# New Governor General Service Medal?



## watusi77

In the Nepean Weekender 13 April 2007, a Mr David W Palmer (Royal Canadian Legion, Barhaven Branch (Ottawa)) issued an open letter to the Governor General suggesting a Governor General Volunteer Service Medal (GGVSM) be issued to all present and former serving members to recognize volunteer service by members of Canada's Armed Forces since 1947. The medal wouuld have a bar naming the serving Governor General when the member became qualified. The ribbon would borrow the colours of the GG's flag, including the gold of the Lion set against the red and white of the Canadian Flag with a medallion carrying the GG's lion in rampant pose, ready to stand and serve with honour and pride.

He noted in particular dangers faced during the Cold War and in particular sailors performing dangerous naval missions without proper recognition, but that it should be made available to all.

Do you think a GGVSM should be issued to all former and serving members of the Armed Forces since 1947??


----------



## Michael OLeary

Why have you chosen to situate the "No" option as "No, too expensive"?  Could you not imagine any other argument against another medal?


----------



## dapaterson

My preferred choice would be "No, we don't need more stuff on our uniforms - we're not Americans, after all".


----------



## Command-Sense-Act 105

How about just "No"?


----------



## MikeM

No. We have the CD, Special Service Medals, etc.

We don't need another handout one.


----------



## PMedMoe

Would it be just another "dartboard" medal?  :


----------



## Blackadder1916

How about a bar to the SSM called "Service For Which Another Bar Has Not Been Given". (_sarcasm_)

In response to the individual who made the proposal in the open letter, I would remind him that The Queen, not the Governor General, is the fount of honour in Canada.  The GG is a representative.  We volunteer to serve Her Majesty, not Her Excellency.


----------



## stealthylizard

Despite receiving a medal that one does not have to really do anything to be rewarded such an "award", in my opinion, it would be too much hassle to track down every serving member since 1947, and the costs would be deplorable issuing one to the thousands upon thousands of former, and current members.  I prefer the method of medals as it is now, excluding service and theater medals.  You have to perform an act of bravery to get recognition.  It prevents our tunics from looking like a sheet of medal (pun intended) ;D.


----------



## Shec

dapaterson said:
			
		

> My preferred choice would be "No, we don't need more stuff on our uniforms - we're not Americans, after all".



Can't you just see it now:


> I got this one for joining up,
> I got this one for sleeping in a bag in winter,
> I got this one for being shack rat once,
> I got this one for fighting the Fantasians,
> I got this one for going to Dundurn
> I got this one for...


  :warstory:


----------



## stealthylizard

Ahhh, the memories of Dundurn...........


----------



## Danjanou

> I got this one for going to Dundurn



Ok I could probably rationalize one for enduring Dundurn ;D


----------



## 3rd Horseman

Ahhh yes Dundern, GBty annual party....I mean weapons training.

We already have a volunteer medal issued for volunteer service to the UN and special UN missions. We just got it a few years back for the very reason the narrative requests above. Korea got a volunteer medal also so No NO NO.


----------



## Journeyman

While this thread is based on a newspaper article, maybe the follow-on discussion should be moved down to The Mess.

a) the topic falls outside of any concept of "military affairs" or relevant "news"
b) a GG Medal would unduly increase a wearer's number of medals in the same way as discussing this outside The Mess inflates a member's posting count -- with the value of both being of the same overall value  :


----------



## Michael OLeary

Perhaps if people kept to the subject of the news item, it could remain here in the News forum.


----------



## Journeyman

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Perhaps if people kept to the subject of the news item, it could remain here in the News forum.



As you pointed out in Reply #1, the poll provides limited options, hence the more ranging "discussion."


----------



## Command-Sense-Act 105

Point, Journeyman, ready?  Mr O'Leary, ready?

En Garde... FENCE!


----------



## Blackadder1916

As much as I would like to ridicule this suggestion as being "American-like", and rest smugly on a belief that we, as soldiers (ex-soldiers) of the Queen, do not need a medal like this, I do have to recognize that our Commonwealth partner, Austrailia, appears to have a medal that is comparable to what is suggested.

Australian Defence Medal 
http://www.itsanhonour.gov.au/honours/awards/medals/australian_defence_medal.cfm


> Significance
> 
> The Australian Defence Medal recognises current and former Australian Defence Force personnel who completed an initial enlistment period, or four years service, whichever was the lesser.
> 
> History
> 
> The Australian Defence Medal was established on 20 March 2006 by Letters Patent. The gazette notice is available on the Attorney-General's website.
> 
> It recognises qualifying efficient service of current and former Australian Defence Force (ADF) Regular and Reserve personnel, including National Servicemen, who have served since the end of World War II.
> Regulations governing the award of the Medal were gazetted on 30 March 2006.
> 
> How it is awarded
> 
> The Governor-General (or his delegate) awards the Australian Defence Medal on the recommendation of the Chief of the Defence Force (or his delegate).
> 
> The eligibility criteria requires completion of an initial enlistment period or four years service, whichever is the lesser. The criteria also includes those who could not serve the four-year qualifying period or complete an initial enlistment period for one or more of the following reasons:
>  the death of a member during service;
>  the discharge of the member as medically unfit due to compensable impairment;
>  the discharge of the member due to a prevailing discriminatory Defence policy, as determined by the Chief of the Defence Force or his or her delegate.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Journeyman said:
			
		

> As you pointed out in Reply #1, the poll provides limited options, hence the more ranging "discussion."



So I suppose we just wait for the poll to be clarified.  Rather than tossing the original poster's intent into the play room.

But it's not like some members to be patient and wait for clarification when an idea can be considered ripe for ridicule and senselessness.


----------



## Kiwi99

Why are we so afraid of being like the Americans?  They are a fine fighting force whom we have ridiculed before for no reason.  So they have smarter looking dress uniforms than we do, maybe we could take a hint from them to fix the blandness of ours.


----------



## aesop081

Kiwi99 said:
			
		

> Why are we so afraid of being like the Americans?  They are a fine fighting force whom we have ridiculed before for no reason.  So they have smarter looking dress uniforms than we do, maybe we could take a hint from them to fix the blandness of ours.



By creating "gimme" medals ?


----------



## medaid

I don't know about gimme' medals. But, wouldn't it be nice to have some what of a recognition for your service, that you could wear later on? I mean, I KNOW we get certificates of service and things like that, (if we were good) and the memory of our service alone should satisfy some of us. But there are others who might think a medal for service, merely service in the CF. Yes, the CD is good enough for that. But there are some of us who could not, or was unable to serve the full 12 years. There are great troops who serve their initial engagements or in the PRes serve only 5 or 6 years, who I think, deserve a medal. 

Maybe, it shouldn't be the GGSM. Maybe it could be a medal from a soldier's respective province that they're from. A sign of thank you from the province on behalf of a thankfull people. 

I know a few years ago, there was a movement to create a SSM bar for CICs since the only medal they'll ever get normally is the CD, unless they've got them from a previous life of service. I haven't heard of anything then, I think it was kaibawsh'd.

I don't know, maybe it could be a good idea.


----------



## dapaterson

> It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom – for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.



Sums it up rather nicely.  I do not serve for baubles and bangles.

http://www.constitution.org/scot/arbroath.htm


----------



## Reccesoldier

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Ok I could probably rationalize one for enduring Dundurn ;D



This brings up the possibility of the "Lawfield Corridor Medal"


----------



## Steel Badger

Reccesoldier said:
			
		

> This brings up the possibility of the "Lawfield Corridor Medal"


And the Meaford Service Ribbon with Poison Ivy Clasp


----------



## Jc066

> And the Meaford Service Ribbon with Poison Ivy Clasp



...Don't for get about the tank rut's


----------



## Danjanou

Reccesoldier said:
			
		

> This brings up the possibility of the "Lawfield Corridor Medal"



As long as we don't go back to this old idea
http://www.ipmscanada.com/fun-medals.html 

Seriously after some reflection I'm now of two minds on this whole idea.

On the one hand the general consensus here is it seems to be a waste of time effort and money that could better be spent elsewhere and a logistics nightmare to undertake. 

The initial issue would be how many? 

How many persons have served since 1947? 

Even if we put some conditions on it such as minimum 6 months service (sorry no gong for SYEP) we'd still be in the hundreds of thousands for the initial issue. Then after minting them then how do we issue them all? 

On the other hand many persons served honourably for less than 12 years and through no fault of their own never were "entitled" to a gong for an overseas tour just because there were none available. Think of the post Korea pre FYG period, where the  options were Germany , Cyprus and/or the Mid East and lets be honest a lot of guys never saw them, or failed to qualify (Reservists on 60-90 day flyovers vs 180 days for the NATO/SSM). The others the Centennial medal, 125, Golden Jubilee etc we all know may have covered this, but not everyone got one and there are plenty of horror stories on the issue of the last two, many recounted on this forum 

My father served in the late 1940' early 1950's in the RCN. Not long enough to qualify for a CD, and never went anywhere exotic, but he did his time. No one forced  him too, and he neve made a career of it, like many did. But he served, others chose not to. Maybe this is a nice way of honouring his and many thousands of others service. 

I'd also find it nice to go into the Legion after a parade on Nov 11th with him with us both having the same decoration (OK those who know me know that's crap but you get the point  >).

Those of us who know what the pretty little ribbons stand for will never mistake this for a MMV will we. With the military's dark sense of humour soon we'll have an amusing and derogatory nickname for it right up there with the "medal for getting a medal (CPSM)" 12 years Undetected Crime Medal (CD)"  and the "Beer and Bratwurst Medal" (SSM/NATO). "The mini or training  CD" is a possibility . ;D

The design, ribbon colour I can live with BTW,  but the whole idea of a separate bar for each GG is ridiculous. If for some reason this comes to pass then drop that part at least.  

Incidentally  I would presume that should this come to pass it would rank lower in precedence to the CD, which would then become a true "long service" decoration and not the easiest "gimme" to get (for what it's worth I don't consider it a gimme I earned my CD and hung around long enough to get it, others didn't. It ain't an MSC but it's still mine). I can handle tacking it to the left of my 12 years undetected crime, but I really don't want to have all my medals remounted again, the guy who did it last time is now retired.


----------



## pidd

Whilst the awarding of trophies for hockey and football or literary this and that seem to have well found their place in the 'realm' of Rideau Hall, the decorations for service in the Canadian armed forces still remains, unless there is a change in the constitution (good luck) with the Crown, i.e., service to the Queen or King.  The GG can pin it on the soldier but she does so on behalf of the person she represents and from whom the decoration finds its authority.  Contrary to the notion and self-aggrandizing behaviour of some Vice-Regal types in the past few decades, it takes a coronation to put the crown on the head.

It is remarkable, I think, when one does compare the awarding of decorations with other-than-Commonwealth countries, the restraint from excess in our tradition that is so often not the case in the habit of Banana or 'People's' Republics.

Soldiers of the Great War received just three medals if they were 'in it' from 1914 on, and just two if from 1915-on, i.e., The 1914-1915 Star, the Victory Medal, and the British Service Medal, with no distinguishing medals for being wounded, going over the top, or filing papers at headquarters.  The government did award a 'pin' for 'Service At The Front' that carried some cachet among the vets who lived in/survived the trenches.

The 'Canadian Decoration' is meant to honour signficant years of service but perhaps something along the lines of the 'Defence Medal' in Australia is not a bad idea for anyone who put time in uniform...with the monarch on it as it properly should.


----------



## HItorMiss

I believe that the Wound strip in the Great war, there was never a medal for it.


----------



## Reccesoldier

I am completely and utterly against this.  Medals are supposed to signify something.  Even the maligned CPSM represents something (the appreciation of the population of Canada for our peacekeeping duties and the Nobel Prize we won), others have been inexpertly awarded and administered in the past but those days are long gone now.

The idea that members of the CF should get a medal for just doing their job's, with no real operational focus, tactical danger or personal hardship involved destroys the real reason any medal is awarded.

Yes, many who never made a life of this vocation served honourably for every single second they were in, of that there is no doubt, the difference lies in the continuance of that service, for better or worse.

The CD is the medal we all get for doing our jobs honourably when no one else is watching, anyone can do it for 6 months, or a couple of years but 12 years really does mean something.


----------



## Blackadder1916

> Then after minting them then how do we issue them all?


They already went through that exercise for the Canadian Volunteer Service Medal for Korea(CVSMK), Special Service Medal (SSM) with NATO bar, and the Canadian Peacekeeping Service Medal (CPSM).  (_Reminds me that I still have to apply for the CPSM_)

Of note,  when the CVSMK (especially) and the CPSM were proposed stating that individuals who had served should be recognized by Canada with a "Canadian" medal reference was made to the Canadian Volunteer Service Medal which was a "Canadian" medal for WW2 service.  Interestingly, the criteria for the CVSM was  "persons of any rank in the Naval, Military or Air Forces of Canada who voluntarily served on Active Service and have honourably completed eighteen months (540 days) total voluntary service from September 3, 1939 to March 1, 1947".  *Service outside Canada was not specifically required*; those who served 60 days outside Canada received a 'bar' to the medal.  The Newfoundland version of the medal (which came out many years later) was only for service outside Newfoundland.  But then Canadians got the 'bar' for serving in Newfoundland. 

The CVSMK was awarded only for service in the operational theatre.  There were many WW2 veterans who volunteered,  along with many others, in 1950 just as they had several years before.  Not all of them went to Korea, a notable one being Smokey Smith.  

Though we should not base the appropriateness of such an award on what other countries are (or are not ) doing, Australia instituted a similar medal last year and if the growing industry in the UK for 'commemorative' service medals is a measure there is certainly a considerable number of UK ex-servicemen who wish recognition for their time in uniform. 

The more that I consider this proposal the less I am inclined to dismiss it out of hand as a vanity exercise from people who want one more, or at least one, medal so that they can play Mr. Dress-up.  Could I change my vote to 'maybe, I'm still thinking'.


----------



## stealthylizard

Perhaps another alternative is to give it to them upon release from the military starting at a certain date.  Retroactively would be too much of a bureaucratic nightmare in my opinion.


----------



## warrickdll

A lot of the technicalities (but not this actual news item) were covered in a similar topic: 
*Should everyone get a CD?* (http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/40865.0.html)

A modified summary of the idea was to recognize service in the CF with a medal if meeting enough criteria to be "deemed to have served" and with bars at either each 5yr or 10yr increment. The actual issue of the medal would be upon release or after some specified time (maybe after 5 years).


A major point was to *Not* add a new medal, but to use (or replace) the existing CD with its existing tracking system. Those who had received the old CD could keep using it with its old bar system and post-nominals, those who receive the new one would have a different bar system and no post-nominals.


I would stay away from naming it "Governor General", or using the term "Volunteer".


----------



## George Wallace

MedTech said:
			
		

> I don't know about gimme' medals. But, wouldn't it be nice to have some what of a recognition for your service, that you could wear later on? I mean, I KNOW we get certificates of service and things like that, (if we were good) and the memory of our service alone should satisfy some of us. But there are others who might think a medal for service, merely service in the CF. Yes, the CD is good enough for that. But there are some of us who could not, or was unable to serve the full 12 years. There are great troops who serve their initial engagements or in the PRes serve only 5 or 6 years, who I think, deserve a medal.
> 
> Maybe, it shouldn't be the GGSM. Maybe it could be a medal from a soldier's respective province that they're from. A sign of thank you from the province on behalf of a thankfull people.
> 
> I know a few years ago, there was a movement to create a SSM bar for CICs since the only medal they'll ever get normally is the CD, unless they've got them from a previous life of service. I haven't heard of anything then, I think it was kaibawsh'd.
> 
> I don't know, maybe it could be a good idea.



There is so much wrong with this argument in my eyes.  It sounds like someone who's only aim in life is to "collect" trinkets.  After Service, Servicemembers are given their certificates and pins to recognize their time in the CF.  What more do they want?  A medal that they can wear once a year?  

The pin can be worn on a jacket year round.

Why not join the Legion, a Regimental Association, the Air Force Association or any other like organization and buy their blazer and pocket crest and wear it to all their functions?  That would give you something to wear and puff out your chest more often than wearing a medal once a year on Remembrance Day under a heavy overcoat.

Crying for a medal for experimenting with the CF for a couple of years, and finding it was not to your liking sounds too petty and selfish to me.  The CD is for "Dedicated Service" over a fixed period of time.  Why create a medal for those who didn't have the 'dedication to Serve'?  It sounds rather petty to me.

If you are proud of your Service, no matter how long, join an Association and participate there.  Wear the jacket and crest of your affiliation.  Don't worry about trinkets and bobbles.  By the way, there are also Service and other medals awarded by the Legion.  Join the Legion and collect some of them.


----------



## Reccesoldier

The idea of a medal that everyone gets is completely 180 degrees out of synch with the entire reason d’être of medals, honours and awards.  

They are not, and never were, intended to be given to everyone.  To do so makes them absolutely worthless, both to the wearer and the observer.  Think about how some view the SSM (NATO), now multiply that derision by 1000 and you have the status of the medal proposed.

If they come up with this and I'm still serving I will not wear it, display it or even acknowledge that I have it.


----------



## niner domestic

+1 George!

To add to your comments, if one can not afford a blazer or crest, there is always the Regimental, Branch or Mil Col tie that can be worn.  I most often wear collar and tie to functions and it's the tie that generates the most conversation, questions or identifying other members.  Nice thing about a tie is that it can be worn everyday with a suit, jacket or just a collar.


----------



## geo

Recce... 
Remember the Centenial, 125th, the Jubilee and the Diamond jubilee medal (or recent notoriety)

During WW2 there was the dastardly volunteer medal

Both WWs had Victory medals that became EBGOs

This proposed new medal is not going to everyone- you still have to stick around for a couple of years.........


----------



## Reccesoldier

geo said:
			
		

> Recce...
> Remember the Centenial, 125th, the Jubilee and the Diamond jubilee medal (or recent notoriety)
> 
> During WW2 there was the dastardly volunteer medal
> 
> Both WWs had Victory medals that became EBGOs
> 
> This proposed new medal is not going to everyone- you still have to stick around for a couple of years.........



So what is it... The CD light?  CD wannabe? The Not-So-Long Service Medal?  How about the RTU/RTM medal.

The point is that it's issue will be almost so automatic as to make the medal itself worthless.  From the Bible (CFP 200) 


> 12. Proposals to establish a new, military, national
> honour must comply with the following guidelines in
> addition to those in paragraph 9:
> 
> <snip>
> 
> b. Additional principles to be observed are:
> 
> (1) eligibility – no new honour should
> adversely affect eligibility for existing
> ones;


  There goes the whole changing the CD idea.



> (2) respect – fundamental to the concept of
> honours is that they carry prestige and
> that their raison d'être is to recognize an
> accomplishment commanding the
> respect of members of the military, the
> general public and the person honoured;


  It is argueable that this proposed medal would make that cut either.



> (3) equitability – if an honour is bestowed for
> duty under certain circumstances, similar
> kinds of duty and circumstances should
> be rewarded to prevent dissatisfaction
> over unequal and unfair treatment; and


  We have a winner as this new medal would only ask that a person serve and still be breathing.



> (4) credibility – to be credible, an honour
> must represent a worthy endeavour _*and
> must not represent routine duty, a factor
> related to respect.*_


  There we have it folks.  In my humble (or not so humble)opinion this effectively kills the idea.

Georges point about gongs, baubles and shiny bits is absolutely correct.  

In my job I run into more than my fair share of people, some serving and some not whom I call "Medal Detectors".  Some of these people have very impressive credentials, war service and the whole nine yards, but as soon as they start whining that they are "only 53 days short of the CD" and that they should get it because "the governor General has a CD and what the hell did she ever do" then all their other accomplishments seem to fade away and are overshadowed by this chest thumping and self aggrandizement..


----------



## warrickdll

Reccesoldier said:
			
		

> (1) eligibility – no new honour should
> adversely affect eligibility for existing
> ones;
> There goes the whole changing the CD idea.



The CD itself replaced similar medals of varying criteria - so the idea of changing it is probably still in.





			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> ...
> The CD is for "Dedicated Service" over a fixed period of time.  Why create a medal for those who didn't have the 'dedication to Serve'?
> ...



Actually, the CD (when first awarded) shows that a person had 1 year more "Dedication" than a person serving 11 years, and 1 year less "Dedication" than a person serving 13 years. 


The CD does not mark the difference between those who had the "dedication to Serve" and those who didn't.






			
				Reccesoldier said:
			
		

> (4) credibility – to be credible, an honour
> must represent a worthy endeavour *and
> must not represent routine duty, a factor
> related to respect.*



Granted, that is the most convincing reason against the idea that I've seen, however, the rationality of the CD has the same problem. The 12 year criteria for the CD is no more or less valid than if the criteria was 5 years or 25 years.


This proposed GGVSM is a bad idea if the CF ends up with a medal for serving in the CF _and_ a separate medal showing how long that service was.

But, this proposed GGVSM is a better idea than the CD. 

I just can't imagine some committee sitting around, and someone saying "Hey! What we really need is a medal for people who have served for 12 years, with bars at 22 years, 32 years, etc..". 

On their own, both the CD and the proposed GGVSM each are *light* on justification. Combined though - I see more than enough validity.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Iterator said:
			
		

> I just can't imagine some committee sitting around, and someone saying "Hey! What we really need is a medal for people who have served for 12 years, with bars at 22 years, 32 years, etc..".



Actually, the CD was created to replace eight different long service awards that were then in use.  The intent was to actually reduce the administration required to manage such a diverse selection of awards for the same thing.  12 years was the lower end of the eligibility requirements (for the Effieincy Decoration).



> “Prior to the CD, Canadian service personnel had been eligible for any one of eight separate long service awards, depending on which service they were enrolled in and what rank they held. There was the *RCN Long Service Medal*, the *Royal Canadian Navy Voluntary Reserve (RCNVR) Long Service Medal* and the *RCNVR Officer's Decoration* for members of the navy. The army had the *Army Long Service and Good Conduct Medal*, the *Efficiency Medal* and the *Efficiency Decoration*. Those in the air force were eligible for the *RCAF Long Service and Good Conduct Medal* or the *Air Efficiency Award*.
> 
> Brooke Claxton, the Canadian minister of Defence from 1946 until 1954, had a keen interest in honours and awards and was the central supporter of plans for a unique Canadian long service award. Clerical staff at the Department of National Defence had long complained that administering the various separate long service awards was time-consuming and complex, and plans for a separate Canadian long service award emerged from DND in 1947.
> 
> Through Order-in-Council 6335, Cabinet approved the establishment of the Canadian Forces Decoration on 15 December 1949, and a submission was forwarded to King George VI. The King approved the creation of the CD on 8 March 1950.” – The Canadian Honours System, Christopher McCreery, 2005


----------



## warrickdll

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> ...
> Actually, the CD was created to replace eight different long service awards that were then in use.  The intent was to actually reduce the administration required to manage such a diverse selection of awards for the same thing.  12 years was the lower end of the eligibility requirements (for the Effieincy Decoration).
> ...



I see the intent... but the 12? Do you have a different source for the E.D.?


From: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/40865/post-349795.html#msg349795


> A summary (also from http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dhh/honours_awards/engraph/long_service_e.asp?cat=3, and http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=collections/cmdp/mainmenu/group11):
> 
> - Regular Navy Officers: No Awards.
> - Reserve Navy Officers: At 20 years.
> 
> - Regular Navy Other Ranks: At 15 years, and then every 15 years (no postnominals).
> - Reserve Navy Other Ranks: At 12 years, and then every 12 years (no postnominals).
> 
> 
> - Regular Army Officers: No Awards.
> - Reserve Army Officers: At 20 year, and then every 20 years.
> 
> - Regular Army Other Ranks: At 18 years, and then every 18 years (no postnominals).
> - Reserve Army Other Ranks: At 12 years, and then every 6 years (no postnominals).
> 
> 
> - Regular Air Force Officers: No Awards.
> - Reserve Air Force Officers and Other Ranks: At 10 years, and then every 10 years (no postnominals).
> 
> - Regular Air Force Other Ranks: At 18 years, and then every 18 years (no postnominals).
> 
> Notes:
> - At first the Air Force appears to have used the Army awards
> - IIRC Navy Good Conduct chevrons were for 3, 8, and 13 years.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Iterator said:
			
		

> I see the intent... but the 12? Do you have a different source for the E.D.



*Efficiency Decoration*
Instituted 17 October 1930
Branch of Service: Territorial Army (UK), the Indian Volunteer Forces and the Colonial Volunteer Forces.

"The 20-year qualification was reduced to 12 years in 1949, bars for each addition 6 years being added."

(Medal Yearbook 2007, Token Publishing 2007)


----------



## RangerRay

Kiwi99 said:
			
		

> Why are we so afraid of being like the Americans?  They are a fine fighting force whom we have ridiculed before for no reason.  So they have smarter looking dress uniforms than we do, maybe we could take a hint from them to fix the blandness of ours.



Are our green DEUs not almost exactly the same as the American dress uniforms, with fewer ribbons?


----------



## geo

good lord no!

Also... the US army is going back to a yankee blue


----------



## George Wallace

With all the talk of medals these days, perhaps it is time to reprise this old topic.

Trinkets.  Trinkets for those who think the CF should be like the Boy Scouts.  "I want a medal for Sewing, 'cause I had to sew my name on my socks and underwear on BMQ!"

 :

For Christ sake.  We have a system in place for HONOURS and AWARDS.  It isn't for TRIVIA and SOUVINIRS.  

Perhaps we should institute something for the growing number of whiners after all.  Let's be like the Americans.  You get a medal for a 'Significant Event'; for all else you get a Ribbon.  Three years Service, you get a Ribbon.  Twelve years Service, you get the CD (Medal).  Deploying overseas, you get a Ribbon.  You deploy to a War Zone, you get a Medal.


----------



## daftandbarmy

geo said:
			
		

> good lord no!
> 
> Also... the US army is going back to a yankee blue



Good for them. That 'Hospital Green' ugly suit they wear now needs to go. On the other hand, it makes CF Greens look good so maybe we should lobby for them to keep it?


----------



## c4th

The GGIGNDN (Governor General's I've Gone Nowhere and Done Nothing) medal has surfaced on Facebook.  http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Governor-Generals-Volunteer-Service-Medal-GGVSM/391940725883?ref=nf

Please let it be stillborn.


----------



## 1feral1

I, like others have the ADM, and I don't see anything wrong with the idea. IMHO medals ar more than operational, they are awards.

Some may be humbled and not want such, but others such as families of vets and other vets (former and serving) will.  If I was eligible for such, I would add it to my rack of 'operational' and 'been no where medals' without question.

OWDU


----------



## Journeyman

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Crying for a medal for experimenting with the CF for a couple of years, and finding it was not to your liking sounds too petty and selfish to me.


Whoa, that's pretty harsh -- Sunil Ram _does_ read these threads now and then!  



I know the post is dated, George; I likely missed it because I dismissed this thread's topic as a dumbass idea when it was intially proposed.


----------



## Danjanou

JM if it does come about then Sunil would actually qualify for a "real" medal as opposed to his eBay bling. Hmmm wonder what the order of wearing those would be.  8)


----------



## 1feral1

I thought I'd add this for ALCON's info.

Here is the Australian ADM criteria  http://www.defence.gov.au/medals/Content/+047%20ADM%20+%20ANSM/+070%20ADM/

Australian Defence Medal

The Australian Defence Medal (ADM) has been established to recognise Australian Defence Force Regular and Reserve personnel who have demonstrated their commitment and contribution to the nation by serving for an initial enlistment period or four years service whichever is the lesser. 

Her Majesty the Queen approved the Regulations and Letters Patent for the medal on 20 March 2006 and these were promulgated in Commonwealth of Australia Gazette No. S 48 of 30 March 2006 . 

The Medal 
The ADM is a cupro-nickel medal with the stylised version of the Commonwealth Coat of Arms used on the Australia Service Medal 1939-45 surrounded by the inscription 'THE AUSTRALIAN DEFENCE MEDAL' above a sprig of wattle on the obverse. The reverse has the inscription 'FOR SERVICE' below the Crown of St Edward all surrounded by a wattle wreath. The use of the wreath acknowledges the sacrifice of those who have died in service or been discharged due to injury resulting from service, a secondary qualification for the medal. 

The Ribbon 
The ADM ribbon is red with black edges, the colours of the Flanders poppy that represent the Anzac spirit of the Australian armed forces. The white stripes divide the ribbon into three, to denote the three Services and also represent service contributing to the peace of Australia . 

Eligibility 
The Australian Defence Medal recognises Australian Defence Force personnel who have efficiently completed either:

•an initial enlistment period, or 
•four years service, 
whichever is the lesser, and all of the relevant service was after 3 September 1945.

Included are former Defence Force members who did not complete the qualifying period because they: 

•died in service,
•were medically discharged (based upon individual circumstances), or
•left the service due to a Defence workplace policy of the time. (For example, in the past a woman was required to resign on marriage.) 
World War II veterans are not eligible for the Australian Defence Medal unless they were demobilised, re-enlisted after 3 September 1945 and then met the above criteria. The Australia Service Medal 1939-45 is the Australian award for the recognition of World War II service.

Order of Wear
The position of the ADM in the Australian Order of Wear may be found here. 

How to apply for the ADM 
Ex-Serving Members 
Applications should be made to Defence Honours and Awards, Department of Defence. 

In addition to being available via this website (click here), the application form for the ADM is available from the RSL and other Ex-Service Organisations. 

It is important that applicants provide proof of service with their application. This can include a certified true copy (no originals please) of their Certificate of Service or Discharge Certificate or any other official documents which confirm the length of their service. Providing these documents will greatly speed up the assessment process for the medal. Ex-serving personnel who do not have certificates of service or other supporting documentation, should not contact Central Army Records Office, Navy records or RAAF records. Their applications should be submitted to DH&A regardless, who will then contact the service archives on behalf of applicants to conduct an assessment. 

Permanent Members 
Current serving full-time members will be assessed automatically in line with the new process for assessing long service awards through PMKeys. 

It has been found however that some permanent members are not able to be assesses through this process. If this applies to you, please contact DH&A so that the matter can be rectified without delay. 

Reserve Members 
Reserve members will need to apply as DH&A is unable to assess eligibility automatically using PMKeyS. Reservists should have their application certified by their current Commanding Officer as this will expedite the assessment process. 

Reserve members, who have previously been awarded a long service award for fifteen or more years service will still need to apply. This is essential to ensure current contact/address details are recorded by DH&A for expedient dispatch of the medal. It should be noted however that this will not result in any delays with determining eligibility for the medal. 

Medal Presentation 
Recipients are encouraged to elect to have their medal presented to them by a senior military officer and their federal member of parliament at a ceremony in their electorate. 

These occasions have proved a very popular way to celebrate the awards with other recipients. You can bring up to three guests to witness this moving occasion. The ceremonies include light refreshments and are held twice a year in each electorate. 

To indicate your preference to receive your medal at a presentation ceremony, please tick the presentation box in the grey section at the bottom of the ADM application form. 

Medal Mounting 
If required, a medal mounting service can be provided from medals dealers whose details may be found under the medals section of the Yellow Pages. 

---------------------

I don't know about others, but I am quite proud of all my medals and my service. Spending over 34 years of my life in two armies from the frozen training areas of Dundurn as a 17 yr old, to patrolling the streets of Baghdad.

I signed the petiton, as have over 4,000 others.


OWDU


----------



## MaDB0Y_021

I don't think it would be a bad idea, personally, since serving in the CF comes with lots of sacrifices and all that...

But anyway. Yeah, like other said, money would be better spend on the equipment


----------



## LineJumper

Yawn....

Another medal for 'Showing up on time, or having buddies cover for you when you can't/won't' is certainly foolish. Do 12 like so many before have done and be proud of said freebee. I've seen far too many 'racks' while in Ottawa to believe another is necessary.

Please don't fire flame with 'not everyone is around for 12'. Certainly unfortunate, however out of mine or any other human hands.


----------



## George Wallace

I agree.   Why would we want to create a medal for someone who didn't want to Serve?  Do the time for the CD and then get a medal (CD).  Try out the military and then find it isn't your cup of tea; doesn't deserve the time (ours), money (pension), nor gong.


----------



## CountDC

I agree, this is a stupid idea - we already have the CD for committing to 12 years why would we need something for less?  With 25+ years I have never felt a need for another useless medal, in fact I always felt the CD was a waste.


----------



## vonGarvin

[rant]
The Canadian Forces Decoration is not a waste, IMHO.  It is of the type of medal known as a "Long Service and Good conduct Medal".  Not just 12 years, but also good conduct.  Bars awarded every ten years after that.  Think about it.  In our society, people rarely have the same job for 22 years, let alone 12.  It is a sign of dedication to service, and to call it a waste cheapens it, because not everyone gets one.
[/rant]


----------



## Edward Campbell

Recognition of service has always been important. Prior to _integration/unification_ in the 1960s, both the Navy and the Army recognized service in three year increments, if I recall correctly – the Navy by chevrons on one sleeve, below the rank badge* for ranks below CPO, the trade badge being on the other sleeve; and the Army with upside down chevrons (maximum three) on one sleeve, below the marksmanship badge, for corporals and privates (and assorted equivalents thereto). I cannot remember what happened to these stripes after one was awarded the CD.

Maybe that’s a better option than a medal.

-----
*The Navy, I think, had no rank badge for any one below leading seaman/corporal. But one did see _”three badge ABs”_ now and again (looking a bit like army sergeants) – long service sailors who had never achieved or had forfeited LS or better rank. (AB = able seaman, LS = leading seaman)


----------



## mariomike

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Maybe that’s a better option than a medal.



The lower left sleeve is the first thing I ( discreetly ) glance at whenever I meet a cop, fireman or paramedic for the first time. 
Every maple leaf ( or Maltese Cross or caduceus ) represents *five* years of completed service. 
There are also the Exemplary Service Medals. You get the medal after twenty years, and a bar every ten years thereafter.
http://archive.gg.ca/honours/medals/hon04-esm_e.asp
http://archive.gg.ca/honours/search-recherche/index_e.asp?TypeID=esm

In addition, the Province of Ontario and City of Toronto also award Long Service medals and bars to Police Officers, Firefighters and Paramedics. 



P.S.
Not sure if this was previously posted, or not. In case it has not:
http://communities.canada.com/ottawacitizen/blogs/defencewatch/archive/2009/09/05/pushing-for-a-governor-general-s-volunteer-service-medal-to-honor-veterans.aspx


----------



## CountDC

Sorry but that is my opinion made even more so when I found out that the GG receives it once sworn in.  Even the government and DND thought so little of it they felt it was suitable to give to the GG to dress him/her up which cheapens it IMO. 12 years without a charge is nothing special - look at how many of these are given out.  Nor does it actually mean good conduct - it only means you avoided being charged and found guilty. Some people say 12 years undetected crime while I say 12 years unprosecuted crime as I have seen so many cases of the wrist slap vice charges laid. If they stopped giving it to the GG (let them have their own medal if it is really needed) and set the first level at 22 years I would be more inclined to agree with them.

You of course are entitled to your opinion which I have heard many times and I have no problem with people viewing it as something worthy of the cost but I never will and feel it should be done away with.  Mind you I also feel Income Tax should be set at one flat rate for everyone with no deductibles, welfare should be for a limited number of years and jailbirds shouldn't be pampered but that won't happen either.


----------



## Michael OLeary

CountDC said:
			
		

> 12 years without a charge is nothing special - look at how many of these are given out.  Nor does it actually mean good conduct - it only means you avoided being charged and found guilty.



Shall we also do away with all those medals people get just because they went somewhere?  After all, it was only their job, why should we waste money on gongs for that?

And how about those ones that people get just because their boss says they did something special?  Doesn't that just smack of favoritism and leave out everyone else who just didn't get noticed as a special person?

Yup, lets do away with they whole damn medal thing, it's obviuosly a waste of our time and money.

May I suggest The Canadian Honours System, by Christopher McCreery, to improve your understanding of Canadian orders, decorations and medals.  While your opinion is no doubt of value to you, more facts might help you form a better argument to support it.


----------



## mariomike

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> May I suggest The Canadian Honours System, by Christopher McCreery, to improve your understanding of Canadian orders, decorations and medals.  While your opinion is no doubt of value to you, more facts might help you form a better argument to support it.



I have borrowed it from the library. It's a wonderful book. This is the authors website:
http://www.christophermccreery.com/#SlideFrame_1


----------



## Neill McKay

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> *The Navy, I think, had no rank badge for any one below leading seaman/corporal. But one did see _”three badge ABs”_ now and again (looking a bit like army sergeants) – long service sailors who had never achieved or had forfeited LS or better rank. (AB = able seaman, LS = leading seaman)



You're correct that there was no rank insignia until a sailor was promoted to LS and got his anchor (the origin of the term "killick" for a LS).  I believe good conduct badges were awarded (in the navy) for 3, 5, and 5 years respectively.  I don't think it was possible to have more than three, and forfeiture of one or more GC badges was a possible sentence if one was charged.


----------



## Towards_the_gap

I would have added my vote to the resounding NO pile but voting was closed. 

For the simple reasons:

Medals are for service above and beyond that normally is expected of you.

CD: 12 years of putting up with crap and missing your family.
Operational  Medals: Doing your job in varying amounts of danger, in various hellholes, again missing your family/loved ones, for a significant amount of time. Hence the 30day criteria for operational/campaign medals (at least in the brits, not so sure about here). You don't get one for just showing up in theatre.
Valour: self-explanatory. Most troops do things daily overseas that would earn cops/firefighters heaps of accolades, but it is considered part of the job. You really have to do something brave/outstanding to get one of these.

So a 'thanks for showing up medal' is really not in keeping with the idea of the honours and awards system at all. 

The same argument surfaced over in the UK with a proposed National Defence medal, and the same 'cold war and it's particular dangers' was used as an argument, leading many of those who are presently serving to see it as only a medal for those who got drunk in Hamburg every weekend, and not go through the tours that the present generation is going through. 

Yes we won the cold war, but it wasn't johnny canuck (or tommy atkins), going on exercise in Soltau that won it. Nor was it the duty free beer/smokes/cars/gas. And there shouldn't be a medal for it.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

I do not know if this discussion on Navy badges belongs here, but just for general historical info:

The Navy promoted by leadership skills, not trade knowledge. The seaman's uniforms had many various "patches" (for lack of better word): The rank badge (for leading hands and above), the trade identifier badge, the service badges, denoting years of service in rank, not to be confused with "Long Service and Good Conduct Medal" predecessor of the CD, and badges denoting trade qualification levels, which traditionally had three levels. 

Your AB three badges was so named because he wore the three badges denoting he had attained the highest level of trade qualification, which made him sometimes the peer in trade knowledge of POs and even CPOs, but lacked the leadership skills to act as a leading hand (remember the structure was simpler then: no master seaman. The ranks of the Leading Seaman were less numerous and more akin to the MS of today). Conversely, good leaders could be promoted to PO 2nd class even if they had not achieved their third level of trade qualification: Until they did, they were referred to as Petty Officer No Trade  and were employed in leadership roles of a general nature, such as watches, shore parties and work parties. They were not allowed to assume in trade supervisor role or draw charge money for such duties.


----------



## Old Sweat

I just received the following forwarded email (with the name of the original sender removed)

Thank you for your support for the Governor General's Volunteer Service Medal (GGVSM). This marks 3 1/2 years of efforts to try and bring this to the attention of our Government. This is about our all our Veterans and your personal efforts to support this is greatly appreciated.


By all means please forward this email to any and all, please forward at will!


A few million more voices in support of the comraderie of fellowship and the unity of comradeship...why not!



LETTER OF UNDERSTANDING

Recognition and Honour for our Veterans and Troops


How does one start to bring to the attention of others a much needed long overdue honour and recognition for thousands of Veterans and Troops? Remembrance is for all not just some! I hope a letter of understanding may be the answer in support of a proposed Governor General’s Volunteer Service Medal (GGVSM). It is important to know that the GGVSM Petition to ask for the creation of a new medal has been read in the House of Commons on 12 different occasions but this isn’t enough. We need the petition to be read in the House of Commons again and again and for this we need your help. 


To all Canadians, my neighbours, comrades, colleagues, associates and friends, I have struggled with this as it is adamantly important to the success of a lasting legacy for our Veterans…all of them. 


As individual Canadians it is within this letter that I ask for your trust, faith and understanding. It is my hope that you will fully comprehend that it is only by sharing the awareness and encouragement of a kind and meaningful gesture of remembrance, “your signature”, that we can accomplish this act of remembrance! This is a vitally important individual commitment of participation for honour, recognition and support. A goal to finally bring about this honour for the thousands of Veterans who voluntarily served our nation yet have not received a single Canadian medal to acknowledge their service.


Since March 1st, 1947, when the issuance of a Volunteer Service Medal for our Troops ceased, it was replaced with…nothing. Thousands of Canadians made the conviction to volunteer to serve and did so with dignity and honour, yet we as a nation have given them nothing to recognize this selfless act. For all, it is a duty that at anytime those that volunteer to serve do so knowing they may and often are called to duty serving anywhere in the world including theatres of war. Some did so and in this act of courage they paid the ultimate sacrifice…death. 


For many young Canadians who served and were honourably discharged they received nothing by way of a Canadian Medal to acknowledge their volunteer service. This lapse is critical to understanding the need for recognition. A commitment to serve is part of Canada’s Heritage and a Legacy for the Troops and their families. These young men and women who voluntarily served under the Commanders-in-Chief, the Governor Generals of Canada from 1947 to present were willing to put themselves in harms way. They have yet to be formally remembered for their role in the defence of our freedom and democracy. I know this begs the question why! 


For many of us, these medal-less Veterans are our comrades, brothers-in-arms and we share a kindred spirit with them. For others, they are our friends, neighbours, colleagues and ancestors. It should be a matter of espirit-des-corps for them as well as all our Veterans and Troops to have at least one medal honouring them. The proposed solution, the GGVSM would be issued to the thousands of Veterans that have honourably served since March 1947. For all Canadians, this is where each of you as an individual with all the entitlements and rights to Freedom of Speech are asked to help out with this cause and we humbly request from each of you your assistance with in doing three things:

1.       That all of you ask your Members of Parliament to have copies of the GGVSM Petition in their Constituency Office in your Riding so that you and all Canadians know where a copy is and have the opportunity to go in and sign it,

2.       That as many as possible go to the on-line GGVSM Petition website and sign the Petition for a Volunteer Service Medal for our Veterans, or get assistance from someone that has a computer to sign the on-line petition, and

3.       We need all of you to write individual “(regular post)” letters to (i) our Prime Minister and (ii) your Members of Parliament requesting their support of the GGVSM for the honour, recognition and remembrance of these our Comrades, Friends, Neighbours, Ancestors...our Veterans. 


What’s fascinating is what one learns about honour and where it lies when it comes to an approved Canadian Petition such as the GGVSM Petition. Any Canadian can sign it, there is no age restriction. To all, I hope this letter lends a hand towards a deeper understanding of what one signature at a time, one completed Petition at a time and a couple of letters from each of you can do for to bring about the proposed GGVSM for all of our Veterans.


With deepest appreciation for your support and understanding,

Remembrance of our Veterans is for all not just some,

Sincerely yours,


----------



## CountDC

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Shall we also do away with all those medals people get just because they went somewhere?  After all, it was only their job, why should we waste money on gongs for that?
> 
> And how about those ones that people get just because their boss says they did something special?  Doesn't that just smack of favoritism and leave out everyone else who just didn't get noticed as a special person?
> 
> Yup, lets do away with they whole damn medal thing, it's obviuosly a waste of our time and money.
> 
> May I suggest The Canadian Honours System, by Christopher McCreery, to improve your understanding of Canadian orders, decorations and medals.  While your opinion is no doubt of value to you, more facts might help you form a better argument to support it.



Are you serious about comparing a CD to ops medals??  Not even close in comparison.  Wow I showed up to work for 22 years in an office, didn't get charged and received the CD1 for being such a good boy.  Meanwhile some of the people who's pay and admin I took care of over the years were in foriegn countries getting shot at in some cases and facing the possibilty of it in all.  Hardly a comparison.  Don't try to turn my words into something they are not - at no point did I indicate a lack of respect for the medals people are earning by actually doing something other than just showing up.   That is after all what the CD is - show up for 12 years, don't get charged, here you go.  No comparison at all to the medals for the Ops our members are serving on in various countries around the world or the ones that members have received for performing outstanding acts.

As for more facts making an argument to support my opinion - no need for it as I do not intend to argue my opinion, I merely expressed it and as indicated respect that others have their own opinion.  No reason to argue over it - my opinion will not take it away from you anymore than it stopped them from making me march up and accept mine. You can feel free to wear it with pride while I feel free to consider it another piece of kit I have to look after.


----------



## Michael OLeary

My apologies, I apparently misinterpreted how you were choosing which medals to belittle through over-simplification of entitlement requirements.


----------



## Michael OLeary

I will credit Blackadder with one of the best posts on the forum regarding long (or short) service medals:



			
				Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> One of my lasting memories of someone talking about the decorations and medals that he was wearing occurred in 1994.  I had the good luck of having a COS date out of Lahr that permitted me to arrange my passage home on the Queen Elizabeth 2 sailing out of Southampton on 8 June.  I was able therefore to drive to Normandy and spend 6 June 94 (50th Anniversary of D-Day) visiting some of the memorials and events there; take the ferry across to England; turn my car over to Cunard for loading onto the ship and then relax for several days on the North Atlantic.  The voyage was billed as a “D-Day Memorial” cruise.  Many of the passengers were WW II veterans, mostly American, some Brits, and at least one Canadian.
> 
> One of the events that occurred on the ship was the Captain’s Welcome Party.  Dressed in finest bib and tucker, you go through the receiving line, have your photo taken and then proceed to the most important part of the soiree… getting a drink.  Some of the other passengers were wearing medals, ribbons or devices that showed that they had served.  I was in mess kit as were a few of the other passengers including a Van Doo LCol and a husband & wife who were both pilots in the USAF.   It was particularly easy for the Van Doo and me to be noticed in the scarlet monkey jackets.
> 
> A few people had approached me with the inevitable questions about who we were and what were we doing.  I was chatting with a lady when we were approached by a gentleman in a maroon jacket that included Cdn para wings and several medals.  He introduced himself and joined in the conversation which naturally turned to where had you been.  He had served with the 1 Cdn Para Bn as a private during the war and had made the jump into Normandy and over the Rhine.
> 
> The lady with whom we were chatting asked about the medals and wings he and I were wearing.  I probably would have answered in my typically flippant manner about 12 years undetected crime (C.D.), 6 months getting a suntan and not getting a venereal disease (UNEFME) and 4 years wine and beer tasting (SSM with NATO bar), but he replied first by drawing her attention to the one medal we had in common, the Canadian Forces Decoration.  I was surprised when he told her it was the one that he was most proud to wear.  The lady asked why.  His reply impressed me and later that evening I wrote an account of what he said, maybe not verbatim, because we had imbibed several beverages, but close enough for government work.
> 
> He said.  “ It’s easy to be a soldier when everyone is or wants to be a soldier; when being in uniform is the normal thing to do.  The true measure of a man is his commitment to serving his country when there is little chance of excitement, or glory or getting medals.  This medal (he indicated his CD) shows people that we pledged a significant portion of our lives to serving our country when few others would, doing things that we didn't necessarily want to do and that were not very glamorous.  These (he indicated his 4 or 5 wartime medals) I got for spending 3 years in uniform doing what most guys my age were doing. Was it hard work and dangerous? Yes. But mostly I had a lot of fun doing it.”
> 
> Since then I’ve had a different perspective on those little pieces of ribbon that we wear.



Other threads on the subject:

Medals Parade
How Long Have You Served in the CF?]
CF Short Service Medals
Military pushes overhaul of medal system
Should everyone get a CD?


----------



## Towards_the_gap

Nice letter Old Sweat, but what are the criteria for awarding of said medal? Is it supported by any relevant organisation? RCL? Regt'l associations?

The telling phrase in that whole spiel was *For many of us, these medal-less Veterans are our comrades*

Hmm...medal-less? So they didn't have the luck (or bad luck as the case may be) to deploy on operations. They got up, had breakfast, went to work, and went home, and now feel a bit sheepish when Rememberance Day rolls around and they see a 22 year old with the SWASM, GCS ISAF and possibly a valour decoration, so now they want a medal for having a service number and a pulse?

I'm sorry but if I spent time in the army and didn't deploy, yes I would still feel like a prick standing next to people who DID deploy, but I wouldn't dream of asking for a medal for just doing my day to day job.


----------



## 1feral1

Seems many on here are more concerned about themselves getting awarded this gong, and not about Veterans inwhich its all about.

WRT to that petition, its grown to around 4300.

I think we should see outside the box here, and looking down here, it did not hurt having such an award created. Comparing it to the 12 yr CD (here the sister medal is 15 yrs --w/bars after 5 yrs) as is the UK) is wrong, as thats not what it is for.

It works here perfectly, and the idea can work in Canada. In my opinion, we should stop thinking of ourselves, and think of others.

Take the time to read this, I did.

 LETTER OF UNDERSTANDING

Recognition and Honour for our Veterans and Troops



How does one start to bring to the attention of others a much needed long overdue honour and recognition for thousands of Veterans and Troops? Remembrance is for all not just some! I hope a letter of understanding may be the answer in support of a proposed Governor General’s Volunteer Service Medal (GGVSM). It is important to know that the GGVSM Petition to ask for the creation of a new medal has been read in the House of Commons on 12 different occasions but this isn’t enough. We need the petition to be read in the House of Commons again and again and for this we need your help. 



To all Canadians, my neighbours, comrades, colleagues, associates and friends, I have struggled with this as it is adamantly important to the success of a lasting legacy for our Veterans…all of them. 



As individual Canadians it is within this letter that I ask for your trust, faith and understanding. It is my hope that you will fully comprehend that it is only by sharing the awareness and encouragement of a kind and meaningful gesture of remembrance, “your signature”, that we can accomplish this act of remembrance! This is a vitally important individual commitment of participation for honour, recognition and support. A goal to finally bring about this honour for the thousands of Veterans who voluntarily served our nation yet have not received a single Canadian medal to acknowledge their service. 



Since March 1st, 1947, when the issuance of a Volunteer Service Medal for our Troops ceased, it was replaced with…nothing. Thousands of Canadians made the conviction to volunteer to serve and did so with dignity and honour, yet we as a nation have given them nothing to recognize this selfless act. For all, it is a duty that at anytime those that volunteer to serve do so knowing they may and often are called to duty serving anywhere in the world including theatres of war. Some did so and in this act of courage they paid the ultimate sacrifice…death. 



For many young Canadians who served and were honourably discharged they received nothing by way of a Canadian Medal to acknowledge their volunteer service. This lapse is critical to understanding the need for recognition. A commitment to serve is part of Canada’s Heritage and a Legacy for the Troops and their families. These young men and women who voluntarily served under the Commanders-in-Chief, the Governor Generals of Canada from 1947 to present were willing to put themselves in harms way. They have yet to be formally remembered for their role in the defence of our freedom and democracy. I know this begs the question why! 



For many of us, these medal-less Veterans are our comrades, brothers-in-arms and we share a kindred spirit with them. For others, they are our friends, neighbours, colleagues and ancestors. It should be a matter of esprit-des-corps for them as well as all our Veterans and Troops to have at least one medal honouring them. The proposed solution, the GGVSM would be issued to the thousands of Veterans that have honourably served since March 1947. For all Canadians, this is where each of you as an individual with all the entitlements and rights to Freedom of Speech are asked to help out with this cause and we humbly request from each of you your assistance with in doing three things:

1.       That all of you ask your Members of Parliament to have copies of the GGVSM Petition in their Constituency Office in your Riding so that you and all Canadians know where a copy is and have the opportunity to go in and sign it, and

2.       That as many as possible go to the on-line GGVSM Petition website and sign the Petition for a Volunteer Service Medal for our Veterans, or get assistance from someone that has a computer to sign the on-line petition, and

3.       We need all of you to write individual “(regular post)” letters to (i) our Prime Minister and (ii) your Members of Parliament requesting their support of the GGVSM for the honour, recognition and remembrance of these our Comrades, Friends, Neighbours, Ancestors...our Veterans. 



What’s fascinating is what one learns about honour and where it lies when it comes to an approved Canadian Petition such as the GGVSM Petition. Any Canadian can sign it, there is no age restriction. To all, I hope this letter lends a hand towards a deeper understanding of what one signature at a time, one completed Petition at a time and a couple of letters from each of you can do for to bring about the proposed GGVSM for all of our Veterans. Another neat thing is that there is no charge for letters sent to Parliament Hill, no stamps required if you live in Canada, but all other Canadians where every you may be I would surely welcome your support.



With deepest appreciation for your support and understanding,

Remembrance of our Veterans is for all not just some,

Sincerely yours,

Dave W. Palmer, CD

------------------------

Regards,

OWDU


----------



## Journeyman

OK, at this point we're into five pages of _opinion_. 

Based upon this completely unscientific survey, people wanting this 'medal' who:
*- are actually serving in the CF*:  0
*- a) haven't yet started/completed BMQ, or b) aren't even in the CF*: 4

Seems pretty straight-forward to me.  
If you're not _IN_ the Canadian Forces, please don't presume to speak on our behalf  :




Edited for clarity/typo


----------



## FDO

Correct me if I'm wrong but I know in Nova Scotia and Ontario They have Veteran's Plates for your car. All you need to do s serve 3 years in either Reg F or PRes. Lets stick with that. At least you can wear them all the time and EVERYONE on the street can see you once served no matter for how long. 

My vote is NO!!!


----------



## Infanteer

Nice post on the CD and what it means to professional soldiers from Blackadder; I personally look forward to earning it - it's meant alot of time spent away from my wife and children serving this country (I think I've been in my house once for over a month in the last 2-3 years).  Surprisingly, the date seems closer then I thought!

As for short service recognition, I agree with E.R.C.'s point on the service stripes; I always liked the look of a USMC SNCO with 6 of the stripes on his dress uniform.

Anyways, my 2 cents.


----------



## mariomike

There are some differences, to me, between the C.V.S.M. and the G.G.V.S.M.. 
The CVSM was established on October 22, 1943 and issued in recognition of eighteen months of voluntary service in the Canadian Forces. There was the Italian Campaign, Normandy in the near future, and Japan, where an all out invasion of the home islands seemed almost inevitible. But, from what my father told me, you had to re-sign ( which he did ) for Japan after VE-Day. Otherwise, you were discharged. In the end, of course, it didn't much matter because VJ Day came much sooner than was expected.
Although the RCNVR and RCAF had sufficient volunteers, the Army did not:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_Crisis_of_1944#Introduction_of_Conscription
As I understand it, CVSM recipients were required to sign on, full-time, for the duration of the war, and serve overseas, if required.
There was a call for volunteers, backed up with the threat of conscription, that we have not seen since World War Two.
The reason I mention the CVSM in my post is because the petition that Canadians are signing asks for the GGVSM to be retro-active to 1947, when the CVSM ended. They don't use the word "replacement", but that's what it reads like, to me:
"Since March 1st, 1947, when the issuance of a Volunteer Service Medal for our Troops ceased, it was replaced with…nothing."
The petition seems to be comparing the two medals, one replacing the other, so to speak. When in fact, we know them to be different.
I understand that draftees were not eligible for the CVSM. If they volunteered, before getting drafted, they could choose which branch of service. I have heard such cases referred to as "hand-cuff" volunteers.

I can understand the arguments both for, and against, the GGVSM.  
I have no dog in this fight.  
I would never be eligible for a GGVSM, as they already gave me the 20 year Exemplary ( I never did anything "exemplary". I just went where they sent me. ) Service Medal, with 30 year bar; "provided this service has not been recognized by another long service, good conduct or efficiency decoration or medal awarded by the Crown."


----------



## Old Sweat

You have got it a little backwards. Volunteers were awarded the CVSM in time (after all the second word in the title is Volunteer), while draftees were not, at least not until after they volunteered for General Service.  As for the number of volunteers to man the army, the 1944 shortage of infantry reinforcements was more a matter of getting the ratio of casualties for infantry and the other arms and services wrong, than it was a shortage of manpower. That is not to say that the latter was not a factor, but it was not the overriding issue.

That, of course, has nothing to do with the GGSM, which does not give me a warm and fuzzy feeling at all.


----------



## 1feral1

Journeyman said:
			
		

> OK, at this point we're into five pages of _opinion_.
> 
> Based upon this completely unscientific survey, people wanting this 'medal' who:
> *- are actually serving in the CF*:  0
> *- a) haven't yet started/completed BMQ, or b) aren't even in the CF*: 4
> 
> Seems pretty straight-forward to me.
> If you're not _IN_ the Canadian Forces, please don't presume to speak on our behalf  :



If this was directed at me, I think my 18 years, 11 months and 22 days as a member of the CF counts in my opinion.

Have a squizz at the views of those who signed, many are Vets, some the family of vets, and as Cdn citizens who just want some Vets to be recognised I beleive they have a rightious opinion. even this Palmer bloke is a former member with a CD.

Their expressions put forward show their pride and positivity towards Veterans, and in this day in age when there is so much negativity, this is overall for the good. To see citizens wanting something for our Vets instead of seeing them getting short changed is a good idea.

Its matter of time before something like this award comes into Canada IMHO, that I can assure you. A few disgruntled on here on this site I don't think will make a lick of difference.

Yes like I said the award works here, and there is not much difference between you and us down here. However I will conciede that the cultures of Defence here and there are growing apart. The constant whinging and bickering of such pettiness from medals to combat badges has me baffled.

IMHO serving members should not have the right to decide what awards they can or cannot have, or should have. That demonstrates selfishness, arrogance and outright contempt.

OWDU

EDITed for clairty and spelling






[/quote]


----------



## Journeyman

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> Have a squizz at the views of those who signed, many are Vets, some the family of vets, and as Cdn citizens who just want some Vets to be recognised I beleive they have a rightious opinion. even this Palmer bloke is a former member with a CD.


Nice rant; what's a squizz?

The bottom line, from the poll numbers at the top and the comments posted, is that serving CF members see no need for this medal. If you're that desperate for bling, join the Frontiersmen.


ps - spell check is free; give it a shot.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Journey, Australian slang

Squizz (noun) : look - "take a squizz at this" 

If you guys are going to continue the mud slinging please take it to PM's........

Anyways as a guy who is due to get the "thanks for coming out medal" next year my  :2c: is that the current members of the CF don't need this proposed medal..... those that have been out since the inception (correct word?) of the CD maybe should be considered .....

EDITED TO ADD

Also maybe give it to members who have left the CF and have not been in long enough to be awarded the CD be awarded the GGSM.......


----------



## Journeyman

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Journey, Australian slang
> 
> Squizz (noun) : look - "take a squizz at this"
> 
> If you guys are going to continue the mud slinging please take it to PM's........


I actually understood (and it's a verb   ). I just have this affection for the English language, used properly. 

As for mud-slinging, I simply summed the comments by source; my feelings certainly weren't hurt.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Ack, Journey....

Sapper, out....


----------



## Towards_the_gap

Well it reeks of walt-ism to me. What more do those who have served need? already there's veterans plates, the RCL, regt'l assoc's and tie's/blazers, Veterans Day, Veterans Affairs Canada, Veterans Memorial Parkways.........

....The knowledge that you put your hand up and volunteered should be enough, along with the memories, t-shirts, course photos etc. Handing out a medal for like I said having a pulse and a service number cheapens both the medal itself, and the wearer.

Imagine I were stood next to a GGVSM wearer on rememberance day. Joe civvy comes up and asks the two of us: What are those medals for? 

Me: 2 tours to Afghanistan with the British Army
GGVSM holder: .....well nothing, joining up and serving a specified amount of time. 

Now, this is not to say that our GGVSM holder's sevice is in any way less than mine per se, but I served on ops. He didn't. Why should he get a medal for essentially working a 9-5 job (apart from Ex's), sports afternoons, adventure training etc etc.

Agree with Journeyman, if you really feel less of a man cause you have no gongs, either volunteer yourself for a tour (they're not hard to get on these days) or join the frontiersmen and buy yourself all the gongs you want.


----------



## mariomike

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> What more do those who have served need? already there's veterans plates, the RCL, regt'l assoc's and tie's/blazers, Veterans Day, Veterans Affairs Canada, Veterans Memorial Parkways.........



And the greatest equalizer of them all. The National Military Cemetery of Canada.


----------



## Rifleman62

Show stopper mariomike!

Great Comment. Reminds me of the story of the WWII boundary of the Big Red One. Sign stated "1st US Infantry Division, Second To None".  Brit unit next door, erected one word signage: "None"


----------



## 1feral1

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Nice rant; what's a squizz?
> 
> The bottom line, from the poll numbers at the top and the comments posted, is that serving CF members see no need for this medal. If you're that desperate for bling, join the Frontiersmen.
> 
> 
> ps - spell check is free; give it a shot.




JM,

Its no rant, just an opinion set forth in a polite fashion to enhance a positive debate, nothing more.

A small and old poll of just 40 for, and 56 against is really baseless. In reality, I think we all can agree that the federal government informed by 1000's of its citizens rallying for this award will decide. I am sure there are dozens of thousands of former Mbrs from all services and their families who would appreciate such. 

In time, this award may come about (and maybe not), and you, I and others who meet the criteria might/will be awarded it. What you do with it is your business.

As for 'bling' as you call it, personally I have more respect for anyone's medals than that, as many have been killed and wounded wearing the same ones that I have been awarded.

As I said, the idea for this type of medal has worked here, and this is what the Cdn award is in many ways being based on. Anyone interested can re-read the criteria for the Australian Defence Medal.

As for your affection with the english language, squizz is in the Australian dictionary, and is used as often as the word 'the' here. We still spell things correctly to the Queen's version. Tyre, neighbour etc, as there is no Americanisation of english here (yet). Your link providing rude sexual alternative definitions of the word 'squizz' is rather tasteless, insulting and unnecessary and most likely violates the guidlines of this fine site. If you already knew what the word meant, why post the link?

As for my spelling errors, these are entirely my own, as spell check refuses to load on this site for me (times out), it was early and I had to get to work. I simply missed these errors. I am an educated man, been around for over half a century, and for these errors, I appologise.

We all have opinions JM, and I am for such an award to our Veterans (living and dead), and you (and others) are not, and thats fair enough.

Time will tell for this award.

Kind regards,

OWDU

Edited for spelling


----------



## Journeyman

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> In reality, I think we all can agree that the federal government informed by 1000's of its citizens rallying for this award will decide.


 :rofl:


...oh, you were serious. 
A _Facebook petition_ will compel the government to create an unnecessary medal?

Wow. I'm done


----------



## 1feral1

Your posts are unproductive and somewhat rude, but think what you must. The petition I viewed and signed was not a facebook one, I reseached the subject on google.

No matter how info is gathered these days, thousands of signatures are still that, and an election year is coming. Like I said, time will tell about this award. You might be correct, and on the other hand this award might come to be reality. 


The ADM happened here with success, public input to the federal government over a few years and the ADM was adopted ADF wide. Its not an unnecessary medal in this country, and I am quite proud of mine.

JM, you don't have to post a link on this site to porograhic/offensive material to prove whatever point you are attempting to make, or to make myself or any other member on here look like a fool, its really unbecomming.


Do have a happy day.

OWDU

EDITed for clarity, and to add the link in question has been deleted by the Mods.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

I think everyone has had enough proselytizing and sanctimonious indignation.

Mods will do their jobs when it is required.

Enough.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## Towards_the_gap

Well anyways, if they don't award it...good. There are more important things to spend money on.

And if they do go ahead with it and issue it? I'll send mine right back.


----------



## 1feral1

TTG, fair enough. Thanks for you positive input here allbeit against this award, but honest, and this is admired. I do see exactly where you are coming from.

Like I said, the idea works here, and we cannot please everyone. The original Australian award was to be for 6 yrs, and this was changed to 4. Time will tell where this Canadian version of this award will go.

Your answer above, although I do not agree is respected.

Cheers,

OWDU

EDITed for mispelling Canadian  :


----------



## CountDC

OWDU - although I do not agree with the medal myself I would like to congratulate you on your well mannered posts and info points in support of it.  Keep up the good work.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

;D


----------



## 1feral1

CDC, thanks for the kind words.

This is what Palmer had to say about the Australian Defence Medal.....

Recently our ally, our commonwealth colleague Australia honoured their Veterans and their Troops with a Medal that was approved by Her Majesty the Queen in March of 2006...the Australian Defence Medal (ADM). The ADM is retroactive to 3 September 1945 and it is estimated the issue will be approximately 1 million. What are we as Canadians so ashamed of and so embarrassed about when it comes to righting the wrong that occurred in 1947 with the cessation of our Canadian Volunteer Service Medal (CVSM)? 

Like I have said, the Medal/idea sucessfully works here. No backbiting, bellyaching or whinging.

Regards,

Wes


----------



## IntlBr

If the will of the government is behind it, then it will likely happen - but I must take issue with the suggested name.  What ass-hat decided it should be at the behest of the GG?

Canada Defence Medal - Okay
Queen's Canadian Volunteer Service Medal - Sure!
Canadian Volunteer Service Medal - Homage to the original, absolutely!

GGCVSM?  No thank you.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Well, if she's going to do it, she better get at it before Harper replaces her. These things aren't done overnight. Which makes me think it won't happen anyway. At least not out of that office and not this term.


----------



## CountDC

Corps of Guides said:
			
		

> If the will of the government is behind it, then it will likely happen - but I must take issue with the suggested name.  What ***-hat decided it should be at the behest of the GG?
> 
> Canada Defence Medal - Okay
> Queen's Canadian Volunteer Service Medal - Sure!
> Canadian Volunteer Service Medal - Homage to the original, absolutely!
> 
> GGCVSM?  No thank you.



Good point - if they are going to do it then just call it what it is  - Canadian Volunteer Service Medal gets my vote for name.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Arguing for or against a new medal based on the naming is a red herring (would that be less of a focus if the GG was a retired and well-respected General?), the underlying question is _"will it serve a necessary purpose and have a creditable place among existing and past medals which recognized periods of service?"_


----------



## Edward Campbell

Is there and age/years of service _gap_ here?

Do some (many? most?) younger/junior people favour medals over e.g. wound stripes or chevrons for service?

Would those who prefer the Sacrifice Medal to wound strips and a CVSM (or whatever) over service chevrons also prefer a marksmanship _medal_ over a sleeve badge?






 versus 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



                                                               (I know it's not the right badge, but it's the closest I could find.)

Is it _bling_ over drab cloth or is just because others (mostly the Americans, but the Australians, too) have it?

Or am I _waaaaay_ off base, again?  :-\


----------



## Michael OLeary

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Or am I _waaaaay_ off base, again?  :-\



It's bling.  The target market appears to be all those re-awakened past members who served without operational deployments and did not stay in long enough for a CD.  They want to reconnect and have something to wear at the Legion, at the cenotaph and anywhere else they want to share the renewed attention to the CF and those who (have) serve(d).


----------



## CountDC

I don't think anyone was really arguing for or against the medal based on name, I think the point was that if we are going to have it then lets at least give it a proper name and leave the GG out of it.

Here is another question:

Does everyone get the medal regardless of release reason?  example - Johnny gets booted for using drugs too many times, does he deserve a medal to show off?


----------



## dapaterson

I fear this new medal will be insufficiently inclusive.  Therefore, I propose another new decoration:

The TAJUBNGMAOTC, or  "Thought  About Joining Up But Never Got My Ass Off The Couch" medal.


Medal Front:





Medal Reverse:


----------



## 1feral1

CountDC said:
			
		

> I don't think anyone was really arguing for or against the medal based on name, I think the point was that if we are going to have it then lets at least give it a proper name and leave the GG out of it.
> 
> Here is another question:
> 
> Does everyone get the medal regardless of release reason?  example - Johnny gets booted for using drugs too many times, does he deserve a medal to show off?



Check out the Australian criteria.

I have never heard of someone getting a 'dishonourable', and getting the medal, for starters you must do a mininum of 4 yrs service and/or met the critera for this award.

Cheers,

Wes


----------



## Fishbone Jones

CountDC said:
			
		

> I don't think anyone was really arguing for or against the medal based on name, I think the point was that if we are going to have it then lets at least give it a proper name and leave the GG out of it.
> 
> Here is another question:
> 
> Does everyone get the medal regardless of release reason?  example - Johnny gets booted for using drugs too many times, does he deserve a medal to show off?





			
				Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> Check out the Australian criteria.
> 
> I have never heard of someone getting a 'dishonourable', and getting the medal, for starters you must do a mininum of 4 yrs service and/or met the critera for this award.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Wes



So far this medal is no more than someone's pipe dream. Some people within Canada are petitioning the government for it's adoption. The government, to this point, has shown no real interest. As a result, no criteria has been evolving. i.e.: who gets it.

IF it comes about, and IF the government decides to study it, it will be properly staffed and executed, including the requirements for elegibility. While the committee MAY research it, they are under no obligations to look at, consult or depend upon what some other country deems appropriate for it's people. It will be a Canadian award for Canadians, or whomever the criteria fits. I don't care what the US or Australia does. What they have to do for their award is immaterial to us. While other countries have similar awards, I only need to read about them once to understand it and consider the points for discussion.


----------



## LineJumper

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I fear this new medal will be insufficiently inclusive.  Therefore, I propose another new decoration:
> 
> The TAJUBNGMAOTC, or  "Thought  About Joining Up But Never Got My *** Off The Couch" medal.


 ;D

Google is apparently not my friend. I was looking for a poster I saw once in Bosnia with faux medals that was really quite humourous.


----------



## Michael OLeary

LineJumper said:
			
		

> ;D
> 
> Google is apparently not my friend. I was looking for a poster I saw once in Bosnia with faux medals that was really quite humourous.



This one?:


----------



## LineJumper

That's exactly it, thanks Michael :blotto:


----------



## CountDC

recceguy said:
			
		

> So far this medal is no more than someone's pipe dream. Some people within Canada are petitioning the government for it's adoption. The government, to this point, has shown no real interest. As a result, no criteria has been evolving. i.e.: who gets it.
> 
> IF it comes about, and IF the government decides to study it, it will be IMproperly staffed and executed, including the requirements for elegibility. While the committee MAY research it, they are under no obligations to look at, consult or depend upon what some other country deems appropriate for it's people but will to drag it out and make more money off the tax payers. It will be a Canadian award for Canadians, or whomever the criteria fits. I don't care what the US or Australia does. What they have to do for their award is immaterial to us me. While other countries have similar awards, I only need to read about them once to understand it and consider the points for discussion.



there was a point in there correct?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

CountDC said:
			
		

> there was a point in there correct?



The point was exactly as stated, sorry if you have trouble comprehending it. Most don't, but I can't write to everyone's intellect, or lack thereof. Maybe I can figure out how to draw stick figures here.

Don't be putting words in my post that I never intended. I don't care if you agree, so quit trolling.

As for the minor spelling correction, you're friggin' brilliant, you must be proud.


----------



## Good2Golf

Staying on topic works well for these kinds of things, folks.

Let's keep the P in PM, danke.


*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## CountDC

recceguy said:
			
		

> The point was exactly as stated, sorry if you have trouble comprehending it. Most don't, but I can't write to everyone's intellect, or lack thereof. Maybe I can figure out how to draw stick figures here.
> 
> Don't be putting words in my post that I never intended. I don't care if you agree, so quit trolling.
> 
> As for the minor spelling correction, you're friggin' brilliant, you must be proud.



Oh, I see the point - it was that you didn't like that people were discussing the medal and the possibilities, looking at other countries to see what they have done and in general not jumping on your band wagon.

It's funny that you mention troll as that is how I viewed your post - a troll into a question and answer between me and OWDU.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

CountDC said:
			
		

> Oh, I see the point - it was that you didn't like that people were discussing the medal and the possibilities, looking at other countries to see what they have done and in general not jumping on your band wagon.
> 
> It's funny that you mention troll as that is how I viewed your post - a troll into a question and answer between me and OWDU.



The thread doesn't belong to you and some select group 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, whether you like it or not.

You also need a new group of friends, because the person you got to explain my post to you, seems to be as equally challenged in the english language department as you are.

Feel free to keep yanking the thread of course with your personal pissing contest


----------



## Swingline1984

recceguy said:
			
		

> So far this medal is no more than someone's pipe dream. Some people within Canada are petitioning the government for it's adoption. The government, to this point, has shown no real interest. As a result, no criteria has been evolving. i.e.: who gets it.



I beg to differ, the NDP is all over it  : :  http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Docid=4330129&file=4

I also noticed Bill C-231: An Act respecting the establishment and award of a Special Service Medal for Domestic Emergency Relief Operations (also NDP) was not re-introduced in the 40th Parliament (it had been kicking around since 2004) so this is obviously a re-jigged attempt to establish some type of recognition, for in all honesty, just being a dude in uniform.


----------



## vonGarvin

How about a medal for Op HALO first?

Just saying


----------



## medicineman

Technoviking said:
			
		

> How about a medal for Op HALO first?
> 
> Just saying



I second that one...I'm sure the young guy that left here with 1CFH will have his SSM well before I retire - which will likely be when we see the OP Halo medal  :.

MM


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Swingline1984 said:
			
		

> I beg to differ, the NDP is all over it  : :  http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Docid=4330129&file=4
> 
> I also noticed Bill C-231: An Act respecting the establishment and award of a Special Service Medal for Domestic Emergency Relief Operations (also NDP) was not re-introduced in the 40th Parliament (it had been kicking around since 2004) so this is obviously a re-jigged attempt to establish some type of recognition, for in all honesty, just being a dude in uniform.



I believe neither is the same as the award being discussed. All three seem to differ completely in the perceived criteria and overall purpose. Just my take on the whole smoz though, I could be reading it wrong.


----------



## Swingline1984

recceguy said:
			
		

> I believe neither is the same as the award being discussed. All three seem to differ completely in the perceived criteria and overall purpose. Just my take on the whole smoz though, I could be reading it wrong.



I think you're right.  After a re-read I noticed I missed the drop dead date of 1989.


----------



## Journeyman

OK, I _know_ I said I was done with this thread, but........now you're saying there are people out there trying to create _three_ new medals:

- Defence of Canada Medal (1946-1989), for personally having defeated the godless communist hoards;

- Special Service Medal for Domestic Emergency Relief Operations, for watching troops shoveling out Toronto bus shelters (even though the buses weren't running), or standing by to dog-paddle south of Winnipeg because nobody figured the annual floods would happen....again ; and

- Governor-General's Service Medal, for....well, for having actually made it through BMQ.

:rofl:


Dumb idea3
.....I may have to work on my tan and start calling myself the last King of Scotland.   ;D


OK, _now_ I'm done -- I hope I can sleep nights, waiting.


----------



## LineJumper

Journeyman said:
			
		

> - Special Service Medal for Domestic Emergency Relief Operations, for watching troops shoveling out Toronto bus shelters (even though the buses weren't running), or standing by to dog-paddle south of Winnipeg because nobody figured the annual floods would happen....again ; and



Come on, some of us did alot of poleclimbing on icy poles, and I learned that filling sandbags with little conveyor belt/hopper thingy kicks arse over a shovel. Driving around with an HL dropping off troops to dig scrapes in Kelowna was terribly exhausting. Oh yeah, without possible flooding in BC, I'd not have had the distinct pleasure of piloting an LS over the Coquihala.

Just sayin....

 :warstory:


----------



## Swingline1984

Journeyman said:
			
		

> ...now you're saying there are people out there trying to create _three_ new medals:



Only 1 person.  The other 2 are being pushed by the NDP, a species similar to a small root vegetable.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

If I had wanted, or cared, about a medal I would have stayed in the 2 3 [oops, forgot the forfeiture ] more years.....................

Spend my 30 bucks on a delivered meal for a shut-in Vet.


----------



## SeanNewman

I think the comparison with the Americans is a non-starter.

Few of us would argue that they may over-recognize people (the stereotypical "here's a ribbon for tying your boots"), however they also recognize people in good ways too.

We have guys doing amazing things on tour and then due to our red tape the poor guys doesn't get his medal for three years.  Americans can pop a medal on a guy when he gets back to the FOB.  Do they get it wrong sometimes?  Maybe, but they also get it right 90% of the time and for all those guys who deserve it, they're recognized properly as opposed to when they get home and are posted to a different unit with different people.

Anyway, back to the topic of this medal, I think people can be recognized for a general/voluntary-type medal, as long as everyone is treated equally.  

The only thing I can't stand is when they come out with the kinds of medals like the Jubilee where only a few thousand are awarded with completely wide open arcs and no criteria, so a general's numpty captain aide gets the thing instead of the soldiers who have burned a few more calories in their service to Canada.


----------



## kj_gully

I think presenting a "coin" would be appropriate. We can add that one to the growing pile in each of our sock drawers, with the most meaningful ones well and truly buried by the numerous Dental detachment officer commanding coins etc that are the current rage. There must have been a senoir leadership meeting on how the troops love to get tokens... (my wife is in Dental, the coin is fictional, for now..)


----------



## Towards_the_gap

Or perhaps a pin, like the UK version:

http://www.veterans-uk.info/vets_badge/vets_badge.htm

Uggh....I hate coins. Thankfully I have yet to receive one but I honestly DO NOT SEE THE POINT in handing someone a cheap bit of tin with an army crest on it. That is something we got from the Americans which I wish we would do away with. Reeks of pointless backslapping/chest thumping, 'look at me'-ism. Like the proposed medal.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Coins may have their place, but they've been well abused by "cheapest bidder" product and produced in numbers so great that a commander (or RSM, etc.) hands one to every driver and clerk or staff officer they walk past, just because they're trying to empty their pocket of that visit's allocation of coinage.  But a coin won't satisfy the vocal crew wishing for a bit of chest bling.

A lapel pin could work, with the right official backing. It would be as valid as the recently produced pins that get handed out on retirement from the Reg F with all the other Depart with Dignity items.

It could be as simple as a quality design with the tri-force emblem and a banner beneath saying "I Served".  Authorize the design, produce it centrally, and let those who want one to wear purchase it.  Secondly, authorize a design pattern and let regiments and corps produce matching designs with their own badge emblems.  But, and this would be the important aspect, copyright the basic pattern as an official display of having served, and make the wearing of one fall under the same regulations as wearing a medal one hasn't earned (i.e., wearing it to imply that you did earn it). Make the symbol official and recognized by the public ... and then defend against it's use by others like the Legion does the poppy symbol.


----------



## AmmoTech90

A tri-service pin is handed out now.  My wife just got her release package, included a Certificate of Service, a nice letter and oval lapel pin with the tri-service crest and CANADA over the top and SERVICE in the lower rocker.
All in a nice white jewelry box with the tri-service crest on top.
This was on transferring to the sup reserve after around 16 years combined reg and reserve.

By the way, is retired member ID card only issued to those pers retired with a pension (please PM if you know the answer to keep this on topic).


----------



## daftandbarmy

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> Or perhaps a pin, like the UK version:
> 
> http://www.veterans-uk.info/vets_badge/vets_badge.htm
> 
> Uggh....I hate coins. Thankfully I have yet to receive one but I honestly DO NOT SEE THE POINT in handing someone a cheap bit of tin with an army crest on it. That is something we got from the Americans which I wish we would do away with. Reeks of pointless backslapping/chest thumping, 'look at me'-ism. Like the proposed medal.



The British have their own 'I served when there wasn't a real war on (except for NI) medal' campaign. Many would like an equivalent of the SSM issued for their Cold Warriors. Much commentary on ARRSE: http://www.arrse.co.uk/Forums/viewtopic/t=111585/postdays=0/postorder=asc/start=0.html

The nice but cheesy 'Vets Badge'? I've got one... meh. Nice thought, but not required, and not likely to make it onto my blazer collar in the near future.

And coins... don't get me started. We had a soldier presented with an LFC Comd's coin recently. He performed very well during a big drama involving the three Bs (bullets, bombs and blood) in AFG . "So why didn't they at least give him an MiD?" I said, "Shut up" they replied... oh well.


----------



## 1feral1

WRT Vets badges, Canada like other Commonwealth countries has had these since at least post WW1, with one serialed to the recipient, and had recognition for time served at the front.

Australia has the Returned from Active Service badge, which has changed only from King's crown to Queen's, and are given out along with the Australian Active Service Medal. The badge is so noted on your awards/dec's section of your pers file.

It identifies other Vets for social gatherings at ANZAC Day, Long Tan Day, Remberance Day etc, and most (if not all) of us wear them. Again a tradition here which is always well recieved by everyone.

This badge is for being on active service, not for general service.

I have that little bronze coloured CF pin which I also wear alongside the RAS badge, and I am just as proud of that as any embellishments I wear on certain occasions.

Regards,

OWDU


----------



## Neill McKay

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> A tri-service pin is handed out now.  My wife just got her release package, included a Certificate of Service, a nice letter and oval lapel pin with the tri-service crest and CANADA over the top and SERVICE in the lower rocker.



If I'm not mistaken, that pin is connected with the CD (i.e. only given, on release, to those who have it).


----------



## Danjanou

N. McKay said:
			
		

> If I'm not mistaken, that pin is connected with the CD (i.e. only given, on release, to those who have it).



Someone owes me a goodie  package then. All I got when I pulled pole was a bill from the QM for kit they claimed I still owed. :


----------



## daftandbarmy

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Someone owes me a goodie  package then. All I got when I pulled pole was a bill from the QM for kit they claimed I still owed. :



So, you didn't get the mess bill too? I'll see what I can do about that....  ;D


----------



## Danjanou

Which one? By my count I've been tossed out of  er a avalued paid up member of 6 JR messes and 5 Wo & Sgts Messes, and that don't include Regimental Associations.  8)

Now back on topic here's a thought. The plan for this gong is that you would have the name of the GG who was in when you enrolled on the bar. What happens if like D&B and so many others you join, quit, and join agian later and it's another GG in residence ? Do they issue you multiple bars? How do you explain these bars at the local Hug and Slug  er RCL branch on Nov 11th?  :worms: :stirpot:


----------



## Haggis

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Which one? By my count I've been tossed out of  er a avalued paid up member of 6 JR messes and 5 Wo & Sgts Messes, and that don't include Regimental Associations.  8)
> 
> Now back on topic here's a thought. The plan for this gong is that you would have the name of the GG who was in when you enrolled on the bar. What happens if like D&B and so many others you join, quit, and join agian later and it's another GG in residence ? Do they issue you multiple bars? How do you explain these bars at the local Hug and Slug  er RCL branch on Nov 11th?  :worms: :stirpot:



Simple:

- One medal, with a bar awarded for each GG you have served under.

- If you release and re-enrol and a new GG is appointed while you are "out", you get another medal (once you have, again, met the criteria) to wear witr your orginal medal, with one bar on each.

- If, like D&B, you serve in more than one military, you can wear both (or all) medals, in the order of precedence of when that nation became part of the Commonwealth (youngest nations on the outside).

- If you transfer to the Reserves before being eligible for the medal while in the Reg Force, the clock gets reset to zero and you must start accumulating creditable time all over again, but this time each "day" is only with 1/4 time.  Therefore, to accumulate 4 years of eligible Reserve service you would need to parade a minimum of four days a month for 30 years before qualifiying (I heard this argument being made for Reserve CD eligibility a couple of years ago)

- If you transfer from the Reserves to the Reg Force, all your Reserve time is counted as four for one, unless you served on an operational tour, at which time your operational service is counted one-for-one, except if the operation was commanded by the UN, in which case time doesn't count for either Reg Force or Reserves.

Now THAT's how you stir the pot!!!!

(The preceding post is not a flame of Reservists (I am one), just an attack on the artificial, arbitrary and discriminatory criteria that are are being bandied about for a medal we will probably never see.)


----------



## ModlrMike

Interesting... 

Having read through all 129 messages on the topic I'm struck by the similarities between this discussion, and the one that occurred when the CPSM was being considered.


----------



## armyvern

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Interesting...
> 
> Having read through all 129 messages on the topic I'm struck by the similarities between this discussion, and the one that occurred when the CPSM was being considered.



_Off thread topic in reply to yours:_

Interesting that you mention the CPSM; just last week I was all dolled up in my 1As (I wore the skirt - I sit in a classroom all day) for a video tele-conference; One of the questions that I was asked was "explain what each of your medals is for" (in french of course). My answers (also in french):

CPSM: This is called the CPSM; I was awarded it because I was awarded _this one_ by the UN (points at UNTAG medal --- _this_ one).


The rest of the class snickered in the background (in agreement), but heck ... if I hadn't had that UNTAG ... I wouldn't have gotten that CPSM until I had gotten my UNDOF ... so it's entertaining ... but 100% true. How the heck else would one explain it?

_Back on topic:_

I'm still NOT convinced about the validity of this thread subject ...

Must serve honourably;
Must serve "X" amount of time;
Don't have to do any Op Tours or out of country tours (ie total "X" time can be 100% 'domestic';
Must volunteer for service (last time I checked, we didn't conscript anyone); and
Must be released under honourable circumstances.

Sounds a heck of a lot just like ... the CD -- to which the same criteria are applicable ... less the release factor. So, if that's the case ...

Let's save the taxpayers a crapload of money in this time of fiscal restraint and just drop the "TI" criteria down to 3 or 4 years (or whatever they propose for this new one) and start handing out the CD then instead.


----------



## Michael OLeary

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> _Back on topic:_
> 
> I'm still NOT convinced about the validity of this thread subject ...
> 
> Must serve honourably;
> Must serve "X" amount of time;
> Don't have to do any Op Tours or out of country tours (ie total "X" time can be 100% 'domestic';
> Must volunteer for service (last time I checked, we didn't conscript anyone); and
> Must be released under honourable circumstances.
> 
> Sounds a heck of a lot just like ... the CD -- to which the same criteria are applicable ... less the release factor. So, if that's the case ...
> 
> Let's save the taxpayers a crapload of money in this time of fiscal restraint and just drop the "TI" criteria down to 3 or 4 years (or whatever they propose for this new one) and start handing out the CD then instead.



If you go to the current petition by the gentleman referenced in the very first post, you'll see that the originator has suggested a term of service of "365 days of uninterrupted honourable duty".



> We, the undersigned residents of Canada, respectfully call upon the Government of Canada, to recognize by means of the issuance of a new Canadian Volunteer Service Medal, to be designated “The Governor General’s Volunteer Service Medal”, for volunteer service by Canadians in the Regular and Reserve Military Forces and Cadet Corps Support Staff who were not eligible for the aforementioned medals and who have completed 365 days of uninterrupted honourable duty in the service of their country Canada, since 2 March 1947.



One year.

So, how many people who VR'd from PAT Platoon before they completed their "3's" would be eligible? Why not just make it the "Completed Basic Training Medal".


----------



## armyvern

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> If you go to the current petition by the gentleman referenced in the very first post, you'll see that the originator has suggested a term of service of "365 days of uninterrupted honourable duty".
> 
> One year.
> 
> So, how many people who VR'd from PAT Platoon before they completed their "3's" would be eligible? Why not just make it the "Completed Basic Training Medal".



X = 1;

Scratch my last (or at least change my "X" = 3 or 4 to *1*) ... CD after 1 year of service. Problem solved, money saved - medal still awarded.


----------



## Infanteer

But if we did that, then guys wouldn't have two medals to wear!

As for the CPSM, I don't get wound up about it as something like the Golden Jubilee - at least I had to do _something_ to wear it; it's like those WWII Victory Medals, I guess.


----------



## armyvern

Infanteer said:
			
		

> But if we did that, then guys wouldn't have two medals to wear!
> 
> As for the CPSM, I don't get wound up about it as something like the Golden Jubilee - at least I had to do _something_ to wear it; it's like those WWII Victory Medals, I guess.



No, we wouldn't have two medals (but then, this proposal is about "recognizing volunteer service") which my proposal would do!! But, for those not satisfied with that ... I further propose that they'll _still_ get recognized at 12 years of volunteer, honourable service just like they do now  --- so they've lost _nothing_.

We'll just award the 1st bar at 12 years of service, 2nd at 22 ...

Lots of bars in the system ... and rosettes too for the ribbons. 

I mean heck --- if the point is to recognize someone for voluntary and honourable service (just at an earlier date than it is now) ... it seems to me that bumping up the CD to the 1 year mark and awarding the 1st bar at 12 ... would just about cover it.


----------



## vonGarvin

Hey, leave my jubilee medal alone!  ;D


----------



## Haggis

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> If you go to the current petition by the gentleman referenced in the very first post, you'll see that the originator has suggested a term of service of "*365 days of uninterrupted honourable duty*".



So, despite that the petitioner wants this medal to be available to both Regular Force and Reserve, the criteria excludes the vast majority of Class A Reservists who have not yet done a tour or a long term Class B.  Even if the term of service were to be, say, "365 days of cumulative honourable duty"  The average Reservist, parading at the funded ceiling of 33.5 days per annum, would take 11 years to accumulate enough qualifying service (Assuming, of course, that "qualifying service" wasn't calculated by the same methodolgy used to do IPC calculations for Class C service).

Sounds completely fair and well thought out to me!


----------



## Lex Parsimoniae

Haggis said:
			
		

> So, despite that the petitioner wants this medal to be available to both Regular Force and Reserve, the criteria excludes the vast majority of Class A Reservists who have not yet done a tour or a long term Class B.  Even if the term of service were to be, say, "365 days of cumulative honourable duty"  The average Reservist, parading at the funded ceiling of 33.5 days per annum, would take 11 years to accumulate enough qualifying service (Assuming, of course, that "qualifying service" wasn't calculated by the same methodolgy used to do IPC calculations for Class C service).
> 
> Sounds completely fair and well thought out to me!


Accepting that this whole idea is farcical and will most likely not result in a new medal...nothing in the proposal says anything about paid service.  Just like how the CD is awarded after 12 years, regardless of how many days were paid in that period.  "Canadian Forces Decoration is awarded to officers, and to the men and women of the Canadian Forces who have completed twelve years of service"


----------



## Haggis

"The Canadian Forces' Decoration is awarded to officers and Non-Commissioned Members of the Canadian Forces who have completed twelve years of service. The decoration is awarded to all ranks, who have a good record of conduct. 

ELIGIBILITY & CRITERIA

The decoration is awarded to the regular forces, reserve forces, officers of the Cadet Instructors Cadre (CIC), Canadian Rangers and holders of honorary appointments in the CF. Service in the regular and reserve or auxiliary forces of the British Commonwealth of Nations will be counted towards the medal if the final five years have been served with the Canadian Forces and no other long service, good conduct or efficiency medal has been awarded for the same service. The medal may be awarded to persons in possession of any long service, good conduct or efficiency decoration or medal clasps, provided that the individual has completed the full qualifying periods of service for each award and that no service qualifying towards one award is permitted to count towards any other. *The service need not be continuous.* This award supersedes all other long service awards for members joining the Canadian Forces after 01 September 1939."


----------



## Journeyman

Infanteer said:
			
		

> But if we did that, then guys wouldn't have two medals to wear!


I actually have a set of ribbons, for wear on the short-sleeve DEU shirt, that just has the tour medals on it since they're the ones I value. It does cause discussion.

Sadly, Vern's solution to this non-required medal seems the most rational, if only because it sucks the least money out of the budget -- an aspect that some of us have to care about. It will only have to be issued to those not already having a CD, rather than striking a new medal to be _awarded_ to pretty much everyone who's ever completed a recruit course.....or at least stuck around a PAT Platoon until qualifying.


----------



## Haggis

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I actually have a set of ribbons, for wear on the short-sleeve DEU shirt, that just has the tour medals on it since they're the ones I value. It does cause discussion.


  And is quite improper.  Note the line in the previous post that details that the CD "*shall* be worn....".  Non discretionary, JM.  You've been awarded those orders, decorations and medals with the expectation that you shall wear them properly and completely.

*So there!!!* ;D

I know a well experienced Army major who steadfastly refuses to wear ANY of his medals/ribbons.  His CO pondered nominating him for an MSD but figured "why bother - he'll never wear it".

I also know a Reg F Infantry WO (at the time) who refused to wear his para wings.  Seems he never wanted to be a jumper but the unit sent him to CABC anyways.  He passed (just because that's the type of guy he is) but never put his wings up.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Maybe the problem is that we have blended 'long service' with 'good conduct' in the awards system. If we copied the RCMP protocal, we could get even more stuff to wear on our uniforms  ;D:

"The Royal Canadian Mounted Police uses stars, with 5 years of service in the RCMP per star. Stars are only worn on our Red Serge tunic or blue serge jacket (some ranks are allowed a blue serge tunic as well) centred roughly 3 - 4 inches below the shoulder on the left sleeve. After 20 years, or 4 stars, we start a second row above that, to a maximum of 40 years or 8 stars.

In addition to the stars, and if we qualify due to good behaviour, we are awarded a Long Service medal at 20 years of service in the RCMP, and are allowed to wear the undress ribbon on our uniform shirt. We are further rewarded with a bronze, silver, gold or silver and gold clasp for 25, 30, 35 and 40 years of service. The medal is worn with our serge tunics or jackets only."

http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76854


----------



## Rifleman62

Now that every conceivable criteria is murky, we can be assured that the medal will be struck, and issued following the discussed procedures. A bag full of newly minted Primary Reserve personnel, classified as senior and somewhat very senior officers and one lonely, knowledgeable, experienced, practical CWO will be hired for not less than twenty four months to action the new (fill in the blanks)                                  medal.


----------



## Occam

Haggis said:
			
		

> And is quite improper.  Note the line in the previous post that details that the CD "*shall* be worn....".



Sorry, either I need stronger glasses, or that bolded part isn't there in the post you mentioned.


----------



## Haggis

Occam said:
			
		

> Sorry, either I need stronger glasses, or that bolded part isn't there in the post you mentioned.



That's because I bolded it.  Font notwithstanding, the operative word is "shall" which makes the wearing of a received/presented order, decoration or medal mandatory - not discretionary.


----------



## Occam

Haggis said:
			
		

> That's because I bolded it.  Font notwithstanding, the operative word is "shall" which makes the wearing of a received/presented order, decoration or medal mandatory - not discretionary.



Sorry, if you're talking about the post below, I'm not seeing "shall" anywhere...



			
				Haggis said:
			
		

> "The Canadian Forces' Decoration is awarded to officers and Non-Commissioned Members of the Canadian Forces who have completed twelve years of service. The decoration is awarded to all ranks, who have a good record of conduct.
> 
> ELIGIBILITY & CRITERIA
> 
> The decoration is awarded to the regular forces, reserve forces, officers of the Cadet Instructors Cadre (CIC), Canadian Rangers and holders of honorary appointments in the CF. Service in the regular and reserve or auxiliary forces of the British Commonwealth of Nations will be counted towards the medal if the final five years have been served with the Canadian Forces and no other long service, good conduct or efficiency medal has been awarded for the same service. The medal may be awarded to persons in possession of any long service, good conduct or efficiency decoration or medal clasps, provided that the individual has completed the full qualifying periods of service for each award and that no service qualifying towards one award is permitted to count towards any other. *The service need not be continuous.* This award supersedes all other long service awards for members joining the Canadian Forces after 01 September 1939."


----------



## Haggis

Occam said:
			
		

> Sorry, if you're talking about the post below, I'm not seeing "shall" anywhere...


Damned cut n' paste!  You're right, Occam.  I dropped that paragraph.  Read the paragraph under "Wearing" at this site.


----------



## Occam

Haggis said:
			
		

> Damned cut n' paste!  You're right, Occam.  I dropped that paragraph.  Read the paragraph under "Wearing" at this site.



Thanks, I was really thinking my eyes were going on me.

I'm not entirely sure that the statement "The Decoration shall be worn in sequence prescribed in the Canadian Orders, Decorations and Medals Directive, and in the following manner" should be interpreted to mean that the medal shall be worn at all appropriate times, only that the medal shall be worn in sequence prescribed in the Canadian Orders, Decorations and Medals Directive - which doesn't say anything about the mandatory wearing of any awarded medals.

This is also reflected in the wording of CFP-265, Chapter 4, which says:

_POLICY 
1. Authorized honours (orders, decorations,
medals, and the insignia for mentions-indispatches,
commendations and citations) *may* be
worn, when appropriate, by entitled personnel.
Where doubt exists on entitlement, the Command
concerned shall refer the matter to NDHQ/DHH for
clarification. No officer or non-commissioned
member shall carry or wear an order, decoration or
medal while engaged in operations against the
enemy.

2. Orders, decorations and medals *may* be
worn with ceremonial and mess dress orders. See
Chapter 2, Annex A, and Chapter 6. Guidance on
selecting honours for wear should follow the
principles in sub-sub-paragraphs 7.a.(1) and (2)
and sub-paragraph 8.a._

I've yet to see any regulation, policy or directive that makes it mandatory to wear decorations which one has been awarded.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Occam said:
			
		

> I've yet to see any regulation, policy or directive that makes it mandatory to wear decorations which one has been awarded.



You've never been on a parade where the dress has been specified as 1A's or the boss has stated "DEU with medals"?

Both are a directive to wear your medals.


----------



## Occam

recceguy said:
			
		

> You've never been on a parade where the dress has been specified as 1A's or the boss has stated "DEU with medals"?
> 
> Both are a directive to wear your medals.



Yes, I've been on more than my fair share of them, to be honest.  Those directives are to prevent people from showing up in #3 order of dress (with undress ribbons).

I've never had anyone comparing my gongs worn on parade against my MPRR, and on a couple of occasions I've gone gongless because they've been away getting remounted.  Not once has anyone ever questioned the absence of my decorations, and much to my disappointment, no one has anyone ever said "Hold it there fella, we can't let you go on parade, you'll be out of dress".   ;D

edit:  Figure 6A-2 of CFP 265 mentions that under the 1A order of dress, "Orders, decorations, and medals *may* be worn".


----------



## Fishbone Jones

No matter the meaning or interpretation, as perceived by some, it's still a directive to wear them. Whether or not you've ever been checked is immaterial. If you have them and show up without them, you are out of dress (same reason they specify it, by your argument). There are certain things expected of a serviceperson, that go without saying. Honesty and integrity are a couple of them.


----------



## Occam

recceguy said:
			
		

> No matter the meaning or interpretation, as perceived by some, it's still a directive to wear them. Whether or not you've ever been checked is immaterial. If you have them and show up without them, you are out of dress (same reason they specify it, by your argument). There are certain things expected of a serviceperson, that go without saying. Honesty and integrity are a couple of them.



That's not what I said.  I said that despite my showing up for parade lacking the medals awarded to me, I have never been told that I couldn't go on parade because I would've been out of dress.

Personally, I wear my medals on all occasions which call for them.  Nevertheless, I still don't think there is anything in the regs which makes it mandatory to wear decorations which have been awarded.  Honesty and integrity have nothing to do with the issue of refusing to wear a particular medal or medals, and that's a bit of a red herring.  If it were an issue, I'm sure I would've been jacked up for being out of dress when my gongs were away getting remounted - but there was nary a query about their whereabouts.


----------



## McG

Occam said:
			
		

> edit:  Figure 6A-2 of CFP 265 mentions that under the 1A order of dress, "Orders, decorations, and medals *may* be worn".



Of course, para 6 of chapter 4 states that:


> The insignia of
> Canadian, Commonwealth and foreign
> orders, decorations and medals shall be
> worn in order of precedence without
> interval, with the senior closest to the
> centre of the chest. See Chapter 2 to A-AD-
> 200-000/AG-000, The Honours, Flags and
> Heritage Structure of the CF.


If one is omitting awarded medals, then they are not wearing them in the order of precedence.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

I'm sure even a crusty old SSM would not be expected to know every person who had medals, or what they were. I'm also sure any 'reasonable' excuse would be accepted for not wearing them (being remounted). However, if I heard "Tommorrow's parade is in DEU with medals" I would consider it a direct order. My honesty, to myself, would say "Yes, I have them". My integrity would say "Wear them as directed". That's where I'm coming from on that.

I understand why it would be wasteful for some to wear the decorations awarded to them. They would only be covered up by the barrack room lawyer shingle that’s hanging around their neck anyway.

Not saying this about you, just saying.

Anyway, I'm not going to debate the legal meaning of 'should, will and shall'. I deal enough with that one at work.


----------



## Occam

MCG said:
			
		

> Of course, para 6 of chapter 4 states that:If one is omitting awarded medals, then they are not wearing them in the order of precedence.



Sure they are.  The ones worn are still in the correct order of precedence.



			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> I'm sure even a crusty old SSM would not be expected to know every person who had medals, or what they were. I'm also sure any 'reasonable' excuse would be accepted for not wearing them (being remounted). However, if I heard "Tommorrow's parade is in DEU with medals" I would consider it a direct order. My honesty, to myself, would say "Yes, I have them". My integrity would say "Wear them as directed". That's where I'm coming from on that.



Again, if it were an issue, I'm sure a crusty old SSM would be expected to inquire about a complete absence of medals on a member with over 20 years of service.



> I understand why it would be wasteful for some to wear the decorations awarded to them. They would only be covered up by the barrack room lawyer shingle that’s hanging around their neck anyway.
> 
> Not saying this about you, just saying.



Others have previously indicated that they have refused (or intended to refuse) the wear of decorations (here and here, for example) and they weren't pressed on the matter.  I think it's possible that some are focusing more on the messenger than the message.

Not saying this about you, just saying.    

As I said before, I wear my decorations - all of them.  Others may not be inclined to do so for various reasons.  The regs are something less than clear on the issue.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Occam said:
			
		

> I think it's possible that some are focusing more on the messenger than the message.



Then you think wrong. You made it quite clear that you wear yours, ergo I couldn't be speaking of you. Perhaps it's not us who is not reading clearly?  ;D

Anyway, cheers 

Outta here.


----------



## c4th

Haggis said:
			
		

> Simple:
> 
> - One medal, with a bar awarded for each GG you have served under.



I found a photo of the Good Idea Train


----------



## Haggis

Trust No One said:
			
		

> I found a photo of the Good Idea Train



...and I think this thread was somewhere in the second boxcar from the bottom.


----------



## Edward Campbell

If we are going to award this _gong_ IAW Haggis' excellent idea - a bar for each GG who served while the member served - then it can be awarded only at release/retirement, right? Thus serving members will never wear it and retired members can add it to their _rack_ or not, as they see fit. Seems like a perfectly sensible idea, aside from the fact that it's a total waste of time, effort and money. I'm surprised it isn't policy already. </sarcasm>


----------



## Old Sweat

And besides, Edward, you and I will be hanging a ladder on our chests. Let's see, starting with Massey, Vanier and Michener, and then going downhill with political hacks and superannuated cabinet ministers.


----------



## Haggis

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> If we are going to award this _gong_ IAW Haggis' excellent idea - a bar for each GG who served while the member served - then it can be awarded only at release/retirement, right? Thus serving members will never wear it and retired members can add it to their _rack_ or not, as they see fit. Seems like a perfectly sensible idea, aside from the fact that it's a total waste of time, effort and money. I'm surprised it isn't policy already. </sarcasm>



No, with the appointment of each new GG, all bases, stations and garrisons will have a, um... "bar" parade to present new bars before the troops head off to the bars to celebrate having received another bar.



			
				Old Sweat said:
			
		

> And besides, Edward, you and I will be hanging a ladder on our chests. Let's see, starting with Massey, Vanier and Michener, and then going downhill with political hacks and superannuated cabinet ministers.



Clearly, we'll need a much longer ribbon than normal.  Perhaps the medal can be worn around the neck?


----------



## Edward Campbell

Haggis said:
			
		

> ...
> Clearly, we'll need a much longer ribbon than normal.  Perhaps the medal can be worn around the neck?




Oh neat, kinda like a second third fourth _whatever_ rate Companion of the Order of Something or Other; I haven't got one of those.

Maybe the "Order of Hanging About While Everyone Else Deployed.' (OHAWEED) Bingo! I think we've done it!


----------



## Rifleman62

> No, with the appointment of each new GG, all bases, stations and garrisons will have a, um... "bar" parade to present new bars before the troops head off to the bars to celebrate having received another bar.



Maybe that should be troops head to the shack to take off the old bar, replace with a new bar, then head to the bar to celebrate having received another bar. 



> Clearly, we'll need a much longer ribbon than normal.  Perhaps the medal can be worn around the neck?



Not required if the bars are replaced. This procedure will insure the soldiers know who is the GG.


----------



## Michael OLeary

And the rosette for select GGs will look like this:








 ;D


----------



## CountDC

oh god   :brickwall:  must need   realllllly bad or  :clubinhand: to the head.  This is starting to make sense.


----------



## Edward Campbell

CountDC said:
			
		

> oh god   :brickwall:  must need   realllllly bad or  :clubinhand: to the head.  This is starting to make sense.



Of course it does! It's really a good idea after all ... well not so good for Old Sweat who will suffer a herniated disk from the strain created by carrying the weight of all those GG bars on his _gong_.

Bring on the _bling_! _Bling_ for everyone!


----------



## CountDC

Can we include Cadets?  That way my son can get some bling too!!

Got to think of the family.


----------



## PMedMoe

CountDC said:
			
		

> Can we include Cadets?  That way my son can get some bling too!!
> 
> Got to think of the family.


I think all immediate family (parents, children, spouses, siblings) should receive a "Support the Troops" medal as they have supported us throughout our careers.

Bling all around!!   :nod:


----------



## Edward Campbell

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I think all immediate family (parents, children, spouses, siblings) should receive a "Support the Troops" medal as they have supported us throughout our careers.
> 
> Bling all around!!   :nod:




And don't forget the lovely barmaids in my _local_, who support the veterans!

_Bling_ for them, too, in recognition of their special contribution to the _defence of the realm_ in times of crisis - like during playoff hockey games when the place is full and they always remember to make sure my glass is always full.  iper:


----------



## Edward Campbell

Have we, finally, got this _yet another new medal_ thingy settled?  :nod:


----------



## Journeyman

CountDC said:
			
		

> Can we include Cadets?  That way my son can get some bling too!!


See? That's what I'm talking about -- that whole generations' sense of entitlement. 
He wants meaningless bling, tell him to start his own facebook petition  


 ;D


....who knows, maybe some non-Canadian government will use _their_ budget to create one for him


----------



## CountDC

Journeyman said:
			
		

> See? That's what I'm talking about -- that whole generations' sense of entitlement.
> He wants meaningless bling, tell him to start his own facebook petition
> 
> 
> ;D
> 
> 
> ....who knows, maybe some non-Canadian government will use _their_ budget to create one for him



Now Now - I didn't say he wanted it, I did specify I was thinking of the family.  Actually it would be one more thing for me to torture him about, along with ironing his uniform, polishing his boots and wearing a wallet on his head.  ;D


----------



## medicineman

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Have we, finally, got this _yet another new medal_ thingy settled?  :nod:



Apparently not.

MM


----------



## Journeyman

medicineman said:
			
		

> Apparently not.


Hey, it's only been going since _April 23, 2007, 15:45:32._ 
Although I don't know why it wasn't moved down to Radio Chatter back then, you still have to allow the "voters to decide" -- I guess they just need a _wee bit_ more time.  ;D


----------



## PMedMoe

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> And don't forget the lovely barmaids in my _local_, who support the veterans!
> 
> _Bling_ for them, too, in recognition of their special contribution to the _defence of the realm_ in times of crisis - like during playoff hockey games when the place is full and they always remember to make sure my glass is always full.  iper:


Mr. Campbell, I suggest you adopt them and that way they are family.


----------



## Edward Campbell

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Mr. Campbell, I suggest you adopt them and that way they are family.



Splendid idea! One can't have too much _family_, right?


----------



## medicineman

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Hey, it's only been going since _April 23, 2007, 15:45:32._
> Although I don't know why it wasn't moved down to Radio Chatter back then, you still have to allow the "voters to decide" -- I guess they just need a _wee bit_ more time.  ;D



My original answer was simply "NO", however I thought that it sounded a tad too sarcastic  .  My suggestion is leave it on Facebook where it belongs so everyone else and their uncles/aunts can play too.

MM


----------



## observor 69

CountDC said:
			
		

> Now Now - I didn't say he wanted it, I did specify I was thinking of the family.  Actually it would be one more thing for me to torture him about, along with ironing his uniform, polishing his boots and wearing a wallet on his head.  ;D



Air Cadets seem to have lots of  Medals, just borrow some of theirs.  >


----------



## Edward Campbell

There's no doubt in my mind that when we are reduced *elevated* to discussing the barmaids in The Black Bear it is time for a move to Radio Chatter.


----------



## Journeyman

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> There's no doubt in my mind that when we are reduced *elevated* to discussing the barmaids in The Black Bear it is time for a move to Radio Chatter.


...or the Photo Gallery  :nod:


----------



## dapaterson

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> There's no doubt in my mind that when we are reduced *elevated* to discussing the barmaids in The Black Bear it is time for a move to Radio Chatter.



No one, to my knowledge, has argued for limiting this recognition to the ladies of The Black Bear.

Indeed, such recognition should be given to all who Support Our Troops through the service industry.

I, for one, look forward to the 5e GBMC medals parade for their ardent supporters at l'Entre Nous; I'm certain there will be no difficulty in securing a long list of notables returning to participate.


----------



## armyvern

I'll need a couple for teachers who have influenced me throughout my life (Mr Zorzi, Mr Fry and Mr Pond).

And damn ... what about the pets!!?? Do not let this medal discriminate against them for they are the only one who love us unconditionally and are sooooooooooo excited when we return from far-away places by peeing on the floor and your feet and all that _neat _ stuff. Blingy collars all around!!

For the gentlemen of the forum (Edward and Old Sweat) --- may I suggest voyageur sashs be introduced into the dress regs for wear with DEU upon which you can hang your ladders?


----------



## SeanNewman

DISCLAIMER:  Nothing at all to do with this medal, only the post above.

Hey, don't knock the dogs of war!







Everyone focuses on things like horses, homing pigeons, IED-sniffing dogs or mules to carry weight, but it gets far cooler than that.

Did you know that in order to defeat rampaging elephants (think Alexander) the counter-strategy was developed to coat pigs in oil and light them on fire in order to terrify the elphants and break their ranks?

Also, the US spent millions in WW2 putting little timed incindiary backpacks on thousands of bats, with the intent of dropping them over Japan at night so they would find their way into the rafters of wooden Japanese buildings before sunlight, and then "poof" 10,000 fires start at the same time.  The project was so successful that the research factory burned down, but almost surely would have went ahead if not for the atomic bomb.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_animal


----------



## Edward Campbell

OK, _*now*_ is this over? Have we now agreed to award this new _shiney_ to absolutely everyone and everything (except cadets who already have a lot of medals, anyway)?  :nod:


----------



## Haggis

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> OK, _*now*_ is this over? Have we now agreed to award this new _shiney_ to absolutely everyone and everything (except cadets who already have a lot of medals, anyway)?  :nod:



Not quite.

We cannot overlook the notable roles played by the Legion of Frontiersmen in perpetuating, well, something.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Haggis said:
			
		

> Not quite.
> 
> We cannot overlook the notable roles played by the Legion of Frontiersmen in perpetuating, well, something.




Damnit! You're right!

And they have _waaaay_ better medals than the Air Cadets (follow the link in Baden Guy's post from earlier today).


----------



## dapaterson

And one must not forget the Clan of the Gallant Canadians, available now at affordable rates.


----------



## armyvern

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Damnit! You're right!
> 
> And they have _waaaay_ better medals than the Air Cadets (follow the link in Baden Guy's post from earlier today).



Don't forget the Army cadets --- even I have Army cadet bling!!

Let's just gather up everything we can find and toss it on. That it the only way we can possibly compete with the Frontiersmen.

Someone better issue me a new chest soon; 'cause I don't have room for too much more bling!! If I was a guy they would issue me one if I asked!!


----------



## PMedMoe

Okay.  I'm going to attach one of the gold foil-wrapped Twoonies I received for St. Pat's Day and put it on some funky coloured ribbon.  Since I think I might lose my SWASM (can you lose a medal you've been awarded?), I'll have to add another, to fill in the blank.   ;D


----------



## Danjanou

We could always bring back the Volunteer Decoration instead of the GGVSM 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volunteer_Decoration

The ribbon would be cheaper and think of the post nominals.

BTW quick site admin point, should I start a new outrage bus er thread for the Queens Diamond Jubilee Medal (QDJM) due in 2 years or can we just tack it onto this one?   op:


----------



## dapaterson

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> (can you lose a medal you've been awarded?)



Depends on the medal.  Some can be rescinded by publishing ordinances stripping you of it, but that is very rare.

I'm not certain about the "I was there" type medals, though.


----------



## Edward Campbell

:stop:

Oh, gawd! It will never end!

:endnigh:


----------



## Old Sweat

We best discuss it in the Black Bear after Edward and I get back to the Great White North. 

Or we could simply merge it with one of the Legion of Frontiersmen threads.


----------



## daftandbarmy

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I'll need a couple for teachers who have influenced me throughout my life (Mr Zorzi, Mr Fry and Mr Pond).
> 
> And damn ... what about the pets!!?? Do not let this medal discriminate against them for they are the only one who love us unconditionally and are sooooooooooo excited when we return from far-away places by peeing on the floor and your feet and all that _neat _ stuff. Blingy collars all around!!
> 
> For the gentlemen of the forum (Edward and Old Sweat) --- may I suggest voyageur sashs be introduced into the dress regs for wear with DEU upon which you can hang your ladders?



The British have beaten us to it. It's called the Dickin Medal (stop sniggering). It's the doggy VC:

http://www.army.mod.uk/news/19126.aspx


----------



## Edward Campbell

I understand the Brits. I can think of many, many dogs whose company I prefer to that of several quite senior officers, and a fair few NCOs, too. Some of those dogs, especially the border collies, were smarter, too - not just better company.


----------



## Old Sweat

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Some of those dogs, especially the border collies, were smarter, too - not just better company.



Having served as did Edward in 1 BR Corps in the bad, old days when social station and accent dicated if one was an officer or an other rank in the British army, there were a number of (often titled) officers in what was known as the fractionalized cavalry (17/21 Lancers, 4/7 Dragoon Guards, 13/18 Hussars for example) who would not have done well in an intelligence test against a moderately bright canine. NOTE: there were many, many others who were switched on, smart and likeable, but the really dull ones used to stand out.

We also used to call Labrador Retrievers "Dogs, RA."


----------



## PIC

watusi said:
			
		

> In the Nepean Weekender 13 April 2007, a Mr David W Palmer (Royal Canadian Legion, Barhaven Branch (Ottawa)) issued an open letter to the Governor General suggesting a Governor General Volunteer Service Medal (GGVSM) be issued to all present and former serving members to recognize volunteer service by members of Canada's Armed Forces since 1947. The medal wouuld have a bar naming the serving Governor General when the member became qualified. The ribbon would borrow the colours of the GG's flag, including the gold of the Lion set against the red and white of the Canadian Flag with a medallion carrying the GG's lion in rampant pose, ready to stand and serve with honour and pride.
> 
> He noted in particular dangers faced during the Cold War and in particular sailors performing dangerous naval missions without proper recognition, but that it should be made available to all.
> 
> Do you think a GGVSM should be issued to all former and serving members of the Armed Forces since 1947??


  There is a petition that can be seen at the following link: <a href="http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/volunteer-service-medal-for-our-veterans.html">Online petition - Petition for a Volunteer Service Medal for our Veterans (GGVSM)</a>
and further it is supported by the following:signatory No. 4977. Quote: "In 1983 he was promoted to Colonel and was appointed Deputy Commander – Special Service Force at CFB Petawawa. He subsequently assumed command of the Canadian Airborne Regiment, serving from 1985 to 1987" Unquote. Taken from the following Biography. 

Major-General Robert (Bob) Gaudreau, CMM, CD (ret'd) 

Colonel Commandant, Royal Canadian Army Cadets – 2004-07 


The new Colonel Commandant of the RCAC, MGen Robert (Bob) Gaudreau, CMM, CD was born in Cowansville, QC and currently resides close to his birthplace in Glen Sutton, Québec. He started his career as a Signalman in the Royal Canadian Corps of Signals in 1961 and was commissioned shortly thereafter in the 2nd Battalion, Royal 22e Régiment (R22eR). After several years with the R22eR, including service with the United Nations he was promoted to Major in 1974 and Commanding Officer of 1 Commando – Canadian Airborne Regiment. Promoted to Lieutenant Colonel in 1979, he was posted to Mobile Command (FMC) Headquarters and later commanded the 1st Battalion R22eR in Germany 1981-83. In 1983 he was promoted to Colonel and was appointed Deputy Commander – Special Service Force at CFB Petawawa. He subsequently assumed command of the Canadian Airborne Regiment, serving from 1985 to 1987, including a fourth tour of United Nations duty in Cyprus. Promotions to Brigadier-General in 1987 and to Major General in 1989 led to his appointment as the Commander, 1st Canadian Division. In 1992 the UN Secretary General appointed him Deputy Commander of the UN Protection Force 
(UNPROFOR) in the former Yugoslavia. For his outstanding service in that theatre he was awarded Commander of the Order of Military Merit (CMM). MGen Gaudreau retired from the Canadian Forces in 1995 as the Deputy Commander, Land Force Command in St-Hubert, QC. He remains an active member of the R22eR Association, The Canadian Airborne Forces Association, the Airborne Regiment Association of Canada and sits on the Regimental Advisory Committee of the Royal Montreal Regiment. MGen Gaudreau took up his duties as Colonel Commandant of the Royal Canadian Army Cadets on September 1 st, 2004.

I support this initiative


----------



## George Wallace

PIC said:
			
		

> Promotions to Brigadier-General in 1987 and to Major General in 1989 led to his appointment as the Commander, 1st Canadian Division.




Not to be picky or anything, but those dates are wrong.  Major General Jack Dangerfield was Commander of 1 Can Div from 1989 to 1991.


----------



## Old Sweat

I think Bob Gaudreau was Commander 4 CMBG at the time of the Gulf War.


----------



## George Wallace

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> I think Bob Gaudreau was Commander 4 CMBG at the time of the Gulf War.



Bob Meating was at Div Fwd at that time, if I remember correctly.


----------



## Journeyman

PIC said:
			
		

> In the Nepean Weekender 13 April *2007*, a Mr David W Palmer.....


Just when you think a thread has finally died a peaceful death......


----------



## 1feral1

The old poll suggests that overall 41.8% a for such an award, and 58.1% do not approve. The time period which some have suggested of 365 days service IMHO, is just not on.

The ADM we have here, a similar award, has been recieved well, and works and had originally a 6 yr period, and that was changed to a 4 yr period.

I guess the cultures of our Defence Forces are widening in some ways.

Welcome to the site BTW.

OWDU.


----------



## SeanNewman

I've gone through these pages and read the opinions, but one thing I haven't really seen from the "yes" crowd is the answer to the "why" part in terms of if you give it to everyone, is it really special and why would you give it out then?

As OWDU just pointed out, even a time-based one (4-6 years) isn't really any different than a mini-CD, but if it's one year since pretty much everyone serves over one year (Reservists who quit right away or Reg Force trg failures recommended for release being the only exceptions) 99.9% of people would get it.  

I am all for awarding things when deserved in order to show recognition, but if everyone in the CF gets it, it's not really in the spirit of awarding something and it wouldn't mean any more than a pair of socks since everyone was issued one.

Even the"freebies" as the Jubilee ones are often called may not be standardized across the CF, at least at some level someone thought the receiver of it was doing a good job at something.


----------



## Towards_the_gap

Forgive my ignorance, but what does a ret'd general signing an online petition prove?

The key bit being 'ONLINE'.


----------



## George Wallace

Petamocto said:
			
		

> As OWDU just pointed out, even a time-based one (4-6 years) isn't really any different than a mini-CD, but if it's one year since pretty much everyone serves over one year (Reservists who quit right away or Reg Force trg failures recommended for release being the only exceptions) 99.9% of people would get it.



The amount of time to enroll, then turn around an immediately Release a person, both Reg and Res, can take over a year.  In the meantime, someone who has 'suddenly' realized that the CF is not their cup of tea, has all of a sudden found that they are eligible for a military award.  Sounds absolutely bizarre to me that some think that they are so deserving.  If the military is not for them, then surely the military award should not be as well.


----------



## SeanNewman

George,

Exactly, a "1 year award" is disastrous for those reasons since it is almost impossible not to serve 1 year regardless of performance.  But then if you make it any other time frame it's just like a mini CD anyway. 

I don't know what other paths you could take though if the GG insisted on something new.  A 2002-2011 Response to 9/11 medal?  A 2006-2011 Combat Action Badge Medal?   The volunteer one is a non-starter since last time I checked we haven't had conscription for a while.


----------



## PIC

Take into consideration those soldiers injured or who have died in training. Paving the way for new and/or improved equipment, changes made to SOPs/orders and regulations, and the such. Are they simply forgotten? And those who provide ongoing logistical support, air, sea, and land, to the troops in the field engaged in battle or peacekeeping operations. Are they also forgotten? And what of those soldiers suffering from the unabridged use of various chemical substances used throughout Canada. They too?
Furthermore, 
"Moral courage is the most valuable and usually the most absent characteristic in men".
To finish up here, I'd like to add that I see an awful lot of whining and complaining on the sites about the recent Bill C201 which was not voted in. Ammunition comes in many various forms, and if used correctly will obtain a desired result.
And this petition, whereas supported by high brass, is such, and staring in your face. So I urge you to reconsider your position. Thank you.


----------



## George Wallace

PIC said:
			
		

> Take into consideration those soldiers injured or who have died in training. Paving the way for new and/or improved equipment, changes made to SOPs/orders and regulations, and the such. Are they simply forgotten? And those who provide ongoing logistical support, air, sea, and land, to the troops in the field engaged in battle or peacekeeping operations. Are they also forgotten? And what of those soldiers suffering from the unabridged use of various chemical substances used throughout Canada. They too?
> Furthermore,
> "Moral courage is the most valuable and usually the most absent characteristic in men".
> To finish up here, I'd like to add that I see an awful lot of whining and complaining on the sites about the recent Bill C201 which was not voted in. Ammunition comes in many various forms, and if used correctly will obtain a desired result.
> And this petition, whereas supported by high brass, is such, and staring in your face. So I urge you to reconsider your position. Thank you.



I have absolutely no idea what the first half of your post is all about.  I hope your aren't at Happy Hour trying to post a sensible reasoned thought, because it didn't come across as that.

As for "high brass" supporting this; who fricking cares?  It is a petition by people whom many of us consider undeserving of a military award for not having the "Balls" to commit to a term of service that would have given them such an award anyway.   

If you really want, I'll go down to the Ganong Chocolate Factory in St Andrews, NB, and have them mint you some medals wrapped in gold foil that if you are hungry, you can gnaw on.    :


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

George Wallace said:
			
		

> If you really want, I'll go down to the Ganong Chocolate Factory in St Andrews, NB, and have them mint you some medals wrapped in gold foil that if you are hungry, you can gnaw on.    :



Well if they are going to be made of chocolate then maybe I might change my mind....... :king:


----------



## SeanNewman

PIC,

I'll be a tad more forgiving than George but I agree I'm not really sure where you're coming from.

Are you referring to the post above if a hypothetical 1 year of voluntary service?  

I'm not sure what you mean by forgotten, either, as anyone injured is still going to be in the CF longer than a year if they're at all fixable.  The cases where someone may be so seriously injured in their first year as to require an immediate release would make up such a small percentage that it would be borderline statistically irrelevant.  And people who die while in CF service regardless of the cause are now posthumously awarded a Sacrifice Medal.

As for the logistical support trades, all medals are created equal in terms of criteria.  It doesn't matter if you're an infantryman or an air force clerk; if you're serving in the same theatre you'll generally get the same medal.

You lost me completely with the "various chemical substances".  Did you read an article about Agent Orange today?

The more I read, the more I agree with George, actually.  Your post is right-out-of-er, which from me is saying a lot.


----------



## Towards_the_gap

PIC said:
			
		

> And this petition, whereas supported by high brass, is such, and staring in your face. So I urge you to reconsider your position. Thank you.



Errm, some dude with a big pension counts as 'high brass'? Ok, I'll humour you. Position reconsidering happening............position NO CHANGE. It's a crap medal. Please stop trying to make yourselves feel better on rememberance day.

The internet is not the place to infer rank pulling, or to try and cow people by name dropping dudes I've never heard of.

To echo George Wallace, but in plainer vernacular - BORE OFF.


----------



## George Wallace

We have an all volunteer military.  We award people who have shown the dedication and commitment to the CF with an award, the CD, after twelve, twenty-two, thirty-two and fourty-two years of service.  We now have the Sacrifice Medal.  We also have the silver Memorial Cross for widows, mothers and any other family member that the member so elects.  The last two have come into existence in the last decade.  How many more awards do we need to create?  

This is beginning to make the current system of Honours and Awards look like it is becoming a "Welfare handout" to any and all who want just that--a free handout.


----------



## SeanNewman

George Wallace said:
			
		

> How many more awards do we need to create?



I believe we were promised a chocolate one...


----------



## PIC

And don't forget about all those men and women devoured by the forces reduction program.
Of which, some of you may have gotten the axe.
They served and would have continued.
So , suck back and reload!!!!
What harm could it do, to sign a petition which is probably not recognized anyway.
As for the total mumble jumble of the thread.......it is caused by those who have nothing good to say about squat. Unless of course it pertains to their own fattened belly.
Have a nice weekend, just the same.


----------



## SeanNewman

PIC,

I see by your profile info that you have some respectable service, so I am more than willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Can you please maybe just clarify specifically what it is that is bothering you?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

To all, just let this go. It's fairly obvious "pic" just wants a reaction so do the worst thing possible,.....nothing.
Thanks,
Bruce


----------



## Towards_the_gap

But, I'm so curious to see the size of the chip on his shoulder!!!!


----------



## PIC

I thought it was a good idea to post this info, seeing the huge number of members stretching accross this great land we all call home.
I am sure there are some of which who feel differently with respect to this subject.
Thank you


----------



## PIC

For the ability of all members to more easily access the info pertaining to this petition I have entered it as a naw postetition for a Volunteer Service Medal for our Veterans (GGVSM) 5061 Signatures   

Published by Dave Palmer on Aug 07, 2009
Category: Heritage and RemembranceRegion: CanadaTarget: Any and all Canadian Citizens that can sign their nameWeb site: http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/volunteer-serv...
Background (Preamble):
Since 2 March 1947, our Veterans have not been issued a Volunteer Service Medal as was the Canadian tradition to do so up until 1 March 1947. 

The proposed Governor General's Volunteer Service Medal (GGVSM) is to recognize the conviction of our Veterans to have volunteered to serve our Nation. Many Veterans who have voluntarily served in our country's forces and for reasons did not serve for an extended period (more than 12 years) and they left the services. These Veterans never received a single "Canadian" medal or any recognition for their service. 

The GGVSM would re-introduce a proud aspect of Canadian Heritage and remembrance of our Veterans. The GGVSM would also be highly supportive of Veterans Affairs "Canada Remembers program". Let us remember all of our Veterans and give them at least one medal to wear to give them the dignity and honour they deserve for volunteering to serve and the GGVSM would be a truly outstanding Canadian Medal to do this.



Petition:
To The Government of Canada 

Whereas: 

1. During a specified period of Service to their Country, Canadians, from 3 September 1939, to 1 March 1947, received the Canadian Volunteer Service Medal, and 

2. During a specified period of Service to their Country, Canadians, from 27 June 1950, to 27 July 1953, received the Canadian Volunteer Service Medal for Korea;

We, the undersigned residents of Canada, respectfully call upon the Government of Canada, to recognize by means of the issuance of a new Canadian Volunteer Service Medal, to be designated “The Governor General’s Volunteer Service Medal”, for volunteer service by Canadians in the Regular and Reserve Military Forces and Cadet Corps Support Staff who were not eligible for the aforementioned medals and who have completed 365 days of uninterrupted honourable duty in the service of their country Canada, since 2 March 1947.

------------------------------------------------------

Au gouvernement du Canada

1. Ayant servi volontairement leur pays, de n’importe quel grade de la Marine, de l’Armée ou des Forces aériennes, du 3 septembre 1939 au 1e mars 1947, des Canadiens ont reçu la MÉDAILLE CANADIENNE DU VOLONTAIRE.

2. Ayant servi volontairement leur pays, de n’importe quel grade de la Marine, de l’Armée ou des Forces aériennes pour une période de temps déterminée, du 27 juin 1950 au 27 juillet 1953, des Canadiens ont reçu la MÉDAILLE DU VOLONTAIRE POUR SERVICE EN CORÉE.

Nous, résidents soussignés du Canada, demandons respectueusement au Gouvernement du Canada, de reconnaître le service volontaire des Canadiens qui ont servi dans l’armée régulière, l’armée des réservistes ou le personnel de soutien des corps cadets en émettant une nouvelle médaille canadienne du volontaire appelée MÉDAILLE de la GOUVERNEURE GÉNÉRALE POUR SERVICE VOLONTAIRE. 

Les récipiendaires seraient ceux qui ont complété honorablement 365 jours ininterrompus de service pour le Canada depuis le 2 mars 1947 et qui ne sont pas admissibles à recevoir la MÉDAILLE CANADIENNE DU VOLONTAIRE.
___________________________________________________________________________
Canwest News Service Published: Monday, March 29, 2010 (below). 

We have created a legacy of forgotten Veterans and we are losing a tremendous amount of our History, our Heritage and the Legacy of thousands of undecorated Veterans that "voluntarily" served our nation with courage and conviction during the last century and we can't dignify them with the long overdue recognition that is befitting of these our forgotten Veterans. This is not the Canada I know! 

Thousands of Canadians, many of them, the undecorated Veterans of yesteryear are continuously showing their support for a proposed volunteer service medal, the "Governor General's Volunteer Service Medal" (GGVSM) and it is a shame as our undecorated Veterans are just being shoved-off into an abyss of forgetfulness and this will be one of the most embarrassing and shameful portions of Canadian History, the" Era of the Forgotten Veterans". Is this to be our Legacy, how we just forgot the service of so many young Canadians that volunteered to serve their nation? 

Can we not do something for these Veterans, something to give them so that their ancestors will have known that their ancestors of yesteryear, yester-decade and yester-century served with honour in our nation's military forces?


----------



## vonGarvin

I abstain


----------



## Franko

Moved it here, seeing as it was originally started in 07 and more than likely turfed shortly thereafter.
*
The Army.ca Staff*


----------



## SeanNewman

Pic,

Now at least I understand where you were coming from.  Your post above explains your intent, where as the one on the other threads were a bit all over the place.

What you are going for is recognition for the types of people who still contribute to the service of Canada, but not for 12 years and not overseas. 

I think that's all you needed to say on the other thread, and it certainly helps me at least understand your position more.


----------



## dan7108

I petition to take all the money that would be used to create this BS medal and put it towards VAC programmes that help actual veterans who have served overseas.


----------



## the 48th regulator

dan7108 said:
			
		

> I petition to take all the money that would be used to create this BS medal and put it towards VAC programmes that help actual veterans who have served overseas.



There are Veteran's that have done their duty, and have been injured, without serving overseas....

dileas

tess


----------



## PIC

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Pic,
> 
> Now at least I understand where you were coming from.  Your post above explains your intent, where as the one on the other threads were a bit all over the place.
> 
> What you are going for is recognition for the types of people who still contribute to the service of Canada, but not for 12 years and not overseas.
> 
> I think that's all you needed to say on the other thread, and it certainly helps me at least understand your position more.




Thanks for that.......It had to be for the benefit of all to see, and should have been the first posting to avoid mass confusion.


----------



## SeanNewman

dan7108 said:
			
		

> I petition to take all the money that would be used to create this BS medal and put it towards VAC programmes that help actual veterans who have served overseas.



I see merit in that, but I also see Pic's point in a way (as much as I don't want the medal myself).

There are all sorts of people who serve six years (2 x 3-year contracts) and contribute to the big green machine in some way but only retire with a set of Corporal epaulets to show for it.  

I know the counter-argument is "If you don't go on operation then you haven't served Canada", but that's a pretty big brush to paint that group of people with.  What if he was an awesome role player in Wainwright and helped troops who deployed learn valuable lessons?  What if he worked around the clock to build outstanding ranges that deploying troops improved their skills on?

I think there is unquestionably an overlap of some people who contribute more to the CF than a small percentage of people who deploy but don't add that much to the mission.

I think where Pic is coming from is what does that guy have to show at the end of his life to his grandkids?

I'm not saying whether or not it's medal-worthy, but I do agree that some people contribute to the CF and have nothing to show for it.


----------



## Greymatters

I think that this type of thinking is a result of the deluge of medals one sees on chests nowadays. 

In the 1980's, any soldier with more than one medal was 'experienced'.  Usually the only medals a soldier had was the Cyprus and/or the 12 years medal.

In the 1990's, it was normal to see three, and six was unusual.

Nowadays, it seems six medals or more is the par, and those with nothing feel like their service isnt recognized unless they have at least one medal. 

Im sorry, but a small ego problem doesnt justify this kind of medal.  Medals are supposed to recognize exceptional loyalty and dedication, and to me one year of service is not an exceptional example of loyalty or dedication.  We have Release PERs for that level of dedication.

I could be convinced of making an exception for persons who were forced to retire or be released due to injuries, but only on a case by case basis...  


_Edited for text errors...   _


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

PIC said:
			
		

> give them at least one medal to wear to give them the dignity and honour they deserve for volunteering to serve



..and all these years I thought I had my dignity and honour,........now I'm just shattered. :bla-bla:


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Now this one, Induct Dan Fogelberg Into The Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame might have legs.

Sorry, its late, and I have 6 hours left in my shift...... :-[


----------



## armyvern

Ahhhh, I see that this thread has once again come full-circle with "it's just like a CD" ... post from a few weeks ago ...



			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> No, we wouldn't have two medals (but then, this proposal is about "recognizing volunteer service") which my proposal would do!! But, for those not satisfied with that ... I further propose that they'll _still_ get recognized at 12 years of volunteer, honourable service just like they do now  --- so they've lost _nothing_.
> 
> We'll just award the 1st bar at 12 years of service, 2nd at 22 ...
> 
> Lots of bars in the system ... and rosettes too for the ribbons.
> 
> I mean heck --- if the point is to recognize someone for voluntary and honourable service (just at an earlier date than it is now) ... it seems to me that bumping up the CD to the 1 year mark and awarding the 1st bar at 12 ... would just about cover it.



It keeps circling around to the same thing ... this new "proposal" is something which we already recognize for those who have served ... we just currently do it at a later time period. 

If, some would be so insistant of having a "new" award for same thing, but at the one year mark. Then hand out the damn one we already get at 12 on that one year mark instead. Then give out the first bar at 12. Save the taxpayers shitloads of money (because the medals and bars and rosettes are already IN the system) and because it, in fact, recognizes ALL the criteria this new proposal well. EVERYONE in the CF is ALREADY a volunteer; we don't conscript.

Other than that, FRP???!!! PIC I hope you aren't speaking of the FRPers who took those nice cashouts to retire early on a voluntary basis --- some of whom came back to working in the CF within a couple of years after having voluntarily left it ... And for those whose contracts "just weren't" renewed --- they all would have had their 3 years of service with an initial BE. Seems bumping up the CD to one year should solve that little matter too.

But, me somehow suspects, that would not solve the matter either for the vast majority of "Yes - for this medal pers" as there'd be "*no new * bling" to wear, but just "*earlier* bling".


And, I give this thread another 6 weeks before we circle around the drain to the exact same thing once again.

Usually that warrants a "lock" or a move to "radio chatter" until some "new info" comes along.

A former general adding his name to an online petition does not "new" info make; it's simply chatter. It's no more important weight-wise than all of those numbers of former generals who did NOT add their names to the online position.


----------



## PIC

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Now this one, Induct Dan Fogelberg Into The Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame might have legs.
> 
> Sorry, its late, and I have 6 hours left in my shift...... :-[



You should have posted that to a new topic....I think you better get some sleep, and lots of it.
The petition pertains to the GGVSM, that is found here:<a href="http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/volunteer-service-medal-for-our-veterans.html">Online petition - Petition for a Volunteer Service Medal for our Veterans (GGVSM)</a>
But I, and many others know just what you are up to.

And it stinks  :nod:   :fifty:


----------



## FDO

Why issue a medal to someone who can't wear it. If you didn't do 12 to get the CD then exactly when do you plan to display this award and how? If you want recognition then apply for the Veteran's Plates for your car. I think (but don't quote me) quite a few of the provinces have this now. You apply through the local Legion. Having those plates on my car gives me more recognition than another medal in my sock drawer would! And if your still serving and haven't gotten a medal yet just wait it will come. We have so many now and for almost everything that no one should be without one for very long. Or just do 12 and get the CD then walk.


----------



## Towards_the_gap

This is like a strong fart in a church. It just won't go away.


I'm sorry, but if you didn't deploy or do 12 years, then you DO NOT DESERVE a medal. Apply for your veterans plate instead, and show your pride that way.

6 years spent counting blankets in a warehouse somewhere sure is valuable service, but does it merit a medal? NO!!!

Medals are for valour (MMV, SMV), long service (CD), meritorious coduct (MSM) or campaigns - (GCS, SWASM). Why do we need a 'got issued DEU's/drank in the JR's/went on exercise once' medal???? Does that kind of service really equal campaign service or the service req'd for a CD?

If you think it does give your head a shake.


----------



## SeanNewman

Retired FDO said:
			
		

> Why issue a medal to someone who can't wear it?



There are plenty of times the CF does that, (Sacrifice Medal for being killed, valour decorations for actions conducted before dying, etc).

No I'm not comparing a VC with this medal; just saying that all sorts of medals get issued to people who can't wear them.

Plus, they could wear them on Remembrance Day as well as on their Legion uniforms if they go there.


----------



## Towards_the_gap

PIC said:
			
		

> Let us remember all of our Veterans and give them at least one medal to wear to give them the dignity and honour they deserve for volunteering to serve and the GGVSM would be a truly outstanding Canadian Medal to do this.



This is the biggest thing I take issue with. Is not the knowledge that you honourably served not dignifying/honourable enough? Is a little bit of tin on your chest going to make you feel better about VR'ing after 3 years and not doing a tour? 

Like I've said in the other cheap bling thread, this medal is nothing more than ego padding for those who couldn't/wouldn't do the time or the tours to earn gongs. And now, with the increase in awareness of veterans, the rising tide of 'support our troops', they think they need something to help them climb on the bandwagon, and to feel good about themselves at Rememberance Day when they see everyone else who did do something with their military careers.


----------



## Loachman

PIC said:
			
		

> But I, and many others know just what you are up to.



Well, when we see something goofy, we say so - one way or another.


----------



## vonGarvin

Oh, I can see it now
"How come he has a medal, and I don't?"
"He did 12 years honourable service."
"No fair, I want one!"
"How long did you serve?"
"Six years."
"OK, here's your medal."
"But, what about me?"
"OK, how long did *you* serve?"
"Three years."
"OK, here's your medal."
"But..."
"Hold on, let me guess, you did 1.5 years?"
:nod:
"OK, here you go."
And on it goes.....


Dude, I have CD, with clasp.  It took me 22 years to earn that COMBINED with honourable service.  You want bling?  Go join these guys.


----------



## observor 69

I am retired Air Force, have a CD with bar and the done my time in NATO medal, and I also held onto my old wedge.

I am not a member of the Legion but I attend every Remembrance day ceremony in honour of those who served and sacrificed.

Many vets wear their medals and old service head dress as they stand among the crowd. For some reason I have yet to do the same.

I am interested in the thinking on whether I should or should not wear the medals and head dress. 

Also at my age the thought occurs of what do people do with medals after they pass on and family don't want them?


----------



## Greymatters

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> ... this medal is nothing more than ego padding for those who couldn't/wouldn't do the time or the tours to earn gongs. And now, with the increase in awareness of veterans, the rising tide of 'support our troops', they think they need something to help them climb on the bandwagon, and to feel good about themselves at Rememberance Day when they see everyone else who did do something with their military careers.



I think that pretty much sums it up.  Although, there will always be those who did do something worthy and didnt get any medal-related recognition for it, the line has to be drawn somewhere.  The alternative is going to a ribbon system like the US has...


----------



## Franko

...and this one is spinning around the bowl nicely, over an asinine petition just to get more "salad" for their DEUs or Legion jacket. Towards the Gap summed it up.

Troops wonder why things like this are left to the higher powers that be who actually sit down and weigh the Merritt of a new gong. 

So, if someone out there is petty enough and really wants a new medal to put on their chest you can go here and get one.

Screw it....VCs for everyone who passed BMQ/ Cornwallis!           :

Regards


----------



## George Wallace

PIC said:
			
		

> Petition:
> To The Government of Canada
> 
> Whereas:
> 
> 1. During a specified period of Service to their Country, Canadians, from 3 September 1939, to 1 March 1947, received the Canadian Volunteer Service Medal, and



These were awarded to persons who "Volunteered" during WW II.  Not the same as what is proposed in this petition.



			
				PIC said:
			
		

> 2. During a specified period of Service to their Country, Canadians, from 27 June 1950, to 27 July 1953, received the Canadian Volunteer Service Medal for Korea;



Again, these were awarded to persons who "Volunteered" during the Korean War years.  Again, not what the petition proposes.



			
				PIC said:
			
		

> We, the undersigned residents of Canada, respectfully call upon the Government of Canada, to recognize by means of the issuance of a new Canadian Volunteer Service Medal, to be designated “The Governor General’s Volunteer Service Medal”, for volunteer service by Canadians in the Regular and Reserve Military Forces and Cadet Corps Support Staff who were not eligible for the aforementioned medals and who have completed 365 days of uninterrupted honourable duty in the service of their country Canada, since 2 March 1947.



This is not consistant with the two examples that are being used to justify this medal.


----------



## George Wallace

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> And, I give this thread another 6 weeks hours before we circle around the drain to the exact same thing once again.




There.  Fixed that for you.


----------



## McG

A medal for one year of service?  Really?

I like the misleading use of the word "vetran" to tug on the heart strings of Canadians ... of course at 365 days in uniform one is lucky to just be complete trainig let alone be a vetran.


----------



## Kat Stevens

I'm going to hate myself for this later, but here goes.  Firstly, I DO NOT SUPPORT THIS IDEA IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM.  However (you knew it was coming) for those of you in the "why do you need outward symbols of achievement, the warm fuzzy feeling from a job well done is enough for me" camp,  why then do you accept promotions, career courses, jammy taskings, and four star postings?  Just for doing your job well?  Isn't the satisfaction of being great at what you do enough?  Gimme a frickin' break, EVERYONE likes to receive public recognition for accomplishments.  Everyone on this site with more than basic training and a Timmie's run under their belt has an "I love me" wall somewhere in their home.  Doing a good job in the military is like pissing yourself in a dark blue suit, you get a warm feeling, but it goes away quickly and nobody else notices.


----------



## PIC

In the land down under there is a medal called ADM which is quite similar to the proposal
Feel free to google "ADM" or Australian Defence Medal in your search engin.
You may be enlightened.

"Moral courage is the most valuable and usually the most absent characteristic in men"
 _______________________________GGP___________________________________
 :nod:


----------



## Towards_the_gap

Because maintaining a pulse for 365 days, albeit whilst in uniform, is in no way shape or form, an achievement. The whole point of medals is to recognise service above and beyond the normal day to day routine. This medal is proposed solely to recognise the mundane, routine, day to day....


----------



## George Wallace

PIC said:
			
		

> In the land down under there is a medal called ADM which is quite similar to the proposal
> Feel free to google "ADM" or Australian Defence Medal in your search engin.
> You may be enlightened.
> 
> "Moral courage is the most valuable and usually the most absent characteristic in men"
> _______________________________GGP___________________________________
> :nod:



I already see the members of the CF, who have the moral courage, discipline, dedication and commitment receiving an award for their 'Service'.  It is the Canadian Forces Decoration.  Those who do not have this moral courage, discipline, dedication and commitment do not receive this award.

In your 'Petition', the examples you use have a higher criteria to be met than the proposed medal.   The petition is for an award that really degrades the moral courage, discipline, dedication and commitment of those who have served with distinction long enough to be awarded a CD.  This is a totally flawed petition, and totally unnecessary.  Its criteria should be the same as for those examples that you have provided: "For Volunteer Service in time of War".........not for signing on the dotted line as a whim and then finding out that you don't like military life.

Do you see why this is such an objectionable and unnecessary petition yet?


----------



## Edward Campbell

Baden  Guy said:
			
		

> I am retired Air Force, have a CD with bar and the done my time in NATO medal, and I also held onto my old wedge.
> 
> I am not a member of the Legion but I attend every Remembrance day ceremony in honour of those who served and sacrificed.
> 
> Many vets wear their medals and old service head dress as they stand among the crowd. For some reason I have yet to do the same.
> 
> *I am interested in the thinking on whether I should or should not wear the medals and head dress.*
> 
> Also at my age the thought occurs of what do people do with medals after they pass on and family don't want them?




Speaking only for myself: I, habitually, attend that service at the National War Memorial and then go to my mess for a drink and lunch and, perhaps, a few more drinks with friends and fellow retired officers. The "dress of the day," for we old retired folk, is regimental blazer and flannels with medals. I conform, with the few, relatively _tame_ medals awarded to me.

Several of my friends wear headdress at the service; several others, me included, do not - that goes for those who march in the various and sundry veterans' contingents and those, like me, who simply watch.

Re: passing on medals - I understand that most museums are overstocked with medals and some decline to accept any more, unless they are, somehow, _special_, perhaps related to an existing display. My suggestion is to sell them to one of the many reputable _militaria_ collectors who, as far as I know, treat them with respect.


----------



## mariomike

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Doing a good job in the military is like pissing yourself in a dark blue suit, you get a warm feeling, but it goes away quickly and nobody else notices.



I never heard that before, but it is a classic. Do you mind if I steal borrow it sometime?


----------



## Kat Stevens

mariomike said:
			
		

> I never heard that before, but it is a classic. Do you mind if I steal borrow it sometime?


Feel free, it's open source, and I'm not the original author.


----------



## PIC

George Wallace said:
			
		

> In your 'Petition'



This is not my petition........lets get that straight.


----------



## PIC

PIC said:
			
		

> And don't forget
> As for the total mumble jumble of the thread.......it is caused by those who have nothing good to say about squat. Unless of course it pertains to their own fattened belly.



I think this pretty well says it all.
What I have noticed is the fact that those who do support this initiative simply sign the petition.
Thank you
PIC


----------



## Journeyman

PIC said:
			
		

> In the land down under there is a medal called ADM which is quite similar to the proposal
> Feel free to google "ADM" or Australian Defence Medal in your search engin.
> You may be enlightened.


You haven't read much here, have you? 

Feel free to google "ADM" or Australian Defence Medal in _your_ search engine; read through the debate and you'll see that the consensus here is "that's nice." 

Using an Australian medal to support your argument is as rational as using American or Tanzanian criteria for their medals.

...or quoting yourself to support an argument, which pretty well _does_ says it all. Sadly though, saying those who disagree with you on this medal must have "fattened bellies and nothing good to say about squat," speaks volumes about the absent justification for this medal. 


But thanks for the attempted enlightenment.


----------



## George Wallace

PIC said:
			
		

> This is not my petition........lets get that straight.



We all know that, however, you seem to have taken on the task of garnering support; so in essence, it is "your petition", flawed as it is.

As for this BS:



			
				PIC said:
			
		

> As for the total mumble jumble of the thread.......it is caused by those who have nothing good to say about squat. Unless of course it pertains to their own fattened belly.





			
				PIC said:
			
		

> I think this pretty well says it all.
> What I have noticed is the fact that those who do support this initiative simply sign the petition.
> Thank you
> PIC



It only tells me that you are a twit.


----------



## dangerboy

Having just looked at the comments made in the petition I wonder how many of the people that signed it are aware of the current Canadian Honours and Awards.  Most people (in my opinion from reading their comments) don't seem to be aware that we have the CD and a lot of people say it is the least we can do for our veterans.  I think using the word veteran is just a ploy to pull on peoples emotions, hence why the are calling it "Volunteer Service Medal for Veterans" vice "Volunteer Service Medal for CF Members".


----------



## Edward Campbell

PIC said:
			
		

> I think this pretty well says it all.
> What I have noticed is the fact that those who do support this initiative simply sign the petition.
> Thank you
> PIC




And those who oppose this initiative explain why they do so, in an effort to dissuade others from signing a petition for a _gong_ that many consider useless or, even, an affront.


----------



## REDinstaller

I don't support the issue or creation of this medal either. If you are unwilling to complete 12 yrs, as so many have identified so far, than why should you get awarded a single thing. Severance pay is only for those that serve over 10 years, whats next? 6 weeks of BMQ and a failure then heres a thousand bucks and a thanks for coming out medal??? 12 yrs plus shows dedication, lets leave it at that.


----------



## George Wallace

dangerboy said:
			
		

> Having just looked at the comments made in the petition I wonder how many of the people that signed it are aware of the current Canadian Honours and Awards.  Most people (in my opinion from reading their comments) don't seem to be aware that we have the CD and a lot of people say it is the least we can do for our veterans.  I think using the word veteran is just a ploy to pull on peoples emotions, hence why the are calling it "Volunteer Service Medal for Veterans" vice "Volunteer Service Medal for CF Members".



I think that you have hit the hammer on the head.  It is a point that many, as you have pointed out, have been to lazy to research or investigate, and I believe PIC hasn't bothered to research.  We do have an Honours and Awards system in place to deal with such matters.  

What about all of us who have 'served honourably' in various locations around the country; does that give us cause to be awarded some of the Provincial awards as well?  Looking at the Chart of Awards at DH&R, there are Provincial medals that precede the Star of Military Valour:

G.O.Q., O.Q., C.Q.     (Quebec)
S.O.M.                        (Saskatchewan)
O. Ont.                        (Ontario)
O.B.C.                          (BC)
A.O.E.                          (Albert)
O.P.E.I.                        (PEI)
O.M.                             (Manitoba)
O.N.B.                          (NB)
O.N.S.                          (NS)
O.N.L.                           (Newfoundland and Labrador)

These are among the 25 medals that have precedence over the Star of Military Valour, the Star of Courage, and the Metorious Service Cross; and the 107 medals that have precedence over the CD.   Because I have served in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Quebec, Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and Alberta; as well as in the Territories, do I deserve these medals as well?  Let's get realistic about this.  What this petition is all about is a 'Cause' to create a redundant award, by people who haven't bothered to meet the criteria to be awarded a medal in the past.


----------



## SeanNewman

On a completely different tangent, if you had military medals _and_ an Olympic medal, would you be allowed to wear the Olympic medal with your DEUs?

Technoviking, can you please look up the regulations to see if I can wear my Shotput 1st Place ribbon I got on Grade 8 Track & Field day?


----------



## George Wallace

Petamocto said:
			
		

> On a completely different tangent, if you had military medals _and_ an Olympic medal, would you be allowed to wear the Olympic medal with your DEUs?
> 
> Technoviking, can you please look up the regulations to see if I can wear my Shotput 1st Place ribbon I got on Grade 8 Track & Field day?



The order of precedence can be found here at: Directorate of Honours and Recognition.


----------



## SeanNewman

George,

Thank you, that posted is up in my office.  Doesn't answer the question about Olympic medals, though.

It could be argued that anything that is not on that page is not allowed to be worn, but there are plenty of things not on the website/poster that are worn regularly.

I don't really need to know the answer about the Olympic medals; it was more of a tongue-in-cheek question.


----------



## Michael OLeary

PIC said:
			
		

> In the land down under there is a medal called ADM which is quite similar to the proposal
> Feel free to google "ADM" or Australian Defence Medal in your search engin.
> You may be enlightened.
> 
> "Moral courage is the most valuable and usually the most absent characteristic in men"
> _______________________________GGP___________________________________
> :nod:



Uh, yeah, we've heard all that we need to know about that one.


----------



## George Wallace

Petamocto said:
			
		

> George,
> 
> Thank you, that posted is up in my office.  Doesn't answer the question about Olympic medals, though.
> 
> It could be argued that anything that is not on that page is not allowed to be worn, but there are plenty of things not on the website/poster that are worn regularly.
> 
> I don't really need to know the answer about the Olympic medals; it was more of a tongue-in-cheek question.



I know; along with the "I deserve a Provincial Medal for every Province I have served in" comment I made earlier.  I can't even wear my Nijmegen medal or ribbon.   :'(


----------



## medicineman

I see someone forgot their Aricept today.

To reiterate what many have said already - the CVSM's were awarded to people who volunteered for service in TIMES OF WAR, not just to show up and get a job.  I have 6 medals, including a bar to my CD, all of which I believe I have earned or someone else thought I earned.  I'm still waiting, as are colleagues of mine, for one to acknowledge and recognize service in Haiti and other friends are waiting for one to recognize service in Sierra Leone (alot longer than me I might add).  Should I perhaps receive one with a bar recognizing every single place in Canada I've visited and worked in or at on Her Majesty's business as well?  I think no - the extra cash she so generously gave me is good enough I think.  Plus I have pictures.  To sum up, this sort of thing just ends up clogging up the system for things that really should be recognized - ACTIVE SERVICE in an OPERATIONAL AREA.

BTW, my dad still hasn't applied for his SSM - NATO for his time in Germany in the 60's - he still has problems believing they've issued a medal for it.

MM


----------



## George Wallace

OK   PIC

Stop being so infantile.  Give it a rest.  If you can not seriously validate your point, accept that you have been defeated in this discussion.


----------



## the 48th regulator

I like this medal, and think it is neat.

I support the creation, and issue of it.



dileas

tess

p.s I got a big belly, too.


----------



## PIC

Obviously, everyone has there own opinion on the matter.  There was however a vote on it.
May 2007. Only 98 members voted. 40.8% said yes, and 35.7% said no. I notice today there are
25,711 members. Maybe it would be a good time to vote. What do you say?
And I don't care to be attacked, that's pretty low.
I am also entitled to my own opinion.......so settle down. I make no attack on anyone.


----------



## George Wallace

PIC said:
			
		

> Obviously, everyone has there own opinion on the matter.  There was however a vote on it.
> May 2007. Only 98 members voted. 40.8% said yes, and 35.7% said no. I notice today there are
> 25,711 members. Maybe it would be a good time to vote. What do you say?
> And I don't care to be attacked, that's pretty low.
> I am also entitled to my own opinion.......so settle down. I make no attack on anyone.



Your math is off:   57 per cent said NO.


----------



## PIC

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Your math is off:   57 per cent said NO.


I stand corrected. I thought the" no to expensive" was part of that.
Even so, that was in 2007.
Furthermore, access to the link of this petition is completely burried within these pages, which makes the so- called
25000 member status of this site  reduced to a mere clique.
You must therefore be very proud.


----------



## SeanNewman

I want to find a way to articulate that I agree some people who never leave Canada do more for Canada than some people who deploy overseas...without making it look like I support the medal part of it.  Not just the training part, but what about people who helped actual Canadians (not Afghans) in the ice storm or floods?

The very presence of so many different types of medals debunks the idea that you should only get medals for overseas service.  There are bravery/valour medals, long service medals, and being a casualty medals among many others.

Pic,

I think the obstacle you need to get over to sell your argument is to explain why a Volunteer-type medal is appropriate when everyone is a volunteer.  Maybe it's just a matter of the wording.

It's like the name "Sacrifice Medal".  The very name of it says nothing about combat, but the first draft of the criteria was exclusively combat so it should have been named "Combat Casualty Medal" or something.  If they had done that, there wouldn't have been the sh!t storm that followed from people asking "How did my son who died in a rollover accident not sacrifice for the CF" or "How is me getting paralyzed in an airborne landing not sacrificing for the CF?".

I'm not trying to steer this thread toward that medal, I'm just using it as an example of how the wording is important.

I think a lot of the friction you are getting on this board is not necessarily idea based so much as regulation based.  When it comes up that it should be time-based people bring up the CD.  When it comes up that it should be volunteer-based it comes up that everyone is a volunteer.


----------



## GAP

> some people who never leave Canada do more for Canada than some people who deploy overseas...without making it look like I support the medal part of it.  Not just the training part, but what about people who helped actual Canadians (not Afghans) in the ice storm or floods?



One of my sons has done the ice storm, the flood, Bosnia, Kabul, Kandahar in '06, and, and....and I don't see him any different (other than the experience and the fact that he is a terrific example) than the other two, one of which did a civilian tour in Kandahar before joining, one of which is just starting out....They will all have their tours, their experiences, etc. that make up life in the military. 

They don't need bling to prove they were there...the people that matter already know that.


----------



## SeanNewman

Yes but as someone brought up a couple pages ago, the logical end to that argument is "Well why reward anything, then?"

If people know what they did and don't need anything to show for it, why have medals for overseas service or valour?  Why wear parachute wings or a diver badge?

Why accept promotions and more pay instead of saying "I'm just doing my job".


----------



## Michael OLeary

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Yes but as someone brought up a couple pages ago, the logical end to that argument is "Well why reward anything, then?"



You are oversimplifying the argument to suggest it as a case of "reward nothing" or "reward everything".

The question is, in each range of awards (whether that be skill badges, long service medals, valour decorations, etc.) where does the awarding agency (corps, trade, country, etc.) draw the line and say that "THIS" is the minimum level at which a visible official article of recognition will be issued.

Even if this suggestion of a new medal has merit, the point of contention remains how much time is worthy for that particular type of recognition.  Since the long service medals available to Canadians were all replaced by the CD, 12 years has been that limit and that has seemed satisfactory for many years. The required argument is what should be necessary to reduce that - and still be worthy of a medal in recognition. What has changed? Lastly, if a shorter period before the initial award of a service medal is desired, is the idea of an earlier award and an extra bar to the CD, as suggested by Vern, not a viable option?  Why should this proposal only be satisfied by a new medal?


----------



## rormson

I'm with the 40% who think this is a good idea. For sure we don't want to have our DEU's looking like those of other militaries who get a medal every time they have a tactical fart -- however, since members of the CF represent a vast minority of Canadians who have chose to serve their country their service should be recognized. Many have or will not make it to 12 years for the CD. What about those who have worked hard for 8 years, 10, etc.? We don't do enough to recognize those who have the motivation to enrol, complete training and serve their country. My $0.02


----------



## aesop081

I have know enough people who spent so much time on PAT platoons that they would be elligible for a medal like this without having actualy served in anything.


When people get out after X-many years and no CD, they have usualy acquired enough certificates of this and that to make themselves feel important enough.

enough already............


----------



## 1feral1

WRT the CD, Canada is one of the few Commonwealth countries which as a lesser 12 years wait for this gong. Many are 15 years with 5 yrs clasps, again compared to the 10 year ones for the currrent CD. Imagine the whingers if this was changed to conform to Commonwealth standards.

Should this medal be considered, the period of 365 days IMHO would have to be changed to a much longer period.

I wonder what would happen if this award comes through and those on here who have such a negative feeling towards it are awarded one? Perhaps massive disobendience being displayed and organised? What message does that send out not only to the Canadian public, but to the Queen and Gov General?

Service from the 1940's here meant that about 1,000,000 of these 'similar'gongs had to be struck for former and serving members, and the tally even grows now.

For reference purposes, comparison, and couriousity, here is the criteria for the Australian Long Service Medal, the Australian Defence Medal, and the Cadet Forces Service Medal criteria is also below.

Defence Long Service Medal
The Defence Long Service Medal recognises 15 years diligent service by members of the regular and reserve forces.

About the award
The medal was established in 1998 on the recommendation of the 1994 Committee of Inquiry into Defence and Defence Related Awards.

The medal replaced three awards: the Defence Force Service Medal, the Reserve Force Decoration and the Reserve Force Medal.

Service that previously would have gone unrecognised when individuals moved between regular and reserve forces is acknowledged by the Defence Long Service Medal. It does not discriminate between ranks.
The Defence Long Service Medal was formally established on 26 May 1998 by Letters Patent.
How it is awarded

The Governor-General makes the award on the recommendation of the Chief of the Defence Force or his/her delegate.

Clasps may be issued for each subsequent 5 years diligent service.

The Defence Long Service Medal does not carry a post-nominal entitlement.

------------------

The ADM,

Significance
The Australian Defence Medal recognises current and former Australian Defence Force personnel who completed an initial enlistment period, or four years service, whichever was the lesser.

History
The Australian Defence Medal was established on 20 March 2006 by Letters Patent. The gazette notice is available on the Attorney-General's website.

It recognises qualifying efficient service of current and former Australian Defence Force (ADF) Regular and Reserve personnel, including National Servicemen, who have served since the end of World War II.

Regulations governing the award of the Medal were gazetted on 30 March 2006. 

Past recipients
View the numbers awarded for the Australian Defence Medal.

How it is awarded
The Governor-General (or his delegate) awards the Australian Defence Medal on the recommendation of the Chief of the Defence Force (or his delegate).

The eligibility criteria requires completion of an initial enlistment period or four years service, whichever is the lesser. The criteria also includes those who could not serve the four-year qualifying period or complete an initial enlistment period for one or more of the following reasons:

•the death of a member during service;
•the discharge of the member as medically unfit due to compensable impairment;
•the discharge of the member due to a prevailing discriminatory Defence policy, as determined by the Chief of the Defence Force or his or her delegate.

The equivilant to Canada's CIC do not get the LSM or the ADM as they are not Reserves like in Canada, they have their own, the Cadet Froces Service Medal. Cadets get nothing.

Significance
The Australian Cadet Forces Service Medal recognises long and efficient service by officers and instructors in the Australian Cadet Forces. It is awarded for 15 years service. 

History
The Australian Cadet Forces Service Medal was created in 1999 and is the successor to the British Cadet Forces Medal, which ceased to be issued in Australia in 1974. 

The Australian medal was formally established on 15 December 1999 by Letters Patent. 

Past recipients
View the numbers awarded for the Australian Cadet Forces Service Medal.

How it is awarded
The Governor-General awards the Australian Cadet Forces Service Medal or a clasp on the recommendation of the Chief of the Defence Force or his/her delegate.

Clasps may be issued for each subsequent 5 years diligent service.

The Australian Cadet Forces Service Medal does not carry a post-nominal entitlement. 

Medal design

Australian Cadet Forces Service Medal
The Australian Cadet Forces Service Medal features the Cadet Forces emblem, which is encircled by the words 'Australian Cadet Forces Service Medal'.

The medal is nickel-silver and is ensigned with the Crown of Saint Edward. 

A Federation Star is displayed on the back of the medal. 

Medal Ribbon 
The 32 millimetre-wide ribbon features vertical stripes of the traditional long service medal colours, gold and azure-blue. This central panel is flanked by stripes of blue, red and navy, which represent links with the Royal Australian Air Force, the Australian Army and the Royal Australian Navy. 
----------

Cheers,

OWDU


----------



## Kat Stevens

Off topic kinda but not really, but I'd sooner see anybody who spent one day in this country's uniform receive the Order of Canada than Celine Dion, Brian Adams, Sue Johanson, or Henry Mogentaller.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> For reference purposes, comparison, and couriousity, here is the criteria for the Australian Long Service Medal, the Australian Defence Medal, and the Cadet Forces Service Medal criteria is also below.



Thank you.

Now that the fact that the Australians have service medals has been posted once again, we can assume that any further posts on Australian medals will be a repetitive waste of bandwidth in discussing a Canadian medal proposal?

Or did you want to start a special thread where you can post the details of every Commonwealth long service medal for our reference?


----------



## the 48th regulator

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/providers/sub.cfm?source=forces/nvc/infoKits/ServiceBenefits#Item2-1

A CF Veteran is a former member of the Canadian Forces who has:

    * been released with an honourable discharge; and
    * met all the professional military occupational classification requirements of the Department of National Defence (DND).

Please note: This definition recognizes you as a CF Veteran but other criteria are needed to qualify for VAC benefits. 

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/news-nouvelles/news-nouvelles-eng.asp?cat=02&id=1612

In 2001, the Department of National Defence and Veterans Affairs Canada refined the definition of a veteran to recognize all former CF members, Regular and Reserve, who have met both DND’s Military Occupational Classification (MOC) requirements and have been honourably discharged. Many members of the CF have previous service and are therefore currently considered Veterans.

Being a Veteran, has already been given a Criteria by DND, and recognized by VAC.

Just a point, so as we do not mistake what a Veteran is....

dileas

tess


----------



## Towards_the_gap

RGO said:
			
		

> I'm with the 40% who think this is a good idea. For sure we don't want to have our DEU's looking like those of other militaries who get a medal every time they have a tactical fart -- however, since members of the CF represent a vast minority of Canadians who have chose to serve their country their service should be recognized. Many have or will not make it to 12 years for the CD. What about those who have worked hard for 8 years, 10, etc.? We don't do enough to recognize those who have the motivation to enrol, complete training and serve their country. My $0.02



Really? Veterans Plates, all the benefits from VAC, all the rememberance week activities (which in most cases aren't just about the war dead, but those who have served), the public acceptance and thanks we get daily (getting offered drinks in airports cause we're in uniform) etc etc. Never mind the Depart with Dignity stuff, departure scrolls, leaving gifts, all the benefits from the RCL and membership thereof.

Being able to say ' I was once a soldier/sailor/airperson*' should be enough.        *insert gender appropriate term for airforce here.        

I think we DO do enough for those who have served. How much backslapping do they need for doing 3-5-8 years and not doing an operational tour?


----------



## SeanNewman

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Being a Veteran, has already been given a Criteria by DND, and recognized by VAC.  Just a point, so as we do not mistake what a Veteran is....



Another dead horse beating, but even veterans organizations can not get their definition straight because The Legion has a different definition that includes current serving members.


----------



## 1feral1

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Thank you.
> 
> Now that the fact that the Australians have service medals has been posted once again, we can assume that any further posts on Australian medals will be a repetitive waste of bandwidth in discussing a Canadian medal proposal?
> 
> Or did you want to start a special thread where you can post the details of every Commonwealth long service medal for our reference?



Your welcome Michael.

That is a very good idea about Commonweatlh Long Service Medals, as it could satisfy many who are possibly curious (some collectors/or interested in collecting, etc) about what our sister nations offer their Defence Force Members. I would even be interested. 

I'll start working on that.

As a Canadian, who sports the privillage of dual nationality, I feel what I discuss about this medal has rellevance, and the comparison to a similar award has merrit, considering what I have read, the ADM has been brought in by the petitioner. To Save others and those new to this post or site from digging thru a long thread, I thought it would be wise to repost some info, and add the LSM and Cadet awards, and I most humblely appologise if that was taken out of the original context I was trying to put accross.

Regards,

Wes


----------



## Edward Campbell

This thread has gone on _waaaay_ too long and has, also, gone _waaaay_ off the track.

Most countries, including Canada, have _long service and good conduct_ medals (the CD for us); some have _short service_ medals (Australia and the USA, to name two) - Canada does not; the _consensus_ amongst Army.ca members is *Thanks but no thanks*.

There is a petition; lots of people signed it; in my opinion it will fail because I think that almost all senior officers will agree with almost all members here and say, "Thanks but no thanks" and the government of the day is very unlikely to institute an award against the expressed wishes of its most senior naval and military officers.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

I will add my Thanks but No Thanks as well.

I also think this thread has outlived its usefulness.

locked usual caveats apply

Milnet.Ca Staff


----------

