# Patriot



## velveteen_knight (27 Sep 2006)

do you feel that it is important to be a patriot to serve in the armed forces, or is it even necessary?


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## George Wallace (27 Sep 2006)

Well Kid......and I am sure you are one........I suppose any form of 'Service to Country', be it Military, Law Enforcement, Fire Services, or any other form of Emergency Services, along with any job that contributes to the betterment of the Nation can be considered "Patriotic".  Why would you ask?  Do you think otherwise?


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## velveteen_knight (27 Sep 2006)

if thats true then i guess every job available would be concidered patriotic. personnally think patriotism is more a state of mind than an act. im just asking do you think a person with no belief in thier militarys ideals should be serving with them.


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## Hockeycaper (27 Sep 2006)

velveteen_knight said:
			
		

> if thats true then i guess every job available would be concidered patriotic. personnally think patriotism is more a state of mind than an act. im just asking do you think a person with no belief in thier militarys ideals should be serving with them.



If you didn't believe in what your country represents or is doing militarily ....Why would you join? For the money?  Oh I know all the real cool places they send you perhaps...


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## velveteen_knight (27 Sep 2006)

well yeah, why not?.. sure as hell beats line work, grocery stores, farming, and throwing garbage.


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## patrick666 (27 Sep 2006)

I would assume many people are content with those lines of work as opposed to becoming soldiers and risking their lives overseas.


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## Hockeycaper (27 Sep 2006)

Not trying to be rude but wondering where you are coming from....

Perhaps it's adventure your looking for....which I say, become a white water rafting guide and tour the world...Wear lots of Roots gear and get a tattoo ( of a Canadian flag). Tell everybody how much you can drink and how well you play hockey...because that is patriotic as well ...I think.


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## velveteen_knight (27 Sep 2006)

alright heres a situation:

a young man f***s up badly and drops out of high school, gets kicked out of his house and is forces to work dangerous temp jobs at half pay, so that he can continue.... well, living. after four years of monatunous (spelling?) hard labour he gets the idea in his head that he might like to join the armed forces, but is undecided with the ethics of his military... now would it be wrong for him to join, just for the work?


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## George Wallace (27 Sep 2006)

velveteen_knight said:
			
		

> im just asking do you think a person *with no belief in thier militarys ideals * should be serving with them.



No.

They are the low-life who really never fit in as 'Team Members'.  They put 'self' first, above all else.  They 'backstab' to get ahead.  They seldom have any morals, ethics, military ethos, nor leadership qualities.  They are the 'oxygen thieves' and 'waste of rations' who are leeches on the system.

Does that answer your question?


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## velveteen_knight (27 Sep 2006)

perfectly... sorry to get you in a huff, good sir.

good day.


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## cplcaldwell (27 Sep 2006)

No.

Because if this young man is visiting a forum inhabited by nasty old soldiers he probably already has that little seed of patriotism in him. The nasty old soldiers will train him and thus help _him_ develop it.

What would I say to the young man? Join a reserve unit for a year to see what it is like *OR* get yourself to a Canadian Forces Recruiting Center to see what a full time career can get you.

We were not all born patriots, we just had a Warrant Officer or two along the way who taught us how to be....


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## Teflon (27 Sep 2006)

velveteen_knight said:
			
		

> if thats true then i guess every job available would be concidered patriotic. personnally think patriotism is more a state of mind than an act. im just asking do you think a person with no belief in thier militarys ideals should be serving with them.



If you have no belief in our military's ideals than no you shouldn't join the military,... and we don't want you, much like if you don't agree with abortion, then you shouldn't work at an abortion clinic etc, etc,....


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## Fishbone Jones (27 Sep 2006)

velveteen_knight,

Welcome to Army.ca. Before continuing, please peruse the following links. Especially the highlighted ones. Read those first, beginning with the red one.

MSN and ICQ "short hand" -  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33247.0.html

Regarding the use of "MSN speak" versus the employment of prose which is correct in grammar, spelling and punctuation, please see: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/34015/post-260446.html#msg260446

Army.ca Conduct Guidelines: MUST READ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937.0.html

FRIENDLY ADVICE TO NEW MEMBERS - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937/post-259412.html#msg259412

Recruiting FAQ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21101.0.html

Infantry FAQ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21131.0.html

Canadian Forces Aptitude Test - http://army.ca/forums/threads/21101/post-103977.html#msg103977

Fitness requirements at enrolment, see page 12 of this brochure:
http://www.recruiting.forces.ca/media/pdf/physical_fitness_en.pdf

Search page - http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?action=search;advanced

Army.ca wiki pages - http://army.ca/wiki/index.php/Main_Page


Once again, welcome to Army.ca.


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## velveteen_knight (27 Sep 2006)

see people on message boards can reply to the question without completely digressing from the point and getting annoyed. (eg. cplcaldwell) thank you.


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## GAP (27 Sep 2006)

.


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## cplcaldwell (27 Sep 2006)

Sorry not sure I'm getting you. 

Did I do the digressing and getting annoyed or not?

Might just be your writing style or my thick head.


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## Teflon (27 Sep 2006)

velveteen_knight said:
			
		

> see people on message boards can reply to the question without completely digressing from the point and getting annoyed. (eg. cplcaldwell) thank you.



I don't believe my reply was digressed from the point and I'm far from annoyed,... more amused to tell the truth.

and,.. your welcome


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## GAP (27 Sep 2006)

I think he/she was complimenting cplcaldwell and flaming everyones else..


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## velveteen_knight (27 Sep 2006)

mainly george wallace... but yes, cplcaldwell has been the most helpfull....


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## Fishbone Jones (27 Sep 2006)

velveteen_knight,

Capitalization is one of the things addressed in the links I provided for your reading. Please take a breather and read them thoroughly. It will make things easier for everyone. Including yourself.

Filling in your profile would also help. Others would know where your coming from, ideologically, and it may prevent some of the friction.


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## Loachman (27 Sep 2006)

People join for a variety of reasons, and service to country is not necessarily high on the list of reasons for young people.

And even those who may be considered patriotic may not do well in this line of work.

You have exressed a curiosity. Do some research. Explore this forum, absorb some of what you find here, and then ask intelligent and informed questions. You'll find it a less harsh environment then.

The same is true within the military.

cplcaldwell's advice is well worth heeding. One can join a reserve unit and get a decent taste of the life without making a huge commitment. In return, one gets paid, experiences things that few others can, and expands one's horizons dramatically - but all of this is entirely dependent upon the effort that one is willing to put in.


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## wotan (27 Sep 2006)

Velveteen Knight,

  You have received some good duff gen, but you have asked several different questions, really.

  Your various posts have asked (and I'm paraphrasing here) whether someone should consider joining their nations armed forces if:

  a.  they aren't patriotic;

  b.  don't believe in the ethos of their nation's military; and/or

  c.  don't believe in the ethics of their military.

  As well, you described a situation of a person in a bad way (menial job, low pay, no advancement prospects) and queried if the military might be right for them.

  All good questions and perfectly fair to ask, but they are all separate matters.  I'll give you my two cents worth and you can credit it as you may.

  *Should a person join their nation's military if they aren't a patriot?*  There's no compelling reason why not, but what would be that person's motivation for joining?  After all, they are making a contract with their country that as a soldier they will receive training, a certain rate of pay and benefits and in exchange they will obey orders and, if necessary, lay down their life in the defence of their country.  Inherent in this is the requirement to kill.  If the individual in question isn't comfortably reconciled to these realities and isn't comfortable with the prospect of killing and/or dying, then they shouldn't sign up.  Patriotism doesn't factor into that reality, but it can motivate a person.

  *Should a person join their nation's military if they don't believe in that military's ethos?*  No.  The military ethos, in broad general terms and not specific to the CF, stresses mission success and the welfare of others before self.  It espouses excellence in the military crafts, including killing and standing firm against all odds.  If a person doesn't believe in these and similar things, they will not get along well in any organization that espouses them.

  *Should a person join their nation's military if they don't believe in the ethics of their military?*  Possibly.  If a person believes that their military behaves in an unethical manner, they could strive to change it from within.  However, they still assume the contract with their nation, including those obligations of killing and dying if necessary.  So, if they believe they can effect change best from within, sure, sign up.  If that person, however, does not want to risk having to kill or possibly die as the result of a perceived unethical military action, then they are best on the outside.  

  *Should a person join their nation's military if they are in a desperate situation?*  Possibly.  People that have survived desperate situations can often make very good soldiers.  Usually these successes are determined people, seeking to better themselves.  However, if a person is looking for an "easy ride", don't join the military.  That person will be gravely disappointed.

  The above is just my view on it and hopefully it has answered whatever your basic question is.  Best of luck.


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## Loachman (29 Sep 2006)

wotan said:
			
		

> good duff gen


Just a point - "duff" means "bad".

And, velveteen_knight, I'm wondering what it is about our ideals and ethics that you do not like.


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## Centurian1985 (29 Sep 2006)

Loachman said:
			
		

> Just a point - "duff" means "bad".



That was confusing me too! 'Duff' can mean numerous things...

- A stiff flour pudding boiled in a cloth bag or steamed.
- Decaying leaves and branches covering a forest floor.
- Fine coal; slack.
- a brand of skate shoes 
- a slang term for the bits left in the bottom of the bag after the booty has been consumed; crumbs 
- what novice golfers do, and they are sometimes called "duffers" 
- a fictional brand of beer featured in The Simpsons; also a real beer made in Australia 
- an annoying teeny-bopper singer trying to be the next Britney Spears
- "Up the duff" is apparently UK/Aus/NZ slang for being pregnant. 
- in science fiction terminology, DUFF means the Down Under Fan Fund (a fan fund to bring Australasian members of fandom to North America and vice versa)
- in social terms, DUFF can mean Designated Ugly Fat Friend (a less attractive friend brought to a party so you look better). 

There are three common Army uses for the word that I know of:
a) referring to the buttocks as in 'get off your duff', and
b) to indicate a falsehood, as in 'that's a load of duff', and
c) indicating a truth when preceded by 'no', as in 'no duff' (used to be a common radio and command term during exercises when emergencies happened)

Conclusion - Duff doesn't mean bad, it tends to refer more to a 'load of garbage'...

Enough of the language lesson hijack, on to the 'my 2 cents' on the subject of *patriotism*.  

Strictly speaking, a patriot is a person who loves and defends his or her country.  This is a positive connotation, and would include just about every Canadian soldier I ever worked with. (Oh, and me too!).  Many soldiers I worked with from other countries were patriotic to their home nations (the deluded fools - Canada rules!). 

However this is only a simple dictionary definition - there are also negative connotations to the term, which include fanaticism (believing that your country is always right no matter what your country does), ethnocentrism (believing that our values, ethics and morals are superior to those of other groups of people), and discrimination (putting up barriers against those who do not agree with our country's values, ethics, morals, and evident superiority).   

In the end I think patriotism is a great thing, a desired trait in every soldier. I like Wotan's list of possibilities so I'll use those as well:

*Should a person join their nation's military if they aren't a patriot?* No, I dont think they should, if they dont believe in the ethics morals and values of the country, of which the military is a small cross-section.  You dont *have * to be a patriot to join, but you should be patriotic if you intend to enjoy your career.   

*Should a person join their nation's military if they don't believe in that military's ethos?* No, I dont think they should. If they have an open mind, great, see what its like and maybe they will become a believer, but if they object to the job, why join?  Its the same for any other organization - if they dont agree with the ideas the organization represents they will end up in conflict with those who do.  

*Should a person join their nation's military if they don't believe in the ethics of their military?*  Same as above.  I will point out however, that many people out there have a completely incorrect belief of what the ethics of our military are.  Not only incorrect, but at times fanatically incorrect to the point of being brainwashed by other sources of information.  

* Should a person join their nation's military if they are in a desperate situation?*  This is confusing...do you mean financially, being homeless, or by some other means, like avoiding going to jail?  I know of a couple of guys who joined to avoid going to jail, and I would consider them to be patriots.  Unless you have a specific situation in mind, this would have to be answered on a case-by-case basis.


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## Hockeycaper (29 Sep 2006)

Yeah.. what he said^^^^^^ I'm just not that good of a " Word smith"
5
4
3
2
1
Just counting the seconds until someone_ rips _ me for being a dumb grunt.


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## wotan (29 Sep 2006)

Loachman said:
			
		

> Just a point - "duff" means "bad".



"Duff gen" is just a slang term that means, roughly, "info", usually opinion or rumour.  Duff gen can be "good" as in relatively true or accurate or "bad" as in not so true or accurate.  Where did the term come from?  I have no idea, it's been around a lot longer than I have.

I've never heard of a definition of the word "duff", but sure, there could be one, but I think it depends more on context.  "No Duff" = "no bad", doesn't make much sense, to me.  "No duff" = "real deal, non-exercise situation" seems to fit better, but,again, that's just me.

Anyway, it's slang, and with slang the same term can have different meanings in different regions, especially in a country as big as ours, so your definition is as apt to be as accurate as any.  Cheers.


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## Loachman (29 Sep 2006)

As far as I know, it's an old RAF term. I always heard or read it in air force-related conversations, books, etcetera.

"Gen" is information. It can either be "good gen", or "duff gen". I have never, until now, seen anybody say "good duff gen".

To confirm, I did a quick web search. There was no confirmed origin in any of the definitions that I came across, but they all pretty much backed up mine.

"Duff" gen is not to be trusted, and "Good duff" gen is a contradiction.


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## razorguns (29 Sep 2006)

velveteen_knight said:
			
		

> do you feel that it is important to be a patriot to serve in the armed forces, or is it even necessary?



while you're at home - it's called patriotic.  When you're deployed - it's called, saving your ass, and getting home in one piece.  Then figure out if what u did really did anthing for your country.  

r


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## orange.paint (30 Sep 2006)

velveteen_knight said:
			
		

> alright heres a situation:
> 
> a young man f***s up badly and drops out of high school, gets kicked out of his house and is forces to work dangerous temp jobs at half pay, so that he can continue.... well, living. after four years of monatunous (spelling?) hard labour he gets the idea in his head that he might like to join the armed forces, but is undecided with the ethics of his military... now would it be wrong for him to join, just for the work?



I've been poor....I couldnt afford internet.Why dont you save the 29.95 a month plus electricity if your that hard up?


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## Centurian1985 (30 Sep 2006)

099* said:
			
		

> I've been poor....I couldnt afford internet.Why dont you save the 29.95 a month plus electricity if your that hard up?



 :rofl:

Kids today cant live without the 'basics'; computer, coke and junk food.  I need a crowbar to get my kid away from his keyboard.


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## orange.paint (30 Sep 2006)

lol. ;D
I guess being real poor is having dial up :


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## FastEddy (30 Sep 2006)

velveteen_knight said:
			
		

> well yeah, why not?.. sure as hell beats line work, grocery stores, farming, and throwing garbage.




There is the possibility that Life or Society has dealt you a less than favourable hand.

And not withstanding the fact, that the Military has been the Salvation and Principal Influence in turning ones life around in a great many cases.

If I were to hazered a guess, with regard to your success in the Military. I would place the odds at Zero to none.

Why so ?, by your own statements, you have listed all the reasons why you shouldn't even be considering Enlistment. Which I feel are Admmissions of facts rather than generalities.


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## Edward Campbell (1 Oct 2006)

Loachman said:
			
		

> As far as I know, it's an old RAF term. I always heard or read it in air force-related conversations, books, etcetera.
> 
> "Gen" is information. It can either be "good gen", or "duff gen". I have never, until now, seen anybody say "good duff gen".
> 
> ...



Do we still have the term NODUF for use in message traffic to indicate: "this message is *real* rather than 'exercise' traffic?

The origin of that term is, indeed, _duff gen_ from the air force in the really big war.


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## Sig_Des (1 Oct 2006)

Edward Campbell said:
			
		

> Do we still have the term NODUF for use in message traffic to indicate: "this message is *real* rather than 'exercise' traffic?
> 
> The origin of that term is, indeed, _duff gen_ from the air force in the really big war.



We do still use NO DUFF. When you hear it over the air as an operator, it's go time. Gets a better reaction than a FLASH.


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## Menace2Auth0rity (3 Oct 2006)

Velveteen......

I'm going to tell you a story here.....
7 years ago, a young man dropped out of highschool at 17 years old. He got on welfare, got his own apartment, and started living the "good life".....well.....so he thought. He spent the next 2 1/2 years drinking almost daily, and smoking marijuana almost hourly. During those 2 1/2 years, he learned how to play nintendo, funnel beer, and make home made water bongs. Then one day, after a night of hard partying, his landlord handed him an eviction notice.....he procrastinated, and came home one day to find the locks had been changed, and he now had nothing other than the clothes on his back. His welfare check was spent on booze and pot, and he was broke and now homeless. He walked into his parent's house, and as soon as he stepped in the door, he spewed the words "Dad, I'm 19 years old, and I'm completely lost.". His dad grabbed the phone book, and dialed up the local recruiting office. When the recruiting officer answered the phone, the father said "My son's 19 years old, and he just walked in the door and said "Dad, I'm lost"." That was 4 1/2 years ago. 
That young man just recently returned from a 6mth tour in Afghanistan. He came home to a wife, a daughter, and another child on the way. He's about to buy a house, has a good vehicle, and is looking to join the Provincial Police as soon as he gets finished with the military in a few months. That young man, who was in complete shambles, knew NOTHING about patriotism, OR our military or why and how the army does things the way they do. He left town 4 1/2 years ago, as some young punk kid who was going no where.....today, his is a responsible, honorable, caring, patriotic, grown man...........who I might add.......I am PROUD to call my brother......

By the way, that is a true story......
You make the decision.....is it worth it for you to join the armed forces? Do you really disagree with the military's ways? Or do you just not REALLY know why they do things the way they do.....Where is YOUR life going? Would 3 years of discipline and great physical fitness really hurt you?

Good Luck with whatever you choose to persue...


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## Centurian1985 (3 Oct 2006)

Menace2Auth0rity said:
			
		

> Velveteen......  I'm going to tell you a story here.....
> 
> You make the decision.....is it worth it for you to join the armed forces? Do you really disagree with the military's ways? Or do you just not REALLY know why they do things the way they do.....Where is YOUR life going? Would 3 years of discipline and great physical fitness really hurt you?  Good Luck with whatever you choose to persue...



Good example.  According to the older guys I worked with who joined in the 1960's and 1970's, a lot of members had the same story.  Bad choices, broken homes, and/or lack of family were common factors.  It was also true for guys I knew who entered in the 1980's.  Apparently its still true today.


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## keaner (3 Oct 2006)

Velveteen, there are a lot worse things you can do than serve your country. The military will change your life and make you understand that many of your problems are rather insignificant in the big picture. So, step up. Knock the chip off your shoulder and sign on the line.


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## subfighter (6 Oct 2006)

Men2Auth's post was quite indicative of the potential involved.  Many may tell you that you should stay away from the military without some altruistic value for the forces and its ideals.  I disagree with this perspective.  I began as a selfish and immature dude in the army res and am now at the sharpest end of the dagger.  When I started, those around me knew everything about politics and our international involvement in certain missions; yet they knew nothing.  Now, those around me know little about the political purpose of our operations, but they understand the impact and trust in the authorities that direct our operations.  Most of all, they love and trust their brothers in arms.  You don't have to commit to the ideology, but you must commit yourself to those around you - this may include their reasons for being there as well.. if they are politically motivated ...well, start believin'.


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