# Re: Supplementary Order of Battle



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Wyn van der Schee <vandersw@cadvision.com>* on *Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:17:03 -0700*
On Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:26:52 -0500  Patrick Cain wrote:
>This raises one of my eternal Canadian Army questions - What is the
>‘Supplementary Order of Battle‘, which 1 IRRegofC and The Perth Regiment
>and The Brant Dragoons and all the rest of them supposedly belong to? Is it
>written down somewhere? Does it imply a commitment to raise the regiments
>to a war strength at some future mobilization? Does the concept differ from
>disbandment?
>
>
>Confused in Toronto,
The Supplementary Order of Battle SOB was established as part of the
implementation of the Suttie Commission recommendations in late 1964 and
early 1965. By way of background, the Suttie Commission was established to
examine the Militia with a view to making it more efficient and effective
sound familiar?. The Commission recommended a reduction in the number of
units, but to avoid the unpalatable term "disbandment" the SOB was dreamed
up as an alternative. It was also an alternative to amalgamation. The SOB
was to be a kind of a holding list for names of inactive units. The full
description for the process was: reduced to nil strength, made inactive and
transferred to the supplementary order of battle. I am not aware of any
stated intention to reactivate units in the event of mobilization but it
would be a logical step. More units were transferred to the SOB in 1968 and
1970.
The full list of SOB units is probably available from the Directorate of
Heritage and History they are certainly not listed in any mobilization
plan, if for no other reason than there isn‘t one. It includes, among
others, The Perth Regiment, 57th Field Artillery Regiment 2nd/10th
Dragoons RCA, The Halifax Rifles RCAC, The South Saskatchewan Regiment,
The Victoria Rifles of Canada, Irish Fusiliers of Canada The Vancouver
Regiment, 14th Canadian Hussars, 4th Princess Louise Dragoon Guards, 19th
Alberta Dragoons, etc, etc. A few units were amalgamated: The Sherbrooke
Regiment RCAC and 7th/11th Hussars formed The Sherbrooke Hussars RCAC
and The Highland Light Infantry of Canada and The Scots Fusiliers of Canada
formed The Highland Fusiliers of Canada now Royal.
I hope this helps.
Wyn van der Schee
Calgary, Alberta
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Patrick Cain <patrickcain@snappingturtle.net>* on *Sat, 01 Apr 2000 00:51:25 -0500*
At 16:17 31/03/2000 -0700, you wrote:
>
>The SOB
>was to be a kind of a holding list for names of inactive units. The full
>description for the process was: reduced to nil strength, made inactive and
>transferred to the supplementary order of battle. I am not aware of any
>stated intention to reactivate units in the event of mobilization but it
>would be a logical step. 
Interesting. But how does that differ, *administratively*, from what
happened to the Airborne?
Patrick Cain
voice: 416 539-0939
fax:    416 515-3698
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"John Hill" <jhill66@HOTMAIL.COM>* on *Sat, 01 Apr 2000 11:18:30 PST*
As a former member of The Airborne Regiment I took a little time to discover 
the answer to this question.
The units listed on the SOB can be "re-activated" very easily, and in the 
event of a major conflict they would most probably be.  But their status 
would most likely be that that of training and holding units initially.
The Airborne Regiment was disbanded.  This means that the powers that be do 
not see the likelyhood of the Regiment ever being re-activated.  In fact it 
would be very difficult to re-activate it as a rule.  But exceptions to this 
rule have happened, though rarely.
Big John
>From: Patrick Cain 
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>Subject: Re: Supplementary Order of Battle
>Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 00:51:25 -0500
>
>At 16:17 31/03/2000 -0700, you wrote:
> >
>
> >The SOB
> >was to be a kind of a holding list for names of inactive units. The full
> >description for the process was: reduced to nil strength, made inactive 
>and
> >transferred to the supplementary order of battle. I am not aware of any
> >stated intention to reactivate units in the event of mobilization but it
> >would be a logical step.
>
>Interesting. But how does that differ, *administratively*, from what
>happened to the Airborne?
>
>
>
>Patrick Cain
>
>voice: 416 539-0939
>fax:    416 515-3698
>--------------------------------------------------------
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>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Patrick Cain <patrickcain@snappingturtle.net>* on *Sat, 01 Apr 2000 14:36:49 -0500*
At 11:18 01/04/2000 PST, John Hill wrote:
>The units listed on the SOB can be "re-activated" very easily, and in the 
>event of a major conflict they would most probably be. 
Why would it be easier to resurrect a militia unit that had been disbanded
for thirty years than to create one from stratch? 
I can see how you‘d save some time on ceremonial issues - the colours would
probably be hanging in a church somewhere, and you might be able to track
down the mess silver in a museum vault - but apart from that area, I don‘t
see it. 
Patrick Cain
voice: 416 539-0939
fax:    416 515-3698
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"John Hill" <jhill66@HOTMAIL.COM>* on *Sat, 01 Apr 2000 12:43:51 PST*
Remember, Armies runon paper work...it‘s an administrative thing, as well as 
a legal thing.  The CDS can order the re-activation of a unit, but Parliment 
or the Privy Council must pass an Order in Council to reformulate a 
disbanded unit.  Disbandment also connotates shame suppositly.
>From: Patrick Cain 
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>Subject: Re: Supplementary Order of Battle
>Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 14:36:49 -0500
>
>At 11:18 01/04/2000 PST, John Hill wrote:
>
> >The units listed on the SOB can be "re-activated" very easily, and in the
> >event of a major conflict they would most probably be.
>
>Why would it be easier to resurrect a militia unit that had been disbanded
>for thirty years than to create one from stratch?
>
>I can see how you‘d save some time on ceremonial issues - the colours would
>probably be hanging in a church somewhere, and you might be able to track
>down the mess silver in a museum vault - but apart from that area, I don‘t
>see it.
>
>
>
>Patrick Cain
>
>voice: 416 539-0939
>fax:    416 515-3698
>--------------------------------------------------------
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>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>message body.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Gunner <randr1@home.com>* on *Sat, 01 Apr 2000 15:40:28 -0700*
Actually the CDS does not have the power to form or disband units under
his command, he can only recommend.  Units are formed by a Canadain
Forces Organization Order CFOO signed by the MND.  Part of the problem
with Reserve Restructure is the MND must be the one to "disband" units
and place them on the Supplementary Order of Battle, hence, he will be
held politically liable for that action.  We all know what happens when
a politician could be held accountable for something...indecision.  Of
note, if the CF endorses the Army‘s plan of a two brigade structure for
its‘ Regular formations and units, what‘s to stop incorporating the
Reserve changes as part of the larger plan of Army restructure.  This
would take alot of the political heat of the MND as his decision would
effect regular and reserve at the same time to provide a "better" Army
to Canadians.
John Hill wrote:
> 
> Remember, Armies runon paper work...it‘s an administrative thing, as well as
> a legal thing.  The CDS can order the re-activation of a unit, but Parliment
> or the Privy Council must pass an Order in Council to reformulate a
> disbanded unit.  Disbandment also connotates shame suppositly.
> >From: Patrick Cain 
> >Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> >To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> >Subject: Re: Supplementary Order of Battle
> >Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 14:36:49 -0500
> >
> >At 11:18 01/04/2000 PST, John Hill wrote:
> >
> > >The units listed on the SOB can be "re-activated" very easily, and in the
> > >event of a major conflict they would most probably be.
> >
> >Why would it be easier to resurrect a militia unit that had been disbanded
> >for thirty years than to create one from stratch?
> >
> >I can see how you‘d save some time on ceremonial issues - the colours would
> >probably be hanging in a church somewhere, and you might be able to track
> >down the mess silver in a museum vault - but apart from that area, I don‘t
> >see it.
> >
> >
> >
> >Patrick Cain
> >
> >voice: 416 539-0939
> >fax:    416 515-3698
> >--------------------------------------------------------
> >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> >message body.
> 
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
> 
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com>* on *Sun, 02 Apr 2000 16:43:03 -0700*
I agree with Patrick. Once a regiment is gone, it‘s gone. It would be
easier to just create additional battalions of existing regiments than
to bring back one long since dead.
Occasionally, historically, a unit has been "reducued to nil strength
and placed in a state of suspended animation." This happened to some
units in WW2 that were not mobilized for the Active Force and their
Reserve unit had dwindled down to a small number. They were brought back
in 1946. 
My "Senate" comments notwithstanding, Ottawa can do whatever it wants.
They can even create traditions and stretch a continuity that does not
exist and has been broken for decades. Our Cdn Abn Regt was created in
1967 and was given the customs, battle honours, etc of a couple of units
that had been disbanded for over 20 years as if the older units had just
been disbanded the previous day and the men automatically transferred on
paper the next day to the new unit.
But a Senate legal "injunction" might make for interesting headlines in
the papers, should the Royal Whatevers become the 39th Mobile Bath and
Laundry Regiment Royal Whatevers.
Heard today that there is another attempt in Ottawa to do away with the
HMCS prefix to our frigates, etc. This time it‘s a bilingual issue not
directly anti-monarchist. This is probably just an old rumour making the
rounds, but some advocates just never quit.
Patrick Cain wrote:
> 
> At 11:18 01/04/2000 PST, John Hill wrote:
> 
> >The units listed on the SOB can be "re-activated" very easily, and in the
> >event of a major conflict they would most probably be.
> 
> Why would it be easier to resurrect a militia unit that had been disbanded
> for thirty years than to create one from stratch?
> 
> I can see how you‘d save some time on ceremonial issues - the colours would
> probably be hanging in a church somewhere, and you might be able to track
> down the mess silver in a museum vault - but apart from that area, I don‘t
> see it.
> 
> Patrick Cain
> 
> voice: 416 539-0939
> fax:    416 515-3698
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"John Hill" <jhill66@HOTMAIL.COM>* on *Fri, 07 Apr 2000 15:16:11 PDT*
Actually, the CDS has the delegated power to activate units.  To form or 
disband units is still the prerogative of the MND.
>From: Gunner 
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>Subject: Re: Supplementary Order of Battle
>Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 15:40:28 -0700
>
>Actually the CDS does not have the power to form or disband units under
>his command, he can only recommend.  Units are formed by a Canadain
>Forces Organization Order CFOO signed by the MND.  Part of the problem
>with Reserve Restructure is the MND must be the one to "disband" units
>and place them on the Supplementary Order of Battle, hence, he will be
>held politically liable for that action.  We all know what happens when
>a politician could be held accountable for something...indecision.  Of
>note, if the CF endorses the Army‘s plan of a two brigade structure for
>its‘ Regular formations and units, what‘s to stop incorporating the
>Reserve changes as part of the larger plan of Army restructure.  This
>would take alot of the political heat of the MND as his decision would
>effect regular and reserve at the same time to provide a "better" Army
>to Canadians.
>
>John Hill wrote:
> >
> > Remember, Armies runon paper work...it‘s an administrative thing, as 
>well as
> > a legal thing.  The CDS can order the re-activation of a unit, but 
>Parliment
> > or the Privy Council must pass an Order in Council to reformulate a
> > disbanded unit.  Disbandment also connotates shame suppositly.
> > >From: Patrick Cain 
> > >Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > >To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > >Subject: Re: Supplementary Order of Battle
> > >Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 14:36:49 -0500
> > >
> > >At 11:18 01/04/2000 PST, John Hill wrote:
> > >
> > > >The units listed on the SOB can be "re-activated" very easily, and in 
>the
> > > >event of a major conflict they would most probably be.
> > >
> > >Why would it be easier to resurrect a militia unit that had been 
>disbanded
> > >for thirty years than to create one from stratch?
> > >
> > >I can see how you‘d save some time on ceremonial issues - the colours 
>would
> > >probably be hanging in a church somewhere, and you might be able to 
>track
> > >down the mess silver in a museum vault - but apart from that area, I 
>don‘t
> > >see it.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Patrick Cain
> > >
> > >voice: 416 539-0939
> > >fax:    416 515-3698
> > >--------------------------------------------------------
> > >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > >message body.
> >
> > ______________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Gunner <randr1@home.com>* on *Fri, 07 Apr 2000 17:07:11 -0600*
John, I‘m not sure what you mean when you say the CDS has the delegated
power to activate units.  When 3 PPCLI, 3 RCR and 3 R22R were reformed
it was authorized by the MND through a CFOO...hence it was not the CDSs
decision to activate them, rather, he recommended approval of the CFOO. 
The CDS is commissioned to exercise command and control of units, bases
and formations of the CF.  To activate those units, bases and formations
of the CF requires political approval.
Comments?
John Hill wrote:
> 
> Actually, the CDS has the delegated power to activate units.  To form or
> disband units is still the prerogative of the MND.
> 
> >From: Gunner 
> >Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> >To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> >Subject: Re: Supplementary Order of Battle
> >Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 15:40:28 -0700
> >
> >Actually the CDS does not have the power to form or disband units under
> >his command, he can only recommend.  Units are formed by a Canadain
> >Forces Organization Order CFOO signed by the MND.  Part of the problem
> >with Reserve Restructure is the MND must be the one to "disband" units
> >and place them on the Supplementary Order of Battle, hence, he will be
> >held politically liable for that action.  We all know what happens when
> >a politician could be held accountable for something...indecision.  Of
> >note, if the CF endorses the Army‘s plan of a two brigade structure for
> >its‘ Regular formations and units, what‘s to stop incorporating the
> >Reserve changes as part of the larger plan of Army restructure.  This
> >would take alot of the political heat of the MND as his decision would
> >effect regular and reserve at the same time to provide a "better" Army
> >to Canadians.
> >
> >John Hill wrote:
> > >
> > > Remember, Armies runon paper work...it‘s an administrative thing, as
> >well as
> > > a legal thing.  The CDS can order the re-activation of a unit, but
> >Parliment
> > > or the Privy Council must pass an Order in Council to reformulate a
> > > disbanded unit.  Disbandment also connotates shame suppositly.
> > > >From: Patrick Cain 
> > > >Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > >To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > >Subject: Re: Supplementary Order of Battle
> > > >Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 14:36:49 -0500
> > > >
> > > >At 11:18 01/04/2000 PST, John Hill wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >The units listed on the SOB can be "re-activated" very easily, and in
> >the
> > > > >event of a major conflict they would most probably be.
> > > >
> > > >Why would it be easier to resurrect a militia unit that had been
> >disbanded
> > > >for thirty years than to create one from stratch?
> > > >
> > > >I can see how you‘d save some time on ceremonial issues - the colours
> >would
> > > >probably be hanging in a church somewhere, and you might be able to
> >track
> > > >down the mess silver in a museum vault - but apart from that area, I
> >don‘t
> > > >see it.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Patrick Cain
> > > >
> > > >voice: 416 539-0939
> > > >fax:    416 515-3698
> > > >--------------------------------------------------------
> > > >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > >message body.
> > >
> > > ______________________________________________________
> > > Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
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> > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > message body.
> >--------------------------------------------------------
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> 
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> 
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"John Hill" <jhill66@HOTMAIL.COM>* on *Fri, 07 Apr 2000 16:55:22 PDT*
What happened at that point was activation of the Ministers‘ white paper and 
a reformation of that element as a whole.  But the CDS has the power to 
activate units...  That being said, it would be politically astute for the 
CDS to do so on his own during "normal" times.  Does that clear it up?
>
>John, I‘m not sure what you mean when you say the CDS has the delegated
>power to activate units.  When 3 PPCLI, 3 RCR and 3 R22R were reformed
>it was authorized by the MND through a CFOO...hence it was not the CDSs
>decision to activate them, rather, he recommended approval of the CFOO.
>The CDS is commissioned to exercise command and control of units, bases
>and formations of the CF.  To activate those units, bases and formations
>of the CF requires political approval.
>
>Comments?
>
>John Hill wrote:
> >
> > Actually, the CDS has the delegated power to activate units.  To form or
> > disband units is still the prerogative of the MND.
> >
> > >From: Gunner 
> > >Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > >To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > >Subject: Re: Supplementary Order of Battle
> > >Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 15:40:28 -0700
> > >
> > >Actually the CDS does not have the power to form or disband units under
> > >his command, he can only recommend.  Units are formed by a Canadain
> > >Forces Organization Order CFOO signed by the MND.  Part of the 
>problem
> > >with Reserve Restructure is the MND must be the one to "disband" units
> > >and place them on the Supplementary Order of Battle, hence, he will be
> > >held politically liable for that action.  We all know what happens when
> > >a politician could be held accountable for something...indecision.  Of
> > >note, if the CF endorses the Army‘s plan of a two brigade structure for
> > >its‘ Regular formations and units, what‘s to stop incorporating the
> > >Reserve changes as part of the larger plan of Army restructure.  This
> > >would take alot of the political heat of the MND as his decision would
> > >effect regular and reserve at the same time to provide a "better" Army
> > >to Canadians.
> > >
> > >John Hill wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Remember, Armies runon paper work...it‘s an administrative thing, as
> > >well as
> > > > a legal thing.  The CDS can order the re-activation of a unit, but
> > >Parliment
> > > > or the Privy Council must pass an Order in Council to reformulate a
> > > > disbanded unit.  Disbandment also connotates shame suppositly.
> > > > >From: Patrick Cain 
> > > > >Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > > >To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > > >Subject: Re: Supplementary Order of Battle
> > > > >Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 14:36:49 -0500
> > > > >
> > > > >At 11:18 01/04/2000 PST, John Hill wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >The units listed on the SOB can be "re-activated" very easily, 
>and in
> > >the
> > > > > >event of a major conflict they would most probably be.
> > > > >
> > > > >Why would it be easier to resurrect a militia unit that had been
> > >disbanded
> > > > >for thirty years than to create one from stratch?
> > > > >
> > > > >I can see how you‘d save some time on ceremonial issues - the 
>colours
> > >would
> > > > >probably be hanging in a church somewhere, and you might be able to
> > >track
> > > > >down the mess silver in a museum vault - but apart from that area, 
>I
> > >don‘t
> > > > >see it.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Patrick Cain
> > > > >
> > > > >voice: 416 539-0939
> > > > >fax:    416 515-3698
> > > > >--------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > >message body.
> > > >
> > > > ______________________________________________________
> > > > Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > message body.
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> >
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> >
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>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>message body.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Gunner <randr1@home.com>* on *Fri, 07 Apr 2000 18:14:43 -0600*
Nope your wrong.  The CDS does not have the power to activate or
deactivate units.  That remains with the political authority MND. 
This becomes a problem, for instance, in reserve restrucuture where the
military wants to "retire" reserve units as they are no longer relevant,
affordable and/or viable.  When the CDS presented the options for the
Reserves it then moved into the political realm.  Hence the wait.  
Of note, the CDSs powers remain the same during peace and war ... there
is no "normal" time for him to be politically astute.  His influence
rather increases and decreases as the internal and external threat
warrant.  
John Hill wrote:
> 
> What happened at that point was activation of the Ministers‘ white paper and
> a reformation of that element as a whole.  But the CDS has the power to
> activate units...  That being said, it would be politically astute for the
> CDS to do so on his own during "normal" times.  Does that clear it up?
> >
> >John, I‘m not sure what you mean when you say the CDS has the delegated
> >power to activate units.  When 3 PPCLI, 3 RCR and 3 R22R were reformed
> >it was authorized by the MND through a CFOO...hence it was not the CDSs
> >decision to activate them, rather, he recommended approval of the CFOO.
> >The CDS is commissioned to exercise command and control of units, bases
> >and formations of the CF.  To activate those units, bases and formations
> >of the CF requires political approval.
> >
> >Comments?
> >
> >John Hill wrote:
> > >
> > > Actually, the CDS has the delegated power to activate units.  To form or
> > > disband units is still the prerogative of the MND.
> > >
> > > >From: Gunner 
> > > >Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > >To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > >Subject: Re: Supplementary Order of Battle
> > > >Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 15:40:28 -0700
> > > >
> > > >Actually the CDS does not have the power to form or disband units under
> > > >his command, he can only recommend.  Units are formed by a Canadain
> > > >Forces Organization Order CFOO signed by the MND.  Part of the
> >problem
> > > >with Reserve Restructure is the MND must be the one to "disband" units
> > > >and place them on the Supplementary Order of Battle, hence, he will be
> > > >held politically liable for that action.  We all know what happens when
> > > >a politician could be held accountable for something...indecision.  Of
> > > >note, if the CF endorses the Army‘s plan of a two brigade structure for
> > > >its‘ Regular formations and units, what‘s to stop incorporating the
> > > >Reserve changes as part of the larger plan of Army restructure.  This
> > > >would take alot of the political heat of the MND as his decision would
> > > >effect regular and reserve at the same time to provide a "better" Army
> > > >to Canadians.
> > > >
> > > >John Hill wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Remember, Armies runon paper work...it‘s an administrative thing, as
> > > >well as
> > > > > a legal thing.  The CDS can order the re-activation of a unit, but
> > > >Parliment
> > > > > or the Privy Council must pass an Order in Council to reformulate a
> > > > > disbanded unit.  Disbandment also connotates shame suppositly.
> > > > > >From: Patrick Cain 
> > > > > >Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > > > >To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > > > >Subject: Re: Supplementary Order of Battle
> > > > > >Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 14:36:49 -0500
> > > > > >
> > > > > >At 11:18 01/04/2000 PST, John Hill wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >The units listed on the SOB can be "re-activated" very easily,
> >and in
> > > >the
> > > > > > >event of a major conflict they would most probably be.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Why would it be easier to resurrect a militia unit that had been
> > > >disbanded
> > > > > >for thirty years than to create one from stratch?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I can see how you‘d save some time on ceremonial issues - the
> >colours
> > > >would
> > > > > >probably be hanging in a church somewhere, and you might be able to
> > > >track
> > > > > >down the mess silver in a museum vault - but apart from that area,
> >I
> > > >don‘t
> > > > > >see it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Patrick Cain
> > > > > >
> > > > > >voice: 416 539-0939
> > > > > >fax:    416 515-3698
> > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > > >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > > >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > > >message body.
> > > > >
> > > > > ______________________________________________________
> > > > > Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
> > > > >
> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > > message body.
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> > > >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > >message body.
> > >
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> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
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> > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
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> > > message body.
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> 
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> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"John Hill" <jhill66@HOTMAIL.COM>* on *Fri, 07 Apr 2000 17:34:10 PDT*
I‘ve got to disagree with you.  I‘m also speaking from the experiance of the 
2 years I was "exiled in the MNDs‘ Office as an ADC.
>Nope your wrong.  The CDS does not have the power to activate or
>deactivate units.  That remains with the political authority MND.
>This becomes a problem, for instance, in reserve restrucuture where the
>military wants to "retire" reserve units as they are no longer relevant,
>affordable and/or viable.  When the CDS presented the options for the
>Reserves it then moved into the political realm.  Hence the wait.
>
>Of note, the CDSs powers remain the same during peace and war ... there
>is no "normal" time for him to be politically astute.  His influence
>rather increases and decreases as the internal and external threat
>warrant.
>
>John Hill wrote:
> >
> > What happened at that point was activation of the Ministers‘ white paper 
>and
> > a reformation of that element as a whole.  But the CDS has the power to
> > activate units...  That being said, it would be politically astute for 
>the
> > CDS to do so on his own during "normal" times.  Does that clear it up?
> > >
> > >John, I‘m not sure what you mean when you say the CDS has the delegated
> > >power to activate units.  When 3 PPCLI, 3 RCR and 3 R22R were reformed
> > >it was authorized by the MND through a CFOO...hence it was not the CDSs
> > >decision to activate them, rather, he recommended approval of the CFOO.
> > >The CDS is commissioned to exercise command and control of units, bases
> > >and formations of the CF.  To activate those units, bases and 
>formations
> > >of the CF requires political approval.
> > >
> > >Comments?
> > >
> > >John Hill wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Actually, the CDS has the delegated power to activate units.  To 
>form or
> > > > disband units is still the prerogative of the MND.
> > > >
> > > > >From: Gunner 
> > > > >Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > > >To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > > >Subject: Re: Supplementary Order of Battle
> > > > >Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 15:40:28 -0700
> > > > >
> > > > >Actually the CDS does not have the power to form or disband units 
>under
> > > > >his command, he can only recommend.  Units are formed by a Canadain
> > > > >Forces Organization Order CFOO signed by the MND.  Part of the
> > >problem
> > > > >with Reserve Restructure is the MND must be the one to "disband" 
>units
> > > > >and place them on the Supplementary Order of Battle, hence, he will 
>be
> > > > >held politically liable for that action.  We all know what happens 
>when
> > > > >a politician could be held accountable for something...indecision.  
>Of
> > > > >note, if the CF endorses the Army‘s plan of a two brigade structure 
>for
> > > > >its‘ Regular formations and units, what‘s to stop incorporating the
> > > > >Reserve changes as part of the larger plan of Army restructure.  
>This
> > > > >would take alot of the political heat of the MND as his decision 
>would
> > > > >effect regular and reserve at the same time to provide a "better" 
>Army
> > > > >to Canadians.
> > > > >
> > > > >John Hill wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Remember, Armies runon paper work...it‘s an administrative 
>thing, as
> > > > >well as
> > > > > > a legal thing.  The CDS can order the re-activation of a unit, 
>but
> > > > >Parliment
> > > > > > or the Privy Council must pass an Order in Council to 
>reformulate a
> > > > > > disbanded unit.  Disbandment also connotates shame suppositly.
> > > > > > >From: Patrick Cain 
> > > > > > >Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > > > > >To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > > > > >Subject: Re: Supplementary Order of Battle
> > > > > > >Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 14:36:49 -0500
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >At 11:18 01/04/2000 PST, John Hill wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >The units listed on the SOB can be "re-activated" very 
>easily,
> > >and in
> > > > >the
> > > > > > > >event of a major conflict they would most probably be.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Why would it be easier to resurrect a militia unit that had 
>been
> > > > >disbanded
> > > > > > >for thirty years than to create one from stratch?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >I can see how you‘d save some time on ceremonial issues - the
> > >colours
> > > > >would
> > > > > > >probably be hanging in a church somewhere, and you might be 
>able to
> > > > >track
> > > > > > >down the mess silver in a museum vault - but apart from that 
>area,
> > >I
> > > > >don‘t
> > > > > > >see it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Patrick Cain
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >voice: 416 539-0939
> > > > > > >fax:    416 515-3698
> > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > > > >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > > > >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > > > >message body.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ______________________________________________________
> > > > > > Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > > > message body.
> > > > >--------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > >message body.
> > > >
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> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > message body.
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> > >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > >message body.
> >
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> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
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> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Gunner <randr1@home.com>* on *Fri, 07 Apr 2000 20:45:48 -0600*
The MND doesn‘t have ADCs...Aide de Camps are only used by Royalty and
General Officers.  The MND has what is know as Military Staff Officers. 
The fact is units, bases and formations are raised and "disbanded" based
on the stroke of a pen, known as a CFOO Canadian Forces Organizational
Order.  Which MND did you serve under?  Unless it was before
unification, I don‘t believe things were that different in the late
60s/70s.
I‘ve been wrong before, but, I was usually mistaken!
Cheers!  
John Hill wrote:
> 
> I‘ve got to disagree with you.  I‘m also speaking from the experiance of the
> 2 years I was "exiled in the MNDs‘ Office as an ADC.
> 
> >Nope your wrong.  The CDS does not have the power to activate or
> >deactivate units.  That remains with the political authority MND.
> >This becomes a problem, for instance, in reserve restrucuture where the
> >military wants to "retire" reserve units as they are no longer relevant,
> >affordable and/or viable.  When the CDS presented the options for the
> >Reserves it then moved into the political realm.  Hence the wait.
> >
> >Of note, the CDSs powers remain the same during peace and war ... there
> >is no "normal" time for him to be politically astute.  His influence
> >rather increases and decreases as the internal and external threat
> >warrant.
> >
> >John Hill wrote:
> > >
> > > What happened at that point was activation of the Ministers‘ white paper
> >and
> > > a reformation of that element as a whole.  But the CDS has the power to
> > > activate units...  That being said, it would be politically astute for
> >the
> > > CDS to do so on his own during "normal" times.  Does that clear it up?
> > > >
> > > >John, I‘m not sure what you mean when you say the CDS has the delegated
> > > >power to activate units.  When 3 PPCLI, 3 RCR and 3 R22R were reformed
> > > >it was authorized by the MND through a CFOO...hence it was not the CDSs
> > > >decision to activate them, rather, he recommended approval of the CFOO.
> > > >The CDS is commissioned to exercise command and control of units, bases
> > > >and formations of the CF.  To activate those units, bases and
> >formations
> > > >of the CF requires political approval.
> > > >
> > > >Comments?
> > > >
> > > >John Hill wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually, the CDS has the delegated power to activate units.  To
> >form or
> > > > > disband units is still the prerogative of the MND.
> > > > >
> > > > > >From: Gunner 
> > > > > >Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > > > >To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > > > >Subject: Re: Supplementary Order of Battle
> > > > > >Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 15:40:28 -0700
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Actually the CDS does not have the power to form or disband units
> >under
> > > > > >his command, he can only recommend.  Units are formed by a Canadain
> > > > > >Forces Organization Order CFOO signed by the MND.  Part of the
> > > >problem
> > > > > >with Reserve Restructure is the MND must be the one to "disband"
> >units
> > > > > >and place them on the Supplementary Order of Battle, hence, he will
> >be
> > > > > >held politically liable for that action.  We all know what happens
> >when
> > > > > >a politician could be held accountable for something...indecision.
> >Of
> > > > > >note, if the CF endorses the Army‘s plan of a two brigade structure
> >for
> > > > > >its‘ Regular formations and units, what‘s to stop incorporating the
> > > > > >Reserve changes as part of the larger plan of Army restructure.
> >This
> > > > > >would take alot of the political heat of the MND as his decision
> >would
> > > > > >effect regular and reserve at the same time to provide a "better"
> >Army
> > > > > >to Canadians.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >John Hill wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Remember, Armies runon paper work...it‘s an administrative
> >thing, as
> > > > > >well as
> > > > > > > a legal thing.  The CDS can order the re-activation of a unit,
> >but
> > > > > >Parliment
> > > > > > > or the Privy Council must pass an Order in Council to
> >reformulate a
> > > > > > > disbanded unit.  Disbandment also connotates shame suppositly.
> > > > > > > >From: Patrick Cain 
> > > > > > > >Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > > > > > >To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > > > > > >Subject: Re: Supplementary Order of Battle
> > > > > > > >Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 14:36:49 -0500
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >At 11:18 01/04/2000 PST, John Hill wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >The units listed on the SOB can be "re-activated" very
> >easily,
> > > >and in
> > > > > >the
> > > > > > > > >event of a major conflict they would most probably be.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Why would it be easier to resurrect a militia unit that had
> >been
> > > > > >disbanded
> > > > > > > >for thirty years than to create one from stratch?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >I can see how you‘d save some time on ceremonial issues - the
> > > >colours
> > > > > >would
> > > > > > > >probably be hanging in a church somewhere, and you might be
> >able to
> > > > > >track
> > > > > > > >down the mess silver in a museum vault - but apart from that
> >area,
> > > >I
> > > > > >don‘t
> > > > > > > >see it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Patrick Cain
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >voice: 416 539-0939
> > > > > > > >fax:    416 515-3698
> > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > > > > >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > > > > >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > > > > >message body.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ______________________________________________________
> > > > > > > Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > > > > message body.
> > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > > >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > > >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > > >message body.
> > > > >
> > > > > ______________________________________________________
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> > > > >
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> > > >message body.
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> > >
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> > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
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> 
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> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com>* on *Fri, 07 Apr 2000 22:00:21 -0700*
I agree with Gunner.
Of course only the MND has the authority to deactivate units. You can be
damned sure that once the declining number of WW2 vets/Legion members
loses its critical mass of voting numbers and remember all the old
geezers do vote even if the young people don‘t there will be wholesale
slaughterhouse changes made. Then the vicious wolves will turn on what
remains of the Regular Force. Shame on them for "eating their young".
Gunner wrote:
> 
> Nope your wrong.  The CDS does not have the power to activate or
> deactivate units.  That remains with the political authority MND.
> This becomes a problem, for instance, in reserve restrucuture where the
> military wants to "retire" reserve units as they are no longer relevant,
> affordable and/or viable.  When the CDS presented the options for the
> Reserves it then moved into the political realm.  Hence the wait.
> 
> Of note, the CDSs powers remain the same during peace and war ... there
> is no "normal" time for him to be politically astute.  His influence
> rather increases and decreases as the internal and external threat
> warrant.
> 
> John Hill wrote:
> >
> > What happened at that point was activation of the Ministers‘ white paper and
> > a reformation of that element as a whole.  But the CDS has the power to
> > activate units...  That being said, it would be politically astute for the
> > CDS to do so on his own during "normal" times.  Does that clear it up?
> > >
> > >John, I‘m not sure what you mean when you say the CDS has the delegated
> > >power to activate units.  When 3 PPCLI, 3 RCR and 3 R22R were reformed
> > >it was authorized by the MND through a CFOO...hence it was not the CDSs
> > >decision to activate them, rather, he recommended approval of the CFOO.
> > >The CDS is commissioned to exercise command and control of units, bases
> > >and formations of the CF.  To activate those units, bases and formations
> > >of the CF requires political approval.
> > >
> > >Comments?
> > >
> > >John Hill wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Actually, the CDS has the delegated power to activate units.  To form or
> > > > disband units is still the prerogative of the MND.
> > > >
> > > > >From: Gunner 
> > > > >Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > > >To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > > >Subject: Re: Supplementary Order of Battle
> > > > >Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 15:40:28 -0700
> > > > >
> > > > >Actually the CDS does not have the power to form or disband units under
> > > > >his command, he can only recommend.  Units are formed by a Canadain
> > > > >Forces Organization Order CFOO signed by the MND.  Part of the
> > >problem
> > > > >with Reserve Restructure is the MND must be the one to "disband" units
> > > > >and place them on the Supplementary Order of Battle, hence, he will be
> > > > >held politically liable for that action.  We all know what happens when
> > > > >a politician could be held accountable for something...indecision.  Of
> > > > >note, if the CF endorses the Army‘s plan of a two brigade structure for
> > > > >its‘ Regular formations and units, what‘s to stop incorporating the
> > > > >Reserve changes as part of the larger plan of Army restructure.  This
> > > > >would take alot of the political heat of the MND as his decision would
> > > > >effect regular and reserve at the same time to provide a "better" Army
> > > > >to Canadians.
> > > > >
> > > > >John Hill wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Remember, Armies runon paper work...it‘s an administrative thing, as
> > > > >well as
> > > > > > a legal thing.  The CDS can order the re-activation of a unit, but
> > > > >Parliment
> > > > > > or the Privy Council must pass an Order in Council to reformulate a
> > > > > > disbanded unit.  Disbandment also connotates shame suppositly.
> > > > > > >From: Patrick Cain 
> > > > > > >Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > > > > >To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > > > > >Subject: Re: Supplementary Order of Battle
> > > > > > >Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 14:36:49 -0500
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >At 11:18 01/04/2000 PST, John Hill wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >The units listed on the SOB can be "re-activated" very easily,
> > >and in
> > > > >the
> > > > > > > >event of a major conflict they would most probably be.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Why would it be easier to resurrect a militia unit that had been
> > > > >disbanded
> > > > > > >for thirty years than to create one from stratch?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >I can see how you‘d save some time on ceremonial issues - the
> > >colours
> > > > >would
> > > > > > >probably be hanging in a church somewhere, and you might be able to
> > > > >track
> > > > > > >down the mess silver in a museum vault - but apart from that area,
> > >I
> > > > >don‘t
> > > > > > >see it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Patrick Cain
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >voice: 416 539-0939
> > > > > > >fax:    416 515-3698
> > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > > > >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > > > >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > > > >message body.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ______________________________________________________
> > > > > > Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > > > message body.
> > > > >--------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > >message body.
> > > >
> > > > ______________________________________________________
> > > > Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > message body.
> > >--------------------------------------------------------
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> > >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > >message body.
> >
> > ______________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
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> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"John Hill" <jhill66@HOTMAIL.COM>* on *Sat, 08 Apr 2000 11:32:56 PDT*
To my deep regret, Paul Helyer....I know, I know, but I didn‘t have much of 
a choice at the time.
>From: Gunner 
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>Subject: Re: Supplementary Order of Battle
>Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 20:45:48 -0600
>
>The MND doesn‘t have ADCs...Aide de Camps are only used by Royalty and
>General Officers.  The MND has what is know as Military Staff Officers.
>The fact is units, bases and formations are raised and "disbanded" based
>on the stroke of a pen, known as a CFOO Canadian Forces Organizational
>Order.  Which MND did you serve under?  Unless it was before
>unification, I don‘t believe things were that different in the late
>60s/70s.
>
>I‘ve been wrong before, but, I was usually mistaken!
>
>Cheers!
>
>John Hill wrote:
> >
> > I‘ve got to disagree with you.  I‘m also speaking from the experiance of 
>the
> > 2 years I was "exiled in the MNDs‘ Office as an ADC.
> >
> > >Nope your wrong.  The CDS does not have the power to activate or
> > >deactivate units.  That remains with the political authority MND.
> > >This becomes a problem, for instance, in reserve restrucuture where the
> > >military wants to "retire" reserve units as they are no longer 
>relevant,
> > >affordable and/or viable.  When the CDS presented the options for the
> > >Reserves it then moved into the political realm.  Hence the wait.
> > >
> > >Of note, the CDSs powers remain the same during peace and war ... there
> > >is no "normal" time for him to be politically astute.  His influence
> > >rather increases and decreases as the internal and external threat
> > >warrant.
> > >
> > >John Hill wrote:
> > > >
> > > > What happened at that point was activation of the Ministers‘ white 
>paper
> > >and
> > > > a reformation of that element as a whole.  But the CDS has the power 
>to
> > > > activate units...  That being said, it would be politically astute 
>for
> > >the
> > > > CDS to do so on his own during "normal" times.  Does that clear it 
>up?
> > > > >
> > > > >John, I‘m not sure what you mean when you say the CDS has the 
>delegated
> > > > >power to activate units.  When 3 PPCLI, 3 RCR and 3 R22R were 
>reformed
> > > > >it was authorized by the MND through a CFOO...hence it was not the 
>CDSs
> > > > >decision to activate them, rather, he recommended approval of the 
>CFOO.
> > > > >The CDS is commissioned to exercise command and control of units, 
>bases
> > > > >and formations of the CF.  To activate those units, bases and
> > >formations
> > > > >of the CF requires political approval.
> > > > >
> > > > >Comments?
> > > > >
> > > > >John Hill wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Actually, the CDS has the delegated power to activate units.  To
> > >form or
> > > > > > disband units is still the prerogative of the MND.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >From: Gunner 
> > > > > > >Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > > > > >To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > > > > >Subject: Re: Supplementary Order of Battle
> > > > > > >Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 15:40:28 -0700
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Actually the CDS does not have the power to form or disband 
>units
> > >under
> > > > > > >his command, he can only recommend.  Units are formed by a 
>Canadain
> > > > > > >Forces Organization Order CFOO signed by the MND.  Part of 
>the
> > > > >problem
> > > > > > >with Reserve Restructure is the MND must be the one to 
>"disband"
> > >units
> > > > > > >and place them on the Supplementary Order of Battle, hence, he 
>will
> > >be
> > > > > > >held politically liable for that action.  We all know what 
>happens
> > >when
> > > > > > >a politician could be held accountable for 
>something...indecision.
> > >Of
> > > > > > >note, if the CF endorses the Army‘s plan of a two brigade 
>structure
> > >for
> > > > > > >its‘ Regular formations and units, what‘s to stop incorporating 
>the
> > > > > > >Reserve changes as part of the larger plan of Army restructure.
> > >This
> > > > > > >would take alot of the political heat of the MND as his 
>decision
> > >would
> > > > > > >effect regular and reserve at the same time to provide a 
>"better"
> > >Army
> > > > > > >to Canadians.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >John Hill wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Remember, Armies runon paper work...it‘s an administrative
> > >thing, as
> > > > > > >well as
> > > > > > > > a legal thing.  The CDS can order the re-activation of a 
>unit,
> > >but
> > > > > > >Parliment
> > > > > > > > or the Privy Council must pass an Order in Council to
> > >reformulate a
> > > > > > > > disbanded unit.  Disbandment also connotates shame 
>suppositly.
> > > > > > > > >From: Patrick Cain 
> > > > > > > > >Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > > > > > > >To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: Supplementary Order of Battle
> > > > > > > > >Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 14:36:49 -0500
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >At 11:18 01/04/2000 PST, John Hill wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >The units listed on the SOB can be "re-activated" very
> > >easily,
> > > > >and in
> > > > > > >the
> > > > > > > > > >event of a major conflict they would most probably be.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >Why would it be easier to resurrect a militia unit that had
> > >been
> > > > > > >disbanded
> > > > > > > > >for thirty years than to create one from stratch?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >I can see how you‘d save some time on ceremonial issues - 
>the
> > > > >colours
> > > > > > >would
> > > > > > > > >probably be hanging in a church somewhere, and you might be
> > >able to
> > > > > > >track
> > > > > > > > >down the mess silver in a museum vault - but apart from 
>that
> > >area,
> > > > >I
> > > > > > >don‘t
> > > > > > > > >see it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >Patrick Cain
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >voice: 416 539-0939
> > > > > > > > >fax:    416 515-3698
> > > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > > > > > >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > > > > > >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > > > > > >message body.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > > > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > > > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > > > > > message body.
> > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > > > >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > > > >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > > > >message body.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ______________________________________________________
> > > > > > Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > > > message body.
> > > > >--------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > >message body.
> > > >
> > > > ______________________________________________________
> > > > Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > message body.
> > >--------------------------------------------------------
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> > >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > >message body.
> >
> > ______________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
>--------------------------------------------------------
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>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>message body.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Gunner <randr1@home.com>* on *Sat, 08 Apr 2000 12:47:07 -0600*
Paul Hellyer, not Paul Helyer.  I sometimes thing Hellyer paid the price
for doing something that should have been done after WWII and that the
three services couldn‘t do on their own.  The declining defence budget,
interservice rivalry and competitiveness, the Admiral‘s revolt under
Landrymore...there were serious problems with the military at that time
and they weren‘t the "Good Old Days" as some would have you believe. 
Was the Hellyerization of the military perfect, of course not, however,
I don‘t think anyone took another serious look at the military until
Perrin I want subs! Beatty came along unfortunately the country was
not willing to follow the PCs or able to pay the bill.  Take Art
Eggleton, if he ever makes a decision on Reserve Restructure, even
though it is considered the right one, he will be either branded a
"destroyer" of the reserves, or the "destroyer" of an opportunity to
make the military more relevant in the 21st century.  
Cheers!
John Hill wrote:
> 
> To my deep regret, Paul Helyer....I know, I know, but I didn‘t have much of
> a choice at the time.
> 
> >From: Gunner 
> >Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> >To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> >Subject: Re: Supplementary Order of Battle
> >Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 20:45:48 -0600
> >
> >The MND doesn‘t have ADCs...Aide de Camps are only used by Royalty and
> >General Officers.  The MND has what is know as Military Staff Officers.
> >The fact is units, bases and formations are raised and "disbanded" based
> >on the stroke of a pen, known as a CFOO Canadian Forces Organizational
> >Order.  Which MND did you serve under?  Unless it was before
> >unification, I don‘t believe things were that different in the late
> >60s/70s.
> >
> >I‘ve been wrong before, but, I was usually mistaken!
> >
> >Cheers!
> >
> >John Hill wrote:
> > >
> > > I‘ve got to disagree with you.  I‘m also speaking from the experiance of
> >the
> > > 2 years I was "exiled in the MNDs‘ Office as an ADC.
> > >
> > > >Nope your wrong.  The CDS does not have the power to activate or
> > > >deactivate units.  That remains with the political authority MND.
> > > >This becomes a problem, for instance, in reserve restrucuture where the
> > > >military wants to "retire" reserve units as they are no longer
> >relevant,
> > > >affordable and/or viable.  When the CDS presented the options for the
> > > >Reserves it then moved into the political realm.  Hence the wait.
> > > >
> > > >Of note, the CDSs powers remain the same during peace and war ... there
> > > >is no "normal" time for him to be politically astute.  His influence
> > > >rather increases and decreases as the internal and external threat
> > > >warrant.
> > > >
> > > >John Hill wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > What happened at that point was activation of the Ministers‘ white
> >paper
> > > >and
> > > > > a reformation of that element as a whole.  But the CDS has the power
> >to
> > > > > activate units...  That being said, it would be politically astute
> >for
> > > >the
> > > > > CDS to do so on his own during "normal" times.  Does that clear it
> >up?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >John, I‘m not sure what you mean when you say the CDS has the
> >delegated
> > > > > >power to activate units.  When 3 PPCLI, 3 RCR and 3 R22R were
> >reformed
> > > > > >it was authorized by the MND through a CFOO...hence it was not the
> >CDSs
> > > > > >decision to activate them, rather, he recommended approval of the
> >CFOO.
> > > > > >The CDS is commissioned to exercise command and control of units,
> >bases
> > > > > >and formations of the CF.  To activate those units, bases and
> > > >formations
> > > > > >of the CF requires political approval.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Comments?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >John Hill wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Actually, the CDS has the delegated power to activate units.  To
> > > >form or
> > > > > > > disband units is still the prerogative of the MND.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >From: Gunner 
> > > > > > > >Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > > > > > >To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > > > > > >Subject: Re: Supplementary Order of Battle
> > > > > > > >Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 15:40:28 -0700
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Actually the CDS does not have the power to form or disband
> >units
> > > >under
> > > > > > > >his command, he can only recommend.  Units are formed by a
> >Canadain
> > > > > > > >Forces Organization Order CFOO signed by the MND.  Part of
> >the
> > > > > >problem
> > > > > > > >with Reserve Restructure is the MND must be the one to
> >"disband"
> > > >units
> > > > > > > >and place them on the Supplementary Order of Battle, hence, he
> >will
> > > >be
> > > > > > > >held politically liable for that action.  We all know what
> >happens
> > > >when
> > > > > > > >a politician could be held accountable for
> >something...indecision.
> > > >Of
> > > > > > > >note, if the CF endorses the Army‘s plan of a two brigade
> >structure
> > > >for
> > > > > > > >its‘ Regular formations and units, what‘s to stop incorporating
> >the
> > > > > > > >Reserve changes as part of the larger plan of Army restructure.
> > > >This
> > > > > > > >would take alot of the political heat of the MND as his
> >decision
> > > >would
> > > > > > > >effect regular and reserve at the same time to provide a
> >"better"
> > > >Army
> > > > > > > >to Canadians.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >John Hill wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Remember, Armies runon paper work...it‘s an administrative
> > > >thing, as
> > > > > > > >well as
> > > > > > > > > a legal thing.  The CDS can order the re-activation of a
> >unit,
> > > >but
> > > > > > > >Parliment
> > > > > > > > > or the Privy Council must pass an Order in Council to
> > > >reformulate a
> > > > > > > > > disbanded unit.  Disbandment also connotates shame
> >suppositly.
> > > > > > > > > >From: Patrick Cain 
> > > > > > > > > >Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > > > > > > > >To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: Supplementary Order of Battle
> > > > > > > > > >Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 14:36:49 -0500
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >At 11:18 01/04/2000 PST, John Hill wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >The units listed on the SOB can be "re-activated" very
> > > >easily,
> > > > > >and in
> > > > > > > >the
> > > > > > > > > > >event of a major conflict they would most probably be.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >Why would it be easier to resurrect a militia unit that had
> > > >been
> > > > > > > >disbanded
> > > > > > > > > >for thirty years than to create one from stratch?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >I can see how you‘d save some time on ceremonial issues -
> >the
> > > > > >colours
> > > > > > > >would
> > > > > > > > > >probably be hanging in a church somewhere, and you might be
> > > >able to
> > > > > > > >track
> > > > > > > > > >down the mess silver in a museum vault - but apart from
> >that
> > > >area,
> > > > > >I
> > > > > > > >don‘t
> > > > > > > > > >see it.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >Patrick Cain
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >voice: 416 539-0939
> > > > > > > > > >fax:    416 515-3698
> > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > > > > > > >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > > > > > > >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > > > > > > >message body.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > > > > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > > > > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > > > > > > message body.
> > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > > > > >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > > > > >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > > > > >message body.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ______________________________________________________
> > > > > > > Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
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