# Commuter Cringe driving along the Gardiner in Toronto.



## the 48th regulator (5 Oct 2005)

Found this interesting incident on CP24 today,



> Commuter Cringe
> 
> Commuters driving along the Gardiner Expressway at the end of the Wednesday morning rush hour were met with a nerve-wracking sight - a soldier armed with an assault rifle.
> 
> ...



Geez better see if it was one of the lads down at the unit, wonder why he didn't just hop on the TTC...

dileas

tess


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## MikeM (5 Oct 2005)

Yeah, I'll check that out tonight.

Interesting that he was carrying a dummy rifle.. I didn't know those could be signed out... :


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## The_Falcon (5 Oct 2005)

Yeah I don't quite understand why this particular soilder would have been on the side of the road, by himself with a dummy rifle and full kit.


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## mo-litia (5 Oct 2005)

Looks like most of the people in that Liberal cesspool that is Toronto were just upset at seeing a "peacekeeper" with a weapon!   :dontpanic:

Thank God for Alberta rednecks! ;D


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## The_Falcon (5 Oct 2005)

mo-litia said:
			
		

> Looks like most of the people in that Liberal cesspool that is Toronto were just upset at seeing a "peacekeeper" with a weapon!   :dontpanic:
> 
> Thank God for Alberta rednecks! ;D



Sure, that was the reason :  The fact that he was beside an extremely busy highway, in a major city, by HIMSELF, with what the motorists thought was a fully functional assault rifle had absolutely nothing to do with it.   If I had seen this guy I would have called the cops as well.


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## mo-litia (5 Oct 2005)

I would have liked to have seen the troopie's reaction when the cops showed up for an armed takedown, though.  I bet he got an earful from the po-po and the boys at his unit.


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## Tpr.Orange (5 Oct 2005)

Im really interested to hear what unit this one came from....

Its about time some of the guys started using their big head.... and the public wake up and realize that soldiers happen to work all over canada and sometimes they happen to be armed.  :


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## The_Falcon (5 Oct 2005)

I am guessing from the proximity to Fort York Armoury, the dude was either a Sig, QYR, Royal, or Tor Scot


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## Toronto_NCO (5 Oct 2005)

The "dude" is a Royal.  Infact...it was me.  
The story on CP24 is grossly incorrect (ie: Golan - not Afghanistan, marching - not waiting for a ride).  The Bde Paffo is working on it.  
Without getting to who did what or who didnt do what, I was doing the BFT with a safety vehicle close by.  There was apparently some miscommunication in informing those who needed to know. 

Regardless, the BFT was completed as the whole incident took less than 7 mins of my time.  Surprisingly enough, the media was there before the other officers arrived...

-A


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## Slim (5 Oct 2005)

Were the po-po nice to the guy or was there a scene? Anyone know?


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## Toronto_NCO (5 Oct 2005)

Also, before someone asks:  YES, my unit did know about the BFT today.
-A


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## beach_bum (5 Oct 2005)

That's pretty funny actually.   We've had things like that happen here in Vancouver.


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## Slim (5 Oct 2005)

Toronto_NCO said:
			
		

> Also, before someone asks:   YES, my unit did know about the BFT today.
> -A



I remember doing full ruck and weapon marches during my Mo basic way back in '86 along the waterfront near Ontario Place...I wonder if you could do that now?

With our Liberal PC city council and what not I bet the answer is "No"

Times have changed!


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## mo-litia (5 Oct 2005)

Slim said:
			
		

> I remember doing full ruck and weapon marches during my Mo basic way back in '86 along the waterfront near Ontario Place...I wonder if you could do that now?
> 
> With our Liberal PC city council and what not I bet the answer is "No"
> 
> Times have changed!



Well, you could always move to Alberta, Slim.  Not too many Liberals around this here neck of the woods. :blotto:


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## Toronto_NCO (5 Oct 2005)

The police officers did their job as I would have if I was in their shoes (not knowning who I was, or if the the weapon was real/loaded/unloaded/dummy). 
They were fine w/me during the whole thing....Like I said, I was on my way fairly quick.


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## D-n-A (5 Oct 2005)

Slim said:
			
		

> I remember doing full ruck and weapon marches during my Mo basic way back in '86 along the waterfront near Ontario Place...I wonder if you could do that now?


During a reserve BMQ/SQ course run in Vancouver(summer '03) they were doing ruck marches an FFO marches/runs around Vancouver. Scared a bunch of people though, haha.


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## Blindspot (5 Oct 2005)

MikeL said:
			
		

> During a reserve BMQ/SQ course run in Vancouver(summer '03) they were doing ruck marches an FFO marches/runs around Vancouver. Scared a bunch of people though, haha.



Summer SYEP 88 - we used to do training all over Toronto. We got in some NBC training by walking through the Don River. In fact, we marched with full kit and rifles from Fort York to High Park and commenced training in the midst of picnicers. Commandeered a couple of ham sandwiches for lunch.


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## Brad Sallows (5 Oct 2005)

Don't feel badly. I once had soldiers outside doing dry training with weapons at Jericho Det during the Clinton-Chretien summit (if I recall the event correctly) in Vancouver. The authorities frowned, so we had to revert to indoor training.  I can't remember if that was the same day the two illustrious politicians were due to make there way to or from Point Grey via 4th Ave (on which Jericho Det fronts)...


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## Pte_Martin (5 Oct 2005)

In Kitchener whenever we train outside we always get the police called on us... you'd think that the neighbours would realize it's just us but i guess they still call just in case


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## Baloo (5 Oct 2005)

Slim said:
			
		

> I remember doing full ruck and weapon marches during my Mo basic way back in '86 along the waterfront near Ontario Place...I wonder if you could do that now?
> 
> With our Liberal PC city council and what not I bet the answer is "No"
> 
> Times have changed!



Not true. Surprisingly. 

With the TorScots, we can do ruck / FFO marches along the waterfront (including right in front of Ontario Place) with C7s and there has never been a problem. Sure, its usually dark out and not that many people in the area, but still, never had problems.. Hell, we've even done a march in Mississauga with rifles. Sure, a lot of people gawked and walked out of buildings to watch us, but overall, there hasn't been a problem with armed soldiers in the area.


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## Jinxed (5 Oct 2005)

Last year we did section attack training on the front lawn of Jericho, right beside the sidewalk of 4th Ave and people just waved, honked, and one carfull of oriental kids and seniors stopped and took pictures


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## Redeye (5 Oct 2005)

Jinxed said:
			
		

> Last year we did section attack training on the front lawn of Jericho, right beside the sidewalk of 4th Ave and people just waved, honked, and one carfull of oriental kids and seniors stopped and took pictures



We used to do all sorts of training throughout the city, in parks, etc.  It was fine until some dumb hippie wrote all sorts of complaining letters, now we've had to stop until we sort out all the paperwork with the city to continue.  We did an urban patrol through a creek that goes through downtown, mostly underground.  All sorts of folks on a patio looking down on it were startled by a buch of people moving up the creek with rifles and red lights, until one of us explained what was going on!


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## patt (5 Oct 2005)

not really military but back when i was in cadets we did the freedom of the city parade in Barrie Ont. the faces people made seeing a bunch of kids with rifles and ammuntion (Blanks)  was priceless....


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## Baloo (5 Oct 2005)

patty said:
			
		

> not really military but back when i was in cadets we did the freedom of the city parade in Barrie Ont. the faces people made seeing a bunch of kids with rifles and ammuntion (Blanks)  was priceless....



Why would you have blanks for a parade?

Someone explain that to me.


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## Slim (5 Oct 2005)

Baloo said:
			
		

> Why would you have blanks for a parade?
> 
> Someone explain that to me.



Actually I remember from my time in Sea Cadets (chokes back embarrassed cough) that on Rememberance Day we did the Cenotaph guard duty and did fire a volley of blanks with the .303 Lee Enfield rifles that the cadets in Ontario used to have.


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## Baloo (5 Oct 2005)

Slim said:
			
		

> Actually I remember from my time in Sea Cadets (chokes back embarrassed cough) that on Rememberance Day we did the Cenotaph guard duty and did fire a volley of blanks with the .303 Lee Enfield rifles that the cadets in Ontario used to have.



Huh. Well, the more you know. 

I personally think it would look ridiculous, what with the BFA and all. But to each their own. Unless the .303 doesn't have a big, yellow metal piece...


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## Pte_Martin (5 Oct 2005)

when your on parade you don't have the BFA on


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## Slim (5 Oct 2005)

Baloo said:
			
		

> Huh. Well, the more you know.
> 
> I personally think it would look ridiculous, what with the BFA and all. But to each their own. Unless the .303 doesn't have a big, yellow metal piece...



Nope...No BFA...They just stuck the muzzle high over their heads and let go...

Those old things made quite a crack when they went off.

I wonder if they still do that?


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## Pte_Martin (5 Oct 2005)

In our unit we were supposed to have blanks for our change of command parade  but at the last minute the Mp's cancelled it they said there was too many people there... i think that was there excuse, we only use blanks for big parades... change of colour and command parades


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## Glorified Ape (5 Oct 2005)

mo-litia said:
			
		

> Looks like most of the people in that Liberal cesspool that is Toronto were just upset at seeing a "peacekeeper" with a weapon!  :dontpanic:
> 
> Thank God for Alberta rednecks! ;D



I take it from the emoticons that you're kidding. Please say you're kidding.


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## vangemeren (6 Oct 2005)

It's my third year of university and I'm still not used to the fact that there aren't troops marching down the streets, army vehicles that say "student driver" on a yellow sign dangling on the front and back, helicopters/planes flying overhead, and big kabooms from the artillery. (and more that I can't remember now)

I do occasionally see a Herc fly over, but it just isn't the same...


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## Haggis (6 Oct 2005)

Baloo said:
			
		

> Why would you have blanks for a parade?
> 
> Someone explain that to me.



It's called a "Feu de Joie".  Quite common at funerals, too.


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## Redeye (6 Oct 2005)

Baloo said:
			
		

> Huh. Well, the more you know.
> 
> I personally think it would look ridiculous, what with the BFA and all. But to each their own. Unless the .303 doesn't have a big, yellow metal piece...



A Lee-Enfield shouldn't need a BFA, since it isn't gas-operated.

When you have a firing party on parade, they never use BFA's.  On the FN's as I understand it, they simply turned the gas to zero because recock the weapon as part of the drills (with the C7 the gas isn't adjustable, but you still recock the weapon manually).


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## Haggis (6 Oct 2005)

Redeye said:
			
		

> A Lee-Enfield shouldn't need a BFA, since it isn't gas-operated.
> 
> When you have a firing party on parade, they never use BFA's.   On the FN's as I understand it, they simply turned the gas to zero because recock the weapon as part of the drills (with the C7 the gas isn't adjustable, but you still recock the weapon manually).



With the FNC1A1, turning the gas to zero increased the amount of gas directed at the piston. (that was the second IA drill).  For a Feu de Joie, the gas plug was reversed, allowing no gas to enter the piston chamber.

On either weapon, the function of the BFA is to contain sufficient gas pressure in the barrel (and gas tube or gas piston rod chamber) to cause the action to cycle.  Remove the BFA and it's a single shot weapon.


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## Fishbone Jones (6 Oct 2005)

To put this back on track.........

Whenever we are going to train outside, where it might upset the population, we simply call the police first and give them a heads up. They can then respond with " Yes Ma'am, we're aware of the military training exercise going on in the area, and there's no cause for alarm."

Everyone has Ops and PAFFO staff. Use them.


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## kincanucks (6 Oct 2005)

Never assume the authorities are in know after only one phone call.  Call them several times before the event, send them a letter and call them the day of the event.  It is funny how soon they forget what you have told them.


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## career_radio-checker (6 Oct 2005)

And make sure you ask for the police officer's name who you talk to. Its amasing how much more responsive people are as soon as they realize that they may be held accountable  ;D.


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## Steel Badger (6 Oct 2005)

I remember some years back running a weekend JR Ledaers ex down at the  Niagara on the Lake Trg area....
And having a brand new OPP Officer drive by at night, see the gate to Area C open, and, convinced that the local civvies had entered DND property to party, drive into the area with her cruiser (no Lights of course).....

Right into the ambush laid across the "MSR" by our guys........(.the CQ / OPFOR was late arriving).......

She got lit up...then turned on her cherries and put 'er in "R" for rocket.....


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## COBRA-6 (6 Oct 2005)

recceguy said:
			
		

> To put this back on track.........
> 
> Whenever we are going to train outside, where it might upset the population, we simply call the police first and give them a heads up. They can then respond with " Yes Ma'am, we're aware of the military training exercise going on in the area, and there's no cause for alarm."
> 
> Everyone has Ops and PAFFO staff. Use them.



It was the same procedure up in Sudbury. The police, like us, have a CP. A call to the duty sergeant is all it takes to avoid confusion...

Northerners are also not quite as jumpy as those in 'tarana


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## Redeye (6 Oct 2005)

Haggis said:
			
		

> With the FNC1A1, turning the gas to zero increased the amount of gas directed at the piston. (that was the second IA drill).   For a Feu de Joie, the gas plug was reversed, allowing no gas to enter the piston chamber.
> 
> On either weapon, the function of the BFA is to contain sufficient gas pressure in the barrel (and gas tube or gas piston rod chamber) to cause the action to cycle.   Remove the BFA and it's a single shot weapon.



Right right - I knew it involved "turning off" the gas.


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## mo-litia (6 Oct 2005)

Glorified Ape said:
			
		

> I take it from the emoticons that you're kidding. Please say you're kidding.



 ;D I was kidding about everything EXCEPT for calling Toronto a cesspool of Liberalism and thanking the Almighty for Albertan rednecks-we keep the rest of the people in the country at least partially grounded in reality.  ^-^


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## B.McTeer (6 Oct 2005)

Steel Badger said:
			
		

> I remember some years back running a weekend JR Ledaers ex down at the   Niagara on the Lake Trg area....
> And having a brand new OPP Officer drive by at night, see the gate to Area C open, and, convinced that the local civvies had entered DND property to party, drive into the area with her cruiser (no Lights of course).....
> 
> Right into the ambush laid across the "MSR" by our guys........(.the CQ / OPFOR was late arriving).......
> ...


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## shaboing (7 Oct 2005)

Redeye said:
			
		

> We used to do all sorts of training throughout the city, in parks, etc.   It was fine until some dumb hippie wrote all sorts of complaining letters, now we've had to stop until we sort out all the paperwork with the city to continue.   We did an urban patrol through a creek that goes through downtown, mostly underground.   All sorts of folks on a patio looking down on it were startled by a buch of people moving up the creek with rifles and red lights, until one of us explained what was going on!



any idea when were gonna be allowed back outside again sir?


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## Redeye (7 Oct 2005)

ShaBoing said:
			
		

> any idea when were gonna be allowed back outside again sir?



Not a clue.  There is work in progress on the matter, on memoranda of understanding and such things with the city that take care of the issues that were raised, and we should be back in business so to speak.  The Ops Cell is working out all the details.


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## MPIKE (7 Oct 2005)

kincanucks said:
			
		

> Never assume the authorities are in know after only one phone call.  Call them several times before the event, send them a letter and call them the day of the event.  It is funny how soon they forget what you have told them.



I don't think I have met one reservist who hasn't had a story like this one at one time or another.  I have been on both sides of this myself.

Its not neccesarily that they have forgotten but rather someone on our end hasn't spoken to the right person or it is almost always the way the info was delivered over the phone.  The lack of detail of what and where the training is leads to the confusion.  "Hi it's the army calling we are going to be training outside today I'm just letting you know..click" ...doesn't cut it. and yes I'm speaking from first hand experience on that one.

Always ask for a police supervisor, many times the initial person you are speaking to is a civilian calltaker. If you have called the local station confirm that your message has been forwarded to the Communications/Dispatch Branch so it is dessiminated asap to the coppers on the road.  Lastly, double double check with each other before you leave that someone has called in. 

Unfortunately, I have met many civies who have acquired all the wannabe pieces of kit to look like a soldier of today.  Thankfully, our recruiting procedures have filtered them out. However, those same idiots " :threat:" wish they were you and like to run around with look-a-like c7 paint ball guns and cadpat from Ebay.  And it's because of these "special people" that the police are required to drop by and check you out.  

For safety sake, if you are stopped  don't jerk around.. You know you are training then but also know that the police are not in "training mode" when they show up. With any luck, you'll have a fellow soldier wearing blue that day that will be able to clear the matter up quickly. Remember the public at large will always be ignorant to the fact of what the army is and what it does.  This is a fact of life.


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## Trinity (7 Oct 2005)

UGH....

A about 6 years ago??  I was teaching on a Medical QL3 in Toronto.

We did a BFT downtown early Saturday morning, with webbing helmet and rifle.

We wrote the police and let them know what we were doing but still someone called
it in and they showed up.  

I don't blame the police at all.  In fact he was quite calm when he spoke to me, although
he was in plain clothes and I thought it was some civie that wanted to jump me for my
rifle since I had to fall back (shut up tess!!!) with a candidate that wasn't doing well.  

But yeah.. the info never got passed down to the guys on the beat.  I think they figured
when 40 plus people are walking downtown at 6 am with rifles either its army or they need
one heck of a SWAT team.  

And for Baloo... this WAS outside FYI / CNE property... although at TSR they have been lucky
not to have any incidents lately.

Better for them to error on the right side.  

GOOD JOB Toronto NCO!!!  seriously..  I've been trying to defend you for a while now when
ppl ask me.. but i didn't know exactly what was up.  More proof of how incompetent the media is.


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## teddy49 (7 Oct 2005)

Redeye said:
			
		

> A Lee-Enfield shouldn't need a BFA, since it isn't gas-operated.
> 
> When you have a firing party on parade, they never use BFA's.   On the FN's as I understand it, they simply turned the gas to zero because recock the weapon as part of the drills (with the C7 the gas isn't adjustable, but you still recock the weapon manually).



Sorry to rehijack this but I couldn't let it go.  I'm sure Redeye knows this, and just didn't say it clearly, but the Lee Enfield is a Bolt Action rifle.  It is a manual repeater.  At least to me, Redeye's post left open the interpretation that the Enfield could be operated by other means, ie; Recoil operation like the .50 cal machine gun and the C-5 GPMG.  I'm saddened that anyone on this board would need to be informed of this, but I do realize that there are people on here who's first exposure to firearms was, QL-2 or BMQ and the C-7.  Or cadets who have had no exposure to firearms.  Again sorry for the hijack, but it breaks the heart :crybaby: of a proper Alberta Gun Toting Redneck.


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## Baloo (7 Oct 2005)

Ack. 

Guys, I wasn't even thinking about using blanks for salutes. I guess that was too obvious.

Carry on.


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## Slim (7 Oct 2005)

> just didn't say it clearly, but the Lee Enfield is a Bolt Action rifle.  It is a manual repeater.



done and dusted.

move on.


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## Old Ranger (8 Oct 2005)

When on any trg "Off Property" you always need to be extra aware.

We made the mistake of not telling my family or neighbours of our little midnight swareh that had two Patrols run into each other at the end of my driveway.  Almost went really bad when my 16 year old brother got the drop on my Sgt. and Lt. with his Shotgun.
Police showed up and everything went smooth.  My brother didn't join up because of the incident.  Policies changed to inform the populous of further training (Local Police were properly informed prior).  No worries about my brother being mentally scarred, he's a "Super" Tac officer now.

B


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## Pencil Tech (10 Oct 2005)

Glorified Ape said:
			
		

> I take it from the emoticons that you're kidding. Please say you're kidding.



No, he always says stuff like that. Seriously though,here in Edmonton, people are very used to seeing the army. Last spring, Patricias did FIBUA training in the north end of the city, off the base. I remember coming back from the plant nursery and there was a LAV3 blocking off 66th Street with troops in fighting order around it.

That's Edmonton. I have heard more than once from pers from 1VP and Strats that when they were based in Calgary they used to get that kind hostile reaction when they did BFT's etc. So you can't generalize about Alberta (my probably losing battle). But Edmonton is Army Town.


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## Slim (10 Oct 2005)

Pencil Tech said:
			
		

> I have heard more than once from pers from 1VP and Strats that when they were based in Calgary they used to get that kind hostile reaction when they did BFT's etc.



I remember not only BFT's but also the friday 'RecceRun" around the Glenmore Resoivouir...Not once did I ever see or hear of anyone saying anything bad about the Sqn during those training evolutions.

All were done with FFO and weapons.

Its only in Toronto that I've ever seen people acting out around the CF...and have never seen the TPS show up before!

Times are changing...and not for the good.

Slim


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## George Wallace (10 Oct 2005)

Don't forget Slim....many people in Toronto don't even know we have an Armed Forces.   :


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## Slim (10 Oct 2005)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Don't forget Slim....many people in Toronto don't even know we have an Armed Forces.     :



My opinion of those 'many people' is actually quite low! Sometimes living in this spoiled city (I actually live outside town but come here to work) gets the better of me.

Anyone hiring BG's in Calgary?


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## Glorified Ape (10 Oct 2005)

There's that Jan Brady again... Toronto, Toronto, Toronto!!! That's ok... when we remember you exist, we don't hate you for it.


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## Infanteer (11 Oct 2005)

If it wasn't for Toronto, everybody would be dumping on either Vancouver or Montreal - so hats off to Hogtown!


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