# Cadets vs Boy Scouts (role, "child soldiers", etc.)



## echo

A week ago while i was tagging for my corps, a group of about 4 or so people in their mid 20‘s said to me when i approached them to help support my corp, 
"we hate the army and dont support the militrarization of youth."
this struck me as kind of rude but i shrugged it off and went about my task.
but as the evening progressed i got more and more of the same 
"i dont like the army"
or "army is stupid" and "y are they doing *this* to children" comments by people of the same age group.(one man was rude enough to call us "****ing killers")
by the end of the night i belive about %40 of the people i talked to were opposed to the millitary or just misunderstood what the Cadets were (where %50 didnt care and either gave me money or didnt & %10 were interest in who we were and what we were doing (one elderly gentleman was kind enough to go across the street and buy me and my partner some timbits and coffee) )

I think that most of the general public need to be shown that the Cadets are not a full fledged millitary organization but a DND sponsored YOUTH organization.

The most common question i recieved was "whats the point of cadets?"
That really shocked me because here were parents and students whom have probably at one point in their life been in girl guides,boy scouts,a youth group or SOME kind of youth organization and they were asking me what the point of being in cadets was.


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## Soldier of Fortune

You should have told themm what the point of Cadets was. I can see what your saying about that 40%, when i went tagging I got comments like "I dont support Cadets" as if we were evil or spmething  :evil: ! However most people were not too rude... Maybe thats because we live in a samll town. Also does your Corp do much community activities (e.g. Adopt a Highway) ? I know my Corp does (we won the community thing of the year award   ) and our Corp has quite a bit of respect, maybe thats why?


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## echo

my corps has done a lot of community projects in the past.
from tree planting to baricading for the santa claus parade.
we‘ve also adopted a wooded trail along the rouge vally area.


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## King

Ah, memories of tagging. 

The worst I ever really had tagging is (regularly) putting up with the drunks that saunter on by. They give you the usual spiel about being in Vietnam and then with a crooked salute their on their way.


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## the patriot

The funny thing is that cadets at one point in time used to be mandatory for all high school students until the mid 1960‘s.  I honestly don‘t know why this is no longer the case.  As a result one can see the steady decline in the behaviour of a certain percentage of young people today.  As for all those people that we‘re putting you down and saying "I‘m anti-military", don‘t let them get to you.  These are the same fools who don‘t realize that there are veterans who once wore Army Cadet uniforms (a whole lot of them actually).  Don‘t worry about a thing.  You‘re doing a lot more than some couch potato, obese whiner who sits around all day playing  video games on their Sony PlayStation.

-the patriot-


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## echo

actually as a matter of fact,
the elderly gentleman who bought me and my friend some doughnuts was a major in the brittish army during korea.

the drunks arent too bad sometimes,
one fumbled in his pocket for 10 min looking for money while i held his whiskey for him and i ended up with a $20 bill.


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## Soldier of Fortune

Are Cadets considered civilians? Are they only considered civilians if they are not in uniform?


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## Gunner

Cadets are civilians as they are not members of the Canadian Forces.  You may recall a couple of years ago when cadets were not allowed to be trained on or use the C7 rifle as it was classified as a prohibited weapon under the CCC.

The CIC is a different story.  They are members of the Reserve Force, and hence, are members of the military.


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## delta_whiskey

Well i think that it‘s weird. we‘re stuck in the middle     We‘re certainly civilians compared to the military, they‘ve been working hard to make sure of that, but can you say that you‘re as much of a civilian as your "normal" friends?


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## McG

Q: Are cadets civillians?
A: Yes.


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## King

Cadets are most certainly civilians, I believe that‘s being stressed now more then ever.


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## ender

According to international law, (which Canada has signed of course- we sign everything) countries are not allowed to recruit soldiers under the age 16, or use soldiers under 18 in Combat.  Therefore Cadets have to be civilians.  Nobody wants 15 year olds being killed in battle.


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## Yard Ape

Canadian law outlines that Cadets are civilians.  If they were military, they would be subject to the NDA.  They are not.  

Not even while in uniform do Cadets become anything more than Civilians.

   Yard Ape


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## peanutshel

Cadets are a civilian youth organization.  All Cadet units have to have a sponsor and many are sponsored by the Canadian Forces, or Legions. A good site to visit for information on Cadets is www.cadets.ca


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## comiss

Does anyone find that cadets is becoming to much like boy scouts what ever happened to good old corporal punishment?


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## rceme_rat

He got soft when they made him a Sergeant!


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## comiss

I think there must be something wrong with me then baecause I haven‘t seemed to find my soft spot yet. I don‘t understand what happened before every kid could breeze through pushups and now there are people who struggle to get out 5 it makes me go nuts and then i get in trouble because apparently I‘m pushing the kids too hard.


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## Argyll_2347

I agree, that is one of the reasons I left.  I tryed to improve my corps by planning FTXs that were all patrolling and one big weekend long capture the flag game.  My Training Officer supported them, but not my CO (the computers officer).  Then we got a new training officer from a different corps (the canteen Lt. woman) and she wouldn‘t go anywhere without proper washrooms.  Despite my offerings of myself digging her a personal latrine, we never would go on an exercise.

My advice is you can‘t do anything about it, so just join the army!


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## comiss

Yeah i should wait & join thte regs.


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## Soldier of Fortune

I know, have the same type of problems at my corp. Our PT nightis like a game night and when we actually do PT then half our corp falls out and wont do it.

Thats why i‘m going reserves ASAP.

From Moderator- Watch your language when posting.  Profanity is not needed, nor desired.


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## Coniar

struggle to do 5 push ups??? 
They must be failing Gym in school In grade 8 anything under 14 is a fail. Im far from top condition but I can do 30 at least. I would be in Cadets but my cousin told me what its like and It basically sounds like boy scouts with really strict leaders If I wanted to be in boy scouts Id join the one without the push ups and strict leaders If it was like Cadets is supose to be then I wouldnt mind the Discipline and push ups and such.

Coniar


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## comiss

Yeah I guess some these kids are failing gym but what can say laziness is wining the war.  There aren‘t enough people who actually think working out will help you. I work out about three times a week and I feel great.

                                                Fior-Go-Bas


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## lorraine

i agree with most of you (i am from uk) in a way i blame the parents!!! if anyone says the wrong words to there kids (including teachers) the parents try to sue them so how are these kids meant to learn any sort of discipline. I am a woman and served in the british army and believe me i did not ask for a seperate latrine (as the guy above described) and no I am not a manly woman I have long and I still managed to beat the men at a lot of things. Woman can play on their sex in the Army and it used to piss me off as well but give credit to the women who done it for the joy of soldier and serving their country(and not to see how many men they could lay)and done their soldiering well!!!!


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## Argyll_2347

The general public does not like seeing little 12 year olds running around (or doing drill) with weapons.  This is what I was told...

I think that a resolution would be to form an Canadian Army Cadet Force, like the British one.  This one would emphasize more Army activities.  I don‘t think that this will happen though because it would cost a lot more money, even though it could benefit the Army after the cadets would leave.


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## comiss

I totally agree with both of you but a cadet force something Canada is not prepared to do sure it will benefit the army but lots of people don‘t want that. And because of these people cadets in Canada is the way it is. Besides were supposed to be a peace keeping nation a "military superpower".

                                     Fior-go-Bas


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## peanutshel

Actually the RCAC is a CIVILIAN youth organization that is supported by the military.  The Army Cadets are beginning to get more exciting training (Adventure training) and the "Powers that be" are studying attrition rates and why it is so high.  They realized (finally) that the present training bores most cadets and they are beginning to develop more exciting training.  Hang in there, the changes are just around the corner!


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## Sharpey

I was a range coach for a Cadet Corps not to long ago...with talking to one of their Officers I understand that I beleive it was just the Air Cadets just had their rifles taken away. OK, I‘ve never been a Cadet, but I see Cadet‘s as being one of biggest pools of people to find recruits. If they are to do training similar to Army training, is a rifle not a good thing to learn?


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## peanutshel

Actually, they got certain rifles taken away.  Apparently the sights had a tiny bit of radioactive material in them and the safety of our cadets comes first.  The "powers that be" had to rethink the training because of Insurance/safety purposes and it‘s difficult to wrap the cadet up in cotton wool and maintain a challenging training plan.  From what I‘m hearing, the Adventure training (like white water rafting, mountain climbing, rapelling) has been well received by the cadet.


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## comiss

With this new training it should draw new people into the system wich in turn increase corps sizes.This training is the type of stuff that I have been waiting for my entire career as a cadet. At my home corps we have started a "hardore platoon" for those like myself who strive for excellence the only drawback is I have to drop playing in the duty band quite a dilema!    
                                         Fior-go-Bas


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## the patriot

This is actually quite debatable.  While wearing your uniform and cap brass of your affiliated unit, you are subject to the Code of Service Discipline.  Furthermore, when you are on contract as a Staff Cadet, you are automatically subject to rules similar to that of military personnel in the reserves or the regs running similar courses.  So in essence, this concept that "cadets are civillians" will only go so far.  Ever been on a range with an RSO and fire a military rifle?  Screw up on that range and you will definitely not be treated like a civillian.

-the patriot-


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## spacemarine

"While wearing your uniform and cap brass of your affiliated unit, you are subject to the Code of Service Discipline"

Sorry that‘s not true at all. Cadets don‘t fall under that they have thier own CATOs. A cadet cannot be charged through their system, it goes to civilian court.


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## cs11sunray

A Cadet is not subject to the Code. a staff Cadet is bound by a body of regulations similiar to and modeled on the CSD.

If an individual is not bound by the Code of Service Discipline, is paid for their services only after reaching a contractual agreement on a case-by-case basis, and belongs to an organization which recieves a large portion of it‘s funding from sources other than the CF or DND, it may be said that the individual is not a member.

However, there is a certain grey area, as a cadet is far more involved with the CF than a lot of adult civvies.


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## sgtdixon

The "Powers that Be" are messing everything up. I myself am a fifth year Air Cadet (868 Rcacs Fort McMurray) and with the introduction of the CHAP program,(Cadet Harrassment Abuse Protection) my squadron is no longer able to do wargames, two years ago we used to do manuevers with the local army cadet corps and we had a blast, we even had a few paintball wars along the line. but now with CHAP we can no longer "emulate" the military as it would present a bad image to the public. Uh i may be mistaken but the aim of the Cadet Movement is to promote an active interest in all aspects of the Canadian Armed Forces, oh wait were not armed anymore its too "militaristic"


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## MP 811

Cadets are civilians...........period.  End of story.  We can talk about this until the cows come home.  You are sponsored by your affiliated unit and that‘s the extent of it.


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## Ray

A cadet is a stepping stone to the CF and no more!!!!!!!
the way you think can we call in the cubs to that would be great serve with my son !!


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## smackdaddy

Cadets are considered civilians, and right they should be. The Cadet corp of Canada serves as a usefull tool to let the youth of today grow up with a little discipline and a small understanding of the CF. As for CIL members they are there to teach these kids the book of the military, it is a shame that some of the instructors (with rank) feel that reg soldiers and dedicated reserves should treat them the same, I do have a small problem with that as in they did their tests, practiced their skills of teaching etc... yet have never left their home town. When you eat the dirt and do the time then you don‘t need to run around telling everyone how you should be respected. Please do not take this as a slam, they serve a great purpose but leave the soldiering to the soldiers. This is my point of veiw with 12 years in the Army(all reg).


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## toms3

Cadet = a more military informed civilian.

   :rocket:  :warstory:


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## ArmyBoyzGurl

well, seeing as i‘m still IN cadets.. (air to be exact   :blotto:  ) employed as a staff cadet, we are under the military code of conduct, because we are employees of dnd..we have service numbers and are employed on bases.. thats all i gotz to say..    ciao!


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## Gunner

And you are still a civilian.


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## ArmyBoyzGurl

yes, because i‘m not employed by dnd right now, and plus, i‘m not in the canadian forces..


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## Gunner

Sorry, I thought you were implying that you were something that you are not.


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## ArmyBoyzGurl

lol, oh no! i‘m just agreeing with whomever said that when cadets are at staff during the summer, they ARE technically NOT civilians, because we are employed by DND...and when at our home units, we are civilians, because during the summer, we‘re on a contract, just as regular foce members are on 3 year (ish) contracts, we are on 8 week contracts to follow the military code of conduct, n such.  big job for a bunch of 16-18 yr olds.. *wipes brow*
  :warstory:


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## Ian

Civilians employed by DND are still civilians.


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## ArmyBoyzGurl

mehn..we still work under the military code of conduct during the summer if we‘re staf cadets..whatever.. dont wanna argue about it...


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## Gunner

> they ARE technically NOT civilians, because we are employed by
> DND


In this case you are completely incorrect.  A cadet is a civilian, whether they are on a paid contract or not.  I‘m not sure why you would even suggest that you were a member of the CF.  I don‘t believe you are subject to the code of service discipline...why would you be?


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## Lawrence

They actaully might be subject to the CSD.  I just cant recall if civilian emplyees that are working on contract for DND are subject too.  If they are then in theroy so are cadets if not well...


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## garb811

Errr...no!  Having policed a Cadet Camp or three I can assure you Cadets are not, and never will be.  If a Cadet gets in the poop, even if staff at a Camp, the case *must* go downtown if prosecution is warranted.


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## combat_medic

You are subject to the rules of the camp on which you‘re located. You‘re NOT subject to the code of service discipline, but you‘re still a part of this country and subject to the rules and laws governing it. You‘re not prosecuted by military courts, and cannot be fined, or have any military action taken against you. You can still get charged in civilian courts and go to jail, like anyone else in this country.

I worked at an air cadet camp this summer and saw PLENTY of infractions that would have merited charges under the CSD, but the cadets were sent home, or sent through civilian police (depending on the severity of the case).

Cadets ARE civilians. Whether you‘re staff or not, you‘re still a civilian. Just as was mentioned previously, DND employs civilians everywhere, and while they may have a service number and sign a contract, they‘re civilians nonetheless.


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## MP 811

Actually combat_medic, I was called to the Albert Head Cadet Camp on several occaisons to investigate cadets for various offences throughout the time frame of the cadet camp.We never called in the civilian police because its not their jurisdicition.  Your right about civilian court though, we would just process the charge through there instead of military court.

securitas


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## BestOfTheBest

FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!  :fifty:    :mg:


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## GGHG_Cadet

Cadets are civillians we may do similiar things as the military but we‘re civillians. Cadets is a youth program that introduces teenagers to the military.


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## Jason Jarvis

It‘s been just over ten years since I graduated from the air cadets (WO2, 507 Kentville RCACS), and I‘m looking into joining the CIC. I had tried to join after graduation, but the medical standards for the CIL (as it was known at the time) were as tight as the PRes, and my uncorrected vision was -- and remains -- terrible.

However, after a lot of encouragement from an old cadet buddy who is currently a Capt in the CIC, I went down to the CFRC and asked them whether anything had changed -- and it has. I apparently just need to find a unit with an opening and convince the CO to accept me "as is" -- I‘ll only be instructing cadets, after all, not climbing mountains in Afghanistan.

Anyways, now that you know my life‘s story, how much have things changed in ten years?

I attended the Aircrew Survival Instructor Course in Bagotville in 1991, and it was pretty tough -- we did 5 days with no food in the bush, a 2.5 km cold water swim, timed overnight land navigation exercises, 10 km canoe trip with multiple portages, etc., all in just six weeks.

I taught the next summer at Greenwood, and the regional version of this course was extremely watered down -- no night marches, solo survival treks or isolation camps, only a 1 km swim. Wimpy, wimpy, wimpy.

I would prefer to join an army cadet unit, primarily because army cadets USED to do all the fun things I wasn‘t allowed to do as an air cadet: largebore target shooting, jump course, adventure training, etc. Is this still the case?

I just want to know what I can expect. Thanks!


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## GGHG_Cadet

Army Cadets is totaly different now becausew of CHAP. My Corp does tons of shooting we‘ve shot largebore but it is still wimpy and very slack. I really wish I could do something u get no respect at all from cadets mainly cause I‘m only 13 and there all 15-16. According to CHAP I‘m not allowed to give push-ups.


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## ArmyBoyzGurl

as a present WO2 of 386 RCAirCs in comox BC,  the giving of pushups, ghcg cadet, is that you have to do them as well.  CHAP is not set up to make cadets slack, it was set up to protect cadets... the same reason we have the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.  

In response to the first post, one of my Fsgts went on the Survival Instructor Course last summer, i can get a run down of what they did and get back to you if you want.  you also might want to check out www.cadets.ca there‘s tons of stuff on the website including how to join the CIC.

have fun!


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## ArmyBoyzGurl

sorry, my bad.. GGHG_cadet...


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## Irish

I‘m a master warrent officer with 2915 IROC in Sudbury Ontario, The standard for CIC applicants has dropped dramtically in the past years, not only can you fail you physical but aptitude test as well and you can still be accepted. It‘s a good system and is very benefical to the cadets and the CIC can use as many competent officers as they could get. 

   As for the chap issue it helps in certain situations but is still a nucince when it comes down to training, cadets are not boy scouts so the should not be treated like them and if this invlovs yelling and some firmness so be it chap should not get in the way of that.


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## Jason Jarvis

What does CHAP stand for? How easy is it to work around? I was never a hard-*** , sadistic SoB, but I strongly believe there‘s value in "tough love!"  :mg:


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## GGHG_Cadet

CHAP stands for Cadet Harassment Abuse Prevention (I think). I do know that it is there to protect cadets but it can be a real pain in the A$$ at times because there are those cadets who are awalys outta line and really need discipline but cause of CHAP u cant. And yes we also do it with them but we are realyy not supposed to be giving them unless we‘re doin the fitness badges.


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## ArmyBoyzGurl

Well, CHAP is a pain, and some people do find it tough to deal with cadets that constantly need "reminders".. you need to develop a leadership style that enables you to deal with those situations.  Use the cadets‘ attitude to your advantage, and also, use your NCO‘s, WO‘s, and Officers if need be.  If you dont have the necessary chain of command in your corps, how do you expect anyone in your corps to respect eachother and the ranks held???

respect is not a right, its a privelege.


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## Jarnhamar

"I attended the Aircrew Survival Instructor Course in Bagotville in 1991, and it was pretty tough -- we did 5 days with no food in the bush, a 2.5 km cold water swim, timed overnight land navigation exercises, 10 km canoe trip with multiple portages, etc., all in just six weeks."

This is something the reserves should put into their basic training. I don‘t think many reservests are taught to fend for themselves in the woods for 5 days. (By that i mean none) Thats something i really respect about the cadets.
 A lot of cadets seem to complain that they don‘t get to do "army" stuff like section attacks (Their not very fun after the 3rd time) or shooting guns etc.. but you guys make up for it in a lot of other areas.


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## Jason Jarvis

Ghost778,

I was one of those cadets who complained about not doing "army stuff," but I was an air cadet so it was a bit of a moot point!     I made up for this by joining the rifle team (we still had .22s then) and becoming a survival instructor.

But cadets isn‘t so much about doing "army stuff" as it is developing the all-around skills and confidences that young people need in order to thrive and succeed in today‘s world. This might sound corny, but I firmly believe that I‘m the man I am today -- both good and bad -- because of what I did and learned in cadets.

My wife isn‘t crazy about me joining the CIC because she doesn‘t like the fact that I would become a reservist -- she‘s worried I could get called up. I‘ve told her that there‘s no way in h*ll this would happen, and that if it did we‘d have bigger problems to worry about -- hello, mothership!   

If I hadn‘t spent that summer tramping around the Quebec wilderness, I probably never would‘ve become a skydiver, went to grad school or met my wife -- and that‘s not a life I can even imagine.

Of course a lot of cadets go on to join the military, that‘s one of the reasons for the existence of cadets. But it‘s not the only one, and I would argue not even the most important one. Canada needs confident, well-rounded individuals who can think for themselves, don‘t mind working hard and want to make this country the best it can be.


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## Jarnhamar

I figured you would be   

I agree with you 100% though. Cadets have a lot to offer kids growing up. But like with anything in life, if they get in the wrong crowd/ wrong set or morals they can get in soume crap.

One thing that drives me nuts is always seeing ex cadets who join the reserves then go and chat up the cadets telling war stories and acting like their some big important person because they fired off some blank rounds one summer - proceed to think they should get special treatment in the reserves because they were an rsm in cadets yadda yadda and lastly make fun of cadets in chat rooms or in person for being immature (young). Of course their going to act like that,  they are between 12 and 17 what do they expect.

How long has that CHAPS thing been around? It seems pretty new but i figured it would have been common sence to have something like that years ago.


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## Jason Jarvis

Poke me for saying this if you want to, but I believe those cadets who do join the reserves and spend all their time telling war stories to current cadets lack proper role models and mentors in the form of NCMs in their parent units. Someone needs to sit these punks down and lay down the law -- they‘re not only making themselves look bad, but their words and actions dishonour their unit.

I‘m not up to snuff on CHAP, but things were already starting to soften up in 1992 when I taught as a staff cadet. We weren‘t allowed to push the cadets half as hard as I was pushed just the year before. It‘s a fine line between pushing an individual to their limit and beyond, and actually abusing them. Then again, maybe there isn‘t a difference?

If I can locate a unit with an open spot, I‘ll be sure to let the members know exactly what‘s expected of CIC officers and how they‘re prepared for their roles.


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## ArmyBoyzGurl

..in regards to CHAP, its the updated version of the SHARP system.. just a new way to "protect" kids... but, i had a kid, who had ADHD, he‘d pretend to have seizures in the middle of a parade to get attention, and there was NOTHING we could do.. we had his mom talk to the CO and everything..we withheld rank..4th year and still an LAC (1st appointed "rank" in air cadets) ... finally he just quit.. to our UTTER relief.....

Also.. if you guys have questions about CIC, or units that need CIC officers, check out www.cadets.ca - - all the info you‘ll need, i think....


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## Jarnhamar

I think even the regular army even has problems with getting rid of people who are obviously unfit for the army. It seems the best way to deal with a problem is to pass it on to another regiment.

I know physical fitness is an important part of cadets but can a 12 or 13 year old kid be expected to be physically as mature as a 17 or 18 year old?  I‘m not sure how it works in cadets outside of what i‘ve observed a few times.


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## Jason Jarvis

Maybe I should‘ve been a little more clear: I didn‘t just mean physically tough, but mentally as well. Nobody on my course in Quebec dropped out because they were out of shape, but we had a lot of problems with guys -- and girls -- who couldn‘t handle the mental pressures forced on us by the staff.

To give you an example of what I mean (and please don‘t think I‘m bragging), here‘s what happened on our 5 day survival exercise:

Up at 5 am for PT

Strip search -- and I mean totally. We had to hand over our clothes the night before to make sure we weren‘t sneaking anything. We had to strip naked, walk across a mod tent and pick up our "certified" clothes.

Lead back to the parade square and sat down, under threat of hard PT (running around the parade square with a fire extinguisher over your head, no less) if you spoke or looked at anyone.

Loaded on a school bus with pillow cases over our heads so we couldn‘t tell where we were going.

Arrived at the DZ an hour later and organized into groups on the spot -- and with no say on who you‘d get stuck with.

Everyone issued five wooden matches and an empty canteen. Each group received one rusty jack-knife.

Taken by boat to sites scattered around the edges of the lake, with a minimum of 500 m separation between groups. The lake had been flooded for logging, so the sides were extremely steep and the brush very thick -- no one would be visiting (almost).

Each group received one full jerrycan of water and told to hoard it, because we might or might not get any more. Oh, and don‘t drink the water unless you want beaver fever.

The next morning the staff came and picked us up and dropped us off for our solo survival exercise which would be "At least 24 hours, maybe more."
It hailed that day, in the middle of July, and all I managed to do was to get my lean-to up and stand over the fire to keep it from going out. It didn‘t work, so I cheated -- I humped along the lakeshore to where I thought another group was and begged for a burning stick, which I managed to get back and re-start my fire. That was one long, cold, wet lonely night, and I don‘t think I‘ve ever been so scared in my life. I never had a chance to build traps, dig a latrine, go fishing, nothing. I didn‘t score very well on that component of the exercise. . . .

Once we finished the solo part the next day we were all brought back togther. For the next four days, we gathered wood, rebuilt our shelter, scavenged for bugs, grubs, worms, rabbits, green blueberries, ate lots of plaintain (yuck!) and dreamed about steaks, cheeseburgers and the groups with girls.

Two of the five in my group started to have a rough go of it on day four, and we had to slap them around a little bit to shock them into doing anything. Nothing to rough, mind you, just some mild pushing and verbal abuse. Another one of the guys just clammed up and went around gathering wood with this stupid grin on his face -- he was incredible, he never stopped. He was always bringing in wood. Me and the other guy, well, we just tried to do our part, which wasn‘t much. Bob started to go a little loopy and I got punchy, and he had to settle me down by pushing me into the lake. This was actually a big deal, because by the third day all most of us could do was crawl around -- we were too weak to walk. Our bodies eventually did recover, and by noon on day four we could all walk again, albeit very slowly.

This is why I have such a hard time with "Survivor". . . .

Yes, it was physically very demanding. But it was also incredibly stressful mentally. When we all returned to base on the evening of the fifth day, we all felt like supermen. There wasn‘t anything we couldn‘t do -- or wouldn‘t try.

Walking into the mess hall was pretty cool, too. It was like Moses and the Red Sea -- the lines just melted away. Sure, we all reeked after five days in the bush with no soap  :blotto:  , but the other cadets and staff treated us with a lot more respect because they had all been told what we had just gone through.

Now, does this compare to combat? Of course not! Most of us were 17 or 18, so I guess we would‘ve been the same age as a recruit straight out of high school, and the same age as many soldiers for millenia. But for your average teenager, this was pretty tough -- especially because we didn‘t get any warm-ups. No field, night firing or FIBUA exercises, just straight into the bush with nothing but the clothes on your back and five matches.

We had no idea what to expect, but we all pulled together and got the job done. Those two guys never held a grudge against us for giving them a hard time, and both told me later that they would‘ve quit if we hadn‘t stepped in.

Now, you could always say this was just teenage bravado, but I took a lot of pictures that summer, and all I see in their faces now is confidence. Knowing that I made it through this kind of test has made a big difference in my life, and I just wish more teenage know-it-alls had the chance to experience this and get knocked down a few notches.

Sometimes a little humility goes a long way. . . .


----------



## 311

Whats up with the dress of cadets while on base.As a reservist its amazing seeing about a million cadets walk into the mess looking like there going to the mall. I saw one cadet wearing a dog chain and a dog collar...with gelled long hair ( it was a guy ). 

Since cadets is reconized by the army I think they should bring there standards up so they look like everybody else.


----------



## Irish

Now thats an exercise that I would be proud of. you see the CIC tend to treaT cadets more like boy scouts now days and use chap as an exuse to stop anything that might involve work or responsibility. My DSM and myself take our cadet corps on a 12km ruc march each time we have trg. in the bush. Sure not all our numbers go the whole distance but for the ones that do once they return to the biv they have a very strong sence of self and achivement, that in itself is worth leading them. sure we dont do section attacks but thats not what it‘s all about in the cadet system(although it would be intersting)   :mg: 

I‘m not sure about how it works in Halifax but in Ontario at some bases the cadets aren‘t even allowed to wear civi‘s, it‘s either PT geaR OR Combats what ever the dress of the day is. But i tent to agree on how some cadets should look more like cadets if we are to be assosiated with the millitary, mabe they shopuldent look like hippie‘s or punks etc.


----------



## Jason Jarvis

Well, it looks like I won‘t be joining the CIC any time soon. A friend of mine called a buddy of his in Shearwater to ask him about exemptions from the vision standards for CIC applicants, and he said they don‘t exist -- despite what the CFRC told me. On the plus side, however, colour vision doesn‘t matter for CIC officers, so at least I don‘t have to worry about that.   

So I‘m going to volunteer as a civilian instructor with the 48th Highlanders RCACC. They‘re stuck into a corner in the basement at Moss Park and they could use my help. Like many cadet units -- especially inner city units -- they have a big problem with recruiting and keeping cadets, and since my job is all about developing strategy, planning and communicating, I think I could really help them out.

Listening to the pipes and drums of the 48th practice on Tuesday night brought back a flood of memories. When I was at Camp Argonaut in 1990, all the senior courses paraded through downtown Moncton in celebration of its 100th anniversary of being incorporated as a city. The cadet rifle instructor course served as the colour party, so we marched right behind the massed pipes and drums. They were so loud marching through the downtown that they could be heard for miles. It was great, the best parade ever -- even better than the 50th anniversary of the air cadets in 1992.

Since I‘m a little rusty and will be feeling my way for the next little while, don‘t be surprised if I ask a lot of questions on this forum of the BB. Any advice members care to give would be greatly appreciated!

Now, where‘s my kilt . . . ?


----------



## Sgt.Fitzpatrick

Is cadets becoming to soft? Tell me.I think cadets should be much harder and more like the army , air force and navy.
I think cadets should have more work outs . Some people think cadets are bad because they have kids who are "soldiers".
Whats so about have kids who want to sevre there Canada?


----------



## Sgt.Fitzpatrick

I 'm a cadet and I consider myself apart of the Canadain Forces, that what I think people in class think a green beret that can be fun they buy all my stories. 

 ME :"I drive tanks"
 Kids in my class:"Cool"  :tank:


----------



## Scratch_043

Fitzpatrick, that is known as misrepresentation and fraud, and, ironically, if cadets were members of the CF, you would be charged for that impersonation of rank/position, etc.

_take it easy, I'm just josh'n with ya_

Added after posting:

I was also a cadet, and, yes, it was fun to dress up and play soldier, but make no mistake about it, cadets are not a part of the CF, in fact, My Sq. had some trouble because we were being housed, sponsored, etc. by the local air force wing.


----------



## sgt_mandal

I'm not arguing against anyone as I know that cadets are still very much civilians, but, if we are so civilian, than why are we still dressed in uniform, addressed by rank, taught by instructors (not teachers) and follow almost the exact same drill as members of the CF (among other things)? I know Cadets is supposed to "stimulate an interest in the Canadian Forces", but why lead us to believe things that aren't true, and by this I am referring to less learned cadets who think that because of all of the reasons mentioned above, think they are real soldiers. If they wanted to really stimulate and interest in the CF, then they should prepare us better so it's not such a smack in the face when we get "charged". 

I hope you see the point I am so desperately trying to make.


----------



## Lexi

Cadets are civilians. Simple as that. So tell me again why we're arguing about it?  :-\
Cadets = Civilians. (Note the period.)

Lex


----------



## combat_medic

Boy scouts wear uniforms, have rank (in a sense), are taught by instructors, and do similar foot drill to the CF, but no one is asking if a 6-year old beaver scout is a civilian or not. 

Cadets are a youth organization sponsored by the military, who have adopted similar aspects to military life, although a great deal of dissimilarities remain. A decade or two ago, cadets had a lot more strenuous training, handled heavier weapons, and could be treated more like soldiers, although this still didn't change the fact that they were kids and civilians. Since then, parents have complained about the training being "too military" and so the training has been seriously toned down. Also, at no point will any CIC instructor (at least a competant one) tell you that you are a soldier, or are anything other than a civilian. If you choose to believe otherwise, that's your choice, but it doesn't make it the truth, no matter what other cadets may tell you.


----------



## mclipper

Exactly!!!!!  Not only are cadets civilians, but even CIC (although they are members of the CF) CAN'T be deployed.  They can also NOT transfer to a PRes unit or the Reg F.  They do not have to meet the same standard that all other members of the CF do.  Basically, they are just barely members of the CF.


----------



## Eowyn

mclipper said:
			
		

> Exactly!!!!!   Not only are cadets civilians, but even CIC (although they are members of the CF) CAN'T be deployed.   They can also NOT transfer to a PRes unit or the Reg F.   They do not have to meet the same standard that all other members of the CF do.   Basically, they are just barely members of the CF.



Hmm... funny considering 4 of our officers transferred from the CIC.  In fact one is attached posted while their transfer goes through.  Of course for the transfer to be processed, they do have to meet the same standards as someone off the street.


----------



## Scratch_043

mclipper said:
			
		

> Exactly!!!!!   Not only are cadets civilians, but even CIC (although they are members of the CF) CAN'T be deployed.   They can also NOT transfer to a PRes unit or the Reg F.   They do not have to meet the same standard that all other members of the CF do.   Basically, they are just barely members of the CF.


CIC Officers are Part of the CF Reserves. they are in a sub group of reserves, but are no less soldiers than any other in a reserve unit. The lieutenant(now as captain, I believe) in my former Sq. served a few peacekeeping tours, so that is a complete BS line.


----------



## mclipper

If you read the CFAOs and QR & Os you would see I'm not making this up.  During the recruiting process, CIC applicants do not take the CFAT, they do not do the Express Test, and they also do not have to meet the same medical standards that everyone else does.  In order for them to join another branch of the CF, they are required to go back and do all of those things.  If you have officers in your unit that "transferred" without doing that, they are not there legally.  Sorry, like it or not, just stating facts.


----------



## Redeye

ToRN said:
			
		

> CIC Officers are Part of the CF Reserves. they are in a sub group of reserves, but are no less soldiers than any other in a reserve unit. The lieutenant(now as captain, I believe) in my former Sq. served a few peacekeeping tours, so that is a complete BS line.



He did his tours as a member of some other component, not as a member of the CIC.  CIC officers are members of the CF, as a subcomponent of the Primary Reserve, but I don't think anyone in the PRes or in the Reg F considers them soldiers unless they have actually previously served.  For them to transfer to a PRes unit entails the same process that a regular civilian would have to go to.  They don't have to meet anywhere near the same standards to join the CIC directly off the street.

That said, there are many, many CIC officers who are former soldiers, so you can't simply say that they all are or aren't soldiers without determining what else their careers have entailed.


----------



## AmmoTech90

mclipper said:
			
		

> Exactly!!!!!  Not only are cadets civilians, but even CIC (although they are members of the CF) CAN'T be deployed.  They can also NOT transfer to a PRes unit or the Reg F.  They do not have to meet the same standard that all other members of the CF do.  Basically, they are just barely members of the CF.



Actually according to QR&O 10.06 there is nothing that would prevent a member of the CIC from transferring between sub-components of the reserve unless the CIC officer is also a member of the RCMP.  In fact, if the transfer did not increase the obligations of the member (not likely) it could be done without the members consent.  I would think the RCMP clause is there to allow them to participate in youth programmes in isolated communities while not affecting their ability to carry out their policing duties.

As far as cadets being military I agree they are not.  I was in a British boy scout patrol in Greece and we did more drill and field craft than some reg force pers.  Still didn't make us military.  Might have been we just had warlike leaders.  I remember the first night we had parade after the Falklands were invaded we showed up and there were piles of lumber and rope at one end of the parking lot and a maniquins at the other.  We had to build catapults and launch spikey objects at the "Argies".  Somehow I don't think that would fly in this day and age.  On a sadder note we got to tour HMS Sheffield when she came into port, just after that she headed to the South Atlantic where she was lost      Excellent crew who were more than happy to answer our questions and demonstrate their kit.  Even after that we were still just Boy Scouts.


----------



## childs56

umm the argument of a 16 year old not in the military is crap lots of them in reserve units across the country. one thing i remember was that when a cadet went away as staff they had to be 16 years of age and were subject to the CSD but to a lesser degree then a reg force or reserve member. they in turn were given a short term contract as a reserve memeber. pay was terrible if i remember right,  as for sending them downtown to be charged yes they did for convictions that could be tried by civiey court, the same as the reg or reserve force, their have been alot of changes throu out the last few years and i really dont know any upto date details about this. no a cadet is not a memeber of the cf but when they sign a contract as a staff cadet they are sujuct to certain rights and responsibilties that are not normally asscoitied with regular civilian life. i always thought that cadets generally handled all their small discplineary problems in a military fasion. ie military police and such, my two cents worth and good subject for maybe the higher ups that have auctual written documents to refer to and maybe put a copy on here for future reference have a good days gus.


----------



## Ranger

Hey,
I don't know but I don't think cadets is too soft. I think if it was too hard on us the numbers would drop drastically. 
There's nothing wrong with having kids who want to serve their country.


----------



## Infanteer

Well, you guys really insist on bringing this up again, but if hanging your peepees out makes you snake-eaters feel happy....


----------



## Limpy

Oh I agree. But it will never happen. If you read the book STAND BY YOUR BEDS you  will notice that the Army Cadets at the Vernon Summer Training Camp in 1953 were all trained as if they were actual Reg Force. In fact they had Reg Force Sgt.'s and Cpl's as instructors as well as Militia too. Cadets would do push ups and be called "pongo soldiers" for there f*** ups and so on. Try disciplining Cadets like that today you'd be CHAP'ed demoted or even sent packing. The watering down of Cadets began I believe when girls were introduced into the cadet system. Don't get me wrong, I believe that girls should be allowed in Cadets it's just that people seem to have this stigma that women or girls have to have things slightly easier. Well that may be true in fitness standards (be that your own opinion) I however don't believe that in discipline matters. That doesn't however mean I condon sexual remarks or say making light of ones weight problem to teach him or her a lesson. The other thing I believe that can be attributed to the watering down of Cadets was the U.N. Back in the 80's and 90's the U.N. really started to frown upon child soldiers (ex. Sierra Leone). As you probably know Cadets in the 50' and 60's had weapons training on service weapons that the Regular Army was using ( my dad remembers as an ex army Cadet shooting the C1's at Volkes range in Chilliwack). But when the U.N. made noise about goings on in Africa, Canada decided to stop letting Cadets receive training on military tactics and weapons and instead wants them to focus on matters like "citizenship". The Canadian public was no help either for producing comments like "Cadets are training the killers of tomorrow". Then because of a few bad apples the Cadet programme got the CHAP programme, which was to me is the final nail in the coffin for Cadets and discipline. So to sum things up political correctness seems to be winning out in this country thus far so don't expect to be on a recon ex with full kit with C7 and C9's  anytime soon.


----------



## sgt_mandal

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Well, you guys really insist on bringing this up again, but if hanging your peepees out makes you snake-eaters feel happy....



If these topics do not apeal to you, why do you keep reading them?


----------



## condor888000

I don't know about army or sea cadets but I do know that air cadets do do things that are related to the air element of the CF. 
Sgt_Fitzpatrick, 
You say you've been in cadets for 2 years. Why are you complaining? In the past two years, cadets has not gotten any softer. At least officially. I know that certain things have been removed, for good reason. For example, at Baggotville, Aircrew/SI's aren't allowed to eat what they kill any more since a few cadets became sick after doing so. Does that strike you as being too soft?

Limpy,
CHAP did remove many of the techniques that were used to disipline cadets. It didn't get rid of all of them though. If you call a twelve year old a pongo solider because they made a mistake, it wouldn't leave a good impression. Do you think that if a cadet came home and said "Mommy, the intructers insulted me, yelled at me and made me fell like shat" they'd be allowed back?

The bottom line is, the world has changed since cadets was introduced, and so cadets had to change to remain a going concern. I think they've done it fairly well. The one thing I would do is change the teaching of CHAP. I had one cadet threaten to CHAP me because he failed a test in one of my courses. That is too far.

Can we please stop bringing this up? It's getting rather repative.


----------



## chalk1

...sigh.

Im gone for ONE weekend and you guys ruffle Infanteers feathers.

All this has already been discussed in a thread debating whether combat training should be involved in the cadet program(this is not -I say again- NOT an invitation to renew that particular conversation). How soft or hard cadets is on an individual level depends on your own staff at local and up to Area level.

As for the difficulty of the program, don't claim/complain that it's 'too soft" until you've actually had experience with it. In the past 2 years, I've travelled to the UK, trained with the paras, the Royal Marines Commandos, the Royal Engineers etc, in some basic infantry skills, Urban warfare training, attended the Frimley park leadership course, visited Vimy Ridge, Beaumont-Hamel, Jumped out of an aircraft 5 times, and climbed 4 mountains, just to name a few. Not that Im blowing my own horn, but before complaining about the program, try looking into what there is available to challenge you, then train and prepare for it. After you have done this, THEN come in here and give intelligent critiques of the program.


----------



## Limpy

Well, I think sgt-mandal has a point. If this is a subject that people want to keep bringing up let them. If you don't like it, forget it. However there are new people joining this site everyday that may have something to say on the issue. So let them. It's called freedom of speech. Now condor888000 I may have came over a little biased on the CHAP thing. CHAP has done some good in preventing sexual harassment and so forth. I also know it ruined my old Air Cadet Sqd. It's not easy dealing with Corporals that didn't mind telling me to "shove it" and all you can do is refer them to the Warrent and then a little speech by an officer and there just back in flight doing what they did previously.

Oh by the way, I warned the Cpl. about three times before refering him to the Warrent.


----------



## rdschultz

Why do people on internet forums always insist on pulling out the freedom of speech card?  This forum offers no freedom of speech other than that which Mike Bobbit allows.  He does a very good job of allowing it, but if he and the moderators under his ultimate command don't want you to say something, they can tell you not to say it.  EDIT:  I'm not trying to say that Infanteer was speaking as a moderator in any fashion, just so we're clear. My point is just that there is no freedom of speech here.  

Also, that works both ways.  If you want the 'right' to beat your drum a billion times, don't complain when Infanteer plays some backup music.


----------



## Infanteer

> If these topics do not apeal to you, why do you keep reading them?



As a moderator I must keep an eye on all threads to ensure the board is up to fighting form.

My statement comes from the fact that I see a new thread on this exact same subject every second month.


----------



## Limpy

Okay hoser you do have a point. But I'm sure if Infanteer had a real big problem with this topic he would have already shut it down. If he does or any other moderator does, I'll repsect the chain of command and not feel any gripes towards them.


----------



## chalk1

Limpy said:
			
		

> . If this is a subject that people want to keep bringing up let them. If you don't like it, forget it. However there are new people joining this site everyday that may have something to say on the issue. So let them. It's called freedom of speech.


Firstly, we are all of us guests or invitees of Mr Bobbit. He offers us this great forum at the expense of his and others' resources and time. Wasting these by restarting threads about previously discussed topics is not a very respectful manner of conducting yourselves. New members have the option of conducting searches, or merely going back a few pages in a chosen area of the forum to research before posting. Take the time, read through and find that reasonable conclusions have already been attained on these matters.

As for Infanteer...Im pretty scared of the guy, so Ill zip it. But Infanteer, I commend you on your patience. Anyone have any comments before this thread bites the dust?


----------



## chalk1

I believe that the problem we are facing here is, as well as in other forums, is an identity crisis, which can be seen in other threads in this forum. People in society are so used to the fact that a military prepares for combat and all-out war that they simply can't fathom the concept of the cadet organisation. It's pretty simple, really; it was answered in the second posting of this topic. Yes, cadets are civilians, but have joined an organisation which fashions itself after the military due to historic ties. These have been carried over to what is now an excellent youth organisation, offering challenging and valuable training free of charge to the participant(thus promoting fairness and equality, fundamentals to our democracy). If, at the age of 16, the cadet feels he/she needs a further challenge and enjoys the military organisation, he/she may join the reserves.


----------



## sgt_mandal

Infanteer said:
			
		

> If these topics do not apeal to you, why do you keep reading them?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As a moderator I must keep an eye on all threads to ensure the form is up to fighting form.
> 
> My statement comes from the fact that I see a new thread on this exact same subject every second month.
Click to expand...


Than why don't you stick to moderating as opposed to participating?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Lad, 
Don't pick a fight on the internet, its unmanly.
BRUCE


----------



## sgt_mandal

OK I just realized what I said was a little harsh. But do you not agree that you could have been a little nicer?


----------



## NavyGrunt

"Cadets isnt hard enough....."

"Please be nicer infanteer......"

??????????? :evil:


----------



## Limpy

Yep. I think I shall quit poking my nose in this thread. This horse is one thats been flogged enough, I see now. :-X


----------



## Infanteer

> OK I just realized what I said was a little harsh. But do you not agree that you could have been a little nicer?



I gave up being nice 1700 posts ago....


----------



## SOLDIER702

Cadets is a youth organization with three aims, 
1. devolop citizenship
2. develop physical fitness
3. stimulate an intrest in the canadian forces

Though I will agree that the cadet system is sometimes too easy, The government has to be cautious. Most cadets have heard stories of when things got too hard, end eventually got out of hand. It is an issue that has been talked about throughout the cadet system for years and it isn't going to change anytime soon. If you don't like it there are a few things you can do. Write a letter to the director of cadets. Join the reserves (you can join at the age of 16).


----------



## Sgt.Fitzpatrick

To anyone who say thay seen the same form idea means it's popure and the depine of cadets has gone down when I give orders I want them done.I want I talk a LAC's he doesn't stan at attention.

P.S LAC's are like an army CPl.


----------



## Sgt.Fitzpatrick

Exactly!!!!!  Not only are cadets civilians, but even CIC (although they are members of the CF) CAN'T be deployed.  They can also NOT transfer to a PRes unit or the Reg F.  They do not have to meet the same standard that all other members of the CF do.  Basically, they are just barely members of the CF.

You're wrong a cadet in my SQN  ask this question and they can be deployed it's just not likely of this happing.


----------



## Michael OLeary

http://www.cadets.forces.gc.ca/about-nous/intro_e.asp



> "Many people think of Cadets as preparation for a career in the military, but it is really about preparing for life; about developing the skills, the qualities and the confidence that will allow these young people to prosper and contribute to the Canada of tomorrow."
> â â€Art Eggleton, former Minister of National Defence





> *"Cadets are not part of the Canadian Forces, nor is there any expectation for them to join the military."*



Cadets are civilians. They are members of a federally-sponsored youth program that operates under the guidance and support of the the CF, but cadets are NOT part of the CF as individuals. Cadets CANNOT be "deployed" under any circumstances.


----------



## elscotto937

Sgt Fitzpatrick, what would a CIC officer do on an operational tour. People that go overseas generally have a skill to add. There are no cadets in an operational theater therefore there you be no need for a CIC officer. Not that it couldn't happen, for instance, take a former Reg soldier that is currently serving in the CIC has a special skill that is required for a mission then he may deploy because if his former service. The CIC does not incorperate soldier skills into thier basic training as they (the CIC) are for domestic use.  Even deploying reserves to operational tour on anything beyond a personnel augmentation is extremely problematic. 
 Now, I want to make a comment to those out there who have been talking about thier time as staff cadet... to most of you you must have had some poor guidence because a contract that you sign with conditions that you must comply with, does not...does not consitute being under the Service Code of Discipline. Please do not mistake dealing with the MPs as being under the NDA. The MPs have the authority to act as peace officers within thier jursidiction (usually the military base) They can investigate for offences contrary to the NDA and CCC. The MPIR would then be provided to the civilian authorities or the military in the case of a military member. Bottom line MPs are the town cops for a military base (if you are a civilian). 
Finally, DND civialian employees can be subject to the NDA in such cases as overseas deployments. However, they cannot be charged in our summary trial proceedues and must be referred to courts martial.  
Sorry, that was a rant.


----------



## sgt_mandal

Sgt.Fitzpatrick said:
			
		

> To anyone who say thay seen the same form idea means it's popure and the depine of cadets has gone down when I give orders I want them done.I want I talk a LAC's he doesn't stan at attention.



First off, HUH?



> P.S LAC's are like an army CPl.



Second, LAC's are equal to army Privates.


----------



## 63 Delta

There are no equivalent ranks between the Air, Sea or Army cadets. Theres not an equal rank structure like the Reg Force.


----------



## Spartan

521 said:
			
		

> There are no equivalent ranks between the Air, Sea or Army cadets. Theres not an equal rank structure like the Reg Force.


well after looking at the different programs and looking at general consensus- I've put together a pretty close estimate http://www.cadets.net/pra/6air/rank_e.htm


----------



## Sgt.Fitzpatrick

Ranks Between Air And Army 
                                  AIR                   Army

                                  RCT                  CDT  
                                   AC                   PTE
                                  LAC                  CPL
                                  CPL                 M/CPL
                                  SGT                  SGT
                                 F/SGT               WO
                                  WO2               MWO
                                  WO1               CWO


----------



## Franko

THANK YOU SCOTT!!!!!

On that note......





TARGET....TARGET STOP!


What a waste of bandwidth   :


----------



## Franko

What a waste of bandwidth again..... :

Are you "troops"  for real? If your corps isn't up to par for physical fitness or dress and deportment, it's YOUR job to get it sorted out and if need be, approach your CO and Trg O and get them to fire your sorry excuse as a leader.

It's what you as a cadet make your corps into. If you want to stuff your face with fat pills and get promoted to LAC then have at 'er.

The backbone of ANY cadet corps is it's Snr NCOs. If you find cadets too soft....fix it.

Something about Esprite de Corps comes to mind.

Regards


----------



## Sgt.Fitzpatrick

Scout aren't that bad I was scout I learn a lot of things from it that helped me in cadets but cadets are better.


----------



## sgt_mandal

Sgt.Fitzpatrick said:
			
		

> Ranks Between Air And Army
> AIR                             Army
> 
> RCT                           CDT
> AC                             PTE
> LAC                           CPL
> CPL                          M/CPL
> SGT                           SGT
> F/SGT                       WO
> WO2                       MWO
> WO1                       CWO



Come one, think about this logically. Does an air cadet recruit get any badge? NO! an army private DOES therefore they are unequal! Why do you say that only air cadets have recruits? are you born an army cadet? does it magically get bestowed upon you? NO! you join as a recruit! cpl's are cpl's EITHER WAY!!!!! They may not be 100% transferable, but there are some basic things that are agreed upon throughout the 3 elements.


----------



## Spartan

like I put the link in my last post- that table was thought up after much heated debate and discussion on another forum I frequent. I then took a look at the different program and respective trg and came a to a pretty good equivlancy chart.


----------



## sgt_mandal

I agree with the chart that you posted but not the bollacks Sgt.Fitzpatrick posted.


----------



## Sgt.Fitzpatrick

"Mommy, the intructers insulted me, yelled at me and made me fell like shat" 

    If cadets are like this thay should be in cadets if they are to soft then they shouldn't be in cadets. :crybaby:


----------



## condor888000

You jackass, I've been in cadets for nearly 6 years! I've taught for the past two! Trust me, if you think someone shouldn't be in cadets if they can't take being yelled at, you're wrong. Many people join to increase their bloody selfesteem! Don't believe me? I was one of them! If you treat cadets the way you want to enrollment will go down dracsticly. In case you didn't know that will effect you since the number of cadets in the unit governs how many camps the unit gets. If you think cadets are too "soft" wait till you're 16 and join the reserves.  If your unit doesn't do enough talk to the officiers! Don't bother complaining about it over a forum on the net. 

Do ypu know the aims of cadets? 
1) Promote good citizenship. That cadets does.
2) Promote physical fitness. Chech again.
3) Promote intrest in the __________ arm of the canadian forces. We do that too! 
Wow, cadets must be really soft if it meets all the aims in an environment that doesn't mentally destroy 12 year olds!  :


----------



## condor888000

Take a look at his profile, he's 14 with 2 years experience. Small unit I guess.


----------



## sgt_mandal

I guess it's cadets like our friend Sgt.Fitzpatrick who make us look bad. Now iI have my answer to my other thread. (the one entitled "legitimate continuation............")


----------



## Infanteer

This thread is going nowhere.  Back to your rooms children....


----------



## david124124

One thing i hate about the anti child war laws is that it restricts corps. from playing Capture the flag and from teaching army cadets about military camo,how to conceal your self etc.


----------



## sgt_mandal

OMG! lock this before i go crazy(ier)........... please ;D


----------



## Burrows

Ask and you shall recieve


----------



## wannabe SF member

Here's the link to the article, it's in french but i'll try to make a rough translation ASAP:

http://www.quebeclibre.net/spip.php?article403


----------



## Jorkapp

Rough google translation available here:

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.quebeclibre.net%2Fspip.php%3Farticle403&langpair=fr|en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

This guy is clearly blowing things out of proportion, but he does cover his ass. This seems like more of a rant than anything of substance. As well, it's from a "Quebec Libre" site, so grains of salt should be taken accordingly.


----------



## RTaylor

Soldiers are trained to be prepared for active combat. I don't think that the marching, sailing, fieldcraft skills and playing with airguns is creating a child army.

Some people rant about anything. Give them a podium to do it on and eventually someone will think they are right.


----------



## midget-boyd91

The incongruous said:
			
		

> Here's the link to the article, it's in french but i'll try to make a rough translation ASAP:
> 
> http://www.quebeclibre.net/spip.php?article403



Oh yeah, cadets are sure child soldiers.... even though as I was leaving, the unit was told we weren't allowed to keep our Air Rifles, or Drill Rifles, or practice drill rifles which were white boards of wood shaped like enfields in the building.

Midget


----------



## catalyst

Its an editorial/opinion piece - thus not based on fact, but rather "opinion"...and its from Le Devoir. 

It made me laugh - and then roll my eyes. 

Personally, I'm not too concerned. Its Quebec (not a slag to quebecers, just stating that well, my adopted province is quite 'unique') . The dude is just out to get an audience. Best do as the Cmdt URSC East did - not respond.


----------



## villecour

Pas très brillant---not too brilliant. The cadet movement has been around for more than 80 years and has contributed to form the women and men we are today and I hope they will exist for a long time.


----------



## Thugmuncher

We all have to be aware of those in our country who will say, do, or try anything to undermine the peace and order and good government we have today!

I was proud to be a cadet in my youth, and I can credit it with many excellent learning activities that prepared me for my adult life.  I am proud of the young people in our country who choose to spend their time in Cadets, they need to be encouraged and supported, not vilified and condemned.

Good on all Cadets across our country, I am proud of the choice you made to improve yourselves!


----------



## daftandbarmy

Nut job. We only recruit a relatively small fraction of ex-cadets into the CF, so his case is groundless.


----------



## IntlBr

Villecour, try over 125 years!


----------



## midget-boyd91

It must be the uniforms. Must be. I guess it was exactly 4 years ago today (technically yesterday, as it has passed midnight) that a couple hundred people in Halifax thought cadets were being 'sucked into' the CF. It was the anniversary of Shock and Awe, and we were standing in uniform on the sidewalk waiting for the bus to take us back home, when the protest marched by. Lots of long haired garbage can drummers yelling _"Save yourselves, little dudes"_ to us as they tripped by. 
Must be those uniforms.

Midget


----------



## Lumber

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Nut job. We only recruit a relatively small fraction of ex-cadets into the CF, so his case is groundless.



Anyone have a figure on this? I heard 5% from an ex-Cadet, but he didn't have anything credible to back him up so I don't know if that's approximate or way out to lunch.


----------



## benny88

Lumber said:
			
		

> Anyone have a figure on this? I heard 5% from an ex-Cadet, but he didn't have anything credible to back him up so I don't know if that's approximate or way out to lunch.



   I would say something higher than 5% if you're counting reserves as well. But that's just a guess.


----------



## Dolphado

Working with the Navy League in my home town for a couple years now (Daddy's a CIC, Mom's on the branch, two younger sisters in Army Cadets, me volenteering alot)  I can definantly say that is NOT the case.  Their most popular things to do at the moment are Drill, flags (can't remember the name but our corps is going to be doing it at provincials this year WOOT), Sailing and Band (Suix St. Marie has an awsome band BTW, they out did anything I ever saw in my highschool and they're all little kids) Oh and don;t forget the winter camping I mean wow can you say soldier conditioning or what? HA!  If anything I think its agreat program and I wish more kids would get involved.


----------



## wannabe SF member

Here's a translation:

This afternoon, politicians will be voting on the prolongation of Canada's mission in Afghanistan. Everything indicates that military budgets will Reach new highs. 

The continuation of this war will have other consequences, A great pressure for the recruitment of more soldiers. You are parents, there are children in your family, in your entourage... You work with them, Of course you want what's best for them...



Be Careful!:

The end of primary school is coming, know that there could be a recruiting agent in your surroundings. It could be the parents of a young neighbor or friend, a school coach or even school personnel. All of them could be instructor in a Cadet corp.

Of course, it is nothing comparable to the child soldiers that are used in conflicts. Still, across Canada, 50 000 youth are indoctrinated in Cadet corps.

The instructors of these cadets are soldiers, members of your local reserve unit. The youth wear a military uniform, are conditioned with drill to obey unquestionably to their officers and learn how to use weapons.


Order to recruit:

Since the escalation of the conflict in Afghanistan, there exists a massive Army public relation campaign dubbed: Operation Connection. To remedy to the rapid loss of Personnel, the army is aiming to recruit 10 000 men and women each year between 2007 and 2012. 

In this context, General Rick Hillier, The Canadian Forces Commander, has given the order to every member of the military to actively participate in the recruitment's of the Youth.

At this time we estimate that 30% of the members of the CF are related to soldiers.


To realize it's ambitious plan, the army must find a way to broaden it's recruiting horizon. The cadet movement is a crucial part of this charm operation. 


Every way works:

Of course, your children aren't forced to join. They are lured into joining by numerous ways: Weekend camps, learning of First aid, weekly entertainment, outdoor activities, summer camps with remuneration and the possibility of travel. 

These perspectives are are particularly attractive to poorer families. How could they refuse their 14 year old kid the opportunity of regular activities and free trips?

How can they say no to paid in Camps In Banff or Germany? How can could they possibly stoop him from starting a well paid career without even finishing secondary school, once cadet formation is over?

Once again, poorer classes are used for the richer one's war. 


Insidious recruitment:

As parents, you should know That The DND does not finance these activities in a benevolent gesture. To recruit, the army uses the The youth's sense of duty and desire to help others.  

Believing to be learning to maintain peace and Assist countries in need, the youth are mentally prepared for war by their instructors. The Peacekeeping era is however finished.

The army is now recruiting for the war on terror. After 5 years in the cadets, The teenage has mastered every peripheral abilities to the trade of a soldier. All he needs are a few combat notions to veritably be a soldier. 

The Cadets refuse to publish the percentage of their ancients who enlist in the army. Is it because they do not want us to know it is an effective recruitment tool.

Kill or be killed:

As said By PM Harper, the ultimate mission of a Canadian soldier is to kill or be killed. Already 79 soldiers have died in this mission. Does a civilized society has the right to condition it's children for such a perspective. 

Even more soldiers come back disabled physically and mentally, they will live at the charge of the ministry of ancient combatants, is it an acceptable possibility for your child?

The position of the USA at the doors Russia, China and India, three countries with the strongest potential for growth in the coming decades. Is it worth the sacrifice of our children's lives?

Military Helicopters, some of the most vulnerable combat vehicles, will be of no help. Instead of playing the minesweeper game, our youth will be the clay pigeon targets for the little portable Ground-air portable missiles used against the soviets (stingers perhaps?)

Against the flow:

We are in a time where a significant number of organisms fight against the recruitment of child soldiers to make war.

But organisms try to ban recruitment of minors, we let our high schools house cadet units.

We allow the Canadian army to sollicit our youth as soon as they exit primary of school. Will we accept that our institutions become sites for ?


Students start acting:

Luckily, since last September, students at the collegial and universitary level have understood ans started to act. They have managed to end recruitment in Cegeps.

They have documented and diffused an impressive quantity of information and made them available to to student associations and teacher syndicates. Operation Objection has managed to considerably reduce military recruitment in our  facilities. But it is only a start.

The CF have millions of dollars to recruit and are still targeting your children. It is now to the parent's turn to act.



I might have made the use of the word Youth a tad too much, but this darn language has no alternatives for "jeunes" ;D


----------



## daftandbarmy

I say again: Nut Job, over.


----------



## medaid

Man says cadets are child soldiers

MedTech says man who says cadets are child soldiers is a fucking dinkwad

Only one of the above statement is true... you decide...


----------



## benny88

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I say again: Nut Job, over.



  Roger that D&B. Be advised, fast-movers inbound his position at this time, over.


----------



## Celticgirl

uncle-midget-boyd said:
			
		

> Lots of long haired garbage can drummers yelling _"Save yourselves, little dudes"_ to us as they tripped by.



OK, Boyd, I came thisclose to spitting coffee all over my laptop while reading that!  ;D


----------



## OldSolduer

Let's be careful about this "nut job". It only takes one "nut job" to persuade other "nut jobs" to his point of view. Then it's a movement...
How do you fight rumors, innuendo and garbage like this?

With the truth.


----------



## CorporalMajor

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> Let's be careful about this "nut job". It only takes one "nut job" to persuade other "nut jobs" to his point of view. Then it's a movement...
> How do you fight rumors, innuendo and garbage like this?
> 
> With the truth.


Agreed. 

Many arguments from Laytonites sound very real and convincing......when the thuth is missing

Cadets child soliders?  Ha!


----------



## exgunnertdo

The "DND in the News" feed on the national DIN site had a rebuttal to that piece (yesterday, I think), written by a 20-something former cadet.  It was in French too, so I only got the big picture but I think it was pretty good.  I'm at home right now, so I don't even know where to begin to look for it.  Maybe someone else can find it.


----------



## Jarnhamar

I remember volunteering with a local cadet core 9 years ago.  Just to be an adult supervisor of sorts. Everyone was bored on a saturday night at conaught so to kill time I took them outside and taught them the basics of fre and movement & sections attacks with snowballs. Then using radios we practiced moving around as a platoon with 3 sections, trying different formations and doing frontals, right and left flanking "snowball attacks". The cadets had a great time and loved it. They were exausted, we went to rent movies and everyone had a good night- no harm done right?  
I didn't know any better
The cadet CO got a blast of shit however, apparently one of the old crusty retired army types saw our snowball fight and hit the roof. Wanted me charged, kicked from the army, wanted him demoted in rank bla bla bla
Oops.
I don't feel that bad though. When I was in Afghanistan I saw one of the old cadets who is now a medic saving lives, Canadian and Afghani.

There are a few organizations in Canada that DO train kids to fight in war, cadets aren't one of them.

This guy just wants his 15 minutes


----------



## midget-boyd91

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> OK, Boyd, I came thisclose to spitting coffee all over my laptop while reading that!  ;D



 ;D You're welcome.

Midget


----------



## wannabe SF member

> After 5 years in the cadets, The teenage has mastered every peripheral abilities to the trade of a soldier. All he needs are a few combat notions to veritably be a soldier.



I love the way he brushes  aside said combat notions as a mere little bump in the way.  : 

Question to senior members: roughly, how much time does it take for a recruit to be considered combat capable ?


----------



## Mike Baker

: This guy needs to get some brain cells to rub together.


Baker


----------



## exgunnertdo

I found the rebuttal:

Le Devoir, 19 mars 2008, Guillaume Bailly, Saguenay
http://www.ledevoir.com/2008/03/19/181178.html


> Réaction à Normand Beaudet pour sa lettre d'opinion intitulée «Les enfants-soldats de l'armée canadienne»
> 
> J'ai 24 ans et je vis à Saguenay. Ancien cadet, j'ai occupé tous les postes dans les escadrons 14 Shawinigan et 657 Saguenay, de recrue jusqu'à cadet-commandant, et ce, entre l'âge de 12 et de 19 ans. Votre article sans fondements ni nuances est tout aussi faux que décevant. Tout d'abord, les instructeurs de ces jeunes sont des officiers CIC et non des membres de la réserve locale. Ces CIC sont formés spécialement pour instruire des jeunes de 12 à 19 ans dans le cadre d'un programme de cadet. Il n'y a aucun militaire, ni de la réserve ni de l'armée régulière, qui a le pouvoir de donner un ordre à un cadet de quelque rang que ce soit dans le cadre des activités régulières.
> 
> Deuxièmement, les jeunes ne sont pas conditionnés à obéir au doigt et à l'oeil aux officiers puisque leurs supérieurs immédiats sont en réalité des jeunes d'un an ou deux leurs aînés. Le mouvement des cadets n'enseigne pas aux jeunes à obéir aveuglément mais bien à réfléchir car, dès l'âge de 14 ans, le jeune peut obtenir le grade de caporal (sous-officier subalterne) et a donc déjà quelques responsabilités.
> 
> Avant d'arriver à cela, on table sur le travail d'équipe et sur la motivation. Les objectifs du mouvement sont de former de meilleurs citoyens et de favoriser la bonne forme physique. Il y a quelques années s'ajoutait l'objectif suivant: «Développer l'intérêt envers l'élément [air, terre ou mer] des FAC [Forces armées canadiennes].» Cet objectif a été retiré du mouvement depuis le début de la campagne en Afghanistan. Les jeunes des cadets de l'air apprendront tout le nécessaire pour devenir pilote d'un appareil civil en plus de leur bagage militaire de base comme le respect, la discipline, la persévérance et l'endurance. Les jeunes de la marine apprendront à naviguer. Finalement, ceux de l'armée de terre verront le maniement des armes dans un contexte de champ de tir et non de combat.
> 
> Troisièmement, l'ordre de recruter, donné par le général Rick Hillier, cible les jeunes de 17 à 25 ans qui peuvent être enrôlés immédiatement et n'a rien à voir avec les jeunes de 12 ans du mouvement des cadets. Les stratagèmes de recrutement dont vous parlez n'ont en fait rien à voir avec le recrutement. Ils sont le coeur même du programme d'entraînement des cadets: les camps de survie en forêt la fin de semaine, les activités régulières (hebdomadaires) de formation musicale, de précision, de pilotage ou de tir, en plus de l'entraînement régulier, et enfin les formations avancées lors de camps d'été, notamment en exercices physiques, en survie, en leadership, en pilotage, en navigation et en tir.
> 
> On ne parle pas de ces choses pour recruter, on en parle parce que le mouvement, c'est exactement cela. Le résultat de votre recrutement par le truchement des cadets? Je peux vous fournir la statistique: sur 50 cadets recrutés chaque année dans un corps, seulement cinq termineront leur niveau 5 (fin de la formation en tant que cadet), et sur ces cinq, en moyenne deux rejoindront une unité de réserve ou une unité de l'armée régulière. Parmi eux, un seul décidera de faire son cours d'officier et devra compléter un baccalauréat dans un domaine pour pouvoir être reçu comme officier. Il poursuivra donc ses études.
> 
> Quatrièmement, vous confondez visiblement le recrutement au secondaire pour les cadets et le recrutement militaire aux niveaux postsecondaires. Les policiers, les pompiers et les athlètes vont tous faire des démonstrations dans les écoles à différents niveaux scolaires pour expliquer leur métier, qui comporte certains risques.
> 
> Vous évoquez les décès. Quatre-vingts morts sur combien de militaires engagés au pays? Connaissez-vous les statistiques des décès chez les policiers, les pompiers ou, tout simplement, les conducteurs d'un véhicule? La carrière militaire est un métier à part entière qu'on a le droit d'expliquer et de présenter.
> 
> Les missions de combat en sont une partie, mais en moyenne, un militaire effectue deux services de six mois en mission au cours d'une carrière de 20 ans. La moyenne n'est pas élevée par rapport aux policiers qui risquent leur vie chaque jour dans les rues. Le mouvement des cadets se dissocie de cela car, parmi les jeunes qui en font partie, le taux de décrochage scolaire, de consommation de drogue ou d'actes criminels est nettement inférieur à celui du reste de la population. Ces jeunes, qui ont reçu des connaissances et des compétences dans la vie, s'accrochent à leur réussite au lieu de courir à leur perte.
> 
> En conclusion, si vous ne connaissez rien à un mouvement, vous devriez vous abstenir de lui jeter le discrédit, car vous pouvez être certain que la pierre vous sera correctement retournée.



Maybe someone else can provide a translation - I can read it, but it would take me forever to translate.  He basically says:

1 - Instructors are CIC, not reserve or Reg
2 - The cadets are not being trained to follow blindly
3 - The order given by Gen Hillier to recruit had nothing to do with Cadets
4 - The author is confusing the recruiting of cadets at schools with the recruiting activities done by CFRC for careers following school.

And basically gives him s*** for talking about something he obviously knows nothing about.

Link to original Le Devoir piece - http://www.ledevoir.com/2008/03/13/180166.html


----------



## Foxhound

Children.

With flags.

In our cities.



Okay, I'm scared.


----------



## Mike Baker

Foxhound said:
			
		

> Children.
> 
> With flags.
> 
> In our cities.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, I'm scared.


:rofl:


----------



## aesop081

Foxhound said:
			
		

> Children.
> 
> With flags.
> 
> In our cities.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, I'm scared.



I would even go as far as saying :

_Children

With life skills

In Our cities

In Canada_


----------



## Foxhound

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I would even go as far as saying :
> 
> _Children
> 
> With life skills
> 
> In Our cities
> 
> In Canada_



Even better!


----------



## aesop081

Next target will be boy scouts.......

Teaching kids how to start a fire = creating a generation of arsonists

Teaching kids to tie knots = encouraging bondage fantasies

Think about it


----------



## Trinity

I knew I was a vigilante child... I just never could prove it.


----------



## mhawk

Quote  "At this time we estimate that 30% of the members of the CF are related to soldiers."
 Either this is a really bad translation or somehow 70% of the members in the CF aren't Soldiers.

Hmm, that's odd...


----------



## AirCanuck

accidentally reposted the article.  

Needless to say, that article is an inflammatory piece or garbage.  I've never seen such a set of ridiculous exaggerations before.


----------



## bebelleux

mhawk said:
			
		

> Quote  "At this time we estimate that 30% of the members of the CF are related to soldiers."
> Either this is a really bad translation or somehow 70% of the members in the CF aren't Soldiers.
> 
> bad translation...in the original text they are saying that at this time 30% of CF member are (blood)  related to an other member of the CF (brother, son...)


----------



## scas

I was a cadet from 93-98. In those years 4 cadets went to the reserves, 1 went to the regs. Of those 5 people 3 have left the military, I am unsure of the one who went to the regs, and I CT'd to the regs. This was out of a core of almost 100 kids annually. I was in during the time they changed from a Armed perspective (firing FN's) to a boy scout type of approach (Adventure training).


----------



## midgetcop

Pshhh. I don't know about you guys, but flying gliders and going camping sure turned *me* into a mindless drone.  :

This guy clearly doesn't know what he's talking about, and is trying to take cadets and pretzel it into his overtly biased opinion. Just more talking points for someone with an agenda.


----------



## AirCanuck

the_midge said:
			
		

> Pshhh. I don't know about you guys, but flying gliders and going camping sure turned *me* into a mindless drone.  :
> 
> This guy clearly doesn't know what he's talking about, and is trying to take cadets and pretzel it into his overtly biased opinion. Just more talking points for someone with an agenda.



agreed.  Cadets set me up with a glider license, an instructor rating, and a private pilot license, about... 20000 worth of training in all.  not to mention it opened up the doors for me to get into my aviation program at university - the fact that I ended up in the Air Force had nothing to do with cadets, it was something I always wanted to do.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Aircanuck PM inbound


----------



## rmc_wannabe

I volunteer with a cadet corps as an adult staff and I have to tell ya, mindless drones are not the words i'd use! I haven't heard the words "but why?" used in so many contexts in my entire life.  :


----------



## Jarnhamar

rmc_wannabe said:
			
		

> I volunteer with a cadet corps as an adult staff and I have to tell ya, mindless drones are not the words i'd use! I haven't heard the words "but why?" used in so many contexts in my entire life.  :



How does it feel to be more mature than a 12 year old?


----------



## rmc_wannabe

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> How does it feel to be more mature than a 12 year old?



I'm sorry i think my post was taken a little out of context. I'm not condemning these kids for lacking the maturity of adults. Nor am I faulting them for asking questions, especially why questions (hell I encourage them, you never understand what you're doing until you understand the why). I was mainly using my experiences to demonstrate how misinformed this writer is. Probably should have used a different smilie or none at all... :threat: :warstory:  8)


----------



## NL_engineer

rmc_wannabe said:
			
		

> I volunteer with a cadet corps as an adult staff and I have to tell ya, mindless drones are not the words i'd use! I haven't heard the words "but why?" used in so many contexts in my entire life.  :



From my experience working with that age group; tell them to ask a proper question, "but why is not acceptable", I found it worked, as most of them couldn't formulate a proper question  :  speaks wonders of our school system  :


----------



## catalyst

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Next target will be boy scouts.......
> 
> Teaching kids how to start a fire = creating a generation of arsonists
> 
> Teaching kids to tie knots = encouraging bondage fantasies
> 
> Think about it



Girl Guides - all female. 

Must be encouraging lesbian-ism.


----------



## GIJoes doll

I was in cadets for 2 years, My Parents were weathy but they knew I wanted to do it.(so its not for the "poor" lol)  They simply let me. Those 2 years stand out for me in my childhood years. I had never been gliding before. I loved it everytime I went. I learned alot of first aid, survival etc. when we went on weekend camps etc. It helped make me who I am today.  My sister, brother and 2 cousins joined too. We all had a blast. I still remember most of my instructors names! I will certainly never forget those years and I WILL let my kids join when its time if they ask to do so. It is kind of sweet though when your 11 year old son comes up to you and says "MOM how do you know that?" lol and you get to say ... MOM KNOW EVERYTHING lol.( knowing darn well you learned the skill in cadets lol)
SOO to all those who have a hand in Cadets...   Thank you!


----------



## The Bread Guy

Call me loony, but let's look at how UNICEF defines a "child soldier":



> "A 'child soldier' is defined as any child - boy or girl - under 18 years of age, *who is part of any kind of regular or irregular armed force or armed group* in any capacity, including, but not limited to: cooks, porters, messengers, and anyone accompanying such groups other than family members. It includes girls and boys recruited for sexual purposes and/or forced marriage. The definition, therefore, does not only refer to a child who is carrying, or has carried weapons"



I have no LLB, but I think there's a pretty strong case to be made that Cadets are NOT "regular or irregular *armed* force or *armed* group".  

During my Air Cadet service in the early-mid 1980's, we were spending too much time teaching drill, theory of flight, weather and leadership (to pick a few areas) to be too busy getting to the "armed group" PO's (although we did have a range team - I quake at the thought of facing people with bolt action 22's after all that time in lead-smelling indoor ranges).  Nice try, though  :

( If you have more legal beagle proclivities than I do, here's some more detailed material on child soldiers from UNICEF. )

_- edited for spelling -_


----------



## Jarnhamar

Only two countries didn't sign that child soldier rule about not deploying children under 18 to combat zones. South Africa and the USA, always thought that was interesting.


----------



## Fastjack

Here is the actual source of the article: http://www.lautjournal.info/default.aspx?page=3&NewsId=691


----------



## AirCanuck

> During my Air Cadet service in the early-mid 1980's, we were spending too much time teaching drill, theory of flight, weather and leadership (to pick a few areas) to be too busy getting to the "armed group" PO's (although we did have a range team - I quake at the thought of facing people with bolt action 22's after all that time in lead-smelling indoor ranges).  Nice try, though



best thing is this - I was in it about... 5 years ago?

since the eighties, it has become even more mickey-mouse.  My first year, we still used the bolt action lee-enfield 22's, after that we used an air rifle called the DAISY.  I mean, it's a nice target rifle, but it's a bloody pellet gun!
if you learn any kind of battlecraft when on a field exercise, they have to call it fieldcraft so it doesn't seem too military.  We weren't even allowed to go paintballing as an official event because it was too warlike.

I HARDLY think that these sorts of rules are made for the brainwashing and churning out of child soldiers.


----------



## Yrys

slight tangent

I wonder if that means that Canadian children would perform better then their American counterpart...



The Onion: US Schools Trail World In Child Soldier Aptitude


----------



## AirCanuck

hahaha

ranked far behind in mine clearing and accuracy with a machete.  

I DO seem to remember some training with those items during cadets...  ;D


----------



## LordOsborne

Back when I was in cadets, the "child soldier" argument popped up, apparently from some 'concerned citizens / parents' who saw us marching in the May Day parades, and saw the two Drill Purpose Lee Enfields we kept in the flag party. Ever since then, we were told we couldn't parade in public with rifles.


----------



## OldSolduer

Like I said before...it only takes one loon to start this ball rolling. A few more people with this same train of thought see this article and start it up in another province...watch out, they do have an ear in certain political parties.


----------



## Panzer Grenadier

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> watch out, they do have an ear in certain political parties.



Parties that will never attain government - just simply take my hard earned dollars.


----------



## OldSolduer

You are correct in that assessement PanzerGrenadier.....however there are enough of them, with friends in the media who will help propogate their view. 
The majority of Canadians may not be aware that we have a Cadet Corps, therefore would be shocked to learn that these children are taking drill classes etc....and with the journalists eager to sell a story....
The best way to fight this is with the truth.


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## Niteshade

scas said:
			
		

> I was a cadet from 93-98. In those years 4 cadets went to the reserves, 1 went to the regs. Of those 5 people 3 have left the military, I am unsure of the one who went to the regs, and I CT'd to the regs. This was out of a core of almost 100 kids annually. I was in during the time they changed from a Armed perspective (firing FN's) to a boy scout type of approach (Adventure training).



I was a member of an air cadet corp from 88-93, and of a strength of aproximately 60, (and that I know of)
3 are CF pilots (One driving hornets, One driving a C-130, and another in Moose Jaw. 2 More went to RMC and I don't know what fields they are in now, 1 more applied but was declined, and myself who is in "PEHP" (Pre Enrollment holding platoon) Heh heh.
More became cops, firefighters, did CIC duties and the like. all in all most people i knew in cadets came out quite well aducated, well adjusted people who knew their manners 

I wouldn't say it is a recruiting centre, but there was certainly the indirect influence to follow through with your cadet training to join the armed forces.

I should also note that the CF acknowledges Cadet training in enrollment pay benefits: IE: you are "given" 180 days" towards your first pay rateincentive (I am verbalizing this poorly), for 3 years of Cadet Service (within 5 year of your enrollment to the CF). This however does not mean the CF is pushing the Cadet's to join by no means.

Nites


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## midgetcop

Well, I agree it would be dishonest to say that it has absolutely NO influence on youths who are involved. Those who have been exposed to the organization might take more of an interest in the military, depending on how much they enjoyed their cadet experience. But the article seems to imply that these youths are being aggressively sought after by the CF...and that they are somehow being conditioned against their will. Of course this is obviously not true, as these youths are still mature and intelligent enough to make their own decisions in regards to their future profession. As a former member of the CIC, there was never any hidden agenda to encourage the kids to join the military. Then again, I suppose I'm preaching to the choir right now, as any of you who are former cadets already knows this. 

Edited for spelling mistakes.


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## LordOsborne

the_midge said:
			
		

> Well, I agree it would be dishonest to say that it has absolutely NO influence on youths who are involved. Those who have been exposed to the organization might take more of an interest in the military, depending on how much they enjoyed their cadet experience. But the article seems to imply that these youths are being aggressively sought after by the CF...and that they are somehow being conditioned against their will. Of course this is obviously not true, as these youths are still mature and intelligent enough to make their own decisions in regards to their future profession. As a former member of the CIC, *there was never any hidden agenda to encourage the kids to join the military. Then again, I suppose I'm preaching to the choir right now, as any of you who are former cadets already knows this.*
> 
> Edited for spelling mistakes.



That pretty much sums it up. I'll not deny that my time in cadets motivated me even further to join the forces, but then again i wanted to join the CF from a very young age anyway.


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## Greymatters

The incongruous said:
			
		

> The youth wear a (_military-style_) uniform, are conditioned with drill to obey unquestionably to their officers, and learn how to use weapons.



Based on that kind of description, you can include any youth active in the boy scouts/girl guides, martial arts, or a sports team where they hold a stick such as hockey/lacrosse/field hockey/ringette/badminton/baseball/etc...   :


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## anon12345678

Heh, My Cadets Squadron was the first in Canada to get a street/road named out of it. Basically, we help around our town alot.

239 RCACS REPRESENT!


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## daftandbarmy

EpicWindz said:
			
		

> Heh, My Cadets Squadron was the first in Canada to get a street/road named out of it. Basically, we help around our town alot.
> 
> 239 RCACS REPRESENT!



Just curious, were you still a cadet in 2008?  ;D


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