# The Eternal Debate- helmet scrim; fact or fiction



## Jarnhamar (22 Apr 2014)

To scrim or not to scrim?


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## daftandbarmy (23 Apr 2014)

Yes and no. For example:

Yes: when stalking, patrolling or conducting similar sneaky peeky stuff in daytime

No: Where night ops require you to wear night vis


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## Journeyman (23 Apr 2014)

When securing a bridge in the middle of an urban centre:  No










.....especially if it's "1944" and the Germans have Leopard 1s; scrim isn't going to help


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## medicineman (23 Apr 2014)

OZ - forgot to add to the poll - "Gives something else for overly anal RSM's to worry about...especially lining up and interweaving the various colours" and also "It allows male soldiers the ability to play with their hairdos like their female counterparts"...I'm likely going to Hell for that last one, but in reality, it only just tipped me over anyway  ;D.

MM


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## daftandbarmy (27 Apr 2014)

CBRN: No scrim, no helmet cover either


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## x_para76 (27 Apr 2014)

IMO the only time scrim is relevant is in a defensive position... Other than that it is pointless.


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## Tibbson (27 Apr 2014)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> When securing a bridge in the middle of an urban centre:  No
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If I recall that movie correctly one of the officers pointed that out around that time.


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## GnyHwy (27 Apr 2014)

When using an extreme bright green against a recently and freshly painted white door and under Hollywood lights, it is ineffective.


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## Tibbson (27 Apr 2014)

GnyHwy said:
			
		

> When using an extreme bright green against a recently and freshly painted white door and under Hollywood lights, it is ineffective.



Agreed.  The lad wearing the beret is much more effective.


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## MikeL (27 Apr 2014)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> No: Where night ops require you to wear night vis



From my experience, scrim doesn't interfere/get in the way of the NVG or mount(I assume this is what you are referring too). Not having scrim immediately around the NVG mount, and ensuring no scrim is long enough to move in the way works for me.


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## cupper (27 Apr 2014)

Schindler's Lift said:
			
		

> Agreed.  The lad wearing the beret is much more effective.



There's a lad wearing a beret?  :camo:


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## Danjanou (27 Apr 2014)

cupper said:
			
		

> There's a lad wearing a beret?  :camo:



see he was more effective then 8)


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## jeffb (27 Apr 2014)

I wonder if anyone has ever lost their helmet after putting it down with scrim on it. There's no way the CoC could deny THAT lost kit report...


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## devil39 (27 Apr 2014)

Yes scrim.   Breaks up shape, silhouette and texture.   Nothing shows up more than a stupid perfectly round helmet.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/6141631/Canadian-Military-FieldCraft

Or better yet "How Not To Be Seen"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltmMJntSfQI


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## ZacheryK (19 Sep 2014)

Yes scrim because it breaks up the nice straight lines of your helmet. Also, just a thought here, there's something to be said about a section of cammed up, predator looking types attacking your position in terms of intimidation.


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## x_para76 (19 Sep 2014)

IMO on the offensive scrim serves no purpose. It will be movement that alerts the enemy to your presence long before the shape of your helmet does. That and I'm sure the defenders won't think that they're being attacked by a company of wild bushes. If you're on a recce or any other type of sneaky peeky stuff you'll be wearing soft caps and likely won't be operating in anything bigger than a 4 man patrol so scrim does become more relevant.


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## Cloud Cover (10 Nov 2014)

While on the subject, what's the deal with the over sized Israeli scrim? They look like they are all wearing some sort of sad culinary garb.


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## The Bread Guy (10 Nov 2014)

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> While on the subject, what's the deal with the over sized Israeli scrim? They look like they are all wearing some sort of sad culinary garb.


They sure do break up the helmet outline ....


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## Cloud Cover (10 Nov 2014)

T hey can carry a large Domino's tucked up in those things.


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## Nfld Sapper (10 Nov 2014)

The Mitznefet is a covering for the infantry helmet used by the Israeli Defense Forces as of 1994. It is considerably larger than the helmet, giving the impression of a militarised chef's hat. The purpose of the floppy helmet cover is to break up the distinctive outline of a helmeted head and thus assist in the camouflage of the wearer. It was originally adapted in the 1990s for guerrilla warfare in the wood and bush land of south Lebanon, later adding a two sided camo, one for desert and one for woodland terrain. The Mitznefet is easily removable, and can be attached to the helmet while folded.
The term comes from the mitznefet, or turban, worn by the high priest in the Temple of Jerusalem, originating in a Hebrew language root meaning "to wrap".


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## cupper (10 Nov 2014)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> They sure do break up the helmet outline ....



Works too well. Makes one of the troopers look like a dog. ;D


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## cavalryman (10 Nov 2014)

Think Sardaukar from the original Dune movie  ;D


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## Cloud Cover (24 Nov 2014)

Guy in the middle (with the AM vest + brain bucket) has a look of resignation on his face that yes, he really is going to have to defuse that bomb buried in the road behind the photographer


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## daftandbarmy (24 Nov 2014)

3 Para at Mt Longdon.

They did most of their fighting at night so scrim wasn't an issue. 

We wore it all the time on our Para helmets back in the UK.


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## cupper (24 Nov 2014)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> 3 Para at Mt Longdon.
> 
> They did most of their fighting at night so scrim wasn't an issue.
> 
> We wore it all the time on our Para helmets back in the UK.



You would think that scrim at night would be advantageous,especially when the enemy comes wandering along blindly, sticks their hands out to feel what that hard lump in front of them is. 

"Hmmm. Doesn't feel like a helmet. Must be a bush or something." ;D


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## a_majoor (24 Nov 2014)

Scrim is perfectly logical even when advancing to contact. You are not always doing fire and movement, and there are many times where the platoon or portions thereof are hidden away (while the Pl Comd is up front doing his appreciation, for example, or after you fight through and are consolidating), so anything to reduce the enemy's chances of seeing you and delivering fire (from mortars or their depth position, for example), can only help.


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## daftandbarmy (25 Nov 2014)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Scrim is perfectly logical even when advancing to contact. You are not always doing fire and movement, and there are many times where the platoon or portions thereof are hidden away (while the Pl Comd is up front doing his appreciation, for example, or after you fight through and are consolidating), so anything to reduce the enemy's chances of seeing you and delivering fire (from mortars or their depth position, for example), can only help.



How not to be seen, as it should be taught of course  ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifmRgQX82O4


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## Towards_the_gap (25 Nov 2014)

Question:

Using local foliage/vegetation as 'scrim' is unacceptable why?

Also, scrim aids in the concealment of a 30 ton diesel-guzzleing-carbon-footprint-destroying-solid-green-steel-behemoth in what way?

I always laughed when, after this hard on for scrim found its way back into the minds of the 'thank god the wars over, now back to real soldiering' brigade, you would be out on exercise and see a grumpy looking bush sat in the drivers seat of a rented pickup. Nothing spoke greater volumes about the dichotomy of peacetime budget cut soldiering than this.


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## daftandbarmy (25 Nov 2014)

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> Question:
> 
> Using local foliage/vegetation as 'scrim' is unacceptable why?
> 
> ...



It's even better if the 'bush' happens to be wearing an expensive ghillie suit he just purchased, and it goes up in flames when he walks by the No. 1 burner.


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## medicineman (25 Nov 2014)

I seem to remember that when the US invaded Panama, a lot of the Light Infantry guys were wearing stuff on their helmets that reminded me of Anthony Hopkins in "A Bridge Too Far" - "...we're wearing the wrong camouflage..."


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## daftandbarmy (25 Nov 2014)

medicineman said:
			
		

> I seem to remember that when the US invaded Panama, a lot of the Light Infantry guys were wearing stuff on their helmets that reminded me of Anthony Hopkins in "A Bridge Too Far" - "...we're wearing the wrong camouflage..."



A guy I know in 1 PARA was attached to the 82nd Airborne just before the time of the Grenada Invasion (1983) and converted them all to scrim.

They took some pride in this, apparently, and being a unique unit in their Brigade they coined a nickname for themselves, which he used during the invasion when he pointed at the TV shouting 'Hey look, there are my Rag Heads!'.


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## Colin Parkinson (26 Nov 2014)

here is a urban friendly scrim







And we all remember these


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## medicineman (26 Nov 2014)

Pity they weren't around in Johnny Frost's time... >

MM


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## Jarnhamar (13 Dec 2014)

Mild Tangent- black styrofoam our helmets come issued new with.

I've heard the CoC say it's a part of the helmets protection. It acts as an additional cushion, and troops need to replace their helmet if it's damaged or removed (I've personally witnessed that order).   

I've also heard it's just packing material.


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## PuckChaser (13 Dec 2014)

A few years ago someone here contacted a captain that works on the bio science end of equipment testing and procurement to find out about aftermarket helmet pads. The black styrofoam is there to work with the suspension system to defend against back face deformation. Was a fairly detailed answer this captain gave, I haven't worn helmet pads since. I can forward it to you on dwan, but I won't be back to work until mid January.


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## cupper (13 Dec 2014)

A few years ago the company I was working for at the time was buying new hard hats for the production staff and other people who needed them. They had several different styles and variations. The one we ended up going with had a black styrofoam insert similar to what you are describing.

The representative for the supplier or manufacturer explained that it served two purposes. 

One was to act as insulation from extreme heat when working outdoors in the sun and high temps. And it does an excellent job at that. 

It also functions as a deformable protective layer from impact. Fortunately I haven't had an opportunity to put that aspect of it to the test.


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## Navy_Pete (14 Dec 2014)

Isn't that similar to the basic concept of bike helmets?  Years ago I went arse over tea kettle mountain biking, landed head first, and stood up.  I was fine, although my helmet split down the middle and flopped over both sides of my head like something out of a cartoon.  Aside from a bit of a sore neck and general embarrassment, I was perfectly okay.  Not entirely sure I would have walked away otherwise; I landed on gravel at the base of a hill, was going pretty fast and was in the deep woods.

Oddly enough now a big believer in bike helmets.


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## jollyjacktar (14 Dec 2014)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> How not to be seen, as it should be taught of course  ;D
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifmRgQX82O4



The bushes in the skit reminds me of a story I once read in the RCL's humour section.  The writer had been in North Africa in a Recce role.  The went out daily in an effort to find the Germans but came up empty.  This was a source of puzzlement as they knew the Germans were sending out their Recce patrols as well.  One day after another fruitless search they were heading back to camp.  As they were going through a wadi his gunner spotted several scrubby looking bushes about 75 meters away.  He decided to give one of the bushes a burst just to break the monotony and fired into the middle one.  The other two bushes jumped up and ran away at high speed and the mystery was solved.


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