# Future of the FE profession in the CF



## Kramer (18 Sep 2005)

First, a quick disclaimer, just in case.  I'm not making this post to question the value of any person's job or to start some childish pissing contests or to stir the pot.  I'm just looking for ideas and comments that will, hopefully, help me understand the current and future state of the FE profession.

So, having said that, here are the facts as I have observed them (being the keen observer that I am and having too much free time on my hands...).  The FE seat seems to be slowly getting eliminated in both, the civilian and military worlds.  Here are same factual examples:  I've recently had a tour of the C-130 "J" model - no FE and no Nav there.  I've done some work on the new S92 helicopter (a civilian relative of Canada's new MH) - it has no FE for its normal passenger transport mission and it doesn't have one for its occassional SAR mission either (only a SAR tech and a medic, and it does carry a winch for that mission).  In the civilian airline world, the flight deck automation and system integration has pretty much eliminated the FE seat as well, except perhaps for the older machines (e.g. 727's used by cargo companies).

Now, I know that Canada will not be getting the "J" model or anything new like that any time soon and I'm pretty sure that the Cormorant will probably always have the FE position (jumpseat and winch) but, having observed the general trend, I still have to wonder...

The truth is that I'm quite intersted in trying for the FE occupation (I'm currently a reserve Avn Tech) but I do wonder what the job will look like in the next 20 years or so...

On a related note, is any one familiar with the FE job on the Cormorant (with all the "glass" in front of the pilots, I wonder how the FE fits into that...).  And no, even though I'm an Avn Tech I'm not able to just go and talk to FE's after a flight or anything like that - I' m with a "permanently detached" unit that doesn't normally deal with any Canadian a/c's (it's a long confusing story but it does make some sense).

Anyway, looking forward to your ideas/comments.

K.


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## Sf2 (18 Sep 2005)

Here's my take as a griffon pilot.  The FE is critical in many cases.  You said it yourself, the S-92 "transport" missions don't require an FE.  You're probably totally right.  However, we don't do just transport missions.  In the tac hel world, the FE is responsible for a vast array of things, most of which are mission critical (in other words, if he wasn't there, the mission would fail) - for example - 

- during airmobile operations, FE helps with the loading/unloading of troops, ensuring they are secure, along with there equipment
- during night ops, a 3rd set of eyes on NVG's is invaluable
- pilots can't see the tail from their position, having someone to clear it of obstacles, especially in tight confined areas, is a very, very good thing
- minor maintanence/inspections while on the road, instead of having to call for an MRP, as well as aircraft configuration for certain missions (night sun, FLIR, seat removal)
- who the hell is going to shoot the door guns?
- they operate the hoist while the SAR tech is on the line
- monitor the load during slinging operations


That's just in a UTTH role, I wouldn't even begin to imagine during more advanced roles like Special OPS


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## Zoomie (19 Sep 2005)

Kramer,

I believe IMHO that the FE trade will be around for years to come.  Whether or not there will be a spot for them on the flight deck is the question...  There has been talk about what the FE will do in the new FWSAR - as there is no requirement for him/her to be up front.  In the SAR role we self-deploy almost every day and thus need the mechanic SME on board for all phases of the trip - he/she also takes care of all refueling and load managing (as we do not carry Load Masters).  During active SAR the FE is another set of eyes for the SAR Techs and will most likely work with the Nav in the new FWSAR as a SAR version of the AESOP.  (FLIR, RADAR, etc)

Like my Helo breathren said, the FE is invaluable in the chopper world.  The CH-149 Cormorant uses its FE a great deal - he runs the back and backs up the pilots with terrain clearance in landing and take off transitions.


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## SeaKingTacco (19 Sep 2005)

> In the SAR role we self-deploy almost every day and thus need the mechanic SME on board for all phases of the trip - he/she also takes care of all refueling and load managing (as we do not carry Load Masters).  During active SAR the FE is another set of eyes for the SAR Techs and will most likely work with the Nav in the new FWSAR as a SAR version of the AESOP.  (FLIR, RADAR, etc)
> 
> Like my Helo breathren said, the FE is invaluable in the chopper world.  The CH-149 Cormorant uses its FE a great deal - he runs the back and backs up the pilots with terrain clearance in landing and take off transitions.



In the Sea King world, we do all of that with a crew of two pilots, a Nav and an AESOP.  When away from homebase without techs, the pilots do the A/B checks and the Nav and AESOP fuel the aircraft.  All of the back-door work described by short final in the Griffon world are done either by the Nav, the AESOP or both together.

We used to have FEs on Sea Kings at 406 Sqn (the OTU), but got rid of the them because we could not employ them efficiently (I was told).

Basically, different communities view their own crewing needs quite differently.  Probably, there is not one right or wrong answer.


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## TR23 (21 Sep 2005)

Out of curiosity....how long is FE training, and what is involved?


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## Zoomie (22 Sep 2005)

All FE's are ex-AVN/AVS techs - before attending the flying course for their specific aircraft they must also attend the requisite AVN course.  This can take between 6-12 months - followed by the OTU (3-6 months) - followed by a 6 month (approximate) check-out period.

It is this training that makes an FE indispensable to the crew - I don't know how the Sea-King's can deploy anywhere for lunch without one!  Our FE's take SOAP samples, top up engine oil, fix minor engine snags, swap electrical/comm boxes, crawl the intake, top up the hydraulics, etc...  Unless you are qualified to do this (which pilots are not) you are hooped without an FE.  This does not include the myriad of tasks involved in flight and pre/post flight.


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## SeaKingTacco (22 Sep 2005)

> It is this training that makes an FE indispensable to the crew - I don't know how the Sea-King's can deploy anywhere for lunch without one!



You are right in one respect- Sea King crews are not allowed to perform any serious maintenance beyond fueling and A/B checks.  If something goes wrong away from homeplate, we usually will require an MRP.  The thing is - we don't do that sort of thing often enough to warrant carrying FE s on our establishments.  Especially since they would have no operational role with us on a ship.


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## h3tacco (22 Sep 2005)

Obviously a little off topic but to continue what my cohort was saying. Generally the only cross country Sea Kings do are East-West rotations or airshows and in those cases the norm is to carry three techs two AVN and one AVS. Obviously it would be more efficient to have an FE on road trips, which is why I think 406 used to have them, but as previously stated since our normal means of deploying is shipborne we can do usually make do without.


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## Kramer (23 Sep 2005)

Thanks for your comments - pretty interesting stuff.  It sounds too me like the FE role is moving more and more to "the back".  I guess the days of the "classic" FE job of tweaking mixtures, props, throttles, and balancing fuel loads in flight are long gone (along with the classic multi-engine piston heavies...).  It seems I need to do some more heavy thinking about my future goals... :-\


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## Zoomie (23 Sep 2005)

Kramer said:
			
		

> I guess the days of the "classic" FE job of tweaking mixtures, props, throttles, and balancing fuel loads in flight are long gone (along with the classic multi-engine piston heavies...).



No aircraft in the CF has a mixture to tweak - we're all turbines now.  The Herc and Aurora still have heavy FE interaction - fuel balancing and power control (CP-140).  The Buff FE runs the aircraft lighting system, ECS, Flaps and also works hand in hand with the SAR Techs when it comes to open door/ramp operations.  Their's is a very exciting and eventful trade - it takes a bit of work to get there, and it is worth it.


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## Kramer (24 Sep 2005)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> No aircraft in the CF has a mixture to tweak - we're all turbines now.


Hey, I know I'm only a reserve Avn Tech but give me some credit here.  I know there are no piston-powered machines in the CF and, therefore, no mixture controls to play with.  I was referring to, somewhat facetiously, to the _really_  good old days of the classics such as the Argus (two FE's per aircraft, I believe). 


> The Herc and Aurora still have heavy FE interaction - fuel balancing and power control (CP-140).   The Buff FE runs the aircraft lighting system, ECS, Flaps


That's true for the current fleet but the systems you mention are also a perfect example of the areas where flight deck automation is trying to eliminate the "extra" crew positions.  I have some first hand experience of this from my time at Honeywell Aerospace where I worked on control electronics for an ECS system.  One of the very specific design criteria/requirements was that the system would be operated by the two person flight crew only, no FE or SO needed.  The C-130J and the C-27J happen to be very good examples of the results of this new design approach (for better or for worse, but that's a whole new discussion...)



> and also works hand in hand with the SAR Techs when it comes to open door/ramp operations.   Their's is a very exciting and eventful trade - it takes a bit of work to get there, and it is worth it.


I have no doubt that the current FE job in the CF is an important and a worthwhile one.  I'm just a little afraid that if, for example, we get the 130J's or 27J's ten or so years down the road, I will be told to do a compulsory OT to, oh, maybe Avn again...


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## Sf2 (24 Sep 2005)

I suggest you pursue this trade - if you're into the fling wing helo world, there's some quite interesting prosects over the horizon with SOG (special operations group)


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## kj_gully (25 Sep 2005)

There is definitely going to be a requirement in SAR for the forseeable future. Even if god forbid they remove the FE from fix wing sar, The Cormorant relies heavily on the fe, to run emergency checklists, fix the myriad minor snags, weight,balance, Cof G calcs and fuel transfer. Most importantly (to me) he has my life in his hands on the hoist. He is lord of the hot pot, phototech extrodinaire, a strong back for a heavy patient transfer, and much more!!


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## TR23 (25 Sep 2005)

Would the FE that fly on the Cormorants have any training in emergency medicine?  Clearly not to the standard of a SAR Tech, but perhaps some knowledge to help the SAR Techs on the flight back to base?
Or how about a FE in tactical transport...would they have any training in battlefield survival or maybe even SQ?  Incase they either crashed or were attacked at their base....would they have the training to defend themselves adequately?
Thanks, TR23


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