# Perceptions of CivvyU Programs influencing ROTP Application?



## callsign (18 May 2011)

I ran a few searches and could not locate a prior discussion on this.

I'm studying in a highly competitive university program with a student body that has an entering average of ~90% from highschool.  I am wondering if this would any weight to a ROTP application for a relevant trade, as one would have to admit that much of a university degree's value is measured by its perceived high standards relative to other schools in its category of offerings. 

For example, I am no engineering student, but having worked and partied with many engineers in the past few years, would it not be safe to assume that a UW or U of T Mech Engineering program would have higher standards than another program with a significantly lower entrance average?


----------



## Pusser (18 May 2011)

I would say that the transcript that got you into the program would bear more weight than the fact that you're in the program at the end of the day.  After all, the guy who finishes last at medical school is still called "Doctor."

The only way you will know for sure whether you're competitive for ROTP is to apply.  The only guarantee anyone can give is that you won't get in if you don't.  I would avoid placing too much emphasis on the program in which you're currently enrolled.  Mention it by all means and even state that it is an elite program, but don't dwell on it.  Too much emphasis would be a lot like saying, "I own a Mercedes, so I must be a really good driver (i.e. better than a Ford owner)."


----------



## callsign (18 May 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Mention it by all means and even state that it is an elite program, but don't dwell on it.  Too much emphasis would be a lot like saying, "I own a Mercedes, so I must be a really good driver (i.e. better than a Ford owner)."


Funnily enough, I had a similar conversation with a fellow who is enrolled in another program at my school.  He told me that my degree is "like a mercedes" and that it would pretty much pave a path for me as I go along in my career.  And you are absolutely right, it is ultimately the driver that matters.  Although he said that with good intentions, I felt like he was lumping way too much praise for simply being in an acclaimed undergraduate program.    I want to to know if anyone in the CF would really care?  Among other things, would it be a considered one of my "strong" points when the personnel selection officers are reviewing my application?


----------



## dimsum (18 May 2011)

callsign said:
			
		

> Funnily enough, I had a similar conversation with a fellow who is enrolled in another program at my school.  He told me that my degree is "like a mercedes" and that it would pretty much pave a path for me as I go along in my career.  Although he said that with good intentions, I felt like he was lumping way too much praise for simply being in an acclaimed undergraduate program.   I personally beg to differ from his viewpoint, but I want to to know if anyone in the CF would really care?  Among other things, would it be a considered one of my "strong" points when the personnel selection officers are reviewing my application?



It would be one of the factors of course, lumped in with the other selection criteria (extra-curriculars, etc.)  Not to put too fine a point on it, but having a great transcript from univ means you're a great student and can learn, not necessarily (but sometimes) a good match for the CF.  

That being said, I'm now curious as to what undergrad program this is?


----------



## jwtg (18 May 2011)

callsign said:
			
		

> ... as one would have to admit that much of a university degree's value is measured by its perceived high standards relative to other schools in its category of offerings.
> 
> For example, I am no engineering student, but having worked and partied with many engineers in the past few years, would it not be safe to assume that a UW or U of T Mech Engineering program would have higher standards than another program with a significantly lower entrance average?



The CF requires ROTP OCdts to pursue their studies at an accredited Canadian university.  No stipulations about the prestige of said institution apply.  If your academic average is much higher than others, it will give you points in that part of the formula that helps determine your place on the list- that's it.  The rest of your score will be determined by the many other factors in your application (including, but not limited to: your CFAT score, interview score, extracurriculars/sports/leadership/volunteer work/work experience, etc.).  

I got in with an 80.0% high school average and an 82% university average.  Other people got turned down with much better marks.

Your application is a package deal!  Good luck.


----------



## callsign (18 May 2011)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> It would be one of the factors of course, lumped in with the other selection criteria (extra-curriculars, etc.)  Not to put too fine a point on it, but having a great transcript from univ means you're a great student and can learn, not necessarily (but sometimes) a good match for the CF.
> 
> That being said, I'm now curious as to what undergrad program this is?


BBA Accounting/Finance.   I can send you a PM of which uni if you would like to know.


----------



## Nauticus (18 May 2011)

callsign said:
			
		

> Funnily enough, I had a similar conversation with a fellow who is enrolled in another program at my school.  He told me that my degree is "like a mercedes" and that it would pretty much pave a path for me as I go along in my career.  And you are absolutely right, it is ultimately the driver that matters.  Although he said that with good intentions, I felt like he was lumping way too much praise for simply being in an acclaimed undergraduate program.    I want to to know if anyone in the CF would really care?  Among other things, would it be a considered one of my "strong" points when the personnel selection officers are reviewing my application?


Now, I don't know how much merit is placed on the prestige of a school you are enrolled in, but I believe an alternative strongpoint of your application would be the assumed very strong grades you may have had to even gain enrollment in a top university.


----------



## callsign (19 May 2011)

jwtg said:
			
		

> The CF requires ROTP OCdts to pursue their studies at an accredited Canadian university.  No stipulations about the prestige of said institution apply.  If your academic average is much higher than others, it will give you points in that part of the formula that helps determine your place on the list- that's it.  The rest of your score will be determined by the many other factors in your application (including, but not limited to: your CFAT score, interview score, extracurriculars/sports/leadership/volunteer work/work experience, etc.).
> 
> I got in with an 80.0% high school average and an 82% university average.  Other people got turned down with much better marks.
> 
> Your application is a package deal!  Good luck.





			
				Nauticus said:
			
		

> Now, I don't know how much merit is placed on the prestige of a school you are enrolled in, but I believe an alternative strongpoint of your application would be the assumed very strong grades you may have had to even gain enrollment in a top university.



Thanks a lot!


----------



## ballz (19 May 2011)

callsign said:
			
		

> BBA Accounting/Finance.



Brutal choice.



			
				callsign said:
			
		

> Funnily enough, I had a similar conversation with a fellow who is enrolled in another program at my school.  He told me that my degree is "like a mercedes" and that it would pretty much pave a path for me as I go along in my career.



Yes, that is what these institutions have been selling him and clearly he's bought right into it. He'll be disappointed to find out that he's still going to have to start out somewhere near the base and actually perform better than the rest of the neanderthals from lesser schools/programs to move past them. There is only one world, the real one, and a university can't fix that problem despite their claims.

But the good news is, at least they haven't fooled you.


----------



## RCDtpr (19 May 2011)

You're "prestigious" degree may help you get into the CF but once in you will be judged on competence, personality etc etc.

I don't know what my troop officers degree is nor do I care.  What I do care about is whether or not he makes smart decisions to ensure that I am not being put at risk unnecessarily. 

Maybe it's just me but you're coming off as somewhat arrogant with this "look at how prestigious my degree is compared to those other ones" attitude.  If you get into the CF, respect from your peers and subordinates is earned.  Coming in with an attitude like that isn't going to help you earn that respect.

I could be miscontruing you....but that's the vibe I'm getting.


----------



## Pusser (19 May 2011)

RCDtpr said:
			
		

> Maybe it's just me but you're coming off as somewhat arrogant with this "look at how prestigious my degree is compared to those other ones" attitude.  If you get into the CF, respect from your peers and subordinates is earned.  Coming in with an attitude like that isn't going to help you earn that respect.
> 
> I could be miscontruing you....but that's the vibe I'm getting.



I don't think he's being arrogant at all.  In fact, I think he's being refreshingly mature about the issue.  I've been around the academic world my whole life (my father was one until he happily retired a number of years ago).  It's a petty, vindictive and nasty world where institutions and even faculties within the same institution will cut their own mothers' throats to advance their own agendas.  There are many areas in life where the name at the top of your diploma is more important that what you did to get it.  The OP was simply asking whether this is true in the CF.  I'm happy to say that it is not.


----------



## Container (19 May 2011)

A buddy of mine just finished his masters at Harvard. Speaking to him now he seems no smarter than he was when we was younger- except now he's a complete douche about everything. A guy who I made drink Windex at a house party is always talking about wine tasting and breaking down movies for "analysis" (sometimes The Expendables is just The Expendables). He even named his business "Ivy League" something something- thats so douchey!

I think you'll find that in most government jobs the degree is a "check" in a box type of thing about what you are eligible for in terms of jobs. The more checks the better you look- so your degree is a check in the box. The last guy I trained had an Honours degree in finance- could'nt spell to save his life. Theres alot more at work then where you got your degree.


----------



## callsign (19 May 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> Brutal choice.
> 
> Yes, that is what these institutions have been selling him and clearly he's bought right into it. He'll be disappointed to find out that he's still going to have to start out somewhere near the base and actually perform better than the rest of the neanderthals from lesser schools/programs to move past them. There is only one world, the real one, and a university can't fix that problem despite their claims.
> 
> But the good news is, at least they haven't fooled you.



A brutal choice indeed.  Well, the accounting part at least.  Finance makes more use of interesting quantitative methods rather than the simple algebra and arithmetic that encapsulates most of accounting theory.  And I'm pretty good at math, so it works out with decent marks and lots of spare time to do other activities like volunteering, working out, relaxing, drinking, playing video games, cooking, learning about the CF as an organization, etc 

The way I see it, the degree is just proof of achieving (or exceeding) some sort of identifiable standard.  It makes it easier for the decision maker in question to hire more quickly and effectively for many established occupations.  Though I would have to say that it is still overrated in the sense that too many young people correlate self-worth with academic performance.  

I'll finish school not only to possibly earn a commission, but to also ensure that I have a good back-up in case the CF decides that my skills are not required.


----------



## Scott (19 May 2011)

callsign said:
			
		

> I'll finish school not only to possibly earn a commission, but to also ensure that I have a good back-up in case the CF decides that my skills are not required.



And they might be full at the time...like pretty much now.

You have a refreshing attitude towards this, or so it seems. I wasn't so sure how this was going to go based on some other posts I saw. Happy to see it the way it is.


----------



## callsign (19 May 2011)

RCDtpr said:
			
		

> You're "prestigious" degree may help you get into the CF but once in you will be judged on competence, personality etc etc.
> 
> I don't know what my troop officers degree is nor do I care.  What I do care about is whether or not he makes smart decisions to ensure that I am not being put at risk unnecessarily.
> 
> ...


To tell you the truth, I have no interest in coming on an army forum to brag about being in a good university program.  I can do that at one of the many bars or nightclubs around here (not that I would anyway).  I am just trying to gauge perceptions here.

But thank you for your post, as it was informative nonetheless.  Any reasonable person should know that a degree itself doesn't make an effective military commander.


----------



## ballz (19 May 2011)

callsign said:
			
		

> A brutal choice indeed.  Well, the accounting part at least.  Finance makes more use of interesting quantitative methods rather than the simple algebra and arithmetic that encapsulates most of accounting theory.  And I'm pretty good at math, so it works out with decent marks and lots of spare time to do other activities like volunteering, working out, relaxing, drinking, playing video games, cooking, learning about the CF as an organization, etc



I was just kidding, if you take a look at my profile you'll see I am in the same double-major


----------



## Scott (19 May 2011)

callsign said:
			
		

> To tell you the truth, I have no interest in coming on an army forum to brag about being in a good university program.  I can do that at one of the many bars or nightclubs around here (not that I would anyway).  I am just trying to gauge perceptions here.
> 
> But thank you for your post, as it was informative nonetheless.  Any reasonable person should know that a degree itself doesn't make an effective military commander.



I think that, generally, people here will wait to judge someone based on what they say, not the mere fact that they are interested in a particular career path. Stay here long enough and you'll see why some folks decide to get their back up when someone appears to be getting high and mighty over their chosen course of study and what they think the CF owes them because of it. 

After a few hundred of these eager beavers we run out of patience. Sane as we do with the guys who think they know all there is to know about serving because they rawk at CoD. Sometimes unreasonable people come to the interwebs, too.

Keep on your path WRT attitude towards education and getting recruited and I don't see any issues for you, not here anyway


----------

