# What to do when pulled over by the Police



## J.J (29 Nov 2007)

http://www.cnn.com/2007/LIVING/wayoflife/11/29/pulled.over/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

There are few things more nerve-wracking, or more anxiety-producing for even the most law-abiding driver, than seeing the flashing red and blue lights of a police car in your rear-view mirror.

It doesn't always have to be a harrowing experience, even if you know that you were driving well over the speed limit, or that your registration is expired, or heaven forbid, you've had a few too many cocktails and are behind the wheel anyway.

There are a few simple rules to follow to make sure the experience doesn't have to be any more unpleasant than it already is -- considering that it's likely you will come away with a fat ticket.

We sought the advice of a former Virginia State Trooper, now retired and working happily at an intelligence analyst job for a federal agency in Washington, D.C. He asked that we not use his real name, "because I don't want people to think I'm trying to draw attention to myself," he said. 

He chose a colorful alias, asking that we just refer to him as Trooper Tom. Here are his six tips.

Pull over in a safe area

First of all, the most important rule to follow is to pull over in a safe area, as soon as it is reasonable and safe to do so. "Don't pull over in a place that is going to put you or the officer in danger," says Police Officer Tom -- like a narrow left-hand-lane shoulder on a highway. "If you do that, the officer is not going to get out and risk being hit -- he's going to get on the loudspeaker and tell you to move over to the right shoulder, and then you have to negotiate traffic to try to cross the highway. That can be aggravating, and you don't want to lock yourself into a ticket by making the officer mad," he says.

Don't coast

Secondly, don't coast for several blocks before pulling over. "If you just keep coasting, the cop is going to think, 'What is this guy doing?' He may think you're stalling because you're trying to stash something," warns the police officer. "If you pass a few safe places to pull over, the officer is definitely going to think you're up to something, and that raises suspicion."

Keep the engine running

Surprisingly, Police Officer Tom also advises you not to turn off your engine, especially if you're driving an old beater that's not reliable. "I generally didn't like the citizen to turn off his engine, because if it's an older car, it might not start again, and then you're in a situation where you have to wait for the guy to call a buddy or call a wrecker, and he's mad because you stopped him -- I'd just as soon not have to negotiate all that," says the police officer.

Keep your hands on the wheel

Keep your hands on the wheel as the trooper or officer approaches your vehicle. "That's how people kill you -- with their hands," muses Police Officer Tom. "They can reach for a weapon or the gear shift, which can turn the car into a weapon. We always focus on the driver's hands, and if they're not on the wheel, we're immediately more apprehensive, and that doesn't help your situation if you're the driver."

Stay in the car

You should always stay in the car. "I didn't want anyone out of the car, ever," says Police Officer Tom emphatically. "If they get out of the car, I'm thinking they have something to be afraid of, like they're wanted, or intoxicated, and in either case, that's a safety issue for the officer," warns the police officer. 

"I don't care if you're the baddest officer there is, there's always someone out there who's badder than you, and if we can keep them inside the car, that's the best way to keep from being injured. If they're inside the car, they can't fight you and maybe grapple for your gun and shoot you."

Be careful what you say

Being polite to the officer isn't necessarily a pre-requisite, concedes Tom. "I never demanded respect," the police officer insists. "I only didn't want disrespect. If you want to be rude and yell and complain and say you're going to file a complaint against me, that's fine, I heard that all the time -- just don't get physical. And don't use curse words in an aggressive way, because in Virginia, anyway, that can get you arrested for disorderly conduct."

The police officer details some of his more exciting or amusing traffic stops -- that is, when people did not take the advice he shared above, and paid the price. 

Once, he pulled a woman over on the highway for violating the High Occupancy Vehicle (HOV) law. In Virginia, during morning and evening rush hours, vehicles traveling in the left-hand of some highways near Washington, D.C. are required to have more than one occupant. The ordinance is aimed at cutting down congestion by encouraging more drivers to car pool.

"She got out of the car and she was immediately extremely irritated," recalls the police officer in his Tennessee-by-way-of-Virginia accent. "I guess she was en route to a job interview. Now, I can put up with a lot of static, so it takes a lot to get me excited over an HOV ticket, but she was is in my face immediately, and she starts cussing and complaining, and she's actually making the process take longer because she won't let me write the ticket. I asked her to get back in her car, and she did, but in 15 seconds, she came roaring out again.

"This happened several times, and her anger kept escalating, and she kept yelling and cussing," continues Police Officer Tom with a wry laugh. "So finally, I had to roll my window up while she was yelling at me, just so I could finish writing the ticket. Well, I guess she didn't like that because she yanked my door open and said, 'Don't you ignore me, you m------- f------!' Well, that was it, she crossed the line there, so I cuffed her and arrested her for disorderly conduct and took her in."

The bottom line is that the original HOV violation was just a $50 fine, but the disorderly conduct conviction would have given her a criminal record, explains the police officer. 

"And she had a job with the federal government, so a criminal conviction would have meant losing her security clearance, and therefore her job. So during negotiations between her attorney and the commonwealth prosecutor, she eventually paid a $2,500 fine in exchange for lowering the charge to a careless driving violation. So that turned out to be a pretty expensive outburst on her part."

One serious but amusing tale involved a driver who was "power-braking" his pick up truck outside a raucous Springfield, Virginia, bar at 3:00 a.m. He was extravagantly spinning and screeching his tires "and just filling the air with blue smoke and burning rubber," recalls the police officer. 

"And he's doing it right in front of me at a traffic light. So I pulled him over, and he was clearly intoxicated, but he wasn't belligerent or anything -- he was a nice guy, an 'ol' country boy. But he failed every field-sobriety test I gave him." 

This included a breathalyzer test, which revealed that he had a .18 blood alcohol level, more than double the legal limit for driving.

But the guy kept insisting that he be allowed to perform "his own test" which he claimed would prove he was not drunk. So finally, just out of curiosity, the police officer acquiesced -- with no guarantees. 

"So the guy takes off running, and all of a sudden he goes into this cartwheel/back flip, with his cowboy boots on, and his legs go counter-clockwise, and he lands it, perfectly, in his cowboy boots, like he was a gymnast at the Olympics or something."


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## zipperhead_cop (29 Nov 2007)

WR said:
			
		

> http://www.cnn.com/2007/LIVING/wayoflife/11/29/pulled.over/index.html?iref=mpstoryview
> One serious but amusing tale involved a driver who was "power-braking" his pick up truck outside a raucous Springfield, Virginia, bar at 3:00 a.m. He was extravagantly spinning and screeching his tires "and just filling the air with blue smoke and burning rubber," recalls the police officer.



It always amazes me how many people who are prohibited from driving go out of their way to draw attention to themselves.  However,  I would love to be able to offer doing a back flip as a way to get out of a DUI.  Of course, I'd be calling for a lot more breath tests at the hospital as well.   ;D

Another good idea is unless it is pouring rain, if you have tinted windows roll down all four.  At night, also do that, and put on your interior light.  That is letting the officer know that you are thinking about things that will make them feel safer, and sets the groundwork for you maybe getting a warning.


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## Thompson_JM (29 Nov 2007)

Man, I do all these things and even in uniform, and I still get the tickets.....

I seem to get the cops with no sympathy.....  ;D

Though the truth of the matter is, Had I not been Speeding in the 1st place, They would not have pulled me over! (and here endith the lesson)


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## Fishbone Jones (29 Nov 2007)

Tommy said:
			
		

> Man, I do all these things and even in uniform, and I still get the tickets.....
> 
> I seem to get the cops with no sympathy.....  ;D
> 
> Though the truth of the matter is, Had I not been Speeding in the 1st place, They would not have pulled me over! *(and here endith the lesson)*



Unless you really do look like your avatar  ;D


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## JAWS228 (29 Nov 2007)

Officer: "Sir, you were going 80 km/h over the speed limit and I had to chase you for 15 miles there.  Mind telling me why?"

Speeder: "Sorry Officer, it's just that my ex-wife married a cop and I thought you were trying to give her back." ;D


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## Old Sweat (29 Nov 2007)

A good friend of mine (a retired BGen) was hauled over for speeding on the 401. The police officer told him he had been driving thirty kilometres over the speed limit and asked to see his licence. After examining it, the officer said "Your name is familar. Do you have an airborne coin?" It was produced, at which point the offence was reduced to a warning with a strong talking to. At the end of all this my friend asked to see the officer's coin, to which request he responded, "you're in no position to ask."


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## Haggis (29 Nov 2007)

Never ask: "You're not going to search the trunk, are you?"


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## JBoyd (29 Nov 2007)

When asked "Sir, your eyes look a little red, have you been drinking tonight?"

Never respond with "Sir, your eyes look a little glazed, have you been eating donuts tonight?"


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## Shamrock (29 Nov 2007)

Tommy said:
			
		

> Man, I do all these things and even in uniform, and I still get the tickets.....
> 
> I seem to get the cops with no sympathy.....  ;D



The problem is they don't respect you.  Pulling over is a sign of submission, a sign of weakness.  Police face this crap all day and it gets tedious.

Next time, what you have to do is turn on your signal light to show your intent to pull over.  Then book it.  This shows the cops you'll concede if and only if they are up to the challenge of catching you.  It triggers their competitive spirit and makes a traffic stop more rewarding for them.  They're more likely to give you a break if you've put them in a good mood.

In other news, I know a good lawyer who pays a client finder fee...


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## Haggis (29 Nov 2007)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> Next time, what you have to do is turn on your signal light to show your intent to pull over.  Then book it.  This shows the cops you'll concede if and only if they are up to the challenge of catching you.  It triggers their competitive spirit and makes a traffic stop more rewarding for them.  They're more likely to give you a break if you've put them in a good mood.



Cool.  I'm going to try this on the way home from the mess tonight.  I own a 4X4 and live in the country, so that should really give' em a challenge.



			
				Shamrock said:
			
		

> In other news, I know a good lawyer who pays a client finder fee...



Number, please? (I may need it tomorrow morning...)


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## Sig_Des (29 Nov 2007)

You're both the kinds of guys who sent new Ptes for Brass magnets during range cleanups, aren't you?  ;D

As far as getting pulled over. You probably got caught. If so, yes sir, no sir, stow the attitude, and take your licks (I don't mean the nightstick variety, Z-Cop   )

If you didn't do anything, that doesn't mean you should be a dick. You can always fight a ticket.


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## Shamrock (29 Nov 2007)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> You're both the kinds of guys who sent new Ptes for Brass magnets during range cleanups, aren't you?  ;D
> 
> As far as getting pulled over. You probably got caught. If so, yes sir, no sir, stow the attitude, and take your licks (I don't mean the nightstick variety, Z-Cop   )
> 
> If you didn't do anything, that doesn't mean you should be a dick. You can always fight a ticket.



Don't listen to this man.  He's the sort to tell you that telling the RSM he has lint on his beret in front of the entire regiment is a bad idea.


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## Sig_Des (29 Nov 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCsrDgDA81U


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## DirtyDog (29 Nov 2007)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Unless you really do look like your avatar  ;D


Funny, that's what I was thinking.

I've never had a problem with the police (well, in the last decade or so).  Common sense and courtesy seem to go a long way.  Women can be a problem though (but not all).

I in no way endorse this sort of thing, but I can remember back in the day being pulled over the the local police taking what remained of my beer and telling me to "take it easy" on the way home becasue it was obvious I'd had a few.  More then a few instances like that.


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## Haggis (29 Nov 2007)

:warstory:
While coming home with a family pizza, my son was pulled over at a RIDE check.  The offcer asked if he'd been drinking and he, correctly, replied "no, sir".  the cop said "is that pizza I smell?"  "Yes, sir." said the my son. "That smells good.  Maybe I should confiscate it." says the cop.  My son's face drops and he replies "Please, sir...... don't.  It's for my family."  He was "let go".
 :warstory:

(Recounted to me by the cop at the RIDE check, a friend of mine, who knew this lad was my son.)


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## Thompson_JM (30 Nov 2007)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Unless you really do look like your avatar  ;D




That was just the end result of too much time on a slow night in wainwright.... aka EVERY night in wainwright!


I just dont get it... maybe its my car or something???  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D


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## geo (30 Nov 2007)

Years ago, was pulled over bu the SQ... asked to get into the back seat of the cruiser, given the device & told to blow... Blow I did, the cops didn't like the reading and had me do it again... and again.

At which point the Senior constable told junior to give me back my papers & let me go.... 
Junior was bellyaching that "he just knew" I was gassed .... 
Ended up that the Senior came up to me and appologized for his partner's behavior - told me that some village somewhere was missing it's idiot.


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## xo31@711ret (1 Dec 2007)

told me that some village somewhere was missing it's idiot.  ....LOL!  Seniority counts!


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## zipperhead_cop (2 Dec 2007)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> As far as getting pulled over. You probably got caught. If so, yes sir, no sir, stow the attitude, and take your licks (I don't mean the nightstick variety, Z-Cop   )



Never use it.  Or the spray.  I'm all about the hands (well, elbows and knees, technically  ).  At least until I get a taser.  Then it's going to be Edison medicine for anyone who so much as has a cocked eyebrow.   :
Agree with the "don't argue" though.  Most times, we could care less about the outcome of a ticket in court.  If you want to plead it down on the day of, it is rare that anyone will deny you.  Even the traffic guys.  However if you managed to highlight yourself as a special person, fahgetta bahtitt.


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## Thompson_JM (2 Dec 2007)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> ...Then it's going to be *Edison medicine *  for anyone who so much as has a cocked eyebrow...



Dear God that one is Brilliant!

Im wiping up the water I _was_ drinking as I type this...

if you dont mind tell me (PM if you prefer) how come you tend to avoid the Stick and Spray? Just not effective enough to make it worthwhile? 

Cheers


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## JBoyd (2 Dec 2007)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Then it's going to be Edison medicine for anyone who so much as has a cocked eyebrow.   :



Technically wouldn't it be Tesla Medicine ?, or perhaps a Swift Shock?


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## Neill McKay (2 Dec 2007)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> At least until I get a taser.  Then it's going to be Edison medicine for anyone who so much as has a cocked eyebrow.   :



Interesting comment, that.


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## zipperhead_cop (2 Dec 2007)

Tommy said:
			
		

> if you dont mind tell me (PM if you prefer) how come you tend to avoid the Stick and Spray? Just not effective enough to make it worthwhile?



There just never seems like a good reason to use the baton, and the couple of times I did it wasn't effective.  It got the guys attention, then I was back to hands and also had to worry about my baton rolling away or being grabbed by someone else (think big downtown bar fight scenario).
I dislike spray probably because I personally hate being around the stuff.  You sauce a guy, then you have to sit there spraying water into his eyes while sheets of snot run out of him which they tend to spit and shake everywhere.  It wastes time to decontaminate.  Plus, you always run a bit of a risk of cross contamination when it hits the wind or bounces back from the conclave shape of an eye socket.  Over and above that, mental determination can get some people through the pain and thus render it useless.  Other people may feel different, but that seems to be the norm around our city.  



			
				JBoyd said:
			
		

> Technically wouldn't it be Tesla Medicine ?, or perhaps a Swift Shock?



No, because that doesn't rhyme.  Plus, wasn't Tesla into broadcasting energy?  Tasers use probes to deliver their shock.  



			
				Neill McKay said:
			
		

> Interesting comment, that.



Lighten up, Francis.  It was just a crossover comment from the other ongoing taser thread.  Or were you just trying to get a post in so you could get updates?


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## JBoyd (2 Dec 2007)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> No, because that doesn't rhyme.  Plus, wasn't Tesla into broadcasting energy?  Tasers use probes to deliver their shock.



Yes 'Edison Medicine' has a better ring to it. Tesla was a major pioneer in modern AC, Edison was in to DC, Does the taser utilize principles of AC? or DC?

but dont forget about Tom Swift


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## zipperhead_cop (2 Dec 2007)

I believe that tasers use DC current.  I don't know who Tom Swift is.


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## Roy Harding (2 Dec 2007)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> I believe that tasers use DC current.  *I don't know who Tom Swift is.*



You're obviously the product of an underprivileged childhood.  (Or maybe I'm just older than you).

Tom Swift - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Swift
                  http://tomswift.bobfinnan.com/


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## IN HOC SIGNO (2 Dec 2007)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> There just never seems like a good reason to use the baton, and the couple of times I did it wasn't effective.  It got the guys attention, then I was back to hands and also had to worry about my baton rolling away or being grabbed by someone else (think big downtown bar fight scenario).
> I dislike spray probably because I personally hate being around the stuff.  You sauce a guy, then you have to sit there spraying water into his eyes while sheets of snot run out of him which they tend to spit and shake everywhere.  It wastes time to decontaminate.  Plus, you always run a bit of a risk of cross contamination when it hits the wind or bounces back from the conclave shape of an eye socket.  Over and above that, mental determination can get some people through the pain and thus render it useless.  Other people may feel different, but that seems to be the norm around our city.
> 
> No, because that doesn't rhyme.  Plus, wasn't Tesla into broadcasting energy?  Tasers use probes to deliver their shock.
> ...



WRT spray....my neice (RCMP in BC) was out on a call one night with another member and they pulled over a belligerent individual. Said individual got her partner by the throat so she climbed in the other side of the vehicle and put the guy in a headlock. This freed up her partner who got his spray out but at the last minute the individual struggled and the spray hit my neice full in the face instead of the intended target. Needless to say...she isn't a big fan of spray anymore either. ;D


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## Kat Stevens (2 Dec 2007)

Spray is an area weapon, even bystanders get a taste of it if the wind is right wrong.


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## JBoyd (2 Dec 2007)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> I believe that tasers use DC current.  I don't know who Tom Swift is.



I agree with Roy, underpriviledged childhood indeed.

Plus I figured someone would have told you what taser stood for too...

Thomas A Swift Electric Rifle


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## zipperhead_cop (2 Dec 2007)

JBoyd said:
			
		

> I agree with Roy, underpriviledged childhood indeed.



I would be making the usual pot/kettle analogy if it did not appear as though you are still within yours and therefore still subject to assessment.  



			
				IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> WRT spray....my neice (RCMP in BC) was out on a call one night with another member and they pulled over a belligerent individual. Said individual got her partner by the throat so she climbed in the other side of the vehicle and put the guy in a headlock. This freed up her partner who got his spray out but at the last minute the individual struggled and the spray hit my neice full in the face instead of the intended target. Needless to say...she isn't a big fan of spray anymore either. ;D



There is a possibility that your niece's partner is a bit of a clod.  You shouldn't be using your spray that close to your partner.  Hopefully, since they would be going to the hospital anyway, they were able to clean her up well.


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## Old Ranger (2 Dec 2007)

Pull over and stop before the officer even gets his/her lights on....
It works well and usually segways into some good road side humour.

SPRAY SUCKS!...I have been the recipient of indirect and accidentally direct sprays...Not a huge fan :'(


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## geo (2 Dec 2007)

Heh.... it's not like you were intentionally sent into a gas chamber without a mask...

or the other time, when you go in with the mask, are told to do some pushups, take off the mask, give your name, rank & SIN and told to exit using the back door.... only to find out that the back door is locked & you have to bull your way thru the room and out the front door......


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## Old Ranger (2 Dec 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> Heh.... it's not like you were intentionally sent into a gas chamber without a mask...



Gas Hut was like a day at the "Spa" in comparison... ;D


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## IN HOC SIGNO (2 Dec 2007)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> I would be making the usual pot/kettle analogy if it did not appear as though you are still within yours and therefore still subject to assessment.
> 
> There is a possibility that your niece's partner is a bit of a clod.  You shouldn't be using your spray that close to your partner.  Hopefully, since they would be going to the hospital anyway, they were able to clean her up well.



Agreed ZIP....what was he thinking?? The Corporal had some pretty pointed words for him when they got back to the Detachment.


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## Thompson_JM (2 Dec 2007)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> There just never seems like a good reason to use the baton, and the couple of times I did it wasn't effective...
> I dislike spray probably because I personally hate being around the stuff.  You sauce a guy, then you have to sit there spraying water into his eyes while sheets of snot run out of him which they tend to spit and shake everywhere...



Cant Argue with those answers....

sounds to me like the TASER still has the best track record out of all the intermediate weapons then....

and having had pepper spray (very light, indirect amount) even though it was only enough to be a minimal irritant (some idiot sprayed it in a school hallway when i was working as a janitor) it was still tangy enough to make me not like it all that much... and it also made the hallway unwalkable for 45 mins. while it got vented out. (good thing it was after school hours)


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## X-mo-1979 (2 Dec 2007)

Chris Rock
"How to not get your ass kicked by the police."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yRyEWsIkMc


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## zipperhead_cop (3 Dec 2007)

Piper said:
			
		

> Pull out your badge and off ya go.



Membership has its privileges.   ;D

Be smart about how you play the ID card, though.  Maybe segway into something like "jeez, my sergeant major is going to kick my ass when I tell him about this".  Hopefully that will twig the officer to inquire about your status.  I never like "I don't know if it helps, but x,y,z".  I don't need "help" deciding if someone will get a break, and it seems like the inference is "you're going to give me a break, here let me make it easier for you".


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## Sig_Des (3 Dec 2007)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Membership has its privileges.   ;D
> 
> Be smart about how you play the ID card, though.  Maybe segway into something like "jeez, my sergeant major is going to kick my *** when I tell him about this".  Hopefully that will twig the officer to inquire about your status.  I never like "I don't know if it helps, but x,y,z".  I don't need "help" deciding if someone will get a break, and it seems like the inference is "you're going to give me a break, here let me make it easier for you".



And don't try to give him some army-related BS Story.

I heard of a guy who tried the "I'm speeding, because I just got called off leave and have to report to Pet for standby." When he couldn't back it up, trouble brewed.


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## Thompson_JM (3 Dec 2007)

agreed... if youre accually being called in for an emergency thats fine.  but BS never ends well.....

there are more and more Ex Mil types on the police service (I have been told) and nothing could be worse for your already bad situation then to lie to someone who used to do the job.

remember, ultimately YOU are the reason that YOU are being pulled over.


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## IN HOC SIGNO (3 Dec 2007)

I usually find, "Sorry I screwed up there." to work much better than trying to flash an ID around. I was stopped one night after I ran a red light late in Armdale on the other side of the Rotary here in Halifax. I co-operated fully and said "You know what I just wasn't paying enough attention and had no excuse not to stop back there." He said "OK sir I'm just going to run your info and I'll be right back." When he came back he said "OK sir, it's late and you're probably tired....wake up and pay attention...have a nice evening."
In a town of over 7000 military he would't have been too impressed with an ID I don't think. Truth be told I deserved the ticket and he was being a nice guy.


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## Klc (3 Dec 2007)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> I believe that tasers use DC current.



The power supply is DC, but the pulses it uses are most definitely are AC -  at around 20hz


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## Shamrock (3 Dec 2007)

Personally, I'm a fan of "Listen, corporal, don't mistake your authority for my rank."  Pretty hard to fill out a ticket from the position of attention.

It's important to establish similar levels of dominance with civilian police.  Before they get there, whip out the ID and say, "My rank is (x) and you will address me as such.  You will provide me the courtesy my rank requires, even if you are not a serving member."

Sure, you're going to get the ticket, but imagine the horror you'll inflict on the next person to be pulled over!


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## Old Sweat (3 Dec 2007)

It is very important to demonstrate one's status, or class if you like. There was an old army story about an officer in the Black Watch battalion which was based at Aldershot in the days while Gagetown was still under construction. The young gentleman delivered a fatal blow to his already shakey career by exclaiming to a RCMP member who had stopped him for speeding, "Out of my way, Bufoon. I'm on Her Majesty's service."


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## Haggis (3 Dec 2007)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Membership has its privileges.   ;D
> 
> Be smart about how you play the ID card, though.  Maybe segway into something like "jeez, my sergeant major is going to kick my *** when I tell him about this".  Hopefully that will twig the officer to inquire about your status.  I never like "I don't know if it helps, but x,y,z".  I don't need "help" deciding if someone will get a break, and it seems like the inference is "you're going to give me a break, here let me make it easier for you".



In our area the OPP and local police will usually call the offender's Sgt Maj (as a professional courtesy) if the offender identifies themselves as a CF member (or are found out during the "encounter").

Also, the OPP in eastern Ontario  have an SOP to inform the MP if a CF member is arrested by them.  I beleive this may be a province-wide policy.


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## geo (3 Dec 2007)

Heh... (same SOP Haggis) In our area, all police forces are in daily liaison with the MP CWO I work with.  We get the whole sad story - every morning... makes for interesting reading over morning coffee


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## foresterab (3 Dec 2007)

When I worked in Northern BC there was an officer who was quite the stickler over speed limits.  Yes..getting pulled over for speeding is my fault for going too fast but getting a ticket for being 71 in a 70 zone...annoying.

Later that summer the following story made it's way around town and all issues stopped regarding this individual:

This same officer later that summer pulled over a car and proceeded to do his usual "license, registration, insurance information" and proceeded to cite the fellow for speeding just over the same 70 speed limit.  He gave the same plea of "give me a break" and "can't you make an inspection" and the officer proceeded to tell him "the rules are the rules and there can be no exceptions" as he handed the ticket over.

At which point the driver proceeded to politely sign the ticket and started looking for the officer's name and details.  When asked what was going on the driver told him..I'm a member of BC's Workers Compensation Board doing safety audits and now...my turn since "the rules are the rules". You've failed to put on safety vest, you're not pulled over all the way and you haven't turned your tires when you parked...that's three safety violations and here's your ticket for failure to comply.

RCMP - $105
WCB - $450.

I guess there is a certain justice in the world.

All that being said politness and a willingness to co-operate helps a ton when pulled over. Especially when you don't know where all the paperwork is...


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## edgar (3 Dec 2007)

Does anyone remember the email joke that went around a few years ago - "Things you don't say to the cops when they pull you over"?
The only one I can remember is "Don't you guys have some sort of fitness standard your supposed to keep to?


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## zipperhead_cop (3 Dec 2007)

foresterab said:
			
		

> RCMP - $105
> WCB - $450.
> 
> I guess there is a certain justice in the world.



I give you that issuing a ticket for 1 over most certainly highlights that Member as an idiot.  However, doing the "I enforce labour code" thing is what we call starting a war.  Yeah, you can lob out some buns too, but since your job entails driving on a highway it would be counter productive to the entire department to try that.  Ultimately, the ones who start it are rarely the ones who get piped in the ensuing bad blood.  The same thing happens with the CBSA guys from time to time, with there never being any good outcome.
And we are not required to wear vests to do vehicle stops (at least in Ontario), off setting on a vehicle stop is to create a safety lane and is allowed, and the wheels wouldn't need to be in any direction, since the cruiser is stopped, not parked.  If you're going to play that game, make very sure you have all your ducks in a row.



			
				edgar said:
			
		

> Does anyone remember the email joke that went around a few years ago - "Things you don't say to the cops when they pull you over"?
> The only one I can remember is "Don't you guys have some sort of fitness standard your supposed to keep to?



I think if you do a search, you might even find that on this site.


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## edgar (3 Dec 2007)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> I think if you do a search, you might even find that on this site.


My search fu is weak.


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## Colin Parkinson (3 Dec 2007)

I had a “Mirrored sunglass Commando” from the Motorcycle squad give me a ticket for not having a complete front license plate (there was a little left after getting scrapped against a rock 4x4ing) He gave it to me a early Sunday morning, while he was waiting to escort the Sunrun runners at Beach Ave. I suspect he was trying to impress some of the cute girls looking at his Harley. I was in my CoastGuard uniform, clearly marked, I just looked at him and listened to his drivel, yes I was quite polite as always. After he had finished, I asked him if he had a boat, he said yes and I said “Oh Good, I am going to enjoy inspecting it” I was in a foul mood when I arrived at the base, where there was several RCMP types that worked closely with us, when I told them what transpired, they were equally disgusted with this guy.  

Back in the good old days we used to get quite drunk with our motorcycle escort, one time we had to return their steeds to the station via truck as none of the cops were capable of driving. That was an interesting visit.  ;D

Another story: Taking young constables from the various police forces that border the Fraser River on a familiarization ride on the hovercraft. One young guy asked what happens when we pick up a body in the middle of the River, how do we decide where we land the body? I replied: That depends on who gave one of our guys a ticket”


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## geo (4 Dec 2007)

foresterab said:
			
		

> When I worked in Northern BC there was an officer who was quite the stickler over speed limits.  Yes..getting pulled over for speeding is my fault for going too fast but getting a ticket for being 71 in a 70 zone...annoying.
> 
> Later that summer the following story made it's way around town and all issues stopped regarding this individual:
> 
> ...



Heh... I am positive that the WCB guy thought he was smart.... I can promise you that, taking the issue to court would have one and only one reslut.... the WCB ticket would be thrown out... and the WCB officer would probably be up "on charges" for abusing his authority.


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## George Wallace (4 Dec 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> Heh... I am positive that the WCB guy thought he was smart.... I can promise you that, taking the issue to court would have one and only one reslut.... the WCB ticket would be thrown out... and the WCB officer would probably be up "on charges" for abusing his authority.



And the Cop?  How accurate is his radar?  When did he have it calibrated?  How accurate is a speedometer?  Have you ever had yours calibrated?  Get real.  1 km over the limit.  That is a farce.


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## geo (4 Dec 2007)

George,
I have no doubt thae 1Km over limit charge would be thrown out as well


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## 241 (4 Dec 2007)

Isn't there an SOP of sorts where they have to give 5 or 10 km/h grace to compensate for a speedometer being out slightly? Or is that just something most of them do on there own?


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## geo (4 Dec 2007)

on most highways, cops will tolerate up to 19km over the posted speed limit... 
(on highways, I use cruise control to ensure I don't go beyond that)

Whren you get into school zones.... level of tolerance drops down quickly..... I keep to posted limit in school zones


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## jimb (4 Dec 2007)

In my experience, the first 60 seconds of conversation with a driver will decide how lenient an officer will be with said driver.  While walking up to the stopped vehicle, most guys will be watching the head and the hands of the driver, to see if any "furtive moves ' are being made under the seat or the dash. 

Not opening the drivers side  window  fully or keeping the officer waiting too long, will all signal a red flag, most of the time. 

If the first words from the driver are swear words, or abuse, things just got more serious, If the driver adds to the problem with "no lic " "no insurance " "no registration " and more lip, they will get a "attitude adjustment " . Followed by a in-depth records search and a few Provincial Offence Notices,  and of course, with no lic , they are "walking  home ". Car seized and towed, too. Elapsed time ,    at least  an hour or more, out of the shift.

Jim B. Toronto.


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## Neill McKay (4 Dec 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> on most highways, cops will tolerate up to 19km over the posted speed limit...
> (on highways, I use cruise control to ensure I don't go beyond that)



19 over the limit is dangerous.  All speeding is dangerous to some extent, of course, but that much would erode the safety margins in the design of a highway to the point where you mightn't have time to stop for something in the road that came into view as you rounded a curve or crested a hill, e.g.  If you must drive that fast, I would urge you to keep it to straight and level sections of highway.

Speed limits are a function of several factors, some of which are not apparent to laymen.


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## Fishbone Jones (4 Dec 2007)

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> 19 over the limit is dangerous.  All speeding is dangerous to some extent, of course, but that much would erode the safety margins in the design of a highway to the point where you mightn't have time to stop for something in the road that came into view as you rounded a curve or crested a hill, e.g.  If you must drive that fast, I would urge you to keep it to straight and level sections of highway.
> 
> Speed limits are a function of several factors, some of which are not apparent to laymen.



Thanks Dad  ;D

The best advise is not to do anything wrong that would warrant you getting pulled over in the first place.


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## Thompson_JM (4 Dec 2007)

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> 19 over the limit is dangerous.  All speeding is dangerous to some extent, of course, but that much would erode the safety margins in the design of a highway to the point where you mightn't have time to stop for something in the road that came into view as you rounded a curve or crested a hill, e.g.  If you must drive that fast, I would urge you to keep it to straight and level sections of highway.
> 
> Speed limits are a function of several factors, some of which are not apparent to laymen.



+1 Recceguy

Also,  I wouldnt say +19 is dangerous, not overly dangerous anyways (since if it were, police would be pulling everyone over for dangerous driving...) I dont advocate speeding... but its not only speed that kills. driving beyond ones ability, or beyond road and weather conditions is what will get you killed. (speeding is really just a force multiplier for overall risk IMHO)

but, i am curious as to where your info came from. If you could Enlighten this layman, I would be interested to know just how speed limits are formulated... 

like why the provincial 400 series highways have a posted speed of 100kph but highways like the redhill creek expressway, and Lincon alexander parkway in hamilton are limited to 90kph, when for all intent, purpose and design they are the same kind of divided roadway, with entrance/exit ramps, and no cycle or pedestrian traffic allowed.

Just wondering...


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## zipperhead_cop (4 Dec 2007)

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> 19 over the limit is dangerous.


Lame.
Please tell me that you aren't the 110 vigilante that drives in the left lane because "it's fast enough"?  :-\

IMO the speed limit could be raised to 120 with little impact, since that is what people drive anyway.  Special provisions could be made for 400 series highways (and their friends) that stipulate that fines become brutal fairly quickly, and you could ramp up the points starting at 5 over and every 5 after that.  Also require commercial motor vehicles (HTA definition) to remain in the right lane at all times and not be allowed to go faster than 110.  



			
				241 said:
			
		

> Isn't there an SOP of sorts where they have to give 5 or 10 km/h grace to compensate for a speedometer being out slightly? Or is that just something most of them do on there own?



I think you are referring to the cosine error that comes from doing radar off the side of the road.  Think Grade 11 math, and x/y coordinates.  The cruiser is usually off the side, so while it is putting out radar/laser pulses it is on a slight angle.  This causes the monitored speed to be slightly lower than the true speed.  In order to get the true speed, you would have to stand out in the middle of the lane and hit the m/v dead on.  That has some obvious safety issues.  Also, the device rounds down fractions of km/h so if you were going 149.9 km/h, it would only read as 149.
So yes, the devices can be inaccurate, but in the favor of the victim motorist.    Also, some officers will drop the number at roadside if they are feeling nice or are working on their karma bank.  15 over is what you want, since it is a pretty small fine, but more importantly it is no points.


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## Old Sweat (4 Dec 2007)

As I recall, the speed limit on the 400 series highways in Ontario was 70 mph, or roughly 110 kph, in the early 70s. The oil price shock circa 1973 caused the imposition of reduced speed limits in Canada and the US to reduce gasoline consumption. Thus the 400 highways were designed for a traffic flow of over 110 kph, so the speed limit could be raised.

Whether we would do it is another matter. There is a helluva difference in mileage or whatever we call it these days between 100 kph and 110 kph, believe it or not.


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## Good2Golf (4 Dec 2007)

Zip, isn't 15 the next category?  I thought 1-14 over was the fine-only, points started at 15?  Then again, my last ride along with my neighbour was a few years ago...before he became a "white shirt"!  ;D  My buddt was(is) a Level 4 TTCI and I'd have fun going through his books reading up on the 85th percentile driver and ramp design, while we sat in the median waiting for some piker to come cruising along at 140 and try to blame it on a creeping cruise control  :

G2G

p.s.  I agree with recceguy and Tommy, there are many more factors including overdriving conditions, traffic, etc... than just doing the "safe" speed limit.  Why not ask yourself why a divided highway with concrete barriers between opposite directions is 100 km/h like the 400's while the Trans Canada is 110 km/h single-lane opposing in many places in the prairies?


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## Colin Parkinson (4 Dec 2007)

jimb said:
			
		

> In my experience, the first 60 seconds of conversation with a driver will decide how lenient an officer will be with said driver.  While walking up to the stopped vehicle, most guys will be watching the head and the hands of the driver, to see if any "furtive moves ' are being made under the seat or the dash.
> 
> Not opening the drivers side  window  fully or keeping the officer waiting too long, will all signal a red flag, most of the time.
> 
> ...



Wxactly treating the officer like a human being goes a long way.


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## zipperhead_cop (4 Dec 2007)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Zip, isn't 15 the next category?



Nope.  16 and over.  15 is the safe mark, or what everyone pleads down to.



			
				Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Why not ask yourself why a divided highway with concrete barriers between opposite directions is 100 km/h like the 400's while the Trans Canada is 110 km/h single-lane opposing in many places in the prairies?



Because city people are dumb and would annihilate themselves if left to their own devices.


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## COBRA-6 (4 Dec 2007)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Lame.
> Please tell me that you aren't the 110 vigilante that drives in the left lane because "it's fast enough"?  :-\
> 
> IMO the speed limit could be raised to 120 with little impact, since that is what people drive anyway.  Special provisions could be made for 400 series highways (and their friends) that stipulate that fines become brutal fairly quickly, and you could ramp up the points starting at 5 over and every 5 after that.  Also require commercial motor vehicles (HTA definition) to remain in the right lane at all times and not be allowed to go faster than 110.



I think those two conditions are far more dangerous than driving 19+, as others end up passing on the right and weaving between trucks driving in both lanes but moving about the same speed...


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## 241 (4 Dec 2007)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> I think you are referring to the cosine error that comes from doing radar off the side of the road.  Think Grade 11 math, and x/y coordinates.  The cruiser is usually off the side, so while it is putting out radar/laser pulses it is on a slight angle.  This causes the monitored speed to be slightly lower than the true speed.  In order to get the true speed, you would have to stand out in the middle of the lane and hit the m/v dead on.  That has some obvious safety issues.  Also, the device rounds down fractions of km/h so if you were going 149.9 km/h, it would only read as 149.
> So yes, the devices can be inaccurate, but in the favor of the victim motorist.    Also, some officers will drop the number at roadside if they are feeling nice or are working on their karma bank.  15 over is what you want, since it is a pretty small fine, but more importantly it is no points.



I was actually referring to any mechanical reason that the vehicle speedometer may be out a few km's, not too sure what you where saying there as me and my GED edumaction is lost haha ;D


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## zipperhead_cop (4 Dec 2007)

241 said:
			
		

> I was actually referring to any mechanical reason that the vehicle speedometer may be out a few km's, not too sure what you where saying there as me and my GED edumaction is lost haha ;D



I yer gunna say the machine ain't so accurate, it's true, but in your favour.


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## Meridian (4 Dec 2007)

My favourite experience was last year speaking to a friendly Montreal officer who decided to give me a 120$ failure to yield to a stop sign.    

This was on the last day of the month, the officer was a member of the (new) "traffic squad", and was positioned at the 6th stop sign in a row of 8 on a main connector (divided by median) that feeds off to residential streets. Apparently my "rolling stop" was not good enough for him. *sigh*.

All polite and everything, and he sure had me on my way quick - I ended up actually being lost, and as I returned back the other direction not 3 minutes later, he had already pulled over another victim at the exact same spot. A good day for the city coffers.    I particularly appreciated the "Victims Fund Contribution."


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## George Wallace (4 Dec 2007)

241 said:
			
		

> I was actually referring to any mechanical reason that the vehicle speedometer may be out a few km's, not too sure what you where saying there as me and my GED edumaction is lost haha ;D




Someone puts on larger or smaller rims and tires than the veh specs are for would be one cause.

Most speedometers are not 'finely' tune instruments to begin with.


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## 241 (5 Dec 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Someone puts on larger or smaller rims and tires than the veh specs are for would be one cause.
> 
> Most speedometers are not 'finely' tune instruments to begin with.



Yeah I know the causes, was just wonderinghave to if police leave room for other errors in vehicle speedos or if they do it out of curtiousy, but not really a big deal haha ;D


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## Colin Parkinson (5 Dec 2007)

241 said:
			
		

> Yeah I know the causes, was just wonderinghave to if police leave room for other errors in vehicle speedos or if they do it out of curtiousy, but not really a big deal haha ;D



The AG here came up with a zero tolerance rule, I asked a cop on the street how they intended to do this. He rolled his eyes and said, no cop was going waste their time pursuing a ticket for 5km or under that was guaranteed to be thrown out of court.


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## PMedMoe (5 Dec 2007)

Meridian said:
			
		

> Montreal officer who decided to give me a 120$ failure to yield to a stop sign.
> 
> Apparently my "rolling stop" was not good enough for him.



A rolling stop not good enough in Quebec?    Say it ain't so!!


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## geo (5 Dec 2007)

(We call em New York or American stops)


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## zipperhead_cop (5 Dec 2007)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> A rolling stop not good enough in Quebec?    Say it ain't so!!



It's probably an offence to slow down in Quebec.  He should have been blowing up to them at full speed, then sliding sideways through the intersection.  Keep your pack of Mentostm handy.   ;D


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## Thompson_JM (6 Dec 2007)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> It's probably an offence to slow down in Quebec.  He should have been blowing up to them at full speed, then sliding sideways through the intersection.  Keep your pack of Mentostm handy.   ;D



"Sir, what on earth convinced you that sliding through the intersection was a good idea?"

-"The Freshmaker?"

"Right, Off you go then..."


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## Old Ranger (6 Dec 2007)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Because city people are dumb and would annihilate themselves if left to their own devices.



And the problem with that would be??? ;D


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## Neill McKay (6 Dec 2007)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Lame.
> Please tell me that you aren't the 110 vigilante that drives in the left lane because "it's fast enough"?  :-\



No, I'm a civil engineer specializing in transportation engineering.



			
				 Tommy said:
			
		

> If you could Enlighten this layman, I would be interested to know just how speed limits are formulated...



A speed limit depends on the geometry of the highway.  Highways are designed so that a vehicle with certain standard properties (e.g. weight, height), with certain assumptions made about the driver (e.g. that he or she can perceive a hazard and react by applying the brakes in about 2.5 seconds), can be driven safely at a certain design speed.

The geometry of the highway is the big factor.  The radius of a curve affects how fast you can safely drive on the highway because it affects your ability to see objects in the way -- other cars, a moose, a box of canned food, or whatever.  It also affects the sideways forces on your car, counteracted by the banking of the highway.  Take a curve too fast and you risk sliding off the outside of it, or being surprised by something around the bend and not having time to stop or swerve around it.

Vertical curves (hills and valleys) also create sight-distance issues: when you crest a hill your sight distance is limited (until you get to a point near the top).  Same with entering a tunnel.

As is normal in engineering design there is a factor of safety.  A highway with a speed limit of 110 km/h can perhaps be driven by a standard driver, in the standard car, under good conditions, at 120 or 130 km/h before problems occur.  That's a 10-20 km/h safety margin on the fastest roads in the country.  19 km/h is pushing things even on a modern 4-lane divided highway.  Doing that on any less of a highway is likely to be correspondingly more dangerous.

There are a lot of people who do drive that much over the limit, and many of them have been lucky so far, but a fair number of them have not.


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## zipperhead_cop (6 Dec 2007)

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> As is normal in engineering design there is a factor of safety.  A highway with a speed limit of 110 km/h can perhaps be driven by a standard driver, in the standard car, under good conditions, at 120 or 130 km/h before problems occur.  That's a 10-20 km/h safety margin on the fastest roads in the country.  19 km/h is pushing things even on a modern 4-lane divided highway.  Doing that on any less of a highway is likely to be correspondingly more dangerous.



Dur....okay.  Now, I'm no math god, but if I'm looking at your numbers, you are saying in good conditions (which I take to mean weather and no road covering like gravel or boxes of canned food (okay like WTF?)) a person could go up to 130 km/h?  So, how is 19 over on a 100 km/h road so bad?  That is, like, still 11 less that the upper limit you said?   ???  Howz about a bit more help for the layman here?


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## midget-boyd91 (6 Dec 2007)

Rant warning.

   Speed limits, wonderful things aren't they? Hmm, its just too bad there are always those dumbasses who try to go as far over the limit as possible, or those who think they are safe ''as long as I'm comfortable at the speed I'm at.''   You see, speed has very much so taken on an entirely new meaning to me over the last few months. There have been a number of fatal crashes around here recently, most caused by young drvers and speed.
    Maybe two weeks ago there was a three car collision where two of the cars hit head on. Four people were killed, I knew two of them. My brother responded with the fire department and got to see birds picking at the face of his friend off of the pavement.. he lived for roughly twelve hours after the crash before passing. Even for first responders with 25+ years of experience, they said this was the worst they have encountered.   
   Fast driving has become a touchy topic with me since the people dying in these crashes were getting closer and closer to my own age. I personally think that anyone caught speeding should face an *extremely* heavy fine, and youth caught driving like that should have their lisence taken away for a minimum of one full year in addition to the fine. But that's just opinion, I'll let the lawmakers sort that out.
   In that crash two weeks ago, the two cars filled with the dumbasses, may they rest in peace, was travelling at 140km/h.  One hundred forty, and four people died. Why would we want to have our limits raised higher than they are now? Do people actually want it to become the norm to drive at 130-140? Why? Does that extra two minutes driving from The Valley to halifax really mean so much to you that you're willing to put those lives on the line? Just because somebody "feels comfortable and safe" driving at those speeds doesn't mean $hit isn't going to happen, and when on the highway... theres a hell of a big difference made between 115-20  and 135-40. Divided highways and multiple passing lanes or not, $hit still happens.
   I may not be the most experienced driver on the planet (or household), but I've still seen some completely dumb$hits on the highways around me. The ones who want to get off by driving fast or some other useless reason. I may not have the most life experience (in fact I think there are leftovers in the fridge older than myself), but I have seen some pretty nasty crashes.. and almost been in a few myself. And even now, when half a dozen people a month my age are throwing their lives down the shitter, I'll say that I have no use for anybody who decides to risk their lives and my life by speeding.  Our limits are fine as they are, raise them, and I guarantee you're going to see a dozen more young people dying a month in crashes.
   Well... I'm not sure if that was a rant, or a vent, but thats what I had in my mind on the matter.

*[/vant]*


midget


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## GAP (6 Dec 2007)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Dur....okay.  Now, I'm no math god, but if I'm looking at your numbers, you are saying in good conditions (which I take to mean weather and no road covering like gravel or boxes of canned food (okay like WTF?)) a person could go up to 130 km/h?  So, how is 19 over on a 100 km/h road so bad?  That is, like, still 11 less that the upper limit you said?   ???  Howz about a bit more help for the layman here?



I don't think he was advocating one way or the other, simply explaining the parameters of how speed limits are determined.


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## Fishbone Jones (7 Dec 2007)

Piper said:
			
		

> The Germans have (well, now it's had) no speed limits on their major highways....didn't have that many problems did they? Nope.
> 
> It's not speed thats the problem (going 100 or 140, you get hit your just as dead), it's the quality of drivers on the road. There are ALOT of VERY bad drivers on the road. I can't get over how incredibly bad people are at driving. No signalling, not paying attention, not pulling over for emergency vehicles (my major pet peeve).


Until they do have an accident on the Autobahn. Then it's very likely about a 400-500 car pile up with fender benders at the rear and total demolitions of the front 50-60. Very few exceptional drivers there are pros. Most are the same type of bozo we have on our highways. Only difference there is, if you're a traffic regulator, holding up traffic in the fast lanes, they haul your ass off the road. Yep, the fast lanes. Nothing like a guy flashing his lights to make you move over at 180kph, but you can't see them because he's only four inches off your bumper.


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## MommyMedic (7 Dec 2007)

Simple math: Force = Mass times Velocity Squared. Meaning? Speed exponentiates the amount of force applied to your body. Don't underestimate how it wreaks havoc. Heavier vehicle and other changes don't have nearly the effect of speed increases. 
The reduction in the time you have to react and avoid obstacles is a big issue as well. (More physics; the sooner you hit stuff the harder you hit it.) Since you can't change the stupidity of the drivers around you, you may want to give yourself more time and space between you and them. 

But hey, I'm just a blonde bimbo, what do I know? I just drive a big ambulance truck down the middle of the road.  :
Great "vant" midget; as per my PM good on you for reminding people of the real big reason not to drive like an idiot - it's not about not getting pulled over, it's about not dying needlessly.


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## KevinB (7 Dec 2007)

MommyMedic said:
			
		

> Heavier vehicle and other changes don't have nearly the effect of speed increases.



Bingo.

 [this is a dry by posting with nothing to do with the original topic - but I will wholeheartedly agree with the above poster ]

As for the topic -- when pulled over

Chris Rock has a good video on "how not to get your ass beat by police"


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## Rayman (7 Dec 2007)

Piper said:
			
		

> The Germans have (well, now it's had) no speed limits on their major highways....didn't have that many problems did they? Nope.
> 
> It's not speed thats the problem (going 100 or 140, you get hit your just as dead), it's the quality of drivers on the road. There are ALOT of VERY bad drivers on the road. I can't get over how incredibly bad people are at driving. No signalling, not paying attention, not pulling over for emergency vehicles (my major pet peeve).
> 
> ...



I have to agree with you its stupid people who pull out into the lane when theres not enough room to merge or how about those who do a left turn from an intersection and go straight over to the right turning lane thats blocked (I mean they havent even entered a lane-their car is still facing the direction of the other road) and try and push their little bumpers in to claim a spot. People who dont look when they're merging or changing lanes and yes those people who try and talk and drive at the same time that seem to push their way around the road.


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## IN HOC SIGNO (7 Dec 2007)

I think speed and bad/inattentive drivers are both the problem. I live on a street which is a cut through to a main road and honest to Pete you take your life in your hands trying to pull out some days because people are doing in many cases twice the speed limit.....it's a 50 and they are doing at least 80-100. That is just too fast...you don't have time to react when a little child runs out on the street or someone is backing out of their driveway. I live just around a bend so what happens is you look and the coast is clear...you begin to go and some* idjit * is right on top of you before you know it.

In most cases the speed limits are justified on our highways here and the limits should be respected. the people yacking on phones (not all of them are soccer moms or bimbos...most I see are business men and women and youngsters with boom boxes blaring and muffler making way too much noise).
Most people are not defensive drivers...they don't look far enough ahead to anticipate dangers and changing conditions. In my expert opinion there is a special place in Hell for drunken and drugged drivers. :rage:


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## George Wallace (7 Dec 2007)

You left out the idiots who are to scared to drive the limit and insist on driving 10 to 20 km under the posted speed in the left lane and are too scared to change lanes.  

Some will remember the two guys in Southern Ontario a few years ago who decided to drive the Posted limit, and drove side by side pacing each other on a two lane section of a 400 Series Hwy.  They were ticketed.

Speed is a problem, but not always just those who drive FAST.  People who drive too SLOW are a hazard also.


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## Neill McKay (7 Dec 2007)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Dur....okay.  Now, I'm no math god, but if I'm looking at your numbers, you are saying in good conditions (which I take to mean weather and no road covering like gravel or boxes of canned food (okay like WTF?))



A box of canned food in the middle of your lane can ruin your whole day!

Things do end up on the road from time to time -- bits of cargo off a truck, rocks from a hill next to the road, etc.  The taller they are the farther away you can see them, especially on a vertical curve.  If you drive too fast for the curve you won't have room to stop once you see them.



> a person could go up to 130 km/h?  So, how is 19 over on a 100 km/h road so bad?  That is, like, still 11 less that the upper limit you said?   ???  Howz about a bit more help for the layman here?



To be clear, I don't advocate ever driving faster than the limit.  Safe speed depends on a lot of factors, only some of which I've touched on here.  (Don't anybody tell a police officer who pulls them over "but a civil engineer said it was safe"!)

Every road is built to a certain design speed.  The difference between the design speed and the speed limit creates a safety margin.  If the speed limit is 100 the design speed is probably not 130.  It's more likely to be 110 or so.  If the speed limit is 70 or 80 the design speed is even lower.  In general, on a modern highway there won't be too big a gap between the design speed and the speed limit.  If there is, drivers will feel that they are driving too slowly for the road and will tend to speed.  So while there is some margin, it's not huge.


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## Colin Parkinson (7 Dec 2007)

Piper said:
			
		

> The Germans have (well, now it's had) no speed limits on their major highways....didn't have that many problems did they? Nope.
> 
> It's not speed thats the problem (going 100 or 140, you get hit your just as dead), it's the quality of drivers on the road. There are ALOT of VERY bad drivers on the road. I can't get over how incredibly bad people are at driving. No signalling, not paying attention, not pulling over for emergency vehicles (my major pet peeve).
> 
> ...



Well when you design cars for idiots, why are we surprised that they start driving? Hell they are making cars that park themselves, rather than forcing people to learn and practice. The Insurance companies don't help, there is little incentive to increase your driving skills. The driver education industry should take a page out of the PADI book and have a series of courses for people, those that take the courses get a discount on insurance.


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## George Wallace (7 Dec 2007)

Just a few points on the German Autobahn:

1.     Germans spend over 2000 Euros to take Driver Training in order to qualify for a Drivers Licence.  That covers driving on City, rural and Autobahn.  They also have to take First Aid Trg to get their licence.  Overall they are much better trained drivers than what we see here in Canada, where we see many immigrants from nations around the world who issue licences out of 'Cracker Jack Boxes'.

2.     The only places on the German Autobahn that one can drive in excess of 160 kph is in areas that have 6 to 10 lanes.  Any area with only two lanes is so heavily travelled that the right hand lane is bumper to bumper trucks, and the left lane is all cars travelling at the speed of the slowest car.

3.     Any accident or slow down on the Autobahn causes a 10 to 20 Km "Stau" within a couple of minutes.  

4.    Almost all Trucking from the former Warsaw Pact countries pass through Germany.

5.     Flashing headlights are a thing of the past, and now against the law.

6.     German drivers follow the "Rules of the Road" and have much better driving habits.  They for the most part have signal lights that work.

7.     French cars very seldom have Yellow headlights these days, so you won't be flashing you lights at them any more.    ;D


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## Kat Stevens (7 Dec 2007)

Q:  Why do they have yellow headlights in France?


A:  So you can hate them in the dark, too.  (from a very old, very drunk, German landlord)


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## Rayman (7 Dec 2007)

I read an article in a import car magazine a while back comparing some European countries licensing programs vs that of most of the Western world. The author stated that in some places it does cost 2000 or more Euros like what George stated, but also takes years to obtain-rather than the 20-60 bucks most of us pay on our lunch break to renew ours. Now most new drivers have to go through a stricter system to get their license. In Ontario where I first got my drivers license its one year with someone else and no one else (basically an instructor only) unless you take a drivers ed program which shortens the term to 8 months. Then you spend one year with your G2 which is like a full G class but if youre caught doing something its harsher penalties. Then G-youre fully licensed. Insurance companies offer SOME kind of discount (not all that much really since ive been driving since I got my G2) for taking drivers ed. However I left not even knowing how to drive a standard-that was a 400 dollar option on a 300 dollar course. All these creature comfort cars I agree are a bad way to go. They take the skill out of driving. The cameras and sonar type sensors they put on vans and SUVs now however I can agree with seeing as people get these things after being used to a car the size can make things interesting. However my first vehicle was a 98 Safari... so I had plenty of practice.


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## Colin Parkinson (7 Dec 2007)

My first cars were landrovers, no power anything and double clutching all the way. Good way to learn.


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## geo (7 Dec 2007)

Anyone remember when we weren't allowed to take out SMP vehicles on the Highway?

Heh.... And those nifty "MAX 50 MPH" bumper stickers... on the DND carryall that zips past you doing waaay more 8)


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## Colin Parkinson (7 Dec 2007)

I remember my WO driving a Deuce (downhill) above the speed limit, explaining to the officer that breaking the speed limit in one was not a crime, but a "Bloody Miracle!!!)  ;D

I remember getting up to 70mph+ in a Deuce and feeling it doing the "shimmy" That was on the long hill down to Yakima.


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## geo (7 Dec 2007)

Yup... doing 70 MPH in a deuce was highly unlikely.  You had to be a real magician to coax everything out of her... Many tried and few succeeded


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## Colin Parkinson (7 Dec 2007)

It helped to have a 105mm behind you and a long steep hill.....


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## Thompson_JM (7 Dec 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> Yup... doing 70 MPH in a deuce was highly unlikely.  You had to be a real magician to coax everything out of her... Many tried and few succeeded



Some of the MLVW's from meaford can barely do 70 KPH anymore!!

I was lucky enough to be in a Rocket Truck the other day.... yup... got it up to 93! 95 going downhill with a load and tail wind.....


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## Nfld Sapper (8 Dec 2007)

Had an MLVW SEV  do 100 in the traning area before  >


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## chrisf (8 Dec 2007)

The trick is to find a long hill and throw them into neutral once you've maxed out what the engine will handle... not that I've ever done it in an attempt to speed up a road move (Disclaimer: Really, don't try it)


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## Thompson_JM (8 Dec 2007)

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> The trick is to find a long hill and throw them into neutral once you've maxed out what the engine will handle... not that I've ever done it in an attempt to speed up a road move (Disclaimer: Really, don't try it)



yeah, Hillbilly overdrive is all fun and games until you put the thing back into drive, and the Driveshaft comes flying off, or god knows what....


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## geo (8 Dec 2007)

Nfld Sapper said:
			
		

> Had an MLVW SEV  do 100 in the traning area before  >



Ummm.... wouldn't brag about that around the road safety boys if I were you


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## Fishbone Jones (8 Dec 2007)

Yup, and next thing we'll see is another news article about soldiers killed because of an upset of a military vehicle.

A military vehicle that was neither designed, modified or maintained to attain those speeds. Never mind stop or handle properly at them.

Anyone on here talking about doing these assinine things, endangering themselves and others, including mom and the kids on the way to the store, has just admitted to various service contraventions.

This line of discussion will cease here on this forum. Next guy goes on the warning system.


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## geo (8 Dec 2007)

I should point out that the old SMPs (Deuce & Quads) were equipped with non directional "mud" tires that really and truly did not handle well on wet paved surfaces.


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## Nfld Sapper (8 Dec 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> Ummm.... wouldn't brag about that around the road safety boys if I were you



Yeah I know geo.


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## Fishbone Jones (8 Dec 2007)

This thread has outlived it's usefulness. It no longer has anything to do with the original post or subject anyway.

Locked.

Milnet.ca Staff


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