# Pay FY 07/08



## jc5778 (19 Mar 2007)

Silly question, searched but to no avail, did the increase this FY (Fiscal Year)  only cover this year?  Are we playing the waiting game again with regards to pay for 07/08?  Or was it set last year?  Seems we wait every year.

Cheers!


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## Inch (19 Mar 2007)

Round and round we go.

Every year someone asks this question and every year the same answer comes out. Nothing in the CANFORGEN mentioned a pay raise for FY 07/08. So, until you see a CANFORGEN mentioning a raise for FY 07/08, then you can assume we aren't getting one.


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## PO2FinClk (19 Mar 2007)

7 - 10 days said:
			
		

> Silly question, searched but to no avail, did the increase this FY (Fiscal Year)  only cover this year?  Are we playing the waiting game again with regards to pay for 07/08?  Or was it set last year?  Seems we wait every year.
> 
> Cheers!


Last pay increase was effective 01 Apr 06, and no messages was released announcing any other raise. Am therefore not sure what you are asking for.


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## armyvern (19 Mar 2007)

Me thinks someone is just assuming that we get a pay raise every year.

This thread may be his awakening to the fact that we do not!!

Whatever the case, I'm willing to lay odds that the exact same question is posed around this time next year!!!  ;D

Vern


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## Nfld Sapper (19 Mar 2007)

I'll start taking the bets Vern  ;D


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## JesseWZ (19 Mar 2007)

Seeings as how I just lost placing bets on George's 10 000th post I'm not taking this one.


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## PO2FinClk (19 Mar 2007)

I will say that we will here something through official channels around the Sep/Oct timeframe.


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## x-zipperhead (21 Mar 2007)

7-10,

I know what you were getting at.  I can remember some pay raises years ago where in one message they would announce a raise of X% for FY X, and Y% for FY Y and Z% for FY Z.  That wasn't the case last year.  It was anounced for FY06/07 and that's it.


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## x-zipperhead (22 Mar 2007)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> Me thinks someone is just assuming that we get a pay raise every year.
> 
> This thread may be his awakening to the fact that we do not!!
> 
> ...




If you take a look at this table of historic pay rates, you will see that we have indeed had a pay raise every singly FY since April 96.  I agree that a pay raise is not a sure thing but I wouldn't say that 7-10's assumption was that far out in left field.


http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dgcb/dppd/pay/engraph/204.30_e.asp?sidesection=3&sidecat=28&alt=N&key=CORPORAL


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## PO2FinClk (22 Mar 2007)

Yes, every pay raise was _effective_ 01 April, and actually it goes much further back then 96, more like the 60's-70's. The issue here is when was information about a pay raise released, out of all the raises from 96 on every single one was done either retro-actively or was pre-approved via message.

In short, if something regarding a pay raise were to come out by the end of March, it would be far more a surprise then anything else. This is not to say impossible, simply very unlikely. So there really is no point in asking as the answer would only be based on rumour and speculation possibly raising empty hopes.


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## PO2FinClk (22 Mar 2007)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> I'm willing to lay odds that the exact same question is posed around this time next year!!!  ;D


Is there a year where this did not happen? ;D


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## 211RadOp (22 Mar 2007)

You will also not that in '97 and '99 we got two. If you click on the radio button for Historic rates, it will show that with the exception of FYs 93/94 to 95/96, we have had atleast one pay raise since 71.


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## x-zipperhead (22 Mar 2007)

PO2FinClk said:
			
		

> Yes, every pay raise was _effective_ 01 April, and actually it goes much further back then 96, more like the 60's-70's. The issue here is when was information about a pay raise released,



Agreed, I don't expect to hear anything soon.



			
				PO2FinClk said:
			
		

> out of all the raises from 96 on every single one was done either retro-actively or was pre-approved  via message.



Which is exactly what I believe 7-10's question was.  Not that long ago we got pre-approved messages covering 3 fiscal years.  Not to put words in 7-10's mouth but I believe that was all he was asking,  if last years message covered more than FY06/07(which we know it did not).  Not that crazy a question IMO since it has been done before.



			
				PO2FinClk said:
			
		

> In short, if something regarding a pay raise were to come out by the end of March, it would be far more a surprise then anything else. This is not to say impossible, simply very unlikely. So there really is no point in asking as the answer would only be based on rumour and speculation possibly raising empty hopes.



Very much agreed. Though,  I think he was simply asking if it was covered in the last message.


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## geo (22 Mar 2007)

I believe that the public service alliance's contract is coming up for renewal... this year.
So, though the treasury board will have a % in mind for the ncreasses that will come out for the next 3 years, it hasn't been set AND because the CF's pay rates are joined at the hip to theirs..... ours hasn,t been set either.

Short answer - don't hold your breath! It'll be a while


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## armyvern (23 Mar 2007)

Yeah,

I remember all those "raises" way back when. They were mostly due to the standard _cost of living_ increase that was a given annually to go with that inflation rate.


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## SweetNavyJustice (23 Mar 2007)

On the note of our raises being tied directly to what PSAC gets - remember when they go on strike to egg them on to stay out longer and hold out for more... ;D


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## geo (23 Mar 2007)

......... like I said, don't hold your breath


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## 404SqnAVSTeach (7 Apr 2007)

Just wondering if there was an announcement about a pay raise for this fiscal year?  People have been speculating at work, but I have yet to see anything official.  Just curious.

Thanks in Advance.


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## George Wallace (7 Apr 2007)

Been answered - SEARCH


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## 404SqnAVSTeach (7 Apr 2007)

I did a big seach and I am back here after 3 pages !!!! Could somebody point me in the right direction.


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## George Wallace (7 Apr 2007)

The last posts on this subject......not more than a week or two ago, have said that there has been NO ANNOUNCEMENT.  As such, until you see a CANFORGEN, don't start rumourmongering.


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## 284_226 (7 Apr 2007)

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/58972.0/all.html


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## George Wallace (7 Apr 2007)

Thanks 284_226.

I knew it was here somewhere.


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## geo (7 Apr 2007)

404.....
If you look at my post #13.... it says it all.


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## 284_226 (7 Apr 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> 404.....
> If you look at my post #13.... it says it all.



Yup, it does.  According to http://www.psac.com/news/releases/2005/03-0105-e.shtml, all Tables of PSAC have their collective agreements expire in June and Aug of 2007.  Assuming they don't come to a new agreement before they expire, there will be the obligatory phase of chest-thumping, and then the "threats of job action" phase, followed by the strike phase....   ;D


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## PO2FinClk (7 Apr 2007)

404SqnAVSTeach said:
			
		

> I did a big seach and I am back here after 3 pages !!!! Could somebody point me in the right direction.


If you don't see a CANFORGEN, then it has not been announced, that simple, anything else is rumours and nothing else. But don't hold your breath as IF it happens it would not likely to be until mid FY. 

Besides, at best it would be somewhere along the lines of 3% anyways (judging by historical data), nothing to get all hot and bothered about. But that is just my guess, not based on any hard facts. Anything else you here would be just that, a best guess.

Keep looking at CANFORGENS and when and if  it happens you will see it there.


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## Tewkster (12 Jun 2007)

The latest canforgen can be viewed at:

http://vcds.mil.ca/vcds-exec/pubs/canforgen/2007/102-07_e.asp


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## PO2FinClk (14 Jun 2007)

PO2FinClk said:
			
		

> I will say that we will here something through official channels around the Sep/Oct timeframe.


Guess I was off by a few months but at least I wasn't completly off:


> EXPECT TO BE IN A POSITION TO PROVIDE AN UPDATE ON COLLECTIVE BARGAINING RESULTS IN THE PUBLIC SERVICE IN THE SEP-OCT 07 TIMEFRAME


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## armyvern (14 Jun 2007)

PO2FinClk said:
			
		

> Guess I was off by a few months but at least I wasn't completly off:



No you weren't, not really. It'll be the Sept/Oct timeframe when the bargaining is done ... and we hear officially how much we're going to get.


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## RetiredRoyal (22 Jun 2007)

211RadOp said:
			
		

> with the exception of FYs 93/94 to 95/96



Weren't those great years....'they' ordered a pay freeze on teh military and then voted themselves a huge increase...politicians....shoulda become one.


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## PO2FinClk (22 Jun 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> No you weren't, not really. It'll be the Sept/Oct timeframe when the bargaining is done ... and we hear officially how much we're going to get.


I was not expecting to see any message on the issue until Sep/Oct so seeing it this early was a nice surprise. But yes it would be a very safe bet that no amounts will be announced until then at the earliest. Although bargianing is done, some further delay must be expected to approve the CF raise.


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## Northern Ranger (22 Jun 2007)

284_226 said:
			
		

> Yup, it does.  According to http://www.psac.com/news/releases/2005/03-0105-e.shtml, all Tables of PSAC have their collective agreements expire in June and Aug of 2007.  Assuming they don't come to a new agreement before they expire, there will be the obligatory phase of chest-thumping, and then the "threats of job action" phase, followed by the strike phase....   ;D



Currently I am moving over to the Public Service (starting in 2 weeks   ;D) I asked if we had a strike looming and the reply from my HR Rep was that the union and the Govt Reps (TB?) have already started talking (few weeks ago) this is a first as they usually don't sit until after a contract is up.  She felt positive that  something would be offered up to the unions prior to the fall.  I hope they figure something out so the CF can sort things out.


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## armyvern (23 Jun 2007)

PO2FinClk said:
			
		

> I was not expecting to see any message on the issue until Sep/Oct so seeing it this early was a nice surprise. But yes it would be a very safe bet that no amounts will be announced until then at the earliest. Although bargianing is done, some further delay must be expected to approve the CF raise.



Not all the bargaining is done yet, a couple of my civ employees belong to a Table that is still negotiating. No headway on that Table, my prediction is for (if they do 'roaming pickets' like last time) August walk-out, right in the middle of Roto AAGs/ARCON. I suspect that's when it'll affect this area most.


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## Nfld Sapper (24 Jun 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Not all the bargaining is done yet, a couple of my civ employees belong to a Table that is still negotiating. No headway on that Table, my prediction is for (if they do 'roaming pickets' like last time) August walk-out, right in the middle of Roto AAGs/ARCON. I suspect that's when it'll affect this area most.



Thought there was no ARCON this year Vern.


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## CdnArtyWife (24 Jun 2007)

My favorite was when they did the roaming pickets in the middle of the BASF in Gagetown...that was fun.

A friend of mine got lazy on PT day and just wore her combat shirt and field cap over her pt gear...so she was in shorts and sneakers from the waist down. When they stopped her at the gate they asked her if some poor bloke who's wife dropped him off at the gate could catch a ride the rest of the way with her. When he got in the car and saw her "uniform" they both had a great laugh.

/hijack


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## armyvern (24 Jun 2007)

Nfld Sapper said:
			
		

> Thought there was no ARCON this year Vern.



My, my, my,  ... what they neglect to pass on to some of us ....


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## LineJumper (25 Jun 2007)

I'm sure this raise will be as nominal as all in the past. If people want more loot, they should get into the civil sector.


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## Nfld Sapper (25 Jun 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> My, my, my,  ... what they neglect to pass on to some of us ....



LOL I guess that's what I get for being an instructor at a school  ;D


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## Stokers_Rule (16 Oct 2007)

LineJumper said:
			
		

> I'm sure this raise will be as nominal as all in the past. If people want more loot, they should get into the civil sector.


I'll take the "nominal" raise. Should make a difference of about a case of beer a month when I'm retired.  Plus the backpay will buy my new shotgun. ;D

I'm hearing we may be looking at the new year for the Public Service to get all settled up.  Anyone hear any different?


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## 404SqnAVSTeach (17 Oct 2007)

Stokers_Rule said:
			
		

> I'll take the "nominal" raise. Should make a difference of about a case of beer a month when I'm retired.  Plus the backpay will buy my new shotgun. ;D
> 
> I'm hearing we may be looking at the new year for the Public Service to get all settled up.  Anyone hear any different?



I heard the same too.   Our ETO section heard that we are supposed to get 2% close to xmas. I is supposed to be retro from the 1st of april.  _*but that is a rumour*_ PLZ don't quote me on this.  I am not holding my breath either.


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## geo (17 Oct 2007)

Retro will happen, as it always happens - back to the start of the fiscal year... WRT the % increase, there is absolutely NO indication of what it will be.  The Public Servants are in negociations for their new contract.  What they get - we will get.


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## 404SqnAVSTeach (17 Oct 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> Retro will happen, as it always happens - back to the start of the fiscal year... WRT the % increase, there is absolutely NO indication of what it will be.  The Public Servants are in negotiations for their new contract.  What they get - we will get.



I totally agree, my above mentioned is only a rumour at my personnel's office (ETO).  They are talking of 2% at xmas, and the rest when the public servant have settle.  BUT... and a big BUT... this is only a rumour.


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## BinRat55 (7 Nov 2007)

Google "Hillier pay raise" - see article in TO Star:

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/271044

Not related to our "pending" pay increase, but interesting info all the same...


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## armyvern (7 Nov 2007)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Google "Hillier pay raise" - see article in TO Star:
> 
> http://www.thestar.com/News/article/271044
> 
> Not related to our "pending" pay increase, but interesting info all the same...



He's worth every single penny of it too Jim.


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## PO2FinClk (7 Nov 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> Retro will happen, as it always happens


And as was stated in a CANFORGEN earlier this year.


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## BinRat55 (10 Nov 2007)

> He's worth every single penny of it too Jim.



I agree fully - he's my hero dontcha know   !!  I just wish sometimes that I could get accelerated from Sgt to General - couple more bucks per month  :crybaby: !!! 

We Shall Remember


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## geo (10 Nov 2007)

Binrat... no you don't... just think of all those taxes you'd be paying.

I refuse to accept the appointment of CDS, I will not pay any more taxes than I am paying at presetn!


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## vincent.escanlar (10 Nov 2007)

I got this email yesterday (apologies if already posted):



> Below are the... high points and significant changes that were announced at the subj conference earlier this week...
> 
> 1. PAY RAISE - the pay raise is coming, but most likely not before Christmas.
> 
> ...


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## AndrewB2020 (11 Nov 2007)

No PLD?? Dang 16 bucks a month here in Kingston - guess I'll have to pimp myself out now to buy my coffee in the morning. ;D


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## Scoobie Newbie (11 Nov 2007)

who did you get this email from?


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## aesop081 (11 Nov 2007)

> 4. PLD RE-RATIONALIZATION - PLD will be changing in the near future.  Ottawa will become the "standard" city in Canada and will receive $0 PLD.  Any geographical area that has a lower cost of living than Ottawa will also get $0 PLD.  Any geographical area with a higher cost of living than Ottawa will get the difference between Ottawa and that region's cost of living.  This will be phased in over three years (reduced by 1/3 each year until it is at the new and improved level). Officer's PLD reduction will start 1 Apr 08, NCM PLD reduction will start 1 Apr 09.  Pers posted to a new location will get the new and improved level immediately.



I got the same information about a month ago from the WCOMD out here


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## armyvern (11 Nov 2007)

That's the same status update/info that were released here.


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## JesseWZ (11 Nov 2007)

Am I correct in assuming that Winnipegs cost of living is lower than Ottawas?


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## Scoobie Newbie (11 Nov 2007)

I guess those in Edmonton are SOL again.


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## HItorMiss (11 Nov 2007)

LWQ I think maybe this might add PLD to Edmonton, there is no way the Edmonton has the same cost of living as Ottawa.


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## JBoyd (11 Nov 2007)

What is Ottawa's cost of living like anyways?


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## Scoobie Newbie (11 Nov 2007)

I would think that Ottawa would have a high standard of living and if that is now zero I wonder how Edmonton would fare next to Ottawa.


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## Inch (11 Nov 2007)

> 3. ENVIRONMENTAL ALLOWANCE EQUITY - Accumulated seniority with environmental allowances will be transferable.  If you have five years SDA and you are posted to a designated field unit, you will have five years time credit to FEA. (good news for purple trades).



Ok, now I'm confused. Does this mean that since I'm double dipping with Aircrew and Sea pay that I'll go to the 5 year rate as soon as my cumulative time drawing both of them equals 5 years? If this is the case, it's going to be great being in Maritime Helicopters!


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## Zoomie (11 Nov 2007)

Inch said:
			
		

> <snip>that since I'm double dipping with Aircrew and Sea pay that I'll go to the 5 year rate as soon as my cumulative time drawing both of them equals 5 years?



Aircrew Allowance is not an environmental allowance - so I don't think it works that way.


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## Inch (11 Nov 2007)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> Aircrew Allowance is not an environmental allowance - so I don't think it works that way.



Uh, you sure about that?

It falls under CBI 205 Section 2 - Environmental Allowances.


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## Zoomie (11 Nov 2007)

If this does become cumulative - there are going to be some happy Divers, SARTechs, MH aircrew, etc etc.  I think the system will catch on and not allow it to happen.

Sea Duty Allowance and Field Environmental Allowance are ubiquitous to all trades - if you serve on a boat, you get it.  Aircrew, Parachute, Diver's, etc allowance are all trade respective and thus would have their own progression level separate from others.


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## Inch (11 Nov 2007)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> If this does become cumulative - there are going to be some happy Divers, SARTechs, MH aircrew, etc etc.  I think the system will catch on and not allow it to happen.
> 
> Sea Duty Allowance and Field Environmental Allowance are ubiquitous to all trades - if you serve on a boat, you get it.  Aircrew, Parachute, Diver's, etc allowance are all trade respective and thus would have their own progression level separate from others.



Regardless of who is eligible to receive the allowance, it's still in the Environmental Allowance section of CBI's, not a separate section like Risk or Hazard allowances.


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## Zoomie (11 Nov 2007)

Inch said:
			
		

> it's still in the Environmental Allowance section of CBI's,



Sigh... Ok - well, hope it all works out for you guys.   :


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## vincent.escanlar (11 Nov 2007)

Lone Wolf Quagmire said:
			
		

> who did you get this email from?



It was sent out by our friendly neighbourhood clerk; I've never actually met the man but he does a good job keeping us in the loop I think.  With the usual "awaiting formal announcement" caveat, of course, but from the other posts it looks like this is old news... sorry for the redundancy.  [back to lurking]


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## Scoobie Newbie (11 Nov 2007)

Hey I appreciate something formal and it sounds like its professional.


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## PO2FinClk (12 Nov 2007)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> Aircrew Allowance is not an environmental allowance - so I don't think it works that way.


Incorrect, Aircrew Allowance IS an Environmental Allowance, same as Sea Duty Allowance or FEA/FOA. 

Some provisions will obviously be establish clarity in those in receipt of 2 allowance such as those within TacHel or MarHel. As well clarity will have to be provided for the other Environmental Allowances such as PARA, RESCUE, SUBA & DIVA.


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## Armymedic (22 Nov 2007)

Global National has just reported that the government will scrap the post differential allowance for certain bases.

In their report, they cite Toronto, Ottawa, and Halifax as cities where the allowance will be cut. Valcartier is said to be one of the cities where the allowance will be maintained.

no link yet.


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## Scoobie Newbie (22 Nov 2007)

touched on in this thread
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/58972.45.html

Below are the... high points and significant changes that were announced at the subj conference earlier this week...

1. PAY RAISE - the pay raise is coming, but most likely not before Christmas. 

2. FIELD ENVIRONMENTAL ALLOWANCE (FEA) - This will replace FOA. CF Mbrs posted to "Field Units" will be getting a monthly allowance similar to Sea Duty Allowance (starts at $285/mo).  The CDS will designate the units and positions that are entitled to receive this new allowance.  This will be back dated to 1 Apr 07. Units will have to calculate their mbrs eligible time in field units to determine what rate they will be receiving.  Casual FEA will replace FOA and will be raised to approx $24/day.

3. ENVIRONMENTAL ALLOWANCE EQUITY - Accumulated seniority with environmental allowances will be transferable.  If you have five years SDA and you are posted to a designated field unit, you will have five years time credit to FEA. (good news for purple trades).

4. PLD RE-RATIONALIZATION - PLD will be changing in the near future.  Ottawa will become the "standard" city in Canada and will receive $0 PLD.  Any geographical area that has a lower cost of living than Ottawa will also get $0 PLD.  Any geographical area with a higher cost of living than Ottawa will get the difference between Ottawa and that region's cost of living.  This will be phased in over three years (reduced by 1/3 each year until it is at the new and improved level). Officer's PLD reduction will start 1 Apr 08, NCM PLD reduction will start 1 Apr 09.  Pers posted to a new location will get the new and improved level immediately


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## Sub_Guy (22 Nov 2007)

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=8dd87dba-eba9-4a94-8aa4-a16a210438dd&k=14040


I don't know what is going on with that story, but as a home owner in Victoria, it has my attention.


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## Spring_bok (22 Nov 2007)

Whenever I have been on course on TD, my TD would stop when I was in the field.  Does this mean if I go on TD my enviromental allowance stops?


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## SupersonicMax (22 Nov 2007)

Spring_bok said:
			
		

> Whenever I have been on course on TD, my TD would stop when I was in the field.  Does this mean if I go on TD my enviromental allowance stops?



I always had my Flight Pay and my TD (both)

Max


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## vonGarvin (22 Nov 2007)

Spring_bok said:
			
		

> Whenever I have been on course on TD, my TD would stop when I was in the field.  Does this mean if I go on TD my enviromental allowance stops?


As I understand TD (and I don't very well), it's one or the other.  TD is better for the member (tax exempt allowance) whereas FOA is taxable.  That's about as much as I understand it.

Having said that, if FEA were to be implemented today, and you are in a designated "field" unit (I wonder if NDHQ will be a field unit? :) and you went on TD tomorrow, I haven't the foggiest if one would cancel out the other.  I suppose it would work the same way that a member that gets the sea pay and goes away on TD.  Perhaps a swabbie could answer?  (And by "Swabbie", I mean "Member of the Senior Service")


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## aesop081 (22 Nov 2007)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I always had my Flight Pay and my TD (both)



Thats probably because usualy, we get TD because we are away flying.  Although, Aircrew allowance, sea duty allowance and the new Field allowance sound similar they have a crucial difference.  For us in receipt of full-time aircrew allowance, there are conditions that are above and beyond being in a flying position. I can't wait to see what this new field allowance will look like and how it will be administered.


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## 284_226 (22 Nov 2007)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=8dd87dba-eba9-4a94-8aa4-a16a210438dd&k=14040





			
				St. Micheals Medical Team said:
			
		

> In their report, they cite Toronto, Ottawa, and Halifax as cities where the allowance will be cut. Valcartier is said to be one of the cities where the allowance will be maintained.



Valcartier maintained, while Toronto, Ottawa and Halifax cut?

If that's accurate, I'm beyond words.


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## BinRat55 (22 Nov 2007)

I've been wanting to comment on this thread for some time now, but i've been unsure as to how to say what I wanted to say without ticking someone off.  I've come to the realize that the subject of PLD will automatically tick someone off regardless.  Please take my comments as my opinion and my opinion only. 

Just a short rant on the topic of PLD.  I'm convinced that everything combined, Gander is in the top 5 most expensive places to live. (Remember all you nice people who are trying to buy a home in Edm or Van, I said "top 5, not _the _ top...)

Min wage: Tied for second last in the country with PEI.  Only NB is lower.
Fuel prices: $1.20 a litre
Heating Oil: $1.16 a litre
Housing Costs - PMQ: $745 mo / Own home: $170K - $240K
Tax (Prov): Was 16.8%, now believe it or not, 14.7% (give or take a .1%) 
Distance to next city: 330Km

Ok, and there is much much more.  The food prices are the highest i've ever seen (probably due to the fuel prices) and in order to drive to a medical appointment outside Gander, you are only reimbursed bus cost - hundred bucks - which doesn't cover fuel cost for the trip. I could go on, but the worst is St. John's (where they send us for medical appointments) receives close on $330.00 PLD at this point.  Corner Brook (the other place they send us for certain appointments) receives almost $100 for God's sake.  Gander? Zip.  Where is the fairness in that?


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## armyvern (22 Nov 2007)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> and in order to drive to a medical appointment outside Gander, you are only reimbursed bus cost - hundred bucks - which doesn't cover fuel cost for the trip.



You've known me long enough to know my answer to this already ...  >

Take the bus (even if it is the short yellow one)!!

Other than that, us NBers have magic cows in this province!! 6 bucks and change for milk -- magic friggin' dairy cows!! I know nothing about the cost of living in Gander however, so can't comment on any other parts of your post !!


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## BinRat55 (22 Nov 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> You've known me long enough to know my answer to this already ...  >



You never disappoint me Vern!!



> NBers have magic cows in this province!! 6 bucks and change for milk -- magic friggin' dairy cows!!



I hear ya - that is expensive, but that's for 4 Li right?  They don't sell "bags" of milk here on the rock - we pay $4 for 2 Li. Absolutely absurd.


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## PO2FinClk (23 Nov 2007)

Mods, can we have the threads pertaining to Pay, PLD and Enviromental Allowances split along their topic? It is becoming next to impossible to remain on different subjects are confusing issues of other subjects. Other threads already exist on these subjects.

Pay increase, as announced in CANFORGEN 102/07 last June, it will be retro-active to 1 Apr 07. Collective Bargaining Agreements have not been completed and until that is done nothign will happen. This years DGRMC advised that it would likely be made available until Feb 08. But again, that is mere speculation and should not be relied upon.

As far as recent posts, PLD being scrapped, very old news as that was announced over 1 year ago. I again re-state that this is the reason why the new initiative on the part of DND/CF to create a separate allowance to this effect which would be managed internally. All old news.

Rules pertaining to FEA (IE: TD), likely not but you have to wait for the final product or else you are but disseminating guesses and folks take it as gospel. From the DGRMC conference, the calculation method would use a points system similar to that which is used for Foreign Service Allowances. However some of the direction issued seemed contradictory so would not want to even try to guess the transferability of other allowances as those rules are very liekly to be amended.


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## oozieman (23 Nov 2007)

My wife works for CRA and they held they ratified the offer as of last night. They recieved 2.5% a year for 3 years


----------



## George Wallace (23 Nov 2007)

oozieman said:
			
		

> My wife works for CRA and they held they ratified the offer as of last night. They recieved 2.5% a year for 3 years



Now you have to remember that the Public Service comprises of more than one UNION.  Until all have ratified their contractual concerns, we must wait.


----------



## oozieman (23 Nov 2007)

I understand that. I was just passing on some info


----------



## kincanucks (28 Nov 2007)

Here you go:

CANFORGEN 175/07 CDS 041/07 281405Z NOV 07
CF PAY, PLD AND DND HOUSING SHELTER CHARGES
UNCLASSIFIED


REFS: A. CBI 205.45 (POST LIVING DIFFERENTIAL) 
B. CBI 205.452 (TRANSITIONAL POST LIVING DIFFERENTIAL) 
C. DAOD 5024-0 DND LIVING ACCOMMODATION INSTRUCTIONS 



AS YOUR CHIEF OF THE DEFENCE STAFF, I AM COMMITTED TO MAINTAINING YOUR QUALITY OF LIFE THROUGHOUT THE COURSE OF YOUR CAREER, AND THROUGH THE VARIOUS CF LOCATIONS WHERE YOU MAY BE ASKED TO SERVE. AS YOUR COMPENSATION AND BENEFITS ARE IMPORTANT ELEMENTS OF YOUR QUALITY OF LIFE, I AM PLEASED TO INFORM YOU OF ANNUAL ADJUSTMENTS TO YOUR PAY TOGETHER WITH CHANGES AFFECTING POST LIVING DIFFERENTIAL (PLD). OF NOTE, ADJUSTMENTS TO MONTHLY SHELTER CHARGES ARE DEFERRED UNTIL 1 APRIL 2008 


CF PAY: THERE WILL BE A 2.0 PERCENT PAY INCREASE FOR ALL GENERAL SERVICE OFFICERS (GSO) AND ALL NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS (NCM). THE SAME INCREASE APPLIES TO PILOTS (LCOL AND BELOW), AND MEDICAL AND DENTAL OFFICERS (LT AND 2LT). THIS ECONOMIC INCREASE IS EFFECTIVE 1 APRIL 2007 AND IS ANTICIPATED TO BE DELIVERED IN YOUR END-MARCH 2008 PAY. REMEMBER THAT PAY ADJUSTMENTS LIKE THESE REMAIN AN IMPORTANT FACTOR IN THE LONG-TERM CALCULATION OF YOUR PENSION AND BENEFITS. THE SAME PERCENTAGE INCREASE APPLIES TO ENVIRONMENTAL ALLOWANCES AND TO THE CFS ALERT ALLOWANCE 


PLD: THE CALCULATION OF PLD HAS BEEN IMPROVED TO MAKE THE MODEL MORE RESPONSIVE TO ECONOMIC CHANGES AFFECTING CF LOCATIONS THROUGHOUT CANADA 


PLD WILL REMAIN AN IMPORTANT TOOL TO STABILIZE COST-OF-LIVING STANDARDS FOR CF PERSONNEL WHEREVER THEY MAY SERVE IN CANADA. RETROACTIVE TO 1 JULY 2007, PLD WILL BE BENCHMARKED TO THE NATIONAL CAPITAL REGION (NCR) AND ADJUSTED ANNUALLY. IF IT COSTS MORE TO LIVE IN A GIVEN AREA THAN IT DOES IN THE NCR, THE GIVEN LOCATION WILL RECEIVE PLD. IF IT COSTS THE SAME OR LESS TO LIVE IN THE GIVEN AREA THAN IT DOES IN THE NCR, CF PERSONNEL IN THAT LOCATION WILL NOT RECEIVE PLD. I AM CONFIDENT THAT THIS IS EQUITABLE AND WELL MEETS THE NEEDS OF CF PERS SERVING ACROSS CANADA 


IN CERTAIN AREAS, IN PARTICULAR EDMONTON, COLD LAKE AND CALGARY, PLD RATES WILL INCREASE RETROACTIVE TO 1 JULY 2007. IN THOSE LOCATIONS WHERE PLD WILL BE REDUCED, THE REDUCTIONS WILL BE IMPLEMENTED BY RANK AT THE RATE OF ONE THIRD EACH YEAR COMMENCING 1 APR 2008 FOR NCM IN THE RANK OF WO AND ABOVE AS WELL AS FOR OFFICERS IN THE RANK OF LT(N)/CAPT AND ABOVE. EFFECTIVE 1 APR 2009, THIS PHASED PLD REDUCTION WILL ALSO BE IMPLEMENTED FOR SERGEANTS AND BELOW AS WELL AS FOR OFFICERS IN THE RANK OF SLT/LT AND BELOW. FOR CAPT(N)/COL AND ABOVE LIVING IN THE NCR, THE NEW PLD RATE FOR THAT LOCATION WILL BE IMPLEMENTED IN FULL AS OF 1 APR 2008. THE NEW PLD RATES WILL BE PROMULGATED IN A SEPARATE CANFORGEN AND WILL BE AVAILABLE AT WWW.FORCES.GC.CA/DGCB/ ONCE RATES FOR ALL AREAS HAVE BEEN CALCULATED 


ADJUSTMENTS TO DND HOUSING MONTHLY SHELTER CHARGES WILL BE DEFERRED UNTIL 1 APRIL 08. AS YOU KNOW, TREASURY BOARD POLICY AND QUEEN S REGULATIONS AND ORDERS DICTATE THAT CHARGES FOR CROWN OWNED HOUSING MUST REFLECT LOCAL MARKET VALUES. THIS MEANS THAT YOU CAN EXPECT CHARGES TO INCREASE IN SOME AREAS, DECREASE IN OTHERS OR REMAIN UNCHANGED 


IN SOME AREAS, CF PERS LIVING IN DND HOUSING WILL FACE A SITUATION WHERE THEIR MONTHLY DND HOUSING SHELTER CHARGE WILL INCREASE, ON 1 APRIL 2008, WHILE THEIR PLD WILL DECREASE. THIS WILL OCCUR BECAUSE THE GENERAL RELATIVE SPENDING POWER IN THEIR AREA HAS INCREASED, BUT THE MONTHLY SHELTER CHARGE HAS NOT YET BEEN ADJUSTED TO THE LOCAL MARKET RATE AS REQUIRED BY TREASURY BOARD POLICY 


I KNOW THAT WHILE MOST OF YOU WILL BE PLEASED WITH THIS ROUND OF ADJUSTMENTS, SOME OF YOU MAY FEEL THAT YOUR OVERALL SITUATION HAS NOT IMPROVED. REMEMBER TO THINK OF THESE CHANGES IN TERMS OF THEIR BENEFITS TO YOU OVER THE COURSE OF YOUR CAREER, AND THROUGH THE VARIOUS POSTINGS THAT YOU MAY EXPERIENCE. THE NECESSARY STEPS ARE BEING IMPLEMENTED TO ALIGN OUR BENEFITS WITH CANADIAN SOCIETY, WHILE ENSURING YOU ARE TREATED FAIRLY AND EQUITABLY, AND IN A WAY THAT ADDRESSES THE DEMANDS THAT MILITARY LIFE PUTS ON YOU AND YOUR FAMILY. THE LONG-TERM BENEFITS OF THESE ADJUSTMENTS ARE LASTING IMPROVEMENTS AND REPRESENT THE CHANCE FOR ALL OF US TO ENJOY A COMMON STANDARD OF LIVING, WHEREVER WE ARE CALLED TO SERVE IN OUR COUNTRY


----------



## Sig_Des (28 Nov 2007)

YAY!!!

Now to see the PLD rate for Edmonton. I await with anticipation!


----------



## Haggis (28 Nov 2007)

Essentially this amounts to a lump sum payment of a years worth of back pay... taxed accordingly.


----------



## JBoyd (28 Nov 2007)

2%?, so does this mean that new Pte's in BMQ will be now making $2533/month instead of the previous $2484? I understand the backpay is being implemented hopefully in the end-march pay, but am wondering if the increase is effective on all pay from this point on?


----------



## armyvern (28 Nov 2007)

JBoyd said:
			
		

> 2%?, so does this mean that new Pte's in BMQ will be now making $2533/month instead of the previous $2484? I understand the backpay is being implemented hopefully in the end-march pay, but am wondering if the increase is effective on all pay from this point on?



Yes. The effective date is 01 April 2007. That means that all personnel (less those excluded by CANFORGEN message) are effectively now earning another 2% month. So, your pay just went up 2%.

When it does eventually show up in your bank account (end Mar estimated as per message) -- the backpay of that 2% / # months since 01 Apr 07 will be deposited and from there-on-in your 2 % pay adjustment (ie your raise) will become a normal part of your deposited monthly salary.


----------



## aesop081 (28 Nov 2007)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> YAY!!!



Yay ?

for 2%  ?

This "pay raise" is simply catching up to inflation.  Its hardly a "raise"


----------



## armyvern (28 Nov 2007)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Yay ?
> 
> for 2%  ?
> 
> This "pay raise" is simply catching up to inflation.  Its hardly a "raise"



So, I take it you're giving yours back as unwanted??

Heck, I'll keep mine. They taught me in math class that 2% is 2% more than zero.  ;D


----------



## 211RadOp (28 Nov 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> So, I take it you're giving yours back as unwanted??
> 
> Heck, I'll keep mine. They taught me in math class that 2% is 2% more than zero.  ;D



See, edumakashun at Oromoscow High is good for sumtin. It made us smrt!   ;D


----------



## Haggis (28 Nov 2007)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> This "pay raise" is simply catching up to inflation.  Its hardly a "raise"



Had it been announced and implemented on 01 Apr 07, it would've been a "raise" based on the rate of inflation at that point.  However, implementing it a year in arrears has ensured this "raise" was overtaken by inflation.  This has become a "cost of living increase".

Nonetheless, I agree with Vern.  2% is 2% more than I earned this time last year.


----------



## Sub_Guy (28 Nov 2007)

Since this raise is a year late, what do you think the chances are that another adjustment will happen in Apr 08?


----------



## Sig_Des (28 Nov 2007)

211RadOp said:
			
		

> See, edumakashun at Oromoscow High is good for sumtin. It made us smrt!   ;D



Yup. Also taught me to be happy with whatever I can get.

CDN Aviator, if you don't want yours, feel free to dump it into my account.


----------



## kincanucks (28 Nov 2007)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> Since this raise is a year late, what do you think the chances are that another adjustment will happen in Apr 08?



Good but you won't get until 31 Mar 09.


----------



## Jammer (28 Nov 2007)

That along with the monthly FOA...and another deployment next Aug......my RV is paid for  wooohooo!


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## aesop081 (28 Nov 2007)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Had it been announced and implemented on 01 Apr 07, it would've been a "raise" based on the rate of inflation at that point.  However, implementing it a year in arrears has ensured this "raise" was overtaken by inflation.  This has become a "cost of living increase".



Its not that i disagree with Vern. 2% is more money indeed.  My problem with it is exactly what you describe above.


----------



## Canadian Sig (28 Nov 2007)

Jammer said:
			
		

> That along with the monthly FOA...and another deployment next Aug......my RV is paid for  wooohooo!



Did that monthly FOA thing ever get confirmed?


----------



## Infantry (28 Nov 2007)

2%!
I'm not going to complain about the raise, but the national average raise for all jobs this year was about 3-5%.
The inflation rate alone was almost 3%.

The new PLD is good for someone who lives in Alberta (who will now get a significantly higher PLD) but what about someone who's posted to Victoria or Halifax for example.  I assume the PLD at those places will be dropping by about 200$ a month, seeing how Ottawa's PLD is about 200$.

So, taking the inflation rate into consideration and the new PLD, I just received a pay decrease today.

I'm happy with the money I make, don't get me wrong.  I'm just pointing out some details.


----------



## armyvern (28 Nov 2007)

Infantry said:
			
		

> 2%!
> I'm not going to complain about the raise, but the national average raise for all jobs this year was about 3-5%.
> The inflation rate alone was almost 3%.
> 
> ...



No your pay went up 2% today.

Halifax ... I dunno -- I don't see much difference in prices for homes, good or services between my current location and there -- yet we receive no PLD here.

PLD is NOT pay. If you're losing PLD due to the new way of business, that's still not a paycut. After all ... you were lucky to be getting it in the first place ... your "average Canadian" who is required to move to Alberta due to their employment surely isn't receiving that benefit. And sorry, but the cost of living in Halifax doesn't compare with that in the NCR -- so if they're zero ... so should you be.

Perhaps you are considering it a pay cut because you have just become used to receiving it as an over-and-above-entitlement benefit??

Kind of like arguing that troops should receive foreign duty allowances indefinitely -- just because they have become used to receiving them (and spending them!!) and consider it part of their "pay." Well, it's only part of your "pay" while the need (thus entitlement) exists.


----------



## niceasdrhuxtable (28 Nov 2007)

Using the latest inflation rate of 2.4% from Statistics Canada (http://www.statcan.ca/english/Subjects/Cpi/cpi-en.htm), a 2% cost of living adjustment actually results in a 0.39% pay decrease in real terms, plus foregone interest on the money that has been withheld.

That's life though. Some times you get a big payday (like that raise 2 years ago) and sometimes it's not so great. I think the staggered withdrawal of PLD in some locations is a good way to approach the reduction of PLD for some bases, so I'm glad they took that approach.


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## Infantry (28 Nov 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> No your pay went up 2% today.
> 
> Halifax ... I dunno -- I don't see much difference in prices for homes, good or services between my current location and there -- yet we receive no PLD here.
> 
> ...



I know PLD is not pay.

Where are you posted?  Just wondering why we would be getting 374$ a month PLD and your location isn't.  There must be a reason.  

Housing is about the same here as it is in Ottawa, but the tax rate here is alot higher (3rd highest in Canada, Ontario is one of the lowest) and the price of everything from groceries, property tax, and fuel is significantly higher.

If an average canadian was required to move to Alberta, from let's say, the maritimes, the rate of pay in Alberta is *significantly* *higher* than it would be in other provinces. i.e. an electrician in Halifax making 18$ an hour and he would get 30-40$ an hour in Alberta (just for an example).

By pay decrease, I didn't mean a pay cut, I meant receiving less money.

Later


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## Sub_Guy (28 Nov 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Perhaps you are considering it a pay cut because you have just become used to receiving it as an over-and-above-entitlement benefit??
> 
> Kind of like arguing that troops should receive foreign duty allowances indefinitely -- just because they have become used to receiving them (and spending them!!) and consider it part of their "pay." Well, it's only part of your "pay" while the need (thus entitlement) exists.




Sure PLD shouldn't be considered pay, but it was/is given to soldiers who live in high cost of living areas (big problem with the formula if you get it in Halifax but not Edmonton)

Isn't it used to off set the higher cost of living compared to a certain base?   So if I am given this extra money to help me live in a more expensive environment then how can I not consider that part of my income and rely on it?  Especially in those areas that get close to $1000 a month PLD?  It is wrong to give someone that money and at the same time say don't rely on this and you could lose it at any time, so don't make any big purchases (house) with the extra money.  Its too easy for someone to sit in their city where the average house price is 239,000 and criticize the fella who lives in a market where the average house price is 539,000, because he used the PLD in his budgeting (I know more goes into the current formula than the price of housing, but housing prices are a decent indication of how expensive it is to live in a certain area). 

(It doesn't affect me at all, either way I'm good, but I do know some people are going to get caught in a financial mess if they lose the PLD)

What I don't understand in that message is how there are two different dates for reduction in PLD 01 Apr 08 and 01 Apr 09, seems like the officers get a break.


That big payday a few years ago worked wonders for those who get spec pay those who don't get spec pay got what I like to consider "the shaft".


----------



## Infantry (28 Nov 2007)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> Sure PLD shouldn't be considered pay, but it was/is given to soldiers who live in high cost of living areas (big problem with the formula if you get it in Halifax but not Edmonton)
> 
> Isn't it used to off set the higher cost of living compared to a certain base?   So if I am given this extra money to help me live in a more expensive environment then how can I not consider that part of my income and rely on it?  Especially in those areas that get close to $1000 a month PLD?  It is wrong to give someone that money and at the same time say don't rely on this and you could lose it at any time, so don't make any big purchases (house) with the extra money.  Its too easy for someone to sit in their city where the average house price is 239,000 and criticize the fella who lives in a market where the average house price is 539,000, because he used the PLD in his budgeting (I know more goes into the current formula than the price of housing, but housing prices are a decent indication of how expensive it is to live in a certain area).
> 
> ...



For Edmonton not getting PLD and Halifax getting one.

Take into consideration the last time PLD was updated was in the beginning of 2006, before the huge price jump in Housing in Alberta.  Before the jump, housing in Edmonton was lower than Halifax.  Also, we pay 14% tax in stores while you only pay 6%, among other things.  Also, on a 60 000$ salary, you bring home about 4000$ more a year in Alberta than in Nova Scotia because of the income tax difference.


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## niceasdrhuxtable (28 Nov 2007)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> What I don't understand in that message is how there are two different dates for reduction in PLD 01 Apr 08 and 01 Apr 09, seems like the officers get a break.



I think you read that backwards. Text is as follows (emphasis mine):



> IN CERTAIN AREAS, IN PARTICULAR EDMONTON, COLD LAKE AND CALGARY, PLD RATES WILL INCREASE RETROACTIVE TO 1 JULY 2007. IN THOSE LOCATIONS WHERE PLD WILL BE REDUCED, THE REDUCTIONS WILL BE IMPLEMENTED BY RANK AT THE RATE OF ONE THIRD EACH YEAR COMMENCING *1 APR 2008 FOR NCM IN THE RANK OF WO AND ABOVE AS WELL AS FOR OFFICERS IN THE RANK OF LT(N)/CAPT AND ABOVE*. EFFECTIVE *1 APR 2009, THIS PHASED PLD REDUCTION WILL ALSO BE IMPLEMENTED FOR SERGEANTS AND BELOW AS WELL AS FOR OFFICERS IN THE RANK OF SLT/LT AND BELOW*. FOR *CAPT(N)/COL AND ABOVE LIVING IN THE NCR, THE NEW PLD RATE FOR THAT LOCATION WILL BE IMPLEMENTED IN FULL AS OF 1 APR 2008*.


----------



## PO2FinClk (28 Nov 2007)

Canadian Sig said:
			
		

> Did that monthly FOA thing ever get confirmed?


Still in the works and will be called FEA (Field Environment Allowance), more is mentioned in another thread..


----------



## Sub_Guy (28 Nov 2007)

niceasdrhuxtable said:
			
		

> I think you read that backwards. Text is as follows (emphasis mine):



Roger Retard.....

Thanks!


----------



## FSTO (28 Nov 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> No your pay went up 2% today.
> 
> Halifax ... I dunno -- I don't see much difference in prices for homes, good or services between my current location and there -- yet we receive no PLD here.
> 
> ...



Well I am a bad sailor because I have fallen into the same trap as most (I would assume) people have by budgeting the PLD into their cost of living. Thankfully my wife is expecting a raise soon so maybe this won't hurt as much. But the grape-vine out here in Esquimalt (from MARPAC himself) is that PLD here is going to go up. 

anyway this was a no-win situation for the military because (assuming again) that this whole PLD reduction and PMQ increase SNAFU was originated by those heartless bastards at Treasury Board.


----------



## I_am_John_Galt (28 Nov 2007)

niceasdrhuxtable said:
			
		

> Using the latest inflation rate of 2.4% from Statistics Canada (http://www.statcan.ca/english/Subjects/Cpi/cpi-en.htm), a 2% cost of living adjustment actually results in a 0.39% pay decrease in real terms, plus foregone interest on the money that has been withheld.



Actually it is worse than that: it would have to be retroactive _with interest_ in order to break even: effectively, we are getting back some of our pay decrease due to inflation.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if the PLD "pot" gets/has been increased, or is this just a redistribution of a fixed budget?  And for the record, CCRA considers PLD as Income and taxes it accordingly: one has to compare cost of living against PLD _after taxes_, in order to make a fair comparison.


----------



## Scoobs (29 Nov 2007)

1. The 2% "raise" is okay, but not sufficient if it did not keep up with inflation.  Coupling this with a decrease in PLD or elimination of it after up to 3 years results in an overall negative affect on most CF mbrs and a cost savings for DND (read bureaucrats).  What bothers me most, which no one has yet pointed out, is why the NCR is being used as the baseline.  Last time I heard, PLD was supposed to help offset the difference between the "CF National Cost of Living" and what the costs are at specific locations, not the difference between what the cost of living in Ottawa is compared to specific locations.  Our rate of pay, which does not include PLD, is not based on what a person in Ottawa makes, so where does this baseline based on the Ottawa region come from?  I lived in the Ottawa area/Quebec for 12 years and I can fairly say that over that time I saw costs dramatically rise in Ottawa.  Therefore, basing the baseline on Ottawa gives the penny pinchers a higher baseline to compare other locations to.  In turn, this results in many less locations being above or equal to the baseline and thus equals a cost savings to DND.
2. Why does it take 8 months to come up with a measly 2% raise?  To tell us back in June that the various Public Service contracts were being studied is BS.  If this was the case, we would have had at least a 2.5% to 3.5% raise.  Bureaucratic foot dragging.
3. Why does it take 4 months to implement a pay "raise"?  If this has been apparently studied since June, would you not figure that this would have been one of the items that was looked at?  Lack of foresight.
4. If you are going to wait 8 months to announce to us that we are getting only 2%, our PLD (for most of us) is going to go down, and some of us will be hit hard with PMQ (not me) rent increases come 2009, why in the world would you not have the PLD rates ready at the same time?  I checked for the new rates and could not find them today.  Poor management of the file.

In addition, to tell me that this will be beneficial over my career is not totally true as no one, even the CDS, can guarantee to me that the rules won't change in the next decade prior to my retirement.  The pension rules could change, PLD could be wiped out entirely for everyone, etc.  The statement of saying we need to look at the benefits over our career is simply a PR exercise, nothing more, nothing less.

This whole situation was poorly handled by DND and higher HQ.  In my opinion, they all should receive a failing grade.  The CANFORGEN put out today is nothing but an exercise in damage control.  How this can be fed down our throats as something good only insults my intelligence.  Give it to me straight and don't try to put a pile of **** on my plate and tell me to eat it!


----------



## Northernguardian (29 Nov 2007)

Most people posting here (except for my aircrew buddy CdnAviator  and Scoobs ) seem to be taking the approach that its better than nothing. Well folks, yes, it is better than nothing, but its also a kick in the groin. I know that everyone at work is pissed off with it, and  I'm very disappointed as well. Not sure if the posters in these forums are afraid to speak their mind. I thought the whole point of these forums was to have a place where people can speak freely about military issues (within reason).

I thought the CANFORGEN sounded like an apology. No wonder why. Average wage increases in Canada are running between 3-5%. Inflation varies, but the true rate (when you factor in energy costs, etc) is well above the CPI, 2.5% to 4% or more depending on where you live. So this adjustment doesn't even cover inflation. Your spending power is decreasing. On top of that, our CPP contributions are continually going up. The country is running a record surplus, we are at war, we have a retention problem, and we aren't even getting enough to cover inflation. 

Scoobs was bang on. You have to wonder what the pay gods were doing for the past 8 months....fighting for a good deal...and this is all they came up with. Even though they know what they've giving us now, we have to wait until March 08 for the money.  So much for our 21st century pay system. You'll see 9 months of your 2007 "raise" taxed along with your entire 2008 income- so you'll wind up with less than if you got it this year. Same thing happened a few years back. 

Merry Christmas folks.


----------



## George Wallace (29 Nov 2007)

Northernguardian said:
			
		

> ......... You have to wonder what the pay gods were doing for the past 8 months....fighting for a good deal...and this is all they came up with. Even though they know what they've giving us now, we have to wait until March 08 for the money.



If you didn't lie in your profile, you must have been hiding under a rock in a drunken stupor for 30+ years, because if you hadn't you would know that there are NO PAY GODS.  Our pay increases are tied into the Public Civil Service Pay Scales.  One Union has ratified their pay increase.  There are still two more to do so.  SO until ALL the Unions of the Public Service have ratified their contracts, our pay increase won't be finalized.  That is too simple to understand.  Stop bitching about something that is out of our (CF) control.  Patience...........and perhaps some of you should read the topic on Entering the CF and YOUR Money for some budgetary pointers in the meantime.


----------



## armyvern (30 Nov 2007)

OMG ... I sooooooooo plan on visiting this thread again on 01 April.

Some of you really need to query your CoC as to the reason for the delayed implementation of this raise onto your pay.

*cough cough* 



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> Now you have to remember that the Public Service comprises of more than one UNION.  *Until all have ratified their contractual concerns, we must wait.*


----------



## exgunnertdo (30 Nov 2007)

When I was teaching in Manitoba, anytime we got a retroactive pay adjustment, we got the retro with interest (small, but still, it's the principle of it).  Anyone know if the public service, when they negotiate their contracts, do they get interest on their retro payments?  If they do, we should, right?


----------



## cavalryman (30 Nov 2007)

exgunnertdo said:
			
		

> When I was teaching in Manitoba, anytime we got a retroactive pay adjustment, we got the retro with interest (small, but still, it's the principle of it).  Anyone know if the public service, when they negotiate their contracts, do they get interest on their retro payments?  If they do, we should, right?



There is no interest on retroactive pay adjustments in the Public Service.


----------



## Bintheredunthat (30 Nov 2007)

Infantry said:
			
		

> Housing is about the same here as it is in Ottawa, but the tax rate here is alot higher (3rd highest in Canada, Ontario is one of the lowest) and the price of everything from groceries, property tax, and fuel is significantly higher.
> 
> If an average canadian was required to move to Alberta, from let's say, the maritimes, the rate of pay in Alberta is *significantly* *higher* than it would be in other provinces. i.e. an electrician in Halifax making 18$ an hour and he would get 30-40$ an hour in Alberta (just for an example).
> Later



Mind sharing where your facts come from WRT tax rates?  Here's all I could dig up because I thought you were a bit off:

http://www.halifax.ca/budget/documents/Whopays_0607.pdf - Result if you don't want to go to the link = Residential for Hfx is 1.29%
http://ottawa.ca/residents/proptaxes/general_info/tax_calculation_en.html - Result = Residential for Ottawa is 1.19% (unless my Math is off).

So 0.1 percent difference is what you are basing your argument on??  Which is 250 dollars a year on a $250,000 home.  For the record, I'm in Kingston.  Where the low end is 1.4%, if you can afford to live on the East side.   :

As for your comment about moving to Alberta, I'm sure you haven't done much shopping for groceries there.  Fly to Edmonton and buy yourself a block of cheese.  And really, do you think someone who makes double the pay in one place can afford a home double the price?

I guess for some, the grass really is greener on the other side of the fence.  Sorry, maybe I'm way off here - but I think the facts & figures are a bit misleading.

Bin


----------



## Infantry (30 Nov 2007)

Bintheredunthat-Muzzled said:
			
		

> Mind sharing where your facts come from WRT tax rates?  Here's all I could dig up because I thought you were a bit off:
> 
> http://www.halifax.ca/budget/documents/Whopays_0607.pdf - Result if you don't want to go to the link = Residential for Hfx is 1.29%
> http://ottawa.ca/residents/proptaxes/general_info/tax_calculation_en.html - Result = Residential for Ottawa is 1.19% (unless my Math is off).
> ...



Here is what I had written :  
_Just wondering why we would be getting 374$ a month PLD and your location isn't.  There must be a reason.  
Housing is about the same here as it is in Ottawa, but the tax rate here is alot higher (3rd highest in Canada, Ontario is one of the lowest) and the price of everything from groceries, property tax, and fuel is significantly higher_.  


I was refering to the income tax rate, not the property tax.
Here is a link.
http://www.taxtips.ca/tax_rates.htm
as you will notice, it is higher in Nova Scotia than in Ontario.

As you stated, the property tax is higher in Halifax than in Ottawa.  Was I wrong?
(The price of fuel is also, on average about 5-10cents more a litre here.)


_If an average canadian was required to move to Alberta, from let's say, the maritimes, the rate of pay in Alberta is significantly higher than it would be in other provinces. i.e. an electrician in Halifax making 18$ an hour and he would get 30-40$ an hour in Alberta (just for an example)._

You got my comparison with Alberta misunderstood.  All I said was that civilians have a higher rate of pay there>!!>   Nothing about buying a house for double the price or going grocery shopping.  I was answering a question on PLD.  ie as a reason why Edmonton should get getting a higher PLD


I'm not comparing the color of grass.


----------



## BinRat55 (2 Dec 2007)

Please correct me if i'm wrong (i'm sure someone will) but when I read the CANFORGEN, I understood "Cost of Living Increase".  See excerpt below, emphases mine:

"*THIS ECONOMIC INCREASE * IS EFFECTIVE 1 APRIL 2007 AND IS ANTICIPATED TO BE DELIVERED IN YOUR END-MARCH 2008 PAY. REMEMBER THAT *PAY ADJUSTMENTS LIKE THESE * REMAIN AN IMPORTANT FACTOR IN THE LONG-TERM CALCULATION OF YOUR PENSION AND BENEFITS."

Words like "Economic increase" and "Pay adjustment"... Couple that with the fact that it was stated in an earlier CANFORGEN that the "Pay Raise" will be announced when all tables ratify - which has not happened yet.

Is there still more to come?   ???  Just a question, not to cause any controversy...


----------



## George Wallace (2 Dec 2007)

"Rate of Inflation"

Is that what you are thinking of?


----------



## Infantry (2 Dec 2007)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Please correct me if i'm wrong (i'm sure someone will) but when I read the CANFORGEN, I understood "Cost of Living Increase".  See excerpt below, emphases mine:
> 
> "*THIS ECONOMIC INCREASE * IS EFFECTIVE 1 APRIL 2007 AND IS ANTICIPATED TO BE DELIVERED IN YOUR END-MARCH 2008 PAY. REMEMBER THAT *PAY ADJUSTMENTS LIKE THESE * REMAIN AN IMPORTANT FACTOR IN THE LONG-TERM CALCULATION OF YOUR PENSION AND BENEFITS."
> 
> ...



I take economic increase as meaning an increase to compensate for the inflation? If that's the case, that's not the raise that we were waiting for.


----------



## armyvern (2 Dec 2007)

:

It's not like it hasn't been strongly suggested in this thread already ...

way back when. Some of you need to re-read.


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO (2 Dec 2007)

I agree with Northernguardian...this announcement is not going to please the majority of folks in the CF. Setting Ottawa as the Baseline is a way of diddling about 6700 people out of PLD...about 10 per cent of our numbers.....and it will reduce the rest of the bases as well. Edmonton will finally get something but it won't be anywhere near what they need to live there. I think it's cold comfort to ask people to think of pension benefits and longer term things when today's needs are more pressing for those with young families to house and feed etc.
I won't be sending the 2 per cent back but in the long run this adjustment is not beneficial me thinks.


----------



## George Wallace (2 Dec 2007)

So?  How do you think all those thousands have felt in Ottawa over all these years, without any PLD? Now they are the 'Baseline'.  Some help that is.  

You have to start somewhere, and I guess this is it.  Is it fair?  Do you have a better 'Baseline' in mind?


----------



## SupersonicMax (2 Dec 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> So?  How do you think all those thousands have felt in Ottawa over all these years, without any PLD? Now they are the 'Baseline'.  Some help that is.
> 
> You have to start somewhere, and I guess this is it.  Is it fair?  *Do you have a better 'Baseline' in mind?*



The cheapest town in Canada. That way, everyone else gets PLD 

Max


----------



## 284_226 (2 Dec 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> :
> 
> It's not like it hasn't been strongly suggested in this thread already ...
> 
> way back when. Some of you need to re-read.



I wish I had access to the DIN and the CANFORGENS right now, but DVPNI seems to be down.

If I remember correctly, in the past there have been occasions where all or some of the PSAC tables have not ratified their collective agreements within a reasonable time, and an "interim" pay adjustment was given out.  Again, if memory serves, it was in the amount of 2%.  The CANFORGEN announcing this "interim" pay adjustment clearly stated that it was an interim adjustment, and that there would be a further adjustment when PSAC completed their negotiations.

Referring to this year's CANFORGEN, there's no suggestion - *not even a hint *- that this is merely an interim pay adjustment, and that there will be a further adjustment down the road when PSAC settles.

If what you and others have suggested is true - that is, that there will be a further adjustment - then the CoC has failed *again* to adequately and officially communicate the status of the annual pay adjustment, and left much opportunity for speculation.


----------



## Sig_Des (2 Dec 2007)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> The cheapest town in Canada. That way, everyone else gets PLD
> 
> Max



From http://www.finfacts.ie/costofliving.htm



> Toronto, the most expensive city in Canada, has dropped 35 places to position 82 (score 78.8 ). Calgary and Vancouver have also tumbled down the rankings, sliding from 71st place to 92nd  and 56th to 89th respectively. *Ottawa remains the cheapest Canadian city in 109th position scoring 72.3*. Canadian cities have traditionally rated favourably in the worldwide ranking. The new scores reflect a low rate of inflation and stable housing prices. In addition, while it has appreciated slightly against the US Dollar, the Canadian Dollar has depreciated nearly 13% against the Euro since last year’s survey.
> _____
> 
> Mercer’s survey covers 143 cities* across six continents and measures the comparative cost of over 200 items in each location, including housing, transport, food, clothing, household goods and entertainment. It is the world’s most comprehensive cost of living survey and is used to help multinational companies and governments determine compensation allowances for their expatriate employees.


----------



## SupersonicMax (2 Dec 2007)

So, Ottawa is cheaper than Moose Jaw and Winnipeg?!  I'm surprised!

Max


----------



## JBoyd (2 Dec 2007)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> So, Ottawa is cheaper than Moose Jaw and Winnipeg?!  I'm surprised!
> 
> Max



As am I, I was always informed Cost Of Living was pretty high in Ottawa, being Capital City and all


----------



## Sig_Des (3 Dec 2007)

JBoyd said:
			
		

> As am I, I was always informed Cost Of Living was pretty high in Ottawa, being Capital City and all



I think the reason for that is that they also include Gatineau when it comes to the NCR.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (3 Dec 2007)

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> this announcement is not going to please the majority of folks in the CF.



Who cares.  That is not the point of the policy...



> Setting Ottawa as the Baseline is a way of diddling about 6700 people out of PLD...about 10 per cent of our numbers.....


  

Riiight.  The whole thing is a Treasury Board conspiracy to screw over 10% of the Forces.  Let me guess - you think this was so the higher ups could line their pockets, right?

Out.


----------



## McG (3 Dec 2007)

Back in the summer I heard an individual comment that Ottawa would have no PLD so that it did not appear as a money hand-out for the top of the food chain while someone at the bottom may have gone without in another location.  At the time I figured he was speaking out his arse (Ottawa had a pretty good PLD rate at the time).  While he probably was well outside his arcs, maybe there was something he knew way back then.


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO (3 Dec 2007)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Who cares.  That is not the point of the policy...
> 
> 
> Riiight.  The whole thing is a Treasury Board conspiracy to screw over 10% of the Forces.  Let me guess - you think this was so the higher ups could line their pockets, right?
> ...



Nope I think it's about saving money on the backs of CF members so they can spend it on something else.


----------



## Franko (3 Dec 2007)

MCG said:
			
		

> Back in the summer I heard an individual comment that Ottawa would have no PLD so that it did not appear as a money hand-out for the top of the food chain while someone at the bottom may have gone without in another location.



Seeing a Cpl married with 3 kids living in Uplands and paying over $900 for a 40 year old 'Q I'm sure he'd take a different view with said individual.         

Regards


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO (3 Dec 2007)

I'm posted to Ottawa in January (proceeding IR for now and looking at a summer move) and can't see too much in the way of housing that is very affordable on the MLS. Taxes are lower and gas is lower but in order to get the same kind of house I've got as in Halifax I'm going to have to live at least an hour away...which doesn't save any money on cost of living. Bottom line is that Ottawa is an expensive place to live so if that is baseline then a lot of other places aren't going to get any assistance.
When I was posted to Gagetown I found it affordable for most of our members to live there given what we were paying NCMs...to answer an earlier question why not make Gagetown the base line ,why Ottawa?


----------



## McG (3 Dec 2007)

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> Seeing a Cpl married with 3 kids living in Uplands and paying over $900 for a 40 year old 'Q I'm sure he'd take a different view with said individual.


I'm not disagreeing.  However, if it was a perception management thing, then the target audience is the Cpl in Edmonton (collecting no PLD) who is thinking of all the officers up in Ottawa collecting this money.  The Cpl suffering in Ottawa is easy to hide because he is not thought of when troops in the field units think of NDHQ.

Same issue if the media were ever to spin the fairness of PLD.  They'd be asking why the highly paid senior officers in Ottawa were collecting so much while very little was offered to the troops in Kingston.


----------



## BinRat55 (3 Dec 2007)

8)  C'mon Gander!!!  8)


----------



## armyvern (3 Dec 2007)

284_226 said:
			
		

> If what you and others have suggested is true - that is, that there will be a further adjustment - then the CoC has failed *again* to adequately and officially communicate the status of the annual pay adjustment, and left much opportunity for speculation.



Ours told us 'officially'.

Seems* yours * didn't ... *again*. Seems like it may be a location issue. 

Again, as I stated earlier ... some of you need to speak to yours.


----------



## Haggis (3 Dec 2007)

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> I'm posted to Ottawa in January (proceeding IR for now and looking at a summer move) and can't see too much in the way of housing that is very affordable on the MLS. Taxes are lower and gas is lower but in order to get the same kind of house I've got as in Halifax I'm going to have to live at least an hour away...which doesn't save any money on cost of living.



Look in the areas southeast of Ottawa (Moose Creek, Finch, Berwick, Crysler).  That's about 40 minutes out and nice little country communities.

Avoid anything within about 10 km of the 417 (Embrun, Rockland, Casselman).  It's just as expensive as Ottawa.


----------



## PO2FinClk (3 Dec 2007)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> So, Ottawa is cheaper than Moose Jaw and Winnipeg?!  I'm surprised!


Did you even look to see which Canadian cities were included in this report?

Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary, Montreal and Ottawa only were assessed in that report.


----------



## 284_226 (3 Dec 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Ours told us 'officially'.
> 
> Seems* yours * didn't ... *again*. Seems like it may be a location issue.
> 
> Again, as I stated earlier ... some of you need to speak to yours.



The CDS is the originator of the CANFORGEN above that announced the economic increase.  Why would it be left to subordinate commanders to promulgate additional information such as a potential future adjustment, when the CDS himself didn't make mention of it?

If one follows the sage advice of "Don't believe it until it's on paper", why should I believe the word of a Wing or Base Commander, when they have no authority to speak on national issues such as pay and benefits?  The bottom line is that if there is potential for a future pay adjustment, then the CDS should have addressed it in the original CANFORGEN.

I find it hard to believe the CDS would pass up an opportunity to break good news (such as an additional pay adjustment) to the members of the CF, unless there was a good reason for him to omit reference to it.


----------



## George Wallace (3 Dec 2007)

Oddball:  "Enough with the negative waves Moriarty!"


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO (3 Dec 2007)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Look in the areas southeast of Ottawa (Moose Creek, Finch, Berwick, Crysler).  That's about 40 minutes out and nice little country communities.
> 
> Avoid anything within about 10 km of the 417 (Embrun, Rockland, Casselman).  It's just as expensive as Ottawa.



thanks Haggis I will ponder that. When I lived in Ottawa the last time my parents lived in Cornwall and I used to take a short cut through those communities en route. My brother lives in Kanata so I was thinking out that way but the traffic is nutsy there now. I'll be working at Coventry so the southeast might be cool. I can't bear the thought of Orleans.
Wife wants some space for the dog so maybe that's a good spot. I'll just have to live with the daily commute. TY again


----------



## 284_226 (3 Dec 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Oddball:  "Enough with the negative waves Moriarty!"



I consider myself a realist, actually.  ;D

Don't get me wrong - I certainly hope there's some substance to what's being said about a possible future pay adjustment.  Being a firm believer in the "_Don't believe it until it's on paper_" rule, I'm certainly not going to mention anything of the sort to my subordinates.  However, the CANFORGEN announcement in its present state is not going to suppress further rumourmongering, or suppress grumbling about the quantity of the announced raise.

Of course, there may be a completely valid reason why the CDS omitted to mention it in the CANFORGEN.  I'm just saying the absence of any mention of it leaves me suspicious.


----------



## armyvern (3 Dec 2007)

284_226 said:
			
		

> I find it hard to believe the CDS would pass up an opportunity to break good news (such as an additional pay adjustment) to the members of the CF, unless there was a good reason for him to omit reference to it.



I can think of one. His earlier CANFORGEN already stated that a pay raise (and it's amount) would not be announced until _*all*_ the tables had completed their negotiations and the amount received was determined.

Go ahead and read it. To date, the above still hasn't happened; perhaps that is considered good reason. 

I certainly didn't see any mention on this latest "economic increase" CANFORGEN that cancelled or superceeded the information released in his initial message. 

I'm quite sure he has better things to do than repeat himself. I'll consider myself the optomist -- in that I have better things to do with my time than rhyme off ways and means of how the CF (& apparently the CDS now) is constantly trying to screw me and my family. Seems to be a habit for some.  :


----------



## George Wallace (3 Dec 2007)

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> thanks Haggis I will ponder that. When I lived in Ottawa the last time my parents lived in Cornwall and I used to take a short cut through those communities en route. My brother lives in Kanata so I was thinking out that way but the traffic is nutsy there now. I'll be working at Coventry so the southeast might be cool. I can't bear the thought of Orleans.
> Wife wants some space for the dog so maybe that's a good spot. I'll just have to live with the daily commute. TY again



I don't know when you were last out in Orleans, but it has changed a lot in the last two years.

It probably has the easiest access and best serviced routes in OC Transpo, and you can be downtown in 30 to 45 minutes on a work day if you take one of the Express buses.  "The Split" sucks going either way, but Innes is now four lanes from Industrial Rd to out past Trim Rd.  Houses are 40K less in Orleans than the same home in Kanata, and they don't suffer the almost weekly power outages that Kanata has.  Hunt Club Rd is going to be extended out to Orleans in the near future, unfortunately poor city planning has it merging with Innes at Blackburn Hamlet.  Perhaps they will develop some common dog f*** and not do that.  The Ontario Government would aid the city with some Infrastructure and Transportation improvements if the city would only get off its arse and make some decisions.  Too many levels of Government and none is willing to make a firm commitment..............other than appease the Environmentalists who are crippling the city.  

If you don't like Orleans, then there are a few places out a bit further like Enbrun and Vars.  Navin is almost part of Orleans now.  South of the Airport is all residential now.  Barrhaven seems to be moving south a city block a day.  

But this has little to do with a Pay Raise, nor the PLD that you won't be getting on your Posting here.


----------



## 284_226 (3 Dec 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I can think of one. His earlier CANFORGEN already stated that a pay raise (and it's amount) would not be announced until _*all*_ the tables had completed their negotiations and the amount received was determined.
> 
> Go ahead and read it. To date, the above still hasn't happened; perhaps that is considered good reason.
> 
> ...



Whoa, back up the truck.  I didn't say the CF or the CDS was trying to screw you, your family, or anyone else - nor am I in the habit of doing so.  Don't put words in my mouth, please.

What I'm saying is that there's nothing whatsoever in the latest CANFORGEN that would lead anyone to suspect that there's another pay adjustment coming.  

Back in the late 90's (and it had to be the mid to late 90's, as I have access to all the CANFORGENS since 2000 and I know I was a MS at the time), there was a CFG sent out basically saying "Wait, out" on one of the annual pay raises.  Then, at some point in time (October?), it was announced that since PSAC had not completed negotiations, an interim 2% (or thereabouts) increase would be given.  Then, later in that fiscal year, the "top-up" was given for comparability with the PS, once they had all settled.

Jump forward to April 2004.



> *CANFORGEN 058/04*
> SUBJ: PAY INCREASE - 1 APR 04
> REF: CANFORGEN 074/02 ADMHRMIL 042 031613Z JUL 02
> 1.  THE PURPOSE OF THIS MESSAGE IS TO EXPLAIN THE DELAY IN ANNOUNCING THE NCM/GSO/PILOT (LCOL AND BELOW)/MEDICAL/DENTAL OFFICERS (LT AND BELOW) PAY INCREASE FOR 2004/2005 AND TO PROVIDE AN UPDATE ON WHEN CF MEMBERS CAN EXPECT TO RECEIVE IT
> ...



Now jump to Oct 04...



> *CANFORGEN 134/04*
> SUBJ: GENERAL SERVICE OFFICER/NCM PAY ADJUSTMENT - FY 04/05
> REF: CANFORGEN 058/04 ADMHR MIL 031 161332Z APR 04 PAY INCREASE -
> 1 APR 04
> ...



Now on to Feb 05...



> *CANFORGEN 033/05*
> SUBJ: FY 04/05 AND 05/06 PAY INCREASES
> REF: CANFORGEN 155/04 ADM(HR-MIL) 083 171309Z DEC 04 1. THE MINISTER OF NATIONAL DEFENCE IS PLEASED TO ANNOUNCE THE FOLLOWING INCREASES TO PAY AND ENVIRONMENTAL ALLOWANCES 2. CF NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS A. EFFECTIVE 1 APR 04
> (1) AN ECONOMIC ADJUSTMENT OF 2.25 PERCENT AND
> ...



Now jump ahead to this year:



> UNCLAS *CANFORGEN 102/07* CMP 041/07
> SUBJ: STATUS OF PAY AND ENVIRONMENTAL ALLOWANCE INCREASES - EFFECTIVE 1 APR 07 - GENERAL SERVICE OFFICERS (GSO) AND PILOTS, LCOL AND BELOW, MEDICAL AND DENTAL (MED/DENT) OFFICER LTS AND 2LTS, AND NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS (NCM)
> 1.  THE PURPOSE OF THIS MSG IS TO PROVIDE YOU WITH AN UPDATE ON THE PRESENT SITUATION REGARDING FISCAL YEAR (FY) 07/08 PAY AND ENVIRONMENTAL ALLOWANCE INCREASES
> 2.  THE CF WILL NOT BE IN A POSITION TO DELIVER FY 07/08 PAY AND ENVIRONMENTAL ALLOWANCE INCREASES IN THE IMMEDIATE FUTURE FOR REASONS OUTLINED BELOW.  ONCE INCREASES ARE APPROVED, THEY WILL BE RETROACTIVE TO 1 APR 07
> ...



Now if you've been following along, anyone who has more than 10-12 years of service will remember:

a.  Getting an "interim" pay increase in the late 90's while PSAC and TBS did their thing, and received a top-up later;
b.  Getting told "we can't give you *anything* until PSAC and TBS finish their negotiations" in 04/05; and
c.  Getting told "we'll not have sufficient compensation data available to develop a rational and supportable pay raise for TBS consideration" in '07.

Reading CANFORGEN 102/07 above, can we now assume that they now have sufficient compensation data available to support a pay raise for TBS consideration, considering we've been given 2%?  Or is this another case of an "interim" pay raise, with a top-up to follow - which wasn't mentioned in the pay raise announcement?

Do you now see why there are still unanswered questions caused by the most recent CANFORGEN the suggestion that there may be a further adjustment this year is something that needs to be either dispelled as rumour, or communicated from CDS/CMP officially?

Edit:  last sentence


----------



## BinRat55 (3 Dec 2007)

Ok 284_226, now that you have managed to confuse everyone, let me attempt to untie the knot.  You have given a bunch of CANFORGEN's, but did you actually read them?  Maybe you have, and it's me who is now misunderstanding, but humor me and reread what you wrote.  You are saying that wheather or not there is actually another increase coming, the final CANFORGEN announcing the 2% adjustment leaves too many questions unanswered, or even actually closes the issue, right?  Well, I submit to you this:

CANFORGEN's 058/04 and 134/04 were essentially apologies for both the lateness of the "pay increase" (058/04) and "pay adjustment"(134/04) - both were announced together in CANFORGEN 035/05 (Pay Increases) which actually included an "economic adjustment" (sound familiar?) and an additional 1.03% increase to restore compatibility with the Public Service.

CANFORGEN 102/07 says that the CF pay model is adjusted accordingly to maintain the _required _ pay relativity...

So, as Vern said, the CDS has better things to do with his time than repeat thing to us.


----------



## 284_226 (3 Dec 2007)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Ok 284_226, now that you have managed to confuse everyone, let me attempt to untie the knot.  You have given a bunch of CANFORGEN's, but did you actually read them?  Maybe you have, and it's me who is now misunderstanding, but humor me and reread what you wrote.  You are saying that wheather or not there is actually another increase coming, the final CANFORGEN announcing the 2% adjustment leaves too many questions unanswered, or even actually closes the issue, right?  Well, I submit to you this:
> 
> CANFORGEN's 058/04 and 134/04 were essentially apologies for both the lateness of the "pay increase" (058/04) and "pay adjustment"(134/04) - both were announced together in CANFORGEN 035/05 (Pay Increases) which actually included an "economic adjustment" (sound familiar?) and an additional 1.03% increase to restore compatibility with the Public Service.



I would submit to you that in CANFORGEN 058/04, 134/04, and 058/04, the terms "adjustment" and "increase" were used interchangeably.  The first refers to a "pay increase", the second to a "pay adjustment", and the latter solely to an "economic adjustment" and an "adjustment", with no reference to a "pay adjustment" or "pay increase".  If there is to be a distinction made between a COLA and a compatibility comparability adjustment, better terminology needs to be clearly defined.



> CANFORGEN 102/07 says that the CF pay model is adjusted accordingly to maintain the _required _ pay relativity...



It does.  It also refers to "THIS ECONOMIC INCREASE", "PAY ADJUSTMENTS", and "PAY INCREASE".  CANFORGEN 102/07 went so far as to say that there was inadequate data to approach TBS with a "rational and supportable" request for a "pay raise".  Now that we've received word that we're getting 2% as an economic increase/pay adjustment/pay increase, does that infer that someone approached TBS with a "rational and supportable" request for a pay raise?  Did it include a comparability adjustment?  I have no idea.  Their terminology is all over the place, and the messages are vague.



> So, as Vern said, the CDS has better things to do with his time than repeat thing to us.



It wouldn't be repeating.  If there is truly to be a further "compatibility comparability adjustment", to be given after PSAC settles, then he didn't bother to include it in CANFORGEN 175/07.
_
edit:  comparability vice compatibility.  I need a proofreader..._


----------



## BinRat55 (3 Dec 2007)

> If there is truly to be a further "compatibility adjustment", to be given after PSAC settles, then he didn't bother to include it in CANFORGEN 175/07



Nor should he.

175/07 clearly states "economic adjustment".  As well, it was put _as _ clearly in 102/07 that we would be informed when all tables settle and all info was gathered and analyzed as to the status of our "pay increase".

We seem to be reading the exact same thing completely diffrent.  The truth will be told when it happens or when it doesn't happen.  I'll still be here and i'll still be getting 2% back dated to Apr 07.  The up side is, if i'm right, we make out just that much better.  If not?  There's always PLD...  Did I say that out loud???


----------



## Sigop2004 (4 Dec 2007)

FYI everyone Canforgen 182/07, 183/07 and 184/07 that came out earlier today will clarify everyones questions about the PAY/PLD/Environmental Allowances . I don't know if they are on the canforgen site yet but they should be. I processed these incoming messages at around 1415 PST 3 Dec 07.
 8)


----------



## 284_226 (4 Dec 2007)

> UNCLAS CANFORGEN 184/07 CMP 079/07
> SIC WAS
> SECTION 1 OF 3
> SUBJ: 1 APRIL 2007 -  REGULAR FORCE - PAY RATES
> ...



(internet website has not been updated yet as of the time of this post)

CANFORGEN 182/07 (PLD) posted in the other thread - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/52775.0/all.html
_
But again, no mention of a comparability adjustment...._

edit:  add link to PLD thread


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (4 Dec 2007)

CANFORGEN 184/07 CMP 079/07 031547Z DEC 07
1 APRIL 2007 - REGULAR FORCE - PAY RATES
UNCLASSIFIED


REF: CANFORGEN 175/07 CDS 041/07 281405Z NOV 07 
BILINGUAL MESSAGE / MESSAGE BILINGUE 



AS ANNOUNCED AT REF, THERE WILL BE A 2.0 PERCENT ECONOMIC ADJUSTMENT FOR GENERAL SERVICE OFFICERS (GSO) AND PILOTS (LCOL AND BELOW), MEDICAL AND DENTAL OFFICERS (LT AND BELOW), AND NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS (NCM). THIS PAY RAISE IS EFFECTIVE 1 APRIL 2007. 


THE REVISED RATES OF PAY EFFECTIVE 1 APRIL 2007 ARE CONTAINED IN PARAGRAPHS 5 TO 11. RATES OF PAY ARE ALSO AVAILABLE ON THE DGCB WEBSITE AT (HTTP://WWW.DND.CA/HR/DGCB/DPPD/ENGRAPH/HOME(UNDERSCORE)E.ASP). FOR ALL AFFECTED CBI TABLES, THE NEW RATES READ: 


QUOTE 1 APRIL 2007 UNQUOTE 


QUOTE AFTER MARCH 2007 UNQUOTE 


QUOTE 31 MARCH 2007 UNQUOTE 


SUBSTITUTE THE TABLE TO CBI 204.21 (PAY - GENERAL SERVICE OFFICERS) WITH THE FOLLOWING. READ COLUMNS AS FOLLOWS: RANK AND PAY INCREMENT (BASIC, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10) - QUOTE

CAPT 5602 5817 6027 6241 6446 6647 6844 7048 7166 7284 7405
MAJ 7575 7709 7840 7971 8102 8233 8364 8496 XXXX XXXX XXXX
LCOL 8780 8922 9059 9203 9344 XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX

UNQUOTE 


SUBSTITUTE THE TABLES TO CBI 204.211 (PAY - GENERAL SERVICE OFFICERS - OFFICER ENTRY PLANS - LT, 2LT AND OCDT) WITH THE FOLLOWING: 


TABLE A TO CBI 204.211 IS REPLACED BY (READ COLUMNS AS FOLLOWS: RANK, PAY LEVEL AND PAY INCREMENT (BASIC, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)) - QUOTE

OCDT A 1415 1444 1477 1505 XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX
OCDT B 2557 2663 3079 3199 XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX

UNQUOTE 


TABLE B TO CBI 204.211 IS REPLACED BY (READ COLUMNS AS FOLLOWS: RANK, PAY LEVEL AND PAY INCREMENT (BASIC, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)) - QUOTE

2LT A 4055 4113 XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX
2LT B 3224 3413 3737 4066 XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX
2LT C 3468 3761 4055 4355 4654 4954 5251 XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX
2LT D 4426 4557 4694 4836 4982 5130 5284 5443 5605 5773 5948
2LT E 4479 4612 4751 4893 5042 5192 5348 5507 5674 5844 6017

UNQUOTE 


TABLE C TO CBI 204.211 IS REPLACED BY (READ COLUMNS AS FOLLOWS: RANK, PAY LEVEL AND PAY INCREMENT (BASIC, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)) - QUOTE

LT A 4419 4719 5020 5318 XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX
LT B 3413 3737 4066 4427 4794 XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX
LT C 3813 4113 4266 4419 4570 4719 4869 5020 5170 5318 XXXX
LT D 4544 4726 4914 5113 5317 5530 5749 5980 6221 6468 6728
LT E 4722 4910 5107 5312 5525 5745 5975 6216 6463 6722 6991

UNQUOTE 


SUBSTITUTE THE TABLE TO CBI 204.214 (PAY - NAVIGATORS) WITH THE FOLLOWING. READ COLUMNS AS FOLLOWS: RANK AND PAY INCREMENT (BASIC, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10) - QUOTE

CAPT XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX 7610

UNQUOTE 


SUBSTITUTE TABLE A TO CBI 204.215 - (PAY - PILOTS - LCOL, MAJ AND CAPT) WITH THE FOLLOWING. READ COLUMNS AS FOLLOWS: RANK AND PAY INCREMENT (BASIC, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10) - QUOTE

CAPT 5987 6257 6564 7173 7555 7851 8040 8243 8363 8410 8445
MAJ 8533 8619 8682 8748 8834 8924 8959 9012 XXXX XXXX XXXX
LCOL 9102 9212 9317 9406 9500 XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX
UNQUOTE 


SUBSTITUTE TABLE B TO CBI 204.215 - (PAY - PILOTS - CAPT) WITH THE FO LLOWING. READ COLUMNS AS FOLLOWS: RANK AND PAY INCREMENT (BASIC, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10) - QUOTE

CAPT 5679 6038 6564 7173 7555 7851 8040 8243 8363 8410 8445

UNQUOTE 


SUBSTITUTE THE TABLES TO CBI 204.2156 (PAY - PILOTS - OFFICER ENTRY PLANS, LT AND 2LT) WITH THE FOLLOWING: 


TABLE A TO CBI 204.2156 IS REPLACED BY (READ COLUMNS AS FOLLOWS: RANK, PAY LEVEL AND PAY INCREMENT (BASIC, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)) - QUOTE

2LT A 4291 4350 XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX
2LT B 3459 3649 3783 3918 XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX
2LT C 3703 3997 4291 XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX
2LT D 4581 4719 4859 5006 5155 5310 5468 5633 5803 5977 6156

UNQUOTE 


TABLE B TO CBI 204.2156 IS REPLACED BY (READ COLUMNS AS FOLLOWS: RANK, PAY LEVEL AND PAY INCREMENT (BASIC, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)) - QUOTE

LT A 4805 5102 5407 5704 XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX
LT B 4124 4450 4812 5181 XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX
LT C 4048 4350 4500 4805 5102 5407 5704 XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX
LT D 4700 4889 5085 5287 5499 5719 5948 6185 6433 6689 6958

UNQUOTE 


SUBSTITUTE THE TABLES TO CBIS 204.216 (PAY - MEDICAL OFFICERS) AND CBI 204.217 - (PAY - DENTAL OFFICERS) WITH THE FOLLOWING: 


TABLE A TO CBI 204.216 AND 204.217 IS REPLACED BY (READ COLUMNS AS FOLLOWS: RANK AND PAY INCREMENT (BASIC, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)) - QUOTE

2LT 3761 4055 4355 XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX

UNQUOTE 


TABLE B TO CBI 204.216 AND 204.217 IS REPLACED BY (READ COLUMNS AS FOLLOWS: RANK AND PAY INCREMENT (BASIC, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)) - QUOTE

LT 4654 4954 XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX

UNQUOTE 


SUBSTITUTE THE TABLE TO CBI 204.30 (PAY - NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS) WITH THE FOLLOWING. READ COLUMNS AS FOLLOWS: RANK, PAY LEVEL, PAY INCREMENT AND TRADE GROUP (STANDARD, SPECIALIST 1 AND SPECIALIST 2) - QUOTE

PTE 1 1 2534 XXXX XXXX
PTE 1 2 3099 XXXX XXXX
PTE 1 3 3722 XXXX XXXX
CPL 5A BASIC 4260 4770 5051
CPL 5A 1 4322 4854 5151
CPL 5A 2 4384 4935 5252
CPL 5A 3 4445 5018 5354
CPL 5A 4 4504 5103 5455
CPL 5B BASIC 4437 4952 5235
CPL 5B 1 4499 5038 5337
CPL 5B 2 4557 5122 5436
CPL 5B 3 4622 5202 5537
CPL 5B 4 4684 5290 5644
SGT 6A BASIC 4893 5484 5811
SGT 6A 1 4941 5535 5865
SGT 6A 2 4991 5591 5918
SGT 6A 3 5045 5645 5970
SGT 6A 4 5092 5694 6023
WO 6B BASIC 5451 5938 6165
WO 6B 1 5502 5989 6217
WO 6B 2 5550 6044 6270
WO 6B 3 5606 6097 6325
WO 6B 4 5657 6144 6374
MWO 7 BASIC 6016 6420 6551
MWO 7 1 6076 6483 6616
MWO 7 2 6138 6549 6678
MWO 7 3 6199 6612 6741
MWO 7 4 6260 6675 6802
CWO 8A BASIC 6678 6678 6678
CWO 8A 1 6749 6749 6749
CWO 8A 2 6822 6822 6822
CWO 8A 3 6889 6889 6889
CWO 8A 4 6957 6957 6957
CWO 8B BASIC 7145 7145 7145
CWO 8B 1 7222 7222 7222
CWO 8B 2 7299 7299 7299
CWO 8B 3 7372 7372 7372
CWO 8B 4 7445 7445 7445
CWO 8C BASIC 7432 7432 7432 CWO 8C 1 7510 7510 7510
CWO 8C 2 7591 7591 7591
CWO 8C 3 7666 7666 7666
CWO 8C 4 7742 7742 7742

UNQUOTE


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (4 Dec 2007)

CANFORGEN 183/07 CMP 078/07 031551Z DEC 07
1 APRIL 2007 - RESERVE FORCE - PAY RATES
UNCLASSIFIED


REF: CANFORGEN 175/07 CDS 041/07 281405Z NOV 07 



AS ANNOUNCED AT REF, THERE WILL BE A 2.0 PERCENT ECONOMIC ADJUSTMENT FOR GENERAL SERVICE OFFICERS (GSO) AND PILOTS (LCOL AND BELOW), AND NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS (NCM). THIS PAY RAISE IS EFFECTIVE 1 APRIL 2007. 


THE REVISED RATES ARE EFFECTIVE 1 APR 07 AND ARE CONTAINED IN PARAGRAPHS 3 AND 4. FOR ALL AFFECTED CBI TABLES, THE NEW RATES READ: 


QUOTE 1 APRIL 2007 UNQUOTE 


QUOTE AFTER MARCH 2007 UNQUOTE 


QUOTE 31 MARCH 2007 UNQUOTE 


CBI 204.52 (PAY - OFFICERS) 


SUBSTITUTE THE NEW TABLE QUOTE B UNQUOTE WITH THE FOLLOWING. READ COLUMNS AS FOLLOWS: RANK AND PAY INCREMENT (BASIC, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10) - QUOTE

OCDT 89.48 93.14 96.86 103.28 XXX.XX XXX.XX XXX.XX XXX.XX XXX.XX XXX.XX XXX.XX
2LT A 98.46 102.56 107.52 111.28 XXX.XX XXX.XX XXX.XX XXX.XX XXX.XX XXX.XX XXX.XX
2LT B 123.68 127.34 131.18 135.14 139.22 143.36 147.66 152.10 156.64 161.32 166.22
2LT C 125.16 128.88 132.76 136.74 140.90 145.10 149.46 153.90 158.56 163.32 168.14
LT A 125.30 129.16 133.16 136.72 140.28 XXX.XX XXX.XX XXX.XX XXX.XX XXX.XX XXX.XX
LT B 126.98 132.06 137.32 142.88 148.58 154.54 160.66 167.12 173.84 180.74 188.02
LT C 131.96 137.22 142.72 148.44 154.40 160.54 166.98 173.70 180.60 187.84 195.36
CAPT 156.54 162.56 168.42 174.40 180.14 185.76 191.26 196.96 200.26 203.56 206.94
MAJ 211.68 215.42 219.10 222.76 226.42 230.08 233.74 237.42 XXX.XX XXX.XX XXX.XX
LCOL 245.36 249.32 253.16 257.18 261.12 XXX.XX XXX.XX XXX.XX XXX.XX XXX.XX XXX.XX

UNQUOTE 


SUBSTITUTE THE NEW TABLE QUOTE C UNQUOTE WITH THE FOLLOWING. READ COLUMNS AS FOLLOWS: RANK AND PAY INCREMENT (BASIC, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10) - QUOTE

LT 148.78 152.96 157.28 163.58 170.12 176.90 184.00 191.32 XXX.XX XXX.XX XXX.XX
CAPT 167.30 174.86 183.44 200.46 211.12 219.40 224.68 230.36 233.70 235.02 236.00
MAJ 238.46 240.86 242.62 244.46 246.86 249.38 250.36 251.84 XXX.XX XXX.XX XXX.XX
LCOL 254.36 257.44 260.36 262.86 265.48 XXX.XX XXX.XX XXX.XX XXX.XX XXX.XX XXX.XX

UNQUOTE 


SUBSTITUTE THE TABLE TO CBI 204.53 (PAY - NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS) WITH THE FOLLOWING. READ COLUMNS AS FOLLOWS: RANK, PAY LEVEL, TRADE GROUP AND PAY INCREMENT (BASIC, 1, 2, 3, 4) - QUOTE

PTE 1 STD XXX.XX 81.54 92.46 104.02 XXX.XX
CPL A 2 STD 119.04 120.78 122.52 124.22 125.86
CPL A 2 SPEC 1 133.30 135.64 137.90 140.22 142.60
CPL A 2 SPEC 2 141.16 143.94 146.76 149.62 152.44
CPL B 3 STD 124.00 125.72 127.34 129.16 130.90
CPL B 3 SPEC 1 138.38 140.78 143.14 145.38 147.84
CPL B 3 SPEC 2 146.30 149.14 151.92 154.74 157.72
SGT 4 STD 136.74 138.08 139.48 140.98 142.30
SGT 4 SPEC 1 153.26 154.68 156.24 157.76 159.12
SGT 4 SPEC 2 162.38 163.90 165.38 166.84 168.32
WO 5 STD 152.32 153.76 155.10 156.66 158.08
WO 5 SPEC 1 165.94 167.36 168.90 170.38 171.70
WO 5 SPEC 2 172.28 173.74 175.22 176.76 178.12
MWO 6 STD 168.12 169.80 171.52 173.24 174.94
MWO 6 SPEC 1 179.40 181.16 183.02 184.78 186.54
MWO 6 SPEC 2 183.06 184.88 186.62 188.38 190.08
CWO 7A STD 186.62 188.60 190.64 192.52 194.42
CWO 7A SPEC 1 186.62 188.60 190.64 192.52 194.42
CWO 7A SPEC 2 186.62 188.60 190.64 192.52 194.42
CWO 7B STD 199.66 201.82 203.98 206.02 208.06
CWO 7B SPEC 1 199.66 201.82 203.98 206.02 208.06
CWO 7B SPEC 2 199.66 201.82 203.98 206.02 208.06
CWO 7C STD 207.68 209.86 212.14 214.22 216.36
CWO 7C SPEC 1 207.68 209.86 212.14 214.22 216.36
CWO 7C SPEC 2 207.68 209.86 212.14 214.22 216.36

UNQUOTE


----------



## Scratch_043 (11 Dec 2007)

Thanks Quag.

Was there any mention of when the adjustment actually show up on our pay, and when back payment is made?

Nic


----------



## aesop081 (11 Dec 2007)

ToRN said:
			
		

> and when back payment is made?



If you would go back and read the CANFORGEN announcing the 2% increase you would see that the back payment is anticipated to be on the end of March pay.



> CF PAY: THERE WILL BE A 2.0 PERCENT PAY INCREASE FOR ALL GENERAL SERVICE OFFICERS (GSO) AND ALL NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS (NCM). THE SAME INCREASE APPLIES TO PILOTS (LCOL AND BELOW), AND MEDICAL AND DENTAL OFFICERS (LT AND 2LT). THIS ECONOMIC INCREASE IS EFFECTIVE 1 APRIL 2007 *AND IS ANTICIPATED TO BE DELIVERED IN YOUR END-MARCH 2008 PAY. * REMEMBER THAT PAY ADJUSTMENTS LIKE THESE REMAIN AN IMPORTANT FACTOR IN THE LONG-TERM CALCULATION OF YOUR PENSION AND BENEFITS. THE SAME PERCENTAGE INCREASE APPLIES TO ENVIRONMENTAL ALLOWANCES AND TO THE CFS ALERT ALLOWANCE


----------



## geo (11 Dec 2007)

A big problem is that, because the retro will show up in the new year... a lot of it will be applied against the new year's CPP & EI amounts


----------



## SweetNavyJustice (11 Dec 2007)

> A big problem is that, because the retro will show up in the new year... a lot of it will be applied against the new year's CPP & EI amounts



It will be taxed based on your income, but generally from my experience, we don't get hit with CPP and EI deductions on the income on the front end.  

As we always max out on these deductions based on our salaries, they don't take the amounts off of the back pays.  

Admittedly, I'm out of my lane on this, but I've never seen them take the monies off in previous years back pays.  

As an aside, if they did take CPP and EI off, it would just mean that we maxed out on our deductions earlier and our net pay would increase in Aug/Sept instead of Sept/Oct.


----------



## PO2FinClk (11 Dec 2007)

Yup, if received in the new year, taxable in that year, and as SweetNavyJustice said will max out earlier rather then later for CPP & EI.


----------



## geo (12 Dec 2007)

SNJ & PO, you are right, we'll just max out our contributions earlier than expected BUT, I felt I should point it out cause many will be expecting to see XXXX$ Retro, minus basic F&P taxes (only).


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (12 Dec 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> A big problem is that, because the retro will show up in the new year... a lot of it will be applied against the new year's CPP & EI amounts



Yea, but I love when, because of the extra they take off for my summer overtime, I get about 5 months with no deductions.
Speaking of which, January is coming.....


----------



## Nfld Sapper (15 Dec 2007)

Interesting side note to this, just got briefed today that it seems that CFSME has been designated a "field unit" so therefore are entitled to FEA


----------



## geo (15 Dec 2007)

CFSME is a field unit now?  Is this just a financial manipulation or is there any meaning to this change?


----------



## Nfld Sapper (15 Dec 2007)

From what I got from todays briefing for FEA, yes. 

Maybe I will ask the PO on it in the New Year, as my unit has stood down for christmas.


----------



## geo (15 Dec 2007)

Most units, Reg & Res wound up their training this week.  Admin has pert much ground to a halt till Jan 7th... though I have a course scheduled for Mon & Tues of this week... then it's leave till the 7th


----------



## Nfld Sapper (15 Dec 2007)

Well I get to work over christmas and new years with an in-house BMQ course lol


----------



## geo (15 Dec 2007)

Fun!


----------



## fraserdw (27 Dec 2007)

CFSME is now a field unit because it is now part of the Combat Training Centre and thus the Army.  The Army considers all it's training centres field units and therefore Field Pay.


----------



## 1feral1 (27 Dec 2007)

PO2FinClk said:
			
		

> In short, if something regarding a pay raise were to come out by the end of March, it would be far more a surprise then anything else. This is not to say impossible, simply very unlikely. So there really is no point in asking as the answer would only be based on rumour and speculation possibly raising empty hopes.



You lot better put a formal complaint into the Union about this!

 ;D

Cheers,

Wes

EDITed, could not spell union right  :


----------



## vonGarvin (27 Dec 2007)

fraserdw said:
			
		

> CFSME is now a field unit because it is now part of the Combat Training Centre and thus the Army.  The Army considers all it's training centres field units and therefore Field Pay.


I could understand certain parts of the training system (read: schools) as "field"; however, in my three years at the Infantry Armour School, I rarely went to the field and probably got a grand total of 5 weeks of field pay in that time: I was in standards, so I didn't instruct (much) at the school.  Most of the time when I instructed, I was in and out of the field, thus avoiding the requisite straight 24 hours (or whatever) to make me eligible.
Some positions are definately in the field more often than some in field units.  Were I to receive such field pay (or whatever) when it's approved (in whatever form), I honestly don't think that I would have deserved it for such a jammy position.
EDIT: I've been in a field unit now for the past 5 months and have already spent more time in the field than in the past 3 years.


----------



## PO2FinClk (30 Dec 2007)

Wesley  Down Under said:
			
		

> You lot better put a formal complaint into the Union about this!


That post was from 9 months ago!


----------



## PO2FinClk (4 Mar 2008)

For those who were not already aware, the pay raise has been actioned in CCPS and will be reflected on your Mid March 08 pay. The M/March Pay Statements are due for release on 06 Mar 08 so will be able to see exactly how much it is worth then.



> CCPS Advisory - E01008
> Advisory list
> Date: 25 Feb 2008  Updated - 26 Feb 2008
> Subject: Pay and environmental allowances increases
> ...


----------



## The_Falcon (4 Mar 2008)

What about RPSR?


----------



## PO2FinClk (4 Mar 2008)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> What about RPSR?


No idea, I am not involved is the Res F side of the house and there is no mention of it on the DMPAP webiste. Perhaps a CANFORGEN is forthcoming on the issue.


----------



## Redeye (4 Mar 2008)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> What about RPSR?



It's coming on the next pay for us too.


----------



## dapaterson (4 Mar 2008)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> What about RPSR?


While there's nothing posted on the RPSR DIN site yet, browsing within the application shows that the new pay rates have been input.  As the actual payrun hasn't been processed yet, I suspect they are holding off on the announcement until they know it has been properly processed.


----------



## combatbuddha (4 Mar 2008)

fraserdw said:
			
		

> CFSME is now a field unit because it is now part of the Combat Training Centre and thus the Army.  The Army considers all it's training centres field units and therefore Field Pay.


I suppose this will include CFSEME as well, as the EME branch is now considered a hard Army branch.
This would be pure *&^%. Desk flying garri-troopers whose last trip to the field was during their BFT.
IMHO there may be some confusion between the designation of "field units" and "Operational Units." Units that would form the core of a Battle Group or sub unit within that BG. Units that would normally deploy to war or domestic Ops as part of a brigade. 
To my understanding this was the original meaning and intent of the proposed changes. I know some people at certain training establishments spend more time in the field than some folks on the pointy end, but that's why the daily rate is still intended to apply. Training is important, but from what I remember from the brieifngs I attended is that the new monthly allowance was meant as an incentive to keep folks in operational units so that they don't have to beg for personnel from non deploying positions.
I have heard from a source who said that some pers in Pet were briefed about this new allowance and that it'll be on the mid or end March pay.
No foolin, this was from more than one source and unit in the Pet area. I think it's bunk, but these guys are positive about it. Does Pet know something that the rest of the Army doesn't?
All in all it doesn't matter. My pay goes in electronically at 0000hrs and gets electronically dispersed to the bill people at 0001hrs on the 15th and 30th (or31st) of each month, and it's enough to keep me happy and soldiering on! 
My two bits


----------



## CDNBlackhawk (5 Mar 2008)

I just want to clarify this, I went to my Clerk 2 days ago  and asked her about our Pay raise and back pay, she said mid march and showed me that i am getting half of my back pay on the 15th and the other half at the end of the month. I then Asked Her about this Full time Field pay (environmental pay) whatever its called. She said its been approved and we will be getting it sometime in 2008 and we also would be getting back pay for this till last April.
So i want to clarify if we are getting or not getting this environmental pay in march


----------



## PO2FinClk (6 Mar 2008)

*CDN*Blackhawk said:
			
		

> I just want to clarify this, I went to my Clerk 2 days ago  and asked her about our Pay raise and back pay, she said mid march and showed me that i am getting half of my back pay on the 15th and the other half at the end of the month. I then Asked Her about this Full time Field pay (environmental pay) whatever its called. She said its been approved and we will be getting it sometime in 2008 and we also would be getting back pay for this till last April.
> So i want to clarify if we are getting or not getting this environmental pay in march


First, why your "raise" back pay was split between your 2 pays I do not know, it should all be on your Mid March.

Off topic, on the issue of the Field Allowance, no official direction has been issued. All that has has been various briefs by various authorities on the subject, some more credible then others. So unless actual written direction from DMPAP is available, it remains at the rumint stage and not worth banking on. I was also briefed that it should be retro-active to 01 Apr 08, but until I see it on paper am not believing it as with many other things which had been stated that did not quite occur the same way when it fanially came about.


----------



## PMedMoe (6 Mar 2008)

Mid-month pay statement is on EMAA now and I am getting *all* of my back pay in Mid-March.  ;D


----------



## Eye In The Sky (6 Mar 2008)

Ya but minus all the taxes and pension amounts, so axe off 40-50%.  And, for the record, it is not a 2008 pay raise.  It is a 2007 retro pay raise, that the government gave you no interest on their 'balance-owing' on.


----------



## armyvern (6 Mar 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> ya minus all the taxes.  so axe off 30-40%.



I'll still take the 60-70% ...

They'd have taken the taxes anyway in any case, that's not unusual. A few more coffees for me!


----------



## Eye In The Sky (6 Mar 2008)

Sorry I editted my post when you were quoting me  ;D.

The $ is good, I just think that this policy of withholding it for a year is for the dogs.


----------



## armyvern (6 Mar 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Sorry I editted my post when you were quoting me  ;D.
> 
> The $ is good, I just think that this policy of withholding it for a year is for the dogs.



No worries -- I'd take a mere 20% ... it's still more in my change purse.


----------



## vonGarvin (6 Mar 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> No worries -- I'd take a mere 20% ... it's still more* in my change purse*.


You have a change purse?  SWEET!

 >


----------



## armyvern (6 Mar 2008)

Mortarman Rockpainter said:
			
		

> You have a change purse?  SWEET!
> 
> >



Yes I do -- a little leopard print patterned one -- why?? Do I need to buy you a darn coffee??


----------



## vonGarvin (6 Mar 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Yes I do -- a little leopard print patterned one -- why?? Do I need to buy you a darn coffee??


No, no need for you to buy me a coffee (darned or not) 

Just making sure I know where to put the tips  >

(j/k)


----------



## armyvern (6 Mar 2008)

Mortarman Rockpainter said:
			
		

> No, no need for you to buy me a coffee (darned or not)
> 
> Just making sure I know where to put the tips  >
> 
> (j/k)



Damn ... you're just kidding?? I was sooooooo in!!  ;D


----------



## vonGarvin (6 Mar 2008)

Maybe I was kidding...maybe I wasn't  >


----------



## armyvern (6 Mar 2008)

Mortarman Rockpainter said:
			
		

> Maybe I was kidding...maybe I wasn't  >



It's too late now. I've decided; you _were_ kidding.  ;D


----------



## vonGarvin (6 Mar 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> It's too late now. I've decided; you _were_ kidding.  ;D


:rofl:

Dang it.  I shoulda known better.

Now, to keep on topic: yes, my EMAA shows my back pay as coming to me (er...to my wife!) on 15 March.  What is it that they say about the Ides of March?  "It's all good?"

;D


----------



## armyvern (6 Mar 2008)

Mortarman Rockpainter said:
			
		

> :rofl:
> 
> Dang it.  I shoulda known better.
> 
> ...



Ah yes, the good old Girl Rule # 17: "what's mine, is mine & what's his, is ours". Awesome thing that it is.  >


----------



## helpup (6 Mar 2008)

It works much better when both are in.  My wife outranks me and is bringing in alot more.  My impluse is to pay down bills hers is to schedual a Costco trip.  Being the couple we are we are doing a bit of colum A and colum B.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (6 Mar 2008)

helpup said:
			
		

> My wife outranks me...



But of course she does.   8)  Regardless of if she is/is not military, civilian...etc etc

 ;D


----------



## PMedMoe (6 Mar 2008)

I'll gladly take the extra "chunk of change" on my mid-month pay along with (hopefully soon) my tax refund (which was e-filed last night).  After all, there's three weekends between mid-month and end month pay for March.
We have some "home improvement" work to be done over the holidays!


----------



## dapaterson (6 Mar 2008)

I'm looking at home renovations as well - it's time to fix that empty beer fridge...


----------



## Springroll (6 Mar 2008)

deck building time at my house...and maybe a Costco run...lol

Glad to hear it is coming mid march instead of end march. Just in time for my birthday!


----------



## helpup (6 Mar 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> But of course she does.   8)  Regardless of if she is/is not military, civilian...etc etc
> 
> ;D



We get that statement alot and in the end we both have our not moving from positions.  For the most part though we be equals............ Or so she lets me think.


----------



## CDNBlackhawk (6 Mar 2008)

Thanks for the reply, i am gonna have to go find out why my Pay raise back pay is being split up, at least thats what she showed me, because if my mid month is only what i am getting something is not right , because i am only getting  around 300 bucks of back pay,  when it should be more like 880 minus taxes.

thanks again


----------



## BinRat55 (6 Mar 2008)

*CDN*Blackhawk said:
			
		

> Thanks for the reply, i am gonna have to go find out why my Pay raise back pay is being split up, at least thats what she showed me, because if my mid month is only what i am getting something is not right , because i am only getting  around 300 bucks of back pay,  when it should be more like 880 minus taxes.
> 
> thanks again



That would be close - i'm only getting 500ish... I estimate 400ish based on your pay rate...


----------



## CDNBlackhawk (6 Mar 2008)

Are they taxing us like crazy on this, because 2% of 44000 is 880 dollars. that would be like taking 60%ish off for taxes, it just seems crazy to me, i guess i will just have to double check with my clerk tomorrow.
thanks for the help


----------



## Inch (6 Mar 2008)

*CDN*Blackhawk said:
			
		

> Are they taxing us like crazy on this, because 2% of 44000 is 880 dollars. that would be like taking 60%ish off for taxes, it just seems crazy to me, i guess i will just have to double check with my clerk tomorrow.
> thanks for the help



Don't forget that CPP, EI and Pension also come off, not just tax. I'm getting $1683 for back pay including Aircrew allowance and Sea Pay, and I'm only seeing $786 which means they're taking 54%. IIRC, back pays are usually taxed at your marginal tax rate, not your regular tax rate.

Your pay statement breaks it all down, you've probably got an incentive in there somewhere so that'll affect your back pay, it's not 2% of what you're making now, it's 2% of what you've been making for the past year on a month by month basis.


----------



## dapaterson (7 Mar 2008)

From the RPSR logon screen today:



> Subject:  PAY AND ENVIRONMENTAL ALLOWANCES INCREASES
> REF: A.  CANFORGEN 175/07 CDS 041/07 281405Z NOV 07
> B. CANFORGEN 185/07 CMP 080/07 031538Z DEC 07
> Pay and Environmental Allowances increases have been actioned by RPSR. The adjustments will be reflected on the mid March 2008 PAYRUN.



And, looking at my own pay, it has been actionned (for me at least).


EDIT to add:  And, after taxes, I'm getting 48 cents on the dollar.


----------



## Jammer (7 Mar 2008)

Mortarman Rockpainter said:
			
		

> :rofl:
> 
> Dang it.  I shoulda known better.
> 
> ...


Yippee!!!!
More Jamaican Blue Mountain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## CDNBlackhawk (7 Mar 2008)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> From the RPSR logon screen today:
> 
> And, looking at my own pay, it has been actionned (for me at least).
> 
> ...



Interesting, is this the same environmental pay that is suppose to be a full time pay for us "field Units" I ask because nothing has come down from Our COC that we are getting this mid march,  And My Mid month pay does not show this allowance, it just shows the 2% pay increase.  All we have been told is,  depending on how long we have been with a field unit is what determines how much our monthly environmental (field) allowance is going to be,  for example:  Privates would get roughly 300 and  warrant would get 700, i am not saying these are the right amounts we are getting. I am looking for clarification on how much it is  that we are actually going to be getting on a monthly bases. 

thanks again


----------



## PO2FinClk (7 Mar 2008)

As mentioned before, until you see an official announcement detailing the administrative way ahead for any new Field Allowance, IT IS NOT ACTIONED! 

This is in no way different then any other new initiative dealing with Compensation Benefits, wait for official direction. The current raise to enviromental allowances are for existing ones, not proposed, planned, mentioned, briefed or thought of allowance.


----------



## dapaterson (7 Mar 2008)

To add to PO2FinClk's post:

The adjustments to environmental allowances are merely the increase to the furrent FOA and all the other casual and permanent allowances.  Not any new ones yet.

Don't worry - once the new one becomes real (sort of like the Velveteen Rabbit), everyone will know.


----------



## brihard (14 Mar 2008)

Well, this is curious... My pay has been running smoothly for some time now, my account was all balanced off, I had the amount of money I should have... So today I go to check my pay, and what do I find? Two months worth of pay all sitting there as of this morning. I like back pay as much as the next guy, but even with back pay I can't fathom how the hell this much money decided to show up. Anyone else get a very weird pay deposit today?


----------



## dapaterson (14 Mar 2008)

It's 2% of your earnings from 01 Apr 07 through today.  As a class A reservist, it may seem like a large extra amount, but remember that an yperiods of full-time service also get that 2% top-up; so that 4 week course last summer (for example) will boost your net pay significantly.


----------



## brihard (14 Mar 2008)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> It's 2% of your earnings from 01 Apr 07 through today.  As a class A reservist, it may seem like a large extra amount, but remember that an yperiods of full-time service also get that 2% top-up; so that 4 week course last summer (for example) will boost your net pay significantly.



Understood- but with 5 months of class C and two months of class B, I should still be looking at an amount of under $800, plus my normal monthly pay. Even if I got both at once, and even if they finalized my claim from September through til now and added that in as well, that still should be less than what I got today... Dammit

Anyone got a contact number for the NSE BOR in H-118 in Petawawa? I'm in Nova Scotia on leave, and my entire chain of command is scattered all over the country. A simple phone call to one of our clerks would probably get me the answer I need...


----------



## dapaterson (14 Mar 2008)

You should have received both class B and class C retro, along with class A.  If you can check your bank online, you should see two deposits:  one for class B and one for class C (assuming your class C was paid by CCPS - if it was RPSR then there will be only one deposit).  If there are three deposits it means you got your claim as well.

Are there any other things that you get direct deposit?   For example, last week I got my income tax return back.


----------



## The_Pipes (14 Mar 2008)

That really is odd bri as I got my class b retro and haven't received anything for retro on the Class C from September yet


----------



## brihard (14 Mar 2008)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> You should have received both class B and class C retro, along with class A.  If you can check your bank online, you should see two deposits:  one for class B and one for class C (assuming your class C was paid by CCPS - if it was RPSR then there will be only one deposit).  If there are three deposits it means you got your claim as well.
> 
> Are there any other things that you get direct deposit?   For example, last week I got my income tax return back.



It's all one deposit- 'Canada Pay', which I believe is just class C. My class A and B always showed up in my bank under my service number. RPSR and the reg force pay system (CCPS?) should generate different deposits.

My taxes aren't filed yet. I'm still waiting on my RPSR generated T4 and another slip from my bank. They may have finalized my claim, which could account for rather a lot, bu I don't think so...

Whatever. Weird. I'll just have to get in touch with a clerk next week.


----------



## Haggis (14 Mar 2008)

Brihard said:
			
		

> It's all one deposit- 'Canada Pay', which I believe is just class C. My class A and B always showed up in my bank under my service number. RPSR and the reg force pay system (CCPS?) should generate different deposits.
> 
> My taxes aren't filed yet. I'm still waiting on my RPSR generated T4 and another slip from my bank. They may have finalized my claim, which could account for rather a lot, bu I don't think so...
> 
> Whatever. Weird. I'll just have to get in touch with a clerk next week.



Just don't spend it until you know it's really yours.


----------



## brihard (14 Mar 2008)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Just don't spend it until you know it's really yours.



Heh, no kidding. I've heard some pretty amazing stories come out of such pay errors.

I probably should look at any EOTech retailers for the next couple of weeks.


----------



## jollyjacktar (10 Jun 2008)

One of the union collectives in the Dkyd here in Halifax have apparently been given around a 22% pay raise going back 16 months.  From what we have been told by one of the Maties it works out to approx $17K gross, net to $11K on their mid July area pay packet.  Not sure how many members are part of this package deal, but I know there were some huge disparity between some of the shops.  

If I understand it correctly, the main group of PSAC personnel are still going through negotiations, this should have some bearing on their talks.  Maybe we might get something decent filtered down to us in time when the dust settles.


----------



## geo (10 Jun 2008)

Umm... the expression "don't hold your breath" comes to mind


----------



## dapaterson (10 Jun 2008)

We've received our 07/08 increase; any increase will be for 08/09, retro to 01 April 2008.  The group getting retro may be seeing a reclassification of their positions and receiving retro pay for that; I've heard murmurs that such a thing may be in the works for certain skilled trades groups.

Again, don't be spending any pay increase before it arrives...


----------



## jollyjacktar (11 Jun 2008)

Of course not, never spend anything before it comes if it ever does.  However, prior to this coming up locally our pay personnel on ship said that it was an adjustment only and the final tally was not settled.


----------



## CountDC (11 Jun 2008)

And with current negotiations I wouldn't count on anything for a long time - there is a big gap(grand canyon comes to mind) between the union and TB right now. Last time I saw it this bad a strike followed. Union team requested 4.5% over 3 years, TB offered 1.5% 2 years and 1.2% next 2 years.  TB didn't offer or agree to anything else the union requested.


----------



## armyvern (11 Jun 2008)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Of course not, never spend anything before it comes if it ever does.  However, prior to this coming up locally our pay personnel on ship said that it was an adjustment only and the final tally was not settled.



And that - is exactly it.

Way earlier in this thread it was pointed out that the CANFORGEN was reffered to for a "pay adjustment" to adjust to inflation.

There was a previous CANFORGEN that stated that "Pay Raises" would be based upon table settlements and that we would not see that raise until the tables had all settled. They still haven't all settled.


----------



## BinRat55 (11 Jun 2008)

Thank you Vern.


----------



## CountDC (12 Jun 2008)

CANFORGEN 184/07 CMP 079/07 031547Z DEC 07
1 APRIL 2007 - REGULAR FORCE - PAY RATES
UNCLASSIFIED


REF: CANFORGEN 175/07 CDS 041/07 281405Z NOV 07 
BILINGUAL MESSAGE / MESSAGE BILINGUE 



AS ANNOUNCED AT REF, THERE WILL BE A 2.0 PERCENT ECONOMIC ADJUSTMENT FOR GENERAL SERVICE OFFICERS (GSO) AND PILOTS (LCOL AND BELOW), MEDICAL AND DENTAL OFFICERS (LT AND BELOW), AND NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS (NCM). THIS PAY RAISE IS EFFECTIVE 1 APRIL 2007.


----------



## PMedMoe (12 Jun 2008)

So they call it an "economic adjustment" in the first sentence, and a "pay raise" in the second sentence.

Make up my mind!!


----------



## geo (12 Jun 2008)

ECONOMIC ADJUSTMENT = C.O.L.A. (Cost of living adjustment)


----------



## PMedMoe (12 Jun 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> ECONOMIC ADJUSTMENT = C.O.L.A. (Cost of living adjustment)



Which, IMO, is *not* a pay raise.


----------



## geo (12 Jun 2008)

FWIW, you're right.... but it's the only game in town
- Non union businesses give their employees pay increases based on merit... the good ones get $$ while the others get $ or nothing.

Businesses who'se employees are unionized defer all pay increases to the result of collective bargaining.  So individuals are not rewarded for the work in their position & the only way you can move ahead is by applying for a higher pay grade - with the addidional responsibilities that come with it.

While the Military is not unionized, we work for the Feds who'se civilian employees are unionized & who'se pay increases are the result of collective bargaining.  The military's pay grades are joined at the hip with the Public service employees.

It's just one of those things that we cannot & they will not change.


----------



## CountDC (12 Jun 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Which, IMO, is *not* a pay raise.



 ;D IMO we have not received a pay raise ever as all of them are always below the increase in the cost of living.


----------



## geo (12 Jun 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> ;D IMO we have not received a pay raise ever as all of them are always below the increase in the cost of living.



That,s not true... there were a couple of years where they pay rates went up by leaps and bounds BUT, you have to go back a heck of a long way
like around 1991 & 1999.


----------



## CountDC (12 Jun 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> While the Military is not unionized, we work for the Feds who'se civilian employees are unionized & who'se pay increases are the result of collective bargaining.  The military's pay grades are joined at the hip with the Public service employees.
> 
> It's just one of those things that we cannot & they will not change.



You say this like it is a negative thing. If our pay was not tied to the PS then the TB could give us whatever they felt like and TB does not like to give up its money. If they are going to offer a union 1.5% what do you think they would throw our way if they could get away with it.


----------



## geo (12 Jun 2008)

Not saying anything of the kind.... I just made a statement  of fact.

Sometimes it's a bit of a problem (like last year) when we had to wait close to 12 months - cause PSAC contracts were being negociated.


----------



## CountDC (12 Jun 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> That,s not true... there were a couple of years where they pay rates went up by leaps and bounds BUT, you have to go back a heck of a long way
> like around 1991 & 1999.



1999 had only one pay increase -                                                                      the rest were adjustments to bring us back in line with the PS pay rates as over the years we had fallen behind by small percentages that were not worth anything at the time but added up came to something worthwhile. They still didn't make up for the years of 0 increase so overall we were still behind the increase in cost of living.


----------



## X-mo-1979 (12 Jun 2008)

We will never be happy peroid.

I have a SUV,a big bayliner boat,kayak's,a roof over my head,vacation plans...what more does one need?

Oh yeah and a tour that will allow me to be debt free.

If your after money this isnt the place.Hence why upon return from tour I hope to move out east and be a civi again.Without a morgage payment or rent a minimum wage job will be equal to what I make now anyway...

...and a few smart investments are paying off as well 8)


----------



## CountDC (12 Jun 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Not saying anything of the kind.... I just made a statement  of fact.
> 
> Sometimes it's a bit of a problem (like last year) when we had to wait close to 12 months - cause PSAC contracts were being negociated.



Wouldn't have to wait if the Government teams would stop messing around so much.  Ask them why everytime they have to negotiate things that PSAC were already given in prior contracts that they know are not going to change instead of just negotiating new items. The contract they are working on now will probable be another 3 year deal with 1 year already gone by(2007), the second quickly going by (2008) leaving the third(2009) for them to do it all again. Of course come 2010 they will still have no agreement and go through the whole process again. Mind you if you are a negotiator for either side it's a great way to keep employed - drag it out.


----------



## CountDC (12 Jun 2008)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> We will never be happy peroid.
> 
> I have a SUV,a big bayliner boat,kayak's,a roof over my head,vacation plans...what more does one need?
> 
> ...


If you are after money this seems to be the place to be.  Most mbrs of the military could not make this much on civvie street. What more does one need .... let me think all of a fraction of a second - I trade everything you listed for a wife and 4 kids and the means to support them.


----------



## geo (12 Jun 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> If you are after money this seems to be the place to be.  Most mbrs of the military could not make this much on civvie street. What more does one need .... let me think all of a fraction of a second - I trade everything you listed for a wife and 4 kids and the means to support them.



There are certain things about a civy job that are very frustrating and unappealing.
There are aspects about the Military that are good.....

Bin there, done that... and lookie where I am (still)


----------



## PMedMoe (12 Jun 2008)

I wasn't complaining about what I'm paid, I was complaining about wording in a CANFORGEN!  

Personally, I think I get paid quite well for what I do.


----------



## X-mo-1979 (12 Jun 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Most mbrs of the military could not make this much on civies street.



Why do people try and say this?Obviously you are either trying to convince yourself of that,or been in that long you don't realise that even without an education period there is plenty of money to be made.

I could easily surpass 60,000 a year on civi street.


----------



## blacktriangle (12 Jun 2008)

It's true, you could make almost that much to apprentice in a trade out west.

People that sign up to the army soley for financial reasons ought to check out other better paying, lower risk occupations.


----------



## Teeps74 (12 Jun 2008)

Me, I would work for peanuts, a song and a roof over my head... But if you try to touch my leave, I am gonna be surfing workopolis.ca.

I could easily get on civi street and make at least equal pay. But no one on civi street is going to match our benifits. At least not without several years of seniority.

I have friends on civi street who are jealous of my leave package (well, except the teachers)... I could not imagine a leave package that has less then 24 days to it per annum.


----------



## CountDC (12 Jun 2008)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Why do people try and say this?Obviously you are either trying to convince yourself of that,or been in that long you don't realise that even without an education period there is plenty of money to be made.
> 
> I could easily surpass 60,000 a year on civi street.



Or I have done the comparison, shopped the civvie world along with other mbrs I know and found that it is true. Not every trade has a high paying civvie equivalent outside the government and very few will offer the same benefits. Not a lot of call for Infantry, Artillery, Armoured on the outside along with lots of other trades. Some have similar jobs on the outside but again do not pay the same with the same package. Try finding a job that pays 60k a year, has med and dental coverage for you and your family, 25 days of annual plus sick/compassionate/short leave.  Don't see too many jobs that fit that bill and if you do odds are there is stiff competition for it. Most jobs I see advertised are paying will below what we make or have high requirements in regards to training and experience.


----------



## X-mo-1979 (12 Jun 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Or I have done the comparison, shopped the civvie world along with other mbrs I know and found that it is true. Not every trade has a high paying civvie equivalent outside the government and very few will offer the same benefits. Not a lot of call for Infantry, Artillery, Armoured on the outside along with lots of other trades. Some have similar jobs on the outside but again do not pay the same with the same package. Try finding a job that pays 60k a year, has med and dental coverage for you and your family, 25 days of annual plus sick/compassionate/short leave.  Don't see too many jobs that fit that bill and if you do odds are there is stiff competition for it. Most jobs I see advertised are paying will below what we make or have high requirements in regards to training and experience.



Funny.
Being one of those fine combat arms trades,I am one of 3 out of 38 left in the army that I joined with.Funny thing is they all have huge houses out west,big SUV's in the driveway,and are saving money to buy a house out east.Funny thing is besides high school all they have is their battle school.
One in particular who I visited at the end of maple Guardian (my job hunt,paid for by the CF  ;D) was making over 200,000 grand a year.

If my medical treatment you mean our UMS.....
Dental.... I can't get braces without going on freakin TCAT :
If your looking for 25 days off a year and to make great cash head west.It's called "break-up"IIRC.Good 2 months off where the rig's cannot drive around.

I can only say one of the 12 or so I stay in contact with faired out worse.He was lazy in the army as well.

The money to be had in skilled trades alone.Take two years and go to school.

There are plenty of great options out there,the army (and people like yourself) seem to breed the rumours like this.Some weird old school form of retention I guess.

If you couldnt find work paying better than a Mcpl/MS (I am as well) with enough money to make up for the benifits...you must have been trying to live the dream on the east coast or something.


----------



## armyvern (12 Jun 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I wasn't complaining about what I'm paid, I was complaining about wording in a CANFORGEN!
> 
> Personally, I think I get paid quite well for what I do.



Exactly. Which is why there are earlier CANFORGENs as precedent:



> EFFECTIVE 1 APR 04
> 
> (1) AN ECONOMIC ADJUSTMENT OF 2.25 PERCENT AND
> 
> ...



An economic adjustment is COLA.
A comparabilty adjustment is a different thing. 

That was the 2004 CANFORGEN, then in 2006 -- we had this thread [Pay Raise for FY 2006] where the wording was:



> CANFORGEN 155/06 CMP 067 241633Z OCT 06
> FY 05/06 AND 06/07 CF PAY INCREASES
> UNCLASSIFIED



It again differentiates between "economic adjustment" (COLA) and "adjustment to the special military differential" (benchmark to Public Svc employees) if applicable to the rank.

That all brings us to FY07/08 (ie the raises/adjustments for the FY ending 31 Mar 2008): CANFORGEN 102/07 (which I can not find copied into a thread on-site/and I do NOT have DIN access right now either, so can not pull up to post) ... I am quite sure, specificly noted that bit about the PS still bargaining and that raises to align with their pay would _*not*_ occur until all tables had negotiated Table settlements. That has still not occured to date.

That adjustment (for Military factor benchmark) based upon the PS negotiations & tables has usually been listed seperately (as shown above) in CANFORGENs.

Then CANFORGEN 175/07 Nov 07 was released noting only the "economic adjustment". It mentions nothing of the Military Factor Adjustment that was mentionned in Jun 07 regarding FY07/08 pay with CANFORGEN 102/07 (the one that we would receive when all tables had settled and it's amount for us determined).

Perhaps they've lumped it all into one "adjustment" terminology this time around and that 2% is all we'll see -- but I'll choose to ever be the optomist. There's still tables out there negotiating from last year ... but I certainly won't be spending what may never come.  :-\

They really DO need to sort out their terminolgy and begin utilizing a common standard of wording with these releases. COLA(djustment) does not equal "raise" in line with PS counterparts and mil factor. If, by some chance, the 175/07 CANFORGEN has included both of these items -- I'll agree with you, it's worded very wrong based on precedent Pay CANFORGENs from previous years which kept them seperately listed; especially so given the fact that another FY07/08 Pay CANFORGEN (102/07) made specific note of waiting for all tables to settle (still not done) before releasing that mil factor amount.

So, the question really is: is that 2% inclusive of both the COLA *and* the mil factor from those PS table settlements which had occured prior to the latest message release despite the prior direction that *all* tables would have to settle prior to releasing the mil factor? Or not?

The confused wording of CANFORGEN 175/07 doesn't make it clear. And, the prior precedents of listing the COLA & Mil Factor seperately would tend to lead one to think something is still coming once ALL those tables have settled as was stated as what would occur in earlier CANFORGEN 102/07.


----------



## jollyjacktar (12 Jun 2008)

Here you go Vern....


UNCLAS CANFORGEN 102/07 CMP 041/07
SIC WBS
BILINGUAL MESSAGE/MESSAGE BILINGUE
SUBJ: STATUS OF PAY AND ENVIRONMENTAL ALLOWANCE INCREASES - 
EFFECTIVE 1 APR 07 - GENERAL SERVICE OFFICERS (GSO) AND PILOTS, LCOL 
AND BELOW, MEDICAL AND DENTAL (MED/DENT) OFFICER LTS AND 2LTS, AND 
NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS (NCM)
1.  THE PURPOSE OF THIS MSG IS TO PROVIDE YOU WITH AN UPDATE ON THE 
PRESENT SITUATION REGARDING FISCAL YEAR (FY) 07/08 PAY AND 
ENVIRONMENTAL ALLOWANCE INCREASES
2.  THE CF WILL NOT BE IN A POSITION TO DELIVER FY 07/08 PAY AND 
ENVIRONMENTAL ALLOWANCE INCREASES IN THE IMMEDIATE FUTURE FOR 
REASONS OUTLINED BELOW.  ONCE INCREASES ARE APPROVED, THEY WILL BE 
RETROACTIVE TO 1 APR 07
3.  CF PAY AND ALLOWANCE INCREASE PERCENTAGES FOR GSOS AND PILOTS, 
LCOL AND BELOW, MED/DENT OFFICERS IN THE RANK OF LT AND 2LT, AND 



PAGE 2 RCCLHAV6036 UNCLAS 
NCMS ARE BASED ON A COMPARABILITY MODEL THAT MEASURES THE EFFECT OF 
PUBLIC SERVICE (PS) SALARY IMPROVEMENTS FOR THOSE GROUPS BENCHMARKED 
TO MILITARY OCCUPATIONS.  BASED ON THESE PS SALARY IMPROVEMENTS, THE 
CF PAY MODEL IS ADJUSTED ACCORDINGLY TO MAINTAIN THE REQUIRED PAY 
RELATIVITY
4.  OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS, MOST COLLECTIVE AGREEMENTS IN THE PS 
HAVE BEEN IN EFFECT MAKING THE DETERMINATION OF THE VALUE OF THE 
COMPARATOR GROUP FOR BENCHMARKING TO CF OCCUPATIONS A ROUTINE 
MATTER.  HOWEVER, GIVEN THAT THE MAJORITY OF COLLECTIVE AGREEMENTS 
FOR THE PS GROUPS BENCHMARKED TO THE CF ARE DUE TO EXPIRE IN THE 
COMING MONTHS, THERE WILL BE LITTLE OR NO PUBLIC SERVICE 
COMPENSATION DATA AVAILABLE UPON WHICH TO DEVELOP A RATIONAL AND 
SUPPORTABLE CF PAY RAISE PROPOSAL FOR TREASURY BOARD CONSIDERATION.  
WE WILL CONTINUE TO MONITOR THIS SITUATION CLOSELY AND EXPECT TO BE 
IN A POSITION TO PROVIDE AN UPDATE ON COLLECTIVE BARGAINING RESULTS 
IN THE PUBLIC SERVICE IN THE SEP-OCT 07 TIMEFRAME
5.  YOUR ON-GOING PATIENCE IS THIS REGARD IS APPRECIATED
END OF ENGLISH TEXT


----------



## CountDC (13 Jun 2008)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Funny.
> Being one of those fine combat arms trades,I am one of 3 out of 38 left in the army that I joined with.Funny thing is they all have huge houses out west,big SUV's in the driveway,and are saving money to buy a house out east.Funny thing is besides high school all they have is their battle school.
> One in particular who I visited at the end of maple Guardian (my job hunt,paid for by the CF  ;D) was making over 200,000 grand a year.
> 
> ...


----------



## oozieman (24 Jun 2008)

Another 2% coming our way effective April 08. Check out the latest CANFORGEN.


----------



## armyvern (24 Jun 2008)

oozieman said:
			
		

> Another 2% coming our way effective April 08. Check out the latest CANFORGEN.



   ... Oh - a raise!!

CANFORGEN 114/08 CMP 044/08



> CANFORGEN 114/08 CMP 044/08 231403Z JUN 08
> REG AND RES FORCE - PAY AND ENVIRONMENTAL ALLOWANCE INCREASE
> UNCLASSIFIED
> 
> ...


----------



## PMedMoe (24 Jun 2008)

Ought to go nicely with all my back pay.  Maybe I should go buy a lottery ticket..... ;D

Check my profile for more info!


----------



## CountDC (24 Jun 2008)

gee - that will go great with the cost of living only going up an estimated 2.23% from last year (May 2007 to May 2008) according to Bank of Canada.


----------



## aesop081 (24 Jun 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> gee - that will go great with the cost of living only going up an estimated 2.23% from last year (May 2007 to May 2008) according to Bank of Canada.



Well then, can i please have your 2% ?

My 2% plus your 2% will put me above the bank of Canada's estimate just fine.


----------



## jollyjacktar (24 Jun 2008)

While I am pleased to see more in my pay packet, this was pointed out by one of the PO2.  The 2.2 percent adjustment previously mentioned was back to Apr/07.  That according to the message was to tide us over until the raise came in.  Well it has, but only to Apr 08.  There seems to be a missing year there.  Seems like a fast one is being pulled.


----------



## Springroll (24 Jun 2008)

The PO2 here was talking about it yesterday, but I never got a chance to look up the CANFORGEN til this morning.
Nice thing to wake up to at work...lol
I'm happy we are getting a 2% pay raise. 
Its damn expensive raising kids on your own and every little bit that comes in makes it a little easier.


----------



## garb811 (24 Jun 2008)

For me, I'd be happy if a raise/economic adjustment/cost of living increase or whatever else they want to call it this time around actually started landing in my bank account shortly after it was announced and not 4-6-8 months down the road.  You'd think they were still doing our pay with an abacus and sending us pay statements on papyrus for the length of time it takes.


----------



## CountDC (24 Jun 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Well then, can i please have your 2% ?
> 
> My 2% plus your 2% will put me above the bank of Canada's estimate just fine.



That would be nice - 4% would give you an actual raise for once instead of all these increases that stay below the cost of living increase. Unfortunately my family and the government has already claimed it - a quick estimate makes it about $100 per month, government share is about 36% leaving $64 per month $32 per pay. 

Now before anyone goes off half cocked about if you don't like the pay etc etc etc etc.  I do believe we are paid a decent rate - as I said earlier most can not find the same job on civvy street with the same pay and benefits. Out there I would be lucky to make above minimum wage.  What I don't like is that we keep getting increases instead of a real raise that is  "CF PERSONNEL RECEIVE FAIR AND EQUITABLE COMPENSATION THAT RECOGNIZES THE VALUE OF THE IMPORTANT WORK THEY PERFORM IN THE SERVICE OF CANADA" Guess this means the work I am doing today is of less value than last year or even 20 years ago.


----------



## Sub_Guy (24 Jun 2008)

The new raise covers my anti-reflective coating for my FREE eye glasses!   DH is styling!   8)  Could this day get any better?  

No that is not the sarcasm speaking.


----------



## geo (25 Jun 2008)

Heh,,, the CDS' decision to announce the 2% does not preclude another adjustment ONCE the PS contract negociations are complete.  I can only thank the CDS for biting the bullet and coming up with some cash to tide us away until PS negs are done.

Why the sarcasm ???


----------



## armyvern (25 Jun 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Heh,,, the CDS' decision to announce the 2% does not preclude another adjustment ONCE the PS contract negociations are complete.  I can only thank the CDS for biting the bullet and coming up with some cash to tide us away until PS negs are done.
> 
> Why the sarcasm ???



I'm trying to figure out the same thing seeing as how they just got a COLA of 2% all backdated on 01 Apr.

Now they get a raise ... and yet they still bitch.

Unbelieveable.


----------



## Occam (25 Jun 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Heh,,, the CDS' decision to announce the 2% does not preclude another adjustment ONCE the PS contract negociations are complete.  I can only thank the CDS for biting the bullet and coming up with some cash to tide us away until PS negs are done.
> 
> Why the sarcasm ???



Since the 2% "tide us over" pay increase is the same as what was awarded last year, and there was (supposedly) to be a further adjustment pending PS negotiations (which are still ongoing), I trust that the adjustment you refer to above will be retroactive to 1 Apr *07*.


----------



## vonGarvin (25 Jun 2008)

I don't care about the details, other than I end up with more.  I agree with Springroll: every bit counts.  I have a "traditional" nuclear family: stay at home mom, 2.1 kids and 1.8 dogs, etc.  Yes, my choice, but since they're giving me more, I'll just smile and say "thank you".


----------



## CountDC (25 Jun 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I'm trying to figure out the same thing seeing as how they just got a COLA of 2% all backdated on 01 Apr.
> 
> Now they get a raise ... and yet they still *****.
> 
> Unbelieveable.



maybe because that COLA, raise, increase or whatever you want to call it is always lower than the increase in the cost of living.  At least once in a while they could match it.


----------



## armyvern (25 Jun 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> maybe because that COLA, raise, increase or whatever you want to call it is always lower than the increase in the cost of living.  At least once in a while they could match it.



I suppose then, that when they do that -- you'll have them take away the PLPD??  (Oh, I see you're in Ottawa, lost yours already <-- some of us have never gotten it though).
Holy crap people -- get a grip on reality. You got a raise ... more than the average Canadian did. Be thankful for that.


----------



## Springroll (25 Jun 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> maybe because that COLA, raise, increase or whatever you want to call it is always lower than the increase in the cost of living.  At least once in a while they could match it.



Think of it this way:

Is there another job out in civvie land, similar to what you are currently doing, where you can be making $60k after just a few years working there?? 

I highly doubt it, unless your into computers...

Be grateful for what you are getting. Good pay, benefits, PLD, sea pay etc etc...very, VERY few jobs out in civvie land offer perks like what we receive.

2% for me adds up to one of my kids being able to take on an extracurricular activity or a family dinner out together at a decent restaurant (Not McD's..lol).


----------



## CountDC (25 Jun 2008)

Springroll said:
			
		

> Think of it this way:
> 
> Is there another job out in civvie land, similar to what you are currently doing, where you can be making $60k after just a few years working there??
> 
> ...



I have already stated prior that we get a good wage and that outside the government my trade becomes about $20k if lucky - nor have I complained about the rate of pay. My point has been, as already stated, that I would like to see them match the increase in cost of living once in awhile to show how much they value our work and keep our spending dollar at par.

Glad this means your kid will be able to take on an extracurricular or you can take them out to dinner - I on the other hand can not say the same unless it is McD's which costs $40. Most extra activities are over $200 so this doesn't even cover half and with the price of everything sky rocketing this is a drop in the bucket. I cycle to work to save money, keep shoppng trips to a minimum (unfortunately everything is so far away we have no choice but to drive), even given up the daily timmies to ensure we can maintain the life we value more (although I do miss the timmies!!).


----------



## Springroll (25 Jun 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> I have already stated prior that we get a good wage and that outside the government my trade becomes about $20k if lucky - nor have I complained about the rate of pay. My point has been, as already stated, that I would like to see them match the increase in cost of living once in awhile to show how much they value our work and keep our spending dollar at par.



Ah, i see now. To an extent I agree with. 2% is better then 0% though....



			
				CountDC said:
			
		

> Glad this means your kid will be able to take on an extracurricular or you can take them out to dinner - I on the other hand can not say the same unless it is McD's which costs $40. Most extra activities are over $200 so this doesn't even cover half and with the price of everything sky rocketing this is a drop in the bucket. I cycle to work to save money, keep shoppng trips to a minimum (unfortunately everything is so far away we have no choice but to drive), even given up the daily timmies to ensure we can maintain the life we value more (although I do miss the timmies!!).



An McD's night for myself and my 3 kids(13, 10 and 7) costs about $24 and that is only if my oldest super sizes his angus burger combo. That McD's offers a 10% military discount as well. 

Also see if there are some programs in your area that help to reduce the costs involved when enrolling your kids in extracurricular activities. Thats what i did and it has saved me a ton of money! Enough so that I am still able to get my mornng coffee and drink it as I drive in to work!!


----------



## CountDC (25 Jun 2008)

Springroll said:
			
		

> Ah, i see now. To an extent I agree with. 2% is better then 0% though....
> 
> An McD's night for myself and my 3 kids(13, 10 and 7) costs about $24 and that is only if my oldest super sizes his angus burger combo. That McD's offers a 10% military discount as well.
> 
> Also see if there are some programs in your area that help to reduce the costs involved when enrolling your kids in extracurricular activities. Thats what i did and it has saved me a ton of money! Enough so that I am still able to get my mornng coffee and drink it as I drive in to work!!


2% is better than nothing and is a nice farewell gift by the best CDS (my opinion) in the last 23 years. I am also sure that if HE could have it would be more. Unfortunately TB controls the purse strings and they hold them very tight.

McD's for me is 2 adults and 4 kids (14, 11, 3 and 1) and cost over $40 for regular meals for 3 and kids meals for the young 2 - the youngest gets the scraps from the adults.  I did keep it under $30 by getting everyone a kids meal once but it wasn't filling so cost me more later for fillings. Here there is no military discount - in fact when I first came here I asked about it and was laughed at by the staff and everyone else around me.  Seems the military is not as appreciated everywhere. As for programs to reduce cost - the $200 is the reduced cost programs I have found that they would be interested in.  Luckily the 14 year old decided cadets were interesting and the band would be fun so he cost almost nothing to take care of for his extra.


----------



## PMedMoe (25 Jun 2008)

Not sure if it was a glitch or something, but while at work today I noticed this particular CANFORGEN was no longer on the list.  Can anyone verify this?


----------



## dangerboy (25 Jun 2008)

Just looked it is there.


----------



## PMedMoe (25 Jun 2008)

Okay, maybe the page was being changed at the time.  Thanks!

Edit to add:  I am now at work and see why I thought it was gone.  Here is how they are listed:

Date           Number    Subject                                                                                                   
24 JUN 08   118/08     honours and awards                                                                                 
17 JUN 08   117/08     tax relief and impact on income tax slips and military pay                              
19 JUN 08   116/08     im gp key appointments for 2008                                                               
23 JUN 08   115/08     amendments to compensation for disability and death gratuity - res f           
23 JUN 08   114/08     reg and res force - pay and environmental allowance increase                     

So, obviously, I was looking at the dates and not the subject.  D'oh!!!


----------



## CountDC (26 Jun 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I suppose then, that when they do that -- you'll have them take away the PLPD??  (Oh, I see you're in Ottawa, lost yours already <-- some of us have never gotten it though).
> Holy crap people -- get a grip on reality. You got a raise ... more than the average Canadian did. Be thankful for that.



 > but I am not an average Canadian - I am a member of the Military that has hung on through the years of downsize, budget cuts, no increases period, food banks (was that really needed??), help everyone in dire need but go away when no one needs you, been spit on because I wore the uniform, been told not to wear my uniform back and forth to work as some people may find it offensive and react to it, etc etc etc (I am sure others can come up with some I missed) so feel I have the right to express my opinion ie free speech which is that I feel the government should recognize what we and our families do and actually give us a raise and not just an increase that is below the increase in cost of living. The $$ amount in my case is pretty mute as usually what I end up taking home in net pay is offset by a reduction in CTB that leaves my family with about the same amount of spending dollars. 

Reality is the governments and people of Canada want us to be there when they want us but do not want to spend the money to have us unless there is an immediate crisis. Cold war ending - reduce the military - terrorism/war - increase the military.


----------



## geo (26 Jun 2008)

CountDC....

Ummm... do you think you're the only one who'se gone thru the whole shebang ?
I was doing my GMT in 1970 when the October crisis kicked in.... Loads of fun & games


----------



## Eye In The Sky (26 Jun 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> CountDC....
> 
> Ummm... do you think you're the only one who'se gone thru the whole shebang ?
> I was doing my GMT in 1970 when the October crisis kicked in.... Loads of fun & games



I was busy being born around the same time.  Geo, do you think you'll be around for that 3rd clasp on your CD?  (around as in still lacing the boots up...)


----------



## CountDC (27 Jun 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> CountDC....
> 
> Ummm... do you think you're the only one who'se gone thru the whole shebang ?
> I was doing my GMT in 1970 when the October crisis kicked in.... Loads of fun & games



No I don't - as I said I am sure others can come up with some I missed. Perhaps you should read things for what is said instead of what is not said there.


----------



## PO2FinClk (27 Jun 2008)

And here I was thinking this thread was directly relevant to CF Pay rather then rants of perceived inequities and self-ownership.


----------



## geo (27 Jun 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I was busy being born around the same time.  Geo, do you think you'll be around for that 3rd clasp on your CD?  (around as in still lacing the boots up...)


Still have money in the meter..... will have to see if it gets me to the end of the road


----------



## geo (27 Jun 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> No I don't - as I said I am sure others can come up with some I missed. Perhaps you should read things for what is said instead of what is not said there.


Thought I had read & paid attention to all that was written.... If I missed something - my regrets.


----------



## PMedMoe (23 Jul 2008)

So now we have a CANFORGEN stating our "pay increase" as stated at CANFORGEN 114/08 CMP 044/08 231403Z JUN 08



> IN KEEPING WITH THIS PHILOSOPHY, I AM PLEASED TO ANNOUNCE A 2.0 PERCENT *PAY INCREASE* FOR ALL NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS, GENERAL SERVICE OFFICERS (LCOL AND BELOW), PILOTS (LCOL AND BELOW), AND MEDICAL AND DENTAL OFFICERS (LT AND 2LT).



is actually an "Economic Adjustment":

CANFORGEN 136/08 CMP 054/08 221440Z JUL 08
1 APRIL 2008 - REGULAR FORCE - PAY RATES



> REF: CANFORGEN 114/08 CMP 044/08 231403Z JUN 08
> 
> A 2.0 PERCENT *ECONOMIC ADJUSTMENT* FOR GENERAL SERVICE OFFICERS (GSO) AND PILOTS (LCOL AND BELOW), MEDICAL AND DENTAL OFFICERS (LT AND 2LT), AND NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS (NCM) WAS *ANNOUNCED AT REF*, EFFECTIVE 1 APR 08



I wish they would get their wording straight.  But I suppose an adjustment is an increase.  :


----------



## CountDC (23 Jul 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I wish they would get their wording straight.  But I suppose an adjustment is an increase.  :



only if it is an upward adjustment   ;D


----------



## aesop081 (23 Jul 2008)

$10  more on my base pay and $6 on my aircrew allowance.........humm.......thanks .......i think  ;D


----------



## CountDC (23 Jul 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> $10  more on my base pay and $6 on my aircrew allowance.........humm.......thanks .......i think  ;D



is that all??? Now I feel better - quick estimate is that I (correction HFD9) will get about $25 per pay. Every 2 months we can fill the gas tank!!


----------



## aesop081 (23 Jul 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> is that all??? Now I feel better - quick estimate is that I (correction HFD9) will get about $25 per pay. Every 2 months we can fill the gas tank!!



I went from $5484 to $5494 according to the April 08 pay scale posted on the DCBA site. Aircrew allowance went from $291 to $297 for me according the the CANFORGEN that was released along with the one for the non-raise adjustment.


----------



## Haggis (23 Jul 2008)

Here's a publicly accesible DPPD web site with the pay rates.


----------



## CountDC (23 Jul 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I went from $5484 to $5494 according to the April 08 pay scale posted on the DCBA site. Aircrew allowance went from $291 to $297 for me according the the CANFORGEN that was released along with the one for the non-raise adjustment.



are you sure that isn't $5594 that you went to? This would work out to the 2% we are getting making it $100 before deductions, about $60 per month after (depending on where you are and the tax rate there) so $30 per pay.


----------



## aesop081 (23 Jul 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> are you sure that isn't $5594 that you went to? This would work out to the 2% we are getting making it $100 before deductions, about $60 per month after (depending on where you are and the tax rate there) so $30 per pay.



You are correct....$5594 now.

Thats $67 128 a year in base pay plus $3564 in aircrew allowance.........$70 692

 ;D


----------



## CountDC (23 Jul 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> You are correct....$5594 now.
> 
> Thats $67 128 a year in base pay plus $3564 in aircrew allowance.........$70 692
> 
> ;D


  now I need a new happy thought - hmmm - I know - I'm not a Pte(1) at 2585 !!!! ;D


----------



## Jorkapp (23 Jul 2008)

> I know - I'm not a Pte(1) at 2585 !!!!



Nor are you an OCdt at 1443...

Well, for that matter, neither am I. I'm an OCdt at 1507


----------



## CountDC (23 Jul 2008)

AEC Kapp said:
			
		

> Nor are you an OCdt at 1443...
> 
> Well, for that matter, neither am I. I'm an OCdt at 1507



woohoo!!! - now I am feeling even better than before!!!! If HFD9 didn't have all my $$$ already I would go have a drink to celebrate!! 

wait - Water Fountain here I come!!


----------



## TheCheez (23 Jul 2008)

Anyone know the inside track on when this might show up or are we still working with the ambiguous "FALL 08" with backpay in the prev message?


----------



## CountDC (23 Jul 2008)

TheCheez said:
			
		

> Anyone know the inside track on when this might show up or are we still working with the ambiguous "FALL 08" with backpay in the prev message?



still fall 08 which usely means Nov/Dec


----------



## BinRat55 (23 Jul 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> still fall 08 which usely means Nov/Dec



December would be nice - Christmas and all - and I have a Chrisco order due then too!!  ;D


----------



## blacktriangle (23 Jul 2008)

For single, young guys that don't drink themselves into the ground...they can make a fair chunk of change even at the jr ranks.


----------



## Haggis (23 Jul 2008)

TheCheez said:
			
		

> Anyone know the inside track on when this might show up or are we still working with the ambiguous "FALL 08" with backpay in the prev message?



Well, if you want to be specific, "Fall 2008" can be any pay day between end September to mid December as Fall is usually 21 September to 21 December (give or take a day either way).


----------



## Eye In The Sky (23 Jul 2008)

Last year it was on the Oct pay run IIRC.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (20 Aug 2008)

I was taking a look at the CCPS Advisory site today and found this:

*CCPS Advisory - E03408
Advisory list 
Date: 14 Aug  
Subject: CCPS Availability  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CCPS will be unavailable from 23 August 2008 to approximately mid morning of 24 August 2008 due to the implementation of the Pay and Environmental Allowances increases.*

For our RMS Clerks on the forum, or those in the know, does this mean that the pay increase per CANFORGEN 114/08 can be expected on the Sept 08 pay run?


----------



## dapaterson (20 Aug 2008)

It means that they are atempting the update; if they are successful they will announce when the deposit will go through.  Announcing a payment, then having technical difficulties (a real problem, given the age of the codebase in the pay system) hurts credibility; the retro payment will only be announced when it's certain that it has gone through.


----------



## CountDC (20 Aug 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I was taking a look at the CCPS Advisory site today and found this:
> 
> *CCPS Advisory - E03408
> Advisory list
> ...



If everything goes right then it may be on the Mid Sep pay.  Been a clerk too long to answer that one with a firm yes.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (20 Aug 2008)

Roger thanks gents.  Its nice to know that they are making steps forward with it!


----------



## HItorMiss (20 Aug 2008)

OK quick question totaly unrelated to the pay raise....

What is the starting rate for Para Allowance? Yes I searched perhaps I didn't use the right wordage. A link will suffice as well 

Thank you


----------



## CFR FCS (20 Aug 2008)

Check it out on line at:
http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/dppd/engraph/dppd_coverpage_e.asp?sidesection=3&sidecat=30&docid=6

Looks like $243 for less than 3 years.

CFR FCS


----------



## Eye In The Sky (20 Aug 2008)

The link is here.

The .pdf is here, its on page 2.


----------



## HItorMiss (20 Aug 2008)

Thank you, all your Google FU skills are much stronger then my own.


----------



## BinRat55 (25 Aug 2008)

It was confirmed for me this morning - as of the Sept pay run, our increases are done and the retro pay is on the mid Sept pay. WooHoo, $300.00!! I think i'll buy a lawnmower!!


----------



## Eye In The Sky (25 Aug 2008)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> It was confirmed for me this morning - as of the Sept pay run, our increases are done and the retro pay is on the mid Sept pay. WooHoo, $300.00!! I think i'll buy a lawnmower!!



Who confirmed it and how did you find out how much...curious as the mid-Sep pay statement isn't out...did you see it on your CCPS or something?


----------



## BinRat55 (25 Aug 2008)

I gotta pay guy!!  ;D Very resourceful lad too!!


----------



## geo (25 Aug 2008)

Friendly suggestion Binrat.... Don't spend it before you see it on your (online) pay stub.


----------



## BinRat55 (25 Aug 2008)

Thanks GEO, I won't!! I've been around way too long to be that foolish - I usually wait till it comes out of the bank machine!!!


----------



## Armymedic (30 Aug 2008)

Is this yr's annual increase coming in soon? I heard Sept...but never seen any messages.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (30 Aug 2008)

Wait for it.......


----------



## Armymedic (30 Aug 2008)

duh, what do you think I have been doing?


----------



## SupersonicMax (30 Aug 2008)

Apparently it will be MID SEP.  It's in the system according to our clerks!!


----------



## Nfld Sapper (30 Aug 2008)

Prairie Dog said:
			
		

> duh, what do you think I have been doing?



LOL that's what I meant, the message should be out shortly...... say after Labour Day?  ;D


----------



## Eye In The Sky (30 Aug 2008)

According to the message on the CCPS Advisory page, the pay/environmental allowance increases were input successfully and will be on the mid-Sep pay.  I saw the msg with my own eyes  ;D


----------



## Armymedic (30 Aug 2008)

Ok, what is this "CCPS advisory page"? Can the rest of us see it?


----------



## Nfld Sapper (30 Aug 2008)

Prairie Dog said:
			
		

> Ok, what is this "CCPS advisory page"? Can the rest of us see it?



CCPS

The Central Computation Pay System (CCPS) delivers pay services to members of the Regular Force and members of the Reserve Force on Class C Reserve Service. 

Retrieved from "http://www.army.ca/wiki/index.php/CCPS"


----------



## Eye In The Sky (30 Aug 2008)

Prairie Dog said:
			
		

> Ok, what is this "CCPS advisory page"? Can the rest of us see it?



CCPS is the pay system for all Reg Force mbrs.  Anyone that has access to the DIN/INtraNet/whatever you want to call it, can see the site.  I don't have the address here but I can post it from work when I am there next.


----------



## Armymedic (30 Aug 2008)

ok, is it tied to DCPB site?


----------



## The_Falcon (30 Aug 2008)

My unit fin clk told me, that the back pay will be on our (reserve) mid sept pay as well.  Help me pay for the crossfit cert


----------



## Eye In The Sky (31 Aug 2008)

Prairie Dog said:
			
		

> ok, is it tied to DCPB site?



I don't remember to be honest.  A while back, I was troubleshooting the CCPS app for a Pay Clerk and I found it while looking up info on the CCPS Regional Helpdesks.  I added it to my Fav's at the shop.


----------



## dapaterson (31 Aug 2008)

It's part of the ADM(Fin CS) DIN site - look for "Mil Pay" or "Accounts payable" - there's a set of links on the left hand side of the page for CCPS, RPSR, ClaimsX, Department Travel, and a few others.

Information that's mostly of use for clerks, but may be of interest to others as well - but remember, the CCPS (national) helpdesk is not for everyone to call and complain to.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (31 Aug 2008)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> but remember, the CCPS (national) helpdesk is not for everyone to call and complain to.



IIRC, it quite clearly states on the site that in pretty clear wording.  

Now, my reason for calling is...my duties include supporting the clerks at the our CSOR in all their IT/IS requirements.  Even I didn't call the Regional CCPS helpdesk, because I don't speak Clerkanese.


----------



## CountDC (4 Sep 2008)

Will folks - just talked to a fellow clerk that is working in the pay office and things did not go great for some people.  Not everyone is receiving the pay increase on the mid month pay. Don't know why it happened but it did - people's pay increases were not picked up for the mid month and instead will be on the end month pay.

Hope you all heeded the old advice - don't spend it until you have it.


----------



## HItorMiss (4 Sep 2008)

Because I am a dumb grunt who math skills end at counting to 27 and then doing a mag change....

Cpl 4 what will be the back pay?  I bet I missed it when I perused the thread though didn't I.....


----------



## CountDC (4 Sep 2008)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> Because I am a dumb grunt who math skills end at counting to 27 and then doing a mag change....
> 
> Cpl 4 what will be the back pay?  I bet I missed it when I perused the thread though didn't I.....



they teach you to count that high now?  In my days as a grunt we only had to count to 4, the hard part was remembering what numbers to move on. ;D

Quick rough estimate without knowing all the details of your pay is $50 per month in your pocket.


----------



## BinRat55 (4 Sep 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Quick rough estimate without knowing all the details of your pay is $50 per month in your pocket.



For 5 months... (retro to Apr 08)


----------



## Puss~in~Boots (5 Sep 2008)

Morning Folks!

  Here is the link for the CANFORGEN on the Regular Force Pay raise:
http://vcds.mil.ca/vcds-exec/pubs/canforgen/2008/136-08_e.asp

Reserve Pay Raise:
http://vcds.mil.ca/vcds-exec/pubs/canforgen/2008/137-08_e.asp

Info regarding the problem with the loading of certain ranks/raises:
http://admfincs.mil.ca/ccps/advisories/2008/e03808_e.asp?sel=ccps

Maybe you boys already have that. If so, chalk it up to ranting..

Cheers!


----------



## CountDC (5 Sep 2008)

latest on my end -

pay statements are now available on EMAA

mine reflects almost $300 in in back pay - will not receive until END SEP pay.


----------



## BinRat55 (5 Sep 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> latest on my end -
> 
> pay statements are now available on EMAA
> 
> mine reflects almost $300 in in back pay - will not receive until END SEP pay.



Mine is good to go for MID SEP pay - maybe it's just the Navy-types!! (Gotta save all the back pay till end month for the mess  :blotto: )


----------



## jc5778 (5 Sep 2008)

I'm good for mid-Sept!!


----------



## Eye In The Sky (5 Sep 2008)

7 - 10 days said:
			
		

> I'm good for mid-Sept!!



Same here.  No "Christmas Bonus" this year  :blotto:


----------



## Pea (6 Sep 2008)

Mine is on Mid Sept pay as well. $300 or so, not bad at all.


----------



## aesop081 (6 Sep 2008)

Mine is going to be in for mid-sep as well.......almost 600 bucks.....YAY !!!


----------



## kincanucks (6 Sep 2008)

Mine is in too but don't they count the first two weeks of Sept too?


----------



## x-zipperhead (6 Sep 2008)

If you look closely, you are paid your new rate of pay for Sep and then the difference between new and old rates for Apr to Aug. 

Cheers


----------



## kincanucks (6 Sep 2008)

Ahh that makes sense thanks.


----------



## BinRat55 (6 Sep 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Mine is going to be in for mid-sep as well.......almost 600 bucks.....YAY !!!



Is that BEFORE taxes? How do you get twice what I get - even wit spec pay? We are the same rank...


----------



## aesop081 (6 Sep 2008)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Is that BEFORE taxes?



Yes that is before tax....sorry





> We are the same rank...



Go look at the pay scales and see what your pay is compared to mine. It is a rather significant difference.
http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/dppd/pdf/Reg_Force_NCM_08_e.pdf


----------



## Eye In The Sky (6 Sep 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Yes that is before tax....sorry
> 
> 
> 
> Go look at the pay scales and see what your pay is compared to mine. It is a rather significant difference.



I thought part of the retro pay was for environmental allowances as well...ie aircrew allowance?


----------



## aesop081 (6 Sep 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I thought part of the retro pay was for environmental allowances as well...ie aircrew allowance?



I got that too yes.......


----------



## Nfld Sapper (6 Sep 2008)

Not bad I guess, got like $198 back after taxes and the other deductions  :-\


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (6 Sep 2008)

Better then a kick in the junk.


----------



## BinRat55 (6 Sep 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Yes that is before tax....sorry
> Go look at the pay scales and see what your pay is compared to mine. It is a rather significant difference.
> http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/dppd/pdf/Reg_Force_NCM_08_e.pdf



Yeah, I know we "non-spec trades" are rather low on the totem pole, maybe even significantly, but even though i'm not paid so well, I do realize that 20 bucks more a month in back pay STILL didn't add up to $600...



> Yes that is before tax....sorry



I accept your apology  ;D


----------



## aesop081 (6 Sep 2008)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> , I do realize that 20 bucks more a month in back pay STILL didn't add up to $600...



Well, the difference between my old rate and my new rate, before tax, was $110.

5 months back pay x $110 = $550
5 months backpay AIRCRA = $30

so $580 in backpay before tax........


----------



## BinRat55 (6 Sep 2008)

Yup. And mine was $100. I just didn't get the aircrew allowance.  Maybe they should pay us RA for all the crap we take at supply when spec trades get upset with us for saying no all the time?

(Joshing... although RA still wouldn't be a bad idea...)


----------



## aesop081 (6 Sep 2008)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> .  Maybe they should pay us RA for all the crap we take at supply when spec trades get upset with us for saying no all the time?



I would love to go to clothing and have a suppie say no to me. I cant do that though because the clothing stores has way better hours than bankers do. Ours is open 4 hours a week. Too bad i'm busy flying  on those days usually. 

 ;D


----------



## BinRat55 (6 Sep 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I would love to go to clothing and have a suppie say no to me. I cant do that though because the clothing stores has way better hours than bankers do. Ours is open 4 hours a week. Too bad i'm busy flying  on those days usually.
> 
> ;D



See, that's just the thing. Many people think that we have, as you said, better hours than bankers do... Our clothing stores is open mornings only 5 days a week. The afternoons are reserved for fixing the paperwork and many projects for one of the 2 staff I have there. The other goes to her second job in customer services because we have one person there doing the work of 4... make sense? We don't close, we dig in elsewhere. I'll tell you this - everyone on my Wing can call me at 0600H on a Sunday morning and if it's an emergency, we'll be there. Our SAR guys never have to worry about time - they call, make an appointment for when THEY are available, no questions asked. They miss an appointment and there was no launch? SWO gets a call.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (6 Sep 2008)

Sounds like CFS St. John's Clothing is open 0800-1200 for regular counter service but from 1300-1600 Emergency Service or Appointments only.


----------



## aesop081 (6 Sep 2008)

BR 55.....PM headed your way

Back on Track....

I like my new pay...cant complain.


----------



## NCRCrow (6 Sep 2008)

with Sea Pay &  Reg Pay =660

Roughly 334 extra, 

so I buy a printer today at Wal-Mart and I have to buy my own USB 2.0 cable???

Pay raise spent with a 8 of Wildcat and a cordless printer.


----------



## kincanucks (6 Sep 2008)

_Pay raise spent with a 8 of Wildcat and a cordless printer._

Screwed up print jobs because you are drunk - priceless.  ;D


----------



## BernDawg (6 Sep 2008)

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> so I buy a printer today at Wal-Mart and I have to buy my own USB 2.0 cable???


Yup, I found that out the hard way too.  Now I open the fricken box right in the store to see what kind of port it has before I leave.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (6 Sep 2008)

BernDawg said:
			
		

> Yup, I found that out the hard way too.  Now I open the fricken box right in the store to see what kind of port it has before I leave.



Read side of box it tells you what is included and most if not all printers don`t come with cables anymore.


----------



## BernDawg (6 Sep 2008)

Ya but some boxes just say "USB cable required" you still have to know what type of end you need.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (6 Sep 2008)

Could have sworn that a USB Cable is a USB Cable...


----------



## aesop081 (6 Sep 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Could have sworn that a USB Cable is a USB Cable...



alas, they are not.


----------



## George Wallace (6 Sep 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Could have sworn that a USB Cable is a USB Cable...



Oh! Oh!  The USB Cable for my printer, isn`t the same as the USB for my Camera, nor for my GPS, nor for my External Hard Drive, nor for my Scanner.  All different cables.


----------



## The_Falcon (6 Sep 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Could have sworn that a USB Cable is a USB Cable...



Nope, if have a USB 2.0 port, but use an earlier cable you will have a slower data transfer rate.  As well there are 3 different types of connections that plug into USB devices.


----------



## Harris (6 Sep 2008)

BernDawg said:
			
		

> Ya but some boxes just say "USB cable required" you still have to know what type of end you need.



I've seen a lot of printers, and I can't recall ever seeing a USB printer that didn't use a cable with a USB A connector on one end and a USB B connector on the other end.  For more info on USB see this site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#Cables


----------



## BinRat55 (7 Sep 2008)

It's funny, 'cause years ago we used to call our Sarge a USB (useless son of a *****) and much like the cords of today, you plugged him into a scenerio and garbled data came out the other end!! (And there were many different kinds too...)


----------



## George Wallace (7 Sep 2008)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> It's funny, 'cause years ago we used to call our Sarge a USB (useless son of a *****) and much like the cords of today, you plugged him into a scenerio and garbled data came out the other end!! (And there were many different kinds too...)



Would that have been a lot of "1's", but a lot more "0's"?       ;D


----------



## BinRat55 (7 Sep 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Would that have been a lot of "1's" and even more "0's"?



Binary was not a funny issue. I lost sleep because of those zeros!! Yeah, there were lots of 'em!!


----------



## 421_434_226 (7 Sep 2008)

Woooo Hoooo, back pay for raise plus 2 months back pay for promotion, hmmm now how to hide it from niner domestic   ;D


----------



## George Wallace (7 Sep 2008)

421_434_226 said:
			
		

> Woooo Hoooo, back pay for raise plus 2 months back pay for promotion, hmmm now how to hide it from niner domestic   ;D



Same place your Field Pay went.     ;D


----------



## 421_434_226 (7 Sep 2008)

Ah yes, the "damn government mystery deduction"     >


----------



## George Wallace (7 Sep 2008)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Binary was not a funny issue. I lost sleep because of those zeros!! Yeah, there were lots of 'em!!



Just remember:

There are 10 types of people in the world; those who understand Binary, and those who don't.


----------



## CountDC (8 Sep 2008)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Mine is good to go for MID SEP pay - maybe it's just the Navy-types!! (Gotta save all the back pay till end month for the mess  :blotto: )



hmmm- looking at the following posts it is looking more like Disneyland screwing its own pay!!! > :crybaby:


----------



## Sparkplugs (14 Sep 2008)

I knew this would happen, haha, 2% pay increase, and rations go up 12.5% to $477 a month.  Booooo!


----------



## BinRat55 (14 Sep 2008)

Got my back pay and managed to top out on my CPP as well - so for the next 3 months i'll enjoy even more a month!! I love it when that happens... i've even over paind my CPP (2000 +) so i'll get that back tax time!!   ;D


----------



## armyvern (14 Sep 2008)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> It's funny, 'cause years ago we used to call our Sarge a USB (useless son of a *****) and much like the cords of today, you plugged him into a scenerio and garbled data came out the other end!! (And there were many different kinds too...)



I am very glad to see that yellow word ... else there were good odds that you'd have found my smiling face at your door just before I proceeded to whoop your ass.  8)


----------



## Eye In The Sky (14 Sep 2008)

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> I knew this would happen, haha, 2% pay increase, and rations go up 12.5% to $477 a month.  Booooo!



Your rations went up 12.5%??

Seems that government will give you a raise, the CF has long enough time to plan some way to f**k you out of it.  Well done Mr Ration Guys, arseholes.


----------



## geo (14 Sep 2008)

Hmmm... something like 400$ extra on my pay - after taxes..... must be a combination of CPP/EI/and pay adjustments

Better sock this windfall away for XMass shopping


----------



## Eye In The Sky (14 Sep 2008)

What are the max-out #s for CPP and EI (roughly)  

Just curious, I see some people saying they maxed out, and as I look at my 15 Sep pay statement, I paid in both CPP and EI, and my Year to Dates are $2016.63 for CPP and $711.03 for EI.


----------



## geo (14 Sep 2008)

The CPP and QPP rate, effective January 1, 2008, remains at 4.95% of pensionable earnings. The maximum CPP/QPP contribution is $2,049.30 for the 2008 taxation year.

Once you reach the annual maximum premium deduction of $711.03 in 2008, you will see an increase in the amount of your net pay as there will no longer be EI deductions 

http://www.tax-services.ca/cpp-2008.html


----------



## kincanucks (14 Sep 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> The CPP and QPP rate, effective January 1, 2008, remains at 4.95% of pensionable earnings. The maximum CPP/QPP contribution is $2,049.30 for the 2008 taxation year.
> 
> Once you reach the annual maximum premium deduction of $711.03 in 2008, you will see an increase in the amount of your net pay as there will no longer be EI deductions
> 
> http://www.tax-services.ca/cpp-2008.html



Yes, however they will increase your superannuation contribution at that time so you don't feel too overwhelmed with the extra money.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (14 Sep 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> The CPP and QPP rate, effective January 1, 2008, remains at 4.95% of pensionable earnings. The maximum CPP/QPP contribution is $2,049.30 for the 2008 taxation year.
> 
> Once you reach the annual maximum premium deduction of $711.03 in 2008, you will see an increase in the amount of your net pay as there will no longer be EI deductions
> 
> http://www.tax-services.ca/cpp-2008.html



Geo,

Thanks much!  By the looks of it, my EI is topped and my CPP is about 30 bucks short.


----------



## SupersonicMax (14 Sep 2008)

Looks like both of mine are capped, 239$ more a month till december


----------



## Eye In The Sky (14 Sep 2008)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Looks like both of mine are capped, 239$ more a month till december



$239?  I pay $285 a month ??? and I am assuming your pay is higher than mine.


----------



## SupersonicMax (14 Sep 2008)

I,m on the LT GSO pay scale, incentive 1, so 4813.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (14 Sep 2008)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I,m on the LT GSO pay scale, incentive 1, so 4813.



Cpl, Standard, IPC 4, $4594  ;D

(but my VAC pension is tax free  )


----------



## armyvern (14 Sep 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Cpl, Standard, IPC 4, $4594  ;D
> 
> (but my VAC pension is tax free  )



WO, Standard, IPC 2, $5661.  

But, way too many headaches in the high-priced babysitting job that I have experienced lately.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (14 Sep 2008)

MCpl, Standard, IPC 4, $4005.60 (based on a 30 day month @ $133.52/day)  :-\



EDITED TO FIX GRAMMER


----------



## Eye In The Sky (14 Sep 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> MCpl, Standard, IPC 4, $4005.60 (based a 30 day month @ $133.52/day)  :-\



When I got promoted/appointed Master-Jack, the pay was $74 and change a day...things are MUCH better now.   8)


----------



## vonGarvin (14 Sep 2008)

Capt, GSO, Incentive 6: $6981/month.  Yes, I realise that's 83772 a year.  That just means that my wife gets that much a year, and I get an allowance. ;D


----------



## HItorMiss (14 Sep 2008)

MR

I amd 9er officialy hate you!!!!!

Guess I have a CFR in my future now, thanks for that BTW  :-\


----------



## vonGarvin (14 Sep 2008)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> MR
> 
> I amd 9er officialy hate you!!!!!
> 
> Guess I have a CFR in my future now, thanks for that BTW  :-\


Hey, it's not all roses.  You'd have to suffer through AOC, and get french, and OPMEs.....it's hell, I tells ya....hell! ;D


----------



## HItorMiss (14 Sep 2008)

Already Bilingual.....the rest seems like a lot of brain work and im not the smrt....I am sure I could pass the phase training though


----------



## aesop081 (14 Sep 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> WO, Standard, IPC 2, $5661.



SGT, Specialist 1, IPC 0, $5594

pretty darned close to what you make Vern........with alot less headaches


----------



## armyvern (14 Sep 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> SGT, Specialist 1, IPC 0, $5594
> 
> pretty darned close to what you make Vern........with alot less headaches



That's 67 bucks less a month in beer you get. I win!!  ;D  >


----------



## SupersonicMax (14 Sep 2008)

Vern, he gets more with his aircrew allowance


----------



## aesop081 (14 Sep 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> That's 67 bucks less a month in beer you get. I win!!  ;D  >



I get $297 in aircrew allowance so i'm up on you by $230


----------



## Pea (14 Sep 2008)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> MR
> 
> I amd 9er officialy hate you!!!!!
> 
> Guess I have a CFR in my future now, thanks for that BTW  :-\



Who are you kidding?... You know there is a way better chance that I'll commission rather than you.   

I'd post my pay, but ya'll don't really need to laugh that hard do ya? Besides I'm too busy drooling over all your incomes. LOL. Anyways, I'm just excited that I get a raise to Pte IPC 3 Next month! Yippee!


----------



## armyvern (14 Sep 2008)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Vern, he gets more with his aircrew allowance



Yeah, but I'm a chick ... and for some reason, some guys actually spend *their* money buying beer *for* me -- I win!!  >


----------



## Sparkplugs (14 Sep 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Yeah, but I'm a chick ... and for some reason, some guys actually spend *their* money buying beer *for* me -- I win!!  >



Touche, she's got ya there!


----------



## blacktriangle (14 Sep 2008)

If I avoid wives, sports cars, kids, beer, smoking, fast food, phones, tv etc AND get a house to rent out, along with a diversified investment portfolio I should be able to retire while I'm a Pte...


37k a year, go me!


----------



## George Wallace (14 Sep 2008)

popnfresh said:
			
		

> If I avoid wives, sports cars, kids, beer, smoking, fast food, phones, tv etc AND get a house to rent out, along with a diversified investment portfolio I should be able to retire while I'm a Pte...
> 
> 
> 37k a year, go me!



Yup!  Just you and the Internet.


32K a year.  Go you!


----------



## blacktriangle (14 Sep 2008)

The guy on the phone said IPC2...maybe my dreams will have to settle for dial up. 

Oh well, I'm just happy I get any pay!


----------



## Eye In The Sky (15 Sep 2008)

So....when I got up, I logged on to my online banking to pay the bills before going out the door....no pay in the bank.  FFS.

Anyone else not get paid this run??


----------



## BinRat55 (15 Sep 2008)

I got paid on Saturday - all of it!!

Um, Vern, how is it I get you to come visit me again??


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (15 Sep 2008)

Paid Sat as well.  Royal Bank


----------



## armyvern (15 Sep 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> So....when I got up, I logged on to my online banking to pay the bills before going out the door....no pay in the bank.  FFS.
> 
> Anyone else not get paid this run??



Wierd.

Like the others, mine was actually in on Saturday --- it's been quite a while since I actually saw my pay go in early.

TD Canada.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (15 Sep 2008)

Mine went in Friday night/ Saturday Morning, CIBC.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (15 Sep 2008)

I checked with the pay folks at the CSOR, who said it was released to the bank...checked with the bank, seems them forgot to post it.

So 30 minutes ago...my pay was in my account.

And..in about 6 hours I should be broke again  :blotto:


----------



## Sparkplugs (15 Sep 2008)

Did anyone else not get the raise backpay yet?  I called the BOR and they said it's going in for the end of Sept, but that it was the only one they'd seen so far with that.  Guess I have to wait another two weeks, booo-urns, hahaha.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (15 Sep 2008)

My retro went in on the 15th as I transfered from Class B (which ended on 30 Aug) to Class A (won't see pay till 30 Sept)


----------



## CountDC (15 Sep 2008)

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> Did anyone else not get the raise backpay yet?  I called the BOR and they said it's going in for the end of Sept, but that it was the only one they'd seen so far with that.  Guess I have to wait another two weeks, booo-urns, hahaha.



welcome to the club.  if it makes you feel anybody any better I was informed that approx 90% of NCR are in the same boat - waiting for end month to receive the back pay.

(edited to correct the funny entry without removing it - typing while talking is a hazard of the trade)


----------



## BinRat55 (15 Sep 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> ...if it makes you feel anybody...



LOL!!  I love it when people talk while they type...


----------



## Eye In The Sky (15 Sep 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> welcome to the club.  if it makes you feel anybody any better I was informed that *approx 90% of NCR are in the same boat * - waiting for end month to receive the back pay.
> 
> (edited to correct the funny entry without removing it - typing while talking is a hazard of the trade)




/sarcasm on

"Its nice to see NDHQ ensure the units have received their backpay prior to accepting theirs...THATS LEADERSHIP!"

/sarcasm off

 :blotto:


----------



## PMedMoe (15 Sep 2008)

I must still be on the "Kingston" pay system because I got mine today.  ;D

On a totally separate note, the security clearance update sent out by my unit *over two years ago*, showed up today (with a date of Nov 06) stating that they had never received a hard copy of the stupid thing.  So now it is updated until today and resubmitted.


----------



## NL_engineer (15 Sep 2008)

I didn't get paid till between 0930 and 1200 hrs today, checked before, and after PT, and it wasn't there  :; checked at lunch, and it was in then.


----------



## armyvern (15 Sep 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I must still be on the "Kingston" pay system because I got mine today.  ;D
> 
> On a totally separate note, the security clearance update sent out by my unit *over two years ago*, showed up today (with a date of Nov 06) stating that they had never received a hard copy of the stupid thing.  So now it is updated until today and resubmitted.



Well, if your clearance was bumping up a level or two (or past a certain level) --- 24 months these days seems to be the norm before a file gets looked at.

It is around here anyway.


----------



## PMedMoe (16 Sep 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Well, if your clearance was bumping up a level or two (or past a certain level) --- 24 months these days seems to be the norm before a file gets looked at.
> 
> It is around here anyway.



Nope, just being updated....


----------



## Puss~in~Boots (16 Sep 2008)

Being in the NCR has nothing to do with the problems you may be having with the backpay.

The CF Pay Raise was posted in the CCPS against most members account on 22AUG08. 
In most cases, it's sitting there on your pay guide waiting for your pay clerk to release the funds.

At this point, no one has been missed apart from the problem encountered with the raise with the Senior Officers Colonel and above which will be fixed in the End September payrun.


----------



## CountDC (16 Sep 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> /sarcasm on
> 
> "Its nice to see NDHQ ensure the units have received their backpay prior to accepting theirs...THATS LEADERSHIP!"
> 
> ...



Ouch - boohoo - nobody likes us.   :crybaby:  wait - I'm no longer NDHQ although still in NCR - why nail me too.


----------



## CountDC (16 Sep 2008)

NL_engineer said:
			
		

> I didn't get paid till between 0930 and 1200 hrs today, checked before, and after PT, and it wasn't there  :; checked at lunch, and it was in then.



that would have been your bank holding the funds until 1000 when the bank opens.  Unfortunately some banks will do that and it is legit.


----------



## CountDC (16 Sep 2008)

Puss~in~Boots said:
			
		

> Being in the NCR has nothing to do with the problems you may be having with the backpay.



Are you sure?  haven't heard anyone else out there having the same problem



			
				Puss~in~Boots said:
			
		

> The CF Pay Raise was posted in the CCPS against most members account on 22AUG08.
> In most cases, it's sitting there on your pay guide waiting for your pay clerk to release the funds.



In most cases outside the NCR it was released for Mid Sep pay - thus again - are you sure being in the NCR has nothing to do with it?


----------



## PMedMoe (16 Sep 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> In most cases outside the NCR it was released for Mid Sep pay - thus again - are you sure being in the NCR has nothing to do with it?



I am in the NCR and I received it on the mid-month pay.


----------



## CountDC (16 Sep 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I am in the NCR and I received it on the mid-month pay.



now how did you get it?  Must be in a different letter group with the CFSU(O). Was told by the clerk there that 90% were not getting it until the end month. hmmm - maybe I'll do some more checking on that and see if the Pte is a reliable source.


----------



## armyvern (16 Sep 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> now how did you get it?  Must be in a different letter group with the CFSU(O). Was told by the clerk there that 90% were not getting it until the end month. hmmm - maybe I'll do some more checking on that and see if the Pte is a reliable source.



Probably because she's just gotten posted there IR --- and her pay details, addressing didn't change.


----------



## Puss~in~Boots (16 Sep 2008)

You might want to check out that source because it's not reliable. 
I have access to everyones pay guide and I can asure you that no one was missed. 
If they were, it is a specific pay problem related to them only. 
You might want to make sure you're entitled to it  

We don't load the pay raise by SN numbers or letters. It's a bulk upload to the CCPS.


----------



## PMedMoe (16 Sep 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> now how did you get it?



'Cause I'm "special"


----------



## Fishbone Jones (16 Sep 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> 'Cause I'm "special"



I must be too. I got $20.00 and change for mid month :


----------



## BinRat55 (16 Sep 2008)

Puss~in~Boots said:
			
		

> I have access to everyones pay guide ...



Everyone's????


----------



## armyvern (16 Sep 2008)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Everyone's????



Geez, an RMS clerk ... who'd have thunk it?

As a Sup Tech --- I'm pretty sure you have access to everyone's clothing docs yes?

So, here's my suggestion to you because you seem so concerned:

If your pay gets screwed around with, issue qty 1 ea X Submarine onto docs of one CF member named Puss~in~Boots. 

Debt settled & situation handled.


----------



## Puss~in~Boots (16 Sep 2008)

Yes, everyone's pay. Im "special" too!!

Don't insult me!  Im far from being an RMS Clerk  :  I work for a living!

I'd say more but then I'd have to kill you   :threat:


----------



## BinRat55 (16 Sep 2008)

No, it's not concern per se, it's just that I was told once that unless they were given "alt-pon" only my own base could see my pay info... 

I do like the submarine idea though... got a S/C for a Leopard C2??   ;D


----------



## armyvern (16 Sep 2008)

Puss~in~Boots said:
			
		

> Yes, everyone's pay. Im "special" too!!
> 
> Don't insult me!  Im far from being an RMS Clerk  :  I work for a living!
> 
> I'd say more but then I'd have to kill you   :threat:



CR ... AS? Other ...?

I haven't issued you a weapon yet!! But, I may ... please PM your Pri number.  ;D


----------



## armyvern (16 Sep 2008)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> ... got a S/C for a Leopard C2??   ;D




Well, I do have one for "Caroline" (She's a Sherman however) ... as she sits right now on the bailey bridge in Chilliwack; I'm moving her to a different account. Do you have ESP!!??


----------



## Puss~in~Boots (16 Sep 2008)

I myself am an AS and I don't have a weapon of choice. There's a couple here i'd like to throw grenades at so hook me up will ya!


----------



## armyvern (16 Sep 2008)

Puss~in~Boots said:
			
		

> I myself am an AS and I don't have a weapon of choice. There's a couple here i'd like to throw grenades at so hook me up will ya!



Sure you do --- you're a trained _quiller_.


----------



## dapaterson (16 Sep 2008)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> No, it's not concern per se, it's just that I was told once that unless they were given "alt-pon" only my own base could see my pay info...



For "normal" users, that is the case, but certain staff in Ottawa have all-access, and can see all files (and a select few have the ability to change any file, too).  Vey useful when the oddities arise that the local clerks have never been taught how to handle.


----------



## BinRat55 (17 Sep 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> ... Do you have ESP!!??



Excellent Supply Powers... yeeessss!!!


----------



## CountDC (17 Sep 2008)

Puss~in~Boots said:
			
		

> You might want to check out that source because it's not reliable.
> I have access to everyones pay guide and I can asure you that no one was missed.
> If they were, it is a specific pay problem related to them only.
> You might want to make sure you're entitled to it
> ...



I think you may have misunderstood what I said way back. The problem is not that it didn't show up on my pay guide, it was not released on the mid/sep pay. The reference to letter groups is that the Pay/rcds Offices are divided into cells by letter groups and perhaps my clerk did not release the funds to his/her members.

I have contacted another source and they are unable to provide any info (or simply do not want to get involved).


----------



## George Wallace (17 Sep 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> I think you may have misunderstood what I said way back. The problem is not that it didn't show up on my pay guide, it was not released on the mid/sep pay. The reference to letter groups is that the Pay/rcds Offices are divided into cells by letter groups and perhaps my clerk did not release the funds to his/her members.
> 
> I have contacted another source and they are unable to provide any info (or simply do not want to get involved).



I have run into this problem at least once in my life.  My Pay showed up on one list, but when the Clerk went and checked another list, someone had seen two people with the same name and scratched mine off the list, taking the MCpl off, and leaving the Capt.  It was a simple matter for the Pay Clerk to fix in the matter of minutes.  When I checked the next day, my pay was released by the Bank.


----------



## CountDC (17 Sep 2008)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> For "normal" users, that is the case, but certain staff in Ottawa have all-access, and can see all files (and a select few have the ability to change any file, too).  Vey useful when the oddities arise that the local clerks have never been taught how to handle.



Also useful when some clk at another base has somehow convinced the local global access user or  an alt pon clk to alt pon one of your mbrs to them and then takes full control. Alt pon clk gets nasty gram and no more alt pons, local global access user gets nasty gram and warning on abuse of their access priviledges, clk that stole account gets nasty grams from everyone and no longer has friends. God how I hate when people steal my mbrs, especially when they screw up the account. Dumbest thing I heard one day - I did it because he said the allowance dates were wrong and I had to correct them. Now that is a clerk I want to handle my pay - by the way I got promoted to General yesterday, can you correct it in the system for me. Think you got clerk problems - try being one and dealing with a bad clk.


----------



## CountDC (17 Sep 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I have run into this problem at least once in my life.  My Pay showed up on one list, but when the Clerk went and checked another list, someone had seen two people with the same name and scratched mine off the list, taking the MCpl off, and leaving the Capt.  It was a simple matter for the Pay Clerk to fix in the matter of minutes.  When I checked the next day, my pay was released by the Bank.



What a shock - 2 people with the same name, would never have thought, that must be why we have SN. At least you found someone to resolve it quick. If I really wanted to I could go to the pay office and get my clerk to issue a cheque - just didn't want to if most of the others had to wait until the end month. If the info I was given is incorrect then I will raise waves as it means - one clerk lied to me and another did not do their job and ensure at least my pay(and possibly others) was issued correctly. To think it used to be clerks took care of each other.


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## The_Falcon (23 Sep 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> *What a shock - 2 people with the same name, would never have thought, that must be why we have SN.* At least you found someone to resolve it quick. If I really wanted to I could go to the pay office and get my clerk to issue a cheque - just didn't want to if most of the others had to wait until the end month. If the info I was given is incorrect then I will raise waves as it means - one clerk lied to me and another did not do their job and ensure at least my pay(and possibly others) was issued correctly. To think it used to be clerks took care of each other.



But if you have 2 people with the same last name and the same last 3 on their service numbers ??! >


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## BinRat55 (24 Sep 2008)

Seen it before - in Clothing Stores. Poor guys docs were a mess!! All it took was to actually look at the FULL  SN, but you know how it is, you get used to doing something one way (last name last 3) and than bang - something like that comes along and teaches us a lesson!!


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## armyvern (24 Sep 2008)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Seen it before - in Clothing Stores. Poor guys docs were a mess!! All it took was to actually look at the FULL  SN, but you know how it is, you get used to doing something one way (last name last 3) and than bang - something like that comes along and teaches us a lesson!!



And, I will back you up on that factual incident; what bothers me to this day though ... is why it occured - it's not like we normally ask them for "just" last three's anymore being that we have to input the whole service number to access their account.

One time ... buddy writes down only the last 3 & the suppie serving him didn't notice, paperwork transmitted later ... no full SN --- Suppie looks him up and chooses the first last name that matches with the same last 3 ... what were the odds that if he scrolled to the next page that he'd have found another with same last name and last 3? Not big, but obviously possible. Lesson learned.  :-\


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## McG (24 Nov 2008)

> PSAC, government reach tentative agreement
> Mohammed Adam , The Ottawa Citizen
> Published: Monday, November 24, 2008
> 
> ...


http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=c690052a-a758-4d29-9ec4-fb8c1755273c


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## SupersonicMax (24 Nov 2008)

Does that mean we're getting it too???


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## McG (24 Nov 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> ... the CDS' decision to announce the 2% does not preclude another adjustment ONCE the PS contract negociations are complete.  I can only thank the CDS for biting the bullet and coming up with some cash to tide us away until PS negs are done.


So, do we still think there is room for optimism?


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## aesop081 (24 Nov 2008)

6.8% over 4 years........wow


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## Nfld Sapper (24 Nov 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> 6.8% over 4 years........wow


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## garb811 (24 Nov 2008)

I think a month or two ago the UNDE was talking about the puny offer they received, 2.2% per year for 3 years or something.  Doesn't look so bad now.


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## dapaterson (24 Nov 2008)

Given the CF already got 2% for this FY, it will likely equate to a 0.3% retro adjustment (01 Apr 08 onwards), plus 1.5% for each of 09/10, 10/11, and 11/12.


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## geo (24 Nov 2008)

I should point out that this 4 year contract covers .... last year & this year (cause they've been working without a contract for the last two years) .... plus the upcoming two years.


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## George Wallace (24 Nov 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> I should point out that this 4 year contract covers .... last year & this year (cause they've been working without a contract for the last two years) .... plus the upcoming two years.



 ;D

So.  By the time we see any of that pay in our pockets, it will be time to start negotiating again.  

Ain't this fun.


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## geo (24 Nov 2008)

The wheel of perpetual motion.... practical application ;D


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## BinRat55 (25 Nov 2008)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Given the CF already got 2% for this FY, it will likely equate to a 0.3% retro adjustment (01 Apr 08 onwards), plus 1.5% for each of 09/10, 10/11, and 11/12.



Yes, but what is not widely understood is that the 2% already received by the CF this year was a "Cost of living adjustment" - it has absolutely nothing to do with a wage parity increase based on what our civilian sector will receive. And by the way - it's not retro to Apr '08, it's retro to when their contract expires - in this case, the beginning of the fiscal year just after. Apr '07 is when any parity increase will be retro to - we _technically _ could receive 2.3% retro to Apr '07 and 1.5% retro to Apr '08. The disclaimer here, of course, is that the TB is under no obligation whatsoever to match (or even come close) to a wage increase based on our civilian sectors.


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