# Minister of Defence



## highlandranger (16 Mar 2006)

Thanks


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## Michael Dorosh (16 Mar 2006)

Policy is set by civilians, not soldiers.  Ex-soldiers have not done well as MD&M/MND - Col. Sam Hughes, Col. Ralston, Gen. McNaughton. The best ones have been civilians.


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## Trinity (16 Mar 2006)

Whats up with all these polls?

Slow down...  take some time to acclimatize to the site.

Learn what we're all about here. 

And if you are going to do a poll...  Post more
than one word in your thread.  How about more info other 
than just "Thanks."


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## TheNomad (20 Mar 2006)

What about the option of:

"It does not matter if he/she has served in uniform or not."?


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## Scoobie Newbie (20 Mar 2006)

I used to believe that a military member with lots of TI would be the way to go until recently.  Now I realize that if they aren't careful a lot of their old thinking could be brought back propping up the dwindling dino's.


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## QV (20 Mar 2006)

CFL said:
			
		

> I used to believe that a military member with lots of TI would be the way to go until recently.  Now I realize that if they aren't careful a lot of their old thinking could be brought back propping up the dwindling dino's.



Good point, I wish I could change my answer now.


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## Brad Sallows (21 Mar 2006)

The ground changes too quickly in defence matters.  Unless the candidate is recently retired fresh out of a hot operator's seat in NDHQ or a recent graduate of something like the NSSC, long-term service, particularly if it wasn't in a particularly joint milieu, may be more of a liability than an asset.


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## Thompson_JM (21 Mar 2006)

that was the statement a co-worker had stated to me today... he said that one of the reasons the new MND has been so quiet lately is because he has realized how different the CF is now compared to when he was in. my co-worker also stated that the MND probabbly feels as if he is in over his head. Im not totally sure about that, but it does seem prudent that with the changing scope of war these days, appointing MND's who were generals in the Cold War, would probabbly not be the most progressive idea.

cheers


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## Scoobie Newbie (21 Mar 2006)

your co workers credentials are...?


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## Scoobie Newbie (22 Mar 2006)

So I hear he was in Shilo today.  Probably why the sent me to the range.  Anyone know what he did here 'cause they didn't even announce his visit.


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## Thompson_JM (22 Mar 2006)

CFL said:
			
		

> your co workers credentials are...?



Weapons Tech MCpl, with some Decent TI
Spent quite a few years working in NDHQ.... 

I wouldnt say he was the all knowing expert, but rather it was an interesting perspective to consider. 

I was really just wondering if there was any Merit to it. since everyone has opinions.. some just have a little more weight behind em.

Cheers


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## TCBF (22 Mar 2006)

"Policy is set by civilians, not soldiers.  Ex-soldiers have not done well as MD&M/MND - Col. Sam Hughes, Col. Ralston, Gen. McNaughton. The best ones have been civilians."

What was wrong with Barney Danson (QOR Normandy - wounded)?

Eric Neilson (RCAF pilot, WW2)?

Col Ralston?

Tom


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## TCBF (22 Mar 2006)

How about "Do Lawyers make the best justice ministers"?

Or "Do Doctors make the best health ministers"?

If we ban military from MND, lets get the bloody lawyers out of the justice porfolio too, right?


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## Unknown C/S (22 Mar 2006)

I am unclear as to the reason for all the criticism directed at the MND at this point. He is a politician. And he was a soldier. For some reason people confuse the two. 
He works the political side. period. The fact that he has first hand knowledge of the military AND knows how soldiers feel is a major advantage.
I keep reading about the fact that he is a dinosaur, a throw back from the cold war era. That he is not up to speed on the equipment being issued. Should he be aware, for example, if the troops in "theatre" are using "silva" compasses or another brand? Not his job...... I do not believe these barbs mean anything. MND is accountable to govt. The CDS calls the shots for the military. Has Gordon O'Connor closed any bases? reduced the size of the forces? cancelled projects? Or worst of all, issue everyone new deu uniforms (because the change of colour will raise moral)
Let's give the guy a chance

(Just my opinion)

Could be worse, apparently the Hellyer years were not what we thought, take a look..............

http://www.ufobc.ca/Beyond/paulhellyer.htm

Maybe smoking something?????


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## Scoobie Newbie (23 Mar 2006)

Actually the troops choose the green over the tan.
Yes I believe its his job to know if the kit sucks or not and what the "basic" load of a member on patrol would be.
He has just enough out dated knowledge to be dangerous.


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## TCBF (23 Mar 2006)

Insert Quote
"Actually the troops choose the green over the tan.
Yes I believe its his job to know if the kit sucks or not and what the "basic" load of a member on patrol would be.
He has just enough out dated knowledge to be dangerous"

- Bullsh_t.  Pure and Simple Bullsh_t.  That is the view of the Civilian Snivel Servants who want to roll over the minister Bob Fowler style and snow him and the CDS into ineffectiveness. They FEAR and LOATHE Ministers who speak from experience!  As do a lot of DMs.

Do you think a lawyer is too much of a dinosaur to be Minister of Justice?
Do you think a doctor is too much of a dinosaur to be Minister of Health?
Do you think a businessman is too much of a dinosaur to be Minister of Finance?
Do you think a farmer is too much of a dinosaur to be Minister of Agriculture?

Well? 






I would not judge Mr. Hellyer's time as MND by the UFO thing.:

 reorganizing Canada's defence with vision coupled with respect for traditional values, has won the admiration and respect of foes and the permanent confidence of friends--our Minister of National Defence, The Honourable Paul Hellyer. 

MR. HELLYER: 

I am indeed honoured that The Empire Club should invite me to this distinguished platform again. I should like to take advantage of the opportunity thus provided to follow a suggestion made by several members of The Empire Club that I repeat for the benefit of a wider, audience, some of the basic arguments in favour of integration of our armed forces and also to give a brief summary of our progress to date in that direction. To put the question in context, some background information may be helpful. When Mr. Cardin and I accepted responsibility for the Department of National Defence we sat down to consider what course we should follow. We soon came to the conclusion that there were three steps we should take. First, to _. bring the past up to the present. More specifically, I mean to arrange for the stockpiling of warheads for the weapons systems already acquired for our armed forces. Second, to review the major procurement programmes outstanding and, in particular, what effect those programmes might have on future defence policy. Third, to work out a long-range defence policy for Canada. 

In order to obtain the warheads for our weapons systems it was necessary to sign an inter-governmental agreement between Canada and the U.S. to permit the stockpiling of warheads for use by Canadian forces in case of emergency. It was also necessary to sign technical agreements between forces relating to the storage, safety and other technical arrangements. Finally, it was necessary to complete the administrative arrangements, including the construction of special storage for the warheads and training of our forces. 

As you know, three of the four weapons systems are now operational. The Bomarc missile squadrons--part of the continental anti-bomber defences--have been operational for a year. The CF-104 Starfighters in the nuclear strike role have been operational for some months. More recently, the Honest John surface-to-surface missile battery with our brigade in Germany passed its final test and the fourth system, the Genie air-to-air rocket for our air defence interceptors, will be available shortly. Canada then will be discharging, in full, those obligations undertaken for us in the name of Canada. 

In our review of procurement policy, we considered all factors including technical, budgetary, and industrial but our main concern was the effect on future policy which would result from proceeding with existing plans. In some cases we decided to proceed. We placed an order for three "O" class submarines which are desperately needed for training and which also have some operational capability. The first of these will be commissioned this fall. We ordered a limited number of dual place Starfighters needed for safety in checking out our aircrews. These too have an operational capability. 

On the other hand, we decided not to procure more single-seater CF-104's for the strike role because of the limitation this would place on future policy. We cancelled the general purpose frigate construction programme for the same reason, in addition to technical and budgetary considerations. The development of the Bobcat armoured personnel carrier was cancelled because, after ten years, we had not produced a perfected vehicle and because a successful carrier, the American M113 which was already in service in many parts of the world and for which there exists first-class world-wide logistic support, was available to us at least a year sooner and at about one-half the price per vehicle. As our brigade in Europe had for too long been exposed unprotected to possible mechanized attack, the decision taken was the only one which common sense could dictate. On the other hand, we decided to proceed with the development of an experimental hydrofoil vessel for the Navy since in this field our development is still ahead of others who are interested and the advantages of developing an ocean-going hydrofoil are sufficient to justify the risk involved. 

Concurrently with the consideration of these first two action areas, we were laying the groundwork for number three. Studies were conducted in the Defence Department on a wide variety of subjects as background for the preparation of a long-range defence policy for Canada. The studies included a review of Canada's defence policy, a review of technological changes in the past decade, an assessment of the world strategic situation, an estimate of likely weapons development in the next decade, an educated guess as to likely changes in world politics and the balance of power, and other factors bearing on future policy and plans. By the fall of 1963 these were completed and the task of writing a policy began. The several government departments interested in defence were involved in the preparation of the White Paper and, in particular, the Department of External Affairs was consulted throughout in order that the two arms of government, defence and external policy, would be working in complete harmony, as indeed they must."

Edit: From: http://www.empireclubfoundation.com/details.asp?SpeechID=1205&FT=yes

Canada's Defence Reorganization  

Speaker Hellyer, The Honourable Paul T.    Minister of National Defence  
Date 18 Feb 1965 
Introduced by: Hilborn, Lt. Col. Robert H.   President, The Empire Club of Canada 
Published in: The Empire Club of Canada Speeches 1964-1965 (Toronto, Canada: The Empire Club Foundation, 1965) pp. 217-231

Index Term(s):  Canada - Armed forces     Canada - Defences      
Full Text 
FEBRUARY 18,1965 
Canada's Defence Reorganization
AN ADDRESS BY The Honourable Paul T. Hellyer P.C., M.P., MINISTER OF NATIONAL DEFENCE
CHAIRMAN, The President, Lt. Col. Robert H. Hilborn


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## Unknown C/S (23 Mar 2006)

CFL said:
			
		

> Actually the troops choose the green over the tan.
> Yes I believe its his job to know if the kit sucks or not and what the "basic" load of a member on patrol would be.
> He has just enough out dated knowledge to be dangerous.



What? You expect the MND to continually receive updated: unit bugout kit lists, locker layout, Veh standard/combat load list etc. etc. He would have to have a substantial Jr General binder. Tour binder, Dom Ops binder and that's just the army. Ships checklists, boarding party kit..........you get the point surely?
And then you expect him to man the DND complaint hotline?????? c'mon man think about it. I will argue that the if home unit  Bde Comd visits the troops overseas he won't have that much info.

Please justify why:
He has just enough out dated Knowledge to be dangerous????


Tom,

That was more of a tongue in cheek look at the former MND. I blame it on his age. (even I find myself standing in my underwear wondering if I am getting up or going to bed lately)  ;D


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## TCBF (23 Mar 2006)

"That was more of a tongue in cheek look at the former MND. I blame it on his age. (even I find myself standing in my underwear wondering if I am getting up or going to bed lately) "

- Right.  Understood on all counts (Me Too!  ;D), but - not a lot of balanced views coming out on how he did on his shift as MND.  There was more to those years than just Unifcation.

Tom


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## Scoobie Newbie (23 Mar 2006)

WRT your examples no I don't think they couldn't be good in minister jobs/judges because they have remaind current.  He has not just left his position in the military to become the MND he has been out of the loop for sometime now.  
I would hope that he would ask the CDS or someone in the military what we currently use so as to not make himself sound foolish when he makes statements about what our current load is.
He is dangerous because from all indications he is operating on thinking when he was in the military and has not yet realized that the situation as it were in the world and in defence has radically changed from what he knew.


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## Michael OLeary (23 Mar 2006)

Just out of curiosity, in order of priority in relation to such things as state of ships, Seakings, aircraft, manning issues, infrastructure, capital equipment programs, etc., etc., etc., (not to mention the day-to-day business that will cross his desk) exactly where would you put the briefing ensuring that he was up to date on small arms basic loads?


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## Scoobie Newbie (23 Mar 2006)

Um I suppose when the issue of soldiers buying chest rigs to hold more stuff is when I would ask my military people what the soldier is carrying now a days prior to talking to the press.


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## Unknown C/S (23 Mar 2006)

CFL said:
			
		

> WRT your examples no I don't think they couldn't be good in minister jobs/judges because they have remaind current.  He has not just left his position in the military to become the MND he has been out of the loop for sometime now.
> I would hope that he would ask the CDS or someone in the military what we currently use so as to not make himself sound foolish when he makes statements about what our current load is.




1) Again He is a civilian and does not try to pretend he is military. He is a politcian. His military background gives him the advantage of being sympathetic to the troops and the soldiers mindset.
Unless you know something the rest of us don't, he has not been attending o'groups after retirement
He certainly would not have access to changes or information that was sensitive nor should anyone think that he he should.
As MND more than likely he has been brought up to speed on relevant issues. For years now military pers complained about the "civvies" holding the MND post. Now you guys get a former soldier and right away the complaints start, generally picking fly s*&% out of pepper. I'm left to wonder what did some of you expect? O'Conner to show up on day one in uniform and take command of overseas ops?

2) Because a Sect Comd or platoon leader complains they don't have the right kit, should the MND correct the situation personally? History will bear witness to the fact that regardless of the conflict troops will always gripe about kit. sometimes it is justified, sometimes not.
(I can just imagine one of Hadrian's soldiers complaining that the elephant poop shovels were a bad design
It would be impossible for DND to have warehouses full of specialized kit for each specific operation. Even if they did have the kit that some are saying is required, If the next mission (for example) found the troops in the jungles of Bornio then the troops would complain about the amount of mags they were forced to carry in a humid, wet overgrown jungle environment and the space would have been better used fo extra water......................
Troops complain that's their right. No need to action everything Nor for the MND to get involved.

Did you stop to think that you might be targeting the wrong person? With money flowing the way it seems, commanders in situ can request a "local purchase" of critical kit.  Or do you Expect Gordon O'Conner to jump in his car and pick those items up? (give me 200 chest rigg'n thingy's uhm...1000 gel insoles and oh yeah 10,000 timmy's travel mugs)
By the way those South African Recce vehicles showed up out of the blue and not a whisper of "good job"


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## rifleman (23 Mar 2006)

I guess a response like, "why are the troops carrying magazines in combat? I get my playboys delivered at home" would have been a better response


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## Scoobie Newbie (23 Mar 2006)

No.  I would expect that prior  to opening his mouth on the record he would familarize himself with the basics of what he is talking about.  Christ some people here believe is ammo count was reflected by the FN.


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## scoutfinch (23 Mar 2006)

Unknown C/S said:
			
		

> 1) Again He is a civilian and does not try to pretend he is military. He is a politcian. His military background gives him the advantage of being sympathetic to the troops and the soldiers mindset.
> Unless you know something the rest of us don't, he has not been attending o'groups after retirement



In fact, he was a highly paid lobbyist for defence contractors in Ottawa so I expect he has (or should have) a fairly in-depth knowledge of current CF issues.


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## Good2Golf (23 Mar 2006)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Just out of curiosity, in order of priority in relation to such things as state of ships, Seakings, aircraft, manning issues, infrastructure, capital equipment programs, etc., etc., etc., (not to mention the day-to-day business that will cross his desk) exactly where would you put the briefing ensuring that he was up to date on small arms basic loads?



Mike, that info (mags and basic wpns load) should have been in his prep BN....although is sounds suspiciously like someone from DLR may have written the BN..."The Tac Vest is absolutely fine and the clothing systems is made for all soldiers, not just infanteers, so the pockets are just fine!"  :

Comparing my AR with a set of combats I got on initial issue at BOTC, the front (C1 mag) pockets are exactly the same size!  Am I surprized?  No.

Cheers,
Duey


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## rifleman (23 Mar 2006)

I would like to know where the reference is to where the basic load has changed to 300 rounds (in magazines)?


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## Unknown C/S (23 Mar 2006)

scoutfinch said:
			
		

> In fact, he was a highly paid lobbyist for defence contractors in Ottawa so I expect he has (or should have) a fairly in-depth knowledge of current CF issues.


 Scout

Scout,
Well since you are in the military you should have a fairly in-depth knowledge of current C.F issues,

Then you should be able to tell us: which wheels are chains fitted on the Coyote for winter ops? Or what are the dimensions of a vehicle Cam net? Maybe, you know how long a Sea king can stay on station with a half load of fuel?

You people expect the MND to be able to pull this info out of thin air. He is the Minister. In case it did not occur to you, this line of thinking means that he should be able to ryhme off the CF 18 wheel supplier, what type of rope is used to tie up Halifax class frigates, how many horse power the CF buses have, and what pressure the steam heating plant in CFB Trenton operates at  :

Yes he was a lobbyist. Because he was working with Airbus Industries and assisting them in the Tender requirements and walking them through the DND procurement proceedure, does not mean he knows about the latest ammo pouches or brand of lypsil some of the troops are carrying in Kandahar.
(given the fact that Inf, Armd, Eng, Arty and various support trades are "in theatre" and none has the identical issue)

His world is a little larger than cbt boots and a rifle or the problems with a canteen drinking tube. (He is also briefed and preped by assistants and aids prior to media interviews) 

So I guess according to most of you, If he does not know the lenght of combat boots laces, fire him.

I hope you hold the next person to your self administered high standard.


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## scoutfinch (23 Mar 2006)

To be fair, I was referring to macro-level issues.  

Your point is well taken on the micro level issues to which I was not referring.  

My apologies for the lack of clarity in my post.


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## Unknown C/S (23 Mar 2006)

scout

Understood. thanks for clarifying.


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## Unknown C/S (23 Mar 2006)

CFL said:
			
		

> from all indications he is operating on thinking when he was in the military and has not yet realized that the situation as it were in the world and in defence has radically changed from what he knew.



I did not see the press release stating that he was sending troops back to Germany to defend the Fulda gap.............
Or buying CF 104's, developing a nuclear arsenal, re-instating battle dress and allowing smoking in DND offices.
And I think if he was continually ranting about "damn Commies" we would have heard about it.

Please give me an example of an "indication" 

And how did you get into his inner circle and made aware of what he knew? (did you work for him and are aware of his methods?)


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## Good2Golf (23 Mar 2006)

Unknown C/S said:
			
		

> Scout
> 
> Scout,
> Well since you are in the military you should have a fairly in-depth knowledge of current C.F issues,
> ...



.....however, when the MND is specifically addressing an issue regarding alleged shortcomings in equipment systems, he should be properly informed about the issue, hence my comment to Michael about the BN.  

If there were a problem with CF188's wheels, then yes, I would assume the minister would be properly informed to make a proper comment to the press if so asked... e.g. "...while contractor XXX has furnished wheels for the Hornet in the past, they were no longer able to do so and thus we have found a new supplier."  Same if there were issues with the hawsers used to tie up CPFs...or if there were issues with the steam plant at 8 Wing, Trenton (not CFB Trenton anymore.  )

Furthermore, I do not think that basic weapon loads and current issues associated with ammunition carriage is an austere topic given that we have thousands of soldiers in a theatre and there have been UCRs put in on the TV and its shortcomings have been noted in numerous PORs.

Cheers,
Duey


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## Scoobie Newbie (23 Mar 2006)

His misinformed comment on ammo loads is an indication he is referring to what he carried when he was in not now.  A civie would have no idea what the ammo load is and I would hope would ask someone in the know what it was PRIOR to making a statement on said issue.
His thinking on the JTF is reminiscent of those in the 70's and 80's that saw the SF community as unnecessary and had a hate on for them because they felt they were using up valuable assets better left to the regular army.
His comments on the use of grenades to be treated as land mines is also ridiculous and seems to come from a politician and not a man with many years in the service.


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## RangerRay (23 Mar 2006)

CFL said:
			
		

> Actually the troops choose the green over the tan.



I'm pretty sure that happened when I was in...I don't recall anyone asking my opinion about that at the time.


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## Unknown C/S (23 Mar 2006)

CFL said:
			
		

> His misinformed comment on ammo loads is an indication he is referring to what he carried when he was in not now.  A civie would have no idea what the ammo load is and I would hope would ask someone in the know what it was PRIOR to making a statement on said issue.
> His thinking on the JTF is reminiscent of those in the 70's and 80's that saw the SF community as unnecessary and had a hate on for them because they felt they were using up valuable assets better left to the regular army.
> His comments on the use of grenades to be treated as land mines is also ridiculous and seems to come from a politician and not a man with many years in the service.



Please give me a link to the ammo statement. (any news source) I am willing to concede that he should have bee briefed. (unless it was taken out of context)

As Far as I know his statements on JTF were to have them moved. This was in keeping with his constituants demands. Most military pers are aware of how they train. there were (and are) many complaints from residents around their training area (O'Connors riding) One cannot deny there is a "bit" of a cavalier attitude with the unit and it has caused a lot of friction in the area. DND has actually tried to buy out farmers to settle the ongoing battle. I cannot find a statemnt where he wanted them disbanded.

The grenade issue is a touchy one and could be very complicated. By listing them with landmines is a step towards removing them from the battlefield (handy booby trap tool) Of course there are pro's and con's to the issue. I see it as Mr. O'Connor being a forward thinker, (kind of flies in the face of a cold war mentality, does it not?)
I hate to say it but I'm on the fence with that one. first hand experience tells me that there is no place in the world for land mines (more innocents are killed by them than combatants) I would need to know the mechanics of withdrawing hand grenades.
(of course the hand grenade issue was brought up whene he was the opposition. I don't think we want to drag up all politicians statements while in opposition and later found themselves in power. too many contradictions)


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## old medic (23 Mar 2006)

Unknown C/S said:
			
		

> (of course the hand grenade issue was brought up whene he was the opposition. I don't think we want to drag up all politicians statements while in opposition and later found themselves in power. too many contradictions)



I disagree.

Politicians must be accountable for their words. Being in opposition does not give the freedom 
to make any silly statement, and then not have those statements examined once in power.


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## Unknown C/S (23 Mar 2006)

old medic said:
			
		

> I disagree.
> 
> Politicians must be accountable for their words. Being in opposition does not give the freedom
> to make any silly statement, and then not have those statements examined once in power.



In a perfect world maybe. Welcome to the world of politics. (guess it smarts when reality hits you in the face)

I don't know if you were around at the time................Joe Clark's consertive govt lost power in a non confidence vote over a gas tax,
Liberals came to power and brought in.............you guessed it, a gas tax


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## old medic (23 Mar 2006)

Unknown C/S said:
			
		

> In a perfect world maybe. Welcome to the world of politics. (guess it smarts when reality hits you in the face)
> 
> I don't know if you were around at the time................Joe Clark's consertive govt lost power in a non confidence vote over a gas tax,
> Liberals came to power and brought in.............you guessed it, a gas tax



I think you just proved my point.  
You examined their no gas tax statement.


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## SweetNavyJustice (23 Mar 2006)

I think it's good that the new MOD has previous experience in the CF.  

Remember this, as the Minister he's mainly responsible to being government policy to the department, and move our issues to the house of commons.  The Minister is largely a figure head in politics.  It is the deputy ministers who "steer" the operation or in our case the CDS.  

Having a Minister responsible for us who has experience means that he knows some of our background issues, and knows the lingo to communicate effectively both with us, and within government.  Some have said that he will bring old understandings.  I don't agree with this.  As I mentioned previously.  The Minister doesn't "work" in DND or the CF, he (or she) is simply our face in parliament.


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## Hunter (23 Mar 2006)

Unknown C/S said:
			
		

> Please give me a link to the ammo statement. (any news source) I am willing to concede that he should have bee briefed. (unless it was taken out of context)



I heard him on CFRA Monday morning and posted a question about it here:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/41208/post-354037.html

I don't remember his exact words, that each magazine holds 20 rounds, and 10 magazines means the soldier is carrying 200 rounds.  He also said that he couldn't imagine a situation where they would need to carry that much ammunition.  I thought it was a major gaffe, and I think he's lucky the media hasn't focused on it.  It reminds me of Chretien's backwards helmet incident.

Besides the incorrect statements about ammo loads, I thought his comment that the troops shouldn't need to carry that much ammunition were disturbing.  Imagine if that Shura where Capt. Greene got attacked had been a full-on ambush, and they had to fight their way out.  

A couple of questions for the guys who are over/have been in Afghanistan:

My understanding of the policy in Afghanistan is that if kit looks Canadian or reasonably Canadian then it's ok, is that correct? I sure hope this doesn't result in an 'issued kit only' ministerial directive or something like that.  

I heard Minister O'Connor in a follow-up interview say that nobody had mentioned problems with the kit to him when he was on the ground there.  Did he hold any meetings with troops when he was there, like a CO's hour or anything like that?   What kind of contact did the troops have with the Prime Minister or Defence Minister?  

Did he really expect anyone to speak frankly about kit deficiencies with the Minister of Defence in front of the national media?  Every year at Stalwart Guardian we get the pep talk about what to say and how to say it if the media is around, and I imagine you guys probably get a lot more media relations training.  And I imagine that in his career he must have given a few talks on what to say when the media is around.  I'm sure he knows the drill, so I can't imagine why he was surprised.


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## Unknown C/S (23 Mar 2006)

old medic said:
			
		

> I think you just proved my point.
> You examined their no gas tax statement.



And did you get my point?

This happens all the time. Now you are prepared to crucify the present MND for using this approach. Or is it because of his background? Being ex military he should be helds to a higher standard than say; Art Eggelton who was responsible for military pers shoveling sidewalks (yet no one complained.) Then he was ousted for his mis-placed ethics.


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## GO!!! (23 Mar 2006)

The new MND has made a number of comments in recent months indicating he is out of touch with military realities;

1) "JTF Killers" should be moved to a military base where they might be better "controlled"

2) "Move JTF to Gander"

3) "Use of 40mm Grenade Launcher constitutes violation of Ottawa accord"

This is not what we need in an MND, someone with a hate on for SF, a hostility for weapons he is unfamiliar with, and a penchant for grabbing the spotlight - at all costs.

Finally, he has made statements to the effect of "what do you need that much ammo for?", as has been alluded to here. Either he is a military expert, well acquainted with these issues, or he is'nt. Comments like the four above tell me that he is not a military expert or a savvy federal politician.


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## Good2Golf (24 Mar 2006)

Unknown C/S said:
			
		

> And did you get my point?
> 
> This happens all the time. Now you are prepared to crucify the present MND for using this approach. Or is it because of his background? Being ex military he should be helds to a higher standard than say; Art Eggelton who was responsible for military pers shoveling sidewalks (*yet no one complained*.) Then he was ousted for his mis-placed ethics.



Ummmm...are you serious?   ???


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## Unknown C/S (24 Mar 2006)

Duey said:
			
		

> Ummmm...are you serious?   ???



Yes.

Did the  issue get raised in the house of commons? Did the military question? Did Mel Lastman re-imburse DND? Have there been any"proceedures" put in place to ensure that type of misuse of military resources does not occur again?

Nope.........it just died a quiet death.


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## Unknown C/S (24 Mar 2006)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> The new MND has made a number of comments in recent months indicating he is out of touch with military realities;
> 
> 1) "JTF Killers" should be moved to a military base where they might be better "controlled"
> 
> ...



Read reply #35............it covers what your still complaining about

What if I just agree with you people? Let's fire him now for having military experience.

Hey, why don't they bring back John MacCallum, (get him to jump parties) he would just parrot the govt policy but was fun to watch as he's thrown off aircraft for being drunk. Besides he instilled a lot of confidence when he opens a statement with "when I was in the cadets...."


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## GO!!! (24 Mar 2006)

Unknown C/S said:
			
		

> Read reply #35............it covers what your still complaining about



I see. 

Only you are permitted to repeat yourself _ad nauseum_.

I fail to see how soldiers shovelling snow constitutes a "misuse" of military resources. We also fight forest fires, and fill sandbags and clean up after ice storms. It's called "*aid to civil power*", and it has a long tradition in this country and others.

I don't find O'Connor to be disagreeable because he has prior military experience, I find him to be disagreeable because of his position in areas of importance when he was the PC Defence Critic.

In short, I think that O'Connor will be a flop as MND because he second guesses his soldiers, has a penchant for making wildly irresponsible and untrue  statements, and seems to enjoy micromanaging troops right down to the kit list. e.g. "No one here will buy their own kit"

My 2 cents.


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## Hunter (24 Mar 2006)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> I fail to see how soldiers shovelling snow constitutes a "misuse" of military resources. We also fight forest fires, and fill sandbags and clean up after ice storms. It's called "*aid to civil power*", and it has a long tradition in this country and others.
> 
> I don't find O'Connor to be disagreeable because he has prior military experience, I find him to be disagreeable because of his position in areas of importance when he was the PC Defence Critic.
> 
> ...



Well put GO.  

During the election I heard Mike Duffy say on tv that he thought it would be better to appoint someone else as the MND.  It wasn't a comment on Mr. O'Connor, but he was pointing out that generally speaking it's not a good idea to appoint a former portfolio critic to being the cabinet minister for the same portfolio.  The problem being that as a critic he can say whatever he wants and it's his job to be critical of government policy.  Once he's the cabinet minister it makes him a prime target to be attacked for not sticking by what he said in the opposition benches.

Of all the statements Mr. O'Connor has made, the ones about troops using personal kit and carrying 10 magazines were the ones that have troubled me the most.  I intially had the impression that he was in tune with what's going on with the rank & file, but more and more it seems not to be the case.  I live in his riding and I have met him many times, and as an MP representing his riding he does an excellent job.  It's a shame because I like the guy, but I find myself gritting my teeth every time I read something about him in the news.


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## TCBF (24 Mar 2006)

"I fail to see how soldiers shovelling snow constitutes a "misuse" of military resources. We also fight forest fires, and fill sandbags and clean up after ice storms. It's called "aid to civil power", and it has a long tradition in this country and others."

- An increadible waste of expensively trained skilled soldiers.  Why not use the unemployed to shovel snow, or fight fires?

We drove up into the hills of Kelowna , and the locals waved to us from the friggin'golf course - some emergency.

Tom


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## Unknown C/S (24 Mar 2006)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> I see.
> 
> Only you are permitted to repeat yourself _ad nauseum_.
> 
> ...



1) I am not repeating myself. That's why I referred back to a reply # The exact same point keeps getting brought up. they do not address my response, just restate what they have already said.

ad nauseum:
Def:   Latin term used to describe something that has been continuing "to the point of nausea." For example "This topic has been discussed ad nauseam": it has been discussed extensively and everyone has tired of it.
(I'm wondering just who is guilty here?) 

2) I suggest you revisit the snow shovelling facts.

 a) it was not an emergency
                                                                    
 b) name another city that recieved snow removal assistance from the military

3) again, his job as a defence critic

4) So you think your political master is, a liar, micro manager, and a tyrant.

I guess that is the danger of democracy, isn't it? Know-it-alls that can pick apart a politician without repercussions.


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## GO!!! (24 Mar 2006)

Unknown C/S said:
			
		

> 2) I suggest you revisit the snow shovelling facts. a) it was not an emergency


If I recall correctly, the Mayor of Toronto requested the army come in to provide assistance.  Heaven forbid the CF create some goodwill or positive sentiments. Besides, the Commander on the ground made the call - if you have a problem, take it up with your CoC.  Besides, what did you miss out on because of it? 


> b) name another city that recieved snow removal assistance


Most of western Quebec and Eastern ontario during the ice storms.



> 3) again, his job as a defence critic


HE IS NO LONGER THE DEFENCE CRITIC, now he is the MND, and his past is coming back to haunt him. 



> 4) So you think your political master is, a liar, micro manager, and a tyrant.


Strange, those seem like your words, I chose mine carefully. I did not call him a liar, but if that is how you feel...



> I guess that is the danger of democracy, isn't it?


Danger? Last time I checked, "free speech" was a fundamental right of all Canadians, and was not "dangerous" unless you were a totalitarian despot, terrified of dissent or criticism.



> Know-it-alls that can pick apart a politician without repercussions.


Are you advocating "repercussions" for those who dare disagree with you or the MND? 

Perhaps a special branch of the NIS who takes you away in the middle of the night for "political re-education". 

I am also a voter, as well as a soldier. The soldier puts his crappy TV on, wears green in a desert country, and says "yes sir".

The voter says "Wait a minute, since this guy ran as an MP on his past record, why should it not be held up for scrutiny?, and why should I not question the actions and statements of those who are at the national levers of power?"

Just because he is currently in charge does not make him right, it just makes him in charge. Perhaps you've forgotten that?


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## Unknown C/S (24 Mar 2006)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> If I recall correctly, the Mayor of Toronto requested the army come in to provide assistance.  Heaven forbid the CF create some goodwill or positive sentiments. Besides, the Commander on the ground made the call - if you have a problem, take it up with your CoC.  Besides, what did you miss out on because of it? Most of western Quebec and Eastern ontario during the ice storms.
> Perhaps a special branch of the NIS who takes you away in the middle of the night for "political re-education".
> HE IS NO LONGER THE DEFENCE CRITIC, now he is the MND, and his past is coming back to haunt him.
> Strange, those seem like your words, I chose mine carefully. I did not call him a liar, but if that is how you feel...
> ...





The Mayor, (Mel Lastman) called in a favour from the then MND Art Eggelton, a Toronto MP. (by-passing the normal protocols)
The Comd on the ground had nothing to do with it.
The question was, was it an emergency? you failed to answer that (choosing again to go off on a tangent)

The ice storm was not the same as shoveling out bus shelters It WAS an emergency. Please compare apples to apples..........

(My chain of Command consists of me and my golden retriever (2ic) read my profile)

His Def critic days are comming back to haunt him because people like you ensure these issues are perpetuated. Maybe you could leave it to the press?

The only issue I have with free speech is the fact that it should be classified as either ranging burst or killing burst (both must be used as applicable) it conserves ammo, improves accuracy and aids in not making you a target.

 Furthermore, the MND being a former soldier, one would think that current soldiers would give him the benifit of the doubt, instead it is open season on him. Leads me to believe either you have an axe to grind against officers or, don't like tankers.

There is nothing wrong with free speech as long as it tempered with respect and fairness. I certainly am not advocating repercussions for those that speak out. I had a lot of CO's that I had an opinion about, but I cetainly did not run them down publicly. It was only my opinion.

Remember there are quite a few soldiers with solutions for which there are no problems.


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## Good2Golf (24 Mar 2006)

Unknown C/S, you seem to take valid criticisms of a politician's statements and turn it into some spiteful, conspiratorial, seditious activity by serving members...what's your issue?


Here is the issue in a nut shell as I see it, feel free to pick it apart as I am sure you no doubt will.  While you're at it, feel free to tell me I have my head up my arse, that I'm only a 32A PLT and, as such, should keep my mouth shut on the issue or any combination as you know better than the other members who have voiced their displeasure with the Minister.  Do so, however with the knowledge that, having tried to carry 10 full mags for my C8 in my poor excuse of a tactical ballistic carrier (a.k.a. oversized canvas muscleshirt) while I was travelling around the Afghan countryside in a civy-pattern Land Cruiser, that I wished that there was a nice tactical vest that would allow me to carry all my ammo without having to use the FN C1A1 mag pockets on my CADPAT(AR) shirt that are conveniently hidden under my TBC.  Oh, wait a second...there is...but only some guys get it...perhaps I'd best stop talking about those guys with the nice chest rig.... I fully agree with 031'ers comments about the issue.

So...

Previous military experience or not, when the Minister speaks to an issue, it should be in an informed manner.  With me so far?  Good.

The Minister opened himself to critique by commenting on an issue in a manner that showed he was ill-informed.  It's a fact.  C7/C8 mags take 30 rounds as a standard load, not 20.  Did he remember back to days past with the C1A1 and a 20 round load?  Don't know, can't say, but someone could be forgiven for thinking this is the case.  That's just a small point, however, compared to questioning why a rifleman should need so much ammunition (or why I would want to increase my standard 150-round load when travelling say, between Kabul and Baghram by road).  That is what rubs most of the guys raw, especially 031'ers...and understandably so.  The statement was not backed up with any kind of information showing understanding of ammunition loads.  If the Minister had said something like, "We have assessed the ammunition loads of our soldiers in Afghanistan and have found the amount of ammunition that a rifleman is able to carry in his existing webbing or tactical vest to be sufficient for conducting operations in accordance with his tactics, techniques, and procedures" I could live with that..maybe not agree...but live with that.  That would sound as though he was fully informed on the issue.  He sounded like he was shooting from the hip in a manner that questioned why soldiers should be demanding so much ammunition.  How about, "because they are in a combat zone, not sitting in a big comfy chair in 13NT, 101 Colonel By"?

Unknown C/S, it would seem as though the location you have indicated in your profile, may be fairly accurate...

Duey


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## GO!!! (24 Mar 2006)

Unknown C/S said:
			
		

> The Mayor, (Mel Lastman) called in a favour from the then MND Art Eggelton, a Toronto MP. (by-passing the normal protocols)
> The Comd on the ground had nothing to do with it.


A favour? I suppose you hand carried the note?

_Hey Art, my lazy, city slicker constituents don't want to shovel, can you get some of those hillbillies in green to do their work? It would really help my re-election chances....Mel_  :

Please, let's try to stick to the facts here.



> The question was, was it an emergency? you failed to answer that (choosing again to go off on a tangent)


How many people died in their homes due to a lack of medical care? Was the trg sched. in Pet worth their lives? If we can help our citizens during adverse conditions, we do it - they pay our wages!



> The ice storm was not the same as shoveling out bus shelters It WAS an emergency. Please compare apples to apples..........


Both are natural disasters affecting the lives and livlihoods of several million people, with adverse effects on infrastructure, provision of services and business. apple = apple.



> His Def critic days are comming back to haunt him because people like you ensure these issues are perpetuated. Maybe you could leave it to the press?


I suppose we should just forget about his decade or so as a defence industry lobbyist too, right? After all, it is in the past... :



> The only issue I have with free speech is the fact that it should be classified as either ranging burst or killing burst (both must be used as applicable) it conserves ammo, improves accuracy and aids in not making you a target.


Then set a good example and stop posting.  ^-^



> Furthermore, the MND being a former soldier, one would think that current soldiers would give him the benifit of the doubt, instead it is open season on him. Leads me to believe either you have an axe to grind against officers or, don't like tankers.


Ohhhh riiight. Since I find him disagreeable, I must hate officers or tankers :. That's pretty weak, even from you. I find him disagreeable as a politician, in both his previous and current incarnations due to his statements and positions on certain issues, nothing more.



> There is nothing wrong with free speech as long as it tempered with respect and fairness. I certainly am not advocating repercussions for those that speak out. I had a lot of CO's that I had an opinion about, but I cetainly did not run them down publicly. It was only my opinion.


The main difference being that COs are not elected officials. Members of Parliament are. Everything a politician does is relevant, and open to scrutiny, from Stockwell Day on his Sea Doo to Paul Martin's ships registered in Panama, it all speaks to who I want running the country, and who my vote goes for.

I don't trash my CO publicly either - but soldiers do not vote for their COs - did'nt you say something about apples earlier?

As I stated earlier, I post here as a Canadian citizen, with insight.


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## Unknown C/S (24 Mar 2006)

Duey,

Feel free to attack me on a personal level. After all if I choose to defend the MND and that goes against the grain of a few, then in your opinion, I deserve it.
From your condesending tone I can well imagine you typed the last message slowly since you probably think I don't read very fast.  

My issue.................

The MND has held the position for what amounts to just weeks. And yet there are those who want him relaced for statements made, that possibly could be due to being poorly briefed or misinformed. Regardless, I've taken the position that I will wait and see. I do not believe the quoted statements are that earth shattering.
As I have expressed in past post, it sounds to me like a unit problem, local purchase is available to make up the required kit. 
It has been stated UCR's have gone unheeded. Perhaps they should look at the source. It would not be the first time a rear echelon staff officer "vetted" these to throw a smoke screen up for what he/she considered "whining". Was the MND made aware of all wish list's sent from in theatre pers? who knows.
Perhaps personel do not like the way Mr. O'Connor comes across. Maybe there is a certain perceived arrogance.
In conclusion, Yes I believe that he made an error or could have handled the situation better. I think time will tell if he is up to the job. Until then I will support him.


(And if you read between the lines, check my profile, you can probably figure out that, yes LCol O'Conner was my Commanding Officer. I am biased. I know the man. I won't share my opinions here since it is not the proper forum. I will back a fellow tanker because that is what we do.)

Quote
"Previous military experience or not, when the Minister speaks to an issue, it should be in an informed manner.  With me so far?  Good."

permission to stand at ease sir   (I enjoy that superior tone you used)

A pilot, Grounded through no fault of his own (you're in Kingston so I'll take some liberties here) Finds himself in a combat role, loaded down with 300 rds of ammo, Negotiating the terrain of Afghanistan (hot female assistant?) hunting Taliban..........You're certain you're not with the Judge Advocate Generals office?....................JAG? 
Who'd thunk it?  Sometimes fact is stranger than fiction


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## Unknown C/S (24 Mar 2006)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> A favour? I suppose you hand carried the note?
> 
> _Hey Art, my lazy, city slicker constituents don't want to shovel, can you get some of those hillbillies in green to do their work? It would really help my re-election chances....Mel_  :
> 
> ...



GO!!!

If you stop your tirade for a minute you should check your facts. (you know what they say when you assume) There was an investigation in to the procedure used to call troops out to Toronto because of a heavy snowfall.
How many people died? It turned out to be a non event. that's why they were left shoveling bus shelters out.
But you would have known all that. I guess you were there. (Funny, I'm sure I would have heard you.)

I am somewhat surprised, because I don't agree with you I should stop posting on this site? I guess freedom of speech only applies to you? Can we try to keep this objective?


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## Zoomie (25 Mar 2006)

[totally off topic]
Only 32 CBG members participated in the snow shovelling.  Apart from the Bison Ambulance, the RegF boys stayed up at CFB Downsview and worked on their snowmobiling skills.  The boys from Pet were positioned in T.O. in case their capabilities as the IRU were needed.
As it worked out that weekend was a 32 CBG exercise - we had the soldiers already and it saved us a trip to Meaford.


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## TCBF (25 Mar 2006)

"Only 32 CBG members participated in the snow shovelling.  Apart from the Bison Ambulance, the RegF boys stayed up at CFB Downsview and worked on their snowmobiling skills.  The boys from Pet were positioned in T.O. in case their capabilities as the IRU were needed.
As it worked out that weekend was a 32 CBG exercise - we had the soldiers already and it saved us a trip to Meaford"

- I never knew that, though i did think it was a big spit in Toronto's face that an army with 1,200 M113 family APCs would send wheeled vehicles to drive into an alledged "Snowstorm."

Emergency Preparedness Canada's provincial offices should have access to the licencing records and commercial location of all heavy equipment in a given area, for when it is needed for emergency contract after storms, tornado's, quakes, etc.

Did they?

If so, why call the Army?


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## HDE (25 Mar 2006)

Mayor Mel had quite a flair for the dramatic.  I was a bit surprised the military went along though.  Are they legally required to abide by a request for assistance or is there room for discussion?


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## Good2Golf (25 Mar 2006)

Unknown C/S, I suppose I can't argue the loyalty developed within the confines of a Centurion hull!  

Cheers,
Duey


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## TCBF (25 Mar 2006)

Mayor Mel had quite a flair for the dramatic.  I was a bit surprised the military went along though.  Are they legally required to abide by a request for assistance or is there room for discussion?"

- If the province makes a formal request under the Aid To Civil Power (now called something else, I believe) the guvmint cannot say NO.  Now, what form that assistance takes...


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## Teddy Ruxpin (26 Mar 2006)

> (And if you read between the lines, check my profile, you can probably figure out that, yes LCol O'Conner was my Commanding Officer. I am biased. I know the man. I won't share my opinions here since it is not the proper forum. I will back a fellow tanker because that is what we do.



Well, I'm an officer and a tanker and I have nothing but distain for some of the things our new Minister has touted.  He has commented extensively in the press upon issues that he obviously has no knowledge of or background on and has said some stunningly stupid things as a result.  O'Connor has been touted in the media as being the architect of the Conservative's defence policy, which still includes such gems as locating four "new" infantry battalions in very isolated Air Force Bases.  In fact, he confirmed that this politically-motivated idea was still in vogue when he visited Edmonton last week.

I have no idea how O'Connor was as a General (although I have heard others' opinions).  I do know, though, that he has said some monumentally idiotic things as Defence critic and that I am still highly skeptical of his (and by extension the Conservatives') more exotic ideas on defence.  Check my pre-Christmas posts to learn why...

TR


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## pbi (29 Mar 2006)

Michael is quite right in this observation. IMHO, what the CF really needs from its MND, more than anything else, is that he be an effective and respected politician, who can work the halls of power in which DND is just one player, (and not the biggest one) to get what we require, be it well defined and realistic missions, better gear or improved personnel benefits. That will be the true test of any MND. To me, the MND's party affiliation or past experience are really meaningless as long as he meets those criteria. The CDS and his staff are the military experts, and let no MND forget that.

Cheers


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## pbi (29 Mar 2006)

TCBF said:
			
		

> Mayor Mel had quite a flair for the dramatic.  I was a bit surprised the military went along though.  Are they legally required to abide by a request for assistance or is there room for discussion?"
> 
> - If the province makes a formal request under the Aid To Civil Power (now called something else, I believe) the guvmint cannot say NO.  Now, what form that assistance takes...



This probably merits a separate thread all on its own, but anyway...


I was the A/G3 of LFCA when the Southern Ontario snow emergency happened. (I say Southern Ontario because we were also providing assistance in Chatham-Kent and in the Kingston area.) While 32 CBG provided the tactical HQ for the operation in Toronto, and provided most of the shovel manpower, it was not alone. In the early stages of the operation, several Bisons from the RCD were positioned in downtown fire/EMS stations to cover runs into areas where the streets had not been cleared. Initially, as far as we could tell, this combined Reg/Res response was adequate. There was no request for further military aid sent to us via the correct and normal channels for unarmed assistance (normally initiated through our standing relationship with Emergency Measures Ontario: EPC had no role whatsoever). Comd LFCA had no intent to deploy the IRU as there was no assessed need, although as an SOP we had alerted 2 CMBG. The city seemed to be managing well, deploying approximately 800 pieces of municipal snowclearance machinery, as well as contracted equipment. Snow was indeed very deep in some streets (I did a recce) but things did not seem disastrous.

Unforunately, Mayor Lastman, for reasons best known only to him, became very worried that the continuing snowfall would create a humanitarian emergency. Instead of going to EMO as he should have done, he appears to have approached then-MND Eggleton directly, on political channels. (Eggleton was a former Mayor, whose Toronto riding offce kept a very active interest in military events, as anybody in LFCAHQ from those days can attest...). Through a process that I do not pretend to understand, the CDS called Comd LFCA and ordered him to deploy the IRU. Despite our Comd's representation that this would be unnecessary, the CDS insisted. 

As a result, the RCD (reinforced by a task force drawn from 2 CER) deployed on an eight hour road move through winter conditions from Pet to Toronto. We quartered them at the old Downsview site (which fortunately had not yet been demolished), and at Fort York Armoury. While the RCD were unfortunately very under-employed, the 2 CER task force was assigned in support of Tornonto Works and Emergency Services to conduct heavy snow clearance, which they did to the best of  their ability.

Once the snow"emergency" abated, LFCA HQ tried to get NDHQ permission to redeploy the 2 CMBG units back to Pet, but we were stymied by inexplicable foot dragging that kept the troops sitting idle, even though the snow was actually melting! This was probably one of the most frustrating parts of the entire operation.

Keep in mind that all this time, the Province of  Ontario had access to literally hundreds of pieces of provincial, municipal and contractor snow clearance machinery that could have been deployed to assist the City. To the best of my recollection, this never happened and EMO was (through no fault of their own) never significantly involved. Mayor Mel did an end-run on the whole system that was (and is) carefully set up to provide checks and balances on CF involvement in civil emergencies.

Was the CF mandated to respond? Under Canadian statutes and CF practices at the time, we were required to respond to requests for aid to civil power (this op was NOT an ACP op) made by the Solicitor General of a Province to the Govt of Canada. We were certainly expected (if not required) to respond to humanitarian emergency assistance requests, when these were made through the correct and well-proven EMO-LFCA channels, on behalf of  the Provincial Govt. (Not, I hasten to add, any municipal govt by itself, unless a clear and imminent "life and limb" threat could be proven. This, IMHO, never existed.) The assistance of municipal govts is the job of the provincial govt, until they reach the point at which they can no longer handle it. Then, they turn to us. This point was never, ever reached in the case of Toronto because, except for the limited initial response, the Province was not engaged in the decision to deploy increased CF forces into Toronto.

Although all the troops did great work and the people of Toronto were grateful, the process was very wrong. In a widespread emergency in which we were spread thin, it could have been disastrous. I hope we (the CF and the Fed Govt) have learned our lessons.

Cheers.


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## Unknown C/S (30 Mar 2006)

pbi said:
			
		

> Unforunately, Mayor Lastman, for reasons best known only to him, became very worried that the continuing snowfall would create a humanitarian emergency. Instead of going to EMO as he should have done, he appears to have approached then-MND Eggleton directly, on political channels. (Eggleton was a former Mayor, whose Toronto riding offce kept a very active interest in military events, as anybody in LFCAHQ from those days can attest...). Through a process that I do not pretend to understand, the CDS called Comd LFCA and ordered him to deploy the IRU. Despite our Comd's representation that this would be unnecessary, the CDS insisted.
> 
> 
> Cheers.



pbi

Thanks for shedding light on the issue, Due to the fact that after I retired I've been trying to format brain cells and could not recall all the details...............
It seems to me that an internal investigation was conducted within the office of the MND shortly after this debacle. (of course not much of which was made public) I don't believe we will ever see a city mayor having access to military resources (or political leverage) at that level again.

Duey,
Those pockets....................after all these years I thought the design was to hold a couple of packs of smokes and a lighter  ;D    mags eh? go figure


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