# CF Recruiting



## army

Posted by *"John Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Fri, 16 Mar 2001 22:02:41 -0500*
Good evening all...
Do try to catch the front end of th CBC‘s "National" tonight...they are 
onto the Recruiting crisis and the pc problems of Women, Minorities and 
aboriginals, and the number crunchers are in high gear...
John
Good evening all...
Do try to catch the front end of th 
CBC‘s
"National" tonight...they are onto the Recruiting crisis and the pc 
problems of
Women, Minorities and aboriginals, and the number crunchers are in high
gear...
John
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## army

Posted by *"Jay Digital" <todesengel@home.com>* on *Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:06:31 -0500*
I‘m a little worried this recruiting bonanza will lead to a lower 
quality of recruits and training. Hopefully the CF will be able to main 
it‘s high standards while still meeting their recruiting requirements.
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: John Gow
  To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
  Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 10:02 PM
  Subject: CF Recruiting
  Good evening all...
  Do try to catch the front end of th CBC‘s "National" tonight...they 
are onto the Recruiting crisis and the pc problems of Women, Minorities 
and aboriginals, and the number crunchers are in high gear...
  John
I‘m a little worried 
this
recruiting bonanza will lead to a lower quality of recruits and 
training.
Hopefully the CF will be able to main it‘s high standards while still 
meeting
their recruiting requirements.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From:
  John Gow 
  To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca 
  Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 
10:02
  PM
  Subject: CF Recruiting

  Good evening all...

  Do try to catch the front end of th 
CBC‘s
  "National" tonight...they are onto the Recruiting crisis and the pc 
problems
  of Women, Minorities and aboriginals, and the number crunchers are in 
high
  gear...

  John
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Sun, 18 Mar 2001 01:51:14 -0000*
See also the article in Saturday‘s *Globe and Mail* making more or less the 
same point as John‘s CBC segment: Recruiting from non-traditional groups 
women, aboriginals, etc. apparently *isn‘t* working all that well, 
resulting in lowered standards - precisely Jay‘s point - and apparently 
ridiculously high attrition rates, too.
Maybe the CF should make the same concession Communist regimes around the 
world have had to make over the past 10 years, or so, and finally admit that 
people respond to "economic incentives". In other words, if they want 
more/better recruits, they‘re simply going to have to PAY MORE!
Whadday‘all think? Any chance at all the brainiacs at DND and their 
political masters will ever figure that one out??? BIG sigh...
- Joan
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Jay Digital" 
Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
To: 
Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:06:31 -0500
I‘m a little worried this recruiting bonanza will lead to a lower quality of 
recruits and training. Hopefully the CF will be able to main it‘s high 
standards while still meeting their recruiting requirements.
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: John Gow
   To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
   Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 10:02 PM
   Subject: CF Recruiting
   Good evening all...
   Do try to catch the front end of th CBC‘s "National" tonight...they are 
onto the Recruiting crisis and the pc problems of Women, Minorities and 
aboriginals, and the number crunchers are in high gear...
   John
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
--------------------------------------------------------
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message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Sun, 18 Mar 2001 01:59:58 -0000*
See also the article in Saturday‘s *Globe and Mail*, which basically echoes 
the point of John‘s CBC segment: Apparently recruiting from 
"non-traditional" groups - women, aboriginals, etc. - is both producing 
lower standards - Jay‘s point exactly - and resulting in ridiculously high 
attrition rates, too.
I wonder when DND is going to getting around to making the same concession 
Communist regimes around the globe have had to make over the past decade, or 
so? That is, I wonder when they‘re going to catch on to the fact that 
"people respond to economic incentives", and that if they want more/better 
recruits, they‘re going to have to PAY MORE!
Whadday‘all think? Any chance at all the brainiacs at DND and their 
political masters, too will ever grasp the most basic fact taught in 
Economics 101???
BIG sigh...
- Joan
PS - Are there any native Canadians on the list? If so, their input would be 
welcome, since I think we‘ve probably already flogged the
"woman thing" Come on down, Art Hanger! to death...
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Jay Digital" 
Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
To: 
Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:06:31 -0500
I‘m a little worried this recruiting bonanza will lead to a lower quality of 
recruits and training. Hopefully the CF will be able to main it‘s high 
standards while still meeting their recruiting requirements.
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: John Gow
   To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
   Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 10:02 PM
   Subject: CF Recruiting
   Good evening all...
   Do try to catch the front end of th CBC‘s "National" tonight...they are 
onto the Recruiting crisis and the pc problems of Women, Minorities and 
aboriginals, and the number crunchers are in high gear...
   John
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
--------------------------------------------------------
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message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Sun, 18 Mar 2001 02:19:06 -0000*
Oops. Sorry for the almost-duplicate post, there. Ghosts in the machine...
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Joan O. Arc" 
Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 01:59:58 -0000
See also the article in Saturday‘s *Globe and Mail*, which basically echoes
the point of John‘s CBC segment: Apparently recruiting from
"non-traditional" groups - women, aboriginals, etc. - is both producing
lower standards - Jay‘s point exactly - and resulting in ridiculously high
attrition rates, too.
I wonder when DND is going to getting around to making the same concession
Communist regimes around the globe have had to make over the past decade, or
so? That is, I wonder when they‘re going to catch on to the fact that
"people respond to economic incentives", and that if they want more/better
recruits, they‘re going to have to PAY MORE!
Whadday‘all think? Any chance at all the brainiacs at DND and their
political masters, too will ever grasp the most basic fact taught in
Economics 101???
BIG sigh...
- Joan
PS - Are there any native Canadians on the list? If so, their input would be
welcome, since I think we‘ve probably already flogged the
"woman thing" Come on down, Art Hanger! to death...
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Jay Digital" 
Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
To: 
Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:06:31 -0500
I‘m a little worried this recruiting bonanza will lead to a lower quality of
recruits and training. Hopefully the CF will be able to main it‘s high
standards while still meeting their recruiting requirements.
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: John Gow
   To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
   Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 10:02 PM
   Subject: CF Recruiting
   Good evening all...
   Do try to catch the front end of th CBC‘s "National" tonight...they are
onto the Recruiting crisis and the pc problems of Women, Minorities and
aboriginals, and the number crunchers are in high gear...
   John
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com>* on *Sat, 17 Mar 2001 19:22:06 -0700*
Actually, the pay right now is fairly good especially compared to
labourers/fast food places.
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: Joan O. Arc 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 6:51 PM
Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
> See also the article in Saturday‘s *Globe and Mail* making more or less
the
> same point as John‘s CBC segment: Recruiting from non-traditional groups
> women, aboriginals, etc. apparently *isn‘t* working all that well,
> resulting in lowered standards - precisely Jay‘s point - and apparently
> ridiculously high attrition rates, too.
>
> Maybe the CF should make the same concession Communist regimes around the
> world have had to make over the past 10 years, or so, and finally admit
that
> people respond to "economic incentives". In other words, if they want
> more/better recruits, they‘re simply going to have to PAY MORE!
>
> Whadday‘all think? Any chance at all the brainiacs at DND and their
> political masters will ever figure that one out??? BIG sigh...
>
> - Joan
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: "Jay Digital" 
> Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> To: 
> Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:06:31 -0500
>
> I‘m a little worried this recruiting bonanza will lead to a lower quality
of
> recruits and training. Hopefully the CF will be able to main it‘s high
> standards while still meeting their recruiting requirements.
>
>    ----- Original Message -----
>    From: John Gow
>    To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
>    Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 10:02 PM
>    Subject: CF Recruiting
>
>
>    Good evening all...
>
>    Do try to catch the front end of th CBC‘s "National" tonight...they are
> onto the Recruiting crisis and the pc problems of Women, Minorities and
> aboriginals, and the number crunchers are in high gear...
>
>    John
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army

Posted by *Derrick Forsythe <Derrick.Forsythe@gov.ab.ca>* on *Sat, 17 Mar 2001 19:28:46 -0700*
2Lt‘s make three grand a month in the summers - plus free room and board -
and two grand rebate on their tuition if they stick around - I was talking
with Col Yee about thsi this morning - we have to re-focus how we sell
ourselves - it‘s about the money -
> -----Original Message-----
> Fromonald Schepens [SMTP:a.schepens@home.com]
> Sent:Saturday, March 17, 2001 7:22 PM
> To:army-list@cdnarmy.ca
> Subject:Re: CF Recruiting
> 
> Actually, the pay right now is fairly good especially compared to
> labourers/fast food places.
> 
> Don
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joan O. Arc 
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 6:51 PM
> Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
> 
> 
> > See also the article in Saturday‘s *Globe and Mail* making more or less
> the
> > same point as John‘s CBC segment: Recruiting from non-traditional groups
> > women, aboriginals, etc. apparently *isn‘t* working all that well,
> > resulting in lowered standards - precisely Jay‘s point - and apparently
> > ridiculously high attrition rates, too.
> >
> > Maybe the CF should make the same concession Communist regimes around
> the
> > world have had to make over the past 10 years, or so, and finally admit
> that
> > people respond to "economic incentives". In other words, if they want
> > more/better recruits, they‘re simply going to have to PAY MORE!
> >
> > Whadday‘all think? Any chance at all the brainiacs at DND and their
> > political masters will ever figure that one out??? BIG sigh...
> >
> > - Joan
> >
> >
> > ----Original Message Follows----
> > From: "Jay Digital" 
> > Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > To: 
> > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
> > Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:06:31 -0500
> >
> > I‘m a little worried this recruiting bonanza will lead to a lower
> quality
> of
> > recruits and training. Hopefully the CF will be able to main it‘s high
> > standards while still meeting their recruiting requirements.
> >
> >    ----- Original Message -----
> >    From: John Gow
> >    To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> >    Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 10:02 PM
> >    Subject: CF Recruiting
> >
> >
> >    Good evening all...
> >
> >    Do try to catch the front end of th CBC‘s "National" tonight...they
> are
> > onto the Recruiting crisis and the pc problems of Women, Minorities and
> > aboriginals, and the number crunchers are in high gear...
> >
> >    John
> >
> >
> _________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
>  http://www.hotmail.com. 
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
> >
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com>* on *Sat, 17 Mar 2001 19:41:05 -0700*
The equivalent of $36K a year while you are a University Student pro rated
by the time you work isn‘t bad.
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: Derrick Forsythe 
To: ‘army-list@cdnarmy.ca‘ 
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 7:28 PM
Subject: RE: CF Recruiting
> 2Lt‘s make three grand a month in the summers - plus free room and board -
> and two grand rebate on their tuition if they stick around - I was talking
> with Col Yee about thsi this morning - we have to re-focus how we sell
> ourselves - it‘s about the money -
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Donald Schepens [SMTP:a.schepens@home.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 7:22 PM
> > To: army-list@cdnarmy.ca
> > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
> >
> > Actually, the pay right now is fairly good especially compared to
> > labourers/fast food places.
> >
> > Don
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Joan O. Arc 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 6:51 PM
> > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
> >
> >
> > > See also the article in Saturday‘s *Globe and Mail* making more or
less
> > the
> > > same point as John‘s CBC segment: Recruiting from non-traditional
groups
> > > women, aboriginals, etc. apparently *isn‘t* working all that well,
> > > resulting in lowered standards - precisely Jay‘s point - and
apparently
> > > ridiculously high attrition rates, too.
> > >
> > > Maybe the CF should make the same concession Communist regimes around
> > the
> > > world have had to make over the past 10 years, or so, and finally
admit
> > that
> > > people respond to "economic incentives". In other words, if they want
> > > more/better recruits, they‘re simply going to have to PAY MORE!
> > >
> > > Whadday‘all think? Any chance at all the brainiacs at DND and their
> > > political masters will ever figure that one out??? BIG sigh...
> > >
> > > - Joan
> > >
> > >
> > > ----Original Message Follows----
> > > From: "Jay Digital" 
> > > Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > > To: 
> > > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
> > > Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:06:31 -0500
> > >
> > > I‘m a little worried this recruiting bonanza will lead to a lower
> > quality
> > of
> > > recruits and training. Hopefully the CF will be able to main it‘s high
> > > standards while still meeting their recruiting requirements.
> > >
> > >    ----- Original Message -----
> > >    From: John Gow
> > >    To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > >    Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 10:02 PM
> > >    Subject: CF Recruiting
> > >
> > >
> > >    Good evening all...
> > >
> > >    Do try to catch the front end of th CBC‘s "National" tonight...they
> > are
> > > onto the Recruiting crisis and the pc problems of Women, Minorities
and
> > > aboriginals, and the number crunchers are in high gear...
> > >
> > >    John
> > >
> > >
> >
_________________________________________________________________________
> > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> >  http://www.hotmail.com. 
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > message body.
> > >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Sun, 18 Mar 2001 03:01:53 -0000*
Sounds good to me! Where do I sign up? : - The physical training alone 
would probably do me in, I think!
But, then, why all the stories in the press about soldiers Perhaps regular 
forces, not reservists? Is that the difference? who are making $16-$18K per 
year or whatever, sending their families to food banks, etc., etc.?
And even if the press stories are misleading/wrong, perhaps it‘s this 
*perception* that‘s seemingly causing people to stay away in droves?
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Donald Schepens" 
Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
To: 
Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 19:41:05 -0700
The equivalent of $36K a year while you are a University Student pro rated
by the time you work isn‘t bad.
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: Derrick Forsythe 
To: ‘army-list@cdnarmy.ca‘ 
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 7:28 PM
Subject: RE: CF Recruiting
 > 2Lt‘s make three grand a month in the summers - plus free room and board 
-
 > and two grand rebate on their tuition if they stick around - I was 
talking
 > with Col Yee about thsi this morning - we have to re-focus how we sell
 > ourselves - it‘s about the money -
 >
 > > -----Original Message-----
 > > From: Donald Schepens [SMTP:a.schepens@home.com]
 > > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 7:22 PM
 > > To: army-list@cdnarmy.ca
 > > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
 > >
 > > Actually, the pay right now is fairly good especially compared to
 > > labourers/fast food places.
 > >
 > > Don
 > > ----- Original Message -----
 > > From: Joan O. Arc 
 > > To: 
 > > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 6:51 PM
 > > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
 > >
 > >
 > > > See also the article in Saturday‘s *Globe and Mail* making more or
less
 > > the
 > > > same point as John‘s CBC segment: Recruiting from non-traditional
groups
 > > > women, aboriginals, etc. apparently *isn‘t* working all that well,
 > > > resulting in lowered standards - precisely Jay‘s point - and
apparently
 > > > ridiculously high attrition rates, too.
 > > >
 > > > Maybe the CF should make the same concession Communist regimes around
 > > the
 > > > world have had to make over the past 10 years, or so, and finally
admit
 > > that
 > > > people respond to "economic incentives". In other words, if they want
 > > > more/better recruits, they‘re simply going to have to PAY MORE!
 > > >
 > > > Whadday‘all think? Any chance at all the brainiacs at DND and their
 > > > political masters will ever figure that one out??? BIG sigh...
 > > >
 > > > - Joan
 > > >
 > > >
 > > > ----Original Message Follows----
 > > > From: "Jay Digital" 
 > > > Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
 > > > To: 
 > > > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
 > > > Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:06:31 -0500
 > > >
 > > > I‘m a little worried this recruiting bonanza will lead to a lower
 > > quality
 > > of
 > > > recruits and training. Hopefully the CF will be able to main it‘s 
high
 > > > standards while still meeting their recruiting requirements.
 > > >
 > > >    ----- Original Message -----
 > > >    From: John Gow
 > > >    To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
 > > >    Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 10:02 PM
 > > >    Subject: CF Recruiting
 > > >
 > > >
 > > >    Good evening all...
 > > >
 > > >    Do try to catch the front end of th CBC‘s "National" 
tonight...they
 > > are
 > > > onto the Recruiting crisis and the pc problems of Women, Minorities
and
 > > > aboriginals, and the number crunchers are in high gear...
 > > >
 > > >    John
 > > >
 > > >
 > >
_________________________________________________________________________
 > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
 > >  http://www.hotmail.com. 
 > > >
 > > > --------------------------------------------------------
 > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 > > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
 > > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
 > > > message body.
 > > >
 > >
 > > --------------------------------------------------------
 > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
 > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
 > > message body.
 > --------------------------------------------------------
 > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
 > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
 > message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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_________________________________________________________________________
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Jay Digital" <todesengel@home.com>* on *Sat, 17 Mar 2001 22:04:33 -0500*
I must say from my own experiences that women and minorities aren‘t unfairly
treated in the CF. I know this statement will draw fire but it has been my
experience that the female recruits were held to lower standards and not
subjected to the same punishments as the male recruits. The descrepancy was
particularly evident when comparying platoons with female recruits to ones
that had no females. In the same vein, I have never experienced any sort of
racial bigotry in my experience with the CF. Admittedly, we only had one
black recruit in my platoon but he was never treated any differently than
anybody else. If anyone had any racial prejudices towards him they certainly
didn‘t make it evident.
The CF is one of the most progressive militaries in the world when it comes
to the roles of men and women. In many countries women are completely
forbidden from the combat arms where Canada has every trade and position
open to both sexes. I think when you‘re dealing with something as important
as a nation‘s defense you shouldn‘t be worrying about something like racial
and sex quotas. The best candidate for the job should be the one who gets
it. When lives are on the line, racial equity is going to be of little
comfort to someone with a mortal wound that could have been prevented. I‘m
not suggesting that a minority couldn‘t do just as good or a better job than
a white male, but I do think we should ignore this "racist" nonsense and
focus on getting the best recruits.
I think you also have to consider the people applying to the CF. The CF can
target their ads to minorities all they want but the majority of people
applying to the ranks will indoubtedly be white males. You can‘t blame the
CF for this. Since we have such a small military to begin with we need to
focus on quality of the soldier, not colour.
Feel free to fireback but I stand by my opinion. I am not a racist, sexest,
or whatever else you want to call me. I am simply a citizen of this great
country who believes that the criteria for a job should be the skills of the
applicant, not the skin colour, sex, or religion.
Jay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joan O. Arc" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
> See also the article in Saturday‘s *Globe and Mail* making more or less
the
> same point as John‘s CBC segment: Recruiting from non-traditional groups
> women, aboriginals, etc. apparently *isn‘t* working all that well,
> resulting in lowered standards - precisely Jay‘s point - and apparently
> ridiculously high attrition rates, too.
>
> Maybe the CF should make the same concession Communist regimes around the
> world have had to make over the past 10 years, or so, and finally admit
that
> people respond to "economic incentives". In other words, if they want
> more/better recruits, they‘re simply going to have to PAY MORE!
>
> Whadday‘all think? Any chance at all the brainiacs at DND and their
> political masters will ever figure that one out??? BIG sigh...
>
> - Joan
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: "Jay Digital" 
> Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> To: 
> Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:06:31 -0500
>
> I‘m a little worried this recruiting bonanza will lead to a lower quality
of
> recruits and training. Hopefully the CF will be able to main it‘s high
> standards while still meeting their recruiting requirements.
>
>    ----- Original Message -----
>    From: John Gow
>    To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
>    Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 10:02 PM
>    Subject: CF Recruiting
>
>
>    Good evening all...
>
>    Do try to catch the front end of th CBC‘s "National" tonight...they are
> onto the Recruiting crisis and the pc problems of Women, Minorities and
> aboriginals, and the number crunchers are in high gear...
>
>    John
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"Jay Digital" <todesengel@home.com>* on *Sat, 17 Mar 2001 22:12:16 -0500*
All this stuff about a lack of money seems rather unreasonable to me. Many
new recruits I know are rolling in cash and can‘t spend it fast enough. I
imagine when you have a family to take care of your expenses will tend to
catch up with you but the wages aren‘t anywhere near unreasonable.
You can find the pay tables on the DND website somewhere. Rumour is the CF
is getting another raise in April.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joan O. Arc" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
> Sounds good to me! Where do I sign up? : - The physical training alone
> would probably do me in, I think!
>
> But, then, why all the stories in the press about soldiers Perhaps
regular
> forces, not reservists? Is that the difference? who are making $16-$18K
per
> year or whatever, sending their families to food banks, etc., etc.?
>
> And even if the press stories are misleading/wrong, perhaps it‘s this
> *perception* that‘s seemingly causing people to stay away in droves?
>
>
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: "Donald Schepens" 
> Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> To: 
> Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 19:41:05 -0700
>
> The equivalent of $36K a year while you are a University Student pro
rated
> by the time you work isn‘t bad.
>
> Don
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Derrick Forsythe 
> To: ‘army-list@cdnarmy.ca‘ 
> Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 7:28 PM
> Subject: RE: CF Recruiting
>
>
>  > 2Lt‘s make three grand a month in the summers - plus free room and
board
> -
>  > and two grand rebate on their tuition if they stick around - I was
> talking
>  > with Col Yee about thsi this morning - we have to re-focus how we sell
>  > ourselves - it‘s about the money -
>  >
>  > > -----Original Message-----
>  > > From: Donald Schepens [SMTP:a.schepens@home.com]
>  > > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 7:22 PM
>  > > To: army-list@cdnarmy.ca
>  > > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
>  > >
>  > > Actually, the pay right now is fairly good especially compared to
>  > > labourers/fast food places.
>  > >
>  > > Don
>  > > ----- Original Message -----
>  > > From: Joan O. Arc 
>  > > To: 
>  > > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 6:51 PM
>  > > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > > See also the article in Saturday‘s *Globe and Mail* making more or
> less
>  > > the
>  > > > same point as John‘s CBC segment: Recruiting from non-traditional
> groups
>  > > > women, aboriginals, etc. apparently *isn‘t* working all that
well,
>  > > > resulting in lowered standards - precisely Jay‘s point - and
> apparently
>  > > > ridiculously high attrition rates, too.
>  > > >
>  > > > Maybe the CF should make the same concession Communist regimes
around
>  > > the
>  > > > world have had to make over the past 10 years, or so, and finally
> admit
>  > > that
>  > > > people respond to "economic incentives". In other words, if they
want
>  > > > more/better recruits, they‘re simply going to have to PAY MORE!
>  > > >
>  > > > Whadday‘all think? Any chance at all the brainiacs at DND and
their
>  > > > political masters will ever figure that one out??? BIG sigh...
>  > > >
>  > > > - Joan
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > > ----Original Message Follows----
>  > > > From: "Jay Digital" 
>  > > > Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
>  > > > To: 
>  > > > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
>  > > > Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:06:31 -0500
>  > > >
>  > > > I‘m a little worried this recruiting bonanza will lead to a lower
>  > > quality
>  > > of
>  > > > recruits and training. Hopefully the CF will be able to main it‘s
> high
>  > > > standards while still meeting their recruiting requirements.
>  > > >
>  > > >    ----- Original Message -----
>  > > >    From: John Gow
>  > > >    To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
>  > > >    Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 10:02 PM
>  > > >    Subject: CF Recruiting
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > >    Good evening all...
>  > > >
>  > > >    Do try to catch the front end of th CBC‘s "National"
> tonight...they
>  > > are
>  > > > onto the Recruiting crisis and the pc problems of Women, Minorities
> and
>  > > > aboriginals, and the number crunchers are in high gear...
>  > > >
>  > > >    John
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > >
> _________________________________________________________________________
>  > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
>  > >  http://www.hotmail.com. 
>  > > >
>  > > > --------------------------------------------------------
>  > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>  > > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
>  > > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
>  > > > message body.
>  > > >
>  > >
>  > > --------------------------------------------------------
>  > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>  > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
>  > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
>  > > message body.
>  > --------------------------------------------------------
>  > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>  > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
>  > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
>  > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com>* on *Sat, 17 Mar 2001 20:12:35 -0700*
I‘m not sure what the pay rates are for regular force privates someone had
posted the website with the pay rates in a while ago.  However, I‘m sure
that they are higher than this.
----- Original Message -----
From: Joan O. Arc 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 8:01 PM
Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
> Sounds good to me! Where do I sign up? : - The physical training alone
> would probably do me in, I think!
>
> But, then, why all the stories in the press about soldiers Perhaps
regular
> forces, not reservists? Is that the difference? who are making $16-$18K
per
> year or whatever, sending their families to food banks, etc., etc.?
>
> And even if the press stories are misleading/wrong, perhaps it‘s this
> *perception* that‘s seemingly causing people to stay away in droves?
>
>
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: "Donald Schepens" 
> Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> To: 
> Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 19:41:05 -0700
>
> The equivalent of $36K a year while you are a University Student pro
rated
> by the time you work isn‘t bad.
>
> Don
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Derrick Forsythe 
> To: ‘army-list@cdnarmy.ca‘ 
> Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 7:28 PM
> Subject: RE: CF Recruiting
>
>
>  > 2Lt‘s make three grand a month in the summers - plus free room and
board
> -
>  > and two grand rebate on their tuition if they stick around - I was
> talking
>  > with Col Yee about thsi this morning - we have to re-focus how we sell
>  > ourselves - it‘s about the money -
>  >
>  > > -----Original Message-----
>  > > From: Donald Schepens [SMTP:a.schepens@home.com]
>  > > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 7:22 PM
>  > > To: army-list@cdnarmy.ca
>  > > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
>  > >
>  > > Actually, the pay right now is fairly good especially compared to
>  > > labourers/fast food places.
>  > >
>  > > Don
>  > > ----- Original Message -----
>  > > From: Joan O. Arc 
>  > > To: 
>  > > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 6:51 PM
>  > > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > > See also the article in Saturday‘s *Globe and Mail* making more or
> less
>  > > the
>  > > > same point as John‘s CBC segment: Recruiting from non-traditional
> groups
>  > > > women, aboriginals, etc. apparently *isn‘t* working all that
well,
>  > > > resulting in lowered standards - precisely Jay‘s point - and
> apparently
>  > > > ridiculously high attrition rates, too.
>  > > >
>  > > > Maybe the CF should make the same concession Communist regimes
around
>  > > the
>  > > > world have had to make over the past 10 years, or so, and finally
> admit
>  > > that
>  > > > people respond to "economic incentives". In other words, if they
want
>  > > > more/better recruits, they‘re simply going to have to PAY MORE!
>  > > >
>  > > > Whadday‘all think? Any chance at all the brainiacs at DND and
their
>  > > > political masters will ever figure that one out??? BIG sigh...
>  > > >
>  > > > - Joan
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > > ----Original Message Follows----
>  > > > From: "Jay Digital" 
>  > > > Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
>  > > > To: 
>  > > > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
>  > > > Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:06:31 -0500
>  > > >
>  > > > I‘m a little worried this recruiting bonanza will lead to a lower
>  > > quality
>  > > of
>  > > > recruits and training. Hopefully the CF will be able to main it‘s
> high
>  > > > standards while still meeting their recruiting requirements.
>  > > >
>  > > >    ----- Original Message -----
>  > > >    From: John Gow
>  > > >    To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
>  > > >    Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 10:02 PM
>  > > >    Subject: CF Recruiting
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > >    Good evening all...
>  > > >
>  > > >    Do try to catch the front end of th CBC‘s "National"
> tonight...they
>  > > are
>  > > > onto the Recruiting crisis and the pc problems of Women, Minorities
> and
>  > > > aboriginals, and the number crunchers are in high gear...
>  > > >
>  > > >    John
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > >
> _________________________________________________________________________
>  > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
>  > >  http://www.hotmail.com. 
>  > > >
>  > > > --------------------------------------------------------
>  > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>  > > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
>  > > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
>  > > > message body.
>  > > >
>  > >
>  > > --------------------------------------------------------
>  > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>  > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
>  > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
>  > > message body.
>  > --------------------------------------------------------
>  > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>  > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
>  > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
>  > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Sun, 18 Mar 2001 04:48:20 -0000*
Jay,
I agree with you. In fact, "the best candidate for the job" is a rule that I 
think should be almost universally applied, in every field, including, of 
course, the CF.
If it were, then - with the exception of lines of work such as the CF, where 
there are in my opinion, anyway bona fide occupational requirements that 
make it almost impossible for women to measure up - you would see more women 
in top jobs than you do today!
Cheers,
Joan
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Jay Digital" 
Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
To: 
Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 22:04:33 -0500
I must say from my own experiences that women and minorities aren‘t unfairly
treated in the CF. I know this statement will draw fire but it has been my
experience that the female recruits were held to lower standards and not
subjected to the same punishments as the male recruits. The descrepancy was
particularly evident when comparying platoons with female recruits to ones
that had no females. In the same vein, I have never experienced any sort of
racial bigotry in my experience with the CF. Admittedly, we only had one
black recruit in my platoon but he was never treated any differently than
anybody else. If anyone had any racial prejudices towards him they certainly
didn‘t make it evident.
The CF is one of the most progressive militaries in the world when it comes
to the roles of men and women. In many countries women are completely
forbidden from the combat arms where Canada has every trade and position
open to both sexes. I think when you‘re dealing with something as important
as a nation‘s defense you shouldn‘t be worrying about something like racial
and sex quotas. The best candidate for the job should be the one who gets
it. When lives are on the line, racial equity is going to be of little
comfort to someone with a mortal wound that could have been prevented. I‘m
not suggesting that a minority couldn‘t do just as good or a better job than
a white male, but I do think we should ignore this "racist" nonsense and
focus on getting the best recruits.
I think you also have to consider the people applying to the CF. The CF can
target their ads to minorities all they want but the majority of people
applying to the ranks will indoubtedly be white males. You can‘t blame the
CF for this. Since we have such a small military to begin with we need to
focus on quality of the soldier, not colour.
Feel free to fireback but I stand by my opinion. I am not a racist, sexest,
or whatever else you want to call me. I am simply a citizen of this great
country who believes that the criteria for a job should be the skills of the
applicant, not the skin colour, sex, or religion.
Jay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joan O. Arc" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
 > See also the article in Saturday‘s *Globe and Mail* making more or less
the
 > same point as John‘s CBC segment: Recruiting from non-traditional groups
 > women, aboriginals, etc. apparently *isn‘t* working all that well,
 > resulting in lowered standards - precisely Jay‘s point - and apparently
 > ridiculously high attrition rates, too.
 >
 > Maybe the CF should make the same concession Communist regimes around the
 > world have had to make over the past 10 years, or so, and finally admit
that
 > people respond to "economic incentives". In other words, if they want
 > more/better recruits, they‘re simply going to have to PAY MORE!
 >
 > Whadday‘all think? Any chance at all the brainiacs at DND and their
 > political masters will ever figure that one out??? BIG sigh...
 >
 > - Joan
 >
 >
 > ----Original Message Follows----
 > From: "Jay Digital" 
 > Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
 > To: 
 > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
 > Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:06:31 -0500
 >
 > I‘m a little worried this recruiting bonanza will lead to a lower quality
of
 > recruits and training. Hopefully the CF will be able to main it‘s high
 > standards while still meeting their recruiting requirements.
 >
 >    ----- Original Message -----
 >    From: John Gow
 >    To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
 >    Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 10:02 PM
 >    Subject: CF Recruiting
 >
 >
 >    Good evening all...
 >
 >    Do try to catch the front end of th CBC‘s "National" tonight...they 
are
 > onto the Recruiting crisis and the pc problems of Women, Minorities and
 > aboriginals, and the number crunchers are in high gear...
 >
 >    John
 >
 > _________________________________________________________________________
 > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
 >
 > --------------------------------------------------------
 > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
 > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
 > message body.
 >
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Sun, 18 Mar 2001 04:50:42 -0000*
PS - To prove my point, I should perhaps that add that there have been a few 
occasion in my own career where I have found myself in the position of 
looking some swaggering - but not very competent - fellow in the eye and 
saying, "I don‘t want special treatment. I just want the chance to kick your 
a**." The CF are, however, a different story, and, again, I agree with 
you...
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Jay Digital" 
Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
To: 
Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 22:04:33 -0500
I must say from my own experiences that women and minorities aren‘t unfairly
treated in the CF. I know this statement will draw fire but it has been my
experience that the female recruits were held to lower standards and not
subjected to the same punishments as the male recruits. The descrepancy was
particularly evident when comparying platoons with female recruits to ones
that had no females. In the same vein, I have never experienced any sort of
racial bigotry in my experience with the CF. Admittedly, we only had one
black recruit in my platoon but he was never treated any differently than
anybody else. If anyone had any racial prejudices towards him they certainly
didn‘t make it evident.
The CF is one of the most progressive militaries in the world when it comes
to the roles of men and women. In many countries women are completely
forbidden from the combat arms where Canada has every trade and position
open to both sexes. I think when you‘re dealing with something as important
as a nation‘s defense you shouldn‘t be worrying about something like racial
and sex quotas. The best candidate for the job should be the one who gets
it. When lives are on the line, racial equity is going to be of little
comfort to someone with a mortal wound that could have been prevented. I‘m
not suggesting that a minority couldn‘t do just as good or a better job than
a white male, but I do think we should ignore this "racist" nonsense and
focus on getting the best recruits.
I think you also have to consider the people applying to the CF. The CF can
target their ads to minorities all they want but the majority of people
applying to the ranks will indoubtedly be white males. You can‘t blame the
CF for this. Since we have such a small military to begin with we need to
focus on quality of the soldier, not colour.
Feel free to fireback but I stand by my opinion. I am not a racist, sexest,
or whatever else you want to call me. I am simply a citizen of this great
country who believes that the criteria for a job should be the skills of the
applicant, not the skin colour, sex, or religion.
Jay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joan O. Arc" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
 > See also the article in Saturday‘s *Globe and Mail* making more or less
the
 > same point as John‘s CBC segment: Recruiting from non-traditional groups
 > women, aboriginals, etc. apparently *isn‘t* working all that well,
 > resulting in lowered standards - precisely Jay‘s point - and apparently
 > ridiculously high attrition rates, too.
 >
 > Maybe the CF should make the same concession Communist regimes around the
 > world have had to make over the past 10 years, or so, and finally admit
that
 > people respond to "economic incentives". In other words, if they want
 > more/better recruits, they‘re simply going to have to PAY MORE!
 >
 > Whadday‘all think? Any chance at all the brainiacs at DND and their
 > political masters will ever figure that one out??? BIG sigh...
 >
 > - Joan
 >
 >
 > ----Original Message Follows----
 > From: "Jay Digital" 
 > Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
 > To: 
 > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
 > Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:06:31 -0500
 >
 > I‘m a little worried this recruiting bonanza will lead to a lower quality
of
 > recruits and training. Hopefully the CF will be able to main it‘s high
 > standards while still meeting their recruiting requirements.
 >
 >    ----- Original Message -----
 >    From: John Gow
 >    To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
 >    Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 10:02 PM
 >    Subject: CF Recruiting
 >
 >
 >    Good evening all...
 >
 >    Do try to catch the front end of th CBC‘s "National" tonight...they 
are
 > onto the Recruiting crisis and the pc problems of Women, Minorities and
 > aboriginals, and the number crunchers are in high gear...
 >
 >    John
 >
 > _________________________________________________________________________
 > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
 >
 > --------------------------------------------------------
 > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
 > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
 > message body.
 >
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Sun, 18 Mar 2001 04:52:04 -0000*
Thanks for the info. Will check it out.
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Jay Digital" 
Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
To: 
Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 22:12:16 -0500
All this stuff about a lack of money seems rather unreasonable to me. Many
new recruits I know are rolling in cash and can‘t spend it fast enough. I
imagine when you have a family to take care of your expenses will tend to
catch up with you but the wages aren‘t anywhere near unreasonable.
You can find the pay tables on the DND website somewhere. Rumour is the CF
is getting another raise in April.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joan O. Arc" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
 > Sounds good to me! Where do I sign up? : - The physical training alone
 > would probably do me in, I think!
 >
 > But, then, why all the stories in the press about soldiers Perhaps
regular
 > forces, not reservists? Is that the difference? who are making $16-$18K
per
 > year or whatever, sending their families to food banks, etc., etc.?
 >
 > And even if the press stories are misleading/wrong, perhaps it‘s this
 > *perception* that‘s seemingly causing people to stay away in droves?
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > ----Original Message Follows----
 > From: "Donald Schepens" 
 > Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
 > To: 
 > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
 > Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 19:41:05 -0700
 >
 > The equivalent of $36K a year while you are a University Student pro
rated
 > by the time you work isn‘t bad.
 >
 > Don
 > ----- Original Message -----
 > From: Derrick Forsythe 
 > To: ‘army-list@cdnarmy.ca‘ 
 > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 7:28 PM
 > Subject: RE: CF Recruiting
 >
 >
 >  > 2Lt‘s make three grand a month in the summers - plus free room and
board
 > -
 >  > and two grand rebate on their tuition if they stick around - I was
 > talking
 >  > with Col Yee about thsi this morning - we have to re-focus how we sell
 >  > ourselves - it‘s about the money -
 >  >
 >  > > -----Original Message-----
 >  > > From: Donald Schepens [SMTP:a.schepens@home.com]
 >  > > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 7:22 PM
 >  > > To: army-list@cdnarmy.ca
 >  > > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
 >  > >
 >  > > Actually, the pay right now is fairly good especially compared to
 >  > > labourers/fast food places.
 >  > >
 >  > > Don
 >  > > ----- Original Message -----
 >  > > From: Joan O. Arc 
 >  > > To: 
 >  > > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 6:51 PM
 >  > > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
 >  > >
 >  > >
 >  > > > See also the article in Saturday‘s *Globe and Mail* making more or
 > less
 >  > > the
 >  > > > same point as John‘s CBC segment: Recruiting from non-traditional
 > groups
 >  > > > women, aboriginals, etc. apparently *isn‘t* working all that
well,
 >  > > > resulting in lowered standards - precisely Jay‘s point - and
 > apparently
 >  > > > ridiculously high attrition rates, too.
 >  > > >
 >  > > > Maybe the CF should make the same concession Communist regimes
around
 >  > > the
 >  > > > world have had to make over the past 10 years, or so, and finally
 > admit
 >  > > that
 >  > > > people respond to "economic incentives". In other words, if they
want
 >  > > > more/better recruits, they‘re simply going to have to PAY MORE!
 >  > > >
 >  > > > Whadday‘all think? Any chance at all the brainiacs at DND and
their
 >  > > > political masters will ever figure that one out??? BIG sigh...
 >  > > >
 >  > > > - Joan
 >  > > >
 >  > > >
 >  > > > ----Original Message Follows----
 >  > > > From: "Jay Digital" 
 >  > > > Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
 >  > > > To: 
 >  > > > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
 >  > > > Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:06:31 -0500
 >  > > >
 >  > > > I‘m a little worried this recruiting bonanza will lead to a lower
 >  > > quality
 >  > > of
 >  > > > recruits and training. Hopefully the CF will be able to main it‘s
 > high
 >  > > > standards while still meeting their recruiting requirements.
 >  > > >
 >  > > >    ----- Original Message -----
 >  > > >    From: John Gow
 >  > > >    To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
 >  > > >    Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 10:02 PM
 >  > > >    Subject: CF Recruiting
 >  > > >
 >  > > >
 >  > > >    Good evening all...
 >  > > >
 >  > > >    Do try to catch the front end of th CBC‘s "National"
 > tonight...they
 >  > > are
 >  > > > onto the Recruiting crisis and the pc problems of Women, 
Minorities
 > and
 >  > > > aboriginals, and the number crunchers are in high gear...
 >  > > >
 >  > > >    John
 >  > > >
 >  > > >
 >  > >
 > _________________________________________________________________________
 >  > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
 >  > >  http://www.hotmail.com. 
 >  > > >
 >  > > > --------------------------------------------------------
 >  > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 >  > > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
 >  > > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
 >  > > > message body.
 >  > > >
 >  > >
 >  > > --------------------------------------------------------
 >  > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 >  > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
 >  > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
 >  > > message body.
 >  > --------------------------------------------------------
 >  > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 >  > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
 >  > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
 >  > message body.
 >
 > --------------------------------------------------------
 > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
 > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
 > message body.
 >
 > _________________________________________________________________________
 > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
 >
 > --------------------------------------------------------
 > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
 > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
 > message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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_________________________________________________________________________
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----------



## army

Posted by *"John Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Sun, 18 Mar 2001 00:00:20 -0500*
Very well...
Should not a section leader beable to carry fire and service the LMG of the
day?
Of course...else how did they get to be a section leader?
Of course, we cannot let Support Coy be an elitist male thing, not can we
restrict the promotional paths of their members either..."being sent to
Support Coy is DOOM"...because no female wants to carry the Carl Gustav,
hump the ammo, pick up the corner of the 106...
because they want the command slots....which, because so many males have
earned them...they need to be politically correctly put into them...where
they can conveniently give the orders, trather than do the work...
Sum up the point, Miss CBC?
Get some time in!
I served with "Ladies"...good honest tough women...who put it out in field
exercises, under the same conditions as the guys in an infantry
battalion...and who freely admitted that they could not get the job done in
an infantry section, let alone a platoon...and please do not suggest an
Infantry Company...not arguing a Service Corps slot...saw of them there, saw
them do the job, appreciated it...and here and now, umpteen years later, I
do not see females in a front line infantry unit doing the job...
Please produce examples beyond that wonderful wimp female that was again on
TV the other night about how she was captured and tied to a tree in
1992...ohhhh...boooo hooo...
But again, I speak with one of zero service..so blowing it off...because if
you are not one whose been there..and I deeply disrespect those that try and
claim something they have not done...
Strange to get so many of your "messages" tonight...and you fail to address
those that are directed to you...stand up or lie
down...Joan/Jesse/Burgess...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joan O. Arc" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
> Jay,
>
> I agree with you. In fact, "the best candidate for the job" is a rule that
I
> think should be almost universally applied, in every field, including,
of
> course, the CF.
>
> If it were, then - with the exception of lines of work such as the CF,
where
> there are in my opinion, anyway bona fide occupational requirements that
> make it almost impossible for women to measure up - you would see more
women
> in top jobs than you do today!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Joan
>
>
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: "Jay Digital" 
> Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> To: 
> Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 22:04:33 -0500
>
> I must say from my own experiences that women and minorities aren‘t
unfairly
> treated in the CF. I know this statement will draw fire but it has been my
> experience that the female recruits were held to lower standards and not
> subjected to the same punishments as the male recruits. The descrepancy
was
> particularly evident when comparying platoons with female recruits to ones
> that had no females. In the same vein, I have never experienced any sort
of
> racial bigotry in my experience with the CF. Admittedly, we only had one
> black recruit in my platoon but he was never treated any differently than
> anybody else. If anyone had any racial prejudices towards him they
certainly
> didn‘t make it evident.
>
> The CF is one of the most progressive militaries in the world when it
comes
> to the roles of men and women. In many countries women are completely
> forbidden from the combat arms where Canada has every trade and position
> open to both sexes. I think when you‘re dealing with something as
important
> as a nation‘s defense you shouldn‘t be worrying about something like
racial
> and sex quotas. The best candidate for the job should be the one who gets
> it. When lives are on the line, racial equity is going to be of little
> comfort to someone with a mortal wound that could have been prevented. I‘m
> not suggesting that a minority couldn‘t do just as good or a better job
than
> a white male, but I do think we should ignore this "racist" nonsense and
> focus on getting the best recruits.
>
> I think you also have to consider the people applying to the CF. The CF
can
> target their ads to minorities all they want but the majority of people
> applying to the ranks will indoubtedly be white males. You can‘t blame the
> CF for this. Since we have such a small military to begin with we need to
> focus on quality of the soldier, not colour.
>
> Feel free to fireback but I stand by my opinion. I am not a racist,
sexest,
> or whatever else you want to call me. I am simply a citizen of this great
> country who believes that the criteria for a job should be the skills of
the
> applicant, not the skin colour, sex, or religion.
>
> Jay
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joan O. Arc" 
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 8:51 PM
> Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
>
>
>  > See also the article in Saturday‘s *Globe and Mail* making more or less
> the
>  > same point as John‘s CBC segment: Recruiting from non-traditional
groups
>  > women, aboriginals, etc. apparently *isn‘t* working all that well,
>  > resulting in lowered standards - precisely Jay‘s point - and apparently
>  > ridiculously high attrition rates, too.
>  >
>  > Maybe the CF should make the same concession Communist regimes around
the
>  > world have had to make over the past 10 years, or so, and finally admit
> that
>  > people respond to "economic incentives". In other words, if they want
>  > more/better recruits, they‘re simply going to have to PAY MORE!
>  >
>  > Whadday‘all think? Any chance at all the brainiacs at DND and their
>  > political masters will ever figure that one out??? BIG sigh...
>  >
>  > - Joan
>  >
>  >
>  > ----Original Message Follows----
>  > From: "Jay Digital" 
>  > Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
>  > To: 
>  > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
>  > Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:06:31 -0500
>  >
>  > I‘m a little worried this recruiting bonanza will lead to a lower
quality
> of
>  > recruits and training. Hopefully the CF will be able to main it‘s high
>  > standards while still meeting their recruiting requirements.
>  >
>  >    ----- Original Message -----
>  >    From: John Gow
>  >    To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
>  >    Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 10:02 PM
>  >    Subject: CF Recruiting
>  >
>  >
>  >    Good evening all...
>  >
>  >    Do try to catch the front end of th CBC‘s "National" tonight...they
> are
>  > onto the Recruiting crisis and the pc problems of Women, Minorities and
>  > aboriginals, and the number crunchers are in high gear...
>  >
>  >    John
>  >
>  >
_________________________________________________________________________
>  > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
 http://www.hotmail.com. 
>  >
>  > --------------------------------------------------------
>  > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>  > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
>  > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
>  > message body.
>  >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Sun, 18 Mar 2001 05:16:35 -0000*
John, my dear, what can I say but: "Lay off the green beer, wouldja?"
Apologies if I‘ve posted too much tonight, but I, like you, am working away 
on a paper I‘m writing mine for a client who needs some market research 
done and am looking for ways to distract myself/procrastinate, including - 
I fear - mouthing off on this list.
Peace, man.
----Original Message Follows----
From: "John Gow" 
Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
To: 
Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 00:00:20 -0500
Very well...
Should not a section leader beable to carry fire and service the LMG of the
day?
Of course...else how did they get to be a section leader?
Of course, we cannot let Support Coy be an elitist male thing, not can we
restrict the promotional paths of their members either..."being sent to
Support Coy is DOOM"...because no female wants to carry the Carl Gustav,
hump the ammo, pick up the corner of the 106...
because they want the command slots....which, because so many males have
earned them...they need to be politically correctly put into them...where
they can conveniently give the orders, trather than do the work...
Sum up the point, Miss CBC?
Get some time in!
I served with "Ladies"...good honest tough women...who put it out in field
exercises, under the same conditions as the guys in an infantry
battalion...and who freely admitted that they could not get the job done in
an infantry section, let alone a platoon...and please do not suggest an
Infantry Company...not arguing a Service Corps slot...saw of them there, saw
them do the job, appreciated it...and here and now, umpteen years later, I
do not see females in a front line infantry unit doing the job...
Please produce examples beyond that wonderful wimp female that was again on
TV the other night about how she was captured and tied to a tree in
1992...ohhhh...boooo hooo...
But again, I speak with one of zero service..so blowing it off...because if
you are not one whose been there..and I deeply disrespect those that try and
claim something they have not done...
Strange to get so many of your "messages" tonight...and you fail to address
those that are directed to you...stand up or lie
down...Joan/Jesse/Burgess...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joan O. Arc" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
 > Jay,
 >
 > I agree with you. In fact, "the best candidate for the job" is a rule 
that
I
 > think should be almost universally applied, in every field, including,
of
 > course, the CF.
 >
 > If it were, then - with the exception of lines of work such as the CF,
where
 > there are in my opinion, anyway bona fide occupational requirements 
that
 > make it almost impossible for women to measure up - you would see more
women
 > in top jobs than you do today!
 >
 > Cheers,
 >
 > Joan
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > ----Original Message Follows----
 > From: "Jay Digital" 
 > Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
 > To: 
 > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
 > Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 22:04:33 -0500
 >
 > I must say from my own experiences that women and minorities aren‘t
unfairly
 > treated in the CF. I know this statement will draw fire but it has been 
my
 > experience that the female recruits were held to lower standards and not
 > subjected to the same punishments as the male recruits. The descrepancy
was
 > particularly evident when comparying platoons with female recruits to 
ones
 > that had no females. In the same vein, I have never experienced any sort
of
 > racial bigotry in my experience with the CF. Admittedly, we only had one
 > black recruit in my platoon but he was never treated any differently than
 > anybody else. If anyone had any racial prejudices towards him they
certainly
 > didn‘t make it evident.
 >
 > The CF is one of the most progressive militaries in the world when it
comes
 > to the roles of men and women. In many countries women are completely
 > forbidden from the combat arms where Canada has every trade and position
 > open to both sexes. I think when you‘re dealing with something as
important
 > as a nation‘s defense you shouldn‘t be worrying about something like
racial
 > and sex quotas. The best candidate for the job should be the one who gets
 > it. When lives are on the line, racial equity is going to be of little
 > comfort to someone with a mortal wound that could have been prevented. 
I‘m
 > not suggesting that a minority couldn‘t do just as good or a better job
than
 > a white male, but I do think we should ignore this "racist" nonsense and
 > focus on getting the best recruits.
 >
 > I think you also have to consider the people applying to the CF. The CF
can
 > target their ads to minorities all they want but the majority of people
 > applying to the ranks will indoubtedly be white males. You can‘t blame 
the
 > CF for this. Since we have such a small military to begin with we need to
 > focus on quality of the soldier, not colour.
 >
 > Feel free to fireback but I stand by my opinion. I am not a racist,
sexest,
 > or whatever else you want to call me. I am simply a citizen of this great
 > country who believes that the criteria for a job should be the skills of
the
 > applicant, not the skin colour, sex, or religion.
 >
 > Jay
 >
 > ----- Original Message -----
 > From: "Joan O. Arc" 
 > To: 
 > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 8:51 PM
 > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
 >
 >
 >  > See also the article in Saturday‘s *Globe and Mail* making more or 
less
 > the
 >  > same point as John‘s CBC segment: Recruiting from non-traditional
groups
 >  > women, aboriginals, etc. apparently *isn‘t* working all that well,
 >  > resulting in lowered standards - precisely Jay‘s point - and 
apparently
 >  > ridiculously high attrition rates, too.
 >  >
 >  > Maybe the CF should make the same concession Communist regimes around
the
 >  > world have had to make over the past 10 years, or so, and finally 
admit
 > that
 >  > people respond to "economic incentives". In other words, if they want
 >  > more/better recruits, they‘re simply going to have to PAY MORE!
 >  >
 >  > Whadday‘all think? Any chance at all the brainiacs at DND and their
 >  > political masters will ever figure that one out??? BIG sigh...
 >  >
 >  > - Joan
 >  >
 >  >
 >  > ----Original Message Follows----
 >  > From: "Jay Digital" 
 >  > Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
 >  > To: 
 >  > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
 >  > Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:06:31 -0500
 >  >
 >  > I‘m a little worried this recruiting bonanza will lead to a lower
quality
 > of
 >  > recruits and training. Hopefully the CF will be able to main it‘s high
 >  > standards while still meeting their recruiting requirements.
 >  >
 >  >    ----- Original Message -----
 >  >    From: John Gow
 >  >    To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
 >  >    Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 10:02 PM
 >  >    Subject: CF Recruiting
 >  >
 >  >
 >  >    Good evening all...
 >  >
 >  >    Do try to catch the front end of th CBC‘s "National" tonight...they
 > are
 >  > onto the Recruiting crisis and the pc problems of Women, Minorities 
and
 >  > aboriginals, and the number crunchers are in high gear...
 >  >
 >  >    John
 >  >
 >  >
_________________________________________________________________________
 >  > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
 http://www.hotmail.com. 
 >  >
 >  > --------------------------------------------------------
 >  > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 >  > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
 >  > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
 >  > message body.
 >  >
 >
 > --------------------------------------------------------
 > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
 > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
 > message body.
 >
 > _________________________________________________________________________
 > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
 >
 > --------------------------------------------------------
 > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
 > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
 > message body.
 >
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"dave" <dave.newcombe@home.com>* on *Sun, 18 Mar 2001 11:14:53 -0800*
I made 17k a year as a corporal, in 1982, I think the pay has gone up since
then....
If it is all about money, then by all means go out and be a lawyer..
But if you want a career, full training, for your whole career, guaranteed
employment, diversity of tasks, pride, and good friends.......
To be paid to go to university..RMC or college various programs for
NCM‘s, then drop down to the recruiters.
when I joined, the last thing on my mind was money, but I was single young,
and had no children.  I knew they paid me enough to save a little and buy
some toys, when I was promoted, then I recieved more.  Todays recruits often
come into the forces carrying huge baggagefinacially.  In 1978, they would
not let you join if you were in debt up to your ears, or if you were over
weight, or had a drinking problem, etc.  It was hard enough just carrying
arouind the baggage they gave you.
I don‘t think the enlisted ranks should be filled with university students,
who compare it to GM, Bombardier, or other commercial outfits.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Derrick Forsythe" 
To: "‘army-list@cdnarmy.ca‘" 
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 6:28 PM
Subject: RE: CF Recruiting
> 2Lt‘s make three grand a month in the summers - plus free room and board -
> and two grand rebate on their tuition if they stick around - I was talking
> with Col Yee about thsi this morning - we have to re-focus how we sell
> ourselves - it‘s about the money -
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Donald Schepens [SMTP:a.schepens@home.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 7:22 PM
> > To: army-list@cdnarmy.ca
> > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
> >
> > Actually, the pay right now is fairly good especially compared to
> > labourers/fast food places.
> >
> > Don
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Joan O. Arc 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 6:51 PM
> > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
> >
> >
> > > See also the article in Saturday‘s *Globe and Mail* making more or
less
> > the
> > > same point as John‘s CBC segment: Recruiting from non-traditional
groups
> > > women, aboriginals, etc. apparently *isn‘t* working all that well,
> > > resulting in lowered standards - precisely Jay‘s point - and
apparently
> > > ridiculously high attrition rates, too.
> > >
> > > Maybe the CF should make the same concession Communist regimes around
> > the
> > > world have had to make over the past 10 years, or so, and finally
admit
> > that
> > > people respond to "economic incentives". In other words, if they want
> > > more/better recruits, they‘re simply going to have to PAY MORE!
> > >
> > > Whadday‘all think? Any chance at all the brainiacs at DND and their
> > > political masters will ever figure that one out??? BIG sigh...
> > >
> > > - Joan
> > >
> > >
> > > ----Original Message Follows----
> > > From: "Jay Digital" 
> > > Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > > To: 
> > > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
> > > Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:06:31 -0500
> > >
> > > I‘m a little worried this recruiting bonanza will lead to a lower
> > quality
> > of
> > > recruits and training. Hopefully the CF will be able to main it‘s high
> > > standards while still meeting their recruiting requirements.
> > >
> > >    ----- Original Message -----
> > >    From: John Gow
> > >    To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > >    Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 10:02 PM
> > >    Subject: CF Recruiting
> > >
> > >
> > >    Good evening all...
> > >
> > >    Do try to catch the front end of th CBC‘s "National" tonight...they
> > are
> > > onto the Recruiting crisis and the pc problems of Women, Minorities
and
> > > aboriginals, and the number crunchers are in high gear...
> > >
> > >    John
> > >
> > >
> >
_________________________________________________________________________
> > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> >  http://www.hotmail.com. 
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > message body.
> > >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Mon, 19 Mar 2001 02:39:47 -0000*
Excellent points all.
- the literate one :
----Original Message Follows----
From: "dave" 
Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
To: 
Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 11:14:53 -0800
I made 17k a year as a corporal, in 1982, I think the pay has gone up since
then....
If it is all about money, then by all means go out and be a lawyer..
But if you want a career, full training, for your whole career, guaranteed
employment, diversity of tasks, pride, and good friends.......
To be paid to go to university..RMC or college various programs for
NCM‘s, then drop down to the recruiters.
when I joined, the last thing on my mind was money, but I was single young,
and had no children.  I knew they paid me enough to save a little and buy
some toys, when I was promoted, then I recieved more.  Todays recruits often
come into the forces carrying huge baggagefinacially.  In 1978, they would
not let you join if you were in debt up to your ears, or if you were over
weight, or had a drinking problem, etc.  It was hard enough just carrying
arouind the baggage they gave you.
I don‘t think the enlisted ranks should be filled with university students,
who compare it to GM, Bombardier, or other commercial outfits.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Derrick Forsythe" 
To: "‘army-list@cdnarmy.ca‘" 
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 6:28 PM
Subject: RE: CF Recruiting
 > 2Lt‘s make three grand a month in the summers - plus free room and board 
-
 > and two grand rebate on their tuition if they stick around - I was 
talking
 > with Col Yee about thsi this morning - we have to re-focus how we sell
 > ourselves - it‘s about the money -
 >
 > > -----Original Message-----
 > > From: Donald Schepens [SMTP:a.schepens@home.com]
 > > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 7:22 PM
 > > To: army-list@cdnarmy.ca
 > > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
 > >
 > > Actually, the pay right now is fairly good especially compared to
 > > labourers/fast food places.
 > >
 > > Don
 > > ----- Original Message -----
 > > From: Joan O. Arc 
 > > To: 
 > > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 6:51 PM
 > > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
 > >
 > >
 > > > See also the article in Saturday‘s *Globe and Mail* making more or
less
 > > the
 > > > same point as John‘s CBC segment: Recruiting from non-traditional
groups
 > > > women, aboriginals, etc. apparently *isn‘t* working all that well,
 > > > resulting in lowered standards - precisely Jay‘s point - and
apparently
 > > > ridiculously high attrition rates, too.
 > > >
 > > > Maybe the CF should make the same concession Communist regimes around
 > > the
 > > > world have had to make over the past 10 years, or so, and finally
admit
 > > that
 > > > people respond to "economic incentives". In other words, if they want
 > > > more/better recruits, they‘re simply going to have to PAY MORE!
 > > >
 > > > Whadday‘all think? Any chance at all the brainiacs at DND and their
 > > > political masters will ever figure that one out??? BIG sigh...
 > > >
 > > > - Joan
 > > >
 > > >
 > > > ----Original Message Follows----
 > > > From: "Jay Digital" 
 > > > Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
 > > > To: 
 > > > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
 > > > Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:06:31 -0500
 > > >
 > > > I‘m a little worried this recruiting bonanza will lead to a lower
 > > quality
 > > of
 > > > recruits and training. Hopefully the CF will be able to main it‘s 
high
 > > > standards while still meeting their recruiting requirements.
 > > >
 > > >    ----- Original Message -----
 > > >    From: John Gow
 > > >    To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
 > > >    Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 10:02 PM
 > > >    Subject: CF Recruiting
 > > >
 > > >
 > > >    Good evening all...
 > > >
 > > >    Do try to catch the front end of th CBC‘s "National" 
tonight...they
 > > are
 > > > onto the Recruiting crisis and the pc problems of Women, Minorities
and
 > > > aboriginals, and the number crunchers are in high gear...
 > > >
 > > >    John
 > > >
 > > >
 > >
_________________________________________________________________________
 > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
 > >  http://www.hotmail.com. 
 > > >
 > > > --------------------------------------------------------
 > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 > > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
 > > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
 > > > message body.
 > > >
 > >
 > > --------------------------------------------------------
 > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
 > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
 > > message body.
 > --------------------------------------------------------
 > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
 > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
 > message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
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_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Steven and Tracy" <stcurtis@compusmart.ab.ca>* on *	Mon, 19 Mar 2001 13:25:04 -0700*
No this is right!!!
> I‘m not sure what the pay rates are for regular force privates someone
had
> posted the website with the pay rates in a while ago.  However, I‘m sure
> that they are higher than this.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joan O. Arc 
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 8:01 PM
> Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
>
>
> > Sounds good to me! Where do I sign up? : - The physical training alone
> > would probably do me in, I think!
> >
> > But, then, why all the stories in the press about soldiers Perhaps
> regular
> > forces, not reservists? Is that the difference? who are making $16-$18K
> per
> > year or whatever, sending their families to food banks, etc., etc.?
> >
> > And even if the press stories are misleading/wrong, perhaps it‘s this
> > *perception* that‘s seemingly causing people to stay away in droves?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----Original Message Follows----
> > From: "Donald Schepens" 
> > Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > To: 
> > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
> > Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 19:41:05 -0700
> >
> > The equivalent of $36K a year while you are a University Student pro
> rated
> > by the time you work isn‘t bad.
> >
> > Don
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Derrick Forsythe 
> > To: ‘army-list@cdnarmy.ca‘ 
> > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 7:28 PM
> > Subject: RE: CF Recruiting
> >
> >
> >  > 2Lt‘s make three grand a month in the summers - plus free room and
> board
> > -
> >  > and two grand rebate on their tuition if they stick around - I was
> > talking
> >  > with Col Yee about thsi this morning - we have to re-focus how we
sell
> >  > ourselves - it‘s about the money -
> >  >
> >  > > -----Original Message-----
> >  > > From: Donald Schepens [SMTP:a.schepens@home.com]
> >  > > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 7:22 PM
> >  > > To: army-list@cdnarmy.ca
> >  > > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
> >  > >
> >  > > Actually, the pay right now is fairly good especially compared to
> >  > > labourers/fast food places.
> >  > >
> >  > > Don
> >  > > ----- Original Message -----
> >  > > From: Joan O. Arc 
> >  > > To: 
> >  > > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 6:51 PM
> >  > > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
> >  > >
> >  > >
> >  > > > See also the article in Saturday‘s *Globe and Mail* making more
or
> > less
> >  > > the
> >  > > > same point as John‘s CBC segment: Recruiting from non-traditional
> > groups
> >  > > > women, aboriginals, etc. apparently *isn‘t* working all that
> well,
> >  > > > resulting in lowered standards - precisely Jay‘s point - and
> > apparently
> >  > > > ridiculously high attrition rates, too.
> >  > > >
> >  > > > Maybe the CF should make the same concession Communist regimes
> around
> >  > > the
> >  > > > world have had to make over the past 10 years, or so, and finally
> > admit
> >  > > that
> >  > > > people respond to "economic incentives". In other words, if they
> want
> >  > > > more/better recruits, they‘re simply going to have to PAY MORE!
> >  > > >
> >  > > > Whadday‘all think? Any chance at all the brainiacs at DND and
> their
> >  > > > political masters will ever figure that one out??? BIG sigh...
> >  > > >
> >  > > > - Joan
> >  > > >
> >  > > >
> >  > > > ----Original Message Follows----
> >  > > > From: "Jay Digital" 
> >  > > > Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> >  > > > To: 
> >  > > > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
> >  > > > Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:06:31 -0500
> >  > > >
> >  > > > I‘m a little worried this recruiting bonanza will lead to a lower
> >  > > quality
> >  > > of
> >  > > > recruits and training. Hopefully the CF will be able to main it‘s
> > high
> >  > > > standards while still meeting their recruiting requirements.
> >  > > >
> >  > > >    ----- Original Message -----
> >  > > >    From: John Gow
> >  > > >    To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> >  > > >    Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 10:02 PM
> >  > > >    Subject: CF Recruiting
> >  > > >
> >  > > >
> >  > > >    Good evening all...
> >  > > >
> >  > > >    Do try to catch the front end of th CBC‘s "National"
> > tonight...they
> >  > > are
> >  > > > onto the Recruiting crisis and the pc problems of Women,
Minorities
> > and
> >  > > > aboriginals, and the number crunchers are in high gear...
> >  > > >
> >  > > >    John
> >  > > >
> >  > > >
> >  > >
> >
_________________________________________________________________________
> >  > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> >  > >  http://www.hotmail.com. 
> >  > > >
> >  > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> >  > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> >  > > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> >  > > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> >  > > > message body.
> >  > > >
> >  > >
> >  > > --------------------------------------------------------
> >  > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> >  > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> >  > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> >  > > message body.
> >  > --------------------------------------------------------
> >  > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> >  > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> >  > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> >  > message body.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
> >
> >
_________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
 http://www.hotmail.com. 
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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>
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Steven and Tracy" <stcurtis@compusmart.ab.ca>* on *	Mon, 19 Mar 2001 13:20:16 -0700*
I really don‘t understand why there are so many complaints about the pay in
the forces!!!  How many people would be able to go out into civy street and
make what they do here
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jay Digital" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
> All this stuff about a lack of money seems rather unreasonable to me. Many
> new recruits I know are rolling in cash and can‘t spend it fast enough. I
> imagine when you have a family to take care of your expenses will tend to
> catch up with you but the wages aren‘t anywhere near unreasonable.
>
> You can find the pay tables on the DND website somewhere. Rumour is the CF
> is getting another raise in April.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joan O. Arc" 
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 10:01 PM
> Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
>
>
> > Sounds good to me! Where do I sign up? : - The physical training alone
> > would probably do me in, I think!
> >
> > But, then, why all the stories in the press about soldiers Perhaps
> regular
> > forces, not reservists? Is that the difference? who are making $16-$18K
> per
> > year or whatever, sending their families to food banks, etc., etc.?
> >
> > And even if the press stories are misleading/wrong, perhaps it‘s this
> > *perception* that‘s seemingly causing people to stay away in droves?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----Original Message Follows----
> > From: "Donald Schepens" 
> > Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > To: 
> > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
> > Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 19:41:05 -0700
> >
> > The equivalent of $36K a year while you are a University Student pro
> rated
> > by the time you work isn‘t bad.
> >
> > Don
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Derrick Forsythe 
> > To: ‘army-list@cdnarmy.ca‘ 
> > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 7:28 PM
> > Subject: RE: CF Recruiting
> >
> >
> >  > 2Lt‘s make three grand a month in the summers - plus free room and
> board
> > -
> >  > and two grand rebate on their tuition if they stick around - I was
> > talking
> >  > with Col Yee about thsi this morning - we have to re-focus how we
sell
> >  > ourselves - it‘s about the money -
> >  >
> >  > > -----Original Message-----
> >  > > From: Donald Schepens [SMTP:a.schepens@home.com]
> >  > > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 7:22 PM
> >  > > To: army-list@cdnarmy.ca
> >  > > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
> >  > >
> >  > > Actually, the pay right now is fairly good especially compared to
> >  > > labourers/fast food places.
> >  > >
> >  > > Don
> >  > > ----- Original Message -----
> >  > > From: Joan O. Arc 
> >  > > To: 
> >  > > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 6:51 PM
> >  > > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
> >  > >
> >  > >
> >  > > > See also the article in Saturday‘s *Globe and Mail* making more
or
> > less
> >  > > the
> >  > > > same point as John‘s CBC segment: Recruiting from non-traditional
> > groups
> >  > > > women, aboriginals, etc. apparently *isn‘t* working all that
> well,
> >  > > > resulting in lowered standards - precisely Jay‘s point - and
> > apparently
> >  > > > ridiculously high attrition rates, too.
> >  > > >
> >  > > > Maybe the CF should make the same concession Communist regimes
> around
> >  > > the
> >  > > > world have had to make over the past 10 years, or so, and finally
> > admit
> >  > > that
> >  > > > people respond to "economic incentives". In other words, if they
> want
> >  > > > more/better recruits, they‘re simply going to have to PAY MORE!
> >  > > >
> >  > > > Whadday‘all think? Any chance at all the brainiacs at DND and
> their
> >  > > > political masters will ever figure that one out??? BIG sigh...
> >  > > >
> >  > > > - Joan
> >  > > >
> >  > > >
> >  > > > ----Original Message Follows----
> >  > > > From: "Jay Digital" 
> >  > > > Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> >  > > > To: 
> >  > > > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
> >  > > > Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:06:31 -0500
> >  > > >
> >  > > > I‘m a little worried this recruiting bonanza will lead to a lower
> >  > > quality
> >  > > of
> >  > > > recruits and training. Hopefully the CF will be able to main it‘s
> > high
> >  > > > standards while still meeting their recruiting requirements.
> >  > > >
> >  > > >    ----- Original Message -----
> >  > > >    From: John Gow
> >  > > >    To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> >  > > >    Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 10:02 PM
> >  > > >    Subject: CF Recruiting
> >  > > >
> >  > > >
> >  > > >    Good evening all...
> >  > > >
> >  > > >    Do try to catch the front end of th CBC‘s "National"
> > tonight...they
> >  > > are
> >  > > > onto the Recruiting crisis and the pc problems of Women,
Minorities
> > and
> >  > > > aboriginals, and the number crunchers are in high gear...
> >  > > >
> >  > > >    John
> >  > > >
> >  > > >
> >  > >
> >
_________________________________________________________________________
> >  > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> >  > >  http://www.hotmail.com. 
> >  > > >
> >  > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> >  > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> >  > > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> >  > > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> >  > > > message body.
> >  > > >
> >  > >
> >  > > --------------------------------------------------------
> >  > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> >  > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> >  > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> >  > > message body.
> >  > --------------------------------------------------------
> >  > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> >  > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> >  > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> >  > message body.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
> >
> >
_________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
 http://www.hotmail.com. 
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
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remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Jay Digital" <todesengel@home.com>* on *Mon, 19 Mar 2001 15:57:05 -0500*
If you‘re in a tech trade you could easily make 50 to 100 more in most
cases...of course in the CF you don‘t need a degree and they do all your
training.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven and Tracy" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
> I really don‘t understand why there are so many complaints about the pay
in
> the forces!!!  How many people would be able to go out into civy street
and
> make what they do here
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jay Digital" 
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 8:12 PM
> Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
>
>
> > All this stuff about a lack of money seems rather unreasonable to me.
Many
> > new recruits I know are rolling in cash and can‘t spend it fast enough.
I
> > imagine when you have a family to take care of your expenses will tend
to
> > catch up with you but the wages aren‘t anywhere near unreasonable.
> >
> > You can find the pay tables on the DND website somewhere. Rumour is the
CF
> > is getting another raise in April.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joan O. Arc" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 10:01 PM
> > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
> >
> >
> > > Sounds good to me! Where do I sign up? : - The physical training
alone
> > > would probably do me in, I think!
> > >
> > > But, then, why all the stories in the press about soldiers Perhaps
> > regular
> > > forces, not reservists? Is that the difference? who are making
$16-$18K
> > per
> > > year or whatever, sending their families to food banks, etc., etc.?
> > >
> > > And even if the press stories are misleading/wrong, perhaps it‘s this
> > > *perception* that‘s seemingly causing people to stay away in droves?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----Original Message Follows----
> > > From: "Donald Schepens" 
> > > Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > > To: 
> > > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
> > > Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 19:41:05 -0700
> > >
> > > The equivalent of $36K a year while you are a University Student pro
> > rated
> > > by the time you work isn‘t bad.
> > >
> > > Don
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Derrick Forsythe 
> > > To: ‘army-list@cdnarmy.ca‘ 
> > > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 7:28 PM
> > > Subject: RE: CF Recruiting
> > >
> > >
> > >  > 2Lt‘s make three grand a month in the summers - plus free room and
> > board
> > > -
> > >  > and two grand rebate on their tuition if they stick around - I was
> > > talking
> > >  > with Col Yee about thsi this morning - we have to re-focus how we
> sell
> > >  > ourselves - it‘s about the money -
> > >  >
> > >  > > -----Original Message-----
> > >  > > From: Donald Schepens [SMTP:a.schepens@home.com]
> > >  > > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 7:22 PM
> > >  > > To: army-list@cdnarmy.ca
> > >  > > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
> > >  > >
> > >  > > Actually, the pay right now is fairly good especially compared to
> > >  > > labourers/fast food places.
> > >  > >
> > >  > > Don
> > >  > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >  > > From: Joan O. Arc 
> > >  > > To: 
> > >  > > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 6:51 PM
> > >  > > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
> > >  > >
> > >  > >
> > >  > > > See also the article in Saturday‘s *Globe and Mail* making more
> or
> > > less
> > >  > > the
> > >  > > > same point as John‘s CBC segment: Recruiting from
non-traditional
> > > groups
> > >  > > > women, aboriginals, etc. apparently *isn‘t* working all that
> > well,
> > >  > > > resulting in lowered standards - precisely Jay‘s point - and
> > > apparently
> > >  > > > ridiculously high attrition rates, too.
> > >  > > >
> > >  > > > Maybe the CF should make the same concession Communist regimes
> > around
> > >  > > the
> > >  > > > world have had to make over the past 10 years, or so, and
finally
> > > admit
> > >  > > that
> > >  > > > people respond to "economic incentives". In other words, if
they
> > want
> > >  > > > more/better recruits, they‘re simply going to have to PAY MORE!
> > >  > > >
> > >  > > > Whadday‘all think? Any chance at all the brainiacs at DND and
> > their
> > >  > > > political masters will ever figure that one out??? BIG
sigh...
> > >  > > >
> > >  > > > - Joan
> > >  > > >
> > >  > > >
> > >  > > > ----Original Message Follows----
> > >  > > > From: "Jay Digital" 
> > >  > > > Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > >  > > > To: 
> > >  > > > Subject: Re: CF Recruiting
> > >  > > > Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:06:31 -0500
> > >  > > >
> > >  > > > I‘m a little worried this recruiting bonanza will lead to a
lower
> > >  > > quality
> > >  > > of
> > >  > > > recruits and training. Hopefully the CF will be able to main
it‘s
> > > high
> > >  > > > standards while still meeting their recruiting requirements.
> > >  > > >
> > >  > > >    ----- Original Message -----
> > >  > > >    From: John Gow
> > >  > > >    To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > >  > > >    Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 10:02 PM
> > >  > > >    Subject: CF Recruiting
> > >  > > >
> > >  > > >
> > >  > > >    Good evening all...
> > >  > > >
> > >  > > >    Do try to catch the front end of th CBC‘s "National"
> > > tonight...they
> > >  > > are
> > >  > > > onto the Recruiting crisis and the pc problems of Women,
> Minorities
> > > and
> > >  > > > aboriginals, and the number crunchers are in high gear...
> > >  > > >
> > >  > > >    John
> > >  > > >
> > >  > > >
> > >  > >
> > >
> _________________________________________________________________________
> > >  > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> > >  > >  http://www.hotmail.com. 
> > >  > > >
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