# assault rifles



## aries85 (11 Feb 2004)

I was just wondering how our c7 compares to other guns such as britains SA 80, americans m16‘s, and australias steyr aug, and other militarys assualt rifles. do alot of these guns look "COOL" but still pretty comarable?


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## jonsey (11 Feb 2004)

Well, considering I have no reall experience with any of them, I can‘t really say. But the C7 and M16 are practically the same. Some minor differences (the C7 has a full-auto position, the M16 has a 2 or 3 round burst mode. The C7 uses an optical 3.2x sight versus the M16‘s standard sights.)

As for the rest, I‘ll let those who actually know what they‘re talking about to fill you in.      

Edit:: The C7 has been said to be an M16, but better. I believe someone posted that the C7 was being used by the SAS?


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## chrisf (11 Feb 2004)

Very well.


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## GGHG_Cadet (11 Feb 2004)

If you search the site you should be able to find loads of topics including an article that I posted some time ago about the SAS using the C7.


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## koalorka (11 Feb 2004)

Looking for the best? The wz.96 Beryl will suit you‘r needs.


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## Enzo (13 Feb 2004)

Aries - First, there are many topics such as this which have been covered on this site,  do a search. Second, do you have a point aside from how "cool" these rifles appear?

They are all 5.56x45mm NATO with similar ballistics. They‘ll put a hole in a person accurately @ 300m, as a section @ 600m.

Cool enough?


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## aries85 (13 Feb 2004)

> Originally posted by Enzo:
> [qb] Aries - First, there are many topics such as this which have been covered on this site,  do a search. Second, do you have a point aside from how "cool" these rifles appear?
> 
> They are all 5.56x45mm NATO with similar ballistics. They‘ll put a hole in a person accurately @ 300m, as a section @ 600m.
> ...


thats exactly my point i was just wondering if alot of the assualt rifles out there just looked alot cooler and futuristic and were actually just as comparable to one another thanx for answering my question


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## Enzo (13 Feb 2004)

No worries


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## Infanteer (13 Feb 2004)

I think that if this thread is not going to offer any serious discussion on military rifles, I‘m going to put it out of its misery.


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## Sh0rtbUs (13 Feb 2004)

> Originally posted by aries85:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> ...


I know this is going to show my ignorance, but what does 600m at a section mean? As well, I‘ve seen te C7 called 5.56 Cal. and 5.56 mm. WHich is correct, and whats the difference if any?


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## stukirkpatrick (13 Feb 2004)

> I know this is going to show my ignorance, but what does 600m at a section mean? As well, I‘ve seen te C7 called 5.56 Cal. and 5.56 mm. WHich is correct, and whats the difference if any?


You will learn all in good time, young grasshopper...


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## Enzo (13 Feb 2004)

ShortBus, you should go, nay, run down to your local library and get your hands on the bible, by this I mean "Jane‘s Infantry Weapons & Small Arms." You can pick the year. Then I suggest you absorb that book, it will be an excellent starting point and open your eyes to many wonderful things. Jane‘s and other like minded publications kids will provide you with many accurate details that the info boxes from Rainbow 6 and SOCOM just aren‘t able to provide.

Having said that, I‘ll answer your question. First, I was being sarcastic when I responded to Aries because I‘m getting tired of these asinine queries. You need to understand, killing is a serious thing, you cannot take that back. There is no "retry" with this. Professionalism is a mindset, something to be taken seriously and actions will speak the level of yours. Although the majority of the worlds "soldiers" are no more than children and teens these days, this is a grown ups game. Especially in the CF for if you ever go overseas, you will most likely find yourself in a situation where you‘ll have to exercise restraint on a daily basis and then deal with the crap that you saw. You may notice that "justice" or "rights" are notions which are not always respected. The individuals doing whatever nasty thing to each other (or you) may be using sticks, machetes, mines, mortars, or Enfields and Klashnikovs from generations past. I have no doubt that a young man who has grown up with a .303 Enfield (for those of you who do not know what this rifle is, look it up) wearing robes and running through the hills on sandals will be able to engage you with your LBV, kevlar, pack and C7 @ 600m and make you wish you had something with a bit more punch. Take your time on the range seriously, those kids do almost daily. (For fun, look up the Canadian Rangers and see the firearm of choice for the Inuit supported by elements of the CF Infantry, these are the reservists in the Canadian North) The Enfield is by our standards, obsolete, using an obsolete cartridge and it looks like something your Grandpa has in his collection, but in the right hands it‘s effective.

With that said, this information is available almost ANYWHERE.

The NATO standard cartridge is the 5.56mm x 45mm SS 109. (Those are the metric dimensions of the cartridge, the first number is the diameter of the bullet itself and the second is the length) The SS 109 is a steel-core 62 grain bullet and has been the traditional round for some time, although there are many other bullets in use such as the US M193, etc... No two bullets have the same performance, by this I mean, you can vary many factors such as the weight/shape of the bullet and the amount/type of propellant you use resulting in varying ballistics. Then you have conditional factors: temperature, wind, humidity, altitude, etc...

This bullet is also known as the .223 Remington. This is the imperial measure for the bullet, by this I mean the diameter of the bullet is .223 Calibre. Click on the link below, you  NEED to read this!!

 http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/223.html 

The average individual effective range of the C-7 (M-16) is 300m, the effective range is 600m when firing as a SECTION, this means your section members firing together at a target.

Now, the C-7(M-16) in the right hands with the right ammo, etc... can be accurate at ranges exceeding 600m by individual.

 http://userpages.aug.com/captbarb/rifle.html 

You must also read this.

This should answer your questions and give you a place from whereupon you can have an informed basis of your growing knowledge. Be a professional at all times, the world has enough psychobabies.

Cheers.


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## Sh0rtbUs (13 Feb 2004)

Thanx Enzo, that was great help!

(I dont play SOCOM or Rainbow 6    )


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## portcullisguy (15 Feb 2004)

Shortbus, as a quicker general rule:

"Calibre" refers to imperial measurement, such as .223 or .303 or .45 (the decimal inches).

"mm" is metric measurement, such as 5.56mm, 7.62mm, 9mm, etc.

The trend with military arms and ammunition is to use metric, as it is the international standard.  In sport shooting, you will find arms and ammo in both forms, usually based on long traditions.

However, only use ammunition specific to each firearm, even with modern arms.  For example, although a .357 Magnum revolver can fire a .38 Special cartridge, a .38 Special pistol cannot usually fire a .357 Magnum cartrdige.  Always ask an expert.


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## Sh0rtbUs (15 Feb 2004)

Im assuming muzzle velocity is in FPS..


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## Enzo (15 Feb 2004)

Sure, if you‘re using a imperial device to measure the speed. In Europe, you could find devices which measure is mps, etc... It all depends upon the user.

As a general rule of thumb, do not assume anything. Apply this rule liberally.


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## Infanteer (15 Feb 2004)

Thanks for salvaging this thread Enzo


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## Danny (16 Feb 2004)

What does it matter how "cool" is it. As long as it pucks a hole into the enemy so he cant put a hole in you, thats all that matters.


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## sguido (2 Jul 2004)

On an 'evaluation' exercise, I had the opportunity to fire a few interesting items.  My personal opinion is that the C7 'feels' more solid than its US counterpart.  No, I can't explain it further...just that it seems better made.  (Disclaimer: some of the weapons were provided to us straight from the manufacturer, perhaps even 'demo' models.  Would they provide superior products than what they would deliver as standard issue just to get a sale?  I ain't touching that one with a ten foot pole...)

A bud who did a UK exchange said the L85 is great on the range...period.  He confirmed the story about one of the early issue ones melting when it came in contact with insect repellant.  He also said that somebody broke their SUSAT sight, and it caused a minor lobster grub f*** in order to meet the safety procedures.  Hmm...seems like more trouble that it's worth, eh?

Here's an interesting site for you to check out:

http://www.world.guns.ru/


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## MJP (2 Jul 2004)

wow more old threads being revived......great.....


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## Da_man (2 Jul 2004)

Enzo said:
			
		

> ShortBus, you should go, nay, run down to your local library and get your hands on the bible, by this I mean "Jane's Infantry Weapons & Small Arms." You can pick the year. Then I suggest you absorb that book, it will be an excellent starting point and open your eyes to many wonderful things. Jane's and other like minded publications kids will provide you with many accurate details that the info boxes from Rainbow 6 and SOCOM just aren't able to provide.




well im not going to buy it.  Its $1000     

http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/0710626258/qid=1088821742/sr=1-8/ref=sr_1_0_8/701-8162965-7218731


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## themaskeduser (3 Jul 2004)

possibly a volume of several books?

on the c7, i rememberd during my basic, the instructor pretty much told us that the c7 was pretty much a m16 with better performance to meet the needs of the CF eg; weather, etc....
you can't really go wrong with the standard service rifle of any country
after all every rifle is manufactured to meet the needs of the demographics


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## Da_man (3 Jul 2004)

nope. its 1 book.  1000 pages


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## Infanteer (3 Jul 2004)

Can't be the same Janes Manuels then.   I bought one for 40 bucks at Chapters (if that).


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## Carpenter (10 Jul 2004)

What Enzo said is exactly right.  In the right hands, a Lee-Enfield is an amazing weapon.  I have a friend who was in 2RCR and used to be on their match shooting team.  He used no scope and was able to hit targets consistently at distances of 900 to 1000 yds.  I guess it all depends on how good your eyes are.  Anyway, all it takes is one shot and you are kaput.  Any rifle is an instrument of death whichever way you cut it.


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## CF_Lifer (12 Jul 2004)

I wrote a big rant about the C7A2....but the navigator ****ed up,  and lost all but what I had "Cut" to move around in the post. Damn....am I pissed off. Oh well, here's the personal bit... 


Now, I may not be in the CF...yet, but I was one of the first people to fire the C7A2, last year right before the DCRA's NSCC, being as how CFSC was cancelled. (My dad was running the Pistol Matches, practical and deliberate, and Capt. Keith Cunningham running the Service Rifle/Precision Rifle side).  Being tested on the 50yrd (yes, they still haven't gone to metric up there) Pistol Ranges of Connaught Ranges, by a Weap Tech "MWO Gary Sutton" with the EMEs. They were trialing three rifles, with OD, White, and Tan Furniture. But, after 1500 rounds went through each of them in one day....they were jamming up (Although I'd like to see any other rifle do anywhere near that). Now, even though I had a cast on my left arm, (the resting arm) I was still able to hit the 1-inch bullet-hole patch they had set up next to a mini-Fig 11. 
Instead of having the Elcan on the rifles, they were switching a thermal imaging sight from rifle to rifle. The sight was then hooked up to a monitor in the back of the CF JEEP Cherokee they were using to tote the stuff around in. Not to brag, but the Sgt, MWO, and civvies watching me were muttering "How is he hitting it", the Black bullet patch showing up as a white square with the White/Hot setting on the thermal sight. Through and Through, It was a nice, short rifle to handle, and tucked well into the shoulder. This being befored they developed the Butt-pad for the Telescoping stock, it gave a bit of a sharper kick on the shoulder, but I'm sure it wouldn't affect you nearly as much with a butt pad, flak jacket, and Tac-Vest on.  :threat:


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## MJP (12 Jul 2004)

I'm sure there was a point but I sure did't get it?  Mind elaborating what you are talking about?  I noticed you mentioned rant about the C7A2 at the top?  Any problems with the weapon?


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## CF_Lifer (12 Jul 2004)

Sorry about missing the whole point entirely, I just didn't want to waste any more of my time, by not posting the bit I saved. 
No, I didn't really find any problems with the weapon, it fired just fine on Automatic......but then again the actions haven't been changed, they're still the same C7A1 Action, with the little rubber stopper bit to tighten up the action, and the Ambidexterous parts to make it easier for lefties. The only thing I did notice, was the receiver seemed alot tighter, nothing felt loose when the rifle was operating, not even on automatic. I'm sure it adds to accuracy.....a little bit. I'll have to get one for my AR-15. The rifle was a bit easier to fire than a full Length Armalite, with the buttstock being collapsed. I'll follow up with what I can remember from the lost post. 

Thanks for the quick reply, I was waiting around for one. 

Andrew


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## KevinB (12 Jul 2004)

Keep in mind the C7A2 is an IRAN project (Inspect: Repair as necessary)
 Funds were exceedingly limited and while the powers that be wanted something else, no funds could be found for it...

(PS Kids write your local MP


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## CF_Lifer (12 Jul 2004)

OK. Back to what I initially TRIED to post. 
As we all know, the C7 was developed in the early 80's as a replacement for the FN FAL (C1). Luckily, the under-funded, liberal-ruined CF did the right thing, and followed the trend of 5.56 rifles being developed (We were at least 20 years behind the US's transition to a lighter round)  instead of developing another 7.62 weapon. Again, luckily, we chose an Armalite-type rifle. (In My opinion, one of the most versatile weapon systems that has been developed so far) 
Completely skipping the C7A1, I move onto the C7A2. It is, as far as anyone is concerned, the newest combat weapon out there....at least for the next year or so. (Even if it is just an upgrade). Even if it isn't exactly what the NCMs wanted, it is a step upwards. Retaining the full-length barrels may work out to be an advantage, instead of adopting an across the board Carbine barrel, which would, at longer ranges, limit the effectiveness of the rifle. Even though most of the conflicts we are seeing now are turning into FIBUA battles, there may be a need, in the future, for a full length barrel. 
Now to the other end of the weapon, the Collapsible Buttstock. I dont know why other designers didn't adopt these babies when they first came out. The only disadvantage to them: You cant carry a cleaning kit inside the trap. So what? Like you cant stuff one into your pocket? For the verstility that a telescoping stock provides, I think we can find another place for the cleaning kit. It gives you the ability to turn your full length rifle into a carbine length. This makes Armoured Personnel, Vehicle operators, and whoever else doesn't need to be cumbersomed by a long rifle's job alot easier. It also aids, once again, in anyone who has to do any inside-building work, running through crowds, or getting into small spaces i.e 'Ghan caves. The Butt Pad also softens the sharp-er kick associated with collapsibles without causing the butt to slip, affecting accuracy. 
Also, changing the colour of the furniture on the weapon greatly increases cam and concealment. The only more noticeable thing than a helmet silouhette, has to be a black rifle on a cam background. Even if the entire rifle isn't cammed, it definitely breaks up the outline. With the OD being the standard, and the White and Tan being available Options. 
Even the Ambidexterous controls are a stark improvement, saving lefties from having to fumble with standard right-handed controls. 
Now, in my opinion, the least important addition must be the rails. I'm not against them whatsoever, but they dont make quite the impact on the rifle as everything above. We were still attaching flashlights, and other doodads before these rails came around. This just makes everything standard, with the always-there ability to attach whatever might be needed. And again, with combat moving more and more towards FIBUA, standard rails for a flashlight could come in very handy. 
LAst, and definitely least, the CADPAT sling, just one more thing to reduce Black items on a soldier. In case anyone hasn't noticed, Black doesn't show up naturally in the wild, unless its on an animal's nose. One thing that can be fixed with the Tac Vest - Black Buckles. OD would of been much better. 
And thats all I have to say about that


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## KevinB (13 Jul 2004)

CF_Lifer,

You bring up some good point points - however I will disagree with you on a number of them.
Carbine barrels











as you can see the 16 (ish) barrel of the C8A2 would be a more effective ternimal performer with the 77gr Mk262 round that the 20" C7 barrel with C77 (M855/SS109) type ball.
We would then gain both a more compact and effective arm.

 The new charging handle is a fricking disaster.  

None of the new weapons have yet been issued with the ambi fireselector and the original Norgon Ambi catch has been replaced with Diemaco's more 'tooth' area version that is causing a number of magazines dropped by contact withthe soliders tacvest.

 Colours - have the troops paint it in the areas we are fighting.  So far we have no seen TAN as an availabel option and DLR told us there were no plans...

CADPAT SLING - we only have 5 / platoon curently - but too long for the C8A2's and useless on the C7A2/M203A1 combo's...
  A single poitn sling like the Giles sling by Wilderness Products coudl have been procured to take adavtage of the sling plate loop on the carbine stock plate - ina  neutral colour like coyote brown.


Did I mention the C79  : no BIS...

Anyway enough of my rantings.


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## CF_Lifer (13 Jul 2004)

Thats true, a heavier grain bullet would offer better Muzzel Velocity, thus, ending up with better ballistics, BUT, the SS109 is the NATO round. And nobody is going to turn away from the SS109. It is a "Politically Correct" round. As it is a "humane" round, that makes nice, clean holes. Doesn't mushroom out, and doesn't tumble before 600m. So, adopting a 16" (ish) barrel would make sense if we were to adopt a new round....but that's never going to happen. Plus, the Liberal government isn't willing to put more money towards new barrels. The Ambi-Dex latches are supposed to be in the new rifles, are you sure they dont have them in the C7A2s that are being given to the guys in 'Ghan? I wouldn't know...I'm not over there. Personally, I dont mind the tacti-latch, althought I admit, it would probably get caught on alot of things ina combat situation. I ordered one for my AR-15, helps for when you're quickly laying down on the mound, less to worry about when you're grabbing for the charging handle....but that isn't combat, thats near-perfect conditions on a range. 
Piss poor that they haven't delivered more slings eh?
They do need to re-design the sling though. What do they call the mount they have for it? A Lobster claw? Someone correct me if I'm wrong,


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## KevinB (13 Jul 2004)

Uhm 

C77 fragments in human tissue at velocities ABOVE 2500fps 
 Any BS claim about a humane round is simple rubish...

 Sorry if I was not more clear we have the Diemaco license built Ambi-Catch (originally by Norgon LLC) what we don't have is any of the ambidex fire control selectors.

We wasted $20 million on the boot sole fiasco and they say we dont have $ for barrels - thats horseshit...


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## MJP (13 Jul 2004)

More like the slings they have delivered are piss poor.    There are tons of slings that are already proven that they could have chosen, and we don't really need it in cadpat....but I digress.

As for if they have the Ambi-dex fire selector latches in Afghanistan, I don't know but I do you know next month when I deploy along with Kevin.....our C7A2s(that we take) currently don't have them.


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## CF_Lifer (13 Jul 2004)

The C77 round is a FMJ round, with a steel core. Which, is supposed to make a clean hole through tissue. Whether or not it fragments after hitting bone, I don't know. But I do know that on tissue...it would most certainly go right through. Any bullet that does otherwise is outlawed by International Convention (Geneva). Check out what I've written on the "AK-74 vs C7" line, it describes the Red Army's 5.45mm Round...that is an inhumane round. And thats exactly what its built for. 
As for the Ambi-Catch, it is installed on Stock Diemaco C7A2s, and it listed on the site. If they are removed for some reason....that leaves me dumbfounded. What MIGHT of happened, is the CF might of just used their old receivers,.....which is probably what happened, because..its the CF. And might not have any of the Ambidextrous shindighers that Diemaco puts on.

The C77, which is a the Canadian designation for the SS109 round 


"THIS CARTRIDGE COMPLIES WITH STANAG 4172" From the IMI 5.56mm SS109 Website.


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## KevinB (13 Jul 2004)

CF-Lifer - you are completely incorrect in all your points here, except for the C77 being our version of SS109.

 1) The law you are citing from the Hague Convention says nothing about fragmenting.

 2) LOOK AND READ the ammo-oracle link I posted - It has the BEST open source data on 5.56mm wounding 

 3) The 5.45 bullet does not do anything special - in fact some woudl say it sucks MORE than the Russian 7.62x39 round

 4) MJP and I have C8A2 / C7A2's (and each a pistol too for those who care :) at work, debating what they have with us, is a little retarded...


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## KevinB (13 Jul 2004)

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/dec99-03.htm
Laws of War : 
Declaration on the Use of Bullets Which Expand or Flatten Easily in the Human Body; July 29, 1899
Declare as follows: 

The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions. 

Furthermore US (and Canadian) JAG rulings have been that Open Tipped Match (OTM) Bullets (also known as BTHP - Boat Tail Hollow Point) are land warfare legal as they small opening is derived from proces of manufacture and not designed to open (they dont open like a conventional pistol hollow point - they yaw and potentially fragement like most other rifle projectiles.


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## CF_Lifer (14 Jul 2004)

Are you sure the C77 IVI is BTHP? I dunno, I know the 5.56 and the 7.62 rounds I reload are all BTHP, but I'm not sure if the C77 is. I have seen both, and I dont think the C77 IVI is of that Quality. 
And yes, you're the ones with the Toys, and you know whats in them. All I said was the Diemaco Stock Factory rifles come with all the bits and pieces advertised. The C7A2s, as well as their upper, and lower receiver that you guys have, might not be fresh off the line.


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## AmmoTech90 (14 Jul 2004)

The C77 is a FMJ round but it does not make neat clean hole through a person unless it drops below a certain velocity.


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## MedCorps (14 Jul 2004)

From first hand experience I have seen someone shot  (in good old USofA while on a Trauma rotation) with M885 (which I think is the same as the Canadian SS109 / C77 round right?).  In surgery, there was plenty of bullet fragments inside the wound (2 hits).   The bullet did not hit bone, and both rounds were soft tissue / hollow organ strikes.  

I have also seen this fragmentation on X-ray and then on examination of the pig we shot on course (BBBI) down in the States (again).  The ammo used was the US M-855 and some older stuff M-193 they had laying around.  The M-193 rounds seemed to me (on X-ray) to have a litte more fragmentation (N=3) but the instructor said they are pretty much the same.  Not sure what the difference in between the 2 rounds.  

Conclusion.  Yep... M-855 and M193 round will leave bullet fragmentation in the wounds (N=9).  That being said while on trauma rotation in the states I saw one or two GSWs that were caused by "AR-15s"  The police being the identifer of the weapon and the round unknown (we would rather not see either in the ER).  One of them was a low velocity strike (after passing through some dry wall and other house clutter and hitting the person sleeping on the couch).  Round was still pretty much intact, and with 1" of penetration there was no fragmentation.   The other one also resulted in minimal (if any fragmentation).  Not sure why no fragmentation on civi street, but surely with NATO ammunition.  Maybe the gang-bangers are not using NATO rounds <smile>.  

Some thoughts... 

Cheers, 

MC


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## CF_Lifer (14 Jul 2004)

5.56mm C77 IVI - *** End


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## CF_Lifer (14 Jul 2004)

5.56mm C77 IVI - As well as the Business End, No Hollow Point. (Looking a little Mangled from a Bullet-Pulling Hammer).


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## CF_Lifer (14 Jul 2004)

5.56mm Hollow Point Boat Tail. 69g "Hornady" brand bullets for reloading.


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## CF_Lifer (14 Jul 2004)

5.56mm Hollow Point Boat Tail. 69g "Hornady" brand bullets for reloading. (Business End)


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## AmmoTech90 (14 Jul 2004)

CF_Lifer,

Not a good idea to be showing pictures of military rounds in your possession.   Or pulling apart military rounds.   SNC TEC does not sell IVI headstamped 5.56mm rounds commercially.   They market their civie ammo under DA (Dominion Arsenals).   Plus its got the NATO symbol so that makes sure it is a military round.   So if you are civilian where did you   get them?   Your dad was running some pistol matches at last years DCRA NSCC.   If they are passing intact ammunition to civilians (yourself) who did not use them to fire on the range you may have just screwed them.   Or the round was illegally removed from the range (theft).   Civilians may fire military ammo, but it has to be support of DCRA or a DND shooting team.   If you were a military member pulling apart ammo you could be charged unless you fall into a very narrow catagory of people who are allowed to.
Just a cautionary tale...use some common sense before posting pictures.

Of course if you got someone in the military who is authorized to take ammunition apart in this manner, and who just happened to have a requirement to take apart a 5.56mm round at the time you needed photos of it, thats fine.   What a stroke of luck and you can disregard everything I typed above.   Or if you got that round from a foreign military who SNC sold it to with that headstamp and you imported it correctly into in Canada the same applies.  Or you got the cart case from CADC or someone who bought from them and the projectile from somewhere else.  Of course considering the projectile was pulled I don't think thats the case.

Edit: Grammer


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## CF_Lifer (14 Jul 2004)

Not My Pictures


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## zak (15 Jul 2004)

KevinB,  do you have any pictures of the C8A2.  I have seen the pic on this website but i'd like to see a real picture of one... thanks


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## KevinB (16 Jul 2004)

CF_Lifer you have misread me again  :.

 SS109/M855/C77 is a FMJ-BT round -- What I had written was that not only were you incorrect on your discussion of the C77 bullet being illegal if it yawed and fragemented in tissue, but that OTM rounds were legal in rifles and the CF uses some versions of OTM rounds.


 I am getting a little annoyed with your so superior attitude in this matter, when clearly you have no real knowledge nor understanding of the topic at all.

I will recommned to the the www.IWBA.com  It has peer reviewed data on wound balistics, and instead of buy some guns and blammo tripe you should consider this a worthy investment instead.

-Kevin


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## Infanteer (16 Jul 2004)

CF Lifer:

Please refer to this thread:

http://army.ca/forums/threads/17343.0.html

There are many members on this board who have extensive experience with disciplines within the military.  Kevin B has a passion for firearms and works with them professionally and on his spare time.  Even the senior soldiers on the board often defer to him on matters relating to small arms.  Likewise for AmmoTech, who is one of the few in the Forces that deals with the ordinance we send down range.  These two are among a group of members here that have tons of experience and are willing to pass on their knowledge to those willing to listen.
You are not one of those experienced members.  You are not a member of the Canadian Army, but your handle seems to pass you off as such.  Perhaps you should pass basic training before deciding to refer to yourself as a "CF Lifer".  Also, please don't attempt to speak authoritatively on matters you have no first hand experience with.  As well, you don't appear to be one of those members who is willing to take in the advice and relevent information that is being disseminated here.  Instead of constantly trying to get the last word with information that some book supplied to you, why don't you shut your mouth and open your ears, because it'll do wonders for you down the road.

You are providing a lot of static to these means.  Turn it down a notch so we can get a clear signal.


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## KevinB (16 Jul 2004)

Zak,

 I have a few pics but no good ones -  

We are not issued C8A2's per sa - We have C7A2's but we have C8A2 uppers in addition (gets kinda muddled but the basic weapon is the C7A2)

 I will endevour to take a few good ones and post...

Infanteer - Thanks, I owe you.


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## zak (19 Jul 2004)

KevinB, much appreciated.


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## cpl forrester (20 Jul 2004)

another point to the pics of a hollowed out 5.56mm round.......... under the g.c geneva convention.... to tamper with cut or hollow a bullet or tamper with a round as to inflict more damage than would otherwise be done is illegal ..........so if was a dirt monkey that did it ( very very silly ) ......................a normal round is just as good no point messing with them unless u know what ur doing unless u want it to explode in ur face remember it only works as it sould in the safty of the breach of a firearms..................be safe not dead!


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## loyalcana (20 Jul 2004)

It is the Hague Convention of 1899 that prohibits the use of expanding or flatting bullets as well the use poison gas and at one point throwing explosives out of balloons.


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## CF_Lifer (22 Jul 2004)

- Dear Infanteer,
I have no problem being open to what other people have to say. I spent my whole 6 days up at the DCRA's NSCC (While not RSOing) listening to what people had to say about joining the Infantry. I Listened to there stories, good or bad, and their advice....good or bad. I respect, and love taking in the information that the experienced people on this Forum have to offer. People who have served for even more than a decade! 
To do with the CF_Lifer name, I plan on making a career out of the CF. Not a little stint for a couple years, or a 5 year RMC contract, with a super-Clique membership. I plan on staying over the 25year Pension Timelength. My whole family has always been in the Military, all throughout the commonwealth, and its just in me. Through and Through. 
On to the topic of Firearms...
For starters, if you check with Mr. Bobbit, he met us, for my T-shirt, outside of LeBaron's in Bells Corners, where we had just purchased the 9mm rounds we'd need for the DCRA's NSCC. My dad has been shooting since he was younger than I, and my grandfather dominated Bisley when he was in the Brit Army. We work closely with Mr. Keith Cunningham (Ex-DCO of the Sniper School in Gagetown) and Mr. Tim Kagetsu (THE best Service Rifle shot in the country). My dad is a licensed Armourer, and had built, with a gigantic amount of work from Keith, all of our weapons that we possess today. I'm sorry, I dont get all of my info from Books. As for shooting, the newest addition to the victoriies would have to be the ORA's Service Conditions Match #1, which I wont Top T, and beat the 30FD Arty, and the Naval Combat Arms Team. 
So I would appreciate it if you didn't slag me, before checking things out. Like I said, if I am ever in doubt about something theres always a "Correct me if I'm wrong". I am very open to people's opinions, and believe that the only way to get around, is to go off other people's senior experience. 
I cant believe a Topic on Assault Rifles has come to this....

Andrew


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## KevinB (22 Jul 2004)

:


Yeah I saw you get kicked out the first row in the pic taking, kinda like WTF is that kid doing there  ;D

I never saw you over at the Service Rifle matches, 30 RCA is a reserve artillety unit, the Naval unit I think you are attemptign to refer to is reserve as well the MCST team only showed up for the NSCC - and coudl not use their issue SIG's so they were penalized at bit.

Did you shoot in Helmet, flak vest and tac vest?

No I did not think so.


Spounting off to infanteer to try and look high and mightly on the internet is not going enhance your rep which was already on the slippery slope to mall ninjahood at it were...


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## NavyGrunt (22 Jul 2004)

Click on his msn profile next to his name. Read about his interests, then go to his website. Make your own conclusions. I've made mine but I probably don't need to share.   :


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## KevinB (22 Jul 2004)

CF_Lifer said:
			
		

> - Dear Infanteer,
> I have no problem being open to what other people have to say. I spent my whole 6 days up at the DCRA's NSCC (While not RSOing)


Exactly what did you do for your Dad?  



> . People who have served for even more than a decade!


 Oh like me  :


> On to the topic of Firearms...
> For starters, if you check with Mr. Bobbit, he met us, for my T-shirt, outside of LeBaron's in Bells Corners, where we had just purchased the 9mm rounds we'd need for the DCRA's NSCC. My dad has been shooting since he was younger than I, and my grandfather dominated Bisley when he was in the Brit Army.


 What has this to do with YOU?



> We work closely with Mr. Keith Cunningham (Ex-DCO of the Sniper School in Gagetown) and Mr. Tim Kagetsu (THE best Service Rifle shot in the country).


 Nothing against Keith or Tim (who are excellent folk) but.
 The Infantry School houses the Master Sniper cell - which is run by MWO's and WO's (albiet administrated by a Lt)
 Tim is an excellent shooter - however I must say you should look at the scorers before you run off at the mouth.
  ;D


> My dad is a licensed Armourer, and had built, with a gigantic amount of work from Keith, all of our weapons that we possess today.


So I am a Colt and Sig armourer - relevance to you?



> I'm sorry, I dont get all of my info from Books.


Which you already admitted too


> As for shooting, the newest addition to the victoriies would have to be the ORA's Service Conditions Match #1, which I wont Top T, and beat the 30FD Arty, and the Naval Combat Arms Team.
> So I would appreciate it if you didn't slag me, before checking things out. Like I said, if I am ever in doubt about something theres always a "Correct me if I'm wrong". I am very open to people's opinions, and believe that the only way to get around, is to go off other people's senior experience.
> I cant believe a Topic on Assault Rifles has come to this....
> 
> Andrew



Neither can I...


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## CF_Lifer (26 Jul 2004)

KevinB said:
			
		

> Yeah I saw you get kicked out the first row in the pic taking, kinda like WTF is that kid doing there   ;D
> 
> I never saw you over at the Service Rifle matches, 30 RCA is a reserve artillety unit, the Naval unit I think you are attemptign to refer to is reserve as well the MCST team only showed up for the NSCC - and coudl not use their issue SIG's so they were penalized at bit.
> 
> ...



Hey Kevin. Yeah, I was supposed to have a seat in the Front row for the Pic (Did Last year, check the NSCC Picture), but I guess Plouffe forgot my seat! My dad and Keith called me down to sit next to them...but I guess neither him, nor keith remembered that it was Bill's chair! No, I wasn't shooting service Rifle, as our AR-15/Elcan combo is quite out of comission. I shot precision, and won the 600m TYRO, I got f***ed over on the first few matches, because the trigger assembly that Keith had built wasn't working properly. I took it to his trailer that night, and went spent the night talking about matches with Jason Walker, and rebuilding it and the bolt. And for the 800, well....5.56mm doesn't do very well at 800. As for the helmet and Tac Vest.....when i wont Top TYRO at the ORA's Service Match, against the the MCST and 30 FD RCA, I was wearing helmet and '82 pat Webbing. I would wear a flak jacket, but A: nobody, not even the two CF Shooting Teams were wearing them, and B: I dont have $200 to spend on a useless Flak Jacket. And what WAS I doing exactly for my dad? ARSOing (Qualified RSO with the ORA/DCRA, did the Course run by Keith, as well As IPSC Black Badge and RSO Qualified) for him while he shot, and actually working the range. Seeing as how we were dearly understaffed, (Us two) I had to do most of the work while he was running the range. Maybe you dont know what it takes to run Practical, and Service Pistol matches? Especially when its one man RSOing, and the other doing as much as he can, when he isn't shooting his own matches. If you were there, I'd loved to have talked to you, two guys from the forum in one weekend! (Mr. Bobbit being the first) If you knew who I was, why didn't you approach me in person? We could of ratified our differences we had about the AK discussion.   All the rest of the guys there loved to talk to me between matches down at the Pistol ranges.


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## KevinB (26 Jul 2004)

Andrew - get a bigger hat  ;D
 I was only at the matches for the Fri-Mon I wanted to get back to my leave, I saw you twice (the first meeting which I was not sure if it was you and the picture).  My time was fairly occupied as I saw some buddies I had not seem since '94 and was catching up with them.


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## CF_Lifer (26 Jul 2004)

Hey Kevin. No problem, I hear ya. Coming halfway across the country, you probably had a few things planned already. YEah, my Bush cap is a Size small, hah, had it all through my cadet career. Served me Well!! 
Cant wait until I get issued a WBCH....then I'll put the bush cap into Permanent storage, as a momento.   ;D

But imagine that eh, only talk to me a couple times on the Forum, then you run into me halfway across the country! Hope we can stay in Contact, cause I hear they're sending people from the LCFA to the Patricia's. 

Andrew


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## mudgunner49 (16 Aug 2004)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> CF Lifer:
> 
> Please refer to this thread:
> 
> ...




About Goddamn time...


Blake


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## 1feral1 (17 Aug 2004)

Here is a recent pic of the ADI Australian made (under licence) F88SA1 with a M203 PI (made by RM Equipment, Florida - interbar is ADI designed and manufactured) 40mm grenade Launcher.

Enjoy,

Wes


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## 1feral1 (17 Aug 2004)

The other side...


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## MG34 (17 Aug 2004)

Hey that M203 mount has to be lowered to prevent cook offs with the 40mm round!!! ;D


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## KevinB (18 Aug 2004)

MG34 said:
			
		

> Hey that M203 mount has to be lowered to prevent cook offs with the 40mm round!!! ;D


 ;D

How foolish over them  :

Canada marching to their own drum...


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## Jarnhamar (18 Aug 2004)

Is that the reason ours are so low?


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## MG34 (18 Aug 2004)

Yes among others,even though there is no basis for the decision.


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## KevinB (18 Aug 2004)

MG34 said:
			
		

> Yes among others,even though there is no basis for the decision.



To make it to ungainly to use?


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## canadianblue (19 Jan 2005)

Sorry for being ignorant on this subject, right now I get most of my information off of Rainbow Six :-\ hopefully in the near future I will have a bit more experience. But I think the best gun is the M14, in my own opinion I prefer the older look and style. Plus whenever I've fired off some of those plastic guns it felt much akin to a BB gun but with more power.


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## Britney Spears (19 Jan 2005)

Don't you think it's ironic that the picture you posted is that of a plastic BB gun?


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## KevinB (19 Jan 2005)




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## eliteboris (19 Jan 2005)

Thats a fucking cool picture!


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## KevinB (19 Jan 2005)

But I guess my point was lost... 
 :

Kyle - you and Mike stop laughing.


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## Ex-Dragoon (19 Jan 2005)

Futuretrooper my _suggestion_ to you would be never to rely on info from a vid game or from role playing sites, use the actual company info from the actual manufacturer sites.


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## Infanteer (19 Jan 2005)

Future Trooper, Strike 2.

I warned you once to quit yapping about video games on the "Weapons" thread and to put your radio to "receive" (ie: quit posting on stuff you have zero experience with).  Keep it up and I'll put you on the launch pad.


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## canadianblue (19 Jan 2005)

Actaully, then I was actually looking at weapon sites for my info. The picture was also the best I can find. 

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as15-e.htm

So in the future I'll assure myself that you all know what links I go to, as well as exactly what books I read when giving you any opinion.


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## Infanteer (19 Jan 2005)

Here is a hint.  Handle the weapon in real life before giving us your opinion on it....


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## canadianblue (19 Jan 2005)

Don't worry, I'm shutting up right now before I make an even bigger idiot of myself.


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## CH1 (20 Jan 2005)

Any body remember "this is my rifle & this is my gun?"  Oh yeah the M14 is not an Assualt Rifle,  it is a Main Battle Rifle.


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## Glorified Ape (20 Jan 2005)

You missed the "your" vs. "you're" errors.   ;D


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## KevinB (21 Jan 2005)

:-[  I am a Infanteer not a novelist.

 I'll edit it again


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## jmackenzie_15 (21 Jan 2005)

is the M-14 still in service? Probobly- no, but ive seen pictures with the marines using them recently, im assuming that is for ceremonial/parade use?


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## Kal (21 Jan 2005)

M-14 still in service.  Mostly is use with spec ops or spec ops capable units.  The Marines issued them with a new pistol grip stock and Leupold scope back a few years ago to their NBC threat/warfare units.  They are starting to see more use as a designated marksman weapon also.


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## canadianblue (21 Jan 2005)

I might once again be mistaken, but don't some snipers in the United States Military use the M14, as well as some other combat units.


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## KevinB (21 Jan 2005)

The M14 is in service the 82 took them to Afghan and Iraq at the squad level as a DM gun.

 The USMC tried to make a M25 DMR out of it but found as they ARmy has that you cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.  The M14 can be an excelletn weapon - but it requires the FULL time attanetion of an armourer.

 The USMC has adopted the KAC Mk11 Mod1 as its Platoon DM gun (and the SAM a 5.56mm 20" KAC upper) as its Squad Advanced MArksman Rifle - the M25's are few and far ebwteen and will be removed as soon as possible.

 The Same goes with the ARMY - they now have a 20" and 18" DM weapon system (only USSOC has the Mk12 SPR's) in 5.56mm they are fielding and limited numbers of AR10T's (KAC cannot keep up with demand so the AR10 is beign fielded as a semi-reasonable handdrwan faximilie...


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## Big Bad John (22 Jan 2005)

I might once again be mistaken, but don't some snipers in the United States Military use the M14, as well as some other combat units.

M21D

Not a great rifle for sniper work.


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## MG34 (23 Jan 2005)

Yes you are indeed mistaken,the M14 doesn't cut the mustard as a sniper rifle,it never did as it was a maintenance intensive piece of kit that required constant attention.The current issued DMR are not sniper rifles,they are used to take out targets  at longer ranges than an M4 can,that's it. As it stands now the entire US Army has less than 100 barrels left for the M14 and are run out of spare parts,once these rifles are worn out/broken that's it no more.


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## baboon6 (26 Jan 2005)

Is the C7CT being used in the Canadian Army as the equivalent of the US SPR ie as a DMR system at the section/platoon level, or as a spotter's weapon in sniper teams (or both?). Also there was a picture of an AR-10 in Canadian service posted a few months ago- where is this weapon being used?


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## KevinB (26 Jan 2005)

Right now there are 18 AR10T's and 12 (IIRC) C7CT's in the CF (conventional forces) If you've seen some of Armalites sales literature you will know that the CF has more than 18...

As far as conventional force use goes they are OP usage systems.

 The AR10T is deployed with sniper teams as a C3A1 replacment (augment) and the C7CT in the dets as well  -- the C7CT is also det.section level in recce platoon overseas.

 Right now there are not enough for a complete issue (nor even close) this is to be rectified soon (yeah yeah yeah).  There is still discussion on the uses of the C7CT - where it is viable as a Section DM and have a AR10T at PL level - or just a C7CT at Pl level etc...


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## Pikache (26 Jan 2005)

Since I'm not a gun nut, what's the difference between AR10T and C7CT?


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## Troopasaurus (26 Jan 2005)

I have not seen either one in person, but as far as i know the main difference is the caliber's of the rifles are different. The AR10T being chambered in 7.62 while the C7CT is chambered in 5.56

Info on C7CT = http://www.diemaco.com/c7ct.htm

Info on AR10T = http://www.armalite.com/sales/catalog/rifles/ar10t.htm


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