# Requirements for Airforce Pilot



## Stuka 88 (23 Nov 2004)

My question is: Is there any possible way i can get into the RMC for DEO or ROTP after i finish as a Commercial Pilot and gain my license from a College because  my courses in highschool are all college oriented. Or the only way is through University..


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## Inch (23 Nov 2004)

RMC is a university, don't be confused because of the name.

I went through a College aviation program in Sault Ste Marie and was enrolled into the CF under the Community College Entry Plan (Pilot) which is now closed.  Currently, the only way to get into the CF for Pilot is either DEO or RMC under the ROTP program. There are limited slots avail for civilian university under the ROTP program but the majority go to RMC. Sorry, but college isn't going to do you much good anymore unless we start hurting for pilots and at current we're not that bad off.

You could go to college followed by university, but that's an awful lot of money. If you can get into university, I'd say go that route since you'll stand a better chance of getting in as a DEO.

Cheers


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## Stuka 88 (23 Nov 2004)

Thank you for the reply


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## acheo (25 Nov 2004)

Due to the lack of pilots, a recruiter in Chicoutimi confirmed to me in Mar 03 the CCEP (maybe they've changed the program name) was back for students graduating from Chicoutimi College. At that time Seneca College was also trying to come back into the program.

Now if you really wanna go through a flying college I would recommend you talk to a "knowledgeable" recruiter in that matter. They could subsidize you while you are going through Seneca.

University of Toronto is also offering a similar program to the ones offered in flying colleges... at least it was offered a couple years ago. You get your commercial/multi/IFR + a bachelor degree in aviation. That could give you the option to join as a DEO with flying experience.

Good luck!


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## hammond (30 Nov 2004)

Hey everyone, instead of starting a new thread on the same topic I thought I would just bring this one back to life if thats alright with you fine gentlemen.

I've been reading alot on this thread to do with requirements for a pilot in the Canadian Forces, but i have a couple of questions, that if you have time could possibly clear up for me.

I understand that to apply for a Pilot position you must have a degree, I am currently enrolled at the University of Prince Edward Island in the faculty of arts. I was wondering does it matter profoundly what you major in? I am thinking of majoring in Psychology, just because i find it interesting and I think i can survive four years of it.

Another thing, I will be starting ground school in March or April for my Private pilots license(fixed wing, i wanted to fly choppers but the price on the course is insane), will this make me more appealing when i apply for pilot, i'm not getting just because I believe it will make me more appealing, just I love flying.

I also understand you must have 20/20 vision or else you can kiss your chances good bye. About 5 years ago i required glasses just to read, I'm not an optomitrist but i think he said it was just a stigmatism or something.... I can see perfectly fine now, havent ever really used my glasses at all actually. I was wondering should I goto see an optomitrist now to see what my vision is, do they look at past records, or just complete their own?

Thanks for your time, I would really appreciate any help you guys can provide.  -Eric Hammond


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## Bograt (30 Nov 2004)

Eric,

I'll answer the best I can. If I am incorrect I'm sure other will correct me.



			
				Hammond said:
			
		

> I was wondering does it matter profoundly what you major in?


No. My undergrad is a BA. You need to score well on your CFAT, and you have to get through the initial medical, physical and interview. Then you have to get through Air Crew Selection and the medical.



			
				Hammond said:
			
		

> Another thing, I will be starting ground school in March or April for my Private pilots license(fixed wing, i wanted to fly choppers but the price on the course is insane), will this make me more appealing when i apply for pilot, i'm not getting just because I believe it will make me more appealing, just I love flying.



Yes it is better if you have a PPL, and it will increase your chances of getting through ACS.



			
				Hammond said:
			
		

> I also understand you must have 20/20 vision or else you can kiss your chances good bye. About 5 years ago i required glasses just to read, I'm not an optomitrist but i think he said it was just a stigmatism or something.... I can see perfectly fine now, havent ever really used my glasses at all actually. I was wondering should I goto see an optomitrist now to see what my vision is, do they look at past records, or just complete their own?



I had the same thing except I was in high school. My eyes are good to go now though..... You should have no problem.

Good luck.


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## Inch (30 Nov 2004)

Bograt said:
			
		

> Yes it is better if you have a PPL, and it will increase your chances of getting through ACS.



Just a little point of clarification here, it's not mandatory and it certainly doesn't make you a shoe in. All it does is show them that you're serious about flying and you may have an aptitude for it. Keeping in mind I've seen guys fail PFT in Portage and know of guys that failed ACS that had 1000+ hrs of flight time.  While it may help, I'm tending to stick to my guns and say that I've seen guys with zero time get through Moose Jaw and guys with hundreds of hours fail. My opinion is this, keeping in mind that I had 225hrs and a Commercial MIFR license when I started Moose Juice, the hardest thing for me to overcome wasn't the flying ability, it was breaking habits.  Not necessarily bad habits, but non-military habits. The military wants you to fly to the numbers. There's no hard altitudes that you'll fail if you hit, ie 100ft high or low on a commercial flight test. They'll fail you for being 10ft low if you're not correcting to the ideal.  Military flying is very procedural, I know a few people that failed for lack of ability, but I know just as many that failed for not following the set out procedures. 

As for your vision Eric, you'll do an eye exam and full ophthalmologic exam when you apply. If something isn't right, you won't be accepted. Even something as simple as the refractive error (I think that's what it's called).  I had an optometrist tell me I have a minor astigmatism, but the Ophthalmologist didn't say anything about it. So, I wouldn't sweat it or spend money on it just to satisfy your curiosity. The military will want it checked again, even if you get it done the day before you apply.

Hope that helps.

Cheers


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## Zoomie (1 Dec 2004)

Inch said:
			
		

> ophthalmologic



Excellent word!  I don't think I have ever used such a word in a sentence before.

Enjoy your time at Looniversity Eric.  Flying is a blast - getting your PPL or even just a few hours may help you at Aircrew Selection.  Like Inch has alluded to, Military flying is very much different than what you find in the civi-world.

There isn't any real harm in applying early to the CF.  They may even be interested in sponsoring your last couple of years there (ie pay for it).


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## Inch (1 Dec 2004)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> > Quote from: Inch on Yesterday at 21:35:30
> > ophthalmologic
> 
> 
> Excellent word!   I don't think I have ever used such a word in a sentence before.



Thanks dude, I can't lie to you, I had to look it up in the dictionary.  :-[


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## hammond (2 Dec 2004)

Thank you very much for your helpand quick responses. I really appreciate it. You guys are very motivational, I was really worried about the vision thing but after getting my "reading" glasses I used them once or twice, too much of a hassel to carry around. 

ophthalmologic , That word is HUGE, i'll admit Inch when you wiped that bad boy out I was shaking 

Bograt Congradulations on your acceptence

Zoomie, thanks for the information on the sponsership idea, I will definatley be looking into that.

One more question, I understand that you attend Second Language training in Quebec in the process to becoming a pilot, I was wondering is it to qualify you as bilingual? i got up to grade 10 academic french and all i can remember is looking up inpolite phrases like....... Je couche avec ton mere   (i probably spelt all that wrong)

Thanks again for the help.


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## Inch (2 Dec 2004)

The latest I've heard with respect to language school is that pilots are bypassing it to fill the slots in Moose Jaw. That may change in the near future though with the expiration of the flying contract in Portage next spring. So, you may do it, you may not but don't sweat the levels you get, I think you only need a BAB to get get promoted to major. I ended up with ECB (the grading goes A,B,C,E with A being the worse and E being the best. The first letter is reading, 2nd is writing and 3rd is speaking), so I can read and write it quite well, with a little more difficulty speaking it. Some guys didn't even get a grade, they got the almighty X, meaning they suck so bad that they couldn't get an A. So it's really not critical to your career until later, so if you do have to do it, enjoy your time in St Jean/Montreal but don't get too stressed about the language school.

Cheers


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## acheo (4 Dec 2004)

I agree with most of your saying Inch but just a little clarification:

Out of   28 guys 15 were CCEP (Flying college) when I went through Moose Jaw. All of them graduated from 2CFFTS while 10 of   those without previous flying failed. Take 100 guys with experience compared against 100 guys without flight time and do the stats.....*previous experience sure help as long as you keep a low profile in the Jaw*.


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## Inch (4 Dec 2004)

Well put acheo, I think maintaining a low profile is one of the more important things you can do if you have previous experience. A bad attitude or a "well I've always done it this way" attitude will sink you there just as quick as lack of flying ability.

When did you go through the Jaw? 

We had 16 guys on my course (0301), one girl lost her medical due to a previous motorcycle accident and one guy got CT'd for ICHT. Other than that, everybody else passed and I was the only flying college grad.


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## Zoomie (4 Dec 2004)

acheo said:
			
		

> Out of   28 guys 15 were CCEP (Flying college) when I went through Moose Jaw. All of them graduated from 2CFFTS while 10 of   those without previous flying failed.



These statistics seem more in line with the Pass/Fail ratio out of PFT at Portage.  When you refer to 28 students, are you talking about your flight?  We all know that course sizes at NFTC are limited to 16 max...  10 failures is about the yearly average for the entire school, is this what you are trying to say?

Regardless... PFE (previous flying experience) can't hurt too much if you use it wisely - the course is designed for people with zero PFE, so don't despair.


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## Bograt (5 Dec 2004)

I. like so many others before me, am anxious and excited about training. Several of the posts concerning this MOC have talked about failure rates. Is there a "7 Characteristics of Highly Successful People" for folks succeeding through course?

Could you tell who was going to wash out and who was going to succeed? What did those respective people do or not do? Is there such things as study groups etc...?

I want to feel like I have done all I can to prepare for this endeavour. Any help would be appreciated.

I have 71 hours on my PPL.

Cheers,


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## Inch (5 Dec 2004)

Well, I'd say attitude has almost as much to do with it as flying ability. You need to be confident but not cocky, it's a fine line. I think it was HPMA, sorry everyone, but I actually learned something from that course  :-[ , but we learned that there's 3 types of people and when the poop hits the rotating air mover, that's when you see the 3 types in all their glory. In no particular order....Type 1, this type is a doer, when it gets crazy,  these people will react and think on their feet so to speak. This type actually only makes up about 15-20% of the population. The second type are people that are unable to think but will follow directions without hesitation, usually directed by the Type ones. They make up about 30-40% of the population IIRC. The last type are the ones that will freeze, they won't react, they won't follow directions and usually bad things happen. The kind of people that will watch an accident unfold but not do anything to try and prevent it. Sadly, this type makes up about half of the population.

So what I'm getting at is, a pilot must be a type one, you can't panic and you can't freeze, your crew's lives depend on it. It's possible to be a type 2 from my example, but these types wouldn't make a good aircraft captain in my opinion. You have to have confidence in what you know but at the same time you don't want to be so cocky as to ignore good advice from the guys sitting beside you and behind you. The sides of this fine line are: 1. not being confident in your knowledge and always second guessing yourself and 2. being cocky and ignoring what your crew is telling you. 

Hopefully I make a little sense with this post, it's just my thoughts so feel free to add where required.

Another thing I think is important, is your ability to remember facts and figures, things like normal torque ranges, speeds, checks, etc. I haven't flown a Harvard in over a year, yet I still remember that it stalls at 18 AOA and has a Vne of 316 or Mach .67, gear speed is 147. You need to remember red page emergencies verbatim and know them stone cold. 

There's a couple that I think are important, unfortunately, the two I mentioned tend to be natural and not learned.

Cheers


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## revy (5 Feb 2005)

It seems that those people with some prior flight training do better than those with none and those with lots don't necessarily do as well as those with some (bad habits?). What do you think would be the minimum amount of flight training needed prior to aircrew selection? How many hours of flight and ground training would be ideal? I have none...


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## Garbageman (5 Feb 2005)

revy said:
			
		

> It seems that those people with some prior flight training do better than those with none and those with lots don't necessarily do as well as those with some (bad habits?). What do you think would be the minimum amount of flight training needed prior to aircrew selection? How many hours of flight and ground training would be ideal? I have none...



From what I have seen, this is not at all true.  When I went through, 2 out of 8 passed.  1 had his commercial pilot's licence, the other had never even been in an airplane before.


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## Phillman (17 Feb 2005)

How many times are you allowed to do the Aircrew Selection?

If you don't pass the first time, are you allowed to try again? And if so, how long must you wait?


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## Good2Golf (17 Feb 2005)

Phil, I believe ACS is a one-time deal.  Not to say it hasn't happened, but I have not heard of a second try at aircrew selection.  Familiarity with a flying environment is not a bad thing so PPLs, CPLs, ATPL's and -H versions of them would likely assist.  

For those of you still training on your PPL or other license, heed Inch's words about military attitude to flying.  If circuit height is 1350', then fly at 1350'...not 1345' all day, nor 1355'...correct to the numbers -- if you're not at altitude or your airspeed and you are NOT correcting to the numbers, you WILL NOT do well.  Many of us have discussed the real value of a "perfect circuit" during bad weather days, and the general concensus seems to be that it is more a tool to build structure and precision to numbers than anything else...if you can hold to the numbers out of second nature, that allows you to be precise and deal with other issues, nav, mission assessment, comms, data-link, assessing threats, etc...  Of course the numbers thing also applies to the ATPL and ATPLH for the same reason as the mil flying...the less time you spend trying to chase varying altitudes and airspeeds, the more time you will have wondering what the next series of emergencies will be while you're flying your PPC (pilot proficiency check-ride).

Cheers,
Duey


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## carpediem (18 Feb 2005)

When I did AS last fall two of the candidates were doing it for the second time after a failure. In order to be allowed the second chance they had to complete their private pilot licenses.

Duey, I've been enjoying your posts, any further insight into CF pilot trg (and especially how to do well) is appreciated.


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## Good2Golf (18 Feb 2005)

Carpediem, the military is a very social (not in a having tea and crumpets, but in interaction between people way) organization.  During flight training, you will be stronger in numbers bouncing a/c specs and procedures off each other.  Never underestimate what kind of knowledge can creep into your brain when you're concentrating on other things in a study group, etc...  Many guys who know me well joke about the amount of UFI (useless  information) I seem to have accumulated in my travels but all you have to do is use it once, and it's no longer useless.  This was especially true for me in flight training...stuff came to me that must have been discussed in our study groups and was sure helpful later!  

Remember, while guys and gals in flight training can be competitive, the competition should be a constructive one that builds everybody up and maximizes the success of everybody.  Folks shouldn't be necessarily worrying about getting the Top 
Student Award if it comes at the price of making oneself look better than other folks...just be accurate and methodical and use whatever bit of a 'gift' for flying you may have to make it through to Wing's Grad.  Leave the "Maverick - Iceman" thing for later on at the OTU in Cold Lake if you stream on jets...

Cheers,
Duey


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