# A question before I leave for IAP.



## Talon16 (28 Mar 2007)

I have a question before I go for my IAP course in St. Jean on the 27th of May.

I have served the past year with the West Nova Scotia Regiment, Army Reserves. I have successfully completed both BMQ and SQ. I was just wondering if any of the things I qualified for during BMQ and SQ can exempt me from anything on IAP. I was just wondering because I'm already qualified on the C7 service rifle, drill, first aid, NBCD etc. I also recently (three days ago) passed my Battlefield Fitness Test (aka 13km ruck march etc.). I just don't see why I should have to take all the things I already qualified on again. If you have any answers, let me know and I would really appreciate it! Thanks again!


Patrick Dornan
Pte, 1Plt. WNSR
(Soon to be OCdt)


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## Michael OLeary (28 Mar 2007)

You don't get any exemptions, and you don't want to be the "special child" standing aside while your peers are being trained and evaluated.


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## JesseWZ (28 Mar 2007)

Seconded. We had tons of ex-reservists on my IAP including one who had previously held a commission and had completed CAP. He still went through it all.


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## mudrecceman (28 Mar 2007)

Talon16 said:
			
		

> I have a question before I go for my IAP course in St. Jean on the 27th of May.
> 
> I have served the past year with the West Nova Scotia Regiment, Army Reserves. I have successfully completed both BMQ and SQ. I was just wondering if any of the things I qualified for during BMQ and SQ can exempt me from anything on IAP. I was just wondering because I'm already qualified on the C7 service rifle, drill, first aid, NBCD etc. I also recently (three days ago) passed my Battlefield Fitness Test (aka 13km ruck march etc.). I just don't see why I should have to take all the things I already qualified on again. If you have any answers, let me know and I would really appreciate it! Thanks again!
> 
> ...



The things you have done already will help you in IAP.  However, there is MORE to IAP than what you have already done.  Also, consider the fact that they just can't bypass you for "certain" things, such as the BFT or C7.

IIRC, to get a IAP bypass, you must have completed your PLQ.  Read "leadership" stuff.  Ok?  BMQ and SQ doesn't cover those.

IAP is a course, start to finish.  Your previous training should make IAP easier on you, however, you are still going to have to redo (if I may use that term) these PCs, at the IAP course level.  It will also make you able to strengthen your Pl, by assisting those who haven't seen/done this before, which, as a leader, you should be willing, able, and capable of doing.  All the time.  As a leader.  As a future Officer.

Ref your "I am already qualified" comment to...CBRN...C7...BFT...etc.  It just doesn't happen once.  Its throughout your career.  I, for whatever reason, had to do the EXPRES test 3 times in 3 months.  So what.  

While I "understand" where you are coming from, realize that you did NOT complete the IAP course in your previous training.  You most likely DID do some parts of it however the CFLRS staff can't say "OK, OCdt Bloggins did the BFt.  OCdt Sams did the C7.  OCdt Yulla did the drill portion."

Its not the way it works.  Sorry.  What would you do if, say, they bypassed you the BFT portion, or the CBRN?  Let you watch TV and eat chips?  Nope, won't happen.

Your previous training will help you, and let you help others.  Use that.  Use that to assist others who aren't at "your" level yet.

FWIW, do NOT go to IAP with the "but I have done this already" mind set.

If the CF thought you had all the required training, they would have bypassed you on it.  They didn't.  

You will REPEAT CBRN...wpns....drill...and countless other training throughout your career.  

I know and have talked to your CO on more than one occasion, and I am sure he would tell you close to what I have said here.  I sat beside him, as a recently-retire PPCLI Maj at the time, for a TCCCS course, and he had NO problem being there.  Should you on IAP then?   8)


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## Jeff521 (29 Mar 2007)

I was in the same situation as you when I completed my IAP last year. I had done time as an infantier in the reserves and wasn't sure what to expect in terms of repitition of subject matter and the like.

Here are my suggestions:

1) DO NOT make the mistake of thinking that you are above any of the training or any of the other candidates. IAP is about assessing your leadership potential not your skills at weapons handling or drill.

2) Having some prior experience will mean that the staff will expect more of you. Expect to be put into a leadership position early in the course. Treat the other candidates under you with respect and don't look down on them for their lack of experience; they will pick up on it and it will not reflect well on you.

3) As I said before IAP is about assessing leadership potential. Use your experiance to help others on your course, this reflects better on you and helps your coursemates. You mentioned your C7 qualification; weapons classes on IAP progress at a much faster pace than on BMQ and some people will have difficulties. Use your knowledge to help them. You will find that you have a lot more free time on your hands on IAP than on BMQ, use that time to pass on your experiance to the others. Show them how to assemble their rucks, how to polish their boots, how to use map and compass, how to recognize rank and so on.

4) I said to pass on your experience to others but, DO NOT go flaunting your experience around. You look like an arrogant jerk and it doesn't look good to the staff. Also, you won't have any friends on a very teamwork oriented course.

5) You're not such a special case. Many former NCM's, reg force and reserve, CT to officer and most of them have more experience than you. Don't expect to be the only one on your course with experience.

To sum up. Yes there will be repitition and things will be boring at times, but remember what IAP is about, showing leadership potential. Don't show up with an attitude, help your buddies, make friends and enjoy the course.

Good Luck


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## cda84 (30 Mar 2007)

Not to beat anything to death here, the last 2 posts said it best.

I have gone through Reserve BMQ and IAP. IAP is longer and different. Yes, much of the material is the same. Would it be in the CF's interest to have a modified IAP for NCMs with time in, say join in later? Perhaps yes. But it's not an issue. Focus on becoming a good leader. You get out of IAP what you put into it. Passing IAP as course senior on a Saturday afternoon, will very likely allow you to pass the course PO for leadership. However, strive to do more. Work hard, most importantly, help others!

As JesseWZ there mentioned, yes, there was someone who had finished CAP, who was on IAP. He has since received a BOTP bypass, and this implies yes an IAP bypass should have been given as well. However, that does not mean he didn't learn anything about himself on IAP! He did! He worked on his own leadership qualities. It's more army field time, more stress, and therefore more time for self improvement. Make the best of it.

Make it your goal to come out of the course a better soldier and to work on your leadership. Obviously you have already been taught stuff like the C7. Therefore you don't need to worry about learning that again. Instead, worry about being a better leader and a better officer. Plus, you were an NCM prior. Sort out some wrong young lost OCdt attitudes if you see any. Help them help themselves. Make it your mission to help your platoon the best you can as a whole graduate as a platoon of leaders that the CF wants to have.

Good luck, any questions feel free to drop me an email


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## Seatech (18 Apr 2007)

FYI, you won't be the only member that is going on this course that has military experience. I know of at least 26 others that are going on IAP this summer that are in the Military already, myself being one of them.

Not sure what the problem you see with doing over the training, but if you have been around the military awhile you will know that you have to do refresher training all the time including first aid, c7, nbcd, etc. I have done all of these MANY times but I definitely don't intend to tell anyone there. I suggest that you do the same.

I know that they will have my pers file there and they will be able to figure out all they need to know on me just fine. 

I look at this summer as a chance to get into the best shape of my life and I am very much looking forward to all the new things that I will learn from the course.

Good Luck, and I will see you there.


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## Rowshambow (19 Apr 2007)

The only way you can "bypass" IAP is if they (Ottawa, Borden whoever) has asked to see proof that you have done a JLC or PLQ or whatever you crazy kids are calling it today!


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## Disenchantedsailor (15 May 2007)

or CLC or ISCC, but not OPME


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## scoutfinch (15 May 2007)

Rowshambow said:
			
		

> The only way you can "bypass" IAP is if they (Ottawa, Borden whoever) has asked to see proof that you have done a JLC or PLQ or whatever you crazy kids are calling it today!



I am not sure that this is entirely accurate as I have been granted an IAP/BOTP/CAP bypass.  I have fully completed my training in an MOC that is different from the MOC I will be entering into in the Reg Force.  I don't know the criteria for bypass but I am pretty sure that it is discretionary and not just a matter of 'ticking off the boxes' for various courses.  I say this because I know many people who have completed Reserve BMQ/BOTP and CAP who have had to return to IAP/BOTC/CAP upon a successful CT.  I know of only myself and one other person that have gotten complete bypasses without having significant reserve experience (ie. we both have less than two years reserve time).    I am not suggesting that we are exceptional soldiers, only that the bypass is discretionary (although we both did extremely well on our courses).

If you ask me, it makes perfect sense.  Why tie up training resources when we have recently completed the same course quite successfully?  I just don't understand why it doesn't apply more uniformly.

Edited to complete my thought process


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## Disenchantedsailor (15 May 2007)

were you jlc/plq qualified?


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## scoutfinch (15 May 2007)

I am/was a Direct Entry Officer in the Reserves.  I have been in for just over a year.  I have an ongoing CT but have been advised by CFRG that I will bypass IAP/BOTC/CAP and proceed to SLT prior to commencing training in my new MOC.

Note:  My comments are directed more at JesseWC's comments which indicate that he went through course with someone who had previously completed CAP. I suspect that the demands on the training system are such that if you have completed a course, you don't have to repeat it if you CT.  As a result, I won't have to repeat a reg force IAP/BOTC when I have completed a reserve BMQ/BOTP/CAP, even though there is no real comparison between the res and reg basic officer training.  This may be due to the fact that there is no longer any distinction between reg and res CAP (on paper atleast!)


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## Disenchantedsailor (15 May 2007)

I take your point, and as I recently heard from CTC (or saw on documentum) CAP is now a combined reg/res course, only predominantly filled with reservists during the summer months. And indeed if you have completed the res IAP/BOTC/CAP than it would be logical for a bypass (when I CT'd to navcomm in the late 90's I was a recruit school bypass myself). Best of luck with your CT


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## Rowshambow (15 May 2007)

OLGA, a BOTP IAP you already did is equal or better than a PLQ that's why they (BORDEN) look at everyones files. So it is like I said, if you have a plq or equivalent or higher you prob get a bypass on IAP! That was straight from the BPSO's mouth! You would still have to do BOTP, unless like in your case you already did it, BOTp and IAP are not trade specific all Officers regardless of trade do it! I thought it was pretty much self explanatory, that a BMQ or SQ is not a PLQ or IAP!


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## scoutfinch (15 May 2007)

(1)  Reserve Officers don't do IAP/BOTC.

(2)  Reserve Officers do a BMQ (the same BMQ as a reserve Pte(R))followed by a one week BOTP.

(3) Therefore, Reserve Officers do not have the same basic officer training as a Reg Force Officer.  A reserve Officer does not do IAP or a complete BOTP.

(4) As a result, not everyone gets an IAP bypass.  In fact, most still have to redo BOTC because the reserve BOTP is not considered an equivalent (unless the candidate has completed CAP -- however that is not a guarantee to a bypass).

Please get your facts straight before quoting the BPSO to me.


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## x-grunt (15 May 2007)

Olga Chekhova said:
			
		

> (1)  Reserve Officers don't do IAP/BOTC.
> 
> (2)  Reserve Officers do a BMQ (the same BMQ as a reserve Pte(R))followed by a one week BOTP.
> 
> ...



A friendly correction:

*ARMY* Reserve Officers don't do IAP/BOTC.

I bring this up as all reserves tend to get lumped together. Only the Militia (and maybe comm res, but I have no info about them) has a condensed training regimen for basic training. Other elements have a reg force equivalent IAP/BOTC.


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## Rowshambow (15 May 2007)

Olga, ummm ya. You are talking out your butt!

BOTC and IAP are two totally different courses! As I prev stated some people can get an IAP bypass, but not a BOTP (C) bypass, you stated that res officers might get an iap bypass but still have to do BOTP (C) that's what I was saying!!!!!!! Perhaps you need to re read the prev post! I stand by what was said to me by the BPSO (who is more of an experts than you or I) if you have a PLQ (read also Res IAP, BOTP whatever but LEADERSHIP TRAINING!!!!) you might get IAP by pass but not BOTP bypass!!! That's also why you see people who were ex WO's or SGT's on BOTP, but not IAP!!! But like I said before (and this is the common sense part that you might not get) a BMQ, SQ or trade qualification course is not a leadership course and will not get you any type of bypass!

So that's the facts, maybe you should have to do your courses again if you can't even differentiate an IAP and BOTP!! Just going off of your # 4 statement!


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## scoutfinch (15 May 2007)

x-grunt said:
			
		

> A friendly correction:
> 
> *ARMY* Reserve Officers don't do IAP/BOTC.
> 
> I bring this up as all reserves tend to get lumped together. Only the Militia (and maybe comm res, but I have no info about them) has a condensed training regimen for basic training. Other elements have a reg force equivalent IAP/BOTC.



Thanks for the correction.  You are absolutely right.


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## scoutfinch (15 May 2007)

Rowshambow said:
			
		

> OLGA, a BOTP IAP you already did is equal or better than a PLQ that's why they (BORDEN) look at everyones files. So it is like I said, if you have a plq or equivalent or higher you prob get a bypass on IAP! That was straight from the BPSO's mouth! You would still have to do BOTP, unless like in your case you already did it, BOTp and IAP are not trade specific all Officers regardless of trade do it! I thought it was pretty much self explanatory, that a BMQ or SQ is not a PLQ or IAP!



Let me say it again.... army reserve officers do not do IAP (re: your comments below regarding Res IAP).  They do not do an equivalent BOTP/BOTC.  As a result, they have to redo BOTP/BOTC at a minimum in many cases.  And some also have to do IAP.  

(This is precisely what I previously articulated but I now realize that including more than two thoughts in my 4th point must have confused you so perhaps that clears things up a little bit.)


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## Rowshambow (15 May 2007)

OLGA, I will type slower for you!
Maybe you are confused!! 
Read the title its not about reserve stuff he/she asks about IAP!!! 
I was trying to point out that depending what LEADERSHIP courses you have (whether reserve or reg force) you can get an IAP bypass! so if you did a reserve plq, botp whatever, yes you would still have to do a BOTP, but not an IAP, now follow me, cause this is where it gets tricky for you. Like you said Reserves do not have to do an IAP, but if they go reg force (which is what the first question is about) does the person have to do an IAP, and like myself and others have tried to point out, if you have a LEADERSHIP COURSE you might get an IAP bypass, but would still have to do a BOTP, but an SQ, BMQ (reg or reserve) will not get you an IAP bypass 
I don't know how else to say it? it seems like plain English to me? 
Anyrate that's about all I can dumb it down so regardless if you get it or not I am done on this subject, I think the original poster has his answer!


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## Jeff521 (16 May 2007)

Ladies and Gentlemen,

This discussion seems to have taken a somewhat nasty turn. It is not necessary to antagonize other posters in order to make your point. The topic of discussion has also drifted away from that of the original post. The original poster made it clear that he would be attending IAP, so arguing over the circumstances under which a IAP/BOTP bypass can be granted has little bearing on the original poster's situation.

Please try to keep things civil.


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