# New MND - Anita Anand



## AKa (26 Oct 2021)

Looks like we're getting a new MND. 



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cabinet-announcement-trudeau-1.6225121
		


She wasn't on my radar at all, but first glances are positive.  She seems to be well-educated and credible.  On va voir...

AK


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## FSTO (26 Oct 2021)

While the Defence Minister seems to have some good bones, our new Foreign Minister who should be leading the charge of getting a policy that DND will be able to support, is pretty much vacuous political hack. 
We're in for more years of aimlessness.


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## MilEME09 (26 Oct 2021)

Coming from public works, maybe she will help get procurement on track


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## calculus (26 Oct 2021)

FSTO said:


> While the Defence Minister seems to have some good bones, our new Foreign Minister who should be leading the charge of getting a policy that DND will be able to support, is pretty much vacuous political hack.
> We're in for more years of aimlessness.


Couldn't agree more. Shocking pick.


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## Journeyman (26 Oct 2021)

FSTO said:


> ....our new Foreign Minister who should be leading the charge of getting a policy that DND will be able to support, is pretty much vacuous political hack.
> We're in for more years of aimlessness.


Given PMJT's track record of having to fire competent women who actually call him out, he apparently prefers vacuous political hacks.

I still think it speaks volumes that Gerald Butts walked away from Trudeau and the Liberal leadership.


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## Halifax Tar (26 Oct 2021)

Journeyman said:


> Given PMJT's track record of having to fire competent women who actually call him out, he apparently prefers vacuous political hacks.
> 
> I still think it speaks volumes that Gerald Butts walked away from Trudeau and the Liberal leadership.



He did ?


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## Journeyman (26 Oct 2021)

Yep, he bailed in 2019, with rumours linking him to ousting former justice minister Jody Wilson-Raybould.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/gerald-butts-resigns-pmo-1.5023675


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## QV (26 Oct 2021)

Journeyman said:


> Yep, he bailed in 2019, with rumours linking him to ousting former justice minister Jody Wilson-Raybould.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/gerald-butts-resigns-pmo-1.5023675


Wasn't he sacrificed to save the boss? 

I don't think he walked away because he wanted to...


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## Halifax Tar (26 Oct 2021)

Yeeeeaaaahhhhhh... His walk away or departure was a symbolic only gesture.  

If you think he still doesn't have the ear of his long time friend I think you are mistaken.


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## Journeyman (26 Oct 2021)

Agreed, but symbolic gestures have meaning as well.  I can't imagine Butts recommending the election rodeo.


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## Halifax Tar (26 Oct 2021)

Journeyman said:


> Agreed, but symbolic gestures have meaning as well.  I can't imagine Butts recommending the election rodeo.



I can.


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## Kilted (26 Oct 2021)

I suppose the positive thing is that she doesn't have military service to lie about.


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## Weinie (26 Oct 2021)

Kilted said:


> I suppose the positive thing is that she doesn't have military service to lie about.


But, she can be the architect of the way forward.


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## OldSolduer (26 Oct 2021)

I’m listening to her words and honestly she does sound good. But the proof of the pudding…


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## MilEME09 (26 Oct 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> I’m listening to her words and honestly she does sound good. But the proof of the pudding…


Agreed, for all we know at the moment she could become the best MND in a generation. Let us see what her actions prove.


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## GR66 (26 Oct 2021)

MilEME09 said:


> Agreed, for all we know at the moment she could become the best MND in a generation. Let us see what her actions prove.


Can't we set the bar a little higher than that?


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## calculus (26 Oct 2021)

calculus said:


> Couldn't agree more. Shocking pick.


Just watching Power Play, and Chrystia Freeland pretty much admitted (in so many weasel words about balancing the cabinet for gender and diversity) that Marc Garneau lost his job as Foreign Affairs Minister because he was a white male. So this is what it has come down to now. Competency and merit are now officially dead.


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## Good2Golf (26 Oct 2021)

You orbit the earth a thousand times…


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## daftandbarmy (26 Oct 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> You orbit the earth a thousand times…



And this happens 

Report into Julie Payette's conduct at Rideau Hall finds toxic environment, public humiliations​


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/julie-payette-workplace-report-1.5890757


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## HiTechComms (26 Oct 2021)

calculus said:


> Just watching Power Play, and Chrystia Freeland pretty much admitted (in so many weasel words about balancing the cabinet for gender and diversity) that Marc Garneau lost his job as Foreign Affairs Minister because he was a white male. So this is what it has come down to now. Competency and merit are now officially dead.


Competency and merit.. and Politicians? I think there is some kind of #DIV/0! error if you mentioned those words in the same sentence.


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## daftandbarmy (26 Oct 2021)

HiTechComms said:


> Competency and merit.. and Politicians? I think there is some kind of #DIV/0! error if you mentioned those words in the same sentence.



"We have the best government that money can buy."  Mark Twain


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## dapaterson (26 Oct 2021)

Anita Anand is a lawyer, born in Nova Scotia, so she's sort of like Peter Mackay, except she got into cabinet on merit, not because of who her dad was.


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## daftandbarmy (26 Oct 2021)

Will her approach to reforming the CAF be fast, cheap, good.... you can only pick two.

I'm going with 'Fast and Cheap', with probably alot of gore and splatters and collateral damage just in time for Halloween.

Did I mention yet how glad I am that I'm retired now 


With his cabinet picks, Trudeau signals he's a PM in a hurry​New governments can offer symbolism and hope. Trudeau’s legacy needs accomplishments.​
Justin Trudeau described his new cabinet Tuesday as "a team of familiar faces and new faces that are ready to put all their strengths, all their hard work toward delivering for Canadians in the coming years."

"Delivering" may be the key word here.

According to a senior Liberal source, the speed and urgency with which the government was able to operate while responding to the pandemic crisis led the prime minister to wonder whether the government could move faster and more ambitiously to deal with challenges like climate change and the housing shortage.

Even as COVID-19 slowly recedes, there's no shortage of issues that can or should be viewed as crises — not only climate change and housing but things like reconciliation, economic growth and failures of leadership within the Canadian Forces.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-cabinet-2021-1.6226051


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## Navy_Pete (26 Oct 2021)

MilEME09 said:


> Coming from public works, maybe she will help get procurement on track


I don't know, her background is in corporate governance. Arguably corporate governance structures is a big issue slowing down procurements right now (see DPS). All the large procurement processes feed into the TBS magic box, which is it's own growing mandarin empire.

Unless we smash a few departments together and someone beats on FIN and some other departments to stop them from their constant guerilla attacks on large procurements and stops TBS from meddling, not really hopeful. Short of a benevolent dictator burning our existing system to the ground I don't see fundamental changes.

If she can push to sort out the loophole that lets the CDS skip out on NDA charges and implement the litany of old recommendations that would be big though, so optimistic she will generally be good.


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## Happy Guy (26 Oct 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Will her approach to reforming the CAF be fast, cheap, good.... you can only pick two.
> 
> I'm going with 'Fast and Cheap', with probably alot of gore and splatters and collateral damage just in time for Halloween.
> 
> ...



Why am I filled with dread?  It is not because of the new MND but because of the potentially unrealistic marching orders The Prime Minister will give to her.  I sincerely hope that she'd take the necessary time to analyze the problem (hopefully the she and her staff identifies the root problem correctly), and then act decisively.  The problem is that if she is highly intelligent, competent and is able to act in a rational manner she will be a target for firing by the Prime Minister.


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## Good2Golf (26 Oct 2021)

Navy_Pete said:


> I don't know, her background is in corporate governance. Arguably corporate governance structures is a big issue slowing down procurements right now (see DPS). All the large procurement processes feed into the TBS magic box, which is it's own growing mandarin empire.


1.  TBS is simply the PM/PMO’s unspoken triad of accelerator, brake pedal and steering wheel. PM/PMO is sitting in the driver’s seat, have no doubt.



Navy_Pete said:


> Unless we smash a few departments together and someone beats on FIN and some other departments to stop them from their constant guerilla attacks on large procurements and stops TBS from meddling, not really hopeful. Short of a benevolent dictator burning our existing system to the ground I don't see fundamental changes.



2. You assume the system isn’t operating the way the PM (any PM arguably) wants it to operate.  See 1.



Navy_Pete said:


> If she can push to sort out the loophole that lets the CDS skip out on NDA charges and implement the litany of old recommendations that would be big though, so optimistic she will generally be good.



3. Agree fully…AND clear up the statutory/operational confusion/cross-over that has evolved/degenerated between DND and CAF for the last several years.

_On verra…_


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## MilEME09 (26 Oct 2021)

New Defence Minister Anita Anand will quickly need to name top soldier to deal with sexual misconduct crisis: experts
					

Anand is only the second woman in Canadian history to hold the position of Defence Minister




					nationalpost.com
				




National post holding nothing back


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## dapaterson (26 Oct 2021)

The CAF's revolving door of PMs/PDs on projects, in a job long enough "to get experience" but not enough to see things through to completion, also contributes to the problems of the capital program.

Couple that with the tired old phrase "an aggressive schedule" which inevitably slips, requiring PMPRs be retained even longer, meaning they are not available for further work, which was costed at a certain point in time and then slips, getting hit hard by inflation, and voila.


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## MilEME09 (26 Oct 2021)

dapaterson said:


> The CAF's revolving door of PMs/PDs on projects, in a job long enough "to get experience" but not enough to see things through to completion, also contributes to the problems of the capital program.
> 
> Couple that with the tired old phrase "an aggressive schedule" which inevitably slips, requiring PMPRs be retained even longer, meaning they are not available for further work, which was costed at a certain point in time and then slips, getting hit hard by inflation, and voila.


If I was PM I'd tap someone on the Senate defense committee for MND, cause they know they issues very deeply


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## Altair (26 Oct 2021)

calculus said:


> Just watching Power Play, and Chrystia Freeland pretty much admitted (in so many weasel words about balancing the cabinet for gender and diversity) that Marc Garneau lost his job as Foreign Affairs Minister because he was a white male. So this is what it has come down to now. Competency and merit are now officially dead.


Lol...

I wonder if Canadians are aware that cabinet ministers don't even need to be MPs or senators. 

If competency or merit actually mattered for anything Canadian PMs would have been choosing from the 30 million adult Canadians to fill cabinet, not the 100-200 members of parliament of the winning party.


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## Jarnhamar (26 Oct 2021)

Happy Guy said:


> but because of the potentially unrealistic marching orders The Prime Minister will give to her.


If she fails do you think Trudeau will blame her?

Or blame the Conservative-heavy, struggling to be diverse, hierarchy-obsessed, right-wing infiltrated military who has refused to increase the 15% female membership despite being ordered to do so, and a history of misconduct towards women from privates to the CDS.

She is in a pretty comfortable position.


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## OldSolduer (26 Oct 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> If she fails do you think Trudeau will blame her?
> 
> Or blame the Conservative-heavy, struggling to be diverse, hierarchy-obsessed, right-wing infiltrated military who has refused to increase the 15% female membership despite being ordered to do so, and a history of misconduct towards women from privates to the CDS.
> 
> She is in a pretty comfortable position.


Harper Harper Harper


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## Kilted (26 Oct 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> If she fails do you think Trudeau will blame her?
> 
> Or blame the Conservative-heavy, struggling to be diverse, hierarchy-obsessed, right-wing infiltrated military who has refused to increase the 15% female membership despite being ordered to do so, and a history of misconduct towards women from privates to the CDS.


It's not an issue about refusing to recruit females, its the issue of not enough females who actually want to serve in the military.  Last time I check we were hurting for people and basically taking everyone with a heartbeat.  The only way to truly increase the female percentage of the forces would be to stop recruiting males and let attrition take its toll until you get the percentage that you are looking for.

With all of the historic (and some current) complaints coming to light, it will be some time before larger numbers of women will want to join, and if we ever have that witchhunt that some people have been talking about, it will take even longer.

NDA limitations aside, you can't blame the Op Honour issues on either side of the political spectrum, they are part of the larger Canadian society.  And if you ever listen to the average Canadian teenager talk for any period of time, it's pretty obvious that society isn't going to change anytime soon, especially since the school boards basically let the kids do whatever they want, almost without concequeshes (at least in Ontario).


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## AirDet (26 Oct 2021)

MilEME09 said:


> Coming from public works, maybe she will help get procurement on track


We can only pray.  The only thing is her focus right now is to fix the mess Vance and the others made. Hopefully she'll have enough time left in the minority gov't to fix procurement.


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## Happy Guy (26 Oct 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> If she fails do you think Trudeau will blame her?
> 
> Or blame the Conservative-heavy, struggling to be diverse, hierarchy-obsessed, right-wing infiltrated military who has refused to increase the 15% female membership despite being ordered to do so, and a history of misconduct towards women from privates to the CDS.
> 
> She is in a pretty comfortable position.


Not sure if you're trying to bait me with the second paragraph - diverse, hierarchy-obsessed, right-wing infiltrated military.

Concur that it appears that many of the senior Leadership positions are conservative thinking.
Diversity has been an issue for over 15 years and despite efforts (study groups, community out reach and so forth) the CAF is still relatively not as diverse as Cdn society, but I believe that you know the reasons for that as well as I do.
Not sure how much the right-wing has infiltrated the military.
Inability to increase to at least 15% female will need to be addressed if the CAF is to survive in the future.
History of misconduct - Concur.

From the little that I know of the new MND, she appears to have a good head on her shoulders.  She will need to surround herself with knowledgeable and competent staff who can provide unbiased advice to her. She will need to be open minded and learn about the DND/CAF.  In fact she probably has had a good working relationship with MGen Fortin (sexual misconduct/harassment allegations notwithstanding) and BGen Brodie so she knows what the military can do.  She has already made some remarks in that she understands that reforming CAF will take time and it will not be easy.

A minority government might last two years and hopefully before the gov't falls she will be able to set in place some lasting reforms.  My problem is whatever the Prime Minister truly understands that culture change takes a committed and sustained effort over time - years not months.

The good thing is that she is a Lawyer and she understands the necessary steps to change the NDA so the CDS can be charged.  Given that all political parties agree that sexual misconduct and sexual harassment is a serious problem I am hopefully that the NDA can be amended with their cooperation.

Cheers


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## dapaterson (26 Oct 2021)

Kilted said:


> It's not an issue about refusing to recruit females, its the issue of not enough females who actually want to serve in the military.  Last time I check we were hurting for people and basically taking everyone with a heartbeat.  The only way to truly increase the female percentage of the forces would be to stop recruiting males and let attrition take its toll until you get the percentage that you are looking for.


Don't let facts (ie the labour market availability studies that arrived at that 25%) insert itself into your defensiveness.


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## Jarnhamar (26 Oct 2021)

Kilted said:


> It's not an issue about refusing to recruit females, *its the issue of not enough females who actually want to serve in the military.*


What ever the true reason is I don't think many people will see very far past a headline talking about how we failed to raise our number above 15% for 10 years or 20 years.



Happy Guy said:


> Not sure if you're trying to bait me with the second paragraph - diverse, hierarchy-obsessed, right-wing infiltrated military.


No sir. That was just me guessing at accusations I can see easily leveled at us (CAF) if someone needs to be blamed. I just didn't articulate it very clearly.



Will Anita Anand be a good MND? I think what constitutes as a good MND varies depending on who's asking. Probably a big difference between what the LPC (PMO?) thinks is good and what us CAF members think qualifies as good.  The last MND was a mouse and just did what he was told, I'm pretty sure Trudeau loves that type of obedience and probably thinks he did great.

I'm not sure why some CAF members still seem to think the MND is somehow our champion or on our side.


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## Dale Denton (27 Oct 2021)

Happy Guy said:


> Not sure if you're trying to bait me with the second paragraph - diverse, hierarchy-obsessed, right-wing infiltrated military.



I understood it as the everyday citizens' understanding of the military. They only know what they see in the news, and that's probably what would come to mind if a family member wanted to join. Everyday people often don't see the minutiae, facts, science, context, etc... beyond the headlines and quick news clips. 

As we are at every cabinet announcement, hopeful they are ambitious enough to listen to the experts and leverage their expertise in a dept most currently known for its never-ending issues. I'm also aware of how excited people were for the last guy to really shake things up for the better since he was an insider...


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## daftandbarmy (27 Oct 2021)

dapaterson said:


> Don't let facts (ie the labour market availability studies that arrived at that 25%) insert itself into your defensiveness.



And then there's the BIPOC thing.

We still look more like an episode of 'Combat' than an episode of 'Star Trek'.


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## Brad Sallows (27 Oct 2021)

> Conservative-heavy, struggling to be diverse, hierarchy-obsessed, right-wing infiltrated military



In contrast to the progressive-heavy, diverse, hierarchy-obsessed, left-wing infiltrated academic institutions.

When the progressive/conservative imbalance is raised, a common (and correct) response is that people who gravitate to academic positions tend to be progressive.

So, about that military...

PS: if group "X" is over-represented somewhere, it will have to be under-represented elsewhere.  Still waiting for the federal government to set caps to prevent over-representation and drive target constituencies to where they are under-represented.  Assign everyone to their silos (eg. "white cisheterosexual traditional male") and tell them which occupations/professions are "open" to people in their silo.

PPS: if a target of X% representation of group "A" is set for the CAF, how is the number "X" derived?  Surely no-one would pull such a number out of his ass.


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## FJAG (27 Oct 2021)

MilEME09 said:


> New Defence Minister Anita Anand will quickly need to name top soldier to deal with sexual misconduct crisis: experts
> 
> 
> Anand is only the second woman in Canadian history to hold the position of Defence Minister
> ...


If people knew how soundly I'll sleep tonight knowing that Drapeau "was “overjoyed” that a woman was selected as defence minister.".

I'll certainly give her a lot of leeway considering the mess she'll have inherited from her predecessor for whom I also had a lot of high hopes when he first came on board. There must be hundreds of dusty files in that office and when you strip away the brouhaha that the press generates, there are a many, many complex issues that have been ignored by DND and the CAF for far too long.



dapaterson said:


> The CAF's revolving door of PMs/PDs on projects, in a job long enough "to get experience" but not enough to see things through to completion, also contributes to the problems of the capital program.



Considering the length of these projects being assigned as a PD is more like a life sentence than a tour of duty. 😉 But I take your point.

🍻


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## Kilted (27 Oct 2021)

dapaterson said:


> Don't let facts (ie the labour market availability studies that arrived at that 25%) insert itself into your defensiveness.


Nothing to be defensive about. If Mohammed won't go to the mountain, you can't always bring the mountain to him. There aren't enough women in Canada who are fit for service who actually want to serve to meet the 25 percent requirement.


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## daftandbarmy (27 Oct 2021)

Kilted said:


> Nothing to be defensive about. If Mohammed won't go to the mountain, you can't always bring the mountain to him. There aren't enough women in Canada who are fit for service who actually want to serve to meet the 25 percent requirement.



In general, we suck at recruiting under represented groups.

The lure of bagging largely white high school kids in low income areas (you know, like 'Copperhead Road') to quickly fill recruiting quotas is too strong. 

How's that Smart Phone app working for us, I wonder?


Canada’s Armed Forces, struggling to hit diversity goals, turns to new digital recruiting tools​
The Canadian Armed Forces are struggling to hit their own targets to get more women, Indigenous people and visible minorities into uniform, new data obtained by Global News shows.





And, in an attempt to to boost numbers that appear to have been largely stalled for more than three years, the Department of National Defence (DND) will launch a suite of new digital tools — including a smartphone app that, in its functionality, will resemble the matchmaking app Tinder — aimed at convincing more Canadians to consider a life in the Armed Forces.

The Canadian Forces believes a more diverse group is also a more effective group.









						Canada’s Armed Forces, struggling to hit diversity goals, turns to new digital recruiting tools - National | Globalnews.ca
					

In an effort to boost the number of women, visible minorities, and Indigenous Canadians in the Armed Forces, DND turns to a range of new programs this fall, Global News has learned.




					globalnews.ca


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## Maxman1 (27 Oct 2021)

Kilted said:


> I suppose the positive thing is that she doesn't have military service to lie about.



At least she won't nominate herself for two Victoria Crosses.

Or design and issue a shovel that doubles as a bulletproof shield, that ends up being both useless as a shovel and not bulletproof.


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## dimsum (27 Oct 2021)

Maxman1 said:


> At least she won't nominate herself for two Victoria Crosses.
> 
> Or design and issue a shovel that doubles as a bulletproof shield, that ends up being both useless as a shovel and not bulletproof.


Hey, she's only been in the job a day.  Give her time.

(Reddit /s)


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## HiTechComms (27 Oct 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> In general, we suck at recruiting under represented groups.
> 
> The lure of bagging largely white high school kids in low income areas (you know, like 'Copperhead Road') to quickly fill recruiting quotas is too strong.
> 
> ...



I want to voice my opinion of that  piece but that would be unprofessional of me as a member of the CAF.


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## Brad Sallows (27 Oct 2021)

> The lure of bagging largely white high school kids in low income areas (you know, like 'Copperhead Road') to quickly fill recruiting quotas is too strong.



Yes, but there are only so many purple jobs in HQs to fill.  Someone has to be willing to do combat arms.


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## daftandbarmy (27 Oct 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> Yes, but there are only so many purple jobs in HQs to fill.  Someone has to be willing to do combat arms.


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## dapaterson (27 Oct 2021)

Combat Arms are not short compared to the more technical / greater education required trades.

Indeed, when all else fails, the recruiters always default to over recruiting infanteers at the expense of tech trades or doctors.


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## daftandbarmy (27 Oct 2021)

dapaterson said:


> Combat Arms are not short compared to the more technical / greater education required trades.
> 
> Indeed, when all else fails, the* recruiters always default to over recruiting infanteers* at the expense of tech trades or doctors.



Because it's easier. And there are no consequences for doing otherwise.


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## dapaterson (27 Oct 2021)

What gets measured gets done.  And if we measure "how many recruits", well...


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## OldSolduer (27 Oct 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Because it's easier. And there are no consequences for doing otherwise.


So I’m going to go out on a limb and say higher tech jobs pay better in the private sector. And honestly not a lot of women want to join either.


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## Altair (27 Oct 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> So I’m going to go out on a limb and say higher tech jobs pay better in the private sector. And honestly not a lot of women want to join either.


Can't say I blame them.


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## HiTechComms (27 Oct 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> So I’m going to go out on a limb and say higher tech jobs pay better in the private sector. And honestly not a lot of women want to join either.


As a personal anecdote. Depending on the field in Operation women made up less then 5% of the workers, development work had about 25%. Having said that most dev work had women work as PM, business analysts, documentation specialists compared most men which were the coders.

Here is the kicker almost 90% of the women I knew that worked in IT are not Canadian born or educated.  This goes along the lines of the more equal the society the more separation and concentration of specific male and female fields. When you have the choice to do something or not do something, people will gravitate to personal choices rather than survival choices.

I've known and still know very good individuals of either sex that are amazing at their job. One of the most dedicated people I knew actually died at her computer doing her job. Tech work is pretty brutal.

My birth country was considered less equal amongst the sexes yet they had and still have a more equal ratios of engineers, doctors, teachers and even nurses. Also if you didn't work you didn't eat, well at least everyone was equal in regards to poverty, except for politicians.

High tech field pays well I know I am taking a massive paycut by joining even at the Officer pay scale. Money is not a motivator for me so I am ok with this.


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## OldSolduer (27 Oct 2021)

Altair said:


> Can't say I blame them.


I’ve been around and even prior to this it was difficult to recruit women and visible minorities


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## Colin Parkinson (27 Oct 2021)

Not exactly the video I was looking for, but Jordan Peterson addresses this point, in Scandinavia which has likley been the place that worked the hardest to get women into STEM, have found that the majority of women when given a equal chance just aren't interested. I certainly hope that any woman joining the forces gets an equal chance to excel at whatever they do and are allowed to equally fail. I have never met a talented , smart woman who works hard that thinks affirmative action has any value, infant most think it's now detrimental.


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## SupersonicMax (27 Oct 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> I’ve been around and even prior to this it was difficult to recruit women and visible minorities


Because the issues are just coming to light publicly doesn’t mean they were not there before or that women were not aware of the issues, turning them off of a military career.


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## OldSolduer (27 Oct 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> Because the issues are just coming to light publicly doesn’t mean they were not there before or that women were not aware of the issues, turning them off of a military career.


Correct. I think even if all the issues were solved it would still be a hard sell.


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## mariomike (27 Oct 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> I’ve been around and even prior to this it was difficult to recruit women and visible minorities


It had a positive effect on me. More so for my sister because she was in the Regular Force, and stayed in for the whole ride.

I believe a young person who learns to embrace military discipline makes a better citizen.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (27 Oct 2021)

I think family culture has a lot to do with it,......lots of folks think 'military' is what you do when you have no other options and are kinda failing at "life".   Two of my three Sisters were in, but the military was celebrated in our upbringing, definitionally not so much in lots of families.


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## daftandbarmy (27 Oct 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> So I’m going to go out on a limb and say higher tech jobs pay better in the private sector. And honestly not a lot of women want to join either.



I've had a few (excellent) females in my rifle companies over the years.

I was somewhat dubious to begin with until that one time where a female Cpl brought her daughter in to parade night in the kid's car seat (no sitter available) and took her around all the stations in our Airborne Platoon PT test and knocked it out of the park e.g., doing situps with the baby seat at her feet going 'Boo!' to her daughter each time she crunched up.

I asked them why there weren't more women in the Infantry.

Their answer: no one invites women to join. All the advertising is fully 'Male WASP' targeted.

The women who figure it out say to themselves 'Hell, I can do that too, maybe even better', and most of them do just that.


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## OldSolduer (28 Oct 2021)

One of my female coworkers told me she was considering joining the CAF but her family pressured her not to. In their country of origin the military is not thought of fondly.


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## Brad Sallows (28 Oct 2021)

> the more technical / greater education required trades



Yes, people have choices.  I can guess that this is usually what's at the root of things that so many people are determined to chalk up to various other causes.


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## Kilted (28 Oct 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> One of my female coworkers told me she was considering joining the CAF but her family pressured her not to. In their country of origin the military is not thought of fondly.



Realistically that is going to be a common issue with many cultures until they have been here for a couple generations.[/url]


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## Kilted (28 Oct 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> I've had a few (excellent) females in my rifle companies over the years.
> 
> I was somewhat dubious to begin with until that one time where a female Cpl brought her daughter in to parade night in the kid's car seat (no sitter available) and took her around all the stations in our Airborne Platoon PT test and knocked it out of the park e.g., doing situps with the baby seat at her feet going 'Boo!' to her daughter each time she crunched up.


There was a guy at my unit who use to bring his kids for whatever reason. He was told that he wasn't allowed to.


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## Halifax Tar (28 Oct 2021)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> I think family culture has a lot to do with it,......lots of folks think 'military' is what you do when you have no other options and are kinda failing at "life".   Two of my three Sisters were in, but the military was celebrated in our upbringing, definitionally not so much in lots of families.



This 100%. 

My parents were very disappointed in my joining th CAF.  My actually asked why I was throwing my life away to become a drunken wife beater.  

The irony was not lost on me as it was coming from a rank and file prison guard at the time.  No offense intended.


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## Journeyman (28 Oct 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> One of my female coworkers told me she was considering joining the CAF but her family pressured her not to. In their country of origin the military is not thought of fondly.


Born in Canada?


Halifax Tar said:


> My parents were very disappointed in my joining th CAF.


I quit high school.  My dad said 'get in the car' and took me to the Seafarers Union Hall. They were closed. He dropped me off at the CAF Recruiters, said "make your own way home," and drove off.

Best decision I never made.


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## Good2Golf (28 Oct 2021)

Journeyman said:


> I quit high school.  My dad said 'get in the car' and took me to the Seafarers Union Hall. They were closed. He dropped me off at the CAF Recruiters, said "make your own way home," and drove off.



What?!? He took you to only two places? 😉


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## lenaitch (28 Oct 2021)

Kilted said:


> Realistically that is going to be a common issue with many cultures until they have been here for a couple generations.[/url]


Similar with law enforcement, where cops in the parents' country of origin aren't held in high regard.

The son of one of my former colleagues joined the Reserves while in college (I don't know which Res., it confuses me).  At an 'old farts breakfast' one day he told the story of the son coming home for the weekend, in uniform, and his mother said 'go change first - I can't hug you wearing that'.  The table went rather silent until the conversation moved on.

Harsh.


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## mariomike (28 Oct 2021)

Kilted said:


> Realistically that is going to be a common issue with many cultures until they have been here for a couple generations.[/url]


That is a shame. Because I believe young people will have a greater sense of the value of Canadian citizenship if they are trained to defend it.


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## daftandbarmy (28 Oct 2021)

mariomike said:


> That is a shame. Because I believe young people will have a greater sense of the value of Canadian citizenship if they are trained to defend it.



I disagree.

Anyone can be trained to be a soldier. 

They don't have to care about anything except pleasing their section commander and not looking like a c*nt in front of their peers.

In fact, the 'overly patriotic' ones should be regarded with a deep suspicion bordering on paranoia. Luckily, if we need someone to move first because 'sniper' there will be someone who comes to mind pretty quickly


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## mariomike (28 Oct 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> I disagree.
> 
> Anyone can be trained to be a soldier.
> 
> ...


Guess I should have included, during peacetime - when more time is available - training could include more attention to citizenship and civic education than could be possible during hurried wartime training.

Maybe that education would give them a better appreciation of the significance of democracy in general, and Canadian democracy in particular.

Maybe be of value in teaching young people a sense of civic responsiblity.

Tell them exactly what it is they are defending.

Or, maybe not.  🤷‍♂️


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## QV (28 Oct 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> Yes, people have choices.  I can guess that this is usually what's at the root of things that so many people are determined to chalk up to various other causes.


Evolutionary psychology tends to agree with you.


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## HiTechComms (28 Oct 2021)

WIN/Gallup International’s Global Survey Shows Three in Five Willing to Fight for Their Country
					

A global survey from WIN/Gallup International, the world’s leading association in market research and polling shows that 61% of those polled across 64 countries would be willing to fight for their country, while 27% would not. However, there are significant differences by region. Willingness to...




					www.gallup-international.bg
				




I think this Poll speaks a lot. 

Is the west demoralized?


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## mariomike (28 Oct 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> In fact, the 'overly patriotic' ones should be regarded with a deep suspicion bordering on paranoia.



I'm not sugesting transforming women and minorities into CAF sniper fanatics.

I was thinking maybe a little less of this:



OldSolduer said:


> One of my female coworkers told me she was considering joining the CAF but her family pressured her not to. In their country of origin the military is not thought of fondly.


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## daftandbarmy (28 Oct 2021)

mariomike said:


> I'm not sugesting transforming women and minorities into *CAF sniper fanatics.*



But that's one of my favourite things. 

And it's a great motivator for teenagers of all shapes, sizes, colours and socio-economic levels, let me tell you!


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## mariomike (28 Oct 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> But that's one of my favourite things.


I was in a service battalion. Somebody had to sling hash and drive trucks.


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## Good2Golf (28 Oct 2021)

mariomike said:


> I was in a service battalion. Somebody had to sling hash and drive trucks.


But cannabis wasn’t legal until recently…did the SvcBn support the guns, by any chance?


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## Quirky (28 Oct 2021)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> ......lots of folks think 'military' is what you do when you have no other options and are kinda failing at "life".



I get this a lot until I tell them I can 'retire' in my mid-40's with a pension that's greater than their current salary.


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## dimsum (28 Oct 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> But cannabis wasn’t legal until recently…did the SvcBn support the guns, by any chance?


Only with brownies.


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## The Bread Guy (28 Oct 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> What?!? He took you to only two places? 😉


Too old for the orphanage or workhouse, likely ...


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## The Bread Guy (28 Oct 2021)

dimsum said:


> Only with brownies.


... or cupcakes ...


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## Halifax Tar (28 Oct 2021)

HiTechComms said:


> WIN/Gallup International’s Global Survey Shows Three in Five Willing to Fight for Their Country
> 
> 
> A global survey from WIN/Gallup International, the world’s leading association in market research and polling shows that 61% of those polled across 64 countries would be willing to fight for their country, while 27% would not. However, there are significant differences by region. Willingness to...
> ...



No, the West is pampered. 

Hard times make strong men
Strong men make soft times 
Soft times make soft men 
Soft men make hard times 

We're in the latter half of that butchered quote


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## mariomike (28 Oct 2021)

HiTechComms said:


> Is the west demoralized?


I don't know if it is just the West. Atomic bombs demoralized a lot of people in the East.


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## Remius (28 Oct 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> No, the West is pampered.
> 
> Hard times make strong men
> Strong men make soft times
> ...


I think boils down to people being more informed and likely not willing to throw away their lives for things they don’t believe in.   Note that muslim countries are more likely to want to fight fir their countries.  Probably because they’ve faced more existential crises but also they fight based on faith rather than anything else.  People is the west are less likely to want to fight based on religious grounds.  Fanaticism has a way of motivating people.  And many western countries don’t really face existential conflicts like they used to. 

The First World War was a waste of time and lives.  At the time is was “King and Country” but really was the last remnants of European Stratego being played out again using better tech and plenty of young lives.  Looking back, how many would fight for that cause now?


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## MilEME09 (28 Oct 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> No, the West is pampered.
> 
> Hard times make strong men
> Strong men make soft times
> ...


Which exactly how western society was leading unto WWII, given current Geopolitical situations across the globe, the drums of war are beating softly for now


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## HiTechComms (28 Oct 2021)

MilEME09 said:


> Which exactly how western society was leading unto WWII, given current Geopolitical situations across the globe, the drums of war are beating softly for now


I read a book which went into a great detail why Hitler attacked France. France post WW1 went pacifist ideology in the political and education institutions.  He just gambled that France were most likely not put a whole amount of resistance.


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## KevinB (28 Oct 2021)

Remius said:


> I think boils down to people being more informed and likely not willing to throw away their lives for things they don’t believe in.   Note that muslim countries are more likely to want to fight fir their countries.  Probably because they’ve faced more existential crises but also they fight based on faith rather than anything else.  People is the west are less likely to want to fight based on religious grounds.  Fanaticism has a way of motivating people.  And many western countries don’t really face existential conflicts like they used to.
> 
> The First World War was a waste of time and lives.  At the time is was “King and Country” but really was the last remnants of European Stratego being played out again using better tech and plenty of young lives.  Looking back, how many would fight for that cause now?


Probably the same amount.
   No one joins the Army expecting to die - and frankly what passes for "informed" these days is pretty questionable.


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## Remius (28 Oct 2021)

KevinB said:


> Probably the same amount.
> No one joins the Army expecting to die - and frankly what passes for "informed" these days is pretty questionable.


If some arch duke got assassinated and a bunch of small kingdoms decided to fight dragging in their allies over old conflicts I doubt that 10% of our population would mobilize for war fighting like they did in WW1.  It would be a different situation if our country was directly attacked.  But outside of that I doubt we would see those sorts of numbers for other people’s fights.

Informed may not be the right term but we have the most “educated”population (western as a whole) in the history of the world. And most won’t fall for king and country crap again or whatever political cause of the day is. There will always be a small portion that will adopt the profession of arms as their calling but getting our population to fight for their country would require an existential crisis.


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## Altair (28 Oct 2021)

Remius said:


> If some arch duke got assassinated and a bunch of small kingdoms decided to fight dragging in their allies over old conflicts I doubt that 10% of our population would mobilize for war fighting like they did in WW1.  It would be a different situation if our country was directly attacked.  But outside of that I doubt we would see those sorts of numbers for other people’s fights.
> 
> Informed may not be the right term but we have the most “educated”population (western as a whole) in the history of the world. And most won’t fall for king and country crap again or whatever political cause of the day is. There will always be a small portion that will adopt the profession of arms as their calling but getting our population to fight for their country would require an existential crisis.


Reflect on this post if things go sideways over taiwan. 

It may not be king and country but its definitely big powers dick swinging contest.


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## Remius (28 Oct 2021)

Altair said:


> Reflect on this post if things go sideways over taiwan.
> 
> It may not be king and country but its definitely big powers dick swinging contest.


If we ever mobilize 3 million Canadians for that I’ll stand corrected.  Russia invaded the Crimea and although there has been some mobilization, people aren’t knocking down the doors of CFRCs for that in great numbers.


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## Altair (28 Oct 2021)

Remius said:


> If we ever mobilize 3 million Canadians for that I’ll stand corrected.  Russia invaded the Crimea and although there has been some mobilization, people aren’t knocking down the doors of CFRCs for that in great numbers.


Nobody was going to fight WW3 over Crimea, especially since the Ukrainians didn't put up a fight. 

If Taiwan is fighting to the death and the USA joins in, I see two things. 

1) The average "soft" Western American citizen will still sign up 

2) If countries like Canada join the fight, Canadians join up as well.


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## Remius (28 Oct 2021)

Altair said:


> Nobody was going to fight WW3 over Crimea, especially since the Ukrainians didn't put up a fight.
> 
> If Taiwan is fighting to the death and the USA joins in, I see two things.
> 
> ...


Your optimism is noted but I doubt it.


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## daftandbarmy (28 Oct 2021)

HiTechComms said:


> WIN/Gallup International’s Global Survey Shows Three in Five Willing to Fight for Their Country
> 
> 
> A global survey from WIN/Gallup International, the world’s leading association in market research and polling shows that 61% of those polled across 64 countries would be willing to fight for their country, while 27% would not. However, there are significant differences by region. Willingness to...
> ...



Just noting that the countries with conscription have some pretty low scores.


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## Jarnhamar (28 Oct 2021)

Anita Anand please force the CAF to adopt 360o feedback.

You'll thank me.


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## daftandbarmy (28 Oct 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Anita Anand please force the CAF to adopt 360o feedback.
> 
> You'll thank me.


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## OldSolduer (28 Oct 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> This 100%.
> 
> My parents were very disappointed in my joining th CAF.  My actually asked why I was throwing my life away to become a drunken wife beater.
> 
> The irony was not lost on me as it was coming from a rank and file prison guard at the time.  No offense intended.



Yes ironic indeed. I am now a Corrections Officer and came there from the CAF

In other news maybe the NHL and CAF could clean house at the same time.


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## PuckChaser (28 Oct 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Anita Anand please force the CAF to adopt 360o feedback.
> 
> You'll thank me.


90% of the CAF isn't mature enough to handle that, look at all the change unit morale profiles accomplish.


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## daftandbarmy (28 Oct 2021)

mariomike said:


> I was in a service battalion. Somebody had to sling hash and drive trucks.



39 Svc Bn had the top shot in Canada a few times, I think. 

The soldier is the weapon!


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## Jarnhamar (28 Oct 2021)

PuckChaser said:


> 90% of the CAF isn't mature enough to handle that, look at all the change unit morale profiles accomplish.


Quite possible but I would think that also suggests 90% of the CAF isn't mature enough to handle feedback and evaluating subordinates.


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## daftandbarmy (29 Oct 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Quite possible but I would think that also suggests 90% of the CAF isn't mature enough to handle feedback and evaluating subordinates.



The best feedback I received (as an Officer) was from a good CSM/RSM/NCO.... to whom I listened


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## Altair (29 Oct 2021)

Remius said:


> Your optimism is noted but I doubt it.


Let's hope we never need to find out which one of us is right.


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## dimsum (29 Oct 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> The best feedback I received (as an Officer) was from a good CSM/RSM/NCO.... to whom I listened


Did it start with "with all due respect sir..."?


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## Good2Golf (29 Oct 2021)

dimsum said:


> Did it start with "with all due respect sir..."?


Probably, “Sir, it’s this end of the map that points up…”


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## OldSolduer (29 Oct 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> The best feedback I received (as an Officer) was from a good CSM/RSM/NCO.... to whom I listened



As long as you debrief properly - Performance. Fault. Remedy. 

Repeat as necessary. With vigor.


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## The Bread Guy (29 Oct 2021)

dimsum said:


> Did it start with "with all due respect sir..."?


Right after, "could we have a word over _here_, sir?"


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## daftandbarmy (29 Oct 2021)

dimsum said:


> Did it start with "with all due respect sir..."?



The best one that I can recall went something like: 

'Sir, I'll be back in a bit. I'm off to get a dog to go with this pony.'


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## Blackadder1916 (29 Oct 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> The best one that I can recall went something like:
> 
> 'Sir, I'll be back in a bit. I'm off to get a dog to go with this pony.'



I thought you just did pony shows.


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## daftandbarmy (29 Oct 2021)

Blackadder1916 said:


> I thought you just did pony shows.
> 
> View attachment 66933



Top Tip: If you chase Pegasus, the Parachute Regiment's Mascot, and try to ride him around the Officers' Mess you'll get about a million extras.

Not me, fortunately, but it was fun to watch


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## AirDet (1 Nov 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Right after, "could we have a word over _here_, sir?"


That was my go to line. As a WO I was attached to a capt with the instructions "unf*** that man". He came around after a few words in the corner.


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## CBH99 (2 Nov 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Quite possible but I would think that also suggests 90% of the CAF isn't mature enough to handle feedback and evaluating subordinates.


I can’t remember for the life of me which course I was on… perhaps this will ring a bell for someone.   

But after the course, we did a panel interview with 3 of our instructors.  We were basically asked to greater selves on effort, leadership we displayed, things we thought we did well, things we knew we didn’t do very well at, and things that we didn’t realize we needed to work on until the course was underway and we were lacking.  

Instructors did not really offer any criticism or feedback in a traditional way.  You basically self critique any instructors would help progress the conversation by asking questions such as “Why do you feel you didn’t do that very well?”  Or “ why do you feel like that was one of your strengths?”

It was honestly the best feedback I think I’ve ever got.  I have the freedom to be brutally honest and open about the good and the bad, and it really helped me to tweak what I needed to focus on moving forwards.


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## daftandbarmy (2 Nov 2021)

CBH99 said:


> I can’t remember for the life of me which course I was on… perhaps this will ring a bell for someone.
> 
> But after the course, we did a panel interview with 3 of our instructors.  We were basically asked to greater selves on effort, leadership we displayed, things we thought we did well, things we knew we didn’t do very well at, and things that we didn’t realize we needed to work on until the course was underway and we were lacking.
> 
> ...



That is a 'world class' approach to leadership learning, believe it or not. Too bad it doesn't happen with greater frequency elsewhere...


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## CBH99 (2 Nov 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> That is a 'world class' approach to leadership learning, believe it or not. Too bad it doesn't happen with greater frequency elsewhere...


I apologize for all the typos.  Autocorrect can’t stop ‘helping’ me…

I currently work at a ‘establishment’ and after each shift, the security does a ‘post shift meeting.’   Just a quick, informal chat about how that night went.  What we did well as a team, what we need to change in order to improve if something needs to improve, a chance to chat internally about any problems or events that took place, and just shoot the breeze.   

I’ve taken this approach when mentoring some of the younger and newer staff.  Every single one of them is a genuinely good person, and sometimes we find ourselves in situations that we never would’ve expected.   

Where I can offer concrete training & guidance, I do.  But sometimes it’s best to just let them learn the lessons, and guide them so they are absorbed & learned from - rather than just preach or wag a finger.  


I find I apply so many things from the military in both my regular day job in my little side hustle.  

A few of the guys I work with are still currently in the CAF, and there’s a noticeable difference in how problems are approached and learned from.


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## AirDet (4 Nov 2021)

CBH99 said:


> I can’t remember for the life of me which course I was on… perhaps this will ring a bell for someone.
> 
> But after the course, we did a panel interview with 3 of our instructors.  We were basically asked to greater selves on effort, leadership we displayed, things we thought we did well, things we knew we didn’t do very well at, and things that we didn’t realize we needed to work on until the course was underway and we were lacking.
> 
> ...


Sounds like ILQ.


----------

