# Another Afghan Arms Cache



## Brad Sallows (18 Oct 2004)

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Toronto/Peter_Worthington/2004/10/15/669611.html

Anyone know anything else appropriate for public releas


Fri, October 15, 2004 

Weapons cache stuns Canucks

By PETER WORTHINGTON -- For the Toronto Sun


Canadian soldiers attached to the Afghan National Army (ANA) have stirred up a hornet's nest in Kabul by being too efficient. 

They've "discovered" a huge Soviet ammunition dump a few kilometres from Camp Julien with the potential of obliterating the camp, as well as most of Kabul. 

That may sound like hyperbole, but I was with the Canadians who discovered the cache -- soldiers (mostly Princess Pats and combat engineers) who are training and working with the ANA and consider themselves to have the best job in the army. 
   

In the dusty foothills, 10 minutes drive from Camp Julien (population 2,000), 82 buried bunkers, each 20- 

metres long, housed thousands of Soviet FROG missiles (one step down from Scud missiles), and every variety of rocket and mortar shells. 

Some of the FROG missiles were still in their original cases. Some heaped in the open. Some stacked to the roof in the unlocked, open bunkers. Much of the ordnance had warheads removed to collect the explosive for homemade bombs -- or for blasting at a nearby quarry. 

"Unbelievable!" was Maj. Brian Hynes' reaction when he saw them. "We (troops of the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF)) have been here some two years, and no one knew this was at our back door. Unbelievable." 

In truth, the Soviet bunkers were well-known in an area supposedly under control of the Afghan Militia Force (AMF) -- not to be confused with the ANA. The AMF is paid by various warlords and so their loyalty is to them. 

The hero of the discovery was combat engineer Sgt. Mike Mazerolle of New Brunswick, who has run the observation post for eight days with ANA soldiers. They watch the valleys leading to Kabul. 

He saw people to his rear so he investigated and found the 82 bunkers "loaded with ordnance, and here I am sleeping next to a FROG!" 

He informed his boss, Maj. Hynes and -- eureka -- the cache was discovered. 

Many of the rockets, missiles and shells had been pried open for the explosives, which are used peacefully to blast mountain rock into gravel, and by those who want to make bombs that disrupt Kabul. 

"These bunkers have been known for two years but no one bothered to check them," said Maj. Hynes. 

"To me, that's incompetence." 

"To me it's criminal," said Sgt. Power, who works with the major in training the ANA. 

I've never seen anything like it. The feeling is that AMF soldiers were selling access to the dump or permitting friends to enter it. 

Littered with burned out Soviet military vehicles, the whole area is a junk pile strewn with every sort of live ammunition, fuses, unexploded shells, rockets, etc., all supposedly under the authority of Belgian troops (at the moment), who ignored it. 

In the midst of examining the bunkers and taking photos, a Swedish UN guy, a French major and a German colonel arrived to make a fuss and order the Canadians to leave. The French major insisted his government had a deal with the Afghan government for the area, and ISAF had no business being there. 

This cut little ice with Maj. Hynes, who is responsible -- not to the commander of Camp Julien, Col. Jim Ellis -- but to the ANA, which has now moved in to secure the site. 

The French major was clearly bluffing, hadn't checked the bunkers and got a classic Canadian roasting from Maj. Hynes -- who was supported by a German general who was also appalled at the laxity. 

"Now we've stirred up the hornet's nest," grinned Maj. Hynes. "Good. Now we may get some action." 

"I feel foolish that for eight days we've been watching our front, when at our back all this was going on and  nobody cared," said Sgt. Mazerolle.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (18 Oct 2004)

When I read this article I can't help but wonder about the same scenario in Iraq for the WMD, and of course we have to ask what kind of deal the local French major was getting. :-X


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## alan_li_13 (18 Oct 2004)

> a Swedish UN guy, a French major and a German colonel arrived to make a fuss


Sounds like the beginning to a joke, lol ;D


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## JasonH (18 Oct 2004)

Ahaha  no kidding ^


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## PPCLI Guy (18 Oct 2004)

Brian is a great guy, close friend, and on my "go to war list" - he really has his shite wired tight.  Good for him.


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## Teddy Ruxpin (19 Oct 2004)

Well, at the risk of offending people with my first post (ever!), I was involved on the peripheries of this "incident" and can say that the story is almost completely wrong.   Without accusing anyone (and I too have friends involved), there is a bit of editorializing here that is (1) inaccurate and (2) unjustified.   For instance, the list of people involved is completely incorrect (there was no "UN" guy, no German Colonel, etc.), as is the description of the ordnance "discovered".   There's a lot more to this - far more than can (or should) be posted on a public forum...


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## pbi (19 Oct 2004)

I side with TeddyRuxpin here.

I'm in the process of checking this out, but it doesn't make sense the way it's being reported. A find of FROGs, especially one of this size, and ESPECIALLY this close to Kabul would have been a hot topic both in ISAF HQ and up here at CJTF76, who track ISAF cache finds. 

As far as the "secret deals" go, it is a fact that the AMF in the vicinity of Kabul have generally been cooperative with ISAF during the election, and in fact probably helped contribute to the overall successful security of the capital city during the election. For this reason, it might conceivably be that this particular AMF group has not yet been asked to surrender its weapons.

Yet again, I am a bit unconvinced about the accuracy of reporting by visiting journalists, regardless of their military backgrounds.

If I can find out any more(and it passes OPSEC) I will post it. Cheers.


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## pbi (19 Oct 2004)

As far as I can make out as of this evening (19 Oct), very little is known of this incident at ISAF HQ, which is odd for something as important as the article suggests. In any case, the consensus is that there are no known FROG systems in Afghanistan. FROG (Free Rocket Over Ground) is  considered a heavy system, normally fired from a tracked or wheeled vehicle chassis. There are no known reports of such a system in the  CJTF76 AOO, and certainly not in Kabul. The attacks that the enemy has launched so far have been with 107mm or in a very few cases 122mm, fired from improvised ground mounts. Perhaps the acronym "FROG" was misapplied.
I am not questioning Maj Hynes, but rather the accuracy of the report. As Teddy Ruxpin suggests, the only conclusion I can come to is that there is more to the story than is being reported.

Peter Worthington's smug attitude about copping the AMF's toys shows a very superficial understanding of the complex situation that faces both ISAF and CJTF76 in dealing with the numerous different power groups in this country: friendly, enemy and undecided. What makes for rah-rah journalism may in fact not be a very good idea in the big picture. Cheers.


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## Brad Sallows (19 Oct 2004)

Yeah.  The FROG element jumped out at me as the most unreasonable of several questionable aspects.  However, it didn't seem like the sort of story that's going to get more MSM coverage to unravel the truth.


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## The_Solecist (19 Oct 2004)

_FROG 7 - Technical Data

Rocket
Diameter: 0.544 m
Length: 8.960 m
Wingspan: 1.700 m
Operational Weight: 2432 - 2486 kg
Warhead Weight: ca 420 kg
Range Max-Min: 68 - 12 km
Circular Error Probable: 500-700 m
Max Speed: 1200 m/s_

a] Not a missile...

b] 20 meter long bunker... say 10 m  wide, and 10 m high ... 2 FROGs long, by 20 wide by 20 high = 40 FROGs per bunker x 82 bunkers = 3280 frogs... ?

c] 2.5 tonnes per FROG - stacked to the roof you say... out of their cases you say? so the bottom FROG is supporting 22.5 tonnes of weight on it's side... hmmm...


Operational status from http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/wmd/ballistic/ballistic/frog7-01.htm

The FROG-7 rocket entered service in 1965 and was extensively deployed in the former Soviet Union (Azerbaijan, Belarus, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Russian Federation and Ukraine), Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland and Slovakia and exported to Afghanistan, Algeria, Angola, Cuba, Egypt, Iraq, North Korea, Libya, Serbia, Syria and Yemen. It is believed that Russian production ceased in 1972. Egypt exported some FROG-7 rockets to North Korea in 1975, and the North Koreans reverse engineered these rockets and started their own manufacture from 1979 to 1983. Despite the introduction of the SS-21 `Scarab' into the Russian Army from 1976 onwards, reports in 1994 indicated that 350 FROG-7 launchers and approximately 1,450 rockets still remained in service.
    A small number of FROG-7 missiles are believed to have been used by Egypt and Syria in 1973, by Iraq against Iran in 1980, and by Iraq in the 1991 Gulf War, although it is possible that the Iraqi missiles used were the Layth variant of FROG-7. Layth is an Iraqi modified FROG-7 with a submunitions warhead and a range extended to 90 km.
    Many FROG-7 missiles are reported to have been fired in Afghanistan over the period 1984 to 1999, but are believed to have been relatively unsuccessful. It is reported that HE warheads, submunition warheads and even possibly chemical warheads were used in Afghanistan against towns, villages, staging areas and main lines of communication. There have been reports of FROG-7 being fired by Serbian forces in the former Yugoslavia in 1993-94, by the Russians in Chechnya in 1999, and that some 20 rockets were sold to Angola in 1999.

Check the numbers... that would be twice the total FROG 7s believe to be in use as of 1994


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## scm77 (19 Oct 2004)

FROG 7






FROG 2 is much smaller and is fired from a PT-72 tank chassis.




Suppose it could've been FROG 2B but most probably a mistake by reporter.


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## Teddy Ruxpin (20 Oct 2004)

Just a follow up to my last and to PBI's post.  Since the information is now in the public domain, I'll clear a few things up.

1.  There was a single FROG 7, dismounted.  It appeared to be loaded with propellant and warhead.

2.  The rest of the rockets were 107mm, also dismounted.

I don't mean to be mysterious (especially as a newbie with no credibility) with the rest of what went on with this, but a great deal of the "political" angst is greatly exaggerated in the report - and I'll leave it at that!


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## pbi (20 Oct 2004)

Thanks, Teddy. That makes MUCH more sense. I was wondering how an incident of this supposed magnitude could have gone unnoticed. I have done a bit more checking this AM, and I can cfm what you posted. As well, ISAF has been fully aware of the cache for two years, and has been gradually removing the munitions and destroying them. A French EOD team was assigned to complete the destruction of the remaining systems.   The ETT didn't know anything about the cache probably because the ETT is not part of ISAF but of TF PHOENIX, the US TF that runs ANA training. 

I wonder how much "research" Mr Worthington did before hitting the keyboard. The remaining ordnance was   not sufficient to "obliterate" Camp Julien, let alone "most of Kabul". To me, this report along with some of the other stuff he has filed, might cause a skeptical person to question his reporting. I know I will in future. There are real stories to be told without making stuff up.

Excellent job on your first post! 

Cheers.


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## KevinB (20 Oct 2004)

Well I know there are FROG systems in Kabul - check out the ANA camp/range a Pol-i-Charki parked beside BM-21 and BM27 launchers...  (I have a nice digital photo that I took...)

 There are abandoned Russian Frog sites around Kabul with the launchers still in those sites (I would not recommend playing on them, but a Hungarian Patrol was hanging off the launchers taking pics...)


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## pbi (20 Oct 2004)

KevinB said:
			
		

> Well I know there are FROG systems in Kabul - check out the ANA camp/range a Pol-i-Charki parked beside BM-21 and BM27 launchers... (I have a nice digital photo that I took...)
> 
> There are abandoned Russian Frog sites around Kabul with the launchers still in those sites (I would not recommend playing on them, but a Hungarian Patrol was hanging off the launchers taking pics...)



Granted, and if he had qualifed what he was saying, that might have been OK. That is not what he did. Cheers.


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## KevinB (21 Oct 2004)

True, it appears he went off half cocked (I know what that is like...)


-Kevin


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