# To Gunner



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"dave newcombe" <davebo@seaside.net>* on *Mon, 13 Mar 2000 00:07:19 -0800*
One of my fondest memories of Cornwallis   7902, was of the constant,
unending barrage of " catchy and witty" phrases, that the instuctors used.
I don‘t think they ever repeated themselves, it was hard not to scream with
laughter, sometimes.   when they were directed at someone else.  Sgt.
Turnbull‘s best response to whinning recruits, was" Pain is no stranger to
an R.C.R. Ranger.   yes Sgt. Raskul, Canadian‘s can and do take the U.S.
Ranger course. They usually finish at the top of thier course too..  I
think the good Gunny studied in Canada.
I was of course referring to Sappers and Corporals, they were our course
"dogs bodies".  They were disgusted that they should have to babysit the
reserves, while the rest of the Regiment had block leave, and did Combat
Diver courses, and pre-airborne training.
As an side topic, you didn‘t happen to know Doug Leslie. Mwo, 5th RALC
Valcartier, among other positions and units.  He was an old family friend,
and gave me the boot in the butt, to go and join the C.A.F.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gunner" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2000 9:30 AM
Subject: To Dave Newcombe
> I can‘t remember Hollywood having that much of an impact on us in the
> 80s.  In terms
> of phrases, I always thought WOs and above must be taught "catchy and
> witty phrases"
> on their 6B crse because some of the comebacks from them were hilarious.
>
> I think the CF simply has an inferiority complex when it comes to sizing
> ourselves up
> to the worlds remaining superpower.  I worked with the US Army a fair
> amount in the mid
> 90s and as soon as we arrived or they arrived for that matter it
> seemed we tossed our
> terminology out the window ie the Ops O became the "3", and the Command
> Post Officer CPO
> became Fire Direction Officer, etc.  One week back in Canada and no-one
> used the
> US terminology again.
>
> I have to admit I was sucked into the Hollywood movies of the 80s
> Platoon, Full Metal Jacket,
> Siege at Fire Base Gloria, etc...there were too many good one liners
> not to use them.  I remember
> teaching a BMT crse at our Armoury and the instructors would watch the
> first hour of Full Metal Jacket to psych themselves up for the drill
> classes.  No we didn‘t go as far as Gunnery Sargeant Hartmen, however,
> the tps seem to like it.  It was different in the 80s but I don‘t
> remember the US culture dominating our
> terminology.
>
> Any other thoughts??
>
> Gunner sends.....
>
> dave newcombe wrote:
> >
> > As a Sgt. in a Militia squadron, training in Petewawa with members of 2
> > C.E.R., I was amazed at the amount of cathphrases the young Ncm‘s, used
> > during our classes and taskings.  Almost all of them came from Hollywood
> > interpretations of the American military, during the Vietnam war.  This
is
> > the attitude they brought with them on deployments.  I think they
started to
> > believe that‘s what soldiers did.  I don‘t think they had enough
experience
> > in reality, to base thier personna‘s on.  Was this epidemic in the
regular
> > Regts of the late 80‘s and early 90‘s, or was it a show for us reserve
force
> > personnel?  I wish I knew, but it colored my judgement on the Somalia
> > debacle and the leadership of the Forces as a whole.  at the NDHQ
level.
> > Your feedback is appreciated.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "william durrant" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2000 12:27 PM
> > Subject: to Gunner.
> >
> > > Gunner,
> > > I couldn‘t agree more.  No doubt SHARP  Diversity are annoying but I
have
> > > been brought up in the army amidst change, and I definitely feel
that we
> > > are better off than we were 10-15 yrs ago.  Canadian citizens are
slowly
> > > starting to see us as a professional organization, both valuable and
> > > required. In sharp contrast to the "babykillers" of yesteryear.
> > > Speaking of the changing role of Sr. NCO‘s.....Excerpt from pub
released
> > by
> > > the Directorate of Army Training........."In the "new technical army"
many
> > > Non-commissioned officers may be promoted mainly on their technical
skills
> > > and not because of traditional assessments of their performance as
leaders
> > > and disciplinarians.  Should the army propose a differentiation in
rank
> > > structure to identify those non-commissioned officers who are
primarily
> > > combat leaders and those who are primarily technicians?  If this is a
> > > serious matter, are there other ways to make the distinction?"
> > > Comments?
> > > PS...what‘s taking so long Raskul?  Researching?
> > > -bill
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Gunner 
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2000 2:42 PM
> > > Subject: Re: How can an American Join?
> > >
> > >
> > > > I disagree about your comments joining the Canadian Army.
> > > >
> > > > Eqpt.  I think the Canadian Army has come a long way
> > > > in addressing issues that arose from the 80s and early 90s.  By
2004,
> > > > the army will have
> > > > been re-eqpt with Bison, Coyote, LAV, LEAPC, Leo C2, Light Guns, new
> > > > CADPAT uniforms, gortex eqpt all of 1 CMBG has it with the
remaining
> > > > Res F,etc to get it shortly, and the list goes on.
> > > >
> > > > Leadership.  CF officers for all their perceived shortcomings are
> > > > extremely capable and adaptable.  They are trained at a high
standard
> > > > and their capabilities are well known to our allies.  I think we are
> > > > moving into a more fitting professional development profile that
will
> > > > benefit the CF in the future for example a degreed officer corps
and
> > > > further emphasis on operational training.  I do think the US takes
a
> > > > better approach to officer development.
> > > >
> > > > Sr NCOs.  I would doubt that anyone would argue that we produce some
of
> > > > the best NCOs in the world.  The difference between a US Sgt and a
> > > > Canadian Sgt are night and day.  However, as the senior levels ie
US
> > > > Sgt Major and Canadian MWO/CWO I think we haven‘t done enough to
> > > > prepare them for a modern Army.  For instance, US Sgt Major‘s go on
a
> > > > year long course in Fort Bliss to prepare them, their career
development
> > > > includes university accreditation, etc.  I don‘t think leaving the
> > > > "dress, drill and deportment" terms of reference for a CWO is fully
> > > > utilizing his talents.  At the same time, the CF has to provide
him/her
> > > > with the training.
> > > >
> > > > Soldiers.  Again, man for man, I think our soldiers are some of the
best
> > > > in the world.  I think we are going to have to revisit the idea that
> > > > soldiers have to be trained to be "all singing - all dancing" as
its‘
> > > > not cost effective.  But is US style soldier training the answer?  I
> > > > don‘t know, but it works for them, and our system is unaffordable.
> > > >
> > > > Pay - yes it‘s tough to raise a family on a Pte wage, however, it is
> > > > this way for all Canadians entering into their first job.  A soldier
> > > > with 8 years in is making approx $40K.  Is this unreasonable?  The
> > > > average family wage family of 4 is $55K.
> > > >
> > > > Anyway, we have/will have state of the art eqpt, our soldiers and
> > > > leaders are good, and pay is acceptable.  What‘s left to complain
about?
> > > >
> > > > Training - Anyone around in the 80s?  I remember being on exercise
from
> > > > 1 Mar - 15 Jun in Shilo and Wx.  Bivouac at the end of Casino Trail
in
> > > > Shilo.  Bivouac in Wx or Suffield with showers, sprawling modular,
> > > > satelitte TV, moview, rec runs in Wx proper, etc.  Was this an
efficient
> > > > use of resources.  Not really.  1 CMBG for the last couple of years
has
> > > > been focussed on short, focused exercises with a definite aim.  Yes,
> > > > there are a variety of reasons for it, however, I think we are
getting
> > > > more bang for our buck now, and soldiers, are sitting in bivouacs,
less.
> > > >
> > > > Gender Equity/SHARP/Diversity - Ah, the bane of our existence, to
some.
> > > > However, I think the military needed to to be brought into the 21st
> > > > century I know, not til next yr.  For the most of us, it wasn‘t
that
> > > > big an issue, however, systemically, we did not deal with those
> > > > soldiers, NCOs and officers who didn‘t like women, blacks, asians,
> > > > reservists, regulars, etc.  Quite simply we failed to enforce our
own
> > > > policies and the sensationalistic stories from MacLeans‘, Somalia,
> > > > Bakovici, etc were our failures - THE MEDIA DIDN‘T INVENT THEM.
When
> > > > the traveling roadshows for these prgms came to brief us, most of us
> > > > said "OK, I understood it the first time, the tenth time is now
> > > > annoying." The trouble is employment equity, etc has now become
> > > > bueaurcatically entrenched in NDHQ and it is suffering from serious
> > > > mission creep.  But really, this issue doesn‘t effect the soldier on
the
> > > > ground.
> > > >
> > > > Operations - Yes, we are more heavily tasked then at any time since
> > > > Korea.  However, part of our "job" is to go overseas and I think we
are
> > > > affected by poor management, vice, not enough soldiers.  Let‘s say
we
> > > > are depl approx 7K pers overseas each year once Kosovo is finished,
it
> > > > will be alot less.  Our military is 60K, the amount overseas is
less
> > > > then 15 each year.  The problem is, it is mostly drawn from one
> > > > source..the army. To alleviate this the CDS has to look at how the
CF is
> > > > structured and utilized.  Increased reliance on ASD for ac, supply,
> > > > etc.  Increased reliance on the Reserves could start by a multiyear
> > > > revitalization!.  Quite honestly, I think the Army owes it‘s
existence
> > > > and reeqpt to peacekeeping right now.  The army is at fault as well
for
> > > > allowing Regt politics to play in who and what are sent overseas ie
1HA
> > > > has not been anywhere since 92 Cyprus, and rotations overseas are
bearly
> > > > meeting the mandated 20 res augmentation - 2 PPCLI in its heyday
depl
> > > > with 50.  I don‘t know if this is true, but someone recently said
we
> > > > have 1200 MPs in a CF of 60K...does this make sense?  1 MP for every
49
> > > > CF members?  Thats alot of speed traps that could be better used as
> > > > bayonets.
> > > >
> > > > I think our major problem is termed "Change Fatigue", inthat, we
have
> > > > come through so much and come so far in the last decade that we are
> > > > unsure of the system we have in place.  It‘s easy to complain about
how
> > > > we percieve the environment around us, however, if we look back with
a
> > > > dispassionate eye, I think we are better now then in the 80s.
> > > >
> > > > I think we‘ve come along way.  Any comments?
> > > >
> > > > Gunner sends......
> > > >
> > > > John Dillon wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >   Dear John,
> > > > > I was reading your message about wanting to join the canadian army
and
> > > was
> > > > > rather shocked as to why an americain would want to join.  I‘m not
> > > putting
> > > > > you down by any means it is just that the americain military has a
lot
> > > more
> > > > > to offer than the canadian.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is true that a canadian soldier has about 3 times the amount of
> > > training
> > > > > as an americain but there are terrible draw backs.
> > > > >
> > > > > First and fore most the pay.  americain soldiers are paid much
more
> > than
> > > > > canadian.  Some canadian soldiers had to take their families to
soup
> > > > > kitchens to be able to feed them.  Recent pay raises have somewhat
> > > dimmed
> > > > > that problem but they‘re not totally abolished.
> > > > >
> > > > > Secondly the canadian military is becoming to too dangerous.  Our
> > > soldiers
> > > > > are not allowed to use land mines at all, making it more difficult
to
> > > defend
> > > > > against silent advancing enemys.  Our soldiers hand pistols were
all
> > > taken
> > > > > away due to logistical problems.  Personal Equipment hasn‘t been
> > updated
> > > > > since the 1960‘s and isn‘t going to be issued until 2002.  The
once
> > > world
> > > > > renowed air-bourne has been cut back to 3 small support companies
and
> > > rumor
> > > > > from a few connections w the military say it will be totally
abolished
> > > next
> > > > > year.  Also, think numbers.  They always say saftey in numbers and
> > that
> > > is
> > > > > not what the military has.  Recent reg force counts peg the
infantry
> > at
> > > a
> > > > > round 5000 plus maybe 5000 reserves.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you are looking for great training, extremely compatant
leadership,
> > > and a
> > > > > well equiped military i would recomend the british.  But if i were
you
> > > i‘d
> > > > > keep away from the canadian rusting military.
> > > > >
> > > > >     JOHN!!!
> > > > >
> > > > > >From: "John Gilmour" 
> > > > > >Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > > > >To: 
> > > > > >Subject: Re: How can an American Join?
> > > > > >Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 09:19:37 -0500
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Yeah you have to become a Canadian citizen !
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > > > >From: Rob Kobold 
> > > > > >To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
> > > > > >Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 1:08 AM
> > > > > >Subject: How can an American Join?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >I have a quick question,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Is it possible, and if so how, for an American to join
> > > > > > >the Canadian Army.  I was in the American Army and I
> > > > > > >met a lot of Canadians, but when I tried getting info
> > > > > > >about joining your army off the web it didn‘t seem
> > > > > > >likely.  Does anyone know any Americans who have done
> > > > > > >it, and if so, How????
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Thanks,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Rob Kobold
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >====
> > > > > > >"Language is a poor enough means of communication, I think we
> > should
> > > use
> > > > > >every damn word we‘ve got"
> > > > > > >Henry Drummond Spencer Tracey, on profanity, "Inherit the
Wind"
> > > > > > >Thank you for writing me, it gets lonely at the top. Please
write
> > > again,
> > > > > >and, VOTE GREEN!!!!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >__________________________________________________
> > > > > > >Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > > > >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> > > > > > >http://im.yahoo.com
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