# First Aid / CPR training and certification



## bigni

Hello,

I released from the mlitary prior to completing the course. However, I did pass my Military First Aid exam. Does anybody know how I could get proof that I am certified?  I realised the material covered in Military First Aid is the same as Standard First Aid with the exception of 3 more units. Who do I talk to regarding this manner?

Any information would be great. Sorry if this is in the wrong section. I did not know whereelse to post it.

Thanks!

Jey


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## Garbageman

A lot of the military courses are run by people from St. John Ambulance.  Try calling the St. John office closest to where you did your course - they may have record of you.


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## Da_man

I never got anything stating that i completed this course  ???


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## Fraser.g

Your course is registered in the special center at CFB Borden. 
DND has an agreement with St. John so that we get a reduced rate for the first aid course and the back side is that they charge extra for the certificates and wallet cards. This is a cost that most courses and schools will avoid.

Go through your training cell at your unit and have them search it out. I would try at the school that you took your BMQ at for starters.


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## Armymedic

Actually, is the CF special center in Ottawa. 

If you can, attempt to access your instructors and they may be able to assist you.


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## Warvstar

Hello guys and girls, Im considering going to sait(school) to get my First aid and CPR. But before I do I was wanting to know if I should even bother with it. The Army(infrantry) should provide any first aid / cpr training right? or should I just goto sait for it. Dumb question again but I have nothing else to do.


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## swanita

Yes, you will do some first aid & CPR during basic training, so might as well save your money.

Cheers


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## Warvstar

Ok Thanks.


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## Jonny Boy

swanita said:
			
		

> Yes, you will do some first aid & CPR during basic training, so might as well save your money.
> 
> Cheers



does that qualify you as a first aid qualified person though?


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## DogOfWar

-Hutch- said:
			
		

> does that qualify you as a first aid qualified person though?



yes.


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## George Wallace

You'll do a test and get a certificate from it.   There are many St John's Ambulance First Aid Instructors in the Forces, and they stay current by instructing to their Units and other Units as requested.


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## chrisf

The military doesn't issue first aid certificates, I'm guessing under the logic that it has the record that you've learned it, but you can make a request for them... not entirely sure on the process.


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## DogOfWar

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> The military doesn't issue first aid certificates, I'm guessing under the logic that it has the record that you've learned it, but you can make a request for them... not entirely sure on the process.



yeah you have to pay the 5 dollars to get the card issued. Ask the instructor when you take the course.


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## MJP

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> The military doesn't issue first aid certificates, I'm guessing under the logic that it has the record that you've learned it, but you can make a request for them... not entirely sure on the process.



They don't issue them as it would cost to much and besides according to the DAODs every soldier is suppose to be trained to the standard level of First Aid and Level C CPR, so in theory every soldier you potentially meet is most likely a first aider.  We all know though that people fall through the cracks....but I think there are enough around.

If you need a certificate, for whatever reason talk to your instructor and give them your reason for needing one.  They will most likely not request one for you if you just want it to look at it, but if you have a legit reason they will get it for you.  What they do is email the Ottawa Special Center and request one.  From there Ottawa goes over to St. John's and gets the certificate and then sends it to your instructor who will give it to you.  It a fairly painless process, but can take some time depending on how swamped the special center is


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## nawk

When I did BMQ everyone received their St. John's ambulance first aid certificate free of charge.


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## George Wallace

Just to clear this up a bit....You don't get the certificate/card from the CF, but from St John's Ambulance.


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## chrisf

Being a reserverist, a first aid certificate comes in handy civvie side... last time I did the course, the instructor asked who wanted a certificate, naturally, the bulk of the students raised their hands, so everyone raised their hands. About a month later, they all arrived, free of charge.


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## MJP

They are always free of charge for the students...The CF still pays for them though.  That is why most units don't get them for their soldiers.


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## Canadian Sig

nawk said:
			
		

> When I did BMQ everyone received their St. John's ambulance first aid certificate free of charge.



   My course as well.


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## The_Falcon

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Just to clear this up a bit....You don't get the certificate/card from the CF, but from St John's Ambulance.





			
				nawk said:
			
		

> When I did BMQ everyone received their St. John's ambulance  first aid certificate free of charge.



Everyone go here www.sja.ca now tell me what you see.  What should I see you ask? Well it is St *JOHN* Amublance.  St. John's is a City in the Maritimes.  Sorry, I volunteer for the St. John Amublance Brigade, and it is a pet peeve of mine.


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## the 48th regulator

hmm,

Everytime I did the course in the CF, I received a card upon completion.  

dileas

tess


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## para paramedic

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Everyone go here www.sja.ca now tell me what you see.  What should I see you ask? Well it is St *JOHN* Amublance.  St. John's is a City in the Maritimes.  Sorry, I volunteer for the St. John Amublance Brigade, and it is a pet peeve of mine.



Actually, St. John's is a city in the Atlantic Provinces, NOT the Maritimes. Newfoundland is not part of the Maritimes (Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island). It's a pet peeve of mine, being raised a Maritimer myself.  Don't get me started on the whole SAINT John versus ST. John debate.... 

Have a look here: http://atlas.gc.ca/site/english/maps/reference/provincesterritories/maritimes

Getting back on topic, I'm a Canadian Red Cross first aid instructor, and I've taken St. John Ambulance first aid courses in the past. For both organizations, wallet card certificates are generally given out at the end of the course at no extra cost, at least on the civvie side. From the Red Cross perspective, the cost of the wallet cards is included in the course package for each candidate. However, if the candidate wants a large certificate to put up on the wall, that would be an extra cost.


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## wookie11

I finished my first aid not too long ago, and upon completion, I was told that my certificate would be sent to my home unit. Check with your home unit and find out if they have one for you.


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## Hot Lips

I am a qualified first aid instructor with St. John Ambulance...IMO...all instructors must complete paperwork to be paid for instruction...part of the paperwork is a list of names of individuals completing courses and their place of work.
So as above contacting St. John Ambulance locally ought to get you the info you are trying to obtain.

HL


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## old medic

Lingling,

The last post is two years old. Probably no longer an issue.

HL,

See RN PRN and Armymedic's last posts above.  The local St. Johns Branch 
won't be able to help, as it all goes through the DND office and bypasses 
St. John local and provincial offices.

OM


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## PQLUR

*Does anyone have a link or electronic copy of the DOAD for First Aid & CPR?*


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## 211RadOp

The DAOD has been superseded. If you want a copy of the new training standards, I can send them to you. PM me with your address.


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## old medic

What specifically are you looking for. As mentioned, the DAOD is gone.


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## PQLUR

old medic said:
			
		

> What specifically are you looking for. As mentioned, the DAOD is gone.



Thanks, "Old Medic" . . I'll wait and see what 211RadOp sends me. (basically need anything that is similar to the DOAD)


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## 211RadOp

On the way


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## TikiTak

I got a certificate before I left camp. It's also recored in your file, just go to your OR and ask them.


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## flight-coropral-08

Hi I got my emergency first aid through cadets. I was wondering if I were to take retrianing like 2 months befors I enlist in the army, would I have to go through first aid training agian?


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## aesop081

flight-coropral-08 said:
			
		

> Hi I got my emergency first aid through cadets. I was wondering if I were to take retrianing like 2 months befors I enlist in the army, would I have to go through first aid training agian?



Yes


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## Nfld Sapper

To expand on what CDN Aviator said everything you learned in cadets will have to be retaught to you when you do BMQ because that's the way the Training Plan is written.


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## medicineman

And to expand on Sapper, you'll be learning other stuff as well not taught on civvy courses.

MM


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## George Wallace

Another point:  Your certificate is not good for Life, so you will have to take the course several times in your lifetime to remain qualified.


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## NL_engineer

flight-coropral-08 said:
			
		

> Hi I got my emergency first aid through cadets. I was wondering if I were to take retrianing like 2 months befors I enlist in the army, would I have to go through first aid training agian?



to add the military teaches Standard first aid, it is to a higher level then the one you have.


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## Blackadder1916

flight-corporal-08 said:
			
		

> Hi I got my emergency first aid through cadets. I was wondering if I were to take retrianing like 2 months befors I enlist in the army, would I have to go through first aid training agian?



Now this brought back an amusing memory of a fellow recruit at Cornwallis asking a similiar question of an instructor.  IIRC, the individual had also received training in cadets, but he didn't learn the important rule that there are indeed stupid questions.  The instructor replied rather benevolently at first, saying that he didn't see a problem as the recruit obviously knew everything that he needed to know.  The instructor continued, saying that his concern was with the recruit's fellow coursemates and perhaps the recruit should remain with the class and ensure that they were properly trained as he would need someone to give him first aid because if he asked any more questions like that, he (the instructor) would rip off his head and shit down his neck.


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## EW

I am researching first aid training for a group of civilians, and have an honest question; is there a general perception amongst Medical Branch folks as to which 'generally' has the better first aid programs - St John Ambulance or the Canadian Red Cross?  

The intended audience would have to operate in isolated camps, where they may not get very timely response for anything other than air ambulance.  So I have been looking at the "First Responder" courses that both the Red Cross and St. John Ambulance offer.  I'm sure that people have likely had good and bad experiences with both, but I'd be interested in hearing any professional opinions.

Regards.


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## medic45

I would say go with the Red Cross course.  They have a long established 40 hour first responder course and recently a newer 80 hour emergency medical responder course.  I am personally not a fan of the SJA coures.  They are too fragmented and don't at all teach a comprehensive approach to pt management, simply a disconnected list of skills.  The EMR course is a significant investment in time and money but is quite comprehensive.  If you are dealing with very green people you may want to keep it simple and go with the 40 hour first responder course.


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## medaid

I'll come in as a Red Cross Instructor and offer my biased 0.02.

Red Cross depending on where you go and which authorized provider you are with, you will get varying degrees of training just like SJA. By varying degrees I don't mean that the skills won't be the same, I just mean that the instructors' skill experience and overall patient contact and experience will effect how they teach the courses.

That being said, Red Cross generally have pretty good courses, and with a large number of instructors with health care backgrounds. The Instructor Trainers are all extremely experienced, at least out here in BC, and they don't pass Instructors lightly.

Now from what you're saying and by your description, you want a Wilderness Advanced First Aid training from the Red Cross. This course will teach you all the skills necessary to employ WAFA in the wilderness and remote locations. What are some of the things taught on this? Well you'll have to learn all the same skills as a First Responder on top of other things such as fluid and food intake calculation so that your patients will not have to urinate or defecate that much, thus minimalizing movement to any possible injuries, or illnesses that has reduced the patient to limited activities. 

This also includes how to utilize the surroundings and what you have to aide and take care of your patient instead of just thinking with a jump kit, or a first-aid bag. Let me know where you're from EW, if you're out here on the West Coast the company I work for is the ONLY company that teaches Red Cross First Responders in B.C. and the instructors teaching it has close to 40 years experience in the Paramedical field, and the assistant instructors are either instructors in other Red Cross fields or experienced First Responders themselves. 

Shoot me a PM and let me know.


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## medic45

Do you work for Maple Ridge First Aid?  They teach all the red cross first responder courses.


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## EW

Thanks forall that. I'm located outside Ottawa, so there are strong offices for both organizations.  Appreciate the answers, and for some context, as I continue the research.  Thanks again!


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## medaid

medic45 said:
			
		

> Do you work for Maple Ridge First Aid?  They teach all the red cross first responder courses.



No I teach for Emergency services Institute. As far as I know we're the only one that teaches FR on a regular basis, and regular meaning every 2 months. I haven't met any FRs or EMRs from that school, so I can't really comment on them .


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## VRC

Hi there - sorry that I picked up this thread so late.  SJA & CRC are extremely similar in that, at a Standard FA level, they both meet the needs of the various provincial compensation boards(with the exception of BC).  At an advanced level, they have become similar again, although SJA has more experience in providing that level of care.  They have 24-hour, 40-hour, or 80-hour Medical First Responder course.  The 80-hour can meet Paramedic Assoc. of Canada requirements.  I don't know if CRC's 80-hour course does but they'd be foolish if it didn't.
If you're interested in teaching the public yourself, CRC gives you better options; being an authorized provider with Red Cross is much more flexible than teaching for SJA.

As regards content, the person who commented that SJA seems to be fragmented doesn't seem to know where SJA is coming from.  Since you can't pick your next casualty or your next emergency, SJA tries to give you a wide range of skills.  Where they fail is that since their courses are modular, they need to tell their clients that they have some choice in content.  

Having taught for both agencies, I think that I see the differences in approach &, although I still teach for SJA, acknowledge that the differnce really lies with the instructor, not the organization.

VRC


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## Hawky225

I've got my NLS certs and SFA + CPR C. Will those quals count for anything?


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## medicineman

Long and short - not really.

MM


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## kratz

Reference: CMP Instruction 11/06 - First Aid and CPR Training
  - ADM(HR-Mil) Instruction 02/05 - Automated External Defibrillator Usage
  - DND Special Centre First Aid
  - DCoPS FAI and FAIT threads
  - SJA Intranet

Before starting this topic I did a search. While there are a number of posts on this topic, no thread discusses the area of first aid training, the quality of it and the standards of first aid training. I have provided the references above to link those who know the issues and to help everyone to else to know that the FA program is now voluntary vice professional as it once was.

As this thread is for training and standards, most posts would be from FAI (First Aid Instructors) or FAIT (First Aid Instructor Trainers). Other comments are constructive input on what FAI and FAITs can action within the above refs.

I have a topic in mind start with, but I want to hear how this thread is received.


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## medaid

I don't quite understand where you're going with this Kratz.


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## kratz

In many topics I have read the moan and groaning of people about first aid and that it does not meet what they want. So I am opening a discussion from FAI and FAITs on the courses they are instructing and in a secondary role, providing an answer to questions that pers may have.

As I mentioned in my first post, I have topics in mind:
- SJA or CRC ? This comes up each fall for review due to TB issues.
- Transfer of skills when posted? Both RCR and SJA are nationally recognized, but what are the experiences after a move?

I know one base wants you to have HCP before becoming a FAI. I know another base that you could pull teeth and not be allowed to be  qualified as an AMFR Instructor. I know Gagetown wants FAI to be AMFR1 qualified before their ICP. 

These are the topics that I was hoping to talk about in the thread. With other knowledgeable pers.


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## Armymedic

FA and FAI isn't really of interest to medical persons anymore. In fact there hasn't really been any sort of interest amongst the army supporting side of the medical branch for years. The only ones I hear doing anything to do with FAI is Fd Hosp and some of the air force bases.


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## medaid

AH!!!! Gotcha!!!!

Okie dokie here I go.

I taught for the CF and I teach for the Red Cross.

I will give you an honest unbiased opinion of how both the SJA courses and hor CRC courses are run. 

When I first did my CF FAI I thought it was overly regimented, extremely stiff and relatively boring. The way the courses are structured you don't have much wiggle room either way, to teach things as you see fit as long as you meet all the training standards. The old cheesey SJA films didn't help either. If we were going to teach a MSFA course we should have material ie AV that's Milcentric. I know that the MSFA was a bastardized version of the SJA SFA with added Mil components, and I, honestly ever since taking the CF FAI course have become repulsed by the material offered and the techniques taught. 

Now, when I became a CRC FAI I enjoyed the process that much more. The entire course was not at all about testing your first-aid knowledge like the SJA version was, but more about developing and understanding teaching as a whole. I honestly believe that the way we teach some of the things in the CF is seriously flawed. It doesn't leave much room for improve and or allow the insertion of many personal experience.

Anyways, when I teach a CRC course whether it be SFA, EFA, MFA, AED or whatever I can always laugh and joke and insert experiences and stories where as when I teach a CF SFA course it's rigid, I am the instructor and you are the student. You listen I teach. You answer when I ask. I find that to be an extremely poor method of teaching first-aid and the whole concept of the SFA taught by SJA is just... well weird. 

I seriously believe that the CF would be way better off going with CRC's teaching. Instead of the AMFR we should switch to the EMR which CRC is the national standard and provider for, well with the exception of BC because we're weird. AMFR can't get you a job on a rig in the majority of the provinces. AMFR isn't recognized out side of the CF and SJA. When you go into a health care setting more people would know what level you are and where you placed on the scheme of things when you're a certification and license that is accredited by the Paramedic Association of Canada. The AMFR is not accredited or recognized by again any official body other then the CF or SJA. 

Not to mention the CRC would recognise your SJA training... well grudgingly give you a shot at their Instructor courses, but the reverse would never be. Why is that? I don't know. Maybe because SJA believes that they are the best in the world. They lack accountability, any sort of oversight by a recognized medical body, please don't say SJA can regulate itself because it clearly can't from the people I've worked with. Their own developed standards and training has no place in the real world, and frankly is hard to work with even if they did come to help you.

I had a troop who's an ACP when I was with the Fd Amb and his wife was a teacher. Her co-worker said to her one day "What does your husband do?" She said "My husband's a paramedic with BCAS" and her co-worker says "Oh! Wow, my husband's a paramedic too! But I don't know what BCAS is" and the troop's wife looked at her strangely and said "so... where's your husband working then?" co-worker replied "Oh! He's with St John's Ambulance!" 

When we heard this, we had a good laugh... a really good laugh. Then we became serious and though "wow... just... wow"

I've had many horror stories some of my own, and some from others. One thing that really amazed me was that when the Queen visited Ottawa a few years back, the SJA was there to provide med coverage. With one fake ambulance and a few fanny packs.... and I've worked plenty of large events along side SJA and it has been unanimously decreed that SJA will not be doing most if not all the events that I've been a part of. 

Anyways... sorry for the long winded blurb. I don't think the CF should be with SJA anymore. If they want real professional level courses, they should go with EMR and PCP like we've started already with the Med Tech QL3. No more fly by night and no accreditation.


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## kratz

I am not stuck with CRC or SJA. I really only want to provide what students can use in real life. In Nova Scotia if an AMFR is wearing the provincially issued tag on scene, at least prehospital medical pers know that person has a minimum level  to admin O2, handle spinal issues or work with an AED. 

I have access to FAI materials for SJA and CRC. Given a choice , I don't care which one I could instruct to members. In my mind, what I do want to offer is  a FA program meet their needs and that they are willing to use more often than not.

When I was in school I never liked the learning method of "do this becasue it must be done". As a FAIT, I work with the idea of this is how it needs to be done and if you ask, here is the extra info.


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## medaid

kratz said:
			
		

> When I was in school I never liked the learning method of "do this becasue it must be done". As a FAIT, I work with the idea of this is how it needs to be done and if you ask, here is the extra info.



BINGO! I think that's the most important part. People want to know WHY things are done vice DO IT because it's done. The whole cahnge that ILCOR brought about was in many ways brilliant! Away with the old mystical ways of things and in comes the science proven methods. 

I only go with CRC right now because it's got all the right check marks with many if all the right agencies, and that the certs are recognized.


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## medicineman

I for one, as a FAIT/AMFRIT/EMRIT, have heard numerous times from people I've taught over the years (and I've mentioned to the powers that be as well) that there are bad optics for people not being active workers in the emergency services field teaching some these courses.  Let's look at SJA - you can do your standard first aid one day, and a few weeks later be loaded on an ICP course.  You may have no real world experience other than doing your course previously, but now are able to teach it based solely on the precept that you've passed the ICP.  I've seen some CF units (that will remain nameless - for now) that have gone so far as to load people that are literally a week old instructors on the FAIT course, despite having normally to be an instructor for at least a year.  BTW, these weren't medics either.  This simply doesn't look good.  So, when people ask legitimite questions in class that the instructor cannot answer other than by "That's done this way because that's what the book tells you" doesn't lend alot of credibilty to you as the instructor, the material, the organization or the most important thing - the student's thought of "WTF am I doing here anyway?".  Let's also not forget silly things like answering outside their scope of knowledge or training - and example that's a personal favorite was an IT who was going around telling people that the ASA we were supposed to administer to people having unstable chest pain was as a pain reliever, not as a platelet de-clumper.

Personally, I'm a little biased due to my long association with SJA and some really bad experiences with the CRC.  However, I used to make some extra money by teaching for a firm that you could only work for if you had real field experience.  The text book we used was thin and dumbed down and how it was presented to the students was up to the instructor (within some guidelines).  I think what we should do is take the best of all the worlds, sit down with the First Aid gurus within the CF as a working group, and devise a series of military first aid courses with our own CF stamp on them, with a building block approach to course make up and presentation, each with increasing responsibilities/scopes and more importantly, work/enviromentally oriented.  Not everybody needs TCCC or AMFR/EMR, but some do depending on where they work or what their civilian equivalency requires and everyone needs to know how to deal with not only combat injuries but the day to day stuff that you run into in the field, in a hangar or on ship.  If you get it so it's easy to remember, job related and dare I say fun/interesting, people will take the training more seriously and get more from it.

Lastly, we have to train instructors that are both knowlegeable AND experienced - and not just experienced in the field they are teaching, but in the field of teaching.  Just because you know it doesn't mean you can get your point across.  I too have seen places (both mil and civvy) that have written people off as instructors simply because they are in the field - they couldn't teach someone to (literally) save their own lives, much less a member of the public, but hey, they're a paramedic or a nurse, so they must be able to do it.  Not everyone is meant to be an educator, so let's limit the pool to those that not only can do but can teach as well.

There's my $1.00 worth with 98% tax applied, for what it may be worth.

Cheers.

MM


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## medaid

medicineman said:
			
		

> Personally, I'm a little biased due to my long association with SJA and some really bad experiences with the CRC.



Everyone has biases towards one or the other  At least now we'll get to hear both the good and the bad from each side of the coin  ;D


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## medicineman

By far the best go I had was working for a different company - the pay was good, I was treated with respect, very little petty politics involved and I had the leeway to teach stuff the way I thought it should be instead of the "Stay within this lesson plan only" way of doing things that SJA and to some extent, CRC use.

MM


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## kratz

MedTech said:
			
		

> Everyone has biases towards one or the other  At least now we'll get to hear both the good and the bad from each side of the coin  ;D



For FAI and FAITs, we know the most of the pros and cons of CRC and SJA. Though those can be discussed here as well. I was aiming to share the good, bad and ugly of offering courses under the current program.

In Halifax, I could offer free EFA/CPC courses with base support through the MFRC. Now that we have moved to Borden, the work and pulling of teeth in comparison to offer the same course is stunning. Not to mention that nearly half the "students" are from a civilian contractor here.

I offered to instruct with the council in Barrie, provided a letter from Halifax. The local FAIT was introduced to me, and physically shyed away from me when she heard I was a FAIT from the East Coast.


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## The_Falcon

medicineman said:
			
		

> By far the best go I had was working for a different company - the pay was good, I was treated with respect, very little petty politics involved and I had the leeway to teach stuff the way I thought it should be instead of the "Stay within this lesson plan only" way of doing things that SJA and to some extent, CRC use.
> 
> MM



Well to be fair SJA/CRC are national organizations, hence the "stay within the lesson plan" mentality, as it ensures that there is some consistency in every course, regardless of where it it taught.  But having volunteered with SJA for few years, I took/assisted on a few courses, and some of the instructors I worked with were able to insert thier own experiences, and deviate slightly from the offical lesson plan.


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## medicineman

I had to really watch that when I was being recertified in Kingston, as the IT couldn't think outside that box.  That's the case in a number of places unfortunately.

Back on topic, thinking outside the box seems to be what gets alot student satisfaction, be it from change of scenery or actually being able to do something different/applicable.  Also, using a problem based approach seems to be useful as well - teach the general considerations, then give each person a problem with/without tools and let them solve it.  It's fun and more real life and helps with time management, as all can get involved at the same time doing something.  It's how we ran our UNMO courses in Kingston, and worked out well.

MM


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## kratz

I observed the CRC cert of the Master Trainers on the East coast, back in 2005. I liked the hands on focus more than the theory. The drawback that I noticed, was that the person doing the qual was hung up on the terms and did not allow SJA terms/name to be mentioned at anytime during training. It was nearly as P/F point in the course.


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## medaid

kratz that's the thing about CRC. We think that if you're going to teach for us, you better teach with our terminology and our material. It's okay to substitute interesting facts into the course itself but you had better be using the correct terminology and wording when you're teaching the actual material. Do I agree with that? Sure, and not so much.

I think it's important to know the material that you're teaching and not get it mixed up with someone else's stuff. After all you're teaching a CRC course, and that should be what the students receive.


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## medicineman

True - if you teach for a certain organization and they have certain buzz words or acronyms that are in their common use, don't use someone else's because it will just create chaos with the students who actually study from their manuals.

Who wants to set up an Army.ca First Aid working group, hash out some little CTP's and then toss it up the chain and see what happens?

MM


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## medaid

If you chair it, I'll play.


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## ArmyGuy99

While I'm not an instructor, I have had the "Benefit" of having both CRC, SJA, and army's version of SJA.  Both my parents were Civie Medics and I've been back from BC for just under a year.  So I've had bit of everything.  I've also had to use my FA training quite a few times before I saw the light and became a Med Tech.

Personally, I liked the way it was taught oh about 15 years ago or so.  I remember being taught real world skills, like how to actually bandage different types of wounds and how to wrap an ankle or a knee, or even the basics of basics, the trusted sling.  I've had to recert my FA skills over the years and noticed a decline in actually teaching these vital tools of trade.  Instead I've found, at least here in Ontario, that the instructors focus more on CPR than anything else.

A few years ago I asked my FAI why was this, and his response was "We don't teach that stuff anymore, because it won't be used and doesn't save lives",  I was like what the.....???.  But I had to go along with it cause it was a company sponsored CRC course.  Needless to say I spent 5 yrs there and never did I do CPR, but I sure used the band aids and bandages alot.

Same with the military version, I remember being told before hand to go in and shut up, just do what your told and don't argue.  Needless to say it was very very hard to do.  Especially for my friends who were all civie PCP's.

I think a return to teaching the basics is essential, focus on teaching how to apply band aids and bandages and rendering aid.  Not just CPR.  Sure being in cardiac arrest will kill you, but so will shock or bleeding out.


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## DaWickerMan

Hi there, I didn't know where else to ask this question, hopefully someone can help.

I just finished my contract for the CF and opted to become a civi (I know, I know... geez!).

I'm still quite young and recently decided to become a police officer.  One of the requirements is a First Aid certificate.

Now I completed 1st aid training in BMQ, and was wondering if we ever get a certificate for that, or does our course report count as a valid 1st aid certificate? (<-- I guess that's a question more for the employer).


Thank you and cheers!


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## kratz

First Aid training is only valid for three years. If you have completed your BE, then your certification is most likely expired and you will need to take the course again. I have spoken with the FAIT at the CFLRS Borden Det and they do not normally request certificates for their recruits.


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## dangerboy

Most units have a first aid coordinator and they can request a certificate.  Our unit does that for guys that are releasing or for any reserves  that did it with the unit ie for a tour.  As Kratz said they don't issue them out to everyone and in your case it probably has expires, just giving the info out in case anyone else is interested.


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## medicineman

The other thing that I used to do when I was teaching alot (and when it was a problem to get the certificates) was I'd write a letter affirming the course number, date and level on either DND or my personal letterhead for the student.

MM


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## 211RadOp

As an SOP, whenever I taught an MSFA crse, I always asked the Unit Coordinator for certificates. Now that I am in a new unit, I have yet to find out who the coord is. If your course is still current, you *may* be able to get a certificate, if you can come up with the name of your FAI and the date you did the course. Without this basic information, DND Special Centers will not even take the time to look up the information as they get thousands of course reports a year.


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## R933ex

In theory, all SJA courses including those done for special centers, should be entered into the SJA Unity system. One thing you could also try is to go to the local SJA office and see if they can do a reprint of the certificate.


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## trencher

Pm me you name and ill give you my email and i can tell you if your expired or not.


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## Nauticus

From my experience, everybody had to do everything at BMQ.


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## Mike Baker

Okay guys, I'm wondering how much the Standard and Emergency First Aid costs at St. John Ambulance.


Anyone know? I couldn't find it on their site, but I'm the kind of person who could be looking at it, and not see it


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## midget-boyd91

I took the Standard course about a year and a half ago. I'm digging into my memory here, but I'm pretty certain that I recall someone telling me that if we weren't in cadets we would have needed to pay anywheres from $70 to $100 for the course. 
 Not sure what the prices would be out your way though, but this might give you a ballpark figure.

Oddball


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## kratz

IAW CMP 11/04 the normal level of first aid for DND/CF is Standard First Aid with CPR level C. You would receive this training at no cost to you from your BMQ or unit. The cost of SFA/CPC varies across Canada and you have not mentioned where you are. I know on the East Coast the price is $95 and here in Ontario it is $120. You can also call SJA in your local area  to find out.


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## Mike Baker

70-100 bones, eh? Sounds reasonable.


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## the 48th regulator

FrostyHazard said:
			
		

> Okay guys, I'm wondering how much the Standard and Emergency First Aid costs at St. John Ambulance.
> 
> 
> Anyone know? I couldn't find it on their site, but I'm the kind of person who could be looking at it, and not see it




Funny,

I was able to find pricing, once I put in my location....

http://www.sja.ca/Pages/default.aspx

Locked.

dileas

tess

milnet.ca staff


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## Gary D. in SK

In short, there are no bye's in BMQ, you civi credientials don't mean sh**  We have a former EMT doing the firstaid course.  And the truth of it is it is the same as any civillian St. John civi course, but I found that the training methods seeemed (for me) to be somewhat inferior to the way it is taught in the civi world. ( I've done it multiple times for my civi occupation).  If you have all the knowled going in it just means the test will be that much easier (just don't get caught falling asleep in class)


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## Sonnyjim

Military First Aid Training even through St. Johns does not qualify anything in the civilian world. I had to take my civilian first aid training twice over a few years in order to meet the requirements for the job I was applying for, although I have the training still qualified. Military first aid, TCCC, TMST training mean nothing except your own knowledge is bettered(if that's even a word).


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## kratz

The MSFA does qualify you through SJA and is recognized by many areas outside of the CF. 
Some examples that I am aware of include:
-	Youth Organizations (Scouts, Guides, sports)
-	National chain companies (Sport Check, Wal Mart, Zellers)

The AMFR course is also recognized outside of the CF. 
Some examples that I am aware of include:
-	Mississauga Fire Service
-	NS’s Provincial Health Department First Responder program

Outside organizations are not bound to accept the MSFA - SJA certificate,
 just as the CF does not accept outside training when one is on course.


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## kratz

** [CAUTION: Before replying to a post from the first 16 posts]**  This thread is revived to save search efforts WRT first aid.

refs: 1) CMP Instruction 11/06 – First Aid and Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation Training: 
            SUPERCEDED by CMP XX/12
        2) CMP Instruction 02/05 – Automated External Defibrillator Usage:
            (http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/pd/pi-ip/02-05-eng.asp)

So reference 1) is already pulled off the website in anticipation of CMP XX/12
I have a copy of CMP XX/12 in my hands, but they anticipate the draft will be approved within Jan 2012.

AED must be taught at all DND/CF courses (chapter 22, not the chapter 4 option). 
-Units will need to purchase AED Trainers, from their own training budget. NOT funded by DND SC.
- There are  handful of companies with NSO (National Standing Orders) with DND.
- Average cost is $300 or less per AED Trainer, units will also need correct manikins 
- Average cost is $134 or less per manikin.

- For a normal 18 student course, 5 AED trainers and manikins plus maintenance costs from the manufacture equals $4000, plus taxes, S&H. Bulk deals are available if they are pre-identified before the purchase. 

- 5 Back Blows, then 5 chest compressions is now the conscious sever choking standard.

- Chopping up DVD videos in a lesson is the SJA standard. 

- Contracting FAI skills out to SJA or another company is no longer approved.
- Buying books directly from SJA is no longer approved
- First Aid certificates for 100% of all DND/CF students will be printed and mailed out 
by SJA National office, through DND Special Center, within 25 working days of receiving the course report.

- You can not start instructing the 2011 protocols without attending a military upgrade course.

- Those upgrades can not be offered until the books/DVD/Exams are available to be ordered. 
Best case scenario – Feb 2012
Worst case scenario – Jun 2012

The “Take away” message from this seminar is to continue instructing the current FA program until the materials for the 2011 version is available. With no books in the system, you must reuse what you have.

This is not a comprehensive list of the discussions or topics covered over the national FAIT seminar. Rather, this is a heads up for FAIs and other FAITs for the way ahead. It also offers another venue for discussion if needed.


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## Nfld Sapper

kratz said:
			
		

> ** [CAUTION: Before replying to a post from the first 16 posts]**  This thread is revived to save search efforts WRT first aid.
> 
> refs: 1) CMP Instruction 11/06 – First Aid and Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation Training:
> SUPERCEDED by CMP XX/12
> 2) CMP Instruction 02/05 – Automated External Defibrillator Usage:
> (http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/pd/pi-ip/02-05-eng.asp)
> 
> So reference 1) is already pulled off the website in anticipation of CMP XX/12
> I have a copy of CMP XX/12 in my hands, but they anticipate the draft will be approved within Jan 2012.
> 
> AED must be taught at all DND/CF courses (chapter 22, not the chapter 4 option).
> -Units will need to purchase AED Trainers, from their own training budget. NOT funded by DND SC.
> - There are  handful of companies with NSO (National Standing Orders) with DND.
> - Average cost is $300 or less per AED Trainer, units will also need correct manikins
> - Average cost is $134 or less per manikin.
> 
> - For a normal 18 student course, 5 AED trainers and manikins plus maintenance costs from the manufacture equals $4000, plus taxes, S&H. Bulk deals are available if they are pre-identified before the purchase.
> 
> - 5 Back Blows, then 5 chest compressions is now the conscious sever choking standard.
> 
> - Chopping up DVD videos in a lesson is the SJA standard.
> 
> - Contracting FAI skills out to SJA or another company is no longer approved.
> - Buying books directly from SJA is no longer approved
> - First Aid certificates for 100% of all DND/CF students will be printed and mailed out
> by SJA National office, through DND Special Center, within 25 working days of receiving the course report.
> 
> - You can not start instructing the 2011 protocols without attending a military upgrade course.
> 
> - Those upgrades can not be offered until the books/DVD/Exams are available to be ordered.
> Best case scenario – Feb 2012
> Worst case scenario – Jun 2012
> 
> The “Take away” message from this seminar is to continue instructing the current FA program until the materials for the 2011 version is available. With no books in the system, you must reuse what you have.
> 
> This is not a comprehensive list of the discussions or topics covered over the national FAIT seminar. Rather, this is a heads up for FAIs and other FAITs for the way ahead. It also offers another venue for discussion if needed.



kratz can you send me a link to the source msg?


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## medicineman

Hmmmm - is that for adult??

MM


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## medicineman

I'm pretty sure I was awake for my CPR refresher a few months back and seem to remember that as well...if it's for an adult, do we tie their ankles together and hang them upside down to administer these back blows then punch them in the chest after?

MM


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## Fishbone Jones

medicineman said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure I was awake for my CPR refresher a few months back and seem to remember that as well...if it's for an adult, do we tie their ankles together and hang them upside down to administer these back blows then punch them in the chest after?
> 
> MM



If we could do that, I probably wouldn't try dodge the FA\CPR refreshers. ;D


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## dangerboy

Now these guys are going to have to update their videos

http://vimeo.com/12204236?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Vimeo%2FAvatarNemo+%28AvatarNemo+%40+Vimeo%29


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## medicineman

I remember many moons ago doing my lifeguard training and when we were doing the choking stuff, you still had to landmark just off the navel and we were told that (at that time in fashion history) that ladies jeans were higher cut than men's, so just do a quick check with your finger uner the blet line to make sure you're in the right spot.  I had a female partner, quite nice on the eyes, who only heard  " put your hands under the belt line to look for the right spot", so shoved her hands right down my pants...

To be 16 again  >.

MM


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## camouflauge

cypres78 said:
			
		

> Im having a hard time picturing this. If your giving back blows Im assuming the pt is still on their feet(even is they weren't)...how do switch back and forth between with chest compressions and back blows?



I'm thinking back blows is only for infant.

But I got curious too, is 5 backblows and 5 chest thrusts applicable for adults?


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## kratz

[quote author=NFLD Sapper]kratz can you send me a link to the source msg?[/quote]

CMP XX/12 is in draft at the moment and not released. 
It is anticipated that it will be released in early Jan 2012.

Just like the last CMP simply introduced the requirment to instruct infant CPR, units were responsible
to purchase their own. The same intent will be in place for the AED-Trainers and appropriate AED manikins.


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## kratz

The 5 back blows, followed by 5 abdominal thrusts 
are one of the many 2011 protocol changes from the current 2006 protocols.

Those back blows, follwed by abdominal thrusts are for conscious choking adult and children.
The skill will be demonstrated to you on course. (no tying of feet)  ;D

There is no change to infant choking.


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## brihard

I'm on my first aid instructor course right now. We were told today that the new protocols are expected to hit CF wide all at once, probably about September 2012. My source for this is an FAI trainer at CFSU(O) training cell.  I did a St John emergency first aid course recently for something else, and the new protocols had already been moved to.


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## kratz

The authority to instruct the 2011 protocols is already out. 
The hold up is the ability to instruct those new protocols when the proper materials are not in the system yet.
Until then the current (read old) protocols will be instructed.

Once the books/DVDs ect... are available through Base Pubs / DND Special Centre
then the expectation for all FAI to be instructing the new protocols will be ensured by base / unit FAITs.

We were informed the best case timeline is currently Feb 2012 for the new materials.
The worst case timeline is looking out at June 2012.


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## medicineman

Luckily the next research won't be published until about 2015/16...where they'll go back to the 2005 guidelines, or maybe even earlier (like pre-1986).

MM


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## kratz

I know this is a necro-thread, but it's better to post this here than start a new discussion.

A new CMP Pers Instr 03/06 has been published Oct 4th, 2016 and supersedes the previous versions. 
The updated Instruction has handful of subtle changes to the MFA program, example:
- Recommending PLQ or an IT course vice requiring it or not mentioning the topic at all, compared to previous Instr,
- The Steward trade is now listed in Annex A to receive HCP level CPR.

There is also a new course report out, available from DND Special Centre for First Aid.


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## Misses muffett

Hi,

Thanks for reading. Can civi St John Ambulance training be recognized in the CAF? The instructors we have are taught by St John Ambulance so, I don't see the difference. Anyone know for sure?bi need the qual. ASAP but no army run ones around. 

Thanks so much


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## kratz

reference: CF Mil Pers Instr 03/16 : First Aid, Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation and Automated External Defibrillation Training

Short answer: No. 

Full answer: DND has already paid SJA millions for the current first aid contract. When a unit CO does not follow the reference, and attempts to rely on local SJA to shore up the shortcomings, additional unit funds are wasted for a program that has already been paid for at the national level. 
If a unit does not have a current military FAI or FAIT one can be brought in on TD or the member can be sent to a nearby unit offering a MBFA course.


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## ModlrMike

I'm not sure exactly what your asking, but if you want to know if your certificate would be the same thing, then I think yes.

That being said, I agree with the rest of what kratz wrote.


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## Misses muffett

I'm not looking for reimbursement. Just looking to ensure that the certificate will be accepted as standard.  Seems to be a misconception that I'm trying to clear up. Some say yay some say nay- seems like an old legend someone took and ran with standard first aid - should be the standard.


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## Rheostatic

If you don't already have the certification, then I agree with Kratz; you should go through the CAF to get the training.

If you already have the Standard First Aid certification and it's still valid, then yes you can have it recognized and added to your MPRR.


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## Fishbone Jones

I did my FA and CPR as part of civilian employment. That record was accepted by the military for qualification.


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## Remius

Same.


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## sarahsmom

There is a military specific component to the DND course that obviously will not be taught on the civilian course. So your certificate might be accepted but it won't be exactly equivalent to the rest of your platoon.


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## Kilted

I am a First Aid Instructor and I have not seen anything official saying that a civilian certificate can or can not be accepted. I know that my unit has accepted them in the past. The certificates themselves are identical, the only difference between the course given in the civilian world and the military one is the four extra lessons COSR, self aid, etc. I have taught a joint civilian/military course with two civilian instructors which was a nightmare, one instructor was fine, the other was teaching wrong information (taught CPR wrong for one) and had no respect for timings, they went almost an hour over time for one lesson. At the end of the day the troops got two certificates.


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## Rheostatic

Right from the MPRR, alongside some other civilian certifications: 


		Code:
	

LICENCES and CERTIFICATES    ISSUED BY 
First Aid - Standard         St John Ambulance


But yes there is a military component which my be required for your purposes. For example, I had a BMQ candidate who was absent from first aid training, and standards would not allow him to substitute Standard First Aid (even the course delivered on base by CAF instructors).


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## kratz

In 2011, the congenial positive close working relationship with SJA was broken due to a series of things happening in Ottawa.
Prior to the breakdown, there was a free-flow between the two organisations. Instructors easily transferred, volunteers and their quals accepted ect...

With the current contract, there is an obvious chill between DND and SJA. Most of the previous benefits of working so closely together are absent.
Under the current CPM Instructions, Annex A. When an course is completed, a military first aid course report is sent to DND SC and that office produce the required first aid certificates, which have been purchased through the national program directly from SJA.

When a unit accepts an individual's civilian certificate, it breaks down the centralised tracking and control by DND SC on who is current and qualified. 
This makes it more difficult and potentially more expensive when contract negotiations begin.


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## BDTyre

Rheostatic said:
			
		

> Right from the MPRR, alongside some other civilian certifications:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> LICENCES and CERTIFICATES    ISSUED BY
> First Aid - Standard         St John Ambulance
> 
> 
> But yes there is a military component which my be required for your purposes. For example, I had a BMQ candidate who was absent from first aid training, and standards would not allow him to substitute Standard First Aid (even the course delivered on base by CAF instructors).



I just renewed mine in October and I don't recall going over a military specific portion (yes, it is in the book). Our two days were just focused on basic first aid and CPR.

And I still don't have my certificate...


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## Misses muffett

At St. John ambulance you get your certificate the same day. The military process as per is long and drawn out sometimes especially when paperwork sits on people's desks. Last time I took first aid with the military it took a year to get the certificate delivered and that was after I inquired about it.


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## RocketRichard

Misses muffett said:
			
		

> At St. John ambulance you get your certificate the same day. The military process as per is long and drawn out sometimes especially when paperwork sits on people's desks. Last time I took first aid with the military it took a year to get the certificate delivered and that was after I inquired about it.


Can confirm. Took mine 3 years ago and still no certificate...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PuckChaser

Do you guys need it to hang on your office wall or something? First Aid is just a 3 year annoyance that I have to suffer through so I can DAG Green. They can save the paperwork as long as MonitorMass is updated in a timely fashion.


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## RocketRichard

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Do you guys need it to hang on your office wall or something? First Aid is just a 3 year annoyance that I have to suffer through so I can DAG Green. They can save the paperwork as long as MonitorMass is updated in a timely fashion.


In addition, it was never put in MM so had to use my FA cert from my Civi job. Sigh. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BDTyre

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Do you guys need it to hang on your office wall or something? First Aid is just a 3 year annoyance that I have to suffer through so I can DAG Green. They can save the paperwork as long as MonitorMass is updated in a timely fashion.



At one point we were told to keep the card in our wallets in case we ever need it when we our out and about, not in uniform and have to perform first aid. But then, we're also supposed to take the little two-way valve mask and gloves in the fashionable SJA pouch with us as well.


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## TheSnake

Who does First Aid with BMQ again is it St John or Red Cross


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## kratz

TheSnake said:
			
		

> Who does First Aid with BMQ again is it St John or Red Cross



reference: CF Mil Pers Instr 03/16 : First Aid, Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation and Automated External Defibrillation Training

The current contract is with SJA. 
It is a military FAI who delivers the training, through DND SC to SJA.


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