# Blood Type Tattoo



## edgar

I keep seeing people with their blood type on their kit, and even tattooed on their skin. But my wife (MCpl Medic back in the 90's) told me that anybody who has whole blood to put in you, BMS or whatever will, without exception, blood type you before they transfuse. Anybody who does not have the ability to blood type you only carries plasma anyway. Have we been wasting a whole lot of jiffy marker?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

It makes sense. Especially if you are injured and need medivac. At least they can call back, from the incident, with the info, and at least have something ready when you get there. If it's going to help save my, or someone else's, life, the time and marker to do it is immaterial. Besides, they tell me to mark it down, I mark it down. Decisions such as this are made for a reason and by people higher than me.


----------



## Armymedic

Waste of marker. 

Its on your dog tags. If you want more, velcro tag on you cbt sleeve or gear works as we can take that off and attach it to whatever goes on its way to the hosp.

If you are going to write it in marker on anywhere, put it on your skin...as all your kit and clothing tends to disappear by the time you arrive where they hold the blood.


----------



## KevinB

Depends - some medics/medical people in some units are carrying whole blood - as its a lot better for carrying oxygen than plasma.

   As well during a MCI it can streamline the process.



*Kevin is not advocating giving unk's blood without typing them - but inside a small unit, or during a large crisis...


----------



## edgar

recceguy said:
			
		

> If it's going to help save my, or someone else's, life, the time and marker to do it is immaterial. Besides, they tell me to mark it down, I mark it down. Decisions such as this are made for a reason and by people higher than me.



That's the point. It makes no difference to anyone's life, and saves exactly 0 (zero) time. The people telling you to write your blood type on your kit made that decision in error and as high as they may be, they are not qualified to make it. They just don't know anything about transfusions, blood typing, who does it and when. 
Unless that word comes down through the MO, in which case the answer to my original post may be "False, the field hospital does not type people, they do read dogtags and various belt pouches, and we have not been wasting jiffy marker".

Call back from the incident with info? Why would a guy with blood typing kit do that? Is any self respecting doctor going to trust some random accident scene person, maybe reading info off some webbing he found nearby or worse, a field dressing wrapper?

And finally, since jiffy markers come from the Canex out of pocket, it has no net effect on the defence budget.

Not trying to take the piss here, I'd probably just take your word if we were talking about recce stuff. 

Edit: and when I get back in, and some MCpl at the battle school tells me to write my blood type on my field dressing, you can bet I'm going to tell him that would be a stupid waste of time. Or maybe not.


----------



## edgar

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> Depends - some medics/medical people in some units are carrying whole blood - as its a lot better for carrying oxygen than plasma.
> 
> As well during a MCI it can streamline the process.
> 
> 
> 
> *Kevin is not advocating giving unk's blood without typing them - but inside a small unit, or during a large crisis...



Exactly. Is blood typing easy like a pregnancy test? Just dip and by the time you got the needle in you got an answer? If my missuss was here I could tell you right away. I bet blood typing testers are issued with the bag of whole blood.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

I don't know what the heartache is. It cost no time, and relatively little money, if you want to count your precious markers. If it helps the soldier feel confident and comfortable, that in itself is a good enough reason. 

This is starting to sound like people with nothing better to do, turning a non issue into a crisis, in order to further their little fiefdom (read empire builders), ego and influence.

I've already wasted more time on this than it's worth.

Off to remark my kit now


----------



## edgar

recceguy said:
			
		

> I don't know what the heartache is. It cost no time, and relatively little money, if you want to count your precious markers. If it helps the soldier feel confident and comfortable, that in itself is a good enough reason.
> 
> This is starting to sound like people with nothing better to do, turning a non issue into a crisis, in order to further their little fiefdom (read empire builders), ego and influence.
> 
> I've already wasted more time on this than it's worth.
> 
> Off to remark my kit now



Yeah the fumes from those markers are some harsh eh? You might want to open a window.


----------



## medicineman

Doesn't make alot of difference what your blood group is - blood will be grouped and crossmatched as required and if there isn't time, O Negative is given if whole blood is needed.  The little bit of time required is to make sure the life that's saved stays saved.  
MM


----------



## Fishbone Jones

edgar said:
			
		

> Yeah the fumes from those markers are some harsh eh? You might want to open a window.



The altered state helps me partially understand some of the goofier, time consuming posts we get here, and at least prompts me to try and answer them. Fresh air just helps me recover and rebuke myself for losing another twenty minutes of my life on nothing of consequence.

That's better, back to reality. Excuse my while I close the window and move on to something useful..


----------



## edgar

medicineman said:
			
		

> Doesn't make alot of difference what your blood group is - blood will be grouped and crossmatched as required and if there isn't time, O Negative is given if whole blood is needed.  The little bit of time required is to make sure the life that's saved stays saved.
> MM



Seen. I forgot O negative is the "universal donor". So if a medic deploys with whole blood it's O-? 
The way I think, I wouldn't take anything else, as a failsafe, that way if I fuck up I can't possibly give the wrong blood and cause the bad reaction.
(I expect to fuck up, that way I can't possibly be dissappointed)


----------



## Danjanou

I wouldn’t recommend getting it under your left arm

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=2030I


----------



## 1feral1

Just remember, whatever your decision is - it does not wash off, Ha! 

I have seen the blood type tatts done quite stylish.

I do have tatts, but not this type.

I have also seen others with felt marker write it on their arms, prior to going out on a mission. We all carried casualty cards in our pockets pre filled out with the essentials. Others had their blood group on velcro attached patches on their body armour, but this was frowned on by our command for some reason.


Cheers,

Wes


----------



## Blackadder1916

Blood type on ID disks and tattoo makes for an interesting discussion, particularly when it turns to the reason for having it there.  Even the ones who make use of it (professionally) forget the reason why it was originally done.  The following refers to the US Army but it probably applies to most any military.

MILITARY TRANSFUSION PRACTICE This pdf link is an interesting read for those seeking some info about military blood transfusion from both a (semi-)contemporary and historical perspective.


> Determination of blood groups for identification tags (ie, dog tags) is not done in medical laboratories, and here may be a 3% to 6% error rate in either the ABO or the Rh blood groups, although a recent study indicates that the risk may be lower. During World War II, however, when blood had to be given in emergencies in forward hospitals and tests for compatibility were impractical, the blood group of the recipient had to be accepted on the basis of his identification tag, in which the known error was from 5 to 25 percent.
> 
> *Previously, these percentages of error had been acknowledged in the context that dog tags were designed only to identify potential donors and were not designed to be used for transfusions on individual patients.*
> 
> However, even contemporary medical officers who are unfamiliar with this philosophy may assume that identity tags are provided to guide transfusions without confirmatory testing, as World War II–era medical officers did:
> 
> Circular Letter No. 170, Office of The Surgeon General, War Department, Services of Supply. In this letter [dated 2 December 1942], it was pointed out that the policy of blood grouping of military personnel and its purpose seems to have been misunderstood by some medical officers.... [T]he assumption that the first [dog tag or identification tag] typing test would be the only one performed was based on a false premise. *To correct the misconception it was pointed out again that the purpose of the program was to simplify assembling donors whose blood would probably crossmatch with that of intended recipients.*


----------



## medic65726

First, I have no experience with how CF members determine their blood type for ID tags but I can tell you a few things about the Civvie world.
First, no-one in an emergent setting uses whole blood anymore as there are more risks of reactions when using blood that has not been separated into it's usable components. Whole blood is only ever used in autologous blood donation as in you donate your own blood for your own use prior to having a scheduled surgery.
In emergency use the most commonly used blood product is PRBC or packed red blood cells, this is whole blood that has had most of the fluid and plasma and leukocytes removed and is basically just red blood cells. Is used to treat significant hemmorhage as it replaces oxygen carrying capability. As a side not, one unit of PRBC (about 350ml, raises the Hemoglobin by about 10).
The other products used are FFP, Fresh Frozen Plasma, which has to be thawed before use and contains all the normal clotting factors. Is used in the setting of a significant transfusion being required and/or ongoing hemmorhage such as a Gastro-intestinal or intra-cranial bleed. Platelets can also be administered separately after FFP to help with restoring normal blood clotting. Very important in trauma and surgery.
Ideally all blood is typed (ABO & Rh) and crossmached. Crossmaching takes an hour and involves mixing samples of the donor blood and recipient blood to check for reactions. ABO/Rh typing can be done within a few minutes, 15 IIRC.
On occasion I have waited for type specific blood and sometimes the hospitals have already typed and crossed units before we get there, but most emergency transfusions are of O blood. The Rh factor is only really important in the case of subsequent transfusions or in women of child-bearing age who may go on to have children. If they get Rh +ve blood and are Rh -ve they can have a reaction that can kill a fetus if not treated. So men and elderly women get O Neg or O Pos, all other women we give O Neg if we don't have type specific or crossmatched. Just have limited supplies of all blood and don't wnat to use O Neg when you don't have to.
I don't think I would ever trust tags or tatts when transfusing blood and agree it is likely most helpful for identifying donors.
Just my 2 cents and sorry if it got off topic.


----------



## Old Sweat

This is a fascinating discussion. 

How did somebody determine that my blood group was ORhPos and how did that get on my dog tags? I have no durn idea, other than that when I enlisted the medics took gobs of blood. Betting that the Royal Canadan Medical Corps then did not draw a blood group out of a hat, or arbitrarily grab a set of identity discs with the blood group already stamped on, it seems to me that the medics proved info to whoever the heck made these things and the rest, as they say, is history.


----------



## edgar

Medic65726 said:
			
		

> First, I have no experience with how CF members determine their blood type for ID tags but I can tell you a few things about the Civvie world.
> First, no-one in an emergent setting uses whole blood anymore as there are more risks of reactions when using blood that has not been separated into it's usable components. Whole blood is only ever used in autologous blood donation as in you donate your own blood for your own use prior to having a scheduled surgery.
> In emergency use the most commonly used blood product is PRBC or packed red blood cells, this is whole blood that has had most of the fluid and plasma and leukocytes removed and is basically just red blood cells. Is used to treat significant hemmorhage as it replaces oxygen carrying capability. As a side not, one unit of PRBC (about 350ml, raises the Hemoglobin by about 10).
> The other products used are FFP, Fresh Frozen Plasma, which has to be thawed before use and contains all the normal clotting factors. Is used in the setting of a significant transfusion being required and/or ongoing hemmorhage such as a Gastro-intestinal or intra-cranial bleed. Platelets can also be administered separately after FFP to help with restoring normal blood clotting. Very important in trauma and surgery.
> Ideally all blood is typed (ABO & Rh) and crossmached. Crossmaching takes an hour and involves mixing samples of the donor blood and recipient blood to check for reactions. ABO/Rh typing can be done within a few minutes, 15 IIRC.
> On occasion I have waited for type specific blood and sometimes the hospitals have already typed and crossed units before we get there, but most emergency transfusions are of O blood. The Rh factor is only really important in the case of subsequent transfusions or in women of child-bearing age who may go on to have children. If they get Rh +ve blood and are Rh -ve they can have a reaction that can kill a fetus if not treated. So men and elderly women get O Neg or O Pos, all other women we give O Neg if we don't have type specific or crossmatched. Just have limited supplies of all blood and don't wnat to use O Neg when you don't have to.
> I don't think I would ever trust tags or tatts when transfusing blood and agree it is likely most helpful for identifying donors.
> Just my 2 cents and sorry if it got off topic.


Actually, that was bang on.


----------



## DartmouthDave

Hello, 

I agree.  Good post Medic65726.


----------



## kj_gully

> First, no-one in an emergent setting uses whole blood anymore


 We'll see if this holds true in the future, as once again conflict and treating battlefield injuries brings sober second thought to old "norms" in emergency care. You don't have to look far ( read the article in the thread "Doctors gory tale angers... etc" in this forum for instance), to find how military medicine is falling in love all over again with whole blood transfusing. I have heard/ read doctors gushing all over themselves about the resusitative benefits of whole blood vs PRBC. Maybe Civil practice will find it impractical to use, but I'm sure it will raise some interest and consideration


----------



## medic65726

Good point. It is unfortunate but true that many major advances in medicine have come as a result of armed conflict. Rather Ironic from a Hippocratic standpoint, but it provides a large number of injured, but previously healthy subjects and as such makes for great research/study material.


----------



## KevinB

After reading the book "Roberts Ridge" and talking to some of the "guys who dont exist" here - there are people using whole blood in combat lifesaving...


----------



## daftandbarmy

Learning Moment: If you are ever asked by someone with a big honking hollow needle in their hand what your blood type is, don't answer 'Blue'. They might not think it's funny - and then they might just (legally) hurt you...   :'(


----------



## RatCatcher

First of all, last time I checked medics don't carry any blood with them. Any cas that will receive blood will get it at a facility with a lab, who will cross match the blood prior (hence one of the reasons they take blood in the trauma bays).  If they need it right away it will ffp or O-. They will ingnore any tats or anything written on kit... in case of people with the wrong type on tags.


----------



## KevinB

RatCatcher said:
			
		

> First of all, last time I checked medics don't carry any blood with them. Any cas that will receive blood will get it at a facility with a lab, who will cross match the blood prior (hence one of the reasons they take blood in the trauma bays).  If they need it right away it will ffp or O-. They will ingnore any tats or anything written on kit... in case of people with the wrong type on tags.



Your quoting conventional force doctrine -- I wasn't


----------



## Armymedic

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> After reading the book "Roberts Ridge" and talking to some of the "guys who dont exist" here - there are people using whole blood in combat lifesaving...





			
				RatCatcher said:
			
		

> First of all, last time I checked medics don't carry any blood with them. Any cas that will receive blood will get it at a facility with a lab, who will cross match the blood prior (hence one of the reasons they take blood in the trauma bays).  If they need it right away it will ffp or O-. They will ingnore any tats or anything written on kit... in case of people with the wrong type on tags.





			
				Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> Your quoting conventional force doctrine -- I wasn't



So true, so true.


----------



## medic65726

I'll check with my friend who's working in the hospital in Kandahar and see what they are doing.


----------



## medicineman

I think you'll find that whole blood is coming back into vogue a bit in the military sphere due primarily to availability and convenience (ie walking donors).  Only a couple of years ago when I was in Haiti, I'm pretty sure there was whole blood at the ASC and I remember the US Navy guys had to burn about 30 units prior to them leaving due to the best before date coming a little too close to when they were leaving (a crying shame really, but it had to be done I guess).  MTF I'm sure.

MM


----------



## medic65726

Straight from staff at the Hospital in Kandahar:
"On arrival to our facility, each casualty gets a trauma panel of blood work that if required a group and match/screen is done. Western coalition troops all have our blood typing done and is on our ID/dog tags. Afgahan troops, a type and screening would be done if necessary. O neg blood, we have. FFP we use a fair amount of, mostly for concerns re INR/PTT. Packed cells are used. In a crisis requiring lots of blood, we initiate the "walking blood bank." A form of blood dontaion from pre-screened troops. I don't believe we have ever had to use it but it is in order. Right now, blood comes from USA or Netherlands blood banks. I have seen some US troops with bllod type and service number tatoo'd but this is an individual decision. Not a bad idea though."


----------



## Fraser.g

I was an RN at the Role 3 at KAF and will state that as of December 06 all pers that came through the trauma bays were typed and crossed before type specific blood products were given. We never looked for dog tags, tats, patches or any other indicators of blood type. Every one was tested...period.

There is much more than just the type and RH factor that must be tested for included anti bodies. If you have ever gotten a blood transfusion in the past, you may have antibodies in your blood and that will eliminate some units of blood.


----------



## TN2IC

Is there anyone here in the CF that got some blood type tattoo? Pictures please...  

Regards,
TN2IC


----------



## Armymedic

OK, Now just to summarize for all:

If you are a member of the conventional CF, tattooing or inking yourself and your gear with your blood type is a waste of time. It is because CF medics do not carry blood products, and you will be typed and crossmatched before receiving blood products in any NATO military or civilian medical facility.


----------



## X Royal

Another point is that if a standard place for the tattoo is not specified will the medic find it?
Nowadays some people are tattooing their medical alert info on themselves. If in an emergency situation, if it's not readily visible hows does a medical first responder find it. Not by touch on a rapid body survey. A bracelet, necklace or dogtags are easily felt & are places commonly checked for.


----------



## kratz

X Royal

+1


----------



## DartmouthDave

Hello,

Dose anybody have any studies on the use of whole blood.

The only whole blood that I have seen used is autologous blood transfusion from chest tubes (once).  Other than that just the standard PRBC, FFP, ect.

David


----------



## Blackadder1916

DartmouthDave said:
			
		

> Dose anybody have any studies on the use of whole blood.



http://www.usaisr.amedd.army.mil/gwot/FWB%20-%20Kauvar%202006%20J%20Trauma.pdf
Fresh Whole Blood Transfusion: A Controversial Military Practice
(Abstract - complete article at link)


> David S. Kauvar, MD, John B. Holcomb, MD, Gary C. Norris, MPH, and John R. Hess, MD
> The transfusion of fresh whole blood (FWB) for trauma-induced coagulopathy is unusual in civilian practice. However, US military physicians have used FWB in every combat operation since the practice was introduced in World War I and continue to do so during current military operations. We discuss our review of all blood products administered to US military casualties in Operation Iraqi Freedom (OIF) between March and December 2003. FWB transfusions were most frequent when demands for massive transfusions wiped out existing blood supplies.  FWB patients had the highest blood product requirements; however, mortality did not differ significantly between FWB and non-FWB patients overall or for massively transfused patients. We review the current military practice of FWB transfusion in combat theaters and conclude that FWB transfusion is convenient, safe, and effective in certain military situations. J Trauma. 2006;61:181–184.



Also look at the hyperlink in previous post http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/66056/post-613986.html#msg613986


----------



## elder medic

Fascinating subject with many good and bad points. Speaking from my own viewpoint as an ex-member of the Corps,  who served with the RCR in Korea, we had no whole blood products other than plasma.  In the rifle companies we had NO blood byproducts whatsoever. Plasma was the product of choice until one got back to a MASH. I have been fortunate in that at 75 I have never needed such product, but had I needed it in the Korean business, could have been disaster. My dogtags carried one type, and in my 5th year of service, I attempted to donate to Red Cross. Refused due to malaria. However they did determine that my type and Rh was NOT what my dogtags said.   This is why any responsible medical facility does type and cross match as required without dumping in any old thing.
Just a word of personal experience from the old guy.  


_Edited by Vern to remove line 3._


----------



## elder medic

FURTHER TO ABOVE:
My apologies. Seems as though the bugs got at my PC again  . Line three  should not be there  Don't know where or why it came from.


----------



## armyvern

elder medic said:
			
		

> FURTHER TO ABOVE:
> My apologies. Seems as though the bugs got at my PC again  . Line three  should not be there  Don't know where or why it came from.



I took it out of there for you.

Vern


----------



## daftandbarmy

elder medic said:
			
		

> Fascinating subject with many good and bad points. Speaking from my own viewpoint as an ex-member of the Corps,  who served with the RCR in Korea, we had no whole blood products other than plasma.  In the rifle companies we had NO blood byproducts whatsoever. Plasma was the product of choice until one got back to a MASH. I have been fortunate in that at 75 I have never needed such product, but had I needed it in the Korean business, could have been disaster. My dogtags carried one type, and in my 5th year of service, I attempted to donate to Red Cross. Refused due to malaria. However they did determine that my type and Rh was NOT what my dogtags said.   This is why any responsible medical facility does type and cross match as required without dumping in any old thing.
> Just a word of personal experience from the old guy.
> 
> 
> _Edited by Vern to remove line 3._



Elder Medic,

What kind of medical support was available to the platoon/company in Korea? My understanding was that it was much better than previous conflicts.


----------



## elder medic

Good question, Daft. The establishment called for one Cpl, RCAMC for each rifle company. I don't believe Support Co'y got one. Back at the RAP was the RMO, (we had a Captain at one time, followed by a Major followed by another Major) a Sgt., battalion Hygiene Cpl, and a couple of other Cpls or Ptes "dogs bodies",(all RCAMC) 1 Korean interpreter, and a "houseboy" for the RMO.
 We decided who should go on sick parade, where and how the latrines were placed and general health issues. My own experience was that any night action my co'y was involved in, whether in co'y or platoon strength, also involved me. I went out on patrol with 1 stretcher, and a huge haversack of shell dressings. PERIOD. In my bunker I also had a standard first aid kit, which meant many trips to the RAP to replenish it. Also armed with 2 Colt 45's scrounged from USMC, sometimes a Webley 38. My first patrol I took my rifle. Never again.
Since I found this site, I have often thought had we the supplies available today, we might have saved a few more lives. But then again, at Waterloo, casualties would have been fewer if they had our equipment, such as it was. Nothing advances military medicine like a war.
Hope this answers your question.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Cool. A medic decked out with a couple of 45s, just like George Patton (but more useful).


----------



## elder medic

Daftandbarmy:  Just realized I didn't answer your point of whether or not our care was superior to the past. We were only 6 years from WW 2, and our training, equipment and establishments were based on what was in effect in that period. About the only major change was the availability of penicllin, and the sulfa family of drugs


----------



## daftandbarmy

Thanks. I'm assuming then that the standard of practise was pretty high. You said that you went on patrol alot. What type training - if any - did you get for that type of work with the infantry? If you had your 'druthers, what else would you have had to make you more effective (apart from access to whole blood)?


----------



## elder medic

I hate to say it, but sometimes I tend to get somewhat wordy  I think too much so for this forum. If you'd like to send me an email, I'll get back to you ASAP.  Address in my profile.
Pro Patria   
Bob


----------

