# Tac Hel Combat/Survival Vest



## Loachman (10 Dec 2008)

We have always had a need for a vest that serves both regular survival and combat survival needs, and also fills the role of a tac vest for everyday out-of-the-cockpit roles, yet have never had one. Donning a survival (only) vest to go flying and doffing it when back on the ground and replacing it with webbing or tac vest (repeat endlessly) has always been a pain and a ridiculous concept. For obvious reasons - like reality - there is now an urgent need for a vest that will fulfil these previously separate functions.

Let the discussion begin and the ideas flow.

I have my own ideas, but do not want to influence things yet.

Comments on what other nations have, what features are necessary and desireable, and what may be in the works (if anything) are encouraged.


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## MG34 (10 Dec 2008)

http://www.eagleindustries.com/product.php?productid=16140&cat=262&page=1


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## benny88 (10 Dec 2008)

Loachman said:
			
		

> We have always had a need for a vest that serves both regular survival and combat survival needs, and also fills the role of a tac vest for everyday out-of-the-cockpit roles, yet have never had one. Donning a survival (only) vest to go flying and doffing it when back on the ground and replacing it with webbing or tac vest (repeat endlessly) has always been a pain and a ridiculous concept. For obvious reasons - like reality - there is now an urgent need for a vest that will fulfil these previously separate functions.
> 
> Let the discussion begin and the ideas flow.
> 
> ...



   This may be a stupid question, but I've been curious about it and this seems like the place to ask it. Can you give me a general idea of what a Tac Hel pilot does while not flying? I knew they would be much more likely to be in a situation where they would need to defend themselves on the ground, but I didn't know it was enough that Tac Vests were issued/used. What sort of weapons are handled and how do you fit in FOB defence and all that?
   Sorry for the derail and the newbie questions, I'm just curious as I'm considering TacHel when I finally get to and through BFT. Actually I'm suprised this hasn't been addressed before on here, hopefully it'll help someone else out too.

Thanks!


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## Loachman (10 Dec 2008)

MG34 said:
			
		

> http://www.eagleindustries.com/product.php?productid=16140&cat=262&page=1



Well, all of my work save writing the staff paper and UCR appears to have been done for me. I am not really surprised that this exists, given what private industry has done for ground troops.

Thanks tons.


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## Bograt (10 Dec 2008)

Loach,

Is this concept to be worn under a LPSV. Do y'all wear that kit in the tac world?


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## Loachman (10 Dec 2008)

benny88 said:
			
		

> This may be a stupid question,



No.



			
				benny88 said:
			
		

> this seems like the place to ask it.



No.



			
				benny88 said:
			
		

> Can you give me a general idea of what a Tac Hel pilot does while not flying?



Plan, brief, liaise, eat, sleep, surf Army.ca and lesser sites, chat up impressionable women (or men, these days, for those so inclined)...



			
				benny88 said:
			
		

> I knew they would be much more likely to be in a situation where they would need to defend themselves on the ground,



In a more conventional war setting than our current one, barring inadvertant premature landings.



			
				benny88 said:
			
		

> but I didn't know it was enough that Tac Vests were issued/used.



We get the full land scale as well as the aircrew scale, although I do not believe that tac vests have universally replaced webbing for us yet. We got them for our deployment workups and I doubt that we'll have to return them.



			
				benny88 said:
			
		

> What sort of weapons are handled



"Handled"? Most of them have a handle of some sort...

Do you mean issued/carried, or which ones we train on?

The aircrew pers weapon is the Browning, and everyone in theatre with a pistol also gets a C7.

We fired pistol, rifle, C9, C6, and shotgun live for our workup, with tons of ammo - I got seconds and sometimes thirds as there was so much and I don't get the opportunity to shoot as much as I'd like lately, and I have never been able to throw that many grenades in one go in my life. Better than any candy store. We only got the sim for M72, Carl Gustaf, and M203 this time - a long drive to Meaford for a big letdown. ("Do any of you want to go again?" "No, thanks." "Not me." "Pass, thanks." "Maybe next time...").



			
				benny88 said:
			
		

> how do you fit in FOB defence and all that?



We don't. We fly away.

Helicopters in theatre fly out of KAF. We have Bulgarians there to save us.



			
				benny88 said:
			
		

> Sorry for the derail and the newbie questions,



As well you should be, but I'll forgive you just this once.



			
				benny88 said:
			
		

> I'm considering TacHel when I finally get to and through BFT.



Good. Just remember that battlefield helicopters do _*not*_ represent, or even resemble, airpower, but are simply a vehicle with a different means of mobility - rotary wings instead of tracks or wheels.



			
				benny88 said:
			
		

> Actually I'm suprised this hasn't been addressed before on here,



I'm absolutely certain that I've gone through this before.



			
				benny88 said:
			
		

> hopefully it'll help someone else out too.



Only if they use the search function, but they'll never look for it in this thread.


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## Loachman (10 Dec 2008)

Bograt said:
			
		

> Is this concept to be worn under a LSPV.



As a replacement.

The current LP/SV is fine for unexpected peacetime camping trips, but we don't need no stinking fishing kit in wartime. What we need is weapons, ammunition, the same first aid kit as the ground guys and possibly more, two-way communications gear, and water etcetera.

This one is modular, so it can be reconfigured easily for any situation. Any MOLLE pouch can be attached, but the company makes a line of fire resistant ones as well as the vest.

It's only lacking the LP collar, but that's a pretty simple mod.



			
				Bograt said:
			
		

> Do y'all wear that kit in the tac world?



Yes. We got it first. It's much better than the older one, but still as deficient in a tactical setting.

It's hard convincing a** f**ce engineering/ALSE types that we need actual warfighting stuff and things that work in the field; just one of many reasons why we need an Army Aviation Corps.


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## Bograt (10 Dec 2008)

Is my Irish buddy back at 400 now? Tell him Bowers said hello.


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## benny88 (10 Dec 2008)

Loachman said:
			
		

> "Handled"? Most of them have a handle of some sort...


 :



			
				Loachman said:
			
		

> Good. Just remember that battlefield helicopters do _*not*_ represent, or even resemble, airpower, but are simply a vehicle with a different means of mobility - rotary wings instead of tracks or wheels.



Seen.



			
				Loachman said:
			
		

> I'm absolutely certain that I've gone through this before.



Sorry, I hadn't come across it. Succinct and helpful post, thanks Loachman.


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## gonzo5a (10 Dec 2008)

Loach, the aircrew here in 408 just got kitted out with a new tac/survival vest for the upcoming deployment. I just got a quick glance at it, and it has most of the pouches able to carry the equipment on the tac vest. Whether it has enough mag pouches, I'm not sure.


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## Loachman (10 Dec 2008)

Bograt said:
			
		

> Is my Irish buddy back at 400 now?



I've been away a lot and gone through a few brain dumps along the way. To whom are you referring?



			
				Bograt said:
			
		

> Tell him Bowers said hello.



Wherever he is, you're closer. You would be better off doing that yourself.

And now, I invite everyone back to the topic at hand, a Tac Hel Combat/Survival Vest...


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## Loachman (10 Dec 2008)

gonzo5a said:
			
		

> Loach, the aircrew here in 408 just got kitted out with a new tac/survival vest for the upcoming deployment. I just got a quick glance at it, and it has most of the pouches able to carry the equipment on the tac vest. Whether it has enough mag pouches, I'm not sure.



Thanks. Last time I was out there a couple of guys were playing around with a Drop Zone vest in a cockpit and taking photos. I have not seen any new vests here yet, but there's not a lot of real activity going on either.


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## daftandbarmy (11 Dec 2008)

How about this US Army SARVIP vest? As apparently used during heroic extraction operations under fire by handsome young airmobile patriots....

SARVIP Nomex Survival Vest
http://www.flighthelmet.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=FHL&Product_Code=PRSV-SARVIP&Category_Code=SURV


http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=24921

http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/nov2004/a110404d.html

Self extraction is a maneuver the pilots had been told about in flight school. A maneuver considered dangerous enough that no practical application was given, just the verbal "Here's how you do it."

Hanging from a pilot's flight vest is a nylon strap attached to a carabineer. On each side of the Apache, handholds are bolted on, primarily to assist maintenance crews as they work on the birds. They also have another purpose, to be used in the event of a self extraction.

The general idea is that a pilot attaches to the side of the helicopter with the nylon strap wrapped through the hand holds connecting the nylon strap with the carabineer, and then flies off to a safe location.


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## NL_engineer (1 Jan 2009)

Whow why didn't I come across this earlier 



			
				Loachman said:
			
		

> We have always had a need for a vest that serves both regular survival and combat survival needs, and also fills the role of a tac vest for everyday out-of-the-cockpit roles, yet have never had one. Donning a survival (only) vest to go flying and doffing it when back on the ground and replacing it with webbing or tac vest (repeat endlessly) has always been a pain and a ridiculous concept. For obvious reasons - like reality - there is now an urgent need for a vest that will fulfil these previously separate functions.
> 
> Let the discussion begin and the ideas flow.
> 
> ...



Whats wrong eith the issued Tac Vest  ??? according to the CTS Guys its the best thing since sliced bread, and no other vest on the market can beat it  ;D  

                                                             [For new readers I hate the issued Tac vest, and mean the above as a joke]

If I were a flight crew would go with a TT Vest as a base (worn over the issued armor), along with 1 tripple mag shingle, two triple mag pouches (with a triple pistol mag shingle mounted on front, large FA pouch (more then likely one of these because more medical supplies would be needed after the crash, and during the E&E stage.), a GP pouch, a E&E pouch, and two canteen pouches (w/ full canteens, one canteen cup stove, and two cups).

Contents 

Mag pouches (take a guess  ;D)
GP pouch- NVG's, gloves, striped down ration, small radio (VHF and encrypted to talk searchers to location), and personal gear
IFK- an large arrangement of medical items (NPA's, CAT's Israeli Bandages to band-aids, and anti inflammatory cream/meds) [IE larger IFK]
E&E Pouch- map of AOR/compass, tin foil, fire starters, single mirror,  Gerber, iodine tablets, and what ever else needed for desert survival.

That`s just my 2 cents worth, I may be way off since I`m not air crew  ;D
_
Edited to add:_

As many frags, extra mags, and other things that go bang as can fit; along with one or two smoke grenades to mark an LZ.


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## Loachman (1 Jan 2009)

One has to be able to fit into the cockpit and be able to manipulate the controls, and the harness still has to function. There is only so much that one can carry and still do this.


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## NL_engineer (1 Jan 2009)

Loachman said:
			
		

> One has to be able to fit into the cockpit and be able to manipulate the controls, and the harness still has to function. There is only so much that one can carry and still do this.



That's why I recommend the Issued Tac Vest, It is the best thing ever  : and who needs more then 5 mags  :


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## Nfld Sapper (1 Jan 2009)

NL_engineer said:
			
		

> That's why I recommend the Issued Tac Vest, It is the best thing ever  : and who needs more then 5 mags  :



Pretty hard getting 9mm mags out of the C-7 mag pouches you know.


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## NL_engineer (1 Jan 2009)

The NFLD Grinch said:
			
		

> Pretty hard getting 9mm mags out of the C-7 mag pouches you know.



No they go on the holster on the strong side, or in the right front utility pouch  : God forbid that you put anything but your IFK in the left front pouch  :



			
				Loachman said:
			
		

> One has to be able to fit into the cockpit and be able to manipulate the controls, and the harness still has to function. There is only so much that one can carry and still do this.



How much room do you have in front of you wile in the cockpit? and how much on the sides (I've only been in the back)


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## aesop081 (1 Jan 2009)

NL_engineer said:
			
		

> How much room do you have in front of you wile in the cockpit? and how much on the sides (I've only been in the back)



I'm not a Tac Hel pilot, but since you didnt listen to one, i will chime in.

In his aircraft, just like in mine, there is very little room to begin with. All that stuff you posted, while all nice and useful, its just too much.


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## Nfld Sapper (1 Jan 2009)

While not a CH-146 cockpit there is little room in it for all that stuff.


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