# Wanted for CF:  "Commercial-off-the-shelf Precision (7.62 mm) Weapons"



## The Bread Guy (23 Jul 2014)

This via the public tendering site:


> The Department of National Defence (DND) has a requirement for the provision of commercial-off-the-shelf Precision (7.62 mm) Weapons ....


Some technical details from the bid documents here (PDF via dropbox.com)

Info on what appear to be previous tries here (Jan 2013) and here (Mar 2013).


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## KevinB (25 Jul 2014)

:nod:


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## Rocky Mountains (25 Jul 2014)

So where are the C1s?


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## medicineman (25 Jul 2014)

KevinB said:
			
		

> :nod:



Kevin - do you really think they'll go with something not made in Quebec, Ontario or by Western Star?   

MM


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## KevinB (28 Jul 2014)

Rocky Mountains said:
			
		

> So where are the C1s?



Precision...

Also all the C1's are long gone.


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## Ostrozac (28 Jul 2014)

So they want an AR-10(T) or HK417 (or something very similar) with a supressor and 1 MOA accuracy.

Seems a pretty straight forward contract --so what's the backstory? Why has this been going on since Jan 2013? Is the import/export of supressors too much paperwork? Or is this just way too small a contract for anybody to bother with?


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## Mr. St-Cyr (28 Jul 2014)

Competition is going to be fierce.


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## Old EO Tech (28 Jul 2014)

Ok so while I fully understand the spec on the SOR, what role are we buying a suppressed 7.62 AR based accurate weapon for?


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## BadgerTrapper (28 Jul 2014)

Old EO Tech said:
			
		

> Ok so while I fully understand the spec on the SOR, what role are we buying a suppressed 7.62 AR based accurate weapon for?



I hate to immediately jump to the Secret squirrel answer, but the only answers I can up with are

a.) For CSOR, JTF2 etc. 

B.)Attempting to replace the C3A1 with a more modern weapon?

Purely speculation on my part, makes sense in my mind though.  :2c:


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## medicineman (28 Jul 2014)

Designated marksman role?


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## x_para76 (28 Jul 2014)

The Brits did something similar and purchased a designated sharp shooter rifle. The L129A1 produced by Lewis Machine and Tool is 7.62mm and comes with an Acog. Perhaps this is the route the CF is going?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Machine_and_Tool_Company#L129A1


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## dapaterson (28 Jul 2014)

BadgerTrapper said:
			
		

> I hate to immediately jump to the Secret squirrel answer, but the only answers I can up with are
> 
> a.) For CSOR, JTF2 etc.
> 
> ...



Ref your B: The C3A1 is already being replaced.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C14_Timberwolf_rifle


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## Old EO Tech (29 Jul 2014)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Ref your B: The C3A1 is already being replaced.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C14_Timberwolf_rifle



I would say the C14 supplemented the C3A1, we still have C3A1's along side the C14, in fact we just upgraded the rails and scope on some C3A1's to make using them as a training rifle more closely aligned to the reticule used in the other more advanced rifles.


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## Ostrozac (29 Jul 2014)

Our snipers used the AR-10(T) in Kandahar -- I think it was a IOR or UOR -- I'm not sure the distinction -- I mean that it was bought specifically for the mission. The guys I talked to said it was a great tool in the toolbox for some missions, some roles. And since the weapons bought as IOR/UOR worked, it does make sense to expand it to a full capability.

I'm just disappointed that something as simple as "we want some rifles, just like the ones we had in Kandahar" can turn into a multi-year procurement.


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## MilEME09 (29 Jul 2014)

Old EO Tech said:
			
		

> I would say the C14 supplemented the C3A1, we still have C3A1's along side the C14, in fact we just upgraded the rails and scope on some C3A1's to make using them as a training rifle more closely aligned to the reticule used in the other more advanced rifles.



yeah but once your C3 breaks its done, no more parts in the system, and we cant get more last i heard which is why we got the C14


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## dapaterson (29 Jul 2014)

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> Our snipers used the AR-10(T) in Kandahar -- I think it was a IOR or UOR -- I'm not sure the distinction -- I mean that it was bought specifically for the mission. The guys I talked to said it was a great tool in the toolbox for some missions, some roles. And since the weapons bought as IOR/UOR worked, it does make sense to expand it to a full capability.
> 
> I'm just disappointed that something as simple as "we want some rifles, just like the ones we had in Kandahar" can turn into a multi-year procurement.



The problem with that - people start buying small quantities and then using that small purchase to justify doing another, much larger sole-source.

In theory, it should be easy to define the characteristics we want and then ask industry "What have you got?"  The new defence procurement strategy wants industry engagement earlier in the process, to identify not only what they have, but what they are planning.  That should enable the ability to get more up to date equipment - and not something that was state of the art ten years ago when the first draft of the spec was written.


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## KevinB (29 Jul 2014)

If one has access to the SOW, look at the changes as to why this may have been re-done.

I'm bound by NDA, but lets just say this was not an issue by Manufacturer, or the CF in the previous attempt...


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## Old EO Tech (29 Jul 2014)

KevinB said:
			
		

> If one has access to the SOW, look at the changes as to why this may have been re-done.
> 
> I'm bound by NDA, but lets just say this was not an issue by Manufacturer, or the CF in the previous attempt...



Anyone with DWAN access can look at the CID, I didn't have time today, but shall try tomorrow.


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## Old EO Tech (29 Jul 2014)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> yeah but once your C3 breaks its done, no more parts in the system, and we cant get more last i heard which is why we got the C14



Parts are limited that is true.  But I believe we can still get some barrels if they are shot out.  But yes the C3's are on their death bed.


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