# Regimental Shoulder Badges



## Matt_Fisher

Ok,

Here's another one of my silly "lets dress up the combat uniform" polls.

I personally like the old coloured regimental/branch shoulder badges (ie. red and white PPCLI badge, etc.) that were worn with the battledress uniform and briefly reintroduced with the ill-thought out garrison uniform

I was thinking that these coloured badges may look good on the cadpat combats for wear in garrison, similar to the velcro patches that the US Army is going to be using with their new 'Army Combat Uniform'.   

While not trying to mimic what the US Army is doing, the coloured regimental badges have a great deal of tradition and history behind them in that they were worn proudly during the Second World and Korean Wars, but sadly are disappearing into history.

The combats would come with a velcro patch sewn on the shoulder area and when in garrison the colored unit shoulder badge would be worn.   When in the field or on ops. the Canadian flag could be worn in lieu of the unit badge.

Anybody have any thoughts on this?


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## Michael Dorosh

The coloured patches would look godawful on CADPAT.  No need for them.  Our unit (probably others) still wear them on brassards, such as medics and regimental policemen.  There are others possible - orderly NCO, duty NCO (is there a difference?), etc.

Some units wore coloured flashes on the sleeves - for instance tartan patches; these might be better suited for your purposes than the embroidered "name" titles.

For example, the KOCR would have a square divided diagonally, light blue upper and dark blue lower, which are their regimental colours.  The Argylls would have their red and white dice (which is what the Allied regiment wears).  Etc.


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## McG

Brigade patches would be an option.


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## Michael OLeary

At least brigade patches are a uniform shape and size, unlike the traditional coloured unit flashes that would require an oversized common velcro patch to make sure everyone's flash would fit any given shirt.


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## McG

It might also start building pride in the combined arms formation (and not just the homogeneous unit).


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## X Royal

Leave the combat uniform without coloured regimental markers. The main pupose of the combat uniform is combat so colour is not needed.

Pro Patria


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## Michael Dorosh

X Royal said:
			
		

> The main pupose of the combat uniform is combat so colour is not needed.



According to whom?  It's worn more often in garrison as a form of working clothing that it is in the field....


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## Acorn

A slight diversion; I think colour is needed in garrison, if for nothing else than to determine if one has to salute at a slightly greater distance than full frontal contact.

I do agree with the point that if we do go to some patches (coloured or subdued) on the CADPAT, the need to have a common shape for the velcro. Not sure how the US army is going to handle the different patch shapes in their new uniform.

Acorn


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## Michael Dorosh

Acorn said:
			
		

> A slight diversion; I think colour is needed in garrison, if for nothing else than to determine if one has to salute at a slightly greater distance than full frontal contact.
> 
> I do agree with the point that if we do go to some patches (coloured or subdued) on the CADPAT, the need to have a common shape for the velcro. Not sure how the US army is going to handle the different patch shapes in their new uniform.
> 
> Acorn



The US Army actually knows how to sew their own badges, perhaps?  One of the many lost arts, apparently, along with Brasso and Blanco....


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## pbi

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> The US Army actually knows how to sew their own badges, perhaps? One of the many lost arts, apparently, along with Brasso and Blanco....



No-the badges will be velcro not sew on.

I am in favour of unit and bde badges in garrison, but I suggest that instead of buggering about with new velcro patches, etc we just use the brassard which works fine (we wear them here in ISAF).

And Matt, what do you mean by:



> (ie. red and shite PPCLI badge, etc.)


???

Cheers.


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## Acorn

Weren't brassards the rule in Korea as well? I agree, it is something that is workable.

Michael, the US still sews stuff on their BDUs, though I understand that will chance with the new uniform. We are not permitted to sew stuff on the CADPAT, as we did with the old combats.

pbi: I'm hoping Matt's comment was just due to the fact that "s" and "w" are adjacent on the keyboard. I wore the red & white PPCLI flashes for a few years. We wore them on the CFs and workdress. Later on the garrison dress after the brass titles were re-introduced with the DEU.

Acorn


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## pbi

> pbi: I'm hoping Matt's comment was just due to the fact that "s" and "w" are adjacent on the keyboard. I wore the red & white PPCLI flashes for a few years. We wore them on the CFs and workdress. Later on the garrison dress after the brass titles were re-introduced with the DEU.



Yes-I was just having him on. WRT the "red and whites", IIRC, the PPCLI was the first unit in the Canadian Army to wear cloth titles, at a time that other units wore metal titles or CEF numbers. IMHO we Patricias should have stuck with the cloth shoulder titles on those grounds and not gone to the tin ones. Cheers.


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## Michael Dorosh

pbi said:
			
		

> pbi: I'm hoping Matt's comment was just due to the fact that "s" and "w" are adjacent on the keyboard. I wore the red & white PPCLI flashes for a few years. We wore them on the CFs and workdress. Later on the garrison dress after the brass titles were re-introduced with the DEU.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes-I was just having him on. WRT the "red and whites", IIRC, the PPCLI was the first unit in the Canadian Army to wear cloth titles, at a time that other units wore metal titles or CEF numbers. IMHO we Patricias should have stuck with the cloth shoulder titles on those grounds and not gone to the tin ones. Cheers.
Click to expand...


Red and white titles were worn exclusively by Guards units in the British Army.  Canadian Guards units followed suit, though how early I am not sure.  PPCLI probably were the first as you point out.  By 1939, they were one of only four different units permitted to wear cloth embroidered shoulder titles on either Service Dress of Battle Dress, the others being the GGFG, the CGG, and the Canadian Provost Corps (according to regulation, at any rate).  The PPCLI appear to have jealously guarded this privilege, and wore the red and white titles in England in December 1939.

During 1941, regulations relaxed and all units adopted the titles that Matt describes in the first post.

I agree that the PPCLI title in white on red has much more history behind it - one would think these things would continue to be jealously guarded, but then again, my own Regiment can't be bothered to get an oak leaf unit title approved for CADPAT wear.  A shame.  But then again, we no longer wear them on the shoulder.

Belly Button Flash sounds so un-martial, doesn't it.


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## Matt_Fisher

pbi said:
			
		

> pbi: I'm hoping Matt's comment was just due to the fact that "s" and "w" are adjacent on the keyboard. I wore the red & white PPCLI flashes for a few years. We wore them on the CFs and workdress. Later on the garrison dress after the brass titles were re-introduced with the DEU.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes-I was just having him on. WRT the "red and whites", IIRC, the PPCLI was the first unit in the Canadian Army to wear cloth titles, at a time that other units wore metal titles or CEF numbers. IMHO we Patricias should have stuck with the cloth shoulder titles on those grounds and not gone to the tin ones. Cheers.
Click to expand...


pbi,

My bad.   No offence meant to you or any other Patricias as this was a typo on my end.   I'm editing my original post to correct this.     

I've edited the poll to take include the brassard option.  I didn't think of it at first, but now that it's been been brought up, I think that this is a great option as you wouldn't have to fool around with velcro.

Michael, prety much all sewing of badges and name tapes, etc. is done professionally by the multitude of tailor/dry cleaning shops around most US bases.

X Royal, on the philosophy that you put forth, should the beret and cap badge not be worn with combats regardless of garrison or field duty and the cadpat bush hat be worn instead?


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## rifleman

The Cap badge and unit title on the slip-on is enough for CadPat. What more is needed? Save all the rest of it for DEUs


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## GerryCan

I agree with that, putting badges on cadpat would look ridiculous. Sure people use them for work dress more than in the field, but let's not forget that they are called 'combats' for a reason. Put all the crap you want on the DEU's to make them look good, but leave the combats to what they are really for. I have never had too much of a problem deciphering between unit's by simply looking at the slip-on. 
Bring on all the fancy insignia and before you know it, we'll be spit-shining combat boots :blotto:


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## pbi

> Bring on all the fancy insignia and before you know it, we'll be spit-shining combat boots



What is this I see? A Royal complaining about chickensh*t? Jimmy Cox is revolving in his consultant's chair!! Cheers. ;D


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## X Royal

GerryCan said:
			
		

> Bring on all the fancy insignia and before you know it, we'll be spit-shining combat boots :blotto:



Thats exactly what happened in the late 70's early 80's. SSF patches, red and white Canada flags on combats & yes spit shone combat boots. Had to use a hot spoon to iron down the pebbles on the leather to get a good shine. After an exercise it was a real chore to get your boots back up to standard.
Do you really want to step back in time?
As for a Royal complaining about chickenshit why not we have seen our share.


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## Pencil Tech

I agree with either the velcro or brassard ideas. We hardly ever wear DEU anymore and I don't see why we can't smarten up a bit for garrison. While we're on the subject, I really like the way the Brits wear their combat shirts tucked in with stable belts.


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## Guardian

Pencil Tech said:
			
		

> I agree with either the velcro or brassard ideas. We hardly ever wear DEU anymore and I don't see why we can't smarten up a bit for garrison. While we're on the subject, I really like the way the Brits wear their combat shirts tucked in with stable belts.



Although I agree with you, I don't see how that would work for us with the huge hip pockets. Mind you, with the tac and flak vests those pockets are superfluous anyway - maybe the next series of combat uniforms could drop them entirely and we could think of tucking in the shirts in garrison.... just a thought.


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## Michael Dorosh

Guardian said:
			
		

> Although I agree with you, I don't see how that would work for us with the huge hip pockets. Mind you, with the tac and flak vests those pockets are superfluous anyway - maybe the next series of combat uniforms could drop them entirely and we could think of tucking in the shirts in garrison.... just a thought.



You've forgotten the Mark III combat shirt already?  They tried in the 1990s, didn't fly.  I wore one religiously, however, I never tucked it in.  The only one I saw who did was a general doing an inspection.


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## onecat

"we could think of tucking in the shirts in garrison"

I hope they don't develop one...


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## McG

rifleman said:
			
		

> The Cap badge and unit title on the slip-on is enough for CadPat. What more is needed?


Maybe (for garrison) gold thread for the rank & use the colours from the old shoulder badges in the unit title on the slip-on.  With that could be a brassard to show the brigade patch and a red & white Canadian flag.


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## rifleman

I suggest we wear traffic vests with all pertinant information about ourselves on it, english on one side and french on the other. (in garrison only, of course),


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## Storm

McG said:
			
		

> Maybe (for garrison) gold thread for the rank & use the colours from the old shoulder badges in the unit title on the slip-on.   With that could be a brassard to show the brigade patch and a red & white Canadian flag.



Gold thread for the rank in garrison could definately help people from going crosseyed trying to figure out if they have to salute or not... or at the very least use the old solid OD ones.


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## Michael Dorosh

McG said:
			
		

> Maybe (for garrison) gold thread for the rank & use the colours from the old shoulder badges in the unit title on the slip-on.   With that could be a brassard to show the brigade patch and a red & white Canadian flag.



Not a bad idea - could even use the "old gold" thread that we used to use on Garrison Dress, since we are talking about garrison dress.

Multi-coloured unit titles would be gaudy, but not a bad idea.   Or, how about reviving the old Corps colours - infantry scarlet, rifle regiments black and green, artillery and MPs red, Logistics blue (the colour of the RCOC, unless they have their own Branch colours now), etc.   Use the colour for the backing of the unit title and have white or buff thread.  Would be a jaunty touch without being overpowering like a stable belt or other expensive item.


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## Matt_Fisher

What about in garrison wearing a brassard with colored unit shoulder patches, brigade patch and gold 'garrison' dress rank insignia?

Then for combat/operations use the cadpat slip on with subdued rank and unit abbreviation with the Canadian flag on the shoulder in either colour or subdued.


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## Michael Dorosh

So here is what the coloured titles on the CADPAT slip ons might look like.

Some interesting options.

"Corps colours" - infantry corps with white on red for all units, white on blue for service battalions, etc.

Regimental colours - for example, scarlet and rifle green for the QOR.   PPCLI would have maroon and French Grey, or, as shown here, a miniature of the very famous PPCLI shoulder title.   KOCR regimental colours are the two shades of blue - rather than using the colours of the Armoured Corps, they might use their regimental colours.

Lots of options, and would be a nice homage to the older traditions of coloured headdress and officers rank badges distinguishing your corps or branch.


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## Spartan

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> So here is what the coloured titles on the CADPAT slip ons might look like.
> 
> Some interesting options.
> 
> "Corps colours" - infantry corps with white on red for all units, white on blue for service battalions, etc.
> 
> Regimental colours - for example, scarlet and rifle green for the QOR. PPCLI would have maroon and French Grey, or, as shown here, a miniature of the very famous PPCLI shoulder title. KOCR regimental colours are the two shades of blue - rather than using the colours of the Armoured Corps, they might use their regimental colours.
> 
> Lots of options, and would be a nice homage to the older traditions of coloured headdress and officers rank badges distinguishing your corps or branch.


I think that would be really interesting and goodlooking for garrison. And a bonus of having historical information being passed on- always a good thing. 
and I definately support all ranks wearing the golden like or OD thread - so much easier for me as a wee pte (R) to acknowlegde from a distance


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## Matt_Fisher

Michael,

The colored unit abbreviations look interesting.

The only problem I see with the coloured slip-on titles is for units that have more than two official colors.

Could you do a few versions featuring a cadpat brassard with regimental shoulder badge, brigade patch and gold 'Garrison Uniform' rank insignia like what you did with the cadpat slip-ons?


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## McG

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> Could you do a few versions featuring a cadpat brassard with regimental shoulder badge, brigade patch and gold 'Garrison Uniform' rank insignia?


That would get awfully cluttered.

In the end, I think adding the Bde patch (for in garrison) would serve us better than making the unit identification flashier & brighter.   My reserve experience was that everyone's attachment was to their regiment.   It stopped there.

There was no sense of belonging at the Bde level.   I think wearing the patch, and reminding people they are part of something larger could go a long way to fostering an _atmosphere of partnership_ amongst Bde members that often train along side eachother in composite sub-units at summer concentrations.  I've noticed the same impressions of supremacy of the unit in the regular force.  However, maybe because the Bde units all live together on super-bases, this impression is much dimminished from that in a reserve unit.


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## rifleman

Perhaps they should create a special uniform that we would only wear in garrison. ;D ;D


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## McG

Been done.  Did not work.


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## Spr.Earl

rifleman said:
			
		

> Perhaps they should create a special uniform that we would only wear in garrison. ;D ;D


Care to buy one?
Next to new,with boots.


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