# Bringing back "Double Dipping"



## Ignatius (2 Jul 2019)

Any new word that they might be bringing back double dipping for the Reserves? I've been hearing some strong talk from my WO and a Capt at Admin OR that it is a good possibility, but have anyone on here heard anything more concrete or good source talk as well? I hate to use the words "double dipping" as I would rather say "Contract extensions" instead. Bring this back would be great for us Class A Reservists who can only work up to 6 months full time on a Class B top up and it would be also highly beneficial for someone like myself who is working two jobs including Class A Reserve. If this policy was brought back, I would be easily able to give up my main civilian job and just work Class B, and making life and work more normalcy. Anyways, just using myself as a good example on how better it would be for double dipping again as a Class A Reservist and wondering if anyone heard of it coming back?

Thank you


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## brihard (2 Jul 2019)

Ignatius said:
			
		

> Any new word that they might be bringing back double dipping for the Reserves? I've been hearing some strong talk from my WO and a Capt at Admin OR that it is a good possibility, but have anyone on here heard anything more concrete or good source talk as well? I hate to use the words "double dipping" as I would rather say "Contract extensions" instead. Bring this back would be great for us Class A Reservists who can only work up to 6 months full time on a Class B top up and it would be also highly beneficial for someone like myself who is working two jobs including Class A Reserve. If this policy was brought back, I would be easily able to give up my main civilian job and just work Class B, and making life and work more normalcy. Anyways, just using myself as a good example on how better it would be for double dipping again as a Class A Reservist and wondering if anyone heard of it coming back?
> 
> Thank you



Do you mean ‘double dipping’ as in you have a reg Force pension and want to be able to work Cl B while drawing it? That one’s already been beaten to death. If you want financial certainty from the military, don’t be counting on that from being a reservist. It sounds like perhaps civilian life might not have been your best financial move.

But no, I’ve heard absolutely nothing about a move back to allowing ‘double dipping’ by RegF annuitants who then go PRes.


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## mariomike (2 Jul 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Do you mean ‘double dipping’ as in you have a reg Force pension and want to be able to work Cl B while drawing it? That one’s already been beaten to death.



For reference to the discussion,

"Double Dippers" Mega Thread  
https://navy.ca/forums/threads/87805.50


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## SupersonicMax (2 Jul 2019)

Here’s a novel idea.  We are losing pensionable people to the private sector because people want to be able to draw a pension while working at a salary that was equivalent to what they were making in the military, effectively adding 50+% to their gross income.  Why not allow this while working in thr Reg Force?  Allow someone to draw a pension when they become eligible but allow them the keep serving.  They would stop contributing to their pension plan and their pension would stop increasing.  That would help retain experience people, save training money while not increasing the net salary cost.


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## Remius (2 Jul 2019)

All I have heard is RUMINT. 

That maybe they might be modifying the terms in which an annuitant can continue to work from what it currently is but it is very doubtful that there will be a return to the golden age of double dipping.

They may have been talking about reserve annuitants going back to work for the reserves (I know of one case but not sure of all of the details).

link to a cbc article on this (from 2017):  

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/military-reserves-double-dipping-1.4234285

If the Liberals stay in power maybe we'll see a change.  But if not who knows.  

A link to the defence policy from that year:  

http://dgpaapp.forces.gc.ca/en/canada-defence-policy/docs/canada-defence-policy-report.pdf


Not sure how they would avoid incentivising double dipping especially now that the pay gap is closer between reg and res.


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## Humphrey Bogart (2 Jul 2019)

I've never really understood what the issue was with double dipping?  

You've got a person who has been in the Regular Force for 20+ years, they probably have some skills, you let them in to the Reserve Force and they can continue to give to the organization.

It would certainly be useful for specific trades .... like pilots


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## Remius (2 Jul 2019)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> I've never really understood what the issue was with double dipping?
> 
> You've got a person who has been in the Regular Force for 20+ years, they probably have some skills, you let them in to the Reserve Force and they can continue to give to the organization.
> 
> It would certainly be useful for specific trades .... like pilots



Double dipping itself wasn't the issue.  It was how it was being abused that was.


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## SupersonicMax (2 Jul 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Double dipping itself wasn't the issue.  It was how it was being abused that was.



How can this be abused?  You earn a pension and keep contributing as someone with experience in your trade.  Win-win, no?


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## Humphrey Bogart (2 Jul 2019)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> How can this be abused?  You earn a pension and keep contributing as someone with experience in your trade.  Win-win, no?



I'm with you on this one Max. If you do your twenty five years and retire and are entitled to an immediate annuity, you have every right to collect that annuity.

If the CAF then wants to re-employ you in some capacity as a Reservist, you should be allowed to collect that pension you've rightfully earned and continue to be paid while opting out of any further pension contributions.


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## dapaterson (2 Jul 2019)

There is one CAF.  I question the mental acrobatics required to say "I am a retired member of the CAF drawing a pension.  I therefore want to be a full-time member of the CAF while also a retired member of the CAF at the same time."


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## ballz (2 Jul 2019)

A pension is just a financial benefit. I don't see the mental gymnastics in saying "I want to exercise this financial benefit now, at 50%, instead of 10 years from now, at 70%."

Viewing this as "you can't be collecting your pension and drawing a salary too" is basically like factoring in sunk costs into your decisions going forward. For the employer, the pension is gone, it's sunk costs. The contributions have been made, the value is set, etc. If anything, having someone switch from Reg Force to Class B to do the same job was saving the government incremental costs.

That's not mental gymnastics. I think the idea is that a pension, which is simply an annuity, needs to be tied to "retirement" is an outdated / narrow definition, and limiting yourself to that causes you to make bad decisions like factoring in sunk costs.


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## Humphrey Bogart (2 Jul 2019)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> There is one CAF.  I question the mental acrobatics required to say "I am a retired member of the CAF drawing a pension.  I therefore want to be a full-time member of the CAF while also a retired member of the CAF at the same time."



But there isn't one CAF, if there were, I would have only one MPRR.  The whole "one CAF" thing is one of those slogans that only exists when it is convenient.

I digress though and I think ballz hit the nail on the head with this:



			
				ballz said:
			
		

> A pension is just a financial benefit. I don't see the mental gymnastics in saying "I want to exercise this financial benefit now, at 50%, instead of 10 years from now, at 70%."
> 
> Viewing this as "you can't be collecting your pension and drawing a salary too" is basically like factoring in sunk costs into your decisions going forward. For the employer, the pension is gone, it's sunk costs. The contributions have been made, the value is set, etc. If anything, having someone switch from Reg Force to Class B to do the same job was saving the government incremental costs.
> 
> That's not mental gymnastics. I think the idea is that a pension, which is simply an annuity, needs to be tied to "retirement" is an outdated / narrow definition, and limiting yourself to that causes you to make bad decisions like factoring in sunk costs.



I like how my wife's pension works, she works for the Toronto Dominion Bank and has the option of opting in to a pension plan which she has.  TD has an excellent Defined Benefit Pension Plan that you can opt in to or opt out of at your discretion, you can also contribute money in to an RRSP or Non-registered RSP where a portion of your paycheque goes towards buying shares in TD.  TD will match your contribution 100% on the first $250 dollars and 50% up to a maximum of $2000.  You buy $4250.00 a year in shares of TD, TD will give you an additional $2250.00 in shares for free.  You can opt out of these at any time, collect your money and leave, it is your choice.  You later come back to TD and/or want to opt back in?  No problem.  It is your money after all.

That's the problem with the CAF Pension, it is treated like it isn't our money.  The only reason there is even money in a fund is because I took a hit on my salary and contributed to a fund.  If I had a choice to opt out of contributing to a pension for after 25 years, collecting the annuity right then and there while continuing to work for another 18 years until CRA 60, I would.


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## Navy_Pete (2 Jul 2019)

I don't get the issue people have with this.  Taking off the uniform all together, drawing the annuity, and working somewhere else is fine, but dropping down to a Class B (on a term contract with a loss of some benefits and career advancement) and drawing an annuity is somehow wrong?

I don't think the CAF is out of pocket here, and probably some cost savings if they are no longer contributing to a pension for an employee, so if it works for the member, and fills a need the CAF has, who cares?  If we can't fill it with a RegF body, and you don't have a PRes doing it, then your next option is contractor, and that probably costs us a lot more than a double dipping CAF member.

People creating BS PRes positions for their buddy is a separate problem, but maybe you should punish the offenders instead of killing the system?  :dunno:

I'm sure we spend far more in manpower in the travel claims process now than was ever lost to abuse.  If there were actual punishments for the individuals(ie losing section 32/34 authority leading to loss of ability to do position) then this would maybe not be an issue requiring punishment of the masses.


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## Halifax Tar (2 Jul 2019)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> I don't get the issue people have with this.  Taking off the uniform all together, drawing the annuity, and working somewhere else is fine, but dropping down to a Class B (on a term contract with a loss of some benefits and career advancement) and drawing an annuity is somehow wrong?
> 
> I don't think the CAF is out of pocket here, and probably some cost savings if they are no longer contributing to a pension for an employee, so if it works for the member, and fills a need the CAF has, who cares?  If we can't fill it with a RegF body, and you don't have a PRes doing it, then your next option is contractor, and that probably costs us a lot more than a double dipping CAF member.
> 
> ...



(1) We do this all the time.  I am surprised a program like IR has lasted this long.  Look at beers at sea. 

(2) Holding people accountable ?  Heresy.


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## TCM621 (2 Jul 2019)

The issue, IIRC, had little to do with drawing a pension and a salary at the same time. It was senior people creating class B jobs for them to retire into doing the same thing they did as Reg force. Basically, the government would end up paying 1.5x for the same person.

Just like IR/SE, just like the retirement move, just like so many other things, a relative few (predominantly senior officers and MWO/CWO) were abusing the system, typically in Ottawa or other headquarters. So rather than deal with the root causes, they changed the benefits which ended up hurting the troops and line units. I lost 1000 dollars a month when the SE benefits changed. That isn't to much to a Col or a CWO but it was a lot for me.


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## Remius (2 Jul 2019)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> How can this be abused?  You earn a pension and keep contributing as someone with experience in your trade.  Win-win, no?



In theory yes. In practice no.

Many people would create class b positions for early retirement.  Convert reg force positions then even worse then transfer that to a civy position when they hit CRA.  And in many instances they didn’t really bring their experience to anything.   A pilot on class B doing staff work at NDHQ for ADM IM  isn’t really helping our pilot shortage is it...


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## McG (2 Jul 2019)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> But there isn't one CAF, if there were, I would have only one MPRR.


You should have had only on MPRR since the role out of Guardian.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (2 Jul 2019)

How about we don't need more old guys hanging around collecting dust?
In fast and hard,  serve fast and hard,  get out a little slower and softer,  but still fast enough for a second civilian job.

And don't give me the "CF can't fill the position" BS.  Yes they could if someone would just fix the whole damn thing. ...


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## Stoker (2 Jul 2019)

Did reserves for 30 years, most of it full time B and C and some class A. Was offered a CT at rank with spec pay, signing bonus and took it recently The selling point was the ability to go back to the res when retired and do Class A for a few years until CRA. Could never understand why in the res when I retired I couldn't do Class A like a reg could. So much talent wasted.  Having dealt over the years with many "double dippers" I hated it when they took their break at Christmas or whenever it was convenient to them and everyone had to pick up the slack for them for duty watches and the like. I'm all for the skills they bring to the table but not at the expense of a reserve that did it for years.


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## Loachman (2 Jul 2019)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> How about we don't need more old guys hanging around collecting dust?
> In fast and hard,  serve fast and hard,  get out a little slower and softer,  but still fast enough for a second civilian job.
> 
> And don't give me the "CF can't fill the position" BS.  Yes they could if someone would just fix the whole damn thing. ...



"They"  have been "trying" to fix the Pilot shortage for over two decades now, and it's definitely not getting better.

My position still has not been filled since I was punted over three years ago, which is why I continue to sit in the same desk doing the same job but now in clothes that I purchase myself. I am not exactly just "hanging around collecting dust".

The alternative would have been to take an experienced* Captain out of a cockpit, and, given the demands upon our community, we cannot afford to do that. I'd still be collecting my pension either way, but wasting an uncommon and still-useful set of knowledge and experience.

Nor can I see the current situation changing for, well, nobody has a clue, regarding either solutions or duration.

And the Pilot occupation is not the only one short of people and experience.

Filling vacant positions, where practicable, with Class B Reservists, ex-Military Public Servants, or ex-Military Contractors makes a lot of sense.

* A relative term, and generally way lower than it should be.


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## Remius (2 Jul 2019)

Loachman said:
			
		

> Filling vacant positions, where practicable, with Class B Reservists, ex-Military Public Servants, or ex-Military Contractors makes a lot of sense



Yes when there is a plan to actually staff those vacant positions.  More often than not vacant position become 10-15 year long term retirement class bs.  The addiction is real.


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## mariomike (2 Jul 2019)

Interesting discussion. 

Pension doesn't get any better than 70%. No matter who ( CAF or OMERS ) is paying it.

I GTFO the day mine maxed out.  

Never worked again. Never will.


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## Halifax Tar (2 Jul 2019)

What about the COATs Program ?  Still Class B and can collect your pension for years and years and years.....


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## RocketRichard (2 Jul 2019)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> What about the COATs Program ?  Still Class B and can collect tour pension for years and years and years.....


‘tour pension’. What is that? COATS can’t go on tour can they?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kev994 (2 Jul 2019)

Loachman said:
			
		

> "They"  have been "trying" to fix the Pilot shortage for over two decades now, and it's definitely not getting better.


They’re not trying very hard. The Americans are offering $280,000 retention bonuses. We’re suggesting people improve their work/life balance but not actually changing anything.


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## Stoker (2 Jul 2019)

RomeoJuliet said:
			
		

> ‘tour pension’. What is that? COATS can’t go on tour can they?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I suspect he means your pension.


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## Loachman (2 Jul 2019)

kev994 said:
			
		

> They’re not trying very hard. The Americans are offering $280,000 retention bonuses. We’re suggesting people improve their work/life balance but not actually changing anything.



"Offering" is easy. How many are taking?

It depends what conditions are attached to the big, fat, juicy, wigggling worm on the hook. It depends upon the tax hit incurred.

The last time the CF tried that, a little over two decades ago, there were few takers - partially due to the five years' obligatory service that came with it, with no possibility of paying the money back and bailing should one be suddenly posted to CFB Buttfucknowhere for the full five years, and partially due to the fact that one third would be paid on or close to the date of acceptance, and the remaining two thirds would be paid on the following first and second anniversaries rather than speading it out over the full five years, meaning that more of it would be taxed back.

I was eligible for the full max $75000.00, yet was right on pension eligibility's doorstep with one foot lifting and was not willing to give up that freedom for that price (actually the dual prices of money and loss of freedom and security).

Any measures taken have to be sincere rather than sneaky and directed towards actually solving problems and dissatisfiers. I'm sure that there are a few twisted souls who love spending the bulk of their careers in Cold Lake, and it would be expensive to build a new base in a more civilised location and reducing Cold Lake to an exercise deployment base, but that might reduce the bleeding. Posting bonuses and improving opportunities for dependents might be a more palatable (to the CF and government) alternative option. Buying an actual CF18 replacement instead of used cast-offs that will just sit in hangars (or worse, have a lot of money and effort invested in them while already-operational CF aircraft get pushed aside instead) because we lack the people to maintain the additional numbers might help as well. 

Nothing boosts morale like a government that displays its respect to irreplaceable people who've had a lot of time, effort, and money invested in them and who are, therefore, attractive to employers who pay more and provide genuinely better working conditions in nicer places.

I got a taste of that during the two Police helicopter trials that I flew; we went in for our ten-hour shifts, and I checked weather, planned each of the three two-hour patrols per shift, and flew them. The environments were challenging, but that was fine. The money was pretty good - $325.00 per shift in 1999 and 2000. No nitnoid secondary duties was delightful beyond imagination.

I have no faith that any of the measures that will be implemented will have any positive effect. I have no faith that anybody in a position to really change anything actually understands - or maybe _*can*_ understand - the reasons why people leave when they do. I have no faith that the government would permit any potentially effective measures to be implemented, even if the CF endorsed them, mainly due to cost (and "precedent"), even if the cost was lower than the cost of the cumulative lost investments. I have no faith that the investments put into people are seen as investments.

"Our people are our biggest asset" is easy to say. Acting as if that was taken seriously...?


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## Loachman (2 Jul 2019)

A couple more suggestions:

Instead of one huge, heavily-taxed lump with an attached multi-year set of manacles and legirons, offer annual, renewable amounts that would be paid out as an allowance with one's regular pay. This would reduce the likelihood of somebody being scrwed by posting, reduce the taxation loss, and might become addictive. It should also reduce the double whammy of losing one's aircrew allowance when being posted to an undesirable ground job. It would be scalable, of course, based upon the recipient's experience level, and should probably be boosted each anniversary.

Make a real effort to provide useful and satisfying employment to dependents in isolated environments. That was done for dependents in Germany - there were teachers, medical people, secretaries, and others with useful skills, and many were employed in the Canex (which was a huge operation there) and in security functions (initially gate pass-checkers, but were actually armed with pistols in the final few years). That may be happening now in places like Cold Lake, but I do not know. Provincial licences, for dependents who hold such, should be made transferrable between provinces as well.


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## RocketRichard (2 Jul 2019)

Chief Engineer said:
			
		

> I suspect he means your pension.


Ha ha. Typo got me 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SupersonicMax (3 Jul 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> In theory yes. In practice no.
> 
> Many people would create class b positions for early retirement.  Convert reg force positions then even worse then transfer that to a civy position when they hit CRA.  And in many instances they didn’t really bring their experience to anything.   A pilot on class B doing staff work at NDHQ for ADM IM  isn’t really helping our pilot shortage is it...



Here’s a mind-blowing idea:  why not allow people to draw a pension AND keep working in their position in the Reg Force?  Instead, people draw a pension, CAF loses the experience and people make 1.5X their CAF salary.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (3 Jul 2019)

And fresh new young blood can get a job.....the way it should be.


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## Blackadder1916 (3 Jul 2019)

Loachman said:
			
		

> . . . and in security functions (initially gate pass-checkers, but were actually armed with pistols in the final few years).  . . .



The arming of the civilian security guards in CFE didn't last long.  Due to increasing terrorist threat they were issued pistols (depending on their job) beginning in 1987 and then in 1990 (or maybe 1991) the weapons were withdrawn after a few incidents of unsafe handling; one in particular being an armed stand-off between two guards with drawn weapons in the gatehouse at the airfield having a heated dispute about adulterous relationships with spouses.

https://www.cmpa-apmc.org/uploads/7/1/9/7/71970193/gate-guard-pistol-cropped-small_orig.jpg   (_there is no suggestion that the individual in the photo had any involvement in such unsafe handling episodes and simply provided as an illustration of the arming of civilian guards_)


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## SupersonicMax (3 Jul 2019)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> And fresh new young blood can get a job.....the way it should be.



We have an experience problem (and it will get worse as the Baby Boomers are forced to retirement) and you want to have an influx of new people?  Our experience/new ratio is 1:2.5 now when it should be 2:1.  You want more experienced people to get out to be replaced by innexperience?!

We're setting up initiatives to bring those experienced people back in.  This would be a good way to keep people in and bring some back in at 0 cost to DND or the government.  In fact, we would save on the training bill.


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## Loachman (3 Jul 2019)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> And fresh new young blood can get a job.....the way it should be.



No, it can't. It takes seven plus years to get somebody through RMC and the flying training programme, and then several years on Squadron to become useful, and then a few more years to qualify as a Flight Commander, more to become a Squadron Operations Officer, several courses of various duration. Those are the people that we are losing.

Time, effort, and many hours of expensive flight time are required. Driving them out wastes all of that. Squadrons cannot function adequately on "young blood" alone.

And inexperience often leads to tragic and even more expensive consequences.

I've seen that before, too many times. And I was almost one, myself.

No civilian company could survive by what we are currently doing. We might not, either.


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## Loachman (3 Jul 2019)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> The arming of the civilian security guards in CFE didn't last long.  Due to increasing terrorist threat they were issued pistols (depending on their job) beginning in 1987 and then in 1990 (or maybe 1991) the weapons were withdrawn after a few incidents of unsafe handling; one in particular being an armed stand-off between two guards with drawn weapons in the gatehouse at the airfield having a heated dispute about adulterous relationships with spouses.



The soldiers went back into the steel guard boxes for a bit in early 1988, I think it was, when a couple of disgruntled Amoured guys cut a hole in the external fence from the inside and blew up and burnt some of their own vehicles and a load of full jerry cans, then vanished again once it was realized that the fence hole was just a diversion.

None of us thought that arming senior daughters was a good idea. Would they shoot when they should? Would they shoot when they shouldn't? And nobody was covering them when they stuck their heads in through car windows to check I cards in the back seat.

The SIU commander told me once that nobody would crash the gate anyway. They'd have complete uniforms, from any NATO nation, gathered piece-by-piece, over many years, along with I cards.

But the Security Guard course that Commissionaires take is done online within a thirty-day limit, followed by a course test, a provincial test, and an online licence application, and no armament is carried.


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## Remius (3 Jul 2019)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Here’s a mind-blowing idea:  why not allow people to draw a pension AND keep working in their position in the Reg Force?  Instead, people draw a pension, CAF loses the experience and people make 1.5X their CAF salary.



I think the RCMP reserve program is somewhat similar to what you are proposing.  Retired officers can serve three year contracts and still draw their pensions.  The difference is that the RCMP has a cap on how many reserve officers it can employ and they use them where they need them, ie isolated posts and hard to fill postings.   I am not 100% sure about the inn and outs though so I am happy to be corrected.


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## mariomike (3 Jul 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> The difference is that the RCMP has a cap on how many reserve officers it can employ and they use them where they need them, ie isolated posts and hard to fill postings.





> RCMP expands Reserve Program for former police officers
> http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/news/2018/rcmp-expands-reserve-program-former-police-officers
> Treasury Board has authorized the RCMP to expand this essential program from 400 to 1200 reservists.



Looks like they expanded the "cap" on part-timers. 

"Hard to fill postings" are not unique to the RCMP. That's where members with low seniority get sent. Most are happy just to be on the job.



> The RCMP will also begin accepting applications from former police officers of other Canadian law enforcement agencies in the near future.



So, if you retire from the RCMP, you are not guaranteed a part-time job. They could choose a retired member from another service ahead of you.

I can't imagine the Toronto Police Association ever allowing retired RCMP officers in as part-timers. Or, even their own retired members for that matter.


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## SupersonicMax (3 Jul 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> I think the RCMP reserve program is somewhat similar to what you are proposing.  Retired officers can serve three year contracts and still draw their pensions.  The difference is that the RCMP has a cap on how many reserve officers it can employ and they use them where they need them, ie isolated posts and hard to fill postings.   I am not 100% sure about the inn and outs though so I am happy to be corrected.



Except with what I propose, you’d serve in the Ref Force vs the Res Force.


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## Lumber (3 Jul 2019)

Loachman said:
			
		

> No, it can't. It takes seven plus years to get somebody through RMC and the flying training programme, and then several years on Squadron to become useful, and then a few more years to qualify as a Flight Commander, more to become a Squadron Operations Officer, several courses of various duration. Those are the people that we are losing.
> 
> Time, effort, and many hours of expensive flight time are required. Driving them out wastes all of that. Squadrons cannot function adequately on "young blood" alone.
> 
> ...



Just what jobs are people getting out for? I'm honestly curious. I talked about getting out with my wife so that we could have some more stability, but financial it just made no sense.

Between the pay, the pension, the medical and dental benefits, the 7 weeks of vacation a year (that only counting stat holidays and short days at Christmas. all other stats and short days just add to this 7 weeks), we could not come up with any other job that I would be eligible for that would come anywhere close to comparing to the pay and benefit package that the CAF offers.

So, if you guys have any examples of jobs for which people left the CAF, and who provided comparable, or better, compensation... feel free to let me know!


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## Remius (3 Jul 2019)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Except with what I propose, you’d serve in the Ref Force vs the Res Force.



Most annuitants at the time were for all intents and purposes serving in Reg force establishments and contributed very little to the actual reserve force.  Even though they were technically reservists. 

So under your proposal would those same people be ok with being posted where they were needed most?  A lot of people I know got out, not because of pay, it was lifestyle and where they were going to be posted next.  if they can take their pension and make more civy side and live a better lifestyle why would they opt for that?


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## Good2Golf (3 Jul 2019)

I got out when my "fulfillment/fun factor" curve crossed below my "QOL/QOWL actual/potential" curve, and never for a moment came close to even considering a double-dip scenario, but...if I had...

THIS
    |
    V 



			
				ballz said:
			
		

> A pension is just a financial benefit. I don't see the mental gymnastics in saying "I want to exercise this financial benefit now, at 50%, instead of 10 years from now, at 70%."
> 
> Viewing this as "you can't be collecting your pension and drawing a salary too" is basically like factoring in sunk costs into your decisions going forward. For the employer, the pension is gone, it's sunk costs. The contributions have been made, the value is set, etc. If anything, having someone switch from Reg Force to Class B to do the same job was saving the government incremental costs.
> 
> That's not mental gymnastics. I think the idea is that a pension, which is simply an annuity, needs to be tied to "retirement" is an outdated / narrow definition, and limiting yourself to that causes you to make bad decisions like factoring in sunk costs.



From the CAF/DND point of view, (not GoC), the Vote 1 allocation from which pers costs are drawn is entirely separate from the CFSA proceeds to a CAF pensioner.

To tie them together is emotional, not fudiciary - it is no more valid to make such a case than it is for a post-release employer adjust an ex-CAF member's civilian salary downwards by an amount equal to their pension - which is what the "get back in, stop drawing pension" amounts to.

Even an awesome shiny "CFOne" card doesn't make the "we are one" mantra true...

:2c:

Regards
G2G


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## SupersonicMax (3 Jul 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Most annuitants at the time were for all intents and purposes serving in Reg force establishments and contributed very little to the actual reserve force.  Even though they were technically reservists.
> 
> So under your proposal would those same people be ok with being posted where they were needed most?  A lot of people I know got out, not because of pay, it was lifestyle and where they were going to be posted next.  if they can take their pension and make more civy side and live a better lifestyle why would they opt for that?



I bet that for the job security and job levels they get, they would.  To be a pilot on the civy side normally means a 75% reduction in salary for the first 3 years before making an equal amount to the military.


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## kev994 (3 Jul 2019)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> To be a pilot on the civy side normally means a 75% reduction in salary for the first 3 years before making an equal amount to the military.


Ive been told that you can make up for that if you take overtime


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## SupersonicMax (3 Jul 2019)

kev994 said:
			
		

> Ive been told that you can make up for that if you take overtime



Sure but then you have the same QOL issues you had in the military for the same pay.


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## gcclarke (3 Jul 2019)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Sure but then you have the same QOL issues you had in the military for the same pay.



You might have some QOL issues, but the same ones? A bit of overtime doesn't, for example, force you to live in Cold Lake, it doesn't cause you to move so often that your spouse is unable to obtain decent employment, it doesn't waste your time with unnecessary secondary duties, etc. It doesn't mean that you're stuck driving a desk somewhere instead of actually flying like you joined to do.


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## mariomike (3 Jul 2019)

Lumber said:
			
		

> So, if you guys have any examples of jobs for which people left the CAF, and who provided comparable, or better, compensation... feel free to let me know!



This is from 2016,
https://army.ca/forums/threads/105151/post-1482454.html#msg1482454
"These are the top earners. Your earnings may vary."

Your schedule ( twenty 12-hour shifts every six weeks ), station and partner are not subject to change. 

When vacancies occur, they are posted. You can bid via the Senior Qualified Process.

100% City paid health, dental, life insurance ( 2 X salary ), out-of-province / out of Canada travel insurance, and a Convalescent Care Plan. From the day you hire on until age 65. For active and retired members. No deductible.

This ends at age 65. 

From age 65 to 75 you receive a $3,500 annual Health Care Spending Account ( HCSA ). 

Your life insurance is reduced to a $5,000. lifetime policy. You have 60 days to maintain the old policy, no questions asked.  But, after age 65, YOU pay the premiums. 

This is the pension plan for Police, Firefighters and Paramedics,
https://omers.com/Employers/Administering-the-Plan/Supplemental-Plan
It was established in 2008. I retired in 2009, so it does not apply to me.

My job was the most fun I ever had in my life. A post-retirement job would be a let down. 



			
				gcclarke said:
			
		

> , for example, force you to live in Cold Lake,



I keep reading that about Cold Lake. My sister loves it so much she made it her "forever home".


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## Lumber (3 Jul 2019)

mariomike said:
			
		

> This is from 2016,
> https://army.ca/forums/threads/105151/post-1482454.html#msg1482454
> "These are the top earners. Your earnings may vary."
> 
> ...



Hmmm... I'll have to look into Halifax and see what the salary and benefits are like here.


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## Lumber (3 Jul 2019)

mariomike said:
			
		

> This is from 2016,
> https://army.ca/forums/threads/105151/post-1482454.html#msg1482454
> "These are the top earners. Your earnings may vary."



Well the earnings must vary a lot, or else I'm missing something. I just looked at the salary (Wage) for paramedics in Halifax, and the average wage is roughly $30 an hour..

So I look up Toronto salaries, and it says that the average salary is between $35 and $40 per hour, and some sites are saying $50k is average.

Where does the extra almost $100K come from? There can't possibly be THAT much overtime?


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## mariomike (3 Jul 2019)

Lumber said:
			
		

> Well the earnings must vary a lot, or else I'm missing something. I just looked at the salary (Wage) for paramedics in Halifax, and the average wage is roughly $30 an hour..
> 
> So I look up Toronto salaries, and it says that the average salary is between $35 and $40 per hour, and some sites are saying $50k is average.
> 
> Where does the extra almost $100K come from? There can't possibly be THAT much overtime?



That's directly from the Ontario 2016 Public Sector Salary Disclosure Act,
https://www.ontario.ca/page/public-sector-salary-disclosure-2016-all-sectors-and-seconded-employees

Does not include Nova Scotia.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (3 Jul 2019)

That is probably a grievance settlement...


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## mariomike (3 Jul 2019)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> That is probably a grievance settlement...



This is Salary Disclosure from 2011 to 2016 inclusive. ( Missed 2015 ).
https://army.ca/forums/threads/105151.0

From the Ontario Public sector salary disclosure for 1996 to 2018,
https://www.ontario.ca/page/public-sector-salary-disclosure

Aka The Ontario Sunshine List.

Sometimes easier to pay the OT than hire more people ( benefits etc. )


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## brihard (3 Jul 2019)

Lumber said:
			
		

> Just what jobs are people getting out for? I'm honestly curious. I talked about getting out with my wife so that we could have some more stability, but financial it just made no sense.
> 
> Between the pay, the pension, the medical and dental benefits, the 7 weeks of vacation a year (that only counting stat holidays and short days at Christmas. all other stats and short days just add to this 7 weeks), we could not come up with any other job that I would be eligible for that would come anywhere close to comparing to the pay and benefit package that the CAF offers.
> 
> So, if you guys have any examples of jobs for which people left the CAF, and who provided comparable, or better, compensation... feel free to let me know!



I have a friend who was a major in the RCAF. He was told his next posting was to Ottawa. He sat back, through about it, and got out to join the RCMP. That was at 14 years of service. While the pay isn't up to the same level (pretty hard to find a public sector job that beats the pay or a Major), the pension is transferable, and the compensation is still pretty good. Anyone in the junior or non commissioned ranks who hops over to policing is going to be coming out well ahead, particularly once overtime is added. The pension and other benefits are generally quite good too. There isn't as much vacation, at least not directly, but I'd bet working hours don't work out too poorly in comparison, particularly given how the CAF willl randomly send you to work full out for a couple months straight of long days. Shift schedules generally mean longer work days, and more days off- a police officer working shifts somewhere will normally be working roughly half the days depending on shift length. It'll generally be around 2000 hours a year of scheduled work before any overtime.


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## mariomike (3 Jul 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Anyone in the junior or non commissioned ranks who hops over to policing is going to be coming out well ahead, particularly once overtime is added.



And Paid Duty.

Hourly rates,

Police Constables (all classifications) $73.00 (minimum $219.00) 
Sergeants (when in charge of 4 or more police officers) $83.00 (minimum $249.00) 
Staff Sergeant (when in charge of 10 or more police officers) $92.00 (minimum $276.00) 
http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/paidduty/rates.php



			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> It'll generally be around 2000 hours a year of scheduled work before any overtime.



Toronto police and paramedics work 40 hours a week. Firefighters work 42.

Police work a 10-hour day, 10-hour evening, and eight-hour night shift.

Paramedics work 12-hour shifts.

Firefighters work 24-hour shifts.

According to the Sunshine List, the police chief made, $344,397.98

One Toronto constable earned $289,000

19 other constables earned more than $200,000


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## Haggis (3 Jul 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Anyone in the junior or non commissioned ranks who hops over to policing is going to be coming out well ahead, particularly once overtime is added.



Don't forget stat holiday pay, shift premiums, short shift changes, weekend premiums etc.  That adds up pretty fast.


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## brihard (3 Jul 2019)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Don't forget stat holiday pay, shift premiums, short shift changes, weekend premiums etc.  That adds up pretty fast.



Be nice, we're not trying to make anyone cry here.


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## OldSolduer (3 Jul 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Be nice, we're not trying to make anyone cry here.



One of the best days of my life was when the WPS politely declined to employ me. Money ain’t everything.


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## Humphrey Bogart (3 Jul 2019)

Lumber said:
			
		

> Just what jobs are people getting out for? I'm honestly curious. I talked about getting out with my wife so that we could have some more stability, but financial it just made no sense.
> 
> Between the pay, the pension, the medical and dental benefits, the 7 weeks of vacation a year (that only counting stat holidays and short days at Christmas. all other stats and short days just add to this 7 weeks), we could not come up with any other job that I would be eligible for that would come anywhere close to comparing to the pay and benefit package that the CAF offers.
> 
> So, if you guys have any examples of jobs for which people left the CAF, and who provided comparable, or better, compensation... feel free to let me know!



As an Officer, it really doesn't make that much sense money-wise, unless you can land a job in the private sector in management.  

Best way to do this is to get AOC or ORO and combine it with an MBA.  You could also further enhance yourself by working a crappy Project Management job in Ottawa at a place like DGLEPM, DGNEPM, DLR, etc.

Once you do that, you've got everything you need to role over to a Bank, Bay Street, Industry, etc.

Yah, some private sectors don't pay the same salary off the bat but there are other incentives.  My spouse works in banking and while we get pats on the back for jobs well done, her Bank gives its employees money, quarterly.

Oh and management often takes there performance bonuses in Stocks.  Imagine getting given shares in a bank like TD, $77 bucks a pop right now and 74 cents in dividends quarterly per share.  That can add up very quickly!


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## Infanteer (4 Jul 2019)

Loachman said:
			
		

> No, it can't. It takes seven plus years to get somebody through RMC and the flying training programme,



That's probably one of the problems there.  Seven years in the training pipeline to true OFP.


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## mariomike (4 Jul 2019)

Lumber said:
			
		

> So I look up Toronto salaries, and it says that the average salary is between $35 and $40 per hour, and some sites are saying $50k is average.



You can read the rates of pay in the collective agreement - posted below.

This is the collective agreement: 1 Jan., 2012 - 31 Dec., 2015
https://local416.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Toronto_CivicEmployees_outside1.pdf

Paramedic $43.19

Paramedic Field Training Officer ( FTO ) $52.11

You are paid a minimum of 40 hours each and every week.

That is up to the last day of 2015.

To calculate the rates after 2015, you must use this formula,

MEMORANDUM OF SETTLEMENT
https://local416.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/City-of-Toronto-Local-416-FINAL-Memorandum-of-Settlement-Appendix-A-B-February-19-2016.pdf
January 1, 2016, to December 31, 2019

The collective agreement only applies to union jobs. ie: Paramedic and FTO.

For Supervisor, Commander, Deputy Chief, Chief you can only find their salaries in the Ontario public sector salary disclosure aka the sunshine list.

That's base salary only. The collective agreement explains the various items that add to it. ( Overtime, Call-Back and Standby, Superior Duties, Stat Holidays, Shift premium, Meal Allowance, Paid Duty, Early Calls and Late Calls, Quarantine, Coroner's Court, Special Ops premiums, etc. )

Hope that helps.


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## Lumber (4 Jul 2019)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> That's probably one of the problems there.  Seven years in the training pipeline to true OFP.



Not to mention that sometimes the first posting for a pilot isn't to an operational squadron, but right back to the school. It actually makes sense from a training perspective to post experts on the Harvard back to the school to train others on the Harvard, because if they go learn to fly Cyclones for 6 years, they might be a bit rusty on the Harvard if they don't go back as instructors until after a few years on an operational air frame.

That being said, it still seems odd. You join the CAF as a pilot to participate in missions and be operational, but instead you spend 4 years at RMC, 3 years learning to be a pilot, then get posted back to the school as an instructor for 3 years. So, from the time you sign up to the time you actually start actually get out of the training system to doing core business could be 10 years. :S

Actually, I had a friend who was a pilot, failed out of being a pilot after numerous attempts, spent a while waiting for a re-muster to go through, finally got a re-muster to ACSO, and by the time he finished training as an ACSO and was OFP, it had been almost 12 years since he joined the CAF. 12 years from signing up to OFP. Yikes.


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## Humphrey Bogart (4 Jul 2019)

Lumber said:
			
		

> Not to mention that sometimes the first posting for a pilot isn't to an operational squadron, but right back to the school. It actually makes sense from a training perspective to post experts on the Harvard back to the school to train others on the Harvard, because if they go learn to fly Cyclones for 6 years, they might be a bit rusty on the Harvard if they don't go back as instructors until after a few years on an operational air frame.
> 
> That being said, it still seems odd. You join the CAF as a pilot to participate in missions and be operational, but instead you spend 4 years at RMC, 3 years learning to be a pilot, then get posted back to the school as an instructor for 3 years. So, from the time you sign up to the time you actually start actually get out of the training system to doing core business could be 10 years. :S
> 
> Actually, I had a friend who was a pilot, failed out of being a pilot after numerous attempts, spent a while waiting for a re-muster to go through, finally got a re-muster to ACSO, and by the time he finished training as an ACSO and was OFP, it had been almost 12 years since he joined the CAF. 12 years from signing up to OFP. Yikes.



Thinking about m. own OT for a bit:

It will have taken me over two years to finish three phases of training in NWO by the time I'm done Phase 4, assuming I don't fail that course. I'm lining up to go Submarines so there is another year or two of training not to mention I won't be NOPQ qualified for another what, two years?  So four or five years to become remotely useful  8)

I'll then have four or five years left at which point I can retire.  As the highest paid Subbie in the CAF, it's a good deal!

I'll reserve judgement on the Navy training until I'm done Phase 4 but from my perspective, it could be shorter, how much more is up for debate.  What could also happen is better synchronization of courses.  Eight month wait between Phase 3 and 4 as ours got cancelled due to lack of candidates.


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## Lumber (4 Jul 2019)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Thinking about m. own OT for a bit:
> 
> It will have taken me over two years to finish three phases of training in NWO by the time I'm done Phase 4, assuming I don't fail that course. I'm lining up to go Submarines so there is another year or two of training not to mention I won't be NOPQ qualified for another what, two years?  So four or five years to become remotely useful  8)
> 
> ...



The thing about NWO and OFP and NOPQ is this.

Yes, technically you won't be OFP until you get your NOPQ qual, roughly 2 years after being posted to a ship. However, unlike some other trades, the non-NOPQ qualified subbies  are actually crucial members of the ship's company. They aren't just trainees; they fill highly important roles, including: 2OOW, FixO, QRT I/C, FP Watch Sups, A3 Evidence Gathering Officer (sometimes even A1 Boarding Officer), Safety Officers, etc. 

So, while you're not technically qualified as a watchkeeper or as an NWO, you're definitely integral to ship's ops, and definitely very, very busy.


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## Humphrey Bogart (4 Jul 2019)

Lumber said:
			
		

> The thing about NWO and OFP and NOPQ is this.
> 
> Yes, technically you won't be OFP until you get your NOPQ qual, roughly 2 years after being posted to a ship. However, unlike some other trades, the non-NOPQ qualified subbies  are actually crucial members of the ship's company. They aren't just trainees; they fill highly important roles, including: 2OOW, FixO, QRT I/C, FP Watch Sups, A3 Evidence Gathering Officer (sometimes even A1 Boarding Officer), Safety Officers, etc.
> 
> So, while you're not technically qualified as a watchkeeper or as an NWO, you're definitely integral to ship's ops, and definitely very, very busy.



I actually enjoy being in the muck, being in the training system again is a nice dose of humility and somewhat of a character building exercise for me.  Plus I get to do fun stuff, like I'm probably going on the Ship's Diver Course in September. Nobody wants to do it and I'm fit and healthy, so I put my hand up.  I'll get to learn to scuba dive for free, get some more bling for the uniform and also get a potential secondary duty for myself. Those opportunities were definitely closed to me when I was in the Army still. 

Believe it or not, I've actually bucked the Navy trend and regained a lot of fitness since I OT'ed and have lost 20lbs since January.  I'm on PAT Platoon now and they leave me to my own devices so I've taken the time to basically spend my entire days training.  Yesterday I biked 25km as part of my commute, did an hour of yoga in the morning and then did a HIIT circuit in the afternoon.  

Looking forward to finishing NWO IV and getting on with the business.


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## Pusser (16 Jul 2019)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Interesting discussion.
> 
> Pension doesn't get any better than 70%. No matter who ( CAF or OMERS ) is paying it.
> 
> ...



My plan exactly and I have one of those qualifications that is in high demand and very short supply.  The guy I relieved in my current position (who is of similar vintage to me) was retiring in order to take a Public Service job.  When I asked him why, he told me that he was still healthy and figured he could work another ten years.  I thought to myself that that's precisely the reason to retire earlier WHILE you're still healthy.  In 97 days, I intend to retire and enjoy not having to work everyday.  

Because I have special skills, I have frequently been asked if I intend to get a Public Service or Defence Contractor job.  The trouble with those though is that all of them expect you to show up everyday and work!  Although I won't shut the door on short term or part-time work on MY terms, I have no intention of ever working full time again.  My plan is to work on my home-based business (which is essentially a hobby with attitude) and mentorture sub-lieutenants as a Class A Reservist.  It's worth noting that my Class A pay + my pension will likely exceed my current income.


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## TechCrmn (16 Jul 2019)

I also do not understand what the big deal about double dipping, it's a win-win for the CAF and the member.

Scenario 1: I retire at age 25 collect my 50% pension and then go work at Home Depot for $17 instead of being hired to fill an open reservist position on base.
Result: CAF pays out my pension. They will also need to promote someone or move them from another location/position in order to fill the vacant reservist position. They would also theoretically need to hire on a new reservist or reg force member and train them, since the moment I left the CAF they are technically down one soldier.

Scenario 2: I retire at age 25 collect my 50% pension and then I am hired to fill the open reservist position on base making my regular pay $30+. 
Result: CAF pays out my pension. No one needs to be posted or moved because I filled the position, and a new recruit who needs training and experience is not required because I was retained in the CAF, and it is still at the same strength as when I "retired"

As you can see, Scenario 1 results in the member making less money and the CAF losing money due to having to train a new recruit. In both scenarios the CAF has to pay the same pension and the same salary for the reservist position so these costs are 0 sum.

Can someone please explain to me what is wrong with this? and why the CAF ever got rid of double dipping in the first place?


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## Eye In The Sky (16 Jul 2019)

My time witnessing the "double-dippers" was when I was at a CBGHQ 2002-2006ish.  We had both NCM and Officer's who were 'retired' and on CL B (some of them B annotated A) service.

What did they bring?  Decades of experience in their trades, connections to key people in HQs and TEs who were still Reg's, etc.  Their pension earnings, they earned and paid for them.  Their CL A and B earnings...would have been paid to regardless as someone would have filled that position.

So, what ended up happening?  They were made to take a 30ish day break (usually in the summer after their 2 weeks summer leave).  Technically no one was working that desk during that break but...the pace at the HQ was minimal then during the summer training season.  There were 3 of them (NCMs) in the G3 shop; they'd stagger their leave/break over the summer so one of them was in house at any given time.

The last one I knew of personally was a Reg Frce MWO;  his position was changed from a Reg MWO position to a Res MWO (maybe CWO) position.  He entered the competition, was chosen and put in his 30 day release.  Shortly thereafter, the Res Force pension was given life IIRC and then it all changed...


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## Bruce Monkhouse (16 Jul 2019)

TechCrmn said:
			
		

> , and a new recruit who needs training and experience is not required because I was retained in the CAF, and it is still at the same strength as when I "retired"


And I see it as another youth can't get a job that has a future.  So he tries to raise a family on that $17  job you should be filling.
My opinion only of course....

PS:...looking forward to a couple days a week at Home Depot in 2 more years.


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## Navy_Pete (16 Jul 2019)

That's not really how it works though; the younger person is recruited for one of the entry level positions, the older person is being retained in a position that usually requires 15-20 years of experience.  We are bleeding out people at all levels faster than we can recruit, but even if we exceed our annual intake, doesn't mean that the WO+ and Capt+ class A and B jobs will magically be filled.  People double dipping does not mean that people aren't being recruited.

There may be a few very small specialist trades where the upward movement depends a lot on someone's retirement, but that's the exception instead of the rule, and policy should be based on the most common situations with enough latitude to deal with specific situations as req.  This was another kneejerk sledgehammer approach where a scalpel to carve out the abuse/downside would maybe have been a better solution.  :2c:


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## TechCrmn (16 Jul 2019)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> And I see it as another youth can't get a job that has a future.  So he tries to raise a family on that $17  job you should be filling.
> My opinion only of course....
> 
> PS:...looking forward to a couple days a week at Home Depot in 2 more years.



I would completely agree that old timers shouldn't be taking jobs from today's youth. Lets be honest though, the forces have been hurting for recruits for a long time now and any youth that meets the eligibility requirements and wants to join the Reg F or Res F will likely get picked up.

All I'm really saying is that if the CAF has the option to retain someone with 25+ yrs of experience in the job and they can retain that person with no additional cost besides paying their wages (which they would have to pay someone else), than this seems like a no brainer, vice losing them to Home Depot lol

P.S. Home Depot is also on my list of places I need to submit an application to post retirement


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## quadrapiper (17 Jul 2019)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> There may be a few very small specialist trades where the upward movement depends a lot on someone's retirement


Could see a policy linking retention in - what - "regular career stream" positions as a returned retiree linked to availability of replacements in the tiers below to address those trades.

Expect the value of the returned-retired isn't usually in "line" roles in their trade or service, but in staff, instructor, and policy roles linked to it, or in e.g. PRes or COATS roles that're (at least on the COATS side) often going begging for actually-qualified members (all kinds of clerk, especially).


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## Loachman (17 Jul 2019)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> And I see it as another youth can't get a job that has a future.  So he tries to raise a family on that $17  job you should be filling.



I've been a Casual Public Servant doing the same job that I was doing pre-punting for over three years now. There is only one other way to fill this position: pull somebody out of a cockpit, and we don't have enough people in cockpits with sufficient experience as it is without putting one of them in my seat. It takes a long time to get somebody through the training system, a few more years to upgrade that person to Aircraft Captain, and more to get him or her various leadership levels. I'm a cheap way of filling this position, which requires a rare area and level of experience that I blundered into over many years.



			
				Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> PS:...looking forward to a couple days a week at Home Depot in 2 more years.



That doesn't appear to be as simple as one might think.


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