# Pay Increments for academic qualifications etc



## infant (9 Mar 2012)

I'm looking for "orders or instructions issued by the Chief of the Defence Staff, for academic or other special qualifications considered by the Chief of the Defence Staff to be of military value." as referenced in CBI 204.511(2).c. (below).  It has been mentioned on this board that (for example) a masters degree should bump you up by one pay increment level but that hasn't happened for me, and I would like some written confirmation that it should have been.  

I thought the PLAR database might contain that kind of thing, but it seems to be focussed on exemptions for specific military training.


Ref. 204.511(2) (Qualifying service) Subject to conditions prescribed in orders or instructions issued by the Chief of Defence Staff, qualifying service for pay increments includes

a.subject to paragraph (3), all previous service for an officer or non-commissioned member at the member’s present rank, equivalent rank or any higher rank, including paid acting rank in 
a.the Regular Force and all other permanent armed forces of Her Majesty,
b.any component of the Canadian Forces and of all other armed forces of Her Majesty, when on active service, or
c.the Primary Reserve, Cadet Instructors Cadre and the Canadian Rangers of the Reserve Force; and
b.for an officer or non-commissioned member on enrolment in the Canadian Forces, a period as established in *orders or instructions issued by the Chief of the Defence Staff, for academic or other special qualifications considered by the Chief of the Defence Staff to be of military value.*


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## PMedMoe (10 Mar 2012)

Why would a masters degree be deemed "of military value"?   ???


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## Occam (10 Mar 2012)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Why would a masters degree be deemed "of military value"?   ???



Think DEO.  Someone coming in with their Masters vice Bachelors won't be asking the CF for post-grad training (well, there's always doctorate but at least the likelihood would be less).  Having to spend less on their education means you can dangle an incentive carrot.


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## jeffb (10 Mar 2012)

A masters is clearly of military value for officers. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be worth anything at merit boards, which it is (at least in my trade and I suspect most others). 

Does having an advanced degree make you  better at your day to day job? I'm not sure but that's probably another topic for discussion.


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## ballz (10 Mar 2012)

jeffb said:
			
		

> A masters is clearly of military value for officers. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be worth anything at merit boards, which it is (at least in my trade and I suspect most others).
> 
> Does having an advanced degree make you  better at your day to day job? I'm not sure but that's probably another topic for discussion.



I would think whether it makes you better at your job is very much related to whether it has military value? I've been cussing down credential-ism for a while, so I'd be more interested in hearing "why" the merit boards consider them of value.

Especially now that undergraduate degrees are getting as watered down as is possible, Master's degrees are next to head down that route, and are definitely already headed down that road.


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## PMedMoe (10 Mar 2012)

I can see it as getting someone in at a higher pay level than normal, but not bumping a pay increment if the person gets it _after_ they join.  There are several people in the CF who have done their degrees after they joined and have not moved up in pay increments.  Some, if lucky and have submitted an ILP, do get it paid for.  And most do it on their own time, not the CF's.


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## jeffb (10 Mar 2012)

ballz said:
			
		

> I would think whether it makes you better at your job is very much related to whether it has military value? I've been cussing down credential-ism for a while, so I'd be more interested in hearing "why" the merit boards consider them of value.
> 
> Especially now that undergraduate degrees are getting as watered down as is possible, Master's degrees are next to head down that route, and are definitely already headed down that road.



The answer to this is above my pay grade but I suspect it has something to do with what job requirements are at similar public service/ private sector jobs. Most executive level positions require a MBA or some other post-graduate program.


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## infant (11 Mar 2012)

I thought I remembered reading on this board a directive of some sort that said, "a degree is automatically deemed to have military value".  It wasn't recent, and my search didn't turn it up. I believe it was referring to a bachelor degree.  But I think that for example a (at least one) degree is a requirement to be an officer, doesn't matter what field it is is, so that must make it clearly of military value?  Completion of a degree requires developing some minimum level of self-discipline, academic ability, study skills, performance under pressure (exams) etc, which I believe is of value in the military..

A quote from "pbi" on this board: 


> Does a degree make a better officer? I never believed that when I commissioned in 1983: I was an OCTP guy, with no degree, as were many of my peers. Then, times changed and in 2000-2001 I completed a degree through the Army. When I was serving in Afghanistan last year, my place of duty was the HQ of US Combined Joint Task Force 76, the operational-level HQ for US forces in that country. One day I sat down with the Chief of Staff, a very long-serving and tough old Infantry Colonel. I asked him if he thought having a degree made any difference. What he said was basically this: up to abut Coy Comd, it probably doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of difference. But, after that, in command at battalion and above, in staff positions, in teaching positions at military educational establishments, in multi-national forces and HQs, in working with non-military agencies, and in designing campaigns, strategy or policy, he stated that the educational experience was invaluable not because of the "stuff" that was taught in university, but rather in the broadening and deepening of the minding and the training of its processes and habits. I still agree with this.



Another example of the value of a Masters degree is that it will allow you to enrol in a PhD program of War Studies (or any other PhD program). 

Anyway, back to my original question..  I guess there is nothing in writing (from the CDS) that decrees that a degree (done on your own time and expense) has military value, or that it should bump up your pay increment at all...  Oh well...


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## George Wallace (12 Mar 2012)

infant said:
			
		

> I thought I remembered reading on this board a directive of some sort that said, "a degree is automatically deemed to have military value".  It wasn't recent, and my search didn't turn it up. I believe it was referring to a bachelor degree.  But I think that for example a (at least one) degree is a requirement to be an officer, doesn't matter what field it is is, so that must make it clearly of military value?  Completion of a degree requires developing some minimum level of self-discipline, academic ability, study skills, performance under pressure (exams) etc, which I believe is of value in the military..



Having a "piece of Paper" hanging on your wall has become the common denominator in all levels of Canadian Government and Private business in the last thirty years or so.  Apparently it is an indication that you know what he heck you are talking about and are magically a manager.  Unfortunately the Canadian social geniuses haven't figured out that it means No such thing.  The CF is playing "keeping up with the Jones (Canadian society as some mucky mucks seem to see it)".   You can hold a degree and still be a "Thud".   We all know the brainiac who can tell you the square root of Pi and its relation to the cosmos to the nth degree, but unable to give you directions to the washroom. 

Completion of any military course requires developing a high level of self-discipline, academic ability, study skills, performance under pressure (Practical, ECs and PCs) etc, so your questions seem to be moot.


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## Maxadia (12 Mar 2012)

So to play devil's advocate here, George, are there any degrees that you would deem worthwhile and of military value?

I'm not asking to be an *** here....I'm asking if there has been something in your vast experience that you have come across, that you have thought "You know what, that sounds like it could be a useful degree...."

BTW....I completely agree with the above.  In certain school divisions I know, to get into the admin pool, you need a Masters Degree.  ANY Masters degree.  Masters of Advanced Underwater Basket Weaving?  You're a shoo-in.   :


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## ballz (12 Mar 2012)

infant said:
			
		

> Completion of a degree requires developing some minimum level of self-discipline, academic ability, study skills, performance under pressure (exams) etc



I'm not sure when you did your undergraduate or what you did it in, but I would argue that these days completion of a Bachelor's degree increasingly just requires that you pay 4 years of tuition, for most programs anyway.



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> Unfortunately the Canadian social geniuses haven't figured out that it means No such thing.



The private sector has though, just ask the current crop of people graduating with a Bachelor's from *most* faculties that can't get a job. Unfortunately, due to university standards being watered down, not to mention a huge surplus in supply, employer's have learned to think twice that a Bachelor's degree means a certain level of competence.



			
				RDJP said:
			
		

> So to play devil's advocate here, George, are there any degrees that you would deem worthwhile and of military value?



I haven't made it to a unit yet so take it with a grain of salt, but when I've done EWAT accounting skills seem to be in demand. A few Cbt Arms officers that I was doing some basic stuff for were expressing that they were thinking of taking some accounting courses at the local university, especially after seeing their is a system they could use for their soup sandwich of administration. One of them told me (when I was expressing how useless I think a BBA is), "It doesn't matter what you're trade/job is, you're always dealing with two things, people and money."

Of course, my argument was that doing 3 or 4 accounting courses is probably a lot more efficient that doing a 4 year BBA, and would bring the same value. So, rather than suggest any specific degree as being more or less useful, I'll suggest just doing a few accounting electives during whatever degree someone does choose :nod:


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## SentryMAn (12 Mar 2012)

The Undergrad in today's society is simply the High School diploma from 30 years ago.

The military has to understand that to get people with advanced standing like MBA, MSW, CGA, CA, CMA, CFP, P. Eng, Law ETC, etc.
They will need to become much more like their civilian counterparts and wage match.

If you have a Log o with a specialization in Finance then it would be good if they had the professional programs like a CGA/CA/CMA which gives them the advanced abilities in their field.

This is the industry I am currently in so I can only speak to it.

An undergraduate degree tells an employer one thing, you have an ability to "learn", higher marks = better standing.  Many students don't understand this portion of their university careers and prefer to spend hours and hours partying rather then studying.


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## Sadukar09 (12 Mar 2012)

SentryMAn said:
			
		

> The Undergrad in today's society is simply the High School diploma from 30 years ago.
> 
> The military has to understand that to get people with advanced standing like MBA, MSW, CGA, CA, CMA, CFP, P. Eng, Law ETC, etc.
> They will need to become much more like their civilian counterparts and wage match.
> ...


I'm not so sure about that one. 

Who would employers choose? A person with high marks but no extracurricular activities, or one with decent marks but with very many?


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## George Wallace (12 Mar 2012)

RDJP

I can not think of any "general" Degree that would be deemed worthwhile and of military value.  It would be relevent to have an Engineering Degree if one wanted to become an CELE O, ENGR O or Maint O.  



			
				SentryMAn said:
			
		

> The Undergrad in today's society is simply the High School diploma from 30 years ago.



This sort of equates to the cost of bread in Germany in the 1930's.  Same bread, but highly inflated in value.




			
				SentryMAn said:
			
		

> The military has to understand that to get people with advanced standing like MBA, MSW, CGA, CA, CMA, CFP, P. Eng, Law ETC, etc.
> They will need to become much more like their civilian counterparts and wage match.



Sort of a bidding war to get the best.  Who wins?  Who loses?



			
				SentryMAn said:
			
		

> If you have a Log o with a specialization in Finance then it would be good if they had the professional programs like a CGA/CA/CMA which gives them the advanced abilities in their field.



If we still had Fin O's that may matter, but plain old Log O's just need some common sense and management skills.



			
				SentryMAn said:
			
		

> An undergraduate degree tells an employer one thing, you have an ability to "learn", higher marks = better standing.



Not necessarily.  I have known many who have photographic memories.  They would always score high marks on tests.  Ask them to do anything practical, that was outside of the "textbook example" and they were screwed.   Many of them had no personal skills, man management skills, etc.  Definitely the wrong choices for higher management.  Another argument to support that a Degree is only a piece of paper and really meaningless.


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## Maxadia (12 Mar 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> RDJP
> 
> I can not think of any "general" Degree that would be deemed worthwhile and of military value.  It would be relevent to have an Engineering Degree if one wanted to become an CELE O, ENGR O or Maint O.



Thanks George, but I should have been more specific...."masters" degree.  Would there be a specific Master's Degree that would be useful....Strategic Studies, Military Studies, etc.  Something geared specifically towards military personnel, that would not be just a "feather in your hat" degree.


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## infant (12 Mar 2012)

George made some valid observations that there are lots of useless people with degrees, and invaluable people without them, but to me this doesn't mean that learning something is useless (although I hear that argument often from a certain 10 year old girl who doesn't see the need to learn French).  These are good reasons for not relying solely on a degree as a measure of someone's worth.  However I don't believe that useless people became more useless because they got a degree.  And I think anyone who takes it upon themselves to learn something is bettering themselves.

I thought about my own education, and one of the most valuable learnings for me was participating in case study discussions and hearing viewpoints from people with different cultural and industry backgrounds that broadened my views on how to solve problems.  

I found this article
http://www.revue.forces.gc.ca/vo11/no2/doc/08-horn-eng.pdf

and I liked the following quote from it which makes the point that education can be a partial substitute for experience.



> Equally important, this type of study provides vicarious
> experience. As already articulated, experience is seen as sacrosanct,
> and great emphasis is rightfully placed upon it. But, due
> to real life limitations, experience is often constrained by time
> ...



Infant


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## MedCorps (13 Mar 2012)

RDJP said:
			
		

> Would there be a specific Master's Degree that would be useful....Strategic Studies, Military Studies, etc.  Something geared specifically towards military personnel, that would not be just a "feather in your hat" degree.



So I asked my buddy this question today.  He is over at DGMP and lives this topic.  He sent me a list. He notes that there are 108 Masters and PhD  (although not many) level degrees that are of interest to the CF.  Each one is carefully scrutinized yearly for relevance and the completion of each degree is targeted at a specific job / set of jobs and hence it is often restricted to a MOC.  

Here is the list for giggles.  Some of the more exotic topics are done in the US / UK or elsewhere.  Sometimes more then one type of post grad degree will meet the requirements of the post grad degree topic listed below. 

There are of course the Air Force guys... mostly guys who are designing airplane systems: 

AERE 

Aircraft Structures  
Aircraft Propulsion Systems
Aerodynamics
Systems Engineer – Avionics Instrumentation
Design, Development and Selection of Air Weapons
Aerospace Systems Engineering
Aircraft Communications Systems Engineering
Imaging Systems Engineering
Signal Processing Systems
Non-Destructive Testing
Radar Systems Research and Circuit Design
Reliability, Maintainability and Systems Analysis
Underwater Acoustics
Electro-Optics Engineering and Maintenance
Human Factor Engineering
ADP Management Information Systems
Advanced Ammunition Engineering
Airborne Electronic Warfare Systems
Masters of Science and Engineering in Robotics

Air Combat Systems Officer 

Human Factor Engineering
Navigation Technology

Pilot 

Navigation Technology

Then there are the signals types: 

Signals and CELE Officers 

Telecommunications Management
Radar Systems Research and Circuit Design
Reliability, Maintainability and Systems Analysis
Electro-Optics Engineering and Maintenance
ADP Management Information Systems
Electrical Engineering – Communications 
Land Data Fusion Systems
Masters of Science and Engineering in Robotics

CELE 

Radar System Design

And the Navy folks who do advanced stuff with ships.

Naval Combat Systems Engineering

Combat Systems Engineering
Radar System Design
Industrial Engineering
Reliability, Maintainability and Systems Analysis
Underwater Acoustics
Guided Weapons Systems
ADP Management Information Systems
Electrical Engineering – Communications 
Advanced Ammunition Engineering
Masters of Science and Engineering in Robotics
Naval Architecture
Interdisciplinary Masters in Asia Pacific Studies

Maritime Surface and Sub-Surface Officer 

Advanced Ammunition Engineering
Survey Engineering
Ocean Acoustics
Interdisciplinary Masters in Asia Pacific Studies


Marine Systems Engineering

Master of Engineering (Electrical)
Marine Systems – Control and Instrumentation Engineering
Marine Engineering
Industrial Engineering
Reliability, Maintainability and Systems Analysis
Guided Weapons Systems
ADP Management Information Systems
Naval Architecture
Masters of Science and Engineering in Robotics
Masters of Engineering  – Fire Safety 
Interdisciplinary Masters in Asia Pacific Studies

Naval Engineering Officer 

Interdisciplinary Masters in Asia Pacific Studies

And the engineers who build things and project manage: 

Engineer Officer and Construction Engineering Officer 

Environmental Engineering
Town Planning
Research and Development Explosives
ADP Management Information Systems

Construction Engineering Officer 

Soil Mechanics
Facilities Manager

Electrical Mechanical Engineering Officer

Land Mobility Systems
Land Weapon Systems (Ballastic)
Radar System Design
Radar Systems Research and Circuit Design
Industrial Engineering
Reliability, Maintainability and Systems Analysis
Guided Weapons Systems
Electro-Optics Engineering and Maintenance
ADP Management Information Systems
Electrical Engineering – Communications 
Advanced Ammunition Engineering
Masters of Science and Engineering in Robotics

Engineer Officer 

Human Factor Engineering
Advanced Ammunition Engineering
Masters of Science and Engineering in Robotics

And the other specialists... 

Military Police Officer 

Police Research

Intelligence Officer – Sea 

Master of Arts in War Studies (Intelligence)
Interdisciplinary Masters in Asia Pacific Studies

Legal Officer 

International Law
Contract Law
Constitutional Law
Criminal Law
Military Law
Legislative Drafting

Logistics Officer (Any)

Nutrition and Food Services Standards Specialist
Food Service Administration
Advanced Ammunition Engineering

Training Development Officer 

Instructional Technology
Human Performance Technology

Personnel Selection Officer 

Psychology (MA or MSc or PhD) 

Chaplain 

Canon Law
Ethics
Pastoral Counselling
Ecumenism

And health services folk. 

Dental Officer 

Oral Maxillo facial Surgery
Prosthodontics
Periodontics
Public Health Dentistry
General Dentistry

Pharmacy Officer 

Pharmacy

Medical Officer 

Advanced Aerospace Medicine
Hyperbaric Physiology and Diving Medicine
Health Services Administration

Medical Specialist Officer

Thoracic Surgery
Anaesthesia
Internal Medicine
Psychiatry
Diagnostic Radiology
General Surgery
Orthopaedic Surgery


Health Care Administration Officer / Health Services Operations Officer 

Health Services Administration

Bio Science Officer 

Industrial Hygiene and Occupational Health
Human Factor Engineering

Nursing Officer 

Nursing

Physiotherapy Officer 

Physiotherapy

And some combat arms guys... mostly tech staff dudes

Infantry / Armour / Artillery Officer 

Land Weapon Systems (Ballastic)
Human Factor Engineering

Artillery Officer 

Guided Weapons Systems

Then there is a collection of Post Grads which are targeted for specific jobs that any CF officer who is interested, able to get into a grad school program and in the right place at the time to fill the slot can be sent on. 

Any Officer 

Space Systems Operations
Operations Research/Systems Analysis
Electrical Engineering Real Time Digital Systems 
Mechanical Engineering
Civil Engineering
Nuclear Engineering
Chemical Engineering
Computer Systems Design
System Engineering (Logistics Option)
Economics
Masters of Business Administration
Military and Strategic Studies
Computer Software Management
Mathematics 
Physics (MSc or PhD)
Financial Management
English (PhD) 
History (PhD)
Politics (PhD) 
Special Operations Defence Analyst
Applied Ethics
Modelling and Simulation
Force Protection Engineering
Masters of Defence Engineering and Management
Research and Development – Subsurface Sensing 
Computer Network Security


Enjoy 

MC


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## Maxadia (13 Mar 2012)

Thanks MC.

Any chance we could get this list cut out, and stickied somewhere prominent where people could be directed to?  Feel free to stick a disclaimer on it as well, that getting one of these does NOT guarantee you anything.

But it is a nice list of relevant degrees out there.


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## MedCorps (13 Mar 2012)

It will only get you one thing if you are sponsored to take the PG.... a posting to the targeted position that was designed to be filled by someone with that post-grad.... and that is not even guaranteed. 

MC


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## matthew1786 (29 Mar 2012)

SentryMAn said:
			
		

> The Undergrad in today's society is simply the High School diploma from 30 years ago.



After completing roughly two (out of four) years of Electrical Engineering at McGill University, I can tell you that you are either completely mistaken or are generalizing way too much. To put this into perspective, just last term we had to build a fully functional autonomous robot from scratch capable of performing fairly complex specific tasks, in 6 weeks time. When I explained the project to my folks (who graduated from high school about 30 years ago) they could not comprehend on how someone even goes about starting something like that.

If you perceive that the "standard" has simply translated from a high school diploma 30 years ago to a Bachelors degree today, you may be mistaken. This so called standard has evolved to the point where an individual can (unfortunately) no longer be accredited in his or her certain proficient skills or abilities unless they possess the means in which equates them to (or elevates them from) the norm; vis-a-vie today's Bachelor's degree. How does that effect the way education has integrated itself into society? Simple, when there are too many people trying to fill too little spots, the criteria for a competitive screening process is adopted. Because education is so fundamental, it is only natural to look there first when adopting such a screening process. However, this in no way or means equates the high school diploma from 30 years ago (or ever for that matter) to the Bachelor's degree of today.

The skills, abilities, and knowledge that an individual acquires from earning a post-secondary education will almost always surmount above and beyond what anyone can achieve in similar respect at the high school level. Maturity, leadership, discipline, a sense of duty, etc., are fundamental military-type qualities which I do no not believe (for the most part) are found or developed in an academic environment. Which is why of course academics are not the sole criteria for screening applicants in the CF.

It is my belief that this is why the CF demands that all officers posses a Bachelors degree. For one, their "best and brightest" must be able to hold themselves to at least the same standards as their civilian world counterparts in all aspects; including level of education. Secondly, and as hard as it is for a lot of folks to accept, having a degree does actually make an individual better qualified in terms of skill, ability, and knowledge (where these three traits are assumed to be umbrella like terms with respect to academia).

Now, because I am a merely just an applicant, whether or not the CF properly allocates the necessities of specific post-secondary degrees to specific occupations is an entire different ball game which I can not comment on. In respect to the OP, pay increments following further levels of education most likely falls under the category of, "you'll receive the schooling and it's benefits only if it applies directly to the position we are offering you".


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## ballz (29 Mar 2012)

matthew1786 said:
			
		

> After completing roughly two (out of four) years of Electrical Engineering at McGill University, I can tell you that you are either completely mistaken or are generalizing way too much. To put this into perspective, just last term we had to build a fully functional autonomous robot from scratch capable of performing fairly complex specific tasks, in 6 weeks time. When I explained the project to my folks (who graduated from high school about 30 years ago) they could not comprehend on how someone even goes about starting something like that.



I'll suggest your perspective is a bit skewed from reality because you are doing one of the few legit programs available, at a prestigious university.

For 95% of people wielding Bachelor's degrees, this is simply not the case. Most of them are in programs that have absolutely no marketibility, and attending schools where the standard is, in fact, the same as high school. For most programs at most universities, for 4 years you show up, regurgitate what the prof puts up on the whiteboard,  pay your money, and you get a Bachelor's degree.




			
				matthew1786 said:
			
		

> It is my belief that this is why the CF demands that all officers posses a Bachelors degree. For one, their "best and brightest" must be able to hold themselves to at least the same standards as their civilian world counterparts in all aspects; including level of education. Secondly, and as hard as it is for a lot of folks to accept, having a degree does actually make an individual better qualified in terms of skill, ability, and knowledge (where these three traits are assumed to be umbrella like terms with respect to academia).



Here it comes... :trainwreck:

For one thing, I wouldn't refer to the CF's officers as "their best and brightest." Almost all of my courses have been run primarily by NCMs, and quite frankly, they are some of the sharpest people I have come across in my life, including the one that only had his grade 10. I think, if you read more threads about this, you will find that those with experience (aka not me) will echo the same thing, that officers are no more "brighter" than NCMs, they are all people, and there are about the same number of less-than-stellar individuals in both groups, they simply occupy different roles.

As for the part in yellow, like I said, you're living in a bit of a bubble doing engineering at McGill. I have come across two fourth-year business students in my program that still don't know the difference between profit and revenue... and they'll be graduating in ~20 days.


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## aesop081 (29 Mar 2012)

I wish i still had the demotivational poster that had a KC-135 in peices all over tha hangar floor and said :

"Aircraft Maintenance : Takes a highschool diploma to fix what a university degree just f***ed up"


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## matthew1786 (29 Mar 2012)

ballz said:
			
		

> For one thing, I wouldn't refer to the CF's officers as "their best and brightest." Almost all of my courses have been run primarily by NCMs, and quite frankly, they are some of the sharpest people I have come across in my life, including the one that only had his grade 10. I think, if you read more threads about this, you will find that those with experience (aka not me) will echo the same thing, that officers are no more "brighter" than NCMs, they are all people, and there are about the same number of less-than-stellar individuals in both groups, they simply occupy different roles.
> 
> As for the part in yellow, like I said, you're living in a bit of a bubble doing engineering at McGill. I have come across two fourth-year business students in my program that still don't know the difference between profit and revenue... and they'll be graduating in ~20 days.



Thank you for enlightening the perspective. 

If a degree has lost any of its merit, it is most likely due to the pressures of society placed on the individual to meet this elevated standard. If this is the case, the natural tendency will be to reduce the level of difficulty to achieve a degree as jobs will always need to be filled regardless. If this is what is happening across the majority of universities in Canada, then I can not argue my point any further as I always keep an open mind.

You are correct in that I should not have assumed that officers are the "best and brightest" and apologize for that. I did however place the term in quotation marks because I am really not sure whether if that is the image officers should posses, or not.

Cheers!


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## Strike (29 Mar 2012)

Been sitting her watching this thread for a bit and I don't think anyone ever properly answered the OP's questions which, if I recal correctly, was if there is a pay incentive for those who have a higher education.

Not sure I have the answer, but I'll take a stab at it.

Aside from the different entry plans, like ROTP, DEO, etc, there is no extra incentive for schooling once you reach a certain point in your career/rank.  For shits and giggles I'm just going to say when you are fully trained.  When I went through the system and finished my training as a pilot, there was no difference in pay between ROTP, DEO, CEOTP or whatever. Now, the pilot pay system is higher than that of a GSO, but so is a doctor, lawyer and maybe a couple of others (dentist?).  Buddy of mine who is a fully qualified test pilot with a PhD is on the same pay scale as other pilots.  My PAO counterparts with Masters in Journalism don't get paid any more than I do.

Now, there may be benefits in promotion or posting opportunities if you have a higher education, but there is no monetary benefit AFAIK.


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## ballz (29 Mar 2012)

matthew1786 said:
			
		

> If a degree has lost any of its merit, it is most likely due to the pressures of society placed on the individual to meet this elevated standard. If this is the case, the natural tendency will be to reduce the level of difficulty to achieve a degree as jobs will always need to be filled regardless. If this is what is happening across the majority of universities in Canada, then I can not argue my point any further as I always keep an open mind.



That is somewhat what I think is happening. There is much more pressure to complete high school these days because you are almost absolutely f**ked without it now, so there is much more pressure on administrators to ensure people get their HS diploma. Unfortunately, they can't force people to study, they can't make them disciplined, and they really can't motivate them (this, of course, is all on the parents... and they are making it worse because they undermine educators these days)... so they really end up lowering the standard.

Same basic thing is happening at universities, I think, since there is more pressure these days to get an undergraduate (because, as was alluded to earlier, it's becoming the new "high school diploma," you need it just as a tick in the box) and because it's much more affordable these days. So, not only is the standard lowering, but now you are starting to see people go straight to a master's program / professional program after their undergraduate, because "everyone's got a Bachelor's" and therefore it's value is being watered down.

There is also, I think, a larger sense of entitlement these days that is compounding all this... :-\


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## dapaterson (29 Mar 2012)

Strike said:
			
		

> Been sitting her watching this thread for a bit and I don't think anyone ever properly answered the OP's questions which, if I recal correctly, was if there is a pay incentive for those who have a higher education.
> 
> Not sure I have the answer, but I'll take a stab at it.
> 
> ...



There are very limited circumstances when prior education and experience may (and I stress the word may) grant you additional PIs on enrolment.

For example: professionals enrolled into their field where their experience is deemed to be of benefit may receive PIs.  So, for example, a doctor or lawyer with years of experience may be granted additional PIs on enrolment - so instead of starting out as a Capt(Basic) they may be paid as a Capt (2) or Capt(3) or Capt(whatever).  I believe the same is true of padres.

Similarly, an id=ndividual joining the CF with prior military experience from another country may be granted additional PIs.

Key word throughout is "may".  Each case is different.  Your mileage may vary.


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## CountDC (31 Mar 2012)

and May is correct.  Recruited a Doctor in the 90's that had years of experience, his own clinic and he was given Capt max IPC along with some other nices.  A few years ago I worked with a guy from Africa that used to be a Maj in his homeland but here he was a Pte when I first met him. No - don't know which country he was from.

Never know for sure how those things are going to work out until the deal is done.


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## agc (31 Mar 2012)

infant said:
			
		

> I'm looking for "orders or instructions issued by the Chief of the Defence Staff, for academic or other special qualifications considered by the Chief of the Defence Staff to be of military value." as referenced in CBI 204.511(2).c. (below).  It has been mentioned on this board that (for example) a masters degree should bump you up by one pay increment level but that hasn't happened for me, and I would like some written confirmation that it should have been.
> 
> I thought the PLAR database might contain that kind of thing, but it seems to be focussed on exemptions for specific military training.
> 
> ...



Although it`s allowable under the CBI, it`s not currently being practiced, at least not on a wide scale.  I wish I had some kind of reference to give you, but all I can tell you is that a few years ago (08 or 09), we were told through our chain of command to stop granting it as the authority had been rescinded.


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## CountDC (2 Apr 2012)

Came across this while looking at pay info:

cmp-cpm.forces.mil.ca/dgcb/dppd/pdf/piir-daes_e.pdf

CDS Order requests to grant additional Pay Increments
Refs: A. CBI 204.015
B. CBI 204.511
C. DAOD 5031-1

In order for the DPPD to prepare a case for CDS approval, the following requirements must be met.

Recommendations to grant additional Pay Increment (PI) must be supported by rationale that clearly demonstrates the relationship between the recommended PI and the incumbent’s qualifying service, academic or other special qualifications.

Simply stated, it must be obvious to DPPD that the incumbent’s level of experience, academic or other special qualifications have been assessed against and match those of a CF member in the occupation, at the rank and PI level recommended. Supporting rationale must be presented in the form of a memorandum summarizing the request and signed by the Managing Authority.

Supporting documentation must include:

a. a Prior Learning Assessment and Recognition (PLAR) signed by the Occupational Manager, and where applicable, a completed evaluation matrix (Ref C) demonstrating any equivalencies that the incumbent may have against occupational requirements and resultant training efficiencies;

b. a CV or résumé outlining relevant experience and qualifications with applicable dates;

c. copies of relevant certificates or diplomas; and where applicable,

d. letters of employment reference; and

e. proof of prior CF service (i.e. MPRR).

In the case of a member who experiences training delays, PI increase requests must be staffed to DPPD through the appropriate Training Authority. Facts must be presented in the form of a memorandum summarizing the request and signed by the Training Authority. Any additional supporting documentation (i.e. MPRR and pay history) related to the facts presented must be attached to the signed memorandum.

All documentation may be mailed to DPPD 2-3-2, or sent by email at DPPD@forces.gc.ca


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