# Married soldier found guilty of beating his date with tire iron



## Blakey (12 Jun 2007)

Sweet F***ing Jesus, here we go again...
Fair dealings etc...
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2007/06/12/pf-4253944.html


> Soldier guilty in bad date
> 
> Beat woman with tire iron
> 
> ...


EDIT: Sorry, I think I posted this in the wrong thread, I was looking for the one where the individual claimed PTSD from Bosnia.
_Found it http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/45511.75.html_


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## GAP (12 Jun 2007)

Shitcan him....the CF need to quickly and loudly wash their hands of this jerk, they need to supply refuting data on his PTSD story ASAP. This jerks' actions and misuse of the condition is going to tar and feather all those suffering from PTSD....


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## geo (12 Jun 2007)

well, if he has PTSD and had that kind of behavioral problem, this fella is due for an admin review, a medical review, a permanent subnormal med category and ship him on his way with a 3(b).  Refer him to DVA and wave him bye, bye as they haul em away


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## the 48th regulator (12 Jun 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> well, if he has PTSD and had that kind of behavioral problem, this fella is due for an admin review, a medical review, a permanent subnormal med category and ship him on his way with a 3(b).  Refer him to DVA and wave him bye, bye as they haul em away



Wow,

And that is a good message to send to the troops that are trying to solve their challenges with PTSD, and try to continue to serve.

One mope effs up, claims PTSD, so we should just 3B him and everyone else and dump them onto the DVA.

I shake my head, as this is the type of BS from the guilty character to the posts here, that threaten the health of those who suffer and fear of being released.

dileas

tess


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## George Wallace (12 Jun 2007)

> Drake had been initially charged with aggravated assault and assault with a weapon in relation to the Sept. 15 incident  in north Edmonton.
> 
> Court heard Drake, a military equipment driver with 1 Service Battalion, had met the victim on Quest dating line and then went to see her at her apartment near 174 Avenue and 95 Street about noon.
> 
> ...



I find this rather odd.

At noon in the middle of September?  Tire iron?  Who keeps a Tire iron in their bathroom?  Surely, if he brought it in with him at noon on a warm September day, it would have been noticed, so it had to be in the bathroom.  This whole story is out to lunch.  (Sorry for the pun.)


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## GUNS (12 Jun 2007)

PTSD will be a crutch for those who served overseas to defend their actions.

Most will be true cases but some will avail of this to lessen the punishment for unlawful deeds.


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## Disenchantedsailor (12 Jun 2007)

There are some suffering from PTSD here at home, and continue to serve, of course none of them tooled an internet date with a tire iron. He needs help agreed, but we've allready allowed him to keep his job throughout the trial period, while he waits for yet another trial for a b&e, if he were simply selling pot in the shacks we'd have allready punted him. I makes it more difficult because he claims to have PTSD from Bosnia, pulls the heart strings of course but doesn't give those rightfully diagnosed trying to recover and cope to retain any credibility. Especially if what GUNS said comes to fruition, we could be looking at lots of guys coming back and beating thier girlfriends and wives/hubbies and the like and using PTSD to lighten the sentence


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## Blakey (12 Jun 2007)

How should these persons be dealt with, the ones that are/have seemingly taken and used the "PTSD Card" as a means of escaping recourse punishment for their actions?...more importantly, how are we to know that these claims (PTSD) are actually false?

Changed recourse to punishment.


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## Disenchantedsailor (12 Jun 2007)

if it can be proven to be an unsubstantiated claim, and yes the experts are getting pretty good at sifting out the BS, then he can/should be charged with making a fraudulent statement do some time in club ed and then dismissal with disgrace unsuitable for further military service due to circumstances under his control. that is of course if it can be proven to be a fraudulent claim, if even a shred of doubt exists than its back to the head mechanics to find a solution to the mans problem.


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## Armymedic (12 Jun 2007)

Too many people think it as an excuse to defend thier inappropriate actions. In our current enviroment of information and acceptance, if they were not clinically diagnosed before causing a crime, then they are just using it as an excuse. And even if they are, all and any of us who have served overseas more then once can make up a good story. The hard part is for the clinitians to determine if it is actually PTSD or some other behavorial problem. Because it is so easy to make up a plausable story, then most practioners will hear hoofprints and think horse, and not look for donkeys or zebras.

Regardless of "alleged" PTSD or not, the fucking guy is a violent criminal.

Punt.


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## geo (12 Jun 2007)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Wow,
> 
> And that is a good message to send to the troops that are trying to solve their challenges with PTSD, and try to continue to serve.
> 
> ...



Tess,

Don't get me wrong, if the fella is sick, he needs help.
That having been said, if the fella was not in control of his faculties, the court would not have tried him and no sentence would have been given.... if the sentence was handed out, he was in control of his faculties and should be held responsible.

If being around the military is what triggers off his mood swings, maybe he needs to be released for the therapy he is following to work.

Obviously I threw together a string of events that would, under normal circumstances, take plenty of time..... some might be required, some might not..... that is for his CoC to act upon.

BTW, I know several people who are suffering from PTSD - to varying degrees - not one of them has taken a tire iron to a wife, an acquaintance or a perfect stranger...... what's his excuse?


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## pbi (13 Jun 2007)

This at least the second case I've heard of in which a person has attempted to justify criminal actions by drumming up a story about being affected by "atrocities" they witnessed in FRY. The first case, several years ago involved an individual who I was personally familiar with: we served on the same tour and in the same organization. I wish I had been called to testify at the CM because I could have very easily refuted his stories about the incidents he "witnessed": they either didn't happen or were blown out of all proportion.

Now this other individual trots out the same kind of story (although this time it  doesn't seem to have convinced anybody.)

Despite the various risks that we all faced in Yugo, how many of us actually "witnessed" atrocities? Some, yes, but of the thousands of Canadians who cycled through the various missions, IMHO it would only have been a relatively small number, and the great majority of these would have been in the early UN missions, not the NATO mission. Those who did witness atrocities were, I'm guessing, probably mostly combat arms types right at the sharp end, not MSE Ops in the NSE or LogBat. Of those people that saw anything, I'm guessing that only a very few actually developed PTSD serious enough to cause them to commit criminal actions years later. And, in these cases, it should be relatively easy to establish the facts.

I am not attacking people who have suffered PTSD. They deserve all the care and respect we can give them, and we should focus on how we can reintegrate them, not dump them on VAC (DVA is US). I am attacking liars and frauds who make up stories to justify their own criminal behaviour, and prosecutors not diligent enough to actually investigate the defendant's claims. These fakes disgrace all of us, and they dishonour soldiers who are truly suffering. The CF needs to do all it can to see that the Crown gets all the info it needs to expose them if they try to hide behind military service as an alibi.

Cheers


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## the 48th regulator (13 Jun 2007)

pbi said:
			
		

> This at least the second case I've heard of in which a person has attempted to justify criminal actions by drumming up a story about being affected by "atrocities" they witnessed in FRY. The first case, several years ago involved an individual who I was personally familiar with: we served on the same tour and in the same organization. I wish I had been called to testify at the CM because I could have very easily refuted his stories about the incidents he "witnessed": they either didn't happen or were blown out of all proportion.
> 
> Now this other individual trots out the same kind of story (although this time it  doesn't seem to have convinced anybody.)
> 
> ...




Phenomenal post, you have summed up my feelings and beliefs

cheers


dileas

tess


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## ArmyRick (13 Jun 2007)

Well written, pbi. I don't think we should allow PTSD to become a crutch.


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## Red 6 (13 Jun 2007)

Having post-combat stress doesn't give anybody the right to inflict serious injury on another person. If you think about it, Soldiers are in the business of protecting the population. This guy doesn't deserve to wear the uniform. In my opinion he's not only disgraced his oath, but also made things tougher for others who fight their battles every day of their lives. No illness or affliction is an excuse for criminal activity and this sort of thing just validates the "crazy combat veteran" impression that some people in our society unfortunately hold to.


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## safeboy43 (13 Jun 2007)

Red 6 said:
			
		

> Having post-combat stress doesn't give anybody the right to inflict serious injury on another person. If you think about it, Soldiers are in the business of protecting the population. This guy doesn't deserve to wear the uniform. In my opinion he's not only disgraced his oath, but also made things tougher for others who fight their battles every day of their lives. No illness or affliction is an excuse for criminal activity and this sort of thing just validates the "crazy combat veteran" impression that some people in our society unfortunately hold to.


+1 R6. This incident will only reinforce the "crazy combat vet" stories and help turn the public more and more against the mission in A-stan.  If this guy was capable of controlling himself, he should be discharged from the CF and thrown in jail.


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## reccecrewman (14 Jun 2007)

That was a good post Red 6.  It merely sets the stage for public opinion to turn against the mission in A-Stan as a breeding ground for turning our brave men and women into sociopaths who will return to cities and towns across Canada and start taking out the populace with tire irons.  PTSD or no PTSD, the man committed a CRIMINAL ACT by the criminal code of Canada and should be punished as it dictates. If it turns out the man does indeed suffer from PTSD, then perhaps time in a Penitentiary is not the remedy, but time in a good mental health facility where he can be properly treated is in order.  Under no circumstances does this man belong on the streets, he's proven himself to be a menace to society.  I'm NOT attacking all personnel who suffer PTSD and saying they should be locked up in jails or psych wards, but if they have proven themselves incapable of living in society, then society deserves protection from said individual.

My .02


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## redsled1 (17 Jun 2007)

He should be put in jail held in custody until trial date. whether he has ptsd or not.If he' s married his wife should be thinking about her situation in a serious way.  Assault causing bbodily harm(to a female).For our military the clown is a waste of oxygen. He has PTSD ------ SO WHAT MANY SOLDIERS HAVE they don't take tire irons after their dates


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## FascistLibertarian (17 Jun 2007)

Yeah its bs but look at it from his prespective.
He has 2 options
1) admit he is a loon
2) claim he has ptsd and its not his fault

#2 is clearly better for him.

This reminds me of the defense used by skitzos that they committed a crime because they are skitzo. The fact is when medicated skitzos are no more violent than the rest of society, but some skitzos (or people with ptsd) will commit crimes.


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## L + W Infanteer (19 Jun 2007)

in reference to the previous post... just because a schizophrenic is medicated does not mean (s)he will stay that way. There are many reasons why they stop taking medication, numerous and very adverse side affects being one of them. 

But in reference to the topic.... ptsd or not, this guy is extremely violent and a high risk to the CF and society either way. If he's using ptsd as an excuse or crutch it will only serve to put even more of negative stigma on the disease and insult those who are actually suffering from it. If he actually has it, I would hope that he's tried to get help long ago; rather than letting it come to this.


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## SHELLDRAKE!! (19 Jun 2007)

If PTSD is used as a defense for a criminal act, the court should be allowed to take statements of those that worked with the person on the tour to ascertain if they were ever in a stressfull situation.


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## oozieman (19 Jun 2007)

I am so glad that we have so many Psycologists on this board. Wow you can diagnose what's going on in someones mind just by a newspaper article. I am so impressed. I am not condoning his acts by no means. Violence is violence but no one on this board is qualified to judge anyone who and who does not have PTSD


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## Munxcub (19 Jun 2007)

I don't think anyone was saying whether or not his claim of PTSD was true or not, just the validity of it as an excuse.


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## GAP (19 Jun 2007)

oozieman said:
			
		

> I am so glad that we have so many Psycologists on this board. Wow you can diagnose what's going on in someones mind just by a newspaper article. I am so impressed. I am not condoning his acts by no means. Violence is violence but no one on this board is qualified to judge anyone who and who does not have PTSD



Sooooo....you are suggesting that we all sit meekly by, knowing in all probability the PSTD is a lame excuse, and almost everyone here has qualified that there is a maybe, and not say anything that might upset the poor dear......give me a break!


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## FascistLibertarian (19 Jun 2007)

> just because a schizophrenic is medicated does not mean (s)he will stay that way.


Of I agree, my point is that just because someone is schizophrenic does not mean they will be violent and more importantly just because someone is violent who is schizophrenic does not mean it is because they are schizophrenic. Did not really explain myself well, but I mean, what about the vast majority of PTSD people who are harmless.......
Correlation does not prove causation.


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## SHELLDRAKE!! (19 Jun 2007)

If he is claiming he has PTSD as a result of an overseas tour, then why not bring in a few people who worked at the same place/time for a broader perspective of what happened. No one is saying he doesnt have PTSD because it affects people differently but for him to argue (for example) that his time as the Split leave NCO was causing voices in his head to say "bash her with a tire iron", might be hard for a court to believe when the guy who worked beside him for 6 months, signed out motorscooters.


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## oozieman (19 Jun 2007)

No I am not saying that we sit meekly by and let him use it as an excuse. All I am saying is that it seems like most people on this form has tried and found him gulity and sentenced him for using PTSD as an excuse. I fully agree that "IF" he is lying than throw the book at him. All I am saying is you cannot say whether he is telling the truth or not because you are not qaulified


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## GAP (19 Jun 2007)

And nobody here is saying that either....read the posts....most qualify that "if it is being used as an excuse"....blah, blah....

Are you forgetting the recent Winnipeg courtroom drama where the jerk claimed PTSD, and others, who served with him tried to correct the claim here and through the prosecutor/court and were unable to...This is largely a reaction to that, and probably a whole host of other things.


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## formermilitaryspouse (27 Mar 2008)

From the perspective of "the wife"... though we were never legally married:

I had belonged to this forum before... but obviously with the events that took place with "William", I found myself having to draw back from many of these forums, and "the life" as a whole, for many obvious reasons... let alone the sheer embarrassment of the whole situation.  I thank a friend (nonmilitary), who is very dear to me for drawing my attention to the fact that this thread existed on here.  Does it surprise me, no, is it an eyeopener, yes!  I have to agree with the post that it is easy to look from the outside, and think that you know what is going on... when really, all it is is theory and speculation.  I also thank the person that commented that I should take a long look at the situation that I was in.... not noting that maybe I was just a bit too close to the situation, to really take a look at it the way that I maybe should have.  Though I do appreciate the concern, I really do.

For the record.... he NEVER laid a hand on my, or that of either of my children.  This was a man that I fell deeply in love with as he was sweet, caring, and gave me all I needed both emotionally, spiritually, and physically.  He was at one time, the man of my dreams... my Mr. Right... or so I thought until he got sick.  He would dote over me like no one ever had, treated me like I had never been treated, and supported me through the challenges of a terrible, awful blood bath of a divorce and custody battle for my children, never leaving my side... and always standing up for me, and with me, when I barely had the strength to fight anymore.  He loved my children as if they were his own, which completely warmed my heart.  He looked out for them, and even stepped into the role a few times when needed to back me up with them... as they were teenagers going through a hellish custody battle, being torn from both sides, which brought challenges and rebellion at times that was no easy tasking to deal with.  He did it though... and stood bravely beside me... how could I not love him, and be grateful to him for that.  Not saying that he also spoiled me rotten with coffee in bed every morning, always assuring that I had my laundry done, and that meals were prepared when I got home from work.  Yes... I did things for him too... as there were debts that he had when we met that needed to be paid, and he too needed care and support... but all in all... we had what I thought at the time, a bright future.... so I did not mind sharing my wealth with him... so to speak.  That is what couples do when they are in love, and working toward a long term commitment... is it not?

Was this all a shocker to me.... DAMNED RIGHTS it was!  I had no idea that this had gone on... and if I had... would I have stayed... and supported him in going ahead and doing it... ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!  This goes way out there, far from who I am.... and what I believe in... it goes far beyond the level of compassion that I feel for others... but yet... I loved him... and yes... I knew he was sick before the crimes were committed, but never thought that it would reach this level.  Had I.... you can bet your life that I would have fought to the core of my being to prevent it... not only for the poor woman that was hurt... but also to try to save him too.  My heart still goes out to her, and you cannot believe the guilt that I have to live with thinking, and thinking if there was any way at all that I could have maybe have seen something, just even a glimpse that would have prevented this... and saved her too the life long mental injury this must have cost her as well.

Not to defend him... as that is not the intent at all of this post... but simply to give you an insider perspective on the whole situation.  As I agree with most of you, wholeheartedly, PTSD is not an excuse, nor should it be used as one.  I have had to learn an awful lot about PTSD over the past few years... not only to help Bill... but also to bring some rational to the whole situation, and how to deal with it.... I am posting here some history on the whole situation with him.... and please note, this is one that I too have moved on from last year... as I really had to face whether I even was helping him, or simply enabling him.  My personal determination... "enabling"... and not allowing him to gain his own Independence to find the healing from it that he needed.  Let alone what it was doing to my own mental state, and life... and that of my children.  Removing myself from the situation... after setting the stage for recovery was something that I had to face the fact that I had to do.

History:

William came from a troubled past, one where he was the product of a broken home... though not an excuse... as he had two (well actually three) loving parents who loved and supported him.  He still had developed odd behaviors... and issues with relationships that bordered on "needy".  (Had I known this before I got involved, would I have... certainly not)  Should this have been caught in the assessment that qualified him for the military in the first place, most definitely, and to this day... I still feel that something should be incorporated to flush out the challenges and weaknesses that would allow a terrible condition, such as PTSD to creep in... as I believe it takes a very strong minded person to do the job that some may have to face in this life... and that of other career paths.  That being said though.... back on track.  He was nonetheless accepted, and faced basic training, that broke him.... which he failed the first time through... and went a second time through... coming out so strong that he was then sent on to his "3s" and shone.  So much so that he was sent of far earlier in his career overseas than most were at the time.  His service in Bosnia and before was exemplimentary, and even after to the point where he was commended highly on each and ever PDR and report written on him... including memos that commended his service and dedication.  He was a hard worker... and well liked by his peers... even looked up to by some.

So what happened?  Almost two years after his tour, he started to act oddly... well... in fact... looking back... there were symptoms that were present that should have been an indicator... but... did I know enough about PTSD at the time to relate it to this... no.... absolutely not.  It actually took me disclosing some of what was happening at home to have someone who knew a lot about it within the military community to push me to research it more, and and really look at whether this was something that I should push to have him assessed for.  Which, after some internal debate, and a hell of a lot of research... I did.  I even went as far as talking to the peers that had served with him on that fateful tour, and had been present at the scene of the accident that let to his trauma to see what exactly had happened, how exactly it had been handled, and where I could go from there to help him.  He WAS diagnosed before he committed any crime.... and was undergoing treatment through the military for it... both on the clinical and mental health sides.  Was it handled appropriately on that end.... well... on the mental health side, there were valiant efforts, as he had a psychologist that was admirable in his efforts to help... but the rest of the system failed him.... as some was due to waiting for appropriate treatment... and the rest was not listening to those close to him that were crying desperately for help... as the treatment that they had given through the medications perscribed were wrong, and making the problem worsen.  But... who am I... just a "wife"... so what could I know?  Hmmmm.... forgot to add... I am a former nurse, with a degree in pharmaceuticals... hmmmm.  You can well imagine my frustration with the "system" at this point, as I watched the man that I loved deeply spiral out of control.... though even I could not see to what depth.  All I knew was he was disappearing for hours on end unexplained.... and that I needed to be home more to see where he was.... and what he was doing, as it did not seem healthy.  There were discoveries of internet affairs... that led to personal meetings... and sexual experiences... but when caught... and confronted... the remorse shown was very unusual... and childlike that one could not help but try to give a second chance.... and figure out even more so how to help him.  I cannot explain why I stayed... as this too was very much against what I stood for... and vowed that if any man ever cheated on me... I never would again... as from a previous marriage, I knew all too well the pain and expense to myself to stay... and I cared far too much for myself to put myself through that hell again.  But... alas.... something within me told me I needed to... and I did.  This so was not who he was the first half of our relationship... to this point... so... I stayed.... and likely worked harder to find the help that he needed.  Then came the trists with hookers... as to him... based on experiences of his childhood... were not people... but objects, and were considered more acceptable of a resource for the desired fulfillment that he sought, than cheating with someone that did not ask for money for the "service" (and yes... he was having those needs met at home to the maximum, as we had a very healty and fulfilling sex life, for those that may think differently, though at times... the associated guilt he felt, for how he had hurt me, had inhibited his ability to perform to the fullest potential).  And his obsession with porn, that far surpassed the normal curiosity and enjoyment of it.  Two things that quickly led to a diagnosis of a sexual addiction.  This was the point where I really was again challenged to ask myself... if he had a disease like epilepsy... and kicked me in the stomach during a seizure, would I stay... and the answer I think if fairly obvious.... yes... I would.  Had he been physically injured in combat, would I have stayed and supported him through it... yes... I would have... so.... beginning to learn more about PTSD... and the associated addictions that can present themselves through it... or as a part of it.... I stayed.... and continured to try to support... and find the help and answers for it... and how to help him learn to function with it.

So what led to that fateful day that he committed the first crimes.... the break and enters.... well... as many who know PTSD well... there is always that search for the high.... the intrigue... the fulfillment that is thought to be missing.  In his case, it was not necessarily the high that he was searching for... but... he really deemed that if there were no prostitutes out there to offer the service, and no places to obtain it... that he would not be tempted... and could not hurt me with it.  He wanted more than ever to stop... but did not know how.... and did not know how to communicate that though he had the desire... that it had reached a level that he felt was out of control too.  Remembering too that often with PTSD, the difference between right and wrong can be ascude... and what is right to that of a stable, right minded person... can sometimes be amiss to someone suffering from it at a normal level, let alone someone with a diagnosis of a severe degree.  Did this mean though that he wished to physically hurt the prostitutes... no... he absolutely did not want to... he started by wanting only to put the establishments (massage parlours) out of business.... as he felt that if he could successfully hamper their ability to do business... they would shut their doors and go away.  Was he playing with a full deck here in thinking this.... no... absolutely not!!!  We all know that!  Once caught for that.... he realized that he was not helping.... and that it was not helping him either... and... he was yet on that stupid medication prescribed by MIR that further messed with his brain to the capacity that made rational thought even more difficult to obtain... as shortly before this.... their response to the cries for help.... increase the dosage.  Which was causing him to be in a state of Manic.... to a severe degree.  (Note:  A warning sent out by the manufacturer to all doctors... across North America... DO NOT perscribe Effexor to persons diagnosed with MDD, as it will heighten episodes of Manic... which along with the PTSD... he had also been diagnosed with, during his assessment)

A day before the trial for these break and enters.... again the police came to my door... and forcefully arrested him.... for the crime with the "socket wrench" (not a "tire iron", which... interestingly enough... I only threw out not too long ago... as the police did not get the actual weapon in their search and seizure in my home, which while going through this... and the fact that I stand for truth and honesty, played hugely on my mind as to what to do with it... to the point that I hired my own legal counsel to advise me... as do I do what I deemed right and turn it over to the authorities... as they had missed it... or did I throw it out... and help the person that I loved... a dilemma I am sure that most would not have wanted to face, his advice... keep it... wrap it in a towel... and put it in a large ziplock... and turn it over willingly if and when they discovered they did not actually have the weapon when doing the DNA testing on the alledged weapon.... which I did... and they never came for... as Bill pleaded guilty, and willingly took his punishment, and incarceration, for a crime that he not only did not remember committing... but felt horribly responsible for... and wanted nothing more than to make right... as to this day... he lives with huge depression issues... and enormous guilt and remorse for).  

On a positive side... was this something that turned out for the good... yes... though he and I both live with the guilt that someone actually got hurt in the awful process... and now him more than I.... it did allow him to find a civilian psychiatrist with a deep desire to see him get better... and re-intergrate him into life... as normally as possibly... though his normal will never likely be the same as yours and mine... as his brain will likely stay as that now of an 8 year old... and he has also had to live with the consequence of half of his family turning their backs on him, and alienating him.... as well as the rest of his family moving away to such distance that it has left him completely alone to face life.  In addition... I am no longer with him... which has also taken a toll on him to an enormous degree.  Am I the awful one for not wanting to walk this path any longer as a result?  No, I do not feel that I am... as really... was I helping him... no... I was enabling, and possibly inhibiting any further recovery by continually catering to him.... and taking care of everything, and everyone for him... and not allowing him to gain an Independence for himself.  

Does he need to be institutionalized... yes... and believe me... I have fought for that... to the point of having no fight left.  It is only my hope and prayer that someone someday will see this... and put him where he will be safe for himself.... and potentially others, should he not take the proper meds that have finally been prescribed.  Somewhere hopefully that will also help him to properly rehabilitate.

Did the military do the right thing by Dishonorably Discharging him... yes... the did... absolutely... as I have said before... PTSD is NOT an excuse for such a hanous crime.  Nor should it be tolerated.  He did the crime... and the time... and he is most definitely not fit to serve as a result of this.  He is not only not fit... but yes... could be deemed a danger, as he has not got the mental capacity needed to do the job.

Is he now a "violent criminal"... no... he is a good person deep down inside... that did a "bad thing"... he knows it... owns it... and is trying so hard to get past it... but unfortunately, is stuck.... and at this point in his life... cannot even live with what he did himself.

I say all the above not to make you feel sympathy for him... and especially not for me... as I made my bed by staying, and own it... and though at times, question if I too was played for the fool... which honestly knowing him well... I do not think I was... but rather to put some clarity to what really happened.

Thank you all for your honest comments on this subject... as everyone has the right to their opinions on it... and are most certainly welcome to express them... as that is what is and has been fought for... has it not?  I do appreciate all views... with deepest sincerity.  I also thank my friend for making me aware of this thread... as it to some degree has allowed me the final closure on this chapter of my life.


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## geo (27 Mar 2008)

Excellent post FMS.
The PTSD issue is something that we are becoming more and more aware of.  Is it the result of earlier weaknesses that have gone unnoticed / unreported for a long time OR the result of experiences while in the service - in Canada or overseas.  The support you offered William before, during and after his problems surfaced will be appreceated by the comrades who once (or still) called him "friend" and William himself.

Nevertheless, I am glad that you have moved on - hopefuly to better things.

Best Regards

Geo


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## OldSolduer (27 Mar 2008)

There's a guy in Manitoba here that used the PTSD defence successfully. He raped a 13 year old girl. He said it was from witnessing atrocities in Bosnia in 94, and that he had to kill 4 or 5 Serbs.
The Crown never thought to subpoena the CO from that tour. After the trial, military members came forward and basically said this guy was a liar. The Crown is now appealing I believe.
There is no doubt in my mind that PTSD does exist. Having said that, it's incumbent on the leadership to identify and assist those who do suffer from PTSD.
We must not only train troops to physically...weapons drills, attacking etc, but MENTALLY as well. There are far too many Pollyannas who think its going to be allllll good. It's not all good, and if we don't identify and assist our soldiers, we have failed our troops and our country.


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## formermilitaryspouse (27 Mar 2008)

Thanks Geo, and yes, they are becoming more aware.  I know that in the time that I spent dealing with Bill's issues, and the countless hours that I spent with not only Padres and others within his unit on his behalf... well sorting out this mess, and assuring he get the continued support that he deserved for his injury... and quite frankly, cleaning up his mess... as well as time spent in Peer Support Groups, etc.... there is a lot that has been much growth in the area of awareness, and treatment to/for the illness... and there are others that suffer to the extent that he does... and unfortunately either commit crimes, or worse, end their lives, that never make the papers (media)... however... there is a long way to go... but hopefully what he suffered... as did others... will bring on some positive change to how it is dealt with... so it is not all for not.  I am a true believer that things happen for a reason, and hopefully this was a stepping stone to greater discovery so others will be taken more seriously when crying desperately for help.

OS... I could not agree with you more.... there has to be training, as well as better screening, to help mentally prepare the troops for what they may see, hear, feel... as the mind can be fragile... and unfortunately... it never is "all good", when things they become mentally damaged as a result of a mental injury.  Unfortunately at times... this said mental injury can be more devastating, and life changing not only to the injured, but also to many others that become directly, or indirectly affected by that said injury.  And yes, there definitely are those that use the diagnosis improperly... or claim to have it that do not... which is really a tragedy, as unfortunately, it causes those that do sincerely have it to have to jump through greater hoops to receive the treatment for the illness, and get on with a better quality of life.

Yes Geo, I have moved on in life, as to whether it is for the better, well, that remains to be seen... but hopefully... as having had this season in my life has definitely given me a changed perspective, and a much more cautious take on how moving forward looks... as unfortunately, there were many personal costs... to that of myself and my children in dealing with this... and the effects of it were lasting... but hopefully have made all of us stronger and more aware.


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## OldSolduer (27 Mar 2008)

formermilitaryspouse I fully agree.
 :warstory:
Back in the "day"...about 1975, we were shown a movie (not a video...lol) called Army Medicine in Vietnam. It was meant to show what great strides the US Army had made medically and how medical techniques had advanced. It had a second, I beleive unintended effect, and that was psychological preparation for the sights a soldier may see in a field of battle.
Then in the 80's, as an instructor at CFRS, I was informed that the movie was not allowed to be shown to recruits, as it was too graphic and caused some of them to feel uncomfortable.
This is where we started, as far as I'm concerned, on the road to perdition. The CF failed to recognize there is a mental aspect to combat and did very little to train soldiers psychologically. 
I tell my troops that are thinking of deploying to train mentally as well as physically. It may not eliminate PTSD, but it may lessen the effects. Mind you, I'm no psychologist, so I could be shooting outside my arcs of fire....


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## formermilitaryspouse (27 Mar 2008)

OS... I do not think that you are shooting outside your acrs at all... in fact, I think you are bang on the money.  There is a lot of time spent in training, as the CF has some of the best prepared and trained troops in the world, when it comes to dealing with the events and things that could take place in combat... and their readiness is exemplimentary in my personal opinion... however... where they do seriously fail is in the mental preparation aspect... and it is something that really must be addressed... as again, in my opinion, it is only going to get worse, before it gets better if they do not.  As you stated, you are not a psychologist, and *nor am I*... but having lived closely to the situation... and also dealing with others who lived closely with their own situations, as a result of this illness... there *MUST* be something done to take the steps to stopping the long term affects on the troops should they not be prepared.  It is my sincerest hope that this... as well as other cases... will bring positive outcomes for others... and not be a waste.


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## geo (27 Mar 2008)

The Canadian Army wasn,t much of an Army for a long long time.  The PEACEKEEPING mode we went into in the late 60s made us into something more akin to a constabulary always having to react to the bad things that had already been done.... instead of taking steps to ensure bad things didn't happen.

We've had to reinvent the wheel once again - and that isn't an easy process, at the best of times.

Hopefuly, eyes wide open, we can move forward - while caring for our troops AND their supporting staff (families)


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## formermilitaryspouse (27 Mar 2008)

Geo... I could not agree with you more.  It is unfortunate that we allowed it to get to the to the point where the mentality was that the we were merely "Peacekeepers" and a I truly believe this has not only allowed many to join with the thought that it is an easy income without being fully prepared for what may be the long term, or lasting effect on their own life... let alone that of the lives of others.  Please do not take this as me saying that there is any "easy" aspect to the career... or "the life"... as no... it is a tough life at times... and a hard and demanding job... just addressing the perception of some of the newer recruits... full of piss and vinegar... often babes themselves... lacking desperately in life experiences to prepare them for what may come.  If only I had five bucks for each time that I have heard that we are peacekeepers... and should not have to go into such battles... or face such attrocities... I would be a rich woman... but none the less... signing on the dotted line is giving of your life... and your mind in the end.  

I also believe that the process in basic training of "tear them down to rebuild them" is one that also needs to be re-addressed... as yes... there are some aspects of it that are important in preparing them for the readiness for combat, and the willingness to take direction for the bigger picture.... and it is valuable in my opinion... but... there needs to be another aspect to it too... to muster them for experiences that they may not be ready, or willing to handle on a mental and emotional level.  This is solely my opinion though as someone looking at it from outside the wire.  I could be way out to lunch.


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## OldSolduer (27 Mar 2008)

:warstory:
A primarily infantry training base used to contract a local slaughter house to give recruits a tour and a chicken each....the exposure to blood, intestines etc was thought to be beneficial for the mental aspect of killing. The chicken was for the physical act.
This too was cancelled, as some were found to be uncomfortable.
I was lucky and my upbringing has greatly assisted me in my career, now that I think about it I did a lot of hunting of small game (squirrels and rabbits) and helped butcher cattle, so blood was not a new thing.
So many of our kids are raised in what I call the "Disney Culture" - where all the animals get along and sing in the forest. The truth is the strong eat the weak and its bloody and messy. When some (not all) see blood for the first time (in great quantity) they freak. Too see great quantitites of blood and gore for the first time should be in training, not combat. Can you imagine telling a soldier he can't fire his rifle until he gets into combat?
I think that we should expose them to blood and gore....realistic training (Cas Sim comes to mind), coveralls stuffed with offal so when it get hits by grenade fire, it spreads the blood and gore. Just a suggestion.


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## geo (27 Mar 2008)

:warstory:  In my area we would train our new soldiers by having them deal with a rabbit & a chicken during a winter exercise.  It was training them to "live off the land".


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## formermilitaryspouse (27 Mar 2008)

I am sorry... I had to chuckle at the chicken and slaughter house thing... that was so weak in my opinion... as I too have been exposed to that side of life, and in no way would that prepare me for seeing 3 decapitated bodies... and knowing that I had killed them, regardless of whether or not it was my fault.... I do not know if I could honestly handle that either... and not snap... as being the compassionate sort I am... I think it would continually run through my mind as to if I could have at all avoided it at some cost.

That is only a scratch to the surface though... as some of the things that I have heard happened in Rwanda... or even in the early days in Bosnia... let alone all the others... I cannot say that may honestly are equipped to deal with, on an emotional, or mental level... as really... what would be the first response of a civilian if he were to be watching a small child being raped... or a woman being beaten... and knowing that there was really little he could do about it... as it could be a trap... and one that could put his life in grave danger to deal with... or that of others around him that he called comrades... or even just friends.  At one point and time, all that join are civilians... and life alone lived however we have lived it, really is not a training ground for seeing such incredible atrocities... especially when going out on some clean up mission, and seeing a decaying mother holding her dead baby.... I know I could not bear that sight... as not only would it leave me feeling helpless... and powerless... but I honestly think the sight alone would distrub me greatly for a long time to come.

Not sure what the answer is to preparing these troops for sights and experiences that they may encounter... but... think taking a soldier to a slaughter house, or killing game is hardly preparation.  Again though... that is my personal opinion.


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## Jarnhamar (27 Mar 2008)

> Davies was also successful in getting the judge to not impose the mandatory 10-year firearms prohibition against Drake so it would not interfere with his military career.



Interfere with his career in the CF? He shouldn't HAVE a career int he CF after this.


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## OldSolduer (27 Mar 2008)

formermilitaryspouse - the trips to slaughterhouses etc is the first time that some of these kids have seen blood, other than from a skinned knee. Would it be better than doing nothing? It may appear weak, but to the kid from an urban middle class background that has never seen blood it can be quited traumatic. That is why the films and trips were stopped....too many complaints that little Johnnie felt a bit sick and couldn't eat his lunch. Little Johnnie should have been told to suck it up and carry on, because it gets worse.
I will agree.....there is probably not much we can do to prepare people to see decapitations.....but its our duty to try.
Last October, three of us assisted at the scene of a car accident in which two people were burned to death right in front of my two guys. They saw two people die horribly. I assisted the paramedics loading a guy on a backboard, and his femur was sticking out of his thigh.  Because of our training, and our RSM bringing in a counsellor, we  are OK. This is what the chain of command has to do. Identify and offer assistance.


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## formermilitaryspouse (27 Mar 2008)

OS... I could not agree with you more that some cannot handle the act of seeing the really minimal (as caomapred to human life... it is minimal) amount of blood that can be seen in such an act, and I agree... it is very much a first step, and can definitely seperate the 'men from the boys' in some, and probably most cases.  All I was trying to get out is that it really was absolutely not enough to have them deal with such tragdies as you just explained that your men had to witness.  Thankfully something was done, as the chain of command responded appropriately... as they should, that is their job.  Unfortunately, it is not always the case though, as many well know.  The ball gets dropped at times... with a weaker... or less compassionate chain of command... or simply one that does not give a rats butt... and it affects the life of many.

What about the case where the soldier is removed from the accident... but not from the scene, and proper mental health proceedures are not followed... or followed weakly, or without follow up... and rather... he is sent off for some R&R... after all... going and getting plastered for a few days is a great cure, is it not? LOL  

I totally get what you are saying though... and totally agree.


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## geo (27 Mar 2008)

FMS,
As OS mentioned, some of these young men and women have only "just" left home and haven't had much experience dealing with anything that resembles a human body ... or anything else that bleads.... let alone having to put it to death.  If they can't handle this, woe be the day they are on the plains of a foreign country, fighting for themselves and the lives of their comrades.


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## formermilitaryspouse (27 Mar 2008)

Haha... thanks Geo, I get that.  Guess it is not coming across that way.  Sorry.


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## jollyjacktar (27 Mar 2008)

OS, I remember that flick Army Medicine in VN.  Saw it as a young guy too.  Good flick should be revisited or a more suitable updated version.  One of my guys is former British Para/RM, they used to make the kids crawl through shell scrapes containing offal from local slaughter houses while at the same time firing over their heads with live ammo and lots of t-flashes and the like.  He said that it helped somewhat to prepare one for the shock of war.

I did come across many young kids (many Reserves) last year rotating through KAF who had seen and done some horrible things for one so young.  I do expect that there will be plenty of headspace and timing issues for long to come after this.  But then again many of the kids will come out shining too.  Each and everyone of us have a different breaking point or saturation level.

FMS, thank you for your candor and coming forward to shed more light on this case.  It must have not been easy to step out into the public eye so to speak and give of yourself like this.  My best wishes and warmest regards for your future endeavours.


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## formermilitaryspouse (27 Mar 2008)

Thanks JJT... no... it definitely was not easy... and took some thought to do so... but... at the same time... as I stated... it did help with finally closing that chapter on my life completely.  Thank you all for indulging me on that... and hearing me out.  I did this not to defend him... as it is his path, his journey in life.  But rather to put some of the facts to the issue, and mostly for personal closure to it all.  

Thanks again everyone... for all your comments, openess and honesty on this issue... from even before I posted... as it really helped me to see it from others perspectives... but also to put it completely behind me.


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