# Which reservist trades have training closest to regular force training?



## nick_the_guy (13 Nov 2012)

Just wondering what are the trades where reservist and regular force training (given the same rank) are most similar.  I read here that med techs don't receive the same type and level of medical training as regular force members and armored recce reservists train on G-wagons rather than Coyotes. How about the opposite, what are the reservist trades where they could step in and join the regular forces with mininal work-up?


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## Jarnhamar (13 Nov 2012)

infantry


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## Eye In The Sky (13 Nov 2012)

I was thinking RMS Clerk, Supply Tech (minus their software MIMMS or whatever its called) or Cook.  Those are WAGs of course.

The differences in Armd Recce go beyond just the vehicles used.  Surv tasks in a Reg Tp vice Res Tp...huge.  1 example just to make a point.


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## my72jeep (13 Nov 2012)

CFSEME used to have the same training standard for all.


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## MikeL (13 Nov 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> infantry



Not really IMO, for NCMs there are 3-4 Supplemental training blocks a Reservist would have to do after DP1 to be equiv to Reg Force.  Reading the latest QS for DP1 Infantry there is no CQC in Reserve DP1,  no live fire above pairs, etc.  I know in the past if a Reserve DP1 Infantryman wanted to go Reg Force they would have to do the Reg Force DP1 course unless they had a tour.  Not sure if it is the same now.

As well I don't believe Reserve Infantry Officers are required to do DP1.2


AFAIK,  the Air Force Reserve and possibly Navy do the same QL3 courses as Regular Force.  I haven't looked at the QS but I assume ACISS  DP1 would be pretty close if not the same(just split into 2 mods?)


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## Allgunzblazing (13 Nov 2012)

What is the reason for the difference in training? 

Doesn't it make sense to have the same length of training for everyone regardless of component - that way transition from one component to the other will be seamless.


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## MikeL (13 Nov 2012)

Allgunzblazing,  a big issue I would assume for that is training length.  Reservists may only have 1-2 months to do their DP1/QL3 course in the summer,  some Reg Force DP1/QL3s can be 2+ months long.


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## Jarnhamar (13 Nov 2012)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> Not really IMO,  there are 3-4 Supplemental training blocks a Reservist would have to do after DP1 to be equiv to Reg Force.  Reading the latest QS for DP1 Infantry there is no CQC in Reserve DP1,  no live fire above pairs, etc



Fair enough. From my personal observations I think at the private/(non-senior) corporal level the soldier skills are pretty much the same and the training is close enough that a res can easily integrate into working along side the regs.

During live fire jungle lanes regular force privates and corporals are making the same mistakes as the reserve counterparts.  Not to mention I've seen a lot of live fire in the reserve's (section and platoon level), I guess it's just not taught at their DP1 is what you meant?

Of course the regular force have access to way more specialty courses but I don't feel over all there is that much of a gap in the context of what the OP appeared to be asking.


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## Allgunzblazing (13 Nov 2012)

Skeletor, that is exactly the question I'm asking - why not have everyone attend basic at St. Jean and have everyone attend their trade courses together? 

I can understand that some reservists may like to attend the courses in blocks because of work commitments. Plus reg force personnel should get preference when courses are loaded. But I don't understand why the duration of basic training varies between the two components (for a number of occupations). 

EDIT - my apologies for digressing from the original topic. Can someone please PM me the reason why basic training differs between the two components.


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## Eye In The Sky (13 Nov 2012)

Allgunzblazing said:
			
		

> What is the reason for the difference in training?
> 
> Doesn't it make sense to have the same length of training for everyone regardless of component - that way transition from one component to the other will be seamless.



Also, for lack of a better term or terms, the "mandate" of the Reg Frce and Res Frce at peacetime are quite different.  Thats a very simplified version of it.


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## TwoTonShackle (13 Nov 2012)

In line with the "One Navy", as of this year Regular Force and Reserve Force Boatswains will undergo the same QL3/QL5 and QL6.  The courses are Mod'ed so that a Class A reservist can can complete a 7 month QL5 over 2-4 years.  The Regular Force Bosn's I've talked to about this think it's only logical while the reservists think it's lunacy.  Scheduling and juggling Mods will be interesting.  Currently it's only on par up to DP3 as the Reserves had never "bought in" to the QL7.


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## brihard (13 Nov 2012)

Allgunzblazing said:
			
		

> Skeletor, that is exactly the question I'm asking - why not have everyone attend basic at St. Jean and have everyone attend their trade courses together?
> 
> I can understand that some reservists may like to attend the courses in blocks because of work commitments. Plus reg force personnel should get preference when courses are loaded. But I don't understand why the duration of basic training varies between the two components (for a number of occupations).



Because with many reservists joining between Gr 11 and 12 (maybe a two month gap) or balancing the reserves with full time college or university, we literally cannot run it that way. The majority of our troops would spend too little time past the 'operationally functional point' in a trade to be much never, mind getting qualified through PLQ to subsequently instruct.

We accept that there is a skill delta in the reserves, and that it is generally necessary for most reserve trades to be viable. That difference is made up in workup training before deployment, or to a lesser extent in subsequent reserve collective training.


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## MikeL (13 Nov 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Not to mention I've seen a lot of live fire in the reserve's (section and platoon level), I guess it's just not taught at their DP1 is what you meant?



Rog,  according to the QS Reserve DP1 students will only do live fire at the pair level.  Anything higher would be done during unit training along with the  supplemental training requirements.




			
				ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Of course the regular force have access to way more specialty courses



I assume you are referring to courses like Sniper,  FAC,  and LAV courses?


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## PuckChaser (13 Nov 2012)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> I haven't looked at the QS but I assume ACISS  DP1 would be pretty close if not the same(just split into 2 mods?)



SigOp/Lineman used to be the same course just split into mods. Now they've decided that reservists won't get the same training as a RegF member because theres a lot of kit they won't ever see unless they're on callout and the RegF training is too long for reservists (5 summers to get them to DP2 and not even have a PLQ). Not sure how this is going to bode for people doing CTs, as a PLAR used to just be a formality.


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## MikeL (13 Nov 2012)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> SigOp/Lineman used to be the same course just split into mods. Now they've decided that reservists won't get the same training as a RegF member because theres a lot of kit they won't ever see unless they're on callout and the RegF training is too long for reservists (5 summers to get them to DP2 and not even have a PLQ). Not sure how this is going to bode for people doing CTs, as a PLAR used to just be a formality.




Rog,  I thought they would have kept doing the mods like they did for the QL3 courses.  If they could split a 6 month QL3 into mods for Reservists I don't see why they couldn't do that for ACISS as the DP1 course is pretty short comparatively.  The DP1.1(?) I can see being a issue due to the kit.


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## Eaglelord17 (13 Nov 2012)

I know for support trades in the Army Reserve that the training is the same as there Reg Force counterparts for the most part (some are done in mods though)


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## brihard (13 Nov 2012)

Eaglelord17 said:
			
		

> I know for support trades in the Army Reserve that the training is the same as there Reg Force counterparts for the most part (some are done in mods though)



You know this, or you suspect it to be the case? 'Support trades' is very broad.

MPs? Nope. Medics? Nope. Those are the most blatant inequalities. Many other trades have lesser but still present training deltas.


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## PuckChaser (13 Nov 2012)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> Rog,  I thought they would have kept doing the mods like they did for the QL3 courses.  If they could split a 6 month QL3 into mods for Reservists I don't see why they couldn't do that for ACISS as the DP1 course is pretty short comparatively.  The DP1.1(?) I can see being a issue due to the kit.



The main issues there were dealing with was kit and skill fade. Guys would learn EPLRS and 117F and the like and never see the stuff again. They promised someone important when this ACISS thing came together that they could shorten the training time, then realized the mountain of material they would have to cram in, so they hacked and slashed. This info is a few years out of date (implementation time), so they may have changed thinking, but I strongly doubt it.


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## Eaglelord17 (13 Nov 2012)

Brihard said:
			
		

> You know this, or you suspect it to be the case? 'Support trades' is very broad.
> 
> MPs? Nope. Medics? Nope. Those are the most blatant inequalities. Many other trades have lesser but still present training deltas.



Sorry for any confusion when I was thinking support trades I should have said Supply Tech, RMS Clerk, Veh Tech, and Weapons Tech, the Service Battalion Trades. For example I know for Supply Tech QL3 is only 1 or 2 weeks shorter than the Reg Force QL3, and for any trades course for the above trades they are all done in Borden (at least for Ontario) to maintain the skills to a high standard as it is more or less expected that your skills mesh with the Reg Force as your using/fixing the same equipment.


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## MikeL (13 Nov 2012)

Eaglelord17 said:
			
		

> for the above trades they are all done in Borden (at least for Ontario)



AFAIK majority of LOG* and EME pers will attend their career courses at their respectful school in CFB Borden.  There have been some courses outsourced to another location though.


*I believe Traffic Techs do portions of their career courses in Borden as well as Trenton.


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## Nfld Sapper (13 Nov 2012)

CFSME DP1 CBT ENGR same except for the last 2 MODS which are optional for P.Res, DP 3B Part 1  Recce Sgt/Ops NCO and Part 2 TP WO which are Reg Force courses....


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## Allgunzblazing (13 Nov 2012)

What about Arty O - apart from Basic (which I know is five weeks), are the remaining phases the same for candidates from both components?


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## FJAG (13 Nov 2012)

The legal branch - not a 'trade' per se but an officer classification.

All legal officers, reg and res have to have completed law school, a term of articles and be called to the bar in their province. Once they join the branch they have to complete the same curriculum of legal training such as basic legal ops law, miljustice, mil admin law etc courses.

Experience wise both reg and res force legal officer work in the field of law full time. There is of course a delta that develops as reg f legal officers work full time in the field of military law while res offrs work primarily in various civilian law fields.

One major area where some reserve legal officers have much greater experience is in the field of criminal law. 

Reg f legal officers generally spend only three of four years in the military justice field before transferring to another speciality. Their cases are mostly low to medium level offences. On the other hand several res legal officers practice their entire lives as Fed Dept of justice, provincial crown or defence counsel and often have handled numerous very serious offences including homicides and sexual assaults.


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## Jarnhamar (13 Nov 2012)

In dealing with both reserve and reg force clerks it appeared (to me) that there were significant gaps in training between RMS clerks and reserve clerks would have a huge learning curve to get brought up to speed on regular force clerky stuff as far as class C and full time stuff goes.


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## George Wallace (14 Nov 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> In dealing with both reserve and reg force clerks it appeared (to me) that there were significant gaps in training between RMS clerks and reserve clerks would have a huge learning curve to get brought up to speed on regular force clerky stuff as far as class C and full time stuff goes.



At the same time Reg Force RMS clerks posted to Reserve units have significant gaps in their training.  With the amalgamation of the Admin and Fin Trades into this RMS Trade, the CF now has an over abundance of clerks who really are not competent.  The RMS Career Mgr does them no favours by posting Cpls to Reserve units, with a promotion on posting, to become CC of a unit (or more) without their PLQ.  Often they don't have full exposure to their (new) Trade (Reg Force), nor the experience, and now they are expected to know the Reserve Admin System and Reserve Pay System.  These people are being set up for failure that early in their careers.  

So you see.....It works both ways.


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## PanaEng (14 Nov 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> At the same time Reg Force RMS clerks posted to Reserve units have significant gaps in their training.  With the amalgamation of the Admin and Fin Trades into this RMS Trade, the CF now has an over abundance of clerks who really are not competent.  The RMS Career Mgr does them no favours by posting Cpls to Reserve units, with a promotion on posting, to become CC of a unit (or more) without their PLQ.  Often they don't have full exposure to their (new) Trade (Reg Force), nor the experience, and now they are expected to know the Reserve Admin System and Reserve Pay System.  These people are being set up for failure that early in their careers.
> 
> So you see.....It works both ways.


Absolutely right and it is seen countless times that a reg F, newly promoted, new CC in a Res  unit becomes overwhelmed very quickly.  We have been lucky in my unit that the last few clerks posted to the unit have been very quick learners and very capable (and wiling to work almost 14hr days for some stretches of time to get things under control). In a Reg force OR you can have "cells" dedicated to a certain admin task, while in the Res world you don't have all the staff plus added responsibilities; the new clerks have to learn to do everything pretty quickly.


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## George Wallace (14 Nov 2012)

You have been lucky.  The last four that we have had since 2006 have been quite the opposite.


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## jeffb (14 Nov 2012)

Allgunzblazing said:
			
		

> What about Arty O - apart from Basic (which I know is five weeks), are the remaining phases the same for candidates from both components?



In addition to BMOQ-L which is common in length to both, Artillery Officer will both do DP 1.1. This course is modded into 5, 2 week mods. Reg Force officers then do DP 1.2 which is another 10 weeks although it is unmodded. The modular aspect of DP 1.1 is really only for reservists as Reg Force member who is recoursed is loaded back at day one for DP 1.1. Doing DP 1.1 in 2 week chunks would be a sheer nightmare and frankly I think it would be very hard to be successful given the skill fade. Most people I have talked to either do it in one or two summers.


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## nick_the_guy (14 Nov 2012)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I was thinking RMS Clerk, Supply Tech (minus their software MIMMS or whatever its called) or Cook.  Those are WAGs of course.



Sorry, but what's a "WAG"?


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## Eye In The Sky (14 Nov 2012)

Wild-a$$-guess  ;D


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## Remius (14 Nov 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> You have been lucky.  The last four that we have had since 2006 have been quite the opposite.



I echo that.  We haven't had a "successful" CC in a while or that has done a complete posting.  ironically our reserve clerks (many not clk qualified" do a better job or are the go to people.  Ideally and I have seen it, posting in a CT from the reserves to a reserve unit can work quite well.  They have that expertise and are much more suited to work in that environment.


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## Jarnhamar (14 Nov 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> At the same time Reg Force RMS clerks posted to Reserve units have significant gaps in their training.  With the amalgamation of the Admin and Fin Trades into this RMS Trade, the CF now has an over abundance of clerks who really are not competent.  The RMS Career Mgr does them no favours by posting Cpls to Reserve units, with a promotion on posting, to become CC of a unit (or more) without their PLQ.  Often they don't have full exposure to their (new) Trade (Reg Force), nor the experience, and now they are expected to know the Reserve Admin System and Reserve Pay System.  These people are being set up for failure that early in their careers.
> 
> So you see.....It works both ways.



Both ways for sure though I would go so far as to suggest that the learning curve thrown by reserve units is largely because they may have their own way of doing things not necessarily by the book.   Definitely agree about not posting cpl's to reserve units as clerks.


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## Allgunzblazing (14 Nov 2012)

jeffb said:
			
		

> In addition to BMOQ-L which is common in length to both, Artillery Officer will both do DP 1.1. This course is modded into 5, 2 week mods. Reg Force officers then do DP 1.2 which is another 10 weeks although it is unmodded. The modular aspect of DP 1.1 is really only for reservists as Reg Force member who is recoursed is loaded back at day one for DP 1.1. Doing DP 1.1 in 2 week chunks would be a sheer nightmare and frankly I think it would be very hard to be successful given the skill fade. Most people I have talked to either do it in one or two summers.



jeffb, thank you for the info. Can you or someone else provide clarification regarding the following - 

1. Do Reserve Arty Officers have the option of completing DP 1.1 in one go?;
2. If a Reserve candidate who's chosen to take do the course in one go, fails, say the 4th or 5th module - can that candidate be given the option of starting all over again? Or is this a RTU situation and the candidate gets to complete that particular mod with another platoon?;
3. Is it possible for Reservists to attend the DP 1.2 course?;
4. Apart for BMOQ-L, DP 1.1 and 1.2 are there any other Reg Force courses which are available for Reservists in the Arty Officer occupation?;
5. With regards to annual training exercises - if a Reserve Officer wishes to attend an annual training exercise attached to a Reg Force unit, does that officer have an option of putting in a request through the chain of command? I mean will such a request be entertained? 

Thank you all for taking the time to answer my questions. 

Cheers.


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## George Wallace (14 Nov 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Both ways for sure though I would go so far as to suggest that the learning curve thrown by reserve units is largely because they may have their own way of doing things not necessarily by the book.



Actually there are a lot of differences.  The Reserve Pay System is completely different.  The Reserve Pension Plan is nowhere that of the Reg Force Pension Plan.  There are NO Career Managers in the Reserves, so PDRs and PERs are all handles differently adminstratively.  Route Letters, Claims, etc. are all managed differently.  Class B and Class C SOUs (contracts for a simpler, but incorrect, term) are not seen in the Reg Force.  There are quite a few administration issues not common to both; unique to each.  It is not always "they don't necessarily do things by the book" as there is no legalitiy in not doing it by the book.  "The book", however, has "different authors" and chapters.


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## jeffb (14 Nov 2012)

Allgunzblazing said:
			
		

> jeffb, thank you for the info. Can you or someone else provide clarification regarding the following -
> 
> 1. Do Reserve Arty Officers have the option of completing DP 1.1 in one go?;



Yes. Many do. 



> 2. If a Reserve candidate who's chosen to take do the course in one go, fails, say the 4th or 5th module - can that candidate be given the option of starting all over again? Or is this a RTU situation and the candidate gets to complete that particular mod with another platoon?;



Honestly I do not know the answer to this for certain but my educated guess is that it is situationally dependent and the Commandant of the school will make that decision on a case by case basis. 



> 3. Is it possible for Reservists to attend the DP 1.2 course?;



Once again I don't know for certain but I have never heard of one doing it unless there was a good reason such as they were deploying. I know several reservists who have component transferred to the Reg Force that have gone back to do DP 1.2. 



> 4. Apart for BMOQ-L, DP 1.1 and 1.2 are there any other Reg Force courses which are available for Reservists in the Arty Officer occupation?;



Yes. There are a whole host of courses that are offered to Reservists in either the same form as the Reg Force course or in an abridged fashion. The FOO course, BC's course, etc. 



> 5. With regards to annual training exercises - if a Reserve Officer wishes to attend an annual training exercise attached to a Reg Force unit, does that officer have an option of putting in a request through the chain of command? I mean will such a request be entertained?



Short answer is probably not and I have never seen it happen nor have I heard of it happening. The Reg Force does not operate under the same training schedule as the reserves and the qualification standards are different. For example, to act as a safety officer in the Reserves you need to be qualified DP 1.1. In the Reg Force it is DP 1.2. That is not the big limiting factor though. Most Reg Force exercises are there to do collective training. As you as a Reservist are not part of the Battery/ Regiment being trained, there would be little value to bringing you along. 

This does not mean that the Reg Force and the Reserves do not train together however. When they do, it is usually at the unit / sub-unit level. For example, a Reg Force Battery may be supporting a Reserve Brigades exercise. There are also Regular Army officers and NCOs who are posted to Reserve units to provide support. 



> Thank you all for taking the time to answer my questions.
> Cheers.


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## Allgunzblazing (14 Nov 2012)

jeffb, thank you so much for your detailed responce. 

Much appreciated  .


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## Eowyn (14 Nov 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Actually there are a lot of differences.  The Reserve Pay System is completely different.  The Reserve Pension Plan is nowhere that of the Reg Force Pension Plan.  There are NO Career Managers in the Reserves, so PDRs and PERs are all handles differently adminstratively.  Route Letters, Claims, etc. are all managed differently.  Class B and Class C SOUs (contracts for a simpler, but incorrect, term) are not seen in the Reg Force.  There are quite a few administration issues not common to both; unique to each.  It is not always "they don't necessarily do things by the book" as there is no legalitiy in not doing it by the book.  "The book", however, has "different authors" and chapters.



And then there is the promotion paperwork, NES and ED&T that is not seen in the Reg F.


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## Snakedoc (14 Nov 2012)

FJAG said:
			
		

> Reg f legal officers generally spend only three of four years in the military justice field before transferring to another speciality.



Out of curiousity what type of specialities do Reg Force legal officers often transfer to?  Do you mean they transfer out of the legal branch and into other GSO officer classifications?

MARS officer training is same in the Navy between reserve and reg up until the OFP.  After that it's pretty much the same with navigation being the only reg force D-Level 'specialization' reserve officers complete (and no ORO course after that).


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## FJAG (14 Nov 2012)

Snakedoc said:
			
		

> Out of curiousity what type of specialities do Reg Force legal officers often transfer to?  Do you mean they transfer out of the legal branch and into other GSO officer classifications?
> 
> MARS officer training is same in the Navy between reserve and reg up until the OFP.  After that it's pretty much the same with navigation being the only reg force D-Level 'specialization' reserve officers complete (and no ORO course after that).



I mean that they stay within the legal branch but after doing a job with prosecution or defence they take over jobs in another legal directorate in Ottawa or go to a job as a Deputy Judge Advocate with a regional legal office.

This page will give you an idea about the various directorates etc:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/jag/law-droit/index-eng.asp


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## pastintop (21 Jan 2013)

Int Op is 100% the same for both reg and res


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## VIChris (21 Jan 2013)

I can't speak for all the SVC BN trades, but the comment about the VEH TECH trades training being similar is quite false. It is much shorter  n the reserves, and the course content is fairly different. There is a lot of equipment we don't see in the reserves, and as such we don't (generally) get trained up on it.


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