# National Post editorial board: "Stop starving the Navy"



## Halifax Tar (30 Dec 2014)

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/12/30/national-post-editorial-board-stop-starving-the-navy/#__federated=1

Interesting read. 

- mod edit to make thread subject clearer -


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## Stoker (30 Dec 2014)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/12/30/national-post-editorial-board-stop-starving-the-navy/#__federated=1
> 
> Interesting read.



Fully agree with the statement that we are adept at wringing every last bit of service out of a piece of equipment that it can possibly deliver. This time with the unexpected fire, collision, and corrosion issues that were probably known for years have bitten us in the *** and left us up the creek without a ship. It will be interesting to see in the next year if any meaningful solutions will be generated as a stop gap until the new ships or it will more of touting the ship building program to deliver us from the wilderness.


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## Rifleman62 (30 Dec 2014)

Related:  http://epaper.nationalpost.com/epaper/viewer.aspx?noredirect=true

National Post - Mat thew Fisher - Postmedia News - 30 Dec 14

*Canada’s military course up to voters*

In part:



> > Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau has earnestly staked out different turf than Messrs. Chrétien and Martin.
> >
> > An isolationist, he apparently believes Canada can somehow sit out the messy bits of the 21st century in eastern Europe, the Middle East and Africa and, if one had to guess, the Far East, ..........
> >
> > Given Mr. Trudeau’s pronouncements, voters will have a real political choice to make in 2015, about whether they want their country to remain actively engaged with their allies in trying to manage the harsh emerging international realities by sending troops to confront problems in Iraq or eastern Europe or to seek refuge and escape in dreaming of a gentler Canada in a gentler era that no longer exists.


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## Halifax Tar (30 Dec 2014)

I read that article too Rifleman62.

I think it is very astute and accurate, unfortunately I sit in the camp that believes the average Canadian has no interest in international situations and simply wants to live in blissful ignorance of the world around him. 

That does not bode well for the current government and the CAF.


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## TCM621 (30 Dec 2014)

Question: has the current government delivered any new major platforms? I am talking multi million dollar capital projects like ships, planes, etc not trucks or guns. The only thing I can think of is a couple of new hercs. Every single other major piece of gear was purchased or at least signed by the previous government. 

This government seems to have this idea that it can wave it's magic wand and extend the life of equipment. But as the the supply ships and destroyers have proven , this is not the case. Pretty soon all we will have left to meet our international commitment is a bunch of soldiers with rifles provided they can get seats on a commercial flight. 

If they bought every year it would probably be easier to deal with then the situation we are in now where we need to replace or majorly overhaul every expensive piece of kit we own at the exact same time.


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## Monsoon (30 Dec 2014)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> Question: has the current government delivered any new major platforms? I am talking multi million dollar capital projects like ships, planes, etc not trucks or guns. The only thing I can think of is a couple of new hercs. Every single other major piece of gear was purchased or at least signed by the previous government.


On that subject - the latest CANFORGEN contains command appointments (CO and XO) for the first of the AOPS ships (HMCS Harry DeWolf) that will roll off the line in 2016. Guess it stands to reason that they would post crew to the ship in APS 2015 to do the initial cadre training with the yard and support acceptance trials.


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## TCM621 (30 Dec 2014)

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> On that subject - the latest CANFORGEN contains command appointments (CO and XO) for the first of the AOPS ships (HMCS Harry DeWolf) that will roll off the line in 2016. Guess it stands to reason that they would post crew to the ship in APS 2015 to do the initial cadre training with the yard and support acceptance trials.


Good to know.  Small ships are better than no ships. IIRC this was the first of the government's promises related to the Canada first defence strategy?


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## Spencer100 (30 Dec 2014)

Leopard 2, C17, TAPV (soon), C130J, LAV upgrade, etc


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## Good2Golf (30 Dec 2014)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> Question: has the current government delivered any new major platforms? I am talking multi million dollar capital projects like ships, planes, etc not trucks or guns. The only thing I can think of is a couple of new hercs. Every single other major piece of gear was purchased or at least signed by the previous government...



By "a couple", do you mean 17?  Or four, now five C-17s...and 15 state-of-the-art Chinooks?

By "signed by the previous government", do you mean like the CH-148 Cyclone signed by the Martin government just before the 2005 election?

???

While not all of us may be fans of how the current government may be running things, your question seems a bit accusatorily short-sighted...


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## Colin Parkinson (30 Dec 2014)

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> On that subject - the latest CANFORGEN contains command appointments (CO and XO) for the first of the AOPS ships (HMCS Harry DeWolf) that will roll off the line in 2016. Guess it stands to reason that they would post crew to the ship in APS 2015 to do the initial cadre training with the yard and support acceptance trials.



Certainly optimistic


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## TCM621 (30 Dec 2014)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> By "a couple", do you mean 17?  Or four, now five C-17s...and 15 state-of-the-art Chinooks?
> 
> By "signed by the previous government", do you mean like the CH-148 Cyclone signed by the Martin government just before the 2005 election?
> 
> ...


I knew about the hercs although I didn't realize it was that many. And I had totally forgot about the others. That is why I asked.  It is important to note, IIRC, that each of those purchases were of the "crop we need it now" type. I guess in the midst of all the things they have ignored, the things they do get sometimes get forgotten. 

Actually come to think of it, the Air Force as done pretty good. Yet the air forces is still hurting with ancient planes like the Buffalo, Aurora and CF-18.


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## cupper (30 Dec 2014)

[Sarcasm] We're can now resume reaping the benefits of the peace dividend with the collapse of the Iron Curtain [/sarcasm]


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## a_majoor (31 Dec 2014)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> Question: has the current government delivered any new major platforms? I am talking multi million dollar capital projects like ships, planes, etc not trucks or guns. The only thing I can think of is a couple of new hercs. Every single other major piece of gear was purchased or at least signed by the previous government.
> 
> This government seems to have this idea that it can wave it's magic wand and extend the life of equipment. But as the the supply ships and destroyers have proven , this is not the case. Pretty soon all we will have left to meet our international commitment is a bunch of soldiers with rifles provided they can get seats on a commercial flight.
> 
> If they bought every year it would probably be easier to deal with then the situation we are in now where we need to replace or majorly overhaul every expensive piece of kit we own at the exact same time.



Much of the problem lies internal to the CF, in the sense that project management is pretty terrible. One cannot insist that it is only the government's fault that there are no boots in the system, and the replacement boots are now (according to clothing stores) going to come on line in the middle of 2015, rather than early next year as announced (which means I will be wearing stylish issued desert boots for a while longer, since there are no black boots in my size anymore....). Taking 12 years to design and deliver a rucksack (which is the subject of a lot of unflattering comments by the actual users of that piece of kit) is also something which is "our" fault, particularly since no one involved in that program was ever fired, demoted or otherwise held to account for that abortion.

So there is plenty of blame to go around. IF *we* could get our s**t together, then most of the lower level programs like boots, clothing, logistics trucks and so on would not have become the nightmares that they did.


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## Eye In The Sky (31 Dec 2014)

cupper said:
			
		

> [Sarcasm] We're can now resume reaping the benefits of the peace dividend with the collapse of the Iron Curtain [/sarcasm]



 :subbies:


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## Navy_Pete (31 Dec 2014)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Much of the problem lies internal to the CF, in the sense that project management is pretty terrible. One cannot insist that it is only the government's fault that there are no boots in the system, and the replacement boots are now (according to clothing stores) going to come on line in the middle of 2015, rather than early next year as announced (which means I will be wearing stylish issued desert boots for a while longer, since there are no black boots in my size anymore....). Taking 12 years to design and deliver a rucksack (which is the subject of a lot of unflattering comments by the actual users of that piece of kit) is also something which is "our" fault, particularly since no one involved in that program was ever fired, demoted or otherwise held to account for that abortion.
> 
> So there is plenty of blame to go around. IF *we* could get our s**t together, then most of the lower level programs like boots, clothing, logistics trucks and so on would not have become the nightmares that they did.



I think that's probably an overly broad statement; some projects aren't well managed, but I'm guessing there was probably a lot of extra fingers in the pies for all the army kit, and the funding, scope etc for all those projects yo yo'd up and down repeatedly.

A few years ago they asked a bunch of us in LSTL to do a survey of the new navy boots with a bunch of samples.  We all thought we'd be trying on some new boots and seeing how they worked.  We showed up, looked at 7 or 8 different pairs, then filled in a questionnaire on how we thought they looked.  As in, aesthetic appearance.  Because when my feet are strapped into workboots for 20 hours at a time, I care what they look like. :facepalm:

There are a lot of really good PMs in DND; but you are always fighting the system.  If you have all your sh*t together, things are going to plan, timings are being met, you end up sitting around under the sword of Damacles waiting for something terrible to come down from on high. (Can we have that red in green?)  It's not a lot of fun, and you spend a lot of time running around just to keep the status quo on funding/scope/priority etc.  Gotten better on the Navy side with some of the reorg at MEPM, but it's only relative to the bit of a mess that I hear from the other two elements.

On the plus side, Defence Procurement Strategy is here to save the day! :crybaby:


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## George Wallace (31 Dec 2014)

cupper said:
			
		

> [Sarcasm] We're can now resume reaping the benefits of the peace dividend with the collapse of the Iron Curtain [/sarcasm]



I have been watching Canada reaping the benefits of the "Peace Dividend" since the fall of the Third Reich.  As a child I spent four years in Lonugyon, France where my father served in 1 (F) Wing, Marville.  At that time we had four Fighter Wings in France and Germany and a Air Division HQ in Metz.  There were more airmen and aircraft in Europe in our Air Division than we have total today in the whole RCAF.  The same can be said for our Army and Navy statistics.   The "Piece Dividend" is rolled out annually and we watch as our three Elements shrink as a result.  With each new defence procurement, it is almost a standing fact that what is being procured is half of what it is to replace.  As an Armour Corps soldier, I watched thousands of Shermans be replaced by three Regiments of Centurions, which were in turn replaced by 128 Leopard 1, and in turn a failed plan to replace those Leopard 1 with 69 MGS wheeled platforms.  Afghanistan saved the Armour Corps.  In a way it also saved parts of the RCAF with the repurchasing of Chinooks and the C17s.  The Navy has almost been forgotten in the past two decades, or longer, and is in dire straits.

Personally, I find the term "Peace Dividend" insulting and an total lack of knowledge of what and where it all started.


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