# Those Germans are at it again...



## Ex-Dragoon (1 Jun 2008)

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3ad680d51a-98dd-4bca-bc02-b635e7457fe1

Submerged IDAS Missile Firing is Milestone for Undersea WarfarePosted by Joris Janssen Lok at 5/30/2008 7:39 AM CDT 
A German navy submarine has achieved a major milestone in undersea warfare by successfully test firing a fiber-optically-guided IDAS (Interactive Defense and Attack system for Submarines) missile from a submerged position yesterday.
The test was performed by the U33, the third of Germany's ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems-built U 212 class of air-independent propulsion submarines, in the western part of the Baltic Sea May 29. 
IDAS, developed by a consortium of Diehl Defence [the missile], TKMS (HDW) [submarine integration] and Norwegian company Kongsberg Defence & Aerospace [U 212 command & control system integration], showed a "convincing performance" during all phases of the flight, a statement from Diehl says.
"After updating the missile´s inertial system by the submarine's navigation system, the missile was ejected from the torpedo tube. Under water it spread its wings and rudders and started its engine to break through the water surface a few seconds later, ascending to a pre-planned altitude to move into a controlled flight stage," the statement says. 
Differing from an operational scenario, the test was ended in a controlled glide flight. During the entire flight, data and images of a video camera were transmitted to the submarine via the fiber-optical wire. 
According to Diehl, the test firing proves that IDAS can be employed from a submerged submarine. "All mechanical interfaces proved reliable while data transmission via optical wave guide functioned smoothly," the company says.
High-ranking Navy officers from several interested countries witnessed the event as observers on an accompanying vessel.
With the test firing from a submerged submarine, the IDAS consortium, in a joint effort with the German Navy as well as the German defense procurement agency BWB, passed a further milestone in this program – nine months earlier than foreseen in the contract, Diehl says.

The next steps in the IDAS project consist of "drawing up outstanding phase documents and initializing the international development program."
IDAS is designed to allow a submerged submarine to attack an anti-submarine warfare helicopter (which is particularly vulnerable when it is deployed in a hover operating its active dipping sonar), or slow-flying maritime patrol aircraft.
The missile, launched from standard torpedo tubes, is also suited to perform a precision attack against a pinpoint position on a surface ship (such as the bridge or a helicopter on deck) or against a target ashore.
How should we rate this new capability and what will it mean to undersea and anti-submarine warfare in general and to the operation of active dipping sonar helicopters in particular? Let us know what you think in the comments.


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## FSTO (1 Jun 2008)

Not good for A/C.  For years the aircraft could fly with impunity over the sub and prosecute once it was found. Now that the sub can shoot back, that will cause a pause for the ASWC. But does the sub take out an airplane thus giving away its position or try to work through for a more enticing HVU.


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## aesop081 (1 Jun 2008)

FSTO said:
			
		

> Now that the sub can shoot back, that will cause a pause for the ASWC.



I dont know......seems to me like a missile shooting up out of the water marks the datum pretty well.


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## SeaKingTacco (1 Jun 2008)

Yep.

Cert Sub!


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## aesop081 (1 Jun 2008)

"send out the sea king" can become the ASW version of "#1 riffleman stand up"

 ;D


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## blacktriangle (1 Jun 2008)

Interesting careers for me:

Clown
AESop
Daycare worker

God bless all of you!


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## Ex-Dragoon (2 Jun 2008)

FSTO said:
			
		

> Not good for A/C.  For years the aircraft could fly with impunity over the sub and prosecute once it was found. Now that the sub can shoot back, that will cause a pause for the ASWC. But does the sub take out an airplane thus giving away its position or try to work through for a more enticing HVU.



Actually its believed certain classes of Russian submarines are armed with SA7s or SA14s. I believe at one time certain UK subs had Blowpipe or they were experimenting with it.


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## FSTO (2 Jun 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I dont know......seems to me like a missile shooting up out of the water marks the datum pretty well.



I think I mentioned that at the end of my post! ;D


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## a_majoor (5 Jun 2008)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Actually its believed certain classes of Russian submarines are armed with SA7s or SA14s. I believe at one time certain UK subs had Blowpipe or they were experimenting with it.



I don't have a reference, but I also remember reading about some experimental rig where the Blowpipe launcher was attached to the periscope to prosecute anti-aircraft engagements.

While interesting, if I were the captain of the boat I would have to think long and hard about where and when to use such a device; unless it was lanched by a shkvall, or the submarine had the ability to sprint out of there at very high speed (like an Alpha class? faster even?), then you will bring even more heat on yourself once the weapon is away.......


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## Ex-Dragoon (5 Jun 2008)

Most submariners that I know will sell their souls to remain undetected but in the even they are detected and cannot evade, then they should have the ability to either eliminate or drive off the aircraft.


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## Rodahn (5 Jun 2008)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> "After updating the missile´s inertial system by the submarine's navigation system, the missile was ejected from the torpedo tube. Under water it spread its wings and rudders and started its engine to break through the water surface a few seconds later, ascending to a pre-planned altitude to move into a controlled flight stage," the statement says.



But then it may also be possible for the missile to navigate underwater for a period of time prior to breaking the waters surface and proceeding on to it's intended target. Therefore the sub would not necessarily give away it's exact location.


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## aesop081 (5 Jun 2008)

Rodahn said:
			
		

> But then it may also be possible for the missile to navigate underwater for a period of time prior to breaking the waters surface and proceeding on to it's intended target. Therefore the sub would not necessarily give away it's exact location.



It certainly reduces the size of the search area for ASW forces though


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## drunknsubmrnr (6 Jun 2008)

The RN and Israelis had a modified Blowpipe system that replaced the radar mast. It worked OK, but the conclusion was that it was better to leave an HVU "flaming datum" than a helo. The Russian boats have a firing step for a small SAM, but I doubt it's used much. It can only be used when the boat is surfaced.

There is a requirement for a submarine weapons system smaller than a HWT, but I don't think this is the solution. It'll be very expensive.


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## Greymatters (6 Jun 2008)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Actually its believed certain classes of Russian submarines are armed with SA7s or SA14s. I believe at one time certain UK subs had Blowpipe or they were experimenting with it.



They were only deployed while on the surface so arent really the same thing...


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## Navy_Blue (9 Jun 2008)

Obviously they are not going to come out and tell us the range these weapons can reach out and touch someone.  What kind of range do you guys expect a missile like this to achieve?  I have no Idea  ???

If the range was significant say 20 to 30 miles and the Sub had a means of receiving real time data through a fitted antenna they could drive the missile to the area and prosecute the target from a safe distance/depth.  Its the 21st century we have satellites and any number of Intel gathering gear.  If the info can be passed to a Sub at depth which it should be capable of.  It really becomes a question of how much band width the Subs fitted coms gear could give them to give split second changes.  I've been told the Kippers V and T boats have limited band width for the crew to have internet access from operational depth.  If that's the case targeting data could be passed on from other sources to a Sub.

Does this missile have any ability to track a target beyond the Fiber Optics?  ie: Infared or radar?? If you had range you could drive these missiles around the back way skimming the surface then pop up and really mess with they're minds.

These guys are running AIP and have no need to surface for many days let alone come to Periscope depth to attack anything.  

For you guys in the ASW world how easy is it to see a floating antenna (baring any OPSPEC)?? Again I have no Idea. 

I'm in the under water community now but I really have very little knowledge of what a real ASW search would look like.


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## drunknsubmrnr (10 Jun 2008)

You *really* don't want to speculate on range for this in an open forum. However, if you ask your TI nicely and buy him a beer, he might give you some informed speculation on ranges that a wire or fiber-optic guided tube launched weapon could achieve. Or not. If you're impertinent or the TI is feeling cranky you'll probably find yourself volunteering for a tube crawl, so I highly recommend buying him a beer first.

Bandwidth depends on the carrier frequency you're using. The bandwidth you've mentioned would need UHF, which could only be done through a surface penetrating mast, probably an A/N-BRA. You can get HF through a floating trailing antenna on the surface, and LF through a submerged trailing antenna, but I don't think we've ever used LF. The HF floating antenna is rarely used, since it usually gets wrapped around the screw at some point. If you have questions on this, feel free to buy a comm tech a beer. They'll be so amazed anyone actually cares, they'll tell you more than you ever wanted to know. Trust me on that one.

I'm pretty sure AIP boats still have to carry out domestics every day or two, and they'd have to change the air, copy the broadcast etc so they'll have to come to PD sometimes.


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