# any info on entry plans would be appreciated



## mbhabfan (18 Aug 2004)

I am 31 married with one little girl.  I am self employed and have been for the past nine plus years.  I would like to join the forces as a pilot.  I am currently completing my ppl.  I do not have a university degree.  So this leaves the ROTP or the CEOTP (if it reopens) as my two entry plans.  The ROTP doesn't pay enough money for those three years of university to provide for my family.  I was curious to see if anyone has had any luck getting in DEO without the degree?  On the forces website it says "usually"  required when do they make an exception?  I have over nine years of management experience, and I think I have the drive and ambition to succeed as a pilot if given the opportunity.  The CEOTP would be ideal for me...get the entry and eventually get a degree as well which is something I want.  If anyone has any advice it would be greatly appreciated.  I would just like to add that this site is a great idea, I have been reading the posts for a couple of months and this is my first post but this site is great.


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## rdschultz (18 Aug 2004)

One thing you might want to consider with the DEO route is that pilot selection (or selection for any officer trade, but especially so with pilot) is quite competitive.  Because you don't have a degree, that could be the deciding factor when selection boards roll around.  This is all conjecture though, as I'm neither a recruiter, nor a member of the CF yet (give me a couple weeks and that'll change).  You'd have to talk to a recruiter and get their take on it.


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## Bograt (18 Aug 2004)

I just went through ACS in Trenton. Of the the four that made it past CAPSS, two were DEO candiates and two others were some other program. The CEOTP program I believe was axed this past April (new fiscal year). The two non DEO candidates were trying for a new program were DND pays for you to go to university prior to entering training. Both were kids (20-21) and four years to them was "forever". The average age for a DEO is 32. I believe Moncton Flight School, and Abotsfered offer a aviation degree (diploma) that after completion you are exempt from ACS and after BOTC you will go directly to primarly flight training. Also, if things don't work out in the military, you will have your Commercial and Multi ifr ratings. I would suggest that this probably is the best route.

Ask your recruiter, and if they don't know ask someone else.


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## mbhabfan (18 Aug 2004)

The problem I run into is that with a wife and kid it is too costly to shut down my business and attend classes for three years.  I am very interested in a degree just can't figure out the financial part of little or no income for three years.  I have found that in talking with recruiting there are several very different opinions as to my best course.  One day it is one thing another day it is another.


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## Bograt (18 Aug 2004)

My only suggestion now is to get started. Take the officer exam, initial medial, interview and physical now. Get the ball rolling now so that you can atleast get a ACS date. Then they know your serious about it and hopefully they will start providing you with the solid answers you need.

My daughter is two, and my wife and I are expecting another in March. I understand what you going through. If you want it bad enough you can make it happen.

Cheers,


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## mbhabfan (18 Aug 2004)

I was under the impression from the cfrc Winnipeg that I wouldn't be able to do any of the above until they were taking applications for the pilot occupation.  So I can apply now and do the initial officer exam and the medical right away?  The recruiting officers aren't going to divulge any more information than they have to are they.


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## Bograt (19 Aug 2004)

It seems like you are having some challenges with the Recruiting people. The airforce currently is 80 pilots short this year in its recruiting goals. Last year they were 260+ short in their recruiting goals. So, they <u>are</u> taking on new applicants. Regardless, request to aleast start the process of enlistment ie taking the officer exam, and interviews medicals, security checks etc... I would suggest get the process going as soon as you can because it does take some time to get it worked through the system. I know that there is a program where they pay you to go to university- three of the guys on my ACS were under that program. I don't recall the name however.

On a personal note, I would encourage you if you haven't already, to have a real heart to heart with your partner. Make sure that all of the questions are answered and that both of you know what to expect. It is easier when your family is fully behind you- there are a lot of bumps along this road and you want to make sure everyone is willing to travel down this direction.

Cheers,


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## mbhabfan (19 Aug 2004)

Bog thanks for the help.  My wife supports this 110% she has been really great about everything.  She is a health information analyst and she would look for a civ job someday.  You have been a great help thanks again for the information.


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## I_Drive_Planes (20 Aug 2004)

I'm presently doing my degree by correspondance with the British Columbia Open University.  I don't have the time right now to go to a regular school.  Also there are lots of universities that offer distance ed, and web based courses.  I was one of the people who got nailed when they axed ceotp so for me starting the degree now is a way to look good when I apply for rotp later this year (and hopefully finish my degree in a "normal" university.  The BCOU courses in a way are a lot nicer than traditional university courses, you can work at your own pace, on your own time, and they also have lots of support.  You have to be very disciplined though, because there's nobody to give you hell if you don't do the work.

Just a thought, but there are ways to get a degree without actually going to school.

Brodie

P.S. Good luck on your PPL, I just finished mine in april, and the recruiting folks tell me that it looks really good on the application.


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## DrSize (20 Aug 2004)

I_Drive_Planes said:
			
		

> Just a thought, but there are ways to get a degree without actually going to school.



Exactly...good point.  Athabasca has a great distance ed program, I would say the best or most well known in Canada.  They offer plenty of degrees and you can work at your own pace.  Depending how hard of a worker you are you could finish your degree in less than 4 years.....


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## mbhabfan (20 Aug 2004)

In four years I would also be 35 do you think I would still be a realistic candidate for a pilot in the Canadian forces?  I have no problem with having to take the degree, I just don't think I have the four years to wait.  I have given Athabasca thought already.  I have also considered the ROTP program but it pays approximately 800 per month.  There is no way I can swing that with a family for the next three or four years.


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## Zoomie (20 Aug 2004)

A buddy of mine is in his mid-forties, and he just finished up his Pilot training.  For the entire four years that he was undergoing training (not University - just training) he was supporting his wife and daughter on OCdt's salary (which is not much).  I found it challenging making it through my four years of pilot training as a 2Lt.  Unless your wife is pulling in some good coin, you will be living pay cheque to pay cheque.  Heck, I am still doing that now as a 1st incentive Captain (pilot).

You must be prepared to take the lumps when you join the CF with dependants.  You will not be paid a sufficient salary for quite a few years in order to support a family.  Not to dissuade you, but be prepared to cut coupons, go without and live in military housing <not too bad> while waiting for those coveted wings. 

So don't let age be a factor in your decision.  Your lack of a degree is definately your largest road-block.  If CEOTP is closed, you need to have at least a 3 year degree from an accredited looniversity.


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## Bograt (20 Aug 2004)

Zoomie,

I just read your post. <gulp> Why was he on O'cdt salary while undergoing pilot training? I am married and will have 2 children by the time I go to Portage. We are not planning to sell the house and move the family until MooseJaw. Is this smart? Can you give any accounts on what others in my circumstance have done in the past.

My wife is a music teacher... do they have schools in Portage..  Seriously do you have any idea if it is difficult for partners to find work. I'm not sure what do to regarding the homestead. Obviuously, picking up the family to go to Portage for Basic is not in the cards, but should I wait until advanced before I move the family? How long is it taking guys to get the courses needed to get their wings?


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## DrSize (20 Aug 2004)

35 is still relatively young.....you could do your 20 years service and collect a full pension and only be 55.  I think around 55 is when you are encouraged to call it a career, it may be 60 now though???Possibly look into 3 year degrees that could knock a year off as well



			
				mbhabfan said:
			
		

> In four years I would also be 35 do you think I would still be a realistic candidate for a pilot in the Canadian forces?   I have no problem with having to take the degree, I just don't think I have the four years to wait.   I have given Athabasca thought already.   I have also considered the ROTP program but it pays approximately 800 per month.   There is no way I can swing that with a family for the next three or four years.


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## Zoomie (20 Aug 2004)

Bograt said:
			
		

> Why was he on O'cdt salary while undergoing pilot training?



CEOTP applicants were all OCdts, I think they might have changed that by now.

Wait until Moose Jaw to determine if you want to move out there.  Portage is only 8 weeks...  If you already have a home, I would suggest you keep it.  Keep your wife in her job and your kids in their school.  They will most likely miss Daddy while you are gone for 8-10 months in Moose Jaw.  As long as you aren't interested in becoming a fighter jock, this strategy works best.  If you keep your family at home, you will be posted to MJ and receive free R&Q (rations and quarters) and also receive a Separation Expense from the crown (approx $10/day).  You will also be able to claim LTA (leave travel allowance) which will provide you with monies in order to travel home once a fiscal year.  I know quite a few people who took this route (including my 40 year old friend) - their marriages survived the separation and you won't have to subject the family to Moose Jaw living  .


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## Born2Fly (21 Aug 2004)

> A buddy of mine is in his mid-forties, and he just finished up his Pilot training.   For the entire four years that he was undergoing training (not University - just training) he was supporting his wife and daughter on OCdt's salary (which is not much).   I found it challenging making it through my four years of pilot training as a 2Lt.




A question about that. Are promotions really slow in the Pilot MOC? I know you make your way to Lt. once you get your wings, so it all comes down to course timing. But 4 years as an OCdt/2Lt? That's a long time.




> Unless your wife is pulling in some good coin, you will be living pay cheque to pay cheque.   Heck, I am still doing that now as a 1st incentive Captain (pilot).



Wow. I always thought $60,000+ would go farther than it does now, I guess.


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## Inch (29 Aug 2004)

The reason you stay as a OCdt/2Lt until you get your wings is because they can't promote you beyond that until you're MOC qualified (wings standard).   I was a 2Lt for 4 years due to training delays, once I got my wings I went right to Capt with just under $22,000 in retro pay. You have to spend 1yr as a 2Lt and 2 yrs as a Lt.   If you're MOC qualified before your 3 years is up, you're a winged Lt, if the 3 years is up, you go right to Capt.   You still get retro paid based on the 1yr 2Lt/ 2yr Lt timeline. 

Dr Size, 20 yrs isn't a full pension, it's not possible to get a full pension (depending on your def'n of what a full pension is).   You get 2% per year of service with a min of 20yrs which will be changing to 25yrs in Jan.   So for a 20yr career, you'll get 40% of your 5 highest paid years, ie. 5 yrs at $100,000 x 40%= $40,000/yr pension. 35 yrs or 70% is the max pensionable time, so since I was 20 when I got in, 35yrs will put me to 55 years of age, there's no point in me extending to 60yrs of age since my pension won't increase beyond the 70%.

Another point on leaving your family where they are until you're done training, in addition to the separation expense, you'll also get post living differential, the rate depends on where you live, Halifax is $192/month and the rates vary across the country depending on the cost of living, Toronto is the in the $1000/month neighbourhood and other places are as low as $40/month.

Hope that answers some questions.

Cheers


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## carpediem (29 Aug 2004)

Inch, you said "Another point on leaving your family where they are until you're done training, in addition to the separation expense, you'll also get post living differential, the rate depends on where you live, Halifax is $192/month and the rates vary across the country depending on the cost of living, Toronto is the in the $1000/month neighbourhood and other places are as low as $40/month"

Do you get this "'post living differential" while you are doing BOT and Second Language Training in St. Jean and the Phase 1 (?) flying training in Portage?


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## Inch (29 Aug 2004)

If your primary residence is in an area where there is a PLD rate specified, you get it, ie. your wife and family stay in Toronto while you're on courses, you'll get PLD for Toronto.  I own a condo in Halifax, even if I go somewhere else for courses or whatnot, I still get the Halifax PLD until I get posted or sell my place and move into government housing.  

The old guy that Zoomie mentioned, his wife and daughter stayed in their house in Montreal while he was training.  He got PLD for Montreal even though he was in Moose Jaw & Portage for almost 2 years. 

There are some stipulations on it though, you may be asked to produce a lease or copy of your mortgage, since it's a pretty hard sell to get PLD if you don't actually own or rent in an area.

Clear as mud?  

Cheers


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## Inch (29 Aug 2004)

carpediem, I just read your profile and thought of another point to clarify. PLD is the new revised Accommodation Assistance allowance or AAA, I believe PLD just came about very late in the 90's, maybe even 2000, I enrolled in the reg force in 99 and it was called AAA.   The PLD is supposed to be a little fairer or what have you with how it is given out and what particular rates are given than triple "A" was. 

I could be mistaken, but I think you have to be regular force to get it, something to do with the whole posting thing that reservists don't have to worry about.

Cheers


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## mbhabfan (31 Aug 2004)

under the ROTP can anyone tell me the wages if I were to be accepted?  I think it is $800 or so a month.  Is this accurate?  It doesn't matter which way I add it up I can't live on that a month with a wife and kid.  Has anyone heard if the CEOTP will reopen?


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## Garbageman (31 Aug 2004)

mbhabfan said:
			
		

> under the ROTP can anyone tell me the wages if I were to be accepted?   I think it is $800 or so a month.   Is this accurate?   It doesn't matter which way I add it up I can't live on that a month with a wife and kid.   Has anyone heard if the CEOTP will reopen?


More like $1000/month, but you're not far off.  Isn't exactly the most appealing to someone who's already established I know, but I guess you have to look at the opportunity costs (i.e. free degree) as well.

If you go to a school in the same city as a base, you can apply for military housing.  Might cut down the bills a bit.


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## WannaBeFlyer (18 Nov 2004)

mbhabfan, 

I am in a similar spot. I am 29; fit as a fiddle and have flying time on my PPL. The CEOTP closed on me as well (thought it was too good to be true!). I was reallly disappointed and almost threw in the towel. Instead I decided to go to University part-time working on a three year degree and continue with my private license on my own time. (and call the recruiting centre every two weeks or so :-[). If it doesn't work out with the Forces, I will have a degree and hopefully all of my ratings which I can take elsewhere. 

I guess the reason I am posting here is two fold. I would like to thank the pro's who have posted and given some stories relating to age. It is really encouraging to hear that some in their mid to late thirties are being accepted. I get discouraged from time to time since I am not a young recruit fresh out of High School with credits in Physics, Math and Science. Second, I agree with you regarding the Recruiters. I appreciate that they have a lot of programs to be aware of however, they can't seem to support the web site or advertisements that posts the career options. I remember going in to ask about the CEOTP (which was posted on the web site) and they told me it was closed. It remained posted on the site for quite some time after! I asked about applying as an Aivation Systems Technician and then applying to transfer to Pilot  - one said "Sure! you can do that" the other "I would NOT recommend that". the latter seems to be supported by many.

Thanks again for the posts guys!


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## mbhabfan (18 Nov 2004)

I think the recruiters like to offer re mustering as an option, however I think it is like seeing a Big Foot, sure they might exist but you will never see one.  Does anyone know of someone who has been accepted under the Ceotp for any occupation?


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## Bograt (18 Nov 2004)

After washing out of my first attempt through ACS I asked about joining as ATC and remustering. CFRC frowned on that and so did friends and family already in the military. You don't want to join then go through the training of a program you don't want to have as a career, because there is a chance you would not be able to transfer or a chance you won't make it through ACS or the medical.

Plus in your case, you still need to have a degree.

I am 31, and waiting for the board's announcement (this week). How bad do you want it? How hard are you willing to work for it? What are you willing to do to get it? These are all questions I asked myself. Nothing focused my mind more than having to live with the regret of not giving this chance all my effort. Waking up and being 52 and living with the "what ifs" got me through a lot of rough nights during the past 18 months.

Good luck guys. Whether you think you can or you can't- your absolutely right.


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## WannaBeFlyer (18 Nov 2004)

Not through CEOTP but I know of two who went through DEO. 

One completed Basic and has been waiting a LONG time to get the call to come back. I think he was done last spring and has been twiddling his thumbs ever since. 

The second washed out during initial flight training (he had no air time) and was told to come back when he completed his PPL. He is actually quite happy as a Captain in the Infantry now...

I guess this is another point to consider - what if you don't make it past the initial flight training. They must fill a lot of other positions with people aspiring to transfer to pilot. I know I have considered it. 

Thanks Bograt! (And you are right about the "what if's"!) Good Luck to you too & keep us posted!  ;D

L8R


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## Inch (18 Nov 2004)

If you fail out of Moose Juice or Portage (PFT or AFT), you'll be offered quite a few different trades.  In my travels I've met quite a few people that didn't make it to wings standard that were quite happy in their "new" careers. 



			
				WannaBeFlyer said:
			
		

> One completed Basic and has been waiting a LONG time to get the call to come back. I think he was done last spring and has been twiddling his thumbs ever since.



You call last spring a LONG wait? Myself and Zoomie waited in excess of 18 months, not sure exactly for him but I waited 20 months between French and Moose Juice. Just be thankful the system is moving now, I was a 2Lt for 4 years due to the wait.

On the CEOTP front, I know quite a few guys that got in on that entry plan. Mine was a version of it called the Community College Entry Plan (Pilot) or CCEP, the difference between CCEP and CEOTP is that I got my commission once BOTC was finished, CEOTP's are OCdts until they're MOC qualified. Now all of this happened in 98/99 and the program has been closed for a few years now. I almost got in when I was 18 under OCTP but it closed just before I applied.

Bograt, that's some good advice, it's a long long road, but believe me, it's worth it and then some!  ;D 

Cheers


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## Harley123 (2 Jan 2005)

"One completed Basic and has been waiting a LONG time to get the call to come back. I think he was done last spring and has been twiddling his thumbs ever since. 

The second washed out during initial flight training (he had no air time) and was told to come back when he completed his PPL. He is actually quite happy as a Captain in the Infantry now..."




If you wash out in PFT and the other positions don't appeal, can you leave the forces? I   haven't thought much about anything except pilot and didn't choose a second option in my application. I'd consider other trades but moving the family around for something other than pilot may be too hard for them to swallow. 

Also, while waiting for PFT, are you posted back home or sent to a base? I'm from Ottawa.  

Lots of great information on this site!!   I'm heading to BOT in Jan & have been checking the forums out regularly.


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## Zoomie (2 Jan 2005)

In between courses you will be able to find gainable employment in the Ottawa area.  412 Squadron is based at the airport and NDHQ is always looking for a new photocopier King or mail-room attendant.    >

I highly recommend that you do not move your family anywhere until you are finished Pilot training and posted to your first operational squadron.  The longest time away from home will be your stint at 15 Wing Moose Jaw - BFT lasts between 8-10 months.  Having the option to go home to your family and not be stuck in Moose Jaw is a good one - I suggest you take it.  Just tell WO Dowd at 1 CAD that you want to go on an Imposed Restriction to MJ.

If you wash out of Pilot training - you may leave the CF...  They will try and offer you alternate jobs - think long and hard before refusing.  Keep in mind that working for the CF has its ups and down.  Job security and good benefits for the family are high on this list - working 24/7 without overtime are some examples of negatives.

Good luck at St-Jean


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## Harley123 (3 Jan 2005)

Thanks Zoomie - good advice.

For anyone else out there over 30 who's wondering about applying for pilot. I'm 41, have a PPL but not significant hours under my belt. Made it through air crew selection. Now it's up to me to make it through the rest. Don't wait!!


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## mbhabfan (3 Jan 2005)

Harley what is your degree in if you don't mind me asking?


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## Harley123 (4 Jan 2005)

No Problem. General Bachelor of Mathematics - my courses were primarily in business admin & computer science.


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## WannaBeFlyer (6 Jan 2005)

Congrats Harley123!! 

Thanks for the encouragement and good luck with your training!


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## Harley123 (6 Jan 2005)

Thanks for congrats but, as things happen some last minute mysterious medical information has come back from Downsview and my enrollment has been postponed. Since I passed the fit test on Tuesday  & was supposed to be sworn in tomorrow it came as a big shock. Anyhow - I was pleased to have made it as far as I did. I met some great people at Ottawa CFRC & Trenton and can be happy that I did the best that I could. And who knows, the way things are going, maybe I'll get some last minute GOOD news...


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## WannaBeFlyer (10 Jan 2005)

Harley123,

Sorry to hear the bad news. Hopefully you will get that "last minute good news"! 

Keep us posted!


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## Esser (9 May 2005)

I know this thread is a little old but here goes. Pretty much I've allways wanted to be a pilot. Alot of you know the bug I have. I really jsut want some clarity on my options. 

I realize that ROTP at RMC is the most obvious option, but unfortunatly my grades are not that competitive. Does being in Air Cadets for 6 years, being a WO1, getting your power, and glider license contribute enough to your application to weigh out grades? How about other things such as international exchange to Germany or being in the reserves?  Also is CEOTP still offered for pilot?

If you are accepted to a civi university can you be subsidized under ROTP? Or does the military decide if you go RMC or civi? In the joining instructions it says you must be at least working to a degree and I was wondering if that means you get subsidized.

Also if I don't make the ROTP is there a good chance that I will be accepted under the DEO?

Does it really matter what degree you get to become a pilot? To me the whole degree thing seems a little over the top, after all, great pilots like Chuck Yeager and George Beurling didn't have good educations. I see why they do it though. The reason I'm asking is because I don't want to be left in the cold when I come with a degree in German when they only want mechanical engineers.

Any help would be great. Thanks Alot.
         ​


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## WannaBeFlyer (9 May 2005)

Esser, 

I also had a lot of questions about becoming a Pilot that were answered simply by reading the posts of others. I would suggest typing your questions into the "Search" area or visiting the "Recruiting" forum on this site. All  of your questions have been answered in previous threads by both Pilots and Recruiters.

Good Luck!


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