# When is 5 years of service complete?



## xbowhntr (3 Jun 2012)

In regards to receiving 5 extra days of leave, is 5 years of service complete starting on date of enrolment or first day of basic training? I was under the impression that retirement date was based on enrolment and that I had paid back on my pension the LWOP days between enrolment and start of basic. 

The reason I ask is my enrolment date is 30-Mar but my start of basic was 30-May (next fiscal year).

Thanks


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## Sythen (3 Jun 2012)

The way it worked for me is it goes by the day you start getting paid, so when you get to BMQ. It doesn't have anything to do with pension contributions, but the # of days the military expects you to work.


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## xbowhntr (3 Jun 2012)

Thanks for the response. I was hoping it was based on enrolment date but makes sense that it is the first day of basic.


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## Biohazardxj (3 Jun 2012)

5 years from the date of enrollment not the date you reported to BMQ.  You may have been on leave with out pay but you were still a serving member.


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## Occam (3 Jun 2012)

To expand further on that, you get 25 days annual leave during the leave year in which you reach 5 years of service (based on enrolment date).  So, if your enrolment date is 30 Mar 2008, you should have 25 days leave *this* leave year (2012/2013).

Unless they've changed the interpretation of QR&O 16.14 recently, that is...


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## xbowhntr (3 Jun 2012)

My enrolment was 30-Mar-2009. I know Im getting a little ahead of myself but I was just curious what would happen seeing how my enrolment date is a day before the end of the fiscal year. If I were to get the 5 days on the 30th, would I be allowed to carry it into the next year or even put up a memo to use it in the prior year?


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## PuckChaser (3 Jun 2012)

Your CO would have to allow you to accumulate the leave, they can authorize 5 days a year. You can use the 5 days as long as the leave pass starts in the current fiscal year. If the CO doesn't authorize, or you don't use them, they will disappear.


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## Occam (3 Jun 2012)

xbowhntr said:
			
		

> My enrolment was 30-Mar-2009. I know Im getting a little ahead of myself but I was just curious what would happen seeing how my enrolment date is a day before the end of the fiscal year. If I were to get the 5 days on the 30th, would I be allowed to carry it into the next year or even put up a memo to use it in the prior year?



On April 1, 2013, you'll be credited with 25 days leave, since that is the leave year (2013/2014) in which you'll have 5 years service.  You don't get the leave credited on the exact date you get 5 years service, you get it at the beginning of the leave year in which the five-year point occurs.



			
				PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Your CO would have to allow you to accumulate the leave, they can authorize 5 days a year. You can use the 5 days as long as the leave pass starts in the current fiscal year. If the CO doesn't authorize, or you don't use them, they will disappear.



Accumulating leave doesn't come into play in this situation.


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## armyvern (3 Jun 2012)

xbowhntr said:
			
		

> My enrolment was 30-Mar-2009. I know Im getting a little ahead of myself but I was just curious what would happen seeing how my enrolment date is a day before the end of the fiscal year. If I were to get the 5 days on the 30th, would I be allowed to carry it into the next year or even put up a memo to use it in the prior year?



Are you sure Occam? We had a situation this year where a member gained 5 more days annual on 29 March when he hit his 5 year mark. We had to investigate why he had not used 5 days of his annual and provide answers to the CO; SupClerk investigated and it turned out that the 5 days were not accredited to his leave account until he reached the date of the 5 year mark of his enrollment (ie: were accredited to him on 29 Mar 12) which explained why we were tracking that he had, in fact, used all his leave as required. That was the FY in which they were effective - FY11/12 not the next 01 April (FY12/13). Member was then allowed (authorized) to accrue these days as he was unable to use due to deployment.


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## Occam (3 Jun 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Are you sure Occam? We had a situation this year where a member gained 5 more days annual on 29 March when he hit his 5 year mark. We had to investigate why he had not used 5 days of his annual and provide answers to the CO; SupClerk investigated and it turned out that the 5 days were not accredited to his leave account until he reached the date of the 5 year mark of his enrollment (ie: were accredited to him on 29 Mar 12) which explained why we were tracking that he had, in fact, used all his leave as required. That was the FY in which they were effective - FY11/12 not the next 01 April (FY12/13). Member was then allowed (authorized) to accrue these days as he was unable to use due to deployment.



In my experience, it's always been as I described - we always got the increase in credits at the beginning of the LY in which the five-year point occurred.  The new Leave Manual even mentions under _3.1.02 Management_ "Annual leave does not have to be earned before it is used; however, over expenditures shall be recovered".


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## armyvern (3 Jun 2012)

Occam said:
			
		

> In my experience, it's always been as I described - we always got the increase in credits at the beginning of the LY in which the five-year point occurred.  The new Leave Manual even mentions under _3.1.02 Management_ "Annual leave does not have to be earned before it is used; however, over expenditures shall be recovered".



Seen. But in this case we had been tracking that he had used all his leave (20 days). We had the excel doc that the SuptClerk had pulled down in a query and then had sent out at the beginning of March for all members. This query showed that the member's balance was 0. Then, on 30 March and the final audit ... he suddenly had 5 days balance. SuptClerk determined that it showed up 29 March when member reached his 5 year mark. It didn't show up prior to that (on 01 Apr 11) and that is why we were all caught unawares and member was authorized to accrue.

Perhaps there was a system glitch where the leave didn't show up on 01 April 2011 if indeed that is when it should show up on the leave system. I just know we all went "WTH?" when suddenly confronted with 5 days of non-used leave.


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## Occam (3 Jun 2012)

It's quite possible that it was a system glitch.  I didn't trust the electronic system as far as I could throw it.  More than once I needed to use saved copies of my approved leave forms in order to reassure my CoC that I had indeed used all my leave, because leave taken months prior had yet to appear on the electronic record.

I remember my own surprise that 25 days leave automagically became available (as indicated on the "Leave Remaining" block) on my first leave pass of the 90/91 leave year - I was sure I shouldn't have the extra five days yet, but the CC assured me that they were there and available to use.  I used them to take a Pri 05 flight to marry my future ex-wife.   ;D


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## xbowhntr (4 Jun 2012)

I just talked to a friend who got 5 days on Mar 29th and had to take leave from 29-mar to 3-apr so he would have no new leave in the next FY. However after looking at the Leave Manual I would have to side with Occam on my interpretation of the rules. The consensus seems to be that my enrolment date seems to be the determination of ones "years of service". I wonder why it was the day I started basic that counted as promotable time....


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## armyvern (4 Jun 2012)

xbowhntr said:
			
		

> I just talked to a friend who got 5 days on Mar 29th and had to take leave from 29-mar to 3-apr so he would have no new leave in the next FY. However after looking at the Leave Manual I would have to side with Occam on my interpretation of the rules. The consensus seems to be that my enrolment date seems to be the determination of ones "years of service". I wonder why it was the day I started basic that counted as promotable time....



I agree with how it should work according to the leave manual, but apparently your friend nor my troop even had their 5 days show up on their accounts until their actual 5 year mark came around (29 March). My troop would have then had to take his too (that's why they run the query again on 30 Mar in my Unit - to get leave passes in beginning on the 31st [last day of the FY]), but he had deployed and could not use it and ergo the authorization to accrue that followed.

If it's supposed to show up at the beginning of the FY, and it did not for your friend nor my troop ... I can only imagine that there are others out there whom found themselves in same position. Seems that there was indeed some kind of glitch in the system this year then.


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## Occam (4 Jun 2012)

xbowhntr said:
			
		

> The consensus seems to be that my enrolment date seems to be the determination of ones "years of service". I wonder why it was the day I started basic that counted as promotable time....



You have to look at the source policies to figure that out.  QR&O 16.14 refers to "enrolment" with regard to annual leave.  Career policy (CFAO 49-4, if I remember correctly) as it pertains to promotion deals with your seniority dates as a Pte/OS recruit, which do not include LWOP on enrolment.


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## DAA (4 Jun 2012)

xbowhntr said:
			
		

> My enrolment was 30-Mar-2009.



Your entitled to 25 days annual leave on 31 Mar 2014 or earlier if you have prior Res F or Reg F service.  Your unit can allow you to use it in advance of that date to avoid sending you on leave at the end of Mar.  While the regulation does state that you don't actually earn the additional 5 days until the day following the day you have 5 years of service, in most cases which I have seen, the member does take the leave in advance.  It makes more sense to do this rather than ordering someone on leave in such a scenario.


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## CountDC (4 Jun 2012)

The system will credit you the 5 days once you have completed the 5 years. In this case he will be given the 5 days on the 30 Mar (29 Mar is the final day in the 5 year period, 30 Mar is the start of year 6).  As he is now aware of this he should advise his boss that this will happen so that they can take action to monitor and ensure his leave is used up by the end of the year.

The CO is not under any obligation to authorize accumulation of the leave.  It is the opposite - the CO is technically supposed to ensure the members leave is fully monitored and used, this includes noting the anniversary dates of any entitlement increase(5 and 28 years).  Simply because the member does not get the credit until the end of Mar does not justify an accumulation which takes an imperative military requirement.  In this case it is most likely a matter of use it or cash it (which most CO's do not like to authorize).  Leave never just disappears - it is an entitlement that must be used or cashed out.  

FY11 we had a member that tried the excuse the credit didn't show until the 30 or 31 Mar (can't remember which day now) in order to accumulate his extra days.  As it was April already and thus too late to use the leave he was forced to cash them.  The basis was he knew they were coming and should have requested them prior instead of waiting until Apr to address it.  Didn't help his case any that another member started leave the last work day of the month to ensure their days were used up.

If you were a component transfer then check and confirm your anniversary date.  Your reserve time credit will change the 25 day/5 year one ( I started with the 25 days).  It does not have any bearing on the 30 day/28 year one (damn it).


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