# supply system?



## sigtech (28 Jul 2005)

Why is it that a regular force member isn't issued standard kit, clothe the soldier seems like a farce. Here is the new kit but you can't have it we don't have enough so only these people get it. When will the forces get it and buy the correct amount of kit for all serving members.
 :crybaby: Just the Whining of a Forces member


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## SigPigs (28 Jul 2005)

I take it you must be new in the CF. Because otherwise you know about limited budgets. We don't have the MONEY. Simple. 
No big mystery here. MONEY.
Did I say MONEY??

Maybe when we get some everyone will have all the right (new) kit. Cross your fingers.


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## Ex-Dragoon (28 Jul 2005)

Not to mention that people deployed have priority on kit or at least they should over personnel in garrison.


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## sigtech (28 Jul 2005)

The way it should work

1) Deployed members Regular and Reserves
2) Reg force Field Units
3) Reg Force Garrison units
4) Then all other Reserve units

they way it works
1) Deployed ( as it should be)
2) People with Friends that are supply Techs
3) Reg Force Field units
4) Res units
5) Then get in line and hope

No I am not a new military member just tired of have supply techs treating items on there shelves like they own them.


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## Gramps (28 Jul 2005)

Hell, I cant even get a bloody pair of combat boot laces. Apparently they are out of stock here and have been for some time, they have no idea when they will have more in and looked at me like an idiot when I asked for them. I am now using the laces from my parade boots on my safety boots, whats up with that??


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## cbt arms sub tech (28 Jul 2005)

Occassionally I find, when you start to get questioned why your not paradeing on a regular basis or on field ex's, you let your NCM know they don't have boot laces available, so I can't go bare foot into the field....Once word gets to your sgt-mjr, the supply system would be sorted out....Just an opinion though, worked in Edmonton!


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## Acorn (28 Jul 2005)

cbt arms sub tech said:
			
		

> ......you let your NCM



Let your *what* know? 

Acorn


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## cbt arms sub tech (28 Jul 2005)

Sorry, let your troop warrant know or sgt?


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## Gramps (28 Jul 2005)

I am sure it worked in Edmonton with little or no problems but things are a little different (read f**&#ng strange) here in sunny old Greenwood. Besides Im going on leave for two weeks starting tomorrow so that should give them time to at least order some laces (yeah right).


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## Acorn (28 Jul 2005)

cbt arms sub tech said:
			
		

> Sorry, let your troop warrant know or sgt?



NCO would have done the trick.

Hint: Non-Commissioned Member (NCM) replaces "other ranks" (ORs) in the CF jargon. It does not replace NCO, JrNCO, Sr NCO or WO. 

Acorn


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## sigtech (29 Jul 2005)

Our Supply system is one sick puppy, especially base side Qm's. How sad is it that a NCM can't get a set of laces for his boots. I thought it was bad that I couldn't get gloves or new cadpad paints.


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## mover1 (29 Jul 2005)

As Gramps NCM I/C Shift Supr I will phone my buddy  (Sgt Supply Tech) or my wife (Pte Supply Tech) and get him some new laces.


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## mover1 (29 Jul 2005)

Gramps I phoned supply they don't have any laces and they are expecting their order in by next week. However the Sgt there is going through his scrap bin to get us some pre owned laces.

For the others.
 The lack of equipment I think is a result of our new standards. How many of the dinosaurs out there remember the days when you would go to supply hoping to get some second hand boots. "Please" you would say" don't let them be new" You wanted used ones because some other guy worked them in for you. 
Yesterday I turned in kit I didn't need. One of them was combat boots. Worn 4 times and they went to the scrap bin. AFV jacket and parrka with a worn zipper and winter whites, clean servicable and never worn. in the scrap bin.
We would have a lot more kit and a lot more money if we were not so picky or quick to scrap perfectly good equipmet.


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## Gramps (29 Jul 2005)

Thanks. I will check in when I get back from my leave. Cheers


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## sigtech (29 Jul 2005)

mover1 said:
			
		

> Gramps I phoned supply they don't have any laces and they are expecting their order in by next week. However the Sgt there is going through his scrap bin to get us some pre owned laces.
> 
> For the others.
> The lack of equipment I think is a result of our new standards. How many of the dinosaurs out there remember the days when you would go to supply hoping to get some second hand boots. "Please" you would say" don't let them be new" You wanted used ones because some other guy worked them in for you.
> ...



Great points I noticed they scap alot of items now that could be reissued. 
All in all like I said what gets me goat is when I see Res guys running around with the new kit and here I am sitting in the field supporting these men with a ruck that is falling apart and a 10 year old nuke bag. Res units should be put lower on the list unless they are working with Reg units. This would allow people that are working 365 days a year to have the kit they need.
I don't even like walking into supply, there isn't anything that uirksme more then some Pte with less then year in the forces looking at you like you have two heads when you ask for a small pack. 
suptech "You don't need that"
me "I don't need that oh, but I am going to the field and it would help alot"
suptech "Nope you are not entitled to that"
me "Oh I see Thanks Anyways"
suptech "Yep what ever"

I guess after 12 years in the forces I don't know what I need to be comfortable in the field and this young Pte who has never ssteppedfoot in the field other then Basic knows better then I.


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## DogOfWar (29 Jul 2005)

sigtech said:
			
		

> I see Res guys running around with the new kit and here I am sitting in the field supporting these men with a ruck that is falling apart and a 10 year old nuke bag. Res units should be put lower on the list unless they are working with Reg units.



Get over yourself. Everyone needs the kit- if you think you need something put it up your chain of command. The more gold on your shoulder the easier itis to get stuff from supply.


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## mover1 (29 Jul 2005)

OK this isn't going to digress into one of those Wheelers is the best kit money can buy thread. Its been done before. No one cares. Some people buy beer, some have hobbies some buy kit.

But your right. Some of the scales of issue seem a bit flawed. Some of them are antiquated and if you are getting the run around. Ask Questions. Take it up the chain of command. Or ask someone who is more superior than a private if he is right or not.

Supply is getting a lot of privates these days. And clothing has a high turn around of personnel. My wife who is a supply tech can tell you all the ins and outs of ordering airplane parts but wouldn't know the slightest about boots.  Some of the people are Miss informed or brand new. Have some patience and never take the first answer you get. Question it. BUT BE NICE. Actually ask the Civvy, he/she has been there a while and knows everything because hey are the constant entity of that office.

I turned in my AFV Jacket the private asked me what it was. He had never seen one. Didn't know it existed. And was perplexed on why there was such a thing. His inexperience and ignorance should not be confused with not wanting to get you and item of kit.


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## Acorn (29 Jul 2005)

Mover,

Your points about the system are well taken. It's not the Pte or Cpl behind the counter, or even the NCO i/c, it's the system that has been put in place. From what I know they are trying to use an "on demand" type system much like Wal Mart uses. Another cost saving measure that makes sure there isn't anything on the shelf when it's needed.



			
				mover1 said:
			
		

> As Gramps *NCM I/C * Shift Supr I will phone my buddy   (Sgt Supply Tech) or my wife (Pte Supply Tech) and get him some new laces.


Off topic, I know: so your job can be done by anyone Pte to CWO? Am I the only ne that really hates the mis-use of NCM?

Acorn


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## mover1 (29 Jul 2005)

I hate the word NCM to tell the truth. I worked hard to become an NCO only to become an NCM. I find the word member offensive. I am not a Member. Member to me implies a tubular organ, used to reproduce or urinate. Hell if the  1 st Canadian Air Division can stop calling itself 1 CAD because it doesn't like the dictionary reference to the word  CAD then I wont call myself a member. 

LETS ALL UNITE AND BRING BACK THE NCO'S WHO WORK IN THE CANADIAN ARMED FORCES IN EITHER THE ARMY, ROYAL CANADIAN NAVY OR THE ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE. 
Don't call me ethical or politically correct. My life has not been a rosy story that wastes print in the Maple Leaf . Let the UN do the peacekeeping. Not the Canadian ARMED Forces.  Lets wake the nation up. 
Where are the Sqn smokers.
 You want to talk about QOL we had QOL. Back in the days we could use an ML or a 5 ton and have your platoon move your furniture on a weekday. FOR BEER.

enough of  my ranting.

Gramps does work for me. I did phone supply. They did go in the scrap bin and we did get laces. 

The whole on demand saving money Wal Mart type of supply crap. Well the bin Rat local 911 and every supply tech I know is trying to stop that from happening. And to tell the truth. With all the legacy items going away and the new uniforms coming out. A lot of kit is irreplaceable because.

A) its being phased out and they don't make any more.
B) its being brought into the system and there isn't enough of it yet.
it sucks but its getting better


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## Jarnhamar (30 Jul 2005)

If it makes anyone feel better I have the new small pack, new cadpat gloves and new ballastic glasses.


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## Lost_Warrior (31 Jul 2005)

I remember one time going to the QM to get some boot paste for my gortex boots.  The Sgt behind the counter was sitting on a mountain of the stuff, but of course he had to give me a hard time.  I go up and ask for a couple of tins of boot paste and he asks what for.  I fealt like saying "because it makes good lubricant" from such a dumb question....what is boot paste normally used on..  :

Then he says, "well, if I give it to you, I have to give it to everyone" to which I reply, "isn't that the point?"

In the end, I got my 2 tins of boot paste, but not without the petty problems that come with it.

I think QM's get an award at the end of the year for whoever can hoard the most kit for themselves....


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## Teddy Ruxpin (31 Jul 2005)

That's why it's called "Stores"...they store things.

If they wanted to give stuff out, it would "Gives", wouldn't it...?

 ;D

Sorry, couldn't resist...


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## Acorn (1 Aug 2005)

Lost_Warrior said:
			
		

> Then he says, "well, if I give it to you, I have to give it to everyone"



You really expect us to believe that a storeman, in this day and age, actually said that? I've been in over 25 years, and have a few rag picker stories, but I've never heard that one (other than "a friend of a friend was in stores and they said...")

Acorn


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## tomahawk6 (1 Aug 2005)

Supply Sgt's love to trade.


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## FormerHorseGuard (2 Aug 2005)

I am shocked there is a supply system???? wow

when i was in the unit, i worked a full time call out on base toronto, ( that dates me , base toronto gone now) my reg force friends were going on course and  needed some stupid ass stuff, nothing too special,  fmp, protractors, and a few other things, the base would not give out or anything i ended up getting them from my unit was easier then fighting the bin rats on base.

Supply Techs personallly own r the kit, they  do not like to share it.  Just ask one
I had a roommate on base who was a supply tech, the things he bought home ( the barracks) at night would amaze you,  rayban sunglass, handcuffs, more uniforms then he could wear in a  week,  enough pens, pencils and paper to staff an office, and other stuff, he even had a tv signed for or so he said he signed for it.

if you make friends witha  bin rat and the right bin rat you are going to be kitted out to the max.


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## George Wallace (2 Aug 2005)

FormerHorseGuard said:
			
		

> Supply Techs personallly own r the kit, they   do not like to share it.   Just ask one
> I had a roommate on base who was a supply tech, the things he bought home ( the barracks) at night would amaze you,   rayban sunglass, handcuffs, more uniforms then he could wear in a   week,   enough pens, pencils and paper to staff an office, and other stuff, he even had a tv signed for or so he said he signed for it.
> 
> if you make friends witha   bin rat and the right bin rat you are going to be kitted out to the max.



So tell us....Who is this guy?



Inquiring minds would like to know.


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## Lost_Warrior (2 Aug 2005)

> You really expect us to believe that a storeman, in this day and age, actually said that? I've been in over 25 years, and have a few rag picker stories, but I've never heard that one (other than "a friend of a friend was in stores and they said...")



You never heard of that one?  Well now you have.


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## Acorn (3 Aug 2005)

I should say "I've never heard of that one first hand." I've been around the block a few times, and heard the stories that are passed on as truth. I've heard guys in since coffee break claim to have "been there" when some such legend occurred - never mind that I'd heard the same story 20 years previous.

You'll pardon my skepticism.

Oh, and for a rag picker story that is true:

PPCLI solider walks into clothing stores with a set of worn out combats for exchange. After demonstrating to the bin rat (a civvy, by the way) that the combats needed to be exchanged (no rips or holes, just could see through the ass of the trousers and back of the shirt - unsat for the CSM), they finally coughed up a set of combats. At the same time, down the counter, an Air Force tech was getting issued a set of combats, brand new in the wrapper. The Patricia got a used set.

The Patricia asked "why does he get new ones and I get used?"

Bin Rat reply: "because they don't wear them out as fast as you guys."

I couldn't think of anything to reply that wouldn't have got me charged.

Acorn


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## buzgo (3 Aug 2005)

You guys should try clothing stores at NDHQ. Thats an interesting place, lots of 'badass' privates. 

I went down to try and exchange my one size too big combat boots and was met with much scepticism. The private didn't seem to understand that I could be issued the wrong size boots due to kit shortages, and didn't want to issue me new boots. He finally relented, but the bad attitude that I got from this guy...


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## GO!!! (3 Aug 2005)

Saw one method of getting a satisfactory reaction out of supply.

Have one of your friends wait back at the lines beside a phone. When the bin rat gives you a hard time, pick up HIS phone, and call your bud back at the lines. The guy  in the lines, without ever clearly stating his rank or name, goes on a 2 minute tirade, gives the guy a solid jacking, and takes the bin rat's name, rank and svc number, right along with the classic WHO OWNS YOU??? 

End result?

No body lies, you get your kit, and he always wonders which CSM tore a strip off him. 

Saw it work once, and fail once.


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## mover1 (5 Aug 2005)

Heres one that happend to me. 

I walk up to the counter.
 Said Hi and smiled. 
made some light talk.
 told a joke.

Asked for a peice of kit. 
I was told no. 
I asked why.
Hey, wasn't entitled to it because it isn't on the scale of issue for my job.

Oh well I thought no real use for it any how.

Asked to exchange some pants. They gave me a used set. I asked for a new set because I wear them till they are totally useless  and I'm pretty hard on them.and I don't want to come back here in a week.

I smiled as I said this. And I was quite nice. So I got my new pants.

Hey isn't that easy. Stop demanding things. Be nice and ask questions. 

If you are a 011 or a 022 or something and you need a rcusack you will get one. HECK I belive they will order one in for you if you need it. But if you are a 011 or a 022 or something working in the museum or as the barrack warden. DONT ASK!!! YOU DON"T NEED IT.

And if you do think you need it and they don't give it to you . Take it up your chain. Because all this new kit is coming into the sytem don't get antsy because you need it now. There are plans on how this stuff is going to get to you. And supply is given odrders every day to recall kit and issue it to essential users only. 

So relax and if you don't like the system. Then re-muster to supply work your way up the chain and try to change it.  Or shop somewhere else.


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## Britney Spears (5 Aug 2005)

I always get a laugh out of reading people's complaints about the supply system because:

- There's probably about 5 pieces of kit in the whole CF issue system that's worth anything in the field.

- Three of them are new CTS items that offer 0 improvement over the old stuff.

"Waahh they won't give me a goretex jacket!"   You like being wet I suppose?

"Waah they won't give me CADPAT! (few month ago)" Right, because there are so many things that no hook militia ptes can't do unless they're wearing CADPAT. :

"Waahh they won't give me a TV and I'm stuck with webbing!"     

To this day I'm still using the old webbing and the old windpants, and I have pretty much every single thing ever issued in my basement. Really guys, there are so many other things that DO need people to complain about, save yer energy for the stuff that matters.

Actual conversation at clothing stores:

Britney: I would like to exchange this utility pouch for a C-9 ammunition pouch please.
Supply tech: That is a C-9 Pouch.
(10 minutes of describing a C-9 Pouch, drawing pictures, demonstrating that a C-9 drum cannot actually fit in the tily  pouch)
ST: Sorry, but in my 13 years of regular force service I've never seen this item which you have described.
B: I see...but, wait, there is one on that shelf over there! (points to one of several dozen in a distant shelf)
ST: Ahh, those, I can not issue you those pouches, as they are obsolete and unsafe.
B: Unsafe.
ST: Yes.
B: And why is that? Because I can carry ammo in it?
ST: The grenade wings are designed for an older type of grenade no longer used, if you attempted to use a newer grenade in it it may fall out and explode. If you already have one of these pouches you must return it immedietely.
(I could not tell, at this point, whether the ST outranked me or not, as he was not in uniform, but I certainly don't have 13 years of regular force service, so I decided not to press the "issue", so to speak, and deferred to his better judgement. QM at the unit will have to find me my pouches)
B: Very well, I would also like to exchange this rucksack bag. (holds up rucksack bag)
ST: What is a "Rucksack"? Do you mean a buttpack?

 :crybaby:


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## Spr.Earl (5 Aug 2005)

My bitch is I'm Army (Eng.) attached to a Air Force Unit in B.C. I try to get kit,I'm told I have too go and speak with Air Force about it and the Air Force gives me the same run around. :
So any one in Green watch when I'm around.


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## sigtech (5 Aug 2005)

So looks like the supply system is messed but is there anyway to fix it ?
Also Mover you said your wife and friend are both SupTechs in Greenwood where you are posted , I doubt you have any troubles getting items issued if they have them.

Is the Golden Rules of the CF to make 3 Friends 1 a SupTech 2 a Admin Clerk and 3 a MP.
1 get the kit you need
2 wow now that you have a admin clerk as a friend you paper work seams to get threw faster
3 and of course who really likes paying speeding tickets on the base

 >


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## mover1 (5 Aug 2005)

sigtech said:
			
		

> So looks like the supply system is messed but is there anyway to fix it ?
> Also Mover you said your wife and friend are both SupTechs in Greenwood where you are posted , I doubt you have any troubles getting items issued if they have them.
> 
> Is the Golden Rules of the CF to make 3 Friends 1 a SupTech 2 a Admin Clerk and 3 a MP.
> ...



Actually if I don't need them I don't ask for them. The scale of issue for my trade is pretty straight forward and there is no need for extras. Besides I am airforce what more do I need besides a jacket, safety boots work gloves and ear defenders.

In answer to your questions 3. remember you get more flies with honey.
1.. it doesn't hurt. At least when you ask a question you get a no crap answer and understand why you as an infanteer have no need for a flying suit.
2. If you saved your receipts and went though your claim before you went to the clerk. handed in a COMPLETED organised itinerary. Maybe you would have your claim done in 3-5 days like everyone else. Its done by computers now. It should take the same amount of time for everyone. Unless its a bulk claim.
3. No one likes paying a speeding ticket. You wouldn't have this problem if you SLOWED DOWN AND WENT THE F***ING SPEED LIMIT. ;D


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## aesop081 (5 Aug 2005)

mover1 said:
			
		

> 3. No one likes paying a speeding ticket. You wouldn't have this problem if you SLOWED DOWN AND WENT THE F***ING SPEED LIMIT. ;D



Sure would save the pain and suffering of being freids with an MP  ;D


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## GO!!! (5 Aug 2005)

mover1 said:
			
		

> In answer to your questions 3. remember you get more flies with honey.
> 1.. it doesn't hurt. At least when you ask a question you get a no crap answer and understand why you as an infanteer have no need for a flying suit.
> 2. If you saved your receipts and went though your claim before you went to the clerk. handed in a COMPLETED organised itinerary. Maybe you would have your claim done in 3-5 days like everyone else. Its done by computers now. It should take the same amount of time for everyone. Unless its a bulk claim.
> 3. No one likes paying a speeding ticket. You wouldn't have this problem if you SLOWED DOWN AND WENT THE F***ING SPEED LIMIT. ;D




Wow.

Thanks mom. 

Unfortunately, you seem to live in an unrealistic utopia - probably an air force base where the majority of people actually do their jobs on a daily basis. You also point out that you only need boots, gloves and ear defenders. Exactly. You have absolutely no concept of how difficult it is to do your job with broken kit, and then be told by someone who can't even identify it that it does not need to be replaced or issued.

And the supply system has been looking up recently - when 1 GS Bn was issued the new gore - tex bivy bags a few years back, but the field units were not - complaints were made, and the wogs were made to turn theirs back in, so that those who needed it could have them issued.

In addition to this, I find that dealing with bin rats is alot like dealing with children. You just have to be firm, polite, fair, and perservere. Never allow for the possibility that you might not get your issue or exchange. It is just a matter of ensuring that they do their jobs to your satisfaction.


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## aesop081 (5 Aug 2005)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> Wow.
> 
> Thanks mom.
> 
> Unfortunately, you seem to live in an unrealistic utopia - probably an air force base where the majority of people actually do their jobs on a daily basis.



I work on the same base as mover1 does and it is indeed an airforce base but it realy doesnt run as smoothly as you seem to beleive.  And as far as your comment on having no idea what its like to do a job with broken kit....let me tell you where you can shove that.  We have to deal with the same issues you do.  i have been issue unservicable kit, the wrong kit, and when i got issue my aircrew kit in gagetown, it was an uphill battle to explain to the bin rats there what the kit is and explain to them i realy do need it.  Here we have had to deal with the fact that the ONLY aproved flashlight for flying isnt in stock and try to conving thet supply guys that they realy need to hurry up and get some for us !!  I spent 11 years in the combat arms so i can tell you with absolute certainty that the army doesnt have the monopoly on supply problems and having to make due.  I see where you are comming from but get over yourself a little.


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## mover1 (5 Aug 2005)

Thanks AESOP. you were all over him like a Nav on a box lunch. Made me tear up a little.

I was on both sides of the fence. I used to be combat arms. I went to the woods with broken kit. Toughed it out. Got the T-shirt. 
Married a sup tech. Who works in the HPR cell. So I some of the reasons why nothing is in stock when its needed. 
I was issued sockes in Shilo but I cannot exchange them here because they are not on the issued kit list for the AF. The same with underwear and long johns. WE can't get Fleece and a lot of the cold weather under garments are for Aircrew only. So we did what we did before wear our pink civvie ones and move on.

Sorry I live in an unrealistic utopia. Where "a majority do their jobs on a daily baisis". WAIT . DOES THAT MEAN THE WE HAVE PROFESSIONALS IN OUR RANKS. 
As for teaching bin rats like children. I think you deserve some lessons in manners young man.


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## BITTER PPLCI CPL (7 Aug 2005)

I'm new to these forums, so pardon the attitude in my question. Why does the Air Force and non-combat arms units need cadpat Gore-tex rain gear? ???


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## aesop081 (7 Aug 2005)

BITTER PPCLI CPL said:
			
		

> I'm new to these forums, so pardon the attitude in my question. Why does the Air Force and non-combat arms units need cadpat Gore-tex rain gear? ???



because it rains in the airforce too........ :

The airforce ran its own program that had nothing to do with clothe-the-soldier and decided it wanted rain gear for the techs that wait in the rain to marshall us when we come back from flights.

The army followed CTS and got other stuff it felt had priority.

You have a problem with that...take it up with the CLS


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## Fishbone Jones (7 Aug 2005)

Both elements were running separate programs for raingear. Up top, in a rare burst of clarity, said that was a waste. They told them to work together to a common solution, which they did.


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## Britney Spears (7 Aug 2005)

My personal opinion is that in the last 20 years, the army is so use to being wet, that there's just no motivation to aquire any new rain gear. I don't know what I would do with myself if they ever gave me a waterproof rain jacket, something that quite frankly I never even dream about. Wouldn't that be some kind of RMA for the Cdn Army?


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## aesop081 (7 Aug 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> Wouldn't that be some kind of RMA for the Cdn Army?



I hope not...that would require doctrine changes, changes to the CTP of most combat arms trades, pubs would have to be re-writen.....


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## Roy Harding (7 Aug 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> My personal opinion is that in the last 20 years, the army is so use to being wet, that there's just no motivation to aquire any new rain gear. I don't know what I would do with myself if they ever gave me a waterproof rain jacket, something that quite frankly I never even dream about. Wouldn't that be some kind of RMA for the Cdn Army?



I recall having waterproof rain gear.  Unfortunately, that works TWO ways - the rain didn't get in, and the sweat didn't get out!!

Either way, you end up wet.

I'm not sure which wet is preferable.


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## 48Highlander (7 Aug 2005)

mover1 said:
			
		

> In answer to your questions 3. remember you get more flies with honey.
> 1.. it doesn't hurt. At least when you ask a question you get a no crap answer and understand why you as an infanteer have no need for a flying suit.
> 2. If you saved your receipts and went though your claim before you went to the clerk. handed in a COMPLETED organised itinerary. Maybe you would have your claim done in 3-5 days like everyone else. Its done by computers now. It should take the same amount of time for everyone. Unless its a bulk claim.
> 3. No one likes paying a speeding ticket. You wouldn't have this problem if you SLOWED DOWN AND WENT THE F***ING SPEED LIMIT. ;D



1.   When I went to get the new CADPAT uniform, I was told they didn't have any in my size.   Fair enough.   Went back three months later, now they have them in my size, but my unit's "window" has expired and they're issuing them to other units.   Wonderfull.   Went back 6 months later, they have the pants in my size, but not the shirt.   Awesome.   All in all, I think I was the last person in my brigade to get CADPAT.   Ended up teaching on courses where the GODDAMN RECRUITS had it, and I didn't.   Not to mention that, when I finally DID get it, they initialy turned me away because I, as a Class A reservist coming in on his own (unpaid) time had the audacity to not be cleanly shaven while in civvies.   I think the point about you being on an airforce base may have some truth to it.   Oh, and as a side note, once I started "seing" someone in the CQ on a base, kit magically started to appear.

2.   One year after ARC in meaford it took 6 months, 50+ inquiries with the unit clerks, and 2 trips to the Brigade HQ to get my TD pay.   In that time, the unit actually ended up DEDUCTING an advance I had taken against the claim earlier in the summer because - SURPRISE - my TD hadn't gone through yet and they wanted the money back.   More recently, this June I finally received 6 days of leave pay I tried to claim 10 months earler (and of which I reminded them on a monthly basis), as well as 16 days of pay that I got half a month late because the BOR "didn't realize" I had left for a tasking, even though they made up a route letter and travel claim for me before I left.   There's plenty more stories I could tell, but I think you get the gyst.

3.   Seing as on some bases you'll get pulled over for doing 46 in a 40 zone....well, "slow down" is still good advice, but knowing the MP's is deffinitely more helpful.




			
				Retired CC said:
			
		

> I recall having waterproof rain gear.   Unfortunately, that works TWO ways - the rain didn't get in, and the sweat didn't get out!!
> 
> Either way, you end up wet.
> 
> I'm not sure which wet is preferable.



I've always had waterproof raingear, and it's still the same problem.  What we need is breathable and waterproof raingear.  It sure would be nice if the CF would take those old OD bivvie-bags and turn them into stealth suits.


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## mover1 (7 Aug 2005)

Sorry you felt a bit Sesamie Street without your cadpat ( one of these things is not like the other ;D). . At least you stood out in the crowd.
sounds like you have a bad clerk. We have them here too. we just avoid them.
46 in a 40 zone. You have some whacked speed limits. And even more whacked MP's. if your story is true then I would have fought it.
I went from Cold Lake to Shilo. While there the Supply Officer asked me not to wear my Airforce Rain gear on base. 
Why? 
Because he didn't want 500 troops banging down his door for a set. 
The airforce does 90% of its maintence out doors. Or with the hanger doors open. I thought everything was done in a warm hangar too when I first made the switch. I was mistaken. Thats why the airforce had gone on its own for some clothing it just couldn't wait. And that rain gear is the BEST kit I have seen issued in a long time.

Just a question to those with horror stories. Are you doing the claims at base level or at unit level. Is it clothing stores and base supply you have troubles with, or your QM where its run by people your trade?


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## aesop081 (7 Aug 2005)

48Highlander said:
			
		

> I think the point about you being on an airforce base may have some truth to it.



Once again, baseless airforce bashing from someone who has seen military life from only one side of the coin.  If you cannot get over this army/airforce thing, message me, i will take you under my wing for a few weeks and show you that the army is not the be-all-end-all of military life.  If you think that the supply techs/clerks on an airforce base are any more "agreeable", you are saddly mistaken.


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## mover1 (7 Aug 2005)

Lets see. The supp techs have done their time in Pet Gagetown Halifax, etc . One of them is ex armoured. Another is ex infantry. One of them is a packer Rigger. The Master just came from Wainright. A few are off of the ship. One was posted to Calgary. The forms they fill out and the orders they follow are the same from base to base.
Most of the Clerks are re-musters or had a few postings to the ARMY as well. They follow national directives and use the same computer systems and programs here that they do in Edmonton.
There is no difference between Airforce and Army or Navy when it comes to service support. Please do not give me any of the Airforce gets it easier than the Army stuff. It just simply is not true. 
Everyday I look around here I see an Operational base. We have planes in the Arctic and we have planes overseas. People and units are deployed. Maybe its just because we are so busy and our service support are used to doing it on a regular basis. It has nothing to do with the Airforce being pampered heck we have the same personell that you do.
In fact some days its harder. A guy like me cant get any of the gucci stuff like AESOP can although I have no need for spandex flying gear. (friggin aircrew ;D)


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## Roy Harding (7 Aug 2005)

aesop081 said:
			
		

> Once again, baseless airforce bashing from someone who has seen military life from only one side of the coin.  If you cannot get over this army/airforce thing, message me, i will take you under my wing for a few weeks and show you that the army is not the be-all-end-all of military life.  If you think that the supply techs/clerks on an airforce base are any more "agreeable", you are saddly mistaken.



AESOP081:  

First you (perhaps justifiably) complain that people are indulging in "Airforce bashing".  Then, two sentences later, you bash two support trades!!  

Hardly a consistent postion.


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## mover1 (7 Aug 2005)

Retired CC said:
			
		

> AESOP081:
> 
> First you (perhaps justifiably) complain that people are indulging in "Airforce bashing".   Then, two sentences later, you bash two support trades!!
> 
> Hardly a consistent postion.



I think you missed the point, on that one. 
AESOP was trying to point out that just because we are on an AIRFORCE BASE/WING does not make the supply sytem any better than on an Army base. 
Other posters have given rebuttals on this subject and implied that the reason  we get things so easy and have better service is because we are posted to an Airforce Wing.
He wasn't bashing any trades just trying to point this fact out and showing pride in service by defending it From a few naysayers a couple of posts back . After all the the topic is the supply system and not an airforce/ army debate.

Read the entire thread again and you will see that he has a constant position and is maintaining.


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## aesop081 (7 Aug 2005)

mover1 said:
			
		

> I think you missed the point, on that one.
> AESOP was trying to point out that just because we are on an AIRFORCE BASE/WING does not make the supply sytem any better than on an Army base.
> Other posters have given rebuttals on this subject and implied that the reason   we get things so easy and have better service is because we are posted to an Airforce Wing.
> He wasn't bashing any trades just trying to point this fact out and showing pride in service by defending it From a few naysayers a couple of posts back . After all the the topic is the supply system and not an airforce/ army debate.
> ...



Quite correct, thanks mover1


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## GO!!! (7 Aug 2005)

aesop

The best example that I can think of to demonstrate the superior service one recieves on  an air force base would be the food. 

Now I'm sure that there is some sort of national "standard" for the cooks, which is probably met on most bases, most of the time. But having done a number courses in Trenton, and being posted to Edmonton, can you really say (with a straight face) that the service and quality encountered at the Trenton mess is the equivalent of the service and quality of the Edmonton mess?

Of course not. Troops in Edmonton de-link the minute they buy a bar fridge and a george foreman grille, and the courses I've done in Trenton have resulted in a moderate weight gain - for myself and all of the other army types who are continually astounded that a military mess can be that good!

The point is, why do you find it so hard to believe that there there could be differing levels of service available on different bases? Is the food example not sufficiently illustrative?


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## Roy Harding (7 Aug 2005)

mover1 said:
			
		

> I think you missed the point, on that one.
> AESOP was trying to point out that just because we are on an AIRFORCE BASE/WING does not make the supply sytem any better than on an Army base.
> Other posters have given rebuttals on this subject and implied that the reason  we get things so easy and have better service is because we are posted to an Airforce Wing.
> He wasn't bashing any trades just trying to point this fact out and showing pride in service by defending it From a few naysayers a couple of posts back . After all the the topic is the supply system and not an airforce/ army debate.
> ...



You're right - the entire thread is consistent in its' CSS tradesmen bashing.

Why don't you all take a deep breath, and realize that the poor CSS slob who doesn't have your gear in stock wishes he DID.  He did NOT specifically plan to ruin your whole day.  In fact - if you're dealing with someone at the front counter, the whole situation is WAY beyond his/her scope of influence.

I do agree that there are many shortcomings in CSS _systems_ - but I don't believe you should be pointing your fingers at the individual Pte, Cpl, MCpl, whatever, and saying (in effect)  "HE's the problem!!"

As far as the CSS jobs being the same from base to base, you're correct as far as you go.  The jobs are DISTINCTLY different, however, between a flying squadron, and a maneuver unit (or Svc Bn for that matter). 

It's not the fact that you guys are pissed at support _systems_ that caught my attention - for the most part I agree with you.  It was the continued harping on individual soldiers/airmen/sailors who are desparately trying to make a flawed system work for you that irritated me.

Per Ardua ad Astra


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## aesop081 (7 Aug 2005)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> aesop
> 
> The best example that I can think of to demonstrate the superior service one recieves on   an air force base would be the food.
> 
> ...



GO!!

I agree with you on the edmonton/trenton food situation.  I was posted to edmonton for 4 years and was not impressed with the food service there at all.  But the mess here where i am posted now is by far the worse one i have ever been to.  I agree with you that there are varying levels of service from base to base but where i stop agreeing with you is when you make it an airforce/army division.  Its not because that i am on an airforce base that i get better service anymore than its not because i am aircrew that i get better service than the maintainers. You find good CSS folks on every base the same way you find Good CSS folks on every base as well.....Alot of our CSS folks here come from the army BTW.


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## 48Highlander (7 Aug 2005)

You misunderstood, I wasn't bashing the airforce.

And, Retired CC, I wasn't bashing individual supply techs either, I know that most of the time the ones I deal with are usualy friendly and try to be helpful but are hampered by policy or an incompetent superior.

However, there is deffinitiely a lot that needs improving in the supply system at the ASU's and bases I've had to deal with.  There's also a lot of improvement that could be made in the selection proccess for, and evaluation of, clerks at the unit level, at least within the reserves.  The few times I've dealt with regforce clerks working on actual bases, my experiences have always been positive, so maybe it's not so bad outside of toon-land.

As for the airforce/army thing, once again, I wasn't trying to bash anyone, I was just pointing out what GO tried to explain in his last post - that different bases have different levels of service.  Not neccesarily because someone is trying to "pamper" the airforce types; more likely it's a problem within the supply system.  Maybe because an airforce member needs less individual pieces of kit, the clothing stores on airforce basis can aquire and stock more of it.  Maybe because your kit doesn't wear out as quickly as an infanteers, you get more use out of it, therefore exchanging less often and taking some strain off the supply system on your base.  I don't know exactly what the cause is, or even how the supply system works on the other side of that counter, but there has to be a reason why you've had mainly positive experiences whereas those of us who aren't airforce have had plenty of negative ones.


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## Roy Harding (7 Aug 2005)

48Highlander said:
			
		

> You misunderstood, I wasn't bashing the airforce.
> 
> And, Retired CC, I wasn't bashing individual supply techs either, I know that most of the time the ones I deal with are usualy friendly and try to be helpful but are hampered by policy or an incompetent superior.
> 
> ...



Fair 'nuff - point taken.

Perhaps I can shed some reasoned light on the subject.  My (now retired) wife was a Sup Tech.  She served with the Airforce (in Edmonton, back when it was an Airbase), 1 Svc Bn, 7 CFSD, and 1 GS Bn.  I got to hear about the problems of all the organizations she was in (and hear about it, and hear about it, and hear about it!  If any of you repeat this to her, I'll deny saying it!!  Uh - some idiot posted this and signed my name to it!).

Anyway - when she was on the Airbase, and when she was with 7 CFSD her ONLY job was Supply.  She was a soldier, yes, but her job in those places could have been done by a civvie (in fact one of her biggest complaints with 7 CFSD was having civvie "union Gods" as "supervisors".)

Now - when she was with 1 Svc Bn she was totally a field soldier - her platoon was not tasked with anything but supporting  1 CMBG field deployments.  When not deployed, she and her platoon TRAINED - basic "soldier" training, trades training, etcetera.

When she was posted to 1 GS Bn she was part of a unit that had a "split personality".  Members were tasked not only with support to what used to be known as "Base Functions" (which were static in nature), but were also tasked with "field functions" - providing deployable third line supply functions to LFWA, including 1 CMBG.  The resultant mess was predictable - she and her fellow GS Bn soldiers ran around like chickens with their heads cut off - attempting to provide "Base" functions (in her case - Clothing Stores), while at the same time having kit inspections, CO's marches, ranges, etcetera, etcetera.  There didn't seem to be any identifiable MISSION.  To be fair to GS Bn leadership, she was a Cpl and therefore not privy to the decisions being made higher up - but the result was confusion, poor service to the soldiers (which ripped her apart, by the way) and lackadaisical field training.  The whole mess contributed to her decision to pull the plug.

Now - peripheral to the above discussion - I was the Ops NCO in 1 Svc Bn when some genius came up with the idea for GS Bns.  I was involved in producing TO&Es, org charts, etcetera, etcetera.  I did NOT have any input into the organization, I merely assisted - but that involvement gave me a unique perspective on what GS Bns were conceived to be.  They were NOT conceived to be "field deployable" - and therefore the extra manning required to enable them to both conduct their PRIMARY mission of STATIC support to Army bases AND conduct "soldier training" was NOT built into them.  (Neither were the weapons, MSE, or other ancillary considerations).  
I don't know where/when/how 1 GS Bn (I cannot speak about 2 and 5 GS Bns, as I simply don't know) acquired a field deployable role.  I can attest to the fact, however, that it wasn't _supposed_ to have that role and wasn't manned for it (at least at inception).  I don't believe that their TO&E or REMAR was EVER changed to reflect the changing reality.  You are now all living with the result.

Having said all that - perhaps the (perceived?) difference in support between Airforce and Army bases has it's roots in the fact that Airforce base personnel, for the most part, don't have a concurrent role which, on a regular basis, takes them away from their primary trades function?

I dunno - I'm just a dumb ass retired CSS soldier.


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## BITTER PPLCI CPL (7 Aug 2005)

I know it rains in the air force too, however I did not notice that 17 wing was covered in CADPAT TW!


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## aesop081 (7 Aug 2005)

BITTER PPCLI CPL said:
			
		

> I know it rains in the air force too, however I did not notice that 17 wing was covered in CADPAT TW!



17 wing was finaly issued with all its CADPAT uniforms just before i left in Feb.  So now they dont have to wear the stupid blue work dress with the CADPAT rain coat.  Maybe if they are still in the blue coveralls though.

48highlander:

I've only been in the airforce for 2 years, so i am well aware of what its like on the army side.  I am well aware of the beating your kit takes, my combats in the army rarely survived an exercise unscathed, concertina and all.  You are totaly right, i have less kit than you do, no argument there.  The only peice of kit that i have that seems to take a beating are my flying gloves. I've been posted to Petawawa, Edmonton, Gagetown, Greenwood, spent time in Winnipeg, St-Jean and Chilliwack so i'm well aware that, from one base to another , the quality of service you get varies.  But i have been mostly on army bases so i know its not always bad and sometimes it can be worse on an airbase.


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## Greywolf (8 Aug 2005)

2 GS Battalion is going to merge with 2 Svc BN here in Petawawa next summer.  So it'll be just one big support unit.  I don't know how much things are going to change in reality though.


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## aesop081 (8 Aug 2005)

Greywolf said:
			
		

> 2 GS Battalion is going to merge with 2 Svc BN here in Petawawa next summer.   So it'll be just one big support unit.   I don't know how much things are going to change in reality though.



Just going back to the way it was when i joined.   Go figure !!


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## BITTER PPLCI CPL (8 Aug 2005)

When buddy said it can be worse outside at an airforce base, I couldn't help but think at some point they get TO GO INSIDE! However when it's raining and were doing section attacks all day, patrolling, the inside we see is that of a bivy bag. No matter how much the Air Force tries to justify why it need's Gore-tex cadpat rain gear, you'll never pursuade or convince the good ole' Canadian (reg force!) Infantryman you deserve it! Now before anyone say's that's enough on this subject, I'm not going to comment on this anymore.    ​


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## aesop081 (8 Aug 2005)

BITTER PPCLI CPL said:
			
		

> When buddy said it can be worse outside at an airforce base, I couldn't help but think at some point they get TO GO INSIDE! However when it's raining and were doing section attacks all day, patrolling, the inside we see is that of a bivy bag. No matter how much the Air Force tries to justify why it need's Gore-tex cadpat rain gear, you'll never pursuade or convince the good ole' Canadian (reg force!) Infantryman you deserve it! Now before anyone say's that's enough on this subject, I'm not going to comment on this anymore.    ​



Not the airforce's fault....the army decided it was going to be Tac vest now, rain gear later..........


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## Roy Harding (8 Aug 2005)

Greywolf said:
			
		

> 2 GS Battalion is going to merge with 2 Svc BN here in Petawawa next summer.  So it'll be just one big support unit.  I don't know how much things are going to change in reality though.



I've _HEARD_ (and cannot independently verify) that the same will be happenning with 1 Svc and 1 GS as well - I think one can assume that the abortions known as GS Bns may (finally) be on their way out.

This will ONLY solve the problem stated earlier if Bases (or ASUs - whatever you want to call them - the folks responsible for STATIC support to soldiers) have their own establishment, properly staffed, and don't rely upon the Svc Bns to provide those services.  This is EXACTLY the situation which existed PRIOR to the birth of the GS Bns, and which the GS Bns were originally _intended_ to fix.

Although I didn't go into it in my earlier post, my wife's Platoon when she was serving in 1 Svc Bn was lucky in that it wasn't "double hatted".  Services to CFB Calgary such as Base Tpt, Base Maint, Clothing Stores, etcetera were provided by personnel on strength of 1 Svc Bn.  Concurrent to her experience in Sup Coy, I was CC Tpt Coy of the same Battalion.  We had a separate Platoon (I do believe it was Charley Platoon - any old truckers out there feel free to correct me) which provided the Base Tpt function.  The folks in this Pl were not SUPPOSED to deploy to the field, and indeed C Pl never did.  HOWEVER, it was (sometimes) used as a "holding pl" for injured or otherwise non-deployable troops.  And when one of the other Pls was undermanned (for whatever reason) prior to a major exercise, C Pl was regularly stripped of its' deployable troops, with very little notice.

Another oft overlooked problem with this set up was personnel support to the troops on strength of C Pl.  When the Bde, and consequently the Bn, deployed the Coy OR went with them (complete)- The Ord Rm functioned as C/S 1 CP staff.  Who now supported the troops left behind in C Pl??  And don't forget - this was Base Tpt, these were drivers (military AND civvie) - MTECs, TD Claims, etcetera were a daily occurrence.  (Not to mention, C Pl was often, not always, manned with folks who were non-deployable for compassionate personal reasons - those soldiers who usually require the MOST administrative support).  During my tenure as CC, and undoubtedly during OTHER's tenure in the same post, arrangements were made - but these arrangements were always ad hoc and "field expedient" - they shouldn't have been.

There's no doubt in my mind that similar problems existed in Maint and Sup Coys - but I can't speak to those problems with anything resembling authority.

These problems existed because, unlike Air bases (and I assume Naval ones - although I don't know) which are staffed by people whose ONLY role is to fill that STATIC role and are on strength of an official unit (complete with a CFOO, REMAR and everything) called CFB SOMEWHERE.  The Army, for whatever misguided reason, decided that a field deployable unit (Svc Bn) could provide both STATIC (Base) functions AND deploy when required (at least in Calgary and Petawawa - can't speak for Valcartier).

I can't remember exactly what year 1 GS Bn stood up - but it would have been around '97, or '98.  As stated earlier, it was designed to address the problems I superficially outlined above.  It's now seven or eight years later (less than a DECADE!!!) and we (the collective we) have managed to screw it up.  Apparently, we are now dissolving them as they quickly devolved into the same "split personality" situation they were designed to alleviate!!!

Jesus Wept!!  The mind (at least mine) boggles!!!

Now - in fairness to our senior CF leadership, I am aware that the ASG/ASU concept has been growing up during the same time period the GS Bns have been in existence.  If those STATIC functions (Base Tpt, Base Maint, Clothing Stores, MSA, etcetera) are transferred lock, stock, and barrel to units (call them ASUs if you want - call them Bases if you want) which have their OWN CFOO, REMAR, Commander, etcetera, then it might work.  But DON'T place these STATIC functions under command of a gentlemen or lady who is ALSO responsible for providing deployable support to the manoeuvre units.  If you do, in less than a decades time you'll be able to use the "search" function on this forum and re-use these comments, because the situation will be EXACTLY the same.

As much as it hurts me personally to say this, I strongly recommend that the Army look at how the Air Force staffs their Bases vis a vis support functions - it seems to be something they nailed perfectly.  (Those of you personally acquainted with me should now take deep cleansing breaths - BREATH, dammit  - YES, "The CC" said something complimentary about the Air Force - and I do believe there may be a cold front rapidly moving towards Hell   )

Rant ends (for now).


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## aesop081 (8 Aug 2005)

Retired CC said:
			
		

> I've _HEARD_ (and cannot independently verify) that the same will be happenning with 1 Svc and 1 GS as well - I think one can assume that the abortions known as GS Bns may (finally) be on their way out.



My ex-wife is a bin rat at 1 GS and that is what she told me...GS BN is going the way of the dodo bird.


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## Fishbone Jones (8 Aug 2005)

Like I said on another thread, Things got lumped together for fiscal reasons. Not a bad thing. 

As to GS vs Svc Btn? If what I've seen from the Leaders, it won't work. I had a Capt, language speaker for Op Athena, working in CIMIC. I have no compunction of saying what I think here, because he sent out an email to members of the military, on the DNET. On this open email, he questioned my credibility, my command, decisions and my integrity. I didn't go home early, he did. From what I understand, he's now the LOG O for the RCD. Has a Aribic name. He hates Reservists, even though that's where he came from. He is toatally career orientated from the point he's not worried about where he's from but where he's going. Nor who he has to trash to make an impression, with the highers. Spent most of his time sucking ass and licking boots to the Maj.This is the type of idiot that sends orders to the guys at the desk. If a Private says "You can't have it", it's likely because an idiot like this Sup O that said "Don't fuck up my inventory...............and PER".


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## Roy Harding (8 Aug 2005)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Like I said on another thread, Things got lumped together for fiscal reasons. Not a bad thing.
> 
> As to GS vs Svc Btn? If what I've seen from the Leaders, it won't work. I had a Capt, language speaker for Op Athena, working in CIMIC. I have no compunction of saying what I think here, because he sent out an email to members of the military, on the DNET. On this open email, he questioned my credibility, my command, decisions and my integrity. I didn't go home early, he did. From what I understand, he's now the LOG O for the RCD. Has a Aribic name. He hates Reservists, even though that's where he came from. He is toatally career orientated from the point he's not worried about where he's from but where he's going. Nor who he has to trash to make an impression, with the highers. Spent most of his time sucking ass and licking boots to the Maj.This is the type of idiot that sends orders to the guys at the desk. If a Private says "You can't have it", it's likely because an idiot like this Sup O that said "Don't fuck up my inventory...............and PER".



There are jerks in every Branch, recceguy.  There are also outstanding leaders in every Branch/Corps.  Most fall somewhere in between, although I would say that during my time in - most seasoned (ie - not on their first engagement) leaders in the CF tended toward the upper end of that particular scale.

When I was serving in 1 Svc Bn, I came to the conclusion (and I still believe) that these Bns should be Commanded by a Cbt Arms LCol, assisted by a Cbt Arms RSM.  This would place the DCO, OCs,  and CSMs in a perhaps uncomfortable position at times, but would, I think tend to "focus" the Bn on _operations_ a bit more.


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## Fishbone Jones (9 Aug 2005)

Retired CC,

I agree 100%. We've got lot's of savvy Chiefs and Maj, in the Cbt Arms. For most, release is a medical and time thing. 

They are more than capable of moving over to something like a CSS job. It's not rocket science. Command of a Unit is the same, no matter what the Unit is. Your job is to ensure discipline and ensure the people under you do their job. Most RSM's and MWO's in th Cbt Arms have done the RQ, SQ or CQ jobs. It's just a little larger scale.

At least they'd know what's required for the Cbt Arms or Tac Av, and treat the soldiers accordingly.

I must admit though, in all my time, with an explanaition and some time spent on idle chit chat and pleasantries, I've yet to leave stores with less than I went for. Mostly, more than I went for.


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## Roy Harding (9 Aug 2005)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Retired CC,
> 
> I agree 100%. We've got lot's of savvy Chiefs and Maj, in the Cbt Arms. For most, release is a medical and time thing.
> 
> ...



I forgot to add Fd Ambs as another unit which should be commanded by Cbt Arms.



			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> I must admit though, in all my time, with an explanaition and some time spent on idle chit chat and pleasantries, I've yet to leave stores with less than I went for. Mostly, more than I went for.



My experience as well - even BEFORE I started sleeping with a Sup Tech!!


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## sigtech (9 Aug 2005)

Retired CC said:
			
		

> There are jerks in every Branch, recceguy.   There are also outstanding leaders in every Branch/Corps.



I posted this not to bash sup techs but the system they work in.......
Yes there are jerks in all trades and branchs
I find there are sup techs that are great (mostly if there are at a unit not base side) you walk in and hey insert name here how are things what do you need?
then there are jerks , why do you need that ,why should I give you that
Then like in all trades the guys that are by the book and would never leave that. Your unit isn't intitled to that so no matter what you need you can't have it.

My point is this the supply system is flawed and needs to be fixed , how do we do this from the lower end ? I don't know and can it be done ? again I don't know


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## Eowyn (9 Aug 2005)

Retired CC said:
			
		

> When I was serving in 1 Svc Bn, I came to the conclusion (and I still believe) that these Bns should be Commanded by a Cbt Arms LCol, assisted by a Cbt Arms RSM.   This would place the DCO, OCs,   and CSMs in a perhaps uncomfortable position at times, but would, I think tend to "focus" the Bn on _operations_ a bit more.



My only concern with a Cbt Arms LCol commanding the Svc Bn is the Svc Bn CO is supposed to be (IIRC) the CSS advisor to the Brigade Commander.  My opinion is that CSS is easy to pick up but hard to master.


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## Roy Harding (9 Aug 2005)

Eowyn said:
			
		

> My only concern with a Cbt Arms LCol commanding the Svc Bn is the Svc Bn CO is supposed to be (IIRC) the CSS advisor to the Brigade Commander.   My opinion is that CSS is easy to pick up but hard to master.



CSS advisor may be one of the roles picked up over the years - but if that's the case, why bother having all those G4 wizards in Bde HQ?

You're right about "hard to master" - but CO's in Svc Bn's aren't practicing "mastery" at anything except Commanding troops.  The same goes, to some extent, for the OCs of the functional Coys.


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## Edward Campbell (9 Aug 2005)

Many moons ago the CSS advisers to brigade, division and corps commanders were the ordnance, supply & transport and maintenance, etc company, battalion and, sometimes even brigade (equivalent) commanders.   The administrative and logistics staff officers (then referred to as A and Q staff officers (for Adjutant General and Quartermaster General)) were, almost always arms officers who had graduated from the staff college.   Thus the S4 of a brigade group (of 6,500 soldiers) was a major, likely infantry, armoured, artillery, engineers or signals - almost never, ever ordnance or service corps or RCEME.   The BRASCO, for example, (Brigade Army Service Corps Officer) was the S&T 'adviser' to the brigadier but he was very chary about using his access to disagree with the DAA&QMG (the ultra-impressive abbreviation for the S4's title) because the S4 might, usually was, 'pushing' the truckers and maintainers and all and sundry to (but rarely beyond) the safe limits in order to effectuate the brigade commander's plan.   (One could, usually, be reasonable certain that if the RCASC truck drivers were being asked (told) to work to or just past the 'limits' then the infantry and tankers had already been doing that for a day or two.)

I would agree that a combat arms officer could command a service battalion but I would rather that:

"¢	The Log and EME branches were merged and the officers were retrained to be much more _generalist_ - with a strong _operations support_ ethic;

"¢	The overall number of the new, merged (EME/Log) branch officer was substantially reduced, with a concomitant increase in the number of MWOs to command platoons in CSS units (but not to command the Logistics and Maintenance platoons in e.g. the infantry battalions - that should remain a (new) Logistics officer function, for education and training if nothing else);

"¢	CSS (or whatever) battalions should be commanded by the (new) CSS officers; but

"¢	Logistic (J4/G4/S4) staff officers should, normally (not exclusively), be _operators_ (pilots, gunners, engineers, infantry officers, etc).

Somewhat off topic but I have one exception to this: I believe that tactical SIGINT, tactical intelligence and some (unspecified by me - due to ignorance) recce JSTARS type operations should be grouped (not merged) into a single unit at brigade level (with detachable, composite sub-units) and these units (and sub units) should be commanded by arms officers (including signals and intelligence in that mix, for this purpose, as they used to be) with platoons being commanded by specialist officers - signals, intelligence, etc.


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## Roy Harding (10 Aug 2005)

Edward Campbell said:
			
		

> Many moons ago the CSS advisers to brigade, division and corps commanders were the ordnance, supply & transport and maintenance, etc company, battalion and, sometimes even brigade (equivalent) commanders.  The administrative and logistics staff officers (then referred to as A and Q staff officers (for Adjutant General and Quartermaster General)) were, almost always arms officers who had graduated from the staff college.  Thus the S4 of a brigade group (of 6,500 soldiers) was a major, likely infantry, armoured, artillery, engineers or signals - almost never, ever ordnance or service corps or RCEME.  The BRASCO, for example, (Brigade Army Service Corps Officer) was the S&T 'adviser' to the brigadier but he was very chary about using his access to disagree with the DAA&QMG (the ultra-impressive abbreviation for the S4's title) because the S4 might, usually was, 'pushing' the truckers and maintainers and all and sundry to (but rarely beyond) the safe limits in order to effectuate the brigade commander's plan.  (One could, usually, be reasonable certain that if the RCASC truck drivers were being asked (told) to work to or just past the 'limits' then the infantry and tankers had already been doing that for a day or two.)
> 
> I would agree that a combat arms officer could command a service battalion but I would rather that:
> 
> ...



Thanks for the reminder of the Staff system as it existed in the early part of my career - I had forgotten some of it.

I am in general agreement with your suggestion(s), with the following exceptions:

(1)  I believe that the present specialties (Tpt, Sup, Fin, Maint, etc) must be retained in SOME form.  I think there is a need for these specialists to act as advisors to the staff, as well as directing/supervising work by the associated NCM functions at the "coal face" (Jr Offr - Maj level).  Perhaps a career stream for these officers, accompanied by appropriate training, naturally, which would see these specialists become your proposed "CSS Generalists" at, say, the LCol rank?  (Similar to the practice of Rad Ops/Tel Ops becoming Comm Ops at the WO level); and

(2)  Leaving aside the issue of "CSS Generalists" for the moment, I fail to see why it is desirable to have "operators" fill the various "CSS" staff positions, but NOT command the CSS Support Unit, and vice versa.  There seems to be a contradiction there, unless I missed some subtlety.

Regards,

Retired CC


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## Edward Campbell (11 Aug 2005)

The G1 and G4 staff work - planning for the use of and allocation of CSS resources â â€œ is part of the *commander's* planning process; the output forms the basis for the *commander's** orders to his own CSS units.  The actual staff work (remember, please, the primary duties of the staff are to relieve the commander of the details of command and to help units execute their tasks) is part of the commander's battle procedure.

The G1 and G4 staff work needs to be accomplished by officers who are operational specialists.  The actual execution of the assigned CSS tasks should be left in the hands of skilled, operationally oriented CSS officers.

In my experience few, way too few CSS officers have a well defined sense of how logistics drives operations â â€œ despite the efforts of the staff college.  Equally, but easier rectified, I think, too few arms officers understand the intricacies of the logistics business.  The staff college can and should rectify the latter failure.  A look, a fair few years back I hasten to admit, at the Toronto staff college programme left me depressed: way to much Ottawa oriented governmental bumph, way too little Joint operational logistics analysis and planning.  There has to be some Ottawa oriented drivel (10% seems reasonable because so many, many graduates will â â€œ within five years â â€œ end up in NDHQ) but the balance needs to be weighted more heavily (than it was in any event) in favour of joint operations management which is, very largely, a study of how to manage logistics.  (Oh well, that's another rant.)

In my (time expired, I know) experience there is too little time for CSS officers to learn enough to be effective operational staff officers in the G1 and G4 branches â â€œ even with many field postings and staff colleges.  Arms officers can â â€œ and should â â€œ be taught logistics planning, in detail, at almost every step on their career path.  (An infantry or armoured lieutenant who does not know how a DP works is an amateur.)  Operational planning (and G1 and G4 staff work is just that) is done by operational (arms) officers; the execution of the CSS tasks is the domain of the CSS officers and their CSS soldiers â â€œ and they are, all, soldiers.

Hope that explains my opinion.  
*


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## Edward Campbell (11 Aug 2005)

Retired CC said:
			
		

> ...
> (1)  I believe that the present specialties (Tpt, Sup, Fin, Maint, etc) must be retained in SOME form.  I think there is a need for these specialists to act as advisors to the staff, as well as directing/supervising work by the associated NCM functions at the "coal face" (Jr Offr - Maj level).  Perhaps a career stream for these officers, accompanied by appropriate training, naturally, which would see these specialists become your proposed "CSS Generalists" at, say, the LCol rank?  (Similar to the practice of Rad Ops/Tel Ops becoming Comm Ops at the WO level); and
> ...
> Regards,
> ...



That's a weakness in my proposal; I'm thinking on that.

My initial argument would be that others armies - especially the Europeans, seem to manage.  The Germans, circa 1940, had a wonderfully well _managed_ logistics system â â€œ planned by _operators_ and 'driven' by, largely, specialist NCOs working under generalist officers.


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## sigtech (11 Aug 2005)

wow these posts really take a life and direction of there own don't they


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## Roy Harding (11 Aug 2005)

sigtech said:
			
		

> wow these posts really take a life and direction of there own don't they



Yeah - ain't it great!!


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## Gunner98 (11 Aug 2005)

Retired CC said:
			
		

> I forgot to add Fd Ambs as another unit which should be commanded by Cbt Arms.



Retired CC - your wish is a reality...Many Fd Ambs and even the Fd Hosp have and/or will be commanded by former Cbt Arms officers, who took OT and are now HSOs.   19 Aug 05 will mark a former RCR taking over the Fd Hosp and his DCO is a former Arty Offr.   Another former Inf Offr is the CO at 1 Fd Amb now.

BGen Devlin was formerly a COS of the former CFMGHQ.     There was even speculation that the last change of CFHS command might have been to a Cbt Arms-type, not so this time.


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## Roy Harding (11 Aug 2005)

Gunner98 said:
			
		

> Retired CC - your wish is a reality...Many Fd Ambs and even the Fd Hosp have and/or will be commanded by former Cbt Arms officers, who took OT and are now HSOs.  19 Aug 05 will mark a former RCR taking over the Fd Hosp and his DCO is a former Arty Offr.  Another former Inf Offr is the CO at 1 Fd Amb now.
> 
> BGen Devlin was formerly a COS of the former CFMGHQ.   There was even speculation that the last change of CFHS command might have been to a Cbt Arms-type, not so this time.



Outstanding.

However (there's always a damned "but", with me, isn't there!?): although these appointments may actually provide "living proof" of the concept, they have occurred through happy happenstance, not deliberate design.

I'd be interested to know if their respective units become more "operationally" focused, and if they (the former Cbt Arms officers themselves) are afforded more credibility by their Cbt Arms peers and superiors.  I'd also be curious what the men under their command noticed regarding the focus of effort - if anything.

Thanks for letting me know this, Gunner98.


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## Gunner98 (11 Aug 2005)

Two of these former Cbt Arms officers have served very well as DCO of Roto 0 and Roto 3 HSS Coy in the 'ghan.  The Roto 3 gent was DCO of 2 Fd Amb before tour and will inherit command of the Fd Hosp upon his return.

Unfortunately their excellent operational focus can be smothered by those higher without the same background.

Once we clean up our cbt arms dialogue/language, stop running the cellulite of the soldier's butts and learn to bite our tongue, lips and of course, breathe deeply to hold our chuckles, etc.  We provide instant credibility (in most cases) to the HSS units because we are recognized by our former peers still trudging in the mud to our front.


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## Roy Harding (12 Aug 2005)

Gunner98 said:
			
		

> Two of these former Cbt Arms officers have served very well as DCO of Roto 0 and Roto 3 HSS Coy in the 'ghan.  The Roto 3 gent was DCO of 2 Fd Amb before tour and will inherit command of the Fd Hosp upon his return.
> 
> Unfortunately their excellent operational focus can be smothered by those higher without the same background.
> 
> Once we clean up our cbt arms dialogue/language, stop running the cellulite of the soldier's butts and learn to bite our tongue, lips and of course, breathe deeply to hold our chuckles, etc.  We provide instant credibility (in most cases) to the HSS units because we are recognized by our former peers still trudging in the mud to our front.



"Unfortunately their excellent operational focus can be smothered by those higher without the same background."

I think you may have just proved my point.  

If "those higher" had the same background, they would be less likely to "smother" "excellent operational focus".  Perhaps a partial solution is to have ALL CSS officers be Cbt Arms for an amount of time prior to specializing?  (Actually, this is related to my long held belief that all SOLDIERS should be required to be Cbt Arms for their initial engagement, THEN branch off to CS/CSS trades)

I'm agreeing with you Gunner98 - your post above regarding how effective these folks were/are in command positions is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.  I would take the concept one step further and cause this happy outcome to be systemic, rather than subject to random chance.

(And when *I'm* the CDS ... ) !!!  ;D


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## Gunner98 (12 Aug 2005)

When APS is finished this year 1 Cdn Fd Hosp will have a pretty good balance:
CO - RCR 10+yrs, now HSO
DCO - Gunner Offr 10+ yrs
OC Evac - Gunner Offr- 14+ yrs
OC HQ - Sig Op - ROTP, now HSO
OC Tmt - Nursing Offr - 10 yrs
OC HQ - Log O 10+ yrs (still Log O)
RSM - Dent Tech

HCA has taken more than 30 Cbt Arms Offrs in the past 7 years as OT.  It has given the branch some good grass roots building blocks.  The Guns permitted 37 offrs to OT during the period 98-02.  Those gaps have now been filled in the gun parks by former AIG, MWO, CWO.


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## Roy Harding (12 Aug 2005)

Gunner98 said:
			
		

> When APS is finished this year 1 Cdn Fd Hosp will have a pretty good balance:
> CO - RCR 10+yrs, now HSO
> DCO - Gunner Offr 10+ yrs
> OC Evac - Gunner Offr- 14+ yrs
> ...



Yes, Sir - I understand what you're saying - Health Services is lead by many former Cbt Arms Offrs & NCOs who are no doubt doing and outstanding job.

Do you think this trend should be "enforced" by the system??


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## Edward Campbell (12 Aug 2005)

Retired CC said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> (1)   I believe that the present specialties (Tpt, Sup, Fin, Maint, etc) must be retained in SOME form.   I think there is a need for these specialists to act as advisors to the staff, as well as directing/supervising work by the associated NCM functions at the "coal face" (Jr Offr - Maj level).
> ...



You'll forgive me, I hope, another gallop down _history lane_ but I think it is important to revisit the whys and wherefores of arms (and later service) advisers.

Until the mid 19th century military operations, especially British military operations, might be (very loosely) divided into two categories:

"¢	Amateur; and

"¢	Professional.

The _professional_ army consisted, in the main, of a few fortresses manned, mainly, by artillery batteries and a few _household_ or _body-guard_ units - now the Brigade of Guards, some engineers and some ordnance/armourer type folks.  The bulk of the army was in _private_ hands - owned, literally by various dukes and barons and by e.g. the East India Company.  It needs to be emphasized that the Royal Navy was quite different - it was totally _professional_, including its Marines, and the dockyards at e.g. Chatham.

Most of the _combat arms_ were in the _amateur_ category.  It was considered that the average country gentleman could master the necessary skills for leading a company, regiment or even brigade in combat before the age of 15.  Those skills were very much learned on the _playing fields of Eton_, etc.  They involved toughness, discipline, loyalty and courage.  The business of battlefield manoeuvre had been codified by Fredrick the Great and the _book_ would, early in the 19th century, be heavily revised by the Duke of Wellington (who would address the main issue which eluded Fredrick and Napoleon: how to get every musket into the fight, at the decisive time and place).  The _business_ was not overly complicated except for three factors:

"¢	Where to place the guns;

"¢	How to supply the army - especially the guns;

"¢	How to build fortifications and, especially, roads and bridges to allow the army and its supply train, to deploy and manoeuvre.

A digression: logistics, until the end of the 19th century, was handled, for Britain, by something akin to today's _alternate service delivery_; it was _contracted out_ to a mix of private contractors and the precursor of today's Union of National Defence Employees - the army commissariat department and the Royal Wagon Train which, gradually, over the entire 19th century _morphed_ from civil service (Treasure Department) to uniformed army corps.  (See, also:  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33346.0.html The UNDE thread here on army.ca.  Maybe Gen. Hiller wants to go _back to the future_.)

Commanders, great ones like Wellington, and dunderheads like Raglan alike, were, generally, adequately served by their _global_ logistics tail which was, in itself, a marvel of foresight and organization and, equally, often corrupt and inept in execution.

Given that there was little that commanders could do to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of their logistics services they had little need for _advice_ on how to employ that tail - they just needed to know that it was there, working under its own standards and policies.

Artillery and the vexing problem of dumping artillery ammunition was another matter: commanders did have to make this work for themselves.  The 19th century was full of shrugged shoulders and raised palms and _explanations_ like "the road (or bridge) collapsed under the weight of my ammunition wagons; that's why the guns never fired to support your attack!"  Commanders did need advice from their _professional_ artillery and engineer officers re: what orders to give to whom in order to get the support which these specialist corps could provide.  It was then that the idea of the _arms advisor_ was born.  It grew in the late 19th and early 20th centuries as technology - especially telegraphy, then aviation and finally radio - joined the army.  Technology and _professional_ procedures now began to restrict commanders.  They (commanders) learned that it was counter-productive to try to push the specialists (now called the supporting arms) _out of their lanes_; it was easier, better, more effective to seek and take their advice.

World War II saw logistics come into its own.  It is important to understand that modern military logistics (and in some respects modern industry and the 21st century _managed_ industrial society) was nurtured by a bunch of German, British and American army engineers.  We tend to think of supply, transport and maintenance as one (or two or three) fairly independent functions but they are, generally, _managed_ as major _engineering_ endeavours - fuel, for example flows through pipelines and seaports etc before it finds its way, as if by magic, into a bowser or some jerry cans .  Similarly, _supply_ begins at the factory (maybe at the mine) and the _things_ soldiers need must be designed, built, tested, purchased, warehoused, and moved over rail networks, etc.  It is, all-in-all, a highly _organized_ or _engineered_ enterprise.  Hence the domination of the Quartermaster General's staff by RE and RCE officers (in Britain and Canada, respectively) for most of the 20th century.  

Modern mechanized battle meant that commanders had, finally, to _manage_ logistics, too.  Many were not up to the task.  They needed on the spot advice and the RCOC, RCASC and RCEME officers were given the same _advisor_ status previously reserved for artillery, engineer, signals, aviation and medical specialists.

It seems to me that, at least about 20 years ago, because we did not have separate special staffs, we retained arms and service advisors, but:

"¢	The gunners are no longer _advisers_ - they are an integral part of the command team at unit and formation level because the fire plan, the manoeuvre plan and the _battle_ plan were so tightly integrated.  I'm prepared to concede that this changes when we enter low intensity combat operations where we have little, maybe no artillery;

"¢	Engineer _advice_ was and remains absolutely essential because combat engineering is still a fairly narrow _ speciality_ which is inadequately understood by most other people;

"¢	Signals is _morphing_ away from being a speciality and towards extinction.  Tactical (mobile) command and control systems (of which the signal system is just one subset) must still be designed by specialist engineers around radio networks (if it's mobile it needs radio, by definition) but it is not clear - not to me anyway - that we need specialist Signals officers and soldiers to install operate and maintain it.  _*(Maybe to install and maintain but not to operate - I suggest that almost all Signals people in the army, in the field, could be replaced by (trained) arms officers, NCOs and men without any significant loss of command and control system effectiveness.)*_*  That being said the fellow responsible for the operation and maintenance of the command and control system must still be an advisor to the commander;

"¢	Aviation is still a specialized function and the aviation commander must also be an advisor to the commander; and

"¢	Ditto medical.

On the other hand we do have a separate specialist CSS staff: the G1 and G4 branches.  They - the G1 and G4 staff officers can seek technical details from the CSS officers and warrant officers in CSS units   and then the G1 and G4 can advise the commander.

Thus, without a shred of apology for all those words: I believe we can dispense with the service advisor function.

  



*


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## Roy Harding (12 Aug 2005)

Edward Campbell said:
			
		

> You'll forgive me, I hope, another gallop down _history lane_ but I think it is important to revisit the whys and wherefores of arms (and later service) advisers.



Edward:

Not only do I "forgive" you - I _encourage_ you!

And, should anyone else (aside from Mike, I mean) not be so inclined, then, to use the vernacular, "f**k 'em", I say!!

Anyway - I've only time to give your post the most cursory skimming at the moment, and to craft this smartass answer.  I will give your post the concentrated attention it deserves over the weekend, and post my non-"smartass" remarks then.

Regards.


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## Gunner98 (13 Aug 2005)

Retired CC said:
			
		

> Yes, Sir - I understand what you're saying - Health Services is lead by many former Cbt Arms Offrs & NCOs who are no doubt doing and outstanding job.
> 
> Do you think this trend should be "enforced" by the system??



IMHO, yes the trend should be enforced. The other half of the equation is the way it used to be and that was that Med Admin and Dental Admin Offrs came from the ranks or were retreads who were injured in the early stages of Phase Trg (Cbt Arms).  The proven Med/Dent Techs who reached Sgt-MWO were then CFR.  Their experience with the combat arms on patrols, deployments etc., gave them credibility.  Our current DComd Col Dave was a Sgt MedA who CFR.

The reality for our Branch, we currently have four physicians at the top DGHS, Surg Gen, D Health Ops, D Med Pol.  They have outstanding credentials and experience serving as unit COs, Base/Bde/Area/Fmn/TFK Surgs and CDLS positions.  

The challenge has been to provide them with the balanced "pointy end" perspective, therefore we have brought Naval, Air Foce (Pilots), and Inf senior officers in to fill the COS and Director positions.  Despite taking the senior offr training in Rome, Toronto etc., our internal developed Med/Dent Branch Offrs do not always get real credibility-building leadership and command experience.

We have not always succeeded at growing your own credibility and experience, and had to rely on the adage "beg, borrow and steal."  Building credibility from the ground up through CAP, Bde staff appointments and cross functional trg/postings/experience is the way to go, it gives you the perspective required to work in synch with the "boots and treads" on the ground, the "hulls in the water" and the "wings and blades" in the air.


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## sigtech (17 Aug 2005)

well this has gotten compleatly off topic!!!!

This thread was to discuss how and why members can or can not get the correct kit and how someone can fix or try and fix the flawed system


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## mover1 (17 Aug 2005)

This topic has been suckified by "how the forces should run" group.
In Lahr these guys would bee seen at 2100 in the Centenial Club  on a Friday in their CF's wondering why they were still Cpls and how "things would be different if I was in charge" (usually at the "regulars" table)

Oh well. 

GRAMPS nice to see you got them new laces you needed.


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## Roy Harding (17 Aug 2005)

mover1 said:
			
		

> This topic has been suckified by "how the forces should run" group.
> In Lahr these guys would bee seen at 2100 in the Centenial Club   on a Friday in their CF's wondering why they were still Cpls and how "things would be different if I was in charge" (usually at the "regulars" table)
> 
> Oh well.
> ...



Let's see - somewhere around 7 August this thread began to go off-topic.

Between 7 and 12 August there was some lively discussion (off-topic, I agree).

It's now 17 August (10 days after the last on-topic post), nothing else has been added (on OR off topic) for 5 days, you, apparently have nothing to add, except to whine about it being off topic!

You'd better check the profiles of those who "would have been Cpls" in Lahr.  Seems you may be referring to a retired Sr Offr, a retired WO, and a serving Sr Offr - we probably wouldn't be welcome in the "Cpl's Club".

Now I've added a reply to your non-topically whine, taking us even further off topic!

However, you are essentially (if belated) correct regarding being off-topic.  D'ya think perhaps that is why nothing has been added for 5 days??


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## mover1 (18 Aug 2005)

Your right. I did whine, on a blog spot where topics four years old get resurrected regularly. 
I should have checked in while I was on vacation so i could have kept current and up to date on all posts. 

I don't regularly check profiles.  Nor do I feel the need to. To me you are just a name.
my comments were directed to  sigtech.

SIR


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## sigtech (18 Aug 2005)

no worries mover1 and Roy take a chill, if you saw I also mentioned this was getting off topic long ago.
If you want to discuss how things are run and who should be in charge here is a idea start you own thread. i hate when people on here get all bent out of shape like it is a personal attack on them.
chill man


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## mover1 (18 Aug 2005)

Im frosty. 
And I to get back on topic there are a few supp techs out there that are trying to change the system. 

For example. 
Did you know if an Item is not used for 4 years it is taken off the lists in Ottawa. My wife who works in supply was trying to get some screws for an Aircraft Window. The  order was for 4 of them. The last time they were ordered was over 4 years ago ( the order was for 100 of them) These lasted a long time. The problem was that recently the sytem ran out. And because of the time laps, hard to get.

So she in her wisdom brought this up and trying to come up with a system that 
a. keeps enough in stock
b. still gets ordered regularly as to not be stricken from the system


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## Bin-Rat (18 Aug 2005)

mover1 said:
			
		

> So she in her wisdom brought this up and trying to come up with a system that
> a. keeps enough in stock
> b. still gets ordered regularly as to not be stricken from the system



the only one way I can think of is to change thier max and mins to a lower value..  so if they are on a SSS account, and have a max of like 100 and min is 20 they should change to like 10 and 25, this will or should make sure that when they got to 10 they are re-ordered...
so having a high max min is bad, and can result in situations that she now faces....


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## sigtech (19 Aug 2005)

So the other day I am heading out to the field and I see a one of the bin-rats that told me I wasn't entitled to a small-pack wear one. 
I over hear him tell his buddy ya I had to grab one they are great for PT.
isn't that lovly


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## reccecrewman (2 Sep 2005)

Our supply system has always been like this.  I've been waiting to get a new pair of contact gloves (my size) for over 2 years.  Every time I go to base clothing, they're out of stock.  It sucks but you learn to deal with it.  It all comes down to lack of money, and as stated earlier, troops on deployment have (should) priority over garrison troops.  Mind you, even overseas, they have their problems.  We had an AZ/EL from one of our Coyotes break and it took over 3 weeks to get it back into service because there are no spare AZ/EL's in the system and we had to wait for a chip to be delivered from Canada to get it back working again


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## sigtech (30 Sep 2005)

I have to give the Air Force there dues, at least they just went and bought everything all at once. Where does this come from , I go to turn in my Combat Jacket and I can't. Why no sizes they don't make the green ones anymore, Can I get the Cad on well i am entitled but this base doesn't have them for Army and don't know when they are going to get them , guess it is going to be a cold winter lol.


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## reccecrewman (2 Oct 2005)

"Clothe the Soldier"? More like "Tease the Soldier"  They show you gucci kit, but won't actually give it to you.  But this isn't my real beef, we don't have the money, we don't have the money.................. But in Petawawa, we have a few tyrannical civvies behind the counter who won't give the kit they DO have - theres a big problem.  For the life of me, I don't understand this............... They have no rank, they're NOT in the CF and yet they still act as if this is their kit!  One of the most frustrating things in the world is trying to explain to a civvy in a supply depot why you need to exchange kit, when they don't even know what it's for! All they know is they have it, and they ain't givin' it.


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## sigtech (3 Oct 2005)

Hey that is every base, can't remember his name but the civie in Gagetown was horrable. If we don't have the money how does the Air Force find the money just to go out and in one swoop buy all the ICE system. Again got to give them there dues , they just did it and all there troops are equipt with the kit they need


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## mover1 (3 Oct 2005)

I don't know how they did it but they do deserve kudos on a job well done. 
They sized everyone months in advance and when the stock came in, the e-mails went out and voila, one garbage bage full of kit. sized to you. 
The Airforce does have one advantage. They don't need to feild test too much. so mostly its off the shelf purchases. The best part of all the airforce kit is the strap that can hold a coffe mug ( actually its for ear defenders) and Fleece lined pockets. Warm to put your hands in.

Now if only they can tie their boots up properly, zip up them jackets. Wear headress in the mall AND learn to roll their sleeves up properly.


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## aesop081 (3 Oct 2005)

mover1 said:
			
		

> Now if only they can tie their boots up properly, zip up them jackets. Wear headress in the mall AND learn to roll their sleeves up properly.



You wouldnt be talking about the Greenwood mall now would you ?

Because that never happens there !!!  :


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## Gramps (3 Oct 2005)

No, not in the Greenwood mall!!! Say it isn't so! How about coveralls tied at the waist, a black t-shirt, CADPAT bush hat, and non-issued boots while the CDS is taxiing onto the Ramp at the AMU. Oh and how about the Lt. Navy (no I am not picking on the Navy, he just happened to be a Naval Officer) with his black beret, Air Force Gore-Tex Jacket (yeah, the blue one) un zipped, spitting up something horrible while walking between 7 and 8 Hangar, and I am supposed to salute that!!


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## mover1 (4 Oct 2005)

Never in the Greenwood Mall. Funny too because it isn't hte younger newer people either. Its the older Cpl for life types that are the biggest offenders. 
Like the firehall boot drive yesterday. All the firemen at the gate. the MWO at the head of the pack. NOT ONE OF THOSE F)$*#%& WERE WEARING THEIR HEADRESS!!!!


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## George Wallace (4 Oct 2005)

Don't you find that it is usually the non-Operational types who do it the most.  Seems that many who work in those 'air conditioned' offices are the biggest offenders.....but I lay most of the blame on Base Chiefs not doing their jobs.  

I remember taking two paces outside of a shack in Germany, while doing up my Cbt Jacket, having a voice come out of nowhere, yelling at me to do up my top button.  It was the Base Chief, across the road, on the second floor balcony (took me a while to locate him), with his eagle eyes, screaming at me.  Good ole Mr. Slaney.  Don't make them like him anymore.  Most today ignore Dress and Deportment, or are afraid of some smartass charging them with "Harassment'.  :


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## MOOO! (4 Oct 2005)

Not going to name places but my support base is Air force.  We caught members of the supply group with field kit when we brought them out to deployment training in the field.  They had all the nice kit and who were they you ask? Just like everyone else has stated the Bin rats and their friends.  

When we hit the field on major exercises they wonder why we don't show any respect for them this might be the reason.

Combat arms guys need the kit.  You guys who don't see the field for years at a time (seeing it from the plane doesn't count) help us poor guys who get miserable and mad because you say we can still use the uniform when we are missing pockets and razor wire ripped one pant leg off.

Lets work together.

Let the government do their usual job and deny us stuff not our own team members.


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## aesop081 (4 Oct 2005)

MOOO! said:
			
		

> Not going to name places but my support base is Air force.   We caught members of the supply group with field kit when we brought them out to deployment training in the field.   They had all the nice kit and who were they you ask? Just like everyone else has stated the Bin rats and their friends.
> 
> When we hit the field on major exercises they wonder why we don't show any respect for them this might be the reason.
> 
> ...



I got a closet full of gortex CADPAT you can have.....i'll never use it !!


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## mover1 (4 Oct 2005)

Most airforce people are not issued operational feild kit on a permanent baisis. Most are issued on an as required basis. Massive stocks are not held at supply. Therefore if that person is going on a feild excercise then chances are theat pack they are wearing is right out of the box   and brand new. Also it must be turned in right after the ex/deploment/training is done.

If you are still using a uniform with the pockets ripped out then get it exchanged. You were issued with more than one set right? You can wear those in the mean time.  Don't give me that he has it I don't whining stuff. Ask through your chain of command why you don'thave it. If you have good leaders they will tell you the reason why. And if the guy has it who doesn't need it then I can gaurunttee that when your boss and his has a talk there will only be one looser.


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## sigtech (4 Oct 2005)

mover1 said:
			
		

> If you are still using a uniform with the pockets ripped out then get it exchanged. You were issued with more than one set right? You can wear those in the mean time.   Don't give me that he has it I don't whining stuff. Ask through your chain of command why you don'thave it. If you have good leaders they will tell you the reason why. And if the guy has it who doesn't need it then I can gaurunttee that when your boss and his has a talk there will only be one looser.



Leaders can't do much if they don't have stock, the problem in Kingston is this , the green gortex isn't being made there for you have to wait for someone to turn in a Jacket. The new Cad won't be in general issue untell the spring for Army so you wait and hope


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## a_beautiful_tragedy (4 Oct 2005)

aesop081 said:
			
		

> I got a closet full of gortex CADPAT you can have.....i'll never use it !!




thats soo stupid that airforce got capat stuff...they were the first to trial the cadpat rain gear to....yeah cause that will do alot of good ...on the back of a chair


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## sigtech (4 Oct 2005)

a_beautiful_tragedy said:
			
		

> thats soo stupid that airforce got capat stuff...they were the first to trial the cadpat rain gear to....yeah cause that will do alot of good ...on the back of a chair



Hey they did it the correct way 
This stuff works buy it
Now the Army didn't so we wait


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## mover1 (4 Oct 2005)

a_beautiful_tragedy said:
			
		

> thats soo stupid that airforce got capat stuff...they were the first to trial the cadpat rain gear to....yeah cause that will do alot of good ...on the back of a chair



Your ignorance to what happens in the real world is showing.


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## sigtech (4 Oct 2005)

mover1 said:
			
		

> Your ignorance to what happens in the real world is showing.



Well you have to admit Mover it is funny that feild troops don't have it before the Air Force and really most Air Force personal don't really need it as much as say people from the F Ech. Traffic Techs are a wee bit differnt you work outside alot move Air personal do not


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## aesop081 (4 Oct 2005)

a_beautiful_tragedy said:
			
		

> thats soo stupid that airforce got capat stuff...they were the first to trial the cadpat rain gear to....yeah cause that will do alot of good ...on the back of a chair



Ever stop to think why that happened ?

Guess with your vast experience it was easy to see how things played out.  Of course you probably think that the technicians that are outside on the start crew when i go flying dont need decent kit when the weather goes down to -30C.  I wouldnt want them in the best kit possible either   :

Its easy for you to het wraped up in this " the airforce doesnt need this stuff" since you have not the slightest clue what we do.  One could say that you as a reservist, dont spend enough time in the field to justify having GORTEX ( TM) kit but i've been on your side of the fence so i know it makes life easier.  Maybe before you comment you should educate yourself on what airman/airwomen do before you open your piehole !!


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## mover1 (5 Oct 2005)

sigtech said:
			
		

> Well you have to admit Mover it is funny that feild troops don't have it before the Air Force and really most Air Force personal don't really need it as much as say people from the F Ech. Traffic Techs are a wee bit differnt you work outside alot move Air personal do not



Nothing will keep you guys happy will it. If you like our kit so much why not trow in you re-muster and join us. Just like nearly half the guys I see over there. Besides Rain gear with reflective tape (which is a necessity when working on the line) would go over swell with your RSM
I have been in the feild. I have worked with some horrible kit. However I survived and re-mustered. When I first go to the airforce I was amazed, absoloutely amazed at how much the airforce works outside. When the weather is bad the techs usually call it a maintenece day. You can only fit so many planes in a hangar. The rest is done outside.
  Starts/ parks and 75% of the maintenece is done outside.
   So please don't give me the old ARMY deserves it first stuff. The AF has their own budget and their own requirements. If their powers that be were a little more on the ball, and procured and issued kit En mass faster than your ARMY supply chain can do, then thats great. Instead of chucking crap at us , someone should look at how we did it and apply those "Lessons Learned" to your own issues. And  ask through your chain "Why do they get stuff when we have to wait so long".

  Just to let you know. And get this on topic again. Supply is going to be holding ZERO stock in clothing stores. If you have an unservicable or exchangeable item. Then it will take a maximum of 5 days for them to order it from the Depot and get it in your hot little hands.
  Gone will be the days of we don't have that. Now we are entering the days where 'It's on back order"


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## sigtech (5 Oct 2005)

mover1 said:
			
		

> Nothing will keep you guys happy will it. If you like our kit so much why not trow in you re-muster and join us. Just like nearly half the guys I see over there. Besides Rain gear with reflective tape (which is a necessity when working on the line) would go over swell with your RSM
> I have been in the feild. I have worked with some horrible kit. However I survived and re-mustered. When I first go to the airforce I was amazed, absoloutely amazed at how much the airforce works outside. When the weather is bad the techs usually call it a maintenece day. You can only fit so many planes in a hangar. The rest is done outside.
> Starts/ parks and 75% of the maintenece is done outside.
> So please don't give me the old ARMY deserves it first stuff. The AF has their own budget and their own requirements. If their powers that be were a little more on the ball, and procured and issued kit En mass faster than your ARMY supply chain can do, then thats great. Instead of chucking crap at us , someone should look at how we did it and apply those "Lessons Learned" to your own issues. And   ask through your chain "Why do they get stuff when we have to wait so long".
> ...



settle mover don't make me call gramps and get him to settle you down  ;D


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## Gramps (5 Oct 2005)

Ahhhh, so now I am a hired goon..................again. Don't worry sigtech since I have known you for many many years you get the special discount. Cheers.


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## sigtech (5 Oct 2005)

Ya I know what you mean mover , I had to go up the chain to so I can get them to repair my old Jacket. So we will see where this takes it. Man we need a influx of money is a big way, when troops can't even get a basic thing like a Jacket we are deffently in the middle of sad sad times


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## mover1 (7 Oct 2005)

Settle me down. 
I had to settle that freaky thing down. He was in his drive way doing convulsions, frothing at the mouth. Good thing he had his helmet and bite plate on.


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## sigtech (7 Oct 2005)

mover1 said:
			
		

> Settle me down.
> I had to settle that freaky thing down. He was in his drive way doing convulsions, frothing at the mouth. Good thing he had his helmet and bite plate on.



oh ya if gramps does that throw him a raw steak and a beer and he will be fine


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## Gramps (7 Oct 2005)

mover1 said:
			
		

> Settle me down.
> I had to settle that freaky thing down. He was in his drive way doing convulsions, frothing at the mouth. Good thing he had his helmet and bite plate on.



Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Thanks again. I seem to have lost my bite plate though and I may need it this weekend. I wonder if they have them in the supply system?


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## aesop081 (7 Oct 2005)

Mover1........Gramps....dont me have to come back to g'wood and sort you guys out.

I didnt think it was possible, but while we are on the subject of the supply system, the hours at clothing in 14 wing aren't the worse ..........


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## Gramps (7 Oct 2005)

aesop081... How about we settle this like men................a good old fashioned 1980's style break dance contest at the Top Hat. ;D


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## aesop081 (7 Oct 2005)

Gramps said:
			
		

> aesop081... How about we settle this like men................a good old fashioned 1980's style break dance contest at the Top Hat. ;D



Consider yourself served ........... :threat:


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## Inch (7 Oct 2005)

mover1, 

You are aware that those reflective strips fold under so they're not seen don't you? The base Chief here in Shearwater has passed down that they shall all be folded under unless you're working on the flight line.


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## mover1 (12 Oct 2005)

I do understand that they tuckup under. However we haven't been given that direction yet. In fact the rules of the day for us here in our section are to be wearing something reflective from dusk to dawn or in inclement weather.



 Besides it looks way cool when the disco lights hit you, makes for far better break dancing.


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## buzgo (1 Nov 2005)

Ahh I don't know where else to post this, seems like a good place.

I've been paying close attention to people walking around NDHQ (slouching around!?) and riding on the bus and I have noticed a few things..

1. the no-hook privates in clothing stores seem to all be wearing high speed door kicker boots

2. there are alot of green LOG types walking around in cadpat raingear, some of these people fall under category 1

I'm cool with people wearing kit they have been honestly issued, but some of this seems to be a bit fishy... could it be that the supply people are issuing themselves gucci kit that they are not entitled to?

Oh, and one other thing, why is that when I go to clothing stores at NDHQ, the ONLY people who I ever deal with are no-hook privates.....?


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## exrigger66 (1 Nov 2005)

OMG,  cry me a river.  

Supply Techs are there to do a job just as you are.  And believe you me, every trade could use some clean up after looking in the mirror.  
I love to hear people complain about the Sup System.  It makes me think that the new battle cry for the individuals like yourself should be "ME, ME,ME"  
I am total disbelief of the claim that there are no boot laces.  Did you ask to talk to the I/C of clothing?  I believe that there are pieces missing from your claim.  

Tell the whole story.  If you are that concerned about it, they give you this little amount every month called CUA.  When is the last time you used that for any clothing items?  Spend the $4 0r $5 to get your laces.


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## George Wallace (1 Nov 2005)

Someone just recently corrected me on CUA; it no longer exists.

I have heard horror stories of the Clothing Stores in Ottawa.  I have experienced the frustration of never being able to get anyone to answer their phone there, or reply to their frigg'n Voice Mail.  I will have to go back to visit them in a few weeks to get some kit, an appointment I was able to make after getting an unlisted number of the person (Pte) who books the appointments.  I have actually been treated quite well in my few visits to their lair in the bowels of NDHQ.  

Ottawa is definitely a strange place when it comes to Orders of Dress though.  There have been a few threads on that lost cause.


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## GO!!! (1 Nov 2005)

exrigger66 said:
			
		

> OMG,   cry me a river.
> 
> Supply Techs are there to do a job just as you are.   And believe you me, every trade could use some clean up after looking in the mirror.
> I love to hear people complain about the Sup System.   It makes me think that the new battle cry for the individuals like yourself should be "ME, ME,ME"
> ...



OMG, STFU, cut the MSN Speak.

Boot laces are an entitlement, not something you should have to buy. 

You'll get little sympathy from anyone at the pointy end for this type of crap. Why not just buy our own weapons and rations too? Would'nt want a supply tech to have to get off his extra large, padded swivel chair for anyone less than his commanding general.

CUA is for Uniform Upkeep, namely the DEUs, and was cancelled October first, in favour of a point system for said uniform.

So get your facts straight before spouting off about a toppic you obviously know so little about, making the "retired" part of your profile painfully obvious.


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## Gramps (1 Nov 2005)

exrigger66, When I spoke to clothing about the boot laces it was the I/C I was talking to! A very helpful person but there were no laces to be had. It has since been sorted out. Whether you believe it or not really does not interest me, in fact, I probably could not care any less than I do right now if you believe it or not. I have in fact used mt CUA (when we had it) to buy clothing items from time to time. As for the ME ME ME comment maybe you have forgotten that those of us that wear the LOG badges are there to provide a service to those that fly the aircraft, carry the rifles, maintain the vehicles and live on the ships and so on. So, before you say there are pieces missing from anyones claims, maybe you should check things out yourself before spewing out insults to others. Oh, and the last time I spent money for clothing items was in September just in case you were curious, not that I or anyone here owes you an explanation for our actions.


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## sigtech (2 Nov 2005)

exrigger if you had read everything that came before and including Gramps post you would understand , in this thread we were talking about the lack of kit in the supply system and how hard it is to get anything including laces , please keep your rude comments to yourself, I have known gramps for 14 years now 12 years of that military service and let me tell you he is the last one to bitch and moan. I AM THE ONE THE WHINS AND CRYS, that is why I started this thread thank you very much


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## armyvern (2 Nov 2005)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> OMG, STFU, cut the MSN Speak.


Seconded!


			
				GO!!! said:
			
		

> Boot laces are an entitlement, not something you should have to buy.


Absolutely they are entitlement and therefore a Supply Clothing Stores item, and if they can not for some ungodly reason, manage to have them available, then it is their responsibility to purchase appropriate laces for you downtown using the National budget as they are a stocked item. I don't have any problem getting them from depot Montreal here in Gagetown...I have a big coat hanger right inside the door of clothing next to the front counter that is draped with cbt boot laces and desert boot laces so the troops can come in and get them when they need them. But every first line unit QM should also have these available for the troops within their Unit shop...


			
				GO!!! said:
			
		

> You'll get little sympathy from anyone at the pointy end for this type of crap. Why not just buy our own weapons and rations too? Wouldn't want a supply tech to have to get off his extra large, padded swivel chair for anyone less than his commanding general.


Nor should any sympathy be expected by the Sup Tech at Clothing who has failed to do their job. I will back the pointy end up on this.


			
				GO!!! said:
			
		

> CUA is for Uniform Upkeep, namely the DEUs, and was cancelled October first, in favour of a point system for said uniform.


Correct again...and as an ex-rigger (read 911 Sup Tech here) this poster should be more than aware of that fact and the fact that CUA was NEVER intended for anything other than Permanently issued DEU kit items.


			
				GO!!! said:
			
		

> So get your facts straight before spouting off about a topic you obviously know so little about, making the "retired" part of your profile painfully obvious.


It still amazes me that as a rigger poster was also a Sup Tech...apparently a career rigger though with very little actual real world Supply experience.


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