# Primary Reserve List (PRL)



## Gunner98

The PRL is one way that the HS world hoped/s to attract or at least retain ties to "specialist" pers - especially for filling some operational taskings for Role 2+ or 3 taskings.   It in some ways admits that the Med Ops side of things needs only 14 days per year of maintenance employment or training. Which is somewhat better than sending civilian specialists into theatre with little "militarization" as we are doing now:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/recruiting/engraph/about_prl_e.asp?Lev1=3&Lev2=2&Lev3=2

Excerpt:

The CFHS Primary Reserve will be comprised of formed units with role specific supplementary and/or complementary mission elements and a Primary Reserve List (PRL). 

The CFHS is experiencing difficulties in its ability to attract, train and retain personnel with highly specialized health services skills. These specific skill sets are, for the most part, those necessary to provide the role 3 medical capability. This role has historically been the sole domain of the regular force, with individual medical augmentees being provided from traditional role 1 and 2 medical reserve units. Building a pool of already highly qualified medical professionals, within the reserves, to address both the existing augmentation shortages and the development of a future reserve role 3 medical capability is seen as a realistic approach to address these issues. This mandate has been given to the Health Services Reserve Working Group (HS Res WG). 

In order to evaluate the health services reserve role 3 capability within the SRR/SHR, the HS Res WG has canvassed selected SRR/SHR members through a national survey. The analysis of the survey results indicates a requirement for an HS Res organization that is adapted to the specific situation of health care providers. The outstanding response and interest from SRR/SHR members has contributed to the establishment of the CFHS PRL phase 1, a limited trial of a central pool.

The CFHS PRL phase 1 trial is a proof of concept phase and will consist of positions on the NDHQ PRL, that are to be filled IAW the following principles :

Members must maintain professional competencies within civilian employment; 
Members must be a former member of the CF Res (P Res, SRR or SHR); 
Members must commit to a minimum of 14 days a yr of training and/or employment; and 
There will be no promotions or access to MOC, GMT or leadership courses, during phase 1. 

During phase 1, the CFHS PRL will have available the following medical reserve MOCs:

R48 Health Care Administrator; 
R51 Dental O; 
R54 Pharmacist; 
R55 Medical Officer including : 
GDMO; 
Anesthesiologist; 
General Surgeon; 
Internal Medecine; 
Psychiatrist; 
Orthopaedic Surgeon; 
Diagnostic Radiologist; 
Thoracic Surgeon; and 
R57 Nursing Officer; and 
R711/737 Med A (Reg F 6A & 6B).


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## Donut

Here's a little more info on the PRL, maybe we should resurrect that thread on it's own.

Phase 1 is complete, and we're into phase 2.  According to the MCpl who answers the phone in Ottawa, they are accepting applications from all ex reg and res CFHS pers _except Res HCA.

The OC of my little happy sub-unit, a PRL Maj, mentioned last week that they're filling up fast.  I've also heard of and seen PRL mbrs who were loaded on additional training courses, so that's changed in Phase 2, too.  In fact, I've got one in my office most of next week for some OJT before she goes off east for a course.

If anyone has any additional info, please feel free to add to this.


PRL bound after 13 years...

DF_


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## Donut

We had a visit from a team of CWO and MWO from the PRL the other day.

There is a non MO / NO application package out, and apparently they're still looking for people.  

CWO  ________ "so, when do you want to go to Afghanistan?"

Me   "I don't"


DF


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## PRL ER NO

Yes the CFHS PRL is up and running, 150+ in strenght.  And also looking for new members

For information : Two PRL members are loaded on ROTO 4 for Op Athena as R57 Nursing Officers.


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## Donut

Just thought I'd give this a bump, along with some new info for NCM's:

Contrary to several things I've heard, the HS PRL is NOT open to Res F NCM's unless they've got the elusive "QL5 Equivalency". PCP,  ACP, CCP, RT, doesn't matter.  If you're not QL5, you're not welcome.

That's not the "authorized to support tasks normally requiring a QL5 Reg F Medic" paper that some of us have gotten, that's not the "You're good to go on a TAV replacing a QL5 medic",  That's the actual PLA to a QL5 equivalency.  I honestly don't know why I'm surprised.

Shhhhh, if you listen real careful like, you can almost hear the experience walking away.


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## Fraser.g

Sooo now you can be a PCP medic on civi street and the PRL does not want you??? WTF???
I have yet to see anyone with a QL5 PLA.

If that is the case then lets start getting the PCP medics done their PLA for the QL5 for the PRL (How is that for a run of TLAs)

ArmyMedic, 

Can you get your hands on the description and MTPs for the Regular Force QL5?

If it is a matter of getting people on their ICP course and some hospital time then we can make this happen.

Shhhh the experience is still walking, 

GF


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## Armymedic

I can get the MCSP skills from the DIN, as can you if you have access to the Health Services site.


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## Fraser.g

True,

I was hesitant to treat that list as Gospel due to some delays in updating the site.

If you believe it is good to go then I will try and look at it and see what we can do.

Without looking at the requirements but knowing what a ICP medic can do I don't think there will be much of a problem getting the skills done. Heck perhaps we can set up a proposal to get our 4s qualified medics up to the 5s level as long as they hold the required medical skill sets.

GF

Remember the end point of this is the reserves (Primary and PRL) supporting the regular force on taskings. Not getting people overseas because they want to get a nickle on their chests.


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## Donut

In conversation with some other res medic types, the implications of this for P Res pension came up.

I don't see myself parading every Thursday and three weekends a month for the next 11 years, which is what I'd need to get the 25 year pension, regardless of how many years of Cl B and C I've got invested in this organization.  Neither do any of the others I was discussing this with.  

If reserve health care professionals can't finish out 25 years on the PRL, and virtually none of us can continue to meet the current p res parade schedule indefinitely, then the full benefits of the pension simply aren't accessible to us, which will, well, I don't want to say it's going to make recruiting and retention harder (because we haven't had this carrot before) but it's certainly going to reduce the benefit the pension plan would have provided in these areas.

Food for thought, anyway.

DF


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## rogsco

The elusive Reg F QL5 PLA equivalency. The QL5 scope contains components that are not part of most PCP or ACP programs or found in the NOCP for those provider levels. The PLA process works, but you have to be able to document training/experience in all of the QL5 areas of comptency, not just the pre-hospital care portion.


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## Hot Lips

If the theory is to take those who have already been Reg force...will those individuals be taken first before someone with the education and experience in the Civi world?
I have read the info on the website and still am unclear as to the specifics that apply to those of us who have not been in the service before.  I applied last Jun as an NO and passed all necessary testing without a hitch.  I have a varied background which includes ER and psych nursing just to mention a few.
The process has been long and drawn out, my appy has bounced back and forth to the CFRC, Ottawa, Unit, back to Montreal and will then go back to the unit...sighhhhhh


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## Bart Nikodem

Rogsco,
Do you know where a guy could track down a document outlining the QL5 scope of practice? It would be interesting to see what one needs to get to that level.
All the best,
Bart


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## Gunner98

Some direction can be found at:
http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/policies/medServiceInstructions/engraph/msi_cf_3000-004_e.asp


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## herseyjh

Hotlips,

Wow, it seems that your application is taking a long time.  I just started my PRL NO paperwork last month and I was given a timeline of 4 months, give or take.  I guess only time will tell.

The one issue that the military has never addressed is how to use the reserve medical branch.  For example, say you join a reserve infantry unit, over time there is a good chance that you could be deployed if you want to.  The converse can not be said for the medical branch.  If I think about it I can maybe think of two people who have been deployed.   I understand that the reserve training is not the same as the regular force training but there must be a way for these two world to meet especially if the individual has civilian training and experience.  For me the PRL is the meeting of these two world and this is because I went to nursing school, but say I just stayed a paramedic?  It would be a no-go.  I don't think it should be this way.


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## Fraser.g

OK,

Lets take a FINAL look at the whole, "I'm a medic in the reserves but Nurse on Civi Street" issue.
The roles of the two are different. The trades are different, the responsibilities are different, the career paths are different. If you want to nurse in the army then commission and become a Nur O. If you want to be a medic in the army and be a nurse on Civi Street then keep them separate. In some cases the skill sets are complementary but not the same.

Make Up Your mind, make a plan and then act on it.

A similar line of thinking is "I am an Infanteer in the Reserves but I am an Accountant on civi street"
I should be able to deploy as the Fin O.

NO!

I am a Combat Engineer in the reserves but I work in EMS on civi Street, I should be able to deploy as a medic

NO!

Why is the first one so hard to comprehend?

K, I hope this clears up that little topic. It certainly made me feel better.


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## Hot Lips

Well I must say the demeaning replies of many on this website make me wonder.  For those of you with many years in, it may be second nature to know all of the intricate details about the CF.  Keep in mind at some point in time many or even all of you had no knowledge of this huge all encompassing system and hopefully someone was kind enough to help you out when you needed it.  Is it not a team approach that is nurtured/required in the CF?

I would hope that I as a nurse with many years of experience would not bash and demean anyone for asking questions that they would obviously know little about.  Professionalism helps me to rise above the need to bash others who seek information that I just take for granted or comes to me second nature.

We are in A-Stan fighting people who would harm us...why do the same to fellow Canadians regardless of their role here in Canada.

Had to get that off my chest...

HL


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## the 48th regulator

RN PRN said:
			
		

> OK,
> 
> Lets take a FINAL look at the whole, "I'm a medic in the reserves but Nurse on Civi Street" issue.
> The roles of the two are different. The trades are different, the responsibilities are different, the career paths are different. If you want to nurse in the army then commission and become a Nur O. If you want to be a medic in the army and be a nurse on Civi Street then keep them separate. In some cases the skill sets are complementary but not the same.
> 
> Make Up Your mind, make a plan and then act on it.
> 
> A similar line of thinking is "I am an Infanteer in the Reserves but I am an Accountant on civi street"
> I should be able to deploy as the Fin O.
> 
> NO!
> 
> I am a Combat Engineer in the reserves but I work in EMS on civi Street, I should be able to deploy as a medic
> 
> NO!
> 
> Why is the first one so hard to comprehend?
> 
> K, I hope this clears up that little topic. It certainly made me feel better.



So let me get this right,

A nurse on civvy street, would not add any value what so ever as a medic in the reserves?  The fact that they aid people heal, to me seems similar.  Why do you state that one must draw the line between civy and military employment??



> A similar line of thinking is "I am an Infanteer in the Reserves but I am an Accountant on civi street"
> I should be able to deploy as the Fin O.



The Majority of the officers in my unit including Colonel, were accountants, never heard them wanting to deploy as a Fin O.  You are right they were able to draw the line.



> I am a Combat Engineer in the reserves but I work in EMS on civi Street, I should be able to deploy as a medic



Then this person has been either duped into joining the engineers, by a witty recruiter or is confused.  Had he wanted to deploy overseas as a medic, I am sure he would have joined a medical unit...

Unfortunately, RN PRN, I do not agree with you manner of thinking, and your examples seem weak.  I as a troop on the ground would welcome a medic, that has loads of real time experience treating me in a time of need.

And I can say this from first hand experience.  Many of the American reservists posted had worked in actual US Hospitals of major cities treating gunshot wounds.  They then took a deployment helping the UN in Zagreb.

Dileas

tess


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## Fraser.g

48th,

My line of thinking is this:

If you want to be a medic in the reserves then sign up as a medic, If you want to be a Nur O then sign up as one, If you want to be an Engineer in the Reserves then sign up as one, If you want to be an Infanteer then sign up as one.

There are many people that want to do one thing on Civi street and another totally different thing in the reserve. 
As examples:
I know of a Nurse that I work with in the ER who was a medic, when he got his degree he re-mustered to Infantry because he did not want to do the same thing on weekends that he did during the week,

I know of another fine WO in Toronto who does not want to commission so she is a medic and not a Nur O.

I know of another Infantry Sgt that is a medic on civi street,

I believe there is a Trauma Doc in Alberta who is an Infantry Cpl but that is rumor,

There is an HCA with our local health region that is the TN O with the local Svc Bn...

The list goes on. My point is that if you have chosen a trade then work in that trade. If you want to do something different then VOT do not expect to work in that other trade if you are not employed by the CF to do so.

Could their skills be used differently if they chose, yes! But that is not their choice.

I hope this clears up my POV.


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## the 48th regulator

so your line of thinking is a person who deals with medical situations in their civillian life, should not go to the medics expecting to be able to offer that experience?  That it would not work at all??  And therefore be a complete waste of their time?

Answer me that.

dileas

tess


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## Fraser.g

That is not what I said AT ALL,

I said that if you want to be a medic then join as a medic,
IF you want to be a nur O then go to school, get your BSN and join as a nurse,

If you have previous experience in the health care field then join and then complete a prior learning assessment (PLA) and get is signed off from the School in Borden.

Do not join as an infanteer and then expect to work as a medic because that is what you do on civi street and if you do then you are out of scope. If you practice out of scope then the licencing body will leave you high and dry.


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## Armymedic

Let me input some clarification:

If a civilian nurse, resp therapist, whatever, is in the CF as a Med Tech, and employed as a med tech, they work under the guidance of the Surg Gen in regard to what their military qualification is. The exception, is when under supervision of an MO, they may be granted delegated acts which allow them to do more then what the guidelines for their QL allow them to do. Nurses, NPA's, and PA's all have guidelines to follow.

For instance an ACP qualified paramedic being employed as a Med Tech QL 5 can not give IV push narcotics without order and direct supervision of an MO. (extreme, but I have first hand experience of this. "But as a paramedic in xxxxxx I am allowed to..." Troop was in deep ca ca.)

A civ paramedic employed as an infanteer (or whatever civ medical profession being any military profession outside CFMG) is not allowed to do anything more then first aid (tactical or otherwise) while employed in uniform.

edit:changed Res Force to CF, as I have limited knowledge of how Res Med Techs are used, unless employed alongside Reg F.


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## Armymedic

Hot Lips said:
			
		

> Keep in mind at some point in time many or even all of you had no knowledge of this huge all encompassing system and hopefully someone was kind enough to help you out when you needed it.  Is it not a team approach that is nurtured/required in the CF?
> 
> I would hope that I as a nurse with many years of experience would not bash and demean anyone for asking questions that they would obviously know little about.  Professionalism helps me to rise above the need to bash others who seek information that I just take for granted or comes to me second nature.



Ma'am,
I enjoy having pers like you (civilian employed ER/ICU/CC nurse) coming to train with us, if you come in with that very same attitude (Maj Scott from Edmonton for example, excellent teacher, not afraid to ask good questions). I know my military job very well, as you for your civilian one. We can learn alot about do our job better from each other. 

I know nothing about the PRL...


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## Gunner98

A few things come to mind - Nursing Assoc approved scope of practice, delegated act by Supervising physican, miiltary position-associated scope of practice, and Crown Liability Act (CLA) coverage for execution of medical acts. 


Para 36 of CLA states, "36. For the purposes of determining liability in any proceedings by or against the Crown, a person who was at any time a member of the Canadian Forces or of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police shall be deemed to have been at that time a servant of the Crown.  http://lois.justice.gc.ca/en/C-50/232166.html#rid-232180


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## Hot Lips

Thanks Armymedic,

I would say that is the true spirit...I hope there are most members of the CF like yourself because I would be more than happy to serve along side of members with an abundance of military knowledge that they are willing to share, and I in return.

I am finding out that this whole PRL thing is as clear as mud and no one place/person really has a concrete response to many of the questions posed...

I decided to put my app in Reg Force as a result 

HL


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## rogsco

Bart Nikodem said:
			
		

> Rogsco,
> Do you know where a guy could track down a document outlining the QL5 scope of practice? It would be interesting to see what one needs to get to that level.
> All the best,
> Bart



Well, you should be able to get it from your unit or from the MCSP section on the Health Services Gp DIN (not internet). I think I have an e-copy of it somewhere too, let me know if you can't find it. Sorry for the delay in replying to your post. Was away on TD.


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## nsmedicman

Any new info on the PRL? I am an Intermediate Care Paramedic with 13 years urban experience. I am also a Paramedic Instructor/Facilitator and Field Preceptor. I have 4 years previous service in the P Res. Would I even qualify for the program?


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## old medic

Best thing to do is contact them via the phone numbers listed on their web page.
If your currently in, or have gone onto the SHR/SRR then the chances seem pretty good
based on the transfer instructions on their webpage.


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## nsmedicman

So what functions would I fill being a MED TECH on the PRL?


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## Donut

To be honest, I don't think you'd qualify.  Without that elusive QL5, or at the very least the Res Enh Tng to QL3, you're not really employable according to them.  Every referal I've sent that way has come back with "Get the QL3, and then call us", or words to that effect.

From the CO of the PRL last month:

5.	The following list of occupations is currently being accepted onto the CF H Svcs PRL as Class A members .... :
long list of health care jobs deleted...

f.	Med Techs		Ex Regular Force QL5 and above (others selected on a case by case basis)

I hope that clears that up, even if it's not what you wanted.

DF


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## Tacticalnurse

Ha - Good on you RN PRN.

I do have a more true to form, hit home sort of example.

When I CFR'd it was - "Welcome new Army nurse - so - let's see - Ummm - well go on the HCA course and we will call it your BNOC"

I used the same examples as you referenced - I said - "well how about you send me on a machine gunner course and call me a driver!!!"

It is much better nowadays though


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## rogsco

Hey nsmedicman,

You might not be a candidate for the PRL, but I'll bet your local Res Fd Amb would snap you up. 

In response to ParaMedTech's post, there is a difference between employable and deployable. Res F Med Techs QL4 with the new "ehanced gap training" as Reg QL3 equivalent are employable in a variety of CF jobs. Deployable is a different story, but if a Res F Med Tech also has civvy PCP  (or better) qual then they are fully Reg QL3 equivlant and that can open the door to more opportunites. My unit has had 2 of our Res F Med Techs deploy (ATHENA Roto 0 and ARCHER Roto 1 TAV with the PRT) and we have another who has just started pre-deployment training for the Feb 07 rotation. All of these are Reg F QL3 Equiv with PCP license. The opportunites exist even without the elusive Reg F QL5 equivalency.


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## nsmedicman

Only problem is rogsco, they weren't that willing to enroll me, because I live 90 minutes away. I would be willing to travel, but no go, so far.


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## rogsco

They won't enrol you because of where you live? Why the heck would that matter?


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## Donut

Hmmm, any units closer to you then that?

We've got troops 90 minutes to two hours away (heck, 8-12, too) who normally parade with a closer unit, such as the Engineers or Infantry in their local community, since they have to belong to a Fd Amb.

Something sounds a little odd...afraid of having to pay too much mileage for the commuting assistance?

DF


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## Fraser.g

From what I have gathered, the commuting allowance has been canceled. 

I agree with Paramedtec, something sounds fishy in this. I have troops that live well over two hours away from my unit and they are still permitted to join, belong to the Fd Amb.

Please take another look.


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## herseyjh

I think if you are willing to do the dive then accepting you should be a given.


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## nsmedicman

Still working on it....thanks for the support.  ;D


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## rogsco

nsmedicman,

I have troops who live 90 mins or more away from my unit and they are welcome. In fact, one of them has near perfect attendance to unit training. Seems odd that you would be getting turned away.


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## nsmedicman

I spoke with the recruiting sergeant today. She told me that it's in the CO's hands now. He would have to approve my application, since I live a distance away.


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## HCA

Move to Vancouver.  We will take you in a heartbeat. ;D


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## Dale Turner

I'm not sure if thats a LFWA thing but TAMA is still being paid in Ontario. I live an hour away from my home unit and get paid the mileage.

There's probably some other reason they're giving you a hard time.


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