# Somalia scandal



## painswessex (15 Oct 2004)

I read on the AJAG site that they were going to put Mcpl? Matchee on trial for the incident. I wonder if they think he is well enough to stand trial.


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## Torlyn (15 Oct 2004)

Spelling aside, post where you are getting this info from, LMP/BC.??

T


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## painswessex (15 Oct 2004)

From the DND AJAG site. I dont think i can get it from my home computer so i will get it on monday and post it here. They list all the court marshal's on that site, as well as appeals.


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## painswessex (15 Oct 2004)

English

	ACCUSED	                        LOCATION
	Ex-MCpl Matchee	HMCS UNICORN, 405 - 24th St., E., Saskatoon, SK 

Charges	1. s. 130 NDA, s. 235(1) CCC, murder. 
                        2. s. 130 NDA, s. 269.1 CCC, torture.

An inquiry has been convened, pursuant to the National Defence Act section 202.12, to determine whether sufficient evidence can be adduced to put the accused person on trial.   

DECISION: On 21 Sep 04, the Court found sufficient evidence had been established to put the accused person on trial for these charges.


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## Torlyn (15 Oct 2004)

Hmm..  Still can't find it, and it's not in their calendar for at least the next 4 months... Could you please post the link?

T


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## Slim (15 Oct 2004)

I've spoken to quite a few people (ex-CAR friends of mine) who have run into him over time (some even at NDMC) who say that he's not as bad off as they made him out to be. Interesting that the service is going to try him after all.

Slim


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## painswessex (15 Oct 2004)

http://www.forces.gc.ca/cmj/calendarSep_e.asp


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## rw4th (15 Oct 2004)

If its the same Matchee, I'm surprised the press has not latched on to this yet.

On an antoher note: there's an HMCS Unicorn? Damn ... ???


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## painswessex (15 Oct 2004)

rw4th said:
			
		

> If its the same Matchee, I'm surprised the press has not latched on to this yet.
> 
> On an antoher note: there's an HMCS Unicorn? darn ... ???



Its the same guy, Media wouldnt know unless they read the site that i posted. HMCS Unicorn is a reserve unit.


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## Scott (15 Oct 2004)

'Bout frickin time.


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## painswessex (15 Oct 2004)

i agree


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## Scoobie Newbie (15 Oct 2004)

Its my understanding that periodically doctors would check to see if he regained the mental capacity which would determine if he was fit to stand trial.

You someone is going to spin this into the military punishing the mentally disabled regardless of the facts.


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## rw4th (16 Oct 2004)

> HMCS Unicorn is a reserve unit


Damn ... is their an HMCS Teddy Bear or an HMCS Rainbow too?  ;D


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## Acorn (16 Oct 2004)

There was an HMCS RAINBOW, I think. UNICORN was also a U-Class sub of the RN during WWII. Ships of the Commonwealth have had a variety of interesting names. Canadian destroyers were usually named for rivers (OTTAWA, GATINEAU, RESTIGOUCHE) or native tribes (ATHABASKAN, HURON). Escort ships in WWII were named for towns - the ships were the same as British FLOWER class though (I don't think there was an HMS BUTTERCUP, but some of the others were entertaining). 

My personal favorite ship name is that of an aircraft carrier the RCN crewed in WWII: HMS PUNCHER.

Acorn


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## Scoobie Newbie (16 Oct 2004)

From Somalia to Unicorns.  Go figure.


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## rw4th (16 Oct 2004)

> From Somalia to Unicorns.   Go figure.


It's in the published information; the court martialed is to be held at the HMCS Unicorn in Saskatoon.

Well, that, and I have been partaking of alcohol laced libations for past few hours.


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## pbi (16 Oct 2004)

While I can't really comment on a case that is before a Court Martial, I just hope that this is not a signal for enemies of the Forces, Scott Taylor, Col Drapeau, various other "military experts" etc to crawl out of the woodwork and drag the Army back to the low spot it was in public estimation ten years ago. Alot of good soldiers, at all rank levels, have gotten on with their jobs and repaired our reputation to a great extent-I don't want to see this all trashed. Cheers.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (16 Oct 2004)

Come on, PBI, You know they are licking thier lips in anticipation. New publicity and no work required for it.


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## Scoobie Newbie (16 Oct 2004)

They'll probably ask that clown who put down the subs for his input.  Bald guy with glasses.


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## pbi (16 Oct 2004)

CFL said:
			
		

> They'll probably ask that clown who put down the subs for his input. Bald guy with glasses.



That's exactly what I'm afraid of. Cheers.


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## Cloud Cover (16 Oct 2004)

CFL said:
			
		

> They'll probably ask that clown who put down the subs for his input.   Bald guy with glasses.



Well, he can slam the forces all he wants, that's his right, we all know what he stands for and DND had better be preapred for it this time. But, if he starts slagging individuals by name, he better be prepared to prove his statements, or he is defintely going to get a statement of claim shoved down his throat. Too many good people have dedicated the better part of their careers turning the forces around from the whole sad story, and I sincerely hope that they do not sit back and take it on the chin this time. [you know who I am talking about.]

Cheers ...


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## hugh19 (16 Oct 2004)

Just to be nitpicky HMCS Rainbow was a west coast submarine in the 60's and 70's


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## Scoobie Newbie (16 Oct 2004)

Kyle Brown this, Kyle Brown that.  CAR=bunch of thugs etc etc etc.


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## Hoplite (16 Oct 2004)

I don't imagine that this is going to bring an outcry from the public.  In fact this topic has already hit the papers on a number of occasions this year. 

The proceedings (which have to happen every two years) was to determine whether they could go ahead with charges.  They found that there was sufficient evidence to go forward with the trial, which doesn't address the relevant question anyways...That being if the accused has the mental capacity to face the charge.

This article may clarify further....

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2004/09/21/638202-cp.html

Hopefully the law will be changed so that we can put his behind us once and for all.


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## Scoobie Newbie (16 Oct 2004)

Well that article says that the proceedings of a court martial aren't going to happen.  Just that there is enough evidence to prosecute him if he was found mentally fit, which doctors have said will never happen.


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## Scoobie Newbie (16 Oct 2004)

I can't find were you got this from:  DECISION: On 21 Sep 04, the Court found sufficient evidence had been established to put the accused person on trial for these charges.


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## painswessex (16 Oct 2004)

I got that info from the same place i got the court martial info from. It is under the results tab.


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## Storm (19 Oct 2004)

sledge said:
			
		

> Just to be nitpicky HMCS Rainbow was a west coast submarine *in the 60's and 70's*



Explains everything


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## bossi (20 Oct 2004)

Acorn said:
			
		

> There was an HMCS RAINBOW, I think.



I'm surprised one of our swabbies didn't pick up on this ...
Ironically (very ironically, in the aftermath of our purchasing the used Upholder class subs ...)

HMCS Rainbow and Niobe were the first two ships in the RCN
http://www.readyayeready.com/timeline/1910s/rainbow.htm
(and apparently during WWI was the only ship patrolling the ENTIRE West Coast ... !)

Funny how history repeats itself, eh ... ?

As for the real topic of this thread, I saw coverage of the Matchee situation on Canadian TV
(and, yes - the bias of the reporting was the insinuation that he wasn't fit for trial - however, that's for the legal system to decide, barrack room lawyers excluded).


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## KevinB (20 Oct 2004)

Oh damn - when I read the tile I thought we had done something in Samoa  ???


Somalia - I see now  ;D


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## armyrules (25 Oct 2004)

I read the book "Scapegoat" by Peter Worthington and Kyle Brown I thought it was a great book and I wonder if Matchee wil be well enough to stand trial?


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## KevinB (25 Oct 2004)

Scapegoat should have been called "WHINER"

Some much for taking responsibility for ones actions...


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## dutchie (25 Oct 2004)

I can't decide if I want this trial to go forward so that Matchee can be held accountable, or if I would prefer to let sleeping dogs lie, and not open up something that created such a negative image of the CF and it's soldiers.


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## gun plumber (25 Oct 2004)

Agreed.This should have been done quitely and swiftly in order not to bring negitive press to a system that has worked non-stop to shed the negitive views that were placed apon it.I'm not talking about doing it in the dark,that would only get all the press talking about cover-ups etc,but have it handled the same way that it is when we do something good........small artical on page 123 bottom right


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## Cloud Cover (25 Oct 2004)

gun plumber said:
			
		

> This should have been done quietly and swiftly in order not to bring negitive press to a system that has worked non-stop to shed the negitive views that were placed apon it.I'm not talking about doing it in the dark,that would only get all the press talking about cover-ups etc,but have it handled the same way that it is when we do something good........small artical on page 123 bottom right



Not going to happen, as stated earlier there is too much money to be made and political capital to be gained by exploiting this situation, unless of  course Matchee's lawyer is successful in having the trial conducted_ in camera_, a most unlikely event indeed.  Perhaps, if Matchee pleads guilty, there might not be as much sensationalism attached to the trial, but the real danger in this lies with academics involved in the study of racism in armed conflict continuing to use the CAR as a text book example to promote their own agendas. Don't misunderstand me, this is a laudable topic worthy of serious academic study, however the use of such research to further other less well intentioned agenda's is the problem.


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## buckahed (26 Oct 2004)

Thanks for the welcome to the board, Whiskey 601. Slightly off topic, are the Rules of Engagment for Somalia or the UN missions available? There was a lot of talk about them, but I have never actually seen them.


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## Acorn (26 Oct 2004)

You won't see much publically about ROE, past or present, as it is an OPSEC issue.

Acorn


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## pbi (27 Oct 2004)

buckahed said:
			
		

> Thanks for the welcome to the board, Whiskey 601. Slightly off topic, are the Rules of Engagment for Somalia or the UN missions available? There was a lot of talk about them, but I have never actually seen them.



ROEs, as robust as they may be, don't extend to torture and murder, nor are restrictive ROEs legitmate excuses for same. Cheers.


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## KevinB (27 Oct 2004)

IIRC the Somalia ROE's were published during the inquiry.

 In a nutshell they could use Deadly Force to accomplish the mission - but like PBI said - ROE's NEVER, not ever, allow for torture or murder of a prisoner.


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## Morpheus32 (27 Oct 2004)

KevinB said:
			
		

> IIRC the Somalia ROE's were published during the inquiry.
> 
> In a nutshell they could use Deadly Force to accomplish the mission - but like PBI said - ROE's NEVER, not ever, allow for torture or murder of a prisoner.



Kevin is correct on all counts.  The ROE's were rather robust in comparison to some operations in the past to that point, but torture and murder are never ever allowed.  They are governed under the rules of armed conflict, Geneva Convention, and Military Regulations.  

Jeff


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## Gunner (28 Oct 2004)

> You won't see much publically about ROE, past or present, as it is an OPSEC issue.



Actually, ROE are classiifed information.  Their application in an operational theatre would be considered OPSEC.

Sorry, OPSEC issues are my pet peeve.


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## armyrules (28 Oct 2004)

I agree with Caesar I think we should let it be its over and it should stay over


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## Acorn (28 Oct 2004)

Sorry Gunner, my sloppy use of terminology. I should know better.

Acorn


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## the 48th regulator (28 Oct 2004)

Let Sleeping dogs lie?

Nope, I think his trial should be broadcast so the world can see the b*****d that brought death to someone and shame to a Regiment, a force, and a Nation.  I want to see him get his due process and be punished for his actions.


He escaped scott free and disappeared like a ghost, which allowed for everyone to be a scape goat.  Push the goat aside and get the jackal.

tess


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## armyrules (28 Oct 2004)

Did u read the book "Sacpegoat" 48th regulator if u did what did u think of it?


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## Acorn (28 Oct 2004)

Kyle Brown was clearly guilty as charged, and his five-year sentence was probably light considering he was an accomplice to murder and torture.

_Scapegoat _ implies that he was an innocent sacrificed to protect the senior officers. I'd like to point out that his OC ended up slammed, and his CO certainly isn't in the news as an Army high-flyer anymore. Even the comd of the mission, Col Labbe, hasn't been seen on the BGen list. Plus a few other careers were consigned to the scrap heap, and Brown may have done the most time, but he wasn't the only one to spend time in digger. All of which owe more to the inquiry than to some book.

Peter Worthington seems to have forgotten his time as a soldier, and allows his son-in-law(?), Scott Taylor, to influence his journalisting objectivity (now there's an oxymoron.) His recent "postcards from Kabul" demonstrate that.

Acorn


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## armyrules (28 Oct 2004)

You do bring up a great point Acorn I guess i never thought of it that way thank-you for that sheading of light  what is your take on the whole case?  

                                                                               Cheers


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## pbi (29 Oct 2004)

> Peter Worthington seems to have forgotten his time as a soldier, and allows his son-in-law(?), Scott Taylor, to influence his journalisting objectivity (now there's an oxymoron.) His recent "postcards from Kabul" demonstrate that.



Roger that!  Cheers.


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## dutchie (29 Oct 2004)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Let Sleeping dogs lie?
> Nope, I think his trial should be broadcast so the world can see the b*****d that brought death to someone and shame to a Regiment, a force, and a Nation.   I want to see him get his due process and be punished for his actions.
> He escaped scott free and disappeared like a ghost, which allowed for everyone to be a scape goat.   Push the goat aside and get the jackal.



If I thought that the Canadian media would report on this trial in a fair, objective, and even-handed manner, I would be all for it. Unfortunately, the media is partially to blame for the huge amount of the disinformation and the negative perceptions that Canadians have (or had) of the Forces. The other guilty party in this is the Liberal governemt at the time, and the last time I checked they are still in power. The Fed Gov (read: Cretin and Co.) held our arms while the media pummeled us. They sacrificed a Regiment and the pride of Canadian soldiers to win political points. 

I see no reason to believe the CBC will all of a sudden spin Somalia into anything other than a condemnation of the Forces as a whole, rather than a condemnation of a few individuals. Don't let the recent positive press fool you (post-9/11) - the CBC likes nothing better than to expose this institution as a cesspool of incompetance, brutality and perversion.

I want to see that 'Jackal' swing as much as the next guy, but I don't want to see the kind of bullsh*t on the CBC that we saw 10 years ago because of it.


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## oneup (29 Oct 2004)

Guilt for the unfortunate civilian casualties in Somalia should not be carried by one or two people.

Under different circumstances, for example Afghanistan today,  Matchee would not behave the same way,  because the army has improved a lot.  

At the time of the deployment to Somalia,  the Canadian army was soft from 40 years of peace.  The CAR soldiers did their best with what they had,  but it didn't help matters that the CO didn't understand the type of conflict he was in.  Proof of this is in his camp layout.  He was more concerned with having a firm place to sleep than being tactical,  and he ordered the troops to 'shoot to wound' and 'rough up' civilians caught entering the wire.

Matchee got drunk and went overboard,  in the belief that he had the CO's backing,  which it would seem he did,  if you refer to the order to rough up or wound to deter civilian infiltrators.

In this light,  Matchee cannot be held solely responsible.  His actions were symptomatic of larger problems in the army.  The Somalia Commission of Inquiry explained this fully,  but too few people have read it.


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## the 48th regulator (29 Oct 2004)

agreed,   very good points by all.

But in the end, I still believe the worm should hang, as he couldn't even get that right.

I did read scapegoat, was he guilty? Of course, but the book did raise some good points, one was the use of Mephaquine which was a taboo subject to talk about in those days, considering it could haved caused the govenment yet another embarassment.

So ya, I thought it was good.

tess


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## Bartok5 (29 Oct 2004)

It is Mefloquine, and it has varying effects on individuals dependant upon physiology.  There are exceedingly few cases where the drug results in irrational behaviour.  Indeed, there were none (of 850 troop) that I know of on my last operational tour.  

Prescribed Meflo use is zero excuse for psychotic behaviour.  If it upsets your stomach, then you get the daily dose of an alternate drug instead.  

Mefloquine psychosis is a myth.  Anyone hanging their "pension hat" on that particular excuse is evidently grasping at rather thin straws...


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## the 48th regulator (29 Oct 2004)

i cut and pasted from the web medical dictionary as used by google sorry if i chose the wrong dialect, I aint much for that fancy book reading.   As for the myth, hmm why did many a nation stop issuing that to their troops, Britain being one.

I will pass on your info to them. BTW pretty harsh words regarding anyone "hanging their pension hat" gone are   the days of a stiff upper lip mate.

cheers

tess


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## pbi (30 Oct 2004)

If I hear this Mefloquine myth one more time.......

To the best of my knowledge,(and I stand to be corrected) the current clinical evidence concerning Mefloquine(as opposed to the "Scott Taylor" evidence) is that about one in 2000 users may develop psychological side effects, and of these very, very few will approach psychotic behaviour. A few people may have sleep disorders or irritability, but the tripe about Mefloquine making people "go crazy" is just that: tripe.

I took Mefloquine for seven months in Africa, along with a number of other Canadians. I had occasional upset stomach and that was it. Nobody else that I know had any issues. 

To blame disgusting, pre-meditated, calculated criminal behaviour by soldiers on their Mefloquine intake is the cheapest kind of "out". We mock this kind of "blame/entitlement" or "victim" culture in civil society, yet we thoughtlessly parrot this rubbish because we have difficulty coming to grips with the criminal nature of what was done by Canadian soldiers.

Abnormal behaviour by soldiers on operations can, IMHO, be far more likely attributed to:

-pre-existing psychological problems or criminal tendencies, especially in the early 90s when we were paying little or no real attention to this issue;

-the many, many stresses and fears that an operation such as Somalia creates in a soldier's mind and on his body;

-lack of proper discipline; and

-a group subculture that at least tolerates, if not encourages criminal behaviour.

I am in agreement that the command climate can contribute to these crimes: I have seen similar examples elsewhere in which a commander created an environment in which subordinates felt empowered to do wrong and dangerous things, with equally tragic results.

Disbanding the Airborne Regiment was stupid and utterly pointless. Punishing war criminals in the most exemplary manner possible is not.

Cheers.


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## the 48th regulator (30 Oct 2004)

My point about the drug is if down the line people suffer other effects that we can attribute to said drug the they should be compensated.

I think from the theme of what I said before and my feelings about the people involved that in no way am I blaming the drug for their actions.

Somehow a lot of medical professionals crop up and call things "myth" "lies to get compensation"

Well this really burns me.   You know, recently I have been told   exactly that by a medical Doctor retired, yet employed by contract, from the military;

_"Oh, your injuries were only minor, an your V.A file means absolutely nothing to me"_

Trust me 50 years from now you too will have realised our time in did some damage to us, and the general attitude is suck it up and shut up whiners are not allowed. Unfortunately I have to learn this a little earlier in my life.


Any way sorry to steer away from the topic at hand.

I still think we should see him pay for his actions.

tess


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## pbi (30 Oct 2004)

48th regulator: You misunderstand me, I think.

Nobody (least of all me...) is questioning that Canadian soldiers can become injured on operations, or can develop long-term health problems. For example, I am close to being an H3 because of years of exposure to loud noises, aggravated by the fact that when I joined the Reserve we almost never wore hearing protection.

What I am questioning is "medical conspiracy theories" which stir up all sorts of fear and alarm, but seem to run along on the power of isolated cases or rumour fed by shoddy journalism. If there is some conclusive proof that Mefloquine causes significant psychological effects, or long term downstream effects, then let's have it. Yet, instead, as Mark C and I have both tried to point out, there does not seem to be evidence vailable. Has there been single court case in this country, or any other, in which Mefloquine has been the subject of a compensation award?

As for "medical professionals" defending the medication: well...who else would we turn to for this evidence? We expect people to turn to us as military professionals, on military issues, right?

Finally, I disagree completely that our current culture is "suck it up and shut up" Ten years ago--maybe.Now--no .We have had a long, hard road since then and IMHO have changed 100% in how we deal with the injured and disabled. . I am familiar with several compensation cases in our Bde for Res soldiers who have developed disabilities while on active duty and the system is definitely there to help. In fact, if anything, we may be in danger of drifting too far the other way. Cheers.


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## the 48th regulator (30 Oct 2004)

Point taken PBI

I just get fired up when myth is used, though, there are no cases now does not give us a reason to write it off.   I remember a time when people said, including myself, that PTSD was a way for people to get an easy pension out of VA.   As for the current attitude, trust me, all the troubles I have had has happened in the last decade, in fact very recently, so I am baseing my opinion on hard facts.   The attitude really has not changed much, but we are moving forward, all be it slowly.

anyhoo we will save all that for another thread.   Thanks again for the fired up back and forth! As I said, I am glad to have signed up for this board

tess


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## Bartok5 (30 Oct 2004)

Well, I can only echo what PBI has quite eloquently said.  

Heck - I'm an H4, and I didn't get that way from my wife screaming at me!  Try countless live-fire exercises where I had to remove the ear-plugs so that I could actually perform my job.  But try and prove cumulative injuries to the pension board without a climactic "episode" in your hip pocket.  Sorry - but it ain't gonna happen.

 I turn 40 in 2 months.  My right hip and rotator cuff are screwed from a very bad (3 weeks on crutches) para landing in high winds.   My left knee "clicks" when I walk and my lower back constantly aches from simply doing the "infantry thing" for 23 years.  Neither of the latter are recorded on my med docs because there was no "incident".  Cumulative injuries are not quantified nor necessarily recognized by the medical system (and more importantly, by the pension board).  They simply don't "get it".  The people who decide whether or not you receive a pension and determine the amound don't have a frigging clue.  And that is where the bureaucratic fight ensues....

Beware if you make the conscious decision to burn out your body wearing the Canadian Flag.  The system does not care, and will fight you for compensation every inch of the way. Play the game and you are liable to end up broken, pissed-off, entirely upappreciated, and forgotten.  Such is life.....


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## Infanteer (30 Oct 2004)

> Beware if you make the conscious decision to burn out your body wearing the Canadian Flag.   The system does not care, and will fight you for compensation every inch of the way. Play the game and you are liable to end up broken, pissed-off, entirely upappreciated, and forgotten.   Such is life.....



Is anyone else starting to get concerned with what seems to be a deep-seated propensity of the bureaucracy to assume that any claim by a soldier is automatically an exaggeration, a lie, or an outright fraud?   I've seen this attitude in investigations, injury claims, dealing with kit, etc, etc.   

For some reason, culpibility always seems to be a part of dealing with paperwork and (especially) money.   I still remember the beady-eyed little Finance Officer (a true Rear-Ech warrior if I ever seen one) who spent a good amount of time in posturing with various threats on what would happen if we tried to fuck around with some sort of financial claim she was yapping about - she just automatically assumed that we were ready to rob the bread truck if given the oppurtunity.   I found it offensive to me professionally (did I say that!) that I worked my ass off for months only to have this wiener come down and warn me about where my criminal tendencies may take me.

Is this a bureaucratic trend that tends to become a norm once decision making is removed from the units and centralized?


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## Scoobie Newbie (30 Oct 2004)

I think if the finance types were more forthcoming about what we are entitled too we won't take advantage of the system when we are given the chance.


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## bossi (31 Oct 2004)

Mark C said:
			
		

> Beware if you make the conscious decision to burn out your body wearing the Canadian Flag.   The system does not care, and will fight you for compensation every inch of the way. *Play the game and you are liable to end up broken, pissed-off, entirely unappreciated, and forgotten.*   Such is life.....



Ditto (i.e. "... thanks for volunteering and going to Afghanistan, sorry it took two surgeries to repair your injuries, but we decided to hire a 2Lt instead of you, tough luck that we let your contract lapse so that you lost your dental and medical benefits, what do you mean you're not leaping at the chance to go on Roto 3 while other fat-arsed frauds stay home and shaft you - and by the way, you might as well wipe your arse with your ATHENA PER ..")


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## bubba (31 Oct 2004)

dva sucks,from my own experiance's,there not there for the members.took me three years of fighting to get a pension.when a went before the board i was made to feel like dirt,i near went ballistic,there poison.that k card is a joke,i got to get a new brace,instead of just gettiong a referal from my doctor,and getting it made.i had to get reasesed,bya speaciolist,now im waiting for permission from dva to get it.i know this is off topic but wtf


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## Long in the tooth (31 Oct 2004)

Acorn - actually, Scott Taylor is no relation of Peter Worthington whose son in law is actually David Frum, former speech writer for George Bush.  I do agree that Worthington's perspective in 'Scapegoat' is less than objective, but then few journalists pretend to be.


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## Gunner (31 Oct 2004)

David Frum is married to Danielle Crittenden.



> Mr. Frum is the son of Barbara Frum, the late CBC host, and Toronto developer Murray Frum.
> He is married to Danielle Crittenden and has two children, aged seven and nine. Source: National Post, January 26, 2001.



Her website doesn't mention anything about Peter Worthington.  She's a looker!

http://www.daniellecrittenden.com/


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## jfladeroute (31 Oct 2004)

Gunner said:
			
		

> David Frum is married to Danielle Crittenden.
> Her website doesn't mention anything about Peter Worthington.  She's a looker!
> http://www.daniellecrittenden.com/



I believe that's her pen name. She is Worthington's daughter, as Frum mentions at http://www.nationalreview.com/frum/diary020804.asp.

There was a slight media kerfuffle a while back when personal email from Crittenden to family and friends identified her husband as the author of the "Axis of Evil" speech. http://slate.msn.com/id/2061695/


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## excoelis (31 Oct 2004)

Jesus wept.............where do I begin???

Let me start by saying I was in Somalia.   Mefloquine?   There was some talk about us taking too high a dose.   Personally I didn't have a problem or see any real problems.   I've taken it since with no reservations.   The alternative is Malaria.   I had two friends from that tour develop malaria after the tour due to their lack of vigilance - and it nearly KILLED THEM!!!

The Airborne was a place that some of the best soldiers in the army fought to get to.   For some reason it also attracted, or was used as a dumping ground for, some of the worst reprobates and degenerates in the army.   Unfortunately, the asocial dynamic in some parts of the unit was perceived as normal martial aggression, or it was ignored by weak leadership.   I remember as a young trooper getting up to mischief - I'm not claiming to be an angel.   I learned pretty quickly that my actions affected more than just me.   So I sorted myself out and learned in short order to GROW THE FUCK UP.   I did not however, have the power or influence to sort out the problem on a larger scale.   Those that did SHIT THE BED.   I'm not saying it was a bad unit with bad leadership.   I'm saying I think it was a great unit with a dose of bad soldiers and weak leaders.   I saw some scumbags get their walking papers before Col K came to clean house, but the major clean up came too late, the damage had been done.

Pensions?   Hmmmm.......

How many people do you know that are collecting questionable pensions?   Like the Sergeant who was on 6B with me and was collecting back, knee, and shoulder pensions but was still physically capable of finishing the course successfully.   He's collecting near a 1000 bucks a month on top of his normal pay.   Didn't seem to have a rather illustrious or challenging career in my opinion.   But then who am I to judge?   I guess my perception is such that the the scrutiny of claims has resulted from the plethora of soldiers bellying up to the trough - legitimate or not.   But that is just my WAG (Wild Ass Guess).

I think I have said this here before - In   my opinion the green machine can only work efficiently if it uses soldiers up and spits them out.   I think we just need to finesse the why, how, and where of the spitting process.    In the meantime the soldiers should resign themselves to the fact that they understood, or damn well should have, the implications of military service.   So don't expect to bask in the limelight of our noble vocation and then have a tantrum when you feel personally slighted.   A lot of the pride we have, and respect we receive, comes as a result of the very nature of its inherent hardships.


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## Infanteer (31 Oct 2004)

> I think I have said this here before - In  my opinion the green machine can only work efficiently if it uses soldiers up and spits them out.  I think we just need to finesse the why, how, and where of the spitting process.   In the meantime the soldiers should resign themselves to the fact that they understood, or damn well should have, the implications of military service.  So don't expect to bask in the limelight of our noble vocation and then have a tantrum when you feel personally slighted.  A lot of the pride we have, and respect we receive, comes as a result of the very nature of its inherent hardships.



Good point excoelis.  I remember getting into an argument with another troop over training intensity.  He was stating that having a jump capability was no good, because when he was with 3 VP, he couldn't believe all the ex-airborne types with injury claims.  I told him that the army's prime focus is to produce units with fighting power, and that their is a certain amount of risk associated in doing this - to your equipment and to your soldiers.  This focus should not be degraded in the effort to ensure all soldiers can play a decent squash game after 20 years of service.

I guess that under the dictum "train as you fight", unlimited liability applies to training. (ie: Soldier jump out of that plane at a low altitude with a lot of weight on your back....)


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## Acorn (31 Oct 2004)

My mistake on Worthington, I knew he was related to someone that annoys me (actually two: both Barbara and David Frum can get up my nose on occasion).
-----------------------------
I think the point above that the finance (RMS) types should tell us more about our entitlements ignores one thing: the huge number of individual differences and possibilities. You are your own clerk, often as not. As an example, I have been a beneficiary of LTA for most of my career, either by being single with my parents as NOK, or being posted away from my wife. As a result I usually know more about LTA and how it works than the average RMS clerk, and I'd never let one tell me what I am or am not entitled to without a clear explanation.

Acorn


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## bubba (31 Oct 2004)

nice post excoelis,i agree with most of what you said,the green machine is a hard ticket.when we joined were't we told that if they broke us they would fix us.they just can't turn you loose,but that's what they try to do,it's the only govornment employer who tries to do it in mass.how many guys ya hear say,they lost my med docs.when i got out nobody told me about dva,clerks just asked where    i want my paperwork sent.i'm not trying to be a arsehole,but the troops should know there is help out there if there hurt.no dought there's guys that are scamin the system.the airborne in my opinion had some of the best,without a dought,had alot of buddies there.remember unguard 90 ran inyo some of the assholes in sassy's parking lot,4 to 1 in there favor.thougt i was dead.some of the guys who never forgot where they came from got me out of there.


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## excoelis (31 Oct 2004)

Yeah, I realise I might have sounded a little harsh in my last post.  Don't get me wrong, I believe if you are broken in the loyal and unwaivering service of your country, then said country should be obligated to compensate, retrain, and maintain a certain standard of living for you and yours.

What drives me absolutely fucking nuts is the trend in this army towards the ME and the I.  I'm sick to death of people who think they can dictate their own terms of reference and think that operational tours, deployments, courses, and field time are an INCONVENIENCE!!!  These same individuals are probably the first ones at the bank on pay day with no remorse towards how they earned it - or not.  I am also sick of malingerers who make it harder for legitimately injured soldiers who are worn out and broken from hard years of driving the body.  My three sect comdrs from Roto 0 in Afghanistan are all broken to some extent.  Each one of them has been a paratrooper for 12 to 15 years with prior Infantry service before that.  Knee surgery for one, degenerative disc disease in the neck for another, and lastly crushed discs in the back requiring surgery.  Do you honestly think that I would entrust my life to those boys and vice versa without having some lasting loyalty?  I will say though that I draw a hard line when it comes to slowing down the machine because one of the gears blew a tooth.  I fully expect the same treatment when the inevitable happens to me.  I certainly don't plan on sitting around wallowing in my own self-pity.

So let's get down to the business of exposing and expelling those that harbour ulterior motive, poor work ethic, malingering tendency, pre-service injuries, and a self-centered attitude.  So that those that have earned the benefits, can receive them.


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## Cloud Cover (31 Oct 2004)

excoelis said:
			
		

> Jesus wept.............where do I begin???
> 
> But then who am I to judge?   I guess my perception is such that the the scrutiny of claims has resulted from the plethora of soldiers bellying up to the trough - legitimate or not.   But that is just my WAG (Wild *** Guess).
> 
> I think I have said this here before - In   my opinion the green machine can only work efficiently if it uses soldiers up and spits them out.   I think we just need to finesse the why, how, and where of the spitting process.    In the meantime the soldiers should resign themselves to the fact that they understood, or darn well should have, the implications of military service.   So don't expect to bask in the limelight of our noble vocation and then have a tantrum when you feel personally slighted.   A lot of the pride we have, and respect we receive, comes as a result of the very nature of its inherent hardships.



WTF excoelis? You're right, don't judge what you don't know. Are trying to tell us that it didn't even enter your mind when you joined up that if you were injured, the mob would take care of you based on your status as a person, and perhaps keep you on if you are still capable of making a useful contribution to the service? Because I know I did, and BTW that is exactly what happened. If and when the green machine   spits out the injured, they had better not be discarding them like some worthless and damaged piece of equipment. If it didn't, would you consider it a career of choice, given the many [safer] options available out there for young women and men [and those in between!!]?   

In many cases, a permanent injury leads to a long life of misery and discrimination on civvie street, despite ruminations to the contrary on this site. If a serving member takes an injury, they should be dealt with fairly, with honour and respect by everybody, especially their squad or department mates. If they are malingering, that's a different story, and I'd agree with you then. Perhaps [I hope] that's what you mean by "finesse." 

Cheers...


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## Cloud Cover (31 Oct 2004)

excoelis said:
			
		

> Yeah, I realise I might have sounded a little harsh in my last post.   Don't get me wrong, I believe if you are broken in the loyal and unwaivering service of your country, then said country should be obligated to compensate, retrain, and maintain a certain standard of living for you and yours.



excoelis: My apologies, you posted while i was typing. :-[


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## pbi (1 Nov 2004)

Ex coelis: Great points.

Your comments on the problems in the CAR echo my own external observations over the years, but as a non-member of that unit, I was extremely reluctant to post them here in too much detail, because it remains such a sensitive issue for so many people. Suffice it to say, you have identified the core of the problem. This problem was well known for years (I first heard about it as Assistant Adjutant of 1 PPCLI when the CO of the day announced at an O Gp that the PPCLI battalions were being asked to stop sending their "problem children" to 3 Cdo.) MGen (Retd) Holmes (an officer I have the highest respect for...) mentioned it during his testimony at the Somalia Inquiry. I a;lso had a CSM who came to me directly from the Cdo, who filled me in on some of the problems. As you have also correctly identified, there were some excellent soldiers in 3 Cdo and they did not deserve to be tarnished with the same brush as the sickies and criminals. IIRC,Colonel Kenward was well into the "reform" process (as only he could be...) when the axe fell, and thus the only lasting image in the public mind was that the whole CAR were criminals.

On the pension issue, I am not sure that our anger is properly directed at the military chain of command: most people I have ever encountered who were in a position to do so, normally have done all they can to give a soldier the benefit of the doubt and not really interested in "doing" a soldier out of a pension. IMHO the actual problem arises in the civil bureaucracy, outside DND, where the real decisions are made. However, the penetration of the "blame/entitlement" or "victim" mentality into the military has led to some terrible fraud attempts being perpetrated: I know of at least one in our Bde which was, thankfully, brought to an honest conclusion despite the best efforts of the individual to defraud the system in a very cynical way. Unfortunately, much as with our PTSD situation, a few of these cases screw it for those who have legitimate problems.

Cheers.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (1 Nov 2004)

despite the best efforts of the individual to defraud the system in a very cynical way. Unfortunately, much as with our PTSD situation, a few of these cases screw it for those who have legitimate problems

Well for what its worth, the military isn't the only place that happens. Some of our "accommodations" would blow your socks off......


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## Long in the tooth (8 Nov 2004)

_How many people do you know that are collecting questionable pensions?   Like the Sergeant who was on 6B with me and was collecting back, knee, and shoulder pensions but was still physically capable of finishing the course successfully.   He's collecting near a 1000 bucks a month on top of his normal pay.   Didn't seem to have a rather illustrious or challenging career in my opinion. _ 

Incredible!   How could this soldier be deployable when he's obviously used up seven or eight lives?   In dollar figures my injury was much less severe, and yet I had to leave the Infantry as even a further minor accident could be severely damaging.

I appreciate how the combat arms can grind down a body; unfortunately the DVA need 'atriattributablity' to determine what amount the military played in an injury.   I was lucky when I was hurt as it was clearly 5/5 attributable to the military, and when they opened me up all previous wear and tear was documented.   However I get far less than $1000 per month and definatdefinitelyrecommend doing what happened to me.


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## Scoobie Newbie (10 Nov 2004)

With regards to being discharged I would add the following.
I worked with a guy who had an injury that prevented him from doing organized PT yet he could still past the universality of service.  Had he being a poste and got injured he would have been fine as they don't do pt (normally) and would have sailed under the radar.  Hell he was more fit (cardio wise) then a lot of guys in BN and more so then most in the airforce which was just up the road.
I also worked with a WO who was on perm cat. but seems to have benn protected as he no longer has any restricitions and was put on his 7's (promotional crse).  So in some cases its who you know.


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## Wookilar (15 Sep 2008)

Was just on CBC Newsworld that the charges against Matchee have been dropped by the CF. Looking for "print" comfirmation.

Wook


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## Haggis (15 Sep 2008)

Found it here.


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## MCpl. Burwell (15 Sep 2008)

Wookilar said:
			
		

> Was just on CBC Newsworld that the charges against Matchee have been dropped by the CF. Looking for "print" comfirmation.


It is also on CTV.

Master Cpl. Clayton Matchee had been charged with the crimes after Shidane Abukar Arone was killed in March 1993 while Canadian troops were stationed in Somalia.

"The decision to withdraw the charges in this case was based on public interest considerations," Lt.-Col. Bruce MacGregor, deputy director of military prosecutions, said in a release.

"These included the fact that Mr. Matchee has a permanent brain injury and will never be fit to stand trial."

MacGregor added that Matchee, who has had extended stays in hospital since the incident, "does not a pose a significant threat to the community."

In April 1994, a court martial ruled that Matchee was not fit to stand trial on the charges because of a mental disorder.

Matchee was transferred to a hospital in North Battleford, Sask. not long after the decision.

Arone's death on March 16, 1993, sent shockwaves through the Canadian military and underscored accusations of ingrained violence and racism among Canadian soldiers.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Up The John's!


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## Wookilar (15 Sep 2008)

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/saskatchewan/story/2008/09/15/matchee-charges.html

Seems to follow a recent decision by the Sasketchewan Review Board in Feb. Interesting to note that the pic used in the article is not the one the CBC (or any other msm outlet) usually uses with Clayton Matchee's name attached to it......

A chapter finally closed? I hope that this does not get dragged into the election...

Wook


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## riggermade (15 Sep 2008)

excoelis said:
			
		

> Yeah, I realise I might have sounded a little harsh in my last post.  Don't get me wrong, I believe if you are broken in the loyal and unwaivering service of your country, then said country should be obligated to compensate, retrain, and maintain a certain standard of living for you and yours.
> 
> What drives me absolutely fucking nuts is the trend in this army towards the ME and the I.  I'm sick to death of people who think they can dictate their own terms of reference and think that operational tours, deployments, courses, and field time are an INCONVENIENCE!!!  These same individuals are probably the first ones at the bank on pay day with no remorse towards how they earned it - or not.  I am also sick of malingerers who make it harder for legitimately injured soldiers who are worn out and broken from hard years of driving the body.  My three sect comdrs from Roto 0 in Afghanistan are all broken to some extent.  Each one of them has been a paratrooper for 12 to 15 years with prior Infantry service before that.  Knee surgery for one, degenerative disc disease in the neck for another, and lastly crushed discs in the back requiring surgery.  Do you honestly think that I would entrust my life to those boys and vice versa without having some lasting loyalty?  I will say though that I draw a hard line when it comes to slowing down the machine because one of the gears blew a tooth.  I fully expect the same treatment when the inevitable happens to me.  I certainly don't plan on sitting around wallowing in my own self-pity.
> 
> So let's get down to the business of exposing and expelling those that harbour ulterior motive, poor work ethic, malingering tendency, pre-service injuries, and a self-centered attitude.  So that those that have earned the benefits, can receive them.



I agree with what you have to say...I wore a maroon beret for 22 of 25 years and mback and arthritis is apperently all from aging...I have days I can barely walk but was turned down by VA

What really burns my a$$ is these characters collecting pensions for these seious problems but are fit enough to go to Afghanistan

I think the system has to be revamped


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## The Bread Guy (15 Sep 2008)

The CF's official word - backgrounder below news release....

*Charges against Ex-Master-Corporal Cayton Matchee withdrawn*
CF news release NR-08.070, 15 Sept 08
News release link

Captain (Navy) Holly MacDougall, the Canadian Forces Director of Military Prosecutions (DMP), has withdrawn the charges against former Master-Corporal Clayton Matchee. Ex-MCpl Matchee was charged under section 130 of the National Defence Act with Torture, contrary to section 269.1 of the Criminal Code of Canada, and Murder, contrary to section 235(1) of the Criminal Code of Canada. The charges arose as a result of the death of Shidane Abukar Arone, a Somalian teenager, on 16 March 1993, during the deployment of Canadian troops in Somalia.

The Director of Military Prosecutions is a separate and independent authority for military prosecutions who exercises prosecutorial discretion within the military justice system, free of influences, and based on legal principles and criteria.

While the charges have been outstanding against Ex-MCpl Matchee over the past 15 years, three parallel tracks were ongoing to deal with him. Firstly, the Saskatchewan Review Board held hearings at least once every 12 months to reassess Ex-MCpl Matchee’s fitness to stand trial. Secondly, a Standing Court Martial was convened every two years to determine whether sufficient admissible evidence continued to exist to prosecute Ex-MCpl Matchee. Lastly, DMP, as part of the post-charge screening process, had the continuous requirement to assess whether the evidence continued to be sufficient to justify the continuation of charges and whether the public interest required the prosecution to be continued.

“The decision to withdraw the charges in this case was based on public interest considerations. These included the fact that Mr. Matchee has a permanent brain injury and will never be fit to stand trial, in addition to a recent determination that Mr. Matchee does not pose a significant threat to the community,” says Lieutenant-Colonel Bruce MacGregor, Deputy Director of Military Prosecutions. “On February 12, 2008, the Saskatchewan Review Board directed that Mr. Matchee be discharged from the Saskatchewan Hospital and ordered an assessment of what risk, if any, Mr. Matchee poses to the community. During his extended stays out of the hospital and since his discharge, no incidents constituting risk to the community have been reported and the reports on his reintegration within the community have been positive.” The withdrawal of the charges means that there will no longer be a requirement for the Saskatchewan Review Board nor the Standing Court Martial to conduct their respective reviews.

“Since the charges have been withdrawn, the laws that apply to Mr. Matchee are no different than those applicable to any other citizen suffering from a brain injury and requiring constant care and supervision,” adds Lt Col MacGregor. “Future personal or public safety concerns, if any, can be dealt with appropriately through applicable provincial legislation.” 



*Backgrounder
Ex-Master Corporal Clayton Matchee*
CF backgrounder BG–08.025, 15 Sept 08
Backgrounder link

Ex-MCpl Matchee was charged under section 130 of the National Defence Act (NDA) with second-degree murder and torture in connection with the 1993 death of Somali national Shidane Abukar Arone. On April 25, 1994, a General Court Martial found him unfit to stand trial as a result of a mental disorder.

The matter was then turned over to the Ontario Review Board, pursuant to section 202.25 of the National Defence Act. On May 25, 1994, the Ontario Review Board confirmed that Ex-MCpl Matchee was unfit to stand trial at his court martial and ordered that he be transferred to the province of Saskatchewan for the purpose of reintegration into society and for his recovery, treatment and continued custody. He was subsequently transferred to the Saskatchewan Hospital in North Battleford, Saskatchewan.

In the past 15 years, three parallel tracks were ongoing to deal with the matter while the charges were outstanding against Ex-MCpl Matchee. First, at least every 12 months, the Saskatchewan Review Board had to hold a hearing to reassess Ex-MCpl Matchee’s fitness to stand trial. Then, a Standing Court Martial had to be convened every two years to determine whether sufficient admissible evidence continued to exist to prosecute Ex-MCpl Matchee. Finally, DMP, as part of the post-charge process, had the continuous requirement to assess whether the evidence continued to be sufficient to justify the continuation of charges and whether the public interest required the prosecution to be continued.

Since 1994, the Saskatchewan Provincial Review Board has conducted regular reviews of the fitness of Ex-MCpl Matchee. The Saskatchewan Review Board has indicated that Mr. Matchee will never be fit to stand trial on the outstanding charges. In the past few years, the Review Board has gradually increased the length of Ex-Cpl Matchee’s visits to his family home and to his local community to the point where on February 12, 2008, Ex-MCpl Matchee was discharged from the hospital to live in the community. A detailed assessment was ordered in respect of what risk, if any, Ex-MCpl Matchee poses to the community, after his discharge from the hospital. The risk assessment provided to the Review Board in April 2008 indicated that Ex-MCpl Matchee “represents no greater threat to the public than any other person with a cognitive defect”. At a teleconference held by the Saskatchewan Review Board on September 8, 2008, it was indicated that during his extended stays out of the Saskatchewan Hospital and since his discharge in February of this year, no incidents constituting risk to the community have been reported.

At the last inquiry held on 24 September 2004 at a Standing Court Martial, the presiding judge ruled that the prosecution had adduced sufficient admissible evidence to put Ex-MCpl Matchee on trial. This decision is available on the Chief Military Judge web site at http://www.forces.gc.ca/cmj/inquiry/2004/2004cm014.i.pdf. The inquiry scheduled for 2006 was postponed as a result of joint applications presented by prosecution and defence counsel and was finally scheduled to commence on 16 September 2008.

Prior to this inquiry and based on the positive comments reported at the 8th of September teleconference, in accordance with her DMP Policy 003/00, Prosecutorial Discretion and Post-Charge Screening, the DMP has concluded that the public interest, including the interests of the CF, does not require that the prosecution against Ex-MCpl Matchee be continued.

With the withdrawal of charges by the DMP, Ex-MCpl Matchee is no different than any other citizen suffering from a brain injury and requiring constant care and supervision. Future personal or public safety concerns, if any, are more appropriately dealt with through applicable provincial legislation.

-30-


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## Viper (15 Sep 2008)

Just so everyone knows, the way this works is that as long as Matchee lives and the charges are outstanding; twice a year they bring this forward to a Standiong Court Martial and receive info as to his ability to stand trial.  I doubt that there will ever be more than that.  This has been happening twice a year ever since he was declared unfit to stand trial.


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## Redeye (15 Sep 2008)

Viper said:
			
		

> Just so everyone knows, the way this works is that as long as Matchee lives and the charges are outstanding; twice a year they bring this forward to a Standiong Court Martial and receive info as to his ability to stand trial.  I doubt that there will ever be more than that.  This has been happening twice a year ever since he was declared unfit to stand trial.



Viper, that's precisely why the charges have been withdrawn.  The powers that be have decided that Matchee will never be fit to stand trial, and the charges will never otherwise be disposed of, so they have been withdrawn completely.  This way there will no longer need to be the process with the Standing Court Martial.


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## Haggis (15 Sep 2008)

Viper said:
			
		

> Just so everyone knows, the way this works is that as long as Matchee lives and the charges are outstanding; twice a year they bring this forward to a Standiong Court Martial and receive info as to his ability to stand trial.  I doubt that there will ever be more than that.  This has been happening twice a year ever since he was declared unfit to stand trial.



In fact, the Standing Court Martial convened every two years to review this case, not twice a year.


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## Viper (15 Sep 2008)

Thanks Redeye,

I guess I should have followed the thread all the way to the end before posting, I didn't realize that the charges had finally been withdrawn.  It did seem to be a waste of time and resources because it's been clear for a while that he was never going to actually stand trial.

Re: Haggis's post, I disagree, if you check the Jag website you will see that twice a year his case has been brought forward, it is a reference I have used for the past several years teaching PLQ courses here in Esquimalt.


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## Haggis (15 Sep 2008)

Viper said:
			
		

> Re: Haggis's post, I disagree, if you check the Jag website you will see that twice a year his case has been brought forward, it is a reference I have used for the past several years teaching PLQ courses here in Esquimalt.



Disagree all you want.

Although the Chief Military Judge Courts Martial calendar only goes back one month, the Transcripts Page clearly shows the Standing Court Martial (SCM) transcripts are posted every two years.  The official CF backgrounder also states the SCM was convened every two years.


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## Armymedic (15 Sep 2008)

Regardless, its done. Now we, the collective group of us who had to live through this (personally or otherwise), can now put this issue to bed.

Its done....time to bury, and move on.


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## geo (15 Sep 2008)

Heh....
Wonder if anyone will ever bother to check up on Matchee ever again.
Fifteen years is a long time to be unfit for trial - but wonder if it is anywhere possible that, after 25 years, he would "come out of it".
If the charges are withdrawn, could they still be laid if, by some miracle, Matchee snaped out of it ???


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## The_Falcon (15 Sep 2008)

Just saw it reported on the National, CF is dropping all charges against Clayton Matchee, the reason report is the CF doesn't believe he will ever be mentally fit to stand trail after suffering brain damage in a botched suicide attempt.


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## Rodahn (16 Sep 2008)

In my opinion the military failed this member, here was a young lad who went face to face with the Native Canadians during Oka, and became somewhat of a celebrity. He was then promoted, prior to his being ready due to his notoriety from this incident. Then sent on a mission in which the unit was ill prepared. (Mortarman, please correct me if I'm wrong here, as I believe that you were involved at Oka).

Overall I think that the fault belongs with the CF, and the collective leadership at the time, due to the replacement of the CO just prior to a mission of such magnitude, and failure by higher to heed possible warning signs of distubing activities (hazing in) that was unacceptable.


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## Armymedic (16 Sep 2008)

may I redirect your attention to my previous link today:

http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/21465/post-758129.html#msg758129

and say that this topic should be buried....as 15 yrs was more than enough time to discuss this.

Those bad days need not be brought up again.


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## armyvern (16 Sep 2008)

Rodahn said:
			
		

> In my opinion the military failed this member, here was a young lad who went face to face with the Native Canadians during Oka, and became somewhat of a celebrity. He was then promoted, prior to his being ready due to his notoriety from this incident. Then sent on a mission in which the unit was ill prepared. (Mortarman, please correct me if I'm wrong here, as I believe that you were involved at Oka).
> 
> Overall I think that the fault belongs with the CF, and the collective leadership at the time, due to the replacement of the CO just prior to a mission of such magnitude, and failure by higher to heed possible warning signs of distubing activities (hazing in) that was unacceptable.



Uhmmm, that face off was between Warrior "Freddy Kreuger" & Pte Patrick Clouthier (who went on to infamy with his movie debut ...  ) and, as far as I'm aware, Clayton Matchee played no part in the OKA standoff whatsoever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Cloutier


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## Eye In The Sky (16 Sep 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Uhmmm, that face off was between *Warrior "Freddy Kreuger"* & Pte Patrick Clouthier (who went on to infamy with his movie debut ...  ) and, as far as I'm aware, Clayton Matchee played no part in the OKA standoff whatsoever.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Cloutier



IIRC he went by Lasagna???


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## geo (16 Sep 2008)

... actualy, it was "freddy".. the media messed up.


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## Eye In The Sky (16 Sep 2008)

For some reason, I think that picture of their stand-off was in the last issue of The Sentinel?


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## Rodahn (16 Sep 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Uhmmm, that face off was between Warrior "Freddy Kreuger" & Pte Patrick Clouthier (who went on to infamy with his movie debut ...  ) and, as far as I'm aware, Clayton Matchee played no part in the OKA standoff whatsoever.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Cloutier



I stand corrected. Thanks Vern.


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## the 48th regulator (16 Sep 2008)

Vern is correct,

Ronald “Lasagna” Cross was often mistaken as being in the photo.  Howerver Lasagna has a brother,Tracey (sp. Tracy?) Cross, who seved with the RCR, the CAR, and former police chief of Kanehsatake Police.

dileas

tess


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## Puss~in~Boots (16 Sep 2008)

Ottawa Sun
September 16, 2008:

SASKATOON -- The Canadian military has closed one of the darkest chapters in its history by dropping all charges against a former soldier accused of the torture and murder of a Somali teenager. 

Clayton Matchee, 43, has a serious brain injury and will never be fit to stand trial for the 1993 crime, said Bruce MacGregor, deputy director of military prosecutions. 

"It's no longer in the public interest to proceed on these charges," MacGregor said yesterday. 

"Our case is closed against Mr. Matchee." 

The master corporal was charged with the death of Shidane Arone, but shortly after his arrest he suffered major brain damage in a suicide attempt. 




For the past 15 years, Matchee has been subject to an annual psychiatric review by the Saskatchewan Review Board. And every two years, a standing court martial has convened to look at his case. 

In the meantime, the Supreme Court has ruled people found permanently unfit for trial should not be kept in the system indefinitely. 

After determining Matchee posed no threat to the public, he was released from a Saskatchewan hospital in February to the care of his mother, MacGregor said. 

According to documents, members of the Canadian Airborne Regiment arrested 16-year-old Arone on the night of March 16, 1993 and placed him in custody. 

An hour later, a soldier in the guard tower of the Canadian compound heard screams coming from the bunker where Arone was being held. Inside, the blind-folded teen was shackled and had been brutally beaten. A cigar was used to burn the soles of his feet. 

News of the shocking killing tarnished Canada's reputation as a peacekeeper and, following a government inquiry, led to the disbanding of the airborne.


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## armyvern (16 Sep 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> IIRC he went by Lasagna???



I believe that "Lasagna" was one of the two Warriors who was involved in the severe beating of a native couple when they returned during the standoff to thier home and found it ransacked and vandalized. He and the other were arrested by fellow Warriors ... and that beating was the impetus that resulted in the cordons being tightened and a ramp-up in the level of military action to end the standoff soonest due to the increased risk, and deterioration in safety for those Native elderly, women, and children still behind the lines. Essentially, these two warriors turned on their own ... and the end probably came sooner for it. I do believe that they were turned over to QPP, charged, tried, and convicted for the assaults as well.

My memory though - could be way off. "Lasagna" was tossed around by the media a lot, and could perhaps have been mistakingly identified with that picture  ...


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## Redeye (16 Sep 2008)

His real name is Brad Larocque.  He was a student at the University of Saskatchewan, and an Ojibway from Regina, not a Mohawk from Oka.



			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Uhmmm, that face off was between Warrior "Freddy Kreuger" & Pte Patrick Clouthier (who went on to infamy with his movie debut ...  ) and, as far as I'm aware, Clayton Matchee played no part in the OKA standoff whatsoever.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Cloutier


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## armyvern (16 Sep 2008)

Redeye said:
			
		

> His real name is Brad Larocque.  He was a student at the University of Saskatchewan.



Yes it was -- it says so right under the picture in that link. Warrior "Freddy Kreuger" aka Brad Larocque; that's why I put it there. Some people just must have missed it.


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