# Forced to pay / belong to a mess [Merged]



## KnuckleHead (30 Mar 2006)

Hello everybody, I am new here and this is my first post.  I am sure this topic has come up before, sorry if it has.

Anyways, I have been searching the CFAO's to find out if  a member has to pay for a mess dinner.  The mess dinner is a parade and all MUST attend, so how can they make us pay for it?

Great site and thanks for any help.


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## aesop081 (30 Mar 2006)

KnuckleHead said:
			
		

> Hello everybody, I am new here and this is my first post.  I am sure this topic has come up before, sorry if it has.
> 
> Anyways, I have been searching the CFAO's to find out if  a member has to pay for a mess dinner.  The mess dinner is a parade and all MUST attend, so how can they make us pay for it?
> 
> Great site and thanks for any help.



Welcome to the way things work.......pay the bill, have a nice dinner,

Most units have things that need to be done while people are at the mess dinner....usualy they are unpleasant jobs............your choice  ;D


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## Inch (30 Mar 2006)

Welcome to life as an officer. Mess kit must also be purchased within 6 months of getting your commission, according to the CF Dress Instructions, and yes, you have to pay for it yourself.


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## KnuckleHead (30 Mar 2006)

I had to buy a white shirt and bow tie last night, this dinner has set me back $70 so far.  As for the meal, I will not be eating it, I have good food at home.


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## KnuckleHead (30 Mar 2006)

aesop081 said:
			
		

> Welcome to the way things work.......pay the bill, have a nice dinner,
> 
> Most units have things that need to be done while people are at the mess dinner....usualy they are unpleasant jobs............your choice  ;D



I should have mentioned the dinner is at 1930 tonight, there is no getting out.


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## DG-41 (30 Mar 2006)

Mess dinners, as a subbie, are an opportunity to have a lot of fun, and to see and interact with your superiors in a social context.

They are to be celebrated, not avoided.

Pay your money, suck it up, and have a good time.

DG


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## scoutfinch (30 Mar 2006)

KnuckleHead said:
			
		

> I had to buy a white shirt and bow tie last night, this dinner has set me back $70 so far.  As for the meal, I will not be eating it, I have good food at home.



My experiences with mixed dining ins (a mess dinner with the missus as far as I understand the distinction!) indicates that you have gotten off easy if it only has cost you $70!!! ;D

I am not diminishing the hit on your pockey book.  $70 is $70 and it sucks if you didn't want to spend it.  Just keep in mind that you won't have to pay for the white shirt and bow tie for the next one!  Small consolation, I know and I have no doubt you won't be eager for the next one to arrive either.

In any event, put on the bib and tucker and have a good time.  It's not like you have a choice about going... and don't forget that any idiot can be miserable!


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## 043 (30 Mar 2006)

KnuckleHead said:
			
		

> I should have mentioned the dinner is at 1930 tonight, there is no getting out.



It's up to you whether or not you want to eat it but you will stay have to pay for it.

Go there, enjoy yourself and have a good time. Enjoy the traditions!


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## KnuckleHead (30 Mar 2006)

$70 is not much, however, my wife and I are expecting our first baby in a couple months, so that $70 could be spent on baby stuff, not a new shirt for me.  

They can make me go but they cannot make me enjoy it.


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## aesop081 (30 Mar 2006)

KnuckleHead said:
			
		

> I had to buy a white shirt and bow tie last night, this dinner has set me back $70 so far.  *As for the meal, I will not be eating it, I have good food at home*.



Migh as well eat it as you have already  paied for it.  you are just going to end up looking like some pig-headed bonehaed who's doing it out of spite.  We have very few traditions that are exercise on a regular basis and the mess dinner is one of them.  I have always had a good time at them.  



			
				KnuckleHead said:
			
		

> $70 is not much, however, my wife and I are expecting our first baby in a couple months, so that $70 could be spent on baby stuff, not a new shirt for me.



That i can understand.



> They can make me go but they cannot make me enjoy it.



Well, look at it this way, you shelled out money and you are going to be there, might as well have a good time.


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## Teddy Ruxpin (30 Mar 2006)

> I had to buy a white shirt and bow tie last night, this dinner has set me back $70 so far.  As for the meal, I will not be eating it, I have good food at home.



If you're throwing your teddy bear (heh) into the corner over buying a shirt and tie, you'll be ripping its arms off when you go to buy mess kit - as you will.  Welcome to the Canadian Forces, sunshine - attendance at mess dinners are a century(+)-old tradition that comes with being an officer (or senior NCO, for that matter).

My advice?  If your statements over something as simple as a dinner reflect your overall attitude, it speaks very poorly of your future as a commissioned officer.  Suck it up, carry on and (as others have said) be thankful that you're getting off easy cost-wise.  Otherwise, I'm sure you know where the exit door is.


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## scoutfinch (30 Mar 2006)

KnuckleHead said:
			
		

> $70 is not much, however, my wife and I are expecting our first baby in a couple months, so that $70 could be spent on baby stuff, not a new shirt for me.
> 
> They can make me go but they cannot make me enjoy it.



$70 is a lot of money!  I guess what I was trying to say, in my less than deft fashion -- was that it is only going to get worse... but atleast for next time you will already have the shirt and bow tie!

Hell, with a baby coming there are TONS of places that you could put $70... doesn't mean you can't have a little fun, though.


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## GINge! (30 Mar 2006)

KnuckleHead said:
			
		

> They can make me go but they cannot make me enjoy it.



Wow. Keep that attitude up & you will find a hard time fitting in.


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## Kat Stevens (30 Mar 2006)

KnuckleHead said:
			
		

> $70 is not much, however, my wife and I are expecting our first baby in a couple months, so that $70 could be spent on baby stuff, not a new shirt for me.
> 
> They can make me go but they cannot make me enjoy it.



Mr Stick, meet Mr Mud... Mud, meet Mr Stick.  Look on the bright side, at least you're sitting down eating it, not running yer arse off serving it...Hey, there's a thread topic in that somewhere.... >


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## monika (30 Mar 2006)

$70.00 can be a lot of money to fork over but it's cheaper than a new career.


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## CdnArtyWife (30 Mar 2006)

Just make sure you hit the bathroom before the last pipe into the dining area...you won't be able to go without ridicule after that.

Enjoy the endless glasses of wine...

And as a subby, you will be expected to help "pollish off" the port...so consider yourself warned.

You will hate your first couple of mess dinners, especially if you are still not fully trained as you will feel out of place and only their to help subsidize the cost for the other more senior officers. Such is life in the CF.

I have witnessed my husband transform from the reluctant subby who hates mess dinners to one who doesn't mind going (it took four years to get to that point) and eventually he will move to the "kinda liking it" category.

Best of luck...

Have a glass of wine for me!

PS>And trust me, I know where you are coming from on this one. Hubby and I were expected to attend a Regimental Ball just four weeks after the birth of my daughter. I still had stitches from the C-Section, and couldn't find a "lactating babysitter", that night I happened to come down with the worst migrane ever. Hubby didn't go, but we still had to pay for it...and he got his dick slapped as well...all in all, not worth the effort of not going or kicking up a fuss.


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## Inch (30 Mar 2006)

70 bucks for a shirt and bow tie that will last you the next 10 years is expensive? Me thinks not. Unless of course you find a way to destroy that shirt, but destroying shirts at mess dinners means that you were probably having fun, something you don't sound too interested in having.

I've got to go get a new shirt today for the RCAF dinner tomorrow night. This is will be my third shirt because of two wicked mess dinners that I attended, one was my wings grad and the other was back in Nov. On the bright side, I have buddies that are on their 2nd or 3rd pair of pants after the knees were worn out from commando missions under the tables.


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## KnuckleHead (30 Mar 2006)

I am not totally bent out of shape over this.  The military has been good to me, mostly.  

I am not an officer either, maybe I sounded like one but I am a NCM.


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## Bograt (30 Mar 2006)

Inch,

I vaguely recall that November mess diner. I was wondering if you were able to wash the twigs and leaves out.


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## KnuckleHead (30 Mar 2006)

Bograt said:
			
		

> Inch,
> 
> I vaguely recall that November mess diner. I was wondering if you were able to wash the twigs and leaves out.



That sounds like a fun mess dinner.


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## Bograt (30 Mar 2006)

I don't remember. Anyone have the address to Sikorski Helicopters? I need to send a thank you card.


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## Inch (30 Mar 2006)

Bograt said:
			
		

> Inch,
> 
> I vaguely recall that November mess diner. I was wondering if you were able to wash the twigs and leaves out.



Yep, got 'em all out, cleaned and pressed to do it all again! Shirt suffered "A" Category damage though.  ;D


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## Bograt (30 Mar 2006)

You have remained nameless, but I have shared that story many of times with friends.


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## AirForceWife (30 Mar 2006)

KnuckleHead said:
			
		

> $70 is not much, however, my wife and I are expecting our first baby in a couple months, so that $70 could be spent on baby stuff, not a new shirt for me.



We JUST had our first baby,  and my husband had to buy a mess kit, and pay for the mess meal as well x2 (for me as well, plus my ball gown). Thats right when he got his comission as a 2LT so the pay wasnt that high.  That was $800 in one month. No one in the military will give you pity that just because a baby is on the way, you dont have to pay.   If you dont want to eat, your choice.   I know I wouldnt let the food I paid for go to waste and just eat at home.   And the attitude about them not being able to force you to have a good time? Thats a bit childish imo


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## KnuckleHead (30 Mar 2006)

I am not looking for pity, I am just saying that money could be spent better.


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## scoutfinch (30 Mar 2006)

Tarutig said:
			
		

> We JUST had our first baby,  and my husband had to buy a mess kit, and pay for the mess meal as well x2 (for me as well, plus my ball gown). Thats right when he got his comission as a 2LT so the pay wasnt that high.  That was $800 in one month.



Ahhh yes...  I remember those days!  It's almost as bad as the mess bill for the month when they get promoted to LT and have to ring the bell at happy hour!  Now that was almost enough to break the bank!


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## plattypuss (30 Mar 2006)

Knucklehead - There may be some hope, but I doubt it, as you are not on ration strength.  Please read the following DCBA instruction on reimbursement for mess dinners (if you are on TD or ration strength)

http://hr.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/dgcb/dcba/engraph/mess_dinn_e.asp?sidesection=2&sidecat=7

Sorry I don't have time to ensure a proper link, just cut and paste the address.


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## SprCForr (30 Mar 2006)

A white shirt and bowtie cost $70?   

For those who need one and have access to Clothing Stores - Navy DEU White Shirt. I've been out a few years now but I don't think the prices have risen much. Chances are it's of better quality.


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## ACS_Tech (30 Mar 2006)

First of all, I think he's saying the cost of the dinner, plus shirt and tie, is $70.  Second, I know in Trenton at least, they don't offer cash sales at clothing stores anymore and when I tried asking for a navy dress shirt a couple of years ago, they wouldn't let me because I wasn't entitled to purchase it since I'm Air Force.  Dunno if this is wrong or not, just my experience.

Anyway, for those going to the Air Force Mess Dinner tonight, have fun.  I'm going to enjoy the booze, decent meal and chumming around myself... ;D


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## Gunnar (30 Mar 2006)

The $70 is an investment in your future career.  It is your chance to show the higher ups (and your troops) that you're "one of the boys", that you'll play the game, and that you belong.  It's an enforced social occasion where you see and be seen, where you bond with the people your life may depend upon one day.  If they only know you as a set of stripes, then they may not be too motivated to save your butt when it really counts.

See how many people who rank above you are there.  You ever want to get to that level, you play that game.  Plus, who knows...if you give it a chance, you might actually like it.  If you don't, then put on an appearance, drink in moderation, and leave as soon as custom and manners will permit you to do so.

Just remember, you don't have to be everyone's friend, but you can be a good comrade to all.


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## KnuckleHead (31 Mar 2006)

Okay, I went to the mess dinner, it wasn't a total loss, watching drunk people get up and walk out to the bathroom and the Vice PMC flipping out was funny.

Thanks plattypuss.


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## ACS_Tech (31 Mar 2006)

The best part for me will be going into work on Monday and finding out what sort of punishment my boss is getting for acting like an @$$ last night :rofl:  That was money well spent for me...Man, I have never found something so funny and embarassing at the same time.  Poor guy.

For future reference to everyone else, liping off to the Command CWO is not universally accepted as a career-boosting move.


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## aesop081 (31 Mar 2006)

ACS_Tech said:
			
		

> The best part for me will be going into work on Monday and finding out what sort of punishment my boss is getting for acting like an @$$ last night :rofl:  That was money well spent for me...Man, I have never found something so funny and embarassing at the same time.  Poor guy.
> 
> For future reference to everyone else, *liping off to the Command CWO is not universally accepted as a career-boosting move.*



So THATS where i went wrong  ;D


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## Bo (3 Apr 2006)

My first mes dinner's coming up this week. I dished out $800 for my mess kit+accessories and even though I look like a hotel bellhop/figure skater, I think it'll be a good time.

Seriously though, $800 can get you some pimpin outfits


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## GO!!! (3 Apr 2006)

Bo, is this the "New Air Force" idea of mess dress!?

I can't wait to see the female version!


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## Sapper6 (3 Apr 2006)

KnuckleHead said:
			
		

> Hello everybody, I am new here and this is my first post.  I am sure this topic has come up before, sorry if it has.
> 
> Anyways, I have been searching the CFAO's to find out if  a member has to pay for a mess dinner.  The mess dinner is a parade and all MUST attend, so how can they make us pay for it?
> 
> Great site and thanks for any help.



Knucklehead,

Ref:  The Canadian Military Engineers Manual A-JS-007-003/JD-001 dated 9 Feb 1993

Although a little dated, the above ref is used by all officers and Sr NCOs in the Canadian Military Engineers as a guide on a multitude of subjects.  One of which covers mess dinners.  I thought the following quote would help in this discussion:

*"Much of military life is still governed by what are known as customs of the service.  These largely unwritten rules are as effective and binding as written rules.  The rules surrounding mess dinners are an example of customs of the service.  Compulsory attendance and payment have always been considered customs of the service and are still very much so.  They are an implied part of the commitment as a member of the CME."*

I have found that the above explanation works for me.  I truly hope we don't get into a unionized Army like the Netherlands where every right and obligation of the soldier must be spelled out and strictly followed, often hindering spontaneity or cohesion.  I'm not talking abusing soldiers here, I'm talking about historical protocol that actually does what it intends to do - ie. 'afford the opportunity for seniors and juniors to meet on a friendly, but formal, occasion.' 

Sounds like building cohesion to me.  $60 twice a year (on average) is a small price to pay to really know the guy who is covering your 6, or 12, or 3 o'clock.

Sapper 6.


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## 1feral1 (3 Apr 2006)

At the ANZAC SGTs' Mess here in Brisbane, our fees are $17.50AUD per month for us Regulars, (and Reservists about $5AUD per month), and this over time does subsidise  mess dinners with costs of around $30-$40AUD per person (includes all the grog one can swallow and more). We also have a weekly morning teas with hot pies and sausage rolls and other things, all at the garrison level, and are a 'must attend'. This is free, but at the end of the day, we are paying for this service with our fees. These fees are tax deductable in Australia.

Cheers,

Wes


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## Bigbird (6 Aug 2006)

KnuckleHead said:
			
		

> I had to buy a white shirt and bow tie last night, this dinner has set me back $70 so far.  As for the meal, I will not be eating it, I have good food at home.



Hey, YOU paid for it...YOU may as well eat it!


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## 17thRecceSgt (6 Aug 2006)

Mess dinners are usually a hoot to me, and well worth the $$ especially if I am slated on the duty list in the near future


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## Fishbone Jones (6 Aug 2006)

Bigbird said:
			
		

> Hey, YOU paid for it...YOU may as well eat it!



Or leave it for us that are sitting near you. We've been known to accomodate picky eaters by helping them out. YOU pay for it, WE'LL eat it for you. How's that?


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## navymich (6 Aug 2006)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Or leave it for us that are sitting near you. We've been known to accomodate picky eaters by helping them out. YOU pay for it, WE'LL eat it for you. How's that?


On top of that, if you don't drink, don't you DARE hold your hand over your wine glass when they go around filling them up.  I, er, I mean, someone will gladly take care of emptying those glasses for you too.  ;D


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## 17thRecceSgt (6 Aug 2006)

navymich said:
			
		

> On top of that, if you don't drink, don't you DARE hold your hand over your wine glass when they go around filling them up.  I, er, I mean, someone will gladly take care of emptying those glasses for you too.  ;D



Especially if the Head Wine Stewart is an acquaintance (like say a Regimental Association Mess Dinner I was at...I think my blood was 1 part blood, 2 parts white wine).   8)


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## mcchartman (7 Aug 2006)

navymich said:
			
		

> On top of that, if you don't drink, don't you DARE hold your hand over your wine glass when they go around filling them up.  I, er, I mean, someone will gladly take care of emptying those glasses for you too.  ;D



Mmm... I should keep that in mind. I guess I could make a whole lot of friends this way...


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## paracowboy (7 Aug 2006)

I agree, paying to attend a function that bores the crap out of me is dumb. But then, a lot of things we do in the CF is dumb. So, I see it as one of those things I have to put up with, in order to do the things I enjoy. F'r instance: I love jumping out of airplanes, but I hate doing refreshers.


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## GO!!! (8 Aug 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> I agree, paying to attend a function that bores the crap out of me is dumb. But then, a lot of things we do in the CF is dumb. So, I see it as one of those things I have to put up with, in order to do the things I enjoy. F'r instance: I love jumping out of airplanes, but I hate doing refreshers.



+1

Also, to me  it seems like one of those things where you might win the battle, but not the war.


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## bison33 (31 Aug 2006)

ahhh........the bag licker's ball...I mean mess dinners....as a young gunner, I recall serving the odd officer's mess dinner and what a bunch of children......but usually a unit mess dinner is good. We had a Sqn mess dinner whn I was in 435 years ago, the dress was clean coveralls with shirt and bowtie for groundcrew and flying suits with shirt and bowtie for aircrew. What a blast! And of course a huge food fight ensued. It cost us about  $1500 (probably more) for the cleaning bill for the carpets etc. And base clean-up also... The best mess dinner I've been to. ;D   And usually the Jr ranks(for you young folks) christmas dinners are (were in the day anyways) a fun time.


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## exercist (5 Sep 2006)

Not getting a lot of sympathy here, are we? 

If the recruiters somewhere along the line failed to mention the social obligations of the job, I suppose you can pin it on them, if it makes you feel better. Meanwhile, the profession of arms is a profession - and most other professions include similar obligations, whether it be professional associations, fees, conferences, dinners, robes or whatever. Relax, be happy.

Your thoughts for your future child are commendable, but I do hope that s/he learns to play better with the other children.


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## orange.paint (5 Sep 2006)

Better attending then sitting outside with a tank being respectful to drunken assholes bosses.I personally don't like functions like that myself,as I'm not too fond of drunken idiots you cant punch.But as a officer or snr NCO its your responsibility to make sure traditions are upheld.If everyone had your attitude about these functions who knows what traditions would be lost by the time your retired.

Why must people try to stand out in this army!!
"I'm not eating it".....suck it up buttercup! Go to any restaurants in town and your paying 50 dollars for any sensible meal (plus gratuity) anyway.

my solution(I always try to offer at least one)
Your annoying attitude will not change the fact you will have to attend other mess functions and buy appropriate mess attire.As a responsible family man, place aside 25 or so dollars a pay and make an allotment for these sort of things.It all boils down to poor attitude and planning on your part.


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## geo (5 Sep 2006)

There is a CFAO about it being mandatory to be a member of a mess and having to pay mess dues.
Mess dinners are part of the culture and traditions of your unit...... enjoy.
I have been the member of a few units where the Junior ranks have organized their own Mess dinners.... and members have had no problem paying up their $$$.

As recourse not to participate in a mess dinner..... 
- offer to the CO to be Duty officer.
- volunteer for a task away from the unit on the day of the mess dinner

otherwise - you are out of luck my friend.


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## MARS2INF (10 Sep 2006)

Mess dinner fees are tax deductible too... as is dry cleaning and a few other "business expenses" that we are "required" to do as part of our job.


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## geo (10 Sep 2006)

Uhhh.... dry cleaning & haircuts are NOT tax deductible as a separate item on your tax return.  They are all part of the basic personal amount under "federal non-refundable tax credits".  
(Any "Joe" who works in an office and has to wear a suit needs to have it dry cleaned - it ain't deductible for him either)


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## Gunner (10 Sep 2006)

MARS2INF said:
			
		

> Mess dinner fees are tax deductible too... as is dry cleaning and a few other "business expenses" that we are "required" to do as part of our job.



I hope you are being facetious because you are dead wrong.  Mess Dues, Mess Dinners, Haircuts, dry cleaning, etc are *not* tax deductable.


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## George Wallace (10 Sep 2006)

MARS2INF said:
			
		

> Mess dinner fees are tax deductible too... as is dry cleaning and a few other "business expenses" that we are "required" to do as part of our job.



I'd (along with everyone else here) like to see some DOCUMENTATION on all of those claims made in your statement; to include the appropriate Revenue Canada rules and Regulations on these matters.


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## George Wallace (10 Sep 2006)

MARS2INF 

Just noticed another post of yours in another topic, (Now I have to go through all your posts.) and you have given advice there that you are way out to lunch on and totally out of your Lanes.  If you don't know the answer, DO NOT make one up.  It may be time for you to close your mouth/stop typing and listen.


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## Spartan (10 Sep 2006)

Gunner said:
			
		

> I hope you are being facetious because you are dead wrong.  Mess Dues, Mess Dinners, Haircuts, dry cleaning, etc are *not* tax deductable.


I remember reading on these forums from members with a few years in saying that Mess Dues are akin to Union Dues therefore tax deductible / fall under other deductions from taxable income?


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## MARS2INF (10 Sep 2006)

Alright, here goes...

1) Line 9270 of Form T4044
   - Enter in the value of receipts for miscellaneous costs that are incurred as a result of earning your primary income. THAT value gets placed on:
2) Line 229 of the T1 General
   - Continue filling form as per normal, and see the (small) change in the final value.

Although the overall delta isn't significant, it's money in the bank.

Further to that:

"You can deduct certain expenses (including any GST/HST) you paid to earn employment income. You can claim the expenses only if your employment contract required you to pay them, and either you did not receive an allowance for the expenses, or the allowance you received is included in your income."

That said, when ordered to have items dry cleaned, ordered to attend certain functions, then am I not required to pay for them, as referenced above?


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## SeaKingTacco (10 Sep 2006)

Good Luck on your next audit, MARS2INF, you are going to need it...


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## geo (10 Sep 2006)

MARS2INF said:
			
		

> Alright, here goes...
> 1) Line 9270 of Form T4044
> - Enter in the value of receipts for miscellaneous costs that are incurred as a result of earning your primary income. THAT value gets placed on:
> 2) Line 229 of the T1 General
> ...


good luck on your next tax audit..... it ain't going to be pretty.

When they refer to expenses made to earn employment income, they are refering to self employed types.... which we aren't.
From someone who thought the same way as you - till his buddy got audited .....
Don't say you haven't been warned.


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## Gunner (10 Sep 2006)

Spartan said:
			
		

> I remember reading on these forums from members with a few years in saying that Mess Dues are akin to Union Dues therefore tax deductible / fall under other deductions from taxable income?



Spartan, no it is not akin to paying union dues.  I'm sure some brighter than me can give you the exact answer but in general, union dues are deemed a mandatory requirement to belong to a professional and self regulating organization.  Nurses, doctor's, trades people can claim their dues as they must belong to the organization in order to be certified by the provinical regulatory body.  For example, a nurse cannot work unless she/he are licensed in the province in which they work.  

Even though mess dues are mandatory (by CFAO), they are not mandatory in a professional manner.


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## geo (10 Sep 2006)

Gunner.... I know what you're saying but..... to me - it still doesn't make sense.
If it is mandatory, then it should be (though it isn't)


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## ZipperHead (10 Sep 2006)

I was auditted for trying to pull this stuff (based on the misguided advice of one of my buddies, who as it turns out had never done it, but I suspect thought it would be humourous to see who would follow his weak advice). Guess what?? I had the pleasure of paying back about $200 to the good old CCRA (Revenue Canada at the time, I believe).

There is, I believe, an area where you can claim "Military Grooming" as an acceptable expense, but receipts must be provided, for a maximum of $200, IIRC. I think that is what my buddy was goin on about originally, but not too many people keep receipts for cans of Kiwi polish, Brasso, etc. Try it at your own peril, MARS2INF. I suggest asking H&R Block if it's good to go, as they will back you in an audit, if I'm not mistaken. If they won't back you, it definitely doesn't pass the smell test.

BTW, the "audit" that I went through wasn't as painful as I had been led to believe by popular culture (TV, movies). They phoned me, enquired about what it was that I thought entitled me to claim this expense, asked for receipts (which, of course, I didn't have, as I am a dumbass), and then info'ed me how much I had to pay back to the Man. Pretty painless, though a little humbling.

Al


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## Journeyman (10 Sep 2006)

Allan Luomala said:
			
		

> *BTW, the "audit" that I went through wasn't as painful as I had been led to believe by popular culture*



When I got out of the RegF and went back to school, it apparently triggered some CCRA Audit Alarms - - "last year your income was big bucks, and this year it's pennies; you're _clearly_ not claiming everything and trying to defraud the Governor General of her party funds - - AUDIT!!"

I've been audited every year since. It's not painful, per se, (like watching an Adam Sandler film-o-thon, or rubbing salt & vinegar chips into a recent vasectomy)......but it IS a pain in the butt. I now keep all receipts (organization is _not_ a natural strength of mine), and get grown-up assistance doing taxes each year.

So, if you you can avoid getting on their audit list (say...by not trying to claim a freakin' Mess Dinner), I'd do so.


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## TMM (10 Sep 2006)

Allan Luomala said:
			
		

> I suggest asking H&R Block if it's good to go, as they will back you in an audit, if I'm not mistaken.



I used to work for Block and another tax firm; that was years ago but don't attempt to write off your mess dinners! All of us workers at some point or another have to shell out of pocket for work related social activities and they are not deductible.

H&R Block will only back you up if they did the return.


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## IN HOC SIGNO (10 Sep 2006)

I had a buddy claimed his mess kit as a business expense....he got slapped with an audit and it didn't work...he tried to claim his Mess dues too and that also did not work....Revenue Canada is all over this and has been for years...but by all means if this generation has to learn things by experience....GO FOR IT!

As far as knucklehead and his objections to the traditions of this institution go....I think they're looking for workers out in Alberta in just about every field you could think of....why don't you try there...those are jobs...this isn't! :


----------



## Meridian (11 Sep 2006)

Straight from CRA itself:

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tax/individuals/topics/income-tax/return/completing/deductions/lines206-236/229/menu-e.html




> Note
> Most employees cannot claim employment expenses. You cannot deduct the cost of travel to and from work, or other expenses, such as most tools and clothing.



See the link for more in-depth discussions of where you can claim it.   For example, travel can be claimed where you are required to travel away from your normal place of work (and you are not compensated for it).  Example, if you work for a consulting firm with head office a (where you are normally located, or where your Paystubs have the office address),  and you have to go to various client offices in the city, you can claim those costs, unless your employer compensates you for them (and thus claims it themselves).

I note there is no mention of uniforms, etc, but I didn't look that far. I would expect that Mess Kit would fall under a socially-required thing, though Im sure you could argue through an audit appeal that you were required to purchase it and depending on rank you are required to attend the social functions for work purposes.  Wouldn't be a fun fight though.


Oh, and you will always automatically lose if you do not have receipts, even if your reasoning is sound.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (11 Sep 2006)

I have been through this both personally and representing clients.



> ..."You can deduct certain expenses (including any GST/HST) you paid to earn employment income. You can claim the expenses only if your employment contract required you to pay them, and either you did not receive an allowance for the expenses, or the allowance you received is included in your income."
> 
> That said, when ordered to have items dry cleaned, ordered to attend certain functions, then am I not required to pay for them, as referenced above?


"Most employees cannot claim employment expenses."  (from CRA website)

To claim employment expenses your employer must complete Form T2200 Declaration of Conditions of Employment – Your employer must now complete the entire T2200 (both Part A and Part B) and then give you a copy for your records. For more information, http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pbg/tf/t2200/README.html

Now, try to get someone in the CF with the authority to do so.  (or state in writing that you are required to incur these as employment expenses but they refuse to complete form T2200)



> Mess Dues are akin to Union Dues



No they are not ...Union dues are union dues.   And we all would b**** like hell if the CF was a union shop.

Professional membership dues are professional membership dues...
"a) they are annual dues (in contrast with entrance fees) necessary to maintain professional status,
(b) the amount claimed is paid in the taxation year and the employee is not reimbursed or entitled to be reimbursed, and
(c) the professional status is recognized by a Canadian, provincial, or foreign statute."



> If it is mandatory, then it should be (though it isn't)



I agree, but you may have a struggle to convince CRA of your opinion.  CRA's job is to interpret and enforce the Income Tax Act and its ensuing regulations, not the National Defense Act.  I remember seeing somewhere on a DND/CF page a statement to the effect that taxation is a personal matter between the member and the CRA but they also include a warning against trying to cheat. 
Back in the day, I went through this with Rev Can when claiming mess dues and mess kit as employment expenses.  On review, their initial ruling was that as "a personal benefit" was derived from the mess dues they were not eligible as an employment expense.  The personal benefit can be interpreted as receiving a departure gift from the mess, meals/snacks put on during happy hour (when that was allowed), or the subsidization of entertainment/events among other things.  (For a mess dinner the personal benefit is the growlies you wolf down and the vino you swill.)  If an individual were able to obtain a receipt that showed the portion of mess dues that give no personal benefit (or possible personal benefit) whatsoever, then he may have a slim chance at convincing CRA that it may be a legitimate employment expense.  Surprisingly enough the BFOM (ahh, the memories) mess receipts did break down your dues into separate allocations.   As for the mess kit, the interpretation has changed over the years and, now, no clothing is claimable as an employment expense.  For both these items I quoted the applicable orders and made the case that as they stemmed from the NDA, I was required by law to incur the expenses and was not reimbursed by my employer except for a portion by way of CUA.  When it all came out in the wash, the additional refund was less than $75 but if I had been paying someone (at current rates) to do the necessary work, I’d be in the hole several hundred dollars.

When dealing with CRA it is necessary to be honest as well as thorough. CRA may be less amenable now to allowing (on an individual basis) such claims as these under employment expenses due to the new Employment Credit that is supposedly aimed at the expenses that many employees (not just soldiers) incur in their jobs.
Budget 2006 proposal - introducing the new Canada Employment Credit—a tax credit on employment income up to $500 effective July 1, 2006, to help working Canadians. The credit amount will double to $1,000 as of January 1, 2007.


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## MARS2INF (11 Sep 2006)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> So, if you you can avoid getting on their audit list (say...by not trying to claim a freakin' Mess Dinner), I'd do so.



If in doubt, call the SISIP folks. They'll know what to do with regards to the specific cases for military personnel and tax implications. Of course, every case is individual.

And as for the mess kits... I never even considered the implications of shelling out close to a *grand* for Mess Kit. Might be worth going to SISIP to inquire about that one, too...


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## Spartan (11 Sep 2006)

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/37747/post-319464.html#quickreply


			
				geo said:
			
		

> as for mess dues.... I deduct em under the Union dues heading on my annual tax return
> and have been doing so for some 30 years.


From another related topic: Just an old post that was in response to me earlier about this.... 
Thanks for the clarification.


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## George Wallace (11 Sep 2006)

I suppose, not being caught up, or audited, by CRA is all you need to justify your stance, then go for it.   :


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## gaspasser (11 Sep 2006)

I've heard of some people claiming Mess Dues, mess dinners, boot polish and clothing (prior to points), etc, on thier income returns for years and getting away with it?  Some of those expenses can add up to big buck$$  We've been wanting to do so for years but feared the outcome of fraud. I've heard also that people have tried, got caught and denied the expence. 
Anyone out there know if it's possible??? My 9er gets pissed every year about mess dues because we don't freguent the extablishment at all.  We do our entertaining at home. (less MP's to bother me in my comfy chair)
Thanks, GP


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## Meridian (11 Sep 2006)

You can try anything; if you get "audited" or "reviewed", they will deny you and you will have to pay it back + interest.  Now if you can get a better rate of return than the interest they charge (and if you can, please let me know how!) then I suppose its essentially  cash flow positive for you.

You wont get charged unless you keep doing it, or you should have clearly known not to.  

Also, the more things on your review that you claim, the apparent higher likelyhood that you are reviewed.  And if you are reviewed and they find something they tend to KEEP reviewing you.

Ie they did this to me, one year I claimed rent credit in Ontario, but was living with a buddy who was the only one on the lease. 2 years later they audited that, and asked for proof. I couldnt get any; was no longer in contact with him.   Managed to get about half of it proved via cheques I had written (the other were cash, and I was SOL).  Since then they have reviewed EVERY YEAR.  (Asking for tuition receipts usually).


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## X Royal (11 Sep 2006)

Gunner said:
			
		

> Spartan, no it is not akin to paying union dues.  I'm sure some brighter than me can give you the exact answer but in general, union dues are deemed a mandatory requirement to belong to a professional and self regulating organization.  Nurses, doctor's, trades people can claim their dues as they must belong to the organization in order to be certified by the provincial regulatory body.  For example, a nurse cannot work unless she/he are licensed in the province in which they work.
> 
> Even though mess dues are mandatory (by CFAO), they are not mandatory in a professional manner.


Gunner your explanation on union dues is to be honest all wet. You are confusing membership fees to professional regulatory organizations (ie: for doctors, nurses, electricians ect.) with union dues. Nurses for example have to be registered with their provincial regulatory body to be licenced but not all pay union dues. Nurses at large hospitals are usually in a union. Nurses at small doctors offfices seldom are in unions. Union dues are paid when your work place is covered by a union contract. Many people in the workforce work at places that are unionized and a required to be members to work there. These places cover everthing from professionals to janitors any most other jobs in between. Most of your civilian employees in the DND are unionized. 

Best Wishes


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## Gunner (11 Sep 2006)

> Gunner your explanation on union dues is to be honest all wet.



I think that is why I added the caveat "someone brighter then me can give you the exact answer".  But thanks for going out of your way to point out what I already had.  

I would submit to you that a nurse must belong to a union in order to work.  The nurses union acts as their professional body and self regulates its members behavior.  

Cheers,


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## George Wallace (11 Sep 2006)

Union Dues also go into things like the 'Strike Fund' which pays the members should they be on Strike.  I highly doubt that your Mess Dues would go forward to paying any wages should you ever go on 'Strike'  ;D but they do allow you to be a member of a 'Private Club'.  Do you get to claim your Membership in any Golf, Curling, Social, or other Club or Organization?


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## IN HOC SIGNO (11 Sep 2006)

Gunner said:
			
		

> I think that is why I added the caveat "someone brighter then me can give you the exact answer".  But thanks for going out of your way to point out what I already had.
> 
> I would submit to you that a nurse must belong to a union in order to work.  The nurses union acts as their professional body and self regulates its members behavior.
> 
> Cheers,



Not exactly...my wife is a nurse., she pays Registration dues to the Nova Scotia Nurses Association and Union Dues at the Hospital...both of which are tax deductible. The Association is the professional body that regulates...the union negotiates the collective agreements etc....they don't act as a professional watchdog. You are quite right though she has no choice in being a member or either group and must be a member of both in order to practice her profession.


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## Meridian (11 Sep 2006)

The other thing is that union fees/dues are usualy directed at source and forwarded to the union. *usually*.  In this case, your T4 includes the union fee deductions for reporting to CRA, and CRA receives this data automatically from your employer.  It is also cross-referenced when the union does their own return.


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## Gunner (12 Sep 2006)

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> Not exactly...my wife is a nurse., she pays Registration dues to the Nova Scotia Nurses Association and Union Dues at the Hospital...both of which are tax deductible. The Association is the professional body that regulates...the union negotiates the collective agreements etc....they don't act as a professional watchdog. You are quite right though she has no choice in being a member or either group and must be a member of both in order to practice her profession.



Ack.  

Professional Organization:

Alberta Association of Registered Nurses http://www.nurses.ab.ca/

Union

United Nurses of Alberta http://www.una.ab.ca/


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## X Royal (12 Sep 2006)

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> Not exactly...my wife is a nurse., she pays Registration dues to the Nova Scotia Nurses Association and Union Dues at the Hospital...both of which are tax deductible. The Association is the professional body that regulates...the union negotiates the collective agreements etc....they don't act as a professional watchdog. You are quite right though she has no choice in being a member or either group and must be a member of both in order to practice her profession.


Generally correct but she does not have to be a member of both to practice her profession. If she elected to work in a non union place she could still practice her profession. Working in a unionized hospital is the reason she has to be a member of the union. If she decided to work in a small doctors office in most cases she would not be required to join a union or pay dues. This route in most cases would also result in smaller paychecks and less benefits. But she could still practice nursing and not be a member of a union.


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## IN HOC SIGNO (12 Sep 2006)

X Royal said:
			
		

> Generally correct but she does not have to be a member of both to practice her profession. If she elected to work in a non union place she could still practice her profession. Working in a unionized hospital is the reason she has to be a member of the union. If she decided to work in a small doctors office in most cases she would not be required to join a union or pay dues. This route in most cases would also result in smaller paychecks and less benefits. But she could still practice nursing and not be a member of a union.



Quite so but then she wouldn't be able to keep me in the style to which I have become accustomed!! ;D


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## Fishbone Jones (12 Sep 2006)

The official answer was already stated awhile ago. Now the thread has wandered down a whole different trail without leaving any breadcrumbs. If you've got anything to add..................


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## Good2Golf (25 Mar 2009)

Decision rendered in the MS Middlesmiss case.

Unlocked for responsible contribution to the thread.

The Milnet.ca Staff


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## kratz (25 Mar 2009)

This decision is making the rounds and I received a copy with attached notes this morning. While the issue revolved around two idea, "mandatory parade" and "pay from personal funds", the finding was on the issue of disobeying an order. The thread is over two years old, but it appears the topic is alive and kicking.


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## dapaterson (25 Mar 2009)

Interesting implications; if a mess dinner is a parade, it therefore follows that a Class A reservist attending that parade is entitled to pay.  If it is a voluntary social function, a member would not have been entitled to pay.

The question of class A officers and NCMs being excluded from panel considerations is ripe for appeal; as Primary Reservists can be called out on service (unlike their CIC/Ranger and Supp Res brethren) there is no insurmountable obstacle to including them.  Their explict exclusion from consideration in the panel was commented on by the judge - the Court Martial Administrator made testimony that erred in fact on that matter, and unfortunately was not challenged by Defence Counsel.  I think that issue will be revisited in the future.

I suspect, however, that this case will proceed to the court martial appeal court.  Counsel for MS Middlemiss raised a number of preliminary motions that were dismissed that could be reopened, and the verdict could be reviewed (as with the Lt(N) who refused to remove his headdress for prayer - convicted at court-martial, with it completely overturned on appeal and, frankly, the judge was spanked left, right and centre for his verdict by the CMAC panel).  So I wouldn't get too worked up about it yet.


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## PMedMoe (25 Mar 2009)

Did I miss something here?  Where did it say anything about reservists?


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## PuckChaser (25 Mar 2009)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Interesting implications; if a mess dinner is a parade, it therefore follows that a Class A reservist attending that parade is entitled to pay.  If it is a voluntary social function, a member would not have been entitled to pay.



I was always paid a half day for every mess dinner I attended as a Cl A reservist, and always came out ahead over the cost of the mess dinner.

At CFSCE during our opening address for my QL6a, we were given a copy of a brief prepared by a JAG outlining the lawfulness of ordering pers to pay for a mess dinner and compel attendance. It was a 4 page document, and made a lot of sense. I believe I kept a copy of the PDF somewhere, I'll have to dig it up and host it somewhere.

It seems MS Middlemiss got more than he bargained for, $35 and a hissy fit ended up costing $500.


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## combat_medic (25 Mar 2009)

I still don't think the question has been answered. Yes, your CoC can order you to attend a mess function, but can they order you to spend your own money to be there? I don't think there's anything in the CFAOs to give a definitive answer on this... anyone?


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## 2 Cdo (25 Mar 2009)

combat_medic said:
			
		

> I still don't think the question has been answered. Yes, your CoC can order you to attend a mess function, but can they order you to spend your own money to be there? I don't think there's anything in the CFAOs to give a definitive answer on this... anyone?



Didn't Vern address this before. It seems she had a member who wouldn't pay but was still told to attend, and wasn't served a meal but still had to sit there for the dinner!


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## Journeyman (25 Mar 2009)

Note: the following point contributes nothing to this discussion. 
Mentioned only in case you're a lawyer, "barrack-room" or otherwise.   




			
				PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I was always paid a half day for every mess dinner I attended as a Cl A reservist, and always came out ahead over the cost of the mess dinner.



So...1/2 day pay, minus "cost of the mess dinner" (dinner + bar bill), still equalled a profit??

Pretty lame in the bar bill department I'd say...even for a Jimmie!    >


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## PMedMoe (25 Mar 2009)

You know, there's officers who claim theirs here in Ottawa and get it paid back so I'd be curious to see any kind of official document that states if you are ordered to go, you must pay.


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## PuckChaser (25 Mar 2009)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Note: the following point contributes nothing to this discussion.
> Mentioned only in case you're a lawyer, "barrack-room" or otherwise.
> 
> 
> ...



Oh... I never count drinks into the equation. No one makes you drink, its just more fun if the servers fill both of your wine glasses up and you collect the port glasses from people who didn't show up.  >


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## armyvern (25 Mar 2009)

If you read the judgement very carefully, you'll note the comment "Captain Whelan told Master Seaman Middlemiss that, "the Mess Dinner was an official function  and that as such it was a parade that he must attend."

There are Mess Dinners held which are not of "official function" status - which means the entire cost is borne by the member; usually these Mess Dinners are not treated as parades.

Then, there are Mess Dinners for which "official function" status is granted. In those cases, the dinners can (and usually are) treated as parades. As well, with the "official unction" authority having been granted and signed off on, labour costs etc are offest with Crown funds so the entire cost is not borne by the members attending. And, it seems to me that 35 bucks is rather cheap if it was indeed the "entire cost" (including labour portion etc) if this were not an "official function with Unit costs offest by the Crown.

It is possible, that the MS's Unit had the function designated as an "official function" (while the other Unit did not). That is done at the discretion of the CO and is fully within their authority; there is nothing unlawful about it.

Either way, I've got a big one coming up here and I've got the "official function" paperwork back and signed off this week in my mailbox to take over to the Mess. And, this conversation is eerily similar to one which I had with one of my subordinates who doesn't 'wish' to attend. In our case here with the upcoming dinner, it is deemed as an "official Function" for Jr Ranks, and Sgts & WOs - ergo our costs will be offset by susidies. The Officers attending will not have Mess susidies applied as it is not an "official function" being held within their Mess proper. The Junior Ranks Mess here allows subsidies to be paid on behalf of their members attending Mess Dinners outside of their own Mess purely due to the fact that the Jr Ranks don't have Mess Dinners in their Mess. 

Although I've already explained to them the difference bewteen a Mess Dinner which has been granted "official function" status and one which is not designated as such ... I'll be sure to pass them a print out of the ruling in this case.


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## sandyson (2 Apr 2009)

Mess dinners are part of the duties of leaders, because while they should enjoy themselves, they also have "work" to be done. (Same on "civie" street.) All officers but especially new ones must introduce themselves to each and every visitor with at least a brief conversation.  These dinners are social events but they are also ones of liaison--especially for the militia.  You want the military guests to leave with a favourable opinion of the unit as well as yourself.  These are the ordinary officers and NCOs who run courses and exercises.  They allocate resources.  You need their support as do your soldiers.  This is also opportunity to take some measure of them.  Your CO probably attends many of these dinners--more than s/he wants to.  Your job when s/he is hosting is to support him/her.  Your dinner must be enjoyable for the guests, therefore I suggest the adage for 'happy hour' attendance is appropriate:  All officers will attend: and all officers will be happy".


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## BinRat55 (4 Apr 2009)

I have not been to a mess dinner where I have not had an absolute blast - and that includes serving at them as an extra back in the day!! Extras? Please let me serve the mess dinner!! Oh the stories I could tell - - did ya hear about the time the Trucker (who incidentally was a server) got drunk in wine and crashed into the 12 piece brass band? Yea, that a mess story...

Definitely worth the 50 bucks - and don't forget a pen!!


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## geo (4 Apr 2009)

Where are you going to find a mess dinner for 50$ nowdays ???

anywhere between 65$ & 80$ this year


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## mseop 935 (4 Apr 2009)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Oh the stories I could tell - - did ya hear about the time the Trucker (who incidentally was a server) got drunk in wine and crashed into the 12 piece brass band? Yea, that a mess story...
> 
> 
> 
> Truckers drink?????


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## a78jumper (4 Apr 2009)

I had a rule about social obligations-if ordered to be there it was a parade period. Mess Dinners are parades. There were occasions when I was out of the area on a TD or leave etc but I went. I do know that some of the non drinkers in the crowd paid less for the cost of admission ie meal only. 

I staffed a redress for Comd 33CBG some years ago where a Sr NCO in one Bde unit was objecting to being forced to attend a unit dinner. My conclusion, as above. I might add I always got paid a half day's pay for attending Mess Dinners during the reserve portion of my career, which more than covered the cost of the dinner. If it involves wearing a uniform of any kind, it is a duty, and not a mere social obligation, and in the case of reservists, they should get paid.

On the other hand if an invitation was issued with an RSVP it was perfectly acceptable to deline with a thank you, no excuse required. This came about because a divorced former CO "invited" via engraved invite complete with RSVP all the Captains in the unit to dinner in the mess which in those days would have set the cheap SOB back about $72 @ $4 a head, then billed us all individually for the meal on our mess bills. 

There was a situation as a reservist where I was invited to a dinner, accepted the invite and was expected to wear S3. I arranged for two people from my team to attend on TD as well, which left no doubt in my mind that it was a duty event. The Bde COS declined to pay a half day pay, so I ended up hosting the Comd of LFC at my table in a business suit and did not feel the least bit guilty about leaving the minute dinner was done with appropriate excusal to attend another longstanding social obligation. Dining with anorexic "Biathalon Bruce" was not my idea of fun anyways.


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## 2 Cdo (4 Apr 2009)

geo said:
			
		

> Where are you going to find a mess dinner for 50$ nowdays ???
> 
> anywhere between 65$ & 80$ this year



Kingston geo! ;D

I can't recall paying more than $35 here.


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## SeaKingTacco (4 Apr 2009)

The point of this Court Martial decision was not the Mess Dinner per se- it was that Commanding Officers have wide latitude for issuing lawful commands...and commands that are not manifestly unlawful are therefore lawful.  Now, a debate could be made about how much common sense an order contains, but the lesson here is that, if you object to an order- it is still an order, no matter how much you object.  This Master Seaman would have had a much nicer outcome by attending the dinner and then redressing, vice ending up with a conduct sheet and a fine.

The military is not an a la carte menu- you cannot just pick the bits of it that you like and ignore the rest.  Unless you are ordered to bayonet babies, the lesson here is- follow orders.


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## Michael OLeary (4 Apr 2009)

geo said:
			
		

> Where are you going to find a mess dinner for 50$ nowdays ???
> 
> anywhere between 65$ & 80$ this year



A timely opportunity to introduce "Mess Dinners; Advice for Subaltern Organizers of"




> Those $35 Mess Dinners included:
> 
> * unit cooks (i.e., no staff wages)
> * soldiers to serve the dinner and wines (i.e., no staff wages)
> ...


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## BinRat55 (4 Apr 2009)

geo said:
			
		

> Where are you going to find a mess dinner for 50$ nowdays ???
> 
> anywhere between 65$ & 80$ this year



Geo - that was 50 bucks back in the early 90's... nowadays, I pay 35!! Everyone on my wing does - Pte to the W Comd - $35 for a wonderful meal and the right to make fun of the token Naval Officer's mess dress!!


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## geo (4 Apr 2009)

Heh..... 
And I'm down 160$ for a mixed candellight dinner tonight..... at least the Mrs will be happy,


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## Haggis (5 Apr 2009)

geo said:
			
		

> Heh.....
> And I'm down 160$ for a mixed candellight dinner tonight..... at least the Mrs will be happy,



I guess that depends on how drunk you get.   ;D

9erD and I are seriously considering the Army Ball this year since I'll be on TD in Gatineau anyways.  Even so, it'll turn out to be about a $300 night... before her dress


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## Zoomie (6 Apr 2009)

geo said:
			
		

> Where are you going to find a mess dinner for 50$ nowdays ???



Just got my bill from the Mess - $24.66


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## geo (6 Apr 2009)

I got off lucky - the Mrs had a long dress she had not worn at a candlelight dinner - so no wardrobe expense... except for my dress shirt she had to replace.... washed with something red & became pink - it just didn't look right


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## kratz (6 Apr 2009)

geo said:
			
		

> except for my dress shirt she had to replace.... washed with something red & became pink - it just didn't look right



[off topic]There are some Banyan's that shirt would fit right in.  ;D [/off topic]

I have noticed over the past number of years, while the cost of mess dinners has indeed increased, on average the expectation of attending them has reduced. When I first joined, there may have been two or three a year depending on where you worked ect... In the past few years, unless I am looking for a mess dinner I am not expected to attend more than one. In some ways this helps lessen the burden of attending a parade that must be paid for. In that context, I do not mind mess dinners as much as when I first learned about them.


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## benny88 (6 Apr 2009)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> A timely opportunity to introduce "Mess Dinners; Advice for Subaltern Organizers of"



Bookmarked for future reference! Thanks.


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## armyvern (6 Apr 2009)

benny88 said:
			
		

> Bookmarked for future reference! Thanks.



You want a schedule?

A link to the site where you download all the March Past & Toast MP3s?

A nameplace template?

A Menu/Program template?

A nameplace template with a lovely message pre-written to the CO under cover of actual member's name as composed by Vern?? 

A list of very-good hiding places to stash extra gavels as learned by Vern (such as in garter) because they always manage to damn well steal mine?

Just PM me - not a problem.


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## kratz (6 Apr 2009)

I now wanna pay for a mess dinner to steal a gaval Vern has placed. Her comment appears to be a challange. I know where I have placed 'em for my Coxswain and he still lost them. So Vern would be interesting.  8)

*edit: My meaning. It was light hearted to start and remains so. It was not meant to be offensive.


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## dapaterson (6 Apr 2009)

kratz said:
			
		

> I now wanna pay for a mess dinner to steal Vern's gaval. I know where I have placed 'em for my Coxswain and he still lost them. So Vern would be interesting.  8)



A little reading in advance of that might be in order:

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/5000/5012-0-eng.asp


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## kratz (6 Apr 2009)

No need for the reference. I had inserted a Radio Chatter comment without the appropriate notations. This was my fault.


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## PuckChaser (6 Apr 2009)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> A list of very-good hiding places to stash extra gavels as learned by Vern (such as in garter) because they always manage to damn well steal mine?



Extra gavels don't count! If its not the gavel that opens the mess dinner, it has no authorita!


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## Sailorwest (9 Apr 2009)

I guess that I have never quite understood why so many folks are reluctant to attend such dinners. It's a fabulous way of learning more about your messmates and for some great camaraderie. I got to agree with the "I've never not had fun at a mess dinner" sentiment. The Mess, in whatever element or rank you hold, is or should be, a key component of your job. By not being active in Mess activities, you end up missing out on the stuff that binds us together. For anyone who is junior member in their mess, you'll gain a lot more out of being an active and willing participant in your Mess then you would if you avoid it. Pony up the small amount of cash for the dinner because you'll gain more out of it in the end.


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## RetiredRoyal (14 Apr 2009)

TMM said:
			
		

> $70.00 can be a lot of money to fork over but it's cheaper than a new career.



$70 White shirt and bow tie
$35 Excellent meal with wine and port

Peeing on the floor of the officers mess under the table = Priceless


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## George Wallace (14 Apr 2009)

RetiredRoyal said:
			
		

> $70 White shirt and bow tie
> $35 Excellent meal with wine and port
> 
> Peeing on the floor of the officers mess under the table = Priceless



So?  How much did you have to "Pay" afterwards?    >


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## Rifleman62 (15 Apr 2009)

For those here who remember David Niven. Recounted in his first of two autobiographies, The Moon Is a Balloon (1972), while a Lt in the Highland Light Infantry based in Malta in the early 1930’s, Mess Dinners were held very late at night to avoid the heat. Instead of peeing on the floor, empty wine bottles were passed around, and the business was then done under table.

Try and be successful at that during a Mess Dinner!!!

I always admired David Niven. Some background:

The son a well-to-do British Army captain who died in the battle of Gallipoli in 1915, David Niven (1910-1983), while attending the Royal Military Academy at Sandhurst was asked to write down his three preferred regiments, he wrote 'anything but the HLI' (Highland Light Infantry) he was inevitably commissioned into the HLI. Resigned his commission (1933), was a Hollywood star pre WWII, rejoined the Rifle Brigade serving through Dunkirk, joining the commandos and later the secret Phantom Reconnaissance Regiment.

One of two movies he made in WWII, The Way Ahead, is about a Rifle Brigade platoon: “At the outset of World War II, a disparate group of civilians undergo basic training and prepare to fight - and die - for their country. The recruits include men from all classes, education and professions. At first, they object to their regimented lifestyle and resent the constant supervision of their training sergeant. Gradually, they learn their new skills and develop pride in what they are doing. Destined to be part of the invasion of French North Africa, their ship is nearly sunk. They soon find themselves fighting the Germans and putting their training to good use”.

Peter Ustinov who, as a private in the Army was later assigned to Niven as his batman was also in the movie.
A good small unit leadership movie which is still available. 

Wikipedia: Niven remained close-mouthed about the war, despite public interest in celebrities in combat and a reputation for storytelling. He said once: "I will, however, tell you just one thing about the war, my first story and my last. I was asked by some American friends to search out the grave of their son near Bastogne. I found it where they told me I would, but it was among 27,000 others, and I told myself that here, Niven, were 27,000 reasons why you should keep your mouth shut after the war." Niven also had special scorn for the newspaper columnists covering the war who typed out self-glorifying and excessively florid prose about their meagre wartime experiences. Niven stated, "Anyone who says a bullet sings past, hums past, flies, pings, or whines past, has never heard one − they go crack.” One story has surfaced: about to lead his men into a battle with an expectation of heavy casualties, Niven eased their nervousness by telling them, "It's all very well for you chaps, but I'll have to do this all over again in Hollywood with Errol Flynn!"


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## BinRat55 (15 Apr 2009)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Instead of peeing on the floor, empty wine bottles were passed around, and the business was then done under table.
> 
> Try and be successful at that during a Mess Dinner!!!



Funny you should remark to that - while cleaning up after serving an extra at a mess dinner a long time ago I encountered a port bottle under a table half full. A couple of things came to mind at that point - where did the bottle come from, as port was poured into a decanter in the kitchen PRIOR to it entering the dinner area, and secondly, port is dark purple, not yellow (yuck)!! Further to this thought, the bottle was half full... 

Brings a whole new meaning to the phrase "Share the bottle..."


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## CountDC (15 Apr 2009)

The wine bottle under the table - ever see someone drink it?  Serving a mess dinner my first year in someone had laid the bottle under the table and two of the young officers thought they hit the jackpot.....until she took the first guzzle (taste buds don't always work right of way when drunk).  The gentleman that offered her first drink did not get his wish that night.  ;-)


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## armyvern (16 Apr 2009)

So, I finally got together the total costs / person for tonight's Mess Dinner put together yesterday:

$31.22 per person. 

After having our Mess Dinner authorized as an "Official Function" - we were able to reduce our labour costs by 34% because 34% of the attendees are Snr NCOs and Warrant Officers (it's being held in our Mess).

Our Mess also pays a subsidy of $20.00 / member for a Mess Dinner once per year (it was $15.00 until last week's mess meeting when we voted to raise it to 20). The Jr Ranks also subsidizes their members for $15.00 / member once per year.

So, after deducting our labour costs by the 34%, applying the mess subsidy, and a couple other subsidies - here's what I've actually got the ACARs done up for (the ACAR is the acquittance roll cost that we'll each actually be paying from our salary for 'individual portion of that $31.22 figure/person - the rest being offset by the various subsidies):

Officers: $15.00;
Civilians: $15.00;
Snr NCOs & WOs: $11.50; and
Jr Ranks: $10.00.

Oh yeah, If I happen to make it on here very _very_ much later tonight ... I may very very well be ... posting loaded; let the games begin.  >


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## CountDC (16 Apr 2009)

wow - good job!

I suppose it is pure coincidence that the vote to increase the subsidy was just before your dinner. >


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## Michael OLeary (16 Apr 2009)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> $31.22 per person.



Vern, out of curiosity, what would the cost per person have been without official function status or the subsidies?


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## Fishbone Jones (16 Apr 2009)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Vern, out of curiosity, what would the cost per person have been without official function status or the subsidies?



....or without hot dogs as the main course ;D


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## Eye In The Sky (16 Apr 2009)

Vern

I don't know what your menu was like, or what is on ours, but the Sqn Mess Dinner upcoming for us is $25.

If you had hot dogs....yikes!


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## CountDC (16 Apr 2009)

mind you hot dogs is an improvement over one dinner I had - small slice of turkey (dry and bland), few frozen fries, some form of boxed stuffing and cranberry sauce that equalled the size of a cranberry.  Only time I have ever stood up and asked for salt and pepper at a dinner and did not stand up to applaud the cook (did stand to applaud the servers).


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## Michael OLeary (16 Apr 2009)

Sometimes the desire to satisfy the _"mess dinners are too expensive"_ crowd results in dinners that no-one enjoys. And then those special few just complain about that.   ???


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## Fishbone Jones (16 Apr 2009)

I can never complain about ours. Ours is normally a huge five or six course prime rib dinner. Unlimited wine, port and aperitifs are included in the price of $60.00 for guest and between 30-50 for members depending on the turn out.


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## BinRat55 (17 Apr 2009)

CountDC said:
			
		

> ...and asked for salt and pepper at a dinner and did not stand up to applaud the cook (did stand to applaud the servers).



As an aside (or hijack) I learned at our last mess dinner that it was an insult to the chef to request salt or pepper... you are essentially saying that the chef didn't season the food properly!! I never knew...


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## BinRat55 (17 Apr 2009)

I also learned that you can cause a lot of mischief if you manage to get the nameplates of a husband and wife attending the same mess dinner!!!


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## armyvern (17 Apr 2009)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Vern, out of curiosity, what would the cost per person have been without official function status or the subsidies?



Lots!!

Labour costs for kitchen staff preparing would have been added to our bill (at an overtime rate) if the event is not an official CF function. It's the wages that'll kill you every time too.

Additionally, the wages of the wine servers and bar staff at the Mess are reduced by the same percentage of "mess members attending" (of the particluar Mess it's actually being held in) because those members are already paying wages of staff in their respective Mess. If this were not an official function, the total bar staff and wine servers wages (with overtime) would also be added onto our total cost for the event. 

We lucked out in that we had 159 pers total attending - offsetting the wages that we still had to pay by many pers. The smaller the number of attendees ... the higher the individual cost. 

We saved approx 2200 bucks due to it being official function  - about $15.00 per person. It would have been closer to $46.50 per person without the "official function" status applied for and authorized.


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## armyvern (17 Apr 2009)

recceguy said:
			
		

> ....or without hot dogs as the main course ;D



Here's what our menu consisted of:

Menu
_Appetizer_
Chef’s Salad with Raspberry Vinaigrette
Roasted Red Pepper & Carrot Soup with Fresh Parsley and Cream
Maple Glazed Salmon on Kale
_Entrée_
Pork Tenderloin with Demi Glaze
Baby Oven Roast Potato
Sweet Glazed Baby Carrots
Triple Pepper Saute
Fresh Dinner Rolls
_Dessert_
Chocolate Mousse Cheese Cake
Tea & Coffee
Cheese with Crackers


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## Nfld Sapper (17 Apr 2009)

Wow, nice menu.


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## aesop081 (17 Apr 2009)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Here's what our menu consisted of:
> 
> Menu
> _Appetizer_
> ...



Exact same menue we had for the AF 85th a couple of weeks ago.


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## armyvern (17 Apr 2009)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Exact same menue we had for the AF 85th a couple of weeks ago.



Geez, don't tell me that!!

We actually pulled this menu ourselves and put it together from thier "lists" of items.

We thought - for once - that we could be original!! 

Anyway, it was great. The soup was absolutely delicious (a HUGE hit). And, most people were actually full after the salmon.

Even I, with my lovely appetite - didn't find the need to go through the drive-through at McDos at 0325hrs when I left the Mess ... 

It's all good.


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## OldSolduer (17 Apr 2009)

The Fish Creek Dinner is being held on Friday 24 April 2009. The traditional dinner of a Lil Black Devil is pork, beans and hard tack! :nod:

I would not kid you about this!!


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## Franko (17 Apr 2009)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Here's what our menu consisted of:
> 
> Menu
> _Appetizer_
> ...



Exactly the same one we had in May 08 prior to deployment....in Pet.

Seems a rather popular choice.

Regards


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## RetiredRoyal (17 Apr 2009)

mess dinner used to be a PO on JLC...i was assigned grace in english....it was so quick and painless, most people didn't even realize i was done..lol.


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## Journeyman (17 Apr 2009)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Even I, with my lovely appetite - didn't find the need to go through the drive-through at McDos at 0325hrs when I left the Mess ...


You could drive??! When did you suddenly become a grown-up?  :'(


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## armyvern (18 Apr 2009)

Office Linebacker said:
			
		

> mess dinner used to be a PO on JLC...i was assigned grace in english....it was so quick and painless, most people didn't even realize i was done..lol.



Yes, it was. I PMCd the Mess Dinner held on my JLC - it was the last time that I went in a 'virgin'.


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## armyvern (18 Apr 2009)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> You could drive??! When did you suddenly become a grown-up?  :'(



Back to reality JM; we had duty drivers.

MacDo's is usually a 'given' for me ... then through Timmies before they pour my butt out at home. But, this time only the stop at Timmies was required - I was full. And toasted.


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## CountDC (21 Apr 2009)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> As an aside (or hijack) I learned at our last mess dinner that it was an insult to the chef to request salt or pepper... you are essentially saying that the chef didn't season the food properly!! I never knew...



Yep - my statement was load and clear to all - this food sucks.  Everyone knew I was fully aware of the policy as I had worked many mess dinners, was PMC of JRs, Bar Manager of the Officers mess one summer in A'shot and a Tarbender in A'shot an other (served over 60 mess dinners that year). You eat the food as is and applaud the staff - always.


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## armyvern (21 Apr 2009)

For all of you who've requested my templates etc ...

Please PM me your email addys as I can not upload the file-types here to dot cee eh.

Thanks muchly.

Vern


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## Grunt225 (23 Sep 2010)

I am sure this has happened to more than one person out there. Ya, my unit has been ordered to attend a Mess Dinner and pay for it out of our own pocket. Its not expensive but thats not the point. I am just not a fan of being told were to spend my money! Does anyone know of any references prohibiting a Mess Dinner being made a parade? or allowing it? My other thought was to Claim the expense. Any one know how that would work out for me? I have the email stating that it is a parade and as such a must attend event, and I'll get a receipt for the payment, attach that to an MTEC and away I go. oh and put the milage or taxi receipt on there too! 

Any info would be great!

Thanks


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## mariomike (23 Sep 2010)

Topic: "paying for a mess dinner":
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/41585.0.html


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## TimBit (23 Sep 2010)

Are you Reg Force or Reserves? If you are Reserves, most units will give you a class A day, not to cover the price, but because it is a parade. If you are Regs, see R. v. Master Seaman R.J. Middlemiss, 2009 CM 1001 , at this link:

http://www.jmc-cmj.forces.gc.ca/dec/2009-eng.asp

He got a reprimand and a 500$ fine. Bottom line: it is a lawful command and the member has to comply.


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## PuckChaser (23 Sep 2010)

CFSCE had a JAG Legal O draft a statement to this very idea.

Mess Dinners are counted as part of military tradition, and part of our salary (very small, like 1%) is justified as having to pay for things like mess dinners. They can order you to attend, but if you are really objecting to paying, then you'll probably be told to sit there with no food and no free 'table wine' and port. You won't be able to claim a taxi receipt, nobody made you drink. The CO may be generous and pay for cabs, but I have only seen that once.


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## Journeyman (23 Sep 2010)

Grunt225 said:
			
		

> I am just not a fan of being told were to spend my money!


I'm not a fan of paying taxes to support terrorists' lawyers, cushy programmes for drug addicts, or long-gun registration. Those taxes are, however, one of the conditions of living in this country.

Paying for a Mess Dinner is one of conditions of serving in the CF, and like me paying taxes if the conditions are too onerous one always has the option of leaving. While that may sound harsh and unsympathetic, I assure you it's just reality. 


And as a suggestion..... just like I don't constantly complain about taxes, spending the Mess Dinner complaining about it will only diminish the positive aspects for yourself and irritate those sitting around you.  Your call of course.


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## Cpl4Life (23 Sep 2010)

I also think it's bullshit, but what can you do but suck it up and fork over the money.  I was also told I had to wear a white collared dress shirt under my DEU's to the mess dinner... I had no white dress shirts so I wore my wifes which was not only too small (couldn't do it up around my manly middle) but it had a "ruffly" collar.  I wasn't about to go out and buy a dress shirt on top of $50 for the dinner.


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## Haggis (23 Sep 2010)

:deadhorse: 

Our pay, both Regular Force and Reserve Force, is calculated to include a 4% "Military factor" which is to compensate us for the unique military requirements to get haircuts, dry clean uniforms, buy shoe polish and pay for mess dues and mess dinners.  We have to pay for mess dinners because no one is entitled to a free meal in the CF.   If you're a Reservist who is fortunate enough to be in a unt that can afford to cough up a days pay for this "parade", be happy.  Your Regular Force comrades don't enjoy that perk.  In fact, just be happy that you get that additional 4% and enjoy the dinner. :brickwall:



			
				Nix said:
			
		

> I had no white dress shirts so I wore my wifes which was not only too small (couldn't do it up around my manly middle) but it had a "ruffly" collar.  I wasn't about to go out and buy a dress shirt on top of $50 for the dinner.



I'm sure you'd make future use of a white shirt - like at the next mess dinner that you're ordered to attend.  Wearing your wife's white blouse to two different functions is a HUGE fashion faux pas.  Ask any woman why she needs a new dress for every event.


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## Danjanou (23 Sep 2010)

As for the "cost of a white shirt and bow tie" Wait until reach Snr NCO or Officer Ranks and see what Mess Kit costs. 

As pointed out attending mess dinners are part and parcel of the job end of statment. Not everything in the CF is fun and not everyone has the same definition of "fun."

You have two options go bitching and grumbling a dn have a miserable time, or go in with an open mind and maybe find it an enjoyable expeience full of comradeship and the traditions that are an essential  part of what we are.


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## dapaterson (23 Sep 2010)

Haggis said:
			
		

> :deadhorse: Our pay, both Regular Force and Reserve Force, is calculated to include a 4% "Military factor" which is to compensate us for the requirements to get haircuts, dry cleaning, shoe polish and pay for mess dinners.  We have to pay for mess dinners because no one is entitled to a free meal in the CF.   If you're a Reservist who is fortunate enough to be in a unt that can afford to cough up a days pay for this "parade", be happy.  Your Regular Force comrades don't enjoy that perk.  In fact, just be happy that you get that additional 4% and enjoy the dinner. :brickwall:



Haggis:  if a dinner is a parade, a member is entitled to pay for it.  No ifs, ands or buts.  Reg F are paid 24/7 already; Reservists are paid when on duty - and a parade is duty time.

The Army released an official policy on this recently.  (LFCO 11-05, as announce in CANLANDGEN 013/10)


(Edit to add reference)


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## Haggis (23 Sep 2010)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The Army released an official policy on this recently.  (LFCO 11-05, as announce in CANLANDGEN 013/10)



Recently indeed, and I hadn't seen this yet. Thanks.  I consider myself updated.

So, clearly this has removed another preceived "hardship" associated with mess dinners for Army Reservists.


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## dapaterson (23 Sep 2010)

Of course, the traditional method for Reserves to organize such things is to plan a training event / professional development event the day of the dinner.  Show up at 8am, study X, Y or Z for the day, get changed, and enjoy the dinner. 

And if the PD ends early, there's always work for subbies to set things up...


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## Haggis (23 Sep 2010)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Of course, the traditional method for Reserves to organize such things is to plan a training event / professional development event the day of the dinner.  Show up at 8am, study X, Y or Z for the day, get changed, and enjoy the dinner.
> 
> And if the PD ends early, there's always work for subbies to set things up...



That's usually been the practise.  However, in the past you always had those soldiers who only showed up for the dinner and then whined afterwards that they didn't get paid the same as the troops who showed up and trained all day beforehand (usually it was some type of PD or "mandated briefings" like WHMIS, radiation safety media awareness etc.) .  I've also seen the reverse, where troops show up for the "good" training and then are absent for the dinner. 

I've never been a big fan of mess life in general but accept it as part of the job.  And, like other aspects of service in the CF, if you want it to be fun, it'll be fun.  If you want it to suck, it'll suck.  I choose to make the best of it.


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## Blackadder1916 (23 Sep 2010)

The decisions at 





> R. v. Master Seaman R.J. Middlemiss, 2009 CM 1001 , at this link:
> 
> http://www.jmc-cmj.forces.gc.ca/dec/2009-eng.asp


 (noted in TimBit’s previous post) make for interesting reading.

I particularly noted a frequent use of the phrase “mess dinners were intended to be _esprit de corps_ events.”  Obviously, for MS Middlemass, the specific function he refused to attend did little to improve his “esprit” and I sensed (perhaps incorrectly) that it probably had a similar effect on the fellow junior NCMs in that unit who (as noted in the decision) indicated that they would not have attended if the mess dinner had not been decreed mandatory.

But another thought struck me; are junior NCMs attending (and being forced to attend) mess dinners in a greater frequency than in years decades past.  The word “tradition” is often used when justifying mandatory attendance.  During my time in the junior ranks, I attended a mess dinner on only two occasions and both times they were associated with courses.  

The first time was the evening that we graduated from basic training in Cornwallis (mid ‘70s).  Our instructors told us that this was a very unique event and was happening only because the reviewing officer of the grad parade was a general officer (I don’t remember who) and he liked mess dinners (or more likely the BComd wanted to impress him).  In my dimming memory I can’t remember if we were assessed for this function . . . ahh, now that I’m thinking about it, I do remember the instructor sitting across from me (an RCD MCpl) mentioning that the small assessment ($2 or not much more) was “for the pickles”.  I also recall that this MCpl said that this was only the second mess dinner he had attended, the other being on his CLC.  That also was the only other time as a JR that I attended such a function, the “training” mess dinner on my JLC.

I am a fan of mess dinners (and other mess traditions, having been both a Jnr Ranks PMC and Officers’ Mess Vice) and have never been one to suggest that the tradition be curtailed.  However, the tradition had been that mess dinners were focal events for Officers and WOs & Sgts.  Even then, there was only infrequent mingling of the two groups.  During my Reg Force commissioned service, I semi-recall (that may have something to do with the quality and quantity of the port) only once attending an all ranks mess dinner and even that was very heavily subsidized for the junior NCMs. (I was on an air base at the time and the function was for the BAdm branch.)

I would suggest that (if this is now more frequent) one of the reasons may be that Commanding Officers are faced with too small a critical mass of officers and/or Snr NCMs to make the cost of mess dinners acceptable, so they impose what had been a traditional and acceptable expense to members of the senior messes on junior soldiers who traditionally did not attend mess dinners.  When I was the CO of a reserve unit, I was tempted on occasion to follow such a course, however (unlike my fondness for whisky and port) I resisted the temptation.  How was “esprit de corps” traditionally encouraged through “social” functions?  Usually, there were all-ranks social events throughout the year, some exclusively for serving members, some more formal that included spouses (permanent and temporary), some that included all family members including children.  But none were parades requiring uniforms.


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## Fishbone Jones (23 Sep 2010)

How about posting the ref in full for those that don't have daily access to the DIN.

Regards


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## Kat Stevens (23 Sep 2010)

If you're a reservist why not just do what reservists have done forever to get out of parades, execises, range days, etc?  Just tell them you've got to work, or study, or you have a hang nail, or the buses stop running too early, or some other excuse reason.


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## Occam (23 Sep 2010)

recceguy said:
			
		

> How about posting the ref in full for those that don't have daily access to the DIN.
> 
> Regards



The ref is an internet link, not DWAN.


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## Franko (23 Sep 2010)

Just read it....he's SOL and the charges stuck.

Go to the Dinner and enjoy the port.

Regards


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## Fishbone Jones (23 Sep 2010)

Occam said:
			
		

> The ref is an internet link, not DWAN.



So where is the link to LFCO 11-05, as announced in CANLANDGEN 013/10, dapaterson is talking about?


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## armyvern (23 Sep 2010)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> The decisions at  (noted in TimBit’s previous post) make for interesting reading.
> 
> I particularly noted a frequent use of the phrase “mess dinners were intended to be _esprit de corps_ events.”  Obviously, for MS Middlemass, the specific function he refused to attend did little to improve his “esprit” and I sensed (perhaps incorrectly) that it probably had a similar effect on the fellow junior NCMs in that unit who (as noted in the decision) indicated that they would not have attended if the mess dinner had not been decreed mandatory.
> 
> ...



Earlier in this thread, the link is provided for the entire Court martial transcript vice just the sentencing/Charter Challenges.

As for "frequency" of Jr ranks attending, it all depends upon your Unit; pers may very well be posted to a Unit where it is an annual occurance by tradition OR to a Unit where it occurs only sporadicly if at all. MS Middlemiss was, at the time, serving in Colorado (IIRC, but it was in the US) where an Annual "All-Nations" Mess Dinner indeed occured each year; it was a traditional function for the Unit with whom he was serving at the time.

Besides all our other Mess Dinners, my previous Unit holds an Annual Mess Dinner that is inclusive of the Jr Ranks. It is a trg Mess Dinner and is a mandatory parade. We Snr NCOs, WOs & Officers subsidized their costs - as did their very own Jr Ranks Mess; still, we'd have those who insisted that they "did not have to pay" (even at 10 bucks each) - they got exactly what they wished for. They sat through the entire Mess Dinner without the meal and without the drinks. I'll note that the only persons who did NOT have a blast and enjoy themselves were exactly those same pers.

On a personal note, I volunteer myself up for each and every Mess Dinner that I possibly can; I have never attended one that I did not utterly enjoy. I just signed myself up for one today which is occuring on 7 Oct ... and has absolutely nothing to do with my own Unit.


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## PMedMoe (23 Sep 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I just signed myself up for one today which is occuring on 7 Oct ... and has absolutely nothing to do with my own Unit.



See you there, Vern.  I took a day's annual for the Friday.   :nod:


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## armyvern (23 Sep 2010)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> See you there, Vern.  I took a day's annual for the Friday.   :nod:



Moi aussi; I'll only be getting back to my apartment circa 0800hrs ... if my personal tradition holds on this base too.  ;D


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## PuckChaser (23 Sep 2010)

I really don't see people's issue with mess dinners. They are always a great time, if you let them be a great time. If you go to one with a bad attitude, it just drags everyone else down. What other job pays you to go to a dinner after work hours, gives you a shiny suit to wear and lets you party with your coworkers with some good food and free wine? I've even made gavel stealing a personal specialty/mission. I hope that doesn't have to stop when I'm a Snr NCO.


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## Haggis (23 Sep 2010)

recceguy said:
			
		

> So where is the link to LFCO 11-05, as announced in CANLANDGEN 013/10, dapaterson is talking about?



LFCO  11-05 is only available on the DWAN.  As it's unclassified, I've cut 'n pasted it below.  Note the direction in para 7 that _dapaterson_ referred to in reply 148.  It only applies to members who are ordered to attend.  So, as Middlemiss found out, you CAN be so ordered. 

A DJA opinion from 2003 quoted the Mess and Institues policy which states:  "Mess dinners provide an opportunity for mess members to meet on a formal but friendly occasion, allowing the senior member, or his guests to address the members as a group.  By custom and tradition, which in the service context its an extension of the common law, mess dinners are considered to be a parade and as such attendance is compulsory except for members excused by the BComd, PMC or otherc onvening authority."

*LFCO 11-05

APPROVING AUTHORITIES FOR OFFICIAL MESS FUNCTIONS* 

*REFERENCES*

A.	A-PS-110-001/AG-002, Morale and Welfare Programs in the CF
B.	NDHQ A/CLS 7335-1 (G1 Svcs) letter dated 14 January 2009
C.	Financial Administration Manual Chapter 1017-1

*APPLICABLE TO*

1.	Land Force Command (LFC) Areas, Formations, Base/ASUs, Training Centres, Bases and Units.

*AIM*

2.	The aim of this order is to delegate the authority to unit Commanding Officers to authorize Official Mess Functions 

*DEFINITION OF AN OFFICIAL MESS FUNCTION*

3.  	An official mess function is an activity such as a mess dinner or a military ceremonial event, which fulfills a public responsibility, contributes to the effective functioning of the CF, enhances unit cohesion or marks an event of military or national significance.  A mess dinner may be held in conjunction with a training event or to commemorate of specific unit event such as the unit birthday or end of training year.  A military ceremonial event may be such as a Change of Command parade, colours presentation or special unit anniversaries/landmark.  

*SUPPORT FOR OFFICIAL MESS FUNCTIONS*

4.	  In accordance with reference A, chapter 5, section 2, paragraph 11, mess facilities may be used for mess dinners and military ceremonial events.  Public support for authorized mess dinners and military ceremonial events will be IAW Table 5-2-1 of reference A.  Mess dinners that are authorized for public support will normally be the responsibility of the Unit from their operating budgets.

5.	  Public support for authorized Military ceremonial events is in accordance with policies at reference A, chapter 3, section 2, paragraph 24.  How to determine if an event can be publicly funded can be found at reference C, under the Provisions of Hospitality section.

*AUTHORIZATION* 

6.	  In accordance with reference A, chapter 5, section 2, paragraph 13 and reference B, Unit Commanding Officers can authorize Official Mess Functions.   Requests for Official Mess Functions not defined within reference A, chapter 3, section 2 are to be submitted to the Chief of Land Staff through the Chain of Command for approval.

7.	A reservist ordered to attend an authorized Official Mess Function, is entitled to be paid for his attendance at the Class A rate of pay.

Lastly, in thier 1998 report: Moving Forward - A Strategic Plan for Quality of Life Improvements in the Canadian Forces,  The Standing Committee on National Defence and Veteran's Affairs described and commented on how the Military Factor in our pay is arrived at and taken to be applied:

*"THE MILITARY FACTOR * 

Part of the military pay package includes what is referred to as the Military Factor or the X-Factor. In 1974, the Military Factor was set at 4% of salary and was subdivided in 1981 into three distinct components that are still in effect today. The obligation to adhere to a military code of service discipline was set at 0.5% of salary. This adjustment was meant to compensate for the loss of freedom resulting from obligations such as the need for uniformity and compliance, and the absolute requirement to follow orders. Other elements are the frequent separations from families set at 1.5% of salary, and the family posting turbulence from relocations at 2%. 

Needless to say, these valuations are highly subjective. However, given current realities, the separation from families factor and, in particular, the posting turbulence factor should be increased. These were stresses consistently mentioned during our hearings. But, as a Committee we do not believe we have the requisite expertise to determine exactly what the appropriate weighting should be. This is something we will need to leave in the hands of the Department. As well, given the changing nature of deployments and the increased risks this entails, other additional, or more appropriate, factors could be worked into the overall valuation of the Military Factor. We therefore recommend: 

*9. That the Department of National Defence immediately review the Military Factor to ensure that both the criteria and the values assigned properly reflect the uniqueness of military service and that the results be reviewed by SCONDVA on an annual basis*."


----------



## Occam (23 Sep 2010)

recceguy said:
			
		

> So where is the link to LFCO 11-05, as announced in CANLANDGEN 013/10, dapaterson is talking about?



Ah, sorry.  I thought you were talking about the link to the Middlemiss CM.


----------



## George Wallace (23 Sep 2010)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I really don't see people's issue with mess dinners. They are always a great time, if you let them be a great time. If you go to one with a bad attitude, it just drags everyone else down. What other job pays you to go to a dinner after work hours, gives you a shiny suit to wear and lets you party with your coworkers with some good food and free wine? I've even made gavel stealing a personal specialty/mission. I hope that doesn't have to stop when I'm a Snr NCO.



I have always enjoyed myself at Mess Dinners.  I have enjoyed the ones where I was waited upon, and the ones where I was a Server.  We used to fight to be chosen to serve at Mess Dinners, yet another tradition that has seen an end.  

The Mess and the fun that you have in it is made by you.  If you want to have a good time in the Mess, strive to have a good time.  If you want to see the Mess become a useless drain on your pocket book with no returns, then neglect it and don't participate.   Your choice.  Be a miserable miser, or have a good time and enjoy the interaction.

I'd like to ask Grunt225 if they enjoy going out to dinner at a fancy restaurant, or perhaps an evening of Karaoke?


----------



## TimBit (24 Sep 2010)

Completely agree! Mess dinners are fun and a great way to learn to know those peers you may not know. I personnally believe that esprit de corps is one of the things that sets us apart from the civvy street and that it should be promoted.

As a Naval Officer, it seems to me that if you are eventually going to be stuck on a ship with 25 or so colleagues for 6 months, might as well learn to know them and, even better, to enjoy them.

As for the MIddlemiss CM, you will also note that the CO mentionned that CanDet was hosting US NORAD/NORTHCOM on that particular occasion. Therefore, it would have been rude for the CanDet, notably smaller than the guest organization, not to put out a good show. And, the severity of the judgement hinged strongly on the fact that he, as a junior leader in this unit, had to set the example. But I guess that is how the CF is nowadays, people are looking more into what they can get out of it than what they can put in...


----------



## Fishbone Jones (24 Sep 2010)

TimBit said:
			
		

> Completely agree! Mess dinners are fun and a great way to learn to know those peers you may not know. I personnally believe that esprit de corps is one of the things that sets us apart from the civvy street and that it should be promoted.
> 
> As a Naval Officer, it seems to me that if you are eventually going to be stuck on a ship with 25 or so colleagues for 6 months, might as well learn to know them and, even better, to enjoy them.
> 
> As for the MIddlemiss CM, you will also note that the CO mentionned that CanDet was hosting US NORAD/NORTHCOM on that particular occasion. Therefore, it would have been rude for the CanDet, notably smaller than the guest organization, not to put out a good show. And, the severity of the judgement hinged strongly on the fact that he, as a junior leader in this unit, had to set the example. *But I guess that is how the CF is nowadays, people are looking more into what they can get out of it than what they can put in...*


Ding, ding


----------



## riggermade (24 Sep 2010)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I have always enjoyed myself at Mess Dinners.  I have enjoyed the ones where I was waited upon, and the ones where I was a Server.  We used to fight to be chosen to serve at Mess Dinners, yet another tradition that has seen an end.
> 
> The Mess and the fun that you have in it is made by you.  If you want to have a good time in the Mess, strive to have a good time.  If you want to see the Mess become a useless drain on your pocket book with no returns, then neglect it and don't participate.   Your choice.  Be a miserable miser, or have a good time and enjoy the interaction.
> 
> I'd like to ask Grunt225 if they enjoy going out to dinner at a fancy restaurant, or perhaps an evening of Karaoke?



As a young Pte and Cpl I loved doing Mess dinners and as I moved up in rank was always a good time


----------



## MisterE (18 Apr 2012)

Can you be forced to pay into a informal unit function (IE Troop Party, Beer Calls) or a formal CF function (IE Mess Dinners, PD Trips) ?


----------



## PuckChaser (18 Apr 2012)

They can force you to go, if you want to refuse to pay. The JAG had a briefing note floating around CFSCE about mess dinners being part of military life and that reasonable costs are built into a catchall percentage of your pay to offset their cost.

Why is your unit making you spend your own dime on PD trips? You should be on TD if its out of town with rations and quarters plus transport.


----------



## mariomike (18 Apr 2012)

Topic: The "Paying For a Mess Dinner" Merged Thread:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/41585.0
7 pages.


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## PuckChaser (18 Apr 2012)

Good catch, mariomike.

Thread merge, mods?


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## The Bread Guy (18 Apr 2012)

Done 
*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## MisterE (18 Apr 2012)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> They can force you to go, if you want to refuse to pay. The JAG had a briefing note floating around CFSCE about mess dinners being part of military life and that reasonable costs are built into a catchall percentage of your pay to offset their cost.
> 
> Why is your unit making you spend your own dime on PD trips? You should be on TD if its out of town with rations and quarters plus transport.



Oh it's not for me but for a guy that I know, thanks for the thread merge btw.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (18 Apr 2012)

MisterE said:
			
		

> Oh it's not for me but for a guy that I know



 gotcha


----------



## MisterE (18 Apr 2012)

Technically it's several guys; a mess dinner comming up required 7 or 8 seats. So they tapped several Sgts and said you will attenend and you will bring your spouse. With the cost for the dinner being $50 x2 + $50 (cab) + $40 (babysitter) = $190 is what it looks like he is going to have to pay for one night out. I can see where the regiment is coming from in an effort to raise esprit de corps, but I have never found forced fun to be very effective.


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## OldSolduer (18 Apr 2012)

MisterE said:
			
		

> So they tapped several Sgts and said you will attenend and you will bring your spouse.



I'd like to see the CWO who could tell my wife "you will attend". I've tried that with her and got told...in no uncertain terms.

"The Man" cannot order your spouse to attend. Member - yes. Mess Dinners are parades.


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## Eye In The Sky (18 Apr 2012)

If spouses are attending, is it not really a "Mixed Dining In" vice "Mess Dinner"?


----------



## mariomike (18 Apr 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I'd like to see the CWO who could tell my wife "you will attend". I've tried that with her and got told...in no uncertain terms.



Reminds me of something I heard about making a marriage last. "Two times a week, we go to a nice restaurant, a little wine, good food..... She goes Tuesdays, I go Fridays."


----------



## OldSolduer (18 Apr 2012)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> If spouses are attending, is it not really a "Mixed Dining In" vice "Mess Dinner"?




You are quite correct. The rules change.



			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> Reminds me of something I heard about making a marriage last. "Two times a week, we go to a nice restaurant, a little wine, good food..... She goes Tuesdays, I go Fridays."



 ;D


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## Pusser (18 Apr 2012)

MisterE said:
			
		

> Can you be forced to pay into a informal unit function (IE Troop Party, Beer Calls) or a formal CF function (IE Mess Dinners, PD Trips) ?



It depends on the circumstances.  There is a fine line between what can be order and what can be expected.  With higher rank, comes higher expectations for certain social obligations.  Can they force you to pay them?  Probably not in the long run, but the real question is whether the money you save worth the social cost?

With regard to mess dinners, mess dress and mess dues, there is a lot of information contained in this thread.  Some of it is correct.  Some of it is wrong (some is REALLY wrong), but here is the bottom line:

1)  Mess membership is mandatory (CFAO 27-1)

2)  In a de facto sense, mess dues are mandatory, but there is no actual regulation that specifically says that.  Mess dues are governed by respective mess constitutions, which may require them.  By belonging to a mess, you must pay mess dues, IF your mess charges them, but there is no requirement for a mess to actually charge dues.  I bring this up because I've heard of cases where individuals were deployed to locations where the deployed "mess" did not charge dues, so their home mess tried to keep them paying based on the idea that "you have to pay mess dues somewhere."  This is not correct.

3)  Yes, you can be ordered to attend a mess dinner.

4)  Yes, Regular Force officers are required to have mess dress. 

I can expand on these, should anyone so desire.


----------



## dapaterson (18 Apr 2012)

You left out

"Yes, the traditional model of the mess as a class-based set of social clubs has far outlived its usefulness, and needs a dramatic restructure to make it relevant to current and future sailors, soliders and airmen and women."


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## MedCorps (18 Apr 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> 3)  Yes, you can be ordered to attend a mess dinner.
> 
> 4)  Yes, Regular Force officers are required to have mess dress.



See the General Court Martial - _R. v. Master Seaman R.J. Middlemiss,_ 2009 CM 1003 (16 Jan 2009) as case precedence. 

The Master Seaman did not want to go.  He did not go.  He was found guilty of Disobedience of a Lawful Command under s. 83 of the
National Defence Act and one count of Absence without Leave under s. 90 of the National Defence Act.

The mess dinner cost to be paid by the member was $35.00 

The fine, ordered by Col Dutil that MS Middlemiss paid was $500.00 

The math is pretty simple. 

MC


----------



## aesop081 (18 Apr 2012)

MedCorps said:
			
		

> The math is pretty simple.



The text of the decision is more interesting than the math, IMHO.


----------



## MedCorps (18 Apr 2012)

Agreed. 

MC


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## riggermade (18 Apr 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I'd like to see the CWO who could tell my wife "you will attend". I've tried that with her and got told...in no uncertain terms.
> 
> "The Man" cannot order your spouse to attend. Member - yes. Mess Dinners are parades.



You mean your wife never enjoyed going and being grouped with the rest of the wives while you drank and talked work with the boys?


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## my72jeep (18 Apr 2012)

Way back when I for sum moral reason, I cant think of any more, refused to attend Mess Dinners. I would let it be known that I didn't want to go and presto who ever was on duty that night and wanted to go payed my fee and I took the duty. To this day I can't understand what my objection to port ,wine, scotch and cigars was?


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## my72jeep (18 Apr 2012)

riggermade said:
			
		

> You mean your wife never enjoyed going and being grouped with the rest of the wives while you drank and talked work with the boys?


Was that grouped or groped?


----------



## riggermade (18 Apr 2012)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> Was that grouped or groped?



That came later when she was trying to get me out of my mess kit and I was a lovin' machine


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## Jarnhamar (18 Apr 2012)

Thread necromancerer- Tell those sgt's to bring same sex dates dressed in whatever outlandish dress they can get away with to the mess function.
Might not do the career so well might save them the monotony of another forced mess party in the future.
Plus guys are easy.


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## Pusser (19 Apr 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> You left out
> 
> "Yes, the traditional model of the mess as a class-based set of social clubs has far outlived its usefulness, and needs a dramatic restructure to make it relevant to current and future sailors, soliders and airmen and women."



I didn't leave that out.  I would never agree to such a statement.  If messes are so outdated, why are there so many non-military organizations trying to emulate them?  There are many in the military trying to get rid of something we have (for relatively low personal cost) that many in the civilian world are trying desperately to get, and for which they are willing to pay huge sums.


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## Pusser (19 Apr 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Thread necromancerer- Tell those sgt's to bring same sex dates dressed in whatever outlandish dress they can get away with to the mess function.
> Might not do the career so well might save them the monotony of another forced mess party in the future.
> Plus guys are easy.



Many years ago, a friend told me that he was once ordered to go to a function and to bring a date.  He showed up with a good friend and drinking buddy who also happened to a"lady of the evening" who was also well known to all the senior officers AND their wives.  He was never ordered to attend a function again.  My friend never avanced far in rank, but his career was certainly colourful!


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## Scott (19 Apr 2012)

How are those groups that emulate them doing, anyway? I hear Legion membership is booming...and I have never seen separate bars, but anyway, you keep to your point at all costs.

Sorry, but I hear debates about buttons, bows, curls and bullshit warming up.


----------



## Pusser (19 Apr 2012)

Scott said:
			
		

> How are those groups that emulate them doing, anyway? I hear Legion membership is booming...and I have never seen separate bars, but anyway, you keep to your point at all costs.
> 
> Sorry, but I hear debates about buttons, bows, curls and bullshit warming up.



Who said anything about the Legion?  They're a lost cause who've lost the bubble.  Look at all the private clubs that exist and are thriving.  Look at large corporations.  They all have things that analagous to our messes.  They just call them different things.


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## Strike (19 Apr 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Who said anything about the Legion?  They're a lost cause who've lost the bubble.  Look at all the private clubs that exist and are thriving.  Look at large corporations.  They all have things that analagous to our messes.  They just call them different things.



I agree.  Look at all the mucky-mucks who get on waiting lists to go to the Army/Vimy/Battle for the Atlantic balls/dinners.  Events like that are admired by our civilian counterparts but we still have people whinging about paying a few bucks once, maybe twice, a year and having to dress up.   :


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## Scott (19 Apr 2012)

Perhaps you should have been a little more clear about which private groups you meant.

Sorry, I have been in private industry for quite some time now and I have been to many of those dinners. None of them remind me of a messing system.

You're making pretty broad statements, IMO.


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## blacktriangle (19 Apr 2012)

The only time I enter the JR's mess is when ordered to do so or when not attending would be met with a worse alternative. Anyone know if we can donate our mess dues to charity or something instead? Very rarely do any of my friends (20's-30's) attend, so why would I? 

Mess dinners aren't that bad but I still am not a huge fan. Can't we just order some pizza or have a BBQ, and be done with it?


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## Fishbone Jones (19 Apr 2012)

Let's see.

RSM orders a Mess dinner and makes it a parade for all Sgts & WOs;

You can pay the tariff, enjoy all the amenities of the meals, conversation  and drinks;

                --------------or--------------

You attend, sit with your glass of water and no meal or drinks, partake of the conversation around you, wait until the guest speaker has had his say and leave after being dismissed by the RSM.

I don't see a problem. :dunno:


----------



## Pusser (19 Apr 2012)

Scott said:
			
		

> Perhaps you should have been a little more clear about which private groups you meant.
> 
> Sorry, I have been in private industry for quite some time now and I have been to many of those dinners. None of them remind me of a messing system.
> 
> You're making pretty broad statements, IMO.



Not identical and not necessarily universal, but the concept is similar and does exist.  Some police forces have messes as do some fire departments (particularly volunteer ones).  Many folks belong to are want to belong to private clubs, which one could argue are almost identical to messes.  In fact in some fields, club membership is a de facto requirement, often costing thousands of dollars.  It's interesting to note that the CF manual on dining standards actually says that dining rooms in the CF should conform to standards set by private industry.  That is, officers' messes are to be set at the same standard as that found in executive dining rooms of large corporations, etc.


----------



## Scott (19 Apr 2012)

For the most part you're comparing apples to bowling balls.

Re: fire departments - there might be rank structure, there might be a few buttons and bows (no curls), but there isn't a hell of a lot of exclusionary type behaviour - we wouldn't have anyone left if there was. The last Chief I know of who demanded to be referred to as such was punted by his own membership for being a power hungry dickhead.

Your argument gets weaker, buds.


----------



## aesop081 (19 Apr 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> That is, officers' messes *are to be set* at the same standard as that found in executive dining rooms of large corporations, etc.



"should"

This has less meaning these days as very locations have separate rank-based dinning facilities.


----------



## Scott (19 Apr 2012)

Probably less meaning, as well, because corps are trying to do away with that linen napkin BS. You can't claim as much of it as you might have five years ago.

Question: when folks from the "outside" attend these dinners mentioned previously, where does the money go? i.e., is it going into a welfare fund? Charity? Or straight into the coffers the rest of the funds hit?

I have a discretionary fund for dinners just like the ones mentioned and I use that fund to the max every single year. I have yet to hit one of the dinners not because I don't own a good enough suit but because I have either better things to do or I'm not in the country. I do not buy tickets to, say, Coady Celebrates, because I might meet the president of St FX. I buy because it's going someplace good and because I have the mans allocated.


----------



## OldSolduer (19 Apr 2012)

Spectrum said:
			
		

> The only time I enter the JR's mess is when ordered to do so or when not attending would be met with a worse alternative. Anyone know if we can donate our mess dues to charity or something instead? Very rarely do any of my friends (20's-30's) attend, so why would I?
> 
> Mess dinners aren't that bad but I still am not a huge fan. Can't we just order some pizza or have a BBQ, and be done with it?



Not attending is your prerogative, but relationships are formed at the mess. That carries over to the floor, where you might know someone that knows someone who can help you if you or be of your troops has an issue.

You cannot donate your mess dues to charity AFAIK.


----------



## MedCorps (19 Apr 2012)

There are weeks when I get more done in one four our TGIF / TGIT in the mess then I do all week in the office.  

Lots of things get discussed, worldly problems solved, and relationships formed both inside and outside your unit. 

MC


----------



## dimsum (19 Apr 2012)

MedCorps said:
			
		

> There are weeks when I get more done in one four our TGIF / TGIT in the mess then I do all week in the office.
> Lots of things get discussed, worldly problems solved, and *relationships formed both inside and outside your unit. *
> 
> MC



Bolded for emphasis.  It's like any other group in that it's "who you know" more so than "what you know" in many cases.  Businesses do networking events for a reason; we already have all of that set up.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (20 Apr 2012)

Scott said:
			
		

> Probably less meaning, as well, because corps are trying to do away with that linen napkin BS. You can't claim as much of it as you might have five years ago.
> 
> Question: when folks from the "outside" attend these dinners mentioned previously, where does the money go? i.e., is it going into a welfare fund? Charity? Or straight into the coffers the rest of the funds hit?
> 
> I have a discretionary fund for dinners just like the ones mentioned and I use that fund to the max every single year. I have yet to hit one of the dinners not because I don't own a good enough suit but because I have either better things to do or I'm not in the country. I do not buy tickets to, say, Coady Celebrates, because I might meet the president of St FX. I buy because it's going someplace good and because I have the mans allocated.



You have to be invited first  ;D


----------



## Pusser (20 Apr 2012)

Scott said:
			
		

> For the most part you're comparing apples to bowling balls.
> 
> Re: fire departments - there might be rank structure, there might be a few buttons and bows (no curls), but there isn't a hell of a lot of exclusionary type behaviour - we wouldn't have anyone left if there was. The last Chief I know of who demanded to be referred to as such was punted by his own membership for being a power hungry fool.
> 
> Your argument gets weaker, buds.



I'm talking about the concept of a mess as a fraternal social organization in general.  Whether messes are established for each rank, rank group, or not at all is not the  point.  The point is that there are many social organizations out there that are similar to our messes and are thriving.  You're inferring too much specific detail from what I'm saying.

On the subject of separate messes for each rank group, it may be appropriate for some organizations, but not others.  It depends on the nature of the organization.  Dividing the golf and country club dining rooms by income or golf handicap could prove disastrous, but I think it works well in a military environment.  Does Cpl Bloggins really want to have a beer under the watchful eye of Col Atkins all the time?


----------



## aesop081 (20 Apr 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> but I think it works well in a military environment.



Speak for the RCN if you want but saying "military environment" is going a bit far. It works poorly from an RCAF perspective (at least aircrews, which i can speak to)

Good example : A CP-140 crew. Can't go to traditional messes for a beer after a mission because 10 people span everything from Private to LCol.

All-ranks messes, hands down.


----------



## MedCorps (20 Apr 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> All-ranks messes, hands down.



If the messes were all ranks where would the officers go to gossip about the NCMs and hold mock-PER boards?  

MC


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## aesop081 (20 Apr 2012)

MedCorps said:
			
		

> If the messes were all ranks where would the officers go to gossip about the NCMs and hold mock-PER boards?
> 
> MC



I don't know. Go to an all-ranks mess and see.  ;D

Best idea i have seen so far is the Greenwood mess ( and i hate everything else about that place so saying i like something about says alot). Rank-specific rooms for use as required and one all-ranks bar in another room.

Guess which is the only one routinely used.


----------



## blacktriangle (20 Apr 2012)

I would have to agree with Cdn Aviator. If it's all about "who you know" (and I'd say that's not far off sometimes) why would I even want to go to the JR's? Basically everyone that can really "help me out" and mentor me at this point are members of the WO's and Sgt's mess. I've only been a guest there a few times - usually if someone of that rank wants to hang out with subordinates, it's done in a public setting or at someone's residence (BBQ) While not an everyday occurence, that just seems to be easier than going to the mess. 

The few people I'd actually want to talk to and can still learn something from in the JR's tend to have families or other things going on. They don't go to JR's either.


----------



## OldSolduer (20 Apr 2012)

From my perspective, we need the three mess system. Cdn Aviator - Greenwood has it right for the RCAF and the location.

I do not want some out of control know  it all with three minutes in the Army telling me what has to change, be he commissioned or an NCM. And perhaps using the 50 cal finger as well....we all know whe that goes.


----------



## aesop081 (20 Apr 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> From my perspective, we need the three mess system. Cdn Aviator - Greenwood has it right for the RCAF and the location.
> 
> I do not want some out of control know  it all with three minutes in the Army telling me what has to change, be he commissioned or an NCM. And perhaps using the 50 cal finger as well....we all know whe that goes.



Yup, i agree with you. For the CA, i understand why separate messes work. I have to admit that, when i was a MCpl instructing in Gagetown, there were times where i would have loved a MCpl's lounge. I can't speak for the RCN as i was never a member of it.

All i wanted to say was that this:



			
				Pusser said:
			
		

> but I think it works well in a military environment.



was too much of a generalization. It works well in *some* military environments. Even some non-RCAF smaller facilities (CFS Leitrim for example) have all-ranks messes and the world has yet to end.


----------



## OldSolduer (20 Apr 2012)

It all depends on mess membership, numbers, level of training, level of professionalism etc. I can understand why RCAF flight crews want to stick together, it's all about the team.
In the CA, Niner and Nin Charlie should not have to put up its the likes of me when I was one of the know it alls. Now everyone has to put up with me.... ;D


----------



## aesop081 (20 Apr 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Now everyone has to put up with me.... ;D



 ;D

Ok, so here's a thought:

The officer's mess will have everyone from the newest 2LT who knows everything to the 4-ring brigade commander who actually knows everything. If they can make it work (believe me, i have seen junior officers tell the big boss what needs to change and doing it with the .50 finger), what makes use so different that we cannot do it without problems ?


----------



## blacktriangle (20 Apr 2012)

Jim,

I respect your opinion and experience.

The military can keep the current system. I will continue to happily pay my mess dues and only enter the mess when obligated to for my employment - along with a fair percentage of my peers. 

FWIW, The RCAF is not the only org in which members of all three messes work closely and in tight groups. CDN Aviator's example is probably the best though - and does raise some questions about the current system. 

With that said, I will bow out of this thread now with respect to the opinions and experience that some of you have. That, and the discussion is not really worth the amount I pay for my mess. That might change should I move up to another mess - I've heard quite a few of you don't get off quite so easy when it comes to your dues! 

Cheers. 

(and CDN has beat me to it on one of my points)


----------



## medicineman (20 Apr 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> It all depends on mess membership, numbers, level of training, level of professionalism etc. I can understand why RCAF flight crews want to stick together, it's all about the team.
> In the CA, Niner and Nin Charlie should not have to put up its the likes of me when I was one of the know it alls. Now everyone has to put up with me.... ;D



9C gets to put up with what someone might become when they get promoted into the Mess though...know it alls with 3 hooks and a leaf.  I loved those folks - I only ever had one BOS in 2 years with 2RCR.

MM


----------



## MARS (20 Apr 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I can't speak for the RCN as i was never a member of it.



The RCN takes things a step further - out of the unique necessity of living on a relatively small tin can with a finite amount of real estate - in that the CO is _not_ part of the Wardroom/Officer's Mess.  He or she has his or her own bar and takes his or her meals in their cabin.

This is so the Ship's Officers have a secure space in which to ***** about the "old man's" particular decisions.


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 Apr 2012)

The "mess" can be a great place to build friendships and bond with your peers. I was dragged to a TGIT last week-first time in 5 or 6 years +. Had a great time. I was surprised at how many people showed up. Had a great opportunity to approach people thank them tell them they've been doing a great job, buy them a drink etc..

Forcing members to attend mess functions leaves a bad taste in peoples mouths. With the amount of nights soldiers spend on duty, working late, exercise's a soldiers free time is very important. Yea it's "only one night" but every night is important.  Seems like more often than not 90% of the people show up just for the other 10% to enjoy it.

Given the language, behaviors, warstories and egos at mess functions I'll never bring my partner to one.

Forcing members to attend seems archaic, the same way forcing privates to serve coffee and cookies to SNCOs on Wendsdays were.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (21 Apr 2012)

WO's got cookies and coffee too, not just Snr NCOs.     (My personal favorite was the toast and coffee at the Officers, WOs and Sgts Mess in the Mega.  B Div bullpen was right next to it.  But...we served ourselves.  Polished my owns boots n stuff too!)

And yes even that worked, we had all the baby Officers on SLT there, etc and no riots happened.


----------



## Scott (30 Apr 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> I'm talking about the concept of a mess as a fraternal social organization in general.  Whether messes are established for each rank, rank group, or not at all is not the  point.  The point is that there are many social organizations out there that are similar to our messes and are thriving.  You're inferring too much specific detail from what I'm saying.



Pardon me, I was carefully considering the source.


----------



## Sub_Guy (5 Jun 2012)

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> Didn't Vern address this before. It seems she had a member who wouldn't pay but was still told to attend, and wasn't served a meal but still had to sit there for the dinner!



If someone were so inclined to refuse to pay for the dinner, could he/she bring their own?  I can't seem to find any reference stating otherwise.

On a side note, now that we are on the points system, why aren't the bowtie and white shirt available to us from Logistik?  I had a read through the dress manual and it states that mess dress is optional for NCM's, so is the white shirt and tie optional?   Before I would have been told "you get 17.30 a month for this kind of crap".


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## armyvern (5 Jun 2012)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> If someone were so inclined to refuse to pay for the dinner, could he/she bring their own?  I can't seem to find any reference stating otherwise.


There probably isn't a reference, so they probably could bring a dinner with them ...

Personally, I think that if I refused to pay and was then ordered to attend that _that_ would be the first and major clue that bringing in a Happy Meal in a bag (or other meal) wouldn't be such a swift move. Given the normal Mess Dinner start timings, there'd be no reason the member could not have eaten his meal prior to attending. If they didn't do that, then they are just pushing switches and trying "to make a point". Point is, we get paid for this stuff (mil factor) and it *IS* part of the job (as shown in the linked court martial results: are people missing that bit when they read it?) so the actual point that would come out of it certainly wouldn't be favorable to the one who thinks he's "got a point to make". Such a move would be extremely unfavorable and silly in my books.



> On a side note, now that we are on the points system, why aren't the bowtie and white shirt available to us from Logistik?  I had a read through the dress manual and it states that mess dress is optional for NCM's, so is the white shirt and tie optional?   Before I would have been told "you get 17.30 a month for this kind of crap".



Because your CUA (Clothing Upkeep Allowance) used to be paid for maintaining and replacing Permanent Allotment Kit items ... ie your DEUs. Mess Kit never was and still is NOT P.A.K.; nor were haircuts, bootpolish etc covered by CUA.


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## aesop081 (5 Jun 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> There probably isn't a reference, so they probably could bring a dinner with them ...



A few years ago, i was at a mess dinner, sitting next to a Major that Dolphin_Hunter knows, when he had 3 pizzas delivered to our end of the table. Delivery guy walked into the mess, to the dining room and brought them right to us prior to the meal being served.


----------



## armyvern (5 Jun 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> A few years ago, i was at a mess dinner, sitting next to a Major that Dolphin_Hunter knows, when he had 3 pizzas delivered to our end of the table. Delivery guy walked into the mess, to the dining room and brought them right to us prior to the meal being served.



You sure I wasn't there?  ;D 

I spent Christmas and New Years leave doing Base Duty O for stopping by Greco on the way to a Mess Dinner, Ordering and Paying for a Pizza, then having it delivered to "Guest X" at the head table for 2100hrs. Dude knew nothing about it yet somehow the RSM knew it was me instantaneously; go figure.

I posted that story on this site quite a few years ago; sounds like someone has stolen my gag!


----------



## Fishbone Jones (5 Jun 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> A few years ago, i was at a mess dinner, sitting next to a Major that Dolphin_Hunter knows, when he had 3 pizzas delivered to our end of the table. Delivery guy walked into the mess, to the dining room and brought them right to us prior to the meal being served.




However CA, a 'Mess' dinner connotates a military event.

Something we all know the Air Force is loath to undertake and incapable of performing anyway. ;D


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## aesop081 (5 Jun 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> However CA, a 'Mess' dinner connotates a military event.
> 
> Something we all know the Air Force is loath to undertake and incapable of performing anyway. ;D



Meh.....works for us.


----------



## armyvern (5 Jun 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> By the sounds of Vern's mess dinner, i would say that the RCAF is doing just fine  ;D



I absolutely love Mess Dinners. I think they're a blast.  ;D

I went to an AF one while posted in Trenton and it wasn't quite the same, but perhaps I was just a wee bit shier waaaayyyy back then.  8)


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## dogger1936 (5 Jun 2012)

My last few years at the regiment had mostly mixed Officer/NCO dinners with no problems at all. Infact with the sheer number of mess dinners it was nice to have a crowd to vary conversation!

Best thing in the world is toast and coffee at the mess. The amount of planning that happens there is sheer awesome. Bagels keep the regiment running.


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## PMedMoe (5 Jun 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> but perhaps I was just a wee bit shier waaaayyyy back then.  8)



What were you, five?


----------



## 2 Cdo (6 Jun 2012)

Now that I am fully retired I think back to all the things I'll miss in the CF, and near the top is mess dinners! Loved them, actually wished they had them more often when I was in!


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## Sub_Guy (10 Jun 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Because your CUA (Clothing Upkeep Allowance) used to be paid for maintaining and replacing Permanent Allotment Kit items ... ie your DEUs. Mess Kit never was and still is NOT P.A.K.; nor were haircuts, bootpolish etc covered by CUA.



Agreed, but couldn't a NCM (because it is not written anywhere that we shall obtain mess dress), fight being forced to pay for a white shirt and bow tie?  

For the record I do own a bow tie and many, many white shirts, and I really like the idea of showing up with a happy meal, better yet a bucket of KFC...


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## dimsum (10 Jun 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> A few years ago, i was at a mess dinner, sitting next to a Major that Dolphin_Hunter knows, when he had 3 pizzas delivered to our end of the table. Delivery guy walked into the mess, to the dining room and brought them right to us prior to the meal being served.



Bit of a long shot, but said Major wouldn't be associated with a certain Flintstones character, would he?  If so, he also rocked up at a Mess Dinner (which you were probably there for) wearing his flying boots instead of Oxfords, which I think I'll start doing here  ;D


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## Kalatzi (10 Jun 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Speak for the RCN if you want but saying "military environment" is going a bit far. It works poorly from an RCAF perspective (at least aircrews, which i can speak to)
> 
> Good example : A CP-140 crew. Can't go to traditional messes for a beer after a mission because 10 people span everything from Private to LCol.
> 
> All-ranks messes, hands down.



I'm pretty sure that the junior ranks would welcome visitor's to their mess.


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## a_majoor (10 Jun 2012)

Years ago in London, it became a habit to drop into the Kelsey's across the road from base for dinner on Thursday nights (saved long trips home, a frantic dash for dinner only to drive back for 1900h). After a while, people simply congregated at the same table and had dinner and the occasional drink together in a social setting. This later expanded to class A people getting together in the same Kelsey's after work, with no one being worse for wear that I ever noticed. 

Sadly, this practice was forcibly ended once the various messes noticed their bar receipts were declining...


----------



## Good2Golf (10 Jun 2012)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> ...Sadly, this practice was forcibly ended once the various messes noticed their bar receipts were declining...



By being ordered not to go to a certain restaurant once off duty?  How does that work?  ???



			
				Kalatzi said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure that the junior ranks would welcome visitor's to their mess.



The idea of an all-ranks social centre is that folks have the choice of going to their own messes, or socializing together.  Various ranks visiting each others' messes on a regular basis, invited or not, does not provide the 'refuge' from others that is one of the aspects of the messing structure.

 :2c:

Regards
G2G


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## aesop081 (10 Jun 2012)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Bit of a long shot, but said Major wouldn't be associated with a certain Flintstones character, would he?



Not, not him.


----------



## Jarnhamar (10 Jun 2012)

Kalatzi said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure that the junior ranks would welcome visitor's to their mess.



Not so sure. I've been given the "are you almost done that drink?....." by a CSM after being invited to the SNCOs mess by the Ops O (a WO) only to have the same CSM walk into the JRs mess and grab drinks when his mess closed up for the night.

I've had to ask SNCOs to leave the JRs because they were uninvited and the troops weren't comfortable drinking around them.

It takes a very mature and team oriented mind set (a la CDN Aviator's example) for an all ranks mess.


----------



## Pat in Halifax (10 Jun 2012)

I am sure you have heard it all before but bare with me. The Chiefs and POs (or WOs and Sgts) Mess is the only one you have to EARN your way into. I don't know about some of you but as humorous as I find it, Messes SHOULD NOT intermingle (with the exception of special ocassions like Christmas or other such events).
I have kicked my fair share of OS, AB, LS, MS and while we are at it Cdrs and once even a Cmdre out of the Mess I worked too f***ing hard to get into. 
It sounds like you guys might have a serious problem!?


----------



## aesop081 (10 Jun 2012)

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> Messes SHOULD NOT intermingle



The RCN : 100 years of tradition unimpeded by progress.

If it works for the Navy, you can keep it that way there. In my RCAF, not so much.

I can understand working hard to get into the C&POs mess after seeing the differing standards between A-Block and Juno tower. "Know your men and promote their welfare" ..........


----------



## Jarnhamar (10 Jun 2012)

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> The Chiefs and POs (or WOs and Sgts) Mess is the only one you have to EARN your way into.


 ;D


----------



## aesop081 (10 Jun 2012)

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> The Chiefs and POs (or WOs and Sgts) Mess is the only one you have to EARN your way into. I



Every private in the CF has earned his/her way into the JR mess as well. Every officer in the CF has had to earn his/her right to stay in theirs. When i look around the Sgts & WOs mess, i see more than one person who got there by sticking around long enough without "earning" it.


----------



## Journeyman (10 Jun 2012)

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> I am sure you have heard it all before but bare with me.


 I assume you meant "bear" with me -- unless your Mess is...._different._



> The Chiefs and POs (or WOs and Sgts) Mess is the only one you have to EARN your way into


  _~yawn~_


----------



## Stoker (10 Jun 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> The RCN : 100 years of tradition unimpeded by progress.
> 
> If it works for the Navy, you can keep it that way there. In my RCAF, not so much.
> 
> I can understand working hard to get into the C&POs mess after seeing the differing standards between A-Block and Juno tower. "Know your men and promote their welfare" ..........



Any ship I have been on inter messing has been strictly forbidden. We eat, sleep and work in a confined area, the mess is a refuge from the stresses of work and more importantly from a Jr's perspective their boss.
Yes I have seen how the RCAF works, Jr's calling their bosses by their first names and other familiarities, here's one for you " familiarity breeds contempt". I go out of my way on the ship to stay away from the Jr's mess, especially when I may have to send one of those Jr's into harms way. A Jr upon joining is automatically a mbr of the mess, as a C & PO we get promoted into our mess.


----------



## Journeyman (10 Jun 2012)

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> ....here's one for you " familiarity breeds contempt".


Contempt, like respect, is earned; sorry to hear about your insecurity.


----------



## aesop081 (10 Jun 2012)

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> here's one for you " familiarity breeds contempt".



And yet we all followed each other into battle in Libya..............



			
				Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> especially when I may have to send one of those Jr's into harms way.



That's the key. I don't send people into harm's way. I go with them, leading the way. 




> A Jr upon joining is automatically a mbr of the mess, as a C & PO we get promoted into our mess.



News flash, when they join and report to CFLRS, recruits are part of the recruit mess, not the JRC. Only once they have passed BMQ do they become members of a JRC. It is small but they earned it.


----------



## Good2Golf (10 Jun 2012)

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> ...The Chiefs and POs (or WOs and Sgts) Mess is the only one you have to EARN your way into...



Indeed....I can imagine the wording in Part 6 of a Master Seaman's PER:

"MS Bloggins has earned the right to mess with the Chiefs and POs - promote now!"


----------



## dimsum (10 Jun 2012)

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Any ship I have been on inter messing has been strictly forbidden. We eat, sleep and work in a confined area, the mess is a refuge from the stresses of work and more importantly from a Jr's perspective their boss.
> Yes I have seen how the RCAF works, Jr's calling their bosses by their first names and other familiarities, here's one for you " familiarity breeds contempt". I go out of my way on the ship to stay away from the Jr's mess, especially when I may have to send one of those Jr's into harms way. A Jr upon joining is automatically a mbr of the mess, as a C & PO we get promoted into our mess.



Chief, when I was BWK and DECKO in the MCDVs I didn't notice a huge difference from where I am now (and then) in the RCAF.  Small-ship mentality and aircrew mentality aren't that far apart.  Yes, we will call each other by first names in the RCAF sometimes but I've noticed that when not at sea, the MCDV crews do go out together and drink together.  I and my housemates had many a house party back in Esquimalt that several crews from OS to LT(N) showed up to (even the occasional LCdr if an NRD is in town.)  

One of the reasons (a pretty flimsy one but it's one still) that the RCAF doesn't seem as hierarchical is that rank doesn't equal positional authority in aircraft crews.  If I remember correctly (CDN Av you can back me up on this), one of the old COs (LCol) in Comox was a Navigator-Communicator, with a Capt as his Tactical Coordinator and "boss" in the 10 or so hours in the air.  Same goes with where I am posted now.


----------



## Stoker (11 Jun 2012)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Chief, when I was BWK and DECKO in the MCDVs I didn't notice a huge difference from where I am now (and then) in the RCAF.  Small-ship mentality and aircrew mentality aren't that far apart.  Yes, we will call each other by first names in the RCAF sometimes but I've noticed that when not at sea, the MCDV crews do go out together and drink together.  I and my housemates had many a house party back in Esquimalt that several crews from OS to LT(N) showed up to (even the occasional LCdr if an NRD is in town.)
> 
> One of the reasons (a pretty flimsy one but it's one still) that the RCAF doesn't seem as hierarchical is that rank doesn't equal positional authority in aircraft crews.  If I remember correctly (CDN Av you can back me up on this), one of the old COs (LCol) in Comox was a Navigator-Communicator, with a Capt as his Tactical Coordinator and "boss" in the 10 or so hours in the air.  Same goes with where I am posted now.



Fair enough and I concede that the crews do mix together while ashore sometimes, however I maintain inter messing on board ship is a no no and eventually will erode good order and discipline.

Your right I think the RCAF is very non hierarchical and I hear that a lot especially from friends who have CT's to air force trades and in a lot of ways its like working in a civy shop compared to what their used to in the Navy.  On board ship my position could possibly cause me to send Jr personnel in hazardous situations, I would perfer not to know these personnel on that sort of basis that could cause me or others to hesitate in making those sort of decisions and thus put the ships safety in jeopardy.


----------



## Stoker (11 Jun 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> And yet we all followed each other into battle in Libya..............
> 
> I'm glad it worked out for you in Libya.  In the Navy its something that we like to follow and we also went to Libya.
> 
> ...


----------



## Good2Golf (11 Jun 2012)

Chief Stoker, I agree with you that aside from special/rare exceptions, such as Christmas "At Home" or other such events and in addition to the valid operational concerns you noted, that as a general rule, the respective messes provide their members with a 'social refuge', and that is just as valid for any rank grouping from any other - Recruit, JR, Sgt & WOs/Chiefs and POs, and Officers alike.  

Separate from these messes, as I noted in an earlier post, I believe that there is also a place for group social events, either _ad hoc_, say on the flight deck during a sailing deployment or in a squadron's hangar during an operational pause, or established as a permanent fixture such as a base or wing or dockyard social centre.  It should be understood that attendance, particularly at permanently established all-ranks social facilities, implies no particular 'social refuge' _per se_, but also that social interaction at such facilities be conducted in a mutually respective and appropriate manner.


Regards
G2G


----------



## Fishbone Jones (11 Jun 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> News flash, when they join and report to CFLRS, recruits are part of the recruit mess, not the JRC. Only once they have passed BMQ do they become members of a JRC. It is small but they earned it.



I find it pretty comical that a recruit passing BMQ equates to a Snr NCO making Sgt or PO in the RCAF. I find it appropriate the Air Force equates a Pte to a Senior Tech. 

 :sarcasm: I'm sure the Air Force finds both ranks interchangeable.  :sarcasm:

I have been AF and know to which I speak.

Cdn Aviator needs to stay where he's posted, obviously, there's ton's of LAC's to do his job, including any Mess jobs he might be assigned.  



 ;D


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## Fishbone Jones (11 Jun 2012)

Before things get too carried away, there are places like the Curling Club, Bowling Alley or the local Hug & Slug that ORs can mix with Senior Ranks. Hell, go to, and support the Legion!

My Mess is my refuge, if you're not a member (or invited for some rare occasion), stay the fuck out.


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## Tank Troll (11 Jun 2012)

:goodpost:

 Airforce can do what they like, don't really care what they do as long as they don't do it in my mess. If I want to inter mingle with people that are a different rank then me, and have them tell me how much more they know, or if they were incharge how the would run thing, then I just come on here and see whats the latest line.


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## Journeyman (11 Jun 2012)

For clarity, I'm fully on the side of those who don't want riff-raff (ie - _others_) in my Mess. 

My contribution was solely concerning "know your troops and promote their well-being" being a tenuous first step towards "familiarity breeds contempt."   :


----------



## Stoker (11 Jun 2012)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Chief Stoker, I agree with you that aside from special/rare exceptions, such as Christmas "At Home" or other such events and in addition to the valid operational concerns you noted, that as a general rule, the respective messes provide their members with a 'social refuge', and that is just as valid for any rank grouping from any other - Recruit, JR, Sgt & WOs/Chiefs and POs, and Officers alike.
> 
> Separate from these messes, as I noted in an earlier post, I believe that there is also a place for group social events, either _ad hoc_, say on the flight deck during a sailing deployment or in a squadron's hangar during an operational pause, or established as a permanent fixture such as a base or wing or dockyard social centre.  It should be understood that attendance, particularly at permanently established all-ranks social facilities, implies no particular 'social refuge' _per se_, but also that social interaction at such facilities be conducted in a mutually respective and appropriate manner.
> 
> ...


I wholeheartedly agree. Onboard we interact through banyans, cocktail parties and the like and ashore there are all rank functions.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (11 Jun 2012)

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> I am sure you have heard it all before but bare with me. The Chiefs and POs (or WOs and Sgts) Mess is the only one you have to EARN your way into. I don't know about some of you but as humorous as I find it, Messes SHOULD NOT intermingle (with the exception of special ocassions like Christmas or other such events).
> I have kicked my fair share of OS, AB, LS, MS and while we are at it Cdrs and once even a Cmdre out of the Mess I worked too f***ing hard to get into.
> It sounds like you guys might have a serious problem!?



That being said, guess you haven't been to CFS ST.JOHN'S then as both the SNCO and Officers mess has been combined for many years and seems to be working all right.....


----------



## Sub_Guy (11 Jun 2012)

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> I wholeheartedly agree. On board we interact through banyans, cocktail parties and the like and ashore there are all rank functions.



And yet the level of respect from the junior to senior peers, just isn't there.  I have sailed on numerous surface vessels, and since switching over to the RCAF, I have noticed the level of respect among the crews, is much higher, and it was the same on the sub.  

I don't know what it is, but it is a completely different work environment, and much more professional.
  
The RCN has a system in which they think is working, but is it?  Sure from the rank of PO2 and up, you get treated pretty damn good, from MS down, you get treated with a lot less respect, the accommodations issue alone is evident of that. 

On the Aurora we have to take out the crapper, and pisser when we land, how much do you want to make a bet that if the Navy was running the show, the Ptes would be tasked with that duty at the end of every flight?

I realize that is a small example, but I don't think I am far off in making that statement.    

So maybe that's why the all ranks mess works in the RCAF and small units, because the level of respect is higher.  Even if you could all drink in the same mess in the Navy, who would want to?  From reading on here, all the senior ranks don't want it, and I am willing to bet you won't find a Junior member who supports it either.


----------



## aesop081 (11 Jun 2012)

A few years ago, the WCWO "invited" all the Sgts & WOs to the mess one morning for a talk. He went on for about an hour about how lowsy were were for not supporting the mess as it was going under. He berated us repeatedly for going into town on Fridays rather than going to TGIF and was even more irate because people were having their DWDs in town.

When the idea of a combined mess came up, he said "if you want to drink with f*****g Corporals then go in to town !!!!"

Well, yeah. We are.


----------



## CountDC (11 Jun 2012)

:rofl:

Worked Navy, Army and Air Force and what I have learned is every place has a system that works for them.

For the Navy sitting on a ship I think the seperate mess is the best way.  It is the one place where you can get away from each other and bitch about the boss or subordinates.  Adding an all ranks mess just isn't possible on a something where real estate is at prime.

Most army bases should have the seperate messes available along with an all ranks mess.  Gives the bitch area along with unit cohession areas for all possibilites with out the need to go off base which presents its own problems.

Air Force - isn't that the Civillain branch??  Why a mess??(couldn't resist).    The all ranks mess is the best for them but I like to have a seperate mess or section for those of us that are not aircrew and want to have a drink and bitch session without the boss or subordinate  there.

In the end it is a matter of what works for the location and people there.


----------



## OldSolduer (11 Jun 2012)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Sadly, this practice was forcibly ended once the various messes noticed their bar receipts were declining...



And how was/is this legal?


----------



## X Royal (12 Jun 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> And how was/is this legal?


My guess is they were going in uniform. I can't see many bringing a change of clothing for after the training night.
If off duty and wearing civilian clothing not much could be done to reservists.


----------



## bcbarman (12 Jul 2012)

Speaking of combined Officer/Sr NCO messes there is a inherent problem in that the numbers of both messes are small compared to that of the Jr's. (at least in the reserves, larger bases probably do better) 

I do have an issue with combined messes but I strongly support a combined Bar.  If laid out correctly, you can have a wraparound bar that serves both messes, lowering costs while still separating the two messes.  One bartender, one fridge and one stock, separate rooms, and you divide the profits down the middle (even though the Sgt mess will be drinking 3-4 times more)

If you want to drink with the troops, bring a case of beer to a neutral location or go to a pub.


----------



## aesop081 (12 Jul 2012)

bcbarman said:
			
		

> If you want to drink with the troops, bring a case of beer to a neutral location or go to a pub.



Which is what happens at some bases, hence why the messes there are dying. It's always nice getting b****ed at by the base Chief for not supporting the mess though.


----------



## beach_bum (12 Jul 2012)

I understand why a combined mess doesn't work everywhere, but it does here.  I have friends of all ranks and enjoy being able to have a drink in the mess with them. We have never had a problem here.


----------



## Jarnhamar (12 Jul 2012)

Pants Down Time.


----------



## Pat in Halifax (12 Jul 2012)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> That being said, guess you haven't been to CFS ST.JOHN'S then as both the SNCO and Officers mess has been combined for many years and seems to be working all right.....



We are talking designated and NOT mixed Messes here. I too have been posted to places where the Mess itself is a combined Mess with little or no issues. I am talking about specific Jnr rates, Snr rates and Officer's Messes.


----------



## a_majoor (12 Jul 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> And how was/is this legal?



Combination of most people did not bother to change clothes and the usual berating people for not supporting the mess ("why our profits are down "x"% because you aren't supporting the mess"; as if someone else's profit margin is our concern). 

The manager of Kelsey's does not _demand_ your custom (nor can he _order_ you to spend money in his establishment), he invites it by offering something that his/her customers desire at the price they are willing to pay. Something struggling messes might give a little thought to.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (22 Apr 2018)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> That's the military factor in your pay. Much like being ordered to attend and pay for a mess dinner.



That is actually not correct; you can be ordered to attend a mess dinner, but not to pay for it.  You could sit there like an idiot while every eats and has a great time around you, but you can't be ordered to pay.  (However, I don't know anyone who has ever done that and I hope I never meet someone who is 'that kind' of person   :nod



> I'm sure officers get enough money, they can cover the mess kit cost. I did it as a MCpl with 2 kids and a car payment, its not that expensive.



But, that isn't the issue, whether they can afford it.  It is the validity in making it a requirement to have, and expecting the member to pay out of pocket for it.  For you (and I) it was optional and we both did it, but that was our choice.  

What could the CAF do, reasonably, to someone who said "no, I will not spend $1700 of my own money on a uniform".  It is lawful to order someone to pay $1700 of their own money on something required for use by the military?  Because if the military told me "you are going on this trip but you have to pay for your hotels yourself"...I wouldn't be going on that trip.  Why is a mess kit any different?  If it is truly a requirement, why it is not provided by the Crown?


----------



## jollyjacktar (22 Apr 2018)

A leave pass is another solution.


----------



## OldSolduer (22 Apr 2018)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> A leave pass is another solution.



Which will probably be denied despite any regulation that says it can’t be denied.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (22 Apr 2018)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> That is actually not correct; you can be ordered to attend a mess dinner, but not to pay for it.  You could sit there like an idiot while every eats and has a great time around you, but you can't be ordered to pay.  (However, I don't know anyone who has ever done that and I hope I never meet someone who is 'that kind' of person   :nod
> 
> But, that isn't the issue, whether they can afford it.  It is the validity in making it a requirement to have, and expecting the member to pay out of pocket for it.  For you (and I) it was optional and we both did it, but that was our choice.
> 
> What could the CAF do, reasonably, to someone who said "no, I will not spend $1700 of my own money on a uniform".  It is lawful to order someone to pay $1700 of their own money on something required for use by the military?  Because if the military told me "you are going on this trip but you have to pay for your hotels yourself"...I wouldn't be going on that trip.  Why is a mess kit any different?  If it is truly a requirement, why it is not provided by the Crown?



You could also make the same argument about Mess Dues. Why should members be forced to pay Mess Dues when it is a requirement to be a part of a Mess?


----------



## jollyjacktar (22 Apr 2018)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Which will probably be denied despite any regulation that says it can’t be denied.



It hasn't to date.  I've never attended a mess dinner and plan to keep it that way.


----------



## OldSolduer (22 Apr 2018)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> It hasn't to date.  I've never attended a mess dinner and plan to keep it that way.



That’s cause you’re RCN....


----------



## Eye In The Sky (22 Apr 2018)

Eaglelord17 said:
			
		

> You could also make the same argument about Mess Dues. Why should members be forced to pay Mess Dues when it is a requirement to be a part of a Mess?



The counter-argument might be different;  if people stop buying mess kits, Andrea's will feel it.   If people stop paying mess dues, entire Mess's would close in short order (IMO).  

Mess membership (which comes with dues) are a requirement for ALL CAF mbr's, though.  Mess kits only apply to the smaller % in sheer numbers;  Reg Force Commissioned Officers.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (22 Apr 2018)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> The counter-argument might be different;  if people stop buying mess kits, Andrea's will feel it.   If people stop paying mess dues, entire Mess's would close in short order (IMO).
> 
> Mess membership (which comes with dues) are a requirement for ALL CAF mbr's, though.  Mess kits only apply to the smaller % in sheer numbers;  Reg Force Commissioned Officers.



Still it is essentially theft from the members, you force them to belong to a organisation that they may not wish to belong to, and then force them to pay to be a part of it. If it is a requirement for service it should be paid for just like all other things that are required for service (be it service arms, uniforms, food, etc.). On top of that different messes have different pricing dependant on the specific mess, so you could argue a increased hardship depending on location which is something you are also unable to control.


----------



## jollyjacktar (22 Apr 2018)

If members, given a choice, opted out of mess membership in such numbers that operations had to cease, would it be such a bad thing?  In this scenario, it would suggest it wasn't an institution that was on the whole, required by the majority of members.  

Maybe that is what should be the normal evolution in military social activities?


----------



## armyvern (22 Apr 2018)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> A leave pass is another solution.



Nah; it's an excuse.


----------



## jollyjacktar (22 Apr 2018)

But one that I'll take nevertheless.  I'll leave mess dinners to those of you that wish to participate.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (22 Apr 2018)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> But one that I'll take nevertheless.  I'll leave mess dinners to those of you that wish to participate.


Some of us don’t like the repricusions. Something about it being a parade therefore mandatory.


----------



## a_majoor (22 Apr 2018)

Eaglelord17 said:
			
		

> You could also make the same argument about Mess Dues. Why should members be forced to pay Mess Dues when it is a requirement to be a part of a Mess?



All anyone really has to do is walk past a mess and look in the windows. I have served for many years and across many different bases and the vast majority of the time, regardless of where I go, the place is empty or has only a small handful of people inside. If _they_ want to go that is fine, the real argument is why should everyone else be forced to pay for their entertainment choices?


----------



## jollyjacktar (22 Apr 2018)

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> Some of us don’t like the repricusions. Something about it being a parade therefore mandatory.



You pays your money you take your chances, as the saying goes.  Besides, there's far more members here than can attend.  And if one has a signed and stamped pass...it's worth a day's leave for me.


----------



## captloadie (23 Apr 2018)

I have a friend who works in a Senior position at a civilian company. It isn't a huge company, and his salary is comparable to a senior Capt/Major. While the office norm is shirt and tie, suits are expected at business meetings. There is the occasional Black Tie affair he is invited to, where a tux is the expectation (and a formal dress for the spouse if attending). Guess what? He doesn't get a clothing allowance. He pays for his attire out of salary. And he doesn't wear the same shabby suit every meeting, because he understands that his appearance reflects on the company, and him personally. He could decline the invitations to attend the Black Tie events, but he also understands that schmoozing is all part of the game of making contacts and furthering his career. 

I am getting tired of this growing attitude that "Unless its paid for by the crown, I can't be forced to do it" or "I can't be forced to attend things on my own time".


----------



## brihard (23 Apr 2018)

captloadie said:
			
		

> I have a friend who works in a Senior position at a civilian company. It isn't a huge company, and his salary is comparable to a senior Capt/Major. While the office norm is shirt and tie, suits are expected at business meetings. There is the occasional Black Tie affair he is invited to, where a tux is the expectation (and a formal dress for the spouse if attending). Guess what? He doesn't get a clothing allowance. He pays for his attire out of salary. And he doesn't wear the same shabby suit every meeting, because he understands that his appearance reflects on the company, and him personally. He could decline the invitations to attend the Black Tie events, but he also understands that schmoozing is all part of the game of making contacts and furthering his career.
> 
> I am getting tired of this growing attitude that "Unless its paid for by the crown, I can't be forced to do it" or "I can't be forced to attend things on my own time".



We don’t work for a private/for-profit employer, so your comparison is of little value. The bar to meet is “is it right for this to be coerced?” not “what happens in other completely unrelated career fields?” Yes, in some other fields people have to essentially brand and market themselves. Got it. That is not the nature of our employment. If they want to justify forcing people to pay for something they should be starting with an absolute clean slate and justifying why the coercive powers of military law ought to be brought to bear on a matter.


----------



## winnipegoo7 (23 Apr 2018)

captloadie said:
			
		

> I have a friend who works in a Senior position at a civilian company. It isn't a huge company, and his salary is comparable to a senior Capt/Major. While the office norm is shirt and tie, suits are expected at business meetings. There is the occasional Black Tie affair he is *invited to*, where a tux is the expectation (and a formal dress for the spouse if attending). Guess what? He doesn't get a clothing allowance. He pays for his attire out of salary. And he doesn't wear the same shabby suit every meeting, because he understands that his appearance reflects on the company, and him personally. *He could decline the invitations to attend the Black Tie events*, but he also understands that schmoozing is all part of the game of making contacts and furthering his career.
> 
> I am getting tired of this growing attitude that "Unless its paid for by the crown, I can't be forced to do it" or "I can't be forced to attend things on my own time".



Lol, you admit that your friend has a choice to attend these events....


----------



## mariomike (23 Apr 2018)

winnipegoo7 said:
			
		

> Lol, you admit that your friend has a choice to attend these events....



Lol, he also said....



			
				captloadie said:
			
		

> but he also understands that schmoozing is all part of the game of making contacts and furthering his career.



Whatever your career, I have read that non-reimbursable expenses are part of the cost of doing business.



			
				captloadie said:
			
		

> I am getting tired of this growing attitude that "Unless its paid for by the crown, I can't be forced to do it" or "I can't be forced to attend things on my own time".



See also,

The "Paying For a Mess Dinner" Merged Thread  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/41585.0/nowap.html
11 pages.


----------



## Pusser (23 Apr 2018)

Brihard said:
			
		

> We don’t work for a private/for-profit employer, so your comparison is of little value. The bar to meet is “is it right for this to be coerced?” not “what happens in other completely unrelated career fields?” Yes, in some other fields people have to essentially brand and market themselves. Got it. That is not the nature of our employment. If they want to justify forcing people to pay for something they should be starting with an absolute clean slate and justifying why the coercive powers of military law ought to be brought to bear on a matter.



The fact that you refer to "our employment" is part of the problem.  We are not regular "employees," but rather something well beyond that.  I truly don't understand why anyone would not take advantage of the things messes offer (perhaps not everything, but at least some of it).  We all get to be members of one of the most exclusive clubs in town at a very low cost.  There are many in civil society who are extremely envious of what we have, yet there are many inside the armed forces who couldn't care less.  By and large, I have gotten far more out of my mess dues than I've ever paid in.  If you don't take advantage of what the mess offers, that's your problem.  If you don't like what the mess has to offer, get involved and bring about the things you want.  It's not that hard.

If you've never been to a mess dinner, you've missed out on one of the coolest things about military service and have had a life less lived.


----------



## winnipegoo7 (23 Apr 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Lol, he also said....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Exactly. CL's argument is that this person chooses to attend extra events at their own expense because he sees a benefit to his career. This is obviously not the case with Military members being forced to attend events at their own expense. 

It's a poor argument.




			
				Pusser said:
			
		

> ...If you've never been to a mess dinner, you've missed out on one of the coolest things about military service and have had a life less lived.



Agree 100% I love going to the mess and I love mess dinners, but what is the obsession with forcing people to go?  If they don't want to attend/ participate I don't want them there.


----------



## mariomike (23 Apr 2018)

winnipegoo7 said:
			
		

> CL's argument is that this person chooses to attend extra events at their own expense because he sees a benefit to their career.



Some employers may choose to replace employees who choose not to attend extra events at their own expense with those who will. 

The most extreme example being a "Salaryman" in Japan: "Salarymen are expected to work long hours, additional overtime, to participate in after-work leisure activities such as drinking and visiting hostess bars with colleagues, and to value work over all else."

If you don't choose to participate, "You are loosening the tendrils that are holding you to the institution, and at the first high wind that comes along, you will be uprooted and blown away, and will probably never know the reason why."


----------



## jollyjacktar (23 Apr 2018)

winnipegoo7 said:
			
		

> Agree 100% I love going to the mess and I love mess dinners, but what is the obsession with forcing people to go?  If they don't want to attend/ participate I don't want them there.



I couldn't agree more.  If you love them, please, do enjoy.  I would rather, for myself, to just be left alone, thank you very much.  The mess isn't for everyone.


----------



## Gunner98 (23 Apr 2018)

I always considered mess dues to be union dues and mess dinners like family dinners arranged by the Old Man.  Suck it up and try to enjoy yourself you never know when you need them in your corner.


----------



## jollyjacktar (23 Apr 2018)

At least you can claim union dues at tax time.  Mind you, when I was a member of a union, it was only good for leeching your dues out each month.  We were less than enthused with the value bought for our money.


----------



## brihard (23 Apr 2018)

Pusser said:
			
		

> The fact that you refer to "our employment" is part of the problem.  We are not regular "employees," but rather something well beyond that.  I truly don't understand why anyone would not take advantage of the things messes offer (perhaps not everything, but at least some of it).  We all get to be members of one of the most exclusive clubs in town at a very low cost.  There are many in civil society who are extremely envious of what we have, yet there are many inside the armed forces who couldn't care less.  By and large, I have gotten far more out of my mess dues than I've ever paid in.  If you don't take advantage of what the mess offers, that's your problem.  If you don't like what the mess has to offer, get involved and bring about the things you want.  It's not that hard.
> 
> If you've never been to a mess dinner, you've missed out on one of the coolest things about military service and have had a life less lived.



On the contrary I quite actively attend my regiment's Sgts & WO's mess, and I usually enjoy the mess events I'm able to attend. Always have. I *choose* to attend them, and as a reservist I very easily could avoid them entirely if I wished to. And I will be purchasing mess dress once the army settles on a few outstanding standardization issues pertaining to my regiment's mess dress.

Our relationship with the military is still one of employment. I grant that it's very far from conventional employee-employer relationships, but we are still paid servants of the crown in a democratic society. It's not inappropriate to be critical of the nature of the legal relationship between ourselves and our employer and to occasionally ask if certain thinks make sense and are justified. We face a great many constraints and limitations, most of which make sense- but not all of them. An officer being told that it is illegal *not* to buy mess dress within six months of commissioning is just absurd, for a number of valid reasons that have been pointed out farther upthread.

There is nothing inherent in the employment of a regular force officer, versus a reservist, or a WO, NCO, or junior rank, that makes Mess Dress uniquely requisite for them. Its purely one of the lingering facets of classism that still permeate commonwealth militaries. It's not inherently defensible as a requirement, certainly not when the consequences can be the military justice system and everything that entails.


----------



## dapaterson (23 Apr 2018)

Brihard said:
			
		

> There is nothing inherent in the employment of a regular force officer, versus a reservist, or a WO, NCO, or junior rank, that makes Mess Dress uniquely requisite for them. Its purely one of the lingering facets of classism that still permeate commonwealth militaries. It's not inherently defensible as a requirement, certainly not when the consequences can be the military justice system and everything that entails.



This plus 1,000,000.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (23 Apr 2018)

The Mess.  Some of us are actually away from home, frequently and for varying pieces of time.  Some of the time we're not away from our postal codes, we spent 50%, sometimes more, sometimes less...on standy from 4pm Friday until 8am Monday.  In short, the CAF gets more than their pound of flesh out of us, and when we have time we're not on an electronic leash or away we feel like we've spent enough time with our comrades in arms, between eating with them, travelling with them, flying with them.  Sometimes what we REALLY want is time AWAY from the job and your crewmates;  because you spend some much time with them anyways.  If I am home on a Friday, and not on call (those 2 things were not very common the last several years), I don't want to give that time to anything except my wife and myself.  

Mess dinners?  Make them a parade.  Make them a Thursday evening.  Make the afternoon before "off", and people report for 10am the next morning for a ground training ('no work/training') day.  Let them go home/min manning early on Friday.  Make it a fun, relaxed, enjoyable time and make it part of a 'reward' to the unit, a time of relaxation and recognition and don't make it dig into 'another weekend'.

You'll have no argument from me then;  BUT from what I've seen the past...decade or so...is what is called a "Mess Dinner" is more a "Unit Formal Dinner" than a _Mess_ Dinner.  I looked forward to Mess Dinners;  WOs and Sgts Mess, etc dinners.


----------



## ballz (23 Apr 2018)

Pusser said:
			
		

> The fact that you refer to "our employment" is part of the problem.  We are not regular "employees," but rather something well beyond that.  I truly don't understand why anyone would not take advantage of the things messes offer (perhaps not everything, but at least some of it).  We all get to be members of one of the most exclusive clubs in town at a very low cost.  There are many in civil society who are extremely envious of what we have, yet there are many inside the armed forces who couldn't care less.  By and large, I have gotten far more out of my mess dues than I've ever paid in.  If you don't take advantage of what the mess offers, that's your problem.  If you don't like what the mess has to offer, get involved and bring about the things you want.  It's not that hard.
> 
> If you've never been to a mess dinner, you've missed out on one of the coolest things about military service and have had a life less lived.



Wowzers, take it easy on the Koolaid!


----------



## runormal (23 Apr 2018)

I'm curious, how much roughly are mess dinners in the reg/f likewise mess dues? For myself it's a minisucle cost that I couldn't care less. The savings on beers after work easily pay for itself. 

Typically for mess dinners I'll break even as it's always charged by rank.


----------



## PuckChaser (23 Apr 2018)

runormal said:
			
		

> So I'm just curious, how much roughly are mess dinners in the reg/f likewise mess dues?


Depends on your rank. A dinner for me as a Sgt is usually 60 bucks, and maybe 3 times a year (2 are optional). Mess dues are 18 bucks and change a month, was 10 as a MCpl. I also get free food every Friday. 

I really don't see the big deal, but $400 a year isn't my hill to die on. Some people would complain if the mess was free but they had to attend all functions.


----------



## mariomike (23 Apr 2018)

runormal said:
			
		

> I'm curious, how much roughly are mess dinners in the reg/f likewise mess dues?



You may find these discussions of interest ( may have to allow for inflation ),

How much do you pay for mess dues? 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/96315.0
3 pages.

Mess dues preauthorized withdrawals  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/118091.0


----------



## Eye In The Sky (23 Apr 2018)

I usually pay about $30 for a Sqn dinner, and $19 a month for dues (WOs and Sgts Mess).  Jnr Ranks is somewhat lower, Officers is somewhat higher for dues.


----------



## cld617 (24 Apr 2018)

Pusser said:
			
		

> I truly don't understand why anyone would not take advantage of the things messes offer (perhaps not everything, but at least some of it).



It simply doesn't appeal to them? Just because someone enjoys spending their night doing X doesn't mean that I too should also enjoy doing the same thing. We all have different pass times, mine doesn't include the mess. You not comprehending why someone doesn't want to do the same things you do isn't justification for forcing them to do it or that you position is more logical. If anything it's indicative of having poor judgement as to understanding what others want, it perpetuates the mess being "required". 



			
				Pusser said:
			
		

> If you don't take advantage of what the mess offers, that's your problem.  If you don't like what the mess has to offer, get involved and bring about the things you want.  It's not that hard.



No, my problem is that I'm forced to pay to be a part of a organization that offers me nothing in return that appeals to me. Similarly, Sally's book club every Wednesday night also doesn't offer me anything I want. The solution isn't to join her book club and convince her to make it a shooting club, it's to not joint he club in the first place and do what I want with my own time. Hanging out on base has zero appeal to me, there are many other places I could spend time with friends without worrying about saving a buck or two per beer and playing shuffle board.


----------



## putz (24 Apr 2018)

I've found that the departure gift I get from Messes more than or close to makes up for the dues I paid in the time there.


----------



## Rifleman62 (24 Apr 2018)

I wonder how many people joined the CAF and didn't know that they would be required to join a Mess at their status and pay dues?


----------



## Jarnhamar (24 Apr 2018)

[quote author=Pusser]  I truly don't understand why anyone would not take advantage of the things messes offer [/quote] 
So I can pay $60 dollars for a meal where I
1. Help set it up 
2. Told what to wear, where to sit and when I'm allowed to take a piss, and
3. Help clean it up when it's done. 

 :



> If you don't take advantage of what the mess offers, that's your problem.


Ridiculous. I'm paying for it against my wishes, it's hardly "taking advantage of it". 



> If you don't like what the mess has to offer, get involved and bring about the things you want.  It's not that hard.


Or we could make it volunteer so all the people that love going to the mess aren't benefiting on the backs of those who don't.


----------



## winnipegoo7 (24 Apr 2018)

It is a bit ironic but that the military forces members to belong to a mess and to go to mess dinners and then everyone feigns outrage when people get drunk and behave like drunks.  

It seems like you can’t have a mess dinner without a charge parade the next week.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (24 Apr 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> So I can pay $60 dollars for a meal where I
> 1. Help set it up
> 2. Told what to wear, where to sit and when I'm allowed to take a piss, and
> 3. Help clean it up when it's done.



My experience with RCAF mess/Sqn dinners are they are actually a pretty good time and a little more relaxed with stuff like bathroom breaks.  If someone wants to go to the bathroom, the last Sqn Dinner I attended, they had to approach the PMC and ask permission.  The PMC (along with the HCol...and old school Navigator) decided what the 'price' was.  It might be a song, or something entertaining and it usually is pretty funny.  I recall 3 techs who asked at the same time and off they went to the bathroom...holding hands and skipping with big smiles on their faces in front of the whole Sqn.  It was probably the funniest thing I'd seen in years, 3 grown men skipping along like Grade 2 school girls with that "OMF I need to go!" look on their faces.


----------



## Halifax Tar (25 Apr 2018)

I really couldn't care less if the messes live or die.  But seeing as how little they are used anymore, outside of forced fun, I think its time we let members decide if they want to pay into a mess or not; and let the messes live or die on their own merit.  Who knows that may actually revitalize some of them.


----------



## FSTO (25 Apr 2018)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> My experience with RCAF mess/Sqn dinners are they are actually a pretty good time and a little more relaxed with stuff like bathroom breaks.  If someone wants to go to the bathroom, the last Sqn Dinner I attended, they had to approach the PMC and ask permission.  The PMC (along with the HCol...and old school Navigator) decided what the 'price' was.  It might be a song, or something entertaining and it usually is pretty funny.  I recall 3 techs who asked at the same time and off they went to the bathroom...holding hands and skipping with big smiles on their faces in front of the whole Sqn.  It was probably the funniest thing I'd seen in years, 3 grown men skipping along like Grade 2 school girls with that "OMF I need to go!" look on their faces.


That's been my experience lately as well. The idea of holding your water until the speeches was kind of silly. Most of the mess dinners I've attended have allowed people to go the heads when required.


----------



## Jarnhamar (25 Apr 2018)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> My experience with RCAF mess/Sqn dinners are they are actually a pretty good time and a little more relaxed with stuff like bathroom breaks.



I understand mileage varies of course. I would be looking at getting stuck on duty for a weekend (away from the fam) if I took a piss outside of scheduled times. 

In my experience (and what I've picked up from others) mess functions cater to the top tier of the respective messes and mostly everyone else is there for seat fillers.


----------



## brihard (25 Apr 2018)

Oh come now, surely troops pissing in wine bottles under the table is far more dignified than politely excusing themselves for a brief absence.

Though to be fair I knew the military had turned a corner towards modernity when I witnessed a female member make use of the wine bottle at the table in lieu of excusing herself before the loyal toast. I didn’t see that one coming.


----------



## CountDC (25 Apr 2018)

Wow, still the mess arguments.

CAF regulations does require us all to belong to a mess.

It is the mess membership that decides we are required to pay mess dues and sets the amount laid out in the mess constitution.  If you don't want to pay then make the motion at the next mess meeting that mess dues not be charged. Doubt it will pass and be approved by the mess CO but worth a try.  Refusing to pay is certainly an option that will work for a short period.  Then the mess does up an outstanding mess dues notice to the CO who orders anything over a year to be deducted from your pay.  He may also request the RSM look into admin counselling in regards to your lack of paying outstanding debts. 

It is the unit that orders us to attend mess dinners however they can not order us to pay.  Feel perfectly free to say no, not paying, and attend without partaking of the food or drinks.

CRA does not recognize mess dues as union dues and tax deductible. 

Part I do not agree with is Officers ordered to purchase mess kit at their own expense.  If it is mandatory then it should be covered for them.


----------



## Pusser (26 Apr 2018)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Part I do not agree with is Officers ordered to purchase mess kit at their own expense.  If it is mandatory then it should be covered for them.



Part of me wants to go the other way and pay for all of my uniforms.  The trouble with the current system is we are required to wear the plastic crap manufactured by the lowest bidder.  Given the choice, I would opt for higher quality (which leads to higher comfort and longer lasting wear).  I rather like the American practice where all uniforms are purchased (enlisted receive an allowance for this) and are available in the Uniform Shop (usually connected to the PX).  Everything for sale has to meet the minimum standard, but higher quality items are also available.  It would be nice if Logistik offered the same option.  I have occasionally been spoken to for wearing nicer things.


----------



## CountDC (26 Apr 2018)

can't have you looking better than the rest  Uniformity to the lowest bidder must be upheld.  

Personally I would like to do away with many of the practices we have in place and change to a more open funding practice.

Uniform allowance that would actually cover the purchase of the basic requirement every X years and a small maintenance one monthly.  Want the fancier stuff then you pay for it. 

Lump sum move - CFM is $50k so here you are now RFD on 30 Jul.  You decide everything based on the money you are allotted, no claim required.  Fly first class, garbage everything and buy new, whatever. Go over the allotted amount though and it's out of your pocket.

No income tax - bit ridiculous to say here is $5k a month but we are taking back $1k for taxes.  Make our pay tax free and save everyone the hassle.  

A few years back in dealing with billings between CAF and an other government agency we reached a mutual agreement to use CFM rather than actuals.  The dollar amount at the end of the year was a relatively small difference and for the workload/man hours/hassle required to do actuals it was considered worth it. 

Of course none of these will ever happen as the government and public would see it that we are getting big money for nothing.  Sure for some individuals this would be the case but the overall effect may be a saving.


----------



## cld617 (26 Apr 2018)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Wow, still the mess arguments.
> 
> CAF regulations does require us all to belong to a mess.



I don't think anyone here is arguing that it's a rule, they're discussing the merits of that rule existing. If every problem encountered was responded with the circular reasoning that it exists because it says it needs to, we'd never adapt and progress.


----------



## Pusser (26 Apr 2018)

CountDC said:
			
		

> can't have you looking better than the rest  Uniformity to the lowest bidder must be upheld.
> 
> Dogmatic uniformity is a relatively recent thing.  Prior to 1968, officers in all three service were required to buy their own uniforms and so there was bound to be variances.  Other ranks often purchased "tiddly rigs" for special occasions.  Even with the old green uniform, people would sneak in items of higher quality.  I think it was only with the DEU that we starting cracking down on this stuff.
> 
> ...


----------



## Remius (26 Apr 2018)

Out of curiosity, do messes on ships get their funding from mess dues?  I.e. do members posted to a ship pay dues to those messes?


----------



## kratz (26 Apr 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> Out of curiosity, do messes on ships get their funding from mess dues?  I.e. do members posted to a ship pay dues to those messes?



Yes, mess dues are paid on board and accounted for through the NPF system.


----------



## Remius (26 Apr 2018)

It would be interesting to see which messes lived or died based on their respective populations having the option to pay into them or not. 

Would ships essentially shut down their messes if people wanted to opt out of paying?  How many of those same people would bemoan the loss of their messes though.

Messes like the one in Meaford would likely die.  Although recruits and candidates probably would feel pressured to pay.

Messes have a purpose.  But I can't argue with someone who does not want to partake one way or another in mess life.

The Jr ranks mess in Ottawa might die as well.  It's dead most nights and outside of Christmas events and other outside functions it isn't really that busy (by the membership in relation to the size of said population).  with the move to carling it is going to see even less use.  

Regimental messes both reserve and regular would likely survive as the membership still has some attachment to those places given the historical, traditional and regimental affiliations contained within (there will always be a few that would opt out).

The thing is, once you lose something it is very hard to get it back.


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## Pusser (26 Apr 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> It would be interesting to see which messes lived or died based on their respective populations having the option to pay into them or not.
> 
> Would ships essentially shut down their messes if people wanted to opt out of paying?  How many of those same people would bemoan the loss of their messes though.
> 
> ...



Shipboard messes actually receive the bulk of their funding through exchange profits (all bars and the ship's canteen) and since they don't have any of the infrastructure requirements of land based messes, virtually all of their funds can be spent on entertaining the mess members.  Dues actually tend to be quite low and the funds are depleted on a regular basis.  Member participation is very high compared to land based messes, largely because most parties occur in foreign ports (prelude to runs ashore) and mess meetings are often conducted at sea (nowhere else to go).  Therefore, all members tend to be much more involved in what the mess does.  A lot of money gets spent on group activities in foreign ports as well.


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## Halifax Tar (26 Apr 2018)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Shipboard messes actually receive the bulk of their funding through exchange profits (all bars and the ship's canteen) and since they don't have any of the infrastructure requirements of land based messes, virtually all of their funds can be spent on entertaining the mess members.  Dues actually tend to be quite low and the funds are depleted on a regular basis.  Member participation is very high compared to land based messes, largely because most parties occur in foreign ports (prelude to runs ashore) and mess meetings are often conducted at sea (nowhere else to go).  Therefore, all members tend to be much more involved in what the mess does.  A lot of money gets spent on group activities in foreign ports as well.



Yup.  I think messes on ship would remain healthy, and I think the majority of the crew(s) would elect to contribute to their respective messes.  When in MS and Below or C&PO messes on ships I actually felt  justified in that payment, I used it allot.  Now that I am shore based I haven't once set foot in my mess unless under orders, and I haven't so much as drank a pop.  Its the shore based ones that would suffer, IMHO.


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## Remius (26 Apr 2018)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Yup.  I think messes on ship would remain healthy, and I think the majority of the crew(s) would elect to contribute to their respective messes.  When in MS and Below or C&PO messes on ships I actually felt  justified in that payment, I used it allot.  Now that I am shore based I haven't once set foot in my mess unless under orders, and I haven't so much as drank a pop.  Its the shore based ones that would suffer, IMHO.



Interesting.  So it would likely be the generic messes that would have issues.  My reserve unit would likely not suffer as most would want to contribute.  We also have a larger say on events, activities etc due to a smaller membership base than a larger organisation.

Also note: Reserve mandatory events are normally paid events.  But at my unit at least most people would still show up, most of our class b types do.  And there is a warn out system with proper justification in place.


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## Eye In The Sky (26 Apr 2018)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Part of me wants to go the other way and pay for all of my uniforms.



The Pte's and OCdts in the world wouldn't thank you for suggesting that, especially when they are now forced to pay for rations at outrageous prices despite the mortgage, wife and 3 kids at home while they're getting thru basic and initial occupation training...



> I have occasionally been spoken to for wearing nicer things.



 ???


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## Lumber (26 Apr 2018)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> ???



I was grilled by a Canex employee once for telling them that I would be using cufflinks that my parents had gotten me instead of the military ones you can buy at the Canex. It wasn't that she was upset I didn't want their product, she was legitimately angry that I was going to mix civilian cufflinks with my military dress (the cufflinks where platinum and gold "2Lt Slips On".)


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## MJP (26 Apr 2018)

Lumber said:
			
		

> I was grilled by a Canex employee once for telling them that I would be using cufflinks that my parents had gotten me instead of the military ones you can buy at the Canex. It wasn't that she was upset I didn't want their product, she was legitimately angry that I was going to mix civilian cufflinks with my military dress (the cufflinks where platinum and gold "2Lt Slips On".)



Don't cha know dependapotamus wear their SO's rank and know everything?    http://imgur.com/sSllUH5


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## jollyjacktar (26 Apr 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> It would be interesting to see which messes lived or died based on their respective populations having the option to pay into them or not.
> 
> Would ships essentially shut down their messes if people wanted to opt out of paying?  How many of those same people would bemoan the loss of their messes though.
> 
> ...


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## PPCLI Guy (26 Apr 2018)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> The Pte's and OCdts in the world wouldn't thank you for suggesting that, especially when they are now forced to pay for rations at outrageous prices despite the mortgage, wife and 3 kids at home while they're getting thru basic and initial occupation training...
> 
> 
> ???



I am pretty sure that if I was a Pte (again) or an OCdt (again), I *still* wouldn't think it possible - or even responsible - to try and support a spouse (which is what I assume you meant by "wife"), mortgage and 3 kids.  

I guess things must have changed since those days.


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## Cloud Cover (26 Apr 2018)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Yup.  I think messes on ship would remain healthy, and I think the majority of the crew(s) would elect to contribute to their respective messes.  When in MS and Below or C&PO messes on ships I actually felt  justified in that payment, I used it allot.  Now that I am shore based I haven't once set foot in my mess unless under orders, and I haven't so much as drank a pop.  Its the shore based ones that would suffer, IMHO.



Are you referring to what used to be called the Fleet Clubs?


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## Halifax Tar (27 Apr 2018)

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> Are you referring to what used to be called the Fleet Clubs?



We still have Fleet Clubs.  But I was referring to all land based messes, not just those of the RCN.


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## Eye In The Sky (27 Apr 2018)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> I am pretty sure that if I was a Pte (again) or an OCdt (again), I *still* wouldn't think it possible - or even responsible - to try and support a spouse (which is what I assume you meant by "wife"), mortgage and 3 kids.
> 
> I guess things must have changed since those days.



Some applicants are coming from civilian jobs where they've already had a portion of 'adult life' take place, or they are CTs.  The younger 'typical' CFRC applicant may not always be in that situation, but some would be older and face this situation.  My thought about the Pte/OCdt with the mortgage, spouse/SO, and 3 kids relates back to a comment you'd made in a separate thread that made me realize not everyone is starting and ending their careers in the CAF:



			
				PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> If youth today plan on having 7 different careers in their life, let's figure out how to make 4 of them on the military



For some people, we may be their '1st, 2nd, and 3rd' careers.  For others, the CAF might be their '4th - 7th' ones.  Those folks are more likely to have the kids, mortgages, etc IMO.  

Agreed; spouse or significant other, is a better term.


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## Eagle_Eye_View (27 Apr 2018)

> Some applicants are coming from civilian jobs where they've already had a portion of 'adult life' take place, or they are CTs.  The younger 'typical' CFRC applicant may not always be in that situation, but some would be older and face this situation.



We have students at our school that release for more than 5 years, then join back and are now Aviators. Another example, I have a student that was an MWO and VOT; he’s now a Cpl.


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## CountDC (27 Apr 2018)

cld617 said:
			
		

> I don't think anyone here is arguing that it's a rule, they're discussing the merits of that rule existing. If every problem encountered was responded with the circular reasoning that it exists because it says it needs to, we'd never adapt and progress.



But some are pointing the finger at the military for mess dues which when you read the follow on instead of just that one line my point is that the military only requires you to belong to the mess, not pay mess dues.  Payment of dues is the real complaint so pointing the finger in the right direction which is the mess and its membership that vote on the dues to be paid.

I have no issue with getting rid of the messes.  If it was not mandatory to belong to one I suspect that almost all of them outside the ships would disappear. I know I would be happy to keep my dues instead of support a place that gets used once a week for about an hour by a handful of people or better yet only used really by the associate members that pay a lot less into it.  lets make them self supporting businesses instead of paying dues. Swim or sink on their own just like any other bar in the area.

I know, we still need the facility for those mess dinners we get ordered to attend so must maintain a mess.   Not into those either so no issue.  One dinner a year, SAD, that gets held on the parade square is good enough.


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## Jarnhamar (27 Apr 2018)

[quote author=Count] .  Payment of dues is the real complaint so pointing the finger in the right direction which is the mess and its membership that vote on the dues to be paid.[/QUOTE] 

Anytime I've cleared into a base for a td task or course paying mess dues seems to be the second, if not first most important thing people care about. Complete with threats if we didn't pay.

I get reimbursed back at my home mess but training bases especially seem crazy about getting their money. 

Membership may decide about mess dues but I doubt very much any CO will allow members to vote mess dues down to $0.

Am I wrong or does a reserve CO/base commander not have the capability to  take (or order) money from one mess be given to give to another mess to prevent one from going into the black budget wise?


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## dapaterson (27 Apr 2018)

I don't believe a CO has the authority to order transfers between messes - each has to stand on its own.  (Not to say it's never happened...)

I do think "The Mess" needs a rethink.  Back when the military was mostly single folks, what mess is and what a mess offers (a place to eat, drink and sleep) made some sense.  But with changing demographics, maybe the closest thing we have to a "modern mess" is the MFRC - a place where people come together for support.

Perhaps the vital ground of the mess is in creating a military community.  And if our demographics have changed, our community support structures need to change as well.   Convert the anteroom from a place to hold the silver and china into a daycare.  Turn the snakepit into a homework center.

Move our mindsets from cheap beer and oak panels to the broader military family.


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## CountDC (27 Apr 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Anytime I've cleared into a base for a td task or course paying mess dues seems to be the second, if not first most important thing people care about. Complete with threats if we didn't pay.
> _Yep, been there plenty of times with that experience.  Still that mess has meetings and votes during the year just that most times us visitors are not able or willing to attend. _
> 
> I get reimbursed back at my home mess but training bases especially seem crazy about getting their money.
> ...


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## Jarnhamar (27 Apr 2018)

Neat, thanks for the correction.


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## ballz (27 Apr 2018)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Doubt it too but don't know of anyone trying it with a sound case showing that the mess could support itself without the dues.



That right there is the sound case... it couldn't.

You seem to be looking at this through rose-coloured glasses. Sure, we have an illusion of democracy in Mess committee's, but it doesn't matter if the entire committee was full of libertarians that decided we should butt out of member's lives, reduce dues to zero and work within the means that mess has through the support it gets voluntarily... the "illusion" part of that democracy would quickly rear it's ugly head.

This reminds me of all the BS involved with the current combatives grappling movement... "why do I even have to convince people that this is a good idea." Those in most of these leadership positions live in a very different reality. You have to have bought into the system to get there. It's a self-licking ice cream cone that perpetuates it's antiquated thinking, no matter how much they talk about various initiatives.


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Apr 2018)

I seem to recall, during the '70s, we had the same discussion in Pet. I might be wrong in the location and time. The result was that, for a time, if you didn't want to pay mess dues you could give the same amount, through a pay assignment to a charity of your choice. The caveat was that you would attend Regimental gatherings, member or not. You received none of the member's perks, including Happy Hours, and payed non member entrance to any public events. I don't think it ever caught though. It was a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away.


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## Gunner98 (28 Apr 2018)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Move our mindsets from cheap beer and oak panels to the broader military family.



I was at a recent Vimy Officers Mess Happy Hour in Kingston at which there were as many civilian spouses and children as there were officers in uniform.  I find it hard to rationalize feeding spouses and children from mess dues of the officers.  I think messes should all be like the ones in Greenwood, all ranks in one building with separate bars and a common one.  The costs of building maintenance, utilities, furnishing and staffing for distinct messes should ancient history.  Sell off the surplus equipment and donate the memorabilia to museums or to unit lines.  The era of the Unit Stand Easy ended with the change in society's attitude to driving impaired.  The era of distinctive messes at a Base should end when there insufficient residents and bar sales to break even.  The Base budget should not support the maintenance of buildings that are not essential to the daily business of the Base's mandate.

Recent visitors from the Carling Campus (CFHS) in Ottawa to CFB Kingston opted for VIP quarters for their two-night stay, rather than staying at a local hotel.  They were surprised when the VIP quarters did not provide towels, soap/shampoo or even toilet paper.  How is that for cost-cutting, VIP services!


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## Blackadder1916 (28 Apr 2018)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> Recent visitors from the Carling Campus (CFHS) in Ottawa to CFB Kingston opted for VIP quarters for their two-night stay, rather than staying at a local hotel.  They were surprised when the VIP quarters did not provide towels, soap/shampoo or even toilet paper.  How is that for cost-cutting, VIP services!



Less thieving that way.


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## Jarnhamar (28 Apr 2018)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> I was at a recent Vimy Officers Mess Happy Hour in Kingston at which there were as many civilian spouses and children as there were officers in uniform.  I find it hard to rationalize feeding spouses and children from mess dues of the officers.  I think messes should all be like the ones in Greenwood, all ranks in one building with separate bars and a common one.  The costs of building maintenance, utilities, furnishing and staffing for distinct messes should ancient history.  Sell off the surplus equipment and donate the memorabilia to museums or to unit lines.  The era of the Unit Stand Easy ended with the change in society's attitude to driving impaired.  The era of distinctive messes at a Base should end when there insufficient residents and bar sales to break even.  The Base budget should not support the maintenance of buildings that are not essential to the daily business of the Base's mandate.



Mess members money spend on families of other members. 

Not as bad as a $10'000 four wheeler and $5000 big screen TV being given away at a Christmas party which I've seen but at least in that case it was for members only. Mind you just the ones who could show up.


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## PuckChaser (28 Apr 2018)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> I was at a recent Vimy Officers Mess Happy Hour in Kingston at which there were as many civilian spouses and children as there were officers in uniform.  I find it hard to rationalize feeding spouses and children from mess dues of the officers.



If only there was some sort of gathering of the membership of the mess that folks could vote on how funds are being used... we could call it a General Mess Meeting?


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## FSTO (28 Apr 2018)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> I was at a recent Vimy Officers Mess Happy Hour in Kingston at which there were as many civilian spouses and children as there were officers in uniform.
> Recent visitors from the Carling Campus (CFHS) in Ottawa to CFB Kingston opted for VIP quarters for their two-night stay, rather than staying at a local hotel.  They were surprised when the VIP quarters did not provide towels, soap/shampoo or even toilet paper.  How is that for cost-cutting, VIP services!



I was just in Kingston last week and attended the TGIT and what was pointed out to me was that many of the civilians were Public Servants and Military Members not in uniform.

We stayed at the Dawe Block across the street from the Officers Mess and we knew that towels and shampoo were not provided. I'd be f**** pissed if there was no TP in the heads! But the TP was provided, thank god!!!


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## Gunner98 (28 Apr 2018)

FSTO said:
			
		

> I was just in Kingston last week and attended the TGIT and what was pointed out to me was that many of the civilians were Public Servants and Military Members not in uniform.



Public Servants should be paying for their meals unless they are dues paying members of the Mess.  When I attended as a visitor, I was not asked to pay and there appeared to be so much leftover food that people were offered seconds and thirds to take home with them and then late arrivals from the bar area who were mess members went hungry.   It became apparent that no one took the time to inform the members at the bar of last call for food. I was not so much surprised by the adult non-members eating there on my two visits as I was the number of children that attended TGITs.  It was explained to me that some of those officers had picked there kids up from KMFRC day care and then brought them to the mess for a family supper; they were getting their share and more.


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## garb811 (28 Apr 2018)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> Public Servants should be paying for their meals unless they are dues paying members of the Mess.  When I attended as a visitor, I was not asked to pay and there appeared to be so much leftover food that people were offered seconds and thirds to take home with them and then late arrivals from the bar area who were mess members went hungry.   It became apparent that no one took the time to inform the members at the bar of last call for food. I was not so much surprised by the adult non-members eating there on my two visits as I was the number of children that attended TGITs.  It was explained to me that some of those officers had picked there kids up from KMFRC day care and then brought them to the mess for a family supper; they were getting their share and more.


But...what's the problem here exactly, if that is what the membership of the mess have agreed to?  What is "their share" that they are getting more of when everyone has the same opportunity to bring guests and family (I'm presuming) and you've admitted there is more than enough to go around for seconds and thirds?  

What is better; a TGIT that has people in attendance who apparently actually want to be there which means they are hanging around to socialize and drop money on the bar or a TGIT that nobody goes to because they need to pick up their kids, get them home, make supper and feed them?

Sounds to me like that mess committee is actually getting with the times and making their mess an attractive place for their members in today's reality.


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## Scoobie Newbie (28 Apr 2018)

The solution is a volunteer mess. Those invested will make it into what they want and those that don’t want to be a part of it can do more important things. It’s time to take messes off life support. Sink or swim.


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## Gunner98 (28 Apr 2018)

garb811 said:
			
		

> But...what's the problem here exactly, if that is what the membership of the mess have agreed to?  What is "their share" that they are getting more of when everyone has the same opportunity to bring guests and family (I'm presuming) and you've admitted there is more than enough to go around for seconds and thirds?
> 
> What is better; a TGIT that has people in attendance who apparently actually want to be there which means they are hanging around to socialize and drop money on the bar or a TGIT that nobody goes to because they need to pick up their kids, get them home, make supper and feed them?
> 
> Sounds to me like that mess committee is actually getting with the times and making their mess an attractive place for their members in today's reality.



I honestly no longer have a dog in the race.  Are you saying it makes sense to take a portion of 'forced' mess dues to form an Entertainment Budget that includes free meals for guests/families?  As an outsider it would appear that the fact that there is more than enough TGIT food to go around means they are wasting money from the Entertainment budget.  The members who are bringing kids to the mess are not "dropping money on the bar" in any volume that will have any impact on the mess expenses.


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## garb811 (28 Apr 2018)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> I honestly no longer have a dog in the race.  Are you saying it makes sense to take a portion of 'forced' mess dues to form an Entertainment Budget that includes free meals for guests/families?  As an outsider it would appear that the fact that there is more than enough TGIT food to go around means they are wasting money from the Entertainment budget.  The members who are bringing kids to the mess are not "dropping money on the bar" in any volume that will have any impact on the mess expenses.


Whether that is "wasting" money, I'm not in a position to say as I'm not a member of that mess.  But given my experiences with TGIT/TGIF where 10-15 regular members and about the same number of associates and wives "might" show up on a good night to eat the food for 100 that is laid on, this actually sounds like a rip roaring success and a much better use of the entertainment budget to get people in the doors than crap like Camper's Bingo.


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## Nfld Sapper (28 Apr 2018)

At the Warrant and Sgt's Mess here in Gagetown any leftover food is out behind the bar for late comers and for lunch on Friday as they to TGIT here instead.


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## SupersonicMax (28 Apr 2018)

Where I am posted, 1 out of every 4 TGIF is a "family" TGIF where spouses and kids are invited.  Every other one, only spouses are invited.


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## TCM621 (29 Apr 2018)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> I honestly no longer have a dog in the race.  Are you saying it makes sense to take a portion of 'forced' mess dues to form an Entertainment Budget that includes free meals for guests/families?  As an outsider it would appear that the fact that there is more than enough TGIT food to go around means they are wasting money from the Entertainment budget.  The members who are bringing kids to the mess are not "dropping money on the bar" in any volume that will have any impact on the mess expenses.



 I can speak for anyone else but I have no problem with it. Everyone who is a member of the mess has the opportunity to show up, with a spouse/SO and kids, so people who don't avail themselves of that only have themselves to blame. In my experience, messes have always have had a family component. I spent hours in the mess with my Dad as a kid. Your dues also go to baby, bereavement and hospital gifts. 

Also in my experience we rarely ever lose money because we are giving food away to people who don't pay dues. When we run a TGIF, we charge a nominal fee like 5 bucks. If we have the turn out we expect the food costs are covered with maybe a little profit and we make some money on the bar. We lose money when we have a poor turn out. We also lose money on bar staff. NPF mandates we higher paid bartenders, the days of the mess comittee behind the bar are long gone so if we have poor attendance,  bar sales don't cover wages.

But the mess doesn't have to be a bar. It can also be a club house for members to use. You want to watch the game on the big screen? Let us know and we will open it up. We don't have to open the bar for you to use the tv. Organize a games night, kids movie night. It's your space and we can help you use it however you want (within NPF rules). Messes have to change with the times and having the mess=bar isn't feasible in todays military. Get involved with your mess comittee and help them use your dues in a way that is acceptable to you.


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## jollyjacktar (29 Apr 2018)

Oh, l don't know.  I'm pretty comfortable in blaming those who force me to be a member of an institution l don't use or have any interest in using, for why l don't participate.  That and their hand is in my pocket rifling through it for the monthly dues.


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## brihard (29 Apr 2018)

FSTO said:
			
		

> We stayed at the Dawe Block across the street from the Officers Mess and we knew that towels and shampoo were not provided. I'd be f**** pissed if there was no TP in the heads! But the TP was provided, thank god!!!



What grit was it?


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## Jarnhamar (29 Apr 2018)

garb811] 
Sounds to me like that mess committee is actually getting with the times and making their mess an attractive place for their members in today's reality.
[/quote]

[quote author=Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> * The solution is a volunteer mess. * Those invested will make it into what they want and those that don’t want to be a part of it can do more important things. It’s time to take messes off life support. Sink or swim.



Perfect.


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## FSTO (29 Apr 2018)

Brihard said:
			
		

> What grit was it?



Enough to take chrome off a truck bumper!


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## Good2Golf (29 Apr 2018)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> I honestly no longer have a dog in the race.  Are you saying it makes sense to take a portion of 'forced' mess dues to form an Entertainment Budget that includes free meals for guests/families?  As an outsider it would appear that the fact that there is more than enough TGIT food to go around means they are wasting money from the Entertainment budget.  The members who are bringing kids to the mess are not "dropping money on the bar" in any volume that will have any impact on the mess expenses.



As a past member of Vimy, sounds like the Mess membership is still doing today what it did in the past, include families in a number of TGIFs.  I recall voting on supporting this several times, so to your query, and as noted by a number of others, if the members vote it in, then it's an approved way of doing things.  The logic of believing that every night at the Mess must itself break even (the member with their spouse and kids not being profit-neutral) is not strong - Vimy had lots of chin-wagging and brews going downrange during the week as well.  As others say as well, to actually be attracting members to the Mess, particularly in a city like Kingston with all the other options in abundance, is actually a rather positive thing.  Vimy was a good mess when I was a member, and sounds like it still is.

:2c:

Regards
G2G


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## Remius (29 Apr 2018)

I get the impression that some people don’t like being in the CAF...


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## dapaterson (29 Apr 2018)

Job vs Career, I think.


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## jollyjacktar (29 Apr 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> I get the impression that some people don’t like being in the CAF...



I think you could better state that you get the impression some people don't care for certain aspects that come with service in the CAF.  That, would be more fair perhaps... 

And that would cover just about any one of us with respect to things in general.  Not all will be totally happy with how things are in our day to day lives regardless of what we do for a living.


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## Downhiller229 (29 Apr 2018)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I think you could better state that you get the impression some people don't care for certain aspects that come with service in the CAF.  That, would be more fair perhaps...



Except if some people were complaining about going to the field, getting deployed or being posted somewhere they don't like they would get steamrolled by the sanctimonious bunch around here... Just seems like a double standard. 

I do dislike some aspects of my job, but for the most part I'm happy to put up with it because we still get a great deal. 

As many have stated, as à mess member you can influence how your money is spent. I have started bringing my daughter to family TGIF and that way I get to enjoy a beer with the guys and she gets to run around with other kids and we all get a nice meal. It's important to me to continue to foster relationships with my coworkers and I have found that the mess is a great environment to do that. 

That being said I was on TD at another base and found the mess culture to be very stuffy and strange. Very much "forced" as it has been referred to. It's really too bad but hopefully the solution can be found by being a bit more creative with how mess dues are spent and not by abolishing them. 

These are all opinions, take them for what they are worth.


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## jollyjacktar (29 Apr 2018)

There's nothing wrong with having different opinions.  You enjoy mess society, so to speak, and that's great.  It's not for everyone and for those folks, like myself, it's a dissatifier to be forced into it.


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## Downhiller229 (29 Apr 2018)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> There's nothing wrong with having different opinions.  You enjoy mess society, so to speak, and that's great.  It's not for everyone and for those folks, like myself, it's a dissatifier to be forced into it.



I just can't make out the difference between that and being forced to go to the field. Or on a course that had nothing to do with anything (see cafjods) 

Im dissatisfied I have to do those things on occasion.


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## jollyjacktar (29 Apr 2018)

Downhiller229 said:
			
		

> I just can't make out the difference between that and being forced to go to the field. Or on a course that had nothing to do with anything (see cafjods)
> 
> Im dissatisfied I have to do those things on occasion.



Well, going out into the field or to sea etc is a job requirement, is it not?  That's where/how we ply our trade.  If you cannot do that, then you will find yourself moving on eventually.  I agree, it does indeed suck at times to do both.

That being said, however, the social aspect of being in/participating in a mess's social activities have nothing to do with my profession and trade.  If it did, l suppose it would have been covered in my trades training.  But it hasn't.

I also hated cleaning stations too, both as a participant or supervisor.  It is, a necessary evil onboard ship and while it can suck there's a need and it is a health benefit for me and my shipmates.

For me, being a member of a mess ashore has none of that and I'm afraid l don't see your connection either.   :dunno:


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## Jarnhamar (29 Apr 2018)

Downhiller229 said:
			
		

> I just can't make out the difference between that and being forced to go to the field.



I'd say this is part of the issue.


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## George Wallace (29 Apr 2018)

Many years ago, while I was still serving, I witnessed the decline of the Messes.  PSP and Canex started to get too involved in the Messes.  Gone were the cheap beers and alcohol, with the reasoning given that we had to sell in par with local civilian establishments.  Unlike the civilian establishments, which did sell cheap booze for Happy Hours, and had loud music and women; the Messes were left to die a slow death.  
I tried to get my troops to attend, at the very least, Happy Hours of Fridays.  The reasoning was for them to socialize and get to know their co-workers and let off steam before heading off to other greener pastures in the civilian night club scene.  It was also to give them a place, where they could sit with their Brothers in Arms and decompress......Something that I believe the first Mess in long ago days was meant to be, and the origins of the RCL for those who had left the military but still had 'problems' adjusting to civilian life.  The Mess is where you can sit down with people who had been through traumatic situations together and they could decompress in an environment that would permit them to do so without interference from those who have no clue what they had gone through.  The Mess is part of the 'healing process', in my view, and one that some 'tea toddlers' have ignored and figure is not required.  Perhaps, this is one of the reasons we see so many problems attributed to PTSD; the troops have no idea where and with whom to decompress after events.  Traditions are being lost, because they have not been properly explained to new members who are asking the questions "Why?".  If there is no explanation for why a tradition exists, the reason to perpetuate it will cause it to die a slow lingering death.  If our Leadership have no clue why things are done, then they are the fault in the system.

While in Gagetown, every Friday, when C Sqn came in from the Field, we filled up the Maritime Club Snake Pit and decompressed, played poke chest and joked.  We went over our problems of the week.  Explained why some things were done the way they were.  Critiqued our bosses and subordinates.  Monday, when we all went out to the Field again, we were one happy family, having gotten all the crap off our chests the Friday before.....Ready to do it all over again and improve.


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## Downhiller229 (29 Apr 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I'd say this is part of the issue.



It's context too... my occupation doesn't often go to the field, I had to once as a SME on exercise. Wasn't a huge fan but part of my duties. 

It's important for me to know my collègues and superiors on a personal level, which is why mess culture and being with "work people" outside normal work hours is something I'm into. I would say most my coworkers would tend to agree. 

I also know that having that level of comaraderie with your peers isn't necessarily something that's as relevant in other spheres... but I feel given the obligations we have towards one another, interaction outside of normal business hours is important. The messes are there to facilitate this, and we should take advantage of the votes we have to make that environment relevant to the max. And for a few hundred dollars of mess fees I think it's a valid investment.


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## George Wallace (29 Apr 2018)

It isn't the "Mess" that makes it a good or bad/useful or useless Mess; it is the membership of the Mess who make it a good or bad Mess.


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## ballz (29 Apr 2018)

Downhiller229 said:
			
		

> It's context too... my occupation doesn't often go to the field, I had to once as a SME on exercise. Wasn't a huge fan but part of my duties.
> 
> It's important for me to know my collègues and superiors on a personal level, which is why mess culture and being with "work people" outside normal work hours is something I'm into. I would say most my coworkers would tend to agree.
> 
> I also know that having that level of comaraderie with your peers isn't necessarily something that's as relevant in other spheres... but I feel given the obligations we have towards one another, interaction outside of normal business hours is important. The messes are there to facilitate this, and we should take advantage of the votes we have to make that environment relevant to the max. And for a few hundred dollars of mess fees I think it's a valid investment.



What occupation are you?


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## Nfld Sapper (29 Apr 2018)

ballz said:
			
		

> What occupation are you?



According to his profile:



> MOSID:00183


 so Pilot.


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## jollyjacktar (29 Apr 2018)

Downhiller229 said:
			
		

> It's context too... my occupation doesn't often go to the field, I had to once as a SME on exercise. Wasn't a huge fan but part of my duties.
> 
> It's important for me to know my collègues and superiors on a personal level, which is why mess culture and being with "work people" outside normal work hours is something I'm into. I would say most my coworkers would tend to agree.
> 
> I also know that having that level of comaraderie with your peers isn't necessarily something that's as relevant in other spheres... but I feel given the obligations we have towards one another, interaction outside of normal business hours is important. The messes are there to facilitate this, and we should take advantage of the votes we have to make that environment relevant to the max. And for a few hundred dollars of mess fees I think it's a valid investment.



I concur, it is good to know one's colleagues.  In my present world of Marine Engineering, it cannot be accomplished in the mess as the ranks cannot meet this way due to ranging from Jr Ranks to Wardroom.  It has always been in my experience, done off property, at some civilian establishment where we get together as a shop and bond.  Even in my former trade, the Thunderbird club was outside of the mess confines.  

So, other options 2, Mess 0.


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## PuckChaser (29 Apr 2018)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Even in my former trade, the Thunderbird club was outside of the mess confines.



Unless you're in Kingston and its upstairs in the JRs.


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## jollyjacktar (29 Apr 2018)

It still is outside of the mess system, regardless of physical location.


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## PuckChaser (29 Apr 2018)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> It still is outside of the mess system, regardless of physical location.



Are the dues mandatory in lieu of paying into the JR/Sr NCO/Officers mess?


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## jollyjacktar (29 Apr 2018)

Not in my day.  We still needed to be a member of our respective messes but this was where we went instead.


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## garb811 (29 Apr 2018)

Thunderbird's are constituted as "clubs" in the same manner as the Wood Hobby Club, the Automotive Club etc.  Dues paid to the T-Bird, in locations where one exists, are over and above Mess Dues.


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## CountDC (30 Apr 2018)

ballz said:
			
		

> That right there is the sound case... it couldn't.
> 
> You seem to be looking at this through rose-coloured glasses.



Nope - if I was I wouldn't say doubt it.   I just give that 1% as it hasn't been tried and I know from experience that sometimes when tried the perceived impossible does happen.



			
				Simian Turner said:
			
		

> I think messes should all be like the ones in Greenwood, all ranks in one building with separate bars and a common one.  The costs of building maintenance, utilities, furnishing and staffing for distinct messes should ancient history.  Sell off the surplus equipment and donate the memorabilia to museums or to unit lines.  The era of the Unit Stand Easy ended with the change in society's attitude to driving impaired.  The era of distinctive messes at a Base should end when there insufficient residents and bar sales to break even.  The Base budget should not support the maintenance of buildings that are not essential to the daily business of the Base's mandate.



Try visiting some of the reserve Armouries where the entire upper level is messes as each unit needs their own for their one night of the week. Classrooms? who needs them.



			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> I seem to recall, during the '70s, we had the same discussion in Pet. I might be wrong in the location and time. The result was that, for a time, if you didn't want to pay mess dues you could give the same amount, through a pay assignment to a charity of your choice. The caveat was that you would attend Regimental gatherings, member or not. You received none of the member's perks, including Happy Hours, and payed non member entrance to any public events. I don't think it ever caught though. It was a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away.



heard of this but could never find any details.  Was a real pain too as every once in a while someone would mention there was a regulation or policy on this trying to get out of paying the dues.



			
				Tcm621 said:
			
		

> But the mess doesn't have to be a bar. It can also be a club house for members to use. You want to watch the game on the big screen? Let us know and we will open it up. We don't have to open the bar for you to use the tv. Organize a games night, kids movie night. It's your space and we can help you use it however you want (within NPF rules). Messes have to change with the times and having the mess=bar isn't feasible in todays military. Get involved with your mess comittee and help them use your dues in a way that is acceptable to you.



Well said.


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