# Leaders, Managers, and the journey to Utopia



## 2 Charlie (10 Jan 2001)

Warning Order:

So Gunner it is apparent that you are a WO, the Back Bone of the army, the one position between the troops and infinity.  The individual, who lives Ops, has the technical knowledge of the trade, afinity for the men and respect from officers.  For the Guns, the AC IG.

Stand tall.

Oh yes; now lets here your thoughts and use this topic to continue the milieu of our previous post.

It is simplistically said, what goes around comes around.  When you are telling the government that although things are a little rough and personnel are stretched thin, but the job is getting doe, and done admirably.

What do you expect?  Human nature as a fault causes most individuals not to react until it is usually too late.  Why should we, there is nothing to fix, why fix it if it is not broken.  Hence the double lie we live.  Of recent times there has been a plethora of derisive and negative information that has bubbled to the surface.  CFHA, pay, SAR Choppers, Sea Kings, etc (amazing how the LSVW was forgotten about)

If this had not occurred we would still be soldiering on, doing what soldiers do best in a group.  The lie consists of the implied need for new equipment etc, to be heard, but the applied overtones that all is functionally well mask this.

With the politicizing and bureaucratizing of our senior leadership, it is hard to make a simple straightforward request or comment.  It has to be worded or veiled in a manner that allows the presenter room to manoeuvre or extricate themselves. 

At the unit/command level, yes soldiering is carried out, but if you are a WO, how much time is dedicated today to staffing priorities and other administrative perfunctionaries of the CF.  Can you honestly say that this is not a fact?  

If not to obviate and necessitate the cause, most of the time it confounds.


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## Gunner (10 Jan 2001)

Actually the mighty Corporal is considered the backbone of the Army.  WOs simply advise God.  Anyway, I‘m not sure of the purpose of your rant besides slagging the entire system.

My only comment concerns life in the unit.  Is it different now then in the 80s?  Sure it is.  Do I do more administration.  Sure I do...goes with the rank.  Good administration is simply one means of taking care of your people.  Isn‘t that one of the things leadership is about?  We live in a more complex world, deal with it.

Gunner sends....


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## Mud Crawler (11 Jan 2001)

I don‘t want to be pessimist but, when i went for my medicals at the recruitment center, it was full of corporals, a few sergeants, a few Cpt and a few Warrant Officers. My point is, if the Corporal is the backbone that is led and tought by WO, mayeb we should get brighter WO cand Cpl cuz i wasnt really impressed with the level of brain power involved in the process of decision making.Im not targeting you Gunner, i dont know you, so i cant say your dumb.But the ones i delt with  werent genius.The WO who filled my med file asked me a ton of questions on my med status.I answered to her questions and she was like "Huh?".I explain.We talked about my tooth extraction so she says"Ok so 3 surgical operations".I say "2 infact one of the extraction being a simple extraction(meaning no cutting with a knife)".So she looks at me with a face that says i dont understand. SO i look at her and "Yeah 3 surgical operations".The thing is i dont see whats so damn complicated about that.I got the impression she didnt get a good note on her aptitude test Oh yeah, so my point is, dont wonder why the Cf is in teh state it is presently if the people with the decision making power are as dumb as that WO.

Mud Crawler 
Dang, i shoulda put leather gloves before fast-roping


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## JRMACDONALD (11 Jan 2001)

Gunner- a correction, if I may--WOs advise those who think they are God.
MUD- Did you ever pause to consider those WOs and Cpls had the same opinion of you?


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## Mud Crawler (11 Jan 2001)

JR- If i was dumb i couldnt sit in class, only listen, not do any hoem work and get 85+ and above average results, dont you think?Also i wouldnt have been bilingual since 7.

Thats what i think was sad with the last federal campaign, it was always the same subjects that were coming back i.e. abortion and his referendum on questions like deaath sentence and stuff like that.Ok i made a mistake, and in order not to make it again, pls explain to me what are his proposed gun law?by the way, im not liberal either and if theres nothing too ugly about his proposals and if he heklps the CF and bosst the budget of teh Cf, i could vote for Day.


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## Mud Crawler (11 Jan 2001)

errrrrrrrrrr damned typo


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## Andyboy (12 Jan 2001)

Bilingual? Hardly.

      With all due respect (emphasis on due) how about learning not to call the kettle black before you pass judgement.


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## RCA (12 Jan 2001)

To continue on in the original thread.

First of all I use this forum to blow of steam and some times I can be quite negative. Howver I have to general points

1.  I have stated this before and will do so agin. We can all complain about the forces being too small, lack of trg time etc but what it boils down to is that we are a demorcacy and  we are the Armed Forces that the people want. The don‘ t want us going into a war situation where people may be killed Gulf War), they don‘t want us warlike (and therefore the fallicy of peacekeeping). they don‘t want to spend money on new hardware when they do not precieve a threat and money could be better spent on health care and education. We are a relefection of the publics wishes. and gov‘r understands this.

2. For any of us who have being doing this for awihle (and to a certain degree those that aren‘t in don‘t understand) is that first and foremost we are sodiers. When the CO comes to me and says that he wants so and so done, I can tell him - " Sir, I don‘t think tahts a good idea". He then says "I hear you but this is what I want done" I give him the high five and the proceed to get the job done to the best opf my ability. I go to My SNCO‘ and say I want so and so done, they will come back and say that might not be agood idea where apon I will tell them I hear you ButBut this is what I want done. 
This is not blind obidiece but good order and dislpine. The only time that you refuse an order is  if it is unlawful. Following orders whether you agree or not and doing them to the best of your ablity is a sign of a professional.

Now this applys all the way up the chain to the CDS. Decisions are made up top that we may not understand but I am certain that in most cases the are done with the best interests of the Forces at heart. (not necessarly the individual, but the whole is greater than the sum of all its parts)


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## Gunner (12 Jan 2001)

RCA - I believe it was 16 years ago this weekend (14-15 Jan) that  I met you whenI began my BMT course.  Quite a crew of instructors and candidates we had.  Where does the time go?   Hard to believe your oldest is 16 now! 

Hope all is well at the unit, 

Gunner sends....


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## RCA (13 Jan 2001)

How time flies when your having fun

By the way the eldest is 17 graduates this year and the youngest is about to start drivers ed.

Hope all is well in Yugo and stay safe

Ubique


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## Michael Dorosh (13 Jan 2001)

RCA, well said as usual.  

We were talking about centralized orderly rooms a while back.  I just got the word - and while there is still some confusion as to how it will work or who it will involve - the happy thing I have to report is that all involved get to keep their current headdress and kit.  Being a Highlander that‘s pretty important to me, and I imagine the black hatters across the parade square will be happy to keep their RCAC hats - or at least, they should be.

The reason I am bringing this up is to illustrate that we all sometimes get pessimistic, but there are other times you have to admit that the Army gets things right once in awhile.  I may not have had any business jumping to conclusions about being forced out of the Regiment I‘ve belonged to going on 14 years, but I do know I felt pretty proud of my superiors for coming to the right decision regarding our "status" and hopefully realizing where the source of much of our pride comes from.  

You know, with all the formal procedures we have for bitching and complaining - Redress of Grievance, Ombudsman - can anyone tell me what kind of procedure is in place for saying something NICE about their superiors?  Or letting them know that we appreciate something they have done for us?  Not the easiest thing in the world to do - and I have the feeling few could be bothered to try...kind of a pity, really.


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## Gunner (13 Jan 2001)

Michael Dorosh, it‘s not really reqr to say something nice about your leaders.  It‘s expected that the vast majority of their decisions are made with your benefit and welfare in mind.  Sending a letter can be construed as "brown nosing" or simply makin yourself into a good old fashioned "weenie".  That said, how you want to accomplish this depends on what you are thankful for.

Simpliest way is to tell the person to his/her face that you appreciate what they have done.  No higher praise then that....but do it privately.

You can tell the chain of command that you think "so and so" did an outstanding job.

You can write a letter to the superior of the "person you want to thank or acknowledge".    For that matter you can simply write a letter to who you want to acknowledge.

Other things you can do is, depending on what your superior has done, is recommend them for CO Commendation, Brigade Commendation, Area Commendation, LFC Commendation, CDS Commendation.  

Perhaps someone has been an outstanding person all their military career, therefore maybe a ORMM nomination may be in order.  Nothing better for a person if their subordinates chose who should recv a nomination rather then the chain of command.

Lots of ways to do it, just make sure it is done professionally.

Just my thoughts.


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## Michael Dorosh (13 Jan 2001)

Gunner, thanks for your thoughts - much appreciated.  There is the school of thought, too, that simply doing your job the best you can "should be" thanks enough for a person‘s leaders/bosses/managers.  

One obviously doesn‘t want to go around sucking up either, you raise a good point.  From a philosophical standpoint, I just find it interesting that we have more systems formalized for discipline and complaint than we do for praise - especially regarding feedback from a junior rank regarding his seniors.  (You mention letters of appreciation - I have several on my pers file as I‘m sure most people do, and have seen those written for/about others - interestingly (to me) I‘ve never heard of such a letter being written by someone regarding a superior of theirs, however).  I‘m not complaining on that point, as I realize that is simply the nature of things.  I wonder if there is a general perception that junior ranks are not capable of accurately judging or assessing the abilities of their seniors (for good or for bad)?  Hence no systems are in place.

(I can‘t comment from a military standpoint, but I think I can relate - when I was a bike courier, I definitely had very concrete assumptions about what my manager should be doing and how well he was doing it - once promoted to operations manager, I began to resent my staff for making those same assumptions, since the job entailed far more than I had dreamed, and I realized that "mere" employees really had no way of knowing what the stresses were like since they never had to assume the responsibilities for themselves.  I take it the same applies for the military?)

Therefore - does the maintenance of good order and discipline demand that junior ranks not be permitted to judge or assess the conduct of their superiors?


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## Gunner (14 Jan 2001)

Michael Dorosh, I think the ultimate judge of ones leadership ability is how his subordinates think of their leader.  Probably the proudest I‘ve ever been as a leader is when someone thanks me for something I‘ve done for them.  I don‘t expect it but its nice to know you made a difference.

Should subordinates be allowed to comment on their leaders ability?  That‘s difficult to answer.  I am optimistic that the "system" does a pretty good job of weeding out those leaders that a someone will follow to hell and those  leaders that someone would follow only because of curiousity.  It‘s  however not a perfect system.    

I‘ve always believed that the "system" has a double check in dealing with leaders that are problems.  That being the officer - NCO team at every level of command.  If an offr is poor he has his WO to advise him behind closed doors.  Similarly, the WO gets his authority from the offr.  We need that relationship.

Secondly, we have the ability of the Sgt or WO to go up the NCM chain Sgt to WO to MWO to CWO so complaints or concerns can be given from an NCM perspective to the CO.

Anyway, enough rambling, if you want to send a letter on one of your superiors, go ahead.  Just make it concise and direct to the point you are trying to make.  For example:

Sir,

I am currently employed with the Calgary Garrison Orderly Room.  During the recent switch to the "Garrison" provision of centralized services I was extremely impressed with the way (insert rank and name) conducted themselves during the switchover.

(insert rank and name) was extremely proactive in his/her approach to the planning and preparation for the event.  He/she ensured we were all aware of how the change would effect our employment and our Regimental identity.  I was always aware of what was going on and he/she was extremely approachable over all of the clerks concerns.

I believe his/her actions were an excellent example of leadership and I thought that you should be aware of (insert rank and name)‘s efforts to minimize the stress incurred by all members of the new Garrison Orderly Room.  


<<signed>>
M. Dorosh
rank
Calgary Garrison  Orderly Room

How‘s that for not even knowing you?


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## 2 Charlie (22 Jan 2001)

Sent as a joke from a friend in the corp orate world, he feels that it truly applies to us.

Cubicle Wisdom: 

1. If you do a good job and work hard, you may get a job with a better company someday. 

2. The light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off due to budget cuts. 

3. Sure, you may not like working here, but we pay your rent. 

4. Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings -- they did it by killing all those

who opposed them. 

5. A person who smiles in the face of adversity probably has a scapegoat. 

6. If at first you don‘t succeed--try management. 

7. Never put off until tomorrow what you can avoid altogether. 

8. Never quit until you have another job. 

9. Hang in there: Retirement is only 30 years away! 

10. Go the extra mile--It makes your boss look like an incompetent slacker. 

11. Pride, commitment, teamwork--words we use to get you to work for free. 

12. Work: It isn‘t just for sleeping anymore. 

13. There are two kinds of people in life: people who like their jobs, and people who don‘t work here anymore.


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