# CFB Borden Airshow 2008 - questions



## jzaidi1 (16 Jun 2008)

Hey folks,

CFB Borden's CF day is this Saturday and Sunday (June 21/22, 2008).  Just wondering several things:

- How many members here plan on attending? (http://www.borden.forces.gc.ca/998/5/5-25-eng.asp)
- Tips and tricks for getting seated in aircraft that isn't open to the public (ie. hanging out past closing, before opening)?
- Other things that are unique to the CF day in Borden that we should check out?
- Anyone here on the "inside" that could escort us/show us (army.ca members) the little 'extras' that the public don't normally see (ie. behind the scenes stuff)?
...AND...
- Acceptable dress and deportment when talking to on-site CF recruiters - I want to impress, and not look like I spent 8 hours on the beach (wearing sandles, ugly shorts, dirty t-shirts, sweaty face, etc...).  Any CF recruiters have any tips on how to approach you and what you are looking for in a potential candidate at these shows?

Thanks,
J


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## Loachman (16 Jun 2008)

I spend enough time in Borden, enough time around aircraft, enough time away from home, and there's not likely to be anything at this show that I have not seen before so it's highly likely that I'll bother - although there is going to be a Spitfire...

Suitable casual wear - ie shirt with collar, slacks rather than ratty jeans, and decent shoes - would satisfy recruiters, although they've probably seen pretty much anything. Remove major facial piercings, crazy glue the holes shut, and take a belt sander to any tattoos likely to be considered controversial.


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## WannaBeFlyer (16 Jun 2008)

> what you are looking for in a potential candidate at these shows?


Someone who would make a good Infanteer after thundering PFT. 

Just kidding. 

Have fun at the show and good luck!


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## jzaidi1 (17 Jun 2008)

Alright,

I'll be going up Sunday with wifey and my sis and her hubby.  Finally, a chance to show them what I "really" want to do for a living (Pilot MOC).  Hopefully it'll convince my wife that Pilot ain't so bad   I'm surprised she said yes to CF day in Borden actually...she didn't put up a fight or anything.

Anyway, I am thinking of going up Sat night but need some recommendations on motels/hotels/accomodations near or on CFB Borden.  Anyone?

Thanks,
J


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## PMedMoe (17 Jun 2008)

Borden Inn & Suites

Angus Inn

Both right on the main drag in Angus, next to the base.  IIRC, they have both been renovated recently.


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## Bandit1 (17 Jun 2008)

Fireball said:
			
		

> Hey folks,
> 
> CFB Borden's CF day is this Saturday and Sunday (June 21/22, 2008).  Just wondering several things:
> 
> ...



I'll be at the Media Day on Thursday and Friday and attending the air show both days.  As far as getting seated in a/c that aren't open to the public, there won't really be any.  They'll bring out the usual statics which will include a Hornet, Freedom Fighter, T-33, and a few Tutors which everyone will get seated in so chances are you'll have to wait in line like everyone else for your "hero" shot.  Other unique things to check out - while they're not unique to the CF, the RCMP Musical Ride is really neat to see and their precision is truly something to see if you've never experienced it before.  You'll also have access to almost all the hangers where there'll be plenty of information available about all the schools housed by CFB Borden.  My personal fave is the CFSATE display which will have a Hornet cockpit.  As for attire, I second what Loachman has suggested.  

As for which day - I'd suggest the Saturday to attend as the weather isn't looking great for Sunday.  But then again, it's happening rain or shine so...choose, but choose wisely...

Bandit


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## jzaidi1 (18 Jun 2008)

Looking at the weather network.  It'll be raining Sat and Sun this week in barrie/borden.  How would I get a Media or VIP pass not being part of any professional organization affiliated with the CF day at CFB Borden?  Feel free to PM me if you can hook me up.  What I will do is post a detailed account of my experience on Army.ca.

J

p.s Also - will there be anyone present I can talk to about joining the Air Reserves as an officer specifically at CFB Borden (interim solution on my way to becoming a Pilot)?  If so - what unit and who should I make contact with?


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## Bandit1 (18 Jun 2008)

It's only calling for a 40% chance each day and that is only scattered showers...I think you'll see a decent show even if the Snows have to perform a low or flat show.

As far as media goes - don't know as I'm accredited, but perhaps you could approach the admins on this site and run the idea by them?  

As for recruiting questions - I'd ask the folks from the Canadian Forces Recruiting Group who will be there and give them every last detail you can give and I'm certain they'll be able to assist you.

Bandit


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## jzaidi1 (19 Jun 2008)

The forecast changes day-by-day, sheesh...Sunday is now looking to be a slightly better day than Saturday.  I'd better bring some rain gear, groundsheets and porta-chairs (for my wife and sis).  I'm looking forward to it.  I haven't been on a base in a few years.

Would anyone know if our new CC-117s will be making a fly-past appearance? Also - will the CF-18 be taking off from Borden (exciting to watch) or are they being staged elsewhere?  If I remember correctly, Borden doesn't have the smoothest runway.

J


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## Bandit1 (19 Jun 2008)

I don't believe there will be a C-17 flyby - they're all tasked from what I've been told.  

Hornet and Snows will be housed and launched from Simcoe Regional Airport as the runway at Borden isn't completed as yet.

Hope this helps, and have a great time - pm me your cell number and I'll give you a shout to take some pics of you and your guests enjoying the show.

Cheers, 

Bandit


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## Loachman (19 Jun 2008)

Bandit1 said:
			
		

> the runway at Borden isn't completed as yet.



It's as completed as it's going to be for the foreseeable future.

It was condemned years ago.

It would take millions to rebuild, and there is no justification.

The base tried to use us as that justification when we moved north in 1996. I said "Sorry, we don't need one" more times than I could count.


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## Bandit1 (19 Jun 2008)

Loachman said:
			
		

> It's as completed as it's going to be for the foreseeable future.
> 
> It was condemned years ago.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the update Loachman - kinda sucks that it won't be rebuilt as it would make for some more hardware to come in but you're 100% right in that the place doesn't need one for the purposes the base is being used for now.


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## PMedMoe (19 Jun 2008)

Wish I could be there this weekend as I enjoyed a very entertaining show by the Snowbirds last night, right on my own back deck!!!


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## fire_guy686 (20 Jun 2008)

I'm lucky enough to be visiting the in-laws from Manitoba right now so I'll probably be out Saturday with the Wife and Youngster to check things out.


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## Bandit1 (20 Jun 2008)

Heading up there today, I'll be sure to post some pictures when I get in from the practices later today.

Cheers, Bandit


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## Bandit1 (20 Jun 2008)

As promised, here's a couple from today.  Some great stories developing here, and there'll be much to tell once the weekend is over.  His and hers Hornets story - it's this years demo pilot in the single seater and his wife in the two seater.

More photos uploaded to my site - here.

Bandit


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## Neon (22 Jun 2008)

What a great weekend! The weather was fairly kind and I think most people had a good time. Parking is a nightmare always but the traffic control today went much more smoothly - kudos to the organisers and the poor buggers on point duty and in the parking lots.
I have to say that there a lot of folk who could use a bit more respect though - the guys were doing their best last night to get people away from the Base after the show, but 15000 cars out of 2 exits takes time! The abuse I heard some drivers hurl at the guys on the points was unnecessary - it is to the credit of the young men and women on duty that they took it all with a smile and stayed helpful to the end. My parents were visiting and commented that all the troops were very polite and helpful - good on you! 
One of the coolest sights though was actually when the rain did hit - it was wall like a monsoon that marched down the old runway making the hot dry concrete shine in its wake - and then it hit us... pretty much ENDEX we thought, but out of nowhere the Snow Birds still managed to put on a low level show and were as amazing as ever. Yes, all in all a great weekend - now I want to sleep for a week!


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## jzaidi1 (23 Jun 2008)

Hi all,

First off - Bandit1, I just got your message about PMing you for pics.  I appreciate the offer but I'm about 1 day late.  I did go with my wife and I had a great time.  Borden's tarmac is in pieces but I don't think anyone cared.  I waited to sit in the Hornet for 45 minutes.  It was a tight squeeze only because the seat and pedals were adjusted to fit the little people (kids).  Skyhawks, Griffon, Hornet(s) and all other venues put on a good show despite the lighting striking only a few km away.  Rain, well it came and it went several times but most people didn't care.  I was standing by the first aid tent at one point when a baby arrived - looked like heat exhaustion.  The ambulance took the baby and the mother away somewhere - hope they are ok.

So - about CF recruiting.  Only spoke to one person there and they couldn't pinpoint someone to talk to from 16 Wing regarding Res Officer possibilities.  I went throughout the hangers and asked repeated CF members who should I be speaking with.  No one could come up with the right person on site.  Anyway - I'm not upset at all.  I just loved hanging around, asking questions and getting pictures taken.

Some pain points for the general public - the outhouses got disgusting real quick (didn't bother me though), there was a 45 min lineup for food at all stations at all times and leaving the parking lot was less than fun! Yes, leaving was a pain but I was very patient - but I heard people cursing and swearing out of their window at the soldiers in the orange vests.  That was a shame-those guys stood there all day and weren't paid much respect by some members of the public.  Regardless - I was back in Mississauga at a decent hour.  All in all - a great way to spend a Sunday.

J


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## observor 69 (23 Jun 2008)

NeonStrides said:
			
		

> What a great weekend! The weather was fairly kind and I think most people had a good time. Parking is a nightmare always but the traffic control today went much more smoothly - kudos to the organisers and the poor buggers on point duty and in the parking lots.
> I have to say that there a lot of folk who could use a bit more respect though - the guys were doing their best last night to get people away from the Base after the show, but 15000 cars out of 2 exits takes time! The abuse I heard some drivers hurl at the guys on the points was unnecessary - it is to the credit of the young men and women on duty that they took it all with a smile and stayed helpful to the end. My parents were visiting and commented that all the troops were very polite and helpful - good on you!
> One of the coolest sights though was actually when the rain did hit - it was wall like a monsoon that marched down the old runway making the hot dry concrete shine in its wake - and then it hit us... pretty much ENDEX we thought, but out of nowhere the Snow Birds still managed to put on a low level show and were as amazing as ever. Yes, all in all a great weekend - now I want to sleep for a week!



Ya 15000 reasons why at this late stage having been there done that I do most of my airshow viewing on my HI-Def TV.


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## timma (23 Jun 2008)

I was with the WWII  display in hangar 17 for both days. It was a pretty good airshow and there was lots to do , I especially enjoyed the mock FOB , it was very cool. The MP Judgmental simulator was also nice. Overall, a fun weekend.


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## PO2FinClk (23 Jun 2008)

Fireball said:
			
		

> So - about CF recruiting.  Only spoke to one person there and they couldn't pinpoint someone to talk to from 16 Wing regarding Res Officer possibilities.  I went throughout the hangers and asked repeated CF members who should I be speaking with.  No one could come up with the right person on site.  Anyway - I'm not upset at all.  I just loved hanging around, asking questions and getting pictures taken.


Not surprising as it would be safe to summise that those you saw in uniform were there working for the Air Show, or were ordered to attend to put uniforms on the ground, the vast majority of whom likely did not even work at 16 Wing. In either case they could not be expected to know whom within 16 Wing was the proper POC, whom was likely involved in the operations of the Air Show making them that much less available to the public. Short of seeing a Recruiting Display and talking to actual recruiters, I would not of expected to be too succesfull in that venture.


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## PO2FinClk (23 Jun 2008)

http://www.airforce.forces.ca/air_reserve/jobs/jobs_e.asp?cat=152&page=1
Found this link on the Borden Air Show website listing all Air Reserve employment oppurtunities in Ontario.


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## Loachman (23 Jun 2008)

These are just the Class B opportunities.


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## Neon (23 Jun 2008)

Fireball said:
			
		

> So - about CF recruiting.  Only spoke to one person there and they couldn't pinpoint someone to talk to from 16 Wing regarding Res Officer possibilities.  I went throughout the hangers and asked repeated CF members who should I be speaking with.  No one could come up with the right person on site.  Anyway - I'm not upset at all.  I just loved hanging around, asking questions and getting pictures taken.



The bus from CFRG (Recruiting Group) was just behind the Air Force Museum in the Hanger line - shame you missed them as they could have given you the advice you were looking for. Not sure where you are, but your local Recruiting Office can help if you want info and also put you in touch with a local unit. 16 Wing does have an Air Reserve cell too - I think there is a major there who might be able to help - try calling the Base on 705 424 1200 and asking the Operator to put you through to the 16 Wing Air Reserve Office (not sure exactly what it is called). Hope that helps.


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## jzaidi1 (24 Jun 2008)

Hi Neon,

I was actually at the bus and spoke with one of the recruiters - when I asked who I can speak with he didn't know but then asked all of his colleagues on duty who did not know either...Like the guy at the CFRC in Mississauga told me, the only way to know is to call 16 Wing directly - which I did but no response to my voicemail.  I didn't want to bug too much so I called a few more times and did not catch anyone live (this was a few weeks ago).

Anyway, I assume the process for Res Officer Pilot is same for Reg Force Pilot with exception that you have to be an accomplished CF or specialized Pilot to join the Reserves AS  A pilot.  I was hoping to get into IT or Personnel management as an Officer and CT over to Reg Pilot - one current CF Pilot told me that would be the best way to do it.

Any thoughts on that?

J


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## Loachman (24 Jun 2008)

The Air Militia is a small organization, and I am not sure that there will be many vacancies for anything, let alone something that you may consider interesting. 400 Squadron generally has a lengthy waiting list.

Everybody can benefit from time in the Combat Arms, though.

And I'm not being facetious.

One can learn much that will help one throughout one's career that one will not learn in any a** f**ce environment, and also develop a better understanding of those whom one will be supporting.


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## WannaBeFlyer (24 Jun 2008)

Loachman said:
			
		

> The Air Militia is a small organization, and I am not sure that there will be many vacancies for anything, let alone something that you may consider interesting. 400 Squadron generally has a lengthy waiting list.
> 
> Everybody can benefit from time in the Combat Arms, though.
> 
> ...



I looked into the Air Reserve Unit here, but unfortunately there wasn't much available. If there was, I would not be in the Infantry today. To my suprise, I actually love it. I have agree with Loachman: why not get back into the Reserves? I realize you have "been there, done that", but I think it would help your cause especially if you CT to the Regs.


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## jzaidi1 (24 Jun 2008)

Yes - I have been there and done that with respects to Combat Arms (I was Sigs Reserves but often loaned out to Infantry/Arty/Armoured).  I loved it - don't know if I have the taste for it again, although I am considering it as an option.  I'd probably go 709 Comm Sq in Toronto if I needed to jump in relatively quickly.  Options are there...

J


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## jzaidi1 (24 Jun 2008)

Quick question:

Is the CF-18 aircraft in Borden operational?  Meaning it's not meant to fly but can be taxiid by qualified people under it's own power?  I remember a Sgt doing this with a few of the Tutors stored there during my cadet Airframe course.

J


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## aesop081 (24 Jun 2008)

An aircraft can only be moved under the power of its own engine(s) by a qualified pilot.

Technicians must be properly qualified in order to do engine run-ups ( note that the aircraft does not move) and properly trained to be part of a tow crew.


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## Loachman (24 Jun 2008)

The F18 in Borden is a cosmetically-restored training aid only.

The Tutors were, until a few years ago, maintained to operational standards. They are still used to train techs how to marshal aircraft - and taxied about by non-pilot techs in the process of doing so. This is the only exception to the pilots-only-allowed-to-move-under-own-power rule in the entire CF of which I am aware.


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## Neon (24 Jun 2008)

Fireball said:
			
		

> Anyway, I assume the process for Res Officer Pilot is same for Reg Force Pilot with exception that you have to be an accomplished CF or specialized Pilot to join the Reserves AS  A pilot.  I was hoping to get into IT or Personnel management as an Officer and CT over to Reg Pilot - one current CF Pilot told me that would be the best way to do it.



Hi J

Not too sure about the Pilot aspect - best to check that out with an SME at the Recruiting Centre, but if you are interested in HR, then that is a Log Officer Specialty - along with Transport, Supply, Movements and Finance. As to joining the Reserves as a Log Officer and then CT to Pilot, why not see if you can go in as a Reg F Pilot directly. If you sit down with the Recruiters and bring your Resume and any Transcripts with you, you might find there is an entry plan that suits. For example ROTP (Regular Officer Training Plan) has an option for 'mature' applicants who may already have part of a degree programme done, there is also CEOTP - Continuing Education Officer Training Plan, which essentially gives you (I think) 8 years to complete your degree while continuing to serve as a Direct Entrant. I am not an expert on the details, but the guys at the CFRC should be able to explain all the available entry plans. If you were a Sig Op in the past you may well get a Recruit School Bypass too. Ask or go to the CFRG website to take a look at the monographs for each trade. Entry plans are covered there too. Good luck!


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## Loachman (24 Jun 2008)

There are two methods of becoming a reserve pilot: become a regular force pilot, rotary- or seized-wing, and CT, or apply for HELICOP (HELicopter Industry CO-operation Programme). For the latter, you will need a commercial helicopter licence, 500 hours minimum with a fair amount of that turbine time, and possibly an instrument rating. I cannot remember if that's necessary or not as we haven't had enrolled a HELICOP guy in Borden ever - we got the last two near the end of our Downsview days, ie thirteen to fifteen years ago.

Not a raving success, that programme. It was dreamed up by the same guy who shut down the Reserve Pilot Training Plan, which, by contrast, gave us three to four new pilots annually.


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## jzaidi1 (26 Jun 2008)

Ugh,

Hi Neon...I've been through the CEOTP options with CFRC and MANY members on this board.  I have some challenges I need to over come first (laser surg, start on degree, get in better shape are the main ones).  The backup plan is join the reserves as an officer and build more time-in and to CT over to Pilot MOC.

As for retirement age - I figure if I can get in at 34-35 years old (33 now) then I'll still have a good 25 years in the Airforce now the retirement age is 60.  By that time all the new planes coming online in the next few years will have to be replaced as well...

What's the Reserve Pilot Training Plan...never heard of it even years back when I first joined in 1992?

J


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