# It's so Cold in Manitoba.....



## Bograt (5 Mar 2008)

How cold was it....?

So cold that hell froze over- a Challenger and Polaris slot for the last multi selection.

Good time to be in flying seized wing.


----------



## Good2Golf (5 Mar 2008)

Bograt said:
			
		

> How cold was it....?
> 
> So cold that hell froze over- a Challenger and Polaris slot for the last multi selection.
> 
> Good time to be in flying seized wing.



LOL

If I were a young kid in Moose Jaw, I wouldn't be breaking any knee caps to get a Challenger or CC150 posting...you might as well drive a Toyota Camry to work as well... *_yawn_*


----------



## Sf2 (5 Mar 2008)

coming from the guy who drives an Ultimate Driving me Crazy Machine.


----------



## Good2Golf (6 Mar 2008)

SF2 said:
			
		

> coming from the guy who drives an Ultimate Driving me Crazy Machine.





SF, have you seen the new 335d Coupe coming out this fall?  That'll put Rinnie's machine to shame...  ;D


----------



## Sf2 (6 Mar 2008)

There's a diesel coming out?  I'll have to tell my dad about that one.  For some reason, he's obsessed with diesels.  I'll take the 135i myself.


----------



## WannaBeFlyer (7 Mar 2008)

> I wouldn't be breaking any knee caps to get a Challenger or CC150 posting...you might as well drive a Toyota Camry to work as well... *yawn*


Weird - I can't tell you how many times I have sat on the bumper of my Toyota and watched CanForceX do circuits at YOW while thinking, "Man I would love to do that." That many slots eh? Oh well; it is still just a day dream at this point.


----------



## Sf2 (7 Mar 2008)

> eird - I can't tell you how many times I have sat on the bumper of my Toyota and watched CanForceX do circuits at YOW while thinking, "Man I would love to do that." That many slots eh? Oh well; it is still just a day dream at this point.



Funny, cuz I sit in the front of my Griffon and think - "Boy am I glad I'm not doing that......"


----------



## SupersonicMax (7 Mar 2008)

SF2 said:
			
		

> Funny, cuz I sit in the front of my Griffon and think - "Boy am I glad I'm not doing that......"



And I sit in the front of my Hawk and think : "Boy, I'm glad I'm flying faster than 20 knots!!"

I'm just kidding, you guys have a wicked jobs, and I'm serious.  It's just not for me.

Max


----------



## benny88 (7 Mar 2008)

Max,

   How are you liking the Fast Air course? How many people are on it?


----------



## SupersonicMax (7 Mar 2008)

benny88 said:
			
		

> Max,
> 
> How are you liking the Fast Air course? How many people are on it?



Check your PM... I don't want to hijack this thread more than it is now


----------



## Good2Golf (7 Mar 2008)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> And I sit in the front of my Hawk and think : "Boy, I'm glad I'm flying faster than 20 knots!!"
> 
> I'm just kidding, you guys have a wicked jobs, and I'm serious.  It's just not for me.
> 
> Max



Don't underestimate it, Max -- 20 kts can be pretty spicy!  8)

G2G


----------



## SeaKingTacco (8 Mar 2008)

> Don't underestimate it, Max -- 20 kts can be pretty spicy!



Especially at night, in sea state 6, 25NM ahead your ship, at 40 ft.  Good Times!


----------



## Inch (8 Mar 2008)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Especially at night, in sea state 6, 25NM ahead your ship, at 40 ft.  Good Times!



Or in a 15ft "hover" over the deck with a 40+kt relative wind in sea state stupid watching the deck pitch 5 degrees and roll almost 20 while waiting patiently for the steady period to come every 5-6 min and then try to land before the 15 sec steady period ends. That gets the blood pumping!


----------



## SeaKingTacco (8 Mar 2008)

> Or in a 15ft "hover" over the deck with a 40+kt relative wind in sea state stupid watching the deck pitch 5 degrees and roll almost 20 while waiting patiently for the steady period to come every 5-6 min and then try to land before the 15 sec steady period ends. That gets the blood pumping!



Meh- by then, I have my dark visor down, eyes shut and harness locked.  They are all night landings for me!


----------



## Globesmasher (9 Mar 2008)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> LOL
> 
> If I were a young kid in Moose Jaw, I wouldn't be breaking any knee caps to get a Challenger or CC150 posting...you might as well drive a Toyota Camry to work as well... *_yawn_*



You old fart!!

Get ready for it kids - pipes will be posted to EVERYTHING from now on.
The Air Mobility Group has finally taken the "old boys & dinsoaurs" out behind the wood shed and shot them.
The sacred cow of Air Mobility postings has now been put to bed.

Fresh new pilots can now pipe directely to the CC150 Airbus and the Challenger.
Pipes will be going onto the new C130J and also onto the C-17.

It's a good time to be a newbie coming out of YMJ and YPG.

As for G2G and me ...... well ..... we're just waiting out turn in the line to go out behind the wood shed.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (9 Mar 2008)

About friggin time.  (about the pipes, not you and G2G behind the woodshed...wait...that didn't sound right, either)


----------



## C1Dirty (9 Mar 2008)

Globesmasher

Any truth to the rumour that C17/A310/Challenger pipes will be cones for their entire first tour?


----------



## Zoomie (9 Mar 2008)

C1Dirty said:
			
		

> Any truth to the rumour that C17/A310/Challenger pipes will be *cones *for their entire first tour?



AFAIK - "cones" is a semi-derogatory term for Navigators (i.e. Cone of Confusion).

If the rumour to which you are referring has the pipeliners remaining as Co-pilots for their entire first tour - I haven't heard of that one yet.  Doesn't really make sense IMO - if we can train up a pipe to be a SAR/TAL/AAR/STRAT pilot - he can surely handle pushing buttons at FL350.


----------



## Good2Golf (10 Mar 2008)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> About friggin time.  (about the pipes, not you and G2G behind the woodshed...wait...that didn't sound right, either)



SKT, if Globe and I are being taken out behind the woodshed, I can think of a 22/31 that would be keeping us company...  ;D

G2G


----------



## Globesmasher (10 Mar 2008)

C1Dirty said:
			
		

> Globesmasher
> 
> Any truth to the rumour that C17/A310/Challenger pipes will be cones for their entire first tour?



That is not determined yet.

The old paradigm required pipeliners to upgrade from First Officer to Aircraft Commander within 3 years (36 months in the Div Orders).  After that they have even more time to then upgrade in their speciality such as a Tactical or SAR Aricraft Commander.  However, with the upgrade in technology and the new "paradigm" we shall wait and see how the first batch of guys do on the various airframes.  The C-17 and the Airbus do not have extra "categories" - they are all one and the same so it may take longer for a guy/gal to upgrade.

No rush though.


----------



## Globesmasher (10 Mar 2008)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> - if we can train up a pipe to be a SAR/TAL/AAR/STRAT pilot - he can surely handle pushing buttons at FL350.



That would be an over-simplification.


----------



## C1Dirty (10 Mar 2008)

> However, with the upgrade in technology and the new "paradigm" we shall wait and see how the first batch of guys do on the various airframes.



Check, thanks for the response.  My guess would be that 36 months is pretty reasonable if they're flying lots.


----------



## Zoomie (11 Mar 2008)

Globesmasher said:
			
		

> That would be an over-simplification.



I'll concede that pushing buttons is not all that the boys do - but coming from the most seat-of-the-pants aircraft in the AMAG community - this is how we view anything with more than 6000 SHP.

  I would think that being a TAL AC dropping CDS and troops in Afghanistan and only being 3 years out of Portage is a pretty steep curve - this is being achieved as I type by fellow brethren at 436 Sqn.

How does flying the big iron in and out of CAT II airports across the world (CC-150 and Challenger) stand on the difficulty scale?

I imagine that we are going to have to see pipes upgrading on the J-models, FWSAR, CH-148, Chinook, etc - all of which are just as technologically advanced as the former sacred cows.


----------



## Globesmasher (11 Mar 2008)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> I'll concede that pushing buttons is not all that the boys do - but coming from the most seat-of-the-pants aircraft in the AMAG community - this is how we view anything with more than 6000 SHP.
> 
> I would think that being a TAL AC dropping CDS and troops in Afghanistan and only being 3 years out of Portage is a pretty steep curve - this is being achieved as I type by fellow brethren at 436 Sqn.
> 
> ...



The Airbus and Challenger are out of my swim lane.
I don't plan or write the QS for those aircraft.
I have no idea how long their upgrade plans are going to be.

As for the CC177 - well, it's a little more than big iron that only flies into CAT II airports.
Plus, right now, the CC177 is the only FW transport asset that flies with the two pilots using NVGs into forward operating locations.
Tactical approaches are still flown "hands on" since the automation simply cannot keep up to the manoeuvring, bank angles, speeds and rates of descent required for the profiles.
Airdrop is still being developed, but the guys have to learn to walk before they run.
Airdrop will begin any day now (or so the leadership says).
It's all still up in the air right now WRT upgrade timing.

Walk a mile in the other "AMAG shoes" before making such broad, sweeping generalizations.

There's a lot more to these big, sacred AMAG cows ............ there's more to their flying than staying below 10,000' VFR around domestic Canadian Airspace and some of North America.  But that would be a broad sweeping generalization.

International IFR flying is a whole new ball game.

That being said, I know (2nd hand) of the immense challenges faced by SAR crews flying the Buff and Herc when it comes to fading daylight, night ops in the mountains, marginal weather and low altitude drops.  Very, very challenging flying by skilled crews that make us proud each day.  The guys here at 424 Sqn keep me appraised of their various harrowing experiences.  It's not easy by any stretch of the imagination.  While I have never flown SAR I can only imagine that it can be hair-raising and far from easy.  I am well aware that there is a lot to SAR than meets the eye.

Apples and oranges ......... one cannot be compared to another when it comes to how to time upgrades and run an OJTP.

Having spent the last 4 years developing OSS's, TS's and QS's for two fleets of transport aircraft I have learned that one fleet does not equal the other regardless of what each specific specialty thinks (SAT, TAT, SAR or AAR).

SAR is entirely different than TAT and SAT.  Each has its own challenges and unique characteristics.  One is not harder than the other.  They're just different, that's all.

Having 120,000 or 160,000 lbs of thrust does not make life easier than having a mere 6000 SHP.

Whatever upgrade timings are developed, will be developed by the SMEs of each role and fleet with AF Trg and various TDOs.

Bottom line:
It's a good time to be a pipe.  You now get to go DIRECTLY to every available fleet type in the CF inventory directly on your first tour and you will (performance pending) upgrade at some time in your career (at a time yet to be determined).


----------



## Zoomie (11 Mar 2008)

_I digress in the interests of keeping this thread on topic.  _


----------



## C1Dirty (18 Mar 2008)

That was good gents.

I agree, whether you're pushing buttons or hand flying, it's a pretty small part of the upgrade.  That sort of stuff gets sorted out pretty early in the game.

I was thinking that part of the rational behind the rumour (full tour as cone) might be retention.  A couple thousand C17/A310 PIC hrs  would open a lot of doors at the end of obligatory service.  Glad to hear none of it's true.

BTW...what's AMAG, I thought that was an advisory group.


----------



## Globesmasher (19 Mar 2008)

Air Mobility Advisory Group


----------

