# A cross to bear



## Slim (16 Nov 2004)

A cross to bear

*MILITARY PLAN TO REMOVE CHAPLAIN SYMBOL RIPPED*

By BILL RODGERS, OTTAWA BUREAU CHIEF

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/News/2004/11/16/716367.html

THE MILITARY plans to remove the Maltese Cross from the caps of its chaplains. The Defence Department, which hired its first Muslim chaplain a year ago, says it's time the military reflected Canada's multi-faith society. 

"We are looking at seeing what developments there could be in that field because, to have a Muslim or to have someone of another faith under that same cap badge -- I think it wouldn't be of service to them," Chaplain Jean Bourgeois said yesterday. 

MAJORITY ARE CHRISTIAN 

Bourgeois admits, however, the majority of men and women in the services today identify themselves as Christians, but added the cadet corps in the Toronto-area are already seeing "a lot more Muslims ... and a lot more Buddhists." 

Talks to replace the Maltese Cross, a Christian symbol that dates back to the Crusades, have been going on inside the military for about two years. 

"We've asked the chaplains of our branch and we've asked other people to help us in this field. We haven't come up with anything (to replace the cross)," Bourgeois said. 

Plans to replace the cross with both a branch and denominational insignia brought a harsh response from an Alberta Tory MP Jason Kenney. 

"I think that's ridiculous. It's typical political correctness," he said. 

"Pluralism doesn't mean you eliminate symbols for every different community. It means you respect all the different symbols, whether it's the Star of David for a Jewish chaplain or a (crescent) for a Muslim chaplain." 

ISN'T BUYING IT 

The chairman of the Commons defence committee, Pat O'Brien, said he's going to want to hear some justification for the planned change and isn't buying the multi-faith nature of society as a good reason. 

"I think we can carry that a little bit too far. Why shouldn't you be able to embrace your own religious symbols?" said O'Brien. 

The London MP said he'll keep an open mind on the issue and expects it will be discussed at his Commons committee before a final decision is made by the military.


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## pbi (16 Nov 2004)

Why should a rabbi or an imam be forced to serve under a Christian symbol? It would make no sense whatsoever to recruit them in that capacity then have them wear the wrong insignia. We'd sure hear some squealing if it was the other way around! I suggest a  CF badge with appropriate faith identifiers such as collar insignia, as the US Army does, might be much better. Cheers.


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## Burrows (16 Nov 2004)

Yeah like PBI and the mp suggested about multi culturized capbadges that identify religion..


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## pbi (16 Nov 2004)

Burrows said:
			
		

> Yeah like PBI and the mp suggested about multi culturized capbadges that identify religion..



Well.....that wasn't actually what I meant. What I meant was a "neutral" capbadge, with OTHER appropriate insignia such as faith-identifier collar dogs.  Cheers.


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## Guardian (16 Nov 2004)

A buddy of mine suggested that the chaplains adopt the Wal-Mart yellow happy face...

The New Chaplain Branch Badge -  

Seriously, though, I think the chaplains should keep the current badge for Christian padres (and for the sake of tradition). Muslim and Jewish padres could wear similar badges but with the cross removed in favour of a crescent & star / Star of David....

After all, in other branches / regiments NCM cap badges have always been different than those of officers (cloth vs. metal, silver vs. brass, etc.) The chaplains don't have NCMs, so why not allow a little variation within their branch on that basis instead?

Having a badge that tried to reflect all the different faiths is doomed to failure. Either make it neutral (no religious symbols) or have each faith group in the chaplaincy wear their own symbol.


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## bossi (16 Nov 2004)

An classic example of Pandora's Box, if I ever saw one.

How about a Maple Leaf - after all, we're all Canadians, eh?
(oh, I forgot - in another forum, a soldier said he thought of himself as something else ... okay - apparently we're not all Canadians).

On one hand, I know padres/chaplains try to look after everybody, no matter what their faith.
However, I guess the real litmus test lies with the soldiers - would a soldier of one faith be willing to open up to a chaplain of another faith (and, without naming names and starting a stupid flame war, I'm suggesting some religions rub each other the wrong way ... enough said).  Thus, I'm not so sure we want to start "pigeon-holing" chaplains by openly labelling them as one religion or another.

Yup - a neutral emblem is probably going to be difficult (especially when you include agnostics, atheists, Druids, etc.)
Yah know - how about a "helping hand"?
We're all human, last time I checked ...


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## winchable (16 Nov 2004)

The neutral one seems to make sense to me?

When I've met chaplins outside of a church they could've easily been of any faith.
But obviously you can't have Imam's performing Catholic mass so there has to be something in place to prevent that from happening.


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## Fishbone Jones (16 Nov 2004)

I'm glad there's nothing more pressing in NDHQ for the low shoe guys to do. Like get our raise, fix the recruiting system, get enough kit for everyone, hold proper, non political, user trials on equipment by guys that use it, find the new soldiers to replace the ones who leave in droves over the next two years....I could go on, but I could also go to the edge of the world and scream for all the good it would do.

Padres take care of everyone, by agreement. I doubt you'll forgo your last rites because the Padre isn't of your faith, chances are you won't even know it. Our Sky Pilots are good at what they do.


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## bossi (16 Nov 2004)

Che said:
			
		

> But obviously you can't have Imam's performing Catholic mass so there has to be something in place to prevent that from happening.



Somehow I don't think a cap badge or collar dog is the definitive failsafe mechanism ...
(i.e.Obviously I trust the chaplains/Imams/padres/rabbis will "take care of business" ...)

Besides - what's wrong with ecumenical services ... or an ecumenical insignia?
Do we really want to drive a wedge between fellow soldiers?


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## Brad Sallows (16 Nov 2004)

Oh, goody.  Can we set up a betting pool on how long it will be before some devoutly religious soldier objects to the presence of an icon of an animal (eg. stag, beaver, ram) on the regimental badge?


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## winchable (16 Nov 2004)

> Somehow I don't think a cap badge or collar dog is the definitive failsafe mechanism ...



No, I wasn't trying to suggest that it was either.



> Besides - what's wrong with ecumenical services ... or an ecumenical insignia?



Nothing if you're Christian.



> Do we really want to drive a wedge between fellow soldiers?



I would think that having a non-denominational Chaplin's insignia would do more to promote unity than having a bunch of seperate ones?


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## bossi (16 Nov 2004)

Che said:
			
		

> Nothing if you're Christian.



Damn it all to heck (chuckle) - I forgot ecumenical didn't include EVERYBODY
(geez - it wasn't that long ago that getting Micks and Proddies under one roof was a big deal ...)

Okay - replace "ecumenical" with whatever the word is for "different religions worshipping together in peace" (as opposed to preaching non-tolerance of other religions).


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## winchable (16 Nov 2004)

Oh, so we agree.
Sort of...I'd be open to the idea but it seems like it would be extremely difficult, bordering creating a new religion?


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## bossi (16 Nov 2004)

There's an old joke about the one and only soldier of a particular religion in a regiment.
Regimental church parade was rotated amongst the religions of the regiment (i.e. back then, there weren't as many as today ... chuckle).
Thus, on one Sunday, the regimental band would form up, and march to the Catholic church
(non-Catholic soldiers would attend, because their Catholic friends were going).
The next Sunday, they'd form up and march to the Protestant church.
(non-Protestant soldiers would attend, because their Catholic friends were going).
Etc.

And so, the soldier goes to the padre and says he wants to change religions 
(to one of the mainstream ones).
"Hallelujah" says the padre, "What has made you see the light?"
"Nothing" replies the soldier, "I'm just tired of being the only one on parade while the others sleep in."



			
				Che said:
			
		

> I'd be open to the idea but it seems like it would be extremely difficult, bordering creating a new religion?



Nope - it's much simpler than that - personally I enjoy the honour of being invited and welcomed by friends to their place of worship (e.g. for weddings, religious celebrations).

Since one of the cornerstones of non-tolerance is a requisite lack of understanding of the other side, it's a positive step in the right direction to show each other the similarities (e.g. last time I checked, most of us still bleed red), or even to develop an appreciation (and healthy respect) for the differences.

So, when I'm in charge, we'll go to the Regimental church on the occasion of the Regimental birthday, and when we're on exercise in the field we'll invite chaplains/Imams/padres/rabbis/whatever in order to develop a better understanding of the cultures we often encounter while on missions, with a view to reminding all of us that a healthy streak of humanity isn't limited to only their religion.

Here endeth my sermon (for now).


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## dutchie (16 Nov 2004)

Sorry I'm jumping into this thread kinda late, but I'd like to add my 2 cents......

I, like pbi and others, favor a non-denominatinal cap badge, accompanied by collar dogs with the appropriate religious symbol on DEUs and the current cross, star, crescent, etc on combats. I don't see how removing the maltese cross from the cap badge reduces the effectiveness of a Christian Padre. However, I do see how having that cross might prevent a Muslim, Jewish, or other faith soldier form approaching that Padre (or Imam, Rabbi, etc). This might be especially confusing for a young troop, unaware of what Chaplains, Padres, etc actually do besides conduct religous ceremonies.

Our Forces are well beyond the age where we can assume that the vast majority of soldiers will be of Christian faith. It seems the CF has started to embrace different faiths and changing the badge is just another way they can make it a level playing field....religion wise that is.

My 2 cents.


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## Infanteer (16 Nov 2004)

How about a dignified looking book on the capbadge.   All the major faiths of the world seem to draw their dogma from scriptures which are regarded as sacred.   Perhaps a book would signify the central role of the Bible, the Torah, the Qu'ran, the Bhagavad Gita, etc, etc.

Just an idea.


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## pbi (17 Nov 2004)

I would like to stake out my ground here by saying that I'm an Anglican (High Church and all that...) grandson of an Archdeacon of the Church of England, and married to a devout RC. Just so I 'm not accused of being agnostic, atheist,  Satanist, or, worst of all, politically correct.

My worry is not so much what the soldier in search of spiritual solace will think (they already go across faith lines now to get help...) 'm worried about forcing a clergyman to wear the wrong bloody badge, that's all. Cheers.


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## Heatwave (17 Nov 2004)

The forces need to stop using padres as cheap substitutes for social workers and make junior officers develop the counselling skills that are supposed to be part of their jobs. It is too easy to "send him to the padre" and make him someone else's problem. For truly serious problems, professional social workers or psychologists should be available. This isn't the 17th century anymore.

SigPig...I find this paragraph quite interesting.   So much so, I wouldn't know where to start to respond to   it (brain overloaded with potential input after I read it :-\).   Have you thought of making a separate thread?   I can see the potential for a separate thread for each of your 1st three sentences in this para, with a little rewording.   Just a thought.

Chimo!


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## brin11 (17 Nov 2004)

SigPig, I have split this topic off to its own thread as Heatwave suggested.   I totally agree that this topic should have its own thread to incite more discussion.


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## Bograt (17 Nov 2004)

Just a simple question along the same lines of pluralism and tolerance within the CF. Are Sheik members of the CF allowed to wear their traditional head dress, facial hair and ceremonial daggers?

Unfortunately it is difficult to publically raise these sorts of questions in Canada because one is too often labled as intolerant or racist. There comes a time however where the search for sterile political correctness becomes ridiculous. Soon, some will suggest changes to the national anthem because of its reference to God. 

When did the Canadian Armed Forces become the Canadian Forces? What was the rationale? Was it because it is less offensive and more aligned with our liberal sensibilities?

Does this issue of a hat badge really deserve serious consideration? What about the squadron badges used by aircrew. I have seen 407 badges with a trident piercing a sub. What if a segment of the population didn't like the reference to Poseidon. How about ol crow badges that show an illustrated crow drinking a beer upside down. Does this send a bad message promoting irresponsible alcohol use?
Come on.


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## dutchie (17 Nov 2004)

Sikh members do wear turbans (a member of the local BCRs is a sikh), don't know about the daggers...

I don't see this as one of those ridiculous pc movement initiatives, just common sense and progress. Our society is am immigrant one, and as such, we have a very diverse religious mosaic in the CF. That was not always the case. Conversly, if we went the other way in the future, and through natural means we no longer had any siginificant numbers of non-Christian troops and Chaplains, slapping the Maltese Cross on their headress would be ok. The cap badge should reflect ALL chaplains, not just Christian ones.

The issue of the Canadian National anthem amendment to remove 'God' was already put forth ny some NDP backbencher a few years ago....possiblt Svend 'Sticky Fingers' Robinson? Can't remember. It didn;t go anywhere, IIRC.


As far as the Canadian Forces dropping the 'Armed', don;t know ehen that happended either, prior to '97 for sure. I don't think it matters one bit though. I think we know we are armed.

Comparing the conflict of having a cross on a Muslim Imams headress to soem nut objecting to gratuitous usage of Poseidon is not really fair. Ditto for the other comarisons. The plain fact is that Chaplains are no longer just Christians, they are Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, etc, and as such, shouldn't be forcd to wear the religious symbol of another faith.


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## Marauder (17 Nov 2004)

It always kills me to see people arguing over the invisible guy in the sky. It smacks (comicaly or tragi-comicaly, depending on circumstances) of "My Dad could kick your Dad's ass, neener neener!!"

Of all the chaplains I have intereacted with, they have all seemed to be kind, compassionate officers who were only interested in my welfare and moral. I have never had a chaplain try to preach at me or convert me over the "right" side.
IMO, chaplains are more than just the guy to have droning at the pulpit every Sunday morning. I don't care if they are RC, Anglican, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Jewish, or Islamic. So long as they are supporting the soldier as best they can, what more do people want??


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## Bograt (17 Nov 2004)

Good rebuttal Caesar. It was well thought out and nicely articulated.

My disjointed rant perhaps illustrates some of my own blemishes. The change of the badge is not an issue for me. I have an issue with what I see is the absurdity of political correctness and the length some go to triumph it.

I do not want to hijack this topic with discussions of multiculturalism. The concept is a fantastic idea, however the reality as I see it is we are becoming a nation of clusters not cultures. As we chip away at tradition under the guise of accommodation we are beginning to loose my concept of Canada. 

Cheers,


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## Infanteer (17 Nov 2004)

I really don't see this as an attempt at political correctness.


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## winchable (17 Nov 2004)

An attempt at political correctness would be getting rid of the Chaplaincy all together because the term Chaplain offends those who do not go to Chapel.
Or renaming the Chaplain's something like: "Spiritual Guidance Officers" so as not to offend.

If anything this is more or less saying "hey, there are people who are religious in the CF and not all of them are Christian, maybe we should acknowledge this by providing them with the same spiritual guidance that everyone else is given."


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## Johnny Canuck (20 Nov 2004)

From The Scotsman, 23 October 2004

Interestingly- from another forum on this site came the info below.. Now allowing THIS kinda thing   is really taking political correctness perhaps a little too far..(Dont wanna say anything too nasty..never know about these kinda guys     >) 'course he could be assinged to "special forces" harhar-- perhaps simply putting a curse on enemies like Osama etc.. would save a vast amount of time money and effort. har


Navy Technician Becomes Services' First Satanist 
By Rachel Williams, PA News 
A Royal Navy non-commissioned officer has become the first registered Satanist in the British Armed Forces, it emerged tonight.
Naval technician Chris Cranmer has been officially recognised as a Satanist by the captain of HMS Cumberland, meaning he will be allowed to perform Satanic rituals on board.
He is now reportedly lobbying the Ministry of Defence to make Satanism a registered religion in the Armed Forces, although an MoD spokesman said it was not aware of any approach about the issue.
Ldg Hand Cranmer, 24, is from Edinburgh and has been in the Navy for four years, according to the Sunday Telegraph.

He was promoted leading hand â â€œ the naval equivalent of corporal â â€œ in July last year.

He told the paper he realised he was a Satanist nine years ago when he â Å“stumbled acrossâ ? a copy of the Satanic Bible â â€œ written by Church of Satan founder Anton Szandor LaVey.


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## NavyGrunt (20 Nov 2004)

Im not known for my "accepting" attitudes. But I really think that IF we are going to have chaplains of different faiths then yes we should have a neutral cap badge and collar dogs. It seems like a stupid thing to get upset about.  I couldnt care less about other peoples religions- they have the right to practise and join the forces so they should have the right to speak to someone they are comfortable with. And I wouldnt be comfortable being told to wear a crescent moon so I give the same respect to them- EVEN if I dont agree with there beliefs.Hich I dont  ;D


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## Pugnacious (21 Nov 2004)

Hmmm I have to say I personally have Zero respect for any person who claims to be a Satanist, and seriously doubt that they would be interested in being  a Chaplin anyway, or that it would ever be allowed in the Canadian forces in the capacity as a Chaplain as the mentaly deranged doctrine of Satanism goes against everything one would want in such an important role that values compassion, empathy, and kindness.  

Also personally I think the person under the cap is more important then the shape of the badge they wear.
Being a Wiccan I'd be happy to partake in any religious service that helped my peers or myself (exept Satanism).

Cheers!
P.


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## Infanteer (21 Nov 2004)

So, no one liked my idea of the Book for a capbadge then.... :-\


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## pbi (22 Nov 2004)

I did. Cheers.


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## bossi (22 Nov 2004)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> So, no one liked my idea of the Book for a capbadge then.... :-\



It's impossible to please everybody ... (as I realised immediately after I suggested "helping hands", which wouldn't go over well with some people).

As for a book, I can imagine the constitutional challenge/lawsuit by the Royal Corps Of Librarians, as well as those who follow scrolls instead of books ...


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## Shec (22 Nov 2004)

Who was it that wrote "he who forgets history is doomed to repeat it."?

In WW2 Jewish Chaplains were issued a Chaplain Corps cap badge with the a Star of David instead of a Maltese Cross  in the centre.  It worked.  So what's the big deal?  The model is there - the same can be done for other faiths.   Haven't the planners got more pressing priorities to worry about?


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