# D E T-shirts for NCDs



## gwp (5 Sep 2008)

FROM: NDHQ CMS OTTAWA//MS COS//
DTG: R 021532Z SEP 08
SUBJ: NAVAL DRESS UPDATE - NAVAL COMBAT DRESS

Subj: Naval dress update - naval combat dress
bilingual message/message bilingue
ref: Canforgen 027/07 - 07 cms 008/07 191431z feb 07
1. Ref described the requirement to maintain an environmental identiy with regards to the wearing of cadpat clothing. Specifically para 2c authorized the wearing of black tee shirts to
reflect the navy identity.
2. Currently all personnel serving in marcom are permitted to wear a white crew neck tee shirt with their ncds. Effective immediately all personnel may wear their distinct elemental identifiers when wearing ncds as folllows:
A. Naval personnel - all personnel wearing the navy deu are authorized to acquire and wear, at no cost to the crown, a crew neck tee shirt without logos, jet black in colour, minimum 50 percent cotton/50 percent polyester as an undergarment to their ncds. Rank slip ons shall be the naval pattern as currently prescribed. White tee shirts may continue to be worn until black tee shirts are issued by the cf supply system.
B. Army personnel - all personnel wearing the army deu are authorized to wear the green tee shirt as issued by the cf supply system as an undergarment to their ncds. Ranks slip ons shall be the army pattern as currently prescribed. White tee shirts may continue to be worn.
C. Air force personnel - all personnel wearing the air force deu are authorized to wear the blue tee shirt as issued by the cf supply system as an undergarment to their ncds. Rank slip ons shall be the air force pattern as currently prescribed. White tee shirts may continue to be worn.
3. The acquisition of black tee shirts is in progress and will eventually be made available to authorized personnel through existing clothing distribution outlets. The quantity of tee shirts to be allotted for wear will be promulgated in due course


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## Eye In The Sky (6 Sep 2008)

I'll tell you what, the ABSOLUTELY stupidest looking thing I see around 12 Wing and/or MARLANT/CFB Halifax is with out question the Army slip-ons (CADPAT) worn on goddamn NCDs.

I've seen some things that have made me shake my head before, but this combination is the most mickey-mouse retarded looking thing.  Everytime I see it I think "WTF".  How the hell the authorities ever made that ok is beyond me.  Atleast the Air Force personnel don't stand out or look like they picked up their uniform at the surplus store or Salvation Army.   :

I am happy to know though, that the Navy DEU personnel can't wear the Navy rank slip-on in CADPAT.  Because that would just look stupid (like CADPAT slip-ons do on NCDs).


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## aesop081 (6 Sep 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I am happy to know though, that the Navy DEU personnel can't wear the Navy rank slip-on in CADPAT.



Why would they ? CADPAT ranks with black thread exist in the system for naval pers who wear CADPAT to work.


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## Eye In The Sky (6 Sep 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Why would they ? CADPAT ranks with black thread exist in the system for naval pers who wear CADPAT to work.



Yes thats what I am saying...I am glad 'someone' decided to go that way for Navy DEU pers who are required to wear CADPAT.  It would look as stupid as CADPAT on NCDs does.


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## hugh19 (6 Sep 2008)

No reason the old rifle green with gold rank slip ons could not be worn. They  look better than CADPAT on NCD's.


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## medicineman (6 Sep 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I'll tell you what, the ABSOLUTELY stupidest looking thing I see around 12 Wing and/or MARLANT/CFB Halifax is with out question the Army slip-ons (CADPAT) worn on goddamn NCDs.
> 
> I've seen some things that have made me shake my head before, but this combination is the most mickey-mouse retarded looking thing.  Everytime I see it I think "WTF".  How the hell the authorities ever made that ok is beyond me.  Atleast the Air Force personnel don't stand out or look like they picked up their uniform at the surplus store or Salvation Army.   :
> 
> I am happy to know though, that the Navy DEU personnel can't wear the Navy rank slip-on in CADPAT.  Because that would just look stupid (like CADPAT slip-ons do on NCDs).



ALMOST as stupid as some of the Air Force fossils that persist in wandering about with their wallets, oops, wedges on their melons while wearing CADPAT... I for one will be quite happy not only wearing my green T-shirts and CADPAT epaulets, but my green beret as well while wandering about in my NCD's when the need soon arrives.  Who cares if it looks stupid - they should have thought about that when they sent me to a Navy unit I guess.  What self-respecting Army guy wants to be confused for a Petty Officer when they're a Warrant Officer? 



MM


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## Eye In The Sky (6 Sep 2008)

sledge said:
			
		

> No reason the old rifle green with gold rank slip ons could not be worn. They  look better than CADPAT on NCD's.



There has to be something better than wearing CADPAT/OD green on blue shirts and black NCD jackets.


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## Eye In The Sky (6 Sep 2008)

medicineman said:
			
		

> ALMOST as stupid as some of the Air Force fossils that persist in wandering about with their wallets, oops, wedges on their melons while wearing CADPAT... I for one will be quite happy not only wearing my green T-shirts and CADPAT epaulets, but my green beret as well while wandering about in my NCD's when the need soon arrives.  *Who cares if it looks stupid * - they should have thought about that when they sent me to a Navy unit I guess.  What self-respecting Army guy wants to be confused for a Petty Officer when they're a Warrant Officer?
> 
> 
> 
> MM



Agreed on the head-wallet/CADPAT issue.  If people are still doing it, that is a LEADERSHIP issue as the directive from the CAS has been out for quite some time stating it is no longer authorized dress.  Those mbr's who still are should be sorted out by their CoC.

Atleast you agree that it DOES look stupid   ;D and FWIW, I'll never have to wear it BUT it looks retarded IMO.  You don't think your green beret gives you away as 'army' the same as my blue was gives me away as 'air force'?


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## aesop081 (6 Sep 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Those mbr's who still are should be sorted out by their CoC.



Doest have to be from their CoC. It can be by anyone with the appropriate rank. I saw one individual from another unit doing exactly that not long ago. One of my jobs as a Sr. NCO is to enforce standards. I did exactly that.


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## Eye In The Sky (6 Sep 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Doest have to be from their CoC. It can be by anyone with the appropriate rank. I saw one individual from another unit doing exactly that not long ago. One of my jobs as a Sr. NCO is to enforce standards. I did exactly that.



If they were still wearing the wedge this long AFTER the directive, that is a failure of their CoC.  Someone from their unit *must* have seen them wearing the damn thing.  I was the same rank you are now (for 9 years), and am aware of the rest of that stuff, and did the same thing myself.   8)


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## Neill McKay (6 Sep 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I'll tell you what, the ABSOLUTELY stupidest looking thing I see around 12 Wing and/or MARLANT/CFB Halifax is with out question the Army slip-ons (CADPAT) worn on goddamn NCDs.



Are army and air force pers now wearing NCDs ashore?


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## NCRCrow (6 Sep 2008)

I pick up people for there dress regardless of the rank.

Like yesterday a LCDR wearing a Beret in his DEU's, or the PO1 Submarnier with his Dolphins on the wrong side of his shirt. Unreal!

I agree with army pers wearing CADPAT Slips-Ons on NCD's looks retarded and my last two COXN's squashed it.


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## dimsum (6 Sep 2008)

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> Like yesterday a LCDR wearing a Beret in his DEU's



Technically, unless it's DEU 1 (with medals), it's not wrong.  Unusual, yes.  Reminds me of a commercial a few months ago (I can't remembe for what) with a LS in DEU and a beret.


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## Eye In The Sky (6 Sep 2008)

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> I agree with army pers wearing CADPAT Slips-Ons on NCD's looks retarded and my last two COXN's squashed it.



What slip-on did they wear?


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## NCRCrow (6 Sep 2008)

CADPAT Slip-On

I have never seen somebody wearing 1A's and a Beret. But I may be wrong.


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## medicineman (6 Sep 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> There has to be something better than wearing CADPAT/OD green on blue shirts and black NCD jackets.



I'd just be happy wearing CADPAT - however, as there is too much polyester in it to safely wear in an area where there is a possibility of fire in the people tube, I guess I don't have alot of choice.  And to be honest, wearing the green beret with the uniform looks more retarded than the slipons IMO - what do the poor Army schmoes stuck at sea have to say about CADPAT NCD's  ;D? 

MM


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## Neill McKay (6 Sep 2008)

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> Like yesterday a LCDR wearing a Beret in his DEU's,



Berets are now authorized with 3A and 3C dress, and with 3B when the black (but not white) pants or skirt are being worn.  (Still not authorized for any rig that includes a tunic.)  However, like wearing boots with DEU, it seems not to be the done thing for officers.


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## Eye In The Sky (6 Sep 2008)

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> CADPAT Slip-On
> 
> I have never seen somebody wearing 1A's and a Beret. But I may be wrong.



No I mean....if the Coxn squashed the wearing of the CADPAT one, what one did he/she have them wear?


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## Eye In The Sky (6 Sep 2008)

N. McKay said:
			
		

> Berets are now authorized with 3A and 3C dress, and with 3B when the black (but not white) pants or skirt are being worn.  (Still not authorized for any rig that includes a tunic.)  However, like wearing boots with DEU, it seems not to be the done thing for officers.



From the good book, CFP 265. Chapter 6, Section 1, Para 3. Navy Uniforms:

a.  Except as noted in sub-paragraph b., navy personnel shall wear the following headdress: 

(1) ceremonial, mess and service dress – cap/hat service dress, tuque, Yukon cap, or turban; 

(2) No. 2C (mess shipboard), No.3E base dress and No. 5D (tropical shipboard) orders – as above and beret; and

(3) operational dress (other than No. 5D) – beret, turban, or other headdress suitable for wear on operations.

b.  Members of a submarine’s company may wear the beret with all orders of dress when deployed away from their home port or when moving to and from their boat on the day of departure or return from deployment.

c.  Navy military police shall wear a scarlet band/ribbon on their cap/hat/turban service dress and a scarlet cloth backing to their cap badges on the beret in accordance with Chapter 7.

d.  The beret may be worn as an optional headdress with the following navy order of dress: Nos. 3A, 3B (with black trousers/pants/skirt) and 3C. The service dress CAP/HAT shall be the only authorized headdress to be worn with No. 3 and 3B (summer whites) orders of dress.


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## jollyjacktar (6 Sep 2008)

The commercial mentioned was one of a series last year with returned perrsonnel from overseas, TFA mostly IIRC.  It was a Leading Seaman sitting wearing a tunic and he did have a beret on his lap.  He was a Clearance Diver.
As for Naval personnel in CADPAT, I am in Valcartier presently for workups.  They don't issue CADPAT slip-ons with black thread anymore as they are not authorised due to the rank being too hard to see.  What you can get is OD with black thread or you can wear the Army slip-ons.  I have both, but have been wearing the Navy ones.  Wish they would hurry with the black tee shirts.


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## Eye In The Sky (6 Sep 2008)

I didn't think they *ever* produced or issued out CADPAT slip-ons with black thread for the navy, after the Air Force circus with the slip-ons.  I thought the navy with directly to the CAG (Canadian Average Green) w/black thread for name tapes and rank slip-ons.


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## jollyjacktar (6 Sep 2008)

That is what I was told at the tailor's week before last when I was topping up my slip-ons and asked for the Navy  CADPAT type. He did not say if they went out the door in any numbers or at all before being quashed, but you Can't get them or wear them now.


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## Ecco (6 Sep 2008)

medicineman said:
			
		

> I'd just be happy wearing CADPAT - however, as there is too much polyester in it to safely wear in an area where there is a possibility of fire in the people tube, I guess I don't have alot of choice.



There is no polyester in Army CADPAT uniform.  It's a weave of 50% cotton, 50% nylon.  However, the general idea of your message is true:  The NCD have significant FR capability that caters to Navy-specific requirements.


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## aesop081 (6 Sep 2008)

Ecco said:
			
		

> The NCD have significant FR capability



Until people wash them at home mixed with their regular clothes and until they dry them at home with a dryer sheet...........after that, not so much.


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## Klinkaroo (6 Sep 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Until people wash them at home mixed with their regular clothes and until they dry them at home with a dryer sheet...........after that, not so much.



Don't forget ironing the crease too


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## medicineman (6 Sep 2008)

Ecco said:
			
		

> There is no polyester in Army CADPAT uniform.  It's a weave of 50% cotton, 50% nylon.  However, the general idea of your message is true:  The NCD have significant FR capability that caters to Navy-specific requirements.



Nylon is no better - it also melts when lit up, and therefore sticks to skin, and then has to be scrubbed off, sometimes taking skin with it, etc ad nauseum.

MM


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## Klinkaroo (6 Sep 2008)

medicineman said:
			
		

> Nylon is no better - it also melts when lit up, and therefore sticks to skin, and then has to be scrubbed off, sometimes taking skin with it, etc ad nauseum.
> 
> MM



That is exactly what he said before, Cadpat is dangerous in an environment that has the possibility of having fire that is why we wear NCD's that are "Fire Resistant". There is no Nylon in the NCD's (well fairly sure but couldn't find reference on label), they are made with NOMEX fibers that are flame resistant.


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## aesop081 (6 Sep 2008)

Klinkaroo said:
			
		

> they are made with NOMEX fibres that are flame *resistent*.



Retardent.......NCDs will burn.


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## Neill McKay (7 Sep 2008)

Klinkaroo said:
			
		

> Don't forget ironing the crease too



You can iron NCDs without affecting the fire retardancy.



			
				CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Retardent.......NCDs will burn.



A PO on one of my courses described a lower-deck science experiment in which it was supposedly discovered that the DEU sweater was actually more fire retardant that the NCD jacket.


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## gwp (7 Sep 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I didn't think they *ever* produced or issued out CADPAT slip-ons with black thread for the navy, after the Air Force circus with the slip-ons.  I thought the navy with directly to the CAG (Canadian Average Green) w/black thread for name tapes and rank slip-ons.



You are correct with regard to CADPAT slips with black thread.  What follows is the message referenced in the OP re NCD and T-shirts message.  There has been no change  (reversal) wrt sailors in CADPAT wearing sailor black CAG slippons.  _Excuse the over capitalization ... the copy and paste did it._ 

To Canforgen
Bt
Unclas Canforgen 027-07 Cms 008-07
Sic Wan
Subj: Naval Dress Update - Naval Environmental Indicators - Cadpat
Bilingual Message/message Bilingue
1. For The Naval Element There Is An Existing Need To Preserve Environmental Identity When Authorized To Wear Cadpat/lwcc. To Achieve This Aim, The Introduction Of Distinctive Navy Identifiers, similar To Those Currently Being Worn By Air Force Personnel, Is Being Introduced 
2. Approved Navy Identifiers For All Navy Deu Personnel Who Are Required To Wear Cadpat/lwcc Are As Follows:
A. Distinctive Rank Indicators (slip-ons). Black Thread On Canadian Average Green (cag) Background,
B. Distinctive Nametape. Black Thread On Cag Background And The Navy Insignia (anchor) Worn On The Left Of The Nametape, And
C. Black T-shirt. These Identifiers Will Complement The Current Navy Black Beret Approved For Wear With Capdat/lwcc
3. Distinct Navy Identifiers Are Approved For Wear With Cadpat/lwcc In Canada Dependent On The Operational Context Of The Unit - Ie. In Non-tactical Situations As Deemed By The Operational Commander. Authorization On Overseas Operations Will Be At The Discretion Of The Theatre Commander Based On The Operational Situation
4. Navy Identifiers Are Only Authorized For Wear With The Temperate Woodland (tw) Cadpat/lwcc And Shall Not Be Worn With Other Cadpat Designs (i.e. Arid)
5. The Acquisition Of Distinctive Ranks, Distinctive Nametape, And The Black T Shirt Is In Progress And Will Eventually Be Made Available To Authorized Personnel Through Existing Clothing Distribution Outlets. The Qty Of Nametapes, Rank Slip-ons And T-shirts To Be Allotted For Wear With Cadpat/lwcc Will Also Be Promulgated In Due Course
6. In The Interim, As An Optional Measure, Navy Deu Personnel Who So Wish, Are Authorized To Acquire And Wear, At No Cost To The Crown, A Crew Neck T-shirt Without Logos, Jet Black In Colour, 75 Percent Cotton (plus/minus 5 Percent) / 25 Percent Polyester (plus/minus 5 Percent)
7. Further Information On The General Availability Of The Aforementioned Cadpat/lwcc Dress Items Will Be Communicated As Soon As Possible.


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## gwp (7 Sep 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Until people wash them at home mixed with their regular clothes and until they dry them at home with a dryer sheet...........after that, not so much.


From the NOMEX Laundering Guide

"No llaundry procedures are known to remove the flame resistance of NOMEX"  (top right page I-5) - See also III-12 re use of anti-static sheets improving the "feel" of NOMEX items.  

http://www2.dupont.com/Personal_Protection/en_US/assets/downloads/nomex/h71603launderingguidefornomexaramidfiber.pdf

And from their Thermal Bulliten

"the flame resistant properties of NOMEX fabric come from the inherently FR fibers and cannot be washed out or worn away.

http://www2.dupont.com/Personal_Protection/en_US/assets/downloads/protera/K16877ThermalBulletin.pdf


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## aesop081 (7 Sep 2008)

gwp said:
			
		

> From the NOMEX Laundering Guide
> 
> "No llaundry procedures are known to remove the flame resistance of NOMEX"  (top right page I-5)
> 
> http://www2.dupont.com/Personal_Protection/en_US/assets/downloads/nomex/h71603launderingguidefornomexaramidfiber.pdf



I will take what my ALSE lectures and what CFSSAT had to say about that over what the company says thanks.


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## medicineman (23 Jan 2009)

Well, went to work dressed like a dork today - you got it, my NCD's, complete with green beret, CADPAT rank insignia and green T-shirt.  Gotta get used to it, since NETP starts Monday.  There is something just so wrong about how that all looks...but hey, it's the responsibility of someone in the Puzzle Palace, not mine.  On the bright side, I'm not the only one gonna look weird on Monday - the other PA and one of our docs is also on course with me  ;D.

Wish me luck.

MM


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## dimsum (23 Jan 2009)

A tad off-topic, but in the general realm of "why wearing clothes that burn is bad":

If CADPAT isn't fire-retardant, then why do tank/LAV crews wear it?  It's also a metal box that burns easily (with tons of flammable stuff)   ???


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## Klinkaroo (23 Jan 2009)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> A tad off-topic, but in the general realm of "why wearing clothes that burn is bad":
> 
> If CADPAT isn't fire-retardant, then why do tank/LAV crews wear it?  It's also a metal box that burns easily (with tons of flammable stuff)   ???



I'll try this one but feel free to correct me.

Possibly because tank lav crews are able to "escape" (I know you can argue me and all that but still you can run from the vehicule). On a ship if a fire erupts, the ships crew become the fire fighting crews and have to stay with the fire.

That's my best guess hopefully I'm close.


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## chrisf (23 Jan 2009)

A flash fire is a flash fire...


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## Eye In The Sky (28 Jan 2009)

Klinkaroo said:
			
		

> I'll try this one but feel free to correct me.
> 
> Possibly because tank lav crews are able to "escape" (I know you can argue me and all that but still you can run from the vehicule). On a ship if a fire erupts, the ships crew become the fire fighting crews and have to stay with the fire.
> 
> That's my best guess hopefully I'm close.



So...what if said LAV is doing 80 km/h on a road move from PV to the K lines?  Everyone just bails out??

I'll stop at the one example where the crew just can't 'escape'.  Life isn't perfect in a AFV crew either.


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## Klinkaroo (28 Jan 2009)

Well my argument was alot less of the fact that the crew may escape it was more the fact that they don't become fire fighting attack teams... but I tottaly agree if your driving at high speeds or rolled over or something the things aren't that easy to get out of...


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## trigger324 (12 Sep 2010)

gwp said:
			
		

> ...until black tee shirts are issued by the cf supply system.





I know I'm digging this up from the past, but have said black tee shirts been issued yet?  I see people wearing them but I've heard nothing more about it, like it might be just any old black shirt that they own under their NCD shirt.


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## Ex-Dragoon (12 Sep 2010)

trigger324 said:
			
		

> I know I'm digging this up from the past, but have said black tee shirts been issued yet?  I see people wearing them but I've heard nothing more about it, like it might be just any old black shirt that they own under their NCD shirt.



They have....we got them through the Storemen onboard ship.


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