# Aircrew coping as well or better than regular soldiers"



## SupersonicMax (15 Aug 2010)

What about the distance between a sniper and its target?  Pilots can kill considerably more people in 1 pass than an infantryman may kill in a career, but they don't seem to be affected by it to the same level that someone in a front line ground unit does.  I think that being detached from the action has a something to do.


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## aesop081 (15 Aug 2010)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I think that being detached from the action has a something to do.



Things are more detached and take on the form of a video game so-to-speak. I dont get to see the eyes of those i target, making very impersonal. The target is just a green dot or a line on a screen. Sometimes i catch a glimpse of the target itself but usualy not for long and rarely see people.


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## SupersonicMax (15 Aug 2010)

You can't see people there?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeFMPMo7p90&feature=related


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## aesop081 (15 Aug 2010)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> You can't see people there?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeFMPMo7p90&feature=related



I know you are french but even you can understand the use of "i".

Overland operations being a comparatively less consuming task for me, i dont often get to see the persons being targeted. Even when i do, the detachment is still there. Its just something on a video screen.

In the maritime environment, if i see people before they blow up, its a cold day in hell.


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## SupersonicMax (15 Aug 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I know you are french but even you can understand the use of "i".



My point what that in today's environment and especially with the kit we have on our aircraft, it's not uncommon (more than sometimes) to clearly see people prior to and after impact.


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## HItorMiss (15 Aug 2010)

You can seem them clearer and better with the TI on the LAV cannon then you can with any Sniper or Lightening pod...And guess what you can kill a whole lot more of them then with most bombs or Gun runs. Also who do you think sees the clear non video camera effects of any CAS mission I know it isn't the pilot.


Trust me on this Max.....


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## aesop081 (15 Aug 2010)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> My point what that in today's environment and especially with the kit we have on our aircraft, it's not uncommon (more than sometimes) to clearly see people prior to and after impact.



There are 3 aircraft in the CF that cary offensive weapons. 2 of them rarely ever see the actual target before it explodes and people die a pretty horrible death.

i'm more than aware of what the sniper pod can do..........i have much better resolution and range.


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## SupersonicMax (15 Aug 2010)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> You can seem them clearer and better with the TI on the LAV cannon then you can with any Sniper or Lightening pod...



Exactly my point...


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## zipperhead_cop (15 Aug 2010)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> You can't see people there?



Oh wow, you are so incredibly mentally superior to everyone who is a underling ground pounder.  Truly, your sweat must cure cancer  :  Maybe you should teach the sniper course?


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## aesop081 (15 Aug 2010)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Oh wow, you are so incredibly mentally superior to everyone who is a underling ground pounder.  Truly, your sweat must cure cancer  :  Maybe you should teach the sniper course?



I beleive he was responding to me. Quite obviously, he did not understand what i was talking about.


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## HItorMiss (15 Aug 2010)

Seriously maybe we are all misunderstanding each other here. Max can you clarify what it is you are trying to say because I for one am confused.


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## zipperhead_cop (15 Aug 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I beleive he was responding to me. Quite obviously, he did not understand what i was talking about.



Not at all.  Ultra Max seems to be suggesting that pilots (or maybe just him) are somehow better able to cope with their "death from above" than the guys on the ground.  Seems a bit ingenuous and denigrating to both combat pilots and snipers.  
Perhaps it's just me.


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## SupersonicMax (15 Aug 2010)

Allright, reference my first post....   The being physically far from a fight (while still participating in the fight) may have an influence on how someone will be affected mentally after.  Pilots and sniper have one thing in common: they are not close to the action.  Apparently they both are better able to cope with killing (the article clearly states that snipers do and I know many pilots that did and do not show signs of PTSD) They act from a distance, contrary to the front line unit fighting close(r) to the enemy.  

I was using pilots as an example of distance to relate to snipers.


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## aesop081 (15 Aug 2010)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Not at all.  Ultra Max seems to be suggesting that pilots (or maybe just him) are somehow better able to cope with their "death from above" than the guys on the ground.  Seems a bit ingenuous and denigrating to both combat pilots and snipers.
> Perhaps it's just me.



i dont think its a question of coping better , but one of being more detached from the results that the guy on the ground.

Wether we see people or not when we destroy something, its still just a dot on a screen............Snipers still can see the details of their targets....faces, expressions.......the distance is not that great comparatively.


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## midget-boyd91 (15 Aug 2010)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Allright, reference my first post....   The being physically far from a fight (while still participating in the fight) may have an influence on how someone will be affected mentally after.  Pilots and sniper have one thing in common: they are not close to the action.  Apparently they both are better able to cope with killing (the article clearly states that snipers do and I know many pilots that did and do not show signs of PTSD) They act from a distance, contrary to the front line unit fighting close(r) to the enemy.
> 
> I was using pilots as an example of distance to relate to snipers.



A paramedic hopelessly giving medical treatment to a dying person everyday will be more likely to suffer PTSD than someone who stands down the road and watches what is happening.  From what I gather, you're talking about that kind of scenerio? 
(And no, I'm not saying that the pilots stand down the road and just watch while those on the front do all the work)


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## SupersonicMax (16 Aug 2010)

Yes, physical distance from the events, but more if 1 paramedic was giving care and the other standing 200m away. (similarity in training)


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## Illegio (16 Aug 2010)

I think it's important to note, in the context of the study, that airmen do not have to worry about IEDs, rockets, mortars, ambushes and the like to the same extent that someone on the ground does. This *is* important to note, mind, as none of the top concerns or stressors in this study were related to killing anyone, but rather, knowing someone who'd been injured or killed, having a member of your unit become a casualty, etc...


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## SupersonicMax (16 Aug 2010)

Illegio said:
			
		

> I think it's important to note, in the context of the study, that airmen do not have to worry about IEDs, rockets, mortars, ambushes and the like to the same extent that someone on the ground does.



And I think we can say that being physically distant from the fight will "protect" you from all this (being a sniper or aircrew) to some extent.


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## Franko (16 Aug 2010)

I get what Max is throwing down....it's Nintendo syndrome.

Seeing your target on a screen at distance gives you a mental "insulation/ distance" from the effects of your actions on the enemy, thus lessening the effect over time in the development of OSI/ PTSD.

I would think (and have talked to troops that have) shooting a guy in the face at 10' is a whole hell of alot different than shooting Taliban RPG teams at 75' with 120mm.

My 0.02 Afghanis worth.

Regards


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## George Wallace (16 Aug 2010)

> 75'.   120mm.




Cannister ?


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## Franko (16 Aug 2010)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Cannister ?



HEAT.


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## TimBit (16 Aug 2010)

Grossman talks about this at length in "On Killing". It has been a trend in warfare for centuries to try and increase the distance with the enemy, in part to protect oneself but also to make an intimately repulsive act (the killing of another human being) less repulsive. Case in point, WWII, artillery accounted for over 50% of battlefield casualties, but accounted for a smaller percentage of shell shock than infantry or armour. Death from above is somewhere in there.

I think however the enormity of the action must account for something. I wonder if, for example, an ICBM crew could get some fomr of PTSD, knowing that their actions led to millions of death. I guess it`s part of the reasons why targetting packages would not have included description of the target.


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## bdave (6 Sep 2010)

"On killing" is excellent.
Dehumanizing people would definitely make them easier to kill and lessen the effects of PTSD.
"Destroying a target" as opposed to "killing an enemy".


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## Greymatters (6 Sep 2010)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> And I think we can say that being physically distant from the fight will "protect" you from all this (being a sniper or aircrew) to some extent.



Snipers and pilots know better than anyone else that distance means nothing, and none of them that Ive known thought that distance would 'protect' them...


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## aesop081 (6 Sep 2010)

:

Its is less a question of physical distance as it is a question of detachment. What aircrews kill on most occasions is a dot on a radar screen or a figure on an video screen. It is easy not to think of those targets as human. Sometimes its even easier as the target is just a set of coordinates.


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## dogger1936 (6 Sep 2010)

Something else to throw out there is where each sleep/ sleep deprivation.
Sleeping in the relative safety of KAF compared to Lakokel (spelling?) or Zangabad etc. Waking in the middle of the night to load bodies on a chopper due to a lucky munition would be a different experience that a pilot would have. Required sleep due to the technical enviro of a pilot compared to the nil sleep req for ground pounders. Just for food for thought anyway.

The first person I killed I had an erection, my hands shaking perma smile on my face. My stomach was quivery and to this very day I can see the mans face in the site. Once I seen his body after the dustcloud settled I felt like a God. And in fact it sorta was godlike...in the sense of taking someones life. I done a lot of thinking about that first one while I was there. I had just stopped someones existence. And that's a very powerful thing.

None of those following that particular first one had a big effect on my mind etc. Excitement....for sure! But much less thinking about it after. Congratulatory Perrier when the situation allowed and carry on with task.

 Kiowa pilots were shooting people in the very close and personal zone as well.


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## Good2Golf (6 Sep 2010)

UAV operators can get messed up, especially when in some cases they are on a different continent, and leave for home after duty, and have to try and be normal with a family after potentially targeteering/kinetically effecting combatants.  There are also a few different groupings of aircrew, as some are very much closely connected to the dispersal of thousands of rounds a minute at some fairly short ranges, and more recently get shot down themselves.  

Is there a reference to a study or something that I missed seeing referred to in this thread?  I have heard of such studies for UAV operators but don't know the context within which the OP makes his post.

I would venture to say there is just as much variation amongst different kinds of aircrew in combat and their respective experiences as there are amongst the combat, combat support and combat service support soldiers on the ground.  A soldier involved in a short-range TIC would likely feel more effect than a CAS pilot dropping a GBU on a grid.  On the other hand, a Griffon flight engineer and/or door gunner taking out insurgents on short final to an LZ may feel more effect than the crew of an M777 back at a FOB.

_
*edit - just saw the other post that spawned this one...*_


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## SupersonicMax (6 Sep 2010)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Snipers and pilots know better than anyone else that distance means nothing, and none of them that Ive known thought that distance would 'protect' them...



I am a pilot and I can tell you that between shooting someone 40 some odd miles out with a missile (or bombing a coordinate/building) and killing someone 100m away, I know which one I would have more nightmares about.


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## HItorMiss (6 Sep 2010)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I am a pilot and I can tell you that between shooting someone 40 some odd miles out with a missile (or bombing a coordinate/building) and killing someone 100m away, I know which one I would have more nightmares about.




Properly trained you likely wont have nightmares about either, I have done the short range thing more then once I have no feeling about it one way or the other.... My nightmarss comes from the guys on my side I couldn't save or decision I made that cost friends/mentors their lives.


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## mariomike (6 Sep 2010)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I am a pilot and I can tell you that between shooting someone 40 some odd miles out with a missile (or bombing a coordinate/building) and killing someone 100m away, I know which one I would have more nightmares about.



This is regarding Canadian airmen from World War Two, so it may no longer be relevant. But, for what it is worth:
"The notion of killing German civilians severally or in bulk troubled only a tiny handful."
Bomber Command by Max Hastings.
page 146

Paul Tibbets, pilot of the Enola Gay, reportedly said, "I sleep clearly every night.":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Tibbets#Interviews


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## dogger1936 (7 Sep 2010)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> Properly trained you likely wont have nightmares about either, I have done the short range thing more then once I have no feeling about it one way or the other.... My nightmarss comes from the guys on my side I couldn't save or decision I made that cost friends/mentors their lives.



Concur. Although  I wouldnt say "properly trained". I have zero problem with the killing of any taliban myself. However some people do. Well trained or not.
Most of my issues stem's from near death, friendly cas,and anger at the lack of action by some.


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## mariomike (13 Sep 2010)

I came across this and would like to add it to the topic:
"...the term “morality of altitude” that was coined in to reference the disconnection of the pilot at 10,000 feet
from the destruction caused by bombing on the ground. This disconnection led to a lower incidence of
psychological problems amongst USAF pilots than their US Army colleagues on the ground during the
Vietnam conflict.":
http://ftp.rta.nato.int/public/PubFullText/RTO/MP/RTO-MP-HFM-136/MP-HFM-136-12.pdf

Regarding "10,000 feet". I have read a lot of photocopies of RCAF Form 540 "Operations Record Book" and Form 541 "Details of Work carried out", and they often report bombing primary targets from altitudes above 20,000 feet, at night, during WW2.
This would indicate that the "disconnection" was perhaps greater than during the Vietnam War.


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## renemongeau (20 Oct 2019)

Pilots work with really good technicians, they are not alone and they know their jets are well inspected. I am not a soldier. I don’t have a specific culture and training. I only think an order is not a debate so you are only responsible for. Dealing with our emotions is not weak, you can’t ignore any kind of information in communication. Myself, it is a big issue. If you cheat your wife, don’t invite me. I don’t know why I extract all information from someone, this is unwilling harassment. Perhaps, a mental unwanted defence system. If you think about something, you will say it with me. 

  However, Are you seriously not affected by some news when you are a pilot?

​

https://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/19/national/us-pilots-avoid-prosecution-for-bombing-canadian-troops.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hawk_Down_(film)


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