# Sim Training



## gate_guard (14 Jun 2006)

Well today was an eye opener for my new career in policing. I did some "active shooter" simulations today with simunition. Going back to my previous military experience, I had no major problems with the first sim engaging random stationary targets. I scanned all targets quickly and engaged appropriately. Second scenario was a mobile suspect with a gun. I was quite aggressive and could tell the suspect had a hard time keeping track of where I was because I was moving from cover to cover. One major hiccup (from my point of view), I could have stayed stationary and isolated the suspect but do to prior training to "close with and destroy" it was almost routine for me to maneouvre towards the suspect using cover instead of taking up a solid stationary position. I was told that there is nothing wrong with staying in a good position of cover and remaining there.

Don't get me wrong, it was emphasized that the threat had to be eliminated. I understand that situation always dictates police response, such as if people are dying, I better go in and deal with it now.

Anyone (with experience!) have any thoughts or similar experiences in adapting to a less offensive style of gunfighting?


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## paracowboy (14 Jun 2006)

gate_guard said:
			
		

> Anyone (with experience!) have any thoughts or similar experiences in adapting to a less offensive style of gunfighting?


Yes. It gets you killed. It prolongs the fight. We tried it a while back. It don't work. It drives me insane to see our LEO following the drills they've been taught, knowing it's more likely to get them dead, and innocents nearby, as well.


*Sim only, by the way. Sorry, 'bout that. Shoulda clarified.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (14 Jun 2006)

Para,
Not sure I can totally agree with your call,....you are thinking about _your _ training where, that basically, is job one and you train proportionately. After basic,the average LEO will get limited time/ training to use cover while tracking and moving. Keeping track of the suspect[s} whereabouts so the "back-ups" can assist IMO would be more important, and besides, unfortunetly, most of the time the LEO is outgunned also.

I'm sure some of our "street" guys will be around here shortly. ;D


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## paracowboy (14 Jun 2006)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I'm sure some of our "street" guys will be around here shortly.


 I hope so. Nothing beats real-time experience, and like I said, all I have to base this on is Sim experience, with a military background. LEO have an entirely different mandate, and ROE. 

As long as we keep it limited to trigger-guys, this should be a learning experience for all.


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## zipperhead_cop (15 Jun 2006)

Well, I agree with both camps here.  
There was a time when we would be taught to take cover and fire like target shooting.  Then there was an incident in the US with (I believe) FBI agents where they far outnumbered a guy, but because he had previous military experience (and an almost fatal amount of meth in his system) he used fire and movement to cause heavy casualties.  Since then, police are taught to be more fluid.  
There are several issues here.
1.  Most police gun fights take place within 2 meters, and are most frequently during "routine" car stops.  So basically, as you approach a car, be ready to open up on it and always be aware of cover.  
2.  The active shooter training that we did in response to Columbine (two years after the fact) consists of four man fire teams, three forward and one backward, and utilizes a swat-like cover and movement style whereby the team moves very quickly through a building to locate a whackjob killing kids.  We got two days of it, and if we ever have to use it in real life, it will be a donkey show only saved by our personal guardian angels.  In Windsor, we have never since done the training again (three years ago now).  There are far more important things like diversity, and victim issues to talk about for in service training.  
3.  Where a gunman is suspected holed up in a house or car, we set up a perimeter and call in the Tac team (SWAT in the interest of a common term).  Where those scenarios are concerned, you definitely look for good cover and concealment, and hold.  Once the Gun and Knife show arrives, they do the cool thing that they are trained to do.  

Certainly, in a battle, fire and movement is a good thing.  However, "close with and destroy" is not a police concept, and although you will likely win the fire fight, you will have a hard time explaining how you were using covering fire to advance on a target if you end up with collateral damage.  As well, for the most part the rest of the police around you will be going "WTF is he doing?"  and in such a chaotic scenario, being the lone Rambo hero will be a pain in the ass for all parties concerned.  
Again, by and large when it happens, you will be within two arms lengths and there will be nothing finesse about it.  Just body indexing, and 12 hrs of paper work.

Gate_guard, what sort of training were you doing?  Private, or military?  Or are you at OPC?


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## gate_guard (16 Jun 2006)

The collateral damage is exactly what came to mind after I had completed the sim and was doing a little debrief in my head. I fired approx 15 rounds at the suspect and although I have no doubt that I hit him numerous times, I'm sure more than a few rounds missed. Because of my constant movement, I recognized after the fact that I had a constantly changing background and as such I probably would have created a greater danger to the public. 

The lack of training in team movement also came to mind. I doubt I would perform the same "heroics" if sufficient backup was on scene in part because obviously not all police have previous military training and would result in my fellow officers thinking "WTF?" much like zipperhead_cop describes.

All that being said, I guess it boils down to that fine line of eliminating the threat versus officer/public safety.

zipperhead_cop, pm inbound.


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## zipperhead_cop (16 Jun 2006)

The pin I wear on my dress uniform says "Hero's in Life, Not Death".  There are precious few situations that are worth risking not going home at the end of your shift, save in the case of assisting a fellow officer.  If you are alone, and Joe Citizen needs you to go into a place unsupported, well....it might be a bad day for Joe.  Probably more applicable to municipal policing like you are doing.  That being said, I have a tonne of respect for what my comrades in the OPP and RCMP have to do alone all the time.  Gives me the heebie jeebies the crap they are supposed to deal with, though.  
You will frequently hear "be safe".  It sounds simple, but it is the corner stone of all policing.  Watch your ass, watch your partners ass (not too close, or you might end up at the HR office) and finish your shift.  

Good luck, and be safe.


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## Red 6 (30 Jun 2006)

Here's a link to the FBI Miami shoot-out in 86.

http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86.html

Several years ago, a kid named Kip Kinkel over in Springfield (right across the river from us) murdered his parents and went to Thurston High School on a shooting rampage. He killed the son of one of my Soldiers. Here's the link to Kinkel from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kipland_Kinkel

I don't know there is a safe way to engage in tactics to confront an active shooter. It's one of the times when the public safety outweighs the safety of the police. The reality of these young murderers is that they aren't trained, they've painted themselves into a homicidal corner. Whichever officer rolls up on the scene first waits until he hears, "Got two, let's go," and they move. Officers have body armor, superior tactics, weapons and courage. This is a nightmare scenario, no doubt about it. Most of the focus on training is in the school environment, but it could happen anywhere. The Tacoma Mall shooting is a good example. 

We do training very couple of year in my agency for this kind of incident. Last fall, we did some outstanding training on Range 3000 in active shooter scenarios.


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