘m under no obligation to refer to you as Recruit, or whatever your rank is at the moment.

You and I both know that 12 year olds are influential. If the 12 year old sees that you aren‘t calling him Sgt, then why should the 12 year old? 

I‘m not saying you must listen to the Sgt, you shouldn‘t be (clearly), theyy have no authprity over you, and likewise, unless volunteering at the cadet unit, you have none over them.

It all starts with mutual respect, and as a member of the reserve, try leading by example to the cadets. Laughing at a cadets face for asking to be called by their rank, well, what a great example you are setting for them.



> Originally posted by CL84:
> [qb]Just a chance for them to taste military life and structure, in the process, building a better youth.[/qb]


What part of military life should they experience? The food? The inspections on their rooms? Drill? Respect? I‘m not entirely sure what more you would do for the program....They learn the rank structure, they go to camp, do their courses, sleep in bunks that are inspected daily with a ruler, checked for dustand all that other good stuff, learn to shine their boots (although some really, really don‘t know how....and that‘s sad), Get up at 0600 for PT, eat the military food, fall in for parades (and are constantly evaluated on drill/uniform), and go about their way and do their courses.

Many cadets who retire after a full ‘career‘ in the program are leaps/bounds ahead of the average 19 year old, with more confidence, organization, time management skills, etc.

Yes the program is designed to ‘spark an interest‘, but if Bloggins doesn‘t go onto the forces, he‘s still benefited from the program.

They don‘t go on a forced march, or play night/day. What would it do for them? Cadets are also there to have a good time.



> Originally posted by GrahamD:
> [qb]
> So my question is, if you have to salute a cadet officer because he is affiliated with the military, do you have to salute the ranger officers?[/qb]


Cadet Officers aren‘t affiliated with the Military, they are PART of the military. Members of the CIC Branch, and yes, hold real commissions. 



> Originally posted by d-N-a:
> [qb]
> From what I‘ve been told, Reservist an Reg Force dont have to salute CICS, except if they hold the rank or Major or LCol?
> 
> An yes, technically CICs are a subunit in the reserve, but they dont have any of the same standards or training[/qb]


They do have to salute members of the CIC, as they hold the exact same commission as those in the reg force or the reserves. NCM‘s/Junior officers can and have ended up infront of the Admiral or Base Chief being Court Martials for not saluting a CIC Officer. 

The most amusing part about the whole Trg/Standards for CIC Officers is that Reg Force Officers are in charge of that part. 

Director of Cadets, Col Perron, is Reg Force. As are the RCO‘s (save Pac Region, currently they are short, so an ex-Reg Force Cdr is currently holding the position....he‘s older than 55, so he‘s parading as a CIC Officer). Even the ACO‘s are Captains, and the ACA‘s are Reg Force NCM‘s (usually Sgt/WO‘s).....they have a LOT to do with training and standards of units. So if a unit has icnredibly low standards, and their officers are crap, it‘s up to the ACO and ACA‘s to DO something about it. If they don‘t do their jobs, well....you‘ve seen what happens. DCdt‘s, RCO, ACO, ACA....ALL Reg Force postings. So if they do their jobs properly, things should be good. Sadly, many do not. That isn‘t a problem with lack of CIC Training, apparently it‘s a lack of training or initiative on the part of the Reg Force Officers involved....I‘m happy to say most that I‘ve met are of incredibly high calibur, and keep corps at a high standard.



> Originally posted by Spr. Williamson:
> [qb]
> Apparently Our Marching wasnt As Good as It should Have Been and He Made a Rather Nice Comment About it
> [/qb]


The Cadet was out of line, hopefully they won‘t do something like that again. 

Not all cadets are perfect, nor are all units perfect.

But those who just moan an complain aren‘t really doing anything about, especially those who were never involved with the program, and are incredibly uninformed. 

If you think you can do a better job, than put your money where your mouth is. Go volunteer at the unit, I‘ve seldom heard of a cadet unit turning down a Reg Force/Reserves Volunteer. 

While you are there though, be prepared to call the cadets by their rank, salute the officers (which of course, you would do anyway), and listen to the officers above you. Most Reg FOrce members are given a lot of latitude. The WO I mentioned above was a Clerk I believe, or something to that effect, and she is the AdminO, and does a very good job, so no one is micromanaging her. But if you cause problems, or moan the whole time, well, be prepared for not a fun stint.

Go make a difference in a corps, especially those who are complaining with no experience in the program.

CH


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## Da_man

one thing you should not forget is that ANYONE can join the cadets.
Remove the drill, and what do you have left that is "military" ?

anyway... i used to be a cadet and what i really hate was the fact that they gave promotions not to those who can take responsabilities, but to those who have the best looking boots.


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## Da_man

> Originally posted by 3005_MWO:
> [qb]
> 
> Funny thing about Cadet Officers....they actually ARE part of the Canadian Forces, and hold a REAL commission....ergo, yes, you DO have to salute them. They are a sub unit of the Reserves. Funny thing ain‘t it.
> 
> CH [/qb]


cadets ARE NOT part of the CF.  they are paramilitary.
They are not even sworn in, who could they be part of the CF?


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## Infanteer

This whole thread has gone from zero to stupid pretty quick....


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## Harris

Infanteer I agree %100.

Therefore I am going to lock this thread so we can move on.

First a message from our sponsers though:

Everyone, lets be clear on this point as it seems there is a lot of confusion out there.

ALL Officers that you see in Canada (ie. Wearing Gold or Green braid on their Slip-ons or cuffs) are Comissioned Officers and therefore are due the proper respect for their Comission (Not necessarly the Officer themselves, as we know that is earned)

The lone exception to this are OCdts.  Depending on Unit tradition thay may or may not be saluted by Jr Ranks as they do not yet hold the Queen‘s comission.

That means that if you are of a lower rank and in the Reserves or Regular Force you "must" salute them and otherwise treat them with the actions and respects due any Officer.

There are no longer any Cadet Officers (I used to be a Cadet Captain before Cadet Officer ranks were removed).  However CIC, Reserve, and Regular Force Officers are all the same in the eyes of QR&O‘s and you will get into trouble if you decide not to recognize that fact.

Cadet NCO‘s on the other hand have no actual command authority over anyone and conversely have no responsibility to respond to non CIC officers (some would say they don‘t have to respond to anyone).  Hoever common courtesy dictates that if you have dealings with Cadets, you should call them by their rank, and that they call you by your rank.  It doesn‘t mean that they command you somehow if you are of a lower rank, but it is similar to how Foreign Officers are treated, I salute foreign Majors and above not necessarly beause I have to, but because I should.  And in turn I don‘t expect foreign Lt‘s and below to salute me, but to date %100 have when I‘ve delt with them.  It is professional courtiesy.

I wish I could see more of that here on the Forums.

I shall now get of the soap box.

If you want to continue this topic please feel free to start a new thread.


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## sgt_mandal

I just wanted to add something to everyone who said they saw cadets smoking or drinking.

I‘m almost positive that you knew that smoking underage is illegal. Also as you are fine examples, yourselves, of soldiers in the Candian Forces, why didn‘t any of you stop them or try to do anything about it? Espiecilly if you DID catch them in uniform?

As a good citizen, I would at least tried to do something about that.


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## corporal-cam

1) Never seen a cadet drinking (in uniform)
2) Smoking underage is legal here in Manitoba
3) I do neither, don‘t lump me in with the bad apples
4) The Forces aren‘t angels either (eg. Somalia)
5) Have a nice day.


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## L/MCpl_Argyll_ Kurrgan

You had to bring up Somalia eh.  Nice.


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## dano

I was thinking the same thing.


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## sgt_mandal

corporal-cam,

If you read my post correctly, i was not reffering to you at all. I was directing my question to the people who have.


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## CL84

Funny, walk up to a cadet smoking or drinking and let them know what you think of that, and that they shouldn‘t be doing it, they‘ll spit at you, tell you to f-off or start a fight with you ‘because they are wearing the uniform.‘ I‘m pretty sure that‘s what would happen.


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## cdhoult

CATO 13-23

21. Regardless of age or provincial legislation,
cadets including staff cadets are prohibited from
purchasing alcohol, being under the influence of
alcohol, consuming alcohol or having alcohol in
their possession while engaged in cadet
activities.

So the question of, "Are they engaged in a cadet activitity before/after cadets" comes into play...in my opinion, if they are in uniform, well, make sure you‘re going an appropriate representation.

As for smoking, I know there is a PRCI on it, that bans smoking by cadets in Pacific Region, and I‘m fairly certain the CATO is updated as well, but there isn‘t a recent copy online. I‘ll let you nkow if I can get ahold of an updated copy.

CH


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## Thompson_JM

Im thinking why are we still on this?

Why keep pouring Gas onto the fire?

we all have different veiwpoints and im pretty sure they arnt going to change overnight, therefore, this subject is going to be alot of controversial argueing back and forth..

Why not just drop it guys?


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## CL84

Ya, I agree. No matter what you do with all the rules and conduct to follow for cadets, reservists or regular force guys or in civillian life, anywhere, there is always going to be the potheads and the drinkers and smokers or whatever the case, can‘t get rid of it.


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## 1feral1

People are people, no matter what if they are cadets. Think back to when we were that age. Even though I never smoked, I did my share of swilling, as we all did. I joined the militia at 16, and never did cadets.

Almost sounds like some here have an inferiority complex. I reckon we should give these cadets a break, sure some are bad, but most are good, and are there because they want to be, not because they have to be.

Things have not changed that much, and besides I would rather have my kids puffing on a few fags, and having a few beers with CF ‘juniors‘ in the back of an armouries somewhere, than out at some rave party where things could be much worse, so i dont see what the big hooey is all about.

Cheers,

Wes


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## corporal-cam

> Originally posted by 3005_MWO:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> As for smoking, I know there is a PRCI on it, that bans smoking by cadets in Pacific Region, and I‘m fairly certain the CATO is updated as well, but there isn‘t a recent copy online. I‘ll let you nkow if I can get ahold of an updated copy.
> 
> CH [/qb]


I don‘t know about your corps but my squadron‘s standing orders for somking are: 
* No smoking at cadets or while in uniform
* when on ex‘s  no smoking while under/giving instruction 
* (and even though it‘s not written, no one smokes if it bothers someone eg. ashma)


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## cdhoult

That‘s what my corps did as well, and I think the CATO reflects the same thing (except it‘s no smoking, period, while on exercises or at a cadet function).

It makes sense to ban it in the movement though....it‘s counter productive to the aims. And of course, we‘re always leading by example.

CH


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## sgt_mandal

> Originally posted by CL84:
> [qb] Funny, walk up to a cadet smoking or drinking and let them know what you think of that, and that they shouldn‘t be doing it, they‘ll spit at you, tell you to f-off or start a fight with you ‘because they are wearing the uniform.‘ I‘m pretty sure that‘s what would happen. [/qb]


Since they are in uniform, they will probably be wearing their nametag and their Corp/Squadron name will be on their uniform somewhere.With that information could you not get the cadets kicked out of their Corps/Squadron? And if/when they are, they will not be in cadets anymore so they would never be smoking or drinking in uniform again (if you can understand my reasoning      )


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## chriscalow

The policy I always tried for at my cadet corps was one of compromise.  You will always have your smokers, and your non-smokers.  The way it worked was if you were a senior cadet, you could smoke IF.  You did not have work to be doing at that time,  Your Immediate supervisor knew where you were,  There were none of your subordinates anywhere near you, You had your beret in your pocket,  you were in an area designated for smoking,  you picked up your butts,  and if no one around at that time was opposed to it.  The RSM would give the ok for smoking for the night, after all the cadets were inside and organized, if there wasn‘t anything immediate needed.   Also, there should be no more than two people out for a smoke at any given time, and there is a time limit for how long your allowed out.  Because the people who don‘t smoke shouldn‘t have to cover for you and do your work while you go out for smokes all night.  It usually kept everyone happy.  If you just say no smoking period, then you‘re going to have smokers running off, with no one knowing where they went, having smokes anyways.  It‘s what we came up with and it worked.


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## bilal

corporal cam sgt.mandal was only giving a suggestion


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## bilal

when i went to blackdown their were some cadets that snuck out in the middle of the night for a smoke hey Colin ‘Chiefy‘ Hoult
you might know the cadets im talking about


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## Sgt.Fitzpatrick

I these tree hugging pot smoking hippies in my class who hate the cadets because they say 
 we fly planes to Iraq on Tuesdays and bomb childrens.There so dumb.They think that all we do as cadets is shoot and kill 
 people.


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## Sgt_McWatt

Ive meet my fair share of ignorant people like that. When ever people find out I'm in cadets first two questions I always get
1)Do you shoot guns?
2)Have you ever killed anyone?
Its rather tedious.


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## sgt_mandal

so true


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## Military Brat

corporal-cam said:
			
		

> 4) The Forces aren't angels either (eg. Somalia)



As the saying goes, "two wrongs don't make a right".


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## chalk1

This has, of course and as it always will, become an endless topic with no substance to its discussion.  But as usual, Im the idiot who has to reply.

The comparison/reference to Somalia is pointless, yet readily made by those who know nothing about it. I am not professing to be an expert, nor am I one who can say I have worthy military experience to which I can draw from, but I know one thing for *amn sure from meeting former members of the CAR who have and still do serve in the CF: The majority of those troops are some of the finest quality people I have met - professionally and personally. Im VERY sure you would not even imply to one such a silly notion that "every member of the CAR in Somalia was rotten". 

Now, we've discussed the whole concept of  cadets'  behaviour here before.Every organization has its set of rules, and also has those who will not fully comply with them. Follow the rules  whoever you may be, enforce them if you have a position of authority.


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## sgt_mandal

McBear said:
			
		

> Now, we've discussed the whole concept of   cadets'   behaviour here before.Every organization has its set of rules, and also has those who will not fully comply with them. Follow the rules   whoever you may be, enforce them if you have a position of authority.



I agree 100%. Not enough people who can do positive things in the movement do, if you catch my drift.


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## Franko

Geesh.....I thought this thread died a long time ago 

Good point McBear on the CAR

As for the rest of the drivel thrown about in this thread about members of the CF....you have absoulutly no idea of what you are speaking about. Unless you actually are in the CF and serving in an actual unit on deployment in a theater you really have no idea of what goes on.

Go back to playing "war games"   "Cpl "Cam..... 

If you troops can't sort out your people in the most simplest of deportment infractions... I suggest you quit and go home.

Regards


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## MikeM

Well said Franko, I have much respect for those who have been, and are currently serving overseas!


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## GGHG_Cadet

I think maybe a mod should lock this because it's not going anywhere.


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## Sgt.Fitzpatrick

I've seen cadets smoke on base and got away with because in the package for summer camps they  a form saying it if you let your child smoke let what happen in my air cadet summer camps.


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## sgt_mandal

I do believe this thread is getting off topic. I created it to see how and what members of the CF and other peoples thought about cadets as I have heard a lot of slander against this movement.


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## Infanteer

Hey Kids...


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## chalk1

All in favour, say "Aye"


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## GGHG_Cadet

Aye-this thread is no longer legitimate(if it ever was)


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## condor888000

Aye, I stayed out till now, but please lock this soon!!!!


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## Scratch_043

Aye, who started this anyway?


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## Infanteer

Done, done, and done.


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