# Battle Honours and Colours question



## vangemeren (16 Sep 2005)

Theoretically, if a an infantry unit or armour unit is converted to an engineer or artillery unit, what happens to its colours and battle honours?


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## George Wallace (16 Sep 2005)

As long as that Unit exists, it will perpetuate the Battle honours of it's previous incarnations.  There are numerous Units in the CF that have switched roles back and forth over the years.  The Governor Generals Foot Guards are an example of an Infantry Unit, who in the Second World War fought as an Armour Unit.  They still carry their WW II Battle Honours on their Colours.


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## geo (16 Sep 2005)

Interesting question van Gemeren.
If we consider The Elgins - It is obvious that the earned battle honours of the Infantry / armoured unit were earned in the blood, sweat and tears of their past members. So the Unit still retains them BUT

The CME branch carries the distinction "UBIQUE", which translates as "everywhere" - signifying that Engineers have been present and have fought on every front and every battle - thus having right to a monumental list of battle honours. Said list being so large that it would require Colours many yards long and many yards wide - and there being a shortage of Colour Ensigns tall enough to carry said Colours, it was decided that the single designation "UBIQUE" would summ it up quite nicely, thank ou very much (Engineers are known for their humility & skills at understatement )

An Engineer Regiment on ceremonial parades will carry the Canadian Ensign - that's it, that's all.

So as to your question about what would happen to their Regimental Colours.... they would get laid up - either at the Regimental Church or the Regimental Museum/Offcers Mess - as is the tradition of the Regiment when a stand of Colours is "retired". The old colours would no longer be paraded under any cisrcumstance... unless, of course, the Regiment is re-roled back to an Infantry or Armoured role.


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## Michael OLeary (16 Sep 2005)

A-AD-200-000/AG-000
THE HONOURS, FLAGS AND HERITAGE STRUCTURE OF THE CANADIAN FORCES



> Chapter 5 - COLOURS
> 
> SECTION 1
> POLICIES AND PROCEDURES
> ...


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## vangemeren (17 Sep 2005)

Thanks for the replies. I have more questions. From what I understand each unit has its own church. How do they pick the church? Also if a unit is reduced to nil strength (not disbanded), who looks after the colours?


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## Michael OLeary (17 Sep 2005)

Historically, the chapel would normally be selected by the Regiment, and would have been based primarily on the Commanding Officer's decision. In many garrisons, one church was designated the garrison chapel and used by the Regiments that rotated through the station; I would suspect that in many cases it depended upon the religious background of the social group from which the officers and the majority of the other ranks of a regiment were composed.  More recently, in cases where there is no base chapel, particularly for Reserve units, it may vary on a case by case basis between the historical Regimental chapel (where there is one) and the church from which the unit Padre (if there is one) comes from.

As for the laying up opf colours, including preservation and ownership, here is the relevant extract:



> RETIREMENT AND DISPOSAL OF COLOURS
> 
> SECTION 2
> OWNERSHIP AND CONTROL
> ...


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## geo (19 Sep 2005)

Michael..........
Thanks for pointing out the little technicality about the Colour-bearing units converted to Combat Engineers; retaining the right to parade their Colour as, by definition, the Military Engineering Branch, have been awarded an honorary distinction (UBIQUE) "to take the place of all past and future battle honours and distinctions gained in the field." however....... considering that these Colours shall *not be maintained or replaced at public, non-public or private expense* and when the above are worn out, units converted to non-Colour-bearing status shall lay up their Colours.............. so..... you can lay them up now OR lay them up later.... but they will be laid up.


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## vangemeren (20 Sep 2005)

Does the Navy and Airforce have "battle honours" or "colours" in the same context as the army?

P.s what is a good source for Canadian military traditions and practices? (So I don't have to ask all of these questions)

Thanks, Jack


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## George Wallace (20 Sep 2005)

Have you tried going to the source.....DHH?   Try their web site.   That is where all these decisions and regulations are made.


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## geo (20 Sep 2005)

here's the link for DHH

http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dhh/engraph/home_e.asp

note that DIN connection will give you more info & access... unfortunate fact of life 

With respect to the Air force - each unit has it's Squadron "standard" and I believe they are granted "campaign" honours VS battle honours in the army.

The Navy has it's "white ensign" but it does not identify any specific unit/base/ship... then again, they have their "ship's bell"  - no battle honours are carried on their "colours"


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## reccecrewman (27 Sep 2005)

Well, just to toss this out into the ring..................... Why does 12eRBC carry battle honours on it's Guidon?  The battle honours emblazoned on it's Guidon come from the 86th Bn. & Trois Rivieres Regiment.  Funny enough, TRR is still on the orbat, so how is this allowed?  The Windsor Regiment carries a Guidon with no battle honours because the personnel from that Regiment was used as a replacement pool for the 1st Hussars, Ontario Regiment &  Governer Generals Horse Guards............... so, why can't the Windsor Regiment carry battle honours those Regiments earned with the assistance of the Windsors crewman????


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## geo (27 Sep 2005)

Reserve 12RBC is the RTR (or TRR).....in Trois Rivieres (Three Rivers)     -
 don't think TRR is still on the Orbat from where I sit (LFQA Puzzle Palace) 
if you would, the Regulars are like..... their 2nd Battalion.

lots of things have been done
Hmmm.... Regiment de Chateauguay became 4 R22R and carry all the R22R battle honours
Regiment de St Hyacinthe became the 6 R22R and carry all the R22R battle honours
Fusiliers du St Laurent were "supposed to become the 5R22R but changed their minds..... so there is this weird gap between 4 & 6

Hmmm..... Original Battalion of Black Watch carries the designation 3RHRofC.... while the "new" battalions of Black Watch have come and gone and are now reduced to nill strength...

Am certain that I could pull a couple of other "weird" ones for you..... don't have an answer for you on the Windsor Reg't other than to state that the Regiment's founders figured they could stand on their own without having to make up history.


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## GGHG_Cadet (27 Sep 2005)

My affiliated regiment, the Governor General's Horse Guards carry a standard, what is the difference between a standard and a guidon?


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## Michael Dorosh (28 Sep 2005)

reccecrewman said:
			
		

> so, why can't the Windsor Regiment carry battle honours those Regiments earned with the assistance of the Windsors crewman????



Where do you draw the line?


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## geo (28 Sep 2005)

GGHG_Cadet said:
			
		

> My affiliated regiment, the Governor General's Horse Guards carry a standard, what is the difference between a standard and a guidon?


Hmmm...
- in it's most simple answer - 
Defenitions: 
Guidon: A small flag or pennant carried as a standard by a military unit.

Standard: A flag, banner, or ensign, especially:
a. The ensign of a chief of state, nation, or city.
b. A long, tapering flag bearing heraldic devices distinctive of a person or corporation.
c. An emblem or flag of an army, raised on a pole to indicate the rallying point in battle.
d. The colors of a mounted or motorized military unit.

Guidons carried by: RCH, SherH,12RBC, RdeHull, 8CH
Standards.... GGHG

But... hey.... I'm part of the CME branch and I have no Regimental Colours


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## George Wallace (28 Sep 2005)

Standards are held by "Guards" Regiments.  There are only two in Canada designated as 'guards', the Governor General's Horse Guards and IV Princess Louise Dragoon Guards (who were placed on the Supplementary Order of Battle (SOB) in 1964 by the Suttie Commission.)

Up to 1951, only former cavalry units designated as dragoon and 'horse' regiments had been entitled to carry guidons or standards.  This excluded the hussar regiments and any regiment that had originated as an infantry unit.  In 1951, the British Army ruled that all armoured units, regardless of their origins, would be entitled to carry a Guidon or Standard.  The Canadian Army adopted this policy also.


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## geo (28 Sep 2005)

thank you George

Chimo!


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## reccecrewman (1 Oct 2005)

Correct me if I'm wrong George, but does our Unit not have both?  I'm pretty sure I've seen a Kings Standard located in F-104.  I know we don't carry one now but did we not used to carry a Kings Standard?


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## George Wallace (1 Oct 2005)

Actually, it is the "King's Banner".   It was presented to The Royal Canadian Dragoons in 1904 by his Excellency the Governor General of Canada, The Earl of Minto, on behalf of His Royal Highness King Edward VII in recognition of services rendered to the Empire in South Africa.   The RCR received one at the same time.


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## geo (2 Oct 2005)

are these standards (kings banner) unit specific or are they similar to the "silk ensigns" (union jack) that a large number of units received during ww1?


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## George Wallace (2 Oct 2005)

Standards are Unit Specific.

Although the King's Banner is Unit specific, it probably falls into your latter category.


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## warrickdll (3 Mar 2006)

A slightly older thread but, prompted by a couple of recent threads:
-	Unit rerolling in the Italian Campaign thread (http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/3079/post-33009/topicseen.html#msg33009); and
-	Unit lineage in the 1812 Battle Honours thread (http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/26205.0.html)

Is there anyone in favour of having the artillery and engineers (and perhaps others) using a similar Battle Honours system as the Infantry or Armoured units? Or is Ubique pretty much set?


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## Long in the tooth (5 Aug 2006)

The GG unit commendation has been presented to a few Regiments recently to recognize actions overseas.  Quite rightly, too.  These awards seem to me to have a divisive effect later on as it is also an individual award.  IMHO with the number of casualties and stellar performance in Kandahar, the PPCLI should be awarded a Battle Honour for the colours.  Once again, IMHO these have a more unifying effect on the soldiers as they belong to all the members, and passes on the history of the Regiment to even the newest member.

It avoids the 'I was actually there and earned it' syndrome.  Or in this age is the GG award the most appropriate?  A battle honour award would be significant and also teach newer generations the significance of what's already on the Regimental colours.  

Any thoughts?


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## geo (6 Aug 2006)

Interesting point....
Units and troops who fought in Korea earned their unit(s) a "Korea" battle honour.
2VP also earned a US presidential citation.

because we're in a peacemaking role, I would  venture to say that an "Afghanistan" battle honour should be considered.


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## Teddy Ruxpin (6 Aug 2006)

Gents:  already being discussed here:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/27435.0.html


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## GunnerO (7 Aug 2006)

Geo Thanks I'm glad you mentioned the PPCLI in Koreafor winning that battle honour, it was at Kap Yong.Korea was also considered a "police action" at the time,what ever that means. So what is Afganistan? A war,a conflict, a police action? Oh did the Van doos win a battle honour for Korea as well?


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## Michael OLeary (7 Aug 2006)

GunnerO said:
			
		

> Oh did the Van doos win a battle honour for Korea as well?



33.1 BATTLE HONOURS - UNITED NATIONS OPERATIONS - KOREA 1950-53

31 Mar 58



> The regiments of the Canadian Army eligible for Korean battle honours are:
> 
> Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians) (2nd Armoured Regiment)
> The Royal Canadian Regiment
> ...



http://regimentalrogue.com/battlehonours/koreanwar-btlhnrs.htm

Battle Honours of the Canadian Army
Royal 22e Régiment
http://regimentalrogue.com/battlehonours/bathnrinf/03-r22er.htm



> Korean War
> 
> Conflict - United Nations Operations - Korea, 1950-1953
> 
> ...


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## Gorgo (8 Dec 2008)

van Gemeren said:
			
		

> Does the Navy and Airforce have "battle honours" or "colours" in the same context as the army?
> 
> P.s what is a good source for Canadian military traditions and practices? (So I don't have to ask all of these questions)
> 
> Thanks, Jack



To answer about Navy ships, they do carry battle honours, but those are displayed on a plaque that's displayed on the quarterdeck of a ship (for an actual ship) or displayed on the quarterdeck in the main entrance hallway (in the main building of each of the Navy Reserve divisions).  The battle honours are passed down for each ship that shares the name.  For example, HMCS _Saguenay_, my old destroyer (pendant number DDH-206), technically perpetuates the original HMCS _Saguenay_ (pendant number D-79), which was awarded the battle honour *ATLANTIC 1939-1942*.  The Naval Reserve divisions, such as HMCS _Queen_ in Regina, inherited the same thing from the old British ships of the same name, hence its battle honour roll includes *USHANT 1781*, *FIRST OF JUNE, 1794*, *CROIX ISLAND, 1795*, *CRIMEA, 1854-55*, *DARDANELLES, 1915*, *ATLANTIC, 1944*, *NORWAY, 1945* and *ARCTIC, 1945*, which were all earned by the past HM Ships _Queen_ that had served in the British Navy.


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## geo (8 Dec 2008)

WRT the Airforce....
a picture beats a thousand words.....

439 "Tiger" squadron


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## Nfld Sapper (8 Dec 2008)

Come on geo, lets bring out the measuring stick and show what our battle honours would look like  ;D


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## geo (8 Dec 2008)

Nfld Sapper
Youn know that there isn't an Colour officer tall enough to carry all the battle honours of the CME
As per the decision of our Sovereign (Victoria) we should use the single "UBIQUE" which is to mean "Everywhere" cause sappers can be found everywhere

(PS... this is not to be confused with the "UBIQUE" or the Artillery, which is to mean "all over the place" cause gunners can & do shoot - all over the palce > )


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## Michael OLeary (8 Dec 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Youn know that there isn't an Colour officer tall enough to carry all the battle honours of the CME



You would just have to get around those pesky eligibility condtions:



> 7.    Honours may be awarded in respect of service in either an armoured or an infantry role to:
> 
> (a)     regiments which are entitled by custom to carry colours. This category includes
> 
> ...



In particular, this one:



> 8.    Regiments and units of other arms and of the services are not eligible for awards.



http://regimentalrogue.com/battlehonours/secondworldwar-btlhnrs.htm


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## geo (8 Dec 2008)

Oh Michael... this is old stuff....
You have to rememember that, around the 1850s when Victoria was Queen Empress, one of her sons was an officer in the Corp or Royal Engineers.
I'll have to dig up the story.... but, if the Queen Empress was his mother..... there are many things that could and probably did happen.


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## davidk (8 Dec 2008)

Something of an aside from the current discussion, but still fits under the general topic of battle honours and colours...

Why is it that most Canadian units (which have colours) only list their battle honours on the regimental colour, while the two Guards regiments carry them on the Queen's colour as well?


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## geo (11 Dec 2008)

HighlandIslander said:
			
		

> Something of an aside from the current discussion, but still fits under the general topic of battle honours and colours...
> 
> Why is it that most Canadian units (which have colours) only list their battle honours on the regimental colour, while the two Guards regiments carry them on the Queen's colour as well?


Have checked - effectifely, CGG & GGFG both carry the same battle honours on both Regimental & Royal colours.
Off the top of my head, I would suggest it is just another one of these "guard things".
There are many "quiffs" that can be attributed to the Guards.. as in, Guards don't stand for the loyal toast - cause the guards have always been loyal - even during Cromwell's rebellion & do not have to prove it.  (yeah, yeah - had it all explained to me wayback when by A CGG RSM)


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## davidk (11 Dec 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> There are many "quiffs" that can be attributed to the Guards.. as in, Guards don't stand for the loyal toast - cause the guards have always been loyal - even during Cromwell's rebellion & do not have to prove it.  (yeah, yeah - had it all explained to me wayback when by A CGG RSM)



But the Coldstream Guards (who the GGFG are patterned after) were raised by Cromwell to fight the monarchists. How can the GGFG justify their claim of "always loyal"?


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## dapaterson (11 Dec 2008)

Two Guards regiments?  There are in fact three Guards regiments within the Reserves, and another on the Supplementary Order of Battle.

They are, of course,  the Governor General's Horse Guards; the Governor General's Foot Guards; the Canadian Grenadier Guards, and the Canada Guards.


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## davidk (11 Dec 2008)

dapaterson, thanks for the reminder, though I was in fact referring to the two PRes Infantry Guards regiments, as my query relates to colours, not the guidon carried by the GGHG.


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## Old Sweat (11 Dec 2008)

Actually it was The Canadian Guards. And don't forget the 4th Princess Louise Dragoon Guards.


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## Drummy (11 Dec 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Have checked - effectifely, CGG & GGFG both carry the same battle honours on both Regimental & Royal colours.
> Off the top of my head, I would suggest it is just another one of these "guard things".
> There are many "quiffs" that can be attributed to the Guards.. as in, Guards don't stand for the loyal toast - cause the guards have always been loyal - even during Cromwell's rebellion & do not have to prove it.  (yeah, yeah - had it all explained to me wayback when by A CGG RSM)



As a member of The Canadian Guards, both as 031 and 871, I attended many mess dinners and played at many more. We always stood for the Loyal Toast.

Drummy


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## davidk (11 Dec 2008)

Come to think of it, isn't it the Navy that remains seated for the Loyal Toast?


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## geo (11 Dec 2008)

Navy remains seated .... One of the royal princes was on an HMS for a mess dinner.  Bashed his head on one of the wooden beams (low cieling)..... he decreed that thereafter, Navy would remain seated for their toasts.

WRT Drummy's comment..... I know what you're saying but, I have a feeling that the CGG have adopted traditions of their Imperial brothers..... which is how they ended up using the guards brigade patch as a background for their cap badge.


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## George Wallace (11 Dec 2008)

HighlandIslander said:
			
		

> Come to think of it, isn't it the Navy that remains seated for the Loyal Toast?



Yes.  Tradition due to low ceilings in old sailing ships and rough seas.


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## dapaterson (11 Dec 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Yes.  Tradition due to low ceilings in old sailing ships and rough seas.



... and one too many splices of the main brace  >


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## John Nayduk (11 Dec 2008)

Does anyone have a quick link for battle honours in the DIN?


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## Michael OLeary (11 Dec 2008)

Another Recce Guy said:
			
		

> Does anyone have a quick link for battle honours in the DIN?



What are you looking for?


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## John Nayduk (13 Dec 2008)

I guess this is whee my thoughts were taking me (from a related post from February 2007);

RHFC_piper raises an intersting point regarding the percentage of a unit involved in an operation to be eligible for a Battle Honour. From the reference noted above:
Quote
Normally, the rule that will be applied is that headquarters and at least fifty percent of the sub-units of a unit must have been present.
However, the following should also be noted:
Quote
There may be exceptional cases where individual squadrons or companies took an important part in certain operations, and in such cases any claims submitted will be treated on their merits.
Notably, it is not exceptional in the current method of Task Force structures for individual subunits to be deployed with Battle Groups built on HQs from other regiments.  These company/squadrons (under command) do not normally deploy and fight by their Corps doctrines at the sub-unit level, nor are they operating independently, so these paragraphs don't quite apply:
Quote
Two particular extensions of this rule will be allowed for as follows:
(a)     where units such as armoured regiments, armoured car regiments, reconnaissance regiments or machine-gun battalions fought on a squadron or company basis, with squadrons or companies being attached to brigades or battalions for operations, honours may be awarded where fifty percent of the squadrons or companies were engaged without their regimental or battalion headquarters~. Where a unit had sub-units committed simultaneously to different operations only one award covering anyone period of time will be made;
(b)     where a regiment was represented in a theatre only by a squadron or a company operating independently, such as the independent machine gun company in an armoured division, honours may be awarded on the basis of fifty percent of the troops or platoons being present in battle. Where such troops or platoons were committed simultaneously to different operations, only one award will be made to cover anyone period of time.
This is one of the points that would require further analysis and, possibly, the updating of the terms and conditions for award of Battle Honours.   It is, for reasons described above, and this requirement to redefine conditions for Battle Honours that any expectations that Battle Honours should be awarded in the near term would be premature.


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## Michael OLeary (13 Dec 2008)

You'll find the Army Orders on battle honours for the First and Second World Wars and Korea here:

http://regimentalrogue.com/battlehonours/battle_honours.htm

And this is my post you were referencing:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/27435/post-524427.html#msg524427

See also Chapter 3 of THE HONOURS, FLAGS AND HERITAGE STRUCTURE OF THE
CANADIAN FORCES (A-AD-200-000/AG-000)


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## Dennis Ruhl (17 May 2009)

Battle honours seem to be rife with inconsistancy based on political expediency and the stubbornness or personal views of the committee of the day making the decision.  One only battalion of the Royal Canadian Regiment generated the battle honour "South Africa, 1899-1900" for themselves and 17 militia regiments.  About 22 regiments received the battle honour "Northwest Canada, 1885" even though most of them were hundreds of kilometres from any battle.  In WWI militia regiments were awarded battle honours both by directly perpetuating fighting units and by contributing troops to particular battles using a formula.

Then came WWII.  Battle honours were only awarded by direct participation of the named unit in battle or in a couple cases of a unit organized overseas but fighting under the name of a militia unit.  For the first time provision of troops to a fighting unit earned no battle honours.   Then came Korea with the ultimate chintziness in battle honours.  There were 6 to 8 serious battles but only one individual battle was honoured in addition to the campaign.  I suspect the committee selecting the Korean War battle honours was using the big war/big casualty WWII criteria as opposed to even a middle ground.


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## Kilted (30 Sep 2020)

Does anyone know where I can find copies of General Orders online, particularly ones related o WWI Battle Honours and CEF Battalion Perpetuations?


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## Michael OLeary (30 Sep 2020)

Kilted said:
			
		

> Does anyone know where I can find copies of General Orders online, particularly ones related o WWI Battle Honours and CEF Battalion Perpetuations?



Canadian Army Battle Honours
http://www.regimentalrogue.com/battlehonours/battle_honours.htm
The indivudual unit pages identify the referenced General Orders for perpetuated Honours in the "Remarks" column.

G.O. 6 / 1928 - CONDITIONS OF AWARD OF BATTLE HONOURS FOR THE GREAT WAR 1914-1919
http://www.regimentalrogue.com/battlehonours/firstworldwar-btlhnrs.htm

CAMPAIGNS, BATTLES AND OTHER ENGAGEMENTS IN WHICH CANADIAN TROOPS PARTICIPATED IN THE GREAT WAR 1914-1919
http://www.regimentalrogue.com/battlehonours/firstworldwar-btlhnrslist2.htm

Perpetuation of the Units of the Canadian Expeditionary Force (C.E.F.), 1914-1919
http://www.regimentalrogue.com/cef_perpetuation/cef_perpetuation.htm

Canada Gazette
https://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/canada-gazette/index-e.html

Here are the three main General Order lists for CEF Battle Honours, I have uplaoded scans to my website stotage:

http://www.regimentalrogue.com/battlehonours/GO-110-1929_Battle_Honours_List_No_1.pdf
http://www.regimentalrogue.com/battlehonours/GO-123-1929_Battle_Honours_List_No_2.pdf
http://www.regimentalrogue.com/battlehonours/GO-71-1930_Battle_Honours_List_No_3.pdf


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## Gorgo (1 Oct 2020)

Pity that those units existing in the time before the 1936 Militia reforms who did send people to the CEF didn't AT LEAST get the "Great War" battle honour to show they contributed to that.


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## Kilted (6 Oct 2020)

The reason I am looking into this is because my units battle honours from WWI come from a battalion we do not perpetuate, 4th Battalion, CEF. However, we received the battle honours because if the number of men we contributed to the Battalion. However, we only received 9 out of 21 battle honours, which almost seem to have been picked at random because they occur throughout the whole war, but battle honours from in-between some of the ones we have are missing.


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