# New CADPAT...what's causing the availability delay?



## coolintheshade (30 Aug 2022)

Some folks have been wearing it for over 3yrs now.....why isn't it in circulation yet, and what is it they're waiting for????


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## dimsum (1 Sep 2022)

Is the trial period over?  Has it passed trials with 3 RCR?  I'd rather they trial it for a longer period of time to work the issues out than rush into production.

Also, maybe supply shortages at the manufacturer's end?


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## Haggis (1 Sep 2022)

coolintheshade said:


> Some folks have been wearing it for over 3yrs now.....why isn't it in circulation yet, and what is it they're waiting for????


Possible fears that the colour scheme will clash with the implementation of HAIRFORGEN, maybe?


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## KevinB (1 Sep 2022)

I must say the color looks a lot like the original test pattern that was abandoned.  

I still have a trial shirt and the original small
brimmed floppy hat from the late 90’s.  
   Pants didn’t survive.


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## IRepoCans (2 Sep 2022)

The new pattern has been selected, they even have it printed out in quantities enough for uniforms, bush caps and rain gear. However, they don't want to have individual pers in mixed patterns (lol) because they haven't sorted out PPE / LCE (to include rucksack, daybag, tac vest) which isn't due to roll into use until ~2028 and the LIBs might get it because DICE/SOCEM-minor starts issuing out 2023.

In short, we still suck at managing basic equipment procurement, and the only people wearing the actual pattern have been CDS comd teams and other GOFOs with their CWOs.


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## Staff Weenie (2 Sep 2022)

I have just about zero confidence that I will see this gear before I retire. I've been in for 30 years, and I still have a mix of the old OD for winter kit, and two different types of CADPAT - none of it the latest version.


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## daftandbarmy (2 Sep 2022)

Staff Weenie said:


> I have just about zero confidence that I will see this gear before I retire. I've been in for 30 years, and I still have a mix of the old OD for winter kit, and two different types of CADPAT - none of it the latest version.



As long as you're wearing a glow belt, it's all good


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## dapaterson (2 Sep 2022)

If we assume 50k, Reg and Res, would be entitled to new clothing, and a cost of $1500 per person to outfit them, plus half again as much for the supply system to have on hand, that's $112.5M in O&M you need to find.  And I suspect that number is low.

I'm assuming that once in service the current national procurement budget will be sufficient, otherwise there's an incremental annual O&M pressure on the NP budget as well.


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## SeaKingTacco (2 Sep 2022)

dapaterson said:


> If we assume 50k, Reg and Res, would be entitled to new clothing, and a cost of $1500 per person to outfit them, plus half again as much for the supply system to have on hand, that's $112.5M in O&M you need to find.  And I suspect that number is low.
> 
> I'm assuming that once in service the current national procurement budget will be sufficient, otherwise there's an incremental annual O&M pressure on the NP budget as well.


There you go…being all “hey, how do we sustain what we just bought” and all…


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## FSTO (2 Sep 2022)

And the RCN is starting to issue its new NCD's so there is that pressure as well. Or does that come out of the Navy's budget and have zero impact on the CADPAT thingy.

Also, with this new CADPAT does this now mean that we can tell the difference between the Air Force and the Army?


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## daftandbarmy (2 Sep 2022)

FSTO said:


> And the RCN is starting to issue its new NCD's so there is that pressure as well. Or does that come out of the Navy's budget and have zero impact on the CADPAT thingy.
> 
> Also, with this new CADPAT does this now mean that we can tell the difference between the Air Force and the Army?



It's always been easy to tell them apart


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## FSTO (2 Sep 2022)

^^
Now to be honest those puftaas in the pool are Naval Aviators. Or is that why you used that picture?


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## daftandbarmy (2 Sep 2022)

FSTO said:


> ^^
> Now to be honest those puftaas in the pool are Naval Aviators. Or is that why you used that picture?



When you're the guy in the mud filled shell hole, everyone not in there with you looks the same


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## dapaterson (2 Sep 2022)

FSTO said:


> And the RCN is starting to issue its new NCD's so there is that pressure as well. Or does that come out of the Navy's budget and have zero impact on the CADPAT thingy.
> 
> Also, with this new CADPAT does this now mean that we can tell the difference between the Air Force and the Army?


Clothing is paid for by ADM Mat out of the NP budget, regardless of environment.


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## RedFive (2 Sep 2022)

IRepoCans said:


> The new pattern has been selected, they even have it printed out in quantities enough for uniforms, bush caps and rain gear. However, they don't want to have individual pers in mixed patterns (lol) because they haven't sorted out PPE / LCE (to include rucksack, daybag, tac vest) which isn't due to roll into use until ~2028 and the LIBs might get it because DICE/SOCEM-minor starts issuing out 2023.
> 
> In short, we still suck at managing basic equipment procurement, and the only people wearing the actual pattern have been CDS comd teams and other GOFOs with their CWOs.


Well I've been in 11 years now, and I've never been issued a flak vest off any kind besides the mouldy stack of 1980's era woodland camo American surplus vests for tossing frag grenades and the saddest, most worn out held together with duct tape CADPAT flak vest on my PLQ. Neither fit, because my size was out of stock. Some off my stuff is still OD too.

Everything's fine..


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## Blackadder1916 (2 Sep 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> It's always been easy to tell them apart
> 
> 
> View attachment 72899



Don't want to invalidate the sentiment, but "that's the NAVY".  Definitely not our Navy, but the only thing missing is a beach volleyball game (_not that's there anything wrong with that_).


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## MJP (2 Sep 2022)

IRepoCans said:


> The new pattern has been selected, they even have it printed out in quantities enough for uniforms, bush caps and rain gear. However, they don't want to have individual pers in mixed patterns (lol) because they haven't sorted out PPE / LCE (to include rucksack, daybag, tac vest) which isn't due to roll into use until ~2028 and the LIBs might get it because DICE/SOCEM-minor starts issuing out 2023.
> 
> In short, we still suck at managing basic equipment procurement, and the only people wearing the actual pattern have been CDS comd teams and other GOFOs with their CWOs.


I suspect that the move over to Logistic Unikorp for most clothing is also slowing the process as they will be eventually doing all the contracting not just distribution for clothing (as I understand it) in the future. Probably kicked the can down the road so LU can be in charge of the entire process instead of handing off a process in the middle of completion.


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## Navy_Pete (2 Sep 2022)

MJP said:


> I suspect that the move over to Logistic Unikorp for most clothing is also slowing the process as they will be eventually doing all the contracting not just distribution for clothing (as I understand it) in the future. Probably kicked the can down the road so LU can be in charge of the entire process instead of handing off a process in the middle of completion.


I look forward to poorly tailored cheap quality operational clothing available alongside my DEUs.


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## torg003 (2 Sep 2022)

Maybe the CAF should have clothing corporations bid on the contract and the winner gets to produce it with their name and logo on it.  
Lulu Lemon Operational Clothing line, anyone? 
On second thought, maybe not.


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## dapaterson (2 Sep 2022)

Government of Canada policy on procurement of clothing enters the discussion...

CAF clothing is made in Canada (by the lowest cost, compliant bidders); you'd be hard pressed to acquire a complete wardrobe of civilian clothes all made in Canada.


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## PuckChaser (2 Sep 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> I look forward to poorly tailored cheap quality operational clothing available alongside my DEUs.


Peerless Garments already makes our CADPAT garbage, excited to see how wise it gets when they're a sub contractor not the prime contractor anymore after Logistik takes their cut.


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## Kilted (2 Sep 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> Peerless Garments already makes our CADPAT garbage, excited to see how wise it gets when they're a sub contractor not the prime contractor anymore after Logistik takes their cut.


Logisticorps isn't actually making it themselves right?  They went beyond lowest bidder with the new balmorals, which my unit has completely rejected.

Also, they need to increase the annual points for killed regiments, all of our extra things cost a ridiculous number of points and kilts haven't even been put up yet.


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## dangerboy (2 Sep 2022)

Kilted said:


> Logisticorps isn't actually making it themselves right?  They went beyond lowest bidder with the new balmorals, which my unit has completely rejected.
> 
> Also, they need to increase the annual points for killed regiments, all of our extra things cost a ridiculous number of points and kilts haven't even been put up yet.


For more info about the Operational Clothing & Footwear Consolidated Contract (OCFC2) go to https://buyandsell.gc.ca/cds/public...6061/ABES.PROD.PW__PR.B756.E77636.EBSU000.PDF

It is separate from the non-operational clothing contract which is currently being used. I am not sure if it has been confirmed who was awarded the contract.


> The MCS will provide end-to-end management of the DND supply chain for Operational Clothing and Footwear (OCF), from acquisition and/or manufacturing to inventory management to distribution.
> 
> It will include professional and design services as well as configuration management. The successful bidder will supply DND with a complete supply chain management approach that encompasses program management services, professional services, manufacturing, warehousing and inventory management, order processing and management, and distribution and delivery.
> 
> The MCS will also provide an online Order Management System (OMS) for use by Authorized Users who will order items for Direct Delivery to the address of their choice.


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## Weinie (2 Sep 2022)

Kilted said:


> Logisticorps isn't actually making it themselves right?  They went beyond lowest bidder with the new balmorals, which my unit has completely rejected.
> 
> *Also, they need to increase the annual points for killed regiments, *all of our extra things cost a ridiculous number of points and kilts haven't even been put up yet.


Freudian slip, maybe.


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## rmc_wannabe (2 Sep 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Government of Canada policy on procurement of clothing enters the discussion...
> 
> CAF clothing is made in Canada (by the lowest cost, compliant bidders); you'd be hard pressed to acquire a complete wardrobe of civilian clothes all made in Canada.


Except boots, sports bras, menstrual undergarments; those you can purchase anywhere from any manufacturer because _gasp_ Canada doesn't have a robust enough industry to provide quality items that would be cost effective....

If only there were 4789 international vendors that could supply garments and equipment in a Multicam derivative we could get cheaper and in greater supply from.....

Damn... using logic again...


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## Humphrey Bogart (2 Sep 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Except boots, sports bras, menstrual undergarments; those you can purchase anywhere from any manufacturer because _gasp_ Canada doesn't have a robust enough industry to provide quality items that would be cost effective....
> 
> If only there were 4789 international vendors that could supply garments and equipment in a Multicam derivative we could get cheaper and in greater supply from.....
> 
> Damn... using logic again...


It's pretty bad when Red Army penal battalions have better kit than us 😆


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## dimsum (2 Sep 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> It's pretty bad when Red Army penal battalions have better kit than us 😆


Portyanki for everyone!


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## dapaterson (2 Sep 2022)

Kilted said:


> Logisticorps isn't actually making it themselves right?  They went beyond lowest bidder with the new balmorals, which my unit has completely rejected.
> 
> Also, they need to increase the annual points for killed regiments, all of our extra things cost a ridiculous number of points and kilts haven't even been put up yet.


Maybe then we should scrap kilts, if they're that expensive and add no real operational benefit?


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## dimsum (2 Sep 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Maybe then we should scrap kilts, if they're that expensive and add no real operational benefit?


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## Blackadder1916 (3 Sep 2022)

Kilted said:


> Also, they need to increase the annual points for killed regiments, all of our extra things cost a ridiculous number of points and kilts haven't even been put up yet.



Don't they still follow QR&O 210.346, which deals with grants for the purpose of "purchasing and maintaining the kilt, the sporran, the hose and the balmoral"?






						QR&O: Volume III - Chapter 210 Miscellaneous Entitlements and Grants - Canada.ca
					

Queen's Regulations and Orders - QR&O - Chapter 210 - Miscellaneous Entitlements and Grants




					www.canada.ca
				





> 210.346 - GRANTS TO UNITS FOR THE PURCHASE AND MAINTENANCE OF KILTED ORDERS OF DRESS - RESERVE FORCE
> (1) Subject to paragraph (2) of this article, grants for the purpose of providing and maintaining selected items of clothing, as prescribed in paragraph (3) of this article, for wear with kilted orders of dress for officers and non-commissioned members of the Reserve Force, may be paid to the commanding officer of a Reserve Force unit authorized to wear kilted orders of dress:
> 
> a.  when a unit is established, for each member on the authorized strength, an initial purchase grant equal to 60 per cent of the combined cost of the prescribed items of clothing, but not exceeding $253;
> ...


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## daftandbarmy (3 Sep 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Maybe then we should scrap kilts, if they're that expensive and add no real operational benefit?



They ensure a higher ratio of white folks per unit in the Infantry, which seems to be important if you want to be promoted to higher ranks (in the Militia).


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## MJP (3 Sep 2022)

dangerboy said:


> For more info about the Operational Clothing & Footwear Consolidated Contract (OCFC2) go to https://buyandsell.gc.ca/cds/public...6061/ABES.PROD.PW__PR.B756.E77636.EBSU000.PDF
> 
> It is separate from the non-operational clothing contract which is currently being used. I am not sure if it has been confirmed who was awarded the contract.


It is a good point...I am assuming that LU will be the winner but ya never know


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## PuckChaser (3 Sep 2022)

Kilted said:


> Logisticorps isn't actually making it themselves right?


I don't know if they actually make the DEU items, but nothing in our system stops someone from winning a bid, and sub (or sub-sub) contracting out the actual items. Every sub contractor wants their cut, so when you start hiving off 20% profit on lowest bids, you get some pretty garbage Chinese sweat-shop quality.

Ever wondered why the food in Meaford was so terrible (or at least it was when I was training there in mid 2010s)? CBO has contract, subbed out to another company which subbed out to another. The $15 per person for a lunch quickly turned into $5 (not exact numbers) so every haybox at lunch was footlong hotdogs with comically small buns and 3 suppers a week were frozen veal.


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## KevinB (3 Sep 2022)

dapaterson said:


> If we assume 50k, Reg and Res, would be entitled to new clothing, and a cost of $1500 per person to outfit them, plus half again as much for the supply system to have on hand, that's $112.5M in O&M you need to find.  And I suspect that number is low.
> 
> I'm assuming that once in service the current national procurement budget will be sufficient, otherwise there's an incremental annual O&M pressure on the NP budget as well.


What is included in that $1,500? 
  Because one could get 3 sets of Crye Combat Gear, a JPC, and a rucksack for that.


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## daftandbarmy (3 Sep 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> I don't know if they actually make the DEU items, but nothing in our system stops someone from winning a bid, and sub (or sub-sub) contracting out the actual items. Every sub contractor wants their cut, so when you start hiving off 20% profit on lowest bids, you get some pretty garbage Chinese sweat-shop quality.
> 
> Ever wondered why the food in Meaford was so terrible (or at least it was when I was training there in mid 2010s)? CBO has contract, subbed out to another company which subbed out to another. The $15 per person for a lunch quickly turned into $5 (not exact numbers) so every haybox at lunch was footlong hotdogs with comically small buns and 3 suppers a week were frozen veal.



And of course the senior Officers ate with the troops in the field, noted the deficiencies, and corrected the issues. Right?


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## dapaterson (3 Sep 2022)

KevinB said:


> What is included in that $1,500?
> Because one could get 3 sets of Crye Combat Gear, a JPC, and a rucksack for that.


Three sets, shirts and pants - $75 per piece, or $450 total.

Rain gear, top and bottom, $300.

Medium weight jacket, $250.

Parka and bib overalls, $500.

No ruck, small pack or helmet cam.

Those are off the top of my head estimates, and probably in the low side.

(Costs in DRMIS are stupid, with variable costs depending on sizing).


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## MJP (3 Sep 2022)

dapaterson said:


> (Costs in DRMIS are stupid, with variable costs depending on sizing).


Depends which cost you are looking at but the standard cost (can't recall the exact field name right now) we use is the procurement cost which is generally pulled directly from the purchase order.  There is some other weirdness but ADM Fin is pretty strict on how costs are tabulated and entered into the system


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## dapaterson (3 Sep 2022)

Precisely - ADM Fin determines the stupid costs.  Why a pair of 32" pants in the system of record costs more than a pair of 34" pants is not logical.


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## Kirkhill (3 Sep 2022)

You know.  There was something to be said for the old Olive Drab and Khaki uniforms after all.  The colours didn't run.   And fashion trended slowly.


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## IRepoCans (3 Sep 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> You know.  There was something to be said for the old Olive Drab and Khaki uniforms after all.  The colours didn't run.   And fashion trended slowly.


Something to be said about glowing under Gen 3 I2 and FLIR.


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## Eye In The Sky (3 Sep 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> It's always been easy to tell them apart
> 
> 
> View attachment 72899
> ...



Wow, that’s a small pool. Thank god for hotels.


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## Eye In The Sky (3 Sep 2022)

IRepoCans said:


> Something to be said about glowing under Gen 3 I2 and FLIR.



I’ve spent a few hours looking for and watching people on EOIR;  can’t say I would bet my life on latest gen material making me invisible to a sensor.


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## IRepoCans (3 Sep 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> I’ve spent a few hours looking for and watching people on EOIR;  can’t say I would bet my life on latest gen material making me invisible to a sensor.


Oh I agree, but treated camouflage material vs a solid tunic present themselves quite differently under I2.


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## Eye In The Sky (3 Sep 2022)

It’s late, long day and I’m getting old.  I2?  Maybe my brain just isn’t firing…


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## Good2Golf (3 Sep 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> I’ve spent a few hours looking for and watching people on EOIR;  can’t say I would bet my life on latest gen material making me invisible to a sensor.


Not still thinking that red light at night is ninja tactical, vice making yourself a brilliant beacon to any NVD…


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## SeaKingTacco (3 Sep 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Not still thinking that red light at night is ninja tactical, vice making yourself a brilliant beacon to any NVD…


Yeah. I looked at a supposed “darkened ship” while on NVGs one night. It might as well have been a cruise ship.

To paraphrase The Simpsons “These red lights, they do nothing….!”


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## PuckChaser (4 Sep 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Yeah. I looked at a supposed “darkened ship” while on NVGs one night. It might as well have been a cruise ship.
> 
> To paraphrase The Simpsons “These red lights, they do nothing….!”


Also acceptable answer:


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## daftandbarmy (4 Sep 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> I’ve spent a few hours looking for and watching people on EOIR;  can’t say I would bet my life on latest gen material making me invisible to a sensor.



'Dead ground' is the surest way to avoid being picked up by various sensors.

Sometimes the old ways are the best!


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## Kilted (4 Sep 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Maybe then we should scrap kilts, if they're that expensive and add no real operational benefit?


To be honest, I'm not sure why the army decided they would start paying for them.  Before they were provided at the regiment's expense, usually paid for by the regimental association, honourary colonel, etc.  They would however last for decades, if it wasn't for a recent order, the majority of the troops in my regiment would be wearing kilts that were much older than they were.  I'm not sure how well these logisiticorps kilts will hold u.


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## KevinB (4 Sep 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> It’s late, long day and I’m getting old.  I2?  Maybe my brain just isn’t firing…


Image Intensifier.  Or more commonly called  night vision goggles/sight/device.


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## Good2Golf (4 Sep 2022)

@KevinB, you get extra points for the rolled cuffs on the NOMEX flyer’s gloves.  #shootinwithstyle


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## daftandbarmy (5 Sep 2022)

Kilted said:


> To be honest, I'm not sure why the army decided they would start paying for them.  Before they were provided at the regiment's expense, usually paid for by the regimental association, honourary colonel, etc.  They would however last for decades, if it wasn't for a recent order, the majority of the troops in my regiment would be wearing kilts that were much older than they were.  I'm not sure how well these logisiticorps kilts wil



As I recall, the CAF allocated a Kilt grant to each regiment for purchasing/ refurbishing kilts.

I also recall there was no funding provided for dry cleaning said kilts.

Let that sink in for a minute ... before you gag


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## Kilted (5 Sep 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> As I recall, the CAF allocated a Kilt grant to each regiment for purchasing/ refurbishing kilts.
> 
> I also recall there was no funding provided for dry cleaning said kilts.
> 
> Let that sink in for a minute ... before you gag


That's why most people get a newly issued kilt dry cleaned before wearing it. It is basically like reissuing underwear.


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## CBH99 (5 Sep 2022)

Kilted said:


> That's why most people get a newly issued kilt dry cleaned before wearing it. It is basically like reissuing underwear.


Thanks for the tip here guys…about 21yrs too late, but good to know…


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## dapaterson (5 Sep 2022)

Canada's pseudo-Highland units were formed in craven attempts to appeal to ex-pat Scots in Canada.  Continued utility of kilts etc is questionable at best.


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## OldSolduer (5 Sep 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Canada's pseudo-Highland units were formed in craven attempts to appeal to ex-pat Scots in Canada.  Continued utility of kilts etc is questionable at best.


Agreed. Perhaps we need to move on. BTW I am of Scottish heritage.


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## dimsum (5 Sep 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Canada's pseudo-Highland units were formed in craven attempts to appeal to ex-pat Scots in Canada.  Continued utility of kilts etc is questionable at best.


Is this when I drop the little-mentioned fact that "clan tartans" weren't really a thing until the 1800s or after?



> It is generally regarded that "clan tartans" date no earlier than the beginning of the 19th century, and are an example of an invented tradition. Contemporary portraits show that although tartan is of an early date, the pattern worn depended not on the wearer's clan, but rather upon his or her present affiliation, place of origin or current residence, or personal taste.
> 
> David Morier's well-known mid-1700s painting of the Highland charge at the Battle of Culloden (right) shows the clansmen wearing various tartans. The setts painted all differ from one another and very few of those painted resemble any of today's clan tartans.[29] The method of identifying friend from foe was not through tartans but by the colour of ribbon worn upon the bonnet.[e][f]
> 
> ...


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## Kilted (5 Sep 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Canada's pseudo-Highland units were formed in craven attempts to appeal to ex-pat Scots in Canada.  Continued utility of kilts etc is questionable at best.


Not all of the kilted regiments are Highland regiments, one is Irish, some are Lowland, and some are Scottish without any territorial identification. The kilt today is part of regimental pride that brings together a unit regardless of their ethnic background. It works the same way as any other regimental symbol.


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## Kilted (5 Sep 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Canada's pseudo-Highland units were formed in craven attempts to appeal to ex-pat Scots in Canada.  Continued utility of kilts etc is questionable at best.


Not all of the kilted regiments are Highland regiments, one is Irish, some are Lowland, and some are Scottish without any territorial identification. The kilt today is part of regimental pride that brings together a unit regardless of their ethnic background. It works the same way as any other regimental symbol.


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## Eye In The Sky (5 Sep 2022)

Perfect “words twice” VP 👊🏻

🙂


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## dapaterson (5 Sep 2022)

And in seven years, with 90%+ of current members gone, if we were to eliminate those orders of dress, what would the effect be?


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## Gunplumber (5 Sep 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Canada's pseudo-Highland units were formed in craven attempts to appeal to ex-pat Scots in Canada.  Continued utility of kilts etc is questionable at best.


And we can get rid of Dragoons, Hussars, Rifles, Fusiliers, and all their fancy uniforms and tell the RCR and Vandoos to stop wearing scarlet and white helmets (And the Vandoos should stop wearing Guards bearskins} 

Maybe we should just have a green uniform for all......


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## dapaterson (5 Sep 2022)

Maybe instead of having time, effort and money tied up in useless stuff instead we could focus on, oh, I don't know, combat capability?


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## Gunplumber (5 Sep 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Maybe instead of having time, effort and money tied up in useless stuff instead we could focus on, oh, I don't know, combat capability?


I agree 150% but we all know its not going to happen. The CAF now is just a glorified welfare system.


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## daftandbarmy (5 Sep 2022)

Kilted said:


> Not all of the kilted regiments are Highland regiments, one is Irish, some are Lowland, and some are Scottish without any territorial identification. The kilt today is part of regimental pride that brings together a unit regardless of their ethnic background. It works the same way as any other regimental symbol.



Having been part of a couple of different kilted units, and a 'trousered' unit, I didn't see any particular problems with people wanting to join a unit where they 'had to' wear a kilt.

OTOH, my unofficial survey suggests that - with the exception of a few individuals - the kilted units are more 'white' than the others.

And, with that, I declare this thread officially derailed


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## Jarnhamar (5 Sep 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> And, with that, I declare this thread officially derailed



It wasn't a bad run for one of coolintheshades drive by pot stirrings.


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## Kilted (5 Sep 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> OTOH, my unofficial survey suggests that - with the exception of a few individuals - the kilted units are more 'white' than the others.


I'm guessing that you are joking about this, with the exception of units that located in areas that have no significant minorities, they do tend to represent the local population. Now, I suppose it's possible that infantry regiments in general might be more white, but I am only basing that on your statement. Nothing says diversity more than someone wearing a turban and a kilt at the same time, which is now super common.


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## daftandbarmy (5 Sep 2022)

Kilted said:


> I'm guessing that you are joking about this, with the exception of units that located in areas that have no significant minorities, they do tend to represent the local population. Now, I suppose it's possible that infantry regiments in general might be more white, but I am only basing that on your statement. Nothing says diversity more than someone wearing a turban and a kilt at the same time, which is now super common.



Not on the West Coast. Kilts = 'Honkey Show', pretty much.

Actually, South Asians, and other Asian folks, are grossly underrepresented throughout the CAF out this way I would say. There are hundrefds of thousands of them, but few join the CAF, reserves or otherwise.


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## dimsum (5 Sep 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Not on the West Coast. Kilts = 'Honkey Show', pretty much.
> 
> Actually, South Asians, and other Asian folks, are grossly underrepresented throughout the CAF out this way I would say. There are hundrefds of thousands of them, but few join the CAF, reserves or otherwise.


Move your armouries to Richmond/Burnaby/Surrey.  

Recruiting problem solved.  

I will take my $1000000000000 paycheck, thank you.


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## daftandbarmy (5 Sep 2022)

dimsum said:


> Move your armouries to Richmond/Burnaby/Surrey.
> 
> Recruiting problem solved.
> 
> I will take my $1000000000000 paycheck, thank you.



I have heard that since 1980. 

Nothing was done of course, except for spending 70 million on a huge armory in downtown Vancouver - with the Seaforth regiment/ platoon - where recruiting is the lowest, and always has been, in BC.

Today we can see the results of that inaction!


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## armrdsoul77 (5 Sep 2022)

Kilted said:


> That's why most people get a newly issued kilt dry cleaned before wearing it. It is basically like reissuing underwear.


Just imagine there is a story behind each skidmark.


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## OldSolduer (5 Sep 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Not on the West Coast. Kilts = 'Honkey Show', pretty much.
> 
> Actually, South Asians, and other Asian folks, are grossly underrepresented throughout the CAF out this way I would say. There are hundrefds of thousands of them, but few join the CAF, reserves or otherwise.


Maybe its time for oh I dunno ... a Sikh unit of some sort?


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## OldSolduer (5 Sep 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Maybe its time for oh I dunno ... a Sikh unit of some sort?


When I say that I am serious. AFAIK the orthodox Sikhs - I know a few here - are the warrior caste. You could conceivably start one and allow whoever to join.


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## McG (5 Sep 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Having been part of a couple of different kilted units, and a 'trousered' unit, I didn't see any particular problems with people wanting to join a unit where they 'had to' wear a kilt.


There is a danger in using people who joined a Scottish unit as the sample population for assessing why people might not join a Scottish unit.


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## daftandbarmy (6 Sep 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Maybe its time for oh I dunno ... a Sikh unit of some sort?


 
That would be the BCRs


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## CBH99 (6 Sep 2022)

IRepoCans said:


> The new pattern has been selected, they even have it printed out in quantities enough for uniforms, bush caps and rain gear. However, they don't want to have individual pers in mixed patterns (lol) because they haven't sorted out PPE / LCE (to include rucksack, daybag, tac vest) which isn't due to roll into use until ~2028 and the LIBs might get it because DICE/SOCEM-minor starts issuing out 2023.
> 
> In short, we still suck at managing basic equipment procurement, and the only people wearing the actual pattern have been CDS comd teams and other GOFOs with their CWOs.


Wait so we decided on the new uniform, modified camo pattern, and have enough material for initial uniforms, rain gear, bush caps, etc 

But we haven’t put it into circulation yet because it may not match our new tac vest, which is due in…2028??

They know it’s 2022, right?  Not issuing the new uniform because things may be different in 6 years is just…well…silly.  🤦🏼‍♂️


Can we go out and grab somebody from McDonald’s corporate side?  When they decide on a new uniform or uniform change, that seems to be implemented countrywide within a few days.  Maybe the special folks in Ottawa could be humble enough to learn a few things?  

(Sit down JTF, not talking about you.  You just keep doing you.)


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## dimsum (6 Sep 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> When I say that I am serious. AFAIK the orthodox Sikhs - I know a few here - are the warrior caste. You could conceivably start one and allow whoever to join.


Serious question - are non-Sikhs allowed to wear the Turban and have the rest of the 5 Ks?  It's one thing for a cultural wardrobe, but Sikhism is also religious.



CBH99 said:


> Can we go out and grab somebody from McDonald’s corporate side? When they decide on a new uniform or uniform change, that seems to be implemented countrywide within a few days. Maybe the special folks in Ottawa could be humble enough to learn a few things?


...like we have the budget of McDonalds...


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## Eye In The Sky (6 Sep 2022)

dimsum said:


> ...like we have the budget of McDonalds...


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## KevinB (6 Sep 2022)

IRepoCans said:


> The new pattern has been selected, they even have it printed out in quantities enough for uniforms, bush caps and rain gear. However, they don't want to have individual pers in mixed patterns (lol) because they haven't sorted out PPE / LCE (to include rucksack, daybag, tac vest) which isn't due to roll into use until ~2028 and the LIBs might get it because DICE/SOCEM-minor starts issuing out 2023.
> 
> In short, we still suck at managing basic equipment procurement, and the only people wearing the actual pattern have been CDS comd teams and other GOFOs with their CWOs.


So what I hear is MultiCam would have been cheaper and easier to field….


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## Kilted (6 Sep 2022)

dimsum said:


> Serious question - are non-Sikhs allowed to wear the Turban and have the rest of the 5 Ks?  It's one thing for a cultural wardrobe, but Sikhism is also religious.
> 
> 
> ...like we have the budget of McDonalds...


Do you mean someone who converted or someone who wants to abuse what's left of the dress regs?

Technically, the way the dress regs are worded, all Sikhs must wear all five. 

That being said, there are a lot who only wear the bracelet.


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## IRepoCans (6 Sep 2022)

KevinB said:


> So what I hear is MultiCam would have been cheaper and easier to field….


Funnily enough yes; it's also what they were pushing for originally in DLR-5 back when Multicam was a contender because they were looking at a system that would allow units to purchase COTS solutions should there be shortfalls / delays or failure to meet demand.

But something something something look Canadian...


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## OldSolduer (6 Sep 2022)

IRepoCans said:


> Funnily enough yes; it's also what they were pushing for originally in DLR-5 back when Multicam was a contender because they were looking at a system that would allow units to purchase COTS solutions should there be shortfalls / delays or failure to meet demand.
> 
> But something something something look Canadian...


You know the CAF - and the bureaucrats that decide this - really need to get off "it has to be Canadian" schtick.

"It has to be Canadian" brought us the Ross rifle, boots that disintegrated in the mud, web gear that was not up to snuff. Thank you for making it Canadian.

My grandfather tossed the Ross away and grabbed a Lee Enfield.


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## daftandbarmy (6 Sep 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> You know the CAF - and the bureaucrats that decide this - really need to get off "it has to be Canadian" schtick.
> 
> "It has to be Canadian" brought us the Ross rifle, *boots that disintegrated in the mud, web gear that was not up to snuff.* Thank you for making it Canadian.
> 
> My grandfather tossed the Ross away and grabbed a Lee Enfield.



Wait, are you still talking about WW1 or .... ?


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## rmc_wannabe (6 Sep 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Wait, are you still talking about WW1 or .... ?


It's been a running theme since the Fenians hopped the border in 1866.


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## dimsum (6 Sep 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> You know the CAF - and the bureaucrats that decide this - really need to get off "it has to be Canadian" schtick.


I'll suggest that it was not the CAF who proposed this.


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## McG (6 Sep 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> You know the CAF - and the bureaucrats that decide this - really need to get off "it has to be Canadian" schtick.


It is not the military nor the bureaucrats who decide this, and the CAF & DND have an obligation to follow the political direction.


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## Navy_Pete (6 Sep 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> You know the CAF - and the bureaucrats that decide this - really need to get off "it has to be Canadian" schtick.
> 
> "It has to be Canadian" brought us the Ross rifle, boots that disintegrated in the mud, web gear that was not up to snuff. Thank you for making it Canadian.
> 
> My grandfather tossed the Ross away and grabbed a Lee Enfield.


Becoming the exclusive Canadian distributor of something, and reselling it to the GoC makes it Canadian enough for some of the IRBs. If you set up a bit of a logistics system to make new 'Small and Medium Enterprises' you could get points left, right and centre on larger items that hit the contract values.

Honestly surprised some First Nations companies haven't partnered with American suppliers to game the shit out of GoC procurement point systems for RFPs, and make a profit off a bit of markup for jumping onto the distribution/warehousing side of things.


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## OldSolduer (6 Sep 2022)

McG said:


> It is not the military nor the bureaucrats who decide this, and the CAF & DND have an obligation to follow the political direction.


roger that - my apologies for my rant.


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## Halifax Tar (7 Sep 2022)

Sort of the same hemisphere...

Can we not get CADPAT shirts and pants to fade at the same pace ?  I've only been in them for a month and my 3 shirts and pants already look stupid together.

#canIhavemyNCDsbackplease?


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## daftandbarmy (7 Sep 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Becoming the exclusive Canadian distributor of something, and reselling it to the GoC makes it Canadian enough for some of the IRBs. If you set up a bit of a logistics system to make new 'Small and Medium Enterprises' you could get points left, right and centre on larger items that hit the contract values.
> 
> Honestly surprised some First Nations companies haven't partnered with American suppliers to game the shit out of GoC procurement point systems for RFPs, and make a profit off a bit of markup for jumping onto the distribution/warehousing side of things.



Trying to do business with the Federal Government is a horrible experience, and is not to be undertaken by anyone who has a shred of self-respect, or who is seriously interested in making a positive difference in this world, or the next 

Why Businesses are Reluctant to Sell to Governments​
Abstract​Why are some businesses unwilling or reluctant to sell to governments? In a survey of 3,282 business firms, Susan A. MacManus finds a generally negative attitude toward doing business with governments. When asking for specifics, MacManus found the five most-cited problems were slow payments, narrow bid specifications, difficulty in making contact with end-users, excessive paperwork, and competition from other firms. Firms with contracts cited different problems than those without contracts, and responses varied by type of product or service being provided.






						Why Businesses are Reluctant to Sell to Governments on JSTOR
					

Susan A. MacManus, Why Businesses are Reluctant to Sell to Governments, Public Administration Review, Vol. 51, No. 4 (Jul. - Aug., 1991), pp. 328-344




					www.jstor.org


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## Navy_Pete (7 Sep 2022)

I don't blame them, trying to do business from _within _the Federal government is a horrible experience. A lot of the items we buy are actually from re-sellers, as the OEMs can't be arsed to put in the bids, so the re-sellers basically specialize in jumping through hoops and make money off their markup. Probably a bit of a soul destroying way to make a living.


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## OldSolduer (7 Sep 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Sort of the same hemisphere...
> 
> Can we not get CADPAT shirts and pants to fade at the same pace ?  I've only been in them for a month and my 3 shirts and pants already look stupid together.
> 
> #canIhavemyNCDsbackplease?


Wait aren't you RCN?


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## Halifax Tar (7 Sep 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Wait aren't you RCN?



I'm on loan lol


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## OldSolduer (7 Sep 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I'm on loan lol


Let me guess you're the RQ of an infantry unit, probably 2 VP


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## Halifax Tar (7 Sep 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Let me guess you're the RQ of an infantry unit, probably 2 VP



Nah. Not that cool.  G4 Sup at a CBG.


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## CBH99 (7 Sep 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Sort of the same hemisphere...
> 
> Can we not get CADPAT shirts and pants to fade at the same pace ?  I've only been in them for a month and my 3 shirts and pants already look stupid together.
> 
> #canIhavemyNCDsbackplease?


Ahem, no.  They don't look stupid together... Just as long as normal people don't see you wearing them...

They look worn enough to not be mistaken for a brand new guy!  And, I mean, there _is_ such a thing as _too green_

#gowashthese5times
#orderabelgianberet
#cuttheliningfromberet
#bootbandsarefriends
#closeurfuckingmouthwhilewalking


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## Halifax Tar (7 Sep 2022)

CBH99 said:


> Ahem, no.  They don't look stupid together... Just as long as normal people don't see you wearing them...
> 
> They look worn enough to not be mistaken for a brand new guy!  And, I mean, there _is_ such a thing as _too green_
> 
> ...



I even asked for used combats to avoid this and there wasn't any lol now I'm stuck with different shades of shirts and pants lol


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## Skysix (7 Sep 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I even asked for used combats to avoid this and there wasn't any lol now I'm stuck with different shades of shirts and pants lol


Only to have to redo a bunch of stuff when Charles is king


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## Eye In The Sky (7 Sep 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Nah. Not that cool.  G4 Sup at a CBG.



That place still standing?   Heard the parking was expensive because of location.


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## Halifax Tar (7 Sep 2022)

Skysix said:


> Only to have to redo a bunch of stuff when Charles is king



Huh ?



Eye In The Sky said:


> That place still standing?   Heard the parking was expensive because of location.



Yup.  Great location!  Parking is something like 140$ a month.


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## Skysix (7 Sep 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Huh?


Sorry, quoted the wrong post. Was referring to anything with a crown having to be changed.


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## Kilted (7 Sep 2022)

Skysix said:


> Sorry, quoted the wrong post. Was referring to anything with a crown having to be changed.


The Crown likely won't be changing. The concept of a Kings Crown and a Queen's Crown is a myth. The first and last person to "wear" the King's Crown was a Queen. It's a long explanation, and I don't have time to get into it right now.


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## daftandbarmy (7 Sep 2022)

Kilted said:


> The Crown likely won't be changing. The concept of a Kings Crown and a Queen's Crown is a myth. The first and last person to "wear" the King's Crown was a Queen. It's a long explanation, and I don't have time to get into it right now.


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## Eye In The Sky (7 Sep 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Yup.  Great location!  Parking is something like 140$ a month.


 Crikies.  Taxable benefit vice deduction monthly though now at least?


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## Eye In The Sky (7 Sep 2022)

Kilted said:


> The Crown likely won't be changing. The concept of a Kings Crown and a Queen's Crown is a myth. The first and last person to "wear" the King's Crown was a Queen. It's a long explanation, and I don't have time to get into it right now.



I have cap badges from my former PRes unit that are definitely 2 different crowns.  ??


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## Kilted (7 Sep 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> I have cap badges from my former PRes unit that are definitely 2 different crowns.  ??


Yes, the Tudor Crown was used at one point, but it had nothing to do with the gender of the monarch.


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## daftandbarmy (7 Sep 2022)

The Tudor Crown... 'NATO standard' of Commonwealth Heraldry 


The *Tudor Crown*, also known as the *King's Crown* or *Imperial Crown*, is a widely used symbol in heraldry of the United Kingdom. Officially it was used from 1902 to 1953 representing not only the British monarch personally, but also "the Crown", meaning the sovereign source of governmental authority. As such, it appeared on numerous official emblems in the United Kingdom, British Empire and Commonwealth.[1]

While various crown symbols had been used for this purpose for many years previously, the specific Tudor Crown design was standardised at the request of Edward VII. It was never intended to represent any actual physical crown, although in shape it bears a close resemblance to the small diamond crown of Queen Victoria.

Upon the accession of Elizabeth II, she requested the design to be replaced with a representation of the St Edward's Crown (with depressed arches) which she wore at her coronation. Many, though not all, of the derived designs around the world were updated to match.

In Canada, the Tudor Crown has been used since 1907 in the Canadian Government Inspection Legend on inspected meat products. The inspection legend (or symbol) consists of two concentric circles: the outer ring has the word "Canada" at the top and a number at the bottom identifying the place of production; the inner circle contains a black and white rendering of the Tudor Crown.[









						Tudor Crown (heraldry) - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## Kilted (7 Sep 2022)

Look at which Crown the Queen is wearing on her coronation medal.


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## dimsum (8 Sep 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> Crikies.  Taxable benefit vice deduction monthly though now at least?


_Laughs in downtown Ottawa

Cries in downtown Ottawa_


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## Eye In The Sky (8 Sep 2022)

dimsum said:


> _Laughs in downtown Ottawa
> 
> Cries in downtown Ottawa_



I can’t select the Laugh and Cry emoji simultaneously.  There is free parking in ZX, though…


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## Halifax Tar (8 Sep 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> Crikies.  Taxable benefit vice deduction monthly though now at least?



Yup but its open 24/7.  So When I came to watch the national rugby sides at the Wanderers Grounds I had a place to park.  So it has its up sides. And all the amazing restaurants around us.  And the easy morning 5K to PPP an back. 



dimsum said:


> _Laughs in downtown Ottawa
> 
> Cries in downtown Ottawa_








I laugh, but I know its in my future...


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## Eye In The Sky (8 Sep 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Yup but its open 24/7.  So When I came to watch the national rugby sides at the Wanderers Grounds I had a place to park.  So it has its up sides. And all the amazing restaurants around us.  And the easy morning 5K to PPP an back.



I had season tickets for the Mooseheads at one point.  Never worried about parking or being late…or my tires being flat or missing.  😁

There was this one time the O Mess there had a mess dinner and hired Commissionaires for the evening…who tried to tell me I couldn’t park there even after I showed him my pass.   😝


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## Kirkhill (12 Nov 2022)

Ukrainians organizing kit for female soldiers, including pregnant snipers on the front line


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/yt53gl


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