# Navy Morale



## Nemecek (25 Jul 2010)

Hey everyone,

As a naval officer hopeful, I've been having a lot of great fun reading up and down all the navy.ca posts. I've been doing a lot of reading up about all the tech-specs of the Fleet, including the new additions that will arrive in time and all the ins and outs of naval life.

I guess my question is really more of a personal one, rather than a specific technical or procedural one.

I've noticed that for the future ships in the Fleet, there is a lot of skepticism about when they'll actually arrive. For instance, I know the JSS was originally intended to arrive before 2010, and then re-announced for 2012, and now... who knows? As well, the Iroquois-class were originally slated to be replaced around the same time, but again, that's been pushed later into the decade. That said, I know the Halifax-class are still cutting edge and I would love to start a career on one of them.

But in the face of these  budgetary announcements, how do the people in MARCOM react to them? What keeps everyone going when it just seems that it's an endless game of back and forth concerning the new equipment? I'm not saying by any means that the ships aren't capable, but even as a civilian, I get disappointed when I keep hearing about how the JSS or SCSC is off-course and delayed by several more years.

I would love personal stories or anecdotes of what makes the Navy your ideal (or not so ideal, even!) career choice. I realize there are many ups and downs, and I'm sure with the Navy Centennial, there's a bit more attention being paid to what the Navy needs to get the job done.

And for anyone who was just skimming through the post, I'll simplify the question:

When you wake up in the morning and put on your uniform, what aspect(s) of the job just makes you beam with pride?

Thanks in advance!


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## QAD (26 Jul 2010)

> That said, I know the Halifax-class are still cutting edge and I would love to start a career on one of them



Lets clarify a big mistake here. We do not have any ships that are cutting edge. The Halifax class was built in the 90's, designed in the 80's with cutting edge technology from the 70's (and early 80's). We updated a few systems, but the platform itself is 20 years old.



I've only been in a few years, but I'll try to answer your question the best I can.

I'm a Naval weapons technician (that is until the navy initiate the big changes in the Combat Systems Engineering department).

First, I strongly believe that to have a good time in the military, you must first accept it's many drawbacks, but the most important thing is that you must choose a trade that you love (and I mean LOVE). If your supervisor tells you the schedule for tomorrow and you don't even think about the shitty part of it, you've got the right trade. (let's face it, there are no such things as a job without it's downsides)

I'm personally there right now. :nod:

What's makes me proud of my job ? I know that in 25 or 30 years, I'll have lots of good stories and memories, and lots of them are gonna be happening "far far away..."  ;D
How could working in a factory, or as a salesman be more interesting than what I'm doing ?

Now the serious reason is a lot more personal and harder to explain; I wanted to do a work that is useful to society. If something happens, I want to be there and do my part. People here (Canada) like to criticize the military. We're a perfect target, we cost a lot of money, and what we do is either secret or too weird to be understood by uninformed people. But hell they're happy to see us when something happens (and I'm not talking about a war).

This is only my point of view. Everybody here probably has a different one.


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## Pat in Halifax (26 Jul 2010)

QAD - Well said! There is something very unique about any military trade that sets it apart. Some people are content to do the same thing for 20+ years and that is fine. The interesting thing with the uniform is that you will find yourself doing MANY different things over the course of a career. I have done purely trade related things (I am a stoker), I have instructed non-engineering lessons, I have worked with outside security forces as a member of FASF and NBP, I have worked in recruiting, with the Naval Reserve, with Naval and Air Cadets, worked Trade Shows, Airshows and been a tour guide, I have had the honour of meeting movie stars, athletes and even Royalty through  my job and I truly believe that I am a better person than I may have been otherwise. 
Don't get me wrong - There are 'those' days (today is one!!) but all those people you see with the word "Canada" on their shoulders are indeed unique - are in it for more than a job or the money. When the day comes to leave the military, I am told that 'you will know'. For me personally, when asked by the Career Manager, I told him when I have 4 days in a row when I dread coming in to work. He asked why four. I told him I did it for three (ironically during a shore posting) and could not handle any more!

Good Luck!


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## KrazyHamburglar (26 Jul 2010)

QAD said:
			
		

> Lets clarify a big mistake here. We do not have any ships that are cutting edge. The Halifax class was built in the 90's, designed in the 80's with cutting edge technology from the 70's (and early 80's). We updated a few systems, but the platform itself is 20 years old.



yep, you can pretty much run all combat systems and marine systems on one modern laptop and still have space and processing power to watch a movie... When they tell you at school that computer used to take whole rooms... that's not far from what we have... cutting edge technology is mostly found in the galley in the knife drawer 

Of course, what keeps people going vary from person to person. But, like all things military, it's sometimes long stretch of boredom followed by bursts of extreme intensity. All the training and preparation you do needs to come together at those precise moments.

When I was in Haiti, I had the chance to do some translation work between the ship's PA and the haitians. Some of them speak decent french but most of them only speak creole, (not that far from french but still quite a challenge) While translating , I was assisting the PA to clean wounds, put bandages, give medication. It may sound cheezy, but when a worried mother that lost  her husband and most of he children smile at you because you took care of her 6 months old daughter, it makes all the BS I endured for the past years worth it...
Of course, it's not everyday that you go out at sea and save the world, but every time you step on that boat, you may be called to do something extraordinaty you just need to jump on the occasion.

For the aging equipment, of course it's not the most recent or even close to be... I work on a 38 years old ship... we really don't have much to say about the equipment: the government is the buyer, we are just operators. As long as there is no political will to do anything, nothing will happen, but I digress. What really makes the difference are the people who sail on them, heck, if the government decided to give us big wooden canoes, we would just go out with them and it would be business as usual.


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## Lex Parsimoniae (26 Jul 2010)

QAD said:
			
		

> Lets clarify a big mistake here. We do not have any ships that are cutting edge. The Halifax class was built in the 90's, designed in the 80's with cutting edge technology from the 70's (and early 80's). We updated a few systems, but the platform itself is 20 years old.


To be fair, 'cutting edge' would refer to comparable warships and not state of the art XBox 360s or iPads.  The standard NATO frigate (CPF, UK Type 23,  German F-125, French La Fayette, etc) that came out in the 90s is still the latest word in general purpose frigates world wide.  Many western navies operate warships with less capability than our Halifax Class.  Just my  :2c:


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## Ex-Dragoon (26 Jul 2010)

Lex Parsimoniae said:
			
		

> To be fair, 'cutting edge' would refer to comparable warships and not state of the art XBox 360s or iPads.  The standard NATO frigate (CPF, UK Type 23,  German F-125, French La Fayette, etc) that came out in the 90s is still the latest word in general purpose frigates world wide.  Many western navies operate warships with less capability than our Halifax Class.  Just my  :2c:



Agreed...the CPF does the missions required of it and does them well.


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## Nemecek (26 Jul 2010)

Hey everyone, thanks for the responses!

I find it's really great to add that personal touch to a potential life-shaping decision. The Navy website and other sites can only tell you so much before petering out of their usefulness. 

If I could expand my original question with the inverse, what kinds of changes would you love to see instituted? Whether they're procedural, equipment, social, etc. Is there anything about the Navy or it's structure that just grinds your gears?

Thanks again!


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## Ex-Dragoon (27 Jul 2010)

Nemecek said:
			
		

> Hey everyone, thanks for the responses!
> 
> I find it's really great to add that personal touch to a potential life-shaping decision. The Navy website and other sites can only tell you so much before petering out of their usefulness.
> 
> ...



There are pages upon pages of what many of us would like to see happen for the Navy, you just need to take the time and look. As for the second part , there are also pages that discuss those issues as well.

Milnet.Ca Staff


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## Pat in Halifax (30 Jul 2010)

On that note - The beatings will continue until morale improves!!


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## Nemecek (30 Jul 2010)

Good to know that sodomy and the lash are still favoured pasttimes! 

I was hoping they were. ahah.


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## Nemecek (30 Jul 2010)

This was originally one message but I guess the first bit got posted seperately through a technical error:

Anyway. Heeding Ex-Dragoon's advice, I searched up and down for more answers and I couldn't find any for another set of questions. It still falls under this category to an extent so I won't need to be a bother and start a new topic.

I know that Army battalions have certain social events during the year, like Christmas parties, the RCR Ball, etc. Do individual ships have functions like that? 

I caught someone mentioning ship divisions and how they can organize their own little keggers/cocktail parties/what have you. I know what ship departments are, but could someone give me the skinny on a division?


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## CombatDoc (30 Jul 2010)

Ships have social events just like the Army, only with a maritime flavour.  For example, Battle of Trafalgar dinner, Crossing the Line (equator) festivities (more fun as a shellback than a pollywog), banyans on the quarterdeck/hanger (i.e. BBQ's).  Also, during a deployment they have something that our landlocked brethren/sistren are completely lacking:  port visits.

As Ex-Dragoon notes, there is lots of information on this board regarding the procurement issues and naval life.  There is no doubt in my mind that the navy faces very significant recapitalization challenges with ship acquisitions.  This will be an ongoing issue as we sort through FELIX, JSS, AOPV, etc, and if you will be wearing salt and peppers/NCDs you will be part of this process.


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## Pat in Halifax (31 Jul 2010)

As for "divisions", there are really two applications. Divisions (as a noun) on ship is what we call a parade - A more formal Hands Fall In (or in foreign port parlance: Hands Fall Down!).
Other than that, the term division is used as a formal divider within departments. As an example, on ship, I would be a member of the MSE (Marine Systems Engineering) Department which is broken up into four Divisions: Fire Services (Fire fighters), Electrical (ETs/ETechs), Hull (Hull Techs) and Propulsion(Stokers of the the Mar Eng Mech, Mar Eng Tech and Mar Eng Art trades) Divisions. In this form, the word is usually only used on an official basis (PERs, Periodic Letters/Reports, Post Deployment Reports etc.)
As for departments having "Keggers", though I have personally NEVER heard that term to describe them, I suppose you could say yes. Quite often following a long deployment or successful Work UP or even if it is a last trip for many in the department, there are usually "departmental Socials" either on board or ashore. MSE Depts on HAL class are famous for their After AMR "socials" and I am sure if you look hard enough on Youtube, some fool has downloaded at least one!


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## Nemecek (31 Jul 2010)

CombatDoc,

Thanks for your reply! In reading over my posts, I was a little unclear in what I was asking. I mentioned equipment procurement as something that must be tiring to continually hear about, but I didn't mean to ask about that specifically. My bad. 

Your stuff about nautical festivities was absolutely what I wanted to know! I figured there must be a great social environment on board, or else everyone would end up going stir fry crazy. Good to know I'll have plenty of occasions to end up with a lamp shade on my head. ahah. 

Pat in Halifax,

No, I've never heard of them being described as keggers either. ahah. I just substituted a word as I didn't know the proper one! Thanks for your informative post. The context I had read about them in was an administrative one like you said. I didn't realize that they were subsections of departments. I'm mainly curious about this all as I'm a social creature (as I'm sure we all are, really), and I'm sure the Navy and the CF at large is just full of great people. Why wouldn't you want to interact with them in fun environments as much as you can?

Have fun at your next 'kegger!'  ;D


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## Pusser (31 Jul 2010)

Lex Parsimoniae said:
			
		

> To be fair, 'cutting edge' would refer to comparable warships and not state of the art XBox 360s or iPads.  The standard NATO frigate (CPF, UK Type 23,  German F-125, French La Fayette, etc) that came out in the 90s is still the latest word in general purpose frigates world wide.  Many western navies operate warships with less capability than our Halifax Class.  Just my  :2c:



Moreover, don't think for one minute that just because the 280s are 35+ that they are not capable.  They can do things that the CPFs cannot (because they're designed that way).  The age of a ship's hull is not a good indicator of its capability, nor whether it is "cutting edge."  The last time I was in a task group, the Flagship (a 280) was combat ready more often than the CPFs sailing in company with us.


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## Ex-Dragoon (31 Jul 2010)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Moreover, don't think for one minute that just because the 280s are 35+ that they are not capable.  They can do things that the CPFs cannot (because they're designed that way).  The age of a ship's hull is not a good indicator of its capability, nor whether it is "cutting edge."  The last time I was in a task group, the Flagship (a 280) was combat ready more often than the CPFs sailing in company with us.



At the same time where Lex compared the frigates you can't really compare a Halifax to an Iroquois as they are used for entirely different roles.


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## gcclarke (4 Aug 2010)

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> As for departments having "Keggers", though I have personally NEVER heard that term to describe them, I suppose you could say yes. Quite often following a long deployment or successful Work UP or even if it is a last trip for many in the department, there are usually "departmental Socials" either on board or ashore. MSE Depts on HAL class are famous for their After AMR "socials" and I am sure if you look hard enough on Youtube, some fool has downloaded at least one!



The Combat Systems Engineering Department generally uses the After Sonar Instrument Space. Perhaps not quite as much room as the After AMR. but I personally find the beers somewhat more palatable without the omnipresent diesel in the air. 

That's just me though


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## Pat in Halifax (4 Aug 2010)

A stoker is not happy unless some of his/her 20.9% O2 is displaced by some good old CO from one of the after diesels!!! No worse than cigarette smoke smell!


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## Halifax Tar (10 Aug 2010)

In the Log Dept we have used the fridge flats and the main laundry for our beer ups... Ours are never as good as the AMR parties though!

Went to one in the AMR where the dress code was whites! That was fun!


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## Pusser (10 Aug 2010)

12 Mess in the steamers was a good place for a channel fever party.  I remember one during a storm where the guitars came out.  We had a lot of fun, but most did object when someone started singing the Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald. ;D


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## Pat in Halifax (10 Aug 2010)

Pusser:
I think I know you - I think that was me!!! MAR, NIP, SAG and GAT


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## jollyjacktar (10 Aug 2010)

We always used the Hull Shop for Dept get togethers.  And a few times we were invited to Tiller Flats too for a few wets.


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## Pusser (11 Aug 2010)

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> Pusser:
> I think I know you - I think that was me!!! MAR, NIP, SAG and GAT



AlthoughI sailed in one of those, I was not in the Supply Dept then and thus was never in 12 Mess there.


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## Nemecek (11 Aug 2010)

Hey again,

I had another question that doesn't exactly fit into this thread, but I didn't think it was big enough to merit it's own thread.

Is there big list of the demographics of the Navy such as rank make up? What got me thinking was that I read an article on the executive curl and it stated that 5 000 officers would recieve them. 5 000 out of 13 000 naval personnel? I could be horribly mistaken, but that means that there would be one officer for every 2.6 chiefs/POs/MS/etc? 

Obviously not every ratio would be the same as a CPF for instance, but as a small experiment in plugging in the numbers, does that mean officers make up almost 95 of the 230 crew? That seems awful high.


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## Ex-Dragoon (11 Aug 2010)

You have around 25-30 officers onboard a CPF at any given time.


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## Nemecek (11 Aug 2010)

Is that assessment of 5 000 officers in the Navy accurate though? Where would the rest find themselves if it is?


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## dapaterson (11 Aug 2010)

Thats 5K officers, Regular and Reserve (Primary Reserve and Cadet Instructors)`, so the pool is greater than just people assigned to CMS.

For example, joint organziations like the Chief of Military Personnel, Assistant Deputy Minister (Materiel) and the Vice Chief of Defence Staff all have many members who wear the Navy DEU, but are not part of the Chief of the Maritime Staff establishment.

If you are internal to DND, look for the DHRIM website; there are statistical reports available that are updated daily, with month-end reports archived and available.


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## Pusser (11 Aug 2010)

No, CPFs do not carry 95 officers or anything close to that.   Keep in mind that the reintroduction of the executive curl effects all CF officers wearing a naval uniform.  Many of these officers (e.g. CIC, Training Development, Pharmacists, etc) never serve in ships (I sometimes question whether some have even seen one, but that's a topic for another thread) and there are still other officers and NCMs  that are not currently part of Maritime Command and so are not counted among the 13,000.  In short, the numbers can be very misleading.


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## Nemecek (11 Aug 2010)

Ahhh okay. Definitely clears a lot up. It seemed way too high to be accurate; God love Navy.ca for quick responses!

Thanks for the replies everyone!


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