# Lieutenant Pronunciation



## help needed (29 Apr 2001)

Can someone pls help me and explain why "lieutenant" is pronounced "leftenant"?


----------



## Bloggins (30 Apr 2001)

Snipped from the online version of the OED (http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/oed/oed.html):

"Lieutenant: Fr. lieutenant, f. lieu place + tenant holding (see tenant); cf. locum tenens. The origin of the <beta>type of forms (which survives in the usual British pronunciation, though the spelling represents the <alpha>type) is difficult to explain; The hypothesis of a mere misinterpretation of the graphic form (u read as v), at first sight plausible, does not accord with the facts. In view of the rare OFr. form luef for lieu (with which cf. esp. the 15th c. Sc. forms luf-, lufftenand above) it seems likely that the labial glide at the end of OFr. lieu as the first element of a compound was sometimes apprehended by Englishmen as a v or f. Possibly some of the forms may be due to association with leave sb.1 or lief a."

There‘s a lot more in the listing itself if you want greater depth.


----------



## ender (30 Apr 2001)

Here‘s the story I heard, don‘t know wheither it‘s true or not.  There was some English prince with a speech impediment who kept pronoucing it leftenent, and so everybody followed him to be polite.  This could be American propaganda though.


----------



## RCA (5 May 2001)

Naw, its just beacuse there is no such thing as a "right"enent.

By the way whats the difference beween a recruit and a second leftenent: A recruit is dumb and knows it


----------



## Mud Crawler (12 May 2001)

probably because of teh difference between general accent and pronounciation in english and french.Let me remind you that 2 thirds of the english dictionnaries originate from french, from when England was invaded by France.


----------



## gunner56 (3 Jan 2005)

A number of years ago(while serving with 604 Sqn RCAIRCC),I was told that even the brits said "Lootenant".After a time of being LEFT BEHIND or LEFT OUT of BATTLE because of poor, or insufficient training; a group of j.o.'s decided to start calling themselves LEFTenants.
Aside from tradition,why do we continue this insulting practice?
I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts on this,as I've been wondering about the topic for many years,and only found out about this site in late DEC 04.
Thanks,and Happy New Year Y'all.


----------



## chrisf (3 Jan 2005)

Somone was pulling your leg.


----------



## gunner56 (3 Jan 2005)

Alrighty,then.So...how doyou derive the current pronunciation,when the word contains no F,or PH?


----------



## Michael Dorosh (3 Jan 2005)

gunner56 said:
			
		

> Alrighty,then.So...how doyou derive the current pronunciation,when the word contains no F,or PH?



It comes from the French.

Incidentally, LOB (Left Out of Battle) is, in fact, a Canadian military expression.  I believe it was first used in the First World War, and was a standard practice in WW II.  Infantry units would designate x number of personnel as LOB before each battle, so that a cadre would be left in case of a disaster.  If a platoon commander took his platoon in, sometimes his second in command would be LOB, or vice versa.  Even individual riflemen were sometimes LOB.  It did not have anything to do with poor training, in fact, it was more indicative of good planning...


----------



## chrisf (3 Jan 2005)

gunner56 said:
			
		

> Alrighty,then.So...how doyou derive the current pronunciation,when the word contains no F,or PH?



Why is it people always question Lieutenant, but never Colonel?


----------



## pbi (4 Jan 2005)

> Aside from tradition,why do we continue this insulting practice?



Well, it isn;t "insulting", really: it's the way we speak English in Canada. Do not try to figure out how/why sounds are made in English: it is quite impossible and pointless, but the language works. I have never heard that legend you brought up but I must say it sounds like rubbish. Cheers.


----------



## George Wallace (4 Jan 2005)

I suppose all those extra "u"s that we throw into our words, like labour, honour, colour, neighbour, etc. are insulting too.


GW


----------



## Michael OLeary (4 Jan 2005)

gunner56 said:
			
		

> Aside from tradition,why do we continue this insulting practice?



Assuming, of course, that the story has any substance and that you weren't simply fed a myth.


----------



## Michael Dorosh (4 Jan 2005)

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Why is it people always question Lieutenant, but never Colonel?



Not only did I question Harlan Sanders before he passed away, I'll have you know I frisked him as well.


----------



## pbi (4 Jan 2005)

OK: I hav thot abow this isu and I belev we hav to bild a nu langwij in lu of the on we hav now. It is tu shamful the wa we spek now. How thotles we ar to cari on insulting ourselvs. Wot du yu guys sa? Cheers.


----------



## George Wallace (4 Jan 2005)

Pbi

Taht sunods lkie an exlelnet ieda!  Witch weigh should wee go?  Sepll wrods worng, wtih olny the frist and lsat ltetres crorcet; oar two ewes similar sounding words inn lew of thee write won?

GW


----------



## gunner56 (4 Jan 2005)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I suppose all those extra "u"s that we throw into our words, like labour, honour, colour, neighbour, etc. are insulting too.
> 
> 
> GW


In spite of being born,and raised in Calgary by parents of Irish/English heritage,I prefer not to use the extra U's.BTW,the guy who first got me interested in Army Cadets is currently known as Lieutenant Colonel Peter Hauenstien,LDSH,and CoS,41 Brigade.I believe his rank is pronounced as "Leftenant Kernel".I,personally meant no insult,I was just trying to see if what I had been told was correct,or not. I however ,would be insulted if I was a Lieutenant,and found the rumor to be true.


----------



## chrisf (4 Jan 2005)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Not only did I question Harlan Sanders before he passed away, I'll have you know I frisked him as well.



Then you could likely have some valuble insight in my chicken thread, perhaps the missing link needed to sort out the egg as well...


----------



## Michael Dorosh (4 Jan 2005)

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Then you could likely have some valuble insight in my chicken thread, perhaps the missing link needed to sort out the egg as well...



He was not very forthcoming about the 16 herbs and spices, however, he did reveal that his "chickens" are actually sparrows.  No word on which came first, the chicken or the sparrow.


----------



## George Wallace (4 Jan 2005)

Oh I think we can now state that the Chicken came before the Sparrow and went the way of the DODO, which brings us full circle back to Officer Rank....... ;D

GW


----------



## Michael Dorosh (4 Jan 2005)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Oh I think we can now state that the Chicken came before the Sparrow and went the way of the DODO, which brings us full circle back to Officer Rank....... ;D
> 
> GW



I always think of them more as magpies; squawking loudly but having such lovely plumage....


----------



## Walt (4 Jan 2005)

Found this on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieutenant


The British pronunciation of lieutenant is prevalent during 14th and 15th centuries with the word being variously spelled as lieftenant, lyeftenant or luftenant. It may have originated from a mistaken reading of the 'u' as a 'v', lev-tenant eventually becoming lef-tenant. Some sources state that the original French word lieu had an alternative form spelt and pronounced lieuf, and that the modern British English form retains the former spelling and the latter pronunciation.

It has also been speculated that it may have come from a fanciful etymology which associated it with the verb 'to leave', as the lieutenant only took up his duties once his superior officer had 'left'.

Another theory comes from the fact that in typical propriety the person or persons standing to the rear-left of a gentleman held power and were typically those directly second to him. The person or persons standing to the rear-right were considered to have no or less standing than those to the rear-left, such as aides, bodyguards, wives, etc., often holding this position for simple facility rather than societal importance. This tradition remains in military parades, with lieutenants standing to the rear-left of the commanding officer (when facing the advance.)


----------



## gunner56 (4 Jan 2005)

Thanks for all your help,folks. I guess we can safely discount the left behind story as fiction after all.


----------



## ctjj.stevenson (4 Jan 2005)

Hi everybody!

Here is the information that come from http://www.readyayeready.com/tradition/customs-of-the-navy/4-ranks.htm, and was also found in my Military Occupational Course manual. 



> Lieutenant is French in origin - (en) lieu tenant - and means holding a place or position for someone else, e.g. lieutenant-governor, acting for a governor. The Americans pronunciation 'loo-tenant' is closest to the French though our obsolescent naval pronunciation 'le-tenant' is close, whereas the army's 'LEF-tenant' seems a corruption of the worst sort. Lieutenants with over eight years in that rank were considered as a separate rank after 1877, the year the 'half-stripe' was introduced. Before World War I a lieutenant who held a command was called lieutenant and commander; in 1912 this was officially abbreviated to lieutenant-commander. In most branches promotion to this rank is automatic after eight years as a lieutenant, though regulations now provide for future promotions to that rank to be by selection.



Have a nice day!


----------



## HollywoodHitman (4 Jan 2005)

mi eenglees ees very gud. I lurn eet frum a buk. :dontpanic:


----------



## SprCForr (4 Jan 2005)

magpies! hee, hee that's good. ;D


----------



## Acorn (6 Jan 2005)

One story I heard was that Brit officers objected to being referred to as occupants of a lavatory.  >

Walt's explanation is probably the most logical though.

Acorn


----------



## McInnes (6 Jan 2005)

You don't like using the 'extra' U's and find lieutenant insulting? Well now, that is english. Color is not an english word. American-English yes, but we're not Americans now are we? They seemed to have changed a few things as I guess they tried to get away from the British as much as possible, I'm not very certain. I personally thing that who ever pronounces it loo-tenant, has been influenced far too much by american war movies.


----------



## Infanteer (6 Jan 2005)

I just say "Ell-Tee", like in "Tour of Duty"....


----------



## CaptPilk (6 Jan 2005)

I always thought that the British didn't want to be thought of as tenants of the loo (Loo being the head or porcelain goddess over in England), so they came up with the term of Left-tenant.

G!


----------



## Infanteer (6 Jan 2005)

Wow, you obviously didn't catch the same joke two posts up....


----------



## gunner56 (6 Jan 2005)

Yo,Aquilus! It's called freedom of speech(expression).That's something guaranteed in our constitution,but denied by our courts,my ex-wife,and some who respond to questions in these forums.Like I said,I was born and raised in Calgary,Ab,not Oxford ,England.


----------



## Infanteer (6 Jan 2005)

Thats Calgary, Republic of Alberta....


----------



## gunner56 (6 Jan 2005)

Attaway,Infanteer!!!Although,Sovereign Nation sometimes sounds appealing.


----------



## Michael Dorosh (6 Jan 2005)

gunner56 said:
			
		

> Attaway,Infanteer!!!Although,Sovereign Nation sometimes sounds appealing.



Until the oil runs out.  What then?


----------



## gunner56 (6 Jan 2005)

Then we invade Canada and make her back into the great nation she once was.

Wait a minute...isn't this digressing from the original topic,Lootenant?


----------



## McInnes (7 Jan 2005)

Calgary is still part of Canada last I heard  
Growing up in Canada compared to England is a moot point, Canadian English...
I wasn't trying to toy with your freedom of expression, you can speak any language you wish, however you are in Canada, so why not make the effort? yar.


----------



## George Wallace (7 Jan 2005)

I suppose we can just give him a big "Freddy" for Spelling.... ;D

GW


----------



## McInnes (7 Jan 2005)

I'm sure there's an award somewhere...


----------



## gunner56 (8 Jan 2005)

I like to sound like an individual,not a member of the Canadian adjunct of the BORG collective! I'm also not known for being politically correct. Nuff said,boys?


----------



## ctjj.stevenson (9 Jan 2005)

Aquilus said:
			
		

> You don't like using the 'extra' U's and find lieutenant insulting? Well now, that is english. Color is not an english word. American-English yes, but we're not Americans now are we? They seemed to have changed a few things as I guess they tried to get away from the British as much as possible, I'm not very certain. I personally thing that who ever pronounces it loo-tenant, has been influenced far too much by american war movies.



Actually, the subject was mentioned on the CBC programme _The Canadian Experience_, within the topic, Talking Canadian. I personnaly learned a lot from this episode.


----------



## Lt. Perkins (9 Feb 2005)

I apologize in advance if this has been discussed in the past, or whether the information is sitting right in front of me.  I was wondering what exactly is a "left-tennant"?  I've heard the term before on different shows/movies, and my cousin said back in the 80's he was a left-tennant in the CF and did a peacekeeping mission in Cyprus.  So does anyone know the answer? I'm just curious.


----------



## jmackenzie_15 (9 Feb 2005)

Its spelled lieutenant, pronounced differently than the yankees (loo-tenant), and its an officer type guy =p

Theres 2LT, the lowest rank in the officer chain, and then theres 1LT. They are usually platoon commanders or something to that extent in the infantry.


----------



## BKells (9 Feb 2005)

Lieutenant was always pronounced "left-tennant" by the British and of course since we speak English, we pronounce it the same. The yanks changed it to suit their whim, along with the spelling of a lot of other english words.


----------



## Glorified Ape (9 Feb 2005)

I heard the "left" pronunciation was used because of English slang's designation of "loo" as a toilet. Hence a "loo-tenant" would be a tenant of the bathroom. Of course, this could all be BS but I thought it was an interesting explanation.


----------



## chriscalow (9 Feb 2005)

I remember hearing once that we say "Left" because the "Leiu" sounded too french for the British way back when.  Probably not true, but hey.


----------



## Lt. Perkins (9 Feb 2005)

Okay I understand now.  I know what a "lieutennant" is so I understand everything.  Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## Gunnar (17 Feb 2005)

It's always amusing to have a Star Trek conversation and insist on saying "Left-tenant" Whorf, or "Left-tenant" Commander Data.  Drives people nuts.


----------



## Spr.Earl (18 Feb 2005)

BKells said:
			
		

> Lieutenant was always pronounced "left-tennant" by the British and of course since we speak English, we pronounce it the same. The yanks changed it to suit their whim, along with the spelling of a lot of other english words.


Actually we in Canada officially speak and write Oxford English as the Military does also,if in doubt go into your Orderly Room and ask for the dictionary and you will find it is the Canadian version of the Oxford Dictionary with out the spelling of tyer vs tire.


----------



## Mr. St-Cyr (25 Nov 2006)

Good evening gents,

I would like to know if it is still proper in the Canadian Army to pronounce it "leftenant" or if some people use the American pronunciation "lootenant."  I myself use "leftenant" but I do keep hearing "lootenant" popping up.

So please tell me, are both right?  Is "leftenant" preferred?

Thanks in advance,
Cheers!
Private Yohann St-Cyr


----------



## beach_bum (25 Nov 2006)

I have never heard it pronounced Lootenant in the CF.  That is an American thing.


----------



## navymich (25 Nov 2006)

What gets really confusing is when you call it "leftenant" in the Navy and "captain" in the army.  Complete different pronunciation!  ;D


----------



## Mr. St-Cyr (25 Nov 2006)

Haha!  Silly bugger!

Well, thank you for clarifying that.  I will keep on correcting people then!

Cheers!


----------



## Loachman (25 Nov 2006)

Mr. St-Cyr said:
			
		

> Private Yohann St-Cyr


Shouldn't that be pronounced "Joe-han"?


----------



## Mr. St-Cyr (25 Nov 2006)

Wrong, taken from German equivalent for John "Johann" prounced "Yohann."  My parents specifically named me Yohann for people to avoid making that specific error.  Pronouncing it "Joe-han" is as sinful as saying "lootenant."  

Nice try though.


----------



## Kunu (25 Nov 2006)

beach_bum said:
			
		

> I have never heard it pronounced Lootenant in the CF.  That is an American thing.



You know dude, the CF also conducts business in both official languages...  ;D


----------



## sigpig (25 Nov 2006)

I've found that most civilians, at least those with no contact with anyone in the military, will use the term lootenant because of the overpowering influence of the American media - ie, tv and movies. I would think most new people to the Canadian military would initially use lootenant because that is what they've heard before. So be gentle when correcting them, leftenant isn't exactly obvious from the spelling


----------



## aesop081 (25 Nov 2006)

Kilo Mike said:
			
		

> You know dude, the CF also conducts business in both official languages...  ;D



Even in French its not pronounced "lootenant"


----------



## navymich (25 Nov 2006)

cdnaviator said:
			
		

> Even in French its not pronounced "lootenant"



Don't get so high and mighty.  He means the other official language----Newf


----------



## Mike Baker (25 Nov 2006)

navymich said:
			
		

> Don't get so high and mighty.  He means the other official language----Newf


Yeah, we have a language in our own. Even sometimes we can't understand eachother


----------



## 3rd Horseman (25 Nov 2006)

The question with answer is not complete without the reason. {Left - tenant} if I have been taught correctly is the title given to the tenant of the land most senior and living to the left of the land lord. The land lord rasies a Coy to fight for the king and he raises that Coy from the tenants of his land. Thus the best land and most senior person on the land as a tenant is the person living next to the lord.


----------



## vonGarvin (25 Nov 2006)

navymich said:
			
		

> What gets really confusing is when you call it "leftenant" in the Navy and "captain" in the army.  Complete different pronunciation!  ;D


With the Navy being the senior service, I think it should be called "Captain Army" 


HAHAHAHA


----------



## vonGarvin (25 Nov 2006)

3rd Horseman said:
			
		

> The question with answer is not complete without the reason. {Left - tenant} if I have been taught correctly is the title given to the tenant of the land most senior and living to the left of the land lord. The land lord rasies a Coy to fight for the king and he raises that Coy from the tenants of his land. Thus the best land and most senior person on the land as a tenant is the person living next to the lord.


That may be the reason why it is pronounced (in english, I don't know about Newf...) as "Lef-tenant".  Having said that, Lieutenant comes from the french, roughly "place holder" I believe.  The "Captain" was the captain of the company, and the lieutenant took over from him in his absence.  The Colonel commanded the regiment, whereas a lietenant colonel took over from him in his absence.
Note that there is also a paralell for the term "major".  A captain had a lieutenant and a sergeant-major.  A Colonel had a lieutenant colonel and a major.  A General had a lieutenant general and a major general.  THAT is why "Major General" is lower in rank than "Lieutenant General".
Also remember that historically, a Brigadier was NOT a General rank.  I don't know when it became "Brigadier General".


----------



## krustyrl (25 Nov 2006)

Very interesting.........I just keep on learning.!


----------



## navymich (25 Nov 2006)

krustyrl said:
			
		

> Very interesting.........I just keep on learning.!



Learning what?  That Von {insert whatever his current name is here} is full of too much UFI??  ;D

Just kidding, it is interesting to learn things like this, especially when someone else does the research!


----------



## vonGarvin (25 Nov 2006)

Actually, I am full of UFI.  It just seems that when I hear something, I never lose it.  Some day my brain will explode when I suddenly remember that two Dicks played Darrin on Bewitched!


----------



## navymich (25 Nov 2006)

Hearing something is good, but how about writing, or even maybe....spelling??   :


----------



## Zartan (25 Nov 2006)

I heard that in the good olde days it was improper to call an officer a "tender of the loo." Can't cite it though


----------



## vonGarvin (25 Nov 2006)

Zartan said:
			
		

> I heard that in the good olde days it was improper to call an officer a "tender of the loo." Can't cite it though




:rofl:


I doubt you could get away with that even now!


----------



## Kirkhill (25 Nov 2006)

3rd Horseman said:
			
		

> The question with answer is not complete without the reason. {Left - tenant} if I have been taught correctly is the title given to the tenant of the land most senior and living to the left of the land lord. The land lord rasies a Coy to fight for the king and he raises that Coy from the tenants of his land. Thus the best land and most senior person on the land as a tenant is the person living next to the lord.




Lieutenant (lyootenon in French) is pronounced Leftenant for exactly the same reason that Cholmondeley is pronounced Chumley, Beaulieu is pronounce Byooley and Saint John is pronounce Sinjin.  So that proper Englishmen would not be confused with those folks from the other side of the English Channel.  

As a properly schooled "Place Holder".


----------



## Michael OLeary (25 Nov 2006)

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lieutenant



> *[Middle English, deputy, from Old French  : lieu, lieu; see lieu + tenant, present participle of tenir, to hold (from Latin tenre. See ten- in Indo-European Roots).]*
> 
> 
> *  Word History*: What is the connection between a lieutenant governor and a lieutenant in the army? In the etymology of the word lieutenant, at least, the connection lies in their holding a place; that is, the word lieutenant is from an Old French compound made up of lieu, “place,” and tenant, “holding.” The word in Old French and the borrowed Middle English word lieutenant, first recorded near the end of the 14th century, referred to a person who acted for another as a deputy. This usage has survived, for example, in our term lieutenant governor, the deputy of the governor and the one who replaces the governor if need be. In military parlance lieutenant appears by itself as well as in compounds such as first lieutenant and second lieutenant, which muddy the water a bit, but the original notion of the word in military usage was that the officer it referred to ranked below the next one up and could replace him if need be. A lieutenant in the U.S. Army could thus step into the shoes of a captain.


----------



## Kirkhill (26 Nov 2006)

> A General had a lieutenant general and a major general.  THAT is why "Major General" is lower in rank than "Lieutenant General".



And actually the General was originally the Captain-General, meaning the Captain in general or overall command while the Lieutenant-general is the deputy or place holder general.  The Major general originally was the Serjeant Major general where a Serjeant was a servant, and the Serjeant Majeur was the Big Servant.

So in the beginning you had a company of men who kept company with each other and came from a district in the campagne or country and went into the campagne or field on campaign.

They were led by a head man or captain, from the same root as capital or decapitated.  The place holder stood in lieu of the head man when the captain wasn't available. The lieutenant was often a relative of the captain.   The Headman and his place holder were accompanied on campaign into the field by his trusted servants who were organized by his most trusted servant or major servant to train and organize the men under his command.

All these companies, headed by Captains were organised into armies.  The most favoured Captain in the army would be given that general command.

Armies marched in Columns, or Colonnes in french and the Colonnes were led by Colonels.

I love the opportunity to be pedantic.


----------



## the 48th regulator (26 Nov 2006)

What about elltee?  Anyone use that?

dileas

tess


----------



## Journeyman (26 Nov 2006)

Kilo Mike said:
			
		

> > beach_bum said:
> >
> >
> >
> ...



And I believe in this case, the correct pronounciation is "dudette"


----------



## Trooper Hale (27 Nov 2006)

Ah the invasion of the American Language! It just seeps into everything doesnt it? Even the way they pronounce things. But i'm not going to get into that.
Strange but i've actually heard the title "Lieutenant" pronounced a couple of different ways, "boss" is a popular one over here! 
Its a funny word but theres a certain romance and character in its pronounciation.

I cant fathom why you'd claim your being un PC and individual by saying lootenant. Not only does is show a whole smash of ignorance but its also disrespectful and rude. I'm intensly proud that i talk, write and act very differently to the people that i see on Yank tv. I'm an Australian, i'm british and i'm very proud that i say "Al-u-minium" instead of "A-luminum" or spell it "Colour" or "Honour" or anything down that line. 
Americans can never figure out why they never get invited to the commonwealth games...And wouldnt it be a very different world if they were still part of it?

Have a gooder,
Hales


----------

