# Computer Programming in the Canadian Forces



## bms (18 Aug 2007)

I was wondering if there is an occupation within the RegForce Officer spectrum that can make significant usage of a Computer Science degree? I'm talking(of course) about computer programming or "software engineering"(as they dolled it up a bit).

 I have read about 14 Wing - Squadrons & Units - 14 Software Engineering in the Air Force, as well as the Aerospace Control(Officer) occupation.


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## Roy Harding (18 Aug 2007)

Take a look at the CELE (Communications and Electronics Engineering) branch.  The acronym may have changed, but I think you'd find this area of specialty right up your alley.

http://www.recruiting.forces.gc.ca/v3/engraph/jobs/jobs.aspx?id=83&bhcp=1

http://www.recruiting.forces.gc.ca/v3/engraph/jobs/jobs.aspx?id=84&bhcp=1

There are other areas in which your expertise would fit well - the above are just provided as examples.


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## aesop081 (18 Aug 2007)

bms said:
			
		

> I was wondering if there is an occupation within the RegForce Officer spectrum that can make significant usage of a Computer Science degree? I'm talking(of course) about computer programming or "software engineering"(as they dolled it up a bit).
> 
> I have read about 14 Wing - Squadrons & Units - 14 Software Engineering in the Air Force, as well as the Aerospace Control(Officer) occupation.



Aerospace control doesnt have a whole lot to do with computer programing.

14 SES handles computer programing for the CP-140 Aurora Weapon system and its military pers are from Aircrew (pilot, navigator and AES Op ) and AERE that have experience with the CP-140


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## Sub_Guy (18 Aug 2007)

You could also look at the Civilian side of the house, there are plenty of civvies in the IT side of the house (with generally good paying positions, not to mention the odd paid vacation to Dubai to work on Ships servers...)


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## bms (18 Aug 2007)

I believe I've found what I was searching for through the Signals(Officer) for the Army(Which is still CELE).

From http://www.recruiting.forces.gc.ca/v3/engraph/jobs/jobs.aspx?id=84&bhcp=1


> As a Signals Officer, you will be extensively involved in *systems engineering* and network operations, working with Army command support equipment such as:
> 
> * Purpose designed, computer based Information Systems that assist with Battlefield Command and Control, Reconnaissance and Surveillance, and Target Acquisition
> 
> ...



From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_engineering


> Systems Engineering (SE) is an interdisciplinary approach and means for enabling the design, realization and deployment of complex artificial systems.[1][2] Systems Engineering integrates other disciplines and specialty groups into a team effort, forming a structured development process that proceeds from concept to production to operation and disposal. Systems Engineering considers both the business and the technical needs of all customers, with the goal of providing a quality product that meets the user needs.





> Systems engineering techniques are used in complex projects: from spacecrafts to chip design, from robotics to creating large software products to building bridges, Systems engineering uses a host of tools that include modeling & simulation, requirements analysis, and scheduling to manage complexity





> Software engineering: From its beginnings Software engineering has shaped modern Systems Engineering practice to a great degree.[citation needed] The techniques used in the handling of complexes of large software-intensive systems has had a major effect on the shaping and reshaping of the tools, methods and processes of SE (e.g., see SysML, CMMI, Object-oriented analysis and design, Requirements engineering, Formal methods and Language theory).



 I supplied the extra stuff just in case someone else has the same question .


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## bms (25 Aug 2007)

I was wondering if either Signals Officers or CELE Officers have to do extensive programming. The CFRC did recommend CELE Officer for this type of job, but I was really wondering if this is the case from the beginning, or if its only after you are into a much larger contract than the first.

 Thanks.


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## George Wallace (25 Aug 2007)

Not happy with answers to your previous questions?

It has been laid out to you that in most people's experience, there are no military Computer Programers; most are contracted civilian or Public Civil Servants.  This in no way stops anyone from studying and getting a degree in Computer Sciences.

As a Cadet Warrant Officer, I am sure you have heard the term "Administrative Burden" and what it implies?


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## canadianblue (25 Aug 2007)

I'd suggest if you really want to do computer program you should apply for the DND as a civilian. I currently work in the IS section at the base that I am at and around half of the guys working with computers, networks, etc. are civilian. 

In the future we might, and I emphasize might, see an NCM trade which is soley geared towards the IS side of things in dealing with computers.


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## Haggis (25 Aug 2007)

bms said:
			
		

> I was wondering if either Signals Officers or CELE Officers have to do extensive programming. The CFRC did recommend CELE Officer for this type of job, but I was really wondering if this is the case from the beginning, or if its only after you are into a much larger contract than the first.



I work in the IM Group at NDHQ.  CELE is the closest thing to a "progarammer" that you will find as a formal occupation in the CF.  In most cases CELE officers use their extensive systems and project knowledge to lead and supervise those who actually do the programming and make the computers beep, hum and byte.

However, *as others have said*, if you really want to write code for the CF, join the Public Service and become a Computer Systems (CS) civilian.

Clear enough?


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## CivCanuck (25 Aug 2007)

bms said:
			
		

> I was wondering if there is an occupation within the RegForce Officer spectrum that can make significant usage of a Computer Science degree? I'm talking(of course) about computer programming or "software engineering"(as they dolled it up a bit).
> 
> I have read about 14 Wing - Squadrons & Units - 14 Software Engineering in the Air Force, as well as the Aerospace Control(Officer) occupation.


I've read this forum for a long time but just registered today, thought this post seemed appropriate.

Anyways, I'm in a similar situation, I'm not sure where you are now, but I'm about to enter the third year of a computer science degree. At first I was looking to see if there was a computer programming job in the military. After searching around, I realized that it was pretty unlikely. If you want to "serve your country" through programming, check out the CSE (part of the DND) or look at other civy jobs in the DND and you should be able to find something. 

Anyways, I started thinking about it, and wanting to join the military was partially due to wanting a bit of adventure, and sitting around writing computer code doesn't exactly fit in with this. I also realized that even though I enjoy CS, I really don't care if I spend my life writing code or not.  But looking around the recruiting site, even if there aren't any "programming" jobs, there looks to be lots of jobs that a CS degree would work quite well for. CELE and SIGS have been mentioned, and there are also non specific degree jobs. Personally, I'm interested in the navy, and MARS, although not at all CS specific, the math involved in earning a CS degree sounds like it would be an asset. I'm also hoping that CS is appropriate for a Naval Weapons System Engineer (it says "Engineering Degree or some science degrees" - and technically my CS is neither, but it is very closely linked to software engineering, and in many universities CS is a science degree (not at mine), plus in the job video it mentions software engineering being a specialty you can do later in your career - so I hope CS would be a good entry point into this career).

Anyways, I'm not in the military or anything, but from looking around, that's more or less what I've come to.


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## aesop081 (25 Aug 2007)

CivCanuck said:
			
		

> check out the CES (part of the DND)



You mean CSE - Comunications Security establishment

?


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## CivCanuck (25 Aug 2007)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> You mean CSE - Comunications Security establishment
> 
> ?


Right   Sorry, I make that mistake way too much. Thanks.


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## edgar (11 Sep 2007)

My belief is that the recruiting bumf calls for Computer Science, Physics, and etc, not because you need it for the job, but because people who are interested in that sort of thing are more likely to maintain an interest in the Signals world. My experience was in the Comm Reserve, but I understand that there are damn few jobs in signals where you actually use your science skills. People who do science for the army are cheaper in civvies.


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## PuckChaser (13 Sep 2007)

CivCanuck said:
			
		

> check out the CSE (part of the DND)



CSE isn't part of DND, they're 2 separate groups.

My current troop commander has a computer science degree, and is a Signals Officer. I have a computer networking diploma as an NCM, and it definately does help in the Signals field.


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## CivCanuck (18 Sep 2007)

SuperSlug said:
			
		

> CSE isn't part of DND, they're 2 separate groups.


I'm pretty sure I read on their site a couple years ago that they were a civilian branch of the DND (when trying to figure out the difference between the CSE and CSIS). Right now all I can find is that the Minister of National Defense is responsible for the CSE (which I'd take to mean they are part of the DND - although maybe I'm wrong in assuming this) (http://www.cse-cst.gc.ca/about-cse/place-in-gov-e.html)

If you accept a Wikipedia source (which I hate using, but this looks like it isn't just made up), it says "CSE was established in 1946 as the Communications Branch of the National Research Council, and was transferred to the Department of National Defence in 1975 by Order-in-Council. CSE is accountable to the Minister of National Defence through two deputy ministers, one of whom is responsible for Administration, the other Policy and Operations. The Minister of National Defence is in turn accountable to the Cabinet and Parliament." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Security_Establishment)


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## dapaterson (18 Sep 2007)

For more on the CSE, feel free to read the National Defence Act:

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cs/N-5/bo-ga:l_V_1/20070918/en?command=search&caller=SI&search_type=all&shorttitle=defence&day=18&month=9&year=2007&search_domain=cs&showall=L&statuteyear=all&lengthannual=50&length=50#anchorbo-ga:l_V_1

(sorry about the length of the link)


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