# Van attack in Toronto [Merged]



## tomahawk6 (23 Apr 2018)

My sympathies to the victims families and any injured.We have seen this before in Paris and London.The driver was caught fortunately.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/pedestrians-struck-white-van-1.4631564


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## jollyjacktar (23 Apr 2018)

My thoughts are with all those affected by this incident.


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## Starlight1 (23 Apr 2018)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> My sympathies to the victims families and any injured.We have seen this before in Paris and London.The driver was caught fortunately.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/pedestrians-struck-white-van-1.4631564


Horrible.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## brihard (23 Apr 2018)

So as I'm putting it together now with a couple hours elapsed- this is all what I can find open source and from photos/videos. I cannot confirm any of what I've got here, but this is what looks pretty solid right now, again, mostly drawn from photos, videos, and witness accounts to media.

It appears he was southbound on Yonge in a white rental van. He hopped the curb and started striking people, it appears that he left several people dead in his wake, this based on photos of what appear to be multiple orange tarps over victims. He continued down the sidewalk for about a kilometer, turned right onto Poyntz and got out of his car.

Initial police response seemed to be routine for a pedestrian hit and run- there's video of a cruiser rolling up to a scene, with one on the ground and a bunch of bystanders pointing him south down Yonge. He then takes off down Yonge street. Very quickly it sounds like word got out about multiple scenes.

There is video from where the van rounded the corner onto Poyntz. It appears to have stopped voluntarily and the driver exited. I saw no barriers, obstacles, or serious damage that would stop the van. There's further video of the first officer approaching the driver at gunpoint. The driver rapidly draws what I have read was a cellphone on the officer several times while yelling at the officer. I would bet a pay check he was trying to get shot based on the video of the repeated quick draw with the object. The officer did not fire, and it appears that the male was brought safely into custody.

Mass casualty response. Sunnybrook hospital has brought in at least eight victims, and the hospital announced one dead, five in critical, one in serious, one in fair. Now I believe but am not certain that this is in addition to likely more than one victim who were deceased and remained on scene under tarps.

It looks like there were pedestrian strikes in multiple places. It looks like he stayed on the sidewalk.

Toronto Police have lead, and Ontario Provincial Police and RCMP are supporting. 

I've seen/heard more than that, but nothing I would characterize yet as stronger than rumor.

EDIT TO ADD: Toronto Police just confirmed nine dead.


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## Trueprince2 (23 Apr 2018)

9 confirmed dead 16 in hospital and 10 in critical condition, this is also right by the toronto recruiting office. my prayers go out to everyone in the area


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## daftandbarmy (23 Apr 2018)

Brihard said:
			
		

> There's further video of the first officer approaching the driver at gunpoint. The driver rapidly draws what I have read was a cellphone on the officer several times while yelling at the officer. I would bet a pay check he was trying to get shot based on the video of the repeated quick draw with the object. The officer did not fire, and it appears that the male was brought safely into custody.



And there's a cop that deserves a 'VC for self-restraint'.

A very sad day for humanity. Prayers to all the innocent victims and their families....


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## FJAG (23 Apr 2018)

As usual, there is better coverage of the incident in the UK Daily Mail than in the Canadian news sources.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5648591/Van-strikes-eight-pedestrians-Toronto-flees-scene.html

 :facepalm:


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## AbdullahD (23 Apr 2018)

My thoughts and prayers are with the victims and all those affected.


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## jollyjacktar (23 Apr 2018)

The suspect has been identified as Alek Minassian, 25, which they announced on CBC but haven't updated their webpage.


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## brihard (23 Apr 2018)

An Armenian name, for what that's worth. The suspect in the video had a definite accent.


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## Eye In The Sky (23 Apr 2018)

RIP to todays victims.   :cdnsalute:


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## Retired AF Guy (23 Apr 2018)

Links to couple of sites with information on the attacker. According to one mental illness, not terrorism is the suggested motive. However, as always these days with fake news, take everything until confirmed with a grain of salt.

Alek Minassian: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know

Alek Minassian


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## mariomike (23 Apr 2018)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Links to couple of sites with information on the attacker. According to one mental illness, not terrorism is the suggested motive. However, as always these days with fake news, take everything until confirmed with a grain of salt.
> 
> Alek Minassian: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know
> 
> Alek Minassian



I agree with the highlighted part.

Having said that, any ideas on what this means?

QUOTE

Alek Minassian had made a Facebook​ post stating:


"Private (Recruit) Minassian Infantry 00010, wishing to speak to Sgt 4chan please. C23249161. The Incel Rebellion has already begun! We will overthow all the Chads and Stacys! All hail Supreme Gentleman Elliot Rodger​!" 

END QUOTE

Elliot Rodger​
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Isla_Vista_killings

Incel
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=incel
"involuntarily celibate"

4Chan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4chan

Chads and Stacys ( fantasy )
https://www.reddit.com/r/4chan/comments/3dg4gv/chad_and_stacy_fantasy/
"Chad Thundercock is a nickname for any attractive, popular men who are sexually successful with women. Similar to the term “Normies”, Chad and his female counterpart Stacy are often used as pejoratives by those who consider themselves nonconformists on 4chan’s /r9k/ board."


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## brihard (23 Apr 2018)

I think 4chan just pulled a fast one on CBC.


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## mariomike (23 Apr 2018)

"Chad Thundercock"


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## Cloud Cover (23 Apr 2018)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> And there's a cop that deserves a 'VC for self-restraint'.
> 
> A very sad day for humanity. Prayers to all the innocent victims and their families....



Yes, and how did that cop know that the perp was not wearing a suicide vest, or the phone was not a BT sympathetic trigger for a VBIED.  He didn’t, he just did his job, and I’m a little pissed with civilians complaining the officer used “harsh language” and threatened to shoot him.  
And the CBC question and spin: is this a case of a white male conducting an attack on persons of colour in an area known to be multicultural.  I wish Chief Saunders had ripped her a new one right then and there.


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## brihard (23 Apr 2018)

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> Yes, and how did that cop know that the perp was not wearing a suicide vest, or the phone was not a BT sympathetic trigger for a VBIED.



He didn’t, but it was not at all consistent with prior actions or observed behaviour. That said, police tend not to get training on suicide bombers.


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## AbdullahD (23 Apr 2018)

Brihard said:
			
		

> He didn’t, but it was not at all consistent with prior actions or observed behaviour. That said, police tend not to get training on suicide bombers.



And let's hope they never need it in Canada.


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## tomahawk6 (24 Apr 2018)

This perp is looking at a life sentence I hope.Whats life like in a Federal prison ?


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## jollyjacktar (24 Apr 2018)

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> And let's hope they never need it in Canada.



Amen


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## jollyjacktar (24 Apr 2018)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> This perp is looking at a life sentence I hope.Whats life like in a Federal prison ?



If only he could be let loose amongst the general population.  It would be a short sentence.


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## YZT580 (24 Apr 2018)

Isn't life 25 years with no chance of parole for 15, unless you are declared a dangerous offender in which case it is indeterminate.  Another gift from father Pierre.  Life means life, riggghhht!


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## tomahawk6 (24 Apr 2018)

So a life sentence for each person killed and injured ?


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## Altair (24 Apr 2018)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> This perp is looking at a life sentence I hope.Whats life like in a Federal prison ?


He's probably looking at 10 life sentences. 250 years, I think that would be the longest sentence in Canadian history?

Unless he's mentally ill.


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## brihard (24 Apr 2018)

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> And let's hope they never need it in Canada.



Probably an unrealistic hope.


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## mariomike (24 Apr 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> He's probably looking at 10 life sentences. 250 years,



Probably won't even serve half of that.  



			
				Altair said:
			
		

> I think that would be the longest sentence in Canadian history?



http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/justin-bourque-gets-5-life-sentences-no-chance-of-parole-for-75-years-1.2818516
"It is the longest sentence in Canadian history"



			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> An Armenian name, for what that's worth.



A Christian country, for what that's worth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Armenia



			
				Altair said:
			
		

> Unless he's mentally ill.


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## brihard (24 Apr 2018)

Ugh. Facebook is confirming the post where he refers to himself as Pte(Recruit) and 00010 Infantryman is real. I friggin hope this reprobate wasn’t actually CAF.


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## tomahawk6 (24 Apr 2018)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Ugh. Facebook is confirming the post where he refers to himself as Pte(Recruit) and 00010 Infantryman is real. I friggin hope this reprobate wasn’t actually CAF.
> 
> It doesnt matter what he calls himself.He is now a criminal with the deaths of innocents on his hands.


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## mariomike (24 Apr 2018)

QUOTE

Toronto van attack suspect Alek Minassian was a member of the Canadian Army 
https://news.vice.com/en_ca/article/8xkjgg/exclusive-toronto-van-attack-suspect-alek-minassian-was-a-member-of-the-canadian-army

END QUOTE

Other sources,
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Alek+Minassian%22+canadian+forces&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A4%2F24%2F2018%2Ccd_max%3A4%2F24%2F2018&tbm=


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## Trueprince2 (24 Apr 2018)

CTV News has confirmed that Yonge Street attack suspect Alek Minassian was a member of the Canadian Armed Forces from Aug. 23, 2017 until October 25, 2017. Minassian did not complete his recruit training and requested to be voluntarily released after 16 days of recruit training.


Source cp24


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## tomahawk6 (24 Apr 2018)

He dropped after 2 whole months ? If he was a nutcase in high school how he passed the medicals is anyone's guess.


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## OceanBonfire (24 Apr 2018)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> He dropped after 2 whole months ? If he was a nutcase in high school how he passed the medicals is anyone's guess.



I'm more concerned he was resourceful to get at least 4 good enough references and pass the interview.


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## PuckChaser (24 Apr 2018)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> He dropped after 2 whole months ? If he was a nutcase in high school how he passed the medicals is anyone's guess.


Dropped after 16 days, took the remaining time to process release or that they're counting the leave without pay between enrollment ceremony and BMQ start date.


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## jollyjacktar (24 Apr 2018)

I feel slightly dirty with that mouth breather having even ever so slightly been associated with our world.


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## Pencil Tech (24 Apr 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> I agree with the highlighted part.
> 
> Having said that, any ideas on what this means?
> 
> ...



Isn't the internet wonderful? Now these angry bitter little men who basically can't get laid (incel) can find likeminded losers and together they can plot their revenge, instead of working on being a person somebody might want to have a relationship with. These people have a role model and martyr to their cause, i.e. California mass murderer Elliot Rodger. So really, terrorism is fuelled by whatever your resentment is, might be political, might be religious, or it might just be that you're just a total dork and a loser and want to kill a bunch of people, either in a school, or a gay bar, or at a country music concert in Vegas with a rifle , or a pop concert in Manchester, or on the sidewalk with a van or truck, in London, or Nice , or Toronto. To me the causes are equally futile and the ISIS wannabes are essentially the same as the "incel" losers, and vice versa.

Check this out: http://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2018/04/24/incels-hail-toronto-van-driver-who-killed-10-as-a-new-elliot-rodger-talk-of-future-acid-attacks-and-mass-rapes/


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## AbdullahD (24 Apr 2018)

Pencil Tech said:
			
		

> Isn't the internet wonderful? Now these angry bitter little men who basically can't get laid (incel) can find likeminded losers and together they can plot their revenge, instead of working on being a person somebody might want to have a relationship with. These people have a role model and martyr to their cause, i.e. California mass murderer Elliot Rodger. So really, terrorism is fuelled by whatever your resentment is, might be political, might be religious, or it might just be that you're just a total dork and a loser and want to kill a bunch of people, either in a school, or a gay bar, or at a country music concert in Vegas with a rifle , or a pop concert in Manchester, or on the sidewalk with a van or truck, in London, or Nice , or Toronto. To me the causes are equally futile and the ISIS wannabes are essentially the same as the "incel" losers, and vice versa.
> 
> Check this out: http://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2018/04/24/incels-hail-toronto-van-driver-who-killed-10-as-a-new-elliot-rodger-talk-of-future-acid-attacks-and-mass-rapes/



I went down that rabbit hole and looked.. I'm livid mad these things want these types of things to happen.

Christ my wife is about a million times better looking then I am and yet she still married me... don't these idiots get it the reason they ain't been laid is because they are misogynistic, jerks who act like douche bags to everyone? Forums that promote plans for murder should be shut down, the world does not need that crap. Turn the internet off, go outside, take a hike, get a job and try to be a good person....

Sorry I'm rambling, I'm just ticked and disgusted. Also I have a lovely wife and daughter not to mention my son, I don't mind people wanting me dead that's a whatever, but for wanting my family dead just because we are a family... thats a different issue.


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## Primus (24 Apr 2018)

Pencil Tech said:
			
		

> country music concert in Vegas with a rifle


Great points on that post. I see the Toronto attacks as terrorism as well, as he had an agenda to punish people for his shortcomings . 
I agreed on everything but this though. What was the motive to call Vegas shooting terrorism?


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## Remius (24 Apr 2018)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Dropped after 16 days, took the remaining time to process release or that they're counting the leave without pay between enrollment ceremony and BMQ start date.



Looks more like he started a reserve BMQ and quit.


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## Remius (24 Apr 2018)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> He dropped after 2 whole months ? If he was a nutcase in high school how he passed the medicals is anyone's guess.



Medicals aren't psychological tests.   He breathes, he pees clean, can see and hear the way we want him to and has no official medical history showing anything then he essentially can get in.

I'm pretty sure that: "Were you a nutcase in high school?" wasn't asked of him at any stage.


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## brihard (24 Apr 2018)

Some disturbing insight into the online “incel” (involuntarily celibate) subculture that inspired and seems to be vegetating this attacker as well as Elliot Rogers. We truly do have a new class of violently radicalized losers seeking to visit harm on what they view as “normies”, or ‘normal’ (e.g., sexually, socially, economically successful) people. Careful... this stuff is disturbing and you can’t un-read it.

http://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2018/04/24/incels-hail-toronto-van-driver-who-killed-10-as-a-new-elliot-rodger-talk-of-future-acid-attacks-and-mass-rapes/


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## mariomike (24 Apr 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> Looks more like he started a reserve BMQ and quit.



QUOTE

Alek Minassian, the suspect in Monday's van attack in Toronto, joined the Canadian Forces last August and turned up for basic training at Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu, Que., in September.

Sixteen days into his 13-week basic training courses he asked to leave and was ultimately released from his service in late October, according to a statement from the Department of National Defence Tuesday.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/alek-minassian-canadian-armed-forces-1.4633129

END QUOTE


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## Remius (24 Apr 2018)

Ah ok.

Thanks.


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## serifed (24 Apr 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> QUOTE
> 
> Alek Minassian, the suspect in Monday's van attack in Toronto, joined the Canadian Forces last August and turned up for basic training at Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu, Que., in September.
> 
> ...



Last year around that time, the BMQ was 12 weeks and BMOQ was 14 weeks. Is there a course that's 13 in St. Jean? Or is this an article written without much research? I was in St Jean at the time and (luckily) don't remember this scrub.


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## Roger123 (24 Apr 2018)

Brihard said:
			
		

> http://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2018/04/24/incels-hail-toronto-van-driver-who-killed-10-as-a-new-elliot-rodger-talk-of-future-acid-attacks-and-mass-rapes/



I didnt know such an pathetic subculture existed on the internet, it what appears to be an open discussion. In the wake of the Toronto attack, you would think that much more cyber monitoring and investigation would be conducted into such a group and action taken.


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## Roger123 (24 Apr 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> He's probably looking at 10 life sentences. 250 years, I think that would be the longest sentence in Canadian history?
> Unless he's mentally ill.


His intention at the end of the carnage was suicide by cop. He tries to get the cop to shoot him by pretending to quickly draw a firearm multiple times. There is a pecking order of crimes that inmates despise in jail, such as crimes against innocent children. Its reasonable to assume that he may try to take his own life in jail when he gets targeted for what he has done.


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## Jarnhamar (24 Apr 2018)

Were any children killed?


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## Roger123 (24 Apr 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Were any children killed?


Im not sure. One of the eye witness accounts say she saw the van plowing through people on the sidewalk and a stroller in the air


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## brihard (24 Apr 2018)

Roger123 said:
			
		

> I didnt know such an pathetic subculture existed on the internet, it what appears to be an open discussion. In the wake of the Toronto attack, you would think that much more cyber monitoring and investigation would be conducted into such a group and action taken.



Very, very difficult to charge people for hypothetical discussions like this. It would need to get to the point of specifically counseling someone to commit an offense, or of inciting hatred against an identifiable group... Disgusting and hateful is not inherently illegal.


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## Altair (24 Apr 2018)

Roger123 said:
			
		

> His intention at the end of the carnage was suicide by cop. He tries to get the cop to shoot him by pretending to quickly draw a firearm multiple times. There is a pecking order of crimes that inmates despise in jail, such as crimes against innocent children. Its reasonable to assume that he may try to take his own life in jail when he gets targeted for what he has done.


Interestingly enough, if he had stopped by his kitchen and grabbed a decent sized knife he would probably be dead.

Take a large knife and charge a officer and you likely end up riddled full of bullets.


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## brihard (24 Apr 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> Interestingly enough, if he had stopped by his kitchen and grabbed a decent sized knife he would probably be dead.
> 
> Take a large knife and charge a officer and you likely end up riddled full of bullets.



Shot at least, yeah, possibly dead. Or he could have dropped $30 for a cheap airsoft at Canadian Tire.

Coincidentally I was at the range today requalifying at pistol, and naturally enough the subject came up. A couple of us spread out to about the same distance and pointed our cell phones at each other as if they were guns. Looked to be pretty similar lighting conditions to what he faced. We agreed that yeah, it could easily and justifiably have gone either way. It was certainly reasonable to be able to discern that it was a cell phone (or at least likely not a gun), but equally in a high stress situation and with him moving about it could have been easy to perceive that the item was a gun and act accordingly. 

The officer did a phenomenal job. He was cool and collected right from the start. Clearly he was able to recognize that he was not facing a gun. Note in the video how he reaches into his cruiser and turns off the sirens so he can hear. Hearing the man say 'kill me' etc, it looks like the officer recognized a suicide by cop attempt and was able to keep his time and distance until the suspect's behaviour changed. He transitioned to baton, went in, and took control. Interestingly had another officer arrived on scene any sooner, it's entirely possible the suicide by cop would have succeeded.

The officer would have been justified in shooting based on the actions and behaviours of the suspect. Especially the fast reach for the pocket. Fortunately the officer was switched on and cool enough to call the bluff, with a phenomenally successful result. His judgment and restraint was the epitome of professionalism. He done good.


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## Roger123 (24 Apr 2018)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Very, very difficult to charge people for hypothetical discussions like this. It would need to get to the point of specifically counseling someone to commit an offense, or of inciting hatred against an identifiable group... Disgusting and hateful is not inherently illegal.



This is not the first mass killing fueled by people acting out against society for their apparent situation in life and lack of sexual exploits. People that identify themselves as supposed 'incels' undergo said radicalization predominately online. Such online discussions have to be a source of getting painted on some watch list.


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## brihard (24 Apr 2018)

Roger123 said:
			
		

> This is not the first mass killing fueled by people acting out against society for their apparent situation in life and lack of sexual exploits. People that identify themselves as supposed 'incels' undergo said radicalization predominately online. Such online discussions have to be a source of getting painted on some watch list.



I was responding less to 'investigation and monitoring' and more to 'action taken'. They can watch and monitor all they like, but until a person's behaviour crosses into a criminal threshold, they cannot be charged or jailed. It's a chronic challenge for polcec to be able to catch someone in that critical window between when they become sufficiently dangerous or enforcement action to be taken, and when they actually act.


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## Jarnhamar (24 Apr 2018)

[quote author=Brihard] 

The officer would have been justified in shooting based on the actions and behaviours of the suspect. 
[/quote]

I would have cheered if the officer shot him in the crotch.


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## Altair (24 Apr 2018)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Shot at least, yeah, possibly dead. Or he could have dropped $30 for a cheap airsoft at Canadian Tire.
> 
> Coincidentally I was at the range today requalifying at pistol, and naturally enough the subject came up. A couple of us spread out to about the same distance and pointed our cell phones at each other as if they were guns. Looked to be pretty similar lighting conditions to what he faced. We agreed that yeah, it could easily and justifiably have gone either way. It was certainly reasonable to be able to discern that it was a cell phone (or at least likely not a gun), but equally in a high stress situation and with him moving about it could have been easy to perceive that the item was a gun and act accordingly.
> 
> ...



The same TPS that isn't invited to the pride parade. Go figure.


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## Roger123 (24 Apr 2018)

[quote author=Altair 

Unless he's mentally ill.
[/quote]

And if the conclusion is made that he is mentally ill, what is the projected scenario in that case? Locked up in a psych ward for the duration of his natural life?


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## Roger123 (24 Apr 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I would have cheered if the officer shot him in the crotch.



It would give new meaning to the term 'Involuntary Celibate'


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## Haggis (24 Apr 2018)

I, too, was on the range today with my agency and this was discussed in detail.  There's a deep split among all the internet's armchair tactical experts chiming in to dissect a minute worth of grainy cell phone video. Some want the officer fired for lack of judgement in that he didn't shoot.  Others want him decorated.

Despite that he would've likely been quickly vindicated had he fired, he didn't.  He had the best view of the situation. Civilians walked out from behind the van during the incident, completely oblivious to the events unfolding.  Hence, he likely, at least for a time, had a "dirty background".  And it's obvious those people came from within the building behind the suspect, a building with a glass front that only the officer could see clearly.

Those of us that teach this type of stuff for a living believe that he made the right call under terrifyingly difficult circumstances.


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## Altair (24 Apr 2018)

Roger123 said:
			
		

> [quote author=Altair
> 
> Unless he's mentally ill.
> 
> ...


until no longer a risk to the public. Could be forever. Could be a few years.

The greyhound bus beheader is out free now.


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## Roger123 (24 Apr 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> until no longer a risk to the public. Could be forever. Could be a few years.
> 
> The greyhound bus beheader is out free now.



I was going to bring up that point. That would be an utterly disgusting scenario.


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## mariomike (24 Apr 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> The greyhound bus beheader is out free now.



To refresh our memories,

Manitoba bus stabbing/ beheading  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/78542.200
9 pages

QUOTE

Mentally ill man who beheaded bus passenger is freed from all supervision 
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/11/mentally-ill-man-who-beheaded-bus-passenger-is-freed-from-all-supervision
Will Baker, formerly known as Vince Li, was found not criminally responsible for 2008 killing in Canada and has now been given absolute discharge

END QUOTE

"Two female passengers from Ontario are now seeking $3 million in damages each – $1 million for ‘general’ damages, another million for ‘nervous shock’ damages, and a third million in ‘special’ damages from Greyhound, Vince Li, the state of Manitoba and the law enforcement department.

The family of Tim McLean only sued for $150,000 in damages."


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## Roger123 (24 Apr 2018)

I had my interview scheduled at CFRC Toronto yesterday. It was rescheduled due to a scheduling conflict about two weeks ago by the RC. The time frame and location ( Yonge and Sheppard), not to be mention the weather that day had me thinking. Probably would have finished before noon, gone to get a bite to eat, enjoy the weather by going for a walk,etc. My thoughts have been very much with those killed, injured, the witnesses and families affected by this tragedy.


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## mariomike (24 Apr 2018)

I've been thinking of it too. I was stationed at 12 Canterbury Place, North York ( basically Ground Zero for that call ) on a Mass Casualty Incident ( MCI ) bus. 

Just shy of 37 years on the department - 29 of them on the bus- but, thankfully, never sent to a job like that. 

My thoughts are with the victims, and those who tried to help.


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## jollyjacktar (24 Apr 2018)

Haggis said:
			
		

> I, too, was on the range today with my agency and this was discussed in detail.  There's a deep split among all the internet's armchair tactical experts chiming in to dissect a minute worth of grainy cell phone video. Some want the officer fired for lack of judgement in that he didn't shoot.  Others want him decorated.
> 
> Despite that he would've likely been quickly vindicated had he fired, he didn't.  He had the best view of the situation. Civilians walked out from behind the van during the incident, completely oblivious to the events unfolding.  Hence, he likely, at least for a time, had a "dirty background".  And it's obvious those people came from within the building behind the suspect, a building with a glass front that only the officer could see clearly.
> 
> Those of us that teach this type of stuff for a living believe that he made the right call under terrifyingly difficult circumstances.



So very true.  The officer was presented with a difficult tactical situation that required split second evaluation, judgement and correct action.  Thankfully the closest l came to this experience was the FATS.  

Things could have gone south very quickly without his professionalism.  I'm hoping and sure his PER will reflect this  day.


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## brihard (24 Apr 2018)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> So very true.  The officer was presented with a difficult tactical situation that required split second evaluation, judgement and correct action.  Thankfully the closest l came to this experience was the FATS.
> 
> Things could have gone south very quickly without his professionalism.  I'm hoping and sure his PER will reflect this  day.



I would guess and hope that he’ll meet the Governor General in a year or two’s time.


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## jollyjacktar (24 Apr 2018)

I sure hope so.


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## mariomike (24 Apr 2018)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I would guess and hope that he’ll meet the Governor General in a year or two’s time.



He might get a medal from the Feds, the Province and the City. Trifecta!


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## Halifax Tar (25 Apr 2018)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I would guess and hope that he’ll meet the Governor General in a year or two’s time.



Maybe an ambassadorship to Ireland ?    ;D 8)

Too soon ? lol


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## tomahawk6 (25 Apr 2018)

He could run the Make a Wish foundation he is damn lucky.


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## Pencil Tech (25 Apr 2018)

Primus said:
			
		

> Great points on that post. I see the Toronto attacks as terrorism as well, as he had an agenda to punish people for his shortcomings .
> I agreed on everything but this though. What was the motive to call Vegas shooting terrorism?



To me the only difference is he kept his grievance to himself and we'll never know what it was. There must have been something that caused him to mass murder and whatever it was, like the others, it didn't justify the carnage. I guess what I'm trying to say is that these incidents are all just about somebody "going postal" because of their own individual pathology in the media-saturated world we now live in, whatever external, political, religious, racial "justification" is used as a frame for the act.


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## mariomike (25 Apr 2018)

Pencil Tech said:
			
		

> I guess what I'm trying to say is that these incidents are all just about somebody "going postal" because of their own individual pathology in the media-saturated world we now live in, whatever external, political, religious, racial "justification" is used as a frame for the act.



"The USPS does not approve of the term "going postal" and has made attempts to stop people from using the saying. Some postal workers, however, feel it has earned its place."
Vick, Karl, "Violence at work tied to loss of esteem", St. Petersburg Times, Dec 17, 1993

The Simpsons, 

Bart and Lisa visit the post office and Nelson asks:
Nelson: Have you ever gone on a killing spree?
Postmaster Bill: (laughing) Ho ho ho, nooo noo, the day of the gun toting disgruntled postman shooting up the place went out with the Macarena.
Principal Skinner: I'm just glad I work in an elementary school.
https://comb.io/eRPqgK


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## Pencil Tech (25 Apr 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> "The USPS does not approve of the term "going postal" and has made attempts to stop people from using the saying. Some postal workers, however, feel it has earned its place."
> Vick, Karl, "Violence at work tied to loss of esteem", St. Petersburg Times, Dec 17, 1993
> 
> The Simpsons,
> ...



 :rofl: :goodpost:


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## Jarnhamar (25 Apr 2018)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Maybe an ambassadorship to Ireland ?    ;D 8)
> 
> Too soon ? lol



I was sort of just thinking about that (case) 

If I'm not mistaken the police officer that actually killed the shooter in that case suffered some mental illness from stuff stemming from the shooting.

I'd guess that in some cases pushing people into the spotlight for doing their job, justified as the shooting is, can have detrimental effects.


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## Blake Castelein (25 Apr 2018)

This guy was in my sister platoon, never sat at his platoons table at meal times was always bouncing around different groups. Thought he was pretty weird creepy dude. Can't believe this garbage made it in at one point.

Edited for spelling and to add that I am referring to the driver.


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## Remius (25 Apr 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I was sort of just thinking about that (case)
> 
> If I'm not mistaken the police officer that actually killed the shooter in that case suffered some mental illness from stuff stemming from the shooting.
> 
> I'd guess that in some cases pushing people into the spotlight for doing their job, justified as the shooting is, can have detrimental effects.



I think that it had a lot to do with him not being recognised for what he did.  He wasn't at all in the spotlight.  in fact I think the issue was that he couldn't get the help he needed because no one recognised that he was the actual shooting officer. 

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadas-loneliest-hero-why-youve-never-heard-of-this-rcmp-officer-who-shot-the-parliament-hill-gunman


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## brihard (25 Apr 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> I think that it had a lot to do with him not being recognised for what he did.  He wasn't at all in the spotlight.  in fact I think the issue was that he couldn't get the help he needed because no one recognised that he was the actual shooting officer.
> 
> http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadas-loneliest-hero-why-youve-never-heard-of-this-rcmp-officer-who-shot-the-parliament-hill-gunman



Great dude. Former sapper, actually. I met him last year at a mental health event and he told his story. It’s not mine to repeat, suffice to say there were serious shortcomings in identifying the involved responders and getting them promptly out of the scene.


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## Haggis (25 Apr 2018)

Blake C. said:
			
		

> This guy was in my sister platoon, never sat at his platoons table at meal times was always bouncing around different groups. Thought he was pretty wierd creepy dude. Can't believe this garbage made it in at one point.



You are referring to the alleged driver, yes?  The post immediately above your referred to an RCMP officer.


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## mariomike (25 Apr 2018)

Haggis said:
			
		

> The post immediately above your referred to an RCMP officer.



For that discussion,

"Why you’ve never heard of this RCMP officer who shot Parliament Hill gunman"
https://army.ca/forums/threads/124411.0


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## Blake Castelein (25 Apr 2018)

Haggis said:
			
		

> You are referring to the alleged driver, yes?  The post immediately above your referred to an RCMP officer.


Yes, sorry I should have clarified. I was referring to the driver.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## observor 69 (26 Apr 2018)

"Number cited in cryptic Facebook post matches Alek Minassian’s military ID: Source"

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2018/04/25/number-cited-in-cryptic-facebook-post-matches-alek-minassians-military-id-source.html


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## Cloud Cover (26 Apr 2018)

We could give her some useful information, like the fact that it was apparent to recruits that he should not have been there, and he had the presence of mind to ask to be released.  And we all know the first 3-4 weeks of Basic are a pretty intense period. So here is a guy that pulls back under stress, withdraws, keeps to himself, cannot focus enough to perform elementary personal housekeeping duties. Obviously not a fit, but many Canadians aren't. I don't know how it is now, but it used to be you could not wash out of basic except for serious injury, threat to the safety of self or others, or nervous shock.  As for using his serial number, we'll that's the identity the machine gives you at day one. You never forget it. I think the guy is a lunatic killer, that doesn't mean the CAF had anything to do with his problems.


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## Altair (26 Apr 2018)

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> We could give her some useful information, like the fact that it was apparent to recruits that he should not have been there, and he had the presence of mind to ask to be released.  And we all know the first 3-4 weeks of Basic are a pretty intense period. So here is a guy that pulls back under stress, withdraws, keeps to himself, cannot focus enough to perform elementary personal housekeeping duties. Obviously not a fit, but many Canadians aren't. I don't know how it is now, *but it used to be you could not wash out of basic except for serious injury, threat to the safety of self or others, or nervous shock.*  As for using his serial number, we'll that's the identity the machine gives you at day one. You never forget it. I think the guy is a lunatic killer, that doesn't mean the CAF had anything to do with his problems.


When I was there a few years ago, a lot of people washed out when they decided it wasn't for them, some a few days in, some a week before graduation.


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## Cloud Cover (26 Apr 2018)

That's my understanding of things as well. I was in Cornwallis for basic. It was different rules then in many respects.


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## mariomike (26 Apr 2018)

Regarding on-scene operations. Although in Toronto, it was close to the York Region border. 

York Region paramedics responded, and were of great help to Toronto.
https://twitter.com/TorontoMedics/status/988790418023354371

The fact that it was about 8 km from the scene to a Level 1 trauma centre also helped.


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## daftandbarmy (26 Apr 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> All I know about CFAT and trade assignment is what I read on here. But, it reminds me of a couple of discussions merged into our CFAT mega-thread,
> 
> What do you need to get on the CFAT for Infantry Trade?
> 
> CFAT Scoring? Minimum for Reg force Infantry?



Whatever it is, this guy was clearly not up to it.


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## medicineman (26 Apr 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> All I know about CFAT and trade assignment is what I read on here. But, it reminds me of a couple of discussions merged into our CFAT mega-thread,
> 
> What do you need to get on the CFAT for Infantry Trade?
> 
> CFAT Scoring? Minimum for Reg force Infantry?



Being assigned to the infantry simply based on CFAT scores is a bit of a twist of words I think - seen folks that could have had anything and got infantry because they asked for it.  You can't be dumb these days "and only qualify for the infantry" (IIRC, you actually need some pretty decent CFAT scores to qualify for the infantry) and can't be a total sociopath and qualify for the infantry either - quite the opposite.   I've medically examined people that qualified for infantry on the CFAT but I found to be borderline psychopathic or so emotionally blunted/immature to the point of where they'd be a risk to themselves and those around them on their own side, much less the enemy.  I'd be more interested to see how his personality test and PSel interview went, as well as what was written on the medical screening from a psych/behavioural point of view.

 :2c:

MM


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## mariomike (1 May 2018)

A little trivia regarding the call volume during the 2 hours and 15 minutes surrounding the attack.

873 calls were received for the attack alone. Call receivers spoke to 1206 people.

Not sure if that was a record for a single incident in the city. But, it is hardly surprising to read of citizens complaining the 9-1-1 lines were jammed when they attempted to call it in.


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## brihard (1 May 2018)

Given that he was apparently a proficient computer programmer, I would guess he probably did pretty well on his CFAT. I’m curious why it was that infantry appealed to him...


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## Journeyman (1 May 2018)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I’m curious why it was that infantry appealed to him...


Given his 'incel' claims, probably the Starship Troopers' shower scene....and the hopes of at least _seeing_  a naked woman.     :nod:


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## brihard (1 May 2018)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Given his 'incel' claims, probably the Starship Troopers' shower scene....and the hopes of at least _seeing_  a naked woman.     :nod:



Careful, we might inadvertently bring this back to and stoke the flames of anti-immigration sentiment... “Service guarantees citizenship!”


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## EpicBeardedMan (21 Jul 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> A little trivia regarding the call volume during the 2 hours and 15 minutes surrounding the attack.
> 
> 873 calls were received for the attack alone. Call receivers spoke to 1206 people.
> 
> Not sure if that was a record for a single incident in the city. But, it is hardly surprising to read of citizens complaining the 9-1-1 lines were jammed when they attempted to call it in.



I have no doubt all of TPS's 911 trunk lines were taken up with this. Their call volume is insane compared to ours in the Niagara Region. Were just above 69k calls for the year so far, they were at over half a million last time I spoke to one of their calltakers.


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## The Bread Guy (7 Apr 2019)

Some updates ...

_*"Case of Toronto van attack suspect Alek Minassian put over to May (7)"*_  (CBC.ca)
_*"Toronto to honour victims of Yonge Street van attack on (23 April) anniversary"*_  (globalnews.ca)
_*"Lawsuits mount against alleged van attacker"*_  (The Canadian Press)
_*" Insurer withheld payments for this 92-year-old Toronto van attack survivor’s medical care. Now its own doctors say her injuries are catastrophic"*_  (_Toronto Star_)
... and this from someone who's been down the incel road explaining how folks get sucked into (radicalized by?) such a movement - also attached if link doesn't work for you.


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## The Bread Guy (6 Jun 2019)

The latest ...


> The man accused of murdering 10 people and injuring 16 by driving a van into pedestrians on Yonge St. in April 2018 appeared in a Toronto courtroom Monday (27 May 2019) at the start of pretrial motions ahead of his trial next year.
> 
> Alek Minassian faces 10 counts of first-degree murder and 16 counts of attempted murder.
> 
> ...


More @ link


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## The Bread Guy (27 Sep 2019)

Some of the latest ….

_*"'I just floored the pedal,' Alek Minassian tells police in disturbing interview after Toronto van attack "*_ (CTV)
_*Hours after his arrest, Alek Minassian told a Toronto police detective he communicated with two mass murderers motivated by incel ideology and said the massacres they carried out inspired him to use a rented van "as a weapon" on Yonge Street]"Hours after his arrest, Alek Minassian told a Toronto police detective he communicated with two mass murderers motivated by incel ideology and said the massacres they carried out inspired him to use a rented van "as a weapon" on Yonge Street ..."*__* (CBC)
[*]"‘It was time that I stood up to the Chads and Stacys’: What the van-attack accused told Toronto police" (National Post)
[*]"EDITOR'S NOTE: Why you need to know what Alek Minassian said" (Toronto Sun)
*_
_*
… and a very short & sweet piece in the Toronto Sun, shared under the Fair Dealing provisions of Canada's Copyright Act …



			Alek Minassian joined the Canadian Armed Forces in 2017, hoping to join the infantry — the army’s go-anywhere, whatever-it-takes, combat soldiers. About two weeks after applying, he found himself at the Canadian Forces Leadership and Recruit School in St. Jean-sur-Richeliu, Quebec.

“I was interested in learning how to use weapons, specifically large guns, such as assault rifles,” he told a police detective a few hours after being arrested for the bloodiest terror attack in Toronto’s history.

He was not a good soldier. Senior military officers told the Sun Minassian was an “unexceptional” candidate. He wasn’t great, he wasn’t horrible, he wasn’t particularly memorable. “No red flags,” one officer noted.

“It was basically, a quick training withdrawal.” He just wasn’t a good fit with army life — and he felt it too.

Minassian asked to be released from the military 16 days into basic training — at which point, he would have spent most of his time learning how to wear a uniform, polish boots, make his bed, march in formation and the basics of military law, rank, saluting and tradition.

Teamwork is the foundation of everything and, always, physical training. He did not receive weapons or combat training of any kind.

“Unfortunately, I never made it far enough in my basic training to use guns,” Minassian told the police detective who interviewed him after the 2018 van attack.
		
Click to expand...

*_


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## Blackadder1916 (27 Sep 2019)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> … and a very short & sweet piece in the _Toronto Sun_, shared under the Fair Dealing provisions of Canada's Copyright Act …
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wonder what his secret was to such quick processing, the recruiting boards are filled with individuals who want to know.


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## brihard (27 Sep 2019)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Wonder what his secret was to such quick processing, the recruiting boards are filled with individuals who want to know.



Well, he obviously didn't need to clear it with the girlfriend.


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## The Bread Guy (27 Sep 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Well, he obviously didn't need to clear it with the girlfriend.


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## mariomike (27 Sep 2019)

> "I was interested in learning how to use weapons, specifically large guns, such as assault rifles,” he told a police detective a few hours after being arrested for the bloodiest terror attack in Toronto’s history.



Deadliest attack of any kind ( terror or non-terror ) in Toronto's history.


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## The Bread Guy (16 Jul 2022)

The latest 


> The man responsible for Toronto’s deadly 2018 van attack is seeking to appeal his conviction on 10 counts of first-degree murder and 16 counts of attempted murder.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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