# Question about monthly limit on Class A pay for Reservists



## devsnrnco (21 Mar 2021)

I have a few questions about Class A pay and was hoping that any provided answers could include a reference to source documentation. I've received so many different answers from my CoC, BOR, different units, etc on this topic and have ended up doing a ton of pro bono admin as a result. I'll need source documentation because having the correct answers given to me on a forum won't be of much help, as I'll need to reference policies if the information discovered here reveals a discrepancy with my unit's business practices.

1. Is the monthly limit on Class A pay 12 or 15 days? My BOR tells me it's 15, but this document says 12: https://www.cafconnection.ca/getmedia/061d1d28-5da0-42bf-b14f-1a22ad36b75e/Reservists-Booklet.aspx

2. Is the monthly limit on Class A pay specifically for full days or is it for number of pay sheets submitted? I've always been told that a half day counts as a day insofar as the monthly cap is concerned, but this makes no sense to me and I'm convinced that 2 half days should count as 1 day when it comes to respecting the cap. Therefore, IMO, it should be possible to submit some combination of, say 20-30 different half/full day sheets in a given month.

I have gone though the documents below but could not find the necessary answers:

- Chapter 204 - Pay of Officers & Non-Commissioned Members - Canada.ca

- CF Mil Pers Instr


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## brihard (21 Mar 2021)

If they won’t pay you, don’t work. “Pro Bono” admin isn’t a thing that should exist. Your unit, as the employer, should adequately fund and resource the problem, and if they’re risking exceeding the Class A limits, the chain of command should properly address the problem by requesting authorization at the appropriate levels. When you work for free, you let them kick the problem down the road.


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## Haggis (21 Mar 2021)

brihard said:


> If they won’t pay you, don’t work. “Pro Bono” admin isn’t a thing that should exist.


I'm guessing you're too young to remember pink pay sheets.


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## SeaKingTacco (21 Mar 2021)

I am uncertain what the actual upper limit of Class A per month, is. Some of it seems to depends which service you belong to. The RCAF standard seems to be 12 days/month, with the ability to go to 14 days if the overall pay budget allows for it. This comes with some caveats. You should not work 5 consecutive days without a day off, unless you have CoC permission (like you intend on taking the second half of a month off for holidays, so want all of your days front loaded). The theory is that if you work a full week, routinely, your CoC should be placing you on Class B- so it is for your protection against being abused.

I have never seen or heard of a half day pay sheet limit, so long as you don’t exceed the total number of days authorized in a month and, I suppose, work 5 consecutive half days in a row.

Keep in mind, I am a simple user of the Class A system and not an Administrator of it, so others may be more knowledgeable than me.


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## Haggis (21 Mar 2021)

A member can work up to 12 consecutive days.  Anything beyond that should be Class B.  Only the Army sets a limit on how many cumulative days per month a member may work.  I believe it's 16.

I'm sure someone else will be along shortly to clarify if "a day is a day".


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## daftandbarmy (21 Mar 2021)

Haggis said:


> I'm guessing you're too young to remember pink pay sheets.



Dude... anyone who isn't just about first in line for a COVID shot doesn't remember pink pay sheets.

I'm so old I thought we'd signed blue ones too?


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## devsnrnco (21 Mar 2021)

Haggis said:


> I'm guessing you're too young to remember pink pay sheets.


I joined in 2010 so nope I've definitely never heard of those lol


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## devsnrnco (21 Mar 2021)

brihard said:


> If they won’t pay you, don’t work. “Pro Bono” admin isn’t a thing that should exist. Your unit, as the employer, should adequately fund and resource the problem, and if they’re risking exceeding the Class A limits, the chain of command should properly address the problem by requesting authorization at the appropriate levels. When you work for free, you let them kick the problem down the road.


Unfortunately it's not always that straightforward. I'm often dealing with fastballs while at home in a "work now and sign in later" situation. I can't just dig my heels in and say "can't do it until I'm signed in" or else I'd be screwing over my subordinates, making them miss out on courses, being late on administering PDRs effectively for disciplinary issues, failing the RSM when time-sensitive returns are required, and so many more situations where I'd quickly earn a reputation as a shitpump leader. Maybe I'll develop that level of stubbornness in a few years once my GAFF has inevitably worn off lol


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## devsnrnco (21 Mar 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> I am uncertain what the actual upper limit of Class A per month, is. Some of it seems to depends which service you belong to. The RCAF standard seems to be 12 days/month, with the ability to go to 14 days if the overall pay budget allows for it. This comes with some caveats. You should not work 5 consecutive days without a day off, unless you have CoC permission (like you intend on taking the second half of a month off for holidays, so want all of your days front loaded). The theory is that if you work a full week, routinely, your CoC should be placing you on Class B- so it is for your protection against being abused.
> 
> I have never seen or heard of a half day pay sheet limit, so long as you don’t exceed the total number of days authorized in a month and, I suppose, work 5 consecutive half days in a row.
> 
> Keep in mind, I am a simple user of the Class A system and not an Administrator of it, so others may be more knowledgeable than me.


Ok I should have specified this in my original post. I try to keep things as general as possible because I don't want to identify myself or my unit. This would be for Army Reserve. Those caveats you mentioned - any idea where they are spelled out in detail? I'm trying to fit in a bunch of paysheets before end of FY but it's hard without knowing all the BS rules that we never receive any sort of training for (or maybe it's explained on BMQ but who the hell remembers death by powerpoint while sleep fked).


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## ModlrMike (21 Mar 2021)

Maximum permissible Class A is 120 days per year. There is a secondary limit of 12 continuous days per month. This means that one could in theory work 24 five day weeks in a row. 

Unit orderly rooms should combine 1/2 day paysheets on the same day into a single day when entering the pay. If you're doing work between normal parade timings, perhaps the monthly paysheet is a better option for tracking that.

I don't have the reference document to hand, but I believe there is a MilPersInstr on the subject.


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## brihard (21 Mar 2021)

devsnrnco said:


> Ok I should have specified this in my original post. I try to keep things as general as possible because I don't want to identify myself or my unit. This would be for Army Reserve. Those caveats you mentioned - any idea where they are spelled out in detail? I'm trying to fit in a bunch of paysheets before end of FY but it's hard without knowing all the BS rules that we never receive any sort of training for (or maybe it's explained on BMQ but who the hell remembers death by powerpoint while sleep fked).


I meant that in the sense of having an agreement with the chain of command that admin will be compensated fairly. I remember as a section commander while going to university I’d frequently field fastballs, and I think that administratively I was a pretty effective leader. But my unit played ball, and would let us sign for a half day periodically to comp us for that stuff, on top of our weekly admin/lesson prep night.


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## SeaKingTacco (21 Mar 2021)

ModlrMike said:


> Maximum permissible Class A is 120 days per year. There is a secondary limit of 12 continuous days per month. This means that one could in theory work 24 five day weeks in a row.
> 
> Unit orderly rooms should combine 1/2 day paysheets on the same day into a single day when entering the pay. If you're doing work between normal parade timings, perhaps the monthly paysheet is a better option for tracking that.
> 
> I don't have the reference document to hand, but I believe there is a MilPersInstr on the subject.


Again, that maximum yearly limit seems to be malleable between Services. In the RCAF, as a Class A reservist I work at least 144 days Class A/year (12 x 12).

I do find it humorous that each service declares that they have the only legal way of paying reservists...


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## Remius (21 Mar 2021)

brihard said:


> I meant that in the sense of having an agreement with the chain of command that admin will be compensated fairly. I remember as a section commander while going to university I’d frequently field fastballs, and I think that administratively I was a pretty effective leader. But my unit played ball, and would let us sign for a half day periodically to comp us for that stuff, on top of our weekly admin/lesson prep night.


Same.  But I remember in 2010 when they froze and limited class A pay, our CoC was still pushing people to do work.  Our ops officer kept tasking me to provide returns for him.  I asked about pay and he said no pay so I sent him my nominal roll and told him he could do it since he was being paid.  After that he found a way to get me the class A to do it.


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## Kilted (21 Mar 2021)

Does anyone know what happens if you go over the Class A limit in any given month?  For example, if you end up working for multiply organizations (for example Battle School) and all the pay sheets arent submitted till after the month is over?


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## brihard (21 Mar 2021)

Kilted said:


> Does anyone know what happens if you go over the Class A limit in any given month?  For example, if you end up working for multiply organizations (for example Battle School) and all the pay sheets arent submitted till after the month is over?


It’s the army, so I’m assuming some NCO will be quick to tell you “people die!”

In practice, if anyone both notices AND cares, an email may be sent within the admin chain and someone will “oh, oops” it and you’ll be told in future to deconflict and advise your chain if you might come close.


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## Haggis (21 Mar 2021)

devsnrnco said:


> I joined in 2010 so nope I've definitely never heard of those lol


"Back in the day" unit leadership used to do training and admin on a voluntary basis. We used pink pay sheets so that if a member suffered an injury or illness they would be considered on duty. At the end of the training year, if there was any money left in the budget, those pink pay sheets would be sumitted for payment.  Unit budgets were much smaller back then. But so was the admin burden on the units. Today, higher HQs demand incessant RFIs and 
seem unable to send out anything that doesn't contain the phrase "regret short notice".


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## daftandbarmy (22 Mar 2021)

Haggis said:


> "Back in the day" unit leadership used to do training and admin on a voluntary basis. We used pink pay sheets so that if a member suffered an injury or illness they would be considered on duty. At the end of the training year, if there was any money left in the budget, those pink pay sheets would be sumitted for payment.  Unit budgets were much smaller back then. But so was the admin burden on the units. Today, higher HQs demand incessant RFIs and
> seem unable to send out anything that doesn't contain the phrase "regret short notice".



And, fun fact,  none of this 'volunteer' time was recorded in any fancy schmancy 'system' so it will never count against any pension calculations etc.


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## Haggis (22 Mar 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> And, fun fact,  none of this 'volunteer' time was recorded in any fancy schmancy 'system' so it will never count against any pension calculations etc.


Because "back in the day" no one even considered making a part-time job a pensionable endeavour.  That these volunteer days may need to be counted as earned towards something, anything other than a CD was just "out there".

On a related note I recall reading a Briefing Note that had been sent to my boss when I worked in HR-Mil proposing that a wholesale change to the calculation of CD eligibility should be done for Reservists based on "a day is a day", meaning a Reservist would have to accumulate 4380 real days of service before being eligible for a CD.  This was during the days when they were still trying to figure out how to determine pension eligibility for Reservists and how to calculate Class A Reserve service.


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## daftandbarmy (22 Mar 2021)

Haggis said:


> Because "back in the day" no one even considered making a part-time job a pensionable endeavour.  That these volunteer days may need to be counted as earned towards something, anything other than a CD was just "out there".
> 
> On a related note I recall reading a Briefing Note that had been sent to my boss when I worked in HR-Mil proposing that a wholesale change to the calculation of CD eligibility should be done for Reservists based on "a day is a day", meaning a Reservist would have to accumulate 4380 real days of service *EMAILS *before being eligible for a CD.  This was during the days when they were still trying to figure out how to determine pension eligibility for Reservists and how to calculate Class A Reserve service.



FTFY... that would be a much more realistic target to hit


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## Blackadder1916 (22 Mar 2021)

Haggis said:


> On a related note I recall reading a Briefing Note that had been sent to my boss when I worked in HR-Mil proposing that a wholesale change to the calculation of CD eligibility should be done for Reservists based on "a day is a day", meaning a Reservist would have to accumulate 4380 real days of service before being eligible for a CD.  This was during the days when they were still trying to figure out how to determine pension eligibility for Reservists and how to calculate Class A Reserve service.



And in keeping with "heritage and tradition" then calculation for Reg Force CDs should change to the eligibility requirements that existed when there were separate long service medals and decorations for regular and reserve.  When the single medal for all was selected, the 12 year requirement came from the Efficiency Medal (and Decoration for officers) which was the award for Reservists (clasps were for additional 6 years); Regulars (other ranks only) received the LS&GC for 18 years service (plus 10 more for the clasp), Regular officers got nothing.


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## Kilted (22 Mar 2021)

Haggis said:


> Because "back in the day" no one even considered making a part-time job a pensionable endeavour.  That these volunteer days may need to be counted as earned towards something, anything other than a CD was just "out there".
> 
> On a related note I recall reading a Briefing Note that had been sent to my boss when I worked in HR-Mil proposing that a wholesale change to the calculation of CD eligibility should be done for Reservists based on "a day is a day", meaning a Reservist would have to accumulate 4380 real days of service before being eligible for a CD.  This was during the days when they were still trying to figure out how to determine pension eligibility for Reservists and how to calculate Class A Reserve service.


Any change like that would have to be done by the Crown and would be out of the hands of the military.  There certainly would be a lot fewer CD's handed out to PRES.  Without any prior service, CIC Officers would require 175 years in uniform to qualify.


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## CountDC (21 Apr 2021)

and for the OP

if you are in Toronto for your div you are auth 60 days of class a.  You can work a maximum 12 consecutive days and a max of 15 days in the month.  The CO can auth you to work an additional 80 days.  If you have over 60 days then your HRA staff should be staffing a request to exceed the 80 days to bde (unless bde comd has already blanket authorized 100 days which may be the case).    In total counting the levels of auth there is the potential of 120 days with div comd approval.   Could go higher but to my knowledge div comd would not support a request exceeding his ceiling limit.


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## dapaterson (21 Apr 2021)

CountDC said:


> and for the OP
> 
> if you are in Toronto for your div you are auth 60 days of class a.  You can work a maximum 12 consecutive days and a max of 15 days in the month.  The CO can auth you to work an additional 80 days.  If you have over 60 days then your HRA staff should be staffing a request to exceed the 80 days to bde (unless bde comd has already blanket authorized 100 days which may be the case).    In total counting the levels of auth there is the potential of 120 days with div comd approval.   Could go higher but to my knowledge div comd would not support a request exceeding his ceiling limit.



The CO can auth additional days up to a total of 80, not an additional 80 days.


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## daftandbarmy (21 Apr 2021)

Blackadder1916 said:


> And in keeping with "heritage and tradition" then calculation for Reg Force CDs should change to the eligibility requirements that existed when there were separate long service medals and decorations for regular and reserve.  When the single medal for all was selected, the 12 year requirement came from the Efficiency Medal (and Decoration for officers) which was the award for Reservists (clasps were for additional 6 years); Regulars (other ranks only) received the LS&GC for 18 years service (plus 10 more for the clasp), Regular officers got nothing.



Still the case in the UK. Commissioned Officers are not eligible for gongs to recognize long service and good conduct. 

Those attributes are just assumed to be one important part of being a good leader


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## Blackadder1916 (21 Apr 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Still the case in the UK. Commissioned Officers are not eligible for gongs to recognize long service and good conduct.
> 
> Those attributes are just assumed to be one important part of being a good leader



That changed in 2016.






						Medals: campaigns, descriptions and eligibility
					

Details of the medals awarded to serving members of the armed forces, veterans and MOD employees; and who can receive them.




					www.gov.uk
				





> The Long Service and Good Conduct (LSGC) Medal for the army is awarded to personnel in recognition of long service. The regulations were updated on 1 October 2016.
> 
> To qualify, you must have:
> 
> ...


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## daftandbarmy (21 Apr 2021)

Blackadder1916 said:


> That changed in 2016.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good Lord... standards!


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## Halifax Tar (22 Apr 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Still the case in the UK. Commissioned Officers are not eligible for gongs to recognize long service and good conduct.
> 
> Those attributes are just assumed to be one important part of being a good leader



I see its changed, but I think the premise behind this was a good idea.


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## Kilted (22 Apr 2021)

CountDC said:


> and for the OP
> 
> if you are in Toronto for your div you are auth 60 days of class a.  You can work a maximum 12 consecutive days and a max of 15 days in the month.  The CO can auth you to work an additional 80 days.  If you have over 60 days then your HRA staff should be staffing a request to exceed the 80 days to bde (unless bde comd has already blanket authorized 100 days which may be the case).    In total counting the levels of auth there is the potential of 120 days with div comd approval.   Could go higher but to my knowledge div comd would not support a request exceeding his ceiling limit.


I have had to go through this process many times.  I've been over 130 once, but that was at the beginning of covid, and March got a lot busier then expected.


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## CountDC (22 Apr 2021)

oops, proof reading not there.  Correct up to an additional 80.  Thanks for picking that up


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