# Why you chose to attend RMC?



## macknightcr

Just curious to see why you chose to attend RMC vs. Civi University.


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## Bruce Monkhouse

Maybe before asking others why, you should explain your reasons.

Seems like proper courtesy.


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## macknightcr

discipline, structure, great academics, and develpment into great military officer.


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## SupersonicMax

I chose to attend RMC because I didn't know better.  If I had to do it again, I'd go CivU.


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## macknightcr

I know what you mean max, but I have tried civi u and it did not work out.  I feel I need the structure provided by the strict lifestyle of RMC.  Is that why you didn't have a good time?  I went to college here in the states, joined a fraternity partied hard, drank a lot and am ready to grow up.


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## tumbling_dice

I chose RMC because I thought that if I'm going to commit myself, I might as well go the whole nine yards.  That and Civi U people have to deal with annoying things like University Liasion Officers, Weekend Leave Passes, and an extra four weeks of BMOQ.


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## ChaosTheory

tumbling_dice said:
			
		

> I chose RMC because I thought that if I'm going to commit myself, I might as well go the whole nine yards.  That and Civi U people have to deal with annoying things like University Liasion Officers, Weekend Leave Passes, and an extra four weeks of BMOQ.



I would disagree, I turned down RMC and went to Civvy U.  In Civvy U you actually have to learn how to do everything yourself, much like the real military where you do not get everything babied to you.  If you need tuition money you have to put in the request for it, and then you have to do the paperwork justifying why you received said amount.

ULOs are not annoying to deal with, once a semester you send them an email and that's it.  Weekend leave passes?  Only if you go out of your area that you are posted to, same as if you are in RMC.  Four more weeks at BMOQ?  Nope, did the same amount of time as the RMC students at IAP and BOTP.

Don't get me wrong, RMC is a good option, but Civvy U builds officers who can actually do things for themselves.


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## chris_log

I can't resist, I chose to NOT go to RMC because I wanted to live the university experience. 

If you want more reasons why I'm glad I didn't attend RMC (from an outsider's view, of course) feel free to PM me, as my views on that place generally get people's back up here.

That being said, if I could go back in time I'd attend RMC just for the heck of it, and of course so I can get the 'knock knock' benefits of going there.


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## tumbling_dice

Sareon said:
			
		

> I would disagree, I turned down RMC and went to Civvy U.  In Civvy U you actually have to learn how to do everything yourself, much like the real military where you do not get everything babied to you.  If you need tuition money you have to put in the request for it, and then you have to do the paperwork justifying why you received said amount.
> 
> ULOs are not annoying to deal with, once a semester you send them an email and that's it.  Weekend leave passes?  Only if you go out of your area that you are posted to, same as if you are in RMC.  Four more weeks at BMOQ?  Nope, did the same amount of time as the RMC students at IAP and BOTP.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, RMC is a good option, but Civvy U builds officers who can actually do things for themselves.



I'm not sure I agree with this 100%.  Note that I don't have any experience, but I would hardly call Civvy U a "real university experience".  I mean outside of having to find your a place to live and food to eat (although in a "real university experience" both are provided by the school for a fee, just like at RMC) "real university students" don't have the luxury of not having to work 40 hours a week while going to school in order to pay tuition, I don't think this quite compares to the "hassle" of filling out reimbursement paperwork.  I mean, sure you are bun yourself as opposed to sleeping under the roof of the CF, but Civvy U is hardly the harsh real world that many students make it out to be.

And the four week extra BOTC may be a new policy, but is was definetely included in the ROTP 2009 joining instructions.


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## gcclarke

tumbling_dice said:
			
		

> I'm not sure I agree with this 100%.  Note that I don't have any experience, but I would hardly call Civvy U a "real university experience".  I mean outside of having to find your a place to live and food to eat (although in a "real university experience" both are provided by the school for a fee, just like at RMC) "real university students" don't have the luxury of not having to work 40 hours a week while going to school in order to pay tuition, I don't think this quite compares to the "hassle" of filling out reimbursement paperwork.  I mean, sure you are bun yourself as opposed to sleeping under the roof of the CF, but Civvy U is hardly the harsh real world that many students make it out to be.
> 
> And the four week extra BOTC may be a new policy, but is was definetely included in the ROTP 2009 joining instructions.



I would hardly say that the typical non-ROTP civvie U student works 40 hours a week while going to school. In fact, having been one myself, and with the fast majority of my friends during university also not having been on the government dime, we still managed to make it work without such marathon levels of effort on top of classes and coursework. There may have been a few who worked full time on top of school, but they were few and far between. The rest paid the bills through some combination or part-time jobs during the year, full-time jobs during the summer, and student loans. 

To do otherwise is, frankly, sheer mismanagement of resources.


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## chris_log

tumbling_dice said:
			
		

> I'm not sure I agree with this 100%.  Note that I don't have any experience, but I would hardly call Civvy U a "real university experience".  I mean outside of having to find your a place to live and food to eat (although in a "real university experience" both are provided by the school for a fee, just like at RMC) "real university students" don't have the luxury of not having to work 40 hours a week while going to school in order to pay tuition, I don't think this quite compares to the "hassle" of filling out reimbursement paperwork.  I mean, sure you are bun yourself as opposed to sleeping under the roof of the CF, but Civvy U is hardly the harsh real world that many students make it out to be.
> 
> And the four week extra BOTC may be a new policy, but is was definetely included in the ROTP 2009 joining instructions.




By real university experience I think he (and I know I) meant stuff like parties, girls, beer, the luxury of choosing when to go to class, being able attend class dressed like a hobo etc. 

RMC, on the other hand, is none of those things (until they get permitted to leave...then the social retardation I described earlier starts to happen).


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## tabernac

Piper said:
			
		

> By real university experience I think he (and I know I) meant stuff like parties, girls, beer, the luxury of choosing when to go to class, being able attend class dressed like a hobo etc.
> 
> RMC, on the other hand, is none of those things (until they get permitted to leave...then the social retardation I described earlier starts to happen).



The parties, girls, and beer still happens. Hell, my first few free weekends after FYOP were spent at CivyU parties with some other RMC friends. I figure that as a ROTP student and future scroll-holding officer, one should be no different in dress and deportment than RMC students while in an academic environment. There shouldn't even be the option of skiving your academic responsibilities, or attend class wearing any type of clothing that might reflect negatively on the CF. You just don't do that, for the simple reason that you are to be commissioned as an officer.


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## chris_log

cheeky_monkey said:
			
		

> The parties, girls, and beer still happens. Hell, my first few free weekends after FYOP were spent at CivyU parties with some other RMC friends. I figure that as a ROTP student and future scroll-holding officer, one should be no different in dress and deportment than RMC students while in an academic environment. There shouldn't even be the option of skiving your academic responsibilities, or attend class wearing any type of clothing that might reflect negatively on the CF. You just don't do that, for the simple reason that you are to be commissioned as an officer.



Well, I'm commissioned now...I do pretty well at my job, my NCO's don't hate me and I haven't killed or maimed anyone. Despite having attended classes in sweats and sporting a (patchy) grizzly adam's beard at times. At the end of the day, few people knew I was a CF member and of those that did...my favouring of sweatpants and extended naps didn't tarnish my image in their eyes. 

And you're right, the parties do happen at RMC. Those fake CF ID's do help with that, eh? I even saw (and confiscated one) where I was.


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## tabernac

Piper said:
			
		

> Well, I'm commissioned now...I do pretty well at my job, my NCO's don't hate me and I haven't killed or maimed anyone. Despite having attended classes in sweats and sporting a (patchy) grizzly adam's beard at times. At the end of the day, few people knew I was a CF member and of those that did...my favouring of sweatpants and extended naps didn't tarnish my image in their eyes.



Good for you. Doesn't change that fact that I still see that as skiving your duties. As an ROTP officer you should at least look the part. I'm sure others share that opinion. Call it holding yourself to a higher standard.



			
				Piper said:
			
		

> Those fake CF ID's do help with that, eh? I even saw (and confiscated one) where I was.



Wanna cookie? It's a good thing that fake IDs are pertinent while talking about dress and deportment for ROTP kids in an academic environment. As far as I know, HIE 102 isn't taught in a bar.

 :


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## Otis

Not even two months ago we took a young applicant out of the Recruiting Centre and delivered him to the Police for having fake ID ... the ONLY reason he wasn't charged (and therefore PREVENTED from applying to the CF) was the fact that he didn't try to use the ID to identify himself to the CF.

Concentrate on your studies, avoid the fake ID and foolishness. You'll have 50+ years to drink, and PLENTY of opportunities where it's actually encouraged. Don't screw up your chances at a good life and full career for some stupid liquid courage so you can talk to some cutie at a bar ...

My  :2c:


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## chris_log

cheeky_monkey said:
			
		

> Wanna cookie? It's a good thing that fake IDs are pertinent while talking about dress and deportment for ROTP kids in an academic environment. As far as I know, HIE 102 isn't taught in a bar.
> 
> :



It was more to do with your naive idea about RMC's lofty ideals and standards. The place is a breeding ground for stupidity. Thats how I (and others) see it and frankly, I have yet to be proven otherwise. 



> Good for you. Doesn't change that fact that I still see that as skiving your duties. As an ROTP officer you should at least look the part. I'm sure others share that opinion. Call it holding yourself to a higher standard.



You may see it as that, thankfully the CF left me alone to complete my education and didn't ask any questions as long as I kept passing, didn't defraud them and stayed out of jail. I didn't have daily inspections, and I'm happier for it. I think dressing like a bellhop (all the school-specific uniforms resemble those worn by hotel employees) to go to class is silly, to each their own. The prospective ROTP-er needs only ask themselves how they'd rather spend 4 years at school (choose wisely, as once they're over you'll never have a chance to live like that again).


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## SupersonicMax

Dude, at least show respect.  Not wanting to go to RMC is one thing, lacking respect towards one of the oldest units in the Canadian military is an other thing.


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## chris_log

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Dude, at least show respect.  Not wanting to go to RMC is one thing, lacking respect towards one of the oldest units in the Canadian military is an other thing.



Respect begets respect. I have no love for the place, just like some RMC grads have no love for those of us 'not good enough' to have attended charm school. It being one of the oldest 'units' isn't really an issue one way or the other. The place isn't whatever it once was (and it ain't just me saying that). 

I didn't want to go there, I would sooner see RMC shut down and I have no time for those who exhibit 'RMC attitudes' outside of the campus grounds. 'tis my opinion, some share it, some don't.


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## Roy Harding

Otis said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> Concentrate on your studies, avoid the fake ID and foolishness. You'll have 50+ years to drink, and PLENTY of opportunities where it's actually encouraged. Don't screw up your chances at a good life and full career for some stupid liquid courage so you can talk to some cutie at a bar ...
> 
> My  :2c:



This is good advice.

Unfortunately - the only people likely to take it are people who have ALREADY been drinking for 50+ years, screwed up their chances at a good life and full career - and have experienced the effects of "liquid courage" many times over.

Roy


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## gcclarke

I'm totally with Piper on the whole "dress and deportment while attending classes" thing. The point of a uniform is, well, unformity. Not to ensure that you stick out from the crowd, as anyone who attended a civvie university would were they to do so each day in a shirt and tie. Civvie U ROTP students are not given a mandate by any higher authority with regards to what levels of dress are acceptable and what levels are not. For anyone else on a random internet forum to decide that these people are failing a standard that we made up is, in my humble opinion, rather bloody arrogant.

Another important factor is that not only are the civvie U students not required to maintain any particular level of dress, they are also not provided any funds that would allow them to upkeep said level of dress. Whereas not only are RMC students provided with the uniform they wear on a day to day basis, they even get free freakin' dry cleaning of said uniforms. To expect others to maintain the same level of dress, out of pocket on an Officer Cadet's salary, is rather ridiculous. 

As for those exhibiting "RMC attitudes", well, it's been my experience that you really only get that from current cadets and really recent graduates. Even if the entire student population has managed to convince themselves that they're hot shit because they go to RMC (And I know that this isn't the case, and we're really talking about a subset here), I find they tend to be disabused of the notion rather quickly, when they hit the real world and the rest of the CF doesn't give a flying hoot what school they attended. 

In fact, that's my advice to anyone reading this thread trying to chose between RMC and Civvie U. Pick whichever you think you would enjoy the most, as after the fact, no one is really going to care. RMC isn't going to make you into a better officer, you're going to make yourself into whatever calibre of officer you are able / willing to do. Everything else will follow.


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## tabernac

Piper said:
			
		

> It was more to do with your naive idea about RMC's lofty ideals and standards. The place is a breeding ground for stupidity. Thats how I (and others) see it and frankly, I have yet to be proven otherwise.



You call me naive, then you call my College a breeding ground for stupidity. Really?....



			
				Piper said:
			
		

> You may see it as that, thankfully the CF left me alone to complete my education and didn't ask any questions as long as I kept passing, didn't defraud them and stayed out of jail.



You make it seem like you did just the bare minimum.



			
				Piper said:
			
		

> I think dressing like a bellhop (all the school-specific uniforms resemble those worn by hotel employees) to go to class is silly, to each their own.



Well most people here don't like the pillbox either, and it's probably a good thing we don't go to school in our scarlets. I haven't the foggiest notion where you got that naive idea.



			
				gcclarke said:
			
		

> In fact, that's my advice to anyone reading this thread trying to chose between RMC and Civvie U. Pick whichever you think you would enjoy the most, as after the fact, no one is really going to care. Attending RMC isn't going to make you into a better officer, you're going to make yourself into whatever calibre of officer you are able / willing to do. Everything else will follow.



+1


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## SpyGuy101

I would hardly call RMC a breeding ground for stupidity. As a university, RMC has a niche: it's expertise IMO really lies in the provision of engineering officers to the CF. Outside of engineering, the other programs are good (not great), but there are better universities depending upon what you are taking.

I suppose this would be my piece of advice: that if you have your mind set on a specific program, find the best university for that program, RMC or otherwise.  RMC may not be the best place to study if you are going to pursue a specific academic track in the long term.

And I personally think RMC tries to do too much in terms of academic programs.  Outside of a general arts program and engineering, the rest can be farmed out (i.e. more civy u cadets).

Where it excels is on the sports side of the house. It has an excellent program of both intermural and varsity, although quite frankly it is hard for it to compete on the varsity level because of its small size.  Nonetheless, the opportunities are there and perhaps more so than in a large university.  Clubs also abound (over 25 last time I looked).

As for training future leaders, my experience is those who come out of RMC with the idea that they are 'great' leaders are quickly disabused of that notion and rapidly adapt or end up vanishing at the end of their initial contract. My own Regimental experience was that about 50% of RMC grads stuck around and 50% left to other, greener pastures.

The other thing that RMC has going for it is the networking that you can effect through the alumni club.  The ex-Cadet club is an excellent source, if you exploit it, for jobs both inside and outside the military.

And for the record, I did attend RMC as a Cadet (left for personal reasons), as well as having attended civy u to complete my undergrad degree, albeit some time ago. More recently, I returned to RMC and completed my grad degree through their War Studies program, so have some experience with that as well.

My thoughts for what it's worth...


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## chris_log

cheeky_monkey said:
			
		

> Well most people here don't like the pillbox either, and it's probably a good thing we don't go to school in our scarlets. I haven't the foggiest notion where you got that naive idea.



You guys are going back to 'college' uniforms from DEU's, are you not? 

And they look just as silly and valet-like as the scarlets. 

I'm glad you're proud to have to get dressed up to go to class. I'm glad I got to roll out of bed and attend class in whatever I felt like wearing and not have to be told how to dress every day.


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## PMedMoe

Piper said:
			
		

> I'm glad I got to roll out of bed and attend class in whatever I felt like wearing and not have to be told how to dress every day.



Wait until you're done school.


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## SupersonicMax

All I can tell Piper, is that you have a frigging crappy attitude. 

From RMC or not, you should judge people on who they are, what their attitude it, rather than judging on where they are from.  

As I told you, I think your attitude sucks, you can guess what my judgement of you is.


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## Roy Harding

Ladies and Gentlemen (and FUTURE Ladies and Gentlemen):

This thread started out quite reasonably - there are indeed differences between civilian universities and RMC - and those differences are worth discussing.

Different people have different reasons for attending one or the other - and those reasons are worth discussing.

When "discussing" becomes "dissing", however - the thread has gone off topic.

Bring it back on topic, leave the personal gibes aside (y'all know who you are) - or I will lock it.


Roy Harding
Milnet.ca Staff


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## Larkvall

Here is a video on RMC...  ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vELDPuRqZfE

It looks like a small university which has its pluses and minuses.


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## J_dog

I had the opportunity to attend RMC but turned it down and went ROTP CivU instead.  There were several reasons for my decision, but the ones that stand out are depth of degree programs offered, quality of varsity sport teams and overall reputation as an academic institution in Canada the internationally.  

Being a small university/college RMC doesn’t offer the degree programs I wanted to pursue and you are limited in what you can study.  This was not an issue with the university I attended and the depth of electives to choose from was almost bottomless, which gave me a really well rounded education.

The varsity sports programs offered at RMC are not even close to the caliber of the big universities (probably because of funding at RMC).  This was important to me as I played on both on the Rugby and Rowing varsity teams at my CiviU.  Enjoying the high caliber of competition and advice with fellow athletics/coaches was something I would not have received attending a smaller school.

The overall reputation as an academic institution in Canada and internationally was also another determining factor.  It as been my experience that RMC is really only known within the confines of the CF. A lot of civi’s/companies don’t even know that the CF has a military college that offers degree’s and as a result have never heard of RMC.  I understand that the purpose of RMC is to produce military Officers for the CF, and not academics/scholars, but if I am going to school for 4 years and I will be working hard for a degree then I want to ensure that the school I attend is reputable.  In my opinion some of the CF’s top General’s have had attended CiviU, General Hillier comes to mind.

I have RMC friends who loved their experience and some that also wished they went elsewhere.  The decision is yours, my only advice would be to look at the “big” picture and see which university suits your needs .  I think gcclarke said it best, “RMC isn't going to make you into a better officer, you're going to make yourself into whatever calibre of officer you are able / willing to do. Everything else will follow.” 

As a side note, I would like to see Canada adopt something similar to the UK style, like the Sandhurst Military Academy.  Where the majority of the students already have a university degree and it is used more as a Officer “finishing’ school before the enter the “real” military.

Cheers J.


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## tabernac

I see it quite simply between RMC and CivvyU. Attending RMC gets you ahead in the military side of the house as you will be living and learning with many other OCdts with whom you will serve upon being commissioned. Your OPMEs are already done, and upon graduation will hold a bilingual profile, giving you another head start. I see RMC as the place to go if you want to spend 25+ yrs in the CF. Granted, you can still do that with CivvyU, it just makes more sense to get ahead on the military side. 

An RMC grad's ring isn't called a door knocker for no reason at all; After retiring from the CF, the network that the RMC Club of Canada provides is excellent for other career opportunities. 

I see CivvyU as good for someone just looking to put in their time, as well as being more academically oriented. You can focus more on your studies at CivvyU seeing as there are no physical fitness, leadership or second language requirements. 

Your mileage may vary.
--------------------


			
				Piper said:
			
		

> You guys are going back to 'college' uniforms from DEU's, are you not?
> And they look just as silly and valet-like as the scarlets.


The new uniform, #5, has it's uniform parts pilfered from the Navy. White NCM collared shirt, black pullover sweater, black pants with red pin stripe, black wedge with red pinstripe, and a collared version of the Navy Canex jacket (with RMC/CMR crest). All in all, going from 1000 OCdts with variations of the 3 separate DEUs, with all different headdress to the #5s has rendered us a sharp new uniform. We don't call ourselves bell-hops, as we look more like panzer commanders with the black jacket and wedge. 

I must say that every Civvie I've talked to who has seen us parade has said we look "great," "awesome," "sharp" ... My friends back home say the same thing. None of this bellhop garbage. It's more like an inside joke for us. You, my dear Sir, are NOT on the inside.



			
				Piper said:
			
		

> I'm glad you're proud to have to get dressed up to go to class. I'm glad I got to roll out of bed and attend class in whatever I felt like wearing and not have to be told how to dress every day.



I take pride in not looking like a bag of shit when I go to class.


I will not let you bash my College, just as I will not bash someone for choosing CivvyU ROTP.

You have never attended class here, nor have you ever met more than a handful of RMC OCdts or ex-cadets. The only way you could have met more than a few College members in one place is if you'd ever stepped on the grounds here, which you clearly haven't.


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## Drag

Piper give it a rest for a while.  For someone who never attended RMC you seem to spend an inordinate amount  of time bashing it.  I am a ROTP civi-U grad and have noting but respect for my RMC alumni peers


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## Roy Harding

Actually, a quick scan of the thread indicates that Piper HAS "given it a rest" since my warning earlier.  The rest of you give HIM a rest for a while.

There are a number of intelligent, thoughtful, and insightful responses here - and I suspect many more waiting to be made.

Let's keep the rhetoric on a level expected of professional CF Officers (and OCDTs) when participating in a PUBLIC forum.


Roy Harding
Milnet.ca Staff


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## chris_log

J'alores (is that the right term, and spelling) I got a wee bit carried away.



> Piper give it a rest for a while.  For someone who never attended RMC you seem to spend an inordinate amount  of time bashing it.  I am a ROTP civi-U grad and have noting but *respect for my RMC alumni peers*



And the ones that don't drive me up the wall get my respect as well (believe it or not, I do have friends...I think). I'm not bashing the people themselves that attended (lots of great grads have come from there) but rather the institutional mindset and attitude that it reeks of. And that's all I've got to say on that for the time being. 



> You have never attended class here, nor have you ever met more than a handful of RMC OCdts or ex-cadets. The only way you could have met more than a few College members in one place is if you'd ever stepped on the grounds here, which you clearly haven't.



I'll bet I know every single one of your cadet wing staff (or whatever you call them), FYOP staff...you name it. My tentacles extend farther then many suspect. And I have stepped foot on the hallowed grounds many a time. Just an FYI.


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## chris_log

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Wait until you're done school.



That's what chits are for


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## PMedMoe

Piper said:
			
		

> That's what chits are for



Chits are only so good for so long.  You won't be able to avoid showing up for work on time or wearing a uniform for long.


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## chris_log

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Chits are only so good for so long.  You won't be able to avoid showing up for work on time or wearing a uniform for long.



So my chit for my pink flannel pj's at work won't last forever?  

Of course I was referring to chits for my boots and rucksack for legitimate medical conditions


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## tabernac

Piper said:
			
		

> I'll bet I know every single one of your cadet wing staff (or whatever you call them), FYOP staff...you name it. My tentacles extend farther then many suspect. And I have stepped foot on the hallowed grounds many a time. Just an FYI.



Fair enough, but those senior barmen that you do know must only be saying negative things about RMC. I only say that because it seems you've never said a positive thing about the College. I'm sure your RMC friends must have some positive things to say... Granted, some people go through hating every minute of their time here, but thats only to be expected. It's not for everyone.

Regardless, the differences between RMC and CivvyU provide the CF with many officers of varied backgrounds, which will only ever be a good thing.


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## Gunner98

gcclarke said:
			
		

> Civvie U ROTP students are not given a mandate by any higher authority with regards to what levels of dress are acceptable and what levels are not. For anyone else on a random internet forum to decide that these people are failing a standard that we made up is, in my humble opinion, rather bloody arrogant.
> 
> Another important factor is that not only are the civvie U students not required to maintain any particular level of dress, they are also not provided any funds that would allow them to upkeep said level of dress. Whereas not only are RMC students provided with the uniform they wear on a day to day basis, they even get free freakin' dry cleaning of said uniforms. To expect others to maintain the same level of dress, out of pocket on an Officer Cadet's salary, is rather ridiculous.



I beg to differ with your opinions - if only from a regulations and historical perspective.  When I did ROTP each University Liaison Office selected a senior ROTP student at each university to act as "Senior Subbie".  These Sr Subs who had a few summers of training made sure that people were on good behaviour.  In locations where the university and a CFB are near to each other the Base Comd and ULO's influence can be quite strong.  I went to WLU, the ULO at that time was in CFRC Kitchener and several of my professors were retired Senior CF Officers who were well aware that I was on ROTP. This worked to my benefit when I failed to meet my academic requirements despite doing two sessions of summer school in two locations before and during BOTC II/SLT.  They came to my defence (pun not intended) and supported my progression to 3rd year when I still did not attain the minimum grade point average after balancing summer school and summer training.

I call your attention to the CFAO 9-12 ROTP - Since you are subject to Code of Service Discipline it is a not a hard decision for someone at a university to contact the local recruiting office or Base Comd and request corrective discipline.  As Sr Sub I was asked to specifically check on a few of my fellow students on occasion.  Perhaps this is no longer the case, or you are just unaware of this type of position if you were never asked to take on the role, or people are not doing this task properly.  I was given a list by the ULO of all students at my location.

Excerpt:  para 47. Discipline. An officer cadet of the ROTP is subject to the Code of
Service Discipline and to the rules and regulations of the applicable
academic institution. Discipline will be administered by the commandants of
the CMCs, or, * in the case of officer cadets attending civilian academic
institutions, by the base commander of the support unit.*

48.    Clothing, Equipment and Dress. An officer cadet:

     a.   shall be issued clothing and equipment as prescribed by NDHQ;

     b.   shall wear the dress ordered by the CMC commandant during the
          academic year if attending a CMC, and the dress ordered by the
          unit CO during summer training; and

     c.   attending a civilian academic institution shall not wear uniform
          except when it is required for military duties or when attending
          exercises, parades or social functions of a military nature.

Likewise QR&O 4.02 and 17.02

4.02 – GENERAL RESPONSIBILITIES OF OFFICERS
   4.02 – RESPONSABILITÉS GÉNÉRALES DES OFFICIERS

(1) An officer shall:
   (1) Un officier doit :

  (a) become acquainted with, observe and enforce:
     a) connaître, observer et faire respecter :

  (i) the National Defence Act,
     (i) la Loi sur la défense nationale,

  (ii) the Security of Information Act, (5 June 2008)
     (ii) la Loi sur la protection de l’information, 
(5 juin 2008)

  (iii) QR&O, and
     (iii) les ORFC,

  (iv) all other regulations, rules, orders and instructions that pertain to the performance of the officer’s duties;
     (iv) tous les autres règlements, règles, ordres et directives se rapportant à l’exercice de ses fonctions;

  (b) afford to all persons employed in the public service such assistance in the performance of their duties as is practical;
     b) donner à toutes personnes employées au service de l’État l’aide qu’il peut dans l’accomplissement de leurs fonctions; 

  (c) promote the welfare, efficiency and good discipline of all subordinates;
     c) promouvoir le bien-être, l’efficacité et l’esprit de discipline de tous les subordonnés;

  (d) ensure the proper care and maintenance, and prevent the waste, of all public and non-public property within the officer’s control; and
     d) assurer le soin et l’entretien convenables de tous les biens publics et biens non publics qui relèvent de son autorité et en empêcher le gaspillage;

*  (e) report to the proper authority any infringement of the pertinent statutes, regulations, rules, orders and instructions governing the conduct of any person subject to the Code of Service Discipline when the officer cannot deal adequately with the matter.
     e) signaler aux autorités compétentes toute infraction aux lois, règlements, règles, ordres et directives pertinents qui régissent la conduite de toute personne justiciable du code de discipline militaire quand il ne peut régler la question lui-même de façon satisfaisante.*
  
(M) (9 May 2008 effective 5 June 2008)
   (M) (9 mai 2008 en vigueur le 5 juin 2008)(C) 
   (C) 


17.02 – PERSONAL APPEARANCE
   17.02 – TENUE

The dress and appearance of officers and non-commissioned members shall on all occasions be such as to reflect credit on the Service.
   Tous les officiers et militaires du rang doivent en toute occasion faire honneur aux forces armées tant par sa mise que par sa tenue.


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## gcclarke

Ok, I'll bite. The QR&O on Dress and Appearance states that our dress and appearance shall on all occasions be such as to reflect credit to the service. 

What, praytell, does that mean? Does it mean that I cannot wear a pair of ripped jeans to a Green Day concert? No. Does it mean that I have to, at all times, have a collared shirt and polo pants? No. 

I don't think that a ROTP student at a civilian university reflects badly upon the Service for showing up to class in regular university student gear. 

As for the first parts of your post, yes, we all realize that these students are subject to the Code of Service Discipline, and have a chain of command. And, if a regulation was issued that actually outlines the required level of dress for ROTP students, and a student failed to meet that standard, then yes, they could be subject to disciplinary action. Or, perhaps, the ULO could issue its own orders to its students, providing guidance on dress. But until such time as that occurs, the only specific order given is the order to not wear your uniform unless it is required for a parade etc. 

Frankly, I consider the wording of the QR&O to be vague enough to be almost useless in providing guidance on this topic, except for very extreme cases (Such as wearing clothing with offensive text / images, or lacking clothing that really should be there).


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## Fishbone Jones

gcclarke said:
			
		

> Ok, I'll bite. The QR&O on Dress and Appearance states that our dress and appearance shall on all occasions be such as to reflect credit to the service.
> 
> What, praytell, does that mean? Does it mean that I cannot wear a pair of ripped jeans to a Green Day concert? No. Does it mean that I have to, at all times, have a collared shirt and polo pants? No.



In the Service sense, it means clean, neat and well maintained. Not showing up with a Grizzly Adams beard and dressed like a hobo.

Dressing and acting like a slob goes to self respect and respect you have for your organization. 

Personally, I would find it hard working for anyone, let alone an officer, with such low self esteem for themselves.


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## SupersonicMax

Not to spark an other fire, but what does appearance have to do with self esteem?


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## Bruce Monkhouse

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Not to spark an other fire, but what does appearance have to do with self esteem?



What??.........I don't*breast implant* know about you *nose job* but I think *tummy tuck* that there is *face lift* a compelling arguement to be said*designer clothes* that appearences and self esteem are very much intertwined.


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## SupersonicMax

So, if I dress with sweat pants and a t-shirt on my time off and I don't shave, I have little to no self esteem?


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## Bruce Monkhouse

I guess only you would know the answer to that.................


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## SupersonicMax

I can't speak for others, but I consider I have a fairly good self-esteem, and yet, wear sweat pants/t-shirt and don't shave on days off...  I personally don't think there is any correlation between self-esteem and the way  you dress.


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## Ex-Dragoon

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I can't speak for others, but I consider I have a fairly good self-esteem, and yet, wear sweat pants/t-shirt and don't shave on days off...  I personally don't think there is any correlation between self-esteem and the way  you dress.



And some people that are suffering from acute depression won't change clothes, wash etc for days. Low self esteem is one of the signs of depression...


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## SupersonicMax

Does that mean that everybody that dress down is depressed?


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## Ex-Dragoon

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Does that mean that everybody that dress down is depressed?



Not at all but I gave you a viable example where self esteem and personal appearance can go hand in hand.


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## SupersonicMax

Ex-Dragoon, sure, but we cannot say that Self Esteem is ALWAYS correlated to how you dress.  This is a rather specific example and cannot be generalized.


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## the 48th regulator

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Does that mean that everybody that dress down is depressed?




Well, being a civvy, and working in a military building that houses the LFCA, 32 Brigade HQ, Jag, ARea padre, Mps and our new IPSC, I saunter in on  aregular basis with Jeans and not shaved.

Oh ya, I am Clinically depressed, and suffering from other Mental Injuries...heheh, I agree with your statement 

dileas

tess


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## George Wallace

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Well, being a civvy, and working in a military building that houses the LFCA, 32 Brigade HQ, Jag, ARea padre, Mps and our new IPSC, I saunter in on  aregular basis with Jeans and not shaved.
> 
> Oh ya, I am Clinically depressed, and suffering from other Mental Injuries...heheh, I agree with your statement
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess




Civvie being the key piece of information.  The rest is fluff.


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## Gunner98

Mssrs. Clarke and Sonic,

The QR&Os are written clearly enough for someone to be charged with a NDA 129 - conduct to the prejudice of good order and discipline.  While you are at university you receive a pay cheque which is not given as an hourly wage, I have shown that you have a chain of command and that an officer must set an example. Perhaps the thing you both seem to lack at this point is command experience.  

If I ever have the chance to serve with you I would enjoy discussing this over a beer. According to your profiles you have been commissioned for a few years and can now begin to interpret and research regulations.  As an officer cadets I would suggest that we all were just beginning to learn the regulations.  Once you have commanded more than an aircraft or a desk and have earned the trust and respect to command men hopefully you will have learned that you set an example every day you are able to rise out of bed to face another day of life in uniform.  

Let's suppose for example that you decide to wear torn sweatpants to class or become profane and disruptive with a professor or teaching assistant - what is there to prevent someone in the university faculty or administration or a classmate from inferring that you as a paid military member on a free ride at school are a fine example of those who are dying in Afghanistan.  

I like the ethical quandary you face once you volunteer to serve your country - how will you act or dress when you think no one (important) is watching you.  If you think the regulations are not written to your liking then perhaps in your wildest dreams one day you will be in a position to amend them.


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## SupersonicMax

Frostnipped Elf said:
			
		

> Mssrs. Clarke and Sonic,
> 
> The QR&Os are written clearly enough for someone to be charged with a NDA 129 - conduct to the prejudice of good order and discipline.  While you are at university you receive a pay cheque which is not given as an hourly wage, I have shown that you have a chain of command and that an officer must set an example.



Luckily, there is still some discretion when comes time to lay that NDA129 charge.  



			
				Frostnipped Elf said:
			
		

> Perhaps the thing you both seem to lack at this point is command experience.



I may not have commanded a unit, but I am in charge of other things than airplanes (people), and I do interact with NCMs on a daily basis, including during my time off.  They do not think less or more of me because I do not shave on my days off.  Neighter do my boss.

I personally think that what you do in your time off is your buisness.  As long as it doesn't bother anyone.


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## Gunner98

We are battling a thunder storm in NE Ont.  Which is about as relevant as how you dress for a Green Day concert in a thread with the Subject line:  Why you chose to attend RMC? 

Now back to the dress tangent/hijack/surely soon to be split thread  - When I joined which was probably before you were born, a Cbt Arms CO or sub-unit commander would have said yes to your collared shirt and no to jeans (I don't know too many people who wore " polo pants" at university unless they were on the polo-playing or the water polo team.) 

I agree with you Sonic - but while at university on ROTP you are not on your own time.  


			
				gcclarke said:
			
		

> What, praytell, does that mean? Does it mean that I cannot wear a pair of ripped jeans to a Green Day concert? No. Does it mean that I have to, at all times, have a collared shirt and polo pants? No.
> 
> I don't think that a ROTP student at a civilian university reflects badly upon the Service for showing up to class in regular university student gear.
> 
> Frankly, I consider the wording of the QR&O to be vague enough to be almost useless in providing *guidance on this topic,* except for very extreme cases (Such as wearing clothing with offensive text / images, or lacking clothing that really should be there).


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## the 48th regulator

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Civvie being the key piece of information.  The rest is fluff.




Agreed, they are fluffy....Now,and when I served.

dileas

tess


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## chris_log

Frostnipped Elf said:
			
		

> Mssrs. Clarke and Sonic,
> 
> The QR&Os are written clearly enough for someone to be charged with a NDA 129 - conduct to the prejudice of good order and discipline.  While you are at university you receive a pay cheque which is not given as an hourly wage, I have shown that you have a chain of command and that an officer must set an example. Perhaps the thing you both seem to lack at this point is command experience.
> 
> If I ever have the chance to serve with you I would enjoy discussing this over a beer. According to your profiles you have been commissioned for a few years and can now begin to interpret and research regulations.  As an officer cadets I would suggest that we all were just beginning to learn the regulations.  Once you have commanded more than an aircraft or a desk and have earned the trust and respect to command men hopefully you will have learned that you set an example every day you are able to rise out of bed to face another day of life in uniform.
> 
> Let's suppose for example that you decide to wear torn sweatpants to class or become profane and disruptive with a professor or teaching assistant - what is there to prevent someone in the university faculty or administration or a classmate from inferring that you as a paid military member on a free ride at school are a fine example of those who are dying in Afghanistan.
> 
> I like the ethical quandary you face once you volunteer to serve your country - how will you act or dress when you think no one (important) is watching you.  If you think the regulations are not written to your liking then perhaps in your wildest dreams one day you will be in a position to amend them.



I'd like to bring your attention back to a point I made earlier. I consider myself a pretty decent officer, people respect me (or at least pretend to), I get along well with my superiors and subordinates and the WO I work with goes out of his way to guide me as needed and doesn't seem to hate me. All this despite the fact that I wear sweats on my days off (sometimes) and will only be caught wearing khakis when I have to wear them on the few occasions you'll find me in the mess in civvies (I'm a jeans guy, designer jeans at that). My off-duty 'uniform' (both now and at school) is jeans and a t-shirt (or polo or button up when I head to the bar when I had a night off). And despite 'dressing down' (as you consider it) I seem to be doing pretty well so far.


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## Bruce Monkhouse

All,
Can we put the clothes discussion to bed and let the grown-ups back in?


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## breezie

I have been to civi-U three times, so coming to RMC makes it my 4th time at university. And no, I didn't fail out of the other schools or anything, I didn't get full credit for the degree I have because it's from a technical school in New Zealand. Whatever, I'm getting paid to go to school now and I'm doing really well here, it's all good. Anyhow, I chose to come to RMC because I wanted to have more of a military education, as all I really learned at civi-U was how to make it to class on time after having stayed up all night hanging out with friends. There are pros and cons to both systems. I think RMC gets you more into being aware of details, as dress and room inspections play such a big role in life here. However, I do know that there are civi-U students who are just as attentive about their appearance and general standards, just as there are RMC cadets who are massive bags who don't care about their appearance or room, no matter how many IR's they get given for it. I also think that finishing your OPME's before graduation is a huge advantage, as is the french training. But, like others have said, if you want to do a specific degree that is not offered at RMC, then by all means, go civi-U. Same with the sports- fitness here is a huge thing, but varsity teams have a hard time, as they have such a small student body to pull their players from. Being an RO is different than going to civi-U on your own dime though, I see so many cadets (both from RMC and civi-U) who have no concept of budgeting, time management, and other important skills, because the subsidization offered by the CF takes care of a lot of that for them. Also, there seems to generally be a lack of appreciation for how good the ROTP program is, because so many cadets have come straight from high school, so don't know how hard it is to try to find jobs, pay for education, etc on your own. I'm glad I've been able to experience both worlds, I can appreciate how good we really do have it in the ROTP program, despite the downsides.

All in all, even though there are many disadvantages to being at RMC (like 6:30am parades in the middle of winter  ), I think the advantages of working with senior NCMs and officers on a daily basis is an advantage over civi-U, and the leadership opportunities (if you choose to take advantage of them) at RMC provide you with experience into how the military actually functions, and can improve your confidence in leading people. At RMC, you get so many examples of excellent leadership and terrible leadership, which are great education experiences if you choose to learn from them. I won't say that RMC cadets are better than civi-U students, because that's not the case. I will say that as an average, RMC cadets upon graduation are probably more ready to take on the challenges ahead of them than civi-U grads, just because of the more military nature of the experiences you have at RMC. But every individual is different, and I'm sure there are many civi-U grads who are more capable than some RMC grads, simply because of differences in personality and effort put into their education. Some RMC cadets try to get by with doing just the bare minimum, which I think defeats the purpose of being at RMC. I think any RMC grad who thinks he/she's god's gift to the CF purely because they graduated from RMC is full of it, you have to earn the respect of your peers and superiors through your actions, both before and after you graduate.


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## zipperhead_cop

I wonder if this has helped the topic originator decide?


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## Roy Harding

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> I wonder if this has helped the topic originator decide?



Sure it did.  It helped him decide to run away screaming into the night ...


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## tyciol

I think a lot of the 'hobo' thing is slightly misinterpreted. Wearing sweatpants is okay sometimes, so long as they are clean. They're flexible and more comfortable than jeans or dress pants, if someone has an opportunity to wear them at a civilian university without disrupting things then why not? The only problem I have with them is that they rarely come with pockets, and when they do they tend to be very small pockets which turn inside out far too easily when compared to jeans.

Especially if someone is athletic and needs to remain loose and mobile (maybe throw some kicks/lunges between classes if they're into TKD/fencing) then sweat pants are pretty good.

As for shaving: it seems like this would be a good habit to establish on a daily basis since being well-groomed is going to be part of one's military lifestyle. At the same time: it does consume time to do this, and in some cases people's facial hair doesn't grow all that fast so even if they go a week without doing it the beard is not all that noticeable. So long as someone is bathing regularly and keeps their head hair well groomed, a little stubble isn't really that depressing or indicative of a lack of self-esteem.

It comes to mind that some people may be involved in Hockey, and it's a custom in the playoffs for competitors to not shave (some luck thing?) so maybe others do that as a sign? If someone is pushed for time and would rather spend 5 extra minutes doing some morning calisthenics or studying as opposed to shaving, then it's not bad. It's more bad when people neglect self-maintenance. The difference is like: did someone forget to shave, or simply choose not to because they have other priorities or preferences?

It seems like a good skill to keep practiced in though, and in a variety of ways (I remember in some book someone shaved with a boot knife, that would be cool to be able to do if you lacked for razors). Heck, some people need to practice with razors if they've gotten accustomed to using an electric trimmer (I know I have).


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## calamityjoe

I'm a french region native so pardon me if I'm misspell some words... 

I plan to join the RMC to correct that, among other things . 
I must admit that I'm a little reticent about being told how to dress, I have a lot of ''favorite shirts'' , but honestly I can't imagine the army without unity. As dependance is one of the reality of a military, uniformity and devotion to this image (I imagine the cadets must spend time on their cloths) is a show of respect to all off those who studied before you and  who will pass after you. 

Ok, enough prattle about cloths!

I wish I will join the RMC in part because I'm a little exhausted about working 40 hours/week, going to school with people who show so much ''attitude'' (you know, too god like to be told how to work or learn),  training on diner time, please mom-please dad (even if I have my own apartment and I'm totally enslaved to it), buy cloths and find cheap healty food, homeworks at work, find clever words to write on forums...

I know it won't be sweet times to train and study at a military College but it woul'd be different...and that may worth it! 

But I found there is not a lot of programs that can be studied at the RMC, I was planing to study Biology because legal medecine always interested me...but with the RMC, I could study psychology and become a MP officer...Plus, I woul'd gain one year or two because I coul'd join the University directly, as in Quebec I must do two more Cégep years two obtain the diploma I'm attending to (double diploma, pure sciences and human sciences)...Enjoyable!

Plus I coul'd practice a lot of activities that I cannot here because of the lack of interest  of the students and the lack of budget off the school (theater, climbing, etc) and meet people from other areas...

and , honestly, I'm not realy attracted by cutys (as I'm immunized because I'm a gurl), beer (I drank a lot of them, different colors, sizes , lineage...enough!) and all the other funny things I coul'd discover (muhuhu yeah right) as a civilian university student...THANKS GOD!  

I love you all!  ;D


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## X2012

Right now I'm still in the application process, so I don't actually know any of this for sure, but this was my thought process for putting a Civi. U as #1 and RMC as #2.

First of all, because of some delays, I'm now in second year, and I really want to get going on my career. I like school, but 6 years might be a little more than I want at this point!

The second reason is that I want to get a really good academic foundation. I want to have the opportunity to really get to know my stuff without too many distractions. I go to a small school, so by next year I could have some really nice research opportunities lined up as well.

The third reason is more school-specific. My family has a pretty deep roots at the school, and there are a few really important/awesome traditions that I'd love to be a part of.

On the plus side, I'm paying next to nothing for tuition because of scholarships and such, so hopefully that'll help convince the powers that be.

But really, at this point I'll go wherever they want me. RMC sounds really interesting too, just different. And the Space Science program sounds great. Not a big fan of physics, but I could deal with it for that! So, all in all, I can be happy with whatever they want me to do. Now, I just need to get them to hire me!


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