# Re: Defence: Canadian Alliance Style



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Garett Hallman <ghallman@nbnet.nb.ca>* on *Sun, 05 Nov 2000 20:45:11 -0400*
That thing is 55 pages long.  Someone should sum it up for me because I‘m
lazy.
dave wrote:
> Before I go rambling on about this subject, I thought it may be good to
> inform members on the list of a comprehensive Canadian Alliance Defence
> paper online at www.unitedalt.org  "Canada Strong and Free - A Defence
> Strategy For The New Millennium.
>
> Dave Willard
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com>* on *Sun, 05 Nov 2000 16:45:03 -0700*
Thanks to Dave for giving us the URL on the Reform oops Alliance
election platform. Two things strike me, one military and the other
which is, I believe a voice crying in the wilderness more important:
the national debt.
The Ontario Party oops Liberals will reduce the debt by $3 billion per
year and the Alliance by $6 billion. Isn‘t that nice? Drop in the
bucket. The one thing we can be sure about is that there will be another
economic recession with Dubya coming in, if he does on Tuesday night,
sooner than you think. Keynes‘ General Theory, that all leaders in the
developed nations pay lip service to, in summary, says that you overtax
surplus in good times to be able to overspend in bad times. So, when
bad times come, defence spending will be viewed again as pump priming
pork barrel employment handouts first, second, and as needed for defence
policy a distant third.
Which leads me to the Alliance web site. They promise to increase
defence spending by $2 billion per year. They don‘t say where the money
will go specifically, but then no other party ever does at election
time. They do seem to be trying to cover all bases ie. all voting
regions and even mention new funds but no specifics of course for
naval ship building program. Well, that should swing a few votes in St.
John, NB at least. Does our navy need more ships? Well, I guess if we
were to ask our brothers and sisters in the Senior Service they would
say, "well, yes, of course, some of our new frigates are what? 15
years old or so already." So, a chicken in every defence pot and a boat
in every driveway.
In some senses I kind of wish the old international communist party was
still around. At least they had a real Plan. just kidding, just
kidding!
Oh, and in closing, message to John. Your Lib‘s haven‘t gone out and
purchased those helecopters yet. As of a couple of weeks ago they were
still determining how to spec the choppers and one potential bidder was
screaming that they were going to spec it so his firm EH101? couldn‘t
bid. I think it‘s not until the spring at least before tenders will be
issued. So, don‘t hold your breath waiting for Sea King replacements.
Pity that soap boxes are made of cardboard and not wood anymore.
Climbing down for tonight, I remain
Your ob svt
Ian G. Edwards, esq.
dave wrote:
> 
> Before I go rambling on about this subject, I thought it may be good to
> inform members on the list of a comprehensive Canadian Alliance Defence
> paper online at www.unitedalt.org  "Canada Strong and Free - A Defence
> Strategy For The New Millennium.
> 
> Dave Willard
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Sun, 5 Nov 2000 20:12:39 -0500*
Doh!
John
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ian Edwards" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 6:45 PM
Subject: Re: Defence: Canadian Alliance Style
> Thanks to Dave for giving us the URL on the Reform oops Alliance
> election platform. Two things strike me, one military and the other
> which is, I believe a voice crying in the wilderness more important:
> the national debt.
> 
> The Ontario Party oops Liberals will reduce the debt by $3 billion per
> year and the Alliance by $6 billion. Isn‘t that nice? Drop in the
> bucket. The one thing we can be sure about is that there will be another
> economic recession with Dubya coming in, if he does on Tuesday night,
> sooner than you think. Keynes‘ General Theory, that all leaders in the
> developed nations pay lip service to, in summary, says that you overtax
> surplus in good times to be able to overspend in bad times. So, when
> bad times come, defence spending will be viewed again as pump priming
> pork barrel employment handouts first, second, and as needed for defence
> policy a distant third.
> 
> Which leads me to the Alliance web site. They promise to increase
> defence spending by $2 billion per year. They don‘t say where the money
> will go specifically, but then no other party ever does at election
> time. They do seem to be trying to cover all bases ie. all voting
> regions and even mention new funds but no specifics of course for
> naval ship building program. Well, that should swing a few votes in St.
> John, NB at least. Does our navy need more ships? Well, I guess if we
> were to ask our brothers and sisters in the Senior Service they would
> say, "well, yes, of course, some of our new frigates are what? 15
> years old or so already." So, a chicken in every defence pot and a boat
> in every driveway.
> 
> In some senses I kind of wish the old international communist party was
> still around. At least they had a real Plan. just kidding, just
> kidding!
> 
> Oh, and in closing, message to John. Your Lib‘s haven‘t gone out and
> purchased those helecopters yet. As of a couple of weeks ago they were
> still determining how to spec the choppers and one potential bidder was
> screaming that they were going to spec it so his firm EH101? couldn‘t
> bid. I think it‘s not until the spring at least before tenders will be
> issued. So, don‘t hold your breath waiting for Sea King replacements.
> 
> Pity that soap boxes are made of cardboard and not wood anymore.
> Climbing down for tonight, I remain
> Your ob svt
> Ian G. Edwards, esq.
> 
> dave wrote:
> > 
> > Before I go rambling on about this subject, I thought it may be good to
> > inform members on the list of a comprehensive Canadian Alliance Defence
> > paper online at www.unitedalt.org  "Canada Strong and Free - A Defence
> > Strategy For The New Millennium.
> > 
> > Dave Willard
> > 
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
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----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Sun, 5 Nov 2000 20:53:40 -0500*
Geez, Ian, a pretty good line of chat....
as long as you come from a fat-cat bad ***  province, like Alberta...
When the Grits cut the funding through transfer payments, Alberta sailed
through it better than almost anyone else not through economic theory or
genius at any level, but because they happened to be in "boom" at the time
and date.
Your neighbour, Saskatchewan, came to the point of the Premier phoning the
PM to say they‘d gone broke.
Any Maritimers out there?  Did this National Debt reduction work for you?
Lets not kid ourselves, either, about St Johns getting ship building
contracts...Quebec gets them and I know Albertans would vote for the Devil
himself, if it would ‘burn‘ Quebec.  The big losers in ship building, in
fact, come from St Catherines, Welland and Port Colbourne close to that
river that runs NORTH, not south.
Okay, so last election, most people in Ontario saw fit to vote
Grits...that‘s their right, if I‘m not mistaken.  It does not make the Lib‘s
the Ontario Party, UNLESS you want to call the Alliance the ALBERTA
party..sauce for the goose, anyone?
The Libs have reduced the debt by far more than the 3 Billion, or the
proposed 6 billion....any decent accountant can make numbers dance around to
any theme he as in mind, and I for one, don‘t buy this story line.  Show me
a few less people living in the streets.  Show me a serviceman who had
his/her wage boosted to abandon the Food Bank or the second job.  Show me a
PRes type that stayed for the real money, on his/her attachment to some far
off and distant land...and maybe had a job when they came back...but not in
Alberta, that‘s too easy lets try some of the tougher regions of the
country, where life‘s not so smooth.
Personally, I‘d just like to see one of your retired Alliance Generals,
bedecked in his golden parachute, commune with one of the Corporals that was
not offered advancement, pay, prestige and promotion, who got to go to these
far off and exotic places such as Somalia, Rwhanda, Namibia, Vietnam, Haiti,
Bosnia etc, when times were not good, leadership may have been in doubt,
support was little if at all, and explain career paths and the number of
gongs, and amount of compensation.
Any step to a replacement of the Sea King is a positive one.  So far, the
only people I see making that are the Liberals.  How many more good men do
you need to hear about dying because it might cost each taxpayer a couple of
dollars over one year to fit them with survivable equipment?  Again, go into
that MCpl‘s home, look at the family members skimping along with far less
than so-called typical Canadians, and advise the widow and children that
Dad‘s thundered in, in unfit equipment?
God Damn it Ian, lets pay the lousy nickel and spare this scenario!  You
wind me right up by being this cheap.  Whatever the Parties say
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian Edwards" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 6:45 PM
Subject: Re: Defence: Canadian Alliance Style
> Thanks to Dave for giving us the URL on the Reform oops Alliance
> election platform. Two things strike me, one military and the other
> which is, I believe a voice crying in the wilderness more important:
> the national debt.
>
> The Ontario Party oops Liberals will reduce the debt by $3 billion per
> year and the Alliance by $6 billion. Isn‘t that nice? Drop in the
> bucket. The one thing we can be sure about is that there will be another
> economic recession with Dubya coming in, if he does on Tuesday night,
> sooner than you think. Keynes‘ General Theory, that all leaders in the
> developed nations pay lip service to, in summary, says that you overtax
> surplus in good times to be able to overspend in bad times. So, when
> bad times come, defence spending will be viewed again as pump priming
> pork barrel employment handouts first, second, and as needed for defence
> policy a distant third.
>
> Which leads me to the Alliance web site. They promise to increase
> defence spending by $2 billion per year. They don‘t say where the money
> will go specifically, but then no other party ever does at election
> time. They do seem to be trying to cover all bases ie. all voting
> regions and even mention new funds but no specifics of course for
> naval ship building program. Well, that should swing a few votes in St.
> John, NB at least. Does our navy need more ships? Well, I guess if we
> were to ask our brothers and sisters in the Senior Service they would
> say, "well, yes, of course, some of our new frigates are what? 15
> years old or so already." So, a chicken in every defence pot and a boat
> in every driveway.
>
> In some senses I kind of wish the old international communist party was
> still around. At least they had a real Plan. just kidding, just
> kidding!
>
> Oh, and in closing, message to John. Your Lib‘s haven‘t gone out and
> purchased those helecopters yet. As of a couple of weeks ago they were
> still determining how to spec the choppers and one potential bidder was
> screaming that they were going to spec it so his firm EH101? couldn‘t
> bid. I think it‘s not until the spring at least before tenders will be
> issued. So, don‘t hold your breath waiting for Sea King replacements.
>
> Pity that soap boxes are made of cardboard and not wood anymore.
> Climbing down for tonight, I remain
> Your ob svt
> Ian G. Edwards, esq.
>
> dave wrote:
> >
> > Before I go rambling on about this subject, I thought it may be good to
> > inform members on the list of a comprehensive Canadian Alliance Defence
> > paper online at www.unitedalt.org  "Canada Strong and Free - A Defence
> > Strategy For The New Millennium.
> >
> > Dave Willard
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
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----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Sun, 5 Nov 2000 21:20:25 -0500*
Reference my comment that Alberta "sailed through it"
Maybe I should point out that Ralphie decided that better than to take any
heat himself, lets screw every nurse in the province...and if that means
Albertans get screwed right along with them, at least I‘ll show a
surplus/deficit reduction, so what the hey?  Witness a massive nurses strike
in Alberta, that Ralph blithely sailed though, and be damned to any patient
that died and/or suffered since small "c" conservatives, like Ralphie or
Ly‘in Brian have the good sense to use their millions to desert to the USA
"Do you think I‘d let my Mother be at risk?"  Remember that video bite?
She went to a Florida hospital...
So PULLLEEASE...don‘t say that this is the western solution to a country‘s
problems just be nice, give the blame to Ralph, who is a fat cat, and could
lterally not care less and "Stock", his buddy who engineered this for him?
Well, lets let an electorate make their own choices, by the circumstances
they find themselves in... and just get on with reality.
And then cut the bul**** and define the northern, eastern, non-fat cat
solutions. even if you have to pony up a bit of cash,,,
Perception is different, depending where you see an issue from...
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gow" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 8:53 PM
Subject: Re: Defence: Canadian Alliance Style
> Geez, Ian, a pretty good line of chat....
>
> as long as you come from a fat-cat bad ***  province, like Alberta...
>
> When the Grits cut the funding through transfer payments, Alberta sailed
> through it better than almost anyone else not through economic theory or
> genius at any level, but because they happened to be in "boom" at the time
> and date.
>
> Your neighbour, Saskatchewan, came to the point of the Premier phoning the
> PM to say they‘d gone broke.
>
> Any Maritimers out there?  Did this National Debt reduction work for you?
>
> Lets not kid ourselves, either, about St Johns getting ship building
> contracts...Quebec gets them and I know Albertans would vote for the
Devil
> himself, if it would ‘burn‘ Quebec.  The big losers in ship building, in
> fact, come from St Catherines, Welland and Port Colbourne close to that
> river that runs NORTH, not south.
>
> Okay, so last election, most people in Ontario saw fit to vote
> Grits...that‘s their right, if I‘m not mistaken.  It does not make the
Lib‘s
> the Ontario Party, UNLESS you want to call the Alliance the ALBERTA
> party..sauce for the goose, anyone?
>
> The Libs have reduced the debt by far more than the 3 Billion, or the
> proposed 6 billion....any decent accountant can make numbers dance around
to
> any theme he as in mind, and I for one, don‘t buy this story line.  Show
me
> a few less people living in the streets.  Show me a serviceman who had
> his/her wage boosted to abandon the Food Bank or the second job.  Show me
a
> PRes type that stayed for the real money, on his/her attachment to some
far
> off and distant land...and maybe had a job when they came back...but not
in
> Alberta, that‘s too easy lets try some of the tougher regions of the
> country, where life‘s not so smooth.
>
> Personally, I‘d just like to see one of your retired Alliance Generals,
> bedecked in his golden parachute, commune with one of the Corporals that
was
> not offered advancement, pay, prestige and promotion, who got to go to
these
> far off and exotic places such as Somalia, Rwhanda, Namibia, Vietnam,
Haiti,
> Bosnia etc, when times were not good, leadership may have been in doubt,
> support was little if at all, and explain career paths and the number of
> gongs, and amount of compensation.
>
> Any step to a replacement of the Sea King is a positive one.  So far, the
> only people I see making that are the Liberals.  How many more good men do
> you need to hear about dying because it might cost each taxpayer a couple
of
> dollars over one year to fit them with survivable equipment?  Again, go
into
> that MCpl‘s home, look at the family members skimping along with far less
> than so-called typical Canadians, and advise the widow and children that
> Dad‘s thundered in, in unfit equipment?
>
> God Damn it Ian, lets pay the lousy nickel and spare this scenario!  You
> wind me right up by being this cheap.  Whatever the Parties say
>
> John
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ian Edwards" 
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 6:45 PM
> Subject: Re: Defence: Canadian Alliance Style
>
>
> > Thanks to Dave for giving us the URL on the Reform oops Alliance
> > election platform. Two things strike me, one military and the other
> > which is, I believe a voice crying in the wilderness more important:
> > the national debt.
> >
> > The Ontario Party oops Liberals will reduce the debt by $3 billion per
> > year and the Alliance by $6 billion. Isn‘t that nice? Drop in the
> > bucket. The one thing we can be sure about is that there will be another
> > economic recession with Dubya coming in, if he does on Tuesday night,
> > sooner than you think. Keynes‘ General Theory, that all leaders in the
> > developed nations pay lip service to, in summary, says that you overtax
> > surplus in good times to be able to overspend in bad times. So, when
> > bad times come, defence spending will be viewed again as pump priming
> > pork barrel employment handouts first, second, and as needed for defence
> > policy a distant third.
> >
> > Which leads me to the Alliance web site. They promise to increase
> > defence spending by $2 billion per year. They don‘t say where the money
> > will go specifically, but then no other party ever does at election
> > time. They do seem to be trying to cover all bases ie. all voting
> > regions and even mention new funds but no specifics of course for
> > naval ship building program. Well, that should swing a few votes in St.
> > John, NB at least. Does our navy need more ships? Well, I guess if we
> > were to ask our brothers and sisters in the Senior Service they would
> > say, "well, yes, of course, some of our new frigates are what? 15
> > years old or so already." So, a chicken in every defence pot and a boat
> > in every driveway.
> >
> > In some senses I kind of wish the old international communist party was
> > still around. At least they had a real Plan. just kidding, just
> > kidding!
> >
> > Oh, and in closing, message to John. Your Lib‘s haven‘t gone out and
> > purchased those helecopters yet. As of a couple of weeks ago they were
> > still determining how to spec the choppers and one potential bidder was
> > screaming that they were going to spec it so his firm EH101? couldn‘t
> > bid. I think it‘s not until the spring at least before tenders will be
> > issued. So, don‘t hold your breath waiting for Sea King replacements.
> >
> > Pity that soap boxes are made of cardboard and not wood anymore.
> > Climbing down for tonight, I remain
> > Your ob svt
> > Ian G. Edwards, esq.
> >
> > dave wrote:
> > >
> > > Before I go rambling on about this subject, I thought it may be good
to
> > > inform members on the list of a comprehensive Canadian Alliance
Defence
> > > paper online at www.unitedalt.org  "Canada Strong and Free - A Defence
> > > Strategy For The New Millennium.
> > >
> > > Dave Willard
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > message body.
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"dave" <dave.newcombe@home.com>* on *Sun, 5 Nov 2000 18:55:41 -0800*
Vote Don Cherry for PM, at least he tries to tell the truth as he sees it
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Sun, 5 Nov 2000 23:25:05 -0500*
Had not heard he was running.
And a Mississauga man too...
Of course, you‘d have to learn enough to read about how a leader is elected
by is Party before he can runas a legitimate leader candidate.  But by your
other posts, one can hardly be surprised.
Wake up, Dave!
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "dave" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 9:55 PM
Subject: Re: Defence: Canadian Alliance Style
> Vote Don Cherry for PM, at least he tries to tell the truth as he sees it
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Bruce Williams" <Williabr@uregina.ca>* on *Sun, 5 Nov 2000 23:11:06 -0600*
----- Original Message -----
From: "Garett Hallman" 
> That thing is 55 pages long.  Someone should sum it up for me because I‘m
> lazy.
The portion on Defence is 3 paragraphs as follows:
Defence
53. We are committed to restoring tradition and pride in Canada‘s military.
We will protect our country‘s sovereignty, uphold our international and
alliance obligations, and ensure internal safety and security. To meet these
responsibilities, we will fund, train and equip the Canadian Armed Forces to
be combat capable to fulfil the multi-purpose role of the Army, Navy and Air
Force . The number of Reserve personnel should be at least equal in number
to the Regular force.
54. Our top priority will be to ensure the operational effectiveness of the
Canadian Forces. Therefore, we will require that all programs, procurement
and command structures be cost-effective, and will eliminate unnecessary
bureaucracy. We support the development of a general mobilization plan.
55. We will ensure better cooperation among Canada‘s intelligence and
security agencies to more effectively protect Canadians against internal and
external security and economic threats in a changing and unstable global
environment.
Para 53 sounds good in theory. I notice no time scale for implementation.
Para 54 a general mobilization plan..haven‘t we been here before?
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"dave" <davidwillard@home.com>* on *Mon, 6 Nov 2000 00:57:54 -0500*
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gow" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 8:53 PM
Subject: Re: Defence: Canadian Alliance Style
Lighten Up Mr.Gow

    If by being on this means, means you are a military person then you 
are one of us, amongst allies. Telling me "to shake my head and take a 
breath" or telling Ian he is being cheap smells like a smart ***  to me. 
There are certain ones of us who have spent our whole lives living this 
game and in many cases are still involved in one sort or another. A 
little mutual respect amongst comrades in arms goes a long way. As for 
your misguided Liberal leanings...I expect when you get a little more 
mature your gained wisdom will turn some lights on for you. You won‘t 
even have to shake your head or take a breath
> Geez, Ian, a pretty good line of chat....
>
> as long as you come from a fat-cat bad ***  province, like Alberta...
>
> When the Grits cut the funding through transfer payments, Alberta 
sailed
> through it better than almost anyone else not through economic theory 
or
> genius at any level, but because they happened to be in "boom" at the 
time
> and date.
>
    Do you actually believe that this time frame you are referring to 
just "happened."  Do you think perhaps the climate created by a fiscal   
          conservative administration may just have had something to do 
with it?
>
Your neighbour, Saskatchewan, came to the point of the Premier phoning 
the
> PM to say they‘d gone broke.
>
    Not so surprising, after all they did have an NDP administration
>
Any Maritimers out there?  Did this National Debt reduction work for 
you?
> The Lords of the Realm Liberals have not really done anything yet 
about debt reduction they have managed to eliminate the deficit riding 
on funds they stole from the military pension fund, RCMP fund, dollars 
they kept from cutbacks in defence, healthcare and anything else that 
moved or stood still, combined with the highest taxation of the people 
of any other industrialized nation on planet earth.
Lets not kid ourselves, either, about St Johns getting ship building
> contracts...Quebec gets them and I know Albertans would vote for the 
Devil
> himself, if it would ‘burn‘ Quebec.  The big losers in ship building, 
in
> fact, come from St Catherines, Welland and Port Colbourne close to 
that
> river that runs NORTH, not south.
All Alberta wants is a fair method of tendering and distributing federal 
contracts. I agree the areas you mention should get some of the gravy as 
well.
>
> Okay, so last election, most people in Ontario saw fit to vote
> Grits...that‘s their right, if I‘m not mistaken.  It does not make the 
Lib‘s
> the Ontario Party, UNLESS you want to call the Alliance the ALBERTA
> party..sauce for the goose, anyone?
Over the last 25 or so years Ontario has seen a massive expansion in 
population mostly from non-traditional source countries. It also seen a 
massive industrial expansion from companies fleeing from oppressive 
language laws in Quebec. The area mostly affected is what everyone now 
refers to as the 905 area. These south asian and mid east nationalities 
seen Canada as a real booming place offering extensive Liberal and NDP 
social handouts unlike any area of the world. Free this, and free that, 
family relocation programmes so every third cousin also had a real good 
shot at getting in and getting part of the goodies. Of course these 
people would vote Liberal, just as long as the freebees keep coming 
their way. A big mistake we made through the Charter and our so called 
multicultural mosaic is the fact that the immigration industry here in 
Canada and abroad touts that they may keep and practice their own 
culture which we have also funded. You may have heard or read about 
two Sihks being arrested this past week over the Air India disaster. We 
have actually set up the perfect haven for these terrorists. Canada BC 
can now boast having the largest Sihk seperatist organization in the 
world who are dedicated to  armed revolution to establish the 
Independant state of Kalistan and break up India.
I know I have digressed with this one but it ties directly into Liberal 
policies and laws that have made us the nice easy place to come to. Even 
the UN has voted I think 3 times that we are the most wonderful place on 
planet earth as we had run deficits and accured billions in debt by 
giving it away being nice guys.
>
> The Libs have reduced the debt by far more than the 3 Billion, or the
> proposed 6 billion....any decent accountant can make numbers dance 
around to
> any theme he as in mind, and I for one, don‘t buy this story line.  
Show me
> a few less people living in the streets.  Show me a serviceman who had
> his/her wage boosted to abandon the Food Bank or the second job.  Show 
me a
> PRes type that stayed for the real money, on his/her attachment to 
some far
> off and distant land...and maybe had a job when they came back...but 
not in
> Alberta, that‘s too easy lets try some of the tougher regions of the
> country, where life‘s not so smooth.
There is a sense of expectation with many younger people today that did 
not exist a generation ago. Lets keep to the military here but much is 
the same with civvy youth as well. I the sixties and early seventies the 
average private did not own a car or expect to marry before he paid his 
dues and received promotion or a decent salary that he could live on. 
Today it seems there is a sense of right to do these things regardless  
of one‘s situation,  planning, or lack of it. When a person joins the 
army he doesn‘t or shouldn‘t do it expecting union style pay increases. 
It can be a well paid living providing one does his job well and gets 
promoted on a timely basis based on his performance. In other words you 
can expect to take out what you put in. I was involved doing a study 
some years ago on why emergency financial situations manifested 
themselves in the army. Overwhemingly it was poor judgement and in some 
cases no personal financial management at all. Don‘t get me wrong here, 
I‘m all for regularly reviewed and decent compensation for the troops 
but the troops have a personal responsibilty to live within their means.
As for the tougher regions of the country...you go where the work is 
just like the Indians following the buffalo.
>
> Personally, I‘d just like to see one of your retired Alliance 
Generals,
> bedecked in his golden parachute, commune with one of the Corporals 
that was
> not offered advancement, pay, prestige and promotion, who got to go to 
these
> far off and exotic places such as Somalia, Rwhanda, Namibia, Vietnam, 
Haiti,
> Bosnia etc, when times were not good, leadership may have been in 
doubt,
> support was little if at all, and explain career paths and the number 
of
> gongs, and amount of compensation.
>
    We are indeed top-heavy with officers, especially Generals 
collecting big salaries. We have all been screaming blue murder for some 
years now and I don‘t know what will change that except a government 
that will get involved with a strong minister who will take the bull by 
the horns. You may however be interested in the fact that Gen Clive Addy 
Ret‘d resigned early because he would not tolerate the corruption and 
leadership or lack of dogma. He is supporting the Alliance along with 
Col Sean Henry more affectionately referred to as the soldiers advocate. 
Both these gentlemen are men of exceptional integrity and have the best 
well being of the armed forces in their hearts.
> Any step to a replacement of the Sea King is a positive one.  So far, 
the
> only people I see making that are the Liberals.  How many more good 
men do
> you need to hear about dying because it might cost each taxpayer a 
couple of
> dollars over one year to fit them with survivable equipment?  Again, 
go into
> that MCpl‘s home, look at the family members skimping along with far 
less
> than so-called typical Canadians, and advise the widow and children 
that
> Dad‘s thundered in, in unfit equipment?
>
 In fact your Liberals, namely Jean Chretien, campaigned and won with 
the cancellation of the EH-101 as one of his primary issues. A non 
caring, apathetic and ignorant Canadian electorate bought his bull****. 
He said the machine was too expensive and elaborate. Defence experts 
have confirmed that for the criteria that was issued for a SAR machine 
the EH-101 was the only machine capable of filling the requirements. You 
may be interesed in knowing that much of this criteria was based on the 
SAR operation at Alert that cost several lives due to the limitations of 
our current machines. It is widely agreed that the EH-101 would have had 
the capabilty to have affected a rescue given it‘s all weather capabilty 
with it‘s 3 engines and appropriate power. Your friend JC also paid out 
read wasted over $5,000,000.00 in contract cancellations. Now there‘s 
good competent governance for you, Liberal governance.>
> God Damn it Ian, lets pay the lousy nickel and spare this scenario!  
You
> wind me right up by being this cheap.  Whatever the Parties say
>
> John
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ian Edwards" 
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 6:45 PM
> Subject: Re: Defence: Canadian Alliance Style
>
>
> > Thanks to Dave for giving us the URL on the Reform oops Alliance
> > election platform. Two things strike me, one military and the other
> > which is, I believe a voice crying in the wilderness more 
important:
> > the national debt.
> >
> > The Ontario Party oops Liberals will reduce the debt by $3 billion 
per
> > year and the Alliance by $6 billion. Isn‘t that nice? Drop in the
> > bucket. The one thing we can be sure about is that there will be 
another
> > economic recession with Dubya coming in, if he does on Tuesday 
night,
> > sooner than you think. Keynes‘ General Theory, that all leaders in 
the
> > developed nations pay lip service to, in summary, says that you 
overtax
> > surplus in good times to be able to overspend in bad times. So, 
when
> > bad times come, defence spending will be viewed again as pump 
priming
> > pork barrel employment handouts first, second, and as needed for 
defence
> > policy a distant third.
> >
> > Which leads me to the Alliance web site. They promise to increase
> > defence spending by $2 billion per year. They don‘t say where the 
money
> > will go specifically, but then no other party ever does at election
> > time. They do seem to be trying to cover all bases ie. all voting
> > regions and even mention new funds but no specifics of course for
> > naval ship building program. Well, that should swing a few votes in 
St.
> > John, NB at least. Does our navy need more ships? Well, I guess if 
we
> > were to ask our brothers and sisters in the Senior Service they 
would
> > say, "well, yes, of course, some of our new frigates are what? 15
> > years old or so already." So, a chicken in every defence pot and a 
boat
> > in every driveway.
> >
> > In some senses I kind of wish the old international communist party 
was
> > still around. At least they had a real Plan. just kidding, just
> > kidding!
> >
> > Oh, and in closing, message to John. Your Lib‘s haven‘t gone out and
> > purchased those helecopters yet. As of a couple of weeks ago they 
were
> > still determining how to spec the choppers and one potential bidder 
was
> > screaming that they were going to spec it so his firm EH101? 
couldn‘t
> > bid. I think it‘s not until the spring at least before tenders will 
be
> > issued. So, don‘t hold your breath waiting for Sea King 
replacements.
> >
> > Pity that soap boxes are made of cardboard and not wood anymore.
> > Climbing down for tonight, I remain
> > Your ob svt
> > Ian G. Edwards, esq.
> >
> > dave wrote:
> > >
> > > Before I go rambling on about this subject, I thought it may be 
good to
> > > inform members on the list of a comprehensive Canadian Alliance 
Defence
> > > paper online at www.unitedalt.org  "Canada Strong and Free - A 
Defence
> > > Strategy For The New Millennium.
> > >
> > > Dave Willard
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > message body.
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gow" ltjgow@home.comgt
To: ltarmy@cipherlogic.on.cagt
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 8:53 PM
Subject: Re: Defence: Canadian Alliance
Style
Lighten Up Mr.Gow

 If by being on this means, 
meansyou
are a military person then you are one of us, amongst allies. Telling me 
"to
shake my head and take a breath" or telling Ian he is being cheap smells 
like a
smart ***  to me. There are certain ones of us who have spent our whole 
lives
living this game and in many cases are still involved in one sort or 
another. A
little mutual respect amongst comrades in arms goes a long way. As for 
your
misguided Liberal leanings...I expect when you get a little more mature 
your
gained wisdom will turn some lights on for you. You won‘t even have to 
shake
your head or take a breath 
gt Geez, Ian, a pretty good line of 
chat....gt
gt as long as you come from a fat-cat bad ***  province, like
Alberta...gt gt When the Grits cut the funding through 
transfer
payments, Alberta sailedgt through it better than almost anyone 
else not
through economic theory orgt genius at any level, but because they 
happened to be in "boom" at the timegt and date.gt 
 Do you actually believe that 
this time
frame you are referring to just "happened." Do you think perhaps 
the
climate created by a fiscal  
 conservative administration may just have had 
something to do
with it?gt 
Your neighbour, Saskatchewan, came to the point of 
the Premier
phoning thegt PM to say they‘d gone broke.gt 
 Not so surprising, after all 
they did
have an NDP administrationgt 
Any Maritimers out there? Did this National 
Debt
reduction work for you?
gt The Lords of the Realm Liberals have 
not really
done anything yet about debt reduction they have managed to eliminate 
the
deficit riding on funds they stole from the military pension fund, RCMP 
fund,
dollars they kept from cutbacks in defence, healthcare and anything else 
that
moved or stood still, combined with the highest taxation of the people 
of any
other industrialized nation on planet earth.
Lets not kid ourselves, 
either, about St
Johns getting ship buildinggt contracts...Quebec gets them and I 
know
Albertans would vote for the Devilgt himself, if it would ‘burn‘
Quebec. The big losers in ship building, ingt fact, come 
from St
Catherines, Welland and Port Colbourne close to thatgt river that 
runs
NORTH, not south.
All Alberta wants is a fair method of tendering 
and
distributing federal contracts. I agree the areas you mention should get 
some of
the gravy as well.
gt gt Okay, so last election, most people in Ontario 
saw fit to
votegt Grits...that‘s their right, if I‘m not mistaken. It 
does not
make the Lib‘sgt the Ontario Party, UNLESS you want to call the 
Alliance
the ALBERTAgt party..sauce for the goose, anyone?
Over the last 25 or so years Ontario has seen a massive 
expansion in
population mostly from non-traditional source countries. It also seen a 
massive
industrial expansion from companies fleeing from oppressive language 
laws in
Quebec. The area mostly affected is what everyone now refers to as the 
905 area.
These south asian and mid east nationalities seen Canada as a real 
booming place
offering extensive Liberal and NDP social handouts unlike any area of 
the world.
Free this, and free that, family relocation programmes so every third 
cousin
also had a real good shot at getting in and getting part of the goodies. 
Of
course these people would vote Liberal, just as long as the freebees 
keep coming
their way. A big mistake we made through the Charter and our so called
multicultural mosaic is the fact that the immigration industry here in 
Canada
and abroadtouts that they may keep and practice their own culture 
which
we have also funded. You may have heard or read about two Sihks being 
arrested
this past week over the Air India disaster. We have actually set up the 
perfect
haven for these terrorists. Canada BCcan now boast having the 
largest
Sihk seperatist organization in the world who are dedicated to 
armed
revolution to establish the Independant state of Kalistan and break up
India.
I know I have digressed with this one but it ties directly into 
Liberal
policies and laws that have made us the nice easy place to come to. Even 
the UN
has voted I think 3 times that we are the most wonderful place on planet 
earth
as we had run deficits and accured billions in debt by giving 
itaway being
nice guys.gt gt The Libs have reduced the debt by 
far
more than the 3 Billion, or thegt proposed 6 billion....any decent 
accountant can make numbers dance around togt any theme he as in 
mind, and
I for one, don‘t buy this story line. Show megt a few less 
people
living in the streets. Show me a serviceman who hadgt 
his/her wage
boosted to abandon the Food Bank or the second job. Show me 
agt PRes
type that stayed for the real money, on his/her attachment to some 
fargt
off and distant land...and maybe had a job when they came back...but not 
ingt Alberta, that‘s too easy lets try some of the tougher 
regions of
thegt country, where life‘s not so smooth.
There is a sense of expectation with many younger people today 
that did
not exist a generation ago. Lets keep to the military here but much is 
the same
with civvy youth as well. I the sixties and early seventies the average 
private
did not own a car or expect to marry before he paid his dues and 
received
promotion or a decent salary that he could live on. Today it seems there 
is a
sense of right to do these things regardless of one‘s 
situation,
planning, or lack of it. When a person joins the army he doesn‘t or 
shouldn‘t do
it expecting union style pay increases. It can be a well paid living 
providing
one does his job well and gets promoted on a timely basis based on his
performance. In other words you can expect to take out what you put in. 
I was
involved doing a study some years ago on why emergency financial 
situations
manifested themselves in the army. Overwhemingly it was poor judgement 
and in
some cases no personal financial management at all. Don‘t get me wrong 
here, I‘m
all for regularly reviewed and decent compensation for the troops but 
the troops
have a personal responsibilty to live within their means.
As for the tougher regions of the country...you go where the 
work is
just like the Indians following thebuffalo.gt 
gt
Personally, I‘d just like to see one of your retired Alliance 
Generals,gt
bedecked in his golden parachute, commune with one of the Corporals that 
wasgt not offered advancement, pay, prestige and promotion, who 
got to go
to thesegt far off and exotic places such as Somalia, Rwhanda, 
Namibia,
Vietnam, Haiti,gt Bosnia etc, when times were not good, leadership 
may
have been in doubt,gt support was little if at all, and explain 
career
paths and the number ofgt gongs, and amount of 
compensation.gt
 We are indeed top-heavy with officers, 
especially
Generals collecting big salaries. We have all been screaming blue murder 
for
some years now and I don‘t know what will change that except a 
government that
will get involved with a strong minister who will take the bull by the 
horns.
You may however be interested in the fact that Gen Clive Addy Ret‘d 
resigned
early because he would not tolerate the corruption and leadership or 
lack of
dogma. He is supporting the Alliance along with Col Sean Henry more
affectionately referred to as the soldiers advocate. Both these 
gentlemen are
men of exceptional integrity and have the best well being of the armed 
forces in
their hearts.
gt Any step to a replacement of the Sea King is a positive 
one.
So far, thegt only people I see making that are the 
Liberals. How
many more good men dogt you need to hear about dying because it 
might cost
each taxpayer a couple ofgt dollars over one year to fit them with 
survivable equipment? Again, go intogt that MCpl‘s home, 
look at the
family members skimping along with far lessgt than so-called 
typical
Canadians, and advise the widow and children thatgt Dad‘s 
thundered in, in
unfit equipment?gt
In fact your Liberals, namely Jean Chretien, campaigned 
and won
with the cancellation of the EH-101 as one of his primary issues. A non 
caring,
apathetic and ignorant Canadian electorate bought his bull****. He said 
the
machine was too expensive and elaborate. Defence experts have confirmed 
that for
the criteria that was issued for a SAR machine the EH-101 was the only 
machine
capable of filling the requirements. You may be interesed in knowing 
that much
of this criteria was based on the SAR operation at Alert that cost 
several lives
due to the limitations of our current machines. It is widely agreed that 
the
EH-101 would have had the capabilty to have affected a rescue given it‘s 
all
weather capabilty with it‘s 3 engines and appropriate power. Your friend 
JC also
paid out read wasted over $5,000,000.00 in contract cancellations. Now 
there‘s
good competent governance for you, Liberal 
governance.gt
gt God Damn it Ian, lets pay the lousy nickel and 
spare this
scenario! Yougt wind me right up by being this cheap. 
Whatever
the Parties saygt gt Johngt gt ----- Original 
Message
-----gt From: "Ian Edwards" ltiedwards@home.comgtgt To: ltarmy@cipherlogic.on.cagtgt 
Sent: Sunday,
November 05, 2000 6:45 PMgt Subject: Re: Defence: Canadian 
Alliance
Stylegt gt gt gt Thanks to Dave for giving us the 
URL on the
Reform oops Alliancegt gt election platform. Two things strike 
me, one
military and the othergt gt which is, I believe a voice crying 
in the
wilderness more important:gt gt the national debt.gt 
gtgt
gt The Ontario Party oops Liberals will reduce the debt by $3 
billion
pergt gt year and the Alliance by $6 billion. Isn‘t that nice? 
Drop in
thegt gt bucket. The one thing we can be sure about is that 
there will
be anothergt gt economic recession with Dubya coming in, if he 
does on
Tuesday night,gt gt sooner than you think. Keynes‘ General 
Theory, that
all leaders in thegt gt developed nations pay lip service to, in 
summary, says that you overtaxgt gt surplus in good times to 
be able
to overspend in bad times. So, whengt gt bad times come, defence 
spending will be viewed again as pump priminggt gt pork barrel
employment handouts first, second, and as needed for defencegt 
gt policy
a distant third.gt gtgt gt Which leads me to the 
Alliance web
site. They promise to increasegt gt defence spending by $2 
billion per
year. They don‘t say where the moneygt gt will go specifically, 
but then
no other party ever does at electiongt gt time. They do seem to 
be
trying to cover all bases ie. all votinggt gt regions and even 
mention
new funds but no specifics of course forgt gt naval ship 
building
program. Well, that should swing a few votes in St.gt gt John, 
NB at
least. Does our navy need more ships? Well, I guess if wegt gt 
were to
ask our brothers and sisters in the Senior Service they wouldgt 
gt say,
"well, yes, of course, some of our new frigates are what? 15gt 
gt
years old or so already." So, a chicken in every defence pot and a 
boatgt
gt in every driveway.gt gtgt gt In some senses I kind 
of wish
the old international communist party wasgt gt still around. At 
least
they had a real Plan. just kidding, justgt gt kidding!gt 
gtgt gt Oh, and in closing, message to John. Your Lib‘s 
haven‘t gone
out andgt gt purchased those helecopters yet. As of a couple of 
weeks
ago they weregt gt still determining how to spec the choppers 
and one
potential bidder wasgt gt screaming that they were going to spec 
it so
his firm EH101? couldn‘tgt gt bid. I think it‘s not until the 
spring
at least before tenders will begt gt issued. So, don‘t hold your 
breath
waiting for Sea King replacements.gt gtgt gt Pity that 
soap
boxes are made of cardboard and not wood anymore.gt gt Climbing 
down for
tonight, I remaingt gt Your ob svtgt gt Ian G. Edwards,
esq.gt gtgt gt dave wrote:gt gt gtgt 
gt gt
Before I go rambling on about this subject, I thought it may be good 
togt
gt gt inform members on the list of a comprehensive Canadian 
Alliance
Defencegt gt gt paper online at www.unitedalt.org "Canada Strong and Free - A Defencegt gt gt 
Strategy For
The New Millennium.gt gt gtgt gt gt Dave 
Willardgt
gt gtgt gt gt
--------------------------------------------------------gt gt 
gt
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a messagegt 
gt gt
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the 
account you
wishgt gt gt to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in
thegt gt gt message body.gt gt
--------------------------------------------------------gt gt
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a messagegt 
gt to
majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the 
account you
wishgt gt to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in 
thegt
gt message body.gt gt
--------------------------------------------------------gt 
NOTE: To
remove yourself from this list, send a messagegt to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the 
account you
wishgt to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in thegt 
message
body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Mon, 6 Nov 2000 01:48:35 -0500*
I remain totally surprised at how differently countymen can look at the 
same country.
Yes, I did just under 20 years with the PRes.  Yes, my father and my 
uncles did serve the country in WWII.   Yes my Grandfather did serve in 
WWI, including getting gassed at Ypres right up to being CQMS and doing 
if that‘s the term Vimy Ridge as a part of the so-called Suicide 
Battalion.
I got brought up in the lights of these men they had my respects, if 
not yours.  There may be differences between us that start from that 
point.  But let us not go there.  Most of them are now dead, and 
unbemoaned by your like.
The current political campaign is one that says if you spend ANY money 
at all. you‘re wasting it...please, aside from "Stock‘s" more wasteful 
programs, bend my ear to why western regional "Mennonite" like thinking 
should overcome the hard, solid fact that most people are in the "East". 
 I have nothing against Mennonites and a number of things where they 
rate tops
Try that one on, please.
I lived in the "West" and love the place.    I worked with the "North" 
and likewise loved it and its people. 
I moved "East" and came to understand that this  was where most people 
lived and knew that one body was one vote.
I spent almost 20 years defending the right to self determination, as in 
free speech, as in you might be right or I might be wrong or vice versa. 
Part of that means I have right, here or elsewhere to be what you call a 
smart *** .  Comes with the territory, dummy!
If, and only if , my "leanings" get my vote to go Liberal, well hey 
dumbass, what the ****  do you want?  Totalitariansism?  You‘re right up 
on "Stock‘s" bandwagon, aren‘t you?  My way or the highway? 
If Ian wants to call me down, he has the sense to debate it with me.  
Why is it then you need to go broad band?
I‘ll leave the rest of the talk here, so people know the source of 
dicussion..
Have a nice night and remember to give your head a shake...you are not 
the national answer nor do you seem to have the experience to come up 
with the required solutions,...identifying some problems would serve 
your country equally well, even at some cost to your inflated ego... but 
I go beyond my brief...
John
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: dave
  To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
  Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 12:57 AM
  Subject: Re: Defence: Canadian Alliance Style
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Gow" 
  To: 
  Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 8:53 PM
  Subject: Re: Defence: Canadian Alliance Style
  Lighten Up Mr.Gow

      If by being on this means, means you are a military person then 
you are one of us, amongst allies. Telling me "to shake my head and take 
a breath" or telling Ian he is being cheap smells like a smart ***  to 
me. There are certain ones of us who have spent our whole lives living 
this game and in many cases are still involved in one sort or another. A 
little mutual respect amongst comrades in arms goes a long way. As for 
your misguided Liberal leanings...I expect when you get a little more 
mature your gained wisdom will turn some lights on for you. You won‘t 
even have to shake your head or take a breath
  > Geez, Ian, a pretty good line of chat....
  >
  > as long as you come from a fat-cat bad ***  province, like Alberta...
  >
  > When the Grits cut the funding through transfer payments, Alberta 
sailed
  > through it better than almost anyone else not through economic 
theory or
  > genius at any level, but because they happened to be in "boom" at 
the time
  > and date.
  >
      Do you actually believe that this time frame you are referring to 
just "happened."  Do you think perhaps the climate created by a fiscal   
          conservative administration may just have had something to do 
with it?
  >
  Your neighbour, Saskatchewan, came to the point of the Premier phoning 
the
  > PM to say they‘d gone broke.
  >
      Not so surprising, after all they did have an NDP administration
  >
  Any Maritimers out there?  Did this National Debt reduction work for 
you?
  > The Lords of the Realm Liberals have not really done anything yet 
about debt reduction they have managed to eliminate the deficit riding 
on funds they stole from the military pension fund, RCMP fund, dollars 
they kept from cutbacks in defence, healthcare and anything else that 
moved or stood still, combined with the highest taxation of the people 
of any other industrialized nation on planet earth.
  Lets not kid ourselves, either, about St Johns getting ship building
  > contracts...Quebec gets them and I know Albertans would vote for 
the Devil
  > himself, if it would ‘burn‘ Quebec.  The big losers in ship 
building, in
  > fact, come from St Catherines, Welland and Port Colbourne close to 
that
  > river that runs NORTH, not south.
  All Alberta wants is a fair method of tendering and distributing 
federal contracts. I agree the areas you mention should get some of the 
gravy as well.
  >
  > Okay, so last election, most people in Ontario saw fit to vote
  > Grits...that‘s their right, if I‘m not mistaken.  It does not make 
the Lib‘s
  > the Ontario Party, UNLESS you want to call the Alliance the ALBERTA
  > party..sauce for the goose, anyone?
  Over the last 25 or so years Ontario has seen a massive expansion in 
population mostly from non-traditional source countries. It also seen a 
massive industrial expansion from companies fleeing from oppressive 
language laws in Quebec. The area mostly affected is what everyone now 
refers to as the 905 area. These south asian and mid east nationalities 
seen Canada as a real booming place offering extensive Liberal and NDP 
social handouts unlike any area of the world. Free this, and free that, 
family relocation programmes so every third cousin also had a real good 
shot at getting in and getting part of the goodies. Of course these 
people would vote Liberal, just as long as the freebees keep coming 
their way. A big mistake we made through the Charter and our so called 
multicultural mosaic is the fact that the immigration industry here in 
Canada and abroad touts that they may keep and practice their own 
culture which we have also funded. You may have heard or read about 
two Sihks being arrested this past week over the Air India disaster. We 
have actually set up the perfect haven for these terrorists. Canada BC 
can now boast having the largest Sihk seperatist organization in the 
world who are dedicated to  armed revolution to establish the 
Independant state of Kalistan and break up India.
  I know I have digressed with this one but it ties directly into 
Liberal policies and laws that have made us the nice easy place to come 
to. Even the UN has voted I think 3 times that we are the most wonderful 
place on planet earth as we had run deficits and accured billions in 
debt by giving it away being nice guys.
  >
  > The Libs have reduced the debt by far more than the 3 Billion, or 
the
  > proposed 6 billion....any decent accountant can make numbers dance 
around to
  > any theme he as in mind, and I for one, don‘t buy this story line.  
Show me
  > a few less people living in the streets.  Show me a serviceman who 
had
  > his/her wage boosted to abandon the Food Bank or the second job.  
Show me a
  > PRes type that stayed for the real money, on his/her attachment to 
some far
  > off and distant land...and maybe had a job when they came back...but 
not in
  > Alberta, that‘s too easy lets try some of the tougher regions of 
the
  > country, where life‘s not so smooth.
  There is a sense of expectation with many younger people today that 
did not exist a generation ago. Lets keep to the military here but much 
is the same with civvy youth as well. I the sixties and early seventies 
the average private did not own a car or expect to marry before he paid 
his dues and received promotion or a decent salary that he could live 
on. Today it seems there is a sense of right to do these things 
regardless  of one‘s situation,  planning, or lack of it. When a person 
joins the army he doesn‘t or shouldn‘t do it expecting union style pay 
increases. It can be a well paid living providing one does his job well 
and gets promoted on a timely basis based on his performance. In other 
words you can expect to take out what you put in. I was involved doing a 
study some years ago on why emergency financial situations manifested 
themselves in the army. Overwhemingly it was poor judgement and in some 
cases no personal financial management at all. Don‘t get me wrong here, 
I‘m all for regularly reviewed and decent compensation for the troops 
but the troops have a personal responsibilty to live within their means.
  As for the tougher regions of the country...you go where the work is 
just like the Indians following the buffalo.
  >
  > Personally, I‘d just like to see one of your retired Alliance 
Generals,
  > bedecked in his golden parachute, commune with one of the Corporals 
that was
  > not offered advancement, pay, prestige and promotion, who got to go 
to these
  > far off and exotic places such as Somalia, Rwhanda, Namibia, 
Vietnam, Haiti,
  > Bosnia etc, when times were not good, leadership may have been in 
doubt,
  > support was little if at all, and explain career paths and the 
number of
  > gongs, and amount of compensation.
  >
      We are indeed top-heavy with officers, especially Generals 
collecting big salaries. We have all been screaming blue murder for some 
years now and I don‘t know what will change that except a government 
that will get involved with a strong minister who will take the bull by 
the horns. You may however be interested in the fact that Gen Clive Addy 
Ret‘d resigned early because he would not tolerate the corruption and 
leadership or lack of dogma. He is supporting the Alliance along with 
Col Sean Henry more affectionately referred to as the soldiers advocate. 
Both these gentlemen are men of exceptional integrity and have the best 
well being of the armed forces in their hearts.
  > Any step to a replacement of the Sea King is a positive one.  So 
far, the
  > only people I see making that are the Liberals.  How many more good 
men do
  > you need to hear about dying because it might cost each taxpayer a 
couple of
  > dollars over one year to fit them with survivable equipment?  Again, 
go into
  > that MCpl‘s home, look at the family members skimping along with far 
less
  > than so-called typical Canadians, and advise the widow and children 
that
  > Dad‘s thundered in, in unfit equipment?
  >
   In fact your Liberals, namely Jean Chretien, campaigned and won with 
the cancellation of the EH-101 as one of his primary issues. A non 
caring, apathetic and ignorant Canadian electorate bought his bull****. 
He said the machine was too expensive and elaborate. Defence experts 
have confirmed that for the criteria that was issued for a SAR machine 
the EH-101 was the only machine capable of filling the requirements. You 
may be interesed in knowing that much of this criteria was based on the 
SAR operation at Alert that cost several lives due to the limitations of 
our current machines. It is widely agreed that the EH-101 would have had 
the capabilty to have affected a rescue given it‘s all weather capabilty 
with it‘s 3 engines and appropriate power. Your friend JC also paid out 
read wasted over $5,000,000.00 in contract cancellations. Now there‘s 
good competent governance for you, Liberal governance.>
  > God Damn it Ian, lets pay the lousy nickel and spare this scenario!  
You
  > wind me right up by being this cheap.  Whatever the Parties say
  >
  > John
  >
  > ----- Original Message -----
  > From: "Ian Edwards" 
  > To: 
  > Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 6:45 PM
  > Subject: Re: Defence: Canadian Alliance Style
  >
  >
  > > Thanks to Dave for giving us the URL on the Reform oops Alliance
  > > election platform. Two things strike me, one military and the 
other
  > > which is, I believe a voice crying in the wilderness more 
important:
  > > the national debt.
  > >
  > > The Ontario Party oops Liberals will reduce the debt by $3 
billion per
  > > year and the Alliance by $6 billion. Isn‘t that nice? Drop in the
  > > bucket. The one thing we can be sure about is that there will be 
another
  > > economic recession with Dubya coming in, if he does on Tuesday 
night,
  > > sooner than you think. Keynes‘ General Theory, that all leaders 
in the
  > > developed nations pay lip service to, in summary, says that you 
overtax
  > > surplus in good times to be able to overspend in bad times. So, 
when
  > > bad times come, defence spending will be viewed again as pump 
priming
  > > pork barrel employment handouts first, second, and as needed for 
defence
  > > policy a distant third.
  > >
  > > Which leads me to the Alliance web site. They promise to increase
  > > defence spending by $2 billion per year. They don‘t say where the 
money
  > > will go specifically, but then no other party ever does at 
election
  > > time. They do seem to be trying to cover all bases ie. all voting
  > > regions and even mention new funds but no specifics of course 
for
  > > naval ship building program. Well, that should swing a few votes 
in St.
  > > John, NB at least. Does our navy need more ships? Well, I guess if 
we
  > > were to ask our brothers and sisters in the Senior Service they 
would
  > > say, "well, yes, of course, some of our new frigates are what? 
15
  > > years old or so already." So, a chicken in every defence pot and a 
boat
  > > in every driveway.
  > >
  > > In some senses I kind of wish the old international communist 
party was
  > > still around. At least they had a real Plan. just kidding, just
  > > kidding!
  > >
  > > Oh, and in closing, message to John. Your Lib‘s haven‘t gone out 
and
  > > purchased those helecopters yet. As of a couple of weeks ago they 
were
  > > still determining how to spec the choppers and one potential 
bidder was
  > > screaming that they were going to spec it so his firm EH101? 
couldn‘t
  > > bid. I think it‘s not until the spring at least before tenders 
will be
  > > issued. So, don‘t hold your breath waiting for Sea King 
replacements.
  > >
  > > Pity that soap boxes are made of cardboard and not wood anymore.
  > > Climbing down for tonight, I remain
  > > Your ob svt
  > > Ian G. Edwards, esq.
  > >
  > > dave wrote:
  > > >
  > > > Before I go rambling on about this subject, I thought it may be 
good to
  > > > inform members on the list of a comprehensive Canadian Alliance 
Defence
  > > > paper online at www.unitedalt.org  "Canada Strong and Free - A 
Defence
  > > > Strategy For The New Millennium.
  > > >
  > > > Dave Willard
  > > >
  > > > --------------------------------------------------------
  > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
  > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
  > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
  > > > message body.
  > > --------------------------------------------------------
  > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
  > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
  > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
  > > message body.
  >
  > --------------------------------------------------------
  > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
  > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
  > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
  > message body.
I remain totally surprised at how differently 
countymen can
look at the same country.
Yes, I did just under 20 years with the PRes. 
Yes, my
father and my uncles did serve the country in WWII. Yes my
Grandfather did serve in WWI, including getting gassed at Ypres right up 
to
being CQMS and doing if that‘s the term Vimy Ridge as a part of the 
so-called
Suicide Battalion.
I got brought up in the lights of these men they 
had my
respects, if not yours. There may be differences between us that 
start
from that point. But let us not go there. Most of them are 
now dead,
and unbemoaned by your like.
The current political campaign is one that says if 
you spend
ANY money at all. you‘re wasting it...please, aside from "Stock‘s" more 
wasteful
programs, bend my ear to why western regional "Mennonite" like thinking 
should
overcome the hard, solid fact that most people are in the "East". 
I have
nothing against Mennonites and a number of things where they rate
tops
Try that one on, please.
I lived in the "West" and love the 
place. I
worked with the "North" and likewise loved it and its people.
I moved "East" and came to understand that 
this was
where most people lived and knew that one body was one 
vote.
I spent almost 20 years defending the right to self
determination, as in free speech, as in you might be right or I might be 
wrong
or vice versa. 
Part of that means I have right, here or elsewhere 
to be what
you call a smart *** . Comes with the territory, 
dummy!
If, and only if , my "leanings" get my vote to go 
Liberal,
well hey dumbass, what the ****  do you want? 
Totalitariansism?
You‘re right up on "Stock‘s" bandwagon, aren‘t you? My way or the
highway? 
If Ian wants to call me down, he has the sense to 
debate it
with me. Why is it then you need to go broad band?
I‘ll leave the rest of the talk here, so people know 
the
source of dicussion..
Have a nice night and remember to give your head a
shake...you are not the national answer nor do you seem tohave the 
experience to come up with the required solutions,...identifying some 
problems
would serve your country equally well, even at some cost to your 
inflated ego...
but I go beyond my brief...
John
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From:
  dave

  To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
  Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 
12:57
  AM
  Subject: Re: Defence: Canadian 
Alliance
  Style


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: "Gow" ltjgow@home.comgt
  To: ltarmy@cipherlogic.on.cagt
  Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 8:53 
PM
  Subject: Re: Defence: Canadian Alliance
  Style

  Lighten Up Mr.Gow

   If by being on this means, 
meansyou
  are a military person then you are one of us, amongst allies. Telling 
me "to
  shake my head and take a breath" or telling Ian he is being cheap 
smells like
  a smart ***  to me. There are certain ones of us who have spent our 
whole lives
  living this game and in many cases are still involved in one sort or 
another.
  A little mutual respect amongst comrades in arms goes a long way. As 
for your
  misguided Liberal leanings...I expect when you get a little more 
mature your
  gained wisdom will turn some lights on for you. You won‘t even have 
to shake
  your head or take a breath 
  gt Geez, Ian, a pretty good line of 
chat....gt
  gt as long as you come from a fat-cat bad ***  province, like
  Alberta...gt gt When the Grits cut the funding through 
transfer
  payments, Alberta sailedgt through it better than almost anyone 
else
  not through economic theory orgt genius at any level, but 
because they
  happened to be in "boom" at the timegt and date.gt 
   Do you actually believe 
that this
  time frame you are referring to just "happened." Do you think 
perhaps
  the climate created by a fiscal  
   conservative administration may just have had 
something to
  do with it?gt 
  Your neighbour, Saskatchewan, came to the point of 
the
  Premier phoning thegt PM to say they‘d gone broke.gt 
   Not so surprising, after 
all they did
  have an NDP administrationgt 
  Any Maritimers out there? Did this National 
Debt
  reduction work for you?
  gt The Lords of the Realm Liberals 
have not
  really done anything yet about debt reduction they have managed to 
eliminate
  the deficit riding on funds they stole from the military pension fund, 
RCMP
  fund, dollars they kept from cutbacks in defence, healthcare and 
anything else
  that moved or stood still, combined with the highest taxation of the 
people of
  any other industrialized nation on planet earth.

  Lets not kid ourselves, 
either, about St
  Johns getting ship buildinggt contracts...Quebec gets them and 
I know
  Albertans would vote for the Devilgt himself, if it would ‘burn‘ 
  Quebec. The big losers in ship building, ingt fact, come 
from St
  Catherines, Welland and Port Colbourne close to thatgt river 
that runs
  NORTH, not south.

  All Alberta wants is a fair method of 
tendering and
  distributing federal contracts. I agree the areas you mention should 
get some
  of the gravy as well.
  gt gt Okay, so last election, most people in Ontario 
saw fit
  to votegt Grits...that‘s their right, if I‘m not mistaken. 
It does
  not make the Lib‘sgt the Ontario Party, UNLESS you want to call 
the
  Alliance the ALBERTAgt party..sauce for the goose, anyone?

  Over the last 25 or so years Ontario has seen a massive 
expansion in
  population mostly from non-traditional source countries. It also seen 
a
  massive industrial expansion from companies fleeing from oppressive 
language
  laws in Quebec. The area mostly affected is what everyone now refers 
to as the
  905 area. These south asian and mid east nationalities seen Canada as 
a real
  booming place offering extensive Liberal and NDP social handouts 
unlike any
  area of the world. Free this, and free that, family relocation 
programmes so
  every third cousin also had a real good shot at getting in and getting 
part of
  the goodies. Of course these people would vote Liberal, just as long 
as the
  freebees keep coming their way. A big mistake we made through the 
Charter and
  our so called multicultural mosaic is the fact that the immigration 
industry
  here in Canada and abroadtouts that they may keep and practice 
their own
  culture which we have also funded. You may have heard or read about 
two
  Sihks being arrested this past week over the Air India disaster. We 
have
  actually set up the perfect haven for these terrorists. Canada 
BCcan
  now boast having the largest Sihk seperatist organization in the world 
who are
  dedicated to armed revolution to establish the Independant state 
of
  Kalistan and break up India.
  I know I have digressed with this one but it ties directly 
into
  Liberal policies and laws that have made us the nice easy place to 
come to.
  Even the UN has voted I think 3 times that we are the most wonderful 
place on
  planet earth as we had run deficits and accured billions in debt by 
giving
  itaway being nice guys.gt gt The Libs 
have
  reduced the debt by far more than the 3 Billion, or thegt 
proposed 6
  billion....any decent accountant can make numbers dance around 
togt any
  theme he as in mind, and I for one, don‘t buy this story line. 
Show
  megt a few less people living in the streets. Show me a 
serviceman
  who hadgt his/her wage boosted to abandon the Food Bank or the 
second
  job. Show me agt PRes type that stayed for the real money, 
on
  his/her attachment to some fargt off and distant land...and 
maybe had a
  job when they came back...but not ingt Alberta, that‘s too easy 
lets
  try some of the tougher regions of thegt country, where life‘s 
not so
  smooth.

  There is a sense of expectation with many younger people 
today that
  did not exist a generation ago. Lets keep to the military here but 
much is the
  same with civvy youth as well. I the sixties and early seventies the 
average
  private did not own a car or expect to marry before he paid his dues 
and
  received promotion or a decent salary that he could live on. Today it 
seems
  there is a sense of right to do these things regardless of one‘s 
  situation, planning, or lack of it. When a person joins the army 
he
  doesn‘t or shouldn‘t do it expecting union style pay increases. It can 
be a
  well paid living providing one does his job well and gets promoted on 
a timely
  basis based on his performance. In other words you can expect to take 
out what
  you put in. I was involved doing a study some years ago on why 
emergency
  financial situations manifested themselves in the army. Overwhemingly 
it was
  poor judgement and in some cases no personal financial management at 
all.
  Don‘t get me wrong here, I‘m all for regularly reviewed and decent
  compensation for the troops but the troops have a personal 
responsibilty to
  live within their means.
  As for the tougher regions of the country...you go where the 
work is
  just like the Indians following thebuffalo.gt 
gt
  Personally, I‘d just like to see one of your retired Alliance
  Generals,gt bedecked in his golden parachute, commune with one 
of the
  Corporals that wasgt not offered advancement, pay, prestige and
  promotion, who got to go to thesegt far off and exotic places 
such as
  Somalia, Rwhanda, Namibia, Vietnam, Haiti,gt Bosnia etc, when 
times were
  not good, leadership may have been in doubt,gt support was 
little if at
  all, and explain career paths and the number ofgt gongs, and 
amount of
  compensation.gt 
   We are indeed top-heavy with officers, 
especially
  Generals collecting big salaries. We have all been screaming blue 
murder for
  some years now and I don‘t know what will change that except a 
government that
  will get involved with a strong minister who will take the bull by the 
horns.
  You may however be interested in the fact that Gen Clive Addy Ret‘d 
resigned
  early because he would not tolerate the corruption and leadership or 
lack of
  dogma. He is supporting the Alliance along with Col Sean Henry more
  affectionately referred to as the soldiers advocate. Both these 
gentlemen are
  men of exceptional integrity and have the best well being of the armed 
forces
  in their hearts.
  gt Any step to a replacement of the Sea King is a positive
  one. So far, thegt only people I see making that are the
  Liberals. How many more good men dogt you need to hear 
about dying
  because it might cost each taxpayer a couple ofgt dollars over 
one year
  to fit them with survivable equipment? Again, go intogt 
that
  MCpl‘s home, look at the family members skimping along with far 
lessgt
  than so-called typical Canadians, and advise the widow and children
  thatgt Dad‘s thundered in, in unfit equipment?gt
  In fact your Liberals, namely Jean Chretien, campaigned 
and won
  with the cancellation of the EH-101 as one of his primary issues. A 
non
  caring, apathetic and ignorant Canadian electorate bought his 
bull****. He
  said the machine was too expensive and elaborate. Defence experts have 
  confirmed that for the criteria that was issued for a SAR machine the 
EH-101
  was the only machine capable of filling the requirements. You may be 
interesed
  in knowing that much of this criteria was based on the SAR operation 
at Alert
  that cost several lives due to the limitations of our current 
machines. It is
  widely agreed that the EH-101 would have had the capabilty to have 
affected a
  rescue given it‘s all weather capabilty with it‘s 3 engines and 
appropriate
  power. Your friend JC also paid out read wasted over $5,000,000.00 
in
  contract cancellations. Now there‘s good competent governance for you, 
Liberal
  governance.gt
  gt God Damn it Ian, lets pay the lousy nickel and 
spare
  this scenario! Yougt wind me right up by being this 
cheap.
  Whatever the Parties saygt gt Johngt gt ----- 
Original
  Message -----gt From: "Ian Edwards" ltiedwards@home.comgtgt To: ltarmy@cipherlogic.on.cagtgt 
Sent:
  Sunday, November 05, 2000 6:45 PMgt Subject: Re: Defence: 
Canadian
  Alliance Stylegt gt gt gt Thanks to Dave for 
giving us the
  URL on the Reform oops Alliancegt gt election platform. Two 
things
  strike me, one military and the othergt gt which is, I believe 
a
  voice crying in the wilderness more important:gt gt the 
national
  debt.gt gtgt gt The Ontario Party oops Liberals will 
reduce
  the debt by $3 billion pergt gt year and the Alliance by $6 
billion.
  Isn‘t that nice? Drop in thegt gt bucket. The one thing we can 
be sure
  about is that there will be anothergt gt economic recession 
with
  Dubya coming in, if he does on Tuesday night,gt gt sooner than 
you
  think. Keynes‘ General Theory, that all leaders in thegt gt 
developed
  nations pay lip service to, in summary, says that you overtaxgt 
gt
  surplus in good times to be able to overspend in bad times. So, 
whengt
  gt bad times come, defence spending will be viewed again as pump
  priminggt gt pork barrel employment handouts first, second, 
and as
  needed for defencegt gt policy a distant third.gt 
gtgt
  gt Which leads me to the Alliance web site. They promise to 
increasegt
  gt defence spending by $2 billion per year. They don‘t say where the 
  moneygt gt will go specifically, but then no other party ever 
does at
  electiongt gt time. They do seem to be trying to cover all 
bases ie.
  all votinggt gt regions and even mention new funds but no 
specifics
  of course forgt gt naval ship building program. Well, that 
should
  swing a few votes in St.gt gt John, NB at least. Does our navy 
need
  more ships? Well, I guess if wegt gt were to ask our brothers 
and
  sisters in the Senior Service they wouldgt gt say, "well, yes, 
of
  course, some of our new frigates are what? 15gt gt years old 
or so
  already." So, a chicken in every defence pot and a boatgt gt 
in every
  driveway.gt gtgt gt In some senses I kind of wish the 
old
  international communist party wasgt gt still around. At least 
they had
  a real Plan. just kidding, justgt gt kidding!gt 
gtgt
  gt Oh, and in closing, message to John. Your Lib‘s haven‘t gone out
  andgt gt purchased those helecopters yet. As of a couple of 
weeks ago
  they weregt gt still determining how to spec the choppers and 
one
  potential bidder wasgt gt screaming that they were going to 
spec it so
  his firm EH101? couldn‘tgt gt bid. I think it‘s not until 
the spring
  at least before tenders will begt gt issued. So, don‘t hold 
your
  breath waiting for Sea King replacements.gt gtgt gt 
Pity that
  soap boxes are made of cardboard and not wood anymore.gt gt 
Climbing
  down for tonight, I remaingt gt Your ob svtgt gt Ian 
G.
  Edwards, esq.gt gtgt gt dave wrote:gt gt 
gtgt
  gt gt Before I go rambling on about this subject, I thought it may 
be good
  togt gt gt inform members on the list of a comprehensive 
Canadian
  Alliance Defencegt gt gt paper online at www.unitedalt.org "Canada Strong and Free - A Defencegt gt gt 
Strategy
  For The New Millennium.gt gt gtgt gt gt Dave
  Willardgt gt gtgt gt gt
  --------------------------------------------------------gt gt 
gt
  NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a messagegt 
gt
  gt to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from 
the account
  you wishgt gt gt to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" 
in
  thegt gt gt message body.gt gt
  --------------------------------------------------------gt gt
  NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a messagegt 
gt to
  majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from 
the account
  you wishgt gt to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in
  thegt gt message body.gt gt
  --------------------------------------------------------gt 
NOTE:
  To remove yourself from this list, send a messagegt to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from 
the account
  you wishgt to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in 
thegt
  message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"F. A." <zzzzzzz@telusplanet.net>* on *Mon, 06 Nov 2000 01:04:25 -0700*
--------------80DBD4FEACCBC267DCFE6A77
John,
        Fat-cat province?  We would vote for the devil himself if it would
‘burn‘ Quebec? Uh... isn‘t that just exaggerated rhetoric? This sounds just like
the stuff Chretien is spewing out. C‘mon, give it a rest. If you actually were
in Alberta just 3 years ago, you might have noticed we had $11/barrel oil. Where
was the rest of the country then? And because Alberta has it‘s financial house
in order now, eliminating the deficit and reducing the debt, this is our fault?!
You know, it sounds like like, sour grapes. Geez John, Lighten up.
Francois
Gow wrote:
> Geez, Ian, a pretty good line of chat....
>
> as long as you come from a fat-cat bad ***  province, like Alberta...
>
> When the Grits cut the funding through transfer payments, Alberta sailed
> through it better than almost anyone else not through economic theory or
> genius at any level, but because they happened to be in "boom" at the time
> and date.
>
> Your neighbour, Saskatchewan, came to the point of the Premier phoning the
> PM to say they‘d gone broke.
>
> Any Maritimers out there?  Did this National Debt reduction work for you?
>
> Lets not kid ourselves, either, about St Johns getting ship building
> contracts...Quebec gets them and I know Albertans would vote for the Devil
> himself, if it would ‘burn‘ Quebec.  The big losers in ship building, in
> fact, come from St Catherines, Welland and Port Colbourne close to that
> river that runs NORTH, not south.
>
> Okay, so last election, most people in Ontario saw fit to vote
> Grits...that‘s their right, if I‘m not mistaken.  It does not make the Lib‘s
> the Ontario Party, UNLESS you want to call the Alliance the ALBERTA
> party..sauce for the goose, anyone?
>
> The Libs have reduced the debt by far more than the 3 Billion, or the
> proposed 6 billion....any decent accountant can make numbers dance around to
> any theme he as in mind, and I for one, don‘t buy this story line.  Show me
> a few less people living in the streets.  Show me a serviceman who had
> his/her wage boosted to abandon the Food Bank or the second job.  Show me a
> PRes type that stayed for the real money, on his/her attachment to some far
> off and distant land...and maybe had a job when they came back...but not in
> Alberta, that‘s too easy lets try some of the tougher regions of the
> country, where life‘s not so smooth.
>
> Personally, I‘d just like to see one of your retired Alliance Generals,
> bedecked in his golden parachute, commune with one of the Corporals that was
> not offered advancement, pay, prestige and promotion, who got to go to these
> far off and exotic places such as Somalia, Rwhanda, Namibia, Vietnam, Haiti,
> Bosnia etc, when times were not good, leadership may have been in doubt,
> support was little if at all, and explain career paths and the number of
> gongs, and amount of compensation.
>
> Any step to a replacement of the Sea King is a positive one.  So far, the
> only people I see making that are the Liberals.  How many more good men do
> you need to hear about dying because it might cost each taxpayer a couple of
> dollars over one year to fit them with survivable equipment?  Again, go into
> that MCpl‘s home, look at the family members skimping along with far less
> than so-called typical Canadians, and advise the widow and children that
> Dad‘s thundered in, in unfit equipment?
>
> God Damn it Ian, lets pay the lousy nickel and spare this scenario!  You
> wind me right up by being this cheap.  Whatever the Parties say
>
> John
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ian Edwards" 
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 6:45 PM
> Subject: Re: Defence: Canadian Alliance Style
>
> > Thanks to Dave for giving us the URL on the Reform oops Alliance
> > election platform. Two things strike me, one military and the other
> > which is, I believe a voice crying in the wilderness more important:
> > the national debt.
> >
> > The Ontario Party oops Liberals will reduce the debt by $3 billion per
> > year and the Alliance by $6 billion. Isn‘t that nice? Drop in the
> > bucket. The one thing we can be sure about is that there will be another
> > economic recession with Dubya coming in, if he does on Tuesday night,
> > sooner than you think. Keynes‘ General Theory, that all leaders in the
> > developed nations pay lip service to, in summary, says that you overtax
> > surplus in good times to be able to overspend in bad times. So, when
> > bad times come, defence spending will be viewed again as pump priming
> > pork barrel employment handouts first, second, and as needed for defence
> > policy a distant third.
> >
> > Which leads me to the Alliance web site. They promise to increase
> > defence spending by $2 billion per year. They don‘t say where the money
> > will go specifically, but then no other party ever does at election
> > time. They do seem to be trying to cover all bases ie. all voting
> > regions and even mention new funds but no specifics of course for
> > naval ship building program. Well, that should swing a few votes in St.
> > John, NB at least. Does our navy need more ships? Well, I guess if we
> > were to ask our brothers and sisters in the Senior Service they would
> > say, "well, yes, of course, some of our new frigates are what? 15
> > years old or so already." So, a chicken in every defence pot and a boat
> > in every driveway.
> >
> > In some senses I kind of wish the old international communist party was
> > still around. At least they had a real Plan. just kidding, just
> > kidding!
> >
> > Oh, and in closing, message to John. Your Lib‘s haven‘t gone out and
> > purchased those helecopters yet. As of a couple of weeks ago they were
> > still determining how to spec the choppers and one potential bidder was
> > screaming that they were going to spec it so his firm EH101? couldn‘t
> > bid. I think it‘s not until the spring at least before tenders will be
> > issued. So, don‘t hold your breath waiting for Sea King replacements.
> >
> > Pity that soap boxes are made of cardboard and not wood anymore.
> > Climbing down for tonight, I remain
> > Your ob svt
> > Ian G. Edwards, esq.
> >
> > dave wrote:
> > >
> > > Before I go rambling on about this subject, I thought it may be good to
> > > inform members on the list of a comprehensive Canadian Alliance Defence
> > > paper online at www.unitedalt.org  "Canada Strong and Free - A Defence
> > > Strategy For The New Millennium.
> > >
> > > Dave Willard
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > message body.
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
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----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Capt.RW.Nairne,TFBH SO Comd,4212,0901" <mail816p@dnd.ca>* on *Mon, 6 Nov 2000 10:20:58 -0500 (EST)*
Have to agree with the rest of the Albertans Francois et al.  The financial flexibility that Alberta enjoys has more to do with Alberta getting it‘s fiscal house in order by making some very unpopular decisions in the early - mid 90s then the high price of the ubiquetous black gold under our feet.  The remainder of the provinces incl Ontario have not addressed what they really want their provincial government to do.
"Democracy will fail when citizens realize they can vote themselves money"     
On Monday, November 06, 2000 at 01:04:25 AM, army@cipherlogic.on.ca wrote:
> John,
> 
> 
>         Fat-cat province?  We would vote for the devil himself if it would
> ‘burn‘ Quebec? Uh... isn‘t that just exaggerated rhetoric? This sounds just like
> the stuff Chretien is spewing out. C‘mon, give it a rest. If you actually were
> in Alberta just 3 years ago, you might have noticed we had $11/barrel oil. Where
> was the rest of the country then? And because Alberta has it‘s financial house
> in order now, eliminating the deficit and reducing the debt, this is our fault?!
> You know, it sounds like like, sour grapes. Geez John, Lighten up.
> 
> Francois
> 
> 
> Gow wrote:
> 
> > Geez, Ian, a pretty good line of chat....
> >
> > as long as you come from a fat-cat bad ***  province, like Alberta...
> >
> > When the Grits cut the funding through transfer payments, Alberta sailed
> > through it better than almost anyone else not through economic theory or
> > genius at any level, but because they happened to be in "boom" at the time
> > and date.
> >
> > Your neighbour, Saskatchewan, came to the point of the Premier phoning the
> > PM to say they‘d gone broke.
> >
> > Any Maritimers out there?  Did this National Debt reduction work for you?
> >
> > Lets not kid ourselves, either, about St Johns getting ship building
> > contracts...Quebec gets them and I know Albertans would vote for the Devil
> > himself, if it would ‘burn‘ Quebec.  The big losers in ship building, in
> > fact, come from St Catherines, Welland and Port Colbourne close to that
> > river that runs NORTH, not south.
> >
> > Okay, so last election, most people in Ontario saw fit to vote
> > Grits...that‘s their right, if I‘m not mistaken.  It does not make the Lib‘s
> > the Ontario Party, UNLESS you want to call the Alliance the ALBERTA
> > party..sauce for the goose, anyone?
> >
> > The Libs have reduced the debt by far more than the 3 Billion, or the
> > proposed 6 billion....any decent accountant can make numbers dance around to
> > any theme he as in mind, and I for one, don‘t buy this story line.  Show me
> > a few less people living in the streets.  Show me a serviceman who had
> > his/her wage boosted to abandon the Food Bank or the second job.  Show me a
> > PRes type that stayed for the real money, on his/her attachment to some far
> > off and distant land...and maybe had a job when they came back...but not in
> > Alberta, that‘s too easy lets try some of the tougher regions of the
> > country, where life‘s not so smooth.
> >
> > Personally, I‘d just like to see one of your retired Alliance Generals,
> > bedecked in his golden parachute, commune with one of the Corporals that was
> > not offered advancement, pay, prestige and promotion, who got to go to these
> > far off and exotic places such as Somalia, Rwhanda, Namibia, Vietnam, Haiti,
> > Bosnia etc, when times were not good, leadership may have been in doubt,
> > support was little if at all, and explain career paths and the number of
> > gongs, and amount of compensation.
> >
> > Any step to a replacement of the Sea King is a positive one.  So far, the
> > only people I see making that are the Liberals.  How many more good men do
> > you need to hear about dying because it might cost each taxpayer a couple of
> > dollars over one year to fit them with survivable equipment?  Again, go into
> > that MCpl‘s home, look at the family members skimping along with far less
> > than so-called typical Canadians, and advise the widow and children that
> > Dad‘s thundered in, in unfit equipment?
> >
> > God Damn it Ian, lets pay the lousy nickel and spare this scenario!  You
> > wind me right up by being this cheap.  Whatever the Parties say
> >
> > John
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ian Edwards" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 6:45 PM
> > Subject: Re: Defence: Canadian Alliance Style
> >
> > > Thanks to Dave for giving us the URL on the Reform oops Alliance
> > > election platform. Two things strike me, one military and the other
> > > which is, I believe a voice crying in the wilderness more important:
> > > the national debt.
> > >
> > > The Ontario Party oops Liberals will reduce the debt by $3 billion per
> > > year and the Alliance by $6 billion. Isn‘t that nice? Drop in the
> > > bucket. The one thing we can be sure about is that there will be another
> > > economic recession with Dubya coming in, if he does on Tuesday night,
> > > sooner than you think. Keynes‘ General Theory, that all leaders in the
> > > developed nations pay lip service to, in summary, says that you overtax
> > > surplus in good times to be able to overspend in bad times. So, when
> > > bad times come, defence spending will be viewed again as pump priming
> > > pork barrel employment handouts first, second, and as needed for defence
> > > policy a distant third.
> > >
> > > Which leads me to the Alliance web site. They promise to increase
> > > defence spending by $2 billion per year. They don‘t say where the money
> > > will go specifically, but then no other party ever does at election
> > > time. They do seem to be trying to cover all bases ie. all voting
> > > regions and even mention new funds but no specifics of course for
> > > naval ship building program. Well, that should swing a few votes in St.
> > > John, NB at least. Does our navy need more ships? Well, I guess if we
> > > were to ask our brothers and sisters in the Senior Service they would
> > > say, "well, yes, of course, some of our new frigates are what? 15
> > > years old or so already." So, a chicken in every defence pot and a boat
> > > in every driveway.
> > >
> > > In some senses I kind of wish the old international communist party was
> > > still around. At least they had a real Plan. just kidding, just
> > > kidding!
> > >
> > > Oh, and in closing, message to John. Your Lib‘s haven‘t gone out and
> > > purchased those helecopters yet. As of a couple of weeks ago they were
> > > still determining how to spec the choppers and one potential bidder was
> > > screaming that they were going to spec it so his firm EH101? couldn‘t
> > > bid. I think it‘s not until the spring at least before tenders will be
> > > issued. So, don‘t hold your breath waiting for Sea King replacements.
> > >
> > > Pity that soap boxes are made of cardboard and not wood anymore.
> > > Climbing down for tonight, I remain
> > > Your ob svt
> > > Ian G. Edwards, esq.
> > >
> > > dave wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Before I go rambling on about this subject, I thought it may be good to
> > > > inform members on the list of a comprehensive Canadian Alliance Defence
> > > > paper online at www.unitedalt.org  "Canada Strong and Free - A Defence
> > > > Strategy For The New Millennium.
> > > >
> > > > Dave Willard
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > message body.
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > message body.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> 
> 
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----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Thu, 09 Nov 2000 02:42:59 GMT*
John -
Yes! An iron-clad rule of public policy is - or ought to be - never look to 
oil-rich jurisdictions for policy solutions for the rest of the world.
Norway is able to afford a lavish welfare state of a kind that would 
bankrupt most non-oil producing countries in no time flat Alberta and - 
are you listening Dubya? - Texas are able to engage in a kind of 
laissez-faire approach to the economy and government that is similarly in 
applicable in other, more "normal" places.
The fact is, fiscal conservative though I am, the lessons that can be drawn 
from Alberta re: taxes, spending, etc., have to be applied with some caution 
to those parts of the country that rely on human capital knowledge workers, 
that is and other, less perenially in demand commodities than petroleum, 
for the lion‘s share of their income as these areas tend, on average, to 
fare worse during economic downturns than our fossil-fuel rich cousins...
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Gow" 
Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
To: 
Subject: Re: Defence: Canadian Alliance Style
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 21:20:25 -0500
Reference my comment that Alberta "sailed through it"
Maybe I should point out that Ralphie decided that better than to take any
heat himself, lets screw every nurse in the province...and if that means
Albertans get screwed right along with them, at least I‘ll show a
surplus/deficit reduction, so what the hey?  Witness a massive nurses strike
in Alberta, that Ralph blithely sailed though, and be damned to any patient
that died and/or suffered since small "c" conservatives, like Ralphie or
Ly‘in Brian have the good sense to use their millions to desert to the USA
"Do you think I‘d let my Mother be at risk?"  Remember that video bite?
She went to a Florida hospital...
So PULLLEEASE...don‘t say that this is the western solution to a country‘s
problems just be nice, give the blame to Ralph, who is a fat cat, and could
lterally not care less and "Stock", his buddy who engineered this for him?
Well, lets let an electorate make their own choices, by the circumstances
they find themselves in... and just get on with reality.
And then cut the bul**** and define the northern, eastern, non-fat cat
solutions. even if you have to pony up a bit of cash,,,
Perception is different, depending where you see an issue from...
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gow" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 8:53 PM
Subject: Re: Defence: Canadian Alliance Style
 > Geez, Ian, a pretty good line of chat....
 >
 > as long as you come from a fat-cat bad ***  province, like Alberta...
 >
 > When the Grits cut the funding through transfer payments, Alberta sailed
 > through it better than almost anyone else not through economic theory or
 > genius at any level, but because they happened to be in "boom" at the 
time
 > and date.
 >
 > Your neighbour, Saskatchewan, came to the point of the Premier phoning 
the
 > PM to say they‘d gone broke.
 >
 > Any Maritimers out there?  Did this National Debt reduction work for you?
 >
 > Lets not kid ourselves, either, about St Johns getting ship building
 > contracts...Quebec gets them and I know Albertans would vote for the
Devil
 > himself, if it would ‘burn‘ Quebec.  The big losers in ship building, in
 > fact, come from St Catherines, Welland and Port Colbourne close to that
 > river that runs NORTH, not south.
 >
 > Okay, so last election, most people in Ontario saw fit to vote
 > Grits...that‘s their right, if I‘m not mistaken.  It does not make the
Lib‘s
 > the Ontario Party, UNLESS you want to call the Alliance the ALBERTA
 > party..sauce for the goose, anyone?
 >
 > The Libs have reduced the debt by far more than the 3 Billion, or the
 > proposed 6 billion....any decent accountant can make numbers dance around
to
 > any theme he as in mind, and I for one, don‘t buy this story line.  Show
me
 > a few less people living in the streets.  Show me a serviceman who had
 > his/her wage boosted to abandon the Food Bank or the second job.  Show me
a
 > PRes type that stayed for the real money, on his/her attachment to some
far
 > off and distant land...and maybe had a job when they came back...but not
in
 > Alberta, that‘s too easy lets try some of the tougher regions of the
 > country, where life‘s not so smooth.
 >
 > Personally, I‘d just like to see one of your retired Alliance Generals,
 > bedecked in his golden parachute, commune with one of the Corporals that
was
 > not offered advancement, pay, prestige and promotion, who got to go to
these
 > far off and exotic places such as Somalia, Rwhanda, Namibia, Vietnam,
Haiti,
 > Bosnia etc, when times were not good, leadership may have been in doubt,
 > support was little if at all, and explain career paths and the number of
 > gongs, and amount of compensation.
 >
 > Any step to a replacement of the Sea King is a positive one.  So far, the
 > only people I see making that are the Liberals.  How many more good men 
do
 > you need to hear about dying because it might cost each taxpayer a couple
of
 > dollars over one year to fit them with survivable equipment?  Again, go
into
 > that MCpl‘s home, look at the family members skimping along with far less
 > than so-called typical Canadians, and advise the widow and children that
 > Dad‘s thundered in, in unfit equipment?
 >
 > God Damn it Ian, lets pay the lousy nickel and spare this scenario!  You
 > wind me right up by being this cheap.  Whatever the Parties say
 >
 > John
 >
 > ----- Original Message -----
 > From: "Ian Edwards" 
 > To: 
 > Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 6:45 PM
 > Subject: Re: Defence: Canadian Alliance Style
 >
 >
 > > Thanks to Dave for giving us the URL on the Reform oops Alliance
 > > election platform. Two things strike me, one military and the other
 > > which is, I believe a voice crying in the wilderness more important:
 > > the national debt.
 > >
 > > The Ontario Party oops Liberals will reduce the debt by $3 billion 
per
 > > year and the Alliance by $6 billion. Isn‘t that nice? Drop in the
 > > bucket. The one thing we can be sure about is that there will be 
another
 > > economic recession with Dubya coming in, if he does on Tuesday night,
 > > sooner than you think. Keynes‘ General Theory, that all leaders in the
 > > developed nations pay lip service to, in summary, says that you overtax
 > > surplus in good times to be able to overspend in bad times. So, when
 > > bad times come, defence spending will be viewed again as pump priming
 > > pork barrel employment handouts first, second, and as needed for 
defence
 > > policy a distant third.
 > >
 > > Which leads me to the Alliance web site. They promise to increase
 > > defence spending by $2 billion per year. They don‘t say where the money
 > > will go specifically, but then no other party ever does at election
 > > time. They do seem to be trying to cover all bases ie. all voting
 > > regions and even mention new funds but no specifics of course for
 > > naval ship building program. Well, that should swing a few votes in St.
 > > John, NB at least. Does our navy need more ships? Well, I guess if we
 > > were to ask our brothers and sisters in the Senior Service they would
 > > say, "well, yes, of course, some of our new frigates are what? 15
 > > years old or so already." So, a chicken in every defence pot and a boat
 > > in every driveway.
 > >
 > > In some senses I kind of wish the old international communist party was
 > > still around. At least they had a real Plan. just kidding, just
 > > kidding!
 > >
 > > Oh, and in closing, message to John. Your Lib‘s haven‘t gone out and
 > > purchased those helecopters yet. As of a couple of weeks ago they were
 > > still determining how to spec the choppers and one potential bidder was
 > > screaming that they were going to spec it so his firm EH101? couldn‘t
 > > bid. I think it‘s not until the spring at least before tenders will be
 > > issued. So, don‘t hold your breath waiting for Sea King replacements.
 > >
 > > Pity that soap boxes are made of cardboard and not wood anymore.
 > > Climbing down for tonight, I remain
 > > Your ob svt
 > > Ian G. Edwards, esq.
 > >
 > > dave wrote:
 > > >
 > > > Before I go rambling on about this subject, I thought it may be good
to
 > > > inform members on the list of a comprehensive Canadian Alliance
Defence
 > > > paper online at www.unitedalt.org  "Canada Strong and Free - A 
Defence
 > > > Strategy For The New Millennium.
 > > >
 > > > Dave Willard
 > > >
 > > > --------------------------------------------------------
 > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
 > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
 > > > message body.
 > > --------------------------------------------------------
 > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
 > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
 > > message body.
 >
 > --------------------------------------------------------
 > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
 > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
 > message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
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_________________________________________________________________________
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----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com>* on *Wed, 08 Nov 2000 19:42:07 -0700*
At least in MY economic rants on this bb I usually try to work in some
faint reference to the CF, even if it is gratuitous. And yes, I was once
a policeman, Regimental Police. Group 1 only.
"Joan O. Arc" wrote:
> 
> John -
> 
> Yes! An iron-clad rule of public policy is - or ought to be - never look to
> oil-rich jurisdictions for policy solutions for the rest of the world.
> 
> Norway is able to afford a lavish welfare state of a kind that would
> bankrupt most non-oil producing countries in no time flat Alberta and -
> are you listening Dubya? - Texas are able to engage in a kind of
> laissez-faire approach to the economy and government that is similarly in
> applicable in other, more "normal" places.
> 
> The fact is, fiscal conservative though I am, the lessons that can be drawn
> from Alberta re: taxes, spending, etc., have to be applied with some caution
> to those parts of the country that rely on human capital knowledge workers,
> that is and other, less perenially in demand commodities than petroleum,
> for the lion‘s share of their income as these areas tend, on average, to
> fare worse during economic downturns than our fossil-fuel rich cousins...
>
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Sun, 12 Nov 2000 08:23:35 GMT*
Beg pardon? Ontario hasn‘ "gotten it‘s financial house in order"? Since 
when?
The deficit is on its way down taxes likewise, to the considerable 
satisfaction and relief of many.
But because Ont. is a jurisdiction where wealth is primarily generated in 
the very human-capital-intensive service industries, instead of by drilling 
holes in the ground and pumping out whatever is down there, prosperity here 
is both harder won and somewhat more cyclical and precarious than in the oil 
patch. Though I know those downturns in oil prices can really pack a 
wallop...
So, the wishes of Ontario voters notwithstanding, "putting the province‘s 
fiscal house in order" is probably a tad trickier than in Alberta, and the 
comment I lobbed in a while ago about using a pinch of salt when taking 
public policy lessons from oil rich jurisdictions whether conservative, as 
in Alta., or socialist, as in Norway is still, I think, valid...
- Joan
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Capt.RW.Nairne,TFBH SO Comd,4212,0901" 
Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
Subject: Re: Defence: Canadian Alliance Style
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 10:20:58 -0500 EST
Have to agree with the rest of the Albertans Francois et al.  The 
financial flexibility that Alberta enjoys has more to do with Alberta 
getting it‘s fiscal house in order by making some very unpopular decisions 
in the early - mid 90s then the high price of the ubiquetous black gold 
under our feet.  The remainder of the provinces incl Ontario have not 
addressed what they really want their provincial government to do.
"Democracy will fail when citizens realize they can vote themselves money"
On Monday, November 06, 2000 at 01:04:25 AM, army@cipherlogic.on.ca wrote:
 > John,
 >
 >
 >         Fat-cat province?  We would vote for the devil himself if it 
would
 > ‘burn‘ Quebec? Uh... isn‘t that just exaggerated rhetoric? This sounds 
just like
 > the stuff Chretien is spewing out. C‘mon, give it a rest. If you actually 
were
 > in Alberta just 3 years ago, you might have noticed we had $11/barrel 
oil. Where
 > was the rest of the country then? And because Alberta has it‘s financial 
house
 > in order now, eliminating the deficit and reducing the debt, this is our 
fault?!
 > You know, it sounds like like, sour grapes. Geez John, Lighten up.
 >
 > Francois
 >
 >
 > Gow wrote:
 >
 > > Geez, Ian, a pretty good line of chat....
 > >
 > > as long as you come from a fat-cat bad ***  province, like Alberta...
 > >
 > > When the Grits cut the funding through transfer payments, Alberta 
sailed
 > > through it better than almost anyone else not through economic theory 
or
 > > genius at any level, but because they happened to be in "boom" at the 
time
 > > and date.
 > >
 > > Your neighbour, Saskatchewan, came to the point of the Premier phoning 
the
 > > PM to say they‘d gone broke.
 > >
 > > Any Maritimers out there?  Did this National Debt reduction work for 
you?
 > >
 > > Lets not kid ourselves, either, about St Johns getting ship building
 > > contracts...Quebec gets them and I know Albertans would vote for the 
Devil
 > > himself, if it would ‘burn‘ Quebec.  The big losers in ship building, 
in
 > > fact, come from St Catherines, Welland and Port Colbourne close to 
that
 > > river that runs NORTH, not south.
 > >
 > > Okay, so last election, most people in Ontario saw fit to vote
 > > Grits...that‘s their right, if I‘m not mistaken.  It does not make the 
Lib‘s
 > > the Ontario Party, UNLESS you want to call the Alliance the ALBERTA
 > > party..sauce for the goose, anyone?
 > >
 > > The Libs have reduced the debt by far more than the 3 Billion, or the
 > > proposed 6 billion....any decent accountant can make numbers dance 
around to
 > > any theme he as in mind, and I for one, don‘t buy this story line.  
Show me
 > > a few less people living in the streets.  Show me a serviceman who had
 > > his/her wage boosted to abandon the Food Bank or the second job.  Show 
me a
 > > PRes type that stayed for the real money, on his/her attachment to some 
far
 > > off and distant land...and maybe had a job when they came back...but 
not in
 > > Alberta, that‘s too easy lets try some of the tougher regions of the
 > > country, where life‘s not so smooth.
 > >
 > > Personally, I‘d just like to see one of your retired Alliance Generals,
 > > bedecked in his golden parachute, commune with one of the Corporals 
that was
 > > not offered advancement, pay, prestige and promotion, who got to go to 
these
 > > far off and exotic places such as Somalia, Rwhanda, Namibia, Vietnam, 
Haiti,
 > > Bosnia etc, when times were not good, leadership may have been in 
doubt,
 > > support was little if at all, and explain career paths and the number 
of
 > > gongs, and amount of compensation.
 > >
 > > Any step to a replacement of the Sea King is a positive one.  So far, 
the
 > > only people I see making that are the Liberals.  How many more good men 
do
 > > you need to hear about dying because it might cost each taxpayer a 
couple of
 > > dollars over one year to fit them with survivable equipment?  Again, go 
into
 > > that MCpl‘s home, look at the family members skimping along with far 
less
 > > than so-called typical Canadians, and advise the widow and children 
that
 > > Dad‘s thundered in, in unfit equipment?
 > >
 > > God Damn it Ian, lets pay the lousy nickel and spare this scenario!  
You
 > > wind me right up by being this cheap.  Whatever the Parties say
 > >
 > > John
 > >
 > > ----- Original Message -----
 > > From: "Ian Edwards" 
 > > To: 
 > > Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 6:45 PM
 > > Subject: Re: Defence: Canadian Alliance Style
 > >
 > > > Thanks to Dave for giving us the URL on the Reform oops Alliance
 > > > election platform. Two things strike me, one military and the other
 > > > which is, I believe a voice crying in the wilderness more 
important:
 > > > the national debt.
 > > >
 > > > The Ontario Party oops Liberals will reduce the debt by $3 billion 
per
 > > > year and the Alliance by $6 billion. Isn‘t that nice? Drop in the
 > > > bucket. The one thing we can be sure about is that there will be 
another
 > > > economic recession with Dubya coming in, if he does on Tuesday 
night,
 > > > sooner than you think. Keynes‘ General Theory, that all leaders in 
the
 > > > developed nations pay lip service to, in summary, says that you 
overtax
 > > > surplus in good times to be able to overspend in bad times. So, 
when
 > > > bad times come, defence spending will be viewed again as pump priming
 > > > pork barrel employment handouts first, second, and as needed for 
defence
 > > > policy a distant third.
 > > >
 > > > Which leads me to the Alliance web site. They promise to increase
 > > > defence spending by $2 billion per year. They don‘t say where the 
money
 > > > will go specifically, but then no other party ever does at election
 > > > time. They do seem to be trying to cover all bases ie. all voting
 > > > regions and even mention new funds but no specifics of course for
 > > > naval ship building program. Well, that should swing a few votes in 
St.
 > > > John, NB at least. Does our navy need more ships? Well, I guess if we
 > > > were to ask our brothers and sisters in the Senior Service they would
 > > > say, "well, yes, of course, some of our new frigates are what? 15
 > > > years old or so already." So, a chicken in every defence pot and a 
boat
 > > > in every driveway.
 > > >
 > > > In some senses I kind of wish the old international communist party 
was
 > > > still around. At least they had a real Plan. just kidding, just
 > > > kidding!
 > > >
 > > > Oh, and in closing, message to John. Your Lib‘s haven‘t gone out and
 > > > purchased those helecopters yet. As of a couple of weeks ago they 
were
 > > > still determining how to spec the choppers and one potential bidder 
was
 > > > screaming that they were going to spec it so his firm EH101? 
couldn‘t
 > > > bid. I think it‘s not until the spring at least before tenders will 
be
 > > > issued. So, don‘t hold your breath waiting for Sea King replacements.
 > > >
 > > > Pity that soap boxes are made of cardboard and not wood anymore.
 > > > Climbing down for tonight, I remain
 > > > Your ob svt
 > > > Ian G. Edwards, esq.
 > > >
 > > > dave wrote:
 > > > >
 > > > > Before I go rambling on about this subject, I thought it may be 
good to
 > > > > inform members on the list of a comprehensive Canadian Alliance 
Defence
 > > > > paper online at www.unitedalt.org  "Canada Strong and Free - A 
Defence
 > > > > Strategy For The New Millennium.
 > > > >
 > > > > Dave Willard
 > > > >
 > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
 > > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 > > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
 > > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
 > > > > message body.
 > > > --------------------------------------------------------
 > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
 > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
 > > > message body.
 > >
 > > --------------------------------------------------------
 > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
 > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
 > > message body.
 >
 >
--------------------------------------------------------
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to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
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_________________________________________________________________________
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Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
 http://profiles.msn.com. 
--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Jay Digital" <todesengel@home.com>* on *Sun, 12 Nov 2000 04:00:57 -0500*
Don‘t pay attention to what they say. They‘re just jealous that we elect the
government.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joan O. Arc" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2000 3:23 AM
Subject: Re: Defence: Canadian Alliance Style
>
> Beg pardon? Ontario hasn‘ "gotten it‘s financial house in order"? Since
> when?
>
> The deficit is on its way down taxes likewise, to the considerable
> satisfaction and relief of many.
>
> But because Ont. is a jurisdiction where wealth is primarily generated in
> the very human-capital-intensive service industries, instead of by
drilling
> holes in the ground and pumping out whatever is down there, prosperity
here
> is both harder won and somewhat more cyclical and precarious than in the
oil
> patch. Though I know those downturns in oil prices can really pack a
> wallop...
>
> So, the wishes of Ontario voters notwithstanding, "putting the province‘s
> fiscal house in order" is probably a tad trickier than in Alberta, and the
> comment I lobbed in a while ago about using a pinch of salt when taking
> public policy lessons from oil rich jurisdictions whether conservative,
as
> in Alta., or socialist, as in Norway is still, I think, valid...
>
> - Joan
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: "Capt.RW.Nairne,TFBH SO Comd,4212,0901" 
> Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> Subject: Re: Defence: Canadian Alliance Style
> Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 10:20:58 -0500 EST
>
> Have to agree with the rest of the Albertans Francois et al.  The
> financial flexibility that Alberta enjoys has more to do with Alberta
> getting it‘s fiscal house in order by making some very unpopular decisions
> in the early - mid 90s then the high price of the ubiquetous black gold
> under our feet.  The remainder of the provinces incl Ontario have not
> addressed what they really want their provincial government to do.
>
> "Democracy will fail when citizens realize they can vote themselves money"
>
>
> On Monday, November 06, 2000 at 01:04:25 AM, army@cipherlogic.on.ca wrote:
>
>  > John,
>  >
>  >
>  >         Fat-cat province?  We would vote for the devil himself if it
> would
>  > ‘burn‘ Quebec? Uh... isn‘t that just exaggerated rhetoric? This sounds
> just like
>  > the stuff Chretien is spewing out. C‘mon, give it a rest. If you
actually
> were
>  > in Alberta just 3 years ago, you might have noticed we had $11/barrel
> oil. Where
>  > was the rest of the country then? And because Alberta has it‘s
financial
> house
>  > in order now, eliminating the deficit and reducing the debt, this is
our
> fault?!
>  > You know, it sounds like like, sour grapes. Geez John, Lighten up.
>  >
>  > Francois
>  >
>  >
>  > Gow wrote:
>  >
>  > > Geez, Ian, a pretty good line of chat....
>  > >
>  > > as long as you come from a fat-cat bad ***  province, like Alberta...
>  > >
>  > > When the Grits cut the funding through transfer payments, Alberta
> sailed
>  > > through it better than almost anyone else not through economic
theory
> or
>  > > genius at any level, but because they happened to be in "boom" at the
> time
>  > > and date.
>  > >
>  > > Your neighbour, Saskatchewan, came to the point of the Premier
phoning
> the
>  > > PM to say they‘d gone broke.
>  > >
>  > > Any Maritimers out there?  Did this National Debt reduction work for
> you?
>  > >
>  > > Lets not kid ourselves, either, about St Johns getting ship building
>  > > contracts...Quebec gets them and I know Albertans would vote for the
> Devil
>  > > himself, if it would ‘burn‘ Quebec.  The big losers in ship
building,
> in
>  > > fact, come from St Catherines, Welland and Port Colbourne close to
> that
>  > > river that runs NORTH, not south.
>  > >
>  > > Okay, so last election, most people in Ontario saw fit to vote
>  > > Grits...that‘s their right, if I‘m not mistaken.  It does not make
the
> Lib‘s
>  > > the Ontario Party, UNLESS you want to call the Alliance the ALBERTA
>  > > party..sauce for the goose, anyone?
>  > >
>  > > The Libs have reduced the debt by far more than the 3 Billion, or the
>  > > proposed 6 billion....any decent accountant can make numbers dance
> around to
>  > > any theme he as in mind, and I for one, don‘t buy this story line.
> Show me
>  > > a few less people living in the streets.  Show me a serviceman who
had
>  > > his/her wage boosted to abandon the Food Bank or the second job.
Show
> me a
>  > > PRes type that stayed for the real money, on his/her attachment to
some
> far
>  > > off and distant land...and maybe had a job when they came back...but
> not in
>  > > Alberta, that‘s too easy lets try some of the tougher regions of the
>  > > country, where life‘s not so smooth.
>  > >
>  > > Personally, I‘d just like to see one of your retired Alliance
Generals,
>  > > bedecked in his golden parachute, commune with one of the Corporals
> that was
>  > > not offered advancement, pay, prestige and promotion, who got to go
to
> these
>  > > far off and exotic places such as Somalia, Rwhanda, Namibia, Vietnam,
> Haiti,
>  > > Bosnia etc, when times were not good, leadership may have been in
> doubt,
>  > > support was little if at all, and explain career paths and the number
> of
>  > > gongs, and amount of compensation.
>  > >
>  > > Any step to a replacement of the Sea King is a positive one.  So far,
> the
>  > > only people I see making that are the Liberals.  How many more good
men
> do
>  > > you need to hear about dying because it might cost each taxpayer a
> couple of
>  > > dollars over one year to fit them with survivable equipment?  Again,
go
> into
>  > > that MCpl‘s home, look at the family members skimping along with far
> less
>  > > than so-called typical Canadians, and advise the widow and children
> that
>  > > Dad‘s thundered in, in unfit equipment?
>  > >
>  > > God Damn it Ian, lets pay the lousy nickel and spare this scenario!
> You
>  > > wind me right up by being this cheap.  Whatever the Parties say
>  > >
>  > > John
>  > >
>  > > ----- Original Message -----
>  > > From: "Ian Edwards" 
>  > > To: 
>  > > Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 6:45 PM
>  > > Subject: Re: Defence: Canadian Alliance Style
>  > >
>  > > > Thanks to Dave for giving us the URL on the Reform oops Alliance
>  > > > election platform. Two things strike me, one military and the other
>  > > > which is, I believe a voice crying in the wilderness more
> important:
>  > > > the national debt.
>  > > >
>  > > > The Ontario Party oops Liberals will reduce the debt by $3
billion
> per
>  > > > year and the Alliance by $6 billion. Isn‘t that nice? Drop in the
>  > > > bucket. The one thing we can be sure about is that there will be
> another
>  > > > economic recession with Dubya coming in, if he does on Tuesday
> night,
>  > > > sooner than you think. Keynes‘ General Theory, that all leaders in
> the
>  > > > developed nations pay lip service to, in summary, says that you
> overtax
>  > > > surplus in good times to be able to overspend in bad times. So,
> when
>  > > > bad times come, defence spending will be viewed again as pump
priming
>  > > > pork barrel employment handouts first, second, and as needed for
> defence
>  > > > policy a distant third.
>  > > >
>  > > > Which leads me to the Alliance web site. They promise to increase
>  > > > defence spending by $2 billion per year. They don‘t say where the
> money
>  > > > will go specifically, but then no other party ever does at election
>  > > > time. They do seem to be trying to cover all bases ie. all voting
>  > > > regions and even mention new funds but no specifics of course
for
>  > > > naval ship building program. Well, that should swing a few votes in
> St.
>  > > > John, NB at least. Does our navy need more ships? Well, I guess if
we
>  > > > were to ask our brothers and sisters in the Senior Service they
would
>  > > > say, "well, yes, of course, some of our new frigates are what? 15
>  > > > years old or so already." So, a chicken in every defence pot and a
> boat
>  > > > in every driveway.
>  > > >
>  > > > In some senses I kind of wish the old international communist party
> was
>  > > > still around. At least they had a real Plan. just kidding, just
>  > > > kidding!
>  > > >
>  > > > Oh, and in closing, message to John. Your Lib‘s haven‘t gone out
and
>  > > > purchased those helecopters yet. As of a couple of weeks ago they
> were
>  > > > still determining how to spec the choppers and one potential bidder
> was
>  > > > screaming that they were going to spec it so his firm EH101?
> couldn‘t
>  > > > bid. I think it‘s not until the spring at least before tenders will
> be
>  > > > issued. So, don‘t hold your breath waiting for Sea King
replacements.
>  > > >
>  > > > Pity that soap boxes are made of cardboard and not wood anymore.
>  > > > Climbing down for tonight, I remain
>  > > > Your ob svt
>  > > > Ian G. Edwards, esq.
>  > > >
>  > > > dave wrote:
>  > > > >
>  > > > > Before I go rambling on about this subject, I thought it may be
> good to
>  > > > > inform members on the list of a comprehensive Canadian Alliance
> Defence
>  > > > > paper online at www.unitedalt.org  "Canada Strong and Free - A
> Defence
>  > > > > Strategy For The New Millennium.
>  > > > >
>  > > > > Dave Willard
>  > > > >
>  > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
>  > > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>  > > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>  > > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>  > > > > message body.
>  > > > --------------------------------------------------------
>  > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>  > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>  > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>  > > > message body.
>  > >
>  > > --------------------------------------------------------
>  > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>  > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>  > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>  > > message body.
>  >
>  >
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
>
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
>  http://profiles.msn.com. 
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
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----------

