# Some sidetrack....



## tamouh (24 Jun 2006)

Interesting views in here. "Islamic Insurgency" I believe is a huge mislabel of the current war. In the eyes of the Muslims world wide, they view America and its allies as crusaders simply because they believe the US is against Muslims having any sort of power period.

There are few things need clarification:

What are you defining an "Islamic Insurgency" here ?  Some stated that Saudi, Syria and Iran are the biggest threats to western society. WRONG! Syria and Saudi are considered relatively one of the most important allies to the US. The Arabs and Muslims in general are upset of really one thing alone, Israel. 

You take Israel out of the equation, the Arabs will turn their hate and attention against their own leaders who have opressed them for many decades now. This is also the same reason why Arab leaders stand firm against Israel existance, because they know it is the only reason they are still in power.

Democracy really will not exist in the Middle East in its current western form because simply any democracy will produce a majority Islamic government (note: I'm not talking Islamic as in Iran, but nevertheless government base its rule on the principles of Islam). This what happened in Algeria mid-90s , Palestine recently, Turkey early 21st century and the local Saudi county elections.

The west should be focused on fighting Terrorism, not Islamism.


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## Nemo888 (24 Jun 2006)

a_majoor said:
			
		

> The GWOT is, like Pappy said, an "outsourcing" of war. Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia are currently united in a common front against the United States, since the US not only stands against their goals (Ba'athist dictatorship; Islamic Theocracy; Authoratarian monarchy when reduced to the simplest terms), but is actively creating conditions through cultural, economic and now military means to end their ambitions.



  Didn't the US support the Ba'athist's, Kermit Roosevelt installed the Saudi Royals, and the Islamic Insurgency which began in Iran was a reaction to the Shah who was put in by the CIA after the ousting of Mossadegh? The lack of democracy and corrupt Royals is the source of problems in Saudi. The only political outlet in Saudi is the mosque as all other political outlets end in execution. Iran was a democracy before we installed the Shah. It is a historical fact that the CIA thought he was going to side with Russia, so we got rid of him. Syria is just so corrupt I think they are a valid target.

  I don't want to make trouble but this is my understanding of recent Middle Eastern history. I also think we had absolutely no choice. It was either us or the Russians. With that much cash the Soviets may have crushed us. But neglecting history will really bite us in the ass. Now I know you want to go for the throat, but could someone explain why I am nuts in a nice way?


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## tamouh (24 Jun 2006)

> Nemo888:
> The only political outlet in Saudi is the mosque as all other political outlets end in execution. Iran was a democracy before we installed the Shah. It is a historical fact that the CIA thought he was going to side with Russia, so we got rid of him. Syria is just so corrupt I think they are a valid target



Right On!


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## xenobard (25 Jun 2006)

Hamas / Palestinian incursion into Israel:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/5114072.stm?ls



> Gun battle near Gaza border post
> 
> It is the largest attack since Israeli troops left Gaza
> Palestinian gunmen have attacked an Israeli army post near the Gaza Strip reportedly killing two Israelis before soldiers shot dead three militants.
> ...



The Palestinian soldiers - including members of Hamas - tunneled under the border and attacked an Israeli border-post, killing maybe 4 Israeli soldiers and probably destroying a tank!

All this after Israel has withdrawn from Gaza, and (from my point of view) tried to come to some sort of compromise with the Palestinians.  I fear that the Israelis have lost patience, and that their next counter-attack will be exceedingly severe, perhaps even a complete anhilation of Hamas' leadership and political and military infrastructure, followed by an all-out invasion and full-fledged military occupation of Gaza.  This time, however, it will be occupied soley by the Israeli military, with no Israeli settlers.  

If Hamas keeps up such attacks, I think this is inevitable.


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## tamouh (25 Jun 2006)

> All this after Israel has withdrawn from Gaza, and (from my point of view) tried to come to some sort of compromise with the Palestinians.  I fear that the Israelis have lost patience, and that their next counter-attack will be exceedingly severe, perhaps even a complete anhilation of Hamas' leadership and political and military infrastructure, followed by an all-out invasion and full-fledged military occupation of Gaza.  This time, however, it will be occupied soley by the Israeli military, with no Israeli settlers.



Israel has been pounding Hamas, Palestinians and the whole Gaza territory constantly everyday for the past 4 years, Hamas about a year ago declared single sided truce which they went back on about a few week ago after the civilian death on Gaza beach. On the other hand, the Jihad group continued its suicide bombings inside Israel, but notice how Hamas pretty much suspended all its military operations until the past few weeks.

Israel has vowed in every single news outlet to target every Hamas militant, leadership and even there were rumors of wanting to target the current Hamas PM. I don't believe Israel offered the Palestinians anything really. They gave them a bunch of land that they couldn't control firmly in the first place and was drawing critisism against the Israeli government. Israel has no interest in Gaza, this is why they were building the wall dividing Gaza outside of Israel from the beginning.

What interested me in this news the amount of work the Palestinian militants had to go through just to attack a single post!! This is I believe either the 2nd or the 3rd time they've used the tunnel tactic.

I doubt Israel will want to get back into Gaza, they might destroy couple of homes, fire couple of missiles , do a maneuver with tanks for couple of days but they have no reason to stay. Hamas also has no interest in going with war again against Gaza, but my believe that Hamas is trying to send a message to Israel to stop their assassination campaign of militants or there will be a response. Israel obviously doesn't accept to be threaten by anyone and especially Hamas, so they'll continue to attack, and the Palestinians will counter attack until who knows when!

It just seems in that part of the world nobody listens nor interested in a real compromise. They go about solving things the middle eastern way!!


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## paracowboy (25 Jun 2006)

tamouh said:
			
		

> It just seems in that part of the world nobody listens nor interested in a real compromise.


Israel has offered compromise for decades. They have bent over backwards to do so. The Palestinians are content with being tools of Individuals who are seeking power (what was his name again? The Nobel Prize winner? Oh yeah! Arafat), or greedy neighbouring governments (Jordan, Egypt, Syria). It allows them to play the role of martyr, all the easier then, to teach your children murder and suicide. More convenient when you steal UN money to fund your own acts of terror, or use Red Cross vehicles to ferry arms and assassins.


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## 1feral1 (25 Jun 2006)

tamouh said:
			
		

> Israel has been pounding Hamas, Palestinians and the whole Gaza territory constantly everyday for the past 4 years



I have been simmering for some time with this character, and I am biting, just a bit anyways.....

Firstly I am not a big fan of Israel either, both sides are as bad as one another in many ways with this tit for tat escalation, however, Israelis are NOT strapping bombs to themselves and targeting cafes and shopping centres are they, and Israelis are not harbouring terrorists amoung innocent people either are they. Israel is reacting to keeping its borders secure, relying on intelligence, and pre-empting a strike to KILL terrorists who are about to kill innocent people, not soldiers (or rarely soldiers anyways).

At the end of the day, 1000 years from now, like a 1000 years ago, violence will remain constant in the middle east, that looks like how its gonna be, if they can't fight with someone else, they'll fight with each other, or export their violence and hatred to our neck of the woods acting out on some limp dicked reason to kill innocents, thats happening now, but again thats not Israelis doing that is it.

Frankly, I am sick of it all, and my GAF factor is just hovering at zero now, maybe lower. Its obvious by your posts to see the side you are on, and if you feel so negative about Israel and the whole western view of the MEAO, instead of flapping you gums, why don't you commit yourself to some real action and go over and help 'em out instead of whinging on here. There is plenty of AKMs and sucicide belts to go around. I am sure plenty on here could muster up enough money to buy you a one way ticket. I'll donate!!!

You portray yourself to be some type of a supporter of these islamic murdering cowards, trying to justify their murderous actions, yet you will not devuldge your experiences (you have been asked), and are rather secretive/mysterous in many ways. So I am tending to believe you are some kind of a Walter Mitty or poser, just on here to stir the pot. If you are a one of these supporters (yes if), why have you chosen to live in a western country anyways? With your views, I would be much happier if you left, not only this website, but the country.

Just remember, you are taking to another immigrant (although just another bacon loving whisky swilling womanising infidel) here, someone who has given so much to get here, yet gained so much by leaving my homeland, so don't try hood winking the old dog.

Shyte or get off the pot, MATE!

Wes


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## tamouh (25 Jun 2006)

> Israel has offered compromise for decades. They have bent over backwards to do so. The Palestinians are content with being tools of Individuals who are seeking power (what was his name again? The Nobel Prize winner? Oh yeah! Arafat), or greedy neighbouring governments (Jordan, Egypt, Syria).



I don't think Israel bent anything backward, they're still in violation of all UN resolutions out there.

Agree greedy neighbours and self interests from Arab, European and the US is fueling the rage over there. Also lets not forget the Jordanians and Syrians have committed massacres against the Palestinians. Let me also add what happened in Libya when Al-Qathafi exiled (kicked out a better term) most Palestinians from Libya after the peace deal in end of 90s.



> It allows them to play the role of martyr, all the easier then, to teach your children murder and suicide. More convenient when you steal UN money to fund your own acts of terror, or use Red Cross vehicles to ferry arms and assassins.



These are Israeli army claims regarding red cross vehicles (or red crescent), not verifiable by any 3rd party reliable source and therefore 
i'll not dispute them or agree on them.


-- Note: I'm no fan of that conflict either and I have no interest in going into a debate over it. It will be just a waste of time as both sides and their supporters have something to bring to the table. I feel bad for the average poor people Arabs and Israelis who actually want and try to make peace with each others, but unfortunately their voices goes unheard among the crowds calling for revenge and blood.




> .......why don't you commit yourself to some real action and go over and help 'em out instead of whinging on here.........You portray yourself to be some type of a supporter of these islamic murdering cowards, trying to justify their murderous actions, yet you will not devuldge your experiences (you have been asked), and are rather secretive/mysterous in many ways. So I am tending to believe you are some kind of a Walter Mitty or poser, just on here to stir the pot. If you are a one of these supporters (yes if), why have you chosen to live in a western country anyways? With your views, I would be much happier if you left, not only this website, but the country.



Just pathetic. The reason why I come to this forum because i gain no knowledge nor experience from liberal forums. They're pretty much in line with what I say and possibly even much more towards the left. Thanks for your kind comments, but no thanks for your offer.


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## 1feral1 (25 Jun 2006)

tamouh said:
			
		

> Just pathetic. The reason why I come to this forum because i gain no knowledge nor experience from liberal forums. They're pretty much in line with what I say and possibly even much more towards the left. Thanks for your kind comments, but no thanks for your offer.



You provided the answer almost to the word I thought you would.

I rest my case, Poser.


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## Michael OLeary (25 Jun 2006)

tamouh,

Perhaps you can answer this for me: with the increasingly prominent claims of "peaceful Islam" trying to distance itself from terrorist acts, why haven't Islamic communities worldwide been more prominent in identifying those within their communities who might be preparing to commit such acts?  Wouldn't such peace supporting initiatives actually support the image of "peaceful Islam" which some seem so determined to push to the fore?


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## tomahawk6 (25 Jun 2006)

The Israelis are considered the problem from the palestinian point of view and the anti-semetics of Europe. However, Israel has a right to exist. They have a right to defend themselves from attack. The Israelis have fought three wars against its neighbors who were trying to occupy Israel. Most recently they have fought a guerrilla or asymetric war against Palestinian terror groups. After years of trying to acheive a peace deal Israel has decided to build a frontier barrier and withdraw behind it. The terror groups continue to attack Israel sparking a tit for tat response. The Israelis on top of all this are threatened by Iran who has stated its desire to see Israel wiped off the map and are creating nuclear weapons capable of just that.One would think the democracies of the world would stand with Israel in the face of militant islam,but that is not the case.


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## George Wallace (25 Jun 2006)

tamouh said:
			
		

> Israel has been pounding Hamas, Palestinians and the whole Gaza territory constantly everyday for the past 4 years, Hamas about a year ago declared single sided truce which they went back on about a few week ago after the civilian death on Gaza beach. On the other hand, the Jihad group continued its suicide bombings inside Israel, but notice how Hamas pretty much suspended all its military operations until the past few weeks.



You seriously don't in all honesty believe this statement?  Hamas has never been able to declare a "Truce".  They have an election and win.  The politicians declare a "Truce" and the militants of the party immediately break it.  If you don't recognize the facts as placed on the News, you are wasting our time.  Take your little conspiracy theory and go to a "Conspiracy Theory" related site.  Stop with the BS here.


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## 1feral1 (25 Jun 2006)

Hey George, WRT tamouh, just remember the word poser, which can be substituted with dog turd as required. He even has the mods patience running thin.

His credibility is close to zero. His hidden agenda is about to 'suicide bomb' in his own face, he'll give himself enough rope sooner or later.

We must be patient.

Cold ones,

Wes


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## couchcommander (25 Jun 2006)

tamouh said:
			
		

> I don't think Israel bent anything backward, they're still in violation of all UN resolutions out there.



.... and the Arab nations that viciously attacked them in '48 and '49 in violation of a "UN Resolution" for the land in '47?

Listen, quite frankly I am tired of supporters of either side trying to claim "legitimacy" to the land. Sorry Arabs, the Jews were there a few thousand years before you were. Sorry Jews, you were forced out in 135 AD. The Arabs have since made it their home. 

In the end Israel is there. Period. It's not going anywhere. The Arab states have tried to remove it, they have failed. They need to stop whining about it and pretending to be the victims of the entire debacle. 

Israel isn't a victim either. That state was founded on the homes of countless families - wouldn't you be a little peeved? 

What's the reality of it? No one is going anywhere. Start dealing with it - or keep killing each other. It's up to them, really. 

My .02 anywho.


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## paracowboy (25 Jun 2006)

tamouh said:
			
		

> I don't think Israel bent anything backward, they're still in violation of all UN resolutions out there.


 UN resolutions put in place by nations who are anti-semitic by nature, or were attampting to curry favour with Arab nations to keep oil prices down, were attempting to make sales to Arab countires, or were simply pawns of the Soviet Union and were being used in the Soviet-US 3rd World War. The League Of Nations is a pathetic joke and has no authority, or legitimacy. It is comprised of autocracies, and staffed by criminals. It's "armies" are slavers, rapists, and thieves. Don't come here, HERE, where many members have served under the UN flag of piracy and incompetence, and try to wave that banner.



> These are Israeli army claims regarding red cross vehicles (or red crescent), not verifiable by any 3rd party reliable source and therefore i'll not dispute them or agree on them.


I don't care what you'll dispute. I have stated a fact verified by soldiers I trust.


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## Nemo888 (25 Jun 2006)

I think the big thing driving the Palestinian/Israeli conflict towards settlement is demographics. Same as Northern Ireland. The Palestinian population is growing at a much faster rate than the Jewish one and will eventually outnumber them. So Palestinians having their own land became inevitable. They can't keep that many people in their borders for an unlimited amount of time without giving them the rights of citizens. Israelis are very pragmatic, but to be honest they don't "bend over backwards" for anyone.


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## tomahawk6 (25 Jun 2006)

The real problem is that the PA is a terrorist organization mascarading as a legitimate government.
As such they dont have an economic policy.They dont have a trade policy except in weapons. Until they transition from trying to destroy Israel to trying to improve the lives of their people through economic development. Right now the west bank and Gaza are an economic basket case with no economic future for anyone. As a state the west bank is not economically viable.


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## Nemo888 (25 Jun 2006)

So I guess they need lawyers, tax collectors and bureaucrats. Generally all the things we hate,....

Can we send them ours?


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## tomahawk6 (25 Jun 2006)

Actually they have all of the above.


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## Nemo888 (25 Jun 2006)

Shhhhhhhh, I already told them they were going  ;D


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## Scoobie Newbie (25 Jun 2006)

Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.

Still want to quit?


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## tomahawk6 (25 Jun 2006)

Nope I want to send him on all expense paid trip to paradise.


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## tamouh (25 Jun 2006)

couchcommander: You're right on the point. You can even see some arab nations like Jordan, Egypt Qatar, Morocco, Muritania beginning to initiate diplomatic contact. it is also rumored in the mid east many of the Arab countries have unofficial contacts with Israel. The problem though is not land as much as status of the people (aka the Palestinian refugees). This was the BIGGEST obsticle since the Oslo accord. Many people were driven from their homes because of war, when Israel gains these lands, it converted it to settlements, so Palestinians had no home to go to ! The Arab states wouldn't accept them, Israel doesn't accept them, the PA doesn't want to deal with them.

All the sudden it seem the Palestinians are the Jews but in a futurestic environment. 

This is why I don't like to argue about this issue, it has been argued before, alot of BS and distorted facts on both sides and quite frankly I don't think there is hope for peaceful end. You're now talking about 2-3 generations of Palestinian refugees living with no home or identity. Reminds me with the Kurds !

paracowboy: ya, and everyone against Israel is anti-semite. It is also funny how that phrase is thrown in always with no knowledge of its meaning. Arabs are also semite.


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## Fishbone Jones (25 Jun 2006)

tamouh,

You have yet to answert Michael O'Leary's question:



> Perhaps you can answer this for me: with the increasingly prominent claims of "peaceful Islam" trying to distance itself from terrorist acts, why haven't Islamic communities worldwide been more prominent in identifying those within their communities who might be preparing to commit such acts?  Wouldn't such peace supporting initiatives actually support the image of "peaceful Islam" which some seem so determined to push to the fore?


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## tamouh (25 Jun 2006)

I don't believe in something called "peaceful islam" , "peaceful christianity" or "peaceful judasim" or even "peaceful world". Everyone interprets things the way they like them to be and act based on what they think is right or wrong. This is why there is left and right !


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## Fishbone Jones (26 Jun 2006)

Nice dance. :

If anyone has anything insightful, PM a Mod.


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## Michael OLeary (26 Jun 2006)

Just wanted to add this food for thought:

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20040803-100123-9674r.htm



> Al Azhar's grand sheik, one of Islam's most influential figures, is unequivocal: His faith stands for peace and justice.



But, I guess that's just his personal choice.


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## paracowboy (26 Jun 2006)

tamouh said:
			
		

> paracowboy: ya, and everyone against Israel is anti-semite. It is also funny how that phrase is thrown in always with no knowledge of its meaning. Arabs are also semite.


yeah, I know. We've had interesting discussions on Semitism, Falashim, Ashknenzai, etc. Not to mention Persians vs Arabs vs Turks, etc. Believe or not, quiet a few people on this site know quite a bit about the Middle East/North Africa and it's history. 

(Yes, I know it's locked, but the point should be raised that we're not arguing from complete ignorance)


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