# Students view of Canadian military power changing?



## ltmaverick25 (3 Mar 2009)

I wasnt sure which sub forum to post this in so I figured I would give it a try here.  Feel free to move it if I have placed it in the wrong spot..

I have just finished marking papers for a first year university class in Canadian military history.  I noticed a pattern in the conclusions students were making.  The short of it is, the majority of the students felt that Canada was a growing military power.  I asked around among some friends that are also marking papers this term for different military history classes.  Alot of them were saying the same thing.  We asked a couple of professors that have taught these courses before, and for the most part, this seems to be a very new trend.  I may be over reacting a bit, but, the feedback I got from some of the professors was that words like Canada and power dont often get used together in the same sentence unless its to discuss Canada's lack thereof.  When we take up the marks of these papers we plan to ask students thoughts on this directly to see if we are reading this properly.

In the meantime, any thoughts?  Do you think that the mission in Afghanistan is somehow changing the way Canadians see their military and the relative strength it carries?  Is there anything else that could be behind this new line of thinking?


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## Spanky (3 Mar 2009)

I think that the heightened awareness of things military has resulted in the change.  Russian "Bears" pushing the airspace envelope with CF18s responding, the issues regarding military spending, and the Arctic, and of course Afghanistan have all been in the news lately.
Just curious though.  Do the students see Canada being a growing military power a good thing or something that should be protested?  I wonder if this is a widespread trend or just among students who are more aware as indicated by their interest in taking courses in Canadian military history.


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## TimBit (3 Mar 2009)

Yo ltmaverick. Very interesting topic...

In my view, and I could be wrong, "military power" is intrinsically linked to capability; has our capability increased? Yes, but somewhat marginally. Less than 20% increase in staff, some new choppers, a few new howitzers, "new" tanks, marginal purchases of new vehicles. I think what has changed more is the will to use, the will to exert, which has trickled down to the ranks under the form of a renewed professionalism and institutional pride, all of which could outwardly give the impression of "power".

Spanky add good points. But I think some of the issues mentionned here play nicely into that analytical trap (the name of which I forget), that tends to see otherwise unrelated factors as confirmation of one's own hypothesis, i.e. increase in power. Specifically I am talking about the Cf-18/Bear thingy, which has been a game both sides like to play (let's admit it) for 60 years, but just now happens to be publicly brandied about and thus seen to fit nicely in that "renewed power" scheme.

In the end though, I believe that even our will to use is in the spirits of the time more than an autonomous desire to increase capability and power. I mean let's face it: while some minor players deployed to Irak (Estonia and Georgia) clearly with a view to renewed military assertiveness, others players in Irak (i.e. Spain) or Germany (i.e. France and Germany) had their arm twisted before they deployed but eventually did, under constraint of alliances but also because it is the spirit of the time, i.e. war on terror.

Now, as long as the students don't rush and buy Samuel Huntington's Clash of Civilizations and _blindly_ read the final civilization conflict into it (it clearly seems it is one, but his is not the almighty theory) we'll be fine...  

My two cents


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## ex-Sup (3 Mar 2009)

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> In the meantime, any thoughts?  Do you think that the mission in Afghanistan is somehow changing the way Canadians see their military and the relative strength it carries?  Is there anything else that could be behind this new line of thinking?


Maybe they have good teachers in high school  ;D

Seriously though, I think that your conclusions are correct. It's probably the fact that the military has been in the news and they are hearing our combat mission and the new equipment we've purchased in recent years.
Hmmm, I'll see what I can find out. I have some astute Gr.10's and Gr.12's this morning....I'll see what they have to say and report back.


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## reccecrewman (3 Mar 2009)

Other factors could well be playing into their opinions and thoughts as well. Those recruiting ads have been bombarding the television and radio for years now. Words like "combat" and "war" are being used on the news regularly. That term "peacekeeping" is slipping to the outer periphery when it comes to describing Canadian troops and what they do. Perhaps... and most pertinent, although we'll never know this for sure..... is suppertime conversation with mom and dad. Suppertime was always a time in my family (and many others) for discussion on things going on in the world. Whether mom and pop are for this war or against it, it doesn't matter, if it is a topic that hits the supper table, young minds will be coming to grips that the Canadian military IS fighting an aggressive war and accordingly, they will begin to view their military has one of growing strength.


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## ArmyRick (3 Mar 2009)

I think maybe this could be a good thing. Young Canadians will finally understand that it is good to deploy your military in the interest of peace (in the form of peacekeeping or in this case, fighting an oppressive group like taliban). In some instances, the missions are probably viewed as "clean" such as SFOR in Bosnia. Other missions require us to get "our hands dirty" like Afghanistan.

That is the reality of it in my view. Some people craved the "clean" missions only that they thought made us look so noble and politically correct. But at thend of the day, we are more than show poodles, have to show we are damn good dogs with a mean bite when required.


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## Snakedoc (3 Mar 2009)

I do think there may be more of a shift in the Canadian public but I think the fact that it is a military history class introduces an inherent bias into the way the papers are written and maybe amplifies this more.


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## ltmaverick25 (3 Mar 2009)

Spanky said:
			
		

> I think that the heightened awareness of things military has resulted in the change.  Russian "Bears" pushing the airspace envelope with CF18s responding, the issues regarding military spending, and the Arctic, and of course Afghanistan have all been in the news lately.
> Just curious though.  Do the students see Canada being a growing military power a good thing or something that should be protested?  I wonder if this is a widespread trend or just among students who are more aware as indicated by their interest in taking courses in Canadian military history.



Based solely on the papers I saw, I would say that its either a neutral feeling, or perhaps slightly to the positive.  Seemed more rather a statement of fact from their perception then a statement of evaluation.


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## ltmaverick25 (3 Mar 2009)

ex-Sup said:
			
		

> Maybe they have good teachers in high school  ;D
> 
> Seriously though, I think that your conclusions are correct. It's probably the fact that the military has been in the news and they are hearing our combat mission and the new equipment we've purchased in recent years.
> Hmmm, I'll see what I can find out. I have some astute Gr.10's and Gr.12's this morning....I'll see what they have to say and report back.



That would be excellent, looking forward to it.


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## ex-Sup (3 Mar 2009)

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> That would be excellent, looking forward to it.


Sorry   The lesson took too long and I didn't have time today. I'll try and remember to do it tomorrow.


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## McG (3 Mar 2009)

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> The short of it is, the majority of the students felt that Canada was a growing military power.


I'd be interested to hear some of the arguments made in support of this theory.  What are the precieved metrics by which this growth in power has been measured?


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## ltmaverick25 (3 Mar 2009)

They havent analyzed our military power in any kind of depth.  I would more characterize it as a general accepted state of being.

These papers are for the most part on topics relating to the first world war.  Its in the conclusions where the students will drift from their topic into current day activities.  This is where I am finding statements like "If it wasnt for our position in X conflict, Canada would not be the military power that it is today"  And thats about all were getting there.

We are going to ask them what they think of this and have a discussion about it in class as well, but the papers themselves werent about today, they were about yesturday, and then draw conclusions about today.


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## reccecrewman (3 Mar 2009)

Well, we are where we are today due to our past. After WWII, we became the world's first "middle" power.  We have a history of consistently punching above our weight and continue to do so to this day. It isn't really a new thing with regards to our relative strength...... we just seem to be getting more of the spotlight these days. After years of cutbacks, the FRP and a string of peacekeepingm ops, we're emerging from those dark days and getting some recognition. I would be interested to hear feedback on these students thoughts though.


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## R. Jorgensen (3 Mar 2009)

Look at battles like the Gothic Line, Passchendale, Vimy Ridge, Ypres, Amiens. Canadians fought those battles because either no one else would or no one else could get it done (maybe not so much Amiens and Ypres).

But between that time and now, things went downhill (cuts in funding, Diefenbaker, Liberals [Yes, I went there, sorry]).

Military funding has increased with Stephen Harper in office, but not a whole lot more (apparently) which has given the DND/Minister of National Defence an opportunity to expand the military and upgrade while they have this increased budget, plus with the media covering the operations in A-stan and books like _Fifteen Days_; more and more people are becoming involved with the military.

My father has even said that Canada is a growing military power (he thinks Canada is a larger/higher military power than the USA based on training, not on population or equipment [which the USA relies on]) and he likes to see the Army (Armoured regiments especially [he was a Strathcona]) growing.

Sure, there are parts of the Canadian Forces that are messed up and need serious makeovers but draw a united diagram, combine all of CF history... this country's military is hella amazing.


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## Infanteer (3 Mar 2009)

TimBit said:
			
		

> Yo ltmaverick. Very interesting topic...
> 
> In my view, and I could be wrong, "military power" is intrinsically linked to capability;



I would say "assertiveness" is just as important as capability.


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## Armymedic (3 Mar 2009)

I would disagree with your base hypothesis. 

From my point of view, Canada is returning to the military middle power it used to be, and not growing from its position it once held pre-1990.

But a student's perception would be post 1990, so to them, I suppose they would consider our country to be growing as a military power.


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## Rahul (3 Mar 2009)

Yes I would say so. When I came to Canada my impression was of Canada being a soft power (and a leading producer of Canada Dry.. yeah go figure), very much like the Scandinavian countries. As time passed, I read more and more about the  country's military past and how badly it fumbled the ball in the post war era.  
(I am still a student, final year of Univ.)

In fact, only since the conservatives came to power, has my -perception- changed that Canada is becoming a greater military power. As a newcomer to Canada I had always found that the Canadian Forces were well respected, but badly neglected. 

Maybe its the increased coverage of the Afghan conflict, the recent purchases of badly needed equipment, the intensified recruitment advt. campaign or even coverage of our vast oil reserves, my -perception- is that Canada's military is becoming stronger after the 80s-90s. What actual military status it might achieve, only time will tell.

Thats my $ CAD .02 as a student.


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## Brockvegas (4 Mar 2009)

The way I see it, whether students view their perception of growth in Canadian military power as good or bad, I do appreciate teachers and professors like ltmaverick fostering open conversation on the topic. Worst case scenario, they learn something and form a solid opinion.


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## EuroCanuck (4 Mar 2009)

Back in Grade 12 history class, we spent nearly a month on Canada's roll in WWI and Rwanda, including writing essays on Vimy Ridge and Ypres. I'd bet now you couldn't convince a single student from that class that Canada was an insignificant military power then or now.
Maybe because of the war in Afghanistan Canada is deeply involved in, history teachers are placing more emphasise on Canada's military power, capabilities and significance now than before.


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## ltmaverick25 (4 Mar 2009)

This is some good feedback, I would be interested in hearing from more students and or civilians on this matter.  My class is weekly on wed nights.  So I wont be able to report back what the students had to say until then.


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## Antoine (4 Mar 2009)

It seems to me (still civilian for now) that media (CBC, Radio-Canada and left-wing friendly papers) were talking about CF shifting from defensive and peacekeeping forces to a more offensive one in the past ten years. I don't pretend anything here as I am completely new in the field. However, if it is a common feeling shared among civilians, do they associate a more offensive CF with Canada as a growing military power? How do younger Canadians (20-30 years old) see the military compare to the older (30 years and +) with the end of the cold war and the start of 21st century ? Anyway, sorry about that, I'm asking more questions than I answer to any of them, scientific bad habit!
Cheers


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## len173 (4 Mar 2009)

Well, I am a university student, and a civillian (although in the process of joining the reserves). I would say it's likely that your students are a bit biased, given they are in this course. I have heard alot of talk about our changing role, but it's usually stated as "arms build up" and "now were peace making" with a very negative connotation. People have his fairy tale idea of blue berets saving the world, and that has been blown to pieces by Afghanistan. But I don't find that people are learning from this, they just have their own made up version of Canadian history and believe we are straying from our roots.

At the same time, my view is biased, because most of this comes from a university setting, which tends to be very left leaning, so it's not a diverse sample of people.

I would be very happy if I was wrong, and people were starting to get the idea that we have more capabilities than peacekeeping, and we need a solid budget, equipment and training to sustain that.


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## Antoine (4 Mar 2009)

Yup, my personal opinion on the matter goes 110% with len173, and I'am often disappointed about how the medias, specially the French CBC analyze currently the Canadian military. However, I don't want to divert the subject of the present thread.

It is late here, good night to all Westcoaster


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## reccecrewman (4 Mar 2009)

SFB,

Could you clarify whose base hypothesis you disagree with?


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## ex-Sup (4 Mar 2009)

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> This is some good feedback, I would be interested in hearing from more students and or civilians on this matter.  My class is weekly on wed nights.  So I wont be able to report back what the students had to say until then.


Alright, so I had some time to do this today with my Gr.12 World History class. I actually made up a quiz and asked them to complete it anonymously. These are the questions I asked:
1. Do you think of Canada as a military power? Why or why not?
2. What do you think the general public's preception of this is?
3. Do you think Canada's military power has increased or decreased in recent years?
4. Do you think that our participation in Afghanistan has changed people's perception?
5. Do you think that this is a good or bad thing?
Since they've just completed it, I haven't had time to collate the data; I'll try to do that this afternoon. But from a quick look, the answer to the principal question is 24% yes, 66% no (21 students).
Some rather interesting answers of the questions, especially in regards to the current mission and how they perceive our military. More to follow.


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## ex-Sup (4 Mar 2009)

Okay, so here's some numbers. Now, just a disclaimer before I start. After reading through the responses, I realized in retrospect that some of the questions are a bit convoluted. The sample size was 21 students.
1. Do you think of Canada as a military power? Why or why not?
Yes=24%, No=76%
2. What do you think the general public's preception of this is?
Yes=24%, No=66%, Don't Know=10%
3. Do you think Canada's military power has increased or decreased in recent years?
Increased=38%, Decreased=43%, Same=5%, Don't Know=14%
4. Do you think that our participation in Afghanistan has changed people's perception?
Yes=48%, No=38%, Don't Know=14%
5. Do you think that this is a good or bad thing?
Good=43%, Bad=43%, Undecided=14%

I'm actually curious to talk to them about it, based on some of the responses. It's obvious that a lot of them are not in tune with what is going on. A lot used the comment about "peacekeepers" (which drove me crazy as I read them). If anyone is interested, I can post some of the comments.
Hope this helps.


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## Greymatters (4 Mar 2009)

ex-Sup said:
			
		

> Okay, so here's some numbers...
> 
> It's obvious that a lot of them are not in tune with what is going on...



What seems more important to consider is that students, whether they are in high school or univeristy, believe what their instructors tell them about the military or what they read on blogs, and occasionally once in a while what their parents tell them.  Very few (from my own experience in talking with them) seek information for themselves and develop thir own opinion.

Perhaps an open discussion on the subject might provide amplification on what they answered to these questions?


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## ltmaverick25 (4 Mar 2009)

Id be interested in seeing some of the comments.  We just had a debrief on the papers in my class and got to hear what alot of our students had to say.  Later tonight when I get home ill add more detail.


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## ex-Sup (4 Mar 2009)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Perhaps an open discussion on the subject might provide amplification on what they answered to these questions?


That's the plan, but I'll have try to squeeze it in somewhere. This isn't a World Issues class (though I'll be passing it on to her in case she wants to use this in her class) so it isn't part of the curriculum. We just started the Enlightenment, so it doesn't mesh with 18th century philosphers  


			
				ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> Id be interested in seeing some of the comments.


I'll put something together


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## ex-Sup (4 Mar 2009)

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> Id be interested in seeing some of the comments.


Okay, so check the attached Word document. I've quoted selected answers for each question, and I've tried to keep them as original as possible ie. spelling and grammar. Please keep in mind that as previously mentioned, some of the questions were not particularly clear. A class discussion is definitely on the books!


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## Greymatters (4 Mar 2009)

ex-Sup said:
			
		

> Okay, so check the attached Word document...





			
				ex-Sup said:
			
		

> 1.	Do you think of Canada as a military power? Why or why not?



Hmmm, I don’t really see any changing viewpoints here. Some good answers, but: “follow the US military”; “ fighting someone else’s war”; “I consider us peacekeepers”; “we are all about peace, not war”.  This is pretty much parroting of common misconceptions of the military in Canada.  



			
				ex-Sup said:
			
		

> 2.	What do you think the general public’s perception of this is?



The phrase “fights for peace” seems to be the general theme here…



			
				ex-Sup said:
			
		

> 3.	Do you think that Canada’s military power has increased or decreased in recent years?



Why do some students feel compelled to mention Iraq?  Did they not understand the question?

“I believe that in recent years the military power of Canada has decreased. This is due in part to every politician who has sought a peace prize and decreased funding to the military.” 
- I love this one, even if its not completely true. I recommend giving this person an A+



			
				ex-Sup said:
			
		

> 4.	Do you think that our participation in Afghanistan has changed people’s perception?



“I think it doesn’t b/c most ppl don’t even know whats going on.”
I think this person is spending too much time on chat forums…

“Meh…don’t watch news.”
At least this person is honest about it…



			
				ex-Sup said:
			
		

> 5.	Do you think that this is a good thing or bad thing?


“I think that Canada’s role in Afghanistan is a bad thing because we’re only piggy backing the U.S. Harper’s government finds it necessary to involve a country who has no reason to be there while sacrificing lives.”
Horribly misinformed…

“Yes and no, loss of life is never good but because of Afghanistan’s instability and constant war it’s good we are trying to help”
There is still hope…


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## ballz (4 Mar 2009)

It was scary reading some of those answers... University students using internet lingo on their answers? This is why I always insist on producing the final product on group projects. I take everybody's piece and translate it to English. 

As for their answers.... a little too cliche for my liking. They've plagiarized their opinions from someone else who's probably less intelligent than them. 

This peacekeeping thing drives me nuts, more so than all the mentioning of Iraq and just doing what the US tells us to. Honestly, this is pure gold:
"I consider us peacekeepers, which I think is better. The closer we are to no military the closer we are to world peace."

He/She wants peacekeepers but wants no military. Seriously?!?! This reminds me of my friend's dad, a musician, who has absolutely CONDEMNED me for joining the CF, but has a song dedicated to Peacekeepers called "The Keeper's."


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## Greymatters (5 Mar 2009)

ballz said:
			
		

> It was scary reading some of those answers... University students using internet lingo on their answers? This
> "I consider us peacekeepers, which I think is better. The closer we are to no military the closer we are to world peace."



Anything that can be added here would be just preaching to the choir...


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## ltmaverick25 (5 Mar 2009)

Folks, that word document you just read arent the university students I was talking about, these are highschool students in a completely different class.  I was the one talking about the university sudents but also keep in mind that this is a Canadian military history class so their knowledge base is somewhat different then that of someone who has not taken this type of course or examined the material out of personal interest.

For my students, I did not hand out a paper based quiz, rather we just held a fire side chat of sorts to see what the students had to say.  I will try my best to paraphraze the answers I got.  Keep in mind I got a lot of answers as there are 130 people in the class, so I am mentioning larger consences here, not every answer I got.

I started the discussion off by saying that, the vast majority of you were using terms like "If it wasnt for X Canada would not be the power that it is today" ect... 

I mentioned to them that I found this facinating because it was my beleif that the vast majority of the public would flatly disagree with this.  Lets discuss...

Here is what I got.

-How can people think Canada is not a power.  Just look at the facts and our track record.  Wasnt it Canada that brought the British their first victory at during the Boer War, a fluke sure but still!  Wasnt it Canada that was known as Shock Troops in the Great War?  Wasnt there a guy that won an award for that in the papers a little while ago?  Didnt we have over 1 million people in uniform during the Second World War?  

Fast forward to more modern stuff, the facts that were presented were as follows...

-Didnt we bomb the crap out of the serbians in Kosovo?  Arent we doing more fighting then anyone else in Afghanistan?  Didnt we stop being global wimps after Sept 11th?

Again, I am paraphrazing their sentiments here...

When I asked them about Canada as a peacekeeping force...

-No, we arent peacekeepers, we just filled a task that nobody else could do, and now its a task that nobody can do, the world changed, and we changed with it.
-Yes we are still peacekeepers but we are pragmatic enough to understand that you cant peacekeep in a war zone
-yes we are still peacekeepers but only because of the myth, reality has yet to set in on society
- I wish that peacekeeping was still where Canada was, but, to peacekeep is to watch people die, nobody should ever do that

Should we stay in Afghanistan?

The vast majority of the students said yes.  When asked why, they were proud of the fact that Canada could finally make a difference again.

There was a loud minority that objected to this, felt it was an American war, and that we had no business being there.

I asked them if Canada should become more aggressive on the world scene.  The answers seemed to be evenly divided between yes and no.

But here is something I found really interesting.  A fierce debate broke out between two students.  One student insisted that we should not be getting involved in the rest of the world, that we shouldnt be trying to help people with our military, or stop others from causing harm.  He felt that the money spent on the military would be better spent on health care and job protection programs during harsh economic concerns.

The other student jumped all over this arguments, called the kid selfish and then quoted Churchill.  He said, "Sir Winston Churchill once said that ""All it takes for evil to endure is for good men to do nothing""  Are you a good man or not"?

The other student was speachless. 

At that point I brought an end to the debate and we got back on with the class.

Overall I felt the results were rather mixed, but in a much more positive direction then I would have otherwise thought.  I think as someone else said, this is a Canadian millitary history class, so were talking to kids that have spent the past semester learning all the facts about our military history, which makes them not a universal sample of the Canadian population.


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## ltmaverick25 (5 Mar 2009)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Anything that can be added here would be just preaching to the choir...



Indeed, but, as annoying as it is, I think its interesting to be able to know what a certain sample of our youth think on these matters.  I may start a second thread asking about what we can do as individual CF members to try and change public perception to be more in line with reality.


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## PanaEng (5 Mar 2009)

First off, great stuff, and it is great that you are doing it and I feel comforted by some of the statements that you paraphrased from your students - quoting Churchill  :nod:

Not sure how you come across to  your students - are your opinions on this matter made obvious to the students? Maybe this could salt or influence their thoughts.


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## PanaEng (5 Mar 2009)

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> Indeed, but, as annoying as it is, I think its interesting to be able to know what a certain sample of our youth think on these matters.  I may start a second thread asking about what we can do as individual CF members to try and change public perception to be more in line with reality.


I second that motion with both hands up!

chimo


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## ltmaverick25 (5 Mar 2009)

PanaEng said:
			
		

> First off, great stuff, and it is great that you are doing it and I feel comforted by some of the statements that you paraphrased from your students - quoting Churchill  :nod:
> 
> Not sure how you come across to  your students - are your opinions on this matter made obvious to the students? Maybe this could salt or influence their thoughts.



I dont try to present myself as unbiased, I dont think that is possible for me.  Instead what I do is try my best to present them with both arguments, or all 3 arguments assuming there is more then one.  I do let them know which school of thought I belong to though.  Some disagree with this profusely, but, I just dont think I would be very good at hiding/faking it.


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## SoldierInTheMaking (5 Mar 2009)

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> Indeed, but, as annoying as it is, I think its interesting to be able to know what a certain sample of our youth think on these matters.  I may start a second thread asking about what we can do as individual CF members to try and change public perception to be more in line with reality.




Well one thing I believe would give people a different perspective about our military and the Afghanistan mission would  have to be, instead of all the news broadcast's such as ctv, cbc, etc they should start talking about good things that are happening over there and not always about death and are soldiers getting injured, I mean people see that and no wonder their saying bring our soldiers home, because that's all they hear about....I no it's all for ratings and they think that's what people want to see and hear about but it's not, I can bet a large majority would rather here of the good things we're doing instead of death....I know I do. 
Another thing I would say is more stories about Afghanistan like that one titled "Fighting Ghosts" I seen on some face book groups that some people that didn't believe in the mission and wanted our soldiers home watched it and it change their perspective about what were doing over there, and the changes we are making..... If people would just educate themselves a little bit more and these things could help, maybe they can see what exactly is going on and what we're doing over there, and see it and understand it better.


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## ballz (5 Mar 2009)

SoldierInTheMaking said:
			
		

> Well one thing I believe would give people a different perspective about our military and the Afghanistan mission would  have to be, instead of all the news broadcast's such as ctv, cbc, etc they should start talking about good things that are happening over there and not always about death and are soldiers getting injured, I mean people see that and no wonder their saying bring our soldiers home, because that's all they hear about....I no it's all for ratings and they think that's what people want to see and hear about but it's not, I can bet a large majority would rather here of the good things we're doing instead of death....I know I do.



Unfortunately (well.. fortunately) the military doesn't tell the media what to report. I think Canada could benefit from a right-wing media group just to combat all the left-wing media and that way the two forces combined could provide people that want ALL the facts with ALL the facts, but I'm not sure that's going to happen anytime soon.


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## Greymatters (5 Mar 2009)

SoldierInTheMaking said:
			
		

> Another thing I would say is more stories about Afghanistan like that one titled "Fighting Ghosts"...



This is the type of thing we should have been doing from the start of the deployment...


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## ex-Sup (5 Mar 2009)

ballz said:
			
		

> It was scary reading some of those answers... University students using internet lingo on their answers? This is why I always insist on producing the final product on group projects. I take everybody's piece and translate it to English.
> As for their answers.... a little too cliche for my liking. They've plagiarized their opinions from someone else who's probably less intelligent than them.
> This peacekeeping thing drives me nuts, more so than all the mentioning of Iraq and just doing what the US tells us to. Honestly, this is pure gold:
> "I consider us peacekeepers, which I think is better. The closer we are to no military the closer we are to world peace."
> He/She wants peacekeepers but wants no military. Seriously?!?! This reminds me of my friend's dad, a musician, who has absolutely CONDEMNED me for joining the CF, but has a song dedicated to Peacekeepers called "The Keeper's."


For clarification (as was mentioned already), this was taken from my Gr.12 history class. These were totally off the cuff comments; we've never spoken of this in class (as it has nothing to do with our curriculum). As I mentioned, I will be making time for some discussion next week as I'd like to know where they are coming from. I'll report back.


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## ex-Sup (5 Mar 2009)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> The phrase “fights for peace” seems to be the general theme here…


Yes, this was mentioned quite a bit (since I only included some selected answers). It was actually interesting to read some of the answers and see contradictory statements ie. "we're peacekeepers", but in the next question "we fight for peace." This is why (even though it has nothing to do with the course) I'm curious to hear what they have to say about all of this.


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## Rahul (5 Mar 2009)

> The phrase “fights for peace” seems to be the general theme here…



I think that a lot of youth have the wrong opinion that Canada is a top UN peacekeeper country. Yes, peacekeeping was a Canadian idea, but in the last 2 decades countries like Bangladesh have dwarfed Canadian contributions. We have only made token contributions to UN missions and never more than 80-100 personnel on a single mission. Except in Afghanistan, we just don't "peacekeep" anymore. 

What is sadly lost is the acknowledgement of the military heritage of the pre war era. Also, we have the wrong perception that if we remain isolated no one will target us. Sad to say, we will be targetted and on that day will a strong CF be required. This is not just my perception, a lot of other people have it too, especially people in the Executive Security business. 

In fact, one of my professors'  (served in the US marines I think, he's Canadian) and his friend, ex Royal Marine and SAS (He runs a very exclusive outfit) often talked about this in guest lectures.


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## ex-Sup (10 Mar 2009)

ex-Sup said:
			
		

> This is why (even though it has nothing to do with the course) I'm curious to hear what they have to say about all of this.


So I made time to talk about this today and...nothing! NOTHING!
Nobody wanted to talk...period (despite the fact that some couldn't shut up during the lesson). They wanted me to read back the responses to the first question, since they said they couldn't? remember what they wrote. So I did that and I commented as I went along, but it didn't get anywhere. I spent some time talking about the whole peacekeeping thing, since many of them mentioned that we weren't a military power, but peacekeepers. But even after that nobody wanted to talk. So here's a couple theories:
1. They don't give a sh^t (apathy is huge around here).
2. What they wrote was bullsh*t.
3. I "enlightened" them to what really goes on and they're all informed experts.
Since I highly doubt #3 happened; I'm good, but not that good...miracles are Jesus' dept  ;D (Catholic school joke). That brings me back to 1 or 2, and based on my experience, it's probably #1. If it doesn't have anything to do with their ipod/cellphone, booze, drugs, why everyone treats them like crap, who's copulating with who or what's happening on Friday night, they probably don't care.
So in the end, my Gr.12's could care less and probably just regurgitate what they hear in the MSM. This is best summarized by the comment someone wrote on their quiz "Canada has a military?" which everyone thought was quite humorous. 
I tried


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## Bruce Monkhouse (10 Mar 2009)

ex-Sup said:
			
		

> I tried



Its all one can do,...thanks.


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## kratz (10 Mar 2009)

It's disappointing to hear the result ex-Sup. I was looking forward to hearing how it went.

Thank you for trying.


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## ltmaverick25 (10 Mar 2009)

If its any consolation, the students in my first year university class are far more engaged.  I find myself in the opposite situation of having to limit class discussion time so we can carry on with the planned lectures.

I think the reality is, alot of students really only start to give a crap about whats going on around them when they hit university, but again, im teaching a class of over 130 students and its a Canadian military history class, so totally different audience.


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## SoldierInTheMaking (10 Mar 2009)

I'd have to agree with you ltmaverick25, people in high school these days only care about what there doing after school, when school ends etc.

If that was me in that class I would be right on this topic, giving actual answers, and backing it up with loads of information. Even if I were the only one doing so, maybe I would educate others with my answers, well those who we're willing to listen.


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## Antoine (11 Mar 2009)

I'am going to do my home work, educate myself on CF and develop good arguments in favor of CF, specially that I'am at university too.


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## ltmaverick25 (11 Mar 2009)

Antoine said:
			
		

> I'am going to do my home work, educate myself on CF and develop good arguments in favor of CF, specially that I'am at university too.



One down, several more million to go!

But seriously, good for you for going out of your way to inform yourself.  Although I caution you.  The more informed you get, the more aggrevated you will become about the lack of knowledge among your peers!


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## Antoine (11 Mar 2009)

Specially in my field where people are smarts on scientific thinking but lack of humanities and arts knowledge. Don't get me wrong, I include myself in the geek community and I should read more on military, foreign politics and so on.

Back on topic, your thread is inspiring for us (student, TA or prof,...) to inform positively people on CF, but I don't want to be out of my lane by doing so too extensively for now.

I hope it won't be out of topic, but I'am not convinced that Combat School show and similar are opening the eyes of 'intelligentsia', but may be it is not the purpose of those shows. 

So what is happening, where does the university community get their info? I can't say the proportion of 'educated' (no offense to anyone) people that are well informed on the Canadian military power.

I have an interview for MARS Res tomorrow, so, I'am going to finish some reading on the trade.

Bonne soiree


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## ex-Sup (11 Mar 2009)

Well, since 25cm of snow isn't enough to close the school, I have lots of time to write a response (yes, all the buses are cancelled, but the school is open...I have 3 kids in period 1  ).
Yes, I am disappointed in their lack of willingness to discuss the topic, but I guess in retrospect it was a stretch. As I mentioned already, this is a World History class and the curriculum has nothing to do with the issue.
I know I went on a little rant about the whole apathy thing, which I would imagine is true in some cases, but I can't say that for all of them. I don't know why they didn't want to talk about it; I think it had probably more to do with the fact that their teacher is a former reservist and a strong supporter of the military. They did ask me what my position was, which I did tell them, but I was also clear that my job is not to tell them what to think; they need to formulate their own opinions. Maybe they were intimidated getting into a discussion about it. They did listen attentively when I explained the whole issue around "peacekeeping," but that's where it ended.
I did pass on the quizzes to the World Issues teacher in case she wanted to discuss the issue, which I think she might.There are some kids in my class taking World Issues, so maybe something might happen there.
Some of these kids are very socially aware, and yes I think that more of it comes out in university, but they are quite capable of discussing issues that they feel matters. I would imagine that more discussions will take place in a class devoted to military history since there would be more of a common interest.
Oh well, it was worth a shot.


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