# The Anti-Western Narrative



## Edward Campbell (22 Nov 2014)

I don't know how many people remember 1421: The Year China Discovered The World. It is a good, albeit mostly implausible, read ... Zheng He was a real Chinese admiral and he did lead a great fleet into, at least, the Indian Ocean. How much farther he _*might*_ have gone and what else he _*might*_ have done is a matter of conjecture. But the Chinese government was, quietly, nearly invisibly, behind (supportive) of Gavin Menzie's tale. An _Anti-Western Narrative_ suits China.

Now we see something similar coming out of Turkey, promoted by none other than Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan who claims that Muslims (Turks?) arrived in the Caribbean in the 12th century. This is also part of an _Anti-Western Narrative_ that aims to give non-Western peoples some pride in mythical _"accomplishments"_ that, if they were true, would weaken the existing _Western Narrative_. Sometimes the notions behind the _Anti-Western Narrative_ are promoted by guilt ridden Westerners ~ consider the "Black Cleopatra" idea, for example.


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## a_majoor (22 Nov 2014)

In addition to explicitly "anti-western" narratives designed to undermin us and our self confidence (especially the crowd steeped in "moral relativism"), we should also look at "Their" narratives as well.

For Russia, I have been led to one Vladimir Solovyov, who's thoughts are sometimes reflected in speeches and pronouncements of Vladimir Putin. Trying to understand Solovyov is a bit mind bending, but may provide some insights into what they are thinking and why they see the world the way they do.


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## Brad Sallows (23 Nov 2014)

They are welcome to their sense of accomplishment, imaginary or otherwise.  I wonder if they also feel a sense of personal accomplishment when one of their nationals does well in an Olympic event.

The "western narrative" is deep, broad, and sustained, not a one-shot wonder.


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## jollyjacktar (23 Nov 2014)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Now we see something similar coming out of Turkey, promoted by none other than Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan who claims that Muslims (Turks?) arrived in the Caribbean in the 12th century.



Of course they did.  How else can you explain the "Turks and Caicos".


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## daftandbarmy (24 Nov 2014)

I know he's been discredited by some,  but Victor Davis Hansen seems to think that the West has nothing to worry about:

Hanson is perhaps best known for his 2001 book, Carnage and Culture, published in some nations (e.g. Australia) as Why the West Has Won, in which he argued that the military dominance of Western Civilization, beginning with the ancient Greeks, is the result of certain fundamental aspects of Western culture, such as consensual government and individualism. Hanson rejects racial explanations for this military preeminence, and disagrees as well with environmental or geographical explanations such as put forth by Jared Diamond in Guns, Germs and Steel.[7]

According to Hanson, Western values such as political freedom, capitalism, individualism, democracy, scientific inquiry, rationalism, and open debate form an especially lethal combination when applied to warfare. Non-Western societies can win the occasional victory when warring against a society with these Western values, writes Hanson, but the "Western way of war" will prevail in the long run. Hanson emphasizes that Western warfare is not necessarily more (or less) moral than war as practiced by other cultures; his argument is simply that the "Western way of war" is unequalled in its devastation and decisiveness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Davis_Hanson


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## Colin Parkinson (24 Nov 2014)

Well as a counter narrative we can say that their ancestors were raped by Greeks (forgot the Romans) and Vikings, and they are the mongrel result :stirpot:


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## a_majoor (24 Nov 2014)

WRT VDH, I believe he is on the right track, and if you look carefully at the various anti western "counter narratives" being plied by our enemies and bandied about by our own academia, the media and even parts of the political establishment, you see they are squarely aimed at the very things Hanson points out as the sources of our strength:



> political freedom, capitalism, individualism, democracy, scientific inquiry, rationalism, and open debate



Taken as a whole, they are all parts of the system of beliefs we call "Classical Liberalism" (Conservatism nowadays): Individual liberty, unfettered use of personal property and the Rule of Law. 

VDH is also correct in that is the unique source of our military strength. As a classical scholar, he has shown many examples of how the Greeks were better able to harness their resources, and the freer the Classical _polis_ in question, the better they were at it. The Boeotians were a fairly representative democracy, and were able to rapidly evolve tactics and strategies that laid Sparta low when the two finally came to blows after the Peloponnesian War. Even during the Peloponnesian War, after Athens had lost the flower of there army and fleet in Sicily it still took a further decade for Sparta and her Allies, backed by Persian money, to take the Athenians down and win the war.

Farther forward in time, the United Provinces and Elizabethan England, despite being smaller, poorer and having less population than the Spanish Empire, were still able to implement the flexible "Maritime System" and defeat the Spanish, while the _Serenìsima Repùblica Vèneta_, a City State, was able to remain competitive with the Ottoman Empire for almost 200 years. Even today, the relatively more free "Tiger" economies of Asia are competitive with China, and India's rapid growth coincides with the end of the "Permit Raj" and relatively freer political life there.

So *we* need to know our own "narrative", and apply it everywhere and every place possible in order to continue to build on it and use its essential truths to our own benefit and the consternation of our enemies.


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## daftandbarmy (25 Nov 2014)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> So what you're saying is 'Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it', right?
> 
> As a history grad, who is driven to the verge of self-harm almost daily by the complete absence of knowledge of anything remotely historical on the part of 99% of Canadians I meet, I believe that we are doomed.
> 
> Wow, just saying that out loud really cheered me up for some paradoxical reason. I should do that more often  ;D


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## Colin Parkinson (25 Nov 2014)

Arguing with someone about the extent of human impact on climate change, apparently I am paranoid because I believe that there is a an agenda in the UN to hobble the West and that the driving political force is to curtail individual freedoms. I love asking how they intend to reach their climate targets without reducing personal freedoms.


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## Brad Sallows (25 Nov 2014)

Speaking of the UN, the mitigation of their agenda is simple.  Wherever crisis strikes of whatever nature, as long as they get to swan around in helicopters hosting well-attended press conferences, they are happy.  Just set aside a few bucks to make them feel important and in-charge, while a coalition of the willing quietly deals with the issue of the day.


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## CougarKing (30 Nov 2014)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Now we see something similar coming out of Turkey, promoted by none other than Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan who claims that Muslims (Turks?) arrived in the Caribbean in the 12th century.



And speaking of Turkey, in the wake of suspicions rising after ISIS fighters suddenly were able to attack the Kurdish town from the Turkish border...

Business Insider



> *The US Is On A Collision Course With An 'Absolutely Indispensable' Ally*
> Business Insider
> REUTERS/Jason Reed U.S. President Barack Obama checks to see if he still needs the umbrella held by a U.S. Marine to protect him from the rain during a joint news conference with then-Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan in the Rose Garden of the White House in Washington, May 16, 2013.
> 
> ...


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## a_majoor (30 Nov 2014)

A much closer to home example of the "anti Western" narrative at work. The idea of putting people into ascriptive groups rather than treating them as sovereign individuals is a huge part of the anti western narrative, and how to socialize people to be civilized is one of the great achievements of the past (Samuel Huntington's book "Who are we?" speaks explicitly about how American policy, business and civic groups worked on multiple levels to assimilate people into the melting pot into the 1930's):

http://www.jerrypournelle.com/chaosmanor/civilizing-barbarians/



> Civilizing barbarians
> By Jerry Pournelle | November 26, 2014 - 12:44 am | Updated: November 26, 2014 - 4:45 pm | View
> View 852 Tuesday, November 25, 2014
> 
> ...


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## Edward Campbell (1 Dec 2014)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> A much closer to home example of the "anti Western" narrative at work. The idea of putting people into ascriptive groups rather than treating them as sovereign individuals is a huge part of the anti western narrative, and how to socialize people to be civilized is one of the great achievements of the past (Samuel Huntington's book "Who are we?" speaks explicitly about how American policy, business and civic groups worked on multiple levels to assimilate people into the melting pot into the 1930's):
> 
> http://www.jerrypournelle.com/chaosmanor/civilizing-barbarians/




I'm sure Jerry Pournelle will get a good dose of hate mail and will be called a racist, but ... there is more than just a grain of truth in what he wrote.

I am dismayed at the _inequitable_ distribution of resources in education throughout North America. First: we have governments reducing spending by cutting education budgets. Two things happen: parents in richer neighbourhoods (who are better educated to start with) provide more financial support to their schools; and special interests demand support for _special_ programmes and that produces concomitant cuts to the academic _core_. Second: we have governments reducing spending by closing homes for the mentally disabled. Two things happen: they mentally disabled children are pushed into an underfunded public school system, requiring more and more money which comes, again, from the academic core; and other _special interests_ demand _equality of outcome_ for the mentally disabled which has the effect of making it more and more difficult for teachers to reward or even recognize academic excellence. Third: society has _revalued_ work, making white collar work more prestigious than blue collar jobs, not, necessarily, more valuable, plumbers and electricians earn more than office and retail workers, just more _desirable_ and this distorts what people demand ~ and yes, boys and girls, the law of supply and demand applies to public services, too, just as it does to everything; socialist will disagree, but ALL socialists are *terminally f'ing stupid* ~ and so it distorts what the education bureaucracy supplies.

One thing I have learned by observation over seven decades on living and working on four continents and several islands is that race has nothing to with intelligence, integrity, industriousness, ambition, dedication and so on and so forth. Culture, on the other hand, what Jerry Pournelle calls _civilization_ predicts a lot about how groups will act and react.

We, Canadians, too, not just Americans, are creating an _uncivilized_ sub-culture within our cities and suburbs. We will pay the price for it.


Edit: format


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## daftandbarmy (1 Dec 2014)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I'm sure Jerry Pournelle will get a good dose of hate mail and will be called a racist, but ... there is more than just a grain of truth in what he wrote.
> 
> I am dismayed at the _inequitable_ distribution of resources in education throughout North America. First: we have governments reducing spending by cutting education budgets. Two things happen: parents in richer neighbourhoods (who are better educated to start with) provide more financial support to their schools; and special interests demand support for _special_ programmes and that produces concomitant cuts to the academic _core_. Second: we have governments reducing spending by closing homes for the mentally disabled. Two things happen: they mentally disabled children are pushed into an underfunded public school system, requiring more and more money which comes, again, from the academic core; and other _special interests_demand _equality of outcome_ for the mentally disabled which has the effect of making it more and more difficult for teachers to reward or even recognize academic excellence. Third: society has _revalued_ work, making white collar work more prestigious than blue collar jobs, not, necessarily, more valuable, plumbers and electricians earn more than office and retail workers, just more _desirable_ and this distorts what people demand ~ and yes, boys and girls, the law of supply and demand applies to public services, too, just as it does to everything; socialist will disagree, but ALL socialists are *terminally f'ing stupid* ~ and so it distorts what the education bureaucracy supplies.
> 
> ...



Our entire university system supports the anti western narrative. I should know: I'm an SFU grad.Good thing we pay billions for that service  :nod:


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## Brad Sallows (4 Dec 2014)

Funding for education in North America is still very high - perhaps still at an all-time per-pupil high - despite any perception of cuts.  The problem is distribution.  There is currently too much administrative overhead.


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## Force (15 Feb 2015)

I came to montreal canada in 2000, I grew up here and studied here. From what I learned in chemstey/philosophy/maths/etc, ALL the people they talk about come from europe, they never gave credit to any middle eastern scientist. I'm not trying to discredit the europeeans, they infact did discover many things. You can google about middle eastern scientists you will be astonished about how much science and maths the europeeans took from the middle east and got the credit only for themselves. Also keep in mind that one of the biggest reasons the west is so develloped compared to the east is because of the colonialism. Aftica/australia/america got looted for almost 500 years. This is a whole lot of resources. It is only 100 years ago that the west discovered that all humans are equal and that colonialism is terrorism.  So when claiming that the west is the most advanced/etc, dont forget that its 500 years of vandalism that got us here. Ofcourse today things have changed but im just highlighting some history that we tend to ingore often.


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## Edward Campbell (12 May 2015)

Part 1 of 2



			
				daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I know he's been discredited by some,  but Victor Davis Hansen seems to think that the West has nothing to worry about:
> 
> Hanson is perhaps best known for his 2001 book, Carnage and Culture, published in some nations (e.g. Australia) as Why the West Has Won, in which he argued that the military dominance of Western Civilization, beginning with the ancient Greeks, is the result of certain fundamental aspects of Western culture, such as consensual government and individualism. Hanson rejects racial explanations for this military preeminence, and disagrees as well with environmental or geographical explanations such as put forth by Jared Diamond in Guns, Germs and Steel.[7]
> 
> ...




Here, reproduced, in two parts, under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Sct from _Foreign Affairs_ is a fascinating _book review_ (of three books, actually) and discourse on the origins of capitalism: 

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/review-essay/2015-04-20/what-caused-capitalism


> What Caused Capitalism?
> *Assessing the Roles of the West and the Rest*
> 
> By Jeremy Adelman
> ...



End of Part 1


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## Edward Campbell (12 May 2015)

Part 2 of 2



> THE ROLE OF THE REST
> 
> The internalist narrative has long been shadowed by an externalist rival, which sees Europe’s leap forward as dependent on relations with places beyond Europe. Externalists summon a different battery of action verbs. Instead of “coordinating” or “interacting,” the system favored “exploiting” and “submitting.” The most recent externalist explanation of capitalism is Beckert’s _Empire of Cotton_. The book is a triple threat: it insists that the Industrial Revolution would never have happened without external trade, that the rise of industrialism and factory labor would never have transpired without the spread of slave labor, and that cotton was a commodity that made an empire and thus the world economy. In other words, capitalism was born global because it required an empire to buoy it.
> 
> ...



Enjoy!


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