# Service Dress - Right On!



## IntlBr (15 Feb 2008)

Alright, lead in to this is an Army News video, so here it is:

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1_1.asp?id=2342

You'll notice that the P&D fellows we sent over are all dressed in the fantastic Service Dress (No.2s) of the British Army.

My only question.... How in the heck?  If it appears on the Army News - It must be legit!   

I think these uniforms are much, much better than our current rifle green DEU.  Any thoughts on this?  The only times I've heard Service Dress for us mentioned in the past, everyone has given nods of approval - but certainly, this isn't "approved", is it?


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## Michael OLeary (15 Feb 2008)

49th Battalion Pipes & Drums



> The 49th Battalion Pipes & Drums is a re-enactment of the historical pipe band originally established in the 49th Battalion in 1915, before that unit went overseas.
> 
> In the spirit of paying tribute to the tradition of Edmonton's military pipe bands, the band wears the badge of the pipe band of the 1st Battalion, The Edmonton Regiment, established in 1920.
> 
> The band is made up entirely of serving members of The Loyal Edmonton Regiment, the present-day militia unit whose members are proud to wear the "49" on their cap badge.



See also http://www.49thbattalion.ca/bandtoday.html



> The band is not funded by the Regiment or by the Canadian Forces.  Band activities are separate from Regimental duties and members are not paid to play.





> In 2004 the band's fundraising arm, The Black Hackle Foundation, began outfitting the band with drums and uniforms.  The band's unique historical uniforms are based on the World War I service dress of non-commissioned members.
> The khaki tunics are tailor-made by a small local shop, and follow the WWI pattern worn by the original band.  The kilts are handmade locally and are of Government tartan, more commonly known as Black Watch.
> Members also wear the rank insignia in effect during World War I, and the hat badge of the pipe band of the 1st Battalion, The Edmonton Regiment, from 1920.  Their sporrans feature reproductions of the original 49th Battalion unit badge from 1915.



Welcome to the power of Google.


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## IntlBr (15 Feb 2008)

Ah, touche!

I didn't google it, because I thought there may be some provision in the Dress Regulations authorizing it.

Thank you sir.


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## geo (15 Feb 2008)

Most units have the "luxury" of applying for permission to wear older pre unification patterns of service dress.

That's how the RCHA band, R22R, PPCLI & RCR have all gotten honour guards that are back to wearing scarlets - with either a white Pith helmet or a Bearskin... however - exdcluding the bands, believe that these uniforms are all "not at government expense"


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## armyvern (15 Feb 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Most units have the "luxury" of applying for permission to wear older pre unification patterns of service dress.
> 
> That's how the RCHA band, R22R, PPCLI & RCR have all gotten honour guards that are back to wearing scarlets - with either a white Pith helmet or a Bearskin... however - exdcluding the bands, believe that these uniforms are all "not at government expense"



Ahhh bearskin ... back to that fur on soldiers bit again ...

NO!!!


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## George Wallace (15 Feb 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Most units have the "luxury" of applying for permission to wear older pre unification patterns of service dress.
> 
> That's how the RCHA band, R22R, PPCLI & RCR have all gotten honour guards that are back to wearing scarlets - with either a white Pith helmet or a Bearskin... however - exdcluding the bands, believe that these uniforms are all "not at government expense"



If I am correct, all those uniforms still have to comply with "Sealed Patterns" that are kept at DHH.

As for funding; all those uniforms are NPP (Non-Public Property) and bought through funds the Units have raised.  In the case of the Regular Force Units, it is usually funds raised by the Regimental Associations or Guilds.


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## ModlrMike (15 Feb 2008)

I always felt the Army dropped the ball when we went back to distinctive uniforms. There was an opportunity to use the current pattern in the khaki colour.


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## geo (15 Feb 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> If I am correct, all those uniforms still have to comply with "Sealed Patterns" that are kept at DHH.
> 
> As for funding; all those uniforms are NPP (Non-Public Property) and bought through funds the Units have raised.  In the case of the Regular Force Units, it is usually funds raised by the Regimental Associations or Guilds.



Sealed patterns?  Certainly historical pattern that has been used in the past.... but, it's always gotta be blessed by DHH and the dress committee.

NPP..... think that's the same as "not at government expense" isn't it?  ???


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## armyvern (16 Feb 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Sealed patterns?  Certainly historical pattern that has been used in the past.... but, it's always gotta be blessed by DHH and the dress committee.
> 
> NPP..... think that's the same as "not at government expense" isn't it?  ???



NPP = Non Public Property. That pretty much says "not at government expense" in my books.

Just as "historical pattern that has been used in the past.... but, it's always gotta be blessed by DHH and the dress committee" pretty much says "all those uniforms still have to comply with "Sealed Patterns" that are kept at DHH."

You boys can hug now; glad to have been of service. 

 >


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## TCBF (16 Feb 2008)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I always felt the Army dropped the ball when we went back to distinctive uniforms. There was an opportunity to use the current pattern in the khaki colour.



- The tan Army Service dress (1988 - 1998) was the best uniform they issued, in my opinion.


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## armyvern (16 Feb 2008)

TCBF said:
			
		

> - The tan Army Service dress (1988 - 1998) was the best uniform they issued, in my opinion.



Oh gawd ... see through in the rain ... draining the complexion of pale-faced red heads. Horrible!!

But the boys did look hot in them --- especially if they were wearing SSF footwear and funny coloured berets. Right spiffy they were.  >

(Although I much preferred it over the absolutely see-through damned AF DEU shirt!!  )


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## TCBF (16 Feb 2008)

ArmyVern (Female type) said:
			
		

> ...But the boys did look hot in them --- especially if they were wearing SSF footwear and funny coloured berets. Right spiffy they were.  >...



- The boys who didn't look good in them were pear-shaped, and since pear-shaped people ran our army in 98, they got rid of the uniforms that accentuated their shame.


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## Dirty Patricia (16 Feb 2008)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I always felt the Army dropped the ball when we went back to distinctive uniforms. There was an opportunity to use the current pattern in the khaki colour.



I totally agree.  Khaki would be much more historically significant to the Army, not to mention a lot better looking.  Those lime green shirts are horribly ugly, particularly in short sleeves.  Hopefully somebody in the right place will see to a re-design soon.  There was mention awhile ago of developing an more intermediate weight uniform, since getting rid of the tans, but nothing further ever came about.


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## Roy Harding (16 Feb 2008)

ArmyVern (Female type) said:
			
		

> Oh gawd ... see through in the rain ... draining the complexion of pale-faced red heads. Horrible!!
> 
> But the boys did look hot in them --- especially if they were wearing SSF footwear and funny coloured berets. Right spiffy they were.  >
> 
> ...



Thanks.

I don't have as much hair now - but I could probably dig up the old Tans - I KNOW I have the SSF footwear and funny coloured beret around.


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## armyvern (16 Feb 2008)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> Thanks.
> 
> I don't have as much hair now - but I could probably dig up the old Tans - I KNOW I have the SSF footwear and funny coloured beret around.



Probably in your shop --- hanging next to the snowshoes. You eating donairs right now by any chance?? Just submitted essay, now I'm starving.


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## eurowing (16 Feb 2008)

I always thought the guy that designed the ladies AF DEU shirt should have got a medal for improving my moral, although it did little to improve my morales!  >


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## armyvern (16 Feb 2008)

eurowing said:
			
		

> I always thought the guy that designed the ladies AF DEU shirt should have got a medal for improving my moral, although it did little to improve my morales!  >



Yeah, and in my particular case, I would have indeed done very little for you!!

You never saw girls so happy to shop and be willing to depart with hard earned dollars. Buying those AF windbreakers at Canex as soon as they were authorized for wear I tell you we set records!! Instead of the normal two minutes to reach the store to shop -- it took us 45 seconds. It was raining that day.


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## Roy Harding (16 Feb 2008)

ArmyVern (Female type) said:
			
		

> Probably in your shop --- hanging next to the snowshoes.



Prob'ly -  but the Tans aren't there.



			
				ArmyVern (Female type) said:
			
		

> You eating donairs right now by any chance??



Maybe - had a couple yesterday.  Who wants to know? 

Sorry for the hijack (NOT)!


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## armyvern (16 Feb 2008)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> Maybe - had a couple yesterday.  Who wants to know?



My, aren't you the lucky guy?


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## Roy Harding (16 Feb 2008)

ArmyVern (Female type) said:
			
		

> My, aren't you the lucky guy?



Luck had very little (although a certain bit) to do with it.


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## armyvern (16 Feb 2008)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> Luck had very little (although a certain bit) to do with it.



310-3030

You must live in Grecoville!


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## geo (16 Feb 2008)

> I totally agree.  Khaki would be much more historically significant to the Army, not to mention a lot better looking.  Those lime green shirts are horribly ugly, particularly in short sleeves.  Hopefully somebody in the right place will see to a re-design soon.  There was mention awhile ago of developing an more intermediate weight uniform, since getting rid of the tans, but nothing further ever came about.


 
Lime green shirts?... are you talking about the Lagoon green shirts we used to wear with the work dress?
The current batch of shirts are a far cry from "lime" in colour... you sure you aren't colour blind?  >

WRT khaki uniforms.... as long as you aren't talking about the very, very pale "tan" uniform we had for a wee while, I agree with you.  The modern tan uniform was too light in colour - got dirty too quickly and was simply a "maintenance" headache... about as much a pain in the ass as the old TWs we used to have in the 60s before unification.  A nice uniform that would look great would be the old Khaki "serge" uniform officers used to wear, fall thru spring, in the 60s.  With or without the sam browne, it was a nice uniform... throw in a bit of synthetic into the fabric to make it keep it's press & we'd be good to go.


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## ModlrMike (16 Feb 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Lime green shirts?... are you talking about the Lagoon green shirts we used to wear with the work dress?
> The current batch of shirts are a far cry from "lime" in colour... you sure you aren't colour blind?  >
> 
> WRT khaki uniforms.... as long as you aren't talking about the very, very pale "tan" uniform we had for a wee while, I agree with you.  The modern tan uniform was too light in colour - got dirty too quickly and was simply a "maintenance" headache... about as much a pain in the *** as the old TWs we used to have in the 60s before unification.  A nice uniform that would look great would be the old Khaki "serge" uniform officers used to wear, fall thru spring, in the 60s.  With or without the sam browne, it was a nice uniform... throw in a bit of synthetic into the fabric to make it keep it's press & we'd be good to go.



That's exactly the khaki uniform idea I was thinking of.


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## geo (16 Feb 2008)

.... Looks a bit like the uniform the Brits are using these days..... but their's is made from really heavy wool..... sweat your proverbial bag off with em


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## Teddy Ruxpin (16 Feb 2008)

This was the subject of an extensive discussion (and some good ideas) here:

http://Forums.Army.ca/forums/threads/70209.0.html

I, for one, am tired of looking like a green Air Canada pilot.  Khaki, please, modified to a modern, presentable "CF" standard.


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## 30 for 30 (16 Feb 2008)

Or perhaps the current greet tunic with the discontinued tan shirt underneath- which would achieve that US Vietnam-era look...better than the look of the "mint" green shirt IMHO.


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## TCBF (16 Feb 2008)

My first issue uniform was khaki (pronounced "khar-Key" if you speak proper Canadian, "Kaw-key" if a Brit and Kaw-Key" if a Yank) wool Battledress and I went through a lot of tea towels ironing it.  But, when you came back from the field with it covered in mud, you put it out on the clothesline and took the garden hose to it.

We were happy to get the new "Rifle Green" uniforms in 73.  They were called "Greens", "CF Greens" of just "CFs". They were medium weight.  The move to DEU in 88 gave us a fantastic lightweight tan and a winter heavy weight "Rifle Green" set.  Right after the ice storm, the CLS chopped the Work Dress and the Tan DEUs (which we gifted to Jamaica). We were told a new medium weight was on the way.  Since, we have subjected our soldiers to summer heat in winter DEUs.

I say, bring back the tans.  Best looking uniform yet.  Declare it "Optional Summer".

 ;D

A higher priority might be to ditch the expensive army mess kit tunic for a tan (summer) or blue (winter) "Patrols" pattern tunic with a Prussian collar.  

What to get rid of?


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## armyvern (16 Feb 2008)

TCBF said:
			
		

> I say, bring back the tans.  Best looking uniform yet.  Declare it "Optional Summer".
> 
> ;D



You're just teasing me, but I like your idea. You boys could wear 'em -- and I could avoid wearing them (but just look)!! Excellent idea!!  >


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## IntlBr (16 Feb 2008)

I know that a board sits to address issues in CFP-265, but how would one go about proposing changes?


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## armyvern (16 Feb 2008)

IntlBr said:
			
		

> I know that a board sits to address issues in CFP-265, but how would one go about proposing changes?



Write it up (email works -- even I've pulled that one off) through your CSM to the RSM ... which goes to the Base RSM ... and onwards to the Area RSM ... upwards to the appropriate Dress Committee such as the Army Dress Committee who will toss it onto their agenda eventually and then discuss/decide/forward for approval/authorization to come into effect.

You only need to worry about the first step.


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## Dirty Patricia (16 Feb 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Lime green shirts?... are you talking about the Lagoon green shirts we used to wear with the work dress?
> The current batch of shirts are a far cry from "lime" in colour... you sure you aren't colour blind?  >



I'll agree maybe not quite lime.  I'm not colour blind, but I can recognize an ugly light shade of green that looks completely un-Army.  I'm all for a complete redesign with a medium weight dark khaki.  Why did the army and navy get back traditional colours and we're stuck with the CF rifle green?


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## Blackadder1916 (16 Feb 2008)

TCBF said:
			
		

> - The boys who didn't look good in them were pear-shaped, and since *pear-shaped people ran our army in 98*, they got rid of the uniforms that accentuated their shame.





			
				TCBF said:
			
		

> ... Right after the ice storm, the *CLS* chopped . . . the Tan DEUs (which we gifted to Jamaica).



If I remember correctly no one could accuse LGen L***** of being svelte.  On more than one occasion he described himself (while in the tans) as looking like a 10 pound bag of **** tied in the middle.  I recall him making such a comment while testifying to SCONDVA or a similar parliamentary committee.  He was explaining why the Army got rid of that uniform.


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## Teddy Ruxpin (16 Feb 2008)

Dirty Patricia said:
			
		

> I'll agree maybe not quite lime.  I'm not colour blind, but I can recognize an ugly light shade of green that looks completely un-Army.  I'm all for a complete redesign with a medium weight dark khaki.  Why did the army and navy get back traditional colours and we're stuck with the CF rifle green?



+10:  precisely.  That was exactly my point on the other thread (see link on my previous post in this thread).  Somehow, the Army got lazy and "sucked up" the CF green, while the Navy and Air Force look, well, like Navy and Air Force.

As for the tans, good riddance.  We don't need two colours of uniform.  A medium weight single khaki uniform (with appropriate for winter accouterments) would work just fine.  Compared with some of the other crap we spend money on, new Army uniforms would be a drop in the bucket.


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## Dirty Patricia (16 Feb 2008)

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> +10:  precisely.  That was exactly my point on the other thread (see link on my previous post in this thread).  Somehow, the Army got lazy and "sucked up" the CF green, while the Navy and Air Force look, well, like Navy and Air Force.
> 
> As for the tans, good riddance.  We don't need two colours of uniform.  A medium weight single khaki uniform (with appropriate for winter accouterments) would work just fine.  Compared with some of the other crap we spend money on, new Army uniforms would be a drop in the bucket.



Precisely.  Lets make this happen.  How?


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## TCBF (16 Feb 2008)

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> ...  A medium weight single khaki uniform (with appropriate for winter accouterments) would work just fine. ...



- My nostalgia for the tans appears to be a no-sell.  Also, CF "Rifle Green" always looked a bit "SS" to the Olde Guard.
okay: The old RCAF summer tan might be a good colour to look at in a new medium weight tunic.


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## PMedMoe (17 Feb 2008)

Actually, I did like the tans.  The cut of the uniform fit better.  Just had to remember not to wear patterned (or dark) underwear.  As Vern said, they could be quite see-through.   
The green DEUs are not the same colour as the old tri-service uniform.  I had the luck to serve at a Mess dinner while on PAT in Borden many moons ago.  We wore our DEUs with the (old) green server's coats and there was a huge difference in colour.  Think almost turquoise green.... :-X


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## Dirty Patricia (17 Feb 2008)

Australian,  New Zealand, British............  Lets go back to khaki.  The British are even developing a new replacement to eliminate different uniforms for Officers and NCOs .  At any rate they look more Army and more traditional.


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## George Wallace (17 Feb 2008)

Perhaps, but many British Army units have distinct uniforms, as displayed in your photos.  Some British units have actually gone to the Rifle Green and produced a uniform very similar to our CFs and DEUs.


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## DannyD (17 Feb 2008)

I agree, tan or khaki, it looks better than rifle green. Add bloused trousers, and we're good to go.


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## PMedMoe (17 Feb 2008)

Please don't make me wear green pants and a khaki jacket like the guy in the last picture!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			







			
				DannyD said:
			
		

> Add bloused trousers, and we're good to go.



Are you proposing the return of Garrison boots?  Or do we have to start spit shining combat boots?  
Personally, I disagree with bloused trousers in the dress uniform.


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## Dirty Patricia (17 Feb 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Perhaps, but many British Army units have distinct uniforms, as displayed in your photos.  Some British units have actually gone to the Rifle Green and produced a uniform very similar to our CFs and DEUs.



All British No. 2 Dress (equivalent to our CFs) are Khaki.  The Rifles do have a rifle green No 1 Dress, reflecting their traditional colours.  True many British regiments add their own traditions, from the rifle green pants of the Royal Irish Regiment, to crimson for the Kings Royal Hussars, to kilts, etc.  The basis for every No 2 dress uniform is khaki.


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## Dirty Patricia (17 Feb 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Please don't make me wear green pants and a khaki jacket like the guy in the last picture!!



You think those are bad, check out these pants.........


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## Dirty Patricia (17 Feb 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Personally, I disagree with bloused trousers in the dress uniform.



I agree as well.  It was an Airborne tradition and we should leave at that.


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## PMedMoe (17 Feb 2008)

Dirty Patricia said:
			
		

> You think those are bad, check out these pants.........


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## Teddy Ruxpin (17 Feb 2008)

I think we're on to something. We need a "Canadianized" khaki DEU.  That means no differences between officers' and NCMs' uniforms and a means of reflecting officers' ranks (NCMs aren't an issue) that reflects both the CF system (as much as I don't like it) and an element of tradition.  Toned down gold stripes, perhaps, or (as I suggested on the other thread), a version of the First World War system that, oddly, included stripes much like we wear now.  I like Sam Brownes too, perhaps for all ranks.

An aside:  the Brit photo with the gents wearing red pants is of the King's Royal Hussars (KRH).  They wear "cherry" trousers with all orders of dress except combats in recognition of a predecessor, the 11th Hussars "The Cherrypickers" (the nickname stemming from an action in an orchard during the Napoleonic Wars).  See, there's a reason for everything...   In Canada, we have very few such DEU-related traditions, hats of various types aside.

As for bloused trousers, Dirty Patricia has already hit on it:  very Airborne.


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## Dirty Patricia (17 Feb 2008)

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> We need a "Canadianized" khaki DEU.



I think that is the key to pushing it.  We just want a traditional uniform that reflects our Canadain heritage from WW1, WW2 and Korea.  Now how do we make it happen?  If there is still talk of a medium weight Army uniform to replace the heavy weight one, that would be a good opportunity to make design and colour changes.


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## RangerRay (17 Feb 2008)

I'll add my voice for a "Canadianised" British-style dark khaki army DEU.  Very fitting for our heritage, and very classy to boot!

The British, Australian, and New Zealand uniforms are similar, yet distinct.  We share much of our military heritage with these countries.


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## BDTyre (18 Feb 2008)

I find the dark khaki tends to look much better with a kilt too, especially a kilt of a darker pattern - just look at the pictures in the post that started this whole thread.

But keep the coatee in its current color - much nicer looking than a cut-away DEU.

(modified to correct some early-morning spelling errors  ;D)


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## Teddy Ruxpin (18 Feb 2008)

Dirty Patricia said:
			
		

> I think that is the key to pushing it.  We just want a traditional uniform that reflects our Canadain heritage from WW1, WW2 and Korea.  Now how do we make it happen?  If there is still talk of a medium weight Army uniform to replace the heavy weight one, that would be a good opportunity to make design and colour changes.



Yeah, if it wasn't CF enough (ie: too "old-Army"), the bureaucracy would shoot any initiative down in a heartbeat.  It has to reflect heritage and the new reality - much as the Air Force did with their blue DEU.

Unfortunately, staffing a new uniform is a Byzantine maze of bureaucrats and approvals, all leading to a project.  While the Army controls bits and pieces of dress, the big purple machine is the approving authority.  Then, there'd be whinging about the design, followed by an SOR, a project and the involvement of PWGSC... *sigh*

The only possible end run would be to convince someone very high up - the CDS - that it was worthwhile.  He's listened to soldier's suggestions before...


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## XMP (19 Feb 2008)

From some of my research into the history of CF Greens, a minor but telling factor in selecting the colour was an effort on the part of the government to get away from a traditional "British Colonial" look. Peacekeeping   was the buzzword of the day and the government wanted Canadians to have a distinctive uniform that bore little resemblance to those worn by "colonial powers" such as England. This may even have been a factor in the adoption of the maple leaf above the rank  chevrons. (In the 1967 prototypes the chevrons didn't have maple leaves, these appeared and disappeared on the insignia of rank from Pay level 4 Ptes  to Sgt. up until the rank insignia was finally standardised about 1975.)   
A major consideration of course was the reduced costs in having the Forces dressed in identical uniforms. All that went out the window of course with the adoption of DEUs...
Reading through the above posts there seems to be a general consensus for a return to some form of the traditional khaki service dress for the Army. A jacket similar in cut to the current Army DEU but in khaki,  for all ranks I think might be a workable proposal. Rank insignia for WOs and NCOs (giving away my age there) could be in dull gold. For Officers, maybe even a return to the old style "pips and crowns"? But instead of the British type rank pips based on the Order Of The Bath, the pips could be of the Order Of Canada. The high priced help would keep the crossed sword and baton and maple leaves...


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## ModlrMike (19 Feb 2008)

XMP said:
			
		

> Reading through the above posts there seems to be a general consensus for a return to some form of the traditional khaki service dress for the Army. A jacket similar in cut to the current Army DEU but in khaki,  for all ranks I think might be a workable proposal. Rank insignia for WOs and NCOs (giving away my age there) could be in dull gold. For Officers, maybe even a return to the old style "pips and crowns"? But instead of the British type rank pips based on the Order Of The Bath, the pips could be of the Order Of Canada. The high priced help would keep the crossed sword and baton and maple leaves...



While I agree that a khaki uniform would be the right way to go, I think that keeping the ranks as they are is important. Our current rank badges should be the part that differentiates us from our commonwealth partners with similar uniforms. In addition, it will reduce any sense of confusion between the three "services", particularly for the purple trades who will continue to work in a "tri-service" environment.


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## RangerRay (19 Feb 2008)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> While I agree that a khaki uniform would be the right way to go, I think that keeping the ranks as they are is important. Our current rank badges should be the part that differentiates us from our commonwealth partners with similar uniforms. In addition, it will reduce any sense of confusion between the three "services", particularly for the purple trades who will continue to work in a "tri-service" environment.



As much as I would like to see a return of the traditional ranking structures of all three services, I don't think that's a realistic option at this point.  A return to a dark khaki service uniform would be a huge improvement over the "green hornet" bus driver outfit.


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## ModlrMike (19 Feb 2008)

RangerRay said:
			
		

> As much as I would like to see a return of the traditional ranking structures of all three services, I don't think that's a realistic option at this point.



That's not what I was proposing... just the opposite. I think we should keep the ranks as they are.


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## XMP (19 Feb 2008)

The current rank insignia for Officers is very similar to the patterns worn by the old Navy and Air Force. The only real difference is in the General/Flag Officer patterns. The Navy is even wearing the traditional curl on the Mess Dress uniforms. I tend to agree however, that the pip and crown proposal for the Army likely wouldn't fly (no pun intended.)


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## time expired (19 Feb 2008)

Just got through watching Band of Brothers for about the 5 time
and could not help thinking how good the US Army version of
battledress looked ,minus that funny looking hat.It was designed 
strictly as a dress uniform,unlike our battledress which was actually
worn in the field,.I always regretted the fact that we and most
western armies went to the business suit with brass buttons,when
with a little bit of imagination a battledress style uniform could
have been designed and would have been distinctly Canadian.
The Americans referred to the this as the Eisenhower jacket
I believe.
A problem would have been that fat guys looked particularly
fat in battledress.
                          Regards


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## time expired (19 Feb 2008)

To add to the above, about bloused pant with dress uniforms,
with battledress we always wore puttees,only office pogues
were excused.Not that I am anyway suggesting a return
to puttees,but IMHO bloused pants belong to a SOLDIERS
uniform.
While I am on the subject,I was fortunate enough to attend 
the 60th. Anniversary parade in the Normandy and being 
somewhat unimpressed by the Canadian contribution a
rainbow formation of tall ones,short ones,dark blue,light
blue, sand coloured ones,females and quite a few fat ones,
stuck between the above mentioned Hussars,and a very
sharp Norwegian drill team in a traditional dress uniform.
I am afraid we looked decidedly 2nd. class in comparison.
                             Regards


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## geo (19 Feb 2008)

Puttees!  Yargh!!!   No effing way!  Wore those for a couple of months before being told to take em off and cut away the button tabs we had on the bottom of your BD trousers.  Never ever again!

WRT being amongst Tall ones, short ones, thin ones and fat ones.... have seen troops from other countries - we do not have exclusivity in the round ones.


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## time expired (19 Feb 2008)

GEO as I said I was not suggesting a return to puttees,and one
always cut off those tabs,but after a couple of years practice 
putting on your puttees could be done in about a minute and
a half and they would stay put all day.Maybe true that other 
armies have this problem however the didn't show up at an
international parade, seen by millions,with them.
                                     Regards


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## geo (19 Feb 2008)

been to a number of parades where those nations soldiers have been on parade & their cups runeth over.....


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## Teddy Ruxpin (19 Feb 2008)

XMP said:
			
		

> The current rank insignia for Officers is very similar to the patterns worn by the old Navy and Air Force. The only real difference is in the General/Flag Officer patterns. The Navy is even wearing the traditional curl on the Mess Dress uniforms. I tend to agree however, that the pip and crown proposal for the Army likely wouldn't fly (no pun intended.)



If this idea has any hope of succeeding, it needs to be disconnected from any other ideas regarding changes to the rank system, etc..  I have enormous sympathy for wearing stars and crowns.  It follows a rank system that exists in a huge array of armies - not all of them of British - and is almost univerally recognized as a result.  A Capt carries three "stars" in dozens of militaries.

However, introducing a proposal for a new/old rank system is a non-starter.  The Navy was not permitted to wear the curl on DEU as it was deemed to be too "British" and not "CF" enough.  In the current structual environment, it would be impossible for the Army to have a different rank system than the other two "elements" of the CF and the move would be bitterly opposed by nationalists within DND.

Much better to adapt the current system to khakis.  Perhaps the stripes, instead of being bright, cheap gold, could be a different shade of khaki - much like those worn in the First World War.

Again, if any move to revise DEU has any hope of succeeding, it has to take the path of least resistance:  no "new" uniform, no differences between ranks, no amendments to the "CF-ness" of it all, and distinctly Canadian.  Ergo:  a khaki DEU in a proper fabric, with slightly revised officer and NCM rank identifiers in khaki as well.


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## geo (19 Feb 2008)

Hmmm... do you think that Highland and Guards units will then "capo" their rank badges the way they used to with Battledress n' Bush uniforms.


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## Dirty Patricia (19 Feb 2008)

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> Again, if any move to revise DEU has any hope of succeeding, it has to take the path of least resistance:  no "new" uniform, no differences between ranks, no amendments to the "CF-ness" of it all, and distinctly Canadian.  Ergo:  a khaki DEU in a proper fabric, with slightly revised officer and NCM rank identifiers in khaki as well.



I believe as well that this would have the best chance, if any, of going forward.  Let start the push.


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## Drummy (19 Feb 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Hmmm... do you think that Highland and Guards units will then "capo" their rank badges the way they used to with Battledress n' Bush uniforms.



Hi Geo, Which Guards units would that be?  Drummy


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## geo (19 Feb 2008)

IIRC, pert much all Guard units used to the Capo thing to their rank badges.... 
made em look real white on the olive background.... 

Notwhistanding the gren capo on the belts.


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## Kat Stevens (19 Feb 2008)

Back to Branch/Corps trousers and berets, too?  Be nice to see my lads in a dark blue beanie.


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## Infanteer (20 Feb 2008)

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> I think we're on to something. We need a "Canadianized" khaki DEU.  That means no differences between officers' and NCMs' uniforms and a means of reflecting officers' ranks (NCMs aren't an issue) that reflects both the CF system (as much as I don't like it) and an element of tradition.  Toned down gold stripes, perhaps, or (as I suggested on the other thread), a version of the First World War system that, oddly, included stripes much like we wear now.  I like Sam Brownes too, perhaps for all ranks.



Agreed.

Using the current model, the new Service Dress would be as follows:

No 3.    Ceremonial:  Khaki service dress (tunic) with medals, badges regimental accrouments, belts, sashes, Sam Browne belts (for officers?), drill canes/pace sticks, etc.

No 3a.  Duty:  Khaki service dress (tunic) with ribbons.

No 3b.  Sweater:  Optional Khaki sweater for garrison wear.

No 3c.  Long Sleeve Shirt

No 3d.  Short Sleeve Shirt


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## Drummy (20 Feb 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> IIRC, pert much all Guard units used to the Capo thing to their rank badges....
> made em look real white on the olive background....
> 
> Notwhistanding the gren capo on the belts.



Having spent 12 years in The Canadian Guards, and at times working with both The GGFG and CGG, I never once saw anyone Capoing(is that a word?)  their rank badges Also spent some time with The Coldstream Guards and The Grenadier Guards in GB, and never saw it there.

Drummy


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## geo (20 Feb 2008)

Well, it's been a long time.... if not the guards, mighta been restricted to the Highland laddies - that I do remember carrying on is such a silly manner.


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## Old Sweat (20 Feb 2008)

As I recall, the only regiment/corps anal enough to whiten rank badges, trades badges etc was mine - the artillery. We used to use White It and a toothpick as the drill was to whiten each individual herring bone on rank bades as opposed to the barn painting approach. Mind you, we used to whiten our issue running shoes as well.


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## geo (20 Feb 2008)

OS... sounds like a make work program for troops with a lot of time on their hands.

Creative but...............


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## Nfld Sapper (20 Feb 2008)

Sounds like The RCR and rock painting  ;D or RETS picking out coloured rocks from the walkways at Tent City (when some one finally decides to paint the wooden curbs by the tents)


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## Old Sweat (20 Feb 2008)

The difference is that we whittened hooks and badges after duty hours as part of 'scabbing our kit' for parade and inspection in the morning.


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## geo (20 Feb 2008)

Idle hands will do the devil's work......


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## Drummy (20 Feb 2008)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> The difference is that we whittened hooks and badges after duty hours as part of 'scabbing our kit' for parade and inspection in the morning.



And wasn't it nice when it rained the next morning.

Drummy


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## XMP (20 Feb 2008)

> As I recall, the only regiment/corps anal enough to whiten rank badges, trades badges etc was mine - the artillery. We used to use White It and a toothpick as the drill was to whiten each individual herring bone on rank bades as opposed to the barn painting approach. Mind you, we used to whiten our issue running shoes as well.



Whitened badges were also an affectation of the Canadian Provost Corps. 

Back to the thread subject... 
I think that although a return to a form of khaki DEU is a good idea rather than spending a considerable amount of money on DEU development, trials and purchases, perhaps those resources would be better spent on producing a Tac Vest or MOLLE clone that is suitable for operational needs. Money is availible right now, more than ever before, but it won't last forever.  Although I am now outside the military, from what I have read on this site, plus reading user reports and trials evaluations, quantity availible as well as quality of some of the operational gear leaves much to be desired.  
But I guess things haven't changed much in 2000 years since a Roman Legionare submitted a UCR on his paenula (cloak) for having a hood that was too small. ;D


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## Teddy Ruxpin (20 Feb 2008)

XMP said:
			
		

> Whitened badges were also an affectation of the Canadian Provost Corps.
> 
> Back to the thread subject...
> I think that although a return to a form of khaki DEU is a good idea rather than spending a considerable amount of money on DEU development, trials and purchases, perhaps those resources would be better spent on producing a Tac Vest or MOLLE clone that is suitable for operational needs. Money is availible right now, more than ever before, but it won't last forever.  Although I am now outside the military, from what I have read on this site, plus reading user reports and trials evaluations, quantity availible as well as quality of some of the operational gear leaves much to be desired.
> But I guess things haven't changed much in 2000 years since a Roman Legionare submitted a UCR on his paenula (cloak) for having a hood that was too small. ;D



Without getting into it, operational equipment money comes from a different pile...  DEU "development" (which should be practically zero in this case) shouldn't impact on operational equipment purchases.


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## Matt_Fisher (20 Feb 2008)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Agreed.
> 
> Using the current model, the new Service Dress would be as follows:
> 
> ...



Wouldn't it be more appropriate to name this as No. 2 for Service Dress?  No. 1 should be Blue/Patrol dress (authorized, but not maintained at public expense).

Regarding No 3b.  In addition to the sweater, a modernized battledress jacket might be sharp, and easier to take on/off depending on the differences in outside/inside temperatures.  The Australians have a version as shown below.


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## Infanteer (20 Feb 2008)

Matt, I was just using the existing system - No 2 is Mess Dress.

As for the battledress jacket, is it any different than a tunic?  It just looks like a pretty slick CANEX jacket.  A little heavier and maybe it could get rid of the CADPAT Jackets with DEU's we see in Ottawa.


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## Edward Campbell (20 Feb 2008)

Back around 1984/85 I was on the edge of the _”Coates* of many colours”_ project. If my memory is correct the Army asked to stay green – in part citing our long history of light infantry regiments, which we had in huge number until after the First World War. I think some generals wanted to look more like their US counterparts while others simply didn’t want change for the sake of change.

It seems to me that if we are going to have any ceremonial uniforms – *and I think we should* – then they should be provided to all ranks at public expense. I do not want to return to the days of mixed officer/senior NCO vs. junior ranks orders of dress. If any one person needs a ceremonial uniform then we you should all have them – issued and properly tailored/fitted after a members has completed initial trade/speciality/classification training.  

Maybe we could consider:

•	No 1/Full dress – scarlet (for a very few regiments) or dark green patrol dress uniforms with sundry, but not too many, _gee-gaws_;

•	No 2/Undress – scarlet or dark green patrol dress – without _gee-gaws_;

•	No 3/Service Dress – dark green jacket and tie, with a few accoutrements;

•	No 4/Garrison dress – a series of uniforms including dark green trousers with open neck shirts or sweaters, cargo pants with golf-shirts/t-shirts or sweaters, etc, etc, etc; and

•	No 5/Work dress – coveralls, etc.

Mess dress would be required for officers and senior NCOs and optional for junior ranks, at their own expense, and combat uniforms would be restricted to training/operational situations.

Now, while I agree with those who like the USMC model, my personal preference would be to merge No 2 and No 3: we would have a patrol dress jacket and plain trousers as our “business suit” uniform. Notwithstanding the views of a few people whose military experience is confined, largely, to the grounds of the Royal Military College, a properly fitted patrol dress jacket is neither uncomfortable (no more so, at least than a collared shirt and tie) nor out of the ordinary.


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* Named after then MND Bob Coates who spearheaded the DEU project, over the CDS’ objections. Coates later came a cropper over a late-night visit to a cheap strip-bar in Lahr.


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## Matt_Fisher (20 Feb 2008)

I have never seen the Australian jacket in person.  Perhaps Wes could comment.  If we made it out of a waterproof/breathable wash & wear fabric, it could have great utility and look good as well.  You'd have to design some way of being able to place ribbons and nametags without puncturing the fabric and creating leakholes though.


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## marshall sl (20 Feb 2008)

We could attache them with velcro.


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## TCBF (20 Feb 2008)

- Having worn Battledress and CF Tunic styles, I prefer the CF Tunic style, thanks. 

- I don't want to return to an army which is rich in office uniforms but field poor.  I now think that if any new uniform is in addition to the 'Rifle Green' DEU, rather than replacing it, then nix it.
- Nix the work dress, as well. 

- I recall that a lot of the drive towards an 'independent' colour was political: Gamel Abdel Nasser saw Canadians rolling off the carrier looking just like Brits - kilts and all.  Endex.  Also, the CF Greens were bought at the tail end of a lot of WW2 careers, and those guys knew every time a picture of Canadians fighting was shown to Americans, they called us 'British'.  Hence: our own look.


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## Old Sweat (20 Feb 2008)

The first green uniform was trotted circa 1966-1967. It was designed to replace the three single service uniforms and army lore has it that rifle green was selected because (a) it was not used by any of the three services and (b) the officer running the uniform section in D Ceremonial was a member of the Queen's Own Rifles of Canada. Certainly the first picture of the new uniform I saw was of an officer in that regiment.

The original concept was a single uniform with a single cap badge and no distinctive identifying badges. The choice between a single and branch/regimental badges was still being debated in 1972. Dextraze finally quashed the single badge plan when he was CDS.


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## ModlrMike (20 Feb 2008)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Dextraze finally quashed the single badge plan when he was CDS.



I'm glad we never followed through with that misbegotten idea.


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## TCBF (20 Feb 2008)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I'm glad we never followed through with that misbegotten idea.



- Everyone just loved the 'Cornflake".


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## Matt_Fisher (20 Feb 2008)

TCBF said:
			
		

> - Having worn Battledress and CF Tunic styles, I prefer the CF Tunic style, thanks.
> 
> - I don't want to return to an army which is rich in office uniforms but field poor.  I now think that if any new uniform is in addition to the 'Rifle Green' DEU, rather than replacing it, then nix it.



I think that the consensus is going towards dropping the current winterweight CF/Rifle Green DEU in favour of a more historically oriented khaki one, with the same style jacket for both officers and NCMs.  Given that eventually, DSSPM is going to fund and field a midweight replacement to the current heavyweight/winter DEU, why not go with khaki?



			
				TCBF said:
			
		

> - Nix the work dress, as well.



There will still be occasions that combats are too casual and full DEU with tunic may be impractical, i.e. NDHQ, recruiting centers, hq, etc.  Something that is a wash & wear version of the DEU trousers with either a sweater, or battledress inspired jacket may be a better alternative.  Also, with the likelihood that eventually combats will be replaced by the 'Future Combat Uniform' program, which will most likely be for operational use only, due to the high cost of materials used (performance fire retardant fabrics, etc.) a 'garrison' type uniform which provides more durability and a better appearance than the current combats may be something to consider.



			
				TCBF said:
			
		

> - I recall that a lot of the drive towards an 'independent' colour was political: Gamel Abdel Nasser saw Canadians rolling off the carrier looking just like Brits - kilts and all.  Endex.  Also, the CF Greens were bought at the tail end of a lot of WW2 careers, and those guys knew every time a picture of Canadians fighting was shown to Americans, they called us 'British'.  Hence: our own look.



I can see the point there, when we used battledress as both service and field uniform, but with the adoption of OD and then CADPAT combat uniforms, with national flag patches, I think that the argument that we may be mistaken in the field for other armies is somewhat moot when it comes to national identification.


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## geo (20 Feb 2008)

WRT a work dress.... something like the old Bush uniform might be an alternative.
Possibly use a fabric like the old work dress trousers for the wear & tear aspect & a windbreaker kind of jacket... but I'd stick with the berret...


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## Teddy Ruxpin (20 Feb 2008)

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> I think that the consensus is going towards dropping the current winterweight CF/Rifle Green DEU in favour of a more historically oriented khaki one, with the same style jacket for both officers and NCMs.  Given that eventually, DSSPM is going to fund and field a midweight replacement to the current heavyweight/winter DEU, why not go with khaki?
> 
> There will still be occasions that combats are too casual and full DEU with tunic may be impractical, i.e. NDHQ, recruiting centers, hq, etc.  Something that is a wash & wear version of the DEU trousers with either a sweater, or battledress inspired jacket may be a better alternative.  Also, with the likelihood that eventually combats will be replaced by the 'Future Combat Uniform' program, which will most likely be for operational use only, due to the high cost of materials used (performance fire retardant fabrics, etc.) a 'garrison' type uniform which provides more durability and a better appearance than the current combats may be something to consider.
> 
> I can see the point there, when we used battledress as both service and field uniform, but with the adoption of OD and then CADPAT combat uniforms, with national flag patches, I think that the argument that we may be mistaken in the field for other armies is somewhat moot when it comes to national identification.



+1  We don't want to over complicate this.  The idea is to replace rifle green with khaki, with some small modifications to fabric and "matching" rank identifiers, not revise the entire dress system.  Shoes, hats and the like would remain the same. Infanteer has posted the way ahead I was thinking of.  There should be no need for a separate intermediate uniform when some extra items for DEU would suffice.  Indeed work/garrison dress was eliminated because of complaints from soldiers, as were tans (see, they do listen).  We need a DEU that is flexible enough to function in a fairly wide variety of work environments.  Combats should suffice for field/gettin' dirty work.  I also suspect that there would be little appetite for public purchase of ceremonials _en masse_; they are hugely expensive and of limited utility day to day, as much as I love scarlet.

I also think that we should get past the idea of an "independent" colour.  As proposed, a khaki DEU would be immediately identifiable as Canadian, even at a distance.  

My 2 cents.


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## Dirty Patricia (20 Feb 2008)

Teddy, good ideas and definitely not too drastic to get immediately shot down.  As said before that will be the key.  If the idea can be tied in with the need for an intermediate weight uniform as opposed to the current winter weight, it might get rolling.


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## IntlBr (20 Feb 2008)

So who here wants to staff this up, and who can accidentally "drop" this on the CDS' desk?  ;D


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## Nordman (20 Feb 2008)

I think a khaki uniform sounds interesting as long as its not the really light tan....... i do think the the army's DEU is the lesser of all three services right now......

if anyone is interesting they might want to check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._A...oesnt quite warrant full ceremonial uniforms


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## Infanteer (20 Feb 2008)

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> +1  We don't want to over complicate this.  The idea is to replace rifle green with khaki, with some small modifications to fabric and "matching" rank identifiers, not revise the entire dress system.  Shoes, hats and the like would remain the same. Infanteer has posted the way ahead I was thinking of.  There should be no need for a separate intermediate uniform when some extra items for DEU would suffice.  Indeed work/garrison dress was eliminated because of complaints from soldiers, as were tans (see, they do listen).  We need a DEU that is flexible enough to function in a fairly wide variety of work environments.  Combats should suffice for field/gettin' dirty work.  I also suspect that there would be little appetite for public purchase of ceremonials _en masse_; they are hugely expensive and of limited utility day to day, as much as I love scarlet.
> 
> I also think that we should get past the idea of an "independent" colour.  As proposed, a khaki DEU would be immediately identifiable as Canadian, even at a distance.
> 
> My 2 cents.





			
				Dirty Patricia said:
			
		

> Teddy, good ideas and definitely not too drastic to get immediately shot down.  As said before that will be the key.  If the idea can be tied in with the need for an intermediate weight uniform as opposed to the current winter weight, it might get rolling.



Geez!  I think this may be an Army.ca first - we nail something down in 7 pages!  I'm going to get my crayons and start drawing out a new design to post on the DIN.

All kidding aside, I think everything presented sounds pretty logical and could be pushed as an "Army Transformation" initiative.  New Army, New Look (well, back to an Older Look in reality)....


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## Matt_Fisher (20 Feb 2008)

Nice thing about changes to Marine Corps uniforms in the past few years was that MarCorSysCom/Marine Corps Uniform Board would post an online survey soliciting feedback from Marines about proposed changes.  DSSPM should do something similar for the DEU, asking what members think.  Perhaps we're way off base here thinking that khaki is the way to go?  Only way to find out is to do a survey open to all members of the Land Force Command.


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## RangerRay (20 Feb 2008)

Corps of Guides said:
			
		

> So who here wants to staff this up, and who can accidentally "drop" this on the CDS' desk?  ;D



I volunteer!

Would General Rick listen to the opinion of a former reservist corporal who hasn't drilled in over 10 years?  ;D


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## Dirty Patricia (21 Feb 2008)

The next time I see the General, I'm definitely going to bring it up.  He's good that way.


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## benny88 (21 Feb 2008)

Hell, let's just kick it right up top to HRH.


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## davidk (21 Feb 2008)

HRH who? If you're referring to the Queen, she's HM...


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## benny88 (21 Feb 2008)

After some Royal Research....you're right. Due to your knowledge, it looks like you've volunteered krystal! ;D Good luck


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## davidk (21 Feb 2008)

Just because I talk the talk doesn't mean I walk the walk...


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## Teddy Ruxpin (21 Feb 2008)

Dirty Patricia said:
			
		

> The next time I see the General, I'm definitely going to bring it up.  He's good that way.



I think that's definitely the way ahead.  He listens to BTDT guys and this almost has to be put forward as an idea that has the support of a pretty wide constituency, not just a bunch of harumphing staff officers (of which I am one now).


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## geo (21 Feb 2008)

Nordman said:
			
		

> I think a khaki uniform sounds interesting as long as its not the really light tan....... i do think the the army's DEU is the lesser of all three services right now......



The problem with the Tans was that they were more of a "light sand" colour... not too far off from the old "pinks" officers used to wear in the summer.  Then again, Pinks and TWs were made out of 100% cotton and would wrinkle at the slightest glance... Ugh!  

An OD uniform cut to the DEU pattern would suit pert much all occasions.

Officers could be coaxed into wearing Sam Brown belts on dressier days... 
ODs lends itself well to White belts & gloves for ceremonial occasions......  This could be good


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## Nordman (21 Feb 2008)

sorry...... what exactly do you mean by OD uniform?


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## Old Sweat (21 Feb 2008)

OD - Olive Drab


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## Bruce Monkhouse (21 Feb 2008)

Dirty Patricia said:
			
		

> I agree as well.  It was an Airborne tradition and we should leave at that.





			
				Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> As for bloused trousers, Dirty Patricia has already hit on it:  very Airborne.



A small correction for those interested, _a very SSF tradition_. I wore my uniform that way from 78 until getting posted out in 86 and I never put on a maroon beret.


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## Dirty Patricia (21 Feb 2008)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> _a very SSF tradition_
> 
> The Airborne was the backbone of the SSF.  Bloused oxblood boots for Airborne troopers predates the SSF in the Canadian Army.


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## Dirty Patricia (21 Feb 2008)

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> I think that's definitely the way ahead.  He listens to BTDT guys and this almost has to be put forward as an idea that has the support of a pretty wide constituency, not just a bunch of harumphing staff officers (of which I am one now).



Support from said staff officers will help though.


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## IntlBr (4 Mar 2008)

Before this thread dies, I wanted to ask if there was a way to re-instate the traditional rank system for the Army Mess Dress.  If this is allowed for the Navy (with the executive curl) in Mess Dress, should the Army not be allowed to retain their traditional pip system for the officers?  I know obsolete patterns of Mess Dress may be worn by people who have had them when they were authorized - but I'd wager there are damn few people in the system entitled to wear rank pips.

Thoughts on this?  Again, any way to bring this up efficiently?


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## IntlBr (4 Mar 2008)

My Member of Parliament is (the late Minister of National Defence) Gordon O'Connor.  Would I be remiss in calling him up, and or writing his office a brief letter?


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## Command-Sense-Act 105 (4 Mar 2008)

Any Canadian citizen has the right to address any correspondence they so wish to their Member of Parliament, the Prime Minister or any Minister at any time, on any subject of their concern, without fear of retribution or repercussion.  One of the great things about living in Canada.

Would it serve much purpose on this subject?  Unlikely, but you could give it your best shot anyhow...


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## geo (4 Mar 2008)

Corp of guides... 
there are many Reserve units (all corps) who have asked for and obtained permission to retain the old "pip & Crown" rank badges on their mess dress.  They also wear same said rank badges on their patrol blues...

Ask for permission and explain why you want / need to use em and you might obtain the nod you appear to want.


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## Rifleman62 (4 Mar 2008)

It would be interesting to go back to the Star (Pip) and Crown badges of rank on Mess Kit. In the olden days wearing pips was often a method of obtaining a free refreshments by the subbies on the unfortunate new junior officer who had his Stars on the epaulets sideways or upside down! Traditionally, Rifle Regiment officers do not wear badges of rank on Mess Kit. The idea is everyone in the Regiment knows their brother officers (and who are senior officers) My unit does wear badges of rank though - miniatures, gun metal - very difficult to see the acorns in dim light!


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## Teddy Ruxpin (4 Mar 2008)

As much as I like the old system and as much as I acknowledge that it is almost universally recognized as the "standard" international Army system, this isn't going to fly for a variety of reasons.

Reserve units wear the old system simply because they've been grandfathered.  As far as I know, no Regular Force unit or corps has a similar arrangement.  While mess dress is indeed privately purchased, control of the patterns (which is the key here) is invested within the CF.  Thus Armour Corps mess kit has one standard and that standard is held nationally.  Given the "CF" bias of those in Ottawa, there is _no way_ that a unit not already authorized to wear pips and crowns is going to be permitted to do so.  IMHO, we were lucky to get away with a return to scarlets.

Pips and Crowns are viewed as "British", with all the baggage that that carries for some.  Much as with Service Dress, the only path to success involves ensuring that the "CFness" of uniforms is reflected while maintaining a modicum of tradition.


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## Pencil Tech (12 Mar 2008)

I thought that was a good idea about officers' rank identifiers being a different shade of khaki (if they are worn on the cuffs of the tunic) but for the army, it just seems to me that they should be on the shoulder straps. How about officers' bars on a metal badge (like our NCM collar rank badges) that would be worn on the shoulder strap of the khaki DEU?


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## North Star (9 Apr 2008)

Lol...stumbled onto this threat while writing OPME stuff on Unification...how ironic.

As mentioned by J. Granatstein in his multiple writings, anti-Americanism is the secular religion of Canadians. I think there is a great deal of merit going back to a British-like Service Dress, as long as it isn't too British and our current uniforms are sold as looking too "American". In my opinion, our uniforms look like darker versions of the old US Army Service Dress, minus the weird bling. Personally, I hate the dark green DEUs after many a parade in the summer under a hot sun. The tan DEUs, while an awesome retro-disco uniform, at least mitigated the effects a little bit!

I don't see what's wrong with a khaki version of our current DEU cut. Rank insignia colours could remain identical to those in use now. The colour of the backing would be the only change. Officers would continue to use the cuff system of rank, as it's now identifiably Canadian and harkens back to the cuff embellishments used by the CEF. We should also go back to Sam Browne belts for officers and a heavy belt for NCOs, with infantry NCOs using the sash. Berets would remain the same as they are now. If the colour is right, we may still even get to continue using the Linden Green shirt.

Maybe this can be sold as a reward for the commitment in Afghanistan. Ultimately, it's something that has to be sold to the current government. Given that they've pushed to have the Red Ensign recognized as a symbol of Canada, and that they're waging an image war on that icky "Canada" logo with the stylized Maple Leaf, this is the chance to push the idea.


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