# Change of Command drill question / passing of the Colours and Swagger (Pace) stick



## Eye In The Sky (18 May 2022)

Doing some prep work for a CofC.  I took a look thru 265 to find the drill movements for the "passing of the Colours/Swagger stick" (we are doing a CofA and CofC at the same ceremony).

Couldn't find anything in 201.  Not in Ch 8, not in Ch 12.  Is this something done that isn't captured in the Pub?


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## Colin Parkinson (19 May 2022)

Similar to passing a sword?


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## Eye In The Sky (19 May 2022)

Likely; but our Sqns always use our Colours.  Colour Officer presents Colours to Outgoing CO.  Outgoing CO presents to Reviewing Officer (usually WComd).  Reviewing Officer presents Colours to Incoming CO. Incoming CO presents back to Colour Officer.


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## SupersonicMax (19 May 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> Doing some prep work for a CofC.  I took a look thru 265 to find the drill movements for the "passing of the Colours/Swagger stick" (we are doing a CofA and CofC at the same ceremony).
> 
> Couldn't find anything in 201.  Not in Ch 8, not in Ch 12.  Is this something done that isn't captured in the Pub?


There shouldn’t be any parade.  It should be a sit-down ceremony per the RCAF reconstitution directive.


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## Halifax Tar (19 May 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> There shouldn’t be any parade.  It should be a sit-down ceremony per the RCAF reconstitution directive.



The whole CAF should adopt that.  Nothing I hate more than a change of command ceremony.  

Maybe that it's become SOP or expected for messes to buy the departing command pers a present I hate more... Not sure yet.


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## dimsum (19 May 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> There shouldn’t be any parade.  It should be a sit-down ceremony per the RCAF reconstitution directive.


Is that directive officially out?  I would love to print out that page and show some people.


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## Kilted (19 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> The whole CAF should adopt that.  Nothing I hate more than a change of command ceremony.
> 
> Maybe that it's become SOP or expected for messes to buy the departing command pers a present I hate more... Not sure yet.


It's basically an SOP.


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## OldSolduer (19 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> The whole CAF should adopt that.  Nothing I hate more than a change of command ceremony.
> 
> Maybe that it's become SOP or expected for messes to buy the departing command pers a present I hate more... Not sure yet.


Beg to differ here. 

In the Army it marks the ending of service to the Regiment by the outgoing CO. It also marks the beginning of the end of Regimental service by the incoming CO. There's only three slots for a CO of a battalion in the Regiment I belong to (retired but once a Patricia..) and its a big deal. 

If y'all want to sit down for a Change of Command have at it but I think the Army needs to hold on to some traditions.

And yes the whole gift giving thing needs to be reviewed.


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## Furniture (19 May 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Beg to differ here.
> 
> In the Army it marks the ending of service to the Regiment by the outgoing CO. It also marks the beginning of the end of Regimental service by the incoming CO. There's only three slots for a CO of a battalion in the Regiment I belong to (retired but once a Patricia..) and its a big deal.
> 
> ...


The parade/ceremony is worthwhile to keep, but move the speeches to the Officers Mess after the troops have been dismissed. 

I have never been at a change of command where the speeches were primarily directed at the people standing on parade, they were always directed at the people seated uncomfortably in the stands. Why not change that so the people the speech is directed at are comfortable with a drink in their hand, while the troops are at home/in the mess with a drink in their hand?


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## SupersonicMax (19 May 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Beg to differ here.
> 
> In the Army it marks the ending of service to the Regiment by the outgoing CO. It also marks the beginning of the end of Regimental service by the incoming CO. There's only three slots for a CO of a battalion in the Regiment I belong to (retired but once a Patricia..) and its a big deal.
> 
> ...


You can still mark those transitions without a parade.  How much time is wasted preparing for a parade that could be used at better, more meaningful tasks?



dimsum said:


> Is that directive officially out?  I would love to print out that page and show some people.


Yes.  DM me your DWAN email and I’ll send it later today.


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## Eye In The Sky (19 May 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> There shouldn’t be any parade.  It should be a sit-down ceremony per the RCAF reconstitution directive.



There isn’t; I never said anything about a parade.  It’s a ceremony at the Mess which is why I said “ceremony” in my original post. The passing of the Swagger Stick and Colours are part of the ceremony as is the signing of certificates.  I did some digging; there is no written policy on the process.   I’ve seen it done with and without a pace forward so was wondering what the official stuff was.  It doesn’t exist so it can be either or.


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## Eye In The Sky (19 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> The whole CAF should adopt that.  Nothing I hate more than a change of command ceremony.
> 
> Maybe that it's become SOP or expected for messes to buy the departing command pers a present I hate more... Not sure yet.



Parades are out for now; ceremonies are the new norm even for WComd.  Not even Colour Parties will attend the Wing CofC Ceremony, just Comd Teams and assorted other VIP types.

Personally, I have done enough CofC parades in almost 33 years now.  I sat in the 2nd class seating at a Wing CofC in 2019 and it was worse than being on parade.  Hot, zero breeze…

I can accept the new tradition changing to a CofC ceremony in the Mess (we have a fairly decent one).  No1s for participating mbrs, 3B for spectators.  2 hours max for the whole affair and the bar is open after.   That is a nice way to mark the event.  

I realize in my community we tend to know our COs very well;  I’ve done a few deployments with our Outgoing, he’s been the Skipper more than once. 

Doing it at the mess also draws less temporary resources from other Wing units.  WTISS isn’t sourced to provide/setup/run/tear down a PA system as 1 example.


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## GK .Dundas (19 May 2022)

The way it should  be , afterall you wouldn't want the  serfs contaminating the ceremony with their presence.


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## Halifax Tar (19 May 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Beg to differ here.
> 
> In the Army it marks the ending of service to the Regiment by the outgoing CO. It also marks the beginning of the end of Regimental service by the incoming CO. There's only three slots for a CO of a battalion in the Regiment I belong to (retired but once a Patricia..) and its a big deal.
> 
> ...



Here comes the new boss, same as the old boss. 

Then make command tours 3 to 4 years.  Ours seem to check out ever 18 to 24 months or less.


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## rmc_wannabe (19 May 2022)

The only reason I can see doing a parade with CoC is if you tack on Unit level awards, promotions, or another unit level tradition like Trooping the Colour or honouring a battle or commemoration; having a parade solely because it's time to swap is not on. 

When you make it about the u it and their accomplishments, it should make it harder for it to turn into the "I love me" circle jerk that has become the norm..


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## Eye In The Sky (19 May 2022)

I would prefer to see promotions, H & As done separately from CofC/CofA ceremonies.   The CofC/CofA really should be for the Outgoings to say thanks and end their Command or Appointment on a positive note.   

Like you said, save Parades for unit-important milestones or historical pride points etc.  

Not all COs are bad and CofC parades aren’t necessarily “bad” either.  

I know we are trending away from traditional events but… going too far can be bad as well.


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## OldSolduer (20 May 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> I would prefer to see promotions, H & As done separately from CofC/CofA ceremonies.   The CofC/CofA really should be for the Outgoings to say thanks and end their Command or Appointment on a positive note.
> 
> Like you said, save Parades for unit-important milestones or historical pride points etc.
> 
> ...


Agreed - we have customs and traditions for reasons. Recognizing people that have gone above and beyond on a CoC parade is a good thing. Its not always about the CO.


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## SupersonicMax (21 May 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Agreed - we have customs and traditions for reasons. Recognizing people that have gone above and beyond on a CoC parade is a good thing. Its not always about the CO.


I’d rather do a 20 minutes town hall a couple of times a year, update the unit on what’s going on and recognize people during that event, than wasting a week getting ready for a parade when people could be turning wrenches and fixing aircraft instead (doing the work we pay them to do and the job they joined to do).


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## rmc_wannabe (21 May 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> I’d rather do a 20 minutes town hall a couple of times a year, update the unit on what’s going on and recognize people during that event, than wasting a week getting ready for a parade when people could be turning wrenches and fixing aircraft instead (doing the work we pay them to do and the job they joined to do).


This must be a cultural difference I guess between us (Army vs. Air Force/Navy). 

If it takes a week for y'all to prep for a parade, I don't blame you for wanting to scrap them...


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## OldSolduer (21 May 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> I’d rather do a 20 minutes town hall a couple of times a year, update the unit on what’s going on and recognize people during that event, than wasting a week getting ready for a parade when people could be turning wrenches and fixing aircraft instead (doing the work we pay them to do and the job they joined to do).


That’s you. The RCAF does things differently and I have no issues with that. You have real things to do.

This is what The Army does. Let it be.


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## SupersonicMax (21 May 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> That’s you. The RCAF does things differently and I have no issues with that. You have real things to do.
> 
> This is what The Army does. Let it be.


If the Army has no better things to do, they could very well be gainfully employed as Wing Auxiliary Security Forces.


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## OldSolduer (21 May 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> If the Army has no better things to do, they could very well be gainfully employed as Wing Auxiliary Security Forces.


Right - the infantry isn’t a guard force . Give it a rest


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## rmc_wannabe (21 May 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> If the Army has no better things to do, they could very well be gainfully employed as Wing Auxiliary Security Forces.


If the majority of our Air Force is brought to combat ineffectiveness for a 2 hour parade every 2 years, I have some serious questions about recruiting, retention, and force employment.


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## SupersonicMax (21 May 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Right - the infantry isn’t a guard force . Give it a rest


Neither are Air Techs.


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## Ostrozac (21 May 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> If the majority of our Air Force is brought to combat ineffectiveness for a 2 hour parade every 2 years, I have some serious questions about recruiting, retention, and force employment.


If you’re worried about the RCAF’s combat ineffectiveness, I have some bad news about procurement, maintenance, training and retention. Admittedly, parades are unlikely to do much more damage, but they also won’t do much good.

Besides, indications are that the CAF as an institution doesn’t think parades are very important. Because if leadership thought that parades were important, they wouldn‘t have outsourced the supply of dress uniforms to a provider that was incapable of reliably providing the pieces of said uniforms.


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## The Bread Guy (21 May 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Right - the infantry isn’t a guard force . Give it a rest





SupersonicMax said:


> Neither are Air Techs.


Army and air force folks differing on the value of bashing the square?

Time for the RCAF Regiment, then, based on these guys? 








						RAF Regiment | Royal Air Force
					

See more from the Royal Air Force




					www.raf.mod.uk


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## OldSolduer (21 May 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> Neither are Air Techs.


Once more everyone including the RCAF is responsible for their own security. Not The RCR PPCLI or Vandoos


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## SupersonicMax (21 May 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Once more everyone including the RCAF is responsible for their own security. Not The RCR PPCLI or Vandoos


From our doctrine:



We are all under the same command. We should all strive to use our ressources efficiently.  If it means supporting other elements in their missions then so be it.


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## OldSolduer (21 May 2022)

Honestly the culture of the Army is different. DO you have parades just for the sake of having them? 

We paraded every morning to see if everyone was there and not off somewhere else. It was also to pass on relevant information to the troops.


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## Eye In The Sky (21 May 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> If the Army has no better things to do, they could very well be gainfully employed as Wing Auxiliary Security Forces.



I get that you’ve never worn a green DEU and have no appreciation for traditions that the Army might hold more close to the heart than the RCAF, but being insulting and condescending isn’t the best approach.

Why not ask and learn what different environments still believe in “having some military in the military”.  

That seems the conduct more befitting a snr officer.


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## Eye In The Sky (21 May 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> If the majority of our Air Force is brought to combat ineffectiveness for a 2 hour parade every 2 years, I have some serious questions about recruiting, retention, and force employment.



They’re not;  LRP continued to do CofC parades during IMPACT which was a 3 year sustained op for us.  We also continued doing several other international Ops, domestic ops, exercises etc.  Downing tools and clearing the FlyPro for a day or 2 (less no duff SAR sorties) is a fairly big PITA for people already at max capacity for extended times.  CofC Parades in the RCAF also include a fly past usually, so crews to fly/launch/recover, efforts from the MSS and OSS for same.

CofC ceremony in the mess?  Very easy to do and requires WComd team and other unit Comd Teams vice “the whole gang” from all units.  Our upcoming one, only 9 people total will be in 1As, including the Colour Officer and Orderly.   Everyone else, comfortably seated in 3B. Image tech?  3B.  

The army isn’t operational in garrison; big difference.  The RCAF also doesn’t appreciate the value in large parades - the effort, focus, esprit de corps etc that comes with something like the big CTC grad parade with roll pasts etc.

Having lived both DEU lifestyles, I get both and think both suit the environments.  TacHel folks are maybe the closet hybrid of the 2 worlds.

The only parade I saw take a whole week was the CTC grad parade but it also was more than “just a parade”.


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## Good2Golf (21 May 2022)

Parades aren’t burdensome unless they’re turned into something unreasonable.  A town hall or an AMA, is also a parade, just that people don’t think of it as such, but it is. 

Most CoC’s (TacHel) I’ve seen have the Reviewing Officer give a tip to outgoing and incoming COs, but focus on the unit and it’s members’ contribution to the formation’s order of battle.

Heck, even for the presentation of a Squadron’s Colours by the GG, I’ve only seen ~6/7 hrs total practice over a couple of days to carry out the ceremony.  I have never seen a unit take a week to practice for a parade.


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## Eye In The Sky (21 May 2022)

Wing CofC; IIRC, 1 day practice.  0800-1000 was “without Flts” so the +WO/+Capt ranks coukd get the rhythm down.  Remainder arrived @ 1000.  Complete rehearsal in slowish time.  Dinner.  Complete rehearsal in the afternoon w/fly past to get the final pieces in order.  Dress of the day, and some light hearted moments when people took a few extra paces on the Advance in review order, or someone in a Comd position made a funny turn or stuff like that.  Outgoing WComd had a chance to talk to folks informally one last time…

Next day; parade in the morning, move to the mess, and traditionally , new WComd calls
Min Manning for remainder of the week (was common for CofC to be on Thursday).


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## OldSolduer (21 May 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Parades aren’t burdensome unless they’re turned into something unreasonable.  A town hall or an AMA, is also a parade, just that people don’t think of it as such, but it is.
> 
> Most CoC’s (TacHel) I’ve seen have the Reviewing Officer give a tip to outgoing and incoming COs, but focus on the unit and it’s members’ contribution to the formation’s order of battle.
> 
> Heck, even for the presentation of a Squadron’s Colours by the GG, I’ve only seen ~6/7 hrs total practice over a couple of days to carry out the ceremony.  I have never seen a unit take a week to practice for a parade.


Trooping of The Colours six weeks. 

If any of you have never seen one please do. You’ll appreciate it.


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## OldSolduer (21 May 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> I get that you’ve never worn a green DEU and have no appreciation for traditions that the Army might hold more close to the heart than the RCAF, but being insulting and condescending isn’t the best approach.
> 
> Why not ask and learn what different environments still believe in “having some military in the military”.
> 
> That seems the conduct more befitting a snr officer.



Just to add the infantry won’t do WASF. They are generally chasing bad guys


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## Eye In The Sky (21 May 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Just to add the infantry won’t do WASF. They are generally chasing bad guys



I’d have to check but I don’t think our WASF includes 1st or 2nd line techs and definitely not aircrew.  It’s primarily made up of Mission Support Squadron folks who support but aren’t involved in conducting flying operations.

I don’t do WASF but I also left work last Sunday at 2330.  It wasn’t a duty day, I just had lots of stuff coming up with deadlines; we all pay our pound of flesh.


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## Eye In The Sky (21 May 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Trooping of The Colours six weeks.
> 
> If any of you have never seen one please do. You’ll appreciate it.



Some might not remember this, but the RCAF seems proud to include this under the _*Showcasing the RCAF *_folder.  This was definitely deemed worth the effort and hours and costs.  






						Public Duties (UK) - Royal Canadian Air Force - Canada.ca
					

For the first time in its 94-year history, the Royal Canadian Air Force sent a contingent to the United Kingdom to perform Public Duties for Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II.




					www.canada.ca


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## rmc_wannabe (21 May 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Trooping of The Colours six weeks.
> 
> If any of you have never seen one please do. You’ll appreciate it.


Been on one of those parades, it's a bag drive, but it's well worth the effort. The closest thing I would call "performance art" within the Army.


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## SupersonicMax (21 May 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> I get that you’ve never worn a green DEU and have no appreciation for traditions that the Army might hold more close to the heart than the RCAF, but being insulting and condescending isn’t the best approach.
> 
> Why not ask and learn what different environments still believe in “having some military in the military”.
> 
> That seems the conduct more befitting a snr officer.


That’s not meant as an insult.  It is actually something that is being looked at.


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## Eye In The Sky (21 May 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> That’s not meant as an insult.  It is actually something that is being looked at.



Maybe not meant to be, but could easily be taken that way.

As a young army NCO a few moons ago, I took pride in my ability in things like drill;  maybe that is changing but maybe that’s not a 100% good thing.

Having left green DEUs behind more than a few years ago, I’m very happy to shift to CofC ceremonies.  😁


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## btrudy (21 May 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Honestly the culture of the Army is different. DO you have parades just for the sake of having them?
> 
> We paraded every morning to see if everyone was there and not off somewhere else. It was also to pass on relevant information to the troops.



So "this meeting could have been an e-mail" in parade form? 



Good2Golf said:


> Parades aren’t burdensome unless they’re turned into something unreasonable.  A town hall or an AMA, is also a parade, just that people don’t think of it as such, but it is.



Ummm... How exactly are you defining "parade" here? OED uses "a formal occasion when soldiers march or stand in lines so that they can be inspected (= looked at and approved) by their officers or other important people", which is rather in line with how I'd define it. 

A town hall, where you have people go sit down in a room together and listen to a dude talk, maybe ask a few questions, would not be something that I'd ever call a parade.


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## OldSolduer (21 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> So "this meeting could have been an e-mail" in parade form?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We get it you don’t like parades.

I’ll make this simple: in the infantry we do strange things like account for our soldiers, ensure they are tasked trained etc. I’m sure you do the same only differently. 

The infantry is a different culture from the rest and even within the infantry customs and traditions vary. 
Give it a rest


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## Eye In The Sky (22 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> So "this meeting could have been an e-mail" in parade form?









One of the funniest and, concurrently, stupidest things anyone has said on here. 

You obviously need some Regt/Bn time.




btrudy said:


> Ummm... How exactly are you defining "parade" here? OED uses "a formal occasion when soldiers march or stand in lines so that they can be inspected (= looked at and approved) by their officers or other important people", which is rather in line with how I'd define it.
> 
> A town hall, where you have people go sit down in a room together and listen to a dude talk, maybe ask a few questions, would not be something that I'd ever call a parade.



MS Middlemiss shared the same (wrong, mind you) opinion on what constitutes a parade in the CAF.  I’ve attended more than 1 town hall that was deemed a parade.  

Para 5, if you don’t like long reads:






						Middlemiss R. J. (Master Seaman), R. v. - Chief Military Judge
					

Get quick, easy access to all Government of Canada services and information.




					decisia.jmc-cmj.forces.gc.ca
				




Are you a CIC Officer by any chance?  A very, very junior one?


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## Blackadder1916 (22 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> . . . How exactly are you defining "parade" here? . . .



Parade.  A requirement to be somewhere, at a specific time, to do a specific task. 

e.g., in the Militia, "Parade Night" means the scheduled training session;  for drivers, "First Parade" means checking fuel and lubricant levels, tire pressure, vehicle cleanliness and damage, etc before starting a driving task; "Orders Parade" means a Summary Trial, okay there is usually some drill involved in that one; . . .


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## btrudy (22 May 2022)

My dudes, the thread is a discussion on the ceremonial aspects associated with a change of command.

I mean, I get that sometimes people for some reason use the term "parade" to mean "a mandatory event", even if the event in question doesn't at all resemble the actual definition of the word parade (which, for what it's worth, also doesn't carry the connotations of "a mandatory event").

But in a discussion on this particular topic, using a completely different definition of the term is just going to throw things off on a tangent.




Blackadder1916 said:


> Parade.  A requirement to be somewhere, at a specific time, to do a specific task.
> 
> e.g., in the Militia, "Parade Night" means the scheduled training session;



Case in point here I guess, considering that in the militia, "Parade Nights" aren't mandatory, and you can miss a reasonable number of them without being declared NES.


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## Halifax Tar (22 May 2022)

Parades have their time and place, it's part of the military experience.  But to be culmination of a clear out process for an individual seems a waste of resources to me.  

If the infantry have nothing better to do then go ahead dig in and enjoy but some of us have work to do. 

As an aside we took a week to prepare for a CoC parade at CFJSR.  But the week was a silly week too... Lots of parade practice and sports.


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## The Bread Guy (22 May 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> Some might not remember this, but the RCAF seems proud to include this under the _*Showcasing the RCAF *_folder.  This was definitely deemed worth the effort and hours and costs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


True, and good show on them, but I'd be curious to know more about how they got into the rotation for that duty - does someone in Big Air Force "ask", or does someone above Big Air Force say "it's your time, folks," or some other mystical bureaucratic process?

Not that they shouldn't have a go, by any means, but the highlighted fact alone would be proof of the lower priority more-elaborate drill/ceremonial has in the Air Force ....


> *For the first time in its 94-year history*, the Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) sent a contingent to the United Kingdom to perform Public Duties for Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II ...


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## Colin Parkinson (22 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Parades have their time and place, it's part of the military experience.  But to be culmination of a clear out process for an individual seems a waste of resources to me.
> 
> If the infantry have nothing better to do then go ahead dig in and enjoy but some of us have work to do.
> 
> As an aside we took a week to prepare for a CoC parade at CFJSR.  But the week was a silly week too... Lots of parade practice and sports.


In the army I think it has it's roots in whether the troops were willing to follow said CO, in a way test to see their loyalty and confidence in the new CO.


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## Halifax Tar (22 May 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> In the army I think it has it's roots in whether the troops were willing to follow said CO, in a way test to see their loyalty and confidence in the new CO.



Want to have a test ?  Make it optional.


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## rmc_wannabe (22 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Want to have a test ?  Make it optional.


Never give soldiers an option. Same thing with "treating them like adults."

Treat soldiers like soldiers. Soldiers receive direction and orders and they are expected to follow them (unless theyre unlawful, obviously). Every soldier in the Battalion from Private to the CO is expected to follow and obey orders from "DEU 1A, 0830hrs" to "Charile Team, take that trench."

That obedience is formed and honed on the square and there is no optional choices when you're ordered to turn left or right.


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## Quirky (22 May 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> If the Army has no better things to do, they could very well be gainfully employed as Wing Auxiliary Security Forces.



I’ve always wondered who the Primary Security Forces are. MPs and 60-70 year old Commissionaires?


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## dapaterson (22 May 2022)

The new NDHQ at Carling Campus has frequent patrols by an aggressive auxiliary force.


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## Halifax Tar (22 May 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Never give soldiers an option. Same thing with "treating them like adults."
> 
> Treat soldiers like soldiers. Soldiers receive direction and orders and they are expected to follow them (unless theyre unlawful, obviously). Every soldier in the Battalion from Private to the CO is expected to follow and obey orders from "DEU 1A, 0830hrs" to "Charile Team, take that trench."
> 
> That obedience is formed and honed on the square and there is no optional choices when you're ordered to turn left or right



I think we'll have to agree to disagree.  I've had great success treating people like adults, and giving them freedom and responsibility to complete tasks in their own method.  The few that take negative advantage of that don't last long.  

And their dedication to following orders has never let me down.  It funny and surprising what a little empathy shared adversity will get you as a leader.


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## OldSolduer (22 May 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Never give soldiers an option. Same thing with "treating them like adults."
> 
> Treat soldiers like soldiers. Soldiers receive direction and orders and they are expected to follow them (unless theyre unlawful, obviously). Every soldier in the Battalion from Private to the CO is expected to follow and obey orders from "DEU 1A, 0830hrs" to "Charile Team, take that trench."
> 
> That obedience is formed and honed on the square and there is no optional choices when you're ordered to turn left or right.


This.

If The RCAF or RCN want to dispense with parades go ahead.


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## Halifax Tar (22 May 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> This.
> 
> If The RCAF or RCN want to dispense with parades go ahead.



No one has said get rid of all parades.  Parades are a part of the military experience.  Its CoC parades people are talking about, or at least I am.


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## OldSolduer (22 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> No one has said get rid of all parades.  Parades are a part of the military experience.  Its CoC parades people are talking about, or at least I am.



Gotcha. 

IMO they are necessary but hey if you want to get rid of them ….


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## Halifax Tar (22 May 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Gotcha.
> 
> IMO they are necessary but hey if you want to get rid of them ….



I mean I don't have a choice.  Its just my opinion, and they are like assholes.  But I think you will see their format change drastically in the near future WRT to their formality and attendance, same with mess dinners.


----------



## OldSolduer (22 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I mean I don't have a choice.  Its just my opinion, and they are like assholes.  But I think you will see their format change drastically in the near future WRT to their formality and attendance, same with mess dinners.


I think speaking from an Army perspective the CoCs won’t change much but I’m retired so what do I know? Lol

Mess dinners are all good but the whole can’t use the washroom thing without permission is outdated. 

But I retired in 2017….


----------



## rmc_wannabe (22 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I think we'll have to agree to disagree.  I've had great success treating people like adults, and giving them freedom and responsibility to complete tasks in their own method.  The few that take negative advantage of that don't last long.


Oh believe me, I wasn't advocating micromanagement or not allowing people freedom or giving them responsibility; I am just more of a fan in giving people their left and right of arc rather than saying "you're all adults, don't be stupid..." because that has blown up in every leader's face at least once. Being told, explicitly, not to kidnap a calf out if the Wainwright training area prevents the "well you didn't say anything about thar...so..." conversation from happening.


Halifax Tar said:


> And their dedication to following orders has never let me down.  It funny and surprising what a little empathy shared adversity will get you as a leader.


We are both in agreement here. This is part in parcel with walking the walk when you talk the talk. I have never given direction or orders I myself won't adhere to.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (22 May 2022)

Quirky said:


> I’ve always wondered who the Primary Security Forces are. MPs and 60-70 year old Commissionaires?


I am in the room and armed with several strongly worded letters.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (22 May 2022)

When I took a sig course in Shilo back in the 80's I noted how long the regular army spent standing around every day waiting to be told what to do for the day, not the best use of time. A COC parade happen what every 2 years? At which point most people could use a drill refresher anyways. We just did a COC, Divisional Inspection and Change of Coxswain for our Cadet Corp, Which took less than two hours, along with a marchpast and 4 speeches.


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## dapaterson (22 May 2022)

The second to last CoC I attended had no marchpasts, a few promotions, and, including speeches from the presiding officer and incoming and outgoing COs took less than an hour.  Prep time was about two hours, to teach carbine drill.

And while I may be biased, I think the outgoing CO did a decent job of making it more about the troops than about himself.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (22 May 2022)

Another opinion, somewhat traditionalist.









						Change of Command – The Ceremony - RUSI(NS)
					

The Change of Command ceremony is a cornerstone of the Canadian Armed Forces and the Royal Canadian Navy, steeped with tradition.



					rusi-ns.ca
				





> . . .
> The Change of Command ceremony is a critical cornerstone of the Canadian Armed Forces and the RCN. For those charged with the defence of our country, they will be entrusted with power and authority that few Canadians will ever experience. If we may borrow from Stan Lee’s Spider-Man, the Peter Parker Principle states that with great power comes great responsibility.
> 
> Our adherence and observance of ceremony, customs, and traditions reaffirms and strengthens within us an appreciation of the trust the people of Canada have granted us for over 110 years. The Change of Command ceremony displays for all the transparent transition of power and authority, identifying who has been delegated the power and to whom they are responsible.
> . . .


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## Good2Golf (22 May 2022)

Perhaps a critical thought factor is to ask oneself if 1-2 days of parade prep/execution is a waste, can one honestly say that the unit is 100% productive for the other 363-364 days of the year??? 🤔


----------



## Eye In The Sky (22 May 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> If The RCAF or RCN want to dispense with parades go ahead.



I think what we are doing is minimizing the time/effort that is very well better spent on our primary tasks at my Sqn, while marking the CofC at the same time.

I can say with no hesitation my current Sqn runs at close to max capacity with surges a reality and has a fairly important mission to complete.  Minimizing ceremonial tasks is a good thing this year in particular.  

Win/win.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (22 May 2022)

Small addition to above; the more significant relaxation is the Wing CofC that is coming up.  It will also be small, only Command Teams to attend.  No Flts, no Colour Parties.   

This frees up people to do the work that was done at a lessened capacity during the 2 years of significant impact by COVID.  Not just the flying squadrons, but the entire Wing.

I suspect it will be temporary as well though.


----------



## dimsum (22 May 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> I suspect it will be temporary as well though.


Like Income Tax.


----------



## Halifax Tar (23 May 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> Another opinion, somewhat traditionalist.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh god the RUSI ... 



Good2Golf said:


> Perhaps a critical thought factor is to ask oneself if 1-2 days of parade prep/execution is a waste, can one honestly say that the unit is 100% productive for the other 363-364 days of the year??? 🤔



Absolutely.  Ships crews, I would argue, are probably the busiest entities in the CAF.  It's shocking to most the first time they experience it.  I know having gone to the Army for my MS to PO2 period I was lucky to have a quiet existence for a few years.


----------



## markppcli (14 Jun 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> The way it should  be , afterall you wouldn't want the  serfs contaminating the ceremony with their presence.


I guarantee the serfs are more than happy to not be on parade lol


----------



## Remius (14 Jun 2022)

If people prefer email change of commands then the public service has a great SOP.  Email gets sent out with the bio, people either read or delete or both.  They don’t really know what the new boss looks like until a town hall on teams or maybe during a random situational thing.


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## rmc_wannabe (14 Jun 2022)

Remius said:


> If people prefer email change of commands then the public service has a great SOP.  Email gets sent out with the bio, people either read or delete or both.  They don’t really know what the new boss looks like until a town hall on teams or maybe during a random situational thing.


I will bash the square for 6 days straight if it means we don't adopt yet another page from the PS's "How to Dismantle a Military, While Still Collecting a Paycheck" Handbook.


----------



## Remius (14 Jun 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> I will bash the square for 6 days straight if it means we don't adopt yet another page from the PS's "How to Dismantle a Military, While Still Collecting a Paycheck" Handbook.


We are dismantling the military from within.   The PS has nothing to do with that.


----------



## FSTO (14 Jun 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Oh god the RUSI ...
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely.  Ships crews, I would argue, are probably the busiest entities in the CAF.  It's shocking to most the first time they experience it.  I know having gone to the Army for my MS to PO2 period I was lucky to have a quiet existence for a few years.


According to my email exchange with the Base (now Formation) Chief in Halifax, the Petty Officer's guard (with a LT in command) took a whole forenoon to practice. They still fubard it, as in making the LT look like an idiot.


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## rmc_wannabe (14 Jun 2022)

Remius said:


> We are dismantling the military from within.   The PS has nothing to do with that.


Aiding and abetting is still part of the same crime.


----------



## dimsum (14 Jun 2022)

FSTO said:


> According to my email exchange with the Base (now Formation) Chief in Halifax, the Petty Officer's guard (with a LT in command) took a whole forenoon to practice. They still fubard it, as in making the LT look like an idiot.


You know what this means: 

Formal, full-time ceremonial guards like Australia's Federation Guard or Germany's Wachbatallion.  

Select them from Basic training, do that for 3 years, then send them on whatever trade training they would have done (or a preferential trade/posting).


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## Remius (14 Jun 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Aiding and abetting is still part of the same crime.


We’ve civilianised the CAF enough as it is.  That was the point I was making about email CofC.  And most of that is from the uniformed members wanting that. 

I’ve never once heard a civy at DND say “get rid of drill” or “the infantry doesn’t need mortars”.   But I’ve heard plenty of uniformed members say and enable that.


----------



## Remius (14 Jun 2022)

dimsum said:


> You know what this means:
> 
> Formal, full-time ceremonial guards like Australia's Federation Guard or Germany's Wachbatallion.
> 
> Select them from Basic training, do that for 3 years, then send them on whatever trade training they would have done (or a preferential trade/posting).


3rd infantry regiment in DC as well.   

Not sure the CAF can afford that though given our current state.


----------



## Remius (14 Jun 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Want to have a test ?  Make it optional.


You could easily apply that to any task people aren’t keen on doing in any work environment.  But your point is still valid.  And agree that troops would rather be doing something else.


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## btrudy (14 Jun 2022)

Remius said:


> You could easily apply that to any task people aren’t keen on doing in any work environment.  But your point is still valid.  And agree that troops would rather be doing something else.


The difference being the degree to which those tasks can be tied to fulfilling the organizations' operational goals. 

No one likes doing unpleasant and boring tasks. 

But people really hate doing unpleasant and boring _useless tasks._ And large scale drill focused ceremonial events such as change of command parades don't actually help us fight the enemy.



dimsum said:


> You know what this means:
> 
> Formal, full-time ceremonial guards like Australia's Federation Guard or Germany's Wachbatallion.
> 
> Select them from Basic training, do that for 3 years, then send them on whatever trade training they would have done (or a preferential trade/posting).



And the question of the day being, would the benefit of those people being really good at drill help the CAF fulfill its goals more than those people going straight to their occupational training and doing their actual jobs? 

What goal are you trying to accomplish here, and how important is that goal compared to our other pressing operational requirements?


----------



## Eye In The Sky (14 Jun 2022)

What good do the Snowbirds do for helping us fight the enemy?

Why do we have family days?   Families aren’t engaging the enemy.


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## btrudy (14 Jun 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> What good do the Snowbirds do for helping us fight the enemy?
> 
> Why do we have family days?   Families aren’t engaging the enemy.


Snowbirds' primary utility is raising awareness / goodwill with the public, which can aid in recruiting and possibly stave off budget cuts (yes, I know the latter is perhaps wishful thinking). 

Family days help raise the morale of CAF members and their families, make said families feel like more of a part of the overall military community, and thus stave off or at least delay some releases caused by spouses  and dependents being dragged all over the country to places where they don't know anyone and don't feel like they belong. 

The retention crisis is IMHO the #1 threat to sustaining our operational capability in both the short and the long term. 

So... now that you've asked your unrelated rhetorical question, please answer mine. 

What goal are we trying to accomplish by doing events like large scale change of command parades? How does it help, and furthermore how is it more helpful than other things we could be doing instead? 

You know, despite the fact that the rank and file (literally in this case) members at said units can't stand them, and thus holding them is going to be damaging morale and worsening the retention crisis.


----------



## SupersonicMax (14 Jun 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> What good do the Snowbirds do for helping us fight the enemy?
> 
> Why do we have family days?   Families aren’t engaging the enemy.


1- Recruitment
2- Family appreciation which has a direct impact on morale.

CoC parades are a detractor to morale (need to get that uniform ready on your own time and I don’t know many people that enjoy practicing drill for 3 days straight) and time thieves.  I’d rather have someone operate at 50% than being 100% sure they won’t be productive at all for that time.  150 people x 3 days, that’s the equivalent of two years for one person…. Or roughly $150,000 in salary alone…. To do something that detracts from morale and productivity.


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## dimsum (14 Jun 2022)

btrudy said:


> So... now that you've asked your unrelated rhetorical question, please answer mine.
> 
> What goal are we trying to accomplish by doing events like large scale change of command parades? How does it help, and furthermore how is it more helpful than other things we could be doing instead?
> 
> You know, despite the fact that the rank and file (literally in this case) members at said units can't stand them, and thus holding them is going to be damaging morale and worsening the retention crisis.


I have a feeling you directed that at me originally.

Units like the Wachbatallion and Fed Guard aren't for CoC parades, unless it's like CDS-level.  They basically take the place of the Ceremonial Guard, which we (sort of) have already.  

They also do honour guards for stuff like the USAF Chief of Staff in Ottawa last week, instead of pulling together random people from around the NCR.

I wholly believe that we don't need standard of CoC parades.  But, there are some ceremonial functions that are probably not going to go away (Remembrance Day, etc) so might as well have some ceremonial professionals for that.


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## Eye In The Sky (14 Jun 2022)

1.  I’d like to see solid numbers on how many people join(ed) over the last 3 decades because they saw the Snowbirds. 

2.  Whatever morale is created by a Family Day is squashed by everything else that is reality.  Deployments, unwanted postings, etc.

I think you’re over-valuing those 2 items.  Ever heard a distraught spouse say “…it’s our 3 move in 6 years and all that but you know, those family days really make it all worth it”.

I’ve never practiced for even a Wing CofC parade for 3 days.   1 morning run thru, 1 afternoon run thru that afternoon.  Parade the next day. 

Parades and ceremonies are part of uniform life. I’m glad to see the CoC ceremony format leaned down this year and hope it continues but my Sqn is still sending people to the Wing CofC this week; 3B and seated is better than what it used to be.


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## Eye In The Sky (14 Jun 2022)

btrudy said:


> Snowbirds' primary utility is raising awareness / goodwill with the public, which can aid in recruiting and possibly stave off budget cuts (yes, I know the latter is perhaps wishful thinking).
> 
> Family days help raise the morale of CAF members and their families, make said families feel like more of a part of the overall military community, and thus stave off or at least delay some releases caused by spouses  and dependents being dragged all over the country to places where they don't know anyone and don't feel like they belong.
> 
> ...



So, zero direct impact on operations.  Got it.

Being in the military involves lots of things people didn’t and don’t like. I didn’t want to march overnight from Hersey North/South to DDT1 in the rain all night in ‘98.  But i did it.

If people want a job that involves doing only what they want, or want to leave the military because they had to iron a shirt and do some drill, I say good luck to them in their next endeavour.   We don’t need people who complain about every little thing.  They don’t make the CAF stronger or more operational effective.


----------



## SupersonicMax (14 Jun 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> 1.  I’d like to see solid numbers on how many people join(ed) over the last 3 decades because they saw the Snowbirds.
> 
> 2.  Whatever morale is created by a Family Day is squashed by everything else that is reality.  Deployments, unwanted postings, etc.
> 
> ...


I am not disputing ceremonies but CoC parades.  Marching parades are an Army tradition that, imo, can stay with the Army.  The Air Force equivalent would be a fly past, which is a lot more relevant to what Air Forces do, if we want to tall about traditions.  

To your point about morale, because our Work-Life balance sucks we should just stop trying?


----------



## childs56 (14 Jun 2022)

Drill is important to moral.  Some may disagree but a properly turned out parade is a great thing to be part of.  Drill forms a basic level of Discipline within a individual. When do we do drill, The navy when they do ship formations are doing drill, the Airforce when they are flying formations are doing drill, the Army when they line up for an attack are doing drill. It isn't foot drill but it is formations which are part of Drill.  

I know when I attended a funeral as a member of the Airforce and then Remembrance Day I was really disappointed in the level of professionalism carried forward by those filling the ranks. I was ashamed that uniforms turned out in poor state, personal grooming for a few was something else and language was something be desired. When I talked to the WO afterwards he said oh well were Airforce. I asked him if that was what he wanted at his funeral. He said no it wasn't the Sqns best performance. 

At CFSATE dress was lacking by many, one Sgt in particular had a way with his uniform. As if he pulled it out of the corner of the floor after a party, his boots looked like he walked to hell and back with grey marks and all, his hair and mustache was something a 80 porn star would of been jealous of. The school chief wasn't much better. These were the managers (noticed I did not say leaders) in charged of setting standards. It showed by the lack of gaff many had that the standards were not there.  

If you don't want to do drill find another job somewhere else. Its part of the Military and part of the training to instill discipline and pride in ones self. 

Next it will be no more rifles they offend the infantry and affect their moral.


----------



## PuckChaser (14 Jun 2022)

Insanity is trying the same thing expecting different results.

"The Troops have low morale, let's have a sports day and a BBQ they must attend and pay for..."


----------



## SupersonicMax (14 Jun 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> Insanity is trying the same thing expecting different results.
> 
> "The Troops have low morale, let's have a sports day and a BBQ they must attend and pay for..."


People do what’s in their control to affect as much as possible their unit’s morale.  If you think that COs and command teams believe this is what will all of the sudden drastically improve morale, you are wrong.  But at least it is something they can do to even have a small effect.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (14 Jun 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> I am not disputing ceremonies but CoC parades.  Marching parades are an Army tradition that, imo, can stay with the Army.  The Air Force equivalent would be a fly past, which is a lot more relevant to what Air Forces do, if we want to tall about traditions.



Every Wing CoC parade I’ve been on or attended had both marching and fly past.   Our Wing CoC will have flypasts.   Having done army and Air Force CoC parades, the “2 run thru practice” followed by the parade itself is “light” compared to the Army stuff.  Cultural values factor in, I see both sides from wearing both DEU.  

A big parade like the old CTC one in August in Gagetown was a week long and included roll pasts and primarily, was for Officer graduations from the Schools in the Battle Mall.   It was appropriate for that large group and a nice parade after a summer of summer of some pretty serious “suck” for most of them.  

A similar week in the Air Force would make many people angry (me included 🙂).



SupersonicMax said:


> To your point about morale, because our Work-Life balance sucks we should just stop trying?



No, but I think it’s also important to place honest value in the things we do.  Our Sqn family day didn’t make my wife’s life easier when I was away 9 months in 2016, but my father in law got to go for a famil flight.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (15 Jun 2022)

childs56 said:


> Drill is important to moral.  Some may disagree but a properly turned out parade is a great thing to be part of.  Drill forms a basic level of Discipline within a individual. When do we do drill, The navy when they do ship formations are doing drill, the Airforce when they are flying formations are doing drill, the Army when they line up for an attack are doing drill. It isn't foot drill but it is formations which are part of Drill.
> 
> I know when I attended a funeral as a member of the Airforce and then Remembrance Day I was really disappointed in the level of professionalism carried forward by those filling the ranks. I was ashamed that uniforms turned out in poor state, personal grooming for a few was something else and language was something be desired. When I talked to the WO afterwards he said oh well were Airforce. I asked him if that was what he wanted at his funeral. He said no it wasn't the Sqns best performance.
> 
> ...



Drill; when I was green DEU I took great pride in knowledge of drill and ceremonial.  As a young NCO it was one way to demonstrate attention to detail, pride, etc. 

Last Sept, I was the Insignia Bearer and Bearer Party Comd for a Mil Funeral at Beechwood.  The entire group of us had only a morning to practice, under the careful guidance of the Snr NCO who works at Beechwood.  

Drill was taught fairly thoroughly at Cornwallis when I went thru.  Slow march, turns and inclines on the march, all of it.  

I was glad I had the background I had;  most mbrs aren’t taught slow march, so that was our start point that morning.  What ended up happening, basically, was the ex-army remasters showed the Jnr NCM air DEU people how to do the little things that are big things.  When the funeral proceeded with the mbrs family there, it was done the way those things should be done. 

As for the sloppy turn out by more senior NCMs, I hope their Officers will have the ability to ask (direct) them to improve…


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## Eye In The Sky (15 Jun 2022)

dimsum said:


> I wholly believe that we don't need standard of CoC parades.  But, there are some ceremonial functions that are probably not going to go away (Remembrance Day, etc) so might as well have some ceremonial professionals for that.



I mentioned Beechwood;  last Sept I was actually pretty impressed with the level of comfort, knowledge and proficiency  the “team” there had.  Many of them were young PRes Jnr NCMs.  There was 1 reg force WO posted there but they weren’t there the weekend we were, so the 2 I/c ran the show, a PRes Snr NCO.

You mentioned ceremonial responsibilities that are normal/expected with visiting state VIPs.

These are examples of why the CAF and nation has a responsibility to maintain some level of “ceremonial professionals”;  I don’t believe I’ll ever experience anything quite as humbling as the Insignia Bearer duty at Beechwood was, standing there among some of our nation’s heroes as we laid a Snr NCO to rest.  For that day my job was to do some basic drill, smartly, to honour a fallen CAF member and their family.


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## FSTO (15 Jun 2022)

Our little NRD in Regina did a CoC last Saturday. The parade was timed to commence at 1300. The platoon practiced for about 2 hours in the forenoon to get the cobwebs out, went for lunch. We then did the parade, signed the documents, quick speeches and then dismissed to the Wardroom for presentations of gifts and promotions, had a few drinks and food was laid on. All wrapped up by 1500. Got a BZ from Comd NAVRES for a tight and well run little ceremony


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## rmc_wannabe (15 Jun 2022)

Whenever people bring up the "Drill/No Drill" debate, I often am reminded of a quote I heard while watching a Trooping the Colour ceremony on BBC.

One of BBC commentators was a former Brigade Major in Waiting with the Grenadier Guards and was asked how different the training was between getting ready for Horse Guards and training for OP TELIC.

Paraphrasing, he responded by saying
...
they were essentially one and the same. He said in both cases, you're working as a team to accomplish a goal. You are perfecting your own skills and job within the larger group and then performing the task together as one cohesive unit. Everyone has a specific duty in it, and everyone is trusting and relying on every soldier, from Guardsman # 6 to the Brigade Major, to do their job to their very best. The result at Horse Guards is an impressive show of pageantry, yes, but also a show of force; like Gladiators entering the Coliseum, it's a way of saying "we are prepared, we are professionals, and we will fight with the same accuracy and precision you see on parade. You dont want to have a go at us"
...

CoCs may not be the same as Trooping the Colour, but it's still drill. It's still meant to be a show of cohesion, professionalism, and ability. Do I agree with it being a 4 hour circle jerk love fest for 2 senior officers? No. But I do agree that a proper parade, with a dignified ceremony followed by receptions in the Mess are perfect.

Otherwise, what is this thing except a PS job with less pay in more ornate clothing.


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## Halifax Tar (15 Jun 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> What good do the Snowbirds do for helping us fight the enemy?
> 
> Why do we have family days?   Families aren’t engaging the enemy.



Snowbirds are a golden cow.  Much like the Skyhawks and the RCMP Musical Ride.

Family days are for morale. 



rmc_wannabe said:


> Whenever people bring up theb"Drill/No Drill" debate, I often am reminded of a quote I heard while watching a Trooping the Colour ceremony on BBC.
> 
> One of BBC commentators was a former Brigade Major in Waiting with the Grenadier Guards and was asked how different the training was between getting ready for Horse Guards and training for OP TELIC.
> 
> ...



Drill is a part of military life, I agree.  And there most definitely is a time and place for it.  Remembrance Day is a great example.  

Maybe the eye rolling that goes on with things like change of command parades has more to do with the lack of connection the lower decker's have with those the parade is for.  

Right now it's seen more as a "flex" than anything else is the impression I get.


----------



## btrudy (15 Jun 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> they were essentially one and the same. He said in both cases, you're working as a team to accomplish a goal. You are perfecting your own skills and job within the larger group and then performing the task together as one cohesive unit.



Given that the same could be said for literally any group task, I'm not really sure why this is being used as some sort of defence for drill and parades.



rmc_wannabe said:


> Otherwise, what is this thing except a PS job with less pay in more ornate clothing.



Well... you see, it's the legalized violence in service of the country that does that. Not the walking around in formation.



Halifax Tar said:


> Drill is a part of military life, I agree.  And there most definitely is a time and place for it.  Remembrance Day is a great example.
> 
> Maybe the eye rolling that goes on with things like change of command parades has more to do with the lack of connection the lower decker's have with those the parade is for.
> 
> Right now it's seen more as a "flex" than anything else is the impression I get.



Hard to argue with this; once again I ask what the goal of the event is. Remembrance Day and other similar events serve a purpose, focused on the realities of war and how it affects us all. CoC tends to be a giant ego-stroking competition.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (15 Jun 2022)

btrudy said:


> Hard to argue with this; once again I ask what the goal of the event is. Remembrance Day and other similar events serve a purpose, focused on the realities of war and how it affects us all. CoC tends to be a giant ego-stroking competition.



Maybe there is a difference here with the RCAF and RCN.  All of my COs have called me by my first name; I’ve been on crew with most of them at some point.  I’m not special or anything, and I call them Sir or ma’am but we tend to know each other a little better in the Air Force (and my first and last name is on my chest every day so…). Same as the DCOs and most Sqn Exec.  Our units are smaller and such so maybe that has something to do with it.

The last Wing CoC is attended ( seated, not in a Flt) was my first LRP CO handing over command of the Wing to another former CO of mine who I deployed with.  Maybe knowing the officers involved makes it less of a PITA event.

Not all COs and above will score the same in rank and file Popularity Contests…but that shouldn’t matter very much in assessing CoC functions value in the CAF.

If they are still doing it, the CTC Gagetown officer graduation parade is pretty impressive.  It was about a week of practice and fairly long.  Roll pasts, salutes for marching and mounted elements.   It demonstrates a high level of discipline, command, team work and other things that are highly valuable in the military.  Not everything about drill is valueless to the entire CAF.


----------



## SupersonicMax (15 Jun 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> Not everything about drill is valueless to the entire CAF.


You are correct but the value that drill brings can be demonstrated through other, more relevant tasks.


----------



## Remius (15 Jun 2022)

btrudy said:


> Hard to argue with this; once again I ask what the goal of the event is. Remembrance Day and other similar events serve a purpose, focused on the realities of war and how it affects us all. CoC tends to be a giant ego-stroking competition.



The goal is a recognition of a COs past term and a welcome of the incoming.  It generally marks the end of the outgoing COs time in the regiment.   It’s an opportunity for the outgoing to review his unit and passing it on in good shape to the next.  Most if not all the CoCs I’ve been on involved one last chance for a CO to promote, recognize and award soldiers for various things.  Generally the COs family is recognized as well.  Followed by drinks and such in the messes. 

Your view on CoCs being a giant ego stroking competition shows that you really don’t understand what they mean.  And that’s fine. I won’t change your mind and could care less as none of your opinions will matter when we go through our next CofC.    Ceremonies and ceremonial are *all* symbolic in nature.  From remembrance day, to funerals to freedom of the city parades to quarter guards to sentries at the tomb etc etc.  You choose to place more value on one over another based on your own set of values and opinions.  That’s also fine.  But it does not mean you are right about it being a waste of time or more specifically an ego stroking contest.  

I can understand that in units and with soldiers that don’t live or work in a regimental system it may not matter to them. 

In a regiment CofC parades are milestones that are are marked with tradition and symbolism. 

You do you. I’ll do army.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (15 Jun 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> You are correct but the value that drill brings can be demonstrated through other, * more relevant tasks.*


I honestly would love to hear what your options are that would be cost, time, and PY neutral comparatively to a 2 hour parade every 12-24 months...


----------



## Halifax Tar (15 Jun 2022)

Remius said:


> The goal is a recognition of a COs past term and a welcome of the incoming.  It generally marks the end of the outgoing COs time in the regiment.   It’s an opportunity for the outgoing to review his unit and passing it on in good shape to the next.  Most if not all the CoCs I’ve been on involved one last chance for a CO to promote, recognize and award soldiers for various things.  Generally the COs family is recognized as well.  Followed by drinks and such in the messes.
> 
> Your view on CoCs being a giant ego stroking competition shows that you really don’t understand what they mean.  And that’s fine. I won’t change your mind and could care less as none of your opinions will matter when we go through our next CofC.    Ceremonies and ceremonial are *all* symbolic in nature.  From remembrance day, to funerals to freedom of the city parades to quarter guards to sentries at the tomb etc etc.  You choose to place more value on one over another based on your own set of values and opinions.  That’s also fine.  But it does not mean you are right about it being a waste of time or more specifically an ego stroking contest.
> 
> ...



How long do your CO tours last in the Regular CA ?


----------



## dangerboy (15 Jun 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> How long do your CO tours last in the Regular CA ?


They are on average about two years.


----------



## SupersonicMax (15 Jun 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> I honestly would love to hear what your options are that would be cost, time, and PY neutral comparatively to a 2 hour parade every 12-24 months...


A fly past after a regularly scheduled training mission on the day of the CoC.


----------



## OldSolduer (15 Jun 2022)

Remius said:


> The goal is a recognition of a COs past term and a welcome of the incoming.  It generally marks the end of the outgoing COs time in the regiment.   It’s an opportunity for the outgoing to review his unit and passing it on in good shape to the next.  Most if not all the CoCs I’ve been on involved one last chance for a CO to promote, recognize and award soldiers for various things.  Generally the COs family is recognized as well.  Followed by drinks and such in the messes.
> 
> Your view on CoCs being a giant ego stroking competition shows that you really don’t understand what they mean.  And that’s fine. I won’t change your mind and could care less as none of your opinions will matter when we go through our next CofC.    Ceremonies and ceremonial are *all* symbolic in nature.  From remembrance day, to funerals to freedom of the city parades to quarter guards to sentries at the tomb etc etc.  You choose to place more value on one over another based on your own set of values and opinions.  That’s also fine.  But it does not mean you are right about it being a waste of time or more specifically an ego stroking contest.
> 
> ...


Amen to this.

IF you don't like parades or think drill is irrelevant don't get posted to an infantry unit. Don't presume you know what's best for everyone.

Its what we do. I mean when I was in.....

We had a good number of "purple trade" soldiers who volunteered to do multiple tours with us. And yes they did drill with us no matter what DEU they were in.


----------



## Furniture (15 Jun 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> *Maybe there is a difference here with the RCAF and RCN.  All of my COs have called me by my first name; I’ve been on crew with most of them at some point.*  I’m not special or anything, and I call them Sir or ma’am but we tend to know each other a little better in the Air Force (and my first and last name is on my chest every day so…). Same as the DCOs and most Sqn Exec.  Our units are smaller and such so maybe that has something to do with it.
> 
> The last Wing CoC is attended ( seated, not in a Flt) was my first LRP CO handing over command of the Wing to another former CO of mine who I deployed with.  Maybe knowing the officers involved makes it less of a PITA event.
> 
> ...


I was Air Force for 21 years before switching to RCN. I had 1 CO call me by my first name, maybe it's different when you're air crew, but for many of us the air force isn't special, or even better than anywhere else. 

I had a closer working relationship with every CO I sailed with than even the best air force CO I had. 

Anyone remember that Afghanistan meme "Experiences May Vary", that's what the entire CAF is depending on trade, and postings. 

To the point about parades, a CoC is entirely about the CO leaving, and the one coming in. It's a holdover from the days when officers were the "betters" of the "men". 

Have a town hall broadcast on Teams, that way all pers see the new boss, and get to see the old boss off, but aren't forced to march up and down the square so the COs can feel special.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (15 Jun 2022)

btrudy said:


> Given that the same could be said for literally any group task, I'm not really sure why this is being used as some sort of defence for drill and parades. You see, it's the legalized violence in service of the country that does that. Not the walking around in formation.


Drill and ceremonial isn't a "group task;" it's tradition, cohesion, and discipline on display.

It's that discipline and the display of it that is an outward, public showing that we aren't a rabble of yahoo's with guns exercising the "legalized violence" you speak of. Hell even this rabble is starting to realize the illusion of a professional military force is part of looking legitimate.

Take it for what you want, but this is a major part of what makes a military force, military. Drill, Dress, Discipline, and Deportment will always have a place in our profession of arms.

Fly pasts, piping the side, all have a place. So does bashing the square to put on a proper show.


----------



## Remius (15 Jun 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> If you believe that fly pasts are NOT more relevant than drill for Air Force folks, well, I don’t know what to say.


I think fly pasts would be relevant.  

Why the airforce needed to get a tartan and pipe band though is odd.  😝


----------



## Halifax Tar (15 Jun 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Drill and ceremonial isn't a "group task;" it's tradition, cohesion, and discipline on display.
> 
> It's that discipline and the display of it that is an outward, public showing that we aren't a rabble of yahoo's with guns exercising the "legalized violence" you speak of. Hell even this rabble is starting to realize the illusion of a professional military force is part of looking legitimate.
> 
> ...



Remember, _*because its always the way we've done things*_ isn't good enough anymore. 

You need to differentiate here.  I haven't seen one person say drill and ceremonial have no place in the military, this has been specifically aimed at change of command parades. 

If someone can point out a real necessity for them to exist that exists of more than because its tradition I will relent.


----------



## FSTO (15 Jun 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Remember, _*because its always the way we've done things*_ isn't good enough anymore.
> 
> You need to differentiate here.  I haven't seen one person say drill and ceremonial have no place in the military, this has been specifically aimed at change of command parades.
> 
> If someone can point out a real necessity for them to exist that exists of more than because its tradition I will relent.


Recognize the outgoing CO, welcome the New CO. Good lord people it’s one day max.


----------



## PuckChaser (15 Jun 2022)

The "I have better work to do crowd" sure don't turn down the short day I've seen almost universally handed out after full change of command parades either...


----------



## rmc_wannabe (15 Jun 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> The "I have better work to do crowd" sure don't turn down the short day I've seen almost universally handed out after full change of command parades either...


Precisely this. If you have better work to do for a CoC parade, you better believe you'll have better work to do the next time you crow about wanting to go to TGIT, CISM Sports, or the other CAF activities that aren't listed in your Part 1 (or JDB thing on PaCE).


----------



## Furniture (15 Jun 2022)

FSTO said:


> Recognize the outgoing CO, welcome the New CO. Good lord people it’s one day max.


So when do we start parades for outgoing RSMs, Coxns, CSMs, and other NCM jobs? 

It's an archaic tradition tied directly to class... 

If we are doing parades to recognize people, why not have a massive parade for all pers posted in and out? Let every S3/Pte/Avr-Adm/Gen have a speech and a some flowers?


----------



## rmc_wannabe (15 Jun 2022)

Furniture said:


> So when do we start parades for outgoing RSMs, Coxns, CSMs, and other NCM jobs?
> 
> It's an archaic tradition tied directly to class...
> 
> If we are doing parades to recognize people, why not have a massive parade for all pers posted in and out? Let every S3/Pte/Avr-Adm/Gen have a speech and a some flowers?


We have Change of Appointment ceremonies for RSM/SSMs within the Army. We also do Mug Outs at Troop or Sqn level for all pers who are posted/moving along so they can get recognition.

There are ways and means to do this are all levels, and it starts with the Pl/Tp/Flt/Div Chains of Command putting the effort in to do so. I honestly get the vibe from this thread that there is something very wrong with the morale and well-being of folks wearing Blue in both shades.

I pity you all if a CoC parade has everyone below the rank of PO1/WO sharpening the guillotine.


----------



## PuckChaser (15 Jun 2022)

Furniture said:


> So when do we start parades for outgoing RSMs, Coxns, CSMs, and other NCM jobs?
> 
> It's an archaic tradition tied directly to class...
> 
> If we are doing parades to recognize people, why not have a massive parade for all pers posted in and out? Let every S3/Pte/Avr-Adm/Gen have a speech and a some flowers?


So firstly, we do have parades for ongoing RSMs, it's called a change of appointment (or change of stick) parade. I sat through one today, it had a reviewing officer and took 30 mintues.

Secondly, only a single member of a unit has the delegated authority to command on behalf of the superior commander and assume risk (within that delegated authorities and risk matrix). Yes, I'm sure a ton of our traditions are rooted in 18th century British classism, however if you want to think a S3/Pte/Avr has the same significance when they're posted than the CO, you've missed the boat here and maybe are better suited to the public service.


----------



## dimsum (15 Jun 2022)

Furniture said:


> I was Air Force for 21 years before switching to RCN. I had 1 CO call me by my first name, maybe it's different when you're air crew, but for many of us the air force isn't special, or even better than anywhere else.


It is.  A friend of mine also switched to the RCAF around the same time I did, but not to an aircrew trade.  They were in the unit and realized that it wasn't as laid-back as the stereotypical aircrew attitude and one of their co-workers said "oh, like aircrew?  Yeah, we're not like that."




Remius said:


> Why the airforce needed to get a tartan and pipe band though is odd. 😝


Is the Army and Navy _seriously_ going to call the Air Force out on having random uniform quirks?


----------



## SupersonicMax (15 Jun 2022)

For those that say it’s “just two hours,” typically, a CoC would have the unit conduct normal flying on Monday, a half day on Tuesday followed by towing all aircraft out of the hangar (including removing specialized maintenance equipment that was being used to troubleshoot/fix the aircraft and cleaning the hangar until Wednesday PM, at which point the unit would practice for the CoC.  Thursday AM would be setup finalization for the “2-hour” parade, which would occur on Thursday PM.  Friday would be left for putting everything back to the way it was on Tuesday AM with Monday off as a short “for the hard work with the parade.”  So, essentially a week away from generating aircraft and flying lines.  Not a great use of ressources.


----------



## Weinie (15 Jun 2022)

dimsum said:


> It is.  A friend of mine also switched to the RCAF around the same time I did, but not to an aircrew trade.  They were in the unit and realized that it wasn't as laid-back as the stereotypical aircrew attitude and one of their co-workers said "oh, like aircrew?  Yeah, we're not like that."
> 
> 
> 
> Is the Army and Navy _seriously_ going to call the Air Force out on having random uniform quirks?


Well, those wedges..........................


----------



## Weinie (15 Jun 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> For those that say it’s “just two hours,” typically, a CoC would have the unit conduct normal flying on Monday, a half day on Tuesday followed by towing all aircraft out of the hangar (including removing specialized maintenance equipment that was being used to troubleshoot/fix the aircraft and cleaning the hangar until Wednesday PM, at which point the unit would practice for the CoC.  Thursday AM would be setup finalization for the “2-hour” parade, which would occur on Thursday PM.  Friday would be left for putting everything back to the way it was on Tuesday AM with Monday off as a short “for the hard work with the parade.”  So, essentially a week away from generating aircraft and flying lines.  Not a great use of ressources.


So just parade on the apron in the spring/summer/fall. No need to move A/C, open the hangar doors, a perfectly decent backdrop for your CoC.


----------



## dimsum (15 Jun 2022)

Weinie said:


> Well, those wedges..........................


You mean the Army field service caps?


----------



## SupersonicMax (15 Jun 2022)

Weinie said:


> So just parade on the apron in the spring/summer/fall. No need to move A/C, open the hangar doors, a perfectly decent backdrop for your CoC.


Except when it rains.


----------



## Halifax Tar (15 Jun 2022)

FSTO said:


> Recognize the outgoing CO, welcome the New CO. Good lord people it’s one day max.



That certainly is a real necessity.









PuckChaser said:


> The "I have better work to do crowd" sure don't turn down the short day I've seen almost universally handed out after full change of command parades either...



If I don't participate in the parade I don't take the days. 

How about we don't do the parades so we don't have to add on the days the time wasted ?


----------



## Weinie (15 Jun 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> Except when it rains.


I have been told that the only two things that melt in rain is shit and sugar. You decide where you fit.


----------



## Furniture (15 Jun 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> We have Change of Appointment ceremonies for RSM/SSMs within the Army. We also do Mug Outs at Troop or Sqn level for all pers who are posted/moving along so they can get recognition.
> 
> There are ways and means to do this are all levels, and it starts with the Pl/Tp/Flt/Div Chains of Command putting the effort in to do so. I honestly get the vibe from this thread that there is something very wrong with the morale and well-being of folks wearing Blue in both shades.
> 
> I pity you all if a CoC parade has everyone below the rank of PO1/WO sharpening the guillotine.


Mug outs, and change of appointments I have seen have all been relatively informal, and more of small "ceremony",  whereas Change of Command parades tend to be a "parade" with marching and all that...  People aren't saying don't mark the change of command, they are saying a parade is hangover from the past. Have a ceremony, make speeches, hand out flowers, etc... just don't make people march up and down the square so the COs feel special. If you want parades, make them about the whole unit, or the whole CAF. Have an Ortona parade, or a Battle of the Atlantic parade, they serve a purpose for all members, not just the "aristocracy".

Lastly, I'm not below the PO1 rank, and I'm not sharpening any guillotines...



PuckChaser said:


> So firstly, we do have parades for ongoing RSMs, it's called a change of appointment (or change of stick) parade. I sat through one today, it had a reviewing officer and took 30 mintues.
> 
> Secondly, only a single member of a unit has the delegated authority to command on behalf of the superior commander and assume risk (within that delegated authorities and risk matrix). Yes, I'm sure a ton of our traditions are rooted in 18th century British classism, *however if you want to think a S3/Pte/Avr has the same significance when they're posted than the CO, you've missed the boat here and maybe are better suited to the public service.*



As I mentioned above, I've never seen a whole unit parade for a change of appointment, if it happens it's just as silly as a change of command. Have a ceremony, broadcast it on Teams so the whole team can see... Just don't make people spend days marching up and down a square so that Col/CWO Bloggins feels special.

Ah... the classic, if you don't see things my way, maybe you should quit line. How has that been working for the CAF lately?


----------



## SupersonicMax (15 Jun 2022)

Weinie said:


> I have been told that the only two things that melt in rain is shit and sugar. You decide where you fit.


You seriously propose conducting a CoC parade (signing and all) in the rain?  What is it again, promote the welfare of your subordinates?


----------



## FSTO (15 Jun 2022)

Furniture said:


> So when do we start parades for outgoing RSMs, Coxns, CSMs, and other NCM jobs?
> 
> It's an archaic tradition tied directly to class...
> 
> If we are doing parades to recognize people, why not have a massive parade for all pers posted in and out? Let every S3/Pte/Avr-Adm/Gen have a speech and a some flowers?


I think you’re being a bit silly. But that’s my opinion and not one sanctioned by the movers and shakers in the Navy nor the CAF


----------



## Halifax Tar (15 Jun 2022)

Weinie said:


> I have been told that the only two things that melt in rain is shit and sugar. You decide where you fit.



How does this guy keep getting away with posting this stuff ?


----------



## Halifax Tar (15 Jun 2022)

FSTO said:


> I think you’re being a bit silly. But that’s my opinion and not one sanctioned by the movers and shakers in the Navy nor the CAF



I think it's a bit silly to have a parade to recognize a couple years work by a massively paid person who's position just cycles people through every year and half to two years.  

Meanwhile the most of the folks were there before and will be there after too.  Still slugging away for the next skipper to get their kick at the can done.


----------



## Weinie (15 Jun 2022)

Furniture said:


> Ah... the classic, if you don't see things my way, maybe you should quit line. How has that been working for the CAF lately?


Perhaps we need to publicize the CAF in a new way. "You could be killed". It's a reality that is inherent in the job.


----------



## Furniture (15 Jun 2022)

FSTO said:


> I think you’re being a bit silly. But that’s my opinion and not one sanctioned by the movers and shakers in the Navy nor the CAF


To be fair, I was being intentionally silly. 

My point is, was, and will be, Change of Command parades are a hangover from a time when the officers were a different class, and the troops/sailors/airhumans were seen as inferior. 

I suspect a smaller, less formal gathering, with close friends and immediate subordinates would likely be more meaningful than a parade where the troops clearly hate being there, and are itching to leave.


----------



## Quirky (15 Jun 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> Except when it rains.


Don’t forget needing a 4-6 ship for a flyby.


----------



## Weinie (15 Jun 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> How does this guy keep getting away with posting this stuff ?


Ummmmmm. I pose questions that people answer. To wit, how do you recommend that I be censored? How do you get away with posting that I be censored?


----------



## Furniture (15 Jun 2022)

Weinie said:


> Perhaps we need to publicize the CAF in a new way. "You could be killed". It's a reality that is inherent in the job.


I'm 100% for that, let people know that they are signing up to risk their lives, and mental health for the nation. 

Just don't make them march up and down the square so a MWO/CWO/Maj/LCol/Col feels special.  (see how inclusive I was 😁)


----------



## SupersonicMax (15 Jun 2022)

Quirky said:


> Don’t forget needing a 4-6 ship for a flyby.


A 2-ship at most.  I really like how US Navy Fighter Squadrons do it.  An airborne lead change follow by a small ceremony after (sometimes in flight suit).


----------



## PuckChaser (15 Jun 2022)

Furniture said:


> As I mentioned above, I've never seen a whole unit parade for a change of appointment, if it happens it's just as silly as a change of command. Have a ceremony, broadcast it on Teams so the whole team can see... Just don't make people spend days marching up and down a square so that Col/CWO Bloggins feels special.
> 
> Ah... the classic, if you don't see things my way, maybe you should quit line. How has that been working for the CAF lately?


Ah the classic "lets do it on Teams" NCR mentality. You absolutely have no facts to support an assertion that change of command and appointment parades are making people quit the CAF. 

Being in the military requires military things. Traditions also evolve, which is why we're seeing a lot more sit down events or small guards and quick parades. Calling for the complete cessation of any military drill and ceremony is asking to turn the CAF into the public service. We should get rid of uniforms too, that might be too demanding to mantain.


----------



## Weinie (15 Jun 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> You seriously propose conducting a CoC parade (signing and all) in the rain?  What is it again, promote the welfare of your subordinates?


Sigh...............................


----------



## SupersonicMax (15 Jun 2022)

Weinie said:


> Sigh...............................


Please expand on your idea then.


----------



## Furniture (15 Jun 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> Ah the classic "lets do it on Teams" NCR mentality. You absolutely have no facts to support an assertion that change of command and appointment parades are making people quit the CAF.
> 
> Being in the military requires military things. Traditions also evolve, which is why we're seeing a lot more sit down events or small guards and quick parades. Calling for the complete cessation of any military drill and ceremony is asking to turn the CAF into the public service. We should get rid of uniforms too, that might be too demanding to mantain.


You're arguing against a strawman. 

I never said we should abandon all parades and drill. Go back through my entire post history and you will not see me argue for that. Go ahead... I have time...

Done? 

Good, now we can get to what I have actually argued for. 

I have argued for a reduced ceremony for change of command and change of appointment. A few people, generally those close to the person being swapped should be present for a ceremony. Broadcast that smaller ceremony on Teams for the entire CAF to see if they wish. 

We can/should still do the "big" events, Remembrance Day, Battle of the Atlantic, Battle of Britain, VE Day, VJ Day, Canadian Armed Forces Day...  In fact I think we should do far more for each of those days, but I think change of command parades are anachronistic.


----------



## Weinie (15 Jun 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> Ah the classic "lets do it on Teams" NCR mentality. You absolutely have no facts to support an assertion that change of command and appointment parades are making people quit the CAF.
> 
> Being in the military requires military things. Traditions also evolve, which is why we're seeing a lot more sit down events or small guards and quick parades. Calling for the complete cessation of any military drill and ceremony is asking to turn the CAF into the public service. We should get rid of uniforms too, that might be too demanding to mantain.


This.


----------



## SupersonicMax (15 Jun 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> Ah the classic "lets do it on Teams" NCR mentality. You absolutely have no facts to support an assertion that change of command and appointment parades are making people quit the CAF.


It’s rarely one thing that push people out but an amalgamation of dis-satisfiers. That’s one of those dis-satisfiers, at least in the RCAF.


----------



## OldSolduer (15 Jun 2022)

Furniture said:


> So when do we start parades for outgoing RSMs, Coxns, CSMs, and other NCM jobs?
> 
> It's an archaic tradition tied directly to class...


We don't - but as the RSM when I left I took the dais with the CO and received the eyes right. 

I think this thread is going no where. Everyone's mind - including mine -is made up so maybe it needs to be locked. 
CoC parades - at least in the Army probably aren't going anywhere and if you don't like that that's too damn bad. 

Like I said don't presume to speak for everyone. We won't agree on everything all the time. AND if the RCN and RCAF want to do it their way who am I to argue?


----------



## markppcli (15 Jun 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> The "I have better work to do crowd" sure don't turn down the short day I've seen almost universally handed out after full change of command parades either...


 I have never had a short day after a change of command.


----------



## OldSolduer (15 Jun 2022)

markppcli said:


> I have never had a short day after a change of command.


Generally a day or so after the parade was annual leave and there was usually a short day or two tacked on.


----------



## markppcli (15 Jun 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Generally a day or so after the parade was annual leave and there was usually a short day or two tacked on.


I meant specifically for doing the parade. I’d call that good scheduling, not a short as a reward for doing the damn thing.


----------



## Weinie (15 Jun 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> It’s rarely one thing that push people out but an amalgamation of dis-satisfiers. That’s one of those dis-satisfiers, at least in the RCAF.


Sigh.................OK, But an amalgamation of dis-satisfiers pushes us to believe that the candidate was not a strong candidate for the CAF in the first place.


----------



## OldSolduer (15 Jun 2022)

markppcli said:


> I meant specifically for doing the parade. I’d call that good scheduling, not a short as a reward for doing the damn thing.


I never received that either. The next day we were on leave.


----------



## SupersonicMax (15 Jun 2022)

Weinie said:


> Sigh.................OK, But an amalgamation of dis-satisfiers pushes us to believe that the candidate was not a strong candidate for the CAF in the first place.


Or perhaps the way we are doing things is archaic and can be modernized? Is expecting to be employed effectively and efficiently really an unrealistic demand?


----------



## Weinie (15 Jun 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> Or perhaps the way we are doing things is archaic and can be modernized? Is expecting to be employed effectively and efficiently really an unrealistic demand?


Not at all. But catering to individual demands is, and will lead to anarchy.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (15 Jun 2022)

As I recall the navies traditionally had all hands (if possible) assemble midships, where the Captain would read out his orders appointing him to command the ship. Marchpasts would be very much an army thing which air forces inherited due to their army roots.


----------



## SupersonicMax (15 Jun 2022)

Weinie said:


> Not at all. But catering to individual demands is, and will lead to anarchy.


When dis-satisfiers are common to most people, as indicated by the release interviews, we’re not catering to individual demand but to issues that are becoming systemic.


----------



## Furniture (15 Jun 2022)

Weinie said:


> Sigh.................OK, But an amalgamation of dis-satisfiers pushes us to believe that the candidate was not a strong candidate for the CAF in the first place.


Alternatively, it leads us to believe the CAF is not a desirable employer, and needs to change to attract and retain personnel.

I can't get uniforms. I have been RCN since March, and still don't have DEUs. I was supposed to be MC for a change of appointment today, but didn't have uniforms to participate in the ceremony. That is a dissatisfier.

I suppose that makes me a bad CAF member, and I should release to the PS....

EDIT: I also had to sit out a grad ceremony for a course I was the instructor for, because again, I didn't have DEU. It's entirely my fault for not predicting the CAF's inability to provide uniforms to it's members, and therefore my fault that I failed to have the correct uniforms at the right time. I hope Weinie will forgive me for despairing at the state of uniforms and ceremony in the CAF, and not banish me to the PS.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (15 Jun 2022)

Furniture said:


> So when do we start parades for outgoing RSMs, Coxns, CSMs, and other NCM jobs?



Change of Appointments has been happening for a long time. My Sqn just did one last week immediately before the CoC.  



Furniture said:


> It's an archaic tradition tied directly to class...



Is it class nowadays or…Command/responsibility based?    



Furniture said:


> If we are doing parades to recognize people, why not have a massive parade for all pers posted in and out? Let every S3/Pte/Avr-Adm/Gen have a speech and a some flowers?



This is where we are starting to go wrong in the CAF.   Rank has its responsibilities and also has its privileges.   We in uniform are NOT all equal despite the current climate…


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## rmc_wannabe (15 Jun 2022)

I am starting to see this thread becoming pedantic and an "US vs. THEM" between the Army and the RCN/RCAF. 

Different traditions and customs (or habits in the case of the RCAF) exist. We agree on that. Change of Command ceremonies are important. We all should agree with that. The 4 hour jug fuck that takes 7 weeks to plan? Definitely bad, needs to stop. Agreed.

As for parades being useless, or that we should only be holding them for Remembrance Day or other commemoration.... I don't think we will find consensus here. The RCAF is too busy, the RCN is too short staffed, and the CA has nothing better to do than bash the square. These are the prevailing arguments I'm seeing. 

I've made my position known and explained it at length. I have provided rebuttals as I saw fit. Anything else now is just hacking at bone. 

@Eye In The Sky did you end up getting your answer in all this?


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## Weinie (15 Jun 2022)

Furniture said:


> Alternatively, it leads us to believe the CAF is not a desirable employer, and needs to change to attract and retain personnel.
> 
> I can't get uniforms. I have been RCN since March, and still don't have DEUs. I was supposed to be MC for a change of appointment today, but didn't have uniforms to participate in the ceremony. That is a dissatisfier.
> 
> I suppose that makes me a bad CAF member, and I should release to the PS....


No, it just reflects the reality of current circumstances.....I will refrain from commenting on your QM. 

If your attitude is that bad in 4 months since enrolled, please release to PS. Please.


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## PuckChaser (15 Jun 2022)

Furniture said:


> Alternatively, it leads us to believe the CAF is not a desirable employer, and needs to change to attract and retain personnel.
> 
> I can't get uniforms. I have been RCN since March, and still don't have DEUs. I was supposed to be MC for a change of appointment today, but didn't have uniforms to participate in the ceremony. That is a dissatisfier.
> 
> ...


Oh look, false equivalencies. 

I'd argue lacking proper military uniforms and an atrocious supply/logistic system is more of a dissatisfier than doing a day or 2 of parade practice for a 1 hour parade every 2 years. But if you honestly think people are leaving the CAF because they have to do drill on occasion, I'd love to see even a shred of proof other than Reddit/Army.ca whining and complaining. 

I sat and watched the full student body of CMR do a full dress rehearsal for their graduation parade in 30+ degree weather a few weeks ago. Not a single one looked disgruntled the next day at the actual parade, where they looked incredible and their drill was on point. Maybe they should have just sat in chairs to honour 4 years of hard work, or done it on Zoom.


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## dimsum (15 Jun 2022)

Weinie said:


> If your attitude is that bad in 4 months since enrolled, please release to PS. Please.


I'll note that @Furniture has been in the CAF longer than 4 months.  They switched elements.


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## Furniture (15 Jun 2022)

Weinie said:


> No, it just reflects the reality of current circumstances.....I will refrain from commenting on your QM.
> 
> If your attitude is that bad in 4 months since enrolled, please release to PS. Please.


21 Years, and four months. I'll release when I no longer contribute to my occupation and the CAF...


PuckChaser said:


> Oh look, false equivalencies.
> 
> I'd argue lacking proper military uniforms and an atrocious supply/logistic system is more of a dissatisfier than doing a day or 2 of parade practice for a 1 hour parade every 2 years. But if you honestly think people are leaving the CAF because they have to do drill on occasion, I'd love to see even a shred of proof other than Reddit/Army.ca whining and complaining.
> 
> I sat and watched the full student body of CMR do a full dress rehearsal for their graduation parade in 30+ degree weather a few weeks ago. Not a single one looked disgruntled the next day at the actual parade, where they looked incredible and their drill was on point. Maybe they should have just sat in chairs to honour 4 years of hard work, or done it on Zoom.


What false equivalencies?

I said we should do smaller, more focused ceremonies. Your long winded example actually highlights what I was arguing for, rather than refuting it.

Those CMR Grads all have a vested interest in that parade, it's for them.  Would they be so happy to put on a parade for the Graduating class of CFSMET JMF 2201 in 30+ degree weather?


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## Eye In The Sky (15 Jun 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> For those that say it’s “just two hours,” typically, a CoC would have the unit conduct normal flying on Monday, a half day on Tuesday followed by towing all aircraft out of the hangar (including removing specialized maintenance equipment that was being used to troubleshoot/fix the aircraft and cleaning the hangar until Wednesday PM, at which point the unit would practice for the CoC.  Thursday AM would be setup finalization for the “2-hour” parade, which would occur on Thursday PM.  Friday would be left for putting everything back to the way it was on Tuesday AM with Monday off as a short “for the hard work with the parade.”  So, essentially a week away from generating aircraft and flying lines.  Not a great use of ressources.



Okay, that is way more involved than what happens at a place like ZX.  I can see why they put a crease in your wedge.


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## Weinie (15 Jun 2022)

dimsum said:


> I'll note that @Furniture has been in the CAF longer than 4 months.  They switched elements.


My apologies.


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## Eye In The Sky (15 Jun 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> A fly past after a regularly scheduled training mission on the day of the CoC.


 Fly past crew is definitely the best parade position! 😁


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## Eye In The Sky (15 Jun 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> @Eye In The Sky did you end up getting your answer in all this?


 
I think I did, about reply #6 on Page 1.   I love this forum and the way things swirl !


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## Weinie (15 Jun 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> Oh look, false equivalencies.
> 
> I'd argue lacking proper military uniforms and an atrocious supply/logistic system is more of a dissatisfier than doing a day or 2 of parade practice for a 1 hour parade every 2 years. But if you honestly think people are leaving the CAF because they have to do drill on occasion, I'd love to see even a shred of proof other than Reddit/Army.ca whining and complaining.
> 
> I sat and watched the full student body of CMR do a full dress rehearsal for their graduation parade in 30+ degree weather a few weeks ago. Not a single one looked disgruntled the next day at the actual parade, where they looked incredible and their drill was on point. Maybe they should have just sat in chairs to honour 4 years of hard work, or done it on Zoom.


I'm with PuckChaser on this. Don't like drill, get the fuck out of the CAF now. Good riddance. And don't say we need to cater to the snowflakes, we have a standard, like it or not.


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## Eye In The Sky (15 Jun 2022)

Furniture said:


> My point is, was, and will be, Change of Command parades are a hangover from a time when the officers were a different class, and the troops/sailors/*airhumans* were seen as inferior.



That. That is one of the best.  The best.  😂

8 pages and there it is, that diamond in the rough…


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## Eye In The Sky (15 Jun 2022)

markppcli said:


> I have never had a short day after a change of command.


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## Furniture (15 Jun 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


>


Awesome movie reference... One of my favourites from Tom.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (15 Jun 2022)

Is this thread going anywhere besides the drain I'm about to pull the plug on??

Bruce


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## OldSolduer (16 Jun 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Is this thread going anywhere besides the drain I'm about to pull the plug on??
> 
> Bruce


Its done.


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