# 291 R? Will it happen?



## Sig_Des (26 Feb 2005)

What are everyone's thoughts on introduction of the Comm Rsrch trade into the Reserves?

Will it happen? Stand up will be soon if signed off on, and how will it affect the Comm Res?

also, how many people in the comm res in different trades do you think will sign up for the OT?


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## OLD F of S (26 Feb 2005)

One of the main problems I see is the security clearance for a Res 291, this is not a 1 or 2
month wait it could take up to a year and will the Res Pers be turned off by the wait.


                       Regards OLD F of S


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## Radop (27 Feb 2005)

OLD F of S said:
			
		

> One of the main problems I see is the security clearance for a Res 291, this is not a 1 or 2
> month wait it could take up to a year and will the Res Pers be turned off by the wait.



I have one guy who has been waiting for 2 years for an update.  I just submitted mine again for update but will have to wait and see.  Last time it took 6 mos.


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## buzgo (27 Feb 2005)

The big problem will be with any of the special clearances. I've been waiting a year or more now, the backlog is huge. Hopefully some R291 won't bump me back down the list!


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## Sig_Des (27 Feb 2005)

I know one thing they're looking at is getting senior NCM 291's to come work in the Comm Res units that will be setting up 291 dets until we can establish some experience in new r291's, think they'red be a lot of people on board for that?


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## 291er (27 Feb 2005)

As far as R291 is concerned, they've already started it.  The first people to be R291ers are ex-Reg Force 291ers, most of whom retired and simply transferred over to the Reserves.  I just simply can't see a need for 291 dets in all the Reserve Comm Sqn's.  The only possible thing they could do is EW, and we don't have nearly the amount of EW equipment necessary to equip all the Sqns.  We could certainly use the people here in Leitrim, but the main thing is getting them trained and cleared.  The 3's package is like 45 weeks, not many reservists can take that kind of time off.  I'm sure they could scale it down but its a lot of material to cover in a short period of time.  My clearance took 6 months, and yes, there is a huge backlog, the priorities are people getting deployed and 291er QL3 students (they need it to complete the second half of the course).  
As far as the senior NCM's coming to work in Comm Res units.......highly highly doubtful.  We don't have that many senior NCM's in the trade to begin with.  Plus in 06/07 approx 25-30% of our trade is due to get out.  And unless a Comm Res unit has a working SCIF or EW equipment, I can't see there being a need for any 291ers there.  I would suspect that if they ever do post 291ers to the Reserve units, it will either be Cpl/MCpl's, or those who have just retired/transferred to the reserves.


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## NCRCrow (27 Feb 2005)

They will make it work at any cost.

Maybe make a total force type unit ie: 1st Air Defence Regiment. (Lanark and Renfrew Scottish) RCA or simply have a res platoon attached to a unit like 2 EW and use there infrastructure.

Agree with security clearances and training. SIGINT trained pers expensive.

It would take a full time commitment on the R291ers Pte, to get there. I could possibly see them on a QL-3 291 (reg) course.

Hopefully some of the older 291ers will join up and pass on there experience.


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## 291er (28 Feb 2005)

Agree with you totally Crow
They have the Res EW Sqn in Kingston that works with 2EW.....maybe they'll expand it out.  I've heard that they made all the ex-215ers there at Res EW now R291ers, but can't verify that the info is correct just yet.  
I personally would like to see a healthy R291 trade, it would definitely take a lot of dedication to become an R291er, but well worth the effort in the long run.  I suspect that a lot of them may want to component transfer to the Regs afterwards.
I could see them putting R291's on a Reg Force course, the only problem being that the courses run at CFSCE are so fluid, there is not a definite set time for the course length, because the start of the second portion depends on the amount of people who have gotten their clearances....in other words, not enough clearances, they'll wait until there are enough.  This can be a sh*tty deal as CFSCE is not exactly the happiest place on Earth  ;D


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## clasper (28 Feb 2005)

I was in Res EW for 5 years in the mid 90's.  In that time, we probably had about a dozen reg force pers "retire" into the reserves and start to parade with us.  Only a couple of them lasted more than a year.  Whatever they were looking for after their time in the regs, they didn't find it with us.  (The ones that did last were huge assets to the squadron.)

Populating a knowledgable core of the R291 trade with ex-reg force pers sounds like a very dubious strategy to me.  There will definitely be some attrition, and it might be to catastrophic levels.  It's pretty hard to hold your core together when more than half of your team walks out.

As for the length of training, experience with POET shows that it is exceedingly difficult to get a reservist on a year long training course.  By necessity, the R291 QL3 will be shorter, more concentrated, and miss many PO's that are on the reg force course.  Reservists in the sigs and int worlds have to focus on smaller parts of the trade to be effective.  R215 concentrates on combat net radio, while their counterparts in the regt play a lot more with microwave, satellite, etc.  R111 similarly ignores many aspects of the trade that 111's have more time to work on.

R291 training will be similarly focused.  If not, the only people in the trade will be reg force retirees, and reservists who wish to work class B for the rest of their career.  This is a very small pool of people to draw on, and I don't think it would make for a healthy trade.


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## buzgo (28 Feb 2005)

I think that the reason alot of ex-291 people didn't stick around is because they had to become R214, and do the training. I was res back in the early - mid 90's and we had a retired 291 guy join our unit, the unit wouldn't make any effort to help him get his 3's written off, he couldn't take time to do the training, so he left. He was pretty switched on too.

The R291 trade will work, because they are not implementing it everywhere. From what I have heard (from someone who was at the briefing at 763) there will be 40 positions at 763 and 80 or so at Res EW (has a new name now? 77 something?) There will also be linguist dets in Vancouver, TO, Halifax and maybe Winnipeg.  Things are starting 1 April, people who are interested (R215) will be interviewed by PSEL officers over the summer. 

Apparently the courses are already worked out, the 3's course will be done in two installments over 2 years. There are enough young university age students who can take the time to do these courses, that it will work. Some people will be able to get equivilancies. For example, the people at Res EW who have all of the various courses, will probably be exempted from having to do the training. 

It will work....


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## Radop (28 Feb 2005)

I think it will work.  They will make the training go over a two year period to ensure reg force compatibility and bring in old 291ers to make it work.

I think it is a good idea.


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## NCRCrow (28 Feb 2005)

2 years in training systems...............that's a awful long time to being doing intensive theory. 

The trend seems lately to have quantity vice quality people. 

I hope they do not lower any standards to fill positions to make it work.


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## buzgo (28 Feb 2005)

I think things are changing with the courses now anyway, the morse code is not so intense anymore, for example..


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## NCRCrow (28 Feb 2005)

Can u imagine a whole unit of R291 GD as everybody awaits trg and the processing of security clearances?

"Let's set up that tent again and again and again"


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## Sig_Des (4 Mar 2005)

> I just simply can't see a need for 291 dets in all the Reserve Comm Sqn's



As far as I know, only 4 or 5 of the Units will have 291 Det's. I know they want to get 40 people in 291 here in the Ottawa Regiment over the next few years. 

a lot of 215's here are considering doing the OT. Even having to go back and do the 3s over 2 summers


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## Radop (4 Mar 2005)

Well it gives them an opertunity for spec pay!!!


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## buzgo (4 Mar 2005)

No spec pay for them.


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## NCRCrow (4 Mar 2005)

don't reserves get equivalent pay and allowances based on MOC?


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## buzgo (4 Mar 2005)

I'm a bit out of the loop as far as res pay issues, its all changed since I was a res. I've got solid info from someone who was at the briefing here in Ottawa and they were told, no spec pay.


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## Radop (5 Mar 2005)

signalsguy said:
			
		

> No spec pay for them.


Res 291ers don't get spec pay?  I know the guys in the regs do.  I would be supprised if they wouldn't give it to reservists.


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## NCRCrow (5 Mar 2005)

is going to be purple w/ reserves augmenting Trinty/Athena/Ships CDSE teams etc.....or just Army CIO??


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## Sig_Des (5 Mar 2005)

I was at the briefing here in Ottawa, and from the top guy in the ComRes, no Spec Pay for R291. The 291 dets will be set up in about 5 units, ResEW and Ottawa being 2 of them, I think Montreal,Vancouver and Halifax being the others. I think the Idea is to Supplement for Reg 291's away on postings


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## buzgo (5 Mar 2005)

The dets in the other cities (other than Ottawa and Kingston) are going to be linguists only AFAIK.


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## 291er (5 Mar 2005)

Crow - I doubt that the reservists will augment the CDSE and SSE dets in Halifax and Victoria, but hey, stranger things have happened...there seems to be plenty of willing people to get posted to either coast though.

Never got the brief on R291, but I would be interested in knowing how they plan to go about keeping the linguist dets...they will have to be natural linguists I would suspect, as most language courses take about 2 years.  It will definitely take some dedicated individuals, because there will be a considerable amount of QL3 training to take, and as we all know, the clearances can take forever.  Personally, I welcome the idea of R291ers augmenting the regs, we seem to be getting more and more deployments these days.  

As for the spec pay issue, it has changed now, we don`t immediately receive spec pay when you receive your Cpl`s, you get your spec pay when you complete your QL5.  Don`t know if they are planning on having the same sort of thing for the reservists.


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## P-Free (5 Mar 2005)

I hear today that they are going to start hiring R291 on April 1st, 2005.


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## Sig_Des (5 Mar 2005)

April First is the Stand-to date. and They will be looking for Natural Linguists, which I think will be a tough one to get, because they said they are looking for first-Gen, and the sec process for SA is long as it is, will probably put off a lot of people.

QL3's will be over a 2 summer period, and I believe they'll try to get the 5's in a Mod so R291's can take it over the year. 6's will be w/ Regs.

They're also setting it up so that you can get an acting corporals after your first summer of QL3, so that people w/ the same TI in a 215 trade won't be getting promoted ahead of you. Sounds like a baby want's their bottle move to me though.


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## Radop (5 Mar 2005)

291er said:
			
		

> As for the spec pay issue, it has changed now, we don`t immediately receive spec pay when you receive your Cpl`s, you get your spec pay when you complete your QL5.



That is how it is with all trades that have a QL 5 unless you are a remuster or have an OJT package.   LCIS is a wierd kettle of fish in that reguards but all other trades work that way unless someone can correct me that they have changed things in the last year (had a lot of time to look these things up in afghanistan, lol)


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## 291er (5 Mar 2005)

As far as I know thats true....but that just came into effect this year for our trade, prior to that, as soon as you got your Cpl`s, you got spec pay.


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## buzgo (6 Mar 2005)

I think that training won't start until 2006. They are screening people starting this summer, April 1 is the earliest that people will be able to 'apply' with the trade actually standing up 1 September.


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## 291er (7 Mar 2005)

I'm sure it will take a while to get the Res QL3 crse going....I can't see them loading any reservists on a reg QL3 because they tend to be very fluid in terms of length, can take 6 months, can take a year.  Hopefully they won't make the Reservists do the morse code portion and adapt the Res 3's to be more EW-based.  Time shall tell....


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## G-Fresh (17 Mar 2005)

291er said:
			
		

> I'm sure it will take a while to get the Res QL3 crse going....I can't see them loading any reservists on a reg QL3 because they tend to be very fluid in terms of length, can take 6 months, can take a year. Hopefully they won't make the Reservists do the morse code portion and adapt the Res 3's to be more EW-based. Time shall tell....



Just had a briefing couple weeks ago, about to get another one in April.  Yes it is going to take a while for the QL3 course to be stood up.  They have taken bits and pieces from the regf course and other EW courses and have a rough idea of what they want to teach.  The course as it stands right now will be more EW based with OSQ courses to follow and be available throughout the year.  The Morse Code portion will not be part of the 3's, it is planned as an OSQ.  should have more info concrete info after Apr and we see how many people have OT'd.


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## PuckChaser (19 Apr 2005)

Just a little heads up from the RESEW end, information from a Jr Cpl.

R291 was supposed to standup on the 15th, it was delayed 2 weeks. We've had 2 briefings from Cmdr CommRes on the subject, both were heavy into selling it. A majority of the positions are in Ottawa and Kingston, with dets in Vancouver, Toronto, Halifax, and I think Winnipeg. The word on spec pay is that when an R291er is deployed on a class C contract in theatre, they will recieve spec pay, otherwise, they will not. A small victory, which could get us full spec pay in the future. As for R215s being forced into R291, that's not happening. People are being asked a lot, and most people in my unit are pretty clear whether they want to transfer or not. My OT request form is in as of now.

For the experience aspect, most of the SnrNCOs at RESEW have been doing the EW thing for 10 or more years. No lack of experience there, albeit its more centered on the tactical applications, rather than the strategic end. 

I see it as a good move, to bring some of us more in line with the job we do. Before, you'd need your R215 training, plus a whole whack of EW courses, some OJT, some at CFSCE to get qualified. Now, its all rolled into 3 summers of training, QL3A (EW), QL3B (SigInt), QL5. 

As someone mentioned before, the real issue is the clearances. It took nearly 2 years for mine, and I still need it upgraded. Apparently CSIS has been warned about an influx shortly, which is why they want people to transfer early, to get the upgrades in process so training can commence in 2006.


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## G-Fresh (5 May 2005)

This R291er thing haunts me everywhere i go, everyone asks about it.  I guess some of the other units haven't been getting the same quality briefs that we have here in Kingston.  In my opinion it is not such a bad thing, it may suck for Res EW in the future b/c 2 EW will be able to get personnel from other units, cutting down on our major job offers, but overall for the COMM Res I think its a good call.  The training isn't going to be detrimental to the troops.  Yes your training will take longer than if you were a Sig Op, but its the same as if you were a Lineman.  Its going to increase the jobs available, and will increase the courses.  

I myself am a SigOp, and will always be a Sig Op.  I have a career in mind and switching trades just doesn't fit into my plans.  As for OTs, I think that as a jr or snr cpl, if you have the time, and are looking for just a continuation of summer employment to pay for school and you want to try something else, then go for it.  If your still early in your career, then this is a good oppurtunuity.  PPL such as myself, who will most likely be moving on to the reg force, or getting our soon, should probably stay where they are and let the ppl that want it or need it fill up the positions.


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## PteCamp (5 May 2005)

We had a bit of a briefing on the R291 trade, and they were looking for people to switch trades.
We were told that if you were to change trades now, you would be able to keep your rank? I know some of our Mcpls were looking into it. Any one else heard about this?

-KaT


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## PuckChaser (5 May 2005)

Yep, you have a year to OT from the standup date (15 Apr I think it was), to keep your current rank, as they need the higher ranks to fill out the structure.


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## EW (9 Jun 2005)

Just a little something to add for those interested in the R291classification.  A board recently stood up for a week to look at the R291, QL3 qualification.  It included experienced 291ers (jr and snr ncms) and their recommendations are heading up the CoC.  So keep the faith, as recently noted in "The Maple Leaf."  The process is moving ahead.

Cheers...


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## armchair_throwaway (28 Mar 2008)

Sorry to bring this old topic back up.

Here's my situation:
I've made up my mind to join the Reserve and will be heading to 744 (Vancouver) next week to ask a few questions and begin the application process. I've looked over the list of jobs on the CF website many many times and have settled on 291. However, from reading this thread, it looks like R291 isn't available in Vancouver. I believe I would like to go into Reg 291 in the distant future, so doing R291 would be a nice chance for me to check out the trade.

My questions:
1) Can I apply to R291 at the 744 Comm Regt? (since the last post was in 2005)
2) If yes, is it just a linguist position (and what does this mean? mentioned by previous posts)
3) If no, which other trade would you recommend keeping in mind that I may do a component transfer into 291 in the future? Considering transferable skills, problems with CTing to diff trades, repeating training, etc.
I have interest in technology and linguistics
4) If R291 is a possibility, would the lvl 3 security clearance I obtain (however long that will take) be transferable when I get to Reg force?


Thanks for your help

Edit to add: I know I can ask my local unit but I want to be prepared if the trade is indeed not available, then I can do more research on other trades.


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## PuckChaser (29 Mar 2008)

1) No, you can only apply to trades that unit has available.
2) R291 is not just a linguist position, however if you have foreign language skills you are a greater assist to the CF and that trade specifically. The details of the position is covered mostly by OPSEC, but the recruiting website should have a decent outline.
3) SigOp would probably have the most direct transferable skills (Signal Theory comes to mind directly), and give you a good set of field skills which most direct-entry 291ers don't get. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but RegF 291ers do SQ while waiting for clearance?)
4) A security clearance is the same whether you're a civvie, a RCMP officer, a Public Servant, or a member of the CF. Expect a 2-3 year wait for Level 3 and higher, since reserves have a lower priority than someone deploying.

Hope that helps!


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## EW (29 Mar 2008)

lucia_engel said:
			
		

> Sorry to bring this old topic back up.
> 
> Here's my situation:
> I've made up my mind to join the Reserve and will be heading to 744 (Vancouver) next week to ask a few questions and begin the application process. I've looked over the list of jobs on the CF website many many times and have settled on 291. However, from reading this thread, it looks like R291 isn't available in Vancouver. I believe I would like to go into Reg 291 in the distant future, so doing R291 would be a nice chance for me to check out the trade.
> ...



1.  No.  772 is the Comm Reserve EW Squadron in Kingston, lots of R291 there; and 763 Comm Regt in Ottawa may have some R291 billets. I very much doubt you'll find something on the west coast.
2.  Unlikely that you would be a linguist, as a R291, unless you already have a language that may be of use to the CF.
3.  If you had to pick one other trade, with the intent of moving to Reg Force 291, it should be as a reserve Int Op.  Otherwise, something technical wouldn't be a bad idea, provided you can do well.
4.  Any security clearance would be transferable within the CF.


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## armchair_throwaway (29 Mar 2008)

Thank you for your advices.

I did a little research here, and it appears Int Ops, even Reserve, aren't usually recruited off the street (expects Combat Arm experience). However, 111 seems to be closely related to 291 so I'll put that as my 1st choice and SigOp 2nd then hope for the best.

During my searches, I found out 6 Int Coy has a Vancouver Det, which is not listed on the CF website (Google did not return any local address or phone number). Does anyone know if it's at the Jericho Garrison as well?


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## EW (29 Mar 2008)

lucia_engel said:
			
		

> Thank you for your advices.
> 
> I did a little research here, and it appears Int Ops, even Reserve, aren't usually recruited off the street (expects Combat Arm experience). However, 111 seems to be closely related to 291 so I'll put that as my 1st choice and SigOp 2nd then hope for the best.
> 
> During my searches, I found out 6 Int Coy has a Vancouver Det, which is not listed on the CF website (Google did not return any local address or phone number). Does anyone know if it's at the Jericho Garrison as well?



The unit is based in Edmonton, but there are detachements in Vancouver and Winnipeg.  Check out http://www.army.dnd.ca/6INTELLIGENCE_COMPANY/   then you can call the number at the bottom, and they should be able to answer your questions.  Failing that, I'm sure if you went down to the local Armouries and asked around, someone can point you in the right direction.


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## medaid (29 Mar 2008)

6 Int Coy Det Vancouver is located a Jericho Garrison. They don't like to take direct entries. Almost everyone there is a Cpl+ only a few Pte(R) or Pte(B) kicking around. Call Jericho Garrison and follow the prompts to 6 Int Coy Det Van's OR and they can help you out from there.


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## sisyphus (2 Apr 2008)

I'm with 744 Comm Reg and I can confirm we do not have R291 available as a trade.


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