# RegF Support Staff (RSS) - Reserve Trg hours [Merged]



## wesleyd (23 Oct 2011)

Currently posted to a reserve unit. Love the job and the unit. However one concern is working hours. They have Monday and Wednesday training/admin nights from 1900-2200 and one Saturday a week. The CO at the unit informed me that I am not a public servant and am expected to be at all unit events without any compensation. So Mondays and Wednesdays are from 0750 until 2215. While Class A, which most command are, works 3 days per week. I understand the Military obligation and we don't have a 9-5 job ( I have 23+ years in and 20 years sea time). But I am not used to having to work 55+ hours a week (every week) and not get any time off for it. While at sea these hours are normal but we get sea pay and usually some time off for extra work, ports, PDL, etc. I have tried my COC and there is nothing they can do. To me this is a quality of life issue. The unit tells me it is operational requirement but it is a building.
Looking for some advice on how to deal with this matter. Never had to deal with this in the past.
Thanks


----------



## aesop081 (23 Oct 2011)

wesleyd said:
			
		

> and one Saturday a week.



My liver wouldn't be doing too good if there was more than one Saturday a week  ;D


----------



## Monsoon (23 Oct 2011)

wesleyd said:
			
		

> Currently posted to a reserve unit. Love the job and the unit. However one concern is working hours. They have Monday and Wednesday training/admin nights from 1900-2200 and one Saturday a week. The CO at the unit informed me that I am not a public servant and am expected to be at all unit events without any compensation. So Mondays and Wednesdays are from 0750 until 2215. While Class A, which most command are, works 3 days per week. I understand the Military obligation and we don't have a 9-5 job ( I have 23+ years in and 20 years sea time). But I am not used to having to work 55+ hours a week (every week) and not get any time off for it. While at sea these hours are normal but we get sea pay and usually some time off for extra work, ports, PDL, etc. I have tried my COC and there is nothing they can do. To me this is a quality of life issue. The unit tells me it is operational requirement but it is a building.
> Looking for some advice on how to deal with this matter. Never had to deal with this in the past.
> Thanks


Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent units. But if your command team is working 3 days a week class "A" on top of their 40 hour civilian jobs, you can imagine that they're reluctant to entertain griping about having to put in extra work from the career sailors sent to support the unit.



> While at sea these hours are normal ...


Bingo. Don't tell me the extra $250 a month you get as sea pay makes the difference for the extra working hours; you put those hours in because you believe in your job and because everyone understands it to be normal. The real problem here is that you arrived at your new unit believing that you were being sent on a "lifestyle" posting that would let you spend lots of time with your family, etc, etc, so expectations were out of whack with the realities of the job. Not your fault - I wish the "facts of life" for Reg F staff sent to support NRDs were better communicated to the people being posted in so they could decide if they're willing to make the commitment in advance of the posting.

My experience of having been full-time staff at an NRD was that I've never worked more constantly in any other job (including on operational deployment abroad). If you find your 50 hours per week unproductive, it's because something really important isn't getting done; find out what that is, figure out how to fix it, rinse, repeat and eventually you'll find the job fulfilling. If it's any consolation, NRD life slows down (to about 40 hours/week) in the summers.

To answer your question of how to "deal" with this, though - figure out how to make the system work the way you envision. Are you going to the gym on company time? There's a NAVRESORD that permits it. Contact day staff at other NRDs and ask what their pers policies are; look at the work you have to do and figure out how you can accomplish it in 40 hours a week, then structure a formal proposal in a briefing note to command with a recommendation for how to change the system. If its focus is in the right place (i.e. on the needs of the unit and how they can be adequately met with less full-time coverage) and sufficiently documented with examples of your proposal working elsewhere, they may accept it. But if they don't bite, don't fight the white and just ask for a posting-out from your CM for next year. And when you go back to the fleet, remember the poor bastards (reserve and Reg F) who are running their bags off to make the Naval Reserve work.


----------



## Occam (23 Oct 2011)

I think what the OP meant was that the Command Team works Mon/Wed/Sat but are not being sympathetic to the dayworking RSS who works the straight days as well as the training hours.  If they have civvie jobs during the day (which they're getting paid for) as well as their reserve Class A hours (which they're getting paid for), then they're not exactly being fair expecting the RSS to put in all these hours just because they're salaried.

I too would recommend that you take a casual survey of your brethren in the RSS positions at the NRDs across the country.  Something doesn't sound right.


----------



## Monsoon (23 Oct 2011)

Occam said:
			
		

> I think what the OP meant was that the Command Team works Mon/Wed/Sat but are not being sympathetic to the dayworking RSS who works the straight days as well as the training hours.  If they have civvie jobs during the day (which they're getting paid for) as well as their reserve Class A hours (which they're getting paid for), then they're not exactly being fair expecting the RSS to put in all these hours just because they're salaried.


Understood, but the flip side of that is that if the OP is willing to work those hours on ship, why not at an NRD? Because it's "just an NRD" isn't going to fly, I can tell you up front.

Definitely not saying that's how'd I'd approach the situation in their shoes, but he needs to understand where they're coming from - they're busy people with civilian lives and careers, they've been putting overtime in for the organization for 20 years or more, and they're not doing it for $200 a week. It's because they believe in it, and they may (understandably) not have a lot of patience for the professionals posted in who find that level of commitment onerous.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (23 Oct 2011)

Occam said:
			
		

> I think what the OP meant was that the Command Team works Mon/Wed/Sat but are not being sympathetic to the dayworking RSS who works the straight days as well as the training hours.  If they have civvie jobs during the day (which they're getting paid for) as well as their reserve Class A hours (which they're getting paid for), then they're not exactly being fair expecting the RSS to put in all these hours just because they're salaried.
> 
> I too would recommend that you take a casual survey of your brethren in the RSS positions at the NRDs across the country.  Something doesn't sound right.




Thank God,...I thought this was just goin to be another "suck it up Buttercup" pile on.
Occam, thank you.

Making someone work 55 hours a week, every week, seems more a matter of bad planning then an "operational requirement".


----------



## Fishbone Jones (23 Oct 2011)

Occam said:
			
		

> I think what the OP meant was that the Command Team works Mon/Wed/Sat but are not being sympathetic to the dayworking RSS who works the straight days as well as the training hours.  If they have civvie jobs during the day (which they're getting paid for) as well as their reserve Class A hours (which they're getting paid for), then they're not exactly being fair expecting the RSS to put in all these hours just because they're salaried.
> 
> I too would recommend that you take a casual survey of your brethren in the RSS positions at the NRDs across the country.  Something doesn't sound right.



The OP never mentioned pay, which really is moot to the discussion. The compensation he was speaking of what time off in lieu.
Types of day jobs (or the dollars) for Cl A are meaningless. It's all about hours.


----------



## chrisf (23 Oct 2011)

Obviously it depends by CO, and as such, by unit, but (winter) for the reg force and Class B staff at our unit have them working on Thursday evening, but they take off at 12 on Friday afternoon, and take monday off any time they attend an exercise over the weekend...

Expecting somone to work 55 hours just because you can *make* them work 55 hours a week is certainly bad planning... it's basically the same as expecting them to work an eight hour work day, every day.... in the same class as eliminating PT because "there's work to be done" (There's always work to be done... very little of it can't wait till after PT....).

[Brief side rant here, excuse me] Speaking of command team working a 40 hour work week in addition to their class A reserve commitments, nothing irritates me more then listening to our Class A CO gripe about Class A attendance... he works irregular shifts himself, and I have yet to see him show up for any exercise for more than an hour... given that most of our personnel base are students, they're going to miss some exercises... I work about a 45 hour work week civi side, and I still have far more free time then I did when I was a student....


----------



## Pat in Halifax (23 Oct 2011)

I am assuming you are a PO1/PO2 (I did the same job at an NRD too). Figure something out, talk to the RegF LCdr and TELL him your plan. I had an ugly confrontation myself with my NRD's XO but in the end, all were happy and there was no disrespect. What's the saying?: You can be happy, or you can be right.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (23 Oct 2011)

I've done the 55hr/week RSS gig, too (including one unforgettable stretch of 27 straight days, without a day off).  The biggest problem is one of burnout- most people cannot sustain that kind of a pace for a 2-3 year posting and still remain productive.

The OP is correct that we are not public service employees and we work the hours that are required.  However, most reserve units that I am familiar with do make allowances that grant time off in lieu to the full-time staff ( including both reg and res full-time staff) in an attempt to keep them motivated and effective over he long run.


----------



## Monsoon (23 Oct 2011)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Making someone work 55 hours a week, every week, seems more a matter of bad planning then an "operational requirement".


Not to beat a dead horse here (I've already said what I needed to, which is just to approach the problem with comprehensive staff work), but the OP isn't really working 55 hours a week. Here's how the schedule looks in reality:

M - F: 0800 to 1600 (40 hours)
T & Th: 1900 to 2200 (6 hours)
(I have a feeling the one Saturday a week was a typo - should be one per month. No unit is budgeted that much, and they'll typically drop a training evening in lieu)

Less one-hour lunches every day (-5)
Less a half-hour at the gym every day (if he's taking advantage of it) (-2.5)

In reality, 55 hours a week pretty quickly turns into less than 40 if you approach it the way any civilian employer (even the public service) would. For sure, he's not going to be able to go home over lunch hours and in the three hours between the end of the normal work day and the beginning of the training night; he may even just stay at his desk in that time to clear up some work - but that's not because his bosses are forcing him to. We in the CF have the bad habit of equating "time away from home" with "time at work". There's not a company in the world that would recognize his schedule as 55 hours for the purposes of overtime.

And again, this isn't a vote of support for the decisions of his unit leadership - just a bit of devil's advocacy.


----------



## Occam (23 Oct 2011)

recceguy said:
			
		

> The OP never mentioned pay, which really is moot to the discussion. The compensation he was speaking of what time off in lieu.
> Types of day jobs (or the dollars) for Cl A are meaningless. It's all about hours.



Yup, I understand that.  I wasn't suggesting that there is any kind of financial compensation expected (although if one is forced to spend the entire day at the NRD, then meal claims for supper might be something worth thinking about).  I only mentioned the pay aspect of the reservists to illustrate that they're getting compensated for both their civvie and their class A hours, while the Reg F guy is getting the same compensation regardless of hours worked.  There should be some compensatory time off going on.  

Even shift workers (under the CF Leave Manual) are supposed to have their hours scheduled such that they receive an equivalent number of hours of time off as compared to Mon-Fri workers.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (23 Oct 2011)

Occam said:
			
		

> Yup, I understand that.  I wasn't suggesting that there is any kind of financial compensation expected (although if one is forced to spend the entire day at the NRD, then meal claims for supper might be something worth thinking about).  I only mentioned the pay aspect of the reservists to illustrate that they're getting compensated for both their civvie and their class A hours, while the Reg F guy is getting the same compensation regardless of hours worked.  There should be some compensatory time off going on.
> 
> Even shift workers (under the CF Leave Manual) are supposed to have their hours scheduled such that they receive an equivalent number of hours of time off as compared to Mon-Fri workers.



I won't flog it, but, there's lots of Cl A guys flipping burgers and such that would love to have compensation equal to a Reg F salary. Not every Cl A guy is a corporate CEO or auto worker, for example


----------



## FSTO (23 Oct 2011)

Many units use days in lieu to compensate which I think is fair. Our issue is the lack of class A's which forces more and more work on the FTS. If we loose a Reg force member with no replacement it makes things even harder. Small units are expected to produce the same amount of paperwork as larger units and it is starting to burn us out.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (23 Oct 2011)

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> M - F: 0800 to 1600 (40 hours)
> T & Th: 1900 to 2200 (6 hours)
> There's not a company in the world that would recognize his schedule as 55 hours for the purposes of overtime.



Also not to beat a dead horse but where I work the nights would be overtime as it was less than 8 hours between scheduled shifts.

And "time away from my family" because of work is my benchmark


----------



## Fishbone Jones (23 Oct 2011)

FSTO said:
			
		

> Many units use days in lieu to compensate which I think is fair. Our issue is the lack of class A's which forces more and more work on the FTS. If we loose a Reg force member with no replacement it makes things even harder. Small units are expected to produce the same amount of paperwork as larger units and it is starting to burn us out.



This is not just a problem that affects FTS. Many units\ brigades\areas, demand exceedingly larger amounts of administration from all individuals, including Cl A's. In effect, what ends up happening, is that many senior Cl A people (WO & up) end up after working their civvie job and having supper, sitting down at their computer for another few hours, almost nightly. Most don't get compensated for it. While I picked WO & up as the example, I've seen this becoming more prevalent all the way down to the MCpl level.


----------



## Jarnhamar (23 Oct 2011)

For RSS and day staff in the reserves you can really put in a surprising amount of hours.   

I would suggest CTO days (not sure what it stands for) but your chain of command doesn't seem to care very much.

For us if we work a Tuesday and Thursday night we get one day a week off. Even with that day a week off we put in a weekend or two sometimes.  In January I think 3 out of 4 weekends we have something going on.

Some of the bigger units have their regular force members working Monday to Friday 8 to 4 and don't have them come in for admin/training nights or out on weekend ex's.

then again the rss staff are pulling in 15% more than their reserve day staff counter parts


----------



## Journeyman (23 Oct 2011)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> CTO days (not sure what it stands for)


Compensatory Time Off


----------



## Monsoon (23 Oct 2011)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Compensatory Time Off


...which actually isn't a concept formally recognized by the CF/DND (it's not in the Leave Manual). The direction the OP should look is towards the well-entrenched concept (in the public service) of a flexible working schedule - i.e. putting in 40 hours a week according to a non-traditional schedule based on the operational requirements of the unit. Day staff could tailor their weekly schedules so that there was coverage 8am to 4pm Monday to Friday, without all of them having to be there all the time.

If only there were an NRD 300km or so up-river from the OP that were doing exactly that...


----------



## mariomike (23 Oct 2011)

"T & Th: 1900 to 2200 (6 hours)
There's not a company in the world that would recognize his schedule as 55 hours for the purposes of overtime."

That would be paid as 12 hours where I used to work.


----------



## Monsoon (23 Oct 2011)

mariomike said:
			
		

> "T & Th: 1900 to 2200 (6 hours)
> There's not a company in the world that would recognize his schedule as 55 hours for the purposes of overtime."
> 
> That would be paid as 12 hours where I used to work.


Mike, the reason you and Bruce are paid that way for longer shifts is because the nature of your work is such that even slightly longer days impose exponentially more hardship than regular ones. I've been full time staff at an NRD, and I can say with confidence that it doesn't compare to EMT or Corrections work in that way.


----------



## wesleyd (23 Oct 2011)

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> I am assuming you are a PO1/PO2 (I did the same job at an NRD too). Figure something out, talk to the RegF LCdr and TELL him your plan. I had an ugly confrontation myself with my NRD's XO but in the end, all were happy and there was no disrespect. What's the saying?: You can be happy, or you can be right.


Hey Pat, right now there are no Reg Force in the command team. I am not saying that I don't want to put the time in but I would like some time to my family and myself. Right now reg force are expected to be there for every unit event even though we may not be directly involved with it. I feel that working in a building that is staffed primarily by part timers should not be more stressful or time consuming than being in charge of a section while steaming EOOW at sea. 
 I have spoken with a few other NRD's and they seem to be using CTO, even though it is not a real thing, to compensate for the extra hours. I will be going to NAVRESHQ next month and will ask around to see if there may be any type of policy on this matter. I get the feeling though that it is one of those CO's discretion things.


----------



## wesleyd (23 Oct 2011)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> My liver wouldn't be doing too good if there was more than one Saturday a week  ;D



Typo one saturday a month


----------



## wesleyd (23 Oct 2011)

Occam said:
			
		

> I think what the OP meant was that the Command Team works Mon/Wed/Sat but are not being sympathetic to the dayworking RSS who works the straight days as well as the training hours.  If they have civvie jobs during the day (which they're getting paid for) as well as their reserve Class A hours (which they're getting paid for), then they're not exactly being fair expecting the RSS to put in all these hours just because they're salaried.
> 
> I too would recommend that you take a casual survey of your brethren in the RSS positions at the NRDs across the country.  Something doesn't sound right.


I have been talking with a few they appear to be using CTO for the evening and weekends. Which is fair, I think.


----------



## Zoomie (23 Oct 2011)

wesleyd said:
			
		

> I have been talking with a few they appear to be using CTO for the evening and weekends. Which is fair, I think.


This is how most PRes units work


----------



## Harris (23 Oct 2011)

wesleyd said:
			
		

> I have been talking with a few they appear to be using CTO for the evening and weekends. Which is fair, I think.



Agreed, this is fair, but just be aware it is not a requirement.  As was mentioned above a bit, CTO is not an official leave.  Units get away with using it nearly everywhere I've even been but it's at the CO's discretion.  CO's are "supposed" to use short leave to compensate pers.  Short leave is however limited to 2 days per month maximum.


----------



## wesleyd (23 Oct 2011)

"Bingo. Don't tell me the extra $250 a month you get as sea pay makes the difference for the extra working hours; you put those hours in because you believe in your job and because everyone understands it to be normal. The real problem here is that you arrived at your new unit believing that you were being sent on a "lifestyle" posting that would let you spend lots of time with your family, etc, etc, so expectations were out of whack with the realities of the job. Not your fault - I wish the "facts of life" for Reg F staff sent to support NRDs were better communicated to the people being posted in so they could decide if they're willing to make the commitment in advance of the posting."
It was more like 748/month. And it does make the time a little more bearable. I believe in my job regardless of where I work. I don't mind the commitment I just get the impression that the mentality is we are reg force and should be be available and at work seven days a week 24/7. I can get all the work done in the normal work week. The people who come in from other jobs are compensated for that time. I feel that I should be as well; don't even get me started on Class B folks who can't come in because there contract says they can't. I don't expect to be off at noon every day but I do expect to be home before suppertime and for the week ends. Not marching around some town in the middle of nowhere  on a Sunday or holiday that everyone else around me is getting paid to do while I am expected to be at work the next day. I have done over 7 years at sea. Not seven years sea time seven straight years that I have been away from home. At sea you have a specific mission that you commit 110% to succeed. The NRD although dedicated uses the term operational commitment for everything be it a parade where you march or a parade with floats and the like. The building doesn't sail, the NRD is there to augment the fleet. On the ship I had 12 people working directly for me along with being in charge of the plant while at sea and boarding party duties. I always managed to get PER's any PM and any other work done withing an 0800-1500 hrs day alongside and if anyone was required to stay past that they were always compensated through CTO. While at sea for long periods you have foreign ports to break that up which are generally sunday routines, except for us stokers, unless you were duty. 
I will take your advice though and work out a schedule and present it up the chain to see what happens. After talking with several NRD's though the one I am at seems to be the exception to what is considered normal at other units.
Thanks


----------



## Pusser (23 Oct 2011)

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> Not to beat a dead horse here (I've already said what I needed to, which is just to approach the problem with comprehensive staff work), but the OP isn't really working 55 hours a week. Here's how the schedule looks in reality:
> 
> M - F: 0800 to 1600 (40 hours)
> T & Th: 1900 to 2200 (6 hours)
> ...



I call BS!  What the OP is describing is wrong - VERY wrong and accounting sophistry doesn't make it right.  He IS entitled to his time off and expecting him to work extra hours while pointing out "duty 24/7" or "15% more" is total BS.  In my old reserve unit, the RSS came in on training nights, but they also got time off during the week.  You don't have to call it CTO, you can call it shift work, where shifts vary in length, depending on the day.  

As an aside, if you do work from 0800 to 2200 (full day in the office plus the training night) you are entitled to supper at public expense (actual and reasonable costs up the daily rate for supper - provide there's no mess available).  Maybe after filing a few $30+ claims, your CO may change his tune.  See CFAO 36-14.


----------



## Monsoon (24 Oct 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> I call BS!  What the OP is describing is wrong - VERY wrong and accounting sophistry doesn't make it right.  He IS entitled to his time off and expecting him to work extra hours while pointing out "duty 24/7" or "15% more" is total BS.


I think you'll find the class "B" staff work the same schedule as the Reg F staff at the OP's unit. (I'm also a bit surprised that a Logistics officer would regard "subtraction" as "sophistry". Are you free to manage my budget by any chance?  ;D)



> As an aside, if you do work from 0800 to 2200 (full day in the office plus the training night) you are entitled to supper at public expense (actual and reasonable costs up the daily rate for supper - provide there's no mess available).  Maybe after filing a few $30+ claims, your CO may change his tune.  See CFAO 36-14.


A good point - but that's an entitlement he can claim regardless of whether he's compensated with time off for the evening hours or not.


----------



## Pusser (24 Oct 2011)

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> I think you'll find the class "B" staff work the same schedule as the Reg F staff at the OP's unit. (I'm also a bit surprised that a Logistics officer would regard "subtraction" as "sophistry". Are you free to manage my budget by any chance?  ;D)
> A good point - but that's an entitlement he can claim regardless of whether he's compensated with time off for the evening hours or not.



The sophistry comes from subtracting time  as "non-work time" simply because the member is not at his/her desk.  Most CF units work 0800-1600 (i.e. eight hours) and take an hour for lunch.  Furthermore, PT time is work time (operational/job requirement to maintain a level of fitness) and should not be deducted either.


----------



## Monsoon (24 Oct 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> The sophistry comes from subtracting time  as "non-work time" simply because the member is not at his/her desk.  Most CF units work 0800-1600 (i.e. eight hours) and take an hour for lunch.


...and this one does not (unless the OP is successfully able to staff a request to try a different approach).



> Furthermore, PT time is work time (operational/job requirement to maintain a level of fitness) and should not be deducted either.


Sure, bringing the total number of work hours up to 41. I just wanted to point out to the OP that this is something he can be doing on company time, if he's not already. If he's putting in his long week and going to the gym on his own time, this in effect "saves" him 2.5 hours.

Anyway - wesleyd, I've sent you a PM that will probably give you a good way forward. I'm not going to keep fighting a rearguard action against the "this isn't what I'd do for MY people" crowd, because frankly I agree with them. Just be aware that your command team is empowered to ask what they're asking of you and that they have some arguments in their favour that you'll encounter. The opinions of people who aren't them don't matter in this case, so make sure you approach this in a way that will convince them to change their minds, rather than try to force them with the overwhelming power of what other people think.


----------



## Jarnhamar (24 Oct 2011)

Stress leave for a month followed by half days for 2 
Make sure you take afternoons off though so you can get your hour and a half  'on your own time' PT in during the morning


----------



## CountDC (24 Oct 2011)

A normal work day by time keeping standards for Reg F and full time Res is 7 hours (35 per week, at least it was when I did time keeping). That is of course taking into account 1 hour for lunch which in the normal world is usually not paid time. Anything more than that and the member is being required to work extra time.  A decent unit will recognize and schedule time off accordingly.  Seems you unfortunately did not get one of those.

We used to have a schedule that enabled the office to be manned at all hours of unit operation.

One unit we had staff that worked Mon to Fri regular hours.  The Sgt worked Mon - Thu days, Thu Evenings plus at least one weekend per month. The MCpl worked Tue-Fri days, Tue Evenings plus at least one weekend per month.  Cl A staff worked Tue/Thu evenings plus the work weekends each month.

Another Unit we worked an off set schedule on Tue and Thu, starting later in the day.  Time off for weekends were up to the supervisor and we always worked something out. 

Unfortunately I also had a unit similar to yours - Mon to Fri plus Tue/Thu evenings and weekends.   

Good luck in finding a workable solution - hopefully it does work out for you.  I have a feeling though that you are at a unit that wants the warm body there just for the sake of having the warm body there regardless of work load.

I vote for Grimaldus suggestion.


----------



## Haggis (24 Oct 2011)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Compensatory Time Off



CTO = undocumented Short Leave.  Many units give out CTO weekly to cover off working two nights a week plus weekends, to an extent where it *exceeds the entitlement* for Short Leave as described in the CF Leave Policy Manual:

"9.1.01 Policy
The purpose of short leave is to provide a member of the Regular Force or of the Reserve Force on Class "B" or "C" reserve service with time away from their duties to:
• Compensate, in part, for long hours worked during extended periods of operations/training or working on normal days of rest;
• Provide members with time away from their duties to conduct urgent personal business; or
• Reward exemplary work.

9.1.02 Reckoning time
Short leave is reckoned in hours to a maximum of 48 hours.

9.1.03 Approval authority
The CO may grant short leave.

9.1.04 Limitations
Short Leave shall not be granted:
• *More often than once in each month*;
• For a period in excess of 48 hours;
• Consecutively with another period of short leave; and
• In conjunction with retirement leave."


----------



## Journeyman (24 Oct 2011)

For clarity, I was just spelling out the acronym in response to a question. I have no particular dog in this fight.


----------



## gcclarke (24 Oct 2011)

I heartily disagree with the assessment of CTO as a form of "undocumented short leave". It's instead a re-jigging of the member's wrok schedule such that any days that are scheduled to be a CTO are not considered to be part of the member's working days, defined in the leave manual as: 



> Working days means those days within a week on which work is normally scheduled for the member by the member's Commanding Officer.



Treating it as a form of shift work is most appropriate. The leave manual also specifies how Commanding Officers should be scheduling their shift workers, emphasis mine:



> 2.8.01 Scheduling
> Shift workers may follow a schedule that differs from a Monday to Friday working week but it is a schedule nonetheless. In scheduling the working days of a shift worker, the CO is responsible for specifically identifying both the working and non-working days *so as to ensure that an equivalent amount of time off for weekends and statutory holidays is provided to shift workers as is provided to CF members working a Monday to Friday working week.*



Anyhow, I agree that this particular scenario is definitely fishy.


----------



## mariomike (25 Oct 2011)

CountDC said:
			
		

> That is of course taking into account 1 hour for lunch which in the normal world is usually not paid time.



Many workers remain on duty throughout their shift. Shifts are 12 hours for some jobs. They receive a 30 minute paid lunch break.
They call it a "running lunch: "Running Lunch shall not be interpreted as a sit-down lunch, but a lunch to be eaten when conditions permit."


----------



## chrisf (25 Oct 2011)

Aside from a few part time minimum wage jobs, I have yet to have an employer who doesn't pay for a lunch break, of course, 40 hours per week with a paid 1hr break, or 35 with an unpaid break, still works out to the same working hours....


----------



## wesleyd (25 Oct 2011)

Starting to make some headway with this issue. One of the sticking points is that keeps arising is the argument that Class A pers that come in do not get time off there regular job. My argument is that they are compensated by being paid while they are in during their off time. I also raise argument that if they did not get paid how many would eagerly attend the evening events.


----------



## wesleyd (25 Oct 2011)

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> Not to beat a dead horse here (I've already said what I needed to, which is just to approach the problem with comprehensive staff work), but the OP isn't really working 55 hours a week. Here's how the schedule looks in reality:
> 
> M - F: 0800 to 1600 (40 hours)
> T & Th: 1900 to 2200 (6 hours)
> ...


OK how about when you are operational. 24/7 for up to 8 months. Are they going to pay overtime for that?


----------



## Snaketnk (25 Oct 2011)

wesleyd said:
			
		

> OK how about when you are operational. 24/7 for up to 8 months. Are they going to pay overtime for that?



I don't care what the regs are, this is a silly argument. On tour you're doing work that's usually vitally important (in a small or a big way) to the mission at hand and indirectly the lives of Canadians. To equate THAT with sitting in an office at a reserve unit with no work to do "just because" is rubbish.

I'm firmly of the belief that you show up, do the work that needs to be done and be present for the things you need to be present and then GO HOME. But I'm a Cpl. 

EDIT: I seem to have mis-interpreted the intent of that message, I didn't fully register who the author was. My apologies.


----------



## mariomike (25 Oct 2011)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Aside from a few part time minimum wage jobs, I have yet to have an employer who doesn't pay for a lunch break, of course, 40 hours per week with a paid 1hr break, or 35 with an unpaid break, still works out to the same working hours....



I worked for a corporation with 53,000 employees. "Inside" ( office ) workers were paid 35 hours per week, with a one hour unpaid "out of service" lunch every eight hours.

I was classified as an "outside" worker and therefore paid 40 hours per week, with a paid 30 minute "running" lunch 
( between the 4th and 7.5 hours ) every twelve hour shift. *
* Edit to add ( Late / interrupted / missed meal breaks have always been typical for the job. However, there is now a negotiated practice of meal purchase allowances and overtime payments / penalties. )

Same employer, but different lunch policies for the inside versus outside workers.


----------



## Monsoon (26 Oct 2011)

wesleyd said:
			
		

> OK how about when you are operational. 24/7 for up to 8 months. Are they going to pay overtime for that?


All compensated through the extraordinarily generous pay, benefits, and vacation package that we enjoy throughout our entire careers whether deployed or not, and further compensated by tax-free status, hardship allowances, etc while on deployment (and, of course, the privilege to serve). It is not, however, compensated with an unspoken understanding that people won't ask us to put in a full week when posted ashore or to a ship alongside (which will, of course, represent the overwhelming majority of most people's careers). Not to diminish the legitimacy of your current concern, hard work when deployed elsewhere doesn't count towards an on-going, low-level vacation the rest of the time.


----------



## Journeyman (26 Oct 2011)

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> All compensated through the extraordinarily generous pay, benefits, and vacation package that we enjoy throughout our entire careers whether deployed or not, and further compensated by tax-free status, hardship allowances, etc while on deployment (and, of course, the privilege to serve). It is not, however, compensated with an unspoken understanding that people won't ask us to put in a full week when posted ashore or to a ship alongside (which will, of course, represent the overwhelming majority of most people's careers). Not to diminish the legitimacy of your current concern, hard work when deployed elsewhere doesn't count towards an on-going, low-level vacation the rest of the time.


 :goodpost:

But you _did_ say that you were going to bow out because 'common sense' wasn't a factor.......


----------



## Stoker (26 Oct 2011)

The RSS staff at most of the NAVRES units are intergal to the running of the unit. I do believe the OP is a stoker and part of his duties are usually the building mgr. Quite a few units like the building mgr around when the building is actually open for example training nights. 
As well most NAVRES units do not have a lot of senior people there in the engineering department and often look to the expertise of the reg force stoker there again during training nights. How about volunteering to come in on training nights and actually mentor the young MESO's there? This way it might be more palatable to your COC to allow you time off.
From what I can see you are are posted to a unit where the COC relies of their regular force personnel and expects max participation.
If I can give any advice to you is still work the CTO angle, don't burn your bridges and if that doesn't work do your 3 years and get posted back to the coast.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (26 Oct 2011)

I have been out a very  long time and was a full time reservist for over 5 years and have worked in the Reg Force world and the Res Force world during my  various call outs.
At the Army HQ there was no CTO or any  time off given in my section to equal out the time we spent doing the Res Parade nights at the HQ, it was Thursday  night from 1900 till 2230 every  week and one weekend a month. Other sections were given CTO or time off to do admin, my  section was not given any, it was up the section commander to decide if CTO was given ( I worked in a section where I was the only  person who did my  trade and was told it was part of the job, deal  with or I would be replaced. My  opinion was of that  I was a FIN clk in ADM clk world and did not know what  I did, thought I was Adm clerk who did not do typing or other Adm work, but they  could nto do a travel claim if they  tried). 
When I was tasked to work at the Res Regiment, I was told my  work day started at  0700 for PT Tuesday to Friday  till 1600 
On parade nights I was expected in my  office for 1900 till 2200 ( usually had to do some paper work and set up the sign in location so I started at 1830 )two times a week, Tuesdays and Fridays, plus training weekends, at least one a month. To make up for this extra time I was given Mondays off, which was great since I lived in barracks, I had full use of both washers and dryers during the day , could get all my  kit cleaned and ready  for the week coming.  I ended up working more weekends as the COs driver but he made up the extra time by  giving me short leave , or telling me to fill out a leave pass but it would only  count if I was hurt or something else came out.  When I came back off this unoffical leave the pass would be tossed and  the days off would be forgotten about as if they  never took place.
I have worked in both worlds and the Mondays off each week were great but not every  CO would be as willing to do that.


----------



## Pusser (26 Oct 2011)

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> All compensated through the extraordinarily generous pay, benefits, and vacation package that we enjoy throughout our entire careers whether deployed or not, and further compensated by tax-free status, hardship allowances, etc while on deployment (and, of course, the privilege to serve). It is not, however, compensated with an unspoken understanding that people won't ask us to put in a full week when posted ashore or to a ship alongside  (which will, of course, represent the overwhelming majority of most people's careers). Not to diminish the legitimacy of your current concern, hard work when deployed elsewhere doesn't count towards an on-going, low-level vacation the rest of the time.



The OP is not in any way asking for additional time off or an easy ride.  His beef is that he feels he is being asked to do *more* than his fair share and I agree with him.  It's perfectly OK to expect him to be at the unit on training nights and on training weekends, but at the same time, he should be allowed to not report for duty until noon on those weekdays that he has to stay on for the evenings.  He should also be allowed days off during the week to account for lost weekends.  The only thing unreasonable about this request is its denial.

On the pay issue, I will concede that it is generous, but it is by no means extraordinary.  Furthermore, very little time at sea is ever compensated with a tax-free allowance.  The tax-free allowances only apply to a limited number of operations.  Sailors can spend years at sea drawing only Sea Duty Allowance, which is fully taxable.  In all of my approximately 738 days at sea, not one of them was tax-free.


----------



## Stoker (26 Oct 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> The OP is not in any way asking for additional time off or an easy ride.  His beef is that he feels he is being asked to do *more* than his fair share and I agree with him.  It's perfectly OK to expect him to be at the unit on training nights and on training weekends, but at the same time, he should be allowed to not report for duty until noon on those weekdays that he has to stay on for the evenings.  He should also be allowed days off during the week to account for lost weekends.  The only thing unreasonable about this request is its denial.



Sometimes you don't get extra time off. In my trade we often have to work late while everyone has gone home and have to work in foregin port when some piece of gear breaks down. Its the nature of the trade. A lot of times we don't get compensated, its nice when we do but its not expected.
I sympathize with the OP that its not fair and he maybe won't be able to get this changed. If he feels that strongly call the CM and see if the posting can be changed, I'm sure he will have lots of volunteers.


----------



## Pusser (26 Oct 2011)

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Sometimes you don't get extra time off. In my trade we often have to work late while everyone has gone home and have to work in foregin port when some piece of gear breaks down. Its the nature of the trade. A lot of times we don't get compensated, its nice when we do but its not expected.
> I sympathize with the OP that its not fair and he maybe won't be able to get this changed. If he feels that strongly call the CM and see if the posting can be changed, I'm sure he will have lots of volunteers.



There's a difference between working extra time in order to meet an operational requirement and working(?) extra time because someone feels it necessary to be present (vice doing anything constructive).


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (26 Oct 2011)

Pusser, obviously we have lots of folk who aren't smart enough to make that distinction.................


----------



## Monsoon (26 Oct 2011)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Pusser, obviously we have lots of folk who aren't smart enough to make that distinction.................


He's not making widgets in a factory, he's providing a leadership, acting as a primary point of contact and serving as a resource for mostly everything. My least favourite aspect of returning to class "A" life was fielding phone calls and email at my civilian job from people at HQ and other units who couldn't reach the full-time staff at my unit because they were on leave/taking CTO/at the bank/picking up their daughter early from school because obviously their spouse (who had a "real" job) couldn't do that/etc. 90% of reserve unit life is being there when someone's trying to reach you.

I'm sure if the OP staffs up a solution that mitigates for this effect by making sure there's coverage by a senior day staff member who's prepared to put out fires related to his colleague's portfolios at all times during the work week, then he'll be able to effect the change he's looking for.


----------



## MARS (26 Oct 2011)

wesleyd, where is your Staff Officer on this?  (Or Training Officer or XO - whoever the full-time, RegF or Class B officer is at your unit)  That person is your DivO and should be the conduit to Command here.  There should be between 9 and 11 full-time staff at your Unit.  All of them - including the Staff Officer - should be subject to these same expectations.  Is this an issue among the entire day staff?  If not, why not?  How are they mitigating these requirements?  Unless your personal circumstances are so unique that they don't apply to the rest of the staff, this shouldn't be falling all on your to resolve.

Regards,

MARS


----------



## wesleyd (31 Oct 2011)

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> The RSS staff at most of the NAVRES units are intergal to the running of the unit. I do believe the OP is a stoker and part of his duties are usually the building mgr. Quite a few units like the building mgr around when the building is actually open for example training nights.
> As well most NAVRES units do not have a lot of senior people there in the engineering department and often look to the expertise of the reg force stoker there again during training nights. How about volunteering to come in on training nights and actually mentor the young MESO's there? This way it might be more palatable to your COC to allow you time off.
> From what I can see you are are posted to a unit where the COC relies of their regular force personnel and expects max participation.
> If I can give any advice to you is still work the CTO angle, don't burn your bridges and if that doesn't work do your 3 years and get posted back to the coast.


I do come in on every training night, and mentor when I can if there is people there to do so.


----------



## wesleyd (31 Oct 2011)

First thanks for the replies and points of view. We have reached an understanding at the unit now regarding day staff and Reg force. And it appears to be fair , I think, to everyone. It has command support so that is the main thing. I really enjoy working at this unit and don't want to spend the next 3/4 years arguing about this.
We have formulated that for training evenings we can accumulate the hours up to 48 hrs and take up to 2 days short per month, as per leave manual and CSO's. In addition if we have admin to do the day after a training admin night we can take up to two hours for that without any paperwork. For the monthly training Saturday we can take one of the short days as well. And if we have any admin to do our HOD's are able to grant the time to do so accordingly. We also have 1 hour per day of PT during working hours that can be used at anytime to allow the offices to be staffed at all times. I think that this is the most fair outcome of the situation. I understand that Reserves are part time and that when they come in for training they need to get the most value out of that short window of training time they have. I fully support the unit and give 110% at all times. For example I even taught for the forenoon this week end. Even though this is not in my scope of responsibilities as the facility manager I do enjoy it and like to pass on any knowledge I have gained throughout the years bobbing around on the ocean.
Thanks again everyone the insight is appreciated.


----------



## Stoker (31 Oct 2011)

wesleyd said:
			
		

> I do come in on every training night, and mentor when I can if there is people there to do so.



Sounds like you have everything straightened out and my hat goes to you for helping out in the engineering department. Some of the units do not have that kind of expertise.


----------



## Hotwire (28 Nov 2012)

Good morning,

As I am RSS, and have been for 3 years now. A Lot of things have come to light to me in regards to this job and its duties. Previously my understanding was that RSS was a sort of mentoring and "Fill in" role. Meaning, that the RSS would help develop the troops in the unit, Keeping a state of equilibrium, And filling in for the duties where the CoC (In both directions). Now that I have been doing this job for so long, the realization as to just what RSS means to the RES Units. None of what I thought I new was true.

-We're used as GD's
-We're expected to do the job of EVERY soldier in EVERY rank level
-We're held responsible for the short comings
-We're to give recognition to the member we replaced for the good job we did
-We're held to the highest standard and given the highest of expectations
-Our "Equal" Res Counter part(s) do not seem to be held to ANY standard or any expectation
-Our admin is the lowest in priority (Iv seen promotions lost due to bad Res. admin)

Maybe Its just me, maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree, or just in the wrong unit. 

You tell me!


----------



## Michael OLeary (28 Nov 2012)

Just like in the Regular Force, not every unit is the same. You are taking about your views and experiences from only one end of a very broad spectrum.


----------



## Hotwire (28 Nov 2012)

I'm sure your right, Hence why I asked if I was just in the wrong unit. I'm guessing, circumstances, and positions also dictate in regards to these issues as well.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (28 Nov 2012)

It would appear Mr O'Leary put the whole thing in a nutshell for you.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (28 Nov 2012)

Back in the 80’s the RSS gave stability to the unit and dealt with the day to day issues. They all took part in tasks as required due to the small number of RSS and Class B (3x RSS and 2x Class b on average). The RSS mentored soldiers within their rank structure and helped individuals with postings and tasks. I would say that 90% of the RSS staff I met were excellent and important to both myself and the unit. Not everyone is cut out to be RSS staff and it requires a unique skill set.


----------



## Hotwire (28 Nov 2012)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Back in the 80’s the RSS gave stability to the unit and dealt with the day to day issues. They all took part in tasks as required due to the small number of RSS and Class B (3x RSS and 2x Class b on average). The RSS mentored soldiers within their rank structure and helped individuals with postings and tasks. I would say that 90% of the RSS staff I met were excellent and important to both myself and the unit. Not everyone is cut out to be RSS staff and it requires a unique skill set.



It most definatly is an aquiered taste, and a special skill set. Dealing with day to day issues, mentoring, helping, and taking part in tasks is one thing. And NOT an issue. Its the fact that during the week, my Coy is one deep, Me. All threw out the year we (Being the Unit) are offering A-Class work. How ever, the picking and choosing is rediculous. And after 3 years of unwaivering fortitude to do these jobs, without question, We have a new CO. Who's new policies and trg calander prevent most of the FTUC staff from getting time off. And In the event that a day IS taken, we are berated on the parade nights about loyalty, dedication, and profesionalism.. or our lack there of. This goes for Pre- and Post-Ex drills. They all want to have fun on the weekend, yet no one is willing to come in to setup, or after to tear down. Its the FTUC that are left to do the eintire BN's dirty work, But the COY CSM's Get gold stars for making it happen. enough is enough.

Again, This is from one point of view.


----------



## daftandbarmy (28 Nov 2012)

Hotwire said:
			
		

> It most definatly is an aquiered taste, and a special skill set. Dealing with day to day issues, mentoring, helping, and taking part in tasks is one thing. And NOT an issue. Its the fact that during the week, my Coy is one deep, Me. All threw out the year we (Being the Unit) are offering A-Class work. How ever, the picking and choosing is rediculous. And after 3 years of unwaivering fortitude to do these jobs, without question, We have a new CO. Who's new policies and trg calander prevent most of the FTUC staff from getting time off. And In the event that a day IS taken, we are berated on the parade nights about loyalty, dedication, and profesionalism.. or our lack there of. This goes for Pre- and Post-Ex drills. They all want to have fun on the weekend, yet no one is willing to come in to setup, or after to tear down. Its the FTUC that are left to do the eintire BN's dirty work, But the COY CSM's Get gold stars for making it happen. enough is enough.
> 
> Again, This is from one point of view.



Can you approach your CO and explain your concerns honestly and openly and get a fair hearing? 

If not, and you fear that your staff will continue to get the short straw with collaterally adverse impacts on unit performance, there's a chain of command for a reason. Don't treat us any different from any other part of the Army.... please!!!


----------



## Cardstonkid (28 Nov 2012)

I think most RSS are over tasked, especially the MCpl's and Sgt's, there is just to much for a unit to do, and no ability to do it, unless the RSS get it done. I suspect this to be a pretty common feature of many Reserve units. 

I know many RSS feel overburdened, unappreciated, and unsupported by those they are tasked to serve.

Sometimes, there is a tendency in a unit to have an "us vs them" attitude with regards to the Class A and the RSS / Class B. 

As a Class A, I see this at times, and I get where it comes from on both sides, but it isn't healthy and will get a unit nowhere quickly.

The Reserves are under tremendous strain. From what I have seen, most units out west are losing more than they are recruiting. Many of the class A leadership are burned out, and there is no simple way to create leadership that is so vitally needed. The result is that the RSS, out of necessity pick up the slack, and try to keep the gong show running. 

I appreciate the long hours of work and commitment of the RSS staff. It is a unique job, that is a lot more the a 9-5 seven day a week responsibility. It is a service that requires a good attitude, the patience of Jobe, and the tolerance of Ghandi. 

Remember the Class A guy who is showing up regularly may not have had a day off this month, he may get grumpy, and maybe a bit envious of the Reg force guys, but in the end, us class A guys know that without the RSS there would be no Reserves. 

Good luck, these will be challenging days ahead for the Reserves, especially the RSS.


----------



## Remius (28 Nov 2012)

Well having been full time staff at a unit as well as working closely with RSS I have seen both extremes.  Some really switched on people and some craptacular rejects.  I know at my unit, they wnated to keep the the class B reserve OPS officer and OPS WO but were told that no, they were posting in two reg force types as they were reg force positions.  The ones there now are doing good work, go out on ex etc.  Their expertise and contacts are definitly an asset.

As far as our CC is concerned we've never been able to keep them long enough.  They either take stress leave or ask to be posted out.  many attempts have been made to make the CC a class B position since our class B guys and girls seem to know how to run the OR.  

We also have an RSS that brings a wealth of experience and qualifications to the QM without who everything would be ten times harder given our unit supporting several brigade klevel activities, courses etc.

With some creativity, class A guys, CTO and short leave, the unit attempts to balance as much of the workload as possible.  A lot of this came as result of those concerned, using the CoC to effect change.

It isn't perfect.  But it can be better.


----------



## Hotwire (28 Nov 2012)

thank you all for the insight. 

Pursuing this up the chain... Both the OPs O and OPs WO have spoken to the CO. So have the Adj, and the Padre. Its his vision, and he is keeping it. We try to swing things, and make it run. But it is a rough time. Its made us few FTUC (6 of us) learn to work together, at all rank levels and to give and take equally.


----------



## FJAG (28 Nov 2012)

My tour as an RSSO was in the late 70s and it was a great experience primarily because I was given clear and concise terms of reference as to what my job was. 

The TOR was the following: "If there is some reservist who knows how to do a given job, let him do it; if there is no one doing the job but there is a reservist who is prepared to do it then teach him how and let him get on with the job; if there is no reservist who knows how to do the job or wants to do it then get it done yourself."

Just as an aside, the unit had some twenty-five reports and returns to file annually. I adopted an attitude that I would only file the ones where someone actually cared enough to send me a hastener asking where the report was. There were only three of those. Why do we bury the leadership of these units with the very few paid days they get with a mess of useless paper to shuffle around?


----------



## Eye In The Sky (28 Nov 2012)

Does the RSS Officer still mostly fill out the pos of Adjt and not confer with the Bde G3 anymore?  It was another way I saw where concerns could be discussed, with the G3 having access to the HQ CO/COS.   :2c:


----------



## Hotwire (28 Nov 2012)

Our OPs O and Adj are two different people. The OPs O is Reg Force, and the Adj is a B-Class Res. and only for the next few weeks at that.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (28 Nov 2012)

Roger.  However, more importantly, does the RSS Officer have regular comm's with the Bde G3?  I ask because the Bde HQ I was at in yester-year, the RSS O had access to the G3 ( Reg Force Major), the G3 had access to the Bde HQ CO/CO ( Reg Force LCol).   I think the rest is obvious.


----------



## cupper (28 Nov 2012)

I see that your title says Gun Plumber. Are you currently working as support staff in a maintenance unit or higher level?


----------



## Michael OLeary (28 Nov 2012)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Roger.  However, more importantly, does the RSS Officer have regular comm's with the Bde G3?  I ask because the Bde HQ I was at in yester-year, the RSS O had access to the G3 ( Reg Force Major), the G3 had access to the Bde HQ CO/CO ( Reg Force LCol).   I think the rest is obvious.



No, the Commissar system was dismantled when the RFC were taken into the unit chain of command.


----------



## Tank Troll (28 Nov 2012)

My RSS Captain is both Adj and OPs O he converse with the Bgde G3 and his shop regularly along with the rest of the Bdge staff, as does my RSS Sgt that is in the OPs WO postion.


----------



## Michael OLeary (28 Nov 2012)

What Eye is talking about is the "old days" when the RSS were in a separate chain of command. The discussions he's referring to were the RSS receiving direction from District Staff Officers/Area COSs and using that chain in parallel with the Unit/Disrict (Bde)/Area chain of command. The down side is the RSS could get trapped between two non-convergent intents for their employment.


----------



## Tank Troll (29 Nov 2012)

Ahh. Other than the Royal's Mafia yeah not some much any more.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (29 Nov 2012)

Some "form" of it existed between 02-06, informally atleast.


----------



## Ostrozac (21 May 2013)

I have received a heads up that my next posting is likely an RSS position. Now, I am in the unfortunate position of not only having limited and dated knowledge of the reserves, but also that none of my peers in my current unit have served in RSS positions. I used the search engine, and while there is much explanation on this site of what life is like as a reservist, there is little discussion of the role of the RSS in the whole process.

I did serve in a reserve combat arms unit in the 90's, briefly, before joining the reg force, but my memories of US rain jackets, AVGPs and militia districts is, I know, quite dated. I don't even remember the difference between Class B and Class B (A)!

Does anyone with Regular Support Staff experience have any lessons learned or observations about the job that they would like to share?


----------



## PuckChaser (21 May 2013)

Solely depends on your unit. But as an extreme model I've seen RSS expected to work all week, most weekends, every Thursday night and then pick up all the assigned summer teaching jobs that none of the Cl A pers will touch with a 10 ft pole. Your mileage may vary though.


----------



## Tetragrammaton (22 May 2013)

As stated, it depends on the type of unit and to an extent which RSS position you are going into.

Generally, the difference between Class B and BA is the duration of the contract, with Class BA being for permanent positions and typically 3 years.  Its important to know that the full-time staff of a typical reserve unit is only 6-7 personnel (RSS = Adjutant. Chief clerk, QM Sgt/MCpl, Ops WO; Cl-BA = Finance Sgt, RMS clerk, one other Cl-BA in various positions). This means that various tasks and jobs, that are outside of what is defined by your position end up in your in-box. While part-time class A pers are called in for various work during the week, when this doesn't happen, it invariably falls to the full-time staff.  Things are made that much more difficult if there are vacancies in the full-time positions. 

The reserves train most weekends and one local training night per week, so the full-time staff (RSS and permanent reservists) are, quite logically, expected to be there. This does not however imply that you will be required to attend every LHQ night and training weekend. Depends on the nature of the training and your role at the unit. I would assume most employing units realize that working any member 60+ hours will simply lead to a eventual burn-out. Often if required to work a weekend, the full-time staff is given the Monday off. Not a 1:1 return but better than nothing. 

In my perspective, I've seen a lot of RSS staff over the last few years and the one's who were truly miserable were because they simply didn't want to be there. Often this was their last posting and they were counting the days until retirement, didn't want to work weekends or Tuesday nights, and couldn't see any personal benefit in working with the reserves. The chief clerks realize quickly that the admin is a little different, the quartermaster staff realize they have little support staff and that the supply job in a reserve unit is very different from what they may have done before. The adjutants probably have the least difficulty transitioning to working for the reserves.  

Communication with the chain of command is key and would likely resolve most problems in most cases.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (22 May 2013)

Tetragrammaton said:
			
		

> The adjutants probably have the least difficulty transitioning to working for the reserves.



I am not sure I agree with this;  with a Cl A CO, the Adjt position can be extremely busy, handling day-to-day stuff with Bde, etc.  The other key positions (eg Regt 2 I/C, Regt Ops O, etc) are also mostly Cl A.  The Adjt quickly become more than "just" the Adjt in some cases (I'd like to sat "most" based on what I'd seen in my Res time).  I also recall the RSS Os being tasked with a handful of secondary duties, such as U Sec O.  If they had a hat-rack, it would have needed quite a few hooks, IMO.

Also, I've seen Adjt's double-hatted with the duties above within RHQ *_and_* farmed out to the F Ech as well, as Battle Captain, etc during the Trg year...only to be sent to the MTSC/LFA TC/*insert name of TE* for the summer trg cycle....then onto the ARCON...repeat cycle. 

Some CO's have recognized the hard work and amount of hours RSS folks put in on the Armouries floor and given them CTOs/Shorts/etc and I've also seen others not do it.  I spent a few years at a CBG HQ and attended more than 1 COS and/or Bde Comd O Gps where these issues were brought up, resulting in direction from HHQ to COs.


----------



## Milhouser911 (26 Sep 2017)

Good afternoon everyone. 

I'm a reg force member in a reserve CSS posting, looking to wrap my head around the idea of coming in for Thursday night training nights after a regular day's work.  This is mostly smoke-pit chatter, since I understand that the powers that be will administer it however they choose, but for my own entertainment I'd like to know if this concept has any weight.

Regular working hours are 0900-1600, and we must return to work from 1900-2200.  It seems to me that this would clearly constitute "irregular hours", or possibly a return call to work.  The way I understand it, this would necessitate either a meal (if we were working the entire time) OR mileage for the second trip to work.  The CFDTI is a little short on definitions, so it's definitely open to interpretation.  

Does anyone care to weigh in? The relevant section appears to be CFDTI 5.24.

Thanks for your input.


----------



## larry Strong (26 Sep 2017)

Do you put in a full day on Friday's?

IIRC the RSS staff and Class "B" were done at noon on Fridays.....


Cheers
Larry


----------



## FJAG (26 Sep 2017)

Milhouser911 said:
			
		

> Good afternoon everyone.
> 
> I'm a reg force member in a reserve CSS posting, looking to wrap my head around the idea of coming in for Thursday night training nights after a regular day's work.  This is mostly smoke-pit chatter, since I understand that the powers that be will administer it however they choose, but for my own entertainment I'd like to know if this concept has any weight.
> 
> ...



It's been quite a time since I was an RSSO but way back when there were still dinosaurs roaming the armories, my people worked an 0800 to 0400 day. The regiment had an admin night on Tuesdays from 1900 to 2200 and paraded every second Saturday and Sunday from 0800 - 1600. 

We worked the same hours as the reservists and I gave my people compensatory time off by having Wednesdays as a late start day at noon and every Monday off which gave my folks a continuous alternating one-day weekend and three-day weekend. Stat holidays were factored in as well. They seemed to be satisfied with that.

 :cheers:


----------



## FSTO (27 Sep 2017)

Before I left QUEEN, we switched to training every other Saturday and admin nights on Thurs (we used to Parade on Tuesday night, admin night did not change). The FTS had a choice of Friday or Monday off. Everyone was happy with the arrangement.


----------



## daftandbarmy (28 Sep 2017)

Milhouser911 said:
			
		

> Good afternoon everyone.
> 
> I'm a reg force member in a reserve CSS posting, looking to wrap my head around the idea of coming in for Thursday night training nights after a regular day's work.



Speaking as a Class A guy with over a couple of decades in the traces, I am still trying to wrap my head around that one too


----------



## Haggis (28 Sep 2017)

Milhouser911, I suggest you call or e-mail the incumbent RSS/FTUC at your new unit to get a feel for the weekly battle rhythm.

I'm a Class A Ops O with two Reg F NCMs and a Class A Trg O in my Ops/Trg shop.  My two Reg F work an "adjusted work week" with a sometimes floating day off in lieu for parading Tuesday and Thursday evenings.  When it comes to making up for weekends, we're pretty collaborative in working it out among the four of us.  (The Class A Trg O and I are shift workers and are usually on opposite shifts so one of us is there at any given time as "top cover" for my NCMs).  So far it's been working quite well in my unit.  I trust my NCMs to not "game the system" and they don't let me down.


----------



## Lumber (28 Sep 2017)

Milhouser911 said:
			
		

> Good afternoon everyone.
> 
> I'm a reg force member in a reserve CSS posting, looking to wrap my head around the idea of coming in for Thursday night training nights after a regular day's work.  This is mostly smoke-pit chatter, since I understand that the powers that be will administer it however they choose, but for my own entertainment I'd like to know if this concept has any weight.
> 
> ...



_*0900*_ to 1600?! Lucky you. 

Every unit is a little different. At my unit, for example, the office is open 0800-1600 every day, we have a Training night every Tuesday from 1900-2200, an Admin night every Thursday from 1900-2200, and 1 training Saturday each month. Full-time staff is required to be present for all of these.

However, we get fairly good compensation in return. First, half the full-time staff gets every Monday off, and the other half gets every Friday off, no questions. We don't track anything; if you're full time staff, it's automatic. Further, if there is a holiday on the Monday/Friday, then we get the Tuesday/Thursday off instead (in addition to the holiday - hurrah for 4 days weekends). Finally, the schedule I described in my first paragraph is only during our training year from the beginning of September to the end April. During the summer months from May to August, we have no training Saturdays, no training Tuesdays, and Admin nights are only once every _other_ week, but we still get every Monday or Friday off (summers are a nice break).  

Now, your actual question was about getting TD benefits for being recalled to work. I can't guarantee that you someone with enough time and effort wouldn't be able to make a case, but in 99% of situation, I don't think you're going to win. Being recalled, in the spirit of why it was included in the CFTDTIs, means that you were recalled for an abnormal reason. You went home expecting to stay home, but had to go back to work. Fair enough. However, for your RSS job, that is simply your assigned work schedule that the CO has set; it's not unexpected. At least that's my take on it. 

Or, the CO could make your schedule on those days 0800-2200 so that you don't go home and come back. The CAF _*HATES*_ spending TD money, so I;d say count your blessings.


----------



## Rifleman62 (28 Sep 2017)

> Further, if there is a holiday on the Monday/Friday, then we get the Tuesday/Thursday off instead (in addition to the holiday.....



Lucky you. Never seen that in Western Canada over many decades.

Summer, you will probably be tasked at the very least, to support Reserve Trg.


----------



## Lumber (28 Sep 2017)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Lucky you. Never seen that in Western Canada over many decades.
> 
> Summer, you will probably be tasked at the very least, to support Reserve Trg.



Well, when you think about it, it makes sense. 

Let's say the holiday is on a Monday. Those at the unit who normally have Fridays off now have both Friday AND Monday, and only work 3 days that week; they get a holiday AND their CTO.

For those that normally have Monday off, you give them Tuesday off as well, so that just like the other half of they full-time staff, they get a holiday and a CTO that week.

It's only fair. Most holidays fall on a Monday, and if you didn't do this, those of us who already have Monday's off would be treated unfairly compared to those who normally have Fridays off.

Further, forget fairness between the two halfs of the day staff, let's break it down. The reason we get Friday/Monday off during a regular work-week is so that we work a typical 40 hour work-week (if we didn't get these days off, then we'd be working ~48 work weeks because of the Tuesday and Thursday nights). When there is a statutory holiday, that is tantamount to the government saying "you only need to work 32 hours this week". So, for those who normally have Fridays off, and now get Monday off as well, they are working a 32 work week (12 hours Tuesday and Thursday, and 8 hours on Wednesday). _If we did not give Tuesday off for those who normally have their day off on Monday_, they'd be working 40 hours during a week when they're supposed to be only working 32. If that was the case, then what would be the point of the Holiday at all? (to be clear, when they get Tuesday off in these cases, they only get the day off, they are expected to come in that night).


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (28 Sep 2017)

I suspect Lumber is RSS in a Naval Reserve Division, and what he describes is pretty close to what most such units do. During the summer, naval reservists train on the coasts or in Quebec city and no unit's RSS personnel has to help with any of this summer training. They just have to make sure the reservists get there, and deal with personnel that is RTU'd. 

Naval reserve RSS gets to catch up on a lot of little things that slipped during the summer period.  ;D


----------



## Eye In The Sky (28 Sep 2017)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Lucky you. Never seen that in Western Canada over many decades.



Thankfully, the CFLMP covers that now so people don't get the crap worked out of them.  

1.1.22 Shift Worker

A shift worker is a person who does not necessarily have a working day schedule of Monday to Friday with Saturday, Sunday and designated and/or statutory holidays scheduled as non-working days. 

Section 2.8 Shift Work

2.8.01 Scheduling

The concept of a weekend for a shift worker is not restricted to Saturdays and Sundays.  Shift workers may follow a schedule that differs from a Monday to Friday working week, but it is a schedule nonetheless.  In scheduling the working days of a shift worker, the CO is responsible for specifically identifying both the working and non-working days so as to ensure that the amount of time off is equivalent to the weekends and statutory holidays provided to CF members working a Monday to Friday work-week.


My CBG HQ time (over a decade ago...), the HQ was a mix of Reg and B/As with a few CL A types mixed in.  Our Bde normal parade times for Cl A was Thurs nights and the first weekend of every month.  As the HQ, we worked those times as well but like Lumber mentioned, we were considered "shiftworkers" and given either Monday or Friday off;  this was, usually, left to the Branch Heads discretion by the COS/HQ CO (usually the same person) as to who took what days, the expectation being there would be someone to answer phones and do the business each 'G' did on both Monday and Friday.  Easter Weekend was a good one, 5 days off and no Ann Lve required.  BUT...I also would end up with a bunch of CTOs in the bank come December, so the Bde got its pound of flesh out of me and most others.  Our SAV/TAV schedules weren't dictated by our normal Mon or Fri day off, of course.  

We also had a *broken* work day on the training night;  HQ full timers were allowed to leave at 1500 and had to be back for 1845.  If we went home, it was our choice but I don't ever remember anyone getting meals of travel assistance for it.


----------



## Rifleman62 (28 Sep 2017)

> Well, when you think about it, it makes sense.



Agree absolutely. At the unit for example, we worked Tuesday to Friday 0800 to 1600, plus Tuesday nights, 1900- 2200 and one Sat/Sun weekend a month, sometimes two in the Fall/Spring. FTX weekend were Fri/Sat/Sun. Bde HQ (Mil Gp HQ) was the same. Staff who maned Mondays got Friday off but worked the Friday if Monday was a Stat. Good Friday everyone got off. Personally, I don't know any unit full timers who got CTO for Stats worked. It seemed that every Feb, I worked every weekend, but that was partly self imposed. If you worked at Bde HQ and the unit quite often it was 2 weekends per month in the Spring/Fall. with no extra CTO asked or given.

Years ago it was Tuesday and Thursday nights, then Tuesday/Wednesday nights. Thanksgiving and Victoria Day weekends were usually 3 1/2 day FTX's 

If you were tasked/volunteered to run/sp Recruit Basic etc you worked more weekends.

No bitches from me. That's the job and I enjoyed it.


----------

