# Beware of an excellent language profile



## gunner065 (6 Dec 2007)

Good day all, I surely realized today that being granted an exempt for reading/writing/oral language profile in the Forces has both good and bad implications.  For the good stuff: It does give a boost for Merit Boards and PER, and can possible align you for a job requiring a particular language profile.  Bad: being told that because you are an examplary NCM that possesses an exempt across the board(for second language), that you are the preferred member to fill a recruiter position in a far away land, where you don't really want to go.  So if you are thinking about getting that extra 2 points on your PER, think again, yes it will help you if you are in the top 5, but as well, it might just got you posted to somewhere you would prefer not to go...food for thoughts.


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## medicineman (7 Dec 2007)

I get the distinct impression ypu're speaking from [a bad] experience?

MM


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## Greymatters (7 Dec 2007)

Did you consider that the reason you are going there is because they want the best and you might be it?  Sounds like a 'glass half-full' kind of talk...  you'll get the good positions eventually, not everybody gets their dream postings their entire career...


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## medicineman (7 Dec 2007)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> not everybody gets their dream postings their entire career...



or at all for that matter  ;D.

MM


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## xo31@711ret (7 Dec 2007)

or at all for that matter  .   

'Ditto'   ya goes where's ya needed & posted!   ;D


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## X-mo-1979 (7 Dec 2007)

Gunner is just venting.

Just think gunner someone with the same language profile has proably been asking for that posting for the past 3 years! ;D

I just escaped my posting from hell,I got no sympathy lol. >


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## NavyShooter (9 Dec 2007)

I walked into the last CM interview and told him in no uncertain terms to "NEVER POST ME OUTSIDE THE HALIFAX GEOGRAPHICAL AREA."

Kinda took him back until I explained that my wife is the owner/operator of a local hotel.  She's not able to just pick up and move.

Regardless of my EBB profile, I'm not leaving Halifax. 

NS


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## armyvern (9 Dec 2007)

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> Regardless of my EBB profile, I'm not leaving Halifax.



So, I guess you're putting your release in when the CF needs you elsewhere?  :

Must be nice to be stationary year after year after year.

19 years and 8 postings later ... I still go where they need me and when, sometimes IR if need be. I have no sympathy for those who find themselves posted somewhere where they don't like; it's happened a couple of times to me.

Do I think the CF is screwing me around by doing so? Nope ... it was part of the deal when I signed that dotted line.


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## NavyShooter (9 Dec 2007)

Vern,

Over the past 15+ years, 3's, 5's, PLQ, etc, plus postings to 5 different ships, all in Halifax? 

I can serve down here without leaving the area.  

I'll take a posting from ship to ship again instead of taking a shore posting inland (not that we have many in my trade).  

I was offered a spot in Whidby Island last summer, I turned it down.  The CM knew that was coming, but as the MS on the east coast with the most straight sailing time in my trade, he had to offer it to me first.  

I'm not saying I will not heed the call when my country calls.   Hell, how many folks do you know that have been recalled off parental leave and showed up ready to sail 2 hours later?  I'm just saying that I'll take the spots on the coast here, and let others handle the inland stuff.  

NS


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## ModlrMike (9 Dec 2007)

From my perspective you have two choices: STFU or GTFO.

Pick one.


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## armyvern (9 Dec 2007)

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> Vern,
> 
> Over the past 15+ years, 3's, 5's, PLQ, etc, plus postings to 5 different ships, all in Halifax?
> 
> ...



Let others handle the inland stuff?? You are a sailor. There are also other sailors who've done just as many "sea" postings as you have I'm sure.

I'm also quite sure there's a few of your trade bantering about CFRCs, CFRSs (just to name a few inland spots out of your nice and 'comfortable' no-go zone), and the grand ole puzzle palace -- and their wive's probably work too (or their husbands) ...

so ...

What makes YOU so special?? I'm quite curious.


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## dimsum (9 Dec 2007)

Whew!  Thank *insert deity here* that as an Air Nav, I won't be getting posted anywhere in Quebec and use my CCB french profile!   :


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## aesop081 (9 Dec 2007)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Whew!  Thank *insert deity here* that as an Air Nav, I won't be getting posted anywhere in Quebec and use my CCB french profile!   :



Funny that...we just had a Nav get posted to CFLRS. Your MOC doesn't make you immune to posting to "la belle province" my friend.


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## TCBF (10 Dec 2007)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> From my perspective you have two choices: STFU or GTFO.
> 
> Pick one.



- Unfair comment.  He stated his case, and set the parameters that would dictate his release.  If the CF takes him up on it, they get to promote into his vacancy.  Fair is fair.


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## ModlrMike (10 Dec 2007)

TCBF said:
			
		

> - Unfair comment.  He stated his case, and set the parameters that would dictate his release.  If the CF takes him up on it, they get to promote into his vacancy.  Fair is fair.



How so? Every year hundreds of folks go where they don't _want_ to go, and hundreds others get out. Fair is doing all of the job you're asked to do, not just the parts you like so that someone else picks up the slack.


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## eurowing (10 Dec 2007)

Why not just let the career manager worry about calling his bluff?  At least he was up front and honest about it.  His supervisor should of course, judge his CFPAS Potential under the catagory of Professional Development

consider evidence that the individual is attempting to enhance knowledge or skills through self-study initiatives and military or civilian courses. _In addition, the member accepts tasking that will prepare him/her for the responsibilities of the next rank._ and

Dedication
emphasize the individual’s dedication towards service in the CF; and

_consider whether the individual gives the CF high priority in relation to self-interests _ and the amount and frequency of extra effort expended by the individual on behalf of the CF. Recognize and reward the ability to balance organizational needs with own needs. The individual’s willingness to seek and accept additional responsibility assumes greater importance with increasing rank.


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## TCBF (10 Dec 2007)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> How so? Every year hundreds of folks go where they don't _want_ to go, and hundreds others get out. Fair is doing all of the job you're asked to do, not just the parts you like so that someone else picks up the slack.



- Fair is stating your case so your career manager can plan knowing that the next move is his.  Ever walk into a career briefing talking about what 'others' do?  No? So, why should we here.  If he is up front, the ball is in the CF court.  He ain't whining - he is stating his case.  If it leads to his release - so be it.  The reserves can use him.

- I would rather a thousand like him than all of those bloody malingerers we have milking VAC for all it is worth. (Note: If you are NOT a malingerer, do not be offended.  If you are: BE offended.).


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## ModlrMike (10 Dec 2007)

TCBF said:
			
		

> - Fair is stating your case so your career manager can plan knowing that the next move is his.



Yes it is. Fair is also providing the career manager with options other than "I'm not going, deal with it."


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## TCBF (10 Dec 2007)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Yes it is. Fair is also providing the career manager with options other than "I'm not going, deal with it."



- He gave the career manager two options, both fair:

1. Leave him where he is.
2. Release him.

The CM can now take that info into account.  This will come up for merit boards and career courses.  The CM and CoC will begin grooming and developing others in his trade to bypass him as needed.  They will favour them in assigning developmental and successional tasks - AS THEY SHOULD.

He will be released or bypassed, according to the exigincies of the service.

He will remain a self-limiter only as long as the CF finds a need for his 'situation' - no longer.

That's what 'fair' means.


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## SweetNavyJustice (10 Dec 2007)

I think the discussion is a bit of a dead one.  

As a navy NCM, you pretty much never change your coast unless you ask for the change.  Even then, you're only likely go get that request passed of you're moving East to West.  Not that people don't move West to East, it's just not as common.  

In the Navy, the postings are to the different ships, and then these move - and move they do.  I know from my days at sea, I never spent anything less than 6 months gone, and with a Gulf tour, spent 10 months gone out of 12.  

As a Navy person telling the career manager not to move them off the coast, it's more puff with very little blow.  There are pleanty of people looking for shore postings that if a person doesn't want one, the career manager just passes the position on to the next person.  They are more than happy to leave a person at sea.  Especially a NET where they are already short bodies.  

As I said, the argument is moot.


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## ModlrMike (10 Dec 2007)

Obviously, we're going to disagree on this. I still maintain that giving the career manager a Hobson's choice is neither fair to the CM or the service.

I'll put a lock on my comments from here on.


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## armyvern (10 Dec 2007)

SweetNavyJustice said:
			
		

> I think the discussion is a bit of a dead one.
> 
> As a navy NCM, you pretty much never change your coast unless you ask for the change.  Even then, you're only likely go get that request passed of you're moving East to West.  Not that people don't move West to East, it's just not as common.
> 
> ...



Absolutely agreed. I am the daughter of a sailor.

But heck, when they came knocking asking him to go to NDHQ -- he went. That's where they needed him. Plenty wanting shore postings -- and I know a couple trades with waiting lists for those wanting to sail too.  

My point regarding stability was -- not he himself at home. We ALL go away for courses etc, that is nothing special & is certainly not only relevant to himself.

I'm talking pack up & move the family postings -- 8 in 19 years. Let's face it, although you sail -- you have the added benefit of not having to uproot your family with each posting ... ship to shore to ship to Shearwater to ship to shore (I'm sure you get my point). Why is it considered such a _hardship_ to actually take a posting out of that area and go "inland" once or twice in your career if the CF asks you to?? 

So, your wife owns a Hotel, or a small business etc ... there's always IR if you don't want to move the family. After all, your card comes up, by your own admissions, a whole lot less often in the Navy for uprooting and actually having to pack up and move when you're posted.

PS ... I also know a couple of Sup Tech types who have been trying to get posted to their hometown of Metro-Halifax for quite a few years now ... sadly they can't get there due to some Naval DEU Sup Techs who pull the same crap ... and get away with it. Perhaps it's time for the career manglers to start calling the bluffs of the types who like to play this game, my friends in the Army DEU who are the same trade ... would certainly appreciate it and a posting once in their careers somewhat close to their loved ones for a change.


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## IN HOC SIGNO (10 Dec 2007)

As a guy with a posting message in hand to NDHQ with a COS of 14 Jan 08 I have to agree. I'm on my way IR  cause my wife is well established here. I've only got a few years left so I'll do my time where the system says it needs me. If it doesn't work I'll put in my release...no biggie...there's work for me on civie street. I knew coming into this outfit that my signature on the line meant I was portable. Giving ultimatums to Career managers is tempting fate if you ask me.


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## TCBF (10 Dec 2007)

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> ... Giving ultimatums to Career managers is tempting fate if you ask me.



- Well, yes: Because the CM then has an ace up his sleeve.  If he wants to free up the position the ultimator (?) holds, he need only cut him a posting message, wait for the VR, release him and post the newby into the hole.


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## Sub_Guy (10 Dec 2007)

TCBF said:
			
		

> - Well, yes: Because the CM then has an ace up his sleeve.  If he wants to free up the position the ultimator (?) holds, he need only cut him a posting message, wait for the VR, release him and post the newby into the hole.



That's something I would like to see more of.  The CM posting the ultimator, I have seen it in the navy where too many individuals pull this crap with the CM, and the worst thing is they usually get away with it.

I think CM's need to keep release papers in their briefcases, and when someone comes in pulling the you can't post me or I will release he should slide the paper across the desk. 

There are people who are stuck in places they don't want to be but they can't get posted to where they want because there are people who refuse to move!


Its complete crap.


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## Loachman (10 Dec 2007)

I note that it's non-Navy people criticizing the desire of a sailor to remain in the Halifax area.

This seems to be due to a lack of understanding of the situation. Yes, I'm out of my lane but I'm swerving in order to point out that those doing the criticizing are, too.

As I understand it, we are short of people to crew ships. NavyShooter has stated that he is happy to do so. I'm guessing that many others would prefer to get a break from long periods at sea and stay ashore for a posting or two. Also, as I understand it, with the bulk of a Navy largely split between only two locations being in Halifax, most non-sailing postings (schools, HQ, etcetera) are also there. With few exceptions (recruiting and whatever the obscure and ancient traditional nautical term is for RSS for instance), it would seem that there is little need for hard-sea trades to be posted anywhere else anyway. Purple trades and their career requirements are not a factor in his case, or at least not a significant one.

It would make little sense to me to post him away from Halifax.

If the Army was reduced to two geographical locations, with all of its schools in one of them, would it make any sense to force one particular Infantry NCO to move away from that location, especially when he was happy to spend most of his time in the field? He could move from battalion to school to brigade HQ and back (including movement between all battalions within that brigade) and fill a career without suffering any lack of all-round experience, and neither would the Army suffer from his staying put geographically. There would naturally be enough others looking for "breaks" and willing to do RSS and recruiting jobs to fill the relatively small number of those.

Posting somebody merely for the purpose of changing their location is silly, as is doing so for the express purpose of driving them out when somebody else wants the job that they're being pressed into.


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## Sub_Guy (11 Dec 2007)

There is no problem with a sailor trying to remain in the Halifax/Esquimalt area.  Most would prefer not to move, but there are positions that have to be filled across Canada by sailors (and I am not talking purple trades either), and when you get sailors refusing to move then there's problems.   

CM's do their best to accomodate everyone, but when all avenues are exhausted and you get told that you are going to *insert crappy posting here* then you go, there's no ultimatums.


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## aesop081 (11 Dec 2007)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> There is no problem with a sailor trying to remain in the Halifax/Esquimalt area.  Most would prefer not to move, but there are positions that have to be filled across Canada by sailors (and I am not talking purple trades either), and when you get sailors refusing to move then there's problems.
> 
> CM's do their best to accomodate everyone, but when all avenues are exhausted and you get told that you are going to *insert crappy posting here* then you go, there's no ultimatums.



And there are people who accepted / went reluctantly to shitty postings, have done their time there and are ready to return to the fleet/regiment/squadron.


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## Loachman (11 Dec 2007)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> CM's do their best to accomodate everyone, but when all avenues are exhausted and you get told that you are going to *insert crappy posting here* then you go, there's no ultimatums.



Now, how many "crappy" postings are there for real sailors, and how frequently do career managers exhaust their avenues? How much of a problem is there, really?

NavyShooter said that he's not leaving Halifax. That's his choice, and he was open and honest about it. I'm sure that he's aware of the implications of refusing a posting. I see no reason to dump on him for being forthright.

I had a posting that I really, really wanted (and had for almost a decade) blocked by a previous CO four days after I hit my twenty-year point, after being strung along for a few months, and I was extremely annoyed for quite some time. I stated that I would opt for release if he continued to block it, as I was not going to be dishonest with him or surprise him. I sought a compromise with him over several weeks (my intended new boss was willing to do so) to no avail and ended up leaving the Reg Force a few months later. The decision to carry on as a reservist came just a few days before my release date.

We all join voluntarily, and most of us leave the same way. We either plan for it specifically, or decide upon the circumstances under which it will occur (ie, a posting away from Halifax), or make a quick decision when the final straw overstresses the camel's spine.

NavyShooter's made his decision, and simply told his career manager what it is and nothing more.

Where's the problem with that?


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## armyvern (11 Dec 2007)

Loachman said:
			
		

> Posting somebody merely for the purpose of changing their location is silly, as is doing so for the express purpose of driving them out when somebody else wants the job that they're being pressed into.



No one has suggested that they be posted "merely for the sake of moving them." Rather, it was pointed out that -- given the fact that Hard Sea types find themselves static for the overwhelming majority of their careers (_not they themselves at home, but you know -- paying 17 or 18 years worth of mortgage on the SAME house while still serving, kids not having to make new friends every 2nd year etc_) ... why is it taken as such a _hardship_ to actually take one posting inland to the puzzle palace etc once in their careers -- after all they are only getting asked to do this ... because the career shops need someone at that place -- thus it's not a move "merely for the sake of moving" ... rather their number has come up. If they don't want to move their families -- fine -- go IR -- or get the F out.

I say hardship, because it's not the first time I've heard of someone being posted from the coast to the inland and then pulling the pin ... or bitching about "how dare the CF uproot my family after they've grown used to being in one spot for 17 years...." Personal example. Naval type posted to my location last summer ... after spending 17 years straight (YES -- a PURPLE trade) in Halifax. I call Halifax to talk to him when I get the notification that he's coming IR. He's coming in IR he tells me because he doesn't want to uproot his family. Asks me what it will be like working in a ResF Unit (he was posted to one of the local Res Units). I tell him that there will be some weekends involved and some exercises. "Well, I'm not working weekends -- I have to travel home to see my family on weekends. Someone from the Det will have to cover those." 

"WTF?? Says I. I don't think so." Him: "Well I won't be working weekends or doing exs, I'm Navy - not Army and I have XX number of years in."

"Well" says Vern, "You have a choice then. Bring your family with you, or come IR. If you choose IR and don't show up on the weekend -- I WILL charge your ass with AWOA. Or -- seeing as how you have XX number of years in and mistake the colour purple for the colour black -- you can always just get the F out."

His release was in on Monday. Sad part is ... we all knew it would be long before the telephone call occured.  

I do like the suggestion that the manglers carry about realease paperwork with them. That'll solve many of these situations rather quickly right there on the spot ... and I know a few who'd finally be eating their words after years of getting away with it ... finally.


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## exgunnertdo (11 Dec 2007)

This is not just a Navy issue.  It is relatively common now, with shrinking budgets, to get posted to a batallion or regiment and stay put for a long time (more common with the NCMs, I am told).  Case in point - when 2 PPCLI was moved from Wpg to Shilo, there was significant angst and complaining about QOL issues, civilian jobs, schools, social networks, etc etc etc.  Some of the Sr ranks had literally spent their whole careers there.  The system was more than accomodating with IR, even running buses from Shilo to Wpg on weekends.  But in the end, no one promised any of us we could stay in the same city, in the same house for any length of time.  We are not conscripts, and I agree with CMs carrying release paperwork with them.  I get so tired of "if you do X to me I'll release" then the system bends over backwards to find a way to keep them.

Yeah - and even though I'm RegF now, that "I don't work weekends" thing - ARGHH.  What part of 24/7 was not understood?


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## PMedMoe (11 Dec 2007)

I was just remarking the other day that there are two senior-type people at one of the schools in Borden (one has been CFR'd) and they have been there since 1995 or earlier.  How the heck does one stay in a posting like that for 12 years?


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## armyvern (11 Dec 2007)

_Extraordinary_ talent.   ;D  Perhaps, a course could be run at the School you mentioned which would impart that knowledge/talent to everyone?


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## PMedMoe (11 Dec 2007)

Evil she-mod who owns a whip said:
			
		

> _Extraordinary_ talent.   ;D  Perhaps, a course could be run at the School you mentioned which would impart that knowledge/talent to everyone?



That'll be the day.... :  Think they want to give up their cushy positions?  
BTW, love the name change!!


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## volition (10 Jan 2008)

I'm at CMR-St-jean, and you got a lot of people here that have been in the same province all their lives, it's not an uncommom thing here! A major here switch from being a Vandoo to a Pso just so he could stay in the area!! :blotto:


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## Toddies Girl (10 Jan 2008)

Exgunnertdo is bang on. Its not unusual to see people posted to bases for 8-10 years or more these days. Having just been posted out of Edmonton we know people that have been there for a dogs age posted from unit to unit but never leaving the area. Currently we are on our 3rd posting in 7 years and I really dislike the our current location but you make the best of it. Home is where you hang your beret. One of the reasons my husband joined the military was to see more of our country and that includes the crappy places. He is also French speaking...I remember him taking part of the test over the phone. So far no postings to Quebec but that doesn't mean it won't happen. Could be interesting with me gearing up for basic and not speaking a word of French. It could mean us posted to different bases. But we know what we signed on for and we will go where we are needed French or otherwise. Cheers.


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## PMedMoe (10 Jan 2008)

I have heard of people like that, too.  There was a Tfc Tech (years ago) who spent his entire career in Edmonton, being posted from the Base to the school to the squadrons and back.  In my earlier post about the two people in Borden, they have not been posted at all!  I just find that wrong.  I'm sure there are lots of people who lay down roots (so to speak) and would love to stay in one place, but that's not the way it's supposed to work.  The whole point of being posted to different places, be it geographic or position, was to give personnel a wide variety of experience in their trades.


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## blacktriangle (10 Jan 2008)

I'm going to be starting french lessons soon... 

Please post me anywhere that isn't a ship...  :-[


Going Reg RMS clerk.  ;D


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## IN HOC SIGNO (11 Jan 2008)

popnfresh said:
			
		

> I'm going to be starting french lessons soon...
> 
> Please post me anywhere that isn't a ship...  :-[
> 
> ...



You do realize that as an RMS clerk you are subject to posting to any of the three elements don't you? Just checking cause when you start whining to the career manager about your sudden posting to HMCS Iroquois he'll probably bring it up.


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## blacktriangle (12 Jan 2008)

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> You do realize that as an RMS clerk you are subject to posting to any of the three elements don't you? Just checking cause when you start whining to the career manager about your sudden posting to HMCS Iroquois he'll probably bring it up.



I'll go where I'm sent, I love the CF. I just don't like the idea of running on a flight deck that I saw in a recruiting video. I love running, but that must get dizzy...


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## IN HOC SIGNO (12 Jan 2008)

popnfresh said:
			
		

> I'll go where I'm sent, I love the CF. I just don't like the idea of running on a flight deck that I saw in a recruiting video. I love running, but that must get dizzy...



It's easier to use the treadmill or the stationary bike when you're at sea. It takes a bit of getting used to running in a fair to moderate sea state (not recommended in heavy weather). there are lots of folks who run on the ships....they also live for when the ship is alongside and they can dry land train again. Usually if there is no helicopter embarked (a fairly usual state of affairs nowadays) they set up a gym in the hangar.


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## PumpKickr (4 Mar 2008)

> That's something I would like to see more of.  The CM posting the ultimator, I have seen it in the navy where too many individuals pull this crap with the CM, and the worst thing is they usually get away with it.
> 
> I think CM's need to keep release papers in their briefcases, and when someone comes in pulling the you can't post me or I will release he should slide the paper across the desk.


I thought I'd add something to this discussion that I found interesting.  Because of the new pension plan and retention rates and all that, we have a lot more options then in the past.  Last year a guy I work with was informed that he was being posted into a position over in Afghanistan. He objected and submitted his release and took a job with a local company.  So far, everything is normal. The interesting part is that exactly six months later he got back in, without any adverse effect to his pension (other then loosing the time while he was out), AND he kept his rank, AND he stayed in the geographical area that he was in before he put in his release.

Anyway, I'm not suggesting that I admire the situation or anything, but these days with the military's retention and recruitment issues, plus the fact that everyone and their dog seems to be looking to hire ex-military, I don't think that CM ultimatums are going to have the effect that they want.


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## mysteriousmind (4 Mar 2008)

my little in on the 2 language thing...as I speak both good English and good french...in Valcartier, if you have good language skill...if you work with the major equipment section (LAV that goes to Edmonton to get fix and every thing...then you are highly considered.

I have help allot since my B class started...and I was cued that I might stay here for a while , if I wanted, due to my skills, my good work  and my stunning looks  :warstory:


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