# Loading the Tac Vest



## P Kaye (17 Feb 2005)

I just got a Tac Vest.
What do people normally put in the utility pouches of their TVs?
In the old webbing, with the large but-pack, you could put your complete rainsuit, field dressing, bush hat, gloves, cord, etc, etc.
There doesn't seem to be nearly as much room in the TV.  I think I've decided I have to forego the rainsuit, for starters.  Curious... what do people normally laod in the TV?
Also, have any reservists used their TV on course yet, or do most course instructors still insist on the webbing?


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## jswift872 (17 Feb 2005)

well there was a thread about this somewhere, I'll try to find it but..to answer your question, I am doing SQ now and they issued me the tacvest and we have to use it


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## Freight_Train (17 Feb 2005)

From Clothe the Soldier - http://www.army.gc.ca/Chief_Land_Staff/Clothe_the_soldier/hab/2/2711_e.asp


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## P Kaye (17 Feb 2005)

Yeah, but based on what they show on Clothe the Soldier, you can't take much in the TV.  As I indicated, I used to stuff all kinds of stuff in my butt-pack and  utility pouch, which was very handy.


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## dw_1984 (17 Feb 2005)

I don't wanna revive that big long "tac vest does not make the grade" thread and all of its arguing but for those who felt that the TV doesn't have enough carrying capacity, what do you use to supplement it?  I've personally used a nuke bag but I feel that something that I can quickly access would be better suited...also, something I can wear while wearing the ruck.

So, what is out there?


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## Britney Spears (17 Feb 2005)

Ammo, dude, bring ammo.....


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## Troopasaurus (18 Feb 2005)

Kit list I have recieved:
Front Left Utility - 2X field dressings, Mag Charger, Ear plugs.
Front Right Utility - 1X sock system, Cam Paint.
Left C9 - Gloves, Combat Hat, FMP.
Inside Pocket - Ration and/or Map.
The rest of the pockets as per CTS site.
also a note on the kit list - C9 gunners encouraged to attach both C9 pouches and wear Camelbak for hydration.

Not my personal opinion but what ive been told.


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## Farmboy (18 Feb 2005)

Who really needs the rain suit anyway?   Throw it in a nuke bag or assault pack.

If you have a vest you don't wear webbing on the courses.

On a good course they won't care were stuff is located as long as you have it and it works for you, on the bad ones they want it in a certain pocket in a certain order   :.

I can fit

FMP                       Remember you have inside pockets. You can also zap strap a military belt to the bottom 
cleaning kit        of your vest and put a canteen holder on it if you don''t have a camelbak. Then put two 
field cap              utility pouches on. No one gets issued grenades on EXs so stick you camo and dressing
issued gloves   in those pouches.
nomex gloves
cam paint               I bought a Tactical Tailer assault pack that will hold all I need for a recce patrol or OP 
field dressing         including camelback, plus it has webbing on the outside were a pouch for the hand 
mag charger         held radio will go and one for the C9 box if I get stuck with it which doubles as a   
compass                   utility  pouch  if not.
butane lighter
field mirror            Socks in the TV??   If you are changing your socks then you have time, put them in a 
flashlight                 pack. 
para cord
foot powder (only on course)
sunscreen      (only on course)
KFS                    (only on course)
lip balm


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## P Kaye (18 Feb 2005)

You can fit all that in your TV??  

>> Remember you have inside pockets

Good tip!  I didn't notice the inside pockets.

>> You can also zap strap a military belt to the bottom of your vest...

I'm not quite sure what you mean... you mean attach a webbing belt to the bottom?  How would you attach it?

>> I bought a Tactical Tailer assault pack that will hold all I need for a recce patrol 

Is this a Wheelers item?


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## Troopasaurus (18 Feb 2005)

Tactical Tailor Assult pack
http://www.tacticaltailor.com/products/packs/three_day_assault_pack/ 

Daves surplus has a couple in CADPAT at the moment also.


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## Farmboy (18 Feb 2005)

I also forgot that my touqe is in there right now as well and at the moment only one utility pouch and canteen carrier.



> >> You can also zap strap a military belt to the bottom of your vest...
> 
> I'm not quite sure what you mean... you mean attach a webbing belt to the bottom?  How would you attach it?



 If you have, or buy a military web belt like this one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






 Then take zap straps, go around the belt and through the little plastic hangers? on the bottom of the vest. Since ours is the only vest made that does not have belt loops this seems to be the best way.

 Then you can attach "after market" (because again our vest is not compatible with any other) canteen carriers, sheaths, pouches, butt packs ect. to it.


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## Pencil Tech (20 Feb 2005)

The "Small Pack System" includes a (a couple of them) fanny pack pouch that you wear with a belt, or attach to the back of the vest, It's about the same size as the old butt pack.


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## 043 (20 Feb 2005)

Farmboy said:
			
		

> On a good course they won't care were stuff is located as long as you have it and it works for you, on the bad ones they want it in a certain pocket in a certain order   :.



Sorry about bursting your bubble but can you not think of the reason why things must be in certain pockets?? 

Like how about if your fireteam partner gets injured...............your not going to use your field dressings, your going to use his..............you need to know that it will be in the same place on his kit as it is on yours.  That is just one example but come on, there has to be a standard. It has to be the same for your rucksack outer pockets as well. As for you saying that a good course means that you can put your kit anywhere you want??? IMHO, you are right out of 'er!!!!


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## Britney Spears (20 Feb 2005)

You guys need to do some searches and read the other tacvest thread, despite what CHIMO!!!!! and the other NCOs have been trying to pound into you, some of you are just not "getting" what fighting order is suppose to mean.


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## foerestedwarrior (21 Feb 2005)

Standardizing Kit for the feild is usless, is there any other reason beyond "if your fireteam partner gets hurt and you need to use his dressing". To have a kit layout standard forces people to conform to uncomfortable and sometimse usless setup. Being a C6 gunner in my unit, I have no were near the same setup as a rifleman. IMO, but onwards.

Farmboy, you should have socks in your vest. You are thinking like a toon(i'm a reservist too). You are supposed to be self sufficiant from your vest/webbing for 24hrs(you can survive on one IMP). Thus socks are really nice and sometimes necesary to have. 

One thing I have picked up from this thread thus far
A) rainsuit complete, dont wear the pants, you will only get wet anyways, they dont help much at all, they are loud, so leave em at home were they belong.
B)i turfed my canteen and pouch the second i had 5 minutes to put both C9 box/utiliy pouches on. I use a 2qt canteen with a long hose that runs up over my shoulders and has a bite peice on the end(more water, more space on your back(vs. Camleback) for wear with a ruck.


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## big bad john (21 Feb 2005)

foerestedwarrior said:
			
		

> Standardizing Kit for the feild is usless, is there any other reason beyond "if your fireteam partner gets hurt and you need to use his dressing". To have a kit layout standard forces people to conform to uncomfortable and sometimse usless setup. Being a C6 gunner in my unit, I have no were near the same setup as a rifleman. IMO, but onwards.



Having the experience of applying dressings in the field and of scavenging ammunition and supplies off bodies, let me tell you that when you are slightly occupied by people trying to spoil your day, the last thing you want to do is to stay out of cover and go through every pocket and pouch trying to find what you really need.  H*ll hath no fury like a Colour Sergeant who finds your kit not in order.  It is in a particular place so that it can save your life.

Secondly, please use the spell check feature.


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## 043 (21 Feb 2005)

Glad to see that you think having a standardized kit list is stupid. Maybe that is why you have complete 2 x QL4 courses. At least that is what you put in your profile.

Have a good day.


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## 043 (21 Feb 2005)

big bad john said:
			
		

> Having the experience of applying dressings in the field and of scavenging ammunition and supplies off bodies, let me tell you that when you are slightly occupied by people trying to spoil your day, the last thing you want to do is to stay out of cover and go through every pocket and pouch trying to find what you really need.   H*ll hath no fury like a Colour Sergeant who finds your kit not in order.   It is in a particular place so that it can save your life.
> 
> Secondly, please use the spell check feature.



Great comment! He is just another example of people on here who haven't experienced anything other than exercises over a weekend.


CHIMO!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Britney Spears (21 Feb 2005)

OK, let me try to clarify our positions before someone loses an eye.

There are 2 seperate issues we are debating 1) The usefulness of specific KIT LISTS, and 2) a uniform LAYOUT of kit.  This post will also allude to my previous point of many not understanding what webbing is for.

Having one's webbing laid out in a uniform manner is a Very Good Thing, as my collegues above have amply explained. However, the gypsy caravan crowd do have a point in that most of the kit lists I've ever seen (ops 100 anyone?) are completely useless for the field.

Your webbing is designed for providing easy access to stuff you need RIGHT AWAY. It is not a carryall for your personal snivel kit  Your webbing SHOULD be used to carry the following:

Ammunition for personal weapon (may not always be just 5 mags, and don't forget about the M203)
PRR/521 and batteries
Ammunition for support weapons, including M203 bombs,  linked MG ammunition, M72s.....
Grenades/Pyro
NVGs and batteries
Field dressing/minimal 1st aid supplies
Maps
Water, if there is any space left.

Thats the only kit list you need, and it definetly SHOULD be standardized.

When you jump out of the truck and sprain your ankle, or get sand in your ovaries, and otherwise render yourself NS, your plt still has use for your kit and must be able to easily access these vital plt stores and serialized kit. Your buddy has no use for your gloves, or bushhat or foot powder or any of that other crap, so keep it somewhere else. (I keep mine in my camelback, and the small soft stuff in my pant cargo pockets, that's what those are for, by the way). I HIGHLY doubt that you will be able to fit all of the above list in your webbing and still have room left for anything else, especially with the TV, so you can stop worrying about where to put your extra pair of socks. These things are extra important if you are the  machine gunner, your buddy absolutely needs to just grab your kit and go without any unneccesary hassle. Keeping your pers kit seperate will also mean you get to keep your gloves and bobble hat and rations until help finds you.

So, to summarize:

Training with a fulll, realistic loadout: Good!
Training with none of the expensive stuff, but still loading your webbing as if you had to carry the expensive stuff: Not as good, but not much choice in the Mo.
Training with none of the expensive stuff, and filling your pouches with sticky buns and buckets of fried chicken because "we'll never see more than 5 mags anyway.": Stupid, recipe for disaster. 


The next guy who asks  "In which pouch do you guys keep your bushhat?" needs a bloody verbal.


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## Britney Spears (21 Feb 2005)

Oh, and of course, if you're a sapper or medic or jimmy, you'll need to carry the sapper/medic/jimmy stuff too.  

So just take the easy way out and go infantry.


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## brihard (24 Feb 2005)

IMHO, extra snivel kit like socks, ranger blankets, extra rations, ETC are what I bought my nuke bag for. Granted, I'm a reservist with little experience, but having read many of the threads here I appreciate the need for having all your MISSION ESSENTIAL gear immediately on-hand. I NEED my Ammo. I NEED my pyro. I NEED my navigation tools. I (may) NEED Field Dressings (And bloody well better have 'em if I do). I NEED to carry my share of any Comms, section LMG ammo, or any other mission essential gear. Water can go on the back, or if you actually have the space (unlikely), carry a 2L.

I may need new socks, but I can survive without them for a little while. Besides that, I generally wear my Gortex socks anyway to make sure my feet'll stay dry. These and anything not on that list are wants, not needs. Only combat/mission essential kit should go in the Tac Vest, as space is at an absolute premium in that POS. 

I think the best compromise is to coordinate, at the section or platoon level, where that mission essential kit goes in the Tac-Vest. After that, anything else should be left to the individual. The combat pants have enough space left over for anything else you may need; notebook, your other couple of mags, etc.

thinking logically, in a combat situation, frigging with all the pockets to grab the gear would probably take longer than grabbing on the web handle at the top of the vest and jus dragging buddy to where you've got some cover. Absent that, jsut taking off his entire vest would probably be relavtively quick. I can think of very VERY few situations where one would be limited to rooting through each and every pouch and pocket individually while being shot at. I have to think in most cases it's easier to drag him to cover...


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## foerestedwarrior (24 Feb 2005)

Let me clarify, standarization of kit to include things like rainsuit complete, and all that weird crap, is usless, but, like I said, making everyone carry the same thing in the same way, forces say a C9/C6 gunner to compensate for the odd layout.


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## big bad john (24 Feb 2005)

You don't get it.  It means that you standarize as much as possible.  That is all C9 Gunners carry the same load in the same place on their vests, all battle dressings in the same place, no Yorkie bars in your compass pouch, ect..


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## JimmyPeeOn (25 Feb 2005)

As of now, our "Garrison wear"  (when the **** do you wear the TV in garrison? hehe)

Right side
2X c7 mag
1X Mag light
C13 
1 qt canteen horizontal or vertical (horizontal rocks!)
1Xsmoke
and in the front pouch
Wpn EIS sling (good luck with the "patrol" sling)
50' para cord
KFS
grey socks

lLeft side
2X C7mag
map/munchies
C13
C9 pouch is rain suit.  (total ******* hassle and i would rather get wet than have to put it back)
1X smoke
whistle (never seen it)
and in the front
Cbt golves(old style w/ liners)
Lypsol
Earplugs
Gas pouch sling
boot laces 
2Xfield dressing

Anyways, its ridiculous and once you get in the field you can do what you want as long as you have ammo water and what you need to bring a fight.


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## foerestedwarrior (25 Feb 2005)

big bad john said:
			
		

> You don't get it.   It means that you standarize as much as possible.   That is all C9 Gunners carry the same load in the same place on their vests, all battle dressings in the same place, no Yorkie bars in your compass pouch, ect..



I know that, I mean that to make everyone carry the same thing,in the same pouch, regardless of role is, IMO, wrong.


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## KevinB (26 Feb 2005)

BBJ - let me get this straight - you want to enforce placing all kit in the same area?

 I fail to see your logic - first aid stuff - to a point and mark it with a red cross - its pretty simple.
Mags - if I am scrurrying along the dead - I am taking their LBE compete not doign a fucking inventory of their OP150 kit list.  Once under cover I will sort out what is needed from not.
 My kit won't bear C9 ammo - so I'd need to lift the gunners LBE anyway.  This is why Matt Fisher and few others proposed the M203 grenadier belt - so one can grab it can the grenadiers wpn and go.


I'll add some other issue I think relevant - which came from a discussion over on the Lightfighter board - regarding E&E kit


my comments


> What exactly are we considering E&E here?
> 
> Is it gear to exist for a short space of time to assist you in evading contact - possibly doign first aid and rejoining friendlies?
> 
> ...



and Razor (as US #rd TF guy) 's responce



> Ah, Kevin pops the golden question. Along with that, what's your mission, and what is the disposition of forces around you? Truth is, very, very few folks will ever be in the position to be executing a 100km evasion in enemy-controlled territory, so why spend so much energy trying to plan for one? Far and away, most guys are conventional troops and are relatively close to friendly forces should they need to evade capture, so the focus should be as Kevin stated in #1--evade for a short period of time, apply medical aid as necessary, and fight like hell to link back up with the good guys. Shouldn't last more than 24-48hrs, tops. So, what would you need to do this? In a perfect world, a radio, spare ammo, and extra med supplies would do the trick. However, in all likelyhood if you're running for your life, you'll have what's on your fighting load and not much else. Really hope you have comms, though, as trying to effect a link-up in indian country without any comms would be really, really dicey.





So I will make a point that I think some of the ideals of everyone the same is not a valid as other beleive.

1) We get hit - and am either - trying to beat feet ASAP - or we are tryign to win the firefight and close with and destory the en.
 - until either is done I am not visiting the deadand wounded - unless a C9 gunner drops dead at my feet when we are closing and destroying - they I will simply take his wpn and LBE in addition to my own until I can pawn it off.


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## big bad john (26 Feb 2005)

Maybe it is different in Canada, please tell me if it is.  But when you start letting people decide how they will pack and load their belt kit, next they will decide what they want to carry.  "I really don't need a compass because the Cpl has a GPS and he has extra batteries so I don't need to carry any", ect..  Please consider that it not as easy to remove someones belt kit as you might think.  I have seen it done in an active situation.  Many times it is easier to remove what you need.  During the Great Yomp across East falkland for nearly 36 hours we survived on ammunition from our dead, wounded and what we could take from the Arggies.  You went through their kit and took what you needed.  Stripping Squaddies took twice as long as most of them customized their load.  Stripping Marines was simple you knew where and what they would be carrying.

All you need do is catch 1 Private carrying and wearing his Belt load differently once and the rest will conform.

My 2 pence.


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## KevinB (27 Feb 2005)

Usually I make it a point to try to soldier with troops that know what to pack - If one has to tell them what to pack I am not sure I want to be soldiering with them.


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## Fusaki (27 Feb 2005)

This is what I'm currently carrying in Kabul, Afghanistan...

Left C9 pouch - C9 ammo
Left smoke pouch - smoke, if issued.
Left grenade pouch - compass
Left utility pouch - foot powder gun taped shut, to use if I ever have to prod my way out of a mine field. Black electrical tape.
Left mag pouches - flex cuffs (an IR glowstick is also tied to my shoulder strap and tucked into a mag pouch when not in use)

Right utility pouch - field dressing, small bottle of hand sanitizer, spare batteries.
Right C9 pouch - MNVG
Right smoke pouch - field dressing and latex gloves
Right grenade pouch - small CLP bottle and rag
Right mag pouches - Green and IR glowsticks

PRR on my left shoulder
Camelbak on my back
Map in its pocket
Helmet clipped with a caribiner on my right side.
Bayonet worn on the front of the vest

A strict kit layout is not currently enforced in my unit, but you'd better have everything you need when the time comes. I don't know about you guys, but most people I work with have a field dressing in one of their smoke pouches. Its sort of an unofficial standardization. As for the rest of the stuff, I think I've cut my own kit list down to the bare minimum. I might be a little light on the ammo, but we never get too far from the LAV. Besides, the threat is from a handfull of fanatics, NOT the Red Army. The odds are I'll use flex cuffs and glowsticks before I burn 400 rounds 5.56.


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## big bad john (27 Feb 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> Usually I make it a point to try to soldier with troops that know what to pack - If one has to tell them what to pack I am not sure I want to be soldiering with them.



I wasn't aware that you could pick and choose who you serve with.


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## KevinB (27 Feb 2005)

big bad john said:
			
		

> I wasn't aware that you could pick and choose who you serve with.



No but you should not be deploying on operations with troops that can't find their ass with both hands.

ANY trained soldier should not need a kit list - they should learn through training and if they are still unsure a little NCO assistance as to should be brung and what should not.  

 In recent times (US) studies have found that soliders who can assemble their gear the way they want, that is the most ergonomically effective for them, and can gain muscle memory in that set up, will perform better under stress when one loses fine muscle control.


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## big bad john (27 Feb 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> No but you should not be deploying on operations with troops that can't find their ass with both hands.
> 
> ANY trained soldier should not need a kit list - they should learn through training and if they are still unsure a little NCO assistance as to should be brung and what should not.
> 
> In recent times (US) studies have found that soliders who can assemble their gear the way they want, that is the most ergonomically effective for them, and can gain muscle memory in that set up, will perform better under stress when one loses fine muscle control.


I was under the impression that most Soldiers under go OJT with their units, at least that is how it is in the UK.  Load list can be modified by units (Battalion level decision).

Muscle memory is gained by repetition The "Sellers Study" at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore determined that muscle memory can be gained by repetitious use and memory mapping.  Which is why blinded training is done.  That is for example stripping a weapon blindfolded ect..


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## KevinB (27 Feb 2005)

BBJ - no we get troops after they have done their Basic and Infantry Battleschool - no OJT - so they have about 9 months of "training" behind them - more often than not they then get sent on a month or longer Ex with the Bn about as soon as they arrive.

 In theory after that they should be able to make an informed decision as to what they ned to fight and die with - of course there are the obvious exceptions...

Much more recent studies of US SOF are highlighting certain issues - problem is it is not filtering down past the SO force (especially true in Canada)

Of course I have also seen a WO drop the ammo load out for his troops for it did not really fit the tacvest well   ???




Ghost - your right in principle - however what happens if the LAV gets hit - will you have time to grab your extra kit and go?   For a C9 gunner I find 400rds VERY light - even for an expected LIGHT opposition - sooner or later a bunch of folk that don't like us very much are going to hit a convoy - and watching the apathy level like they do - they will know exaclty how long they think you can stay in the fight, and how long the SLF ââ€žÂ¢ takes to deploy...



*SLF (Slow Reaction Farce) is a QRF trademark of RotoII B Coy 1PPCLI   ;D


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## KevinB (2 Mar 2005)

A different PSP vest (both CADPAT and CADPAT AR versions)

















and the Paraclete RAV and AR10T (gun porn for no real reason  )







FWIW the PSP vest is of MUCH higher quality than the issued one  : (go figure)


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## Infanteer (17 Mar 2005)

I'm just wondering if, with all the recent US experience in the sandbox, what their AAR's and Lessons Learned are saying about "wear your gear in the same place, troops".   It seems to be that they all (most) have some sort of modular PALS system and they add and subtract carrying capacity as needed - kinda pointless to issue out a modular load carriage system if you're going to put an "RSM strait-jacket" on them and make them all configure it in the same way.

Kit lists are important - you want to make sure all the bases are covered and not everyone in the Platoon is going to be a JTF assaulter - so it is important to cover the basics with a soldier proof method.   However, kit lists need to adhere to some form of packing discipline - from SLA Marshall's The Soldiers Load and the Mobility of a Nation to some recent US Army material that Kevin sent me, the obvious trend still exists that higher echelons like to load down the pointy end with too much junk, for both administrative and tactical loadouts.   I'm still trying to figure out why I deployed to Bosnia with fighting order, a ruck, two duffel bags, three barrack boxes, and a backpack; I don't think I even opened most of that shit while I was there.   This is dangerous if not properly observed, soldiers arrive wherever they need to go exhausted and unprepared for the fight.

So we give everyone a basic kit list (you - NVG's, batteries, 10 mags, 1 C-6 belt, couple frags, etc, etc).   Is it really necessary to tell everyone where to put everything?   I mean, most of that is quite intuitive (mags go in the mag pouches, Bloggins) while the rest, if required, can be hammered out in a section SOP (ok guys, lets have a bandage here - just in case someone wins an enemy marksmanship prize...).   

I mean, in an ideal setup,   there is only a few places that a guy can stick first-line gear; he's got a few pouches on his LBE   and a functional assault-pack/hydration carrier that he can dump the junk in (rats/socks/porn/support ammo).   Is a couple pouches really so complicated that it has to come with instructions?   I think Kevin has said that we're moving away from the "Pre-9/11" mentality of putting the kitchen sink on the first-line load out.   

It's funny how we in Canada have adopted "mission command" and "commander's intent" as part of our Maneuverist Doctrine yet we still insist on straight-jacketing our approach to loadouts.   With a decent kit list and some SOP's any small unit can have the Sergeant/Lt explain what the situation we'll be going into is and have the troops use their initiative and judgment (aren't these the magical things we are always trying to encourage?) to best figure out (or follow the lead of those who can) how to prepare for battle in the manner that suits their unique role, kit, physique, and preference.

Cheers,

Infanteer - who never makes Ding Chavez dress the same gear as the others.

(PS: Wait until I get my camera up and running and show of my new TacTailor A-Pack/Hellcat 3 porn....)


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## Canadian Sig (17 Mar 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> *SLF (Slow Reaction Farce) is a QRF trademark of RotoII B Coy 1PPCLI   ;D



  Kevin,

I'm pretty sure the French beat you to it. During Roto 0 A few of us sigs caught 2 locals stealing explosives from the Halo Trust demo range. We were out in the French sector so when we called to ask what to do with these two we were told that the French qrf would come and take them off our hands.........and 3 hours later they did! No wonder they did so well in both world wars! :threat:


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## KevinB (17 Mar 2005)

Yeah - but they showed up...


  Better than the Germans who's solution to those pesky folk who shoot that them was just not to patrol that area  - Hmm, more rocket attacks from the unpatrolled German sector - go figure  :



Infanteer -- The AAR's we have gotten at work seems to allow troops the leeway -- 
  We have A LOT of leeway at work and our chain is really diggin the WARRIOR / GUNFIGHTER mentality.   3VP brought Grossman by for the leadership symposium, and I cant say enough about him.


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## Gunnerlove (18 Mar 2005)

I am really looking forward to getting the small pack. Then I will have a place to stuff the misc junk I need to do my job as well as the rest of a decent ammo load.


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