# Give Firefighters Credit



## Scott (18 Sep 2010)

Hi all, please have a peek at the following information on the link and send a letter/sign the petition for us.

Comments appreciated as well as a running tally of those who made it in via this site.

Thanks.

http://givefirefighterscredit.ca/en/


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## mariomike (18 Sep 2010)

Scott said:
			
		

> Comments appreciated as well as a running tally of those who made it in via this site.



I see the Fire Chiefs and Liberal Party support it.
( From the Fire Chiefs website ):
http://www.cafc.ca/news-programs/press_releases/docs/Firefighers-EN.pdf

Sun:
"Ignatieff pledges tax break for volunteer firefighters":
http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2010/05/03/13808096-qmi.html

No support from the union:
http://www.iaff.org/canada/index.htm

I think the union has a problem with the word "volunteer", as some volunteers are actually paid part-time employees.  See "salary" on page 2:
https://www.hamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/E348D1C9-2CF8-4379-8F47-EDC942643CC0/57733/09VolFFJD.pdf

I, we, know the union discourages their full-time "career" members from volunteering in other municipalities.:
http://www.citizen.on.ca/news/2008-01-31/front_page/004.html

With the loss of the experienced "two-hatters", recruitment, training and retention of volunteers has become an ongoing challenge in smaller fire services. Trained volunteers often leave to get hired by full-time departments. Of course when that happens, the volunteer service has to repeat their recruitment and training  process:
http://www.firefightingincanada.com/content/view/1331/132/

"No 'hope in hell' for federal volunteer fire fighter tax credit":
http://www.taxrates.cc/html/06i-fire-fighter-tax-credit.html

"because firefighters are now first responders, they're required to become level one firefighters":
Which means volunteers are now being called-in to go on medical calls and motor vehicle collisions, and therefore require more first-responder training. When ( medical ) call volumes "get a big enough boost", volunteer firefighters are being hired as paid municipal union members:
"Erin is a volunteer fire service. When call volumes get a big enough boost, it can force municipalities to hire volunteer firemen as full-time employees.":
http://news.guelphmercury.com/News/article/594374

The public is no longer surprised to see a fire engine show up when they call for an ambulance.
Meanwhile, Paramedic response times have been allowed to get worse every year. "When seconds count, we're 15 minutes away."

No "vollies" on this department:
http://www.torontofirefighters.org/OSS/
"It's a _career_, not a hobby!"  ;D

Nova Scotia:
http://www.gov.ns.ca/finance/en/home/taxation/personalincometax/volunteerfirefighterstaxcredit.aspx

"New Brunswick Liberals promise tax credit for volunteer firefighters":
http://www.canadaeast.com/news/article/1221570

Scott, I will be happy to sign the petition.  :nod:

These are some links I came across. Although I have never worked with volunteers, it showed me the stress they face:
"Alberta volunteer fire department stops service":
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/edmonton/story/2010/06/04/edmonton-wandering-river-volunteer-firefighters-suspended.html

"Charges laid in volunteer firefighter death":
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/windsor/story/2010/08/10/point-edward-fire-department-death-charges-100810.html

"Volunteer firefighters secure training funds":
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/new-brunswick/story/2010/04/11/nb-volunteer-firefighter-training-funds-429.html

"Volunteer shortage stressful for firefighters":
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/prince-edward-island/story/2010/05/12/pei-volunteer-firefighter-shortage-584.html

"Charlottetown Fire Department short on volunteers":
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/prince-edward-island/story/2008/09/25/pe-volunteer-firefighters.html?ref=rss


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## X Royal (20 Sep 2010)

Scott I believe the link you provided gives a false impression of the issue of the amount of volunteer firefighters in Canada. 
Here's a quote from your provided link.
"_Of the 3,492 Fire Departments in Canada, 91% of them are staffed by volunteer firefighters who make up more than 78% (or 84,314) of the 108,000 firefighters protecting communities nation-wide_"
Although many are called "volunteers" the reality in southern Ontario at least is that most if not all volunteer firefighters are not volunteers at all but actually on call part-time employees.
I guess it depends on your definition of a volunteer. Mine is someone who performs a service without receiving monetary compensation. 
By this definition there are very few if any volunteer firefighters in southern Ontario.
Also very few if any of these "volunteer fire departments" which pay their firefighters suffer the problem of  getting recruits.
I could only support this issue if it applied to true volunteers.
There are many of us throughout the country who actually volunteer our time without monetary compensation to serve our communities in different ways.
To call paid part-time employees volunteers and also give them a tax break doesn't sit right with me.

Just my opinion. Rick


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## mariomike (20 Sep 2010)

X Royal said:
			
		

> Although many are called "volunteers" the reality in southern Ontario at least is that most if not all volunteer firefighters are not volunteers at all but actually on call part-time employees.



Ontario Professional Firefighters Association ( OPFFA ) President Fred LeBlanc addresses that:

"Volunteer fire fighters or trade unionists?: Across the province these self proclaimed community do-gooders are organizing with trade unions in an effort to secure higher wages, benefits, and job security!"

See page 5:
http://www.cbupub.com/intrepid/vol12_no3/vol12_no3.pdf


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## Scott (20 Sep 2010)

Speaking only for how the tax credit is applied in Nova Scotia (because we have a provincial one): the person applying for the credit MUST NOT have drawn pay for it. One would hope that any legislation allowing for a federal tax benefit would be the same.

I don;t know anyone asking for extra when they are POC (paid on call)


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## X Royal (20 Sep 2010)

Scott the problem is the petition & information you linked us to mentions no such distinction in respect to no monetary compensation. 
It is a Canada wide site where many things differ from province to province. One brush can't cover all without clear boundaries & rules.
You can bet your arse that if a bill was passed as proposed in the petition every paid (volunteer  :) in Ontario would be applying asap.


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## Scott (20 Sep 2010)

Agreed. And it should not be that way. I'm just acting as a medium to pass on the info. And I don't begrudge anyone not in that situation a single penny. Not saying you do, either.


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## Pusser (20 Sep 2010)

:stirpot:  Why just firefighters?  Many vital parts of our society depend on volunteers.  Why not have tax credits for all volunteers?  Coaches, scout leaders, etc. all do very important work making our communities and society better.  Volunteer firefighters play a vital role in putting out fires, but what about the scout leader who provided a role model and something to do for the bored youth, thus  preventing him/her from starting it in the first place?


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## X Royal (20 Sep 2010)

Scott said:
			
		

> I'm just acting as a medium to pass on the info. And I don't begrudge anyone not in that situation a single penny. Not saying you do, either.


Maybe as a medium you could pass the info back in the other direction also.
One of the many functions of a Fire Chief is to control the budget. The Canadian Association of Fire Chief's represent their interests. They are not only concerned with the individual firefighters welfare but I suspect it is more likely it's a case of making their job easier in respect to controlling their budgets.
As for begrudging anyone fair compensation I certainly have no problem with firefighters getting compensation for services rendered be it pay or tax credits but not both.


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## aesop081 (20 Sep 2010)

X Royal said:
			
		

> As for begrudging anyone fair compensation I certainly have no problem with firefighters getting compensation for services rendered be it pay or tax credits but not both.



Soldiers get pay, extra pay when serving overseas and in certain cases, their income is tax-free when deployed. I consider that to be pay and tax credit at the same time.


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## brihard (20 Sep 2010)

I'll happily sign, without qualification. I'll let cooler and wiser heads figure out the specifics.

Speaking for myself, volunteer firefighters - part time casual, or unpaid - will set aside the course of their daily lives to put out fires and to save people from them. Pretty damned good of them in my books. Few other volunteer engagements carry that sort of inherent physical hazard.

A $3000 tax credit is far from being a huge deal, but it's a noticeable enough 'thank you' to a lot of people doing a hell of a good thing.


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## mariomike (20 Sep 2010)

Anyone who volunteers to serve and protect a community that could not otherwise afford fire protection is a hero. That is why I signed the petition. 
If they receive a T4 slip for anything more than a reasonable honourarium, they are no longer volunteers. They are part-time municipal employees. Nothing wrong with that. But, I do not believe they should receive the same tax break as the unpaid volunteers. 
I think most readers would agree that what they mean by the word "volunteer" needs some clarification in the petition.



			
				Scott said:
			
		

> Speaking only for how the tax credit is applied in Nova Scotia (because we have a provincial one): the person applying for the credit MUST NOT have drawn pay for it. One would hope that any legislation allowing for a federal tax benefit would be the same.
> 
> I don;t know anyone asking for extra when they are POC (paid on call)



As you say, Scott. 
The tax credit in Nova Scotia is very well deserved.


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## Scott (20 Sep 2010)

X Royal said:
			
		

> Maybe as a medium you could pass the info back in the other direction also.



Done after your first post. As said, I agree with what you said.


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## X Royal (21 Sep 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Soldiers get pay, extra pay when serving overseas and in certain cases, their income is tax-free when deployed. I consider that to be pay and tax credit at the same time.


I believe the difference in this example is when deployed overseas you are also not in Canada enjoying the things your tax dollars supply.


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## midget-boyd91 (21 Sep 2010)

Pusser said:
			
		

> :stirpot:  Why just firefighters?  Many vital parts of our society depend on volunteers.  Why not have tax credits for all volunteers?  Coaches, scout leaders, etc. all do very important work making our communities and society better.  Volunteer firefighters play a vital role in putting out fires, but what about the scout leader who provided a role model and something to do for the bored youth, thus  preventing him/her from starting it in the first place?



Big difference between volounteering for recreation and volounteering put yourself in harms way.


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## Pusser (21 Sep 2010)

uncle-midget-Oddball said:
			
		

> Big difference between volounteering for recreation and volounteering put yourself in harms way.



No disagreement there and I'm not saying  a hockey coach puts his life on the line like a volunteer firefighter.  However, if that coach's work prevents a kid from becoming a junior arsonist because he's playing hockey instead, is that contribution to society not just as important?  Don't just look at the deed itself in isolation.  Instead, look at its overall impact.


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## mariomike (21 Sep 2010)

The Canadian Association of Fire Chief's CAFC petition reads:
"We the undersigned call on the Government of Canada to introduce a $3,000 non-refundable tax credit for volunteer firefighters who perform more than 200 hours of service per year."

That reads different than Nova Scotia ( who receive a well deserved tax credit ):
"Volunteer Firefighters and Ground Search & Rescue Tax Credit: 
To receive the credit, you must meet the following requirements:
Have not received any payments (salary, wages, compensation or anything in lieu of salary) outside of reasonable reimbursements or allowances for expenses, in respect of firefighting or ground search and rescue services.":
http://www.gov.ns.ca/finance/en/home/taxation/personalincometax/volunteerfirefighterstaxcredit.aspx

I do not support full or part-time municipal unionised employees receiving a tax credit.

Manitoba is union:
16/09/2010 
"Volunteer firefighters go union: The firefighters are paid an hourly wage for every call they respond to."
"the municipality said it was worried that if the firefighters were unionized, it would give them the right to strike"
Interesting comments:
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/volunteer-firefighters-go-union-103031529.html

Ontario:
Job Call for Volunteer Firefighter:
"This is a unionized position, represented by the Christian Labour Association of Canada, Local 911.":
https://www.hamilton.ca/CityServices/Careers/Firefighters/Volunteer-Firefighter-Recruitment.htm

"Collective Agreement between THE CITY OF HAMILTON And GREATER HAMILTON VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTERS ASSOCIATION":
http://www.hamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/3EF302D1-5D1A-4BCD-B9C6-D2A54F965939/0/GHVFFA0811.pdf

The only thing "volunteer" with these guys is the word. They are are part-time employees with first crack at full-time positions within the fire department:
"Now then, in the event the Employer hires additional full-time firefighters within the bargaining unit of the Hamilton Professional Firefighters Association, the parties recognize that volunteer firefighters covered by the Collective Agreement will be viewed as internal city candidates."
Pay rates on page 24:
http://www.hamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/3EF302D1-5D1A-4BCD-B9C6-D2A54F965939/0/GHVFFA0811.pdf

Trenton, Ontario:
"Volunteer firefighters in Quinte West are getting a 2.5 per cent wage hike.
The Christian Labour Association of Canada, the union representing about 129 volunteers in Quinte West, negotiated a deal with the city in December.":
http://www.trentonian.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?archive=true&e=1401774

"Volunteer firefighters to decide on unionization":
http://www.northernlife.ca/News/LocalNews/2006/12-05-06-volunteer_firefighters.aspx


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## pbi (30 Sep 2010)

Having served briefly as a VFF in the US when I was stationed there, I find this issue interesting, and a bit close to home.

I served in a volunteer Fire Dept (Dumfries-Triangle VFD, in northern Virginia, about 30 mins south of Washington, DC). Our Dept was part of the Prince William County fire service, which included about a dozen other volunteer fire departments. We served a mixed suburban-rural area with a large and growing population, and our coverage area included US I-95 (the busiest interstate in the US), Potomac Mills Outlet Mall (at the time the biggest in the US) and an assortment of commercial, residential and indistrual areas. We were also mutual aid with USMC Base Quantico.

The interesting thing is that with this very busy coverage area, we were truly volunteers: unpaid. In fact, we were not municipal employees at all, but members of an association that provided a service to the community. (To be fair, the County manned one paid full time crew in each station on weekdays 0600-1800 , to ensure a response when many volunteers were away at work in DC and area, but more on that later...). As the nature of the population changed from rural, small town people with a strong sense of community to city-oriented suburbanites who were commuting to DC, recruiting was becoming increasingly difficult (maybe that's how I got in...). Out of a nominal strength of over 100 volunteers, there were some nights we could barely man two stations, and some we had to consolidate at one station. The members of the DTVFD were extremely proud of their pure volunteer status, and referred to the full time County employees as "paid men" (said in the same tone of voice as "kept women").

Would it be possible to establish volunteer fire companies like this in Canada? My guess is that Canadians wouldn't accept the risk.

The negative comments by IAFF and other full time firefighters in Canada (pointed out by MarioMike) remind me of the poisonous relationship between us as volunteers and the "paid men" that Prince William County put in our stations to cover the day shift. Imagine your worst possible RegForce-Reserve relationship and multiply it. Even though the VFDs owned the stations and the apparatus, the paid men regarded them as "amateurs" and I even saw the word "scab" used once. The childish anatagonism event went so far as the County men going off shift leaving trucks dirty and breathing bottles unchanged, and insisting on their own separate bunk room. Unfortunately  (IMHO)this is the kind of poison that some people in the labour movement seem too fond of spreading around to suit their purposes. VFFs are not "hobbyists" or "amateurs": a burning house is a burning house, and an auto extrication is every bit as dangerous in the countryside as it is in downtown T.O.

Whether volunteers are paid or not isn't the point: the point is that VFFs take on an additional responsibility, over and above their normal daily lives, to protect not just their communities but everybody who passes through them.

Cheers


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## ModlrMike (30 Sep 2010)

Pusser said:
			
		

> No disagreement there and I'm not saying  a hockey coach puts his life on the line like a volunteer firefighter.  However, if that coach's work prevents a kid from becoming a junior arsonist because he's playing hockey instead, is that contribution to society not just as important?  Don't just look at the deed itself in isolation.  Instead, look at its overall impact.



Which logically leads to the thought that perhaps there should be a tax credit for volunteerism. Regardless of the arena in which one volunteers.


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## mariomike (30 Sep 2010)

Hello PBI: 
There are many "combined" Fire and EMS stations in Toronto. They look good from the outside. But, the paramedics and firemen are segregated on the inside by cinderblock walls. Separate toilets, etc. Everyone is physically segregated. Might as well be on separate planets. Not exactly like they show on "Third Watch".

The most recent big money thing is "Presumptive Legislation". It now applies to full-time, part-time and volunteer firefighters in Ontario. Retrocative to 1 Jan 1960.
http://www.hicksmorley.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=536
http://www.hicksmorley.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=419&catid=6

Things could be heading this way:
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/fdny_oak_eaters_mMorteWMu4qillTomzRfFJ

This may be coming next:
'NDP MPP Cheri DiNovo is calling for amendments to the Workplace Safety and Insurance Act to address the issue of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) for front-line paramedics, firefighters and police officers.":
http://ontariondp.com/node/2206

"Under DiNovo’s reforms, the Act would be amended to create presumed causation before the WSIB in cases relating to post traumatic stress disorder."

ie: Presumptive Legislation for stress. Retroactive to .......? 

"These reforms build on the initiative launched by NDP MPP Andrea Horwath in 2006 which sought to create presumed causation relating to cancer and heart disease common to firefighters."


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## pbi (30 Sep 2010)

Mariomike: i find it very interesting that the two Hicks Morley articles are about telling municipal authorities how they can *fight * these benefit claims by their volunteer firefighters. You would hope that communities would be interested in taking care of citizens who go "above and beyond" to protect their neighbours homes and businesses.

It seems to me that this type of legislation is a double edged sword where VFFs are concerned. On the one hand, the laws have the good intent of trying to equalize compensation for VFFs with career FFs. On the other hand, the potential cost may scare municipalities into an unfairly "hard nosed" approach to these cases.

To me it's a moral and ethical issue: if the butcher, the baker and the candle stick maker commit themselves to protecting their communities AND running hteir own businesses, etc, the very least the community can do is look after them honourably and decently if they are killed, hurt or sickened while acting as VFFs.

The many communities that rely on VFFs are caught. It's already hard to get good, reliable VFFs. But what is the choice? Other than big urban centres, most communities simply can't afford a FD made up of full time paid FFs: it's prohibitively expensive for municiplaities that have a limited tax base and are already financially strapped, and might not have the call volume to justify a fully paid FD.

So what is the answer here? Private firefighters, like you see in Denmark and some places in the US?

Cheers


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## old medic (1 Oct 2010)

pbi said:
			
		

> Would it be possible to establish volunteer fire companies like this in Canada? My guess is that Canadians wouldn't accept the risk.



I can't say about all of Canada,  but this was common in Ontario until the end of the 1940's.
Fire Brigades were usually formed by associations and contracted services to towns. 
Circa 1949 changes to the municipal act made fire prevention a municipal responsibility,
with many towns replacing their fire brigades with fire departments. 

There are some examples still in existance in the form of Fire Teams in unorganized 
areas.  Major equipment is provided by the Ontario Fire Marshal,  but the team members are 
incorporated as a non-profit.


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## pbi (1 Oct 2010)

Old Medic: I thought about the Fire Teams shortly after I made my post. Good call on your part. But, if I might guess, the folks who live in the kind of Norther Ontario areas where we have Fire Teams are already used to a bit more risk and to doing more for themselves. Their community motivation is pretty high. (and "mutual aid" is a long, long way away...)

I guess what I'm thinking about is the average "Southerner" who lives and works in a town that is big enough to have a very high standard of living and has most services provided by the municipality, but not rich enough to afford a full time FD (in other words, the great majority of Ontario's 300 or so municipalities).

Would they serve as VFFs if they weren't paid by the call?

And, if they are paid by the call, does that mean they shouldn't be called "volunteers"?

Cheers


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## Bruce Monkhouse (1 Oct 2010)

pbi said:
			
		

> Would they serve as VFFs if they weren't paid by the call?



I didn't even know until the first Christmas function when I received a cheque that I was getting money for it. I would have to say that if the VFF's I worked with in Merrickville cared about the money the topic would probably have come up sooner.......



			
				pbi said:
			
		

> And, if they are paid by the call, does that mean they shouldn't be called "volunteers"?



Don't we call ours a voluntary military?     It's just a word..........


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## mariomike (1 Oct 2010)

pbi said:
			
		

> Mariomike: i find it very interesting that the two Hicks Morley articles are about telling municipal authorities how they can *fight * these benefit claims by their volunteer firefighters. You would hope that communities would be interested in taking care of citizens who go "above and beyond" to protect their neighbours homes and businesses.
> Cheers



The Association of Municipalities of Ontario (AMO) and The City of Toronto fought it:
http://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/hs/pubs/firefighters/tab3.php



			
				pbi said:
			
		

> So what is the answer here? Private firefighters, like you see in Denmark and some places in the US?



I served under for four Metro Chairmen, followed by two Mega-Mayors. Privatization was never a concern. I don't think even Ford or Smitherman would try that. Not to say they might not be tempted.
I know the guys still left on the job are hoping for Joe Pantelone, to avoid that concern. I was stationed in his Ward. A very likeable personality. 
I don't believe Emergency Services should be privatized. They never have been, in Toronto. Under municipal law,  they are not civilians. 



			
				pbi said:
			
		

> The negative comments by IAFF and other full time firefighters in Canada (pointed out by MarioMike) remind me of the poisonous relationship between us as volunteers and the "paid men" that Prince William County put in our stations to cover the day shift. Imagine your worst possible RegForce-Reserve relationship and multiply it.



Not just the "vollies". Other "paid men" ( and "paid women" ) as well. Such as Paramedics. ( Which the firemen probably out-number about four to one. ) 

This item is in today's news:
"But the survey has also re-ignited old animosities between paramedics and firefighters. The firefighters union accuses the medics of abusing the safety issue to boost their bargaining power in contract talks.":
http://www.globalwinnipeg.com/Winnipeg+firefighters+paramedics+worried+safety+work/3599643/story.html

Paramedic body armour is hardly a new issue that just came up. Besides that, why should the firemen be so determined that Paramedics not receive body armour? It is not even a monetary issue. What business is it of theirs?

"Other Canadian cities, including Toronto, Calgary and even the northern Manitoba city of Thompson provide paramedics with bulletproof vests — and Winnipeg should do the same, said Marc Savard, vice-president of the city's paramedic union.":
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2007/10/12/paramedic-vests.html#ixzz1188IfaD8

Cheers.

Edit to Add---------------sorry for the entire story copy/paste, the link is not relaiable-------------------

Barrie ( Ontario ) Examiner:

"Benefits ignite debate": 
NEW TECUMSETH -- Council is asking the province to cap the town's portion of benefits for work-related illnesses to past, present and future volunteer firefighters. 

Last November, the province established a new regulation which presumes that eight types of cancer -- as well as heart injuries within 24 hours of fighting a fire or a training exercise -- that are suffered by these firefighters would be work-related, unless proven otherwise. 

These same presumptions already applied to full-time firefighters in Ontario. 

But New Tecumseth Mayor Mike MacEachern says his council is concerned about the financial impact this regulation will have on small municipalities with volunteer and part-time firefighters -- especially since the claims can be retroactive to Jan. 1, 1960. 

"This creates a serious financial liability for small municipalities, especially as there are no capping provisions in place at this time," he said, noting the town's fire department has a small full-time, but large volunteer force. 

MacEachern says the town's position has nothing to do with the value of its firefighters. 

"I think most of us believe that volunteer firefighters are providing a community service and help keep the community safe," he said. "If they are hurt on the job, they should be compensated." 

But MacEachern said the retroactive aspect of the regulation makes it difficult for municipalities. 

"You couldn't plan for something you didn't know you had," he said. "Municipalities are getting frustrated because the province is approving laws without understanding the impact on municipalities and their ability to pay." 

Letters have been sent to Premier Dalton McGuinty, the minister of municipal affairs and housing, the Association of Municipalities of Ontario (AMO) and the Organization of Small Urban Municipalities, asking the province to establish a cap on the municipal portion payable on claims. 

AMO meets Aug. 15-18 in Windsor and the County of Essex, and MacEachern said he hopes to raise this issue during the annual conference. 

MacEachern said his council doesn't have a dollar figure or percentage that would be an acceptable cap. 

"We want to negotiate something, to understand what our liability could be," he said. "Right now it is so wide open." 

Claims would be made with the Workplace Safety and Insurance Act. An official with the Workplace Safety and Insurance Board said municipal responsibility for such claims is 100%. 

Ontario's Liberal government passed presumptive legislation in May, 2007 that allowed the government to make regulations related to compensation for firefighters who get sick due to work-related circumstances. 

The next month, the legislature unanimously passed a regulation giving full-time firefighters compensation -- if it was determined they contracted one or more of eight kinds of cancer, or suffered a heart injury within 24 hours of fighting a fire or participating in a training exercise. 

The regulation also applies to fire investigators from the Office of the Ontario Fire Marshal who meet certain conditions and to diseases diagnosed, or heart injuries sustained on or after Jan. 1, 1960. 

Ontario has about 11,000 full-time firefighters, 19,000 volunteer firefighters and 220 part-time firefighters. Forty-six fire investigators from the Office of the Ontario Fire Marshal are on active duty. 

-- With files by Courtney Whalen 

•Many volunteer firefighters during their careers respond to as many or more fires than full-time firefighters due to their availability to respond to all calls 24/7; 
•The province’s own legislation, the Fire Protection and Prevention Act, 1997, includes volunteers in its definition of a firefighter; 
•Thirty-four per cent of Ontario fire departments are composite, comprising a mixture of full-time and volunteer firefighters who fight the same major fires side by side;
•Many full time firefighters started their careers as volunteers – their years of exposure start from the beginning of their careers as firefighters and applying the same regulations will make it easier to recognize this situation.


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## X Royal (3 Oct 2010)

pbi said:
			
		

> And, if they are paid by the call, does that mean they shouldn't be called "volunteers"?


I my opinion no they should not be called volunteers. 
I find it an insult to those of us who truly volunteer our time to serve our communities.
Many of these so called "volunteers" play on the concept that they are performing a great service to the community as volunteers and never mention that they are paid for their services. Most of the public don't realize they are actually paid because they are called "volunteers".
Yes they do perform a great service to their community but as part-time on call employees *not* volunteers.

Just my opinion: Rick


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## mariomike (3 Oct 2010)

X Royal said:
			
		

> Yes they do perform a great service to their community but as part-time on call employees *not* volunteers.



I was looking at the "Collective Agreement January 1, 2008 - December 31,2011 Between the City of Hamilton and the GHVFA". 
It looks like "volunteers" ( as they are referred to in the C.A. ) earn between $16-$25 per hour, depending on rank. It looks like there is some bonus money in there as well, but I did not read all the Articles.
What I found interesting: "Hours of Employment: A volunteer firefighter will respond to an alarm when he is available to respond. Each firefighter shall determine at his discretion when he is available to respond to an alarm"
Potentially, it sounds like you could make yourself available 24/7/365 ( perhaps early retired, or certain types of local jobs ) there seems to be no limit on the number of paid hours you can accumulate. I wonder?


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## X Royal (3 Oct 2010)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Potentially, it sounds like you could make yourself available 24/7/365 ( perhaps early retired, or certain types of local jobs ) there seems to be no limit on the number of paid hours you can accumulate. I wonder?


Mariomike:
The amount of alarms would place some limit on the hours accumulated.
As for the method of payment to the (volunteer?) firefighters there is many different models. Some are paid hourly as you mentioned, some by the call (sometimes under or over 2 hours ect.) and some a percentage of the overall wage fund based on attendance, to name some of the methods I'm aware of. Most departments also make allowances for rank & training time to calculate pay.


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## pbi (17 Oct 2010)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I didn't even know until the first Christmas function when I received a cheque that I was getting money for it. I would have to say that if the VFF's I worked with in Merrickville cared about the money the topic would probably have come up sooner.......
> 
> Don't we call ours a voluntary military?     It's just a word..........



Bruce: I believe that you are probably typical of those VFFs who make up the small, hard core of most VFDs (here and in the US...): you do it for a whole bunch of good reasons other than money. (Nobody will ever get rich off being a VFF). Other than big municipalities, most towns, villages and townships in Ontario rely on people like you to step up.

While I think that it might be technically true that a VFF who gets paid by the call isn't being treated exactly the same as, say, a Red Cross or St John's Ambulance volunteer, I see no moral or ethical problem in compensating a citizen who goes "above and beyond" to help their community and their neighbours. My question wasn't intended to attack guys like you. What I was commenting on was the difference I see between the US (or, at least, the state of Virginia when I lived there...) and Ontario (and maybe most of Canada...). The VFFs that I served with in Virginia were aggressively proud of their unpaid status, and saw "paid men" as their opponents. (Which was returned in spades, by the way)

I guess XRoyal raises a good point, although I'm not sure I agree completely. If you pay somebody, do they cease to be a volunteer? As Bruce pointed out, we consider our military, especially our Reserve, to be "voluntary". The Army Reserve, in particular, has a spirit very similar to that of a VFD: citizens who have other jobs/professions but volunteer to serve in the military on a part time, or "on call" basis. Because we pay the Army Reserve, does this mean that they aren't a volunteer force? I bet you would get a huge pushback from folks in the Army Reserve on that one.

But, having said all that, here is the problem: communities need fire/rescue protection. In fact, IIRC in Ontario they are mandated by law to provide it or purchase it. If they can't afford a completely full time paid FD, they do the best they can, either composite or "volunteer" (however you want to interpret that word). How, in this modern day and age of "what's in it for me?", can you get Canadians to do this? Where I lived in VA, we were already having big trouble recruiting. My Engine Co was quartered in a station located in a fairly upscale suburban area, which had previously been mostly rural.  I once asked my station chief if there was anybody else from the neighbourhood who belonged to the Engine.(other than me...) He laughed and said: "Do you think these people want to be volunteer firefighters?".

If you don't offer some kind of compensation for getting out of bed at 2:00 AM on a snowy Saturday morning to cut some drunk out of his car, would you get anybody (other than the very dedicated and hobourable like Bruce?)

I don't know the answer, but sometimes I wish IAFF and the rest of them would stop treating VFFs like hell's spawn.

Cheers


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## mariomike (17 Oct 2010)

pbi said:
			
		

> I don't know the answer, but sometimes I wish IAFF and the rest of them would stop treating VFFs like hell's spawn.
> Cheers



Like this?
"Volunteer Firefighters Employment Protection Act":
"Ontario fire fighters waged a multi-level campaign to defeat the bill, including a media blitz and tough lobbying."
“We did everything in our power to secure enough votes to defeat this foul piece of legislation,”
“This was a good old-fashioned backroom campaign, backed by strong arguments and political savvy,” 
http://www.iaff.org/canada/archive/OntBill30.htm

"LEGISLATURE UNDERCUTS VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTERS": 
http://www.amo.on.ca/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home&TEMPLATE=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&CONTENTID=32197

"Volunteer fire fighters need tax break to help get recruits":
"Making the economic argument, Simonds pointed to a study that showed his proposed tax credit would cost the government $29 million -- less than the $3.8 billion the study says it would cost to replace all of Canada’s volunteers with full-time firefighters.":
http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2010/10/06/15607481.html


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## pbi (18 Oct 2010)

The IAFF seems to be concerned about "two-hatting" as a threat to its status. But, if full time paid FFs decide to help out in the communities they live in, shouldn't that be their personal choice? What business is that of the union? If a FF shows up at his career station tired out from a night call with the VFD in his home community, I agree that is a problem. However, it is not really different than if he were to have worked too late at any physically demanding activity such as a secoind job (which I believe a number of IAFF members may actually have...). He has made a decision, on his own, to do something that has a potentially bad effect on his "day job". Will the IAFF try to stop its members from engaging in ANY activity that might keep them up late, or tire them out? Or is it really just about creating more career positions (look at the last comment about growing communities that still use part-time or volunteers: IAFF obviously feels that they should go to paid full time departments. I saw this in VA, when one of the career men posted a notice on the bulletin board in our station calling volunteers "scabs".

Also, in the other article, I noted that Chief Simonds states: 





> ... that 80% of volunteer firefighters receive no compensation for their efforts, not even a stipend to cover costs. Instead, they are often out of pocket for expenses or lost wages..."



I guess I was wrong to assume that Canadians would not step up to be VFFs for "free". I stand corrected and I apologize to those Canadian VFFs I may have slighted.

In my opinion, the Career/VFF fight (so similar to the RegF/Res squabble) will never go away, because there is a fundamental clash of interests involved.

Cheers


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## mariomike (18 Oct 2010)

IAFF members take an oath when they hire on.:
"I agree to abide by the constitution and By-laws of both the International Association of Fire fighters":
http://www.fedfire.net/index.cfm

IAFF General President:
http://www.iaff.org/08News/PDF/IAFCLetter.pdf

"Working a secondary job part-time, paid on call, volunteer or otherwise as a firefighter, emergency medical services worker, public safety or law enforcement officer, or as a worker in a related service, whether in the public or private sector, where such job is within the work jurisdiction of any affiliate or which materially erodes the conditions of work of any affiliate. Upon a finding of guilt of working a secondary job in violation of this subsection, it is recommended that the penalty include disqualification from holding office in any affiliate and/or expulsion from membership for the period that the misconduct persists. Charges filed for the misconduct described in this subsection shall be preferred by a member of the charged party's local and/or a member of an adversely affected affiliate.":
http://www.affi-iaff.org/docs/IAFFConstandBylaws.pdf
"As Amended by the Forty-Eighth Convention held in Toronto, Ontario August 2006"
( page 48 )
http://www.thewatchdesk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43667

Arbitration in Innisfil, Ontario: "IN THE MATTER OF A GRIEVANCE CONCERNING
VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTERS":
http://www.oafc.on.ca/lib/db2file.asp?fileid=1648


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## pbi (20 Oct 2010)

The Innisfil business seems all too typical of this kind of approach. But, to be fair, I'd like to hear a reasonable defence from a career fire fighter as to how, in this case, the potential VFF was a threat to the union. Is this based on the fear that municipalities might have inadequate fire protection because of overworked FFs with two jobs, or is it about ensuring as many career fire fighter positions as possible?

I should declare my own bias here. While I understand that historically  the labour union movement evolved in response to miserably bad behaviour by employers, and while I accept that such employers may still be out there, I believe that some people in the labour movement have long ago lost sight of their real purpose and instead have made it into a power struggle.

Cheers


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## mariomike (21 Oct 2010)

pbi said:
			
		

> The Innisfil business seems all too typical of this kind of approach. But, to be fair, I'd like to hear a reasonable defence from a career fire fighter as to how, in this case, the potential VFF was a threat to the union.
> Cheers



Oct 20, 2010 
"Town seeks a few good men – and women: 
INNISFIL - They go quietly about their full-time jobs and family lives until the alarm goes off. Then, they hop into their vehicles, switch on the flashing green light and race towards the nearest fire hall.":
http://www.simcoe.com/news/local/article/890280--town-seeks-a-few-good-men-and-women

"He adds Innisfil’s full-time contingent of firefighters have been encouraged to “spread the word” about the recruitment drive."


"Innisfil Arbitration Decision on Two Hatters":
http://www.firehall.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16888

Quotes:
"I just looked at this what is the Toronto FF thinking?" 

"The guys reason for getting on Innisfill were really taking the community to heart. I almost wept reading about his dedication to the town the altrustic reason of weasling a FT job so he wouldnt have to commute....should of thought about that in the first place Einstein."

"I don't believe an IAFF member should be volunteering on a composite dept."

"I see what your saying but if an IAFF firefighter gets hurt volunteering whose sick time are they using, the city where they are full time. When the local goes to get a new contract and a bunch of the FF are volunteering for 15/hr and no benefits why would any city pay us $80 000/ yr to do the same job. This is adversely impacts an IAFF local."

"Now if you could only get your own members and Brampton and Toronto to stop "volunteering" in Hamilton."

"ok talking about that volly dept that has its own LTD. that is great! BUT, what if when the professional firefighter gets hurt while working for this volly dept? Now, this injury will take 20 weeks until he can hit the floor again. Awesome, he will recieve LTD from the volly dept, but he's going to miss work from his F/T dept. So, now he has to get shift trades, guys covering ALL his shifts, until he can return to full duty. If not, he is absent from showing up for his shift, and grounds for dismissal. And believe me, this full time dept admin. will be looking for a reason by this point to get rid of him after finding out through the grapevine what has happened. This is the real problem for the F/T professional FF, no?"

"Scabbing in a composite dept is just wrong IMHO......no offense to a certain pal of mine."

Town of Innisfil: Volunteer Firefighters
"Are you prepared to consider a unique opportunity to contribute to your community?":
http://www.town.innisfil.on.ca/volunteer-firefighters


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## pbi (14 Nov 2010)

> "ok talking about that volly dept that has its own LTD. that is great! BUT, what if when the professional firefighter gets hurt while working for this volly dept? Now, this injury will take 20 weeks until he can hit the floor again. Awesome, he will recieve LTD from the volly dept, but he's going to miss work from his F/T dept. So, now he has to get shift trades, guys covering ALL his shifts, until he can return to full duty. If not, he is absent from showing up for his shift, and grounds for dismissal. And believe me, this full time dept admin. will be looking for a reason by this point to get rid of him after finding out through the grapevine what has happened. This is the real problem for the F/T professional FF, no?"



Is this about getting hurt, or about Career FF's "scabbing"?

In my neighbourhood are two city career FFs who are also roofers when off duty. If one of them falls off the roof and can't work as an FF, the FD has the same problem of shift coverage, etc. So, does IAFF propose that career FFs not have ANY "civilian" job that might result in them getting injured off the job, or keep them up late? 

Or is it really that they would like to see the end of VFFs altogether, replaced by career FFs? (Note the reference to "composite" FDs, where this process has already begun...) How do they propose that financially-strapped smaller municipalities deal with conversion from a part-time volunteer force to a full time paid force with benefits? Where will the money come from? I think that they know very well that the real reason (and the motivation for the use of terms like "scab") is to ensure that career FFs don't help out in the communities they live in, thus creating more vacancies for IAFF members in the long run.

I lived through this in Virginia: it is exactly the same mentality and almost the same words being used.

Cheers


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## Scott (14 Nov 2010)

pbi said:
			
		

> Or is it really that they would like to see the end of VFFs altogether, replaced by career FFs?



 :nod:

Any-frigging-where they can get away with it. 

Hey, the full time guys have their place. But it ain't in every frigging hall out there.


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## pbi (14 Nov 2010)

Scott said:
			
		

> :nod:
> 
> Any-frigging-where they can get away with it.
> 
> Hey, the full time guys have their place. But it ain't in every frigging hall out there.



What gets me is how, in two very different parts of North America (Virginia and Southern Ontario), it seems that exactly the same attitude is shown on the part of career firefighters, with the same arguments and insults. I don't think I would want to serve as a VFF in any composite FD if this is the kind of poisonous attitude that career firefighters would display to citizens who take on the committment to protect their community, over and above their normal daily jobs and responsibilities. Whether that citizen's "day job" is as a plumber, bus-driver, or a career FF on another FD is to me irrelevant.

It is hard enough to get good VFFs-this sort of silliness can only make it more difficult. But then, maybe that's the objective.


Cheers.


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## Scott (14 Nov 2010)

Sadly you are right. Even sadder is that you'd be right if you made statements about career/VFF relations nationwide. But, IMO, it is not the everyman who is responsible, it's the machine, if you will.

I have seen a couple of examples of it working very well. I can think of one town right now that has paid drivers and volunteer officers and firefighters that sees a great amount of cooperation between the two. Hell, here is even cameraderie and fun. But it took them a long time to get there from the old model of bickering and blading.

Unfortunately, not even an hour's drive from there is another spot that sees a terrible relationship between the two parties.

I'm lucky. All volunteer. I sometimes get shit because I've been a career guy in the past but anyone who knows me knows I started as a vollie and understand very well what they go through to do their jobs. I also understand that while there may be such thing as a volunteer firefighter there is no such thing as a volunteer fire. It's really that simple when it boils down to it.

Having said this though, I have seen vollies go just as far over the line when talking down to paid guys about how being a vollie is somehow better. I don't get it so I usually do not participate and did not respond when I was the target.

It's simple to me: if you like doing it for money then go get a job doing it. If you like being a vollie and an electrician/lawyer/mechanic/CPA for money then do so. To each their own.


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## mariomike (14 Nov 2010)

Scott said:
			
		

> Hey, the full time guys have their place. But it ain't in every frigging hall out there.



They would have to build firehouses with dormitories able to accomodate firefighters on 24 hour tours. 

Last month the president of the Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs appeared before a Commons committee in Ottawa to report that it would cost $3.8 billion to replace all of Canada’s volunteers with full-time firefighters.:
http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2010/10/06/15607481.html


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## Scott (14 Nov 2010)

3.8 billion for what? A year? It would be FAR greater than that over time.

Many halls in the HRM now have day tour paid guys to cover small villages (bedroom communities) that can't muster enough pers during working hours. Vollies cover the rest of the time. Makes sense in some places but I scratch my head when I see them in a hall that does maybe 100 runs a year.

Then again, I am not privvy to all of the info.


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## mariomike (14 Nov 2010)

100 runs per year. I wonder what percentage would be working fires? 
I remember reading "Report from Engine Company 62" and they said some low number like that would have been "a busy weekend in the Bronx." Old time firemen!  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UAI2gzf0mw&feature=related
The old "back-step" guys! I remember them well.

Toronto Pumper 332 did 4,741 runs in 2009:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoXH3i-UzhU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifJ7AEr3xd0&NR=1

Edit to add:
"Station 332 is the busiest fire station in Canada, and logged 5,000 calls last year. It serves the CN Tower, Air Canada Centre and the Skydome, not to mention scores of downtown condos, the theatres, restaurants and bars.":
http://www.thestar.com/living/food/article/887142--bachelorette-parties-turn-up-the-heat-at-fire-hall-332


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## Scott (14 Nov 2010)

Indeed. 100 runs (give or take a few), of which the majority would be MFR at between 50 to 60% if they are anything like anyone else around. There is a large lumber mill nearby that's good for half a dozen calls a year but they're second due on that one. If I were a betting man I'd say it was careful application of an NFPA standard in the 1700's, plus a couple of missed calls in the daytime, that got that station manned. 

Bottom line: volunteer and paid firefighters are different beats. Anyone who tries to treat them the same will fail every time. They can work together with recognition made for both parties and their idiosyncrasies. You cannot replace the volunteer when it comes to certain parts of the job and there are areas where you absolutely need paid men and some volunteers could not make it as such. Try making a vollie understand what 4,000 plus calls a year is like. Who cares if shift differentials might see one person running 1/4 of those, that's still 1,000 plus runs a year and that is crazy. But also try getting some paid guys to understand water shuttling, urban interface and rural water supply...

Personally I don't give a damn if the guy beside me is getting a cheque or not, just as long as they can do the job. But, some people like to get riled up about that sort of thing.


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## mariomike (14 Nov 2010)

pbi said:
			
		

> What gets me is how, in two very different parts of North America (Virginia and Southern Ontario), it seems that exactly the same attitude is shown on the part of career firefighters, with the same arguments and insults. I don't think I would want to serve as a VFF in any composite FD if this is the kind of poisonous attitude that career firefighters would display to citizens who take on the committment to protect their community, over and above their normal daily jobs and responsibilities. Whether that citizen's "day job" is as a plumber, bus-driver, or a career FF on another FD is to me irrelevant.
> 
> It is hard enough to get good VFFs-this sort of silliness can only make it more difficult. But then, maybe that's the objective.
> 
> ...



Perhaps a return to residency requirements would help. That is the way it was when I joined. You had to be a long-term resident of the city or one of the five boroughs to get hired. That made more workers available in emergencies.
It  would keep taxpayers’ money in the city, and you would be more likely to understand and empathize with the citizens you swore to serve and protect.


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## mariomike (19 Apr 2011)

Apr 16, 2011 
Update
"No tax break for firefighters says Premier":
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prince-edward-island/story/2011/04/16/pei-firefighter-tax-break-584.html


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## Scott (20 Apr 2011)

No surprise there. It was tabled in the Federal budget to give us the break on that side, *poof* that disappears with the call of an election and now Ghiz doesn't have to explain why his firefighters get a Federal break but nothing from the Province - although I am curious to see if the Conservatives get in with an increased minority or majority, then table the budget exactly as it was, what Mr Ghiz will do then.

The amount I am allowed to claim is $500. Total. Can you really tell me that this sum is going to bankrupt PEI, even if you give it to the 35% or so that "earn" it (assuming they go with the same system Nova Scotia does), can you tell me that the sum would break the bank? 

This is sad.


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## Acer Syrup (20 Apr 2011)

I have to say I am not a huge fan of the time allotment. I agree there has to be some sort of comment, but four hours a week is a little rich for some departments. I have no issue with clocking in that time at my department, but some really small rural departments will have a hard time keeping up with that. Average training time each year is about 100 hrs (if you make all practices), so it is assumed that each person will get at least a 100 hours of call out time. Can't go to fires if there are none to go to... doesn't mean they aren't still itching  or willing to go to a fire.
 :2c:


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## mariomike (20 Apr 2011)

Acer Syrup said:
			
		

> Can't go to fires if there are none to go to... doesn't mean they aren't still itching  or willing to go to a fire.



I have read that Canada's fire loss record was one of the worst in the industrialized world, but declined sharply after 1980:
http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/obj/irc/doc/pubs/rr/rr172/rr172.pdf
In Toronto, fire incidence declined sharply from 1980 and stabilized around 1998.
What has impressed me since Mega-city amalgamation is the massive amount of manpower they can put on a scene, sometimes over 100 firefighters. I never witnessed turnouts like that with the old TFD or borough back-step guys in the 1970's. Didn't see many "tanked-up" back then. I am sure that shortened many careers ( heart-lung disease and cancers ), and lives. I don't think bunker gear was even mandated until around the mid-1990's. 

I do not know if this is true, but I have read that some communities in Japan require every able-bodied man to be a volunteer firefighter. That volunteerism is a social duty, rather than an extracurricular activity.
"There are one million volunteer fire fighters in Japan.  This number is ten times as many as that of career fire fighters in Japan." ( 1995 ):
http://www.g-web.com/JVFA/English.htm

"The Story of Firefighting in Canada" by Donal Baird 1986.


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