# Didn't ask the right questions at the CFRC.  Now I'm in and have some problems.



## RorerQuaalude (19 Nov 2004)

Got sworn in as an OCdt. in a reserve reg't two days ago and got my kit tonight. Currently on an RAOTP plan. I am quite confused here, mainly because I ended up in the Infantry. The truth was the Infantry was a distant third choice. At all stages of recruitment (Including the Officer Board) I indicated that my first choice was Armoured Recce. followed by a trade in a Service Battalion. Considering the Officer Board was for an Infantry regiment, I'd have imagined that if I indicated that Infantry wasn't my thing, I wouldn't have ended up there. Thanks to the amazing bureaucratic process I've managed to end up somewhere that I really have doubts about. I don't mean to sound like a newbie prick here, but should I remain in the Infantry I can foresee one of the two happening:

1) Quitting- A possibility, but also a waste of everyone's time
2) Dishonourable Discharge- Unlikely but possible, considering I'm far less likely to abide by the norms of somewhere where I don't especially want to be (sounds immature, but it's the truth)

I really do want to be part of the CF team, just not in the Infanty. At what point can I transfer to another regiment? Also, I never got my name strip, rank insignia or even the little flag with my kit. Do I get my OCdt stripe (lol) while on course? All I got was the cornflake (which I've no idea how to affix to the beret, as the clip mount is on the inside of the beret) and a shield shaped pin with the Army insignia on it. Any feedback would be appreciated.


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## 48Highlander (19 Nov 2004)

If you don't want to be Infantry, you should have told them that as soon as they slotted you.  As an officer you're supposed to be a leader.  It's bad enough when we get privates who don't really want to be there, we deffinitely don't need someone in charge who has no interest or enthusiasm for the job.

On the other hand, you may find out you like it.  Originaly I was applying to be a pilot, but was disqualified because of my eyesight.  I went infantry instead on a whim and I love it.  Do a bit of research as to what being an infantry officer entails, and figure out if your reasons for not wanting to go infantry are good ones.  And please, please don't ask others what to do.  If you can't even make up your own mind about wether or not you should go to a given trade, you should probably be reconsidering your decision to get a comision.


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## HollywoodHitman (19 Nov 2004)

I agree with 48th. 

There is also the other possibility that the army decided you'd be better serving them by being an infantry officer. As an officer you may not like the assignments you get, but professionalism dictates that you will say 'yes sir' and carry out your duties to the best of your ability. 
Try it. You might like it. Commanding troops is one of the greatest responsibilites and honors you can recieve in life, in my mind anyway. It's a privelege. The infantry is a good go. If you hate it, don't take it out on the troops. Keep in mind that if you get a dishonorable discharge, you won't be able to get a municipal, provincial or federal job changing toilet paper rolls in a government bathroom.........

Good luck to you.

TM


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## Tracker (19 Nov 2004)

What is RAOTP?  Is this something new?  

I don't understand how you got hooked up with an Infantry Unit if you wanted ARMD RECCE.  In the GTA, you  have to find a unit and be recruited through them.  If you had no intention of going Infantry, you should never have put it down as an option.


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## River Fenix (19 Nov 2004)

> If you don't want to be Infantry, you should have told them that as soon as they slotted you.  As an officer you're supposed to be a leader.  It's bad enough when we get privates who don't really want to be there, we deffinitely don't need someone in charge who has no interest or enthusiasm for the job.
> 
> On the other hand, you may find out you like it.  Originaly I was applying to be a pilot, but was disqualified because of my eyesight.  I went infantry instead on a whim and I love it.  Do a bit of research as to what being an infantry officer entails, and figure out if your reasons for not wanting to go infantry are good ones.  And please, please don't ask others what to do.  If you can't even make up your own mind about wether or not you should go to a given trade, you should probably be reconsidering your decision to get a comision.



 He was just asking for some friendly advice... we should really flame someone just because of a question that, in my/our mind(s), seems dumb or unacceptable. I remember when I was in my BMQ I asked some of the dumbest questions (and of course, laughed at the even dumber questions of others).. but now that I have some knowledge that Im sure others do not, I try to answer questions with some sort of patience and understanding.

Now, to answer some of the Original questions... the kite sheild shaped cross-swords w/ a maple leaf pin.. goes on your DEUs (Right breast pocket in the middle). The cap badge, your cornflake/pineapple, goes on the outside of the barret on the opposite side of the material that the cardboard plating is. You must use an exacto knife, or whatever, to cut a small slit through the material and cardboard.. so that you can fit the "arm" of the badge, through said hole, and securely fix it to the barret. (Someone correct me if Im wrong).

 As for the kit that you weren't issued.. you can pick all that stuff up at your local Kit distribution office/clothing stores. For most people, this is their home unit. For me, Since I live in the Ottawa area, I just go to NDHQ and get all my shit there.

 Also, Ive heard that if you do go directly to a recruiting center to be assigned to a Unit.. you'll get fucked over. The truth about the Canadian Forces, is that if you want something, you basically have to do it yourself.. or suffer the stupidity of someone higher than you. I wanted to go Artillery, so instead of getting stuck with the local Infantry units (CHofO or GGFG) I went down to my unit of choice and got Them to recruit me (not the CFRC). This ultimately led to me getting into my desired trade. A friend of mine applied the "other" way, and didnt even get the Infantry unit he wanted (HA! imagine that).

 Another friend wanted to go Armoured Recce, like you, so he applied to his desired regiment and BAM.. he was in. (And with *extremely* unual circumstances he was processed and sent on his BMQ in UNDER 2 months!.

Anyways.. good luck on your carreer with the military, and as an Officer. and remember, if you dont like the unit you can always transfer later... but give it a try, you might like it.

-River


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## portcullisguy (21 Nov 2004)

RorerQuaalude said:
			
		

> Also, I never got my name strip, rank insignia or even the little flag with my kit. Do I get my OCdt stripe (lol) while on course? All I got was the cornflake (which I've no idea how to affix to the beret, as the clip mount is on the inside of the beret) and a shield shaped pin with the Army insignia on it. Any feedback would be appreciated.



And now for some real help...

It takes a while to make those name stripes, although flags should be readily available.  Ask as soon as you get the chance, or on your first day of your course.  Normally, at the beginning of a recruit course, there are lots of admin issues such as deficient kit that need to be sorted out, and everybody is at a different level depending on a host of factors.  Don't worry it'll get sorted out, but keep on top of it.  Many of the recruits I saw at Meaford who had completed their SQ course, and/or were on their infantry course, who were regular force, still did not have their name tapes.

The beret has to be cut for the back of the cornflake to slide in to the proper spot.  If you are unsure, wait till someone can show you.

And as was mentioned, the shield pin with the army insignia (the area command badge) goes on your dress uniform, centred on the right pocket.  You may want to wait to be shown exactly where as well.

I have no idea how it works with the rank slip ons.  If you need them, they'll tell you.  It may be that you can't wear them until after BMQ or something, but as I said I don't really know.  Again, if you are unsure, ask.

Good luck, and don't stress too much.  You can always transfer to armoured recce or another trade if you really hate infnatry.  You may see some advantages to starting out in infantry now, and switching later.


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## Tracker (21 Nov 2004)

OK, that's nice, you have told this guy how to put his cap and Command badges on, now lets find out how he got screwed into an occupation he didn't want.

I still don't know what RAOTP is.  I've been in recruiting for four years and have never heard of it.  Is this a new plan?


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## 48Highlander (21 Nov 2004)

I'm guessing he meant ROTP.  Regular Officer Training Plan.


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## RorerQuaalude (21 Nov 2004)

Right, ok contrary to my previous post (i.e. griping about being in the Infantry), I decided to suck it up and stick with the Infantry (afterall, everyone in the Infantry seems to absolutely love their trade, so it really can't be all that bad), however quite the conflict has occured. Because the Inf. Reg't I was sworn into parades on Tuesday nights, I can't attend parade as I have a Tuesday night class, that is mandatory for my major. In other words, I have to attend this class and do bloody well in it to be allowed to enter the third and fourth year Honors program, otherwise I'm out on my ass (after spending about 6000$/yr of my own hard-earned money). Furthermore, the exam schedules were posted, and because the brilliant Registrar's Office at the university that I attend thinks that final exams on weekends are perfectly feasable I'm in a jam. Basically, I have one exam on a Friday (1700-1950) and then another the day after (Saturday; 1530-1820). This means that I miss a BMOQ weekend. Looking at it, I see that it's horribly unfair to both myself, but especially those involved in my training. If I can't commit to training or parade, I'm basically a liability. So, I was wondering how would I go about transferring into another Res/ regiment that parades on say, a Wednesday night. That would enable me both to not miss my class, and to commit to the job.


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## Michael OLeary (21 Nov 2004)

Tracker said:
			
		

> OK, that's nice, you have told this guy how to put his cap and Command badges on, now lets find out how he got screwed into an occupation he didn't want.





			
				RorerQuaalude said:
			
		

> The truth was the Infantry was a distant third choice. At all stages of recruitment (Including the Officer Board) I indicated that my first choice was Armoured Recce. followed by a trade in a Service Battalion. Considering the Officer Board was for an Infantry regiment, I'd have imagined that if I indicated that Infantry wasn't my thing, I wouldn't have ended up there.
> 
> Thanks to the amazing bureaucratic process I've managed to end up somewhere that I really have doubts about.



It doesn't look like the bureaucratic process is the problem here:

A. - He opened the door to a selection for infantry for it by offering it as his third choice.

B. - When sent to an Infantry unit for an officer selection board, he did not state he had doubts about being in the infantry.

C. - He accepted being sworn in to a trade he doesn't really want, having offered no objections along the way, and has now come here looking for a "way out."

Based on the information provided by RorerQuaalude himself, he has been the orchestrator of his own dilemma.

It is possible that the "first choice" unit and the "second choice" unit don't have space right now. Or that the local Brigade has dictated recruiting priority to specific units and his selection of three diverse choices was taken by the CFRC as flexibility of unit choice.

RorerQuaalude, if you didn't have any desire to be in the infantry, you should never have entered it as a choice.

As for your next step, I would suggest you start the basic officer training, since it's the same for all officer classifications. At your first opportunity you should submit a memo identifying that you would like to be considered for a transfer to a unit more of your liking.


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## McG (21 Nov 2004)

RorerQuaalude said:
			
		

> I can't attend parade as I have a Tuesday night class, that is mandatory for my major.


Did you realize this before or after being sworn in?


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## 48Highlander (21 Nov 2004)

Rorer:

Missing one BMQ weekend is sometimes acceptable, depending on the material being covered.

Will you have tuesday night classes after the summer?  That's all you need to be concerned with really.  While you're undergoing BMQ training, you don't need to be at the unit for parade night.  It's good to do it if you can, but it's not required.


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## Simpleton (22 Nov 2004)

Stay on the RAOTP program (which is the same regardless of Armoured Recce or Svc Bn) and start your transfer to a unit that you prefer.


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## Tracker (22 Nov 2004)

Simpleton

Do you know what RAOTP is?


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## bossi (22 Nov 2004)

RorerQuaalude said:
			
		

> ... I am quite confused here, mainly because I ended up in the Infantry. The truth was the Infantry was a distant third choice ... Considering the Officer Board was for an Infantry regiment ...



Okay - I'll ask a dumb question:  Is there an Armour unit in your town/neighbourhood?
If so, did you use your iniative and go talk to them?



			
				RorerQuaalude said:
			
		

> ... however quite the conflict has occured. Because the Inf. Reg't I was sworn into parades on Tuesday nights, I can't attend parade as I have a Tuesday night class, that is mandatory for my major. ... Furthermore, the exam schedules were posted, and ... This means that I miss a BMOQ weekend.



re: Tuesday parades - sounds like somebody didn't do their homework (i.e. the unit didn't know that you weren't available on Tuesdays ... but unless they're telepathic, I wouldn't have expected them to know your sock size, grocery list, and class timetable ... thus, they made a decision based on inadequate info - ditto for you, apparently)

re: exams - normally, one can request "leave" - in your case, I don't know what to say, except that you certainly seem to be getting off to a bad start.  At your unit, have you been assigned a mentor or "den mother"?  If so, ask for advice from them (i.e. instead of cyberspace).

If you're for real (and not somebody just trolling), Good luck.


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## humint (22 Nov 2004)

DO NOT QUIT ! I SAY AGAIN, DO NOT QUIT -- that will kill your record. Your best move is to continue training with the Inf unit until you complete the BOTP and then initiate a transfer to another unit. BOTP and CAP-R are the same for all land elements, so you are not losing out by staying in your current unit, doing the courses, and waiting-out. 

And, you never know, you just may want to stay Inf. 

Also, you can get excused from a course weekend for a good reason. You need to get authorisation from the course staff (not your unit). But, you will need someone in your unit (i.e. someone qualified) to cover-off the instruction that you missed on that weekend. In terms of your academic schedule, you may also want to wait until the summer and do BOTP/CAP-R during the summer training program.

However, I am curious ...

Normally, if you are applying as an officer, you need to get unit authorisation FIRST before proceeding with the actual application process. 

This means that you would have had to do the following:

1. have an interview with the unit recruiting officer
2. have an interview with the CO
3. have a unit officer board

Even if you didn't do any of that (i.e. interviews at the unit level), you still should have known that you were being pumped into an Inf unit when you went down there to get sworn in and then sized up for kit.

You've even received your kit, which means you been with the unit for at least a couple of weeks.

What the heck happened?

I'm curious from a unit recruiter perspective, and I want to know if things are done differently in your neck of the woods versus my own!


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## beach_bum (22 Nov 2004)

I have to admit that I'm more than curious about the same thing.  I've never heard of someone getting sworn into something they knew nothing about and didn't want to be.  Especially in the reserves!


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## Simpleton (23 Nov 2004)

Tracker said:
			
		

> Simpleton
> 
> Do you know what RAOTP is?



Reserve Army Officer Training Plan.


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## sigpig (23 Nov 2004)

To add to what 48Highlander said missing one weekend of a course won't be the end of the world. And missing tuesday night parades as an untrained ocdt definitely won't be a problem. As someone who has been there and done that (a looong time ago  ;D), the unit will get by without another photocopy tech that night. 

If you haven't already talk to your superiors about your situation regards parade times. The more info you give them upfront about days you can and can't attend the better. Nothing pisses people off more than surprise absences. As an inf ocdt try to ensure you get paired up with a qualified Lt pl comd on exercises, probably as his radio operator. You get to be there and observe what he does without any pressure or expectations of you. The more field time you get before course the better.

As has been noted basic offr trg is the same for all trades and even the first level classification training is essentially mostly infantry stuff for the combat arms offrs. Even if your goal is to reclass sometime down the road make the best of your current situation. Be positive, no one likes a whiner, the offrs of all the units talk in the mess and those of the unit you want to go to will talk to those of the unit you are currently in. Spending a year in the inf unit will give you good experience to present to any unit you may want to join. You would be much more desireable to a gaining unit as a basic trained offr who has done well at the unit than as an untrained civvy who is crying foul now. And you might like it! 

Don't shoot yourself in the foot now. Take what you've got and run with it. What seems like a long time now between courses, the opportunity to reclass,etc really isn't. You won't be considered a trained offr for 2-3 years depending on your plan so don't make a panicky decision now for the short term that will screw things up for the long run.


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## 1feral1 (21 Dec 2004)

For RQ: 

What province are you from?

As for about being an officer, do you think you have the qualities? Words like 'quitting' and 'dishonourable discharge' are not in any officer's vocabulary (no matter how junior), unless on the giving end.   

Soldiers are soldiers, but officers are supposed to be leaders of soldiers, I suggest you pull your head in and start accepting the role and the responsibility that goes with it, or you'll get no where gaining a non-confidence vote from your WOs and SNOs, and even worse your men.

It looks like it is time to squeeze the ole ball bag and muster up so serious testosterone. Man or mouse, its up to you. Leader or failure, whats it gonna be?

Go hard or go home!

Hopefully you'll take the responsibility to answer this.


Regards,

Wes


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## George Wallace (22 Dec 2004)

Tracker

Would RAOTP be a reincarnation of ROUTP (later RESO)?

GW


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## Meridian (22 Dec 2004)

I now fully understand why Ive been told to go to the Unit and not the CFRC.

Well that and CFRC Ottawa has mislead me on so many topics its not even funny. The most fun is when two recruiters say different things days apart.

But, that said, the military is always changing entry programs and training schedules and units are always changing requirements and such, so I guess it must be hard to stay on top of it all....

Anyway... RQ, if I were you, I wouldn't quit. As everyone else said, BMOQ?  (BOTP) is a requirement for any officer of all trades regular and reserve. So do it. Talk to your course instructors, be up front about it.

I wouldn't threaten the dishonourable discharge thing though. Or that you want to quit.
Work with them, and Im sure they will want to work with you (if they have gone to all the bother of selecting you).
Since your degree is a requirement of the training program (and retaining that pretty little commission you will eventually get) I'm sure they will want you to pass the course.


(On the other side, ALL universities offer deferrals). It may be too late now given that it is Dec 22, but when work commitments come up unexpectedly (as you may or may not be able to claim here), you can request a deferral from your Registrars Office if the military is not able to accomodate you.


There are always options.


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## Ghost (22 Dec 2004)

> Got sworn in as an OCdt. in a reserve reg't two days ago and got my kit tonight. Currently on an RAOTP plan. I am quite confused here, mainly because I ended up in the Infantry. The truth was the Infantry was a distant third choice. At all stages of recruitment (Including the Officer Board) I indicated that my first choice was Armoured Recce. followed by a trade in a Service Battalion. Considering the Officer Board was for an Infantry regiment, I'd have imagined that if I indicated that Infantry wasn't my thing, I wouldn't have ended up there. Thanks to the amazing bureaucratic process I've managed to end up somewhere that I really have doubts about. I don't mean to sound like a newbie prick here, but should I remain in the Infantry I can foresee one of the two happening:



Well you picked infantry.  If you didn't want to do infantry than you shouldn't of put it as your thrid choice.


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## jmackenzie_15 (22 Dec 2004)

Ghost said:
			
		

> > Got sworn in as an OCdt. in a reserve reg't two days ago and got my kit tonight. Currently on an RAOTP plan. I am quite confused here, mainly because I ended up in the Infantry. The truth was the Infantry was a distant third choice. At all stages of recruitment (Including the Officer Board) I indicated that my first choice was Armoured Recce. followed by a trade in a Service Battalion. Considering the Officer Board was for an Infantry regiment, I'd have imagined that if I indicated that Infantry wasn't my thing, I wouldn't have ended up there. Thanks to the amazing bureaucratic process I've managed to end up somewhere that I really have doubts about. I don't mean to sound like a newbie prick here, but should I remain in the Infantry I can foresee one of the two happening:
> 
> 
> 
> Well you picked infantry. If you didn't want to do infantry than you shouldn't of put it as your thrid choice.



exactly.But IMO, the infantry IS the army. It's the only way to go.Id much rather be doing this than service battallion or sitting in a LAV. At least give it an honest go.


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## George Wallace (22 Dec 2004)

Meridian said:
			
		

> I now fully understand why Ive been told to go to the Unit and not the CFRC.
> 
> Well that and CFRC Ottawa has mislead me on so many topics its not even funny. The most fun is when two recruiters say different things days apart.



Interesting that you should say that.   I was in there a few years ago when my wife was thinking of joining and found it peculiar that the staff were all Reservists.   Needless to say, I did not think that they were qualified to give any advice to anyone looking into the Canadian Forces as a full time career.   What knowledge could a Governor Generals Foot Guard Cpl or MCpl have about life in a Regular Force unit, PMQs, Pay and Benefits, Medical and Dental Plans, SISIP, SRSPs and all the other factors that a Reservist would not know about Reg Force employment?

Anyway, when the wife found out that the only Trades open were Navy Trades, including a couple of Comms Trades, I quickly hustled her out.

GW


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## Meridian (22 Dec 2004)

It is actually an interesting question.

I suppose it depends heavily on the priority of the forces - is it to get someone, anyone (who passes all the steps) into the forces, or is it to genuinely provide detailed information and provide a best-fit for the individual (and one  would then assume the forces?)

Has anyone seen those shows in the states that follows a few Marine Recruiters around... These guys go after people like no tomorrow, but "twist" the truth around so much....  Made me thought about my recruiter(s).

The one thing I did like about the Marine thing is that they really focussed on you like you were important... the CFRCs really dont do that.  I know volume and all of that.....  


But heres an idea:  If the Forces has funding for recruitment, but not training (for whatever reasons), why NOT have a few more reservists on class B in the office, calling people back and making them feel generally involved.  A little "client care" would help a lot... even if Im waiting for 6 months, if Im getting called every week just to be advised that Im not forgotten about (and quick suggestions/reminders/pep to go for that extra run, to stay fit, to head down to a unit and watch etc)....  Id lose interest a lot less fast....

That way, when the training system catches up, you havent alienaated so many candidates!


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## George Wallace (22 Dec 2004)

Meridian said:
			
		

> But heres an idea: If the Forces has funding for recruitment, but not training (for whatever reasons), why NOT have a few more reservists on class B in the office, calling people back and making them feel generally involved. A little "client care" would help a lot... even if Im waiting for 6 months, if Im getting called every week just to be advised that Im not forgotten about (and quick suggestions/reminders/pep to go for that extra run, to stay fit, to head down to a unit and watch etc).... Id lose interest a lot less fast....
> 
> That way, when the training system catches up, you havent alienaated so many candidates!



Apparently that is what the CF is currently doing and from reading other threads here, it seems like there are an awful lot of disgruntled people trying to get into the CF and becoming more and more disappointed with the treatment they are getting.  Many are not getting clear info on what the CF offers, no clear info on what a certain trade involves, no clear info on medical requirements or education requirements to join and other things.  Could this be a result of the CF employing Reservists in their Recruiting Centers?  

GW


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## Meridian (22 Dec 2004)

George, you may be on to something... Im going to start another thread so as not to hijack the discussion further.


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## 1feral1 (24 Dec 2004)

Hey Rorer, you still have not gotten back to answering my question on this (reply No. 19), and you are active as of 23 Dec (today Canadian time).

How about it? Are you avoid my questions and this thread you have created?


Wes


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## JB (27 Dec 2004)

Hello gentlemen:
Wow, what an interesting discussion. 

I just actually applied through Canadian Forces Recruiting Centre, passed the apptitude test and would be going to the next stages of the application process for regular army forces.

Unfortunately, I had not decided on the units yet which I would want to go to, and was told that I had good chances to get in for the trades mentioned on the application. Or I might not get in...you never know because so many people were applying...

At what stage of the application process with CFRC should be mentioned what unit I want to go to? Or  is it all should be mentioned after Basic and Trades courses? Then should I talk to the unit first?

Which units are good and which ones should be avoided? I applied for Resource Management Clerk and Supply Technician.

Thank you, 
Regards,

JB


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## harhem (30 Dec 2004)

JB said:
			
		

> Hello gentlemen:
> Wow, what an interesting discussion.
> 
> I just actually applied through Canadian Forces Recruiting Centre, passed the apptitude test and would be going to the next stages of the application process for regular army forces.
> ...



They will ask you during your trades training


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