# Pride to be in the forces and everybody is leaving



## j-f (9 Nov 2016)

Hi everyone 

I have been in the airforce for 8 years .its is now my second posting and still the same .no one like to be in the forces and everybody is trying to get out .

I like the canadian forces , the best time i had was on tasking or exercise in wainwright.it seems like everyone i met in wainwright ( infantry or armoured ) loved there job and bever said anything about it being bullshit and couldnt wait to get out .im a firefighter so it could be that airforce love to complain but everubody is looking for civilian job .

So after that long paragraphe of not saying anything i was wondering if there is more pride in the army , more people liking there job and less complaining ( i dont mean complaining about the shitty weather ,the rain or the lack of sleep ) i mean complaining about serving there country or the forces in general .it seems like it was better before people are saying but if i was looking to remaster ...is the army a better fit . 

Thanks


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## MilEME09 (9 Nov 2016)

Ill give you my take on it, many I know who are thinking of pulling pin love the army, they love serving their country. What people are annoyed at is bull shit that the CoC does that seems to screw over the troops. I think everywhere you go there will be some sort of frustration with the Forces in general, and some people eventually have enough and pull pin, and I don't think the army is any different in that regard.


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## mariomike (9 Nov 2016)

JF P said:
			
		

> no one like to be in the forces and everybody is trying to get out .



And how many are trying to get back in?

Getting Back In/Re-enrolling Mega Thread  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/294.475
36 pages.


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## j-f (9 Nov 2016)

It seems that in my trade 75 % wants to get out in the first 5 years .maybe 30 %do it a year... is it the same in the army ? Or other trade.its hard to stay motivated when everybody tell you they are trying to get out ... or how its better outside the military .


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## Journeyman (9 Nov 2016)

JF P said:
			
		

> ....i was wondering if there is more pride in the army ....


Yes.


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## kev994 (9 Nov 2016)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Yes.


Could it be that the other elements have more transferable skill sets?


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## CombatMacguyver (17 Nov 2016)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Yes.



ehhhhhh......


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## RedcapCrusader (18 Nov 2016)

It doesn't help that majority of our equipment is old and outdated, in disrepair, and causes more damage to our health as a result. Having to use broken, old, uncomfortable kit is demoralizing.

It doesn't help that we haven't had a salary increase in many years (cost of living adjustments don't count, I'm talking a real salary increase). Our benefits haven't been reevaluated and adjusted to the massive and rapid changes to the market (like PLD).

We're at the bottom of the totem pole. Everyone wants boosts to education, health care, environment, and rightfully so, but the CF has needs too and they've been neglected for a long, long time. Too long if you ask me.

Yes, some things have improved, but it's not nearly enough.

I have great pride in what I do and I won't quit any time soon... Doesn't mean I don't or can't complain though.


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## sandyson (18 Nov 2016)

Very few civilians are getting pay increases of any sort.  Getting full time work is the life focus for many and keeping a job is the priority.  If you are getting any form of pay adjustments you are doing very well.  As for status; education is the least appreciated profession, nobody cares about their hospitals, and we're all going to roast if they don't do something about global warming now.  However  I recall being told that as an officer I had to discriminate between 'bitching' and complaining.  The latter was to be taken seriously the former was healthy in the army.  So no. Do not complain, but "b...'all you like.


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## blacktriangle (18 Nov 2016)

Sandyson said:
			
		

> and we're all going to roast if they don't do something about global warming now.



 :

And I seem to remember MPs and Senators getting a pay increase.


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## Oldgateboatdriver (18 Nov 2016)

I agree with Sandyson here.

In the Navy, I have found that the level of bitchin' one gets from seamen is usually directly proportional to how competent and trade qualified he/she is: The more they bitch, the more competent they are.

And bitchin is a "basic seaman's right"  ;D.

Invertly, if the bitchin stops for any noticeable duration, the officers and captain should watch out: Something bad is about to happen.


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## Journeyman (18 Nov 2016)

Sandyson said:
			
		

> I recall being told that as an officer I had to discriminate between 'bitching' and complaining.


But don't confuse bitching and whining.

I figure it's a complaint if it includes potential solutions ("this organization isn't working; could we shift the following people..."); bitching if there's no solution offered ("this ruck is too heavy"); and whining if it's a non-solvable issue ("yes Bloggins, I know it's raining; thank you for that astute observation.... now STFU").  ;D

/tangent


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## Sig_Des (18 Nov 2016)

Sandyson said:
			
		

> However  I recall being told that as an officer I had to discriminate between 'bitching' and complaining.  The latter was to be taken seriously the former was healthy in the army.  So no. Do not complain, but "b...'all you like.



Point of contention I have here. As an officer/leader, you must be able to *differentiate* between the two. Members CAN complain about something, and a leader must be able to alleviate, explain, or assist in that complaint.

For example, if someone _complains_ about how a piece of equipment is junk, you can educate about the UCR process. If someone _complains_ about an unsafe practice or hazardous condition in their workplace, you can should start the DND 663 process. A redress of grievance is by it's very nature, a _complaint_.

A complaint is "a statement that a situation is unsatisfactory or unacceptable." Ignoring valid complaints, or creating an environment that it's not permissible creates an environment where nothing gets better.


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## childs56 (18 Nov 2016)

I found the Army to be more of a tight group. I found the Airforce to be more of on your own at work and  the second the day was done everyone went home to do their own thing.


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## daftandbarmy (19 Nov 2016)

CTD said:
			
		

> I found the Army to be more of a tight group. I found the Airforce to be more of on your own at work and  the second the day was done everyone went home to do their own thing.



The Army equips the man... the Air Force mans the equipment


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## Eye In The Sky (19 Nov 2016)

CTD said:
			
		

> I found the Army to be more of a tight group. I found the Airforce to be more of on your own at work and  the second the day was done everyone went home to do their own thing.



I can only speak for myself, but our community doesn't seem to be this way.  Going home after work is partially because we work and life together when not at home and you can't get time away from people in the air, hotel room you share or wherever you sleep.  You ride to from the plane with them, eat with them and hear them on ICS for hours on end.   Time away becomes needed.


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## mariomike (19 Nov 2016)

OP:



			
				JF P said:
			
		

> .im a firefighter so it could be that airforce love to complain but everubody is looking for civilian job .



Could it be that firefighters are looking for the same job with a municipal department?


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## Trailhawk (16 Dec 2016)

I'm very much a new member of the CF, but I am in the Army and I can honestly say it's very fulfilling. I must qualify my statement by saying I've never served in the RCAF and have no other military experience to compare my Army experience with. What I can say is this: I am enjoying my training and I am proud to be a member. I've never experienced this type of group achievement and solidarity before. Everyone I am training with is extremely proud to serve, and we attribute our group successes to helping each other out and completing tasks as a group. We don't let each other get over-stressed or burnt out because these things lead to jadedness. Personally, I wholeheartedly recommend joining the Army. I hope you're able to resolve your questions.


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## mariomike (16 Dec 2016)

Trailhawk said:
			
		

> I'm very much a new member of the CF, but I am in the Army and I can honestly say it's very fulfilling.



You are a Reservist? So was I. I joined the RCASC when I was 16, and enjoyed my time. I hope you do too!


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## daftandbarmy (16 Dec 2016)

With respect to pay and compensation....


Public sector workers paid 10.6% more than private sector average: Fraser Institute

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/fraser-institute-salary-1.3887133


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## mariomike (16 Dec 2016)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> With respect to pay and compensation....
> 
> 
> Public sector workers paid 10.6% more than private sector average: Fraser Institute
> ...


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## PandemicStrange (15 Jan 2017)

To be frank, I was in the Infantry before and got out. Mainly because I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do and everyone else was doing the same. And now look at me trying to get back in. 

That being said, there's always going to be bad apples or people complaining it's human nature. You just have to find a way to tune it out really... Or try not to be around those people as often. Also I should add, that getting back in was probably the most time consuming, and took even more work than it did the first time. So there's that, I mean you can try to convey that message to others if they're unsure.


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## mariomike (15 Jan 2017)

PandemicStrange said:
			
		

> Also I should add, that getting back in was probably the most time consuming, and took even more work than it did the first time.



The nice thing is that they re-hire alumni. My employer did not.


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## BrewsKampbell (28 Jan 2017)

I was in for 8 years and left in 2013. Since then I got my Journeyman/Red Seal in welding and luckily have maintained employment in the current downturn in AB and have no fear of being laid off. I make more money welding than what I'd ever make in the Army but I gave my notice Monday and look forward to a new career as an Ammo Tech.

To me it boils down to having a career you thoroughly enjoy, though I admit the benefits and pension offered by the military are also a good bonus since fewer companies these days offer those, unless you go a union route. I never thought I'd get back in but the opportunity to do a new trade that interests me won out, and I admittedly miss certain things about the Army.


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## Ajacied34 (2 Feb 2017)

I'm speaking based on experience and stories of those around me, but in terms of the private sector things are very bleak. Hiring for things such as financial services, engineering, business and IT seem to be almost non-existent, especially for young folk (such as myself). In some cases it might be that the grass isn't all that much greener (literally) on the otherside. Although, from what I've seen if you're looking at going into the trades its a bit easier as most of the people I know have gotten apprenticeships fairly easily after school. 

Back to the CAF, in terms of salary the CF is fairly competitive with the private sector both enlisted and officer. It's on a salary, full benefits and a pension which is adjusted for inflation.


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## Lightguns (2 Feb 2017)

LunchMeat said:
			
		

> It doesn't help that majority of our equipment is old and outdated, in disrepair, and causes more damage to our health as a result. Having to use broken, old, uncomfortable kit is demoralizing.
> 
> It doesn't help that we haven't had a salary increase in many years (cost of living adjustments don't count, I'm talking a real salary increase). Our benefits haven't been reevaluated and adjusted to the massive and rapid changes to the market (like PLD).
> 
> ...



You ain't seen old til you rode around in '54 deuce in the 80s with 27 other guys in the back because there is only one deuce per platoon, hazardous til you spent your day in a drill hall with asbestos snowing down or uncomfortable til you spent 6 weeks in 64 pattern webbing.   [lol:


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## Rifleman62 (2 Feb 2017)

Or wore First World War helmets until the 1970's if you were in the Militia. Or used the Second World War .303 BREN and Sten gun until the mid 60's in the Militia. Or used the Second World War Fighting Order until the late 1970's or so when you got the 64 pattern. But the 3/4 ton truck was a fine piece of kit except in winter (no heater).


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## Lightguns (2 Feb 2017)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Or wore First World War helmets until the 1970's if you were in the Militia. Or used the Second World War .303 BREN and Sten gun until the mid 60's in the Militia. Or used the Second World War Fighting Order until the late 1970's or so when you got the 64 pattern. But the 3/4 ton truck was a fine piece of kit except in winter (no heater).



LOL, yup, that's my point.  Each generation sees better gear just around the corner.  Remember when we wanted the 82 gear to support the weight of the stuff we carried?  Remember we hated the "jump" ruck because you had to dissemble it to get to your chocolate bar stash, so we wanted a top loader with the bag on the bottom.  And TAC VEST! oiy vey, that's something only the Israelis had.  Your gear is always wore out unless you are the third roto of a major war.....

Edit:  Part of the pride of soldiering is overcoming the gear.  Always has been in Canada since the first fool chased the Huron in the woods with a red coat!


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## TCM621 (2 Feb 2017)

Part of the problem today is there are a lot of people who are looking at us shrinking with less training and no investment from the leadership of this country. We have gone from a small well trained military with old equipment,  to a smaller,  adequately trained military with ancient equipment. Our benefits are constantly eroded and our pay is starting to fall in relation to local costs while we are asked to do more and more 

We are living on delusional fantasies about our military. Canada does not punch above it's weight. We are a Light Heavyweight country who fields a bantam weight military with used shorts and tattered gloves. Sure we hit pretty hard for a bantam weight but that doesn't help us in the open division that is the world stage. 

And it is disingenuous to compare us to the private sector. First, the private sector doesn't give up its rights like we do. Second,  if I am unhappy with my compensation at one job I can apply at another to increase my wages. The military is the only option for most trades.  There is no civilian artillery companies or armoured corporations. 

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