# Medal for Domestic Operation?



## John Nayduk (19 Mar 2005)

Anybody know anything more about this?
http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/3/parlbus/chambus/house/bills/private/c-514/c-514_1/C-514_cover-E.html
Sorry just posting the link, it's a long document.


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## Grunt_031 (19 Mar 2005)

Funny we already have a Special Service Medal. 



> The Special Service Medal (SSM) was created to recognize members of the Canadian Forces who are taking part in activities and operations under exceptional circumstances.
> 
> ELIGIBILITY & CRITERIA
> 
> The Special Service Medal (SSM) recognizes members of the Canadian Forces (CF) who have performed a service determined to be under exceptional circumstances, in a clearly defined locality for a specified duration. The SSM recognizes approved activities underway on 11 June 1984 or subsequently established. This medals is always issued with a bar that specifies the special service being recognized, each bar having its own criteria.




Seems like a waste of effort and money. Maybe another bar to the SSM ie "Domestic Operations". Alert is already included and is a domestic op. 


Sounds like the people that stay in Canada have been whining again to their MP's again. Can't be a hero to the ladies, without gongs on your chest.


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## Baloo (19 Mar 2005)

Hold on, hold on. 

Are they trying to tell us that the Toronto Snowstorm dig-out was not worthy of a medal? 

EDIT:  ;D


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## Spanky (19 Mar 2005)

It does seem to be a bit much.  I was on Op Recuperation, and I don't think it warrants a medal.  It was not that big a deal.


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## Armymedic (19 Mar 2005)

Wait a sec....
I can't recall the names of the Ops for the Winnepeg Floods or the ice storm in Jan 98...

But I do recall people including myself working long hard hours away from home, in more austere conditions then most people see overseas. I have been in Ops overseas, and I worked harder, put in more sacrifice, and did more good on those two particular domestic ops, then I have in any of my overseas tours....

If the gov't is willing to give a bar on the SSM for domestic ops...then they should. And they should qualify specific ops to be eligible after the disaster is completed.


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## Grunt_031 (19 Mar 2005)

Why don't we have all our Ops, exercises and courses stitched on the back of our tunics. I have been exercises that I was worked harder than some of the domestic ops that have occurred. 


It is nice to be recognized for the work we do, but I think that we are getting a bit carried away the awards and honours.


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## Armymedic (19 Mar 2005)

No, not my point.

Specifec large scale, longer term (one month or more) domestic ops in support of national disasters, like those I meantioned above, should be/ could be reconized with a SSM bar.


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## George Wallace (20 Mar 2005)

Next we'll be like the Russians who have medals and Decorations for their Exercises.  Wonder what the Medals for all those Reforger Exercises in Germany will look like.....maybe a great big honking NATO Star on a ribbon to be worn around your neck,  ....and RV Medals will all be seperate years marked on FMC Badges.......And BTE can be Smilie Faces......Do you realize we will all have to wear Great Coats in order to fit all these medals on...  ;D


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## ZipperHead (20 Mar 2005)

I'm in agreement with George et al who think it's getting pretty silly. What constitutes a suitable duration? 7 days, 14 days, 30 days????? Was it cold (ice storm, Juan), was it hot (forest fires), was it wet (floods)???? I did Op Grizzly, and I carried live rounds and had real live ROE's, and it isn't mentioned, plus physically, it was one of the most demanding things I've done (we were dismounted on a mountain side). I don't think it merits a medal. How about Oka, FLQ crisis, Y2K, etc. Where would it end????

As it is, they are handing out commendations of all stripes and colours for basically doing your job. I know of a guy who has 3 different commendations, and are all basically work or volunteer job related. Soviet era war heros, here we come.......

The fruit salad style of ribbons like the Americans have is the next stop, where you lose track of what they mean. When I joined, if you had one medal, it was a big deal, now 6, 7, or 8 is fairly common. Let's keep them meaningful, so they actually mean something, and aren't the source of shame or derision.

Al


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## vangemeren (20 Mar 2005)

I'm not disagreeing with anyone here but,



> When I joined, if you had one medal, it was a big deal, now 6, 7, or 8 is fairly common.



Now is that due to the issuing of medals just for the heck of it or is the fact that the forces are stretched so thin, the soldiers are going on more tours getting more medals? When I'm back home sometimes for remembrance day, I see some of the younger soldiers with 2-3 medals even before they get their CD. (and no they aren't the 125 medal or the Queen's Jubilee)


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## Gunner98 (20 Mar 2005)

A reminder of names of the Ops:

Operation PEREGRINE lasted 45 days and involved more than 2,600 soldiers, sailors and Air Force personnel from across the country (including about 900 Reservists). It was the CF's third-largest recent domestic operation, after the 1998 ice storm (Operation RECUPERATION ) and the 1997 Red River flood (Operation ASSISTANCE ). 

Operation SUPPORT 
Canadian Forces activities directly after the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. 

Source: http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/operations/past_ops_e.asp
http://www.dnd.ca/site/operations/past_ops_e.asp


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## ZipperHead (20 Mar 2005)

Not that I've researched it, but we were told (repeatedly....) that Op Grizzly was the largest domestic operation sice the FLQ crisis. I don't know what parameters they use to determine these things, and searching the DND site is like death, so I'm not going to spend any time doing that.

As for the number of medals soldiers have, yes a lot of that has to do with the increased number of missions (fair enough) but the CPSM (peacekeeping medal), SSM (mainly for Germany and Alert), the 125 and Queens Jubilee have added to the medal count of a lot of soldiers who have never been on tour. Yes, domestic operations are dangerous (there was a engineer who lost a hand due to electricution on the Red River Floods), but I don't think anybody disputes that. My OC a few years back (Major Mariner) died while on a course in the UK (vehicle rollover), and we had 3 other soldiers die in our regt in my tenure there (vehicle accident, training accident,suicide). Life in the army (navy, air foce) is tough, and we are thanked every two weeks in the form of a paycheck, and we don't need any more cloth and metal to acknowledge that we do our jobs.

Al


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## the 48th regulator (20 Mar 2005)

> As for the number of medals soldiers have, yes a lot of that has to do with the increased number of missions (fair enough) but the CPSM (peacekeeping medal), SSM (mainly for Germany and Alert), the 125 and Queens Jubilee have added to the medal count of a lot of soldiers who have never been on tour.




You have had to serve on a U.N tour to receive the CPSM.

tess


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## pbi (20 Mar 2005)

I'm against medals for Dom Ops, and I've been on a few. Firefighters do not get a medal every they go to a multiple alarm blaze or other dangerous civil emergency-why should we expect to get medals for equivalent duty? (And, let's be brutally honest, with the exception of PEREGRINE, most of our Dom Ops are not as dangerous as what firefighters face on a weekly basis...) As far as I am concerned, medals should be for operations overseas where there is a reasonable expectation of contact with the enemy or risk to life. Long service medals are fine (and have a long pedigree in HM Forces) but I find the Jubilee a rather silly medal that should have been given to everybody or nobody.

Cheers.


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## Acorn (20 Mar 2005)

"If you want the Iron Cross so badly you can have one of mine."


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## the 48th regulator (20 Mar 2005)

Sweet,

for free or do I have to pay?  I am signed up with paypal.

hehehe

BTW I shoveled the snow in T.O, talk about working under hostile conditions.  Imagine going around looking like the Micheline man, with a shovel in yer hand, all around the neighbourhoods  you consider your stomping grounds...

A medal well deserved

tess


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## Fishbone Jones (20 Mar 2005)

OOOO, and what about the Olympics. Biggest Op we had since Korea, at that time.


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## pbi (20 Mar 2005)

recceguy said:
			
		

> OOOO, and what about the Olympics. Biggest Op we had since Korea, at that time.



Yes I've always wanted to be an Olympic medallist.




> BTW I shoveled the snow in T.O, talk about working under hostile conditions.  Imagine going around looking like the Micheline man, with a shovel in yer hand, all around the neighbourhoods  you consider your stomping grounds...
> 
> A medal well deserved



Eastern wussy! Try manly winters like we have here in Winnipeg! Snowplows have to have periscopes!

Cheers.


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## Fishbone Jones (21 Mar 2005)

;D


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## John Nayduk (21 Mar 2005)

Here's the scoop from my MP.
Thanks you for your letter and question about Bill C-514.

In reference to Bill C-514, it is no longer on the table for discussion.
It was introduced in April of last year before the election was called.
In this new session of Parliament, it has not (as of yet) been
re-introduced. 

If you have any further questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to
contact us at your convenience.

Regards,

Melanie Namespetra

Melanie Namespetra
Parliamentary Assistant 
to Brian Masse MP
Room 701 Justice Building, 
House of Commons
Ottawa, Ontario   K1A 0A6   
P.(613) 996-1541
F.(613) 992-5397

Everyone can breathe easier now.


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## Gunner (21 Mar 2005)

Not so fast ANG!

The bill disappeared when parliament was dissolved last year, however, Ms McDonough intends to reintroduce the bill today:



> At the moment, Ms. McDonough has not yet introduced it. She has given notice
> of a bill by that title (it sits at no. 11 on the Order of Business;
> http://www.parl.gc.ca/38/1/parlbus/chambus/house/orderpaper/071_2005-03-21/orddb071-E.html)
> and she may introduce it during the Daily Routine of Business at any time.
> ...



Quote from Andrew Chaplain as mentioned on can.community.military newsgroup.


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## John Nayduk (21 Mar 2005)

Well holy jumping...


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## Ex-Dragoon (21 Mar 2005)

I know if the decide to give a medal for _Op Persistance  _ that is one I could do without.  :-[


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## S McKee (21 Mar 2005)

A medal for dom ops.....the wieners that DAG red every six months and those that spend their whole career in a cubicle in NDHQ must be dancing a jig, just think they'll get a medal to mount next to that lonely CD and they never had to leave the country.


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## TCBF (21 Mar 2005)

"Hold on, hold on. 

Are they trying to tell us that the Toronto Snowstorm dig-out was not worthy of a medal? "

I always thought it was an act of sarcastic brilliance for a - at the time - largely tracked Army to send wheeled vehicles to help a city in a snowstorm.   The bureaucratic equivalent of laughing at another man's penis.   The real bust-a-gut was, they didn't get the joke: they actually thought we took their plight seriously.   I understand that a lot of new Canadians can be awed by our winters, but that's why we put good leaders in city hall, right?   To lead?

Tom

Added p.s to George Wallace: Now, George, you know the official FALLEX/REFORGER medal is a Heineken can!


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## bossi (21 Mar 2005)

I've always found it ironic that the first time I was shot at (also had a Molotov cocktail thrown in my direction) ... was on a Dom Op ... (plus, my participation totalled three months - thus allowing me to chuckle at others who got gongs for only 30 days of not getting shot at ...)

Dom Ops are an opportunity to "do our thing" under the watchful eye of our corporate sponsors - the Canadian taxpayers ...

IMHO belittling Dom Ops can lead to skewed priorities, where "away games" are worth more points than "home games".   Let's face it - a win is a win, whether it's on the road or at home - however, while we strive to avoid losing "on the road" ... we need to remember that "losing at home" is not an option (i.e. unlike hockey, the winner gets to keep the arena ...).


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## Cpl.Banks (21 Mar 2005)

Just outa curiosity do cadet years count for a service medal? I had heard rumors that it does, wich is pretty ridculous, are there any medals that cadets get awarded that can be worn on a CF (army) uniform?
UBIQUE!!!!


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## pbi (21 Mar 2005)

> IMHO belittling Dom Ops can lead to skewed priorities, where "away games" are worth more points than "home games".   Let's face it - a win is a win, whether it's on the road or at home - however, while we strive to avoid losing "on the road" ... we need to remember that "losing at home" is not an option (i.e. unlike hockey, the winner gets to keep the arena ...).



I wasn't intending to belittle Dom Ops, but I don't agree with inflating them either. Under what conditions would we give a medal for a Dom Op? To me it is the thin end of the wedge forr a "fruit salad" chest on people who have never gone overseas, unless we are talking about some situation so cataclysmic that the nation is threatened. To me the "away games" _are_ more important for us as a military, unless the day comes that we actually conduct combat operations in our own country. When we go out on a Dom Op we are not carrying out our primary function (even to the extent that some   of the lower threat PSOs represent this...)--we are picking up the slack because civil authorities are either inadequately prepared or are overwhelmed, and Canada has no organized Civil Defense Service.

It is great stuff, and I got a good feeling from all of the ones I've been involved in (well.....most of them....) but to me it just does not deserve a medal. 

Cheers


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## S McKee (22 Mar 2005)

I'll have to agree with PBI on this one bossi, unless we're defending the motherland from the Godless Red Hordes you're pushing the envelope for a medal for fighting forest fires and flood relief. And what about the members who provided support for those fighting the flood waters/ice storm back at the ASG/ASU, do they get a medal too?  Remember all the support guys that went to Florida during the first mission to Afghanistan they got the same medal as the troops on the ground fighting the Taliban. The boys were a little pissed off.  Like it or not our bread and butter are the "away games"


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## George Wallace (22 Mar 2005)

Cpl Banks

Your question has been answered on other threads.....we will not go there here.   (Answer is NO)

I always felt proud not to have so many medals as those in other the Service of other Nations.   I felt that what we had were of more value and meant more.   Getting a Medal or a Ribbon for hygiene in the field, or Marksmanship, as found in the US was too much like the Boy Scouts Merit Badge system.   If Medals are what it takes to make you a Soldier, then something is wrong.   Besides, as has already been pointed out, the Government is very slow in producing them and even slower in passing them out.   Leave the Awards System as it is, my chest isn't big enough to carry useless crap.   It looks really ugly when a row of medals are worn on a shirt in the summer and they droop down at a 30 degree angle - yeah I know with digital cameras and Photo editing they can be straightened out....but.......

Next Question:   How far back are they going to go with this?   How will former members (in the thousands) get their medals for all of these Dominion Ops that they partook in?   Who even bothered to keep those records?


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## Infanteer (22 Mar 2005)

I agree with George - I remember reading a personal anecdote of an American with 4 rows of ribbons who met a British peer who had 3 medals for 3 wars; the American said he never felt so silly with his fruit salad.

I really feel the less medals the better - then it means the ones that we do get mean more.  Other then that it is just extra junk on a guys chest to puff up his professional bearing or something.  My NATO medal may have been a largely "constabulary" affair, but it was a foreign operation against a potentially hostile force, so it means something in terms of what I've been able to do in the service of my country.  Honestly, I am considering taking my CPSM off the next time I send them in, as to me it is a "thanks for coming out" type affair.

Mark raises a very good issue about some Domestic Ops being quite dangerous - I've been on one where we loaded up and literally conducted armed patrols (Grizzly) - luckily, the biggest danger was prowling cougars and rowdy Mounties, but the potential was there.  Does getting ammo and facing the potential of danger constitute deserving a medal?  Well, considering that there has been incidents with weapons escorts, perhaps my time escorting weapons as a reservist warrants recognition?  Poppycock.

Granted, sustained and continual operations against hostile forces in Canada should be properly recognized, just as the NorthWest Rebellion and Batoche are accorded Battle Honours today, but giving medals for guys who push snow around is ridiculous.  I got a nice certificate signed by Jean Chretian for stalking around Kananaskis for a week or so - I'm sure a medal on my chest would have elicited the same response (which was me binning the stupid thing)....


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## bossi (22 Mar 2005)

pbi said:
			
		

> ... unless we are talking about some situation so cataclysmic that the nation is threatened. To me the "away games" _are_ more important for us as a military, unless the day comes that we actually conduct combat operations in our own country. When we go out on a Dom Op we are not carrying out our primary function (even to the extent that some   of the lower threat PSOs represent this...)--we are picking up the slack because civil authorities are either inadequately prepared or are overwhelmed, and Canada has no organized Civil Defense Service.



Our respective opinions aren't that far apart.
I'm prejudiced because I'm considering those occasions where the Army had to step in because the police were overwhelmed through no real fault of their own (i.e. for the sake of argument, maybe civvie police really shouldn't have to contend with large numbers of bad guys who are using assault/military rifles/weapons ...).
Thus, I'm looking at it from the perspective of defending Canada (okay - maybe just a little corner of it) from anarchy (whether from without, or within ...)

Sure - for political reasons, we don't want to start making a habit of conducting "internal security" ops ... but, on those occasions when our Army has to carry live ammunition ... hey - wait a minute - there's one reasonable criteria, perhaps ... (?)

And, I'd also likely to very politely point out that sometimes "the rear party" serves a real purpose, too
(i.e. if the only criteria for "recognition" was overseas service ... then why bother leaving anybody at home in Canada - the CF should then exist only outside of our borders ... okay - I'm getting a little silly, but still ... I don't think it's fair to tar everybody with such a broad brush - i.e. on any given day, some troops are overseas and some are in Canada - it's not always a matter of personal choice as to where or when we serve ...)

Anyway - I don't want us to be polarised on this - I'd rather we move closer to the middle, regardless of which side of the middle we end up on.


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## Sandbag (23 Mar 2005)

IMHO this would be a mistake, if for no other reason than what I see here in the many discussions.  The awarding of such a medal would polarize everyone in the forces, you would either be for it or against and likely with no middle ground.  Recognition for outstanding service/bravery, etc is usually given, and if it isn't it is our collective responsiblity to ensure such service is recognized.  As such for the rest of us average folks, our reward is doing our job well.  Like most here on this forum, I too have done the full gambit: ops, rear party, dom ops and exchange and many times the people you work with day in and day out give you the best reward at the end of your efforts if they are appreciated.  It can be anything from a thanks to a "babble", but if it comes from those you served with, regardless of the mission, it will likely mean the most.  No, I believe that issuing such a medal would cause more heartache than good, as such IMHO it shouldn't be approved.


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## gifrank (23 Mar 2005)

This is just another waste of medal. Like someone else said in this forum. Its someone who cant leave Canada and wants a medal beside his CD.  Working an Ice Storm, or helping a flood raged city, etc is doing YOUR JOB.  Wake up pretty soon we will be like the Americans and get a medal for passing basic training.


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## Gunner (23 Mar 2005)

> This is just another waste of medal. Like someone else said in this forum. Its someone who cant leave Canada and wants a medal beside his CD.



Well, lets remember that this is not an NDHQ driven initiative and it is spearheaded by a politician (NDP).   



> Working an Ice Storm, or helping a flood raged city, etc is doing YOUR JOB.



So is getting paid (12 years gets you a CD), serving with the UN/NATO, or combat operations with the US (Op APOLLO).  By your reasoning, medals shouldn't be given for any reason as you are getting paid to do be a soldier anyway.


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## Poppa (23 Mar 2005)

I don't know about this...as Boss made reference to some of the craziest times I've had was dealing with all 3 confrontations with Natives. Do I want medals? Haven't thought about it. 
Could it be a moral issue some sort of tangable "attaboy". I was talking to guy I worked with overseas and he said for the most part that's what their medals were.

If these things get issued I guess I'll wear it if not I won't lose sleep over it.


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## Teddy Ruxpin (23 Mar 2005)

As others have pointed out, implementing such a medal will cause huge angst.   Most Army areas run multiple dom ops every year - why are only a few (of the more "warm and fuzzy" ones) listed in the Bill's annex?   What about the Air Force?   Their aircraft conduct evac operations of remote villages, SAR, fishery patrols, etc..   What about the Navy's tracking of drug smugglers and assistance to Fisheries Canada?   Where does it end?

I probably worked harder on PEREGRINE than on any overseas operation, but it was for a very limited time and the level of "risk" just was not the same.   Did it deserve a medal?   Probably not.

My $0.02...

TR


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## Gunner (23 Mar 2005)

> I probably worked harder on PEREGRINE than on any overseas operation, but it was for a very limited time and the level of "risk" just was not the same.  Did it deserve a medal?  Probably not.



That's because you were just a "staff" guy.


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## Teddy Ruxpin (23 Mar 2005)

Thanks for reminding me - I was trying to forget!    

Staff officers have feelings too - they just have to reflect the Commander's intent!  ;D


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## Rfn (23 Mar 2005)

Good point:


> I don't know about this...as Boss made reference to some of the craziest times I've had was dealing with all 3 confrontations with Natives.



According to the bill's annex at the bottom, the list doesn't seem complete...

Oka, Gustavson Lake or any other aid to civil power ops aren't included. Nor does OP Grizzly rate a medal.

Anyone surprised?


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## Infanteer (23 Mar 2005)

All the operations that didn't involve weapons or the need for ROE's.  Maybe instead, they should just give the deserving soldiers Memberships to the Public Service Union.


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## TCBF (23 Mar 2005)

"All the operations that didn't involve weapons or the need for ROE's.   Maybe instead, they should just give the deserving soldiers Memberships to the Public Service Union."

Trolling, are we?   ;D

Tom


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## Infanteer (23 Mar 2005)

Calling a spade a spade Tom (although that may be construed as trolling by some  ).  Essentially, I'm reading the proposal as an award for soldiers going out to rake the lawn and mind the yard - essentially what Canadian public servants do....


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## John Nayduk (23 Mar 2005)

IT's back.   Got introduced today.

Introduction of Private Members' Bills Dépôt de projets de loi émanant des députés 
   
No. 1   No 1   
October 5, 2004 â â€ Mr. Cadman (Surrey North) â â€ Bill entitled â Å“An Act to amend the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act (security)â ?.   5 octobre 2004 â â€ M. Cadman (Surrey-Nord) â â€ Projet de loi intitulé  « Loi modifiant la Loi sur l'immigration et la protection des réfugiés (dépôt de garantie)  ».   
No. 2   No 2   
October 5, 2004 â â€ Mr. Cadman (Surrey North) â â€ Bill entitled â Å“An Act to amend the Criminal Code (blood alcohol content)â ?.   5 octobre 2004 â â€ M. Cadman (Surrey-Nord) â â€ Projet de loi intitulé  « Loi modifiant le Code criminel (taux d'alcoolémie)  ».   
No. 3   No 3   
October 5, 2004 â â€ Mr. Cadman (Surrey North) â â€ Bill entitled â Å“An Act to amend the Corrections and Conditional Release Act (parole hearings)â ?.   5 octobre 2004 â â€ M. Cadman (Surrey-Nord) â â€ Projet de loi intitulé  « Loi modifiant la Loi sur le système correctionnel et la mise en liberté sous condition (audiences de libération conditionnelle)  ».   
No. 4   No 4   
October 5, 2004 â â€ Mr. Martin (Winnipeg Centre) â â€ Bill entitled â Å“An Act to amend the Canadian International Trade Tribunal Act (appointment of permanent members)â ?.   5 octobre 2004 â â€ M. Martin (Winnipeg-Centre) â â€ Projet de loi intitulé  « Loi modifiant la Loi sur le Tribunal canadien du commerce extérieur (nomination des titulaires)  ».   
No. 5   No 5   
October 5, 2004 â â€ Mr. Casey (Cumberlandâ â€Colchesterâ â€Musquodoboit Valley) â â€ Bill entitled â Å“An Act to amend the Public Service Employment Act and the Public Service Employment Act enacted by section 12 of chapter 22 of the Statutes of Canada, 2003 (area of selection)â ?.   5 octobre 2004 â â€ M. Casey (Cumberlandâ â€Colchesterâ â€Musquodoboit Valley) â â€ Projet de loi intitulé  « Loi modifiant la Loi sur l'emploi dans la fonction publique et la Loi sur l'emploi dans la fonction publique édictée par l'article 12 du chapitre 22 des Lois du Canada (2003) (zone de sélection)  ».   
No. 6   No 6   
October 5, 2004 â â€ Mr. Martin (Winnipeg Centre) â â€ Bill entitled â Å“An Act to amend the Competition Act (investigations by Commissioner and class proceedings) and to make a related amendment to another Actâ ?.   5 octobre 2004 â â€ M. Martin (Winnipeg-Centre) â â€ Projet de loi intitulé  « Loi modifiant la Loi sur la concurrence (enquêtes du commissaire et recours collectifs) et une autre loi en conséquence  ».   
No. 7   No 7   
October 14, 2004 â â€ Mr. Cadman (Surrey North) â â€ Bill entitled â Å“An Act to amend the Criminal Code (abduction) and another Act in consequenceâ ?.   14 octobre 2004 â â€ M. Cadman (Surrey-Nord) â â€ Projet de loi intitulé  « Loi modifiant le Code criminel (enlèvement) et une autre loi en conséquence  ».   
No. 8   No 8   
*October 19, 2004 â â€ Ms. McDonough (Halifax) â â€ Bill entitled â Å“An Act respecting the establishment and award of a Special Service Medal for Domestic Operations (SSM-DO)â ?.   19 octobre 2004 â â€ Mme McDonough (Halifax) â â€ Projet de loi intitulé  « Loi prévoyant la création et l'octroi de la médaille du service spécial pour opérations nationales (MSS-ON)  ».   *


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## Infanteer (23 Mar 2005)

It's good to see that Chuck Cadman (the independent) is sticking to his "tough on crime" promises - hmm...a politician who sticks to his guns and represents the interests of his riding (Surrey has a tough time with crime).

As for McDonough's bill, hopefully it gets shot down for the stupid political posturing that it is (look, the NDP got you new medals, vote for us!)....


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## Gunner (23 Mar 2005)

> As for McDonough's bill, hopefully it gets shot down for the stupid political posturing that it is (look, the NDP got you new medals, vote for us!)....



Hmm, when did stupid political posturing every accomplish anything in parliament...oops, bad Liberal election promise in 93, so long Maritime Helicopters....If I was a betting man, make sure you keep your medals handy to turn into clothing stores for medal mounting.


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## Infanteer (23 Mar 2005)

Key caveat - the Liberals were in charge in '93.  

They can keep their medal - I don't think I qualify for it, since my only DomOp involved loaded rifles and ROEs....


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## Teddy Ruxpin (23 Mar 2005)

Yup.   While private members' bills usually flop, what politician is going to vote against "honouring our troops" with a new medal...?  Let's hope that someone has the common sense to change the annex to include the less PC operations and firm up the requirements - otherwise look out... :


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## KevinB (23 Mar 2005)

Make me puke.


 Fine want to honour the tasks - fine Humanitarian Service Bar on the SSM for the Fires/Floods and IceStorm

 Somehow I don't think that some of our other DomOps (with the exception of G8 where the only people to kill anything where the "Conservation" Officers) we want to flash off to people.

 Somehow I think medals for doing drug interdiction and Native Insurection just won't fly...  And honestly those mission where more worthy than the FFI stuff.


Just my thoughts

Kevin


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## bossi (24 Mar 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> Fine want to honour the tasks - fine Humanitarian Service Bar on the SSM for the Fires/Floods and IceStorm
> 
> Somehow I don't think that some of our other DomOps (with the exception of G8 where the only people to kill anything where the "Conservation" Officers) we want to flash off to people.
> 
> Somehow I think medals for doing drug interdiction and Native Insurection just won't fly...   And honestly those mission where more worthy than the FFI stuff.



I'm pretty much in agreement with you - it'll be politically incorrect to issue medals for any dom op that involved live ammo (again - in my personal opinion, it seems so incongruous - not getting a medal for actually being shot at in Canada, but handing out medals for foreign junkets ...)

I second the motion to simply create a "Humanitarian" bar for the SSM - using the KISS principle, perhaps criteria could be "Assistance during a declared emergency" (or is that too common sense?)

Discussing this with some others, it was pointed out there will STILL be some people who won't even qualify for this Dom Op bar (i.e. since they've never even stepped up to the plate ... ever ...).

So, ya know what?  If we take a step back, and "for the sake of argument" accept that a Dom Op bar on the SSM is simply a logical continuation of "recognizing _'special'_ service" ... then maybe it's not the end of the world (and, like I said - there are lurkers out there who've never even been on a Dom Op ...)


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## Poppa (24 Mar 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> Make me puke.
> 
> 
> Fine want to honour the tasks - fine Humanitarian Service Bar on the SSM for the Fires/Floods and IceStorm
> ...



So Kevin does that mean you don't want some flashy gong to commemerate doing the TEAL conf in Ottawa...you know hanging out at the hotel downtown...serious libations every night and inspections each morning.?

Cheers


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## pbi (24 Mar 2005)

So how many of these "bars" would you get? One for each DomOp? Or only for certain DomOps? What role in the Op would entitle you to a bar? Take me, for example: (and I'm really just a pogue...): 76 Olympics, Red River Flood, Southern Ontario Snowstorm, Y2K, Windsor Trade Conference, NATO Defence Ministers, Counter Narcotics, Albanian Refugees, Gustafson Lake, G8, BC Fires. Would I get a bar for each one?

Nope, sorry: I'm not in favour and I would feel silly standing next to a civilian firefighter (especially a volunteer firefighter...) or LEA officer who was on the same DomOp and took it in stride as part of their duties with no medal. We have to keep this medal urge under control or we will be blossoming out like Christmas trees.

Cheers


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## SHELLDRAKE!! (24 Mar 2005)

Or maybee they should issue domestic ops medals to only half of those that were actually there, much like the 125 and jubilee.I think every "gimmee" medal they produce, only makes soldiers look bad.If a general working with american forces, cant truthfully explain why he doesnt have a fruit salad on his chest, maybee he should be thinking more about important things.

  IMHO a soldier issued with a medal that reflects an actual operation/commendation, is much prouder than someone who got a 125 because his uncle was a member of parliament.

  Just my 2 cents.


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## bick (24 Mar 2005)

As silly as this whole thing is, remember, the CPSM started as a private members bill.

Good thing we don't have to pay to have our medals court mounted.


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## bossi (24 Mar 2005)

pbi said:
			
		

> So how many of these "bars" would you get? One for each DomOp? Or only for certain DomOps? What role in the Op would entitle you to a bar? Take me, for example: (and I'm really just a pogue...): 76 Olympics, Red River Flood, Southern Ontario Snowstorm, Y2K, Windsor Trade Conference, NATO Defence Ministers, Counter Narcotics, Albanian Refugees, Gustafson Lake, G8, BC Fires. Would I get a bar for each one?



Ooops - I should have elaborated my stand in this debate.
No, I'd be more in favour of simply one "Humanitarian" or Dom Op bar on the SSM (i.e. "Canada")
(i.e. using the same logic as the CPSM ...)
The "Canada" bar would also avoid "political correct" embarassment for Dom Ops such as Akwesasne, Oka, Gustafson Lake, etc.
(i.e. carrying live ammo within Canada, *being shot at by other Canadians* ...)



			
				pbi said:
			
		

> Nope, sorry: I'm not in favour and I would feel silly standing next to a civilian firefighter (especially a volunteer firefighter...) or LEA officer who was on the same DomOp and took it in stride as part of their duties with no medal. We have to keep this medal urge under control or we will be blossoming out like Christmas trees.



No - as I stated in my earlier post, this criteria would only apply to declared emergencies - i.e. using your example, when civilian firefighters (or police) were overwhelmed ... ergo, _couldn't_ do the job and therefore required extraordinary reinforcement from troops whose primary duty is _NOT_ the same ...

Sorry - I respect your opinion, and as grownups we can agree to disagree, however ... if Parliament enacts this bill, we'd better be prepared to obey lawful orders and come up with some sensible criteria ... and thus I'm trying to come up with a compromise solution that makes sense
(e.g. I agree that it would spiral out of control if we awarded a bar for every Dom Op.  I also feel strongly that it should NOT be an additional medal, but instead it should ONLY be an additional bar to the existing SSM - "Special Service" - as I've said, there are people who've never even stepped up to the plate and participated in a Dom Op ... so, regardless of whether it's because they're shirkers or simply luck of the draw, it becomes "special" when troops have participated in _significant_ Dom Ops ... hmmmm ... wait a minute - as I was typing this, it dawned on me ... I'd be much happier if shirkers had to wear a special badge of shame on their uniform - something like *"I never volunteered to go anywhere, but still got paid the same as and promoted ahead of the troops who did"* ... yup - THAT would make me much happeir ... oh, well ... we all know that'll never happen ...)


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## Infanteer (24 Mar 2005)

Just a question, is one obligated to mount and wear the medals one is awarded?  My guess is if this goes through, guys who don't give a shit could just bin the thing (along with the Jean Chretien signed certificate)....


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## John Nayduk (24 Mar 2005)

I agree with BOSSI.   If we must have something, I think a bar to the current Special Service Medal that says "Domestic Operations" would do.


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## bossi (24 Mar 2005)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Just a question, is one obligated to mount and wear the medals one is awarded?   My guess is if this goes through, guys who don't give a crap could just bin the thing (along with the Jean Chretien signed certificate)....



A thought-provoking question ...
Would you also shred your commissioning scroll, if you didn't happen to like the MND who signed it?
If you felt it to be excessive to wear medals on pde, would you just show up without them?
Or, using the same logic but reversing the "polarity", if you felt a mistake was made and you'd been overlooked for a medal, would you wear a medal you had NOT been awarded?


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## Infanteer (24 Mar 2005)

bossi said:
			
		

> Would you also shred your commissioning scroll, if you didn't happen to like the MND who signed it?



This is a bit of a personal affair - you don't have to wear your commission on your uniform, so you could use it for toilet paper for all I care (although I'm sure it would be uncomfortable).



> If you felt it to be excessive to wear medals on pde, would you just show up without them?
> Or, using the same logic but reversing the "polarity", if you felt a mistake was made and you'd been overlooked for a medal, would you wear a medal you had NOT been awarded?



This is what I'm getting at.   Obviously, wearing something you were not awarded is not good - it is not up to individuals to decide what decorations they are entitled to wear - I could see allowing this to be an exercise in absurdity (and you'd see folks walking around with VC's)

However, what I'm looking for is the legality of the issue - legally, is one required to wear their medals on parade - is this a QR&O?   Or is showing up in your DEU's because the trinkets are sitting in a shoebox good enough?


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## KevinB (24 Mar 2005)

Poppa said:
			
		

> So Kevin does that mean you don't want some flashy gong to commemerate doing the TEAL conf in Ottawa...you know hanging out at the hotel downtown...serious libations every night and inspections each morning.?
> 
> Cheers



 ;D   

I had the shakes for weeks - ah memories...


I agree with PBI in spirit.

If we are beaking off about medals - the CPSM is one to GO.   WTF a medal for getting a medal -- every try to explain that one to kids at a Nov11th school ceremony?   Personally I think they should pull back all the NON-Theatre SWASM's and issue the GSM or that stuff like they do now...   It drives me nuts to think someone got the Afghan Bar and cbt leaf on undress ribbons for sitting in an airconditioned office in XXXXX and Florida.

Of course someone is going to come and remove my Cyprus medal since we where there long after the fighting - and so on and so on...


I'd have much rather gotten paid at the floods and fires in accordance with the risks, ( - real great when your pl is cut in half by fire in Kelowna and you ride around on top of fire trucks for 23hrs...   All for field pay   ???) than some shiny.   I am all for helping our fellow Canadians in need and dont think we need a shiny trinket to show off as payment for our service.   


Infanteer - I know a bunch who binned the CPSM...


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## Infanteer (24 Mar 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> Infanteer - I know a bunch who binned the CPSM...



I think you'll soon see me in that club - maybe I'll sell it on Ebay or something.

I just want to know if someone is going to pull a "out of uniform" stunt if I'm missing it on my DEU's.


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## HollywoodHitman (24 Mar 2005)

Your medals and ribbons are a part of your dress. Proper time, proper place in the proper order of dress. I think the more people talk negatively about various medals, issued for a variety of reasons, whether in their own mind or others, does a disservice. 

People guage in their own mind a sense of accomplishment. Example, some of our soldiers awarded Bronze Stars for their efforts should be unashamed to wear them just because the same medal awarded to others may have been under questionable circumstances. The person who wears it knows in their mind what it took to get there. Good on you. A gimme medal like the CPSM is at least another recognition of service. Better than not being recognised at all. We should be careful not to issue too many gimme's, but at the same time, there is a distinct purpose to the theory behind decorating someone. Acheivement and recognition. Each of us have our own definition. Checks and balances. 

I do enjoy the well thought out and eloquent posts in this forum. I also like ones where someone asks if the US NAVY SEALS are PART OF THE US NAVY.

Brilliant.


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## Infanteer (24 Mar 2005)

HollywoodHitman said:
			
		

> Your medals and ribbons are a part of your dress. Proper time, proper place in the proper order of dress. I think the more people talk negatively about various medals, issued for a variety of reasons, whether in their own mind or others, does a disservice.



Is it a disseverice?  I think "medal culture" is a reasonable topic.  Would it be a "disservice" if were like the Americans and sent soldiers out of Basic with four ribbons on their chest (really, they can have this many).



> We should be careful not to issue too many gimme's, but at the same time, there is a distinct purpose to the theory behind decorating someone. Acheivement and recognition. Each of us have our own definition. Checks and balances.



Yup - and some of us here are saying that this is a case of a "gimme" that should not be given out.


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## bossi (24 Mar 2005)

For crying out loud ...
I just looked up the QR&O, and it dawned on me ...
People wear commemorative medals such as the 125 or Golden Jubilee ... essentially "freebies".
Certainly a "Dom Op" bar has some merit, by comparison ...?



			
				Infanteer said:
			
		

> I think you'll soon see me in that club - maybe I'll sell it on Ebay or something.
> 
> I just want to know if someone is going to pull a "out of uniform" stunt if I'm missing it on my DEU's.



Here's the QR&O - http://admfincs.mil.ca/admfincs/subjects/qr_o/vol1/ch018_e.asp#18.01

If you choose to not wear an honour or decoration that you were awarded, in effect you are electing for forfeit it.
Do you want to be lumped in with the group of people detailed below:

18.27 - FORFEITURE AND RESTORATION OF DECORATIONS AND MEDALS OTHER THAN THOSE AWARDED FOR GALLANTRY AND WAR MEDALS   18.27 - DÉCHÉANCE ET REMISE DE DÉCORATIONS ET MÉDAILLES AUTRES QUE CELLES QUI SONT ACCORDÉES POUR ACTES DE BRAVOURE ET MÉDAILLES DE GUERRE

(1) An officer or non-commissioned member shall forfeit any decoration or medal awarded to the member or to which the member may be entitled for long service, good conduct, efficiency to meritorious service other than gallantry, where the members is:

(1) Un officier ou militaire du rang est déchu de toute décoration ou médaille qui lui a été accordée ou ÃƒÂ  laquelle il peut avoir droit pour cause de longs services, de bonne conduite, de compétence ou de service méritoire autre que la bravoure dans l'un ou l'autre des cas suivants :

 (a) sentenced to death;
    a) il est condamné ÃƒÂ  mort;

 (b) sentenced to dismissal with disgrace from Her Majesty's service;
    b) il est condamné ÃƒÂ  la destitution ignominieuse du service de Sa Majesté;

 (c) sentenced to dismissal from Her Majesty's service; or
    c) il est condamné ÃƒÂ  la destitution du service de Sa Majesté;

 (d) released for misconduct;
    d) il est libéré pour cause d'inconduite.

(2) An officer or non-commissioned member may be ordered by the Minister to forfeit any decoration or medal awarded to the member or to which the member may be entitled for long service, good conduct, efficiency or meritorious service other than gallantry, where the member is:
   (2) Un officier ou militaire du rang peut recevoir du ministre l'ordre d'abandonner toute décoration ou médaille qui lui a été accordée ou ÃƒÂ  laquelle il peut avoir droit pour cause de longs services, de bonne conduite, de compétence ou de service méritoire autre que la bravoure dans l'un ou l'autre des cas suivants :

 (a) convicted by a civil authority of any serious offence; or
    a) il est reconnu coupable par une autorité civile d'une infraction grave;

 (b) convicted of an offence of treason, sedition, mutiny, cowardice, desertion or a disgraceful offence against morality;
    b) il est reconnu coupable d'une infraction de trahison, sédition, mutinerie, lâcheté, désertion ou d'une infraction grave contre la morale.


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## HollywoodHitman (24 Mar 2005)

Infanteer.....

I'm not disagreeing on either point. I'm simply saying that we need to be careful with how they're issued and conceived. I don't personally care. Someone wants to give me tin, great, they don't, great........Starbucks coffee still costs me 5 bucks whether I have tin or not. 

You're entitled to pitch your CPSM or Jubilee, or not. Some people are proud of their tin because it represents something they've accomplished that we may not be aware of. Who knows. I'm gonna hop on the bandwagon with Bossi and say if they're gonna do this, dont create a new medal, just a bar of some kind. I can't see it happening anyway. I don't get medals when I go into fires or to car accidents.......But some people do. Good on 'em. Didn't cost me a thing.


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## Infanteer (24 Mar 2005)

bossi said:
			
		

> For crying out loud ...
> I just looked up the QR&O, and it dawned on me ...
> People wear commemorative medals such as the 125 or Golden Jubilee ... essentially "freebies".
> Certainly a "Dom Op" bar has some merit, by comparison ...?



I felt the 125 and the Jubliee were stupid as well, and I voiced that here.

At least the "Dom Op" bar (and your proposal of a single bar is certainly better then the proposed medal) requires one to go out and do something for it - however, I just don't believe shovelling snow or wandering around K-country is enough to warrant it.   You've brought up some cases of armed intervention and I think, like the North-West Rebellion, there is precedent for awarding this if the action is significant enough. 

As for the QR&O you listed, I'm reading it and I don't see how it would apply to a soldier who doesn't wear the medals he is awarded - it looks to be a regulation for revoking shitheads of their awards if they commit a crime.

We awarded soldiers with "Contingent Commanders coins" on my ROTO and I don't see them having to mount and wear those on their uniforms.



			
				HollywoodHitman said:
			
		

> I'm not disagreeing on either point. I'm simply saying that we need to be careful with how they're issued and conceived. I don't personally care. Someone wants to give me tin, great, they don't, great........Starbucks coffee still costs me 5 bucks whether I have tin or not.



You're right - medals are what one makes of them in the end.



> You're entitled to pitch your CPSM or Jubilee, or not.



This is what I'd like to know, if I'm able to do so or if I'll get in trouble for not having my DEU's match the "Entitlement" section of my Pers File.

Personally, I liked what I once read David Hackworth say - you could pitch every medal and award and just hand-out CIB's and guys would be happy.


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## SHELLDRAKE!! (24 Mar 2005)

I suppose if this medal is awarded, it will simply go as another "gimmee" medal along with jubilee cpsm and 125 that we will refer to the next time a new "gimee" medal is thought up.Maybee what we need is a pre emptive petition to the government stating what members of the CF really think of these "token" medals.


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## bossi (24 Mar 2005)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> As for the QR&O you listed, I'm reading it and I don't see how it would apply to a soldier who doesn't wear the medals he is awarded - it looks to be a regulation for revoking shitheads of their awards if they commit a crime.
> 
> We awarded soldiers with "Contingent Commanders coins" on my ROTO and I don't see them having to mount and wear those on their uniforms.



The parallel I'm attempting to draw may be obtuse, however ... your proposed future career requires you to look at more than one angle ...

Okay, I'll take another run at it:
Three soldiers are on parade.   All three soldiers were awarded the same medal.
Soldier #1 wears his medal as awarded IAW with QR&O.
Soldier #2 forfeits his medal because he did something bad, and therefore is not wearing his medal.
Soldier #3 chooses to not wear his medal, awarded to him on behalf of Her Majesty.

To the naked eye, what is the difference between Soldiers #2 and #3?   (the answer is none)
And so, my earlier point was:   What do you want to look like?
A soldier who forfeited his medal for doing something bad, or a soldier who did his duty ... ?


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## Infanteer (24 Mar 2005)

bossi said:
			
		

> To the naked eye, what is the difference between Soldiers #1 and #2?   (the answer is none)



Lol - did you mean "the difference between #2 and #3?



> And so, my earlier point was:   What do you want to look like?
> A soldier who forfeited his medal for doing something bad, or a soldier who did his duty ... ?



I've got the "Former Yugo" one sitting there to let everybody know my limited CV.

I was more aiming for the following scenarion:

Soldier 1 is awarded the gimmee
Soldier 2 is not awarded the gimmee (say, the Golden Jubilee)

Soldier one treasures it and frames it instead of wearing it on his uniform - they both look the same on the parade square but, in the end, appearence is irrelevent because they are both solid performers and have a rack of medals from overseas deployments on their chests....



I have no stake in this (I'm not eligible for the award as the criteria on the Bill states), I'm only pressing this because I'm curious to know if not wearing an award is manifestly illegal (according to the QR&O) or is deeply frowned upon by RSMs or CO's - which KevinB's statement seems to indicate is not the case.


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## bossi (24 Mar 2005)

Yup - I corrected my post.

So, with respect to the debate of recognising one type of service and not recognising another type of service ... I think there are some principles to be digested:  Respect, Equitability, and Credibility.

Certainly, I'd venture my personal opinion that the Army's original decision to award the Golden Jubilee to "everybody" (i.e. similar to Britain) made much more sense than the lottery than transpired ...

Yes - Credibility is certainly the sore point in this discussion.




> (3) The principles to be observed in instituting honours are as follows:
> (3) Les principes ÃƒÂ  observer lors de l'institution de nouvelles distinctions honorifiques sont :
> 
> (a) compatibility - any specific proposal must be compatible with the existing system of Canadian decorations;
> ...


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## Infanteer (24 Mar 2005)

Sounds good to me Mark.  I guess all of us are bitter with the DOM OPS (as proposed in the bill) medal as it seems to be awarded for matters which most of us would consider to *"represent routine duty"*, thus, as you pointed out, contravening credibility.

Most of the other Gimmee's contravene "equitability", so we can justify trashing how they were distributed. 

My earlier qualm with the CPSM is that it contravenes "duplication" in that we are awarding an action that has already received recognition with an existing national decoration (in my case, the NATO medal - its not a "national" medal, but it is recognized in the awards system).

Perhaps we should email that list to Ms. McDonough?


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## Gunner (24 Mar 2005)

I'm going to provide the minority opinion.  I think the awarding of the Special Service Medal with a "Service in Canada Bar" or something along those lines would be suitable for awarding for most of the larger domestic operations in Canada.  Certainly the criteria for the award would need some clarification in terms of which domestic operations would be approved for eligibility purposes.  Aid to the Civil Power and aid to a lawful authority are certainly given in my books.  It becomes murky when you get into provision of services (ie supporting the RCMP based on a request - which in essence Op GRIZZLY was).

Unfortunately the military (for the most part) turned the Canada 125 and Queens Golden Jubilee Medal into "gimme medals" for a select few.  However, on the civilian side the medals were awarded to some outstanding Canadians for their work in academia, business, or the community and you should be careful to view it as a gimme medal for them.

I guess my experience in the 80s and early 90s was that we (the army) did not recognize our members as well as we should have.  If we can give a SSM for soldiers serving in Germany and for Canadian Rangers, I think we can give it for suitable domestic operations.


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## Infanteer (24 Mar 2005)

Gunner said:
			
		

> I'm going to provide the minority opinion.   I think the awarding of the Special Service Medal with a "Service in Canada Bar" or something along those lines would be suitable for awarding for most of the larger domestic operations in Canada.   Certainly the criteria for the award would need some clarification in terms of which domestic operations would be approved for eligibility purposes.   Aid to the Civil Power and aid to a lawful authority are certainly given in my books.   It becomes murky when you get into provision of services (ie supporting the RCMP based on a request - which in essence Op GRIZZLY was).



I think if it meets the requirements that Mark posted, then I wouldn't have a problem with it.  The examples you stated (ACP) are genuinely military options.  My fear is that we "Americanize" (not a hack, I just don't like the medal for everything approach) the system by abrogating the principle of a medal not representing routine duty.


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## Gunner (24 Mar 2005)

> the system by abrogating the principle of a medal not representing routine duty.



All depends on your definition.  You could argue that going to war, peace enforcement, peacekeeping, peace support operations, etc, etc are all part of being a soldier...


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## Bruce Monkhouse (24 Mar 2005)

......a scroll is always nice.


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## Gunner (24 Mar 2005)

> ......a scroll is always nice.



Great...Along with the other 1000 plaques, scrolls, certificates and general thanks for coming out awards you accumulate over 20 years?  How about a medal that condenses all your dom ops experience in one award?

Cheers!


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## Bruce Monkhouse (24 Mar 2005)

I don't know, I look at police/fire personall in thier "dress" uniforms and I don't see medals for things like that.......just seems "cheap" to me. Sorry.


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## Gunner (24 Mar 2005)

> I don't know, I look at police/fire personall in thier "dress" uniforms and I don't see medals for things like that.......just seems "cheap" to me. Sorry.



I guess police and firemen are "doing thier jobs".  I guess that goes back to my question of what is expected from a soldier.  Mind you, medals are more of a military thing anyway aren't they?


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## Bruce Monkhouse (24 Mar 2005)

Very true, but from this link below, this one caught my eye,  Corrections Exemplary Service Medal ....16 years doing this and I didn't even know we had one. Guess one would have to do good to get it, eh?

...either that or none of us are "exemplary" 
http://www.gg.ca/honours/ordprec_e.asp


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## Gunner (24 Mar 2005)

Just another 4 years to go!


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## Kat Stevens (24 Mar 2005)

I was married for 22 years.  If ANYONE deserves a Domestic Ops Medal, it's me..... ;D

CHIMO,  Kat


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## marshall sl (24 Mar 2005)

If non of your co workers are being recognized for their 20 yrs or more service Bruce, take your managers to task.We did out west and several deserving members have been awarded the CESM.
Prior to that only managers were getting it.


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## KevinB (24 Mar 2005)

The only use I can see for the Dom Op medal is for reservists - so you can see who in your chain of command are shirkers... 

 ;D


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## Gunner (25 Mar 2005)

> The only use I can see for the Dom Op medal is for reservists - so you can see who in your chain of command are shirkers...



Or crows...who like shinny things.   

Cheers!


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## KevinB (25 Mar 2005)

True


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## Fishbone Jones (25 Mar 2005)

I'm all mixed up here. My hormones and stuff are going crazy. I don't personally like the idea for a Dom Ops medal, but if it happens, c'est le vie. If it does though, they better include everything the military (all three branches) have ever been called out on. The Olympics was the biggest thing we've done since the Korean War, we were armed and I was there for the better part of four months for two weeks worth of games. As were most of the Forces at the time. Everything that's happened since, where they've called us out should be counted.

As to the SSM being used, with another bar, I say horseshit. It's already been degraded with all the bars attached to it. When it came out, it was for NATO service in Germany, that was the reason for it. Not Alert and the rest. Now, I'll expect all the naysayers, who call it the "Beer and Bratwurst" medal to disagree, but for us that were there in the 60's and 70's before the Wall fell, we earned it. We spent most of the year on alert and exercise, away from home, in the mud. The threat was real, and we took it serious. I was part of a Centurion crew, with a life expectancy of 11 minutes. We worked hard and we played hard.   For those that came after, good on you, but it wasn't the same thing. And nobody can argue it. If you don't have it, and you didn't experience it, to degrade it by calling it the B&B medal shows your ignorance.

If they want something for Dom Ops let them mint something new and distinctive, something like a soldier tossing a volley ball back over a high school fence to a bunch of local children, but don't hold your breath. Most of you will be applying for it online from the Heritage Dept after you retire. Even if it was approved tomorrow, by the time it's minted and the backlog is sorted, they've checked your bonafides, got fifteen signatures from your four previous dead CO's and RSM's, stamped by a local Notary Public, checked it out through DVA and set up the presentation with your local NDP MPP in the boarded up Legion that closed the week before, you'll be dead.


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## Grunt_031 (25 Mar 2005)

The SSM was not instituted solely for service in Germany or the European Theatre. There have been  armed threats to Canadians during the cold war and since the cold war other than NATO Germany. It was instituted for Canadians that provided service in areas where a medal was not issued or the person did not have the required time to officially recognize their contributions. So a Domestic Ops clasp/bar would fit in.

ie 
Alert was started in 1958 during the cold war and provide early waring from nuclear attack. It was more than likely targeted for destruction.

Peacekeeping started in 1947 with Korea

Pakistan 89-90. Engineers faced danger with live mines and there their disposal.

Rangers. Again provide initially northen defence and early warning in the north. akin to what was provided by the units in Germany during the Cold war.

Domestic Ops??? Olympic Games, OKA, Gusten Lake, BC etc


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## bossi (25 Mar 2005)

I'm glad we're having this debate - sincerely.

Recceguy's post gives us an extremly valuable perspective - insight from somebody who remembers when Centurion was a rank before it became a tank (chuckle - okay - I'm just kidding)

However, it's a reminder that once upon a time things were seen differently
(i.e. before the more relaxed "Beer and Bratwurst" era, Canadian troops in Germany really and truly were positioned there as part of the "trip wire" ...)

And, I'm very much in agreement with Infanteer's comments and Gunner's minority opinion
(I had to sign off yesterday in order to do some errands, and thus fell off the radar ...)

Yes - it would have been much more fair, and caused MUCH less griping, if our Army had been allowed to issue the Golden Jubilee medal to everybody (as they initially tried to do) - however, some non-military whankers probably figured it would cost too much ... and so, we ended up with a brutally flawed distribution plan (i.e. the computer-generated lists included guys were were NES, released, etc.  And then, when people started tinkering with the lists ... some serious abuses took place - however, as always, some things happened that weren't fair thanks to a lack of ethos and an overabundance of arrogant bullies)

Looking at the QR&O, and watching the trend in CF medals, it looks like we're getting back on track ...
We've got both Special and General medals, plus the good old undetected crime gong.
So, I'm sticking to my guns - if the purpose of medals is recognising service, in order to differentiate those who've served from those who haven't ... then a Dom Ops bar isn't the end of the world.

And, yes - I've got an axe to grind - I know people who won't even qualify for the Dom Ops bar.
That, combined with the fact that they've never, ever stepped up to the plate ... drives me crazy.
So, even if it's only a medal made from the foil paper from cigarette packages ... it feels good to pin it on when these frauds can only brush lint from their uniforms ...


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## gun plumber (25 Mar 2005)

I've been reading this thread pretty near non stop since it first was started and can honestly say I don't know where I stand. .I have precipitated in a few Dom ops in my career as a reservist and would like to see a medal awarded.On the other hand,I don't want to wear a medal that is going to be loathed by everyone and draw unnecessary comments about my military career(ala all the flak I received when I transfered to the regs from the reserves).If one was to be issued,unfortunately,it would be all or none.By this I mean,we couldn't put restrictions on which Dom ops are recognized and what ones are not.This action would splinter the topic more so than what it already is.Either way,I'm not to going to lose sleep over it.
One thing I've noticed that, only one person has mentioned,is that of OP Persistence-the recovery of the Swiss Air flight 111.If you wanted to issue a medal for service out of daily routine,I can say with confidence that this one fits the bill.There are alot of people,mostly reservists,who still bear the scars and are unwilling to talk about them.Both me and my wife served there,(thats where I met my wife,not all bad )and some of our shared experiences would make your blood run cold.When you take people,who the night before were out being a regular civy,getting ready for school,or the start of the training year, throw them into what we only ever saw on the news or in movies, deal with the almost neverending flow of distraught family members and countless recovery actions on the beaches surrounding Peggy's Cove,with no training in this type of action,an abnormal situation,above daily routine exists.
In comparison to the other Dom ops I participated in,If I received a medal for just OP Persistence,I would wear it,and defend it.If the only op I ever participated in was OP Snow Shovel,then I think my feelings on this topic would be very different.
My 2 cents


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## supplyguy (7 Apr 2005)

I just wanted to add as being part of OP Persistence-the recovery of the Swiss Air flight 111. I was onboard HMCS Halifax for those gruesome 31 days and I still remember what I saw and the smell of death. I also think about what the divers from FDU (both Atl & Pac) had to ordeal initially as well as other people involved. These were acts above and beyond the call of duty. So I am in favour of this medal. It has more meaning to me than swiss army knife and certificate. No disrespect intended. Also can anyone tell me if there is any update news on this?


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## pbi (10 Apr 2005)

I read a copy of the proposed bill a couple of days ago. The covering letter stated that the official CF position is against the bill. To me, if people perform individual acts deserving of honours and awards, we should recognize them accordingly: we already have the system for that. But to give an award for a domestic operation is focusing on the wrong side of our business: we are helping other people to do their primary job. It is not our primary job. I go back to one of my original points: why should we get a medal for what firefighters, EMS and police do on a regular basis with no medals at all (and, in the case of volunteer firefighters, nowhere near the pay and benefits and support we get, either...) Picking up shattered human remains was no doubt sickening and disturbing for the soldiers on OP PERSISTENCE, but the emergency services folks do that every week all across Canada. I would feel uncomfortable if we were to stand beside them with a medal for helping them do their jobs.

Cheers.


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## bossi (10 Apr 2005)

I truly respect the fact that you feel so strongly about this topic.
Equally, so do I.  Unfortunately, we're on diverging approaches ...
(i.e. I got shot at on a Dom Op, and you've "been on the other side" with vol firefighters)



			
				pbi said:
			
		

> ... we are helping other people to do their primary job. It is not our primary job. ...



Notwithstanding the irrefutable point that honours and awards, in general, should be for "service above and beyond the call of duty" ... I'm afraid that I still believe it's okay to recognise service if "... It is not our primary job ...".

However, I'm glad it's out of our hands now, since I'd lose this argument 
("Paper, scissors, rank" ... CHUCKLE!!!!!!!)   > 
Now that it's out of our hands, all we can do is sit back and wait for the roulette ball to fall on either red or black ... and then obey whatever orders that follow (... with a minimum of whinging ...)


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## HollywoodHitman (11 Apr 2005)

In Canada, would it be accurate to say that those who can recommend a decoration, do so when it is deserved? I am reluctant to bring this up, but shortly after 3VP returned from Afghan, there was ALOT of talk of jealousy and foreign awards being issued to people who weren't even in the ****.........Heard some info first hand, but.........

I wasn't there, but the military is second only to the fire service when it comes to the Rumour Mill........3rd place is the Grannies Knitting club..........

Pot stirred.......... :-X


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## clasper (11 Apr 2005)

One other point about adding a Dom Ops bar to the SSM that no one has brought up yet: You need 6 months cumulative service to be eligible.  Guys that went up to Alert to do GD's for the summer aren't eligible for the SSM until they spend a few more months up there.  I knew a guy who had spent 5 and a half months cumulative in Germany, and kept volunteering to go help close down Lahr so he could get the medal.  (He never got it.)

If the same concept is kept for the Domestic Operations Medal, then the guy who goes to shovel snow in Toronto for a week won't be eligible for a medal (unless he already has 173 days accrued on other domestic operations).


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## KevinB (11 Apr 2005)

SSM bar -> 30 days for Humanitarian ops...


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## Blakey (11 Apr 2005)

Enough with the chicken shit medals already, last time i checked *i personaly *didnt join up for medals and slaps on the back.


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## KevinB (11 Apr 2005)

Its all about the fruit salad now


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## Blakey (11 Apr 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> Its all about the fruit salad now


 ;D Its just so damned hard to march with all these gongs  ;D


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## Infanteer (11 Apr 2005)

Blakey said:
			
		

> last time i checked *i personaly *didnt join up for medals and slaps on the back.



You got them all in your avatar.... :-X ;D


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## Blakey (11 Apr 2005)

Yes I do, Im not proud of most of them. : ie the 3rd   and 5th 
[edit]Hell, now that I think of it, add the 2nd 6th 7th one to that list as well.[/edit]

[2nd edit] You what, after thinking about it, if im not happy with over 2/3rd's of my medals, why the hell do I have them in my avatar?, looks like its time for a new avatar...[/edit]


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## KevinB (11 Apr 2005)

Blakey said:
			
		

> ;D Its just so damned hard to march with all these gongs   ;D



Some guys are going to have to hire Shurpas to carry their rack


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## bossi (12 Apr 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> Its all about the fruit salad now



Or, as my friend the avid hunger says ... "It's all about the rack"
(darn - there's no well-endowed smiley face ...)     :-* >


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## Cliffy433 (12 Apr 2005)

I was DAGged RED for Op PEREGRINE - wanted to go, not for tin, but I have friends who live and work in some of the hardest hit areas.  Would have been nice to lend a helping hand.  Oh well.

While at home, I designed an Op PEREGRINE medal, ribbon of black, scarlet and yellow (smoke, heat, fire), and on the gong a crossed shovel and fire broom.

I submitted it to my WO, but I don't think she put it any further up the chain of command.  Good thing she got the joke, eh?

tlm.


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## vonGarvin (14 Apr 2005)

Before things get out of hand, let's not start giving medals for proper field sanitation just yet.  Some domestic operations were more war-like than some foreign ops.  So, let's get rid of thinking that if an op happens in Canada, then it's not a mission.  As well, the CPSM is not just given out for UN missions: it was also given for IFOR/SFOR in Bosnia (a NATO mission).
Take the example of Op SALON.  It was an operation that involved an entire Canadian Mechanised Brigade Group deployed on an operation with Air Force assets supporting (Tac Hel, Airphoto services, etc).  It lasted more than a month and involved a hell of a lot more than supporting other agencies (such as non-military operations as putting out forest fires or building dykes, etc).  To use current terminology, it was a "block 2" war edging close to "block 1".  For those of you confused, Block 2 is a sort of mission seen today in Afghanistan or last year in Haiti: armed intervention to a failed or failing state in order to restore stability.  Block 1 is warfighting: guns and bullets flying, etc.
So, no medal for Op SALON, but going to Cyprus the next year (when all 20 of my rounds never left my magazine pouch) got me the CPSM and the UNFICYP medal.  Geesh, in SALON I had some 150 rounds on me (30 loaded on my rifle), stood on crate upon crate of .50 ammo in the track and we rehearsed our role for SALON in Gagetown by attacking up to and including combat team level.  Certainly sounds more "meritorious" in service than watching topless women on the beaches in Ayia Napa a year later!!!!!!!

But that's just my $0.02 worth, and I smoke, so therefore evil.
 >


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## pbi (14 Apr 2005)

> Some domestic operations were more war-like than some foreign ops.


 Unfortunately, none of these are listed in the proposal. The ones listed are all humanitarian assistance ops, not ALEA or ACP.
That is my point: why should we be getting medals for helping the Canadian civilian emergency services to do their jobs, which is the esssence of a humanitarian assistance op? Individual commendations to put on the wall, or certainly the appropriate decorations for those who display true bravery during a dom op, but not a "thanks for coming out" medal. It bespeaks a search for things to stick on our chests.

Cheers


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## KevinB (14 Apr 2005)

pbi said:
			
		

> It bespeaks a search for things to stick on our chests.




YUP

 Hence why I think it is a farce.


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## Acorn (15 Apr 2005)

pbi said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, none of these are listed in the proposal. The ones listed are all humanitarian assistance ops, not ALEA or ACP.
> That is my point: why should we be getting medals for helping the Canadian civilian emergency services to do their jobs, which is the esssence of a humanitarian assistance op? Individual commendations to put on the wall, or certainly the appropriate decorations for those who display true bravery during a dom op, but not a "thanks for coming out" medal. It bespeaks a search for things to stick on our chests.
> 
> Cheers


Absolutely. And as mentioned before (by you pbi, I think) the civvy firefighters, cops, rescue workers and assorted volunteers etc. don't get a medal for what they do, why should we?

Acorn


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## swanita (15 Apr 2005)

Slowly becoming American-like.....next we'll be getting medals just for showing up


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## marshall sl (15 Apr 2005)

Police, Fireman etc recieve a medal after 20yrs service, they are Exemplary Service medals.The exception is the RCMP.They have their own 20 year medal.


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## bossi (15 Apr 2005)

pbi said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, none of these are listed in the proposal. The ones listed are all humanitarian assistance ops, not ALEA or ACP. ...



Ironic, isn't it? (i.e. due to political correctness, certain Dom Ops will be swept under the carpet ... )
It certainly seems contrary to the principles of honours and awards:
QR&O 18

(e) equitability - non-recognition of this factor could produce the negative effect of dissatisfaction rather than improve morale since,* if an honour is bestowed for duty under certain circumstances, similar kinds of duty and circumstances should also be rewarded*; and

(f) credibility - this factor is related to respect since, to be credible, *an honour must represent a worthy endeavour and it must not represent routine duty*.



			
				pbi said:
			
		

> ... That is my point: why should we be getting medals for *helping the Canadian civilian emergency services to do their jobs*, which is the esssence of a humanitarian assistance op? Individual commendations to put on the wall, or certainly the appropriate decorations for those who display true bravery during a dom op, but not a "thanks for coming out" medal. It bespeaks a search for things to stick on our chests.



I guess the reason I disagree with your logic is this:  If somebody does something that is NOT their job, then I view that as being "unusual", perhaps even "exceptional".  And, in the following example, when somebody does something that they're not specifically trained or equipped to do ... "above and beyond the call of duty".

I'm very sorry, but as respectfully said before, I'm afraid we're stuck agreeing to disagree.
If they want to recognise Dom Ops, then a bar that says "Canada" on the SSM would be a fair compromise (i.e. no additional medal, yet recognition for something "special" ...).

*'Tried my best'*
RESCUE RECALLED AS BURNED MOM, BABY CLING TO LIFE
By Rob Lamberti, Toronto Sun, April 15, 2005 

A MOTHER and her 1-year-old son are fighting for their lives in hospital after four men braved intense flames and choking smoke to rescue them from their burning apartment early yesterday. "I love that little boy," said Stanley Anglin, 40, a tenant of the Rutherford Ave. building near Weston Rd. and Jane St. 

"I tried my best. I didn't want that little boy to die." 

Anglin, two Toronto cops and a firefighter pulled the victims, each suffering from extensive burns, out of a second-floor apartment engulfed in flames. 

The child suffered second- and third-degree burns to his torso and face and was rushed to Hospital for Sick Children. His mom, 26, was taken to Sunnybrook with burns to about 75% of her body. 

BEGAN IN BEDROOM 

Their injuries are considered life-threatening. 

Late yesterday an investigator from the the Ontario fire marshal's office began sifting through what little remained of the home to figure out how the inferno began. The alarm came in at 12:27 a.m. 

Toronto Fire divisional commander Bob O'Hallarn said the two-alarm blaze might have started in a bedroom. 

Anglin said he was shaving in his apartment when he smelled smoke shortly after midnight. He went upstairs and pushed open the door to the woman's apartment. 

As the door opened, he was engulfed in smoke and threatened by flames but was able to find the woman, identified only as Tia, "on fire." 

"I grabbed her and pulled her out," said Anglin, adding he had her sit on the landing of a staircase. 

"She was still on fire so I went and got my extinguisher (and doused her)," he said. 

"From there, I tried to go back to the boy, but the fire and the smoke got so hot," said Anglin, who suffered minor smoke inhalation. "I was freaking out. I was thinking there were more kids because I saw earlier there were other kids there playing." 

It was then that Toronto Police Const. Anthony Als and Sgt. Larry Zimmerman arrived. 

Anglin said he yelled at Zimmerman that the boy was still inside. 

"That's when I decided to go in," Zimmerman said. 

The veteran officer said he crawled along the floor in a bid to reach the child. 

"There was this much air at the bottom" by the floor, said Zimmerman, holding his hands 15 cm apart. 

"I got in. I think the first room was the kitchen," he recalled. "I couldn't really tell with all the smoke. I got through that room and through the other door, which was totally engulfed. 

"I couldn't get any further than that," he said. 

Zimmerman backed out and lifted Tia -- who was bloodied and nearly naked from flames burning her clothing -- onto his back and carried her to safety. Toronto firefighter Darryl Viscount then ran in and felt his way through the darkness to the injured boy and carried him out. 

"It's sad," Zimmerman said. "I wish I could have gotten in there." 

As the drama unfolded on the second floor, neighbours from across the street rushed over to knock on doors to alert sleeping tenants in five other apartments. But even they were forced back by the heat and smoke until the first fire crews arrived minutes later.


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## MG34 (15 Apr 2005)

Situations like given above are not cause for a medal,a commendation yes but not a medal.A medal for domestic ops,give me a break that is just idiotic,what is next? A star for going on a bde Ex in Wainwright,with retroactive bars for every RV you attended??


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## Blakey (15 Apr 2005)

Just as a follow on, after fighting the fires in Penticton, BC in '94, everyone to my knowledge had a letter of Appreciation from the BC Government put on their Pers. file.(Well at least i know there is one on mine, ive seen it there.) Seems adequate to me, i think im leaning towards what bossi eluded to with the SSM, just put up a bar with the Dom Op name on it ie a bar with *Operation ASSISTANCE *.
Of course they (DND Hierarchy) will have to reword the criteria for eligibility of the SSM.

[edit]Seems like a good way to assuage the people out there that are just looking for a medal grab...[/edit]


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## KevinB (15 Apr 2005)

If you put every Dom OP on a bar - some guys would need 6 SSM's just to fit the bars...


If they want us to have something - make it a a non descript AtCP bar on the SSM and that covers all.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (15 Apr 2005)

...and that could be the icebreaker to start a conversation with someone, .."so, where did you get yours from?"


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## Blakey (15 Apr 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> If you put every Dom OP on a bar - some guys would need 6 SSM's just to fit the bars...
> 
> 
> If they want us to have something - make it a a non descript AtCP bar on the SSM and that covers all.



Sounds good to me...but im not the one who decides these thing either. ;D


----------



## ex royal now flyer (20 Apr 2005)

vonGarvin said:
			
		

> Take the example of Op SALON.   It was an operation that involved an entire Canadian Mechanised Brigade Group deployed on an operation with Air Force assets supporting (Tac Hel, Airphoto services, etc).   It lasted more than a month and involved a heck of a lot more than supporting other agencies (such as non-military operations as putting out forest fires or building dykes, etc).   To use current terminology, it was a "block 2" war edging close to "block 1".   For those of you confused, Block 2 is a sort of mission seen today in Afghanistan or last year in Haiti: armed intervention to a failed or failing state in order to restore stability.   Block 1 is warfighting: guns and bullets flying, etc.
> So, no medal for Op SALON, but going to Cyprus the next year (when all 20 of my rounds never left my magazine pouch) got me the CPSM and the UNFICYP medal.   Geesh, in SALON I had some 150 rounds on me (30 loaded on my rifle), stood on crate upon crate of .50 ammo in the track and we rehearsed our role for SALON in Gagetown by attacking up to and including combat team level.   Certainly sounds more "meritorious" in service than watching topless women on the beaches in Ayia Napa a year later!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> >



vonGarvin,

Good points.  As one who was there with you, I concur with your statement regarding Op Salon.  Yes, we were armed, shots were fired, and injuries sustained - I do not remember the fellows name but talk to the soldier who ended up with a 10 inch screwdriver thrust into the back of his flak vest.  Who knows what would have happened if he was not wearing a flak vest.  

As for the medal, I would accept something for Op Salon - even a letter of appreciation would have been nice.    However, I believe that the criteria for the SSm is a joke.  Let's see, taking a posting to Germany, a few months up north in Alert, or deploying with DART for 30 days, seems difficult to me.  Op Salon will never qualify because of the political sensitivity of the situation.  It makes the government feel good about sending humanitarian assistance where needed - either domestic or international - and awarding, with a medal, those who helped the government look good in the international community.  However, the government will not admit to internal problems and having to send in the CF to help clean up what three levels of government screwed up.  So, for Op Salon no medal.


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## vonGarvin (20 Apr 2005)

I forget the fella's name as well.  Some guys still have scars from that Op.  Buy, you're right: No medal for Salon for a bazillion reasons.  That's ok.  When we retire, we'll form the "Oka Veterans' Group" (a new age version of the Great War Veteran's Association, aka Royal Canadian Legion), we'll implement our own medals, have "Oka Day" and even have Lasagna for our traditional meal  ;D


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## the 48th regulator (20 Apr 2005)

> have "Oka Day" and even have Lasagna for our traditional meal



freaking priceless


heheh...

dileas

tess


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## ex royal now flyer (20 Apr 2005)

Lets not forgot about having a golf tournament.


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## pbi (24 Apr 2005)

marshall sl said:
			
		

> Police, Fireman etc recieve a medal after 20yrs service, they are Exemplary Service medals.The exception is the RCMP.They have their own 20 year medal.



Those are long service medals, and that's not really what we're talking about. Do firefighters get a medal for every multiple alarm call they go to, or for every life they save? Do cops get a medal for every nasty armed shytebird they lock up, or every dangerous situation they defuse? No-of course not. So-why should we get medals for coming along and helping out, IAW Canadian practices for humanitarian Dom Ops, almost always in a second response or general support capacity, once the civvies are fully engaged. Our reward for these things should be the thanks of fellow Canadians, which in my experience in Dom Ops, we usually receive in spades and often in a very moving and genuine manner. As for medals for operations in Canada against our own Canadian citizens, I am not so sure we really want to wear medals for that, unless we are fighting a civil war in which case all bets are off anyway.

I think we need to restrain this desire to be sticking things all over ourselves, particularly for ops in Canada. I agree with the poster who warned about "exercise medals"-this is not as funny as it sounds-the Red Army wore them, for example for their Summer Lightning annual exercise series. Some stuff you just don't get badges for, and we shouldn't be going around looking for them.

Mark: IMHO this is a level playing field: if you want to go on "automatic fire", please don't feel restrained. I'm quite capable of separating comments you make on this board from the conversations you and I have at other times. Rank does not automatically equate to "better argument" on this site: only logic and experience do that, neither of which are tied to any rank, and both of which I know you have in great supply.

Cheers.


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## slim300 (24 Apr 2005)

To offer another point of view:

The Americans get a medal for just about anything, and it does become a little overboard.  That being said, it represents an accomplishment publicly.  A medal is supposed to be something to be proud of, it seems to me the desired effect of an American getting a medal is remotivation and heightened esprit de corps.  And what's wrong with that?

People on this post have haggled over the criteria for getting a domestic service medal.  There are certainly a lot of oversees tours that have not been very high on the danger scale but few would ask to stop giving medals for more peaceful tours.  From my perspective we get medals for serving the will of the Canadian people... that acknowledgement should not be limited to outside our borders.  Some will say we serve Canadians on a daily basis but really we mostly train for operations and support our own military establishment.  When we go on domestic operations, we directly impact the lives of Canadians that we are around to serve and protect... I think that's something to be proud of.

Of course it's fasionable in the CF to be surly about things like new medals but I don't want to be the one who tells BC residents that saving their homes is less valid service than taking down mod tentage in Bosnia.  Currently you'd get 2 medals for doing a first tour in Bosnia and you'd get none for disaster assistance in Canada.  Why is Alert considered a tour but not scowering the Nova Scotia shoreline for body parts?

My suggestion: a special service medal for domestic ops with a maximum of 3 or 4 bars or pips on it.


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## smokey_vet (4 May 2005)

I cannot believe some of the ignorant comments on this subject. I have served in the infantry on two internal crisis and again over seas.. Oka being one of them. For those of  you that have never been directly involved with a Block 1,2, type of operation should keep your comments to yourself. For those of us that have been there, understand each other.  There has been very little mention of the personnel who suffer from psychological and or physical injures acquired while on ops within our own country. This has to be addressed! DVAC will not recognise certain benefits for the families of individuals who were injured. Our gov't must first acknowledge these ops before DVA will change some of their policies.  
     So, yes is my answer to the new proposed Bill. Lets not forget that the troops and our Country come first. If we can't take care of our own, how can the Canadian people expect our Forces to take care of our international interests.
     Remember that still serving personnel are not exempt from injury while on future dom ops. Therefore, it is very important that we veterans look out for the best interests for our future vets.


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## Blakey (4 May 2005)

smokey_vet said:
			
		

> I cannot believe some of the ignorant comments on this subject. I have served in the infantry on two internal crisis and again over seas.. Oka being one of them. For those of   you that have never been directly involved with a Block 1,2, type of operation should keep your comments to yourself. For those of us that have been there, understand each other.   There has been very little mention of the personnel who suffer from psychological and or physical injures acquired while on ops within our own country. This has to be addressed! DVAC will not recognise certain benefits for the families of individuals who were injured. Our gov't must first acknowledge these ops before DVA will change some of their policies.
> So, yes is my answer to the new proposed Bill. Lets not forget that the troops and our Country come first. If we can't take care of our own, how can the Canadian people expect our Forces to take care of our international interests.
> Remember that still serving personnel are not exempt from injury while on future dom ops. Therefore, it is very important that we veterans look out for the best interests for our future vets.


Im confused...we are talking about a shiny piece of tin and you start a rant about DVA, correct me if i am wrong but, how is this associated with a Dom Op's medal? I just cant seem to make the connection...


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## Infanteer (4 May 2005)

Blakey said:
			
		

> Im confused...we are talking about a shiny piece of tin and you start a rant about DVA, correct me if i am wrong but, how is this associated with a Dom Op's medal? I just cant seem to make the connection...



Add me to the confused list.


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## Big Foot (4 May 2005)

Another one for the confused list.


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## pbi (5 May 2005)

> There has been very little mention of the personnel who suffer from psychological and or physical injures acquired while on ops within our own country



Right, because proportionately speaking there are very, very few of these people as compared to those suffering the results of overseas operations. I know of only two major injuries and one death on Dom Ops: Gustafson Lake, Op ASSISTANCE, and Op GINGER. If you have a better idea of the impact, please share it with us.

Cheers.


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## vonGarvin (5 May 2005)

I'm not confused.....just drunk, so everything makes sense  ;D


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## Lawrence (13 Jul 2005)

Has anyone heard anything else about this medal recently?


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## KevinB (14 Jul 2005)

Law811 said:
			
		

> Has anyone heard anything else about this medal recently?



Let it die.

 Who cares about another dumb shiny.  With our luck it will end up ranking higher than Afghan...


----------



## Spr.Earl (14 Jul 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> Let it die.
> 
> Who cares about another dumb shiny.   With our luck it will end up ranking higher than Afghan...



Touche.


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## the 48th regulator (14 Jul 2005)

crap,

I had left room for the snow shovel shaped medal,

oh well, maybe they will come out with a "who talks the most about the army after they leave" medal.

We can all get one!  

dileas

tess


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## 392 (15 Jul 2005)

Poppa said:
			
		

> So Kevin does that mean you don't want some flashy gong to commemerate doing the TEAL conf in Ottawa...you know hanging out at the hotel downtown...serious libations every night and inspections each morning.?



WOW  

There's something I haven't heard mentioned since I left Connaught after that particularly "interesting" tasking


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## KevinB (16 Jul 2005)

Our little clique is growing is it not


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## Chimo (16 Jul 2005)

pbi said:
			
		

> Right, because proportionately speaking there are very, very few of these people as compared to those suffering the results of overseas operations. I know of only two major injuries and one death on Dom Ops: Gustafson Lake, Op ASSISTANCE, and Op GINGER. If you have a better idea of the impact, please share it with us.
> 
> Cheers.



With all respect, during the Winnipeg flood, Op Assistance, two Sappers were severely injured, Spr Frank Guay was electrocuted while conducting boating operations in the South of the Province and Spr Dan Rummery (last name may be misspelt) lost an eye while changing a tire on a LSVW in support of the Operation.

Although it may seem that we are presently getting several medals for less then sterling reasons, I would like you to consider another point of view, perhaps, the Canadian public is finally recognizing our collective contributions and feel a need to show it in a tangible way. I have yet to ask for any medal I have and wear each with respect because they were given to me on behalf of the people of Canada.     So ends the rant...


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## Young KH (17 Jul 2005)

For those of you that think Canadian soldiers have too many medals you aught to watch any parade where there are soldiers from differant countries and see just how bare the chests of the Canadians look. A prime example(and this is without Any foreign troops) was the celebration in Ottawa for Canada Day. In the band I only saw one medal and that was on the Drum Major, a CD, that shows that he has been in the army for at least 12 years. The rest of the band was very red with no ribons that I could see. The Honor guard wasn't much better, with the commander having a goodly amount, three people in the colour party having some but most of the guard having nothing. This was emphasized by the Governor Generals inspection and a lot of unbroken red tunics. OH ya She had four Medals, putting all the boys to shame. 

When Canadians are viewed by people from other countries we should look like the professional Arny that we are and not a bunch or recruits, it instills coincidence in the people we are trying to help.

What bothers me most though is WHY was the 1970 FLQ / Quebec / October crises left off of that list.

You shouldn't have to kill some one to get some appreciateion from your own country. 

Another thing you might want to remember is that most of the medals worn are from the UN and not from Canada at all. So we get reconition from the UN and none from Canada. Something that needs to be changed.


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## Teddy Ruxpin (17 Jul 2005)

Young KH said:
			
		

> For those of you that think Canadian soldiers have too many medals you aught to watch any parade where there are soldiers from differant countries and see just how bare the chests of the Canadians look. A prime example(and this is without Any foreign troops) was the celebration in Ottawa for Canada Day. In the band I only saw one medal and that was on the Drum Major, a CD, that shows that he has been in the army for at least 12 years. The rest of the band was very red with no ribons that I could see. The Honor guard wasn't much better, with the commander having a goodly amount, three people in the colour party having some but most of the guard having nothing. This was emphasized by the Governor Generals inspection and a lot of unbroken red tunics. OH ya She had four Medals, putting all the boys to shame.
> 
> Another thing you might want to remember is that most of the medals worn are from the UN and not from Canada at all. So we get reconition from the UN and none from Canada. Something that needs to be changed.



A little clarification might help - especially in connection with the situation outlined above.

On most (not all) ceremonial parades in Ottawa, the bulk of the CF contingent is comprised of Reserve soldiers (the Guards) and the various bands.  Neither of these, by the very nature of their service, have many opportunities to earn medals - especially on deployment.  It is true that individual Reservists proceed on tour but these are still not in the majority, particularly in the Ceremonial Guard, where summer students are hired.  Bands never deploy.

I can assure you that if you were to visit an operational part of the army (1 CMBG, for example), you'd see medals aplenty, all from operations.  I have a few myself and none are from the United Nations (only one is non-Canadian) - indicative of the massively changed pattern of CF deployments since the mid-1990s


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## Fishbone Jones (17 Jul 2005)

Young KH said:
			
		

> What bothers me most though is WHY was the 1970 FLQ / Quebec / October crises left off of that list.



Or the Olympics in Montreal, it was a massive operation. IF they produce this medal, it should be for all Dom OPs, with appropriate bars. All or nothing.




			
				Young KH said:
			
		

> So we get reconition from the UN and none from Canada. Something that needs to be changed.



We have the CPSM given by Canada for Peacekeeping missions.


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## Young KH (17 Jul 2005)

If I am not mistaken (and I have been known to be, once in a while) Capital Hill still retains a unit of the Royal Canadian Guards for just such an occasion. I was not reflecting on these men on that parade but on how the Canadian Armed Forces as a whole, looks to the rest of the world.
The World doesn't stop to think,"maybe these are students, or only part time solders, or maybe they don't have a chance for postings", they see bare chests with no medals. This I am sure is not the fault of the average soldier. But you do have to admit that it doesn't look so good for Canada.


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## Fishbone Jones (17 Jul 2005)

Young KH said:
			
		

> If I am not mistaken (and I have been known to be, once in a while) Capital Hill still retains a unit of the Royal Canadian Guards for just such an occasion.



Nope. The Canadian Guards are long gone. The soldiers on the hill are mostly Reservists



			
				Young KH said:
			
		

> The World doesn't stop to think,"maybe these are students, or only part time solders, or maybe they don't have a chance for postings", they see bare chests with no medals. This I am sure is not the fault of the average soldier. But you do have to admit that it doesn't look so good for Canada.



So, don't just point out the percieved problem. Give us a solution.


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## Young KH (17 Jul 2005)

The solution would be to use Regular, full time, Soldiers for such an important event that is televised to the world.
But it is also not wrong for Canada to recognise Soldiers efforts here in Canada. I for one do not believe that one medal with bars (Government saving our money again LOL) would be out of place. I remember a time when most soldiers thought of the Cyprus medal as "The Cocktail Medal", until all heck broke out. The guy is right about the Montreal Olympics also. After the Germany Olympics where it was shown that no one is safe from terrorists. This terrorist stuff didn't start on 9/11, and as time goes by more and more soldiers will be needed to protect our own soil.
That may be only my opinion but that's the way of it all.


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## Fishbone Jones (17 Jul 2005)

Young KH said:
			
		

> The solution would be to use Soldiers for such an important event that is televised to the world.



We are using Soldiers for the event. They're just mostly Reservists, a few are Regs.


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## Young KH (17 Jul 2005)

There I've changed the wording. Sorry I didn't think I had to spell it out, and there was absolutely no disrespect intended towards the Reservists.


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## Fishbone Jones (17 Jul 2005)

Young KH said:
			
		

> The solution would be to use Regular, full time, Soldiers for such an important event that is televised to the world.



And you'll get these guys, twice daily during the summer, from where. In case you haven't been watching the news lately, we're extremley understaffed and have critical numbers we have to hold for deployment. To try and saddle the Regs with this task, with everything else they have to do, would be fiscally irresponsible and a total waste of resources.

Except for a lack of medals, which most tourists don't even pick up on, the Reservist do a fine and commendable job on the Hill. The lack of decorations is a mute point in my mind.


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## Young KH (17 Jul 2005)

[quote author=recceguy link In case you haven't been watching the news lately, we're extremley understaffed and have critical numbers we have to hold for deployment. [/quote]

Yes I agree but the fault lies in the Governments choice to save money on the military by cutting it down on the number of troops to (well too little) and failing to supply it properly.


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## Gunner98 (17 Jul 2005)

Governor General's Foot Guards and the Canadian Grenadier Guards provide Cermonial Guard soldiers on Parliament Hill.  

The Governor General's Foot Guards were founded in 1872 as a regiment of foot guards. The Canadian Grenadier Guards of Montreal date back to 1764, making it Canada's oldest militia unit. 

Cocktail medal from Cyprus and a Beer drinking one from Germany, don't they make the Veterans proud.


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## Young KH (17 Jul 2005)

First of all it's nice to see some one that still knows what a Gun looks like.

I as do many of the older vets realize that the people that POO POO medals such as the Cyprus or Germany medals are the people that don't have them.
There will always be people that think that the only true and deserved medals are the ones that they have and the rest were only brown noses, got lucky or were on a Holiday drinking trip.
It should be enough to know that every medal is cherished by the people that have them.


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## Fishbone Jones (17 Jul 2005)

Kenneth,

In regards to your last. I concur.


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## Young KH (17 Jul 2005)

But one more wouldn't hurt. LOL

Keep on smiling even if it hurts.


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## Sub_Guy (9 Jul 2006)

Its back as bill C-231.


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## Gunner (10 Jul 2006)

http://192.197.82.11/PDF/39/1/parlbus/chambus/house/journals/010votes.pdf


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## George Wallace (10 Jul 2006)

Here we go again.  Rehashing the last 10 pages.


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## Fishbone Jones (10 Jul 2006)

Not really. If anyone has a great interest, read all the preceding posts. If you have something that has not been covered, and is relevent, contact a Mod. At this point, nothing has changed. According to Gunner's post, it's had first reading and will have it's second when the House next sits. We'll take it up then.


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## John Nayduk (2 Jan 2007)

Instead of a new medal, why not a "Domestic Operations" bar to the SSM?


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