# Where are the Desert CADPAT‘s?



## fortuncookie5084 (17 Jan 2002)

We‘re sending our troops into a combat zone dressed to fight in green, wooded areas. Where‘s the desert pattern?  If they don‘t have enough desert pattern uniforms to go around then somebody should order the company responsible for manufacturing them to go hog wild until all 700 troops are dressed properly.  I don‘t want to hear about even one of our troops getting wounded or killed because his green uniform made him or her stand out in a grey-beige dirty, sandy terrain.


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## bender (17 Jan 2002)

I was thinking the exact same thing when i saw a news clip of the first canadian troops in Afghanistan.  This is where improper funding comes into play again! I can only imagine what the marines are thinking about the Canadian green uniforms running around in a DESERT!!


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## Recce41 (17 Jan 2002)

Well
  It took them about 2 months to get us in Somalia,uniforms. Remember we are a temperate country. The Marines are issued Green and Tan., But not winter kit. So they have the same problem in say Greenland in the Winter. Some of them have the new Marpat Green too, in Country. I‘ve seen them on CNN, etc. Check out my post Marines get new cloths.
 Sgt J.  CD, CDS com.  :tank:


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## Andyboy (17 Jan 2002)

From what I understand the desert pattern isn‘t specified yet. I know we‘ve all seen the pictures of it on the CTS website but I think that it‘s still in the conceptual phase. I work in the industry and I havn‘t seen anything pertaining to the T&E or the Specs for the CADPAT, Arid Region (AR) but  I have with the CADPAT Teperate Woodland (TW) stuff.


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## Garett (17 Jan 2002)

I‘ve seen the Desert uniform on a PPCLI Sgt. thats working with Clothe The Soldier.  They did a presentation at our unit because they were in town for the Canadian Infantry Association Annual General Meeting.  I think if the brass wanted to get it out to the troops they would.  Its all about $$$ and politics.


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## snooprobbiedog (17 Jan 2002)

Ok, well, if there were the sand-coloured (non-CADPAT) combats available for Somalia, then how come they‘re not being used now?  I know that that they do exist (dunno in what quantities), because we wore them on an ex as enemy force...

Rob


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## spacemarine (17 Jan 2002)

The CF also owns some desert DPM, an officer was talking about getting some for enemy force use once.


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## astrof (17 Jan 2002)

I‘ve been told that soldiers going to afghanistan have been advised to bleach their uniforms before they go overseas so they will have a more ‘worn‘ look and not stick out as much the bright greeen new look.


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## Andyboy (18 Jan 2002)

Like I said, we have all seen the Desert CADPAT however I don‘t believe it has been tested or approved for use. The Temperate version underwent some pretty exhaustive testing and evaluation, not to mention the technical difficulties involved in actually printing it. It‘s not a simple as drawing something up and getting it screen printed and viola. The specs for the Temperate version are pretty involved. There is thirteen pages of graphs, charts and tests for the colours alone. The IRR tests and standards are another 14 pages and the pattern itself is another matter. So why aren‘t our troops kitted out in desert CADPAT? I imagine it was a descision made during the initial stages of the Clothe The Soldier program as to what the priority was Temperate or Desert. Obviously at the time Desert was a should have not a must have. Why don‘t they have the old tan kit? I dunno, probably because it is spread across the country being used as EN force uniforms.   

AS for seeing all the new kit. Don‘t be fooled, most of the kit SGT Parolin was showcasing across the country wasn‘t yet finalised. The Tactical Vest wasn‘t finalised until November of last year when the Manufacturing Data package came out. The rest of that stuff, the small pack, ruck, pouches, havn‘t been finalised yet and so what you saw won‘t necessarily be what you get. I‘m not suggesting that he was being dishones but I don‘t think you will know what the stuff really looks like until you sign for it. The good news though is it is actually being tested by some pretty competent test establishments for some pretty specific issues instead of just some guy sitting in an office.


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## fortuncookie5084 (18 Jan 2002)

I‘m pleased that the media has picked up on this problem.  When I first posted this yesterday I hadn‘t heard a peep from anyone about our improperly dressed soldiers.  

So the desert pattern cadpat isn‘t ready...then we should buy something for our troops until it is.  Many countries have something suitable for arid landscapes (not just the yanks, for those out there who wouldn‘t like to don American desert camo).  This isn‘t about pride, this is about preventing a potentially serious problem.  

Seriously, we‘ve been working on CADPAT for over ten years.  There is no excuse as to why it isn‘t out and available to everyone by now.


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## rceme_rat (18 Jan 2002)

This is one of the results of the down-sizing trend.  

As the forces got smaller, there were fewer people available to take on certain tasks.  At the same time, certain political flavours were emphasizing the ratio of support troops to bayonets.  This desire to protect their own in a time of down-sizing amplified the effect on troops doing headquarters-type tasks.  On of those tasks is the selection of new equipment.  Kind of hard to do when you don‘t have enough people to run project offices, maintain test establishments, etc.

We are now at the point where we may have to rely on allies to do the selection and testing for us.  Our policy could be simply to adopt the same kit as the U.S., or the Brits, etc., and foregoing any Canadianization.   

Another problem in this area is purely financial -- with such limited funds available, the military has been forced to pick and choose its projects.  The government won‘t make major purchases since these are announced as a "big number" projects, even when the maintenance funds that would be saved over the years would reduce that number significantly.  The result is that few new purchases are authorised even though they are clearly needed.

Nonetheless, I can see slow progress -- when I left the military 6 years ago (at the end of a year long PK mission), troops were deploying in monocoloured, faded, threadbare combats.  Only those going to Yugo had the new helmets, while we had the old tin pots.  I had a Vietnam-era flak jacket.  No optical sight on my C7, etc.

Admittedly, progress is damnably slow - we were talking about tank replacements, Iltis replacements, 5/4 replacements (it has happened, but do they really work?), etc. long before I left.  About the only real success seems to be in the area of wheeled AFVs and perhaps new light arty.  And that opens up a whole other discussion, doesn‘t it?

As for the Somolia kit being re-issued for Afgahnistan -- it was my understanding that much of that kit had to be destroyed because of it having become dust-impregnated and concerns about bringing the kit back into Canada.  Can anyone confirm this?


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## cagomez (18 Jan 2002)

Well, if our troops over in Afghanistan aren‘t going to to have descent cam over there they might as well ditch their combats and dress like the locals. It amy be dangerous for friendly fire and they better not get captured wearing the stuff but at least they will blend in. I‘ve seen pics of some member of the advance party wearing our green CADPAT helmet standing next to some marine in TAN BDUs. the poor guy might as well be wearing a marker vest. Why didn‘t anybody think of this sooner. I‘ve seen tan combats on ex before and if they can‘t get them why can‘t they at least borrow them from one of our allies like the yanks or Brits. Afghanistan has to be one of the biggest "combat" ops our forces will see and I hate to see anything bad happen due to useless uniforms. Cam and concealment has to be one of the most basic field crafts  :cam:


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## snooprobbiedog (18 Jan 2002)

The desert combats I‘m talking about (having worn them as enemy force on an ex, and worn by our people in Somalia back in ‘93) are not desert CADPAT, they‘re simply plain sand coloured combats (i.e. like our current OD combats, just sand colour)... How come our people in Afghanistan aren‘t wearing them?

Rob


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## Jungle (18 Jan 2002)

As many of you have stated, it is complete nonsense to have troops dressed in woodland camo in the desert; How long have we known about this deployment ? Was it that hard to contract a few thousand sets of tans (the old style) before the troops deployed ? I taught a sniper course and each candidate was GIVEN a set of tans as a base for a ghillie suit... why didn‘t we keep the tans at the national level until the desert cadpats were available ? The answer is simple: we have no strategic vision... "if we don‘t need it today, then let‘s get rid of it" Same thing happened to the M-72... most units still have not seen the M-203, but the M72 is gone.


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## Korus (18 Jan 2002)

All the pictures I‘ve seen of Canadians in Somalia where with green camo.. One picture really struck me.. It‘s all sand colour, except for a few green guys who stuck out..

But remember.. We don‘t need more funding for better equipment, we need better tactics! [/sarcasm]


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## JRMACDONALD (20 Jan 2002)

Jesus , guys-- wake up and smell the coffee!
Yes , it would be great to have a cbt uniform for every enviroment we run into, but look at the time lines. there is a CADPAT(AR) uniform in progress, but the focus is on just getting the normal stuff (CADPAT)out! Clothe the Soldier won‘t be finished for , at least , another 3-4years.  this Afgahn deployment came up in the last 3 months!!!  **** , I just got issued the last of my IECS, in OD!!( still missing  one item!) Small aside- Does any body think
we ‘re re painting all those coyotes/ LAV/ Iltis we are going to use there? stop whining!!!


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## enfield (20 Jan 2002)

The Coyotes are being repainted.

Your right, Desert CADPAT should not be expected so soon after Green CADPAT. Of course, if this Tease the Soldier thing had been run and funded correctly, we would have had it all for awhile. I think they began to advertise CTS far to early - well before they could produce the results they were bragging about.

But, we‘ve had OD combats for a few decades now. AND NOWHERE IN CANADA IS THERE A STOCK OF DESERT COMBATS??!!
For the love of God... we only need two colours! Green and Brown!! Is it a surprise we might have to fight a war in a desert areas?? 
In my mind there is no excuse for the CF not to have at least one stock of desert combats somewhere in the system. Desert boots are somehow still kicking around...
Why in God‘s name do we keep winter white‘s around? For the past 12 years there has been a far higher probability of war in a desert than winter enviroment.


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## portcullisguy (20 Jan 2002)

I know funding is a big issue... and yes we should have proper clothing that fits the environment, but, I‘d like to hear what the troops over the water have to say about wearing the issued pattern material uniforms.

I mean, operationally, will it make that much of a difference?

First off, at night, no one can tell a green uniform from a sand one except in bright moonlight, and even then it‘s a tough one.  If the troops spend the majority of the time in a camp environment, it won‘t make a lick of difference what colour your uniform is when the mortar shells drop inside the wire.  The only time I can see where it matters is when it‘s time to do day light patrols on foot, outside of the safety of a forward base.  How often are they doing this?  Are they doing it with U.S. or just our own troops?


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## Andyboy (21 Jan 2002)

Should the troops have desert uniforms? Yes, probably, but where do they fall in the order of priorities?  Before or after modern, effective, frag vests? There are troops there wearing old US PAGST vests! Before of after useful load bearing equipment? Do we delay the general issue of CADPAT to the troops so we can give everyone a set or two of the desert versions? If it was such an important priority why wasn‘t anyone asking about it BEFORE the deployment?  Enfield asks a good question "Is it a surprise we might have to fight a war in a desert areas??" I think the answer is yes, it is a surprise. In fact I think it came as a pretty big surprise to the people who "make the decisions" that we might have to fight a war at all.


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## centurion (21 Jan 2002)

In order to get what‘s needed, equipment wise, no matter what it is, we need one thing first. A government that cares! Cretin and his merry band of lemmings will continue to neglect the military as long as he stays as dictator of Canada. Do you think he‘s going to gear the boys up in desert uniforms? Not while he sees nothing wrong with having our guys fly around in Sea Kings. He‘s a millstone around the neck of the populace. 
 If it‘s good for our guys, professionally, morally, ethically or otherwise, you can bet he won‘t give it to them. Not until someone is killed, then he‘ll pick a ministry to blame it on, give the head a patronage appt to the Bahamas, and call a study.
As long as this pompous, arrogant, self appointed despot is in charge, chortaling in his money room as the populace starves, we have no hope. And neither do the proud, willing men and women of our Canadian Armed Forces.


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## RCA (22 Jan 2002)

People are forgetting that it is not just the CADPAT combats. It includes the load carrying vest, flak vest, and helmet cover. Yes give them desert cam and then cover with a green load-carrying vest.

The desert CADPAT (I just found out this weekend) is just going up for bid now, so there is no way that it could or would be ready for this unexpected deployment. The CF set its priorities for temperate CADPAT as well they should. 20/20 hindsight doesn’t count. And after meeting some involved in the program (cbt arms I may add) are doing the best job they can, trying to meet our demands WRT the new eqpt.

And does anyone serious believe that the Bn CO hasn‘t considered that his BG is going into a arid situation with temperate cam. Either he didn‘t consider it a problem, or he is going with the best available. Don‘t you think that his Bde Comd, Area Comd, Comd LFC, Ops at NDHQ considered it. No matter what anyone thinks, these men holding these positions are professional and competent and will consider and give all to the success of the mission. They don‘t want to see anyone die as much as we don‘t. So stop being armchair strategists, because 3 PPCLI will do us proud with the eqpt they have


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## Recce41 (22 Jan 2002)

For all of you out in the MO world, and others that have not been there.
 1. Yes we do have Tan Combats, but people order the damn thinks for ex.
 2. We wore green in Somalia for months.
 3. The US wear green there too, and not too many have tan flak jackets. 
  4. I would rather wear the old grren than the new there. If no tan.
 5. Its the real world, money is tight.
 6. I was on tours that we were short the old.
 7. So there will be no change, we are the Johny come Lately Army.

 Sgt J. CD,CDS com


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## Marauder (23 Jan 2002)

Well, if nothing else, those nice shiny new greens should cut down on blue-on-blues. The Marines will be too busy laughing their asses off to keep a decent sight picture.


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## Disturbance (24 Jan 2002)

hopefully all this bad publicity will speed things along. 

Why is that a lot of the NA guys‘ uniform among many other fighters over there have moderate colored combats? Aside from the fact that that is all they could get there hands on.


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## enfield (24 Jan 2002)

portiscully-
if our guys are going to be spending all their time in the camp, why the ****  are we sending them? There are plenty of gates to guard in Bosnia....

I certainly don‘t expect there to be a stock of Desert CADPAT ready so soon, that would be unrealistic. However, our mono-color desert combats seem to evaporated. I don‘t know when we acquired them originally - apparently at some point someone thought the desert was a potential combat theatre - but I find it amazing that a stock wasn‘t kept around, somewhere.

We sent troops to The Gulf War, Somalia, Eritria/Ethiopia, Golan, Sinai, Morocco, so it can‘t be said that the idea of deploying to the desert never occurred to anyone.

Is it a big deal? Probably - otherwise, why would militaries invest in desert uniforms?

Of course the mission commander and everyone on up thought of this - but there aren‘t any solutions available now to fix it. The budget just isn‘t big enough to prepare adequately for all eventualities. And I think this is just the tip of the ice berg,a nd if it as the only problem it owuld be nothing to worry about. But crcaks are already beginning to show in other areas - like transport.


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## rceme_rat (24 Jan 2002)

Not to nitpick, but nobody has the intention of our troops hiding on the Golan or in the Sinai.  Everyone knows where the positions are, who is there, etc.  Numerous large flags fly daily just to clarify it for those who can‘t count the white trucks with the big "UN" on the side.  

Daily wear during my year on the Golan was standard combats or those funny tropical things -- most of the time with a unit T-shirt.  Some people wore the dress tans.

Nonetheless, it would be nice to think we could at least afford the costumes to play our assigned part on the world stage -- particularly in theatres that are a little more intense than a 20+ year old PK mission.


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## enfield (25 Jan 2002)

National Post reports today that between 2000 and 2001 DND sold of the entire existing stock of desert combats to surplus stores. The combats were produced in 1992 and maintaind until last year. They‘re now on racks at Toronto surplus stores for $100. 

Now which genius thought of that?

I realize that we weren‘t going to try to hide at Golan and Sinai, but I think it shows that deploying Canadian soldiers to a desert environment was not unthinkable.


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## rceme_rat (25 Jan 2002)

Fair enough - but there are plenty of potential missions which are not unthinkable.  Our focus remained central Europe and defence of Canada, however, even after the Berlin wall came tumbling down.  With such an aim, urban combats would rank as a higher priority than desert.  

You still have to wonder how much it was costing to store the tan cbts, and how much they sold them for.


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## Michael Dorosh (27 Jan 2002)

> Originally posted by Enfield:
> [qb]National Post reports today that between 2000 and 2001 DND sold of the entire existing stock of desert combats to surplus stores. The combats were produced in 1992 and maintaind until last year. They‘re now on racks at Toronto surplus stores for $100.
> 
> Now which genius thought of that?[/qb]


It‘s an outdated pattern, what‘s the problem?  They could have kept Khaki Drill around for years after adopting Bush Dress, too, but they didn‘t. Don‘t blame them, either.  You adopt a new uniform, you get rid of the old ones. 

Much ado about nothing.


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## Jungle (27 Jan 2002)

Well, if you‘re going to buy new kit, shouldn‘t you keep the old one until you receive the new stuff ???It‘s like if I decided to buy a new TV next month, but threw away the older one next week... I,ll save a few cents on my electricity bill, but I won‘t be watching TV for a while...   :sniper:


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## spacemarine (27 Jan 2002)

The government could have just bought the combats from a different manufacturer. It does not take a long time to put CADPAT into production, just look at all the companies that are releasing CADPAT products. On one of the other forums a guy is selling CADPAT smocks (same guy said he offered to outfit PPCLI in desert CADPAT smock + 2 pants for the entire battlegroup) and lightfighter is selling CADPAT chest webbing. There‘s also CADPAT bags and accessories at local stores. If the government wanted the troops to have the combats they could have done it no problem.


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## fortuncookie5084 (28 Jan 2002)

Reference the above post, though spacemarine‘s suggestion makes the most sense in wartime (that‘s now, folks) I‘m sure the DND has a contract with one particular manufacturer.  Common sense does not apply in this case.  A contract is a contract.  

What‘s the word on a rumoured poncho/blanket spiel in beige or desert pattern being distributed to our combat forces?  I‘ve heard talk but nothing authoritative.  Sounds like a stop-gap until the MND‘s ETA for the CADPAT-Arid Climate, which is early summer.


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## bossi (7 Feb 2002)

Talk about "stop gap" - read this (CIL takes on a whole new meaning ... sure hope it‘s "anti-IR" latex paint)!!!

Canadian troops forced to paint uniforms 
‘We were looking around ... at how much we stand out,‘ one says 
(From Toronto Star)

CP PHOTO/Kevin Frayer 
Soldiers of the Princess Patricia‘s Canadian Light Infantry shown at Kandahar Airbase in Afghanistan, Feb. 3, 2002. 

KANDAHAR, Afghanistan (CP) — A group of Canadian soldiers are using beige paint, brushes and sand bags in a chameleon act aimed at adapting their forest green camouflage for the desert environment of Kandahar.

Members of one platoon of the Princess Patricia‘s Canadian Light Infantry Battle Group, some of whom could be on patrol by this weekend, spent today altering their helmets, weapons and rucksacks in what could become a standard for the entire battalion.

"We were looking around — at how much we were sticking out," Sgt. Matt Austin, of Five Platoon, B Company, said Thursday.

"We took it upon ourselves, like all Canadians have done from the First World War, to improvise, adapt and overcome."

"We skillfully acquired some paint, and we‘re just blending our equipment as much as we can into the desert environment. And we managed to grab some sand bags and do our helmets."

It all started when the battalion, based in Edmonton, found itself with no desert camouflage when it was called on to serve in Afghanistan. Desert uniforms, they were told, would not be ready until the summer.

The soldiers had to deploy with the stark forest green uniforms, raising concerns about their utility and safety against a uniformly dull, beige background. 

The issue was a major controversy in Ottawa, where it was framed as yet another example of how government underfunding has hurt the Canadian Forces.

In Edmonton, some of the soldiers had already begun spray-painting their gear, before they were issued a lighter coloured blanket of sorts that they could wear on top of their uniforms if needed.

But on Thursday morning — after a few days of being on the ground and taking in their surroundings — the Five Platoon‘s commander made the call that all the gear should be painted and shown to the battalion‘s top soldier.

Equipment, flak jackets and weapons are getting a light, patchy paint job with latex paint scrounged up from around here, sometimes topped up with a sprinkle of sand. Helmets are getting a light base coat, then a bit of netting to give them depth. 

Commanding officer Lt.-Col. Pat Stogran is so impressed that if after a trial run the camouflage looks good, the entire battalion will have to fall into line.

"I encouraged everyone ... to be brilliant at the basics, and these guys are all experts at camouflage and they‘re doing what‘s necessary to ensure their safety," he said.

"I‘m particularly proud of the fact that these guys are using their initiative, their imagination."

Stogran is particularly impressed with one enterprising Five Platoon soldier who, prior to leaving Edmonton, had an extra camouflage blanket he bought himself sewn into a smock that could be worn over the existing uniform.

The concept was so appealing that it has been referred to headquarters back in Canada for possible mass production.

The smock has a hood, a plastic zipper, and "best of all, it breathes," its designer, Master Cpl. Chris Thombs said in an interview.

"Everybody is saying I should start working on my patent," he said.

"I‘ve released the intellectual property to the battalion, so we‘ll see what happens after that. I‘ve got more pressing concerns here on the ground." 

While the Canadians are currently wearing all green, Americans on the base are dressed in desert camouflage — albeit with dark green flak jackets.

With preparations being made for the soldiers to begin operations, it was important to really look the part, said Five Platoon commander Glenn Cowan.

"We don‘t want to be just physically blending in, but emotionally and mentally," he said.

"When you take pride in what you‘re doing and you feel that you look the part, you know you‘re going to perform better. My football coach always said `look good, feel good, play good,‘ and I‘m using that sort of attitude here."

Canadian soldiers say they‘ve had the odd look and query from Americans since they arrived last week, but it hasn‘t been a big issue.

"They‘re more worried about us being here as warm bodies being able to do the job than how we‘re dressed," said Thombs.

While some soldiers blamed the government for putting them in this situation due to underfunding, Stogran said they just have to make do with what they have.

"It‘d be nice if we had attack helicopters, a Predator, and F-18s ... but it‘s really nice that were here.

"We have to focus on mission success and not cry about spilt milk or anything like that. You know the uniforms will come, but we‘ve got a job to do."  
- 30 -


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## fortuncookie5084 (7 Feb 2002)

(sigh) If it‘s stupid but it works, then it isn‘t stupid.


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## enfield (9 Feb 2002)

Spo there I was watching the opening ceremonies on NBC last night.... everyone once in a while it would siwtch to a liv feed of American troops in Kandahar watcing the ceremonies. When the Norweigan team walked out, it switched to a live feed of Norweigan soldiers in Kandahar cheering.

And guess what? The NORWEIGANS have desert uniforms!!! Maybe the got‘em from the yanks, maybe they hav ethem issued, but they were not spray painted, self-made, or any other form of handicraft. Now, if Norway - a nation that doesn‘t come close to us in GDP, role in int‘l affairs, deployment of troops, and centers on homeland defense - has desert combats, I see little excuse for us not too.


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## Spr Earl (9 Feb 2002)

Having been on Ex.‘s in the state‘s in the Desert and wearing green ,all‘s we did for vehicle‘s was make a lrge mud puddle and went made with broom‘s covering them with mud and as to our uniform we rolled around in the dust just to lighten the uniform and it worked very well!but a bitch at end Ex when we had to clean up    :crybaby:


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## Jungle (9 Feb 2002)

I saw norwegian troops in Macedonia, and they were the best equipped infantry around. All their kit was designed to fit together, and functional... looks like they had CTS a few years ago...


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## Jungle (12 Feb 2002)

Talking about Norwegian troops, I saw them on the news in Kandahar, and they were wearing US desert camo, with Norwegian flag patches on the sleeves.


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## Guy Cramer (25 Feb 2002)

My company is making defense products from Camouflage materials including CADPAT Temperate Woodland (TW) the nylon mixed with the Cotton makes the material tough to mask with dirt, the CF research spent years on materials and designs so the Camo would retain pattern in dirt and wet conditions. 

CADPAT has been rated best Temperate and Tropical Camouflage pattern by NATO soldiers in a recent scientific study. 

The CADPAT AR is not yet available to the regular Canadian Forces. However, it should be out there in very very very limited supply. My site shows both patterns and the new MARPAT (U.S. Marine Pattern camouflage), which was developed with the help of the Canadians, based on the years of research, see:  http://www.hyperstealth.com    

Sincerely,
Guy Cramer


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## Infanteer (25 Feb 2002)

Nice site, who‘s the babe and what is so hyperstealthy about her?


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## Spr Earl (25 Feb 2002)

Iike her sock‘s!
Are you an American or Canadian Company?

 Exscuse me I see you are on the west coast of B.C.


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## Guy Cramer (25 Feb 2002)

She‘s my sister-in-law (happly married), as said earlier, `look good, feel good, play good,‘ she has the first one down. 

Currently the U.S. Navy SEAL‘s (NSWU-2) have scheduled testing with our Passive Negative Ion Generators with their snipers, U.S. Army Command, U.S. Space and Naval Warfare Systems Command, U.S. Marines G3, and NASA JPL are also testing it. Israeli Special Forces have also acquired some.

Negative Ions have no known side effects and have been recognized by the U.S. Navy to keep bridge crews awake and alert on night duty as they keep brain waves at a range close to 10 cycles a second (alert, yet calm) where active negative ion generators were installed on U.S. Navy flag ships. Other benefits appear to be increased reaction time, balance, stamina and endurance... Our generator doesn‘t require a power source and can be clipped on to the uniform. Our device is 3 1/2" long x 1 1/2" wide and about 1/2" thick clips on the collar or under brim of hats or helmets. It emits 600 negative ions per cubic centimetre. 

As a Canadian company we looked at the fact that many of the command elements of the U.S. were interested and the Canadian Military was out of the loop. Looking to change this I have people contacting their friends in Canadian Military (my people are contacting a Colonel, Lieutenant, and a member of Joint Task Force Two) to send samples to for trails. We have obtained the new CADPAT Camouflage design and have a number of samples in CADPAT on hand for testing with the Canadian Forces Command and JTF2. We expect to price the Camouflage device around $15.00 CDN each.

Sincerely,
Guy Cramer, President
HyperStealth Biotechnology Corp.
www.hyperstealth.com


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## Fishbone Jones (1 Mar 2002)

Never mind desert cadpat. I found it ironic, that tonite, on Royal Canadian Air Farce the chicken cannon crew is now outfitted in cadpats. They‘ve exchanged their regular combats for the new stuff. Must have something to do with being a crown corp! So, while we don‘t know when we‘ll even see ours, civies are wearing it on tv (and not to properly either). On the good side, they had a serving reg and a reservist in full gear showing the flag. Let‘s hope the uniforms were only loaned for the one program or I‘ll be pissed. I suppose I could buy some from the surplus store in Edmonton, he‘s already got it in stock, for sale on EBay.


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## Recce41 (2 Mar 2002)

Well the Cadpat was out in some suplus stores two yrs ago. I had mine then, remember the first issue was around in 98. But this was the FIRST issue. Its not the patented clothing we all got and getting, The first issue was in the old material not the new S***ie cloth it is now. You can keep it. Most of us are still wearing our old cbts, its better. So its not cool. It sucks for winter green/ white mix. They spent mils testing it and we here in Petawawa fault the first batch, They never did change it.

Sgt J.  CD,CDS com   Airborne, Bold and swift


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## IamCDN (5 Mar 2002)

I saw a video clip on CNN. It was showing defense department footage of the latest assault on the bad guys. The Americans were wearing GREEN cold weather clothing. That should end the debate aboput Arid CADPAT. They will get it when it is ready, shame it wasn‘t ready earlier, but at least it is comming.


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## Xavier Basora (8 Mar 2002)

Hi all:
Not to complain or anything but I‘m quite surprised that the powers that be didn‘t also manufacture an urban combat pattern. According to the UN by 2020-or 2030 for the first time in human history slightly more than 60% of humanity willl ive in some kind of urban landscape.

One in passim comment: I‘m not surprised that teh American press makes the new marine patern sound like it was invented by americans. isn‘t the U.S. teh centre of all technological innovation?   :


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## enfield (8 Mar 2002)

I‘ve always thought urban camo was a stupid idea. Operations would likely shft between urban and wilderness way to fast to make it practical. 

Advancing through the woods towards teh city will make you look awful obvious in urban cam. Retreating away froim the city into the woods will also make you look awful obvious.

What color exactly is urban cam? I don‘t think there‘s been any proof of what exactly makes a good urban cam, far to much variety in colors in the city. Also, there‘s a world of difference between Mogadishu and Sarajevo or Berlin and Tokyo.  What works in New York is useless in Kabul.


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## Jungle (8 Mar 2002)

Believe it or not, our great thinkers have already thought about this and the next project, after "temperate weather" and "arid region" will be "urban" CADPAT.


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## Xavier Basora (8 Mar 2002)

Enfield:
I respectfully disagree. I‘ve been in cities and other urban agglomerations where there‘s no nature to speak of. Look at Mexico city or the favelas in Brazil. Tokyo is yet another.  
I exclude parks because there‘re too small to make much difference in such areas. 
Personally I think some desert combats would be quite effective. I‘d go further and argue that a mix of desert pattern pants and an urban jacket would be ideal.
In any case, I‘ll be very interested to see if the designers just take the temperate pattern and substitute the gren for a grey of some kind and make teh brown more reddish- like a burnt sienna or even ochre.
xavier


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## rceme_rat (9 Mar 2002)

The difficulty with urban camo is equal to that of finding one "natural camo" -- there is too much diversity of urban environments.  The villages and cities of the Middle East appear to have much different colouring than those of North America.  E.g., where many of our small towns are brick and wood, most of the buildings I saw on the Golan were concrete.  As a result, we may need more than one urban pattern.  There is also the matter of seasons - are we going to develop a winter urban uniform, a summer urban uniform, etc?  

Given our limited resources, we need to focus on reducing the number of line items in the system, not adding to them. Think of the effect each new pattern has - it affects uniforms, web gear, helmet covers, rain gear, boots, gloves, etc.  Each kit item has to be carried in a multitude of sizes.  These have to be stocked all over the country.  Extras of each size are needed to ensure that each soldier is fitted correctly.  Spares are required.  The result of adopting a new pattern is exponential growth in waste.  

Finally, who the ****  is going to carry all this kit - if we are fighting in a mixed urban/rural environment, are we going to be changing continuously from one pattern into the other as we advance over several hundered miles of countryside??

Since urban patterns might be of great appeal to police forces, they may be the source of a product if it is proved necessary.  While most seem to wear black, research on camo could lead to the development of a more effective mix of colour, pattern and shading.  Perhaps we can let the private sector take the lead on developing product for this immense market - and we can then see whether anything worthwhile can be gleaned from their efforts.  Even then, it seems like it might be best suited for equipping small teams for specialist missions.

In short - we can spend our resources more effectively than by worrying about urban camo.


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