# BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]



## HItorMiss

All

As of now recruits and Officer Cadets *WILL* be allowed to have access to their personal electronics (Cell phone, Laptop, IPod etc etc) for the entire course.

no longer will they be taken for the first 4 weeks of training and then accessed only on weekends after the 4 week in-doc. Now all candidates will have access to them for the entire course.

The Commandant has taken this step as it was seen to reduce the VR rate by 66% during the trial PL's that were run.

On a personal note many of you will cry havoc at this step (myself included) but he is the CO and thus we follow his directives. Do I like it no, do I agree with it *HELL NO* but there it is. And people wonder why I am releasing....  :

Edit: Spelling


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## vonGarvin

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> The Commandant has take this step as it was seen to reduce the VR rate by 66% during the trial PL's that were run.


You are quite right to point out that it's his policy.


However....

Has he considered that maybe those who VR'd because they had no access to iThings for a few weeks are just maybe not exactly the kind of people that are wanted in a military force?


(Just curious)


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## HItorMiss

TV

Feel free to ask, we weren't allowed to question it, same goes with the ND policy....

EDIT: Spelling


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## dangerboy

They are going to be in for a culture shock when they finish BMQ and if they end up on a BMQ(Land) course that I am running.  I confiscate the electronics day one of the course.


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## McG

If a person cannot go four weeks without smartphone, tablet and laptop - how does that person function in operational environments where they may need to be seperated from those things for longer periods?


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## yoman

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> same goes with the ND policy....



Could you clarify this by any chance?


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## MJP

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> All
> 
> As of now recruits and Officer Cadets *WILL* be allowed to have access to their personal electronics (Cell phone, Laptop, IPod etc etc) for the entire course.
> 
> no longer will they be taken for the first 4 weeks of training and then accessed only on weekends after the 4 week in-doc. Now all candidates will have access to them for the entire course.



I see will have access and having time to do so as two different things   I also foresee instructors becoming even more inventive in ensuring troops are busy right up to lights out.  I feel for you BM, having known quite a few folks that have instructed there, you guys are busy as it is.


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## HItorMiss

MJP

Sadly we aren't on the floor until lights out which is 2300hrs. Generally they are given an O Group at the end of training with a list of activities they must accomplish by lights out. Without the Electronics they had little else to do but accomplish the tasks, now well...

I used to come in on my own time to supervise and such being single it was easy for me. Now however I see the married guys going to have to take a hit on this and families will suffer Workday starts at 0500hrs home often times at 1700-2000hrs  now it may well be 0500hrs till 2300hrs and that is simply in my book not OK.

During the trial there was a marked decrease in teamwork and overall standard. But the CO said during the brief he didn't care as long as they met the school standard by grad. Which they essentially do because as long as you pass the tests and don't get counseled out and re-coursed you will pass. Doesn't mean they can function as a team member or have an individual military standard but I digress.

That is the policy and it will stand regardless of what we think or say... Unless someone really high up has a serious issue then maybe it will change but I don't see that happening either.


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## MJP

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> MJP
> 
> Sadly we aren't on the floor until lights out which is 2300hrs. Generally they are given an O Group at the end of training with a list of activities they must accomplish by lights out. Without the Electronics they had little else to do but accomplish the tasks, now well...
> 
> I used to come in on my own time to supervise and such being single it was easy for me. Now however I see the married guys going to have to take a hit on this and families will suffer Workday starts at 0500hrs home often times at 1700-2000hrs  now it may well be 0500hrs till 2300hrs and that is simply in my book not OK.



Ack

We use to only have the marching NCO stay late to ensure troops were on task.  To allow the troops to get work done they didn't stay on the floor but rather did random spot checks during the evening.  At least that way you were only taking the stay late hit once a week or so.  But my experience is dated and not at CFLRS.


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## aesop081

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> The Commandant has taken this step as it was seen to reduce the VR rate by 66% during the trial PL's that were run.



The solution was to recruit different people, not change how we do things. Oh well, orders are orders.

Hopefully they don't come work at my unit. No cell phones or electronic devices allowed.


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## SentryMAn

I can understand this, the young people of today have never lived without so taking away from them goes along with the ridiculous rules that we are seeing in our school systems.  It will be interesting to see these folks and their careers in the next 10-15 years.

Countless other people completed Basic without a cellular phone, Countless others completed it with the use of the pay phones only.  There are a section of youth today that really need to have their eyes opened up.


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## Michael OLeary

SentryMAn said:
			
		

> There are a section of youth today that really need to have their eyes opened up.



No doubt the arrival of pay phones on bases, and then in quarters, and portable radios, record players and tape recorders, and the first cell phones were all equally declaimed as signs of the coming apocalypse for the level of distraction they were guaranteed to create in their respective decades.  Perhaps we should wait and see if the staff document a noticeable effect on the training environement that might convince the CO, or his successor, to change the policy if needed.


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## Robert0288

I like how this instantly went modern electronics = death and destruction of the CF as we know it. :  As people have said, there is immediate kick to the face of CFLRS and the culture shock.  However just because they went through it doesn't mean it was the most beneficial thing out there.   What stops staff from coming in, seeing people on their devices instead of doing unfinished tasks? I'm fairly certain the result will not be pretty. I'm also pretty sure people would be straightened out pretty fast by their course mates if they happen to bugger off and try to watch a movie while there is floor waxing to be done.  Which happened exactly once on my reserve BMQ before the weight of the entire PL fell firmly on the guys face.

Right now I'm doing paper work at NDHQ and I've seen many files crossing my desk about recruits having to VR because of unforeseen family issues.  Now its true they might actually be useless individuals who we don't want and will be 5F'd/5D'd in the near future, but they could also be good troops.  If sending a couple of text messages 5min before lights out happens to help, I don't see the harm in extending the trial.... At least not yet.


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## Craisome

Sweet because I can talk with the family  

but not so sweet because my old work will call


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## aesop081

Robert0288 said:
			
		

> :



You have your years of experience.........i have mine.

Oh, wait......


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## kenmnuggas

To me, this seems like taking a work phone on vacation. What little positive impact it will have on your time there is more than outdone by the distractions. 
But, of course, nobody asked me. 

I'm still planning to leave my laptop at home during BMOQ though - whenever that happens!


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## Precept

It's interesting. They provide multiple pay phones on each of the floors which cadets can access at any time of the night after training hours and before 23:00. So it's not like people are actually cut off from talking to their family. When I went through CFLRS, I was under the mindset "Just give me my phone so I don't have to pay more for calling cards", but I was in no way sour about the fact that I only got it on weekends. I'm also one of those people who can't live without an iGadget on the end of my fingers every day. I can't believe people struggle so much with this, especially when there is a phone on the wall they can use when ever they want to.

I'm actually glad I didn't have my phone during my course, because it forced me to become closer with the recruits around me, and wasn't a distraction every night. Lord knows I'd a been a lot less productive throughout the nights. It also meant I didn't have to put up with my family on a regular basis! 

However, having completed a BMQ(L) with electronics, I don't know what I would have done without them. It was boring enough as it was!


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## aesop081

Stacked said:
			
		

> I don't see this as a bad thing at all. My Platoon had ONE Voluntary Release.. and I do believe it had something to do with us being able to call home easily every night, and deal with the small problems that arose.



In the real world, things are not like that. Its all fine and dandy that you only had one VR, but what will the others do when they can't call or email home for weeks ?

BMQ indoctrinates people into military life. Achieving high graduation rates by avoiding reality only produces substandard graduates. We made that mistake already with PT standards there............


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## Precept

Stacked said:
			
		

> I don't see this as a bad thing at all. My Platoon had ONE Voluntary Release.. and I do believe it had something to do with us being able to call home easily every night, and deal with the small problems that arose.



There are 5 pay phones on the floor. How is it difficult to call home every night? ???


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## PMedMoe

So, when these people are in a place where they can't "call home easily every night, and deal with the small problems that arise" will they release then?

 :


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## SentryMAn

cypres78 said:
			
		

> If there is a family emergency all your family has to do it contact the school instead of plastering it on facebook.
> 
> What ever will these people do if they can't* tweet while on deployment*?? They can't even handle 4 weeks without their Iphone before they shut er down in basic :
> 
> What a joke.



I could see the news article now....
Cdn soldier Tweets "My platoon is hiking up XZY hill today...." and gets ambushed by Militants.  

LOL


One thing I would love to see more of is MANDATORY cellular etiquette classes taught to all ages both in and pout of the forces.  It might limit the people that check their phone at inappropriate times.


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## MJP

SentryMAn said:
			
		

> I could see the news article now....
> Cdn soldier Tweets "My platoon is hiking up XZY hill today...." and gets ambushed by Militants.



Troops overseas have been able to buy and use civvie cell phones for quite some time and nothing of the sort has happened yet.  Not to say it can't, as the IDF had to cancel a raid because of a soldiers FB status.  But I tend to give the benefit of doubt to trained soldiers to not do silly things.


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## fauntania

Personally, I'm kind of old school and I find the way everyone is always staring at phones and texting and whatnot to be highly irritating.  I was looking forward to that being minimal at BMQ, and who knows, maybe it still will be.  On the good side - perhaps the pay phones won't have such line ups so when I go to call home, it won't take so long.   ;D


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## s23256

yoman said:
			
		

> Could you clarify this by any chance?



Interested as well.

The ND policy that is.


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## HItorMiss

ND Policy:

No longer will the candidate be charge for having an ND in the clearing bay.

Again not my call....


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## dangerboy

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> ND Policy:
> 
> No longer will the candidate be charge for having an ND in the clearing bay.
> 
> Again not my call....



Wondering if that is based on advice from a JAG or his own idea?  Either way not very impressed with the idea.  When you pull the trigger you best be 100% sure you know what you are doing, to many people have been killed or injured as a result of poor weapons handling drills.


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## HItorMiss

Apparently it is legal I am not sure how but then again I am not a JAG. I don't agree with it either but the reason was that the Candidates are intimidated enough with the weapon during the field phase and this will help relive some of the stress.


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## aesop081

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> the reason was that the Candidates are intimidated enough with the weapon during the field phase and this will help relive some of the stress.



More time spent training with the weapon removes the intimidation factor. Once again, we have chosen the expedient solution  :facepalm:


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## MJP

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> ND Policy:
> 
> No longer will the candidate be charge for having an ND in the clearing bay.
> 
> Again not my call....





			
				CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> More time spent training with the weapon removes the intimidation factor. Once again, we have chosen the expedient solution  :facepalm:



I was just thinking the same thing CA.  We instituted a course policy of always having a loaded and readied weapon while outside on two of the BIQs I taught on.  I have had he pleasure of keeping in touch with a number of the soldiers over time.  They all said years later that the respect, experience, & confidence that they gained on the weapon at the time served them well in their careers.  A good number of them are MCpls now and are doing the same thing when they can with their troops.


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## HItorMiss

I tried that with my section during the field phase however one member of the section had an ND in the clearing bay (why he cleared his weapon I don't know) and then I had to resind that order. Sadly the numbers of ND reflects on the Platoon standing as having ND is a PO failure.


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## aesop081

CFLRS unloading problems to the next training establishment................ :facepalm:


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## MJP

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> Sadly the numbers of ND reflects on the Platoon standing as having ND is a PO failure.



Wow talk about unintended consequences.  I think de-linking the two would have been one part of the solution rather than just allowing NDs to slide.  Treat them exactly like they are treated out in big world land.


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## Swingline1984

"PTE!!!...That bed is atrocious, your shirts are wrinkled and your boots need more polish!!!"

  "GASP!!!...but, but, but Sgt I need to improve my score in Angry Birds or RicoSwave123 will pass me on the high score roster!!!"

sigh....what a world, what a world...  :facepalm:


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## kenmnuggas

Yikes, this is a rough one to swallow. 

The following sentence is a joke. Sort of.
I hear people say that it's hard to remember all these military acronyms, but it seems as though they've forgotten the N in ND stands for negligent.


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## GAP

kenmnuggas said:
			
		

> Yikes, this is a rough one to swallow.
> 
> The following sentence is a joke. Sort of.
> I hear people say that it's hard to remember all these military acronyms, but it seems as though they've forgotten the N in ND stands for negligent.



Oh...that's simple to solve....just buy the MilQuotes app http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/military-quotes/id469617175. Then if they're not sure simply look it up before they clear their weapon............. ;D


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## ARMY_101

I really don't see what the big deal is.  During my course I was always allowed to keep my phone on me, as was everyone else unless they screwed around and did something stupid.  Pulling out your phone during a lesson, drill, exercise, patrol, etc. would be a no-brainer severe jacking up and probably result in your phone being taken away for a few hours or a day.

Our courses were also busy after-hours, with weapons cleaning, polishing boots, cleaning, packing for ex, etc., and it was the same as above: if you were playing games on your phone or texting your girlfriend when you should have been studying or doing something else, you'd feel the wrath of the leadership staff very quickly (if not your own platoon and/or section).

That policy worked fine: members were allowed to check their phone and use it during off hours.  I usually even left my phone back in barracks and just checked it when my training and duties were done for the day.  I didn't see anyone bring a laptop, but many of us did bring MP3 players/iPods to listen to music.

There's no reason to be upset at this policy.  Having these items in your possession does not castrate the course staff's ability to temporarily confiscate the items or limit when and where they can be used.


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## Swingline1984

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> I really don't see what the big deal is.  During my course I was always allowed to keep my phone on me, as was everyone else unless they screwed around and did something stupid.  Pulling out your phone during a lesson, drill, exercise, patrol, etc. would be a no-brainer severe jacking up and probably result in your phone being taken away for a few hours or a day.
> 
> Our courses were also busy after-hours, with weapons cleaning, polishing boots, cleaning, packing for ex, etc., and it was the same as above: if you were playing games on your phone or texting your girlfriend when you should have been studying or doing something else, you'd feel the wrath of the leadership staff very quickly (if not your own platoon and/or section).
> 
> That policy worked fine: members were allowed to check their phone and use it during off hours.  I usually even left my phone back in barracks and just checked it when my training and duties were done for the day.  I didn't see anyone bring a laptop, but many of us did bring MP3 players/iPods to listen to music.
> 
> There's no reason to be upset at this policy.  Having these items in your possession does not castrate the course staff's ability to temporarily confiscate the items or limit when and where they can be used.



The biggest problem I have with regards to this issue is that Basic Training 'seems' to be producing a lower quality of soldier by no longer tearing down the wall of entitlement and rebuilding these folks into a functioning member of the organization i.e. a proper soldier.  The Pte soldiers that come to me have no respect for authority, question everything, have very little ability to function in the team environment, and god forbid you ask them to work past 4 o'clock.  Every concession given during the training process is one more issue that adds to the chorus of disciplinary problems on the other end.  Re-education has become my full time job and I now need a degree in social work (every little thing becomes a morale issue).


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## Allgunzblazing

This is entirely my own opinion, but I can't helping considering those Recruits/ Officer Cadets who VR simply because of limited access to the outside world as being misfits for the military. Everyone enrolling into the military knows (or should know) that they can be deployed overseas for months on end, and based on the secracy associated with the mission, outside contact may be limited. 

Apart from all this, the very purpose of indoctrination is to break down and rebuild. 

When I was a residential university student (in India), all first year students had to go through a three month period of "ragging" by the seniors. Mind you, any form of ragging is by law illegal in India. But we were all in a new city for the first time away from home, so deciding to complain never even crossed our minds. I am not condoning what we went through, because a lot of it would be termed as "torture" and "inhumane" in the western world. 

Some of what we went through was - "falling in" from 21:00 to 05:00 hours, repeated slaps during the fall in period, five minute wake up calls through out the night, ironing over 100 cloths a day (belonging to the seniors), not allowed to step outside the hostel (there was only one phone on which calls could only be received and obviously this was reserved for the senior students. Cell phones were too new and none of us could afford them. This was in 98), standing straight and looking directly up at a point on the ceiling for hours, cleaning the toilets and rooms of the senior students, measuring the floor with a coin and if there was a discrepancy there would be that many slaps, etc, etc. Oh yes, the boys had to have their heads shaved during this period. One last detail - guys ragged guys and girls ragged girls. 

Again, I would not like anyone to go through this. The worst was the slaps. I'm talking hard back-handed slaps, not a little rap on the cheek. (One of my friends broke his tooth). What I'm trying to get at, is that going through all this turture strengthened as as a class. There were 30 of us and all of us helped each other out. Say if I was tasked with irons the cloths and a class who had missed being given a task, would automatically help me out (on the sly). We were one united body and all of us are still in contact with each other. Looking back now, we should not have put up with all that crap and should've gone to the police and the university. 

Coming back to the basic training at CFLRS. I'm certain that if there was a death or some other serious situation in my family and they contacted the school,  they will give me the time to make the necessary calls. So, what is the big deal if I dont have access to my cell phone?! This is Canada, one of the richest and most modern country in the world. Its not the CFLRS is located at Timbuktu! 

Again, all the above is my own opinion. Others may agree or disagree.


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## HItorMiss

Swingline1984 said:
			
		

> The biggest problem I have with regards to this issue is that Basic Training 'seems' to be producing a lower quality of soldier by no longer tearing down the wall of entitlement and rebuilding these folks into a functioning member of the organization i.e. a proper soldier.  The Pte soldiers that come to me have no respect for authority, *question everything*, have very little ability to function in the team environment, and god forbid you ask them to work past 4 o'clock.  Every concession given during the training process is one more issue that adds to the chorus of disciplinary problems on the other end.  Re-education has become my full time job and I now need a degree in social work (every little thing becomes a morale issue).



Swing,
I agree with everything you just said and I teach there... The bold, underlined part is actually part of the training syllabus. They are in love with transformational leadership and the idea is that you no longer tell them to do something and they do it, you now will explain the why's and what for's of your commands.


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## ARMY_101

Swingline1984 said:
			
		

> The biggest problem I have with regards to this issue is that Basic Training 'seems' to be producing a lower quality of soldier by no longer tearing down the wall of entitlement and rebuilding these folks into a functioning member of the organization i.e. a proper soldier.  The Pte soldiers that come to me have no respect for authority, question everything, have very little ability to function in the team environment, and god forbid you ask them to work past 4 o'clock.  Every concession given during the training process is one more issue that adds to the chorus of disciplinary problems on the other end.  Re-education has become my full time job and I now need a degree in social work (every little thing becomes a morale issue).



There must be an objective, General-level study on the "quality" of recruits being produced nowadays compared to the "quality" 10, 20, 50 years ago, no?  Recruits today may be more reliant on technology, but they also have an education higher than grade 3, which wasn't seen in the World Wars.  The Americans are also beginning to issue iPhones and computerize individual soldiers doing patrols, so technology is present and it will remain present.  Whether that produces a worse soldier is a study I'd be interested in reading.


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## aesop081

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> but they also have an education higher than grade 3, which wasn't seen in the World Wars.



So ?

That has not prevented them from doing some of stupidest things i have ever seen. Some of my biggest problem children were from this "educated" bunch.......You know, the ones that put a fight when its time to work late, the ones who can't show up to work on time, the ones who don't understand deadlines......The ones who can't write a memo to save their lives......

Yeah, educated  :


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## Swingline1984

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> Swing,
> I agree with everything you just said and I teach there... The bold, underlined part is actually part of the training syllabus. They are in love with transformational leadership and the idea is that you no longer tell them to do something and they do it, you now will explain the why's and what for's of your commands.



And therein lies the problem.  I shouldn't have to line everyone up and play the disappointed dad because they feel sweeping the floor is beneath them.  Sometimes the 'Why' is just common sense i.e. you sweep the floor because it is dirty; it is not a punishment or a reason for hurt feelings and insubordinate behavior.

As for "transformational leadership", if this is how I am expected to lead then when do I get my conversion course and Mr Rogers sweater?


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## jasonf6

If you cannot manage going 4-weeks without your precious iPhone4s or your laptop to call home to mommy you don't belong in the military in my opinion.  Sure times have changed since I went through basic in St. Jean (and it was a joke even then) but c'mon.  For 13-weeks your mindset should be focused solely on being part of a team and doing everything you can to succeed.


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## Armymedic

There has been larger policy shifts in the CF over the last 20 years, and each time a policy changes some members (of similar thought as most of you here) has said this will be detrimental to the Canadian Forces as a whole.

Well perhaps it will be, and perhaps those other policy changes have had a net negative effect too.

But THIS Canadian Forces has just completed two successful huge missions, plus dozens of small ones, while transferring its main efforts from one theater to another plus morphed from a "peacekeeping" role to a combat role to a tng role in the last 10 years. 

I'd say the doom-and-gloom is uncalled for, and its time to earn your "Leading Change" bubble on your PER, as we leaders find a way to mitigate whatever negative effects of this policy may arise.


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## Swingline1984

Rider Pride said:
			
		

> There has been larger policy shifts in the CF over the last 20 years, and each time a policy changes some members (of similar thought as most of you here) has said this will be detrimental to the Canadian Forces as a whole.
> 
> Well perhaps it will be, and perhaps those other policy changes have had a net negative effect too.
> 
> But THIS Canadian Forces has just completed two successful huge missions, plus dozens of small ones, while transferring its main efforts from one theater to another plus morphed from a "peacekeeping" role to a combat role to a tng role in the last 10 years.
> 
> I'd say the doom-and-gloom is uncalled for, and its time to earn your "Leading Change" bubble on your PER, as we leaders find a way to mitigate whatever negative effects of this policy may arise.



I know where you've been working for the last 6years and I know how motivated your personnel can be.  Back in the REAL world I've learned that the grass is truly greener on your side of the fence.  It is BAD out here, at least in my little microcosm, and the failure is systemic.  We have the same workload within the world of Operational Support and are short on trained/experienced leaders and overall manpower, the last thing we need is a hoard of disciplinary issues.  It is unfair that the units have to do the heavy lifting with regards to shaping these kids, in my mind the shaping should be done in the training system and when they are passed onto me I WILL then do MY part and ensure that the new shape is maintained while I endeavour to fill that empty vessel.  At the end of the day I have a role to fill and a task to accomplish which is made all the harder when the troops won't even polish their boots because they do not understand "why" they should, and when disciplinary/administrative action is brought to bear everyone walks around with an even bigger lip and a chip on their shoulder.  What does all this have to do with 'electronics during BMQ"?  It's one more straw on the camel's back.


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## aesop081

Rider Pride said:
			
		

> I'd say the doom-and-gloom is uncalled for,



There is no doom-and-gloom being said. The CF will get on and get the job done quite well. What is deplorable is that we have shifted the burden of indoctrinating recruits from CFLRS to the trade schools and operational units, all in the name of reducing VRs.

A broken clock is right twice a day but it is still broken.


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## ARMY_101

cypres78 said:
			
		

> Technology is a part of the forces, but allowing recruits access to iphone crap so they don't quit BMQ is pathetic.
> 
> If they can't last 4weeks without posting their BMQ ninja sniper stories in their facebook status then they don't belong in the Forces.



What precisely is wrong with allowing someone to call home, text friends, or see what's new in their social circles?

I agree: if someone is so addicted to their phone that it's distracting them from training or holding them back from studying for a test, cleaning, etc., then by all means take it away and discipline them.  And if they're releasing because someone told them to put their phone away, then I'd also agree that they probably don't belong in a trade where they very well may have to go days, weeks, or months without texting or checking Facebook.

I don't know of anyone who couldn't put their phone down or leave it back in the barracks during training.  Most people wouldn't even want to bring it out during training for an exercise or for the day for fear that it would be damaged.  But at night, when everything's done and you're just waiting for orders or sitting on your bed with nothing to do, what's wrong with saying hi to the family?


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## DexOlesa

See THAT I can get on board with as a complaint. I can and do go without my phone as did everyone else on the course. They were never taken away, but we were not to use them during the day, only after hours and weekends, and even then I used it sparingly as did anyone else I saw. But yes people that would quit over not getting their phones for 4 weeks (and you still get them if there is an emergency) should not be in the forces.


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## aesop081

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> And if they're releasing because someone told them to put their phone away, then I'd also agree that they probably don't belong in a trade where they very well may have to go days, weeks, or months without texting or checking Facebook.



So why change the policy to coddle people who were VR'ing due to not having their toys ?



> nothing to do,



Thats the problem right there............


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## GnyHwy

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> What precisely is wrong with allowing someone to call home, text friends, or see what's new in their social circles?



Social media is a distraction, plain and simple; even if it's turned off.  Everything second that is spent thinking about if someone replied to your message, or thinking about what you're going to write in your next message is a second that is not spent focused on training.  Those seconds add up quick and by the end of a 13 week period will sum to a hell of a lot of time. 

This does not stop after recruit training.  I know of more than one occasion where troops (Pte to MCpl) were not allowed to use to use their phones except for lunch; not even breaks.  Snr NCMs and Os do not get any special treatment either.  If they are using social media when they are suppose to be working, they get in crap too.

Communications of all types in the recruit school should be limited to a short window per day.  I say 1-2 hours after supper or your last period; that is usually when our brain is mush anyway.  Special circumstances can be handled on a case by case basis.

Recruits,  you left home to be a soldier.  Cut the cord and move on.  Don't worry, your friends and family will still be there when it's over.


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## Allgunzblazing

GnyHwy, 

I couldn't agree more. Especially what you said about electronic gadgets being a distraction even when turned off. The fact that only the task at hand should be on their minds, can take some people a while to grasp. More so, when the distractions are not out of bounds. 

Cheers,

AGB.


----------



## DirtyDog

Another bold illustration of why the CF is becoming a joke.  Talk to any infantry NCO these days and see how happy they are with the state of things (or rather, more disgruntled than usual).

Yet no one I speak to can seem to put a pin on it.  Post Afghan hang-over?

Anybody that supports a decision like that needs a slap.


----------



## ARMY_101

GnyHwy said:
			
		

> Social media is a distraction, plain and simple; even if it's turned off.  Everything second that is spent thinking about if someone replied to your message, or thinking about what you're going to write in your next message is a second that is not spent focused on training.  Those seconds add up quick and by the end of a 13 week period will sum to a hell of a lot of time.



And you're speaking from first hand experience on this?  I've never seen anyone so distracted or urgently awaiting a Facebook message that they're pre-occupied with sending, receiving, or checking their messages.  Most people have enough common sense to know when and where is appropriate to check their messages, and it would only take one screw up once to fix any ambiguities.

I checked my phone at night or when nothing else was going on.  During the day it was tucked away and only used as a clock when needed.


----------



## jasonf6

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> What precisely is wrong with allowing someone to call home, text friends, or see what's new in their social circles?



For me, when I was at St. Jean back in '94 (and we didn't have cell phones really or the interwebs) I didn't worry about anything other than keeping my sh*t in order in my cubicle and on my floor.  I didn't worry about calling home (because I know where it was and where it would be when I was done) or anything.  Kids nowadays (No, Im no social expert) are too attached to their gadgets; yes, they serve a purpose in today's CF but again, to me, basic is there to prepare you for life in the CF.  The iPhones, Crackberries and the like will be there in 13-weeks.


----------



## ARMY_101

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> So why change the policy to coddle people who were VR'ing due to not having their toys ?



I don't see why it was policy to confiscate electronics in the first place.  If the privilege was being abused then sure, take that person's/section's/platoon's phones away, but as discussed above, what's the problem with checking the news or media updates on your own down time?

I'd have to see the official wording of the order, as well as the cases of individuals who specifically said "I voluntarily release because Sgt. Jones wouldn't let me use my phone."  That probably won't happen, so we're left only to hypothesize...



> Thats the problem right there............



Down time is necessary and okay.  Training can already run from 16-20 hours a day; what's wrong with an hour of "nothing to do"?


----------



## aesop081

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> And you're speaking from first hand experience on this?  I've never seen anyone so distracted or urgently awaiting a Facebook message that they're pre-occupied with sending, receiving, or checking their messages.  Most people have enough common sense to know when and where is appropriate to check their messages, and it would only take one screw up once to fix any ambiguities.
> 
> I checked my phone at night or when nothing else was going on.  During the day it was tucked away and only used as a clock when needed.



101.....the policy was changed specifically to reduce the instance of VRs. Say this out loud a few times until you see whats wrong with that.

It doesn't matter if people have common sense or not, the fact is that people were getting out because they couldn't have their toys. You don't see a problem down the line with that ?


----------



## aesop081

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> so we're left only to hypothesize...



No, we have the word of a CFLRS instructor, whom i know personally.


----------



## ballz

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> And you're speaking from first hand experience on this?  *I've never seen anyone so distracted or urgently awaiting a Facebook message that they're pre-occupied with sending, receiving, or checking their messages. Most people have enough common sense to know when and where is appropriate to check their messages,* and it would only take one screw up once to fix any ambiguities.



We clearly don't live on the same planet.

EDIT spelling


----------



## HItorMiss

Army 101

I am a instructor at CFLRS the person who started this thread so that potential recruits could stop constantly asking what the policy was re electronics (it had recently changed) I will reiterate something for you. from the Commandants mouth " Trials were done on 4 Platoons, those Platoons were allowed to keep their personal electronice (cells phones etc) it was shown that by allowing those recruits to keep their electronic devices that VR's were down 66%"

Now you could argue complete coincidence seeing as no one has ever said I'm VRing because I don't have my phone but the numbers say otherwise don't they.

Rider,

You know me I'm not the doom and gloom type and yes I will be the first to admit a huge culuture shock from working with you to going to CFLRS. I stand by my *personal* assesment that this system is not only wrong it is dangerous (the system as whole not just this policy).


----------



## DirtyDog

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> And you're speaking from first hand experience on this?  I've never seen anyone so distracted or urgently awaiting a Facebook message that they're pre-occupied with sending, receiving, or checking their messages.  Most people have enough common sense to know when and where is appropriate to check their messages, and it would only take one screw up once to fix any ambiguities.
> 
> I checked my phone at night or when nothing else was going on.  During the day it was tucked away and only used as a clock when needed.


I've seen troops on operation (ever been on one?) get downright PISSY when they found out they'd be seperated from the internet for 72 hours.  I wouldn't normally say it's a generational thing, as there were a lot of guys in his age bracket who could handle a little austerity (know what that is?) now again, but it is FAR more common to see it among the younger troops who can't pull their faces out of their smart phone or laptop.

Anyone who sees fit to defend a decision like this is out of touch with what soldiering is about.  If a bunch of punks can't handle 4 weeks without their precious gadgets they need to be spit back out on the streets and their foul taste erased from the army's memory.

FYI - Electronics were allowed on most of my BMQ as it wasn't seen as much of a problem then and it didn't seem to be a distraction either.  However, there were many instances in my career with everything was strictly forbidden and somehow, I managed.


----------



## ARMY_101

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> Army 101
> 
> I am a instructor at CFLRS the person who started this thread so that potential recruits could stop constantly asking what the policy was re electronics (it had recently changed) I will reiterate something for you. from the Commandants mouth " Trials were done on 4 Platoons, those Platoons were allowed to keep their personal electronice (cells phones etc) it was shown that by allowing those recruits to keep their electronic devices that VR's were down 66%"
> 
> Now you could argue complete coincidence seeing as no one has ever said I'm VRing because I don't have my phone but the numbers say otherwise don't they.



Fair enough. I did not mean for my comments to suggest you were lying or unaware of what was said, if that's how it came out.

I think I've said my peace on this topic.


----------



## jasonf6

DirtyDog said:
			
		

> Anyone who sees fit to defend a decision like this is out of touch with what soldiering is about.  If a bunch of punks can't handle 4 weeks without their precious gadgets they need to be spit back out on the streets and their foul taste erased from the army's memory.



 :+1:


----------



## GnyHwy

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> And you're speaking from first hand experience on this?



As an experienced instructor and leader of troops, yes.  It is very simple to tell when troops are distracted.  Is that entirely because of phones?  No, I don't believe so, but it I am certain that it is in some cases.

Now that it seems that I am a hardass jerk, this is not the case.  I am quite the opposite; I am a very reasonable guy.  This is my earlier quote.



			
				GnyHwy said:
			
		

> Communications of all types in the recruit school should be limited to a short window per day.  I say 1-2 hours after supper or your last period; that is usually when our brain is mush anyway.  Special circumstances can be handled on a case by case basis.



This can be simplified down to understanding priorities, which a significant number of young troops don't yet understand.  During the work day and except for significant family issues, if social media is anywhere but the bottom of the list, then priorities have been misplaced.


----------



## Bass ackwards

It seems to me that this is the world that we built for ourselves. The spoiled, instant-gratification, me-first/me-only world that we've been carefully cultivating since the sixties.
It's probably not the one that most of the readers/posters here wanted -and in fact many probably tried their level best to prevent -but there it is. 
It's like an infuriated conservative watching Trudeau/Cretien/Martin being elected (or, for that matter, a no doubt equally infuriated liberal watching Steven Harper being sworn in).
It's not the world you want. For Goddamn sure you knew what the consequences would be -but the majority made that decision for you.

But from what I've seen, somehow, miraculously, some pretty good kids still manage to claw their way up the pipeline.
Not just in the military but in civvie jobs too. 

I think the best we can do is cultivate the good ones, try the best we can with the so-so, and let Mr Darwin take the rest. 

Just my  :2c:


----------



## jaolt1

Certainly agree with all  comments that this new directive makes one shake his/her head . But...there you have it "the crux of the biscuit" its been comin' on for a long time. I feel sometimes my hands are tied as to how I raise my son. We all have to pull on the same rope to make it work. Seems to me the young fellers today would rather argue that point or tell me "go to hell old man".

Just sayin'


----------



## Jarnhamar

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> All
> 
> As of now recruits and Officer Cadets *WILL* be allowed to have access to their personal electronics (Cell phone, Laptop, IPod etc etc) for the entire course.
> 
> no longer will they be taken for the first 4 weeks of training and then accessed only on weekends after the 4 week in-doc. Now all candidates will have access to them for the entire course.
> 
> The Commandant has taken this step as it was seen to reduce the VR rate by 66% during the trial PL's that were run.
> 
> On a personal note many of you will cry havoc at this step (myself included) but he is the CO and thus we follow his directives. Do I like it no, do I agree with it *HELL NO* but there it is. And people wonder why I am releasing....  :
> 
> Edit: Spelling



This is a really bad move.

The fact that banning electronic devices was causing an increased VR rate tells me that the ban is doing it's job.
People these day go to shit if they can't access their cell phones or the internet. We punted a Sgt from tour while overseas because he couldn't disconnect from stupid online dating websites.
NCMs sneaking off to text is a huge problem. future leaders on my leadership course would sit in the back of the class and ignore the class material and text or watch porn and laugh about it.

if a kid is going to cry and want to quit because he can't update facebook for a month then that's not the kind of person we need in the military. I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir with this.  I think the Commandant is looking at numbers and not quality, unfortunately.


----------



## McG

I have heard that some US Army schools have responded to the problem of an iPhone addicted recruit base by issuing iPhones to everybody on occupation training.
... of course, like every CF issued Blackberry, the techs have disabled all the features that the schools don't want the students using, and the majority of apps are actually e-learning tools (like a US Army Ethic trg app).  Instead of Angry Birds, the games socialize messages of US Army culture.


----------



## Tank Troll

With postions in the Forces being limited as they are these days you'd think we would want to be more selective. If not having electronic devices makes people quit then I say GOOD it is an other weeding out process. Remember YOU joined the CF we didn't join you! You need to fit to our world and regulations not the other way around.


----------



## krustyrl

:goodpost:


----------



## jasonf6

Tank Troll said:
			
		

> With postions in the Forces being limited as they are these days you'd think we would want to be more selective. If not have electronic devices makes people quit then I say GOOD it is an other weeding out process. Remember YOU joined the CF we didn't join you! You need to fit to our world and regulations not the other way around.


Exactly.  Use their inability to cope with the loss of their precious devices as another screening tool.  

I don't know about anyone else but the last thing I wanted to be doing during basic and battle school at the end of the day was worrying about a missed text message or e-mail.  I was tired and had a crapload of things to get ready for the morning before heading to bed.  I had other priorities.


----------



## Craisome

I consider myself lucky that I'm slightly above the texting generation (I think).

If you think kids these days aren't addicted to texting or updating status all the time, I took my 16 year old cousin hunting for the first time this year. 

What did he do the first thing after shooting a partridge?  Make a post on Facebook...   Gun in one hand, cell phone in the other.


----------



## OldSolduer

When a policy such as this changes we usually have two sides:

THE SKY IS FALLING crowd - those that think the overall effectiveness of the CF is totally compromised over some electronic devices that recruits are allowed during BMQ.

Then we have the other side that thinks its fine and unlimited use is OK no matter what standard the recruit accomplishes.

Have you ever thought we have policies in place to deal with this? IF Recruit Bloggins has not completed his/her tasks as ordered by his Section commander due to his /her excessive time on line.....he/she can be charged or counselled, correct? So what's wrong with the recruits keeping cell phones/electronics provided they get their jobs done to the standard expected?

Its the 21st Century, troops.  I don't see the issue here.


----------



## DexOlesa

> The instructors at BMQ are being put to task for taking such aggressive postures as putting their hands on their hips, or crossing their arms



The troops too, at least by the PSP staff. After a run or something if you put your hands on your hips you were showing an aggressive and unacceptable stance, group pushups ensue. I don't know where that BS came from. None of my course staff scared me by putting their hands on their hips or the overly aggressive arm crossing..... They had much better ways to scare me  >


----------



## aesop081

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> When a policy such as this changes we usually have two sides:



No, Jim, we see 3 crowds.

I'm in the crowd that doesn't think the sky is falling but i am in the crowd that thinks we simply shifted the burden of indoctrinating new soldiers away from CFLRS to further down the line. Now the burden falls on trade schools and units to deal with troops who are inadequately prepared for the realities of military life.

The sky will not fall and our soldiers will still win wars but we just gave the units one more duty, do CFLRS's job.



> I don't see the issue here.



Its the 21st century, i dont see the need to parade soldiers around like show horses.  ;D


----------



## SentryMAn

Swingline1984 said:
			
		

> It's not just this single "issue" it is the idea that we need to keep making concessions for these kids.  I'm glad you're not seeing it in your neck of the woods but it is all adding up and creates a hell of a mess for the rest of us to clean up.  If I am going to be questioned by troops on my policies which are apparently counterpoised to this new secret CF leadership initiative (secret because I have received no indoctrination) than I don't want to be held accountable when they finally throw it all under the bus.  The instructors at BMQ are being put to task for taking such aggressive postures as putting their hands on their hips, or crossing their arms because they might intimidate the troops, and on the other end I'm getting harassment complaints because the Sergeants are "mean" (read: have expectations that the troops will listen and respond appropriately to direction).  I remember when a Section had one or two bad eggs, now I have a 50% problem.  It isn't everyone (I have some good kids), and it goes beyond cell phones and also speaks to the quality of  Jr leaders we are producing, our middle management etc.  I'm not saying I have anarchy or that I'm incapable of doing my job, in fact we've turned the issue on it's ear and some of my worst problems have become my most productive soldiers, however, it shouldn't be my job to teach the basics (if it is then give me more staff and I'll stand up a training section).  My organization is responsible for the maintenance of strategic communications infrastructure in Canada, it is hard and dangerous work sometimes, if the troops don't listen or decide the Sgt doesn't know what he's talking about and take their own "enlightened" path, then people could die.  It's not the policy itself we are concerned about, but the overall methodology.  I wish I had all the answers, but until then the beatings will only increase until morale improves.



Well put.
The CF's mandate of being a soldier first should not include things like Use of electronic communication devices outside of a radio and/or GPS unit.

But with all things in the CF, the CO will tell me what is acceptable and I shall enforce that policy and that will be the end of the argument.


----------



## Tank Troll

I've had students electronic devices go off while I was teaching lectures. Once while doing driver training one of them actually pulled their phone out and answer it. I have heard them going off during inspections. I've come in after lights out to find half a dozen glows coming from bunk spaces.  All of this with a limited electronic policy in effect. 
 This is a process to get them to stop being individuals and part of a team. When we went to Cornwallis (the old place for basic before the Mega) we had our civvies, magazines and books locked up so we would only wear our issued kit and have no distraction to help assimilate us into a team. Having individuals constantly updating status, texting, doing what ever it is that they spend hours a day doing is a distration and is detrimental to their learning process. My kids were physical sick when they found out there was no TV, Internet, or Cell coverage at the cottage we rented last Summer, so too say that they aren't addicted or they don't need there devices, well we all know that it just isn't true.
 So like safety rules policies get put in place because of others actions.


----------



## aesop081

Tank Troll said:
			
		

> When we went to Cornwallis (the old place for basic *before* the Mega)



Point of note, basic training in St-Jean pre-dates the megaplex and was going on at the same time as basic in Cornwallis. Only anglophone candidates had to change training location.


----------



## ARMY_101

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> When a policy such as this changes we usually have two sides:
> 
> THE SKY IS FALLING crowd - those that think the overall effectiveness of the CF is totally compromised over some electronic devices that recruits are allowed during BMQ.
> 
> Then we have the other side that thinks its fine and unlimited use is OK no matter what standard the recruit accomplishes.
> 
> Have you ever thought we have policies in place to deal with this? IF Recruit Bloggins has not completed his/her tasks as ordered by his Section commander due to his /her excessive time on line.....he/she can be charged or counselled, correct? So what's wrong with the recruits keeping cell phones/electronics provided they get their jobs done to the standard expected?
> 
> Its the 21st Century, troops.  I don't see the issue here.



Well put.  This policy in no way cancels out the existing mechanisms in place to deal with unacceptable behaviour.


----------



## Swingline1984

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> Well put.  This policy in no way cancels out the existing mechanisms in place to deal with unacceptable behaviour.



Nope not at all.  It just creates MORE "unacceptable behaviour".


----------



## Tank Troll

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Point of note, basic training in St-Jean pre-dates the megaplex and was going on at the same time as basic in Cornwallis. Only anglophone candidates had to change training location.



Hence the term *we* meaning us anglaphones


----------



## estoguy

I read this thread with interest, as I'm still in the application process.  I can see both sides to the argument.  Personally, I agree with the old rules and was fully prepared for it.  Friends who know that I'm in the process have been told that if I do get accepted, contact with me will be seriously curtailed.

My mindset is that even if it is still allowed if/when I'd be doing Basic, I plan on keeping it to a bare minimum.  I think it would be a good challenge for platoons to agree NOT to use their devices for a set period of time and later to limit their use - could be a good team builder.  I'm there do to a job and do the best I can.  Its going to be one of the biggest challenges of my life, and I don't need the distraction.  And I know I can detach myself from my devices. 

I do agree with the view of many that this could be a detriment to the training process.  I know my friends and devices will still be there at the conclusion of training.  To me, the military is a serious business and if someone can't detach from their devices/Internet, that the military may not be the best choice of profession.


----------



## 2010newbie

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> Well put.  This policy in no way cancels out the existing mechanisms in place to deal with unacceptable behaviour.



Yes, but it seems those mechanisms aren't as effective either. On our platoon we were allowed cell phones during the week after the training day and all other electronics on the weekend. One member of our platoon would spend his whole weekend watching movies in his room and never completed his tasks. He received numerous counsellings and swipes, had multiple PO failures, and failed all three attempts at his final "Vimy" exercise. At his PRB, the platoon staff suggestions regarding releasing from the military or taking the NCM route were overturned and last I heard he is being recoursed for BMOQ next summer.

There were a few people in our platoon that I felt should not have passed BMOQ and it seemed as though the staff didn't have a choice but to pass them.


----------



## armyvern

Swingline1984 said:
			
		

> The instructors at BMQ are being put to task for taking such aggressive postures as putting their hands on their hips, or crossing their arms because they might intimidate the troops, and on the other end I'm getting harassment complaints because the Sergeants are "mean" (read: have expectations that the troops will listen and respond appropriately to direction).



...

Passing on the sorting out to some other entity down the line; nice.

... Seriously, WTF!? If today's recruits can not handle hands on hips or arms crossed because it's intimidating, here's a pic of the real world outside of BMQ for them --- taken in pretty cushy circumstances. It's a double-whammy: arms crossed and my hands are on my hips. I can feel the PTSD claims coming in now ... sigh.

 :


----------



## aesop081

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> Passing on the sorting out to some other entity down the line; nice.



Yup, thats all it ends up being. All in the name of reducing VRs.

That being allowed their gadgets changed the rate of VRs should be seen as an indication that our selection process is letting us down.


----------



## CountDC

reading through the thread all I kept coming up with was - sigh, another posting choice gone.

Back around 89/90 while instructing on a driver course I had the pleasure of visiting good old Aldershot for a weekend at the same time a reserve unit was running a basic.  For some reason it was decided that our staff and their candidates would be in one side of the h-hut while our candidates were in the other side.  Made it a bit interesting the first morning.  All the staff knew their course Sgt and what he was like so took great pleasure in hiding out of sight while they went through inspection......then we heard it and were shocked.  Not only was he being questioned by a recruit but in a tone that would normally resulted in him shoving his boot in a very uncomfortable spot prior to eating her alive.  This time nothing but a quite response like a whipped puppy.  Of course we jumped him after to find out what was up with it.  Turned out that they had been read the riot act - treat the recruits with kid gloves, no yelling, no tearing strips, they would all pass or the staff would pay.  These kids had it easier than our pte/cpls and even the Lt on the course.  End result?  That unit had many problems after and lost a good Sgt instructor who refused to do any after that.

What does this have to do with the current situation?  Perhaps nothing at all.  or perhaps it is that they should consider the over all out come of policy changes.  Is this another policy that is going to make people want to avoid school postings as just being too much of a headache?

I know it is a concern for me as I see less and less of the hardline at basic and at CFSAL.  Ever have a private inform you that they don't get paid enough to take crap and don't have to take crap?  How about the oops we screwed up but it is your fault?  My fav is:"look I did it when you asked" while showing a print screen that clearly shows it had just been done not the month prior when asked. I see more problem children passing through the training system to the units to deal with.  As mentioned by others this shouldn't be happening.

Yes we have done some great things in the last decade but perhaps that is because the units have picked up the slack from the schools and created the soldiers the school should have.

Don't change policies to pamper the weak.  For those instructing at the schools my sympathy.  I will predict you will have more and more problems with recruits tied to their devices.  There is a reason schools are now banning them.  

enough rambling.  Cheers.


----------



## Tank Troll

This is the results of being catered to all their lives. They whined and they got. The "Entitlement generation" is about to enter full force in the work place and the Canadian Forces, and we are still catering to them. This all started about 15 to 20 years ago in schools when teachers weren't allowed to punish the students any more or fail them for not passing the required courses.


----------



## SentryMAn

My favorite punishment for breaking the rule woudl have to have been.

EVERYONE in the pushup position but Mr. XXXX
We will all continue to do push-ups until Mr. XXXX is finished...what ever it is that they were doing wrong.

The next generation is going to take a lot of spoon feeding, the complete mentality they have will be interesting to witness in theater of war.
"Mr. enemy can you hold on 10 mins while I update my Facebook page with this picture of a funny dog trick?"

LOL


----------



## OldSolduer

Its nice out here in the Prairies. When we run BMQs, they are usually in Minto Armouries or they are quartered on 17 Wing . No internet that they can log on to in either place. I'm not sure about the policy on cell phones.
We can still, with justification, counsel those who err and we attempt to place them on the paths of righteousness.

I'm not being sarcastic, but we in the Reserves, especially in the Prairies, don't always take our lead from CFLRS when it comes to BMQ.

Sometimes the Reg Force (which I was a part of for 24.5 years, and three of that in CFRS Cornwallis) gets it all wrong.


----------



## medicineman

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> Passing on the sorting out to some other entity down the line; nice.
> 
> ... Seriously, WTF!? If today's recruits can not handle hands on hips or arms crossed because it's intimidating, here's a pic of the real world outside of BMQ for them --- taken in pretty cushy circumstances. It's a double-whammy: arms crossed and my hands are on my hips. I can feel the PTSD claims coming in now ... sigh.
> 
> :



...and the kids in the recruit training don't have to worry about the loaded pistols you dudes/ette were wearing either  :.

I said it once somewhere else - part of Recruit training is to learn to deal with deprivation...here's an idea, why not put cell phone jammers all over CFLRS, so that you can only use the phones in certain areas, that you have to EARN your way into.  Keep your phones sure, if you need that blankie, but you won't be able to use it.   >  

 :2c:

MM


----------



## armyvern

medicineman said:
			
		

> ...and the kids in the recruit training don't have to worry about the loaded pistols you dudes/ette were wearing either  :.
> 
> ...



Well, apparently they don't have to worry about NDs any more either in the land of BMQ where they now allegedly come free-of-charge if occuring in a clearing bay, but may cost someone their life. BMQ/BOTP _*is the time * _ to get comfortable with them and their handling. That's the "B" in BASIC dammit. The BASIC soldiering shit that will save your life and others. Me thinks someone's forgetting all that these days.


----------



## HItorMiss

Vern

Sadly it isn't an apparently that is a fact. No more charge for ND's in a clearing bay it is a PO failure and a counseling


----------



## jasonf6

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Yup, thats all it ends up being. All in the name of reducing VRs.
> 
> That being allowed their gadgets changed the rate of VRs should be seen as an indication that our selection process is letting us down.


Couldn't agree more.  

I know I come from a time when this didn't matter; being that in '94 we didn't have cellphones, laptops or the interwebs (much), but I've said it before that if you can't go 13-weeks and trades without checking facebook and texting your mom/gf/spouse/significant other then the military might not be for you.


----------



## PiperDown

MJP said:
			
		

> Troops overseas have been able to buy and use civvie cell phones for quite some time and nothing of the sort has happened yet.



your very bold statement WRT cell phones (and other portable electronic devices) never leading to an ambush is information I highly doubt you are privy to.  Trust me, if something like that ever happened... you will never hear about it. Other than a random reiteration of acceptable use policy.


----------



## OldSolduer

PiperDown said:
			
		

> your very bold statement WRT cell phones (and other portable electronic devices) never leading to an ambush is information I highly doubt you are privy to.  Trust me, if something like that ever happened... you will never hear about it. Other than a random reiteration of acceptable use policy.



And you are privy to that kind of information?


----------



## Infanteer

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> And you are privy to that kind of information?



Looking at his profile - probably.


----------



## OldSolduer

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Looking at his profile - probably.



I looked  as well.


----------



## Armymedic

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> Vern
> 
> Sadly it isn't an apparently that is a fact. No more charge for ND's in a clearing bay it is a PO failure and a counseling



The way I read is that instead of taking a "disciplinary" action, i.e. a charge  followed by punishment, the school is proceeding with an "administrative" action where shortcomings will be explain and corrective training will take place to ensure the mistake is not made again.  Hopefully more than 1 PO failure (of any type, not just weapons handling) on a course will result in the candidate being put on a PRB and  recoursed.


----------



## Jarnhamar

I spoke with a little birdy.

The 66% greater retention rate (sounds like a big number) turned out to apparently equal 2 troops.
The platoon involved in it was the "warrior platoon".   Electronics were taken away from a platoon of newbies who just started basic training. The platoon of warriors were allowed to keep their electronics, some of whom have been kicking around the system for a year +. 
Some people when told they were loosing their electronics, quit. (Are those the kinda soldiers we want defending Canada?)

In the end the 'do everything possible to keep these recruits in the CF' turned out to see less VRs....but more training failures. The ones who didn't belong and wanted to quit but were coerced into staying ended up passing recruit school  but failing their trades course, quitting down the road or punted out for discipline and administrative issues.


----------



## armyvern

Rider Pride said:
			
		

> The way I read is that instead of taking a "disciplinary" action, i.e. a charge  followed by punishment, the school is proceeding with an "administrative" action where shortcomings will be explain and corrective training will take place to ensure the mistake is not made again.  Hopefully more than 1 PO failure (of any type, not just weapons handling) on a course will result in the candidate being put on a PRB and  recoursed.



A PO failure and an *Initial Counselling*? Or just a nice little chit chat counselling session with staff??

Only an Initial Counselling that is placed on the members file is a form of official administrative sanction (followed up by RW, then C&P). A chit chat certainly doesn't qualify on this front.

Oh, and official administrative action NEVER precludes the application of official disciplinary actions. *It's an ND for cripes sake* - they KILL people - ~ not a damn "you have a dust bunny on your uniform".


----------



## dapaterson

Fundamentally, the problem is that we measure the wrong things at CFLRS.  "Passing BMQ" and "Passing BMOQ" are useless stats.  Any CO can tweak conditions (and get Leading Change points oin their PER) and make it easier to graduate.

We should be measuring successful achievement of the Fuctional Operational Point - where pers are qualified and employable.  Anyone who fails before that point and leaves is a failure for the recruiting system and a failure for CFLRS.

As long as CFLRS only cares about BMQ/BMOQ grads, there are perverse incentives in the system.


----------



## vonGarvin

You make a good point, but for now, I'll just make quick reference to the army systems' approach to training.  (I'm just on my phone now.  Post later)


----------



## MJP

PiperDown said:
			
		

> your very bold statement WRT cell phones (and other portable electronic devices) never leading to an ambush is information I highly doubt you are privy to.  Trust me, if something like that ever happened... you will never hear about it. Other than a random reiteration of acceptable use policy.



If all things worked as well as they should,  no I shouldn't (nor should 99% of the rest of the CF), but scuttlebutt happens.  I shouldn't have made such a blanket statement, but the then again claiming that no one will ever hear about it is just as silly.  We don't deal in absolutes in the profession of arms in most things we do, nor should we claim that we do.  Mea Culpa.


----------



## PiperDown

agreed.


----------



## vonGarvin

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Fundamentally, the problem is that we measure the wrong things at CFLRS.  "Passing BMQ" and "Passing BMOQ" are useless stats.  Any CO can tweak conditions (and get Leading Change points oin their PER) and make it easier to graduate.
> 
> We should be measuring successful achievement of the Fuctional Operational Point - where pers are qualified and employable.  Anyone who fails before that point and leaves is a failure for the recruiting system and a failure for CFLRS.
> 
> As long as CFLRS only cares about BMQ/BMOQ grads, there are perverse incentives in the system.


And I'm back.
So, as I was saying, the ASAT has very definite stages to follow to train an individual for a position, be it infantryman, signaller, or whatever.  Now, I realise that BMQ and BMOQ are CF courses, but I'm fairly confident that they follow a similar pattern.
For Army courses, LFDTS holds the "key" on what is required to pass a course.  This is the Qualification Standard, and lays out in very clear terms what is required of an individual on day one of the job.  It takes all the skills required and breaks them down, and the result is that you end up with Performance Objectives.  In theory, at least, if the skill set of "a" isn't identified at the QS Writing Board (QSWB), then it isn't trained on course, nor is it required.  It must be noted that for every PO, there are conditions set, including things that are "given" (such as a map, compass, suitable training area) and things that are "denied" (such as assistance).  A crafty QS board could put into the QS for either BMQ or BMOQ that one of the "denied" items for either course could be personal communications devices for 'x' weeks, in which case the CO would not have the authority to give or take away such things.

As for measuring the Functional Operating Point, this comes to the final step of the Army Systems' Approach to Training: validation.  This is where for the Army, anyway, and in theory, CTC or LFDTS (can't remember which off the top of my head) is to go to the user (eg: armour regiments, etc) and assess whether the stuff in the QS fits the actual needs of the job.  So, for army courses anyway, it is done, at least in theory.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Technoviking said:
			
		

> And I'm back.
> So, as I was saying, the ASAT has very definite stages to follow to train an individual for a position, be it infantryman, signaller, or whatever.  Now, I realise that BMQ and BMOQ are CF courses, but I'm fairly confident that they follow a similar pattern.
> For Army courses, LFDTS holds the "key" on what is required to pass a course.  This is the Qualification Standard, and lays out in very clear terms what is required of an individual on day one of the job.  It takes all the skills required and breaks them down, and the result is that you end up with Performance Objectives.  In theory, at least, if the skill set of "a" isn't identified at the QS Writing Board (QSWB), then it isn't trained on course, nor is it required.  *It must be noted that for every PO, there are conditions set, including things that are "given" (such as a map, compass, suitable training area) and things that are "denied" (such as assistance).  A crafty QS board could put into the QS for either BMQ or BMOQ that one of the "denied" items for either course could be personal communications devices for 'x' weeks, in which case the CO would not have the authority to give or take away such things.*
> As for measuring the Functional Operating Point, this comes to the final step of the Army Systems' Approach to Training: validation.  This is where for the Army, anyway, and in theory, CTC or LFDTS (can't remember which off the top of my head) is to go to the user (eg: armour regiments, etc) and assess whether the stuff in the QS fits the actual needs of the job.  So, for army courses anyway, it is done, at least in theory.




Techno, from my past experiences on WB's that is a very hard one to justify and place in the given/denied colum. It will all depend on the chair amongst other things....


----------



## Michael OLeary

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Techno, from my past experiences on WB's that is a very hard one to justify and place in the given/denied colum. It will all depend on the chair amongst other things....



Which brings us full circle to the view that if there isn't a clearly defined impact on training it is hard to justify removing the electronics that may help some with the transition to military life. It's easy to say "we didn't need it, therefore they don't need it", but "we" didn't all have cell phones, etc., as a common lifestyle accessory in our day to begin with so we don't have a clear shared point of reference regarding the effects of an apparently (to the recruit) arbitrary removal. 

If we are going to recruit from that pool of young Canadians who use their cells, etc, for comms then we have to learn how to integrate them into our military society by developing their understanding of the right and wrong times to use them and the added requirements to prioritize their use along with everything else we expect from them. I would rather see they develop that skill at the BMQ level than trying to do it later during trades training or in units. If we, as a system, don't address it early, we create a downstream effect when the get their toys back without having developed any understanding of their appropriate integration with military daily life. If that integration starts off at BMQ with clearly defined permissions and in house rules then they will have a baseline to adjust from as they progress. 

As for the idea thats some recruits will be so distracted that they won't be able to do what we expect from them, I suspect these will often be the ones who would wash out anyway, at BMQ or later, for the same ADD behaviour. I would suggest that this will be a definite benefit to those recruits who will not have a training issue because of access to electronics, but will be able to maintain more consistent contact to spouses/SOs, children or family who are also undergoing the stress of separation. If this means a few good troops don't have to VR in order to sort out family issues that became disasters during a "black-out period" during which comms were difficult to maintain, then it's to our advantage that they can solve their problems and continue to succeed in training.

If nothing else, it should be considered worthy of a legitimate trial. If the collected assessments and judgment of the staff determine there is a clear disadvantage, then the CO has the power to remove it again and there is then a basis on which to define the restriction at the next QSWB.


----------



## vonGarvin

Very good post.

My idea of the taking away of commodities such as cell phones, phone privelages, etc, is just part of the psychological stripping and then build up throughout basic training.  Remember, we have a bunch of civilians walking in, and we have soldiers walking out.  There is so much more than just teaching stuff from a lesson plan.  And while it's true that cell phones were not invented when I went through, and the "Internet" was just a collection known as "Usenet" for geeks and for preservation of information following a nuclear strike by the USSR, it's just one "privelage" that is to be earned back following good performance.  And I think we all somehow realise that outside distractions adversely affect training.  By how much and what measures we ought to do it?  That is the question, I suppose, and it's more than an instinct.


----------



## armyvern

I just got back.

Welfare Comms ended in July. No more internet, no more phones to call home with. You wanted the net? You paid 180 bucks US a month for civilian high-speed access that was absolutely slower than any dial-up I had to use in my "youth" if you were lucky enough to be able to get logged in. 6 months of "austere".

I thank goodness that I didn't have any of those of today's Basic candidates there who can't last 4 weeks in more ideal conditions and so are VRing instead ... 

Long story short: We had higher priority and, quite frankly, more important shit to deal with out there in the big world.

The CF will go on and anyone who thinks it won't because little Johnny or Mable can't get online or have _i_access is very very wrong and little Johnny and Mable will be in for some pretty rude awakenings.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Technoviking said:
			
		

> My idea of the taking away of commodities such as cell phones, phone privelages, etc, is just part of the psychological stripping and then build up throughout basic training.  Remember, we have a bunch of civilians walking in, and we have soldiers walking out.



Unfortunately, we've never actually defined what we mean by that perceived need for "psychological stripping and then build[ing] up."  Or explained why it might be essential in the closed envoronment of CFLRS but doesn't appear to be needed, or applied, in unit run Reserve BMQ courses. Quite often what we do is very useful, even important, to our training processes, but when we cannot provide proof of that assumption because we've never gathered baisc data on it, then it doesn't matter how strong our instincts might be when the method is challenged. And then we find ourselves gathering the necessary data to prove what we believed was a core assumption actually exists as we believed it did.


----------



## SentryMAn

What happens to these soldiers when they hit a point in their career where they are not alowed to have their phone on them while working?  Many places on bases are cellular phone banned?

Will they VR then after the military has spent thousands on training?


----------



## Jungle

MJP said:
			
		

> Troops overseas have been able to buy and use civvie cell phones for quite some time and nothing of the sort has happened yet.



Something did happen to us... recently.


----------



## dapaterson

SentryMAn said:
			
		

> What happens to these soldiers when they hit a point in their career where they are not alowed to have their phone on them while working?  Many places on bases are cellular phone banned?
> 
> Will they VR then after the military has spent thousands on training?



VR is not a right.  The CF can refuse a request for voluntary release.  That's when folks will learn that they should have been paying attention to lectures and to the paperwork they signed on enrolment.


----------



## Michael OLeary

SentryMAn said:
			
		

> What happens to these soldiers when they hit a point in their career where they are not alowed to have their phone on them while working?  Many places on bases are cellular phone banned?
> 
> Will they VR then after the military has spent thousands on training?



Do you really think our soldiers are that fragile? Do you really think that CFLRS will not brief them on appropriate times to use cell phones, etc., and ensure they understand that in their careers there will be times when total blackouts and turning in of phones will occur?


----------



## MJP

Jungle said:
			
		

> Something did happen to us... recently.



Hence why I said I shouldn't have made such a blanket statement.  I also should have said that I have seen (and heard of) poor comsec and persec procedures from troops overseas using cellphones that could have resulted some info getting into the wrong hands. Luckily in those few cases nothing happened.  In most cases that  I have seen it is people that say or post things inadvertently/innocently not realizing what can be gleamed from that info.  I am not naive enough to think that just because one is trained, that they will make the right decision with regards to their electronic usage overseas.  I was just saying that for the most part our soldiers are pretty compliant and gauge their usage properly.   
This is what we haven't seen yet   http://articles.cnn.com/2010-03-03/world/israel.raid.facebook_1_idf-soldier-israel-defense-forces?_s=PM:WORLD



			
				MJP said:
			
		

> If all things worked as well as they should,  no I shouldn't (nor should 99% of the rest of the CF), but scuttlebutt happens.  I shouldn't have made such a blanket statement, but the then again claiming that no one will ever hear about it is just as silly.  We don't deal in absolutes in the profession of arms in most things we do, nor should we claim that we do.  Mea Culpa.


----------



## SentryMAn

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> *Do you really think our soldiers are that fragile?* Do you really think that CFLRS will not brief them on appropriate times to use cell phones, etc., and ensure they understand that in their careers there will be times when total blackouts and turning in of phones will occur?



No I do not, but the way things are going with recruits and the new generation of entitled kids coming down the pipe, they very may well be.  I've been able to witness it on the civi side and it's not a pleasant experience.  Training evolves and changes, I imagine things are a lot different now then in the 70's 80's and 90's and will continue to evolve.

You would not believe the stories I could tell you about the generation that is currently entering the working force on the civilian side from a few educator friends I have, things that made me  :facepalm: and thank goodness I wasn't born 10 years later in life.


----------



## OldSolduer

SentryMAn said:
			
		

> You would not believe the stories I could tell you about the generation that is currently entering the working force on the civilian side from a few educator friends I have, things that made me  :facepalm: and thank goodness I wasn't born 10 years later in life.



I've had first hand experience with this "new generation" and they aren't that new. I think we're making much ado about nothing. 

If they are deployed to an area where there is no connectivity except for CF work only, then so be it. They will adapt, much like we have adapted.

But - IMO the first thing we should do is exercise in the "austere environment " ie leave your cell phones at home and the iPad won't be needed either.


----------



## George Wallace

How did we ever survive the COLD WAR without the Internet and Cell phones?


----------



## Michael OLeary

George Wallace said:
			
		

> How did we ever survive the COLD WAR without the Internet and Cell phones?



And I am certain there were some Sergeants-Major in the 1950s proclaiming the impending Armegeddon when they saw those damn kids of the 1950s showing up with their rock and roll music.  How did we ever survive?


----------



## OldSolduer

George Wallace said:
			
		

> How did we ever survive the COLD WAR without the Internet and Cell phones?



Yes - how did we do it? Oh- by radio, telephone, tin cans and string.....and in large part we would have used inidividual initiative.



			
				Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> And I am certain there were some Sergeants-Major in the 1950s proclaiming the impending Armegeddon when they saw those damn kids of the 1950s showing up with their rock and roll music.  How did we ever survive?



They said the same thing in the 70s when privates were buying their own cars!! THE SKY IS FALLING!


----------



## armyvern

Stacked said:
			
		

> A lot has changed at CFLRS in the past two months since I graduated it seems.. My Platoon mates sure as hell were charged for their ND's, $150 I think it was. They made us watch their summary trial on Graduation Day.



Wow; that's cheap. I'm used to ~2500 bucks these days (deployed of course). Were they into clearing bays?


----------



## aesop081

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> And I am certain there were some Sergeants-Major in the 1950s proclaiming the impending Armegeddon when they saw those damn kids of the 1950s showing up with their rock and roll music.  How did we ever survive?



I see you have missed the point as much as George. Can't say I'm surprised.

The point is that rather than properly conditioning our soldiers to the realities of military life right at the beginning of their careers (remember that recruits were indeed packing up and going home over this), we have shifted this requirement later down the chain, to units and organization that have much more important to do.

Sure we can try and teach them when it was and was not appropriate to use such devices but it was obviously not successful. Instead of asking if there was something wrong with the people we were bringing in, we decided that what we were doing was wrong and simply hold the candidates by the hand and tell them "its OK".

We "survive", and even do well, because we do the necessary conditioning later, when it is is more expensive to fail and more of a burden on the unit that has to do it.

As for "rock & roll music"..... It doesn't matter that this was cell phones and computers. It could have been the length of the training day. If recruits were VR-ing because 8 hours of training per day was too much, would cutting it to 7 be the right solution ?


----------



## Michael OLeary

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I see you have missed the point as much as George. Can't say I'm surprised.



Well, perhaps we need you at the Recruit School to sort things out, as the only person who sees anything clearly.


----------



## Tank Troll

George Wallace said:
			
		

> How did we ever survive the COLD WAR without the Internet and Cell phones?



Memos,  O groups, and fan out lists  ;D


----------



## Tank Troll

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Wow; that's cheap. I'm used to ~2500 bucks these days (deployed of course). Were they into clearing bays?



Blank round NDs in training don't go over $195.00 because they don't want it to stay on your permanent record.($200.00 or more stays) Of course this was set back when $200.00 was a third of your pay, now most troops drop that much in a night at the club


----------



## armyvern

Tank Troll said:
			
		

> Memos,  O groups, and fan out lists  ;D



Reminds me of this time last week in KAF with no DWAN and the computers gone for everyone who was left ... can you say FMP & carbon paper?? Only us folks old enough to be carbon-dated even knew what carbon paper was ... too funny.

 >


----------



## OldSolduer

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Reminds me of this time last week in KAF with no DWAN and the computers gone for everyone who was left ... can you say FMP & carbon paper?? Only us folks old enough to be carbon-dated even knew what carbon paper was ... too funny.
> 
> >



FMP and the carbon paper (which doubled as field expedient cam) is far better than e-mailing. You don't read half teh e-mails that are sent cause everyone is sending them for everything, like birthday announcements and cr@p like that.

FMP had advantage of face to face comms -  much better than e-mails.


----------



## Michael OLeary

cypres78 said:
			
		

> The problem is this policy was implemented to cater to the weak minded individuals who couldn't even hack 4 weeks without phones. It is pathetic and it sounds like someone is trying to increase graduation numbers to pad a PER...not that things like that ever happen.  :



So, the occasional worthy recruit for whom access to a cell phone will help to avoid a family crisis not of their own making that could otherwise lead to a VR isn't important to us? They're not worth keeping because some only want to focus on this mysterious group of "weak-minded individuals" that apparently we never would have identified otherwise? We've had enough threads here discussing how our recruit base isn't all fresh-faced 18-year olds fresh out of high school with a fresh apron-string-ectomy scar; some have ongoing personal lives that they have done their best to put on hold while in training, but a little more flexibility in supporting their need to have occasional contact may ensure we keep those worth having.

It's time we stop acting like there is no possible benefit here by narrowing our view to only those we would wish to deny the capability.


----------



## armyvern

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> FMP and the carbon paper (which doubled as field expedient cam) is far better than e-mailing. You don't read half teh e-mails that are sent cause everyone is sending them for everything, like birthday announcements and cr@p like that.
> 
> FMP had advantage of face to face comms -  much better than e-mails.



I agree, but I wonder if Edward Campbell and Old Sweat knew how much they'd change the world of future operations with that carbon paper invention of theirs. What's old is new again!!

 >


----------



## armyvern

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> So, the occasional worthy recruit for whom access to a cell phone will help to avoid a family crisis not of their own making that could otherwise lead to a VR isn't important to us? They're not worth keeping because some only want to focus on this mysterious group of "weak-minded individuals" that apparently we never would have identified otherwise? We've had enough threads here discussing how our recruit base isn't all fresh-faced 18-year olds fresh out of high school with a fresh apron-string-ectomy scar; some have ongoing personal lives that they have done their best to put on hold while in training, but a little more flexibility in supporting their need to have occasional contact may ensure we keep those worth having.
> 
> It's time we stop acting like there is no possible benefit here by narrowing our view to only those we would wish to deny the capability.



If lack of a cell phone is going to CAUSE a family crisis ... sigh. What are they going to do while deployed?

See the difference between the two?

If a recruits family is already* in* a crisis not of their own making that could otherwise lead to a VR needs a phone ... he'll get one. Guaranteed; and, the CF won't even make him pay for the required calls or air time to get it sorted out.

Please, as a CSM, if one of my pers is having that much issues that are MAJOR and a CRISIS ... we have ways of assisting with such. Personal cell phone *not* required for that to happen, so let's not all sit here and pretend that it is. Reality check. I may be a dinosaur, but I am not a heartless beotch. I would assist them in an instant as would each and every other leader I know.


----------



## Hammer Sandwich

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> So, the occasional worthy recruit for whom access to a cell phone will help to avoid a family crisis not of their own making that could otherwise lead to a VR isn't important to us?



Funny enough, I had two (2) family crises arise while in the service....one on course, and then one in the field.
(Not "you didn't wash yer shirts so I'm leavin" stuff....genuine stuff)

I was reached very promptly to inform me of both these items.

_And I didn't even have a cellphone_!

And didn't VR....especially in the middle of a course.

EGADS!


----------



## GnyHwy

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> FMP had advantage of face to face comms -  much better than e-mails.



This one is funny to me, because now a days you can have a detailed face to face conversation with someone, and the end of the conversation is usually the same everytime.

Either "I'll send you an e-mail", or "you send me an e-mail", once again detailing the conversation you just had.  GAAAAAWWDDDD!!!!!!

Separate note.  I just want to add my 2 cents to the ND conversation.  The amount that a person is charged is proportional to their level of training.  Operational ready soldiers will always have more severe punishment.  Higher ranks deserve larger punishment.  Since recruits are untrained $200 seems about right to me and an argument can be made to not even charge them at all. 

How soon after learning the load, unload, ready and make safe do they get issued blank rounds?  Not a sarcastic remark; I don't know and am curious. 

Edited to add: P.S.  It's not cool to be charged anymore?  When did this happen?


----------



## Hammer Sandwich

GnyHwy said:
			
		

> How soon after learning the load, unload, ready and make safe do they get issued blank rounds?  Not a sarcastic remark; I don't know and am curious.



In my experience, (which lies somwhere between "Jack" and "shit").....we got rounds immediately.

Everything was monitored very closely, but we were bomed up with blanks.


----------



## Hammer Sandwich

Hammer Sandwich said:
			
		

> were bomBed up with blanks.



(Couldn't edit my last post)


----------



## PMedMoe

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> If lack of a cell phone is going to CAUSE a family crisis ... sigh. What are they going to do while deployed?
> 
> See the difference between the two?
> 
> If a recruits family is already* in* a crisis not of their own making that could otherwise lead to a VR needs a phone ... he'll get one. Guaranteed; and, the CF won't even make him pay for the required calls or air time to get it sorted out.
> 
> Please, as a CSM, if one of my pers is having that much issues that are MAJOR and a CRISIS ... we have ways of assisting with such. Personal cell phone *not* required for that to happen, so let's not all sit here and pretend that it is. Reality check. I may be a dinosaur, but I am not a heartless beotch. I would assist them in an instant as would each and every other leader I know.



 :goodpost:


----------



## brihard

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> I spoke with a little birdy.
> 
> The 66% greater retention rate (sounds like a big number) turned out to apparently equal 2 troops.
> The platoon involved in it was the "warrior platoon".   Electronics were taken away from a platoon of newbies who just started basic training. The platoon of warriors were allowed to keep their electronics, some of whom have been kicking around the system for a year +.
> Some people when told they were loosing their electronics, quit. (Are those the kinda soldiers we want defending Canada?)
> 
> In the end the 'do everything possible to keep these recruits in the CF' turned out to see less VRs....but more training failures. The ones who didn't belong and wanted to quit but were coerced into staying ended up passing recruit school  but failing their trades course, quitting down the road or punted out for discipline and administrative issues.



Wow. Someone never took a research methods class.

So you mean they actually trialed it on such a small scale with two very disparate groups of recruits? I'm surprised this hasn't gotten more comment.


----------



## smale436

"If lack of a cell phone is going to CAUSE a family crisis ... sigh. What are they going to do while deployed?"

I'm not a techno-geek I don't think. My cell phone is 4 years old and I have a CRT tv. I did not bring any electronics to BMQ six years ago other than a battery-powered clock. I didn't think we would be allowed the stuff at any point and it didn't really matter what the policy was as once the first weekend off came around, people invaded the mall and bought cell phones, DVD players, ipods, etc. It all came out at night but stuff still got done. In retrospect, I wish I had a camera back then as our DS never had a problem with those. Especially in the field phase where they would be in many of the photos.

As far as deployment, during 6 months in Italy for OP Mobile I was dumbstruck at some of the people and their addictions. People with 5 to 25 years of service I'm talking here. Our hotel had free wireless in the lobby but everyone bought USB-powered Tim or Wind rocket sticks for their rooms and work that never worked that great. The lobby was good enough for me the whole time but listening to the daily complaints got very old, very fast. "The stick isn't working and the Italian at the store won't refund my $ and pretends to not speak English", "my gaming is too slow", "Skype sucks and I need it as my kids don't know how to talk on the phone." I just shook my head as I thought we were very lucky to have the living conditions we had. 

Mentioning how it could be worse, like when I was a kid and was lucky to get one collect phone call per week due to the high costs, didn't seem to help them realize how internet in Europe is a lot different than back home. I remember my father telling me a story how when he travelled to Germany over 20 years ago you could not make collect calls from that country. So ten people would pile into a van and drive half an hour to a border town in France (where you can call collect) to make a 15 minute call. Hearing about that made me enjoy being "off the grid" so to speak.


----------



## 2010newbie

GnyHwy said:
			
		

> How soon after learning the load, unload, ready and make safe do they get issued blank rounds?  Not a sarcastic remark; I don't know and am curious.



On our BMOQ this past summer we were issued live rounds before blanks. We performed the weapons test in garrison at the end of the week (6??) and then went to the range the following Monday. They issued us the rounds as we walked onto the range for that specific shoot. If I remember correctly it wasn't until week 12 that we were issued blanks in the field. Our platoon staff took ND's seriously and there was one during our final exercise. That person was charged and had to pay somewhere around $150.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Brihard said:
			
		

> Wow. Someone never took a research methods class.
> 
> So you mean they actually trialed it on such a small scale with two very disparate groups of recruits? I'm surprised this hasn't gotten more comment.



This is what I am told.

The platoon to keep their electronics were the ones in the overweigh/medical broken platoon who have had access to their toys for a long timr already and the ones who had them taken away were the fresh new ones.
And percentage wise I'm told it translated into 2 extra people for that course.  I thought he said some courses can be as large as 90 troops.

I think if all of a sudden you banned electronics from the crew who had them all along you would see a large number of drop outs.  But them howard would quit or medically VR anyways.

All we accomplish with this policy is to shelter recruits
From one of the major hardships they will face down the road (and should be prepared for).


----------



## SentryMAn

It's the CF not Grade School, Less hand holding and more pushing recruits to perform better.

I did My basic 3 years ago.  We didn't have electronics available other then a camera(only 1 per section).  There were people that had things happen at home, they used the machine on the wall in the elevator rooms to talk to them, the main difference is that you weren't as comfortable as laying on your bed.

We had 4 VR's, 3 Re-courses, and 3 RTU's  NONE were due to the inability to adapt to lack of electronics.  I do see the point of the pro group, and the point of the anti group.  I still feel that Monday - Friday Electronics should be Off limits to recruits, Talk to your platoon mates rather then your buddy Johny on Facebook.  Call your Mom from the pay phone, Ask to receive mail(note there's no "E-" there).  Life after Garrison will get better, anyone can do it for 13-15 weeks.

But again in the grand scheme of things, it's at the CO's discretion, what they wish will be done.

I always wanted a course staff like "Major Payne"   ;D  But My platoon staff was amazing.


----------



## Tank Troll

SentryMAn said:
			
		

> I always wanted a course staff like "Major Payne"   ;D  But My platoon staff was amazing.



I've had a couple................and no you don't want them. 
 Most of us that have been in a while have had something go bad or happen while we were away and we dealt with it. I found out I was getting divorced in 94 while I was on tour in Bosnia. I got a couple of extra 10 minute welfare phone calls did all I could do on the phone then that was that. Having a cell phone wouldn't have made a bit of difference. Fast forward to 05 on my 6b 3weeks before Xmas and 2 weeks left in the course found out I was getting divorced again (yeah I know my track record sucks) I had a cell phone that time and spent almost all night for 2 nights trying to sort, beg, plead it out. I failled traces both days do to lack of sleep and worrying what was happening. One of my buddies was the DS and he sat me down and asked WTF was happening, I got some good advice and finished and passed the course(didn't bother phoning again). Did the cell phone help? Nope not one bit.


----------



## SentryMAn

You can imagine how my Basic was being the only Air reservist on it and my staff was all Combat arms.

We had 4 guys have long term relationships break up while they were on course, cellulars would not have helped.  I had my own issues with home life too, it puts a stress on you but as the saying goes "If it doesn't kill you it can only make you stronger".  Which I feel I am a much stronger person post then pre basic.  I just wish I hadn't released.

I suppose we can argue for/against and in each there will be lots of examples of how someone stayed in either way and became a great soldier.

I still REALLY think that there should be a mandatory class at the High School level on proper etiquette for Cellular Phone and computer use.


----------



## OldSolduer

SentryMAn said:
			
		

> I still REALLY think that there should be a mandatory class at the High School level on proper etiquette for Cellular Phone and computer use.



Not required. Lets make sure they can Read, Write and perform basic Math functions like adding, subtracting and all that boring stuff. A bit of History wouldn't hurt either.


----------



## frank1515

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Not required. Lets make sure they can Read, Write and perform basic Math functions like adding, subtracting and all that boring stuff. A bit of History wouldn't hurt either.



Agreed with Mr. Seggie (unless he's being sarcastic...) Teaching proper etiquette, manners and common sense is the job of parents, not teachers.


----------



## Jarnhamar

People tend to abuse the "I have family issues I need my cell phone on me at all times" a lot.  I've often found it's just a lie to let the member keep their cell on and on them.


----------



## OldSolduer

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> People tend to abuse the "I have family issues I need my cell phone on me at all times" a lot.  I've often found it's just a lie to let the member keep their cell on and on them.



Then anyone who plays this card needs to be interviewed by their section commander, their Pl WO, the Pl Comd, the CSM and the OC - culminating in an interview with the padre after investigation of "Family issues". If the investigation uncovers the "lie" then the offending person can - and should be - charged.



			
				frank1515 said:
			
		

> Agreed with Mr. Seggie (unless he's being sarcastic...) Teaching proper etiquette, manners and common sense is the job of parents, not teachers.


Not being sarcastic. School has enouhg  enough to do without the extra burden of teaching  numpties how to be courteus. 

Our students in Manitoba damn near bottomed out on standard tests - which tells me we have - or more correctly dunces administrating the school system.


----------



## medicineman

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> FMP and the carbon paper (which doubled as field expedient cam) is far better than e-mailing. You don't read half teh e-mails that are sent cause everyone is sending them for everything, like birthday announcements and cr@p like that.
> 
> FMP had advantage of face to face comms -  much better than e-mails.



I seem to remember doing all my adreps in the field by that method for years...still have a few of them lying around in my FMP from Haiti IIRC.  And I don't remember how many times someone in the same office as me sent me an e-mail for something that really demanded them looking at me and saying "Hey MM ...  :blah:" or wandering that 50ft down the hall or even just picking up the phone and saying "I'm coming over, or please come here or just meet me out in the smoke pit in 5".  I guess face to face comms these days is Skype or other equivalent, even for someone in the same cubicle cell  :.

 :2c:

MM


----------



## George Wallace

GnyHwy said:
			
		

> This one is funny to me, because now a days you can have a detailed face to face conversation with someone, and the end of the conversation is usually the same everytime.
> 
> Either "I'll send you an e-mail", or "you send me an e-mail", once again detailing the conversation you just had.  GAAAAAWWDDDD!!!!!!



email is the "new" carbon paper.


----------



## George Wallace

frank1515 said:
			
		

> Agreed with Mr. Seggie (unless he's being sarcastic...) Teaching proper etiquette, manners and common sense is the job of parents, not teachers.



Some people just can't live without someone to talk to all the time.  I often wonder why anyone would go to a movie if all they are going to do in the theatre is sit and chat or text on their cell phone.  Yes, many people have to learn proper etiquette.  Many more really should learn that they do not have to be in constant communications with someone else at all times, in all places.  When Bluetooth first arrived, I was under the impression that the Lunie Bin had released all their inmates and they were now walking around the grocery aisles muttering to themselves.  Crap!   People can't even go shopping without talking on a cell phone.

If some Trooper were to sit in my OP and chat/text on a Cell Phone instead of silently observing, they would be charged......In the Turkish Army, they would likely be shot.


----------



## Swingline1984

Stacked said:
			
		

> ...and a group of quality recruits still was produced.



That is subjective.  Some of my worst soldiers often speak of their "quality", being unable to see (or accept) their own shortcomings.  No one is saying the troops themselves are junk (although some may be, and time will tell), only that their potential is not tapped or tested until later down the stream because of concessions like these.  If we don't measure these individuals limitations in basic how can we expect them to perform in the real world?  This (in my mind) is bigger than just cell phones to call home or ND's being treated as something that just happens to everyone.  How many times do I need to run over my wife with the car before someone decides that my drivers training was insufficient?  I would by no means ever hold myself up as the example of perfection, but, I would expect that the soldiers I get on my end at the very least have a basic respect for the CoC, don't question orders and can polish their boots.  If they question everything, hold the leadership in contempt, and can't be bothered to turn up in the morning looking presentable that downloads a lot of responsibility to me and my subordinate leaders to deal with; issues that should have been slapped out of them in basic training.  No the sky is not falling but everyday feels more and more like this:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/103733.0.html


----------



## HItorMiss

Stacked said:
			
		

> We were a bunch of brand new people.  Work still got done, we still bonded as a team, and a group of quality recruits still was produced.




Your opinion and that of your instructors vary....

When they say teamwork and overall standard suffered I'll take their word over you the former recruits word in an heartbeat.


----------



## SentryMAn

Swingline1984 said:
			
		

> That is subjective.  Some of my worst soldiers often speak of their "quality", being unable to see (or accept) their own shortcomings.  No one is saying the troops themselves are junk (although some may be, and time will tell), only that their potential is not tapped or tested until later down the stream because of concessions like these.  If we don't measure these individuals limitations in basic how can we expect them to perform in the real world?  This (in my mind) is bigger than just cell phones to call home or ND's being treated as something that just happens to everyone.  How many times do I need to run over my wife with the car before someone decides that my drivers training was insufficient?  I would by no means ever hold myself up as the example of perfection, but, I would expect that the soldiers I get on my end at the very least have a basic respect for the CoC, don't question orders and can polish their boots.  If they question everything, hold the leadership in contempt, and can't be bothered to turn up in the morning looking presentable that downloads a lot of responsibility to me and my subordinate leaders to deal with; issues that should have been slapped out of them in basic training.  No the sky is not falling but everyday feels more and more like this:
> 
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/103733.0.html



THANK YOU for that great laugh from the video!


----------



## HItorMiss

Stacked

Let me be clear, you believe you are a quality product, I do not dispute you might be. What I question is how much better you and your Platoon mates could have been. Your own Instructors told the CO the "standard" suffered that is the issue I have.


----------



## Precept

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> Stacked
> 
> Let me be clear, you believe you are a quality product, I do not dispute you might be. What I question is how much better you and your Platoon mates could have been. Your own Instructors told the CO the "standard" suffered that is the issue I have.



What's the difference, he wouldn't have lived up to my standard anyway. Am I right, or am I right!?

(Stacked, glad to see you made it through the Mega in one piece. Even if you did have a Hollywood Platoon who got to play with their toys all day long. Enjoy Kingston, hopefully it's more entertaining than Borden and Petawawa!)


----------



## jasonf6

Precept said:
			
		

> What's the difference, he wouldn't have lived up to my standard anyway. Am I right, or am I right!?
> 
> (Stacked, glad to see you made it through the Mega in one piece. Even if you did have a Hollywood Platoon who got to play with their toys all day long. Enjoy Kingston, hopefully it's more entertaining than Borden and Petawawa!)



Hey!  What's wrong with Petawawa?


----------



## SentryMAn

jasonf6 said:
			
		

> Hey!  What's wrong with Petawawa?



That question would be better asked as "What's Right with Petawaw?"

LOL


----------



## estoguy

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Not required. Lets make sure they can Read, Write and perform basic Math functions like adding, subtracting and all that boring stuff. A bit of History wouldn't hurt either.



I agree with Mr. Seggie.  I'm a supply teacher at the moment, and a lot of "basic" stuff has been ignored, and now we are reaping that.  And more than a bit of history... might get me some more work!    

A lot of admin are very weak-kneed people.  They can't even deal with issues at the school level and have to turn to the board for stupid things like comments made in a classroom by a teacher.  FFS... if you can't deal with that on your own, how on earth do they deal with mouthy kids?  The answer is they really don't.  They talk to little Johnny or Mary and tut-tut them, and that's pretty much it.  Gone are the days where kids had a healthy amount of respect (and maybe even a little fear) of those in charge.

Any definitive word as to how these rules are changing things yet?  Do the instructors like/dislike it?


----------



## SentryMAn

estoguy said:
			
		

> I agree with Mr. Seggie.  I'm a supply teacher at the moment, and a lot of "basic" stuff has been ignored, and now we are reaping that.  And more than a bit of history... might get me some more work!
> 
> A lot of admin are very weak-kneed people.  They can't even deal with issues at the school level and have to turn to the board for stupid things like comments made in a classroom by a teacher.  FFS... if you can't deal with that on your own, how on earth do they deal with mouthy kids?  The answer is they really don't.  They talk to little Johnny or Mary and tut-tut them, and that's pretty much it.  Gone are the days where kids had a healthy amount of respect (and maybe even a little fear) of those in charge.



You're into a whole other can of worms with this, and I'll just leave it like this, it all starts at home, teach your kids respect by SHOWING them respect and chances are they will in reality as well.

My Mother was a Teacher for 33 years and saw the changes from being able to teach her way to the new "no one loses" and saw the grades and aptitude drop off significantly.


----------



## armyvern

Stacked said:
			
		

> That's fine. You're entitled to that.



Sure he is.

I'll tend to side with the instructors themsleves who actually have prior standards knowledge visibility and experience from one group to another to make their comparisons.

It's all too easy to believe that one's personal group was fine because there's an inherent bias there.

When one has instructed both groups (the haves and the have nots) and can see the difference between the two ... they have more credibility in my books.


----------



## Journeyman

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Sure he is.


I'd agree with ArmyVern.......except that I avoid the Recruiting threads; reading them diminishes my hopes for the military's -- and Canadian society's -- future.


----------



## m.k

I start at CFLRS on Jan 30th and I believe that this policy change will affect performance and standards in an indirect manner. I do not believe there will be many candidates so pre-occupied with the outside world and social networking that they will shirk duties and spend an inappropriate amount of time on their devices, however I do believe that the ability to access electronics during the indoc period and weekdays in the remaining weeks will prevent candidates from truly focusing, 100% on the course material. As someone stated above, one second or one minute spent thinking about this picture or that facebook status or this text message from a girlfriend/boyfriend/husband/wife/friend/sister/brother/mistress/mother/father/anyone is less time spent thinking about the course. 

I thought the whole point of basic training (among other things) was to be cut off from the outside world?


----------



## Snaketnk

Hey, how knows? Maybe this'll have the opposite effect everyone's expecting; maybe candidates will learn to be super efficient so they can have time to play with their gadgets with peace of mind knowing everything is done and to standard?


----------



## HItorMiss

Snaketnk said:
			
		

> Hey, how knows? Maybe this'll have the opposite effect everyone's expecting; maybe candidates will learn to be super efficient so they can have time to play with their gadgets with peace of mind knowing everything is done and to standard?



And the sky is what colour in your world?   ;D


----------



## Armymedic

Snaketnk said:
			
		

> Hey, how knows? Maybe this'll have the opposite effect everyone's expecting; maybe candidates will learn to be super efficient so they can have time to play with their gadgets with peace of mind knowing everything is done and to standard?





			
				BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> And the sky is what colour in your world?   ;D



I go with BM on this. Every study, scientific or not, points directly at an overall decrease in work productivity when the social use of "gadgets" are introduced. It is very hard to argue that a standard was set many years ago when there only distractions at Basic were your Section mates, the occasional bible, and if your were lucky enough to get one, the effects of the Saturday night hangover, would not be adversely effected by the additions of items which cause distractions from the myriad of tasks you are required to complete to maintain the highest levels of that standard.

It is a sad day in my heart though when I hear a troop who is proud that they just met the standard. I guess we are accepting now of people who just want to be ordinary or average. Lets how our future enemies are not looking to set their standards too high.

But, the base issue of all of this is that we are a changing society, and with it the organization we are employed within must also change with that society.


----------



## Robert0288

Cell phone jammer anyone? >


----------



## jaolt1

Rc'vd this email the other day and I thought it fits in well with a lot of the comments posted earlier.

An obituary printed in the London Times....Absolutely Brilliant!!!

Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense, who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was, since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape. He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as:
       -Knowing when to come in out of the rain;
       -Why the early bird gets the worm;
       -Life isn't always fair;
       -and maybe it was my fault.

Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies ( don't spend more than you earn) and reliable stratagies ( adults, not children, are in charge).

His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well-intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a six year old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition.

Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job that they themselves had failed to do in disciplining unruly children.
It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer sun lotion or an aspirin to a student; but could not inform parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion.

Common Sense lost the will to live as the churches became businesses; and criminals received better treatment than their victims.
Common Sense took a beating when you couldn't defend yourself froma burglar in your own home and the burglar could sue you for assault.
Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement.

Common Sense was preceded in death, by his parents, Truth and Trust, by his wife, Discretion, by his daughter, Responsibility, and by his son, Reason.

He is survived by his 4 stepbrothers;
I Know My Rights
I Want It Now
Someone Else Is To Blame
I'm A Victim

Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone.


----------



## DexOlesa

I am going to come at this from a different angle. I know the policy was thought up as a way to lower VR rates which is the wrong reason to implement the policy I agree. However, try and think of it in these terms: As several have stated there are banks of pay phones to use as they themselves at times used on course. So no one is saying that calling home every once in a while is a bad thing, but that all the additional parts of cell phones these days (games, social apps, etc.) will be an unnecessary distraction. Now most of the people talking about the pay phone banks admit that it was a time when most people did not have cell phones anyway. So my thought is, you didn't have cell phones back then so a pay phone and a phone card was your only option. These days new recruits/ candidates are already paying 50 to 100 a month for a cell phone, they have them there, letting them have access to a phone that they have already paid for keeps them from needing to spend more unnecessary money on pay phones and phone cards. As an ex candidate whose sole reason for being "Ex" is financial woes. I can appreciate that.


----------



## PuckChaser

There's no problem letting them have the phones in the shacks, but thats where they should stay. Locked up in your room for before and after training.

Its another topic, but I don't get why you'd quit a job that paid for your university and gave you a salary for financial woes....  :facepalm:


----------



## DexOlesa

Cause $500 a month doesn't pay my bills. I also agree that they should be locked in shacks till after hours and weekends, but some here think even that is too lenient.


----------



## armyvern

You must have served eons ago. Even back in 88 when I went through, I made 262 every pay in basic. I wasn't an officer; that was 524 per month ... and my living quarters and rations were covered throughout. I called from pay phones --- we got one 5 minute phone call once per week. I lived.

After week 4, we had access to the vending machines (for the first time) and the pay phones more often. It was nice, but most often were utilized only on the weekends because during the week were were just to f'n bagged by the time the learning, weapons handling, weapons cleaning (a nightly ritual for us), kit & quarters, etc etc was done. But, perhaps we were tired because we walked/marched no where. We ran (in combat boots egads!!) every place, every time.

Basic is MEANT to place personnel under high stress levels in an uncomfortable enviornment with which they are not familiar. It is meant to instill in them the instinct to adapt to the high pace of "too much to get done, but not enough to do it" by them working together as a team to get the essentials down, get the "too much" done and to get it done properly and at a very high standard. React and work well under very stressful conditions --- that's what war is all about and, like it or not, that is what this particular outfit exists for. Foundation blocks.

What's up these days that recruits seem to have all this free-time on their hands?? That tells me that either the level of the standard they are "meeting" is down or the day now has greater than 24 hours in it. Who knew?


----------



## DexOlesa

I did BMOQ this summer. An RMC Cadet takes home $500 a month after they deduct everything away.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Vending machines??.....not in 1978. Everything else Vern said sounds about right.


----------



## OldSolduer

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Vending machines??.....not in 1978. Everything else Vern said sounds about right.



Vern is pretty much on the money.

In 1975 we had vending machines for pop in plastic cups. Pay phones as well.

And stone tablets, a hammer and chisel to write home with......


----------



## armyvern

DexOlesa said:
			
		

> I did BMOQ this summer. An RMC Cadet takes home $500 a month after they deduct everything away.



So, you were making 500 bucks a month spending money for attending University full time and your meals and quarters and education and books were already covered. Plus that time was going towards a pension.

Some average Canadian kids would kill for that particular deal. It certainly doesn't seem too shabby to me.

You were much better off than they were, what with them having to work a job at night/weekends, when they could have been studying, to pay their tuition, rent, food bills et al.

Perhaps, it's a generational thing, but I'm not feeling too sypathetic. It just seems to me that this generation can be spoon fed up the hilt, but still believe they are "owed" and "entitled" to more.


----------



## armyvern

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Vern is pretty much on the money.
> 
> In 1975 we had vending machines for pop in plastic cups. Pay phones as well.
> 
> And stone tablets, a hammer and chisle to writh home with......



You are old!! Back when there was still Coke in Coke. Wow.


----------



## OldSolduer

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> You are old!! Back when there was still Coke in Coke. Wow.



Why do I allow myself to be drawn into these things? :facepalm:

 LOL - we cleared 130 every 15 days, 260 per month.


----------



## DexOlesa

Having $50,000 in debt from prior schooling makes $500 a month insufficient. I agree that for a debt free 18 year old fresh out of high school its an amazing deal. However I decided to return to my first career and have an actual paycheque.


----------



## armyvern

DexOlesa said:
			
		

> Having $50,000 in debt from prior schooling makes $500 a month insufficient. I agree that for a debt free 18 year old fresh out of high school its an amazing deal. However I decided to return to my first career and have an actual paycheque.



Understood. Your original post makes it seems as if the CF and your schooling within was the cause of your financial woes; I see that's not the case.

I just deployed for 9.5 months ... and dropped my cell phone down to the basics while I was gone as I wouldn't be using it. It cost me 9 bucks a month to do so; surely to hell a recruit could even manage to get that little bit of fiscal management correct when in St. Jean for a mere 10 weeks?


----------



## DexOlesa

I'm just trying to play devils advocate on the cell phone thing. I personally don't see a problem with weekend cell phone use, and as long as the recruits are sticking to that then there is really little need to confiscate them in my opinion. Now if the recruits can't be trusted to abide by that and use some discretion and common sense then yes, confiscate away. Also, not a problem Vern. I went in knowing the pay was low, but what they fail to mention is that when they say "Everything is covered" they mean its covered by deducting it from your pay ($600 a month for food etc.)


----------



## OldSolduer

Our issue CF wide is that we don't seem to want to hold an individual accountable. Example - last year at a dinner three troops went downtown in DEU and got reported by another military member as being rowdy and drunk and a disgrace to the CF. 
The military member reported it directly to a person outside our troops chain of command (reported to a CWO.)

Now the rule is that you aren't allowed downtown after a function in DEUs. I disagreed and told them we should investigate incidents and hold those persons accountable.
It won't be that way in the future.

And it should be the same for recruits - punish the ones that don't perform.


----------



## krustyrl

I agree Jim but it's the CF way, punish everyone , we certainly wouldn't want to have someone or an individual stand out and be made an example of.


----------



## Precept

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I just deployed for 9.5 months ... and dropped my cell phone down to the basics while I was gone as I wouldn't be using it. It cost me 9 bucks a month to do so; surely to hell a recruit could even manage to get that little bit of fiscal management correct when in St. Jean for a mere 10 weeks?



Depending on the carrier you can actually get them to stop service on the phone. Meaning they cut off your service and you don't have to pay for the number of months you ask. Then you don't have to do what you described. Call them up when you're ready and they will continue service and billing cycle from that day. You can do it with internet providers too, and probably TV if you had the right company. Just a thought.


----------



## armyvern

Precept said:
			
		

> Depending on the carrier you can actually get them to stop service on the phone. Meaning they cut off your service and you don't have to pay for the number of months you ask. Then you don't have to do what you described. Call them up when you're ready and they will continue service and billing cycle from that day. You can do it with internet providers too, and probably TV if you had the right company. Just a thought.



I understand that. I spoke with them; with my carrier --- I could pause service for the minimal fee without paying the full contract price, but the months paid at minimum still counted towards my contract time. Or I could have killed it for nothing while I was gone, but still owed them 10 months at full price when I restarted.


----------



## Ayrsayle

From my limited experience, I think the main push behind allowing cell phone use is one of maintaining morale - For most of us on our DEO BMOQ, we all have families and external considerations. We had no electronic use for the first 5 weeks and were slowly given more and more freedoms with them as our performance improved. There were/are, of course, some who spend way to much time on their phones and as a result failed tests/performance/physical fitness requirements and were either re-coursed or dismissed from the forces. Seems like the system is already set up to deal with those who can't manage their time.

Is it a distraction? Undeniably so - if the candidate can't manage his time. Something to consider however is that Basic itself now has mandated "distractions" anyway - Movie nights are mandatory for the first 5 weeks, we are instructed to take breaks, and I get constantly harassed by staff all the time for spending my weekends on base polishing boots or packing for the field. I simply scheduled my boot polishing time as time I could also spend talking with the wife via bluetooth. Performance stayed close to the same while still keeping the home life happy.

Again, the issue comes down to maturity of the recruits/cadets rather then the electronics themselves.


----------



## fauntania

I don't see how you could take home $500 a month as an officer cadet.  I mean, the pay scale for regular force NCM's is $2,663 gross for the month.  The math is just not making sense to me.


----------



## Ayrsayle

fauntania said:
			
		

> I don't see how you could take home $500 a month as an officer cadet.  I mean, the pay scale for regular force NCM's is $2,663 gross for the month.  The math is just not making sense to me.



Probably referring to Cadets at RMC - they are paid on a different scale then Reg Force DEO Cadets. A first year RMC Cadet is only making 1487, subtract room and board (i assume around 600), plus others and 500ish doesn't seem unreasonable.


----------



## GnyHwy

Ayrsayle said:
			
		

> From my limited experience, I think the main push behind allowing cell phone use is one of maintaining morale - For most of us on our DEO BMOQ, we all have families and external considerations. We had no electronic use for the first 5 weeks and were slowly given more and more freedoms with them as our performance improved. There were/are, of course, some who spend way to much time on their phones and as a result failed tests/performance/physical fitness requirements and were either re-coursed or dismissed from the forces. Seems like the system is already set up to deal with those who can't manage their time.
> 
> Is it a distraction? Undeniably so - if the candidate can't manage his time. Something to consider however is that Basic itself now has mandated "distractions" anyway - Movie nights are mandatory for the first 5 weeks, we are instructed to take breaks, and I get constantly harassed by staff all the time for spending my weekends on base polishing boots or packing for the field. I simply scheduled my boot polishing time as time I could also spend talking with the wife via bluetooth. Performance stayed close to the same while still keeping the home life happy.
> 
> Again, the issue comes down to maturity of the recruits/cadets rather then the electronics themselves.



Everything you have said makes complete sense, and it sounds like your approach to training was very good; unfortunately, you are not the norm.  One slight disagree is the comment about re-course and dismissal if they can't manage their time or are immature.  I don't believe anyone is or should expect that from recruits; they haven't been taught yet, and in a lot of cases, they are just 2 weeks past having their parents organize their time for them.  Mature and organized recruits would be a bonus, not the norm.

If all it takes is a firm prodding and strict control of their gadgets then these recruits who don't know how to manage time yet could be taught properly.  Expecting them to be mature and organized from the outset would be naive on the CF's part.

BTW, I would be fine with gadgets from day 1.  Just not during works hours and for only an hour or so in the evening.  I believe this would strike the balance, where good students would still get their time and use it wisely, and the not so good students would be restricted.


----------



## DexOlesa

> BTW, I would be fine with gadgets from day 1.  Just not during works hours and for only an hour or so in the evening.  I believe this would strike the balance, where good students would still get their time and use it wisely, and the not so good students would be restricted.



This was in essence how our course staff worked it


----------



## armyvern

krustyrl said:
			
		

> I agree Jim but it's the CF way, punish everyone , we certainly wouldn't want to have someone or an individual stand out and be made an example of.



Well, from experience, I'd call BS on that. I make a habit of holding those accountable who deserve to be held such and I don't personally know of any supervisors who harken to 'collective' punishment as a habit. Let me be clear, I am not averse to 'collective' punishment when warranted, but it's very rare.

I'd like to know what Units you've served with, and where, to see if I can begin to believe that your statement above reflects "your" reality.


----------



## spacedude98

Although I'm on the fence of this since I will be just starting up BMQ in January, I like it because me and my girlfriend are expecting our first child in march and I will be away. That is the only upside I can think of this rule change, other then that I don't think your facebook or twitter or what ever is that important.


----------



## Tank Troll

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Well, from experience, I'd call BS on that. I make a habit of holding those accountable who deserve to be held such and I don't personally know of any supervisors who harken to 'collective' punishment as a habit. Let me be clear, I am not averse to 'collective' punishment when warranted, but it's very rare.
> 
> I'd like to know what Units you've served with, and where, to see if I can begin to believe that your statement above reflects "your" reality.



At some of the schools I've taught at, collective punishment for the course is the norm, how ever I've never seen it at a regiment or unit. Though when I was in Recce Sqn in the Strats it seemed like we were being collectively punished on a number of occasions


----------



## Jarnhamar

For the first 4 or 5 weeks take electronic devices away. Members get them on the weekends if they get the weekends off.
After 5 weeks members can earn them or something. If members get caught breaking the rule hiding cell phones or whatever then they loose their weekends.

We have like battalion sized MIR and recourse platoons.  The higher ups need to realize that the CF should be a competitive organization and there are a LOT of people wanting to get in. There is no shortage of people who want to join us, there are very long line ups and even longer wait lists.  Healthy in shape physically fit people. It seems like a lot of the recruits we're getting are weak, have a big sense of entitlement, problems at home etc..   In Borden listening to their instructors point out all the troops that shouldn't be there but manage to tenaciously hang on to loop holes and work the system was really disappointing.

The more we let in people that can't disconnect from xbox the internet and all things electronic the more we will deal with troops trying to blow off exercises coming up with fake home problems faking injuries and other silly excuses.

We're not training these guys and girls to be resilient we're training them to look for chances to take a knee.

Some of us still set bad examples. Leaving Montfort in Ottawa I saw a young captain walking towards me along the sidewalk. She was talking on a cell phone with a briefcase in the other so I just checked my arms instead of saluting/ I'm not even sure what she did but she attempted to do something and I heard her cell bounce off the ground as I passed.

Being an instructor at a recruit school really doesn't sound appealing at all.


----------



## SentryMAn

DexOlesa said:
			
		

> I did BMOQ this summer. An RMC Cadet takes home $500 a month after they deduct everything away.



RMC = Free tuition, Free Books, they deduct money for Lodging from your $1487/month.

So you exit your studies with a highly regarded Education from a great school, zero debt(unless you were foolish enough to rack up Credit card or buy cars, etc), had to "live" on $500 a month spending money, have 3/4 years of pension accumulated and a job to enter into where you make close to 30% more then a DEO entrant.

I would be crying a river of tears to fill the Niagra Falls twice over that too.

I too would have chosen the 6 years and $60-65,000 in debt, paying for Room/Board out of my own pocket that's substandard, working 20-50 hrs a week while trying to maintain a decent GPA while graduating with a Degree and NO job prospects past saying "Ya'll want to up size for $.79 more?"

There were MANY Months I lived on less then $500 in my pocket, including paying rent/food/entertainment.

 :

I'd love to tell you it was 15-20 years ago, but I graduated in 2005, so it's not ancient history at all.


----------



## DexOlesa

As I said. It is a great deal if you are fresh out of high school and debt free. I however was not I had already racked up $50,000 in debt from prior schooling, etc. My monthly payments between everything are $700+


----------



## SentryMAn

DexOlesa said:
			
		

> As I said. It is a great deal if you are fresh out of high school and debt free. I however was not I had already racked up $50,000 in debt from prior schooling, etc. My monthly payments between everything are $700+



_ bad decisions on ones part to rack up debt should have been thought about when said debt was being racked up_.  <-- this wasn't meant to be directed at a person but more of a general statement. 

DEO entrant makes 3644/month.  That should give you enough to pay all your bills, living expenses and still have enough left to enjoy yourself.  Not to 
mention if you were SMART and had all your correct paperwork you would have been exempt from paying the Meals and Lodging(as I was).


Not a personal attack, please do not take it as such.


----------



## ballz

How's the world look up there from that pedestal SentryMAN? Is it hard to see everything when you have to look down your nose at it?

I see from your profile you've made a decision or two that you'd like to take back as well. Maybe you should give that a thought or two before you go telling someone else what decisions they should have made. :


----------



## SentryMAn

ballz said:
			
		

> How's the world look up there from that pedestal SentryMAN? Is it hard to see everything when you have to look down your nose at it?
> 
> I see from your profile you've made a decision or two that you'd like to take back as well. Maybe you should give that a thought or two before you go telling someone else what decisions they should have made. :



???
I don't see where I told the user their decisions were wrong?  Now I'll say this if it's $50k in student loans and they don't have anything to show for it then yes, I would say that's a whole hearted bad decision as anyone with a brain in their head woudl also say.  I also understand that debt isn't always the result of poor decisions(although even a bad marriage is the results of poor decisions...lol).

I think you missed the part where I stated I was explaining that I was in the same situation so I'll clarify a bit.  I walked into the forces with 50k in student loans and a Degree, I was paid as a 2Lt while on BMOQ.  I was able to do it and live a life that was alright for me.  You took what I said out of Context and read with a different meaning then the way I put it.  I Even paid for an apartment and family, bills, and Loans while away.

There was never a point where I climbed up on any "pedestal" nor did I look down my nose at anyone, sorry you feel that way.  But I see from YOUR Profile that you know everything and anything about other users, and have a ton of Military Experience being an untrained Ocdt.


----------



## DexOlesa

Well seeing as I was a career pilot before I joined, (hence the school debt) and am one again. I do have something to show for it. Just not a degree that would allow for DEO. I would love to be a DEO entrant making 3500 but I was an RMC ROTP student where they charge you $700 a month room and board non negotiable out of your 1487 a month gross, add in taxes, ei, etc. etc. you get 258 a paycheque.


----------



## MJP

:goodpost:  Was meant for ballz's post you dudes type to fast.

I would reel in a bit sentry.  DexOlesa has rationalized and explained his decision in this thread.  That you choose to ignore that and make a broad brush holier than thou statements only further highlights your ignorance.   To often in today's society folks bemoan their massive educational loans and think they need to be given a break (occupiers I am looking at you).  Here is a person who has realized their debt and is making an honest effort to pay it off.  They realized that their current job made that fiscally impossible and made the incredibly hard decision to release for higher paying pastures.  I think as hard as it probably was it was the right decision.





			
				SentryMAn said:
			
		

> I think you missed the part where I stated I was explaining that I was in the same situation so I'll clarify a bit.  I walked into the forces with 50k in student loans and a Degree, I was paid as a 2Lt while on BMOQ.



Right you were a 2lt for how long?  Not very if you were DEO.  Dex was an OCDT at RMC, where he would have remained at Ocdt level pay for a much longer period.  Not so conducive over a longer time period for paying off loans. 



> You took what I said out of Context and read with a different meaning then the way I put it.  I Even paid for an apartment and family, bills, and Loans while away.


 
 Maybe you should put things into context


----------



## ballz

SentryMAn said:
			
		

> I don't see where I told the user their decisions were wrong?



Wasn't you that wrote this then? 



			
				SentryMAn said:
			
		

> Well bad decisions on your part to rack up debt should have been thought about when the debt was being racked up.



Sorry for bothering you then.

EDIT: To remove some stuff


----------



## SentryMAn

I'll bow out of this argument now as it is un-winnable for either side.

Back on topic, electronics during at least the Indoc period should be limited.


----------



## Scott

SentryMan,

Wind your neck in a bit, k? 

Staff


----------



## SentryMAn

Many Apologies to anyone that took offense to what I posted, Re-reading it I do see where it went wrong.  Thus is the life of attempting to supply ample information over the internet in the least amount of time possible.  Parts are missed, connotation is absent, tone is missed which was my biggest mistake.

I would never and have never issued a personal attack against another user and I apologize deeply if my typed words were taking personally.

It was not my intention to rile up the crowd, I have immense respect for those who serve, have serve and are waiting to serve, it's why I'm here and why I'm trying to be part of.


----------



## Scott

Hey, from a gy at CFLRS right now:



			
				Mudshuvel said:
			
		

> Thanks Stacked.
> 
> Hey Scott. I have no problem with the tech issues. Our staff is pretty lenient on allowing us to have our cells (performance allowing for them), etc, and when we didn't have that I could use the payphones to call my wife and kids. I could cope well with or without.



Why something not broke got fixed I have no clue.

I sometimes find myself wondering how in the hell I managed to get into the Mo, off for Basic, managed to keep a semi sane girlfriend throughout, all without the benefit of Army.ca, Facebook or a frigging mobile phone.


----------



## GAP

Scott said:
			
		

> I sometimes find myself wondering how in the hell I managed to get into the Mo, off for Basic, managed to keep a semi sane girlfriend throughout, all without the benefit of Army.ca, Facebook or a frigging mobile phone.



We have evidence of how you coped ............and cookies too!!!  ;D


----------



## Scott

GAP said:
			
		

> We have evidence of how you coped ............and cookies too!!!  ;D



I garnered a few less than flattering nicknames for coping by attention seeking from the DS ;D


----------



## megany

One benefit to this policy is that there is quite the disparity between platoons in training at the Mega.  Some platoons show up on day one and can keep electronics, others have them removed immediately, etc.  There is no policy in place to ensure equal treatment between platoons.  On my latest platoon there was also an obvious lack of communication between staff which made things incredibly difficult for us to know what was and wasn't allowed - a clear policy will be a huge benefit because it removes the uncertainty.

I was on the "broken" platoon and was able to see a lot of people loaded onto different courses.  One platoon was banned from using payphones, except for five minutes per week, after they complained to the padre that they were banned from the Friday night chapel.  Their sister platoon, meanwhile, had their cell phones, etc. from day one.  

On my last platoon, we didn't have our cell phones for the first few weeks yet our sister platoons did.  A clear, comprehensive policy that wasn't left to the whims of staff would probably help recruits feel that things are more equitable.

I understand that life isn't fair, the military isn't fair, etc. but I think that a lot of the frustrations expressed by recruits stem from what is perceived as an inherent unfairness.  I was on a platoon that allowed cell phones and one that didn't.  To be honest, the one that allowed cell phones was a much better group than the other... but I honestly don't think that cell phones was the deciding factor.  What having cell phones did is give recruits privacy - without them, we knew far too much about people on our platoon (financial troubles, disintegrating relationships, etc.).

That Warrior platoon, the one in the original study, had a member who was caught playing with his Sony PSP (hand held video game system) after lights out.  I'm also fairly certain that they lost electronics privileges at least once.


----------



## RCDtpr

What these recruits need to learn is that "inherent unfairness" is a fact of life in the military and they won't always have course staff and padres to bitch and moan to.  Case in point, overseas my troop had to live in hard OP's, sleeping in the dirt and eating rations for over 3 months straight.  The other troop in our sqn was living out of FOB's.  By the logic of these new "soldiers," that isn't fair and my troop should have complained that we were treated differently.

My god, I've only got 5 years in and the differences in attitudes from the younger troops from when I joined are staggering.......in a bad way.


----------



## chrisf

megsy said:
			
		

> What having cell phones did is give recruits privacy - without them, we knew far too much about people on our platoon (financial troubles, disintegrating relationships, etc.).



Welcome to the military, where you *will* know far more about your co-workers then you ever have in any job before.


----------



## aesop081

megsy said:
			
		

> What having cell phones did is give recruits privacy - without them, we knew far too much about people on our platoon (financial troubles, disintegrating relationships, etc.).



Yet, you folks are always in such a hurry to create a Facebook group and get to know eachother right away.  :

The rest of your "but its not fair" post.........I weep for the CF's future.

You folks will get a hard dose of reality soon enough.


----------



## zerosum

CDN Aviator,

If you were to assign blame for the new policy, who would you blame?

1) Some staff, who allowed electronics from the get go - because, I'm guessing, their own empathy.

2) The recruits, who would and should take every bone thrown to them.

I'm thinking the recruits don't set the standards.


----------



## aesop081

zerosum said:
			
		

> I'm thinking the recruits don't set the standards.



I never said recruits were setting the standard.


----------



## zerosum

CDN Aviator,

Sorry - I didn't think I was putting words in your mouth. 

I've come to expect people to justify stuff they like ... electronics for privacy for example.

I was sincere in my question - who do you blame?


----------



## aesop081

zerosum said:
			
		

> I was sincere in my question - who do you blame?



Everyone.

The candidates who VR because they cant spend 5 weeks without their toys and the CF for giving in to them in the name of a lower VR rate.


----------



## zerosum

"The candidates who VR because they cant spend 5 weeks without their toys ... "

There are always going to be those. If the military were to offer free toys 2 months before basic ... there would be those that VR because they weren't offered 3 months before.


----------



## aesop081

zerosum said:
			
		

> There are always going to be those. If the military were to offer free toys 2 months before basic ... there would be those that VR because they weren't offered 3 months before.



So why cater to them ? We're not hurting...........


----------



## MAJONES

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> So why cater to them ? We're not hurting...........


Institutional inertia.  A few years ago we couldn't get enough people in the door.  The economy was good so the CF had to compete with lots of other employers for a portion of the labour pool.  Combine that with the growth the CF was undergoing at the time and there was a real squeeze on CFRG (to which CFLRS belongs) to get things done.  That lead to the mindset we are seeing right now.  
The aforementioned mindset will ta ke time to catch up to the new ground rules.  When it does perhaps we will see some policy changes?


----------



## Maxadia

Okay, I tried to read through the entire thing, but at page six I realized that the horse had been dead for a few pages.

I tend to side with Mr. O'Leary and Mr. Seggie.  First, as a school teacher, I deal with this on a daily basis. For those of you wishing to go back in time, I'd just like to let you know that I'm never getting my chalkboards back either - that change is here to stay, and PEDs are as well.  Mike is correct - we need to teach the proper etiquette for using these devices. Jim is also correct - there shouldn't be a problem allowing them to have their devices, and if there is corrective discipline needs to be enforced to make sure it doesn't happen twice. Students do NOT want to take their phones out in my class - that'a the environment I have set up.

Is liquor banned for the entire 13  weeks?  Because we'll have 80% of the class hammered each day?  No women allowed, because all the male recruits won't be able to concentrate? 

You've been handed a decision - now go figure out how to work within that decision.  Some of my students were not very happy with being allowed their phones on them during class , because they now knew I had that many more chances to remove it from them as they have a specific set of rules to follow.

They have their PEDs now - suck it up and deal with the ones who can't use them properly.  That's the problem to deal with, not the fact that a decision passed by you, will not change, and no amount of complaining is going to reverse it. 

Adapt and change, my friends.


----------



## vehtech

As I am on my third weekend of reserve BMQ I believe I have a position to comment from. First off I was fully expecting to have to go without my smart phone for BMQ. As I am 40 years old and have lived longer without one, then with one, this wasn't going to be a big deal for me regardless.  Prior to BMQ I have seen people litterally go through withdrawl symptoms similar to crack addicts by simply depriving them of their devices, be it an iPod or cell phone........and that is just sad.  I liked the idea that my course mates would be unplugged and more likely to spend off time making new friends that in turn would sponsor team work.
So did I find a room with 30 plus people with "i" thingies controlling their every move? Do I see a group of rebels texting their girlfriends when the class teacher (insert rank) isn't looking? Do I see the recruits focus waning due to the ease of access to their electronic gizmos?   The answer to these and all other concerns mentioned before is NO. Will there be, sure, someone will at some point, forget to turn the ringer off and get a call in the middle of drill.  Course staff will deal with it, and I'm sure I will be better fit after completing a round of plank and push ups.
Has the team work suffered ? Not that I have seen. We each have taken the time to contact family, text friends, and deal with other personal life matters. I was also pleased to see that once we all had our techno fix out of the way we interacted with each other, made friends, discussed the days lectures, coached each other on whatever.
I personally used my phone to:  
Solve a business matter that could have cost me thousands if left unattended. (self employed)
Visit canadianforces.ca to review rank structure. Felt more at ease knowing I knew a person's rank.
Called and talked to my wife. Talk to my daughter who is still a little concerned with my military choice.
Checked and responded to personal and business email. 
So the question is: Was I more or less focused knowing that my business was looked after, that my knowledge of rank structures was fresh, that my daughter was going to bed without incident, that my wife was happy for same? of course I was.  Sure the results could have been the reverse business problems not resolved, wife and kid pissed off etc. Either way I know whats going on.

Life changes, change with it, move on or be left behind taking about the good old days with whom ever you manage to force to listen. For every action there is a equal and opposite reaction. There will be issues, course staff are more then ready to deal with.


----------



## aesop081

vehtech said:
			
		

> Do I see a group of rebels texting their girlfriends when the class teacher (insert rank) isn't looking? Do I see the recruits focus waning due to the ease of access to their electronic gizmos?   The answer to these and all other concerns mentioned before is NO. Will there be, sure, someone will at some point, forget to turn the ringer off and get a call in the middle of drill.  Course staff will deal with it,



That is all nice and dandy but none of it is the issue. Staff will deal with inapropriate behaviour as it always has.

People were in fact, VRing over not having their "iToys" (see the posts that started this by Bulletmagnet). Rather than sticking to our guns, policy was changed in order to retain these people. Does someone who cant go a few weeks without electronic gadgets sound like the kind of person the CF wants ? What will these people do when the realities of military life hits them  ?

The CF would have done better for itself in the long run to look at how it selects people.



> As I am on my third weekend of reserve BMQ I believe I have a position to comment from.



I believe i am also in somewhat in a position to comment on this.........


----------



## Maxadia

Regardless of why the decision was made, you're not going to see an increase in the amount of undesirables. If you do think so, then perhaps you need to take a look outside military teaching/workplace and see what % of undesirables are there.

All the policy has done is helped out the people who can act responsibly.  If staff are dealing with discipline as they always have, then no harm has been done here. Same with allowing land lines on bases, and telegraphs before that.


----------



## aesop081

RDJP said:
			
		

> If staff are dealing with discipline as they always have, then no harm has been done here.



It works for people who can live without. Those who just use their things at the wrong times or have their phones go off during drill class. Instructors blows up, case closed. The recruit learns and moves on.

The ones who cant live without, used to VR. This was a desireable situation as those people would have difficulty down the line because reality out there is that you wont always have your toys and it could be for a while. *No amount of correction by staff will help*. In fact, the opposite effect is true, they just got out. Now, with this new policy, we are retaining these people and have passed the buck of weeding them out to the next training institution or employing unit. We changed the policy to coddle these folks but the root problem still remains, they are undesireable.

Saying "there will always be undesireable folks" is not an excuse to stop trying to weed them out.


----------



## vehtech

New recruits attending training also have families. These family members may not be accustomed to being out of contact with their loved ones. Minor issues that arise from life that can be easily solved by a text message or quick cell call should not be considered a detriment to the CF. These family members with this policy change are given time to adjust to a new lifestyle that they may not be in full support of.
If I were to meet someone that was so attached to a device that VR was their only option I would be totally with CDN Aviator holding the exit door open for this loser.  I also believe policies that make life harder on recruits is a good thing, in that it tests a person. In this case however think of the person on the other end of the phone.


----------



## Maxadia

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> The ones who cant live without, used to VR. This was a desireable situation as those people would have difficulty down the line because reality out there is that you wont always have your toys and it could be for a while. *No amount of correction by staff will help*. In fact, the opposite effect is true, they just got out. Now, with this new policy, we are retaining these people and have passed the buck of weeding them out to the next training institution or employing unit. We changed the policy to coddle these folks but the root problem still remains, they are undesireable.
> 
> Saying "there will always be undesireable folks" is not an excuse to stop trying to weed them out.



So this policy is  the only thing keeping these recruits from VR'ing?  That opens up  a whole became of worms.

I think you're grasping at straws now.


----------



## aesop081

vehtech said:
			
		

> New recruits attending training also have families. These family members may not be accustomed to being out of contact with their loved ones. Minor issues that arise from life that can be easily solved by a text message or quick cell call should not be considered a detriment to the CF. These family members with this policy change are given time to adjust to a new lifestyle that they may not be in full support of.



Nobody ever said it was a detriment. The issue not about the phones or other gadgets themselves. The issue is CFLRS's reaction to people getting out because of no access to toys for a few weeks. It could have been coffee, bubble gum or anything else, the issue remains the same.

Access to families is not a detriment. For reference, there were several folks on my basic who had families. That was in 1993 and there were no cell phones or laptops, skype or whatever. Everyone made out just fine. You used the pay phones, you wrote letters. If families had emergencies, they called the school.......the system worked very well.

It was only 4 or 5 weeks of no toys. Hard to beleive anyone could not deal with that sufficiently well that they would chose to leave the CF.



			
				RDJP said:
			
		

> I think you're grasping at straws now.



Read the posts by "Bulletmagnet" that started all this. Trial at CFLRS showed that allowing gadgets from day 1 reduced the VR rate by 66% percent.

I'm not grasping at anything.



			
				BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> The Commandant has taken this step as it was seen to reduce the VR rate by 66% during the trial PL's that were run.


----------



## Maxadia

> Read the posts by "Bulletmagnet" that started all this. Trial at CFLRS showed that allowing gadgets from day 1 reduced the VR rate by 66% percent.
> 
> I'm not grasping at anything.



That's the issue right there.  Its not the decision, its the results from it. Obviously if it reduced the rate, then the instructors weren't doing a very good job of weeding  - or their use of PEDs didn't affect their performance.


----------



## vehtech

Exactly. Anthing that causes a 66% drop in vr rate has to be at the very least considered very closely. A lot of time and money was spent on these people to this point. Are they all useless or is there a secondary underlying cause. Should the CO of CFLRS changed policy? Not for me to question. Having recruited and trained new employees in the private sector for over 20 years if someone told me changing a policy would reduce people quitting by 30% I would look at it. At 66% I would accept the change even if every fiber in my being was screaming no way in hell.   BTW 66% didn't stay in because they were allowed to use a phone or toy. Life is not that simple.


----------



## Maxadia

Excellent points, my friend.


----------



## vehtech

Not private sector. It the military. 
Yes of course.
As I said in a previous post on this thread I'm not suggesting altering policies to the hello kitty side. This is to discuss a policy change by a CO. I made an assumption that he took all the life and death stuff into account before making such a policy change. My mention of the private sector was only meant to express that I have a back ground in recruiting, training and retaining staff. Not on my total lack of military experience or of the military itself. In all regards to that end I have yet to be informed of my opinion. :camo:


----------



## Jarnhamar

vehtech said:
			
		

> BTW 66% didn't stay in because they were allowed to use a phone or toy. Life is not that simple.



Actually it can be. Some people just can't handle being disconnected from their "things". An instructor friend of mine told me about a recruit who with 3 weeks left on basic training quit because they had a weekend taken away. I recall him even saying it was not punishment, they were being held the weekend to work on kit.

It's fairly common knowledge among the instructors that the policy is aimed at keeping numbers up and has nothing to do with quality. It's all about the numbers.  If someone quits or fails their trades course who cares, the numbers coming out of basic training are "higher".


----------



## brihard

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> I spoke with a little birdy.
> 
> The 66% greater retention rate (sounds like a big number) turned out to apparently equal 2 troops.
> The platoon involved in it was the "warrior platoon".   Electronics were taken away from a platoon of newbies who just started basic training. The platoon of warriors were allowed to keep their electronics, some of whom have been kicking around the system for a year +.
> Some people when told they were loosing their electronics, quit. (Are those the kinda soldiers we want defending Canada?)



Quoting this again, because it seems to have been forgotten. Go back and read Grimaldus' posts on this. Now, my fancy education doesn't seem to count for a hell of a lot in the job market, but I know when a 'study' has been horribly botched.

If they wanted to do this properly, here's a thought for how to do the study: For a twelve month period (to account for possible variation in 'time of year'... People quitting because they don't like winter; people getting through easier because of a nice Christmas break, whatever) have one or two platoon at any given time given full personal electronic privileges from day 1 in accordance with such regulations as have been the case after the 'indoc' period. Using that sample, figure out over the course of one year what the VR rate from the couple hundred troops in that sample are. Any troops who VR in that time, have an exit interview with a questionnaire that asks about the influence of personal electronics. When the course graduates, same thing- did the troops in question feel better able to keep on for having access to iToys or Snozzberies and talking to family/friends/stock broker?

For a subsequent twelve month period, simply have the no PED rule aplied as has been the case in the past. Same deal with exit interviews and graduation questionnaires.

This gives you two sample of a few hundred troops, each spanning an entire calendar year (eliminates seasonal variables, if they in fact exist), and your samples were not in CLFRS at the same time- you won't have a sample that is aware of the other, and perhaps resentful/envious thereof. At the end of the day, figure out what the correlated VR rate is, whether there's a difference, and what that difference means in hard numbers.

Yup, it would take two years to do- but so what? Why rush things like this when the difference seems anecdotally to be at best a few troops per platoon, based off a horribly flawed sample?


----------



## brihard

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> Actually it can be. Some people just can't handle being disconnected from their "things". An instructor friend of mine told me about a recruit who with 3 weeks left on basic training quit because they had a weekend taken away. I recall him even saying it was not punishment, they were being held the weekend to work on kit.
> 
> It's fairly common knowledge among the instructors that the policy is aimed at keeping numbers up and has nothing to do with quality. It's all about the numbers.  If someone quits or fails their trades course who cares, the numbers coming out of basic training are "higher".



Yeah... It's not as if there's some magical pool of people who already have BMQ (and more) and who just might be clamouring to get into the regs and could easily make up the lost numbers being discussed here.


----------



## aesop081

vehtech said:
			
		

> I have a back ground in recruiting, training and retaining staff.



We train people to do things that the civilian world often has a hard time understanding. We demand things of our people that civilian companies cannot fathom. Our leaders have responsibilities for, and power over their people that civilian managers do not. We do not recruit, train and retain like the private sector does because it would not work.

Your experience and background will serve you well one day, but it will take more than 3 weekends of reserve BMQ to temper that with military reality.


----------



## Maxadia

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> We train people to do things that the civilian world often has a hard time understanding. We demand things of our people that civilian companies cannot fathom. Our leaders have responsibilities for, and power over their people that civilian managers do not. We do not recruit, train and retain like the private sector does because it would not work.
> 
> Your experience and background will serve you well one day, but it will take more than 3 weekends of reserve BMQ to temper that with military reality.



You're making it sound like all of that good stuff is out the window now due to the allowance for PEDs during Basic.  Trust me, western civilization its not going to fall because of this choice.

*Insert quote from Socrates about kids these days.......*


----------



## brihard

RDJP said:
			
		

> You're making it sound like all of that good stuff is out the window now due to the allowance for PEDs during Basic.  Trust me, western civilization its not going to fall because of this choice.
> 
> *Insert quote from Socrates about kids these days.......*



Socrates would have asked *you* what *you* thought about kids these days.  ;D


----------



## aesop081

RDJP said:
			
		

> western civilization its not going to fall because of this choice.



Never said it would, with almost 20 years of service, i am sure that i am aware of that. Problems will get sorted out. They will just get sorted out much later than they should and the expense in time and money will thus have been greater. It will just add more work to people who already have plenty and should be concentrating on other things.

That is the real shame in all this.


----------



## vehtech

CDN Aviator, well said. I fully understand that 3 weekends of BMQ is as green as cadpat and that the military by it's very function must handle things in drastically different ways then the private sector. Hopefully my opinions expressed hear have been at least food for thought. Remember I'm mostly in agreement with you.


----------



## zerosum

vehtech said:
			
		

> the military by it's very function must handle things in drastically different ways then the private sector



In 1990 I started with a private company. Three weeks later they sent me to "school". Day 1 of school they had a test on the stuff we had to learn in the first 3 weeks. If you failed (and there were several), you were sent home and fired (like forever), the manager that hired you was given a lot of sh*t.

After 2 weeks of school you were tested again. If you failed (and there were several), you were sent home and fired (like forever), the manager that hired you was given a lot of sh*t.

Those that were left, passed the final test ... 2 1/2 months later.

Oddly enough, we were not training for live and death situations.  Crazy as it sounds, I managed with about a 5 minute call a week to my wife (with my infant child).

BTW: In BC the "N" drivers are not allowed to use any electronics (even blue tooth with their cells). Others must use blue tooth. Guess what I see about every 4 or 5 blocks of driving? No problem here folks, move along.


----------



## dogger1936

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> So why cater to them ? We're not hurting...........



I agree. However it looks like he was given a task of increasing output and ensuring a lower VR rate and he seems to have done it. I don't like it, dont think it's a good idea or approve....yet here we are.

It's much easier to say yes to everything. Sadly I've been seeing this from all sides an an instuctor a leader during war to 2IC in a unit.

Spending time on facebook, BBM your friends, is not military like. IMHO your there to be tested for 10 weeks in a stressful environment to see if you can handle extreme change in your life, loss of freedoms, connection to family, and being there to work as a team to get through it. I believe we are doing our young soldiers an injustice. As when they get thrown into the field at their units it's a new stress to them that they cant BBM their wifes do their banking etc. In turn you get soldiers who do not grasp the fact that their personal life revolves outside of deployment time. 

What happens when these youth are placed into country Sh*thole X and get a 5min SAT phone call once every couple weeks.

And how does this prepare the strongest part of the team...the families. Should we start off by letting them believe little johnny can keep in contact with them all the time? 

Not fair to the soldier or his family.

big +1 to Cdn


----------



## zerosum

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> However it looks like he was given a task of increasing output and ensuring a lower VR rate and he seems to have done it.



Everyone gets a participant ribbon. Win-win.


----------



## dogger1936

zerosum said:
			
		

> Everyone gets a participant ribbon. Win-win.



Yup.

Careers before all else.


----------



## OldSolduer

This thread is getting tiresome. The decision was made and that's that. 

The sky is not falling and the world is still turning. We can debate this til the cows come home. I suggest we cease and desist for a bit.


----------



## aesop081

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> This thread is getting tiresome. The decision was made and that's that.



Then avoid reading it. This is not the first thread about a decision and it won't be the last. If we didn't discuss decisions that were "made and that's that", we could cut the size of this site in, at least, half.


----------



## Jarnhamar

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> I agree. However it looks like he was given a task of increasing output and ensuring a lower VR rate and he seems to have done it.



Yet the numbers crunched by another officer indicted that there was an increased release rate after basic due to;
-people quitting
-people failing their trades course
-administrative/discipline releases
-medical releases

So more people are passing basic only to quit for other reasons down the road. 66% more recruits pass basic, the same amount apparently release shortly after for various reasons.  
Still the basic VR rate is decreased so technically in the words of George W Bush, mission accomplished 



> What happens when these youth are placed into country Sh*thole X and get a 5min SAT phone call once every couple weeks.



They disappear for an hour or two every night with the SAT phone.
Log into facebook to message people that they are doing a river run the next day.
Buy a cell phone in KAF with $900 worth of phone cards and give the ISI types some overtime pay.



1. What happens when yelling is deemed too degrading so instructors are no longer allowed to raise their voice?  
2. Next week nights and weekends are guaranteed. We don't want to stress these guys and gals, basic truly becomes 8-4.
3. Maybe every week the students can get together and assess their staff and if the students don't feel that the staff are instructing them very well passing on all the pertinent information the instructors get placed on a warning system of their own. After 3 bad student assessments the instructor is punted and replaced.

Might sound crazy but if it keeps our young recruits in the system a little longer maybe we should consider it


----------



## Maxadia

:argument:


I truly do not believe that this conversation would not have been locked already, if it had been started by more inexperienced forum members.  And some of the participants would be the first on the band wagon, shouting "stop beating the dead horse."


----------



## Swingline1984

RDJP said:
			
		

> :argument:
> 
> 
> I truly do not believe that this conversation would not have been locked already, if it had been started by more inexperienced forum members.  And some of the participants would be the first on the band wagon, shouting "stop beating the dead horse."



 :boring:  Your chip is showing.  However, I agree that this thread has been circling the drain for quite a while now.


----------



## armyvern

Really?? It's policy change ... there's shitloads of threads on this site dealing with policy changes that are open, unlocked and controversial. Do a search.

No more Fitness test for recruits being one amongst a great many others. Us old guys were told then too, it's done; quit whining. We were right. We've now paid people for years while they sat in the fat farm because we just couldn't hold our ground and say, "you're enrolling in the CF, get in shape or we will NOT call you."  :

Easy to say, lock it up, it's done. But, really it's not because this policy negatively affects us "old guys" at training establishments further down the cycle and on bases when we have to deal with the youngsters coming into our Units and courses with very high expectations and hopes but very very minimal doses of actual reality as to what every day in the CF is like because they were coddled through their BMQs/BOTP.

So, what is done and over with for the happy little recruits now ... has only just started the nightmare for those of us who will soon deal with sorting out the aftermath of basic courses no longer concentrating on high stress and the military basics.


----------



## aesop081

Swingline1984 said:
			
		

> :boring:  Your chip is showing.



Its ok, he was in the reserves for a summer 20 years ago.  :

I do agree on one thing. Its done so better just figure out how best to mitigate it for the rest of us down the line. Would be interesting to revisit this in a year or so with site members who teach at trade schools to see how it is going.


----------



## Journeyman

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Easy to say, lock it up, it's done. But, really it's not because this policy negatively affects us "old guys" at training establishments further down the cycle and on bases when we have to deal with the youngsters coming into our Units and courses with very high expectations and hopes but very very minimal doses of actual reality as to what every day in the CF is like because they were coddled  through their BMQs/BOTP.
> 
> So, what is done and over with for the happy little recruits now ... has only just started the nightmare for those of us who will soon deal with sorting out the aftermath  of basic courses no longer concentrating on high stress and the military basics.


Because I cause temper-tantrums when I post in Recruiting threads (or even talk about recruits in other threads, apparently), I'll refrain from commenting, and just say " :nod: "


----------



## Scott

No mod voice here:

I am interested in seeing how this goes seeing as my industry gets a load of ex military types coming in after they leave. And I can't wait to see what happens to the first guy who starts whining offshore because he can't have his iThingies. I actually hope one of them ends up working with me :nod:

I find the whole conversation quite relevant.


----------



## Maxadia

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Its ok, he was in the reserves for a summer 20 years ago.  :



That's right...obviously unless I'm as seasoned as you in the military, my comments are useless.  ;D

I'm in agreement that we'll have to see how it plays out.  But I still think it's going to be okay, same as the introduction of any other piece of technology over the years.  Sure, things won't be the same....but neither is society, so getting rid of these PEDs for Basic, IMHO, isn't going to improve anything.  Simply need to adapt training to the mindset of the new recruits in order to make sure you have the desired product on the other end.  Personally, if I was an instructor I'd be making a point of nailing people with these PEDs WHEN their use negatively affected their performance.  And if it didn't, let things lie as they are.  

BTW, in regards to your personal attack, being through Basic 22 years ago....if I do get in again (and I stress the IF part), then perhaps I'll have a better view on what Basic is like now with PEDs and how it affects things.  Granted, it will be just a comparison between two Basic courses, where even the difference in instructors and recruits can cause a lot of variance, but I will have the opportunity to see how things have changed over the years.  I\d actually be interested to see how much of a difference there is, and IF (in my opinion only, of course) it is negatively changing things.


----------



## aesop081

RDJP said:
			
		

> WHEN their use negatively affected their performance.



To me it is not just an issue of negatively affecting performance. It is an issue of proper socialization. Life in the military is not like it is on civvie street. BMQ is supposed to be where members make that transition. We accomplish this less and less as time goes by. These people will move on, after BMQ, to schools where PEDs are not acceptable. They will go to units where the simple act of having one on you is forbidden ( mine for example). They will go to places where 24/7 constant electronic contact is not possible.

BMQ was step one in getting them, and their families used to that. It was step one in getting them to think of their tasks and their team rather than outside factors.

We (the CF) will, of course make out ok in the end. Unfortunately, it will be the battle school WO that will have the burden of releasing them, as opposed the the CFLRS platoon WO and more time and money will have been wasted for the same result.


----------



## aesop081

RDJP said:
			
		

> That's right...obviously unless I'm as seasoned as you in the military, my comments are useless.  ;D



Your opinion is most welcome. It is in fact required for a discussion to happen. However your reserve summer and the other guy's 3 weekends.........well, i give it the appropriate weight. I still have allot to learn but my opinion here is based on almost 2 decades (that includes years of instructing, dealing with the failings of CFLRS).

We need a higher standard product from CFLRS, not numbers.


----------



## dogger1936

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> Yet the numbers crunched by another officer indicted that there was an increased release rate after basic due to;
> -people quitting
> -people failing their trades course
> -administrative/discipline releases
> -medical releases
> 
> So more people are passing basic only to quit for other reasons down the road. 66% more recruits pass basic, the same amount apparently release shortly after for various reasons.
> Still the basic VR rate is decreased so technically in the words of George W Bush, mission accomplished
> 
> [/quote
> 
> A policy that corrupts the reason for basic. To weed out undesirables and save the tax payers money in training soldiers who are junk.  Instead of getting them sent home early we now waste more money; as trades courses end up being more difficult than basic.
> 
> Why do we even send them to basic? Current direction of policy would be improved by making basic DL and just have em show up to trades training when their ready.
> 
> Epic fail.


----------



## Maxadia

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Your opinion is most welcome. It is in fact required for a discussion to happen. However your reserve summer and the other guy's 3 weekends.........well, i give it the appropriate weight. I still have allot to learn but my opinion here is based on almost 2 decades (that includes years of instructing, dealing with the failings of CFLRS).



I don't consider my opinion welcome when the best you can do is throw out a personal attack. But I'll accept that, and leave it at that.  




> We need a higher standard product from CFLRS, not numbers.



Of this, I will still agree.  I see the same thing in the education system, and I think if you were to be in a working situation with me, we'd both probably be happy with the level of standards we're both setting.  

Higher standard - yes, that is probably needed.  But again, I don't think that PED use is going to affect that as negatively as you suggest.  I also cannot believe that there is a 66% improvement just due to that.  I would think that it would be the same as what I have seen in the education system.....numbers of students grauduating or passing achievement exams is not high enough, so a new policy comes in.  Everyone sees the writing on the wall, and a LOT of other things slide, producing the desired "on paper" results. 

I think the focus needs to be on ensuring that the recruits are instructed at the best standard available, and not be led astray by one little policy so that huge results are formed incidentally.

As for this causing issues later.....you can still have that happening right now, even with it not being introduced into Basic.  We have teachers of all ages that have issues with PED use, and it is NOT because they used them during high school.


----------



## aesop081

RDJP said:
			
		

> I don't consider my opinion welcome when the best you can do is throw out a personal attack. But I'll accept that, and leave it at that.



Not a personal attack. You have precious little experience to put this into context. Thats it, thats all.




> you can still have that happening right now, even with it not being introduced into Basic.



Of course. That is not a reason, however, to introduce one more problem into the mix. Again, this is not about the PEDs themselves. Remove "PED" and insert "bubble gum" and the problem is still the same. Basic training is not just about teaching skills, it is about forming a completely new mindset, one that is unlike anything in civvie street. Life is very different and the sooner they recruits get used to that, the better. Going without something for 4 weeks should not result in 66% more releases. That it does says something about how we select individuals for service. Maybe the solution lies there.


----------



## MAJONES

It needs to be pointed out that BMQ is not only about teaching, it is about selection.  One of the objectives of BMQ is to filter out those individuals that just can not or will not be able to function in the military.  What is currently acceptable or normal in society as a whole has no bearing whatsoever on what the military needs from it's members.
As has been pointed out by more senior members, it is much better to filter unsuitable pers out at the BMQ level.  Letting them past this level only wastes training time and training budgets.


----------



## McG

Oddly enough, many of the OPME courses (taken by many NCMs and required for all officers) spend considerable time discussing the importance of socializing new recruits to our military ethos and of inculcating those pers to our culture.  The formative stage where this needs to happen is basic training (all of BMQ/BMOQ, environmental qual, and basic occupation qual).

The appropriateness of a smart-phone/PED policy (any such policy, not just this particular one here) can only be judged in the context of how it impacts the successful indoctrination to the military family and life.  A policy that purges extraordinary quantities of candidates because it is so alien to the modern generation is just as bad as a policy which graduates service members without the necessary values and work ethic.  It is possible that this new policy is an improvement when viewed macroscopically from the end product coming out of the occupational schools.

As I mentioned earlier, some US Army schools have integrated issued PEDs (iPhones) into their programmes to exploit the cultural addiction of the current recruit base.  This does not have to be an all or nothing consideration.
  


			
				Grimaldus said:
			
		

> So more people are passing basic only to quit for other reasons down the road. 66% more recruits pass basic, the same amount apparently release shortly after for various reasons.


I hope you were not one previously complaining of the suspect nature of the statistics used to make the new policy.  At best, there is also not yet the data to statistically assess this impact.  Anecdotally, this may be the case.  However, all the other uncontrolled variables all ready identified continue to exist and impact on the courses beyond BMQ ... including the nagging fact that the numbers are boarder-line statistically significant and the individuals were a sample biased full of questionable performers.



			
				MAJONES said:
			
		

> It needs to be pointed out that BMQ is not only about teaching, it is about selection.  One of the objectives of BMQ is to filter out those individuals that just can not or will not be able to function in the military.


"_They_" would tell you that the recruiting center is to be the point of selection, and the job of training systems is to get the selected to the required standard. Maybe "_they_" are right or maybe "_they_" are wrong.  In any case ....



			
				MAJONES said:
			
		

> What is currently acceptable or normal in society as a whole has no bearing whatsoever on what the military needs from it's members.


True, but where a requirement of service culture is so alien, to the current generation of recruits, that it is a principle driving-factor in training systems failures - should we throw candidates into the deep-end of the pool on day one and demand them to swim or could we gain greater success building them up and throwing them into that same deep-end at the start of environmental training instead

I know of Army schools that have established indoctrination policies that apply to all DP1 training (across MOS trained within those schools) and with additional protocols specific to officer DP1 courses to further emphasis leadership characteristics.  The specific stressors used for indoctrination are specifically prescribed (including access to cellphones/PEDs, access to base amenities, working hours, lights-out times, limitations on movement, participation in sports/fitness/team-building, restrictions on alcohol, etc), minimum durations of indoctrination are given, and the the standards (both team and individual) of evaluation are defined to earn progressive levels of independence.

I would hope every CF training establishment has such a policy if it is responsible for such training.  Earlier in this thread it was suggested that the iPhone/PED standard was not uniform across CFLRS.  If true, this lack of uniformity is equally as  bad as a questionable policy now in place on PEDs.  Given the importance of CFLRS as the first stage of indoctrination - the level of indoctrination should be clearly defined.  PED policies can then be measured both against the quality and quantity of out-put.  Subsequent training establishments could then also count on a specific standard of service member arriving for further training (and in turn develop their indoctrination plans/policies from this start point).

I would hope that the Army also has an indoctrination policy for BMQL because it is run at four different training establishments - if such a policy exists, I am unaware of it.  This would ensure a uniform standard of soldier arriving at Army schools for occupational training.

... So, for those in the know, what is the CFLRS plan for indoctrination (or is there such a plan)?


----------



## Maxadia

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Not a personal attack. You have precious little experience to put this into context. Thats it, thats all.




How much precious experience do you have instructing in a setting where PEDs are allowed? A lot of what you're stating is just conjecture and personal opinion, not experience. And a lot of it might just be fear of the unknown. Can you tell us how this has affected the courses you teach?

Progress comes in many ways, shapes, and forms. And thank God, because otherwise we'd be still standing in open fields in nice pretty lines trading shots at each other.


----------



## aesop081

RDJP said:
			
		

> How much precious experience do you have instructing in a setting where PEDs are allowed?



Quite a bit.



> And a lot of it might just be fear of the unknown.



The unknown doesn't bother me.



> Can you tell us how this has affected the courses you teach?



It did not as students that came to me had been properly socialized early on, as they had already completed BMQ. Like i said, that this time is PEDs is immaterial. It could have been anything else at all. If the issue was no coffee" for 4 weeks and students were releasing because of that, i would rather see them leave.

Further, this is not about performance on course. This is about proper adjustment to the realities of military life. That is the part you are missing and will continue to do so because "Pres for a summer" just isn't enough for you to put this into perspective.

Anyways, i am done with you and this whole thing.


----------



## Swingline1984

RDJP said:
			
		

> How much precious experience do you have instructing in a setting where PEDs are allowed? A lot of what you're stating is just conjecture and personal opinion, not experience. And a lot of it might just be fear of the unknown. Can you tell us how this has affected the courses you teach?
> 
> Progress comes in many ways, shapes, and forms. And thank God, because otherwise we'd be still standing in open fields in nice pretty lines trading shots at each other.



Wow, you really can't see the forest for the trees eh?  The issue is broader than the devices themselves, it is the end product (the soldier) we are debating not just the policy.  So tell me...how many "products" of the Military School system do you see, and what qualifies you to even understand what the true issue is?  As a Warrant Officer upon whom the training system spits out it's product I am definitely seeing a difference in quality and an increasing need for re-education.  As I stated earlier, this is not THE point of failure, but it is another concession in a long series of such that is having a detrimental effect.  End of the world?  No.  Making MY job harder than it has to be?  Yes.


----------



## Jarnhamar

MCG said:
			
		

> I hope you were not one previously complaining of the suspect nature of the statistics used to make the new policy.  At best, there is also not yet the data to statistically assess this impact.  Anecdotally, this may be the case.  However, all the other uncontrolled variables all ready identified continue to exist and impact on the courses beyond BMQ ... including the nagging fact that the numbers are boarder-line statistically significant and the individuals were a sample biased full of questionable performers



Indeed I was.  I am paraphrasing a conversation I had with a (no non-sense no bullshit) instructor who was present during all of this.

The highlights I took from that conversation were;

The "high" 66% figure given ended up being an increase of 2 or 3 people.

The test wasn't standard. The platoon allowed to keep their electronics were the ones already in the system for a long time. In some cases in PAT platoon for up to a year (or 2?) . They were both already used to having all their toys and in the system for the long haul.   They're making easy money.

The group who had their toys taken away were fresh new recruits.  It's not to say that having their toys taken away made them quit. I'm willing to bet if you switched that and took the toys away from the 2 year private recruits you would have a heck of a lot more drama.
If the test is to be fair take 2 identical platoons. One has their toys, one doesn't. Then check the results.

Regarding the stats, an officer (as the story goes) took the numbers across a broader spectrum, crunched them, and discovered that while "more" recruits were staying in basic and not VRing, the numbers of  new troops who were kicked off their trades course or kicked out of the CF for administrative/disciplinary issues ALSO increased.

End of the day all of this and no change in numbers.

This of course is just second hand.


I'd be interested in hearing the results of the US's project on this and if they found overall it had positive or negative results.


----------



## Stoker

Throughout this thread I have repeatedly seen senior members complaining about the product that is coming from the recruit school and how easy the kids today have it.  Has anyone actually staffed this up higher? service paper about their concerns?


----------



## aesop081

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Has anyone actually staffed this up higher? service paper about their concerns?



I'll put in on my pile of things to do, after i sort out the problems i already have.


----------



## NavalMoose

I have been following this thread for(ever)weeks now and I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Part of basic training is to push people and let them deal with adversity and exhaustion and BS to see how they handle it.  Hopefully they realize that it takes a team effort to succeed and maybe even develop a little "us" vs "them" "don't let the bastards get you down" attitude.  I know times are different, I have grown up kids, but if you can't handle a few weeks of not having your toys instantly available then what are you going to do when deployed? If there is an emergency during training, you will always be allowed to contact who you need to and to deal with it as necessary. If you are supposedly committing years of your life to an organization, then shut up and follow the rules and think about someone or something other than yourself. You are not there to play and update Facebook, you are there to learn how to act as a team and push yourself and others and ultimately how to kill for your country if called upon....serious business isn't it?


----------



## krustyrl

Best post on this thread so far....IMHO.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

oye.. we still talking about this?

 :facepalm:


----------



## GAP

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> oye.. we still talking about this?
> 
> :facepalm:



Think Energizer Bunny.............


----------



## armyvern

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Throughout this thread I have repeatedly seen senior members complaining about the product that is coming from the recruit school and how easy the kids today have it.  Has anyone actually staffed this up higher? service paper about their concerns?



LMAO; if I weren't just gettinbg in from leveeeing ... I'd respind with something witty. Not tonight.


----------



## brihard

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> LMAO; if I weren't just gettinbg in from leveeeing ... I'd respind with something witty. Not tonight.



Good levee?  ;D


----------



## armyvern

RDJP said:
			
		

> How much precious experience do you have instructing in a setting where PEDs are allowed? A lot of what you're stating is just conjecture and personal opinion, not experience. And a lot of it might just be fear of the unknown. Can you tell us how this has affected the courses you teach?
> 
> Progress comes in many ways, shapes, and forms. And thank God, because otherwise we'd be still standing in open fields in nice pretty lines trading shots at each other.



You should have heard the moaning coming from the young troops when our morale wi-fi was terminated in Afghanistan at the end of July. You'd have swore to Gawd that the world was coming to an end.  We have a job to get done on a tight timeling in this WAR ZONE --- you should have higher priorities than this.

So for me, in the real world *"experience"* of the Canadian Forces - the answer is lots.


I*  care *about training because after that comes the real world and _that_ is what BMQs and BOTPs are _supposed_ to prepare them for.


----------



## Stoker

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> LMAO; if I weren't just gettinbg in from leveeeing ... I'd respind with something witty. Not tonight.



Was just asking a question Vern, I wasn't tying to get a "witty" reply. In my neck of the woods if we have a policy problem that we strongly disagree with or have concerns then we try and get it changed. Sometimes it actually works.


----------



## aesop081

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Was just asking a question Vern, I wasn't tying to get a "witty" reply. In my neck of the woods if we have a policy problem that we strongly disagree with or have concerns then we try and get it changed. Sometimes it actually works.



For the record, i agree with you, sometimes it does work. First, i have to deal with the problems that have made beyond BMQ already.


----------



## armyvern

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Was just asking a question Vern, I wasn't tying to get a "witty" reply. In my neck of the woods if we have a policy problem that we strongly disagree with or have concerns then we try and get it changed. Sometimes it actually works.



No, it was me. I wanted to post something "witty" such as Cdn Aviator did about "too much work to do sorting out problems" ... but that wouldn't work for me because I have another month off yet so I can't post an answer ubntil tomoorow. It'll prbably read something like, "I can't right now, no DIN access."  ;D


----------



## Stoker

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> For the record, i agree with you, sometimes it does work. First, i have to deal with the problems that have made beyond BMQ already.



I hear you, some days the admin problems I have to deal with takes up a good chunk of my time. I think sometimes the old days of Cornwallis should be brought back.


----------



## McG

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> Indeed I was [one previously complaining of the suspect nature of the statistics used to make the new policy].  I am paraphrasing a conversation I had with a (no non-sense no bullshit) instructor who was present during all of this.  ...
> 
> ...while "more" recruits were staying in basic and not VRing, the numbers of  new troops who were kicked off their trades course or kicked out of the CF for administrative/disciplinary issues ALSO increased.
> 
> End of the day all of this and no change in numbers.


I have to admit some difficulty with your presenting almost as fact that at the "end of the day all of this and no change in numbers."  When it comes to the premise that you oppose, group x was not a statistically significant reference for a number of factors including size, composition (bias), and lack of steady-state reference.  Yet, none of that matters when an anecdotal observation of that same group suggests a conclusion that you like: no greater aggregate success rate due to higher releases between BMQ and operational functioning point (OFP - it is the point where a mbr is qualified in occupation).

Your friend the no-nonsense, no-bullshit instructor who was present during all of this, where did he gain visibility on all of these recent BMQ graduates after they progressed on through other training establishments?  Given the very recent announcement of this new PED policy, there are only four completed BMQ courses (the four trial courses) out there that have followed this process.  That means any statistics would have to be based on tracking individuals from the pilot courses through the rest of their training.  I can assure you, there is no mechanism where other training establishments report back to CFLRS on the success rates by BMQ course as individuals progress through further levels of training.  Also, based on the time it takes to train many occupations and the time it takes to complete 5f & 5d releases - many to most of the statistically insignificant sample group would still be in training systems (so any conclusion would be premature).

As the crux of your argument is that statistically insignificant numbers relayed second-hand in conversation prove there is no change on the training system's out-put, I do wonder if this is not the telephone game distorting somebody's speculation on the future as though it were observation on the past.  From my little corner of the world, the conduct of post-BMQ PATs has been better these past six months than it had been in the preceding three years ... but that is anecdote and not something that could be extrapolated across the CF.  



In any case, my point is not to say that free use of smartphones & PEDs is a good thing; it is to say that I don't believe there are any numbers that exist at this time to prove the wantonness of free use of smartphones & PEDs (and we certainly should not try to make that argument with numbers if we are also arguing that our reference group is not a valid statistical reference while it also points to other conclusions that we don't agree with).  

If the instructors that were on the ground want to suggest that the graduates of the trial courses did not meet the necessary standard of indoctrination to military culture, then that would be fair comment.  But, we now come back to my previous questions: what is the military indoctrination policy/plan at CFLRS?  What is the "product" of that military indoctrination programme?


----------



## jasonf6

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> I hear you, some days the admin problems I have to deal with takes up a good chunk of my time. I think sometimes the old days of Cornwallis should be brought back.


Man, if they brought back the old days of Cornwallis the princesses of today wouldn't make it past week one.  I'm not expert but I made it to week four before trying to VR but it was denied because the course WO knew my father (he ran the base kitchen).  So, they re-coursed me to a platoon where I used what I learned the first time and was doing quite well.  They still made us crawl around on the grass mooing like cows while picking weeds but I just rolled with it.  It would take pages to list all the things that they can no longer do in the name of "human rights" though.

You were lucky to see the Canex by week 4 (cept from the other side of the fence) but in St. Jean you see it damn near every day.  The difference between Cornwallis and St. Jean is like night and day.  Bash me all you want but I believe that at least half of the recruits sent to St. Jean today wouldn't make it past week four in Cornwallis.


----------



## aesop081

If Cornwallis still existed, the recruits coming out would be the same as out of St-jean now.


----------



## Stoker

jasonf6 said:
			
		

> Man, if they brought back the old days of Cornwallis the princesses of today wouldn't make it past week one.  I'm not expert but I made it to week four before trying to VR but it was denied because the course WO knew my father (he ran the base kitchen).  So, they re-coursed me to a platoon where I used what I learned the first time and was doing quite well.  They still made us crawl around on the grass mooing like cows while picking weeds but I just rolled with it.  It would take pages to list all the things that they can no longer do in the name of "human rights" though.
> 
> You were lucky to see the Canex by week 4 (cept from the other side of the fence) but in St. Jean you see it damn near every day.  The difference between Cornwallis and St. Jean is like night and day.  Bash me all you want but I believe that at least half of the recruits sent to St. Jean today wouldn't make it past week four in Cornwallis.



Unfortunately you're probably right, but you'll never see that sort of thing again in Canada. It went from a gradual creep to what we have today.
Even the reserves (naval) who went from unit training to a equivalent is now most likely going back to the units again, which will downgrade the product produced at the end of the day in my opinion.


----------



## Stoker

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> If Cornwallis still existed, the recruits coming out would be the same as out of St-jean now.



That's true but some would like a return of the hard, no BS type of training that Cornwallis once had.


----------



## aesop081

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> That true but some would like a return of the hard, no BS type of training that Cornwallis once had.



"once had"

If it were still open, it would suffer from the same issues.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Unfortunately you're probably right, but you'll never see that sort of thing again in Canada. It went from a gradual creep to what we have today.
> Even the reserves (naval) who went from unit training to a equivalent is now most likely going back to the units again, which will downgrade the product produced at the end of the day in my opinion.



That is going to happen... and gasp.... you might be sending them on Local Army BMQ's too....


----------



## Stoker

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> That is going to happen... and gasp.... you might be sending them on Local Army BMQ's too....



If they do its going to be a step back in my opinion, not being on a local ARMY BMQ but the equivalency.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Everything is going to be lined up with what is taught at CFLRS for BMQ.


----------



## Stoker

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Everything is going to be lined up with what is taught at CFLRS for BMQ.



As long as its equivalent should be no problem, then again send everyone to St.Jean and be done with it if the capacity exists. I liked it much better when our guys went to Borden.


----------



## aesop081

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> if the capacity exists.



It does not.


----------



## Stoker

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> It does not.



That's too bad.


----------



## Jarnhamar

MCG, fair points. I'll ask the sgt to clarify next time I see him. I'll also ask him to jump on here and explain from a more 1st hand POV.


----------



## Intrepidus

You'll have to pardon my language, but for fuck sakes!  I've never owned a Cell phone, Ipod, Laptop, or PDA and I'm 25.  

People VR'ing because of cell phone withdrawal, oh my good lord.  This is the end of humanity.


----------



## Tank Troll

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> That's true but some would like a return of the hard, no BS type of training that Cornwallis once had.



I have know idea what the training was like when you went through Cornwallis, but there was TONS of BS on my course. My Mcpl use to come in every Monday and Tuesday morning after watching the NFL and brag about how good of a punter he would be and proceed to practice by kicking the metal selves in our lockers to see if he could knock them all off in one kick. He like using our black berets to wipe the floor because they showed dust better. He kicked appart my bunk bed and though it out the second story window and told my bunk mate and I to bring it back up the same way it went out. He couldn't teach drill, every class he would turn around and look in his hat to see what to do next then yell at us because he gave the order wrong and we couldn't read his mind. As bad as he was the Sgt was worse. So yeah no BS in Cornhollis. :


----------



## Braver.Stronger.Smarter.

I realize I'm a little late to the party here  :deadhorse:  but it seems to me that the majority of this thread is based off of fairly vague information. After reading over the thread, I noticed a few things and I'll try to present my thoughts in an organized and intelligent manner. I realize there's strong opinions about this subject but this is what I've seen first hand. 

I'll preface this by saying that I was on one of the trial platoons. I survived. I also would have survived without my cellphone. However, I don't think that allowing electronics is a bad idea.

One of the main issues that I've seen brought up over this thread is the belief that recruits will have access to their electronics at all times and that this will distract them from training. The rules set out for the platoon I was on were that electronics stayed in our rooms at all times during the training day. After that there were limitations on what we were allowed to do. No games, no movies, no posting pictures of BMQ on Facebook and a limit on the amount of time that one could spend on their phone per night. I'm certainly not saying that those rules were followed by everyone on platoon but most did follow them and they seemed to work well. Does anyone know if those same rules were implemented for the new platoons being allowed electronics or are they under different guidelines?

Several people mentioned that recruits don't need to be checking Facebook all the time and, if they have a true emergency, they will be provided with a phone. I can say from experience that Facebook was not as great an issue as most of you seem to perceive. The majority of people on my platoon that had smartphones used them mainly for calling home and doing online banking. For those that did have emergencies, yes, a phone would have been provided but how much easier is it to deal with issues on your own time? Getting personal issues dealt with solely through the chain of command is not as easy as it's being made out to be. Also, all time spent dealing with personal issues with the help of instructors is time taken away from other activities. Your wife is having financial issues due to you being away? You'll end up taking time out to speak to staff, see a padre, see clerks to get pay issues resolved…all this takes away from training time. Call your wife after hours and get all the information so you only need to visit the clerks once? Simple. From what I saw, allowing the recruits to deal with minor personal issues as they came up instead of waiting until it snowballed into an emergency which (with no electronics) would have required a phone call to the school let the recruits actually focus on their training. 

A few things that are, perhaps, less factual than they could be:

1. The platoon that the trial was done on was a warrior platoon. This isn't incorrect in itself but the platoon I was on was definitely brand new recruits. All of us expected to lose our electronics when we got to CFLRS and were very surprised when we were allowed to keep them. 

2. Those that didn't VR were lost later due to failing out of future courses. I'm not sure when the other two trial platoons ran but I doubt many, if any, of the people I was on platoon with are done their QL3 course. There simply hasn't been enough time since the trial to see the long-term effects on soldiers and what this means for the military as a whole. That's a study I would be interested in seeing.

3. Recruits were leaving because they weren't allowed to keep their electronics. The one real example that was shown of this was from someone that was on warrior platoon. I'd prefer not to comment on warrior platoon as a whole because there are recruits there that will make quality soldiers but it's also fairly well known that morale and GAFF is fairly low among some recruits in warrior. Perhaps those recruits weren't particularly interested in staying on with the CF for the long run and were just collecting a pay cheque until something prettier came along? One example isn't a lot to go on.

Teamwork

Instructors said that teamwork suffered. This isn't something that is new information to the recruits that were on those platoons. We knew our teamwork was lacking and we were told. Often.
However, I don't believe that lack of teamwork was due to the electronics trial.  A large part of it was due to being in blue sector and being more separated from each other than the typical platoon in green sector. This was one of the things that our instructors warned us about right away and it was something that we saw every day. We were the Hollywood platoon but many of us would have moved to green sector in a heartbeat to fix our teamwork issues. 

The instructors can see that the teamwork was bad and can attribute it to the electronics policy. The recruits that were on those platoons saw what went on after-hours and, as one of them, I can say that lack of teamwork wasn't due to electronics usage.


There were, as there always are, people that broke the rules and abused the privileges. However, this happens in regard to every rule and every privilege. The instructors do their best to weed those out, unfortunately a large majority of them stay on, but I really don't think allowing electronics during BMQ under controlled rules is going to have that much of an influence on the final product.

As several have said, this isn't the end of the world. The same outcry happens every time something new is introduced but the CF still picks up and moves along. How will the poor young things survive on deployment without their cellphones? They'll adapt. If there's anything this "new generation" knows, it's change. We've seen enough of it.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

> but it seems to me that the majority of this thread is based off of fairly vague information


  Vague information?  Come again???  BulletMagnet is STAFF at CFLRS as well as a respected mbr here on this focum.  Others posting here, on both sides of the argument, probably have been in the CF longer than you've been alive.  90% or more of us probably are wearing issued socks that have more time-in than you.  Thats "vague"?   :

Sorry but I'll take the word of BulletMagnet and the words other staff are telling him over your views and that of other recent CFLRS grads.  YOU and your fellow recruits are exposed to a very small peep-hole view of CFLRS.  Staff get to see the big picture.

I don't think you have enough TI to actually understand the _core_ issue here that people who are concerned, are concerned about.  And that is the _reason_ the Cmdt CFLRS made the decision (or atleast that is my take on it).  This is one of those times you need to listen to "those that know".

I hope all these people who are used to 'being able to access their gadget"...AND their families...don't crumble when that day comes when there is no connectivity.  There are places where you can not take your I-thing or Crackberry, cellphone, etc past the Commissionaire/security checkpoint.  What will these people do then?  

Some of them will wig out because they've had it all this time "I even had it with me in Farmham man/dude/dawg!!".     OR they will just say "I don't have a gadget" and take it into the restricted area.  

Trust me, it will happen.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

-Jules- said:
			
		

> As several have said, this isn't the end of the world. The same outcry happens every time something new is introduced but the CF still picks up and moves along. How will the poor young things survive on deployment without their cellphones? They'll adapt. If there's anything this "new generation" knows, it's change. We've seen enough of it.



You REALLY need to go re-read the post ArmyVern put up about the loss of morale-Internet when she was across the pond.  Seriously.



			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> You should have heard the moaning coming from the young troops when our morale wi-fi was terminated in Afghanistan at the end of July. You'd have swore to Gawd that the world was coming to an end.  We have a job to get done on a tight timeling in this WAR ZONE --- you should have higher priorities than this.
> 
> So for me, in the real world *"experience"* of the Canadian Forces - the answer is lots.
> 
> 
> I*  care *about training because after that comes the real world and _that_ is what BMQs and BOTPs are _supposed_ to prepare them for.



Ya, I'm convinced!  Adapting at its best!

Now to me...IF, from the get-go, they are accustomed and conditioned to NOT having the I-thing, Crackberry...maybe they would have focused on more important "stuff"...on operational deployment.


----------



## SentryMAn

-Jules- said:
			
		

> As several have said, this isn't the end of the world. The same outcry happens every time something new is introduced but the CF still picks up and moves along. How will the poor young things survive on deployment without their cellphones? They'll adapt. If there's anything this "new generation" knows, it's change. We've seen enough of it.



You have no idea what "change" truly is, nor what hardship is.  The generation that is known as the Baby boomers, have experienced more change in their lives then you will see.


----------



## OldSolduer

-Jules- said:
			
		

> If there's anything this "new generation" knows, it's change. We've seen enough of it.



You're getting a bit ahead of yourself. Change? You have no idea how much we've seen....


----------



## Scott

-Jules- said:
			
		

> ......



Yes, Private!


----------



## armyvern

I actually PMd with Jules yesterday after his post and pointed out much of what is now being said (staff posting / big picture staff sees at CFLRS vs the small picture a recruit sees within their own platoon) to the young Jedi. I received a heartwarming (mom in me) response from him. He gets it. He'll (or she) will do well.


----------



## Braver.Stronger.Smarter.

How about I just reply in chronological order?  

Eye In The Sky

It appears I wasn't clear enough with the initial portion of my post. I didn't at all mean to insinuate that the information that BulletMagnet was presenting was incorrect. I was in fact referring to the general hemming and hawing going on and a few examples that I mentioned were "less than factual." I respect that BulletMagnet has a lot of time in and does have a wider perspective than I do (BulletMagnet, if I offended you in any way that wasn't my intention and I do apologize) I merely wanted to show that, as a recruit that went through the trial, I also have a different perspective that the staff doesn't have. In my opinion, the trial should have been run and information collected from both instructors and recruits before a final decision was made. As was mentioned by BulletMagnet, the staff wasn't given much of an opportunity to voice their opinion and the recruits really didn't have a chance to offer their opinion either. I know there were some in my platoon that would have voiced their opinion against the electronics. Not all of us agreed.

From what you mentioned about ArmyVern's post - I did read it and I can see how this would be an issue. I just don't see that the issue will change much in the future. If it isn't about electronics, it's going to be about something else. There will always be troops that have entitlement issues and I can see how that happens more often now than it did "back in the day" but I see that as a problem with the quality of troops that are being recruited and somehow making it through the initial training, not something that can be solely attributed to the use of electronics. 

In regards to your comments about my time in, I know that I don't have a lot of time in. I certainly made no secret of that in my original post as I wanted to show the trial from a recruits point of view. I know I have a lot to learn and I'm willing to learn it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that one of the purposes of these forums? I read the opinions of everyone else, submitted my own opinion after some thought and now I'm reading reactions to that and learning as I go along. I try to keep everything polite and professional in these boards so that I can continue to use them as a learning tool. I do appreciate when people tell me if I overstep my boundaries and am always willing to clarify or explain if needed. 

SentryMAn and Jim Seggie

Again, I apologize if it seemed like I was discounting anyone's experience. I've heard the war stories and I know that there are many members here that have seen great change in their lives. However, think of the changes that this young generation of mine have already seen in their lives. We've seen great technological advances that many of you would never have believed were possible when you were our age, we've seen the world erupt after 9/11, we've seen Canada move from a peace-keeping role to a much more active military role, we've seen changes to human rights...think of all that has happened in the last 20 odd years. Think of how much more we will yet see. My comment about change came from a study I read (which is, of course, conveniently unfindable when I really need it  : ) that an average university student has already seen more change in their life than the baby boomer generation has in theirs. In retrospect, I should have qualified what I meant by that statement before I hit the post button. 

ArmyVern

Thank you.


----------



## Swingline1984

-Jules- said:
			
		

> My comment about change came from a study I read (which is, of course, conveniently unfindable when I really need it  : ) that an average university student has already seen more change in their life than the baby boomer generation has in theirs.



Last time I checked most of the baby boomers were still alive    I'm assuming you meant that the average university student has seen more change within their first 20 years then the average baby boomer did in theirs.  Now twist that concept and put it in the perspective of someone who has been in the military for that same 20 years i.e. I see your 20 and raise you 20, then stop and think what all that change may have meant for them.  Kind of like comparing cabbages and kings isn't it?


----------



## kenmnuggas

I can only imagine what my oldest grandparents went through: 
When they were kids, planes didn't exist.
Now we're sending movies across the world using light.


----------



## aesop081

-Jules- said:
			
		

> Again, I apologize if it seemed like I was discounting anyone's experience. I've heard the war stories and I know that there are many members here that have seen great change in their lives. However, think of the changes that this young generation of mine have already seen in their lives. We've seen great technological advances that many of you would never have believed were possible when you were our age, we've seen the world erupt after 9/11, we've seen Canada move from a peace-keeping role to a much more active military role, we've seen changes to human rights...think of all that has happened in the last 20 odd years. Think of how much more we will yet see. My comment about change came from a study I read (which is, of course, conveniently unfindable when I really need it  : ) that an average university student has already seen more change in their life than the baby boomer generation has in theirs. In retrospect, I should have qualified what I meant by that statement before I hit the post button.



Keep digging that hole, you're doing great.

 :


----------



## Braver.Stronger.Smarter.

Swingline1984 said:
			
		

> Last time I checked most of the baby boomers were still alive    I'm assuming you meant that the average university student has seen more change within their first 20 years then the average baby boomer did in theirs.  Now twist that concept and put it in the perspective of someone who has been in the military for that same 20 years i.e. I see your 20 and raise you 20, then stop and think what all that change may have meant for them.  Kind of like comparing cabbages and kings isn't it?



That is what I meant, thanks for making sense out of my attempt to explain myself  ;D 

As I said, in retrospect, probably not the best comment to have made, especially considering I seem to have lost my ability to move thoughts from my mind through a keyboard and onto a screen and still have them mean what I intended.  :-[


----------



## Swingline1984

-Jules- said:
			
		

> ...especially considering I seem to have lost my ability to move thoughts from my mind through a keyboard and onto a screen and still have them mean what I intended.  :-[



But you had all that practice with your smart phone on BMQ. ;D

No worries, happens to the best of us.


----------



## OldSolduer

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I actually PMd with Jules yesterday after his post and pointed out much of what is now being said (staff posting / big picture staff sees at CFLRS vs the small picture a recruit sees within their own platoon) to the young Jedi. I received a heartwarming (mom in me) response from him. He gets it. He'll (or she) will do well.



A Jedi? Not quite yet  Master Jedi Vern.


----------



## GAP

tsk tsk Jim....just ignore the hangups...... ;D


----------



## Jarnhamar

-Jules- said:
			
		

> I'll preface this by saying that I was on one of the trial platoons. I survived. I also would have survived without my cellphone. However, I don't think that allowing electronics is a bad idea.



You think you would have survived. Luckily for you you had your cell phone so you didn't really notice not having it  



> One of the main issues that I've seen brought up over this thread is the belief that recruits will have access to their electronics at all times and that this will distract them from training. The rules set out for the platoon I was on were that electronics stayed in our rooms at all times during the training day. After that there were limitations on what we were allowed to do. No games, no movies, no posting pictures of BMQ on Facebook and a limit on the amount of time that one could spend on their phone per night. I'm certainly not saying that those rules were followed by everyone on platoon


So right here recruits were given certain privileges and still abused them. 
So basically going against everything that recruit school is trying to instill. Following orders, discipline and self-control.  Nice.

They were given an order but didn't think it applied to them, or didn't care.   I'm sure if and when they deploy overseas they'll follow all the rules...

You guys had to have your access to cell phones limited like children being grounded from an xbox.  How many instructors were required to stick around and monitor your cell phone usage? Did instructors have to stay until 1800hrs or later to make sure people weren't disobeying orders?  It sounds like a big game of cat and mouse.



> Several people mentioned that recruits don't need to be checking Facebook all the time and, if they have a true emergency, they will be provided with a phone. I can say from experience that Facebook was not as great an issue as most of you seem to perceive.


I'll counter this and say from my experience people are CONSTANTLY on facebook. I've seen BMQ, SQ, PLQ students alike updating from class instead of paying attention. 
I have a claim thats 5 months old that I'm still waiting on, yet my clerk manages to find time to update facebook from work. 



> The majority of people on my platoon that had smartphones used them mainly for calling home and doing online banking. For those that did have emergencies, yes, a phone would have been provided but how much easier is it to deal with issues on your own time?


I don't believe the only thing they used it for was calling home and banking for a second.  I'm not calling you a liar here simply saying I don't think you were really paying attention.
Doing online banking is a typical excuse why students (and staff) *NEED* their phones.
EVERYONE now days has some kind of family emergency to justify why they need to have their cell phones on them, and in hand. Guarantee you show up on a course and SOMEONE has an emergency at home. People seem to often be so hung up on staying connected that they lie about this shit.



> Getting personal issues dealt with solely through the chain of command is not as easy as it's being made out to be. Also, all time spent dealing with personal issues with the help of instructors is time taken away from other activities. Your wife is having financial issues due to you being away? You'll end up taking time out to speak to staff, see a padre, see clerks to get pay issues resolved…all this takes away from training time. Call your wife after hours and get all the information so you only need to visit the clerks once? Simple. From what I saw, allowing the recruits to deal with minor personal issues as they came up instead of waiting until it snowballed into an emergency which (with no electronics) would have required a phone call to the school let the recruits actually focus on their training.



Those are fair points, the chain of command can be slow. But still I think this makes little tiny issues into "emergencies".
I'm not sure how being away would cause your spouse to have financial issues... You're not at home meaning you're not using electricity, not using water, not eating food in the house.  You're on course getting paid and either TD or field pay, right?
If you need to speak to a padre then that's pretty serious.  You're playing devils advocate with your theory on keeping cell phones stops emergencies from snowballing. If you have an actual problem then the staff will give you time to sort it out.



> A few things that are, perhaps, less factual than they could be:
> 
> 1. The platoon that the trial was done on was a warrior platoon. This isn't incorrect in itself but the platoon I was on was definitely brand new recruits. All of us expected to lose our electronics when we got to CFLRS and were very surprised when we were allowed to keep them.


So the warrior platoon was full of new recruits?  So you were in the warrior platoon?



> 2. Those that didn't VR were lost later due to failing out of future courses. I'm not sure when the other two trial platoons ran but I doubt many, if any, of the people I was on platoon with are done their QL3 course. There simply hasn't been enough time since the trial to see the long-term effects on soldiers and what this means for the military as a whole. That's a study I would be interested in seeing.


I may have misconstrued what I was told and repeated it incorrectly. I'm thinking maybe it was a series of efforts on the recruit schools behalf to decrease the VR rate and the cell phone thing was just one part of it. I'm getting clarification.



> 3. Recruits were leaving because they weren't allowed to keep their electronics. The one real example that was shown of this was from someone that was on warrior platoon. I'd prefer not to comment on warrior platoon as a whole because there are recruits there that will make quality soldiers but it's also fairly well known that morale and GAFF is fairly low among some recruits in warrior. Perhaps those recruits weren't particularly interested in staying on with the CF for the long run and were just collecting a pay cheque until something prettier came along? One example isn't a lot to go on.


I don't mean to be crass here but basically the CF gave a platoon largely (heh) made up of a bunch of over weight recruits with "low morale", who's 'give a f###'  factor is low, full access to their toys in order to try and keep them in the CF.  A couple more than the normal average of these low morale, low GAFF ended up staying through recruit school.  

I'm seeing it as their deciding factor in being soldiers, fighting for freedom and protecting Canada, is whether or not they were allowed cell phones...



> Teamwork
> 
> Instructors said that teamwork suffered. This isn't something that is new information to the recruits that were on those platoons. We knew our teamwork was lacking and we were told. Often.
> However, I don't believe that lack of teamwork was due to the electronics trial.  A large part of it was due to being in blue sector and being more separated from each other than the typical platoon in green sector. This was one of the things that our instructors warned us about right away and it was something that we saw every day. We were the Hollywood platoon but many of us would have moved to green sector in a heartbeat to fix our teamwork issues.
> 
> The instructors can see that the teamwork was bad and can attribute it to the electronics policy. The recruits that were on those platoons saw what went on after-hours and, as one of them, I can say that lack of teamwork wasn't due to electronics usage.



I don't really see how having cell phones effects teamwork either - except as a member of a team when you constantly have to tell someone to get the #%$^ off their cell phones and help out/join the group.
"Just hold on, I got an emergency"  "Just a sec, gotta send a text"  "Just a sec, I'm in a convo with my wife"  "hold on I'm doing something"
Hey where's so and so?
Yup, HAVING a cell phone means every little thing becomes an emergency that needs to be sorted out. 
Cpl like that at my work. Day 1 of a course. Where is he when we need the admin NCO? Can't find him in the building, he's not answering his phone.  Oh, an hour later he's in the crew cab in the parking lot texting his GF- has problems at home he's trying to sort out.




> There were, as there always are, people that broke the rules and abused the privileges. However, this happens in regard to every rule and every privilege.


Which doesn't make it anymore acceptable nor does it mean we should let people get away with something just because other rules get broken.


> The instructors do their best to weed those out, unfortunately a large majority of them stay on, but I really don't think allowing electronics during BMQ under controlled rules is going to have that much of an influence on the final product.


But you've already said they some of your peers couldn't even follow orders under the controlled rules. Doesn't that tell you what the "end product is?"



> How will the poor young things survive on deployment without their cellphones? They'll adapt.


 day.
spend thousands of dollars on unsecured cell phones 
Disappear with SAT phones and spend WAY over their allotted time.


I'm not trying to attack you Jules I think it's great that you posted.  You have a good perspective in this debate having been at ground zero and it's always hard to post against the crowd.
 I think you also pointed out some flaws with this cell phone idea if you sit and think about it. Especially the part where the end product is soldiers that still couldn't follow simple rules in basic training. THOSE types would be better off VRing from the forces.


----------



## Braver.Stronger.Smarter.

Grimaldus, thanks for taking the time to reply. You've given me a few things to think about  



			
				Grimaldus said:
			
		

> So right here recruits were given certain privileges and still abused them.
> So basically going against everything that recruit school is trying to instill. Following orders, discipline and self-control.  Nice.
> 
> They were given an order but didn't think it applied to them, or didn't care.   I'm sure if and when they deploy overseas they'll follow all the rules...



I'm not saying this is right but it does happen. All the time. Recruits don't always follow all the rules. Those that broke the rules regarding electronics were also the ones breaking other rules. The way I see it, this is an issue of the individual recruit not of the policy on electronics. 



			
				Grimaldus said:
			
		

> You guys had to have your access to cell phones limited like children being grounded from an xbox.  How many instructors were required to stick around and monitor your cell phone usage? Did instructors have to stay until 1800hrs or later to make sure people weren't disobeying orders?  It sounds like a big game of cat and mouse.



The rules I mentioned were basic rules to give us as a platoon an idea of what we were and weren't allowed to do. Those rules were also posted on our floor for duty staff to see and be aware of. Instructors did not stick around after hours to monitor cell phone usage. The rules were mainly self-policed by the platoon and the duty staff would take a peek when they did their rounds. Nobody was ever checking that recruits didn't spend more than x amount of minutes on their phone. If people were spending excessive time on their phones and not getting work done it was dealt with by their section.

With regards to Facebook postings in class, this wasn't an issue for us. It's very possible that it might become an issue as recruits become more comfortable with being allowed to have their electronics. The majority of recruits were content to leave their phones in their rooms during the training day and only pull them out for a short time at night. However, this could indeed become a much bigger issue in the future. 




			
				Grimaldus said:
			
		

> Those are fair points, the chain of command can be slow. But still I think this makes little tiny issues into "emergencies".
> I'm not sure how being away would cause your spouse to have financial issues... You're not at home meaning you're not using electricity, not using water, not eating food in the house.  You're on course getting paid and either TD or field pay, right?
> If you need to speak to a padre then that's pretty serious.  You're playing devils advocate with your theory on keeping cell phones stops emergencies from snowballing. If you have an actual problem then the staff will give you time to sort it out.



Perhaps that was a poor example as it's not widely relevant but in the platoon I was on there were recruits that were not getting paid. Unfortunately, most of those having pay issues also came into the CF without a lot of financial wiggle room. That's where my perspective comes from on that. Staff are accommodating but everything takes time...it seemed to me that it was made a lot easier for those that could work out their problems in their own time.



			
				Grimaldus said:
			
		

> So the warrior platoon was full of new recruits?  So you were in the warrior platoon?



Sorry for the confusion. From what I've seen on this thread, there was another trial done with a platoon made up mainly of recruits from warrior platoon. This was not my platoon. My platoon was all brand new recruits. I was trying to differentiate between the assumption that the trial was done only on those recruits that came from warrior platoon. 



			
				Grimaldus said:
			
		

> I may have misconstrued what I was told and repeated it incorrectly. I'm thinking maybe it was a series of efforts on the recruit schools behalf to decrease the VR rate and the cell phone thing was just one part of it. I'm getting clarification.



Would you mind posting again when you do get clarification? Numbers like that are interesting to me and I'd like to see where that study came from even if it doesn't involve specifically the electronics trial. My inner nerd shines through  ;D



			
				Grimaldus said:
			
		

> I'm seeing it as their deciding factor in being soldiers, fighting for freedom and protecting Canada, is whether or not they were allowed cell phones...



I think we can both agree that if that was in fact their sole deciding factor to stay or leave, well, they're going to be in for a bit of shock when they don't get their way on everything later on.  >



			
				Grimaldus said:
			
		

> I don't really see how having cell phones effects teamwork either - except as a member of a team when you constantly have to tell someone to get the #%$^ off their cell phones and help out/join the group.



Interestingly enough, the only person there was a real issue with in regards to that was using a good old-fashioned pay phone. 




			
				Grimaldus said:
			
		

> Which doesn't make it anymore acceptable nor does it mean we should let people get away with something just because other rules get broken.



Agreed. It will become another thing to police but our platoon dealt with it fairly well.



			
				Grimaldus said:
			
		

> But you've already said they some of your peers couldn't even follow orders under the controlled rules. Doesn't that tell you what the "end product is?"



I was speaking in regards to those that break the rules anyways. Adding electronics into the mix will give them more rules to break but I don't think that something should be held back on the basis that some people will break the rules. This is basic training. Not everyone makes it through as not everyone has the qualities necessary. However, those people that don't make it through are still on platoon for a period of time and the choices they make reflect on the platoon as a whole even though they don't become the "end product".




			
				Grimaldus said:
			
		

> I'm not trying to attack you Jules I think it's great that you posted.  You have a good perspective in this debate having been at ground zero and it's always hard to post against the crowd.
> I think you also pointed out some flaws with this cell phone idea if you sit and think about it. Especially the part where the end product is soldiers that still couldn't follow simple rules in basic training. THOSE types would be better off VRing from the forces.



You've certainly given me some good points to think about but I think, even after all this, I still stand by my original thoughts. I don't believe that the electronics policy is going to be what makes or breaks new recruits - the focus needs to be on cutting out the recruits that don't show the qualities needed instead of letting them slip through the cracks for the need to fill positions. Perhaps I'll change my mind in a few years after I've seen more...I'm not opposed to seeing things from someone else's perspective.


----------



## NavalMoose

Holy s$%t what a storm in a teacup. Stop trying to over analyze this issue and DO AS YOU ARE TOLD. You joined voluntarily, now shut up and get on with your training.


----------



## aesop081

-Jules- said:
			
		

> it seemed to me that it was made a lot easier for those that could work out their problems in their own time.



Jules,

I have found over the years that when a new members tries to "deal with something on their own time", they are usualy in over their heads already and it delays them telling me there is a problem. Things then land on my desk and are 99% of time, completely out of control. At that point, it is a nightmare for me and sometimes, it is too late to do anything to help the member. The earlier a supervisor knows there is an issue, not matter how small it seems to the member, the better the CoC can be prepared to help. New recruits often do not realize that their "small" problems can have big implications WRT the CF.


----------



## OldSolduer

NavalMoose said:
			
		

> Holy s$%t what a storm in a teacup. Stop trying to over analyze this issue and DO AS YOU ARE TOLD. You joined voluntarily, now shut up and get on with your training.



While that attitude may have worked 30 years ago, its a different world today. Recruits are on the whole generally better educated, especially when it comes to their rights. I find that once you explain the rationale behind a decision, you get more "buy in" from soldiers. Just my  :2c: but at the end of the day.....do as your told.


----------



## Journeyman

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> .....especially when it comes to their rights.


True enough, but we both know that the other side of that coin is "obligations" -- people are too willing to emphasize what's owed them, and not what they are duty-bound to produce.




Oh damn, I'm in a Recruiting thread again.   :facepalm:


----------



## OldSolduer

Journeyman said:
			
		

> True enough, but we both know that the other side of that coin is "obligations" -- people are too willing to emphasize what's owed them, and not what they are duty-bound to produce.



I've said for years we, as a society, have not done enough to teach people about their responsibilties to their families, neighbours, and nation.


----------



## Braver.Stronger.Smarter.

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Jules,
> 
> I have found over the years that when a new members tries to "deal with something on their own time", they are usualy in over their heads already and it delays them telling me there is a problem. Things then land on my desk and are 99% of time, completely out of control. At that point, it is a nightmare for me and sometimes, it is too late to do anything to help the member. The earlier a supervisor knows there is an issue, not matter how small it seems to the member, the better the CoC can be prepared to help. New recruits often do not realize that their "small" problems can have big implications WRT the CF.



You're absolutely right. It's all too easy for small issues to snowball into big ones. I would never advocate hiding problems from the CoC, just that it was easier for some members to deal with issues (that the CoC already knew about) on their own time and give a quick verbal report back rather than writing memos and making formal appointments. Just a simpler approach that seemed to work in these cases, but everybody and every situation is different.


----------



## aesop081

-Jules- said:
			
		

> but everybody and every situation is different.



Thank you for stating the blatantly obvious. You may not believe it but i have seen and dealt with problems you cannot imagine. When i tell you that a recruit's entire world will not come to an end (as in : all problems can be addressed appropriately) if he doesn't have a cellphone/internet for a few weeks, you can take that to the bank.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Jules, let me try a different approach.

Having recruits use cellphones isn't going to destroy the Canadian Forces. There i said it! 

What a lot of us are trying to argue and hammer home is that taking recruits "stuff" away is a way to indoctrinate them and preparing them for having no access to that stuff. That includes all the "minor snowballing emergencies" which honestly aren't as big of a deal as people make them out to be.
I don't want to say "You don't know what it's like until you experience it, maaaaaan" but  it's true.  Sitting at basic training may not seem like a big deal and you can say "I'm sure I can easily function without my cellphone/stuff" but until you have to you don't really know.  "We" have seen lots of people literally go to shit because they don't have their stuff. It plays a huge psychological factor in a lot of people.  You would be surprised at how very miniscule things can psychologically effect someone.
We sent a Sgt home from Afghanistan because he couldn't disconnect from the internet. He kept sneaking off during duty to check his mail.  Lot of wasted money there.

We deprive recruits of sleep because it will be something they face in their career down the road and they need to experience it in a training environment first.
Different courses deprive soldiers of food (quantity and quality) to prepare them for modified diets they may face.
We put weight on soldiers backs and make them do rucksack marches to prepare them for carrying weight around on their back in the future.
We yell and scream (in a fashion) so that when stress levels are through the roof and everything is chaotic and someone yells GET THE %&#$ OUT OF THE WAY the person reacts and moves- not sit down and get teary eyed because someone raised their voice at them.
We give recruits 5 minutes to do an 8 minute job to jack up their stress levels. See who the leaders are, see who the followers are, see who turns into a bag of poop.
We do inspections and catch you trying to take short cuts to teach you NOT to take short cuts and to do the job right the first time.

Disconnecting with your family, the news, social media, electronics and free time is a major thing soldiers are forced to deal with on training and during operations. If a soldier is too bent out of shape because he or she hasn't spoken to their loved ones in a couple of days then they won't see the little wire half burried in the sand they're about to kick. Or realize that they didn't take their mag off when they unloaded their rifle and are about to fire off their action into a tent wall.  

This is actually a much bigger issue than recruit school. We as a society are progressively finding it more and more difficult to disconnect from "things".



You mentioned it's easier for recruits to deal with some issues on their own. The same recruits that don't follow simple orders (Don't use your cell until X time). They lack discipline and self-control.
The problem is the same troops take advantage of the "deal with it on your own" approach where upon every little thing becomes an emergency and you can bet your beret they will invent ALL kinds of "issues" they need to deal with if it means they get time away from PT, training, cleaning weapons, watchful gaze of their instructors.

You may not see it from your perspective, and being new to the CF that's totally understandable.  Instructors HAVE seen it. It's the same reason why we know that you guys hide stuff under your pillows and in your boots during inspection.  We've dealt with it in the past so so we know what to expect.


----------



## Braver.Stronger.Smarter.

Grimaldus, 

All fair points even if we do disagree on some of the issues. This is definitely something that I'm going to be following a little more closely now that I've seen all the strong opinions that people have. 

I've enjoyed our discussion but, as I don't see either of us changing our minds, perhaps it is time to let this one rest? 

Talk to me in a few years and see if I still agree with everything I said in my original post.  ;D

Jules


----------



## Wilamanjaro

Just skimmed this topic as it seems to get a little out of hand.

I've heard from someone who is now finished BMQ and close to finishing BMQ-L that some people brought their xbox and TV. Are things like these allowed? Seems a little crazy but if it's acceptable I just might bring mine, it'd be a great way to communicate with friends back home on the weekends.


----------



## dangerboy

It depends on where you do the course.  If you show up to LFWA TC with a TV and X-Box they will get locked up and you will not see it till the day you leave. I can not speak to the policy at any other training centre.


----------



## OldSolduer

dangerboy said:
			
		

> It depends on where you do the course.  If you show up to LFWA TC with a TV and X-Box they will get locked up and you will not see it till the day you leave. I can not speak to the policy at any other training centre.



Big meanies in Wainwright....sheesh!!


----------



## Deelo

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> What a lot of us are trying to argue and hammer home is that taking recruits "stuff" away is a way to indoctrinate them and preparing them for having no access to that stuff... We as a society are progressively finding it more and more difficult to disconnect from "things"...



Well said. As someone about to partake in BMQ at the Mega, I can't agree more. That said, I will enjoy access to my iPhone if/when I am allowed said privilege, and if/when I have the time after other tasks.


----------



## Maxadia

Wilamanjaro said:
			
		

> I've heard from someone who is now finished BMQ and close to finishing BMQ-L that some people brought their xbox and TV.



In the words of today's younger generation....."WTF?"


----------



## stealthylizard

Went through the Mega in 2008.  No one that I know of brought a TV and/or an xbox.  I am almost positive it would be confiscated until course end.  People did have PSP's and DS's, but they were locked up until at least the weekend of your first weekend leave.  Cell phones were also locked up until that weekend.  Sunday night, they were all locked back up again.  They do have pay phones available for use, (to pay bills with telephone banking and communicate with loved ones).  If you have earned the privilege of having a bit of free time in the evenings, there were also internet kiosks set up around the mega.

In Wainwright for DP1 (infantry), it was pretty much the same thing.  All electronics, including cell phones were locked up until a weekend where you had earned the privilege to access them.  There were also pay phones, and the junior ranks had wifi service for those with lap tops.


----------



## Wilamanjaro

cypres78 said:
			
		

> A TV and XBox is a good way to communicate?..I must be getting old.



To reiterate:

...remind my old buddies that I am the king...


----------



## Maxadia

Wilamanjaro said:
			
		

> To reiterate:
> 
> ...remind my old buddies that I am the king...



IMO, and take it with a grain of salt as it has been a few years (gulp - decades!) for me....if you have time to be "king" on Basic, you're doing it wrong....


----------



## AgentSmith

Wilamanjaro said:
			
		

> I've heard from someone who is now finished BMQ and close to finishing BMQ-L that some people brought their xbox and TV. Are things like these allowed? Seems a little crazy but if it's acceptable I just might bring mine, it'd be a great way to communicate with friends back home on the weekends.



I'd recommend leaving the xbox and tv at home as you will have more important things to worry about on basic. Besides it will likely be locked up for a very long time and in the end it's more stuff you have to carry with you.


----------



## Wilamanjaro

thank you, yes, i will not be bringing such things.


----------



## Wilamanjaro

and i only meant "the king" at the video games. i understand how low i will be on the food chain in basic.


----------



## youngapplicant

Come on now folks..... times change!!!! 

recruits having access to a cell phone won't affect the forces...... you have to be able to acknowledge that times and people change, we are in an age of technology.

Electronics are now apart of ones life!!!!   

When I was in high school they tried making a rule of no cell phones in school...... do you think that rule was followed? 2 years later they dropped the rule and asked students to be courteous of others and to not disrupt the class with your cell phone.


----------



## aesop081

youngapplicant said:
			
		

> recruits having access to a cell phone won't affect the forces......



You are basing that on your considerable experience, right ?



> do you think that rule was followed?



The difference is that, in our world, there are real consequences for not following the rules.


----------



## Towards_the_gap

youngapplicant said:
			
		

> When I was in high school they tried making a rule of no cell phones in school...... do you think that rule was followed? 2 years later they dropped the rule and asked students to be courteous of others and to not disrupt the class with your cell phone.



Cdn Aviator - This comes from an applicant to be an MP no less!


----------



## Eye In The Sky

youngapplicant said:
			
		

> Come on now folks..... times change!!!!



Yup.  So basically, not having access to cell phones and IGadgets now is the same as how I didn't have access to a pay phone and a TV when I went thru Basic in '89.  I, along with my other 100'ish platoon mates, all made it thru.  It DID teach us to deal with 'time away from civi life norms" and not being able to talk to our wives, girlfriends, etc.  Despite what you think, that IS one of the hardships you have to get used to in the CF.  Don't like it?  Don't join.  Seems simple to me.



> When I was in high school they tried making a rule of no cell phones in school...... do you think that rule was followed? 2 years later they dropped the rule and asked students to be courteous of others and to not disrupt the class with your cell phone.



Yes I agree...the generations of today are so fucking undisciplined it makes me want to kick some of them.  Citing how your fellow students couldn't follow a simple rule is how you are supporting your position?   : If anything, it shows how fucking useless so many of the "me" generation are growing up to be.  They don't follow the no cell phone rule, the don't follow the no-texting while driving rule, or whatever, and then justify it with some stupid example like you just did.

You and your kind should know that the "teachers" in the CF at Basic/CFLRS won't even consider tolerating the BS school teachers have to take from the "me" generation.   

And please don't try to justify yourself with any more "one time, at band camp" examples.   :facepalm:


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Why are we still talking about this subject  ???


----------



## Chrispi

This thread was quite...  Let's call it 'interesting'.

As someone starting BMQ in less than 2 weeks, it was 'interesting' to read the different perspectives on the subject of electronics at BMQ.  Thank you to everyone for their contributions in the thread, you've helped me with my decision; I will be leaving my laptop at home.  As many have already said, there are mechanisms already in place for me use if a family "emergency" happens back home.

I don't need, and more importantly, or WANT, the distraction while I'm in St. Jean, I'm sure it will be difficult enough as is.

Thank you
Chrispi


----------



## Nichfour

I agree with Chrispi, and I am also going to be starting bmq in around 2 weeks. There is no way id bring my laptop. I feel there is going to be enough to clean, practice and study that makes a laptop a bmq honestly ridiculous. If you can't last a day without checking your facebook then stay home. Ill bring my cell phone but it wont be coming out unless its a weekend or I need to communicate with my family in regards to my bills/ finances. 

I was under the impression one of the main factors in bmq was to build camaraderie and teamwork among new CF members. How is this to be accomplished when after the daily routine the first thing you do is run to your laptop and seclude yourself. EVEN if you wait till all responsibilities are dealt with before using it, you will be choosing a laptop over opportunities to bond and contribute. EVEN if you are convinced you are bonding at a healthy rate, the time you would be spending scanning your news feed would be better spent sleeping in preparation for the next day. 

I don't want to misconstrued CDN Aviator's statements, but I am with him on this one. I think allowing leisurely electronics is a bad idea, my generation is getting fatter and more attached to these devices. Instead of counter acting these changes and forcing people to strive for excellence, the CF seems to be bending (From what I've read and heard from former and current members, again not much experience on my part). Allowing Electronics and lowering fitness standards is a bad road. I think when applicants start striving for mediocrity there is an issue. By the previous statement I mean lowering standards only brings out a lower caliber in attempts. 

Just my  :2c: take it with a grain of salt or not at all. 

Also ill see you in St. Jean Chrispi.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> Cdn Aviator - This comes from an applicant to be an MP no less!



Hey don't ruin it man!
I hate getting pulled over for speeding by MPs, I mean come on everyone does it. Get with the times!  
This new possibly soon to be MP is down with not following the rules.


----------



## Journeyman

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> And please don't try to justify yourself with any more "one time, at band camp" examples.   :facepalm:


     :rofl:

Sometimes, even among the _countless_ stupid Recruiting threads, entertainment can be found.  op:


----------



## George Wallace

youngapplicant said:
			
		

> Come on now folks..... times change!!!!
> 
> recruits having access to a cell phone won't affect the forces...... you have to be able to acknowledge that times and people change, we are in an age of technology.
> 
> Electronics are now apart of ones life!!!!
> 
> When I was in high school they tried making a rule of no cell phones in school...... do you think that rule was followed? 2 years later they dropped the rule and asked students to be courteous of others and to not disrupt the class with your cell phone.



Why not learn to cope now without your constant needs/addiction for connectivity to some other internet/wifi/cell entity?  Do you really need 24 and 7 connectivity?  What are you going to do when you/if you do become a CF member and have to work in a Secure Location where no Cell Phones, cameras, memory sticks, tablets or any other electronic device is permitted?  Surely you have the capability to break this addiction for a few hours in a day of Basic Trg.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Why not learn to cope now without your constant needs/addiction for connectivity to some other internet/wifi/cell entity?  Do you really need 24 and 7 connectivity?  What are you going to do when you/if you do become a CF member and have to work in a Secure Location where no Cell Phones, cameras, memory sticks, tablets or any other electronic device is permitted?  Surely you have the capability to break this addiction for a few hours in a day of Basic Trg.



I'd say each 'generation' going thru Basic has something they have to do without, give up, etc that at the time, seemed near and dear to them and worthy yammering on about.  When I went thru Cornwallis it was pop; we had to 'earn' our pop privileges.  The shack water was pretty bad, but there was a pop machine in the shacks.  Insert money, select type, push button, cup drops down, pop pours...and enjoy.

Only there was NO cups in the damn thing until we got our collective shyte together.  We made it thru without pop until "Week whatever", but I'll never forget people putting their quarters in night after night, praying that damn cup would drop down.  When it didn't, it was enough to drive some people wacky (thinking back to the night Recruit Bloggins beat up his long underwear in the ironing room after Attempt # 299987 still didn't produce a cup of pop).  You can bet ppl felt stupid when we were told by one of our Squad NCOs "yes we know there are no f**king cups in the f**king machine...we TOLD you that you have to EARN it."  Well, it probably wasn't said as nicely as that.   >

So...for us it was pop; today its *insert gadget name*.  20 years from now, people will be bitching that they can't take their *personal hovercraft space bike* to Basic or whatever gizmo will be 'near and dear' to them.


----------



## youngapplicant

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> You are basing that on your considerable experience, right ?
> 
> The difference is that, in our world, there are real consequences for not following the rules.



Wow, the flaming that a newbie takes on here!

No I'm basing it on the fact that the "higher ups" made the policy change.

In no way would I be devastated if I couldn't use my cell phone while on course, I'm just contributing a view of someone who is apart of the "me" generation, as you guys put it, and I do think its a positive change.

If the policy wasn't changed it wouldn't have any affect on my decision of joining, and I'm sure I would get through basic training without it just like everyone else did. But since its allowed now, I'll probably enjoy the access to family and friends even if its once in a blue moon and for short periods.


----------



## Journeyman

youngapplicant said:
			
		

> Wow, the flaming that a newbie takes on here!


   :nod:  Almost universally due to what the Army calls a "self-inflicted wound" or a "negligent discharge."

See up at the top of the screen, where it _*doesn't*_ say Justin_Beiber_Rocks.com? Other sites apparently have different expectations of responsibility for what you post.

Welcome to Milnet; hopefully you'll make the transition.    ;D


----------



## medicineman

youngapplicant said:
			
		

> Come on now folks..... times change!!!!
> 
> recruits having access to a cell phone won't affect the forces...... you have to be able to acknowledge that times and people change, we are in an age of technology.
> 
> Electronics are now apart of ones life!!!!
> 
> When I was in high school they tried making a rule of no cell phones in school...... do you think that rule was followed? 2 years later they dropped the rule and asked students to be courteous of others and to not disrupt the class with your cell phone.



Said it once, I'll say it again - part of learning to be a soldier is learning to deal with being deprived of stuff - so that when it happens for real, as it often does out in the real world, you'll have no problems making due without.  

Make no mistake, if you're told to "turn your (add your own expletive)ing cell phone off or put it away" and you don't, you'll likely find that the National Defence Act isn't near as lenient as your spineless principal and or school board was with your fellow students.

 :2c:

MM


----------



## Scott

You were not flamed. If you can't handle being told you're wrong (reasons were given) then you are not going to last long.

Wind your neck in.

Scott
Staff


----------



## estoguy

medicineman said:
			
		

> Said it once, I'll say it again - part of learning to be a soldier is learning to deal with being deprived of stuff - so that when it happens for real, as it often does out in the real world, you'll have no problems making due without.
> 
> Make no mistake, if you're told to "turn your (add your own expletive)ing cell phone off or put it away" and you don't, you'll likely find that the National Defence Act isn't near as lenient as your *spineless principal and or school board * was with your fellow students.
> 
> :2c:
> 
> MM



FTW!  

Well said.  As a supply teacher, the bolded part is so true.  Kids have no idea how good they have it thee days.

If I get selected , I'm honestly looking forward to ignoring my phone most of, if not all day!  ;D


----------



## Jarnhamar

youngapplicant said:
			
		

> Wow, the flaming that a newbie takes on here!



You should see what happens when you say something dumb on basic training.


----------



## Northalbertan

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I'd say each 'generation' going thru Basic has something they have to do without, give up, etc that at the time, seemed near and dear to them and worthy yammering on about.  When I went thru Cornwallis it was pop; we had to 'earn' our pop privileges.  The shack water was pretty bad, but there was a pop machine in the shacks.  Insert money, select type, push button, cup drops down, pop pours...and enjoy.
> 
> Only there was NO cups in the damn thing until we got our collective shyte together.  We made it thru without pop until "Week whatever", but I'll never forget people putting their quarters in night after night, praying that damn cup would drop down.  When it didn't, it was enough to drive some people wacky (thinking back to the night Recruit Bloggins beat up his long underwear in the ironing room after Attempt # 299987 still didn't produce a cup of pop).  You can bet ppl felt stupid when we were told by one of our Squad NCOs "yes we know there are no f**king cups in the f**king machine...we TOLD you that you have to EARN it."  Well, it probably wasn't said as nicely as that.   >
> 
> So...for us it was pop; today its *insert gadget name*.  20 years from now, people will be bitching that they can't take their *personal hovercraft space bike* to Basic or whatever gizmo will be 'near and dear' to them.




You guys had a pop machine in the shacks?!  When I went through Cornholis we never had pop machines in the barracks.  We had to walk down to the Canex...on weekends....if you were allowed out.  Wobbly pops at the G&G were much better than just a pop anyway, when you were allowed a base pass.  Week 3 or 4 was the first one If I remember right.

North Albertan


----------



## Tank Troll

We had a pop machine the fizzy kind that mixes it in to the cup and like EIS stated there was no cups in the machine so we thought we were smart and going to use our canteen cups. The @#$%^&* things were to big didn't fit.

I'm currently course WO for a PRes BMQ and we don't let our students have any personal electronics till their free time (weekends) when they get them and after the first 2 weeks the stopped have the DTs and now the they just shake a bit when they hear or see one.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Tank Troll said:
			
		

> I'm currently course WO for a PRes BMQ and we don't let our students have any personal electronics till their free time (weekends) when they get them and after the first 2 weeks the stopped have the DTs and now the they just shake a bit when they hear or see one.



Have you found that students try to sneak electronics by the staff or are they pretty good for following the rules?


----------



## Maxadia

Northalbertan said:
			
		

> You guys had a pop machine in the shacks?!  When I went through Cornholis we never had pop machines in the barracks.



You guys had barracks?  Tent City for me in '89. Coolest luxury we got was a sunglasses promotion from Greco Pizza on weekends.


----------



## Tank Troll

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Have you found that students try to sneak electronics by the staff or are they pretty good for following the rules?



We let them have them between 2100-2300 when lights go out, as long as they were done their work. We told them right from the start any one abuses the privilege they would lose them permanently till end of course. If they did sneak it we didn't catch them, the course is over tomorrow


----------



## PuckChaser

Tank Troll said:
			
		

> If they did sneak it we didn't catch them, the course is over tomorrow



So you trained them well?  ;D


----------



## OldSolduer

RDJP said:
			
		

> You guys had barracks?  Tent City for me in '89.



Luxury. We had a cave, and had to share it with the T Rex family.


----------



## Maxadia

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Luxury. We had a cave, and had to share it with the T Rex family.



http://www.cmoore.com/funstuff/humor/mp.script.weweresopoor.php  ;D ;D ;D


----------



## Tank Troll

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> So you trained them well?  ;D



Or put the fear of god into them either way it worked ;D


----------



## Cpl_lou

We were not allowed electronics throughout the week and it made life very difficult. As a mother of 5, with a husband who works shift work and kids involved in all kinds of activities (and some away at University and in the Military, themselves); it was impossible to call home from a pay phone and actually contact them within the hours that we were allotted to do so. I went weeks without talking to my kids and even longer without talking to my husband. This did some damage to our family life for awhile. I can see how married recruits with children would have difficulty living without their phones for 3 months. Family dynamics have changed drastically throughout the past 20+ years; so have the recruits. You now have people like me - mothers with 5 children coming from a blended family with complicated dynamics - joining later in life. Not all families can live without their mother's/father's that long without issue. Especially single parents, or parents from blended families. Furthermore, not all recruits are young, single teens anymore. I see that the face of the military is changing, and I think that it's good that some facet of the military training system is changing with it.

Now, I don't believe it is necessary to have laptops and other electronics - I would have never even thought to take a computer with me. I understand how time consuming these things can be. However, recruits should definitely have (limited) access to their phones throughout the course to; call home, do emergency banking, put out fires, contact children's schools, deal with family issues, etc. Limiting the time that they are able to access their phones allows them time to call out or be called, but allows for time to get tasks done, as well. Taking it away completely makes them feel trapped and incompetent and useless to their families.

I'm lucky I had an understanding husband who was (mostly) able to deal with the issues that arose throughout my 3 months at CFLRS. I'm sure there have been many families broken up as a result of the military training system. 

Want to keep recruits? Keep them happy and keep their families happy.


----------



## OldSolduer

It never hurts to suffer some deprivation as long as long term health or safety is not affected. Soldiers do not need wireless internet in the field, nor do they require MP3 players or iPods and iPads in the defensive position, or a camcorder on patrol to upload their latest adventures to You Tube, or their cell phone to check in three times a day with 9er Domestic.  While many of our troops possess some of these electronic devices  they are not required when we are deployed on exercise or operations. Their use needs to be monitored IAW common sense use for instance - no listening to your iPod on sentry.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Cpl_lou said:
			
		

> Want to keep recruits? Keep them happy and keep their families happy.



If a recruits decision to stay in the CF or release is because they can't talk on their Igadget....I'll start filling out their VR form for them.

Times have changed, sure.  Everyone has an IGadget.  That doesn't mean you can use it 24/7.  I can think of a whole bunch of places in the CF people work that you can NOT have a wireless device, in fact you can't even have it ON you, you surrender it upon entering the building.

If a family breaks up because of a recruit not being able to FB and text, etc I'll suggest there were far larger issues at play before the CFLRS restrictions.

Another point, if you are going to join the CF, you MUST accept there are times you will NOT be able to "deal with the school" et al, and CFLRS is the first of those times.  Get used to it.  Having a spouse and kids hardly makes you and your situation unique or special.


----------



## PuckChaser

Cpl_lou said:
			
		

> I'm lucky I had an understanding husband who was (mostly) able to deal with the issues that arose throughout my 3 months at CFLRS. I'm sure there have been many families broken up as a result of the military training system.



A whole 3 months? Wow, operational deployments of 6,8,9,10,12 months aren't going to be a whole lot easier. You won't have an IPhone there either.


----------



## Cpl_lou

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> If a recruits decision to stay in the CF or release is because they can't talk on their Igadget....I'll start filling out their VR form for them.
> 
> Times have changed, sure.  Everyone has an IGadget.  That doesn't mean you can use it 24/7.  I can think of a whole bunch of places in the CF people work that you can NOT have a wireless device, in fact you can't even have it ON you, you surrender it upon entering the building.
> 
> If a family breaks up because of a recruit not being able to FB and text, etc I'll suggest there were far larger issues at play before the CFLRS restrictions.
> 
> Another point, if you are going to join the CF, you MUST accept there are times you will NOT be able to "deal with the school" et al, and CFLRS is the first of those times.  Get used to it.  Having a spouse and kids hardly makes you and your situation unique or special.



When I say times have changed, I mean the recruits are not all young, single, childless males with nothing they can't leave behind for 1.5 years of training anymore. The new face of the military includes peoples mothers and fathers - in some cases, even grandparents. People are joining at all different ages and stages of life with varying responsibilities and varying complexities at home. When I joined, I was given 3 weeks to organize and sort out my life at home before going away for 3 months (which actually led to 14 months and then was posted away from home for another - as yet undetermined number of years). As a mother and wife (and various other roles I played in my life), that is not an easy task. I've heard countless times throughout the past year and a half, "did you not sort that out before you got here?", or "you need to sort that out if you want to succeed here"... please, tell me how it is possible to "sort out" family issues that arise with either no comms or limited comms home.

You know, I joined this forum to connect with 'like-minded' people who were all a part of the same 'family' and voice my opinion on matters relating to our jobs; and after perusing the site a bit, all I have seen is these so-called 'like-minded' people attack one another for their opinions. I joined the CF because I have a long history of family who have served, have died or been injured serving our country so, that we can be free to voice our opinions.


----------



## aesop081

Cpl_lou said:
			
		

> We were not allowed electronics throughout the week and it made life very difficult. As a mother of 5, with a husband who works shift work and kids involved in all kinds of activities (and some away at University and in the Military, themselves); it was impossible to call home from a pay phone and actually contact them within the hours that we were allotted to do so. I went weeks without talking to my kids and even longer without talking to my husband. This did some damage to our family life for awhile.



Life deployed is going to be a serious shock to your family then.



			
				Cpl_lou said:
			
		

> When I say times have changed, I mean the recruits are not all young, single, childless males with nothing they can't leave behind for 1.5 years of training anymore. The new face of the military includes peoples mothers and fathers - in some cases, even grandparents.



Recruiting demographics may have changed but reality has not, and will not, change.



> You know, I joined this forum to connect with 'like-minded' people who were all a part of the same 'family' and voice my opinion on matters relating to our jobs;



"like-minded" does not mean we all agree. If you are looking for a group hug and people to always tell you how wonderful your opinions are, i am sure there are other forums for that.


----------



## aesop081

Cpl_lou said:
			
		

> I was given 3 weeks to organize and sort out my life at home before going away for 3 months



Luxury. I got 3 hours notice for OP MOBILE. I'm a single parent. Your problem was what ?



> please, tell me how it is possible to "sort out" family issues that arise with either no comms or limited comms home



You had better learn how to deal with that. Limited comms is usually the best you are going to get.


----------



## Cpl_lou

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Life deployed is going to be a serious shock to your family then.



Life deployed as in overseas? Or life deployed as in away from family for years at a time? Because I've already been gone for well over a year and a half and don't foresee being home with them again for at least 2-4 years.

In response to your other replies... I have seen the devastating results of the old school line of thinking in my job. I've dealt with a lot of really damaged people already in my short time in.  I understand the attitude when it relates to in-theatre ops, but is it really necessary when in garrison? 

You're speaking to me as though I know nothing of the military simply because I commented on my difficulties throughout BMQ with family issues arising. The decision was made to allow recruits to utilize their cells throughout BMQ by higher for a reason. Perhaps mine, was not a unique story?

And no thanks to the group hug...


----------



## aesop081

Cpl_lou said:
			
		

> Life deployed as in overseas?



Yes, overseas. Where internet and telephones are rare things that often do not exist.



> I understand the attitude when it relates to in-theatre ops, but is it really necessary when in garrison?



In garrison, comms are hardly limited. BMQ is not "garrison". It is an introduction to the realities of military life. If one cannot live with limited comms for 3 months........... 



> And no thanks to the group hug...



Then quit complaining about the responses you are getting.


----------



## Cpl_lou

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Yes, overseas. Where internet and telephones are rare things that often do not exist.
> 
> In garrison, comms are hardly limited. BMQ is not "garrison". It is an introduction to the realities of military life. If one cannot live with limited comms for 3 months...........
> 
> Then quit complaining about the responses you are getting.



Disengaging. My reasoning is lost on your rationale.


----------



## Scott

Yeah, and I am sure you're the only one in step. :



> Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone!


Admirable, but I would suggest that if you find yourself alone that you might want to examine your side of the argument for flaws :nod:

If you cannot participate in a debate without crying that you've been attacked then feel free to keep disengaged. 

Scott
Staff


----------



## aesop081

Cpl_lou said:
			
		

> Disengaging. My reasoning is lost on your rationale.



That's ok. I'm fairly comfortable that my rationale is well grounded in 20 years of living with reality.


----------



## Cpl_lou

Scott said:
			
		

> Yeah, and I am sure you're the only one in step. :
> Admirable, but I would suggest that if you find yourself alone that you might want to examine your side of the argument for flaws :nod:
> 
> If you cannot participate in a debate without crying that you've been attacked then feel free to keep disengaged.
> 
> Scott
> Staff



Okay... All I was trying to say is that I support the decision within reasonable limits to allow recruits the use of their cell phones at the end of duties for a limited amount of time. Not all families can lose their mother/father for that long without issues arising. The military as a noble institution with so many noble and incredibly brave souls; however, there are a lot of things that could be fixed in order to help retain the good members. First thing is change with the changing needs of members and their families. The cell phone issue is simply one small portion of that.


----------



## Scott

Maybe you could have put it this way to begin with...?

I am sorry, but we are not going to agree. If you have such a bad family dynamic that a cell phone is all that stands between happiness and a meltdown then I suggest something a little extra than what an iPhone and a data plan from Rogers can provide. I do not feel much in the way of sympathy, either. Plenty of us have been down this road, plenty of us continue down it as you speak, most without a shred of complaint.

Your situation is not unique.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Cpl_lou said:
			
		

> When I say times have changed, I mean the recruits are not all young, single, childless males with nothing they can't leave behind for 1.5 years of training anymore. The new face of the military includes peoples mothers and fathers - in some cases, even grandparents. People are joining at all different ages and stages of life with varying responsibilities and varying complexities at home.



And what exactly is it about this you think is "new"?  I joined in '89, and we had enough females in our platoon that they got 1/4 of the living space in our double story H-hut.  Your opinion is based on flawed information and I don't agree with this 'new face of the military' stuff either; what new face?  Are you suggesting that the people who served before were all young, single males?  My father would disagree, and he retired when I was 11.

I don't need to go any further than that, so I won't.



> When I joined, I was given 3 weeks to organize and sort out my life at home before going away for 3 months (which actually led to 14 months and then was posted away from home for another - as yet undetermined number of years).



Right. Let's not forget to ADD some facts here to paint a better picture of reality.  You volunteered, applied and knew if you were accepted, you'd be leaving.  Trying to make it look like you only had 3 weeks because of the doings of the CF only tells me you applied and then didn't prepare for the reality of a successful application.  THAT is not the result of anything related to the CF.



> As a mother and wife (and various other roles I played in my life), that is not an easy task. I've heard countless times throughout the past year and a half, "did you not sort that out before you got here?", or "you need to sort that out if you want to succeed here"... please, tell me how it is possible to "sort out" family issues that arise with either no comms or limited comms home.



Again, not unique in any way is the concept of being away.  You chose to apply, you accepted and with accepting a life in the CF, this is part of the reality sometimes.  Not just for you, for everyone.  The solution to the problem though, is not 'access to electronics during BMQ".  Maybe you need to learn to let the husband at home deal with things, that what I do when I am away and my wife lets me know when she needs my input.



> You know, I joined this forum to connect with 'like-minded' people who were all a part of the same 'family' and voice my opinion on matters relating to our jobs; and after perusing the site a bit, all I have seen is these so-called 'like-minded' people attack one another for their opinions. I joined the CF because I have a long history of family who have served, have died or been injured serving our country so, that we can be free to voice our opinions.



Thats a myopic view of the site, perhaps you neeed to poke around some more.  Just because you are free to have an opinion doesn't mean I or anyone else is obliged to agree with it.

Serving means being away, everyone joins knowing that.  In essenece, you are complaining about the realities of your own decisions.


----------



## Cpl_lou

Scott said:
			
		

> Maybe you could have put it this way to begin with...?
> 
> I am sorry, but we are not going to agree. If you have such a bad family dynamic that a cell phone is all that stands between happiness and a meltdown then I suggest something a little extra than what an iPhone and a data plan from Rogers can provide. I do not feel much in the way of sympathy, either. Plenty of us have been down this road, plenty of us continue down it as you speak, most without a shred of complaint.
> 
> Your situation is not unique.



Didn't expect anyone to agree. Just putting my opinion out there like everyone else. I don't think my situation is unique, either. There are many people in the same position as me - which is why I think the CF is changing (just not fast enough) - I certainly didn't suggest they change for one person in my situation... but all the others in the same situation. I just have a bit of a problem with the old attitude of "suck it up" and "go without" when not in a life-threatening situation. You are/were a fire fighter?? So you understand completely the detox needed after a difficult call. There are times and places for deprivation and times and places for regrouping/detoxing/re-connecting and healing. Too much/constant deprivation can be devastating to some. I have seen the results of which both in my family and friends (military members/emergency service workers, etc.) and in many of the soldiers I've dealt with in my short time in the military. It's sad... and if you want to give me that group hug now... I'll take it now!


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Cpl_lou said:
			
		

> Life deployed as in overseas? Or life deployed as in away from family for years at a time? Because I've already been gone for well over a year and a half and don't foresee being home with them again for at least 2-4 years.



This must be because of personal or family decisions and NOT related to CF policy; I am very familiar, as are many others, with the CF policy on posting, careeer status CFIRP moves, etc.


----------



## Cpl_lou

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> This must be because of personal or family decisions and NOT related to CF policy; I am very familiar, as are many others, with the CF policy on posting, careeer status CFIRP moves, etc.



Yes, I was away for training for 14 months and then posted away from my family. Family couldn't move because of custody/access and other Gov't job.


----------



## Cpl_lou

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> This must be because of personal or family decisions and NOT related to CF policy; I am very familiar, as are many others, with the CF policy on posting, careeer status CFIRP moves, etc.



Are you well versed in IR/Sep expenses, etc.? I'm in need of some advice on that front.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

32 Pages of info on new policy here


----------



## Scott

Cpl_lou said:
			
		

> Didn't expect anyone to agree. Just putting my opinion out there like everyone else. I don't think my situation is unique, either. There are many people in the same position as me - which is why I think the CF is changing (just not fast enough) - I certainly didn't suggest they change for one person in my situation... but all the others in the same situation. I just have a bit of a problem with the old attitude of "suck it up" and "go without" when not in a life-threatening situation. You are/were a fire fighter?? So you understand completely the detox needed after a difficult call. There are times and places for deprivation and times and places for regrouping/detoxing/re-connecting and healing. Too much/constant deprivation can be devastating to some. I have seen the results of which both in my family and friends (military members/emergency service workers, etc.) and in many of the soldiers I've dealt with in my short time in the military. It's sad... and if you want to give me that group hug now... I'll take it now!



If you're going to reference one of the hats I wear then feel free to educate yourself on the subject before trying to use it to bolster your argument, hmmkay?

As a firefighter I would be VERY concerned if someone could not cope with the basic stressors of life during something as regimented and as safe as training. Junior's got a runny nose and so you failed inspection? Big red flag. Methinks that what some of the lads here, a few of them former CFLRS instructors, BTW, have been saying all along.

Of course I understand the basic need to decompress after a rough call. I also have the *experience* of getting ready to go and be by myself for a moment when the goddamned gong rings and I _have to suck it up _and go again, hug needed or not. As someone who has lived it, I am saying that you're better off "suffering" a little during training than once you get into the field. Simples.


----------



## Cpl_lou

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> 32 Pages of info on new policy here



Thank you!


----------



## Cpl_lou

Scott said:
			
		

> If you're going to reference one of the hats I wear then feel free to educate yourself on the subject before trying to use it to bolster your argument, hmmkay?
> 
> As a firefighter I would be VERY concerned if someone could not cope with the basic stressors of life during something as regimented and as safe as training. Junior's got a runny nose and so you failed inspection? Big red flag. Methinks that what some of the lads here, a few of them former CFLRS instructors, BTW, have been saying all along.
> 
> Of course I understand the basic need to decompress after a rough call. I also have the *experience* of getting ready to go and be by myself for a moment when the goddamned gong rings and I _have to suck it up _and go again, hug needed or not. As someone who has lived it, I am saying that you're better off "suffering" a little during training than once you get into the field. Simples.



Wasn't arguing with you and I have well over 20 years of relevant experience outside of the military myself. I also have friends and family who have done that and other similar jobs. I'm not whining. I was attempting a joke about the hug.


----------



## Cpl_lou

Cpl_lou said:
			
		

> Wasn't arguing with you and I have well over 20 years of relevant experience outside of the military myself. I also have friends and family who have done that and other similar jobs. I'm not whining. I was attempting a joke about the hug.



And I coped fine throughout basic... my son (ADHD, OCD and other issues) - did not!


----------



## MeatheadMick

Cpl_lou said:
			
		

> And I coped fine throughout basic... my son (ADHD, OCD and other issues) - did not!



Perhaps the Military life is not for you or your family then?


----------



## Cpl_lou

MPMick said:
			
		

> Perhaps the Military life is not for you or your family then?



You're right MPMick... if the CF is not able to assist members who have children with special needs, then the military life is NOT for me and my family! As a fellow MP, you would think you would have a little more empathy though.


----------



## Sig_Des

I'll try to offer a perspective, that of someone who's been in just South of 9 years.

You say the Army isn't changing quick enough. I think it's changing too quickly, and not necessarily in the right direction. We're becoming a corporation that's a little too concerned with political correctness and hugs-kisses-coddles. Maybe it's a generational thing, but it seems to me that _some _ people are coming in with a sense of entitlement without the willingness to deal with some of the hardships.

Let's talk about hardships. The military inherently is full of them. That _should_ be an accepted fact. In the 56 months I've been with my wife, I've been away approximately 26 months, including a 10 month tour in Afghanistan. That's about 2.16 years, or 46.42% of our lives together.

When it comes to military families, there has to be an understanding and strength on the part of all members. I was very up front with my spouse of what military life entailed getting into it. We make decisions together. I learned this at an early age, growing up in a military family, which also included several IR separations. I remember getting typewritten letters (YES, Letters!) from my father when he was in the field.

Sometimes, you won't be able to contact your family very frequently. Try a Roto 0 with 1 Satphone between an entire Sqn for calls home. And because we coddle people, that hardship will be multiplied when people are actually faced it.

BMQ seems really hard, but after a few years in, you look back and realize it wasn't really as hard as you thought it was. It's supposed to be your first indoctrination TO hardship. You're supposed to be under the gun. And if there are issues at home, there are options available. That's what FCP, rear parties, compassionates, contact Numbers and Padres are for. Yeah, it's not as convenient as pulling your cell out of your locker. But then army life is inherently inconvenient. 

I'm of a mind that if your head is always at home, then it's not on work. You can't worry about your basement flooding sometimes. You have to trust that your spouse will be able to deal with it. 

Having your head at home on BMQ may lead to a poor showing during inspection.

Having your head at home overseas can lead to much more disastrous results.

If you can't deal with not having a cellphone during basic, IMO (and it's not a very nice one, but I think a realistic one), you should GTFO. And I am neither a dinosaur, nor ignorant of the wellfare of my subordinates.


----------



## Scott

Cpl_lou said:
			
		

> You're right MPMick... if the CF is not able to assist members who have children with special needs, then the military life is NOT for me and my family! As a fellow MP, you would think you would have a little more empathy though.



As a fellow MP he should have more empathy? Really? That is one of the weakest arguments I have ever seen here. Besides which, you are taking what he said completely out of context to further your hissy fit.

I do not know this for a fact, but I o feel pretty confident in it and am sure others would agree:
Let's give the masses who have been waiting for quite some time a choice - keep waiting per normal, or, get into BMQ and start the acreer right now but ditch the gadgets for the BMQ phase.

What do you think would be the more popular choice?

I am sorry you have such serious issues facing you. Perhaps you should have considered another line of work. The CF does not owe you your job, nor do they need to change specifically to suit you.

Edit: Beadwindow summed it up rather nicely, no need for me to continue. And MilPoints inbound.


----------



## Cpl_lou

Beadwindow 7 said:
			
		

> I'll try to offer a perspective, that of someone who's been in just South of 9 years.
> 
> You say the Army isn't changing quick enough. I think it's changing too quickly, and not necessarily in the right direction. We're becoming a corporation that's a little too concerned with political correctness and hugs-kisses-coddles. Maybe it's a generational thing, but it seems to me that _some _ people are coming in with a sense of entitlement without the willingness to deal with some of the hardships.
> 
> Let's talk about hardships. The military inherently is full of them. That _should_ be an accepted fact. In the 56 months I've been with my wife, I've been away approximately 26 months, including a 10 month tour in Afghanistan. That's about 2.16 years, or 46.42% of our lives together.
> 
> When it comes to military families, there has to be an understanding and strength on the part of all members. I was very up front with my spouse of what military life entailed getting into it. We make decisions together. I learned this at an early age, growing up in a military family, which also included several IR separations. I remember getting typewritten letters (YES, Letters!) from my father when he was in the field.
> 
> Sometimes, you won't be able to contact your family very frequently. Try a Roto 0 with 1 Satphone between an entire Sqn for calls home. And because we coddle people, that hardship will be multiplied when people are actually faced it.
> 
> BMQ seems really hard, but after a few years in, you look back and realize it wasn't really as hard as you thought it was. It's supposed to be your first indoctrination TO hardship. You're supposed to be under the gun. And if there are issues at home, there are options available. That's what FCP, rear parties, compassionates, contact Numbers and Padres are for. Yeah, it's not as convenient as pulling your cell out of your locker. But then army life is inherently inconvenient.
> 
> I'm of a mind that if your head is always at home, then it's not on work. You can't worry about your basement flooding sometimes. You have to trust that your spouse will be able to deal with it.
> 
> Having your head at home on BMQ may lead to a poor showing during inspection.
> 
> Having your head at home overseas can lead to much more disastrous results.
> 
> If you can't deal with not having a cellphone during basic, IMO (and it's not a very nice one, but I think a realistic one), you should GTFO. And I am neither a dinosaur, nor ignorant of the wellfare of my subordinates.



When I'm on shift, I'm all about work. When I'm off shift, I'm all about family. I've learned to switch it on and off; however it's not as easy for a civilian family member to live with that. I agree that you must have your head in the game when at work... when at work! When you're not working, you should be able to deal with issues that arise. 

As for an understanding of strength for all parties involved in your life... you can ask that of your spouse but how can you ask that of your children? Especially ones with special needs?


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Cpl_lou said:
			
		

> You're right MPMick... if the CF is not able to assist members who have children with special needs, then the military life is NOT for me and my family! As a fellow MP, you would think you would have a little more empathy though.



WTF does being a MP have to do with it?  Why do you have this expectation for others to trod the same path of thinking you do?  You have a child with special needs, understood.  Then why did you join and leave?  Personal choice to do so, and now the CF should do what because of it?  

:

/tangent

Joining the CF, aka "the service' as it was commonly referred to, means you have a desire to serve your country and that the duties you perform are in the service of Canada.  All of us who make this choice, make it knowing that we will be called away, to perform our duties.  It is simply a part of the job description, full stop.   People are told this while applying, during Basic, trades training, etc etc etc.

Accepting a career offer in the military means _accepting the way of life in the mililtary _ as well.  You can't join the CF with the expectations of the comforts found in civilian professions where they don't have to go away, move around the country, all of that stuff.  If you don't want to move, or deploy, then the MILITARY IS NOT FOR YOU.  If you have a family that can't/won't relocate, then you should not expect to serve and reside with them.  It is simply ri-fucking-diculous to join the CF and expect you will be home every night like your friend Johny/Jane, who is the Produce Manager at Sobeys down the road.

Canadians volunteer to join the CF, for whatever reasons, they do it freely.  With that choice comes realities, some good and some bad.  If you make a choice to lace up the boots that then doesn't meet your every need and want, remember first and foremost that YOU made the choice to join/serve.  Either accept the realities, or get out and see if Sobey's is still hiring so  you can be home every night.

/tangent ends

I am tired of people whining because the CF doesn't meet their needs.  

Cpl Lou, according to your own post, your family isn't with you right now because of access issues and a spouse's gov't job.  Neither of those are the CF's responsibilities or causes.

Unhappy with being away?  THAT I can understand.  Everyone in the CF has/is/will go thru that and 'in our big family', yes we understand and even sympathize, from a BTDT perspective.

Whining that the CF doesn't do enough for you and your 'special needs'?  I don't think you'll get a 'there, there' Sheldon Cooper reply here..  :

It seems to me you are blaming the CF for the realities of your own life choices.  Think about that for a second....does that make sense?

If you can't deal with the realities of your life that you created prior to joining the service combined with the realities of being in the service, then yes you should release, go home and find whatever makes you happy, and create that open spot for the Canadian who is waiting patiently for their chance to serve.


----------



## Sig_Des

Cpl_lou said:
			
		

> When I'm on shift, I'm all about work. When I'm off shift, I'm all about family. I've learned to switch it on and off; however it's not as easy for a civilian family member to live with that. I agree that you must have your head in the game when at work... when at work! When you're not working, you should be able to deal with issues that arise.



I'm of the mind that when on BMQ, it's not like a training week at a bank. It's preparing you, not for a job, but by means of immersion into a lifestyle.

I find too many people are looking at the military as just a stable job, but once again, that's a personal opinion.



> As for an understanding of strength for all parties involved in your life... you can ask that of your spouse but how can you ask that of your children? Especially ones with special needs?



That's where you have to take a deep and hard look at the balance between your family requirements and the exigencies of service. By the same reasoning, you've accepted unlimited liability (or should have), but your children haven't. Should you ask your child to accept that should you give up your life?

If someone can't accept that, they should reconsider the military lifestyle. But that should be  is  a personal choice.


----------



## OldSolduer

Beadwindow 7 said:
			
		

> I'm of the mind that when on BMQ, it's not like a training week at a bank. It's preparing you, not for a job, but by means of immersion into a lifestyle.
> 
> I find too many people are looking at the military as just a stable job.



And many of us agree with you.


----------



## Cpl_lou

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> WTF does being a MP have to do with it?  Why do you have this expectation for others to trod the same path of thinking you do?  You have a child with special needs, understood.  Then why did you join and leave?  Personal choice to do so, and now the CF should do what because of it?
> 
> :
> 
> /tangent
> 
> Joining the CF, aka "the service' as it was commonly referred to, means you have a desire to serve your country and that the duties you perform are in the service of Canada.  All of us who make this choice, make it knowing that we will be called away, to perform our duties.  It is very simply as a part of the job description, full stop.   People are told this while applying, during Basic, trades training, etc etc etc.
> 
> Accepting a career offer in the military means _accepting the way of life in the mililtary _ as well.  You can't join the CF with the expectations of the comforts found in civilian professions where they don't have to go away, move around the country, all of that stuff.  If you don't want to move, or deploy, then the MILITARY IS NOT FOR YOU.  If you have a family that can't/won't relocate, then you should not expect to serve and reside with them.  It is simply ri-fucking-diculous to join the CF and expect you will be home every night like your friend Johny/Jane, who is the Produce Manager at Sobeys down the road.
> 
> Canadians volunteer to join the CF, for whatever reasons, they do it freely.  With that choice comes realities, some good and some bad.  If you make a choice to lace up the boots that then doesn't meet your every need and want, remember first and foremost that YOU made the choice to join/serve.  Either accept the realities, or get out and see if Sobey's is still hiring so  you can be home every night.
> 
> /tangent ends
> 
> I am tired of people whining because the CF doesn't meet their needs.
> 
> Cpl Lou, according to your own post, your family isn't with you right now because of access issues and a spouse's gov't job.  Neither of those are the CF's responsibilities or causes.
> 
> Unhappy with being away?  THAT I can understand.  Everyone in the CF has/is/will go thru that and 'in our big family', yes we understand and even sympathize, from a BTDT perspective.
> 
> Whining that the CF doesn't do enough for you and your 'special needs'?  I don't think you'll get a 'there, there' Sheldon Cooper reply here..  :
> 
> It seems to me you are blaming the CF for the realities of your own life choices.  Think about that for a second....does that make sense?
> 
> If you can't deal with the realities of your life that you created prior to joining the service combined with the realities of being in the service, then yes you should release, go home and find whatever makes you happy, and create that open spot for the Canadian who is waiting patiently for their chance to serve.



Did any one of you actually read all of my posts or are you simply responding to the latest ones that you see and disagree with? I don't believe the military owes ME anything. I am simply stated  that if the CF wants to keep their members after putting all of the time, effort and money into training them, then it might be beneficial to TRY to accommodate their families somehow! Why am I a whiner or not suitable for a military lifestyle because I'm thinking of my family?


----------



## Sig_Des

Cpl_lou said:
			
		

> I am simply stated  that if the CF wants to keep their members after putting all of the time, effort and money into training them, then it might be beneficial to TRY to accommodate their families somehow!



And as I replied, the military DOES accomodate with what it has available. Family Care Plans, compassionate postings and leaves, Padres and the like.

But things STILL aren't always going to be hunky-dory, and it does a disservice to members to not prepare them for those times.


----------



## MeatheadMick

Cpl_lou said:
			
		

> When I'm on shift, I'm all about work. When I'm off shift, I'm all about family. I've learned to switch it on and off; however it's not as easy for a civilian family member to live with that. I agree that you must have your head in the game when at work... when at work! When you're not working, you should be able to deal with issues that arise.
> 
> As for an understanding of strength for all parties involved in your life... you can ask that of your spouse but how can you ask that of your children? Especially ones with special needs?



I understand where you're coming from... however, what I'm trying to get at is if you have all of these personal problems perhaps the military is not the place you need to be. Especially in our line of work, your head needs to be completely on the job. You can't just turn it on, turn it off... that's BS. If you've been away from your family for 14 months +, your mind is not always going to be on the job. 12 hours that turns into 15 hours after an incident when paper-work needs to be completed has a tendency of making your mind wander to the bigger and brighter.

This was never intended to be a personal attack, although it seems you took it to be that way. You're going to be dealing with other members of the military who have other personal problems and it's your responsibility to be in check of your own. Even if you were at home with your children, nothing is saying you're going to be in the same position forever. I grew up in a military family, my dad was gone a lot and we were posted every few years. There's difficulties to the career you've chosen and if you're too soft to deal with them, or your family can't take the separation, there's always different careers available.

I'm sorry the CF poses these difficulties for you, however I'm sure they were explained to you before you signed on the dotted line.


----------



## Cpl_lou

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> And many of us agree with you.



I joined because I have a long history of friends and family who have served, are currently serving, who have died serving, who have been injured - physically and psychologically and I wanted to be a part of that bigger family. I didn't whine when I couldn't use my phone... I stated in my first post that I was not allowed to use it. I also stated that my situation is not unique. I am tired of hearing that the military is not for me because I have family, or a child with special needs. I am not saying I have "sacrificed"... I'm not a martyr... and I have not experienced real sacrifice (in the military) like the bulk of the members on here seem to already have done. I simply stated a rather unpopular opinion, as it would seem - to a crowd of instructors and long-serving members who have come from the old school of thought. I am sorry my opinions are so unpopular but telling me "the military lifestyle is not for me and my family" or to "GTFO", or "stop whining" is not helpful.


----------



## Cpl_lou

MPMick said:
			
		

> I understand where you're coming from... however, what I'm trying to get at is if you have all of these personal problems perhaps the military is not the place you need to be. Especially in our line of work, your head needs to be completely on the job. You can't just turn it on, turn it off... that's BS. If you've been away from your family for 14 months +, your mind is not always going to be on the job. 12 hours that turns into 15 hours after an incident when paper-work needs to be completed has a tendency of making your mind wander to the bigger and brighter.
> 
> This was never intended to be a personal attack, although it seems you took it to be that way. You're going to be dealing with other members of the military who have other personal problems and it's your responsibility to be in check of your own. Even if you were at home with your children, nothing is saying you're going to be in the same position forever. I grew up in a military family, my dad was gone a lot and we were posted every few years. There's difficulties to the career you've chosen and if you're too soft to deal with them, or your family can't take the separation, there's always different careers available.
> 
> I'm sorry the CF poses these difficulties for you, however I'm sure they were explained to you before you signed on the dotted line.



I am 42 YOA with several years of dealing with victims of violence and much more... that is all.


----------



## aesop081

Cpl_lou said:
			
		

> I am 42 YOA with several years of dealing with victims of violence and much more... that is all.



...and the price of tea in China is what, again ?


----------



## Cpl_lou

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> ...and the price of tea in China is what, again ?



Wasn't talking to you.

I think I've been very respectful to you all so far, despite your more than adversarial approach to debates. I'm out!


----------



## Allgunzblazing

I am not a CF member. My association with the military has been through my father and brother. My brother and I spent our childhood shuttling from one base to another (in India), every few years. 

India is surrounded from all four corners by very friendly neighbours. Because of this our father used to be gone for months on end. We were told that the unit or brigade was going for routine exercises, but now that I'm older - I know that many of those were Counter Insurgency Operations. One exercise which I still remember was Operation Brasstacks - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Brasstacks. Our entire cantonment had become a ghost town for a few months. My mother and us boys had absolutely NO contact with our father. 

In all this, I don't ever remember complaining about our father's absence. Neither did my brother or our friends. We just accepted that as a part of normal life. 

Now, I understand that times have changed and that is a different country I'm talking about. But still - aren't the expectations from a soldier pretty much the same in any country? Like I've said, I'm not a soldier. So please excuse my ignorance.


----------



## Sig_Des

Cpl_lou said:
			
		

> Wasn't talking to you.
> 
> I think I've been very respectful to you all so far, despite your more than adversarial approach to debates. I'm out!



And here I was, trying to be non-confrontational. **** it, Meh.


----------



## Scott

Cpl_lou said:
			
		

> Wasn't talking to you.
> 
> I think I've been very respectful to you all so far, despite your more than adversarial approach to debates. I'm out!



 :'(

Christ, you can't take criticism, can you? It was not adversarial at all, quit whining.

So, you're like done-done now? Or is this another pump fake?


----------



## MeatheadMick

Cpl_lou said:
			
		

> <snip> I am sorry my opinions are so unpopular but telling me "the military lifestyle is not for me and my family" or to "GTFO", or "stop whining" is not helpful.



Well it seems you were trying to open up a topic of discussion relating on "change" in the military... or the "softer" military that so many of us are experiencing and having a hard time coping with. The military was never developed to be easy... if it were easy everyone would do it, and the MP's would have a hell of a lot more to do. How can you go say we aren't being helpful when your 5th post was to "disengage" because you didn't agree with what was being said?

You haven't even had to experience most hardships that come with being in the military... this is why I think the MP trade should still have the private rank... instant promotions lead to a small fraction of people that are part of the 'entitled' generation...



			
				Cpl_lou said:
			
		

> I am 42 YOA with several years of dealing with victims of violence and much more... that is all.



Age has nothing to do with anything... I'm 24... I've been in since I was 17... I never had to experience the 'old' ways either... but even in my 7 years of service I've seen a change within the CF. Not necessarily the service, but with some of the people that are in it.


----------



## aesop081

Cpl_lou said:
			
		

> who have come from the old school of thought.



The "old school of thought" ?

I'm a 37 year-old single parent posted to a high-ops tempo unit. I know about family issues as I not only look after my own, but those of 30 other people. I am familiar enough with every program the CF has for assistance in order to provide useful advice to all my subordinates. I spend 5-6 months of every year on the road. I deployed last year to combat ops on 3 hours notice.......as a single parent. I live tied to a cell phone and often go away in the middle of the night with no ETA back at home. Sometimes I come back a few hours later, sometimes a few days later and, like last year, months later. I often can't easily call home and often cannot even mention where i went and for what. I still manage to take care of my family, without the benefit of another parent.

I lived away from my kids for 5 years before re-gaining custody. I had them for 2 then was posted and lost custody for another year. Got posted again......

Yeah..."old school"  :


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Cpl_lou said:
			
		

> I am tired of hearing that the military is not for me because I have family, or a child with special needs.



The issue is not that you have a family and kids (I have a spouse, my own child who lives with her mom, and 2 step-children).   The issue is the realities of your life choices before CF service combined with the realities of CF service now that you face along with a spouse/family who can't/won't move to your posting location for reasons outside the CF. 

Initially your contention was that IGadgets should be allowed during BMQ so 'people can deal with life/school/kids issues' and we have tried to say to you and get you to see:

1.  BMQ is designed/geared to climatize people to military life, or to start the process at the very least.  Part of the reality of military life is NOT being there to deal with life/school/kids issues all the time and it is important for the CF mbr and his/her family   to begin to learn how to manage that during BMQ; it is part of the training and adaptation to military life IMO regardless of it is a PO check or not.  Learning to do it now and accepting the loss of contact/comm's with family and ability to deal with day to day issues is part of the learning curve new CF members have to deal with and it is best to start that process right from the get-go; that is at CFLRS.

2. The realities of personal life choices and CF requirements don't always play well with each other.  In your case, you have a child with special needs.  Your family has restrictions on moving because of child access issues and a spouse with gov't job who won't move.  These realities are a result of personal choices made by you / your spouse and aren't in any way related to service in the CF.

3.   During the Basic portion of trg, or any trg, any CF member has ALL KINDS of resources avail to them in the event of a real life, no duff emergency.  There ARE things in place for these situations.  I've seen them used before many times during 14 years where I was tasked a large portion of that time as course staff/instructor.   That is why I say your contention that the CF doesn't accomodate mbrs with needs is wrong/misleading.


I'm going to take a WAG that the 'CF should TRY to accomodate' stuff you've been mentioning is because your family is actually located in a location where there is a CF base/Wing/Station/etc and that you had hoped for a posting there after the MPA in Borden, but you've been posted to a different location and are frustrated because you can't get a posting to where they are.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> 1.  BMQ is designed/geared to climatize people to military life, or to start the process at the very least.  Part of the reality of military life is NOT being there to deal with life/school/kids issues all the time and it is important for the CF mbr and his/her family   to begin to learn how to manage that during BMQ; it is part of the training and adaptation to military life IMO regardless of it is a PO check or not.  Learning to do it now and accepting the loss of contact/comm's with family and ability to deal with day to day issues is part of the learning curve new CF members have to deal with and it is best to start that process right from the get-go; that is at CFLRS.



I'll second this.


Why is it so hard to understand? One of the effects of basic training is to remove future soldiers from their comfort zones.
-Introduce them to physical and mental stresses.
-A restricted diet
-Restricted privacy
-Confined living conditions
-Require working with idiots you'd rather punch in the face, but you can't.
-Picking up the slack of people not pulling their weight.
-Stress of being away from home including NOT being able to contact your wife husband kids when you want to.

Kinda like what you might see oh I don't know, on peacekeeping or warfighting.


"Times change" doesn't hold water when you're deployed to a country where you're exposed to the conditions above, while people are trying to kill you.

If you new guys can't deal with this type of life style don't join.  

Because if you can't deal with it but manage to squirm your way through all that happens is you turn into the guys who fake injuries and family emergencies to get out of exercises and deployments.

Edited to add speaking in general terms not towards '1234 specifically.


----------



## OldSolduer

Everyone take a chill pill. We are on the same team....right? 


We're a bit off topic here, may I suggest that we take this to PM land?

Thank you.


----------



## Maxadia

Jim's right, there's not much one here regarding electronics during Basic anymore....either the thread needs split, or put back on topic.


----------



## pthebeau

RDJP said:
			
		

> Jim's right, there's not much one here regarding electronics during Basic anymore....either the thread needs split, or put back on topic.



Agreed.  I'd say delete everything from mid-page 15 onwards, but I quite enjoyed the excellent lessons being taught to the self-pitying.
I'll go ahead and put things back on topic.

According to the CFLRS guide, you are allowed cell phones on weekends of weeks 1, 2 and 3.  (Does that include Friday after hours?)
You are then allowed cell phones on evenings after 6 for the remaining weeks, and are allowed other electronics on the weekend.
This is, of course, if there are no restrictions imposed onto you or your platoon.

My question that I would like insight on:
I'm going to bring my cell phone, but I was also considering bringing a Tablet.  My intention was to use it for Skype on the weekends for a quick chat with my girlfriend or parents, with the luxury of video (since I don't have Face Time, being on Android).  It is indeed a luxury and can easily be dispensed. However, I thought the Tablet may come in handy (like waiting around in Trudeau, more down time than expect on weekends, light bathroom reading, etc...).  Am I better off leaving it at home?

I understand that "civy lockup" is where your luggage and personal belongings are stored.  Is that what people refer to as "personal kit"?

Cheers!

Pat


----------



## half-pint

I did basic back in the early 2000's (when it was still called BOTC). I don't even think I had a cell phone then and I survived just fine. My husband just completed BMQ last summer and was in one of the only platoons that were not allowed the use of electronics in the first 4 weeks and after that, only on weekends. All the other platoons were allowed total access to their electronics. My husband and I, especially my husband, live on our phones. HOWEVER, we survived just fine and I actually think it made the times we could talk and our letters to each other more special. There were guys on his platoon that received special leave to go home to see their wives/gfs/fiancées because they couldn't handle being apart. I know of at least two who have VRed since. I'm of the opinion of many others on here; basic is a place where you are faced with the extremes to see how you can handle it. If you cannot handle being apart for 4 months of training, how are you going to handle being deployed in a war zone where you can't check in every evening because rounds are flying past your head?!?  You may not like it, but IMHO, that's the military, so deal with it. Listen, I may have to do basic again in a few weeks and I was/am completely prepared to be incommunicado for a few months. Just my  :2c:

 :moose:


----------



## aesop081

half-pint said:
			
		

> There were guys on his platoon that received special leave to go home to see their wives/gfs/fiancées because they couldn't handle being apart.



They should have been released immediately. I would prefer "released and tarred & feathered" but I have to manage my expectations.



> I know of at least two who have VRed since.



Good.


----------



## MeatheadMick

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> They should have been released immediately. I would prefer "released and tarred & feathered" but I have to manage my expectations.
> 
> Good.



Oh CA you bitter bitter person   I like it.


----------



## aesop081

MPMick said:
			
		

> Oh CA you bitter bitter person   I like it.



I'm not bitter, just very confident of my understanding of the realities of this line of work.

Crusty, maybe.........


----------



## Sub_Guy

half-pint said:
			
		

> There were guys on his platoon that received special leave to go home to see their wives/gfs/fiancées because they couldn't handle being apart.



Am I supposed to beleive that?  I am sure someone probably got special leave, but I doubt it had anything to do with them not being able to deal with the separation.  Either way there is something missing.

As for electronics on BMQ, let them.  I had electronics on mine, a big fat yellow Sony Walkman, I also had the services of a payphone if I wanted to call I had time to call.  I think having the guys/gals piss away their time on BMQ with electronics is an excellent way to weed people out, because they won't make it.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> Am I supposed to beleive that?  I am sure someone probably got special leave, but I doubt it had anything to do with them not being able to deal with the separation.  Either way there is something missing.



Yea, I call bullshit.


----------



## 2 Cdo

half-pint said:
			
		

> There were guys on his platoon that received special leave to go home to see their wives/gfs/fiancées because they couldn't handle being apart. I know of at least two who have VRed since.



I'm thinking hubby doesn't have all the facts. I would bet that it was something a little more serious than not being able to handle being apart.


----------



## ExquisitelyChic

I'm just a spouse and I don't see what happens behind the scenes, but I like the cell phone policy they currently have in place. I don't know what I'd do if right off the bat I couldn't hear from my fiance until the first 5 weeks were over. I know it's a matter of "if you can't handle that, good luck with the rest of it" BUT its particularly tough when your first impression of the military is so rough. Not being able to see him is bad enough, but he and I wouldn't be able to make it through this if we couldn't talk, and I'm sure that if I told him I couldn't do it anymore he'd quit. I think it's good, maybe not on the work side of things, but for sure on the family side. Anything to help the spouses/girlfriends/boyfriends/children out is a good thing I think, happy family = harder working recruit.

Not to mention, although they're allowed their devices, it's still strict. During the first 5 weeks they can only use their phones for a half hour a day, no pictures allowed, period, after the 5 weeks I can't really tell what the rules are, neither can my fiance so he calls me for the half hour they were allowed before. Most of the guys, in his section at least, follow the rules. If they break the rules they are reprimanded by having their phones taken for a few days, a week, etc etc.


----------



## AshleyK

On my BMQ/BMQ-L I was at LFAATC Aldershot. Technology was allowed on your free time from the very beginning of the course. A new feature that had been recently installed in barracks and the junior ranks mess... Wifi! It was surprising, but not a luxury you had much time to enjoy. 
The barracks in Aldershot aren't cellphone friendly. Making a phone-call involved hanging out the window or going outside - but let's face it - you don't have much time. A five-minute phone call home was really all the time you had - if that. 
The instructors all had cellphones and used them quite frequently. Many people on course (myself included) were brave to keep their cellphones in their pockets for some entertainment during break times. Just as long as you kept them on silent and the instructors didn't catch you with them out any other time, you were fine.
I think allowing technology on basic training is good as long as they don't interfere with training - a couple phone-calls home to hear family/friends' encouragement gives you that extra morale boost some days. Kept me going more than once during BMQ-L.


----------



## west_coaster

I am 38, and I will be in basic training this yr. So, you are telling me that I will be allowed to have my cell on me at certain times of training? I can understand if you are having a break or it is time to relax so you can message family quickly. Other than that, recruites should not have their phones or any electronic devices on them at all.


----------



## secondchance

Usually it is time after 6 p.m. when you return back after classes.
I'm saying about CFLRS.


----------



## Kat Stevens

west_coaster said:
			
		

> I am 38, and I will be in basic training this yr. So, you are telling me that I will be allowed to have my cell on me at certain times of training? I can understand if you are having a break or it is time to relax so you can message family quickly. Other than that, recruites should not have their phones or any electronic devices on them at all.



Then be an example and leave yours in the barracks, it's a privilege, not a requirement.


----------



## Jarnhamar

AshleyK said:
			
		

> The instructors all had cellphones and used them quite frequently.



Which in my opinion they shouldn't if the rules are candidates can't either.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

The instructors aren't under an indoc period though so....


----------



## Jarnhamar

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> The instructors aren't under an indoc period though so....



No but I still think it looks bad.
'You guys need to learn to live without your cell phones, one sec I have a text'.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Hmmm, true that.  From that perspective, not in front of the course seems to be appropriate.


----------



## jeffb

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Hmmm, true that.  From that perspective, not in front of the course seems to be appropriate.



Fair enough but I am sure that there are times when actual course coordination is going on through texting. I've never taught at CFLRS but I can see how in such a large building it would be much easier to text back and forth between instructors to coordinate.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

True that too...when I was there, it was a PITA to run from down by Wpns or Supply to the bullpen (B Div at the time, across from the Canex/next to the Mess).

**  ESPECIALLY for coffee and toast at 10!


----------



## Pandora114

Not gonna bring my gadgets.  I don't have a cell phone, but I have an Ipad and a laptop.  Both are staying home, if I don't have that stuff I won't be distracted from doing what needs to be done.  I know me.  Family can live without hearing from me for a bit. Will do em good.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Being on the outside (in the recruitment process) it's hard for me to gauge the full impact either for or against this change (or any policy change for that matter).  But I can definitely understand why there is so much contention with the issue among longer-serving personnel.

All I know is that when I first brought my intentions of applying to the CF forward (to my husband & family), we were all under the impression that communication would be scarce during BMQ and probably afterwards for quite a while during subsequent training, getting my feet wet, etc., or if I'm deployed.  I never thought for a minute that I would be allowed to text, message, carry a cell or what-have-you and always pictured BMQ as being do-what-you're-told-when-and-only-when, and nothing more.  This was not the easiest of decisions, because of the fact that I have a young one and knew that the separation would not only be difficult for me but for him as well. 

Anyway, my point is that I knew what I was getting into before I applied.  I was well aware that there may be periods of time where it won't be feasible to contact family--and that it may even be lengthy.  I'm unclear as to what people are expecting?  If you join the Military, Military comes first--that's what I've been told and what I understand. In addition to this, I don't want to be distracted.  And I'll be totally honest, if I'm successful I don't want to screw up in any way or do anything that will bring negative attention in my direction if I can help it.  I'm expecting it to be hard. I'm expecting it to be lonely. I'm expecting it to test me--that's what I thought I was signing up for. If the CF has functioned this long without cell phones at BMQ, why do they need to change that?

(If there's some sort of family emergency, they can contact you in some fashion anyway, can't they? Maybe not, I don't know, but I personally don't agree with having personal electronic devices while at BMQ/on course. Tthat's just my personal  :2c


----------



## 0010bravo

I'm happy to have a cell phone while in basic. Like many I have kids and this is going to be hard on them. Using it in the evenings for five minute face time can go along way in morale for me and at home.. Other than that the phone stays in a box and will not be carried around.


----------



## half-pint

Shuck10 said:
			
		

> Being on the outside (in the recruitment process) it's hard for me to gauge the full impact either for or against this change (or any policy change for that matter).  But I can definitely understand why there is so much contention with the issue among longer-serving personnel.
> 
> All I know is that when I first brought my intentions of applying to the CF forward (to my husband & family), we were all under the impression that communication would be scarce during BMQ and probably afterwards for quite a while during subsequent training, getting my feet wet, etc., or if I'm deployed.  I never thought for a minute that I would be allowed to text, message, carry a cell or what-have-you and always pictured BMQ as being do-what-you're-told-when-and-only-when, and nothing more.  This was not the easiest of decisions, because of the fact that I have a young one and knew that the separation would not only be difficult for me but for him as well.
> 
> Anyway, my point is that I knew what I was getting into before I applied.  I was well aware that there may be periods of time where it won't be feasible to contact family--and that it may even be lengthy.  I'm unclear as to what people are expecting?  If you join the Military, Military comes first--that's what I've been told and what I understand. In addition to this, I don't want to be distracted.  And I'll be totally honest, if I'm successful I don't want to screw up in any way or do anything that will bring negative attention in my direction if I can help it.  I'm expecting it to be hard. I'm expecting it to be lonely. I'm expecting it to test me--that's what I thought I was signing up for. If the CF has functioned this long without cell phones at BMQ, why do they need to change that?
> 
> (If there's some sort of family emergency, they can contact you in some fashion anyway, can't they? Maybe not, I don't know, but I personally don't agree with having personal electronic devices while at BMQ/on course. Tthat's just my personal  :2c



I think you're the prime example of someone who has planned and thought this career choice through.  I think what most people on here are trying to articulate is that BMQ/BMOQ is a tool to measure one's suitability in a military environment.  If you cannot handle being incommunicado for the 5 week indoctrination  period, what will you do when its 5 months and you don't know if your spouse is alive or dead.  I commend you for preparing yourself and your family for the worst case scenario and for the sometimes hard military life.  It sounds like you have a great support system and I just wish more people thought like you, then maybe we'd have less people VRing.


----------



## zander1976

I love my wife but I know that without the limited contact I would find BMQ very difficult (She will complain and I will feel bad). We both need the time apart to get prepared for the change. The separation will force my wife to become less dependent on me so in the future I won't be getting calls about the bug that just ran across the floor.


----------



## Journeyman

I know I'll hate myself for posting in here, but......





			
				half-pint said:
			
		

> .......what will you do when its 5 months and you don't know if your spouse is alive or dead.



Could you provide one example, preferably from actual military experience rather than "a friend's dead uncle had heard," of someone going five months completely incommunicado and not knowing if a spouse was alive or dead.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

half-pint said:
			
		

> I think you're the prime example of someone who has planned and thought this career choice through.  I think what most people on here are trying to articulate is that BMQ/BMOQ is a tool to measure one's suitability in a military environment.  If you cannot handle being incommunicado for the 5 week indoctrination  period, what will you do when its 5 months and you don't know if your spouse is alive or dead.  I commend you for preparing yourself and your family for the worst case scenario and for the sometimes hard military life.  It sounds like you have a great support system and I just wish more people thought like you, then maybe we'd have less people VRing.



Thank you Half-pint.  

For other readers, don't get me wrong, I in no way am disparaging anyone's thoughts and feelings who are in favour of cells and such. I absolutely understand it--I don't agree with it, but i understand it. I'm just surprised that such a change was implemented is all.  I hadn't even thought of the possibility of anyone being allowed until I started coming across it on the boards...


----------



## Scott

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I know I'll hate myself for posting in here, but......
> Could you provide one example, preferably from actual military experience rather than "a friend's dead uncle had heard," of someone going five months completely incommunicado and not knowing if a spouse was alive or dead.



That wasn't a disguised way to bail from a relationship...


----------



## half-pint

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I know I'll hate myself for posting in here, but......
> Could you provide one example, preferably from actual military experience rather than "a friend's dead uncle had heard," of someone going five months completely incommunicado and not knowing if a spouse was alive or dead.



That was a hyperbole.  :


----------



## Journeyman

half-pint said:
			
		

> That was a hyperbole.  :


Perfect. The overwhelming percentage of people posting to these Recruiting threads can't even comprehend hyperbole, let alone spell it. Thanks.

 :  <-- right back at ya...with equal value


----------



## Rafterman1

Pandora114 said:
			
		

> Not gonna bring my gadgets.  I don't have a cell phone, but I have an Ipad and a laptop.  Both are staying home, if I don't have that stuff I won't be distracted from doing what needs to be done.  I know me.  Family can live without hearing from me for a bit. Will do em good.



Bring them.  You will go crazy on the wknds if you dont.


----------



## Pandora114

Rafterman1 said:
			
		

> Bring them.  You will go crazy on the wknds if you dont.



Good point.  I don't think my family would appreciate me drinking my pay away every weekend.  Getting a little too old for that.  Doubt my liver can handle that kind of abuse anymore.   I'll discuss it with my husband to see what would be best in that regard.


----------



## Scott

half-pint said:
			
		

> That was a hyperbole.  :



So, no fact based example? I'm dying to know if I could have based former lies on some half truth.


----------



## Maxadia

half-pint said:
			
		

> That was a hyperbole.  :



More like comparing a paper cut to an amputation.


----------



## secondchance

zander1976 said:
			
		

> I love my wife but I know that without the limited contact I would find BMQ very difficult (She will complain and I will feel bad). We both need the time apart to get prepared for the change. The separation will force my wife to become less dependent on me so in the future I won't be getting calls about the bug that just ran across the floor.


+1,
When I was in BMOQ first time,having cell phone helped my wife to pass through time when I was not near her.
In my humble opinion if there is opportunity to use tools of communications use it. It is not for you first of all.It is for your family members - wives, husbands, children etc. You don't need to build artificial difficulties for yourself.Because your relatives can get it.If you have permission and opportunity using tools of communication why not to use? Maybe sometimes you will have situation when you can not use it like being on the mission.Then there is not choice. But now, at CFLRS there are also payphones and you can give a call to your family member even once a week.It helps , believe me.


----------



## Towards_the_gap

Rafterman1 said:
			
		

> Bring them.  You will go crazy on the wknds if you dont.



I was about to write a whole rant about actually getting outside or reading a book on weekends, then realised that as I didn't write it in txt spk, most of those who that comment would be directed to would not be able to read it anyways.


----------



## SentryMAn

I just went 4 weeks without my cell phone while it was getting repaired.

The world continued to turn.

My wife didn't die.

My life didn't change.

Only thing that sucked was when I got my car stuck I had to walk to a neighbors house and get him to help me.

all in all, life went on around me like I still had my phone.

Amazing things.

I also think that having super communication with others produces more problems then it solves.  Always being in contact with someone isn't always a good thing.


----------



## 0010bravo

If I'm able to say goodnight to my 3 year old son via my cell phone every few nights I'm all for it., it will help me and it will help him to know daddy is gone but still loves him..

Thank you for allowing phones for such reasons..


----------



## Kat Stevens

You're welcome, now let me see what I can do about the whole tattoo thing.


----------



## ambernewton04

My husband went through BMQ May-Aug 2012. The CO of his platoon didnt take away their cell phones, but other platoons did. I think it just all depends on how strict of a CO you get. My husband was able to quickly call us every night after 6pm for 5 minutes, but thats all we needed. When he went to Farhnam, I believe weeks 9 and 11, he couldnt call us as he was in the field. That was the longest we went, but bt that time we were so used to him being gone that the week went quickly. When I go to BMQ I will be bringing my laptop so I can skype with my 17 month old daughter. Of course if it is taken away until week 5 then a phone call will have to suffice.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

ambernewton04 said:
			
		

> My husband went through BMQ May-Aug 2012. The CO of his platoon didnt take away their cell phones, but other platoons did. I think it just all depends on how strict of a CO you get. My husband was able to quickly call us every night after 6pm for 5 minutes, but thats all we needed. When he went to Farhnam, I believe weeks 9 and 11, he couldnt call us as he was in the field. That was the longest we went, but bt that time we were so used to him being gone that the week went quickly.  When I go to BMQ I will be bringing my laptop so I can skype with my 17 month old daughter. Of course if it is taken away until week 5 then a phone call will have to suffice.



This.  This is part of the 'indoc' to the CF both members _and_ their families have to do.  Adjust from the start (BMQ), so the REAL seperations, deployments, etc where you ARE cut-off for OPSEC, etc, you can do it without going friggin' _Coo Coo For Cocoa Puffs_.


----------



## ambernewton04

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> This.  This is part of the 'indoc' to the CF both members _and_ their families have to do.  Adjust from the start (BMQ), so the REAL seperations, deployments, etc where you ARE cut-off for OPSEC, etc, you can do it without going friggin' _Coo Coo For Cocoa Puffs_.



I agree. It was tough simply because our daughter was only 7 months old. However, we both knew what we were signing up for before he left. Some days were harder. It was actually nice though to be apart, it really brought us closer together. It was even hard incorprating him back into daily life when he came home. I think once people realize its not the end of the world because you cant talk to your spouse or family for a few days or weeks, then itlll be easier for them. When I go through, my BMQ will be 13 weeks, plus my course training will be 6 months. He was away for 7 months total, I will be away about a year total ( depending on how long I wait for my course ). Agian, we already know what we are in for. If people question whether or not they can handle being away from your spouse, kids, etc for 13+weeks, then maybe people should reconsider their enrollment.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

ambernewton04 said:
			
		

> I agree. It was tough simply because our daughter was only 7 months old. However, we both knew what we were signing up for before he left. Some days were harder. It was actually nice though to be apart, it really brought us closer together. It was even hard incorprating him back into daily life when he came home. I think once people realize its not the end of the world because you cant talk to your spouse or family for a few days or weeks, then itlll be easier for them. When I go through, my BMQ will be 13 weeks, plus my course training will be 6 months. He was away for 7 months total, I will be away about a year total ( depending on how long I wait for my course ). Agian, we already know what we are in for. If people question whether or not they can handle being away from your spouse, kids, etc for 13+weeks, then maybe people should reconsider their enrollment.



Agree 100%.  You need to get on the Recruiting threads and sort that sorry lot of whiners out.   >


----------



## ambernewton04

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Agree 100%.  You need to get on the Recruiting threads and sort that sorry lot of whiners out.   >



Haha I only come to share my personal stories and opinions. I dont want to be the one to personally crush someone's dreams


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Don't crush their dreams...just cyber-slap them until they grown some thick skin and stop saying "me me me me me me".


----------



## ambernewton04

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Don't crush their dreams...just cyber-slap them until they grown some thick skin and stop saying "me me me me me me".



I like you lol. This and many other things really p**s me off about how many people get in and are so ungrateful for the opportunity they are given. I know I am digressing, but when my husband went through, he had at least 3 people get kicked off course from DUI's. Other were kicked off the platoon in basic for DUI's, being charged or swiped too many times. It angers someone like me, who has wanted to be apart of the CF's since I was a child, and have jumped through hoops to get there ( almost there  ). I have to sacrifice being away from my 17month old daughter for a year!! Ya that's gonna be tough as hell, but I know that the benefits will be so much more than the sacrifice.


----------



## OldSolduer

Here is an interesting thought:

It never hurts to suffer some deprivation as long as long term health or safety is not affected. Soldiers do not need wireless internet in the field, nor do they require MP3 players or iPods and iPads in the defensive position, or a camcorder on patrol to upload their latest adventures to You Tube, or their cell phone to check in three times a day with 9er Domestic.  While many of our troops possess some of these electronic devices (and yes I do as well) they are not required when we are deployed on exercise or operations.


----------



## MikeL

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Soldiers do not need....or a camcorder on patrol to upload their latest adventures to You Tube...



While I agree it isn't a requirement to go around with a camera all the time just to get some hero shots and TIC videos for you tube videos,  but they do make for some cool tour videos  

On a serious note,  cameras and helmet cams can be beneficial and used in AARs(training and operations),  photographing people in the area(important people,  suspected bad guys, etc),  as well as some other things.  

Time and place for everything.


----------



## OldSolduer

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> On a serious note,  cameras and helmet cams can be beneficial and used in AARs(training and operations),  photographing people in the area(important people,  suspected bad guys, etc),  as well as some other things.
> 
> Time and place for everything.



This I agree with. BUT there has to be a designated vid/pic guy....not everyone.


----------



## The_Green_Basterd

I always find this topic funny.  I remember having my electronics taken away on my BIQ back in the day.  They would open up the lock up on weekends so people could get the gadgets etc with a condition they were returned Sunday night be a certain timing.  On the second week, my Phone and Camera were found on inspection.  I initially got jacked up and asked why I had my devices.  With my feet together, I told my NCO that my devices were handed over as per instruction on week one but on the first weekend, I discovered that they were left unlocked and thus unsecured over the weekend, (they opened up the locker but didn't lock it up at night etc)  Believe it or not but they didn't challenge me and I kept my stuff for the rest of course.

Now I await the onslaught of challenges to the above statement.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Alright; thought it was time to add some official CFLRS policy into this.  I'll not be posting a "SOP complete", but here are the important parts from Electronic Devices Usage By Candidates:

2.  This SOP applies to candidates on BMQs and all BMOQ serials, except the CHS BMOQ. It does not apply to GMT-IT, PLQ or OC courses. It also excludes WPC candidates, for which appropriate usage is defined in SOP 11-09.

*5.  Prohibited Use*  The following uses are prohibited during basic training at CFLRS. Any candidate found not respecting these will face confiscation of their devices and possible additional admin/disciplinary measures:
a. no electronic devices are authorized to be used/carried during training hours;
b. game consoles are unauthorized at all times and will be confiscated upon arrival; and
c. any type of ear buds/ear phones are not authorized at any time on any devices for security/safety reasons.

*6.  Allowed Use*  The following uses are authorized during basic training at CFLRS. However any abusive usage could lead to confiscation of a candidate’s devices and possible additional administrative/ disciplinary measures:
a. cell phones of all nature can be used on weeknights AFTER training has concluded but no earlier than 1800hrs. Reasonable usage should be restricted to communications with family and friends; and
b. other devices such as MP3s, IPods, IPads, laptops, etc MAY be authorized during the weekends in garrison  if there is no training scheduled and if performance has been judged adequate by the Platoon Commander.

7. As a guideline to define “reasonable usage”, a maximum of 30 minutes per evening  is considered to be reasonable. That does not prevent the instructor from initiating a corrective measure for a lesser usage if the activities of a particular evening justify it.

8. The main corrective measure to be used when an unauthorized/abusive usage of electronic devices is identified will be confiscation. When applied, a confiscation will include all of the candidate’s devices.

10. The length of confiscation will vary depending on the number of offences committed, as such: a first offence will result in a 3 day confiscation, a second offence 7 days and a third one, 3 weeks.

11. At no time will a confiscation be used as a punitive measure. Here are examples of infractions that would justify a confiscation: 
a. insecure devices found during a security inspection;
b. using a device when not authorized;
c. abusive use of a device when usage is permitted;
d. poor preparation for an inspection (layout or common tasks); and
e. homework not completed or late.


----------



## Maxadia

The_Green_Basterd said:
			
		

> With my feet together, I told my NCO that my devices were handed over as per instruction on week one but on the first weekend, I discovered that they were left unlocked and thus unsecured over the weekend, (they opened up the locker but didn't lock it up at night etc)  Believe it or not but they didn't challenge me and I kept my stuff for the rest of course.
> 
> Now I await the onslaught of challenges to the above statement.



Seems perfectly reasonable to me.  It's always a Pandora's Box to take someone's personal devices, unless you know for a fact they can be kept secure.  Otherwise, you open yourself up to all sorts of issues.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

The CFLRS SOP addresses this issue quite nicely IMO.

- candidate retains possession (and responsibility for security) of their device(s), _however_ they go into a container with a seal that is signed by the candidate and instructor.  You can see 'em, but you can't use them.   >


----------



## The_Green_Basterd

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> The CFLRS SOP addresses this issue quite nicely IMO.
> 
> - candidate retains possession (and responsibility for security) of their device(s), _however_ they go into a container with a seal that is signed by the candidate and instructor.  You can see 'em, but you can't use them.   >



That might have come in after my time.  Sometimes its worth to challenged authority.  I'm starting to get into territory I do not know all that much about and is not relevent to this forum, but at least this last summer, the Infantry school at CTC Gagetown was inspecting every persons kit and quarters for explosives upon leaving course.  Now they say it was authorized by the CO, right or wrong I do not know, but this is the same Canadian Forces that lost the right to hold Court Martial about 5 years ago because they were in violation of the Charter of Rights.  This was after dozens of years of court Martial... just no one had challenged it.

Edit:  Parliament quickly passed a law to am mend the court martial process.  http://www.canada.com/story_print.html?id=40c38ebe-6d5d-4e7f-b6d0-e53b0d03dc38&sponsor=


----------



## Eye In The Sky

I think you're misinformed.....court martials still happen.  But lets not derail this thread about CMs.

The SOP I reviewed today was signed off Jan '12.


----------



## west_coaster

But, what are the actual rules/regulations on that though?



			
				Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Then be an example and leave yours in the barracks, it's a privilege, not a requirement.


----------



## Scott

west_coaster said:
			
		

> But, what are the actual rules/regulations on that though?



Jesus. This has to be a record, we don't even have to ask that you do a search, someone posted the rules about five up.


----------



## mld

west_coaster said:
			
		

> But, what are the actual rules/regulations on that though?



 :brickwall:


----------



## Eye In The Sky

west_coaster said:
			
		

> But, what are the actual rules/regulations on that though?



Forgive me, I made it too hard.  My bad.

Click on these underlined words and _magic picture-box  _ will show the rules    :blotto:   Helpful Internet Elves have painted some of the words in the color yellow to make it easy_ and _ fun for the whole family!

* _some assembly required, batteries not included.  Choking hazard for children under 5 and/or stupid adults_.


----------



## DAA

What's even better, is that this information on this topic is provided to CFRCs and is suppose to be provided by Recruiting Centres to all "new" enrollee's...   :facepalm:


----------



## CF_wife

These rules as outlined above are being administered and followed.  My husband is currently at BMQ.  He has his smartphone but it is in lockup until 6pm at night (and even then its always at the discretion of his staffs).  And while he may have access to it, it certainly does not mean he has the time to use it.   Some weeks they are allowed to use it between time X and time X... other nights it's not at all.   

He was told very clearly in his orientation before his swearing in, what he could and could not bring - and even then not to expect to be able to have access to it every evening.  

My only suggestion is get an otterbox or something for your phone.. those floors are hard.. phones shatter easily.  Not that I am speaking from experience or anything


----------



## Loachman

ambernewton04 said:
			
		

> I dont want to be the one to personally crush someone's dreams



You can get used to it, and even come to enjoy it eventually.


----------



## Mudshuvel

I have 2 kids, both under three (at the time), a wife who was helping out my mother who had broken her neck and I didn't even own a cellphone. I lived, whereas the 18 year old on the other side of the wall from me panicked because his girlfriend works at DQ and gets hit on, somehow his iPhone was going to save his relationship.

I saw my uncle survive Cornholis, and they dumbed down portions of BMQ now, hence my survival. BMQ should be less like university. Yea, they want to keep VR's down, how the hell are they going to survive deployments if they can't survive 3 months in basic. Hell, they even get to get those pesky French diseases after 5 weeks.

Repeated and cited much what was said before, but my  :2c:


----------



## Tank Troll

Mudshuvel said:
			
		

> Hell, they even get to get those pesky French diseases after 5 weeks.



Huh? Enlighten me please. What are those pesky French diseases you speak of?


----------



## Jungle

Tank Troll said:
			
		

> Huh? Enlighten me please. What are those pesky French diseases you speak of?



op: Can't wait to hear this...


----------



## NavalMoose

"mal de mer" ?


----------



## medicineman

"Les Pappillons d'amour"?


----------



## PMedMoe

Le clap.


----------



## AshleyDawn

Maybe I'm weird, but having no electronics and no real communication to the outside world for the first few weeks of training, in my opinion, should be part of the experience. I can't even imagine how BMW would have been different if I had my cell phone, or even a laptop. 

I remember being really excited when we were allowed to use the payphone to call home, lol.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Imagine how people feel who can't afford a BMW!!


----------



## Johnny Reb

The only thing I see this being good for is if someone wanted to call home and check up on things or whatever, other than that if you cant handle a couple of weeks without a cellphone, you got problems.


----------



## Smirnoff123

How can you go without a cell phone on BMQ?! How else would you be able to upload hero pics to facebook?? It is imperative that the world sees you aiming your empty C7 at a wall in the bathroom!


----------



## Eye In The Sky

:rofl:


----------



## MikeL

C.G.R said:
			
		

> How can you go without a cell phone on BMQ?! How else would you be able to upload hero pics to facebook?? It is imperative that the world sees you aiming your empty C7 at a wall in the bathroom!



http://www.brokenandunreadable.com/broken%20and%20unreadable%2021%20color.jpg


----------



## blade227

C.G.R said:
			
		

> How can you go without a cell phone on BMQ?! How else would you be able to upload hero pics to facebook?? It is imperative that the world sees you aiming your empty C7 at a wall in the bathroom!



Without a shirt on and sporting dog tags of course !


----------



## upandatom

I did mine in Borden, 06, we had the rules that, "after 1800 hrs, after the 4th week etc. " not during the 4 week indoc though, we were allowed to use the payphones etc, or if you were on door duty and knew how to use the base phone you could use it. I have been succesful in my career thus far, and the ability to use my cell phone after week four has not hindered that one bit. I know many SNCOs that have told me I would deploy with you again. 

Even on my BMQ I had a bit of a family emergency in the first four weeks, Staff came to me, said come to civi lockup, get your cellphone and call home. It was that simple. 

We are going through a changing of the guard. Technology is there, its small, its easily affordable, and the batteries last a long time. The old guard, 15+years in, may not of had cell phones affordable etc. So yes, you had to make do without them. Its pretty easy to say "I didn't need that" when the said item did not exist. I think its not so much a matter of being under a comms lockout from Family anymore. Its more of making people work, showing them realities, putting them through the strain of it all (BFT…..laugh go ahead…field, drill, etc). One of the realities is,  is that in 98% of this world the CF has comms available. Only places its scarce is the poles. We always have a way of contacting back, whether you are on the ships using BGANs, or storms, or calling in port, in the middle of Afghanistan with a jail broken Iphone. 

And yes to the whole hero shot thing, but I remember people even on my BMQ go get inked with the course number, and one even VRd during the field!! There are always those special people folks, always. 

However, the other statements about not hearing from months on end?? my father was in Haiti early 90s, we still heard from him once a week. Even in my recent deployments in Africa, Afghanistan etc. I was always able to make a quick call say I am OK. (it helps being a sig too) We have become a technology driven military. If you weren't able to call at least once a week, especially in the sandbox throughout the past 6-8 years (unless one of our brothers had fallen). It was your CoCs decision (or someone was being greedy and keeping it hush hush), to make the Iridium available, They paid many a dollar for them. I have seen with my own eyes some of the monthly bills for the iridium phones, and the SATCOMM links that carried the welfare and voice links back to Canada. They are insanely expensive. So they were being used (and heavily). Even when my girlfriend would spend the night, her dad would call her cell phone, while he was in the box, on a regular basis. I understand that yes sometimes a new camp/FOB within the first few weeks will not have instant access, however there was always the Iridium's. Even then, as a sigs guy, I know comms comes 2nd, behind security, it is one of the top priorities when building a FOB. 

For the SOF guys, I definitely can see this being totally different. Leaving at the drop of a hat etc. not being able to talk for weeks on end, maybe months, but for the rest of us, not so much, but the fact you may not be able to call/contact due to mission requirements is a given in that. You work for them, you have to expect that. 


But, what I completely disagree with is this;

POET training, a fair amount  of geeky kids, play games such as WoW etc. Well, these kids would play all night every night, fail POs, keep their roommates up etc. However, when it came down to it, because they paid for the internet, they were allowed too, no way the staff could say no to them having internet (violation of human rights because they were paying for said service). Well then the staff tried no electronics. that's great, however, when on a 9 month course, of course your going to bring your car. So the electronics were stored in the cars. It was a mess. At somepoint, there has to be the ability to say "your wasting military money on training you, we are taking away the internet."

Its the trades training that instill the discipline nowadays, not so much the BMQ.


----------



## AceOfSpades

Just wondering if anyone has done the course since the change could answer this? Is it worth bringing a laptop to BMQ? I was thinking of getting one to talk to family and friends through Skype if I get the time later on in the course and for during training after BMQ at Borden.


----------



## polishman23

you will not have time for your laptop, but most front facing phones can have skype installed as an app. I think its great to finally be allowed your phone, It was a stupid rule to begin with and honestly teaches people nothing. If you deploy, you can call your family whenever you want, either bring your phone or use the internet there. People have busy lives and need to communicate with others, pay bills, and for starters basic is a huge shock on alot of people who have no military back ground and talking to someone else other than your platoon mates is a good change of scenery. Good job on the CO who approved this.


----------



## George Wallace

polishman23 said:
			
		

> you will not have time for your laptop, but most front facing phones can have skype installed as an app. I think its great to finally be allowed your phone, It was a stupid rule to begin with and honestly teaches people nothing. If you deploy, you can call your family whenever you want, either bring your phone or use the internet there. People have busy lives and need to communicate with others, pay bills, and for starters basic is a huge shock on alot of people who have no military back ground and talking to someone else other than your platoon mates is a good change of scenery. Good job on the CO who approved this.



Rubbish coming from someone with little or no experience.  Have you ever deployed?  I can tell you now that you can not call home anytime you want when deployed.  

People have always had busy lives and had to pay bills.  However did they do it without Cellphones?  Inquiring minds would like to know.  Magic?

Funny how Basic has suddenly become a huge shock on a lot of people who have no military background.  I guess all our forefathers were military folk, right out of the womb.  We must have all been born of Amazon warrior mothers.

Shake your head.  You really have a lot to learn about the military and something called "discipline".


----------



## Jarnhamar

polishman23 said:
			
		

> If you deploy, you can call your family whenever you want


No, you can't.  That's a blatantly stupid thing to say actually.



> People have busy lives and need to communicate with others, pay bills


Then join a civilian job that won't possibly put you in a position to be away from your things. 



> and talking to someone else other than your platoon mates is a good change of scenery.



You mean in the military you MIGHT be stuck with only the people in your platoon and even though you may hate the guy next to you you're going to be stuck working with him to accomplish a mission ergo the military forcing you to be stuck with ONLY your platoon mates to interact with is actually preparing you for that?  I agree.


----------



## polishman23

wow, typical military responses.. you have an opinion and you get blasted for it, cause the bullies have it so far up their asses. seriously, is having a cellphone hinder your performance that much, its all about moral boosting, they do it all the time. Before people did not know what cell phones were therefore had no reason to complain about not having one. Humans do everything they can to make their lives easier, cell phones are one of them. Just like wearing a hat in the winter time. If  the military is all tough mentally and physically, why do we even bother upgrading weapons, use a rock and stick  and go after your enemy. I know people who have deployed and call their families whenever they pretty much feel like it. Military being so tough and all, I had a sgt in basic ask permission to touch me to fix my barret, That i find is ridiculous. but cell phones, come on give me a break.. let them listen to music while they clean their rooms or whatever.. as long as their task is complete its all that matters. Feel free to take away more of my Milnet points, as my life will not be the same.  

P.S the new force test is also an example of the new military, can't pass the old one, make an easier one. So do not bash me cause you simply do not agree.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Typical military responses because this is a military forum? Crazy.

I'm not bashing you. It sounds like you have a big ol chip on your shoulder with all you "typical army this" and "you're all bullies" that. 

You are giving potential recruits false information by telling them they will always have access to a phone to call home. They won't.

"I know people who have deployed".
 First off not all deployments will find soldiers surrounded by PSP staff, welfare phones, tim hortons and SAT phones laying around fully charged.  
Second maybe you should deploy overseas before you talk about what it's like for yourself? Just a suggestion.

"Military being so tough and all" 
yes we've all heard _hard as fuck_ guys before, maybe you should try the foreign legion or something  



> P.S the new force test is also an example of the new military, can't pass the old one, make an easier one. So do not bash me cause you simply do not agree.


So the "new military" making more lenient physical standards for recruits is weak and LOL worthy but the military making basic training less stressful and less isolated is a good thing? Right.


----------



## polishman23

the problem in the forces is the new generation bumping heads with the old. I see the military as bullies yes, People who were bullies join the forces to keep power, and the ones who were bullied join so they can have power.. and eventually all become dicks. I've been in long enough to see this. You work under 10 ppl who all have conflicting ideas and you are suppose to know what to do, every person has their own way of writing memos, and cause of it you have to rewrite it 50 times, when i was a private I was not allowed to ask my Mcpl a question before I spoke to a Cpl first.. now how stupid is that. I still see no problem with cellphones in basic. They play a big game and once you leave its no where near what basic life was. By typical military response, i mean ignorance. I have no chip on my shoulder, I just see people being bullied in the army by morons. One Mcpl yelling at a cpl cause he failed his express, when the Mcpl is a fat slob who huffs and puffs while breathing. Sgts taking turns not showing up to work cause no one will tell on them. So when military members have all these opinions of how things should and shouldn't be, I take that with a tiny grain of salt cut in half. So the more perks people get the merrier. If cellphones are allowed that is awesome.


----------



## Kat Stevens

polishman23 said:
			
		

> the problem in the forces is the new generation bumping heads with the old. I see the military as bullies yes, People who were bullies join the forces to keep power, and the ones who were bullied join so they can have power.. and eventually all become dicks. I've been in long enough to see this. You work under 10 ppl who all have conflicting ideas and you are suppose to know what to do, every person has their own way of writing memos, and cause of it you have to rewrite it 50 times, when i was a private I was not allowed to ask my Mcpl a question before I spoke to a Cpl first.. now how stupid is that. I still see no problem with cellphones in basic. They play a big game and once you leave its no where near what basic life was. By typical military response, i mean ignorance. I have no chip on my shoulder, I just see people being bullied in the army by morons. One Mcpl yelling at a cpl cause he failed his express, when the Mcpl is a fat slob who huffs and puffs while breathing. Sgts taking turns not showing up to work cause no one will tell on them. So when military members have all these opinions of how things should and shouldn't be, I take that with a tiny grain of salt cut in half. So the more perks people get the merrier. If cellphones are allowed that is awesome.




Can I just ask, why do you stay?  If it's just high school revisited for you, why do you stick around?  This is out of pure curiosity, I'm not looking for, nor will I engage in, a poo flinging contest.


----------



## George Wallace

polishman23

You may not think you have an attitude problem, but that is not being what is reflected here.  You come across as a very immature, inexperienced person having a very large chip on his shoulder.  Your claims really look more like trolling than advice from someone with experience.  I have a feeling you managed to barely squeak through BMQ and have still not learned much about the military.  If as you say, bullies join the Forces, then what are you doing here?  Are you a bully who wants his way?  You do realize that most bullies are in fact cowards.  Now that I have listened to you whine in more than one post, I think I'll go get some cheese and maybe a beer.  Beer puts hair on your chest.  You may need some.


----------



## polishman23

actually George, the military is just paying for my school, We are different generations, so I do not expect you to have the same point of you as myself. I know what I have seen. People disrespecting other people, all the time behind their backs. It is what it is. I passed basic with no problems, its all a game do as you're told and its done. Yes bullies are cowards and I see a lot of it in the forces. With the bashing of others and stealing people's credit cause they are higher in rank. We will never agree, we are 30 years apart in age, I do not expect you to.


----------



## Jarnhamar

PM23,
EDIT: According to you you're  just using the uniform to pay for school so nevermind. Cheers


----------



## polishman23

to answer some, Im in the forces cause I owe it to canada, my mom got sick and had to go in disability, I feel I owe it to alot of people. So we are taught to listen to our co's officers, leaders but if they create a rule other military members do not like we have to bash it. look, I have my views.. regarding the private not talking to a Mcpl, was because there was a phone call and we had to go through the ranks just to tell them. You will have your bad ones and I have seen my share of good ones as well. Obviously there is no place for me on this forum anyway, so I will be closing my account. There is alot of I do not give a crap that goes on cause no one is accountable for funds. I seen regiments blow through the rest of their ammo cause they did not want to fil lout paper work if some were brought back, that to me is a waste of money. Anyways See ya later.

I seen someone get yelled at because they screwed up, but the person yelling at them wrote, something on someones car and they drove around town with it on. Talk about a hypocrite.  things like this, I have a hard time dealing with. I may not be meant for the army, but I have personal reasons to be in it.


----------



## PuckChaser

Don't let the door hit you on the way out, I'm sure you've heard that from your superiors at work before too.


----------



## George Wallace

polishman23 said:
			
		

> ............... So we are taught to listen to our co's officers, leaders but if they create a rule other military members do not like we have to bash it. look, I have my views..




I really think that you need to ask for a Release.  You have an attitude that is not conducive to being a contributing member of the Canadian Armed Forces.  Sorry if the truth hurts or insults you, but you are displaying qualities that will not stand you well in the CAF, and you might as well leave now.  Perhaps, this is also a contributing factor in how you have been treated. 

The grass is not greener on the other side.  The CAF is a microcosm of the Canadian population.  You will find the same people in the CAF as you will in any job, but not the discipline, dedication and camaraderie.  Good luck as a civilian.

As you say you are leaving this site; well, Happy Trails.


----------



## polishman23

ya, discipline my ass... hipocrites.


----------



## PuckChaser

polishman23 said:
			
		

> ya, discipline my ***... hipocrites.



 :dontfeedmods: op:


----------



## George Wallace

polishman23 said:
			
		

> ya, discipline my ass... hipocrites.



Ya.  Discipline!  Something you are not showing at the moment. 

Do you really want to continue trolling.  You said you were going to leave.  You apparently are not a person of your word, amongst other things.  


Drop it now while you are still ahead.  Keep your word and go.


----------



## OldSolduer

polishman23 said:
			
		

> actually George, the military is just paying for my school, We are different generations, so I do not expect you to have the same point of you as myself. I know what I have seen. People disrespecting other people, all the time behind their backs. It is what it is. I passed basic with no problems, its all a game do as you're told and its done. Yes bullies are cowards and I see a lot of it in the forces. With the bashing of others and stealing people's credit cause they are higher in rank. We will never agree, we are 30 years apart in age, I do not expect you to.



Young man, it's not better and sometimes a lot worse on civvy street...trust me on this.


----------



## RectorCR

polishman23 said:
			
		

> the problem in the forces is the new generation bumping heads with the old. I see the military as bullies yes, People who were bullies join the forces to keep power, and the ones who were bullied join so they can have power.. and eventually all become dicks. I've been in long enough to see this. You work under 10 ppl who all have conflicting ideas and you are suppose to know what to do, every person has their own way of writing memos, and cause of it you have to rewrite it 50 times, when i was a private I was not allowed to ask my Mcpl a question before I spoke to a Cpl first.. now how stupid is that. I still see no problem with cellphones in basic. They play a big game and once you leave its no where near what basic life was. By typical military response, i mean ignorance. I have no chip on my shoulder, I just see people being bullied in the army by morons. One Mcpl yelling at a cpl cause he failed his express, when the Mcpl is a fat slob who huffs and puffs while breathing. Sgts taking turns not showing up to work cause no one will tell on them. So when military members have all these opinions of how things should and shouldn't be, I take that with a tiny grain of salt cut in half. So the more perks people get the merrier. If cellphones are allowed that is awesome.



Even if your grievances are accurate it's hardly a startling accusation...the same is true where ever you work. 
I worked in finance for a few years and before that in academia and can tell you that people are assholes and bullies looking for power...that's just life.
I used to write up documents all the time and have to re-write it over and over again because it didn't jive with how each person above me writes.  
When you spend years and years working on research and finally pull enough stuff together to publish a paper, who's name goes on top...your supervisors!
Life's unfair, get over it.

Now I've yet to make it basic so feel free to totally disregard my opinion about this but I've always felt like military training should be about making you uncomfortable. Personally one of the biggest reasons I'm joining is I want my life to be uncomfortable..to feel pain...because that's how we grow and become stronger. And I want people standing next to me in combat who won't quit when things get uncomfortable and painful. 
So, personally, I feel like screw the electronics and any other "treats" and let's see who can stand the heat...otherwise get out of the kitchen.


----------



## Jarnhamar

RectorCR said:
			
		

> Now I've yet to make it basic so feel free to totally disregard my opinion about this but I've always felt like military training should be about making you uncomfortable.



You're right on the money dude. The idea is to expose (and thus inoculate) recruits to hardships they likely haven't been exposed to but will likely BE exposed to in the future.

Lack of sleep. Stress. Less varity of food. Physical exertion.  Getting yelled at. Working with a closed group of people. Being out of touch with your family. Being out of touch with the outside world. Living in a very structured environment. Shit like that.

People have seen A&Es intervention right? Someone stumbling around drunk at 10am telling the camera they don't have a drinking problem, right before they steal money from their kids piggy bank for a case of beer.
Obviously not as dramatic as that but peoples dependence on things (texting, FB, calling home) can really fuck with their head when it's removed.


We keep revisiting the same arument in this thread so here is a challange for all you guys and girls who are planning on going away to basic training.

Shut your cell phone off and don't access the internet for a week.  No excuses, no cheating, no exceptions. 

Challange yourself to shut your cell and net off Sunday at 3pm and see if you can make it to Saturday morning.  See if you can live for a week without "being connected" (and that's even without the stress of being on basic training).


----------



## The Bread Guy

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> ....  here is a challange for all you guys and girls who are planning on going away to basic training.
> 
> Shut your cell phone off and don't access the internet for a week.  No excuses, no cheating, no exceptions.
> 
> Challange yourself to shut your cell and net off Sunday at 3pm and see if you can make it to Saturday morning.  See if you can live for a week without "being connected" (and that's even without the stress of being on basic training).


Heck, you can even start by trying ONE DAY without being connected - small steps ....


----------



## Teager

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Heck, you can even start by trying ONE DAY without being connected - small steps ....



I think you may be on to the newest reality TV show there  ;D


----------



## JorgSlice

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> You're right on the money dude. The idea is to expose (and thus inoculate) recruits to hardships they likely haven't been exposed to but will likely BE exposed to in the future.
> 
> Lack of sleep. Stress. Less varity of food. Physical exertion.  Getting yelled at. Working with a closed group of people. Being out of touch with your family. Being out of touch with the outside world. Living in a very structured environment. crap like that.
> 
> People have seen A&Es intervention right? Someone stumbling around drunk at 10am telling the camera they don't have a drinking problem, right before they steal money from their kids piggy bank for a case of beer.
> Obviously not as dramatic as that but peoples dependence on things (texting, FB, calling home) can really frig with their head when it's removed.
> 
> 
> We keep revisiting the same arument in this thread so here is a challange for all you guys and girls who are planning on going away to basic training.
> 
> Shut your cell phone off and don't access the internet for a week.  No excuses, no cheating, no exceptions.
> 
> Challange yourself to shut your cell and net off Sunday at 3pm and see if you can make it to Saturday morning.  See if you can live for a week without "being connected" (and that's even without the stress of being on basic training).



Sounds like a standard work week for me, minus stealing from piggy banks though.


----------



## Scott

This is the thread that never ends, it goes on an on my friends...


----------



## Cbbmtt

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-57457818-1/something-new-to-fear-cell-phone-separation-anxiety/

I'm so sick of being out with friends/family who check their phones once every 5 minutes. As soon as I know I'm going to be out with people, I turn the phone vibrate and only answer if it's the person taking care of my son but that's it. I think for me that is going to be the hardest part of Basic (If and when I make it), the unknown factor of how my son is doing.. sigh.


----------



## vancouverite

Cbbmtt said:
			
		

> http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-57457818-1/something-new-to-fear-cell-phone-separation-anxiety/
> 
> I'm so sick of being out with friends/family who check their phones once every 5 minutes. As soon as I know I'm going to be out with people, I turn the phone vibrate and only answer if it's the person taking care of my son but that's it. I think for me that is going to be the hardest part of Basic (If and when I make it), the unknown factor of how my son is doing.. sigh.



So your waiting as eh. It shouldn't take long. I have my second medical coming up soon, I get another crim check, & another interview. I was previously a res force but major screw ups in paperwork and I was sent to Borden, and then released because of the headaches. Now, getting back in.


----------



## kreep

I am all for electronics during basic, so long as it's in moderation, but I like to look at it this way.

If someone is going off and disregarding their duties to go text or use facebook, then they'll have the wrath of their whole platoon on their head when everyone has to pick up their slack, and I can guarantee from that point on that they won't do that again, unless they're stupid. When I think about it, it seems like a bit of a test of the mind, you have the ability to go on facebook and text, but you have to finish everything else before you are able to. It seems like a good idea to me, helps with prioritizing I think, until you get the jerks with no self control.  :facepalm:


----------



## Kat Stevens

kreep said:
			
		

> I am all for electronics during basic, so long as it's in moderation, but I like to look at it this way.
> 
> If someone is going off and disregarding their duties to go text or use facebook, then they'll have the wrath of their whole platoon on their head when everyone has to pick up their slack, and I can guarantee from that point on that they won't do that again, unless they're stupid. When I think about it, it seems like a bit of a test of the mind, you have the ability to go on facebook and text, but you have to finish everything else before you are able to. It seems like a good idea to me, helps with prioritizing I think, until you get the jerks with no self control.  :facepalm:



Sounds sort of Pavlovian to me...


----------



## thavtoohey

In your mind what is a gps blocker and what can it do to help you? Only when you are in the situation that the gps blocker is need you will understand how important and useful such kind of device is. Gaining more knowledge of the device? Just start at and then you will have access to the best GPS jammer.


----------



## Jarnhamar

thavtoohey said:
			
		

> In your mind what is a gps blocker and what can it do to help you?


Take all the batteries.  People won't be able to use their GPS's and I can use the batteries for my XBox and other toys.


----------



## PMedMoe

thavtoohey said:
			
		

> In your mind what is a gps blocker and what can it do to help you? Only when you are in the situation that the gps blocker is need you will understand how important and useful such kind of device is. Gaining more knowledge of the device? Just start at and then you will have access to the best GPS jammer.





			
				ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Take all the batteries.  People won't be able to use their GPS's and I can use the batteries for my XBox and other toys.



I'm guessing that spammer had a link in their signature block.  If so, I'm surprised it wasn't changed to link to the Milnet.ca Guidelines.


----------



## Brandonfw

I personally cannot wait to get to BMQ. They can have my cell phone, all week long, 6 days/nights. I just want it for 1 day a week. My woman would be upset about not being able to talk to me, but oh well. She already complains about me going, but at the same time can't wait, so we can start our lives. It will be just awesome to not have her up my *** 24/7   lol

-Brandon


----------



## Scott

Brandonfw said:
			
		

> It will be just awesome to not have her up my *** 24/7   lol
> 
> -Brandon



A moment of pure genius pops up from the mundane. Everyone should pay heed to his pearl.


----------



## skhan0091

MCG said:
			
		

> If a person cannot go four weeks without smartphone, tablet and laptop - how does that person function in operational environments where they may need to be seperated from those things for longer periods?



Don't forget guys. This is BASIC Military Qualification Course. The point is to get them ready with the "military ways" not really to get them combat ready. 

I doubt they will even have time to use their cellphones with the amount of work given in a day.


----------



## SMG III

Um, lots of fighting.. I got confused.
So since I turned 18 this year I applied and all and am now just waiting for the call..

So assuming I get into BMQ next year, *what are the rules for internet usage/laptops?*

I'm really not a technological person, but seeing as I'm in a long-distance relationship, it's hard enough to see me s/o as it is.
Would we be able to Skype once a week even, or would there be time during (even just to e-mail, not necessarily Skype).

I read through and it mostly was about cell phones, and a few stupid looking people fighting for no reason, so I'm just looking for a more straightforward clarification.
Call me a sap, but I'm in love  ;D

And of course I do realise that I will not be able to make contact often, especially overseas, but for now I'm just curious for the frequency during BMQ, so I can put my s/o's mind to rest. 

Thanks for the help!


----------



## ComDvr13

polishman23 said:
			
		

> P.S the new force test is also an example of the new military, can't pass the old one, make an easier one. So do not bash me cause you simply do not agree.



Just something I remember reading about the Marine Corps, and maybe just the US ARMY in general was that they changed their entry requirements quite often IIRC. Based on current hiring obligations, i they could be more picky certain years the physical evaluation targets when up, in years that they really needed more people to join/enlist then the physical standards went down.

Canada is awesome, but I dont think the old one was all that much harder than the new one.. I dont even know why I am writing you as you're probably not even on here anymore..

Anyway...Cant wait for my call to book medical/interview, etc...! Hurry up and wait


----------



## lazytitans

Good afternoon;

While training in Basic, SQ and Basic Occupational Qualification Training, are there times allotted on contacting home? With today's day and age with technology are smartphones prohibited in any of the 3 training stages? Skype, Hangouts or some other form of social media is how I am expecting to remain in contact with my son and family/friends during training. 

Any input is greatly appreciated, I will also ask the recruiter during the interview, but I believe it is always nice to ask current members who have gone through the process/going through it. 

Thank You


----------



## mariomike

lazytitans said:
			
		

> With today's day and age with technology are smartphones prohibited in any of the 3 training stages? Skype, Hangouts or some other form of social media is how I am expecting to remain in contact with my son and family/friends during training.



This may help.

Official Policy Change RE: Electronics during BMQ/BMOQ  
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/103685.500


----------



## lazytitans

Thanks for the link. Looking over the first page indicates electronic devices are allowed eh. I wonder how much of a distraction, if any, this has caused. With being a manager I have had to tell staff to get off their damn phones and focus more on work, I do believe it is a distraction to ones performance at work.

I assume one can use it as a form of communication (as I intend to do) after the days training, cleaning is complete right.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

lazytitans said:
			
		

> Thanks for the link. Looking over the first page indicates electronic devices are allowed eh. I wonder how much of a distraction, if any, this has caused. With being a manager I have had to tell staff to get off their damn phones and focus more on work, I do believe it is a distraction to ones performance at work.
> 
> I assume one can use it as a form of communication (as I intend to do) after the days training, cleaning is complete right.



http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/103685/post-1202055.html#msg1202055


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## lazytitans

That's perfect and exactly what I was looking for thanks


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## RADOPSIGOPACCISOP

That's the nice thing about working in the signals world, even though we're nerdier and techier than the average bear, a lot of the time cellphones are banned for security related reasons.

In fact, that might be an idea, just put in equipment into the recruit school that requires a cellphone ban or standoff zone. No more room for argument.



Honestly, if you are the kind of person that needs to be checking facebook every 5 seconds, I don't really want you to work for me. It might it be acceptable for someone working in Esso, but using personal cellphones or laptops while at work doesn't cut it in ANY big person professional job. Most will fire someone that keeps pulling out a cellphone when they are not on break.

Yes people do need to be in contact with families from time to time (lets be honest here, no matter where you go, welfare phones and internet will be available periodically) and the rest of the world is setup around paying bills online or via the phone. I know some of the old fossils here that were in during the gold standard era still probably head down their local bank branch and pay their Brill Crème account or Speakeasy tab or whatever, but they're the reason "If you are on a rotary phone stay on the line" is still a thing when calling a 1-800 number.

The schools ought to provide welfare internet terminals in the barracks and a couple of landlines for students to use AFTERHOURS. Let the students have their cellphones if they are off for the weekend (#bitter because on GMT there was no such thing as weekends).

It's good training for students to have the sensation of being cut off from the rest of the world, at least for a while. They need to get used to that, at least until us siggies can get the damned satcomms working (what do you mean they changed the firmware!??!).


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## Brandonfw

Scott said:
			
		

> A moment of pure genius pops up from the mundane. Everyone should pay heed to his pearl.



Not sure how to take that  :-\ haha
(sorry, JUST noticed the reply to that)


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## Scott

Brandonfw said:
			
		

> Not sure how to take that  :-\ haha
> (sorry, JUST noticed the reply to that)



It means that out of all the handwringing and gnashing of teeth from people who have never even done fucking BMQ comes a pearl of wisdom - you were seeing the bright side: not having your 9er up your arse every five minutes. Don't worry, I was not mocking you.

If you cannot survive a little bit of time without your iThingie then you're in a heap of trouble. Serious.


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## Brandonfw

Ooooh, okay  ;D Not having any electronics isn't a big deal to me. I use to go to a high school that was so far out in the boonies, that we did not even have a cell phone signal  :crybaby: But I was fine with it, some people was not. But all in all, if a person does not think that they can last without any electronics, they may as well not even apply, and go do something else. They think they will be texting on their phones while overseas? HAH, I think not. If I was over seas and seen someone using their cell, I would personally smash it, as I would rather have a person paying attention and have my back, than having some punk texting, and get me killed.....


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## Kat Stevens

Good way to get your teeth kicked in, Master Chief.


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## wilf75

in my honest opinion when your working no cell pones i see to much of that when your working your working focus on the job


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## Brandonfw

wilf75 said:
			
		

> in my honest opinion when your working no cell pones i see to much of that when your working your working focus on the job



Umm..... What?  :-\ This is that point in time when comma's come in handy....  :facepalm:


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## SJBeaton

Brandonfw said:
			
		

> Umm..... What?  :-\ This is that point in time when comma's come in handy....  :facepalm:



...and capital letters, semi colons, periods, spelling and basic attention to grammar. 

P.S. Brandonfw, you might want to make sure your grammar is correct when bringing attention to another's grammatical faults (comma's)


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## Jarnhamar

One time....overseas.....our platoon commander had a duty cell phone and liked to brag how important he was....so we went all over KAF and put up pictures of a very expensive bicycle on sale for very cheap and put his duty cell number....

 :warstory:


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## Tank Troll

Last time I was overseas we all had duty phones...........................and did that any way >


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## Brandonfw

SJBeaton said:
			
		

> ...and capital letters, semi colons, periods, spelling and basic attention to grammar.
> 
> P.S. Brandonfw, you might want to make sure your grammar is correct when bringing attention to another's grammatical faults (comma's)



Simple mistake, and purely readable...


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## joelyoung1991

You'll be told to use your phone for 30 mins a night. Half the people use it way more. Like of your in the laundry room doing laundry for people people sit there and use their phones the whole time. There's a fine line between talking to your mommy or your girlfriend and participating in cleaning and maintaining boots. If you don't help out people will learn to treat you like garbage pretty quick. But if you get all your shit done for the night use your phone just don't be a dummy and get caught cause everyone will suffer. You'll find when your done all your endless sewing of your name and start getting into the swing of things you will have more time to use your phone. We had one guy who didn't do shit and talked to he gf and played PC games the whole time. In return we didn't help him back and he always failed inspections badly. He was recoursed and then vr'd. The instructors always said " we know you people don't follow the cellphone rules, but if you get caught or start falling behind you will pay."


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## Jarnhamar

joelyoung1991 said:
			
		

> We had one guy who didn't do shit and talked to he gf and played PC games the whole time. In return we didn't help him back and he always failed inspections badly. He was recoursed and then vr'd.



Well done.


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## Jarnhamar

Just a friendly reminder to you boys and (especially) girls going away to BMQ.

If you're bringing your cell phone or laptop I highly suggest you

1- put both a lock/password on your phone and laptop and
2- remove any explicit pictures/videos of you from your devices.

If you have that on your stuff all it takes is some jerk to be snooping on your laptop or phone, see the pictures and send it to themselves/download it and spread it around the CF.  If you catch them you might get them in a bit of shit, or charged, but you'll have that material hanging over your head (and passed around) your whole career.

Having a lock on your phone doesn't stop you from passing out with the phone still on (open) by accident and someone sneaking it to snoop.


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## RedcapCrusader

Or leave that shit at home. They teach all this stuff about loyalty and respect and all this but there are still dickheads that will do this stuff. Better to just be proactive.


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## marinemech

Data and Device Security should not be a luxury today, my phone is password protected and my laptop is Password and Biometric Protected, same for my Hard drive. If they steal it, its totally worthless to them


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## Racine

marinemech said:
			
		

> Data and Device Security should not be a luxury today, my phone is password protected and my laptop is Password and Biometric Protected, same for my Hard drive. If they steal it, its totally worthless to them



Twenty points for drive-level protection!  ;D

Of course, doesn't protect you against much if somebody has physical access to a live session... 

Still, good idea.


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## marinemech

As soon as i leave a computer and i am still using it, I lock the Terminal, Only 2 people can unlock it then, Me and the Service Admin.


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## George Wallace

marinemech said:
			
		

> ............ If they steal it, its totally worthless to them



Unless of course they have "Recovery Programs" and the technical knowledge to retrieve that info.     >


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## Jarnhamar

Or someone does something high tech like watch you put your password in.


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## Brandonfw

Or boot it up with linux perhaps?   >


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## Bluebulldog

You can also alter your settings on your phone and laptop to lock down automatically if not used for a pre-set period of time.

My phone is 2 minutes, my notebook is 20.


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## ajp

If you have anything illegal on your device, and get coughs, you will suffer the consequences.  Leave your junk at home.  Get through your course without the junk.   I know of a guy that lent his buddy his laptop.  He went to prison for what they found on it.  Literally.  Why did he even bring it..who knows.  Lots of abuse once he got caught.  Don't bring your porn.   Don't share your devices.  Don't ask for it.


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## upandatom

Lets call a Spade a Spade here, 

The Canadian Cellular coverage is a damn joke. I have deployed to Several Continents, and several Third World Countries. In turn I have learned several things;

1. Canadians wireless coverage is a Joke, you can not compare Canadian coverage to anywhere else in the world. Dont say "Suffield has horrible coverage, Libya must too," Chances are some farmer in Libya has better coverage then NDHQ recieves. 
2. We pay way too effin much for the Sh!t service, as well as the even worst customer service. 
3. Countries such as Afghanistan, Sierra Leone, Sudan, Congo, etc all have better coverage, and better QoS then Canadians do. I am in the middle one of Canadas largest cities, and I can barely get 3 bars of 3G coverage (i should be full LTE), on Canadas most popular provider. In Afghanistan on my BB, with Roshan (forget how it is spelt) I had a consistently full 3G coverage. In African countries, it was the same way, using a local SIM Card, I had tonnes of service, even in the boot F@$# boonies.
4. Every single time I deployed was for comms, comms would go down, we would either resort to satcomm (Iridium or Storm/BT2), or pull out the local cellular provider (which was by far a SH@#$ tonne cheaper). By no means did we discuss anything of a strategic or tactical nature, besides saying "we know, we are working on it" Yes, we wouldnt be able to provide secure, but with Iridium having a bird out, we could only provide secure 20hrs a day. (that is a "googleable" fact")
5. There are VERY few spots in the world we would deploy that does not have some sort of communications, if you are deployed to somewhere without it, Chances are JSR is right there, already set up or getting ready to be set up. OR something has been arranged and you are piggy backing off of someone else. 

Just because you didnt have a fancy iTOY when you went through 20 years ago doesnt mean the guys coming through now shouldnt. If they want to have their cellphones, let em, I have been in the Mega with mine for CF purposes, there is horrible service and it drains the battery like none other. 

Now saying that-

I do agree that it should definetly not cause a disturbance, or get in the way of training, or if required any correctional training, or team building experiences. 

By the time a member succesfully passes basic, SQ etc and maybe even all glory PLQ at some point, they wont want to talk to the nagging wife as much. 

Just because they wouldnt let you light a fire and produce smoke signals to talk to your loved ones while you were on course, doesnt mean the guys later need or deserve the same treatment, the mentality of "I had it this way, youll have it that way too" is toxic. A Military, like its country needs to grow, develop and change for the future.


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## PMedMoe

Wow, rant much?



			
				upandatom said:
			
		

> By the time a member succesfully passes basic, SQ etc and maybe even all glory PLQ at some point, they wont want to talk to the nagging wife as much.



Oh, and just to be fair, how about the a$$hole husband?   :


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## steiner0400

Believe me, I've made several search attempts.
My question doesnt pertain to electronics, however it does involve a leisure activity.

I own the game 'cards against humamity', now, im sure most of you are aware it is a hilariously disgusting card game where you match up rude answers to even more rude questions. Would it be worth while to bring it for the potential down time on some weekends to play with the guys/girls of my platoon?

I know it would have to stay in civi lockup whilst on course, I was just wondering if it would impose on any sort of contraband rule.

Thanks


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## stealthylizard

When you get your weekends off, one of the last things you want to do is spend even more time with the people you work and live with 24 hours/day.  Use your free weekends for "alone" time.

That's my  :2c:.


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## q_1966

Your luggage will not be placed with care in the civi lockup (our course had a spare room stuffed to the gills with winter kit in a second kit bag and personal luggage), it was always a free for all every friday  and sunday night so it might get destroyed unless u have a pelican style plastic brief case it would be something to play when your on weekend fire watch or whatever, however the first 3-4 weeks you will be too busy on the weekends sewing name tags on your stuff in your spare time.


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## Ludoc

Take the cards with you. You may not get a chance to use them on BMQ but after that you will most likely goto PAT and have a lot of time to kill while waiting for trades training. You may even get some use out of them after that. On my QL3s we were not allowed electronics for the first few months but passed quite a few nights/weekends playing board games.

You will most likely go straight from BMQ to PAT, BMQ-L and then your DP 1. Don't just pack for basic, pack for what comes after as well.


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## steiner0400

Sounds good! Ill probably store them in tgeir original boxes, inside another box filled with bubble wrap then since pelican cases cost upwards of 150$ for anything witg strength.

Thanks guys! Im expecting a newborn within 3 weeks of my finish date for basic so im going to see about being on leave if im in waiting for trade training (infantry anyways).


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## Ludoc

Two boxes and bubble wrap? That is a lot of room to take up.

A Pelican 1060 Micro Case starts at about $30 on Amazon. I think that is the one I have. I can fit Munchkin, two expansions and a deck of cards in there. Even if that is too small, take a look around there are a lot of options much cheaper than $150. And later on a small pelican case is a handy thing to have.


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## steiner0400

The box doesnt take all that much space, its about 3/4 the size of a Kleenex box including the 2 expansions ive got. Ill look into that case though. Thanks.


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## Anira_09

Hello
 The first 5 weeks that we cant go out or receive visits, can we make calls? Use internet? Communicate with family??? How often??? 
Thanks


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## George Wallace

Asked and answered hundreds of times.

Please READ what was posted in this now MERGED THREAD.


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## cleisure123

Hi everyone, 

I am very new at this, so I apologize if I get any terms wrong. 
My significant other will be going to BMOQ January 13th.  I know there is a strict rule for the indoctrination period such as new visits or cellphones. 
I was wondering if these rules about the cellphone are true? Someone told me that it depends on how your group is, and sometimes during that first month you might have access to your cellphone only at night for a very very short period of time. Do any of you know? From experience?

Second, if they cannot be used, can phone calls be made using the base phone? 
Third, can letters be sent back and forth during that first month?

This is all very new to me so I am just wondering!


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## mariomike

cleisure123 said:
			
		

> I was wondering if these rules about the cellphone are true? Someone told me that it depends on how your group is, and sometimes during that first month you might have access to your cellphone only at night for a very very short period of time. Do any of you know? From experience?



"•Phones can be used on weeknights after training has concluded but no earlier than 6:00 pm. Reasonable usage should be restricted to communications with family and friends;"
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/training-establishments/recruit-school-basic-training.page

Extra Kit on BMQ ? Cameras, Cell Phones, Laptops..  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/12730.75


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## BeyondTheNow

cleisure123 said:
			
		

> Hi everyone,
> 
> I am very new at this, so I apologize if I get any terms wrong.
> My significant other will be going to BMOQ January 13th.  I know there is a strict rule for the indoctrination period such as new visits or cellphones.
> I was wondering if these rules about the cellphone are true? Someone told me that it depends on how your group is, and sometimes during that first month you might have access to your cellphone only at night for a very very short period of time. Do any of you know? From experience?
> 
> Second, if they cannot be used, can phone calls be made using the base phone?
> Third, can letters be sent back and forth during that first month?
> 
> This is all very new to me so I am just wondering!



(I’m NCM, not Officer. But I’ve heard all the same applies for what I’m about to say.)

Cell phone usage and the level of strictness imposed by the staff varies from pl to pl. 

There will be times when phone usage/contact will be cut-off completely for at least a few days. (I.e field, punishment, etc.)

There are payphones on every floor. Phone cards can be purchased. When/if the recruit/cadet gets to use them if cell phones are confiscated varies. 

You can mail letters to your SO at any point. When they get them and whether or not they’ll have a chance to respond varies. (Mail has to get sorted and dispersed once it arrives to the school.)

Every platoon is run differently. While all platoons will more or less experience the same inconveniences at one point or another, it’s up to the staff how strict they decide to be with certain things during course.


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## mariomike

cleisure123 said:
			
		

> Second, if they cannot be used, can phone calls be made using the base phone?



BMQ / BMOQ Pay phones
https://www.google.ca/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&ei=Ru4tWsz_HeaMjwTItqyoBA&q=site%3Aarmy.ca+bmq+%22pay+phone%22&oq=site%3Aarmy.ca+bmq+%22pay+phone%22&gs_l=psy-ab.3...7842.7842.0.9089.1.1.0.0.0.0.68.68.1.1.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.N1lP-wgheHY



			
				cleisure123 said:
			
		

> Third, can letters be sent back and forth during that first month?



BMQ / BMOQ - Mail, Care Packages ect... [MERGED]
https://army.ca/forums/threads/29576.50.html
3 pages.


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## Jarnhamar

[quote author=BeyondTheNow]
There will be times when phone usage/contact will be cut-off completely for at least a few days. (I.e field, punishment, etc.)

[/quote]

Or two weeks  :tsktsk:


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## BeyondTheNow

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Or two weeks  :tsktsk:



Yep, this is true. My usage of “...at least...” covers the bare minimum there.

Side note: Tbh, I’m a little unsympathetic with the electronics issue while on course. I have a child, I have a family, I have friends, etc., so I know the feeling. I did my research and when it came time to head out I prepared everyone for the possibility that they may not hear from me for the duration. Why? Because I had no idea, other than reading about other’s accounts, what it was going to be like. I simply chose to prepare for worst-case scenario. That way, there are no false expectations or hurt feelings for anyone else or for me. It was just easier.


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## Jarnhamar

I'd take cell phones away for a month if I could, or at the very least lock them up during the week (and on weekends when recruits are confined to base).   :nod:

Another thing that works is making a small 9 foot by 9 foot "box" out of pickets and mine tape and only let students use their cellphones in that "secure" box.


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## BeyondTheNow

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I'd take cell phones away for a month if I could, or at the very least lock them up during the week (and on weekends when recruits are confined to base).   :nod:
> 
> Another thing that works is making a small 9 foot by 9 foot "box" out of pickets and mine tape and only let students use their cellphones in that "secure" box.



I think you were one of my instructors.  ;D


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## TPrudhomme96

I just enlisted and am waiting on a job offer. I'm not up to speed on military terms and was just wondering what VR'd means? I saw somebody post about how allowing recruits to have their cellphones reduced the VR rate by 66% so I was curious.


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## mariomike

"Just wondering what VR'd means?"

Voluntary Release


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## dangerboy

TPrudhomme96 said:
			
		

> Just wondering what VR'd means?



In this case VR means Voluntary Release.


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## Kaniff

Hello everyone, just wondering if we are allowed to bring our cell phones while on BMQ?...Im not looking to sit on Facebook and take selfies all day, I just need to be able to check my email periodically. While I do look forward to joining the reserves, I have a wife in university and 2 kids that I still need to financially provide for and may need to forward a work email quickly every now and then.


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## Jarnhamar

Kaniff said:
			
		

> Hello everyone, just wondering if we are allowed to bring our cell phones while on BMQ?...Im not looking to sit on Facebook and take selfies all day, I just need to be able to check my email periodically. While I do look forward to joining the reserves, I have a wife in university and 2 kids that I still need to financially provide for and may need to forward a work email quickly every now and then.




Yes you can. They'll probably be taken away for a little bit, there will be a lot of complaining and crying. You'll eventually get them back.

Question for you though, what happens if you're deployed overseas and you can't check your email for a month where you're going?


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## Kaniff

The concern is only for the next 17 months while my wife is still in school. Once she is out and has a job, my loss of income will be less of a sacrifice.


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## Jarnhamar

You'll be good to go don't worry.


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