# Leave Policy – Christmas / Holidays  [Merged]



## SEB123 (27 Sep 2004)

I'll be on basic on Christmas day And I want to know how many days off I Will have


----------



## Kevin_B (27 Sep 2004)

I think someone here said it was two weeks.


----------



## SEB123 (30 Sep 2004)

Are you sure it looks like a lot of weeks


----------



## Inch (30 Sep 2004)

The standard practice is 2 weeks block leave, with weekends it works out to be 16 or 17 days.  It's like that everywhere I've ever been.

Cheers


----------



## SEB123 (30 Sep 2004)

thanks


----------



## Bradboy (29 Jul 2005)

Howdy... does anyone know when Christmas leave is, if there is an actual Christmas leave? If so what are the dates? And also, if you are doing your BMQ or SQ and it runs through Christmas time, does it stop for the holidays and then continue afterwards? I must know as my family is planning a trip for Christmas break and would like to know if I'll be able to tag along. Any info would be much appreciated.


----------



## Blakey (29 Jul 2005)

Christmas leave (for 2 VP at least), is usually from around 12-13 Dec until the 5th or 6th 0f Jan of the following year.
I cant imagine courses running through the holidays....although, stranger things have happened.

EDIT: Anyone at the the schools have any info?


----------



## familyman (15 Aug 2005)

Hey everyone,
this is Angel...Forest Gumps wife. My hubby has just left this past Saturday for Basic and was told that he would be getting 2 weeks off for Christmas, I was just wondering though if his break will fall during his next training period or if they will hold off on the training and start it when they're back from Christmas break...if anyone has any idea, can you please let me know,
                                                                                 Thanks,
                                                                                     Angel


----------



## DrSize (15 Aug 2005)

I will be starting IAP/BOTP Sept 12th and if everything goes well will be graduating Dec 16th.  My question is do we get time off for Christmas and if so how long before I will report back to St Jean for SLT???

Another question, I read that as a member of the CF you are entitled to one paid visit(airfare) a year to go see next of kin.  If we have a break at Christmas could I use this policy to get a return ticket home(where my parents live) or would I have to pay for a plane ticket out of my pocket to go home for Christmas???

Thanks


----------



## Michael OLeary (15 Aug 2005)

Yes, you will get Christmas off. Courses starting in the new year may start as early as the 3rd or 4th of Jan. (1 Jan 06 is a Sunday, so Monday is the designated holiday, Tuesday could be your travel day and course start Wed 4 Jan. (Unless, of course, the school has a very tight schedule and you may start a day or two earlier.))

See CFAO 16-1 -- LEAVE for general information on management of leave, statutory holidays, etc.

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/016-01_e.asp


----------



## Benoit (25 Sep 2005)

what regiment is he going to.If its RCR he will start his sq a few days after basic according to the battle school


----------



## missNickers (27 Sep 2005)

??? Hi. I'm wondering the same thing about the 2 week break over christmas.  My boyfriend just left on Saturday for basic in Borden.  He's infantry, 2platoon Bcompany..  I'm also wondering about the break. Is it a for sure thing that i can go see him for a few days, half way through his course???  Is it possible that he will do his SQ in the same place he will be posted??  And how often will we get to talk while hes away? This is so hard. I just hope that when basics over, that i can move out to wherever he is..  Would appreciate any feedback.  Thanks, Niki


----------



## beach_bum (28 Sep 2005)

He will not be sent to his first posting until after his trades training.  So, as Infantry he must complete BMQ, SQ and BIQ prior to his posting.  If you are common law (or married) you (and his and your stuff) will not be sent anywhere prior to this.


----------



## army_girlfriend (10 Nov 2005)

My boyfriend is finishing his basic training in St.Jean on December 8th, then he goes to Gagetown New Brunswick..He is home on the 16th for Christmas though! I cannnn't wait!!


----------



## Gouki (10 Nov 2005)

missNickers said:
			
		

> ??? Hi. I'm wondering the same thing about the 2 week break over christmas.  My boyfriend just left on Saturday for basic in Borden.  He's infantry, 2platoon Bcompany..  I'm also wondering about the break. Is it a for sure thing that i can go see him for a few days, half way through his course???



Depends on his staff   



			
				missNickers said:
			
		

> Is it possible that he will do his SQ in the same place he will be posted??



Meaford is a lovely hour and a half drive or so from Borden, he'll probably have the joy of going there.




			
				missNickers said:
			
		

> And how often will we get to talk while hes away?



Not much. Even if he has a cell phone, because instructors and random senior NCO's are hiding behind bushes and sitting in trees with binoculars looking for someone with a cornflake to jack up, and walking and talking on a cell phone is similar to taping a figure 11 on yourself and saying "I'm all yours"


----------



## bobbyhill (11 Nov 2005)

Uggggggh. Meaford. My back still aches when i hear that word. Actually, make that ankles. I loved making those ruts, but DAMN they suck to walk on.  Anyways, have fun with that.

Semper Paratus


----------



## INF_Poulin (14 Sep 2006)

Hey All
My MBQ ends the 15th of December (so I was told anyways,) and I was just wondering if we will go to SQ (I'm going infantry reg force) right away, or will we get leave for Christmas break or what? Just some opions please.  My BMQ starts 18Sept at Bordon.  I did search this, and didn't find anyting relative.

Thanks much
jer


----------



## navymich (14 Sep 2006)

INF_Poulin said:
			
		

> I did search this, and didn't find anyting relative.



This should answer it for you: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/50235/post-443990.html#msg443990

As you can tell after reading that, there isn't a firm answer.  Someone out there probably knows, but you will find out for sure towards the end of you BMQ, and that might not even be a sure thing.


----------



## Pea (14 Sep 2006)

I can tell you that when my ex did his Basic it ended around December 12th. He then got leave until a few days after New Years, when he had to report to PAT platoon.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (14 Sep 2006)

Dependent on the needs of the Service, you'll be given instructions. Wait for an official word from your chain of command, or query them. That should have been your first step before asking here anyway.


----------



## cbt arms sub tech (6 Dec 2006)

This may be a stupid question, with the fast pace of operations throughout the country concerning task forces & the upcoming training schedules, do key players involving TF01-08, take off a few weeks for Christmas Leave...As from what I understand, alot of bases & camps are basically empty closer & closer to Christmas....Don't get me wrong, I don't expect anyone to work around Dec 23-26, but are they working over the holidays with such a crunch on time & resources....

Just curious, wondering if everyone stands down, an eventually start up the green machine on January 7th or 8th, 2007?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (6 Dec 2006)

cbt arms sub tech said:
			
		

> ....Don't get me wrong, I don't expect anyone to work around Dec 23-26, but are they working over the holidays with such a crunch on time & resources....
> 
> Just curious, wondering if everyone stands down, an eventually start up the green machine on January 7th or 8th, 2007?



Please explain to my boss why Brucie won't be there those day's, will ya??


----------



## cbt arms sub tech (6 Dec 2006)

I figured I'd get some sarcastic results, can't spell either....


----------



## Armymedic (6 Dec 2006)

cbt arms sub tech said:
			
		

> Just curious, wondering if everyone stands down, an eventually start up the green machine on January 7th or 8th, 2007?


Serious answer.... yes they should. The Reg F have annual leave days to burn down.

Sarcastic answer: At 13 months+ from deployment date, if they do not take a full Christmas leave period, then they shall go down as the largest spin cycle in the history of the CF.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (6 Dec 2006)

cbt arms sub tech said:
			
		

> I figured I'd get some sarcastic results,



Does that mean no??......AWW POOP. :'(


----------



## cbt arms sub tech (6 Dec 2006)

Awwww Poop is a good word for it, all well....


----------



## aesop081 (6 Dec 2006)

St. Micheal's Medical Team said:
			
		

> Serious answer.... yes they should. *The Reg F* have annual leave days to burn down.



My unit certainly doesnt stand down for xmas........Army units have that luxury but we do not.


----------



## cbt arms sub tech (6 Dec 2006)

What unit, an do you go down to minimal number of staff....


----------



## Fishbone Jones (6 Dec 2006)

What is a 'cbt arms sub tech' and what do you do?


----------



## Armymedic (6 Dec 2006)

cdnaviator said:
			
		

> My unit certainly doesnt stand down for xmas........Army units have that luxury but we do not.



Is your unit involved in TF 1-08...or any army TF?

Your unit also doesn't sleep in tents 4 seasons of the yr. You win some, you lose some.


----------



## aesop081 (6 Dec 2006)

St. Micheal's Medical Team said:
			
		

> Is your unit involved in TF 1-08...or any army TF?
> 
> Your unit also doesn't sleep in tents 4 seasons of the yr. You win some, you lose some.



In all fairnes you said "Reg F"....not "TF 1-08"


----------



## Armymedic (6 Dec 2006)

True. Reg F implying the regular component of the TF.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (6 Dec 2006)

recceguy said:
			
		

> What is a 'cbt arms sub tech' and what do you do?



Beat me to it...


----------



## cbt arms sub tech (6 Dec 2006)

Just a name I picked up overseas....


----------



## PPCLI Guy (6 Dec 2006)

cbt arms sub tech said:
			
		

> Just a name I picked up overseas....



That is odd - you posted this in response to the same question in Aug 2005:



> Just a nick name I came up with some night out in the field of Wainwright!



From a quick review of your posts, you are a reservist who has yet to go on a tour.  Where exactly "overseas"?

Edited to change to the right millenium...


----------



## Journeyman (6 Dec 2006)

....and today's lesson kids, is on the perils of BS'ing   >


----------



## Armymedic (6 Dec 2006)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> From a quick review of your posts, you are a reservist who has yet to go on a tour.  Where exactly "overseas"?



Couldn't have been recent or far, or he should have known the answer to his initial question.


----------



## spud (6 Dec 2006)

St. Micheal's Medical Team said:
			
		

> Couldn't have been recent or far, or he should have known the answer to his initial question.



Perhaps he was one of those "virtual" overseas service people who pop up every so often ???


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (6 Dec 2006)

...and continuing the downward spiral that is this thread,


			
				PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> That is odd - you posted this in response to the same question in Aug 1005:



Darn, you guys have been around a long time.......


----------



## armyvern (7 Dec 2006)

cbt arms sub tech said:
			
		

> Just a name I picked up overseas....



That's nice to know. For just a minute there I thought that you were going to pose as claim to be a cross between a *Sup* *Tech* and a *Combat Storesman*. Kind of like a hybrid if you will. And that thought, scared the poop out of me. Really, it did.


----------



## George Wallace (7 Dec 2006)

I knew as soon as this Topic was opened that 'It' was a stupid question by someone who was not a member.  Obviously, if this person had been in the CF for this long, they would know the 'drill'.  This has been fun, and the exposure of someone's credentials has been interesting, but it is now time to put this to bed.

The Topic on LEAVE over the Christmas holidays has been covered before.  Please SEARCH.

TOPIC LOCKED.


----------



## Metlica (20 Sep 2008)

Hey, 
I believe I'm starting BMQ on the 29th of September and basically the 13th week is on the week of Christmas and therefore 
do any of you think my training will go into the week of christmas, just to get it done and over with?

Also how many times or when are we allowed to leave the base? I know it is a privilege but some things change
over the years and basically I would like the most up to date information.

Thanks a lot


----------



## Klinkaroo (20 Sep 2008)

Metlica said:
			
		

> Hey,
> I believe I'm starting BMQ on the 29th of September and basically the 13th week is on the week of Christmas and therefore
> do any of you think my training will go into the week of christmas, just to get it done and over with?
> 
> ...



After your 4th week you MAY get the weekends if you did a good job and your instructors judge that you earned it. That is the only time (I recall) that we could leave base and they will tell you this but just a reminder if your leaving base, fill out a leave pass... You might get evenings to go to canex and stuff but again priviliges not rights. Last but not least just because you get your first weeked doesn't mean you get the second and so on.

As for christmas I will let someone else awnser this one.


----------



## George Wallace (20 Sep 2008)

How about a little SEARCH on Christmas Leave?  It has been covered many times before.  Since Confederation we have celebrated 140 Christmas' in the Canadian military.  I am sure the question has been asked at least once in that time.


----------



## traviss-g (5 Nov 2008)

Hey,
I'm just wondering do they start new BMQ's in the month of december? I am doing my medical soon and am guessing i wont be ready to go until december but people I have talked to say that they don't start BMQ in december and skip over until january. Is that true? I am really hoping to leave ASAP and sitting around for another month waiting just because of a holiday would suck.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (5 Nov 2008)

AFAIK, yes, courses start at CFLRS in the month of December.  Who are the 'people' you have talked to?  If it was the mailman, the guy at the corner store, etc, try asking that question, oh, I don't know, say at the CFRC staff when you are there doing your medical soon.


----------



## Narcisse (5 Nov 2008)

I heard on this forum that the CFLRS  was closing for holidays from December 10th to January 6th... I thought it was true but with what you are saying it doesn't seems to be true...


----------



## Mapcinq (5 Nov 2008)

I had my medical in June, so I hope they start some in December as well.  Finally got merit listed a few weeks back after some confusion as to the location of my file... lol.  Hopefully you wont have to wait as long as I have (althought I am working full time so its not that bad).


----------



## Eye In The Sky (5 Nov 2008)

CFLRS will go on Christmas Leave, just like every other year.  I doubt it will be as early as the 10th though I could be wrong, as the Christmas Leave Instructions I've seen have Christmas Leave beginning on the 20 Dec 08 and ending 04 Jan 09.  But regardless of when the leave period starts, training continues until that date.  Maybe someone who is posted to CFLRS (staff, not candidates) has seen the Christmas Leave Instruction and can post detailed info.

If you are that curious, ask at your CFRCs.


----------



## Celticgirl (5 Nov 2008)

I know a few people who are at CFLRS now, and one friend's hubby said his wife will be home on break from 11 Dec. to 3 Jan.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (5 Nov 2008)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> I know a few people who are at CFLRS now, and one friend's hubby said his wife will be home on break from 11 Dec. to 3 Jan.



Have they submitted leave passes yet, and did this come from their Course Staff, or rumours passed from platoon to platoon in the lineup in the Mess at breaky?  I am not saying it is not true, I am saying until something more official confirms it, to not count on it.  Rumours travel thru CFLRS like wildfire sometimes.  All I've seen are the ones put out by my unit, which are based on the ones put out by NDHQ.  CFLRS could very well be taking Block leave earlier than that.

If they are, perhaps there is no BMQ courses starting in Dec.  Why don't we wait for someone on staff at CFLRS to confirm what the plan is up there this year before this 'pin the tail on the donkey' game goes any further?


----------



## Celticgirl (5 Nov 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Have they submitted leave passes yet, and did this come from their Course Staff, or rumours passed from platoon to platoon in the lineup in the Mess at breaky?  I am not saying it is not true, I am saying until something more official confirms it, to not count on it.  Rumours travel thru CFLRS like wildfire sometimes.  All I've seen are the ones put out by my unit, which are based on the ones put out by NDHQ.



I only know as much as I posted above. Her husband relayed the information from his wife in St. Jean to some of her friends back home, including me. I've no idea how she was informed of this.


----------



## Mike Baker (5 Nov 2008)

I'd be so happy to start BMQ next month, but my guess is sometime in Jan.


Beav


----------



## Eye In The Sky (5 Nov 2008)

I'd be curious to see the fact from fiction on this one.  I do know that, according to my calendar, being on Leave from 11 Dec 08 - 06 Jan 09 would be 26 calendar days.

Assuming the CO is authorizing 2 x Short Leave days for both Dec and Jan; and given the 3 x Stat, 2 x Special Leave Days, IAW CFAO 16-1, which I can't link to at this time as the Internet site is down for maintenence, and including the normal 8 x Wknd Leave days over this period, you would be required to burn/use 9 Annual Leave Days.

26 - (4+3+2+8) = 9  right?

Recruits who get sworn in and report to CFLRS later this month are only going to receive 2 days leave for each full month of service this FY (Dec, Jan, Feb and Mar).  That is only 8 days Ann Leave.  So...there is a problem.  You can't take 9 days Ann Lve if you only have 8.

Now, aside from all that stuff, here is the bigger issue.  

*Those who will be at CFLRS in training leading up to this Christmas Holiday, please read this part.*

Lets pretend that, unofficially, you hear that you will be off on Leave beginning 11 Dec 08.  But, you didn't fill out a leave pass yet.  Or, you did fill out a leave pass but you haven't gotten it back yet (signed, that is).  If you go ahead and book a flight/train/boat/donkey/whatever to get home on the 11th before you have that leave pass, and then you find out that you aren't actually on leave until 19 Dec/pick a date 2008, the CF will NOT be responsible for that financially.

Did I see that happen before?  I sure did, to a whole bunch of people who just finished IAP/BOTP on 07 Dec 06.  They were *told* at CFLRS they would be starting Christmas Leave after duty on 15 Dec 06 (a Friday), but being that they were going to belong to CFLS Det St-Jean the Friday following grad, CFLS Det St-Jean would be responsible for their Leave Admin for Christmas.  Based on that, people went ahead and booked flights home, some to Nfld, some to BC, etc etc before they even graduated IAP/BOTP.

Guess how pissed off they were when CFLS Det St-Jean told them that they were not on Leave until after duty on 20 Dec 06?  Did those folks have signed leave passes in their hands?  Nope.  Were they ever officially told they were on leave beginning after duty 15 Dec 06?  Nope.  Were they *told* that they were on leave beginning 15 Dec 06?  Sure they were, by someone at CLFRS who thought that because that is when CFLRS went on Christmas Leave that year.  So...a hundred or so newly-minted Junior Officers reported to CFLS Det St-Jean on 08 Dec 06 thinking they were off on leave that following Friday.  All of them that had flights booked had to scramble to get them changed.  Everyone had to make phone calls to tell whoever was waiting for them that, no, they wouldn't be home on the 15th now.  Some of the people who had to rebook flights couldn't get on flights the night of the 20 Dec, or even the 21st of Dec that year.  IIRC, there was a BAD storm that was supposed to, and did hit, Montreal, 21 Dec 06.  Flights were delayed.  For those folks, it only got worse and morale was VERY low.

Maybe my little story is long.  Hopefully people learn from it.  And yes, that is a true story, and yes I was there to witness it.

(UFI - For those who don't know, CFLS [CF Language School] Det St-Jean is located in the Mega along with CFLRS)


----------



## traviss-g (5 Nov 2008)

Well the "people" i talked to were not in the CF, my friend, who is joining with me, talked to some of his friends in the CF who said they don't do BMQ in the month of december. But much of the information he has received from them and given to me has contradicted things said here so I think there may be a communication mix-up between the time his friends give him answers and the time he relays them to me  .


----------



## fire_guy686 (6 Nov 2008)

traviss-g said:
			
		

> Well the "people" i talked to were not in the CF, my friend, who is joining with me, talked to some of his friends in the CF who said they don't do BMQ in the month of december. But much of the information he has received from them and given to me has contradicted things said here so I think there may be a communication mix-up between the time his friends give him answers and the time he relays them to me  .



They do BMQ in December. I was still truckin along into December when I did my course and I know my in-law who did BMQ this past winter was also still training into December.


----------



## kkramar (9 May 2010)

My BMQ is dated for Sept 13, so I should be done by Dec 16. But if things happen (hopefully not), that I get recourse and have to go past Christmas. 
Do they give the holiday off during BMQ?
If they do give the holiday off, do they pay to fly you home and back or do you have to do that at your own expense?


----------



## 9nr Domestic (9 May 2010)

Yes, you will get leave over Christmas. Travel to and from your home is at your expense for Christmas leave. LTA (Leave Travel Assistance) is available, so it depends on where home is for you if and how much assistance you will receive.


----------



## the 48th regulator (9 May 2010)

And this episode is a closed.

Join us next time folks as Super Applicant defeats his new Arch-Enemy, Lackadaisical Man, to actually find the Search Function.  Watch as SA finds his friends in the North Pole, and gets into many shenanigans; until Santa and Lackadaisical Man Join forces to stop him!!

Until then, sleep tight, and join us for the further adventures of Applicant Man!!!

dileas

tess

milnet.ca staff


----------



## EpicBeardedMan (7 Jul 2010)

After doing multiple searches on the forums with no luck (Including "BMQ Christmas, BMQ Xmas, BMQ Christmas Leave, and Christmas Leave") I was wondering if anyone knows what dates we get off for christmas leave as my family is trying to plan a vacation. Any assistance would be awesome. I saw one thread that had the same question but the person said to search in the forums, as is the normal reply on these forums usually, which I did, but to no avail.

-Thanks


----------



## mariomike (7 Jul 2010)

Topic: "basic training - Christmas Leave":
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/12750/post-53773.html#msg53773


----------



## kratz (7 Jul 2010)

I searched for BMQ Christmas  and had no problem finding answers.

The exact dates each year will shift by a few days with the calender. Until your course staff give you instructions or a signed leave pass, all plans should be subject to change.


----------



## PMedMoe (7 Jul 2010)

Regardless what the dates are for XMas leave (as they differ pretty much each year), *do not* make _any_ financial committments before having a signed leave pass.

As far as your search, did you search only in the Basic Training forum?  I found these:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/93686/post-932197.html#msg932197

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/81074/post-775030.html#msg775030

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/77395/post-726211.html#msg726211


----------



## EpicBeardedMan (7 Jul 2010)

Thanks for the quick replies, for some reason they didnt show up when I did a search of the forums using the parameters that I used, it seems the search function is touchy. Pretty much I gathered is don't make plans because it's not 100% for certain with the dates, etc. Folks will be upset, oh well!

Thanks again


----------



## kratz (7 Jul 2010)

Do not get the wrong impression.

You can make plans, but do take the advice and not spend money on something that may have to be cancelled due to your leave dates do not match up with your intentions. 

Sure it is cheaper or easier to make bookings ect... this far in advance, but the work you have signed up for means things can change at a moment's notice.


----------



## GUNNER_BARBARIAN (17 Jul 2010)

I finish bmq on December 11 from Borden. I have heard that bmq shuts down for 3 weeks at xmas but was wondering if I will also get three weeks off from SQ?  Also wondering if anyone knows where an artilleryman would do his SQ?  Will it be in Gagetown or will I stay in Borden or something completely different?

Thanks in advance.

BARBARIAN


----------



## George Wallace (17 Jul 2010)

:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/34712/post-622442.html#msg622442

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/41737/post-444339.html#msg444339

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/12750/post-630136.html#msg630136

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/23622/post-134196.html#msg134196


----------



## MrWicked (14 Sep 2010)

I will be starting BMQ November 29th... and I am curious as to how this will all work, I have been told we get Holiday leave and then continue on our training until April.

When does the Holiday leave date start? and when does it end? How will this affect how we are treated in the BMQ course, are we going to be pushed harder and restricted more because of the time we get off?

When we go on Holiday Leave what do we do with our equipment? Do we leave it in Quebec? Do we take it with us? What with our gear? and our CADPAT uniform? Will we get time to dust and clean up our rooms when we come back, because I am sure that they will be dusty after sitting for so long..


----------



## hold_fast (14 Sep 2010)

You haven't even started yet and you're worried about the dust that will accumulate over your Christmas break?


----------



## MrWicked (14 Sep 2010)

Being worried and being prepared are to different things,  Id appreciate some advice, your criticism yields no purpose....


----------



## Kat Stevens (14 Sep 2010)

Probably, you will secure your kit in the hermetically sealed environment of your locker, an engineering marvel that is the envy of the free world.  Most likely your return to basic will be on a Saturday, to give you a day to sort your area out.  They won't plop you down first thing day one back and start pouring the poop to you.  That happens on the second day.


----------



## Lavitz (14 Sep 2010)

I had the Christmas break when I did my BMQ so I can answer your questions.

The break started on Wed, Dec 16th, and I went back on Sat, Jan 9th. You can pretty much choose what time you come back as long as you're back before Sunday @ 6:00pm. We were pushed harder right before the break, and even had our weekend (week 5) taken away from us because we weren't "good enough" and were leaving in a couple days anyway.

You leave all your issued stuff there in your locker and locked kit bags/barrack box. We had PT the morning of the day we were leaving, and not everybody leaves at once so my Fire Team Partner was nice enough to do my laundry because I left a couple hours before him.

Surprisingly, when we got back, the place was DUST FREE. And nobody in our platoon had cleaned anything. To this day we don't know if they had somebody clean the place for us (highly doubtful) or not.


----------



## owa (14 Sep 2010)

Lavitz said:
			
		

> I had the Christmas break when I did my BMQ so I can answer your questions.
> 
> The break started on Wed, Dec 16th, and I went back on Sat, Jan 9th. You can pretty much choose what time you come back as long as you're back before Sunday @ 6:00pm. We were pushed harder right before the break, and even had our weekend (week 5) taken away from us because we weren't "good enough" and were leaving in a couple days anyway.
> 
> ...



For some reason that story about the dust made me burst out laughing haha.


----------



## Lavitz (14 Sep 2010)

owa said:
			
		

> For some reason that story about the dust made me burst out laughing haha.



Haha.  Thought somebody might like that. Honestly though, there was literally no dust anywhere.


----------



## MrWicked (15 Sep 2010)

Lavitz said:
			
		

> I had the Christmas break when I did my BMQ so I can answer your questions.
> 
> The break started on Wed, Dec 16th, and I went back on Sat, Jan 9th. You can pretty much choose what time you come back as long as you're back before Sunday @ 6:00pm. We were pushed harder right before the break, and even had our weekend (week 5) taken away from us because we weren't "good enough" and were leaving in a couple days anyway.
> 
> ...



Thanks buddy, the most informative piece post in this entire thread! I know everyone laughs about the dust shit but really, I know how anal they are about it...


----------



## winnipegoo7 (2 Dec 2011)

I’m hoping a clerk can help me with an annual leave problem. I am posted to a warship and my primary next of kin is in Manitoba.  I was given leave to go home to Manitoba, but they told me I have to stand a duty watch in the middle of my leave, because ships don’t take ‘block leave’ and it is an every man for himself situation (Ie. You want the day off you pay someone to take it for you or trade.)  So I then asked if I could submit multiple leave passes so I didn’t have to waste leave days while on duty and I was told that I can only submit one leave pass for the holiday season, because it would be too much work for the admin people.

My questions:
1	Doesn’t a leave pass mean you don’t need to report for duty?
2	I thought it was mandatory for my unit to allow me to go to my next of kin for the leave period, am I wrong?
3	They made us write ‘Member responsible for duty watch’ on our leave passes, is this allowed?
4	I have heard of, but haven’t found, a reference that says members taking 15 or more days of leave are to be taken off the duty watch
5	Do units have to have ‘block leave’ at Christmas?

I know this is a lot of complaining, but I was in the Army before and I never had a leave problem until I joined that Navy.

Thanks


----------



## Pat in Halifax (2 Dec 2011)

Slow Down!
First off, you should be taking this up with your Departmental Coordinator (AKA The Chief!) through your divisional system. Second, it is illegal for someone to take money for a duty watch!! What you are saying is and has been the norm on major warships for over a decade. Find someone on the opposite leave period in the same predicament and swap watches with them. As for multiple leave passes, THEY are wrong. If as an example, I am on leave from 10 Dec to 17 Dec and am duty on 13 Dec, I MUST submit two leave passes (10-12 and 14-17). If, while on leave and duty, I fall down a ladder.....you can see where this 'could' go.
Questions
1. Yes unless there is a condition in the "Remarks" block
2. You are incorrect though you can get LTA
3. Yes
4. It says 'should' not 'shall'
5. Again, they 'should' - see #4

I am not a clerk but have submitted/ proofread/recommended/declined/approved my share of leave passes in 30 years. Don't rock the boat on this one. Try to resolve it among friends/coworkers before taking it higher but don't waste your efforts looking for a reg. I suspect why you had no issues in the Army is because policies and procedures were well known to you. In the Navy, for a variety of reasons, things are done differently; not better or worse just differently.
I do hope you can resolve this peacefully and enjoy your leave in Manitoba!


----------



## Strike (2 Dec 2011)

Your best bet is to find someone who is staying in the local area and offer to take two of their shifts some time in the future (Easter maybe?) for this one of yours.  I've done this, my brother has done this and I'm sure many other people on this board have done this.  It shouldn't be too hard.

Note: I'm currently filling a position that doesn't take duty because I'm always on call.  I volunteered to hold the phone for a week since I would be in town anyway.


----------



## eurowing (2 Dec 2011)

Do you actually have a pass that says you are on leave on the day in question?


----------



## CountDC (2 Dec 2011)

OH OH!  Eurowing is about to go somewhere dangerous me thinks.   ;D

You should have more than one leave pass - can't be on leave and on duty the same day. As for the excuse they gave you of too much work for the admin staff - $%#^ them.  It's our job and it only takes another few seconds to post a second leave pass so whats the issue.  Damn Navy clerks starting to act like they are Bos'ns  ;D. What ever day you have a duty watch for should not be on your leave pass unless you trade duties as previously mentioned.  That should not be a problem, I was always able to find someone willing.  Might have to do a 2 for 1 but if you want it then you have to anty up.


----------



## ballz (2 Dec 2011)

CountDC said:
			
		

> You should have more than one leave pass - can't be on leave and on duty the same day. As for the excuse they gave you of too much work for the admin staff - $%#^ them.



That's exactly what came to my mind.... You shouldn't be losing an annual for a day that you are not on leave, even if that means the clerks have to do their job and change the leave pass to two leave passes. What a ridiculous reason to give to someone for not making things right.


----------



## Pat in Halifax (2 Dec 2011)

The issue here is not about being on leave and duty-most departments will get you a day in lieu. The issue is if injured while on duty...and on leave...Likely only the supervisor's head will roll but you never know. I know this is done but it really shouldn't be. Some pinhead somewhere will have to rewrite the CF 100 and it will be 7 pages (sort of like the new NOK) because someone was too f***ing lazy to take an extra 30 seconds.
Again, I hope you can work this out.
Let us know how you make out by the way.


----------



## aesop081 (2 Dec 2011)

winnipegoo7 said:
			
		

> 2	I thought it was mandatory for my unit to allow me to go to my next of kin for the leave period, am I wrong?



You are indeed wrong.




> 5	Do units have to have ‘block leave’ at Christmas?



No, they do not.


----------



## Strike (2 Dec 2011)

To the OP -- Not that I'm encouraging you to stir the pot, but if you're that worried about losing a day of leave, then submit a cancelation of leave request along with two new leave passes around the date you are on duty.

Of course, this will only be required should you not be able to change your duty with someone else.


----------



## Sub_Guy (2 Dec 2011)

Am I missing something here?  During my time spent in the Navy, Christmas and New Years were two separate leave periods.  Therefore if you were on leave during Christmas, you could expect to stand 3 or four duty watches during the New Years leave time frame or opposite for those who took New Years leave.   

Has the RCN stopped doing this?


----------



## Stoker (2 Dec 2011)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> Am I missing something here?  During my time spent in the Navy, Christmas and New Years were two separate leave periods.  Therefore if you were on leave during Christmas, you could expect to stand 3 or four duty watches during the New Years leave time frame or opposite for those who took New Years leave.
> 
> Has the RCN stopped doing this?



Yes they still are. However MARLANT encourages all commands to allow the max amount of leave to be taken. Its up to the mbr to arrange a relief from leave if they can, usually either Christmas or new years is taken. If a mbr has a NOK away a supervisor should try and arrange the leave IF possible around the dates the mbr put in for.


----------



## meni0n (2 Dec 2011)

So what happens if he doesn't show up for his duty? Charged for not being on duty while on leave?


----------



## Pat in Halifax (2 Dec 2011)

Absent from place of duty (because it is annotated on the leave pass). As I said earlier, the Navy has their own way of doing some things and trust me when I say, there is a reason. I have a (good) feeling this will be resolved.
Strike-Good suggestion but he is going to Winterpeg-a bit of a haul to come back for a duty watch. (Though I did it once from Cornwall---I was tired.)


----------



## Halifax Tar (2 Dec 2011)

The deal is the Reg PO puts out the duty schedule. Thats gospel. If you need a duty watch changed regardless of the time of year or if you have or were putting in a leave pass during period its the sailors responsibility either switch it off with another equally qualified member or break up the leave pass. Usually, and I use that word gingerly, the Reg PO will release the Xmas/NY duty watch schedule quite far in advance to the members can have lots of heads up in order to make switches. 

BE ADVISED there is a proper form you can get from the coxswain's office to switch duty watches. 

I myself have had to deal with this while I was on the east coast but my NOK, at the time, was in Kingston. It does suck but back then the older married killicks stepped in and took the xmas duty watches so us single members could get to go home and see our families over the holidays.


----------



## MedCorps (2 Dec 2011)

meni0n said:
			
		

> So what happens if he doesn't show up for his duty? Charged for not being on duty while on leave?



This is a good question.  

So I would see it playing out like this.  Does not show up for duty.  Charge occurs. Goes to a trial. 

Why did you not show up for your duty on XX date? 

Accused: Sir, I was on leave. I have a valid and signed CF-100 for the period I was to be on watch. I was XXX km away in another province and I was not recalled from leave in accordance with QR&O 16.01. 

Did you know that you had military duties imposed upon you during the leave period. 

Accused: Yes, sir it was annotated on my CF-100. 

The question that will have to be resolved will be: 

Does the annotation on the remarks column on the CF-100 subject a member on leave to serve while on leave? 
--> if I was sitting the trial I would say no, you cannot subject someone on leave to service using the remarks box on the leave pass.  

Was there a requirement of the CoC to issue leave passes in such a manner to ensure that the member was clearly on duty and not leave?
--> I would say yes. 

Was there a requirement for the member to ensure that this matter was resolved prior to going on leave? 
--> I would say yes.  In fact, if they failed to do so, although you might not have been absent from your duties, you may have been negligent in the performance of your duties to ensure that the watch was not left unmanned. 

I have never sat (or seen) a trial like this... just working through the process in the most cursory of manners.   

It could get messy and will most likely end poorly for you inside or outside of the disciplinary process. Especially inside of the summary trial process. 

MC


----------



## MedCorps (2 Dec 2011)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> The deal is the Reg PO puts out the duty schedule. Thats gospel. If you need a duty watch changed regardless of the time of year or if you have or were putting in a leave pass during period its the sailors responsibility either switch it off with another equally qualified member or break up the leave pass.



I would argue that the Reg PO's duty schedule is not gospel, but rather the CO's signature on the CF-100 takes presidence over anything (or everything) that the Reg PO wants me to do. 

I would suggest that the my CoC should not recommend or authorize me to proceed on A/L unless they have no duties for me to execute. I would also suggest that if there is a military requirement per QR&O 16.01 then they should withhold me from leave during that requirement.  

Playing devils advocate (somewhat). 

MC


----------



## Pat in Halifax (2 Dec 2011)

Please let this play out. There is no need for this kind of thing. We are all on the same team. You are guessing at questions and at best speculating on answers. Unless there's a JAG lawyer on these forums, none of us knows the ins and outs. Lets do this without the lawyers (Especially the lower-deck lawyers). As well MedCorps, the HoD authorizes the leave(Navy way-we manage our own)...after clearing with the RegPO. Please, leave it alone. 

It wont get messy.


----------



## MedCorps (2 Dec 2011)

The HoD is authorized to issue A/L by the CO IAW QR&O 16.14.  The CO was just used as I was unsure of who the CO had authorized to issue leave in this members unit.  If the HoD checks with the Reg PO to ensure that the member is not subject to duties and then authorizes A/L on behalf of the CO then the Reg PO should realize that member is not subject to duties under the authority of the HoD. The CF-100 is a powerful document and with the short amount of authorized A/L we get a year it needs to be protected accordingly.  On the other side of the fence, if you are not on A/L then you are subject to the demands of the service, weekend, holiday, 20 days in a row, or otherwise. 

I agree that everyone is on the same team and that it will play out.  I was just answering the question.... what would happen if the member just did not show up for his watch. There is no lower-deck lawyer playing intended, it was just playing out the hypothetical.  Do I think that sailor Bloggins here should neglect his appointed duties, with our without a valid CF-100 in hand... categorically not.  It is good to think through both sides of the argument and look at the perspective from an external viewer who manages leave daily (I have never served with the RCN or provided medical support to the RCN.   

I have sat, as the Presiding Officer, on a number of summary trials for members who absented themselves.  The JAG is normally only involved, on the periphery, when the charge is being laid.  I have recalled members from leave, withheld leave for military reasons, and signed more leave passes then I care to try and count. 

MC


----------



## Navalsnpr (2 Dec 2011)

The Canadian Forces Leave Policy Manual (A-PP-005-LVE/AG-001) is the CF reference for leave.

            http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pd/lea-con/doc/cflpm-mprcfc-eng.pdf

Commanding Officers are instructed to and will provide guidance on the administration of leave through written direction, however CO's must ensure that operational commitments are maintained. In the case of HMC Ships, that includes duty watches.  

You need to read the link above and read all documentation (Routine Orders, Temporary Memorandum/Instructions etc) from your ship's CoC.

If you find something in either of these references that supports the questions you posed to this forum, I suggest you quickly hop on the keyboard at work and draft a memorandum to your CoC.. however I highly doubt you will find anything.

As for 'Block Leave'... that works for personnel in Force Generation Mode who are Posted or Attach Posted to a school on course. For those who are posted to operational units that are considered Force Employment, 'Block Leave' is unattainable.. especially on HMC Ships with duty watch requirements.

P.S. I'm in Halifax, my wife is in Ottawa and I'm duty on Xmas Eve so I'll wake up on Christmas day onboard.


----------



## armyvern (2 Dec 2011)

Edited to remove my rant:

22 years since I've been with the Navy, and they still haven't sorted this issue out ...

Is it so difficult to put out a duty schedule in advance and have members submit leave passes after it's publication. Seems like such a simple fix. 

 :brickwall:


----------



## Pat in Halifax (2 Dec 2011)

If we could possibly drop this, I have been in touch with the individual.  I promise he wont get f***ed.
Vern, I respect you to the world's end, but this is the Navy...
I was a RegPO; It wasn't us, it's the grown ups....


----------



## armyvern (3 Dec 2011)

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> If we could possibly drop this, I have been in touch with the individual.  I promise he wont get f***ed.
> Vern, I respect you to the world's end, but this is the Navy...
> I was a RegPO; It wasn't us, it's the grown ups....



I understand it's the grown-ups; exactly why my UDI (as the CSM) would state: "charges not warranted". It isn't the members problem to sort out duty lists executed erroneously by his CoC after he has been authorized leave --- despite them trying to make him accountable to fix their mistakes by a _catch-all_ statement in the remarks block of his leave pass****. It is the members responsibility to bring their error to their attention IF he is aware they have placed him on duty while he has already been authorized annual leave that covers that duty period; they then have 2 choices: amend his leave pass and split it into two so that he is not on leave during the duty date or find a replacement themselves to correct their error.

**** I'll point out that if they insist the "comments" on that leave pass are valid and enforceable, then absolutley valid too are the the start and end dates on that very same "authorized by the HoD" leave pass. They place him on duty AFTER that authorization = their mistake. He sneaks a leave pass through AFTER being placed on duty = his mistake. The fact that they actually include this comment in the remarks block tells me that they believe it's always the members problem to fix ... that's irritating when it's such a simple thing to publish your duty list PRIOR to submission of holiday leave passes. Other Units in this outfit have managed to successfully pull this off for decades now ...


----------



## SupersonicMax (3 Dec 2011)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> amend his leave pass and split it into two so that he is not on leave during the duty date


And compensate him for any cost incurred by the amended leave pass.


----------



## armyvern (3 Dec 2011)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> And compensate him for any cost incurred by the amended leave pass.



Certainly if mbr is single and had been authorized leave and was travelling to his NOK under LTA; then, they certainly would owe him compensation for any cancelled travel arrangements/costs. Their error (oversight in populating duty lists in this particular case) should _never_ cost the member money.


----------



## trigger324 (3 Dec 2011)

This can be sorted out so easily. See if you can find someone in your section/department who does the same job on the duty watch and who lives/is staying in the local area during the holidays and work out an agreement with him by trading off this duty watch for one or even two for after you get back into town. When I was in the Navy we did this all the time. I was a local guy who would occasionally do it for guys from out of town when an instance like this came up. There's got to somebody who will do this for you on your ship.


----------



## Danjanou (3 Dec 2011)

SafetysOff your post was deleted by Mods. Consider this your one freebie. I would suggest you put the safety on before you have another ND.

Staff


----------



## Pusser (3 Dec 2011)

I have some expertise in this area.  Let's take a look.  My comments are in red:

QR&O 16.01 – WITHHOLDING OF AND RECALL FROM LEAVE

(1) Leave may be withheld from an officer or non- commissioned member *only when there is a military requirement to do so.*  Although one can argue the Duty Watch is an imperative military requirement, poor administration in setting the duty roster is not

(2) An officer or non-commissioned member on leave may be recalled to duty only:
(a) because of imperative military requirements; and 
(b) when the member’s *commanding officer personally directs* the member’s return to duty. (i.e. only the CO can cancel or recall someone from leave - not the RPO, not the coxswain, not the HOD or CHOD)

(3) An officer or non-commissioned member recalled to duty under paragraph (2) ceases to be on leave and is on duty during the period of the journey from the place from which he is recalled to his place of duty and during the period of the return journey if he resumes leave immediately after completion of the duty for which he was recalled. CBI 209.54 provides reimbursement for expenses incurred as a result of cancellation or recall (i.e. if you've already bought a plane ticket after your leave was approved, we pay you back - out of the unit budget)



			
				winnipegoo7 said:
			
		

> My questions:
> 1	Doesn’t a leave pass mean you don’t need to report for duty? Yes, that's exactly what a leave pass does.  It is documentary proof that you have permission to be away from your place of duty
> 2	I thought it was mandatory for my unit to allow me to go to my next of kin for the leave period, am I wrong?  No this is not precisely true.  Although your unit must give you leave (QR&O 16.01 Para 1) within certain perameters, the unit does control when you can go.
> 3	They made us write ‘Member responsible for duty watch’ on our leave passes, is this allowed?  I can't point to a regulation (because the concept is outlandish), but in my opinion it is p*ss poor leadership and management.  A little planning and preparation can avoid this altogether.
> ...



I'm very disappointed that someone would be having trouble with this.  In every ship or unit in which I have served in the Navy, we always took  great pains to ensure everyone got a chance to enjoy their leave.  At Christmas time in particular we bent over backwards to ensure the single guys got to go home and even the married guys with young kids got to spend Christmas morning with them.  This idea of not wanting to do multiple leave passes because it would be too much trouble is complete BS.  The form only allows you to list consecutive days.  If there is a break, then you need to do another leave pass.  Otherwise, we'd only do one leave pass a year - think about it.


----------



## medicineman (3 Dec 2011)

I'm trying to bite my tongue here, but I can not only guess what coast this dude is on, but likely guess what ship as well...

MM


----------



## Fishbone Jones (3 Dec 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> I'm very disappointed that someone would be having trouble with this.  In every ship or unit in which I have served in the Navy, we always took  great pains to ensure everyone got a chance to enjoy their leave.  At Christmas time in particular we bent over backwards to ensure the single guys got to go home and even the married guys with young kids got to spend Christmas morning with them.   This idea of not wanting to do multiple leave passes because it would be too much trouble is complete BS.  The form only allows you to list consecutive days.  If there is a break, then you need to do another leave pass.  Otherwise, we'd only do one leave pass a year - think about it.



Same here. Single Senior NCMs and married guys with older families always tried to cover off the slots so that younger guys, married and single, could get the time off. I still remember WOs on fire piquet over the holidays.

Guess that idea must be old fashioned and out of date.


----------



## dapaterson (3 Dec 2011)

Leadership:  You are always an example to your subordinates.  Try to be a good one.


----------



## Disenchantedsailor (3 Dec 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> I have some expertise in this area.  Let's take a look.  My comments are in red:
> 
> QR&O 16.01 – WITHHOLDING OF AND RECALL FROM LEAVE
> 
> ...



Pusser ... well said.  Being a former sailor (10 Years) I've seen and been in this situation before. to make a "mbr responsible for duty watch" clause on a leave pass is contrary to the concept of leave and simply a mechanism to make the RPO not repsonsible to do thier job.

The other side of this is IF the leave was approved prior to the publishing of the duty watch rotation than this very clearly falls into a recall from annual leave. This is a command function and in my new world of the Artillery (5 years) in my Troop Commander Days, I couldn't recall a soldier from leave, hell my Battery Commander couldn't. (In theory he could, he does have a small travel read TD budget that could be used) but this is held at the Regimental Level beginning with me explaining my leadership failure to the CO.

I've also read the comments and the rhetoric of this is the RCN not the Army. That's right but our Queen's Regulations and Orders come from the same book in the Canadian Forces our pay comes from the same Federal Budget.  Now I do understand the requirement for a duty watch, in the Army we have those too. Not as large we don't have the same requirements. Naval Duty Watches are larger (except on the Victoria, Kingston, and Orca Classes) and with good reason, someone needs to keep her afloat. That said there is always a way around duty watch scheduling and repairing it after the regulating office screws it up without making it the sailors family's problem.

Food for thought for the aggrieved Sailor.  expect this to be an uphill fight anything worth fighting for is, and probably plan to be working next Christmas.


----------



## ModlrMike (3 Dec 2011)

We seem to have this discussion every year. Last year I believe it was some Air Force member asking if they could be on call during leave. Is there no sense left? It's simple: you can't be on leave and on duty at the same time. The supervisors of these folks need to give their collective heads a shake.


----------



## Tank Troll (3 Dec 2011)

Germany was the same single guys got to fly home or go were ever on leave and married guys in the area did the duties. When I was in the Western Armour Regt the duty roster came out a month before leave was even thought about, and you could put your name in were ever an open block was. If you volunteered for duty on the 24,25 26 31 of December or 1 January you were free and clear of duty for 6 months. It all ways worked well.


----------



## eurowing (3 Dec 2011)

Tank Troll said:
			
		

> Germany was the same single guys got to fly home or go were ever on leave and married guys in the area did the duties. When I was in the Western Armour Regt the duty roster came out a month before leave was even thought about, and you could put your name in were ever an open block was. If you volunteered for duty on the 24,25 26 31 of December or 1 January you were free and clear of duty for 6 months. It all ways worked well.



Exactly how we did it in Germany with 1RCHA as well. I was a single rat and didn't usually go home on major holidays.  I would volunteer for those dates and be excused weekend duties for months!


----------



## armyvern (3 Dec 2011)

Tank Troll said:
			
		

> Germany was the same single guys got to fly home or go were ever on leave and married guys in the area did the duties. When I was in the Western Armour Regt the duty roster came out a month before leave was even thought about, and you could put your name in were ever an open block was. If you volunteered for duty on the 24,25 26 31 of December or 1 January you were free and clear of duty for 6 months. It all ways worked well.



Exactly how 99% of the Units I've served with have done it. It is quite normal to see all the Sgts and above pulling down all the Duty Supply Tech duty, working and staffing the IOR cells, manning the counters etc etc.

I've pulled a great many duties over the Holidays ... some of them weren't even extras.  8)


----------



## Ex-Dragoon (3 Dec 2011)

Sadly these days the RCN in Halifax seem to lack common sense. Morale is steadily plummenting and there is a lot of talk of releases and the younger guys not serving beyond their current contract.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon (3 Dec 2011)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Exactly how 99% of the Units I've served with have done it. It is quite normal to see all the Sgts and above pulling down all the Duty Supply Tech duty, working and staffing the IOR cells, manning the counters etc etc.
> 
> I've pulled a great many duties over the Holidays ... some of them weren't even extras.  8)



Agreed you always make sure the single guys and gals get some family time over the holidays.


----------



## ModlrMike (3 Dec 2011)

Virtually every unit I've been part of has asked for volunteers to staff the duty watches over Christmas break. These folks were often rewarded with time in lieu as compensation. It's a failure of leadership to put someone on duty when you know they're on leave, and then expect them to sort it out. Leaders are responsible for personnel management based on available resources. Annotating a duty watch on a member's leave pass is abdicating one's responsibility as a leader.


----------



## Halifax Tar (3 Dec 2011)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Sadly these days the RCN in Halifax seem to lack common sense. Morale is steadily plummeting and there is a lot of talk of releases and the younger guys not serving beyond their current contract.



This deserves its whole own thread...


----------



## Fishbone Jones (3 Dec 2011)

*I know it's not the case*, but this whole episode makes the Navy look like selfish, incompetent idiots.

Too much time on Centennials, executive curls and name changes to take care of the troops, would be the guess of many.


----------



## Strike (3 Dec 2011)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Virtually every unit I've been part of has asked for volunteers to staff the duty watches over Christmas break. These folks were often rewarded with time in lieu as compensation. It's a failure of leadership to put someone on duty when you know they're on leave, and then expect them to sort it out. Leaders are responsible for personnel management based on available resources. Annotating a duty watch on a member's leave pass is abdicating one's responsibility as a leader.



My reward for holding the phone for the week after New Year's (even though I'm not on any duty list -- I volunteered) is gratitude.   ;D

Of course, I'm sure I would get reimbursed my leave if I get called in to work and that's just fine.  I've been to other units where we've done this when Holiday duties didn't include manning the duty centre 24/7.


----------



## Halifax Tar (3 Dec 2011)

recceguy said:
			
		

> *I know it's not the case*, but this whole episode makes the Navy look like selfish, incompetent idiots.
> 
> Too much time on Centennials, executive curls and name changes to take care of the troops, would be the guess of many.



Recceguy I see your point. But I have to say I have seen some pretty similar things go on in the Army. 

Not starting a bun fight but I think its a bit unfair that the Navy gets singled out when we all know full well each element has its way at times.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (4 Dec 2011)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Recceguy I see your point. But I have to say I have seen some pretty similar things go on in the Army.
> 
> Not starting a bun fight but I think its a bit unfair that the Navy gets singled out when we all know full well each element has its way at times.



However, this thread is about how the Navy, or some part of it, operates so let's not try deflect the conversation. Especially , since most Army people participating have shown that this is not the way we do it.

There is no doubt, that on the face of it, there are some serious problems with the way some of your boats and ships operate.


----------



## armyvern (4 Dec 2011)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Recceguy I see your point. But I have to say I have seen some pretty similar things go on in the Army.
> 
> Not starting a bun fight but I think its a bit unfair that the Navy gets singled out when we all know full well each element has its way at times.



The Navy had this same issue 22 years ago when I served with them wrt tossing people on duty when they were already on authorized leave during the holiday period. The tendancy by them to actually include a statement on a "CF 100 LEAVE *AUTHORIZATION*" (that IS it's official name!!) denoting that the mbr themselves needs to find a replacement if they get tossed on duty after that same said leave pass is signed as "authorized leave beginning on date X and ending on date Y" ... tells me that this is systemic wrt the HMCS that we are talking about and that, despite growing older, they haven't moved very far forward wrt this particular issue.


----------



## aesop081 (4 Dec 2011)

As i am finding out these days, the RCN has unique ways of doing certain things that usually defy logic. While i think the situation is wrong, i don't think the OP will win this one and continue to enjoy life afterwards.


----------



## Stoker (4 Dec 2011)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> The Navy had this same issue 22 years ago when I served with them wrt tossing people on duty when they were already on authorized leave during the holiday period. The tendancy by them to actually include a statement on a "CF 100 LEAVE *AUTHORIZATION*" (that IS it's official name!!) denoting that the mbr themselves needs to find a replacement if they get tossed on duty after that same said leave pass is signed as "authorized leave beginning on date X and ending on date Y" ... tells me that this is systemic wrt the HMCS that we are talking about and that, despite growing older, they haven't moved very far forward wrt this particular issue.



Its obvious that when you did serve with the navy 22 years ago you're experience with them was less than ideal, I assure you that most ships do not fuc*k over the mbr. We're taking this kid to his word that this actually happened. In my experience what he/she said and what actually happened is often quite different. If this did indeed happen fine, it looks like Pat in Halifax has looked into this and probably has it straightened out. I'm sure bone head things do not only happen in the navy and is not a reflection of the navy as a whole.


----------



## Sub_Guy (4 Dec 2011)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Not starting a bun fight but I think its a bit unfair that the Navy gets singled out when we all know full well each element has its way at times.



I can honestly say all my "only in the RCAF" comments are never in a negative context.

But in my years spent in the Navy I never experienced anything as ridiculous as what the OP is experiencing.  4 ships and a sub, and I never experienced any holiday duty watch issues like this, I also never had to find my own duty watch replacement for the holiday period.  Leave over the holidays was sorted out prior to the duty watch list being out, and the days of 24,25,31 and 1 were usually volunteers.


----------



## Harris (4 Dec 2011)

I wonder if the leave issues mentioned throughout the thread are somewhat dependant on the rank of the aggrieved?  Certainly in my own experience the higher up the chain I got the less I had leave issues.


----------



## armyvern (4 Dec 2011)

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Its obvious that when you did serve with the navy 22 years ago you're experience with them was less than ideal, I assure you that most ships do not fuc*k over the mbr. We're taking this kid to his word that this actually happened. In my experience what he/she said and what actually happened is often quite different. If this did indeed happen fine, it looks like Pat in Halifax has looked into this and probably has it straightened out. I'm sure bone head things do not only happen in the navy and is not a reflection of the navy as a whole.



Oh, I'm quite sure that my experience wasn't unique ... my father was a sea-hardened Naval man on that same coast. My brother is also on that coast currently. 

It seems that some HMCS' still practice such as demonstrated by the inclusion of the caveat on their CF100s (if the situation isn't normal for that particular Unit, why the need to include that statement??) - that's telling in and of itself.

Glad though that PatinHalifax stepped in. Sad though that he actually had to.


----------



## winnipegoo7 (4 Dec 2011)

Good day, I didn't expect to get so many replies.  My main concern was to know what my rights were and why things are done the way they are done.   I didn't intend for my previous post to sound like an emergency.

Things on my ship are run pretty well compared to the rest of the fleet, I think.  The holiday duty watch schedule was released around 20 November, I am duty 2 Jan and I also volunteered to stand duty 11 Jan for a mbr who will be out of area for the holidays. The leave period is 17 Dec to 13 Jan.  We were instructed to use all annual leave by the end of the year and also told that this is our last leave period this year due to our schedule.  I have 8 days annual remaining. My ship is away but I am on course so I have been making leave arrangements by email. I requested 3 leave passes. 1st before my first duty, 2nd between the duties and the 3rd for 13 Jan so all my annual would be used.  I received an email saying that it had to be all on 1 leave pass, so I replied saying that I shouldn't be on leave and on duty the same day, my boss then replied that he would attempt to put in 3 leave passes. My plan is to go home during the 1st leave pass. 

I just wanted to know my rights and I think you all have answered them.
Thanks


----------



## George Wallace (4 Dec 2011)

winnipegoo7 said:
			
		

> Good day, I didn't expect to get so many replies.  My main concern was to know what my rights were and why things are done the way they are done.   I didn't intend for my previous post to sound like an emergency.
> 
> Things on my ship are run pretty well compared to the rest of the fleet, I think.  The holiday duty watch schedule was released around 20 November, I am duty 2 Jan and I also volunteered to stand duty 11 Jan for a mbr who will be out of area for the holidays. The leave period is 17 Dec to 13 Jan.  We were instructed to use all annual leave by the end of the year and also told that this is our last leave period this year due to our schedule.  I have 8 days annual remaining. My ship is away but I am on course so I have been making leave arrangements by email. I requested 3 leave passes. 1st before my first duty, 2nd between the duties and the 3rd for 13 Jan so all my annual would be used.  I received an email saying that it had to be all on 1 leave pass, so I replied saying that I shouldn't be on leave and on duty the same day, my boss then replied that he would attempt to put in 3 leave passes. My plan is to go home during the 1st leave pass.
> 
> ...



Interesting that your "boss" seems to have the idea that you must submit only one (1) Leave Pass.  In recent years, every unit I have been in has insisted on at least two (2).  One (1) to cover the Leave being used prior to the end of the Current Calendar Year, and one (1) to cover the Leave in the New Calendar Year.  I would say that your unit/Ship would most likely have a similar policy.  At the same time, if you do have a Duty over a Leave Period, there is a form that one can fill out to have that Leave Period/Day cancelled and reinstated as unused so as not to penalize you the member in any way.  It looks to me that your boss is lacking in experience in these matters.


----------



## aesop081 (4 Dec 2011)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> In recent years, every unit I have been in has insisted on at least two (2).  One (1) to cover the Leave being used prior to the end of the Current Calendar Year, and one (1) to cover the Leave in the New Calendar Year.



A policy that is equally retarded.


----------



## armyvern (4 Dec 2011)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> A policy that is equally retarded.



Agreed.


----------



## medicineman (4 Dec 2011)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> A policy that is equally retarded.



Especially since they're all from the same leave year...

MM


----------



## Fishbone Jones (4 Dec 2011)

Way to go George! : We had the Navy on the ropes  Then you decide to make your part of the Army look silly also :facepalm:
Silly, silly man :brickwall:


----------



## dapaterson (4 Dec 2011)

Part of the "Two Leave Passes over Christmas" is because someone, somewhere, has declared that you can only have two short days on a single pass.  Since some places grant three stat, two special and four short over the Christmas / New Years period, two passes are reqeusted.  Of course, the restricton is 48 hours of short leave in a month, so as long as the short days appear as 2 in December, 2 in January, there shouldn't be a problem...


----------



## Pusser (4 Dec 2011)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Interesting that your "boss" seems to have the idea that you must submit only one (1) Leave Pass.  In recent years, every unit I have been in has insisted on at least two (2).  One (1) to cover the Leave being used prior to the end of the Current Calendar Year, and one (1) to cover the Leave in the New Calendar Year.  I would say that your unit/Ship would most likely have a similar policy.  At the same time, if you do have a Duty over a Leave Period, there is a form that one can fill out to have that Leave Period/Day cancelled and reinstated as unused so as not to penalize you the member in any way.  It looks to me that your boss is lacking in experience in these matters.



Actually, this is not as retarded as one might think.  On the surface, there is no reason to have one leave pass for one calendar year and another for the next, because December and January are always in the same fiscal/leave year.  HOWEVER, if the CO wishes to grant four days Short Leave, he can only do it if he/she is granting two in December and two in January (i.e. CO can only issue two days Short Leave per calendar month).  I'm not convinced it's absolutely necessary to use two leave passes in this scenario, but that is usually how it's done and seems to make the auditors happier (i.e. four days Short on one leave pass seems to raise red flags).

In terms of all the finger pointing here at the RCN, I have to say that I think this boils down to individual units and although not limited (it seems) to one ship, I can certainly say that I have never experienced problems like this in all my years on both coasts, so I hardly think it is a universal Navy problem.  I can also say with first hand experience that no one service, element, unit, formation etc, anywhere in the CF has a monopoly on bonehead moves or doing it right.  I can think of a number of situations where I've observed the Army through my Navy-coloured glasses with amazement and thought to myself, "no wonder the Army's p*ssed off!"  The fact is, everybody needs to do a better job sometimes.  

For the record, for three years in a row, before we had kids, my wife and I both volunteered to stand duty (in my case) or work (she worked at the hospital) on Christmas Day so that others could go home or be with their kids.  We simply expected (and were not disappointed) that others would do the same when our turn came up.


----------



## Monsoon (4 Dec 2011)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Part of the "Two Leave Passes over Christmas" is because someone, somewhere, has declared that you can only have two short days on a single pass.  Since some places grant three stat, two special and four short over the Christmas / New Years period, two passes are reqeusted.  Of course, the restricton is 48 hours of short leave in a month, so as long as the short days appear as 2 in December, 2 in January, there shouldn't be a problem...


The "somewhere" is the CF Leave Manual, chapter 9 (http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pd/lea-con/doc/cflpm-mprcfc-eng.pdf) and the restrictions are, "Short leave shall not be granted:"

" - More often than once each month;
" - For a period in excess of 48 hours;
" - Consecutively with any other period of short leave; and
" - In conjunction with retirement leave."

Arguably, the third restriction could be interpreted to mean that two sets of short leave can't be granted in the same leave period, even if the period straddles two months; alternately, it could just mean that you can't grant the last two days of one month and the first two days of the next month as short. Some units try to get around the issue by dividing Christmas/New Year's leave into two separate leave passes, but to my mind that doesn't really change the fact that it's one "leave period" (unless you're working in between the two).

If a unit CO thinks there's any legitimacy in the former interpretation of the policy, all they're doing by submittng two leave passes is trying to break the rules in a way that the leave clerk won't notice. The right thing to do if they don't buy that interpretation is for them to submit single leave passes with two non-adjacent sets of short leave and take the argument up directly with the BAdmO/OR IC/RSM/etc.


----------



## CountDC (5 Dec 2011)

hamiltongs you have nailed it the way it was at one unit I was with here in Ottawa.  You got 2 days short for the entire period and breaking it into 2 leave passes didn't change anything.  It was still viewed as consecutive leave periods and not allowed.  My understanding was that they had checked with the leave gods and that was the answer they received.


----------



## SevenSixTwo (19 Jun 2012)

Sorry to ressurect a thread but figured it was approriate to post here.

Statutory Holiday weekends. How does it work for these if you have been given a non operational (non punishment) duty over a statutory holiday long weekend in which, your CF-100 states no such duty and that you are allowed to travel to the location listed (over 1500km away).


----------



## dogger1936 (19 Jun 2012)

SevenSixTwo said:
			
		

> Sorry to ressurect a thread but figured it was approriate to post here.
> 
> Statutory Holiday weekends. How does it work for these if you have been given a non operational (non punishment) duty over a statutory holiday long weekend in which, your CF-100 states no such duty and that you are allowed to travel to the location listed (over 1500km away).



Talk to your peer's see if anyone is in the area to take your duty. Fill out appropriate paperwork for change of duty if applicable. Talk to your SSM.


----------



## Disenchantedsailor (19 Jun 2012)

Well there's 2 ways to look at this.  The first is of course to see if a buddy will cover off for you, the other is (specifically if your leave pass was authorized by the CO/Delegate before routine orders was published) Is to force the units hand and have them recall you from leave.  That requires CO's involvement and is unlikely.  My 2 cents.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (20 Jun 2012)

My  :2c: is that they CAN'T  put you on duty after your leave pass is signed, until the CO cancels your leave.

If you are on leave, you are on leave.


----------



## PMedMoe (20 Jun 2012)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> My  :2c: is that they CAN'T  put you on duty after your leave pass is signed, until the CO cancels your leave.
> 
> If you are on leave, you are on leave.



You'd like to think so, wouldn't you?  But I've carried a duty phone while on leave.......


----------



## Disenchantedsailor (20 Jun 2012)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> You'd like to think so, wouldn't you?  But I've carried a duty phone while on leave.......


Shouldn't the QR&O state specifically that you cannot be both on duty and leave at the same time (this has been clarified but multiple JAG,s and presiding officers at summary trials)


----------



## agc (20 Jun 2012)

Leave policy manual:



> Section 2.7 Withholding and Recall From Leave
> 
> 2.7.01 Policy
> 
> ...



QR&O 16.01:



> 16.01 - WITHHOLDING OF AND RECALL FROM LEAVE
> 
> (1) Leave may be withheld from an officer or non-commissioned member only when there is a military requirement to do so.
> 
> ...


----------



## Eye In The Sky (20 Jun 2012)

Well, to me, it really is that simple.  You can not be on leave and on duty at the same time.  If you have a signed leave pass and 2 days later someone tries to put you on duty, they have 2 choices.  Cancel your leave, or put someone else on duty.

This whole idea of people having signed leave passes, and then being put on duty and it being _their_ problem is right out of 'er.   Its a lack of leadership and decision making with any amount of common sense and consideration of the mbr and, IMO, speaks volumes as to the CofC's GAFF towards their people.


----------



## PMedMoe (20 Jun 2012)

I completely agree, but it's too late for me to get the time back now.  That's why I leave early on Fridays.   ;D


----------



## CountDC (20 Jun 2012)

Was it one of those duties posted in RO's?   Use to be that you could either contact the person responsible for the duty list, advise them you were on leave and they would pick the next person on the list or your section could find someone else for the duty and pass on the name.


----------



## PMedMoe (20 Jun 2012)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Was it one of those duties posted in RO's?   Use to be that you could either contact the person responsible for the duty list, advise them you were on leave and they would pick the next person on the list or your section could find someone else for the duty and pass on the name.



Nope.  Over the Christmas/New Year's leave period, the B Surg wanted a PMed to be on call.   :

There was only two of us, so we split the duty and only had the phone turned on from 0800-1600 M-F with the exception of the stat holidays.

When I got posted back there as a Sgt, I got rid of the PMed duty phone.   >


----------



## Eye In The Sky (20 Jun 2012)

Problem solved!   ;D

Did you get ES for "leading change" that PER season?   >


----------



## PMedMoe (20 Jun 2012)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Problem solved!   ;D
> 
> Did you get ES for "leading change" that PER season?   >



I don't recall.  I did get promoted the next year.....   ;D


----------



## SevenSixTwo (20 Jun 2012)

Sort of a difficult situation because my CoC holds onto the CF100's until 30 minutes before leave begins. Told the person in charge of the duty roster today and explained how last stat holiday weekend I was on duty and was told it was because I wasn't going anywhere. This time I AM going home and still have duties.


----------



## aesop081 (20 Jun 2012)

let me guess, you are in the Navy ?


----------



## SevenSixTwo (20 Jun 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> let me guess, you are in the Navy ?



Sorry, but the discredit goes to the army this time.


----------



## aesop081 (20 Jun 2012)

SevenSixTwo said:
			
		

> Sorry, but the discredit goes to the army this time.



I'm suitably surprised.


----------



## dogger1936 (20 Jun 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I'm suitably surprised.



I'm not. This was an issue when I was back at the regiment. Only with certain groups. The admin Sgt should have got the duty roster months ago; and most likely didn't do his job with picking someone a few weeks ago and notifying them.

Leadership fail, no one will fry for it anymore being half the trouble.


----------



## aesop081 (20 Jun 2012)

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> I'm not.



It is something i expect from the Navy more than anything else. If anything, the last year has caused me to develop a significant loathing for some of the Navy's "methods".


----------



## jeffb (20 Jun 2012)

SevenSixTwo said:
			
		

> Sort of a difficult situation because my CoC holds onto the CF100's until 30 minutes before leave begins. Told the person in charge of the duty roster today and explained how last stat holiday weekend I was on duty and was told it was because I wasn't going anywhere. This time I AM going home and still have duties.



Have you spoken to your supervisor about this yet? Every leave period there is always someone who has a duty/leave conflict. Frankly, sometimes I miss it when processing a Bty's worth of leave but it always gets delt with before they go on leave if they bring it up. Leave is leave and is there for a reason. As with most things in this army, if you haven't brought it to the attention of your CoC yet, you can't really expect the situation to take care of itself.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (20 Jun 2012)

SevenSixTwo said:
			
		

> Sort of a difficult situation because my CoC holds onto the CF100's until 30 minutes before leave begins. Told the person in charge of the duty roster today and explained how last stat holiday weekend I was on duty and was told it was because I wasn't going anywhere. This time I AM going home and still have duties.



IF your Leave Pass is signed, its signed, regardless of if your CofC has given it to you or not.

Jesus christ, there are some retarded issues in the CF these days.  Some of our leaders are right out of 'er.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (20 Jun 2012)

jeffb said:
			
		

> Have you spoken to your supervisor immediate superior(s) about this yet?



FTFY.  Supervisor is (should be atleast...) a term for "your boss at Swiss Chalet or Walmart".


----------



## aesop081 (20 Jun 2012)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> FTFY.  Supervisor is (should be atleast...) a term for "your boss at Swiss Chalet or Walmart".



You would have an aneurism where i work then.


----------



## SevenSixTwo (20 Jun 2012)

Yes, I have talked to my immediate CoC. Apparently, this is how they've been doing it for years here. People doing duty during leave that is with no note of it on the CF-100.


----------



## Monsoon (20 Jun 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> It is something i expect from the Navy more than anything else. If anything, the last year has caused me to develop a significant loathing for some of the Navy's "methods".


Hmmm. In the course of 15 years in the Navy I've never had a bad leave pass experience. Maybe (and I'm just shooting in the dark here) your year with the Navy hasn't exposed you to enough of it to pass judgements on the entire institution on the basis of a single unit. But hey, what do I know?


----------



## aesop081 (20 Jun 2012)

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> Hmmm. In the course of 15 years in the Navy I've never had a bad leave pass experience. Maybe (and I'm just shooting in the dark here) your year with the Navy hasn't exposed you to enough of it to pass judgements on the entire institution on the basis of a single unit. But hey, what do I know?



I refer you to the original post in this thread. Up until this recent post, i thought only the Navy would approve leave and then tell the guy he has duty watch in the middle of it and that it is his problem. Not the first instance of this i hear. I was, however, wrong.

Leave is leave.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that your experience with leave passes is going to be somewhat different than it is going to be for the lower-deckers.


----------



## Monsoon (21 Jun 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that your experience with leave passes is going to be somewhat different than it is going to be for the lower-deckers.


It would have been more or less the same when I was a JR, but maybe things have changed.


----------



## CountDC (21 Jun 2012)

but on the other side I would have been surprised if it had been navy as when I was with the ship we made them have all the leave passes in by the beginning of Dec for the holidays.  Can't say for all but at least some of the other ships had the same policy.  Waiting until 30 minutes prior to leave start just doesn't work.  How did they even do that?  Leave is for the full day so that means they would have to give it to you at 2330 the prior day.  

They have done it for years and they have been wrong for years but they are not the only ones.  Sometimes it is not even a unit thing but something done at a lower level.  Sometimes it is a matter that no one has ever bucked the system not wanting to cause waves.  Funny thing is usually when these reach the CO level they are thankful for someone pointing out the error with a solution and wonder why no one has in the past (except with the navy ships which is a world on its own ;D).


----------



## Pusser (3 Jul 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I refer you to the original post in this thread. Up until this recent post, i thought only the Navy would approve leave and then tell the guy he has duty watch in the middle of it and that it is his problem. Not the first instance of this i hear. I was, however, wrong.
> 
> Leave is leave.
> 
> I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that your experience with leave passes is going to be somewhat different than it is going to be for the lower-deckers.



I've got almost 30 bad-leave-experience-free years to look back on, so I would have to believe that your experience is unique.  And I draw not only on my own experience, but that of my subordinates as well.  In fact, my experience has always been that we have gone to great lengths to ensure conflicts are sorted in advance and everyone gets a chance to take their leave without worrying about duty watches.  The only time I have seen any problems is when a leave request comes in after the duty rotation has been published (which is usually well known weeks ahead of time, especially at Christmas).


----------



## ModlrMike (3 Jul 2012)

Perhaps an easier way to deal with this is to roll out the duty schedule bundled with the holiday leave instruction. Give troops the opportunity to mix and match as long as all duties are covered.


----------



## armyvern (4 Jul 2012)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> You'd like to think so, wouldn't you?  But I've carried a duty phone while on leave.......



Too f'n funny; I carry a crackberry 365 days of the year and I'm not allowed to ignore it. Does that mean that I'm on duty all the time during my evenings, weekends, leave etc all year round? My own personal electronic leash. I'd love to be in a position that actually stood any "duty" anywhere ... that way I could officially ignore the crackberry and get some damn work done. :blotto:


----------



## armyvern (4 Jul 2012)

Not_So_Arty_Newbie said:
			
		

> Shouldn't the QR&O state specifically that you cannot be both on duty and leave at the same time (this has been clarified but multiple JAG,s and presiding officers at summary trials)



Totally different situation here. Many of us are one-ofs and carry electronic leashes or duty phones either ALL the time (as I do) or lots of times when in very small and specialized work cells (PMeds, PAOs etc etc). This becomes more common the higher in rank one rises.

The carrying of those phones actually enables us to be away from the place of work and out of the geographical area (on leave, home to our family on weekends etc). If something occurs that I can not handle via crackberry, then I WOULD be re-imbursed my travel expenses etc that were incurred as a result of actually having to be recall back into my geographical work area from my home and family in Montreal on the weekend etc.

If I did not have that phone ... I'd be stuck in Kingston 365 and 24/7 as a one-of "on duty".

Quite like standing weapons vault duties in Gagetown when I was of much lower rank. Only two pers are authorized access and thus stood duty every second week year round. Could not leave the geographical area. At least with a crackberry, you could go shopping and not have to sit in your house awaiting the dreaded phonecalls to report in to the vault (issues, returns, power outtages, sounding alarm, alarm malfunctions etc) in to work --- that you just knew were coming. As far as I am aware, the vault pers (all two of them) still do not have a crackberry/duty phone) ... I pity them as that means they are at home, in their house, waiting for the call to come (they must respond within an hour of a notification). 

Wow: wouldn't it be awesome to be them, On duty AND with a duty phone?? That way, the one guy wouldn't have to sit in his house for three weeks straight awaiting phone calls about the vault when his vault buddy was out of the area burning his summer annual (or Christmas annual) off for example.

Context is a great thing rather than blanket generalities when it comes to "duties".


----------



## SupersonicMax (4 Jul 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> If I did not have that phone ... I'd be stuck in Kingston 365 and 24/7 as a one-of "on duty".



It makes me wonder how things were happening 10 years ago....  Cell phones did not always exist.  

I am someone that believes that people that are bound by the Blackberry are doing it to themselves, so to speak.


----------



## PMedMoe (4 Jul 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> The carrying of those phones actually enables us to be away from the place of work and out of the geographical area (on leave, home to our family on weekends etc).



Vern, difference is, I was _not_ allowed out of the area while I had the duty phone.  But was considered "on leave" at the same time.   :


----------



## George Wallace (4 Jul 2012)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> It makes me wonder how things were happening 10 years ago....  Cell phones did not always exist.
> 
> I am someone that believes that people that are bound by the Blackberry are doing it to themselves, so to speak.



Max


You have a faulty memory.  Ten (10) years ago, 2002, we did have cell phones in fairly large numbers.  In fact, while at 1 Can Div HQ, I carried a cell phone in 1989.  Granted, it looked almost as large as a "Walkie Talkie" out of a WW II movie, but it was still a mobile phone.  

I do not know what all the fuss is in this topic.  For the most part Duty for Christmas Lve, Summer Lve Blocks, etc. was all known well in advance and volunteers were requested.  When not enough numbers of volunteers became a concern, then those who remained in the Unit "Area" would be tasked, and provided a waiver form that reimbursed them that day of Lve.  If that was still not enough to rectify the need for Duty personnel, then Lve would be revoked for some.  Remember, one of the conditions that one has with the LVE PASS is the it can be CANCELLED at any time.  Having it physically in your hand, does not give you 100% guarantee that you can and will go on Lve.


----------



## aesop081 (4 Jul 2012)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> It makes me wonder how things were happening 10 years ago....  Cell phones did not always exist.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## SupersonicMax (4 Jul 2012)

CDN Aviator,

Believe me, I know what "being on duty" is.  I am carrying a pager as we speak...  And I am taking a day off for being in the QRA over a Sunday.

What I am talking about is Blackberry and smart phones.  10 years ago their use was not widespread as it is now and the CF were not using them.  They should be  used in case of emergency or operational necessity only, after working hours (whatever that may be for that day).  I can't see ANY position in the CF needing to be reachable 24/7/365(6).  That's why there are people on duty, acting position.  Delegation of responsibility and decisional power is something that, with the years, the CF became adverse to.


----------



## captloadie (4 Jul 2012)

Try telling a CO who has lost a unit member in an accident, or other circumstances that he doesn't need to be notified immediately, regardless of what time it is or where he is.


----------



## George Wallace (4 Jul 2012)

Just a side track, or perhaps not:

Max

It sounds a bit like you are advocating that "all" Duty pers be given pagers or cell phones and allowed to physically be somewhere other than within Unit Lines.

How many Secure Areas, alarmed or not, are there in your unit?  No need to answer, just think about it.  Someone with a 'crackberry' on Lve halfway across the country will not be able to reasonably respond to a call should their physical presence be required.  From past experience, I have received numerous calls, while not on "DUTY" to come in and reset alarms with the MPs due to them being set off by humidity or rodents or some other malfunction.  What about Wpns Vaults during a prolonged power outage?  Who are going to be the first to react to secure those facilities?  This is the military.  We do have some very serious responsibility in what we are safeguarding.   We do not have Bns of MPs to do it all.

CDN Aviator and many others can attest to the fact that Duties today involve far less people than they did twenty or thirty years ago, and even then much less than fifty years ago.  Those pers all had to be physically on location at the place of Duty.  Whining about doing Duty, no matter what time of year it may be, is just that; whining.


----------



## Ostrozac (4 Jul 2012)

captloadie said:
			
		

> Try telling a CO who has lost a unit member in an accident, or other circumstances that he doesn't need to be notified immediately, regardless of what time it is or where he is.



Commanding Officers still go scuba diving, fly commercially, go on cruises, and canoe in Algonquin Park, all places where there is no cell phone coverage. The Duty Officer, or DCO, or Ops O can find him in a reasonable period of time, but not necessarily immediately. The previous post about delegation and actually havng people go on leave -- meaning disappear from work for a while -- I think is a valid point.


----------



## ModlrMike (4 Jul 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I do not know what all the fuss is in this topic.  For the most part Duty for Christmas Lve, Summer Lve Blocks, etc. was all known well in advance and volunteers were requested.  When not enough numbers of volunteers became a concern, then those who remained in the Unit "Area" would be tasked, and provided a waiver form that reimbursed them that day of Lve.  If that was still not enough to rectify the need for Duty personnel, then Lve would be revoked for some.  Remember, one of the conditions that one has with the LVE PASS is the it can be CANCELLED at any time.  Having it physically in your hand, does not give you 100% guarantee that you can and will go on Lve.




If that were the issue then I'd agree with you. It seems, however that the leave passes are approved, and then the duty list promulgated. That's putting the cart before the horse in my book. I think for block/summer/Christmas leave the duty schedule should be rolled out before the leave instruction. That way the troops can sort themselves out before there's all this angst over cancelled/amended leave passes.


----------



## George Wallace (4 Jul 2012)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> If that were the issue then I'd agree with you. It seems, however that the leave passes are approved, and then the duty list promulgated. That's putting the cart before the horse in my book. I think for block/summer/Christmas leave the duty schedule should be rolled out before the leave instruction. That way the troops can sort themselves out before there's all this angst over cancelled/amended leave passes.



Then this REFLECTS POORLY on your Chain of Command.   Nothing else.  If they are the problem, then it is them, not the System.


----------



## aesop081 (4 Jul 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Then this REFLECTS POORLY on your Chain of Command.   Nothing else.  If they are the problem, then it is them, not the System.



Welcome to the original post.


----------



## SupersonicMax (4 Jul 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Max
> 
> It sounds a bit like you are advocating that "all" Duty pers be given pagers or cell phones and allowed to physically be somewhere other than within Unit Lines.



Not what I am advocating.  I stand alert more than once a week, and understand the reasons.  Some positions require some immediate/quick posturing.  Having said that, there should be a cadre of personnel able to fulfill those duties, so that it's not always the same person on duty, over and over.  



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> From past experience, I have received numerous calls, while not on "DUTY" to come in and reset alarms with the MPs due to them being set off by humidity or rodents or some other malfunction.  What about Wpns Vaults during a prolonged power outage?  Who are going to be the first to react to secure those facilities?  This is the military.  We do have some very serious responsibility in what we are safeguarding.   We do not have Bns of MPs to do it all.



As I said, you should not have been the only one able/allowed to carry out those functions.  Yes, carrying a pager after hours/on week ends is fine.  I do, couple of times a week.  I even call that a week end day for myself and don't count it as time on duty. Until I am recalled.

For your example, as far as I know, there are always a couple of MPs on duty at a base.  Why can't those guys react to secure the facilities?


----------



## George Wallace (4 Jul 2012)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Not what I am advocating.  I stand alert more than once a week, and understand the reasons.  Some positions require some immediate/quick posturing.  Having said that, there should be a cadre of personnel able to fulfill those duties, so that it's not always the same person on duty, over and over.



For the most part, that is exactly what the Duty Personnel, as listed in Routine Orders, are supposed to do.  If your unit does not have a person creating the Duty List who is evenly spreading out the duties amongst all the members of the unit, that is an internal problem of poor leadership.



			
				SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> As I said, you should not have been the only one able/allowed to carry out those functions.  Yes, carrying a pager after hours/on week ends is fine.  I do, couple of times a week.  I even call that a week end day for myself and don't count it as time on duty. Until I am recalled.



There are secondary duties and "Recall Lists" in the majority of CF Units.  Some of these Lists are forwarded, for example: to the MPs on a regular basis (weekly, monthly, semi-annual, etc.) depending on their 'importance' so that the MPs will have a list of whom to call in case of an incident.  In my case, I was on that list to be called in in the event of an alarm.  I was not the only one on that list, but apparently the only on they could reach or only one they felt was reliable enough to come in.  



			
				SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> For your example, as far as I know, there are always a couple of MPs on duty at a base.  Why can't those guys react to secure the facilities?



If you look into this further, you will find that it is only the MPs job to secure a site initially.  It is the Unit overall responsibility to secure it after that.  Are there enough MPs on duty, on recall and off duty, to secure every wpn vault and Secure or Highly Sensitive area on your Base, surrounding Reserve Units, etc. in case of a long term power outage?  I highly doubt it.  Refer back to my comment on what the MPs are responsible for and what the Unit responsibility is.  If necessary, a unit may have to recall people from Lve to secure CF locations, be it Christmas or not.


----------



## SupersonicMax (4 Jul 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> For the most part, that is exactly what the Duty Personnel, as listed in Routine Orders, are supposed to do.  If your unit does not have a person creating the Duty List who is evenly spreading out the duties amongst all the members of the unit, that is an internal problem of poor leadership.



I wasn't complaining.  This is standard for everybody.  1-2 times a week holding alert.  



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> There are secondary duties and "Recall Lists" in the majority of CF Units.  Some of these Lists are forwarded, for example: to the MPs on a regular basis (weekly, monthly, semi-annual, etc.) depending on their 'importance' so that the MPs will have a list of whom to call in case of an incident.  In my case, I was on that list to be called in in the event of an alarm.  I was not the only one on that list, but apparently the only on they could reach or only one they felt was reliable enough to come in.



Not a single person in the CF is so important that he cannot go on leave for 2 weeks outside the geographical area. 

Good leaders will have redundancy in their operations.  If you were the only one they could reach or only one they felt was reliable enough to come in, there are greater problems within your organization.  The burden of a duty should not be put on a single person's shoulders.



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> If you look into this further, you will find that it is only the MPs job to secure a site initially.  It is the Unit overall responsibility to secure it after that.  Are there enough MPs on duty, on recall and off duty, to secure every wpn vault and Secure or Highly Sensitive area on your Base, surrounding Reserve Units, etc. in case of a long term power outage?  I highly doubt it.  Refer back to my comment on what the MPs are responsible for and what the Unit responsibility is.  If necessary, a unit may have to recall people from Lve to secure CF locations, be it Christmas or not.



Statistically it will not happen very often, thus making it "an emergency".  In which case, the whole base or at least good part of it, would probably be recalled.  It doesn't mean that everybody should be on the edge all the time to be recalled, just in case there is an emergency.  Life must go on. Plans and daily operations need to be tailored around facts of life and entitlements (ie: leave).  

Yes, recalls from leave happen. Not regularly.  You cannot plan your daily operations on the assumption that WW3/Asteroid impacting the Earth will happen.


----------



## armyvern (4 Jul 2012)

Max,

I can assure you that certain functions require specialized courses and authorities; some are even trade specific and can not be delegated down ... contraire to your statement. Some of us also work in operational 48hr NTM Units. Many posns are "one ofs" - perhaps you do not understand that one on means exactly that - one of. My Tfc tech can not delegate down signing off of a hazmat carf for transport on an aircraft for example to an op location that is departing immediately. Just one of many situations that are routine where I am at.

I can also assure you that that fact has nothing to do with the crackberry era ... I had to call in LPO authorities (for example) MANY times while on DST to sign for AOG and/or IOR procurement to occur.

Years ago, we'd have all kinds of duty pers sitting at their desk or linked in by pagers after hours. Now we have fewer pers actually being required to stand duties.

I don't expect a Duty WO or Duty O will be delegated down authority to 32, 33, or 34 anytime soon (just as one example) because that is simply against TB regulations.

We don't all work in perfect worlds with redundant personnel sitting around with all the quals to do all necessary tasks that hit us constantly. That duty person would then simply end up recalling all of us in to the workplace to exercise the authority on-site - this blackberry world allows us to do that from "wherever, whenever" to make things happen.

Thanks for looking out for me, but no thanks. I'll stick with my crackberry thank you very much.


(For Moe:  Yeah, but as you've already posted in this thread - you leave work every Friday at lunch time in compensation ... while not on leave. There's this old saying: "pick your poison"  ).


----------



## PMedMoe (4 Jul 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> (For Moe:  Yeah, but as you've already posted in this thread - you leave work every Friday at lunch time in compensation ... while not on leave. There's this old saying: "pick your poison"  ).



I wasn't using my being on duty while on leave to excuse my actions now, just as an example that it does indeed happen, contrary to what others think (or have/haven't experienced).

As far as my leaving "early", I do PT on my own time and only take about 20 minutes for lunch daily.  Until one of my supervisors tells me otherwise, I will continue to leave at the time I do.


----------



## SupersonicMax (4 Jul 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Max,
> 
> Many posns are "one ofs" - perhaps you do not understand that one on means exactly that - one of. My Tfc tech can not delegate down signing off of a hazmat carf for transport on an aircraft for example to an op location that is departing immediately. Just one of many situations that are routine where I am at.



I don't buy that....  The course/qual is SO cosmic that only 1 gifted individual can have it?  I don't think so.  



			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I don't expect a Duty WO or Duty O will be delegated down authority to 32, 33, or 34 anytime soon (just as one example) because that is simply against TB regulations.



There are more than 1 guy/gal allowed to sign section 32/33/34s in a unit...



			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> this blackberry world allows us to do that from "wherever, whenever" to make things happen.



At the expense of very valuable quality of life to the members.  Unsat.  I get it, it is useful for some stuff.  Not for being able to reach you 24/7 for whatever routine task.



			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> We don't all work in perfect worlds with redundant personnel sitting around with all the quals to do all necessary tasks that hit us constantly. That duty person would then simply end up recalling all of us in to the workplace to exercise the authority on-site



Neither do I, but we (as a unit) learnt to live without some people and wait until they are back to accomplish tasks that are not an emergency or an absolute operational necessity.



			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Thanks for looking out for me, but no thanks. I'll stick with my crackberry thank you very much.



I don't mind people that do that to themselves, although I believe that there is a time and place for Blackberries, I also think it has gone too far.  If you are willing to be on that quasi 24/7/365(6) shift with your BB, by all mean...  But don't complain that you are on the "leash".  Until your boss actually orders you to have the device 24/7 on and ready to come in to work... Then it's an other discussion... About leadership.


----------



## armyvern (4 Jul 2012)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I wasn't using my being on duty while on leave to excuse my actions now, just as an example that it does indeed happen, contrary to what others think (or have/haven't experienced).
> 
> As far as my leaving "early", I do PT on my own time and only take about 20 minutes for lunch daily.  Until one of my supervisors tells me otherwise, I will continue to leave at the time I do.



I wasn't using you as a specific example in my original post although I did use your trade (and PAOs) as examples of small, specialized cells of people.

Either way, it's neither here nor there.

I eagerly await the day though when we see a thread started on this site by someone "complaining about the extra perks or time off they're getting". I'm not holding my breath waiting though. If there's one thing that hasn't changed in the CF during my career, it's the fact that bitching by the troops will occur always when they believe they've been shafted a day of their leave etc, but they sure as hell don't bitch when they get freebee time off nor do they say, "but the leave manual and regulations say you _must_ fill out a leave pass for me for that day if I am to be absent".

Suspect it will be the same 25 years from now too.


----------



## armyvern (4 Jul 2012)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I don't buy that....  The course/qual is SO cosmic that only 1 gifted individual can have it?  I don't think so.
> 
> There are more than 1 guy/gal allowed to sign section 32/33/34s in a unit...
> 
> ...



Come on down Max and be our Duty O instead of an asshat.

You can sit in my posn answering to the CO, CANOSCOM HQ and the Comptroller about all the stuff you're procuring with your budget, or for an International Op with their budget. Yes, more than I have those sections, but I can't procure on their budget any more than they can on mine. Neither can yours!! Word up.  I also oversee the Regiment and QM budgets (not just SCAs) for which they have no delegated authorities. None. Nor are they the Loggie Snr Tech or trade advisors, so they can't decide who is deploying at the last minute (mere hours to come in and actually fly away - in the middle of the night) onto Op Close-CMi etc. Amongst many other things. I know my job, you obviously don't. You want me to trust you to do it though if you're the Duty pers? Not a chance.

Come on down.

Do that to myself? I obviously did that to myself by doing a good job and getting promoted to my current rank level and posted into a on-of posn. We do it to ourselves? Freakin' laughable statement that is --- and very uninformed. I see you are not yet quite in one of those on-of posns. Perhaps some more TI or rank is required first.


----------



## PMedMoe (4 Jul 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> If there's one thing that hasn't changed in the CF during my career, it's the fact that bitching by the troops will occur always when they believe they've been shafted a day of their leave etc



The original post in the thread was regarding someone with a _signed_ leave pass who had plans to go home and was then assigned a duty in the _middle_ of their leave.  Not someone who got "shafted a day".  Then it evolved into the usual apples/oranges thread.


----------



## armyvern (4 Jul 2012)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> The original post in the thread was regarding someone with a _signed_ leave pass who had plans to go home and was then assigned a duty in the _middle_ of their leave.  Not someone who got "shafted a day".  Then it evolved into the usual apples/oranges thread.



I know what it was. I posted that the above scenario was bullshit a couple years ago when that post was first put up.  My further comments are to the 'down the drain' posts that have since occurred.


----------



## TangoTwoBravo (4 Jul 2012)

Duty on leave - oh well. If you were on Annual then indeed you should get the day back. Duty in the middle of leave sucks but it is a condition of life in the military.

As for Blackberries, a few years back our Commander issued direction that the use of Blackberries after hours was to be restricted to bone fide emergencies. Blackberries are terrible tools for most military folks. When travelling we should trust our subordinates to handle business in our stead and after hours the use of a Blackberry should be connected to saving the Earth from an Asteroid. In any case, Blackberry staff work leads to half-measures.


----------



## brihard (4 Jul 2012)

Tango2Bravo said:
			
		

> Duty in the middle of leave sucks but it is a condition of life in the military.



Nine times out of ten that's a cop out to administrative laziness on someone's part. Enough organizations make it work pretty flawlessly - not necessarily to the tune of everyone getting the exact blocks they want, but at least not having block leave chopped - that I'm loath to believe that it need happen in any but exceptional cases. Knowing that a duty schedule will impact leave availability, creating that schedule before crafting a block leave matrix ought to be SOP.

_Liability_ to getting jerked around should not _normalize_ that as a fact of life, particularly on things like chunks of leave...


----------



## aesop081 (4 Jul 2012)

Tango2Bravo said:
			
		

> Duty in the middle of leave sucks but it is a condition of life in the military.



Re-read the original post.


----------



## TangoTwoBravo (4 Jul 2012)

I did read the thread. The OP's situation sucks, but it is a fact of life. Now, the folks running duties should try to make them as painless as possible and in my experience they do. Usually mid-leave duties are indeed handled by the folks staying local in the unit. This has an unfairness of its own, but usually it comes out in the wash.


----------



## aesop081 (4 Jul 2012)

Tango2Bravo said:
			
		

> but it is a fact of life.



No, it's not.

You don't approve leave for a guy, then tell him he's got duty in the middle of it. You don't tell a guy he cant submit multiple leave passes (so he doesn't waste a day's leave being at work) because it's "too much work for the admin people".

So he goes in and does his duty. What is his status that day ? On leave or on-duty ? What is his status should he get injured doing this duty watch ?


----------



## Disenchantedsailor (4 Jul 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Come on down Max and be our Duty O instead of an idiot.
> 
> You can sit in my posn answering to the CO, CANOSCOM HQ and the Comptroller about all the stuff you're procuring with your budget, or for an International Op with their budget. Yes, more than I have those sections, but I can't procure on their budget any more than they can on mine. Neither can yours!! Word up.  I also oversee the Regiment and QM budgets (not just SCAs) for which they have no delegated authorities. None. Nor are they the Loggie Snr Tech or trade advisors, so they can't decide who is deploying at the last minute (mere hours to come in and actually fly away - in the middle of the night) onto Op Close-CMi etc. Amongst many other things. I know my job, you obviously don't. You want me to trust you to do it though if you're the Duty pers? Not a chance.
> 
> ...



Vern I almost always agree with you but this time you are wrong.  In fact being on the cusp of becoming one of those in the WO group that think they are they only person in the army that can do your job.  Fact is none of us are "that guy"  thats what 2IC's are for,  thats why CO's delegate acting CO's when they go on leave. If you up and retire tomorrow there will be someone who can replace you. (not saying I agree 100% with max either)


----------



## Fishbone Jones (4 Jul 2012)

So, how about those Habs?


----------



## brihard (4 Jul 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> So, how about those Habs?



Negative, Ghostrider. Pattern is angsty.


----------



## aesop081 (4 Jul 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> So, how about those Habs?



Well, signing Price to a 6-year deal was a good move.


----------



## Disenchantedsailor (4 Jul 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> So, how about those Habs?


Golfing with the Leafs ??


----------



## Fishbone Jones (4 Jul 2012)

Not_So_Arty_Newbie said:
			
		

> Golfing with the Leafs ??



Hell ya, I'd even golf with them. All I want to do is get out golfing, it's been too long already.


----------



## armyvern (5 Jul 2012)

Not_So_Arty_Newbie said:
			
		

> Vern I almost always agree with you but this time you are wrong.  In fact being on the cusp of becoming one of those in the WO group that think they are they only person in the army that can do your job.  Fact is none of us are "that guy"  thats what 2IC's are for, thats why CO's delegate acting CO's when they go on leave. If you up and retire tomorrow there will be someone who can replace you. (not saying I agree 100% with max either)



I never stated that I was the only one who could do my job; what I stated was there were many aspects that simply could not be delegated down - I gave an example where Treasury Board Policy prohibits the further delegating down. We also have security classifications to consider in our daily work; most are 'higher' than average joe (average joe has nothing to do with rank, it has to do with the security classification one holds). I'm not serving with the Army where we have a couple MWOs of the same trade, many WOs of the same trade etc in the Unit/Command in same base to do it when one is absent. 

I can assure you that 95% of my job is delegated down to either of 2 WO (based upon which of our numerous purple trades will be impacted) when I go on leave. It's the 5% that can not be delegated down that the crackberry allows me to handle anytime, anywhere. I am also the A/QM until next APS until they can fill that position, so it's not like those things can be delegated up. Some of our stuff requires "min rank MWO, Logisitics" The only other Loggie above MWO is the Fin O and TB Regulations prevent her from signing 32/34 as she will do the 33 on items I action. She can not do both - the law says that is illegal. I must do one, she the other.

That 5% also can not pile up on my desk to await my return from leave (as was the way it used to be in the CF when someone went on leave/course etc --- their desk piled up with that 'stuff' to await their return or they got called in to work to action) precisely because we are a high tempo pri 2 unit on 48 NTM with many pers constantly deployed, returning or leaving and same with our specialized equipment holdings - constant movement and cycling through all of the various ongoing operational theatres worldwide.

Having a crackberry here to ensure we are able to support those whenever required and as soon as possible in their operations is a necessity. We don't have the luxury of letting the work pile up until our return (as in the old days - that work isn't some new fangled "caused by blackberries": back then, it just didn't get done if the applicable authority was on leave and thus the required stuff didn't get to where it needed to be when it needed to be there) and crackberries have negated that.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (5 Jul 2012)

This one has spun out enough.

It's not even addressing the original post anymore.

People will have to find another thread to piss and moan about.


Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## vintinner (13 Oct 2012)

Just wondering if anyone knows if your BMQ happens to run through a holiday (ie. Christmas), do you come back for Christmas or do you just continue on with your BMQ. I would assume that you wouldn't come home for a holiday just because it would be "interrupting" to say, your training. However I have no idea and my BMQ starts the 29th, thus it will run through Christmas. So if anyone has a definitive answer that'd be great

-Vintinner


----------



## MikeL (13 Oct 2012)

Check around the forums a bit before asking a question,  you will get your answer quicker.  I believe this exact question was asked/answered recently.

Yes,  if the course goes over Christmas,  your course will get XX amount of days to go back home.  You will return and continue on with your course.


----------



## GnyHwy (13 Oct 2012)

On Christmas you get between 0600 and 0630 to open presents, and then its back to the drill hall maggot!


----------



## MMSS (13 Oct 2012)

GnyHwy said:
			
		

> On Christmas you get between 0600 and 0630 to open presents, and then its back to the drill hall maggot!



For some reason reminds me of this.


----------



## dreameater (1 Jan 2013)

"Annual vacation leave with full pay is granted according to CF regulations and policies." - http://www.rmc.ca/adm/rotpretp-pfofrpfi-eng.asp
i read in topicaid vacation that you get like 20 days annual vacation, but is that it? do you get holidays off? i'm talking about like after university. thanks for any replies! ^^


----------



## dapaterson (1 Jan 2013)

You will get stat holidays plus 20 working days (4 weeks) to start.  Other than that, the CF will employ you.


----------



## jwtg (8 Jan 2013)

The topic says 'in rotp' and your post says 'after university' so I'll go ahead and answer the question implied by your topic.  dapaterson has already answered your question about vacation after university (and effectively after the ROTP, because by then you will be commissioned).

During ROTP you will have vacation during the Christmas/Holiday period and the length of time will depend on your exam schedule.  I had over 3 weeks.  You will get reading week (assuming your school has one) and you will get some time during the summer if your training schedule permits it.  Some courses are longer and take up more summer time and might reduce/void your vacation time; personally, I had 3 weeks vacation over this past summer.

dapaterson is correct that you're entitled to 20 days + stat during your time in the ROTP; however, you will receive additional leave consistent with the academic schedule of your institution.


----------



## ktipnorth (22 May 2013)

I was wondering how leave works for Thanksgiving.  I am guessing that leave begins after last class on Friday (October 11th) but not sure what time we need to report back to the college (October 14th).  Can any current RMCC student advise me as to what the leave parameters are?

KTIPNORTH


----------



## Strike (22 May 2013)

Well, if you are leaving the local area you will need to fill out a leave pass.  Chances are this is your first one so ask you section commander/leader/whatever they're called there now how to fill one out.  At this time you can ask when you have to be back.


----------



## AshleyDawn (23 May 2013)

I can't remember exactly, but I think you are permitted to leave Friday after class, and have to be back Thanksgiving Monday by a certain time. 

You do need a leave pass to actually leave the college though (as you may already know). I believe to get one you have to write up a memo requesting the dates you want leave for, and pass it on to your Flight Commander. 

I've been out for awhile though, so my memory may be a little rusty, and I could be completely wrong, haha.


----------



## Wild_Rover (3 Nov 2015)

Good day,
My classmates and I at CFNES were just hit with duty watches over Xmas leave and we had a few questions regarding entitlements.  I've read through the CF leave policy manual and found a few links to aid us, for instance, Section 2.2 states from my understanding that because duty watches are from 1430 to 0730 the next day that we absolutely are not required to burn a leave day for either of those 2 days. We are on a career course for another 7 months so all of us will have to burn our 25 days before April either way (being as we are in school and cannot take leave whenever we like)  So the question is since say my leave day is on the 21st of the month can the CO authorize the school their 2 special days as per Section 5.9 and withhold them from me and my classmates as to stop us from being able to accumulate the 2 days.  Basically I am wondering if i can argue favoritism by withholding special from a few members while giving it to the rest of the unit.
Along with that, some of the guys were wondering if there is a circumstance where the school can force them to make 2 leave passes and take broken leave as to burn off days.  So someone with duty on the 23rd who refuses to take leave until the 25th because he doesn't want to go on a broken leave period.

Thanks ahead of time for any helpful comments.


----------



## Wild_Rover (3 Nov 2015)

Thanks.  Yes I did read this before, answered some of my questions, unfortunately not the ones I currently have, although I take from it that the school can make us take split leave around a duty watch but, i'm not 100% sure on that.


----------



## chadk (27 Sep 2016)

Apologies, if this should be in a specific thread, but am wondering what the policy is for taking more than the 9 annual days at Christmas time that most units want you to have left by December.  I've been on sick leave for almost two months due to severe vertigo ( had condition since May) and the doc keeps adding more sick leave every time I go in for required weekly check-ups.  My problem is that since I have 25 annual, I basically have 3 weeks to burn and am wondering (given my medical circumstances and sitting on my ass because of it, if there would exist the possibility of taking 15 annual during Christmas to go to Ontario to see my dependant children and family.  I'm wondering, I guess if anyone has ever been allowed to take that amount of annual at that period if on heavy MELs, and in a static unit?


----------



## PuckChaser (27 Sep 2016)

Its your annual leave. Some units may request that you do a memo to take leave outside block leave periods (Christmas, March Break, Summer), but if you're on MELs, the operational impact of your absence shouldn't be a big deal. I've seen it fairly regularly that people take the week before and/or the week after Christmas block to burn some leave off, and you have a great case because your Adjt will be very concerned at your remaining leave balance come January.

Just make sure that your Doc knows when your Christmas leave starts and ends, so that any new sick leave wouldn't override the annual.


----------



## chadk (27 Sep 2016)

> Its your annual leave. Some units may request that you do a memo to take leave outside block leave periods (Christmas, March Break, Summer), but if you're on MELs, the operational impact of your absence shouldn't be a big deal. I've seen it fairly regularly that people take the week before and/or the week after Christmas block to burn some leave off, and you have a great case because your Adjt will be very concerned at your remaining leave balance come January.
> 
> Just make sure that your Doc knows when your Christmas leave starts and ends, so that any new sick leave wouldn't override the annual.



Thanks PuckChaser! I was a bit worried about what to do....especially as I'm on sick leave already.


----------



## CountDC (28 Sep 2016)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Just make sure that your Doc knows when your Christmas leave starts and ends, so that any new sick leave wouldn't override the annual.



Why worry about sick leave overriding annual?  If the Doc decides you should be on sick leave then sick leave it is,  how much annual you have has no bearing on it.  If you have too much sick leave for the unit to let you take annual then it is a case for accumulating.  Sick leave is for you to recover, annual is for you to have some down time and enjoy life. 

If the Doc is giving you sick leave ensure there is no restriction on travel or requirement to see the Doc again during the period you want to be away.


----------



## Thespiceguy79 (6 Nov 2016)

Hello all. 

My partner is being sent to basic training soon and We had a couple of questions about benefits? 

1. Do you receive separation pay during basic? Some say yes some say no. 
2. When do we qualify for health benefits? 
3. Since this BMQ goes over Christmas will he get to come home for that time?  

We are new to all of this. Thanks for your help!  I have searched the threads but couldn't find a definite answer.


----------



## LightFighter (6 Nov 2016)

Thespiceguy79 said:
			
		

> 1. Do you receive separation pay during basic? Some say yes some say no.
> 2. When do we qualify for health benefits?



Are you Married/Common Law, or Dating(and each residing in their own residence)?



			
				Thespiceguy79 said:
			
		

> 3. Since this BMQ goes over Christmas will he get to come home for that time?



Yes, there will be a leave period during that time and he will be able to go home.


----------



## Thespiceguy79 (6 Nov 2016)

Common law


----------



## mariomike (6 Nov 2016)

For reference, perhaps,

Benefits during BMQ

will be merged with,

Allowances / Benefits during BMQ  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/111011.0



			
				Thespiceguy79 said:
			
		

> Since this BMQ goes over Christmas will he get to come home for that time?





			
				Thespiceguy79 said:
			
		

> I have searched the threads but couldn't find a definite answer.



BASIC - Christmas Leave  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/20046.25
3 pages.

BMQ over Christmas  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/115965.0

basic training - Christmas Leave  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/12750.0

Christmas Leave (merged) 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/103606.0
6 pages

etc...



			
				Thespiceguy79 said:
			
		

> Common law



Common Law Marriage in the Canadian Forces - Mega Thread 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/25612.75
15 pages.


----------



## Thespiceguy79 (6 Nov 2016)

I'm assuming from reading that thread about common law that the answer is no. He will just pay less for rations and room and board.


----------



## mariomike (6 Nov 2016)

Thespiceguy79 said:
			
		

> He will just pay less for rations and room and board.



You can read more about that here,

The Rations and Quarters Merged Thread  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/33594.0
20 pages.


----------



## Ayrsayle (6 Nov 2016)

Thespiceguy79 said:
			
		

> Hello all.
> 
> My partner is being sent to basic training soon and We had a couple of questions about benefits?
> 
> ...



1.  Separation pay (to my understanding) does not exist anymore.  Unless something has changed recently (and someone will chime in) you will still receive PLD (Post Living Differential) for the location you both live in.

2. What "health benefits" are you referring to?

3. Most training cycles account for Christmas as a period of time off - while his training cycle MAY cover over Christmas, I'm 99% positive the staff and training institution do not want to be there over Christmas holidays, so there is usually a break for members to go home during the holidays (You may with to look into Leave Travel Assistance if you live far away from the training establishment, etc...)

I'm also not a Clerk, nor do I work at the training institution - your best bet is for your partner to ask the training institution they are attending for up to date details.

Best of luck!


----------



## YY (20 Nov 2018)

Hi, I’m now in TRP platoon (injury from BMQ).  But I can’t go to my next of kin in Xmas leave.  Basically I’m homeless when the base is closed for holidays.  Any advice please? Padre looks like could only recommend cheap hotels for me.  Chain of command instructor seems not care.  I’m already in debt a lot because of coming here for the course.  Is there any base can take care of the homeless recruit at no cost or very low cost? Looking forward to your advice.  Thanks


----------



## BeyondTheNow (20 Nov 2018)

YY said:
			
		

> Hi, I’m now in TRP platoon (injury from BMQ).  But I can’t go to my next of kin in Xmas leave.  Basically I’m homeless when the base is closed for holidays.  Any advice please? Padre looks like could only recommend cheap hotels for me.  Chain of command instructor seems not care.  I’m already in debt a lot because of coming here for the course.  Is there any base can take care of the homeless recruit at no cost or very low cost? Looking forward to your advice.  Thanks



Sorry to hear you’re on TRP. I hope you heal-up quickly and get back to it. Yup, it’s the way it goes there. Staff doesn’t want to have to stay—they want to leave over Xmas block leave also, so recruits are told to to get out. Everything will go down to minimal personnel only and all recruit areas (messes, quarters etc) are locked down.  

I’m not sure what’s considered “cheap” in terms of hotels in the area (I only recall the usual popular ones, although there are a couple of small-name places on the other side of the canal with kitchenettes and such, but I can’t remember the names now), but you’ll absolutely have to find somewhere to go. Your staff will work with you to figure something out if it absolutely comes down to it—they have to. But ideally, you need to make arrangements. Are you friends enough with anyone in your platoon you can ask to crash with? I know you wouldn’t want to feel like a burden, but I bet you’re not the only one at CFLRS in this position. There were a couple of recruits in similar circumstances when I was there.


----------



## jeffb (21 Nov 2018)

A cheap option for accommodations is to check out another base. Kingston is not too far and I believe transient accommodations are only something like $10 a night. Call the base number, press 0 and ask the operator for base accommodations. They should be able to tell you.


----------



## Andriyko (21 Nov 2018)

YY said:
			
		

> Hi, I’m now in TRP platoon (injury from BMQ).  But I can’t go to my next of kin in Xmas leave.  Basically I’m homeless when the base is closed for holidays.  Any advice please? Padre looks like could only recommend cheap hotels for me.  Chain of command instructor seems not care.  I’m already in debt a lot because of coming here for the course.  Is there any base can take care of the homeless recruit at no cost or very low cost? Looking forward to your advice.  Thanks



Why cant you stay in your current accommodation, I get the base is shutting down for the holidays but its not like they will padlock the doors in the shacks. I have heard of pats staying over the holidays at Aldershot. I would just stay and if someone asks, say you dont plan to go home for the holidays and let them figure it out. usually they want everyone gone because the kitchens shut down but you can just buy your own food.


----------



## BeyondTheNow (21 Nov 2018)

Andriyko said:
			
		

> Why cant you stay in your current accommodation, I get the base is shutting down for the holidays but its not like they will padlock the doors in the shacks. I have heard of pats staying over the holidays at Aldershot. I would just stay and if someone asks, say you dont plan to go home for the holidays and let them figure it out. usually they want everyone gone because the kitchens shut down but you can just buy your own food.



No, that’s not how it works at CFLRS. You can’t “...just stay and if someone asks...”


----------



## Sub_Guy (21 Nov 2018)

I’d be surprised if someone from your CoC was not looking for a solution behind the scenes.

I don’t know the policies off hand, but what is the responsibility of the CAF in this situation?   This individual is on basic, can’t afford to go home, can’t afford a hotel and is essentially going to be forced out.

I don’t think it’s right to just say suck it up princess, see you in a few days.

It’s probably worth it to get ahold of these folks

“the Exacta Centre at 450-358-7099, ext. 6110, or at CentreExactaSJN@forces.gc.ca”.    Military accommodations within the Saint Jean Garrison, maybe you can get another room in another building for the days you are forced out?  I don’t know the area that well or even if it’s possible.   They should be able to point you in the right direction though.

The local MFRC might be able to help you as well, ask about rentals from them.  Some bases do have rooms/houses they rent out for pretty cheap.   Usually with a caveat that you have to vacate if there’s an emergency.


----------



## ballz (21 Nov 2018)

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> Sorry to hear you’re on TRP. I hope you heal-up quickly and get back to it. Yup, it’s the way it goes there. Staff doesn’t want to have to stay—they want to leave over Xmas block leave also, so recruits are told to to get out. Everything will go down to minimal personnel only and all recruit areas (messes, quarters etc) are locked down.
> 
> I’m not sure what’s considered “cheap” in terms of hotels in the area (I only recall the usual popular ones, although there are a couple of small-name places on the other side of the canal with kitchenettes and such, but I can’t remember the names now), but you’ll absolutely have to find somewhere to go. Your staff will work with you to figure something out if it absolutely comes down to it—they have to. But ideally, you need to make arrangements. Are you friends enough with anyone in your platoon you can ask to crash with? I know you wouldn’t want to feel like a burden, but I bet you’re not the only one at CFLRS in this position. There were a couple of recruits in similar circumstances when I was there.



Sounds to me like the CAF should be putting these people in a hotel and paying them per diem rates.

The CAF posts you there on a prohibited posting, so you don't have a "home," your home is the CAF and whatever shacks they put you in. You pay for rations & quarters while there as a result. The CAF now decides to close the doors on your home for a few days (a week, two weeks?) because the CAF members that run the place need to have time off. You are now homeless because of the CAF.

If I were this guy I'd be submitting a notice of intent to grieve tomorrow...


----------



## BeyondTheNow (21 Nov 2018)

ballz said:
			
		

> Sounds to me like the CAF should be putting these people in a hotel and paying them per diem rates.
> 
> The CAF posts you there on a prohibited posting, so you don't have a "home," your home is the CAF and whatever shacks they put you in. You pay for rations & quarters while there as a result. The CAF now decides to close the doors on your home for a few days (a week, two weeks?) because the CAF members that run the place need to have time off. You are now homeless because of the CAF.
> 
> If I were this guy I'd be submitting a notice of intent to grieve tomorrow...



I’d mentioned in my post, albeit briefly, that staff WILL work with him and make arrangements. But ideally, (and this depends on individual staff how hard they push) they want the recruits to have arrangements made. Obviously, if there are absolutely zero options available for the recruit, and all possibilities have been exhausted then staff will have to figure something out. But yea, when I was there, they left the onus up to the recruit for as long as possible and staying at CFLRS was absolutely not an option.


----------



## ballz (21 Nov 2018)

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> they left the onus up to the recruit for as long as possible



Sounds like great "leadership" at leadership school where they sell all the fairy tales about how we look after our people. Literally try and leave out brand new recruits, not even basic qualified, to solve the problems the CAF created. This could fit well in that thread about recruiting/retention issues.

Disdain in this and other posts not directed at you personally.


----------



## PuckChaser (21 Nov 2018)

Christmas leave is what, a month away from now for the recruits? Probably should let the CoC do their thing.

On a slightly related topic, are recruits paying R&Q while they are at BMQ? I assume this would cease for the few weeks they're away.


----------



## BeyondTheNow (21 Nov 2018)

ballz said:
			
		

> Sounds like great "leadership" at leadership school where they sell all the fairy tales about how we look after our people. Literally try and leave out brand new recruits, not even basic qualified, to solve the problems the CAF created. This could fit well in that thread about recruiting/retention issues.
> 
> Disdain in this and other posts not directed at you personally.



That’s ok, I didn’t take it personally and I largely agree. I have many, many opinions about CFLRS and the things I witnessed during my time there, but I’d be well outside my lanes critiquing them to any serious degree, so I usually just keep my trap (mostly) zipped.


----------



## BeyondTheNow (21 Nov 2018)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Christmas leave is what, a month away from now for the recruits? Probably should let the CoC do their thing.
> 
> On a slightly related topic, are recruits paying R&Q while they are at BMQ? I assume this would cease for the few weeks they're away.



Yes they pay R&Q. In 2015 R were around $550/month and Q were approx $100/month. If married, no Q charges were deducted. As well, R&Q charges weren’t lessened to account for Xmas leave. As far as I’m aware, it’s still the same.


----------



## Sub_Guy (22 Nov 2018)

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> Yes they pay R&Q. In 2015 R were around $550/month and Q were approx $100/month. If married, no Q charges were deducted. As well, R&Q charges weren’t lessened to account for Xmas leave. As far as I’m aware, it’s still the same.



Rations & Quarters should be lessened to account for XMAS leave.   Isn't that why we have that little section on our leave passes?


----------



## BeyondTheNow (22 Nov 2018)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> Rations & Quarters should be lessened to account for XMAS leave.   Isn't that why we have that little section on our leave passes?



It was explained to me that Xmas break is already factored into the budget/amounts for FY when rates are set at CFLRS.  I don’t know if this is how they do things across the board for any type of course running over block leave (RegF) CAF-wide, but I DO know that there are different types of training/courses where the rates haven’t been adjusted due to Xmas—the amount is the amount, it stays the same. I haven’t done any RegF clerking specifically related to R&Q on a base, only PRes. So I can’t speak on details for how it’s all calculated. This info was just what was passed to me.


----------



## Pusser (23 Nov 2018)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> Rations & Quarters should be lessened to account for XMAS leave.   Isn't that why we have that little section on our leave passes?



Actually, no.  It's the opposite.  R&Q rates are set nationally (i.e. NOT by the base) and annual leave is factored into the rate on the assumption that the member will not be staying in quarters or eating at the mess while on leave.  The section on the leave pass is there to let the ration accounting section know that the member in question is not entitled to rations for the period of the leave pass.  Members on leave are actually supposed to buy meal tickets if they choose to eat in the mess at that time, even if they are on ration strength.

Technical stuff:  CFAO 34-16 states the following:

*RATIONS PROVIDED WITHOUT CHARGE*

4.     The commanding officer (CO) of a base, unit or ship providing food
services is authorized to draw rations for and provide meals without charge
to:


The way this works is that the Ration Accounting Section on the base will get a monthly report on the number of personnel on ration strength (i.e. those entitled to meals either because they are paying for them through their pay accounts or are entitled to free meals).  They use that number to calculate the amount of public funds they are allowed to draw in order to meet their dining requirements.  Leave passes are included in this calculation and so the CO cannot draw funds to feed anyone on leave.  Hence personnel on leave are not entitled to eat in the mess, unless they buy an additional meal ticket.

None of what I've said here, however, absolves the chain of command from looking after the OP and ensuring he has a roof over his head.


----------



## kev994 (23 Nov 2018)

Rations, sure. But you can’t tell me that the member has to clear out of their SQ every time they go on leave. So I would argue the member is already paying for accommodations.


----------



## YY (3 Jan 2019)

Hi all, thank you all replies.  I have solved the problem.  I could not reply earlier because my account was stuck.

Basically, I stayed in Montreal cheap room (AIRBNB website, recommended by an instructor).  I have no car so they won't allow / recommend me to stay in base/ other base.  The padre helped me a lot in both emotional and actual support.  I recommend recruits to seek help/ discussion with padre regardless you have religious belief or not.  Their goal is to help not to persuade/ judge people on their believes. 

Thank you all.  Have a wonderful 2019.


----------



## lid (3 Oct 2019)

YY said:
			
		

> Hi all, thank you all replies.  I have solved the problem.  I could not reply earlier because my account was stuck.
> 
> Basically, I stayed in Montreal cheap room (AIRBNB website, recommended by an instructor).  I have no car so they won't allow / recommend me to stay in base/ other base.  The padre helped me a lot in both emotional and actual support.  I recommend recruits to seek help/ discussion with padre regardless you have religious belief or not.  Their goal is to help not to persuade/ judge people on their believes.
> 
> Thank you all.  Have a wonderful 2019.



Thanks very much for this reply.
I think this means for Nov BMQ / BMOQ, you cannot stay in CFLRS during Christmax block leave (3 weeks). 
I will probably keep renting my current place for the period. 

Is it possible to get leave travel allowance for the block leave period?


----------



## CountDC (23 Oct 2019)

lid said:
			
		

> Is it possible to get leave travel allowance for the block leave period?



The best one to answer this is the staff there on base.  By the way it is assistance not allowance.   May not seem important but having to deal with numerous people over the years it is the first step to helping them understand why they only get a certain amount reimbursed instead of all.


----------



## dangerboy (23 Oct 2019)

lid said:
			
		

> Is it possible to get leave travel allowance for the block leave period?



This website has the the info about Leave Travel Assistance (LTA) https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/policies-standards/compensation-benefits-instructions/chapter-209-transportation-expenses.html#sec-209-50 (look at 209.50) 

209.50(3) (Entitlement) A member of the Regular Force – or of the Reserve Force who is both on Class B or C Reserve Service and authorized to move their household goods and effects at public expense for that Class B or C Reserve Service – is entitled to LTA if all of the following conditions are satisfied after 31 January 2011:
   a. The member is on leave under QR&O chapter 16 (Leave), except under article 16.18 (Retirement Leave), article 16.25 (Leave 
       Without Pay and Allowances), article 16.26 (Maternity Leave) and article 16.27 (Parental Leave) of the QR&O;
   b. the member has a family member;
   c. during leave, either the member travels to see a family member or a family member travels to see the member;
   d. the member provides proof of travel to an authorized destination;
   e. the member is not entitled to a payment for travel expenses under section 21 (Home Leave Travel Assistance) of the Military 
       Foreign Service Instructions; and
   f.  only in respect of a member with a dependant, the member is – for 60 continuous days – either entitled to Separation Expense 
       under CBI 208.997 (Separation Expense) or absent – for service reasons – from their place of duty.


----------



## ballz (23 Oct 2019)

CountDC said:
			
		

> May not seem important but having to deal with numerous people over the years it is the first step to helping them understand why they only get a certain amount reimbursed instead of all.



Also seems to help confuse DCBA into thinking they can arbitrarily limit the TB-approved benefits :stirpot:


----------



## CountDC (24 Oct 2019)

haven't seen that - perhaps you would like to explain so the rest of us can understand what you are referring to.


----------



## ballz (24 Oct 2019)

LTA is seriously one of the most overanalyzed benefits I've ever seen. The policy is written pretty clearly and somehow DCBA has turned it into rocket appliances.

We will likely need this moved to the LTA thread, but let's start with how a taxi, supported by a receipt, is apparently not an "actual cost" of travelling from your home (place of duty) to your family member's home (the principle residence) when you travel by commercial air.... unless you live in an airport, and your family member lives in an airport, local transportation supported by a receipt is most definitely an actual cost of travelling of return travel by commercial carrier.

And the most irritating counter-argument, "no, because it's only _assistance_." That's not an argument. It doesn't matter if it's called purple monkey wrenches benefit, if the policy says you get blue bananas, you get blue bananas.


----------



## CountDC (4 Nov 2019)

ah I see;  perhaps CBI's would help which is clear on what is claimable for LTA.

the amount of LTA is the lesser of:

a.the actual cost of return travel by commercial carrier,
i.in respect of a service couple who meet at a place of duty, from the member's place of duty to the other member's place of duty; and
ii.in any other case, from the member's place of duty to the principal residence; and

b.the amount determined by the formula,

[({Dx2} - 800) - P] x OLKR

where

D is the most direct kilometric road distance, 
P is the distance the member travels as a passenger in a private motor vehicle with another person who is reimbursed at public expense for travelling that distance; and

OLKR is the Ontario lower kilometric rate in Appendix A of the National Joint Council Commuting Assistance Directive, as amended from time to time

and of course

*commercial carrier 
includes but not limited to*:
a.a commercial passenger aviation service;
b.a commercial passenger railway service;
c.a commercial inter-city bus service; or
d.a ferry service,
i. between two locations within British Columbia, or
ii. between any two of the following provinces: New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Labrador, Nova Scotia, and Prince Edward Island. 

Oops - commercial carrier - did that just say NOT LIMITED TO!!   ;D  Isn't a taxi a commercial carrier? How about local bus/subway?  Don't see where it says only one carrier can be used.

Yep, things sure are clear there. 

Here's an idea - how about someone that has an LTA claim with expenses not paid redress it?


----------



## ballz (4 Nov 2019)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Oops - commercial carrier - did that just say NOT LIMITED TO!!   ;D  Isn't a taxi a commercial carrier? How about local bus/subway?  Don't see where it says only one carrier can be used.
> 
> Yep, things sure are clear there.



Glad you agree that things are clear that a taxi/bus/subway/etc should be covered. DCBA will not allow anyone to cover those things. They have somehow determined that "actual costs" don't include "local transportation."



			
				CountDC said:
			
		

> Here's an idea - how about someone that has an LTA claim with expenses not paid redress it?



I've been looking for someone who is eligible to let me do a redress for them and they can sign it. I can't personally because my eligible family member lives too close.


----------



## CountDC (5 Nov 2019)

Yeah, I can't because you can not file a redress on behalf of someone else, you can only file for yourself and my family is with me.

Hopefully someone does though so I can stop trying to explain to people it is because of a policy pushed down and not just because I picked it out of my *** today.


----------

