# CFB Cold Lake Thread- Merged



## Bert

For those who have been to CFB Cold Lake, is it a good posting?  How is the community and base activities?  I searched the internet for general information about the base and the community but theres nothing that provides a decent overview or context.  Any links will be appreciated.  CFB Cold Lake is my posting after BMQ this winter.


----------



## Garry

Yes.

Lots of shopping, fishing and hunting ok, 3 hours to Edmonton, housing expensive, lots of empty PMQ‘s. Nice area, lots of trees and water, good schools, reasonably safe streets.

Need any more info? Just ask.

Cheers-Garry


----------



## shaun_bougie

Bert,

What are you being posted at CFB Cold Lake for?  Which trade? I should say.  I hope you enjoy it.

Shaun


----------



## Bert

I‘m going Air Force in the ATIS (226) MOC.


----------



## Garry

http://www.coldlake.com


----------



## shaun_bougie

Bert,

That‘s a cool trade.  I myself am going for Military Police.  Still waiting for the MPAC.  Getting very very excited about it now.  It‘s slated for end of January.  I‘ll find out if I‘m going the first week of January.  Hopefully it‘s a go.  Good luck with everything.

Shaun


----------



## Bert

Thanks for the info Garry.  Good luck with the MPAC and the process Shaun.


----------



## childs56

since the threads are on going, thought i would ask about the PMQ's in Cold Lake, how much is heat hydro water and all that fine stuff. Also how decent is the rental market up their. I have tried to do searches on it but seems to be to no avail. Thanks in advance for any info


----------



## Calculator Jockey

Hey there! Well from one living in a Q up here in the Cool Pool, I can give you what I pay and go from there.

I have a three bedroom bungalow (I think it is around 1200 square feet) Rec room in the basement and a 1/2 bath off the master bedroom (lots of space). I pay $670 a month for rent, MQ utilities is sitting at approx $12.00/mth. Gas is on the equal payment plan of $75/mth, electricity runs around $120 during the winter months and approx $70 in the summer months. Some of the 4 bdrm homes (both stand alones and duplexes) can run upwards of $800/mth for rent.

Renting up here is unbelieavable for prices, if you want a decent 3 bdrm house you could be looking upwards of $900 + . If all you are looking for is an apartment (good luck with that) the prices are still high for what you get. Not much high end apartments here (never been in one, but they don't look good from the outside. They are building new condos, etc. but don't know if they will be for rent or purchase.

Housing prices have sky rocketed up here from when I got here in '97. I originally bought and paid $112,000 for a three bedroom house in the nicer area of Cold Lake south, that same house is now going for $180,000 +!!!! I sold when I thought the market hit its peak, boy was I wrong!  :crybaby:

From what I hear the vacancy rate for rentals is very slim pickings, not only are you competing with of course the base personnel but also the oil rig guys. Building is at an all time high here for housing.

What a lot of guys do is go for the PMQ at first then do some research and then end up buying in town.

If you need any other info just ask. After being here for 8 years, I pretty well know what is going on around.


----------



## childs56

Thanks alot. I applied for a PMQ today. I know what you mean about the housing situation up their, Things are looking crazy. I phoned around to apartment rental places, needless to say as you said their is nothing their to rent. Again thanks


----------



## I_am_John_Galt

Presumably you've already seen this(?) ... http://www.cfha-alfc.forces.gc.ca/locations/coldlake_h_e.asp


----------



## Calculator Jockey

Not a problem. Anytime for a new Cool Pooler   Good luck and enjoy the area and what it has to offer! 

Any other questions don't hesitate in PMing me.


----------



## childs56

Thanks alot for the replys. it has helped out to set up a budget more so then any other info that is attainable from DND sources. I will be up their on the 21 of July so maybe see some of you. Again thanks for the info.


----------



## childs56

just received a reply for a PMQ on willow crescent. whoo hooo i guess.


----------



## Calculator Jockey

That is in the Beaver Area of the PMQs, not a bad area. And yes whoo hoo would be right as at least you are not on a waiting list.


----------



## Grunt_031

I am possibly getting posted to CFB Cold Lake this summer. I was looking for some comments on where is the best place/area to purchase house in Cold Lake or surrounding area.

Thanks

grunt_031


----------



## Harbo0909

Hey, New to the forum and have been trying to do some research as am being commissiond to 2. Lt at end of the month and have been posted for 8 months to Cold Lake for OJT before heading to NAV CAN in Cornwall (AEC).  I have just finished the ROTP programme at University of Western Ontario and just want to get some info about the base as lots of scatter info everywhere.  I was curious as to what barracks are like for single members on base (Kitchen or sitting area possible) ? Possible costs if known? as well as current ration pricing as I haven't been paying rations in quite sometime.  Nightlife, if anything exists? Any comment on the Palm Springs golf course, as I am an avid golfer.  Summer time weather, as I am coming from smoggy, hot and humid GTA.  Any other info would be greatly appreciated

Thanks in advance!!


----------



## childs56

Cold Lake will be a shocker to you if you like the night life. 
There are 4 bars between Cold Lake and Bonneyville. At least there was. If you like to party with the girls, dont. Nothing worse then getting the Hiv or Syphillis. If you do wrap it up for the whole night. Being an officer you wouldnt participate in those types of things. 
More then a few pubs. Most of them are good for food and laugh. 
It is real cold in the winter and real hot in the summer. It is windy there most of the time. 
The food in the mess is great, as for accomadations, I cannot comment on what the officers have, but the enlisted were two to a room and had no heat for part of the winter where I was living. 

The golf course is pretty decent. If you look hard enough you will find a few golf courses in the area that offer excellant golfing.  
If you want to buy a large screen TV, or stereo or anything worth buying, get it before you go there. It is hard to get good service from the stores. You will find out on your own. 

The people are generally good. Treat the locals with the respect you want. 

If you like fishing, quadding or hunting, It is a great spot to be. I highly recommend that you try these otu if you havent already. 

Good luck. 
Remember it is only Cold for 9 months of the year.


----------



## BernDawg

Counterpoint:
    My family and I have been here for 6 yrs now and the ONLY reason we aren't fighting my posting this summer is because it's to Comox.  We love it here but then again I obviously don't live on base and don't eat in the mess.
     I just finished an OPME here and there were 4 (I think) pers on it in the same boat as you're going to be so I would assume that you'll have plenty of time to catch up on some schooling if it's required.
    Take up fishing.  There's no doubt you'll meet someone here that will invite you so take them up on it.  Great way to spend a Saturday and on some of the lakes around here your arm will get tired from reeling them in!
    Great gym and PSP staff.  They offer mtn bike rentals and there are some pretty good trails here too (lookout for the quads).  You can sign for some fishing gear too if you need it.
    If you have a car bring it.  The town is pretty spread out and cabs cost a small fortune.  The clubhouse at PSGC or Northern Spirit Liesure Center is brand new and the course is pretty good from what I can tell as I'm not a golfer except for the occasional Sqn sports day.
    If you have any other questions I can help with let me know.

Cheers.
Bern


----------



## Retired AF Guy

I was stationed in CFB Cold Lake from 1984-88 and the last time I was there was in 1996 so my information is somewhat out of date. However, I would like to refute some of the comments made by CTD. First, a little background on Cold Lake. When I was there were three main population centres; 4 Wing CFB Cold Lake (Medley), Grand Centre and Cold Lake itself. The fact that there are two  three separate places called Cold Lake (CFB Cold Lake, Cold Lake the village and Cold Lake itself) can be confusing. In 1996, the three centres amalgamated into Cold Lake and incorporated as a city in 2000. This website http://www.coldlake.com/siteengine/activepage.asp can provide you some background info.  

Unless things have really, really changed since I was last there I have to disagree with the comments by CTD. First off, about the night life. I was in my mid-twenties when I was there and never had a problem finding a place to go partying in the evenings or weekends. At that time the population was about 4-5000 in Grand Centre and I can think of at least seven bars/night clubs/lounges that I used to hangout at. So, I'm not sure where CTD is getting the idea that there are only "4 bars between Cold Lake and Bonneyville." (Bonneyville is the next largest population centre about 20 miles down the road). There were also several restaurants that you could eat at.  

As for the girls, during the four years I was there I might some the best looking, nicest girls you could find anywhere. So again, I'm not sure how CTD can make the statement about all the women having HIV or VD. 

I found the people very friendly and easy to get along with. I will point out that I was born just across the border in Saskatchewan so I had a common background with the locals. One thing, don't confine yourself to the base and military co-workers. When I was there I spent most of my time with civilian friends downtown and had a good time.

I do agree with CTD about the weather - hot in summer and cold in winter. In the summer I spent a lot of my time hiking and sometimes almost got eaten alive by the mosquitoes. No skeeters in winter, but you do have the Northern Lights which are outstanding!

I also agree with BernDawg about bringing a car (or truck/SUV). Cold Lake is out in the middle of nowhere and the major population centres are  some distance away (Lloydminister is about 1 hour and Edmonton about two hours or so). 

Cold Lake is the perfect place to be if like outdoor activities. Tourism is the number three business right now. I did a lot of hunting when I was there. Lots of places to go fishing.  

Can't comment to much on base accommodation's as when I was last there I was on TD and I stayed in transient quarters, but they had built newer quarters from when I was stationed there. There is a large CANEX on base with a family restaurants and bar. 

Hope this helps out. Again, its been a while since I was last there, but I can't think that things are as bad as CTD makes out. BernDawg can fill you in more than I can. 
Ciao!


----------



## aesop081

CTD said:
			
		

> Being an officer you wouldnt participate in those types of things.



What in God's name is that supposed to mean ?


----------



## airiedd

I am currently living in Cold Lake, the bar scene has dropped off here in recent years but with Maple Flag coming I am sure there will be people opening up new bars in old locations. I am told that the officers mess is not too bad, but you will find alot of people (officers and NCMs) start on Firdays at the pub on base (called: North 54).  If you are very serious about your night life, go to Edmonton.  Lloydminster does get some good bands in and it is alot closer but you will not get the 'big city' feel as it is an oil and farming comunity.  As mentioned above, there are some people carting around some things you would not want to pick up (HIV, STD) but that pretty much goes for anywhere these days.  Cold Lake does not have a higher rate than anywhere else.  Golf, the course on base is really good, the one off base is not too bad either. As for R&Q, I hear that the mess is not to bad for food (it is an all ranks dinning area).  For the cost of quarters, check the 4 Wing DIN site, they may be listed, or give accommodations a call.  Good luck, bring a car!!


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Forgot to ask in my first post, but: What the heck is "quadding?"


----------



## BernDawg

Bootin' around on yer four-wheeler!


----------



## observor 69

Last time I was there was 1981. If you are going ATC Cold Lake is great for lots of aircraft activity.  Should be very useful for someone soon to go to Cornwall.

 Maple Flag is a great experience, you will be exposed to a tremendous variety of military aircraft that can't be duplicated easily.

I can't comment on off work aspects as I was on course every time I was there, ie. no car.

I found a great base spirit simply because there were not many off base options.

I did get a little exposure to the "Western" mindset, reminds me a little of Texas. Pickup trucks as the family car, huntin', fishin'.

Good Luck, make it what you want it to be.


----------



## BernDawg

Baden  Guy said:
			
		

> I did get a little exposure to the "Western" mindset, reminds me a little of Texas. Pickup trucks as the family car, huntin', fishin'.


Whatdayamean??  Reminds you of Texas?  We are Canadas Texas!  The only things missing are the openly worn handguns. (mostly)


----------



## big_johnson1

I've spent a lot of time up in Cold Lake for short periods of TD (from a couple days to a few months at a stretch).. These were between '99 and '04, so what I remember may be different now.

Nightlife was decent, although the bars tended to go up and down in popularity. You just need to find the one (or ones) that are hot at the time you're there. Car is very important, because, as was mentioned, it is not cheap to take cabs all the time to and from downtown. If you make some friends though you'll be sure to find some people to split the fare with. It also gives you a chance to check out stuff in and around the town (I brought my mountain bike and had some fun, but listen for the quads and the occasional bear). The golf club was nice enough, but I'm no connoisseur. Junior ranks was also pretty nice, right by the transient quarters. Good place to go play a game of pool or darts.

Mess food was really good, and they had (this may have changed) a nice a la carte menu. Most of the guys I knew were Pte/Cpl types with single rooms, typical military base fare. The transient quarters (Maple Flag Inn) are fantastic though, with your own phone line (base local, need a phone card for LD or you can call other bases for an outside line), tv with cable, bar fridge, and maid service. You have a sink in the room, and share a toilet and shower/bath (depending on the room) with the room next to you. Unless Maple Flag was on it was rare to actually have someone in the room next door though.


----------



## childs56

The bars are Legends (lots of young girls and pretty gross to go to, toilets backing up), Camels Toe(lots of young girls usually not to busy), Stars the famous Gay Lesbian bar( i think it got shut down), In Bonneyville you have the Zoolander or wetlander. It is pretty good Thursday nights.  
There are numerous pubs/ drinking establishments. Wednesday nights is wing night at the Marina View, decent wings. Club 41 Fridays is Keroke.  Like I said there are alot of pubs/ drinking places.

As for the STD situation., If you must go into town, go talk to the Pre Med tech first. Yes Syphillis was a major issue last year in Cold Lake as was HIV. Dont listen to me, go find out. 

As stated if you have a Vehicle bring it.

Lots of great fishing/hunting and such. 

I am sorry if my view is jaded about Cold Lake, but if you have a family it is a wonderfull place to be. If you are single and there for more then Maple Flag it sucks. Plain and simple.    Simple and to the point. 
For those who wonder how my views are or question me, I spent 18 months there. Living the amazing life. There is a reason why young people are leaving Cold Lake. 

I hope that you have a good time there.


----------



## infamous_p

Interesting. I myself am doing a CT/OT for pilot within the Air Force, with the ultimate goal of Cold Lake in mind (as it currently stands). If any others have any info or experiences (both good or bad) about Cold Lake, please continue to add... I am also quite interested about life both off and on that specific base.


----------



## big_johnson1

It's just like anywhere, it's only as good as you make it. If you go in there thinking it's going to be misery, it'll probably be misery.


----------



## mover1

Cold Lake is what you will make of it. I was there from 95-03. Just as long as you have a good click of Freinds to hang with, and your open to new experiences you will be laughing. 
Rugby, baseball, hockey, fishing , hunting, going to the show, weekend trips to Edmonton or Calgary, a days drive from Banff or Jasper. Your off time will be filled with lots of things to do.
Work is steady which is good. There is always something going on. 
Women....There are lots NO THEY ARE NOT ALL HIV/VD CARRIERS. Just play safe and follow your ROE's when picking up a stange piece of tail. 

So go check it out for yourself.  Make your own decision.


----------



## Zam 041

Ok here is my 2 cents on the "Cool Pool" ,my memories are a little faded I was posted there from 1990 to 1994.It was a great place,lots of outdoor activities and a pretty scenic place,cept for out in the muskeg which was pretty bleak,nothing but muck and jackpines. The Base itself was pretty well run back then,I worked at PLER so I didnt really hang about on the main base. I do remember Club 41 could get rocking pretty good sometimes,not sure what the Officers mess was like but Aircrew are known to have a good time 

I am sure things have changed alot now,more stores in town and stuff like that.
Give Cold Lake a chance its a nice spot in my opinion with lots of wildlife to see,Bears,Moose and Deer.

Have fun

Mark


----------



## cadet

Is anybody here from Cold Lake? 
Or been here recently, after it is not a  remote posting anymore?
Any information would be highly appreciated, especially from Met Techs, because  I am a MetTech by trade.


----------



## drs1987

Hey I am going to be finishing up my QL3's In Shearwater around June 20th and I am curious as to how the PMQ's in Cold Lake look in comparision to the Borden PMQ's. Just curious as to what they look like.

Thanks


----------



## childs56

Same as they are in Borden. Probelly more expensive. I not in any more but I hear they rasied the rates there again.


----------



## Armywife_chimo

Hi all,
Anyone aware what a 4 bedroom PMQ goes for in Cold Lake nowadays?  We've been looking on CFHA's website but nothing about the prices there.

Thanks!


----------



## Trueblue

I'm being sent to CFB cold lake for OJT starting Oct. 14th - Jan 5th,

I haven't been given any particulars as to what unit I'll be helping out or anything like that.

I was wondering if anyone had a clue what the shacks were like for privates there? Like how many to a room, internet/cable access, etc. 

Thanks


----------



## agc

Buying new snow tires in the next couple of days, and getting posted to Cold Lake shortly.  Could anyone recommend whether studded tires are needed there, or if regular snow tires would be fine?

Thanks

AGC


----------



## Retired AF Guy

agc said:
			
		

> Buying new snow tires in the next couple of days, and getting posted to Cold Lake shortly.  Could anyone recommend whether studded tires are needed there, or if regular snow tires would be fine?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> AGC



I was going to say studded tires are illegal, but, after a  little research  I find they are legal in Alberta (and most other provinces). 

So, do you need studded tires? I would say no. I was in Cold Lake for five years in the '80's and I got by using all-season tires, even when I was out out hunting in the boondocks, never had any problems.  Mind you, I had a Ford Bronco II 4X4.  

However, these days the conventional wisdom says that during winter months, you use winter tires, and that's what I would suggest.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Studded tires are legal in Alberta, but plenty of municipalities have by-laws that prohibit their use.


----------



## agc

Thanks for the info guys.  I don't think I'll be trying to make it around on all seasons in my Corolla, but I'll forgo the studs.  I also see that Cold Lake gets about 1/3 the snow that this part of Newfoundland gets.


----------



## Popurhedoff

A few things to think about while there, it get very cold and an inline water heater and a battery blanket are a must.  I was posted there for 7 years in the early 80's.

Cheers
Pop


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Popurhedoff said:
			
		

> A few things to think about while there, it get very cold



That's an understatement. December - January -30/40 is pretty normal.



> and an inline water heater and a battery blanket are a must.



"inline water heater'? Actually had to look that one up. Everyone I knew had a block heater, but from what I read having both is a bonus. Never used a battery blanket, but I know people who did and they are of a diffident advantage. 
Having a heavy duty battery rated for cold weather is a must. Also, when the cold weather starts coming around, make sure you get a proper winter tune-up (e.g.) rad coolant is rated for cold temperatures; oil change, etc. 
Make sure you have a shovel and booster cables with you. Having a little winter survival kit (e.g.) blankets, warm clothing, small stove, etc wouldn't be to out of line. Mind you, I did a lot of off-roading and hunting, but storms can come out of nowhere or you end up in the ditch, so having something to keep you warm doesn't hurt. 



> I was posted there for 7 years in the early 80's.



Hmm, I was there from '84 - '89.


----------



## Popurhedoff

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> That's an understatement. December - January -30/40 is pretty normal.
> 
> 
> "inline water heater'? Actually had to look that one up. Everyone I knew had a block heater, but from what I read having both is a bonus. Never used a battery blanket, but I know people who did and they are of a diffident advantage.
> Having a heavy duty battery rated for cold weather is a must. Also, when the cold weather starts coming around, make sure you get a proper winter tune-up (e.g.) rad coolant is rated for cold temperatures; oil change, etc.
> Make sure you have a shovel and booster cables with you. Having a little winter survival kit (e.g.) blankets, warm clothing, small stove, etc wouldn't be to out of line. Mind you, I did a lot of off-roading and hunting, but storms can come out of nowhere or you end up in the ditch, so having something to keep you warm doesn't hurt.
> 
> 
> Hmm, I was there from '84 - '89.



I was posted there 80-87 with 419 TFTS,  January 81, the average temp for the whole month was -48 and it play hell on vehicles.  As with Retired AF Guy's post above, its all good information.  I will never forget driving with the flat spots from the frozen tires... all nice and sync'd until I hit the gas and the 4 wheel drive/limited slip differental put the tires out of sync... dam bumpy for the first kilometer.

Cheers
Pop


----------



## BernDawg

I ran both studded and non studded winter tires while I was posted there. Studded were far superior in my opinion. All seasons won't help you at all. The city has a minimal snow removal policy and the snow is allowed to build up on the roads until it's 3-4" thick, very hard packed and ice covered then they bust it up with a front end loader and haul it away. If you're lucky they do this 2-3 times during the winter. Usually they only do it once or twice. Also, they do not salt, sand yes, salt no.
The battery blanket is a must as well. You can plug your car in all you want but when it gets really cold the battery just doesn't have enough amps to crank the engine over. Just sitting here chuckling to myself remembering unplugging the truck and the extension cord sitting there like a cobra becasue it was so frozen (and that was a winter rated one too boot!)


----------



## wildman0101

I'm from Winnipeg. I had a block and inline. Inline Antfreeze. Block Anti,, oil ,, block,, other. 
Wind Chill factor -35 ,,,, trying to scrape ice off windshield,, Oh Boy. LOL.. Cheer's. Scoty B


----------



## eurowing

Synthetic oil...  everywhere, differentials included. It makes a HUGE difference.


----------



## Chernoble

I have a garage.  Truck and car start fine


----------



## agc

http://m.edmontonsun.com/2014/01/10/rising-housing-costs-at-cfb-cold-lake-prompt-one-soldier-to-busk



> COLD LAKE --﻿ Rising housing costs at CFB Cold Lake prompted one soldier to busk for change on a town sidewalk, where dozens of supporters dropped cash into his upturned combat helmet.
> 
> Cpl. Darenn Tremblay, 25, with his guitar in hand, set up a cardboard sign outside a local store Thursday night reading: "I am in the Canadian Forces posted to Cold Lake with a family. Any spare change will help."
> 
> The young soldier -- from ﻿Jonquière, Quebec, and posted in CFB Cold Lake for the past two-and-a-half years -- said he is just trying to make ends meet while sending a message to protest the recent increase on Residential Housing Units (RHU) in the booming oil town that is also home to the military.
> 
> "I do that because we don't have any money to pay our rent basically," said Tremblay, who is married.
> 
> Part of the problem is the high cost of living in Cold Lake, driven by the area's booming oil and gas industry.
> 
> Members of the military in Cold Lake receive a $319-per-month Post Living Differential (PLD) -- an allowance designed to stabilize cost of living for military members with respect to the region they are in. But in Cold Lake, it's lower for members than other military communities, like Edmonton where soldiers receive a $684 PLD per month.
> 
> The PLD rates in Cold Lake haven't been readjusted to reflect the current economy in over three years.
> 
> Housing costs are up while "our salary stays down and like everybody, we got lots of debts," said Tremblay.
> 
> Tremblay and other members living on CFB Cold Lake recently received a letter from the federal government that stated: "Please note that should your shelter charge be reduced to less than the fair market value calculated for your unit, the difference between what you are being charged and the market value is considered a taxable benefit as per the Income Tax Act. This information will therefore be reflected in your T4 slips."
> 
> Department of National Defence communications officer, Kathy Roberge, said each year the Canadian Forces Housing Agency (CFHA) administers the shelter charge adjustment process in accordance with governmental and departmental policies and regulations. Roberge acknowledged more is needed for Cold Lake families and said several measures are in place to limit shelter charge adjustments.
> 
> "For the second consecutive year, rent increases for CAF families with the lowest income (Privates incentive 1 and 2 and Officer Cadets) will be limited to the national average increase of 2.25 per cent," Roberge said.
> 
> There was a 10 per cent reduction applied to the shelter charges in Cold Lake in 2010, authorized by the Minister of National Defence, Peter MacKay, and will continue to be applied during fiscal year 2014/2015.
> 
> "However, in spite of the 10% reduction, shelter charges for DND housing in Cold Lake will increase by approximately 6% over the 2013/2014 rates, not including last year's 10% reduction, due to the rapidly growing local economy and high housing demand," Roberge said. The annual shelter charge adjustment for 2014/15 will go into effect April 1.
> 
> Tremblay is also trying to keep up with rising bills -- including large heating bills for aging military housing -- by taking on second jobs.
> 
> "We keep paying heat bills like crazy," Tremblay said. "Basically we just keep paying more and more forever.
> "This is killing me right now. I can barely pay for my food so that's where I am right now."
> 
> In 2013, the Ombudsman for the Department of National Defence, Pierre Daigle, reported that between 10 per cent to 35 per cent of CFB Cold Lake workers take other jobs to supplement their income.
> 
> Daigle also stressed that CFB Cold Lake has a "high" military release rate -- 8.33 per cent in 2012, and on track to be 12 per cent to 13 per cent in 2013 -- and some Canadian Forces members opted to retire in order to avoid Cold Lake postings.
> 
> Tremblay said he was able to manage his finances well before arriving in Cold Lake a couple years ago.
> 
> "I had money in my account, now it keeps going down and down and I can't do anything about it," said Tremblay, who witnesses said was later ushered off the sidewalk by military personnel. He has since been told by his commanders not to speak with reporters.
> 
> "I was planning on having a child, but I don't want to raise a child in a kind of place like Cold Lake and I could not even pay for feeding them."


----------



## Halifax Tar

Well this will get a response


----------



## Edward Campbell

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Well this will get a response




Maybe, if this government is a little less 'tone deaf" to bad PR than were past ones. I recall when sailors and soldiers in Esquimalt (from the fleet, Dockyard, Naden and Work Point) were going to food banks. There was a bit of hand wringing in the media but it all blew over quickly and the government of the day just ducked and stayed under cover until something else caught the media's eye.


----------



## Halifax Tar

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Maybe, if this government is a little less 'tone deaf" to bad PR than were past ones. I recall when sailors and soldiers in Esquimalt (from the fleet, Dockyard, Naden and Work Point) were going to food banks. There was a bit of hand wringing in the media but it all blew over quickly and the government of the day just ducked and stayed under cover until something else caught the media's eye.



Touché


----------



## misratah500

I just got a talk from my CO yesterday about optics. And how we look to civilians and how we have it really good. And he talked to the CDS when he was out here for Regina's departure. The CDS said that our pay and our pension were seen as safe things but in the time of fiscal restraint other perks could possibly be adjusted (PLD, Sea Pay, other small benefits)

The key thing was, he kept coming back to the word "optics" in terms of how the civilians see us. If they see we get all these things then they think it will look bad upon us. That's why other adjustments were made to our navy life, such as sliders, parking changes, blue boat, and work hours extension. It was about optics to the civilians as to why do we get off early and why do we get all these little perks like a free blue boat. 

I told my captain it wasn't fair for us to be compared to the civilians. We aren't civilians, they don't go away for up to a 8 months at a time, they don't stand a 1 in 8 duty watch when our ship is low on crew, they don't have unlimited liability. So instead of cutting all these little things back that make the military worth it for some people maybe they could concentrate on explaining to the civilians what we do and why we should have these nice little things.  It seems like no one is going to bat for us sometimes. 

I think it took alot of balls with what this guy did and I know he got his bag hammered for it. But desperate times call for desperate measures. I know if they wiped PLD out here in Victoria maybe people would be devastated as is the expense of the housing/rental market here in Victoria. 

We had a few chiefs in the discussion saying that they have to be careful how the tread with all these things like PLD and such. Guys with their 20+ years in could just decide to walk out the door and the military would lose alot of experience. 

Personally all these changes suck, but I understand kinda why they do it. I mean the military is opening to sacrifice the little things to preserve the big things (pay and pension). I'm happy with my pay and I'm very happy with a pension especially in today's economies. If they were ever to start messing with our pensions though I think I would start to change my mind about the military.  Even though I have too much invested in the navy now to release, but I have guys under me that would have no such qualms on moving onto other sectors of employment. Notibly the Oil/gas industry and trades.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Touché




No, just a long memory.

The public doesn't really give a tinker's damn about the military, all the red t-shirts and yellow ribbons are just "feel good" fluff and nonsense. Their "support" for the troops may be a mile wide but it's less than an inch deep. 

And politicians care only about what matters to the public.


----------



## PuckChaser

This guy made himself a martyr, but I applaud his nuts for standing up for the injustice that is our PLD system. Either they fix PLD, or they start changing the pay scales for troops posted to certain areas to meet market conditions.

I think the issue really is that CFHA is making money hand over fist on sub-standard PMQs that bleed heat in the winter. Its not his rent increase (which critics will say is capped at 25% of his base pay), but that he's probably putting out half that amount or more in heating costs every month.

"Fair market value" should start taking into account the sad state of some of the PMQs. Either CFHA needs to dissolve and get out of RHUs all together, or step up and start providing an actual service to troops posted to bases. Charging $1500 a month for a 1000 sq ft house with no basement and newspaper insulation is just shady.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Charging $1500 a month for a 1000 sq ft house with no basement and newspaper insulation is just shady.



Not to mention the place has probably been paid for 1000 times over......


----------



## dapaterson

"Making money hand over fist"?

Actually, on revenues of $97M (of which $91M were shelter charges), CFHA ran a $17M deficit in the fiscal year ended 31 March 2013.  (http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-reports-pubs/housing-annual-report-2013.page)


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Bad management one would assume.


----------



## armyvern

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> ... Charging $1500 a month for a 1000 sq ft house with no basement and newspaper insulation is just shady.



And don't forget the "taxable benefit" bit for your T4s.  We'll cap your shelter charge at 25% of your "lower than the oil workers in your area" pay, but because those oil workers have driven up the housing market with their great pay, your "fair market value" rent should actually be $1700.00 a month --- so, we're going to further slam you on your T4s with a "taxable benefit" of the $200.00 bucks a month difference ... $1200.00 a year on your taxes. 

I think the real issue is that CFHA needs to pull their heads out of their asses.  A 1000 square foot 3 bedroom military PMQ that costs $327.00 bucks a month to heat to 17 degrees because it doesn't have an ounce of insulation in it and 20-25 year old windows IS NOT on par "fair market value" with the modern, updated, insulated, 1000 square foot home that the civilian is living in for 1700.00 bucks a month and heating for relative pennies.  

It's sad and it's been an issue for years.  One of the major things the CF did wrong years ago in handing these things over to a contractor to manage on our behalf IMO.

And PLD ... they promised that this would be reviewed anually.  When exactly did the last review occur?  :   It's been years and troops who should be getting much better than they are - are not, and some areas are therefore continuing to receive many more dollars in PLD than they should be.  Time for a review and an overhaul of the PLD system --- and for the formula they utilize for figuring it out to be transparent, factual, and PUBLISHED because I don't know a single serving soul who actually can tell you what that "formula" is.  We all know what it takes into account, but the results always have us scratching our heads as to how they actually formulate those factors.

Disclaimer:  I do not, nor have I ever been posted into a base that receives PLD (less Halifax, but PLD did not exist when I was there centuries ago).  Nor do I require any ... but I`m member of a DINK and I know that if I was early into my career at a place like Esquimault or Cold Lake I would certainly require it.


----------



## PuckChaser

Just as an example in Kingston, I paid $71 (equal billing) to heat a PMQ that was roughly 1000 sq ft with no basement. I move to a new build, at 1500 sq ft not including the basement and now pay $57 a month. I consider myself lucky my Q heat was only $71 bucks, original equal billing was well over $90.


----------



## eliminator

Some bedtime reading:

http://www.ombudsman.forces.gc.ca/en/ombudsman-news-events-media-news/release-cold-lake.page


----------



## armyvern

eliminator said:
			
		

> Some bedtime reading:
> 
> http://www.ombudsman.forces.gc.ca/en/ombudsman-news-events-media-news/release-cold-lake.page



Thanks for posting the link to the Ombudsman's report.  Alas, it is even worse there than I thought:



> Military housing rents in Cold Lake are roughly double that of comparable Air Force bases in Greenwood, Nova Scotia and Bagotville, Quebec.
> 
> Military homes at CFB Cold Lake were mostly built 60 years ago.
> 
> *Only 18 of 853 of military homes (Residential Housing Units) are assessed as being in good condition*; 486 in fair condition; 349 in poor condition.
> 
> *828* homes have warnings of *possible asbestos* (in vermiculite insulation) in sealed-off attics.
> 
> 640 homes have ungrounded electrical outlets.
> 
> 250 homes have running water throughout the winter to prevent freezingpipes.



Sigh.


----------



## PuckChaser

Asbestos is fair market value. You can resell it if you don't get cancer first....


----------



## McG

misratah500 said:
			
		

> The CDS said that our pay and our pension were seen as safe things but in the time of fiscal restraint other perks could possibly be adjusted (PLD, Sea Pay, other small benefits)


Sea Pay, Land Duty Allowance, Dive Pay, Parachutist Pay, etc  all need to be looked at.  These pay bonuses for having one's name listed against a certain line in HRMS should be replaced with an enhanced variation of their casual allowance.  

I don’t advocate this as a cost saving measure.  It is about paying for the behaviour/act desired.


----------



## Stoker

MCG said:
			
		

> Sea Pay, Land Duty Allowance, Dive Pay, Parachutist Pay, etc  all need to be looked at.  These pay bonuses for having one's name listed against a certain line in HRMS should be replaced with an enhanced variation of their casual allowance.
> 
> I don’t advocate this as a cost saving measure.  It is about paying for the behaviour/act desired.



Are you advocating personnel be paid only the days they are in he field, at sea etc


----------



## Stoker

It seems all the benefits, or perks as someone has mentioned before that we receive are being eliminated or modified and the main reasons seems to be because the civilians don't get them. Is this jealousy on someones part and who is fighting for us to keep these benefits and saying enough is enough.


----------



## McG

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Are you advocating personnel be paid only the days they are in he field, at sea etc


Yes.

(New Daily Rate) = 12 x (Current Monthly Rate)/(Average # o'Days at sea/in field per year for allowance recepients)


----------



## Lightguns

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> No, just a long memory.
> 
> The public doesn't really give a tinker's damn about the military, all the red t-shirts and yellow ribbons are just "feel good" fluff and nonsense. Their "support" for the troops may be a mile wide but it's less than an inch deep.
> 
> And politicians care only about what matters to the public.



Concur and heartily agree.


----------



## The Bread Guy

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Maybe, if this government is a little less 'tone deaf" to bad PR than were past ones ....


Well, if THIS doesn't catch the eye of someone at "the centre" ....





.... nothing will.

Either way, methinks _someone's_ going to get a talking to (a chat without bisquits?) about representing themselves as a member of the CAF outside work.


----------



## Halifax Tar

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Well, if THIS doesn't catch the eye of someone at "the centre" ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .... nothing will.
> 
> Either way, methinks _someone's_ going to get a talking to (a chat without bisquits?) about representing themselves as a member of the CAF outside work.



I really don't know what can be done if his CoC wanted admin or discipline action.  

I know if I was him I would understand I just fired huge salvo at employer and have upped the ante.  If I was him I would continue to talk to the press, it's about the only thing he has.  He has to hope public compassion will keep him free from correcting measures. 

Alas ERC is right... This will only last until The new news buds in.


----------



## PuckChaser

MCG said:
			
		

> Sea Pay, Land Duty Allowance, Dive Pay, Parachutist Pay, etc  all need to be looked at.  These pay bonuses for having one's name listed against a certain line in HRMS should be replaced with an enhanced variation of their casual allowance.
> 
> I don’t advocate this as a cost saving measure.  It is about paying for the behaviour/act desired.



And yet still doesn't help this airman make ends meet to feed his family.


----------



## Kat Stevens

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Well, if THIS doesn't catch the eye of someone at "the centre" ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .... nothing will.
> 
> Either way, methinks _someone's_ going to get a talking to (a chat without bisquits?) about representing themselves as a member of the CAF outside work.



I would like to believe that this guy has run out of both options and hope to drive him to such a desperate and, ultimately, career destructive action.  The bean counters seem to be hell bent on making it near impossible for those who want to serve to do so.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Here's the problem: someone in NDHQ, someone important and someone who actually cares ~ say the VCDS, see this and says to the three or four striper who runs his "office," his Chief of Staff, "What the hell is gong on. Get the right people to tell me how this lad got into this mess and how we're going to help get him out."

The COS gets on with it: a few urgent memos (e-mails, now, I suppose) are fired off and a 20 minute block is cleared on the VCDS' calendar for a day a week or so from now. 

Meanwhile new crises (and they all _feel_ like real crises in the hot-house environment of the 13th floor of Fort Fumble) pop up ~ several a day ~ which demand the attention of the VCDS and his COS.

A week or so later a briefing team arrives in the VCDS' ante room ~ they are nowhere near as busy as he is and they have prepared a soothing, plausible, fact filled briefing ~ signed off by two or three two stars and an ADM or two ~ that will explain that there are _systems_ in place, not perfect, but really quite good, and the CF member in question has some problems of his own making and he has failed to use the system properly and, anyway, there are detailed staff studies underway which will, almost certainly, come up with even better _systems_ but NDHQ, indeed the whole Government of Canada, cannot down tools and fix one problem ... and, and. and ... nearly _ad infinitum_.

Just before the briefing is due to end the COS will whisper that the DM wants to see the VCDS ASP about another, even more serious problem, so the one, important question the VCDSC was about to ask ("How can we help this guy, now?") will fall by the wayside. The VCDS will, almost absent mindedly thank the briefers and will hustle down the hall to deal with the next issue.

Everyone, including the VCDS' COS will put a check mark in the boxes saying "Problem Seen," "Briefing Given," and "Problem Solved."


----------



## Halifax Tar

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Here's the problem: someone in NDHQ, someone important and someone who actually cares ~ say the VCDS, see this and says to the three or four striper who runs his "office," his Chief of Staff, "What the hell is gong on. Get the right people to tell me how this lad got into this mess and how we're going to help get him out."
> 
> The COS gets on with it: a few urgent memos (e-mails, now, I suppose) are fired off and a 20 minute block is cleared on the VCDS' calendar for a day a week or so from now.
> 
> Meanwhile new crises (and they all _feel_ like real crises in the hot-house environment of the 13th floor of Fort Fumble) pop up ~ several a day ~ which demand the attention of the VCDS and his COS.
> 
> A week or so later a briefing team arrives in the VCDS' ante room ~ they are nowhere near as busy as he is and they have prepared a soothing, plausible, fact filled briefing ~ signed off by two or three two stars and an ADM or two ~ that will explain that there are _systems_ in place, not perfect, but really quite good, and the CF member in question has some problems of his own making and he has failed to use the system properly and, anyway, there are detailed staff studies underway which will, almost certainly, come up with even better _systems_ but NDHQ, indeed the whole Government of Canada, cannot down tools and fix one problem ... and, and. and ... nearly _ad infinitum_.
> 
> Just before the briefing is due to end the COS will whisper that the DM wants to see the VCDS ASP about another, even more serious problem, so the one, important question the VCDSC was about to ask ("How can we help this guy, now?") will fall by the wayside. The VCDS will, almost absent mindedly thank the briefers and will hustle down the hall to deal with the next issue.
> 
> Everyone, including the VCDS' COS will put a check mark in the boxes saying "Problem Seen," "Briefing Given," and "Problem Solved."



So sadly your saying support for us even inside the beast is a mile wide and an inch deep.


----------



## Ostrozac

There is a fundamental issue here. PLD is supposed to be recalculated regularly. And it isn't. That isn't the fault of the airmen living in Cold Lake, or the fault of the RCAF (who would probably be quite happy to survey the cost of living on their own bases). Or even the team who are responsible for the annual recalculations of PMQ rent, who HAVE been doing their job, every year.

The recalculations are supposed to be done by the centre, in Ottawa. And, for whatever reason, that hasn't been happening.


----------



## observor 69

I have seen a call for retired AVS techs to rejoin, "the need is great and we can smooth the way in a quickened process. "
Oh and your posting, you being an AVS tech, will be to a base with a high demand for AVS techs.
So you will go from your happy urban centre life style to Cold Lake.
Any takers?


----------



## Edward Campbell

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> So sadly your saying support for us even inside the beast is a mile wide and an inch deep.




No, but the "beast" is huge, and lumbering and, too often, lacks direction and focus.

I believe - I really do believe - that most senior leaders and managers (bureaucrats) DO CARE, but there are too many problems, and many of them are perception problems, things that are rather like the military/bureaucratic equivalent of "First World Problems" and the real problems get pushed aside.

I know it's off topic, but ... fewer HQs and fewer flag and general officers, and fewer senior executives (military and civilian), would actually help. Less can be and do more when it forces one to focus on what actually matters.


----------



## The Bread Guy

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Here's the problem: someone in NDHQ, someone important and someone who actually cares ~ say the VCDS, see this and says to the three or four striper who runs his "office," his Chief of Staff, "What the hell is gong on. Get the right people to tell me how this lad got into this mess and how we're going to help get him out."
> 
> The COS gets on with it: a few urgent memos (e-mails, now, I suppose) are fired off and a 20 minute block is cleared on the VCDS' calendar for a day a week or so from now.
> 
> Meanwhile new crises (and they all _feel_ like real crises in the hot-house environment of the 13th floor of Fort Fumble) pop up ~ several a day ~ which demand the attention of the VCDS and his COS.
> 
> A week or so later a briefing team arrives in the VCDS' ante room ~ they are nowhere near as busy as he is and they have prepared a soothing, plausible, fact filled briefing ~ signed off by two or three two stars and an ADM or two ~ that will explain that there are _systems_ in place, not perfect, but really quite good, and the CF member in question has some problems of his own making and he has failed to use the system properly and, anyway, there are detailed staff studies underway which will, almost certainly, come up with even better _systems_ but NDHQ, indeed the whole Government of Canada, cannot down tools and fix one problem ... and, and. and ... nearly _ad infinitum_.
> 
> Just before the briefing is due to end the COS will whisper that the DM wants to see the VCDS ASP about another, even more serious problem, so the one, important question the VCDSC was about to ask ("How can we help this guy, now?") will fall by the wayside. The VCDS will, almost absent mindedly thank the briefers and will hustle down the hall to deal with the next issue.
> 
> Everyone, including the VCDS' COS will put a check mark in the boxes saying "Problem Seen," "Briefing Given," and "Problem Solved."


_Outstanding_ portrayal of how the lumbering beast of government (not just those in uniform - just change the job titles) works  - problem seen (not necessarily specifically identified) + action taken =/= problem solved.

If there's _political_ will, though, something can happen.  Sadly, like you've said elsewhere, the political will has to be there in the first place.


----------



## mariomike

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Well, if THIS doesn't catch the eye of someone at "the centre" ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .... nothing will.
> 
> Either way, methinks _someone's_ going to get a talking to (a chat without bisquits?) about representing themselves as a member of the CAF outside work.



Reminds me of the photo years ago of the Metro Police officer sitting cross-legged on the sidewalk - in full uniform - holding a tin cup in his outstretched hand, with a placard around his neck that read, “Please Give Generously.”


----------



## Quirky

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> A 1000 square foot 3 bedroom military PMQ that costs $327.00 bucks a month to heat to 17 degrees



I don't even pay half that in the coldest months, something is seriously wrong with that Q if heating costs are that high. Either way, yes heating and overall PMQ costs are atrocious and the overall situation on base is affecting operation capability. But who cares this is the norm for Canada right?  :


----------



## OldSolduer

Many civilians are of the opinion  think or beleive military pers get "free" housing and don't pay taxes.


----------



## Quirky

Made the front page of the Sun.  :nod:


----------



## smale436

Quirky said:
			
		

> I don't even pay half that in the coldest months, something is seriously wrong with that Q if heating costs are that high. Either way, yes heating and overall PMQ costs are atrocious and the overall situation on base is affecting operation capability. But who cares this is the norm for Canada right?  :



I don't understand that either and assume he is talking both utilities combined. I just looked at my electric and gas bills for December, a very cold month, and they were $90 and $115 respectively. That is setting the heat at about 18 which I find is comfortable enough to wear shorts in my duplex Q up in Mackenzie. 

However for the last 4 years I have utilized the budget equal payment plan and all year long the monthly bills for each have never been above $80. Makes it much easier to deal with. As far as Q rent, my 1 1/2 storey with garage was 695 when I arrived in May 2008. As of April 1 it will be 940. (992 with the water, sewer, and garbage fee)


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> I really don't know what can be done if his CoC wanted admin or discipline action.
> 
> I know if I was him I would understand I just fired huge salvo at employer and have upped the ante.  If I was him I would continue to talk to the press, it's about the only thing he has.  He has to hope public compassion will keep him free from correcting measures.
> 
> Alas ERC is right... This will only last until The new news buds in.



He's not allowed to talk to the press anymore. His wife on the other hand...


----------



## Bzzliteyr

CDNAIRFORCE said:
			
		

> I don't understand that either and assume he is talking both utilities combined. I just looked at my electric and gas bills for December, a very cold month, and they were $90 and $115 respectively. That is setting the heat at about 18 which I find is comfortable enough to wear shorts in my duplex Q up in Mackenzie.



I paid Enmax $311 for my last bill. I average $300 a month to them. 1234 sq ft house in Calgary.


----------



## agc

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2014/01/12/21391721.html



> DAMIEN WOOD, QMI AGENCY
> Jan 12, 2014, Last Updated: 1:51 AM ET
> 
> CALGARY - Charges will likely result for an active soldier with a family who spoke up about his inability to keep up with his bills on base in Cold Lake, sources tell QMI Agency.
> 
> Cpl. Darenn Tremblay, a 25-year-old from Jonquière, Que., who’s been posted to CFB Cold Lake for the past 21/2 years, has been instructed by his commanders not to speak to media anymore.
> 
> There hasn’t been a penalty handed down yet but sources said he will likely be charged, although it is not yet known what charge he could face.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> I really don't know what can be done if his CoC wanted admin or discipline action.





			
				agc said:
			
		

> http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2014/01/12/21391721.html
> 
> 
> 
> DAMIEN WOOD, QMI AGENCY
> Jan 12, 2014, Last Updated: 1:51 AM ET
> 
> CALGARY - Charges will likely result for an active soldier with a family who spoke up about his inability to keep up with his bills on base in Cold Lake, sources tell QMI Agency.
> 
> Cpl. Darenn Tremblay, a 25-year-old from Jonquière, Que., who’s been posted to CFB Cold Lake for the past 21/2 years, has been instructed by his commanders not to speak to media anymore.
> 
> There hasn’t been a penalty handed down yet but sources said he will likely be charged, although it is not yet known what charge he could face.
Click to expand...


CAVEAT:  we only have the word of "unnamed sources" here.  That said, we'll see 1) if it happens, and if so, 2)  what charges are laid, and 3) whether it sticks.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

This is the 'blood in the water' that always draws the MSM sharks into a feeding frenzy.

Hopefully, they'll drag this whole mess out into the daylight.


----------



## Journeyman

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> ..... 2) what charges are laid, and 3) whether it sticks.


2)  Busking.  
3)  He'll likely be let off with a caution because he wasn't at the more irritating end of the busking scale -- mime or making balloon animals.   ;D


----------



## The Bread Guy

Journeyman said:
			
		

> 2)  Busking.
> 3)  He'll likely be let off with a caution because he wasn't at the more irritating end of the busking scale -- mime or making balloon animals.   ;D


Or, heaven forbid, a mime making balloon animals


----------



## Edward Campbell

recceguy said:
			
		

> This is the 'blood in the water' that always draws the MSM sharks into a feeding frenzy.
> 
> Hopefully, they'll drag this whole mess out into the daylight.




I agree, and I hope it works.


----------



## ModlrMike

We have to remember here that the CF only has so much control over pay, allowances and PMQ rents. PLD is a Treasury Board governed item, and rent increases are managed through CFHA and mandated by TB to reflect fair market value. That being said, here's the rules regarding PMQ rents:



> Based on a Treasury Board Secretariat directive, a charge of up to 25% of gross household income for DND housing (excluding costs for parking, fuel and utilities) is considered acceptable. Where the shelter charge exceeds 25% of gross household income (including the Post Living Differential (PLD)), the occupant may apply with CFHA to have the rent reduced to the 25% limit. Applications for rent reduction must be submitted annually and provide the necessary details to substantiate the gross household income level.



That seems pretty reasonable when you consider that most banks won't grant a mortgage that exceeds 33% of gross family income.

I don't know what the PMQ rent is for the member in question, but there's more to the story here I suspect.


----------



## PuckChaser

Just like we can "apply" if you take a huge loss on your house, so whatever government entity can deny it.

DND is not solely at fault here, but there is a leadership failure at some higher levels for not putting pressure on TBS sooner before this hit critical mass in the form of some poor Cpl willing to make himself a martyr so the milking of CF pers at Cold Lake will stop.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> DND is not solely at fault here, but there is a leadership failure at some higher levels for not putting pressure on TBS sooner before this hit critical mass in the form of some poor Cpl willing to make himself a martyr



You must be that really rare Sigs Sgt who sits in on the various meetings between "senior leadership" and TBS to know that a) nothing is being done, b) the "senior leadership" doesn't care about Cpl Snuffy, and has said so, c) that there are no conflicting demands within the ongoing relationship between DND and TBS that demand a never ending series of compromises, d) that leaders at all levels are not doing their honest best to alleviate the situation in a rational, defensible and sustainable way that does not jeopardise a host of allowances, benefits, compensation, and even capability.



> so the milking of CF pers at Cold Lake will stop.



Milking?  Really?  By whom, and to what end?  As you have already heard, CFHA loses money.  A Cpl makes more than the average Canadian salary, and makes budget choices every day, just the taxpayer who pays his salary (and makes less than the Cpl).  Explain this milking to me again?


----------



## Quirky

Now Calgary has picked it up on their front page. Lets hope this gets trickled into the national scene.  :nod:


----------



## OldSolduer

I would like to know what is parked in his driveway.

Anyone else want to know?


----------



## George Wallace

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I would like to know what is parked in his driveway.
> 
> Anyone else want to know?



I have been wondering if he made enough busking in Edmonton to cover the cost of travel to and from there.


----------



## Stoker

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I would like to know what is parked in his driveway.
> 
> Anyone else want to know?


----------



## agc

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I have been wondering if he made enough busking in Edmonton to cover the cost of travel to and from there.



It made the Edmonton paper, but it happened here in Cold Lake.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

>



Looks like it has a pretty good oil leak.


----------



## Quirky

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I would like to know what is parked in his driveway.
> 
> Anyone else want to know?



What difference would that make, PMQ rent is still way too high. It's not like he's out busking then gets back into his Cadillac and drives off to the nearest hotel. He isn't Theresa Spence.


----------



## Cansky

http://www.cfha.forces.gc.ca/hl-el/coldlakegi-coldlakeig-eng.aspx

Here are the rates for PMQs in Cold Lake.  According to the photo max he would pay 1350 a month.  Please budget is the issue here his budget not the militaries.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

And I am sure his hot tub in the back yard doesn't cost a cent to run either...


----------



## Fishbone Jones

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> And I am sure his hot tub in the back yard doesn't cost a cent to run either...



 ??? ???


----------



## Nfld Sapper

from his significant other's facebook page...


----------



## Halifax Tar

He has a hot tub attached to his PMQ ?  That sounds unlikely.  Wouldn't you have to get permission to mod this ?


----------



## Nfld Sapper

:dunno:


----------



## George Wallace

Kirsten Luomala said:
			
		

> .............  Please budget is the issue here........ his budget not the militaries.



Agreed.


----------



## CombatMacguyver

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> And I am sure his hot tub in the back yard doesn't cost a cent to run either...



If you do a bit more digging...

It seems like that hot tub is back in Quebec (Saguenay, where it looks like he's from originally)

I'm the first person to point out that guys with $50k trucks shouldn't be complaining about pay, but I also get tired of being told how well I get paid when I lose 50% of my income to various forms of taxation.

edit - typo


----------



## PPCLI Guy

CombatMacguyver said:
			
		

> I'm the first person to point out that guys with $50k trucks shouldn't be complaining about pay, but I also get tired of being told well I get paid when I lose 50% of my income to various forms of taxation.



Like every other dude in the country.

We are just not that special.....


----------



## CombatMacguyver

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Like every other dude in the country.
> 
> We are just not that special.....



Can't argue with that.  It's a Canada problem, not an Army problem.


----------



## Stoker

I don't agree with any military member going to the media. At the end of the day he felt strongly enough to do what he did and will face the consequences. Perhaps this bring to light whats going on at Cold Lake and improve things for pers in hardship postings.


----------



## smale436

Kirsten Luomala said:
			
		

> http://www.cfha.forces.gc.ca/hl-el/coldlakegi-coldlakeig-eng.aspx
> 
> Here are the rates for PMQs in Cold Lake.  According to the photo max he would pay 1350 a month.  Please budget is the issue here his budget not the militaries.



Interesting. Based on the house number in the photo he lives down the street from me. He is no way in hell paying 1350. I live in the exact same house as the photo but with a garage and I'm currently paying 885 and will be paying 940 come April 1. (Plus 48/mo for water/sewer/garbage)

I wonder if he ever went to SISIP for a consultation. I know many people here who are in less than ideal situations, but I also know a few married guys with two kids who lived in a Q for 6 years, drove used cars, had tube tvs with basic cable, and last summer managed to buy $325k+ houses here with 20 percent down. One of the above mentioned guys (who really should release and become a financial planner in my opinion) said his frugal lifestyle is just something he and his wife have always practiced, even before having kids, and that making it here is very doable if the right choices are made. (And no he was not a spec trade)


----------



## George Wallace

CDNAIRFORCE said:
			
		

> I wonder if he ever went to SISIP for a consultation. I know many people here who are in less than ideal situations, but I also know a few married guys with two kids who lived in a Q for 6 years, drove used cars, had tube tvs with basic cable, and last summer managed to buy $325k+ houses here with 20 percent down. One of the above mentioned guys (who really should release and become a financial planner in my opinion) said his frugal lifestyle is just something he and his wife have always practiced, even before having kids, and that making it here is very doable if the right choices are made. (And no he was not a spec trade)



Many of us older guys can remember the members who lived in PMQs, many of senior rank (NCM and officer), who had big trucks, a second car, a boat, an ATV and a Snow machine or two.  These types will always be around, and when hard times hit them, financially or Release, they wonder where their bank accounts disappeared to and the hardship that follows.  Some of the more senior members here can remember RSMs who retired and then had to be hired on as cleaning staff in the Shacks in order to make ends meet.

Your example of a member being a little frugal and buying a home, shows that with some planning one can plan for retirement and not become a pauper.   The end goal, is to live a life that you can maintain, not one that you can't, and that would mean planning for that 'rainy day scenario' and eventually retirement.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Mixing military and civilian kit.
Charge.


----------



## George Wallace

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Mixing military and civilian kit.
> Charge.




You stickler, you.   >


----------



## pbi

CDNAIRFORCE said:
			
		

> Interesting. Based on the house number in the photo he lives down the street from me. He is no way in hell paying 1350. I live in the exact same house as the photo but with a garage and I'm currently paying 885 and will be paying 940 come April 1. (Plus 48/mo for water/sewer/garbage)
> 
> I wonder if he ever went to SISIP for a consultation. I know many people here who are in less than ideal situations, but I also know a few married guys with two kids who lived in a Q for 6 years, drove used cars, had tube tvs with basic cable, and last summer managed to buy $325k+ houses here with 20 percent down. One of the above mentioned guys (who really should release and become a financial planner in my opinion) said his frugal lifestyle is just something he and his wife have always practiced, even before having kids, and that making it here is very doable if the right choices are made. (And no he was not a spec trade)



It is possible. I was a young (and rather poorly paid) 2Lt with a wife and infant in 1984, back when soldiers on food stamps and out driving pizza deliveries were in the news. We were single income, so we adjusted. We didn't own a car until I was a Capt, and our first TV was a gift from my mother in law. We walked, bussed, or took taxis. We entertained friends at home. Now, I know this probably sounds terribly sanctimonious and holier-than-thou, but it can be done. The CF overall is very well paid, and much more secure than most Canadians could ever dream of. The CF have a gold-plated pension scheme if you compare it to what most people (other than Senators or MPs) get in the non-Federal govt world. The CF is one of the very few employers that actually has systems in place (for decades...) to help its people who have financial problems.

All of this would probably make it a bit difficult for the average working class, non-unionized Canadian, who makes less than a Cpl does in a year, to be particularly sympathetic.


----------



## OldSolduer

Thanks. So many have the toys parked in the drive, then plead poverty.


----------



## smale436

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Many of us older guys can remember the members who lived in PMQs, many of senior rank (NCM and officer), who had big trucks, a second car, a boat, an ATV and a Snow machine or two.  These types will always be around, and when hard times hit them, financially or Release, they wonder where their bank accounts disappeared to and the hardship that follows.  Some of the more senior members here can remember RSMs who retired and then had to be hired on as cleaning staff in the Shacks in order to make ends meet.
> 
> Your example of a member being a little frugal and buying a home, shows that with some planning one can plan for retirement and not become a pauper.   The end goal, is to live a life that you can maintain, not one that you can't, and that would mean planning for that 'rainy day scenario' and eventually retirement.



Good post. And yes, I have several times read your "Entering the CF and money thread". I was reticent to mention that I'm a single person who is not suffering in Cold Lake financially whatsoever, but that is not always the case as I know some single guys who will be always be unable to get their financial stuff together no matter what the case based on their lifestyle and personal choices. As a result, they're in worse shape debt-side than people like my frugal friend.

My father retired as a non-spec WO in 1996 when his salary was 50K which is what a P3 makes now. Sure housing and a lot of things were cheaper than. There was less tech crap like internet and iphones to waste your money on. But I also recall the PMQ I lived in as a kid in Calgary before the base there closed being far worse than the one I live in now. We had to cut blocks of wood to hold up the rotten windows so they would not slam shut on kids fingers for example. He worked for an armoured car company for 15 years after leaving the CF and made less than $40K. (Plus CF pension) No overtime, no Friday afternoons off, no paid time off to take your kid to the dentist or your dog to the vet, etc, etc. And I dare say he worked harder than I do most days. He still marvels at what I get paid now and wishes he had not retired when he did. I personally think our wages are very good and while the PMQ rates and other things need to be addressed, there a lot of people out there working harder for a lot less money. Hell, just a few days ago a co-worker razzed me for having a 32" CRT tv still. I said that I can afford to buy any TV I want tomorrow but this one works fine, it's too heavy to move out by myself, and I don't watch enough tv to justify buying a new one. That explanation seemed to go in one ear and out the other though unfortunately.


----------



## Kat Stevens

So the message is live like a monk and die some day anyway.


----------



## Edward Campbell

pbi said:
			
		

> It is possible. I was a young (and rather poorly paid) 2Lt with a wife and infant in 1984, back when soldiers on food stamps and out driving pizza deliveries were in the news. We were single income, so we adjusted. We didn't own a car until I was a Capt, and our first TV was a gift from my mother in law. We walked, bussed, or took taxis. We entertained friends at home. Now, I know this probably sounds terribly sanctimonious and holier-than-thou, but it can be done. The CF overall is very well paid, and much more secure than most Canadians could ever dream of. The CF have a gold-plated pension scheme if you compare it to what most people (other than Senators or MPs) get in the non-Federal govt world. The CF is one of the very few employers that actually has systems in place (for decades...) to help its people who have financial problems.
> 
> All of this would probably make it a bit difficult for the average working class, non-unionized Canadian, who makes less than a Cpl does in a year, to be particularly sympathetic.




Thanks for that, pbi. Another post with which I fully agree.

The CF has not been poorly paid since the 1960s. If anything one _might_ want to argue that there is not enough _space_ between corporal and sergeant and, again, between sergeant and WO; if you agree that $100,000/year is a fair rate of pay for CWO then, maybe, corporals are, ever so slightly, overpaid.

But that's not the point. I see two points:

     1. Leadership, which, in my opinion, ought to be on top of soldiers with problems ~ offering things like financial counselling;* and

     2. Systems, like cost of living differentials, that are not kept up to date.

As I said earlier: I do not believe that senior leadership/management (civil and military) is indifferent to pay and morale. But resources are always limited and we you the CF is just one cog in a big machine that is hard to steer in any one direction.

Now, obviously, like most people here, I know nothing about this soldier's problems. Maybe he needs a kick in the arse (which he seems likely to get) and some good, free, financial counselling. Maybe the system need s a shakeup ... but, the CF is neither poorly paid nor is it being kicked about by heartless bureaucrats.

_____
* Many decades ago regular, _en masse_, financial planning lectures were a routine event for junior ranks. That largely died out, on a CF wide basis, by the 1980s. I reintroduced it in my unit ~ inviting _interesting_ experts to share tips and tricks with my soldiers. I insisted on "interesting" because I wasn't going to keep 400 junior ranks sitting in a theatre for 45 minutes listening to dry statistics. I found bankers and investment managers and lawyers who were both: willing, even eager, to take on the task (most lawyers and bank managers hate seeing problems when it's too late to help) and who gave lively, interesting, useful presentations.


----------



## Tibbson

Kirsten Luomala said:
			
		

> http://www.cfha.forces.gc.ca/hl-el/coldlakegi-coldlakeig-eng.aspx
> 
> Here are the rates for PMQs in Cold Lake.  According to the photo max he would pay 1350 a month.  Please budget is the issue here his budget not the militaries.



I lost all faith in the system a number of years ago when posted to Borden.  I met a woman at Canex who mentioned she was going to a CFHA Conference in Winnipeg the next week.  I remarked that I didn't think she lived on base to which she informed me she didn't but she did own a house in Angus that she was renting out and that she was a member of the local housing committee as a civilian local representative.  I asked why and she said she was there because the low military rents (at that time) were cutting into the ability for landlords like her to compete with DND which was seen to be unfairly impacting on local businesses (landlords) by having the PMQ rent subsidized.  Over my time in Borden the rent for a PMQ like mine went from $375 a month to just over $1000.  Lucky for me I was grandfathered and mine never broke $400 a month.  She and her friends got a more competitive market though.


----------



## ModlrMike

The cynic in me asks how much of this is being driven by a desire to get posted to Bagotville, conveniently down the road from ﻿Jonquière?



> The young soldier -- from ﻿Jonquière, Quebec, and posted in CFB Cold Lake for the past two-and-a-half years...


----------



## George Wallace

Schindler's lift said:
			
		

> I lost all faith in the system a number of years ago when posted to Borden.  I met a woman at Canex who mentioned she was going to a CFHA Conference in Winnipeg the next week.  I remarked that I didn't think she lived on base to which she informed me she didn't but she did own a house in Angus that she was renting out and that she was a member of the local housing committee as a civilian local representative.  I asked why and she said she was there because the low military rents (at that time) were cutting into the ability for landlords like her to compete with DND which was seen to be unfairly impacting on local businesses (landlords) by having the PMQ rent subsidized.  Over my time in Borden the rent for a PMQ like mine went from $375 a month to just over $1000.  Lucky for me I was grandfathered and mine never broke $400 a month.  She and her friends got a more competitive market though.



Only one example of DND bowing to outside interests or agendas.  I can still to this day not figure out why the Government caved into someone's demand to see what their Taxpayer dollars were spent on and wanted access to CAF establishments, bringing about the now "Open Base" policy.  Front Gates have all but disappeared from our military Bases.  Cross the 49th and you will never see the likes of that.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Perhaps we're missing the part where while the 50k Cpl pay in Pet is adequate it is not in Cold Lake Alberta.  

I bring to you this article:

http://www.coldlakesun.com/2010/05/11/cold-lake-drops-to-98th-for-best-place-to-live-in-canada

While 4 years old it's the most recent I could find in a cursory search.  I draw you attention to this quote:



> In 2009 the average household in Cold Lake took in about $95,000.
> 
> That number is up to just over $105,000 this year, but the community fell three spots to 19th overall when compared to the other communities.



If that is the median house hold income in that area then the Cpls 50k salary suddenly seem 1/2 as good.


----------



## dapaterson

There is no mandate for the Canadian Forces to provide housing below market value to its personnel.  If we want cheap housing to be part of the CF compensation, then we should be cutting pay to balance it out.  But then we're penalizing those who don't live in the Qs to subsidize those who do.


----------



## armyvern

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> If that is the median house hold income in that area then the Cpls 50k salary suddenly seem 1/2 as good.



BINGO.  Pay is not the issue that should be being debated here.  Our pay is more than generous.

It is the PLD which is intended to compensate members for differences in cost of living for various posting-locations across the country.  PLD that is _supposed_ to be reviewed annually to ensure the Cpls 50K in Cold Lake allows him a standard of living on a somewhat even playing field with the other Cpl's 50K income in Gagetown, Greenwood etc.  That annual review has not happened for years now and that is the problem.

If one were to look at the links included earlier in this very thread, DND referred inquiries about the lack of review of PLD to TB; TB then stated to the inquiriers something akin to, "You need to make that inquiry to the DND spokesman".  And the big red-tape circle of SNAFU continues.


----------



## Kat Stevens

dapaterson said:
			
		

> There is no mandate for the Canadian Forces to provide housing below market value to its personnel.  If we want cheap housing to be part of the CF compensation, then we should be cutting pay to balance it out.  But then we're penalizing those who don't live in the Qs to subsidize those who do.



Where's the logic in this?  Most people prefer not to live in Qs because, for the most part, they are sub standard dung heaps.  Perhaps if they were brought up to a competitive standard with the civilian market, it may be justifiable to to charge competitive rents.  Paying the equivalent rent of a 4 level split with garage for a 60 year old hay barn with 2x4 construction and a wet basement is pure crap.  Maybe CFHA is losing money for the same reason everyone assumes this Cpl is, piss poor budgeting.


----------



## armyvern

dapaterson said:
			
		

> There is no mandate for the Canadian Forces to provide housing below market value to its personnel.  If we want cheap housing to be part of the CF compensation, then we should be cutting pay to balance it out.  But then we're penalizing those who don't live in the Qs to subsidize those who do.



Problem with that is that the sub-standard and horribly maintained PMQ housing is not equal to civilian housing of same size.  See linked Omsbudman report from earlier --- less than 20 PMQs (RHUs) in Cold Lake of 800 some-odd were deemed to be in "good" condition, and the remainder were deemed to be in "poor" and "bad" condition.


----------



## agc

dapaterson said:
			
		

> There is no mandate for the Canadian Forces to provide housing below market value to its personnel.  If we want cheap housing to be part of the CF compensation, then we should be cutting pay to balance it out.  But then we're penalizing those who don't live in the Qs to subsidize those who do.



Then perhaps there should be a mandate to pay market salaries.


----------



## Halifax Tar

agc said:
			
		

> Then perhaps there should be a mandate to pay market salaries.



I think the original point of PLD was to compensate for this.  Unfortunately, I would surmise, the Alberta economy has out paced the ability of PLD to be adjusted.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

agc said:
			
		

> Then perhaps there should be a mandate to pay market salaries.



 :rofl:

Have you paid ANY attention to this thread, others, or dare I say it, the real world?


----------



## dapaterson

agc said:
			
		

> Then perhaps there should be a mandate to pay market salaries.



Like $50K to someone with no skills not trained by the employer, with 4 years experience?  Like $100K to mid-level managers?

Already do that.


PLD is a terrible can of worms, since any re-evaluation is across the board.  Meaning places like Halifax & Edmonton would likely lose a lot when the rates are re-assessed.  Anyone want to see their PLD reduced?  Because if it's supposed to ensure an average standard of living, once your relative cost of living goes down, the PLD should also go down.  Or will a cut to Halifax or Edmonton or Toronto PLD get great shrieks of outrage regardless?

I don't have a solution; you can't lock PLD to when someone was posted in, yet if you enter at the top of the real estate market and are then carrying a huge mortgage, just to see the market collapse, so the cost of living is less so your PLD drops it seems unfair as well.


----------



## Halifax Tar

dapaterson said:
			
		

> PLD is a terrible can of worms, since any re-evaluation is across the board.  Meaning places like Halifax & Edmonton would likely lose a lot when the rates are re-assessed.  Anyone want to see their PLD reduced?  Because if it's supposed to ensure an average standard of living, once your relative cost of living goes down, the PLD should also go down.  Or will a cut to Halifax or Edmonton or Toronto PLD get great shrieks of outrage



Sure will.  But they were warned years ago not to bank on PLD.  Mind you in the three you list I would guess only Halifax's would/should be adjusted.  

Anyway when the average household income in the geo area is 100k plus, the the 50k salary suddenly will struggle to stay afloat in that locale.


----------



## OldSolduer

Don't bank on PLD.....just like not banking on LDA.


----------



## agc

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Like $50K to someone with no skills not trained by the employer, with 4 years experience?  Like $100K to mid-level managers?
> 
> Already do that.



I understand the pay rates are based on what work the CF gets out of its people.  The point is that the job market pays more in different ares of the country based on supply and demand.  This creates a big manning problem here as well, because a lot of techs get recruited by the oil companies.  A Cpl's salary goes a lot further in Greenwood than it does in Cold Lake, but the rents are drastically different.  So my point was that if the CF wants to pay an average salary across the country rather than a market one, then charge an average rent rather than a market one.  Good for the members and good for the CF.  _Possibly_ better for CFHA's bottom line as well.


----------



## dimsum

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> The cynic in me asks how much of this is being driven by a desire to get posted to Bagotville, conveniently down the road from ﻿Jonquière?



Funny, that was the first thing I thought too.


----------



## Jarnhamar

I find it pretty telling that twice as many people choose to leave the CF when getting posted to Cold Lake than anywhere else. Many who probably didn't even blink when getting sent to war.


Are CF members living in PMQ's offered the same rights and protections under the Residential Tenancies Act as someone renting a place as a civilian? 
And likewise for responsibilities and whoever owns/runs the PMQs?


----------



## dapaterson

agc said:
			
		

> I understand the pay rates are based on what work the CF gets out of its people.  The point is that the job market pays more in different ares of the country based on supply and demand.  This creates a big manning problem here as well, because a lot of techs get recruited by the oil companies.  A Cpl's salary goes a lot further in Greenwood than it does in Cold Lake, but the rents are drastically different.  So my point was that if the CF wants to pay an average salary across the country rather than a market one, then charge an average rent rather than a market one.  Good for the members and good for the CF.  _Possibly_ better for CFHA's bottom line as well.



A average rent wouldn't work.  Why would someone in Greenwood pay above local rates for living in a Q?

And let's look at a hypothetical no spec pay Cpl in Cold Lake: $4714 (basic pay, no IPC) + $319 PLD = $5033 month, or $60 396 per year - so our 21 year old with no experience outside the military is getting $60K, not 50K.  Not starvation wages, and his rent in the Qs is limited to 25% - but may be less, as the condition of the Q is factored into the rent charged.


----------



## armyvern

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Funny, that was the first thing I thought too.



I can assure you that if my 50K salary, 1/2 that of the average wage in Cold Lake, was going to twice towards bettering my family's QOL if I were posted to another location because PLD is not being dealt with --- I'd pray for a posting out too!!  You seriously going to say that you wouldn't be doing so as well??

Why exactly do you think that people are releasing to get out of there and to avoid going there??  All your comment does is exactly highlight the problem in Cold Lake.  It isn't about this one individual as you are making it out to be --- he is merely the face (the published-martyred face??) of hundreds of others posted there today.

At least this kid went and, apparently the fact that he did is biting his family directly in their asses; kudos to him.


----------



## George Wallace

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I find it pretty telling that twice as many people choose to leave the CF when getting posted to Cold Lake than anywhere else. Many who probably didn't even blink when getting sent to war.



For the most part, you are looking at a different 'demographic' of CAF member.

I know members who have been posted to Cold Lake and loved it up there, and even retired in that location.  Just like any other CFB or Establishment, it is what you make of it.  You will find people who will complain about being posted to Gagetown, Bagotville, Shilo, Wainwright, etc.  This is nothing new.  I heard of large numbers of RCR taking their Release, rather than being posted to Petawawa from London.  I doubt Cold Lake has any larger statistics than any other Base for disgruntled people not wanting to be posted there.


----------



## Kat Stevens

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I can assure you that if my 50K salary, 1/2 that of the average wage in Cold Lake, was going to twice towards bettering my family's QOL if I were posted to another location because PLD is not being dealt with --- I'd pray for a posting out too!!  You seriously going to say that you wouldn't be doing so as well??
> 
> Why exactly do you think that people are releasing to get out of there and to avoid going there??  All your comment does is exactly highlight the problem in Cold Lake.  It isn't about this one individual as you are making it out to be --- he is merely the face (the published-martyred face??) of hundreds of others posted there today.
> 
> At least this kid went and, apparently the fact that he did is biting his family directly in their asses; kudos to him.



Exactly.  Everyone here bangs on about having the courage of your convictions, and eating your own shit.  Well this kid threw himself on his bayonet and did it.


----------



## Quirky

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I find it pretty telling that twice as many people choose to leave the CF when getting posted to Cold Lake than anywhere else.



IIRC when the RCAF CAS was here last summer he addressed the situation as "we'll just recruit more people" and "if you want to release then leave". When you hear something like that from your boss it doesn't exactly boost moral from the base.  :


----------



## armyvern

dapaterson said:
			
		

> ...  Not starvation wages, and his rent in the Qs is limited to 25% - but may be less, as the condition of the Q is factored into the rent charged.



quite correct.  But, the difference between that 33% "fair market value rent" and the 25% he is actually being charged for his shitty PMQ  is then also included on his T4s as "taxable allowances".  Don't forget that bit; it's pretty important too.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Quirky said:
			
		

> IIRC when the RCAF CAS was here last summer he addressed the situation as "we'll just recruit more people" and "if you want to release then leave". When you hear something like that from your boss it doesn't exactly boost moral from the base.  :



Especially in an area where you can possibly get a better paying job.


----------



## smale436

Quirky said:
			
		

> IIRC when the RCAF CAS was here last summer he addressed the situation as "we'll just recruit more people" and "if you want to release then leave". When you hear something like that from your boss it doesn't exactly boost moral from the base.  :



Similar to how one MWO said "if you don't like it, vote with your feet and get out." Well newsflash buddy. People are doing exactly that and I have not met a single one who has released in the last year or two who has regretted that decision. Regardless of whether they had 3 or 23 years of service. In fact, most of them stay in the Cold Lake area. There is only so much "suck it up" people are willing to take before saying "F this."

And as far as recruiting more people, that will likely be easier said than done when a lot of the people just put in their release in Borden after hearing they've been posted to CL or a few month after arriving here. In my trade, I can't think of anyone at the sqn actively working on the line who has more than 8 years on the aircraft in terms of snag/servicing time. Lots of guys with lab and other fleet experience, but otherwise we are hurting.


----------



## George Wallace

Quirky said:
			
		

> IIRC when the RCAF CAS was here last summer he addressed the situation as "we'll just recruit more people" and "if you want to release then leave". When you hear something like that from your boss it doesn't exactly boost moral from the base.  :



No it doesn't boost your moral, nor does it earn that leader any respect from his subordinates.  It is a sign of poor leadership that one should not try to emulate.  [Side Track] That type of comment flows right into another of our topics here: Army Takes On Its Own Toxic Leaders   

It does nothing to honestly address or rectify the housing problem.


----------



## Tibbson

Quirky said:
			
		

> IIRC when the RCAF CAS was here last summer he addressed the situation as "we'll just recruit more people" and "if you want to release then leave". When you hear something like that from your boss it doesn't exactly boost moral from the base.  :



That thinking has been a topic of conversation at my workplace before.   A Pte/Cpl gets ticked and wants to leave then the CAF needs to spend the time and money to recruit a new one and then pay to train him/her so they do what they can to keep them happy and keep them in the CAF.  At the same time, a WO gets ticked the first thing he/she hears is "get out then if you don't like it".  Why?  Because they can just promote a Sgt into the vacancy and pick up the slack over time.


----------



## Strike

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Why exactly do you think that people are releasing to get out of there and to avoid going there??



A lot of it has to do with what their friends are saying and not based on any personal experience whatsoever.  I have yet to meet anyone who has refused to move to Cold Lake.  Sure, I've heard the horror stories about the cost of buying a house and the state of the Qs (which EVERY base is dealing with), but what happens to a government worker (RCMP or Federal Gov for example) that is sent to work in that area?  Do they get any type of dispensation beyond what CAF members get?  I'm not hearing complaints on that end.  Not being confrontational, I really want to know how other federal agencies fare.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Strike said:
			
		

> A lot of it has to do with what their friends are saying and not based on any personal experience whatsoever.  I have yet to meet anyone who has refused to move to Cold Lake.  Sure, I've heard the horror stories about the cost of buying a house and the state of the Qs (which EVERY base is dealing with), but what happens to a government worker (RCMP or Federal Gov for example) that is sent to work in that area?  Do they get any type of dispensation beyond what CAF members get?  I'm not hearing complaints on that end.  Not being confrontational, I really want to know how other federal agencies fare.



RCMP pay rates: http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/recruiting-recrutement/rm-mr/rates-taux-eng.htm#fnb6

Looks like their basic pay is equal to our 4 year Cpl and goes up to 82k.  That's for Constable.  

PS pay rate index.  You will have to be more specific as to which branch you'd like to investigate. 
http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pubs_pol/hrpubs/coll_agre/rates-taux-eng.asp


----------



## Alberta Bound

You also have to consider that although RCMP Members don't get PLD (except a deal through the Municipality in Ft MacMurray) there is Shift differential and of course overtime on top of the base pay. 

Also you don't get ordered to a posting very often except upon graduation from Depot. 

Staffing has a lot of influence over the choices they give you. But not often is it just one choice. It may be Ft Mac, Grande Prairie, Cold Lake, Andrew, Tofield. But you get options.


----------



## Strike

Alberta Bound said:
			
		

> You also have to consider that although RCMP Members don't get PLD (except a deal through the Municipality in Ft MacMurray) there is Shift differential and of course overtime on top of the base pay.



But I bet ya they're told not to plan their finances on their O/T.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Strike said:
			
		

> But I bet ya they're told not to plan their finances on their O/T.



That is what you take out of the previous two replies to your post ?  Not being confrontational towards you but your grasping at straws with that reply.  Especially coming from a Capt who has 10 possible IPCs.


----------



## Strike

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> That is what you take out of the previous two replies to your post ?  Not being confrontational towards you but your grasping at straws with that reply.  Especially coming from a Capt who has 10 possible IPCs.



The post was meant to be tongue in cheek.  Hence the winkie.  :


----------



## Halifax Tar

Strike said:
			
		

> The post was meant to be tongue in cheek.  Hence the winkie.  :



Fair enough


----------



## PPCLI Guy

Alberta Bound said:
			
		

> You also have to consider that although RCMP Members don't get PLD (except a deal through the Municipality in Ft MacMurray) there is Shift differential and of course overtime on top of the base pay.
> 
> Also you don't get ordered to a posting very often except upon graduation from Depot.
> 
> Staffing has a lot of influence over the choices they give you. But not often is it just one choice. It may be Ft Mac, Grande Prairie, Cold Lake, Andrew, Tofield. But you get options.



And?

We are talking about people who chose to be in the military, not the RCMP.

Again, the taxpayers pay us well, and we need to get over ourselves.


----------



## mariomike

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I know members who have been posted to Cold Lake and loved it up there, and even retired in that location.



That's what my sister will do when she retires.


----------



## Strike

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> And?
> 
> We are talking about people who chose to be in the military, not the RCMP.
> 
> Again, the taxpayers pay us well, and we need to get over ourselves.



Seen.  I was trying to find a comparable career (For example, some Federal departments do move their people from time to time.  My own moved 4 times in 6 years, although not sure if this is as common nowadays).  The point being that you don't see these people who are forced to move by their employers having the same issues...or maybe they do but we don't hear about it.  Who knows.

I agree re: the last point as well.  A former course mate of mine was a 2Lt for an extended period (through no fault of his own) on a single income with a child and had student debts from achieving several degrees.  His family lives a frugal happy life and they are now debt free.

It is possible.  It just takes time, patience and lots of planning.


----------



## Jungle

I visited Cold Lake for a few days recently, and I noticed a lot of shiny new pick up trucks, snowmobiles, ATVs, fishing boats... sometimes all in the same PMQ driveway.


----------



## Haggis

And _ it appears _ - at least in this article shared with the usual caveats - that the chain of command is stepping in to address the member's actions.


----------



## OldSolduer

In the late 70s the media was reporting that soldiers were going on welfare etc to make ends meet. I reckon every few years this happens.


----------



## exgunnertdo

I know it's a few posts ago, but on the relationship between the Cpl's salary and the average for the community.  I couldn't help noting that the average wage is higher than a Cpl's in a few communities (I was Googling last night because of this story and a lengthy string of comments on a Facebook post).  In fact, the median income in Canada as a whole is higher than a Cpl's

Canada - 72,240
Kingston - 79,140
NCR (QC side) - 84,410
NCR (ON side) - 97,010
Winnipeg - 74,040

Yet in Toronto, with a pretty high cost of living (especially on the shelter side of it), the median income is only 69,740

Source - http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/famil107a-eng.htm

Kingston, NCR and Winnipeg don't get PLD.  Alberta has a very low tax rate compared to the rest of Canada, so those posted to Cold Lake are getting a bonus that the rest of us don't get (since I am told that one of the reasons the maritimes gets PLD is because of the high taxes).  

I realize the cost of living is high in Cold Lake.  But a Cpl in Cold Lake is making a similar wage in relation to the "median" income in other places in Canada.  And those places don't a dime of PLD.

Also note that the salaries referred to in the earlier article, as well as the Stats Can numbers are *family income*, not individual salaries.  So we are comparing apples to a different variety of apples.  Spousal employment is a whole other topic though.

_(edit to fix typo)_


----------



## Halifax Tar

exgunnertdo said:
			
		

> I know it's a few posts ago, but on the relationship between the Cpl's salary and the average for the community.  I couldn't help noting that the average wage is higher than a Cpl's in a few communities (I was Googling last night because of this story and a lengthy string of comments on a Facebook post).  In fact, the median income in Canada as a whole is higher than a Cpl's
> 
> Canada - 72,240
> Kingston - 79,140
> NCR (QC side) - 84,410
> NCR (ON side) - 97,010
> Winnipeg - 74,040
> 
> Yet in Toronto, with a pretty high cost of living (especially on the shelter side of it), the median income is only 69,740
> 
> Source - http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/famil107a-eng.htm
> 
> Kingston, NCR and Winnipeg don't get PLD.  Alberta has a very low tax rate compared to the rest of Canada, so those posted to Cold Lake are getting a bonus that the rest of us don't get (since I am told that one of the reasons the maritimes gets PLD is because of the high taxes).
> 
> I realize the cost of living is high in Cold Lake.  But a Cpl in Cold Lake is making a similar wage in relation to the "median" income in other places in Canada.  And those places don't a dime of PLD.
> 
> Also note that the salaries referred to in the earlier article, as well as the Stats Can numbers are *family income*, not individual salaries.  So we are comparing apples to a different variety of apples.  Spousal employment is a whole other topic though.
> 
> _(edit to fix typo)_



It really comes down to the cost of living.  You can't compare Kingston to Cold Lake to Halifax to Yellowknife.  They have very different sets of circumstances that have a knock on effects with the local area's cost of living.  

As well the family income is a great way to look at this as it shows the median house hold income of which this Cpl belongs.  You will see his sign says "Posted to Cold Lake with a family please spare change"  or words to that effect.


----------



## dapaterson

So an entry level rank is below the median income.  Is this the Lake Wobegon Armed Forces, where everyone is above average?

In addition, on the apples vs other types of fruits discussion, CAF members receive benefits such as comprehensive medical for themselves, the Public Service medical plan for their dependents, and one of the richest pension plans in the country; if we want to discuss compensation, we need to look at the full package.


----------



## Halifax Tar

dapaterson said:
			
		

> So an entry level rank is below the median income.  Is this the Lake Wobegon Armed Forces, where everyone is above average?
> 
> In addition, on the apples vs other types of fruits discussion, CAF members receive benefits such as comprehensive medical for themselves, the Public Service medical plan for their dependents, and one of the richest pension plans in the country; if we want to discuss compensation, we need to look at the full package.



You view Cpl as an entry level rank ?  

How do you see upping the PLD for those posted to Cold Lake having a reverse effect on the CAF benefits plan ? 

Perhaps PLD should be based on salary and only available to those below a certain income level.


----------



## exgunnertdo

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> It really comes down to the cost of living.  You can't compare Kingston to Cold Lake to Halifax to Yellowknife.  They have very different sets of circumstances that have a knock on effects with the local area's cost of living.
> 
> As well the family income is a great way to look at this as it shows the median house hold income of which this Cpl belongs.  You will see his sign says "Posted to Cold Lake with a family please spare change"  or words to that effect.



True on the cost of living being hard to compare - my comparison was only because of the earlier posts about the fact that the Cpl's salary is so much below the average for the area.  The implication being that the Cpl can't afford what the "average" family can afford in Cold Lake.  The Cpl in Ottawa and Kingston is in the same situation, minus the benefit of PLD, no PST, and low provincial income tax.  

My point is only that I don't think a Cpl in Cold Lake is in a significantly different position than a Cpl in other parts of Canada.  A Cpl might have to tighten their belt a bit, but I don't see where the poverty argument is valid.


----------



## dapaterson

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> You view Cpl as an entry level rank ?
> 
> How do you see upping the PLD for those posted to Cold Lake having a reverse effect on the CAF benefits plan ?
> 
> Perhaps PLD should be based on salary and only available to those below a certain income level.



Yes, it's an entry level rank.  Cpl is automatic in 4 years, often granted after 3.  Not a rank tied to senior leadership or management or high level skillsets.  I would argue that a wider range of IPCs for Cpls should be in place, but that could result in pay / rank inversions (say, a 10 year Cpl might make more than a junior Sgt).

(For officers, OCdt/2Lt/Lt have all become entry ranks, and Capt as well, which is unfortunate.  Lt should be the equivalent of Cpl - trained and employable, with merit-based promotion to all ranks beyond.  At $74K/year, Capt should not be treated as an automatic promotion)

PLD needs a top to bottom overhaul.  Everyone seems to think that their cost of living is above average, a mathematical impossibility.  But any change will see winners and losers, hence the reluctance to change it & make even more folks upset (don't forget, the Treasury Board is made up of cabinet ministers).

I would not be surprised to see PLD adapted and changed to be scaled accoring to rank / income.  It would be a popular move, if not a fair one.


----------



## Halifax Tar

exgunnertdo said:
			
		

> True on the cost of living being hard to compare - my comparison was only because of the earlier posts about the fact that the Cpl's salary is so much below the average for the area.  The implication being that the Cpl can't afford what the "average" family can afford in Cold Lake.  The Cpl in Ottawa and Kingston is in the same situation, minus the benefit of PLD, no PST, and low provincial income tax.
> 
> My point is only that I don't think a Cpl in Cold Lake is in a significantly different position than a Cpl in other parts of Canada.  A Cpl might have to tighten their belt a bit, but I don't see where the poverty argument is valid.



There is a 25k discrepancy between Kingston and Cold Lake avg house hold incomes.  

And as for the NCR I would surmise the opportunity for spousal employment is much greater there so you would see less 1 single cpl pay incomes.


----------



## Halifax Tar

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Yes, it's an entry level rank.  Cpl is automatic in 4 years, often granted after 3.  Not a rank tied to senior leadership or management or high level skillsets.  I would argue that a wider range of IPCs for Cpls should be in place, but that could result in pay / rank inversions (say, a 10 year Cpl might make more than a junior Sgt).
> 
> (For officers, OCdt/2Lt/Lt have all become entry ranks, and Capt as well, which is unfortunate.  Lt should be the equivalent of Cpl - trained and employable, with merit-based promotion to all ranks beyond.  At $74K/year, Capt should not be treated as an automatic promotion)
> 
> PLD needs a top to bottom overhaul.  Everyone seems to think that their cost of living is above average, a mathematical impossibility.  But any change will see winners and losers, hence the reluctance to change it & make even more folks upset (don't forget, the Treasury Board is made up of cabinet ministers).
> 
> I would not be surprised to see PLD adapted and changed to be scaled accoring to rank / income.  It would be a popular move, if not a fair one.



You get no arguments from me.


----------



## Quirky

Jungle said:
			
		

> I visited Cold Lake for a few days recently, and I noticed a lot of shiny new pick up trucks, snowmobiles, ATVs, fishing boats... sometimes all in the same PMQ driveway.



This means what, exactly?


----------



## OldSolduer

What it means is that those toys aren't free. They have to be paid for, and if you're busking because of your toys in driveway, your priorities are mixed up. 

This IS NOT to say this Cpl has done that.


----------



## ModlrMike

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> What it means is that those toys aren't free. They have to be paid for, and if you're busking because of your toys in driveway, your priorities are mixed up.
> 
> This IS NOT to say this Cpl has done that.



Agreed. We also don't know what level of debt this fellow brought with him to Cold Lake. The cost to service his debt is not a factor in determining his base shelter cost.


----------



## Quirky

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> What it means is that those toys aren't free. They have to be paid for, and if you're busking because of your toys in driveway, your priorities are mixed up.



Agreed, however I haven't met anyone living in the Q's complaining about lack of money due to toys, if they are then its their fault. This Cpls case seems to be very common however and judging by his low-budget chevy and canoe, he isn't exactly living the fancy life on base. I'm not going to pass judgement on individual financial situations, there are way to many factors involved - both spouses income, do they have children, did a relative die and leave them money, etc. In the end rent is still way too high and the release rate in Cold Lake is increasing, but with our current leadership in Ottawa I don't see any changes coming unless incidents like this happen more frequently and the MSM gets involved.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> What it means is that those toys aren't free. They have to be paid for, and if you're busking because of your toys in driveway, your priorities are mixed up.
> 
> This IS NOT to say this Cpl has done that.



So really the original post was pointless just like the one claiming he had installed hot tub on his PMQ.


----------



## SupersonicMax

dapaterson said:
			
		

> So an entry level rank is below the median income.  Is this the Lake Wobegon Armed Forces, where everyone is above average?
> 
> In addition, on the apples vs other types of fruits discussion, CAF members receive benefits such as comprehensive medical for themselves, the Public Service medical plan for their dependents, and one of the richest pension plans in the country; if we want to discuss compensation, we need to look at the full package.



We get posted often.  That's the reality of the military and most accept it.  This reality means that spousal employment is going to be often very difficult.  Employers, even though they shouldn't and cannot discriminate on that basis, will choose a non-military spouse over a military spouse.  This is our spouses' reality, regardless of rules, regulations and law.  This needs to be compensated as well.  

Processes and systems are in place for 2 things:  supporting mission and/or supporting people.  If a process doesn't so that, it is not effective.  To me, PLD needs to improve. The "problem seen/problem solved" mentality seriously needs to go away and leaders need to shift their focus to what really matters.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> I don't agree with any military member going to the media. At the end of the day he felt strongly enough to do what he did and will face the consequences. Perhaps this bring to light whats going on at Cold Lake and improve things for pers in hardship postings.




And I just heard a rumour that the Army Commander (LGen Hainse) has issued a memo (e-mail?) to his staff (the whole Army?) saying just that: don't talk to the media.


----------



## OldSolduer

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> And I just heard a rumour that the Army Commander (LGen Hainse) has issued a memo (e-mail?) to his staff (the whole Army?) saying just that: don't talk to the media.



I have not seen this yet, but this would not surprise me. I will most likely see it tomorrow.

My question is - now that we have accepted the fact that the media is always around, will we regress to the "media hates us, we will have nothing to do with them" attitude that was prevalent in the 80s?


----------



## Edward Campbell

In principle, and largely because of my age, and, in even larger measure because of my personal disdain for most (not all!) journalists, I agree with Chief Stoker. I have seen the media distort what they are told by military people who *know* ~ sometimes just through simple ignorance, sometimes from an anti-military bias, and, sometimes, most often, just to "sex up" a story. I have also seen how fickle the media is: they will "run with" a story only until something newer, _shinier_ comes along ~ they're like crows.

But, Jim, you're right. We You need the media on your side and "switching off" doesn't help. But this is a complex story ~ and I reemphasize that none of us know it all ~ and it will be hard to explain in the sorts of intellectual bite sized _snacks_ that journalists need, today. So in this case it is best to leave it to the public affairs people. I'm assuming that's what LGen Hainse (*if* my rumour is true) has in mind.


----------



## blacktriangle

Oil patch pay is very competitive. It has to be. If you compare someone with 8 years of experience in drilling etc, many can be making twice the monthly net wage of a Spec 1 Cpl IPC 4 who has worked an equal amount of years for the CAF. This is a fact. There is overtime, daily subsistence allowance etc. So in theory, an oil rigger who works for 8 months and is laid off for 4 months a year still comes out ahead of our Cpl if we are just looking at up front pay. 

That's a working class job you can do with little initial training or qualification...kind of like joining as a Pte. Only difference is the Oil Rigger chose to go there, the AVN Tech got posted in. Obviously there is more to it than that, and we all chose to be in the CAF. I'm just saying Alberta truly is a tad different than Petawawa etc.


----------



## kratz

CBC.ca

A version of the memo is posted online by CBC already.


----------



## Halifax Tar

I don't see this as a leak if information. I see it a desperate measure creating a desperate action. 

I mean what exactly has this Cpl "leaked" ?


----------



## cudmore

Hello folks, 

Here's something I worked on, today.
I'm not sure how to set it up, though. Maybe it's a warning?

The commander of the Canadian army has threatened to go after soldiers who provide information to the media without permission and "pursue disciplinary action against them," according to a memo sent widely across the land force.

Lt.-Gen. Marquis Hainse said army information and documents are being "leaked" to media agencies, in violation of military rules.

He then went on to apparently attempt to shame the leakers, referring to the passage of information about what's happening inside the army as "a serious lapse in the ethical judgment and behaviour of some of our members."

Hainse said the leaks negatively impact the credibility of the land force he commands.

"It is hurting the army, it is counter-productive, and it needs to stop," he wrote.

"I intend to pursue disciplinary action against any member of the army who is found complicit in the unauthorized release of information."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/army-commander-promises-discipline-against-media-leaks-1.2495204


----------



## PMedMoe

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> I don't see this as a leak if information. I see it a desperate measure creating a desperate action.
> 
> I mean what exactly has this Cpl "leaked" ?



I agree.


----------



## cudmore

The rumour is true.
I reported it and posted a version of the story in a new topic (was that a goof?) with an appropriate thread title.

_Mod note:  Now merged into this thread_


----------



## The Bread Guy

kratz said:
			
		

> CBC.ca
> 
> A version of the memo is posted online by CBC already.


And here it is (with thanks to CBC for sharing a document they're running a story about).



			
				Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> I mean what exactly has this Cpl "leaked" ?


Good question - we'll see if it goes to CM as some un-named sources are leaking suggesting.


----------



## Halifax Tar

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> And here it is.
> Good question - we'll see if it goes to CM as some un-named sources are leaking suggesting.
> I see a merge coming .....



I truly think seeking admin or discipline action on this will only make us look more heartless and cruel.  

If they were smrt they would have drove him to SISIP and begun the process of trying to repair his family finances.  Secondly I hope they start a top down investigation to ensure this wasn't caused by a link in his CoCs neglect and unwillingness to help a subordinate who was crying out for help.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

cudmore said:
			
		

> The rumour is true.
> I reported it and posted a version of the story in a new topic (was that a goof?) with an appropriate thread title.
> 
> _Mod note:  Now merged into this thread_



Not a " goof", just that we like to keep things neat and tidy here.  Mike hires the best OCD folks no money can buy.......


----------



## Occam

I would say the CA would be hard pressed to argue that the Cpl "leaked" anything, but the *timing* of the release of the e-mail would certainly suggest that the threat of disciplinary action would also apply to those who find themselves the subject of media stories, such as the Cpl.

It's a desperate grasp to keep control over anything potentially embarrassing to the CA/CAF, that's for sure.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Mike hires the best OCD folks no money can buy.......


At least I'm in good company  ;D


----------



## Journeyman

There's nothing in the document indicating it's related to the Cpl.  His actions may be embarrassing to the CoC, but there was no "leaked info."


----------



## Occam

Journeyman said:
			
		

> There's nothing in the document indicating it's related to the Cpl.  His actions may be embarrassing to the CoC, but there was no "leaked info."



I agree wholeheartedly that on the face of it, there's nothing stating that the memo has anything to do with the Cpl.  However, you'd have to be pretty naive to think that given the timing, it didn't play a factor in the rationale behind the memo.  Look how fast it got linked in the same thread as this story here on the forum.


----------



## cudmore

The pursuit of "leakers" is not at all related to this corporal.   Different cases all together.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

The 'rule' has always been to stay in your lanes. Don't talk about something that is not in your arcs.

I don't see that the Cpl was wrong in what he said and speaking of his rent, landlord and bills is within his arcs.

There was no leak in my opinion.

I'm sure sitting next to a garbage can and busking is at least as embarrassing for him as the story is to the CAF.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Surprised his posting message to Bagotville hasn't already been cut.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

Occam said:
			
		

> I agree wholeheartedly that on the face of it, there's nothing stating that the memo has anything to do with the Cpl.  However, you'd have to be pretty naive to think that given the timing, it didn't play a factor in the rationale behind the memo.  Look how fast it got linked in the same thread as this story here on the forum.



I think you will find that "the memo" pre-dates the Cold Lake issue by more than a few days.


----------



## Occam

Okay, I haven't seen the memo (other than the un-dated copy from CBC), so I'll take your word for it that it was out before the Cold Lake issue arose.  It just looked a little suspicious with the timing.


----------



## X Royal

Journeyman said:
			
		

> His actions may be embarrassing to the CoC, but there was no "leaked info."


I agree no leaked information.
As for "_may be embarrassing to the CoC_" my guess it's only embarrassing to the chain of command due to it's embarrassing to the politicians. When the politicians feel any heat they start firing salvos at the easiest target which is the CDS. The CDS is a political appointee so he jumps when told to or won't be there too long. Crap quickly rolls down hill from this point.


----------



## George Wallace

Sun News coverage of this incident from 13 Jan 2013.


----------



## Sub_Guy

That's good for the Canadian Army, considering this guy is in Cold Lake and is probably a member of the RCAF.   

I can just imagine trying to keep everyone quiet from the early 90's when it seemed that every base had PMQ's that were falling apart, and the stories of soldiers going to food banks were common.  (I still think those stories about food banks were misleading)


----------



## Occam

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Sun News coverage of this incident from 13 Jan 2013.



Well, he was _close_.

He gave the salary range of a Cpl as being $56568 to $74988, which is actually the range of Cpl 5A Standard IPC Basic to Cpl 5B Specialist 2 IPC 4.  The problem with that is that Cpl 5B is actually Master Corporal, and that Specialist 2 pay column is only paid out to a proportionally miniscule number of people such as SAR Techs, Flight Engineers and Mar Eng Articifers - and even fewer will be found at the Cpl rank.  

For all intents and purposes, the actual range for Corporals is $56568 to $67788.

</pedant>

A small aside:  When are we finally going to get rid of the abomination of MCpl being an appointment and not a rank?  It not only confuses the media, it even confuses some of our own people.


----------



## Jungle

Quirky said:
			
		

> This means what, exactly?



It means that I observed a lot of shiny, expensive toys in the Cold Lake PMQs. I am not saying it is the case of the Cpl in the story, but not everybody in the Cold Lake PMQs is a CWO or Maj and above...


----------



## Pusser

If folks start looking carefully at how much a corporal makes, the fact that CF members don't have to pay for their training and the value of all the other benefits CF members receive, then the tide of public sympathy can easily be turned against us.  I have no idea what this guy's debt load is, but there are certainly many others across Canada who are getting by just fine on considerably less than a corporal's base salary - and that's what the public will notice.

If any CF member wants to go out an earn extra money by busking or moonlighting, there's nothing wrong with that and in that sense, this guy has done nothing wrong.  Where he's gone astray is in making it a protest against government policy.  If he'd not put out his helmet to collect the cash and he'd not mentioned that he was a soldier on his sign, then this wouldn't have even made the local, let alone national news.  This isn't that much different than the mountie who went on TV, smoking a joint in his red serge.  He was doing something entirely legal and ethical, but chose to cross the line and make a political issue out of it.


----------



## George Wallace

Pusser said:
			
		

> If any CF member wants to go out an earn extra money by busking or moonlighting, there's nothing wrong with that and in that sense, this guy has done nothing wrong.  Where he's gone astray is in making it a protest against government policy.  If he'd not put out his helmet to collect the cash and he'd not mentioned that he was a soldier on his sign, then this wouldn't have even made the local, let alone national news.  This isn't that much different than the mountie who went on TV, smoking a joint in his red serge.  He was doing something entirely legal and ethical, but chose to cross the line and make a political issue out of it.



I disagree; unless you unintentionally contradicted yourself.  There is nothing wrong with a CF member wanting to earn extra money moonlighting.  *There is something wrong*, as in this case, with the CAF member protesting the government and bringing the CAF into that form of protest.  

As for your Mountie example; that Mountie faced disciplinary action for his 'stunt'.  We will likely see this Cpl face disciplinary action as well.


----------



## Haggis

George Wallace said:
			
		

> We will likely see this Cpl face disciplinary action as well.



It will be interstiong to see if this Cpl did indeed exhaust all the COAs available to assist him and his family before going this route.  It will also be interesting to see if the Chaion of Command was responsive to his attempts (if any) to purse the appropriate COAs.


----------



## Occam

George Wallace said:
			
		

> As for your Mountie example; that Mountie faced disciplinary action for his 'stunt'.



He did?  I don't want to derail the thread, but I know he had his red serge seized and he was charged for assaulting another RCMP officer when they found him disoriented on the street, but I had not heard of any disciplinary action for smoking the joint in uniform.


----------



## Pusser

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I disagree; unless you unintentionally contradicted yourself.  There is nothing wrong with a CF member wanting to earn extra money moonlighting.  *There is something wrong*, as in this case, with the CAF member protesting the government and bringing the CAF into that form of protest.



No contradiction.  We're in agreement that he has gone astray by making this a protest.  However, busking is not the same as protesting.  Busking is simply street performing and is a legitimate means of making money (lots of people do it legally and make a living at it).  If he wants to sit on a street corner and play his guitar for money, there's nothing wrong with that (provided he has proper permission from the applicable municipal authority).  Putting out an identifiable piece of a CF uniform and a sign implying that the CF has driven him to poverty was what he's done wrong.


----------



## George Wallace

I did not say busking was not a legitimate method of moonlighting, nor a form of protest.


----------



## OldSolduer

This is what I term the "Culture of Embarassment". A busking corporal, a soldier with PTSD who could not get on an Air Canada flight - the list goes on and on.

In every case the media bites and swallows. The CF leadership is made to look like ogres and fools, while the busking corporals are always right.

 :facepalm:


----------



## pbi

> If they were smrt they would have drove him to SISIP and begun the process of trying to repair his family finances.


"They"?

How about getting off his ass and getting HIMSELF to SISIP, and repairing his own family finances, which is what *he's* responsible to do, not the chain of command.

I doubt very much that Gen Hainse would issue an Army memo to address an RCAF issue. This was probably motivated by something else. I should declare my bias here: I had the great pleasure to work directly for Gen Hainse for a while, and I have a very high opinion of him, as do most people (incl allies) whom I have met who have also served with him. 

It has always been against the rules to "leak": he's just reminding everybody. Hes not saying don't talk to the media, just "stay in your lane", which was the rule even before Afghanistan.


----------



## AmmoTech90

My guess, and that is all it is, is that the leak concerns stem from the ATI that revealed the concerns over being able to support commerative events and carry out operations given budget cuts.  While the ATI is of course not a leak, the prompting for a journalist to make such an ATI could be considered one.

My  :2c:


----------



## pbi

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> My guess, and that is all it is, is that the leak concerns stem from the ATI that revealed the concerns over being able to support commerative events and carry out operations given budget cuts.  While the ATI is of course not a leak, the prompting for a journalist to make such an ATI could be considered one.
> 
> My  :2c:



Something like that seems more probable.


----------



## Journeyman

We actually need to hear a YouTube video of how well the kid plays -- _then_ we can judge his actions.  op:


----------



## Jarnhamar

A bit off topic (and I'm not implying this is the case but) what stops a journalist from making something up and then "leaking" the information from an "unknown source"?   Do journalists have to keep an actual record of their sources for legal reasons?


----------



## tomahawk6

Do members of the CF receive an cost of living allowance for living in expensive areas ?


----------



## Nfld Sapper

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Do members of the CF receive an cost of living allowance for living in expensive areas ?



That's what PLD is T6....



> The purpose of the PLD is to reduce the adverse financial impact on military members and their families when posted to a PLDA (excluding isolated posts) with a COL above the national average. PLD rates represent the monthly differential between the COL at the Standard City and the COL at established PLDAs, grossed-up by the applicable marginal tax rate. PLD rates are taxable and are set annually based on a Treasury Board-approved methodology



And here are the rates:



> PLDA	Monthly PLD (in dollars) after March 2008
> Aldergrove              418
> Barrie -Borden           0
> Brantford                   0
> Calgary                 711
> Cambridge             71
> Chatham ON           0
> Chilliwack               0
> Cold Lake             319
> Corner Brook           0
> Dundurn-Saskatoon 0
> Edmonton            684
> Gander                     0
> Grand Falls - Windsor 0
> Guelph                 167
> Halifax                631
> Hamilton            414
> Kamloops/Kelowna 525
> Kenora                   0
> Kingston              0
> Kitchener            62
> Lethbridge         234
> London                0
> Meaford-Owen Sound 77
> Medicine Hat      145
> Montreal North Shore  505
> Montreal South Shore 376
> Moose Jaw  284
> Nanaimo 75
> Niagara/St. Catharines 0
> North Bay 0
> Ottawa/Gatineau 0
> Peterborough - DND 0
> Prince Albert 0
> Quebec City - Valcartier 117
> Red Deer 327
> Regina 62
> Rouyn-Noranda 0
> Sarnia 0
> Saskatoon 382
> Sault Ste Marie 0
> Sept -Îles -DND 107
> Sherbrooke 0
> Shilo 0
> Saint-Hyacinthe 0
> Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu 0
> St. John's 149
> Stratford - DND 82
> Sudbury 0
> Thunder Bay 0
> Timmins 0
> Toronto Area 1  1,485
> Toronto Area 2    506
> Toronto Area 3    522
> Toronto Area 4    819
> Toronto Area 5  1,167
> Trail 0
> Vancouver 1,083
> Victoria/Esquimalt 816
> Windsor 0
> Winnipeg 0


----------



## pbi

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Do members of the CF receive an cost of living allowance for living in expensive areas ?



Yes. It varies depending where you are. When I lived in the Greater Toronto Area in 2005-2007, the gross allowance was about $1100.00 Cdn/month. When I lived in Winnipeg 2002-2005, it was about $60.00/month (which seemed hardly worth the paperwork).


----------



## tomahawk6

Thanks.So to resolve the issue maybe an increase in PLD for Cold Lake would be the way to go ?


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Simon Kent joins Brian to discuss how the outrage over the armed forces member busking is off-the-mark.



Actually a good listen....

Already posted... didn't see it.... :facepalm:


----------



## George Wallace

Already posted.


----------



## Journeyman

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Actually a good listen....


I didn't think it was worth the 10 minutes.  

Basically, you have a 'reporter' who's more of a pro-CF cheerleader (which in itself seems odd) who knows nothing of the Cpl's personal situation, but managed to Google (and misreport) CF pay scales.  He's then joined by......an expert?  Nope, just _another_ reporter -- who also knows nothing of the kid's situation -- but is brought in to say the same things over again.

Does it feel good that people are actually saying the CF is doing things and support is available?  Yes.  Is it news?  Not really.

 :2c:


----------



## Quirky

The only saving grace this young Cpl, and pretty much any AVN/AVS posted to 4 Wing, has is a recognized trade that can go towards his apprenticeship for pretty much anything mechanical in the oil patch. Attitudes in young people getting posted here in the past few years have changed big time. They see their buddies leaving for greener pastures, often proclaiming how much better it is on the outside - you'd have to be pretty patriotic to stick it out for the majority of your career in Cold Lake. Money and budgets are tight and a posting out of here is like winning the lottery. For the younger generation money counts big time and most companies offer nearly identical benefits and pension packages to what the CF does. IMO, most major civy companies out here value their worker more than the CF/Government does right now. If the CAS truly believes that "we'll just recruit more people" will solve all the issues then I wish him good luck.  :-X  :2c:


----------



## smale436

Jungle said:
			
		

> It means that I observed a lot of shiny, expensive toys in the Cold Lake PMQs. I am not saying it is the case of the Cpl in the story, but not everybody in the Cold Lake PMQs is a CWO or Maj and above...



That's actually a fairly accurate statement applicable to those residing on AND off base. In fact, I seem to recall the RV/Boat winter parking compound needing to be expanded due to no more spots available and a long waiting list. Yet I picked up our CO once at the airport and we had a long chat about various topics during the 3 hour drive. Of course the cost of living came up and he remarked how he wanted a boat and in theory "could" afford it dollar-wise but "couldn't" afford it good decision-wise. He already had a ski-doo and figured kids sports and activities were a better year-round investment compared to a boat that would not get much use based on Cold Lake's short summer. His vehicle happened to be a 13 year old truck he bought new.


----------



## jgerson

Hello,

I'm sorry, guys, I don't mean to troll. My name is Jen Gerson and I'm a reporter with the National Post. I'm writing a story about the economic/housing conditions up in CFB Cold Lake and I'm really hoping to find some military personnel with families who are trying to make ends meet. I understand people have been told not to speak to the media and I don't want to get anybody into trouble -- I'll be happy to respect a request for anonymity, if you wish. But I think a lot of civilians would be shocked by the conditions and this is a story that is really going to get the government's attention. However, I really need to speak to people who are actually dealing with these conditions. 

If you're wiling, my email address is jgerson@nationalpost.com: 403 228 0349. Alternatively, feel free to pass this note around to anyone who has recently left the military and gone on to the oil patch due to the economic situation. I'd be happy to speak to them as well.

Warm Regards,
Jen Gerson


----------



## Journeyman

jgerson said:
			
		

> ..... I'm really hoping to find some military personnel with families who are trying to make ends meet.


So, you're not interested in talking with those who plan financially, live responsibly within their means, and essentially aren't out to embarrass the military.

    :not-again:  


No response required; you're already set to <ignore>


----------



## jgerson

Well, I'm trying to juggle a few things at once, but of course!

If you think what Cpl. Tremblay did was not acceptable, or that the cost of living situation isn't a concern, I'd be happy to hear from you as well! 

Regards,
Jen Gerson


----------



## McG

I guess this is the product:


> *After Cold Lake soldier caught busking to make ends meet, viability of military pay in booming ‘little Fort McMurray’ called into question*
> National Post
> Jen Gerson
> 17 January 2014
> 
> CALGARY — Last week, 25-year-old Cpl. Darenn Tremblay set up a folding blue lawn chair on a snow-packed sidewalk in front of a Cold Lake, Alta., big box store, picked up a guitar and began to busk.
> 
> Next to him, a folded cardboard sign said: “I am in the Canadian Forces posted to Cold Lake with family any spare change will help.”
> 
> The young corporal offered his upturned green helmet, for spare change.
> 
> “I do that because we don’t have any money to pay our rent basically,” Cpl. Tremblay told the Sun newspaper chain. He is now facing an investigation for disrespecting the Armed Forces, and declined to respond to other interview requests.
> 
> Reactions to the stunt vary: several soldiers who spoke on condition of anonymity said they were deeply embarrassed about the use of a helmet.
> 
> “It’s a very disrespectful pictures to all CF members,” said one. “Before we are posted to Cold Lake, we go through several interviews with regards to seclusion, as well as the cost of living there. He would have known what he was getting into being posted there. He should be charged and booted from the Forces.”
> 
> Like most soldiers, the 1,750 military personnel and 450 civilian employees who work on the base are generally service-minded people, little inclined to kick up a public fuss. Incidents like this are rare and jarring.
> 
> But that doesn’t mean the soldiers in Cold Lake don’t know why Cpl. Tremblay needed to busk.
> 
> After a oil boom that has dramatically pushed up the cost of goods, services and rent, advocacy groups and local political leaders have found themselves appalled by the conditions faced by the young soldiers. While higher ranking officers and single soldiers are comfortable, junior staff with families are struggling to pay basic bills. As many as one third of soldiers on the base have taken a second job just to make ends meet.
> 
> CFB Cold Lake, 300 km northeast of Edmonton, has been one of Canada’s premier air force bases for more than 60 years. A massive swath of land just outside the town of 14,000 is dedicated to air weapons training.
> 
> Below the action in the air lives a rapidly growing oil patch. And like other oil boom towns, as the workers moved in, the rent and cost of living began to rise dramatically.
> 
> To mitigate such problems, the military uses a bureaucratic formula called a Post Living Differential (PLD), which is meant to even out the local economic differences between military personnel.
> 
> However, the fee has been frozen since 2010, so it hasn’t factored in the spike in rent in military-owned housing. Soldiers in Cold lake receive a PLD of $319 a month — less than half what those stationed near Edmonton receive.
> 
> It’s also considered a taxable benefit — it winds up putting only about $100 in a soldier’s pocket every paycheque.
> 
> “A lot of oil patch people will call Cold Lake ‘little Fort McMurray,’” said the town’s mayor, Craig Copeland.
> 
> “Rent in Cold Lake has gone up from five years ago. You used to be able to get a two-bedroom apartment around $1,000 to $1,200 a month and now, because of the latest boom in the oil patch, in the last year and a half or so … rent has really shot up. Now two-bedroom apartments, good ones, are going for between $1,800 to $2,200.”
> 
> About a decade ago, the military stopped subsidizing its on-base housing. Instead, they began to charge the local market rate for rents. In order to maintain a “nationally consistent process,” the military calculates the rents in Ottawa using Canadian Mortgage Housing Corporation data.
> 
> That process isn’t forgiving to soldiers who live in remote towns struck by oil wealth.
> 
> “A normal person would look at this story, see a house built in the ‘50s and ask ‘Why in the world are you charging market rate rents for these people? They work for you? Why do we need to gouge them on the rent?’” said the mayor.
> 
> Fearing backlash, few soldiers were willing to speak candidly about the situation. Christine, a soldier’s wife with three young children, said even spouses are too concerned to complain publicly.
> 
> “We get crap living conditions,” she said. “Every year my husband gets a raise and our rent goes up. It doesn’t matter.”
> 
> After almost two years on the base, she said her husband’s paycheque of about $58,000 is not covering basic expenses.
> 
> “Our paycheques do not pay our day-to-day living. We were very lucky in the sense that when we came here, we had money saved up, but that’s all dwindled and we’ve been pulling out of our house-savings fund,” she said.
> 
> ... (more at link)


 http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/01/17/after-cold-lake-soldier-caught-busking-to-make-ends-meet-questions-asked-about-the-viability-of-military-pay-in-booming-little-fort-mcmurray/


----------



## Infanteer

jgerson said:
			
		

> But I think a lot of civilians would be shocked by the conditions and this is a story that is really going to get the government's attention. However, I really need to speak to people who are actually dealing with these conditions



So, are you certain these conditions exist or are you speculating right now?


----------



## Pusser

One point that often gets forgotten in discussions about PMQ rents is that if they are not at the market rate, it creates an unfair situation for those who do not live in them.  Why should some CF members have access to subsidized housing when others do not?  Remember that all those who do not live in base housing are also paying market rates.


----------



## George Wallace

Pusser said:
			
		

> One point that often gets forgotten in discussions about PMQ rents is that if they are not at the market rate, it creates an unfair situation for those who do not live in them.  Why should some CF members have access to subsidized housing when others do not?  Remember that all those who do not live in base housing are also paying market rates.



The point to remember here is that in most cases those not living in subsidized housing on Base and paying rent, are paying a mortgage for a house that meets their 'needs' and will belong to them; an investment that they can sell when they move.


----------



## Quirky

> http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/01/17/after-cold-lake-soldier-caught-busking-to-make-ends-meet-questions-asked-about-the-viability-of-military-pay-in-booming-little-fort-mcmurray/
> 
> 
> 
> He should be charged and booted from the Forces.
Click to expand...


Great way to solve the problem, charge and kick him out. :facepalm: I believe in this case, doing just that would only make matters worse.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Jen Gersons article seemed pretty good to me.  I'm shocked to read that rent went from $1000 to $2000 +/- over the course of a few years and soldiers there get a net of $100 a paycheck from pld. 

So if a member is in one of the interviews regarding being posted to the remote location and says nope I won't be able to do it, does that mean they will get posted somewhere else instead?


----------



## ModlrMike

George Wallace said:
			
		

> The point to remember here is that in most cases those not living in subsidized housing on Base and paying rent, are paying a mortgage for a house that meets their 'needs' and will belong to them; an investment that they can sell when they move.



True, but it more importantly penalizes those who can't get into a PMQ due to availability or other factors, and have to pay market rent on the economy.


----------



## George Wallace

Quirky said:
			
		

> MCG said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess this is the product: http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/01/17/after-cold-lake-soldier-caught-busking-to-make-ends-meet-questions-asked-about-the-viability-of-military-pay-in-booming-little-fort-mcmurray/
> 
> 
> 
> He should be charged and booted from the Forces.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Great way to solve the problem, charge and kick him out. :facepalm: I believe in this case, doing just that would only make matters worse.
Click to expand...


If you are going to make a quote and then screw up that quote making it appear that someone made a statement that they did not, then you are breaching our ethics here.


----------



## George Wallace

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> True, but it more importantly penalizes those who can't get into a PMQ due to availability or other factors, and have to pay market rent on the economy.



NO.  It does not.  If the subsidized housing is not up to the same standards of construction and maintenance as those on the economy, why should someone pay the same going rates.  Would you pay $1000 to live in a shack with no insulation on Base, when you can pay $1000 to rent a fully insulated, maintained home on the economy.  This is BS.


----------



## PuckChaser

George Wallace said:
			
		

> NO.  It does not.  If the subsidized housing is not up to the same standards of construction and maintenance as those on the economy, why should someone pay the same going rates.  Would you pay $1000 to live in a shack with no insulation on Base, when you can pay $1000 to rent a fully insulated, maintained home on the economy.  This is BS.



I think that is the root of the issue. CF members don't mind paying market rates, for market-standard housing. When you're paying 50% of the cost of your rent on heat every month because subj PMQ hasn't been modernized since 1962, people have issues when CFHA demands market rent.


----------



## Quirky

George Wallace said:
			
		

> If you are going to make a quote and then screw up that quote making it appear that someone made a statement that they did not, then you are breaching our ethics here.



That was not my intention. Anyone reading this thread probably understands that I quoted the article, not the poster.


----------



## armyvern

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Great way to solve the problem, charge and kick him out. :facepalm: I believe in this case, doing just that would only make matters worse.
> 
> 
> If you are going to make a quote and then screw up that quote making it appear that someone made a statement that they did not, then you are breaching our ethics here.



George,  the quote is indeed in/from the linked article.


----------



## armyvern

Pusser said:
			
		

> One point that often gets forgotten in discussions about PMQ rents is that if they are not at the market rate, it creates an unfair situation for those who do not live in them.  *Why should some CF members have access to subsidized housing when others do not? * Remember that all those who do not live in base housing are also paying market rates.



Again, someone is forgetting to mention that the difference between "fair market value" and what they are actually paying is also included on the member's T4s as taxable income.  IE:  If this kid is paying only 75% of "fair market value", then the 25% difference that he does not pay each month is tallied up and included on his T4s as taxable allowances & benefits.


----------



## blacktriangle

DND would be wise to get out of the housing business - leave that to professional investors and landlords. Pay people a reasonable PLD if the market requires it, and review rates often. Stop trying to pretend that we can actually get it right with PMQ's.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

Spectrum said:
			
		

> DND would be wise to get out of the housing business - leave that to professional investors and landlords. Pay people a reasonable PLD if the market requires it, and review rates often. Stop trying to pretend that we can actually get it right with PMQ's.



 :goodpost:

Bingo.


----------



## George Wallace

Spectrum said:
			
		

> DND would be wise to get out of the housing business - leave that to professional investors and landlords. Pay people a reasonable PLD if the market requires it, and review rates often. Stop trying to pretend that we can actually get it right with PMQ's.



DND got out of the housing business a long time ago.  That is how CFHA got started.  It was DND's way of privatizing its PMQs as a cost saving measure.  Prior to CFHA taking over, all maintenance and repairs to the PMQs were done by CE.


----------



## armyvern

Spectrum said:
			
		

> DND would be wise to get out of the housing business - leave that to professional investors and landlords. Pay people a reasonable PLD if the market requires it, and review rates often. Stop trying to pretend that we can actually get it right with PMQ's.



Exactly; sorting out PLD being a key requirement.


----------



## PuckChaser

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Exactly; sorting out PLD being a key requirement.



I think our control over PLD is extremely limited, and TBS being the giant, slow-moving bureaucracy it is, leaves our members posted near the oilpatch screwed. Cost of living moves faster than a going-on 5 year freeze of PLD.

Hence, we get the mess we're in now.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

George Wallace said:
			
		

> DND got out of the housing business a long time ago.  That is how CFHA got started.  It was DND's way of privatizing its PMQs as a cost saving measure.  Prior to CFHA taking over, all maintenance and repairs to the PMQs were done by CE.



Sadly, the Army is still on the hook for the upkeep and maintenance of the infrastructure - roads, sewers, sidewalks etc.  That means that money for sewers and drains competes with money for operational buildings, Ranges and Training Areas etc.  We need to get completely out of the business.  Our corps business is the production, sustainment and employment of lethal combat power.  Being in the running for "Canada's Worst Landlord" detracts from that focus.

As an aside, I live in a PMQ in Edmonton (and own a house in Ottawa that I rent out).  The Q's are adequate, and I consider them to be fair market value.  I have a 4 bedroom house with a big yard for about $1385 a month.  I rent out my comparable (albeit newer and better finished) house in Ottawa for $1350 a month (which is lower than market value - I like my tenant!)


----------



## Quirky

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Exactly; sorting out PLD being a key requirement.



I believe that sorting out the PMQ costs would be more important. Drastically lowering the PMQ rent would give families and smart, single men and women, the opportunity to save up enough money for a down-payment on property in town. Raising PLD a few hundred bux a month won't do squat.


----------



## armyvern

Quirky said:
			
		

> I believe that sorting out the PMQ costs would be more important. Drastically lowering the PMQ rent would give families and smart, single men and women, the opportunity to save up enough money for a down-payment on property in town. Raising PLD a few hundred bux a month won't do squat.



Smart men and women will buy houses eventually (if they really want to own - some don't).

I grew up in the army of the 90s; was a Pte living in a Q with 2 kids in those times when food banks were de rigeur.  I own a house (a couple of them now). I never went to a food bank.  Our pay was frozen for years and was well below the national average back then.  PLD didn't exist.  How did I ever mange to do it??

Troops today get awesome pay and benefits; some get PLD (however screwed up that system is).  No pay freeze is in effect (we only got pay raises with actual promotions/all incentives were frozen).  I managed to save up, why exactly can't they?


----------



## PPCLI Guy

Quirky said:
			
		

> I believe that sorting out the PMQ costs would be more important. Drastically lowering the PMQ rent would give families and smart, single men and women, the opportunity to save up enough money for a down-payment on property in town. Raising PLD a few hundred bux a month won't do squat.



Troops with 4 years in get 60K+ salaries.  The taxpayer has done their bit, by paying us very well - indeed quite above the national average.  How about we man up, manage our own affairs (just like the taxpayers that pay us) and save to buy a house just like everyone else.

I will say it again.  We are not that special, and need to get over ourselves.


----------



## McG

I found the solution to PMQ costs in Cold Lake.  Truck in a few even older homes from Edmonton:  http://globalnews.ca/news/1091160/future-of-century-old-garneau-homes-up-in-the-air/
Aside from shipping and installation, they are free.

[Caveat: This post was made in sarcasm]


----------



## Occam

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Troops with 4 years in get 60K+ salaries.  The taxpayer has done their bit, by paying us very well - indeed quite above the national average.  How about we man up, manage our own affairs (just like the taxpayers that pay us) and save to buy a house just like everyone else.
> 
> I will say it again.  We are not that special, and need to get over ourselves.



Yes, troops with 4 years in get 60K+ salaries.  The fact is that the area around Cold Lake is swamped with people earning $100K+ incomes, and the cost of everyday living is rising to meet the higher average salary.  The problem is that CF pay and benefits (specifically PLD) aren't reacting to that local change in cost of living.

The taxpayers are not playing from the same playbook that the CF is.  The taxpayers don't get moved around on a whim.  Taxpayers aren't forced with a decision between substandard housing at a standard price, or buying on the economy when nobody else in their right mind would purchase a home because they might have to sell it at a substantial loss.

Give this a read - http://www.ombudsman.forces.gc.ca/en/ombudsman-reports-stats-investigations-cold-lake/cold-lake-report.page.  Then let us know if you can still make the statement above.  

I sure am glad I don't ever have to worry about being posted there anymore.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Well, the fact that the PLD baseline is Ottawa demonstrate an intent that DND wants to make Ottawa cost of living a benchmark.  In my books, it means that after taxes, average housing fees (mortgage/rent, municipal taxes, heating, etc), food for an average family, daycare/school, gas, insurance, etc,  what's left in your pocket is at least the same as if you were posted to Ottawa.  Some postings will net you more, because cost of life is cheaper, but it should never be less than Ottawa.

Cold Lake, in that optic, is screwed up.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

Occam said:
			
		

> Yes, troops with 4 years in get 60K+ salaries.  The fact is that the area around Cold Lake is swamped with people earning $100K+ incomes, and the cost of everyday living is rising to meet the higher average salary.  The problem is that CF pay and benefits (specifically PLD) aren't reacting to that local change in cost of living.
> 
> The taxpayers are not playing from the same playbook that the CF is.  The taxpayers don't get moved around on a whim.  Taxpayers aren't forced with a decision between substandard housing at a standard price, or buying on the economy when nobody else in their right mind would purchase a home because they might have to sell it at a substantial loss.
> 
> Give this a read - http://www.ombudsman.forces.gc.ca/en/ombudsman-reports-stats-investigations-cold-lake/cold-lake-report.page.  Then let us know if you can still make the statement above.
> 
> I sure am glad I don't ever have to worry about being posted there anymore.



My comments were in response to Quirky's suggestion that we provide low cost housing to all:



> I believe that sorting out the PMQ costs would be more important. Drastically lowering the PMQ rent would give families and smart, single men and women, the opportunity to save up enough money for a down-payment on property in town. Raising PLD a few hundred bux a month won't do squat.



I believe that PLD is both the issue and the answer, as it addresses your point with respect to our requirement to move.  Hopefully we can make some progress there.  I know that the Dept is trying hard to get this file moving.


----------



## Occam

Seen.  Reducing the rents at the RHUs wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea as part of the solution - at least reducing them to a rate that's fair for the condition that they're in, for sure.  I agree with you - "low cost housing for all" just isn't realistic.  Sufficient numbers of fairly priced RHUs, in markets where buying on the economy isn't feasible for one reason or another, should be a minimum though.


----------



## DAA

I remember the days when PMQ Rents were standardized right across the country.  Rent for a 3 Bdrm Row House was based on your "rank" and regardless of where you were in Canada, the cost was the same.  When AAA (Accommodation Assistance Allowance) was around, it was based on not just the area you lived but also on both "Rank and Family Size" but the higher your rank, the more you received and the larger your family, the more you received again.

Then suddenly DND/CF decided it wanted/needed to get out of the Housing Business, created CFHA and moved to a "fair market value" model and AAA was replaced with a standardized rate for PLD based on area.

The only thing that makes me scratch my head about PLD, is the rationale behind a MSC receiving 150% of the rate (ie; 75% each), while a regular married member only gets 100% and the spouse probably doesn't have a job.

Oh well, back to the drawing board...


----------



## Jarnhamar

I called and it sounds like the CFHA isn't held to the same standards as civilian renters.   Maybe one step towards correcting the issue with PMQ housing is to hold them accountable to the Canadian Landlord Tenant Act.


----------



## PuckChaser

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I called and it sounds like the CFHA isn't held to the same standards as civilian renters.   Maybe one step towards correcting the issue with PMQ housing is to hold them accountable to the Canadian Landlord Tenant Act.



I believe the first excuse we'd hear is that each province is responsible for Landlord/Tenant policies, and they may vary, and having different standards for each province CFHA has housing in would be "too difficult".  I'm in agreement with you though, the only option to fix substandard housing is to move out, which is not a solution.


----------



## Strike

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I believe the first excuse we'd hear is that each province is responsible for Landlord/Tenant policies, and they may vary, and having different standards for each province CFHA has housing in would be "too difficult".  I'm in agreement with you though, the only option to fix substandard housing is to move out, which is not a solution.



So...if CFHA doesn't follow the provincial landlord/tenant policies (I didn't know this btw), does that mean that one could withhold payment for services (ie - rent) if those services (maintenance of the property for example) have not been carried out to a satisfactory level?   :stirpot:  I'm just thinking about how many times I've heard complaints about windows, plumbing, flooding, etc.  It would seem hypocritical in such a case to not have to follow such an act but then expect your tenants to do so.

*** I am not advocating that people stop paying rent because of lack of adequate services.  Just thinking out loud.


----------



## GAP

Strike said:
			
		

> So...if CFHA doesn't follow the provincial landlord/tenant policies (I didn't know this btw), does that mean that one could withhold payment for services (ie - rent) if those services (maintenance of the property for example) have not been carried out to a satisfactory level?   :stirpot:  I'm just thinking about how many times I've heard complaints about windows, plumbing, flooding, etc.  It would seem hypocritical in such a case to not have to follow such an act but then expect your tenants to do so.
> 
> *** I am not advocating that people stop paying rent because of lack of adequate services.  Just thinking out loud.



There was an excellent explanation in the previous housing thread that distinguished the differences between what the federal gov is responsible for and what it is not vs the provincal landlord/tennant policies....can't find it right now.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Strike said:
			
		

> So...if CFHA doesn't follow the provincial landlord/tenant policies (I didn't know this btw), does that mean that one could withhold payment for services (ie - rent) if those services (maintenance of the property for example) have not been carried out to a satisfactory level?   :stirpot:



Good question  :nod:    When I called the man I spoke with said he didn't think they did but asked me to call Monday for a better answer so I'm calling back.

From the articles I'm reading it says that the CF chain of command etc.. has pretty much no say over anything that goes on with the CFHA but the CFHA can involve a members chain of command pretty quickly if they're mad about something.


----------



## McG

DAA said:
			
		

> Then suddenly DND/CF decided ...


Neither DND nor the CF decided anything in this case.  TB ordered that rent would be based on market rate.
Rental cost of any government building cannot under-cut local market rates.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

It's not like the PMQs are older and not actually worth "fair market value", so it's a fair deal.   >


----------



## Ostrozac

MCG said:
			
		

> Rental cost of any government building cannot under-cut local market rates.



Well, not quite ANY building. Rates for Single Quarters are still determined nationally, which is the justification for why single living in members are not eligible for PLD. I suspect that the CF can get away with national rates for this because the long term objective (at least the one spelled out in Accommodation 2020) is to eventually get all trained single personnel out of the shacks.

Is that a stopgap solution for Cold Lake until PLD is fixed? Build a ton of single quarters and start only posting in guys who are single? Or does that constitute discrimination based on family status?


----------



## smale436

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> Well, not quite ANY building. Rates for Single Quarters are still determined nationally, which is the justification for why single living in members are not eligible for PLD. I suspect that the CF can get away with national rates for this because the long term objective (at least the one spelled out in Accommodation 2020) is to eventually get all trained single personnel out of the shacks.
> 
> Is that a stopgap solution for Cold Lake until PLD is fixed? Build a ton of single quarters and start only posting in guys who are single? Or does that constitute discrimination based on family status?



I assume, and I sure hope I'm not wrong, that you are being sarcastic with regard to "posting in only singles". If they think that's a viable solution they may as well cease flying and shut the base down. Because those are the majority of the people that are leaving for the patch as they can deal with the long shifts, live in camps, and often have enough money put aside to pay their own moving expenses should they be breaking their contract. As a single person in Cold Lake I'll be blunt and say that having extra disposable income does not necessarily make living here any better. For clarification I don't hate the area or the job, and will leave via release the day I feel I've had enough (as opposed to stay and b**ch and complain for years like many others), but there's not exactly an influx of people civilian, military, or otherwise choosing to move to Cold Lake for reasons other than work. If I had wanted to live in a smaller, quiet community of similar size Fort Saskatchewan would be my first choice being right outside Edmonton.

So discrimination based on family status? I would say so. As it is I volunteer happily to cover shifts for guys with kids. Most return the favour and the ones that don't will never get the time of day from me again. At the end of the day though it was their choice to have a family. And if I can suck up Cold Lake for 7 years and counting they can do the same.


----------



## Ostrozac

CDNAIRFORCE said:
			
		

> I assume, and I sure hope I'm not wrong, that you are being sarcastic with regard to "posting in only singles".



It wasn't quite sarcasm -- I was just throwing it out as a potential option to be explored. Your answers certainly explain how it wouldn't be feasible or practical, so I think we can cross that COA off the list.


----------



## blacktriangle

If they built a bunch of modern shacks, had good food at the mess, and paid for R&Q as part of the posting...I'd go! It could be like the Air Force equivalent to a camp job in the Oil patch. I would happily bank spec pay and work on jets. Run a bus route to Edmonton on weekends, and it might actually be enjoyable. 

...but that will never happen.


----------



## Quirky

Guy who is retiring came back from the release section today, says there have been 83 VRs so far this month wing-wide. 

"We'll just recruit more" he says.  :nod:


----------



## George Wallace

Ten days CONFINEMENT.

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

LINK



> Busking soldier gets 10 days of confinement
> 
> 
> Jordan Small, QMI Agency
> First posted:  Friday, January 31, 2014 10:33 PM EST  | Updated:  Friday, January 31, 2014 10:42 PM EST
> 
> COLD LAKE, Alta. — Alberta’s busking soldier was officially sentenced on Jan. 31 for his protest of rising rent costs on 4 Wing Cold Lake.
> 
> Cpl. Darenn Tremblay was assigned 10 days’ confinement to barracks following his summary trial in front of several dozen of his peers.
> 
> After presiding officer Lt-Col Derek Gowanlock read the accusing evidence, Tremblay admitted responsibility.
> 
> The 10-day confinement, which will start immediately, means Tremblay must stay within the 4 Wing base boundaries. He will continue his daily operations at engine bay at 1 Air Maintenance Squadron.
> 
> The 25-year-old was accused of attempting to influence public policy by communicating criticism of the Canadian Armed Forces’ compensation and benefits policy to the prejudice of good order and discipline on Jan. 9, 2014 on a sidewalk in Cold Lake, Alta.
> 
> On the date of the protest, Tremblay played his guitar and placed an upturned combat helmet on the sidewalk alongside a sign reading: “I am in the Canadian Forces posted to Cold Lake with a family. Any spare change will help.”



More on LINK.


----------



## Edward Campbell

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Ten days DETENTION.
> 
> Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.
> 
> LINK
> 
> More on LINK.




It is ten day's CB, which used to equate to extra work and drill, not ten day's detention. There's a big difference for those not familiar with military terminology.


----------



## George Wallace

Fixed....as per article quoted.    :-[


----------



## bison33

CDNAIRFORCE said:
			
		

> I assume, and I sure hope I'm not wrong, that you are being sarcastic with regard to "posting in only singles". If they think that's a viable solution they may as well cease flying and shut the base down. Because those are the majority of the people that are leaving for the patch as they can deal with the long shifts, live in camps, and often have enough money put aside to pay their own moving expenses should they be breaking their contract. As a single person in Cold Lake I'll be blunt and say that having extra disposable income does not necessarily make living here any better. For clarification I don't hate the area or the job, and will leave via release the day I feel I've had enough (as opposed to stay and b**ch and complain for years like many others), but there's not exactly an influx of people civilian, military, or otherwise choosing to move to Cold Lake for reasons other than work. If I had wanted to live in a smaller, quiet community of similar size Fort Saskatchewan would be my first choice being right outside Edmonton.
> 
> So discrimination based on family status? I would say so. As it is I volunteer happily to cover shifts for guys with kids. Most return the favour and the ones that don't will never get the time of day from me again.* At the end of the day though it was their choice to have a family. And if I can suck up Cold Lake for 7 years and counting they can do the same.
> *




The last part of your comment is one of ignorance. I will chalk it up to you being the type who will forever remain single. Saying that, you want to venture a guess why folks get married and have kids? I heard that crap since when I joined some decades ago. If the military wanted you to have a family, they'd issue you one and so on. So sad to see you are carrying on that perochial tradition.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Since when are summary trials held "in front of dozens of his peers"?  Every one I was ever part of, both hatless and hatted participation, was held behind closed doors.  Was this maybe done to send a message?


----------



## Ralph

It's completely up to the Presiding Officer. The great majority of the summary trials at my current unit, along with all the ones on my last tour, were run with maximum attendance expected based on the capacity of the room. Seeing as one of the goals of sentencing is general deterrence, it makes sense.


----------



## SupersonicMax

And that the process should be transparent.  The last one I attended had civilians in attendance.  In fact, media is even allowed at a summary trial.


----------



## PuckChaser

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Since when are summary trials held "in front of dozens of his peers"?  Every one I was ever part of, both hatless and hatted participation, was held behind closed doors.  Was this maybe done to send a message?



My unit sends emails out with timings, everyone not tasked is expected to attend. We even have candid discussions with the CO/RSM afterwards what alternative sentences could have been used, and reasoning behind the verdict. Excellent PD for younger soldiers on the military justice system.


----------



## Quirky

Trunk Monkey said:
			
		

> Saying that, you want to venture a guess why folks get married and have kids?



So they become professional athletes and make million$.


----------



## Shamrock

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Since when are summary trials held "in front of dozens of his peers"?  Every one I was ever part of, both hatless and hatted participation, was held behind closed doors.  Was this maybe done to send a message?



Times have changed. All trials are now open as part of transparency.


----------



## Bzzliteyr

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Since when are summary trials held "in front of dozens of his peers"?  Every one I was ever part of, both hatless and hatted participation, was held behind closed doors.  Was this maybe done to send a message?



http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-reports-pubs-military-law-summary-trial-level/ch-13-conduct-of-summary-trial.page?

Points 34 - 36


----------



## Kat Stevens

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-reports-pubs-military-law-summary-trial-level/ch-13-conduct-of-summary-trial.page?
> 
> Points 34 - 36



Okay, got it, thanks, been corrected 6 times now.  I've just never seen it done for summary trials, and I've been part of a fair few.


----------



## Bzzliteyr

I know.. I just thought I'd pop that link up.  It's a great resource for anyone that may be in trouble.  It helped me know all about procedures for my trial and allowed me to know when things were done incorrectly.

All self taught, as my assisting officer was pretty useless...


----------



## Pusser

As I understand it, public trials actually have their root in the Magna Carta.  The idea being that it is in the accused's best interest to have a public trial so that all can see that it is a fair process and he/she is not railroaded or doesn't just "disappear."


----------



## upandatom

I understand where this kid is coming from, 

The PLD needs to be revamped. I dont mean a year long study, I mean now, there are people in place that can handle this. The process for administrative and financial changes in the CF is ridiculously long. A member living in Cold Lake, should have the same amount of take home in his pocket as a member in Borden, Ottawa, Halifax, Gagetown, Valcartier, Victoria. This "you get posted here, Sucks to be you, your broke now" is ridiculous. There is no way the quality of life between two soldiers/airmen/seaman in two different postings can be as different as it is. The yeah it sucks you got posted there mentality needs to stop. 
IE a Member in Ontario- 5100 a month, 3800 take home, thats decent, however an hour down the road in Quebec, 2900 a month, just because of where he/she was sent? Even with PLD, Which, is a taxable benefit. 


As for the 129 he recieved, I agree he should of been, he spoke out. He brought attention to it. Good for him, There are other ways though.


----------



## armyvern

upandatom said:
			
		

> I understand where this kid is coming from,
> 
> The PLD needs to be revamped. I dont mean a year long study, I mean now, there are people in place that can handle this. The process for administrative and financial changes in the CF is ridiculously long. A member living in Cold Lake, should have the same amount of take home in his pocket as a member in Borden, Ottawa, Halifax, Gagetown, Valcartier, Victoria. This "you get posted here, Sucks to be you, your broke now" is ridiculous. There is no way the quality of life between two soldiers/airmen/seaman in two different postings can be as different as it is. The yeah it sucks you got posted there mentality needs to stop.
> IE a Member in Ontario- 5100 a month, 3800 take home, thats decent, however an hour down the road in Quebec, 2900 a month, just because of where he/she was sent? Even with PLD, Which, is a taxable benefit.
> 
> 
> As for the 129 he recieved, I agree he should of been, he spoke out. He brought attention to it. Good for him, There are other ways though.



I don't think you'll find too many here on this site that do not agree with you on either point, that:

1)  PLD needs to be revisited sooner rather than later; and
2)  That despite drawing attention to the issue (ie: the kid fell on his sword), that a 129 was appropriate given the circumstances.


----------



## Grunt_031

> The PLD needs to be revamped. I dont mean a year long study, I mean now, there are people in place that can handle this. The process for administrative and financial changes in the CF is ridiculously long. A member living in Cold Lake, should have the same amount of take home in his pocket as a member in Borden, Ottawa, Halifax, Gagetown, Valcartier, Victoria. This "you get posted here, Sucks to be you, your broke now" is ridiculous. There is no way the quality of life between two soldiers/airmen/seaman in two different postings can be as different as it is. The yeah it sucks you got posted there mentality needs to stop.
> IE a Member in Ontario- 5100 a month, 3800 take home, thats decent, however an hour down the road in Quebec, 2900 a month, just because of where he/she was sent? Even with PLD, Which, is a taxable benefit.



With this rational, the persons below the Ottawa baseline should be paying back the government because their cost of living is some much more less. Rob Peter to pay Paul.  I know many people posted in Cold Lake that are financially prudent and live within their means and are doing aright to well off.
The ones that I know that aren't, are the ones/spouses who were never good with their money in the first place. 

What would happen if in their magic formula they decided that Cold Lake is the new PLD baseline. Would never happen. My point is if they do a complete review and it still does not meet you expectation of fair or goes in the opposite direction, then what?


----------



## upandatom

Grunt_031 said:
			
		

> With this rational, the persons below the Ottawa baseline should be paying back the government because their cost of living is some much more less. Rob Peter to pay Paul.  I know many people posted in Cold Lake that are financially prudent and live within their means and are doing aright to well off.
> The ones that I know that aren't, are the ones/spouses who were never good with their money in the first place.
> 
> What would happen if in their magic formula they decided that Cold Lake is the new PLD baseline. Would never happen. My point is if they do a complete review and it still does not meet you expectation of fair or goes in the opposite direction, then what?



Then that is fine, and understandable. It is expected that the system will not, and is far from being perfect, or bends to my or many members will. 

Noone said paying back, however, when a review is done, it become effective at that time. I get the Rob Peter to pay Paul thing, It is a catch 22, piss off Ottawa, or keep pissing off Cold Lake. 

There still is no reason that two members, who are financially sound, doing the same job, trade, in two parts of this country, make the same amount have different take home due to taxes, or rent, etc. OR are expected to bite the bullet for that increase in cost of living, or live their lives to a lower standard then a counterpart somewhere else. 

So its this kids fault for going where he was told, doing his job in Cold Lake, where he has to be tighter financially?

as opposed to a kid in Winnipeg, Trenton, doing the same job, has alot more money to burn? 

Thats not right. 

and what about those people "stuck" in postings, (even when people are asking to go to those ones, and they want out) that with what seems to be an impending FRP and Promotion/Posting freeze. 

I watched my parents go through an FRP, Living on a base, it wasnt a pretty sight.


----------



## newwifey

Alberta has a tax advantage.  Cold Lake may have a higher standard of living right now but it hasn't always.  Edmonton's has come down again.  Their PLD hasn't been adjusted.  Least TB could do would be raise the PLD in Cold Lake and probably Wainwright to match Edmonton.

Same kid going to Winnipeg or Trenton would likely have to adjust more, just because of taxes.  (both provincial sales tax and higher provincial income tax)

Federal tax rates for 2014
•15% on the first $43,953 of taxable income, +
•22% on the next $43,954 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income over $43,953 up to $87,907), + 
•26% on the next $48,363 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income over $87,907 up to $136,270), + 
•29% of taxable income over $136,270.

Alberta 10% of taxable income 

Manitoba 10.8% on the first $31,000 of taxable income, +
12.75% on the next $36,000, +
17.4% on the amount over $67,000 

Ontario 5.05% on the first $40,120 of taxable income, +
9.15% on the next $40,122, +
11.16% on the next $433,848, + 
13.16 % on the amount over $514,090 

PLD adjustments should consider where you are moving from-to. There are lots of QOL issues than just the city you get posted to.


----------



## Quirky

newwifey said:
			
		

> PLD adjustments should consider where you are moving from-to.
> 
> Alberta has a tax advantage.



PLD should be there, IMO, so that a Cpls/whomevers paycheck (take home pay) is nearly identical whether you are in Cold Lake or Trenton. Then again everything else should be the same across the board...mess costs, barracks and PMQs. Things like higher housing prices in different areas should not be considered since its your choice to get into the market. Our salary is pretty good where a working couple can buy something at any base in Canada, AFAIK. Single members still can too, just takes a little more saving. 

Alberta does have an advantage in taxes, however I'm glad its there considering its the shittiest province to live in/get posted to. :2c: I'm from BC so maybe I'm a bit spoiled.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Quirky,

Housing price SHOULD be included because if a house is expensive in City X, it is very likely that the renting market will also be expensive by probably a very similar factor...  Heck, even PMQ prices change from place to place.


----------



## kratz

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Quirky,
> 
> Housing price SHOULD be included because if a house is expensive in City X, it is very likely that the renting market will also be expensive by probably a very similar factor...  *Heck, even PMQ prices change from place to place.*



CFHA mandate is to charge RHU (new term for PMQ) rates the same as local economy.
It is no longer cheaper to rent on or off base.

So I agree with SupersonicMax, housing should be a factor for PLD.


----------



## Bzzliteyr

Quirky said:
			
		

> Alberta does have an advantage in taxes, however I'm glad its there considering its the shittiest province to live in/get posted to. :2c: I'm from BC so maybe I'm a bit spoiled.



Haha, you can think that all you want, I'm heading home soon.. +4 degrees here in Calgary today.. Chinooks sure are nice.. and the Northern Lights I saw last night.. sweet! Two weeks ago I used my 311 app on my phone to report potholes on my way to work, they got filled and repaved earlier this week. Oh, and Stampede. Oh, and the mountains/skiing/camping/hiking are 45 minutes from my place.


----------



## armyvern

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> and the Northern Lights I saw last night.. sweet! ...



Was just checking out your pics of them on my newsfeed on crackbook - beautiful!!


[/endtangent]


----------



## Loachman

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Chinooks sure are nice..



When they're serviceable.


----------



## upandatom

Quirky said:
			
		

> Alberta does have an advantage in taxes, however I'm glad its there considering its the shittiest province to live in/get posted to. :2c: I'm from BC so maybe I'm a bit spoiled.



Kidding right----Alberta is far from the shittiest place to get posted to. 

You get one guess where these rates are from.....(and this is just the provincial rate) federal sits on top of this. 

the 16% rate applies to taxable income of $41,495 or less (previously $41,095); 
the 20% rate applies to taxable income of more than $41,495, but not more than $82,985 (previously $82,190); 
the 24% rate applies to taxable income of more than $82,985, but not more than $100,970 (previously $100,000); 
the 25.75% rate applies to taxable income of more than $100,970. 

That doesnt include the extra .20 per litre of gas, the 2.00 more for milk, and the average .75 per lb of chicken, or the other costs as school taxes, water taxes, and get this-Road Repair Taxes.


----------



## CombatMacguyver

upandatom said:
			
		

> Kidding right----Alberta is far from the shittiest place to get posted to.
> 
> You get one guess where these rates are from.....(and this is just the provincial rate) federal sits on top of this.
> 
> the 16% rate applies to taxable income of $41,495 or less (previously $41,095);
> the 20% rate applies to taxable income of more than $41,495, but not more than $82,985 (previously $82,190);
> the 24% rate applies to taxable income of more than $82,985, but not more than $100,970 (previously $100,000);
> the 25.75% rate applies to taxable income of more than $100,970.
> 
> That doesnt include the extra .20 per litre of gas, the 2.00 more for milk, and the average .75 per lb of chicken, or the other costs as school taxes, water taxes, and get this-Road Repair Taxes.



AND your anglophone spouse is totally screwed for education/employment so you're suddenly a single-income-family.  Can we factor THAT into the PLD?  :-X

If given the choice between Alberta and here, I wouldn't think twice.  :2c:


----------



## TCM621

In general, I think as soon as the military let's me choose my postings (not just preference) then they have the moral authority to say that dealing with changes in cost of living is my problem. Until then, any downturn in my quality of life should be mitigated as much as possible. Because telling the CM that you can't afford to go to Cold Lake or that getting a prohibited posting and being forced on R&Q is causing a financial hardship will not stop that posting.


----------



## Franko

Or the CM telling you " you don't want to be posted? Fine. Your COS is now your release date."

It's happened.

Regards


----------



## medicineman

Nerf herder said:
			
		

> Or the CM telling you " you don't want to be posted? Fine. Your COS is now your release date."
> 
> It's happened.
> 
> Regards



Used to tell people if they don't like where they are, what they're doing, etc, the option is always there to leave, since they weren't conscripted...and when people ask why I got out, I just tell them I took my own advice.

MM


----------



## Jungle

CombatMacguyver said:
			
		

> AND your anglophone spouse is totally screwed for education/employment so you're suddenly a single-income-family.  Can we factor THAT into the PLD?



The first time I was posted out of Québec when married, my wife was unilingual franco. Nobody cared about my family situation, or the fact that my wife was unilingual. She was once told something along the lines of "Well, you knew what you were getting into when you married a Soldier". She did not whine, she took English classes, she adapted to her new environment and within 2 years, she was working. I have the utmost respect for her... the whiners, not so much.



			
				Nerf herder said:
			
		

> Or the CM telling you " you don't want to be posted? Fine. Your COS is now your release date."
> 
> It's happened.
> 
> Regards



I've seen this too, it happened to a WO I used to know. Mobility is a characteristic about being in the Military. You don't like it, find something else...


----------



## kratz

Jungle said:
			
		

> The first time I was posted out of Québec when married, my wife was unilingual franco. Nobody cared about my family situation, or the fact that my wife was unilingual.



The CAF is not the public service. This argument should never be a consideration in meeting "the needs of the service", IMO.


----------



## Jungle

kratz said:
			
		

> The CAF is not the public service. This argument should never be a consideration in meeting "the needs of the service", IMO.



Did you read the rest of my post ? That is exactly the point I was making. However it was not the case for 2 Sailors I knew in St-Jean, who were posted out within a year of getting there, because their wives could not "adapt"  :


----------



## blacktriangle

kratz said:
			
		

> The CAF is not the public service. This argument should never be a consideration in meeting "the needs of the service", IMO.



Funny, they seem to try and make it as much like the PS as possible in most areas...then pull out the "military" card whenever it's convenient.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> In general, I think as soon as the military let's me choose my postings (not just preference) then they have the moral authority to say that dealing with changes in cost of living is my problem.



Really.  Moral Authority.

It is a job that you chose to do.

Live with it.


----------



## omghax

There seems to be quite a divide in opinion between all the retired folk and those currently in service.  I think it would be incredibly hard on a uni-lingual family to move to an area where they don't speak the language.  I'm wondering if you would have a different opinion if uni-lingual children were involved?  I'm fine having my wife "deal with it"... but my kids?  Much harder.


----------



## Sub_Guy

It would be hard on a uni-lingual family, this may sound ignorant, but I suspect it is much harder for an English speaking family to live in Quebec, than a French family living in Edmonton.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> It would be hard on a uni-lingual family, this may sound ignorant, but I suspect it is much harder for an English speaking family to live in Quebec, than a French family living in Edmonton.



I doubt that, I can still get lots of service in English in Quebec. In fact when I was learning to speak French I had to ask people to answer me in French so I'd learn.   I somehow doubt if I speak French in Edmonton I'm going to receive any answer.  Not to mention TV choices etc....


----------



## PuckChaser

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I can still get lots of service in English in Quebec.



Until the language gestapo puts an end to it....  :


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Guiding your life based on media stories I take it??


----------



## devil39

The whole mobility argument irritates me.  

If we want our military to be truly mobile, then bring back cheap PMQs with the same price everywhere, and base schools with a common curriculum across Canada.    Then there is NO excuse for not being mobile.  

Until that happens, you will see members not willing to sacrifice the well being of their family and quite literally their children's future (by virtue of education) for the mobility demands of the service.


----------



## PuckChaser

http://www.montrealgazette.com/life/Quebec+putting+tape+between+military+families+English+schools+complaint/9456507/story.html

Not worth the headache, tax ache, and general other ache to give Quebec a shot. As much as I'd feel excellent about it helping my career by offering immersion language training, the stress at home is not something I want as an added challenge. If I'm posted to Quebec, its on IR.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

omghax said:
			
		

> There seems to be quite a divide in opinion between all the retired folk and those currently in service.  I think it would be incredibly hard on a uni-lingual family to move to an area where they don't speak the language.  I'm wondering if you would have a different opinion if uni-lingual children were involved?  I'm fine having my wife "deal with it"... but my kids?  Much harder.



Lots of us were posted to Europe with families and most of us didn't speak the languges, but we all learned. Lots of wives also spent all day living in little villiages conversing and socializing with locals. Lots of those same wives also had jobs.


----------



## trustnoone73

kratz said:
			
		

> The CAF is not the public service. This argument should never be a consideration in meeting "the needs of the service", IMO.



Never is a very long time when every posting has a myriad of individual considerations.  Certainly, the needs of the service is the priority.  Hard ball in this day and age is not likely to fulfill the needs of anyone.  If a member releases as opposed to taking a posting there are now two positions to be filled, as opposed to one.  In some trades and ranks maybe that isn't a problem but I doubt the pool of people is limitless.

The reality is that taking a 40-60% family pay cut coupled with a cost of living increase for two or three or five years is not going to be acceptable to a lot of people.  Since needing permission to be married was taken off the QR&O's (or more likely KR&O's) the CM/Service cannot be surprised that family situations are a factor.

Just because a posting works for one person doesn't mean that it will work for all people.  

Before anyone gets the bright idea to attack me, I took my posting hit for the service.  It was exceedingly expensive even without taking a double income hit.  It worked(ish) when it did but it won't work twice.


----------



## upandatom

recceguy said:
			
		

> Lots of us were posted to Europe with families and most of us didn't speak the languges, but we all learned. Lots of wives also spent all day living in little villiages conversing and socializing with locals. Lots of those same wives also had jobs.



AN OUTCAN, is nothing like a posting to Quebec, in an OUTCAN, you have a family bond with other members on base/unit/embassy, your wife and children get that extended family bond through other families that are in the same cirumstances. 

Couple that with major cutbacks and 0 SLT slots open.


----------



## George Wallace

upandatom said:
			
		

> recceguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lots of us were posted to Europe with families and most of us didn't speak the languges, but we all learned. Lots of wives also spent all day living in little villiages conversing and socializing with locals. Lots of those same wives also had jobs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AN OUTCAN, is nothing like a posting to Quebec, in an OUTCAN, you have a family bond with other members on base/unit/embassy, your wife and children get that extended family bond through other families that are in the same cirumstances.
> 
> Couple that with major cutbacks and 0 SLT slots open.
Click to expand...

 

Really?  Are you telling me that your family has no intentions to explore their new environs and not attempt to learn about another culture and their language?  Are you trying to tell us that your family is in a unique situation where there are no other Anglophones posted to your base?  

I call BS.

Even those of us who had OUTCAN postings have seen people like you in the past; people who are 'intolerant' and 'unwilling' to experience something that is different and foreign to what they were accustomed to.  They did not last long on those postings and were returned to Canada.  Sadly, it is their loss, not the CAF's.


----------



## upandatom

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Really?  Are you telling me that your family has no intentions to explore their new environs and not attempt to learn about another culture and their language?  Are you trying to tell us that your family is in a unique situation where there are no other Anglophones posted to your base?
> 
> I call BS.



Not once did i say that, and yes there are other Anglophones, yes my family and them do get together when the opportunity is available. 

I do know people that have had OUTCANS that did not make it as well, maybe lasting two years max.


----------



## medicineman

George beat me to it - posting to Quebec can be looked at as an OUTCAN in the same way you described, since there are a lot of Anglo's posted to Valcatraz or Bagotville or St Jean.  Strangely enough, they generally adapt...or pull the pin.  In he same vein, an awful lot more Francophones get posted OUTQUE and have to go through the same ordeal.  

People are told when they sign on the dotted line that the needs of the Service outweigh the needs of you - they may be taken into account, but that's MAY with a lot of lines under it.  The CF would rather have someone that is able to move wherever and whenever than someone that digs in every time a new posting comes up, desirable or otherwise.  

MM


----------



## upandatom

No, I know I signed the magical dotted line. 

In my specific case, its more of a unit thing, then a location. 

I am dealing with it, BELIEVE ME. I have broken Google translate on more then one occasion. 

From another point of view, I know people get posted/sent where they dont want too. Yet other members, want those spots, but without looking at the whole picture sometimes, and getting tunnel vision, sometimes wrong not the best option  for postings and decisions are made. 

ie- my spot has 25 people wanting it- most of them are members, high up in their years, looking to retire. Its a good spot for that, unfortunately, I am not looking to retire anytime soon. ( I have been contacted by several asking me what my plans are because they want the spot)

However, on an "OUTQUE" a member can ask for an SLT, part time, and they get thrown at them.  

I know for a fact in Valcartier, they hand out french courses like Candy.


----------



## omghax

Again, I can't help but note the clear difference in opinion between retired and current members.  It should be noted that (as already mentioned) military provided services have been massively cut or completely removed.  Schools, Canex, PMQs: all of these have changed dramatically.

I think all of this arguing about postings may be mute.  I feel that the latest budgetary constraints will mean that postings will be few and far between.  I figure most postings will be done within the same geographic location/base to keep costs down.  Which is good I suppose... if you like where you are.


----------



## Journeyman

Jungle said:
			
		

> The first time I was posted out of Québec when married, my wife was unilingual franco. Nobody cared about my family situation, or the fact that my wife was unilingual. She was once told something along the lines of "Well, you knew what you were getting into when you married a Soldier". She did not whine, she took English classes, she adapted to her new environment and within 2 years, she was working. I have the utmost respect for her... the whiners, not so much.



As do all of us who know _you_ -- can't help but wonder what the poor girl did in a previous life to deserve this.     >


----------



## upandatom

omghax said:
			
		

> Again, I can't help but note the clear difference in opinion between retired and current members.  It should be noted that (as already mentioned) military provided services have been massively cut or completely removed.  Schools, Canex, PMQs: all of these have changed dramatically.
> 
> I think all of this arguing about postings may be mute.  I feel that the latest budgetary constraints will mean that postings will be few and far between.  I figure most postings will be done within the same geographic location/base to keep costs down.  Which is good I suppose... if you like where you are.



Very much so, I remember growing up on bases, Cold Lake, That had a Gym, Canex, Grocery and Retail, Gas Station, and good ole bleachers. I remember the pool being full of kids swimming in the summer afternoons and non stop basketball in the mornings. Alot more support back then. They say the support system is still there, but i oddly enough remember it being alot stronger back then.


----------



## CombatMacguyver

I can't stand the "it happened to me therefore it should happened to you" attitude but fine, I'll always take it with a grain of salt.

My issue isn't simply that Anglophones get posted in Valcatraz, it's more that you repeatedly have situations where two QL3 courses are running concurrently (one French and one English) and two francos get sent to Pet while two anglos get sent to Valcratraz.  Nobody is happy, and the four guys are told "trading" is impossible.  I can tell you first-hand that it IS resulting in guys either releasing or turning down new contracts.

Just for the record, 9erD isn't a "whiner".  I don't have any patience for whining either.  Hi-lighting ridiculousness isn't necessarily whining, it's more confusion as to why the situation persists.

I don't know.  I'm not at all trying to stir the pot but I just don't understand it.


----------



## Jungle

Journeyman said:
			
		

> ... can't help but wonder what the poor girl did in a previous life to deserve this.     >



 ;D I wondered the same for a long time... I've stopped wondering, and now just enjoy the ride !!


----------



## upandatom

CombatMacguyver said:
			
		

> I can't stand the "it happened to me therefore it should happened to you" attitude but fine, I'll always take it with a grain of salt.
> 
> My issue isn't simply that Anglophones get posted in Valcatraz, it's more that you repeatedly have situations where two QL3 courses are running concurrently (one French and one English) and two francos get sent to Pet while two anglos get sent to Valcratraz.  Nobody is happy, and the four guys are told "trading" is impossible.  I can tell you first-hand that it IS resulting in guys either releasing or turning down new contracts.
> 
> Just for the record, 9erD isn't a "whiner".  I don't have any patience for whining either.  Hi-lighting ridiculousness isn't necessarily whining, it's more confusion as to why the situation persists.
> 
> I don't know.  I'm not at all trying to stir the pot but I just don't understand it.



Agreed, 
And with the increased cost of living, having two kids and keeping them active is starting to cost more and more. Where as in the 80s/90s it was not uncommon for 9erD to stay home with the children, and still live a happy, fairly financially safe lifestyle due to PMQs, doing what they were supposed to, which is to keep cost of living down. 

"Enjoy the suck " and "suck it up buttercup" are not ways to treat your troops, Its called toxic leadership. It is a huge problem right now due to the "it happened to me attitude." I agree that certain stressful Situations need to imposed upon troops to train and develop them, however, a stressful day to day life at home is not. The happier your boys and girls are at home, the better they will work for you. 

Its funny, I grew up in Cold Lake, in Martineau, I jumped that burm at the bottom of Martineau hill many a time onto the creek while on my GT in the winter time, and more then several times I broke through the ice. I dont ever really recall my family having financial problems due to the accomodations while in Medley. Its funny how 15 years can change an area.


----------



## Halifax Tar

CombatMacguyver said:
			
		

> "it happened to me therefore it should happened to you"



Its a cop out for laziness and an unwillingness to try to change/improve a situation. 

When I hear it from retired members I just roll my eyes and equate it to grandpa walking up hill both ways to school...  No sense in arguing with them because the feel so strong in their convictions they actually cant listen to other options or ideas without being offended and that just gets messy.


----------



## Strike

upandatom said:
			
		

> ... I remember the pool being full of kids swimming in the summer afternoons and non stop basketball in the mornings. Alot more support back then. They say the support system is still there, but i oddly enough remember it being alot stronger back then.



Part of THAT change is due to the change of the world as a whole, with the influx of technology and video games and the 24 hr news cycle, making parents worry there is a pervert around every corner and not letting there kids out to play "until the street lights come on" (which, in the summer in Cold Lake, can be pretty late  ;D ) so you can't even use the above as any type of reasoning for a remote posting being a burden.

As for the support system being weak, it can only be as strong as people are willing to make it.  Someone has to get out there and do the work, organize the groups, come up with events - volunteer.  Maybe everyone just got so concerned about their own lives that they just stopped being social?

So, again, as much as people might want to use the lack of sp systems and 'military family activities' as reasons why remote postings aren't the greatest, they've only become that way because society has changed and no one wants to take charge.


----------



## goingcrazy

As someone currently stuck in Cold Lake it's very discouraging reading this thread. I want to know when it became so normal and accepted for families, especially military families, to have to rely on a duel income household to meet basic needs. I believe there is a problem when my husbands pay, here in Cold Lake,  is literally not enough to pay for our Q, food, insurance and utility bills. When did this become okay? I'm not talking about extras like a second vehicle or extracurricular activities for the kids I'm talking about basic needs, not wants. Why, with the countless reports that have come out and high release rate, are we all seen as whiny with poor money skills? Is it really so hard to believe that there is a problem here?


----------



## Halifax Tar

goingcrazy said:
			
		

> As someone currently stuck in Cold Lake it's very discouraging reading this thread. I want to know when it became so normal and accepted for families, especially military families, to have to rely on a duel income household to meet basic needs. I believe there is a problem when my husbands pay, here in Cold Lake,  is literally not enough to pay for our Q, food, insurance and utility bills. When did this become okay? I'm not talking about extras like a second vehicle or extracurricular activities for the kids I'm talking about basic needs, not wants. Why, with the countless reports that have come out and high release rate, are we all seen as whiny with poor money skills? Is it really so hard to believe that there is a problem here?



Because goincrazy some people are so institutionalized by the CAF the don't believe it can do any wrong and every one of its current policies is correct and change of any sort of is to be feared and resisted.  Its sad but its true.


----------



## observor 69

Back in the 80's trying to get service in English at Place du Royaume in Chicoutimi. Not gonna  happen so it's my butchered French and a clerk with enough patience to try to understand me. Just saying.  :nod:


----------



## TCM621

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Really.  Moral Authority.
> 
> It is a job that you chose to do.
> 
> Live with it.



And I have been for 18 years. That doesn't mean it's right. The problem is that the only guys who will make a career are guys like me who, for all its faults, still consider this my dream job. Or you will get the guys who have no where to go.

Or they will drive the very people who are the most dedicated into financial ruin.


----------



## Jungle

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> When I hear it from retired members I just roll my eyes and equate it to grandpa walking up hill both ways to school...



Which retired members ? I'm still serving; I went through this situation, and my family survived. Actually, it prepared us for tougher times.
I've been posted a dozen times, and I'm about to get posted again. Some places I enjoyed, some I didn't... it's part of the deal.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

omghax said:
			
		

> Again, I can't help but note the clear difference in opinion between retired and current members.  It should be noted that (as already mentioned) military provided services have been massively cut or completely removed.  Schools, Canex, PMQs: all of these have changed dramatically.



Please. I've been retired since July. Things haven't changed that much. :


----------



## kratz

I retired three weeks ago. So now my 20+ years experience is invalid?  :


----------



## Halifax Tar

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Its a cop out for laziness and an unwillingness to try to change/improve a situation.



Perhaps this part of my post was missed, you could/can apply this to serving some members at your leisure.  Feel free to tack it on to yourself if you see fit.


----------



## blacktriangle

How about we just fix the PLD problem? or ensure that we have an adequate number of Q's in every location, and then standardize the prices across the nation?

and why not bring in some unit level financial management lessons? There are definitely troops that could benefit from them...and the ones I'm thinking of aren't posted to Cold Lake.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Spectrum said:
			
		

> How about we just fix the PLD problem? or ensure that we have an adequate number of Q's in every location, and then standardize the prices across the nation?
> 
> and why not bring in some unit level financial management lessons? There are definitely troops that could benefit from them...and the ones I'm thinking of aren't posted to Cold Lake.



All great ideas!  PLD desperately needs to be looked at.


----------



## upandatom

goingcrazy said:
			
		

> As someone currently stuck in Cold Lake it's very discouraging reading this thread. I want to know when it became so normal and accepted for families, especially military families, to have to rely on a duel income household to meet basic needs. I believe there is a problem when my husbands pay, here in Cold Lake,  is literally not enough to pay for our Q, food, insurance and utility bills. When did this become okay? I'm not talking about extras like a second vehicle or extracurricular activities for the kids I'm talking about basic needs, not wants. Why, with the countless reports that have come out and high release rate, are we all seen as whiny with poor money skills? Is it really so hard to believe that there is a problem here?



It is hard for all the people on IR in Ottawa, and all the staff officers that make a bank, don't see it as much of a difference. For those young privates, and new cpls, making from 40-50k, spending 12-15k a year on housing alone, not including the utilities, heat, etc. adds up, include kids, car payment, insurance, taxes. 

Unit level financial lessons are available through sisip, as biased as they can be, they do know what the requirements are. I'd say what I want to say on this matter, but it would probably get banned.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

kratz said:
			
		

> I retired three weeks ago. So now my 20+ years experience is invalid?  :



Was that to me? Because if it is, I'm agreeing with you. We're making the same point I think.


----------



## Old Sweat

Maybe it would take a flashback to the Calgary garrison in 1979. The junior commissioned and noncommissioned personnel were really suffering while Alberta boomed. The Brigade Commander, Brigadier, General Pat Mitchell, and the Base Commander, Colonel Dean Wellsman, advised those that qualified to apply for welfare. The media got ahold of it, and NDHQ et al looked very bsd. The CDS at the time said something like Canadian Forces policy will not be dictated by Army officers in Calgary. At this point Senator Stan Waters, ex FSSF and 1 Can Para among other things, got tp PM Joe Clark, who declared that these officers were acting properly in standing up for their troops.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Maybe it would take a flashback to the Calgary garrison in 1979. The junior commissioned and noncommissioned personnel were really suffering while Alberta boomed. The brigade commoner, Brigadier, General Pat Mitchell, and the Base Commander, Colonel Dean Wellsman, advised those that qualified to apply for welfare. The media got ahold of it, and NDHQ et al looked very bsd. The CDS at the time said something like Canadian Forces policy will not be dictated by Army officers in Calgary. At this point Senator Stan Waters, ex FSSF and 1 Can Para among other things, got tp PM Joe Clark, who declared that these officers were acting properly in standing up for their troops.



As much as love this anecdote, we have no senior officers with that kind of balls anymore.  It would be political suicide.


----------



## goingcrazy

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> As much as love this anecdote, we have no senior officers with that kind of balls anymore.  It would be political suicide.



We need them. 
Call me naive or whatever but when my husband joined I thought the military would be much different, more of a family. Instead its more of "well, I went thru a hard time a one point so suck it up buttercup"
I was raised that you speak up for the people that don't have a voice. We're not air force I know we will probably leave, hopefully, sooner rather then later but there are people here that have been here 10-15 years with no hope of getting out. The system is flawed not just here in Cold Lake but across Canada. Its sickening that people are being forced to go into debt for a posting. We need people to speak up.


----------



## PMedMoe

goingcrazy said:
			
		

> I want to know when it became so normal and accepted for families, especially military families, to have to rely on a duel income household to meet basic needs.



I don't know about you, but both of my parents always worked.  And my Dad was in the military.



			
				goingcrazy said:
			
		

> I believe there is a problem when my husbands pay, here in Cold Lake,  is literally not enough to pay for our Q, food, insurance and utility bills.



It's not just Cold Lake and not even just the CF.  There are families all over (both CF and civilian) who cannot afford the necessities on a single salary.


----------



## upandatom

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Maybe it would take a flashback to the Calgary garrison in 1979. The junior commissioned and noncommissioned personnel were really suffering while Alberta boomed. The Brigade Commander, Brigadier, General Pat Mitchell, and the Base Commander, Colonel Dean Wellsman, advised those that qualified to apply for welfare. The media got ahold of it, and NDHQ et al looked very bsd. The CDS at the time said something like Canadian Forces policy will not be dictated by Army officers in Calgary. At this point Senator Stan Waters, ex FSSF and 1 Can Para among other things, got tp PM Joe Clark, who declared that these officers were acting properly in standing up for their troops.



I would like to meet an officer nowadays that would do that for his troops. Im not saying there are not good officers out there, but the fact that these ones here, a group stood together and took the exact same stance, that is the difference. 

To have a political backing did help a tonne-

Do you think this kids MP got in contact with him after this? :

 Its kind of a sad state, for the last decade we have really been kicking ass, Troops were happier. I was all against the cutbacks we recieved. All part of a political Agenda. Sure we should of recieved some cutbacks due to pulling out. The way we were hit though, it affects all aspects of CF life. If it keeps coming like this, fairly certain we will need a Loan Card for pens.

PLD wont be looked at (should be, but I doubt it will), because it would cost money, We have already lost several CISM sports and we had that before Afghanistan.


----------



## Journeyman

upandatom said:
			
		

> Its kind of a sad state, for the last decade we have really been kicking ass, Troops were happier. I was all against the cutbacks we recieved. All part of a political Agenda. Sure we should of recieved some cutbacks due to pulling out. The way we were hit though, it affects all aspects of CF life. If it keeps coming like this, fairly certain we will need a Loan Card for pens.
> 
> PLD wont be looked at (should be, but I doubt it will), because it would cost money, We have already lost several CISM sports and we had that before Afghanistan.


I barely know where to start......   :   ....but I'll limit myself to two points:

1.   "...a political Agenda"...especially with the upper-case 'Agenda,' sounds _so_ conspiratorial.   :Tin-Foil-Hat:   anic:

Yes, _the agenda_ is a post-war scaling back of military spending.  It happens in pretty much _every_ country after _every_ war -- including the post-Cold War 'decade of darkness.'  Democratic governments are responsible to the people -- people who generally don't want higher taxes and can't be convinced to buy "War Bonds" to pay for combat equipment when they perceive no justifiable threat, and see greater utility in paying down debt or adjusting spending towards social benefits and infrastructure.  I'm *not* weighing in here on where Defence monies should be spent, just that cuts are inevitable.

2.   And as for my old hobby-horse of "opinions versus _informed_ opinions," where people in various threads here are pointing out the difficulties of sustaining essential family requirements and maintaining critical combat capabilities -- hell, getting boots and mukluks -- you're going to whine about losing a CISM sport?!  

Big-picture thinking at its finest.    :facepalm: 




There's always as silver-lining -- _always_.  Reducing CISM sports frees up more time for people to read, understand, and hopefully _inform_ their thinking.  :nod:


----------



## upandatom

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I barely know where to start......   :   ....but I'll limit myself to two points:
> 
> 1.   "...a political Agenda"...especially with the upper-case 'Agenda,' sounds _so_ conspiratorial.   :Tin-Foil-Hat:   anic:
> 
> Yes, _the agenda_ is a post-war scaling back of military spending.  It happens in pretty much _every_ country after _every_ war -- including the post-Cold War 'decade of darkness.'  Democratic governments are responsible to the people -- people who generally don't want higher taxes and can't be convinced to buy "War Bonds" to pay for combat equipment when they perceive no justifiable threat, and see greater utility in paying down debt or adjusting spending towards social benefits and infrastructure.  I'm *not* weighing in here on where Defence monies should be spent, just that cuts are inevitable.
> 
> 2.   And as for my old hobby-horse of "opinions versus _informed_ opinions," where people in various threads here are pointing out the difficulties of sustaining essential family requirements and maintaining critical combat capabilities -- hell, getting boots and mukluks -- you're going to whine about losing a CISM sport?!
> 
> Big-picture thinking at its finest.    :facepalm:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's always as silver-lining -- _always_.  Reducing CISM sports frees up more time for people to read, understand, and hopefully _inform_ their thinking.  :nod:



I did not mean in the event to cut back on kit we need, It was more of a we have this here, we dont anymore- Using CISM as an example for one of the many things we have seen pulled away, which is understandable with the cutbacks. (stating the fact we had money for it before, not now, not whining about it) 

Do you really wanna start the boot argument here? We have wasted millions on boots, if not more, yet here we are, getting ordered to return boots because they are either falling apart or just pieces of garbage. Stuff like this is the money we need to cut back on, the rampant needless spending on new shiny boots, without having a proper trial run of them. 

"a political Agenda"-Sorry, that was a typo, not meant to seem conspiracy theory on you.


----------



## eliminator

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/news/article.page?doc=chief-of-the-defence-staff-visits-4-wing-cold-lake/hsbjlxra

Any announcements made?


----------



## smale436

I was unable to attend but the majority of people I know who did attend basically summed it up as being a regurgitation of previous "we know there are issues and are trying to solve them" speeches. In fact, a lot of people who arrived at work after the meeting were actually quite pissed off and described it as a waste of time. I highly doubt there were any announcements of substance about CFHA or PLD as someone would have mentioned it.

Again, I could be wrong but that was the general opinion of the 8 or so people I talked to.


----------



## OldSolduer

CDNAIRFORCE said:
			
		

> I was unable to attend but the majority of people I know who did attend basically summed it up as being a regurgitation of previous "we know there are issues and are trying to solve them" speeches. In fact, a lot of people who arrived at work after the meeting were actually quite pissed off and described it as a waste of time. I highly doubt there were any announcements of substance about CFHA or PLD as someone would have mentioned it.
> 
> Again, I could be wrong but that was the general opinion of the 8 or so people I talked to.



The CDS will not speak in specifics.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Then who will really tackle this problem?  It's all nice talk and all, but in the mean time, people that need support don't have it...


----------



## George Wallace

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Then who will really tackle this problem?  It's all nice talk and all, but in the mean time, people that need support don't have it...



Not to be offensive, but you still have to get some more TI and start to see how slow the wheels of bureaucracy really work.   This is not McDonalds where you walk in and get your burger and walk out with instant gratification.


----------



## Old Sweat

Hmmm, wonder how General Rick or General Walt would have addressed the issue.  >

Sometimes the right words in the right tone at least make people feel they have not been abandoned.


----------



## Halifax Tar

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Not to be offensive, but you still have to get some more TI and start to see how slow the wheels of bureaucracy really work.   This is not McDonalds where you walk in and get your burger and walk out with instant gratification.



 :  



			
				SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Then who will really tackle this problem?  It's all nice talk and all, but in the mean time, people that need support don't have it...



I would imagine just another "town hall".  Pointed questions are asked and answered vaguely with allot of fluff and catch phrases with out actually giving any answers.  Seems to be the way our upper echelon do things.


----------



## OldSolduer

The CDS will most likely task CMP to sort this out. CMP will look to DG Family Support Services (I forget the silly long acronym he has) who will task an overworked LCol who will pass it off to an overworked Major who will hire a class B captain to look at it and come up with COAs.
The captain will have to hire a Cpl to do admin work, and ask the Cpl what the best solution is.

There you have it.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> The CDS will most likely task CMP to sort this out. CMP will look to DG Family Support Services (I forget the silly long acronym he has) who will task an overworked LCol who will pass it off to an overworked Major who will hire a class B captain to look at it and come up with COAs.
> The captain will have to hire a Cpl to do admin work, and ask the Cpl what the best solution is.
> 
> There you have it.




I wish it were that simple ...

This is an _entitlement_ that forms part of a very complex pay and benefits equation.

While the base salaries for CF members are 'set' based on _benchmark_ salaries paid to public servants ~ most negotiated by PS unions ~ benefits and entitlements are, in many cases, unique to the CF, in recognition of the exigences of the service. BUT: there is an budget 'envelope' within which the entire package, salary and benefits, must fit ~ an envelope set by the Treasury Board. Think of it as a balloon: you can squeeze the balloon and expand one part, but only at the expense of another part.

Some people will, no doubt, say that _post differentials_ and the like are an unnecessary complication. "There are good postings and bad postings," they will say, "and, over a career, they balance out for most people. Let's do away with post differentials and give everyone a pay raise: the greatest good for the greatest number sort of principle." Others will say, "No, the short term pain is too great. Let's forgo a pay raise next year and upgrade post differentials."

My _guess_ is that the Treasury Board Secretariat is already seized with the issue and that negotiations, of sorts, are underway. TB might even have made an offer: more _this_ for less _that_ ... and no matter what is finally agreed on the CF members' behalf there will be less of something, unless the unsatisfactory _status quo_ is maintained.

There may be a Class B captain and an overworked colonel somewhere in the equation but, mainly, it will be civilians, most not in DND, who will decide how this ends.


----------



## dapaterson

Precisely.

Per the National Defence Act,



> Treasury Board’s power to make regulations
> 
> 12 (3) The Treasury Board may make regulations
> 
> (c) providing for any matter concerning the pay, allowances and reimbursement of expenses of officers and non-commissioned members for which the Treasury Board considers regulations are necessary or desirable to carry out the purposes or provisions of this Act.


----------



## PetitorVeritas

Hi everyone, this is my first post so I apologize if this topic is covered somewhere else, but the search function did not work for me when I attempted to find a similar topic (something about too much activity on the server). I am starting this thread in hopes of getting some information as I've heard it is quite likely for new AVN techs to be posted to cold lake upon completion of training at Borden.My question is a simple one but is a deciding factor in whether or not I will be submitting my application in June. What I need to know is, given the coverage in the news lately and a rather damming report by the Ombudsman last year, can I survive a long posting in Cold Lake financially speaking? And not just survive, but even have a small nest egg at the end of it?

I realize there are many factors that need to be considered in answering that question, so let me give a little background. I am a 30 year old with a wife and two children with a third on the way in August. I want nothing more than to be an AVN tech in the air force. My wife is behind me 100% and we have been researching it for the last few months to make sure that it is a financially viable option for us. Please understand that this decision is not about the money alone, I truly do want to serve my country, but my first priority is to my wife and children and if I can't support them financially than I have to give up the dream of the air force no matter how much disappointment it may bring me.

Now, I've researched the cost of off base housing and the RHUs, and it's obvious that the RHUs are more financially viable for a family my size (I've lived in pretty poor conditions before, so the condition of the housing won't scare me off). Seeing as how the rent is limited to 25% and given the relatively high wage of a junior NCM (even at level 3 Private pay), I don't see why a comfortable life would be so hard to maintain. But then I read some of the horror stories here and look at the news coverage and think that if do get posted to 4 Wing after Borden, as I hear many new AVN techs are, I may not be able to provide for my family, let alone eventually have enough to buy a house of our own.

My wife and I are pretty frugal and have survived in Ottawa for the last three years on student loans while I was in college, so I know how to budget, but the idea of living that frugally for potentially up to 15 years (as some have said a posting in Cold Lake can last that long) is a terrible thought. I want to be able to provide the things I never got as a child in a low income family, not put my kids through the same crap.

So, are there any junior rank NCMs out there who are also raising three kids in Cold Lake on single income, or who know anybody who is? How are you/they faring? Can someone break down the budgetary concerns and extra costs that make it impossible to survive in what is, in all other aspects, a well-paying job? I want to do this as a career but I will not burden my family with near-poverty, nor do I want to burden the taxpayers with another dissatisfied airman.


----------



## PetitorVeritas

I feel rather stupid having just read that you lose access to this forum upon reaching 250 posts, so any user of these boards who has the experience and knowledge to answer my question likely does not have the ability to read it. 

Yet when I tried to post my question in another forum it told me that I was not allowed to. Are there any forums where new members can get the opinion of more experienced people?


----------



## KerryBlue

The best place for this question is probably in the Home Front forum, as all members have access to that forum. Most here are new applicants. 

The Home front forum

http://army.ca/forums/index.php?board=49.0


----------



## PetitorVeritas

Thanks, I was under the mistaken impression that this was the only forum new members were allowed to post in.


----------



## Griffon

PetitorVeritas said:
			
		

> Hi everyone, this is my first post so I apologize if this topic is covered somewhere else, but the search function did not work for me when I attempted to find a similar topic (something about too much activity on the server). I am starting this thread in hopes of getting some information as I've heard it is quite likely for new AVN techs to be posted to cold lake upon completion of training at Borden.My question is a simple one but is a deciding factor in whether or not I will be submitting my application in June. What I need to know is, given the coverage in the news lately and a rather damming report by the Ombudsman last year, can I survive a long posting in Cold Lake financially speaking? And not just survive, but even have a small nest egg at the end of it?
> 
> I realize there are many factors that need to be considered in answering that question, so let me give a little background. I am a 30 year old with a wife and two children with a third on the way in August. I want nothing more than to be an AVN tech in the air force. My wife is behind me 100% and we have been researching it for the last few months to make sure that it is a financially viable option for us. Please understand that this decision is not about the money alone, I truly do want to serve my country, but my first priority is to my wife and children and if I can't support them financially than I have to give up the dream of the air force no matter how much disappointment it may bring me.
> 
> Now, I've researched the cost of off base housing and the RHUs, and it's obvious that the RHUs are more financially viable for a family my size (I've lived in pretty poor conditions before, so the condition of the housing won't scare me off). Seeing as how the rent is limited to 25% and given the relatively high wage of a junior NCM (even at level 3 Private pay), I don't see why a comfortable life would be so hard to maintain. But then I read some of the horror stories here and look at the news coverage and think that if do get posted to 4 Wing after Borden, as I hear many new AVN techs are, I may not be able to provide for my family, let alone eventually have enough to buy a house of our own.
> 
> My wife and I are pretty frugal and have survived in Ottawa for the last three years on student loans while I was in college, so I know how to budget, but the idea of living that frugally for potentially up to 15 years (as some have said a posting in Cold Lake can last that long) is a terrible thought. I want to be able to provide the things I never got as a child in a low income family, not put my kids through the same crap.
> 
> So, are there any junior rank NCMs out there who are also raising three kids in Cold Lake on single income, or who know anybody who is? How are you/they faring? Can someone break down the budgetary concerns and extra costs that make it impossible to survive in what is, in all other aspects, a well-paying job? I want to do this as a career but I will not burden my family with near-poverty, nor do I want to burden the taxpayers with another dissatisfied airman.



Lucky for you, I read more than I post.

I lived in Cold Lake for 10 years, so I know a bit about what you're getting yourself into.  I knew a few single income families there that made it work, so I know it's possible.  Keep in mind that, currently, members posted to Cold Lake receive a Post Living Differential of $319 per month in addition to their pay, which works out to $100+ per pay check, and they also enjoy the lowest tax rates in the country.  Income taxes are low, and Albertans only pay GST on their purchases.

I personally believe that many Cold Lake members fall into a trap of seeing all the new trucks, flashy cars, skidoos, boats, RVs, and ATVs around town, leading them to make purchases of the like on their own when they really can't afford to.  I'm sure this isn't always the case, but I'm sure it contributes.  I moved to NB a couple years ago and the cost of living here is just as high, if not a little higher than it was when we lived out there.

Housing is expensive, yes.  The RHUs aren't in the best condition.  But it's doable.  If the base was in an economically depressed area then you wouldn't be hearing the same issues.

All this to say that if you are careful with your money, you can make a living in Cold Lake just as you can anywhere else in the country.  You won't have much left over, but you can make it.  And if your wife ever decides that she does want to work, businesses in Cold Lake seem to always be looking for some good help.


----------



## PetitorVeritas

Thank you, Griffon, for your post. I tend to agree with you in regards to the high cost of living everywhere. We currently live in Ottawa, which is consistently ranked in the top five most expensive cities in Canada, and we make it through fine on my measly single income of $35,000 (gross pay, not net). I've just spent the last two nights reading stories on here and other sites about CF members working second jobs just to make ends meet and still falling behind, people who swear up and down that you can't survive on $50-60k a year and people who have claimed bankruptcy (and many of these people are raising only one child, not three). Couple that with supposedly miserable living conditions and the highest attrition rates in the country, and it got me second guessing myself about my career choices. Obviously, there must be something to all the stories, but as long as I can speak to a few people who have successfully raised families there, then I know we can make it through.

I don't need new vehicles or fancy toys, just a relatively stable and healthy environment to raise my kids. As long as we have a roof over our heads and food on our table, we can make it as a family. 

Now, obviously I know that I still have to make it through an arduous application process and even then there's no guarantee that I'll make it in and get posted to Cold Lake, but I could not with good conscience knowingly doom my family to abject poverty, no matter how remote the chance.

It is good to hear that there are work opportunities for my spouse. With a pregnancy in 2012 and emergency C-section followed by hernia surgery followed by another pregnancy, she's been out of work awhile.


----------



## Quirky

The reality is, you will find it very difficult to live on a privates salary with a large family in Cold Lake. I know plenty of single Privates with no financial debts and they still struggle month to month. Unless your spouse will eventually find a job, I don't think the quality of life you'll have is worth it. Then again a posting to Cold Lake is not automatic.


----------



## goingcrazy

As someone currently in Cold Lake I can say that my husbands cpl pay just barely covers our day to day living expenses for our family of five with no room for extras or emergencies. While I agree that there do seem to be families here that complain about the cost of living while enjoying many toys there are just as many that are actually struggling. Spec pay is also factor as there are many that don't recieve it that are just managing while those that have it are taking second jobs. The cost of living is high here. The hardships are there. I just think the main problem is its those with poor financial planning abilities that are screaming the loudest for more in turn  discrediting the rest of us. As much as I hate to admit it, it can be done but I wouldn't recommend it. That said, we love the lifestyle and know our time in Cold Lake is limited.


----------



## PetitorVeritas

Thanks everyone for your feedback. It is great (and sobering) to hear from those with first hand experience living in areas with higher costs of living. I know that a Cold Lake posting isn't guaranteed, but it is a worst case scenario that I have to take into consideration before jumping headfirst into what I want to be a lifetime commitment. 

goingcrazy, I'm sorry to hear that you and your family are struggling but it is nice to see that you are staying positive and that the experience hasn't completely tainted your view of life in the Forces. 

My wife and I obviously have some serious thinking to do. That said, I know my family is strong and that, if others are able to make the best of a bad situation, so can we.


----------



## thegreenpadre

Hey all,

I'm a new padre being posted to Cold Lake. Have read a lot about the housing situation there. We're familiar with the Northern Alberta Real Estate boom having ministered in a church in the Grande Prairie area for the last 8 years. We're a family of 4, 2 girls aged 5 and 5 months, looking for a home in the 350-400k range but also wondering about the 3-4 bedroom PMQ's. I'm wondering if anyone has recommendations on real estate in the 4 Wing area. Could you recommend a good agent? How about a neighbourhood? Schools?


----------



## Towards_the_gap

$755,900 and she's all yours.

Executive bungalow on waterfront (tailings pond)


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Cold Lake is not particularly close to Fort Mac and there isn't any oil sands mining in Cold Lake, so there are no tailings ponds.


----------



## Rifleman62

http://epaper.nationalpost.com/epaper/viewer.aspx

*Oil boom beckons in Cold Lake *

Yadullah Hussain Financial Post yhussain@nationalpost  25 Jul 14

Osum Oil Sands Corp. chief executive Steve Spence says he used to call Cold Lake the “unknown story in the oil sands”.
Cpl. Kath ryn Poudrier / Aerospace Enginering Test Establishment The Alberta city of Cold Lake, an air base south of Fort McMurray, is poised to become an energy hub, as well.

Not any more. While the city of Fort McMurray farther north has garnered all the attention for its rapid growth, Cold Lake city has been an oil boomtown in its own right with production in its vicinity ramping up to half a million barrels per day.

“It is actually the most understood region [in terms of geology],” Mr. Spence said, although the Athabasca basin in Fort McMurray produces the bulk of Canada’s oil output.

Osum made a big move in Cold Lake in June, picking up Royal Dutch Shell PLC’s assets in the region for $325-million. The Orion project produces about 6,700 barrels per day and is located close to the company’s Taiga facility, which is yet to start production. Mr. Spence expects the Orion transaction to close by the end of the month.

Mayor Craig Copeland says his city is ripe for a new boom.

“In the past few years, we have really seen a ramp up in development in our city. We have had several small booms before, but all of a sudden a lot of people have been coming to work on construction sites,” Mr. Copeland said in an interview. “This past winter — the winter that was so cold — we had approximately a good 3,000 people embedded in the community in rentals; houses and hotels were full.”

The city’s population has grown 9% in the past two years to reach just under 16,000, according to the latest census published in July. The mayor says non-residents would probably take the population closer to 18,000.

Without the oil sands, the city would primarily be home to about 5,000 military personnel and their families working at the 4 Wing Cold Lake airbase, Mr. Copeland says.

But it’s the oil that’s spinning the economic wheels. The region and its adjoining areas produce about 500,000 barrels per day and that number could rise by another 150,000 by 2017, according to Oil Sands Community Alliance data.

Cold Lake is also home to Canadian Natural Resources Ltd.’s Primrose operation, which has had trouble managing an oil leak since last year. In a ruling this month, the Alberta Energy Regulator said it’s “not prepared to approve a return to full operations at these sites until all potential risks are addressed.”

Other well-established players in the region are gearing up for a new round of expansion in the region. Imperial Oil Ltd., a long-time resident, expects to start producing 40,000 barrels per day from its Nabiya project by the end of the year. Cenovus Energy Inc. is set to expand its Foster Creek project near Bonnyville and Cold Lake by 90,000 barrels per day by the end of 2016. The company spent $370-million with businesses based in the community on goods and services last year.

Osum also plans to raise output from Orion to 10,000 barrels per day and kick-off Taiga with 12,000 barrels per day in the first phase, taking capacity to 45,000 barrels per day.

The rush of new production will test the limits of the city’s infrastructure, and Mr. Copeland can see it coming.

“Every 100 barrels produced creates one to two permanent jobs,” Mr Copeland said.

With population growing, housing challenges are not far behind. Residential prices shot up 14.5% last year and have risen another 5.6% year-to-date, according to Royal Le Page Northern Lights Realty. Home prices have climbed more than 150% in a decade.

The city has offered a $7,500 rebate per door for builders in a bid to stimulate construction activity, and developers have responded with as many as 300 new housing units expected to come on-stream within three years. As many as 500 new hotels rooms are also on the books, the mayor says.

The city council is also in talks with nearby Bonnyville to annex about 1,220 hectares of land to “accommodate growth for the next 50 years.”

Housing and land are not the only challenges.

“There is pretty much room for any type of service,” said Sherri Bohme, executive director at Cold Lake Regional Chamber of Commerce. “We are somewhat underserviced in almost every business category. So the potential for start-up is great, but the availability of commercial land can be a challenge.”

Labour shortages are also chronic in the city, raising fears of an escalation in prices.

“It’s really hard in Cold Lake to attract healthcare professionals, teachers and people that work in the services industries and restaurants when rents are so high,” Mr. Copeland said. “A lot of people who don’t make oil sand wages were forced to leave the community because they could not afford to live here.”

Some government agencies such as the Lakeland Catholic School Board have purchased property and intend to rent out bedrooms to teachers at cheaper rates.

*A report last year by the Department of National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman highlighted the ugly side of the boom. Many Royal Canadian Force members in the city have been forced to take up a second job in the city to make ends meet.*

*“A number of families said they could no longer afford telephone, cable or Internet services,” the report said. Others sold belongings, dipped into their Registered Retirement Savings Plan funds and even claimed bankruptcy in order to meet their financial obligations.*

While the business community grapples with the growing pains of the economy, it’s also mindful that the excesses of the boom could very easily be reversed, as the Canadian government makes changes to its temporary foreign workers program.

“The temporary foreign workers changes could potentially debilitate any potential growth of existing business and business coming in,” the chamber’s Ms. Bohme said.

The rules could have “devastating consequences” for the community, Mr. Copeland added. “Probably, within a year or two, this community is really going to feel an impact of a lot of fast food chains, restaurants that are fully staffed by foreign workers. The rules are going to cause devastating results. I don’t know how the hotels are going to cope,” he said.

The TFW program has come under fire as it’s seen as taking jobs away from Canadians, but Mr. Copeland does not see the logic especially in Alberta where there is a labour shortage.

“Nobody from Ontario and [the] East Coast is coming to Cold Lake to work in the fast food industry.”

But Ontarians and people from the East Coast are coming to the city for oil jobs.

“The baseball caps tell you their affiliation. You would be surprised at the number of people from southern Ontario that are based here,” said Mr. Copeland, who is originally from Mississauga, Ont.

Mr. Spence says unlike Fort McMurray where the majority of people are cooped up in campsites, Cold Lake offers an advantage when attracting talent. “They can drive home every night — there is a real selling feature to it.”

The city has an infrastructure deficit of $250-million, and although the oil sands companies are chipping in with contributions for the community, including the new Cold Lake Energy Centre, a multi-use recreation facility that can hold 1,800 people, Mr. Copeland believe federal and provincial governments need to help out more as the tiny city is an economic dynamo feeding taxes and employment to the rest of Canada.

Ms. Bohme believes Cold Lake can replicate Fort McMurray’s success, but sidestep its shortcomings.

“I am hoping that we have put enough things in place so that we don’t have some of the challenges Fort McMurray has.”


----------



## upandatom

Yeah, the report came out last year, yet no changes in the past year....


----------



## Quirky

Member in the original story got a posting to Quebec this summer. The system works.  :facepalm:


----------



## OldSolduer

Quirky said:
			
		

> Member in the original story got a posting to Quebec this summer. The system works.  :facepalm:



The preferable method of dealing with a problem: 

Post it out.


----------



## PuckChaser

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> The preferable method of dealing with a problem:
> 
> Post it out.



Thought it was promote and post? Can't complain about not getting enough money when he gets the $50 raise after taxes a month!


----------



## RADOPSIGOPACCISOP

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Thought it was promote and post? Can't complain about not getting enough money when he gets the $50 raise after taxes a month!



Take what you save in housing costs and put it into RRSPs, thereby lowering your effective tax rate.


----------



## reccecrewman

Sad to read.  One of the biggest mistakes the Government did was to hand over the reins of PMQ housing to CFHA.  Single soldiers always have the option of cheap, affordable barracks.  Nice for them, but married troops struggle mightily on some bases like Cold Lake where housing costs are through the roof.  Ideally, the PMQ's would be rented out on a scale reflective of rate of pay.  A Corporal with a wife and 3 children should pay less rent than a Warrant with 3 children.  Barracks rates and Mess dues are reflective of rank, why not Q's?


----------



## McG

reccecrewman said:
			
		

> Barracks rates and Mess dues are reflective of rank, why not Q's?


I don't think that is true.


----------



## Brasidas

MCG said:
			
		

> I don't think that is true.



Isn't true at my current mess or any other that I recall.


----------



## kratz

reccecrewman said:
			
		

> Single soldiers *do not* always have the option of cheap, affordable barracks.



FTFY...depending on base policy, unless you are on TD or on course, living in barracks is not an option and 
even single people are expected to live on the economy.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

reccecrewman said:
			
		

> A Corporal with a wife and 3 children should pay less rent than a Warrant with 3 children.



As much as there should be PMQ housing at a decent semi-market rate, I totally disagree with the above statement.  
...and it's pretty self-explanatory I do believe.


----------



## RADOPSIGOPACCISOP

reccecrewman said:
			
		

> Ideally, the PMQ's would be rented out on a scale reflective of rate of pay.  A Corporal with a wife and 3 children should pay less rent than a Warrant with 3 children.  Barracks rates and Mess dues are reflective of rank, why not Q's?



I have to agree. Frankly I think the PMQs ought to be there mainly for lower ranks first. I know most bases do offer PMQs in reverse order of rank. They ought to be affordable to those who need them.

The military makes special demands on families. They require soldiers to move, to uproot their families frequently. At the same time, having a dual income household is more and more the norm and more and more a neccessity. Being married to a CAF member makes it much more difficult for a spouse to build a real career of their own.


----------



## reccecrewman

I stand by my statement on barracks being priced differently, however, my scope of view is narrow.  I was speaking strictly from experience with the RCD in Petawawa.  The NCO's barracks is a higher monthly rate than the Trooper's and Corporal's in F-16 on Worthington Parade Square.  Perhaps other Bases, prices are the same. I don't know. Also, they may have changed that policy as it's been a few years since I last checked, but when they renovated the NCO`s barracks, the prices were higher than the JR`s living in F-16.


----------



## George Wallace

reccecrewman said:
			
		

> I stand by my statement on barracks being priced differently, however, my scope of view is narrow.  I was speaking strictly from experience with the RCD in Petawawa.  The NCO's barracks is a higher monthly rate than the Trooper's and Corporal's in F-16 on Worthington Parade Square.  Perhaps other Bases, prices are the same. I don't know. Also, they may have changed that policy as it's been a few years since I last checked, but when they renovated the NCO`s barracks, the prices were higher than the JR`s living in F-16.



The 'rent' for rooms in the Shacks is also dictated by the type of room one occupies.  A Single Occupancy room is more expensive than a Double Occupancy room.  Some shacks have Suites.  Rank is not necessarily the determining factor in what one will pay for rooms in the Shacks.  F-16 has Single Occupancy rooms and Multiple Occupancy rooms (for four pers) that are now classifed as Double Occupancy, so the pers living in those different rooms will also see differences in what is being deducted for Qtrs from their pay.


----------



## reccecrewman

Thank you for that George.  Clarifies things up nicely.  My apologies, I was under the belief it was based on rank.


----------



## George Wallace

reccecrewman said:
			
		

> Thank you for that George.  Clarifies things up nicely.  My apologies, I was under the belief it was based on rank.



In a round about way, it is.  Who is entitled to what size room/suite is often based on rank.


----------



## TCM621

kratz said:
			
		

> FTFY...depending on base policy, unless you are on TD or on course, living in barracks is not an option and
> even single people are expected to live on the economy.



It is a little bit pedantic but living in barracks is a viable option but only if the leadership allows it to be. Some places have embraced it while others leave shacks empty. And I do acknowledge that there are housing shortages in some bases.

A good solution that I saw in comox, which I have never seen before, is a series of small condo sized "apartments" that are controlled by base accommodations. They are perfect for a single member, and gives the members a sense of privacy often missing in shared accommodations. Yet the cf retains control and keeps the traditional barracks open for other needs such as person on TD, etc.


----------



## reccecrewman

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> As much as there should be PMQ housing at a decent semi-market rate, I totally disagree with the above statement.
> ...and it's pretty self-explanatory I do believe.



Everyone's entitled to their own opinion.  My reasoning behind having PMQ rents on a scale based on rank is simple.  A young Corporal with 3 young kids (for example) is in a weaker financial position than the Warrant with 3 children.  As a VAC employee, I have seen my fair share of still serving soldiers come through the District Office doors looking for any type of financial aid that VAC can provide.  For the most part, they get sent packing as VAC isn't be a financial bailout for administrative burdens who can't keep their finances in order.  However, a huge majority of those I've seen come through our doors are in fact, young Privates and Corporals with young families.  

If the Forces had their PMQ's on a sliding scale based off rank, it would lessen financial hardship on the lower ranks.  Spare me the argument of "I've done 20 years and I've EARNED my right to be making more than a Private/Corporal" because I agree with you.  A Warrant HAS earned the right to better pay than the Private/Corporal, but that doesn't mean there isn't something that can be done to offset the disparity in rent paid to income earned between the ranks.  Take Government subsidized housing as the model that could be applied to PMQ's. Subsidized housing looks at the occupants income and a percentage is taken for rent.  What's the real difference between Government subsidized housing and PMQ's anyway?  Most Q's I've seen are nothing spectacular, and some are downright junk.  Quick builds designed to provide shelter to soldier's and their families.  

By doing this, the Forces would also be lowering the risk of young families going through financial hardship.  I know here in Ontario, hydro costs are ridiculous and heating bills in the winter are harsh as well.  A car payment, utilities, insurance and groceries to feed a young family can chew up the lower ranks pay very quickly.  The senior NCO's are the ones that end up having to deal with these financial burdens when their creditors are calling the Unit looking for money.  I can go on an on, but there's no point as people's viewpoints are what they are.  

Regards


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

reccecrewman said:
			
		

> Subsidized housing looks at the occupants income and a percentage is taken for rent.



Have you EVER been in a subsidized housing area??  Most occupants are there because it makes the beer, nice cars, and dope cheaper.  [but that's a whole 'nother thread]
To stick to your post, just where does the other percentage come from??........oh yea, from other folks taxes who then have less money to spend on their own housing.

Now I'm not saying it isn't hard for a young new CF member to hang tough in the first few years but after four years or so a decent enough wage to live on is provided.  Unlike a lot of civilian jobs that just dry up and disappear....


----------



## Shamrock

reccecrewman said:
			
		

> Everyone's entitled to their own opinion.  My reasoning behind having PMQ rents on a scale based on rank is simple.  A young Corporal with 3 young kids (for example) is in a weaker financial position than the Warrant with 3 children.  As a VAC employee, I have seen my fair share of still serving soldiers come through the District Office doors looking for any type of financial aid that VAC can provide.  For the most part, they get sent packing as VAC isn't be a financial bailout for administrative burdens who can't keep their finances in order.  However, a huge majority of those I've seen come through our doors are in fact, young Privates and Corporals with young families.
> 
> If the Forces had their PMQ's on a sliding scale based off rank, it would lessen financial hardship on the lower ranks.  Spare me the argument of "I've done 20 years and I've EARNED my right to be making more than a Private/Corporal" because I agree with you.  A Warrant HAS earned the right to better pay than the Private/Corporal, but that doesn't mean there isn't something that can be done to offset the disparity in rent paid to income earned between the ranks.  Take Government subsidized housing as the model that could be applied to PMQ's. Subsidized housing looks at the occupants income and a percentage is taken for rent.  What's the real difference between Government subsidized housing and PMQ's anyway?  Most Q's I've seen are nothing spectacular, and some are downright junk.  Quick builds designed to provide shelter to soldier's and their families.
> 
> By doing this, the Forces would also be lowering the risk of young families going through financial hardship.  I know here in Ontario, hydro costs are ridiculous and heating bills in the winter are harsh as well.  A car payment, utilities, insurance and groceries to feed a young family can chew up the lower ranks pay very quickly.  The senior NCO's are the ones that end up having to deal with these financial burdens when their creditors are calling the Unit looking for money.  I can go on an on, but there's no point as people's viewpoints are what they are.
> 
> Regards



I _think_ the delta between your reasonable platform and reality is the Treasury Board who has decided that is a subsidy and we are thus not entitled.


----------



## reccecrewman

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Have you EVER been in a subsidized housing area??  Most occupants are there because it makes the beer, nice cars, and dope cheaper.  [but that's a whole 'nother thread]
> To stick to your post, just where does the other percentage come from??........oh yea, from other folks taxes who then have less money to spend on their own housing.



I have been in alot of subsidized housing developments over the course of my life Bruce.  I know many of the people who live in them are hardworking minimum wage earners who cannot, nor will they ever be able to scrape together enough cash to get their own home.  Of course there are people in them who are bottom feeders, but I digress.  I wasn't talking about the occupants of the subsidized housing, I was talking about the model of how rent is calculated.

To your second comment on just where the other percentage comes from - For the most part, PMQ's on our Canadian Forces Bases are of the post WWII era and into the 1950's.  These houses costs have long ago been paid off by generations of soldiers living in them for the past 50-60 years.  What we have now, are maintenance and upkeep costs, which the current occupants are paying more than enough to take care of.  Yes, there is new construction here and there, but for the most part, PMQ's are not new builds.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not advocating for Privates and Corporals to have virtually free housing.  I just think they can afford to shave off some of the rent due for lower ranks.


----------



## reccecrewman

Brasidas said:
			
		

> Isn't true at my current mess or any other that I recall.



CFB Petawawa Coriano Junior ranks Mess - $7.08 a month plus HST for ordinary members
CFB Petawawa Reichwald Mess for Senior NCO's - $17.00 a month plus HST for ordinary members
CFB Petawawa Normandy Officer's Mess - $28.25 a month for ordinary members.

The following link substantiates my statement;
http://www.cg.cfpsa.ca/cg-pc/Petawawa/EN/Messes/Coriano/Pages/default.aspx

I was merely pointing out that mess dues are on a sliding scale that highlight the income difference of lower ranks to senior ranks, why not use that same logical reasoning to the PMQ rents..


----------



## McG

reccecrewman said:
			
		

> CFB Petawawa Coriano Junior ranks Mess - $7.08 a month plus HST for ordinary members
> CFB Petawawa Reichwald Mess for Senior NCO's - $17.00 a month plus HST for ordinary members
> CFB Petawawa Normandy Officer's Mess - $28.25 a month for ordinary members.
> 
> The following link substantiates my statement;
> http://www.cg.cfpsa.ca/cg-pc/Petawawa/EN/Messes/Coriano/Pages/default.aspx
> 
> I was merely pointing out that mess dues are on a sliding scale that highlight the income difference of lower ranks to senior ranks, why not use that same logical reasoning to the PMQ rents..


Mess Dues are set by the membership.  They are not on a sliding scale.


----------



## Shamrock

MCG said:
			
		

> Mess Dues are set by the membership.  They are not on a sliding scale.



I wondered about that, and perhaps there's someone who can provide an answer.  In areas where officers outnumber troops (assuming such places exist), are their mess fees lower?


----------



## reccecrewman

MCG said:
			
		

> Mess Dues are set by the membership.  They are not on a sliding scale.



Ok fine - but there is still a substantial difference between what the JR's are paying and what Officer's are paying.


----------



## dapaterson

reccecrewman said:
			
		

> Ok fine - but there is still a substantial difference between what the JR's are paying and what Officer's are paying.


Yes.  Each mess sets its rate.

The only permissible variation is that messes may charge OCdts less than commissioned officers (it's been a while, so I do not have the reference handy).  But all ranks within a mess are charged the same rate.


----------



## Edward Campbell

There was a day, not all that many years decades back when, for officers, at least, mess charges - dues and charges for events - were calculated on a _pro rata_ basis. A LCol, for example, paid more for, essentially, the same service or meal, than did a Capt or a 2Lt, based on the fact that he, the LCol, made more money. There were pros and cons to the system ... the pros really don't matter as the system is long gone.


----------



## George Wallace

Shamrock said:
			
		

> MCG said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mess Dues are set by the membership.  They are not on a sliding scale.
> 
> 
> 
> I wondered about that, and perhaps there's someone who can provide an answer.  In areas where officers outnumber troops (assuming such places exist), are their mess fees lower?
Click to expand...


 ???

The Membership of the Mess approve all changes to Mess Dues at Mess Meetings.  Population demographics of a Base/Station/Unit/Ship/Installation have nothing to do with the population demographics of individual Messes.  If, for example, the Mess membership of a Jnr Ranks Mess approved higher Mess Dues than an Officers' Mess, then it is within their rights to do so.


----------



## captloadie

Mess dues are usually calculated to be the bare minimum to cover operating expenses (minus the bar), gift funds, and the fund to purchase new equipment. If you have a very profitable bar, you can subsidize the other funds and lower the mess dues. You cannot subsidize the bar with higher mess dues (ask the WO and Sgt's Mess in Cold Lake what happens if you do).


----------



## Biggoals2bdone

reccecrewman said:
			
		

> A Corporal with a wife and 3 children should pay less rent than a Warrant with 3 children.  Barracks rates and Mess dues are reflective of rank, why not Q's?



I will agree with others sentiment in not agreeing with this model.  To a degree $ of Qs is decided by rank as it is, since they cannot charge you more than 25% of your monthly pay.

I also don't think that you should get to pay less because you have kids.  Just because someone doesn't have kids doesn't mean they don't have other expenses that can't be put off. Maybe that was not the intent of the example, if not then I don't understand why 3 children were used in the example.  I'm married without kids, and I can't even afford a house here in Pet, so yes I feel the crunch that everyone else does as well.

My "kids" are my dogs and I don't expect to be given any breaks on what to pay because of the expenses they make me have.



			
				RADOPSIGOPACISSOP said:
			
		

> I have to agree. Frankly I think the PMQs ought to be there mainly for lower ranks first. I know most bases do offer PMQs in reverse order of rank. They ought to be affordable to those who need them.
> 
> The military makes special demands on families. They require soldiers to move, to uproot their families frequently. At the same time, having a dual income household is more and more the norm and more and more a neccessity. Being married to a CAF member makes it much more difficult for a spouse to build a real career of their own.



While growing up I didn't know anyone who had a single income family, as far as personal history goes dual income families have been the norm in Canada for years.  The only thing is, as you've mentioned we move a lot, and at least 50-60% of the postings are in small little crappy areas with almost zero good opportunities for spouses to find work besides minimum wage jobs.

My wife has 3 college diplomas and can't find work...do you know how frustrating that is for someone who has worked since they were 14-15, and how that limits what we can do (leisure, buy a home, car, student loans, etc)

Its not going to happen but the CF should either get better postings or be more proactive with work opportunities for serving members spouses, like I said neither of which will happen, and that is yet another reason why members leave the CF.


----------



## Transporter

MrBlue said:
			
		

> My "kids" are my dogs and I don't expect to be given any breaks on what to pay because of the expenses they make me have.



All due respect, but any valid argument that you had, or wished to have, on this topic went out the window as soon as you posted this.


----------



## Biggoals2bdone

That's BULL

and if you can't understand that statement for what it is, in that I am saying my dogs are my family and cost me money (food, vet bills, any kennel costs) as well as causing difficulties when I have to be gone all of a sudden, instead of in some creepy/juvenile way, then you need to grow up.

Oh sorry I forgot to add, with all due respect, since apparently you can add that and say anything after.


----------



## Halifax Tar

MrBlue said:
			
		

> That's BULL
> 
> and if you can't understand that statement for what it is, in that I am saying my dogs are my family and cost me money (food, vet bills, any kennel costs) as well as causing difficulties when I have to be gone all of a sudden, instead of in some creepy/juvenile way, then you need to grow up.
> 
> Oh sorry I forgot to add, with all due respect, since apparently you can add that and say anything after.



It does come off as if you are compaing a pet(s) to someones children.  Surly you must see the difference


----------



## Bird_Gunner45

MrBlue said:
			
		

> That's BULL
> 
> and if you can't understand that statement for what it is, in that I am saying my dogs are my family and cost me money (food, vet bills, any kennel costs) as well as causing difficulties when I have to be gone all of a sudden, instead of in some creepy/juvenile way, then you need to grow up.
> 
> Oh sorry I forgot to add, with all due respect, since apparently you can add that and say anything after.



I have to agree with transporter, comparing your dogs to children is ridiculous. 

Children cost far more than dogs, even when you include their food, vet bills, kennel costs, grooming, etc. Children are also, you know, human and your ACTUAL kids... dogs are dogs. And before you say something, I also own 2 cats and a dog, whom I have affection for, but still find it entirely ridiculous that you would state that. 

Further, your statement about better job opportunities or postings to help spouses... the bases are where they are for a very good reason- they are able to conduct military training in places such as Gagetown, Wainwright, Pet, etc without disturbing local populations, and the cost of the land was cheap enough to allow a base to be built. If we moved all the garrisons into larger centres we would still need to keep the austere bases open to conduct REAL training and would actually, in my opinion, HURT members. Look at the costs of living in Edmonton vs Gagetown or Ottawa vs. Petawawa. Throwing a large number of service members into more expensive urban centres would in all likelihood make the majority of families worse off than if they remained in the more austere postings.


----------



## Transporter

MrBlue said:
			
		

> That's BULL
> 
> and if you can't understand that statement for what it is, in that I am saying my dogs are my family and cost me money (food, vet bills, any kennel costs) as well as causing difficulties when I have to be gone all of a sudden, instead of in some creepy/juvenile way, then you need to grow up.
> 
> Oh sorry I forgot to add, with all due respect, since apparently you can add that and say anything after.



I have two dogs.


----------



## Halifax Tar

I have two dogs and 15 month old kid... I love my dogs, they are my hunting partner(s) but they dont hold a candle to my child and the are definatly less expensive even combined.


----------



## McG

I think the point on the K9 analogy is made.  Let's move back to the topic.


----------



## reccecrewman

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> Look at the costs of living in Edmonton vs Gagetown or Ottawa vs. Petawawa. Throwing a large number of service members into more expensive urban centres would in all likelihood make the majority of families worse off than if they remained in the more austere postings.



Unfortunately, the cost of living in Petawawa, in relation to it's size and available amenities, is also quite high. (As far as houses go - utilities, taxes and shopping are reasonable enough) Soldiers have, in large part contributed to the ridiculous rise of housing costs.  Yes, lack of homes also dictates that prices will be higher with demand being high, but most soldiers who get posted here will turn around in 4-6 years get posted out, and they all want to make a nice profit on their home.  I own a beautiful 4 bedroom home with a large lot that I paid $265,000 for this year.  It's original purchase price in 1991 as a new build was $121,000.  I checked around Ontario on MLS out of curiosity and found that my style of home sells in the $190-$220k range in cities like Barrie, Cornwall, London or Kitchener.  With such a high turnover rate of homes every year in Petawawa, the prices keep seeming to soar. Eventually it'll bottom out though!


----------



## Bird_Gunner45

reccecrewman said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, the cost of living in Petawawa, in relation to it's size and available amenities, is also quite high. (As far as houses go - utilities, taxes and shopping are reasonable enough) Soldiers have, in large part contributed to the ridiculous rise of housing costs.  Yes, lack of homes also dictates that prices will be higher with demand being high, but most soldiers who get posted here will turn around in 4-6 years get posted out, and they all want to make a nice profit on their home.  I own a beautiful 4 bedroom home with a large lot that I paid $265,000 for this year.  It's original purchase price in 1991 as a new build was $121,000.  I checked around Ontario on MLS out of curiosity and found that my style of home sells in the $190-$220k range in cities like Barrie, Cornwall, London or Kitchener.  With such a high turnover rate of homes every year in Petawawa, the prices keep seeming to soar. Eventually it'll bottom out though!



You are right in that prices in more austere base locations have climbed over the years, but a large part of that can be directly attributed to the increases in benefits, pay, and the offsets of years of free tour money (another benefit). Your $265,000 house in Pet, with land, would be a heck of a lot more expensive in Ottawa or Toronto. The OP stated that we should only put bases in populated areas. So in his estimation, it's better for you to live in Toronto or Ottawa and pay $350,000 for an old PMQ (which is normal), higher land taxes, and higher utilities than to live in Pet and pay lower costs for housing because he estimates military wives working will offset the costs... which is crazy


----------



## dimsum

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> So in his estimation, it's better for you to live in Toronto or Ottawa and pay $350,000 for an old PMQ (which is normal), higher land taxes, and higher utilities than to live in Pet and pay lower costs for housing because he estimates military wives working will offset the costs... which is crazy



Agreed.  I was visiting a friend in Sydney (Australia) where the RAN Fleet Base is, and took the train to the airport which is located 10 mins from downtown.  I was on the train for an hour, and there were RAN members who were already on there when I got on and were going to the Fleet Base downtown (next to the spot where the Sydney Harbour Bridge pics are taken from.)  I ended up asking one of them why they took the train 1.5 hours each way every day, and it was because that was the only area that he could afford.  

The member was a PO who makes decent money, so I shudder to think where an OS/AB would be living there.  I guess the only saving grace is that Navy folks generally stick to their home port for longer than Army/AF folks.


----------



## trustnoone73

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> So in his estimation, it's better for you to live in Toronto or Ottawa and pay $350,000 for an old PMQ (which is normal), higher land taxes, and higher utilities than to live in Pet and pay lower costs for housing because he estimates military wives working will offset the costs... which is crazy



It is pretty difficult to make generalizations between Pet, TO, or Ottawa or compare Edmonton to Gagetown (Why those two I don't know).   Generally speaking our close to professional salary when coupled with a spouse with a close to professional salary will do better in standard of living and in equity in a much more robust urban real-estate market over the long term.

If you are comparing a Private/Cpl with a single income or a minimum wage second income Pet will likely beat Ottawa.  If you compare the same cities with a member whose spouse makes 70K in the city and $7/hr rural you may want to take the hit on higher utilities.   

That being said, we are in the Military so we don't always get to pick.  For some it works, for some it doesn't.  It is probably easier for the member to be flexible on an individual basis than to move 2 CMBG to Ottawa.  Nothing is stopping anyone from a 6 month release and if they can't find all their kit, joining the PRes.

Oh, and I have fish.  They are my children.  I love them, but they can't ride BMX's for s**t.


----------



## Bird_Gunner45

trustnoone73 said:
			
		

> It is pretty difficult to make generalizations between Pet, TO, or Ottawa or compare Edmonton to Gagetown (Why those two I don't know).   Generally speaking our close to professional salary when coupled with a spouse with a close to professional salary will do better in standard of living and in equity in a much more robust urban real-estate market over the long term.
> 
> If you are comparing a Private/Cpl with a single income or a minimum wage second income Pet will likely beat Ottawa.  If you compare the same cities with a member whose spouse makes 70K in the city and $7/hr rural you may want to take the hit on higher utilities.
> 
> That being said, we are in the Military so we don't always get to pick.  For some it works, for some it doesn't.  It is probably easier for the member to be flexible on an individual basis than to move 2 CMBG to Ottawa.  Nothing is stopping anyone from a 6 month release and if they can't find all their kit, joining the PRes.
> 
> Oh, and I have fish.  They are my children.  I love them, but they can't ride BMX's for s**t.



The problem is what % of those pet/cpl have spouses that make 70k? For those who do, the major cities are better and for those who don't the $7/hr might be the best option. I also agree that we can't compare gagetown and edmonton, but pet/Ottawa is a good comparison.


----------



## dimsum

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> The problem is what % of those pet/cpl have spouses that make 70k? For those who do, the major cities are better and for those who don't the $7/hr might be the best option. I also agree that we can't compare gagetown and edmonton, but pet/Ottawa is a good comparison.



Or Greenwood/Halifax, or (more of a stretch) Comox/Victoria/Vancouver.


----------



## kolkim

Hey, I'm training in Borden as an AWS tech and I have some questions about Cold Lake for anyone who's been there before or recently.

How is the PMQ situation there? Being a single student in CFSATE it takes like 2 months to change your living status from prohibited to restricted, and then it takes a while to apply and get a PMQ, whole process took a couple of my married friends 2-4 months to get a PMQ. I am to understand that there is no living statuses such as prohibited or restricted when you are posted as a non-student but how long will it take from applying to receive one? I have a girl back home (Comox) and would love to have her moved out with me soon, but I can't afford rent in Cold lake. 

A question for people who were there recently. What is the demand for PMQs? Are there not enough PMQs for the amount of people requesting them or are there a surplus? I've noticed the CF rarely have surpluses of anything  :-X.

My friend who was in Cold Lake for a tasking told me that since of the high CF quit rate there, the CF put a Rent can only be up to 25% of your income thing. Is that true? And is that your income on paper so before taxes?

Thanks for your time.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Try this thread and there may be some info for you.
http://army.ca/forums/threads/3933.0.html


----------



## kolkim

Thanks Bruce for that post. I got some good information from that but from posts that were 11 years old and I think housing in a place like Cold lake can change alot in that time frame. Someone said theres alot of vacant housing, another person said there was a wait list.


----------



## smale436

I have been in Cold Lake for 6 years and living in a RHU the whole time. There are two different lists. You will be on the Priority 1 list for people getting posted in. (Pri 2 is people living elsewhere in CL who want a RHU for whatever reason but already have a place to live) When I left Borden I submitted the application by fax and a few days later had confirmation of the place I would be moving into. I believe my place on the list was determined by COS date. I was also single when I applied. There are many single people living in Qs here.

There are tonnes of empty units of various sizes.

I assume you will be coming as Private at the top pay incentive. (P3) P3 pay of 4120 + Cold Lake PLD of 320 is $4450. 25 percent of that is qbout $1100. Since you would get a small Q I assume, and have no kids you would probably be in a unit that is about $900-950 so the 25 % limit likely won't apply in your situation. It usually doesn't for the technician trades here.

The 25% limit was in place long before people started quitting in droves. And it's based on gross income before any deductions.


----------



## kolkim

Thanks CDNAIRFORCE for your input, very helpful. I'm a P1 now and I'll be P2 by the time I'm in CL. 

Is Pri 1 better than Pri 2? and is a RHU the same as a PMQ? Also, what is a COS date, I looked it up and it don't think it's Chief of Staff date lol. 

I'm glad there are alot of empty units. I will ask my base before I move to CL for a PMQ ready to be moved into.


----------



## PuckChaser

RHU is new term for PMQ. COS is change of strength, the date on your posting message you have to report to new unit. You'll be PRI 1 as you are a new posting to cold lake.


----------



## Sig_Des

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> RHU is new term for PMQ. COS is change of strength, the date on your posting message you have to report to new unit. You'll be PRI 1 as you are a new posting to cold lake.



Just so as to clarify, the CoS date is not necessarily your Report for Duty (RFD) date. It is the date that you now administratively belong to that new unit.


----------



## krimynal

Well this topic as been fairly helpfull , we are pretty much in the same situation right now , I am applying for AWS Tech or AVS Tech ( both Spec ).  I am currently in the forces tho , so it would be a Transfer rather than a New application.  I saw that you get Spec Pay only once you do you're QL3 as a CPL , so that wouldn't apply to me as we speak.

We do not have any children right now.  But well let's just say we are having the "Baby Talk" quite frequently haha ! So I guess it's only a matter of time.  My girlfriend would most likely stay at home once we have children ( we figured it would be the best thing to do , not have to pay for daycare / gas for work / etc. etc. ).  She is also thinking about maybe trying to make a daycare.

We are more then willing to get a PMQ , we are not ready to buy a house just yet and honestly I don't really see why we would buy one.  Unless we get a REALLY AWFULL PMQ, we would most likely stay in that and be just fine!

We are currently in the market for a new car , yes I would love to get a new truck , but they don't come cheap ... and I don't want to buy one , then learn that I get posted to Cold Lake and have to serve table as a second job just to pay for the truck !

I have to say I am unfamiliar with all the posting side of the army , I don't know if you get to choose or at least have a say in where you would like to be posted. 

I know that AWS Tech are basically Cold Lake , Bagotville , Greenwood and Comox , my 1st choice would DEFINETLY be Comox , but I know this is REALLY unlikely , I would love to get either Bagotville or Greenwood but I don't know how they decide who goes where.  My 1st language is french but I speak fluently English so that's not gonna be a deciding factor. 

if anyone of you have any idea or enlightenment I would love it !


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Spec pay is at Cpl with QL5 qual.


----------



## krimynal

okay , I honestly don't really know what the QLs are or how to achieve the QL5.  

I don't even know if it's something everyone gets , or if it's certain classes that you have to master.

The only thing I know is that somewhere down the line I should become Spec pay ! lol , I'll try to read here about spec pay and QL's


----------



## kolkim

Can anyone living in Cold lake tell me how the shacks are there? My main question is how often are room inspections?


----------



## Sigs Pig

kolkim said:
			
		

> Can anyone living in Cold lake tell me how the shacks are there? My main question is how often are room inspections?


kolkim, why start a new thread when you already asked about CL? Questions about Cold Lake PMQs

Or, CDNAIRFORCE seemed knowledgeable, why not just PM?

Just asking....
ME


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Quick question about the shacks and general area on the base at Cold Lake.  I've checked out their DIN Accn page and emailed but haven't gotten a reply.

Is there anywhere in or close to the shacks that has wifi?  I'm likely going there in the future, but am also doing a full credit course this spring and will have weekly things to submit, etc when I'm there, so I'm hoping there's something like the Dakota Inn, Yukon Lodge or something.  Canex?  

Any info appreciated!  I have a cell and could hotspot but if I change the awesome plan I have now to get data I'll never get my current plan back.


----------



## Quirky

Club 41 has wifi and it's a stones throw from the shacks.


----------



## SupersonicMax

You have wired Internet in the Maple Flag Inn.  Bring a router (or a Mac laptop) and you are golden.


----------



## Eagle_Eye_View

What the heck you're doing in Cold Lake? There's no such thing as AES Op in Cold Lake!


----------



## mike63

Ah beautiful Cold Lake.  I was posted there from 83-90, when I was a cook...one of my best postings, even after I re-mustered.  Met my wife in Edmonton and both my kids were born in CL.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Eagle Eye View said:
			
		

> What the heck you're doing in Cold Lake? There's no such thing as AES Op in Cold Lake!



There is for a few weeks!  Ex.

One of our FO's got tasked with the LRP LNO...in Wainwright.   :rofl:  I'll enjoy the view of Tower Hill and the Banana Feature better with a bit of flight feeding and a big cup'a coffee! From FL XXX.   ;D


----------



## dimsum

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> There is for a few weeks!  Ex.
> 
> One of our FO's got tasked with the LRP LNO...in Wainwright.   :rofl:  I'll enjoy the view of Tower Hill and the Banana Feature better with a bit of flight feeding and a big cup'a coffee! From FL XXX.   ;D



I did a similar job to that in 2011.  It's not all bad...at least the Air staff at the time had 16-man barracks and not in tents.   >


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Dimsum said:
			
		

> I did a similar job to that in 2011.  It's not all bad...at least the Air staff at the time had 16-man barracks and not in tents.   >



Ah, he thinks he will be in the Trg Area...I won't tell him any different.  He's been to Wain-wrong before and knows what its all about.  ha!


----------



## messupdude

Hello!

At the end of June I will be posted to Cold Lake assuming the semi isolated screening goes through smoothly. I was wondering what the shacks are like and what internet service providers are available to install into the shacks?


----------



## messupdude

mariomike said:
			
		

> For reference, perhaps Borden to Cold Lake Accomodations will be merged with CFB Cold Lake Thread- Merged.
> http://army.ca/forums/threads/3933.425
> 18 pages.



I took a look through it and it mostly talked about PMQ and increased prices. I just wanted to know what the barracks are like and what internet provider people use in the barracks.


----------



## Quirky

messupdude said:
			
		

> I took a look through it and it mostly talked about PMQ and increased prices. I just wanted to know what the barracks are like and what internet provider people use in the barracks.



I work with a guy in the shacks. He says it's not bad at all for a very cheap price. You get your own room with I believe a shared bathroom and cable is included. Internet is with eastlink I think and it's pretty fast but extra. If you don't want the shacks there are plenty of places to rent in town.


----------



## messupdude

Quirky said:
			
		

> I work with a guy in the shacks. He says it's not bad at all for a very cheap price. You get your own room with I believe a shared bathroom and cable is included. Internet is with eastlink I think and it's pretty fast but extra. If you don't want the shacks there are plenty of places to rent in town.


Any chance you know if it's air conditioned?

Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk


----------



## Pusser

messupdude said:
			
		

> Any chance you know if it's air conditioned?



You do realize that Cold Lake is a *CANADIAN *Forces Base don't you?


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Pusser said:
			
		

> You do realize that Cold Lake is a *CANADIAN *Forces Base don't you?



I'm going to guess you've never been to CL?  You'll want AC in the shacks.  

And if you want to blend in, driving a big honkin' white truck with $3000 worth of tires on it seems to do the trick.   ^-^


----------



## messupdude

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I'm going to guess you've never been to CL?  You'll want AC in the shacks.
> 
> And if you want to blend in, driving a big honkin' white truck with $3000 worth of tires on it seems to do the trick.   ^-^


LOL I'm just wondering whether to buy an AC on the way there or not. I'm from Vancouver and the eastern section of this country is killing me inside and out. I heard there were new shacks and wasn't sure if they came with ac already built in. I already bought a Mazda 3 here in Barrie and was considering buying chains.

Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk


----------



## Retired AF Guy

messupdude said:
			
		

> LOL I'm just wondering whether to buy an AC on the way there or not. I'm from Vancouver and the eastern section of this country is killing me inside and out. I heard there were new shacks and wasn't sure if they came with ac already built in. I already bought a Mazda 3 here in Barrie and was considering buying chains.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk



I was stationed in Cool Pool in the mid-late '80's and never needed chains; heck never even had snow tires, but, in hindsight, I would recommend a good set of snow tires. Also, make sure your car has a block heater installed or make sure you it get one installed upon arrival.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

messupdude said:
			
		

> LOL I'm just wondering whether to buy an AC on the way there or not. I'm from Vancouver and the eastern section of this country is killing me inside and out. I heard there were new shacks and wasn't sure if they came with ac already built in. I already bought a Mazda 3 here in Barrie and was considering buying chains.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk



I'd recommend going to the 4 Wing Accommodations DIN site, and contacting them, unless someone on here is currently living-in in CL.  There are enough stores in CL you should be able to buy one local when you get here;  I'd guess if you did want one and the room didn't have one, Accn would have to approve it anyways.


----------



## Pusser

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I'm going to guess you've never been to CL?  You'll want AC in the shacks.
> 
> And if you want to blend in, driving a big honkin' white truck with $3000 worth of tires on it seems to do the trick.   ^-^



I think you missed my point.  I wasn't commenting on whether or not it was needed, but rather on the fact that the Canadian Forces would never pay for air conditioning.  We would never think of putting people in a public building without heat, but we frequently put them in buildings without air conditioning (or at least adequate air conditioning).  Heck, we'll even force people to work in buildings with the heat on full blast, even though it's 25 degrees outside (because it's mid-April and we don't turn off the heat until end April - calendars are poor instruments for telling temperature...).


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Well.  The Maple Flag Inn has A/C...I haven't been in the SQs for Jnr Ranks.   :dunno:


----------



## Titicboom

Greetings,

I have been digging through and reading a lot about accommodations in Cold Lake (a lot of it might be dated information).  If a newly minted AC Op was posted to cold lake right out of BMQ.  What type of single quarters are currently available. The 4 wing Cold Lake website I have found is less then informative.

Also have things improved since all the studies done in 2013 by the Ombudsmen or is cost of living and finding reasonable housing still a major concern with members serving there.

What recommendations would you have to a 19 year old moving into the Cold Lake area.  Career wise it seems an excellent choice for an OJT and first posting but having read so much bad publicity on the need to take a second job and the fact the PMQ's are in a horrible state and still are some of the most expensive at any air force base, it makes one have a deep second thought.  

If anyone has a good link even from the DIN that would provide some good answers that would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## 123zxy

If you are posted right out of BMQ to Cold Lake then you will be put into Building 45.  Which is double rooms (some people are not sharing) but you could always get a roommate at anytime depending on how busy the barracks are.  Bathrooms are a located on each floor and are common.  There are also common rooms on each floor and cable is also provided currently.  

PMQ prices have gone down, but overall I would recommend the barracks to save money if you are ok with the common living situation.


----------



## messupdude

123zxy said:
			
		

> If you are posted right out of BMQ to Cold Lake then you will be put into Building 45.  Which is double rooms (some people are not sharing) but you could always get a roommate at anytime depending on how busy the barracks are.  Bathrooms are a located on each floor and are common.  There are also common rooms on each floor and cable is also provided currently.
> 
> PMQ prices have gone down, but overall I would recommend the barracks to save money if you are ok with the common living situation.


Some slight corrections. Pvt/Cpl will be put into building 45 or top floor of building 44 (all ranks). MCpl and above will be in Maple Flag In. Officers will be in building 42 I think?

Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk


----------



## Titicboom

Thank you,

Very quick replies and greatly appreciated.

Both of you supplied excellent information and good clarity.

Do you know if there is optional internet in the SQ's that can be paid for separately?


----------



## messupdude

Internet is provided my eastlink. You have to get that separately for each room.

Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk


----------



## Quirky

Do yourself a favour and get an appartment in town, since the oil declined a few years ago there have been lots of available places to rent. Go onto infomall.com or the Facebook rental group. You have lots of options in different price ranges, furnished, utilities included etc.

Absolutely stay away from the barracks and PMQs, there is no reason to be in them with the local economy the way it is. Your quality of life will be that much better trust me.

I've been in CL since 06 and have done the barracks, PMQ and now own. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.


----------



## 123zxy

Just a note, as they have reorganized the buildings in Cold Lake that Ptv/ Cpl are building 45, building 43 is Mcpl to WO, 42 is the IR building and Officers/ MWO and CWO.  Building 44 floors 1 and 2 are transient, floor 3 is overflow, just generally only 2Lt's are placed there.  Someone who is coming from BMQ will not be placed in 44, if they are for some reason, they will have to move to 45 after.


----------



## Titicboom

Great information,

with 45 is it still 2 per room with group bathroom?


----------



## Eye In The Sky

messupdude said:
			
		

> Some slight corrections. Pvt Avr /Cpl will be put into building 45...





			
				123zxy said:
			
		

> Just a note, as they have reorganized the buildings in Cold Lake that Ptv Avr / Cpl are building 45, building 43 is ...



Not only are their no _Pvt's_ or _Ptvs_ in the entire CAF, as an AC Op he/she would be an Aviator (Avr) vice a * Private (Pte) * as well.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/honours-history-badges-insignia/rank-air-force.page

 :nod:


----------



## messupdude

Titicboom said:
			
		

> Great information,
> 
> with 45 is it still 2 per room with group bathroom?



Yes it is 2 per room and group bathroom. You are also entitled to a storage unit that was recently built and finished a month ago or so.


----------



## CLakeDependent

Hello, we are in our 4th year here in Cold Lake. 6 months ago I was diagnosed with 2 chronic diseases. Being in CL, I cannot get a doctor (only a nurse) and can't even get a referral to the specialist I need because there is a year + waiting list in Alberta due to shortages. My health is getting worse, and we need to move somewhere with better medical care. Ontario has the shortest wait time for the specialists that I need and we have family there, so the plan is to get my nurse to write me a letter explaining my need for better care, and a referral for a specialist in Ontario. After I get my letter, we plan on meeting with my spouse's Padre or social worker to discuss the difficulty being in CL. Am I right in thinking that this would be a reason for a cost contingency move? Also, if there is anything we can do to speed up this process or have any luck at all, please help! Thanks so much.


----------



## Gunner98

To speed up the process your spouse needs to inform his chain of command, get his chain of command's support and for them to approach the appropriate career manager for posting options.  Unless these things are also in place then the contingency cost move is only a recommendation from the social worker or Padre.  The social worker will meet with you both to get specifics on your conditions and may need you to sign a release of information so that they can acquire appropriate clinical information to guide their assessment.  In the end it may require you to get a referral to a specialist where you are hoping to go to ensure that you appropriate access to care.  This may lead to you moving with your extended family to begin treatment before everything is arranged. Compassionate leave could be granted for your spouse to accompany you during this assessment phase.


----------



## Strike

The big thing is to make sure your spouse's chain of command is kept in the loop on what is going on.  He may be able to get a regular posting out of it which would make everyone's life easier.  This is how my family got posted to Kingston - my father was diagnosed with lung cancer and, given their age and the fact that my siblings didn't live close enough to be able to work and help out when needed, it only made sense that I look for a posting back home.

Good luck.


----------



## AirmanA

Cold Lake is the worst posting in the CAF. Most of the fighter pilots on the base have never left there for 15+ years and it’s developed its own culture that is far different from the RCAF and the CAF you may be familiar with. They refer to themselves as “cool pool” in Cold Lake, and if you aren’t part of the ‘in’ fighter pilot gang, then you are shunned and this will likely be the most difficult time of your life for both you and your family in your CAF careers. Tip: get in with the cool people right away, or good luck.


----------



## mariomike

AirmanA said:


> Cold Lake is the worst posting in the CAF.


My sister loves Cold Lake. 165 acres, horses, hunting and fishing.


----------



## Weinie

AirmanA said:


> Cold Lake is the worst posting in the CAF.


From CFB Shilo - 'thems fighting words."


----------



## Good2Golf

Weinie said:


> From CFB Shilo - 'thems fighting words."


or...

CFB Shilo: "Here, hold my beer!"


----------



## Weinie

Good2Golf said:


> or...
> 
> CFB Shilo: "As soon as I finish my Here, hold my  beer, I'm gonna kick your ass!"


FTFY.


----------



## Quirky

AirmanA said:


> Cold Lake is the worst posting in the CAF. Most of the fighter pilots on the base have never left there for 15+ years and it’s developed its own culture that is far different from the RCAF and the CAF you may be familiar with. They refer to themselves as “cool pool” in Cold Lake, and if you aren’t part of the ‘in’ fighter pilot gang, then you are shunned and this will likely be the most difficult time of your life for both you and your family in your CAF careers. Tip: get in with the cool people right away, or good luck.



Tip: don’t give a shit about being in with the  “cool people”, being pilots or otherwise. If you crave popularity or being accepted by others you have other issues.


----------



## dapaterson

Good2Golf said:


> or...
> 
> CFB Shilo: "Here, hold my beer!"


I thought it was "Here, hold my dog."


----------



## Weinie

dapaterson said:


> I thought it was "Here, hold my dog."


No, that was Wardroom in Esquimalt, late 80's.


----------



## Gjm

I am in the process of re-enlisting as a acs tech, and i have the option of 1ams, 410, 409, or 401. was hoping i could get some insight to help me make a decision on which unit to choose as an Acs tech. 

Cheers


----------



## Quirky

You get a choice now?

Avoid 1AMS at all costs, trust me from experience. 410 is a training unit that doesn’t deploy while 401/409 does. Depends what you’re looking for.


----------



## Gjm

Quirky said:


> You get a choice now?
> 
> Avoid 1AMS at all costs, trust me from experience. 410 is a training unit that doesn’t deploy while 401/409 does. Depends what you’re looking for.


Thanks for the info! Any differences between 409 and 401?


----------



## Gjm

Quirky said:


> You get a choice now?
> 
> Avoid 1AMS at all costs, trust me from experience. 410 is a training unit that doesn’t deploy while 401/409 does. Depends what you’re looking for.


Thanks for the info! Any differences between 409 and 401?


----------



## Quirky

Gjm said:


> Thanks for the info! Any differences between 409 and 401?



Not really, they are essentially sister squadrons. Rumour is 409 is the better place to be now, but that’s off second-hand rumours and it changes in a yearly basis. I did both squadrons and both have highs and lows depending on what’s going on and who’s in charge. Just don’t go to 1AMS.


----------



## Gjm

Quirky said:


> Not really, they are essentially sister squadrons. Rumour is 409 is the better place to be now, but that’s off second-hand rumours and it changes in a yearly basis. I did both squadrons and both have highs and lows depending on what’s going on and who’s in charge. Just don’t go to 1AMS.


appreciate the insight!


----------



## cld617

Gjm said:


> I am in the process of re-enlisting as a acs tech, and i have the option of 1ams, 410, 409, or 401. was hoping i could get some insight to help me make a decision on which unit to choose as an Acs tech.
> 
> Cheers


First, I would be skeptical of anyone telling you that you have a choice of units if you're still not in. Unless you're talking to the Cold Lake ETO/DETO or ACS trade advisor, you're not speaking with the people who make those decisions. Where you end up on the wing is the ETO's discretion, the CM just sends you to Cold Lake.

Second, 401 vs 409 if you want to get tours, 410 if you just want to deploy. The AMS shouldn't be on anyone's choice list.


----------



## Furniture

cld617 said:


> First, I would be skeptical of anyone telling you that you have a choice of units if you're still not in. Unless you're talking to the Cold Lake ETO/DETO or ACS trade advisor, you're not speaking with the people who make those decisions. Where you end up on the wing is the ETO's discretion, the CM just sends you to Cold Lake.
> 
> Second, 401 vs 409 if you want to get tours, 410 if you just want to deploy. The AMS shouldn't be on anyone's choice list.


Not 100% accurate. Local staff may attach post people between units, but the CM is the one who posts people to specific positions. 

Every in-trade position is managed by the MC, and I believe upon rejoining the CM is the one that designates the position number/position. Local staff may do an AP if it makes sense, but I believe rejoining offers are based on position number, not just "location".


----------



## MJP

Furniture said:


> Not 100% accurate. Local staff may attach post people between units, but the CM is the one who posts people to specific positions.
> 
> Every in-trade position is managed by the MC, and I believe upon rejoining the CM is the one that designates the position number/position. Local staff may do an AP if it makes sense, but I believe rejoining offers are based on position number, not just "location".


I think it is pretty accurate as the CM's posting message is usually based on feedback from the regional reps.  CMs can't possibly know every nuance for members and the region (except for small trades) so they rely on the regional folks to essentially create the plot that the CM reviews and then enacts with actual posting messages.


----------



## Furniture

MJP said:


> I think it is pretty accurate as the CM's posting message is usually based on feedback from the regional reps.  CMs can't possibly know every nuance for members and the region (except for small trades) so they rely on the regional folks to essentially create the plot that the CM reviews and then enacts with actual posting messages.


For a normal posting I'd agee, but the local rep isn't the one that will be speaking with a member rejoining. It's the recruiting centre, and a CM that handle a member getting back in as far as I'm aware. My contact in the CM world just left the job a week ago, but based on our last discussion that's the jist of it. 

Even beyond all of that though, each posting is to a specific position number, so the CM is the final authority on where a member is posted, and then the local chain uses AP to "make it work" as required.


----------



## MJP

Furniture said:


> For a normal posting I'd agee, but the local rep isn't the one that will be speaking with a member rejoining. It's the recruiting centre, and a CM that handle a member getting back in as far as I'm aware. My contact in the CM world just left the job a week ago, but based on our last discussion that's the jist of it.
> 
> Even beyond all of that though, each posting is to a specific position number, so the CM is the final authority on where a member is posted, and then the local chain uses AP to "make it work" as required.


It is an interconnected chain between a local rep and the CM,  I suspect none of them are making this a blind dart board throw. Re-joining may have some additional nuances but parachuting someone in without talking to a local rep would just be silly, it is at its core just a posting from outside the area at the end of the day.  The only difference is the local rep (either at gaining/losing area) is just not part of the mbr CM loop in this case. It is a CM to recruiter as you point out with the local rep giving feedback on spots to fill to the CM which are passed on to mbr through recruiting center.  

At the end of the day it could totally be the CM just looking at their open posns in an area for that rank and pulling the trigger but my experience has been that isn't the case.


----------



## Mick

cld617 said:


> First, I would be skeptical of anyone telling you that you have a choice of units if you're still not in. Unless you're talking to the Cold Lake ETO/DETO or ACS trade advisor, you're not speaking with the people who make those decisions. Where you end up on the wing is the ETO's discretion, the CM just sends you to Cold Lake.
> 
> Second, 401 vs 409 if you want to get tours, 410 if you just want to deploy. The AMS shouldn't be on anyone's choice list.


Just curious about this statement, 401 vs 409.  Is it a NORAD / domestic role vs NATO / expeditionary role difference?


----------



## SupersonicMax

Furniture said:


> Not 100% accurate. Local staff may attach post people between units, but the CM is the one who posts people to specific positions.
> 
> Every in-trade position is managed by the MC, and I believe upon rejoining the CM is the one that designates the position number/position. Local staff may do an AP if it makes sense, but I believe rejoining offers are based on position number, not just "location".


I thought that Hornet techs were now managed at the CAG level rather than CM level?


----------



## Furniture

SupersonicMax said:


> I thought that Hornet techs were now managed at the CAG level rather than CM level?


Maybe, I'm not 100% familiar with all trades, but the general rule is the CM cuts the message and posts the member. 

Unless the RCAF has come up with a policy that bypasses DGMC, I'm pretty sure they function under the same general system the rest of the CAF does. At the pointy end it may seem the local authority makes the decisions, but in practice, the local authority still has to go through the career shop to make things happen.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Furniture said:


> Maybe, I'm not 100% familiar with all trades, but the general rule is the CM cuts the message and posts the member.
> 
> Unless the RCAF has come up with a policy that bypasses DGMC, I'm pretty sure they function under the same general system the rest of the CAF does. At the pointy end it may seem the local authority makes the decisions, but in practice, the local authority still has to go through the career shop to make things happen.


Of course, but I am pretty sure the who goes where is decided at the CAG level and the CMs just cut the messages.


----------



## CBH99

cld617 said:


> First, I would be skeptical of anyone telling you that you have a choice of units if you're still not in. Unless you're talking to the Cold Lake ETO/DETO or ACS trade advisor, you're not speaking with the people who make those decisions. Where you end up on the wing is the ETO's discretion, the CM just sends you to Cold Lake.
> 
> Second, 401 vs 409 if you want to get tours, 410 if you just want to deploy. The AMS shouldn't be on anyone's choice list.


Sorry, Army guy here so just asking for clarification on that last bit.

You mention 401 & 409 if one wants to get tour, and 410 if they just want to deploy.  What is the difference between a tour and a deployment in RCAF parlance?  (When I deployed to Kandahar, we considered it a tour.)

Also, a few people mentioned to avoid 1AMS, or that AMS shouldn’t be on the list.  Why is that?  (Genuinely no idea)


----------



## Quirky

CBH99 said:


> Sorry, Army guy here so just asking for clarification on that last bit.
> 
> You mention 401 & 409 if one wants to get tour, and 410 if they just want to deploy.  What is the difference between a tour and a deployment in RCAF parlance?  (When I deployed to Kandahar, we considered it a tour.)
> 
> Also, a few people mentioned to avoid 1AMS, or that AMS shouldn’t be on the list.  Why is that?  (Genuinely no idea)



I believe he meant by deploy as in TD (Temporary Deployments) when in actuality they are exercises in the US. 401/409 deploys in your normal overseas sense like eastern europe. In my mind, Deploy=tax free pay and medal parades. TD=endless flying in Miramar or Key West. 

1AMS is a shops unit where you don't see the light of day. I think the entirety of the place should be phased over to civilian contractors and the military personnel be put back into front-line ramp units. Quite often the 4xx sqn undesirables get sent to 1AMS, then you have an entire organisation full of people with medical, personal or professional issues. It's the dumping ground (not all people) of the wing.


----------



## cld617

Furniture said:


> Not 100% accurate. Local staff may attach post people between units, but the CM is the one who posts people to specific positions.
> 
> Every in-trade position is managed by the MC, and I believe upon rejoining the CM is the one that designates the position number/position. Local staff may do an AP if it makes sense, but I believe rejoining offers are based on position number, not just "location".



You may believe so, but you'd be naive to the Cold Lake-isms that take place once you're destined for that base. There are 6 units (AETE not included) in which an ACS tech can be posted to; 401, 409, 410, 417, 1 AMS and 10 FTTS...they're all under the purview of Cold Lake's own ETO. That base is as incestuous as it gets.

In my time there, I've seen at least 2 dozen mbrs arrive with a posting message that says one thing, and a location to report to on day 1 that doesn't match. The CM may ultimately have to cut a message, but I'll be damned if I haven't seen who wears the pants in the relationship.


----------

