# Merged Child Custody in CF thread (joint custody, etc.)



## JBoyd (31 Mar 2009)

Posting this in Radio Chatter as I cannot think of a suitable section for this post, feel free to move to a more suitable section if need be. Also, I have tried searching for something similar but have not come across anything. (EDIT: Thank you George)

To put things as simply as possible, my partner and myself separated last year for a period of about 6 months, during this time she dated someone else. This someone else decided to get her pregnant by not wearing a condom, without her knowledge (he has admitted to this in writing). He also stated he wanted nothing to do with this child when they broke up in December. 

My partner and I have since reconciled, and since becoming aware of this he has started sending her nasty text messages saying he will do whatever he can to make her life a living hell (his words exactly). She is in the process of dealing with the police on this matter, as well as contacting Legal Aid to secure a lawyer so that she can apply for sole custody & guardianship. We also have 2 children from our relationship prior to the separation.

My concern is this, from whom I have spoken to (Family Justice, Law Line), if she does not have sole custody & guardianship the biological father can prevent her from moving the child to another province (she would need either his permission or the courts). As I am in the application process, this will obviously become a problem when I finish the training process,am posted, and am able to move my family out to me. Does the CF have any services to help members in such circumstances? Has anyone here had any experience in a situation similar to this? 

I would rather not allow someone other then myself or the CF determine the outcome of my career future and would like to pursue the options available to my and my family. Any advice would be appreciated. Thank you.


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## Lil_T (31 Mar 2009)

Something of a similar situation. 

My ex decided to take me to court for custody when I escaped left Cape Breton.  Granted, I didn't handle the situation the best way I could, but I did what I felt I had to at the time.

My only advice is for your girlfriend to proceed with her application for sole custody.  The courts will take into consideration this fellow's actions.  Keep any and all correspondence from him as it is evidence.

The biological father does have the right to block movement of his child.  I had to get my ex to sign a form stating that he was aware of and agreed to our move to Ontario.  The CF didn't have any part in our court proceedings and we had to secure our own private lawyer as we did not qualify for legal aid.  

The only way you're going to know for sure how this is going to play out is to go through the courts.  Worst case scenario you will have to move without your family for a brief time.  

IF she applies for an emergency hearing she can be in court within a week.  BUT - there has to be cause for the emergency hearing (ie/ he takes the baby for visitation and doesn't return or something else that is suspect).  Provincial courts also can vary so I hope she gets in quickly to speak to someone from Legal Aid.

good luck - it's a sucky situation I wouldn't wish on anyone.


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## Occam (1 Apr 2009)

Yikes.  Not the kind of stuff you want to deal with as a serving member, much less as one that's just starting out.  That said...

Document everything going on with the biological father.  Start a log book.  Ensure the police know that you're going to want to be able to rely on the text messages that were sent as evidence in family court matters.

The CF has precious little to assist you in private legal matters.  It may also be that Legal Aid will not be able to assist you since family income is usually used to determine eligibility.  She may not be eligible once you start receiving a paycheck from the CF.

Don't take my word as gospel, but do ask a lawyer about these issues, as they might be pertinent.  It would behoove you to settle the issue sooner than later, but I think you probably know that.


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## JBoyd (1 Apr 2009)

Thank you for your reply Lil_T. 

She has kept all correspondence to date, and on a side note; does anyone know how to transfer text messages from a Samsung phone to a PC?

He seems to want to be really nasty as he has said he is going to call our landlord and try to get us evicted through false accusations. I can pretty much guarantee that he will never sign anything agreeing to allow the child to move to another province. 

How difficult is sole custody & guardianship to obtain? We do have evidence that could deem him unfit to be a parent (drug habit,was abusive to our current children during their relationship which was a factor as to why she broke up with him). As well, he currently would be unable to care and provide for a child on his own.  

We are trying to settle this as quickly and efficiently as possible. Many things have been recorded, including things he has said in the past. Not sure what can and cannot be used in any court proceedings.


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## Occam (1 Apr 2009)

JBoyd said:
			
		

> She has kept all correspondence to date, and on a side note; does anyone know how to transfer text messages from a Samsung phone to a PC?



I'm not sure you'd want to, and if you could, it probably wouldn't be admissible since once it's on your PC, it's able to be edited.  If you want the text messages to be of any use, check with the police and/or Rogers to see the best way to preserve the messages in a manner in which you can't be accused of tampering with them.  Rogers is probably even able to retrieve the actual messages from the system if subpoenaed by the police, but you'd want to inquire about that sooner than later because they would likely purge the messages after a set period of time.  Ideally the police would get something from Rogers saying something to the effect that "Cell number xxx-xxx-xxxx sent this text yyyyyyyy to this cell number zzz-zzz-zzzz on such and such a date and time".  Rogers has no reason to lie, and would be an independent witness.



> He seems to want to be really nasty as he has said he is going to call our landlord and try to get us evicted through false accusations. I can pretty much guarantee that he will never sign anything agreeing to allow the child to move to another province.



Again, document everything.  Maybe warn your landlord ahead of time of the motives of the biological father - you'd end up being able to rely on the landlord as a witness if he knows to pay attention to whatever this wingnut is saying.  Forewarned is forearmed.



> How difficult is sole custody & guardianship to obtain? We do have evidence that could deem him unfit to be a parent (drug habit,was abusive to our current children during their relationship which was a factor as to why she broke up with him). As well, he currently would be unable to care and provide for a child on his own.
> 
> We are trying to settle this as quickly and efficiently as possible. Many things have been recorded, including things he has said in the past. Not sure what can and cannot be used in any court proceedings.



If you didn't personally hear something said, and you can't produce a witness to appear in court to testify to hearing something said, then it'll probably never get heard in court.  Everything else is stuff that only a lawyer can answer.  

edit:  added text


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## Sub_Guy (1 Apr 2009)

Abusive to YOUR kids?  How this guy is able to text messages is beyond me, I would have crushed his hands with a hammer.  *removes angry dad hat*

Just forward the text's from the phone to an email address, it works on my phone and it's a 7/11 special!

The best defense is a good offense, so take some legal action against him for being abusive to your kids.


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## JBoyd (1 Apr 2009)

I`ll have her call Rogers tomorrow to see what she can do on the matters of the text messages. The other correspondence she has are typed letters that have no signature, I am guessing that these could easily be refuted in court. As far as witness's go, The people who have heard some of the wingnut stuff along with anything else is myself, her brother, and her sister.  I personally witnessed him throw a car at my older son's head, it took quite a lot of reserve not to lash out at that particular moment. She also has photographs of certain 'toys' she found that made her quite uneasy about having him around our son's. 

She will be calling the Law Line in the morning to seek further legal advice, as well she is in the process of applying for legal aid. This is definitely stressing her out right now considering she is due in May, this is why I am doing the leg work, trying to save her more stress

Dolphin_Hunter, as I mentioned earlier it took me everything in my power to not jump across the room and pummel him into non-existence. I however, held a cool head and took a better approach to the matter (they broke up shortly there-after). As much as I would have liked to of done something, being in that sort of trouble would serve no benefit to myself or my children.


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## FastEddy (1 Apr 2009)

[/quote]

He sounds like a real winner. First of all, do you know his place of employment, length, Income and work record in general.


humour me, you'll see where this is going.

Cheers.


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## JBoyd (1 Apr 2009)

Actually, due to the fact he was around my children at some point I did a fair bit of research. He is currently working part-time at Canadian Tire as a merchandiser/stocker. I am unaware his hourly wage but judging from other companies in the area and from his position I would say somewhere around 10-11 dollars per hour. He has been working there since late November 2008. His work record is, well, very poor to say the least. He was working construction when he met my girlfriend and was commonly let go after a week or two. He mainly gained construction employment through Labour Unlimited (one of those be there in the morning for work type places). From speaking with his step-father in October I gathered that he commonly goes through 4-5 jobs in the course of a couple of months. He is also apparently studying to go to school for medical transcription. 

On the flip-side, his mother is a Millionaire (not sure if this matters or not, however my girlfriend is worried that she will throw her money around to secure a beneficial outcome for her son)



edited for spelling


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## FastEddy (1 Apr 2009)

JBoyd said:
			
		

> Actually, due to the fact he was around my children at some point I did a fair bit of research. He is currently working part-time at Canadian Tire as a merchandiser/stocker. I am unaware his hourly wage but judging from other companies in the area and from his position I would say somewhere around 10-11 dollars per hour. He has been working there since late November 2008. His work record is, well, very poor to say the least. He was working construction when he met my girlfriend and was commonly let go after a week or two. He mainly gained construction employment through Labour Unlimited (one of those be there in the morning for work type places). From speaking with his step-father in October I gathered that he commonly goes through 4-5 jobs in the course of a couple of months. He is also apparently studying to go to school for medical transcription.
> 
> One the flip-side, his mother is a Millionaire (not sure if this matters or not, however my girlfriend is worried that she will throw her money around to secure a beneficial outcome for her son)




Aaah! Goodnews and bad news, Just as I figured, his viability for Custody or even Visitation is in serious doubt. This along with a Police record (I would bet even money that this guy has one), along with a Alcohol or Drug Problem. Plus any evidence of Domestic Violence or Harassment, should kill any chances he has in a favourable decision.

Now you are definitely going to have to get a Lawyer. Who must orchestrate for 1. A paternity test. 2. Search and/or Police Records. 3. Request Drug Screening and a Independent Psychiatric Evaluation. Plus a paper trail of Work History.4. Get a Protection Order for you and your Partner.

Now you say why ?, well he's giving you and your Partner grief. well believe it or not, you can make his life a living hell and all of the above becomes a matter of record.

Now a real nifty tactic, your Partner is going to sue him for Child support for the max. If I'm not wrong about this Character, that alone will get him to sign off on everything with the proviso that she would drop the Child Support.

This Guy sounds dangerous and you want to get him as far away as possible or in Jail. Don't let your Lawyer back pedal you on the above or they are not necessary or possible.

Now the only Fly in the ointment is his Mother. Money talks and is power.I've seen a few surprises when there is a intervention of Parents, especially if they were wealthy. (the latter pertaining to Custody).

Please note that I'm not trying to be Judgemental or Intrusive, but I would highly suggest you marry your Partner before you start all this. Believe me, it will make a difference.

Cheers.


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## JBoyd (1 Apr 2009)

We are most definitely talking about getting legally married. 

You are not wrong about his character, however he is one hell of a momma's boy, and with her wealth It would most likely be her paying it anyways as she pays for everything for him. She has a history of having people's children taken away but one thing that works for us is that her husband is an alcoholic and my girlfriends nephews found a bottle of alcohol under the couch when they were over their on thanksgiving of last year. 

As far as a record is concerned, my girlfriend believes he does not have one. How accurate this is I do not know, however a drug screening would most definitely turn up marijuana usage. 

As far as the suing for child support, I would love to see him bled dry. I am not exactly sure where but during my search today I remember reading something on one of the BC government or family law pages that mentioned offering dropped child support for sole custody and that the courts would not accept that as child support is not for the parent it is for the child and the parents cannot barter away something that is not theirs. 

After a bit of searching I have come across what I have read



> Children's Right to Claim Child Support
> 
> In almost all cases, it is the parent who claims child support on behalf of a child, not the child. However, the right to benefit from the payment of child support belongs to the child, not the the parent. This is the fundamental reason why the court will not uphold an agreement in which one parent agrees not to pursue a claim for child support in return for the abandonment of the other person's "parental rights:" parents cannot bargain away rights that do not belong to them.



source: http://www.bcfamilylawresource.com/04/0400body.htm  (about 3/4 or so down the page)

I will do whatever I can to make this guy's life hell and will certainly pass your advice along to my girlfriend. Regarding the paternity test, will she have to pay for it? or will they foot him with the bill? If that is the case and he refuses what happens then? (If this is not in your knowledge it is ok, I will have my girlfriend ask her lawyer  )


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## TimBit (1 Apr 2009)

JBoyd said:
			
		

> Actually, due to the fact he was around my children at some point I did a fair bit of research. He is currently working part-time at Canadian Tire as a merchandiser/stocker. I am unaware his hourly wage but judging from other companies in the area and from his position I would say somewhere around 10-11 dollars per hour. He has been working there since late November 2008. His work record is, well, very poor to say the least. He was working construction when he met my girlfriend and was commonly let go after a week or two. He mainly gained construction employment through Labour Unlimited (one of those be there in the morning for work type places). From speaking with his step-father in October I gathered that he commonly goes through 4-5 jobs in the course of a couple of months. He is also apparently studying to go to school for medical transcription.
> 
> On the flip-side, his mother is a Millionaire (not sure if this matters or not, however my girlfriend is worried that she will throw her money around to secure a beneficial outcome for her son)
> 
> ...



Talk about disfunctional: milionaire-mother and thug-son...

Good luck my friend! Glad to see you have people with good knowledge here helping out!


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## Lil_T (1 Apr 2009)

I cannot stress how important it really is to document everything.  Even the things that don't seem important.

I second the paternity test.   As far as the mother goes.  Any lawyer she hires is still going to have to prove that A. Her son is a fit parent (does not seem to be the case) B. Your girlfriend is not a fit parent.  Honestly, there's no telling what is on his record regardless of what your GF says.  

Keep your bases covered and don't trust anyone who suddenly takes an interest in the situation.


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## JBoyd (1 Apr 2009)

Dysfunctional is an understatement.

Although her son may be deemed unfit, She would try and take custody for her self. She is an evil women and I will explain why. She had her husbands son's children taken away from them, then applied for guardianship and had them living with her. Her daughter now has custody of those kids. She has a big history of having children taken and my girlfriend is quite stressing at this point. 

Out of curiosity, If we were to move and not be able to be found by them, and if they didn't immediately try to go for some type of custody what would the eventual outcome be? Is it better to wait until he makes a move in-case he gets lazy (as he is known to be) and decides never to do anything because he doesn't want the responsibility or to pay child-support or to preemptively strike and chance him or his mother gaining custody?

Also, as she is pregnant still, if we were to strike first should she wait until the baby is born to start all this? or do it before? I know a paternity test can be done while the baby is unborn, however my girlfriend is not wanting to have amniotic fluid removed as she believes it can and will endanger the baby and the pregnancy.

I know we are in a very difficult situation right now with very little positive outcome scenarios but I greatly appreciate the support and advice from you all.


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## TimBit (1 Apr 2009)

JBoyd said:
			
		

> Dysfunctional is an understatement.
> 
> Although her son may be deemed unfit, She would try and take custody for her self. She is an evil women and I will explain why. She had her husbands son's children taken away from them, then applied for guardianship and had them living with her. Her daughter now has custody of those kids. She has a big history of having children taken and my girlfriend is quite stressing at this point.
> 
> ...



I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me that "running away" and hiding will only make things worse, i.e. it would look as if you are trying to avoid the law... but others will know better.


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## aesop081 (1 Apr 2009)

JBoyd said:
			
		

> where but during my search today I remember reading something on one of the BC government or family law pages that mentioned offering dropped child support for sole custody and that the courts would not accept that as child support is not for the parent it is for the child and the parents cannot barter away something that is not theirs.



As i am sure you understand from reading, the ammount of child support is determined by a table and is proportional to the paying parent's income so "bleeding him dry" is not an option. Neither does one "sue" for child support.


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## JBoyd (1 Apr 2009)

I am aware of how child support is calculated, which raises another concern: Is the paying parent's income figured out through income tax and NOA's? If so then this character has not filed taxes in at least 5 years (he is somewhat of a hardcore conspiracy theory nut)


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## Newt (1 Apr 2009)

I'm not a lawyer, so don't take anything said as legal advice. In addition to the suggestions you've already been given I would suggest that you:

1. Read up on the BC Family Relations Act http://www.bclaws.ca/Recon/document/freeside/--%20F%20--/Family%20Relations%20Act%20%20RSBC%201996%20%20c.%20128/00_96128_01.xml

2. Discuss with your partner and your lawyer the possibility of you being granted guardianship if it's your intention to raise the child as your own (and BZ to you if that's the case).

3. Keep in mind that BC is a women's lib paradise and that mothers have significant pull with the courts when it comes to matters of custody and access. 

4. Cover your behind. Do not retaliate to his actions or words. If his mother decides to take action you could very well be a target, so don't give them the chance. 

Good luck.


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## Sub_Guy (1 Apr 2009)

JBoyd said:
			
		

> Dolphin_Hunter, as I mentioned earlier it took me everything in my power to not jump across the room and pummel him into non-existence. I however, held a cool head and took a better approach to the matter (they broke up shortly there-after). As much as I would have liked to of done something, being in that sort of trouble would serve no benefit to myself or my children.



I have to wonder though what would have happened...  Adult abuses kid, parent of that kid kicks the crap out of adult.  I would gladly take the charge, with a smile on my face.

1. Remove kid from room
2. Proceed with ass kicking

But that's just me and my wacky thinking, I could not live with myself if I had walked away from something like that.  I consider myself to be a calm guy, but I know seeing some dink throw something at my kid (intentionally to hurt) would immediately push my anger meter off the charts.


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## geo (1 Apr 2009)

From a personal perspective, I do not see the grand mother being able to simply walk in and take the child away...  For that to happen, she would have to prove to the courts that the mother AND the father of the child are incompetent to care for it's wants & needs.  She might be able to prove that her son (and the rest of her children) are incapable of raising children - but she should NOT be able to prove your wife/mate is not able to do same.
Your spouse / GF may have a bit of squirming to do WRT her walkabout on you... explain the how & why this happened in the 1st place... but the argument must always return to... "do what is best for the child"


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## aesop081 (1 Apr 2009)

JBoyd said:
			
		

> I am aware of how child support is calculated, which raises another concern: Is the paying parent's income figured out through income tax and NOA's? If so then this character has not filed taxes in at least 5 years (he is somewhat of a hardcore conspiracy theory nut)



T4s are one way to calculate the person's income but its not the only one that the court can use. In the end, the court can order that his wages be garnished if he refuses to pay or rpovide the required employment information.


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## JBoyd (1 Apr 2009)

Thank you all for your advice. 

Newt, when my girlfriend and I reconciled the first thing I told her was that I would accept that child and raise it as my own. Despite being from another father it shares blood relation with my own children and that is enough for me (I was raised to think that being a father was a lot more than just blood, also I am not sure what BZ means). We are not responding to any of his correspondence, and in by doing so is letting him dig his own grave. 

As soon as we can we are going to apply for Legal Aid and get a lawyer, we are also in the process of moving in case he takes a dive into the deep end so to speak. 

I think all in all my biggest worry is not that he will get sole custody or that the child would be taken away, it is that my understanding is that sole custody is not easy to achieve and if custody is joint it leaves my career in his hands. Perhaps not my career specifically but he would control whether or not my family could or could not move out of the province to be with me wherever I was posted. 

I will apply for guardianship and custody of this child along with my girlfriend if it is permitted, as well as will be signing the birth certificate as co-parent. Is there any chance that being in the application process for the CF will be looked favourably upon by the courts? or perhaps will be looked upon favourably if there ever comes a time when we must petition the court for permission to move the child outside of the province?


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## geo (1 Apr 2009)

BZ = Bravo Zulu = Kudos, congratulations, that kinda stuff.

#1 if you are married, the 1st two kids are yours & this one comes along.... I would imagine that the courts will consider that the relationship is relatively solid (xcept for dalliance with boy blunder).


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## JBoyd (2 Apr 2009)

Ahh ok, was not aware of what BZ meant but thanks 

Geo, that is what I am hoping for too, we were planning to get married anyways so this doesn't change that or have us in a marriage where resentment could build. In all honesty our separation in a ways strengthened our relationship (sounds weird but it would be a very long explanation). 

For those that wish to stay aware of this situation I will post regular updates, Our first step is to contact a lawyer and get married. We also have a move ahead of us and a large amount of purging, which will most likely result in a couple of garage sales. 

Once again I would like to thank everyone for their advice, there are many things mentioned that I would have never thought to request or do.


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## Kat Stevens (2 Apr 2009)

Skip joining the army.  Write all this stuff down, then pitch it to the networks. It's pure HBO gold, I tell ya.


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## PanaEng (2 Apr 2009)

First off you have my support for doing this.

For the phone: 
- yes, get rogers to get that info if posible. 
- But first, take pictures of the phone showing the model and serial if posible (serial number is behid the battery so do it last), the phone's number displayed, the date it shows. Then take pictures of the mailbox (text messg.) shoing the list of messages then the message itself including the time/date and source. Better if you take them with a film camera. If you have a digital camera, get a small memory card for the phone and use it only for these pictures. If you transfer them to a computer, don't use any program to download them. You can open the phone as attached storage and copy them using explorer. Don't use any program to touch them up. The programs that edit the file will change the headder information and that is not good.

- as for moving, and someone with more knowledge correct me if I'm wrong, since the baby is not borne yet I think you two are free to move to wherever you like.

Anyway, keep it up and be proactive - but don't do anything to hasty.
good luck with that and with joining up.

cheers,
Frank


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## JBoyd (9 Apr 2009)

An update for those who are following this and have provided me with advice:

While we have been talking to lawyers and getting everything into order for when the time comes, my gf (soon to be wife) was diagnosed with gestational diabetes today. I am not entirely educated on it so I cannot inform you specifically what it is, only that it can be very serious and that she now must see doctors much more often as well as be on a specialized diet. I have been told that there is a chance that if it doesn't get into check that she can lose the baby or worse.


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## Lil_T (10 Apr 2009)

Just make sure your gf follows the doctors orders WRT diet/ activity levels.  Gestational diabetes can also cause higher birthweight.  Good luck to you both and I hope your journey isn't a long drawn out one.


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## JBoyd (10 Apr 2009)

Lil_T said:
			
		

> Just make sure your gf follows the doctors orders WRT diet/ activity levels.  Gestational diabetes can also cause higher birthweight.  Good luck to you both and I hope your journey isn't a long drawn out one.



WRT birthweight, my gf was told that at its current size if it continues on the same path it will be 11 pounds at birth and will most likely require a c-section. she isn't to happy about that so we plan on doing what we can to get it into check


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## JBoyd (3 May 2009)

Going good so far, and it looks like my application process is somewhat on hold for now, waiting for my medical and interview to be scheduled. Due to the hot trades getting priority I am at the lower end of the list, and the Kelowna remote is usually always booked full so I might be waiting a few months for my booking, as well it looks like it will be 1-4 months (if not more) for my medical to be looked over by AUMB and for me to be assigned an Air Factor. I will probably have a good amount of time to get things sorted out here at home before I am merit listed. Although I know by saying that I am probably going to jinx myself


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## JBoyd (9 May 2009)

Just an update, My GF and I got married earlier today


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## Lil_T (9 May 2009)

JBoyd said:
			
		

> Just an update, My GF and I got married earlier today



Well congratulations!!!

ps - she's your WIFE now ;D


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## geo (11 May 2009)

Good gawd JB - so much for temporary insanity 

Congratulations!


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## PMedMoe (11 May 2009)

Congrats!!


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## Raye (12 May 2009)

Congrats to both you and your wife.


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## JBoyd (12 May 2009)

Thanks everyone, just waiting on the baby to be born now, should be any day now (she is scheduled to have it induced on the 20th due to the GDM)


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## Lil_T (13 May 2009)

well double congratulations! May's quite the busy month


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## JBoyd (27 May 2009)

Well her doctors seemed to be pretty confident in her control of her blood-glucose levels so they decided not to induce. She gave birth naturally (read no drugs other then N2O, although I am sure she would have liked to have had an epidural if the anaesthesiologist wasn't so busy) at 0242 this morning to a healthy, quite loud, baby boy. Have not decided on a name as of yet as both baby and mother were quite tired afterwards. I just got home myself from the hospital so I plan on getting some sleep as well.

I plan on updating with the more pertinent legal information as it develops.


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## Old Sweat (27 May 2009)

Congratulations and best wishes to the three of you.


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## PMedMoe (27 May 2009)

Congrats and good luck with everything.


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## Lil_T (27 May 2009)

Congratulations!  I hope the little man has a name soon.


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## JBoyd (27 May 2009)

We hope so too , getting a little harder though to name our children, we haven't found that one name that just stands out and suits him yet. 

He also is currently on an IV (antibiotics) and oxygen, apparently he still has some fluid in his lungs that is causing shallow breathing. Apparently this is common and will fix it self within the first 24-36 hours, however try explaining that to a woman who carried a baby for 9 months, gave birth, and now cannot hold it for the first day or two. needless to say she is not happy.. however on the bright side she can get some much needed sleep.


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## BlueJingo (30 May 2009)

Wow a wife and new baby you must be very happy right now!  Hope everything goes okay with the wee one (Mine was born 1 mo early and she was at NICU she pulled through (I agree seems to be a common practice) I am sure yours will too) Best Wishes

And your wife she should enjoy the sleep (I don't think i've slept for a couple months now....i'm like a ZOMBIE) Send her well wishes with her recovery too.


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## Raye (31 May 2009)

Does baby boy have a name yet?


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## Scratch_043 (31 May 2009)

Wow, I can't believe how similar this is to my situation right now.....

My GF has been separated from her (soon to be ex) husband for 8 months now, and is going through legal aid and the courts to gain full custody of their daughter, followed by divorce.

Problem is, that she tells me that she can't move out here with me (to AB from ON) because (a) she does not yet have full custody, and (b) even when she gets full custody (he's not going to fight for dual custody) she will have to stay in Ontario in order to allow access for him to see her daughter. 

He has been abusive to her son (not his) twice in the past, and children's aid has a dossier on him, and I really do not want him around. This in addition to the fact that I know he does not have the child's best interests at heart, but instead is trying to keep her from being happy. He has in the past sent her emails, texts, etc. stating that he wants nothing to do with her or the kids, calling her derogatory names, the whole bit. It just makes me sick.

He has another child with another woman, who he also never sees, and makes no effort to see, and since being separated, he has knocked up another woman, which he broke up with as soon as he found out she was pregnant and it was his, and now wants nothing to do with her too.

Is there any advise that the more legal savvy members can provide for my particular situation? I know that he will not sign anything saying that she can move, because he is a spiteful SOB, is there anything that she can do to persuade the courts to allow her to move with the kids (son isn't a problem, she had full custody, no visitation) between provinces? I know that one suggestion would be to allow him to take the child for a couple weeks in the summer or whatever, but I do not trust him with her, given his history (granted, it is with the other child, not her)

A little bit more content than I originally intended on providing, but I wanted to give a little background to the situation as well.

It's driving me nuts, and I would appreciate any advice anyone can provide.

Nic


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## mseop 935 (31 May 2009)

Occam said:
			
		

> I'm not sure you'd want to, and if you could, it probably wouldn't be admissible since once it's on your PC, it's able to be edited.  If you want the text messages to be of any use, check with the police and/or Rogers to see the best way to preserve the messages in a manner in which you can't be accused of tampering with them.
> 
> Talk with the police if he is using threatening language in the texts.  They have the ability to remove texts from a cellphone for use in court.
> 
> ...


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## armyvern (31 May 2009)

ToRN said:
			
		

> Problem is, that she tells me that she can't move out here with me (to AB from ON) because (a) she does not yet have full custody, and (b) even when she gets full custody (he's not going to fight for dual custody) she will have to stay in Ontario in order to allow access for him to see her daughter.



Not quite. In her filing she has to make sure that she states that she wishes to remove the child from the province for employment/education/future marital purposes etc and that she requests that provision be granted in the custody order.

Most (if not all) provinces have the automatic provision against removing a minor child from provincial jusrisdiction UNLESS you request otherwise.

The custody agreement that we are awaiting clearly states that our children can move from province to province with either parent, but that access will still occur and costs of arranging for travel and such will be divided equally between both parents. (he has kids during school year, I have them summers, march breaks, and either of Christmas/New Years.)

It's not an impossible situation, but she has to make the court aware of why and what she wants.


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## startbutton (31 May 2009)

I agree with Army Vern here.  My wife has Sole custody of my Step Daughter, and all we require to move is his permission in writing, we dont have to go back to court if he consents.  We just have to give him a reasonable access plan (he gets March Break, a week during Christmas Break, and a month of Summer Vacation to total the number of days he would otherwise have with his Bi-weekly access IF we are posted to another Province)

If she and her ex can come to an agreement she Is allowed to move the child.  If they cannot come to an agreement, your wife can take him to court to have a Judge decide, and so long as she offers a reasonable access plan, offer to cover the long distance charges of weekly phone calls and such; its not likely she would be denied.


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## Scratch_043 (31 May 2009)

thanks a lot for your replies. My concerns stem from the fact that the father has made no effort to even so much as call his daughter in 8 months, when he left; took the minivan that was in both their names, forcing her to get a 18 year old compact car in which to drive the kids around, the television, etc. etc. which shows me that he has nobodys interests in mind but his own.

Since he will not be filing for, or even if he did request it, not receiving, joint custody, because of the children's aid reports, I don't think an agreement like that would be possible.

He will still be filing for visitation, she tells me that he will be granted at least supervised access, for which she can't move, because she would be acting to deny access to him (even though he probably wouldn't even notice if she moved across the city, across the country, or across the universe).


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## Celticgirl (31 May 2009)

Custody issues seem common with those in the military. In my early weeks of basic training, my ex applied for custody of our daughter (one of two personal crises I ended up having to deal with on top of my training). I've heard about several similar cases since then...this is not a rare thing to happen to those joining the CF. I thought leaving my daughter with her father while I went away on training was the 'right' thing to do, but he is using my career in the military as an excuse to take her away from me. I left the reg force in March and am in the process of joining the reserves so that postings every few years won't be an issue after my fiance retires. However, as I am joining the air reserve, I still have to do reg force training and will be away for almost 7 months over the next year. I'm pretty sure that is not going to help my case in court. I am considering making a deal with my ex wherein our daughter stays with him for the next school year (spending summer, Christmas, and other holidays with me) and then she will come to live with me next summer. The main condition will be that her father does not further contest custody after that point. If he doesn't go for that, I may need to delay my enrollment, which I don't really want to do. However, I also don't want to spend the next 9 years without the daughter I have raised from infancy. 

Is there no legal 'clause' that allows some protection to parents who join the military? We shouldn't have to choose between our children and our career in the CF.


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## Scratch_043 (31 May 2009)

I know that in my posts I'm making it sound like I don't want him to have access at all, but that isn't the case, I have no problem with *daughter* getting to know her biological father, and vice versa. If he can prove to me; the courts; and my partner, beyond a doubt, that he has improved, gets a friggin job, takes parenting courses, and can provide a safe, positive environment for *daughter* I would have no problem with allowing him to have time with her, I am just afraid that he will be, well, himself, and either refuse to follow the agreement, not hold up his part of the bargain, and generally cause heartbreak.

*daughter* is now 2 years old, and has forgotten all about her bio father, except for the fact that her last name is *********, I can't help believing that it would be in her best interests, to keep it that way, as bad a person as that makes me sound. My partner has given him plenty of opportunity in the past to come see *daughter* and he has never taken her up on it. When she had a bunch of boxes of his stuff that he wanted back, he sent his mother to her apartment to collect it, and every time he had something of hers to give back, or needed copies of paperwork, etc. he would arrange to meet her somewhere without kids, or show up at her work.


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## armyvern (31 May 2009)

ToRN said:
			
		

> thanks a lot for your replies. My concerns stem from the fact that the father has made no effort to even so much as call his daughter in 8 months, when he left; took the minivan that was in both their names, forcing her to get a 18 year old compact car in which to drive the kids around, the television, etc. etc. which shows me that he has nobodys interests in mind but his own.
> 
> Since he will not be filing for, or even if he did request it, not receiving, joint custody, because of the children's aid reports, I don't think an agreement like that would be possible.
> 
> He will still be filing for visitation, she tells me that he will be granted at least supervised access, for which she can't move, because she would be acting to deny access to him (even though he probably wouldn't even notice if she moved across the city, across the country, or across the universe).



Sure it would still be possible; just think outside of the box.

Surely the child also has grandparents and/or aunts/uncles? Especially for grandparents - this is also their grandchild ... and for some reason they seem to get left behind or neglected in custody cases.

If his parents are in the same province as he is, she could arrange to have the child spend March break, a month during summer etc with them. That would allow "bio dad" to have access to his child in a controlled and supervised manner (if he wants to, and by doing so - she is allowing for that access even if he doesn't "use" it - he'd never have a leg to stand on in court against her in the future if he didn't use his access during those visits with his parents). Likewise - I guarantee it'd make the grandparents day!

If she wants to move, it can happen. She just has to make it happen. As well, she should get this in her filing NOW. Waiting until the hearing is done and the decision made ... means it takes a whole lot more time to sort out afterwards and will have to go all the way back through the Family Court system again ... with a whole new series of full legal costs.

I've had my share of troops use this "provincial custody" clause as an excuse to try to get out of postings ... all of which is moot. The standard response to that around here is "Only, because you didn't ask for that clause to be removed; you're military. Why didn't you? Get a lawyer and get your admin sorted out NOW." NO judge will hold back a military member with custody from moving as long as they have a plan for allowable access for the other parent in place. Military members who fail to bring this clause up as soon as they see it in their custody hearings need to give their head a shake. You're military. You move. The clause will be lifted if you ask it to be BUT you need to ask. It doesn't happen by itself.

Celtic Girl ... and many a custody hearing where one tried to take away custody from the other parent due to them being military has failed. They might try it, but they sure as heck don't succeed very often.


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## Celticgirl (2 Jun 2009)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Celtic Girl ... and many a custody hearing where one tried to take away custody from the other parent due to them being military has failed. They might try it, but they sure as heck don't succeed very often.



Well, I'm about to find out.  :-\


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## Wookilar (22 Apr 2010)

Ok, I've been through the DAODs, CFAOs and even the CBIs for this.

I found one ref in DAOD 5001-2:
"Shared Custody - If a member shares custody of a child with another person, the member is entitled to parental leave only while the member has actual care and custody of the child."

Nothing anywhere else.

There is not really a spot in Peoplesoft to track dependants that do not live with the member except in the address tab.

I'm trying to find references that I can go to the Career Manglers with and get proper posting messages cut that include the children that, through their custyody agreements, live with the parent for the summer. I've got 1 mangler playing ball and one not. Brookfield has been less than helpful for my guys in this area and, of course, they will not speak to me due to "privacy issues."

Anyone got any suggestions on places to look for more directives before I bump it up?

Wook


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## PMedMoe (22 Apr 2010)

What in particular are they looking for?  Posting allowance?  LTA?  

FWIW, my daughter (who resides in NB) is listed on my MPRR as a dependent and she was on my posting message as well.  And I don't even have joint custody.


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## PO2FinClk (22 Apr 2010)

Push come to shove, some of these could be used to elicit consideration.

CFIRP 2009 Policy: http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pd/rel-rei/aps-paa-2009/chapter-chapitre-01-eng.asp


> *Number of dependants* When a posting message does not include all dependants, CF members must provide their Military Personal Records Resume (MPRR) to the service provider to show the number of dependants.
> NOTE 1. In cases of joint/shared custody, when the dependant is residing with the CF member at the time of the relocation, expenses as outlined in the CF IRP Policy may be reimbursed. As per art 3.4.03 the DAE portion of the posting allowance is payable to CF members whose dependants are relocated at public expense.


Using the local CF Coord to obtain clarifications from, or through, IRP is available and sometimes the best recourse.

http://www.cfgb-cgfc.gc.ca/documents/Perspectives_June09-e.pdf


> *Conflict between the DCBA Aide-Memoire and CBIs*
> The Board has recently reviewed several compensation and benefits cases where the grievance has arisen as a result of the application of certain provisions found in the DCBA Aide-Memoire. Through the review of these grievances, the Board has identified significant conflicts between the provisions of the applicable CBI, still in effect at this time, and those of the Aide-Memoire. Of particular concern, the Board noted that the Aide-Memoire places additional restrictions on member’s eligibility for benefits such as the FCA and SE, without the proper regulatory amendment to the applicable CBI.
> 5
> The following are a few examples:
> ...



http://www.cfgb-cgfc.gc.ca/English/2009-045.html
20 Oct 2009


> *Systemic recommendations*
> The Board recommended that the CDS direct an in-depth policy review that clearly addresses SE entitlement and eligibility through appropriate regulations. The Board also recommended that the review consider the unique situation of posted members who have shared custody.
> The Board recommended that the CDS ensure that the practice of making changes to TB authorized benefits before formal approval is received be discontinued.
> The Board recommended that the CDS ensure that clear direction is issued to the DCBA and the IR approval authorities regarding the circumstances under which IR and associated SE benefits may be approved.
> ...


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## Wookilar (22 Apr 2010)

Excellent thanks. That is exactly what we needed.

I was in the '09 agreement this morning, must have been before my pepsi hit my bloodstream ;D

Wook


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## Eye In The Sky (22 Apr 2010)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> What in particular are they looking for?  Posting allowance?  LTA?
> 
> FWIW, my daughter (who resides in NB) is listed on my MPRR as a dependent and she was on my posting message as well.  And I don't even have joint custody.



Ok this is one of my present peeves with the CF.  Maybe a SME resident clerk can shed some light.

I have a daughter who lives in PEI with her mom.  I am not allowed to have her on my MPRR because she doesn't live with me.

I also have 2 step daughters, who ALSO live in PEI with their grandparents while they are finishing high school.  They ARE allowed to be on my MPRR as dependents.  

This is from the Wing OR and it makes NO sense to me ???  I have my 2 step daughters on my MPRR presently but not my daughter..and they all live in PEI while I am posted to NS.

 :stars:


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## PMedMoe (22 Apr 2010)

EITS, is it possible that because your daughter lives with a biological parent, she is not considered your dependent?  (FYI, mine lives with her father).  _Technically_, my daughter is not a dependent, but since the ex is now out of the military, I have no issues listing her as such.  That being said, my status for dependent health care is "non-participant".   And of course, no one ever asked if I had shared or joint custody, either.

I only listed her for the sole purpose that if something ever happened to her father, I'm not trying to add a dependent who never "existed" before.  Of course, maybe then it would be like an adoption and I'd get parental leave.


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## CountDC (23 Apr 2010)

It should depend on your current relationship with her.  If you have not surroundered all rights to and responsibilities for your daughter , or had them taken away by a court order, then you should be able to list her in peoplesoft with a different address indicated.  In fact sometimes the divorce/seperation agreement states that along with child support the member must maintain the dental and health coverage for the children.  In order to do that you have to keep them listed in Peoplesoft as dependants. 

If you show me documentation that you have joint custody and/or pay child support then I will enter them into the system with the different address indicated.  The different address should be a flag to the CM when they go to do your posting message to confirm if you have dependants involved in the move to be listed in your message.

Until I see a regulation stating otherwise I will continue to operate that way.  If your clerks are refusing to do the entry ask them for the regulation they are basing it on.

Can never stress it enough - when a clerk says "this is the way" and it is not in your favour then ask for the regulation.  Little secret - shhhh - we are not always ri ri ri rig current on every policy.


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## Wookilar (23 Apr 2010)

If she is your daughter, she is entitled to be on your MPRR. Even if you have surrendered all rights, you can have her listed as NOK, for instance. 

It's a situation similar to yours  that got us into all this in the first place, we have no solid regs on how to track joint custody. Bits and pieces here and there where someone has already challenged it for whatever benefit that were asking for.

We're putting together a suggestion for the Peoplesoft guru's that will allow us to track things like joint custody with % of time with parent. I'm not so worried about benefits (i.e. money) as I am parental rights that jive with court documents/family care agreements. All we need is a couple of boxes in the Dependants field noting : 1) Live with Member; 2) Do not live with Member; 3) Joint Custody for  date/group.

Given the amount of CF members I personally know that share custody of children, I can't believe this hasn't come up enough times for a procedure to be invented.

Now all I have to do is get Career Manglers to read more than the 490A.

Wook


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## PMedMoe (23 Apr 2010)

If I were _single_, I could indeed list my daughter as NOK.  But, I'm married, so I cannot.


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## CountDC (23 Apr 2010)

um - no.  She is not "entitled" to anything.  As a member of the CF you may add people to your profile as dependants if they meet the requirements to be recognized.  When you surrender all rights and responsibilities then they are no longer recognized as your next of kin.  Been through that one when a nice Lt(N) attempted to take LTA to where his daughter lived after he had given everything up. His only recognized NOK was his mother and he didn't get the LTA.


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## PMedMoe (23 Apr 2010)

CountDC, I was thinking of that as well.  While I understand the listing of dependents might be an issue for some, the CF has a pretty strict definition.

I remember a query on these forums a while ago about someone asking if they could claim LTA to visit a child who does not normally reside with them.  According to DCBA, the answer is no.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't your NOK have to be over 18?  Even when I was single, my daughter was never listed as my NOK as she was too young.  Thankfully, F'ton isn't far from Moncton (where my parents live).


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## Wookilar (23 Apr 2010)

Moe, Count, you're both right of course, as far as Primary NOK is concerned, spouse trumps children.
We do have a member who wants his child as Primary NOK, has no other NOK that fits (some cousins), but the minor is not his dependant. Doesn't work for us.

Count,

I understand (and agree) re:LTA and other benefits that are linked to NOK when a member has given up all rights. 

What I am trying to sort through is trying to administer for a parent who has court documents clearly stating times where they have custody and it got me to thinking about the systemic approach to all this. It seems that administratively we have not kept up to the courts.

It's easy enough to handle at the unit level, the OR's can be kept informed on any changes. The problem is when things leave the unit lines and people start looking at at you like you have 17 heads  ;D.

Wook


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## Eye In The Sky (23 Apr 2010)

I believe the reason I was denied my daughter being on my MPRR is the CF definition of dependent IAW the DCBA Aide Memoire if I recall...which is what makes me bang my head on the table, as my 2 step daughters don't live with Mrs EITS and myself either but they ARE on my MPRR.

When I was PRes my daugher lived in PEI, I was NOT in PEI, and she was on my MPRR.  Then I did my CT...and she was on my MPRR.  Then I was posted to YAW, and the folks there said she couldn't be, removed her, added my 2 step daughters, removed them THEN added my 2 step daughters back...but even though I told them that they did NOT reside with us, the listed them as living in NS with us anyways...anyone remember *The Gong Show* of yester-year?   ;D

I've had more headaches trying to get the info correct on my MPRR every year I have to indicate what is incorrect on it and sign that damn thing than...well anything else in my life.  I have no had a *correct* MPRR for over a decade I am sure.


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## Jarnhamar (1 Mar 2015)

If a member is on a career course and they get served with a surprise court date for custody issues can the member ask the court to move the court date to the right until after their course (say if there is a month left on course).

If the member wants to RTU themselves in order to deal with the court issues what type of RTU does it fall under?


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## Tibbson (1 Mar 2015)

Yes you can certainly ask the court for a change in the date and I'd try that first before I went the RTU route.


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## PuckChaser (1 Mar 2015)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> If the member wants to RTU themselves in order to deal with the court issues what type of RTU does it fall under?



As its custody issues, I'd be inclined to say its compassionate grounds.

I certainly hope the court would be receptive to moving the date as well.


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## Jarnhamar (1 Mar 2015)

Can the member request the court change the date over the phone or would they have to travel to the court in person and request it?


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## Tibbson (1 Mar 2015)

Call the court and ask them.  They will tell you the process.


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## Jarnhamar (1 Mar 2015)

Wise words thanks


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## kratz (1 Mar 2015)

When I had this happen to me in the 1990s, I asked a good friend to appear in court and make my request for a delay, in my place.
The judge recognized the effort, acknowledge she was a good friend in appearing for me and did move the date to when I would be off course and available. So, as advised above, call the court to confirm expectations and you may be able to avoid the expensive cost of a lawyer for one appearance.


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## cupper (1 Mar 2015)

I would suggest that the member get a lawyer if he can afford it, and make the request through his council. If he can't afford one, definitely contact the court and request a delay, or as Kratz suggested, have a close friend or relative make the request.

But foremost, he should definitely get a lawyer if at all possible to represent his interests. The legal system is no place for anyone to try DIY, unless you have a legal background.


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## brihard (3 Mar 2015)

cupper said:
			
		

> I would suggest that the member get a lawyer if he can afford it, and make the request through his council. If he can't afford one, definitely contact the court and request a delay, or as Kratz suggested, have a close friend or relative make the request.
> 
> But foremost, he should definitely get a lawyer if at all possible to represent his interests. The legal system is no place for anyone to try DIY, unless you have a legal background.



What Cupper said. Get a lawyer if possible, and contact the court as early as possible. They will usually be receptive to reasonably articulated issues if brought forth in a timely manner. That said, they might not go for it and he needs to be prepared for that too.


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## FJAG (28 Mar 2015)

Almost any court date can be adjourned to a later date for appropriate reasons. The question is what is the nature of the hearing? If this is an urgent or emergency matter than adjournment may be more difficult or even impossible.

In addition please note that in many courts, a motion or application is set for a "first appearance" date but with the clear understanding that at that appearance, all that will happen is that the matter will be adjourned to another date to allow additional documents to be filed, examinations take place etc before a final "hearing" date is set. At these appearances, there is no need for the client to be present, the lawyer's appearance is usually sufficient.

IMHO, custody matters are the most important issues that a family court deals with because they directly effect the relationship between the parents and the child(ren) and, possibly, some serious financial consequences as well. They should not be dealt with in-person or by having a "friend" appear. I obviously do not know what the nature of this motion is, but, if it's serious enough to go before the court then it's serious enough to get immediate legal advice and to get a lawyer involved quickly.

Most family court proceedings (with the exception of a full blown custody trial) require only minimal client appearances in court and until one has a good understanding of what the court proceedings are (whether or not this is an actual hearing date or just a "first appearance" returnable for a later date etc.), it may be that taking RTU actions are premature. 

Hope things work out for the individual.

 :cheers:


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## Alberta Bound (28 Mar 2015)

A most important part is to do some research and get a lawyer who is well regarded in family law - custody issues. Every consult with a lawyer, all pre court prep, every court appearence by the lawyer (or their agent) costs YOU. But if you get a less expensive lawyer who is not very experienced in family law - child custody issues it ultimately will cost you a lot more. The more experienced lawyer will shepherd your issues through the process efficiently and save you from having to go back to court again and again.

The newer lawyer or local generalist who does a bit of wills, real estate, criminal, family, etc may miss problems / issues and ultimately cause you to go back to court over and over again. I have seen this quite often.

Parenting Orders, Custody Orders (interim or full) should never include phrases that leave room for personal interpretation (yes by you and the ex) like "by agreement", "by mutual agreement", "reasonable access" and other generally open phrases. Because if you could come to agreement or be reasonable with each other, then you wouldn't need the court.

Times / locations of custody, meetings, drop offs need to be clearly outlined including the exact dates and locations. 

Also remember. All these orders are only valid in the province they are made in. I have seen parents skip to another province and gotten themselves new ex parte orders and the other parent starts pretty much at square one. It is good to get along with the ex. But a good custody order can save you time, money, aggravation.

Just some suggestions.


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## FJAG (29 Mar 2015)

Alberta Bound said:
			
		

> A most important part is to do some research and get a lawyer who is well regarded in family law - custody issues. Every consult with a lawyer, all pre court prep, every court appearence by the lawyer (or their agent) costs YOU. But if you get a less expensive lawyer who is not very experienced in family law - child custody issues it ultimately will cost you a lot more. The more experienced lawyer will shepherd your issues through the process efficiently and save you from having to go back to court again and again.
> 
> The newer lawyer or local generalist who does a bit of wills, real estate, criminal, family, etc may miss problems / issues and ultimately cause you to go back to court over and over again. I have seen this quite often.
> 
> ...



Bang on until the second last para.

Orders respecting children (whether made under the Divorce Act or under provincial family law) are made by provincial courts and have full effect within the province. In circumstances where the children are moved to another province or even country, there are a number of laws which have the purpose of giving substantial effect to the original court order. In the end, each court has the power to determine what is in the best interest of the child which resides within its geographic jurisdiction but those courts do give great deference to the orders of other courts that have previously examined and ruled on the issue but also giving due consideration to the fact that the move itself might have created a change in circumstances justifying a revised order.

 :cheers:


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## mariomike (29 Mar 2015)

Alberta Bound said:
			
		

> A most important part is to do some research and get a lawyer who is well regarded in family law - custody issues. Every consult with a lawyer, all pre court prep, every court appearence by the lawyer (or their agent) costs YOU. But if you get a less expensive lawyer who is not very experienced in family law - child custody issues it ultimately will cost you a lot more. The more experienced lawyer will shepherd your issues through the process efficiently and save you from having to go back to court again and again.
> 
> The newer lawyer or local generalist who does a bit of wills, real estate, criminal, family, etc may miss problems / issues and ultimately cause you to go back to court over and over again. I have seen this quite often.
> 
> ...



See also,

Child Custody & The CF
http://army.ca/forums/threads/85126.50

Joint Custody and Postings  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/93315.0/nowap.html


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## Alberta Bound (29 Mar 2015)

FJAG

Fair enough the last part about the orders being valid only in their originating province was over simplified. I was simply hoping to make the point that people should not expect that if their ex departs to another location that they should automatically expect the parenting / custody orders to stay as they are. 

I have seen orders that have been recently issued by one court with effect dates being several years down the road and a court in a "new" province conducting an ex parte hearing with only the one parent's input (perspective, wishes, desires, witnesses, friends) and the new court making provisions in their order often directly opposite to the original order. In effect leaving 2 valid orders from different provinces and a tug of war by the parents. 

I probably have less faith in Judges / Justices taking notice of other courts rulings unless binding upon them having seen many strange things added by the courts. My favourites are the non attendance clauses at the ex's residence, but then the court specifies the residence as a post box #, no contact orders for the parties unless it is to discuss their marriage or the children, and my favourite is the police enforcement clause that "requests police to assist if a party breaches the order, unless no actual breach occurred". 

The lesson from all this is whomever really needs custody advise. Get it from a good lawyer and make sure they are aware of all possible circumstances. 

Hoping no one needs any of this advise.


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## FJAG (29 Mar 2015)

Alberta Bound

I take your point but there are some fundamental issues in what you are saying.

Firstly, the issue is not so much the court as the residential move. When parents move farther apart then what was contemplated in the initial order, the physical separation causes a fundamental change in the way that custody and access functions. Distance is what causes the problem. Quite frequently the order will have to change simply because the old order is no longer practical.

Secondly, ex parte hearings are an unusual proceeding which the courts only resort to in the event of an emergency situation. In every case where an ex parte order is made it is only temporary and there is a requirement to have another hearing where all parties are allowed to participate and have their say. It may be difficult for a party in Ontario to participate in a hearing in BC, but the opportunity will be there. Courts will never deny a parent the right to participate in the final hearing. One caution here. The longer that an ex parte order remains in place before the final hearing, the more likely it is that the terms of the ex parte order will become a new status quo making it more difficult to vary the terms in the final order. 

Lastly, family law cases, and especially custody issues, are some of the most difficult that courts face. Frequently, the emotions involved are very high and there are many "horror stories" that are told by the "losing" parent that greatly exaggerate the real reason behind why the order was worded the way it was. One thing to remember as well is that the wording in most court orders is pretty standard. In Manitoba (where I practised) there has been a project in place since 1998 called the "Automated Family Court Order Project" which mandates the wording to be used in a family court order. Here is the standard peace officer's clause:

"All sheriffs, deputy sheriffs, constables and other peace officers within
Manitoba shall do all such acts as may be necessary to enforce
paragraph(s) {specify paragraph number(s) for no contact or
communication, prohibition and other clauses to be enforced} of this
Order. For such purposes they, and each of them, are given full power
and authority to enter upon any lands and premises whatsoever to
enforce those terms;"

You'll have to agree that this is a much better clause than the one you cite. It's not a request; it specifically identifies which parts of the order it relates to; and it immediately gives them powers to act.

My issue with some of what you say is that we can always find an example of something (whether factual or just an anecdote) that makes the courts look bad. The real fact is that courts do not work arbitrarily; they have rules and procedures that are designed to provide as fair a hearing and outcome for everyone as possible. 

I used to have a saying which is that "when it comes to contested litigation, less than half the clients will be satisfied".  The clients that "lost" will be unhappy because they lost. The parties that "won" will be unhappy because, in their eyes, the outcome was a "slam dunk from day one" and they're pissed because it took so long and was so expensive to get there.

One thing we both agree with is that it's no place for amateurs. If you are the non-custodial parent in one of these situations, get a lawyer who practices extensively in the field of family law and get him/her involved right away. Time is not your friend.

 :cheers:


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## opcougar (10 Apr 2015)

Interesting thread this one, and a lot of the advice given here is worth its weight in gold to you OP! I am not a Lawyer at all, specifically when it comes to family law. Note: Not all Lawyers are skilled in the area of family law, so don't just listen to any Lawyer!!!

However, what I do have going for me, is first hand knowledge and experience of the family law wranglings. It was me who ended my marriage, and there was a toddler son cut in between all this. Mediation was initiated by me, but ex wanted everything her way, as opposed to being realistic as to what she is entitled to. I initially started the paper work mysef i.e. I downloaded the forms, filled them in and served her on my bday (So I won't forget). It was only then she realized that I wasn't kidding and don't like playing games.

She had 30days to respond, and got herself a lawyer who responded to me on day 29 agreeing to most of the things I asked for all along which included primarily 50-50 of our child, which she didn't want before, and instead wanted me to be EOW (every other weekend). She came back with a counter of Spousal support (9 yr marriage), CS (which I was going to pay an offset amount of anyway), half of my small pension, and child support for her teenage daughter from before (which she is already getting money for). I refused to pay the latter because I wasn't called dad, never went to school stuff and she wasn't on my MPRR.

Anyway, I hired a lawyer up until the case conference stage costing a small fortune for retainer and documentation, before I left the lawyer go and started doing my own work i.e self representing. If you are the type that liek to read / research and can document in a chronological order, it is possible. I also went on the site called CANLII to read up on case precedent in Canada and spefically Ontario and used those that related to me, to make my case in every documentation I responded to / served as the applicant.

Long story short...nobody wins during the divorce except the scummy lawyers. The outcome of my case was that I got my primary request (our son) 50-50, got to keep my pension as she was hiding her and Judge got upset over that. Note we never made it to trial, but were scheduled to start on teh day the final order was made by mutual agreement to other items on the list like sale of the house, parenting schedule, no payment of CS that isn't my kid, her dropping spousal support claim, me taking on some debt, consent to divorce, etc. What was suppose to be a 2 day trial never happened, and instead got resolved in 5hrs via an in-house duty counsel.

I am now farmiliar with family law to the point that am able to better advice people who are oblivious to the who system i.e. serving papers, going in front of a judge, decorum, language, appearance, how to answer, and realizing which battles to fight and which ones are irrelevant.

OP...you have to ask yourself, and I recently told a subordinate this...are you really in a state of looking after a kid(s), and still going through training and doing your day job? If the answer is NO, then it's a no-brainer that the kids best interest should take precedence i.e. what is best for them in a stable way, until you are able to be 100% available to them. Do not look at it from a Child support perspective, you are going to pay it regardless if you are the highest earner. Being a single parent holding down a full-time job and paying offset child support is no fun. A typical week involves skating, scouts, gymnastic, karate and of course school and homework.

It's because of this that most men and some women bail, letting the other parent take care of all this because of the work involved for 1 kid. Imagine if it's 2, 3 or more. So again, be true with yourself and think it through before you waste money on lawyers, money that could have been spent on yourself and the kid(s). You can always go back to court at a later date to ask for increase in the access / parenting time e.g 2 overnights during the week in addition to your every other weekend as a starter.

The rule is simple, anything under 40% access time means you have to pay full table amount child support. This is one reason why some vindictive women like having sole custody i.e. more money for them and being able to claim the kids as dependents come tax time. Just in case you haven't see it, here is the ONTARIO child support table amount

http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/fl-df/child-enfant/fcsg-lfpae/2006/tbl1_4/on_b.pdf

Alberta

http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/fl-df/child-enfant/fcsg-lfpae/2006/tbl1_4/alta_b.pdf

Clearly a lot of people are oblivious to this like I was, but am glad I only have 1 kid as opposed to 2 or more with the money am paying someone else every month. Looking forward to when kid is old enough to know and payment can stop funding another person's personal shopping.

If you don't show up to your court dates, it's only a matter of time before you piss a Judge off, and they can easily grant to the other party what they are requesting in their response / claim. This actually happens more than you think, then there is cost which you could be on the hook for.

In most cases, the person that "lost" is dinged with costs at the end when a Judge orders parties to within certain days send in their substantiation. This is why people always ask for cost, in order not to be left with a huge legal bill.

As you can probably tell by now, I am passionate about this subject matter, and always willing to help out. I dispise people using kids as pawn for their own selfish agenda, and feeling entitled to stuff "just because". First order for me was getting myself nipped, and yes am adamant that no more marriage for me or anyone that earns less than 80% of what I do. You might think it's ridiculous, but think about how family works, and you will see the bias in place and the game of tag that takes place as it relates to spousal support etc. Who wants to be paying child support and indefinite alimony, even when your ex is shacking up with someone else and living better than you do??????

I can't for the life of me understanding why some guys do it twice, thrice etc. Lesson learned folks, fool me once and all that. I am loving just companisonship(s) as it is now, and getting laid more than when I was married. LOL

Good luck and give all this a thought before making any irrational decision.





			
				FJAG said:
			
		

> Alberta Bound
> 
> I take your point but there are some fundamental issues in what you are saying.
> 
> ...


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