# New TT vest for the CF???



## westie47 (17 Feb 2007)

This is a question for any guys from VP in Edmonton. Tactical Tailor came up there and built some custom vests for some Patricia guys, don't know which bn. Does anyone have any info on these vests? Pics? All I know is that they were made Canadian-specific.


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## silentbutdeadly (17 Feb 2007)

They came up about a week ago to the 1st Bn and had allot of stuff to give out and such, no pics yet of the vests but they have linked up with the PPCLI kitshop so that stuff could be sold out of there in the near future.


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## PhilB (17 Feb 2007)

If you wouldn't mind giving us an update when you hear more that would be awesome!


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## westie47 (17 Feb 2007)

All I know is that they had three versions of vests: rifleman, C9, and M203. The rifleman is cap-able of carrying 10 mags, IFAK, 4 frags, 2 smoke

The M203 also carries 12 eggs

The C9 vest will carry 4 boxes.

They are in OD and Tan as Dave's is the only one who can sell in Cadpat, from what I understand, they will be carrying them in Cadpat. I am waiting for pics as well.


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## brihard (17 Feb 2007)

What's the advantage of these task specific rigs as opposed to a modular setup?


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## KevinB (17 Feb 2007)

Brihard said:
			
		

> What's the advantage of these task specific rigs as opposed to a modular setup?



Dinosaur friendly


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## brihard (18 Feb 2007)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> Dinosaur friendly



Sure, but can raptors and triceratops use the same piece of kit?


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## aesop081 (18 Feb 2007)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Sure, but can raptors and triceratops use the same piece of kit?



i think I-6 was refering to Kaf-a-saurus / garasaurus


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## PAT-Platoon (18 Feb 2007)

What's the official CF position on the TacVest? Have they confirmed that its not performing to standard and it will be replaced in the near future (ofcourse by near future i mean...well you know) or are they pretty much stuck with it for the next 10-20 years?


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## westie47 (18 Feb 2007)

I wouldn't hold my breath for a replacement.

Basically, some dudes from Edmonton called TT and asked them to make some versts up to what they wanted. TT did and brought them up, apparently they were well-recieved. Why they were not modular, I do not know. It would be pretty hard to make a be all, end all vest. I am interested in seeing it however.


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## aesop081 (18 Feb 2007)

westie47 said:
			
		

> It would be pretty hard to make a be all, end all vest.



is that not how we ended up with the issued TV in the first place ?  ;D


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## s23256 (18 Feb 2007)

I'll just clarify a bit of confusion here.  TT was invited up by a member of 1 VP who used, and was impressed by, their kit on Op ARCHER.  The Rep was asked to bring up rigs for a rifleman and C9 gunner.  He brought a couple of MAVs with pouches set up to meet specific needs, not fixed systems.  As noted he had a rifleman setup with mag pouches for 9 mags and a C9 setup with pouches for 4 boxes.  The rigs were modular, he just brought them pre-assembled to give an idea of the customization that is possible.


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## westie47 (18 Feb 2007)

Cool, thanks for the clarification


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## BDTyre (18 Feb 2007)

One of the guys in my regt used TT for his tour in Afghanistan.  His vest was pretty much all TT, with the exception of two pouches.  I believe he assembled it himself.


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## Farmboy (22 Feb 2007)

We are very happy to announce the addition of Tactical Tailor to our list of gear suppliers!!

  ;D


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## COBRA-6 (23 Feb 2007)

Great addition, all my TT gear has performed very well.


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## MikeL (24 Feb 2007)

PAT-Platoon said:
			
		

> What's the official CF position on the TacVest? Have they confirmed that its not performing to standard and it will be replaced in the near future (ofcourse by near future i mean...well you know) or are they pretty much stuck with it for the next 10-20 years?



We're(2PPCLI) is gonna be trialing a new vest(s) when we deploy as TF 1-08, dunno anything else about it aside from theres a few different variants of it. When the 1CMBG Commander came an talked to us this morning he said something about one being modular.


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## westie47 (24 Feb 2007)

MikeL - that's very interesting. I am deploying as part of 1-08, don't know in what capacity as of yet. We are not getting too much info about it. Looking at the CFTPO though, there doesn't seem to be too many jobs for inf sect comds.  Anyway, what is the Bn attitude toward aftermarket kit?


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## MikeL (28 Feb 2007)

Guys from other tours(1-06 an 3-06) bought their own chest rigs, assualt packs, etc for tour.  But one of my MCpls told our plt to wait out on buying our own chest rigs. etc since we could be given one of the new vest's to test out.


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## KevinB (28 Feb 2007)

MikeL --- keep in mind that exactly what C Coy 3VP was told -- and they did not get them...


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## PhilB (28 Feb 2007)

if its just a trial then dont bank on getting one. I would say with something as important as your load bearing gear its worth buying and training with.


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## KevinB (28 Feb 2007)

PhilB said:
			
		

> I would say with something as important as your load bearing gear its worth buying and training with.



+1


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## MikeL (6 Mar 2007)

Thanks for the heads up on that.  I'll wait out a bit before I buy my own rig, still gotta find out what kind of kit I'll get an need to carry on me, etc. First tour so I got no clue what I'll be issued; brother(031 in TF 3-06) gave me an idea of what I'll get, but I'm sure his loadout will varie from mine.


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## riggermade (6 Mar 2007)

If you plan on paying out of your pocket order well in advance...guys on last Roto here in Pet ordered stuff and it wasn't all in when they were leaving and they were left scrambling for assorted pouches


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## PhilB (6 Mar 2007)

Mike,

Do you know what weapon system you will be carrying? Once you know that it is pretty easy to start setting up a rig just based around base level requirments i.e. IFAK pouches etc. Ammo loadout on your vest is fairly standard and the beauty of a modular system is it can reconfigured. To mirror what rigger said on 1-06 I didnt order my stuff in time and had to deal with the hassel of having things redirected to the ghan. If you have questions or need some more info feel free to pm me anytime.


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## Bzzliteyr (7 Mar 2007)

According to the CO of TF 0307.. the TF should be getting 125 rigs/vests that he will be giving to one of his companies.  No news on what the rig/vest was but just that that's the only "non issued" kit that we'll see during the tour.


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## Garett (7 Mar 2007)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> According to the CO of TF 0307.. the TF should be getting 125 rigs/vests that he will be giving to one of his companies.  No news on what the rig/vest was but just that that's the only "non issued" kit that we'll see during the tour.



Leadership at its finest, give a small portion of your unit something the rest don't have.  I can't see that causing any problems...........


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## Bzzliteyr (7 Mar 2007)

hehe, did I word it to sound like that?  My mistake.  A certain subunit within the TF may possibly be issued with the new vest/rig for the tour.


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## PhilB (7 Mar 2007)

The "there will be no non-issue kit in theater" statment seems to be continually made by deploying battle groups, yet once in theater after the first TIC it seems that non issue stuff is good to go? Seems to me this is just screwing the boys by a) not allowing them to train with kit they will inevitably use b) forcing a lot of guys to make the decision to not have the kit when they deploy and finally c) forcing guys to pay significantly more for shipping to get their kit sent to Afghanistan.

IMHO troops deployed outside the wire should just buy a rig. Realistically you are looking at spending around $300 or so on a decent non issue rig. For a lot of guys on contract getting ready to deploy this isnt a huge expense (obviously it will vary depending on each guy and their personal situation). Buy the kit, take it with you, if you dont end up using it you can always sell it. I was able to sell my kit from TF 1-06 for basically exactly what I bought it for. I think it is better to have it then not.


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## KevinB (7 Mar 2007)

Sadly the chain of command in a lot of areas is hidebound to its idea of how a soldier should be equipped.

  Most of the units - not having seen combat cannot relate to the issues.  The first TIC brings the reality of the requirements to light -- and all the fact that the others who have been there and got the T Shirt have been saying for years...
Then the Chain of Command rotates and the Dinosaurs retake the earth.  -- Soon however the dinosaurs will be extinct.

My attitude was always -- WTF you going to do charge my ass for wearing unissue gear? -- Fine - I will take a CM and show the FACT that the TV sucks ass and is a detriment to my life.  The fact that 3VP, 1VP, 2VP, 1RCR and now apparently 2 Chicken have found the TV to be a giagantic POS make it easier to show a better system is needed

MJP made a nice video to that effect too BTW.


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## MikeL (7 Mar 2007)

When the 1CMBG Commander came down to talk to us, he was all for troops gettin their own thing, only rules he gave with it.

CO/RSM Must be alright with it
Aslong as you look like a Normal Soldier, an not some JTF2 Navy SEAL its good
An talk to the guys who have been over already, since they know what works an what doesn't.

Also, he was for troops training with the equipment they bought, since its better to train an get used to the kit here in Canada before deploying, than gettin used to it, etc in-theatre.


I've already picked up a few things for tour like the BLSS Helmet kit an a Camelbak Moterlode in Desert MARPAT. Plus all the other kit I've picked up since I've been in, IE jump ruck, 3L camelbak, etc


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## darmil (7 Mar 2007)

This might sound like a stupid questions. I'm going on TF 108 and I want to buy a chest rig. Wondering if most guys are getting it in CadPat AR, CadPat ,OD or Khaki ?


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## westie47 (7 Mar 2007)

Well there is definately alot of choices out there. I would say your bext bet is to get something in Tan or AR. That being said, after a couple of weeks in the dust, everything will look tan!!! Personally I will buy in AR as it will tie into our uniforms more. Just my thoughts though.


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## MikeL (7 Mar 2007)

Dunno what guys are buyin their rigs in, I'd assume it'll be in AR CADPAT or tan/coyote brown though.  My brother when he went over with 3-06 bought his rig in tan an other guys had AR CADPAT, black, etc


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## PhilB (7 Mar 2007)

I would try to stick with AR or Tan, but that being said I have a couple ranger green rigs that I am just going to paint. Krylon works fine for altering the color.


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## Bzzliteyr (7 Mar 2007)

And where might we find the said video from MJP?

I brought up the "modular tacvest" situation and referred to the 10 mag loadout during a question and answer period with the TF0307 CO and RSM.  I am not one to stir up any poo poo, but the response given to the whole squadron was that 5 mags are enough, there are LAV3s in the background that the troops can go and reload in.  I am positive he saw my jaw drop and hit the ground!!! He made reference to videos that we've seen of soldiers shooting aimlessly during firefights and wasting ammo, referrring to Vietnam techniques.  The RSM referred to the overseas situation as the wild west and that all the mixed kit was unprofessional and undisciplined.  He even went as far as comparing the old 64 pattern webbing with the new tacvest suggesting that if I had worn the latter, then I would be appreciating the tacvest alot more!!

That is first hand info and I am sorry to say, it scares me.


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## KevinB (7 Mar 2007)

Aimlessly to him = enemy in many different directions...
All I can say is they will learn -- I hope you guys dont have to pay that much blood in that learning curve...

- PM Mike for the vid and presentation.  Or better yet take AAR's from the Archer and (Kandahar) Athena TF's, and make your own presentation.


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## MJP (7 Mar 2007)

I'll see if I can dig up the presentation and the accompanying videos.  It was really another members baby to give credit where credit is due.  We just built on his already strong supporting argument with a power point and some videos.



			
				Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> I brought up the "modular tacvest" situation and referred to the 10 mag loadout during a question and answer period with the TF0307 CO and RSM.  I am not one to stir up any poo poo, but the response given to the whole squadron was that 5 mags are enough, there are LAV3s in the background that the troops can go and reload in.  I am positive he saw my jaw drop and hit the ground!!! He made reference to videos that we've seen of soldiers shooting aimlessly during firefights and wasting ammo, referrring to Vietnam techniques.  The RSM referred to the overseas situation as the wild west and that all the mixed kit was unprofessional and undisciplined.  He even went as far as comparing the old 64 pattern webbing with the new tacvest suggesting that if I had worn the latter, then I would be appreciating the tacvest alot more!!
> hand info



Sounds like your CoC is stuck in the 80/90's with regards to aftermarket kit.  We are fairly new into the actual fighting game as an institution, so maybe not everyone got the memo that we are at war and war fighters need the proper kit to succeed.  Just  maybe they need a friendly email/nudge from their our better informed higher echelon peers.  I certainly hope for your sake and the guys you deploy with they pull there collective heads out of their @ss and join 21st Century.


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## Matt_Fisher (7 Mar 2007)

You think Bzz is getting worked up here on the boards?  You should have seen him the other day when he dropped in to visit me at the shop... :rage:  Just ask him about the TFs desert boot policy.


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## R031button (7 Mar 2007)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> And where might we find the said video from MJP?
> 
> I brought up the "modular tacvest" situation and referred to the 10 mag loadout during a question and answer period with the TF0307 CO and RSM.  I am not one to stir up any poo poo, but the response given to the whole squadron was that 5 mags are enough, there are LAV3s in the background that the troops can go and reload in.  I am positive he saw my jaw drop and hit the ground!!! He made reference to videos that we've seen of soldiers shooting aimlessly during firefights and wasting ammo, referrring to Vietnam techniques.  The RSM referred to the overseas situation as the wild west and that all the mixed kit was unprofessional and undisciplined.  He even went as far as comparing the old 64 pattern webbing with the new tacvest suggesting that if I had worn the latter, then I would be appreciating the tacvest alot more!!
> 
> That is first hand info and I am sorry to say, it scares me.



SO he's expecting troops to fall back to LAV's to rebomb mags in the middle of a firefight? Wow.... that's a unique tactic...


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## Matt_Fisher (7 Mar 2007)

R031button said:
			
		

> SO he's expecting troops to fall back to LAV's to rebomb mags in the middle of a firefight? Wow.... that's a unique tactic...



I guess you never heard a radio interview done a year ago with the MND where he essentially stated that was how troops should be operating.


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## KevinB (8 Mar 2007)

common sense AINT so common...


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## LordOsborne (8 Mar 2007)

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> I guess you never heard a radio interview done a year ago with the MND where he essentially stated that was how troops should be operating.



Was that the same interview where he mistakenly said that we had 20 round magazines?  :
I'd be interested in seeing this video/presentation as well. I know I won't be going overseas in the near future because it will take some time to get fully trade qualified, but I made it my mission in life to learn all I can and I want to put these lessons into practise. I want to be that "enlightened platoon commander" that scares away the Kaf-asaurus.


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## RickG (12 Mar 2007)

All:

I believe that we can all agree that we need to move to modular tactical vest system, as what we currently have in service does NOT/NOT fit all the roles everyone fills these days, and weapons/ammo/other equipment we must carry.

So, what seems to be the general consensus on what we should be using?  A modular tactical vest (e.g. TT Modular Tac Vest) worn over existing body armour, (link below)
http://www.oneshottactical.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=oneshot&Product_Code=CR-TT-23024&Category_Code=CR-TT

as compared to a combined ballistic/tactical vest, like Diamondback Tactical's BattleLab Interceptor or Predator ballistic vests? (link below)
http://www.diamondbacktactical.com/Ballistic-Vest--C31.aspx

Do we all agree that we will all be wearing some form of body armour, all of the time?  Can anyone think of a scenario where we would forego wearing of body armour of some sort?  In my mind, not likely...

Can we get CPGear or any other Canadian company who has the rights to manufacture using CADPAT TW and AR to make some prototypes for the CF powers-that-be??  Who/what DND organization has to be pushed/prodded with a very sharp stick to quickly get new and realistic modular Tac vests or combined ballistic/tac vests into the system, and get us caught up to the obvious needs of the 21st century?!?

Best Regards,

Rick, in Ottawa


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## KevinB (12 Mar 2007)

The people to burn at the stake (or prod) is CTS (Clothe the Soldier) - and DLR (Director of Land Requirement).

Quite frankly while I agree with a modular vest is the wat to go -- I dont think that only one vest system will work.

Some jobs in the CF - (in my humble opinion) will require troops not wearing armour.
  Secondly while I prefer an intergrated vest system some will require a seperater system - since they wont be able to wear the vest in some situations when they need to be wearing armour.

Vehicle Borne troops will require a different system than Light/Airborne forces -- and combat soldiers have different needs from non combat personnel (although both need to be combat capable.)

Eagle and Paraclete make a much better integrated armour system than DiamondBack Tactical.


I would suggest that the CF go with a system that allows the members to chose several systems based on the needs (real or percieved) of the service member.
  Issue the soft armour and the plates -- and have several choices that the member can use for a armour holder and or vest system...


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## RickG (12 Mar 2007)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> I would suggest that the CF go with a system that allows the members to chose several systems based on the needs (real or percieved) of the service member.
> Issue the soft armour and the plates -- and have several choices that the member can use for a armour holder and or vest system...



Do you honestly think the CF would provide for and actually allow us to make choices?  Great idea, however, the Army has barely been able to fit out its troops in CADPAT shirts and pants in Canada, much less all the other accountrements, such as a CADPAT TW parka orTW rain gear!!  I know the troops in theatre have received the CADPAT AR rain gear, as I saw it being worn by all the "garritroopers" in KAF wearing it last fall.  Didn't help me any, as I was operating in civvies, and had to provide my own. (and no/no civvie clothing/kit allowance, either!!)

Here's a variation on your suggestion:  A sliding scale of allowances, somehow based on one's perceived role, in order to allow individuals to purchase their own preferred modular "rig", so long as it's available in CADPAT TW and AR, (as directed for the mission) and compatible with issue body armour. (Or OD or Tan or Black, depending on whether or not you operate in uniform.) 

That ought to get a few folks talkin'...

Rick, in Ottawa,


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## PhilB (12 Mar 2007)

I think that we should adopt a combination of the American and Brit systems. Have several base rig choices, all in a standard OD colour. There could be a MAV esque chest rig, a full modular vest, a modular set up similar to webbing for dismounted patrolling and for certain, units a full releasable armour carrier i.e. Eagle CIRAS. The scale of issue on base rigs would depend on the unit and its role. There could be a certain set of base rigs standard issue varying based on trade, and then certain rigs held within units.

From there would be a varied scale of issue on pouches depending on role. Rifleman get set of pouches X, C9 gunners Y, medics Z. The pouches would be held by respective unit/school RQ's and issued out to correspond with the weapons system a troop was carrying. In theater you could add specific mission related pouches as needed. Pouches could be produced in Cadpat TW, with a specific amount being produced in AR and issued when deploying.

I think a set set up like this would be both cost effective and allow users many options in setting up their kit.


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## LordOsborne (12 Mar 2007)

PhilB said:
			
		

> From there would be a varied scale of issue on pouches depending on role. Rifleman get set of pouches X, C9 gunners Y, medics Z. The pouches would be held by respective unit/school RQ's and issued out to correspond with the weapons system a troop was carrying. In theater you could add specific mission related pouches as needed. Pouches could be produced in Cadpat TW, with a specific amount being produced in AR and issued when deploying.
> 
> I think a set set up like this would be both cost effective and allow users many options in setting up their kit.



Instead of handing out a set number of pouches based on role, why not just issue all pouch types to all entitled soldiers? Roles can change fairly quickly and I think it might save a step and some time if troops didn't have to go to their RQ each time their situation or assignment changes. As I understand it, that's the way it's done in the US Army. Also, this allows soldiers to be more flexible in that they can pick and choose from a pool of pouches rather than a set number and type issued from RQ. I can see the merit of a limited issue system, such as less likelihood of pouch loss, but I think allowing soldiers to be as flexible as possible with their load bearing pouches is preferable. 

My 0.02
Pat


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## PhilB (12 Mar 2007)

Someone can correct, but I'm pretty sure the states issues out pouch sets. The get issued a base set that are common i.e. IFAK and then draw role specific pouches. It would be great to issue everyone every pouch but for our system I think it comes down to cost.


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## LordOsborne (13 Mar 2007)

Phil, I'm sure you're correct on the cost part. Funny though, how we hear that because we've got a small army, it's easy for us to recieve the best kit. From rough figures I read in the news, army equipment and kit is probably the cheapest of the three armed servies (contrasting a ~300 Million dollar C-17 or a multi-million dollar Frigate to a ~1 million dollar tank or a few million in textile purchases for LBVs and uniforms) so logically our stuff should be the easiest to swallow from a financial standpoint. It's a shame that the real thing doesn't seem to work that way.

I assumed that the US Army/ Marine Corps issued their troops all the pouches under the sun after reading "Battle Rattle" on page 8:



> The U.S. Army learned from the Marine Corps' first experience with MOLLE. It not only replaced the ball-and-socket frame with a fixed waist belt, but also put together training teams to teach small-unit leaders how to properly configure and use MOLLE. During the initial Marine Corps' experiments, young Marines were confused with the large bag of MOLLE pouches components; the army provided a similar bag of new gear to soldiers, but also provided instructors to help them put it all together properly.



(Hans Halberstadt, Zenith Press, 2006)


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## Farmboy (13 Mar 2007)

You figure for $2000 (tax and shipping not included  ) you can easily outfit each soldier with around 10 - 14 pouches and two MOLLE platforms.

Wonder what they have spent per soldier to have the TV made?

Issue the whole package to the soldier and have them responsible for it.  No point making extra work everytime a soldier needs a different pouch.


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## westie47 (13 Mar 2007)

Easy guys, you don't want to give them too many good ideas, they might go into brain overload!!!!!

Hey, add this to the mix: a guy gets everything in TW AND AR!!!!! Mind blowing, I know! Damn forward thinkers.


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## chrisf (13 Mar 2007)

Why bother to issue everybody everything in TW and AR? Make AR pouches same scale of issue as AR combats. You get the AR combats, you get the AR load bearing gear.


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## KevinB (14 Mar 2007)

Ideally everyone should also have AR cbt's

  I remember a certain general promising in Petawawa that we would have a Bde's worth of of desert gear given what we learned (that was 1994)


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## TheHead (2 Apr 2007)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> And where might we find the said video from MJP?
> 
> I brought up the "modular tacvest" situation and referred to the 10 mag loadout during a question and answer period with the TF0307 CO and RSM.  I am not one to stir up any poo poo, but the response given to the whole squadron was that 5 mags are enough, there are LAV3s in the background that the troops can go and reload in.  I am positive he saw my jaw drop and hit the ground!!! He made reference to videos that we've seen of soldiers shooting aimlessly during firefights and wasting ammo, referrring to Vietnam techniques.  The RSM referred to the overseas situation as the wild west and that all the mixed kit was unprofessional and undisciplined.  He even went as far as comparing the old 64 pattern webbing with the new tacvest suggesting that if I had worn the latter, then I would be appreciating the tacvest alot more!!
> 
> That is first hand info and I am sorry to say, it scares me.



Ohhhh this stuff makes me cringe.   5 Mags are enough?   Ask your RSM and CO how many firefights in Panjawai or Helmand they have been in :   During one fight we had, we couldn't get the LAVs up to the dismounts (or the dismounts back to the LAVS due to heavy machine gun fire and being pinned down) for up to a 30 minutes and even when we had 3 dead and countless others wounded.     

Referring to Vietnam techniques is such a cop out.  Your RSM and CO are going to feel pretty bad about themselves when they have men pinned down with no Ammo left.


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## Bzzliteyr (2 Apr 2007)

Go read the topic with the "drop leg setup".. it'll be an eye opener if you get the whole AAR from PatrickO...


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