# CAF Pilots: Flying for Recreation



## Vell (29 Jun 2014)

I apologize if these questions have already been answered, but Google and the search function on this site have failed me (using 'private license CAF' just gives me hits for people that already have a private license and want to join the CAF).

I was just wondering, what kind of license do CAF pilots actually have? What upgrades are available to it and are any of these licenses usable outside of the military and in what ways? I assume that you are not really a 'pilot' in the CAF until/if you actually receive your wings (after phase 3 training?) despite that you are already flying on your own by the end of phase 1 (if I am correct). Does the license you receive in the CAF permit you to fly an aircraft privately? Pilot pay is fairly good so I would assume at least some CAF pilots have their own/rent small aircraft (like a little 4-6 seater Cessna). If the military license does not give access to flying private aircraft, do these pilots have to go through civilian training just like anyone else despite their considerably more intense training and logged hours?

Perhaps I am just naive, but I ask these question for on the slim chance I ever made it all the way to pilot, I think I would quite enjoy flying around with my family and friends privately when I am not at work (much faster than driving, fun, it never hurts to log a few more hours flying, and no traffic).

Background info: These questions are coming from a pilot applicant with no more flying experience than a few flights with a buddy who is a pilot (doing no more than holding the aircraft steady), and some basic familiarization with flying concepts through some studying of the book 'From the Ground Up' and a little practice on MS Flight Simulator (When/if I get to ACS, I want to at least be able to understand the terminology and what the instruments do). I initially applied as ATIS and AVS, but thought 'what the heck, may as well see if I have what it takes to be a pilot' and decided to try for pilot first (changed my application to DEO Pilot).


----------



## a.schamb (29 Jun 2014)

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/regserv/cars/part4-standards-421-1086.htm 

This is the relevant section of the CARs, in it you will see credits that DND personnel receive when applying for certain types of Transport Canada pilot licenses.


----------



## bradley247 (29 Jun 2014)

RCAF pilot don't hold a pilots license, all they have is a rating that allows them to fly military aircraft only. Their training and standards are totally independent from Transport Canada.

That being said, Transport Canada does consider military pilot training to meet some of the requirements for pilots licenses, but military pilot training will not satisfy the minimum hour requirements established by Transport Canada for a PPL or a CPL. You will either need to wait until you get those hours in the course of your job, or go rent an airplane to build those hours.

And yes, some RCAF pilots fly outside of work, some even have their own airplanes.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/regserv/cars/part4-standards-421-1086.htm


----------



## Vell (29 Jun 2014)

Thanks a lot for the info and links. It was some pretty heavy reading but what I took away was that:

Ground school, the written exam and the skill requirement are considered met so long as the CAF member has obtained their wings, logged an insignificant amount of hours in the past 12 months (if I made it to pilot and flew less than the approximately 10 required hours in 12 months I would be quite disappointed) and also passed an additional written test depending on what kind of private license they want.

In more simple term: Write a test and fly a few hours with your wings in the CAF and you are good to go on your private license. Nothing too complicated.

It would seem that transport Canada does recognize military pilots as highly trained experts and that in fact a lot of military experiences waive even many commercial pilot requirements should you have had training / logged hours in an aircraft appropriate to the kind of non-military license you want to obtain.


----------



## bradley247 (29 Jun 2014)

Don't forget about this: "the applicant has met the flight time requirements specified in subsection (4)"

Military pilot training does not satisfy those requirements. You will be short solo time and solo cross country time for a PPL, and solo time, PIC time, night time and cross country time for a CPL. It could take years to get those hours (since in most aircraft you start off as a first officer), so most guys who choose to pursue it just rent a plane on their own to get them.


----------



## Vell (29 Jun 2014)

Do the CAF pilots usually have better connections to have access to private aircraft in order to log hours for areas not covered in the CAF (Like easy access to friends with aircraft, connections to ex-CAF members in the civilian flying world or discounts at flying schools and for rentals). I would assume that more than just a few CAF pilots take an interest in obtaining their private license.


----------



## SupersonicMax (29 Jun 2014)

Once you start flying for your work, your desire to pay for hours decreases, especially when it's 150$/hr and you make 450$ a day gross.


----------



## Vell (30 Jun 2014)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Once you start flying for your work, your desire to pay for hours decreases, especially when it's 150$/hr and you make 450$ a day gross.



Exactly what I would expect, which is why I wonder if CAF members get those flying hours for a private license in more creative 'cheaper' ways than most civilians have access to. Not having to pay for much of the training is a big plus financially, but renting an aircraft is still as you say, quite expensive.


----------



## SupersonicMax (30 Jun 2014)

I have 0 desire to go out and fly a clapped out 172 after coming back from a training mission in my Hornet.  

No, you don't generally get discounts.


----------



## Loachman (30 Jun 2014)

Vell said:
			
		

> more creative 'cheaper' ways than most civilians have access to.



Yes.

We get paid to do it.

It doesn't get much better.


----------



## Zoomie (30 Jun 2014)

I tried go back and fly a Cessna - got old pretty fast.  Call me a snob - but I enjoy flying machines with decent power/thrust available.


----------



## observor 69 (30 Jun 2014)

In the "olden days" many bases had flying clubs. And yes there were many advantages to this situation, cheap hanger space, access to some base technical support official or otherwise. My personal experience was in CFB Summerside where all this applied. I also recall a number of military pilots going over to Moncton to get their ATR ticket.
But I believe this happy situation has ended with DND kicking flying clubs off the bases.


----------



## Vell (30 Jun 2014)

Baden Guy said:
			
		

> In the "olden days" many bases had flying clubs. And yes there were many advantages to this situation, cheap hanger space, access to some base technical support official or otherwise. My personal experience was in CFB Summerside where all this applied. I also recall a number of military pilots going over to Moncton to get their ATR ticket.
> But I believe this happy situation has ended with DND kicking flying clubs off the bases.



That is a pity, it sounds like it was a nice thing not only for CAF pilots. It seems some pilots here have very little interest in flying privately (why drive a beater after driving a formula 1 race car) but I thought a private license could be very practical as well. I have a wife, two children and family all across Canada, the US and overseas as well. While small aircraft cannot fly overseas, I though it may be cheaper (and definitely faster) for the whole family to fly in a small private aircraft around Canada especially. Of course, unless we flew often enough, commercial flights are likely cheaper but you can't just board a commercial flight whenever you feel like it either (then again, weather conditions are much more restrictive for small low power aircraft).


----------



## SupersonicMax (30 Jun 2014)

At 150$ an hour, it is NOT cheaper to fly across Canada (and back) and you are at the mercy of the weather.  Travelling with a small plane is for people that are in absolutely no rush.  Not worth the hassle.


----------



## MAJONES (1 Jul 2014)

If you are looking for cheap time to build hours towards a commercial it is possible to buy block time on private aircraft.  Look on avcanada.ca, COPA trade a plane, or on the bulletin board in the local flying club.  Note, under the CARs you can't take dual instruction towards a PPL on someone else's aircraft, (unless they hold an FTU OC).


----------



## shogun506 (9 Feb 2015)

I'm about to graduate phase II here in Moose Jaw (weathered out for my formation test again) and have chosen to go the helicopter path. Having gotten all of this fixed-wing time I'd like to get some type of license with it if possible before moving on. I have about 120 military hours as follows: 17 Grob Dual + .4 solo and about 96 Harvard + 7.4 solo. I've never flown any civilian hours. There are a lot of guys here with PPLs and CPLs and I know from what they say that the flying we do is way overkill for a regular license (aerobatics, form flying, low level nav, IFR etc), but it looks like there are some cross-country and solo time requirements to contend with. Does this time translate directly as dual and solo time or are there bonuses or problems associated with military into civilian time?


----------



## Zoomie (9 Feb 2015)

You can probably count a few of those hours towards a PPL - you will need to get with a civy flying school and see what their CFI says.  You will need to jump through all the necessary hoops.  However - if you wait until you finish your Phase 3 Helo - you will be able to convert that training into a CPL (H) without any further skills training - just proof of Wings Grad.

I surprised you only did 0.4 solo on the Grob.


----------



## rotrhed (10 Feb 2015)

Watchdog-1 said:
			
		

> I'm about to graduate phase II here in Moose Jaw (weathered out for my formation test again) and have chosen to go the helicopter path. Having gotten all of this fixed-wing time I'd like to get some type of license with it if possible before moving on. I have about 120 military hours as follows: 17 Grob Dual + .4 solo and about 96 Harvard + 7.4 solo. I've never flown any civilian hours. There are a lot of guys here with PPLs and CPLs and I know from what they say that the flying we do is way overkill for a regular license (aerobatics, form flying, low level nav, IFR etc), but it looks like there are some cross-country and solo time requirements to contend with. Does this time translate directly as dual and solo time or are there bonuses or problems associated with military into civilian time?



Years ago, I went the rotary route with a similar amount of hours on the Musketeer and Tutor. After a few years of flying the Sea King, I scraped up some money and showed up at the (now-extinct) Shearwater Flying Club. As a CF-winged pilot, I met all of the requirements for experience but lacked fixed wing cross country time and 10 hrs fixed wing in the last 12 months (it's all in the CARs). I wrote the Radio Operators exam and Student Pilots License exam in house and along with a valid medical, I became legal to fly solo as a student. After 4-5hrs check out on a 172 with an instructor, they turned me loose. I then spent another 6 or so hours flying cross country and circuits to log the requisite stats and hours. With a total of approximately 12hrs combined dual and solo on the 172, I rolled into the local TC office with my log books, application form and money and wrote another test. A month later, I had a piece of paper saying I had a PPL(A). Some time later, with all my Sea King time, I wrote a couple more exams and came away with a ATPL(H).

All to say, with a few dollars, some investment of time, a good understanding of the requirements and a smooth relationship with a flying club, it can be done quite easily.


----------



## trampbike (4 Mar 2015)

Ditch said:
			
		

> I surprised you only did 0.4 solo on the Grob.


Pretty standard with today's syllabus. You do 2 circuits and you are done. Then it's pre-test and test.


----------



## Posthumane (16 Apr 2015)

While renting a clapped out 172 is expensive for what you get, the marginal cost for a flight is much cheaper when you own an aircraft. Two to three people owning a small single can get to be downright reasonable, especially considering the amounts that I see people spending on new cars/trucks. While the aircraft itself doesn't compare to what you get paid to fly, there is a satisfaction in being able to load up a friend and some gear and fly out somewhere to go fishing or camping, or just to go see a town you've never seen before and grab a bite.

So trampbike, any luck with finding a plane yet?


----------



## Duckman54 (2 Jun 2015)

Thanks for the great info, bigzoomie. I'm in a very similar situation, except had CPL(A) with Multi-IFR prior to military (many moons ago, with heavy dust on the licence). Like Watchdog, also just finished Phase II and got selected Helo (1st choice!) and looking very much forward to soon being qualified to fly anything that flies.  Ability to write civvy ATPL(H) after a couple tours sounds great, but would also really like to keep current on the fixed wing side, possibly re-do Multi-IFR certification (once the 2nd bar and its pay raise comes along?).

Last civvy flight was just over 2 yrs ago (just prior to the dreaded CAPSS ride at Aircrew Selection), hope TC will recognize my recent fixed-wing time for 'currency' requirements.  (that last flight in Apr'13 was my first in over 10 yrs! Bit of a task to get Legal again, even to PPL standards!) I, too, would really like to get in on a small private plane just for fun, currency, and freedom aspects once posted somewhere for real.

Far as I can tell so far, CF does not frown upon Rec flying at all. Base Jumping, Extreme Skiing, etc and other 'high-risk activities' are strongly discouraged. Costs so much to train us, don't want us getting injured or disabled in dumb ways. 
...But there's always SISIP.  "We cover YOU!"


----------

