# Locking posts-parting comments



## Jarnhamar (20 Mar 2008)

I've just noticed something that may or may not be something to consider

I've noticed that when mods lock topics, sometimes it is a straight forward "this thread is being locked due to personal attacks". (for example) To the point.

Other times I've noticed that as the thread gets locked, the locking DS member gets in a final word. Either a comment,something reaffirming their argument or even taking a parting shot.

I don't think that's fair to get one more kick at the can before locking a thread. If a thread has reached a point where it needs to be shut down I think it should be locked sans any parting comments.
Like with members, if any further comments are to be made then the thread should be opened to everyone to allow counter comments.


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## Yrys (21 Mar 2008)

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> I don't think that's fair to get one more kick at the can before locking a thread. If a thread has reached a point where it needs to be shut down I think it should be locked sans any parting comments. Like with members, if any further comments are to be made then the thread should be opened to everyone to allow counter comments



Technically, non DS-member can pm a DS to ask a comment to be had add.

I did, and it was add. So it's seems more fairer to me that what you are depicting...


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## Jarnhamar (21 Mar 2008)

When a comment is added is the thread reopened for everyone or just that comment added?


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## Yrys (21 Mar 2008)

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> When a comment is added is the thread reopened for everyone or just that comment added?



In the case I was referring to, the locked was unlock a few hours after my comments was add. *Each lock is different.*

Sometimes you can see a mod or two adding comment to a locked thread, not always realising when they 
do that that it is locked (doesn't work the same way for them).

Why don't you read some of the others threads about that subject ?


Locking threads...

Army.ca Ideology -- what is it?

Locked but Not Locked Threads? 

Army.ca Directing Staff (Moderator) Guidelines

We Are Family


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## Michael OLeary (21 Mar 2008)

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> When a comment is added is the thread reopened for everyone or just that comment added?



That all depends on the nature and content of the comment, and how willing the Moderator is to referee furtherance of a thread that he/she or another staff has already found cause to lock.  After a few years of this type of event, as most of the Staff have been around that long, you start to realize which discussions are endless and unprofitable.  Add to that the frustration of dealing with certain issues over and over again.  It's easy to question the staff approach, but keep in mind the alternative is an impersonal "Staff" identifier and little or no opportunity to even ask for continuance even when you do think it is merited.


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## Mike Bobbitt (21 Mar 2008)

I'd also suggest that if it seems we're "lock heavy" at times, it may be because we prefer it to the alternative of deleting a thread all together, which potentially looses a lot of valuable information.

If you have a particular example in mind we can discuss it. It's possible there were factors in play that were not made obvious in the locking DS's closing comments.


Cheers
Mike


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## Kat Stevens (21 Mar 2008)

My only real beef with thread locking, is that frequently 3 or 4 DS get to pile on after the lock.


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## Mike Baker (21 Mar 2008)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> My only real beef with thread locking, is that frequently 3 or 4 DS get to pile on after the lock.


I have to agree with you on that. After a thread is locked, I think that, unless it is really important, there shouldn't be any other posts made. Other then that, I am behind the DS 100% 


Baker


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## Mike Bobbitt (21 Mar 2008)

The standing rule is that we don't post after a lock. I realize it happens at times... sometimes as an accident because we don't get a warning when we post to a locked topic (all the reply functions are still active for us so it's easy to miss). Sometimes it's to add a bit more, and sometimes I'll admit, it happens when it shouldn't. So: I agree. There have been times when we posted through a lock and shouldn't have. I believe they're the minority but they happen and it's something we're trying to put an end to.


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## X-mo-1979 (21 Mar 2008)

Mike Bobbitt said:
			
		

> The standing rule is that we don't post after a lock. I realize it happens at times... sometimes as an accident because we don't get a warning when we post to a locked topic (all the reply functions are still active for us so it's easy to miss). Sometimes it's to add a bit more, and sometimes I'll admit, it happens when it shouldn't. So: I agree. There have been times when we posted through a lock and shouldn't have. I believe they're the minority but they happen and it's something we're trying to put an end to.



Keep up the good work.

Now lock this topic and lets all post after and pick on KAT. ;D

Think there are some valid point brought up from both the users and mod's.

Maybe a Mod who hasnt played a larger role in the heated topic should lock it?Depending on who's online of course...

However I'm sure you guys got it handled.


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## muskrat89 (21 Mar 2008)

> Maybe a Mod who hasnt played a larger role in the heated topic should lock it?Depending on who's online of course...



That's exactly what we try to do.

Again - if someone thinks a Staff Member is piling on after a lock, or prematurely locking a topic or whatever, there are 2 appropriate courses of action:

1) Report to Mod  function
2) PM Mike

If it doesn't bother you enough to do either of those, then it shouldn't be popping up in a "complaint" thread. That's my $0.02


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## Bruce Monkhouse (21 Mar 2008)

Muskrat, just so its noted, "Flawed" brought this topic up with me last night in a private chat room.


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## muskrat89 (21 Mar 2008)

... and that's cool too, Bruce.

We just ALWAYS seem to have people piping up in this kind of thread, instead of taking action at the time. (not directed at you Kat)


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## Kat Stevens (21 Mar 2008)

The thought never crossed my mind.....


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## Greymatters (23 Mar 2008)

Mike Bobbitt said:
			
		

> The standing rule is that we don't post after a lock. I realize it happens at times... sometimes as an accident because we don't get a warning when we post to a locked topic (all the reply functions are still active for us so it's easy to miss). Sometimes it's to add a bit more, and sometimes I'll admit, it happens when it shouldn't. So: I agree. There have been times when we posted through a lock and shouldn't have. I believe they're the minority but they happen and it's something we're trying to put an end to.



Can we actually offer percentages or the number of times this occurs?  It doesnt seem to be such a continuous problem that a big issue needs to be made of it...


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## the 48th regulator (23 Mar 2008)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Can we actually offer percentages or the number of times this occurs?  It doesnt seem to be such a continuous problem that a big issue needs to be made of it...



I agree,

Can we quantify the amount of times this has happened?

dileas

tess


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## benny88 (23 Mar 2008)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Can we actually offer percentages or the number of times this occurs?  It doesnt seem to be such a continuous problem that a big issue needs to be made of it...



   Agreed that it's not a big enough problem to take major action over. More so it's a personal thing, most mods (rightly so) usually sum up the thread and clarify why it is being locked, and sometimes their opinions spill over into their administrative duties, which I can't blame them for. So instead of having a hullabaloo about it, I guess they just each need to make an effort when closing a thread not to take what may be viewed as a "parting shot." Kudos to them though, it is hard to remain aloof from what are often tough debates and they do it better than I could.


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## Greymatters (23 Mar 2008)

Most Mod final comments have never struck me as 'parting shots', usually more of an attempt at closing the thread with a neutrally witty comment (followed by an implied rimshot)...


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## Mike Bobbitt (24 Mar 2008)

The system doesn't differentiate a post made after a lock from one made before a lock. I suppose if I wanted to get really fancy I could tally up the number of locked threads where the last two posts were from moderators. Then compare that result to the overall total of locked posts. It wouldn't be a completely accurate count and probably a bear to figure out, but would be as close as we could come.

If I find I've run out of productive things to do I may give it a try.


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## the 48th regulator (24 Mar 2008)

Mike Bobbitt said:
			
		

> The system doesn't differentiate a post made after a lock from one made before a lock. I suppose if I wanted to get really fancy I could tally up the number of locked threads where the last two posts were from moderators. Then compare that result to the overall total of locked posts. It wouldn't be a completely accurate count and probably a bear to figure out, but would be as close as we could come.
> 
> If I find I've run out of productive things to do I may give it a try.



I think our concerns were directed at the author of the thread, and those that support him.

You deserve a break from all the shenanigans we mods cook up for you as it is! 

dileas

tess


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## Yrys (24 Mar 2008)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> You deserve a break from all the shenanigans we mods cook up for you as it is!



OR the mods need to take cooking lessons  > !

Seriously, thought, even if I'm sometime annoyed at some parting comments by a mod, that may or may not have realised that the tread was locked,
I tend to look at it as a "sidebenefit" of their volunteered job ...

Seems to me that all volunteering job should have a side benefit, however light it may be.


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## armyvern (24 Mar 2008)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> I agree,
> 
> Can we quantify the amount of times this has happened?
> 
> ...



When "quantifying", can we also break down the percentage of times that it was an intentional post after a lock vice an oversight on our part when not realizing the thread had been locked?

Mike, besides his programming skills, will have to be utilizing his ESP to figure this one out I fear. Is it really worth the effort? I'd say not.

Rather, I agree that *mods should refrain from intentionally entering a locked thread* to impart a "parting shot" when the recipients of that shot are precluded from responding by virtue of that lock; that, quite simply, is NOT playing nice. That should solve the problem.


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## George Wallace (24 Mar 2008)

In all fairness, when Topics are "LOCKED" and a Mod has posted after the Lock has been applied; just check the time of the post that was being made.  I have found myself guilty of posting after a Lock, as in the amount of time it was taking me to word a post, some other Moderator has compiled a post and applied a Lock, just as I was hitting the Post button.  On several occassions when a Topic has really been "HOT", there have been several Mods posting, one of which may have applied a LOCK.  The end result being, several Mods posting replies within seconds of a Topic being 'Locked'.  

Would the membership now want the Mods to go back and DELETE their posts, or leave them stand?





[PS.  I didn't post in a Topic that someone "LOCKED".   ;D ]


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## Yrys (24 Mar 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Would the membership now want the Mods to go back and DELETE their posts, or leave them stand?



For some, it would depend on which mod post or the subject or the nature of the post.

For me it would depend of the lapse of time in between the lock, the post, and the realisation there was a lock.
Also, did the mod choose a side in the post, did it had arguments, did it explain the reason(s) of the lock ?

If the delete option get choose, does it mean that mods can't posts past lock, while members might get a message post,
if a mod agree to it ?



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> I have found myself guilty of posting after a Lock, as in the amount of time it was taking me to word a post, some other Moderator has compiled a post and applied a Lock, just as I was hitting the Post button.



Would it improve things if as soon as a mod decide to lock a topic, s/he post "LOCK" then come back and modified the post to reflect why ?
Some mods explain in rather long post why, while some other people may be in the process of typing. So by accelerating the process,
would the frustrated people be reduced in number, and mods aware faster ?

... and the first mod to post in a locked topic get the job to police others mods  >


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## zipperhead_cop (24 Mar 2008)

How about a compromise?  If the topic is locked "cleanly" by the non-involved mod, then it is done.  If there are a cascade of mod posts after the topic is locked, thus barring the rest of us from replying to anything that was brought up then I would leave it up to the individual mod to either remove their own post, or be obliged to leave the topic open for rebuttal.  I think that would avoid the frustration some of us have felt from the perception of an "enforced one way conversation".


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## Jarnhamar (24 Mar 2008)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> How about a compromise?  If the topic is locked "cleanly" by the non-involved mod, then it is done.  If there are a cascade of mod posts after the topic is locked, thus barring the rest of us from replying to anything that was brought up then I would leave it up to the individual mod to either remove their own post, or be obliged to leave the topic open for rebuttal.  I think that would avoid the frustration some of us have felt from the perception of an "enforced one way conversation".



This is what I attempted to say with my previous thread about locking threads.


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## Greymatters (24 Mar 2008)

Shouldnt this thread be merged with the previous topic that was locked?  It sounds like the same discussion but just in a new direction...

Personally I look at the Mod getting in the last word as no worse than any other 'perk'; work hard, argue fair, put in long hours, and you too can get the same bonus as part of your work.  Considering who some of the people are that cause the lockups, better the Mods get the last word than some intellectual monkeys causing most of the problems...


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## the 48th regulator (24 Mar 2008)

Cleaned and merged.

Again, I reiterate, a quantification of the amount of times this has happened to those that have not would help the discussions.

Let us be candid here, it is impossible for Mike to electronically do this, but I challenge anyone to find a comparison where the post by Mods after locks, greatly overwhelms that are left alone.

You would agree that the post after the lock is very rare, and most times they were unintentional or valid.

Show me a thread, or for that matter, a unbiased slant of threads where Mods have abused their authority and posted after the fact.  If you can prove this is a rampant action, then I believe this is cause for debate.  If you find some that was done in error, or added to the lock, then that defeats your reason to start the thread.

However, if you have found valid reason that this is rampant, by all means show the locked threads.

dileas

tess


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## Greymatters (24 Mar 2008)

Fast work on that merge!


In the end, its safe to say the lock/post is being made much too big a deal of...


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## Kat Stevens (25 Mar 2008)

Seems to me the "did not!"  kids are making it a much bigger deal than the "did so!" kids.  But I'll shut up now, I've already made a huge fuss about this, evidently.


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## zipperhead_cop (25 Mar 2008)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> I've already made a huge fuss about this, evidently.



No you didn't.  


 ;D


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## Kat Stevens (25 Mar 2008)

Why, I oughta.....


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## Nfld Sapper (25 Mar 2008)




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## Blackadder1916 (25 Mar 2008)

Mike Bobbitt said:
			
		

> The system doesn't differentiate a post made after a lock from one made before a lock. I suppose if I wanted to get really fancy I could tally up the number of locked threads where the last two posts were from moderators. Then compare that result to the overall total of locked posts. It wouldn't be a completely accurate count and probably a bear to figure out, but would be as close as we could come.
> 
> If I find I've run out of productive things to do I may give it a try.



As I've had an otherwise nonproductive day, I've taken a half-assed approach to the question of how often.  A search using the word "LOCKED" and restricting it to 100 days yielded 5 pages on which I found 83 topics which had been locked.  An examination of those topics came up with the following numbers.

Number of topics with a posting by the locking DS after he had locked it. -  2 (one of these topics also had 2 add-on posts by non-DS)
Number of topics with a posting by another DS after it had been locked. -  8  (Two of these topics had multiple added-on posts, one with 4 posts, one with 2 posts)
Number of topics with a posting by a non-DS after it had been locked. -  2

(In my opinion) While some of the posts by the locking DS did contain comments that may have been viewed as a "shot across the bow" by someone with a very thin skin and a room temperature IQ, none were what I would consider a true "parting shot".  Most of the post-lock comments by other DS were usually additional (factual) information or an reiteration of DS frustration with the idiot of the moment.  Only one of the additional posts by other DS did not (again in my opinion) add anything of value to the discussion or could not reasonably be considered a true moderator comment.

The numbers quoted are definitely not accurate as the search did not produce a topic in which I posted a comment after the DS had locked it. (_It was temporarily opened following my request by PM._)  In reviewing that topic found the DS did not use the word "locked" in his post closing it down.  As this is only a half-assed analysis, I did an additional search using the phrase "Milnet.ca Staff" which had 93 locked topics; looked much like a total overlap with my "locked" search with just a few additions.  My numbers above probably won't change much.


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## Kat Stevens (25 Mar 2008)

Edited:  Original thought removed, I just really don't have the energy


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## Blackadder1916 (25 Mar 2008)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Ah, I see, so noticing something, and mentioning it in passing, grants me a tepid intelligence in your estimation.  Thanks awfully, other than my kids, nobody's assumed I'm an idiot all day, and i was starting to get a complex.



Actually, no.  When I began reading this topic, I agreed with your supposition about DS.  Now I think that it doesn't happen as often as I previously thought.
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/72198/post-690777.html#msg690777


> My only real beef with thread locking, is that frequently 3 or 4 DS get to pile on after the lock.



More than once I thought that the posting to a locked thread by DS was "bad form" even if it did not include a dig at someone with whom they had been jousting.  I still think so.  Even an eloquent "reiteration of DS frustration" could be considered just "+1" after a fellow DS has closed the thread.  My previous post included only my opinion of comments made in the locked threads I reviewed and were not aimed at any specific individuals.  My review was focused mainly on the jist of the post-locking comments and I did not review those threads in their entirety to see all who were involved.  But of those that I followed in the normal course of visiting this site, many seemed to be in conjunction with threads heavily inundated with posts from seemingly young, inexperienced, brash individuals who may have just enough education to make them think they know something important.  Unfortunately some of these come from (are still attending) an institute of higher learning heavily subsidized by the federal government.

Though it has been explained that DS are not hampered by the lock when posting into a locked thread, do they not encounter the notice that a post (or X number of posts) have been made while they were drafting their latest.  I know I always stop and read what was added before I hit the post button again (or decide that I was too slow, my post unnecessary or in need of editing).  Perhaps the DS, on deciding that they must continue, should acknowledge the lock in place with a statement in their post.


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## George Wallace (25 Mar 2008)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Though it has been explained that DS are not hampered by the lock when posting into a locked thread, do they not encounter the notice that a post (or X number of posts) have been made while they were drafting their latest.  I know I always stop and read what was added before I hit the post button again (or decide that I was too slow, my post unnecessary or in need of editing).  Perhaps the DS, on deciding that they must continue, should acknowledge the lock in place with a statement in their post.



Often the DS have more than one window open, and perhaps another computer as well.  Often after doing a Spell Check, I hit "POST" and flip to another screen.  I often have to go back and hit Post again, as while I was posting, several others were also and beat me to the punch.  Last night I hit "Post" at least three times on one of my posts.  I found one still sitting awaiting, fifteen minutes after I hit "Post" and switched to another screen due to just that fact.  We try to keep it "honest" as best we can, but sometimes circumstances don't permit.


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## Kat Stevens (25 Mar 2008)

Perhaps "frequently" was an incorrect way to put it, in retrospect.  Let's just say that it has been done before, and some with a little vitriol behind them.  I seem to come off as some kind of malcontent at times, I guess, purely not my intent.  If I see something, I sometimes feel the need to comment, consequences be buggered.  Anyone who served with me will verify that, it's the reason I was a Cpl for life.


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## Fishbone Jones (25 Mar 2008)

I can't believe this thing is stil running. If there's something you don't like, hit the 'Report to Mod' button for cripes sake. We'll look at it and take care of it.

I guess this is just turning into another of those 'damn Mod threads'. If I hadn't posted this and joined the fray, it'd be locked right now.


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## Michael OLeary (25 Mar 2008)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> As I've had an otherwise nonproductive day, I've taken a half-assed approach to the question of how often.  A search using the word "LOCKED" and restricting it to 100 days yielded 5 pages on which I found 83 topics which had been locked.  An examination of those topics came up with the following numbers.
> 
> Number of topics with a posting by the locking DS after he had locked it. -  2 (one of these topics also had 2 add-on posts by non-DS)
> Number of topics with a posting by another DS after it had been locked. -  8  (Two of these topics had multiple added-on posts, one with 4 posts, one with 2 posts)
> Number of topics with a posting by a non-DS after it had been locked. -  2



So, 10, maybe 15, threads given the unscientific nature of the stats above?  Call it 15.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?action=stats


> Average topics per day:  	27.96



100 days = 2796 new topics during the same time frame (not counting those that had been started before the "0 day" point.

Possibly 15 locks with follow-on staff posts out of 2796 possible threads - *0.54 %*

Shall we next examine who the presumed targets of the staff vitriol were, to see if there are trends there that should be brought to light and debated as well, or are we preuming these were all just random acts of violence by the staff?


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## Pikache (25 Mar 2008)

This thread is going nowhere, and I see nothing substantial to warrant further discussion.

If you want to add something relevant to discussion at hand, PM me and I will reconsider opening this thread again.

Locked

-The Army.ca Staff


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