# What to Say?A Message From Major Baker



## MAJOR_Baker (28 Aug 2003)

I toyed around all day with what I wanted to say to everyone on this board.   Having only recently joined, I am not sure what to think....I have enjoyed some of the insight I have been reading about the state of the Canadian Armed Forces, however I have been dismayed at the number of offhanded remarks about the US President, the US and it's government, people, and military!   I am not saying my nation is perfect, far from it, what I do grow tired of is the inflammatory remarks I read in the press and I have seen on this website.   Good natured bantering can be healthly, it can point out many stereotypes people have of one another.   What is not healthy is the sort of demonizing of the US military and it's government that I have heard as of late.   I liken it to the blame the victim, a woman is raped because she was wearing provocative clothing, similar to the terrorist attack on the world trade center, the US deserved it because of so and so......I make no apologies for what my country does, I am not a politician, I am a soldier that follows lawful orders, which don't include torturing somali teenagers.    Remember this, I like to debunk several theories; before there was a Vietnam there was a French Indo-China, before there was an Israel, there was a British-Palestine mandate, and before there was a WWII, there was a WWI, care of yours and my european cousins.   Please remember that the next time you level your critisism


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## Spr.Earl (28 Aug 2003)

Sherwood for starter‘s don‘t take thing‘s to heart

I have worked with your Military off and on since 76 and have seen the change‘s for the good and bad.

Over all we Canadian‘s like our Big Cousin to the south but get a bit Pee Oed when your Gov. push‘s it‘s weight around,especialy with out thinking and when it concern‘s us.

  You are more than welcome to rebut any comment here you find unfare.


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## Mike Bobbitt (28 Aug 2003)

I‘m going to stick my neck out and be the first to reply... [Edit: Looks like Spr.Earl beat me to that!]

First of all, welcome aboard, it‘s good to see some international influence here.

I‘ll keep my remaining comments brief, I‘m sure this thread will cover a lot of ground as it develops.

I have no doubt there are denegrating comments here regarding the U.S., some of which are ill informed but all of which are opinions. For the most part, we‘re stuck with what the media feeds us in terms of opinions, and the media is pretty consistent in capturing just part of the overall picture. (Your oblique reference to the CAR in Somolia is a good example of this.)

I‘d also like to inject some balance to your arguments by pointing out that 76% of voters in this poll supported the war effort:

  http://army.ca/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=000076  

Ultimately, I think you‘ll find that nearly all of us here support the US soldiers in their current mission. Less may support the concept of the mission itself, and fewer still the administration that put it in place, but that‘s somewhat beside the point from a soldier‘s perspective. (Especially a Canadian soldier‘s perspective.)

Well, I‘ll cut it off there, and thanks for the interesting debate. Hopefully we can keep this as friendly banter...!

Cheers


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## Jarnhamar (29 Aug 2003)

It‘ll be great to have some counter arguments and points of view from an american just for the love of god don‘t talk about the JTF 

Gives little guys like me a complex heh

"which don‘t include torturing somali teenagers" Or are better at covering your a$$s when you do


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## muskrat89 (29 Aug 2003)

I have a unique perspective. I grew up in a New Brunswick border town. I spent 13 years in the Canadian Army, eventually married an American gal, moved to the US, divorced the American gal, and married another one (this one stuck)      I grew up with the common Canadian perceptions of the US. many of these, I eventually learned, were mis-perceptions. On the other hand, I have seen the US from the other side of the border, and feel that I have a better knack, now, for picking out the legitimate beefs. I have seen some of what the "rest of the world" sees, and doesn‘t like, about the US. Often, broad generalizations, and stereotypes - from both sides, prove to be inaccurate or misinformed. Just as you might expect, with any subject. Interestingly, I often find myself defending Americans on the Canadian boards, and defending Canadians on the American boards... I guess that‘s what it is, when you‘re a nomad, like me...


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## Spr.Earl (29 Aug 2003)

See,Sherwood we are not all that bad EH?   

Please dont leave because of the miss informed or the ignorent,as we have both in our Country as in Your‘s.

We are all Brother‘s and Sister‘s in Arm‘s.   

Mike set up this site for constcrutive debate and so far it has worked vey well.

Here in Canada we can dabate the Prime Minister‘s
mistake‘s and foible‘s were as in the State‘s as a member of the Military you can‘t question the Commander in Chief due to your Miitary Code of Conduct.(so much for free speach)

But on this site you can say anything you want!!
Welcome and don‘t be shy.
Constructive critisism and debate create‘s new thought and action‘s.


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## Michael Dorosh (29 Aug 2003)

A search of my posts will reveal my continued defence of the United States of America, for its role in our own defence now, and in the vital role they played as our ally in the Second World War.  They continue to be our best friends, trading partners, and allies - as well as our security blanket, and our only real way of protecting ourself should Canada ever face a truly dire threat.  Sad but true.  I can‘t think of anyone I‘d rather have defending us if it came to that.

I still liken "them" and "us" to the bad cop and good cop in the world.  I think we‘ve grown pretty good at our respective roles.


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## McInnes (29 Aug 2003)

Yes, more alike to older and younger brothers. I think the main reason why most people in Canada are so quick to bash the US, is because Canada relies so much on the US for...well pretty much everything. It‘s pretty irksome when you read articles on why Canada doesnt deserve to be a country, written by americans, and your fellow country-men.


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## Gunnar (29 Aug 2003)

Part of the problem is that Canada has for a long, long time, identified itself as "not American".  We are so culturally similar that it‘s easy to take umbrage at the comparison to Americans...this can degenerate into unfair criticisms and comments on the US in general.  I‘ve caught myself doing it on occasion.  It‘s easy to bash a foreign country from the safety of your own, after all...

So, just so you know, not all American beer is like making love in a canoe (I‘ve drunk a lot of it), not all of your TV shows are written for the lowest common denominator (I grew up watching US programming, like most of Canada), and not every military unit is worse trained than the comparable Canadian unit (in spite of the war stories told to me by Canadians).

Canada is largely a free country because of the influence of the US on our culture, and because of the big stick the US carries.  I need to be reminded once in a while, but not to the detriment of my own pride in MY country.

I was in the US once and heard an American make a comment on Canada that cut me to the quick.  I remember how insulted I was.  I also remember how annoyed I was that I had no rejoinder because he happened to be speaking the truth.

And yet, a good part of Canadian culture is armchair quarterbacking, complaining about how the rest of the world *should* do things, without doing much to back it up.  

As far as our own politics, or ability to act?  Well, do whatever you want on the international stage, just don‘t remove a hockey commentator from the national TV network!  That‘ll really get us riled!


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## Danjanou (29 Aug 2003)

See Major we‘re a friendly bunch. 

Like many others here and Canadians in general I have plenty of family and friends south of the border.

Like others here too I spent plenty of time training and working with your military when I was in, for the most part enjoyed and even learned a thing or two.

Our countries are for better or worse linked with common geography and history. Can‘t change that, and to be honest probably wouldn‘t want to either.

I think that exposure is what makes us more educated in regards to our neighbours.

It‘s a shame but I think a lot of the ignorance on both sides of the border is from a simple lack of knowledge.

I for one have met plenty of Americans and have yet to find more than one or two (out of hundreds)that fit the sterotypical image up here of a "gun toting bible thumping bigoted good ole boy redneck."

Likewise I‘m sure you, based on your comments don‘t see us all as "American hating, rabid socialists, with an inferiority complex" or "beer swilling touque wearing morons who live in igloos and say eh all the time."

Some do though and perhaps even deliberately provoke and strenghen the sterotypes for their own reasons. For example, the views on CNN of the recent blackout. They showed people evacuating the subways in NYC, lining up for candles etc in Buffalo and Detroit. When they came to Toronto though it was a clip of hosers lined up at the beer store.

Any ways as others have said we hope you‘ll stick around and offer your perspectives here. 

Now we just have to get you to adjust your computers spell check to Canadian English. Just kiddin eh, we might even let you drink the good 5% beer.


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## GrahamD (29 Aug 2003)

> Canada is largely a free country because of the influence of the US on our culture, and because of the big stick the US carries. I need to be reminded once in a while, but not to the detriment of my own pride in MY country.


More importantly was the war of 1812 when the United States tried to take a large portion of Canada away from the Britsh Loyalists, who were then settling Upper and Lower Canada.  That war resulted in the Canadians driving out the Americans and then procceeding to burn down the White House.  

  We offered up our own soldiers in WW1 and WW2, also during Korea.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don‘t remember a time when the USA rescued Canada from enemy forces attempting to invade our land.  Its kind of frusterating to me that people are so quick to say that we owe our freedom and independance to the Americans, just because we are neighbors and allies, and they happen to be a super power.  There isn‘t a country I can think of that has actively sought to possess Canada‘s land or resources, that has only been thwarted because of US involvement.

  It‘s always been hypothetical, if the US wasn‘t our friend, we would be overrun by (some mysterious country out there who must have a secret navy, and airforce large enough to bring such overwhelming numbers of invaders that we couldnt defend ourselves, because our military is so small).  What about the hypothetical scenario where our enlistment skyrockets, and most every man woman and child takes up arms and defends Canada?  I would hypothesise that we would quickly have #‘s in the millions of people ready to fight, in the face of a full scale invasion.

I would need an example of a country (besides the USA, and besides anyone in the commonwealth because that just isn‘t relevant) that would possess the neccessary means to even land enemy troops in any kind of force on our soil, before I could ever lend any weight whatsoever to the notion that the Americans keep us safer.  Transport aircraft would be anhilated by our cf-18‘s, as would most sea going vessels before they ever got within 200 miles of our coast.  Enemy forces who actually reached land would be in for a lot of travelling, with a lot of guerilla style resistance along the way. Military, militia, Rangers, farmers, hunters, even kids with .22‘s I would wager.  I just don‘t see the invasion of Canada being even remotely possible by anyone besides the USA.


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## nbk (29 Aug 2003)

Its interesting that some of you Canadians identify with the United States as "Brothers". I guess I have a different life experiences which make me embrace our European grandmothers and grandfathers much closer then our US brothers.

Growing up in Eurpean countries like Germany and a short time in Norway, I was constantly bombarded by US tv and movies, yet I never considered those countries like the USA.

So for me I consider Canada as Canada, quite different from the USA, as I know many countries have US culture forced upon them. 

When I hear of people like George Bush, say they (Terrorists) are attacking "our freedom" I always hear it as attacking "America‘s freedom". I feel completely safe in Canada, and I am secure that Canada is not a target for foreign terrorists. 

In fact I‘d go so far as to say I identify with our brothers and sisters in the Mideast. Canada and countries like Iraq, Iran or Saudi Arabia ar underdogs, and the US is the one who is the overdog (I don‘t know if that is the correct term). I feel more in common with the people in these countries then I do with the Americans. We live in the shadow of the Americans, as they do.

It reminds me of Germany, Austria and Switzerland. Germany is clearly the most powerful of the three, so Austrians identify more with Swiss more then they do with Germans.


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## Gunnar (29 Aug 2003)

By saying that Canada owes its freedom to the US by proximity, I wasn‘t saying that the US was defending us militarily from a hostile universe.  Rather, because of the cultural bleed-over, that Canada tends to value freedom and individualism as a direct result of our Big Brother.  Peace, Order, and Good Government don‘t necessarily imply freedom.

We owe much of our freedoms to our British heritage, but we owe a fair bit to our American cousins as well.  Simply by proximity, they influence our culture and our political process.  That‘s all I‘m saying.


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## Jungle (29 Aug 2003)

LOL...   





> Transport aircraft would be anhilated by our cf-18‘s,


OK... but the invaders have to come during daylight... our Hornets (and pilots) are not very good at night. Only a few planes are now equipped with decent night-fighting kit.


> as would most sea going vessels before they ever got within 200 miles of our coast.


And WHO would do that ? with half our Navy deployed and the other half strapped to the docks, unmanned...


> Enemy forces who actually reached land would be in for a lot of travelling, with a lot of guerilla style resistance along the way.


Resistance from who ??? Nobody will be outside if it‘s cold, or raining, or if there‘s a hockey game on...
Let‘s face it, we have a hard time deploying a Battalion for training, we‘re not gonna do any better in the confusion of battle.


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## Staff (29 Aug 2003)

I just got here myself, but welcome Maj. I have worked with the American military fairly extensively. I have never had a problem with any of them. Nobody is perfect though.

GrahamD: In WWI and WWII we were supporting the U.K. in Korea we were operating under a U.N. mandate. So I don‘t know why you think this is relevant. The rest of what you say is all HYPOYHETICAL, so how can you REALLY(I haven‘t figured out how to underline, so yes, the capitals were neccessary)voice this opinion,or at least what seems to be the opinion that we have no need of our brothers to the South.

NBK: While the Europeans were definately the founders of our country, the United States are much closer to us than anyone from across the pond. "Cross-polinization" across the Canada-U.S. border, since the inception of both our nations, has been a much larger influence on our country than any European nation. Prety much what Gunnar said, but I agree with him.


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## Staff (29 Aug 2003)

Aquick amendment to my last.

The old lady tells me that capitals means I‘m yelling. Sorry for those with sensitive ears.

I said before that I had no problems with the Americans I‘ve worked with. That‘s not true. Hearing "HUAH" every thirty seconds got kind of stale after about five minutes."Rangers lead the way!" Huah.


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## GrahamD (29 Aug 2003)

> GrahamD: In WWI and WWII we were supporting the U.K. in Korea we were operating under a U.N. mandate. So I don‘t know why you think this is relevant. The rest of what you say is all HYPOYHETICAL, so how can you REALLY(I haven‘t figured out how to underline, so yes, the capitals were neccessary)voice this opinion,or at least what seems to be the opinion that we have no need of our brothers to the South.


My point is, is that  historicaly when we are called upon to fight along side our allies, we make up our own mind to do so, we send our own troops and equipment.  We don‘t wait for approval or help from the Americans.  We don‘t beg them to go do our fighting for us, so that we can watch the hockey game (as Jungle would have you belive).  We‘ve never needed to be bailed out by the Americans, they have never prevented us from being invaded, so I don‘t see why we should constantly give them credit for being "our big brother", and for keeping us safe.

  It‘s not just in this forum that I encounter this opinion, it‘s everywhere, even my girlfriend seems to think that we would be lost without the Americans.  I just don‘t understand why people believe this to be true.

It‘s not to say that I don‘t like Americans, or that I think our friendly relationship isn‘t a valuable one.  It‘s just that in "reality" Canada does just fine in global politics, we have a good reputation, and I can‘t think of a single nation we could consider an enemy of "ours" (not Americans) that poses any real threat to our national security.

Sure "hypotheticaly" our military is insufficient to fend off a determined, prolonged assault by some "hypothetical" army, who "hypotheticaly" has the capability of even getting enough military resources onto our shores to take over Newfoundland.  Really though, who cares, its obviously not going to happen.

Do we "NEED" the Americans in terms of having their military might to defend us?   Well, defend us from who?  The answer, in my opinion is no.

Should we value the Americans as strong allies and friends?  Of course.


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## Devlin (29 Aug 2003)

Major:

Reference your comment:   





> which don‘t include torturing somali teenagers.


I would suggest if you have time read the journals section at the following site  Commando.org

I had the typical media stained attitude towards the 
airborne regiment until I read through these and got more info. It‘s a real shame that the actions of a few led to the shut down of such a proud regiment.

If my tone comes of as a little brash I apologize, but I have the distinct pleasure of serving with members of that once great regiment.


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## Bill Smy (1 Sep 2003)

I agree with the words of welcome, but I would like to correct a couple of statements of historical fact made by GrahamD.

Today, most of the historians who study the War of 1812 do not attribute the defeat of the American invasion to Canadian militia, but rather to the regular British Army, although the militia were in most of the engagements in various numbers (at Queenston they outnumbered the British, at Lundy‘s Lane they were so few in number that they had virtually no role to play in the battle).

Second, there were no Canadians at the burning of the White House -- that expedition was totally British.


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## Danjanou (1 Sep 2003)

Bill I take it you‘ve read Pierre Berton‘s two part history of the war where he disputes the popular myth that it was the Canadian farmer/militiaman that tossed down his axe, picked up a musket and repelled the Yankee invaders.

There is a school of thought that the most effective/important force was the Native Indians, both actually used and the mere threat of them 
(Michimillanic Detroit, Queenston)

British regulars, and Canadian Fencible regiments were the backbone of the defence. Interestingly the militia (often with Indians) were most effectively used as flank guards and to harras US formations and supply trains as at the lead up to the battle of Detroit and in the Niagara region after the US occupied it in 1813.

The exception of course is at Chateuguay where an all Canadian (mostly militia and mostly French canadian) force beat an American force. 

Any ways sorry to hijack the thread there, and I‘m not knocking you or your country here Major.


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## radop211tc (2 Sep 2003)

Im not going to get into a pissing contest with the good ole Maj as I am more than positive that he will beat me hands down but I do like how you inject the Somali incident. I am sure that more than a few committed some nasties in Vietnam.

I think you really got it wrong, when most of us refer to the US as an attack of your people/military.
My wife is American and she slams the Pres,everytime she reads or see‘s him on tv, so I guess she Unpatriotic. I guess she should take down the US Flag, she proudly has hanging up.
I do Thank You sir, for me realizing, that I should suck back my attitude towards the Government for disbanding a Great & Proud Unit,one that I had hoped one day I would be part of, one of the few reasons I chose to retire early from the military, as the Gov, took one of my dreams away.
Prior to today, after years of crying over spilt milk, that I had made a Major mistake getting out, Ive decided to get this body back in fighting order and attempt at rejoining the military. For the government, I dont think so. For my buds that are overworked, constantly on tours because of the government. At least, if I can take a tour or two or three, to give someone a break, I will get gratification from it.

I dont really care if I get slammed, I cleared my chest and a Canadian Flag will be beside the US one soonest.

Tc...
VVV


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## Devlin (2 Sep 2003)

Not sure how to respond to the last comment here. WWII was an unfortunate event in everyone‘s history. Though I am no history expert I am sure Canadians are not the only ones who strayed outside the lines during this War. 

Any of the history buffs on the board here care to respond to the Majors‘ story.

    :soldier:


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## Jungle (2 Sep 2003)

One instance I heard about was with the "Regt de la Chaudière", from the 3rd CDN Div. During the Northwest Europe campaign, their Padre was killed by enemy fire. On the next day, the CO issued orders not to take prisonners for 24 hours. This was meant as a way to avenge their Padre.


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## GrahamD (2 Sep 2003)

When I was in high school, I learned about a situation in the Pacific theater of WW2 that I have never heard about either before or since.

  It was about the Japanese treatment of Canadian captured and wounded.  We were essentially guarding an island (I forget which) as a direct favor to the British, who were supposed to send reinforcements.  They stalled and stalled, and eventually a major assault was launched on the island.  Naturally, with insufficient troops, I belive the figure was in the low thousands, the island was overrun.  The Japanese executed casualties in their hospital beds, and forced the healthy troops into camps, which were very much like concentration camps.  Conditions were worse than those camps in Europe however and many died.  I was shown pictures of the survivors, taken during the days of their liberation, and they are disturbing.

I also learned about a man named Adolph Hitler who was the leader of the Nazi party.  The party who came up with "The final solution, to the Jewish question".  Germany, or rather the German people,  instead of doing something about this extremist group running their country, decided to instead, either blatently support them, or hide in their turtle shell of cowardice and support them through enablement.  I believe they executed upwards of 6 million people. This only after they plunged most of Europe into a war that killed millions more, and destroyed lives and families all over the world.

A German prisoner was shot you say? By some Canadians?  Lucky for that prisoner he wasn‘t captured in the Soviet Union, and its a good thing he wasn‘t born Jewish and rounded up by his war buddies to be murdered, possibly after having some mad science tested out on him in Hitlers disgusting medical experiment program.

P.S. Here are some interesting facts I just looked up that sort of relate to the first point I made, they are mostly US facts though.  There are worse things than not being allowed to surrender.


> World War II
> Japan‘s Prisoner of War (POW) Camps
> Basic Facts
> U.S. prisoners of war held by the Empire of Japan, 1941-1945 died at a rate exceeding 37% while in captivity. On the other hand, U.S. prisoners of war held captive by Nazi Germany died at a rate of less than 2% while held by the Germans. (Based on figures from Center For Internee Rights).
> ...


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## Michael Dorosh (2 Sep 2003)

The island in question would be Hong Kong, and yes Canadian troops were executed in their beds.

Japan was not a signatory to the Geneva Convention (neither were the Soviet Union, incidentally).


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## Deleted member 585 (2 Sep 2003)

Jungle... L O L.  Thanks for the comic relief.

Cheers.     

EDIT: Cripes!  I refer above to your post from the first page... not to your latest post, on this page... which I obviously missed. *Groan*


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## OLD SCHOOL (10 Sep 2003)

The major is correct in that the negative comments and barbs have no place here.
I would venture that as a group Canadians hang out like teenagers,that is, stupid in a group,
feeding off one comment to the next. Forgetting about softwood lumber, I would like to just remember the personal relationships between soldiers during my career. Everything from splitting a mars bar into 12 pieces on a Ranger course to feed my brothers to sniping with a U.S SGT. for 7 hours straight until one scored over the other. And let us not forget gucci kit and more gucci kit. Ft. Bragg is a second home. Yes, Americans need to broaden their world view and turn off CNN but look at the morons we elect in Canada to run our Country. Stupid in a group but to a man we are loyal to each other. On 9/11, our population opened up their arms to Americans and they lived in our houses for days while stranded.Our Gov. handled everyhing in true idiot fashion but the people reacted with loyalty to a man.All B.S aside, this will always be the case. Loyalty and brotherhood. On a job a month ago I got coined by an American politician and it cost me $165. I love him like a brother even if I don‘t agree with him on much.
Just one opinion Major.


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## nULL (10 Sep 2003)

Another thing about Canadians...like everyone else, a good lot of them think that they, as individuals,  have the answers to the country‘s problems, and would be so much better up on Parliament Hill. "Stop bitching and become an MLA" is something everyone should remember.


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## GerryCan (12 Sep 2003)

I also have to agree with Spr. Earl on this one, you definetely can‘t take everything to heart that is posted here, some may be a little more disheartening than others but we‘re all adults right? One thing I DON‘T agree with, was the low blow about the CAR torturing a somali teenager blah blah blah etc. etc....It seems we‘ll pay for that for a long time to come, but don‘t for a second think we‘re the only ones guilty of such things...I mean no offense, but Americans have one of the sketchiest track records of this sort and most of it coming from one war...but regardless, why even state a complaint of anti-americanism if you‘re just going to retaliate along the same lines and pretty much cancel one another out.


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## nbk (13 Sep 2003)

*Ahem*

The vast majority of Germans ddi not know about the concentration camps until the war was over. Even te soldiers (with the likely exeption of the SS and camp guards) had no idea.

It is easy too look back on everything and wonder how the German people could have allowed all this to happen, but you have to remember most Germans were unaware of just how bad things were. And most were too scared of the Gestapo to speak out if they did not agree with everything. 

By that same rational, you could blame Iraqi‘s for all the atrocities that Saddam and the Ba‘ath party were responsible for.

And remember there was lots of propaganda at the front line level in World War 2. Remember the story of the crucified Canadian soldier in World War one, and how the exact same story came out in World War two?


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## Duotone81 (13 Sep 2003)

> but regardless, why even state a complaint of anti-americanism if you‘re just going to retaliate along the same lines and pretty much cancel one another out.


That‘s a good point.


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## Walter Brunszwick (13 Sep 2003)

nbk, I don‘t exactly recall, but I do believe that the vast majority of German civilans knew about the German concentration camps. However, the could not do anything, for they would be shot. It was a brutal war.


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## Jarnhamar (14 Sep 2003)

Bowling for colombine, great documentry of what i saw of it so far. People should take a look.


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