# Governor General and the uniform



## Edward Campbell (10 Oct 2010)

An interesting tidbit, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from the _Ottawa Citizen_:

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/sports/likely+wear+uniform/3650722/story.html


> New GG likely won't wear uniform
> *Military's new commander-in-chief takes on 'precious responsibility'*
> 
> 
> ...




Her Majesty does wear uniform on a very few special occasions, like her _official_ birthday but normally, including on Remembrance Sunday, she wears _mufti_.

The GG still has options, I believe, including his own ‘dress uniform:’






But the GG’s own web site says:

_”As Commander-in-Chief of the Canadian Forces, the governor general may, in this capacity, wear the uniform at events.

The Canadian Forces Publication (CFP) which regulates the wear of military uniforms for the Governor General is CFP 265, the Canadian Forces Dress Instructions manual.

The governor general wears a flag/general officer uniform with special flag/general sleeve braid, embellished with the governor general’s badge, and a large embroidered governor general’s badge on the shoulder straps or boards.

A number of Canadian governors general have worn the military uniform including Vincent Massey (1952-59), Georges P. Vanier (1959-1967), Roland Michener (1967-1974), Edward Schreyer (1979-1984), Jeanne Sauvé (1984-1990) Ramon Hnatyshyn (1990-1995) and Michaëlle Jean (2005-2010)._

I think that Massey and Michener normally (always?) wore ‘court dress’ (the GG’s uniform, pictured above) when a ‘uniform’ was necessary but I know, for sure, that Vanier, Schreyer, Sauvé and Jean all wore CF uniforms, now and again.


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## George Wallace (10 Oct 2010)

Perhaps if put into perspective, he will see fit to wear a CF uniform.  He already does wear a "uniform", looking at the photo.  He is wearing a formal suit which in itself is a "uniform".  There are business suits, Tuxedos, Mess Kit, DEUs, etc.; all of which are "uniforms".


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## dapaterson (10 Oct 2010)

He's already out-of-dress on the first day on the job.  Many electrons have been burned on the topic before, but the GG is entitled to the CD - and he's not wearing it in the photo...


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## Blackadder1916 (10 Oct 2010)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> He's already out-of-dress on the first day on the job.  Many electrons have been burned on the topic before, but the GG is entitled to the CD - and he's not wearing it in the photo...



Neither is he wearing insignia of the orders in which he was invested as part of the installation ceremony that finished just before he went outside and inspected the guard as seen in the photo.  The orders, decorations and medals that he is wearing in the photo were all received long before he was selected to become GG.  The Canadian Forces Decoration was not (IIRC) one of the honours presented to him during the installation ceremony when he was also made Chancellor(s) of The Order of Canada (a promotion since he is already a Companion of the order). Order of Military Merit and Order of Merit of the Police Forces.  I don't know the usual protocol for presentation of the CD to Governors-General, but my expectation is it will likely be presented to him by the CDS.  Hopefully, it won't be during a coffee break as was the case when I received mine.

As for individuals on that parade being out of dress . . . it appears that the somewhat rotund Air Force NCM just to the left of the GG does not have his CD court mounted.  Also, while he is not visible in the above photo, the guard commander (a LCdr) was wearing the black leather CF sword belt outside his naval uniform.  I haven't been able to find any photos of that officer but recall it from watching the ceremony on TV.


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## vonGarvin (10 Oct 2010)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> it appears that the somewhat rotound Air Force NCM just to the left of the GG does not have his CD court mounted.



Which is actually more appropriate when one only has a single medal.  As I recall, when one has two or more, they are "court" mounted, so that when one is in the Royal Court, they don't "ding" (from swinging) when you move about.  The fellow with the GCS-SWA to his right is less-correct (though accepted) with his court-mounted single medal.


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## George Wallace (10 Oct 2010)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> As for individuals on that parade being out of dress . . . it appears that the somewhat rotound Air Force NCM just to the left of the GG does not have his CD court mounted.



 ;D

His belt seems to have slipped a bit as well.     ;D


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## George Wallace (10 Oct 2010)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> He's already out-of-dress on the first day on the job.  Many electrons have been burned on the topic before, but the GG is entitled to the CD - and he's not wearing it in the photo...



I noticed this with Michel Jean as well in her first photos.  Then it seemed that she was acquiring a new one every 40 days as the photos appeared in the media of her attending various State and military functions.  I'll accept the precedence that was offered when I first questioned her having the CD, and accept to Blackadder1916's comment as a good probability as well.


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## Blackadder1916 (10 Oct 2010)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Which is actually more appropriate when one only has a single medal.  As I recall, when one has two or more, they are "court" mounted, so that when one is in the Royal Court, they don't "ding" (from swinging) when you move about.  The fellow with the GCS-SWA to his right is less-correct (though accepted) with his court-mounted single medal.



According to A-AD-265-000/AG-001, it appears that it is no longer optional for CF members to keep their gongs "swing mounted".



> METHOD OF MOUNTING AND WEARING
> ORDERS, DECORATIONS AND MEDALS
> 
> 6. General
> ...


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## 392 (10 Oct 2010)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Which is actually more appropriate when one only has a single medal.  As I recall, when one has two or more, they are "court" mounted, so that when one is in the Royal Court, they don't "ding" (from swinging) when you move about.  The fellow with the GCS-SWA to his right is less-correct (though accepted) with his court-mounted single medal.



Negative. Book says medals are to be court mounted:



			
				A-AD-265-000/AG-000 - CF Dress Instructions said:
			
		

> Chapter 4, Para 6c.:
> 
> Mounting. Court mounting shall be used. The length from the top of the medal bar suspender to the bottom edge of the medal shall be 10 cm (4 in.).



Now, I didn't download the latest and greatest copy from the Interweb after the last bout of he-said, she-said WRT medals / decorations, but it is there in the latest version as well. 

Now in saying that, I don't know of many outside the Land Force who actually know this, much less enforce it when only one medal is worn. Picky? Yes. Part of my job, especially as of late - you betcha  

Edit: Beaten by a couple minutes due to double checking...


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## Edward Campbell (10 Oct 2010)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> According to A-AD-265-000/AG-001, it appears that it is no longer optional for CF members to keep their gongs "swing mounted".




Oh, I thought it was _customary_, despite the 'court' not wanting medals and swords to _clank_, for naval types always to wear their medals 'loose.' I'm pretty sure my boss - about 25 years ago - a rear admiral, 'explained' that (old naval custom, etc) to me when I 'suggested' that court mounting looked better - something about junior services, lack of tradition, etc, etc, etc, if I recall, and all delivered at 60 db above the comfort level.


Edit: typo


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## vonGarvin (10 Oct 2010)

Capt. Happy said:
			
		

> Negative. Book says medals are to be court mounted:
> 
> Now, I didn't download the latest and greatest copy from the Interweb after the last bout of he-said, she-said WRT medals / decorations, but it is there in the latest version as well.
> 
> ...



I learned something new today.  

:cheers:


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## Blackadder1916 (10 Oct 2010)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> . . .
> 
> As for individuals on that parade being out of dress . . . it appears that the somewhat rotund Air Force NCM just to the left of the GG does not have his CD court mounted.  Also, while he is not visible in the above photo, the guard commander (a LCdr) was wearing the black leather CF sword belt outside his naval uniform.  I haven't been able to find any photos of that officer but recall it from watching the ceremony on TV.



Have found a photo of the parade commander courtesy of CFSU(Ottawa).





"Parade Commander Lieutenant-Commander Doma, salutes the Governor General at the beginning of the parade."

Judging from the visble sword belt, this officer was also unaware of dress instructions.  Wasn't there at least one Sergeant-Major in the neighbourhood to make sure everybody was properly dressed?


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## Edward Campbell (10 Oct 2010)

He, that guard commander, also buggered up the vice regal salute - half the (visible) people went to the present from the shoulder and the other half from the order. Oh well, it's only NDHQ and no, there are never sergeants major around when they are needed - lots of very senior WOs but no sergeants major.


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## Snakedoc (10 Oct 2010)

The sword belt being worn outside the Navy DEU tunic looks so odd, actually the first time I've ever seen it worn like that despite hearing anecdotes of people doing this from time to time on parade.


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## Blackadder1916 (10 Oct 2010)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> He, that guard commander, also *buggered up* the vice regal salute  . . .



Well, being Navy, it would be traditional for him to be familiar with "buggery".


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## Fishbone Jones (10 Oct 2010)

Do you think we can let him settle into the job before we pick apart every chicken shit item he failed on his first day? None of this is his fault, blame his handlers. :

As for the others on parade, I think you're blowing smoke if you think the Navy and the Air Force are concerned they made a wrong drill movement or can't follow the dress regs.


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## aesop081 (10 Oct 2010)

recceguy said:
			
		

> As for the others on parade, I think you're blowing smoke if you think the Navy and the Air Force are concerned they made a wrong drill movement or can't follow the dress regs.



I will be the first to vote for letting the army handle any and all parades. I won't take it personaly, it just means a few more days a year where i can go flying instead.


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## armyvern (10 Oct 2010)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Which is actually more appropriate when one only has a single medal.  As I recall, when one has two or more, they are "court" mounted, so that when one is in the Royal Court, they don't "ding" (from swinging) when you move about.  The fellow with the GCS-SWA to his right is less-correct (though accepted) with his court-mounted single medal.



Actually, even one is supposed to be court mounted now. That changed with the move to cover the costs with Crown funds. IIRC, I've posted the proper ref from the regs on this site a few years ago now.


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## armyvern (10 Oct 2010)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> I learned something new today.
> 
> :cheers:



Here it is. And, you're memory must be getting bad in your old age - I posted this to the former Captain Scarlet (geez TV, I wonder who that was!!?)  >

Para c.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/54253/post-491844.html#msg491844


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## Fishbone Jones (10 Oct 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I will be the first to vote for letting the army handle any and all parades. I won't take it personaly, it just means a few more days a year where i can go flying instead.



There was a reason, when I was posted to Comox, that every important parade was staffed with remusters from the Army


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## George Wallace (11 Oct 2010)

recceguy said:
			
		

> There was a reason, when I was posted to Comox, that every important parade was staffed with remusters from the Army



Guess that doesn't leave CDN Aviator off the hook.    >

And soon he may land up a Gd Comd.   > >


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## quadrapiper (11 Oct 2010)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> He, that guard commander, also buggered up the vice regal salute - half the (visible) people went to the present from the shoulder and the other half from the order. Oh well, it's only NDHQ and no, there are never sergeants major around when they are needed - lots of very senior WOs but no sergeants major.


Why, oh why, don't we use (maybe just... an RSM from) one of the Guards regiments for this sort of thing?

And the sword-belt with Naval DEU... where does that come from? And why does nobody fix the offending individuals, or at least fire off a MARGEN? Seem to remember seeing this done at at least one other high-profile event; something Naval Centennial in Halifax, with Jean present.


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## XMP (11 Oct 2010)

Sword and sword belt was worn over the jacket by the Navy until about the mid 1950s. Maybe the good  Commander was given an old copy of RCN Dress Regs....
To return to the thread topic, the GG is provided with appropriate DEU and it is his/her decision to wear it.  These are the epaulette slides and the cuff insignia.  Headwear is the General Officers pattern.


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## Lex Parsimoniae (11 Oct 2010)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Which is actually more appropriate when one only has a single medal.  As I recall, when one has two or more, they are "court" mounted, so that when one is in the Royal Court, they don't "ding" (from swinging) when you move about.  The fellow with the GCS-SWA to his right is less-correct (though accepted) with his court-mounted single medal.


FWIW - the CD is now unwearable without court mounting.  The last few that I presented had notches cut out with scissors to mount it in the box.


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## Pusser (12 Oct 2010)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Neither is he wearing insignia of the orders in which he was invested as part of the installation ceremony that finished just before he went outside and inspected the guard as seen in the photo.  The orders, decorations and medals that he is wearing in the photo were all received long before he was selected to become GG.  The Canadian Forces Decoration was not (IIRC) one of the honours presented to him during the installation ceremony when he was also made Chancellor(s) of The Order of Canada (a promotion since he is already a Companion of the order). Order of Military Merit and Order of Merit of the Police Forces.  I don't know the usual protocol for presentation of the CD to Governors-General, but my expectation is it will likely be presented to him by the CDS.  Hopefully, it won't be during a coffee break as was the case when I received mine.
> 
> As for individuals on that parade being out of dress . . . it appears that the somewhat rotund Air Force NCM just to the left of the GG does not have his CD court mounted.  Also, while he is not visible in the above photo, the guard commander (a LCdr) was wearing the black leather CF sword belt outside his naval uniform.  I haven't been able to find any photos of that officer but recall it from watching the ceremony on TV.


\

The Governor General is not wearing a CD because he has not yet been presented it.  The CDS will do that at a later date.  The installation does not include investiture in the other orders (the Order of Military Merit and the Order of Merit for the Police Forces - he was a Companion of the Order of Canada before).  The insignia for those were presented a private audience with Her Majesty a number of weeks ago.  He's not wearing those other orders because he's not wearing a uniform.  In civilian dress, one only wears one neck badge and it is up to the person to decide which one (may depend on the occasion).   If he were wearing an open collared uniform tunic, then he could wear two neck badges.  In a high-collared tunic, he could wear three.  Chancellor's Chains are only worn for specific occasions (e.g. at an Order of Canada investiture).

The naval guard officer should have his knuckles rapped for wearing his sword belt wrong (I saw it too).  Does no one bother to check this stuff anymore?


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## Pusser (12 Oct 2010)

XMP said:
			
		

> Sword and sword belt was worn over the jacket by the Navy until about the mid 1950s. Maybe the good  Commander was given an old copy of RCN Dress Regs....
> To return to the thread topic, the GG is provided with appropriate DEU and it is his/her decision to wear it.  These are the epaulette slides and the cuff insignia.  Headwear is the General Officers pattern.



The Navy used to have two sword belts:  dress and undress.  The Dress sword belt was adorned with gold braid, depending on the rank of the wearer (two gold stripes for junior officers, three for senior officers and oak leaves for flag officers). the undress sword belts were plain black leather.

Dress belts were worn outside the frock coat.  The frock coat fell into disuse during WWII due to expense, was not resurrected after the war and was eventually removed from the orders of dress altogether (probably in the 1950s).  There are examples of both frock coats and dress sword belts on display at the Maritime Command Museum in Halifax.  In fact one frock coat (Admiral Pullen's I believe) had the braid removed during WWII to be used on another uniform because of the scarcity of braid.  The only people left who still wear naval frock coats and dress sword belts are the Royal Family (Prince Charles was married in that rig).

The undress sword belt was always worn under the tunic.  It does not need to be adorned with any fancy gold braid because it's not supposed to be seen.  When the frock coat was discontinued and the regular tunic became the highest order of dress, the practice of wearing the belt under the tunic continued.


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## jranrose (15 Oct 2010)

XMP said:
			
		

> Sword and sword belt was worn over the jacket by the Navy until about the mid 1950s. Maybe the good  Commander was given an old copy of RCN Dress Regs....
> To return to the thread topic, the GG is provided with appropriate DEU and it is his/her decision to wear it.  These are the epaulette slides and the cuff insignia.  Headwear is the General Officers pattern.



XMP,
Excellent photo's of the GG badges! I've been looking for some good photos of them, I even contacted the GG public affairs to get them but so far it's a no go. Nice job!


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