# AF Blue Short Sleeve T-Shirts & Aircrew Long Jons



## SupersonicMax (6 Feb 2009)

Good evening everyone.  Can anyone working in a supply answer this?

I've been trying to get new Air Force blue short sleeve t-shirts.  We need to wear these to fly and mine are getting really thin and some holes are appearing.  I could go out and buy some with my money, but I'm entitled to 5 a year, so I'd like to have them issued to me.  I went to supply every month since last September and I have no luck in getting ANY size.  They always reply "Try again next month, we should be getting some".  Is there a global shortage or is it just where I am??  

The same thing happens with Aircrew long jons (the cotton ones).  Mine are starting to rip appart in the groin area and I can't get new ones.  This is my second layer when I go flying (we are required to wear 2 layers) and I'd hate to be burnt in the groin area because supply can't get any cotton long jons...  

Oh and lately, they have a really big shortage of flying gloves, to the point we are only allowed to have 1 pair at the time (our scale of entitlement is 2).  Although not the end of the world, it's really nice to have a second pair.  I usually leave one in my flying gear locker (and fly with it), and wear the other one outside.

Is that pretty much the case on every AF base or is it just a local issue??

Thanks,

Max


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## BinRat55 (6 Feb 2009)

Max,

Ok, let me try to explain it one item at a time...

The blue t-shirts - these are contracted through Logistick. They don't have any - expected delivery of around April-ish. Our Clot has gone downtown and purchased a hockey sock load to get us over the hump, but we are not giving the entitled amount - I decided on 3 per until we received our shipment from the contractor. So the answer is no, it's not where you are it's a shortage.

Air crew long underwear - not to be confused with ground crew long underwear (which there are lots of in the system) There is also a shortage. More than likely there will be no procurement on this as it is being replaced by the Millennium Standard in the near future. My suggestion is if the ground crew underwear will suffice, get those instead.

Flight gloves - a very touchy subject. I wouldn't complain about only having one pair - there are many flight crew who do not even have one pair. I can only tell you this - if you fly a Hornet, you will have at least one pair by end Feb. If not, you are looking at April - June timeframe with a possible (and I stress possible) issue of the Army's CVC gloves - these have been deemed airworthy (in most cases) and my team has been instructed to issue on a case-by-case basis only. This is a very scrutinized workaround at best - in other words if you came to me you would not get the CVC's because you already have one pair of Flyers gloves...

I hope this didn't create any more confusion for you!!


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## Eye In The Sky (6 Feb 2009)

I can't speak for anywheres else, but here in YAW there was a shortage of the issued blue t-shirts up until November, and to my knowledge, it was only in size L and XL.  I went back after XMas Lve, and got my 5 t shirts, underwear and CSS (socks) all at once.  So did a few other people in my shop.

I can't speak on the long johns and flying gloves.


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## Eye In The Sky (6 Feb 2009)

BinRat55,

Not to direct this at you, but...thats a pretty sad state of affairs isn't it?  We can't keep a stock of underwear and gloves to a level where the folks that need them, have them.  Somewhere, someone should be explaining these procurement issues to someone who can sort it out (not just the blue t-shirt stuff, but all encompassing.  If the folks who need kit, can't get that kit, something is wrong and should be fixed.)

*shakes head*


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## Fishbone Jones (6 Feb 2009)

Perhaps people could cut down on the shortage if they used the flying gloves for........flying.......and not outside everyday wear  or maybe it's the LCF that pilots seem to aspire to 8)


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## SupersonicMax (6 Feb 2009)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Perhaps people could cut down on the shortage if they used the flying gloves for........flying.......and not outside everyday wear  or maybe it's the LCF that pilots seem to aspire to 8)



That's what we're supposed to wear outside the squadron, AFAIK.  

I don't mind a month or two being told that it's not available at the moment but it has been a long time now (6 months), and I'm in a desperate need of long underwears (if the ground crew one are 100% cotton, I'd take them, otherwise, synthetic material isn't the best against fire and that's exactly the point of wearing long underwears.  I'd rather wear nothing than wearing synthetic) and t-shirts.

As far as the CVC gloves, I was told last year that they are a no-go for us.


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## aesop081 (6 Feb 2009)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> My suggestion is if the ground crew underwear will suffice, get those instead.



Your suggestion would be wrong. He cannot fly with those.


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## BinRat55 (6 Feb 2009)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Your suggestion would be wrong. He cannot fly with those.



I think I said "My suggestion is if the ground crew underwear _will suffice_..." meaning I didn't know if the static discharge factor applied here or not - you guys know better... Being told i'm "wrong" is a little harsh isn't it? I'm only trying to help...

As far as the CVC gloves are concerned, airworthiness was granted yesterday (with the exception of the Hornet).


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## aesop081 (6 Feb 2009)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> meaning I didn't know if the static discharge factor applied here or not



Its not a question of static in so much as a question of burning and melting to your skin.



> (with the exception of the Hornet).



The i guess max is SOL until they get more flying gloves.


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## SupersonicMax (6 Feb 2009)

BinRat, you're being very helpful and provided me with information that I couldn't get before.  I like being informed on these matters and hate being told "well, that's what it is, you'll have to wait".

I would assume the exception also applies to the Hawk.  Same escape systems (only difference is how we get rid of the canopy before the ejection), same type of airplane, same type of flying.  I will try to talk to my CoC and have them try to do something about it.  6 months and no solution is a little excessive IMHO.

On an other subject, any idea about a long sleeve t-shirt with no turtle neck?  Again, we have to wear 2 layers, and during the summer it means wearing the Summer Jacket (VERY VERY hot) or wearing a long sleeve t-shirt. The turtle neck sucks for summer flying (or winter flying for that matter) and it is way too thick to fly with this in the summer.   So far, I've bought my own, but since the Apr 08 Hawk crash, I think there was some talk about having them in the CF supply system.    If you have any idea on wheter or not it will happen, that would be very appreciated!

Thanks again,

Max


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## Zoomie (6 Feb 2009)

No real shortages noted here at 17 Wing.

IMO - being short flying gloves is an ALSE violation and your ALSE rep needs to be involved with further action up the chain.  It is all fine for Supply to recognize that they are short necessary ALSE gear - IMO it needs to go further up the chain and have people with Gold Leafs involved.

FWIW, I don't wear my gloves unless I am starting the plane, in the takeoff phase or landing.  I have leather gloves or the supplied gauntlets for wearing outside.


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## BinRat55 (6 Feb 2009)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> BinRat, you're being very helpful and provided me with information that I couldn't get before.  I like being informed on these matters and hate being told "well, that's what it is, you'll have to wait".
> 
> I would assume the exception also applies to the Hawk.  Same escape systems (only difference is how we get rid of the canopy before the ejection), same type of airplane, same type of flying.  I will try to talk to my CoC and have them try to do something about it.  6 months and no solution is a little excessive IMHO.
> 
> ...



The AF will be getting the equivalent to the Army's green temperate underwear only in blue (see the CEMS site http://www.forces.gc.ca/admmat-smamat/cems-nmhe/lightweightthermalunderwearlwtu-sousvetementthermiquelegersvtl-ENG.asp ) but I don't know when.

WRT the gloves, there are still some in the system but chances are it's your size that's low. If the Hawk has the same ejection system as the Hornet then it will fall in the same boat as this is the reason the airworthiness approval was denied for the Hornet.

ALSE is in the loop on this one I can assure you and we (the Supply people) are attempting to mitigate any concerns ALSE and 1 CAD may have.


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## BinRat55 (6 Feb 2009)

And *tongue in cheek* I don't think i've ever seen a "long sleeved t-shirt"!!


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## Eye In The Sky (6 Feb 2009)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> And *tongue in cheek* I don't think i've ever seen a "long sleeved t-shirt"!!



Then you've never shopped at MEC then  ;D (this is one of my fav's for hiking and stuff)

* editted (twice!) for Prince Country English  >


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## MJP (6 Feb 2009)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> No real shortages noted here at 17 Wing.



Only because supply is only really "open" one half day a week.....with a lineup out the door.


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## mover1 (6 Feb 2009)

We can get the gloves here in YTR but the other items. Its sketchy at best.

Just a quick question. Does anyone else find that the New Winter Boot squeaks like a mofo when you wear them.


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## s23256 (6 Feb 2009)

Somewhat off topic but I think that has already been answered.  If the Army underwear does not provide sufficient flash protection to be issued to aircrew why have I never heard of any restriction for ground vehicle crew or pax?  Has this been an oversight or have I just been missing out.  This seems particularly odd given the specific restrictions on Underarmour etc for the exact same reason.

Anyone heard anything about this issue?


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## Eye In The Sky (6 Feb 2009)

mover1 said:
			
		

> Just a quick question. Does anyone else find that the New Winter Boot squeaks like a mofo when you wear them.



Try this thread.


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## BinRat55 (6 Feb 2009)

Spinaker said:
			
		

> Somewhat off topic but I think that has already been answered.  If the Army underwear does not provide sufficient flash protection to be issued to aircrew why have I never heard of any restriction for ground vehicle crew or pax?  Has this been an oversight or have I just been missing out.  This seems particularly odd given the specific restrictions on Underarmour etc for the exact same reason.
> 
> Anyone heard anything about this issue?



I'm a little out of my lane here (only a little - I do have the fuel farm spvr course) but if i'm not mistaken the flash point of AvPol (Jet A1, JP8 & F35) is substantially lower than diesel or gas... never seen a LAV running on turbo.


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## mover1 (6 Feb 2009)

Thanks!


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## s23256 (6 Feb 2009)

Little wikipedia fact finding 

flash points
Diesel >62°C (143°F) 
Jet fuel >38°C (100°F) 

Not really the issue though as anything with enough energy to go through the hull will likely create enough heat to touch off diesel as well as all of the other accumulated fuel, pyro, ammo, etc jammed in the vehicle.  So the question still stands.


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## Zoomie (6 Feb 2009)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> The AF will be getting the equivalent to the Army's green temperate underwear only in blue  but I don't know when.



Wearing the long underwear right now as I type.  The turtlenecks are a little too extreme - holding out for mock neck long-sleeve shirts.


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## BinRat55 (6 Feb 2009)

Spinaker said:
			
		

> Somewhat off topic but I think that has already been answered.  If the Army underwear does not provide sufficient flash protection to be issued to aircrew why have I never heard of any restriction for ground vehicle crew or pax?  Has this been an oversight or have I just been missing out.  This seems particularly odd given the specific restrictions on Underarmour etc for the exact same reason.
> 
> Anyone heard anything about this issue?



Ok then the question is being misunderstood - it's not flash protection that the underwear is not providing, it's static dissipative properties (and discharge) as well as a slight degree of fire retardant properties. I guess we don't worry about that annoying little "snap" of static electricity while we are near diesel... perhaps you could elaborate a little more to the gist of your inquiry? See below...

 "It was determined to use a 75/25 cotton and polyester blend to address the requirement for anti-static properties in the garment. In addition to its being anti-static, the garment does provide some FR protection when worn as an undergarment as it will not melt as a 100% polyester T-shirt would. This is not to say that it can be worn during flying ops as the aircrew are still required to wear long underwear as their base layer."


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## s23256 (6 Feb 2009)

The question is: Has anyone received any guidance, or heard anything for that matter, on the wearing of army issue long underwear for ground vehicle crews and pax (specifically on ops)?  

This being prompted by the concern expressed by Max and CDN Aviator that these garments would not be suitable for aircrew due to the possibility of melting in a fire.  The issue of static dissipative properties may be of relevance in some situations but I'm no SME so i will not comment on it.  It struck me as interesting that the air force seems reluctant, with valid reasons, to wear these garments in an environment with the risk of flash fires while I have not heard anything along the same lines from the army where similar conditions are encountered (although underarmour and other non issue garments have been addressed).  I'm not a materials researcher, perhaps there is a perfectly valid reason, I ask only out of curiosity and professional interest.


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## SupersonicMax (6 Feb 2009)

Allright, I just went to supply today and they got a huge load of T-Shirts yesterday.  Still no luck with Long Jons.

They have Helo-Type long Jons, but no "Fighter"-Type Long Jons (no idea what the difference is, aside from the color).  I had to beg to get the helo type (which is what I was issued before anyways).

Still low on gloves and I couldn't get a pair that fit me...  Oh well, I don't think we'll be flying for a while anyways 

Max


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## aesop081 (6 Feb 2009)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> This is not to say that it can be worn during flying ops as the aircrew are still required to wear long underwear as their base layer."



It cant. We just went through this on my Wing. 100% cotton is whats required, not a blend.


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## mover1 (6 Feb 2009)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Still low on gloves and I couldn't get a pair that fit me...  Oh well, I don't think we'll be flying for a while anyways
> 
> Max



Did you ever get the. "we don't have your size but we can give you a smaller size in the interm" speil.
I love that one. 

We have been told here the Long Johns will be available around May/June.

Nothing we can do except wait I guess.


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## Occam (22 Sep 2009)

Time for a necropost...

Flash back to the initial issue of CADPAT for AF types.  I was issued five Fruit of the Loom AF Blue t-shirts, size XL, which served me well over a year until I couldn't take the "we still don't have any" response at clothing stores.  I then got a relative to buy a bunch of the same size, same brand t-shirts in the US while they were on a shopping trip.

Jump ahead to April of this year.  After checking with clothing stores at increasingly frequent intervals for over three months, I gave in to their suggestion that I take 5 of their *XXL* t-shirts and give them a hot wash and dry, and come back when they get stock in size XL.  I take them home, unwrap them, note that they're now "Logistik Unicorp" brand, and fire them into a hot wash and dry.  I've never worn a dress before, but I have to imagine it's a lot like wearing one of these t-shirts.  It's half way down my thighs, and the sleeves hang out from underneath the rolled-up sleeves of a combat shirt.  I suffer with it, rolling up the sleeves of the t-shirt as necessary so as not to draw fire from above.

I checked back with clothing stores on a whim a few weeks ago, and they tell me that they have size XL in stock.  I hop on the next shuttle over to clothing stores, explain that I'm there to get 5 XL t-shirts, and explain the whole sordid story again when they see that I've already gotten my five for the year.  I get my new XL t-shirts (Logistik Unicorp brand again), and take them home for a wash/dry according to the instructions.

I put one of them on yesterday morning.  It fits like a second skin.  Literally.  It's strangling me by the neck, and the sleeves are so short (well, one of them anyways) that it feels like there's a knife in my armpit.  They got the length right, though.

So, given that there's enough space between a size XL and a size XXL to fit another human in there with me, I'd like to know how to make a complaint about the shirts - because every one of them is like that, right down to the one arm being shorter than the other.  No, it's not my arms.

Do we still use UCRs?  Make a complaint to Logistik Unicorp?  Take them back to supply?  Be thankful that I even got AF blue t-shirts issued to me at all?   ;D


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