# Feds Cut Reimbursements for Military Health Care



## Haggis (8 Oct 2019)

I haven't seen this posted elsewhere on the site.

The Liberal government quietly cut the reimbursements it pays out to civilian hospitals that provide services to CAF members putting them on the same schedule and the same level of service as out-of-province patients.

_- mod edit to change case of thread title -_


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## jeffb (8 Oct 2019)

What is the practical effect of this, if any, for CAF members?


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## Humphrey Bogart (8 Oct 2019)

jeffb said:
			
		

> What is the practical effect of this, if any, for CAF members?



The practical effect is that if you need any sort of outside treatment like an MRI, you might be pooched.

Explains why I've been going through endless amounts of diagnostic BS to get a hip scan.  It basically means our members are last on wait lists and receive worse service than joe public.


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## ModlrMike (8 Oct 2019)

Unless they start turning away military patients, there should be no impact. Considering they're only obligated to provide emergency care for uninsured patients though, this would not be an unexpected outcome.


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## Ostrozac (8 Oct 2019)

This has been percolating for a while. One version of the story is that by calculating higher charges for patients outside of the primary provincial health care plan that provinces are in fact price-gouging and using military health care spending to in effect subsidize the rest of the system. Another version of the story is that the provinces are funded, manned and organized to provide health care to provincial residents eligible for provincial health care, and that providing such health care to those outside the system, like military members, is inherently a hassle and a burden, and they are well in their rights to charge a premium to those patients outside their core mandate.

The truth? Probably somewhere in between. It’s health care, it’s expensive, it’s complicated, and somebody has to pay.


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## The Bread Guy (8 Oct 2019)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Unless they start turning away military patients, there should be no impact. Considering they're only obligated to provide emergency care for uninsured patients though, this would not be an unexpected outcome.


Zackly.  Turning away, putting them lower in the priority list, loooooooooooooooooooooooonger waiting times - toe-MAY-oh, toe-MAH-oh.


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## Humphrey Bogart (8 Oct 2019)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Zackly.  Turning away, putting them lower in the priority list, loooooooooooooooooooooooonger waiting times - toe-MAY-oh, toe-MAH-oh.



It's all good, maybe I'll get that MRI on my hip by the time I pension out!

I can go through more rounds of voodoo magic pseudo-science physio until then lmao.


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## garb811 (8 Oct 2019)

> In August, Ontario Health Minister Christine Elliott wrote to her federal counterpart, Ginette Petitpas Taylor, as well as Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan, to express her concerns.
> ...
> “That’s why I was surprised and extremely disappointed to learn that the federal government, through the Canadian Armed Forces, is attempting to unilaterally impose a new fee schedule for the delivery of health care to serving members and veterans. These changes, which were communicated without consultation, could result in either undue burden on hospitals *or, worse yet, military members and veterans being charged to access health care services.* Neither of these options are acceptable.”



I have heard of a member receiving a bill from a specialist in the mail in the last month. At the time, I wrote it off as being an error that would be easy to fix because several years ago I was billed directly by an anesthesiologist because they weren't told I was military and I didn't have a provincial health care number on file. All it took then was for me to drop the bill by medical claims and they took care of it.

Now? If the Provincial Health Care systems decide to start to try to recover the difference between what CAF will pay for the in province schedule and the out of province schedule directly from members, this is going to get messy for folks really quickly.  What choice do you have if the options are paying a bill for several hundreds, or possibly thousands, of dollars that CAF is refusing to pay or letting it go to collections with all the good fun that brings...


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## Humphrey Bogart (8 Oct 2019)

garb811 said:
			
		

> I have heard of a member receiving a bill from a specialist in the mail in the last month. At the time, I wrote it off as being an error that would be easy to fix because several years ago I was billed directly by an anesthesiologist because they weren't told I was military and I didn't have a provincial health care number on file. All it took then was for me to drop the bill by medical claims and they took care of it.
> 
> Now? If the Provincial Health Care systems decide to start to try to recover the difference between what CAF will pay for the in province schedule and the out of province schedule directly from members, this is going to get messy for folks really quickly.  What choice do you have if the options are paying a bill for several hundreds, or possibly thousands, of dollars that CAF is refusing to pay or letting it go to collections with all the good fun that brings...



Bunch of people posted the same on CAF Reddit, about receiving bills from specialist appointments and being confused.


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## Halifax Tar (8 Oct 2019)

Don't military members pay provincial taxes ?  I hope none of that is going towards provincial medical funding then. 

Be awful shitty if they we taking our taxes and turning us away from the services we are in part paying for.


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## hattrick72 (8 Oct 2019)

If we pay the same taxes as residents why not switch health cards on posting the way we switch licences? We save them money by having our own primary health care doctor. Should be no different than a civilian GP sending the paperwork for an MRI or specialist appointment.


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## Jarnhamar (8 Oct 2019)

jeffb said:
			
		

> What is the practical effect of this, if any, for CAF members?



As it was explained to me, previously DnD would pay a premium  to have time slots open for DnD mbrs, say, to get an mri in the hospital. Need an mri? Probably get in next week or two weeks. Now you could be waiting 8 months.

Where is someone going to be in 8 months? 

Some specialists can also deny services to blue cross, which my MO said some of them have been as a sort of *** you to DnD.


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## Eye In The Sky (8 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> As it was explained to me, previously DnD would pay a premium  to have time slots open for DnD mbrs, say, to get an mri in the hospital. Need an mri? Probably get in next week or two weeks. Now you could be waiting 8 months.
> 
> Where is someone going to be in 8 months?
> 
> Some specialists can also deny services to blue cross, which my MO said some of them have been as a sort of *** you to DnD.



This was explained to me just last week by a military MO specialist I was referred to, a LCol.

He said the changes were actually recommended from within the CAF as a cost-cutting measure.  Effectively, the military will pay the same for a service to a hospital, Dr, etc as the provincial health system would pay, vice the "out of province" rate which is higher.  

Obviously, that means that health care providers have no motivator to prioritize CAF members;  we will go into the same waiting list 'hopper' as everyone else.  This is where the effect will be felt by the CAF.  Let's say Aircrew Bloggins is grounded until he/she sees a specialist for reason Y, or needs a test that can only be done 'downtown' (because the CAF also has reduced the number of specialists it employees as it is 'cheaper' to get things done 'downtown'...another cost saving measure implemented in the past).

So...the question is...how long can a CO afford to lose aircrew, divers, tankers, sailors, etc...and how much productivity will be lost from the total number of CAF members nationally who are all on MELs/T Cats/etc while waiting for specialist services from a given province??

That is the risk that someone has to assume, IMO.


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## garb811 (8 Oct 2019)

EITS:  You're right that we used to employ way more specialists in the past. When I first got in we even had fully equipped hospitals with surgical suites, labs, diagnostic equipment, the works, not only in Germany but at a few locations in Canada as well. We were pretty well set up to provide the services we have come to rely on from downtown but in the transition to the Health Clinic model did away with all of that and we've ended up embedding our specialist medical folk into civilian hospitals to try to maintain their skills, in some really strange locations as well. ie. A relative was treated by a Reg Force military surgeon in Calgary several years ago, why they were in Calgary as opposed to Edmonton where they could at least continue to be a resource for the military members there, I have zero clue... 

It's pretty sad when at O-Gps the Base Surgeon is continually reminding everyone not to attend the Health Services Center for an emergency but to call 911 instead because they just aren't equipped to deal with anything serious.


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## Furniture (8 Oct 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> This was explained to me just last week by a military MO specialist I was referred to, a LCol.
> 
> He said the changes were actually recommended from within the CAF as a cost-cutting measure.  Effectively, the military will pay the same for a service to a hospital, Dr, etc as the provincial health system would pay, vice the "out of province" rate which is higher.
> 
> ...



Was it recommended from the CAF in the same apparent way that the RCN said it didn't "need" a second interim tanker? Ie; heavily influenced by the political masters, using 'the CAF said it" as the protection from repercussions if it doesn't go over well?


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## Humphrey Bogart (8 Oct 2019)

Furniture said:
			
		

> Was it recommended from the CAF in the same apparent way that the RCN said it didn't "need" a second interim tanker? Ie; heavily influenced by the political masters, using 'the CAF said it" as the protection from repercussions if it doesn't go over well?



Sounds about right  :nod:


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## daftandbarmy (8 Oct 2019)

Furniture said:
			
		

> Was it recommended from the CAF in the same apparent way that the RCN said it didn't "need" a second interim tanker? Ie; heavily influenced by the political masters, using 'the CAF said it" as the protection from repercussions if it doesn't go over well?



IOW: ‘F@ck the troops, they have their ponchos. And I have a career to get on with.’


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## brihard (8 Oct 2019)

RCMP went from CAF-style health services to the provincial civilian health plans back in the DRAP days. A lot of members are sitting off on restricted duties waiting many months for MRIs...

Don’t get me wrong; in a lot of places I see it making sense to get primary care through the civilian system... *But* where delays in specialist diagnostics and treatments keeps people on TCAT, that becomes an operational problem that may call for operational solutions.


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## Eye In The Sky (8 Oct 2019)

Furniture said:
			
		

> Was it recommended from the CAF in the same apparent way that the RCN said it didn't "need" a second interim tanker? Ie; heavily influenced by the political masters, using 'the CAF said it" as the protection from repercussions if it doesn't go over well?



Not the way he said it, actually.  It was (IIRC) a recommendation 'at the General level, inside the Health Svcs Group' or words to that affect.


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## Kilted (9 Oct 2019)

Well this effect us for non-service related issues if we have a provincial health card?

Well this work out to the point that if I hurt myself while not on military time I'm covered, but if I hurt myself in uniform I may have to pay for it myself?


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## Ostrozac (9 Oct 2019)

Kilted said:
			
		

> Well this effect us for non-service related issues if we have a provincial health card?
> 
> Well this work out to the point that if I hurt myself while not on military time I'm covered, but if I hurt myself in uniform I may have to pay for it myself?



I’d be careful with that. If you’re in the Reg Force and using a provincial health card that you are no longer eligible for, that’s getting pretty close to fraud. The Canada Health Act says that CAF members (and prisoners, and newcomers for the first 90 days) aren’t insured by the province.


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## Kilted (9 Oct 2019)

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> I’d be careful with that. If you’re in the Reg Force and using a provincial health card that you are no longer eligible for, that’s getting pretty close to fraud. The Canada Health Act says that CAF members (and prisoners, and newcomers for the first 90 days) aren’t insured by the province.



I'm a Reservist, I figured my name gave that away. Although some reservists are on Blue Cross. That's what I meant by not on military time.


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## SeaKingTacco (9 Oct 2019)

It can get complicated, fast, for some reservists WRT which medical system (CF or military) you would seek attention or treatment.

The Reserve Aircrew I know all see military flight surgeons (when you can find one) for anything that may impact their ability to fly. Other than that, they tend to see their civilian GP (if they have one). Some situations/conditions are not cut and dried, however.


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## Eye In The Sky (9 Oct 2019)

Kilted said:
			
		

> Well this effect us for non-service related issues if we have a provincial health card?
> 
> Well this work out to the point that if I hurt myself while not on military time I'm covered, but if I hurt myself in uniform I may have to pay for it myself?



No, not the way I was made to understand it.  You just won't necessarily get faster service/shorter wait times, as the health care provider won't be getting more for their services to you than they would any covered under the applic provincial health care system.


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## Quirky (9 Oct 2019)

Good. We should not be getting  special treatment and jumping the line at hospitals for specialists appointments and MIRs. If we use provincial services we need to wait like everyone else. How this impacts operations with more people not deployable and on tcats are problems for commanders to figure out.


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## Jarnhamar (9 Oct 2019)

Quirky said:
			
		

> Good. We should not be getting  special treatment and jumping the line at hospitals for specialists appointments and MIRs. If we use provincial services we need to wait like everyone else. *How this impacts operations with more people not deployable and on tcats are problems for commanders to figure out.*



Except it's going to be the healthy members who get screwed over and pick up the slack.


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## Eye In The Sky (9 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Except it's going to be the healthy members who get screwed over and pick up the slack.



And then those healthy members become unhealthy, pissed off...wash, rinse, repeat and the big tail-chasing exercise begins again...


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## The Bread Guy (9 Oct 2019)

Some of the latest ....

_*"Alberta Health Minister Tyler Shandro is calling on the federal government to reverse a decision that will see provinces pick up more of the cost of treating members of the military for medical operations and other health care ..."*_ (The Canadian Press)
_*"Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau promised Wednesday that military personnel will not suffer as a result of a battle over money that is playing out between the federal government and the provinces, which has already elicited strong words from Ontario, Alberta and Manitoba ..."*_ (The Canadian Press)
_*"... Pembroke Regional Hospital, located near the Canadian Forces Base at Petawawa, projects a shortfall of $3.4 million as a result of the change ..."*_ (baytoday.ca, North Bay media)


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## brihard (9 Oct 2019)

So why have the provinces been able to get away with price-gouging the military for so long?


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## Eye In The Sky (9 Oct 2019)

Quirky said:
			
		

> Good. We should not be getting  special treatment and jumping the line at hospitals for specialists appointments and MIRs. If we use provincial services we need to wait like everyone else. How this impacts operations with more people not deployable and on tcats are problems for commanders to figure out.



I don't personally agree with this;  should all of us in the CAF 'jump the queue'?  Probably not.  Should we if it can have an actual detrimental affect on operational capability?  In that case, I say yes.  

- Divers, aircrew, submariners are examples of some fairly specialized, hard-to-replace quickly NCMs and Officers who might be considered higher priority.  Our SOF community...another example.  Not only is the training to get them operational costly...we have fairly low numbers of all in those specialties pan-CAF.   Should that apply to anyone who is in an aircrew MOSID?  Nope...just the ones occupying designated flying positions.  Same for navy divers, submariners, etc.  It might be some overheard to manage (more so on the Army side, to identify/forecast high readiness units and manning) but...it might work.

Jimmy or Jane, the postie working 8-4 with no forecasted deployments in the 'expected waiting time in their province'?  Not so much of a requirement for excelled timeline healthcare, IMO.

Of course...the CAF could open up something like NDMC again, and offer everything possible in terms of specialist care...not holding my breath on that one.


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## Quirky (9 Oct 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I don't personally agree with this;  should all of us in the CAF 'jump the queue'?  Probably not.  Should we if it can have an actual detrimental affect on operational capability?  In that case, I say yes.
> 
> - Divers, aircrew, submariners are examples of some fairly specialized, hard-to-replace quickly NCMs and Officers who might be considered higher priority.  Our SOF community...another example.  Not only is the training to get them operational costly...we have fairly low numbers of all in those specialties pan-CAF.   Should that apply to anyone who is in an aircrew MOSID?  Nope...just the ones occupying designated flying positions.  Same for navy divers, submariners, etc.  It might be some overheard to manage (more so on the Army side, to identify/forecast high readiness units and manning) but...it might work.
> 
> ...



This can quickly turn into a mess when pilots/aircrew are grounded for extended periods of time due to appointment scheduling.


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## garb811 (10 Oct 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> So why have the provinces been able to get away with price-gouging the military for so long?


Unless we know the actual terms agreed when we (CAF) started offloading the specialty services from internal to external, I don't think I would call it price gouging.  As one of the complaints of the provinces who are speaking about this is that it was a "unilateral" decision, it is quite probable that CAF agreed to the out of province rate schedule based on the clear cut fact that we aren't members of the provincial plan, with the added bonus of being "preferred" patients who skip the wait list... 

It would be interesting to know what schedule is used for all of the other pers who are under the federal vice provincial umbrellas for health care (First Nations people living on reserves; Inuit; eligible veterans; inmates in federal penitentiaries...)


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## Furniture (10 Oct 2019)

garb811 said:
			
		

> Unless we know the actual terms agreed when we (CAF) started offloading the specialty services from internal to external, I don't think I would call it price gouging.  As one of the complaints of the provinces who are speaking about this is that it was a "unilateral" decision, it is quite probable that CAF agreed to the out of province rate schedule based on the clear cut fact that we aren't members of the provincial plan, with the added bonus of being "preferred" patients who skip the wait list...
> 
> It would be interesting to know what schedule is used for all of the other pers who are under the federal vice provincial umbrellas for health care (First Nations people living on reserves; Inuit; eligible veterans; inmates in federal penitentiaries...)



I'm sure the next step will be all CAF members will have to pay provincial health fees, which is yet another pay cut described in a different way.


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## JesseWZ (10 Oct 2019)

I got to say, I’m a bit bewildered this situation passed the Globe and Mail test in somebodies office - and during an election year no less.


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## observor 69 (10 Oct 2019)

And more reaction to the change:
Alberta government calls on Ottawa to reverse military health funding change
Alberta Health Minister Tyler Shandro is calling on the federal government to reverse a decision that will see provinces pick up more of the cost of treating members of the military for medical operations and other health care.

Shandro says the Alberta government was not consulted about the change, which will cost the province about $2 million per year.

Last year, the province budgeted to spend more than $22 billion on health care.

Manitoba Health Minister Cameron Friesen is also critical of the change, noting it could cost his province almost $1 million.

Global News has reported that Ottawa has been renegotiating new reimbursement agreements with provinces, which has raised fears some hospitals close to Canadian Forces bases that regularly treat military personnel could lose millions of dollars.

READ MORE: EXCLUSIVE: Federal government cuts reimbursements for military health care, hospitals on the hook for millions

Shandro says the decision is disrespectful towards the provinces and is hypocritical given Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau’s recent commitments to expand medicare.
More at link.
https://globalnews.ca/news/6012947/alberta-ucp-government-military-health-funding-ottawa/


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## 211RadOp (10 Oct 2019)

Furniture said:
			
		

> I'm sure the next step will be all CAF members will have to pay provincial health fees, which is yet another pay cut described in a different way.


We already do in Ontario.  It is factored into the Provincial taxes.


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## Eye In The Sky (10 Oct 2019)

Quirky said:
			
		

> This can quickly turn into a mess when pilots/aircrew are grounded for extended periods of time due to appointment scheduling.



Pilots are 'aircrew'...so we can include them using that term.     (ref CFA0 55-10. aircrew includes pilots, ACSO, SAR Tech, FE and AES Op).  Having said that, I should have said aircrew/flight crew...wouldn't want the Loadies etc to feel left out.   ;D

What is the mess...not tracking what you mean


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## The Bread Guy (10 Oct 2019)

JesseWZ said:
			
		

> I got to say, I’m a bit bewildered this situation passed the Globe and Mail test in somebodies office - and during an election year no less.


It appears the CAF is just realizing that ...


> After a Global News exclusive report, the Canadian Armed Forces now admits it shouldn’t have made cuts to health care funding for its members without proper consultation. Mercedes Stephenson explains what changes are being proposed ...


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## ModlrMike (10 Oct 2019)

In defence though, members pay income tax to the province in which they reside, that is then partially spent on healthcare. A service they're not eligible to access. Then the CF has to pay non-insured rates on top. To my eye, not only do the provinces want to eat their cake and have it, they want extra icing.

Notwithstanding the bad optics on DND's part, there's more going on here.


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## BeyondTheNow (10 Oct 2019)

Quirky said:
			
		

> Good. We should not be getting  special treatment and jumping the line at hospitals for specialists appointments and MIRs. If we use provincial services we need to wait like everyone else. How this impacts operations with more people not deployable and on tcats are problems for commanders to figure out.



I’m sure you would’ve felt just as strongly had you been one of the ones who sustained a serious injury during training while at CFLRS, Meaford, Wainwright, etc and had to wait for several more months on one of their superb PAT platoons awaiting proper diagnosis before proper treatment and rehab could even begin taking place. All-the-while your injury is steadily becoming worse due to incomplete and/or improper diagnoses in the first place, because more extensive testing such as bone-scans and MRIs can’t be completed on-site, right? (On that note, I’m very curious how training environments specifically will be affected by this.)

Canada/some provinces (I’d have to check if all are, but I don’t think so) have a two-tiered health-system. Civilians who can afford it pay extra to access certain services faster, outside of OHIP, thus ‘skipping the line.’ Should they be able to? 

I 100% support military members having access to expedited medical/health services...on whose dime and the process by which it’s feasible remains debatable...but we’re at least worth that, are we not? 

I agree with a viewpoint posted elsewhere in this thread that there are those who are in positions where tests aren’t as time sensitive, but there are absolutely circumstances where a member can’t be sitting around for weeks to months waiting for a test—that serves the interests of no one.


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## OldSolduer (10 Oct 2019)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> In defence though, members pay income tax to the province in which they reside, that is then partially spent on healthcare. A service they're not eligible to access. Then the CF has to pay non-insured rates on top. To my eye, not only do the provinces want to eat their cake and have it, they want extra icing.
> 
> Notwithstanding the bad optics on DND's part, there's more going on here.



And charging three times the standard rate.


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## daftandbarmy (10 Oct 2019)

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> Canada/some provinces (I’d have to check if all are, but I don’t think so) have a two-tiered health-system. Civilians who can afford it pay extra to access certain services faster, outside of OHIP, thus ‘skipping the line.’ Should they be able to?



The smart ones go to the US, or other destinations, as medical tourists. This is an increasing trend, with provinces sending patients abroad on a regular basis. 

See p. 4:

"Provincial governments across Canada send patients abroad for care, diagnosis and treatment that cannot be provided in a timely manner closer to home. An example is bariatric surgery, where the average wait for bariatric surgery in Canada is estimated at over 5 years":

https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/Deloitte/ca/Documents/life-sciences-health-care/ca-en-health-care-life-sciences-evolving-medical-tourism-exploring-a-new-frontier.pdf

Maybe we should help out by taking pressure of the current health care system. Because CAF members are always 'on the move' anyways, we could pull all of the CAF members and families out of the Canadian system, then sign a contract with the US & Mexico as part of the 'New NAFTA'


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## Jarnhamar (10 Oct 2019)

[quote author=BeyondTheNow]

I 100% support military members having access to expedited medical/health services...on whose dime and the process by which it’s feasible remains debatable...but we’re at least worth that, are we not? 

[/quote]

We should have access to expedited medical care. Not because we're better than anyone else but because of what the government asks of us and expects us to do.


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## BeyondTheNow (10 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> We should have access to expedited medical care. Not because we're better than anyone else but because of what the government asks of us and expects us to do.



Exactly. You worded that much better than I did, but that’s what I intended.

We’re “worth” it because of the position we’ve put ourselves in. And outsiders need to grasp that members don’t only become injured (or worse) during war/combat.


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## Quirky (10 Oct 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Pilots are 'aircrew'...so we can include them using that term.     (ref CFA0 55-10. aircrew includes pilots, ACSO, SAR Tech, FE and AES Op).  Having said that, I should have said aircrew/flight crew...wouldn't want the Loadies etc to feel left out.   ;D
> 
> What is the mess...not tracking what you mean



Short on aircrew (not just pilots) manning for critical on-going domestic ops such as SAR and NORAD commitments due to lengthy medical delays getting treatment. Only so much can be done at the local MIR, but now there won’t be any special treatment getting appointments on civie street.



			
				BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> I 100% support military members having access to expedited medical/health services...



Depending on the situation and position. Priority, within the CF, should be given to deployable units or those in constant domestic ops where dag’in green is a necessity. I know medical personnel who work in the ER, people who actually save lives on a daily basis, that have to wait months for appointments with specialists. Meanwhile, CF members get to skip the line, or used to now, and only wait weeks. Do they deserve to? Absolutely not, they are not above any other tax paying civilian. Want better service for CF members, spend the money and better equip MIRs with staff and equipment.


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## Eye In The Sky (10 Oct 2019)

Quirky said:
			
		

> Short on aircrew (not just pilots) manning for critical on-going domestic ops such as SAR and NORAD commitments due to lengthy medical delays getting treatment. Only so much can be done at the local MIR, but now there won’t be any special treatment getting appointments on civie street.



Copy...I think we're thinking the same thing here.  As I said, someone has to assume/accept the risk for that.  Not just DomOps; the Trans folks are always on the go, supporting various overseas stuff...and some fleets (thinking of my last one...and current one, too, actually) don't have much 'depth' when it comes to trained folks who can go away with serviceable aircraft.



> Depending on the situation and position. Priority, within the CF, should be given to deployable units or those in constant domestic ops where dag’in green is a necessity. I know medical personnel who work in the ER, people who actually save lives on a daily basis, that have to wait months for appointments with specialists. Meanwhile, CF members get to skip the line, or used to now, and only wait weeks. Do they deserve to? Absolutely not, they are not above any other tax paying civilian. Want better service for CF members, spend the money and better equip MIRs with staff and equipment.



It's not that we are 'above', but the detriment to not having fit CAF members isn't the same as not having fit people manning the Produce department at Sobey's... :2c:.  Do I agree with the CAF not paying more if they want/need expedited services?  Nope, I do not agree with that either.


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## mariomike (10 Oct 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> It's not that we are 'above', but the detriment to not having fit CAF members isn't the same as not having fit people manning the Produce department at Sobey's... :2c:.



Unless it was life or limb threatening, I wouldn't have minded a little break from Operations, if they wanted to send someone else to the front of the line.


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## Eye In The Sky (10 Oct 2019)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Unless it was life or limb threatening, I wouldn't have minded a little break from Operations, if they wanted to send someone else to the front of the line.



I felt that way a few times at my previous Sqn as well.

For those trades that are small in size but routinely operational/deployed, this very issue (people needing a break from op tempo) will compound itself if the little depth they have is eroded with people on MELs/TCats for extended (avoidable) timelines.

Sometimes, saving a dollar here and a penny there isn't worth the 'other' costs...


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