# Hillier says Forces in 'war for talent' to boost ranks - CP



## Yrys (23 May 2008)

Hillier says Forces in 'war for talent' to boost ranks



> HALIFAX  -- The Canadian Forces is in a domestic "war for talent'' as it attempts to boost its ranks, Canada's top general said Friday. In an address to the Nova Scotia
> legislature, Gen. Rick Hillier said the military is competing to attract a shrinking demographic of "select young people'' between the ages of 18 and 29.
> 
> "We're meeting our objectives, but this is one in which we can't let up because we need to grow the Canadian Forces,'' Hillier told the audience of politicians and military
> ...



Comments on the article link


----------



## KingKikapu (23 May 2008)

The true irony is that despite an increase in recruiting required to counter the baby boom egress, some professions still lack the training spaces.  15 spots for ANAV DEO is kind of paltry.  I'm sure the hundreds of pilot applicants would agree.  Them's the breaks I suppose.


----------



## MedTechStudent (23 May 2008)

The military career has always had its allures as well as its deterring aspects.  Just a matter of personal choice like its always been IMO.  People that have gone to school for a long time to earn a very technical degree might not want to put themselves into harms way, and feel entitled to a nice safe high paying civilian job.  Thats their right.  It also does not help things that for the last few years there has been a bloody war going on.  

The idea of going to war is in no way as romantic or appealing as it was in say in the early 1900s or 1940s  The honor, commitment, and dedication are the same, but the politics are different, or if not different than at the least a huge recruitment roadblock.  Canada and the rest of the world has a moral debate on weather NATO should even be conducting the operations.  Just so you know I am in no way saying that Canadian Forces presence overseas is not necessary.  It just seams that ever since Operation Anaconda started this whole chain of events and military occupation overseas, its been a huge argument on whether we (NATO) should be over there.  My point is, some people might hear nothing from family and friends except how "awful we and other countries are for getting involved over there."  Complete rubbish I know, but if thats all you ever hear from people or the media then that is not a good incentive to join the military.    Politics politics politics arrrgh! 

I think that recruiting will always be a problem in the CF, its just hard to attract people to the line of work.  That being said they got me didn't they?  


As I said, people in the end I think will make their own choice on what they want.  And if we can come up with a way to draw more people in who are enthusiastic about the job, then thats great!  I'll be the first to pamphlet my old high school.  ;D

Cheers!


----------



## armyguy62 (23 May 2008)

I think the biggest detriment to recruiting is due to our history of  "peacekeeping". Suddenly we are in a shooting war and 99% of the Canandian population is upset because the soldiers carry weapons that actually shoot ( did they ever realize that the navy carries Harpoons, the Air force carries Sidewinders... for a reason??) Had the Canadian Armed Forces done a better job of explaining why we were in such demand as peacekeepers we might well be better served today.  Civilians need to realize that the best peacekeepers are the best soldiers.  Warring factions do NOT respect the UN flag, they do however respect well trained, well armed soldiers. Despite what most Canadians think, peacekeeping is NOT about handing out teddy bears, hugs, kisses and food parcels......


----------



## aesop081 (23 May 2008)

KingKikapu said:
			
		

> 15 spots for ANAV DEO is kind of paltry.



Thats only DEO. More navigator candidates will come from other programs as well. Also, with newer aircraft comming online that have no navigator you have to consider that there might just be a reduced need to train people. Witht the 2 acoustic operator seats on the CP-140 being taken away from Navs, it reduces the need even further.


----------



## MedTechStudent (23 May 2008)

armyguy62 said:
			
		

> Warring factions do NOT respect the UN flag, they do however respect well trained, well armed soldiers.



I agree with that, only I think there is a difference between "fear" and "respect."  Like the US Military for instance, over 22 billion dollars of Spirits alone.  On top of the God knows how many more billions on everything else.  One of the best equipped militaries in the world, but they still always seam to be caught doing embarrassing things as you can see by all the "Oh look what the US Army did!" threads and articles on this site.  I don't think for them, in the eyes of the enemy at least its a matter of respect... its more like "oh  no here comes the US with their huge guns."  You can't expect enemy combatants to respect you if you keep getting caught with your hands in the cookie jar.  

I think Canada's way of doing things has given us respect, or at least a little admiration.  I travel a lot, from Jamaica to Prague and the one thing I have always loved is how much nicer people over there treat you the minute you tell them that "no no I'm Canadian not American"


----------



## daftandbarmy (23 May 2008)

[Insert Random Name] said:
			
		

> Wow, look at the comments section, it's a clusterf*** right now.
> 
> As a civilian, I'm wondering how many of those people actually did serve, and how many are pretending that they did service, and how many that are just adding gas to the fire.
> 
> ...



If you look at the recent TV ad campaign you could say that the guy has a case for a lawsuit based on false advertising. You won't see anyone doing anything related to real warfighting in those ads.


----------



## cavalryman (23 May 2008)

I would say most of the so-called "ex-military" in the CTV.CA comments section are either posers trying to discredit the CF, or individuals who saw the military as just another "job", instead of a vocation.  Breaking news for them - you don't get rich soldiering, you don't live a comfortable life - you give up the comforts of civvie street to serve your country.  If you can't hack it, please don't let the door hit you in the a$$ on the way out.

 Funny to see so many bitter folks in one thread though.. .makes me wonder how many of them are actually ex-CF members, and how many are trolls  :


----------



## WannaBeFlyer (23 May 2008)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> You won't see anyone doing anything related to real warfighting in those ads.


THANK YOU! I was biting my tongue on that one.


----------



## MedTechStudent (23 May 2008)

As harsh and bleak as those comments are under the article, its just the other side to a story.  On this site, most of its members are happy active CF members, and some of us are not used to hearing or reading things like that.  I know I'm not.  But thats just how some people feel, its what they took out of the experience.  Some people up there might be lying, or just trying to get attention, but we won't ever really no so I just try try to read what they say, remember it and take it with a grain of salt.  If I think about comments like that too long then it just upsets me.  Just a shame thought, because I bet another reason people might not be looking to join up, is reading things like _that_.

Ps.  One guy comments that "I do not to well In school, but I'm intelligent" or something like that.  Then says "However as stated promotion does not often correspond with hardwork, intelligence and personality."     Well, if you were a "hard worker" than you probably would have done better in school don't you think?!   

Arrrgh see I'm getting mad already.  :-X


----------



## KingKikapu (23 May 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Thats only DEO. More navigator candidates will come from other programs as well. Also, with newer aircraft comming online that have no navigator you have to consider that there might just be a reduced need to train people. Witht the 2 acoustic operator seats on the CP-140 being taken away from Navs, it reduces the need even further.



Yeah I know the other streams are more plentiful, but they unfortunately do not apply to my situation.  I spent many hard years getting my degree only to find out how restrictive my path choice is.  Had I the chance to do it again, I would have elected for a different route.  And yeah, there's definitely a smaller/different role for ANAVs to play these days.  I suppose my bitching has just as much to do with the lack of the well defined need for classically trained navigators as the numbers situation.  Still, I was under the impression that it was currently a red trade, and coupled with the CF recruitment expansion, you'd figure the numbers would go up and not down.  I did not know about the Aesop taking responsibility for more nav seats.  What is the current crew distribution?


----------



## aesop081 (23 May 2008)

KingKikapu said:
			
		

> you'd figure the numbers would go up and not down.



IIRC you are correct, Anav is a "red" trade but for the life of me i cannot figure out why. CF expansion does not mean a need for greater numbers of navigator as the number of aircraft seats for them is decreasing. 



> I did not know about the Aesop taking responsibility for more nav seats.  What is the current crew distribution?



The current crew config has 2 pilots, one flight engineer, 3 AES Ops (dry sensors), 2 navigators ( wet sensors) , TACNAV and NAVCOM ( both navigators by trade).


The first AES Op to go acoustics will be trained this fall and this will start the transition period where both Navs and AES Ops will man the 2 seats. Once the turnover is complete th crew will be comprised  of 2 pilots, one flight engineer, 3 AES Ops (dry sensors), 2 AES Ops (wet sensors) and 2 navigators ( TACNAV and NAVCOM)


----------



## UnrulyCanuck (24 May 2008)

armyguy62 said:
			
		

> I think the biggest detriment to recruiting is due to our history of  "peacekeeping". Suddenly we are in a shooting war and 99% of the Canandian population is upset because the soldiers carry weapons that actually shoot ( did they ever realize that the navy carries Harpoons, the Air force carries Sidewinders... for a reason??) Had the Canadian Armed Forces done a better job of explaining why we were in such demand as peacekeepers we might well be better served today.  Civilians need to realize that the best peacekeepers are the best soldiers.  Warring factions do NOT respect the UN flag, they do however respect well trained, well armed soldiers. Despite what most Canadians think, peacekeeping is NOT about handing out teddy bears, hugs, kisses and food parcels......



I think the misconception many Canadians think still is that Canada's military role is and always will be non-combat role. The country just can't seem to get their minds into the fact that we a military trained to fight. And there is still the idea that the Americans or the Brits will defend us if we are ever attacked. When I told co-workers that I am considering leaving my civilian job for the Air Force, their first response was "*At least you're not in the US or UK military. They are getting slaughtered over there*.". I even get the usual "_*Canada still has a military?*_" response too.


----------



## MedTechStudent (24 May 2008)

UnrulyCanuck said:
			
		

> "*At least you're not in the US or UK military. They are getting slaughtered over there*.". I even get the usual "_*Canada still has a military?*_" response too.



Wow thats ignorant, I would hardly call *96* UK fatalities a "slaughter."  As for Canada having a military, yes indeed its not like we just "peaced out" after taking lil' old Vimy Ridge.  ;D


----------



## UnrulyCanuck (24 May 2008)

MedTechStudent said:
			
		

> Wow thats ignorant, I would hardly call *96* UK fatalities a "slaughter."  As for Canada having a military, yes indeed its not like we just "peaced out" after taking lil' old Vimy Ridge.  ;D



The country just doesn't take its military history seriously.


----------



## MedTechStudent (24 May 2008)

And its a shame, because we're quite good at what we do.  Not me personally of course, just the forces in general.  Mr Rob Furlong   still has the World Distance Record right?  Eat your heart out UK/ USA


----------



## rmc_wannabe (24 May 2008)

MedTechStudent said:
			
		

> Mr Rob Furlong   still has the World Distance Record right?  Eat your heart out UK/ USA



And sadly, that too is a point of contention with some of the Canadian population. God forbid we take pride in a well trained sniper that pulled off something spectacular.  :

I think that recruiting is going to be a hard thing for the forces in the next couple of years, because the youth waiting in the wings aren't suited for military service. I'm pretty fresh out of the meat factory (education system) and I remember seeing a lot of "instant gratification syndrome." In which, students wanted the A, the credit, and their diploma without a desire to put any effort in. Imagine that same student as a recruit wanting to be a Tank driver, but not wanting to go through BMQ? I know this is using a pretty big brush to paint with but its just an observation. 

In addition, the education system it seems doesn't show the military as appealing. I remember trying to get information from my "Guidance" department and only finding blank stares and a 2001 Year in Review video. Not to mention feeling like you were "stupid" or "a failure" for not pursuing higher education. 

Hopefully things improve, I'd like to think there will be another generation there when I'm no longer on the bottom rung


----------



## X-mo-1979 (24 May 2008)

MedTechStudent said:
			
		

> And its a shame, because we're quite good at what we do.  Not me personally of course, just the forces in general.  Mr Rob Furlong   still has the World Distance Record right?  Eat your heart out UK/ USA



"War for talent"

It's funny you brought up Mr Furlong as an example of talent.He released.

Maybe look retention of your talented.

It's the small things that add up to talented people getting out.Like clerks messing up and finding a pay check 400 dollars short,while your deployed somewhere.Or 12 months of training for a 6 month tour.Family comes ahead of the army in many cases,I personally don't agree with a year long of training away,and I don't appreciate my wife having to cope with unforeseen mishaps in my pay due to someones laziness/neglect of duty.


----------



## MedTechStudent (24 May 2008)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> It's funny you brought up Mr Furlong as an example of talent.He released.



Indeed he did, but was that not due to the 4 years or scrutiny and backlash he received while the investigation into whether or not he desecrated an enemy body in the field was being conducted?  

I can somewhat understand his distain for the CF after an ordeal like that.  So you know, he is now a Police Officer in Edmonton.  

I just admire him, that he was one of the first four Canadians in during Operation Anaconda.  And he brought a certain level of global recognition to the Canadian Forces sniper training programs.

EDIT: 





			
				X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> It's the small things that add up to talented people getting out.Like clerks messing up and finding a pay check 400 dollars short,while your deployed somewhere.Or 12 months of training for a 6 month tour.Family comes ahead of the army in many cases,I personally don't agree with a year long of training away,and I don't appreciate my wife having to cope with unforeseen mishaps in my pay due to someones laziness/neglect of duty.



I agree completely and I hope I never get caught on the short end of that administrative stick.  I know it can't be easy.


----------



## X-mo-1979 (25 May 2008)

MedTechStudent said:
			
		

> Indeed he did, but was that not due to the 4 years or scrutiny and backlash he received while the investigation into whether or not he desecrated an enemy body in the field was being conducted?
> 
> I can somewhat understand his distain for the CF after an ordeal like that.  So you know, he is now a Police Officer in Edmonton.
> 
> I just admire him, that he was one of the first four Canadians in during Operation Anaconda.  And he brought a certain level of global recognition to the Canadian Forces sniper training programs.



It's sad that the CF had to lose a talent like that.We have to look at retention.Peroid.Fresh blood is great,but nothing compares to the crusty Cpl's and the Snr NCO's with many years of military experience.


----------



## MedTechStudent (25 May 2008)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> It's sad that the CF had to lose a talent like that.We have to look at retention.Peroid.Fresh blood is great,but nothing compares to the crusty Cpl's and the Snr NCO's with many years of military experience.



Indeed, that way there would be less newbie recruits like I'm soon to be, and more "crusty" Cpls to give me good advice.  ;D

And yes its a real shame about Cpl Furlong, I would like very much to meet that guy and get his story if he were kind enough to share it.


----------



## WannaBeFlyer (25 May 2008)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> nothing compares to the crusty Cpl's and the Snr NCO's with many years of military experience.



I agree. I recently transferred within the Reserves and the Cpl's & Snr NCO's have been the main reason I have been so happy with my transfer.


----------



## EW (25 May 2008)

rmc_wannabe said:
			
		

> ....I think that recruiting is going to be a hard thing for the forces in the next couple of years, because the youth waiting in the wings aren't suited for military service. ...............



As compared to which generation that was suited for military service in the past fifty years?  How do you think the old soldiers in the sixties and seventies felt when they saw the flower children of those times? They must have thought it was the end of the gene pool.  This coming generation will turn out quite fine I'm sure.  The system will likely have to adjust a bit, but in the end the core values of learning teamwork and developing leadership will shine through.  Those are requirements for self preservation in the military and people will always do what they need to do to survive.  Things might go a little left or right of center once in awhile, but every once in awhile something will come up to keep things on track.

Seems that every generation likes to think that things are one step away from falling apart.


----------



## Yrys (25 May 2008)

EW said:
			
		

> How do you think the old soldiers in the sixties and seventies felt when they saw the flower children of those times? They must have thought it was the end of the gene pool.



Interesting point. Anyone here that went army in those decades ? How did the flower children reacted ? 
And your new colleagues, the soldiers ?


----------



## rifleman (25 May 2008)

Just like we tend to train for previous wars, we continue to recruit for previous generations. If the potential recruits are different, then we have to find a different methods for recruiting. As for their potential for military service, they work out just fine.


----------



## Drummy (25 May 2008)

Yrys said:
			
		

> Interesting point. Anyone here that went army in those decades ? How did the flower children reacted ?
> And your new colleagues, the soldiers ?



Well, I joined in the 50's(not a flower child) and the Cpls and Sgts(WW2 and Korea vets) involved with us thought that most of us wouldn't make past week 10.

We did though, and then thought that the ones coming after us were the donkeys of the decade. And so it continues.  

Drummy


----------



## Booked_Spice (25 May 2008)

I think that the we need to look at the " Retention aspect" We are loosing valuable members everyday due to circumstances the forces can control.

For example:

Getting a 6 week Tasking then home for 48 hours then getting tasked out again for another 8 weeks because we are short of bodies. Coming home for 3 weeks leave then start a year of work up training.

The members were told that the pace is not going to stop. So from a spouses point of view. I am looking at for the next 2 and half years, my husband will not be home. I know for a fact that 4 of my friends husbands have put their releases in due to the pace and no home time. 

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## aesop081 (25 May 2008)

Booked_Spice said:
			
		

> We are loosing valuable members everyday due to circumstances the forces can control.



Ok, just what is it exactly, in your opinion, that is causing retention issues that the CF can control ?


----------



## Booked_Spice (25 May 2008)

If there are not enough able bodies to run some of the courses, then how about cancelling some or running them at a different time. I am not talking about recruitment training but some sniper courses ect.. I don't know if this is possible as I am not well educated in military aspects.  So I will apologize upfront if my thinking is incorrect.

Also, if the company is going on the next tour and work up training is coming up, we need to utilize other companies  to conduct some of the courses, again if this is possible.

All I know is 2 and a half years from home is a long time. It takes its toll not only on the family but on the member as well. I know for a fact that alot of members are reaching the " Burn out" stage. I cannot speak on behalf of them but I have heard the rants and raves. If they achieve this " burn out " stage then how good of a combat soldier will they be in operations? Like I said, I know of some members that have put their release in. I also know of some that have already released due to the pace and some other political red tape.

If the army releases are up 13 percent over all other trades. This needs to be looked at. I am sure their are other causes. But this needs to be investigated and solutions need to be brought forward. It will not help the Army if we are loosing valuable combat experience to things that can or might be controlled.


----------



## aesop081 (25 May 2008)

Booked_Spice said:
			
		

> If there are not enough able bodies to run some of the courses, then how about cancelling some or running them at a different time.



Cancelling courses only compounds the shortage of trained personel. This leads to people going over on operations more frequently.




> I am not talking about recruitment training but some sniper courses ect..



We need snipers to support operations. If we dont get newly-trained snipers that means we have to deploye the old ones again and again and........That leads them to leave the CF....round and round we go.



> Also, if the company is going on the next tour and work up training is coming up, we need to utilize other companies  to conduct some of the courses, again if this is possible.



Maybe that "other company" you are refering to , is the one that just came back from tour. Maybe they wouldnt mind some home time as well. See what i am getting at ? IMHO, its lose-lose.



> It will not help the Army if we are loosing valuable combat experience to things that can or might be controlled.



The government controls the pace of operations. Most other things that the CF has to do is required to sustain and support those operations. I know that there are things the CF can control ( lenght of pre-deployement training anyone ?) but IMHO, we are in a perfect storm. We do not have the manpower we need and we dont have the resources to correct that situation.


----------



## blacktriangle (25 May 2008)

Booked_Spice said:
			
		

> I think that the we need to look at the " Retention aspect" We are loosing valuable members everyday due to circumstances the forces can control.
> 
> For example:
> 
> ...



Just as they burn out the Reg Force, the slow CT process makes it very discouraging for res members to step up and fill the void. I hate to bitch, but they seem to put so much emphasis getting fresh troops they forget about who they already have. Excellent course reports, perfect attendance, stepping up to help pers shortages...doesn't seem to matter. 

I'm 18, not going to school next year, and looking to step up...I'm not looking to be rich, or to be treated amazing. Just want the chance to do my job, is that so much to ask?

Until then, I just spend everyday at the beach.  8)


----------



## aesop081 (25 May 2008)

popnfresh said:
			
		

> the slow CT process makes



The CT process is "robing Peter to pay Paul" IMHO. Its not a long term solution to the RegF shortages and doesnt help reserve units keeping experience at the unit level.


----------



## Booked_Spice (25 May 2008)

Thanks CDN,

I understand it is a lose- lose situation. I also understand without the resources it is hard to manage. But it is frustrating to see so many people who have great experience and leadership throwing in the towel. This doesn't help matters, it makes it worse. I am not sure there is a solution to the amount of releases going in, but  like I mentioned it should be investigated why the army is double compared to other areas. I am sure there are more reasons other then the pace. If those reasons can be rectified then maybe we can have more retention. More retention equals more resources.

Thanks


----------



## blacktriangle (25 May 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> The CT process is "robing Peter to pay Paul" IMHO. Its not a long term solution to the RegF shortages and doesnt help reserve units keeping experience at the unit level.


I would agree with that conclusion in some instances. 

However, if you were to see what I actually do on a day to day basis (at least where I am)  you might agree that 6 months from now I will bring more to the table as a RegF Pte then I will as a reserve Cpl. Spaces need to be filled, so I say fill them. 

For units/trades in the res that really do nothing on an average workday, and can't train properly, the regs might as well get the guys that want to soldier. There will be plenty of once a weekers and Class B lifers to fill the gap I'm sure.


----------



## Big Red (25 May 2008)

Why are there not retention bonuses for EVERY trade? Could you not give an infantry Pte whos basic engagement is up $100,000 and still come out ahead?


----------



## Yrys (25 May 2008)

Big Red said:
			
		

> Could you not give an infantry Pte whos basic engagement is up *$100,000* and still come out ahead?



Isn't that a bit much ?


----------



## aesop081 (25 May 2008)

Big Red said:
			
		

> Why are there not retention bonuses for EVERY trade? Could you not give an infantry Pte whos basic engagement is up $100,000 and still come out ahead?



While i fully support bonuses when one re-signs, i do not think that it will significantly help the situation we are in now.

my 2 cents


----------



## Big Red (25 May 2008)

Yrys said:
			
		

> Isn't that a bit much ?



What are the costs associated with recruiting, basic training, trades training, QL4s, workup trg, etc he takes in his first three years? When someone releases you lose all of that, plus their experience.

$100k is just a number I threw out, I'm sure a much smaller amount would entice some to stay in. Right now AFAIK there is no incentive to sign your next contract besides keeping your job.


----------



## QV (25 May 2008)

Not only would that help retention, but also recruitment.  Everybody loves a big lump sum cheque.


----------



## aesop081 (25 May 2008)

QV said:
			
		

> Not only would that help retention, but also recruitment.  Everybody loves a big lump sum cheque.



Until people are back at the point of rundown and no home time and then they figure out that the money isnt worth it. Bonuses alone will accomplish nothing in the long term.

IMHO of course


----------



## QV (25 May 2008)

No, not by itself.  But if bonuses help retention and recruiting then manpower will be up and tour burnout down.


----------



## Old Sweat (25 May 2008)

For whatever it is worth, and free advice is usually worth what it costs the recipient, on Friday I attended a briefing for the Ottawa Gunners by our Colonel Commandant. LGen Leslie was in attendance for part of it and stayed to take questions. The subject of tour lengths, time away from home, retention, etc came up. He is a very smart guy and he admitted he doesn't have all (or many) of the answers. However, he did say that the army is willing to look at any well thought out solution to fix part or all of the dilemma.


----------



## Booked_Spice (25 May 2008)

To be Honest, If Hubby were to call it quits, money wouldn't help. It would build me a new Barn, however if he is not here to build it, then what good is the money for? It is hard enough when he is gone however long.... MOney can never replace the time he has spent away from his kids and everything that he has missed and will miss for his call of duty.


----------



## rifleman (25 May 2008)

Booked_Spice said:
			
		

> But it is frustrating to see so many people who have great experience and leadership throwing in the towel. This doesn't help matters, it makes it worse.



That is probably the most frustrating, being told there is no end in sight. Some solutions;
-Prioritize work and get rid of unneccessary crap.
-Shorten courses by "no-training" portions, instead of increasing the training day.
-Utilize re-coursing, instead of reteaching evenings and weekends for 1 person.
-Empty the reserves of every person willing to be "full time".
-Actually make the attempt to meet QOL issues instead of saying if you don't like it "get out".

Signing bonuses are short term solutions and I don't think really address the issue. Just a few suggestions here


----------



## aesop081 (25 May 2008)

rifleman said:
			
		

> -Prioritize work and get rid of unneccessary crap.



So it begs to question...what crap ?



> -Actually make the attempt to meet QOL issues instead of saying if you don't like it "get out".



Please tell what QOL issue has yet to be resolved


----------



## rifleman (25 May 2008)

I guess one man's crap is another man's bread and butter, however I do not concede to there is no end in sight. I see crap as, doing things that do not contribute to the mission. Things that extend the work day so even when you get to sleep in your own bed, thats all you do sleep.

As for QOL, I've seen plenty of people being told to get out, if they don't want to get posted, before anyone even knows why? I've personally gone to bat for troops recommending that we do not accept their release and instead consider other avenues, just to have highers blame the troop for trying to snivel out of a posting. 

CDN Aviator, I guess the real question is "whats your solution?" or are you going to continue to just be part of the "no solution"?


----------



## aesop081 (25 May 2008)

rifleman said:
			
		

> As for QOL, I've seen plenty of people being told to get out, if they don't want to get posted,



Boo freaking ooh !!

You will NEVER be able to please everyone when it comes to postings. People dont want to move and then turn around and complain they dont get promoted. Schools have to be staffed and personel has to be rotated in and out of then schools so that experience gets passed on beyond the unit level. Out of trade postings have to be staffed as well.....




> CDN Aviator, I guess the real question is "whats your solution?" or are you going to continue to just be part of the "no solution"?



My solution is well beyond the control  of the CF..........


----------



## rifleman (25 May 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Boo freaking ooh !!
> 
> You will NEVER be able to please everyone when it comes to postings. People dont want to move and then turn around and complain they dont get promoted. Schools have to be staffed and personel has to be rotated in and out of then schools so that experience gets passed on beyond the unit level. Out of trade postings have to be staffed as well.....


no you won't be able to please everyone, but the default shouldn't be 'Boo freaking ooh !!' or 'Get out'



			
				CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> My solution is well beyond the control  of the CF..........



Well, pray tell what is it? I for one only worry about things I can possibly change and never give up. I definitely don't use 'hope' or 'ignore it and it will go away" as COAs


----------



## aesop081 (25 May 2008)

rifleman said:
			
		

> Well, pray tell what is it?



Nothing short of a medium-term operational pause concurrent with a significant ( and steady for several years) increase in the budget.



			
				rifleman said:
			
		

> I definitely don't use 'hope' or 'ignore it and it will go away" as COAs



If i used those as COAs i would end up as a smoking hole in the ground.


----------



## rifleman (25 May 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Nothing short of a medium-term operational pause concurrent with a significant ( and steady for several years) increase in the budget.



okay realistically, whats a solution?


----------



## X-mo-1979 (25 May 2008)

rifleman said:
			
		

> -Prioritize work and get rid of unneccessary crap.



I agree.Especially during redundant workup training.We are the best trained army in the world so they say,yet we train as if were a army of conscripts IMHO.



			
				rifleman said:
			
		

> -Shorten courses by "no-training" portions, instead of increasing the training day.


I don't agree.The reason some people get out totally is due to frustration at people getting by on courses by the skin of their teeth,while you work your butt off....then he gets promoted ahead of you cause he is a social butterfly.



			
				rifleman said:
			
		

> -Utilize re-coursing, instead of reteaching evenings and weekends for 1 person.



Utilize releases.Everyone wants something to be proud in...ever been in a section at work with 20 years worth of bottom thirds?
Makes your life busy.



			
				rifleman said:
			
		

> -Empty the reserves of every person willing to be "full time".
> -



Again I have to agree.Maybe making it sorta like a casting call once per year and CT En mass.Anyone who wants a CT come to certain central locations,rations and quarters while their files and medicals are done and given new capbadges and jobs on the spot.Sort of like a "recruitment drive" for reservist to CT once a year.



			
				rifleman said:
			
		

> -Actually make the attempt to meet QOL issues instead of saying if you don't like it "get out".



QOL is just too hard to deal with I believe. However QOL could be improved if we look at HOW LONG we train and realise it's redundant thus increasing QOL en mass for the troops by spending more time with family's.
Maple guardian was a waste of time after doing southern bear. 45 days away from my family where I learned nothing/my troops learned nothing.


----------



## aesop081 (25 May 2008)

rifleman said:
			
		

> okay realistically, whats a solution?



I know its unrealistic unfortunately. But simply offering bonuses will not help in the long run. QOL is, IMHO, setteled. Your comments about postings will never go away. I know for a fact that career managers do everything they can to accomodate members but a line has to be drawn somehwere. I dont know what the solution is, i know there is one but its not going to happen anytime soon.......


----------



## rifleman (25 May 2008)

MedTechStudent said:
			
		

> Sorry now I'm lost, did you not just quote the answer to the question your asking?  ???



The point is that I don't have control over the government, and typically a slow down in operations will cause a slow down in funding. We only look at updating and acquiring new gear when we are using the old crap. I can, however, affect changes at my level, with support from higher. That is what I consider realistic


----------



## MedTechStudent (25 May 2008)

rifleman said:
			
		

> The point is that I don't have control over the government, and typically a slow down in operations will cause a slow down in funding. We only look at updating and acquiring new gear when we are using the old crap. I can, however, affect changes at my level, with support from higher. That is what I consider realistic



Ok gotcha!


----------



## rifleman (25 May 2008)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> I don't agree.The reason some people get out totally is due to frustration at people getting by on courses by the skin of their teeth,while you work your butt off....then he gets promoted ahead of you cause he is a social butterfly.
> 
> Utilize releases.Everyone wants something to be proud in...ever been in a section at work with 20 years worth of bottom thirds?
> Makes your life busy.



I was refering to courses that should take 10 weeks, being squished into 7, instead of getting rid of a PO (a little risk management there but better than trying to do it all and acomplishing nothing) Basically I'm talking about Mobilization MOSIDs. As for the bottom third, there is always a bottom third. I think I've done quite well.... ;D Afterall, someone has to make the future Generals look good.



			
				X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Again I have to agree.Maybe making it sorta like a casting call once per year and CT En mass.Anyone who wants a CT come to certain central locations,rations and quarters while their files and medicals are done and given new capbadges and jobs on the spot. Sort of like a "recruitment drive" for reservist to CT once a year.


 I'm not saying make them reg force, just offer contracts, keep their cap badges, who cares




			
				X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> QOL is just too hard to deal with I believe. However QOL could be improved if we look at HOW LONG we train and realise it's redundant thus increasing QOL en mass for the troops by spending more time with family's.
> Maple guardian was a waste of time after doing southern bear. 45 days away from my family where I learned nothing/my troops learned nothing.



When I speak of QOL, I'm not thinking about the QOL program, just things that make people enjoy what they do. Its about learning what works for each individual and making the attempt. For me, a signing bonus means nothing (well except a new house or truck), red tape removal is most important for me.


----------



## God56 (25 May 2008)

I'd say that its getting more tempting for me and a few of my friends, at one point all wanted to go reg force once we were done school, now two are trying out for the rcmp because they pay higher and you don't have to worry about deployments as much. At first I figured good  if you just wanted the money then your better off doing your own thing. Now I personally I was having second thoughts just because I'd never get to see any of my family. I'll probably still go reg force just because the army got into my head before I even knew what I wanted to do with the rest of my life, at the young age of 16. Its just tempting to go into a civie job even though all I'd do and still do is day dream about the army when I'm in a boring class.


----------



## rifleman (26 May 2008)

God56 said:
			
		

> I'd say that its getting more tempting for me and a few of my friends, at one point all wanted to go reg force once we were done school, now two are trying out for the rcmp because they pay higher and you don't have to worry about deployments as much. At first I figured good  if you just wanted the money then your better off doing your own thing. Now I personally I was having second thoughts just because I'd never get to see any of my family. I'll probably still go reg force just because the army got into my head before I even knew what I wanted to do with the rest of my life, at the young age of 16. Its just tempting to go into a civie job even though all I'd do and still do is day dream about the army when I'm in a boring class.



Well come on in, do a stint, then decide if its for you. You'll never know until you try. But finish school first and remember dope is for dopes


----------



## Harris (26 May 2008)

Harris's solutions to a happy and carefree CF:

If you won't deploy get out
If you won't accept a posting (without a very good compassionate reason) get out
If you want to join off the street you get a uniform on your back and your on your BMQ within 6 weeks
If you want to CT then you're in your new Unit within 8 weeks
Once you complete the checklist for deployment then you go home to train/prepare until the departure date (Of course the checklist has to be reasonable and only contain enough Ex's to enable the Team to learn/bond on each Ex.  Once the bonds are formed and the learning is minimal, checklist complete)
If your injured while on duty or implied duty (Reserve PT for an example) you get %100 coverage until either you go back to work %100 and/or you get a pension because you can't work
If your entitled to a pension, it is decided within 6 months of final assessments/recommendations
PER's are not popularity contests and are actually used to rate someone
Promotions/postings are based on PER's and the needs of the service
If you mess up your job, you are held to task and issues are not swept under the rug
Desk flyers must deploy at least once every four years

All of the above is based on things I've seen in a mostly Reserve world with some exposure to the Reg processes.


----------



## MedTechStudent (26 May 2008)

Harris said:
			
		

> If you won't deploy get out
> If you won't accept a posting (without a very good compassionate reason) get out



Whoa, I didn't know that was even an option.  You can really decline a posting?  

What other job can you refuse your responsibilities?  Without getting fired of course?


----------



## Kiwi99 (4 Jun 2008)

I agree with Harris on pretty much all he said.  Except rather than 'get out' if you turn down a deployment, you get kicked out.  Unless you have a bloody good reason.  

After discussing this with my peers there appears to be only one answer, and many won't like it because it is not why we joined the forces - and that is money!  Soldiers live for the moment.  If you tella guy that you will give him $5000 if he satys in for another 5 years then he will take the five grand and sign the line.  He won 't even consider the five years, he will just see cash.  As for all the old fellas who still think people join for the pride of service an all that carry on, well, hate to break it to ya, but new troops don't give a crap about that.  they want a paycheck and nothing else. Ask them why they joined and that is the answer.

As for rotating returning soldiers through the schools as inst to pass on knowledge, it is a good idea.  But you also have to rotate the leadership of those schools or the inst will be screwed. Ask any soldier that has been sent to a school after a tour.


----------



## aesop081 (4 Jun 2008)

Kiwi99 said:
			
		

> As for rotating returning soldiers through the schools as inst to pass on knowledge, it is a good idea.  But you also have to rotate the leadership of those schools or the inst will be screwed. Ask any soldier that has been sent to a school after a tour.



Sort of what i was saying in another thread:



			
				CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Thats exactly why combat experience has to permeate throughout the entire system. One simply cannot send vets to the schools only. Other positions such as Staff colleges, Doctrine-writting/developing organizations, DLR, CTS.......etc,etc,etc..... have to be manned with people with the relevant experience. Those positions are not always considered as "desireable" but in the end if recent army experience is to benefit the entire organization, some people are going to have to put their money where their mouth is and take those jobs.


----------



## yak (4 Jun 2008)

Harris, I'll buy just about everything you're selling in your last post.  However, right now (from my Navy/tech background) we're paying the price for recruitment policies of years past.  It takes years to get someone to the higher levels of certification in the Mar Eng trade, and since FRP we've essentially been screwed.

Now that the 20 year window is opening for a lot of people, attrition is really hurting as trained people leave for a wide open civilian job market and it will get worse before it gets better.  We're pretty close to critical manning all the time in some trades, and sometimes ships are always on the razor's edge of not being able to sail because of manning.

I think it must have always have been this way, civy wages up, recruitment/retention down.

Kiwi99 - you're probably right about people caring more about the paycheque than the service...at least at the beginning of the career.  It takes a strong organization and strong examples from your leaders to build pride and loyalty.  After a certain point though I think most people have a strong sense of loyalty, otherwise they would have left after their BE.


----------



## Kiwi99 (4 Jun 2008)

Most do leave after the first BE.  Even more leave after their first tour.


----------



## adaminc (4 Jun 2008)

I am surprised more people aren't joining, I mean, I already have gone to college (EET), and I am going to apply (LCIS) to join at the end of this month (hopefully) when my physical standards meet my own requirements.

There are a few things that enticed me to the military, one of the big ones was job security, I highly doubt the military will be cutting back any time soon. The next was working in a team/camaraderie, I love working in teams, the 3rd was probably the pay + benefits, and finally the traveling and field work.

One of the big things I find that holds people back, from all the naysayers telling me not to join up, is stereotypes and preconceptions from tv/movies. My mom was surprised to learn that we don't all live inside one long hanger like building, sleeping in bunk-beds a la Full Metal Jacket during basic training. Another friend of mine knows someone in the military already who is a medic of some sort. This military guy thinks I am crazy for joining up AFTER I have already gone to college. He, the military guy, keeps telling me things like he never has any free time, he's always being sent all over the place, he never gets any internet access to talk to friends and family. I figure that this could just be either A: grandiose statements or B: Just part of his job, and maybe his occupation is understaffed.

Either way, I think it's going to be a fun adventure, a good chapter in the book of my life.


----------



## jzaidi1 (4 Jun 2008)

All folks wanting to join the CF,

Please heed my warning.  I left the CF to make more money and guess what.  I want back in - paycheque aside, you'll work in a job with a purpose.  The civilian world works to make money but it is a soul sucking venture in every job at every level.  You'll slowly (or quickly) find that civvies don't lead by example, are looking out after #1, will cut your job to save a buck and will stab you in the back (unwittingly sometimes) to save their jobs.  I work with most of the major companies in Canada in staffing up their open positions and can honestly tell you most of them are crap.

Join the CF not for the pay, but the experience, the bonding and the ability to live a life less ordinary.  If I were to do it again, I'd join and remain there till retirement taking advantage of travel, cool assignments and educational opportunities.  I wouldn't leave either - not for a million bucks.  You'll make more than that throughout the lifetime in the CF and be able to care for your family with the stellar benefits and pension packages.

My two cents...no wait three cents (inflation)!
J


----------



## Hotspur (4 Jun 2008)

Kiwi99 said:
			
		

> After discussing this with my peers there appears to be only one answer, and many won't like it because it is not why we joined the forces - and that is money!  Soldiers live for the moment.  If you tella guy that you will give him $5000 if he satys in for another 5 years then he will take the five grand and sign the line.  He won 't even consider the five years, he will just see cash.  As for all the old fellas who still think people join for the pride of service an all that carry on, well, hate to break it to ya, but new troops don't give a crap about that.  they want a paycheck and nothing else. Ask them why they joined and that is the answer.



I just wanted to pipe up here, as someone looking to join the Forces that I am, in fact, joining for 'the pride of service an all that carry on'.  If I wanted to make money, I have faith enough in my resourcefulness that I could find a good way to may a buck without donning camouflage.  I personally believe that I would be a better person for joining, that all Canadians would be better off knowing more about their military, and when it comes down to it, I want to serve my country for patriotic reasons.

I realize you were making a general statement but there are some people left who may indeed see the military as something to aspire to.  thanks


----------



## blacktriangle (4 Jun 2008)

Kiwi99 said:
			
		

> Most do leave after the first BE.  Even more leave after their first tour.



I'm not sure my knees etc will last me to your age in the infantry, but rest assured some of us could be making more money elsewhere. The CF pays my bills enough to allow me a decent life, and unless I'm going to be a millionaire, I might as well do what I love...

We all join and leave/stay for our own reasons, as long as we do our jobs professionally, it shouldn't matter what our inner motivations are.


----------



## X-mo-1979 (5 Jun 2008)

popnfresh said:
			
		

> I'm not sure my knees etc will last me to your age in the infantry, but rest assured some of us could be making more money elsewhere. The CF pays my bills enough to allow me a decent life, and unless I'm going to be a millionaire, I might as well do what I love...
> 
> We all join and leave/stay for our own reasons, as long as we do our jobs professionally, it shouldn't matter what our inner motivations are.



As long as I get paid on the 15th and 30th and my PER/PDR's are good,and I have my boats to pay off, truck, etc...I'll be retained here.
After tour with all my bill's paid..

It isnt my dream job,but I got a wife and kid to support so I man up every morning grin and bear it.

To pretend the army cares if a young mcpl leaves is unrealistic.They'll just make another one.


----------



## Kiwi99 (5 Jun 2008)

"To pretend the army cares if a young mcpl leaves is unrealistic.They'll just make another one."

I have to disagree.  MCpls are the backbone of the forces.  Conveniant Cpls and conveniant Sgts as reqd.  The army as a whole may not care, but their home units sure do.  Good jacks are out there, but are definitlety not the majority.


----------



## X-mo-1979 (5 Jun 2008)

Kiwi99 said:
			
		

> "To pretend the army cares if a young mcpl leaves is unrealistic.They'll just make another one."
> 
> I have to disagree.  MCpls are the backbone of the forces.  Conveniant Cpls and conveniant Sgts as reqd.  The army as a whole may not care, but their home units sure do.  Good jacks are out there, but are definitlety not the majority.



I see what your saying, but we lose them all the time and they just pick the next 23 yr old and send him on his courses.
(By far the worst rank ever.I either gotta get promoted again or hit someone) ;D


----------



## 2 Cdo (5 Jun 2008)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> I see what your saying, but we lose them all the time and they just pick the next 23 yr old and send him on his courses.
> (By far the worst rank ever.I either gotta get promoted again or hit someone) ;D



If you get promoted all you become is the "private" of the WO and Sgts mess. ;D


----------

