# Police shoot, kill armed man outside Scarborough elementary school



## daftandbarmy (26 May 2022)

I actually cheered a little bit when I read that....

Police shoot, kill armed man outside Scarborough elementary school​
Toronto police have shot and killed an armed man following reports that he was seen carrying a rifle outside an elementary school in Scarborough’s Port Union area.

Officers received information of a man carrying a gun in the Maberley Crescent and Oxhorn Road area, near Lawrence Avenue East and Port Union Road, just before 1 p.m.

oronto Police Chief James Ramer said that responding officers were confronted by the individual, but wouldn’t detail what transpired. The Special Investigations Unit (SIU) has taken over the investigation.

In a brief statement, the SIU said two officers shot at the man, who was later pronounced dead at the scene.

The SIU is an independent government agency that investigates the conduct of police officials that may have resulted in death, serious injury, sexual assault and/or the discharge of a firearm at another person.

The police chief reiterated that there is no threat to public safety, acknowledging that officers will step up patrols in the area.

Witness Mike Grieve tells CityNews police shot an armed man roughly 100 metres from William G. Davis Junior Public School.

“I drove around the neighbourhood and heard that they were looking for someone armed with an assault rifle, and they ended up shooting him,” Grieve said in a video sent to CityNews, which shows a heavy police scene and paramedics.

William G. Davis Junior Public School, Joseph Howe Senior Public School, and Sir Oliver Mowat Collegiate Institute were all placed in lockdown as police investigated the incident.

*Parents, community members left shocked: “Just glad everyone is safe”*​Steve Matthews, whose son attends William G. Davis Junior Public School, was one of the first people to witness what he described as a man pacing back and forth outside the school with a gun.

“I don’t even know how I feel at this moment. Still just in shock that this could happen, but I am just glad everyone is safe,” Matthews said. “I saw a gentleman [near] school property walking with a rifle on his shoulder, pacing back and forth.”

Matthews, who was in his car at the time, said he was focused on the man’s gun. He quickly turned his vehicle around and kept an eye on him.

“I just saw that he kept pacing, so that’s when I decided to park and run inside [the school] and make sure 9-1-1 was contacted.”

Tracy, another mother who lives in the area and whose daughter, Chailyne, attends the elementary school, says she heard two gunshots.

“It’s been scary until we could pick them up,” Tracy said, adding that the current context of what happened in Uvalde, Texas, made her feel increasingly concerned.

“We were underneath the desks and just talking,” the girl explained. “We were just trying to be quiet.”

The police investigation comes after the tragic, *fatal shooting of 19 children* and two teachers at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, where an 18-year-old barricaded himself inside a classroom and began firing his semi-automatic rifle. Seventeen others were wounded in the shooting.

It is the third-deadliest American school shooting after the 2007 Virginia Tech shooting and the 2012 Sandy Hook Elementary School in Connecticut.






						CityNews
					






					toronto.citynews.ca


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## rmc_wannabe (26 May 2022)

This was where I grew up. Fucking shocking to me to hear. I am glad the threat was neutralized, but Jesus Christ this is terrifying to think about.


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## medicineman (26 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> I actually cheered a little bit when I read that....


I hear you there...


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## Haggis (26 May 2022)

Suicide by cop, maybe?  Dude knew that showing up in that high density location with a long gun so soon after Texas would provoke a lethal response.


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## KevinB (26 May 2022)

Haggis said:


> Suicide by cop, maybe?  Dude knew that showing up in that high density location with a long gun so soon after Texas would provoke a lethal response.


Sounds very likely at this point.


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## Jarnhamar (26 May 2022)

I would pay out of pocket to train and arm my kids teachers. I personally can't read school shooting stories.


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## Eaglelord17 (27 May 2022)

From the reports I saw it said a BB gun was recovered from the scene.

Lots of unanswered questions before I start cheering. 

1) Was it a real firearm?
2) Did the person actually threaten anyone or did a cop simply see someone with what appeared to be a rifle and shot (i.e. pointing it at people, screaming they were going to kill someone, or was it a rifle slung over a shoulder and a cop simply lined up at 100m and fired without even asking them to drop it, etc.)?
3) If it was shoot first ask questions later that is very chilling idea and its how innocents get killed. We had one guy a few years ago heading home at the same time as a Christmas parade bring a rifle in from his car. SWAT showed up and eventually it turned out everything was perfectly fine, but shooting first would have resulted in a citizen going about legal business being killed. It is also how children playing potentially get killed too. 
4) With how tight lipped they are being with it so far it likely isn’t a good look for police as if it was a good look they would likely be sharing a lot more info.

Going to wait for more info before making full judgement and cheering as right now from what limited infornation that is available isn’t giving me the warm and fuzzies. Instead it is most likely appearing to be some poor teenager/early 20s individual committing suicide by cop.


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## OldSolduer (27 May 2022)

I will hold my thoughts for now. Now doubt there will be backlash from the "police bad" crowd.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (27 May 2022)

1.Doesn't matter.
2.Get stuffed
3.Amazing how things work out that way in real life eh?
4. Pesky thing called "investigation "......but don't worry, doesn't appear you need anything like that to determine what happened.


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## rmc_wannabe (27 May 2022)

@Eaglelord17 If it were your child's school, the day after Uvalde, would you want someone to take that risk? 

The reports I saw were that dude was pacing the school yard, rifle in tow. Someone saw, ran into the school and got them to call 9-1-1, locked the schools down in the area, and then TPS arrived on scene. Once they located the suspect, an altercation started, and threat was neutralized.

The ONLY way I would believe TPS would have shot this person, in Suburbia, in the middle of the afternoon, is if there was a legitimate threat. At 100 meters, I can't tell if it's an AirSoft gun or if it's a real weapon capable of killing people. SIU will definitely know once their investigation  is complete and we have more info. In the heat of the moment.... I would probably would have fired as well, if the scenario played out as it did. 

As much as we will dissect the action of these officers in Toronto, the officers in Uvalde are being flagellated for their inaction. 

There is no happy ending here, in the sense that a situation developed where people were fearful of their lives due to the actions of this suspect. Even if he was apprehended, you can't unring that bell.


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## dimsum (27 May 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> t 100 meters, I can't tell if it's an AirSoft gun or if it's a real weapon capable of killing people.


Exactly.  Some Airsoft guns look surprisingly like real ones, especially at that distance.  

And before the "you should have shot them in the leg" crowd pipes up - the TPS officers likely only had their sidearms.  How confident are you at shooting a specific body part with a 9mm pistol at 100m?


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## rmc_wannabe (27 May 2022)

dimsum said:


> And before the "you should have shot them in the leg" crowd pipes up - the TPS officers likely only had their sidearms.  How confident are you at shooting a specific body part with a 9mm pistol at 100m?


Even then, "shoot to wound" is not a thing. It hasn't been for ages. We all know EOF; if you're at the point where you have guns up, you're shooting to kill. Centre of mass, rounds forward until the threat drops. 

Shoot to wound is a fantasy set up by Hollywood and people who have never had a weapon pointed at them.


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## CBH99 (27 May 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> I will hold my thoughts for now. Now doubt there will be backlash from the "police bad" crowd.


That crowd can bugger off, and are the first people to call the cops when something scary might happen.  Hypocrites.


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## OldSolduer (27 May 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> @Eaglelord17 If it were your child's school, the day after Uvalde, would you want someone to take that risk?
> 
> The reports I saw were that dude was pacing the school yard, rifle in tow. Someone saw, ran into the school and got them to call 9-1-1, locked the schools down in the area, and then TPS arrived on scene. Once they located the suspect, an altercation started, and threat was neutralized.
> 
> ...


This in highlights. I have an airsoft rifle that looks like a C8 from a distance.


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## Eaglelord17 (27 May 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> 1.Doesn't matter.
> 2.Get stuffed
> 3.Amazing how things work out that way in real life eh?
> 4. Pesky thing called "investigation "......but don't worry, doesn't appear you need anything like that to determine what happened.


Very hostile. Did I ever say I determined what happened? I said we need more information but based off initial reports it appears to be suicide by cop. We shall know more as more info becomes available.



rmc_wannabe said:


> @Eaglelord17 If it were your child's school, the day after Uvalde, would you want someone to take that risk?The reports I saw were that dude was pacing the school yard, rifle in tow. Someone saw, ran into the school and got them to call 9-1-1, locked the schools down in the area, and then TPS arrived on scene. Once they located the suspect, an altercation started, and threat was neutralized.
> 
> The ONLY way I would believe TPS would have shot this person, in Suburbia, in the middle of the afternoon, is if there was a legitimate threat. At 100 meters, I can't tell if it's an AirSoft gun or if it's a real weapon capable of killing people. SIU will definitely know once their investigation  is complete and we have more info. In the heat of the moment.... I would probably would have fired as well, if the scenario played out as it did.
> 
> ...


I am not faulting police here I am simply not instantly cheering. I don’t have enough information either way to make that decision. It sounds like this is going to be a sad story for all involved. If this is a suicide by cop then the cop has to deal with the mental aspect of having killed someone who wasn’t actually a threat (wouldn’t wish that upon anyone). Even just the mental aspect of having shot someone I wouldn’t wish upon them.

I can’t say what I would do in the heat of the moment as we don’t have enough information. Again how was the person shot acting when the police arrived? How did the cops act when they arrived? What distances did they shoot? What did they shoot with? Was it a real firearm and if it wasn’t how realistic was it? What steps lead up to them shooting? All very important details which we are lacking as of right now.


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## dimsum (27 May 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> I can’t say what I would do in the heat of the moment as we don’t have enough information. Again how was the person shot acting when the police arrived? How did the cops act when they arrived? What distances did they shoot? What did they shoot with? Was it a real firearm and if it wasn’t how realistic was it? What steps lead up to them shooting? All very important details which we are lacking as of right now.


Do TPS cars have a rifle/carbine in them?  If not, it's just their service sidearm.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (27 May 2022)

Kids are safe,....my details are happy.


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## KevinB (27 May 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> From the reports I saw it said a BB gun was recovered from the scene.
> 
> Lots of unanswered questions before I start cheering.
> 
> 1) Was it a real firearm?


Utterly irrelevant.  



Eaglelord17 said:


> 2) Did the person actually threaten anyone or did a cop simply see someone with what appeared to be a rifle and shot (i.e. pointing it at people, screaming they were going to kill someone, or was it a rifle slung over a shoulder and a cop simply lined up at 100m and fired without even asking them to drop it, etc.)?


Let’s think exactly about the situation.  This occurs just one day after a significantly horrifying school shooting down here.  


Eaglelord17 said:


> 3) If it was shoot first ask questions later that is very chilling idea and its how innocents get killed. We had one guy a few years ago heading home at the same time as a Christmas parade bring a rifle in from his car. SWAT showed up and eventually it turned out everything was perfectly fine, but shooting first would have resulted in a citizen going about legal business being killed. It is also how children playing potentially get killed too.


Don’t expose weapons that are not intending to be used.  This isn’t the 70’s or 80’s anymore.  Gun culture is on the decline, and for the vast majority of people ‘gun’ means threat.    
   I was at a course years ago, in my ERT gear  complete with rifle helmet etc. and giant POLICE on my vest getting out of my marked POLICE vehicle at the hotel I was staying. someone called the local POLICE…



Eaglelord17 said:


> 4) With how tight lipped they are being with it so far it likely isn’t a good look for police as if it was a good look they would likely be sharing a lot more info.


Virtually no LEA likes to brag about shooting people, it’s generally a tie as best in public with a good shooting.  



Eaglelord17 said:


> Going to wait for more info before making full judgement and cheering as right now from what limited infornation that is available isn’t giving me the warm and fuzzies. Instead it is most likely appearing to be some poor teenager/early 20s individual committing suicide by cop.


That sounds exactly right - but the individual made that choice.  It’s unfortunate, but put me in the better safe than sorry category, as it could have turned out with two downed officers and multiple children killed.


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## daftandbarmy (27 May 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Even then, "shoot to wound" is not a thing. It hasn't been for ages. We all know EOF; if you're at the point where you have guns up, you're shooting to kill. Centre of mass, rounds forward until the threat drops.
> 
> Shoot to wound is a fantasy set up by Hollywood and people who have never had a weapon pointed at them.



Rather judged by 12 than carried by 6.

(Of course, at my current state of fitness, they'd have to raise that second number to about 8  )


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## mariomike (27 May 2022)

dimsum said:


> Do TPS cars have a rifle/carbine in them?



Saw this from 2016,



> Toronto police spokesperson Mark Pugash told CTV News Tuesday that three cars in each of the city’s 17 divisions will have access to the* Colt Canada C8 Carbine*,


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## Jarnhamar (27 May 2022)

Still trying to stay away from the story but caught something about the mass shooting in Texas. The Texas police waited outside the classroom for 45 minutes while the gunman was inside killing kids. I hope Canadian police have been trained to make better decisions.


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## RangerRay (27 May 2022)

I was flabbergasted when I heard that. My understanding was it was SOP for police to immediately enter a building with a mass shooting event, even if it’s one officer with no backup. Maybe that was an urban legend?


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## KevinB (27 May 2022)

RangerRay said:


> I was flabbergasted when I heard that. My understanding was it was SOP for police to immediately enter a building with a mass shooting event, even if it’s one officer with no backup. Maybe that was an urban legend?


Not an urban legend.
   AS response best practices are to immediately confront the shooter, to limit the damage they can do.
I was revolted to hear that at least 2 officers sat at the school entrance while hearing the shooter fire on the children in a classroom.


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## daftandbarmy (27 May 2022)

KevinB said:


> Not an urban legend.
> AS response best practices are to immediately confront the shooter, to limit the damage they can do.
> I was revolted to hear that at least 2 officers sat at the school entrance while hearing the shooter fire on the children in a classroom.



Since Columbine there has been a TON of research and training done across the LEO spectrum, in the States especially, on how to deal with a school shooting situation like this and it all involves 'on scene' police entering the school immediately to save lives, not waiting for SWAT.

Diamond formations of four man teams are one tactic that I know is practised. Here's one example of some of the material out there:

Slide 8: Traditional vs. New Tactics

Traditional Deployment to an Active Shooter Event

Upon Patrol Deputies arrival at the scene
-Secure the Perimeter.
-Gather Information/Help Victims.
-Wait for S.E.B. to arrive.

Unfortunately in situations such as Columbine this precedent failed.

Rapid Deployment to an Active Shooter Event - *New Tactic used by Law Enforcement.* 

Upon Patrol Officers arrival at the scene…
-Enter the area / building as fast as possible.
*-Sole objective is to Neutralize the hostile threat with the least amount of force possible. *
-Turn scene over to Special Weapons Team when they arrive.




			https://info.publicintelligence.net/LAactiveshootertactics.pdf


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## CBH99 (27 May 2022)

KevinB said:


> Not an urban legend.
> AS response best practices are to immediately confront the shooter, to limit the damage they can do.
> I was revolted to hear that at least 2 officers sat at the school entrance while hearing the shooter fire on the children in a classroom.


What the actual f**k…  I literally have no idea what to even say or think!

I understand department policies can change drastically from one agency to another, but in this day in age I think we have ALL taken courses on how to approach/conduct operations in response to a mass shooter.  Both as individual officers as well as moving into the building as a group.  

But I’m pretty sure no agency has a policy of ‘sit tight & wait for additional officers to arrive while the school shooting takes place down the hall.’


I realize that the primary role of a school resource officer isn’t to protect the school from a mass shooting.  But 🤯🤬😡


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## Booter (27 May 2022)

What you’re seeing there is two stages- hot to the target and then the cold
At the entrances facilitating the evacuation. I bet within a few minutes there was about 100 law enforcement personnel on the scene- who would know two initial contact teams had moved into the school to confront the threat- so those new on the scene would be creating safe corridors and evacuating the building.

Why they were held up at the classroom door is the issue.

It doesn’t make sense to have a dozens of officers rolling to the contact point to funnel through one door,

The conversation is why the initial teams couldn’t breach.

This is also a place where the conversation is- if the door is barricaded. What other points of entry to the classroom are available, exterior windows, dry wall, emergency exits- brick walls with the right motivators.


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## KevinB (27 May 2022)

Uvalde shooting: Texas shooting response was 'wrong', says official
					

"If I thought it would help, I would apologise," state safety chief says at heated press conference.



					www.bbc.com
				




Pretty appalling situation.


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## Booter (27 May 2022)

The time I saw this morning said the first two contact teams were in within 4 mins on the scene.


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## Booter (27 May 2022)

Oh that timeline is totally different than what I’ve seen. Disregard my last couple messages. That’s not what I saw broke down previously


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## KevinB (27 May 2022)

Booter said:


> Oh that timeline is totally different than what I’ve seen. Disregard my last couple messages. That’s not what I saw broke down previouslu


PM inbound


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## KevinB (27 May 2022)

FWIW there is some issues with the narrative...








						Uvalde shooting: Texas police change key details as criticism mounts
					

Officials due to speak amid questions over why officers took more than an hour to stop the attack.



					www.bbc.com
				





Not a good moment in LE.


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## daftandbarmy (27 May 2022)

KevinB said:


> FWIW there is some issues with the narrative...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You know it's not good when the Beaverton weighs in...

Uvalde police promise that with more funding they will be able to wait even longer in parking lots​
UVALDE, TX – Following revelations that police in Uvalde, Texas waited up to an hour in a parking lot outside Robb Elementary before attempting to stop the shooter inside, police department officials have vowed that they will put any and all funding increases into getting those wait times up even higher.

“Our officers avoided doing anything to help, and actively prevented others from assisting from the moment they arrived at Robb Elementary,” explained police spokesperson Michael Banks, “however, budget constraints only allowed them to keep this up for about as long as it takes to get a new pair of glasses from LensCrafters. We’re hoping that city and state officials will finally give us the financial resources to increase those crucial wait times to the point that you could fit in a Marvel movie, or if we’re lucky, maybe even long enough for a DC movie! With increased funding, we can do less for longer.”

Uvalde police promise that with more funding they will be able to wait even longer in parking lots


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## Humphrey Bogart (27 May 2022)

This entire event has shades of 2014 Parliament Hill Shootings or Gabriel Wortman, all over it.

Basically a bunch of patrol officers from different agencies that don't talk to each other show up with no clear leadership and nobody knowing who is in Command of the operation.

The leadership that does eventually take control ends up being incompetent and probably makes the situation worse.

I've read that it was Border Patrol Agents that happened to be in the Area that ended up ultimately responding and subduing the threat.

This is why you still need a few Cops who are hard asses with some initiative, that can go "Follow Me!" and lead the other mushrooms in to the frey.


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## brihard (27 May 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Even then, "shoot to wound" is not a thing. It hasn't been for ages. We all know EOF; if you're at the point where you have guns up, you're shooting to kill. Centre of mass, rounds forward until the threat drops.
> 
> Shoot to wound is a fantasy set up by Hollywood and people who have never had a weapon pointed at them.



You’re out of your lane and giving incorrect info. Police don’t “shoot to kill” any more than we “shoot to wound”. If deadly force is used, it’s to stop a threat of death or grievous bodily harm. That’s what the law allows. That means we shoot to stop the subject’s behaviour that’s presenting that threat. When we can’t articulate that we still reasonably perceive that threat, our authority to use deadly force stops. That’s how Forcillo from Toronto Police ate a criminal conviction in the Sammy Yatim shooting. His first shots were justified; his second series of shots after the threat changed was not.

If deadly force is lawfully used, then whether they live or die is an incidental result to the behaviour change.

I don’t have enough accurate info to comment on Uvelde and who did what when. I don’t trust most of the info that’s out there enough to hang an opinion on it. I’ll just say, in general terms, as someone who has instructed active shooter, that up here if there’s an active threat to life, the expectation is you go in, even alone if you have to. 

TTPs vary and I won’t elaborate on them, but active shooter response is all about - same thing - changing the behaviour away from threat to innocent life. Maybe they switch from slaughtering kids and fight cops. Shitty, but still an improvement. Maybe they barricade and it becomes a negotiator / tactical call with a team immediately ready to take the door on a moment’s notice. Sometimes, on becoming aware of police presence, the subject will suicide, and that’s fine too. 

But all of these are predicated by moving swiftly to the threat based on the best info you have- shots, screams, fleeing victims/witnesses, blood trails, 911 call info, or whatever intelligence you have. You move to the threat with every intention of winning a one on one fight where only one person will walk away and it ain’t gonna be the other guy.


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## brihard (27 May 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> This entire event has shades of 2014 Parliament Hill Shootings or Gabriel Wortman, all over it.
> 
> Basically a bunch of patrol officers from different agencies that don't talk to each other show up with no clear leadership and nobody knowing who is in Command of the operation.
> 
> ...


Disagreed WRT Parliament hill. Very distinct from Portapique. Parliament happened super fast, and mounties and the Sergeant at Arms moved to the threat swiftly. From first to last shot was mere minutes and within a couple hundred meters linear. The next ten or twelve hours were a cluster, but the actual threat was addressed swiftly. Also, the Parliamentary security were not armed at the time. Today the guy wouldn’t even make it to the front door.


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## Humphrey Bogart (27 May 2022)

brihard said:


> Disagreed WRT Parliament hill. Very distinct from Portapique. Parliament happened super fast, and mounties and the Sergeant at Arms moved to the threat swiftly. From first to last shot was mere minutes and within a couple hundred meters linear. The next ten or twelve hours were a cluster, but the actual threat was addressed swiftly. Also, the Parliamentary security were not armed at the time. Today the guy wouldn’t even make it to the front door.



Totally true Brihard.  My comment about it being like Parliament Hill was more to do with the absolute cluster that happened afterward and the mass confusion with different agencies running around that didn't talk to each other, lack of effective command structure, etc.

We have been lucky in Canada that in most of these attacks, the perp has had very low capability.  Zehaf-Bibeau is someone I would classify as someone with low capability.

Wortman and Mayerthorpe are two examples of what can happen with attackers that have higher capability.


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## Fishbone Jones (27 May 2022)

Kev, would the cars be carrying ballistic shields and plate carriers in the trunk? Could they not be used to gain entry and search? Level 4 equipment should defeat anything a gunman is carrying, I would think.


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## brihard (27 May 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Kev, would the cars be carrying ballistic shields and plate carriers in the trunk? Could they not be used to gain entry and search? Level 4 equipment should defeat anything a gunman is carrying, I would think.


Plate carriers are very common now. Shields and breaching equipment are more hit or miss for ‘first on scene’ patrol units, and every police force is it’s own story. But yeah, absolutely, have the kit available (not necessarily every car, but at least on scene swiftly) and use it.


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## mariomike (27 May 2022)

brihard said:


> Shields and breaching equipment are more hit or miss for ‘first on scene’ patrol units, and every police force is it’s own story.



Uvalde has its own SWAT team. They should have forcible entry equipment.

In addition, emergency services could lend the police their forcible entry equipment.

According to the report posted, police used a key.


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## brihard (27 May 2022)

mariomike said:


> Uvalde has its own SWAT team. They should have the required equipment.
> 
> In addition, emergency services do forcible entry on a regular basis. They could lend the police their equipment.
> 
> According to the report posted, police used a key.


Sure. Small town SWAT, probably part time, probably a mix of officers who work patrol and who work special units and gear up and go when a call comes. You can probably get a couple of them on scene with the kit they keep in their trunk pretty quickly. That gives you at least a small element for an immediate action if needed (like if shots start again). For a deliberate operation (eg, the negotiator says “guys this isn’t going well” and the incident commander says “ok, we’ll do a dynamic entry”), assembling a full team and bringing all the additional kit you’d want on hand generally takes longer. Kev can talk much better than I to specifics, though. I’ve worked alongside tactical teams but have never been on one nor done their course.


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## mariomike (27 May 2022)

brihard said:


> Small town SWAT, probably part time, probably a mix of officers who work patrol and who work special units and gear up and go when a call comes.



They have a Facebook page.


Apparently they opened the door with a key.


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## dapaterson (27 May 2022)

It was border patrol pissed with police inaction that went in.  Reports say 19 officers were milling about the halls of the school letting children be killed.

Fucking cowards.  All of them.


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## dapaterson (27 May 2022)

I don't want to believe it - Uvalde police now have out of county police around to protect them, as they are afraid.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1530222513887883265


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## brihard (27 May 2022)

dapaterson said:


> I don't want to believe it - Uvalde police now have out of county police around to protect them, as they are afraid.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1530222513887883265


Plausible.


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## dapaterson (27 May 2022)

brihard said:


> Plausible.


Yeah, I guess, we have proof that they won't do anything to protect the public, and they are part of the public, so...


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## dapaterson (27 May 2022)

Nineteen officers present, doing nothing.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1530223107306291202


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## lenaitch (27 May 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> 4) With how tight lipped they are being with it so far it likely isn’t a good look for police as if it was a good look they would likely be sharing a lot more info.


In Ontario, when the Special Investigation Unit invokes its mandate, it becomes their investigation. The control and dissemination of all information is at the sole discretion of the Director or designee.  The actual wording of the relevant section of the Act is; _"[The Director] shall preserve secrecy in respect of all information obtained by him or her in the course of exercising a power or performing a duty under this Act."  _A later section empowers the Director to issue public statements at their discretion, which they seldom seem to want to exercise.



CBH99 said:


> I realize that the primary role of a school resource officer isn’t to protect the school from a mass shooting.  But 🤯🤬😡


 I haven't read whether the school in Texas had an SRO.  In relation to the shooting near the Toronto school, resource officers have been eradicated from the landscape in Toronto and many other Ontario jurisdictions.  Parent groups and school boards didn't like the concept, felt the uniforms were intimidating, police scared the children, or some such thing.


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## lenaitch (27 May 2022)

dapaterson said:


> I don't want to believe it - Uvalde police now have out of county police around to protect them, as they are afraid.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1530222513887883265


Well, when you piss off the citizens of what is probably the most heavily armed State in the Union . . .


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## Haggis (27 May 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Even then, "shoot to wound" is not a thing. It hasn't been for ages. We all know EOF; if you're at the point where you have guns up,* you're shooting to kill.*


*Wrong.  Articulate that in court and you're going to prison.*


rmc_wannabe said:


> Centre of mass, rounds forward until the threat drops.


That's more correct.


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## KevinB (28 May 2022)

There is a lot of fail in this incident. 

Right now talking to a few folks who where in situ, the BBC time lines are correct. 

If you have seen the map and time line, you need to wonder WTF was going on. 
   At least 7 serious errors in the LE response. Admittedly ai stopped counting at that point and just shook my head.  
Eventually BORTAC ignored the Incident Commander and entered with the janitors key and serviced the target. 

1) Very few LE ERT/TAC/SRT/SWAT teams have an explosive entry program. 
2) Most LE do have ballistic breaching capabilities with shotgun 
3) I can’t think of any LE who don’t have mechanical breaching capability. 
4) Most LEO now have a carbine and plate carrier and IFAK with them 
5) Shields, some teams use them, personally I’m not a fan as they don’t do much for rifle rifle, I prefer to use speed and violence of action, as opposed to slow and marginal protection with a shield. 

I’m just livid at the first responders and the incident commander. 
  The incident with the parents outside the school is just so fucking revolting, that I honestly can’t get into it at this point.


----------



## CBH99 (28 May 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I haven't read whether the school in Texas had an SRO.  In relation to the shooting near the Toronto school, resource officers have been eradicated from the landscape in Toronto and many other Ontario jurisdictions.  Parent groups and school boards didn't like the concept, felt the uniforms were intimidating, police scared the children, or some such thing.


That is literally the dumbest thing I’ve heard all week…

(Absolutely no disrespect to you personally - my comment is directed at the parent groups and school boards.)


We had the police come by our school when I was in elementary, and later had an SRO that was there once a week.  

They were great.  Great with the kids, great with the parents, and I think we all grew up with a very pro-police mindset because of it.  

What’s the point in raising your kids in such a way that they are intimidated by the very people we ask to protect them?  How do they realistically thrive in a world where they are kept at a distance from the very instruments of our society?

I wish someone in those jurisdictions had the balls and brains to tell the parents ‘No.  we raise your kids during daytime hours, Monday to Friday.  They’ll grow up knowing right from wrong, not being scared of the police, and able to write legibly.  The end.’

Just because they are parents doesn’t mean they aren’t well disguised batshit crazy and/or muppets.


<rant off>


----------



## Haggis (28 May 2022)

CBH99 said:


> That is literally the dumbest thing I’ve heard all week…
> 
> What’s the point in raising your kids in such a way that they are intimidated by the very people we ask to protect them?  How do they realistically thrive in a world where they are kept at a distance from the very instruments of our society?
> 
> I wish someone in those jurisdictions had the balls and brains to tell the parents ‘No.  we raise your kids during daytime hours, Monday to Friday.  They’ll grow up knowing right from wrong, not being scared of the police, and able to write legibly.


There are still parents out there - and I`ve seen them in person - who tell their misbehaving children that "the police will come and take them away" if they don`t behave.  I want kids to run towards the police, not away.


----------



## mariomike (28 May 2022)

Haggis said:


> I want kids to run towards the police, not away.



Anyone who does anything to help a child in his life is a hero.


My childhood memory of the police was when they marched us out the flag pole in front of our elementary school. A Metro officer lowered the Elmer flag - indicating a child had been struck. His chrome-yellow police car had a long whip aerial with a black flag.

"The Black Flags are Flying! This is not a tribute to the dead, but a warning to the living!!".





It was a very somber occassion.

( I like the counterman with the cigarette in the Rockwell art.  )


----------



## Jarnhamar (28 May 2022)

Haggis said:


> There are still parents out there - and I`ve seen them in person - who tell their misbehaving children that "the police will come and take them away" if they don`t behave.  I want kids to run towards the police, not away.


That's me as a parent. However I gave up the last time I tried that threat on my daughter and she told me to pull out my cell phone and call the police.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (28 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> That's me as a parent. However I gave up the last time I tried that threat on my daughter and she told me to pull out my cell phone and call the police.


----------



## Kat Stevens (28 May 2022)

I was taught as a child that Mr Policeman was my friend. My grandchildren have been taught to avoid them. Sad, but there we are.


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## lenaitch (28 May 2022)

mariomike said:


> Anyone who does anything to help a child in his life is a hero.
> 
> 
> My childhood memory of the police was when they marched us out the flag pole in front of our elementary school. A Metro officer lowered the Elmer flag - indicating a child had been struck. His chrome-yellow police car had a long whip aerial with a black flag.
> ...


Cool clip.  I have no recollection of that.  I suppose that means we had no incidents at our school; but I don't remember the radio announcements either.  So dramatic!  The serious voice over Fanfare for the Common Man.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (28 May 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> I was taught as a child that Mr Policeman was my friend. My grandchildren have been taught to avoid them. Sad, but there we are.


Depends a lot on your upbringing and socio-economic class. 

I was brought up in a culture where Omerta was something you followed. Snitches end up in ditches. Cops weren't to be trusted. If you had a problem, you dealt with it or talked to people in  the community and it got resolved. 

I shit you not, this was 1990s Toronto. I know other ethnic communities that have similar distrust of police based on police from the home country. And honestly, mass media and events throughout North America of police brutality have reinforced the 1312 belief in various communities.

Personally, I have taught my teens to treat cops the same way as you would a K9 Dog : Be polite, Yes Sir/No Sir, "Am I being detained, Sir?" But also....sadly...no sudden movements, keep your hands visible, and if they put hands on you, go limp. As we have seen with George Floyd, and countless other situations....  if things get tense, dog is going to bite. 

I understand "Not all cops..." but I view it the same way as weapons safety: Treat every gun as its loaded because it's the time you're complacent that bad things happen.


----------



## Booter (28 May 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Depends a lot on your upbringing and socio-economic class.
> 
> I was brought up in a culture where Omerta was something you followed. Snitches end up in ditches. Cops weren't to be trusted. If you had a problem, you dealt with it or talked to people in  the community and it got resolved.
> 
> ...


I generally treat the police the same way. I have had several poor interactions with them (in Canada and abroad)- so I default to polite with clear hands. So no one is nervous. I don’t think much about this though- if they are honest and calm and I am honest and calm we have no issues.


----------



## Haggis (28 May 2022)

Booter said:


> I generally treat the police the same way. I have had several poor interactions with them (in Canada and abroad)- so I default to polite with clear hands. So no one is nervous. I don’t think much about this though- if they are honest and calm and I am honest and calm we have no issues.


Two rules of thumb when dealing with police officers, Border Services Officer, Game Wardens etc. are:

- be polite as you are following in the footsteps of the last asshole they dealt with; and

- never deliberately piss off someone who can ruin your day.


----------



## Booter (28 May 2022)

Haggis said:


> Two rules of thumb when dealing with police officers, Border Services Officer, Game Wardens etc. are:
> 
> - be polite as you are following in the footsteps of the last asshole they dealt with; and
> 
> - never deliberately piss off someone who can ruin your day.


It really is good advice. My friends that think I should play it different don’t get it- if they act improperly I follow up later. In the moment I don’t make anything worse. 

Be it a large municipal agency taking me
Down at gunpoint in an intersection or the agents processing me on my way through a border.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (28 May 2022)

lenaitch said:


> In Ontario, when the Special Investigation Unit invokes its mandate, it becomes their investigation. The control and dissemination of all information is at the sole discretion of the Director or designee.  The actual wording of the relevant section of the Act is; _"[The Director] shall preserve secrecy in respect of all information obtained by him or her in the course of exercising a power or performing a duty under this Act."  _A later section empowers the Director to issue public statements at their discretion, which they seldom seem to want to exercise.
> 
> 
> I haven't read whether the school in Texas had an SRO.  In relation to the shooting near the Toronto school, resource officers have been eradicated from the landscape in Toronto and many other Ontario jurisdictions.  Parent groups and school boards didn't like the concept, felt the uniforms were intimidating, police scared the children, or some such thing.


If I remember correctly groups like BLM also had a hand in it; their reasoning was that SROs intimidated certain groups of students.


----------



## Booter (28 May 2022)

Retired AF Guy said:


> If I remember correctly groups like BLM also had a hand in it; their reasoning was that SROs intimidated certain groups of students.


It was a demand of the groups in some cities


----------



## OldSolduer (29 May 2022)

Retired AF Guy said:


> If I remember correctly groups like BLM also had a hand in it; their reasoning was that SROs intimidated certain groups of students.


Certain groups being the hood rats who’d be free to cause trouble


----------



## Kat Stevens (29 May 2022)

Booter said:


> I generally treat the police the same way. I have had several poor interactions with them (in Canada and abroad)- so I default to polite with clear hands. So no one is nervous. I don’t think much about this though- if they are honest and calm and I am honest and calm we have no issues.


Myself, my (then) boss, and a very large loud good ol' boy potential investor from Alabama, were in Guadalajara doing a site recce for a potentially multi million dollar water bottling plant. I was still sort of fresh out of the army at the time. We were going to the potential site when we drove straight into a federal police/army drug interdiction checkpoint. We pulled over and I placed my hands flat on the dashboard immediately, boss looked at me like I had three heads. We were ordered out of the car. Boss and "big Jim" start fumbling around trying to grab their valuables to take with them. I yelled at them both to leave everything except their wallets in the car and GTFO. big Jim chose not to do so, telling everyone he was an American, goddammit(!). He found himself next to the car on the ground with a carbine pointed at his head. I dragged boss off to the area they told us to wait in when we first got out of the car. I told the boss to keep his hands in plain sight, no sudden moves, no prolonged eye contact. Thanks to Big Jim we got way more scrutiny than we would have if he would have stfu and complied. I really think our Canadian passports saved us, and the half carton of smokes that magically disappeared. The guy in charge was polite and professional, but made it clear that maybe I, the serf in the party, should educate the adults about checkpoint etiquette when a .50 cal MG is aimed at your car. Be polite and not get lit up. Not the only story from that ten days where Big Jim almost got us killed.


----------



## Booter (29 May 2022)

Some of the young fellas on those checkpoints are VERY nervous. I always strike a calm demeanour and even if I don’t speak the language I say my answers in even tones.

You guys sound
Lucky you were there. You’d be jugged for sure without the right cash only “fine”


----------



## daftandbarmy (29 May 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Myself, my (then) boss, and a very large loud good ol' boy potential investor from Alabama, were in Guadalajara doing a site recce for a potentially multi million dollar water bottling plant. I was still sort of fresh out of the army at the time. We were going to the potential site when we drove straight into a federal police/army drug interdiction checkpoint. We pulled over and I placed my hands flat on the dashboard immediately, boss looked at me like I had three heads. We were ordered out of the car. Boss and "big Jim" start fumbling around trying to grab their valuables to take with them. I yelled at them both to leave everything except their wallets in the car and GTFO. big Jim chose not to do so, telling everyone he was an American, goddammit(!). He found himself next to the car on the ground with a carbine pointed at his head. I dragged boss off to the area they told us to wait in when we first got out of the car. I told the boss to keep his hands in plain sight, no sudden moves, no prolonged eye contact. Thanks to Big Jim we got way more scrutiny than we would have if he would have stfu and complied. I really think our Canadian passports saved us, and the half carton of smokes that magically disappeared. The guy in charge was polite and professional, but made it clear that maybe I, the serf in the party, should educate the adults about checkpoint etiquette when a .50 cal MG is aimed at your car. Be polite and not get lit up. Not the only story from that ten days where Big Jim almost got us killed.



I had an interesting interaction along those lines in Mexico, during a climbing trip, driving back to Mexico City from the interior.

A police checkpoint appeared on the highway and we pulled over and were searched. I was amazed at how derogatory some of the American passengers were, even though the police were polite, professional, and armed to the teeth with M4 carbines.

I leaned over to one of the mouthy Yanks and pointed out the window to the cop covering the searchers and said 'dust cover open'. He didn't know what that meant so I added 'one up the spout'. He got a bit quieter


----------



## KevinB (29 May 2022)

Good or Bad, they are the guy with the gun.
Most Westerners don’t realize how well they have it with LE.


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## Good2Golf (29 May 2022)

Haggis said:


> Two rules of thumb when dealing with police officers, Border Services Officer, Game Wardens etc. are:
> 
> - be polite as you are following in the footsteps of the last asshole they dealt with; and
> 
> - never deliberately piss off someone who can ruin your day.


Amen. 

Many good friends/neighbours were OPP in my previous neighbourhood and I did many a ride-along and saw what they have to deal with, and got lots of advice about how one should conduct one’s self if ever the need arose. 

Fast forward several years, I’m posted IR, road-running a 3+ hour drive to work late Sunday night, “doing a few knots” on the backroads.  I flash past what I quickly assess to be a blacked-out OPP cruiser parked with a PC writing up notes.  I could literally see his face light up red from the radar display as I passed him…Uugh.  Long story short, I figure I’m done, so I brake quickly to a full stop, pull well off onto the shoulder, drop ALL the windows, turn on the interior lights, turn off the engine, as the PC finishes his U-turn and pulls behind me I place my keys out the window and set them in the roof, then I put both hands on the wheel at the 12 o’clock position and don’t move.  He walks up to me, swings his flashlight to the yellow ‘Support our Troops’ decal at the bottom corner of the windshield, then back to me, and asks if I’m headIng to the base? (yes)  He said, ‘you were moving pretty good…”  I said, “yeah, a lot faster than I should have been, that’s for sure!”  (I figured honesty is the best policy.)  Long pause, then he hands my license back, and said “please slow down and be safe, not only for others, but for you and your family too. Have a good night.”

He could have easily done me right there, but I figure my ‘Conduct After Capture’ advice from my OPP buddies certainly helped me avoid a thumpin.’


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## Jarnhamar (29 May 2022)

Booter said:


> Some of the young fellas on those checkpoints are VERY nervous. I always strike a calm demeanour and even if I don’t speak the language I say my answers in even tones.



Is there any truth to the shit people say about just rolling the window down just an inch to talk to officers during ride programs?


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## brihard (29 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Is there any truth to the shit people say about just rolling the window down just an inch to talk to officers during ride programs?


Definitely happens. And yes, it's allowed. With that said, now with the Mandatory Alcohol Screening provisions that came in a few years ago, it probably just guarantees you're going to be told to provide a sample. Generally speaking at a RIDE check, most people won't be asked for a sample- there's usually too much traffic for that to work. Doing the whole 'window cracked an inch' thing is a great way to bring attention on yourself.


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## daftandbarmy (29 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Is there any truth to the shit people say about just rolling the window down just an inch to talk to officers during ride programs?



I've stopped and searched hundreds of vehicles, some with the Police in attendance and some not.

My one learning is that most people are just impatient to get on with their day. About half of them are unpredictable and just plain odd. On the other hand some are genuinely nuts, and about 20% are not sober (well, in Ireland anyways  ).

It doesn't matter how polite you are as any of them can turn out to be real assholes so, like approaching any species of unpredictable wildlife, it is important to be prepared for anything. 

And that's one of the reasons I have so much respect for cops who do this for a living... for years.


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## Jarnhamar (29 May 2022)

brihard said:


> Definitely happens. And yes, it's allowed. With that said, now with the Mandatory Alcohol Screening provisions that came in a few years ago, it probably just guarantees you're going to be told to provide a sample. Generally speaking at a RIDE check, most people won't be asked for a sample- there's usually too much traffic for that to work. Doing the whole 'window cracked an inch' thing is a great way to bring attention on yourself.


Neat.
So if I'm pulled over and a cop doesn't detect alcohol I could still be told to provide a sample?

(not trying to dig a rabbit hole, just interesting stuff)

What I'm really shocked about is all the OPP in the GTA area pulling over kids doing 170-190kph in cars. Too bad they can't be charged with attempted murder.


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## brihard (29 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Neat.
> So if I'm pulled over and a cop doesn't detect alcohol I could still be told to provide a sample?
> 
> (not trying to dig a rabbit hole, just interesting stuff)
> ...


Since December 2018, yes. Anyone operating a motor vehicle can be required on demand to give a breath sample into a roadside device by police provided they have one immediately at hand. Previous to this, police required “reasonable suspicion” that a person was operating a motor vehicle with alcohol in their body, but many were evading detection under that standard. I left the road not too long after the new provisions, but even in that brief time I caught a few drivers by MAS screening that I would not previously have demanded a sample from, for lack of grounds to make the demand.


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## KevinB (30 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Neat.
> So if I'm pulled over and a cop doesn't detect alcohol I could still be told to provide a sample?
> 
> (not trying to dig a rabbit hole, just interesting stuff)
> ...


I’m not totally familiar with the Ontario Highway Act, but IIRC 50km over the limit can be criminal dangerous driving.

Most states and provinces have criminal charges for excessive speed. 
  In addition to several other criminal charges, basically something along the lines of reckless endangerment.

Most Police cars doing Highway work have pretty good engines and suspensions, but aren’t nearly as fast as their radio


----------



## Haggis (30 May 2022)

KevinB said:


> I’m not totally familiar with the Ontario Highway Act, but IIRC 50km over the limit can be criminal dangerous driving.


In Ontario anything over 50 km/h is considered street racing or stunt driving.   7 day roadside licence suspension, 14 day roadside vehicle seizure (regardless of who actually owns the vehicle)  and up to a $10 K fine on conviction under the Ontario Highway Traffic Act.  That's separate from any charges under the Criminal Code for dangerous operation, etc.


KevinB said:


> Most Police cars doing Highway work have pretty good engines and suspensions, but aren’t nearly as fast as their radio


In Ontario, police pursuits are governed by Regulation.  I commute almost daily on the ON 401/QC 20 and 40.  There is the occasional driver who channels their inner Mr. Sulu.


----------



## KevinB (30 May 2022)

Haggis said:


> In Ontario anything over 50 km/h is considered street racing or stunt driving.   7 day roadside licence suspension, 14 day roadside vehicle seizure (regardless of who actually owns the vehicle)  and up to a $10 K fine on conviction.
> 
> In Ontario, police pursuits are governed by Regulation.


That’s Regulation is a significant wall of text. 
  In Virginia each LEA has their own policies, which are generally similar based on Virginia Law Enforcement Professional Standards Commission. 

Virginia Law
Under Virginia law there are four statutes that typically apply to vehicular pursuits or emergency responses: Va. Code §§ 46.2-920, 46.2-817, 19.2-77, and 46.2-921.1.

Va. Code § 46.2-920
Generally, Va. Code § 46.2-920 provides exemptions from criminal prosecution of traffic laws for drivers of emergency vehicles “when such vehicle is being used in the performance of public services, and when such vehicle is operated under emergency conditions.”

Emergency conditions are not specifically
defined, however, law enforcement officers must be in “the chase or apprehension of violators of the law or persons charged with or suspected of any such violation” or “in response to an emergency call.”

Specifically, drivers of these vehicles, including any “law-enforcement vehicle operated by or under the direction of a federal, state, or local law-enforcement officer,” are exempt from certain traffic regulations and may:
• Disregard speed limits;
• Move through posted stops if the speed of
the vehicle is sufficiently reduced to enable it
to pass;
• Park or stop notwithstanding the other
provisions of this chapter;
• Disregard regulations governing a direction
of movement of vehicles turning in specified
directions;
• Move around or pass another vehicle at any
intersection;
• Pass or overtake stopped or slow-moving
vehicles on the left, in a no-passing zone or by crossing the highway center line, on the way to an emergency; and,
• Pass or overtake stopped or slow-moving vehicles by going off the paved or main traveled portion of the roadway on the right.

Law enforcement officers are required to exercise these exemptions “while having due regard for safety of persons and property.”

law intersects with almost exclusively in situations where an injured (or deceased) suspect is suing a law enforcement agency for a violation of his civil rights, typically in a case of excessive force.
Until recently, if a suspect was injured as a result of police action during a pursuit, he would file a federal § 1983 lawsuit against the agency for a violation of his 4th amendment rights.

The U.S. Supreme Court adopted a test to determine the reasonableness of force used against a fleeing suspect in Tennessee v. Garner. Garner outlines a three part test to determine Fourth Amendment Constitutional vehicular pursuit reasonableness, where the:
• Suspect must pose an immediate threat of serious physical harm to the officer or the public;
• Deadly force must have been necessary to prevent escape; and,
• Suspect is given warning, if feasible.
Typically, this test is applied, as it was in Garner, where police use a firearm to prevent the escape of a suspect.
Recently, the U.S. Supreme Court created an extension of its use of force Fourth Amendment reasonableness test to vehicular pursuits. In Scott v. Harris, the police executed a PIT maneuver, which terminated the pursuit and left the suspect a paraplegic. The Court held that “[a] police officer's attempt to terminate a dangerous high-speed car chase that threatens the lives of innocent bystanders does not violate the Fourth Amendment, even when it places the fleeing motorist at risk of serious injury or death.”


Additionally, the exemptions only apply when the operator of the emergency vehicle “displays a flashing, blinking, or alternating emergency light or lights;” and, “sounds a siren, exhaust whistle, or air horn designed to give automatically intermittent signals, as may be reasonably necessary.”

Also, the vehicle must be covered by standard motor vehicle liability insurance or a certificate of self insurance.

Furthermore, law enforcement officers will lose these exemptions from criminal prosecution for “conduct constituting reckless disregard of the safety of persons and property.”

In addition to exemptions for criminal prosecution, the statute also has civil liability implications. At the end of subsection B, the statute states that “nothing in this section shall release the operator of any such vehicle from civil liability for failure to use reasonable care in such operation,” although the Virginia Supreme Court has held that “one will not be held negligent per se for the specific acts authorized under the statute.”


Va. Code § 46.2-817
The penalty for eluding or fleeing law enforcement is set forth in Va. Code § 46.2-820. If a person ignores a signal and drives in “wanton or willful” disregard of that signal, he can be subject to a Class 2 misdemeanor. The penalty is increased to a Class 6 felony if the defendant drives in such way as to “interfere with or endanger” the operation of a law enforcement vehicle.

And finally, if a law enforcement officer is killed as a “proximate result of the pursuit,” the defendant can be charged and punished with a Class 4 felony.

 Additionally, a defendant’s driver’s license may be suspended for a conviction of this section for either 30 or 90 days. 

Va. Code §§ 19.2-77 and 46.2-921.1

Law enforcement officers in Virginia are permitted to cross jurisdictional lines to make warrantless arrests. More specifically, if an officer is in pursuit of a suspect he may “pursue such person anywhere in the Commonwealth and, when actually in close pursuit, may arrest him wherever he is found.”
Motorists also have a duty to yield the right of way to emergency vehicles; failure to do so may be punished as a Class 1 misdemeanor.


—
VA recently reauthorized High Speed Pursuits after examining the data on them.


----------



## lenaitch (30 May 2022)

KevinB said:


> I’m not totally familiar with the Ontario Highway Act, but IIRC 50km over the limit can be criminal dangerous driving.
> 
> Most states and provinces have criminal charges for excessive speed.
> In addition to several other criminal charges, basically something along the lines of reckless endangerment.
> ...


Just to clarify terminology, the HTA and driving legislation in other provinces is provincial regulatory law; criminal law is federal.  The 
'+50 provision' is part, just part, of the HTA's so-called stunt driving legislation.  As of July 2021, one of the changes was to reduce the threshold to +40kmh if the posted limit is under 80kmh.

Under criminal law, I suppose it is possible to be charged with Dangerous Driving, Criminal Negligence, etc. at 2kmh over the posted limited if other facts of the case meet the provisions of the particular section.


----------



## KevinB (30 May 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Just to clarify terminology, the HTA and driving legislation in other provinces is provincial regulatory law; criminal law is federal.  The
> '+50 provision' is part, just part, of the HTA's so-called stunt driving legislation.  As of July 2021, one of the changes was to reduce the threshold to +40kmh if the posted limit is under 80kmh.
> 
> Under criminal law, I suppose it is possible to be charged with Dangerous Driving, Criminal Negligence, etc. at 2kmh over the posted limited if other facts of the case meet the provisions of the particular section.


Roger that. 
   Again being able to articulate the ‘why’ is important.  

I wish Ontario used Blue and Red lights for their Police cars.   Every time I’m going up 401 at what I think is a reasonable speed this car comes up with red lights and gets annoyed when I try to wave him by… 
  ‘I’m sorry I thought you where a fireman doesn’t always sit well’. I had to badge my way out of a few incidents.


----------



## Good2Golf (30 May 2022)

They do now, KevinB.  As well, I’ve seen ambulances recently transitioning from the older red&white to red&blue.


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## KevinB (30 May 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> They do now, KevinB.  As well, I’ve seen ambulances recently transitioning from the older red&white to red&blue.


Damn so I need to follow the speed limit now you say…
   Ambulance with red and blue? That’s weird.


----------



## Good2Golf (30 May 2022)

KevinB said:


> Damn so I need to follow the speed limit now you say…


 
 I know, I know… 😉 



KevinB said:


> Ambulance with red and blue? That’s weird.



Yeah, I thought so too. Not sure if it’s meant to be blue, or it’s just a very ‘cool white’, but it definitely has a very blue tint to it, compare even to xenon or LED headlights.


----------



## lenaitch (30 May 2022)

KevinB said:


> That’s Regulation is a significant wall of text.
> In Virginia each LEA has their own policies, which are generally similar based on Virginia Law Enforcement Professional Standards Commission.
> 
> Virginia Law
> ...


Interestingly (to some, I suppose) the codified exemptions under the Ontario HTA for emergency vehicles are limited to posted speed limits and intersections (technically, must stop first).

The Ontario 'suspect vehicle apprehension' regulation came about after a number of inquests where innocent motorists and pedestrians were killed during pursuits for what were initially relatively minor infractions.  Back when the earth was still cooling and I was on the road, and before any Police Vehicle Operations training or SUI, we would, admittedly, chase at the drop of a hat for any and all reasons.  Luckily, my worst outcome was one wrecker police car (not mine) and a bad guy with a broken are.


----------



## Haggis (30 May 2022)

KevinB said:


> Ambulance with red and blue? That’s weird.


Not really.  Blue has been shown to better penetrate snow, fog, rain and haze, being visible at longer distances.  It also encourages folks, who otherwise wouldn't, to pull over fearing it's the cops closing in.  Some people think that "it's probably nobody I know, so who cares" when an ambulance approaches.

Everybody gets out of the way of fire trucks. Fire trucks don't care.  They will crush you.


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## CBH99 (30 May 2022)

Haggis said:


> Not really.  Blue has been shown to better penetrate snow, fog, rain and haze, being visible at longer distances.  It also encourages folks, who otherwise wouldn't, to pull over fearing it's the cops closing in.  Some people think that "it's probably nobody I know, so who cares" when an ambulance approaches.
> 
> Everybody gets out of the way of fire trucks. Fire trucks don't care.  They will crush you.


As someone who used to work EMS before getting hired & mired by Alberta SOLGEN, I was surprised how many people didn’t get out of the way with the same urgency as for the police or fire.


The police?  Everybody scoots right over. 

Big & loud fire truck?  Between their louder sirens (at least here) and blow horns, everybody got right out of their way!

Us?  Lights & sirens on, maybe the odd blow of the emergency horn, and some people would just mosey on over when they could…


(Most citizens did get right out of the way tho)


----------



## KevinB (30 May 2022)

CBH99 said:


> As someone who used to work EMS before getting hired & mired by Alberta SOLGEN, I was surprised how many people didn’t get out of the way with the same urgency as for the police or fire.
> 
> 
> The police?  Everybody scoots right over.


Clearly you don’t drive in Northern Virginia. 
    Half the driving population thinks they are more important… 






CBH99 said:


> Big & loud fire truck?  Between their louder sirens (at least here) and blow horns, everybody got right out of their way!


Self preservation kicks in with large Fire vehicles - but the smaller ones, you will see a lot of folks thinking it’s no big deal. 



lenaitch said:


> Interestingly (to some, I suppose) the codified exemptions under the Ontario HTA for emergency vehicles are limited to posted speed limits and intersections (technically, must stop first).
> 
> The Ontario 'suspect vehicle apprehension' regulation came about after a number of inquests where innocent motorists and pedestrians were killed during pursuits for what were initially relatively minor infractions.  Back when the earth was still cooling and I was on the road, and before any Police Vehicle Operations training or SUI, we would, admittedly, chase at the drop of a hat for any and all reasons.  Luckily, my worst outcome was one wrecker police car (not mine) and a bad guy with a broken are.


A number of states down here started looking at data on chases. 
   I looked at a few recently released reports and they came up with a ‘ no chase policy’ was actually more dangerous to the public. 
   In states or areas that had discontinued ‘high speed’ pursuits the accident and fatalities went up.  

I found a non FOUO 2010 VA Crime Commission release on chases. 

• Last a median of 3 minutes;
• Travel a median of 1.9 miles;
• Involve automobiles (as opposed to trucks,
SUVs, or motorcycles);
• Occur at night;
• Are initiated on dry road conditions;
• Are initiated in light traffic conditions;
• Are monitored by a supervisor;
• Do not involve any additional patrol units or
outside agencies;
• Are initiated due to a traffic violation or
criminal misdemeanor;
• Result in the arrest of the violator(s);
• Result in additional subsequent charges for
the violator; and,
• Rarely result in injury or death to officers
and violators.



			http://vscc.virginia.gov/documents/Law%20enforcement%20Emergency%20Response.pdf
		


I haven’t seen an recently done ones that are approved for public release.


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## Good2Golf (30 May 2022)

Thought we had a Uvalde, TX thread as well, but don’t, so I’ll ‘off-topic’ a bit here.

Unverified backstory to one of the CBP officers who responded to the shooting:

TL;DR: wife/teacher calls him about shooter.  He’s getting a haircut, drops everything, borrows the barber’s gun, races to school, ignores Uvalde Police Chief’s direction to remain outside, gets keys off janitor, enters with fellow off-duty CBP officer and suppresses shooter.





__ https://www.facebook.com/117036525022242/posts/5458875510838290


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## lenaitch (30 May 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Just to clarify terminology, the HTA and *driving legislation in other provinces* is provincial regulatory law; criminal law is federal.  The
> '+50 provision' is part, just part, of the HTA's so-called stunt driving legislation.  As of July 2021, one of the changes was to reduce the threshold to +40kmh if the posted limit is under 80kmh.
> 
> Under criminal law, I suppose it is possible to be charged with Dangerous Driving, Criminal Negligence, etc. at 2kmh over the posted limited if other facts of the case meet the provisions of the particular section.


Just to clarify, I meant to say 'Ontario and other provinces'.


KevinB said:


> Roger that.
> Again being able to articulate the ‘why’ is important.
> 
> I wish Ontario used Blue and Red lights for their Police cars.   Every time I’m going up 401 at what I think is a reasonable speed this car comes up with red lights and gets annoyed when I try to wave him by…
> ‘I’m sorry I thought you where a fireman doesn’t always sit well’. I had to badge my way out of a few incidents.


As others have mentioned, flashing blue and red is permitted in Ontario on all emergency vehicles (police, fire, EMS) as well as a few assorted others, such as Conservation Officers.  Flashing white is pretty much unregulated as is mostly used as an 'attention getter' since it is unfiltered.  Amber is completely unregulated.
Interestingly, blue is still permitted on snow plows, which were the original user, so if it is coming up from behind at a fair clip, it's probably not a snow plow (except in a small northern area I used to work in where one highways operator used to plow at the speed limit, occasionally passing traffic, but I digress). 


Haggis said:


> Not really.  Blue has been shown to better penetrate snow, fog, rain and haze, being visible at longer distances.  It also encourages folks, who otherwise wouldn't, to pull over fearing it's the cops closing in.  Some people think that "it's probably nobody I know, so who cares" when an ambulance approaches.
> 
> Everybody gets out of the way of fire trucks. Fire trucks don't care.  They will crush you.


Another advantage is that it doesn't have a lot of competition from tail and brake lights.  During a stint with planning and research during the 1980s, I was working with 3M to develop a blue road flare.  It enjoyed some interest they both the company guy and myself both transferred and it seems the whole idea died.  Also during that time, we identified a problem during incandescent days where the blue lenses impacted the effective (observed) output intensity.  Given that available power was fairly limited, the only solution was to 'de-saturate' the blue to the point that it was appearing white.  That, and the fact the blue was less effective during bright daylight, particularly bright winter days.  Couple that with dirty lenses and it wasn't enjoying a lot of success.

All that was solved with the advent of LEDs.  The problem now is too much light, particularly at night where multiple vehicles are at road scenes, checkpoints, etc. where it can be blinding.  In addition, some flashing patterns can 'purple out' red and blue.  They are apparently studying reducing warning light output at night but are getting pushback from the 'more is better' crowd.


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## lenaitch (30 May 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Thought we had a Uvalde, TX thread as well, but don’t, so I’ll ‘off-topic’ a bit here.
> 
> Unverified backstory to one of the CBP officers who responded to the shooting:
> 
> ...


The one thing my Canadian brain has a hard time getting around is the sheer number of law enforcement agencies involved in these things in the US.  The Uvalde Consolidated Independent School District has it's own police service, along with the City of Uvalde plus no doubt a county sheriff as well the State Department of Public Safety (uniform and Texas Rangers) and, of course, the Border Patrol.   After the fact, no doubt other federal agencies such as FBI, DOJ, ATF get plugged in.


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## mariomike (30 May 2022)

> Everybody gets out of the way of fire trucks. Fire trucks don't care. They will crush you.



From what I saw, the number of "wake effect" collisions around, but not involving, emergency vehicles was pretty high.


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## RangerRay (30 May 2022)

Odd that OPP uses only red light and Ontario ambulances are going to red an blue. Most provinces I am familiar with restrict red and blues to police/law enforcement. 

What messed me up moving to Manitoba was snow removal equipment using blue and amber.


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## KevinB (30 May 2022)

lenaitch said:


> The one thing my Canadian brain has a hard time getting around is the sheer number of law enforcement agencies involved in these things in the US.  The Uvalde Consolidated Independent School District has it's own police service, along with the City of Uvalde plus no doubt a county sheriff as well the State Department of Public Safety (uniform and Texas Rangers) and, of course, the Border Patrol.   After the fact, no doubt other federal agencies such as FBI, DOJ, ATF get plugged in.


You can’t swing a dead cat without hitting at least 7… 

Where I am, the Sheriffs’ Dept supplies the SRO, school board also supplies a Security Officer (retired Deputy in every case in my county).   Elementary Schools get 2 Security Officers, Middle Schools get 1 SRO and 1 Security Officer, and High Schools get 2 SRO.  

Local Police only service the schools in the town, Sheriffs do all the town and county schools. 
  SO also has a Tac Team 
  State Police - each of VA’s 7 Divisions has a Tac Team.  They have BearCat armored cars. 
  FBI - Regional SWAT and because we are in VA HRT is about a 10 min Blackhawk ride. 

In theory it’s a streamlined Incident Response. 

However I will say that every swinging dick with a badge will show up with an incident relating to their child’s school.   
  Which means you get USSS, USMS, FBI, DoS DSS, HSI, CBP, DEA, ATF, plus others.


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## medicineman (30 May 2022)

KevinB said:


> However I will say that every swinging dick with a badge will show up with an incident relating to their child’s school.
> Which means you get USSS, USMS, FBI, DoS DSS, HSI, CBP, DEA, ATF, plus others.


So many alphabet agencies...


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## KevinB (30 May 2022)

medicineman said:


> So many alphabet agencies...


My tax dollars at work


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## Good2Golf (30 May 2022)

KevinB said:


> My tax dollars at work


…at least you get representation… 😉


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## Haggis (30 May 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Odd that OPP uses only red light and Ontario ambulances are going to red an blue. Most provinces I am familiar with restrict red and blues to police/law enforcement.


O.P.P. use red and blue.  One just went past me.


RangerRay said:


> What messed me up moving to Manitoba was snow removal equipment using blue and amber.


What messed me up in the states was that police use only blue - like our snowplows.


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## KevinB (30 May 2022)

Haggis said:


> O.P.P. use red and blue.  One just went past me.
> 
> What messed me up in the states was that police use only blue - like our snowplows.


Blue Line, Blue Light.


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## mariomike (30 May 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Ontario ambulances are going to red an blue.



Our city paramedic department operates more than just ambulances, in case you see one in your rear-view mirror with the red lights turned on, or working a scene.

Tahoe, Suburban, Silverado, Taurus, Eldorado, MCI, Kodiak, Freightliner, Durastar, Gators, box trucks, Orion, Mercdes-Benz, Crown Vicoria Police Interceptor, OBI, GMC "New Look", Ford C Series, etc...

None of which are Class F ambulances. Some require CZ licence. Some current, some retired after I did.


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## RangerRay (30 May 2022)

> O.P.P. use red and blue.  One just went past me.



Sorry. I read this and misunderstood:



> I wish Ontario used Blue and Red lights for their Police cars. Every time I’m going up 401 at what I think is a reasonable speed this car comes up with red lights and gets annoyed when I try to wave him by…
> ‘I’m sorry I thought you where a fireman doesn’t always sit well’.


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## KevinB (30 May 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Sorry. I read this and misunderstood:


I have not been up since COVID.


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## Kat Stevens (30 May 2022)

Well, if I learned one thing today, it was on this thread. I thought "stunting" was a contraction of "stunned c*nting". knowing is half the battle.


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## CBH99 (30 May 2022)

KevinB said:


> In theory it’s a streamlined Incident Response.
> 
> However I will say that every swinging dick with a badge will show up with an incident relating to their child’s school.
> Which means you get USSS, USMS, FBI, DoS DSS, HSI, CBP, DEA, ATF, plus others


No kidding on so many alphabet agencies!

USSS?  DoS?  HSI?  🤨

The other ones I got…


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## brihard (30 May 2022)

CBH99 said:


> No kidding on so many alphabet agencies!
> 
> USSS?  DoS?  HSI?  🤨
> 
> The other ones I got…


US Secret Service, I think DoS is Department of State Diplomatic Security Service (might be wrong), and I know that HSI is Homeland Security Investigations, which consolidated a few different agencies post-911, and which has a broad and sometimes puzzling mandate.


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## KevinB (30 May 2022)

brihard said:


> US Secret Service, I think DoS is Department of State Diplomatic Security Service (might be wrong), and I know that HSI is Homeland Security Investigations, which consolidated a few different agencies post-911, and which has a broad and sometimes puzzling mandate.


Correct on all accounts. 

Usually they call themselves DS and like to drop the service, but I’m a stickler for formalities


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