# National War Memorial & Tomb of The Unknown Soldier



## Edward Campbell (21 May 2008)

I am starting a new topic, despite the fact that there are others about Maj (Ret’d) Pilon’s outrage over e.g. a youngster urinating on the National War Memorial because I have a question rather than a firm opinion.

Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act, is an interesting piece from today’s _National Post_:

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/story.html?id=528391


> A matter of national respect
> *Former military officer battles to get Canada's Tomb of the Unknown Soldier treated with appropriate dignity*
> 
> Kelly Egan, Canwest News Service
> ...



I’m familiar with a few equivalent sites:

1.	The American one, at Arlington National Cemetery that is, indeed, carefully guarded; 

2.	The Australian one, housed within their National War Memorial that is rather like a war museum; 

3.	The British one, in Westminster Abby;

4.	The French one, in Paris, at the _ Arc de Triomphe_ which is, in many respects, closest to ours; and

5.	The “original,” the Danish one, in the town of Fredericia.

*Now, my question is: what is the proper way to ‘display’ the unknown soldier?*

Each of the five models above use a different method.

In Fredericia, for example, there are ceremonial guards at the gate of the fortress who also “guard” the statue/tomb which is right beside the gate. I don’t know if they are regular or reserve or if yhey are there 24/7 or just on nice days.

My impression is that Canada’s cenotaph (like Singapore’s) and tomb are the most accessible of all that I have seen. Even Hong Kong’s small cenotaph [see picture, below] is more “controlled” by a low chain that is removed only, I think, on a very few _national_ memorial dates. That seems to be sufficient for them.

Maybe we want our cenotaph and tomb to be fully open so that people can get close and reflect, maybe, on the other hand, the “centre” of the complex – the memorial, proper, and the tomb ought to be “controlled” by a small, low fence, and, as I believe is the case in Hong Kong stiff penalties for anyone (local or tourist, young or old) who trespasses. 

My memory, which could be very faulty, is that the tomb in Paris is also controlled only by a low fence and that sentries are only present on special occasions.

We now have daytime (nice days only?) scarlet clad sentries there during the summer – I’m not 100% convinced that’s what we’re after. It seems to me  that if the tomb needs or is “entitled” to a sentry in July it ought to “need” one on a cold January night, too. Do it right, in other words, or don’t do it at all.

I’m interested in members’ opinions.


----------



## davidk (21 May 2008)

There's a thread on this topic here: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/63686.0.html

Personally, I agree, more needs to be done to stop inappropriate behavior on or around the monument. Aside from the two sentries posted during the summer months (rain or shine last year) the only thing holding people back from lying on/around the tomb was a message carved into the marble blocks (and very difficult to read) saying something to the effect of "Please treat this tomb of an unknown soldier with respect." More should be done - but as to what, that's above my pay grade.


----------



## TangoTwoBravo (21 May 2008)

The Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Warsaw is also guarded 24/7 by soldiers.  It is in central Warsaw on the grounds of the old Saxon palace and is thus accessible to the populace but also protected.  I was very impressed with what I saw when visiting there last year.

For what it is worth, I was not comfortable with the moving of our own unknown soldier from his resting place amongst his comrades in France after so many years and placing him in downtown Ottawa. 

T2B


----------



## Edward Campbell (21 May 2008)

Tango2Bravo said:
			
		

> The Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Warsaw is also guarded 24/7 by soldiers.  It is in central Warsaw on the grounds of the old Saxon palace and is thus accessible to the populace but also protected.  I was very impressed with what I saw when visiting there last year.
> 
> For what it is worth, I was not comfortable with the moving of our own unknown soldier from his resting place amongst his comrades in France after so many years and placing him in downtown Ottawa.
> 
> T2B



I had mixed emotions about the move but now that *he* is here (I'm about 99.99% sure about the "he") I think we should actually consider how he is displayed, guarded, honoured and so on.

I also think this is a matter that ought to concern Army.ca members - that place, that tomb and all they represent are closer to us than to most Canadians. The dead were our friends, members of our regimental families - even for those of us who do not have a close, personal tie to those "with no known grave."


----------



## TangoTwoBravo (21 May 2008)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I had mixed emotions about the move but now that *he* is here (I'm about 99.99% sure about the "he") I think we should actually consider how he is displayed, guarded, honoured and so on.
> 
> I also think this is a matter that ought to concern Army.ca members - that place, that tomb and all they represent are closer to us than to most Canadians. The dead were our friends, members of our regimental families - even for those of us who do not have a close, personal tie to those "with no known grave."



Absolutely.  I suppose that nothing can be done about the location, your post merely brought up a sentiment that I have had for some eight years now.  Turning to practical courses of action, even a simple chain barrier as suggested above would probably help.  I would love to see a full 24/7 guard, but I am not sure if we could sustain that.  I suppose that public education like the articles above can also help.


----------



## Shec (21 May 2008)

String that simple chain barrier between several waist-high obelisks upon which the names of those still posted as Missing (and thus "Known Unto God" ) are inscribed ????


----------



## Blackadder1916 (21 May 2008)

Shec said:
			
		

> String that simple chain barrier between several waist-high obelisks upon which the names of those still posted as Missing (and thus "Known Unto God" ) are inscribed ????



A chain barrier around the Tomb would be a simple first step to controlling the offensive behavior of those who do not currently treat it with due respect.  However, to inscribe the names of all those with no known grave would require considerably more surface than could be provided by obelisks as you describe.  It took the surface area of the Vimy Memorial (for those who fell in France), part of the Menin Gate (Belgium), and the Beaumont Hamel Memorial (Newfoundlanders) to inscribe the names of those "missing" on land just from WW1.



			
				E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> *. . . what is the proper way to ‘display’ the unknown soldier?*



I'll expand your question just a bit and ask what should be the aim (or aims) of any proposed enhancements at the Tomb?

Solely for additional security (behaviour control)?
To honour or celebrate our fallen?
To educate or entertain the public?


----------



## geo (21 May 2008)

Now that we have a National Military cemetary in the Ottawa area (Beechwood cemetary) shouldn't the Unknown soldier be moved to where he rightfuly belongs... amongst his comrades in arms?

http://www.dnd.ca/hr/nmc-cmn/engraph/home_e.asp


----------



## RTaylor (21 May 2008)

Should have a small moat around it, like 2-3 feet wide and 1 foot deep and a simple chain fence surrounding it with 3-4 tiers of chains. Nothing people avoid more than getting wet and looking like a goober.

That or pigeons with lasers strapped to them, genetically engineered to attack people dessecrating the tomb.


----------



## geo (22 May 2008)

TR... not pigeons.... Hornets!... Buzzing Hornets...


----------



## Edward Campbell (22 May 2008)

Kelly Egan’s National War Memorial/Tomb of the Unknown Soldier article drew a fairly heavy response in the _Ottawa Citizen_’s letter to the editor page. Here they are, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s _Citizen_:

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/letters/index.html



> Guards at shrine would show our national respect
> 
> The Ottawa Citizen
> 
> ...





> Leave site alone
> 
> The Ottawa Citizen
> 
> ...





> Able to touch it
> 
> The Ottawa Citizen
> 
> ...





> Lend some guards
> 
> The Ottawa Citizen
> 
> ...





> Drape a chain
> 
> The Ottawa Citizen
> 
> ...





> Move to Beechwood
> 
> The Ottawa Citizen
> 
> ...



I’m guessing this is a fair and accurate representation of the range of opinions and that the number of letters published indicates that _The Citizen_ received a lot of them.


----------



## RTaylor (22 May 2008)

I _really_ like the Move to Beechwood idea. It's good that people see the unknown soldier and pay due respect, but placing it in the graveyard will give more scope and depth to what was really sacrificed.


----------



## AJFitzpatrick (27 May 2008)

If one of the goals of the effort put into the repatriation of The Unknown Soldier is education, then that goal is hardly met with a move to Beechwood cemetery. Simply put it is not a destination and there will be very few casual (in the same sense as casual labour, not the opposite of formal) encounters with the tomb.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (27 May 2008)

_My personal opinion_ is that he should stay where he is now (I think he's been moved enough with his removal from the fields in France). Erecting a fence may aid to keep people back and should be a first step (No idea what a good second step will be  :-\)


----------



## NL_engineer (27 May 2008)

Well I hate to say it, but my opinion is the same as NFLD Sapper's.

I like the full time guard Idea, it shows a bit more respect for our fallen then a chain.

Just my 2 cents


----------



## davidk (27 May 2008)

Where would an order to change this come from? Heritage Canada? The CDS himself? Who has the authority to post sentries 24/7?


----------



## geo (27 May 2008)

A pair of guards on duty 24/7/365... we're talking a lot of people... probably reservists... 
Figure that it would take 3 shifts of +/- 4 troops for each day.... should keep something between 20 to 30 people busy year round.....

Hey Mac, got a spare platoon to spare?



> If one of the goals of the effort put into the repatriation of The Unknown Soldier is education, then that goal is hardly met with a move to Beechwood cemetery. Simply put it is not a destination and there will be very few casual (in the same sense as casual labour, not the opposite of formal) encounters with the tomb.



The unknown soldier can do his duty and serve his country just as easily from Beachwood cemetary as our neighbour's does - from his place of honour in Arlington VA...

(We could do a lot to dress up Beachwood)


----------



## davidk (28 May 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> A pair of guards on duty 24/7/365... we're talking a lot of people... probably reservists...
> Figure that it would take 3 shifts of +/- 4 troops for each day.... should keep something between 20 to 30 people busy year round.....
> 
> Hey Mac, got a spare platoon to spare?
> ...



It takes four or five pairs of sentries, plus two NCOs to post sentries, for a 9 to 5 day at the War Memorial with CG. I figure for a 24/7, 365 job, it'd be at least a platoon, not factoring in support staff.

I'd sign up for it in a heartbeat.


----------



## geo (28 May 2008)

As I said..... a platoon... if not the equivalent of an Engineer troop..... 45 souls - support staff incl.

Not too costly in the big picture of things BUT, wouldn't this strip away from troops doing other "military" kinda things....


----------



## Dr Mike (29 May 2008)

I don't want people to get the idea that all I do is take pictures at the Cenotaph...The one's two years ago sparked an international embarrassment. i received e-mail from a fellow dentist in the Netherlands. he asked if I had taken the picture as it was shown in the Dutch papers and on TV. He said "How can they allow this, in the netherlands Canadian War Cemeteries are sacred."   I would have thought that this incident would have triggered a fast and strong response from the Government. from July of 2006 to the following summer i lobbied various Ministries to try to get three things done
1) A Police and / or Military presence  
2) A small tasteful cordon to remind people that the Tomb is not a bench, after all the vaunted Ottawa Tulips have small barriers to keep people off. People should be allowed to place flowers, poppies, touch the tomb with respect. But lounging on the tomb or allowing kids to frolic on it ..are not quite my idea of respect
3) Have an information booth in the summer to tell people what the cenotaph and Tomb represent. 

I was at the Cenotaph today and school kids were being told about it...a nice touch../

last summer a scant 10 days before Canada Day the Ministry of Public Works called to tell me that they had hired security, Pinkertons. i replied "Ah like a sued car lot, you get a proper Military or police presence or last year will seem like a love in" Two days before Canada Day the Governor general's Foot Guard were tasked with mounting a Guard of Honour. And a great job they did...the Troops were proud to be there, it became a tourist attraction and was a success.

But I have seen kids skate boarding on the Peace monument, and apparently they do this at the Cenotaph.
But i did hear unofficially they may have students to act as interpreters of the meaning of the Cenotaph..[/img]


----------



## davidk (29 May 2008)

Dr Mike said:
			
		

> But i did hear unofficially they may have students to act as interpreters of the meaning of the Cenotaph..[/img]



Just so long as it's not the same bunch that work at Rideau Hall...some of the stuff they say is just total blasphemy. While working a sentry shift there, I've heard them say things like: "The GG is Canada's representative to the U.N." and "She takes over if the Queen dies." 

/rant.

Short of a 24-hour military presence, a cordon would probably be the best option.

Maybe some sort of electrified cordon....


----------



## Dr Mike (29 May 2008)

Hmmm, some class time might be in order for sure P)


----------



## Franko (31 May 2008)

Well that picture just pissed me off.

Last year I told a fella to get off the tomb...the question of " Why?" escaped his yick.

After explaining it to him, along with some motivational verbs mixed in, he promptly got off it and left walking briskly.

Get a platoon of troops (with support staff) on Class B there year round.... period.

I'm sure that it can be done, seeing as we can have a slew of 200+ troops lolly gagging around in Wainwright doing OPFOR year round.

Hell, make it a PAT Plt tasking. Remember hearing about troops waiting 3+ months for courses.

But of course, in a couple months time when the cold weather hits, this will all be forgotten until next year when spring arrives and the arguments fly.

Regards


----------



## X-mo-1979 (31 May 2008)

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> Well that picture just pissed me off.
> 
> Last year I told a fella to get off the tomb...the question of " Why?" escaped his yick.
> 
> ...



Agreed.
However I don't think a wide eyed 17 yr old pat platoon Pte with his cornflake would be someone to send down there. 
Maybe even some legion guys who could volunteer to act as interrupters for the site during the summer.

p.s You still sound bitter over wainwrong."I received a lot of valuable realistic training that me and my crew were proud to be a part of sir!"

6 weeks of useless training...

But yeah as you said,give this another month and it will be old news until the weather starts shaping up again in 09.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (31 May 2008)

Am I crazy to think if the opportunity came about to stand sentry for 6 months in the dead of winter or go on tour .... that I'd take the sentry posting?


----------



## Dr Mike (22 Jun 2008)

It has been officially announced that students have been hired as interpreters for the summer. I visited the Cenotaph yesterday and theyw ere doing a great job. They have a program for younger kids , a kind of I spy, and for adults a full explanation of the Cenotaph, hiistory etc. They are enthused and really an asset.It was also interesting to watch the peole to whom they are speaking. And i was rather taken aback when a couple came over and thanked me for persisting in trying to get respect shown for the Cenotaph. That is more than the Government has done.
    i was not looking for anything but it is manners, but that has changed I guess. I was talking to an uncle, helied about his age. ia sked if he was at D-day.."Oh yeah" he said casually,,that is the  type of person who I hung in for. 
     Ao all I would like to see added is a small cordon, to remind people that it is not something to be climbed on, I am not talking about people placing flowers ora  poppie butpeole lounging on the Tomb.


----------



## Neill McKay (23 Jun 2008)

I think any sort of presence would do it: a continuous guard, a private security officer, a Commissionaire, a Parks Canada employee, an interpreter -- it doesn't matter much as long as there's someone there to explain what it's all about and why skateboarding or relieving one's self on it isn't appropriate.

I'd hate to see a fence, though; I think it's important that people be able to get close to monuments like that.  A fence will have an unfortunate effect well beyond just keeping knuckle-draggers off of it.


----------



## Dr Mike (23 Jun 2008)

NEIL  A FENCE IS NOT WHAT i AM SUGGESTING, i THINK A  1 1/2 FOOT HIGH ( .5 METRES FOR PURISTS  ) CORDON, ABOUT 1 FOOT OR LESS FROM THE tOMB... tHIS WOULD ALLOW POEPL TO TOUGH THE TOMB, PLACE FLOWERS, POPPIES ETC...BUT IT WOULD SUGGEST THAT IT IS NOT A BENCH.
i TIRED TO GET PEOPLE TO GO BUY TO HAND OUT PAMPHLETS WHEN THEY SEE PEOPLE SITTING ON IT BUT WITH LITTLE LUCK. I HAD HOPED SOME IN THE LEGION WOULD HAVE VOLUNTEERED...aND NOW THAT i HAVE A BROEK LEG FROM THE HIT AND RUN 6 JUNE, i AM OUT OF THAT LOOP.
   BUT THE GUEARD OF HONOUR AND THE INTERPRETERS ARE A STEP FORWARD....I HOPE THEY PUBLICIZE THIS A BIT AS THE PISSER PHOTO  GOT A LOT OF PLAY INTERNATIONALLY.


----------

