# Survey: Vets "Face Significant Barriers Finding Meaningful Employment"



## The Bread Guy (13 Sep 2013)

> Canadian employers do not actively seek out military veterans when looking for new hires and most have no plans to make recruiting former soldiers a priority. In fact, most human resources professionals show little to no understanding of the skillset veterans have, a new study of Canadian employers conducted on behalf of the Veterans Transition Advisory Council reveals.
> 
> "This unprecedented research speaks to the importance of joint efforts underway between our Government, the Veterans Transition Advisory Council and leaders in corporate Canada to promote and encourage the hiring of Veterans," said the Honourable Julian Fantino, Minister of Veterans Affairs. "I look forward to participating in the upcoming True Patriot Love Multinational Symposium on Veterans Transition later this month, and to meeting with international counterparts as well as leaders in private industry to work towards greater progress on this important issue for Canada's Veterans."
> 
> ...


News release, 12 Sept 13


----------



## OldSolduer (13 Sep 2013)

We do not do a good job of promoting the skills and talents of our members. Most of the public, while loving us in times of trouble, tend to dismiss the CAF  in the good times.


----------



## Lightguns (13 Sep 2013)

When I left the Regs in 89, I made a jump from PPCLI Jnr NCO to Corporate Middle Manager, the biggest adjustments for me were:  

a.  Buying my own work clothes, I actually had to think about civilian clothing; 
b.  Doing my personal admin on my own time, some stuff is very hard to do if you work full time in civie world; and  
c.  No one at work cares about your personal problems and there is no professional help; divorces, illnesses, hang overs and sick kids can and will get you fired if you pre-occupy yourself with them at work.  In fact, just about anything the boss does not direct will get you fired at work in civie world.

There was no consideration for my PRes service and it had better not get in the way of my full time job.  I was so very happy to come back to full time service in 96!


----------



## McG (13 Sep 2013)

I did not see explanation as to what "significant barriers" exist.  There is typically the absence of special hiring policies to seek-out or give privilege t veterans.  That is not a barrier; that is is just treating vets like most everyone else.

Is the report on line somewhere?  As the article is written, veterans themselves seem to be an afterthought.  The motivation seems to be about the opportunity cost industry is experiencing by not putting veterans in higher jobs on the food chain.  Not that I am opposed to exploiting opportunities of mutual interest, but something seems missing from what has been presented in the article.


----------



## The Bread Guy (13 Sep 2013)

MCG said:
			
		

> .... Is the report on line somewhere? As the article is written, veterans themselves seem to be an afterthought.  The motivation seems to be about the opportunity cost industry is experiencing by not putting veterans in higher jobs on the food chain ....


I can't find any other specific report - the news release appears to be a summary of some sort of environmental scanning carried out in preparation for this, mentioned later in the statement....


> .... True Patriot Love Multinational Symposium on Veterans Transition
> 
> Held at Canada House in London, U.K., this two-day symposium (September 24-25, 2013) will focus on Veterans Transition by gathering international leaders on Veterans' issues including government, academia, charities and private industry to engage in dialogue and forge new partnerships to support todays Veterans in achieving their full potential ....


In that light, it's not out of line getting some sense of "what do we need to fix?" before running a conference about how to fix things.

More on said conference here and attached - it appears Minister Fantino and some senior CF and VAC folks (as well as Brit and Dutch experts) are slated to speak.


----------



## mariomike (13 Sep 2013)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> There was no consideration for my PRes service and it had better not get in the way of my full time job.



Depends on the employer. 

Some offer Leave With Pay ( LWP ) and full-benefits for two weeks each and every year to attend Reserve training.


----------



## Armymedic (13 Sep 2013)

I may be off base here, but why should there be any sort of preference for Canadian employers to hire former (Regular Force) military members.

Do they add value to their business, help bring profits, make them more efficient? 

If the answer is no, then why would they hire a former member.


----------



## Teager (13 Sep 2013)

Rider Pride said:
			
		

> I may be off base here, but why should there be any sort of preference for Canadian employers to hire former (Regular Force) military members.
> 
> Do they add value to their business, help bring profits, make them more efficient?
> 
> If the answer is no, then why would they hire a former member.



This _might_ help answer that.

http://www.canadacompany.ca/en/index.php/military-transition-program/for-employers

I do believe that a lot of programs were created to help injured find meaningful employment after there release. It seems now it has moved to all vets which is fair.


----------



## JorgSlice (14 Sep 2013)

Rider Pride said:
			
		

> I may be off base here, but why should there be any sort of preference for Canadian employers to hire former (Regular Force) military members.
> 
> Do they add value to their business, help bring profits, make them more efficient?
> 
> If the answer is no, then why would they hire a former member.



Preference in legislation; maybe not. But the employer may have a personal preference to hire former CF personnel because of their better discipline, hard work, better train-ability etc.

I know one of my employers hired me straight into a senior supervisory position simply because of my PRes experience, regardless of the fact I had applied for just a standard entry level position.


----------



## The_Falcon (14 Sep 2013)

Rider Pride said:
			
		

> I may be off base here, but why should there be any sort of preference for Canadian employers to hire former (Regular Force) military members.
> 
> Do they add value to their business, help bring profits, make them more efficient?
> 
> If the answer is no, then why would they hire a former member.



I think it is a concept that has crept North, from our American brethren, where many companies small and large make it point of pride to say they hire/employ vets.  My own personal observations/opinions are that many members of the CAF particularly those in the combat arms, have a great deal of difficulty marketing themselves to potential employers, especially since those trades don't lend themselves well to comparable civilian jobs. Education is also a factor, since it seems a large number of members punching out don't have post-secondary of any sorts, which is not helpful when even entry level jobs sometimes require degrees. And lastly, HR people more and more use software to screen resumes, based on keywords and phrases, with an emphasis on qualifications vs life experience.  I have read a few articles on LinkedIn and Workopolis that lament this practice, since while a person on paper seems qualified for a job, the reality is they often turn out to be totally incompetent.   

I personally (along with several other people I know) ran afoul of this,  during the last hiring Ontario Power Generation did for Nuclear Security Officer.  Myself and most of the other I knew who applied had at least 1 tour to the sand box (some more) various weapons quals and experience etc.  And none of us received invites for the first step, but a few brand new privates and corporals in our respective regiments, who were barely out of highschool, got the invites.  I later learned from my aunt who works in HR for OPG, that they use screening software, and if you don't include certain phrases/keywords, you automatically get rejected.


----------



## Strike (14 Sep 2013)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> Preference in legislation; maybe not. But the employer may have a personal preference to hire former CF personnel because of their better discipline, hard work, better train-ability etc.
> 
> I know one of my employers hired me straight into a senior supervisory position simply because of my PRes experience, regardless of the fact I had applied for just a standard entry level position.



Exactly.  It's not so much a matter of showing preference, but in understanding that a CF member's time in may give them some very important and useful skills that Johnny-Just-Out-of-School could never hope to get.


----------



## George Wallace (14 Sep 2013)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> .......................................  My own personal observations/opinions are that many members of the CAF particularly those in the combat arms, have a great deal of difficulty marketing themselves to potential employers, especially since those trades don't lend themselves well to comparable civilian jobs.




That is probably the biggest challenge right there.  Legislation will not improve your capabilities to sell yourself.




			
				Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> ........................................... And lastly, HR people more and more use software to screen resumes, based on keywords and phrases, with an emphasis on qualifications vs life experience.  I have read a few articles on LinkedIn and Workopolis that lament this practice, since while a person on paper seems qualified for a job, the reality is they often turn out to be totally incompetent.
> 
> I personally (along with several other people I know) ran afoul of this,  during the last hiring Ontario Power Generation did for Nuclear Security Officer.  Myself and most of the other I knew who applied had at least 1 tour to the sand box (some more) various weapons quals and experience etc.  And none of us received invites for the first step, but a few brand new privates and corporals in our respective regiments, who were barely out of highschool, got the invites.  I later learned from my aunt who works in HR for OPG, that they use screening software, and if you don't include certain phrases/keywords, you automatically get rejected.



That is something that has happened throughout the Western societies.  The Public Civil Service thrives on those buzz word and catch phrases.  Learn them and you can be a complete dolt and get hired.......and we are back to being able to sell yourself.


----------



## The_Falcon (14 Sep 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> .....and we are back to being able to sell yourself.



Not quite...you can have a supremely well crafted cover letter/resume, but with these software programs, unless you can deduce the precise words and phrases it's been assigned to look for, you are SOL at the start, like my OPG example.  I used practically the same resume with a variety of agencies (Toronto Police, McMaster, OPP etc.) and I got a positive response, OPG nadda.  After my aunt reviewed my resume/cover letter and the posting, she told me precisely it was because I didn't have phrases and keywords from the ad in my resume/letter.  

As well, some of these programs will also screen you out if you just try to copy/paste the posting (or parts of it) into your coverletter/resume and hide it with microfont and white text.


----------



## George Wallace (14 Sep 2013)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Not quite...you can have a supremely well crafted cover letter/resume, but with these software programs, unless you can deduce the precise words and phrases it's been assigned to look for, you are SOL at the start, like my OPG example.  I used practically the same resume with a variety of agencies (Toronto Police, McMaster, OPP etc.) and I got a positive response, OPG nadda.  After my aunt reviewed my resume/cover letter and the posting, she told me precisely it was because I didn't have phrases and keywords from the ad in my resume/letter.
> 
> As well, some of these programs will also screen you out if you just try to copy/paste the posting (or parts of it) into your coverletter/resume and hide it with microfont and white text.



Is that not what I said; knowing how to sell yourself?  Knowing the buzz words and catch phrases that will get you the job.  Knowing how to apply those buzz words to your experience, education and training.

Makes you wonder how many superior candidates a weeded out of a job application by these lazy practices of using these programs that screen applicant's Cover Letters and CVs.


----------



## The Bread Guy (14 Sep 2013)

Rider Pride said:
			
		

> I may be off base here, but why should there be any sort of preference for Canadian employers to hire former (Regular Force) military members.
> 
> *Do they add value to their business, help bring profits, make them more efficient? *
> 
> If the answer is no, then why would they hire a former member.


I think some of the work being done is to help potential employers understand how former CF members can contribute to that bit in yellow.  Some of the problem appears to be employers not understanding all the military contributes to one's skill sets.

Some of the problem also appears to be potential hires not doing enough to make it clearer how what they've learned in the military can help add value, bring profits or increase efficiency, touching on HM's point ....





			
				Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> My own personal observations/opinions are that many members of the CAF particularly those in the combat arms, have a great deal of difficulty marketing themselves to potential employers, especially since those trades don't lend themselves well to comparable civilian jobs.


I know when helping people apply for public service jobs, you have to match your skills, in simple language, to whatever the documentation says is being sought.  In the U.S., sites like this one at military.com are a good start - anyone know of similar sites here in Canada?

As for "great resume, shame about the work ethic", that problem is one that HR'ites see from _all _sectors of applicants.


----------



## The_Falcon (14 Sep 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Is that not what I said; knowing how to sell yourself?  Knowing the buzz words and catch phrases that will get you the job.  Knowing how to apply those buzz words to your experience, education and training.
> 
> Makes you wonder how many superior candidates a weeded out of a job application by these lazy practices of using these programs that screen applicant's Cover Letters and CVs.



There is selling yourself to a human HR person/Recruiter, and then their is playing word detective to figure out what the software has been programmed to look for.  In which case you don't even need to have a stellar resume (at the outset), good guessing and blind luck can get you past the first screen.  For example you can extol your virtues as a "weapons expert", with many years of safe handling, practical use etc., and it all looks mighty impressive, only problem is, the software was looking for the word  "firearms", so you get screened out. 

But yes I agree, it is a supremely lazy way to screen candidates, and in the end can bite the companies in the butt.


----------



## Gunner98 (14 Sep 2013)

There are two major programs started by corporate Canada - Helmets to Hard hats and Battlefield to Boardroom (http://truepatriotlove.com/battlefield-to-boardroom-conference/ ).  H2H is well underway, while B2B is still being developed.   

IMHO, some vets may find significant barriers for the following reasons:

- lack of education
- lack of time spent defining prior learning equivalencies
- lack motivation because they have been in a stable, trough-fed environment
- think they should enter workforce higher than their skill set- in an effort to earn same pay as they did in uniform
- are afraid to look beyond their immediate home region
- have not prepared themselves for life after the military

It is not just about the cover letter, the resume, the interview, and the education transcripts - it is about knowing what you want and where to find those jobs.  I found one that fit me on Workopolis by searching for key words and location.  Then did the research to develop the right cover letter, resume, character references and interview responses.  I was chosen over 49 non-military applicants with similar educational backgrounds.

The best jobs - the right one for you- is not going to jump out of cyberspace or a newspaper into your lap and no one is likely to call you to offer you a job.  Even B2B and H2H require you to self-identify and meet the qualifications for which they are looking.


----------



## The Bread Guy (23 Sep 2013)

MCG said:
			
		

> I did not see explanation as to what "significant barriers" exist ....


More, from the organizers of an upcoming conference on the subject, on what they think needs to be done ....


> .... One, a public campaign that clearly articulates the value of hiring veterans. Two, a champion, or champions, who will make Canada’s veterans more visible to the public. Three, a website that assists both veterans and corporate Canada with skill translation. And fourth, we suggest an annual award — perhaps handed out by the Governor-General or the Chief of the Defence Staff — for companies that set examples in assisting veterans with the transition to civilian employment ....


FYI, Veterans Affairs Minister Julian Fantino is planning to be in the U.K. for this conference on Canadian vets & hiring ....


> .... Next week, Minister Fantino will travel overseas to London to join public and private sector leaders from Australia, Canada, the United Kingdom, the United States, the Netherlands and France, at the Multinational Symposium on Veteran Transition hosted by Canada’s True Patriot Love Foundation. The two-day symposium will serve as a launching point for a multinational dialogue to address Veteran transition issues faced by all nations ....


----------



## daftandbarmy (23 Sep 2013)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> There are two major programs started by corporate Canada - Helmets to Hard hats and Battlefield to Boardroom (http://truepatriotlove.com/battlefield-to-boardroom-conference/ ).  H2H is well underway, while B2B is still being developed.
> 
> IMHO, some vets may find significant barriers for the following reasons:
> 
> ...



You might add 'no networks outside of the military' to that list. CF folks tend to hang with each other, which kills their networking chances when outside of the military.

The best jobs aren't at the end of a resume driven competition. They tend to be connected to people who you know - in some way - who need to hire someone. You know, kind of like in the CF where you ask 'do you know anyone who can do X?' and someone else says 'Yeah, let me see if I can get him/her posted in'. Not that that kind of thing really happens, right?


----------



## Danjanou (23 Sep 2013)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> There is selling yourself to a human HR person/Recruiter, and then their is playing word detective to figure out what the software has been programmed to look for.



Often the clue is in the actual job call. Their description of what they want and what they're looking for should almost be recreated word for word in the initial statement of their resume. 

Example I just pulled this off of the Working in Canada website ( a great resource BTW) for Security Guard http://www.workingincanada.gc.ca/home-eng.do?lang=eng

Their website:

Secure Protection Services is a security company in Calagary that specializes in mobile patrol inspections. Please visit us again at secureprotection.ca if you are looking for a reliable and efficient security company in Calgary and the surrounding areas

The job call online:

"Enforce regulations of establishments; Maintain order; Use telecommunications (i.e. two-way radio, cell phone, pager); Detect or prevent thefts and vandalism; Write reports"

Your resume buzz words would probably be:

Mobile patrol, reliable, efficient, use telecommunications , maintain order etc. 

 A bit simple but you get the idea


----------



## daftandbarmy (23 Sep 2013)

If you google around you can find some helpful stuff like this:

http://www.military.com/veteran-jobs/career-advice/resume-writing/making-your-resume-interview-ready.html


----------



## The_Falcon (23 Sep 2013)

I understand how to do it now, but it took missing a good opportunity to realize how to do it.  I was point this out so that other may learn, since not that many people are aware of these shenanigans.


----------



## The Bread Guy (23 Sep 2013)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Often the clue is in the actual job call. Their description of what they want and what they're looking for should almost be recreated word for word in the initial statement of their resume.
> 
> Example I just pulled this off of the Working in Canada website ( a great resource BTW) for Security Guard http://www.workingincanada.gc.ca/home-eng.do?lang=eng
> 
> ...


And you make it as easy for the HR person to match what they want to what you have, even if you have to draw up a table with the "what they asked for"(word for word) in one column, and "what you offer" in the column right next to it, using the buzzwords and translating what you did in the CF to what's sought.  I've attached a quick & dirty example using Danjanou's example and some "wordsmithing" of some of what soliders learn/teach/do.


----------



## dapaterson (23 Sep 2013)

There are resoruces available within the CF - local PSO offices are mandated to deliver such support.  See, among other resources, the SCAN program: http://www.admfincs-smafinsm.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/5000/5031-4-eng.asp


----------



## stealthylizard (23 Sep 2013)

My entire release was done in 2 weeks, the majority of it during the last week of my VIE.  What SCAN seminar?  Oh yeah, now I remember.  You need to go on a winter survival exercise a month before your release date, so you don't have time to attend any seminars.  Good thing I still had all my kit until 2 days before I finalized everything.  Meanwhile, people releasing a month after me, were able to attend the seminar, and miss the FTX.


----------



## Nudibranch (24 Sep 2013)

> Either Canadian employers aren't interested in supporting Canada's veterans, or they aren't aware of the support that's needed.



Eh. I agree that it's more on the CAF and members themselves - with the exception of programs like Helmets to Hard Hate, employers on the whole aren't in the business of providing "support" to populations that might want a job. They're interested in hiring good employees with the proper skillsets/trainability/whatever for the position. It's up to the member for the most part, with some level of support from CAF, to learn how to market themselves for civilian employment.


----------



## Danjanou (24 Sep 2013)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> And you make it as easy for the HR person to match what they want to what you have, even if you have to draw up a table with the "what they asked for"(word for word) in one column, and "what you offer" in the column right next to it, using the buzzwords and translating what you did in the CF to what's sought.  I've attached a quick & dirty example using Danjanou's example and some "wordsmithing" of some of what soliders learn/teach/do.



Nice one, I am so stealing this and passing it on to my resume coach/job developer here who is beoming our resident SME on converting military resumes to civy ones.


----------



## Journeyman (24 Sep 2013)

Nudibranch said:
			
		

> ....programs like Helmets to Hard Hate


I am SO into that program!


----------



## daftandbarmy (24 Sep 2013)

Just a pet peeve of mine about CF folks who contact me for advice/ help in job seeking:

I get CF folks calling me from time to time for ideas about jobs and contacts in the job market. They typically rank from Sergeant to LCol. They seem interested and engaged, so I try to link them up with people I know who might be able to help them - usually via email or by a conversation of some kind. 

Almost always, they either never call/ connect with these people or, if they do, they rarely follow up. They also seldom reconnect with me to say thanks, offer to buy me a coffee/beer etc, and I get a sense that they feel entitled to this help in some odd way.

The end result is that the people I know, and who I have referred these CF folks to, wind up thinking that I am a bit of a flake, or that CF members in general are flakes. I also get gun shy of ever wanting to help people like this again.

In the past 10 years or so I have had one huge success, where a CF guy got a great job through a contact I helped him manage. The rest, not so much to the point that I have stopped referring people who contact me as I fear my own reputation is at stake.

Just sayin' ...


----------



## Nudibranch (24 Sep 2013)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> The end result is that the people I know, and who I have referred these CF folks to, wind up thinking that I am a bit of a flake, or that CF members in general are flakes. I also get gun shy of ever wanting to help people like this again.



Well, mamy CAF members probably _are_ flakes. No different than the rest of the population. The Helmet to HH type programs extol the leadership and self-motivation of CAF members, and that's true in many cases...but untrue in others. Being one of the last true cradle-to-grave career opportunities, let's face it, CAF is not the worst place to park your ass if you're generally lazy and unwilling to do more than the minimum needed to keep the job. Having to hustle on civi street can be rough after that.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (24 Sep 2013)

Let us make one thing clear, it is not nor should it be the military's job to help soldier Bloggins find a job after he has decided to leave the service.  People need to realize that they aren't going to be hand-fed civvie side like they are in the military and that they might actually have to work to make the connections to land a job civvie side.  The only guys that are going to be able to land a high paying job right off the bat out of the military with very little effort are the very senior leadership (CWO's & Col's/Gen Offrs) who have made the necessary connections and have the reputation and credibility that their rank gives them.

Someone mentioned it in this thread earlier, guess what boys and girls it is all about networking which is something military folk are very generally bad at because as was pointed out, military folk often don't associate with people outside of the military.  If you want to land a good job civvy side brush up on your people skills and start talking to folks.  I personally carry a pack of *business cards* (which I made myself) so that when I go to any meetings and meet new people I can exchange contact information!  

Also, another good tool is *LinkedIn*, whenever you meet someone new, check to see if they have a linkedin account.  I have only had mine for about 6 months now but already have over a 100+ contacts.  This could prove very valuable in the future if I am looking for other employment.  Remember it is not what you know, it is who you know!


----------



## UnwiseCritic (24 Sep 2013)

The above is true. Networking is also easier now than ever before via the Internet. And when I released there was more than enough help given to me... Albeit I never used that info. Also while you're in the cf gives you plenty of opportunity to upgrade your resume civi side. Usually on the army's dime and your time. Yes your time, the army agreed to train you in your trade. Anything else is pretty much extra. Kind of like the civilian world. Only you'll have to make time and pay.


----------



## maniac (26 Sep 2013)

The CF trains just enough to give you skill in tasks but not enough to get the ticket which is recognized outside the military.  Job fairs sponsored by the military during SCANs would be a great start, then you get to talk to them about what they want and you can prepare for it.


----------



## The Bread Guy (26 Sep 2013)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Nice one, I am so stealing this and passing it on to my resume coach/job developer here who is beoming our resident SME on converting military resumes to civy ones.


PM inbound with a bit more detail, bud.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (26 Sep 2013)

Here is another idea as well, how many soldiers are actually members of their Regimental Association or something similar?  I am a member of both the RCR Association and the RMC Club and the amount of jobs I hear about through these channels is astounding.  Again it all goes back to networking, start building the network and it will become easier and easier to find meaningful employment.


----------

