# TD and R and Q



## ballz (25 May 2011)

Hello,

I am posting from my BB so forgive me for not searching, etc.

I am posted on TD to Gagetown for a 13 week course. Yesterday the commissionaires made every reg force candidate sign over 600+ of their monthly pay for rations and quarters. I told them I was on TD and didn't have to pat R and Q and that I never did in my last 2 courses. They said it was changed now and made me sign it.

Can anyone shed some light on this as I am pretty sure I am getting sold a line here. If you could post a link I should be able to view it.

I do not pay rations and quarters at my home unit. I have a live on my own (lease) and pay my own bills.

Thanks in advance


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## McG (25 May 2011)

Talk to your chain of command.  If you are a CTC student, ensure this comes to the attention of the G1.  There have already been _issues_ about commissionaires imposing policies that are not their's to enforce.


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## ModlrMike (25 May 2011)

You are correct. You should not be paying R&Q while on TD. Did you keep a copy of what you signed? If so, take it to the OR and have them sort it out, in addition to advising your CofC.


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## ArmyRick (25 May 2011)

I am very curious as to who directed or ordered the commissionaires to do this. Please do tell when you get to the bottom of this.

I was recently in a situation that several senior soldiers tried to question (leave it to the RMS clerks, this is their bread and butter).

I was at one unit and posted to another unit but was held back at my old unit to do an RST task. Because I was no longer belonging to that unit, I was placed on TD. Alot of people tried to cry fowl, but hey too bad.

Research it, get some assistance from a BOR (or OR depending kind of unit your from) and get the facts.


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## Wookilar (25 May 2011)

The only rules similar to TD that have changed are for Reservists on IR. Nothing regarding TD has changed.

Unless there are multiple messages with your name on it, should be a slam dunk (we've had individuals show up with TD and Attached Posted messages in the system). We have seen some crazy stuff so far this year re IR/TD/Attached.

If you need some more info on particulars for TDI's, send me a pm.

Wook


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## Pusser (25 May 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> I am *posted on TD *   to Gagetown for a 13 week course. Yesterday the commissionaires made every reg force candidate sign over 600+ of their monthly pay for rations and quarters. I told them I was on TD and didn't have to pat R and Q and that I never did in my last 2 courses. They said it was changed now and made me sign it.



Which is it?  Postings and TD are very different.  You would never be posted for a 13 week course, unless you were joining a unit at that location immediately afterwards.  That's not the case is it?  Or, have you been attach posted (which is not the same thing)?

If you are indeed posted, then yes, you have to pay R&Q, unless you move out onto the economy.  This requires the permission of your CO, particularly if you are on course.  Also, if you are posted, you are entitled to a host of relocation benefits.  However, I strongly doubt that this is the case.

If you are on TD ( a more likely scenario), then you are correct, you don't have to pay R&Q and you are in fact, entitled to a daily allowance for incidentals. 

Another reasonable possibility is that you have been attach posted.  This used to be the norm for courses (particularly long ones, but has generally gone the way of the dodo.  However, it can still happen.  If you are attach posted, you are entitled to a limited array of relocation benefits (e.g. you can ship some stuff, but no posting allowance).  The kicker is that if attach posted, you are required to pay for R&Q.  You can get out paying for quarters only if you can prove you are maintaining a residence elsewhere, but you generally can't get out of paying for rations.  Attach posting is one of the biggest kicks in the gonads we offer.

You need to check your course message to find out whether you are posted, attach posted or on TD.

The only think anyone should ever be signing for from a commissionaire is a key and maybe a meal card.  If they want you to sign anything else, that should be done during your In-Routine during working hours.


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## McG (25 May 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> The only think anyone should ever be signing for from a commissionaire is a key and maybe a meal card.


Saddly, there is a recent history of Gagetown commissionairs deciding who should pay and then going directly after room occupants for R&Q when those occupants are in fact on TD.  Units are not being informed in advance, and so my advice is to inform the chain of command.


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## ballz (25 May 2011)

I'm on friggin TD. That's what it says on my message and I am also receiving incidentals on my claim. I am going back to St. John's to finish school after this course.


The Pl Wo was asking people about handing in their leases today so I got a chance to mention it to him, he said he would check into it.

Also this was during work hrs. They had all 3 platoons in the theatre doing admin as this is the start of our course. The difference is most reg force people are posted to the Infantry School, I am one of only two people on my platoon on TD.


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## Nfld Sapper (25 May 2011)

MCG said:
			
		

> Saddly, there is a recent history of Gagetown commissionairs deciding who should pay and then going directly after room occupants for R&Q when those occupants are in fact on TD.  Units are not being informed in advance, and so my advice is to inform the chain of command.



This has happened even to SNCO's.......


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## medicineman (25 May 2011)

There were issues with Base Acc in G'Town when I left there in '06 - glad to see things don't change much.  Same issue too - Commissionaires were running it.  

MM


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## Nfld Sapper (25 May 2011)

Well get this.... The new training shacks are virtually empty cause they are booked for later in the summer....we got MCpl's bunking with Cpl's and Spr/Pte's in D23/24/25....the females that where automatically put into to single rooms in D59/60 are now being double bunked in D27....... heck I even got one Sgt (though he is on course) bunking in course shacks with MCpl/CplPte's......


Not sure what the heck is going on with accomodations this year....


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## medicineman (25 May 2011)

I'll tell you what the problem is: CRIS - Cranio-Rectal Insertion Syndrome, which causes secondary Fecalcepahlism.

MM


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## AmmoTech90 (25 May 2011)

And what happens if you don't sign?  You don't get a room?  That happens, head over to the course office and explain that you need a hotel.

When it comes to your money do not just go with the flow and assume it will get sorted out later.  If something is hinkey then Base Accom can wait for their money until it gets sorted out.  If the course and school staff are professional they will not mind sorting out admin screwups as long as you are in the right.  This should be sorted out right away even if it requires the schools command staff to call the base command staff at o'dark stupid on Sunday so the CCoC can be provided with correct direction.

Of course if you are in situation where you are required to pay R&Q shame on you for not determining that before departing.


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## McG (25 May 2011)

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> ... even if it requires the schools command staff to call the base command staff ...


That would upset the CTC apple cart.  Can't go to the base without going through the fmn.

... I must now hit the post button before succumbing to urges for ranting about organizational bloat.


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## dapaterson (26 May 2011)

MCG said:
			
		

> That would upset the CTC apple cart.  Can't go to the base without going through the fmn.
> 
> ... I must now hit the post button before succumbing to urges for ranting about organizational bloat.



Someone in CTC needs to learn how to read a CFOO, as it is clear that a CO of a lodger unit (like a CF school in Gagetown) is authorized to liaise directly with support units (like the base).  That's why we have info and action fields in correspondene:  keep your chain informed, and get the appropriate folks engaged and acting.



> 8. CHANNELS OF COMMUNICATION SHALL FOLLOW THE CHAIN OF COMMAND AND CONTROL, EXCEPT THE COMMANDING OFFICER IS AUTHORIZED TO COMMUNICATE DIRECTLY WITH SUPPORTING UNITS ON MATTERS OF SUPPORT AND WITH NDHQ STAFF ON THE SUBJECT OF INDIVIDUAL PERSONNEL CAREER MANAGEMENT


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## McG (26 May 2011)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Someone in CTC needs to learn how to read a CFOO, as it is clear that a CO of a lodger unit (like a CF school in Gagetown) is authorized to liaise directly with support units (like the base).  That's why we have info and action fields in correspondene:  keep your chain informed, and get the appropriate folks engaged and acting.


... but if CTC did not insist on being the conduit to base Gagetown for all its schools, what justification would it have to build an empire with many parallel/analogous staff organizations to things that exist for the same purpose on base?  What would they do with a G4 Tn, a G4 Maint, and a G6 that have no fmn level capabilities and do not resource level across units?


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## dapaterson (26 May 2011)

MCG said:
			
		

> ... but if CTC did not insist on being the conduit to base Gagetown for all its schools, what justification would it have to build an empire with many parallel/analogous staff organizations to things that exist for the same purpose on base?  What would they do with a G4 Tn, a G4 Maint, and a G6 that have no fmn level capabilities and do not resource level across units?



I suggest we deploy CTC HQ, wholesale, to Afghanistan for the training mission.  That way we can assure our success.

Since I want to send them to train the Taliban.  And once the Taliban are organized and trained to be just like CTC, their ability to fight or to take any possible action will be utterly destroyed.


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## Good2Golf (26 May 2011)

Are the Commissionaires doings this because they have had management of SQ/shacks delegated from the ASU down to them?  Even if this is the case, is sounds like something in the delegation directive has run badly amok.

Regards
G2G

p.s.  This isn't a "tit for tat" thing because CTC doesn't get LDA, is it?


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## Pusser (26 May 2011)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I suggest we deploy CTC HQ, wholesale, to Afghanistan for the training mission.  That way we can assure our success.
> 
> Since I want to send them to train the Taliban.  And once the Taliban are organized and trained to be just like CTC, their ability to fight or to take any possible action will be utterly destroyed.



There was an admiral who publicly advocated a similar approach to defeating the Soviets.  He said the best way to defeat them was to go to the Soviet Union, elect a Liberal government, and then reorganize (i.e. unify) their armed forces the same way that was done to the CF.

He was fired the next day.  For his retirement ceremony, he wore his old RCN blue uniform and the entire Fleet showed up to show support (i.e. Right on!  Thanks for taking one for the team! - Not, we're glad to see you go).


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## ballz (15 Jul 2011)

I meant to follow up on this a long time ago.

My clerks in SJ were quick to straighten everything out (many thanks were in order), so it got sorted pretty quick once they got a hold of the clerks that were handling the B Coy admin and told them I was on TD.

Of course, when it was mentioned to whomever on the commissionaire / civie side, they were quick to point out that "member must have indicated he was attach posted." :facepalm: I clearly pointed out that I was on Temporary Duty and wasn't supposed to pay R&Q and was then told "the rules have changed," but whatever, the only damage done in the grand scheme of things is from grinding my teeth when I read that response haha.

Thanks to everyone who posted and extra thanks to Wookilar who provided me with the perfect references, just in case I had to go swinging them around.



			
				ArmyRick said:
			
		

> I am very curious as to who directed or ordered the commissionaires to do this. Please do tell when you get to the bottom of this.



I have no idea who directed it. This was the first day of course the whole Coy was in one of the lecture theatres and the civie/commissionaire had a table set up on the stage and all Reg Force personnel were told to line up and start signing.



			
				AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> When it comes to your money do not just go with the flow and assume it will get sorted out later.



While you're correct, being an OCdt on Day 1 of Ph III with its 55% attrition rate, I didn't want to go kicking up any shitstorms and giving up my grey status that early on...


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## Wookilar (15 Jul 2011)

Thanks for the update (I'll have those other refs for you in a few, just digging a little more in the CBIs).

As for the confusion, there is always some unfortunately. I was sorting out someone yesterday (someone that should have known better) on who should and who should not be paying R&Q while on course/taskings.

We can only kick at the darkness one kick at a time.

Wook


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