# Incentive Pay Category For Cadets Joining The CF



## McG (14 May 2003)

I recall reading a post where someone said they had never seen anything allowing former Army Cadets to get promoted quicker.  This statement was then used to support the argument that no such system existed.  

Former cadets can receive credit towards promotion in the PRes and Reg Force.  Here is what the references have to say:

*From CFAO 6-1 -- ENROLMENT - REGULAR FORCE* 

RANK ON ENROLMENT

9.         Non-Commissioned Members. An applicant for enrolment as an NCM shall be enrolled in the rank of private with the status level of private (recruit) (Pte (R)), except as follows: 

A former cadet of any of the Canadian cadet organizations who has completed three years as a cadet within the previous five years, during which time the cadet has passed a six-week trade or specialty course, shall be enrolled as Pte (R) and be granted a time credit of 180 days for the purposes of determining the date on which the member will become eligible to be paid the rate of pay prescribed for a private, pay level 1, incentive pay category 1.
*Note* - For Army cadets, qualification as Master Cadet, and for Air cadets, a flying scholarship or two completed summer camp courses, each of two weeks duration, will be considered equivalent to a six-week trade or specialty course. For Sea cadets, two completed summer camp courses will be considered equivalent to a six-week trade or specialty course.


*From CFAO 49-5 -- CAREER POLICY - NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBER -PRIMARY RESERVE* 

3.         On enrolment, re-enrolment or transfer, a member who has had former service in the Canadian Forces or in a cadet unit, or service with another country, may be granted a time credit for promotion to Cpl and above, in accordance with this paragraph and as determined by the enrolment authority pursuant to 49-11.  The time credit or seniority granted shall apply only to the rank granted on enrolment as follows: 

Former cadets of any of the Canadian Cadet organizations may be granted time credit for promotion in             recognition of qualifications they have obtained prior to enrolment. The amount of credit shall be determined by CHQ.
 

*From CFAO 49-12 -- PROMOTION POLICY -OFFICERS -PRIMARY RESERVE* 
*ANNEX A -- MINIMUM QUALIFYING TIME IN RANK FOR ENTRY TO PROMOTION ZONE FOR NEXT HIGHER RANK* 

2.             Qualifying time for entry to the promotion zone for the next higher rank is reckoned from the date of seniority in the present rank, except that: 

cadets who have served a minimum of two years in the rank of warrant officer and above may be granted one year qualifying time in the rank of lieutenant for promotion to the rank of captain.


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## Sgt_McWatt (2 Jan 2005)

Can I get the exact link to that? I am on the CFAO under 6-1 however I cannot find the section about cadets.


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## McG (2 Jan 2005)

Go to paragraph 9


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## drrchief (7 Apr 2005)

As a past Cadet/Reservist/CIC/Reg Force I was allowed 6 months.


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## Pea (7 Apr 2005)

Just wondering if you have to submit some form of a memo to receive this advance, or is it automatically applied to you if you qualify?
And input would be great, thanks!


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## kincanucks (7 Apr 2005)

Card_11 said:
			
		

> Just wondering if you have to submit some form of a memo to receive this advance, or is it automatically applied to you if you qualify?
> And input would be great, thanks!



You have to provide a letter/record of cadet service when you submit your application.


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## Pea (7 Apr 2005)

Kincanucks,
Do you mean the application to join the forces? I filled in the spot for cadets on the application. Do I need another letter or something as well? And how would I go about getting that?

Thanks!


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## kincanucks (7 Apr 2005)

Card_11 said:
			
		

> Kincanucks,
> Do you mean the application to join the forces? I filled in the spot for cadets on the application. Do I need another letter or something as well? And how would I go about getting that?
> 
> Thanks!



From your cadet corps.


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## Pea (7 Apr 2005)

> From your cadet corps.



Is there a different way of getting this letter, as my officer from that time is no longer there, and we had a difficult situation between us, so I am sure they would not be very willing to help me out?


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## HollywoodHitman (7 Apr 2005)

This is scary in it's own right. I was a cadet for 5 years, and was only moderately more qualified to be there (basic training) than some of my peers. There are still MANY things that one learns on their Basic Course that is not covered in Cadets. The biggest things that will give a Cadet a leg up are simply the rank familiarisation and the drill and ceremonial.

I am also fully qualified to say that the Cadets of today, are NOT the Cadets of 14 years ago........As the Cadets when I was in, were not the Cadets of generations previous to us.

Not to say that they're not good at what they do, just that they are different than they used to be. The whole Cadet movement is different, with different aims. It is FAR less military now, than at any time in the past.


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## kincanucks (7 Apr 2005)

Card_11 said:
			
		

> Is there a different way of getting this letter, as my officer from that time is no longer there, and we had a difficult situation between us, so I am sure they would not be very willing to help me out?



You have to provide official proof of cadet service. Try the Regional Cadet HQ if you have to.


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## Pea (7 Apr 2005)

> You have to provide official proof of cadet service. Try the Regional Cadet HQ if you have to.


This may seem like a stupid question, but would my certificate for passing NSCE work to show that I was in cadets, and completed all the training?


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## kincanucks (7 Apr 2005)

Card_11 said:
			
		

> This may seem like a stupid question, but would my certificate for passing NSCE work to show that I was in cadets, and completed all the training?




603 Cadet Service
1. General. An applicant who has served in the Cadet Forces of Canada may, on the authority of the
Commanding Officer of a CFRC, be granted 180 days of Incentive Credit (IC) towards the Pte. IPC 2 pay
category provided that the applicant meets both of the following criteria:

a. completed at least three years of Cadet Service terminating within five years of the date of
applications to the CF; and

b. successfully completed a six-week occupation or specialty course. An applicant with cadet
service may be granted an equivalency in lieu of this requirement at sub para a, if the Cadet
has completed the following appropriate environmental training:

1. Army Cadets â â€œ The Master Cadet qualification is equivalent to a six-week occupation or
specialty course;

2. Sea Cadets â â€œ Two summer camp courses, each of which is at least two weeks in duration, is
considered equivalent to a six-week occupation or specialty course; or

3. Air Cadets â â€œ Two summer camp courses, each of which is at least two weeks in duration, or
a Flying Scholarship, is equivalent to a six-week occupation or specialty course.

2. The credit granted to a cadet on enrolment is a one-time recognition of the experience they have
gained throughout their cadet training. Credit will be granted only on enrolment in one of the components
of the CF and will not be granted on a subsequent transfer between components. Furthermore, cadet
service is not eligible for inclusion when calculating Time Credit for Promotion on enrolment.


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## Armageddon (7 Apr 2005)

Accelerated progression just because you were a cadet, that is a somewhat scary concept.  Anyone I have ever know said that after about 1-1.5months they were pretty much on par with everyone that had no prior experience with the military.  But that is only based off the words of about 30-40 people who have done cadets and then wend reg force.  Just my $0.02


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## kincanucks (7 Apr 2005)

Armageddon said:
			
		

> Accelerated progression just because you were a cadet, that is a somewhat scary concept.   Anyone I have ever know said that after about 1-1.5months they were pretty much on par with everyone that had no prior experience with the military.   But that is only based off the words of about 30-40 people who have done cadets and then wend reg force.   Just my $0.02



I have never heard anyone getting promoted faster because they were in the cadets or CIC.   Maybe this in reference to CIC keeping their commissions as 2Lt when they go Reg F?

The only thing about cadet service in the recruiting manual is what I have posted above.


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## drrchief (7 Apr 2005)

The cadets of today certainley are not the cadets from when I was in some 19 years ago.  I still believe in the system and think that it has something to offer the youth of today.  I do think though that the cadet movement has to up it's use of camping, survival, weapons use.


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## Scothern (9 Apr 2005)

kincanucks said:
			
		

> I have never heard anyone getting promoted faster because they were in the cadets or CIC.   Maybe this in reference to CIC keeping their commissions as 2Lt when they go Reg F?
> 
> The only thing about cadet service in the recruiting manual is what I have posted above.



While there is nothing in reg force that allows faster promotions from cadets, remember that CIC is part of the Reserve component.  So if you "transfer" you get Time Credit Promotion at the rates which are (I think) 1 for 1 class B/C and 1 for 4 class A.

One thing that wasn't clear for me regarding the 6 month pay incentive for cadets is it only applies if you join first as an NCM.  If you go CIC and then go reg force NCM, you don't get it, which I guess makes sense since you get the reserve time in instead.


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## Steel Badger (9 Apr 2005)

2332Piper said:
			
		

> Somehow the idea of cadet service being an accelerant to your military career strikes me as being a little...odd? Lets be honest here, Cadets isn't exactly representative of the CF, so what makes cadet training equivilant to CF training in such a manner that it serves to advance your promotion? I don't know, just seems odd.



I remember, in the wild days of my youth, being told that being a Gold Star with wrreath Cadet-Sergeant enabled me to gain an immediate promotion to Corporal....

Imagine my suprise when I was invited into the Corporal's Romm of our JR NCO's mess for a nice little "talk"...

Imagine the bruises lol


SB


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## Navalsnpr (9 Apr 2005)

I joined in the RegF in '92 and since I've found that there are many differences for ex-Cadets.

In my case, I was given 6 months towards pay and promotion for being an Army Cadet. I was a Master Cadet and served 6 years in the Corps. I also served 3 years as a CIC Officer with a total of 278 days on call outs, but was given nothing for it and it and I received nothing at the time of enrolment towards my CD.

After being in 12 years, I was able to reclaim the 3 years as a CIC Officer towards my CD time credit no problem. As for the 278 days of pensionable time.... well when I was in Cornwallis, I asked about it and the admin staff indicated it didn't count. All recruits without previous Pensionable service have to sign a waver. What that means for me is that if I retire at 20 years, I would have received a 41.52% pension rather than a 40% pension. 

When you are at the recruiting centre, let them know exactly what you have done in the past.


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## kincanucks (9 Apr 2005)

_When you are at the recruiting centre, let them know exactly what you have done in the past._

And be able to prove it.  It is not the job of the recruiting centre to look for a record of your previous cadet service.


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## drrchief (11 Apr 2005)

My 5.5 years in the cadets (Master Cadet) and time as a CIC officer allotted me 6 months time in (Pay/Service/Promo) also allotted my that time towards my CD.

DRRCHIEF >  :skull:


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## sigpig (11 Apr 2005)

2332Piper said:
			
		

> Somehow the idea of cadet service being an accelerant to your military career strikes me as being a little...odd? Lets be honest here, Cadets isn't exactly representative of the CF, so what makes cadet training equivilant to CF training in such a manner that it serves to advance your promotion? I don't know, just seems odd.



When I was a new officer in 723 Comm in Halifax I heard that a new pte who had come over from the cadet corps would get promoted cpl after six months. That didn't seem right to me, what could being a kid in cadets do to justify that? I found out later that she had been a gold star with wreath, in charge of her corps as a Lt, and an instructor for several years in Gagetown. 

I found someone who could give drill better than many reserve (and some reg) MCpls. I found someone who could instruct in a classroom better than _most_ reserve nco's and officers. Someone whose dress and deportment were outstanding and had a work ethic that would exhaust most others. 

Needless to say my attitude towards those who attained high qualifications in the cadets changed a great deal. Of course I could be biased as the former cadet in question has been my wife for almost 20 years now  ;D


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## drrchief (11 Apr 2005)

Bravo Sigpig!
For pointing out some good points about the cadet system.  I have witnessed this as wll.  Although the Gold Star and wreath does not make it any better.  A lot of this steams from PRIDE! and this goes beyond Cadets/Res/Reg.  Myself, with the RES/REG I believe that I could have goven better lectures than that of my instructors in basic.


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## Fry (22 May 2005)

so let me make this clear, I was in air cadets for almost 5 years, and sucessfully completed 2 courses, 2 weeks long each... that would stand for a completed 6 week course? And what will be the benefit of this? prehaps someone could explain? Do I get higher pay? faster promotion?


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## chrisf (22 May 2005)

sigpig said:
			
		

> When I was a new officer in 723 Comm in Halifax I heard that a new pte who had come over from the cadet corps would get promoted cpl after six months. That didn't seem right to me, what could being a kid in cadets do to justify that? I found out later that she had been a gold star with wreath, in charge of her corps as a Lt, and an instructor for several years in Gagetown.



On the other hand, I'm guessing she wasn't promoted to corpral after six months, was she?


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## sigpig (22 May 2005)

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> On the other hand, I'm guessing she wasn't promoted to corpral after six months, was she?



Actually I believe she was, and deservedly so. Of course I am talking about 1984 so there may not be much relation to how things work today. Man it's scary when I realize how long ago some of these memories are


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## prom (24 May 2005)

kincanucks said:
			
		

> _When you are at the recruiting centre, let them know exactly what you have done in the past._
> 
> And be able to prove it.  It is not the job of the recruiting centre to look for a record of your previous cadet service.



exactly just approach your former unit and sign out your blue jacket file which they willl have and bring that with you to the RC... saves alot of time...


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## FSGT Lampkin (24 May 2005)

On a side note...

Somewhere, somehow, i heard that cadet years go towards pension time....BS?

thanks in advance


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## aesop081 (24 May 2005)

FSGT Lampkin said:
			
		

> On a side note...
> 
> Somewhere, somehow, i heard that cadet years go towards pension time....BS?
> 
> thanks in advance



BS...pure and simple   :


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## Ex-Dragoon (24 May 2005)

aesop081 said:
			
		

> BS...pure and simple   :



Would have been nice though lol.


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## FSGT Lampkin (24 May 2005)

I knew it was too good to be true   . lol 7 years cadets could have done wonders lol.....along with that rumor was that RMC time went to it (makes more sense cause ur actually employed) right? 25-7-4 = 14 years ....assuming graduate at 22, full pension at 36...thats disgusting lol......oh well im staying that long a few years doesn't really make a difference does it  :warstory:


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## WO2 Gubbels (24 May 2005)

# 

# cadets who have served a minimum of two years in the rank of warrant officer and above may be granted one year qualifying time in the rank of lieutenant for promotion to the rank of captain.

  
   The above is from the first post.  I was curious, by the term warrant officer, if that counts for an army cadet warrent officer, or a air cadet warrent officer 2nd class.  The whole army/air thing has always kind of confused me, with regards that there is one more army cadet rank than air.  I'm just not sure how they match up.  When i went to Blackdown one summer for tech I was never told a definant answer about that, espcially since air cadets in blackdown were not well liked at all. 

   I retired as a Warrent Officer 2nd class and was just curious.  As a side note, I would have to agree that being a cadet is no where near the same as being in the military as mentioned.  But from what i've heard when i was on survival instructor course what we did there in manner of dialy routine, etc is very very similiar to basic training.  Just heard that from a bunch of the guys that were in the reserves at the time and  people i met furthur down the road.

  I find it hard to believe that for the air cadet listing, that either flying scholorship or two 2 week courses count towards a six-week trade or specialty course.  Obviously it is so, but just really weird.  I could see power of course, but not any of the 2 or 3 week courses, but thats just me.  

          CI Gubbels


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## Fry (24 May 2005)

I don't really understand it either, but I got 4 years and 2 2year courses done in air cadets, so I'm taking advantage of the situation


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## Spartan (25 May 2005)

I suppose once your in, you can't file for this--
Even though I mentioned it on my application, and interview, and reference letter....
 I don't think I got this placed on my file... what are the procedures and policies in trying to find out/ get it implemented? Slim to nil chance?


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## kincanucks (25 May 2005)

Spartan said:
			
		

> I suppose once your in, you can't file for this--
> Even though I mentioned it on my application, and interview, and reference letter....
> I don't think I got this placed on my file... what are the procedures and policies in trying to find out/ get it implemented? Slim to nil chance?



_Even though I mentioned it on my application, and interview, and reference letter...._ Did you provide proof?


Go to your unit orderly room and ask them.   However,:


1. General. An applicant who has served in the Cadet Forces of Canada may, on the authority of the
Commanding Officer of a CFRC, be granted 180 days of Incentive Credit (IC) towards the Pte. IPC 2 pay category provided that the applicant meets both of the following criteria:

a. completed at least three years of Cadet Service terminating within five years of the date of
applications to the CF; and

b. successfully completed a six-week occupation or specialty course. An applicant with cadet
service may be granted an equivalency in lieu of this requirement at sub para a, if the Cadet
has completed the following appropriate environmental training:

1. Army Cadets â â€œ The Master Cadet qualification is equivalent to a six-week occupation or
specialty course;

2. Sea Cadets â â€œ Two summer camp courses, each of which is at least two weeks in duration, is
considered equivalent to a six-week occupation or specialty course; or

3. Air Cadets â â€œ Two summer camp courses, each of which is at least two weeks in duration, or
a Flying Scholarship, is equivalent to a six-week occupation or specialty course.

2. The credit granted to a cadet on enrolment is a one-time recognition of the experience they have
gained throughout their cadet training. _Credit will be granted only on enrolment_ in one of the components of the CF and will not be granted on a subsequent transfer between components. Furthermore, cadet service is not eligible for inclusion when calculating Time Credit for Promotion on enrolment.


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## Michael OLeary (25 May 2005)

FAQ'd (Recruiting and Cadet Forums)


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## q_1966 (7 Mar 2006)

http://www.cadets.ca/_docs/cato-oaic/1335_b.pdf

This might be useful for any ex cadets/current cadets wanting to join the CF


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## dano (7 Mar 2006)

Its just as well they know what entitlements they have.

The CF will never let them know what they can get... Its a, if you find out, we'll give it to you.


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## Ex-Dragoon (7 Mar 2006)

This was automatic when I joined back in '89.


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## ouyin2000 (7 Mar 2006)

I believe now all you need to do is prove that you served the required time as a cadet, and completed the required courses.

I had a copy of the cover of my cadet file that I attached to my application, which had my enrollment date/aging out date, as well as my summer courses, etc.


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## Scott (7 Mar 2006)

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/12946.0.html

From the Cadet Forum FAQ's


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## Caleix (7 Mar 2006)

you know what really sucks, i left my last year of cadets to join reserves and i would have been doing staff (six week qual) goddamn......


Caleix


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## geo (7 Mar 2006)

Caleix....
The only thing that you would get would be your 1st pay incentive 6 months ahead of everyone else...... thereafter, you're riding the bus along with everyone else.

No need to get frustrated or upset about it.

Relax.... go have a coffee


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## Scott (8 Mar 2006)

Hmmm, you can age out of your Cadet "career" at 19.

You can work in the PRes until, what, 55 now - it may be older...

Methinks you'll make that little bit of cash up, sunshine.


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## geo (8 Mar 2006)

Res & Reg.... you can go thru to 60


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## Scott (8 Mar 2006)

See, thanks, thought it had changed.

Caleix: that's five more years....is that six week qual looking so good now?


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## Caleix (8 Mar 2006)

still feel stupid for leaving.....


Caleix


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## bbbb (17 Mar 2006)

It's good that they give pay incentives to former cadets who join the CF as NCMs.


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## GO!!! (17 Mar 2006)

bbbb said:
			
		

> It's good that they give pay incentives to former cadets who join the CF as NCMs.



Why?


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## geo (17 Mar 2006)

bbbb.... we're talking about the teenaged cadets - not the officer cadets coming out of RMC


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## bbbb (18 Mar 2006)

To clarify I was talking about air/army/sea cadets, not officer-cadets. I'm told a cadet refers to the air cadets etc, and that RMC 'cadets' are in fact referred to only as Officer-Cadets so when I say cadet I mean the air cadets and so on. When speaking about RMC Cadet Wing students I always refer to them as Officer-Cadets, not cadets as there is a difference.

I hope this clarifies things.


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## GO!!! (18 Mar 2006)

bbb,

Thanks for the clarification, now why are you of the opinion that it is a good idea to give IPCs to cadets who join the reg force?


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## bbbb (18 Mar 2006)

That is a good question, one that deserves an answer.

How else do you plan on getting air cadets to join the military as NCMs? Some do join, but how many of those do not have parents or relatives who were NCMs themselves? For those air cadets who age out as senior Cadet NCOs (emphasis on Cadet there to distinguish them from the real NCOs), most will want to use their leadership skills as officers, pilots or some non-military related function. Therefore getting cadets in as NCMs can be hard to do without giving them incentives.


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## bbbb (18 Mar 2006)

I will remind you that I never said that the CF NEEDED air cadets. On the contrary the CF should not actively seek out air cadets over anyone else. I was simply presenting a possible explanation for WHY the CF would have such a policy at all. Having been an Air Cadet I know for a fact that most of the ones I knew preferred joining up as an officer rather than become an NCM. It's like trying to recruit pilots to be CF pilots, if you don't give any incentives they won't apply. That's why CF pilots get more money than say army officers. That's also WHY they are called INCENTIVES-ie to get them to join!

This is starting to look like a bit of a debate now. I'm willing to end it now so this topic can focus on the original question.


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## GO!!! (18 Mar 2006)

Piper said:
			
		

> *Cadet experience does not = useful military experience * that deserves a pay incentive. Ex-police officers, paramedics, doctors, tradesmen etc who join should recieve those 'extra goodies' (if anyone should at all) since they bring a useful skill to the table.



Agreed on that one.

bbb, you are absolutely right! being an NCM is so unbelievably horrible and degrading that we must give incentives to former members of a children's club to join, before they realise what a mistake it is and try to become officers.

Seeing as our NCM recruiting system is now backed up so badly that some candidates wait a year to join and spend a year on PAT platoon after that, I would say that our recruiting efforts have seen fruition, and our training efforts need to be stepped up. We are also swamped with officers, and have, in the past, paid pilots to retire, as there is a shortage of serviceable aircraft for them. I don't think we need to convince anyone!

I've also noticed that you have posted extensively in the last few days on topics of military leadership, CF organisation and what makes a good soldier. Considering that you are not a leader, soldier or senior member of the CF, where are you getting your info from?


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## Sig_Des (18 Mar 2006)

Ah....time to sit down, grab a beer, maybe some pretzels, and watch another episode of the GO!!! Show


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## Neill McKay (19 Mar 2006)

Piper said:
			
		

> the bad habits re: drill, deportment, smart-arseness that are inevitebly learned in cadets.



Groundless and uncalled for.


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## Sig_Des (19 Mar 2006)

Piper said:
			
		

> I was in cadets, and I remember what I saw, both at the cadet corps and at summer camp.



If you ever do a basic after you've been in cadets, they'll ask you at some points if anyone did cadets.

should you choose to volunteer that information, you will be told to forget about the drill you learned as a cadet, and start anew...

and do NOT argue differences in drill with your staff


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## q_1966 (19 Mar 2006)

I posted this to help, provide information to the Cadets (Not start an argument) To cadets whos already decided to join and have there foot in the door with there application, and would of joined had this incentive not exist anyway) but because it does exist...see my point?

If I hadnt of joined cadets, my life would of been totally different, all the recruiting posters in the world doesnt recruit the way cadets does.

(Had I not joined cadets, I probably wouldnt of even looked at a recruiting poster, the way I do now) after working for a summer at VACSTC with Reservists, it sold me on joining, this is what I want to be, a CF Member and thats something a poster doesnt do.


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## ouyin2000 (19 Mar 2006)

Piper said:
			
		

> Cadet experience does not = useful military experience


It does!

Maybe not on the level that some would want it to, but cadets DOES provide a stepping stone to what the military is like. Why else would the third aim of the CCM be "Stimulate an interest in the sea, land, and air components of the Canadian Forces"?

Yes there are some bad habits that develop in cadets, but would you rather have a new recruit to the CF who knows the rank system, and knows how to follow orders and show respect to the training cadre? or would you rather have a mouthy little bugger who doesn't respect any form of authority?


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## aesop081 (19 Mar 2006)

ouyin2000 said:
			
		

> would you rather have a new recruit to the CF who knows the rank system, and knows how to follow orders and show respect to the training cadre? or would you rather have a mouthy little bugger who doesn't respect any form of authority?



I've instructed ex-cadets....i'll take the second type you mention............he/she eventualy learns to keep his/her mouth shut !!


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## ouyin2000 (19 Mar 2006)

Then you do that. I still think the pay incentive is a good idea.


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## Pea (19 Mar 2006)

Being a Cadet prior to joining the CF doesn't have benefits for the CF. I am a past cadet in the recruiting process, and I will be receiving this pay incentive upon entry. Yes this is a bonus for me, but didn't have any bearing on my decision to join. Lots of research into the CF and the MOC I have chosen to go for is what has caused me to want to join.

I do think Cadets has provided a little knowledge that will help me at first, like rank structure and uniform prep skills. However, these are small things that I would have learned at BMQ anyways. I am definitely going to go into it with a clean slate, and learn everything just like everyone else.


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## geo (19 Mar 2006)

card..... you'll be entitled to this "bonus" 6 months after joining - not upon enrollment. But it will be a few additional bucks into your pocket ahead of your peers.


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## GO!!! (19 Mar 2006)

ouyin2000 said:
			
		

> Then you do that. I still *think* the pay incentive is a good idea.



Yes, but the people here are telling you that they *know* it is a bad idea, as many of them have been in cadets and are now in different parts of the reg and reserve forces, and have instructed both former cadets and off the street civvies.

What qualifies you to question instructors with more full time military experience than your whole life and cadet career combined?

I had a few ex cadets on my basic course. I can tell you (and they later admitted) that there is nothing of value to the reg force that you learn in cadets. If anything, cadets have more problems because they have habits that need to be broken, and are not as open to correction, as many of them think that they already "know" certain things. (e.g. I watched a former cadet RSM argue over whether MCpl is an appointment or rank with our course WO - in front of the class)


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## Scott (19 Mar 2006)

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> Groundless and uncalled for.



Not when you've seen the results. Trust me, I have.



			
				Sig_Des said:
			
		

> If you ever do a basic after you've been in cadets, they'll ask you at some points if anyone did cadets.
> 
> should you choose to volunteer that information, you will be told to forget about the drill you learned as a cadet, and start anew...
> 
> and do NOT argue differences in drill with your staff



Neill, the above example is one of the things I have seen former Cadets do. Not pretty.



			
				Papke said:
			
		

> I posted this to help, provide information to the Cadets (Not start an argument) To cadets whos already decided to join and have there foot in the door with there application, and would of joined had this incentive not exist anyway) but because it does exist...see my point?
> 
> If I hadnt of joined cadets, my life would of been totally different, all the recruiting posters in the world doesnt recruit the way cadets does.
> 
> (Had I not joined cadets, I probably wouldnt of even looked at a recruiting poster, the way I do now) after working for a summer at VACSTC with Reservists, it sold me on joining, this is what I want to be, a CF Member and thats something a poster doesnt do.



If you post anything on Army.ca then you had better be prepared to debate it, you know better than that. Good for you that Cadets helped you make your decisions, I am happy for you and the countless others but what bearing does that have on incentive pay? Maybe your outfits should receive the money that you normally would for fostering this interest in the CF?



			
				ouyin2000 said:
			
		

> It does!
> 
> Maybe not on the level that some would want it to, but cadets DOES provide a stepping stone to what the military is like. Why else would the third aim of the CCM be "Stimulate an interest in the sea, land, and air components of the Canadian Forces"?
> 
> Yes there are some bad habits that develop in cadets, but would you rather have a new recruit to the CF who knows the rank system, and knows how to follow orders and show respect to the training cadre? or would you rather have a mouthy little bugger who doesn't respect any form of authority?



It does not, I base my statement on experience, do you? Great that it stimulates the interest, but it isn't the be all end all for a 12 year old - he doesn't have to join Cadets to build a good CF career.

I'd much rather have the new recruit that knew jack. That way he doesn't have any of the bad habits. Who said that  kids coming off the street with no Cadet experience are mouthy? I've seen far many more mouthy Cadets. 



			
				ouyin2000 said:
			
		

> Then you do that. I still think the pay incentive is a good idea.



You haven't given me a good reason why. You just keep saying it's a good idea.


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## ouyin2000 (19 Mar 2006)

Since all of you "gods" of the army life *know* what it is you're talking about, why don't you change the rules so former cadets don't get their pay incentive.

That would solve the problem.  :


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## Michael OLeary (19 Mar 2006)

Well, I've never really considered myself an "Army God", but if you're more comfortable thinking of me that way, I guess it's OK.

It would appear that the crux of the matter here has focussed on Scott's last remarks - in which he asked for someone to lay out the justification for the incentive.

While I have no doubt that a well conducted Cadet program, attended by a dedicated Cadet, could produce an applicant who is well-prepared to develop into a good service member.  (Please note I said service member, not soldier/sailor/airman - the first is based on basic personal attributes of self-discipline, ability to learn and adapt, and a degree of maturity; the second is based on proven performance in the technical aspects of a trade, which the cadet will not have gained.)

Unfortunately, as indicated in this thead and all too many others, there are those few (hopefully it's few) ex-Cadets who make a point of demonstrating that no matter how much they have learned, they failed to acquire the fundamental understanding that they are starting as a basic recruit - and to stay in that lane.

I don't believe anyone is working to make the case that the incentive shouldn't exist, they just want to understand that it's worth the cost - both financial and in light of the potential individual training issues that might occur when one of those less-well-prepared young citizens tries to use the argument:  Cadets get incentive pay, therefore, ex-Cadet is a better soldier.

So, to return to the core question of this debate - what would you describe as the basic justification for the incentive, from a viewpoint that remains valid in the current era and makes sense to the members (Cadet, CIC, Res F and Reg F) on this board?

Answering that would solve the "problem".


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## GGHG_Cadet (19 Mar 2006)

Is this Incentive just something that has remained intact from the 80s, when cadets used FNs, learned section attacks etc. on a frequent basis? Therefore they had some skills that would help them in the military and it made sense to give them an incentive. Then when the cadet program changed to what it is today they thought they should just keep it the way it is because it was something "nice" for the cadets. Just a speculation but maybe thats how it came to be what it is today.


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## Pea (19 Mar 2006)

geo said:
			
		

> card..... you'll be entitled to this "bonus" 6 months after joining - not upon enrollment. But it will be a few additional bucks into your pocket ahead of your peers.



Thanks Geo, I must have worded that wrong.


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## Sig_Des (19 Mar 2006)

This irritates me.

So I join at the same time as someone...We do our BMQ together. He mouths off whenever he gets a chance in "I was a MWO in Cadets"...."That Drill movement is wrong Cpl, that's not how I learned it in Cadets", etc..

Well, nobody in my section cried more than this kid. That includes a room full of girls. Kid opens his mouth, has a show parade. We had to dress him. He just stood there and cried.

"Private.... I though you said you were a cadet? These boots are S***!" he cried.

Got a lower mark on a weekly evaluation than he thought he would.... he cried.

Now, back at unit. This kid can get his incentive 6 months before the top student on that BMQ...for WHAT?

What does this former cadet bring of value to the CF that would entitle him to incentive, or in the reserve as is this case, PROMOTION, before someone who has performed better than him?

Knowledge of rank? former drill experience? ability to shine boots and make beds? You mean, things that they teach you anyway?

I'm not saying all cadets are like this, this was an individual, but this whole incentive thing goes against, give someone something when they earn it. This is a case in point.

Now, you want to give an incentive to a former civvy paramedic? Police officer? Pilot ? Mechanic? You'll hear no complaints from me.

But, he/she was in cadets? I'd rather see an incentive for someone who's played hockey for 3 years in the last 5.

*rant off*


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## geo (19 Mar 2006)

Sig des....yup some cadets mouth off.... and become a magnet for all the negative attention of the instructors.... you should have it easier +/-

Not all cadets are so lippy and most learn real quick that it does not pay to be the Know it all.... cause, the same way mouthy reservists are put into their place by Regs.... the Cadets get it both barrels from both Reg & Res

Does that merit the IPC in advance =- not really.... but it is CF policy and neither you nor I can change it's application.

Take a valium and relax

Chimo!


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## Scott (20 Mar 2006)

I want to clarify my stance on this matter:

I was asking for justification of the program. I don't care if you get it or not, I really don't - whether you're getting more money or not you will get sorted out if you are a tool, either on course or at the unit level.

What I have seen from the Cadets and CIC, with the exception of maybe bbbb (don't agree with him but he tried), are groundless reasons for the program to exist and statements as unbelievable as this:



> Cadet experience does not = useful military experience


then


> It does!



Show me _how_ this could possibly be true based on your experience in both Cadets and the CF.

I don't disagree with Michael's thoughts that the Cadet program could produce a well motivated and prepared applicant for the CF but I don't believe that it is a necessary step. I don't think you can guarantee that person's desire to make it and I don't think you can guarantee the results. My point is that when it comes time for training I believe that the guy off the street has just as much a shot as the Cadet X five years. 

I was a Cadet for five years and then progressed into the PRes, I didn't even enquire about this program because I had zero clue about it. I went rhough my BMQ with about 75 people, 15 who were former Cadets and the only few I noticed were the ones who made themselves noticeable by mouthing off, screwing up, crying or quitting a week in. Yeah there were plenty of other people there, who hadn't been in Cadets, that mouthed off, screwed up, cried or quit in a week. The difference between the two is the guys from right off the street weren't telling you how good they were, they weren't expecting it to be easy, they didn't think they knew it all. Does this make sense?

I took my father's advice when I went to my BMQ and to every subsequent course I have ever done: Play the gray man, drive the body and do not open your mouth. 

To repeat, I am just looking for justification of the program, that is all. If you can prove it then I would support it, I haven't seen the proof yet.


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## Pea (20 Mar 2006)

As a past cadet in the recruiting process I have been trying to find a way to justify this incentive. I had never really thought of it before, it was just something the recruiter told me I qualified for. Any hey, extra money in my pocket at some time, who am I to complain?

I decided to speak to a friend of mine who was in my cadet corps, who has now been in the forces for a year and a half. 

When he went through his basic training there were a few things he found were useful from cadets.

1. He knew the rank structure, who to call who and so on.
2. Already possessed good uniform prep skills
3. Drill, he knew how to do all the drill already, and never caught flack for "sloppy cadet drill"
4. Map & Compass, we learn up to the 6 figure grid reference in cadets so he had the basic understanding and found it easy to expand on this. He was asked to help mentor other recruits who were having trouble, because they noticed he picked it up no problem.
5. I figure he must have possessed some good leadership skills because he was made course senior (term?) on more than a few occasions, and was complimented by his staff on more than one occasion. (not bugged for being an ex-cadet)

These are the things I can remember from when he went through basic training. I would say these were all things that definitely helped him in basic training. I'll be the first to admit he was an exceptional cadet, and the kind who knew to keep his mouth shut about it. Maybe he was just a great recruit, who knows.

Does this merit being given a pay incentive? I am not sure. However, I hope having this past experience as well, will help me do well in basic too.


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## Neill McKay (20 Mar 2006)

The common argument against this scheme seems to be that former cadets don't bring any skills to the table that they wouldn't otherwise learn by the end of BMQ.  I would suggest that what cadets have over other candidates has more to do with an understanding of military culture that Joe Civvie doesn't necessarily have.  A cadet has already shown that he can function in a structured quasi-military environment.  He also has (if he was in cadets for more anything close to the full seven years) some decent leadership training, as already noted by others.  While Pte Bloggins doesn't lead very much, having a knowledge of leadership makes one a better follower, and a better team member.

There are of course going to be utter numpties and attitude cases who join the Forces after some time as cadets.  But there are some of those who join off the street as well.  For a given individual, with all other factors being equal, I think half a dozen years in the cadet programme would make for a better service member at least initially.

Mind you, nobody here (including me) seems to know if the bit of extra money is really intended to reflect the skills of former cadets at all.  It may very well have been conceived as a small hook to get cadets to look more seriously at joining the Forces (similar to the various signing bonuses for doctors and such, but quite a bit smaller).  If that's the case, and if it works, then so much the better.


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## Scott (20 Mar 2006)

Card_11 said:
			
		

> As a past cadet in the recruiting process I have been trying to find a way to justify this incentive. I had never really thought of it before, it was just something the recruiter told me I qualified for. Any hey, extra money in my pocket at some time, who am I to complain?
> 
> I decided to speak to a friend of mine who was in my cadet corps, who has now been in the forces for a year and a half.
> 
> ...



In bold, what I haven't noticed anyone say so far. I had been hoping someone would lay that one down because I do agree with it. If you are the ex-Cadet going into a BMQ section with people who have not had the benefit of that experience then I believe it to be incumbent upon that person to help the others. As a Staff member, I would be watching that former Cadet very closely. Does s/he help others or just pay attention to their own kit? Does s/he add to the team over and above what most recruits do because of this persons past? Does s/he warrant that extra money?

Only after answering these questions positively would I consider the former Cadet for a bump in pay, at that time maybe they would have earned it?

I have never said that the ex Cadet doesn't bring anything valuable to the table, they certainly do bring _some_ worthwhile experiences and I won't try to say otherwise. But on the grand scheme of things it is not really that much. But, if this person shows the willingness to help their peers while keeping their tongue in check about their time in Cadets I wouldn't begrudge them the extra pay.

The problem lies with the former Cadet who does nothing to help his buddies, undermines their training by mouthing off to his buddies about "his experience" and challenges the Staff.

Again, I was  Cadet for five years and I can recall figuring out on Day number one that this was not Cadets and that I had better be there to learn, not to show what I had learned.


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## Pea (20 Mar 2006)

Scott said:
			
		

> In bold, what I haven't noticed anyone say so far. I had been hoping someone would lay that one down because I do agree with it. If you are the ex-Cadet going into a BMQ section with people who have not had the benefit of that experience then I believe it to be incumbent upon that person to help the others. As a Staff member, I would be watching that former Cadet very closely. Does s/he help others or just pay attention to their own kit? Does s/he add to the team over and above what most recruits do because of this persons past? Does s/he warrant that extra money?
> 
> *Only after answering these questions positively would I consider the former Cadet for a bump in pay, at that time maybe they would have earned it*?
> 
> I have never said that the ex Cadet doesn't bring anything valuable to the table, they certainly do bring _some_ worthwhile experiences and I won't try to say otherwise. But on the grand scheme of things it is not really that much. But, if this person shows the willingness to help their peers while keeping their tongue in check about their time in Cadets I wouldn't begrudge them the extra pay.



Thanks Scott. That is what I was trying to get at. If I go in with prior knowledge like I explained my friend had, and I am in turn able to help new recruits who may be struggling with things, am I not helping the CF in some way? I believe so. If I can help say two recruits have a better uniform and a few others understand some map & compass that they were struggling with, then I think I am being somewhat useful to the system. Sure, I am only making a small difference, but is it not still a difference?



			
				Scott said:
			
		

> The problem lies with the former Cadet who does nothing to help his buddies, undermines their training by mouthing off to his buddies about "his experience" and challenges the Staff.



Yes, there will be some former cadets who will get this incentive and will turn out to be complete turds. This happens all the time in other organizations too. I know of at least 2 people my company has hired because of "past experiences" that have turned out to be complete wastes of time and energy. But, should we just stop offering bonuses because of the chance a few idiots will benefit from it? 

I really liked the comment you made that I have highlighted in bold. Maybe the solution to the issue is that one needs to be evaluated, say at the end of basic training, to see if they should qualify for this incentive? Just a thought.


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## Scott (20 Mar 2006)

For clarity, from the CFAO's:



> b.   A former cadet of any of the Canadian cadet organizations who has
> completed three years as a cadet within the previous five years,
> during which time the cadet has passed a six-week trade or
> specialty course, shall be enrolled as Pte (R) and be granted a
> ...



http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/006-01_e.asp


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## Neill McKay (20 Mar 2006)

Piper said:
			
		

> Your missing the point. Pay incentives should only be given for people joining with needed skills. There is nothing (save drill and the rank structure) in cadets you can't learn/get elsewhere. I don't see why it's a 'good idea' to try to recruit cadets. We need people, whether they are cadets or not.



I don't understand why you're saying this when you've quoted my post above.  You haven't even tried to address my points.



> Well that essentially sums up my argument. Maybe their experience is useful to a limited extent, but in the grand scheme of things, its not really that much.



Nor is the increase in pay really that much -- six months early getting a one-IPC increase.  Something tells me that a cost-benefit analysis would indicate that the Crown isn't getting too badly screwed by the deal.



> I say that from (limited) experience.



I'd be interested in knowing what, in your experience, has so soured you towards the cadet programme that you take every opportunity you can to look down your nose at it.


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## Neill McKay (20 Mar 2006)

Piper said:
			
		

> I am not soured towards the cadet program. I have a distaste for those who would seem to say that being in cadets somehow entitles you to special benefits above others. It's a youth group, pure and simple. You get to do some cool stuff and play pretend soldier sometimes and go to summer camp, all good things. But it is not anything so special as to make you more deserving of 'goodies' then others. I see cadets for what it is, I don't understand why some don't.



The cadet programme is largely what the officers and cadets in each unit make of it, with a wide spectrum between the best and the worst.  Perhaps you didn't get lucky -- but realize that some units turn out some pretty impressive cadets who I suspect would easily go into a career in the Forces well ahead of the crowd.


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## q_1966 (20 Mar 2006)

Piper said:
			
		

> And for the record,*I was a member of an excellent cadet corps for my last 2 years* and had a hoot, met some good friends and met some excellent officers (and some I wanted to throat-punch). I had a blast, but I am under no illusions about what it was, it was a fun time and a way to see some of Canada (I got to go to Alberta twice). It was a great time and cadets is an EXCELLENT youth program . But it is not something that put me ahead of my peers by any meaningful margin during basic.



What was your first couple of years like, how long were you in Cadets?


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## Scott (20 Mar 2006)

OK, let's not keep repeating the same thing over and over. Everybody knows where some in this thread and I am looking for new ideas to debate, not the same 'o', same 'o' that has been carrying on for some time.

I go back to this:


			
				Scott said:
			
		

> In bold, what I haven't noticed anyone say so far. I had been hoping someone would lay that one down because I do agree with it. If you are the ex-Cadet going into a BMQ section with people who have not had the benefit of that experience then I believe it to be incumbent upon that person to help the others. As a Staff member, I would be watching that former Cadet very closely. Does s/he help others or just pay attention to their own kit? Does s/he add to the team over and above what most recruits do because of this persons past? Does s/he warrant that extra money?
> 
> Only after answering these questions positively would I consider the former Cadet for a bump in pay, at that time maybe they would have earned it?
> 
> ...


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## Sig_Des (20 Mar 2006)

geo said:
			
		

> Sig des....yup some cadets mouth off.... and become a magnet for all the negative attention of the instructors.... you should have it easier +/-
> 
> Does that merit the IPC in advance =- not really.... but it is CF policy and neither you nor I can change it's application.
> 
> ...



Geo, you're right as per the norm.....

I hate getting sucked into posting in the Cadet forum, but I really personally disagree with this policy..

Either way, as you said, it's not my place or yours, so I'll grit my teeth and soldier on....and probably ignore this thread for fear of getting torqued up again.


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## warrickdll (20 Mar 2006)

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> ...
> Mind you, nobody here (including me) seems to know if the bit of extra money is really intended to reflect the skills of former cadets at all.  It may very well have been conceived as a small hook to get cadets to look more seriously at joining the Forces...



It is a good point - without knowing the intention it is difficult to fully discuss the topic. Then again, as long as we are aware of the unknowns...

Some have pointed out that - if the training received in cadets had direct military application you would be able to skip basic - or something similar. 

But what about cadets who receive the jump course; shouldn't they receive at least a couple of week's credit? 

Are there any other courses cadets take that have direct applications?


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## Scott (20 Mar 2006)

Now that would require some heavy duty searching and someone (I am thinking CIC) with some contacts. I am curious to know.

Not to draw too many comparisons, because it is like apples and bowling balls, but PRes pers who do 180+ Class B days are Recruit School bypasses when going RegF, are they not? They were when I was in. Also, a few years back when I threw my hat in the ring for fun, they still credited my TI with the Mo - meaning I would have still skipped St Jean, that has all since changed, IIRC, with the new course structure. FWIW

Iterator, I did my 3's with a guy who had his Cadet jump wings. He was allowed to wear them on his uniform but that was the only thing he received that the rest of us did not.

But why give credit for certain courses? A kid who did an ATC course in Air Cadets going Army, should he get credit? Should he get credit if he goes ATC? Just as an example mind you...

A new can of worms.


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## ouyin2000 (20 Mar 2006)

Iterator said:
			
		

> Are there any other courses cadets take that have direct applications?


To some extent yes. I'm not sure about the direct CF application, but there are definitely some civilian applications.

For example, an air cadet can attain their civilian pilot's license, sea cadets can receive their radio operator's license, army cadets can receive their basic para wings.


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## PViddy (20 Mar 2006)

Interesting thread.  Let me just say, that i can defiantely see both sides of the fence here but i think Mr. McKay had a good point.  i think when you get down to the dollars and cents, the CF would probably still be the winner.  Verbally hammer me Army.ca style if i am wrong, but isn't the point of the IPC increase because a fromer Cadet would be less of a burden on the training system, however miniscule? be it, already acustomed to a taste of military life, the 3 D's or by helping other recruits ? I mean yes, absolutley it has to do with what Squadron or Corps you come from, their are some usless ones simply said.

The Cadet program does teach a lot of Leadership, the orders process, map and compass, PT blah blah.  Consequently, one of the aims of the Cadet movement is to "instill an interest in the [insert element] of the Canadian Forces, you have to think that Dcadets and the recruiting people have obviously talked about this to set this policy ? 

Really, IMHO, i don't see the big deal about Cadets getting an increased IPC, i think a recruit with cadet experience is a better asset to his platoon and the CF.  Yes, everybody get's taught the same, maybe it's outside of the classroom that counts, when the intructors are not there, that little shred of help, hint or advice.

Lastly, comparing Cadets to boy scouts is rediculous and are only similiar because both conduct training outdoors and that's speaking from direct experience.  

My take on it, not gospel until we figure the exact reason as to *why* cadets get an IPC increase, i guess we can agree to disagree ?

cheers

PV


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## Scott (20 Mar 2006)

Mr Viddy,

The main point of concern for me is *why*. And I still see no very good reasons posted here. However, I don't administer the program, someone smarter than me does, they must have their reasons. Hopefully they join the site and put an end to this.

I still think the increase should be earned no matter how small and I do not think that time + courses in Cadets is earning it. Time in the CF doing the job and proving yourself not to be a thud would be earning it in my eye. I am not about anyone getting anything for nothing. I was already a firefighter for a few years when I got hired full time, did I get an increase in pay over the other guys in my recruit class? Hell no. I got my first raise based on my contributions to the team, not because I had some TI and courses. Maybe it's a bad comparison but it's the only one I can draw.

Once again, I just want to see it justified and earned, not given away.



			
				Neill McKay said:
			
		

> Nor is the increase in pay really that much -- six months early getting a one-IPC increase.  Something tells me that a cost-benefit analysis would indicate that the Crown isn't getting too badly screwed by the deal.



Missed that one earlier and I agree.


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## PViddy (20 Mar 2006)

Scott,

as usual you make a good point.  ohhh Firefighter talk, i understand that! haha.  

Yes, i agree tthat maybe it should be earned...institute a challenge test first week of BMQ or somthing ? just thoughts.


cheers

PV


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## GO!!! (20 Mar 2006)

Of course, if we really wanted to, we could ask, if Cadets supposedly makes a better soldier, why is there no credit granted at RMC, or towards an officer rank? Why do cadets not get priority for placement at RMC? Why does their time only "count" in the enlisted ranks?

Answer: Because they bring nothing to the table that cannot be taught in a week or two at BOTC.


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## Scott (20 Mar 2006)

Good point, GO!! Begs the question of someone like kincanucks though: Does it help on the RMC application? Would some of these 6 week courses they can take help? Example: An Air Cadet who has done ATC.

Not comparing an ATC summer camp to the trade course - Apples and Bowling Balls. Just asking if _maybe_ a kid who had done this, had a good record, good marks, was altogether a suitable candidate for RMC, would they be given preference because of the experiences they got through Cadets?

GO!! does raise very interesting questions, I must say.

More cans, more worms.


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## ouyin2000 (20 Mar 2006)

Reading through this thread again has given me a new light on the subject.

I still think it is a good idea (probably because I am one of the individuals entitled to the bonus).

Maybe since there is so much controversy, the plan should be reviewed yb whichever higher ups make the rules. I believe there is already an incentive in place for cadets who progress on to become a CIC officer right away after they age out. Maybe leave that plan in place, since that is the portion of the CF that will benefit the most from a cadet who spent a few years in, since they already (typically) know the leadership and structure of a cadet unit.


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## PViddy (20 Mar 2006)

> I believe there is already an incentive in place for cadets who progress on to become a CIC officer right away after they age out.



Negative.  The only inkling of credit you will get on your basic is out of a couple of Drill classes if you meet that standard for the incredibly hard  :  "challenge test" .

cheers

PV


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## ouyin2000 (20 Mar 2006)

Well I stand corrected.

Maybe someone needs to rethink this whole thing? Let's hope the new gov't will, with their new CF budget.


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## Neill McKay (21 Mar 2006)

Piper said:
			
		

> You learn drill, ranks and how to shine boots...those are the only transferrable skills you get.



I've mentioned other things, but you keep ignoring them.  It's not all about "job skills" and checking off EOs.  It's about less tangible personal charcteristics, similar to how university teaches you more than the nuts and bolts of what's on the pages of your final exams.


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## Neill McKay (21 Mar 2006)

Piper said:
			
		

> I agree. Cadets can teach you these things. But it is not the 'end all' for these skills. What about the kid that was a camp councillor for three summers before he joined, or worked at the YMCA as a sports instructor etc etc? That applicant does not get a pay incentive.



The Forces know about the cadet programme and in fact deliver it (and further, do so in a way that aims to emulate the Forces in many ways).   Would you have a new directorate set up in NDHQ to evaluate every other youth programme in the country to assess the usefulness of its alumni to the Forces?

The powers that be think cadets are worth a special measure to attract as prospective CF members, or they believe that former cadets generally make better service members (or whatever the motive turns out to be) so they provide a modest financial bonus.  Never have I seen Service members argue so presistently about some of their mates getting a bit of something extra in their pockets.


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## bbbb (21 Mar 2006)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> If you ever do a basic after you've been in cadets, they'll ask you at some points if anyone did cadets.
> 
> should you choose to volunteer that information, you will be told to forget about the drill you learned as a cadet, and start anew...
> 
> and do NOT argue differences in drill with your staff



Well said! I found the real drill instructors (meaning the CF ones) were very professional and superior in their drill and in their instruction of drill. We actually had a guy who tried to tell the drill instructor that he was wrong about some drill movements. He was lazy and didn't want to do them so he tried to dilude the drills. The instructor was very persistent and the lazy man backed down.

Keep up the good work CF drill instructors! Don't let any student correct you!


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## Neill McKay (21 Mar 2006)

bbbb said:
			
		

> Keep up the good work CF drill instructors! Don't let any student correct you!



'Cause nothing's better than an instructor who thinks he's infallible, right? 

Drill instructors have the same capacity to make mistakes as everyone else.  But there's a time and a place to bring it up, and that's outside of the class (and privately), not during the class.  The drill manual even goes as far as to provide that bit of direction.


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## PViddy (21 Mar 2006)

> Well said! I found the real drill instructors (meaning the CF ones) were very professional and superior in their drill and in their instruction of drill. We actually had a guy who tried to tell the drill instructor that he was wrong about some drill movements. He was lazy and didn't want to do them so he tried to dilude the drills. The instructor was very persistent and the lazy man backed down.
> 
> Keep up the good work CF drill instructors! Don't let any student correct you!



Dude, let me know the next time somone tries to correct the Course RSM on the 201 on your BOQ.  I wanna be there to watch!

cheers

PV


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## PViddy (21 Mar 2006)

> Students DO NOT ever correct an instructor. Ever. Not publicy, not privately. It is not their place, I've seen it done and it never ends well. Again, maybe it happened on your CIC course, but not on any basic I've been on (I got 'lucky' and got to do two, one as an NCO and one as an officer candidate).



oh ya, what if it was a safety issue for your platoon ? you wouldn't approach the instructor after class for clarrification ?  :-\

cheers

PV


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## PViddy (22 Mar 2006)

Well, i'll use my head if you show better literary intent.  No, i don't know what you mean, any half wit can post on this board, and we all know the assumption is the mother of all....well you know.  Thanks for clarrification regarding your post.  please continue posting in the Cadet/CIC forum, your atttitude towards certain topics is a sure fire hit, i'm sure  :

warmest regards,

PV


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## Michael OLeary (22 Mar 2006)

Gentlemen, if you cannot post without insults, then please refrain from posting until you can.  A lilttle civility goes a long way to presenting a worthwhile example to the young Cadets who frequesnt this forum.

Thank you.


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## Burrows (22 Mar 2006)

Adding on to what Mr. O'Leary said, reiterating the same points and calling people names isn't going to look good.  Yes it can be hard to be sarcastic over the internet, that doesn't mean be condescending.


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## Biggins (22 Mar 2006)

Cadets receive incentives for prior training, though the policy doesn't state specifically what training. I think that should be changed. An example; if the cadet is trained as Marine Engineer and decides to go into the CF as a Marine Engineer then they should be given credit for allready having some of the skills and experience in their chosen trade. But if you have a cadet musician going into infantry then he/she gets the same as everyone else. How many 18 - 19 year old non-cadets have up 6 years of military type training. 

Based on personal experience my training as a sea cadet made basic a bit easier, though I kept my mouth shut and did what I was told. The majority of my sea cadet skills came into play after BMQ when I went to fleet school to learn how to be in the Navy. Alot of what they teach at fleet school was covered in the various camps and exercises that I did as a cadet. At this point I took initiative and helped the people that didn't know what to do without being a cocky bastard. It's all in how you present yourself. 

Is the incentive a good idea? As long as DND supports the cadet program then offering them an incentive to become a member of the CF is only logical. Should the incentive go to every cadet that meets the requirements of the policy? Nope, definately not. The incentive should be a reward for good service and performance. Thay is why the policy needs to be changed.


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## Burrows (22 Mar 2006)

Biggins, I assume that at one time you were a Naval Weapons Tech, and are now in the CIC.

Correct?


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## Biggins (22 Mar 2006)

yes!


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## Biggins (23 Mar 2006)

kincanucks said:
			
		

> _When you are at the recruiting centre, let them know exactly what you have done in the past._
> 
> And be able to prove it.  It is not the job of the recruiting centre to look for a record of your previous cadet service.



Quite the contrary. If you state on your enrollment forms what unit you belonged to and it's longer than say two years the recruiting center will send a letter to the unit requesting a copy of the relevant cadet docs. The unit should have at the minimum a copy of the folder that has your record of service/camps/and ranks acheived. The sea cadet SCC5 is all the recruiting center wants to see. I'm not sure what it is in Air or Army but that's all we send them when they request docs.


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## Disenchantedsailor (16 Jun 2007)

Just in skimming over the previous years of posts and have the following points to add

Cadet time is pensionable (there is a discalimer to that, only 6 week courses/staff cadet employment counts)
2 While you may be granted up to 180 days towards and IPC, you will not be granted TCP (time credit for promotion) on enrollment, unless of course you were a CIC Offr, (a sub component of the primary reserve, ie a CF Mbr) in the same manner as a PRes mbr 1 for 1 class b/c 4 for 1 class a.

this is due largely to the fact that after WWII Canada signed a treaty saying we would not train children as soldiers, it requires extreme amounts of staff work getting waivers just to allow CIC Offrs to fire service weapons as delta trg during the recruiting process to entice them to transfer to the PRES or Reg Force

My 2 Cents


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## geo (17 Jun 2007)

Cadet time is pensionable?
would you have a reference?
Given that they have rewritten the pension act & created a Reserve force pension plan,  I have pored over it's details at length, I am confused.... did not see any provision for cadet service.  Where do you get your information from?  

Also, reserve force time is no longer  based on a 4 to 1 ratio.
If there is time that cannot be documented for some reason, it is 4 to 1 but, otherwise - class B & C is based on 1 for 1 and the class A time is based on 1 to 1.4

WRT CIC Officers - they may have a commission scroll that says they are a reserve force officer - but , don't try to parlay that into employment as a commissioned officer in the Reg or reserve force.


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## Disenchantedsailor (17 Jun 2007)

Ir you'll read the post with a little more detail I'm not trying to say that the service of a CIC officer is that of a PRes or Regular officer only that TCP is granted as they are mbr's of the military, although not employed in a manner that may bring them into active service they are still mbrs of the CF, do not take that away from them. (and no I am not a CIC Offr). The info for buying back staff cadet time is outdated as I'll admit I havent fully read the new pension act, it doesn't affect me much (grandfathered on an i.e. 20) I'm curious to know when they changed the policy of 4 to 1 to 1.4 to 1 for TCP though and if its retroactive (may help from back in the 90's)


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## geo (17 Jun 2007)

.... sorry - should read twice and write once.... 

WRT reserve time on class A.  The new pension plan for reservists came into force on March 1st.
Class C & B is on a 1 for 1.  (Combat arms reservists on class C can component transfer in their current rank to the regs - ie, a Res WO can be a Reg WO after his tour)...

Serving reservists are eligible for the Pension buy back & they can buy back all their time - up to 35 yrs).
Those reservists who are out... unfortunately do not qualify... though reservists releasing in the last 18 months were, as a matter of course, transfered to the Supplementary reserve... allowing them to opt for the pension - prior to their ultimate release.


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## Disenchantedsailor (17 Jun 2007)

now is the new reconing time calculation solely for the pension and buybacks or is it also linke to time credit for promotion (excluding the CBT Arms CT policy for Cl C Reservists)


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## geo (17 Jun 2007)

we're talking about pensionable service - did not say anything about time in rank and eligibility for promotion....

WRT rank - as I stated previously, combat arms reservists who serve Cl C service on operations in Afghanistan are entitled to a CT to the Regs in the rank they wore in Afghanistan.  If you serve in theatre as a WO IPC3, then you will CT to WO IPC3.  If you are deployed as a Cpl IPC2, then Cpl IPC2 for your CT.


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## armyvern (17 Jun 2007)

ArtyNewbie said:
			
		

> Cadet time is pensionable (there is a discalimer to that, only 6 week courses/staff cadet employment counts)
> 2 While you may be granted up to 180 days towards and IPC, you will not be granted TCP (time credit for promotion) on enrollment, unless of course you were a CIC Offr, (a sub component of the primary reserve, ie a CF Mbr) in the same manner as a PRes mbr 1 for 1 class b/c 4 for 1 class a.



That would be exactly the way it was when I joined the CF. At that time though, all 6 week staff positions counted, but I believe only certain 6 week courses qualified towards the IPC.

I was granted a full 180 days towards IPC, and zero TCP.

My courses were:

CLI at Argonaut;
Athletic Leadership at CFB Borden; and
Arctic Indoctrination at Valcartier/Baffin Island (with RegF members of the CAR as my instructors ~ I actually had to choose that year between the Arctic Indoc or the Basic Para, in any case I ended up seeing those maroon berets...and liking them!!).

I also served as PERI staff at Camp Argonaut.


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## Neill McKay (18 Jun 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> WRT CIC Officers - they may have a commission scroll that says they are a reserve force officer - but , don't try to parlay that into employment as a commissioned officer in the Reg or reserve force.



(Assuming your second reference to "reserve force" is intended to mean Primary Reserve.)

Where's the harm in trying?  If a person is doing a CT from CIC to something else then it only makes sense to take advantage of his service to date if there's an opportunity to under the applicable regulations -- wouldn't you say?


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## geo (18 Jun 2007)

The loopholes have pert much all been closed but, if you want to give it a shot... go ahead & fill your boots


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## Disenchantedsailor (18 Jun 2007)

keeping in mind all the IPC acceleration is doing is increasing the amount of time we pay someone as a Pte/4, we're not accelerating promotion based on previously gained military skills to give the mbr a leg up, simply paying them a wee bit more a wee bit sooner than thier peers, once they're all Cpl's it doesn't matter anymore they all get paid the same (basic rate of pay), aside from the CIC, who lets face are mbr's of the military (no discussion on the military quals) and if time can be reconed up to a maximun why not (we have to set a ceiling otherwise a 28 yo Captain with 10 years as a CIC would CT as a Sr Lt with no military skills)


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## gwp (2 Aug 2008)

ArtyNewbie said:
			
		

> keeping in mind all the IPC acceleration is doing is increasing the amount of time we pay someone as a Pte/4, we're not accelerating promotion based on previously gained military skills to give the mbr a leg up, simply paying them a wee bit more a wee bit sooner than thier peers, once they're all Cpl's it doesn't matter anymore they all get paid the same (basic rate of pay), aside from the CIC, who lets face are mbr's of the military (no discussion on the military quals) and if time can be reconed up to a maximun why not (we have to set a ceiling otherwise a 28 yo Captain with 10 years as a CIC would CT as a Sr Lt with no military skills)


When it comes to human resources the CF will do what is in the best interests of the CF. There are policies and procedures for component/sub-component transfer regardless of the component sub-component. Not with standing any bias created by the artificial pecking order that often colours this discussion.  ie. a 28 year old Capt with 10 years as CIC who is a medical doctor for example may be component transferred straight across.  That person will be trained to the required military skills that are not a requirement of the sub-component occupation.

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/DAOD/5002/3_e.asp

There are hundreds of RegF personnel in what would be described as "non-combat arms" employment who have done their job domestically for several years and any currency in their basic military training has expired. That is why pre-deployment training is so important and as long as it is. 

The moratorium that was placed on CF members of the CIC not being employed outside of the cadet organization was brought about when it was discovered that Primary Reserve Units were employing (and paying) the officers that supervised their affiliated cadet corps inappropriately.  (i.e. a person acting as an artillery spotter after a short briefing.)  

The authority to employ CF CIC officers outside of the Cadet Organization now rests with DGRC/DCdts on a case by case basis. It is approved for short term assignments when it makes sense, the cadet program will not be disadvantaged and the individual is currently employed with the CF and has the required skills/training.  For long term assignments a component transfer from the CIC to the PRes is encouraged the terms of which are negotiable iaw the reference above.


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## Snakedoc (12 Aug 2008)

MCG said:
			
		

> *From CFAO 49-12 -- PROMOTION POLICY -OFFICERS -PRIMARY RESERVE*
> *ANNEX A -- MINIMUM QUALIFYING TIME IN RANK FOR ENTRY TO PROMOTION ZONE FOR NEXT HIGHER RANK*
> 
> 2.             Qualifying time for entry to the promotion zone for the next higher rank is reckoned from the date of seniority in the present rank, except that:
> ...



Since there was a post recently on this topic again, I thought I'd revive this topic a bit to see if anyone know's the answers to a couple questions.  I've read the past year's post on this subject and someone once asked the question if the rank of warrant officer here is in reference to the army cadet rank and if so, what would be the equivalent air and sea cadet rank for the purpose of this policy.  I was wondering if anyone has found out the answer to this as I do not believe I saw a post in response to this question.

In addition, for PRes officers to take advantage of this promotion policy, is there a specific application process (at enrollment or after enrollment?) or is it as long as you have your past cadet records in your pers file, this policy will be automatically applied?


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## gwp (12 Aug 2008)

Snakedoc said:
			
		

> Since there was a post recently on this topic again, I thought I'd revive this topic a bit to see if anyone know's the answers to a couple questions.  I've read the past year's post on this subject and someone once asked the question if the rank of warrant officer here is in reference to the army cadet rank and if so, what would be the equivalent air and sea cadet rank for the purpose of this policy.  I was wondering if anyone has found out the answer to this as I do not believe I saw a post in response to this question.





Yes - Cadet rank equivelancies apply.



> In addition, for PRes officers to take advantage of this promotion policy, is there a specific application process (at enrollment or after enrollment?) or is it as long as you have your past cadet records in your pers file, this policy will be automatically applied?



The CFAO says "may".  Not likely automatic.  Accelerated promotion would still have to be recommended/justified by the CO and supported by proof of cadet service.     Check with your chain of command.  If you feel strongly that you deserve it you could probably formally question the decision.


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## Neill McKay (12 Aug 2008)

Snakedoc said:
			
		

> I've read the past year's post on this subject and someone once asked the question if the rank of warrant officer here is in reference to the army cadet rank and if so, what would be the equivalent air and sea cadet rank for the purpose of this policy.



The equivalent sea and air cadet ranks to warrant officer are petty officer first class and flight sergeant.


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## littlelizzard (6 Sep 2008)

HollywoodHitman said:
			
		

> This is scary in it's own right. I was a cadet for 5 years, and was only moderately more qualified to be there (basic training) than some of my peers. There are still MANY things that one learns on their Basic Course that is not covered in Cadets. The biggest things that will give a Cadet a leg up are simply the rank familiarisation and the drill and ceremonial.
> 
> I am also fully qualified to say that the Cadets of today, are NOT the Cadets of 14 years ago........As the Cadets when I was in, were not the Cadets of generations previous to us.
> 
> Not to say that they're not good at what they do, just that they are different than they used to be. The whole Cadet movement is different, with different aims. It is FAR less military now, than at any time in the past.


If I was standing in front of you right now we would be doing the HIGH FIVE STEP , you are so right about this one! Cheers


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## geo (7 Sep 2008)

Cadets of today have been "demilitarized" because the parents of today have put pressure on the cadet movement & the military to be just that.  Not really the Cadets or the CICs fault - it's just where "society" is taking them.


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## Neill McKay (11 Sep 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Cadets of today have been "demilitarized" because the parents of today have put pressure on the cadet movement & the military to be just that.  Not really the Cadets or the CICs fault - it's just where "society" is taking them.



In what forum have you seen this pressure?


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## gaspasser (11 Sep 2008)

Many moons ago, in the before time, I asked higher to look into my 6 years as a cadet and 3 years in the reserves.  The answer I got back in those days was...2 years and 243 days added towards my CD ! Plus I had to pay back  2 years and 243 days worth of pension.  But like I was told by some good friends before I went to Cornwallis, DON'T tell anyone that you were in cadet or the reserves, the DS know and don't want any know-it-alls around. Your experience will speak for itself in kit, dress, drill and deportment.  
I guess times have changed... ^-^


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## armyvern (11 Sep 2008)

BYT Driver said:
			
		

> Many moons ago, in the before time, I asked higher to look into my 6 years as a cadet and 3 years in the reserves.  The answer I got back in those days was...2 years and 243 days added towards my CD ! Plus I had to pay back  2 years and 243 days worth of pension.  But like I was told by some good friends before I went to Cornwallis, DON'T tell anyone that you were in cadet or the reserves, the DS know and don't want any know-it-alls around. Your experience will speak for itself in kit, dress, drill and deportment.
> I guess times have changed... ^-^



I guarantee you that most of that time credited came from your ResF time ... NOT your cadet time.

The max a cadet could be credited with was 180 days towards PAY, not promotion and NOT pension, and that was provided the cadet had advanced courses and time as an instructor.

When I joined, I had 6 years in Army Cadets. I had the CLI Course, the Athletic Leadership Course (from Borden), and the Artic Indoctrination Course (Run by staff from the CAR; Valcartier {first 3 weeks} with a further 4 weeks spent in Ayuktuk National Park, Nunavut 'surviving'). I spent the last two years of my "cadet time" employed as PERI staff at Camp Argonaut. I was also a "Gold Star with Wreath". All of these factors were considered and my file shipped off to Borden for determination.

I was credited with 6 months advance towards pay, but not promotion (cadet time does not count towards promotions). NO pension was paidback for this 6 months as cadet time is NOT, nor has it ever been, pensionable service.

I bet, if you check your file ... you'll see that your credited time (pension etc) came from your ResF service. You may have asked your CoC to look into your cadet time and your ResF time, but I'll guarantee that if you paid back 243 days worth of pension - that none of those 243 days were credited to you for "cadet time" - rather it seems that your ResF time (3 years) was worth 243 days. If someone screwed up and DID credit you with cadet time towards pension ... be prepared for an audit upon your release - it just doesn't count - cadets are not, never have been, members of the CF.


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## gwp (11 Sep 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I guarantee you that most of that time credited came from your ResF time ... NOT your cadet time.


Actually *all* of the time credited towards the CD was PRes time.  Only time served as a member of the CF or Honorary is credited towards the CD.



> The max a cadet could be credited with was 180 days towards PAY, not promotion and NOT pension, and that was provided the cadet had advanced courses and time as an instructor.



The value of the additional pay is pensionable earnings so whatever the difference between the two levels of pay - not a large amount.  The 243 days of pension buy back is PRes time. It is only is affected in as much as the value of the earnings for the period was marginally greater had you not  been a cadet (the difference in the pay grade for the applicable period.)  Not a major factor. 



> cadets are not, never have been, members of the CF.


Absolutely without question.


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## gaspasser (11 Sep 2008)

Actually I wasn't ranting about lack of time towards anything from my cadet days.  I did not get time towards pay from cadets. The pension days were from PRes and I ain't complaining about that either.  I was just stating a few facts.  If you ask me, most of Cornwallis and Border was a waste of time for me.  Not meaning to sound arrogant, but I really didn't learn anything in Cornhollis and I was more qual'd up than my Crse Sgt on my threes.  I mostly kept other students on the road.  Many have asked why I didn't get the Direct Entry in those days. Well, you needed your 3's {read 5's} and your JLC.  The summer I joined was the summer the clerk had me scheduled for both...yeup, I was miffed.
My rant....off.


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## armyvern (11 Sep 2008)

gwp said:
			
		

> Actually *all* of the time credited towards the CD was PRes time.  Only time served as a member of the CF or Honorary is credited towards the CD.
> 
> The value of the additional pay is pensionable earnings so whatever the difference between the two levels of pay - not a large amount.  The 243 days of pension buy back is PRes time. It is only is affected in as much as the value of the earnings for the period was marginally greater had you not  been a cadet (the difference in the pay grade for the applicable period.)  Not a major factor.
> Absolutely without question.



I absolutely agree.

My response was as a result of his comment:



> I asked higher to look into my *6 years as a cadet and 3 years in the reserves*.  The answer I got back in those days was...2 years and 243 days added towards my CD ! Plus I had to pay back 2 years and 243 days worth of pension.



He does not differentiate in his statement that the 243 all came from his ResF time, not his cadet time. That's why I was pointing out that ALL of his time towards promotion and pension _should_ have been ResF time; that cadet time ONLY counted towards pay.

And that, if someone screwed up and DID credit any of his cadet time towards anything BUT the pay ... he should be prepared for an audit. And regarding the pension differential between the two - (6 months credited towards pay in my case) based upon cadet experience will only witness my pensionable earnings seeing me go from a Pte IPC 1 six months earlier than anyone else --- but that's as a member of the RegF. At the 322 bucks I was making every two weeks way back then ... I'm quite sure the pension system can handle it. 

He's now clarified that he did not mean to infer that any part of his 6 years cadet time was credited towards anything.


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## gaspasser (11 Sep 2008)

AV, agreed.  I was pointing out that I DID NOT get anything for cadet time and I'm kind of PO'd that some are now getting something for it and the fact that I had to pay back the 2 years and 243 days of pension to qualify for the extra time towards my CD.
End


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## Neill McKay (11 Sep 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> cadets are not, never have been, members of the CF.



There is a small exception to this in that staff cadets at the CSTCs were, once upon a time, enroled as reservists for the duration of their contracts.  It's been quite a while now since that was done.


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## Michael OLeary (11 Sep 2008)

BYT Driver said:
			
		

> AV, agreed.  I was pointing out that I DID NOT get anything for cadet time and I'm kind of PO'd that some are now getting something for it and the fact that I had to pay back the 2 years and 243 days of pension to qualify for the extra time towards my CD.
> End



You "purchase" pensionable time towards your pension, not towards your CD.


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## geo (11 Sep 2008)

N. McKay said:
			
		

> In what forum have you seen this pressure?



Not in a forum.... Was a member of a sponsoring committee

If there wasn't any pressure, wouldn't the movement still be more soldierly than it is ?


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## gwp (11 Sep 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Not in a forum.... Was a member of a sponsoring committee If there wasn't any pressure, wouldn't the movement still be more soldierly than it is ?


The shift in the cadet program began during the same period as North America began shifting towards a more small "l" liberal society.  It is evident in the evolution of the aim of the cadet program that remains unchanged from when it was last revised in the 1970's.  

QR and O Army Cadets *1956* states the aim of Royal Canadian Army Cadets as:

To provide the youth of Canada with a sound knowledge of "military fundamentals" based on leadership, patriotism, and good citizenship and founding on the premis that "the first duty of a free citizen is to be prepared to defend his country. 

In *1962 * faced with declined enrollment as the result of societal changes and anti-war sentiment driven by Vietnam the aim of Army Cadets was revised by QR&O Amendement List #5 Feb. 1, 1962:

The aim of the Army Cadet Organization is to provide army cadets with a sound knowledge of military fundamentals based on the qualities of leadeshiop, patriotism and good citizenship.

The 1995 Cheif Review Services Report on the Cadet Program reports: In *1966*, at the time of a Deputy Cheif Reserves study on the RC Sea Army Air Cadets, the three cadet organizations each had a different aim as follows:

Sea Cadets: To give Sea Cadets training in seamanship and other associated subjects; such other training as will develop in them patriotism and other qualities of good citizenship; and to help Sea Cadets who wish to make the sea their career, achieve that ambition.

Air Cadets: To encourage Air Cadets to develop attributes of good citizenship; to stimulate in Air Cadets an itnerest in aviation and space technology; and to help Air Cadets develop a high standard of physical fitness, mental alertness and discipline.  

Army Cadets: As noted from 1962.

The 1966 study recommended standardization of the cadet training program, and a single aim for all three cadet organizations as follows:

To develop in cadets qualities of good citizenship, leadership and patriotism; to promote thier interest in the sea, land or air environments as appropriate; and to develop in them a high standard of physical fitness, mental alertness and discipline through service training.

Between 1966 and unification, the need for a combined aim for a single cadet movement was accepted, and the aim statement evolved into its current form as stated in QR (Cadets) 2.03

To develop in youth the attributes of good citizehsip and leadershpl promote physical fitness; and stumulate the interest of youth in the sea, land, and air activities of the CF.

In addition to the combined aim of the CCO, the Sea Cadets and the Air Cadets developed supplemental aims:

Help sea cadets who wish to make the sea thier career achieve that ambition

To promote continuing education, encourage among young people a practical interest in aeronautics and assist those intending to pursue a career in the field of aviation. 

In all cases the statement is described as a single aim.  

The unified aim of the program has not changed in 40 plus years it has been re-examined and recently interpreted and supported in a CATO 11-03 titled Cadet Program Mandate. 

Currently, there is some early evidence of enrollment shyness that may be driven by a missunderstanding of the program at a time where there is some public anti-war commentary particularly in Central Canada.  The aim of the program is not going to be revised.  It describes what the program is about which is -- young people that understand the concept of citizenship, have leadership ability, are modestly physically fit and have in interest in the sea, land, and air activities of their Canadian Forces.   Now that is something that every Canadian should aspire to.


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## gwp (11 Sep 2008)

BYT Driver said:
			
		

> AV, agreed.  I was pointing out that I DID NOT get anything for cadet time and I'm kind of PO'd that some are now getting something for it and the fact that I had to pay back the 2 years and 243 days of pension to qualify for the extra time towards my CD.



Huh?   CD eligibility has nothing to do with pension.  CD eligibility is honourable time served ... 4,373 days to be awarded the medal 12 years plus 3 leap days RegF, Res, regardless of how many days are paid --- and time served as a honorary appointee.  Your pension research may have verified your service but pension has nothing to do with CD eligibility.

The pay incentive for former cadets is not new. It has existed at least since the 1970's and likely earlier for army cadets. 



> CFAO 49-5
> 3d.     Former cadets of any of the Canadian Cadet organizations may be granted time credit for promotion in recognition of qualifications they have obtained prior to enrolment. The amount of credit shall be determined by CHQ.
> 
> 4.     Pay entitlement on enrolment, re-enrolment or transfer shall be as prescribed in the table to  QR&O Chapter 204.305, and shall be determined by the incentive credit granted on enrolment.  A member enrolled
> ...





> CFAO 6-1 superseded by DAOD 5002-1. -  A rank higher than Pte(R)/OS, and qualifying service, may be granted to an applicant: with special civilian qualifications for which there is a specific military requirement; *or who was a member of a Canadian cadet organization*.


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## Neill McKay (11 Sep 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Not in a forum.... Was a member of a sponsoring committee



Sponsoring committees can be an interesting bunch...  We have a good one, composed almost entirely of parents of current cadets, but I realise that some are drawn from other sources.  (By forum I didn't necessarily mean an online discussion forum.)



> If there wasn't any pressure, wouldn't the movement still be more soldierly than it is ?



I guess I have two comments on that.  First, I don't think it's any less military than it was when I started working in the programme around 1999.  Second, I would suggest that the pressure is more from within, based on the perception of what parents might be thinking, than anything else: senior staff who fear potential community opposition so they try to soften up the image of the programme.  (See the particular policies in effect in Quebec with respect to the use of ceremonial rifles, for example.)

I strongly doubt that more than a very small fraction of parents of existing cadets feel that the programme should be less military.  Once they're in, they quickly see the value of the programme as it is now.  It's those who don't know that we have to be careful of.


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## Armoured_Cadet (1 Feb 2009)

I highly discourage even brining up that you were in cadets the fact that you push for for money, you dont want to stand out when your in the army, blend in with the group and gain their trust. Saying your in cadets and you deserve better is not right.


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## Conquistador (1 Feb 2009)

Cameron_Highlander said:
			
		

> I highly discourage even brining up that you were in cadets the fact that you push for for money, you dont want to stand out when your in the army, blend in with the group and gain their trust. Saying your in cadets and you deserve better is not right.



If you're entitled to ANYTHING that will put more money in your pocket, for gods sake, TAKE IT! You're not standing out or being a blade by taking advantage of this, you're screwing yourself over.


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## stealthylizard (1 Feb 2009)

No one has to know what you are getting paid, it's confidential.  You don't even have to mention cadets to those around you, but make sure the recruiting centre, and your various clerks know about it.  As Conquistador pretty much put it, "ANYTHING that will put more money in your pocket"  $1400/month doesn't go as far as a person thinks it does.


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## geo (1 Feb 2009)

Cameron... there is nothing wrong with having been a cadet & saying you have been a cadet.
However, there is something wrong with taking a superior attitude about it - leaving people the impression that you know it all and have seen it all.... only later to demonstrate by your deeds that you don't.

By your deeds & by your acts you will show how good (or bad) a soldier you are.

In the meantime... sign up to get the additional pay while you can... it IS yours for the taking.


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## Armoured_Cadet (1 Feb 2009)

geo said:
			
		

> Cameron... there is nothing wrong with having been a cadet & saying you have been a cadet.
> However, there is something wrong with taking a superior attitude about it - leaving people the impression that you know it all and have seen it all.... only later to demonstrate by your deeds that you don't.
> 
> By your deeds & by your acts you will show how good (or bad) a soldier you are.
> ...




I agree, thinking your superior is not the kind of attitude that you want. Now i know that at my regiment we do not do the 6 month seniority i asked if they did and they said no. I ended it right there but i think the Reg force might give you the 6 months if i am wrong please someone correct me.


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## Nfld Sapper (1 Feb 2009)

Cameron_Highlander said:
			
		

> I agree, thinking your superior is not the kind of attitude that you want. Now i know that at my regiment we do not do the 6 month seniority i asked if they did and they said no. I ended it right there but i think the Reg force might give you the 6 months if i am wrong please someone correct me.



Must be your unit only.


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## chrisf (1 Feb 2009)

Cameron_Highlander said:
			
		

> I agree, thinking your superior is not the kind of attitude that you want. Now i know that at my regiment we do not do the 6 month seniority i asked if they did and they said no. I ended it right there but i think the Reg force might give you the 6 months if i am wrong please someone correct me.



All units do. Including your unit. Whoever told you they don't was mistaken.

That being said, it's nothing to do with seniority. It's six months towards your first IPC increase (Pay raise). That is all.


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## Armoured_Cadet (1 Feb 2009)

My unit does things a bit different then most   i just went into pay class 2 for private so im earning $94.30 compared to $80 a day but having the 6 month would be good


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## George Wallace (1 Feb 2009)

Cameron_Highlander said:
			
		

> My unit does things a bit different then most   i just went into pay class 2 for private so im earning $94.30 compared to $80 a day but having the 6 month would be good



It appears that you don't have a grasp on what you are talking about, so please stop giving advice.


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## chris_log (1 Feb 2009)

Cameron_Highlander said:
			
		

> *My unit does things a bit different then most*   i just went into pay class 2 for private so im earning $94.30 compared to $80 a day but having the 6 month would be good



No they don't.


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## Armoured_Cadet (1 Feb 2009)

well i shall end my involvment in this issue now


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## chrisf (1 Feb 2009)

Cameron_Highlander said:
			
		

> My unit does things a bit different then most   i just went into pay class 2 for private so im earning $94.30 compared to $80 a day but having the 6 month would be good



Based no doubt on your extensive experience within the CF?

If you don't want to believe somone who knows better when they're trying to help you, then don't. However, it is not up to your unit to do things differently. The pay incentive for former cadet service is (I believe) outlined in the CFAOs (If not in the CFAOs, then somewhere else, but I would assume the CFAOs, I've never had to look it up personally), which are universal to the entire forces. I would have offered to provide you with a reference, which you could present to your section commander, who in turn would be able to help you sort things out with your unit orderly room, but since clearly, according to you you're right and I'm wrong, I couldn't be bothered.


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## geo (1 Feb 2009)

Guys,
This troops has a missunderstanding about the 6 month "incentive"
This is not seniority as far as pecking order
All this is - is an admin FINANCIAL benefit.
if you turn in your cadet record of service, your unit OR will process the leg up in pay.... 6 months ahead of the other guys.


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## George Wallace (1 Feb 2009)

Cameron_Highlander said:
			
		

> My unit does things a bit different then most   i just went into pay class 2 for private so im earning $94.30 compared to $80 a day  but having the 6 month would be good





			
				Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Based no doubt on your extensive experience within the CF?
> 
> If you don't want to believe somone who knows better when they're trying to help you, then don't. However, it is not up to your unit to do things differently. The pay incentive for former cadet service is (I believe) outlined in the CFAOs (If not in the CFAOs, then somewhere else, but I would assume the CFAOs, I've never had to look it up personally), which are universal to the entire forces. I would have offered to provide you with a reference, which you could present to your section commander, who in turn would be able to help you sort things out with your unit orderly room, but since clearly, according to you you're right and I'm wrong, I couldn't be bothered.



If he went in as Pte IPC lvl 2, then  he must be some special...................OR............................they gave him some sort of credit for his cadet time and he is a pay level above his peers.


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## chris_log (1 Feb 2009)

Cameron_Highlander said:
			
		

> well i shall end my involvment in this issue now



Don't, admit the fact that you're wrong and carry on. I used to be a Cameron and I still know a couple people kicking around there. The only thing 'wrong' administratively with the CHofO was a certain CC (who shall remain nameless). Not sure if said clerk is there anymore, not that it matters. 

They can't prevent you from receiving the pay incentive, it's something that applies to the whole CF. I know it sounds cool to say "ya I used to be a cadet but I'm too cool to tell anyone" (I used to be that way too) but really, it doesn't impress anyone and screws you over in the end.


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## George Wallace (1 Feb 2009)

Piper said:
			
		

> Don't, admit the fact that you're wrong and carry on. I used to be a Cameron and I still know a couple people kicking around there. The only thing 'wrong' administratively with the CHofO was a certain CC (who shall remain nameless). Not sure if said clerk is there anymore, not that it matters.



And it can be worse.  You could be a GG.   They have even bigger problems.


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## chrisf (1 Feb 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> If he went in as Pte IPC lvl 2, then  he must be some special...................OR............................they gave him some sort of credit for his cadet time and he is a pay level above his peers.



Perhaps, but I interpreted that as him stating he'd just recieved his annual raise, which would make sense, as according to his profile, he's got one year in.


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## George Wallace (1 Feb 2009)

The six months may have kicked in..........We'd have to get into HMRS and know for sure.


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## chris_log (1 Feb 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> And it can be worse.  You could be a GG.   They have even bigger problems.



True. Loosing a Carl G never looks good on a unit, not even one as heavily spit shone and rigid as the foot guards.


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## geo (1 Feb 2009)

Heh....

Used to refer to them as "the only government sponsored freak show".... >

But that was a long time ago....


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## chris_log (2 Feb 2009)

geo said:
			
		

> Heh....
> 
> Used to refer to them as "the only government sponsored freak show".... >
> 
> But that was a long time ago....



"Gustav Gone For Good"

"Googly Fooglies"

"God's Gift For..."

All in good fun.


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## Oil Can (11 Feb 2009)

This has been around for over 3 decades. Let me put it simple. It ain't goin to happen. Pay offices won't adjust your pay incentive category for cadet time and NO you can't simple transfer a Cadet officer commission to the Reg force either. Different ball game - so to speak.


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## Nfld Sapper (11 Feb 2009)

Oil Can said:
			
		

> This has been around for over 3 decades. Let me put it simple. It ain't goin to happen. *Pay offices won't adjust your pay incentive category for cadet time * and NO you can't simple transfer a Cadet officer commission to the Reg force either. Different ball game - so to speak.



Ummm..... yes they do, and we encourage recruits to tell us.


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## geo (11 Feb 2009)

Oil Can said:
			
		

> This has been around for over 3 decades. Let me put it simple. It ain't goin to happen. Pay offices won't adjust your pay incentive category for cadet time and NO you can't simple transfer a Cadet officer commission to the Reg force either. Different ball game - so to speak.



I work at the Area HQ & I know for a fact that the records section reviews & ensures prior cadet service adjustments are processed for those who qualify


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## Oil Can (11 Feb 2009)

Ok, I apologize. It's sounds like the rules have changed.


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## Burrows (14 Feb 2009)

Oil Can said:
			
		

> Ok, I apologize. It's sounds like the rules have changed.


No, it sounds like someone is talking out of something that isn't their mouth again.


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## R. Jorgensen (15 Feb 2009)

So, NSCE has nothing to do with eligibility when it comes to the IPC? Sounds awesome.

Secondly, 

The reason why people are experiencing whiney cadets in the Res/Reg is because they were whiney as a cadet and pampered out of their minds. My corps used to have 50 something members up until 2004/2005 (I joined in 2006) and in 2004/2005 one of the other officers split and opened his own corps in another town that did not have an Army cadet corps, only an Air Squadron. They do ridiculous amounts of fund raising and have steak dinners on an exercise, while my corps are setting out hardcore, sleeping under groundsheets and eating from Boil-In-A-Bag (MRE's) and are pampered in ways that I cannot describe.

They've been told that "THIS IS THE WAY THINGS ARE!" and follow those words... but when they move on to the Real Deal like Res or Reg and they're told that they were taught wrong and through a hissy fit:

"BUT CORPORAL YOUR WRONG! A CIC LIEUTENANT TOLD ME THAT IT IS DONE LIKE THIS!?"

and of course you get the response (props to my father :rofl: )

"A CIC Officer, more specifically a Lieutenant has no more rank over a Corporal like myself... don't even try to pull that on me. Do your 25."

There's only a select few that are dedicated cadets, I used to drive an 1 hours and 20 minutes from Canmore into Calgary to attend cadets; but I have since moved back into Calgary. I am very dedicated and would never ever think about going against the word of a member of the PRes or Reg (NCM and Officer alike).

That's why I want to get out of cadets as soon as I can (in the next couple of months here) because of the poor performance that comes out of the majority of cadets these days, regardless of how hard you press them.

Useful skills I'd bring to the PRes as a cadet?

Map and Compass
Dress, Drill, Deportment
Some leadership (Most leadership skills taught to a cadet are semi-useful, some are not - especially in Res/Reg)
Recognition of Rank, Regiment Structure, and Respect for superiors.

That's all I could think of.

It's sad, I know.


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## Neill McKay (15 Feb 2009)

Big Beef said:
			
		

> "BUT CORPORAL YOUR WRONG! A CIC LIEUTENANT TOLD ME THAT IT IS DONE LIKE THIS!?"



That's the wrong answer, obviously.  You do things as instructed in your current unit.  But...



> and of course you get the response (props to my father :rofl: )
> 
> "A CIC Officer, more specifically a Lieutenant has no more rank over a Corporal like myself... don't even try to pull that on me. Do your 25."



... that's also wrong.  All officers outrank all corporals, regardless of branch, element, or component.


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## R. Jorgensen (15 Feb 2009)

N. McKay said:
			
		

> That's the wrong answer, obviously.  You do things as instructed in your current unit.  But...
> 
> ... that's also wrong.  All officers outrank all corporals, regardless of branch, element, or component.



I wasn't using those examples to the literal meaning. I guess you could say I was exaggerating.

I was actually visiting in on a Reserve Unit one time, I guess there was some sort of a course going on - maybe BMQ; and I heard both those lines that I had mentioned said between two people (not exactly like I typed but it was similar). It's odd how people think that just because you were a C/MWO that you know more and know better than a Res/Reg Corporal, it's disgusting.


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## geo (15 Feb 2009)

it happens when a cadet joins the Reserves OR the Regs
It happens when a reservist joins the Regs...
It also happens when a reservist 0r reg retires & joins the Cadet movement....

the same line can be said - for all above categories ..... "I had no idea"


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## densy92 (11 Apr 2009)

So, I'm kinda still confused about this, but somewhat understand i guess.
I have spent 5 years in RCSCC Iroquois, in Shearwater N.S. I was a Petty Officer 2nd Class, Did 3 Summer Training Camps, 1 of which was 6 weeks, one a  3 week course and the other a 2 week course. I have just enlisted, in the Primary Reserves, have my Medical, Physical, and Interview on the 15th of April. So once I am actually "in" I can be promoted to a Corpral, and get the same pay incentive as a Corpral?(as long as i have the proof of course) Is this correct? and if so, is it right away, or after BMQ/SQ?
Thanks, Densy


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## George Wallace (11 Apr 2009)

densy92 said:
			
		

> So, I'm kinda still confused about this, but somewhat understand i guess.
> I have spent 5 years in RCSCC Iroquois, in Shearwater N.S. I was a Petty Officer 2nd Class, Did 3 Summer Training Camps, 1 of which was 6 weeks, one a  3 week course and the other a 2 week course. I have just enlisted, in the Primary Reserves, have my Medical, Physical, and Interview on the 15th of April. So once I am actually "in" I can be promoted to a Corpral, and get the same pay incentive as a Corpral?(as long as i have the proof of course) Is this correct? and if so, is it right away, or after BMQ/SQ?
> Thanks, Densy



No.  It is not correct.


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## Michael OLeary (11 Apr 2009)

densy92 said:
			
		

> So, I'm kinda still confused about this, but somewhat understand i guess.
> I have spent 5 years in RCSCC Iroquois, in Shearwater N.S. I was a Petty Officer 2nd Class, Did 3 Summer Training Camps, 1 of which was 6 weeks, one a  3 week course and the other a 2 week course. I have just enlisted, in the Primary Reserves, have my Medical, Physical, and Interview on the 15th of April. So once I am actually "in" I can be promoted to a Corpral, and get the same pay incentive as a Corpral?(as long as i have the proof of course) Is this correct? and if so, is it right away, or after BMQ/SQ?
> Thanks, Densy



NO.

From the first page in this thread, you get 6-months time credit towards promotion.  That means you can have six months knocked off the four years (two years for P Res) required before promotion to Corporal.  That six months comes off the period before your rate of pay as a Private changes to Incentive Pay Category (IPC) 2.



> An applicant who has served in the Cadet Forces of Canada may, on the authority of the Commanding Officer of a CFRC, be granted 180 days of Incentive Credit (IC) towards the Pte. IPC 2 pay category provided that the applicant meets both of the following criteria:


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## densy92 (11 Apr 2009)

Alright, and didnt think what i said was correct. Just making sure.
Thanks, Densy


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## geo (11 Apr 2009)

Densy.... you didn't read the 1st 11 pages of this thread before jumping in - did you ?


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## Fishbone Jones (11 Apr 2009)

geo said:
			
		

> Densy.... you didn't read the 1st 11 pages of this thread before jumping in - did you ?



Geo,

How about stopping with your UFI posts? They don't add anything to the threads, and are growing tiresome.

Milnet.ca Staff


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## Dean22 (5 Aug 2009)

My Story:

Originally went to St. Catharines to join PRES and I told them to look at this website and they said that the recruiting incentive existed (he didn't know about prior to going to this website).

Now, I am applying in Hamilton for PRES and they say it doesn't exist at all. I can't find any way to show it to them unless they go to this website and when I tried to say about this link they were pretty much said "nope, not listening to you nanananananananana"

To further complicate this I don't have a Service Number from 5 years of Army Cadets. I put the guy head of the cadets at my school as a reference along with the Unit Number for the school and region.

Is there any way I can find a government site that talks about the recruiting incentive for PRES that I can print out and hand to them? Does anyone know? I tried googling the "CFAO 49-5" but no results showed up.


Thanks for your help.

(P.S. I am incredibly sorry if this post is wrong in any way shape or form)


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## PMedMoe (5 Aug 2009)

First off, this is an "unofficial" site.

Second, you wouldn't have a service number in cadets.

The CFAO is 49-5 (which is not available off the DWAN but should be available to the CFRC).

It states (in part - emphasis mine):



> TIME CREDIT FOR PROMOTION OR SENIORITY GRANTED ON ENROLMENT
> 
> 3.     On enrolment, re-enrolment or transfer, a member who has had former
> service in the Canadian Forces or in a cadet unit, or service with another
> ...



From CFAO 49-11, you will need a letter regarding your previous cadet service for enrollment authority submission.


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## Neill McKay (5 Aug 2009)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Second, you wouldn't have a service number in cadets.



Cadets who serve as staff cadets in the summer get a service number (currently, but not necessarily in the distant past).

All cadets now have something called a Cadet Unique Identifier (CUID), which is vaguely similar to a service number.  This started when Fortress (the computer system for cadet pers records) was implemented about five years ago.  Anyone who has been a cadet since that time has had his or her service recorded in Fortress, and his or her old unit could produce a printed copy of that record if asked.  I understand (from the cadet organization side) that recruiting centres will accept this.

However, it would be up to the applicant to provide the record or whatever other proof of service as a cadet is required, so I'm not sure that a staff cadet service number of a CUID would be of any use to the recruiting centre.


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## Otis (5 Aug 2009)

Dean 22:
You will only have a service number as a cadet if you were a STAFF cadet at a camp and were paid for being there.

There is no pay incentive for being a cadet, there is however the possibility of a time credit towards the next rank level (up to six months).


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## mellian (5 Aug 2009)

Otis said:
			
		

> Dean 22:
> You will only have a service number as a cadet if you were a STAFF cadet at a camp and were paid for being there.
> 
> There is no pay incentive for being a cadet, there is however the possibility of a time credit towards the next rank level (up to six months).



I just called RC about a cadet related question, and that is what they told me. If one has done cadets in the last 5 years and applying to the CF two years after leaving cadets, then get time credit of six months towards the next rank. I think the 'pay incentive' is get a pay raise quicker by possibly gaining the new rank quicker.


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## Dean22 (5 Aug 2009)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> First off, this is an "unofficial" site.
> 
> Second, you wouldn't have a service number in cadets.
> 
> ...



I know it's unofficial but I can't find CFAO online. Also, sorry for the confusion what I meant was time credit.

Also, would the head of the cadet unit in the form of a phone call suffice over a letter? I used him as a reference and I was just told by a different RC to just point that out.


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## George Wallace (5 Aug 2009)

Dean22 said:
			
		

> Also, would the head of the cadet unit in the form of a phone call suffice over a letter?



And suppose you actually gave the phone number of your best friend instead?  A letter is more official and can be placed in your file.  Yes, it too can be forged, as can a phone call be made to an impostor, but it is hard 'evidence' that sits in your file.  It is original, not second hand.  If it is official it is good to have.  If it is fraudulent, then it is positive proof that you are too.

Think about it.


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## Neill McKay (5 Aug 2009)

Dean22 said:
			
		

> I know it's unofficial but I can't find CFAO online. Also, sorry for the confusion what I meant was time credit.



As CFAOs aren't currently available on the Internet, the best source of information that can be had easily is probably Cadet Administrative and Training Order 13-35, available here:  http://www.cadets.ca/support/cato-oaic/admin3.aspx#CATO%2013-35.  CATO 13-35 references CFAO 6-1.  It refers to six months' time credit towards a member's first annual pay increase -- nothing about an early promotion.



> Also, would the head of the cadet unit in the form of a phone call suffice over a letter? I used him as a reference and I was just told by a different RC to just point that out.



The CO should be willing to write a memo to the recruiting centre confirming your time as a cadet.  If he or she has your record available it would be about a ten-minute job.


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## George Wallace (5 Aug 2009)

I think if the OP had bothered to read these twelve pages, (s)he would have had their answer.  As is, we have spent twelve redundant pages repeating the same FACT over and over and over again.


*TOPIC LOCKED !*


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## SuperAVS (24 Jan 2010)

Hey folks


I joined just under three years ago, and was given a semi-skilled incentive:  Private 2 pay from the day I started basic training. 

    --> What I don't know is if that advancement to a Private 2 pay is considered 1 year advancement towards my Corporals or not. 


Coming up to my third year in about a month and I'm wondering if that means I'll be promoted to CPL (With of course QL5 completed) or will I stay at a Private 3 pay.   I've been asking around, but it seems that no one really knows that answer to this. Any help or direction would be greatly appreciated.  I looked into perhaps using some cadet time to getting that 6 months towards my corporals, but I think its been far too many years since I was in cadets).


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## armyvern (24 Jan 2010)

It would have read:

1 year time credit towards pay; or

1 year time credit towards promotion; or

1 year time credit towards pay & promotion.

If you signed up with "1 year advanced towards *pay*" as semi-skilled - and "promotion" wasn't mentionned, then it is not applicable to the promotion.

As an aside, your "cadet time" would have been looked at (if) had you reported it when you applied. "Cadet Time" is not based upon "time" - it is based upon "the courses you actually did as a cadet". Some cadet courses are worth diddley squat. "Cadet Time" does NOT count towards service as "Cadets" are not members of the CF. If, however you did a specialty qual course while in cadets, it _may_ - such as basic para. 

As well, you can't just "apply" to have "anything" put towards getting your Corporals earlier ... accelerated promotions are not "applied for" in any way, shape or form by the member themselves; rather, the CoC must observe an outstanding ability by the Pte to perform at the next level and must then recommend that the Pte be accelerated.


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## ammocat (24 Jan 2010)

According to CFAO 49-4 Annex A Promotion Eligibility Criteria promotion to Cpl requires the following:
4 years qualifying service
QL5A Qualified
Medical - meet minimum medical category for the MOC
Availability - be available for unrestricted employment in MOC

Accelerated Promotion is the same except with 3 years qualifying service. The used to be a 10% ceiling on accelerated promotions, this has been removed and ECS/MAS are expected to implement their own controls so that only truly outstanding Ptes are accelerated. So as ArmyVern stated, if accelerated promotion is not mentioned in your message when you joined, then unless you are in the top 10% (or limit established for you MOC) you will require 4 years of qualifying service.


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## SuperAVS (24 Jan 2010)

What I'm talking about is different that an Advanced promotion request. Essentially if you have the proper Cadet time (courses/time/etc etc) or college (semi or fully skilled etc etc) then you can bump that 4 years down to 3.5. Its on a case by case basis from my understanding, but I don't understand where they have the criteria listed. 

But thank you ArmyVern, I'll have to get the OR to pull out my old posting messages to Basic and see what the wording is.


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## armyvern (24 Jan 2010)

SuperAVS said:
			
		

> What I'm talking about is different that an Advanced promotion request. Essentially if you have the proper Cadet time (courses/time/etc etc) or college (semi or fully skilled etc etc) then you can bump that 4 years down to 3.5. Its on a case by case basis from my understanding, but I don't understand where they have the criteria listed.
> 
> But thank you ArmyVern, I'll have to get the OR to pull out my old posting messages to Basic and see what the wording is.



It (cadet) is looked at as part of the enrollment process as I said below.

Did you advise the CFRC and provide documentation of your cadet time and courses when you enrolled?


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## SuperAVS (24 Jan 2010)

Absolutely, though the reason I'm again looking into again is to see what else I should be entitled too but wasn't informed of, or perhaps the recruitment centre may have not known of. Can't hurt to see about getting 6 months taken off that 4 years to Corporal. Like anyone, I could use the money!


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## armyvern (24 Jan 2010)

SuperAVS said:
			
		

> Absolutely, though the reason I'm again looking into again is to see what else I should be entitled too but wasn't informed of, or perhaps the recruitment centre may have not known of. Can't hurt to see about getting 6 months taken off that 4 years to Corporal. Like anyone, I could use the money!



1)  What particular cadet courses do you have that you are so convinced are going to get you 6 months towards your promotion?

2) did you put forth your documentation to the CFRC when you enlisted?

3) If you DID hand in your documentation ... why then do you think that "the CFRC might not have known"? Credit towards _certain_ (not all) cadet courses is nothing new for them ... it's actually been around for decades now. Mine was credited way back when I joined two decades ago ... you really are _not_ "special" or "unusual".


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## aesop081 (25 Jan 2010)

SuperAVS said:
			
		

> then you can bump that 4 years down to 3.5.



No.

Cadet time counts for incetives but not towards promotion.


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