# The Great Toque and Glove Conundrum, Solved



## dimsum (23 Nov 2018)

I still can't believe this isn't Duffel Blog or Le Bleu et Or.

https://i.redd.it/1g8sncexs4021.jpg?fbclid=IwAR2mVFfFQS7gGx2v4aNf5ceKt1OknjkHJc3ulIVqSFIek6WXbzncZtQ02ZI


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## BurmaShave (23 Nov 2018)

Needs flight suits on the RCAF side. Not that anyone understands flight suit dress regs.


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## dimsum (23 Nov 2018)

BurmaShave said:
			
		

> Needs flight suits on the RCAF side. Not that anyone understands flight suit dress regs.



Don't give them any ideas.


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## brihard (24 Nov 2018)

LOL, how about the door gunner from the Argylls on 3-08? His dress of the day during workup in Pet was flight suit with Glengarry. You want to see some cranky RCR NCOs...


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## dimsum (24 Nov 2018)

Brihard said:
			
		

> LOL, how about the door gunner from the Argylls on 3-08? His dress of the day during workup in Pet was flight suit with Glengarry. You want to see some cranky RCR NCOs...



The mental image of them spinning, but not being able to jack him up b/c he's totally correct, pleases me.


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## OldSolduer (24 Nov 2018)

Brihard said:
			
		

> LOL, how about the door gunner from the Argylls on 3-08? His dress of the day during workup in Pet was flight suit with Glengarry. You want to see some cranky RCR NCOs...



I have the right to not jump in here but I will. As long as we have all kinds of regiments the CAF will have difficulty enforcing dress regs.


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## brihard (24 Nov 2018)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> The mental image of them spinning, but not being able to jack him up b/c he's totally correct, pleases me.



It pleased a lot of people.



			
				Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> I have the right to not jump in here but I will. As long as we have all kinds of regiments the CAF will have difficulty enforcing dress regs.



But he did nothing wrong. There was no dress reg not being enforced. That was his appropriate headdress as a member of a regiment which wore that as their garrison headdress for NCOs. Does it look weird as hell? Yes. Was it silly? Yes. But it was 100% legit. The fact that nobody in times past foresaw toons leaning out the side door of helicopters, and consequently never wrote dress regs to prevent the Glengarry/flight suit fiasco was not his problem.

It's too bad he didn't wear it while flying. There would have been something majestic about those two black tassels flapping in the wind from behind a side mounted minigun...


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## dimsum (24 Nov 2018)

Brihard said:
			
		

> It's too bad he didn't wear it while flying. There would have been something majestic about those two black tassels flapping in the wind from behind a side mounted minigun...



Well that would have been FOD (Foreign Object Debris), and it's tough to explain to the boss why your hat-tails caused the helo to crash.


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## brihard (24 Nov 2018)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Well that would have been FOD (Foreign Object Debris), and it's tough to explain to the boss why your hat-tails caused the helo to crash.



Ah, but you don't have to, because you're dead. Gloriously.


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## OldSolduer (24 Nov 2018)

Brihard said:
			
		

> It pleased a lot of people.
> 
> But he did nothing wrong. There was no dress reg not being enforced. That was his appropriate headdress as a member of a regiment which wore that as their garrison headdress for NCOs. Does it look weird as hell? Yes. Was it silly? Yes. But it was 100% legit. The fact that nobody in times past foresaw toons leaning out the side door of helicopters, and consequently never wrote dress regs to prevent the Glengarry/flight suit fiasco was not his problem.
> 
> It's too bad he didn't wear it while flying. There would have been something majestic about those two black tassels flapping in the wind from behind a side mounted minigun...



Totally understood. I think my point is that despite our tolerance for things outside the mainstream some cannot tolerate Regimental customs etc.


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## brihard (24 Nov 2018)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Totally understood. I think my point is that despite our tolerance for things outside the mainstream some cannot tolerate Regimental customs etc.



Copy.

I don't know if it's at this point 'myth, passed into legend', but does anyone have the real story on the RCAF subbie some years ago who, while allegedly posted OJT to 427 squadron, and without yet having earned his RCAF cap badge, was (again allegedly) quite properly wearing his old RCR death star on a blue beret and causing much consternation?


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## Kirkhill (24 Nov 2018)

Came across this article about a week ago - Now I have found a home for it.

http://www.craigrobertdouglas.co.uk/punk-history-military-ally-ness/?fbclid=IwAR2_0QuqYrc6cF7ujCOumF2SeayIyP4HfanvaEIhMfu2ZRA0GVAfU-C6s1g



> A Punk History Of Military Cool, or the pursuit of ally – ness



Then



> ....The Origins of Ally
> I’m going to give you a flavour of how the British army has always valued unconventional military fashion.  Here’s an excerpt from Cornelius Ryan’s masterful account of Operation Market Garden, ‘A Bridge too Far’. An observer describes the audience for Lt. Gen. Brian Horrocks’ briefing –
> 
> There was a real casualness about everyone’s attire… most commanders were dressed in ‘sniper’s smocks, parachutist’s jackets and jeep coats over brightly coloured slacks, corduroys, riding breeches or even jodhpurs’. Instead of ties many sported ascots or ‘scarves of various colours’.




Now



> The Circle of Ally
> Or, is anti- ally the new ally? One of my sources writes…
> 
> I was flying back from Cyprus, and in the departure area at Akrotiri were a number of soldiers returning from Afghanistan. They were ally ‘d up to the eyeballs – a fortune had been spent at Silverman’s by this lot.
> ...


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## Sub_Guy (24 Nov 2018)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Copy.
> 
> I don't know if it's at this point 'myth, passed into legend', but does anyone have the real story on the RCAF subbie some years ago who, while allegedly posted OJT to 427 squadron, and without yet having earned his RCAF cap badge, was (again allegedly) quite properly wearing his old RCR death star on a blue beret and causing much consternation?



If this is indeed true, then perhaps the individuals responsible for dress should spend less time fucking around with gloves and toques (not in the dress manual btw) and crack down on asshats who try to push the limits.

From the dress manual.  “Component and Occupational Transfers. Members who have previously been qualified in their former occupation shall wear the cap badge of their new branch effective on the date of their component or occupational transfer.”


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## OldSolduer (24 Nov 2018)

As an aside are you now allowed to wear fleece toques in garrison or must you still sport “toque, OD itchy scratchy “? 😉


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## Good2Golf (24 Nov 2018)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Copy.
> 
> I don't know if it's at this point 'myth, passed into legend', but does anyone have the real story on the RCAF subbie some years ago who, while allegedly posted OJT to 427 squadron, and without yet having earned his RCAF cap badge, was (again allegedly) quite properly wearing his old RCR death star on a blue beret and causing much consternation?



It was one day, and more a lark than anything, and he had the eagle on the day after.  Not sure how much consternation there could have been, given the only other guys sporting the ‘Death Star’ at the Squadron were not of the ‘get wound up trying to enforce highly personalized interpretations of vague and conflicting dress regs’ ilk. 

Regards
G2G


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## Eagle_Eye_View (24 Nov 2018)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> As an aside are you now allowed to wear fleece toques in garrison or must you still sport “toque, OD itchy scratchy “? 😉



Not sure about the CA but the RCAF wear the fleece blue tuque with operational dress. The older light blue scratchy one is for DEU only.


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## LightFighter (24 Nov 2018)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> As an aside are you now allowed to wear fleece toques in garrison or must you still sport “toque, OD itchy scratchy “? 😉



The Army issues a fleece toque now.


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## dapaterson (24 Nov 2018)

Rumour has it that the CO of one Tac Hel squadron got a custom rank patch made up for his CADPAT: an Air Force blue pip and crown.  Allegedly, the Army didn't know any better, and the RCAF just assumed it was correct...


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## Good2Golf (24 Nov 2018)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Rumour has it that the CO of one Tac Hel squadron got a custom rank patch made up for his CADPAT: an Air Force blue pip and crown.  Allegedly, the Army didn't know any better, and the RCAF Commander just assumed it was correct...


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## Sub_Guy (24 Nov 2018)

Eagle Eye View said:
			
		

> Not sure about the CA but the RCAF wear the fleece blue tuque with operational dress. The older light blue scratchy one is for DEU only.



Fuck that noise.  Wear the Yukon cap!


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## dapaterson (24 Nov 2018)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> Fuck that noise.  Wear the Yukon cap!



With CADPAT.

When you're a sailor.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadianForces/comments/7xwhb2/i_want_to_wear_the_yukon_hat_too/


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## OldSolduer (24 Nov 2018)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> With CADPAT.
> 
> When you're a sailor.
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadianForces/comments/7xwhb2/i_want_to_wear_the_yukon_hat_too/



He needs a hammer and sickle.......


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## PuckChaser (24 Nov 2018)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> He needs a hammer and sickle.......


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## OldSolduer (24 Nov 2018)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

>



Da Comrade Marko Ramius😉


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## Pusser (26 Nov 2018)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> As an aside are you now allowed to wear fleece toques in garrison or must you still sport “toque, *OD* itchy scratchy “? 😉



My toque is black.  It's always fashionable - for operational dress.  Wearing it in service dress is an abomination!


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## Lumber (26 Nov 2018)

Pusser said:
			
		

> My toque is black.  It's always fashionable - for operational dress.  Wearing it in service dress is an abomination!



Fashionable, smashionable. If it's -25 degree with the winds blowing in Halifax, I'm not wearing my peak-cap with my 3Cs, I'm wearing my touque. 

Also, the chart, for which this thread is name, does not actually solve the GLOVE portion of this great conundrum. 

The argument still remains that you cannot wear gloves with NCDs unless you are wearing an overcoat. I would argue that you can wear gloves with your NCD jacket alone (and many would disagree, but that's how I read the dress regs, unless they've been updated since I last had this argument).


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## Eye In The Sky (26 Nov 2018)

I wear a hat if my head is cold.  I wear gloves if my hands are cold.  I wear a hat and gloves if my hands and head are cold.  Sometimes I wear my wedge and gloves.  I feel, at age 48, I am capable of making basic decisions like this without guidance...


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## Lumber (26 Nov 2018)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I wear a hat if my head is cold.  I wear gloves if my hands are cold.  I wear a hat and gloves if my hands and head are cold.  Sometimes I wear my wedge and gloves.  I feel, at age 48, I am capable of making basic decisions like this without guidance...



Exactly! When you have your NCD jacket on, you have 3 layers on (T-shirt, NCD Shirt, NCD Jacket), but apparently it has to be cold enough to warrant putting on an overcoat before you're justified in saying "hey, my body is warm, but I'd like something on my hands and ears, please".


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## Eye In The Sky (26 Nov 2018)

I've yet to see this "toque and glove" stuff in anything above an attachment from a high ranking NCM;  I'm aware that NCMs advise and enforce dress policy, but the Commander (CO, Wing Commander, etc) is the actual authority who must sign off on dress policy (Chap 1 of 265 details it all out).  Unless I see it in 265, Wing Dress Instructions, etc...I'll continue to exercise my decision-making ability.   8)


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## Colin Parkinson (26 Nov 2018)

Brihard said:
			
		

> It pleased a lot of people.
> 
> But he did nothing wrong. There was no dress reg not being enforced. That was his appropriate headdress as a member of a regiment which wore that as their garrison headdress for NCOs. Does it look weird as hell? Yes. Was it silly? Yes. But it was 100% legit. The fact that nobody in times past foresaw toons leaning out the side door of helicopters, and consequently never wrote dress regs to prevent the Glengarry/flight suit fiasco was not his problem.
> 
> It's too bad he didn't wear it while flying. There would have been something majestic about those two black tassels flapping in the wind from behind a side mounted minigun...



Even better wearing his kilt while manning the doorgun, but only in summer....


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## Colin Parkinson (26 Nov 2018)

Brihard said:
			
		

> It pleased a lot of people.
> 
> But he did nothing wrong. There was no dress reg not being enforced. That was his appropriate headdress as a member of a regiment which wore that as their garrison headdress for NCOs. Does it look weird as hell? Yes. Was it silly? Yes. But it was 100% legit. The fact that nobody in times past foresaw toons leaning out the side door of helicopters, and consequently never wrote dress regs to prevent the Glengarry/flight suit fiasco was not his problem.
> 
> It's too bad he didn't wear it while flying. There would have been something majestic about those two black tassels flapping in the wind from behind a side mounted minigun...



Even better wearing his kilt while manning the doorgun, but only in summer....


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## Kat Stevens (26 Nov 2018)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I wear a hat if my head is cold.  I wear gloves if my hands are cold.  I wear a hat and gloves if my hands and head are cold.  Sometimes I wear my wedge and gloves.  I feel, at age 48, I am capable of making basic decisions like this without guidance...



Yeah, but you're a badass war fightin flyboy with a go to hell attitude and a jaunty tilt to your hat. I bet you have a Col Hogan jacket, 50 mission cap, and white silk scarf stashed somewhere on your war bird, amIright?


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## dimsum (26 Nov 2018)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Yeah, but you're a badass war fightin flyboy with a go to hell attitude and a jaunty tilt to your hat. I bet you have a Col Hogan jacket, 50 mission cap, and white silk scarf stashed somewhere on your war bird, amIright?



I wish we had the option to buy those jackets instead of the current leather one.  I'd get one.  

Even better if they were issued like in some other militaries!


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## Eye In The Sky (26 Nov 2018)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Yeah, but you're a badass war fightin flyboy with a go to hell attitude and a jaunty tilt to your hat. I bet you have a Col Hogan jacket, 50 mission cap, and white silk scarf stashed somewhere on your war bird, amIright?



Hmmm.  Nope.

Wait...we have warbirds?  

* edit - I might have an attitude...but not from being a badass flyboy (I don't think the RCAF allows those types of people these days...they're too aggressive!  We want people focused on diversity and inclusion, not focused on silly things like operationally effective and/or capable!)  .  I'm getting old, I have to use glasses to see my phone and TV remotes...so I think I'm just getting cranky with age.   :nod:


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