# Edmonton's police helicopter program may be grounded



## CougarKing (29 Nov 2014)

Will someone in aviation please clarify why single-engine helicopters even need a runway to take off, as highlighted further down below? So you telling me these types of choppers can't even land at remote helipads such as those on oil rigs or mountain tops?

CBC



> *Police helicopter program may be grounded*
> CBC – Thu, 27 Nov, 2014
> 
> There will be no more police helicopters speeding over the city to crime scenes in a few years if council decides not to fund a replacement chopper.
> ...


----------



## SeaKingTacco (29 Nov 2014)

I can think of no reason why they would need a runway.


----------



## ModlrMike (29 Nov 2014)

They should look at the Robinson R66 or Bell 206. Both come in at about $1M USD and are widely used by police elsewhere.


----------



## The_Falcon (29 Nov 2014)

Some posted this in the CBC comments 



> Not all helicopters are created equally. Yes, all helicopters have the ability to lift off and land vertically but this does not mean that all can lift their Maximum Gross Weight (aircraft, crew, mission equipment and fuel) out of ground effect, vertically, to clear any obstructions. Many, like the EC120's that the EPS operates, need a running start in order to pick up enough speed in order to fly away like an airplane would. This is called "translational lift", in that the air moving over the rotor disk gives it additional lift much like an airplane wing.
> The issue for Urban Patrol Helicopters is noise. If EPS moves to the much louder AS350 helicopter as one counsellor suggests, noise complaints from citizens will go through the roof. The proposed EC135 helicopter has an enclose "Fenestron" tail rotor system that dramatically cuts down on the noise produced, this makes it compatible with flights over urban areas at night, and stealthy in certain conditions. How long would the program survive if dozens of noise complaints were received each night.
> How long would the program survive if the lone engine suddenly quit working over a residential neighbourhood. Two engines mean safety, and why shouldn't the officers on board be kept safe while they are keeping you safe


----------



## GINge! (29 Nov 2014)

The choppers they had in 2006-2011 were already pretty loud. Every Saturday night, flying circuits over our place in the NE. I wondered if there was that much crime that they were responding to, or if they were just up in the air for patrolling?


----------



## Good2Golf (29 Nov 2014)

'Runway' is not the best description. 'suitable approach/take off area(s)' would be a better description. In the Canadian Aviation Regulations, such areas are called FATOs (final approach, take off) and while they may indeed look like a 'runway' to most people, '*R*unway' has a very specific connotation in air traffic control operations and aerodrome licensing. 

That said, there are several helicopter pilots here who will tell you that two engines is not necessarily better, or safer.  In some cases, even twin-engine helicopters need FATOs to operate in certain flight regimes (all up weights that approach an aircraft's max all up weight). Sikorsky S-76, a popular medevac helo, and earlier versions of which whose two engines for the most part had little capacity to provide much more power than half total power required.  They would require generous areas for landing and takeoff when conducting operations where manoeuvre space around obstacles (buildings, etc...) was less than certain minimum criteria.  I'm not certain, but I understood from friends who have flown that particular aircraft that the S-76's OEI (one engine inoperative) performance was one of the factors that led to Ornge's replacement of it with the AW139.  This OEI performance would be in contrast to a helicopter that in many cases could not only remain hovering out of ground effect (one of the most power intensive manoeuvres for helos), but still carry cargo on its hook, for example (Chinook).

In the end, there are numerous single engine helicopters out the that have a proven reliability level that would support.LE operations, but EPS' operational demands (I don't know this myself) may make such an aircraft either impractical or unacceptable.  On thing is for certain, the cost of maintenance and operations climbs significantly for multi-engine helicopters.

Regards,
G2G


----------

