# Canadian: Air Passenger bill of rights  [Merged]



## a_majoor (26 May 2008)

Considering the level of service that other government monopolies offer, this is not too surprising. Why it should be allowed to happen is a result of wrong headed policies and regulatory failure that allows such monopolies to exist unchallenged (who else flies international flights out of Ottawa?).

Action item; start writing your MP to complain about government monopolies (Air Canada, the CBC, Canada Post, etc.) and demand the market place be opened to allow competition and subsidies removed from these and other organizations.

http://www.doggerelparty.ca/2008/05/obligatory-post-vacation-air-canada.html



> *Obligatory Post Vacation Air Canada Rant *
> 
> If you've flown Air Canada recently, skip this post, as doubtless you have experienced the joys of the world's worst international carrier first hand.
> 
> ...



Luckily I live where I can go to Detroit Metro and choose a wide variety of airlines to go places (and save a huge amount of money). Not everyone has that option. Make a difference; write.


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## MedTechStudent (26 May 2008)

I have had a few Air Canada nightmares, but then again I've had a Canada 3000, Westjet, Air Transit, and Sky Service one too.  Air Canada is just consistently, and infamously terrible at customer service.    

I think we're forgetting the real Air Canada issue here.  Which is the hideous paint job the fleet was given.  I don't know if the baby blue is to make them, like camouflaged against the sky or what.  But it is quite hideous to look at it. 

Best airline I ever flew was Lufthansa IMO.


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## dapaterson (26 May 2008)

My personal favourite:  When Air Canada lost my carry-on baggage.  Or, once with a short connection where I had to clear customs (returning from the US), the helpful crew told me: "Gee, you won't make that connection."  (I did, by using the "Aircrew and Diplomats" line - the CBSA agent scolded me, I played innocent and pointed out that no one else was in the line, then said (with fingers crossed) that I wouldn't do it again).

Or even their unfortunate habit of abandonning luggage on the tarmac in Montreal for flights to Fredericton...

Singapore Airlines economy class is far beyond the quality of Air Canada business class... the trip back from Singapore was disappointing, since I had to switch from Singapore Airlines at LAX and resume on Air Canada - quite the letdown (and lost luggage, with the usual Air Canada attitude of "Well, it might show up sometime.  Oh, you have a connection?  Well then, let's slow things down even more...")


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## MedTechStudent (26 May 2008)

According to Air Canada, they _never_ "lose" your luggage.  I believe the standard apology letter is something like: 

"We regret to inform you that your luggage has flown to a different location."  

Implying of course that your luggage got up, subdued the loading crew with stealthy lethal precision, and jumped onto another flight.   :


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## joonrooj (26 May 2008)

I was going to Jamaica via Air Canada to Toronto, then Air Jamaica from there. 
Air Canada delayed me from my 6 am flight (meaning I was at the airport at 4), a total of 4 times. Each time saying the plane had engine problems. My step-dad, who was a pilot for 30 years, and a general mechanic, was looking at the plane thru the window, and noticed ZERO work being done on it. His thought was that they were delaying the flights so that they could combine multiple flights and make more money. After the third 'delay' I was told I would be compensated if I missed my connection, surprise surprise, 4th delay, missed connection.
I go to the ticket counter to rebook for tomorrow and recieve my compensation. She rebooked for me (and was actually very nice and seemed sorry for the delays), I then asked about my compensation, completely shocked the lady behind the counter said she rebooked my flight for me for free. I politely explained to her that I had travel insurance that covered this, and it didn't take her more than 5 minutes to rebook it. I asked to speak to the manager. Manager comes out, completely unapologetic, hands me a voucher she tells me was good for anywhere in the airport, because it was now lunchtime. I take a look at the voucher and explode, it was for $3, I am now a flagged passenger on Air Canada, because I said "This is BS!", anyways, the folks at Air Jamaica were nice enough to print off the manager's report, which told a very different story, said I was abusive and threatening, even when offered "sufficient compensation".
Now whenever I absolutely have to fly Air Canada, I have to put up with an extra amount of BS, because my name is flagged.

Screw you Air Canada.


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## Bzzliteyr (26 May 2008)

I came back from Afghanistan this spring and suprisingly lost my Valise off my rucksack on my flight home to NB.  I had not secured it well enough and it did not show with the rest of my luggage. To top it off, I had passed through some little airport in Montreal.  I desribed it to the best of my abilities when I reported it missing and wouldn't you know it, it turned up at my door two days later, hand delivered!!

I am suprised to hear horror stories like the one above and hope that it makes people realize that competition is a good thing.   They really don't have any reason to serve you "above and beyond" as you are a guaranteed customer, you have no other choice.

On a side note, I have never flown with Westjet but when I drove 12 hours with a Westjet pilot this spring hitchhiking across the country, he convinced me that they are good people.  I hope to try them out once they head East.


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## Dissident (26 May 2008)

The only pleasant experience I had with Air Canada was when I flew from Toronto to Vancouver coming home from Tour. The fact that I was dressed in  arid CadPat is most likely the reason why.

I will not fly AC if given the choice.


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## RHFC_piper (26 May 2008)

I've actually had little trouble with Air Canada... But I've only ever flown with them once; Toronto to St. Lucia.   I don't like flying, so I generally just sleep, waking up long enough for crappy airline food (which doesn't seem to be different with any airline).  So, I can't say I noticed anything really bad that seems out of the normal.
There are things I didn't like; Food, lack of leg room...  But like I said, food is the same on just about all flights, and since I'm over 6ft. no seats are really made to fit... 

But, poor customer service is a huge pet peeve for me.  So, much like submitting a UCR, I would strongly suggest submitting a complaint to Air Canada and the Better Business Bureau of Canada.  

The way most companies work is they weigh the difference in cost between improving their current system and giving a settlement which may subdue the complaint. For the most part, companies go with paying off the complaint, so if you complain individually and accept what they give you, you will get a "voucher"... But if enough people complain about the same service (or lack there of) or complain in a public forum (such as a news paper) and compel others to formally complain, you may not get a voucher, but the company may review their state of service.

Companies like Air Canada can, as I would imagine, afford to ignore individual complaints... And for the most part, could ignore a great deal of international flight complaints, as most of their revenue most likely comes from National flights.  So it may even be better to contact Canadian Transport Agency 


As I've said; I haven't had any real issues with Air Canada, but I sure as hell can't stand it when companies treat people poorly... Sometimes these companies need to be reminded that people are their source for income and sometimes people need to remember that they don't have to tolerate poor service... It's all about competition.


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## Cdn Blackshirt (26 May 2008)

I'm not a fan of Air Canada (or WestJet for that matter), but anyone who thinks Air Canada is bad, needs to take a couple of flights on a U.S. carrier via Chicago, New York or Miami.  

I should add, Toronto has some of its own issues regardless of carrier.  If you fly Air Canada out of many other airports, it's much nicer.


Matthew.


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## MedTechStudent (26 May 2008)

Yea thats a good point, I just cant get over AC paint job!  The color scheme is far too hideous!   :crybaby:


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## Neill McKay (26 May 2008)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Action item; start writing your MP to complain about government monopolies (Air Canada, the CBC, Canada Post, etc.) and demand the market place be opened to allow competition and subsidies removed from these and other organizations.



Air Canada is a private company; it hasn't been a Crown corporation since the 1990s.  Nor is it, broadly speaking, a monopoly (although it is the only game in town for a number of smaller airports).

(CBC also isn't a monopoly; there are all kinds of other radio and TV broadcasters in Canada.  Canada Post is a monopoly only in so far as flat-rate lettermail is concerned, and I don't think any other company in Canada would move an envelope from St. John's to Whitehorse for under a buck even if they were allowed.  For everything else they do, you can get Fedex or whoever instead if you prefer.)

None of that is to say that Air Canada is very good at running an airline, mind you, because I agree that they're not!

The first time I flew to Victoria fully half of the passengers on the last leg (Vancouver to Victoria) were luggageless on arrival.  My bag arrived at the duty officer's desk sometime in the small hours the next morning.  The next time I flew with them I managed to get everything I needed into a bag small enough to carry on.  Unfortunately so did a lot of other people, so finding a place to stick everything was a challenge.

VIA Rail is slow in comparison, but so much more pleasant.


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## Greymatters (26 May 2008)

You cant avoid travelling Air Canada for some trips.  They are, unfortunately, still the dominant airline with the greatest coverage across Canada (under their main line and subsudiary smaller branches), at least until Westjet takes over.  

I take it for granted on every trip with them nowadays that something will get damaged or go missing (as something has gone missing or got broken on every trip in the past) and end up packing accordingly...


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## davidk (26 May 2008)

Air Canada has been consistently terrible every single time I've flown with them. On a flight from Montreal to Edmonton, several onboard speakers were emitting some sort of loud buzzing noise. None of the AC personnel had any idea what it was, and when I informed them that it was preventing me from sleeping, they suggest that I bring earplugs next time. Then they ran out of complimentary beverages.

Best flight ever? Flying from Montreal to Wemindji, QC for an exercise aboard Air Creebec. Pros all the way.


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## Lance Wiebe (26 May 2008)

OK, I have to jump in here.

I fly maybe eight or nine times a year our of Fredericton, traveling to Valcartier, Petawawa and Edmonton.  I fly Jazz, and if I'm going to Edmonton, then I go Air Canada.

I book my own flights, and I don't know if it is because of the staff at Fredericton or not, I have never had a major problem in the last seven years I've been traveling.  The only time my baggage didn't show up, it was turfed for priority baggage.  One of our own, complete with escort, in a coffin.  I certainly wasn't going to complain about that, and neither was anyone on the aircraft.

Oh, occasionally there will be a delayed flight, due to weather or mechanical breakdown.  It happens with any airline, even our very own Argus and 707's weren't always on time!

Mind you, I don't travel with small children, or with strollers, but I do always have checked baggage.

Maybe I'm one of the lucky ones, or maybe they like my charm and good looks (or they take pity on me for the way I look), but I really can't complain about Air Canada.....


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## armyvern (26 May 2008)

Lance Wiebe said:
			
		

> OK, I have to jump in here.
> 
> *I fly maybe eight or nine times a year our of Fredericton*, traveling to Valcartier, Petawawa and Edmonton.  I fly Jazz, and if I'm going to Edmonton, then I go Air Canada.
> 
> ...



Or perhaps it's because you're their best customer?? There are only 8 or 9 flights *a year * out of Freddy after all ...  >

Kidding ... you're lucky. I've had problems out of Freddy on Air Canada.


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## UnrulyCanuck (26 May 2008)

MedTechStudent said:
			
		

> Yea thats a good point, I just cant get over AC paint job!  The color scheme is far too hideous!   :crybaby:



And expensive too. I heard they they overloaded the paint so much that it adds extra weight to the plane, which in turn costs more fuel.


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## UnrulyCanuck (26 May 2008)

I've had little trouble flying with Air Canada. Never lost any luggage with them, but I find their customer service agents and their flight attendants are jaded and rude. 
I've flown with LIAT, Solomon Airlines, Air Vanuatu, Lufthansa and Air New Zealand. I would have to say that Air NZ was the best I've flown with followed by Lufthansa.


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## megany (26 May 2008)

I'm knocking on wood here, but so far I've been happy with Air Canada... or at least reasonably so.  I was flying business class to Colombia, though, and felt very overlooked by all but the male flight attendant (the only Spanish speaker - he was dealing with the coach cabin).  The surly older women didn't even take my dinner order, didn't offer to take my jacket, etc. etc.  All of which should be par for the course in business.

I just hate how they don't apologize.  They were blaming a delay in a Houston - Calgary flight on "bad weather" while my travel agent said that the flight was delayed due to mechanical difficulties.  The difference?  If it's weather they don't have to compensate you or put you up for the night if the plane doesn't come in.  None of the ground staff offered an apology (my second run in with Houston ground staff).

But I've also had awful experiences with other airlines.  I had a terrible Tokyo - Washington DC flight on ANA (switched to middle seat, middle section after being given the requested aisle seat, rude service, etc.).  At Christmas, flying Westjet from Calgary they announced that there was a missing flight attendant and that they could only seat the first x number of passengers and could only go with those passengers unless she showed up soon, due to safety regulations.  Then the whole flight smelled like wet animal and urine.

So it's not just Air Canada that is awful.  Some of their new planes (the embrear's, for example) are comfortable and I love to fly them.  Also lots of foot room compared to the same route on a United plane.


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## 1feral1 (27 May 2008)

I dread Air Canada, but its the only choice pretty much for me. Crap entertainment on the TV thing, average food, and what I consider old dirty interiors of their planes.

I rate them equal to Air Uganda or Air China. Aeroflot even sounds better

I will be flying Brisbane to Vancouver again soon, then Van to Regina. Not looking forward to it at all.


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## dapaterson (27 May 2008)

Wes:  Sing Air to some US destination, then connect to AC.  Much more civilized (and a Star Alliance partner, so you can gather more Aeroplan points if you want).  Just avoid international arrivals at LAX.  Believe me, the gates of hell are better organized, and probably less painful...


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## tabernac (27 May 2008)

I've flown AC, Sky Service, West Jet and North West Airlines. By far the best service was with NWA (damn well should have been too, flying first class as a silver elite member), but Sky Service is actually pretty good. They're the only airline that has complimentary meals on their flights. West Jet? Meh. But still better then AC.
Edit:SP


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## Gunner (27 May 2008)

I can not say that Air Canada is the "evil empire" it once was and after traveling a fair bit over the last year I have noticed an improvement (they smiled when they told me my bags didn't arrive in Calgary and were even good enough to give me an overnight kit..).  

All bitching aside, I will say that after arriving back in Canada after over nine months in Afghanistan, we finally arrived in Toronto (through Trenton...).  We were traveling in CADPAT and when I arrived at the counter I asked if we could be bumped up to business class.  The Air Canada agent told me to ask at the gate as it appeared seats were available.  At the gate, the Air Canada attendant was very helpful and bumped approximately 8 of us up to business class.  It was a great way to end the tour and the food was very nice as well.  

For best airline, I vote for Emirates.  It has never disappointed me.


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## MedTechStudent (27 May 2008)

cheeky_monkey said:
			
		

> I've flown AC, Sky Service, West Jet and North West Airlines. By far the best service was with NWA (damn well should have been too, flying first class as a silver elite member), but Sky Service is acutually pretty good. They're the only airline that has complimentary meals on their flights. West Jet? Meh. But still better then AC.



Ya flew sky service to Cuba the one time.  _That_ time was great.  Free wine?  Why yes ma'am.



			
				Gunner said:
			
		

> I can not say that Air Canada is the "evil empire" it once was and after traveling a fair bit over the last year I have noticed an improvement (they smiled when they told me my bags didn't arrive in Calgary and were even good enough to give me an overnight kit..).
> 
> All bitching aside, I will say that after arriving back in Canada after over nine months in Afghanistan, we finally arrived in Toronto (through Trenton...).  We were traveling in CADPAT and when I arrived at the counter I asked if we could be bumped up to business class.  The Air Canada agent told me to ask at the gate as it appeared seats were available.  At the gate, the Air Canada attendant was very helpful and bumped approximately 8 of us up to business class.  It was a great way to end the tour and the food was very nice as well.
> 
> For best airline, I vote for Emirates.  It has never disappointed me.



Lol its all about Qantas for me.  Wes Down Under must be so proud that his country has the safest flight records, ever.

Edit http://www.smh.com.au/news/news/qantas-defends-safety-record-as-it-probes-jets-power-loss/2008/01/11/1199988578012.html

see they fight for that safety record  ;D


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## jzaidi1 (27 May 2008)

I agree Air Canada is not great but I have been on worse flights.  Back in the early 90's I had the pleasure of taking a CF Service Flight from Halifax to Toronto - OMG, the plane was so old, seats were worn & torn, rivets were literally starting to pop out of the wings and flight attendants?  Noooooooo...no flight attendants, Safety NCMs I gather - who are not going to serve a flight full of drunken soldiers.  The bumpiest ride I have ever been on.  This plane made Air Canada economy seem like Trump Air.  I believe the aircraft was a CF-owned plane and not charter.

The best airline - believe it or not was Jet Airways flying within India - everything there is BRAND NEW, the flight attendants were great, meals were fantastic (with real cutlery), entertainment top notch and the onboarding/offboarding procedures a breeze.  Jet Airways now flies to Toronto - awesome stuff.  Air Canada seriously needs some service lessons from these guys.  

We have to remember that AC is a Union environment with Union flight attendants (stressed out, middle-aged, waiting for retirement, unhappy with management) - the image of perky, young and energetic flight attendants belong to non-union airlines in most other countries like Cathay, Singapore Airlines, Emirates, etc.  God I miss those airlines!!

J


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## RangerRay (27 May 2008)

Our small airport is serviced by two small airlines, one of which is affiliated with Air Canada (Central Mountain Air).  CMA is consistently better priced, and both companies use culverts with wings, as opposed to real aircraft!

The few times I've flown West Jet, I was impressed.  It doesn't hurt that I expect no frills with them, whereas with Air Canada, I expect better service.


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## JesseWZ (27 May 2008)

I have had consistently poor experiences with Air Canada. When I flew to Hawaii with my family they lost 2 pieces of luggage and destroyed a third. (It was one of those large jobbies, and without wheels was completely unusable for anything over 10 meters) When we finally got the two pieces of luggage back (3 days later) it was also wrecked, with about half of the items in it missing and the rest in a garbage bag surrounding the luggage. On my return flight, they overbooked the flight by an immense amount of people, (a Sunday night, they should know better) and tried to offer to rebook for the next evenings flight, the problem was everyone needed to return to work the Monday morning and instead of upping the offer for an extra nights stay in Hawaii plus food to entice people, they just randomly removed people from the flight. 
I have to fly to Halifax from Winnipeg with my kit for course this week... I hope my stuff makes it there...


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## Fishbone Jones (27 May 2008)

They lost my bag on the way to Spain. Ten days later, the day before I was leaving, they delivered it to the hotel. Lost it again for two days on the way home. No apology. Friggin' wankers.


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## foresterab (27 May 2008)

I've flown Westjet, Air Canada, United, Alaskan, Cathay Pacific and a few others...

Air Canada is the one I dread. I've had either luggage lost or damaged at: Fort St. John, Vancouver, Grande Prairie, Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, Thunder Bay, Sudbury, Toronto...

Last 15 flights...11 flights with lost luggage.   I'm so numb now from late flights, missed connections, poor service I'm just happy the plane flys now.

Worst part is I don't live near the airport and fed-ex doesn't deliver to the door...so I get a phone call to drive to the bus station to pick it up when it does come in. 

Best in flight service?  Cathy Pacific.  

Best staff attitude?  Westjet...I've had some pretty amusing flights with them that made travel fun.

I check westjet first now...then US carriers...then Air Canada just to avoid the screw-ups.


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## Greymatters (27 May 2008)

foresterab said:
			
		

> Worst part is I don't live near the airport and fed-ex doesn't deliver to the door...so I get a phone call to drive to the bus station to pick it up when it does come in.



You should be a bit more assertive with your demands.  It is normal for airlines to deliver to your door when they lose your luggage.  It is, after all, the least they can do to make up for their mistake...


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## Kirkhill (27 May 2008)

If you don't like Air Canada don't try West Jet....

Their seats are more tightly packed.  Their baggage security is as lax.  Their schedules are loose.  Their prices are no better.  Their food is as non-existent.  And worst of all you have to put up with wannabe comedians and those that have been told to be comedic.....

I will take Air Canada any day.


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## foresterab (27 May 2008)

Air canada doesnt' have to deliver your luggage if you're more than 150? 125km from the airport and is allowed to use FedEx or alternatives...hence Greyhound calling me to get my gear.

While Westjet hasn't been perfect I've had a much better success rate with flights leaving on time, connections, an honest effort to look out for us when things go wrong.  The jokes can get cheasy...don't get my wrong...but at least there is an attempt.  

Sure beats 9 hour international flights with Air Canada with one drink served...glass of water and done.


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## Greymatters (27 May 2008)

That is a long ways away, although I think your case would be an exception rather than the rule...


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## foresterab (27 May 2008)

unfortunately it's over 300km to travel just to make the airport.  Doesnt' matter if I go west or south.

I'm used to paying a price/premium based upon where I'm at...but Air Canada definately takes it to a new level.


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## MedTechStudent (27 May 2008)

foresterab said:
			
		

> Sure beats 9 hour international flights with Air Canada with one drink served...glass of water and done.



You got a glass of water?!


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## kincanucks (27 May 2008)

I have flown AC and many other airlines and I have not had any major problems.  One overbooked flight which resulted in a bump into business class for a later flight.  Recently I flew to the UK on AC in business class. Excellent service on the outbound flight and not so great on the inbound to Canada leg.  I was a little put off by the duct tape used to hold some of the trim in place in business class but the seat turning into a bed made up for it.  Overall, all good experiences and I have probably jinxed myself for future flights.


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## foresterab (27 May 2008)

yeppers...water as I'd been traveling for two days already and was dried out from all the recycled air...

At least the flight heading overseas went better than the one back.

Asked for a beer...sorry sir..service is not available right now.  Huge comparision from Cathy Pacific.


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## MedTechStudent (27 May 2008)

kincanucks said:
			
		

> Overall, all good experiences and I have probably jinxed myself for future flights.



Lol, mhmm your next post in this thread will most likely go "Overall service was sub-par.  However I certainly did _not_ appreciate the pilots leaving the tail section of the plane on the tarmac during takeoff."


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## kincanucks (27 May 2008)

I forgot to mention my experience on Croatian Air when the plane descended 5000 feet in about five microseconds for no apparent reason.  After the dust settled I had to pry the fingernails of the beautiful woman sitting next to me out of my arm.  However, I did not spill my drink.


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## Old Sweat (27 May 2008)

This is ancient history (1969) from back when Air Canada was known as Mapleflot. I arrived at Winnipeg airport for a flight to Toronto or Ottawa on the first leg of a trip to Fort Hood. The lineup at the lone check-in counter operating was long and slow. Just as I was within a couple of places of the window, the person at the wicket stated "it's time for my break," placed a closed sign on the counter and departed.


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## TCBF (27 May 2008)

- The OLD OLD Air Canada: Flying in DEUs into Sault Ste Marie:  cabin crew is popping me a last beer (and sticking two more 'complimentary' into my carry-on) after the a/c has turned onto final.

- The  OLD Air Canada: Dec 2001, two identical a/c on the tarmac, one for Buffalo, one for Thunder Bay.  One breaks down.  More pax are going to Buffalo, so it is obvious which set of pax is told that their a/c is broken. Air Canada does, however, offer a free night in T.O.  My issue is why you have to fly from Edmonton to T.O to get to Thunder Bay in the first place.  Perhaps they are in cahoots with Via Rail, who won't send passenger trains through Thunder Bay , a city of 110,000 people (you will, however, receive courteous, professional Via Rail service to Thunder Bay - if you are a pallet). 

- Fav flights: 
1. Air France: Frankfurt - Paris.
2. Lufthansa: Paris Mirabel/Frankfurt - Toronto/etc (but not the one where the portside blonde sky-waitresses were not talking to the starboard brunette sky-waitresses, so if you sat in a middle-middle seat, service was nonexistent).
3. Singapore Airlines - the 747 flights Diego Garcia - Kuala Lumpur - Guam - Hawaii - Edmonton were great!
4. Westjet: They try.

For the most part, nowadays, Pax are just self-loading cargo.  Air Kanuckistan is not the only airline being slammed for this.


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## MedTechStudent (27 May 2008)

Oh I forgot about KLM flight from Toronto To Amsterdam.  747 a/c nice interior, lots of leg room.  Friendly staff even with their unpleasant dutch accents.  Great food, good entertainment, free beer.    Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij is defiantly a keeper.


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## armyvern (27 May 2008)

Emirates Air

By far the best travel experience of this girl's life ...

Of course, I flew Business Class

but even their economy class  would outdo most airlines 1st Class service (especially Air Canada's NO service).


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## TCBF (27 May 2008)

MedTechStudent said:
			
		

> ... their unpleasant dutch accents.  ...



- Me, I LIKE Dutch accents.


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## MedTechStudent (27 May 2008)

TCBF said:
			
		

> - Me, I LIKE Dutch accents.



I was waiting for someone to take the other side to that comment.   

I just find their language itself very nasally and congested sounding when they talk.  Same with Czech.


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## Shec (27 May 2008)

My best Air Canada flight:  Toronto to Tel Aviv 10 years ago.  Whole row to myself.

My worst Air Canada flight:  Vancouver to Ottawa via Toronto on a Sunday night 7 years ago, middle seat, plane full of kids on a school trip.

My preferred air canada flight in 2008:  WestJet


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## TCBF (27 May 2008)

MedTechStudent said:
			
		

> I was waiting for someone to take the other side to that comment.
> 
> I just find their language itself very nasally and congested sounding when they talk.  Same with Czech.



-  You haven't been re-reading the May 1976 National Lampoon's "Foreigners" issue, have you?

http://www.olimu.com/Notes/Foreigners/Foreigners.htm


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## ENGINEERS WIFE (27 May 2008)

Having flown lots I try to avoid Air Canada like the plague.  No major horror stories, just not too many of them seem to enjoy there jobs.
I prefer Westjet.   
My worst flight ever was on KLM, nonstop from Vancover to Frankfurt, Germany.  (I don't know the name of planes, it was huge, not a jumbo, but with 7-8 seats in the middle and 3-4 on the outside)  And we had NO air conditioning, it conked out fairly soon after we got into the air.  It was unbelievably hot and stinky, so, we decided to have a few drinks to take off the edge, still didn' t help.  Luckily, or so we thought, we arrived early by about 1 hr.  So, early we had to take a bus from the airplane to the terminal we were so far away from it.  And then we had to good fortune of them loosing everyone's luggage.   We pleasantly suggested looking on the plane we had just got off, seeing as it was a direct flight.  : 2 1/2 hrs later, somehow they found it.  It was not a great day.


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## MedTechStudent (27 May 2008)

TCBF said:
			
		

> -  You haven't been re-reading the May 1976 National Lampoon's "Foreigners" issue, have you?
> 
> http://www.olimu.com/Notes/Foreigners/Foreigners.htm



No truth be told I'd never even _heard_ of that.


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## adaminc (27 May 2008)

Last night on The Hour (Hillier was the Guest), George was talking about a Scandanavian airliner that cut costs (approx $12m) just by flying 80kph slower, the only cost to the customers was arriving about 10min later.


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## SeaKingTacco (27 May 2008)

Until about two years ago, Air Canada seemed to take sadistic pleasure in losing my luggage.  But, I have to say that in all fairness, I have noticed a great deal improvement in customer service- to the point where I will now fly Air Canada over West Jet. Maybe I have just been lucky


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## a_majoor (10 Jul 2008)

And then they go and do this:

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=0cc9ebb7-bba3-4545-a9fe-be0d84b52748



> *Air Canada flight fiasco*
> 
> Peggy Curan
> Montreal Gazette
> ...


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## Fishbone Jones (11 Jul 2008)

Four pages and nothing at AC has changed. It has only gotten worse. Absolutely and totally disgusting for ANOTHER *tax payer* supported organization. We need real capital commercial corporations in Canada. I'll pay a little extra for a meal and proper, courteous service, just like other carriers. Just like CBC, VIA and the rest. Sink or swim. Cut them off the public teet and let them fend for themselves. If they can't, good riddance. There's lot's of private carriers that will step up and take over. They just don't at the moment, because you can't compete with gov't subsidised, tax payer funded corporations.

 Socialist bullshit.

Now I can go to bed


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## 2 Cdo (11 Jul 2008)

I've never been a supporter of Air Canada until my last trip. I'll describe booking arrangements. I visited all the discount airlines and web pages for flights Ottawa to Edmonton and to my amazement Air Canada had the best prices and best selection of flight timings! 

Arrived at Ottawa airport a little early and went to get my boarding pass, when I was asked if I would like an upgrade to business class. Sounds like a great idea I said. Flight was on-time, food was actually quite good, movie selection was not bad.(I had already seen most of their selection) They even got my bag to the same airport as me. 8)

Return trip was almost the same, without the business class upgrade. I was asked if I would like a seat by the emergency exit as it had more leg room, again I said that sounded great. My baggage again made it to the Ottawa airport. Zero complaints overall.

I realise that this might be a one-off lucky trip as I have had my share of nightmares with Air Canada over the years, primarily with "misplaced" luggage. (With this trip I think I'm running about 50% in "misplaced" luggage)

Just thought I would add a different view. Have a good one.


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## Neill McKay (11 Jul 2008)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Four pages and nothing at AC has changed. It has only gotten worse. Absolutely and totally disgusting for ANOTHER *tax payer* supported organization.



No it isn't.  Air Canada was privatized almost twenty years ago.

Being cut off from the "public teat" doesn't seem to have worked, nor have the expected other private carriers stepped up and provided a solution (though a few have tried).


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## Springroll (11 Jul 2008)

I haven't flown Air canada since December 2001, when they ripped apart my knapsack and diaper bag, pulling every single item out(including my tampons and breast pads because I was still nursing), asked me to remove my shoes and the shoes on two of my three children, and then refused to help me get everything back together. Just left it all spead out on their table. The kids were 5mths, 3.5yr and 7yrs old and I was travelling by myself heading from Vancouver to Ottawa. I understand it was post 9-11, but I was travelling within Canada with a Green Passport...that's gotta mean something if I got less hassle from the US Border Patrol then I did from Air Canada.

I have travelled with WestJet since and am happy to continue giving them my hard earned money.

If I ever need to travel internationally, I will sooner book with a US airline out of vancouver or Seattle then have to deal with Air Canada again.


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## garb811 (11 Jul 2008)

You do realize it isn't the airlines who do the security checks, right?


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## The Bread Guy (11 Jul 2008)

And who takes the hit with high fuel prices?  

Some of those providing service (not to mention safety coverage and assistance if the flight DOESN'T go as planned) directly to the customers.....

Air Canada shares plunge as oil rises to record:  "On Thursday the airline said 632 flight attendants, 9 percent of its in-flight staff, would be let go as part of those cuts."

...not to mention giving you even fewer choices for routes/timings.


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## MedTechStudent (12 Jul 2008)

Well at least that flashy color scheme is not totally light blue like the rest of the fleet(if that the right word, fleet?).  You know that shade of blue that looks a lot like the sky, brilliant.  

Best paint job IMO goes to this Qantas Beauty


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## Grando (12 Jul 2008)

wow there's so much misinformation in this thread


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## MedTechStudent (12 Jul 2008)

Grando said:
			
		

> wow there's so much misinformation in this thread



If that was in regards to our little paint scheme discussion...ok.  ???


And if not, could you perhaps enlighten all us folk? 

That one liner is a little vague.

Cheers,

EDITED TO ADD:   op:


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## aesop081 (12 Jul 2008)

Grando said:
			
		

> wow there's so much misinformation in this thread



Please explain .........


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## Greymatters (13 Jul 2008)

garb811 said:
			
		

> You do realize it isn't the airlines who do the security checks, right?



That's a poor excuse... since when does a mother with three children constitute such a great risk she needs to have even her children's shoes searched and her support gear torn apart?  And then left unaided afterwards to put everything back together while still trying to keep track of three kids?  This is the type of action that draws unnecessary criticism...


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## George Wallace (13 Jul 2008)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> ... since when does a mother with three children constitute such a great risk she needs to have even her children's shoes searched and her support gear torn apart?



Since the British learned the hard way in Aden so many years ago.  Women were, until then, never searched for weapons or explosives/explosive devices.  

So what makes you think a mother of three should be exempt suspicion?


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## aesop081 (13 Jul 2008)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> That's a poor excuse...



No its not. The poster was blaming Air Canada for her family's experience at security when the responsability clearly lies with CATSA.


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## Greymatters (13 Jul 2008)

In regard to the blame, agreed, it falls on CATSA, not Air Canada.

In regard to circumstances of suspicion, Im not talking about women in general being above suspicion of carrying out terrorist acts.  There have been so many female suicide bombers over the decades that to do so would be ludicrous.

Im talking about profiling a line up of people, and a mother with three children being apparently picked out as the person 'most likely to carry out a hostile act' and to be searched completely (along with her children) which does not match any known profile I ever heard of.  If you've heard of an attack being conducted by a mother with three children in tow, Id be glad to hear of it.  

There is also the issue of compassion and responsibility for actions to consider on the part of the security provider.  Its a given that persons searched are responsible for cleaning up and packing their own gear afterwards, but trying to do so with three kids in tow is a problem of greater proportions that every parent understands.  It falls under the category of undue hardship and inconvenience.  Any parent would know how difficult it is to track three kids, never mind trying to repack all your bags afterwards, and a little assistance should be provided.  

Security is a two way street - respect for the authority requesting you submit to inspection, and in turn, respect for the individual being searched, especially when finding that the person being searched has nothing to hide.


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## George Wallace (13 Jul 2008)

Many innocent people have been caught up in this type of profiling.  It is a fact of life.  Many on this site may have had a bad day and matched such a profile.  So tell us all: is it better to be "Safe" or would you rather be "Sorry"?

As for packing up their things afterward: who would you suggest do it?  I know I would prefer to do my own packing, no matter how inconvenienced it may be.  I have had the pleasure of doing some of that with overweight luggage recently.  It is never fun, but again, who would you prefer do it?


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## Kat Stevens (13 Jul 2008)

I recently flew back from Halifax to Edmonton.  My carry on was  dismantled with all the care of a feeding hyena.  I was putting all my stuff back together when a (let's just say a Canadian who didn't live here when the Oilers last won the cup) told me to hurry up as I was blocking things.  I asked him to repeat that, his Sup stepped up and said "He said hurry the Christ up, you're holding up traffic".  THERE'S your respect.


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## Greymatters (13 Jul 2008)

My response is that just because it is the current culture among particular security staff to not give a shit doesnt make it right or acceptable.  "Responsibility for actions" is in play, a principle that many law enforcement agencies follow, or at least claim to.  

Look at this scenario:

A wheelchair could potentially carry a lot of hidden armaments and/or explosives.  Having matched the profile for possible threats, the security agents remove the man from his wheechair and take apart the wheelchair to inspect it.  Nothing is found.  Should the security staff;

a) leave the disabled person to put their wheelchair back together.

a) assist the disabled person with putting their wheelchair back together.

c) put the wheelchair back together for him. 

What is your response?


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## garb811 (13 Jul 2008)

One reason security doesn't help you put your stuff back together is due to liability.  If you re-pack your items you have the ability to check if anything is missing and are SOL if you report something as being lost/stolen later.  If they help you pack your stuff up and you find something missing later, they become a suspect in a theft allegation.  The other reason, of course, is due to manning.  Check points aren't funded and manned to have "x" number of helpers to assist in getting your overstuffed carry on back together, they are manned to clear the expected number of travelers through the checkpoint and for every minute a guy spends helping Mrs Bloggins get her stuff back in a bag is a minute that someone isn't doing what they are actually supposed to be doing.

As for the treatment of the poor mother of three with a green passport...didn't we just go around this topic in the thread where buddy was upset because he had to go through the proper procedure in his DEU?  Parents involve their kids in criminal activities on a not so infrequent basis, just because someone has three kids in tow doesn't get them an automatic by, much the same as traveling in DEU doesn't either.  Number of kids, colour of passport, uniform you're wearing, badge in the wallet as it goes through the X-ray...none of those give you any leeway, nor should they.


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## gaspasser (13 Jul 2008)

Springroll said:
			
		

> I haven't flown Air canada since December 2001, when they ripped apart my knapsack and diaper bag, pulling every single item out(including my tampons and breast pads because I was still nursing), asked me to remove my shoes and the shoes on two of my three children, and then refused to help me get everything back together. Just left it all spead out on their table. The kids were 5mths, 3.5yr and 7yrs old and I was travelling by myself heading from Vancouver to Ottawa. I understand it was post 9-11, but I was travelling within Canada with a Green Passport...that's gotta mean something if I got less hassle from the US Border Patrol then I did from Air Canada.
> 
> I have travelled with WestJet since and am happy to continue giving them my hard earned money.
> 
> If I ever need to travel internationally, I will sooner book with a US airline out of vancouver or Seattle then have to deal with Air Canada again.


My question is...Why were you travelling inside Canada with three kids in tow ON a GREEN passport????   Isn't that for Official travel only??
 ???


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## garb811 (13 Jul 2008)

It used to be the rule that you could only have one passport at a time so, if you were posted out of Canada on a Red or Green passport, you had to turn your blue one in so you had no choice but to travel on your official one.


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## aesop081 (13 Jul 2008)

BYT Driver said:
			
		

> My question is...Why were you travelling inside Canada with three kids in tow ON a GREEN passport????   Isn't that for Official travel only??
> ???



IIRC , Springroll was posted OUTCAN at the time


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## gaspasser (13 Jul 2008)

I don't know about other bases, but here, WOps has your green passport which you have to sign out when travelling on official military business...such as deployment.  I also used to have a blue one for travel, speaking of which I should get it redone soon!  I don't think you're allowed to travel in country on vacation using the green one.  But I could be wrong.   :-\  

CDN A, you could be right.


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## garb811 (13 Jul 2008)

IIRC as well, she was, which is why I had put in "...if you were posted out of Canada...", sorry it wasn't clearer.


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## Greymatters (13 Jul 2008)

garb811 said:
			
		

> One reason security doesn't help you put your stuff back together is due to liability.  If you re-pack your items you have the ability to check if anything is missing and are SOL if you report something as being lost/stolen later.  If they help you pack your stuff up and you find something missing later, they become a suspect in a theft allegation.



Short sleeve shirts, pocketless pants, and monitoring cameras are great for removing liability on this issue.  Its already used for this purpose in other security sectors. 



			
				garb811 said:
			
		

> The other reason, of course, is due to manning.  Check points aren't funded and manned to have "x" number of helpers to assist in getting your overstuffed carry on back together, they are manned to clear the expected number of travelers through the checkpoint and for every minute a guy spends helping Mrs Bloggins get her stuff back in a bag is a minute that someone isn't doing what they are actually supposed to be doing.



Thats exactly my point.  Such manning should  be taken into consideration.  When security actions impose a delay factor on a person undergoing security actions, especially when undegoing a process they have no choice but to accept, such delays and extra actions should be taken into account.  Saying 'you dont have to fly' is BS.  Our country is so large we have no choice but to fly, and the bus and rail options are sub-standard.  Failure to consider public reaction leads to increased criticism and opposition when the whole point of good security is to have everyone happily comply.  To repeat, respect is a two-way street.  



			
				garb811 said:
			
		

> Number of kids, colour of passport, uniform you're wearing, badge in the wallet as it goes through the X-ray...none of those give you any leeway, nor should they.



Nor am I suggesting they should be given leeway if they look suspicious.  In this case, we cant judge because we werent there.  We dont know if she fit the profile or if she just pissed off the luggage inspector who used their authority to exact revenge.  In either case, you dont just dump someone on the curb when they turn out to be 'innocent' of wrongdoing.  Police forces have learned their lesson the hard way on this subject over the past ten year with numerous lawsuits, and it wont be long before someone finally confronts security at an airpiort over this same issue.  "Everyone is a suspect" is an excuse that can be used for only so long before it backfires and kicks you in the teeth.


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## Strike (13 Jul 2008)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> I recently flew back from Halifax to Edmonton.  My carry on was  dismantled with all the care of a feeding hyena.  I was putting all my stuff back together when a (let's just say a Canadian who didn't live here when the Oilers last won the cup) told me to hurry up as I was blocking things.  I asked him to repeat that, his Sup stepped up and said "He said hurry the Christ up, you're holding up traffic".  THERE'S your respect.



My response?  A very polite (albeit loud enough for his coworkers to hear), "I would appreciate it if you would not use the Lord's name in vain."


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## George Wallace (13 Jul 2008)

garb811 said:
			
		

> One reason security doesn't help you put your stuff back together is due to liability.  If you re-pack your items you have the ability to check if anything is missing and are SOL if you report something as being lost/stolen later.  If they help you pack your stuff up and you find something missing later, they become a suspect in a theft allegation.  The other reason, of course, is due to manning.  Check points aren't funded and manned to have "x" number of helpers to assist in getting your overstuffed carry on back together, they are manned to clear the expected number of travelers through the checkpoint and for every minute a guy spends helping Mrs Bloggins get her stuff back in a bag is a minute that someone isn't doing what they are actually supposed to be doing.



Not to mention the fact that one will be asked several times during their "travel process" whether or not they "packed their own luggage".  Now, what would happen at their next security screening if they were to answer in the negative?

As for your example with the wheelchair..........get real.  Use a little bit of common sense and reason.  That is an exceptional case and one that would probably be handled a little differently.


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## visitor (13 Jul 2008)

Air Canada prefers to damage wheelchairs themselves while in the hold, rather than leave it to the security people.


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## Kat Stevens (13 Jul 2008)

Strike said:
			
		

> My response?  A very polite (albeit loud enough for his coworkers to hear), "I would appreciate it if you would not use the Lord's name in vain."



Then I would have been set up for offending the Recent Canadians in the overwhelming majority at airport security.  I just reacted by moving even slower, examining everything for damage, packing and wrapping everything carefully.... I can be a pretty petulant six year old at times, but I'm working on it..... ;D


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## Greymatters (13 Jul 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Not to mention the fact that one will be asked several times during their "travel process" whether or not they "packed their own luggage".  Now, what would happen at their next security screening if they were to answer in the negative?
> 
> As for your example with the wheelchair..........get real.  Use a little bit of common sense and reason.  That is an exceptional case and one that would probably be handled a little differently.



Im not trying to be an asshole by posing a hard example - Im demonstrating that security is guided by society's reactions, and youre damn right it would be handled differently.  Obviously you wouldnt just leave the guy lying there.  Its a clear-cut offensive and unacceptable example to society and whoever did it would get crucified in the press.  

The reasoning still follows on.  If you wouldnt leave a diabled person to clean up security's mess, why is it acceptable to leave a mother with three kids to clean up the mess?  She's not disabled, but certainly handicapped by other responsibilities.  

The police follow this principle when they accidentally raid a house and find they've raided the wrong house.  They dont just walk away, they try to make things right.  The CF and many other allied nations use these principles of respect successfully in our security work overseas when dealing with other cultures.  Why is it so unreasonable to talk about applying the same principles to our security in Canada?


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## visitor (13 Jul 2008)

Air Canada circa: 1990s. Someone gets sick, attendant asks if there is a doctor on board.  Young doctor spends 4 hours standing around babysitting a patient. Flight ends. Patient gets bottle of wine from flight attendant.  Doctor gets nothing. Go figure.


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## Good2Golf (13 Jul 2008)

visitor said:
			
		

> Air Canada circa: 1990s. Someone gets sick, attendant asks if there is a doctor on board.  Young doctor spends 4 hours standing around babysitting a patient. Flight ends. Patient gets bottle of wine from flight attendant.  Doctor gets nothing. Go figure.



Several years ago, AC flight from Frankfurt to Toronto...pax beside me has grand mal seizure.  I help stabilize along with pax's spouse, making sure O2, etc.. provided by cabin crew is OK.  At end of flight, chief steward comes up to me and thanks me for assisting and comforting pax, and offers me a bottle of wine.  I politely declined, mentioning that I'm CF member traveling on business, but thanked him and suggested that he could pick someone randomly on the next flight that really looked like they need a break (frazzled mom with 5 kids, etc...) and pass it on to them.  Sometimes it's the crappy experiences we remember the most...


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## Globesmasher (13 Jul 2008)

BYT Driver said:
			
		

> I don't know about other bases, but here, WOps has your green passport which you have to sign out when travelling on official military business...such as deployment.  I also used to have a blue one for travel, speaking of which I should get it redone soon!  I don't think you're allowed to travel in country on vacation using the green one.  But I could be wrong.   :-\
> 
> CDN A, you could be right.



Prior to 2004 a service member was required to surrender their personal blue Canadian passport in order to have the 2 "official" green Govt passports issued.
I recall quite clearly having to go to 8 Wing Ops between 1995 - 2001 and obtain one of my green passports each time I wished to travel with a Canadian passport in my possession - regardless of whether I am travelling inside Canada or outside.  As a Canadian citizen it is your RIGHT to travel with your Canadian passport whenever and wherever you wish.

What pissed me off each time was trying to argue with the passport clerk to obtain possession of my green passport for my holiday travel becasue WE HAD TO SURRENDER OUR PERSONAL BLUE ONE during in-clearance and issue of the green one.  Canadian service personnel were NOT allowed to be in possession of both the green and the blue passports at the same time. Therefore, one had no choice but to travel on personal holidays with the official green passport.

That all finally changed in 2004.

Canadian service personnel are now allowed to have BOTH issued - thus you can travel with your blue passport (which you obtain at your own personal expense) when on holiday and your green issued Govt passport on official business/duty.

It is good to see that system fixed.


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## visitor (14 Jul 2008)

Good2Golf, Please don't misunderstand. No remumeration was expected and would have have been declined,  but to be taken for granted and not thanked was a bit of a bummer.   Sounds like your crew was classier.


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## Springroll (14 Jul 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> IIRC , Springroll was posted OUTCAN at the time



You are correct.


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## garb811 (14 Jul 2008)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> The police follow this principle when they accidentally raid a house and find they've raided the wrong house.  They dont just walk away, they try to make things right.  The CF and many other allied nations use these principles of respect successfully in our security work overseas when dealing with other cultures.  Why is it so unreasonable to talk about applying the same principles to our security in Canada?


Because what happens at a security check point is not the same as what happens during the execution of a search warrant or what we compensate people for when we damage/destroy property during operations.  

I'll continue the example of a search warrant - if the door gets broken, the house is guarded until it can be secured again, in many instances this is not a permanent fix but rather an ad-hoc one.  It is then up to the property owner to pursue a claim against the crown if they decide they want to have the costs of the permanent fix covered.  If it is essentially a permissive entry, as I go about a location executing the warrant I do not put everything back exactly as I found it - depending on the level of intrusion required.  ie. if I need to empty drawers I will remove all of the contents of the drawers and leave the contents in nice little stacks close to where the drawer is located.  This serves two purposes - again, the person the warrant is being executed on is able to immediately check their belongings and it also leaves a clear indication of what has been searched and what hasn't.  Of course, while I'm executing a search warrant I have the luxury of time (normally) because nobody is standing in line waiting for me to finish up so they can get to their plane before the door closes.

As for your assertion that maybe there should have enough personnel at a check point to allow Mrs Bloggins to be assisted while she puts her stuff back together, perhaps, but who is going to bear the cost of having 1-2 extra people per lane, per check point, per shift whose only duty is to assist people in repacking?


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## CountDC (14 Jul 2008)

garb811 said:
			
		

> As for your assertion that maybe there should have enough personnel at a check point to allow Mrs Bloggins to be assisted while she puts her stuff back together, perhaps, but who is going to bear the cost of having 1-2 extra people per lane, per check point, per shift whose only duty is to assist people in repacking?



I don't get the impression that anyone is saying you would need that many standing around to do it.  The impression I get and agree with is that someone there should have stepped up and assisted - such as the security staff that is doing nothing but watch her or gab to each other while she packs her stuff. Wouldn't hurt them to much have one or two additional staff there to help things flow smoother either.


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## 1feral1 (16 Jul 2008)

Humble devoted members and curious guests, its my turn to rant....

This is Air Canada. Read on. Yes booked thru them on the INet.

Soon I leave for Saskatchewan on a 3 week adventure of shooting, drinking and being a social freak amongst freaks.

Without going PERSEC mode.

I leave here on a Sunday, and arrive 3.5 days later in Saskatchewan, when I have flown five other times door to door in no more than 32 hours. Obvious layover and stupid delays in that 3 days - oh joy or what!

When I leave Saskatchewan, it will take me 4 days to get home, with more layover and delays between flights.

Thats the best booking that Air Canada could do.

I'll think twice next time who I choose to fly with.

Literally seven days wasted in travel time, when it normally is about 60 hrs all up.

Rant off.


Peace, love and harmony, and most importantly - serenity now,

OWDU


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## Edward Campbell (16 Jul 2008)

In case you haven't heard, Wes, Air Canada is not immune to the fuel price woes that beset all airlines.

Air Canada recently announced that it was, flat out, cutting several routes and reducing the frequency of others (e.g. Vancouver-Beijing from daily to three times a week, and Vancouver to Shanghai, from daily to four times a week). That means that almost everyone will have to plan much more carefully if they want or need to maximize _time on the ground_ at their destination. That can be difficult if you cannot be somewhat flexible with leave/travel dates.

Fares are on the rise, service levels (of all sorts) are falling - everywhere: even on Singapore and Cathay Pacific Airlines. Such are the harsh realities of business. Costs *must* be lower than revenues or, eventually, the whole business goes belly up.


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## jzaidi1 (22 Jul 2008)

Air Canada - the morons that run that dilapidated airline could have forseen the higher fuel costs and bargain for fixed rates for fixed length like Southwest did.  Southwest is paying $70 per barrel I believe while the going rate for aviation fuel is much higher.  Hindsight is always 20/20.

J


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## Bruce Monkhouse (22 Jul 2008)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Costs *must* be lower than revenues or, eventually, the whole business goes belly up.



Unless you're the Ontario govt...............


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## Edward Campbell (22 Jul 2008)

Not even governments are immune.

Remember New Zealand in the '80s; its economy "hit the wall" and the crisis prompted demanded a sharp about turn - all the policies successive left wing governments held dear were tossed aside, in the blink of an eye, because the people and the politicians came to understand that countries can go broke if expenditures exceed revenues year after year after year.


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## a_majoor (22 Jul 2008)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Not even governments are immune.
> 
> Remember New Zealand in the '80s; its economy "hit the wall" and the crisis prompted demanded a sharp about turn - *all the policies successive left wing governments held dear were tossed aside, in the blink of an eye, because the people and the politicians came to understand that countries can go broke if expenditures exceed revenues year after year after year.*



Then there IS hope for all of us yet! Ontario looks ready to hit "the wall" real soon now, and the uber case will be next January when president elect (fill in blank) takes a look at the books: will he face the reality and take action using the magic first 100 days, or do we wait for 2012...


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## TCBF (23 Jul 2008)

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> Humble devoted members and curious guests, its my turn to rant....
> 
> This is Air Canada. Read on. Yes booked thru them on the INet. ...



- Why you don't fly Quantas is beyond me...


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## 1feral1 (23 Jul 2008)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> In case you haven't heard, Wes, Air Canada is not immune to the fuel price woes that beset all airlines.
> 
> Air Canada recently announced that it was, flat out, cutting several routes and reducing the frequency of others (e.g. Vancouver-Beijing from daily to three times a week, and Vancouver to Shanghai, from daily to four times a week). That means that almost everyone will have to plan much more carefully if they want or need to maximize _time on the ground_ at their destination. That can be difficult if you cannot be somewhat flexible with leave/travel dates.
> 
> Fares are on the rise, service levels (of all sorts) are falling - everywhere: even on Singapore and Cathay Pacific Airlines. Such are the harsh realities of business. Costs *must* be lower than revenues or, eventually, the whole business goes belly up.



Hi ERC,

My whinge is not about the international portion of my flights, but domestic from Vancouver to Regina, and from Regina to Calgary. Deliberate unnecessary layovers, RON in YVR coming in (arr 0700, depart at 1100 the next day), and RON in YYC (arr 0700 and depart 1430 the next day), going out is just crap as far as I am concerned. I am sure I could have got better flights then I was given considering the tickets were bought well in advance.  Hence my displeasure. Its crap, as I could literally spend about 3 more days at home, and considering its been over 4 yrs, each day is precious.

Cold beers, and of course, happy days,

Wes


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## 1feral1 (23 Jul 2008)

TCBF said:
			
		

> - Why you don't fly Quantas is beyond me...



Next time I'll give the flying roo a go, but like I said above, its the domestic side. However AC international is a shocker.

Quite frankly, I find Air Canada on the same level as China Air, or Air Zimbabwe for that matter  ;D . IMHO Air Canada is a national embarassment.

One would have more entertainment on a C130 than on an Air Canada flight.

Sorry if I have offended any AC employess, but I am sure many would agree  

Happy days,

OWDU


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## Greymatters (23 Jul 2008)

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> Quite frankly, I find Air Canada on the same level as China Air, or Air Zimbabwe for that matter  ;D . IMHO Air Canada is a national embarassment.



Ive heard that the old Russian 'commercial' airline, Aeroflot, was one of the worst in the business.  How would Air Canada compare to them, on a scale of one to ten?

Actually, we should be applying that scale here.  Who would be a 10 out of 10 (best), who would be a 1 (worst), and where do Canadian airlines fit in between?


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## GAP (7 Aug 2008)

Since when is the customer always wrong?
PETER CHENEY From Wednesday's Globe and Mail August 5, 2008 at 9:52 PM EDT
Article Link

James Osborne's journey to customer service hell began at the Sudbury airport, on the morning of June 28. He boarded an Air Canada flight en route to the Turks and Caicos, where he would spend the next few months spearheading a new software venture.

A few hours later, Mr. Osborne was in paradise. But his luggage wasn't. He had packed his bags with everything from his clothes to his college degree, which he planned to mount on the wall to impress clients. Now he was stuck in the Turks and Caicos with nothing but his briefcase.

Lost bags aren't uncommon, but this was merely the first act in a lengthy drama that would provide Mr. Osborne with an unwanted education on customer service in the age of the giant corporation and the outsourced call centre. The rise of global commerce, corporate cost-cutting and efficient yet depersonalized technology has created legions of angry consumers. Millions have called Better Business Bureaus, government consumer watchdog agencies or, in a new twist, posted entries on consumer complaint websites that serve as digital town halls.

In Mr. Osborne's case, the tiny Turks and Caicos airport had no Air Canada counter – not even a contact number. So he started Googling. He tracked down some phone numbers and called from his cellphone, only to find himself in a voicemail labyrinth. He finally got a human being on the line and was told Air Canada would look into the problem. 
More on link


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## 1feral1 (7 Aug 2008)

After I whinged on this website abou the piss poor service and quality of the flight between Auckland and Honolulu, and a dirty great big stuff-around in Honolulu by AC, I somehow by someone got bumped to 1st class from Honolulu to Vancouver.

From LAX to Auckland, please help and ole soldier, and veteran out again  ;D Air NZ is 10 fold better in 1st class than AC. In short a real 1st class.

However, 1st class for me from HNL to Van, just meant a wider seat, nothing more, a rather dismal 5.5 hr flight. It beat cattle class

OWDU


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## a_majoor (12 Aug 2008)

And now, a word from WestJet:

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/francis/archive/2008/05/28/make-2-billion-the-westjet-way.aspx



> *Make $2 billion the Westjet way*
> Posted: May 28, 2008, 4:24 PM by Diane Francis
> 
> Riding a stock market wave or being an oil sheikh isn't rocket science but creating a success in a lousy sector is not only a miracle but something the rest of us can learn from.
> ...


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## Bruce Monkhouse (12 Aug 2008)

I wish they could find my wife's suitcase from her flight back from Calgary this morning........couldn't park in the parcade because of the travel bin on top of the van so I had to circle the area for an hour before they said," Yup, its lost". :


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## Infanteer (13 Aug 2008)

WestJet success story above aside, having flown quite a bit in the last few years I can honestly say that I haven't noticed a dramatic difference between WestJet and Air Canada - I've generally found that AC has had nicer planes due to (I think) recent upgrades to their regional fleets (they got a neat new computer system where you can select the movie).  I've found Westjet to be a bit more cramped, but AC is alot stingier on their weight restrictions and extra baggage (only one piece allowed now).  Both seem to be average airlines.

Going international is a different story.  My father lives in hotels in foreign countries for about one-third of the year.  He says that in general, Airlines and Hotels are the same.  You get the absolute best service in Asia (starting East and moving West).  Europe trails behind, with North America being at the bottom.  He says the best hotels he has ever stayed in were in Hong Kong and that the Best Airlines were Cathay Pacific, Singapore and Emirates.

I have a feeling the who thing is tied to this:



> but this was merely the first act in a lengthy drama that would provide Mr. Osborne with an unwanted education on customer service in the age of the giant corporation and the outsourced call centre. The rise of global commerce, corporate cost-cutting and efficient yet depersonalized technology has created legions of angry consumers. Millions have called Better Business Bureaus, government consumer watchdog agencies or, in a new twist, posted entries on consumer complaint websites that serve as digital town halls.



All in all, my best flight was with British Airways, but that was because I shelled out for Business Class, so they could afford to treat me well.  Flying as a peon is a different story.  For the best "average Joe" flying, I rather like Coast Mountain Air in BC - the little airlines always seem to avoid the nastiness above that we see Air Canada getting hit with....


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## NL_engineer (13 Aug 2008)

Well I found this funny, 



> according to a study last month by J.D. Power, which found customer satisfaction with the airlines in North America has fallen to a three-year low. The report said Air Canada was one of only two airlines covered in the survey that improved, though that's not saying much — the carrier placed dead last in the 2006 survey and now ranks fifth out of nine airlines in its category.



Link


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## kratz (14 Jan 2009)

I read this article and thought of all the comments WRT Air Canada and West Jet. Instead of starting a new thread, I have shared it here:

from CBC.ca



> *Air Canada passenger gets bags back after 23 days*
> Last Updated: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 | 11:13 AM
> 
> An Edmonton woman's lost baggage was returned to her Tuesday after 23 days in limbo.
> ...


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