# Paying Compliments (Saluting)



## darkskye (21 Jun 2013)

Hi,

So, I have used the search function and I have read the CF Drill Manual, but I am still a little unsure thus I am posting here.

During a ceremony (High School Graduation), the National Anthem is played, inside, do you come to attention or replace your head dress and salute?

Thank you,

darkskye


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## Remius (21 Jun 2013)

Are you in uniform?


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## darkskye (21 Jun 2013)

Yes


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## Remius (21 Jun 2013)

Dumb question.  Of course you are.  Is this your grad?  I'm pretty sure you have to keep your headress on for the whole ceremony inside or out until it's over.  Even as a guest.  So that should answer your question.


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## darkskye (21 Jun 2013)

No, it's my sister's graduation.

Thanks!


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## Fishbone Jones (21 Jun 2013)

Leave your headdress on during the ceremony, stand and salute when the National Anthem is played.


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## Smirnoff123 (21 Jun 2013)

Or just go in civvies.


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## Eye In The Sky (21 Jun 2013)

darkskye said:
			
		

> No, it's my sister's graduation.
> 
> Thanks!



And you're going in uniform why???

Without posting links to QR & Os and all that, the basic concept is 'you were your uniform when on duty or for/during an appropriate type of military function/ceremony'.  If you're Reserves, it's somewhat more defined and restricted.

Your sister grad doesn't seem to hit the mark (IMO).  Others opinions will vary of course.

Now, the military aspect aside, and again IMO, I wouldn't attend my sister's grad in uniform; it's her night, don't *upstage* her.  That's my  :2c:.


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## Old Sweat (21 Jun 2013)

Unless she has asked you to, of course.


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## Eye In The Sky (21 Jun 2013)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Unless she has asked you to, of course.



Yes, sorry I forgot about that possibility.


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## PMedMoe (21 Jun 2013)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> And you're going in uniform why???
> 
> Without posting links to QR & Os and all that, the basic concept is 'you were your uniform when on duty or for/during an appropriate type of military function/ceremony'.  If you're Reserves, it's somewhat more defined and restricted.



IIRC, there was a CANFORGEN not long ago that basically said if it was a function you would wear a business suit to, that DEU was acceptable (and encouraged (?)).  I think it was about getting the CF out in the public eye.

That being said, I also would not wear it to a high school grad.  Just my  :2c:


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## Smirnoff123 (21 Jun 2013)

Well im assuming that the OP is fairly new if she does not know to salute, so I imagine it would be CADPAT which is even more out of place.


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## Fishbone Jones (21 Jun 2013)

C.G.R said:
			
		

> Well im assuming that the OP is fairly new if she does not know to salute, so I imagine it would be CADPAT which is even more out of place.



We've had people of higher rank and time in here ask questions on the same level.

Quit speculating.


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## darkskye (22 Jun 2013)

C.G.R said:
			
		

> Well im assuming that the OP is fairly new if she does not know to salute, so I imagine it would be CADPAT which is even more out of place.



I am not fairly new, soon to be LS, thanks though. 

Thanks for the replies,

darkskye


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## PAdm (22 Jun 2013)

I wore my uniform to my wife's grad. Uniform is appropriate more often than we think. I kept head dress on and saluted anthem. I am also old school and will salute "a woman of acquaintance".


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## Humphrey Bogart (22 Jun 2013)

PAdm said:
			
		

> I am also old school and will salute "a woman of acquaintance".



I should try this at Jack Astor's in Kingston with the waitresses sometime!    The talent there is worth a slap in the face haha  ;D


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## PAdm (23 Jun 2013)

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> I should try this at Jack Astor's in Kingston with the waitresses sometime!    The talent there is worth a slap in the face haha  ;D



Or Moxie's!!


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## dimsum (23 Jun 2013)

PAdm said:
			
		

> Or Moxie's!!



Earl's, Cactus Club, Joeys...the list goes on!   :nod:


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## PAdm (23 Jun 2013)

Loved Kingston.  What was this thread about anyway?  I have seemed to have forgotten. My apologies...


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## Good2Golf (23 Jun 2013)

PAdm said:
			
		

> Loved Kingston.  What was this thread about anyway?  I have seemed to have forgotten. My apologies...



Laying your gabardine down over puddles and saluting ladies in the evening...  ???


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## PAdm (24 Jun 2013)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Laying your gabardine down over puddles and saluting ladies in the evening...  ???



In the evening or of the evening? Either works in the Kingston context.


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## George Wallace (24 Jun 2013)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Laying your gabardine down over puddles and saluting ladies of the evening...  ???



TFTFY


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## jpjohnsn (24 Jun 2013)

As long as we're discussing *when* to salute with the hand, can we take a moment and discuss *how* to salute?  

Contrary to popular thought, unless you are a wearing a peaked cap, the tip of the finger is not in line with the outside tip of the eyebrow or the arm of the glasses.   Everyone who has looked at the 201 forgets to read the last paragraph where it says:



> When wearing headdress other than a cap with a peak, the second finger is 2 cm above and in line with the outer tip of the right eyebrow.



Back in the day when everything was in Imperial, dress regs said that non-peaked headdress was worn 1 inch above the eyebrows (wedges/glens/field service caps above the right eyebrow).  The drill manual said that, when saluting with headdress with no peak, the finger tip was 1 inch above and in line with the outer tip of the right eyebrow.  Essentially, your hand touches your headdress - regardless of whether or not you wear glasses.

Now, dress regs say berets, etc are worn 2.5 cms above the eyebrow and saluting is 2 cms above the eyebrow but this is because they've rounded all measurements to the nearest cm in the 201.  The pic that accompanies the instructions shows that your hand touches the bottom of your headdress if it has no peak.

Not crucial, earthshattering or even super-important - just a pet peeve...


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## PMedMoe (28 Jun 2013)

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> I should try this at Jack Astor's in Kingston with the waitresses sometime!    The talent there is worth a slap in the face haha  ;D





			
				PAdm said:
			
		

> Or Moxie's!!





			
				Dimsum said:
			
		

> Earl's, Cactus Club, Joeys...the list goes on!   :nod:



Ah yes, what I call "cookie cutter" waitresses.  All interchangeable.  Robert Palmer's "Addicted to Love" video comes to mind.    :nod:


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## PAdm (28 Jun 2013)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Ah yes, what I call "cookie cutter" waitresses.  All interchangeable.  Robert Palmer's "Addicted to Love" video comes to mind.    :nod:



I miss Kingston........


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## dimsum (28 Jun 2013)

PAdm said:
			
		

> I miss Kingston........



Or Winnipeg.  Yes, I'm serious.

Long story short, a mutual friend of mine was a model scout for an agency based in Toronto.  He said that for Canadian models, most are recruited from Montreal (no surprise there) but Winnipeg was the 2nd-biggest recruiting source.  Must be the.....I have no idea.


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## GreenMarine (20 Sep 2013)

On the Ships Brow Officers are to be saluted (duhhh) but the traditional Mandate is to Salute all females in Civilian Clothing.

I didn't do the latter as the female was another serving NCM, buddy's GF/wife or Escort, or in my case my Mom or Wife (to which I need no brownie points from either.)


I wore my DEU to my old Cadet Sqn to which I was suppose to be part of the reviewing party but a miscue had me go to the stand (CO wanted me reviewing, his assistant didn't pass it on)
I Saluted, but had to be alittle harsh at the Cadet WO2 and Sgts thinking they were all that and above me. (Again the CO didn't mind.)

I think the best public display in Uniform was in 2004-5ish A bunch of us from the same unit were told to fly in Uniform...Long story short, it took each of us a hour to pass through security, are DEU's were done and some went though in their boxers...but it's funny how the public (especially Veterans ) stood up for the ill treatment we got from the Security Staff at Toronto Pearson.


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## dangerboy (20 Sep 2013)

GreenMarine said:
			
		

> I wore my DEU to my old Cadet Sqn to which I was suppose to be part of the reviewing party but a miscue had me go to the stand (CO wanted me reviewing, his assistant didn't pass it on)
> I Saluted, but had to be alittle harsh at the Cadet WO2 and Sgts thinking they were all that and above me. (Again the CO didn't mind.)



Maybe I am misunderstanding, but if you are on the reviewing stand and saluting you are not initiating the salute.  You are returning the troops paying of compliments (normally done by an "Eyes Right" as they are marching by the podium).  I don't see why the Cadet WO2 and Sgts would think they were all that and above you, then again I was not there.


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## Eye In The Sky (20 Sep 2013)

GreenMarine said:
			
		

> On the Ships Brow Officers are to be saluted (duhhh) but the traditional Mandate is to Salute all females in Civilian Clothing.



What.  The.  Fawk?



> I wore my DEU to my old Cadet Sqn to which I was suppose to be part of the reviewing party but a miscue had me go to the stand (CO wanted me reviewing, his assistant didn't pass it on)
> I Saluted, but had to be alittle harsh at the Cadet WO2 and Sgts thinking they were all that and above me. (Again the CO didn't mind.)



If you can handle some honesty, my reaction to this part was "get over yourself".  Going to your old Cadet Sqn, as a Cpl, and you think you need to jack up some kids??

 :


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## Occam (20 Sep 2013)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> What.  The.  Fawk?



Naval tradition dictates that all females in civilian clothing (except those known to be serving NCMs) are to be saluted when crossing the brow.


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## Jarnhamar (21 Sep 2013)

GreenMarine said:
			
		

> I wore my DEU to my old Cadet Sqn to which I was suppose to be part of the reviewing party but a miscue had me go to the stand (CO wanted me reviewing, his assistant didn't pass it on)
> I Saluted, but had to be alittle harsh at the Cadet WO2 and Sgts thinking they were all that and above me. (Again the CO didn't mind.)



Nothing screams awesome like going back to your old cadet unit and confronting a bunch of kids.  I hope you made that WO2 and those sgts understand that you're a real soldier and out rank them.


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## Eye In The Sky (21 Sep 2013)

Occam said:
			
		

> Naval tradition dictates that all females in civilian clothing (except those known to be serving NCMs) are to be saluted when crossing the brow.



Ahh ok that makes (some) sense. I misunderstood, didn't get the "when crossing the brow" part.  SMRT!


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## myself.only (22 Sep 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Nothing screams awesome sad, unprofessional and undermining the CO's Intent of having you as a guest like going back to your old cadet unit and confronting a bunch of kids.



FTFY



			
				ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I hope you made that WO2 and those sgts understand that you're a real soldier and out rank them.



Well I hope instead he'd make them think of emulating his example and joining the CAF, further stimulating their interest in the activities of their element. 

Y'know it's odd, I've worked with many Cadet NCOs who lead from the front, take their responsibilities quite seriously and could never be accused of being meek, but I've personally never met any senior cadets that confuse the relationship between their current Cadet and CAF ranks... and yet from this forum I see it's a pervasive concern. 
I will have to keep my eyes open for these creatures.


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## myself.only (22 Sep 2013)

Occam said:
			
		

> Naval tradition dictates that all females in civilian clothing (except those known to be serving NCMs) are to be saluted when crossing the brow.



interesting.  The 201 used to have a similar option for paying compliments to civilian females... no mention of the brow though...


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## myself.only (22 Sep 2013)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> If you can handle some honesty, my reaction to this part was "get over yourself".  Going to your old Cadet Sqn, as a Cpl, and you think you need to jack up some kids??
> 
> :



Well I'm not disagreeing with your assessment.


But I have to add, those "kids" are the product of 3+ years of mentorship, and training in leadership and CAF famil.  Furthermore, they're the ambassadors of the program and they should conduct themselves with that in mind. While I would expect all parties to treat each other respectfully and in a manner that reflects credit on their respective uniform, the Cadet WO2 and Sgts cannot use youth as an excuse for disrespecting any mbr of the CAF.


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## Pusser (22 Sep 2013)

Occam said:
			
		

> Naval tradition dictates that all females in civilian clothing (except those known to be serving NCMs) are to be saluted when crossing the brow.



My research on the subject limits this to service wives only (as an important part of the Naval family).  Girlfriends and the young lady a sailor has just met in a foreign port did not traditionally qualify, but times are changing.


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## Occam (23 Sep 2013)

Pusser said:
			
		

> My research on the subject limits this to service wives only (as an important part of the Naval family).  Girlfriends and the young lady a sailor has just met in a foreign port did not traditionally qualify, but times are changing.



My experience standing Bos'n Mate and Quartermaster on the brow ranged from 1986 to 1997, more or less...and I'm pretty sure it was SSOs that laid it out as "all women in civvies" (less those known as NCMs).  It was in every BM/QM pack I'd ever seen.


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## Pusser (23 Sep 2013)

Occam said:
			
		

> My experience standing Bos'n Mate and Quartermaster on the brow ranged from 1986 to 1997, more or less...and I'm pretty sure it was SSOs that laid it out as "all women in civvies" (less those known as NCMs).  It was in every BM/QM pack I'd ever seen.



I know that was/is the practice and I honestly can't remember what SSOs said then or even what it says now.  Unfortunately, brow packs and even SSOs are not always the products of thorough research when it comes to customs, tradition and history.  In fact, when it comes to these aspects, they are often simply a product of the prevailing opinion at the time, which is usually based on "somebody told me that someone told him ..."  What I can say is that the custom originated with service wives and was never originally intended to encompass all females in civvies.  Keep in mind that this also comes from a time when the only adult women you would ever see on a warship would be service wives.

One example of a custom that has changed as a result of misunderstanding is that of saluting when leaving a ship.  We all know of course that one salutes the quarterdeck when boarding a ship, but historically only officers are supposed to salute when leaving.  The reason is simply that you do not normally salute something that is behind you.  The officer; however, is not saluting the quarterdeck when leaving, but rather returning the salute of the Quartermaster and/or Boatswain's Mate.  Since the QM/BM are not saluting NCMs when leaving the ship, there is no reason for NCMs to salute on disembarking - yet it has become ingrained in the modern context and so has become the practice, despite the fact that there is no historical or customary reason to do so (and woe betide the young sailor now who gets caught not saluting by the Coxswain - a dissertation on the correct history on the practice probably won't do him much good).


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## PAdm (24 Sep 2013)

I believe it to be old school courtesy to salute a woman of acquaintance. I have saluted my aunt, the church ladies, etc.  I have no reference other than I believe it to be proper, polite, and akin to the good old days when respect was shown to such women. But hey, I still pull out the chair for any lady I am dining with.


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## Lightguns (24 Sep 2013)

Very old school, I salute the mayor, MPs, MLAs and funerals.  Females, I limit to formal occasions where a salute is permissible.  Always have.  I am not sure about now, but in 1980 in Cornwallis this was part of our instruction on the customs of the salute.  I am amazed that this is no longer common knowledge, 2 years ago myself and an MP cpl had to rouse members of all ranks from their cars for a funeral passing on base.  

A salute is the finest respect a soldier can provide to a someone that does not hold a commission.  That being said, I was taught by a grumpy ole PPCLI SgtMaj that saluting is not about the commission it is about your self-discipline.


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## myself.only (24 Sep 2013)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> ...I was taught by a grumpy ole PPCLI SgtMaj that saluting is not about the commission it is about your self-discipline.



+1 to that


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## medicineman (24 Sep 2013)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> Very old school, I salute the mayor, MPs, MLAs and funerals.  Females, I limit to formal occasions where a salute is permissible.  Always have.  I am not sure about now, but in 1980 in Cornwallis this was part of our instruction on the customs of the salute.  I am amazed that this is no longer common knowledge...



I remember being taught this too...and seem to remember it still is in the Drill and Ceremonial Manual, just things get glossed over or conveniently forgotten due to sleep deprivation.  Had to kick a friend of mine from Recruit School one time to salute someone else's National Anthem while we were in uniform - and then he got a lip on about it.  We were in the same squad in Cornwallis, did the same saluting test for our Cornflakes, etc.  Frankly, I see the problem as this: some people just don't give a flying rat's arse.  

MM


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