# Murder in Israeli Settlements



## OldSolduer (16 Mar 2011)

Please see link. Mods, if I'm off base, let me know! Thanks

This is barbaric, Justin Trudeau notwithstanding.

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2011/03/16/massacre_of_the_innocents/


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## Nemo888 (16 Mar 2011)

When I was a boy Palestinian kids threw rocks at Israeli military forces in the occupied territories.  This was the extent of their "terrorist" actions. Over 40 years of occupation by a foreign force who took their land and property has radicalized them. They know the Israeli's are just biding time and have no intention of making any meaningful concessions. These are people who are citizens of a country that no longer exists who have been living in refugee camps that get smaller every year while their population increases. They were gone since AD 70. After 1900 years it's too late to come back and take your land back IMO.

 It's like the Iroquois coming back to the Ottawa Valley in the year *3711* and kicking everyone into crappy reservations, taking all their property and revoking all their citizenship rights. 

The Israeli's are religious fanatics like any others. They believe deep down that without Israel they will be exterminated and to my mind act irrationally out of a misguided sense of self preservation. Eventually their blatantly evil actions will come back on them.


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## Edward Campbell (16 Mar 2011)

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> ...
> The Israeli's are religious fanatics like any others. *They believe deep down that without Israel they will be exterminated* and to my mind act irrationally out of a misguided sense of self preservation. Eventually their blatantly evil actions will come back on them.




The historical record says their belief is well founded.

Were I a believing Jew I would never, under any circumstances put any faith in any non-Jew, not any American, not any Canadian, to protect my fellow Jews - everywhere  and anywhere. I, were I a believing Jew, would assume that every Christian and every Muslim wants me and my kind exterminated and that no Buddhist or Taoist or Hindu will lift a finger to stop them from accomplishing that goal.

I suspect that Israel, as a safe "home" for the Jews is unsustainable; eventually the Arabs _et al_ must win. The survivors, the remnants of the next _holocaust_ (because that's what it will be) will have to live amongst us - and we, in the _enlightened_ West, have a bloody poor record where Jews are concerned.


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## a_majoor (16 Mar 2011)

Demographics are not on the side of Israel; I was at a talk Salim Mansur gave a few weeks ago and he pointed out that if every Israeli citizen were sent to Egypt they would just fill one neighbourhood in Cairo.

The issue here is do we support an outpost of Liberal Democracy, individual freedom, property rights and the Rule of Law, or do we not? Our record here is not very encouraging, looking at differential law enforcement in Caledonia, or the silence about human rights abuses in the Islamic crescent (or even “honour killings” right here in Canada) makes it difficult to suggest we will support Israel as a matter of principle. If we are not willing to support our principles at home, then the future looks bleak, and not just for Israel (our lack of support for the Green Revolution and the revolt in Libya must speak volumes for the oppressed people over there). 

As for the act itself, it just speaks of how terribly deformed the society the Palestinians have built for themselves really is, and suggests that after the next holocaust, the supposed Palestinian State will really be a poor, oppressive sinkhole with no hope or future for its inhabitants.


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## Infanteer (16 Mar 2011)

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> These are people who are citizens of a country that no longer exists who have been living in refugee camps that get smaller every year while their population increases. They were gone since AD 70. After 1900 years it's too late to come back and take your land back IMO.
> 
> It's like the Iroquois coming back to the Ottawa Valley in the year *3711* and kicking everyone into crappy reservations, taking all their property and revoking all their citizenship rights.



Migrations happen against the backdrop of good or bad circumstances - whether they are 20, 200 or 2000 years, we need to acknowledge that peoples move and accept the new realities.  Just ask the people of Konigsberg.


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## OldSolduer (17 Mar 2011)

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> The Israeli's are religious fanatics like any others. They believe deep down that without Israel they will be exterminated and to my mind act irrationally out of a misguided sense of self preservation. Eventually their blatantly evil actions will come back on them.



So the kids get murdered? Am I to understand you support this????


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## jeffb (17 Mar 2011)

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> Eventually their blatantly evil actions will come back on them.



What "blatantly evil actions" can possibly be ascribed to young kids that would justify such an attack? I can accept that many Palestinians have legitimate grievances with Israeli policy but murdering children in their sleep is never OK. 

I'm sure I've misread your post and you are in no way justifying this.


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## Rifleman62 (17 Mar 2011)

Thucydides: 





> .....suggests that after the next holocaust, the supposed Palestinian State will really be a poor, oppressive


 *radioactive*


> sinkhole with no hope or future for its inhabitants.



I added a word for you if you don't mind.

If civilized mankind thinks events today in Japan are scary, wait till Iran or the hermit kingdom use/provide/enable any kind/size of nuclear device in Israel or the US. 

I am of the firm belief this kind of event will eventually happen.


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## Redeye (18 Mar 2011)

Israelis are not all religious fanatics, there's a lot more complex things going on there really.  Probably the best book I've read on it, and granted it is a few years old, is Thomas L. Friedman's book From Beirut To Jerusalem, which is a pretty thorough primer on geopolitics of the whole region.

Your comparison to the idea of the Iroquois coming back years later isn't entirely out to lunch though.  The Zionist movement essentially did just that - they showed up and claimed what's now Israel to some extent as their "birthright".  It's important not to conflate Zionism with Judaism (there are Jewish people who oppose Zionism and many of the actions of the State of Israel), nor to assume either group is monolithic in their aims and ideas.  Read Friedman's book and you'll come away with a much deeper understanding of the situation.  In fact, I think it's time I read it again.

As ERC (to his usual standard) eloquently pointed out, the Jewish people don't have a totally unfounded mistrust of everyone else.

That said, when Balfour signed the letter to Rothschild endorsing the idea of Zionists setting in the British Mandate of Palestine, one must wonder what he thought the outcome would be.

Maybe I'm optimistic, but perhaps if Israel allowed the Palestinians to achieve some sort of statehood with a viable economy there could be peace in the region.  As long as Palestinians are essentially prisoners on their own land (what little of it is left) with little opportunity economically, there will be a struggle there, and it will be violent.  It's fairly easy for religious radicals to rally support in such an environment. Until such time as that happens - which means meaningful concessions as you put it, I suspect the region is doomed to constant violence.



			
				Nemo888 said:
			
		

> When I was a boy Palestinian kids threw rocks at Israeli military forces in the occupied territories.  This was the extent of their "terrorist" actions. Over 40 years of occupation by a foreign force who took their land and property has radicalized them. They know the Israeli's are just biding time and have no intention of making any meaningful concessions. These are people who are citizens of a country that no longer exists who have been living in refugee camps that get smaller every year while their population increases. They were gone since AD 70. After 1900 years it's too late to come back and take your land back IMO.
> 
> It's like the Iroquois coming back to the Ottawa Valley in the year *3711* and kicking everyone into crappy reservations, taking all their property and revoking all their citizenship rights.
> 
> The Israeli's are religious fanatics like any others. They believe deep down that without Israel they will be exterminated and to my mind act irrationally out of a misguided sense of self preservation. Eventually their blatantly evil actions will come back on them.


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## Redeye (18 Mar 2011)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I suspect that Israel, as a safe "home" for the Jews is unsustainable; eventually the Arabs _et al_ must win. The survivors, the remnants of the next _holocaust_ (because that's what it will be) will have to live amongst us - and we, in the _enlightened_ West, have a bloody poor record where Jews are concerned.



One wonders if it's demonstrated far more stability than its enablers expected.  One wonders if it was expected that the Arabs would "sort it out" a lot sooner.

Further to my last post - what I'm trying to say, while I abhor violence particularly against innocents - children - the Israelis are not exactly in a position to claim moral high ground.  This morning I had a very interesting - fascinating - discussion with a client of mine, an Iraqi woman who's been here for about six years.  She hit right on the view she sees as being fairly common in the Arab world of Israel - not animosity to the people - to Jewish people - but to the State and its actions.  She highlighted to me that growing up in Iraq (and she's not the first Iraqi to tell me this), no one cared about people's religions.  Sunnis, Shiites, Christians, and so on all got along.  It was what Israel - the state - did that was the target of people's ire. Things like the Sabra & Shatila Massacre are very well remembered there.


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## SevenSixTwo (18 Mar 2011)

A family was murdered in their home by terrorists.

They were murdered because the people who murdered them lost many relatives to the relatives of this family.

But let's look at this statisically. The family of four that was murdered now causes the IDF to murder/eliminate/destroy/kill 100 terrorists/civilians/people.

Do people actually think Israel can kill that many people in retaliation for the four that were murdered an expect people to do nothing????


In 2007 for every Israeli that died that year 25 Palestinians were killed including combatants and civilians by the IDF, militia groups or individual Israeli's.***


***(United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs OCHA) "Israeli-Palestinian Fatalities since 2000 - Key Trends"



That's a fact.


Twenty Five different families that have lost a relative is going to produce a lot more pissed off people then 1 Israeli family losing one person.



I am not saying a solution is here I am just trying to get people to look at this on a balanced scale.


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## The Bread Guy (18 Mar 2011)

SevenSixTwo said:
			
		

> In 2007 for every Israeli that died that year 25 Palestinians were killed including combatants and civilians by the IDF, militia groups or individual Israeli's.***
> 
> ***(United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs OCHA) "Israeli-Palestinian Fatalities since 2000 - Key Trends"
> 
> ...


Are you saying that just because the stats for one year say 25 Palestinians died for every Israeli, the IDF is going to kill the same ratio of Palestinians after this incident?  I don't think that's how stats like this work....

Another thing to keep in mind:  on BOTH sides, all it takes is a very small group of splinter hotheads to do really horrible things, allowing the other side to demonize the whole group.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (18 Mar 2011)

SevenSixTwo said:
			
		

> That's a fact.



Careful what you call a "fact".  Did you touch it, taste it, see it, etc......?


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## SevenSixTwo (18 Mar 2011)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Careful what you call a "fact".  Did you touch it, taste it, see it, etc......?



Well, I didn't touch you, taste you, see you but I assume you exist, somewhere.

Or are you saying that you don't exist because I can't touch you, taste you or see you.

Don't answer it's rhetorical.

We are derailing into the world of useless Philosophy where people argue with each other over wheither or not a chair exists.


EDIT: @Milnews

I was simply stating that IDF reaction causes more deaths than Palestinian reaction. How many Israelis died until it caused the whole Gaza fiasco?


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## Redeye (18 Mar 2011)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Are you saying that just because the stats for one year say 25 Palestinians died for every Israeli, the IDF is going to kill the same ratio of Palestinians after this incident?  I don't think that's how stats like this work....



I don't think that's what he's saying - he's highlighting that proportionately larger number of Palestinians were killed (often with little worldwide notice) by Israelis - particularly the IDF, and that it's not unreasonable to expect that some of those "hotheads" you refer to would seek to extract some manner of revenge.  That, of course, solves nothing... but it seems to be the reality on the ground.  The 25:1 ratio was in one particular year, and 2007 IIRC featured a lot of violence in the Gaza Strip... I don't think it's a constant ratio by any means, but certainly a great many Palestianians including civilians die violent deaths at the hands of Israelis too.

Another thing to keep in mind:  on BOTH sides, all it takes is a very small group of splinter hotheads to do really horrible things, allowing the other side to demonize the whole group.
[/quote]


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## The Bread Guy (18 Mar 2011)

I must have misunderstood this part, then:


> The family of four that was murdered now causes the IDF to murder/eliminate/destroy/kill 100 terrorists/civilians/people.


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## SevenSixTwo (18 Mar 2011)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> I must have misunderstood this part, then:



I guess you did, I guess I should explain it more even though someone else already explainted it for me.

Family of four is dead because many people died causing the creation of fanatics that went and killed that family of four.

You may deny this but this could potentially cause SEVERE backlash against Palestinians.


It only took 3 Israeli deaths to sprout the entire Gaza conflict and a few missles that landed in the Desert. (Later missles hit civilian targets during the conflict that caused wounded)


Also, I apologize for saying strictly the IDF. I must also include Israeli citizens, or Israeli militants that also cause deaths. That is my error.

There are tons of factors but eventually it leads to the 1:25 ratio. Maybe the killing of four can cause new ROE's which, could end up in more being killed. There are many many factors.


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## a_majoor (18 Mar 2011)

Redeye said:
			
		

> Maybe I'm optimistic, but perhaps if Israel allowed the Palestinians to achieve some sort of statehood with a viable economy there could be peace in the region.



And on what basis do you think this will happen? The Israelis withdraw from part of Lebanon and atacks intensify. The Israelis withdraw from the Gaza strip, leaving millions of dollars of infrastructure behind and the Palastinians destroy it and use the land to fire rockets and launch suicide bomber attacks. Translations of Palestinian documents (i.e. not meant for western consumption)  still call for the destruction of Israel and the murder of her citizens.

The Palestinians have the territory and ability to establish the civic institutions of statehood, but what do they do with their opportunity?


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## SevenSixTwo (18 Mar 2011)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> And on what basis do you think this will happen? The Israelis withdraw from part of Lebanon and atacks intensify. The Israelis withdraw from the Gaza strip, leaving millions of dollars of infrastructure behind and the Palastinians destroy it and use the land to fire rockets and launch suicide bomber attacks. Translations of Palestinian documents (i.e. not meant for western consumption)  still call for the destruction of Israel and the murder of her citizens.
> 
> The Palestinians have the territory and ability to establish the civic institutions of statehood, but what do they do with their opportunity?




That's why I made my post. To point out the hidden opposite side of the coin. To attempt to quell ignorant posts that Israel is an angel and does everything for Palestine like "leaving millions of dollars behind of infrastructure in Gaza". Meanwhile, Gaza lost 2 billion dollars of assets such as infrastructure to the Gaza Raids/Invasion/Attack/Whatever you want to call it. 


Israel had an opportunity to live peacefully in Palenstine before 1948 but instead they chose to make weapons and attack the British/Palestinians until their voice for land was heard.


The country was made with terrorist attacks.


Or are you trying to tell me this bullet factory under British-Palestinian rule owned by Israeli militants was making plush toys?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9SQbqjAMz0



Your saying it's wrong for a people who have been there for over 2,500 years to be angry and attack people who disappeared from the land for over 1900 years, come back and claim it's theirs?


Who's to say Palestine won't get their country back by attacking Israelis? After all that's exactly how Israel got their country.


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## Redeye (18 Mar 2011)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> And on what basis do you think this will happen? The Israelis withdraw from part of Lebanon and atacks intensify. The Israelis withdraw from the Gaza strip, leaving millions of dollars of infrastructure behind and the Palastinians destroy it and use the land to fire rockets and launch suicide bomber attacks.



I don't know if this is a typo, or a deliberately ignorant statement.  The Israelis destroyed the airport. The Israelis enforce a sea blockade against Gaza.  And why do they blockade it?  Well, the Palestinians had one of those "democratic elections" where they elected Hamas.  I guess democracy's good for them when they elect leaders Israel likes, is that it?  That blockade prevents cement from coming into Gaza - a rather crucial item for rebuilding.  It forces Gazans to depend on extensive smuggling networks for things most of us take for granted.

Further it's not "the Palestinians" that fire rockets and launch suicide bomber attacks, it's a radical fringe.  However, given the rather bleak situation they face in the Israelis who showed up, took the place over, and now strangle them economically, frankly I'm not surprised that radicals get at least tacit support.  Fatah didn't do a good job running the place, so Hamas campaigned and won. 



			
				Thucydides said:
			
		

> Translations of Palestinian documents (i.e. not meant for western consumption)  still call for the destruction of Israel and the murder of her citizens.



Source?  I don't find this surprising if true though. Hama did drop the destruction of Israel explicitly from their platform before the 2006 elections, and even made overtures that they'd accept a two-state solution along pre-1967 border lines.  Remember, though, they view Israel as an occupying force on their land.  Palestinians refer to the creation of Israel and their subsequent exodus as _an nakba_ - "the catastrophe".



			
				Thucydides said:
			
		

> The Palestinians have the territory and ability to establish the civic institutions of statehood, but what do they do with their opportunity?



The best they can with the extremely limited opportunity they have, I suspect.


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## a_majoor (18 Mar 2011)

While you can always hide your head in the sand, deny the facts (and it won'tmatter what sources are provided, to you they are always wrong, biased, made up etc.), but the Palestinians have taken their opportunities and thrown them away. IF, as you say, a small radical fringe is responsible for their present misery, why have the majority not risen up and swept them away?

There is no evidence anywhere that the Palistinians have any true desire to ground arms and actually build a state and live in peace with their neighbours (you might inquire as to how the Jordanians reacted to the Palistinians, or why other Arab nations are not welcoming of Palestinians on their soil, outside of the obvious need to keep people distracted from what is happening in their own countries). Yassar Arafat sparked the Infantada despite (or perhaps because of) being offered something like 90% of what was demanded at Camp David; perhaps it would be an interesting research project to find out why?

In the end. the question for ourselves is do we support a fellow liberal democratic state on principle (as we have comparable principles and thus mutual interests), or do we not? Despite what Edward says, I believe that to abandon our principles would be bad not just for Israel, but also the long term future of the Middle East and also for ourselves. We see here in Canada that abandoning our principles is bringing things lke differential law enforcemens and violence in Caledonia, academics, politicians and human right advocates becoming silent in the face of crimes like "honour killings" in Canada and hosts of other issues beginning to surface. 

So on principle I condemn the killers and support any eforts to bring them to justice.


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## Redeye (18 Mar 2011)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> While you can always hide your head in the sand, deny the facts (and it won'tmatter what sources are provided, to you they are always wrong, biased, made up etc.), but the Palestinians have taken their opportunities and thrown them away. IF, as you say, a small radical fringe is responsible for their present misery, why have the majority not risen up and swept them away?



I'm not sure why.  I'm not Palestinian.  I'm thinking of the concept of learned helplessness being at play though.

As for denying the facts, the FACT is that the Israelis have contributed far more to the destruction of infrastructure than the Palestinian general public.  Period.  Full Stop.  There is no denying this.  Israeli bombs destroyed the airport in Gaza.  The Israeli naval blockade strangles the Palestinian economy.  That's not opinion, those are the facts.



			
				Thucydides said:
			
		

> There is no evidence anywhere that the Palistinians have any true desire to ground arms and actually build a state and live in peace with their neighbours (you might inquire as to how the Jordanians reacted to the Palistinians, or why other Arab nations are not welcoming of Palestinians on their soil, outside of the obvious need to keep people distracted from what is happening in their own countries). Yassar Arafat sparked the Infantada despite (or perhaps because of) being offered something like 90% of what was demanded at Camp David; perhaps it would be an interesting research project to find out why?



Palestinians showing up en masse in Jordan would have been as well received as Israelis showing up on Palestinian land.  I don't know if that was the reason, but it seems to make sense.



			
				Thucydides said:
			
		

> In the end. the question for ourselves is do we support a fellow liberal democratic state on principle (as we have comparable principles and thus mutual interests), or do we not? Despite what Edward says, I believe that to abandon our principles would be bad not just for Israel, but also the long term future of the Middle East and also for ourselves. We see here in Canada that abandoning our principles is bringing things lke differential law enforcemens and violence in Caledonia, academics, politicians and human right advocates becoming silent in the face of crimes like "honour killings" in Canada and hosts of other issues beginning to surface.



OHNOCREEPINGSHARIARUNFORTHEHILLS!  :facepalm:

Do I support Israel purely on principle?  No.  I don't.  Do I have animosity toward the people that live there?  No.  Of course not.  I think their politicians have been as complicit in the mess there as anyone else, and the fact that it was the Palestinians' land to begin when they arrived and had a UN establish a state for them with little concern for the people that already lived there tilts the scale against them.  That the Israelis have slaughtered civilians in the Occupied Territories while the world apologizes for them does do.  Yes, Palestinians have engaged in violence too.  Both sides are guilty.  Both sides need to find a solution.

So on principle I condemn the killers and support any eforts to bring them to justice.
[/quote]


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## SevenSixTwo (18 Mar 2011)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> While you can always hide your head in the sand, deny the facts (and it won'tmatter what sources are provided, to you they are always wrong, biased, made up etc.), but the Palestinians have taken their opportunities and thrown them away. IF, as you say, a small radical fringe is responsible for their present misery, why have the majority not risen up and swept them away?
> 
> There is no evidence anywhere that the Palistinians have any true desire to ground arms and actually build a state and live in peace with their neighbours (you might inquire as to how the Jordanians reacted to the Palistinians, or why other Arab nations are not welcoming of Palestinians on their soil, outside of the obvious need to keep people distracted from what is happening in their own countries). Yassar Arafat sparked the Infantada despite (or perhaps because of) being offered something like 90% of what was demanded at Camp David; perhaps it would be an interesting research project to find out why?
> 
> ...




So on principle your supporting "eforts" to bring Israel to justice. Rather than appointing "impartial Israeli investigations".



Being a powerful nation BELIEVE it or not comes with responsibility. Canada doesn't go raid/kill Native reservations or Inuits everytime a Canadian is killed. Nor did it do an invasion of Quebec just because the FLQ killed a few people. It always looks for the people responsible rather than punishing those who are in the country.


Show me another nation that attacks another nation due to the death of three citizens (President's are excluded from this obviously).




Following Israeli doctrine the US should have been using armoured bull dozers to level Iraq and Afghanistan after 9/11 and telling them go to live somewhere else while placing Israeli citizens where those old homes used to be.


Does that sound responsible?


Or does it sound more responsible to hunt down those who kill and are actually responsible while rebuilding the state, the infrastructure and the homes of people while HELPING form a new government that isn't as crazy as the Taliban or Saddam.


To me the strategy in Iraq and Afghanistan is much better dropping bombs on U.N. Humanitarian buildings.

It's almost as if Israel read the strategic doctrine manual made by USSR for the Soviet Campaign in Afghanistan which, was basically kill everyone. Over two million civilians were killed in the Soviet War in Afghanistan. Around twenty thousand died since the 2001 invasion over a time period of 10 years!


What if Israel did the same in Gaza for 10 years? They ended up with around 1,200 Palenstinian casualties in a month. If the same level of conflict remained Israel would have killed/inflicted/accidentially/caused 1,440,000 deaths in civilians. (Population is only 450,000 in Gaza P.S)

Now you might say oh blah blah blah IDF is friggen awesome and we need to support it no matter what and who cares if they killed 1,400 people! 

Sounds awfully similar to USSR in Afghanistan.



Well 1,400 people is 0.3% of the countries population. If that were the U.S. it's the equivalent of killing around 1,000,000 million people.


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## Maelstrom (18 Mar 2011)

SevenSixTwo said:
			
		

> Israel had an opportunity to live peacefully in Palenstine before 1948 but instead they chose to make weapons and attack the British/Palestinians until their voice for land was heard.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Who's to say Palestine won't get their country back by attacking Israelis? After all that's exactly how Israel got their country.



Since the fall of the Ottoman Empire a Jewish home was to be formed, and of course a second state from the partition of the Palestinian Terrtory. They have every right to claim a state as Palenstine. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually a two state solution with Jerusalem being an internationally controlled city was agreed to by the UN and Isreal, but not by the Arab League. 

Isreal has had to defend itself from the start.


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## cavalryman (18 Mar 2011)

I post the following without comment on my part. 

_*IDF, settlers save Arab baby*_
Saving life after massacre: IDF troops, paramedics save life of Palestinian woman giving birth in settlement where Fogel relatives sitting Shiva. Soldier: It felt amazing to hold girl in my arms, know we did something good

More at link
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4043536,00.html


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## SevenSixTwo (18 Mar 2011)

Maelstrom said:
			
		

> Since the fall of the Ottoman Empire a Jewish home was to be formed, and of course a second state from the partition of the Palestinian Terrtory. They have every right to claim a state as Palenstine.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ...




The top part of quote isn't mine, the second half is.


It's disrespectful to say Israel did nothing but defend itself towards the British soldiers who lost their lives against Israeli attacks before Israel was made.


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## Maelstrom (18 Mar 2011)

No, both quotes I made were from the same post. They were yours


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## SevenSixTwo (18 Mar 2011)

Maelstrom said:
			
		

> No, both quotes I made were from the same post. They were yours



Ah, nevermind I misread what you said and for some reason thought I said something about the Ottoman's.

Either way, the ball got rolling for Israel because of their offensive actions. Jewish population after Ottoman empire fall was almost minimal in Palenstine.


My point still stands that if Israel could win it's country through violence then why can't Palenstine.


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## OldSolduer (18 Mar 2011)

SevenSixTwo said:
			
		

> My point still stands that if Israel could win it's country through violence then why can't Palenstine.



Because maybe Israeli soldiers don't slit the throats of kids.


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## SevenSixTwo (18 Mar 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Because maybe Israeli soldiers don't slit the throats of kids.



See, this is the kind of ignorant posting I hate to see.

Please tell me how slitting kids throats by the Israeli militant group Irgun, blowing up super markets AND blowing up a hotel is any different.


The very FIRST _Palestinian_ militant group in Palenstine was the Black Hand which, was made as an Anti-Zionist militant group to fight against groups such as the Israeli Irgun terrorist group.




EDIT: Italicized word added.


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## George Wallace (18 Mar 2011)

Why do I get the feeling that you are Palestinian?


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## SevenSixTwo (18 Mar 2011)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Why do I get the feeling that you are Palestinian?




You gave me a chuckle, I am not Palestinian but the reason why I laughed is because today I saw a "How to spot poor argumentative skills" and one of them said:

"You attack the speaker rather than attacking the argument.

Ex 1) You're an idiot, so you must be wrong 

Ex 2) You must be a Native since you support Natives.

Ex 3) You support Global Warming? Go away you Hippie!"


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## OldSolduer (18 Mar 2011)

SevenSixTwo said:
			
		

> See, this is the kind of ignorant posting I hate to see.
> 
> Please tell me how slitting kids throats by the Israeli militant group Irgun, blowing up super markets AND blowing up a hotel is any different.
> 
> ...


So that makes it OK for PLO types ie Hamas and Hezbollah etc to slit the throats of kids? 

And I'm the ignorant one.

BTW, I looked at your profile Seven Six two.
 Its empty. 

Nice touch.


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## SevenSixTwo (18 Mar 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> So that makes it OK for PLO types ie Hamas and Hezbollah etc to slit the throats of kids?
> 
> And I'm the ignorant one.
> 
> ...




Did I say it was okay?


Why don't you do look at some of my posts if you want to know more? Or are you just telling me that your the type of person who doesn't do research?  

Because it certainly looks that way.


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## OldSolduer (18 Mar 2011)

As soon as you post some bona fides I might take you seriously. Have a nice day.

And who do you think you are?


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## SevenSixTwo (19 Mar 2011)

SevenSixTwo said:
			
		

> "You attack the speaker rather than attacking the argument.
> 
> Ex 1) You're an idiot, so you must be wrong
> 
> ...



Looks, like this still holds true. Anyways, we've moved too far from the original post so that's the end of that.


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## Infanteer (19 Mar 2011)

"Babe...duh-duh, duh-duh...I Got you Babe"

...and this thread has run its course.


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