# Does anyone have anything good to say about CSS?



## gun plumber (1 Oct 2004)

Looking for any good things you have to say about CSS.I don't take all of the "If your aint combat,you aint"stuff to heart but I'd just like to hear a couple of good experiences you guys have had. You know,the extra special meal the cook cooked up in the field,the mechanic who worked 10hrs in a row so your LAV could be on the line,or the clerk who fixed all your 5yr old pay problems.That kinda stuff.
Ok,time for my rant:

ahem,hey
I'm not out of shape or unmotivated,
I dont carry a rucksack everyday,or do Plt attacks,or go to the range 5 times a year,and I don't know fat arse,slacker or CSS plug because we all work hard in my shop.
I have an ETQMS,not a CSM,and I pronounce it"change the barrel after 200 rounds",not"let's link together 10 belts and see what happens" 
I proudly can sew my cap badge after 10 months of QL3 training,not 8 weeks
I belive in TEAMWORK,not infighting,and its called "Maintance"not"civies in uniform"
Weapons Tech is the oldest trade in the army(think about it)and the best part of the EME branch!
My name Gun Plumber and I AM A TECHNICIAN!!!
Thank you

This was done as humor,no jabs intended!


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## sinblox (1 Oct 2004)

gun plumber said:
			
		

> I pronounce it"change the barrel after 200 rounds",not"let's link together 10 belts and see what happens"



heheh. gold.


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## PPCLI Guy (1 Oct 2004)

I posted this earlier:



> I had the distinct honour of being OC Admin in 3 VP, during which time we re-roled from Light to Grizzly and did a PALLADIUM tour.  The Maintainers worked unbelievable hours - and still maintained a high level of fitness.  The QM worked equally long hours, stretched many rules on behalf of the Bn, all while maintaining a strong esprit de corps.  The transport guys ran course after course in the work ups, and then did stalwart duty in theatre keeping us moving.  The Med As (this is back when we owned them) worked just as hard as the Rifle Coys.
> 
> Now all of that is to be expected - it is after all their job.  But on top of all of this, 3 VP had a strong "warrior" mentality.  Prior to deployment, all personnel, regardless of trade, were required to go through live fire pairs fire and movement.  The CSS soldiers relished the opportunity to practice and demonstrate their soldierly skills -- indeed the Maint boys progressed to section, and Transport to Platoon live fire.  Having said that, the CSM and I did a lot of pairs fire and movement, cus some were just too iffy to pair up with anyone else (think doctors and padres).



So yeah - it is not all bad news...


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## Danjanou (1 Oct 2004)

Great rant there Joe err Gun Plumber

Way back in the1980s when I was with 1RNLDR we decided to form all our assorted CSS into an ad hoc Log Pl to support our one operational full strength Rifle Coy. I was sent over, kicking and screaming as would any young full of piss and vinegar Infantry Sgt would be, to take over as the Pl WO of this unit. The Pl Comd was a CFR Capt Logistics type remustered from Infantry, he had been the Bns  RSM years earlier.

Well my attitude changed and quickly. I soon found I had the privilege of serving with a good bunch of professional soldiers. Over half of the CSS types were remusters from RO31, some were career Cpls who either didn't want to move up or couldn't for various reasons (careers family etc) and were getting too long in the tooth to keep doing Sect and Pl attacks for their daily bread. Others had changed trades for medical reasons.

They had not forgotten they were Soldiers first trades types second. We did all the ex's cammed up, carrying wpns, digging in etc and if needed could act as Infanteers. As I said some of the guys were old grunts and knew quite a few ticks which their younger counterparts in the rifle platoons ended up learning the hard way usually if we were tasked as OPFOR. We were quite proud of the fact we could hold our own and at times even out march and out shoot some of the line platoons who on average were 5-10 years younger than we/they were. Woe behold the poor buggers who tried to launch a raid into our lines and hit our well dug in positions too ( like I said they were sneaky sods with fairly unlimited access to all sorts of great toys like trip flares etc).

Overall not a bad assignment, and I came away with a better understanding of the roles of  â Å“myâ ? cooks, gun plumbers, veh techs etc which only served to improve my own job knowledge overall.

I think many of the recent cracks here by those at the sharp end are not directed at the CSS trades as a whole. We are well aware of the importance of your roles. Hey it would get pretty lonely at the FEBA without working wpns radios, ammo, food water etc. 

Rather what they have been directed at is those members of the CSS that have come on here (and elsewhere) with their â Å“I only joined up to learn a trade that I can flog on civvy street for big bucks later and I don't need any of this Army BSâ ? types.

Much as we Infantry types need to police up the â Å“rambo ninjasniper wannabesâ ? in our ranks I guess you guys need to drag some of these wastes of the taxpayers money out for a â Å“short walk in the woodsâ ? and explain to them what their role and job is.

Ok I'll stop ranting now and crawl back into my hole.


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## Tpr.Orange (1 Oct 2004)

GUN PLUMBERS HUA!

but as a plumber you should get on a range more then 5 times a year...at least ive been able to


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## gun plumber (1 Oct 2004)

I intended the "I don't go to the range 5 times a year"line to mean actually shoot. I my short time here I've been to many ranges of all types but to ply my trade rather then to shoot.
I wish I could test fire all the weapons I prefire.....


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## Tpr.Orange (1 Oct 2004)

aint that the truth


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## the 48th regulator (1 Oct 2004)

you guys rock!!


tess


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## pbi (2 Oct 2004)

> Looking for any good things you have to say about CSS.I don't take all of the "If your aint combat,you aint"stuff to heart but I'd just like to hear a couple of good experiences you guys have had. You know,the extra special meal the cook cooked up in the field,the mechanic who worked 10hrs in a row so your LAV could be on the line,or the clerk who fixed all your 5yr old pay problems.That kinda stuff.



gun plumber: I think I've stated a couple of times what my opinions of CSS soldiers are, including examples of outstandng CSS types who were accepted as peers by the 031's.  Like PPCLI Guy, I have had the privelige of commanding Admin Coy in an Infantry battalion. Please don't confuse our concern over operational readiness and inadequate training with any attempt to slight CSS as people or as hard workers. Certainly neither PPCLI Guy nor I would say that. Cheers.


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## dglad (2 Oct 2004)

Very simple...without an effective CSS element behind it, combat arms are dead...in...the...water.

Now, while I've certainly spouted my share of "REMF" lines over the years, I've come to realize that without the "enablers", the F echelon can't get where it wants to to, and can't do anything even if it could get there.  The fact is that the army is an integrated whole, from the backmost bit of strategic general support to the frontmost rifleman in a trench.  If any part of that continuum fails, it all falls apart.  And, as they say, "amateurs practice tactics, while professionals practice logistics".  

Which is why it's so important that we make CSS in the Army work properly, something it's not really doing these days.  There's not enough recognition of the non-contiguous battlespace in CSS doctrine, and too much emphasis on specific technical skills.

This is a whole other topic....


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## PPCLI Guy (2 Oct 2004)

dglad said:
			
		

> There's not enough recognition of the non-contiguous battlespace in CSS doctrine, and too much emphasis on specific technical skills.



I sgree completely.  It is like everyone is ignoring the 800 lb gorilla in the doctrinal living room.


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## Tpr.Orange (2 Oct 2004)

pbi said:
			
		

> gun plumber: I think I've stated a couple of times what my opinions of CSS soldiers are, including examples of outstandng CSS types who were accepted as peers by the 031's.   Like PPCLI Guy, I have had the privelige of commanding Admin Coy in an Infantry battalion. Please don't confuse our concern over operational readiness and inadequate training with any attempt to slight CSS as people or as hard workers. Certainly neither PPCLI Guy nor I would say that. Cheers.



Much appreciated.


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## bossi (10 Oct 2004)

Tuchman said "nothing so comforts the military mind as the words of a great, but dead general."
Conversely, few could care less about the musings of a junior officer ... which is unfortunate.

I'd say "CSS - don't leave home without it."
On Op ATHENA the CSS folks were the ones who made life bearable in lousy conditions.

Back at the Regt when I was in Sp Coy we had the highest attendance rate - almost all the CSS troops would turn out for almost every exercise (while the rifle coy lost 40% of their troops to attrition in the same period ... hmmm ... kinda makes me wonder what the point of recruiting was, when somebody else thought it was a measure of their success to kick out as many as possible ... but, I digress ...)



> "Logistics controls all campaigns and limits many."


- Dwight D. Eisenhower



> "At the operational level much more than the tactical, logistics may determine what is possible and what is not; for a campaign plan that can not be logistically supported is not a plan at all, but simply an expression of fanciful wishes."


  
- John F. Meehan III, The Operational Art


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## pbi (10 Oct 2004)

"Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics" (Attribution??)

A rifle without ammunition is a stick. A tank without fuel is a target. A soldier without food and water is dead after a bit. All of these things, and more, are provided by CSS. This is why CSS is vital, why CSS must be survivable in the battlespace, and why CSS is too important to be left to the unified purple system. CSS is the responsibilty of commanders, not of CSS types.  Cheers.


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## bossi (10 Oct 2004)

> "Amateurs talk about strategy; Professionals talk about logistics."


In recent times seems to be widely attributed to former Cmdt USMC R.H. Barrows

However, General of the Army (and first Chairman JSC) Omar Bradley said it first:


> "Amateurs talk tactics, dilettantes talk strategy, and professionals talk logistics."



(and I'm also fond of "Competence, like truth, beauty and contact lenses, is in the eye of the beholder.")


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## gun plumber (10 Oct 2004)

I've heard of this"purple system"before on other strings and here I was just wondering what it is you are refering to in respect to training?


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## Armymedic (10 Oct 2004)

"purple" refers to our trades that are not specifically hard Army, Navy, or Air Force.

ie, Medics, cooks, clerks, veh techs, etc. or better said anyone who's MOC is 400, 700, 800, 900.


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## pbi (10 Oct 2004)

Armymedic said:
			
		

> "purple" refers to our trades that are not specifically hard Army, Navy, or Air Force.
> 
> ie, Medics, cooks, clerks, veh techs, etc. or better said anyone who's MOC is 400, 700, 800, 900.




Yes-that's generally it. "Purple" is used in the US and Canadian forces as an unofficial designator for anything that is "joint" ie: assigned to more than one of the Services, or not specifically the property of any one Service. Joint HQs or joint training programs are often referred to as "purple". The term is   not meant in a bad way: it just suggests the colour you get if you mix two shades of blue with brown.

I am using it in my post to refer to the unified CSS system, which if you read my various little rants you will know I am not a big fan of. I am a very big fan of good CSS soldiers, not of the system. Cheers.


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## Eowyn (11 Oct 2004)

Armymedic said:
			
		

> "purple" refers to our trades that are not specifically hard Army, Navy, or Air Force.
> 
> ie, Medics, cooks, clerks, veh techs, etc. or better said anyone who's MOC is 400, 700, 800, 900.



If I understood my time as a Maintenance Officer, EME (Vehicle tech included) do belong to the army, although there are some in the Air Force.


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## rounder (16 Oct 2004)

I've said it once and I'll say it again. 

"The difference between professional and non professional armies is logistics".

Just ask Field Marshall Paulus.


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## Infanteer (16 Oct 2004)

Actually I think the quote was "Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics", or something to that effect.

And I think Von Paulus' chief concern was being surrounded and destroyed by a massive Soviet pincer attack (hence, operations).


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## AmmoTech90 (16 Oct 2004)

Eowyn said:
			
		

> If I understood my time as a Maintenance Officer, EME (Vehicle tech included) do belong to the army, although there are some in the Air Force.



There are some trades that only wear one DEU.  All Ammo Techs and EME branch pers wear army DEU.  All CE wear Airforce (I believe).  There are other examples.  This doesn't change regardless of where you are employed.


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## rounder (17 Oct 2004)

> And I think Von Paulus' chief concern was being surrounded and destroyed by a massive Soviet pincer attack (hence, operations).



True... However, if logistics had not failed he would not have been concerned about the pincer attack. Lets be realistic... logistics failed the 6th Army... not Paulus. 

And Von Richtofen (sp???)


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## Infanteer (17 Oct 2004)

Rommel failed at logistics in North Africa, Von Paulus stumbled into a trap.


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## Pikache (17 Oct 2004)

No, von Paulus was a dumbass with too much faith in Hitler. Failed to see realism of the situation.


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## Infanteer (17 Oct 2004)

> No, von Paulus was a dumbass with too much faith in Hitler.



Hence, the trap.  The Soviets new the psycological value of Stalingrad to the Third Reich and exploited it to the utmost.  A clear-thinking stratagist would not have employed sub-par Romanian Armies to guard both flanks of the spear head (and back them up with sub-par Italians).

Anyways, were turning this discussion into another history debate.


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