# Rank history



## Greywolf (19 Sep 2004)

Hey, does anyone know of any websites where I can find info on the Canadian military rank system and history?


----------



## Michael Dorosh (19 Sep 2004)

www.canadiansoldiers.com - look in the left hand frame for RANKS AND RESPONSIBILITIES.  Not a complete answer, but a start - there are detailed notes on how the rank of corporal has been downgraded from a leadership rank to a mere pay raise for a private soldier.


----------



## Sailing Instructor (30 Sep 2004)

I've also got a curiosity about rank history.  I've read over the 'Ranks and Responsibilities' (as well as most of canadiansoldiers.com) but I've still got a few questions such as:

Why did Brigadier become Brigadier-General?  All the other general ranks are 'x-general' to distinguish the holder of that rank from a normal Lt or Sergeant Major or Captain.  But there was only one brigadier (in charge of a brigade, if my etymological guess is good) so what gives?  Another unification goof-up?

Why isn't Major-General put back in it's place as Serjeant-Major-General and given to the CF Chief Warrant Officer?  Or does the rank actually now refer to that general doing work equivalent to a major (rather than sgt-maj)?  (And thus require an officer to fill that position rather than a warrant officer.)

Anyone got info on naval rank history?  I've got naval officer's rank facts coming out my arse, but I've no idea why Canada has classes of PO and CPO (even before unification) for example.  Some rating rank history would be helpful.


----------



## Steel Badger (18 Dec 2004)

SI


The change from Sgt-Major General to Maj General happened a long while ago ....pre 1700's.......very difficult to go back now... ;D


----------



## Sailing Instructor (19 Dec 2004)

Yes, I suppose so!  I assume one would have to eliminate the commissioned rank of major altogether.

But I guess what I was getting is that, essentially, if the role of majors-general had not changed drastically (I assume it has), they would be doing the same thing as the CF CWO.  But now we have the idea of having MsGen in charge of divisions, so that screws it all up.

Interesting to note that, in the British MOD, the Admiralty has a 2nd sea lord who looks after personnel as a SgtMaj traditionally dids.  I believe that because of the navy's divisional system, there is not as much of a schism as to whether someone with a commission or not does pers admin.  Then again, I'm not too familiar with the history of ranks so my conservatism is muddled.


----------



## Steel Badger (19 Dec 2004)

The orignal role of the sergeant-major general involved getting the army to the field, and its arrangement and ordering on the field.
The offices held by medieval and late medieval general officers are quite different from the roles played by our modern generals.

Essentially, you could say that the roles as we know them crystalized in the 1700's.
The actual terms are a holdover from more distant times.....


----------



## Charmion (22 Dec 2004)

I agree with Mr. Steel Badger above, but would move the date of crystallization into the early 19th century, with the full development of the Prussian staff system and the notion of an army organized in divisions and corps. The rank titles date from before the Napoleonic Wars, when the first modern mass armies appeared.

For a discursive and entertaining course on British naval ranks and their responsibilities (from which ours are derived), I would recommend reading Patrick O'Brien's novels about Capt Jack Aubrey and his friend Stephen Maturin -- all 20.5 of them. Not only are they delightfully well written, they are also punctilious about the culture and activities of the Royal Navy from immediately after Trafalgar to about 1820.


----------



## Steel Badger (23 Dec 2004)

Mr?


Oh GAWD I've been MR'd


----------



## Charmion (23 Dec 2004)

Forgive me; I'm new here. Do you not approve of public politeness?


----------



## SHARP WO (23 Dec 2004)

If someone called me "mister",  I would say that I haven't been commisioned and that I am definetely not my father.

SHARP WO


----------



## Bill Smy (24 Dec 2004)

Sailing Instructor said:
			
		

> Why did Brigadier become Brigadier-General?   All the other general ranks are 'x-general' to distinguish the holder of that rank from a normal Lt or Sergeant Major or Captain.   But there was only one brigadier (in charge of a brigade, if my etymological guess is good) so what gives?   Another unification goof-up?



Sailing Instructor asked the above question. I know that during the American Revolution the appointment of Brigadier could be held by officers holding rank as low as Lieutenenant Colonel. Barry St Leger is an example, commanding the right wing of the invasion of New York colony in the summer of 1777.

I do not know when the rank Brigadier-General was introduced into the rank structure of the British Army, but IIRC at the end of the First World War, there was an outcry in Parliament at great number of Generals in the army, far more than the strength of the army dictated. The War Office solved the problem by simply removing "General" from the Brigadier's rank.

A number of years ago, my old regiment hosted Brigadier Gerrard-Wright at a regimental function. He commented that although he enjoyed the visit, the staff car we provided should not have carried the plate and pennant of Brigadier-General, as Brigadiers did not enjoy General status in the British Army.


----------



## Sailing Instructor (24 Dec 2004)

From what I've read (not in any definitive military source), the ranks of brigadier & brigadier general were introduced more-or-less simultaneously: the Americans & French having the latter while the British used the former.  Of course, the CF changed the rank when they unified in the '60s to match up with the international ranking system (or whatever that thing is called with E-1-_n_ for NCMs & O-1-_n_ for officers).

From my own mostly-uninformed opinion, I'd rather have the _x_-general ranks for certain staff appointments only: like the CDS ('Captain-general of the CF'?) & the CFCWO ('Adjutant-general of the CF'?).  Then leave the ranks of brig, col, etc. for officers commanding various commands, formations, bases, or what-have-you.

I know that the navy used to don the title 'commodore' to any officer in charge of a flotilla of ships (I believe a squadron was reserved for admirals).  We midshipmen, however, abused that title when put in charge of several very small boats.  So the admiralty changed the appointment to be for captains only.


----------



## Storm (26 Dec 2004)

SHARP WO said:
			
		

> If someone called me "mister",   I would say that I haven't been commisioned and that I am definetely not my father.
> 
> SHARP WO



It could also imply that you are an officer by virtue of a warrant rather than a commission. So in the CF case you've been bumped up to CWO, since they get that fancy little piece of wallpaper. Congrats


----------



## Steel Badger (26 Dec 2004)

Charmion said:
			
		

> Forgive me; I'm new here. Do you not approve of public politeness?




Charmion,


Please accept my apologies, I wasn't criticising you nor trying to slag you.

It was my pitiful attempt at humour.......Operating along the lines the being Mister'd is tantamount being called a junior officer  <shudder >>
Or that I have reached a suitably advanced age to be made up to RSM and called MR by the CO <shudder ;D>

No hard feelings?


Merry Christmas

Badger


----------

