# Public Affairs Officer ( PAO ) - merged



## Signal-Man (10 Sep 2005)

Another occupation of interest ...

This is a fairly hard profession to get into.   For one, it's a very small branch within the CF, thus limiting the potential openings.   Two, it is not open to UTPNCM, or atleast it hasn't been for the past few years since I begun researching it.

Thus the only way to "muster" into it is to either CFR or Special Commission.   A CFR baffles me, as there are no occupations in the enlisted realm that relate to PAO's.   Thus the only real option for a Corporal is to Special Commission.   But PaffO's come equipped with their own set of instructions to gain entry into their little nook.   Aside from having to obtain the degree, you also must be employed for a set amount of time with a PAO cell, to get some OJT, experience, etc, etc.

Is this true?   Do you have to have some time spent with the trade before you can attempt to commission into the branch permanently?

Royal Roads University has a very promising programme to equip me with the required education.   Their accelerated programme (1 year on site or 2 years distance education) requires one to have 2 years college in a communications field.   I do (2 yrs associate degree - Business Administration and Computer Science).

I'm naturally going to take the 2 yrs distance ed variant, but they want me travel periodically up to Victoria for 3-5 week intervals to partake in portions of the programme that are only available on-site.   Aside from those costs _(food, travel, lodging)_, the course needs me to fork up over $13,000.00.   Yikes . . . just got over my previous educational expenses before I enlisted several years ago.

Will the army give me that time off with pay, or is leave without pay more or less what they'll offer?   Will the military reimburse these costs if I pass?   Will they help with travel?   Lodging?   Provisions?   Will the military leave me alone so I can finish this programme off and allow me to attend the university during those times I am needed for the course or will I get "Tough luck, the field needs you"?

Can anyone help me out?   I need to arm myself with more knowlege / insight before I hit the PSO with this potential objective.   Any additional insight will be greatly appeciated.

Thanks ... Signal-Man

_VVV_


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## Gunner (10 Sep 2005)

Signal-Man,

You bring up some very good questions, that I certainly cannot answer.   I recommend you contact your local PSO and develop some education strategies that will assist you and they should be able to advise you on how best to become a PAFFO.   Be aware that most of the PAFFOs that I have met have all been reclassified from other trades (mainly cbt arms) for a variety of reasons.   I have met only one PAFFO who joined (through RMC) to be a PAFFO.

It is a small Branch and, based on a conversation I had with a PAFFO last week, he stated they were under their authorized strength.   Not sure if this will be the case once you are in a position to apply to be one.

Good luck.


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## NCRCrow (10 Sep 2005)

SM:
a good start is too have something published in your local paper (Trident, Petawawa Post etc) and even better the Maple Leaf. (Unit milestone, event, parade)

This worked fabulously for my friend (SGT) , who then went to the BPSO (yeah I know, PSO) with the clippings and a great letter from our CO. He is lovin it as a PAFFO.

Just a suggestion.

Crow


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## Signal-Man (10 Sep 2005)

Crow, Gunner ...

Thanks for your replies, you've both been a great help.  Crow ... thats an awesome idea, it never even crossed my mind.  Do you have any idea how'd one would be able to write anything for these papers?  How did your ex-Sgt manage to get an entry in?

_VVV_


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## mdh (10 Sep 2005)

Hi Signal-Man

I am currently VOTing to the reserve PAFFO MOSID (I've been de facto PAFFO at my unit) so I do have some exposure to the reserve/ reg. force PAFFO world. You are right about the trade - it is competitive but by improving your credentials through the Royal Roads program you will make yourself a more viable candidate as an officer (a post graduate degree in either journalism or communications is the preferred credential but undergrad degrees in those areas are also acceptable). There are two programs at RR - one of them is an undergraduate program in communications and the other is a post-graduate MBA program that specializes in Public Relations and Public Affairs (the MBA is the only one of its kind in Canada).   Both are available through distance courses with the three week residency periods you noted.

However there are NCM MOSID alternatives - including image tech and journalist - the guys currently engaged with Army News, for example, are NCMs. You might want to look into this as another way of getting some experience in the trade. Or you might want to start writing the odd article as HFXCrow suggested as a way of building up your portfolio - although quite honestly this can be a tougher road.

Just as an FYI, there is also DEO for the PAFFO trade so it's not just OT - but again you need the right credentials to be competitive. A recruiter would have the exact number of slots available, but I believe it was something like 5 for this fiscal year.

As Gunner stated, talk to your PSO but reiterate your goal and your desire to achieve a higher credential in the field. In may case I had quite a bit of experience in the civvy street before I came back to the reserves so it was a natural fit.

PM me if you need any more information.

cheers, mdh


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## NCRCrow (11 Sep 2005)

No matter what you do, the CO's recommendation  is the most important and crucial for your CFR.

I agree with the educational utility but volunteering to submit an article/unit newsletter or even having secondary appointment/duty as maybe the Unit's Public Affairs Assistant. 

Will pay great dividends , when the CO makes his recommendation.

Crow


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## Strike (11 Sep 2005)

Volunteering to be your unit's UIO or D/UIO can also help.  This will give you a chance to write some articles at a regular interval for both the Maple Leaf and your base paper.  It would also give you the opportunity to take the Defence Public Affairs course (DPAC) which is held twice a year, and is highly recommended for UIOs and their deputies.


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## RatCatcher (15 Aug 2006)

Hi everyone;

I am looking for information in regards to the public affaires occupation.  I am considering applying for UTPNCM this year (2007 program) or await my return from ARCHER (in the next couple of years). I am planning to attend RMC in the Arts program with the enphasis on Mil History or Mil and Strat Studies. 

The main information I am looking for is what the job really entails, i.e. expanding on the recruiting web site.  My background is Medical (PMed Tech), however I am a news and history junkie.  Would this trait (some would call it a curse) help me in my application, etc...

Any help is appreciated

Phil

"Give a soldier an old coin hung on a scrap of cloth and he will do amazing things"
Unknown


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## bigcletus (9 Jan 2007)

I might be able to help you out..if you still need info...


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## tree hugger (19 Jan 2007)

I may not be the original poster, but any reserve PAO info would be helpful....


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## bigcletus (19 Jan 2007)

ask away...


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## tree hugger (19 Jan 2007)

From a reserve perspective:

Does Navy, Air, Land all take the same course?
Where is it held?
How long is it?
What are the main topics covered?
What do your regular in unit activities include?


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## bigcletus (19 Jan 2007)

From a reserve perspective:

Does Navy, Air, Land all take the same course?  yes...the basic (Lt qualified) crse is called DPAC

Where is it held?  Normally, Cornwall, ON

How long is it? 2 weeks..however..that being said, you normally need either a journalism degree or Public Relations degree.  This just tweaks the candidates skills to DND standards.  To become Capt qualified (i.e. run your own PA shop), you need the RPAO crse, a combon of distance learning and on site (Ottawa).  This will take about a year, on a part-time basis. 

What are the main topics covered? Preparing media releases, writing stories, use of the different methods of dealing with media, i.e. press conferences etc. 

What do your regular in unit activities include?  facilitating media interviews with members of the units/brigade; issuing media advisories, Public Service Announcements etc.  Training soldiers, officers, and CO's on how to deal with media.  Developing rapport with all media reps, of both small and large
media agencies.  Everything from weekely newspapers to CBC , CTV, Globe and Mail etc.

email me at bigcletusATyahoo.com.com (replace the obvious) if you have other inquiries


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## tree hugger (19 Jan 2007)

2 weeks?  That has to be the shortest course ever!

What element are you? Res or reg?

When did you complete your training?


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## bigcletus (19 Jan 2007)

contact me via email


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## Strike (20 Jan 2007)

tree hugger,

If you are interested in the trade, but aren't quite sure if you want to commit, you can try to get on the DPAC course.  Although a primary course for those who want to be PAO, it is also a highly recommended course for anyone who is a Unit Information Officer.  If your unit has a UIO, see if you can't do some work for them.  A terrific way to get a small idea of what the job is about.  If your unit doesn't have one, volunteer.  The PA net is very open and there will always be someone willing to help out when needed.

As for Res PAOs, although in the recent past they were not that common, the past few years has seen more of them introduced into the fold.

By the way, have ot on good authority that the trade is currently short about 35 Capt Regs.  Don't know what the Res numbers are.


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## bigcletus (20 Jan 2007)

The Res world is also down bodies, altho I don't know the numbers.  Each Bde is allocated 2 positions, one Class B/A and one Class A.  The Class A positions are a challenge tho, as the PAO shortage results in back-fills across the country due to MATA/PATA and overseas taskings.  The Land Areas also have Res PA's in-house. Beginning in teh near future, the Naval Res is also going to be setting up Res PAO cadres..using the Army model.  So most NAV RES units will have an in-house PAO.


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## tree hugger (20 Jan 2007)

I am not actually "in" at present, so I can't volunteer for anything... 

I was medically released from reg force but my grievance disclosure came back and they are re-enrolling me.  I can be air or sea, reserve or reg.  I'm thinking navy reserve.  My only options would be IntO, LogO or PAO due to my medical category.  But because there is only one unit near me, I'll probably get what ever thet have an open slot for.  I'm trying to learn the most that I can so if I have an option, I can actually pick the right one for me.


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## geo (20 Jan 2007)

Whew..... I thought some agitator was writing about the "occupation" of Afghanistan... which it isn't...........

ok.... back to our regularly scheduled forum


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## tree hugger (20 Jan 2007)

Geo, Geo, Geo...  ^-^


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## geo (20 Jan 2007)

(THAT'S ME! )


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## mrdubs (20 Jan 2007)

Hello everyone.

I was just wondering if anyone can enumerate the posting choices you have for a first posting as a PAO?

Thanks in advance


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## Strike (20 Jan 2007)

Let me just say that I am not a PAO, but am involved in the field so, from what I have seen with friends and former coursemates, their initial postings range from Combat Camera to base or brigade PAOs.  I have also seen some go to specific units like the Snowbirds on their first go.  Where is someone more likely to be sent geographically?  It all depends what spot is opening up and if you have the qualifications (on top of the basic requirements) to fill that job.


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## BritishBuzzard (12 May 2011)

Is anyone one, or know one? Just wondering how you find the role?

My background is PR and Broadcasting. I obtained a Broadcasting and Communications degree in my native UK, before going on to work in broadcast news as a TV reporter. I then formed a national PR business that did well, before packing up and emigrating to Canada. I now work as Director of Marketing with a technology company.

The career seems right up my street. I'm particularly interested in the Air Force as I come from a strong aviation background, and hold a PPL. Aviation has always been in my blood.

I'd appreciate any information anyone has on the job. It looks very involved, with lots of information management and a good chance to see lots of everything.


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## Fishbone Jones (12 May 2011)

Send a PM to a member here with the username Strike.


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## Strike (12 May 2011)

Jeez recceguy! I WAS planning on participating.  Didn't want to do it at work and then had to go for a run!

BB,
You're asking at a good time, since the trade lost more people this year then they forecast so I would recommend that you go into a recruiting centre tout-de-suite to get the whole story and see what your chances are once you're a full-fledged Canuck.

Let me answer the easy one first.  Should you get accepted, you won't necessarily get to go into the Air Force.  PA is what we call a purple trade, in that everyone, no matter what their uniform colour, goes through the same training.  So that means that you would get whatever element they need to fill.  You can, of course, put down a preference, but that doesn't guarantee you'll get it.

Your background sounds like exactly what the CF is looking for in a Direct Entry Officer.  You've got the right degree and the right work experience. (Of course, I haven't seen your CV.    )

As for what we do, you name it and it's being done.  There is such a variety of positions available within the trade, from policy to media liaison to marketing, but the most likely one you'll see, and what people are most familiar with, is the PAO acting as an adviser to a commander.  That job can involve prepping a spokesperson, organizing news conferences, media monitoring, community outreach, etc, etc.

There is a big push right now to get PAOs up to speed with comparable abilities to image techs, not to do their jobs for them but so that they know how to direct them to get the product that's needed.  There's also a huge push to get the trade up to speed wrt social networking - Twitter, FB, LinkedIn, etc.

I hope this helps you out a bit.  PM me if you want any more info and I'll see what I can do.

Mods - Any chance we can move this to the Recruiting thread since it really is a tri-service topic?


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## malamudagain (9 Jun 2011)

Strike sounds like the man on the inside with helpful info and tips.
Good, I hope more people do leave so that there is opportunity for others.

But let me give you the inside scoop from a guy (off the street) who went into the CFRC to ask about PA Officer.

It is closed (DEO).
And to quote the CF recruiter, "even in the best of times, this trade only has 2 or 3 DEO positions available annually".

If Strike has further insight into the matter, I am sure many would love to hear it.

I for one would like to know how difficult is it to "transfer" into PA Officer since I was told that is how most positions get staffed.


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## Strike (9 Jun 2011)

malamudagain said:
			
		

> Strike sounds like the *woman* on the inside with helpful info and tips.
> 
> I for one would like to know how difficult is it to "transfer" into PA Officer since I was told that is how most positions get staffed.



You've got to remember that the new numbers come out in April and PAO is one of the more competitive positions so any openings would have filled up early.  If the open spots get filled with reservists then that means they would not have as many spots next year.

As for most spots being filled by people with previous service, that's a fallacy.  It's about 1/2 and 1/2.


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## malamudagain (15 Jun 2011)

Strike:  I stand corrected Ma'am.

Listen, there is a difference between "competitive" and "next to impossible".
Med school is competitive. But with hundreds of openings across the province at different schools at least you stand a shot if you have decent grades.
With PAO, 2 or 3 spots to fill only with people applying across a country of 30 million plus trying to get it, well that's next to impossible.
I understand that PAO is a more esoteric trade in the Forces, but still, that' is a very low intake.  However, that seems to be the recruitment theme for this year to the disappointment of many applicants.


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## Strike (15 Jun 2011)

malamudagain said:
			
		

> Listen, there is a difference between "competitive" and "next to impossible".



That's right.  The ones that think getting into this trade is next to impossible are probably the ones who aren't competitive.

Sorry to be so blunt, but saying it's next to impossible is a defeatist attitude to take.  It also makes it sound like applying for
the trade is like winning the lottery, which couldn't be further from the truth.


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## jwtg (16 Jun 2011)

malamudagain said:
			
		

> With PAO, 2 or 3 spots to fill only with people applying across a country of 30 million plus trying to get it, well that's next to impossible.



I doubt they have 30 million applications for PAO.


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## malamudagain (20 Jun 2011)

It’s easy to be blunt with someone from the outside looking in when you are already comfortably within as a PAO with the position essentially yours for as long as you wish (i.e. retirement).  

I’m sure you will disagree with me (you already do) but my attitude has nothing to do with it.  If applying for this trade is not like winning a lottery of sorts, show me otherwise.  *Where are the jobs?  Where are the opportunities?*  You said in a previous post that the trade lost more people than expected.  Great!  Why are we sitting at 0 positions available nationally then?  Same story last year.  Possibly same story next year.  I told you, word for word, what the official CF recruiter told me when I asked about the trade.  Should I not rely on the info that he provided to me?  That is, 2 or 3 spots available nationally “on a good year”.  So if that’s what is available on a good year, I’m not sure how you can suggest that it is because of my defeatist attitude that my chances are so slim.  I think I am competitive, but I am trying to get an accurate reading of what my chances are realistically.   Furthermore, waiting years for a possible position is truly something else.  MARS is another trade I have expressed interest in, and it is also at 0, and that trade has a much larger cadre than PAO and was apparently “in demand” not too long ago.  

If you’d be willing, I’d be curious to hear how you entered the trade.  How long did you wait?  What were the circumstances at the time?  I’ve been told that the best time to join the military is when the economy is doing well and the outlook is rosy.  That’s not the environment we find ourselves in now, is it? Hasn’t been so for a couple of years now.  I found it quite amusing to hear that the CF recruiter whom I have been working with for some time shared with me that from the time he applied to the time he was at boot camp was about 7 weeks.   That’s how long some people wait to write their CFAT now-a-days. Quite a difference.


jwtg: I didn’t mean to say that 30 million people apply for PAO or any other trade for that matter, all I was saying is that there exists a large pool from which to draw on, and of those 30 million +, there will be a significant number from within that that will compete for spots in a small military with limited numbers.


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## jwtg (20 Jun 2011)

Your disappointment at the number of positions available for the trades you desire is perfectly understandable.  You want jobs but those jobs can't be yours for reasons beyond your control.  It's unfortunate, but it's the way it is. 
As a taxpayer, I'd prefer they don't start giving out jobs that don't exist.

I sympathize with your disappointment at your lack of opportunity, but I would be careful about pointing the finger at the CF.  They don't recruit for the sake of applicants- they recruit for the sake of meeting the needs of the CF.  If those needs are met in terms of MARS Officers and PAO, then it would be irresponsible to start recruiting for them.


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## JMesh (20 Jun 2011)

MARS is currently not recruiting in part due to training backlogs. There are so many MARS officers waiting to get on MARS III that there's no point in enrolling more since they will be unable to be trained/employed in their trade.

As for PAO, you can dislike that there are few spots as much as you want. The CF will hire according to its needs. If it doesn't need them, it's not going to hire more. It will, when spots open, not hire based on a lottery, but rather, it will be very selective, hiring only the best of the applicants for a trade. The CF always has and will continue to fill spots with the people felt to be most qualified, particularly now when we have so few spots and so many applicants. This is just the fact of the matter, and not to be abrasive, but you might as well get used to it now.


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## Sigger (23 Jun 2011)

<rant>
I wonder sometimes why people feel entitled to a career in the Canadian Forces. They get pissy when there are not any available positions. It is quite annoying.
If, for example, Microsoft was not hiring and you had all the applicable skills, would you bitch and moan because they would not accept a resume?  STOP BITCHING!

I feel for the mods having to wade through all the whining.

</rant>


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## George Wallace (23 Jun 2011)

We usually take the time to enjoy some cheese with those comments, so it isn't that rough on us Mods..........Really...........So I jest.   ;D


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## Strike (23 Jun 2011)

Thank you for that Sigger.  Comparing something like this to civvie-world is sometimes all it takes for understanding to dawn.


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## malamudagain (24 Jun 2011)

Strike suggested that my previous comment “makes it sound like applying for
the trade is like winning the lottery, which couldn't be further from the truth.”

I then challenged Strike to show me where these opportunities are since clearly I was not able to see any vacant positions for the past 2 years, and then I get labelled a whiner, pissy, etc.

Sigger, I’ll tell you what’s annoying.  Having a guy like you employed in the Forces, either now or previously at one point (i.e. a guy who’s had his kick at the can), telling me that I feel entitled to career in the Forces and then dumping on me.   

Jwtg, I agree, I’m not asking anyone to “create” a job that doesn’t exist and no one would do that for me even if I wanted it that way, so don’t worry about that happening.   I’m just saying that I didn’t appreciate having someone who has been quite lucky in her career to be a pilot and now  PAO (2 very difficult trades to enter) to suggest that is my attitude that is the reason for coming up to a brick wall for every trade I pursue, rather than the dismal employment conditions at the CF.  

BritishBuzzard, you have been silent, but if you were serious about your desire, you’d be smart to return to the UK and join British Forces which is a larger organization with hopefully more opportunities.  As you can see, the situation here is pretty dismal for people with a hope and desire to serve their country in a trade that matches their education, qualifications and interests.


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## Michael OLeary (24 Jun 2011)

malamudagain said:
			
		

> I for one would like to know how difficult is it to "transfer" into PA Officer since I was told that is how most positions get staffed.



I've been working with a Res PAO that just got picked up for CT. He was telling me that for two openings for Captains to CT from Res to Reg this year, there were over 30 applicants. So, it's still certainly competitive.


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## Strike (24 Jun 2011)

malamudagain said:
			
		

> I then challenged Strike to show me where these opportunities are since clearly I was not able to see any vacant positions for the past 2 years, and then I get labelled a whiner, pissy, etc.



I did not say that you were a whiner or pissy.  I said that you were taking a defeatist attitude by comparing it to a lottery.

The opportunities I mentioned in my first post are in reference to the rumblings being passed around in the branch.  The trade is going through a flux right now and, just because you aren't seeing the results immediately at the CFRC does not mean they aren't there.

Several people here have brought up some very valid points but you keep going back to how it's impossible to get into the trade.  It is NOT impossible, it's very difficult.

As for saying that I am lucky to have gotten in as a pilot and then as a PAO, I am insulted.  I worked VERY hard to achieve both, and those efforts paid off.  I was not given a free pass.  I stayed up late at night studying, failed tests, passed rewrites, studied some more, and have given up many things to get where I am today.  None of it had anything to do with luck.

There was no lottery.  My file was evaluated against others and was able to make it high enough up on the pile that I was chosen for my trades.  NO LOTTERY!


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## Nauticus (24 Jun 2011)

malamudagain said:
			
		

> Strike suggested that my previous comment “makes it sound like applying for
> the trade is like winning the lottery, which couldn't be further from the truth.”
> 
> I then challenged Strike to show me where these opportunities are since clearly I was not able to see any vacant positions for the past 2 years, and then I get labelled a whiner, pissy, etc.
> ...


I won't comment specifically on PAO, but the Canadian Forces can now afford to hire only the very best for pretty much any trade they hire for. It's not a lottery, and it's not impossible.

What you're missing is that, yes, some of us are comfortably in the CF, but we can make these comments because just like you, we underwent the application process and, just like you, competed with others. 

I suppose what you can take out of this conversation is this: The opportunities are there (perhaps not immediately, but they will be at some point in the future, just as in the past).  Use this time to become a strong applicant so that next time, when you apply for the position, you end up being the top candidate to get the job offer.


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## Neill McKay (25 Jun 2011)

Strike said:
			
		

> As for saying that I am lucky to have gotten in as a pilot and then as a PAO, I am insulted.  I worked VERY hard to achieve both, and those efforts paid off.  I was not given a free pass.  I stayed up late at night studying, failed tests, passed rewrites, studied some more, and have given up many things to get where I am today.  None of it had anything to do with luck.



I don't mean to speak for anyone else, but I think that when people say "lucky" they as often as not mean "fortunate".  I don't think there's any implication that you got where you are without having worked for it.


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## Scott (25 Jun 2011)

malamudagain said:
			
		

> Strike suggested that my previous comment “makes it sound like applying for
> the trade is like winning the lottery, which couldn't be further from the truth.”
> 
> I then challenged Strike to show me where these opportunities are since clearly I was not able to see any vacant positions for the past 2 years, and then I get labelled a whiner, pissy, etc.
> ...



 :'(


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## Fishbone Jones (26 Jun 2011)

WTF!!! I heard Ford Motor Company was looking for a new CEO for NA Operations. I drive a Ford and I want the job. They told me it wasn't available to me at this time and that I would have to wait in line like everyone else!

That's bullshit!!! I'm available and I want the job. It should be mine! I don't need no stinking badges!!!

How dare they tell me the job is now closed without even considering me. Their loss, I guess. Bunch of wankers don't know what they're passing up by not putting me at the front of the line and giving me the job.

I'm changing my truck to a Toyota.

Bastards.


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## Scott (26 Jun 2011)

So you're not going to bitch someone out on an internet forum first? 

Pussy.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (26 Jun 2011)

The last 2 posts just made me spout my energy drink through my nostrils...........that's funny sh*t.



However, lets try and keep this thing on topic.
Thanks,
Bruce


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## medicineman (26 Jun 2011)

You could argue that recceguy's statement was directly related to the topic in that he was illustrating that it's not easy getting into many jobs these days, one in the CF and in particlular, PAO.  But of course, my wife keeps telling me I have to "quit playing the straight guy"  :.

I suppose I could dig out a few things from my career in the CF that seems to illustrate that you get what ever number comes up and not what you want, as I swear my career manager has a little figure 11 with each of our faces on it with a number of postings in the various scoring rings, the one you like the most as the bull's eye and your least favorite in the outer ring...and he can't shoot to save his or anyone else's life.  Needless to say, I've been posted pretty much nowhere I wanted to go except for one spot - I got to pick that poison from a selection of very poisonous spots and actually lucked out.  I'm certainly not where I want to be now, but I worked pretty hard to end up with the best job that there is in this location I think...so it's part lottery but is still a large part hard work.  When you're applying for a finite number of spots, as I tell my kid, you've got to show why you deserve to be where you want to be.  The CF won't come to you - it's an employer's market right now, so instead of complaining about how hard it is, pull your finger out, buff the resume and go "Hey, you should hire me because...".  You could also take the round about route and get in as something else and remuster after taking on some unit level PA work, then show the powers that be why you should be taken on by excelling at it.  If you want a career in the CF right now and in a specific, low intake job, you often have to take second choice and then push hard for first after proving yourself.

MM


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## Fishbone Jones (26 Jun 2011)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> The last 2 posts just made me spout my energy drink through my nostrils...........that's funny sh*t.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry Bruce, thought I was


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## malamudagain (28 Jun 2011)

N. McKay said:
			
		

> I don't mean to speak for anyone else, but I think that when people say "lucky" they as often as not mean "fortunate".  I don't think there's any implication that you got where you are without having worked for it.



^Correct^  

Strike, your service to your country is appreciated.  
All I'm trying to say is that if you were applying *now* with the rest of us, things could have turned out quite differently for you.
Things today are quite different from 15 years ago. I am happy for your success in landing desirable trades  _and for your good fortune_.
I do not begrudge you your interesting experiences in the CF.  I just wish opportunities were more plentiful.
Stay Safe.

ps. Thanks for the good advice from everyone.


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## Strike (28 Jun 2011)

And again I beg to differ.

When I applied for pilot the trade was just as competitive as it is now.  Considering the cuts that the CF faced in 1994 I would hazard a guess that it was even more competitive.

As for my switch to PAO, there were 2 spots open for voluntary transfer and more than 200 people who had applied.

Please stop comparing my efforts and successes to chance and stop backpedaling on your remarks.  Unfortunately it reeks of insincerity, whether you mean it or not.


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## malamudagain (29 Jun 2011)

Ok Strike, you've had no good luck in your military career, no good fortune at all.  It's been all you.  
Why stop at PAO or the CF? Somebody with your exceptionally strong credentials and aptitude should be applying to CSA.  
_Now_ you can correctly say my remarks reek with insincerity.  

I'm not backpeddling on anything.  Things are unbalanced.  A new generation of young  applicants are not going anywhere with their applications because of lack of opportunities. I'm not saying anyone is to blame, but it is what it is.   And it sucks.  However, I don't begrudge anyone their career or success in the CF as I mentioned in my last post.  And for those comparing things to Ford or Microsoft, there are many _other _ car companies or software companies out there to apply to if Ford and Microsoft tell you to go fly a kite.  The CF holds a monopoly on certain services in this country, so there is no other place "to go" unless you hold another passport and can go serve in a foreign military.  But in your eyes, such individuals who have that opportunity (hold multiple passports) aren't lucky as well.  It's all them and their skills that are responsible for that blessing.  Right?  Luck and good fortune play no role with you;  your adament dismal of this element in life is puzzling. 

Don't worry.  This will be my last posting in this thread.  
It's customary to wish someone good luck as they embark on a new endeavor (as you are), but in your case I shall refrain since it clearly bugs you.


----------



## aesop081 (29 Jun 2011)

:crybaby:



			
				malamudagain said:
			
		

> I'm not saying anyone is to blame,



There is no one to blame because there is no blame to be had, by anyone. The CF needs certain number of people in each trade. When we have that number, we dont need anyone else. The CF does not exist to provide you with career opportunities.


----------



## Strike (29 Jun 2011)

malamudagain said:
			
		

> And for those comparing things to Ford or Microsoft, there are many _other _ car companies or software companies out there to apply to if Ford and Microsoft tell you to go fly a kite.  The CF holds a monopoly on certain services in this country, so there is no other place "to go" unless you hold another passport and can go serve in a foreign military.



mala...

PA/PR is probably one of the most portable jobs around.  The only thing that the CF really holds a monopoly on in those jobs that are also available in the public/private sector is that they train the people who get accepted into those jobs.

And remember, although spots are tight right now with the CF, this isn't a new thing.  It happens in cycles, which is why many of us are being short with you in this regard.  We've seen it before and some of us have been directly affected or had to deal with it.  Wait another year and things will open up a bit more.  Don't forget though that this trade has less than 200 people (Reg Force) in the entire CF so there will never be enough spots for those who want them.


----------



## GAP (29 Jun 2011)

Wow.....what a sense of entitlement...... :


----------



## Michael OLeary (29 Jun 2011)

There's no need for this to continue. 

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## army1 (19 Jan 2012)

My top choice at the moment is the Public Affairs Officer position. I plan to obtain a Master's degree in Public Administration before applying for the PA Officer position and to gain more direct work experience for the next 2 years in that field. 

Would that be considered a competitive applicant: A person with a Master's in a relevant field when the position only asks for a Bachelor's and direct work experience in that field? 

Does having the Masters make someone more competitive for this position?


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Jan 2012)

Just curious:  how do you see a public administration degree "relevant" to Public Affairs?  

Don't get me wrong - a degree is generally good, but I don't know how much communications and media relations work gets covered in such degrees?


----------



## army1 (19 Jan 2012)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Just curious:  how do you see a public administration degree "relevant" to Public Affairs?
> 
> Don't get me wrong - a degree is generally good, but I don't know how much communications and media relations work gets covered in such degrees?



From the Public Affairs Officer qualifications on Forces.ca

"To qualify for direct entry as a public affairs officer, you must have either a master’s degree in any field or, as a minimum, a Bachelor Degree in Art and Literature, Communications, Public Relations, International Relations, Journalism, or Politics."

Public Administration is a subfield of Political Science at many schools. So the degree says: Masters of Political Science: Public Administration. I have also looked into degrees in other subfields of Politics. All they want for you to have is an MA that is related to politics. Also, Art/Literature are not related to media relations and they say that's fine for a BA.


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Jan 2012)

Cool - let's see what folks in the field have to say.  Thanks.


----------



## fraserdw (19 Jan 2012)

You would have to show the you have quite a bit of media relations study in your degrees.  Typically PAffO requires a degree in Journalism or an Arts degree with work experience in journalism sometimes makes it.  I would suggest you would need alot of both right now as we seem to be fairly heavy withthe spin boys.


----------



## army1 (19 Jan 2012)

fraserdw said:
			
		

> You would have to show the you have quite a bit of media relations study in your degrees.  Typically PAffO requires a degree in Journalism or an Arts degree with work experience in journalism sometimes makes it.  I would suggest you would need alot of both right now as we seem to be fairly heavy withthe spin boys.



It says Politics and International Relations even as potential degrees. Political Science is an "arts" degree. I think they care more about assessing your skills related to the job rather than JUST the degree you have. There's a reason it says "Master's Degree in any field". The completion of a Master's degree indicates that the person has obtained a certain skill set. Plus, the job technically only requires a Bachelor's degree so a Master's in one of the fields they listed seems like it would make the person competitive for the job. 

I probably would have to start getting experience in jobs relating to government/public affairs (which is very possible since many master's programs offer CO-OP options).


----------



## Strike (19 Jan 2012)

fraserdw said:
			
		

> I would suggest you would need alot of both right now as we seem to be *pretty full up in the trade.*



FTFY.  ;D

If you are looking to be competitive, the best bet may well be experience in Journalism/media or PR with a large business/government.

Of the civilians that I have seen coming in to the trade, some had Masters degrees, but it was their experience in the field more than their advanced schooling that likely got them in.

Of course, I'm not in recruiting, nor am I a career manager.  I'm just passing on my own experiences with what I have seen of my Direct Entry counterparts.


----------



## army1 (19 Jan 2012)

Well on the website it said that the 'equivalent' of PA officer in civilian life is foreign affairs analyst, etc. So if I worked for the government as a policy analyst or in a department relating to political affairs, would that help me out too? I think it would otherwise they would not be saying that they're looking for degrees in Politics/International Relations. 

Strike, I am guessing you are a PA officer. I am entirely sure the grad degree did help those people get into the trade (it sets you apart) but probably the combination of that and work experience is what makes a candidate really competitive? I still have 2-2.5 years until i would apply for this position because I want to get my Master's degree first. Hopefully lots of spots open up by then.


----------



## Strike (19 Jan 2012)

Yes, it is very much the combination of the two.

As for what work experience you should get, policy and political affairs, not so much.  PAOs don't generally play in that field until they are further in their careers.  Media analysis and monitoring and PR would be a better bet.


----------



## army1 (19 Jan 2012)

Strike said:
			
		

> Yes, it is very much the combination of the two.
> 
> As for what work experience you should get, policy and political affairs, not so much.  PAOs don't generally play in that field until they are further in their careers.  Media analysis and monitoring and PR would be a better bet.



Well I will have my Bachelor's degree by the summer time, what type of places (or government departments) do you suggest applying to for part time jobs (or full time, depending if I get into the Masters programs of my choice this year) so that I can gain experience in media analysis/PR as I do my graduate degree? Do a lot of slots open up each year for PA Officer or is like less than 200 spots per year? 

Also, PR jobs differ from minimum wage jobs to normal starting salaries. I am pretty sure they don't care about 'very beginner' PR jobs as good experience?


----------



## Strike (19 Jan 2012)

200 per year?  Our whole trade isn't even that big!  The norm is usually only 1 or 2 direct entry a year and about the same for transfers within the CF.

As for what jobs to look for, can't really help you there.  The civvies I was on course with had done work with media in both print and television as well as worked at various embassy offices in the PR and media monitoring sections.  Some have even worked with political parties during election campaigns.


----------



## army1 (19 Jan 2012)

Strike said:
			
		

> 200 per year?  Our whole trade isn't even that big!  The norm is usually only 1 or 2 direct entry a year and about the same for transfers within the CF.
> 
> As for what jobs to look for, can't really help you there.  The civvies I was on course with had done work with media in both print and television as well as worked at various embassy offices in the PR and media monitoring sections.  Some have even worked with political parties during election campaigns.



Wow. 2 per year? I am guessing more than 2 people apply per year who have graduate degrees in the relevant fields (meaning that those with Bachelor's alone aren't very competitive)...that means that this officer position might be more competitive to get into than pilot. Do you need MANY YEARS of experience or do you know people who have gotten in with 2 years or less of experience?

I know my graduate degree will help when I apply but if I am competing for 2 spots a year, not easy.


----------



## Strike (19 Jan 2012)

Sometimes it can be a bit of a crap shoot.  On my own course we had 3 people with experience in the subject and one that had literally just got out of school with a BA in Poli-Sci.  Sometimes it just comes down to giving a kick-ass interview.

Really, I could give you a whole bunch of advice and it could all end up being for naught in the end depending on who's reading the files.  But having experience will certainly not hurt you.

You could also see about going the Reserve route.  They have PAOs as well.  Then it's just a matter of a bit of extra training if you ever decided to go the Reg Force route.


----------



## army1 (19 Jan 2012)

Strike said:
			
		

> Sometimes it can be a bit of a crap shoot.  On my own course we had 3 people with experience in the subject and one that had literally just got out of school with a BA in Poli-Sci.  Sometimes it just comes down to giving a kick-*** interview.
> 
> Really, I could give you a whole bunch of advice and it could all end up being for naught in the end depending on who's reading the files.  But having experience will certainly not hurt you.
> 
> You could also see about going the Reserve route.  They have PAOs as well.  Then it's just a matter of a bit of extra training if you ever decided to go the Reg Force route.



That's a potential option (reserves). Are there more spots available each year in the Reserves option?


----------



## ModlrMike (20 Jan 2012)

The chief challenge with the Reserves is that you would have to find a unit that had a vacant PAO position on the establishment.


----------



## BDTyre (20 Jan 2012)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> The chief challenge with the Reserves is that you would have to find a unit that had a vacant PAO position on the establishment.



I don't know about the rest of the country, but I believe here in 39 Brigade, there is one PAO for the entire brigade and he works out of/is part of 39 CBG HQ. I'm not aware of any regiments that have their own PAO.


----------



## ModlrMike (20 Jan 2012)

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> I don't know about the rest of the country, but I believe here in 39 Brigade, there is one PAO for the entire brigade and he works out of/is part of 39 CBG HQ. I'm not aware of any regiments that have their own PAO.



Perhaps, but in the Naval Reserve each unit has a PAO. Plus there's one at formation level.


----------



## tree hugger (20 Jan 2012)

I'm a PAO in the naval reserve still under training.  On my course the army types are generally in another trade or on the Primary Reserve list as individual units don't have PAO specific slot.  The naval reserve have each been given a slot for PAO but a few units still have this unfilled, or it's being filled as part of someone's secondary duties.  I VOT'd into the trade with a very non-traditional PA education.   :nod:


----------



## army1 (20 Jan 2012)

tree hugger said:
			
		

> I'm a PAO in the naval reserve still under training.  On my course the army types are generally in another trade or on the Primary Reserve list as individual units don't have PAO specific slot.  The naval reserve have each been given a slot for PAO but a few units still have this unfilled, or it's being filled as part of someone's secondary duties.  I VOT'd into the trade with a very non-traditional PA education.   :nod:



That's great to hear. I will have the type of degree they're looking for, I just hope there's spots open up for PAO in the naval reserve when I apply in July.


----------



## tree hugger (20 Jan 2012)

I'd contact your local reserve unit now and ask if there is an opening.  Either way, applications can take a long time to process.  Better start sooner rather than later....


----------



## BDTyre (20 Jan 2012)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Perhaps, but in the Naval Reserve each unit has a PAO. Plus there's one at formation level.



Thanks for the clarification Mike!


----------



## army1 (9 Apr 2012)

I will have my Bachelor's degree this July and I have applied to a few graduate programs for a Master's degree. 

I'd like to become a Public Affairs Officer in the Forces...so my question is: Is there a way to join as a Public Affairs Officer and have the Forces pay for my Masters Degree and then I will owe the Forces some years of service? Something similar to the ROTP program but for Grad School?

Also, what is the best way to become a PA Officer? Is it easier to get a spot by joining Reserves first and then switching over to Reg. Force?


----------



## Cui (9 Apr 2012)

Well, according to many sources, PAO is pretty full.

As well, I believe that PAO only requires a Bachelor's, so there is no sense in sending you to grad school on government dime this early.

As most of us here are not recruiters, you might want to talk to one. They have the most up to date information about everything.


----------



## army1 (9 Apr 2012)

Cui said:
			
		

> Well, according to many sources, PAO is pretty full.
> 
> As well, I believe that PAO only requires a Bachelor's, so there is no sense in sending you to grad school on government dime this early.
> 
> As most of us here are not recruiters, you might want to talk to one. They have the most up to date information about everything.



They prefer hiring those with a Master's degree. I hear that it's rare that someone gets a PA officer spot with only a bachelor's. They must have 3+ years of experience in the field to be considered with only a BA.

I posted here because I know there are a few PA officers on the board here. Thanks for the input.


----------



## The Bread Guy (9 Apr 2012)

Army1:  A whole bunch of information on what you seek awaits you here:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/104184.0.html

The only thing we can predict:  I see a merge in your immediate future.....

*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## army1 (9 Apr 2012)

So here's my question to members of this forum: What is the best way to become a PA Officer and is there an ROTP-style program for individuals with a BA who want to go to grad school to become a PA Officer?


----------



## Strike (9 Apr 2012)

Since getting the CF to pay for a Master's for those members already serving is a competitive process, why would they spend the money to pay for a person who hasn't even been accepted yet?

A Master's is NOT a requirement to become a PAO (off the street), just highly recommended. People do get in as PAO with just a BA, even without experience in the field.  It may be rare, but it does happen.


----------



## army1 (9 Apr 2012)

Strike said:
			
		

> Since getting the CF to pay for a Master's for those members already serving is a competitive process, why would they spend the money to pay for a person who hasn't even been accepted yet?
> 
> A Master's is NOT a requirement to become a PAO (off the street), just highly recommended. People do get in as PAO with just a BA, even without experience in the field.  It may be rare, but it does happen.



Good to know. I should probably talk to a recruiter now that were in April....new fiscal year now means more spots are open for the year.


----------



## aesop081 (9 Apr 2012)

army1 said:
			
		

> new fiscal year now means more spots are open for the year.



"May mean more spots".

"May".


----------



## bcguy604 (14 Sep 2012)

I am seriously considering remustering from NAVCOMM to PAO (reserves). Many people are suggesting I do this based on my education and civilian career (related to PAO), however, others have mentioned it is a dead end trade and that I will be stuck at Lt(N). 

Would value any input?

Thanks!


----------



## dimsum (14 Sep 2012)

Your reasons for not picking PAO (Reserves) are...interesting.  If you have a civilian career and aren't planning on making the CF your full-time career, why would PAO promotion possibilities really matter?


----------



## Journeyman (14 Sep 2012)

Well, as Sir Joseph tells us in Gilbert & Sullivan's "HMS Pinafore":

_Stick close to your desks and never go to sea, 
And you all may be rulers of the Queen's Navy! _ 

...even if it's limited to Tuesday and Thursday nights, that Lt(N) glass ceiling is just too limiting.   ;D


----------



## gwp (14 Sep 2012)

The reality is that in the PA Branch it is Lieutenants that keep having all the fun.   Because of the particular speciality Lieutenants often are employed or involved in activities above their pay grade.  Public Affairs policy (see DAOD 2008) directs that commanders have their PAO at the command table so as to keep them informed of the issues and opportunities.    Once one is promoted to LCdr as a PAO their are fewer (albiet but different) opportunities to affect the story.  The work changes to being a coordinator and supervisor unless there is no Lieutenant available.   Generally it is Lieutenants that are assigned to ships on deployment.  I.e the PAO in HMCS Vancouver is a reserve Lieutenant.


----------



## dapaterson (14 Sep 2012)

gwp said:
			
		

> The reality is that in the PA Branch it is Lieutenants that keep having all the fun.   Because of the particular speciality Lieutenants often are employed or involved in activities above their pay grade.  Public Affairs policy (see DAOD 2008) directs that commanders have their PAO at the command table so as to keep them informed of the issues and opportunities.    Once one is promoted to LCdr as a PAO their are fewer (albiet but different) opportunities to affect the story.  The work changes to being a coordinator and supervisor unless there is no Lieutenant available.   Generally it is Lieutenants that are assigned to ships on deployment.  I.e the PAO in HMCS Vancouver is a reserve Lieutenant.



PAOs are advisers, not part of the command team.  A very important distinction that some advisers (not just PAOs) seem to forget.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (14 Sep 2012)

gwp said:
			
		

> . . . . . .  Because of the particular speciality Lieutenants often are *employed or involved in activities above their pay grade*.  . . . . .   Once one is promoted to LCdr as a PAO their are fewer (albiet but different) *opportunities to affect the story*. . . . . .



Granted I served in an era when public affairs was not given the weight it should have been and it sometimes bit us in the ass.  However on those rare times when I did have interaction with PAFFOs, I often had the impression that they had an overly developed sense of self-importance.  Maybe it came from being (or wanting to be) the public face in the media.  As to being involved "in activities above their pay grade", well, they are there to tell a story, not direct or be actually involved in the things that they are talking about.  There were a number of times during my career when I was the junior officer sitting at the table with much senior ranks and being expected to provide equal (well, appropriate to my experience) input.  Was it a heady experience (_and granted it does give one a sense of self-importance_); of course it was, but I was always at the appropriate "pay grade".

Maybe it is just me being crotchety, but I think that while PAOs may be able to put "spin" on a story, their opportunities to "affect the story" (_my definition of which revolves more around actually directing/conducting events_) should be firmly limited.  Now, these differences may be simply semantics, but in an occupation whose primary weapons are words I would expect that at least the spelling be correct "their there" , albiet albeit".


----------



## Strike (14 Sep 2012)

Any PAO that finds themselves in front of the camera is likely doing something very wrong.  In fact, I would be wary of any PAO who seeks out the opportunity to do interviews.

Now that that is done, being a Res PAO is no more limiting in rank than any other Res position. Plain and simple. You can hold the Jr officer rank while in your unit but there is always the opportunity to get promoted and act as the Sr Area Res PAO later on.


----------



## bcguy604 (14 Sep 2012)

Thanks everyone for your input! 

I am not fixated on the idea of becoming a LCdr. However, I have many (potential) years left to serve and I like to know all the benefits / negatives involved before making such a major decision. 

I enjoy being an NCM, however, in the reserve world I feel less and less challenged. Somewhat like groundhog day - if that makes any sense. PAO has similar and complimentary challenges and skills that my civilian career offers and I believe it would be beneficial not only to me, but also the CF. My other option in Int. 

Regardless of the outcome, I love being int he Navy and look forward to what the future brings.


----------



## gwp (15 Sep 2012)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Maybe it is just me being crotchety, but I think that while PAOs may be able to put "spin" on a story, their opportunities to "affect the story" (_my definition of which revolves more around actually directing/conducting events_) should be firmly limited.  Now, these differences may be simply semantics, but in an occupation whose primary weapons are words I would expect that at least the spelling be correct "their there" , albiet albeit".



There is no spin in "Veritas"


----------



## gwp (15 Sep 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> PAOs are advisers, not part of the command team.  A very important distinction that some advisers (not just PAOs) seem to forget.



Quite correct as is the case for Legal, Finance, etc.  and to be precise

Commanders are required by DAOD to 
- Fully integrate PA into decision-making by:
 * establishing direct reporting for their most senior PAO (regardless of rank)
 * includng their PAO in key decision-making forums, committees and/or work groups; and
 * providing them with access to the information required to participate effectively in decision-making and provide PA advice on the impact of decisions.


----------



## Journeyman (15 Sep 2012)

Well, since we're critiquing literary skills.....





			
				bcguy604 said:
			
		

> PAO has similar and complimentary complementary challenges


Unless of course you actually meant complimentary, as in fawning, congratulatory, or even......encomiastical


----------



## BlueDuck (17 Jul 2014)

I have applied to the CF as a Public Affairs Officer, finished all of my processing, except for the WCPT.  I have spoken to my local recruiters about this, but there seems to be a problem with getting a "Passcode." The tester finally received authorization last week, but cannot actually access the testing. 

I'm concerned since I understand selections are this coming Wednesday.  I would hate to miss out on this opportunity because of a lack of access to this new requirement.  

Thank you for any insight.


----------



## BlueDuck (17 Jul 2014)

My apologies if this seems to fall under the "Read this first" section... but there seems to be some confusion at my CFRC.


----------



## Master Corporal Steven (18 Jul 2014)

Good day,

Stay in contact with your local Recruiting Center as they will be working on the issue.


----------



## BlueDuck (21 Jul 2014)

Just wondering if anyone else here is a current applicant?

Have you had any luck in writing the new required WCPT?  Still waiting for access here in Halifax.

Good luck and Cheers!


----------



## BlueDuck (21 Jul 2014)

Has this thread just been moved to be opened up from "Ask a CF Recruiter" to cut down on total posts in play? Or have I done something out of line?  

Thank you.  Trying to follow the rules.  :nod:


----------



## The_Falcon (21 Jul 2014)

BlueDuck said:
			
		

> I will take that as a directive not to ask this question to see if there are others with this issue. Understood. :nod:



No, if that were the case I would have locked it, this is merely about consolidation, since your first question was asked and answered by the appropriate person.


----------



## BlueDuck (21 Jul 2014)

Thank you, you can see I edited my post and was considering that... I originally thought it was linking back to the other forum which I know is closed to members posting on.  I appreciate you putting everything here.  Especially if there are others in the same boat wondering.  

Best!


----------



## megalife (2 Oct 2015)

Good Day,

I am in the process of SCP towards PAO (doesn't mean I will get it); I had 2 years experience as the Unit PAO; 10 years experience as a webmaster and PR guy for a financial institution; and I also ran my own web design company. I recently passed the Written Communication Proficiency Test that is a prerequisite for all wishing to become a PAO. I also have a BA in Interdisciplinary Studies. 

I now have an interview with the Wing PSO this Tuesday and the PAO on our base is in Kuwait. I have desperately tried to find the Public Affairs Handbook, but to no avail. Is there anyone here who might know what the role of the PAO is? I gave her an answer according to the work that I performed as the rep, but she said that there was more to it. Thank you in advance!


----------



## mariomike (2 Oct 2015)

megalife said:
			
		

> Is there anyone here who might know what the role of the PAO is?



These may help,

Public Affairs Officer  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/100806.0/nowap.html

Public Affairs Officer: Qualifications.
http://army.ca/forums/threads/104184.0/nowap.html

Looking for PAO, got questions regarding the occupation!!  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/48980.0;nowap

How to become a Public Affairs Officer  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/34450.0

etc, ...

Edit to add,

Public Affairs Officers provide sound communications advice at the tactical, operational and strategic levels, and act as key advisors to military commanders during domestic and international operations. 

Public Affairs Officers are advisors on all aspects of external and internal communications. They are skilled in developing, executing and evaluating communications approaches designed to inform the public of the Forces roles, activities and work.

The primary responsibilities of a Public Affairs Officer are to:
•Analyze and evaluate attitudes in the national and international media
•Contribute to policy development
•Gather and provide information internally & externally
•Communicate with journalists, special interest groups and individuals regarding Defence
http://www.forces.ca/en/job/publicaffairsofficer-63


----------



## Haggis (2 Oct 2015)

mariomike said:
			
		

> These may help,
> 
> Public Affairs Officer
> http://army.ca/forums/threads/100806.0/nowap.html
> ...



A good PAO will also know how to research the answer to a journalist's questions.

Your Google-fu is weak, young Megalife.


----------



## SupersonicMax (2 Oct 2015)

The role of the PAO?  Propaganda of course!!


----------



## The Bread Guy (2 Oct 2015)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> The role of the PAO?  Propaganda Message discipline of course!!


FTFY   It's still OK, though, because the media doesn't tell the _entire_ truth, either  >

All joking aside, Haggis & Mariomike bring up good points - if someone doing PR work (especially as a unit PAO) can't find out what government says PR work is about ....  :dunno:  

One more freebie for you to start off, my Info-machine padawan:  _"Communications Policy of the Government of Canada"_

Good hunting, Megalife, and good luck.


----------



## Towards_the_gap (2 Oct 2015)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pravda



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_commissar


----------



## Haggis (2 Oct 2015)

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pravda
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_commissar



Stop helping...  ;D


----------



## megalife (2 Oct 2015)

I was already in an interview with the PSO and I talked about all my experience as Unit PAO and apparently she did not think what I said sufficed. I have been to the Forces.ca site and used the information from there and that did not satisfy her query either. I have the PAO Handbook for NATO operations, but that is somewhat different than what role a PAO would have with the CO.


----------



## daftandbarmy (2 Oct 2015)

megalife said:
			
		

> I was already in an interview with the PSO and I talked about all my experience as Unit PAO and apparently she did not think what I said sufficed. I have been to the Forces.ca site and used the information from there and that did not satisfy her query either. I have the PAO Handbook for NATO operations, but that is somewhat different than what role a PAO would have with the CO.



Go to the RQMS.

Draw a new PSO.

Carry on as if normal.  ;D


----------



## BinRat55 (3 Oct 2015)

megalife said:
			
		

> Good Day,
> 
> I am in the process of SCP towards PAO (doesn't mean I will get it); I had 2 years experience as the Unit PAO; 10 years experience as a webmaster and PR guy for a financial institution; and I also ran my own web design company. I recently passed the Written Communication Proficiency Test that is a prerequisite for all wishing to become a PAO. I also have a BA in Interdisciplinary Studies.
> 
> I now have an interview with the Wing PSO this Tuesday and the PAO on our base is in Kuwait. I have desperately tried to find the Public Affairs Handbook, but to no avail. Is there anyone here who might know what the role of the PAO is? I gave her an answer according to the work that I performed as the rep, but she said that there was more to it. Thank you in advance!



I'm curious (just curious not s*** disturbing, I promise...)... your statement "I had 2 years experience as the Unit PAO" doesn't make sense to me for a few reasons...

- How does a Pte get to be a "unit PAO" for two years?
- How does a Pte who GETS to be a PAO for two years still not know what a PAO does?
- What exactly IS a "unit PAO"? I have only seen a PAO who reports to the JAG / B Comd...
- What is the BPSO doing exactly? They don't actually deny your application based on the fact that you don't know what someone does... how would a soldier go from being a sup tech to an engineer? I have NO idea what an engineer does... that's why we teach... hmmm...

Again, just out of curiosity - for my own benefit... I may have completely misread / misunderstood the direction of your post (which is ENTIRELY possible...)


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## The Bread Guy (3 Oct 2015)

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pravda


Which is Russian for "Truth", which is also the Branch motto for PA - hmmmmmmm ....


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## megalife (3 Oct 2015)

Haggis said:
			
		

> A good PAO will also know how to research the answer to a journalist's questions.
> 
> Your Google-fu is weak, young Megalife.



Hmmn... If by providence, I am chosen, I will be going to Gatineau to take a 6 month course to learn how to be a good PAO. Obviously, a unit rep does far less than what a true blue PAO does, otherwise, the Wing PSO would not have said that I need to research what the role of a PAO is.


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## megalife (3 Oct 2015)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> I'm curious (just curious not s*** disturbing, I promise...)... your statement "I had 2 years experience as the Unit PAO" doesn't make sense to me for a few reasons...
> 
> - How does a Pte get to be a "unit PAO" for two years?
> - How does a Pte who GETS to be a PAO for two years still not know what a PAO does?
> ...



I was a 2LT in the Artillery and I decided that I would rather be in the RCAF and I relinquished my commission and now am a Cpl. As unit rep, I did not communicate directly with the CO in regards are with directing, planning, and executing Military PA in support of Regiment/Squadron operations or other activities under their respective commander’s direction and responsibility. If I was on the DWAN I could post the prerequisites of someone applying for the Special Commissioning Programme one being a unit rep (I worked with the PAO at the Garrison). No Where did I claim that I was a PAO (otherwise why would I be seeking that trade), but a unit rep. Just because you may not have heard of a Unit Rep doesn't mean that it does not exist... I just wanted to get some assistance by someone who might help me out. I am as confused as you are that I need to know all the nuances to the minutiae about the role of the PAO if I seeking to take a course which will instruct me in just that...


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## mariomike (3 Oct 2015)

megalife said:
			
		

> If I was on the DWAN I could post the prerequisites of someone applying for the Special Commissioning Programme one being a unit rep (I worked with the PAO at the Garrison).



Some SCP info here,
https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3Aarmy.ca+Special+Commissioning+Programme&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=uAUQVqq4L4XU8geew7egAw&gws_rd=ssl#q=site:army.ca+SCP


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## The Bread Guy (3 Oct 2015)

Megalife:  Sounds like you did some public affairs work, but if your really ARE interested in working in Government of Canada communications, you're going to have to be more precise and consistent with words and messages.  For example ....


			
				megalife said:
			
		

> .... No Where Nowhere did I claim that I was a PAO...


I wonder how anyone would have thought that?  Oh, wait ....


			
				megalife said:
			
		

> .... I had 2 years experience as the Unit PAO ....


I'm honestly not writing this just to be an a**hole - just sharing some tidbits as someone who's spent a bit of time in federal government (non-military) comms.  Reporters will quite quickly pick up inconsistencies like the above (having dabbled a bit in that line of work, too).

Here's one more freebie, worth every cent you're paying for it    

One CAF definition says a PAO, _"manage(s) information and .... provide(s) advice to commanders"_ after you spend six months _"learn the best way to tell the story of what the men and women of the Canadian Forces are doing here in Canada and overseas"_.  

The plain-language bottom line (true for any government comms person):  _*your job will be to share messages with the public and media, and to provide input/advice to your bosses about crafting messages that can be shared*_.  I stand to be corrected or nuanced by anyone currently doing PAO work, but I comfortably stand by that as the job of _any_ government communicator at any level  of government.

I don't know how different that is from what you said, what you've read, or what the mysterious PSO had in mind, but it's an (admittedly cynical) start.

Best of luck in your hunt, Megalife - I hope you get what you're looking for, but realize there's more to it than first appearances or an initial taste might indicate.


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## Fishbone Jones (3 Oct 2015)

We have a PAO on the site. I'm sure she can answer all your questions when she sees this thread.


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## BinRat55 (4 Oct 2015)

megalife said:
			
		

> I was a 2LT in the Artillery and I decided that I would rather be in the RCAF and I relinquished my commission and now am a Cpl.



So you were an officer, dropped your commission, became a gunner / bdr, and now you want to be an officer again? I know a ton of people who would have absolutely cherished being an officer just once... not having flip-flopped all over the place...



			
				megalife said:
			
		

> As unit rep, I did not communicate directly with the CO in regards are with directing, planning, and executing Military PA in support of Regiment/Squadron operations or other activities under their respective commander’s direction and responsibility. If I was on the DWAN I could post the prerequisites of someone applying for the Special Commissioning Programme one being a unit rep ...



My Regt call this an "Adj" not a "Unit PAO Rep" You are describing the role of an adjutant



			
				megalife said:
			
		

> No Where did I claim that I was a PAO (otherwise why would I be seeking that trade), but a unit rep. Just because you may not have heard of a Unit Rep doesn't mean that it does not exist...



And nowhere did I say that you "claimed" to be a PAO, however, the proof is in the pudding ( or in this case, your OP...")



			
				megalife said:
			
		

> ... I had 2 years experience as the Unit PAO;
> Is there anyone here who might know what the role of the PAO is?



You see, I am a "Unit Harassment Advisor". By the very nature of having a unit appointment I HAVE to be a Harassment Advisor.

I am still not saying you aren't / weren't a "Unit PAO" or an assistant or whatever you were... but you can get where i'm coming from, no? As Milnews pointed out ( and I will amplify) your grammar and use needs a bit of work, but also the intent behind your words... get facts straight and say what you mean ...

My final statement ( I love the way Milnews puts it) worth ever cent you're paying for...

No self-respecting Arty soldier would refer to himself as a Pte / Cpl.


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## Baz (4 Oct 2015)

To be fair, he said he was a 2Lt in the Artillery and that he decided he wanted to be in the RCAF, and now he's a Cpl... the way it's written it's pretty clear he's a Cpl in the RCAF.

Unit PAO may be a bad choice of words, but it may not be his.  Also seems clear to me he had some secondary duty wrt public affairs,  probably wasn't trained for it, and probably not complete leadership for it.

It is important to write clearly... it's equally important to read correctly...


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## BinRat55 (4 Oct 2015)

Baz said:
			
		

> To be fair, he said he was a 2Lt in the Artillery and that he decided he wanted to be in the RCAF, and now he's a Cpl... the way it's written it's pretty clear he's a Cpl in the RCAF.
> 
> Unit PAO may be a bad choice of words, but it may not be his.  Also seems clear to me he had some secondary duty wrt public affairs,  probably wasn't trained for it, and probably not complete leadership for it.
> 
> It is important to write clearly... it's equally important to read correctly...



It's funny that I have no problems pointing out other peoples mistakes, but I hate people who point out mine! After all, I'm supposed to be perfect...

I will commence dining on a little crow. You are right - i DID misread - but in my defence I noted in an earlier post I could have misread... 



			
				BinRat55 said:
			
		

> I may have completely misread / misunderstood the direction of your post (which is ENTIRELY possible...)



It still confuses me though.


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## Weinie (13 Oct 2015)

The proper term that I believe he is referrring to is UPAR - Unit Public Affairs Representative, which replaced the old Unit Information Officer in 2009. It is defined as 

"An individual assigned to conduct public affairs activities as a secondary duty at the unit level, and who may or may not have elementary public affairs training."

I have a copy of the PA Handbook. It is a little dated, but will give you the gist of what you need. PM me if you want it, as the file is too large for here.

Cheers


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## Strike (19 Oct 2015)

Someone call?

BinRat55 -- In the CA the Adjt may play the role of the UPAR but that is not always the norm.  In the rest of the CAF (yes, there are two other elements) the UPAR is a secondary duty that is picked up by anyone with an interest.  It is very rarely, if ever, assigned to a non-willing person as that would just defeat the purpose.

And as for the OP's switch between unit PAO and PA Rep, give him a break.  Many times the unit staff are the ones referring to the UPAR as the unit PAO.  It may not be correct, but it happens.

Anyway, as for the rest of the posts, let's see if I can remember what was asked and fill in the blanks.

PSOs can be an odd breed.  The first PSO I dealt with seemed very uninterested in anything I had to say.  The second one I dealt with, several years later, was extremely gung ho (and we ended up working together again in Edmonton) and helped me get the ball rolling for when I came back from deployment.  My third dealing with the BPSO was with that first one and he hadn't changed.  The difference was that I came to the table with PERs, referrals and a portfolio of articles (not necessarily that I had written) showing my involvement with the trade within that past year so there was no way he could say I wasn't a 'good fit for the trade.'

So my suggestion to you would be to talk to the PAO where you are working right now and get that portfolio updated.  When you get back from Kuwait then make an appointment with your BPSO (who is probably a different person) and be ready.  You don't necessarily have to know the PA Handbook by heart. It's a reference book, which means even PAOs refer to it when they need to.  But knowing what the basics of the trade are is important.

One last thing - if your intention in going PAO is to get your name out there, then choose something else.  Any PAO who ends up in front of the camera or with their name in print on a byline is not doing their job properly.  Our job is not even to act as cheerleaders for the CAF, but to facilitate others telling our story, and the only time a PAO should be in front of the camera is when they are taking a bullet (figuratively of course) or it's the ealy minutes of a crisis situation and no one else is available.


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## mariomike (19 Oct 2015)

Perhaps these discussions rate a merge,

Public Affairs Officer  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/100806.0/nowap.html

Public Affairs Officer: Qualifications.
http://army.ca/forums/threads/104184.0/nowap.html

Looking for PAO, got questions regarding the occupation!!  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/48980.0;nowap

How to become a Public Affairs Officer  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/34450.0

The Role of the Public Affairs Officer  
http://milnet.ca/forums/threads/120657/post-1395470/topicseen.html#new


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## Eric Wang (30 Aug 2017)

Is anyone here a Public Affairs Officer? Or know one? Thank you


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## Weinie (30 Aug 2017)

I can pile on re this topic as well, if Strike is too busy. Ask away and I will try to answer your questions.


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## Loachman (30 Aug 2017)

Lumber said:
			
		

> You two are just too cute.



I'm cuter.

I have a better moustache, at least.



			
				Weinie said:
			
		

> I can pile on re this topic as well, if Strike is too busy. Ask away and I will t to answer your questions.



Go ahead. "Too busy" is rather a serious situation.


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## Weinie (30 Aug 2017)

Is there a reason that you put "too busy" in quotes Loachman?


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## Lumber (13 Aug 2020)

Not at work.

Anyone know the current degree requirements for public affairs officer? (Direct Entry Officer). Do you HAVE to have a degree in journalism or something related or would a degree in Business Admin work?


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## Weinie (13 Aug 2020)

The preferred degrees have been broadened from PR,marketing, journalism. To now include social sciences( psych, sociology. Etc). A Business degree is not a preferred degree. See the recruiting page for more info.

R u thinking of applying?


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## Lumber (13 Aug 2020)

Weinie said:
			
		

> The preferred degrees have been broadened from PR,marketing, journalism. To now include social sciences( psych, sociology. Etc). A Business degree is not a preferred degree. See the recruiting page for more info.
> 
> R u thinking of applying?



No, I'm 14 years in and happy with my trade.  

I'm asking for a friend who has a business admin degree I and don't have access atm to the personnel instructions or whatever they are that list the degree requirements for PAO.


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## Weinie (13 Aug 2020)

Happy to help with the query. Send me a PM with some contact info.


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## tomahawk6 (14 Aug 2020)

I think the career field is a great experience for those that want a civilian career. My dad escaped the drudgery of the Pentagon for the PAO side. The Army sent him to get a Masters degree at U of Wisconsin followed by becoming PAO of a major overseas command, to being commandant of the DoD school that trained enlisted/officers for the career field.


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## Weinie (14 Aug 2020)

I did the US PAO course in Fort Meade, Maryland in 96. Great time and I was very well treated by my US brothers/sisters-in-arms.


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