# England Afraid to Fly the Union Jack?



## muskrat89 (7 Jun 2006)

More lunacy


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3258613,00.html

England afraid to fly its own flag



Following threats by extremist Islamic group, several corporations, chain of pubs ban England flag
Modi Kreitman


Following warnings by extremist Islamic group al-Muhajiroun, in which the group said that the red cross in the England flag symbolizes the 'blood thirsty crusaders' and the occupation of Muslims, some of the largest companies in England have ordered their workers not to wave the flags.


The flag has recently appeared in England on everything from bikinis to cars, and sold in endless versions in stores.



But the Islamic protest forced some corporations, such as cable companies NTL, and even the Drivers and Vehicles Licensing Agency to ban the flag in every form due to fears from reactions of Muslims.


The Sun tabloid newspaper has in recent days launched a campaign to bring back the flag, and has published a blacklist of companies preventing their workers from expressing their patriotism at work.


The Sun said that a large pub network has banned drinkers from entering with symbols of the national team.


The hero of the day is a two year-old toddler, who was thrown out with his parents from Leicester, because he wore the England team's uniform.



(06.04.06, 16:31)


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## exsemjingo (7 Jun 2006)

Only in Britian...
This is as bad when they were afraid to celebrate Christmas!


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## tamouh (7 Jun 2006)

The story is taken out of context. This is the actual story from the Sun Tabloid and it has no mention of threats, jihadists or terrorism:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006250446,00.html

Also, some interesting one about bad drivers:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2006180006-2006240030,,00.html

The YT News story have been taken completely out of context. I think it is absurd for the English not to fly their own flag !! whoever is making that decision is in my humble opinion an idiot!


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## muskrat89 (7 Jun 2006)

Dunno...

From the website that *you* cited:



> Anjem Choudary, a former leader of the Islamic extremist group Al-Muhajiroun, claimed the St George flag symbolised a bloodthirsty past. He said: “The cross does represent Christianity and for Muslims it also represents a crusader history of occupation and murder.”



So it doesn't appear to be totally off-base


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## tamouh (7 Jun 2006)

sorry, I didn't go over that part. Still weird they'd do discourage holding a flag!!!


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## Kat Stevens (7 Jun 2006)

And so....?  The crescent symbolizes the slaughter of thousands of unarmed christian pilgrims to the Holy Land, but I'm over it   :.


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## George Wallace (7 Jun 2006)

That's just it Kat.  We have risen from the ashes of those times and stepped forward with our lives.  They are still living in the Middle ages, with the codes of vendettas and revenge still making their mark on them......all for 'honour'?


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## Kat Stevens (7 Jun 2006)

I also notice that when an earthquake knocks crap out of a muslim country, the Red Cross is not only tolerated, but welcomed..... anyone care to guess where THAT noble symbols roots lie?


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## Scoobie Newbie (7 Jun 2006)

Hypocrisy comes in many languages, cultures and beliefs.


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## paracowboy (7 Jun 2006)

cowardice. If true, it's simply appeasement, and is total bollocks!


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## George Wallace (7 Jun 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> cowardice. If true, it's simply appeasement, and is total bollocks!


.....And the flea at the tip of the tail, wags the dog.


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## old medic (7 Jun 2006)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> I also notice that when an earthquake knocks crap out of a muslim country, the Red Cross is not only tolerated, but welcomed..... anyone care to guess where THAT noble symbols roots lie?



It's the colour reverse of the Swiss flag.
The Swiss used a solid red flag until 1792, when they first added the white cross.

Source: Swiss Department of Foreign Affairs  
http://www.eda.admin.ch/canada_all/e/home/facts/flag.html



> It was not until 1792 that a small white cross would feature in the upper corner
> of the red battle flag of Schwyz. Canton Schwyz gave our country its name and
> the red colour of its banner similarly influenced our national flag. However, the
> cross on the Swiss flag does not come from Canton Schwyz.
> ...


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## TMM (7 Jun 2006)

I found the original article on which this is based. Nothing to do with Islamists at all:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006250637,,00.html


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## muskrat89 (7 Jun 2006)

Actually, it appears to be from a conglomeration of events...

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/10/04/britain.redcross/index.html

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006200805,00.html


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## Kat Stevens (7 Jun 2006)

old medic said:
			
		

> It's the colour reverse of the Swiss flag.
> The Swiss used a solid red flag until 1792, when they first added the white cross.
> 
> Source: Swiss Department of Foreign Affairs
> http://www.eda.admin.ch/canada_all/e/home/facts/flag.html



The region of Schwyz in central Switzerland, one of the three founding members of the Old Swiss Confederacy, and the one, whose name was later in history used to denote the confederacy as a whole, was granted immediacy in 1240 and carried a red flag from the middle of the 13th century on (yet still without the white cross). In 1289 they supported King Rudolf of Habsburg in a war against Burgundy and received as a recognition the right to represent the crucifixion of Christ and the tools used to torture him in the upper right field on their flag. Originally they painted this symbol on parchment and fastened it on the banner. Only later the cross symbol was painted directly on the banner. 


this from here: http://history-switzerland.geschichte-schweiz.ch/history-flag-switzerland.html

but thanks for playing, it was fun.  Next:

Doyle added that it was now time for England to find a new flag and a patron saint who is "not associated with our bloody past and one we can all identify with."

This one makes me want to puke.  Errr, Doyle's not an English name anyway, is it?  Should the Irish get rid of the shamrock?  After all it was used by St Fatprick as a symbol for the Holy Trinity.  It's a bloody disgrace that the nation that owned 1/3 of the land mass of this planet at one time is now kissing up to bunch of convicts.  Political correctnes can kiss my lilly white English arse.


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## winchable (7 Jun 2006)

I wonder what they'd think of my St. George's curtains?


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## the 48th regulator (7 Jun 2006)

S_Baker said:
			
		

> well whatever, I'll still fly it.  future Knights Templar member here



Watch out Baker, otherwise the Pirates will rile Para-skeart-boy....

I would never have thought that I would see the stiff upper lip be slapped by the limp wrist of cowardice....

Raise the flags and be be proud, rule Britania!

dileas

tess


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## calgarytanks (7 Jun 2006)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> I also notice that when an earthquake knocks crap out of a muslim country, the Red Cross is not only tolerated, but welcomed..... anyone care to guess where THAT noble symbols roots lie?



if an aid society came to Canada in the wake of disaster and flew the Red Crescent, would we be ok with it?


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## the 48th regulator (7 Jun 2006)

calgarytanks said:
			
		

> if an aid society came to Canada in the wake of disaster and flew the Red Crescent, would we be ok with it?



Of course we would,

I don't beleive anyone would be burning their tent down.

Give your head a shake.

dileas

tess


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## tamouh (7 Jun 2006)

Crescent is not the islamic symbol during crusade wars...I believe black and green flags were the symbol. Byzantines are who used the crescent for the first time which later was adopted by Ottomon empire:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crescent

Anyway, I know for a fact the crescent wasn't a symbol nor a flag for Islam until that time. I believe different muslim regions used to carry different flag colors (e.g. iraq region were known for their black flags, the Sham region (syria,lebanon,jordan,palestine) had the green or the red flag.

This is nice article on crusade time that looks at both sides:

http://www.doaks.org/Crusades/CR03.pdf


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## the 48th regulator (7 Jun 2006)

tamouh said:
			
		

> Crescent is not the islamic symbol during crusade wars...I believe black and green flags were the symbol. Byzantines are who used the crescent for the first time which later was adopted by Ottomon empire:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crescent
> 
> ...



Neat,

What's your point, or do you want me to look that up on wilkpedia too?

dileas

tess


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## onecat (7 Jun 2006)

It's not the Union jack, but the English flag which is the cross of St George that is being talked about.  The English flag ( not the flag of Great Britian of the UK) is also a fasist symbol that is why there is talk of banning it.  Hopefully it will never happen, but your title should be changed.


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## the 48th regulator (7 Jun 2006)

radiohead said:
			
		

> It's not the Union jack, but the English flag which is the cross of St George that is being talked about.  The English flag ( not the flag of Great Britian of the UK) is also a fasist symbol that is why there is talk of banning it.  Hopefully it will never happen, but your title should be changed.



Uhm,

Since when did St. George's cross become a sole Fascist symbol?  It has represented the English, since the inception of Saint George as England's Patron Saint.  Because "Political radicals" have adopted it, how has it been reasonable to banish it.

Please provide data to back up this statement.

dileas

tess


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## TMM (8 Jun 2006)

Thanks 48th. I woke up from a nap to see that and went, WTF - am I having a nightmare?

The English flag/St. George's cross is also a religious symbol and has as much meaning to a great many people as the crescent and Star of David have to others.


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## the 48th regulator (8 Jun 2006)

I can't stand ponzi statements, is all

dileas

tess


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## Kat Stevens (8 Jun 2006)

radiohead said:
			
		

> It's not the Union jack, but the English flag which is the cross of St George that is being talked about.  The English flag ( not the flag of Great Britian of the UK) is also a fasist symbol that is why there is talk of banning it.  Hopefully it will never happen, but your title should be changed.




Okay, work with me here.  If you disassemble the Union Flag, what do you get?   What is it comprised of?  Hint:  more than one Christian Saint is involved.


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## Kirkhill (8 Jun 2006)

radiohead: 

Where on earth did you get the misbegotten notion that the Cross of St. George was a fascist symbol?  English soldiers have been wearing that cross since the days of Richard the Lionheart at least and possibly earlier.  It was the uniform they were wearing when they got beaten by William Wallace and his lads carrying one of the other crosses of the Union Jack, the cross of St Andrew.

For those unclear of where Kat is coming from:

Upright red cross on white for St George - patron SAINT of England
Diagonal white cross on blue for St Andrew - patron SAINT of Scotland
Diagonal red cross on white for St Patrick - patron SAINT of Ireland

They would have put the Welsh patron, Saint David, on the flag as well but the designers felt that a leek might be just a bit too over the top.

Cheers.


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## muskrat89 (8 Jun 2006)

radiohead - from the article I posted originally  





> group said that the red cross *in* the England flag


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## TMM (8 Jun 2006)

*group said that the red cross in the England flag*

Semantics I know but it should read "group said that the red cross *IS* the England flag"




			
				Kirkhill said:
			
		

> They would have put the Welsh patron, Saint David, on the flag as well but the designers felt that a leek might be just a bit too over the top.



Isn't that the typical lot of the Welsh? Gypped again!


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## Kat Stevens (8 Jun 2006)

Remember Owain Glyndower!!


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## George Wallace (8 Jun 2006)

tamouh said:
			
		

> Crescent is not the islamic symbol during crusade wars...I believe black and green flags were the symbol. Byzantines are who used the crescent for the first time which later was adopted by Ottomon empire:



If you want to play that card, then you can also take into account that not all crusaders were English, nor did they all wear the Cross of St George.


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## ayates (8 Jun 2006)

On a similar note, from reading the magazine "This England", there has been a push from the governement level to have the Union Jack replaced with the European flag on public buildings.


Allan.


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## Kat Stevens (8 Jun 2006)

Sorry, no good.  The EU flag has stars on it. It was a bright star that led the three wise men to the scene of the Nativity.  Stars are a direct reminder that there are non muslims in this world.  Not on at all, I'm afraid..... :


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## Michael Dorosh (8 Jun 2006)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Of course we would,
> 
> I don't beleive anyone would be burning their tent down.
> 
> ...



That was a poor example - but imagine an aid group from India or China flying a flag with a swastika on it on Canadian - or Israeli - soil. (In those countries the swastika is still untainted by Nazism and is a sign of good luck, as it was here before 1939). I think the point is that the crusader's cross is offensive to some for historical reasons. Yes, some people go out of their way to take offence at petty stuff, but others also go out of their way to be ambivalent about giving offence. I personally would welcome help in a disaster no matter which flag was flying; others would not.

In this case, I think they're trying too hard to be offended. People are funny.


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## TMM (8 Jun 2006)

ayates said:
			
		

> On a similar note, from reading the magazine "This England", there has been a push from the governement level to have the Union Jack replaced with the European flag on public buildings.



I friends in theUK and they say the opposite: MPs are giving away Union Jacks and encouraging them to be flown/waved.




			
				Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> I personally would welcome help in a disaster no matter which flag was flying; others would not.



+1

It's not the flag bandaging my wounds or giving me water but a human being. Heck, in that situation I'd even accept help from a Tory


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## the 48th regulator (8 Jun 2006)

Good Example Michael,

Agreed on that.

Funny The Order of St. Johns were also members of the crusades, what next should we stop them from aiding any offended people as well.  Seems to me a reaction from Europeans in the wake of removing all secular items worn by people.  France comes to Mind.  Maybe the English should start rioting...

dileas

tess


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## George Wallace (12 Jun 2006)

SB

I think you got your topics mixed up and should have been in the inappropriately titled "British thieves to finally return stolen property".


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