# Ramschaufelpanzer Panther (Panther Tank with dozer attachment)



## Cloud Cover (13 Nov 2005)

Anybody got a pic of one, or for that matter a Stug equipped with same? 

Cheers


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## larry Strong (13 Nov 2005)

Cant say that I have ever heard or seen evidence of them existing. it would have to be a field mod, as neither of those AFV's were built with a dozer blade. the closest would be the Bergpanther with a spade on the rear, to serve as a brake


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## Cloud Cover (13 Nov 2005)

What is your opinion of the accuracy of the information on the achtungpanzer site?
Ramschaufelpanzer Panther: look down about half way, under "conversions" - http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz4.htm

As far as the Panther goes, I don't think this was a factory attachment, more like a field conversion.     

On the Stug: have learned this was a dozer blade fitted to a few for the purposes of pushing rubble etc. into piles for concealment and protection- may have also been a field mod.


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## pbi (13 Nov 2005)

This raises an interesting point. I have never, ever, seen any photos that suggested that the Germans had any heavy engineering equipment such as we enjoyed in the Allied forces (heavy dozers, motorized cranes, dumptrucks, scrapers, compressor drills, etc). Does anybody know anything more about the German combat engineering capability?

Cheers


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## Michael Dorosh (13 Nov 2005)

pbi said:
			
		

> This raises an interesting point. I have never, ever, seen any photos that suggested that the Germans had any heavy engineering equipment such as we enjoyed in the Allied forces (heavy dozers, motorized cranes, dumptrucks, scrapers, compressor drills, etc). Does anybody know anything more about the German combat engineering capability?
> 
> Cheers



Heavy construction projects were done by the Todt Organization (slave labour) no?  Just a WAG, of course.  They may have had such - I am sure the boys of the various Propaganda Kompanien were too busy taking pictures of heroic sacrifice at the front to bother with stuff like dump trucks.  Sort of like Star Trek - ever seen a picture of a Klingon trash collector?  I mean, they had to have them, but how much casting against type would that be? 

Ken Bell had an intersting picture in one of his books of a Panther chassis turned into a crane, but this was well after the war, in a conversion done by French civilians.

In all honesty though, my guess would be that heavy construction projects were indeed done by civilian forces (either with civilian German equipment, or stuff captured from the conquered territories, or both).  Don't forget, it was the Germans who had Beamte (civilian administrators) throughout their forces long after the British/Commonwealth got rid of the commisaries...I think the closest we had were the YMCA, Legion and Salvation Army officers.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_Todt


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## larry Strong (13 Nov 2005)

This is definitely interesting, I have never seen a photo or heard mention of them. I googled and there is some out there if you can read Russian, Most of what I saw was rehashed Actungpanzer info. The french used the Panther as an MBT in to the middle 50's so they may have built an ARV version.

Beamte officials were serving members of the Wehrmacht and not civilians. Had their own waffenfarbe and rank insignia.


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## Cloud Cover (13 Nov 2005)

Well, I can't find it now, but the other day I had a look at some video's on Google and there was a Panther with a dozer blade- it was a winter scene with the tank sitting by a burning house and the crew were standing beside it, having coffee or something.   They just finished plowing a bunch of rubble, snow etc. into huge pile. The attachment for the dozer blade was inboard of the chassis- thats all I could make out.   

German combat engineers had to have had some specialized armoured equipment given the number of assaults over rivers they likely made under fire in the summer advances on the eastern front. 

Cheers.


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## Michael Dorosh (13 Nov 2005)

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> Beamte officials were serving members of the Wehrmacht and not civilians. Had their own waffenfarbe and rank insignia.



I probably spoke too soon; they wore military uniform but had no powers of command; an interesting bunch.  From www.deutschesoldten.com:

[/quote]

Most officials (called Beamten) ranked equivalent to officers; there were some with equivalent Unteroffiziere mit Portepee (Senior NCO) ranks.  They were members of the Armed Forces according to the Law of Land Warfare, but were not "soldiers" by the German definition.  As officials, their authority extended only to their specialty field -- unlike soldiers, whose authority extends to anyone whom the individual outranks.  Beamten could not hold command.  They were entitled to all the customs and courtesies associated with their rank/status, however.  In the social order of the day, being an officer was the peak of the pyramid, if you couldn't be a regular officer, being a reserve officer was next best, and a very close approximation of that would have been appointment as an official.  In addition to those performing personnel, supply, and logistics functions, army chaplains, doctors, bandmasters and veterinarians were also officials, although their uniforms differed significantly from those of the other officials in being basically those of active officers with distinguishing insignia.

The main difference between officer and official status depended much on education.  Officials were by no means lesser-educated officers -- many had university degrees (which few officers did) -- but they did not meet the professional education/training requirements for appointment as officers or soldiers.  Most officials tended to remain such although if the military education qualifications were met, appointment as an officer or soldier could be made.  In 1944 the Germans began to laterally appoint all officials to regular officer ranks; how far this program went is conjectural since it was begun so late.  Those taken over wore regular officer uniforms.  Several new "branches", with corresponding branch colours and insignia, were created to accommodate these individuals.   Many officials, by the way, were Zwoelfender ("Twelvers" -- from the 12-year service requirement), retirees out of the Reichsheer (1919-1935).  One of the Reichsheer's  member benefits had been retraining during the 12th year of service in a civilian career -- one of the more attractive options was appointment to the Beamtenschule, a training school for government officials which allowed many to come back into the army as civilian administrators. 

It is important to point out that not all German Army civilians were Beamten; many (including women) were hired on the Civil Service scale and served in administrative and clerical positions; basically, they were civilian employees.   Women could not serve as officials.)[/quote]


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## redleafjumper (13 Nov 2005)

The Arms and Armour book "Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two, the complete illustrated directory of German battle tanks armoured cars, self-propelled guns and semi-tracked vehicles 1933-1945"  by Peter Chamberlain and Hilary Doyle does not list a panther with a dozer blade.  If such a thing existed it must have been very rare, if not a one-off field expedient vehicle.  Perhaps the vehicle in the video is something else other than a panther.  This thorough work does have good photos and information on Panzerfahre (tracked amphibious armoured ferry) Infanterie Sturmsteg auf Fahrgestell Panzerkampfwagen IV (tracked assault bridge), Bruckenlegers (Bridge Layers) as well as all other war-time German armour including experimental types, complete with numbers produced of each type and variants.  There are some vehicles with cranes (mostly for loading ammunition) and various other specialized equipment, some clearly designed for river crossing efforts.


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## Gobsmacked (13 Nov 2005)

Panzer Porn  (drool)

http://www.sdkfz.com/site/news/070205_firstdrive_jag.php

Refurbished Jagdpanther - isn't she lovely?   8)

Panther/Jagdpanther - arguably the most lethal/beautiful  tank/TD combo of WWII.


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## Kat Stevens (13 Nov 2005)

Oh, my... wrap 'er up, I'll take it, and 2 more just like it....


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## larry Strong (13 Nov 2005)

As much as i hate pulling wrenches, it would be interesting to be on one of those restoration projects.

Also all the manufacturers had technicians serve with the mechanized units right in the front line's, especially when new tanks series came out.


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## Kat Stevens (13 Nov 2005)

When we went over to Germany for submergence ops with the BW's Dachs in the 90's sometime, there were 2 MaK guys that were part of Panzer Pionier Lehrkompanie (sp?) 90 s maintenance section.  I was told it was common practice to have factory dudes in the larger units maint sect... So it's still going on


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## larry Strong (13 Nov 2005)

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> German combat engineers had to have had some specialized armoured equipment given the number of assaults over rivers they likely made under fire in the summer advances on the eastern front.
> 
> Cheers.



The only one that comes to mind is a bridge on the Mk lV chassis, I have some photo's in a book somewhere and will dig it up when time permits ( work 12 hr shifts with a 2 hr round trip commute  )

As to bridging, even the Pz Div's were stuck with 1940's issue bridging equiptment and rafts to cross with. IIRC training doctrine emphasised fords etc,

Not a Cbt Eng though I have a Int Manual from the war that lists all the different bridge types available to the Wehrmacht, if you are interested.


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## Michael Dorosh (14 Nov 2005)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> When we went over to Germany for submergence ops with the BW's Dachs in the 90's sometime, there were 2 MaK guys that were part of Panzer Pionier Lehrkompanie (sp?) 90 s maintenance section.  I was told it was common practice to have factory dudes in the larger units maint sect... So it's still going on



Canada tried that too; unfortunately after the first half dozen lynchings of White Western Star employees by LSVW drivers, the practice quietly stopped...


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## Kat Stevens (14 Nov 2005)

The only reason the Western Star guys were in maint tp in 1 CER was to keep up with all the mods that needed to be done, virtually on arrival.  Heavy on the brake jobs, and eye removing spare tire carriers. Ah, Canadian automotive technology at it's finest.

Hijack ends, back to obscure armour


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## McG (14 Nov 2005)

The leopard series of tanks were built partially from corporate knowledge that was still resident in German industry from the Tiger & Panther.  Was there no forrunner to the Badger/Pioneerpanzer?


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## redleafjumper (14 Nov 2005)

There were the various bergepanzers on the chassis of panzerkampfwagon III, IV, V, and even the Tiger II.  These are primarily designed to be armoured recovery vehicles with the capability of towing damaged armoured vehicles.  The book I mentioned earlier has good photos and specifications for these vehicles.
As for other engineering types, the German army also operated several flammpanzer vehicles with various flamethrowers mounted on tank and APC chassis.


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## larry Strong (15 Nov 2005)

Ok found one. This is the only one of all the armour vehicle's that I know of that was used in this fashion

PzKpfw lV w/ Bridge


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## redleafjumper (15 Nov 2005)

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> Ok found one. This is the only one of all the armour vehicle's that I know of that was used in this fashion
> 
> PzKpfw lV w/ Bridge



That's the Bruckenlager IV, Krupp version.  There is also a Magrius version.  Photos of both are on page 368 (plate 364 is the one Larry posted) and 369 of the Encylopedia of German Tanks of World War Two.  The


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## larry Strong (15 Nov 2005)

Cool  What was "the Magrius" a manufacturer or a chassis for one/


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## redleafjumper (16 Nov 2005)

I understand the Magrius version to be a different manufacturer with a slightly different design.  The chassis is the same Pz iV chassis.


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## pbi (16 Nov 2005)

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> Cool  What was "the Magrius" a manufacturer or a chassis for one/



It is actually "Magirus" not "Magrius", and it is a separate manufacturer. This company was well known before WWII for production of heavy vehicles such as cargo trucks and fire apparatus.

Cheers


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