# Re: A GOOD LEADER



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"dave newcombe" <davebo@seaside.net>* on *Tue, 14 Mar 2000 22:04:24 -0800*
I agree, Gunner.  I would hasten to add that a good leader makes sure hisor
her‘s charges are taken care of.  That thier sacrifices if required are
not in vain.  Most of they will lead by setting a good example, in all
facets of military life.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gunner" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 8:34 PM
Subject: A GOOD LEADER
I could draw out my CFP 300 or look in wallet and pull out the 10
Principles of Leadership, or even the boring line of "art of influencing
behaviour" however, in the interests of moving to new topics let me take
a stab at.
What makes a good leader to me is a variety of different ideas.  They
are:
a.  I am a firm believer that a good leader is also a good follower.
b.  I believe a leader must be capable of making unpopular but correct
decisions.
c.  A leader must conduct himself morally and ethically not easy in our
value system.
d.  A leader must make time to listen to his subordinates and help them
work problems out not solve them for them.
e.  A leader is respectful of others and more importantly respectful of
others ideas and values.
f.  Finally, a leader must be able to give orders in such a way as his
subordinates believe that the order is coming from him and he is not
simply a mouthpiece for his superiors.
Any comments?
Gunner sends....
I Michael Gough wrote:
>
> What makes a good leader?
>
> comments?
>
> mike
>
> "William J Anderson" wrote:
>
> > on 13/3/00 22:51, my good friend Gunner at randr1@home.com wrote:
> >
> > > Dave, I don‘t want to set you off, but.....
> > >
> > > We can get into a very good debate on whether the Airborne Regiment
> > > should have or should have not been disbanded.  The incidents in
Somalia
> > > were but one factor, why don‘t we talk of burning cars at CFB
Petawawa,
> > > hazing rituals, incidents in Rwanda, the Airborne prima donna
attitude,
> > > the list goes on.  I think the Airbornes time had come with the
> > > operational commitments Canada had at that time CAVALIER, HARMONY AND
> > > MANDOLIN, STABLE/CONSTABLE, etc and Army restructuring that was
> > > occuring at that time...the disbandment really laid the foundation for
> > > the reestablishment of the third Infantry Bn in each Regiment.
> >
> > I still think it was a knee jerk reaction to a lot of bad press and the
> > consequential public outcry for somebody‘s head on a stick. The MND
offered
> > up the Regiment as the sacrificial lamb and it seemed to satisfy the
hords
> > of Canadians with their heads up their asses. No amount of debate will
ever
> > convince the members of the CAR that it was right. Elite troops are
always
> > under a ‘microscope‘ of sorts. I suspect that many soldiers with a
twinge of
> > jealousy heaved a sigh of relief and said ‘good riddence to that
> > swashbuckling lot!‘
> >
> > Were the members of the Regiment a bunch of Prima Donas? I‘d say yes we
> > were. That is how they recruited us, they set us apart that way. We wore
> > different boots maroon berets. We trained different and oft times
harder.
> > When we moved from Edmonton to Petawawa in ‘77 there were lots of
problems.
> > Just the fact that a bunch of new guys were in ‘town‘ trying to show off
how
> > good they were caused no end of headaches. The Comd at the time decided
to
> > open our doors to the press and let them see for themselves that
> > paratroopers merely did things a little different. That was met with
reports
> > of bar brawls and sexual assaults. It was not what the then Comd Col
> > Painchaud had hoped for but we weathered the storm and shared our jump
> > smocks with the rest of the Brigade.
> >
> > Soldiers are a product of society. They simply gather together and are
much
> > more easily scrutinised. The military has rapists, child molesters,
thieves
> > and murders in its ranks. It is a horrifying thought, but then again, so
has
> > Canada in it population. Some get caught and punished and some do not.
> > Should we recruit different? Perhaps. The word ‘coverup‘ is a bothersome
> > word to me and always will be. I have a hard time believing that murder
> > would have been covered up.
> > >
> > > Secondly, I have a very hard time letting your comment that the
"actions
> > > of officers" brought shame to the Airborne Regiment and Canada.  Where
> > > was the Sect Comd?  The Pl WO? The CSM? The RSM?  How many of them
took
> > > their release in the wake of the disbandment?  Here is the
> > > reality...every member of the Airborne Regiment was responsible. Why?
> > > Because none had the guts to admit it was a Regiment out of
> > > control...not the officers, not the Sr NCOs and not the men!  Let the
> > > disbandment of the Airborne Regiment go...and I‘m sorry to say it is
> > > history and will never be resurrected...let it go.
> >
> > It may never be resurected but there are those of us who will never let
it
> > go. Was it a Regiment out of control or was it a Regiment that needed a
tune
> > up? Those are the questions that should be asked and asked often... lest
it
> > happen again. Will a rape or a murder orS god forbidS a bank robbery
lead to
> > another unit‘s demise?
> > >
> > > Lastly, what privledges do officers get that no one else gets? I‘d be
> > > interested to hear what you think they get in relation to the everyone
> > > else?
> >
> > uhm? A salute?
> > >
> > > Gunner sends....
> >
> > arte et marte
> > andy sends:
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"I Michael Gough" <s22617@rmc.ca>* on *Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:48:15 -0500*
These are all great comments, but ROTP barely prepares officer cadets for
leadership as it is set up today.  We are in school all year and this takes up
all of our time.  The only practical leadership training we get is during summer
Phase training and in these cases, we are usually leading our peers who have the
same level of knowledge as us.  When we get out there in the real world i.e.
graduate, we‘re suddenly in charge of a Warrant who‘s been in the Forces for
longer then we‘ve been alive!  Most of us want to be good officers, but the only
chance that we have to practice is when we leave RMC, and suddenly, every
decision counts and people‘s lives are at stake.
These descriptions of leadership are all valid and useful, personally, I read
that cute little ‘10 Principles of Leadership‘ every night before I go to bed,
but that doesn‘t mean that I‘m going to be a good officer.  It takes alot more
and that‘s tough to find here.
mike
dave newcombe wrote:
> I agree, Gunner.  I would hasten to add that a good leader makes sure hisor
> her‘s charges are taken care of.  That thier sacrifices if required are
> not in vain.  Most of they will lead by setting a good example, in all
> facets of military life.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gunner" 
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 8:34 PM
> Subject: A GOOD LEADER
>
> I could draw out my CFP 300 or look in wallet and pull out the 10
> Principles of Leadership, or even the boring line of "art of influencing
> behaviour" however, in the interests of moving to new topics let me take
> a stab at.
>
> What makes a good leader to me is a variety of different ideas.  They
> are:
> a.  I am a firm believer that a good leader is also a good follower.
> b.  I believe a leader must be capable of making unpopular but correct
> decisions.
> c.  A leader must conduct himself morally and ethically not easy in our
> value system.
> d.  A leader must make time to listen to his subordinates and help them
> work problems out not solve them for them.
> e.  A leader is respectful of others and more importantly respectful of
> others ideas and values.
> f.  Finally, a leader must be able to give orders in such a way as his
> subordinates believe that the order is coming from him and he is not
> simply a mouthpiece for his superiors.
>
> Any comments?
>
> Gunner sends....
>
> I Michael Gough wrote:
> >
> > What makes a good leader?
> >
> > comments?
> >
> > mike
> >
> > "William J Anderson" wrote:
> >
> > > on 13/3/00 22:51, my good friend Gunner at randr1@home.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dave, I don‘t want to set you off, but.....
> > > >
> > > > We can get into a very good debate on whether the Airborne Regiment
> > > > should have or should have not been disbanded.  The incidents in
> Somalia
> > > > were but one factor, why don‘t we talk of burning cars at CFB
> Petawawa,
> > > > hazing rituals, incidents in Rwanda, the Airborne prima donna
> attitude,
> > > > the list goes on.  I think the Airbornes time had come with the
> > > > operational commitments Canada had at that time CAVALIER, HARMONY AND
> > > > MANDOLIN, STABLE/CONSTABLE, etc and Army restructuring that was
> > > > occuring at that time...the disbandment really laid the foundation for
> > > > the reestablishment of the third Infantry Bn in each Regiment.
> > >
> > > I still think it was a knee jerk reaction to a lot of bad press and the
> > > consequential public outcry for somebody‘s head on a stick. The MND
> offered
> > > up the Regiment as the sacrificial lamb and it seemed to satisfy the
> hords
> > > of Canadians with their heads up their asses. No amount of debate will
> ever
> > > convince the members of the CAR that it was right. Elite troops are
> always
> > > under a ‘microscope‘ of sorts. I suspect that many soldiers with a
> twinge of
> > > jealousy heaved a sigh of relief and said ‘good riddence to that
> > > swashbuckling lot!‘
> > >
> > > Were the members of the Regiment a bunch of Prima Donas? I‘d say yes we
> > > were. That is how they recruited us, they set us apart that way. We wore
> > > different boots maroon berets. We trained different and oft times
> harder.
> > > When we moved from Edmonton to Petawawa in ‘77 there were lots of
> problems.
> > > Just the fact that a bunch of new guys were in ‘town‘ trying to show off
> how
> > > good they were caused no end of headaches. The Comd at the time decided
> to
> > > open our doors to the press and let them see for themselves that
> > > paratroopers merely did things a little different. That was met with
> reports
> > > of bar brawls and sexual assaults. It was not what the then Comd Col
> > > Painchaud had hoped for but we weathered the storm and shared our jump
> > > smocks with the rest of the Brigade.
> > >
> > > Soldiers are a product of society. They simply gather together and are
> much
> > > more easily scrutinised. The military has rapists, child molesters,
> thieves
> > > and murders in its ranks. It is a horrifying thought, but then again, so
> has
> > > Canada in it population. Some get caught and punished and some do not.
> > > Should we recruit different? Perhaps. The word ‘coverup‘ is a bothersome
> > > word to me and always will be. I have a hard time believing that murder
> > > would have been covered up.
> > > >
> > > > Secondly, I have a very hard time letting your comment that the
> "actions
> > > > of officers" brought shame to the Airborne Regiment and Canada.  Where
> > > > was the Sect Comd?  The Pl WO? The CSM? The RSM?  How many of them
> took
> > > > their release in the wake of the disbandment?  Here is the
> > > > reality...every member of the Airborne Regiment was responsible. Why?
> > > > Because none had the guts to admit it was a Regiment out of
> > > > control...not the officers, not the Sr NCOs and not the men!  Let the
> > > > disbandment of the Airborne Regiment go...and I‘m sorry to say it is
> > > > history and will never be resurrected...let it go.
> > >
> > > It may never be resurected but there are those of us who will never let
> it
> > > go. Was it a Regiment out of control or was it a Regiment that needed a
> tune
> > > up? Those are the questions that should be asked and asked often... lest
> it
> > > happen again. Will a rape or a murder orS god forbidS a bank robbery
> lead to
> > > another unit‘s demise?
> > > >
> > > > Lastly, what privledges do officers get that no one else gets? I‘d be
> > > > interested to hear what you think they get in relation to the everyone
> > > > else?
> > >
> > > uhm? A salute?
> > > >
> > > > Gunner sends....
> > >
> > > arte et marte
> > > andy sends:
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > message body.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Gunner <randr1@home.com>* on *Wed, 15 Mar 2000 21:34:41 -0700*
You know I was re-reading my comments and I forgot one of the most basic
formulas for being a good leader...firm, fair and friendly.  Noone can
go wrong with this combination. I caution you to watch the friendly
part, I think a better term is approachable.
I Michael Gough wrote:
> 
> These are all great comments, but ROTP barely prepares officer cadets for
> leadership as it is set up today.  We are in school all year and this takes up
> all of our time.  The only practical leadership training we get is during summer
> Phase training and in these cases, we are usually leading our peers who have the
> same level of knowledge as us.  When we get out there in the real world i.e.
> graduate, we‘re suddenly in charge of a Warrant who‘s been in the Forces for
> longer then we‘ve been alive!  Most of us want to be good officers, but the only
> chance that we have to practice is when we leave RMC, and suddenly, every
> decision counts and people‘s lives are at stake.
> 
> These descriptions of leadership are all valid and useful, personally, I read
> that cute little ‘10 Principles of Leadership‘ every night before I go to bed,
> but that doesn‘t mean that I‘m going to be a good officer.  It takes alot more
> and that‘s tough to find here.
> 
> mike
> 
> dave newcombe wrote:
> 
> > I agree, Gunner.  I would hasten to add that a good leader makes sure hisor
> > her‘s charges are taken care of.  That thier sacrifices if required are
> > not in vain.  Most of they will lead by setting a good example, in all
> > facets of military life.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Gunner" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 8:34 PM
> > Subject: A GOOD LEADER
> >
> > I could draw out my CFP 300 or look in wallet and pull out the 10
> > Principles of Leadership, or even the boring line of "art of influencing
> > behaviour" however, in the interests of moving to new topics let me take
> > a stab at.
> >
> > What makes a good leader to me is a variety of different ideas.  They
> > are:
> > a.  I am a firm believer that a good leader is also a good follower.
> > b.  I believe a leader must be capable of making unpopular but correct
> > decisions.
> > c.  A leader must conduct himself morally and ethically not easy in our
> > value system.
> > d.  A leader must make time to listen to his subordinates and help them
> > work problems out not solve them for them.
> > e.  A leader is respectful of others and more importantly respectful of
> > others ideas and values.
> > f.  Finally, a leader must be able to give orders in such a way as his
> > subordinates believe that the order is coming from him and he is not
> > simply a mouthpiece for his superiors.
> >
> > Any comments?
> >
> > Gunner sends....
> >
> > I Michael Gough wrote:
> > >
> > > What makes a good leader?
> > >
> > > comments?
> > >
> > > mike
> > >
> > > "William J Anderson" wrote:
> > >
> > > > on 13/3/00 22:51, my good friend Gunner at randr1@home.com wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Dave, I don‘t want to set you off, but.....
> > > > >
> > > > > We can get into a very good debate on whether the Airborne Regiment
> > > > > should have or should have not been disbanded.  The incidents in
> > Somalia
> > > > > were but one factor, why don‘t we talk of burning cars at CFB
> > Petawawa,
> > > > > hazing rituals, incidents in Rwanda, the Airborne prima donna
> > attitude,
> > > > > the list goes on.  I think the Airbornes time had come with the
> > > > > operational commitments Canada had at that time CAVALIER, HARMONY AND
> > > > > MANDOLIN, STABLE/CONSTABLE, etc and Army restructuring that was
> > > > > occuring at that time...the disbandment really laid the foundation for
> > > > > the reestablishment of the third Infantry Bn in each Regiment.
> > > >
> > > > I still think it was a knee jerk reaction to a lot of bad press and the
> > > > consequential public outcry for somebody‘s head on a stick. The MND
> > offered
> > > > up the Regiment as the sacrificial lamb and it seemed to satisfy the
> > hords
> > > > of Canadians with their heads up their asses. No amount of debate will
> > ever
> > > > convince the members of the CAR that it was right. Elite troops are
> > always
> > > > under a ‘microscope‘ of sorts. I suspect that many soldiers with a
> > twinge of
> > > > jealousy heaved a sigh of relief and said ‘good riddence to that
> > > > swashbuckling lot!‘
> > > >
> > > > Were the members of the Regiment a bunch of Prima Donas? I‘d say yes we
> > > > were. That is how they recruited us, they set us apart that way. We wore
> > > > different boots maroon berets. We trained different and oft times
> > harder.
> > > > When we moved from Edmonton to Petawawa in ‘77 there were lots of
> > problems.
> > > > Just the fact that a bunch of new guys were in ‘town‘ trying to show off
> > how
> > > > good they were caused no end of headaches. The Comd at the time decided
> > to
> > > > open our doors to the press and let them see for themselves that
> > > > paratroopers merely did things a little different. That was met with
> > reports
> > > > of bar brawls and sexual assaults. It was not what the then Comd Col
> > > > Painchaud had hoped for but we weathered the storm and shared our jump
> > > > smocks with the rest of the Brigade.
> > > >
> > > > Soldiers are a product of society. They simply gather together and are
> > much
> > > > more easily scrutinised. The military has rapists, child molesters,
> > thieves
> > > > and murders in its ranks. It is a horrifying thought, but then again, so
> > has
> > > > Canada in it population. Some get caught and punished and some do not.
> > > > Should we recruit different? Perhaps. The word ‘coverup‘ is a bothersome
> > > > word to me and always will be. I have a hard time believing that murder
> > > > would have been covered up.
> > > > >
> > > > > Secondly, I have a very hard time letting your comment that the
> > "actions
> > > > > of officers" brought shame to the Airborne Regiment and Canada.  Where
> > > > > was the Sect Comd?  The Pl WO? The CSM? The RSM?  How many of them
> > took
> > > > > their release in the wake of the disbandment?  Here is the
> > > > > reality...every member of the Airborne Regiment was responsible. Why?
> > > > > Because none had the guts to admit it was a Regiment out of
> > > > > control...not the officers, not the Sr NCOs and not the men!  Let the
> > > > > disbandment of the Airborne Regiment go...and I‘m sorry to say it is
> > > > > history and will never be resurrected...let it go.
> > > >
> > > > It may never be resurected but there are those of us who will never let
> > it
> > > > go. Was it a Regiment out of control or was it a Regiment that needed a
> > tune
> > > > up? Those are the questions that should be asked and asked often... lest
> > it
> > > > happen again. Will a rape or a murder orS god forbidS a bank robbery
> > lead to
> > > > another unit‘s demise?
> > > > >
> > > > > Lastly, what privledges do officers get that no one else gets? I‘d be
> > > > > interested to hear what you think they get in relation to the everyone
> > > > > else?
> > > >
> > > > uhm? A salute?
> > > > >
> > > > > Gunner sends....
> > > >
> > > > arte et marte
> > > > andy sends:
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > message body.
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > message body.
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"William J <andy> Anderson" <aanderson@sk.sympatico.ca>* on *Thu, 16 Mar 2000 08:41:41 -0600*
on 15/3/00 16:48,Michael Gough at s22617@rmc.ca wrote:
I would say that your going to make a good officer. You realise your limits
already. When you do get to a unit, there will be Warrant Officers and Snr
NCOs that will glady help you.
> These are all great comments, but ROTP barely prepares officer cadets for
> leadership as it is set up today.  We are in school all year and this takes up
> all of our time.  The only practical leadership training we get is during
> summer
> Phase training and in these cases, we are usually leading our peers who have
> the
> same level of knowledge as us.  When we get out there in the real world i.e.
> graduate, we‘re suddenly in charge of a Warrant who‘s been in the Forces for
> longer then we‘ve been alive!  Most of us want to be good officers, but the
> only
> chance that we have to practice is when we leave RMC, and suddenly, every
> decision counts and people‘s lives are at stake.
> 
> These descriptions of leadership are all valid and useful, personally, I read
> that cute little ‘10 Principles of Leadership‘ every night before I go to bed,
> but that doesn‘t mean that I‘m going to be a good officer.  It takes alot more
> and that‘s tough to find here.
> 
> mike
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"William J <andy> Anderson" <aanderson@sk.sympatico.ca>* on *Thu, 16 Mar 2000 09:16:36 -0600*
on 15/3/00 22:34,  Gunner at randr1@home.com wrote:
> You know I was re-reading my comments and I forgot one of the most basic
> formulas for being a good leader...firm, fair and friendly.  Noone can
> go wrong with this combination. I caution you to watch the friendly
> part, I think a better term is approachable.
"Firm and Fair" period. When leaders try to be friendly the pitfalls are
enormous.
arte et marte 
andy sends:
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"I Michael Gough" <s22617@rmc.ca>* on *Thu, 16 Mar 2000 12:56:39 -0500*
I have a feeling that the senior NCMs make or break a junior officer.  At least
that‘s what I hear from graduates that I‘ve spoken with.
"William J Anderson" wrote:
> on 15/3/00 16:48,Michael Gough at s22617@rmc.ca wrote:
>
> I would say that your going to make a good officer. You realise your limits
> already. When you do get to a unit, there will be Warrant Officers and Snr
> NCOs that will glady help you.
>
> > These are all great comments, but ROTP barely prepares officer cadets for
> > leadership as it is set up today.  We are in school all year and this takes up
> > all of our time.  The only practical leadership training we get is during
> > summer
> > Phase training and in these cases, we are usually leading our peers who have
> > the
> > same level of knowledge as us.  When we get out there in the real world i.e.
> > graduate, we‘re suddenly in charge of a Warrant who‘s been in the Forces for
> > longer then we‘ve been alive!  Most of us want to be good officers, but the
> > only
> > chance that we have to practice is when we leave RMC, and suddenly, every
> > decision counts and people‘s lives are at stake.
> >
> > These descriptions of leadership are all valid and useful, personally, I read
> > that cute little ‘10 Principles of Leadership‘ every night before I go to bed,
> > but that doesn‘t mean that I‘m going to be a good officer.  It takes alot more
> > and that‘s tough to find here.
> >
> > mike
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Scott Lloyd" <elscotto@sprint.ca>* on *Mon, 20 Mar 2000 00:34:12 -0400*
Mike,
  I‘ll glad to see you are on the right track, ROTPincluding RMC has
significant weaknesses.  But you have to make things happen within the frame
work provided.  Use your time not trying to get ahead in the RMC system, but
look for opportunities to work with "Army" things. When you leave there you
all wear the same rank, and there are many things you can learn that can not
be counted on a transcript. A major problem with ROTPRMC grads is they
have 4-5 years in the military and have never met an NCM.  About leading
your peersspeaking only of Phase trg .remember that a WO can give you 25
years or good suggestions, that he‘s seen work. A peer is quite a good
challenge, in that he doesn‘t know much more than you and probably doesn‘t
know his job any better, see what I mean..
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: I Michael Gough 
To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
Date: March 15, 2000 7:59 PM
Subject: Re: A GOOD LEADER
>These are all great comments, but ROTP barely prepares officer cadets for
>leadership as it is set up today.  We are in school all year and this takes
up
>all of our time.  The only practical leadership training we get is during
summer
>Phase training and in these cases, we are usually leading our peers who
have the
>same level of knowledge as us.  When we get out there in the real world
i.e.
>graduate, we‘re suddenly in charge of a Warrant who‘s been in the Forces
for
>longer then we‘ve been alive!  Most of us want to be good officers, but the
only
>chance that we have to practice is when we leave RMC, and suddenly, every
>decision counts and people‘s lives are at stake.
>
>These descriptions of leadership are all valid and useful, personally, I
read
>that cute little ‘10 Principles of Leadership‘ every night before I go to
bed,
>but that doesn‘t mean that I‘m going to be a good officer.  It takes alot
more
>and that‘s tough to find here.
>
>mike
>
>dave newcombe wrote:
>
>> I agree, Gunner.  I would hasten to add that a good leader makes sure
hisor
>> her‘s charges are taken care of.  That thier sacrifices if required
are
>> not in vain.  Most of they will lead by setting a good example, in all
>> facets of military life.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Gunner" 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 8:34 PM
>> Subject: A GOOD LEADER
>>
>> I could draw out my CFP 300 or look in wallet and pull out the 10
>> Principles of Leadership, or even the boring line of "art of influencing
>> behaviour" however, in the interests of moving to new topics let me take
>> a stab at.
>>
>> What makes a good leader to me is a variety of different ideas.  They
>> are:
>> a.  I am a firm believer that a good leader is also a good follower.
>> b.  I believe a leader must be capable of making unpopular but correct
>> decisions.
>> c.  A leader must conduct himself morally and ethically not easy in our
>> value system.
>> d.  A leader must make time to listen to his subordinates and help them
>> work problems out not solve them for them.
>> e.  A leader is respectful of others and more importantly respectful of
>> others ideas and values.
>> f.  Finally, a leader must be able to give orders in such a way as his
>> subordinates believe that the order is coming from him and he is not
>> simply a mouthpiece for his superiors.
>>
>> Any comments?
>>
>> Gunner sends....
>>
>> I Michael Gough wrote:
>> >
>> > What makes a good leader?
>> >
>> > comments?
>> >
>> > mike
>> >
>> > "William J Anderson" wrote:
>> >
>> > > on 13/3/00 22:51, my good friend Gunner at randr1@home.com wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Dave, I don‘t want to set you off, but.....
>> > > >
>> > > > We can get into a very good debate on whether the Airborne Regiment
>> > > > should have or should have not been disbanded.  The incidents in
>> Somalia
>> > > > were but one factor, why don‘t we talk of burning cars at CFB
>> Petawawa,
>> > > > hazing rituals, incidents in Rwanda, the Airborne prima donna
>> attitude,
>> > > > the list goes on.  I think the Airbornes time had come with the
>> > > > operational commitments Canada had at that time CAVALIER, HARMONY
AND
>> > > > MANDOLIN, STABLE/CONSTABLE, etc and Army restructuring that was
>> > > > occuring at that time...the disbandment really laid the foundation
for
>> > > > the reestablishment of the third Infantry Bn in each Regiment.
>> > >
>> > > I still think it was a knee jerk reaction to a lot of bad press and
the
>> > > consequential public outcry for somebody‘s head on a stick. The MND
>> offered
>> > > up the Regiment as the sacrificial lamb and it seemed to satisfy the
>> hords
>> > > of Canadians with their heads up their asses. No amount of debate
will
>> ever
>> > > convince the members of the CAR that it was right. Elite troops are
>> always
>> > > under a ‘microscope‘ of sorts. I suspect that many soldiers with a
>> twinge of
>> > > jealousy heaved a sigh of relief and said ‘good riddence to that
>> > > swashbuckling lot!‘
>> > >
>> > > Were the members of the Regiment a bunch of Prima Donas? I‘d say yes
we
>> > > were. That is how they recruited us, they set us apart that way. We
wore
>> > > different boots maroon berets. We trained different and oft times
>> harder.
>> > > When we moved from Edmonton to Petawawa in ‘77 there were lots of
>> problems.
>> > > Just the fact that a bunch of new guys were in ‘town‘ trying to show
off
>> how
>> > > good they were caused no end of headaches. The Comd at the time
decided
>> to
>> > > open our doors to the press and let them see for themselves that
>> > > paratroopers merely did things a little different. That was met with
>> reports
>> > > of bar brawls and sexual assaults. It was not what the then Comd Col
>> > > Painchaud had hoped for but we weathered the storm and shared our
jump
>> > > smocks with the rest of the Brigade.
>> > >
>> > > Soldiers are a product of society. They simply gather together and
are
>> much
>> > > more easily scrutinised. The military has rapists, child molesters,
>> thieves
>> > > and murders in its ranks. It is a horrifying thought, but then again,
so
>> has
>> > > Canada in it population. Some get caught and punished and some do
not.
>> > > Should we recruit different? Perhaps. The word ‘coverup‘ is a
bothersome
>> > > word to me and always will be. I have a hard time believing that
murder
>> > > would have been covered up.
>> > > >
>> > > > Secondly, I have a very hard time letting your comment that the
>> "actions
>> > > > of officers" brought shame to the Airborne Regiment and Canada.
Where
>> > > > was the Sect Comd?  The Pl WO? The CSM? The RSM?  How many of them
>> took
>> > > > their release in the wake of the disbandment?  Here is the
>> > > > reality...every member of the Airborne Regiment was responsible.
Why?
>> > > > Because none had the guts to admit it was a Regiment out of
>> > > > control...not the officers, not the Sr NCOs and not the men!  Let
the
>> > > > disbandment of the Airborne Regiment go...and I‘m sorry to say it
is
>> > > > history and will never be resurrected...let it go.
>> > >
>> > > It may never be resurected but there are those of us who will never
let
>> it
>> > > go. Was it a Regiment out of control or was it a Regiment that needed
a
>> tune
>> > > up? Those are the questions that should be asked and asked often...
lest
>> it
>> > > happen again. Will a rape or a murder orS god forbidS a bank robbery
>> lead to
>> > > another unit‘s demise?
>> > > >
>> > > > Lastly, what privledges do officers get that no one else gets? I‘d
be
>> > > > interested to hear what you think they get in relation to the
everyone
>> > > > else?
>> > >
>> > > uhm? A salute?
>> > > >
>> > > > Gunner sends....
>> > >
>> > > arte et marte
>> > > andy sends:
>> > >
>> > > --------------------------------------------------------
>> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>> > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>> > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>> > > message body.
>> >
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>> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>> > message body.
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>>
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>
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"I Michael Gough" <s22617@rmc.ca>* on *Mon, 20 Mar 2000 09:44:23 -0500*
Thanks Scott,
It‘s very clear to me that a young officer needs to capitalize on the experience
of the seasoned NCMs under his/her command.  The main problem with this is that
we are exposed to NCMs on phase, but only at the instructor level.  When we
graduate, the tables are turned totally.  I wish that some facet of our training
put us in charge of experienced troops to let us get a feel for what goes on.
That‘s tough to do on your own here.
Mike
Scott Lloyd wrote:
> Mike,
>   I‘ll glad to see you are on the right track, ROTPincluding RMC has
> significant weaknesses.  But you have to make things happen within the frame
> work provided.  Use your time not trying to get ahead in the RMC system, but
> look for opportunities to work with "Army" things. When you leave there you
> all wear the same rank, and there are many things you can learn that can not
> be counted on a transcript. A major problem with ROTPRMC grads is they
> have 4-5 years in the military and have never met an NCM.  About leading
> your peersspeaking only of Phase trg .remember that a WO can give you 25
> years or good suggestions, that he‘s seen work. A peer is quite a good
> challenge, in that he doesn‘t know much more than you and probably doesn‘t
> know his job any better, see what I mean..
> Scott
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Scott Lloyd" <elscotto@sprint.ca>* on *Mon, 20 Mar 2000 17:29:24 -0400*
Mike,
 That problem has been noted before, the only Combat Arm that receives any
Command of "real" soldiers in thier Phase Trg is the Artillery, only my the
nature of the Jobs that they are trained for. or Inf 3 when they loose too
many and have to rely on Pl augmentees. On your Phase Trg 3/4you will have
drivers who will not be your instructors, learn as much from them as you
can. It will be the Cpl, Tpt, Gnr, Pte, Bdrs who will teach you how to be a
soldier, they will be the ones who will show you what they know, you must
let them. The WO and Sgts will teach you to relate to the soldiers. Then you
must teach yourself to become an Officer and a Leader.....the last one is
the hardest...  I have someone who would be good to talk to about NCMs and
Army things...drop me a note at elscotto@sprint.ca and I will give you his
name.....
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: I Michael Gough 
To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
Date: March 20, 2000 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: A GOOD LEADER-for mike
>Thanks Scott,
>It‘s very clear to me that a young officer needs to capitalize on the
experience
>of the seasoned NCMs under his/her command.  The main problem with this is
that
>we are exposed to NCMs on phase, but only at the instructor level.  When we
>graduate, the tables are turned totally.  I wish that some facet of our
training
>put us in charge of experienced troops to let us get a feel for what goes
on.
>That‘s tough to do on your own here.
>Mike
>
>Scott Lloyd wrote:
>
>> Mike,
>>   I‘ll glad to see you are on the right track, ROTPincluding RMC has
>> significant weaknesses.  But you have to make things happen within the
frame
>> work provided.  Use your time not trying to get ahead in the RMC system,
but
>> look for opportunities to work with "Army" things. When you leave there
you
>> all wear the same rank, and there are many things you can learn that can
not
>> be counted on a transcript. A major problem with ROTPRMC grads is they
>> have 4-5 years in the military and have never met an NCM.  About leading
>> your peersspeaking only of Phase trg .remember that a WO can give you
25
>> years or good suggestions, that he‘s seen work. A peer is quite a good
>> challenge, in that he doesn‘t know much more than you and probably
doesn‘t
>> know his job any better, see what I mean..
>> Scott
>
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