# refusal follow up procedure



## zander1976 (14 Apr 2011)

Hello Everybody, 

I have my doctors appointment tomorrow and I still haven't found any information on what I need in the letter from my doctor in response to my refusal. I have tried searching and I have read thousands of messages in this forum without much luck. 

So what is the D Med Pol looking for (I was refused for headaches and paxils with follow ups)?

Do they want to know why I take Paxil? what would happen if I don't take it? How often do I need follow ups? Am I capable of being in the military? I can't think of anything else? What format/topic should the letter cover? 

I have been taking Paxil for 3 years. I have to go to the clinic ones a year to get a refill on my prescription ( if that counts as a follow up ). I started taking it after quiting drinking. The amount I take started at 10mg ( the lowest possible ) and I had it upped each year since I might get immune to it. At this point I am seriously considering not taking it anymore ( I went to the doctor and requested it so I wouldn't be going against doctors orders ). 40mg is where they start a person that has to take it. I take 30mg.

The headaches use to happen after months of working a 80-100 hours a week ( 2 full time jobs ) while I live off coffee and cigarettes. Drinking a few glasses of water resolved the issue. Also I quit smoking now.

I also applied for an IT type position not front lines or officer positions. 

Thank you for all your help,
Ben


----------



## medicineman (14 Apr 2011)

It doesn't matter what you've applied for - everyone has to meet the same Common Enrollment Medical Standard.  If you're taking anti-depressants (which you are), could can't be enrolled if you're taking them.  If you get prescription refills, you're being followed up at least how ever many times a year you're getting those.  If you're getting alot of headaches, you need to have something from your doctor and or (preferably) a neurologist attesting to what the cause of these headaches are, how debilitating they are and what resolves them.

In this case, Ottawa will want something from your doctor attesting to why you're on meds, how much longer you'll likely be on them, what the prognosis is without them.  The doctor will also have to attest to how long they've known you as a patient.

MM


----------



## zander1976 (14 Apr 2011)

Thank you very much for the information. 

One of the really big problems is that I don't actually have a doctor. They are in short supply here and mine retired 20+ years ago. I went to a walk in clinics and requested the medication and they gave it to me. Paxil is a common medication in middle aged men. 

Nah, I use to get headaches ones a week but like I said I worked 80-100 hours a week for 3-4 months straight drinking nothing but coffee. Believe me at the end of that you would be highly dehydrated and have a headache as well. If I was outside I might put on my sunglasses but that is as bad as it gets and drinking water resolved the issue. I haven't gotten them since I started working 40-60 hours a week. 

Do they consider an anxiety disorders a disease? I produce more adrenalin then the average person but that is a physical problem? Paxil is used to treat many things but not all of them are depression. Actually, Zyban the medication used to quit smoking is an anti-depressant as well to give you an idea.

Thanks again,


----------



## infantryian (14 Apr 2011)

Please bear with the long response, but I tried to give some good heartfelt advice. Please take it into consideration.


First thing is first. It does not matter if you apply for an IT position, cook, logistics, or infantry. You need to reach a certain medical standard to comply with the universality of service.

There have been a few threads that you have talked about this or similar issues so I will give you some advice. You mentioned you have been going to a drop in clinic with no single general physician that you would describe as your doctor. I would recommend you find one. You can contact your local health region and they usually will have a list of doctors that are currently taking patients. You need someone you can follow up with and discuss your medications and your dosages with rather than someone whom you've never met just checking a file.

If you feel like you are ready to be taken off the medication, you need to be very careful. Caution is necessary with any medication that alters the chemistry of the brain. There is a slow reduction regiment that must be followed in order to help your brain become functional without the medication because a dependence does occur with time. You need to discuss this with a doctor in order to get you on a routine to decrease your dosage. If you at any point have the gut reaction that you need this medication to continue a little longer because you are having anxiety attacks or depressive feelings, please trust that instinct and speak with your doctor. It may delay or stop the dose decreasing, but at least you are healthy.

If you have a good family doctor and he/she has guided you to a medication free lifestyle and you have been healthy for a couple years please apply again. My application process was long, slow, and frustrating, but anything is possible. The forces are not going anywhere.

There is nothing wrong with having a medical history that is a hurdle to joining the forces. There is nothing to be ashamed or embarrassed about having to take psychiatric medication. That being said, the Canadian Forces is not discriminating against you. The military provides a very stressful lifestyle and they need to be certain that you are in medical shape enough to fight and remain strong. You may be perfectly comfortable living your life now, but when someone is gasping for air at the end of your bayonet are you 100% sure you will not have another panic attack? I know I stated this in the last thread that you started, but there are plenty of ways to serve this country. Not just the army.

Thank you for bearing with me, 

Ian


----------



## ModlrMike (14 Apr 2011)

zander1976 said:
			
		

> I read somewhere that the Canadian Military doesn't discriminate against you if you have a disease but I can't find the link again.
> 
> Thanks again,



Everyone who applies has to meet the Common Enrollment Standard. There's no question of discrimination here.


----------



## zander1976 (14 Apr 2011)

Hey, 

Thanks for the lengthy post. It was helpful. Unfortunately, there is a 6 year waiting period before getting a doctor here, assuming that hasn't gotten worse since a few doctors quit. I take the medication for a social problem. I have a phobia of speeches (random I know ). I was a lifeguard and was often first on scene when major accidents happened close by as well. I have been able to remain calm without medication while dealing with all of that. 

Thanks


----------



## lethalLemon (14 Apr 2011)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Everyone who applies has to meet the Common Enrollment Standard. There's no question of discrimination here.



And so, zander, that means if your condition(s) are classified under the "do not enroll list" (not a real list by the way) - that means *EVERYONE*, not just yourself - will be told they cannot enroll. Hell, the first time I tried to get into the Reserves when I was 17, I was turned down because I was on a hydromorphone for 3 weeks for a shoulder injury that occurred from a high school football game. Their reasoning was that if I were to continue to take the medication for the pain, I could become addicted to the hydromorphone and could potentially become a burden to the CF (hydromorphones are a very powerful and HIGHLY addictive pain killer), which is reasonable. Doctor told me I couldn't play as Tight End anymore, Coach told me to get lost... the pain went away on schedule; I was quite irate but, I just got caught up in graduating and all that jazz and didn't re-apply.

TRUST ME, you're not the only one who's been turned away for what may seem like a stupid reason, look at it from the bigger picture. You are *not* the only one.

I too have performance anxiety - as did my father - he and I both had to be heavily medicated and a little coaching or we'd never leave the house let alone give a speech. My father still takes it (unfortunately it came as a result when his knees became shot and was released from the CF... that depression of no longer having that regimental family sure hit him hard), however I haven't touched it for eons. I found the best way to overcome it, therapy, coaching AND to get out and do more public speaking. Give it a try if you can, it won't be easy at first (it never is) but it'll just get easier the more you do it.

*Edit: Added more response*


----------



## zander1976 (14 Apr 2011)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Everyone who applies has to meet the Common Enrollment Standard. There's no question of discrimination here.



Yeah, I removed that statement since it didn't accurately reflect what I meant but that did bring up a question. What exactly is the common enrollment standard when it comes to medication and diseases. I haven't been able to find anything regarding what medication is acceptable. They state somewhere on the website that diseases don't matter. If someone has an overactive adrenalin gland then I would guess that is a physical disease and not a depression problem at all. I guess its all in how they look at it. 

When it comes to follow ups does it matter how long apart your follow ups are? I mean obviously if I needed to see a doctor ones a week it would be very impractical for me to join but if I see a doctor once a year then thats about as often as I should go see a doctor anyway. I get my medication in 3 month chunks, do you need to go away longer then that without access to a pharmacy or mail? 

Thanks again everybody, I guess I have one shot left so I want to make it count.
Ben


----------



## FutureQYR (14 Apr 2011)

From what I was told, being on anti-depressents/anxiety medication at the time of application IS a problem.

That being said, I myself was on anti-deppressents until about a year or two before I joined, and after getting my family doctor to fillout a sheet with some details, and a short note essentially saying he felt I was in his opinion mentally fit for service, was accepted.

The more I think about it, I really faced a lot of barriers getting into the forces myself: 
- Severe allergy to eggs I had to prove was over
- Childhood athsma I had to overcome
- I was on anti-deppresents as a child (Probably from 11 - 14yrs old)
- Problems with my right knee
- Gingervitis  ;D

You have some obstacle to overcome for sure, but keep a good attitude and at the end of the day, the only people who can give you an indeffinite answer about anything specific to your situation is...you guessed it, the recruitment center!


----------



## medicineman (14 Apr 2011)

Zander,

The Canadian Military does and is allowed to, by rule of law, discriminate based on physical or mental ailment or disability.  As I said before, there is a Common Enrollment Medical Standard ALL must meet.  If you are on medication for anxiety or depression, you don't meet that standard and won't until you're off the medication and stable off of it for a period of time (6-12 months last I heard). 

As Sapperian said, try to find a doctor and stick with them - it'll not only help your application later, but also help you deal better with your health issues to see the same person, as you won't have to explain your whole history everytime you see a new doc.  I'd also be leary of anyone that prescribes a year's worth of psychotropic medication with absolutely no follow up required on your part - but I'm weird that way.

Sapperian - I'm actually in the CF, actually a medical practitionner and I've worked in CFRC medical sections doing medicals on recruits.  Just because you've been a patient doesn't give you license to comment on someone's medication dosages or speculate to strength or appropriateness and it certainly doesn't give you license to give medical advice on the internet - something we most certainly don't condone on this site.  Give some generalities about your experience getting through the system, fine, but other than telling someone to see their doctor and have them deal with their problems, you shouldn't venture outside your lane.

Good luck to both of you.

MM

Modified some spelling.


----------



## zander1976 (14 Apr 2011)

lethalLemon said:
			
		

> I too have performance anxiety - as did my father - he and I both had to be heavily medicated and a little coaching or we'd never leave the house let alone give a speech. My father still takes it (unfortunately it came as a result when his knees became shot and was released from the CF... that depression of no longer having that regimental family sure hit him hard), however I haven't touched it for eons. I found the best way to overcome it, therapy, coaching AND to get out and do more public speaking. Give it a try if you can, it won't be easy at first (it never is) but it'll just get easier the more you do it.
> 
> *Edit: Added more response*



Thanks, I was thinking about that actually. I signed up for classes where I will need to do presentations and I have been spending time meditating preparing to be calm and relaxed during the process. Somedays, I feel like chickening out but I will keep this in mind.


----------



## infantryian (14 Apr 2011)

MedicineMan

I thought I had made it clear that a doctor's advice should be sought and that is what I recommended. However, upon review I see how what I said could have been taken and removed the inflammatory portions of my post.

If you feel that more should be removed, please PM me and I will do so.


----------



## zander1976 (14 Apr 2011)

Hey Everybody. 

Again thanks a lot for all the help. I have always been a jumpy person, which is kind of funny since I am an adrenaline junkie. I will explain all of this and see what they say. It would be great if I could just get an adrenaline blocker then I would be set. 

Ben


----------



## zander1976 (14 Apr 2011)

Yeah, i didn't take any of this post as medical advice. I saw a detailed warning to consult a doctor before doing anything. 

Great advice from everybody. 
Thanks


----------



## WonderGirl (14 Apr 2011)

You need to imagine that you are posted somewhere and you won't have access to your medicine.  How will you function/survive without access to your medicine?  You could be posted for extended periods of time under great duress and stress with no access to any doctors.    You have to be clear for a year for a reason.  People will be depending on you for their lives at some point.  You need to be sure of yourself before putting yourself out there.

You have to be off anti-depressants for a year before they will even consider you.   I read /researched that a year ago and then went off the anti-depressants I was on before I even considered applying.   I worked with my doctor who monitored me for that year and I am doing great so I applied when my year off was up as I was functioning at 100%, even under great stress.  Just my experience....


----------



## medicineman (14 Apr 2011)

Sapperian said:
			
		

> MedicineMan
> 
> I thought I had made it clear that a doctor's advice should be sought and that is what I recommended. However, upon review I see how what I said could have been taken and removed the inflammatory portions of my post.
> 
> If you feel that more should be removed, please PM me and I will do so.



Ian,

No worries dude.

Zander, 

Again, good luck in your endeavours...I think once you get things settled off your meds, you'll be fine.  Even if you're using a walk in clinic, try to see the same doc - it'll help things out for you in the long run.  

MM


----------

