# Common Army Phase



## csura2

I‘ll be heading off to Phase 2 in Gagetown this summer.  I have a very slight build (115 pounds, 5‘6").  I‘m pretty nervous about CAP, because I think that there are 5 weeks of field time, and I tend to lose a significant amount of weight while in the field.  The longest I‘ve ever been in the field up until now, is for five day exercises, but not for five weeks in a row like CAP will be.  I was hoping someone could suggest any helpful ways for me to not waste away while in the field (particular foods or protein bars?).  Thanks.


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## Redeye

It‘s not five weeks in a row, non-stop, you‘ll be back up top every now and then.  Eat all your IMPs and you‘ll be fine.


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## tree hugger

I was med RTU‘d last year on CAP.  I‘m schedualed to be there this summer if I can convince my doctor that my knee is fine.  Try right now to gain some muscle mass ie. protein shakes.


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## chrisf

Just a thought, but maybe you aren‘t eating everything there is to eat in your IMP? I know some of it tastes like crap, but if it‘s edible, it‘s there to be eaten.


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## Slim

See if they will allow you to eat the Winter Supliment Packages as well for energy...They do help some.


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## Engineer Corporal

Are knee pads frowned apon? What‘s the story.


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## ggranatstein

CAP is physically demanding. It is doable though. Last summer, when I was CAP there was this small girl ‘Queenie" - she was maybe 5 feet and maybe 100lbs. She had such heart and drive. She did it. She proved to me that it was just a mental effort. You can overcome the physical.

If you have any CAP-specific questions, ask me. It‘s still fresh in my mind.

Tree hugger... Who are you? Were you on my course?


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## tree hugger

You would have been on the reserve CAP.  I was on the reg force CAP.


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## DogOfWar

Grab a bottle of "Nlarge" at a bodybuilding store. Slam back some of those and you‘ll be beefier when you leave.....as a side note I put on 15 pounds in BMQ.....A quality whey protein will help you out as well. Avoid SOY protein powder. Its harder on your stomach to digest and absorb.


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## Ian

Good day,

How much field time is there on the Reg Force CAP? Is it 5 weeks (?) spread out into like 3-5 exercises?

Any other advice from ppl who did the course?

Habitant, altho you may have been on the Res CAP (?), how did the weekends work on your course? I assume a few of the weekends are in the field.. Just wondering if its worth it to bring my car or just take the free transportation.

Thanks!


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## ggranatstein

Chesterfield,

In the 6 weeks of the course we had every OTHER weekend off. But it was a full weekend - Friday Eve until Sunday at 1800. It is not necessary to bring a car - it saves cab fare to Freddie... but you‘ll be so sleep f‘d you won‘t want to go anywhere execept to bed.

Tree hugger- you RMC?

Any other questions? Please ask!


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## Exodeus

Other than physical training, do you have any other preparation advice for CAP? Is there anything posted online like there was for BOTC? I‘ll be in Gagetown this summer too.


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## Franko

Exodeus....when you here the tanks rolling about in the dead of night....

STAND UP!

That‘s all you really need to know. Have fun   

Regards


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## tree hugger

I‘m civi U at UNB.


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## kjhgfds

Eat all your rations, get in the best shape possible and bring a little extra to the field. If you can, put on some muscle mass not fatty weight.

But, as long as you are well prepared physically for the course, its all mental. Just play the game, Good luck!


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## Superman

What is it you do in CAP?


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## kurokaze

For anyone going to Gagetown for CAP(R), BE PREPARED FOR THE WEATHER!!!!  I can‘t stress that enough.. oh and the bugs too.

EMEgirl, I lost 20lbs in 5 weeks on that course.  You‘re not going to spend the entire 5 weeks in the field, but you are going to squeeze for time, especially meal times.  

I would also recommend bringing extra stuff like protein with you to the field.  I didn‘t and I paid for it.  But just remember, you‘re going to have to hump everything that you bring.


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## Army Man

So aside from getting physically fit, there‘s not much else we can do to prepare?


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## PPCLI Guy

Determination is more important than muscle mass, and just as important as fitness.  It is about toughness vs fitness - both mental and physical.  Don‘t give up, look after yourself, and learn from others - you will be fine.


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## quebecrunner

I‘ve got a question... Do every  army officer have to do the CAP? My MOC is health care administration officer (48) and i‘m doing my botp-r this summer. 

They are so messed-up at my unit... they dont know what is the steps for training an officer...


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## PPCLI Guy

CAP stands for Common Army Phase - and I know for a fact that Reg F HCA pers do the CAP - but I am not sure about Reserves.


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## quebecrunner

there is something strange: The medical category that is necessary do be in the CAP is, for the vision V3. But i‘m V4 and the MOC that i was accepted is V4. So what it mean? My MOC is (48 health care administration). So, if i understand, i will not do the CAP because it is not required for my MOC? In the regular, the MOC 48 is V4 also...


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## JohnSmith183

I was wondering if those with some experience in the forces could provide me with some information in regards to the  Phase I Common Army Phase (CAP) Training. Sometime this year I am scheduled to be posted to Gagetown in order to complete this 8 week training course and would like a heads up on what to expect before I go.

Responses to questions such as:

1) What topics are covered?
2) How many of those 8 weeks are in class? How many are out on the field?
3) How demanding is it physically, mentally?
4) Has any one gone through the course recently and have any tips or advice?
5) Can I obtain the course syllubus somewhere?

I thank you in advance for your time and effort,

Smith


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## RCPalmer

For introductory information on Common Army Phase (Regular and Reserve) you can try the Infantry school's relatively small esternal website (  _http://www.brunnet.net/infsch/_ ).   Under "The School" you will find the Infantry School's Joining Instructions, which includes an annex for most of the courses being run out of there. Annex A describes CAP's performance objectives.   The course Training Plan and Master Lesson Plans are available through the DIN if you have access to that.   As for the level of difficulty, that depends on whether a person is taking regular of reserve CAP and on the background of the individual.


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## JohnSmith183

RCPalmer,

Thank you for that information. For the record, I am reg force and unfortunately at this time have no access to the DIN. However, I will definitely take your advice and make it a point to access the DIN and obtain the specifics on the course itself.

However, if there is anyone else reading this entry and is able to provide some first had experience on the topic, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thank You,

Smith


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## George Wallace

JohnSmith183 said:
			
		

> 1) What topics are covered?
> 5) Can I obtain the course syllubus somewhere?


The topics covered are in the course syllabus.   The course syllabus will not be finalized until just prior to the Crse, and even then it will go through constant modification.   If you find someone who has done CAP recently, and from what you mentioned you must know someone, get their syllabus and it should give you a general idea of topics covered.   The Training Calendar should be made up for this year, but unscheduled events are not, so it is too early to worry about your syllabus.




> 2) How many of those 8 weeks are in class? How many are out on the field?



Plan on a good four(plus) weeks in the field.



> 3) How demanding is it physically, mentally?



Very!



> 4) Has any one gone through the course recently and have any tips or advice?



I'll defer that to someone who was a student/candidate rather than staff.


GW


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## chaos75

First off Reg Force CAP is 11 weeks vice the reduced res Cap of 8 weeks.  The course is somewhat the equivilant of PLQ for the NCM's.  The syllabus includes weapons training, fieldcraft, and platoon level tactics, and some physical fitness time.  So if you come to course in shape, and can handle 11 weeks of reduced sleep and infantry life, you will do fine.


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## RCPalmer

If I am not mistaken, regular force Phase Two (parts one and two), was 11 weeks long. CAP (R) is 5 weeks, and regular force CAP is 9 weeks. The annex at the Infantry School website turned out to be mislinked, sorry to lead you astray. Having taken both regular force Phase Two and CAP (R) (long story), I am pretty familiar with the course.  The course is challenging in it own way, mostly due a comparitively steep learning curve (e.g. you will learn what a recce patrol is one day and you could be leading one in a week). For infanteers, the course teaches you to lead at the section level as an essential "building block" to commanding at the platoon level.
   
As for specific course content, everything listed as "supplemental training" on the CAP (R) joining instruction is taught on regular force CAP (that is where the four week time difference comes from).  

The course is meant to be challenging. Your instructors are looking to see if you can keep your head when a degree of physical strain and sleep deprivation is applied.  There will be field exercises, testing your ability to command Section Attacks, Reconaissance Patrols, and to lead a Section in the defence. These exercises will vary from 5-10 days in length. As was previously posted, getting one's level of fitness up is essential.

JohnSmith183, do you have anyone to defer to for guidance on these matters such a supervisor? I know in my unit we always try to give new officers a "heads up" on these type of issues (since untrained officers in the reserves parade with their units between courses).  Unfortunately, most regular force officers don't get that opportunity.


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## JohnSmith183

Gentlemen,

Thank you for the information, please keep it coming. RCPalmer, I do not have a supervisor at this time that can guide me in regards to this training (2nd Language Training predicament)  or anyone for that matter who is knowledgable on the subject. All the officers in the 2nd language training are in the same situation, where we are learning about the CAP course through hearsay and rumors. 

However, I do have a Military Police Officer acquaintance (reg force) who is in the Air force and is scheduled for the CAP training. (An Air force MPO doing CAP sounds strange to me...if anyone can tell me if he is mistaken please do, so that I can inform him of the discrepency.) He showed me the MPO trade brochure and it clearly states that CAP is 8 weeks in duration and then it gives the "...training in austere conditions..." rhetoric as part of the brief description.

"Chaos" what were you referring to in your post in regards to the "res reduced CAP of 8 weeks"? Is that possibly what my MPO acquaintance will be taking? Is it different then what Infanteers will take?

Again thanks to everyone for the information, I will wait to get on the DIN later on to get the updated syllabus. However if there is any more information or advice that anyone can provide me it would be very much appreciated.

Smith


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## chaos75

My info is off the top of my head, if I was at work i could give more accurate timings off the infantry School site.  As far as I know all reg force army officers do the same course, no differences for different trades with the exception of medical officers I think.  Either way if your Reg, plan on 11 weeks, with three or four field ex's plus the ranges.  It will be fun.


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## RCPalmer

Common Army Phase, as the name suggests, is a requirement for all army officers.   Additionally, some officer candidates in so called "green" air force trades are required to take it (from what I have seen, air force construction engineers as well as air force MP's).   Regardless of occupation, all officers take the same CAP course.   CAP (R) is for reserve officers.   As for the slight discrepancy in course length (8 vs.9 weeks), the Combat Training Center likes to put on a big parade with all the graduating officer courses at the end of the summer, and a week's practice is usually set aside for that.   

Keep in mind that it is the Infantry School that runs this course, and they consequently have the most up to date information.   The officer training system has been in flux for the last couple of years, and there have been a lot of misunderstandings as a result of this. 

Just to clarify a couple of nomenclature points, there are two resources that you will find on the DIN that are most useful.   Firstly, there is the Course Training Plan (TP).   The TP describes performance objectives, and provides an rough timetable for the course.   Secondly, the course will have a set of Master Lesson Plans (MLPs).   This is the actual "meat" of the course material and is a good pre-study resource.   Many of the MLPs will even have handy powerpoint slide presentations with them.

Just as an addition to chaos75's post, yes this is a fun course that you will probably find quite rewarding.   

By the way, did you find the Infantry School joining instructions O.K.?


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## cypmat

I did my CAP this past summer with the RMC ''Kids'' (I am DEO, EME). It was from may 31 to august 12.

After CAP, St-Jean really feels like a summer camp. When I went through BOTC I did find it challenging, but as soon as you get to Gagetown you realize thats something is different. As the name says it INFANTRY School not CANADIAN FORCES School. As my Sgt in St-Jean said once, in St-Jean you join the CF in Gagetown you join the Army.

Most important point is avoiding injuries. This is the main reason for staying in shape. We started 53 and finished 34. Ok we were the franco platoon and all our staff was infantry so yes, we were more ''hardcore'' than others, but still, PT everyday of the week and sometimes on weekends is hard on the untrained body. We were only 6 guys above 25 yo and most of the injured were 19-20.

The typical morning routine in garrison was PT, inspection and then 200 pushups before breakfast to ''pay'' for the rust on the C9. Yeah, we paid for a lot of things this summer. But the weather was relatively nice.

Another big word over there is: ATTITUDE. You got to maintain a good attitude towards the staff even in hard times (and there will be many). These guys WILL remember you when the time comes to be assessed on your patrol. And dropping out on PT is a big deal, unless you're a woman.

Since you get a Sgt and MCpl per section, they see everything and hear everything. But they can be friendly and helpful if you work hard. 

The biggest difference is in the field. I realized you can accomplish a lot on 5 hours of sleep a WEEK! I admit that I twice fell asleep walking back from a patrol. And its funny how the staff doesnt care about the lack of sleep. Ah and the woods!! Man the most dense woods I ever walked in. Nothing like Farnham. I remember the day we had a rucksack march in those woods... It lasted from 2300 to 0500 non stop. Inspection at 0630 of course and another day of fun. Or when I came across a black bear during night topo (it growled)...

anyway I am happy to have finished and I have a newfound respect for infantrymen. Boy, after going through 6-7 section attacks a day, you quickly realize that firing a C9 and pepper-potting with 4 barrels on your back is tough and not that fun after the first couple of times. Dont get me started with patrols....

If I can suggest a Hotel in Fredericton try the Lord Beaverbrook. Its expensive but after a week in the field its a nice change. And they have internet on the TV!


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## JohnSmith183

RCPalmer,

I did go to the site you directed me to and found under Annex 'A' a .pdf document that was pretty much a kit list for the course. However, as stated before I will wait to get on the DIN to get a finalized version on the joining instructions and syllabus in order to get as much info as possible on the course before it actually begins.

Cypmat, thank you very much for the information! Your comparison and contrast to Farnham was great seeing that all I and the other new Officers have to compare anything to is that 4 weeks of "fun in the field" in Quebec. I will take your advice to heart and REALLY try to see the bigger picture throughout the more trying times of the course. 

I guess my last question is in regards to the duration of the course again. Cypmat you stated that your course was approximately 11 weeks in duration, does this include Phase I AND Phase II of the course? Is Phase I only 8 weeks? We are hearing that the course is 8 weeks in duration so unless it has changed or is continuing to change this is something that we would like to pin down. On the other hand I guess we can wait to get on the DIN, but any information would really help us out.

Thanks again to everyone,

Smith


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## cypmat

A few years back, Phase 2 was in two parts. 8 weeks in Gagetown and 3-4 weeks in your trade school, Borden for EME, LOG, Kingston for SIGS and Gagetown for the grunts. Now its everyone together, all trades have fun and learn to work with each other during 11 weeks. I know people who went in the fall and its the same system. Anyway at CFSEME Borden the only training is phase 3 next summer and phase 4 next fall


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## Naralis

Hello,

I am currently R031, and wish to comission as an Intel Officer. Can anyone tell me more about what the training would be like and what I'd be doing after CAP (Phase II)? Do I need to comission first as an Infantry officer, then change to Intel, or is this a specific trade, unlike PsyOps that take anyone already in the forces? Anything else I should know?

I'd like to be informed before going up the CoC and the recruiting center.  ;D

Cheers & Thanks!


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## The_Falcon

Try using the SEARCH function and/or going here http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/17703.0.html.


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## tasop_999

Does anyone know what the new policy is for the Int Branch on CAP? I have heard now that all officers have to complete this course, including ones wearing the Naval and Air uniform.  I have also heard that there are some exceptions to be made if a member has previous time in service.


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## chicco

CAP now is for all Land Forces including MP's all branchs Capt and below & Air Force Engineers.
I think Medical Officers are exempt...not sure.


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## AmphibousAssult

As a reservist atending RMC, will I be put on a reg force or a Pres CAP?, anyone have any idea on that one ???


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## Synthos

Part of the reason for losing weight in the field is that your body is not as used to the sudden decrease in food with an increased activity level. With a 5 day exercise by the end of it your body is just getting used to processing less food and having to get more energy out of what you give it.

If you want to lessen the effect of the field on your body you have to adjust your body to the expected conditions beforehand... Heavy exercise and eating less will start to get your digestive system used to the conditions.

In any case a few days into CAP you will adjust better to the IMPs and such.


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## Foxman

Marksman said:
			
		

> As a reservist atending RMC, will I be put on a reg force or a Pres CAP?, anyone have any idea on that one ???



Hey Marksman,

There is no Pres CAP anymore, only the Reg force CAP. I did it last summer and it is a pretty tough go but a great time nonetheless. It seemed to me that they liked to keep the RMC candidates together, (not sure if it's on purpose, or they all get loaded at the same time) so hopefully you will get loaded with your classmates. Good luck


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## AmphibousAssult

Thanks Foxman thats what I wanted to hear.


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## Joe Blow

There are some great threads about CAP here.  I'd like to revive this one with a quick question.

We are currently wondering about moving the whole fam-damily out to New Brunswick when I hit CAP.  

I am wondering about:
CAP length (I heard they were shortening it due to the changes in BOTC), and
Weekends... off or on?  ...Or is it the same "you might get the weekend off if you're good boys and girls" type stuff.

...Generally speaking is it worth the while?  There are great reasons for my wife and son to stay where they are now.  If I'm just going to be on the base for 3 solid months it might be better for them to remain here.  If I can see them every weekend (after a while) they would rather come along.

Any help is appreciated.  Thx.


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## Redeye

Length - 11 weeks.  Haven't heard anything about shortening it but everything changes fast.

Weekends on/off - depends on your staff.  Generally weekends off, unless you're in the field, which happens during the patrolling/defensive module (I think it's now Mod 4).

Is it worth moving your family?  Probably a personal decision.  It may well be a huge distraction to have them around when you won't have a ton of time to spend with them, but really it's up to you.  You may as well keep them where they are if their lives are stable where they are.  They're going to have to get comfortable with separation anyhow.  There's normally a long weekend in there, which is when most of the people I was on course with went off to wherever to see their families, or brought them out to New Brunswick.


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## s.cradoc

These threads are amazing, everything I ever needed to know about CAP....

I'm a reservist, just got in.

I'm out as well this summer for the entire 5 modules.  I am wondering if the dates have been posted yet, or if anyone has any idea when they will finish.  I'm off to do a weekend GMT in March/April, followed by a short BMQ (I think) in May.  I've been told this a couple of weeks of phase one, although no one is quite sure.  It's then directly off from the May training to CAP, which is where the questions come in.  I understand that last year CAP ended very early in September, but as I'm back in University in late August I was hoping that I could get on course by the first week of June (the 4Th?) finishing up the 17Th of August.  Although, if there is a May start date that would be great as well...

I'm brand new to army.ca, a big thanks out to all those answering these queries.

S.C.


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## ra2xz

From what I understand, there is 2 courses this year, one 04 June 07 - 16 Aug 07, Then from 18 Jun 07 - 31 Aug 07.
I also understand, (someone correct me if i am wrong) that CAP is in Alershot this year, not Gagetown (which I was surprised to hear)
There was also talk that that they revamped the whole shooting match to prepare officers for the "Sandbox" Can anyone verify this?


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## scoutfinch

Hmmmm.  Should have read the whole thread before responding to a post that was 2 years old!


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## scoutfinch

s.cradoc said:
			
		

> These threads are amazing, everything I ever needed to know about CAP....
> 
> I'm a reservist, just got in.
> 
> I'm out as well this summer for the entire 5 modules.  I am wondering if the dates have been posted yet, or if anyone has any idea when they will finish.  I'm off to do a weekend GMT in March/April, followed by a short BMQ (I think) in May.  I've been told this a couple of weeks of phase one, although no one is quite sure.  It's then directly off from the May training to CAP, which is where the questions come in.  I understand that last year CAP ended very early in September, but as I'm back in University in late August I was hoping that I could get on course by the first week of June (the 4Th?) finishing up the 17Th of August.  Although, if there is a May start date that would be great as well...
> 
> I'm brand new to army.ca, a big thanks out to all those answering these queries.
> 
> 
> S.C.



There were three Cap serials last year.  One ended in July, the other in August and the other in December.  It sounds like you are on the May to August one.


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## Redeye

CAP for RMC types in 2005 started end of May - probably the same now.


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## vonGarvin

Although there are several CAP serials throughout the year, the "busy" season is from around 28 May to 10 Aug (2007) for this year.  There may be a variation by one week or two, either way, but that is the "standard" window.  Yes, RMC ends later and starts earlier than civvie U, but your advantage is that you have more time to "get ready" for training in May (and April, when classes end) 


(I know, I lived that life for 4 years when I went to UWO in London: Go Stangs Go!)


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## vonGarvin

Piper said:
			
		

> So on average, start time is late-ish May?


The dates I gave are the dates for the majority of the summer run courses.  Due to a variety of things (including CAP being mandatory for all army officers now, instead of just the combat arms as it was when I went through), CAP is run year round now at the Infantry School.  So, as an ROTP/UTPNCM officer candidate, you can pretty well bank on those dates.  Press your ULO (if such a thing still exists) for a course loading message.  Granted, I usually didn't get mine until a week prior to course starting.  But, back then, they were only run during that time.


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## Wookilar

Piper,

A new training schedule just went up in our lounge today (maybe yesterday). I will check it in the morning and see if it goes to May. We are already planning our summer training schedules for all UT's here, so I know the Lt will have the dates squirreled away. I'll post asap.

See you in Gagetown.

Wook

Edit: Our schedule here says 22 May 07, course starts. Can't wait.


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## s.cradoc

This is great, a cheers to everyone.

If I understand this correctly, I'm able to get on for a possible 22nd of May start date.  I'm wondering the difference between GMT, and BMQ if anyone happens to know.  Is the GMT is really necessary, as I'll be doing this shortened version of BMQ (I've been told about 20 days?) come May.  This was I figure if I can get into BMQ by the 1st of May, I can jump directly into CAP for the 22nd of May, with a finish around the 31st of July for my courses this summer.  I've got an early start date for Uni in August, I wanted to make sure that I'm back in time.

S.C.


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## vonGarvin

You mention GMT and BMQ, which I do believe are for NCMs only.  CAP is for officers in the army, and stands for "Common Army Phase".  I don't know what reservists do prior to CAP.  They used to call it RESO...


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## Redeye

They do BMQ first (with NCMs) - which I think is wrong but what do I know - then on to a course that basically covers what RESO did in terms of leadership and battle procedure/small party tasks, then on to CAP.


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## Zell_Dietrich

Well,  untill recently I understood that Officers did Basic officer training course BOTC I & BOTC II then did CAP.  BMQ can be used to subsitute BOTC I.  There has been a change to the name BMOQ.  I have no idea what is going on with BMOQ for BOTC II, but I know that CAP is required for all.

I thought RESO was an entry plan for reservists.

All I know is I'm looking forward to CAP this summer.   :warstory:


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## Meridian

Zell_Dietrich said:
			
		

> Well,  untill recently I understood that Officers did Basic officer training course BOTC I & BOTC II then did CAP.  BMQ can be used to subsitute BOTC I.  There has been a change to the name BMOQ.  I have no idea what is going on with BMOQ for BOTC II, but I know that CAP is required for all.



There is no BOTC I and BOTC for the Reg Force, but many people have used these terms (probably because they were once used that way).  From what instructors told me, BOTC was the old name for all of "Phase 1".  

In the Regs, Phase 1 consists of IAP (Initial Assessment Phase) & BOTP (Basic Officer Training Phase)  & (apparently now) SLT (Second Language Training).
So, in a sense, BOTC = IAP & BOTP combined.  & I suppose now, SLT (where required).

When I was looking at enrollment in the PRes, I was told that I could either join a RegF IAP/BOTP course during the summer, or tag along for  BMQ with the NCMs and have that qualify as my IAP,  since BMQ is an equivalent for IAP.  BOTP on the other hand Id still have to do in some other form or another.

Is this BMOQ supposed to be IAP, BOTP and SLT all combined into one? Or is it just a PRes creation, or just rumint?


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## medaid

OKAY! Here in 39CBG at least, ALL officer candidates will do BMQ when ever the course is available. the Second course for a PRes officer currently is BOTP2. This course was being runned out of Gagetown in the CTC Inf School for the past several years. The third course is CAP. All of this will complete the PRes Officer (Land) and Purple trades Phase I training. After this is up to the respective trades to handle their trainings.


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## Quag

Does anyone know for sure when the CAP course will be run this summer.  (FOR SURE)?

Thanks


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## Nfld Sapper

Best to ask via COC or your Training WO.


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## Quag

Nfld Sapper said:
			
		

> Best to ask via COC or your Training WO.



In progess, however I have found from previous experience that army.ca can tell me things faster haha.


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## Cardstonkid

My training WO gave me the following information: 

 According to the Army National Calendar CAP takes place on the following dates:

CAP MOD 1 - 5 START 28 May 07 END 10 Aug 07  - 3 Anglo Serials

                1 - 5 START 18 Jun 07 END 31 Aug 07 - 3 Anglo Serials

                1 - 5 START 17 Sep 07 END 30 Nov 07 -  2 Bilingual serials 2 Anglo Serials 

Each Mod is 2 weeks long.  IE    MOD 1 28 may - 8 Jun

                                                         2 11 Jun - 22 Jun

                                                         3 25 Jun - 6 Jul

                                                         4   9 Jul - 20 Jul

                                                         5 23 Jul - 10 Aug

I am wondering if CAP is now the same for reg force and reserve members? It would seem so. 

Is there normally a long weekend where one can fly out their wife for a conjugal visit? (Or as my wife calls it the "you left me with a 6 month old baby and 3 school aged kids for 11 weeks so you better fly me out so I can kick your A## visit!) 

I am scheduled to do the 11 weeks starting on Sept. 17th. I am a bit worried about being lost in the woods (hey I am from the bald arse plains) and the humid cold. I was only in NB once and I have never been so cold in my life. (It was Septemberrrrrr :crybaby


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## Quag

I'll be with you Cardstonkid...

I assume your Reserves?


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## Cardstonkid

You presume correctly. You?


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## Quag

Regular Force.

Same course though.


----------



## Redeye

Same course Reg and Reserve.  Normally Canada Day is a long weekend and leave passes are issued.


----------



## scoutfinch

My husband and youngest came from Halifax to visit every weekend.  Leave passes were required any time we weren't going to be sleeping in the shacks whether it was inside or outside the geographical radius normally requiring a leave pass.  There were the typical travel restrictions on Fridays after coming out of the field (ie. no driving for 12 hours or something like that) -- not even to Fredericton; however, there was no enforcement of the rule.


----------



## Franko

SamIAm said:
			
		

> There were the typical travel restrictions on Fridays after coming out of the field (ie. no driving for 12 hours or something like that) -- not even to Fredericton; however, there was no enforcement of the rule.



Get into an accident during that period of no travel, or get caught by the DS of your course and see what happens. 

The rules are there because a few years ago some students were involved in a vehicular accident that was caused by driver fatigue.

They had just gotten out of the field after an ex and were pretty much the equivelant of being drunk because of the exhaustive nature of the ex.

Regardless if you are driving or not, wait the 12 hours. It's not worth getting caught.

Regards


----------



## scoutfinch

Hey -- up until 11 months ago, I was an insurance lawyer.  I agree with you 100%.  I am just telling you that the rule was stated but not enforced.


----------



## Meridian

Redeye said:
			
		

> Same course Reg and Reserve.  Normally Canada Day is a long weekend and leave passes are issued.



Except for IAP/BOTP.  At least when I did IAP/BOTP.  Canada Day was a working day, and we were in the Field, actually.


----------



## scoutfinch

Read my last about weekends and holidays as per last summer.


----------



## CdnArtyWife

Don't count on the leave pass being issued for the Canada Day long weekend. I'm not saying it won't happen, just don't count on it.

My hubby did courses over that timeframe two years in a row, and he did not have the long weekend off either one. He did, however, get his "deferred holiday" at the end of the course... :

It depends on the course, the DS, and (in my experience) the will of God.


----------



## medaid

lol the DS dont work by the will of God, they work by the will of their Platoon Commanders  ;D. I think to many the only god there is, is the CDS


----------



## scoutfinch

People should note that CAP is taught in 2 week modules now which means people come and go every two weeks.  As a result, barring field time or CB incidents, most weekends will be free.

You can't provide an answer regarding current CAPs by looking at previous CAPs before modularization.


----------



## kielbam

Can anyone provide some information as to the differences in training between taking:

a) BMQ, SQ, BIQ - for NCM Infantry Resevists

b) BMQ, CAP - for Infantry Officer Reservist

In terms of learning all of the small party tasks, weapons handling, etc. that were discussed in detail in the SQ thread, will someone going into an Officer role (who is currently in BMQ) get the same training on the CAP course this summer?

I am on BMQ, to be on CAP this summer. Just want to know if I am missing on anything by not having taken the NCM courses before going commisioned? Will the CAP cover all aspects of the other NCM courses (+ much more) or is it a whole different ball game? :warstory:
Thanks


----------



## medaid

CAP = Common Army Phase

Before you can reach CAP, you have to first have BMQ, AND BOTP2 (or what ever they call it today)

BOTP2 = Small party taskings, and all the things you need to do for basic battle procedures and all that good stuff.

CAP will include an SQ version for officers. You will be taught, all your small arms in a platoon. Your platoon support weapons, and your personal weapons all over again. No, you're not missing anything by not having taken NCM courses academically. 

The only thing I can think of that you'll miss is having the ability to think like your troops, and an officer at the same time. What I'm trying to say is that, when you've been there, you're less likely to make your troops do stupid redundant things before thinking. Because you'll know how much you hated doing that, and how much your troops will hate doing that. That is only my opinion. I am not saying that those officers who have never been in the ranks have ordered their troops to do stupid things. What I am saying is that depending on the type of person you are, you may benefit from having time in the ranks. 

To answer your main question of will CAP cover all aspects of the other NCM courses. The answer is no. It will give you the knowledge to plan road moves and command a section, however, it will not teach you anything about what your troops does. My advice is that after your course this summer, if you're posted to a platoon position as a 2IC, or even a Pl Comd is to listen to your Pl WO and your Snr NCOs. You'll learn allot from them that will be the fillers between your course knowledge and command practicality.


----------



## kielbam

Much appreciated response- more or less addresses what I am trying to ask.
On BMQ now as I said, will be doing BOTP2 and CAP back to back once BMQ is done this summer.

Next related question- perhaps not completely related to the CAP course. To speak quite frankly:
- Will I be at a major disadvantage for not having time within the ranks and coming out with an Officer rank? I mean this in terms of general leadership, respect, etc. within the platoon- particularly NCMs.
 How can this be mitigated?

For some reason I keep thinking that ideally I should be doing SQ, BIQ this summer, getting all the training out of the way, spending that half year or year in the ranks, then moving onto BOTP2 and CAP and taking on more of a leadership position.
Any thoughts or comments on these 2 paths?


----------



## medaid

kielbam said:
			
		

> Next related question- perhaps not completely related to the CAP course. To speak quite frankly:
> - Will I be at a major disadvantage for not having time within the ranks and coming out with an Officer rank? I mean this in terms of general leadership, respect, etc. within the platoon- particularly NCMs.
> How can this be mitigated?



Listen to the advice of your senior ncos. Like I said before, depending on your type of personality, you may or may not have been disadvantaged severely for not having time in the ranks.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

MedTech said:
			
		

> Listen to the advice of your senior ncos. Like I said before, depending on your type of personality, you may or may not have been disadvantaged severely for not having time in the ranks.



Also, its good for "new" Tp Ldr's, Pl Cmdrs, etc to get the knowledge and experience and advice of more senior officers at times.  I would at times recommend a junior officer to the Sqn BC for advice if it was more of an "officer" issue than a "here is what happens in a recce tp" issue.

Up and down the CoC works...but yes, listen to the wisdom and (cough cough) guidance of the WOs and Sgts too.


----------



## medaid

hehehehe yes MRM I meant the 'new' platoon level leaderships that pop in and out of our lives regularly. *ooops* I'm a the platoon level leadership... but! I also listen to what I preach, I take the advice of my Snr NCOs very seriously


----------



## vonGarvin

One correction (minor it may seem).  On CAP, you do not learn the platoon support weapons.  You learn that on IODP 1.1 (dismounted platoon commander).  On CAP you only learn of the section weapons.


----------



## scoutfinch

Similarly, CAP is about section tactics, not platoon attacks.


----------



## medaid

ooops sorry ... that's my SQ side creepy up. Thanks for correcting it


----------



## kielbam

Can someone please post or email me the:

a) Kit list
b) Notes/Lessons (ie. powerpoints)
c) Course Timetable

For this summer's CAP?
I don't have access to the DIN and cannot find this stuff on the infantry school website.


----------



## armyvern

kielbam said:
			
		

> Can someone please post or email me the:
> 
> a) Kit list
> b) Notes/Lessons (ie. powerpoints)
> c) Course Timetable
> 
> For this summer's CAP?
> I don't have access to the DIN and cannot find this stuff on the infantry school website.



a) As per the joining instructions you would receive, bring ALL the kit you have been issued IAW D01-301 (Basic Field Ops Clothing Scale). That's all your field kit, and all your DEU. If you are already entitled to it you should be reporting with it already issued to you. Visit your supporting clothing stores, get a print out of your docs, and pack it all. Also ask them to set you up with an appointment to get issued the kit you are entitled to but haven't received yet. If you aren't entitled to it, your clothing is not going to issue it, even if it is on the scale but the scale notes deem you "not entitled."

And no worries, if you aren't entitled to it yet or become entitled once on the CAP, you will be visiting CSG Gagetown en masse with the rest of your course to be issued it during week 1. Please don't come in saying "I need one of these issued because I left mine at home...."

b)  Just confirmed with 9er, and these are not handed out to candidates.

c)  Also confirmed with 9er, timetable is not handed out to candidates pre-course. It's always subject to change due to whatever circumstances are occuring at the time so whatever time-table you are generally provided with upon beginning the course may still fluctuate.


----------



## kielbam

Thanks alot,

the course notes/powerpoint request is as per some members of this board who said it would make life a bit easier during classroom sessions.

As for the kit I wasn't issued yet, I know I am deficient in tons of stuff, as I am only doing the BMQ now and the clothing stores don't seem to give 2 shits about what I am missing or not (other than the very minimum of kit req'd for BMQ) since they aren't aware of my summer course plans. I'll be in touch with my unit staff this week to sort this out before its too late.

I have no DEU issued yet as well, hope it won't be a problem getting it sorted out.

Thanks for your help, please pass along any other information that you feel may be beneficial for CAP candidates this summer.


----------



## scoutfinch

You will not require your DEUs.  Your section mates will thank you if you don't have them because they are only required for the section inspection standard.  If you don't have them, they won't be inspected on them either.


----------



## armyvern

kielbam said:
			
		

> I have no DEU issued yet as well, hope it won't be a problem getting it sorted out.



Then CSG Gagetown will be ordering your initial issue of DEU for you.


----------



## Wookilar

Piper,

email in the ether.

Wook


----------



## Kunu

Piper said:
			
		

> Dredging this thread up again, to ask a question that always gets asked.
> 
> Can someone please email me the joining instructions for CAP? I asked my SEM, she said email my ULO. I emailed my ULO, he said find a computer with access to the DIN. But I don't have access to a DIN computer yet and I don't know when I will.
> 
> If at all possible, it would help me plan if someone could email them to me if possible.



Me too, similar story  ;D

My email's kunaal.majmudar@gmail.com.

Thanks!


----------



## Wookilar

Kilo Mike,

Sent this morning to your gmail.

Wook


----------



## Zell_Dietrich

kielbam said:
			
		

> Next related question- perhaps not completely related to the CAP course. To speak quite frankly:
> - Will I be at a major disadvantage for not having time within the ranks and coming out with an Officer rank? I mean this in terms of general leadership, respect, etc. within the platoon- particularly NCMs.
> How can this be mitigated?
> 
> For some reason I keep thinking that ideally I should be doing SQ, BIQ this summer, getting all the training out of the way, spending that half year or year in the ranks, then moving onto BOTP2 and CAP and taking on more of a leadership position.
> Any thoughts or comments on these 2 paths?



It can be mitigated by being good at your job.   

Yes,  I know many NCOs who insist that to be a good officer one needs to spend time in the ranks.  I've heard NCOs talk about an officer, in a not so nice way, then when they heard he was 'from the ranks' they suddenly wanted to give him another chance.  Having been in the ranks before gives many officers allot of credibility.  With that said, I know a few really good officers that did BOTC I, II and CAP and have earned the respect of their troops.  

Conversely, I know one officer in particular,  who comments on how he was commissioned from the ranks every 15 minutes (yes same guy as above). He can't be wrong because he 'was commissioned from the ranks'.  He refuses to admit he is doesn't know something, shifts blame and displays many other undesirable qualities, and when confronted with it, simply parrots out 'I come from the ranks'.  (He isn't the most mocked officer I've ever seen,  but I have a few really really amusing examples of "failures of the officer board screening process".) Actually now that I think of it,  I know another guy, a 2Lt that was on my course who passed BMQ/SQ, who did the same - but I can't comment on how his troops view him.  

One's initial training is just that.  Initial. The real test of one as a leader is when leading.  Pay attention,  respect the dignity of your troops, promote their welfare, don't abuse your power/authority etc.  If you honestly put in an effort to be good at what you do,  you will likely earn the respect of your peers.


----------



## Rowshambow

Zell, nice post, I had the same thing in my old Regiment, some officers lead very well never having been in the ranks! 

For kielbam, if you do the Basic, and then SQ and then trade qualification, that might take you longer than the summer (unless you are talking about the reserves) and then if you think they would let you just move into officer training you are mistaken. You would have to finish your contract which could be 3-4 years depending, and then most Commissioning programs require you to be minimum rank of Cpl and be QL4 qualified. Then you need to apply and go into a competition and then you might not make it for the trade you are trying for. I would think it would be best to apply for officer right away and see where that gets you. Whatever the decision, good luck!


----------



## medaid

oh my...  I'm actually scared of knowing how my troops view me now... damnations.


----------



## Zell_Dietrich

MedTech said:
			
		

> oh my...  I'm actually scared of knowing how my troops view me now... damnations.



(this is off on a bit of an aside)

I don't know how it is in other regiments,  but (as a Jr Officer) I have never been in any doubt as to the opinions the Senior and non Senior NCOs have of me.  Not for one instant have I ever wondered "what does the Sgt think I should do this?"  (I'm exaggerating of course)  But my basic point is most NCOs will freely let you know what is what and if you take the time to really listen to what they are saying it can save you all kinds of grief.  

It has been my experience that people want to respect you.  People want to look at you and say "he is a good officer".  You just have to give them a reason to think that.  On the flip side,  if you've gotten a rap as a ... less than inspiring and skillfull leader,  I have seen people turn it around.  My honest opinion is that if you allow those around you to give you honest feedback,  it is very hard for you to go wrong.  (I'm not even going to put in here about not allowing NCOs to adversely controll you with advice - I have never seen it happen, I've done it to my Boss in Civi-world though)

Back to CAP - I am soo excited to go this summer.  (I feel like a kid again, I'll admit I got butterflies)  I know a few good officers, who had a bit of a rough go with it,  so I'll just have to do my best.  Who else is hitting gagetown this summer?


----------



## medaid

Ah! I'm not actually worried. I'm one of those natural leaders that all the troops love and... blah.. blah.. *trails off with the self boast, as he realizes it's all a lie*  


All seriousness. CAP is a good course, it was fun and informative. Only wished I finished it in one go!


----------



## Zell_Dietrich

MedTech said:
			
		

> Ah! I'm not actually worried. I'm one of those natural leaders that all the troops love and... blah.. blah.. *trails off with the self boast, as he realizes it's all a lie*
> All seriousness. CAP is a good course, it was fun and informative. Only wished I finished it in one go!



I hope I'm able to do all of CAP this summer.

I kinda knew you had no reason to worry.  ;-)  Everyone I've seen I'd classify as a bad leader (officer and NCO) had one thing in common,  they didn't focus on actually being good at what they're doing, insted tending to their own concerns.  For example,  earlier today a MCpl came in to give a lecture,  he wanted to draw a clock (for some reason he wanted to explain arch's of fire).  In front of the white board there was a white screen for projector.... he pulled out a dry marker and proceeded to draw a circle on the pull down screen.

After he realised what he did,  he simply pulled up the screen and then wrote on the white board.  After he mumbled about overlapping at 11 and 2 he turned around.  He stopped and asked why we were laughing.  Yes we did do pushups because we were snickering.  For the rest of the lecture everything he said was tainted by what he did. I managed to keep myself under controll until he started to talk about paying attention to details.  

If he would have simply gone "oh man,  that was dumb" and moved on.  It would have simply been that.  But because he tried to cover it up,  tried to install an air of infallibility it made it funnier.

I've been told that Mod 1 is the ranges.  Any heads up as to what to expect?


----------



## cf-gf

My bf is currently in Gagetown finishing CAP. He's a young OCdt Cameron Highlander reservist (I don't know if this makes a difference to what kind of training he has to go through). I was just wondering if anyone who'd experienced what he's doing had any ideas for helping him through all this. Most of the time he finds it bearable but as I can't really understand what he's going through it'd be nice to have some suggestions on things that helped everyone else feel a bit better (obviously specifics are different for everyone but even that might help).


----------



## medaid

Just be rerady for him when he wants to talk or call you. There will be times when he'll call just to hear your voice, how your day was or hat you've been doing. Since life is almost normal for you, he'll want to hear you laugh and joke about your day. It's a good time to try and talk to him about his experiences, support him and despite it being hard to undertsand, try. There will definitely be moments where he'll act like a little kid to get ttention from you, whine, complain, sound like he's just looking for a fight. He's not... Well not really. CAP is stressful, but bearable. There will be moments where hewill be almost unbearable, but just keep in mind that it's probably not you. Anyways, hope that helps.

When I went through CAP my better half was wonderful. She'll try and stop doing something so that we could chat even for 5 mins. It's not often that candidates get a chance to call home.


----------



## Cardstonkid

I finished CAP last fall in Gagetown. I am a Reservist and I did the 3 month course with the one week pre-CAP and a two week wait for my serial to begin. I am married with 4 kids and two step kids, so I think my wife deserves a medal. CAP is at times pretty tough on the spirits and the body, but it really isn't that bad overall. The biggest thing for me was to hear my wife's voice, to find out what was going on and knowing she was going to make it. I knew she didn't know what I was doing, frankly she really doesn't care to much about Army stuff but I understood she knew why I was in Gagetown and she not only respected me for it but she agreed that what I was doing was worth her sacrifice too. 

CAP will be over before you know it. My time away from my wife made us both appreciate each other more and it helped us grow our relationship. Knowing she has my back makes me a better soldier. I found out just how important that was on CAP.


----------



## Quag

Alright, you guys want the low down on CAP?

Here it is:

1) It's not as hard as everyone will make it out to be.  The old military tradition of saying how "hard" it was when they went through seems to really show through on this "super tough" course.  Everyone wants to toot their own horn after having completed the course, thinking its sooooooo hard etc....  Don't buy the hype.  It's a challenging military course, but one that can be easily obtained if you have the right mind frame.  It's slightly more than average when it comes to both mental and physical demands.  Don't let anyone fool you, this is by no means a "hard" course, nor for the combat arms people will it be their toughest course.

2) Keep a positive attitude and prepare for the worst.  This way, when something comes along, its not as bad as you thought it was going to be. 

3) Have fun.  CAP was the most enjoyable course I've had.  Keep and open mind, and you will excel and have a blast on the course!

Cheers!


----------



## DannyITR

I was just wondering if anyone can see a change happening in the amount of time spent on course for training? I'm a reservist with a wife and a kid on the way. There is no way I could leave for 3 months. The max I would do is one module of two weeks at a time but even then, two weeks leaving a pregnant wife at home alone is unacceptable to me and will probably result in me never completing training.

What would be acceptable is Mon-Fri 08:00-20:00 and then when you really need to sleep in the field you sleep in the field for a few nights. I understand this is the army and war isn't accommodating but I also understand that the army is looking for soldiers - good soldiers who have an education and who probably could make it pretty well in the private sector and these people can't get away from their families so easily. There is no reason the training couldn't be re-organized as described above and be just as effective in my opinion.


----------



## George Wallace

DannyITR said:
			
		

> I was just wondering if anyone can see a change happening in the amount of time spent on course for training? I'm a reservist with a wife and a kid on the way. There is no way I could leave for 3 months. The max I would do is one module of two weeks at a time but even then, two weeks leaving a pregnant wife at home alone is unacceptable to me and will probably result in me never completing training.
> 
> What would be acceptable is Mon-Fri 08:00-20:00 and then when you really need to sleep in the field you sleep in the field for a few nights. I understand this is the army and war isn't accommodating but I also understand that the army is looking for soldiers - good soldiers who have an education and who probably could make it pretty well in the private sector and these people can't get away from their families so easily. There is no reason the training couldn't be re-organized as described above and be just as effective in my opinion.



I can't believe what I just read.  I remember being a Reservist.  I remember being on Phase Training.  More than one summer.  Three months was the norm.  No Hotels.  No Tennis Courts.  No Golf clubs.  Lots of long hours, hard work, and driving the body.  

If you can not find the time and dedication to be a Reservist and become a Trained Reservist, then perhaps that is not the Part Time Job for you.

Remember, one of the main purposes of the Reserves is to augment the Regular Force.  If you can't do that, then it is time for you to find something else.

Commitment.  Dedication.  Choices that everyone has to make.  What are your priorities?  Will you be able to commit to the CF as a useful member, or will you have to place your priorities into some other endeavour?  Your choice.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

I have to say, I agree with George on this one 100%.

There are many reasons why;  if you really want to hear them, I'll post them but I think most of the people who think the same way here *get them* and they don't need explaination.

If you want to be a part of the CF but can't commit to the Reserves and its training, maybe you could serve as a CIC Officer.

Train the way you fight; fight the way you train.  That does NOT include what you described above DannyITR.  Reserve soldiers, NCOs, WOs and Officers are fighting alongside their Reg Force comrades in places like Afghanistan.  There should be as close a situation to 'one standard' as possible.

I think you have a personal choice to make.

*edit

I took a look thru your posting history...and in it, I found this one sentence I thought was relevant to this topic.



> *The first you are taught in the military is keep the same standard. Makes sense to me*


----------



## DannyITR

Thanks for the replies. You both make a lot of sense and it seems I have some decisions to make.


----------



## navygirl/armywife

All the MODS are 2 weeks long and there is a total of 5 MODS. Alot of reservists do come for a mod here and a mod there. I would not recommend this way though. If you are with the course for all 5 mods you will get more out of it and you will  work better cohesively as a team if you do all the mods at once. And just a bit of advice, you only have so long to complete the course, you can't take your sweet time about it and say " Well I won't go on Mod 3 this year, I'll do it next year." I believe you have 5 years to complete it. And as for your spouse being pregnant, wait until she has the baby if that is your concern. I managed just fine being pregnant while the hubby was playing in the sandbox, not easy by any means, but manageable.


----------



## Redeye

Doing things that slowly simply won't work.  You could in theory get all the checks in the boxes, but as an officer in the Reserve you're looking at something like 26 weeks of training.  In two week blocks it will take you forever.  There are people who go through that way (and I had to do part of my Phase III course in two week blocks because of my day job - but I fought hard to get to finish it in one shot and I'm glad because I got a lot more out of it that way.  

As a Reservist, while you may have a lot more flexibility than a member of the Regular Force you are still expected to be able - and most importantly - willing to step up and do the job should the need arise.  If you think being away from your pregnant wife for two weeks is a really intolerable hardship then I suspect you really, truly have a lot of thinking to do before you decide if this is the right course of action for you.  It is part of the nature of the beast.  It's not just a social club after all - we have the task of being a force generator for the Regs, including trained officers.  If you can't see yourself able to make such a small commitment then you really have to assess whether tyou can meet the expectation.

I further suspect if you spent that long in the training system, you'll just become bored (because you're not all that useful to the unit) and quit anyhow.  I've seen it happen quite a bit, guys show up all keen but can't/won't make the sacrifices to get trained so they just pack it in.



			
				DannyITR said:
			
		

> Thanks for the replies. You both make a lot of sense and it seems I have some decisions to make.


----------



## Infanteer

DannyITR said:
			
		

> There is no way I could leave for 3 months. The max I would do is one module of two weeks at a time but even then, two weeks leaving a pregnant wife at home alone is unacceptable to me and will probably result in me never completing training.
> 
> What would be acceptable is Mon-Fri 08:00-20:00 and then when you really need to sleep in the field you sleep in the field for a few nights. I understand this is the army and war isn't accommodating but I also understand that the army is looking for soldiers - good soldiers who have an education and who probably could make it pretty well in the private sector and these people can't get away from their families so easily. There is no reason the training couldn't be re-organized as described above and be just as effective in my opinion.



You need to reevaluate the term service and what it means to put on the uniform....


----------



## exgunnertdo

In many ways it does need to be a family decision.  

My husband went to Bosnia when our son was 19 days old.  He was gone on predeployment training for a lot of my pregnancy.  It was just sheer luck that he was there for the birth, as our son was 5 weeks early.  My sister was going to be my labour coach, I had parents and friends lined up for help.  It can be done.

We still travel a lot for work and there is always the potential for deployments, of course.  But in contrast, my neighbour can't fathom our life - her husband has never spent a night away, and the only nights she hasn't been at home with her kids is when she was in for surgery last year, in eight years of parenting.  (not military, obviously)

If military life will not work for your wife, then don't do it!


----------



## jeffb

Back to some questions about CAP... 

- Does anyone know what the CAP course dates are for 2009? 
- I'm on the Jan. BMOQ ending 17 April, as it seems that there is generally a May CAP, I would presume that the idea is to go from BMOQ to CAP a couple of weeks later. However, I can also imagine that there might be a backlog of people from earlier BMOQ's awaiting CAP.  In short, if the answer to my first question is May, then should I expect a May course or should I expect to spend the summer in a PAT platoon? 

Thanks in advance.


----------



## navygirl/armywife

There will be CAP courses ran starting in January/Febuaryish, May/ Juneish,  then some more in September.  Usually 2 to 4 per every winter, summer, fall serial. As for the exact month and day they start I don't remember off the top of my head. I couldn't begin to remember all the start times of the CAP crses if I tried.  ;D


----------



## BullDog

Some CAP dates, according to the 09/10 Draft Army National Calendar:


20 May - 24 July
1 Jun - 7 Aug
15 Jun - 21 Aug

The next CAP courses after these are slated to begin in September.

Hope this helps.


----------



## JesseWZ

JeffB
I had guys on my CAP this past summer that finished BMOQ in Winter (Jan or Feb I believe) and were in Holding at Gagetown or wherever their trades school was until 1 June when our course started. Its possible that you could be assigned the 2IC Photo Copier Paper Replacement Platoon position for quite awhile until they can slot you in.


----------



## littlelizzard

:yellow: I have a question regarding CAP and moving a family! First of all I am told CAP will start May 01 then I hear it will start May 20 when is the start date :

Then I hear they won't move your family until your finished CAP but yet the Garrison says yes they move your family due to the fact you have a posting in Gagetown so what is the real story, does anyone seem to know :


----------



## frostvelun

I was wondering if anyone had access to the updates and/or final CAP dates for this summer to fall. (IE. May - October start dates). I am currently away from the unit and our OPs WO is busy like crazy - emails have thus far not been replied to.

As well, I was wondering what the order of the modules was and the basic info they consisted of? I have heard of Mod 5 being taught first but that seems counter-intuitive. Searches on army.ca haven't been super effective yet either.

If anyone could help out, I'd be grateful.


----------



## George Wallace

Off the top of my head, having booked candidates, I know that there are two Serials starting on 15 June (Mod 1 to 5) running through to mid August.  There are a couple Franco Serials starting at the same time I think, and they begin with Mod 5 then do Mod 1 to 4.  It could be due to availability of Trg facilities.  As for all the other Serials being run, someone with access to the Army Trg Lists will have to come online and fill you in.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 1 0905 (Mod 5 Runs First)	DP1	REG/PRES	15/Jun/09	26/Jun/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 2 0905	DP1	REG/PRES	1/Jun/09	12/Jun/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 3 0905	DP1	REG/PRES	13/Jul/09	24/Jul/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 4 0905	DP1	REG/PRES	29/Jun/09	10/Jul/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 5 0905	DP1	REG/PRES	20/May/09	29/May/09

COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 1 0906 (Mod 5 Runs First)	DP1	REG/PRES	15/Jun/09	26/Jun/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 2 0906	DP1	REG/PRES	1/Jun/09	12/Jun/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 3 0906	DP1	REG/PRES	13/Jul/09	24/Jul/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 4 0906	DP1	REG/PRES	29/Jun/09	10/Jul/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 5 0906	DP1	REG/PRES	20/May/09	29/May/09

COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 1 0907 (Mod 5 Runs First)	DP1	REG/PRES	29/Jun/09	10/Jul/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 2 0907	DP1	REG/PRES	15/Jun/09	26/Jun/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 3 0907	DP1	REG/PRES	27/Jul/09	7/Aug/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 4 0907	DP1	REG/PRES	13/Jul/09	24/Jul/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 5 0907	DP1	REG/PRES	1/Jun/09	12/Jun/09

COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 1 0908 (Mod 5 Runs First)	DP1	REG/PRES	29/Jun/09	10/Jul/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 2 0908	DP1	REG/PRES	15/Jun/09	26/Jun/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 3 0908	DP1	REG/PRES	27/Jul/09	7/Aug/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 4 0908	DP1	REG/PRES	13/Jul/09	24/Jul/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 5 0908	DP1	REG/PRES	1/Jun/09	12/Jun/09

COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 1 0909 (SQFT) (Mod 5 Runs First)	DP1	REG/PRES	22/Jun/09	4/Jul/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 2 0909 (SQFT)	DP1	REG/PRES	6/Jul/09	17/Jul/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 3 0909 (SQFT)	DP1	REG/PRES	20/Jul/09	31/Jul/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 4 0909 (SQFT)	DP1	REG/PRES	3/Aug/09	14/Aug/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 5 0909 (SQFT)	DP1	REG/PRES	8/Jun/09	19/Jun/09

COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 1 0910  (SQFT) (Mod 5 Runs First)	DP1	REG/PRES	22/Jun/09	4/Jul/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 2 0910 (SQFT)	DP1	REG/PRES	6/Jul/09	17/Jul/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 3 0910 (SQFT)	DP1	REG/PRES	20/Jul/09	31/Jul/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 4 0910 (SQFT)	DP1	REG/PRES	3/Aug/09	14/Aug/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 5 0910 (SQFT)	DP1	REG/PRES	8/Jun/09	19/Jun/09

COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 1 0911 (Mod 5 Runs First)	DP1	REG/PRES	13/Jul/09	24/Jul/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 2 0911	DP1	REG/PRES	29/Jun/09	10/Jul/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 3 0911	DP1	REG/PRES	10/Aug/09	21/Aug/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 4 0911	DP1	REG/PRES	27/Jul/09	7/Aug/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 5 0911	DP1	REG/PRES	15/Jun/09	26/Jun/09

COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 1 0912(Mod 5 Runs First)	DP1	REG/PRES	13/Jul/09	24/Jul/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 2 0912	DP1	REG/PRES	29/Jun/09	10/Jul/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 3 0912	DP1	REG/PRES	10/Aug/09	21/Aug/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 4 0912	DP1	REG/PRES	27/Jul/09	7/Aug/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 5 0912	DP1	REG/PRES	15/Jun/09	26/Jun/09

COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 1 0913 (Mod 5 Runs First)	DP1	REG/PRES BIL	26/Oct/09	6/Nov/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 2 0913	DP1	REG/PRES	13/Oct/09	23/Oct/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 3 0913	DP1	REG/PRES	23/Nov/09	4/Dec/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 4 0913	DP1	REG/PRES	9/Nov/09	20/Nov/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 5 0913	DP1	REG/PRES	28/Sep/09	9/Oct/09

COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 1 0914 (Mod 5 Runs First)	DP1	REG/PRES	26/Oct/09	6/Nov/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 2 0914	DP1	REG/PRES	13/Oct/09	23/Oct/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 3 0914	DP1	REG/PRES	23/Nov/09	4/Dec/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 4 0914	DP1	REG/PRES	9/Nov/09	20/Nov/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 5 0914	DP1	REG/PRES	28/Sep/09	9/Oct/09

COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 1 1001 (Mod 5 Runs First)	DP1	REG/PRES	1/Mar/10	12/Mar/10
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 2 1001	DP1	REG/PRES	15/Feb/10	26/Feb/10
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 3 1001	DP1	REG/PRES	29/Mar/10	9/Apr/10
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 4 1001	DP1	REG/PRES	15/Mar/10	26/Mar/10
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 5 1001	DP1	REG/PRES	25/Jan/10	12/Feb/10

COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 1 1002 (Mod 5 Runs First)	DP1	REG/PRES	1/Mar/10	12/Mar/10
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 2 1002	DP1	REG/PRES	15/Feb/10	26/Feb/10
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 3 1002	DP1	REG/PRES	29/Mar/10	9/Apr/10
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 4 1002	DP1	REG/PRES	15/Mar/10	26/Mar/10
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 5 1002	DP1	REG/PRES	25/Jan/10	12/Feb/10

COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 1 1003 (Mod 5 Runs First)	DP1	REG/PRES FRANCO 15/Mar/10	26/Mar/10
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 2 1003	DP1	REG/PRES	1/Mar/10	12/Mar/10
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 3 1003	DP1	REG/PRES	12/Apr/10	23/Apr/10
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 4 1003	DP1	REG/PRES	29/Mar/10	9/Apr/10
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 5 1003	DP1	REG/PRES	8/Feb/10	26/Feb/10


----------



## George Wallace

Now isn't that as confusing as f**k!  Trying to navigate that, makes my head spin.  Crse Codes and matching dates bounce all around the friggin place.  Couldn't someone with a few clues ( and not the guy with two clues; one being lost and the other out looking for him.) have written that so that the dates ran concurrently for each Crse Code?

For example; Does a candidate start with something like this after BMOQ in London ending 14 Jun 09:  

CAP Mod 5 0911  DP1    REG/PRES   15 Jun to 26 Jun  - - -      (runs first for some reason)

CAP Mod 1 0907  DP1    REG/PRES   29 Jun to 10 Jul

CAP Mod 2 Mod 2 NOT AVAILABLE   13 Jul to 24 Jul

CAP Mod 3 0907   DP1   REG/PRES   27 Jul to 7 Aug

CAP Mod 4 Not available until perhaps 2011 ? 


No wonder people are confused.






[EDIT TO ADD]



OR  is it something like this:



COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 5 0911   DP1   REG/PRES   15/Jun/09   26/Jun/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 2 0911   DP1   REG/PRES   29/Jun/09   10/Jul/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 1 0911 (Mod 5 Runs First)   DP1   REG/PRES   13/Jul/09   24/Jul/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 4 0911   DP1   REG/PRES   27/Jul/09   7/Aug/09
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 3 0911   DP1   REG/PRES   10/Aug/09   21/Aug/09


----------



## Nfld Sapper

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Now isn't that as confusing as f**k!  Trying to navigate that, makes my head spin.  Crse Codes and matching dates bounce all around the friggin place.  Couldn't someone with a few clues ( and not the guy with two clues; one being lost and the other out looking for him.) have written that so that the dates ran concurrently for each Crse Code?
> 
> For example; Does a candidate start with something like this after BMOQ in London ending 14 Jun 09:
> 
> CAP Mod 5 0911  DP1    REG/PRES   15 Jun to 26 Jun  - - -      (runs first for some reason)
> 
> CAP Mod 1 0907  DP1    REG/PRES   29 Jun to 10 Jul
> 
> CAP Mod 2 Mod 2 NOT AVAILABLE   13 Jul to 24 Jul
> 
> CAP Mod 3 0907   DP1   REG/PRES   27 Jul to 7 Aug
> 
> CAP Mod 4 Not available until perhaps 2011 ?
> 
> 
> No wonder people are confused.



Mr. Wallace did you forget your morning coffee  ;D

Why would you have a member bounce from course serial to course serial?

i.e. you have him start on 0911 then move to 0907?


----------



## George Wallace

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Mr. Wallace did you forget your morning coffee  ;D
> 
> Why would you have a member bounce from course serial to course serial?
> 
> i.e. you have him start on 0911 then move to 0907?



Trying to get the candidate through the summer with consecutive dates.  Try it.

Confused yet?


----------



## Nfld Sapper

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Trying to get the candidate through the summer with consecutive dates.  Try it.
> 
> Confused yet?





			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> [EDIT TO ADD]
> 
> 
> 
> OR  is it something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 5 0911   DP1   REG/PRES   15/Jun/09   26/Jun/09
> COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 2 0911   DP1   REG/PRES   29/Jun/09   10/Jul/09
> COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 1 0911 (Mod 5 Runs First)   DP1   REG/PRES   13/Jul/09   24/Jul/09
> COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 4 0911   DP1   REG/PRES   27/Jul/09   7/Aug/09
> COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 3 0911   DP1   REG/PRES   10/Aug/09   21/Aug/09



The above looks right to me.


----------



## George Wallace

Totally ILLOGICAL.

Logically, one starts at one point and progresses sequentially to a final objective.  One doesn't bounce all over Hell's Half Acre to get there.  One doesn't do a Crse first, and then a second Course that teaches the prerequisites one needs to know for the previous Crse.  One doesn't progress from WO (Mod 5), to MCpl (Mod 3), by becoming a Cpl (Mod 2), and then a a Pte (Mod 1), then a Sgt (Mod 4), and finally a MCpl (Mod 3).  

Then by definition, CAP is not one Crse, but five individual Courses, with five individual checks in boxes; not modules at all, which teach the prerequisites for the follow on modules in order to come to a sequential and logical completion.


----------



## DannyITR

I agree this is confusing. Does anyone by chance have dates for BOTP (I believe this is a prerequisite to CAP altogether).


----------



## George Wallace

DannyITR said:
			
		

> I agree this is confusing. Does anyone by chance have dates for BOTP (I believe this is a prerequisite to CAP altogether).



If you look at the BMOQ topic, you will find that there is a BMOQ being run in London beginning, I believe, 4 May and running to 14 Jun 09.


----------



## Bplante

There's a lot of guy from BMOQ arriving at gagetown. If there's bmoq finishing there's chance that another one will start soon.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Totally ILLOGICAL.
> 
> Logically, one starts at one point and progresses sequentially to a final objective.  One doesn't bounce all over Hell's Half Acre to get there.  One doesn't do a Crse first, and then a second Course that teaches the prerequisites one needs to know for the previous Crse.  One doesn't progress from WO (Mod 5), to MCpl (Mod 3), by becoming a Cpl (Mod 2), and then a a Pte (Mod 1), then a Sgt (Mod 4), and finally a MCpl (Mod 3).
> 
> Then by definition, CAP is not one Crse, but five individual Courses, with five individual checks in boxes; not modules at all, which teach the prerequisites for the follow on modules in order to come to a sequential and logical completion.



I see your point George.


----------



## George Wallace

A simple matter of rewriting the TP.  Rename the Mods to the order you want them taught in.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

George Wallace said:
			
		

> A simple matter of rewriting the TP.  Rename the Mods to the order you want them taught in.



So you volunteering yourself for that  

 ;D


----------



## George Wallace

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> So you volunteering yourself for that
> 
> ;D



Calian Technologies seem to have all those jobs tied up.  They only hire former officers, and the most senior of Snr NCOs.   ;D   

But sure, I would.........as a Contractor working for a six figure fee to change a few numbers around.


----------



## frostvelun

So, by these dates (and thank you very much for them, by the way - it really illuminates things) is it even possible to be qualified CAP by the end of summer? And if so, will the training even make sense?

It seems as though if you try to follow the sequence logically (1-5 or 5,1,2,3,4 as it is for some reason) you simply cannot slot in a module at certain points. Am I wrong here?

And if you try to follow the logical order by dates, the modules are all messed up order-wise as has been mentioned before.

Maybe I'm totally out of my lane here, but this makes no sense at all to me and it seems as though an entire summer's worth of Ocdts and 2LTs are going to be SOL when it comes to CAP. 

Thanks again.

EDIT: As someone based out of Quebec, am I obligated to take a course marked "SQFT" or is "DP1" still open to us as well? I am confused on this aspect.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Depends what your language profile is.

The 2 SQFT courses are listed as Franco.


----------



## George Wallace

Forget trying to make sense of it.  Think of it like............Getting a Degree at University........You get to take whatever Courses you require for that Degree, in whatever random order you like.........Don't think of CAP as one Crse, but several towards a Degree (CAP).

You will find a start date, which happens to be a Mod 5, and then that is the 09XX DP 1 "Crse Stream" you will take in those dates, in that order, towards completion of all CAP modules.

Like I said, if the person who drew up the TP had renamed the Modules into sequential order that they were run, they would have made it so much easier for people not at the School to understand and make sense of.  Perhaps that person left the lights on after they left the building.   ;D


You do not have to take a SQFT (Franco) Crse, if you are from Quebec, if you don't want to.   If you prefer an Anglo Crse, you can take one.  Just as anyone from another Prov who wishes to take the Franco Crse, can.


----------



## frostvelun

Seen.

I also just received my preliminary training dates for this summer. Not so good.

BOTP2 - 7 June to 19 June. Valcartier.
CAP - Directly after, starting on the second mod (whichever that is). Gagetown.

I was told there was absolutely no way to finish CAP this summer, and would have to take MOD 5 either part time (with 34bg) or full time during the school year.

I'm rather disappointed by all of this, but I guess I'll just take the kick in the pants. ha.  Does anything seem off to anyone else? Or, are any other 2LT's/Ocdts having the same problems? (in 34bg or otherwise).


----------



## double0three

I am an OCdt in the ROTP program currently waiting to get loaded on CAP course.  I did BOTP last summer (BMOQ Phase 2 or whatever they are calling it now).  It looks like a lot of the other OCdts in ROTP are in the same boat, and that "boat" is that nobody has received a message for CAP as of yet.  We are all sitting here twiddling our thumbs wondering what is going on.  I had initially heard about the course "starting" on 20 May, and how it was a strong possibility we would be loaded on it.  However new rumors have been surfacing that our loading may be "delayed".  So maybe we'll start getting put on the course starting in June.  From what it seems, I think there might be some logistical problems going on behind the scenes?   This is all just speculation, but feel free to comment/correct me.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Comment?

ok!

*watch and shoot, watch and shoot, watch and shoot*

...and take the time to ramp up your PT.


----------



## George Wallace

double0three said:
			
		

> I am an OCdt in the ROTP program currently waiting to get loaded on CAP course.  I did BOTP last summer (BMOQ Phase 2 or whatever they are calling it now).  It looks like a lot of the other OCdts in ROTP are in the same boat, and that "boat" is that nobody has received a message for CAP as of yet.  We are all sitting here twiddling our thumbs wondering what is going on.  I had initially heard about the course "starting" on 20 May, and how it was a strong possibility we would be loaded on it.  However new rumors have been surfacing that our loading may be "delayed".  So maybe we'll start getting put on the course starting in June.  From what it seems, I think there might be some logistical problems going on behind the scenes?   This is all just speculation, but feel free to comment/correct me.




Look back a few pages at the Crse Dates.


----------



## PanaEng

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Forget trying to make sense of it.  Think of it like............Getting a Degree at University........You get to take whatever Courses you require for that Degree, in whatever random order you like.........Don't think of CAP as one Crse, but several towards a Degree (CAP).
> 
> You will find a start date, which happens to be a Mod 5, and then that is the 09XX DP 1 "Crse Stream" you will take in those dates, in that order, towards completion of all CAP modules.
> 
> Like I said, if the person who drew up the TP had renamed the Modules into sequential order that they were run, they would have made it so much easier for people not at the School to understand and make sense of.  Perhaps that person left the lights on after they left the building.   ;D


As you said in the first para - it doesn't matter.
I think (speculation) they were written in the logical order initially, as they were going to be tought; however, standards may have thought that it may be better to run a different portion first (mod 5) or that there were not enough instructors to conduct the other mods first. I they get renamed and the opposite situation occurs then you have mods out of numerical sequence again - which is great because it allows for great flexibility when booking people on courses and finding instructors.

cheers,
Frank


----------



## ltmaverick25

CAP is no different then PLQ in that the mods do not have to run in numerical order.  The only exception is PLQ MOD 6 must be last, but all the others can be done whenever.  The CAP is very much the same way, though I dont think any one mod has to go last.  I think the reason the CAP is broken up into these mods was to accomodate reservists that could only get 2 weeks away per year.

For those of you going on CAP, all you really need to worry about is getting your course loading message.  Once you get there you wont be going anywhere until you get the whole thing done.

The other thing to remember is that CAP is for the most part the equivalent to the PLQ MOD 6.  BOMQ will cover small party tasks, basic field work and Battle Procedure during the BOTP (Part 2 of BOMQ).

CAP will have candidates lead section attacks, patrols and defensives at the section commander level.  All the building blocks they need for this will have been provided during BOMQ.

Aside from the field stuff they will learn how to run a range, again, doesnt really matter when you do this.  They will also, if I am not mistaken learn how to teach.  The field portions of the mods are the only parts that are sequence dependent, but again, they got their beginning sequence done by the time they get to CAP.

You guys will be fine!


----------



## Belisle

SQFT means Secteur du Québec de la Force Terrestre, does it also means that the CAP will be in Valcartier?

thanks for the answer


----------



## Ed Art

Im just wondering what the deal is for CAP this summer with those who are suppose to be attending.  Initially everyone (or so I believe) was slated to attend CAP, May 20th (ROTP-civi and rmc) at the infantry school but the majority of those people didnt receive messages.  Ive heard the school is overpacked, I know of a few infantry guys that are indeed going May 20th but most people have no idea what's going on.  Does anyone have any idea or info on what the rest of the ROTP candidates can expect this summer regarding CAP?
Ive heard there are three more start dates, June 1,8, and 15 but you know how things can be.


----------



## Chortle

Two of the guys on PAT with me were loaded on CAP today but we've been told the rest probably wouldn't be going until September.


----------



## jeffb

Not sure where you are right now but if you are in Gagetown, check with your OR. I'm on PAT awaiting CAP and have seen the list for all summer courses. (I'm not on it). There are a couple of ROTP guys on PAT with me that have got their course from the OR but are still awaiting their message.  We have been told there is another course starting in June with priority going to RMC, ROTP and others in the system with DEO and CEOTP that started BMOQ anytime this year (I started Jan.) starting CAP in September. 

That being said, the DEO guys who were loaded on the last course were loaded on day one of the course due to spots opening up last minute so who knows what's going to happen around here.


----------



## SeanNewman

FWIW, the reason the Mods are the way they are is because they were originally in order numerically, but as courses go on they improve and things get shifted around.

For example, the CF Instruct Personnel POs used to be last (Mod5) on CAP/BMOQ-L, but then it came up that it would be better for the candidates to have that training first so they could use those skills leading PT, etc for the rest of the course.

The current order is 5, 2, 1, 3, and 4.  Sounds confusing but it was really only two changes: 5 was moved to being taught first, and 2 moved ahead of 1.

It would be more of a burden to change what each Mod means what just to keep the numbers in order, so they remain named the same thing and the nubmers are out of order.

At the end of the day for most candidates the Mod system doesn't make any difference because they come here for 10 weeks and they get the training the Infantry School gives them in the most logical order it can be given.

It only ever becomes an issue if someone was injured off or failed and the Mods are shifted before they return.


----------



## ballz

Could you tell us the name of the PO of each Mod? That would be dandy as that basically is the all the  curriculum.

Also, if you complete a mod, you don't have to re-do that mod if you get recoursed do you? I know that seems like a stupid question but in BMOQ it wasn't that way.

Also, the physical POs are something I'd like to know. I've heard you ruck ruck and ruck some more. To what standard?


----------



## vonGarvin

ballz said:
			
		

> Could you tell us the name of the PO of each Mod? That would be dandy as that basically is the all the  curriculum.
> 
> Also, if you complete a mod, you don't have to re-do that mod if you get recoursed do you? I know that seems like a stupid question but in BMOQ it wasn't that way.
> 
> Also, the physical POs are something I'd like to know. I've heard you ruck ruck and ruck some more. To what standard?


Without giving away PO numbers, here is what the candidate of BMOQ-L must do:
Conduct Offensive Operations
Conduct Defensive Operations
Conduct a Recce Patrol
Conduct Live Fire Ranges
Fire the C7
Navigate with a Map and Compass in a tactical environment
Navigate with a GPS in a tactical environment
Supervise Army Physical Fitness Training
Employ Field craft
Fire the LMG
Throw Grenades
Recognize AFV and Aircraft
Mine Awareness
Communicate with current radio equipment
Fire the Pistol
Call for indirect Fire
Method of Instruction
Implementing programs
Instructing 

If you successfully complete a mod, which is more than just passing the tests, then you don't have to re-do it PROVIDED you complete BMOQ-L within a given timeline.  I think it's five years.  
For physical fitness, the entrance requirement is the CF ExPres test.  By the end of the course, you must complete the BFT.  There is a lot of physical activity, and if you are not fit, it will distract you enough to make an already challenging course that much more difficult.


----------



## SeanNewman

In my opinion you are setting yourself up for failure with questions about "what if I get re-coursed?".

Yes it happens, but unless you break an ankle or have a big attitude you should pass and have the mind set that you are here to learn how to lead.

The CF EXPRES's purpose is to let us know who is so out of shape that they might die of a heart attack on the course; that's it.

It is a member's responsbitily to be in realtively decent shape when they show up for CAP/BMOQ-L, as it demonstrates that they can prepare for a task.

Even if you can pull off a "P" in the gym on Day 1, the field portion of the course and the marches are infinitely harder.  I don't care if a person can run a 7 or 8 on the beep test of do 19 or 49 push ups...gym strength does not really match military fitness.

If you can still take orders and come up with a plan of how to lead your subordinates (and then motivate them to fight) after 100 hours with no sleep, soaking wet, freezing, and then march several kms with a ruck sack, you will pass CAP.


----------



## ballz

Petamocto said:
			
		

> In my opinion you are setting yourself up for failure with questions about "what if I get re-coursed?".
> 
> Yes it happens, but unless you break an ankle or have a big attitude you should pass and have the mind set that you are here to learn how to lead.



A guy I was on BMOQ with this summer just got re-coursed from CAP. He said he makes 25% of their original group being recoursed due to injury, and they are only 5 weeks in. Given that, it's a valid question. My mindset is fine, but to think "it can't happen to me" is naive. An injury rate that high makes it seem like real injuries, not boo-boo's.



			
				Petamocto said:
			
		

> The CF EXPRES's purpose is to let us know who is so out of shape that they might die of a heart attack on the course; that's it.
> 
> It is a member's responsbitily to be in realtively decent shape when they show up for CAP/BMOQ-L, as it demonstrates that they can prepare for a task.



That's why I asked what physical standards we would be expected to achieve in CAP. I thought they would be higher than the Express test and the BFT, since we had to achieve that just to pass basic. I am preparing. It's beneficial to preparation to have goals set that you are trying to meet/exceed by the time the course rolls around.

When I'n not asking these kind of questions 6 months before the course starts (when it's too late to do something about any shortcomings), THEN I'm not preparing.

Technoviking, that's a great list. Thanks. LMG means light-machine gun right? As in the C9? I'm just a little disappointed I won't get to try the C6 this summer. Oh well... Grenades, pistols, C9 in one summer.... can't complain.


----------



## SeanNewman

My response is that you should be able to easily surpass all of the CF EXPRES minimum standards, and easily do the BFT with more weight than the minimum.

If you can't do a 9-10 on the run, 30+ push ups, 30+ sit ups, and the BFT in ~2hrs with 60 pounds, I would advise to keep working to those goals.

The biggest man-eater as far as medical RTUs go is people just not being prepared to do this much marching around in boots with weight.  They get all sorts of blisters, then they start favouring a leg, then they get injured because of that, etc.

Yes some people do get bad luck injuries, and in those cases the Staff goes to bat for them at the Medical PRB and those candidates get full credit for all of the Mods they have completed.

Some strongly feel like the Mod system should be left in the Reserves because doing something for 10 weeks in a row is its own PO check, but that's for another thread.


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## ballz

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Some strongly feel like the Mod system should be left in the Reserves because doing something for 10 weeks in a row is its own PO check, but that's for another thread.



Well... those people have a good point... I was happy to hear about the mod system, but I was surprised. I'll take it as a personal defeat if I need to cut the course in half.

Those numbers still don't seem high. I am not trying to be all gung-ho but I was expecting "at least 11 or 12 for the beep test, 40-50 pushups, 50 situps, and be able to ruck 20km with standard weight." I guess I'll just have to aim for that stuff for the sake of.... better preperation.

Sounds like the main-killer for most people is just that they've never done real hard physical labour before for 12-14 hours a day. Honestly I think the best prep I had for the field wasn't physical fitness but more so having worked long hours in the trades and sheet metal, roofing, carpentry, etc.

Well my mind is at ease now at least... I just wish I didn't have 6 more months of school between me and this course. Starting to feel like when I was waiting for Basic to come around all over again.


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## SeanNewman

As I wrote above, the CF EXPRES is not meant to identify who can do 19 or 50 push ups; it is to see who will likely die if they are pushed too hard.  That is why they have their vitals taken before the test, etc.

That's not to say that you still shouldn't try 100%, because your staff will know if you quit before you're tired.

Sports (gym) fitness and working long hours of civilian labour are not really equivalent to the kinds of stresses you will face, though.  I agree that some jobs are exposed to the elements and some jobs are stressful, but for the most part they all allow you to take a break when your body tells you that you've had enough.

What is great about the Army (and phase trg) is that you will be put in situations where there are no breaks, and you will learn that your body can go way past the point of thinking it should shut down, as long as your brain is motivated enough to keep it moving.

A person won't fail CAP because staff can do more push ups than they can; a person will fail CAP because they are on day 4 of an exercise and still ruck marching somewhere and decide that it's time to give up.

It is easy to be on a computer saying "I will never quit", but you are dry, warm, well-slept, not over-worked muscularly, and not under stress.  

A follower has to keep themself motivated even when everything inside them is saying "stop".

As a leader, you will be faced with those same difficulties to keep yourself motivated, but you have to then look at a group of your peers - who are also suffering - and inspire them to carry out your mission.

It sounds hard, and it is.  If it were easy anyone could be a leader in Army.  But keeping the road to graduation difficult, it will mean something to you when you come out on the other side and I assure you that on grad parade when you hear those pipes and they give you the cap badge you've earned, you'll never be so proud of yourself.


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## ballz

Petamocto said:
			
		

> The biggest man-eater as far as medical RTUs go is people just not being prepared to do this much marching around in boots with weight.  They get all sorts of blisters, then they start favouring a leg, then they get injured because of that, etc.



I'm surprised I didn't ask this when you first said it, because I've been wondering for some time and asking people but never getting a very concrete answer.

What is the standard for gucci kit? Particularly in the field... Because I want to buy some good combat boots (M9s) and a jump ruck set-up, but I have no idea if I'm allowed to use it on CAP. Is there one standard or is it a "depends on your staff" answer?


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## SeanNewman

The official answer is still "Only what is issued".

However, it's not like the old days where everyone was issued Mark 3 boots.  Now, with the Mk4 style and people being issued Magnum-style boots, it's not as big of a point as it used to be since not all are the same.  As long as you keep it low-key and don't have anything like the running boot Oakley or Converse you should be okay.

For the ruck, if you're just talking the frame then you'll probably be okay since it _was_ CF issue.  However, you'll still have to go with the valise-on-bottom layout.  Not that you'd want it on the top, I was in Para Coy for a couple years and I couldn't stand it on top...why people want to spend 5 minutes to get inside their ruck is beyond me.


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## navypuke

After 10 years in the navy I am switching over to Intelligence Officer, and even though my prefered enviroment is navy, I was told I will have to complete a Common Army Phase during one of the summers between my schooling years. Can anyone tell me what this course is like. Is it like a watered down battle school? Has anyone done it recently. Anything useful would be helpful.

I looked on the recruiting website and it just looks like a basic understanding of small unit tactics and such at the section level. How much leadership is involved in this course?


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## George Wallace

You just failed PO 004.  Use of Open Source Intelligence.


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## Michael OLeary

Start here:

CAP Syllabus - 2008?
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/71824.0


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## armyvern

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Now, with the Mk4 style and ...



No such beast is stocked or issued.

If you are speaking of the Boot, Interim, GP - then I'll point out that it is exactly that: The Boot, *Interim*, GP.

It is an interim measure only, and is most certainly not "Boot, Cbt MkIV", and it should make it's disappearance within the next couple of years ...


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## ltmaverick25

navypuke said:
			
		

> After 10 years in the navy I am switching over to Intelligence Officer, and even though my prefered enviroment is navy, I was told I will have to complete a Common Army Phase during one of the summers between my schooling years. Can anyone tell me what this course is like. Is it like a watered down battle school? Has anyone done it recently. Anything useful would be helpful.
> 
> I looked on the recruiting website and it just looks like a basic understanding of small unit tactics and such at the section level. How much leadership is involved in this course?



Naval Intelligence Officers are no longer required to do CAP.  This came straight from the CMS N2 himself.  Also confirmed by a friend of mine, also a Naval Intelligence Officer.  He just finished BMOQ and he is going straight to NETPO, then going to the wait list for BIOC.

What coast are you on?


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## jeffb

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> Naval Intelligence Officers are no longer required to do CAP.  This came straight from the CMS N2 himself.  Also confirmed by a friend of mine, also a Naval Intelligence Officer.



I was just on CAP and there was a Naval Int O on there. I left course early but he would have been there until just last week. If this is accurate, he's probably not going to be impressed!


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## ltmaverick25

jeffb said:
			
		

> I was just on CAP and there was a Naval Int O on there. I left course early but he would have been there until just last week. If this is accurate, he's probably not going to be impressed!



He may have requested CAP even if its not a requirement.  Especially given the huge wait before being loaded on a BIOC, why not get some extra training in?  On the other hand, it wouldnt surprise me if this message has not been fully disseminated.  

At any rate, he will be better off for the training anyway.  We are supposed to be able to operate in all three elements after all.


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## SeanNewman

That rule must be within the last few months, because I just graduated a Naval Int O on 04 December.

He was course loaded in September, so if the rule came out after that I am sure he resents the torture time in the field.


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## ltmaverick25

I think its more likely that the info either hasnt been disseminated properly, or it hasnt gotten buy in from the Int branch yet, as this was the CMS N2 that told us how it would be.  

At any rate, CAP at this state in the game for him wont be that bad, hes in the right shape and frame of mind to get it done.  Better now then latter.  It can only help him in the long run.


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## AD

Some new info for some,

summer CAP date 25 MAY - 30 JUL


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## ballz

They're only running one?


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## vonGarvin

Nope, several will run.  I don't have details, but three (?) serials are running in January.


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## Nfld Sapper

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Nope, several will run.  I don't have details, but three (?) serials are running in January.



From my copy of AITA NATIONAL CALENDAR

COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 1 1001 (Mod 5 Runs First)	DP1	REG/PRES	2	A	1/Mar/10	12/Mar/10
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 2 1001	DP1	REG/PRES	2	A	15/Feb/10	26/Feb/10
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 3 1001	DP1	REG/PRES	2	A	15/Mar/10	26/Mar/10
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 4 1001	DP1	REG/PRES	2	A	5/Apr/10	16/Apr/10
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 5 1001	DP1	REG/PRES	2	A	25/Jan/10	12/Feb/10

COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 1 1002 (Mod 5 Runs First)	DP1	REG/PRES	2	A	1/Mar/10	12/Mar/10
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 2 1002	DP1	REG/PRES	2	A	15/Feb/10	26/Feb/10
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 3 1002	DP1	REG/PRES	2	A	15/Mar/10	26/Mar/10
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 4 1002	DP1	REG/PRES	2	A	5/Apr/10	16/Apr/10
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 5 1002	DP1	REG/PRES	2	A	25/Jan/10	12/Feb/10

COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 1 1003 (Mod 5 Runs First)	DP1	REG/PRES	2	F	1/Mar/10	12/Mar/10
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 2 1003	DP1	REG/PRES	2	F	15/Feb/10	26/Feb/10
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 3 1003	DP1	REG/PRES	2	F	15/Mar/10	26/Mar/10
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 4 1003	DP1	REG/PRES	2	F	5/Apr/10	16/Apr/10
COMMON ARMY PHASE - MODULE 5 1003	DP1	REG/PRES	2	F	25/Jan/10	12/Feb/10


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## vonGarvin

Mods run 5, 2, 1, 3 then 4.  The mods will change from numbers to descriptive, hopefully soon.  Also, of course, the proper title for the course is no longer COMMON ARMY PHASE but BASIC MILITARY OFFICER QUALIFICATION - LAND (BMOQ-L).  Yes, it sounds out rhyming with "debacle".  ;D


Does the calendar also show the 1 week-long Basic Winter Warfare?  It should come before mod 5.  I think.


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## Nfld Sapper

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Mods run 5, 2, 1, 3 then 4.  The mods will change from numbers to descriptive, hopefully soon.  Also, of course, the proper title for the course is no longer COMMON ARMY PHASE but BASIC MILITARY OFFICER QUALIFICATION - LAND (BMOQ-L).  Yes, it sounds out rhyming with "debacle".  ;D



Well leave it up to the school of "Close with and Destroy" to change the name and order in which it is taught

 ;D

 :christmas happy:


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## vonGarvin

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Well leave it up to the school of "*Close with and Destroy*" to change the name and order in which it is taught
> 
> ;D
> 
> :christmas happy:


We prefer to be called "The School of Cool" ;D


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## flyers123

How much money can an OCDT expect to make during CAP in the reserves?


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## MJP

flyers123 said:
			
		

> How much money can an OCDT expect to make during CAP in the reserves?



Your daily rate of pay x the number days on course - roughly 30% for taxes/CPP/EI etc.


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## brihard

flyers123 said:
			
		

> How much money can an OCDT expect to make during CAP in the reserves?



You're looking at roughly two months of training for BMOQ-L, multiplied by your daily rate. So for an OCdt with a year in, about $101 x 60 days, or about six grand gross. Add to that the per diem incidentals or casual land duty allowance rate as applicable- I'll again ballpark these as averaged out to maybe $20, so another $1200 ish for that. From that you're losing taxes, CPP, EI, reserve force pension. 

All said and done, the pay is quite generous for people who are not yet trained to the point of being useful in any meaningful way. Certainly it's pretty good compared to what most people (short of experienced professionals) will make over the course of a couple of months.


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## Maxadia

I assume you are trying to weigh the money you will be paid against time off from your regular employment? It would be a good idea to take your current pay and break it down into a $$$/day amount in order to compare.


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## veelox321

Hi, i have questions regarding common army phase course for the reserve. I've been NCM before and did the soldier qualification, will i have something credited in for the course? Is the course still in 5 module of 2 weeks? if you drop out in the middle will you have to do it all again or you can just do the mod you've not done? and are the mod can be done in school year part time on the weekend? sorry for all these questions, thanks.


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## Nfld Sapper

CAP or BMOQL is more akin to PLQ than SQ, so I don't think you will get any credit...


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## Flavus101

In the army's infinite wisdom the course has been renamed to BMOQ(A) (Basic Military Officer Qualification Army). Unless you have done PLQ you will not be credited anything, as Sapper said it is more focused on PLQ stuff than SQ/DP1 stuff.

I was told that they are phasing out the modules system and going for something else next year. No idea if that will actually be the case.

I do not believe the course is offered on weekends.


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## InfO2013

Do you know what's changed for course content, or is it just the name? Looks like its over 55 days now, as opposed to the 50 it was before?


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## ballz

InfO2013 said:
			
		

> Do you know what's changed for course content, or is it just the name? Looks like its over 55 days now, as opposed to the 50 it was before?



If you are going on a winter serial, its probably 55 days because there will be a BWW run at the start. It is possible they changed the TP though.


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## RocketRichard

ballz said:
			
		

> If you are going on a winter serial, its probably 55 days because there will be a BWW run at the start. It is possible they changed the TP though.


There is rumint of a change. Standing by...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jordan.S

Hey Guys, 

First off I know this may have been asked but not recently. 

My first question is about the reserve infantry officer training in gaugetown. Do the course takers get jacked up as much as in the NCM training courses? Any recent grads of the CAP course that can comment?


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## Flavus101

Some more than others.

It's really not a hard course to pass. Focus on the immediate task at hand, help your buddies and try to find a bit of time each night to unwind.


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