# what do you do with cadets that are forced to come?



## Jonny Boy (13 Jan 2005)

??? OK some of my staff in my corp are forced to come out to cadets. they do not do there jobs properly and they do not follow orders. i was just wondering with chap in place what could i possibly do to try and straiten theses cadets out. any advise it welcome from all elements because i am sure that all senior cadets have had to deal with this at one time or another.

thanx

  :threat:x


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## Docherty (13 Jan 2005)

Sorry, are they Sr. NCOs? or Officers?


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## gt102 (13 Jan 2005)

You could bring it up to your CO, then have them have a one on one chat with them. Then the CO could have a talk with the parents...


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## Jonny Boy (13 Jan 2005)

They are M/Cpl's   one of them was a M/Cpl when i joined 3 years ago now i am a MWO. all my officers are very good. they all do there job properly. what i have started to do is a strike type program if they screw up 3 times they will be demoted so i will have to see if that works.


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## Jonny Boy (13 Jan 2005)

the CO is aware of the situation. the cadets don't care if they get in trouble. if they were to get kicked out they would be happy.


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## Docherty (13 Jan 2005)

There isn't really much you can do as a cadet to discipline them but what you can do is put them on extras (make them polish door handles, take the garbage out) stuff that will keep them at training longer than they want to be.  If they continue to do this round them up and take them to see the CO immediately.


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## Saorse (13 Jan 2005)

I just typed up this entire message and it froze. Here comes the shortened version.

Attempt to think outside the box when trying to get ahold on outrageous cadets. Even speaking as a Master Corporal, I have come across this more then once when teaching a lecture, and I have quickly learned that bellowing and yelling orders is not always the most practical means to solving a problem cadet.

There are two things I have applied to cadets in my corps that are at least worth trying before dismissing cadets to a CO. Dismissing cadets in a group is often seen as a joke, and not as a punihsmnet, and neither respect nor knowledge are usually present to the cadet as to them being dismissed. First thing is try to get a cadet who has been around the block a few times, and who the entire corps tends to look up to and respected as an individual. If there are problem cadets, give them a chat with a cadet with authority, a calm and just personality, and someone whom the cadets will respect. At least in this way, the cadets feel more respected in the way they are being approached.

Another thing to do possibly is, if you are in the middle of pitching a tent or teaching a map lecture or something along the sorts, give the problem cadets the leadership task of making it happen. Give them charge in pitching the tent, let them teach the lecture, for but a brief period of time. Through this, they will either falter and realize that they need to listen, realize that what the senior cadets are doing is truly harder than it appears, or will continue to act around. Then, punishment beyond what a senior cadet can administer may be warranted.

Don't be afraid to show respectful authority and be the bad guy at times, but don't make a living of shouting and yelling. Remember that for every problem cadet in the world, the true sense of pride as a senior cadet is finding the diamond in the rough who strives to succeed for all the right reasons. Use your mind; there are solutions to every problem.

EDIT: This belonged in the what to do when cadets are forced to come thread. My computer decided it was up for a bit of disarray, I suppose.  :-\


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## Dane (13 Jan 2005)

Don't make them the enemy, so many times I see the Cadet thats made it clear they don't want to be there made the enemy by their NCOs, and even Officers at times. Give the Cadet a sense of belonging and purpose. I'm not saying have a group hug but use exciting events, competitions etc to build interest. We use several seemingly unimpoirtant jobs to keep Sappers and junior Corporals engaged and it works quite well to keep up their interest even though ghty're doing relativly unimpoirtant things.... (Not that it doesn't matter to have it done)


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## Sharpey (14 Jan 2005)

If they are forced to be there against their will, why not suggest they quit? They are obviously of little use. Secondly, in the Corps I work with we have brought in the Military's Chit system, wich basicly is, 3 strikes and you are in s$#t! Further occurances of the same nature will cause escalation in the warning system and to release if required. I don't believe Cadet's fall under the Code of Service Discipline, but if they did, it would be a whole different world for Cadets.


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## Jonny Boy (14 Jan 2005)

ya they are in charge of doing phone calling for there crews. they never get it done. it always falls on the troop IC to do the phone calling and it is becoming a real hassle. I know that when i give them responsibility they never get the job done.

i have tried talking to them but they will always act like they don't care and sometimes talk back. they can not quit because there parents will force them to stay in. 

i dont want you to think the situation is out of control becouse it is not. i am dealing with it but i was wondering if there was more options.

i will take all the advice that you guys have given me and put it into play. 

thanx


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## Saorse (14 Jan 2005)

If parents are forcing cadets to attend, then look no farther for the problem. 

Is this something you are assuming, however? Is there a direct way for you to know they are forced to attend? They may be purposely attempting at a dismissal from the corps, if your reasoning is truly valid. Matters like these are touchy, sketchy, and impossible to deal with on a level that keeps everyone happy. 

I'm not really sure how could solve such an issue: you can't exactly walk up to the parents about this, and maybe it would not be such a hot idea to discuss it confidentially with the CO, either. This is how cadets loses its fun.


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## Jonny Boy (14 Jan 2005)

they have told me and other cadets in my corp that they are only here because they are forced to be there. so i know that they are forced. But they are headed towards demotions. I am sure if they are forced to come out they will still be forced to come as a lower rank or with no rank at all.


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## Scott (14 Jan 2005)

Sharpie said:
			
		

> I don't believe Cadet's fall under the Code of Service Discipline, but if they did, it would be a whole different world for Cadets.



Cadets is a civilian organization, no Code of Service Discipline. CIC are members, they fall under the same rules that everyone else does in the CF.


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## Sharpey (14 Jan 2005)

-Hutch-, seems like you are in a leadership position. You have recognized the problem and are acting on it, kudos to you. I, since I started working with the Cadets, have noticed that some take it very seriously, others take it as a joke. I for one would wish more would take it seriously. Honestly, Cadets isn't the Boy Scouts now is it!?! The ones that take it seriously and do their job are the ones that move up the ranks and become more responsible. If they don't want to do their jobs, so be it, they can pay the consequences. One of the RSM's from the Corps I work with has recently aged out and joining my Regiment. I can see him becomming a good troop. So my advise to those in Cadets that wish to make a career with their Affiliated Regiments, should show enthusiasm, do their best, and get the job done. This one Cadet has gained my respect and I will probably be teaching him in the near future. I know what to expect from him and know he will do well on his courses. Sometimes, people are watching 'ya know.


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## Saorse (14 Jan 2005)

-Hutch- said:
			
		

> they have told me and other cadets in my corp that they are only here because they are forced to be there. so i know that they are forced. But they are headed towards demotions. I am sure if they are forced to come out they will still be forced to come as a lower rank or with no rank at all.



Then this is a family control problem, once which, as far as I'm aware of, cannot be taken on as a situation by a cadet corps unless a cadet so chooses to formally tell someone of the problem. I'm not sure what can be done, my friend.


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## Franko (14 Jan 2005)

If you can't sort them out, push your concerns up the chain of command.

You can only coddle them so long, then it's time to get the higher powers in your corps to do their job and sort them out.....

Either by giving extras or kicking them out.

You have, by the sounds of it, tried your best to get them to sort themselves out....to no avail. Remember, Mcpl is an appointment, not a promotion. The rank can be taken away by the CO at any time. If they don't want the responsibility, the CO SHOULD take it away....in front of the corps if need be, to set an example to the other trouble makers.

It's a bit over the top....but it works for the one's who are at the fringes of getting to that point. We've don't it at a few corps that I've worked at and the pers involved either got out or changed their attitude and got thier act together and returned to their previous rank.

Regards


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## Kunu (14 Jan 2005)

If a cadet is discouraged due to lack of advancement and such, providing meaningful duties and/or opportunities for showing leadership can possibly help.   I have seen the performance of some cadets drastically jump after a promotion, although by no means am I advocating them out of pity (these were usually cadets who had just missed the cutoff a few times).   

However, if a cadet simply does not want to be part of their Sqn/Corps, the system should not pander to them at the expense of cadets who genuinely care.   By pander, I mean such things as spending disproportionate amounts of time attempting to discipline/motivate them as opposed to making the experience more worthwhile for other cadets as a result of more and better classes, exercises, etc.   On a couple occations, I bluntly asked problem cadets if their presence in the Sqn was their own choice, and if it were not, I then suggested they have a talk with their parents.   Speaking to the cadet in a mature, respectful manner was the key.   One time this resulted in an angry mother claiming I was trying to get her precious little baby to quit, however I simply held my ground maturely and professionally.   As it turns out, the mother was the real problem, and did not want to accept that fact.  

Canada has a professional military where nobody is forced to join and people are told upfront that it's not for everyone.   I see no reason why the cadet system should be practiced any differently.


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## Docherty (14 Jan 2005)

I see you have a problem with you Cadets calling their Cadets.  I recently had this problem and until my Section Cmdrs reported to me on time I had them report to me every 30 minutes on training nights to tell me there where abouts of their Cadets.  This seamed to work because it is a hassel for them and I guess my Section Cmdrs realized it is easier to just call their troops than report to me every 30 minutes.


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## armygurl_557 (14 Jan 2005)

What we did in our corps was Put the cadet all in the new recruit platoon..  Then they got tired of being treated like they werent as good as the rest of our corps and getting selected last for everything from exersises to uniform issues.


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## Zedic_1913 (14 Jan 2005)

We've had a few cadets like that over the years, we usually get them sorted out ... and if that doesn't work we consider releasing them from the corps.  

Personally I can't stand cadets that don't put forth an effort ... "go hard or go home" is what I always say.  You can get so much out of this system by putting in a concentrated effort, and thats what I try to tell people that aren't motivated to be there.

We also make sure anyone considering to join has a clear understanding of what they're getting into, and we stress that cadets is not for everyone.  We emphasize the importance of being respectful and following orders ... if that sounds like something someone can't handle we advise them not to join.


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## alan_li_13 (14 Jan 2005)

> Secondly, in the Corps I work with we have brought in the Military's Chit system,



That's what our corp needs, hutch, chits, so i can write up my fellow sgts who dont do their phonecalling, and cadets do just plain foolish stuff! We should figure this out ASAP


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## Jonny Boy (15 Jan 2005)

i think we used to use chits i will talk to my officer about it thanks for all the advice.

oh and Li i bet you know the cadets i am talking about in my squadron don't you?


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## Saorse (15 Jan 2005)

It appears that some of these posts are missing the drift: the Master Corporals in question are not putting forth a lack of effort because of being ignorant or what not, but simply because the parents behind the cadets have driven all fun from the matter, and are forced to be there. Extras could not solve such a problem.


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