# References Superthread [Merged]



## Ralph

Does every reference you give the recruiters get called? One? None? Depends on how tired they are on a certain day?
Cheers,
Ralph.


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## MethylSilane

I asked only one of my references if he got a call, and apparently he didn‘t.

Unless they call after the interview, which for me is on Monday, I guess they don‘t call in every case.


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## ninty9

I was just going over the papers the recruiter gave me and a question arose.  

I have the main sheet that tells you everything you need to hand in to the recruiter like SIN, Birth Sertificate etc.  Under note 4 for references it says I need 2 letters of reference and no family or friends.

I also have another sheet that says Friends are allowed as references and that sheet is attached to two "Letter of Reference for Applicant" sheets.

My question is, do I need two letters of reference and also these two sheets, or do I just need one?  Another thing is are friends allowed as references?

I could probably phone the recruiter but you guys are so knowledagable.

Thanks in advance.


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## kurokaze

Hi,  friends are definately allowed as references.

I used one of my best friends as one of my 
references.

I‘m not sure what other sheet you are talking 
about though.  The only one I‘ve seen is the
one that said that friends are allowed as
references.


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## ninty9

They gave me 2 sheets that have questions on them like:

"How do you know the applicant" and "Does he get along well with other people".

Do I need to someone to fill this out as well as a letter?

Did your references have to write letters?

Thanks.


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## Dacier

I just applied a few months ago and was given two reference sheets that had to be filled out by non-family memebers.  

No letters had to be written, nor did they actualy call up my references.

What is your age? Maybe if your under 18 you have to do more.  I‘m 21.


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## SpinDoc

As far as I know, to apply to become an NCM, those 2 reference forms are the only ones you need.  If I remember correctly, they have to add up to a certain number of years of acquaintance... i.e. they have to know you for a combined number of years.

If you aren‘t at the age of majority, you need an extra form seeking permission from your guardian... but that‘s just a signature and not a reference thing.


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## ninty9

Great that answers both of my question.

And yes, the two references must add up to 5 years.

I‘m 19 so no need for a signature.

Thanks guys.


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## MethylSilane

Just have your references fill out the forms they gave you, and that‘s all you need.


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## kurokaze

Yes SpinDoc is right.  Your two references have
to have known you for a total of 5 years combined.

Not that much really when you look at it.

I used  my boss as my other reference.  I just
thought it would look better to use an employment
and a personal reference instead of 2 personal
references.

Oh, and be sure to provide them with adressed-
stamped envelopes so that they can mail out their
references.  You‘re definately not supposed to see
them.


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## hooknshoot

picked up my application the other day, just need to know who would be the best type of character references to use? ie. ex military, ppolice officers etc.


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## Bert

I believe in the application documents, it requests at least two references who you have known for at least 5 years.  Using the most professional references then would be the best idea.  

I used two co-workers who I kept in contact with over the years.  They and I worked in the same area as my MOC of choice.  Their reference could be used in a personal and a professional sense.


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## Bringer

It‘s actually just two years for references. The recruiter I spoke with said that a couple of good friends would work for both references, but it would be better if I used a two different types of references (eg a friend and a coworker.)

Since I‘m currently unemployed and don‘t feel like tracking down people from my old job, I‘m just planning on using two friends instead. The recruiter said this wouldn‘t pose a problem.


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## ZeeL4J8c2

Hello Hi
I have basiclly every form filled out, every id but i can‘t get the letters of reference done
See I don‘t really have any neighbours who know me
I asked a couple of my parents friends and they said no because my parents dont want me to go (full time.) Since i was only at my current high school for a year i dont really know a teacher too well. My only serious job‘s employer doesn‘t live in Canada no more and the only thing i have left is friends but i dont think they‘ll be good references if a call comes. I don‘t know what to do? Do you think i should get them to do it? I think they might hurt me more then help me (metaphorically.)
Please i need help.
‘


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## Dire

Well first off how old are they and yourself?

When I did my referances I got 4. 2 from my bosses from work, 1 from my principle from High School who also knew me from playing Rugby.. And another from a teacher/Rugby coach/club Rugby coach.

I thought I needed more so I was gonna ask some friends but thought about it for a sec. How avaible would they be. Not very since It‘s hard for myself to reach them causae of them being at work/school or just out.

What I think you should do is tell your situation to a teacher you like at your school. Even know they don‘t know you for 4 years they still can be a referance. Only 1 said they knew me for 4+ years and my Rugby coach knew me longer but he only put he knew me for 3.. Dunno why, but I think he kinda messed up... Anyhow, when I droped them off to the recruiter he said I had enough referances. And I told him I  only had 1 4 year but my coach knew me longer and I could change it needed be. He said it was fine..

Anyhow, ask some friends of the family also.. tell them your situation. If you are underage maybe you shouldnt join without your parents blessing, but if you are over 18 it‘s your life. Tell your family friends that.. Say you really wanna do this..


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## ZeeL4J8c2

I am 19 and so are most of them.
I know i am pretty old but my parents are really uptight. 
Schools out already. it‘s jun 30th
Also i am joining full time. 
I‘ve basically had the same best friends who‘ve known me since well i was 11.


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## McInnes

You only need to letters of reference which are provided to you in you package of forms. I had two teachers fill them out for me, and they only knew me for two years. It should be fine. Try to convince your parents friends or whatever and explain to them that this is something that you really want to do. If that doesnt work, just get your teachers to fill them out for you.


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## jonsey

Ok, I‘m going to take my application to the CFRC tomorow, for an NCM Infantry position in the Reserves (Argylls in Hamilton). I just wanted to check one thing about the Letters of Reference. Are they necessary for NCM positions or are they just for Officers?

Thanks.


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## Da_man

no, you need 2 references.

oh and dont forget:
- Social Insurance Number (photocopy of the card)
- birth certificate
- reports cards for the two last completed year
- school diploma(s)
- documents of citizenship (if landed immigrant).

I did the same thing yesterday


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## jonsey

So I am going to need them. Well, I guess I‘m going to have to postpone taking the stuff in for now. 

Thanks.


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## Argyll_2347

If I can remember... I think they provide you with them.  I got my former Cadet CO and a teacher to write mine.

Hopefully see you on parade some time in the near future Jonsey!


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## y2kroachman

Hi,

I have reference letters that are 2 years old. I was wondering if they were good enough for my application or they abosuletly have to be 1 year or less. I‘m applying for NCM.

Thanks!  :sniper:


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## Ender57

Your reference letters have to be from with-in a year or less. It probably wouldn‘t be good to use letters from two years ago because at that time your references most likely wouldn‘t had known about what you were going to be applying for in the military.


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## y2kroachman

its references that i got when i was applying for rmc, its one of those officer questionnaire reference letters


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## Ender57

Okay, it would be still good in content probably but the military still wants it to be from the within a year. I think it is so that if anything has changed with you they‘ll know about it.


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## James Wood

on my refrence application, is it just one person who does the whole thing or an old boss and a personal refrence, so two people? 
Also, will the recruiting center let me hand in all my other info like tommorow and my refrence sheet a few days later because im up in university and can't get home to do it for a few weekends. I just want to speed up the process,


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## nate1982

two ppl
two letter
i would recommend handing in everything together to minimize stuff getting lost or misplaced as thats what I did


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## brneil

Recommendation don"t do anything that increases the chance of parts of your file getting lost.  Remeber Murphy‘s Law definitely applies to recruiting


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## GrahamD

Plus it will not speed up the process 1 bit to hand in part of your paper work.  Your file sits in a file cabinet until you complete whatever requirements have been put before you.

Once you hand everything in, they will schedual you for the next phase, whatever that may be.

And its two references minimum, or as many as it takes to cover 5 total years.  That can mean a person who has known you for 2 years, and a person who has known you for 3, for a total of 5 years combined.  It does not mean that you have to have a reference from 1999.


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## James Wood

alright i am starting to understand...so i could have a boss who has known me for 2 years and he could fill out my job refrence and a personal refrence could also fill out the same application, right? so i could almost have 4 people for 2 applications?


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## GrahamD

No, if you‘re going to require more than 2 reference letters to cover the 5 years, you don‘t put 2 people on the same letter.  Ask your recruiter for a third or fourth form letter, or just photocopy the ones you have.


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## ab136

Just found out that I have to redo my entire application.  With regards to to reference letters....should I use the same people or different people.  The two I had were excellent; but now that I am thinking(big mistake)maybe I could come up with one better reference.  Would that seem odd to change references?  Open for suggestions!


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## jonsey

Why not use all three? I don‘t believe that there is a maximum number of references you can hand in.

Best case scenario, they see that another person is willing to say that you‘re the right person for the job. Worst case scenario, they file it with the others and ignore it. 

Just because you have to redo your application doesn‘t mean that your references are invalid. At least, I wouldn‘t think so.


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## ab136

Thanks Jonsey, it seems so simple when someone else lays it out. Thanks. Three it is.


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## dano

I know I have to redo my application...


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## jonsey

Howcome you have to redo them? Mistakes when filling it out?


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## dano

Nope. No mistakes we‘re made on their part.
This would be my 3rd time applying. So, the CO at the CFRC said for me to finish grade 12 (almost done now, with a average percentage of high-80‘s!! Which I have NEVER gotten in my life...)
and give him the newer transcrips, and to redo my application/refrences.

I can bet you though, they still have my application on file, just not the refrences. I could careless, because I‘am applying for Regular instead of reserve now, and I can (hope) get my COs to fill out newer refrence forms.


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## ab136

My app was a couple of years old.


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## applied

(If you notice the lack of contractions and bad punctuation in this post please pardon it.  Ièm typing on a keyboard set for French and I cannot find some keys - connot contracts as "canèt" for ex...)

I have just applied for the infantry under the DEO entry programme.  I am interested to know what is involved with the background check.  Now, I want the the job, so I will lay them out on the table if that is what I have to do.  But that said, I tend toward being one of those guys who likes his privacy.  ...I just want to mentaly prepare myself.  All I found on the subject when I searched the recruiting section was the following:

"It is the responsibility of the Department of National Defence to screen all potential employees to determine their suitability and reliability. The Canadian Forces may contact the references that you provide as well as other individuals who may be suggested to check on your background, personal and professional relationships, as well as your work ethic. The reference check, conducted through received letters and phone calls are methods of confirming that you can be expected to be reliable and trustworthy in the performance of your duties and in the protection of the assets and interests of the Department of National Defence and its personnel."

...Fine.  So, can I expect them to be calling my old cadet Sqn. C.O. from 10 years ago.  People generally that I worked with in cadets perhaps...  Friends or neighbours...  

In a search related to marajuana that I had done previously I found a post by an MP where he claimed to have ejected someone while they were on course in St.Jean because they found out he lied about never smoking pot in his interview.  (I think I searched "pot")  ...How could they find that out!  Thatès freaky.  ...and frankly a little off putting.

Anyway, I know enough to be honest with the recruiter. (As if that post is not warning enough in any event!)...and like I said, I want the job, so I will lay em on the table if that is what I have to do.  ...and I dont need to be concerned about it anyway  ...Its just that if they are going to be contacting people that I have not spoken to in ten or more years or more I need some mental preperation.

What would normally be involved in your basic background check.  What can I expect.

Thanks.


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## wongskc

When I did my background check, they wanted to know what I have been doing for the past 10 years.  Where I went to school, work, where I‘ve lived and if I‘ve left the country, where, when and how long.  I summed all that up on my application (had to add a couple extra sheets).  If you were a cadet 10 years ago, I doubt they would look into that much, though they would like to know the corps/squadron name, location and number.  Cadet units are supposed to keep your file on hand for five years after you leave, then they are destroyed.  Other than that, I don‘t know.  After they take that info and forward it to CSIS, it‘s all a black box.


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## nULL

You should be careful. If you‘ve been out of the country for more than 2 weeks in the last 10 years, you have to fill out a seperate security booklet (in addition to the one in your application) later on. Apparently, this form can delay you by up to 8 months to a year, although you may be lucky and squeak through in 6 months!

However, it only applies to you past the age of 16, but the country you travelled to does not matter. A 3 week trip to Disneyland will apparently net the same sort of delay as if you had gone to Lebanon. 

I was very lucky, having missed the deadline by a mere 6 months


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## chrisf

Reference the marijuana, don‘t lie. Simple as that. If you‘ve used it, tell them, and be honest about it.

Believe it or not, unless you were a hardcore chronic user, they don‘t particularly care.


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## wongskc

Are you sure it‘s two weeks Null?  Because if it is I‘m screwed until probably next year.  ARHG!!  I spent 18 days travelling around China visiting family .    :crybaby:    :crybaby:    :crybaby:


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## cathtaylor

Question for anybody????? Has anybody had to get an Enhanced realibility Check done.(ERC) for short and if you did how long did you have to wait? My medical came back approved but I‘ve been waiting for the ERC for a little over a month now.
Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Cath


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## Bert

Don‘t worry too much about the security clearances
in the application process.

The CF does a background check and prepares a security level by the during of the application process, and completes another level by the end of basic.  You may have to fill out new or supplementary forms during BMQ.  Likely your unit will have to upgrade the clearance when you get there after you complete the BMQ course.

Wongsck
Your trip to China won‘t affect your ability to 
get the necessary clearance level or affect the timing during the application process.  

Cath
It generally takes about 3 months to get an ERC
complete for the average person.  Those with
prior or active clearances it could happen a little quicker.  Depending on circumstances, the ERC may not be completed until you‘re well into 
BMQ.

Depending on your gaining unit, your clearance may have to be upgraded anyway.


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## wongskc

Bert,

Thanks a million! You‘ve made it possible for me to get a full night‘s rest again!


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## BF Hawkeye Pierce

I‘m just curious does everyone need to hand in 2 references or just people who are applying for officers?


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## Chalcey

I applied for the reserves and I needed two references (one has to be of 5 yrs or more) so I don‘t think only those applying for officers need them. There is more information about this in your application package


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## Paul F

I just applied for the reserves as well, handed my application in aproximately 2 months ago, and I needed the same number of references as you do.


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## Tracker

The recruiting staff should have filled you in, everyone needs two standard letters of reference.  We provide the blank letters for your references to fill out, they must be done on our forms.


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## scm77

Can you give us some insight as to whats on those forms?


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## winchable

Teachers or Coaches are a good bet for references...if they liked you.


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## Paul F

I used a teacher from school and a family friend as my references.


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## Northern Touch

Officers have different reference forms, or at least I did from my RMC references to my reserve references.  The officer one was much more detailed compared to the reserve one.  I used my teacher and my old hockey coach.


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## MikeM

I used one of my officers from my cadet corps and a friend of the family.


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## furyofmojo

Ok, Im sure this is going to sound a little weird............or not, but what if I don't have any references? I am going to apply for infantry officer through DEO. I've done a search through the forums for this topic and the ones I've found leads me to think that I won't be able to get into the army.

Just so you don't think I just crawled out from under a rock or something:

My parents moved me around more then a few times in my life so I don't have any teachers from highschool/junior high/etc to use as a reference. I haven't had any professor from university for more then a few terms (4 month is a term). I have also never had a job before, asides from the family business, which doesn't have any co-workers except for family members. As far as references go, I have none that will fit into the "total of 5 years relations", except for my friends that is, which I am to understand are not really acceptable references.

Any responses will be much appreciated.


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## Goober

What about friends of your family? One of your parents friends, perhaps a siblings boy/girlfriend. I would get incontact with an old teacher or professor if I was in your situation, there is bound to be one or two that remember you.


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## Harrier101

How about a next door neighbour? Or the bank teller, the insurance agent, the store clerk where you have been buying your milk? Any body that sees you on a regular basis that could judge your character.


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## Ender57

With your references, if you don't have ones that have known you for five years or more. then what you need to do is get enough references together that have known you for a year or more that can combine to cover the five years.


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## scm77

This ones for me.  What about an dentist who I had to go see once a month for the last three years and counting.  Would that be acceptable as a reference?

Thanks.


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## rdschultz

scm77:  Can the dentist honestly and accurately answer all the questions on the reference form?  If so, I can see why there'd be a problem.  

furyofmojo:  I had a hard time coming up with good references as well.  Not nearly as hard a time as you're having, but I can understand where you're coming from.  Like others have said, try to come up with a friend of the family.  Does your family business deal with any other companies on a regular basis (like a sales rep that comes by every so often, for instance, or long time regular customers/clients that might be able to help out).  The recruiters really try to push professors, but I'm not sure if they're familiar with most civilian universities.   Most of my professors only knew me as a number or by my face.  They wouldn't be able to provide any reference of value.   Maybe try a principal or vice-principal at one of the schools you attended.  Even if they're not willing to just sit down and write it up, they can take a look at your file and grades and whatever else and probably come up with something.  As long as you weren't a trouble-maker, they might be comfortable with that.


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## scm77

hoser rd said:
			
		

> scm77:   Can the dentist honestly and accurately answer all the questions on the reference form?   If so, I can see why there'd be a problem.



Depends what questions are on the form.   He can answer questions about my character, if I was responsible and did the things he told me to, if I showed up on time.   I should mention he was an orthodontist so he told me all kinds of crap to do with my braces etc.   He could say how I did everything I was told to.

Do you know what's on the reference form?


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## rdschultz

Not off the top of my head.  I handed in my application a number of months ago, so its not fresh in my mind.  I think I recall seeing them posted on the web somewhere, but I'm not sure.

It sounds like it might be ok, but I'm far from a recruiter.  Maybe Koach can shed some light on this?


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## Iwannabeasoldier

My recruter told me it could be anyone thats known you for five years or more.......I havent submitted mine yet, but I just got two long term friends to fill my forms out, is that a bad thing?


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## scm77

Iwannabeasoldier said:
			
		

> My recruter told me it could be anyone thats known you for five years or more.......



That's strange, the DND Recruiting site says you need a total of five years coverage between your refrences. ???


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## phalen

ya, its 5 years total between the 2


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## Tracker

The best bet is to call a recruiting centre.  The one I work at now requires at least one of your references to have known you for at least five years.  You can no longer add them up for five years.  These letters are a character reference only, if you read the hand out that comes with them, it says that they must be an adult who is not related to you.  They can be employment, educational or personal references, your friends or neighbors can be your references.


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## Chalcey

I agree with Tracker, I had my references all ready and dropped off the completed application and my recruiter told me that one of my references had to be someone I knew for at least five years (both I had were not) so I took one off and used a childhood friend and he didn't say anything to me about not being able to use a friend...hope that helps!


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## George Wallace

If you are in University, then you will be running into the same Professors throughout your Degree courses.  You will land up doing Tutorials with some of them and they should then get to know you personally, and you will not be just a number.  In that case, ask one of them to be a Reference for you.  Ideally five years would be required, but there are exceptions.  Children of Armed Forces parents have often  moved every four to six years, so they also have a similar problem.  They use References of friends that they have met in the past and may still have contact with.  There is nothing saying that your References must be in the same town as you.  They could reside anywhere.  

It shouldn't cause you too much consternation.

GW


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## RebornXmetalhead

Do references *have* to see you often for that period of 5 years?
I have family friends that have known me since I was born, but would only see me once every month (or every 3 months)

And would a teacher (who I've only been with for 10 months) be a good reference?
(specially my chef/teacher, he has lots of information about my reliability and endurance to stress, etc)

And... would a cousin's wife count as a relative?

Other than that, I don't know anybody that knows me well and that has seen me often for 5 straight years.


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## rdschultz

George Wallace said:
			
		

> If you are in University, then you will be running into the same Professors throughout your Degree courses.  You will land up doing Tutorials with some of them and they should then get to know you personally, and you will not be just a number.  In that case, ask one of them to be a Reference for you.  Ideally five years would be required, but there are exceptions.  Children of Armed Forces parents have often  moved every four to six years, so they also have a similar problem.  They use References of friends that they have met in the past and may still have contact with.  There is nothing saying that your References must be in the same town as you.  They could reside anywhere.
> 
> It shouldn't cause you too much consternation.
> 
> GW



Not in my case.  Maybe thats why the recruiters seemed like it was an absolutely ludicrous thing for me to say that a professor was not possible for a reference.  Because it probably varies from school to school, and maybe mine was the exception or whatever.

Throughout my academic career, I only had one professor off the top of my head who was a repeat instructor, and that was only for what amounted to one course split into to two and spread out over the whole year.  With the 120+ students in the class, he might've recognized me, but he'd have no idea who I was.  Part of that was the fact that I didn't spend every day camped outside his office for office hours (like some students did), but I did probably an average amount of communication with him.  In extreme cases one might get to know a single professor (a friend of mine did a special project as a course, so obviously he got in), but at my school that was way outside the norm.

I'd also point out that the lack of repeat professors wasn't for lack of trying.  I had a number of professors that I wish I could've gotten again, where it just wasn't feasible.  Either they weren't teaching their regular course some time later, or the time they taught it conflicted, or anything.  Even still, I wouldn't trust any of them to write me a reference, or I'd be certain to screen the references quite well.  Even the senior design project courses I took, where we were spending 6 hours minimum a week in a lab and the lab TA's were there at least half the time, they'd still make a lousy reference.


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## G3RM

Hi, I'm new to the board so please forgive me if this isn't the correct place to post this.

I saw a thread about references so this seemed like a good place to post it without starting a whole new thread.

Well, like the first poster in this thread I havn't really got any references except my parents long-terms friends who knew me when I was in my moms tummy  I was wondering if it would be acceptable if I used both the wife and husband or would that not go over well? Should I just use one and try to find another reference?


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## Spr.Earl

RebornXmetalhead said:
			
		

> Do references *have* to see you often for that period of 5 years?
> I have family friends that have known me since I was born, but would only see me once every month (or every 3 months)
> 
> And would a teacher (who I've only been with for 10 months) be a good reference?
> (specially my chef/teacher, he has lots of information about my reliability and endurance to stress, etc)
> 
> And... would a cousin's wife count as a relative?
> 
> Other than that, I don't know anybody that knows me well and that has seen me often for 5 straight years.



Basicly they just ask how long have you known Joe Blow?
Family friends count,relitives don't.

Hope this helps.


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## George Wallace

Guys....you're making it sound like you have to live with your References for five years.  None of us could do that.  I used a friend of the family, who was a neighbour across the street from my parents, who I saw at Chistmas and New Years annually and little else.  They knew me and my family and that was enough.  Remember, you are not going for the top job in the Canadian Forces; you are just trying to join at the bottom rung.  If you used someone who you lived with for five years and were now trying to use them as a Reference, that would mean that they would probably be "THE EX"  and I doubt you'd get a glowing reference then.

GW


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## Tracker

I thought my earlier post was clear enough.  Don't complicate this more than it has to be.  Friends are ok, family is not ok, at least one has to have known you for five years, less is unacceptable.  All they have to be able to do is say "Johnny/Jane is a good boy/girl."


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## furyofmojo

Thank you for all the responses.

I guess I'll just use my long time friends for references and hope my application isn't scrutinized too much.


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## Pugnacious

I'm stumped over the letters of Reffrence thing.
Besides family I don't know anyone for 5 years anymore..I just lost a good old friend to Liver Cancer a few months back.

I'm very picky about my friends, and to make matters worse we just moved to the small town we are in, and have only been here a year.

Can't family give a letter of refrence if he was ex military, and is a Father in law...hell I almost had to do his own basic training just to marry his daughter. ;D

Just trying to get all my ducks lined up before I visit the recruting office.
Trying to find my grades is another nighmare...ack!

Cheers!
P.


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## Ender57

You'll have a bit of a hard time, but you can do it. Firstly, even if a family member is ex-military they can't be a reference because they are considered to be biased, even they are your Father in Law. As far as I know though if don't have anyone who has know you for five years, you have to get a bunch of people to write you letters to cover five years and as far as I remember they must have know you for at least a year, I'm not sure on this so it's best to confirm this with your recruiting center. They'll do there best to give you a chance to get into the armed forces.


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## Pugnacious

Thanx for the reply..I'm not giving up yet.  ;D
P.


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## nbk

I can sympathize, 5 years is an insane amount of time to know anyone. I was lucky that I purely by chance ran into an old friend who I knew for about 6 years since the end of elementary school, and got an old high school teacher to write the other, which was quite awkward I may add, since I never talked to any of my teachers outside of class. 

All I can say is explain your situation to a recruiter and pray for sympathy, and dont give up.


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## Infanteer

Those letters of reference are quite ridiculous.  They ask questions like "Would you recommend such-and-such for the Canadian Forces".  Why would someone go out and get a letter that doesn't recommend them for the job?  As well, do they have any relevence on the person's ability to be a good soldier, only OJT can determine that.  I remember the clerk just opened my two letters and ticked off the box, the qualitative merits of either weren't a factor.  Another example of CFRC thinking it can determine suitability....


----------



## Pugnacious

Is 'OJT' on the job training?

What if frustrating is over the years I have met some real wingnuts that have managed to get in to the Army...of course most end up getting the boot, but it is real frustrating..like here I sit wanting a chance (and getting older), and then to have to watch others go out of their way to blow it.

Isn't there some sort of ethics, and or psych test I could take?

P.


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## SFontaine

The referance letters are a joke. They were the hardest part of my app because I don't belong to any sports teams or anything. I had to get my Karate teacher from 2 years back and one of the only teachers in my school who doesn't want me to face a firing squad 

My entire way to deliver my app I was afraid they wouldn't be good enough but the recruiter just looked to make sure I had two then ticked it off on some paper.


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## atticus

The guy who does your interview reads over the letters of reference.


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## Infanteer

> The guy who does your interview reads over the letters of reference.



An what is he expecting to find, a potential recruit submitting a reference that says "X is incapable of performing assigned tasks, do not recruit him into the CF."  I think the NCO on the training grounds is better able to make that assessment.


----------



## Tracker

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Those letters of reference are quite ridiculous.   They ask questions like "Would you recommend such-and-such for the Canadian Forces".   Why would someone go out and get a letter that doesn't recommend them for the job?   As well, do they have any relevence on the person's ability to be a good soldier, only OJT can determine that.   I remember the clerk just opened my two letters and ticked off the box, the qualitative merits of either weren't a factor.   Another example of CFRC thinking it can determine suitability....



You would be surprised at the LOR's that some people do bring in.  The purpose of these letters are to determine if you actually have someone who is willing to stand up and say "Johnny is a good boy, I have known him for five years and in that time he has done nothing wrong."  If you are unable to do that, maybe you are not the kind of person we want representing Canada.  In some cases it is impossible to find someone who has known for five years for various reasons, too bad, the recruiting process wants these letters and one of the people you choose must have known you for five years.  Five people who have known you for one year won't cut it anymore.

Infanteer

I'm shocked at your comment.  Does having shinny shoes or your underwear 6inx6inx.5in in your locker layout make you any better a soldier?  No, but working through the stress of extra work on your Basic Training does.  The Military Career Counsellor who conducted your interview read your LOR before your interview.  Most employers look at letters of reference too.  The CFRC can determine your suitability for the CF and your MOC by following the guidelines and policies laid out by a higher authority (HR MIL).  CFRC's don't make policy, they follow it.  As a moderator, I thought you would try to help people understand the process, good or bad instead of complaining about it.


----------



## Tracker

Infanteer

Sorry I called you a moderator, I meant Directing Staff Member


----------



## ZipperHead

My advice: whomever you use as a reference, make sure you let them know that you are using them as a reference. Here's a quick story for you: there was a guy in my unit who decided to get out and go to university. He burned a few bridges behind him, making fun of the guys staying in (ie "I'm better than you because I'm getting an education"). Anyway, he knocked up his girlfriend, realized that he made a mistake (or two) and then tried to get back into the Army. He made the mistake of using a Sgt in the unit who was fairly outspoken and didn't suffer fools lightly. Oh yeah, he also forgot to let the Sgt know that he was being used as a reference. Recruiter: "Is this Sgt Bloggins? Do you know Timmy O'toole? He wants to get back into the Regular Force and used you as a reference." Sgt Bloggins: "He's an idiot. Don't let him back in". Recruiter: (stunned silence). Anyway, moral of the story: don't be an idiot, and make sure you use somebody who will actually say good things about you (ie. pay them off  > )

Al


----------



## Infanteer

> You would be surprised at the LOR's that some people do bring in.   The purpose of these letters are to determine if you actually have someone who is willing to stand up and say "Johnny is a good boy, I have known him for five years and in that time he has done nothing wrong."



Doesn't a criminal record check establish that?



> If you are unable to do that, maybe you are not the kind of person we want representing Canada.   In some cases it is impossible to find someone who has known for five years for various reasons, too bad, the recruiting process wants these letters and one of the people you choose must have known you for five years.   Five people who have known you for one year won't cut it anymore.



That is an unfortunate attitude considering we are missing entire subunits from our orbats and many potential soldiers are turned off of service from the 6 months to 1 year bottleneck that is CFRC.



> Infanteer
> 
> I'm shocked at your comment.   Does having shinny shoes or your underwear 6inx6inx.5in in your locker layout make you any better a soldier?   No, but working through the stress of extra work on your Basic Training does.



Your right, and the Officers and NCOs responsible for training can determine that at the relevant time.   



> The Military Career Counsellor who conducted your interview read your LOR before your interview.   Most employers look at letters of reference too.   The CFRC can determine your suitability for the CF and your MOC by following the guidelines and policies laid out by a higher authority (HR MIL).



As far as I see it, reference letters are subjective due to the fact that the recruit can pick and choose which sources he wishes to present to the recruiter.   I can think of a troop who did exactly that, slipped through the cracks on basic training, and was RTU'd on operations for piss-poor soldiering.   I can't figure out how a thumbs up from a karate instructor or a church group leader has any value on determining the abilities of a soldier.

I am a firm believer in the fact that a recruiting center should be for processing recruits.   Getting them interested and ensuring they meet the most basic medical and aptitude standards; there is no reason this should take as long as it does.   Get them into the training pipeline as quick as possible and let the NCO's who deal with them day in and day out determine their "suitability for the CF and your MOC by following the guidelines and policies laid out by a higher authority (HR MIL)."



> CFRC's don't make policy, they follow it.



Right.   I never intended to point out the CF members who "man the trenches" at the CFRC's as incompetent.   Painting with a broad brush like that is similar to "St Jean is the dumping ground for units to get rid of guys...."   Obviously untrue, and to say so does a disservice to hard working soldiers who do their assigned jobs to the best of their abilities.

However, many are critical of policies from up high that tend to handcuff those on the ground from doing their job.   CFRC is no different in the fact that we should be critical of policies which have an undesirable effect on the CF.



> As a moderator, I thought you would try to help people understand the process, good or bad instead of complaining about it.



I am an outside observer to the recruiting process, so there are better people here to explain the nuances of the system.   However, as a soldier on the pointy end, I am concerned about the support we are getting to complete the mission.


----------



## Pugnacious

Tracker wrote: "If you are unable to do that, maybe you are not the kind of person we want representing Canada."

I really take offence to this statement.

So how is someone who keeps out of trouble works hard all his life, and is super picky about his association somehow bad for the CF?
BTE: I also didn't ask my few close friends to die off due to illness.

I don't get it.  I worked behind the stage at APEC in Vancouver, had good enogh security clearance to come and go among the delegates of the world.  
I'm a licenced security guard in BC registerd with the attorney generals office.  Never had a problem with the law, and am the first to help someone in need in my neighbourhood. If someone attacked you on the street I'd be the first their to help you, if your house caught fire I'd pull you out regardles of the risk to myself, and prob' go back for (or bring out at the same time) your pets.

How am I not suitable to the CF?

Cheers!
P.


----------



## Tracker

> Infanteer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You would be surprised at the LOR's that some people do bring in.   The purpose of these letters are to determine if you actually have someone who is willing to stand up and say "Johnny is a good boy, I have known him for five years and in that time he has done nothing wrong."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't a criminal record check establish that?
Click to expand...


No, The guy who wanted to shoot everybody he could see in Toronto didn't have a criminal record. the guy who killed Holly Jones didn't have a criminal record either.



> If you are unable to do that, maybe you are not the kind of person we want representing Canada.   In some cases it is impossible to find someone who has known for five years for various reasons, too bad, the recruiting process wants these letters and one of the people you choose must have known you for five years.   Five people who have known you for one year won't cut it anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is an unfortunate attitude considering we are missing entire subunits from our orbats and many potential soldiers are turned off of service from the 6 months to 1 year bottleneck that is CFRC.
Click to expand...


You want to have someone pushed through the system and not properly screened to share a trench with you?   The bottleneck is not the CFRC, it is the VFS, the Medical, the CRNC and the physical fitness test.   All these are outside the CFRC's controll



> Infanteer
> 
> I'm shocked at your comment.   Does having shinny shoes or your underwear 6inx6inx.5in in your locker layout make you any better a soldier?   No, but working through the stress of extra work on your Basic Training does.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your right, and the Officers and NCOs responsible for training can determine that at the relevant time.
Click to expand...


So you want to screan troops at basic training after we have sent them there and denied the spot to someone who might be more deserving?   That sounds like a waste of money and effort to me.



> The Military Career Counsellor who conducted your interview read your LOR before your interview.   Most employers look at letters of reference too.   The CFRC can determine your suitability for the CF and your MOC by following the guidelines and policies laid out by a higher authority (HR MIL).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As far as I see it, reference letters are subjective due to the fact that the recruit can pick and choose which sources he wishes to present to the recruiter.   I can think of a troop who did exactly that, slipped through the cracks on basic training, and was RTU'd on operations for piss-poor soldiering.   I can't figure out how a thumbs up from a karate instructor or a church group leader has any value on determining the abilities of a soldier.
Click to expand...


If he could not find anyone who was willing to vouch for him would sound alarm bells to me.   No system is perfect, I know guys who made it through basic and QL3 in Wainwright, onto a tour only to be proven to be the biggest piece of s*&t ever to walk the Earth.   Everyone can find an example of this.   In your mind you want those people who are instructors to weed them out in training but this system has already failed.   I instructed on a QL3 course once and my CO told me before I left for Wainwright, "I don't need good troops, I just need troops, we'll make them good troops later."



> I am a firm believer in the fact that a recruiting center should be for processing recruits.   Getting them interested and ensuring they meet the most basic medical and aptitude standards; there is no reason this should take as long as it does.   Get them into the training pipeline as quick as possible and let the NCO's who deal with them day in and day out determine their "suitability for the CF and your MOC by following the guidelines and policies laid out by a higher authority (HR MIL)."



Wouldn't be more cost effective though if the CFRC weeded out the crackheads, the asthmatics and the mentally insane at the recruiting centre instead of waiting untill they are on an OP in a mission theatre?   There are many reasons that it takes this long.



> CFRC's don't make policy, they follow it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right.   I never intended to point out the CF members who "man the trenches" at the CFRC's as incompetent.   Painting with a broad brush like that is similar to "St Jean is the dumping ground for units to get rid of guys...."   Obviously untrue, and to say so does a disservice to hard working soldiers who do their assigned jobs to the best of their abilities.
> 
> However, many are critical of policies from up high that tend to handcuff those on the ground from doing their job.   CFRC is no different in the fact that we should be critical of policies which have an undesirable effect on the CF.
Click to expand...

   

I am also critical of many of the policies I have to work with everyday,and it is difficult to understand why many of them are in place, mostly they are cover the CF's ass incase something goes wrong.   If we don't do a VFS on a former member, for example, how do we know if he was released medically or as permanently unsuitable. 



> As a moderator, I thought you would try to help people understand the process, good or bad instead of complaining about it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am an outside observer to the recruiting process, so there are better people here to explain the nuances of the system.   However, as a soldier on the pointy end, I am concerned about the support we are getting to complete the mission.
Click to expand...


I spent most of my adult life as a soldier on the pointy end.   I would rather be short handed than have a full section of soldiers who should not have made it through the recruiting process.


----------



## Tracker

> Tracker wrote: "If you are unable to do that, maybe you are not the kind of person we want representing Canada."
> 
> I really take offence to this statement.
> 
> So how is someone who keeps out of trouble works hard all his life, and is super picky about his association somehow bad for the CF?
> BTE: I also didn't ask my few close friends to die off due to illness.
> 
> I don't get it.   I worked behind the stage at APEC in Vancouver, had good enogh security clearance to come and go among the delegates of the world.
> I'm a licenced security guard in BC registerd with the attorney generals office.   Never had a problem with the law, and am the first to help someone in need in my neighbourhood. If someone attacked you on the street I'd be the first their to help you, if your house caught fire I'd pull you out regardles of the risk to myself, and prob' go back for (or bring out at the same time) your pets.



I didn't mean it to sound like we don't want you and you are a serial killer becouse you cannot find someone to be your reference.   You have to see it from a recruiting point of view, like, why can't you find a reference for five years, where have you been and what have you been up to.

In your case, it sounds like you have been busy, can't you find someone from your work in BC?



> How am I not suitable to the CF?
> 
> Cheers!
> P.


----------



## Pugnacious

tracker wrote: "Wouldn't be more cost effective though if the CFRC weeded out the crackheads, the asthmatics and the mentally insane at the recruiting centre instead of waiting untill they are on an OP in a mission theatre?   There are many reasons that it takes this long."

Seriously how many Crack heads want to join the army?  Have you ever met a Crack head?  
I have while working security, and living in a major city, and trust me they are obviously not normal.

Also what is to stop one from getting their dealer to write them a nice letter of reffrence...
"yah I've known johnny and so for over five years (selling him drugs), he is a good guy (buys lots), is dependable (steals what I ask him to), and would be good in the army (so I can get access to some neat stuff he will steal from me)". 

I mean really...now I'm dammed for being an honest citizen wihout a criminal past.

The past months I have done -and passed- 3 seperate Nation wide security checks for various security jobs..not once did they ask me for letters of reffrence from friends teachers etc. When asked why not I'm told "as it would be subjective, and conjecture, and would require background checks of those sending the letters to have any value".  

If I spend anymore time filling out background check forms at the local RCMP detachment theysaid they are going to either hire me to do my own paperwork or arrest me for loitering.;D

But no I want to represent my country, and offer my experience, and dedication in the Army not the RCMP.
My bad.  
P.


----------



## Tracker

OK, now you are taking the crackhead thing out of context.  I refered to that as an example to Infanteer's thoughts that recruiting should get them in the door and training NCO's should decide if they are suitable.


----------



## Pugnacious

Tracker wrote: "OK, now you are taking the crackhead thing out of context.   I refered to that as an example to Infanteer's thoughts that recruiting should get them in the door and training NCO's should decide if they are suitable."

Oh I see, but my question (and other questions) still stands how does a letter of reffrence which can be falsifide (and prob' has been in the past) give such a green light?

I would think that after the first day one would know if someone wasn't suitable for the CF. 
'Hey why is Johnny starring into the courner, and rocking himselflike that?'...
'No no Johnny, a pic of  Rambo is not a good girlfriend pic!'...
'Hey Johnny take  the CO's arm out of your mouth!'... ;D

I thought that was what Basic training was for..too weed out the good from the bad, or is this the US forces?

Cheers!
P.


----------



## Tracker

The letters of reference don't give you a green light for anything.  You don't show up with your letters and go straight the basic training.  We understand that they can be falsified, If they don't look right, we call the person listed on the back.  I read one once that was clearly written by the same hand that filled out the application.  When questioned about it, the applicant denied that he filled out his own reference so I called the number on the back while he was still in my office.  The number turned out to be his own and his mom answered.  Do you want to have to rely on a lier when things get rough?  That might only be one example, but if I ignored his letters or if he didn't have to have any, you might be sharing a trench with him one day.

Basic training is too expensive to be used as a screening tool.  It costs much less to do it at the recruiting centre.  Either way, some people get through who shouldn't, and some people get screwed.


----------



## Infanteer

Ok, I fixed your posts for you Tracker.   

Now, for our tete-au-tete.   It's funny how this whole thing sprouted over an issue of a reference letter, which is probably one of the least important parts of the application process.   I can see we are getting sidetracked because you and I seem to be arguing about two different things.   Let's clear this up a bit.



> No, The guy who wanted to shoot everybody he could see in Toronto didn't have a criminal record. the guy who killed Holly Jones didn't have a criminal record either.



With reference to the dinky, standard issue CF Reference Letter supposed to ascertain what people like this might do if they were admitted into the Forces?   Obviously, the Toronto guy already succeeded in getting through a form of government vetting to be a registered firearms owner, and the Holly Jones killer had a respectable job, if I recall.   I think we both know that goof-balls will get through both the recruiting and training processes by simply being grey men.   However, I am not looking at making more lax standards, I just want to see troops processed faster.



> You want to have someone pushed through the system and not properly screened to share a trench with you?   The bottleneck is not the CFRC, it is the VFS, the Medical, the CRNC and the physical fitness test.   All these are outside the CFRC's control



Ok, now we are getting somewhere.   I was going to throw this in a previous post, but it never fit.

You are absolutely right, if we are going to discuss the recruiting bottleneck, it is best to look at all the responsible groups and go from there.

Obviously, the training system has something to do with it, due to the lack of qualified instructors to handle a large influx of recruits.   This is a structural problem in the Forces with many underlying causes that are beyond the scope of this argument, so we'll leave that.

VFS - is merely confirming paperwork, why must it take time.   I could have a file fed-exed to you in a day.

Medical - I understand this is one of the big stumbling blocks for time, is this the CFMS issue?   I know a doctor down the street who could give me a physical tomorrow; should it take 3 months?

Fitness Test - What is the big deal with making an appointment to do 19 pushups?   If the guy is extremely obese and has heart problems, then the medical should pick that up.   If he can't quite rip the 19 off, I'm sure he will after a few weeks in basic.

As for the CSIS and the Criminal Record Check, I don't advocate getting rid of these.   Surely they could be expedited or processed while the recruit is on route.   This is the what happened for my good buddy who just quit the CF and joined the US Army.   The FBI does a background check on him; if he fails, they yank him quick and probably send him to Guantanamo.

I am looking at the US recruiting process for a comparison here.   Like I said on another board, my buddy went from recruiter door to Ft Benning in a month.   He went in with his social security card and birth certificate and set up a date for testing the following week.   Over two days, he did a detailed interview process, and medical examination, an aptitude test.   The next day, they offered him a contract, which he signed.   It was conditional of him passing his PT test, which he did the day before he departed to Ft Benning two weeks later, and passing a FBI record check, which would be done while he was enroute.

Was he scrutinized any less by the recruiters?   No.   Did he have a reference letter (which is the source of this argument)?   No.   Is the American Army's supply of recruits qualitatively less for expediting the recruit process?   Having seen idiots from both Armies, my answer is no.

Why do we have to have such a time consuming system?   If the answer is resources, then fine, we can admit our recruiting system is strapped for cash and put that on the list of things that need money.   Is the problem bureaucratic, which I suspect it is?   Then I would venture to say someone in Ottawa isn't doing there job.

Here is my question; do you feel are system is as efficient as it could be, even with the constant barrage of complaints we get here at Army.ca?



> So you want to screen troops at basic training after we have sent them there and denied the spot to someone who might be more deserving?   That sounds like a waste of money and effort to me.



I think I've answered this question.   Recruiting should be responsible for screening, I just find fault with the time it takes.



> If he could not find anyone who was willing to vouch for him would sound alarm bells to me.   No system is perfect, I know guys who made it through basic and QL3 in Wainwright, onto a tour only to be proven to be the biggest piece of s*&t ever to walk the Earth.   Everyone can find an example of this.   In your mind you want those people who are instructors to weed them out in training but this system has already failed.   I instructed on a QL3 course once and my CO told me before I left for Wainwright, "I don't need good troops, I just need troops, we'll make them good troops later."



Yep, weak training standards can be attributed to this.   I think that we are in agreement here.   Let's be honest, if we were to pick out problems with the recruiting system we would have to pick out problems in the training system as well.



> Wouldn't be more cost effective though if the CFRC weeded out the crackheads, the asthmatics and the mentally insane at the recruiting centre instead of waiting untill they are on an OP in a mission theatre?   There are many reasons that it takes this long.



As I said before, the processing aspect of recruiting should ensure that troops are medically, mentally, and physically sound.   All these problems you describe are covered under medicals, I never argued that CFRC should quit doing them, although the argument seems to be moving in the direction of addressing the time they take.



> I am also critical of many of the policies I have to work with everyday,and it is difficult to understand why many of them are in place, mostly they are cover the CF's ass incase something goes wrong.   If we don't do a VFS on a former member, for example, how do we know if he was released medically or as permanently unsuitable.



Just like above, I never said a VFS shouldn't be done; again I think the argument is moving towards problems with the time required to do one.



> I spent most of my adult life as a soldier on the pointy end.



Good.   Then we probably have a pretty common view on things if we are frustrated grunts. 



> I would rather be short handed than have a full section of soldiers who should not have made it through the recruiting process.



Let's put it this way.   I would rather have a section of 8 then a section of 4.   I never advocated we open the flood gates to whatever trash comes off the street wanting green welfare, I just think it is unacceptable to wait so long to serve in the military.



> The letters of reference don't give you a green light for anything.   You don't show up with your letters and go straight the basic training.   We understand that they can be falsified, If they don't look right, we call the person listed on the back.   I read one once that was clearly written by the same hand that filled out the application.   When questioned about it, the applicant denied that he filled out his own reference so I called the number on the back while he was still in my office.   The number turned out to be his own and his mom answered.   Do you want to have to rely on a lier when things get rough?   That might only be one example, but if I ignored his letters or if he didn't have to have any, you might be sharing a trench with him one day.
> 
> Basic training is too expensive to be used as a screening tool.   It costs much less to do it at the recruiting centre.   Either way, some people get through who shouldn't, and some people get screwed.



Ok, to sum up.   Neither of us want to see CFRC quit screening potential recruits for outstanding issues of medical, mental, or physical nature.   I think the point I am trying to argue is that it shouldn't take so damn long.   Many members here have dealt with the recruiting processes of the military forces of other countries (myself included to some extent) and there is a general consensus that the Canadian Forces is the most frustrating one in the world to deal with.

What I'm getting at is that I disagree with the way the things seem to be intended to function.   I've heard an experienced SNCO tell me that the problem is that in the CF, the recruitment process is seen as a vetting tool (yes, this guy will be a good soldier), while the training process is seen as merely a skills tool (we'll show them how to march and clean a rifle).   I find that for an institution as total as the military, this is unacceptable.   The recruiting process should make sure that there are no outstanding problems with a potential recruit.   There are simply too many factors with soldiering (mental fortitude, ability to work in a cohesive unit, courage under intense stress) that can only be tested under an rigorous basic training regime.   I just don't believe recruiters have the ability to test for this, and trying to is a waste of effort.   That is why tougher basic training should go hand-in-hand with a quicker recruit intake.   Instead of glorified summer camp, recruits should be indoctrinated into the total institution they are trying to join (the old break them down and build them up routine).

Anyways, sorry for the long winded response, I just thought that it was essential for me to answer all your points in order to clarify my arguement.

Cheers,
Infanteer


----------



## Military Brat

Ender57 said:
			
		

> Firstly, even if a family member is ex-military they can't be a reference because they are considered to be biased, even they are your Father in Law.



I used a current service military member(who happens to also be a friend of my family) and I never had any problem.


----------



## Pugnacious

I'll have to look closer into this, and make a few long distant drives to the recruting center in Victoria, and pay a zillion dollars for parking etc.ACK!
I hope I can get this figured out.  If not well...I don't know.  :-\

Cheers!
P.


----------



## Tracker

Infanteer

Lets look at what takes the time.

If you don't make the minimum standard on the CFAT, you wait 3 months and try again.  If you pass you go onto the physical fitness test.

If you fail the physical fitness test, you can try again, this process can go on until you pass.  Once you pass we send out the CRNC.  An important note here is that at least one quarter of applicants don't pass the physical fitness test.

The CRNC normally comes in after a week, longer if there is a hit. Once it comes in and is favorable, you are booked for Med and Interview.

The Med is just like the part1 & 2 medical that you have done before and after deployment.  A relatively minor problem though, can slow the rest of the process.  For example, if you have asthma, you must take a letter to your family doctor and have them outline the nature of your asthma.  Sometimes your doctor will not include enough info and the CFRC med staff will ask you to do it again.  This info is then forwarded to CFRG where a medical officer reviews it and makes his /her decision.  There are guidelines in place that this medical officer must follow.  If you don't fall into the acceptable category, you get the letter.  

You must also be successful in the interview.  Again there are guidelines that we must follow, I can't give all the secrets away on this forum but you know where I'm going with this.  The interviewing officer may decide that "Johnny" is not ready for service yet, we'll try again in 6 months.

That ends the recruiting process.  From here we wait for job offers.  Some people don't get an offer.  Some people have problems from the past that continue to haunt them.

If you are perfect and are appling for an MOC that is short handed, we could have you in basic training in 6-8weeks.  Very few people are perfect.


----------



## Tracker

I missed the VFS.  If you require a VFS, we have send a request to find your previous service records and your medical docs.  I have no idea where these are kept, but know we don't have them at the recruiting centre.  I alway imagine a troll in a basement warehouse pushing a wheelbarrow of paper around.  A way to get around VFS is to get yourself on the sup list during release proceedings.

Thanks for fixing my posts.


----------



## Infanteer

Thanks for laying that out Tracker, it makes it clear that there are elements of the recruiting process that are out of the hands of the guys on the "tip of the recruiting spear".  Obviously you or I will not be reforming the system from down here, as usual some brass in Ottawa is sitting on the solution.

I think we agree for the most part on what needs to be done at the recruiting stage.  Naturally, being a professional volunteer service, we are not looking for mass inductions _a la_ WWII, so we have to be somewhat critical.

*Interest*:  The recruiters must get the interest out and the potential recruits through the door.  More effective advertising could be put out (seriously, who makes up those ads? ) but that is beyond this discussion; we want to address what happens when a willing volunteer comes through the door.

*VFS*:  Yes, important.  Did we chuck the guy out for poor conduct?  Obviously, this is a paperwork thing, though someone should be barking in Ottawa to ensure it takes no longer then it should.

*CFAT*: Also important, we don't want complete idiots occuping the role of the "strategic corporal".  Isn't three months a bit long?  I think we should take into account that some of these kids are real nervous when they write the test.

*Fitness Test:* I am not too worried about this.  Medical problems should be addressed in the medical.  Good Officers and NCO's in our training establishments should be able to mold a good soldier from weak clay (we just got to give them the proper time and resources).  Also, I remember having a two week roadblock during my recruiting process in having to make a physical fitness assessment at some other place and wait for them to tabulate my 19 pushups and situps and deliver them to CFRC.  Pretty inefficent if you ask me.

*Criminal Record Check and Reliability Check*:  Both also important, we don't want convicted drug pushers in the Forces and we also don't want someone who has spent the last five years in a training camp in Pakistan to slip through the system.  You say it takes a week to do this, so why wait to book the Med and the Interview?  The potential recruit isn't going anywhere, and I've always been taught that concurrent activity is good.

*Medical:*  Important, very important.  Easy as well.  Filled quite a few of them out, like you said, during tour.  Can be done quite quickly (1,1,1,1,4,6 - Not much else to it), and I can understand delays for people with questionable medical conditons.

*Interview:*  I can understand a recruiter "feeling out" the potential recruit to make sure he isn't joining the Army "to shoot people" or to simply squeak by with a government check with minimal effort (green welfare).  As with the original arguement, I question the necessity of reference letters due to their relevence.  Serious problems with the persons past should be picked up on the criminal record check and the reliability check, other than that, shouldn't the interview just ensure that the potential recruit understands what they are signing up to?

*Job Offers:* This would be out of the CFRC's hands obviously, dependant on vacancies and spaces in the training establishments, which is another story altogether.

These are all reasonable policies, and I don't argue with abandoning them to expedite the recruiting process.  All I am saying is that the system seems pretty inefficent to be taking such a long time to accomplish reletivly simple objectives (that other militaries can accomplish in 4-6 weeks).  When I applied, I had no bumps in my recruiting process (I went throughe everything quite quickly) and yet I was still sitting around waiting for the next step.  From office door to being sworn in, it took 16 weeks (4 months) to get through.  That time seems to be fairly standard for recruits without any major problems.

If you think 3-6 months is acceptable, than I guess we'll have to just agree to disagree.

On another topic, what would be the explanation for the run arounds such as this:

http://army.ca/forums/threads/17228.0

See these stories quite frequently here, and I am curious to know if problems like these can be attributed to manpower issues (not enough recruiters to handle the influx of interested kids) or are people asleep at the wheel?


----------



## Noyon

I remember awhile back now when I was sitting in the recruitment office and someone had the exact same problem, his Father was in the CF so they were often moving around. The longest he had lived somewhere was 4 years at Barrie while his dad was at Borden, he didn't know anyone that was not family so the recruitment officer said he'd probably have to somehow  find the referances otherwise it's unlikely you'll be considered. However the recruitment officer did attach a letter to his file explaining his situation, I don't know what happened after that.


----------



## Tracker

I think in our area we cover the interest thing pretty good.  We go to each of the 300+ highschools twice a year, in the fall to pitch ROTP and once in the spring to pitch NCM.  We go to every University and College as often as they will let us in to speak to specific classes and all the job fairs.  We also go to employment centres and do misc community events.

The reason that we do Physical fitness tests at the CFRC instead of letting the training system worry about it is this, if someone can't pass the entrance test they are more likely to become a casualty on basic training, this will either mean longer recovery time or med release and pension, a pt test only costs us $27.00 at the CFRC.  If you look at the time allocation at basic, you will see that there is probably not enough time to mold that piece of week clay. 

As for the run around, all I can say is that every recruiting centre is run differently. That is why the process I outlined for someone in the GTA might not be the same for someone applying in Victoria.  We have to adapt our process for the area we recruit in and not everyone will like it.  We constantly try to improve the system and stay within our boundaries.  If I was the guy getting the runaround I would speak with my member of Parliament to launch an inquiry.  Plain and simple, try to put an end to it before someone else gets screwed.


----------



## Infanteer

> The reason that we do Physical fitness tests at the CFRC instead of letting the training system worry about it is this, if someone can't pass the entrance test they are more likely to become a casualty on basic training, this will either mean longer recovery time or med release and pension, a pt test only costs us $27.00 at the CFRC.



So if someone can't complete 15 pushups, they are a liability, but if someone can squeak 20 off, they're worth the risk?   I know we have to draw the line somewhere, I'm just not sure if it is effective where we are doing it.   Maybe I am just drawing an issue with the standards here, the US has the APFT and the Royal Marines have the 3 day PMC, so the logic is applied in other places.



> If you look at the time allocation at basic, you will see that there is probably not enough time to mold that piece of week clay.



I'm sure we both think that is a problem that needs to be fixed, however, it is above our discussion and our paygrade....



> As for the run around, all I can say is that every recruiting centre is run differently. That is why the process I outlined for someone in the GTA might not be the same for someone applying in Victoria.   We have to adapt our process for the area we recruit in and not everyone will like it.   We constantly try to improve the system and stay within our boundaries.   If I was the guy getting the runaround I would speak with my member of Parliament to launch an inquiry.   Plain and simple, try to put an end to it before someone else gets screwed.



Yep, I think the real way to solve this is to be demanding of who we send to CFRC and their performance, not just put out an APB for a clerk who was run out of their own BOR (seen it done before).

In the United States Marine Corps, a successful stint at a recruiting or training establishment is seen as an essential stepping stone for advancement for NCO's and junior officers; there can be competition for the positions and the best qualified usually get the job.   Although far from being able to do this in the CF right now (we are stretched to the limits everywhere outside of NDHQ.), do you think this would be a good policy to look towards?


----------



## Tracker

When recruiting becomes important, important people will be doing the recruiting. :sniper:


----------



## SFontaine

When I get my Green Card I'll be sure to let you guys know how long the recruiting takes. From the moment I receive my card in the mail to the second I step inside Fort Benning, Georgia.


----------



## ZipperHead

I don't know if you want to be using the current state of the US military as a benchmark for how fast and/or effective their recruiting system is. I have seen the fact the the word "draft" bandied about on a few news sites. I doubt it will happen, but I suspect that they are expediting people's applications to fill trenches.

Al


----------



## SFontaine

With respect, the US has always had a damn speedy system. This guy I know who had dual-citizenship joined back in 99 and he said it took him exactly 4 weeks from phoning a recruiter to being flown down to the US and sent off for basic. Besides, the focus of the US recruitment program has always been recruitment.. They weed people at out Basic.


----------



## ZipperHead

I should know better than to rely on Army Urban Legends, but I have heard many a tale about how there are "gangs" on bases in the US and that officers on ships won't go below decks without an armed escort. I think that some of those types of problems could have been weeded out in the application process. 

I don't know if there is a perfect system, but I think that people need to be a bit more patient. If the military is something that you really want, you have to put up with the bureaucracy that comes with it. This isn't McDonald's, and if you're ready to pack it in after a short wait, so be it. We could do without people who quit because the going gets tough.

Al


----------



## Pugnacious

I can certanly see how the current "war" the US is having might speed things up, but at the same time just how well will you be trained?  
And most importantly just who is in the trench with you?  Some of those US hazing rituals are down right insane.  

I'm also just not a fan of US policy and Ideology.

So In spite of a few events over the years, I have heard nothing but praise about our forces, and for me this is my home..my country. 
I want to hang out with people like me that are proud to do their jobs. 

So I haven't given up my quest yet for my refrences, and last night my wife reminded me of a few people I had forgotton about the past few months that could fit the bill as reffrences.  We shall see...besides which I seldom walk away from challenges.  ;D

Sorry to prattle on.
Cheers!
P.


----------



## ZipperHead

Pug, my comments weren't directed at you. I have read more than a few posts in the Recruiting forum where people whinged about the recruiting process. I think a lot of it is the "instant gratification" that people want, where 1 hr photomats are too slow, and the 3 minutes that it takes to nuke something in the microwave is too slow.

There are some people that have been dicked around by the recruiting process, but I suspect that sometimes that it is self-inflicted, such as leaving out info on the reference forms, or being vague with respect to employment history or where you lived. Things take time, and people don't work 24/7 on these things. 

Al


----------



## SFontaine

I didn't mind waiting the 5-6 months I did because I was confident in thinking I would get summer training.I finished my testing late May and finished my app last week and if CFRC had done their job I'd be on course right this instant. Unfortunantly they didn't because too many people were taking vacations. THAT'S what bugs me about CFRC. 

Oh and the whole gang thing. Where'd you hear that?


----------



## ZipperHead

Again, the "gang" situation in the US Army is probably more urban legend than truth, and probably rooted more in racism than fact. One time when we went to Ft Knox to use the SimNet (tank and Bradley simulators), we went to the all-ranks club on base. Greeting you was a sign that said (basically): "No guns, no knives, etc". The club is/was broken down into a country bar (rednecks), a rock and roll bar (baseball hat and t-shirt wearing white guys) and a R&B bar (blacks). We (all white guys) walked into the R&B bar, and it was just like in "Animal House". I think the music even stopped as everybody stopped to look at us. We sat down and started talking to a few people, and they asked what we were doing there. I think that they thought we were being smart-asses and wanted trouble. We said that we were from Canada, and that seemed to make everything OK, and we had a good time. But I got the feeling that most times that people stuck to their "own kind". I have also heard talk (from Sr NCO's from my past) that there were drive-by shootings on some of the big bases, like Ft Hood. On the base. Now, you can decide for yourself, or look it up to see if it's true, but there is always a grain of truth in stories like this. After all, militaries usually recruit from the underpriviledged of society, because what guy in his right mind with a bright future would join the military  . And already having advanced weapons handling looks good on your application, right?!?!

Anyway, as I said before, more than likely a stretch of the real truth, and you shouldn't always believe anything you read on the internet without double-checking (I'm with a Nigerian bank, and if you send me $20000, we can turn it into 2 million bucks......).

Al


----------



## Pugnacious

Quite a Culture shock to goto the US and still see so much segragation isn't it?

Cheers!
P.


----------



## SFontaine

I see the exact same segregation here at school.. East Indian guys sit around acting black, Asian guys sit around playing computer/talking about cars and white guys sit around skating or whatever.


----------



## jarko

Is it ok to have 2 friends as references or will the people that look at your application skip you and go with the person with better refernces??


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## Inch

Try to get the most prestigious people you can find. Preferably employers or something of the like. When I applied to the Reg force I had my Res CO, and my program head in College. I think there was a third but I don't remember. I don't know if it'd be a detriment to have your friends as references, but I'd be asking why you only had friends and couldn't get a boss or principal or even a teacher for that matter.

Cheers


----------



## jarko

Ahh well i am in luck, my boss returned from his vacation and will fill the form in  ;D. Ill have one friend and an employer. Hopefully thats good enough!! Hopefully i can hand in my application tomorrow and start my long waiting.


----------



## koach

Having your friends as references is fine.  It could be difficult, lets say, for someone who is currently in highschool to have references other than their friends.


----------



## jarko

Nah i graduated last year. Anyway i got my boss to fill out one of them. Will they have any problems if my references left some of the questions blank, like the negative questions. (sorry for the dumb question) But hopefully when i go tommorow i wont get any problems about this.


----------



## Maverick

ummm.... i see a small problem, not to throw u down and kick ya... lol


when i was given my referance papers they gave me 2, told me to find teachers, employers, no family and also try to stay away from friends for this - this is what they told me.

I had my current employer and my old teacher, and they said anyone who has known me for 5 years? and i said.... not that i talk to a lot because i move a lot and they said try because it will look better, so i got a family friend for like 12 years and they said my referances are gold.

so u might be ok depending on the friend. like my family friend is 40 years old and is an engineer with a prestigious job and life etc.. etc.. , 
the question is : is your friend valuable in the sense of advice, length of time hes known u and character?


----------



## jarko

I have known him for 7 years, hmm.


----------



## USSRsovietsnake

Do you need every refference they ask for or else they will not accept your application.


----------



## Tracker

Yes


----------



## Sundborg

Tracker said:
			
		

> Yes


Well put!  ;D


----------



## USSRsovietsnake

what happens if your 30. Im not 30 but was wondering do you have to find your teachers when they are all 90 or will they allow that one to be empty.


----------



## D-n-A

You need two references, it can be a boss, co-worker, teacher, etc.

Aslong as it isn't a reletive.


----------



## DrSize

I have 4 letters of reference on my file, two from previous employers done up as work reference letters on company letterhead and 2 official Canadian Forces reference letters.  Anyways I needed the two work reference letters so I went in today and asked if they could make me a copy and they could still keep the originals.  Well they were scanned into the system so he gave my back the originals, he also gave me the official canadian forces reference letters back.  Now I found this kind of odd and told him that I did not want nor need them.  He still gave them to me anyways.  Now is this normal?? and could it effect my file or possibly my references may have to fill out the form and send it in again??  It is already scanned on file.......


----------



## dwyer.sd

NO, once your letters are scanned into the system, they would normally be shredded.  However, until you have completed everything, most centres will be maintaining the paper file.   Unfortunately, if your LOR were mailed to the Ctr, they might not contain information about yourself that you necessarily need.  Like your employer does not find you to be reliable or that your best friend does not recomend you to the military.  Once you give it to the ctre it is ours, and we will not normally give (especially LOR) paperwork back, we would rather shred it.


----------



## DrSize

Yeah I didn't think I was suppose to get a chance to see them let alone bring them home and keep them...however I did find out my friend/classmate and professor gave me a very strong recommendation.....I just hope this doesn't mess up my file or cause any delays.  I go in tomorrow for my medical, aptitude test, and physical test...so should I bring them back and tell the RC to hold onto them as I do not need them???


----------



## bossdog

It wouldn't hurt to bring them back in with you and talk to them about it again. The worst they can say is "no thanks".


----------



## koach

CFRC's are moving towards electronic files but they are retaining paper files of some documents because not all units have access to this new system.  Probably what your CFRC did was photocopy your letters of reference, stamped them as certified true copies, and gave you the originals.

There is no need to bring them back when you go in for your appointments but hold onto them for your own records.


----------



## Cgy

I'm probably a month or so away from applying to enrol into reg forces infantry, and have some questions/concerns regarding a couple of points. Most of the posts I have seen regarding applications and references the advice is given to those just out of school (or still in school), while I left college five years ago, so it is hard to put it into context to my situation. 

For my references I was thinking about using my immediate superior and the CEO at my company. I've worked with them for five years and I'm way past being in contact with old teachers or coaches. My only problem with this is that while I'm certain they will provide good reference, I am not certain they will appreciate me leaving. From the posts that I have read there could be a long time between applying and getting sworn in, and I have mortgage payments to make, so I'd like to hang on to my job as long as possible. Does anyone have any advice on how to deal with this matter, or insight on joining the military and leaving a civilian career?


----------



## hiv

I would just ask them frankly and honestly how they felt about it. I think they may be more sympathetic than you might suspect as you're not leaving for more pay or benefits but rather for something that's still considered quite noble by a large chunk of the public.


----------



## IWannaBePPCLI

can i ad a question??? I am currently in grade 10 (15 years old) and i would like to know if it is possible to make all of my references and apply NOW so that by next summer (my birthday is July 20) i will be able to get ready for a BMQ in ST. Jean... i understand that BMQ's are in sept. so I was wondering if i could put my application in now fso that i get in about then... if it is NOT possible then thats is no fun but O WELL. lol Either way i will be trying to get in ASAP because I,   Like others,  Find that the CF is ver noble and since i was six i have wanted to be in it.... i was just wondering.

And you may need more references I was told that I will need at least 4 to 5 references.. correct me if i'm wrong.


----------



## hiv

AspiringL.I. said:
			
		

> can i ad a question??? I am currently in grade 10 (15 years old) and i would like to know if it is possible to make all of my references and apply NOW so that by next summer (my birthday is July 20) i will be able to get ready for a BMQ in ST. Jean... i understand that BMQ's are in sept. so I was wondering if i could put my application in now fso that i get in about then... if it is NOT possible then thats is no fun but O WELL. lol Either way i will be trying to get in ASAP because I,     Like others,   Find that the CF is ver noble and since i was six i have wanted to be in it.... i was just wondering.
> 
> And you may need more references I was told that I will need at least 4 to 5 references.. correct me if i'm wrong.



My understanding is that you have to be of age when you actually make your application so I don't know if that will work.

When I joined in 2000 you only needed 2 references and I gave them to the CFRC the day I was sworn in.


----------



## IWannaBePPCLI

Thanks . That helped alot... I will also talk to the Hamilton Recruit centre... I will try to see what the availability for certain things are.. thankyou for your advice....


----------



## Tracker

Cgy

Don't get yourself in trouble at work, like you said, it could be a long time from application to enrollment, it would be nice to keep your job while you are waiting.  SLOR can be filled ouot by anyone who has known you for the last five years.  These could be friends, co-workers, religious leaders ans so on.  They don't have to be coaches, teachers or employers.  Don't get wrapped around the axle about it.

AspiringL.I. 

If you are going to apply for the Reserves you must wait untill you are 16 years old.  If you are going to apply for the Regular Force, you must be 17 years old.  If you are under the age of 18, you must have parental or guardian consent.  You cannot apply and get the processing out of the way untill you meet the age requirement.


----------



## IWannaBePPCLI

k.. wow i get alot of false info... I was told that i could join Reg force at 16.. thats no fun that its 17 because that frustrates me... I had planed most of my life (over the next year and a half) around  That aplication.. lol o well.. I am at least dedicated.. but i guess I wil do the Military COOP in grade 11 next year then move out to Reg force for my 17th bday... that sucks.. lol o well.. i still cant believe i was lied to so many times. o well lol.


----------



## chrisf

You should really finish high-school first... joining early without finishing highschool is going to do far more harm then good in the long run. If you're doing co-op anyway, consider joining the reserves until finished highschool at least.


----------



## Tracker

I agree.  Three years from now you might hate the Military and get out, the only thing you will have to show for your efforts is grade 11 and three years further away from finishing grade 12.  I would advise you to finish grade 12 now if you can.  Perserverence, (finishing grade 12) is actually an assessment factor in your interview.


----------



## IWannaBePPCLI

yeah i know that part... but I also know that i am allowed to continue schooling while in the army... but i ill go through grade 12 in the reserves... yes.. my plan is to  go to Military COOP and get in the reserves grade 11 then move to reg after highchool when i am still 17 but turning 18.... if that makes any sense it does to me but i am confusing lol...

thanks again for the advice


----------



## mbhabfan

Is there any advantage to submitting several references or stick to the two or three that they ask for?  Also, would my local member of parliament be an extra strong reference or is a reference a reference?  I think I will be asking one of my former employees of 5 years for one, my former high school principal (who is now my mayor).  Should I be looking for better references?  Thanks


----------



## Inch

I think those sound pretty good short of getting Paulie M to be your ref.


----------



## Dogboy

the reference must know you personally, not just know who you are. and friends are OK, but getting someone you know thats big or important is a good thing. 
iv got the same problem, one of mine will have to be a friend because no one else knows me for that long (5 years). but the other one is someone i work with for the last several years so they know me well enough for it.
just get a stable friend who can say nice things about you and work you up good but not to good.


----------



## cathtaylor

When i applied i gave 2 references  one was a friend of mine the other was someone I worked with in the past 5 years. I was told about the time I was merit listed that they would not be calling these references, they only do that if there is a red flag raised throughout your application process. Now I've got to tell you I'm 45 years old and have been in the work force for many years that probably came into my favor. As for younger recruits that have'nt had that much time in the work world  I would think that they want more of a serious reference?? Of course I'm only speculating about that. that's my two cents. Hope it helps

Cath


----------



## mbhabfan

Thanks to all of you...Cath I am 31, have been full time employed for 13 years and self employed for the past nine plus years.  I am not sure if that stacks up beside your personal work experience.  Just curious is there any point in finding two or three more references, will it help or just be a waste of paper?


----------



## cathtaylor

I would say heck if you can get them then all the more power to you good luck. When did you apply??


----------



## mbhabfan

Just finishing up the application tonight, birth certificates, marriage cert..etc.  The references will be a couple of days and then I will be sending the application to Winnipeg cfrc the first of next week.  Do I submit the reference questionnaires or do the references send them directly to the recruiting centre?


----------



## cathtaylor

Submit your references in person. Don't have your references mail them in. It's always best to have that ready and signed when you give in your application. Hope this helps

Cath


----------



## K. Wallace

Hi there. I stumbeled upon this site while doing a search and so far I've read quite a number of the topics in the recruiting section aswell as having read the threads linked in the FAQ.

I've found all this information to be extremly helpful and just wanted to say thanks for one, but I do have a few questions / concerns.

---

I'm 17 at the moment. Born November 22, 1986. So for starters, I'm barely just out of school. I dropped out at the end of my 2nd year (Gr11). I won't blame noone, it was my own stupidity that eveuntally made the decision not to go back and I do regret it now, but after not going back I found myself going from job to job (staying at various jobs for about 3 months each) with unemployment periods around 2 months inbetween. Now under the work experience column there isn't enough room to list all periods of employment + unemployment. Do I leave it as it is? (all spaces filled), or get a piece of blank paper and write any more to account for the 5yrs?

Next is regarding the references. Now I moved to Edmonton about July 2000, so any references that would be eligible (No relatives, etc) living in Edmonton would be 4 years. Of which I only have 2 (friends since grade 9) however one is not 18 yet. It says on the Reference form that the person filling it out agrees that they are an adult. So is the friend who is 17 ineligible as a reference?

I lived in Fort McMurray just 437Km north of Edmonton beforeand. Now I know people there who have known me for longer, however I haven't kept in contact with them ever since I did move. So it would most likely be futile to use anyone I knew there.

So I figure that I would have at least one friend reference (4 years), and one of my Highschool teachers who was an awesome guy and knew me well (2 Years), would these be good enough for references?

You would think that a new member would have more question then what I have asked, but truthfully everything I was curious about (glasses, teeth problems, pay etc) every minute thing I could think of, and some I didn't think of and read about, was answered by these great forums. Wanted to say thanks, and I will continue to visit. ^_^


----------



## Ender57

Firstly, this has been covered to death in other threads, but for your sake I'll try to answer your questions. If you have run out of room on the employment section of the application then get a piece of paper and keep on going until you go back far enough. For references you need enough to cover five years, so the two you listed would be okay, but for the teacher I would be a bit careful considering that you dropped out of school.

Just so you know and to prepare you for it, you are most likely going to run into some problems when going through the recruiting process. Especially with the fact that you haven't held any single job for a long period of time and that you dropped out of school. The CF are looking for people who will stay in for at least the three years and with your past history they may tell you that they're not too sure about you. But who knows what will happen, I hope it goes well for you.


----------



## PnZGhost

Good afternoon, how is everyone doing?
     I just recently moved to Ottawa and i've decided (after almost two years of debating it) to apply for the Reg Forces.   
The question at hand is, I have one letter of reference here completed, but I dont know anyone else in the area that can fill out the other one for me.   I do however have a full (non-CF application) letter of reference from my former boss back in the Comox Valley.   Is this going to be valid, or should I snail mail a letter back home for someone to fill out? 
Thanks a bunch!


----------



## PnZGhost

Thank you very much.. So I DO need the letters of reference to apply for a NCM position then? Or is that only for officer?
Thanks again!


----------



## winchable

Do


----------



## Ender57

Also make sure that your referance letters are up to recent and up to date. It will save you a lot of hastle. Good luck


----------



## Raptor

As of yesterday, my application for the armed forces is now complete.  However, the recruiting officer told me it would increase my chances to have a few more reference letters from former employers.  Not necessary mind you, but helpfull.  So...as the deadline approaches for the fall board (DEO applicant here), I would like to know if anyone knows where I might find a "Letter of Reference for Applicant" document on the internet so I can forward the link.  I checked the DND website, but perhaps I am not choosing the correct search words.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## jonsey

Hey, wow, cool, someone bumped one of my threads!

I don't know if they'll put more weight into this person's opinion of you over a civilian. Worst case scenerio, they treat it like any other positive reference. So, go ahead.


----------



## humint

Jonsey:

No offence, but you talk like a pro recruiter. 

Have you applied as of yet? C'mon man, get that application in to CFRC ASAP!


----------



## spenco

I've been looking at the recruiting website, I d/l'd the application form but I couldnt find the link for the letters of references.  I got the generic recruiting cd from the CFRC but it dosent have the forms there either, so I was wondering if it is still required.


----------



## Tracker

Are you sure the letter forms are not on the disk?  Is it the disk with the application on it?  Yes, two standard letters of reference are still required.


----------



## AndrewD83

All of the forms are on the disk.  I printed off the MP forms and was looking at the regular forms on the disk only a few weeks ago.


----------



## spenco

Yes, the forms are on the disc but not on the NCM section, they seem to be there for every other section except for that one.  I couldnt find the forms online either and they werent mentioned on the documents you had to bring when handing in your application.


----------



## Bobby147

I applied for DEO and my security clearance is being done.

Do CF just call references or personally meet and interview them? 

I am questioning this as my references live in smaller towns. 

Thanks,

Bobby


----------



## kincanucks

Bobby147 said:
			
		

> I applied for DEO and my security clearance is being done.
> 
> Do CF just call references or personally meet and interview them?
> 
> I am questioning this as my references live in smaller towns.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bobby



Well I don't think you are talking about security clearance since you just have applied so you must be refering to the Enhanced Reliability Check (ERC) (5 years) and the references are the two references you handed in with your application?

For the ERC they normally don't call, not meet, your references unless there is something that is unusual or unclear in the reference letters.


----------



## FredDaHead

kincanucks said:
			
		

> Well I don't think you are talking about security clearance since you just have applied so you must be refering to the Enhanced Reliability Check (ERC) (5 years) and the references are the two references you handed in with your application?
> 
> For the ERC they normally don't call, not meet, your references unless there is something that is unusual or unclear in the reference letters.



What about the security clearance one? (Where you need 3 references and one neighborhood reference) Is everything you write in there "just in case"?


----------



## kincanucks

No its not there "just in case", DA.  Those references will be contacted.


----------



## Bobby147

Thanks kincanucks for your reply....  

Those three references would be contacted by phone only ????

In the form it is written that if your references live in different geographical area than it will take more time.

Thanks again....

Bobb


----------



## Fideo

Frederik G said:
			
		

> What about the security clearance one? (Where you need 3 references and one neighborhood reference) Is everything you write in there "just in case"?



Sorry guys...little confused. I thought you only needed two references only. Cheers.


----------



## TCBF

Don't list long lost cousins in Elbownia as a joke. The guys who do the clearances have a budget to meet, just like everything else.  If they can do five other clearances to the cost of doing yours, guess whose gets put on the back burner?


----------



## FredDaHead

TCBF said:
			
		

> Don't list long lost cousins in Elbownia as a joke. The guys who do the clearances have a budget to meet, just like everything else.   If they can do five other clearances to the cost of doing yours, guess whose gets put on the back burner?



About that (sorry, it just reminded me of it)... The paragraph about "close relatives" is a bit fuzzy. Do you include all your family, including uncles, aunts, cousins, and grandparents? Because it says (translating from the French version) "children over 18" that you are related to. And the next line says "your father, your mother, your brothers, your sisters and (...) any person with who you are related to because of unions."

Usually, "famille immédiate" means your parents and siblings, and if applicable your wife/husband, their parents/siblings, and your kids. And if "familly immédiate" includes uncles and such, then what constitutes "famille éloignée"? Your whole family tree? Putting all my family would require more spaces than the form gives me, anyways. (I'm fairly certain I have more cousins than there are spaces)

Sorry to make you lose your time KincanucksMan. Or whoever ends up answering.


----------



## ZxExN

Hi I'm applying to be a Pilot from DEO program. I'm doing my ACS next week but I was wondering would it help my file if I told them that one of my reference was a police officer and not just a friend? Is it the case that certain references are given more points than others or are they all treated the same and in that case, don't even bother clarifying that?

Thanks.


----------



## civvy3840

ZxExN said:
			
		

> Hi I'm applying to be a Pilot from DEO program. I'm doing my ACS next week but I was wondering would it help my file if I told them that one of my reference was a police officer and not just a friend? Is it the case that certain references are given more points than others or are they all treated the same and in that case, don't even bother clarifying that?
> 
> Thanks.



I'm sure that the CF would treat all references the same. However that being said I'm not 100% sure, you should ask Kincanucks.


----------



## Zombie

Maybe your friend can just add his credentials with his name when he signs the form. One of my references was from a high school friend who is now a dentist, and he just put the Dr. in front of his name when he signed the reference form. If it doesn't get you "more points", it definitely won't hurt you.


----------



## kincanucks

References, ahhh my favourite subject especially ROTP SLORs.  When I am preparing to do a ROTP interview, in fact any interview, and I pull out the references and I see the word friend then the reference goes back into the file unread.  So if you really want a job in the CF why wouldn't you put some effort in getting references from people that can honestly and without bias comment on your abilities and attributes?  Just perplexes me sometimes.


----------



## ZxExN

Well it's true he's my friend and also a police officer. It's like if I got a reference from my supervisor who is also a good friend. The two are always mutually exclusive. Would it be of any benefit to add to the file his credentials?


----------



## projectile

make them put "coworker" or "supervisor" when it asks on the form: What is your relation to this person? 
Or what I did was, my friends put bad stuff about me when they filled out my forms, make it seem non-biased.


----------



## Jaxson

says right on the reference form that you had to of known the person for 5 years.


----------



## M Feetham

try using your freinds parents, especially if you spend alot  of time with the family. All the other suggestions seem good to me too. If you don't have anyone that has known you for five years, then go with the ones that have known you the longest and work your way down from there.
Marc


----------



## Sixshooter

i used my doctor that ive known for about 3-4 and half years, and my gf's mom :S i havent known either for a full 5 years, so they're not strict but it has to be atleast a number of years.


----------



## M Feetham

Insanehuman said:
			
		

> Ok guys. I don't know any employer/teacher for 5 years. Two years of high school and the only person that knows me best is my Gym teacher. Should i take a reference from him or my road in military is closed?



Another thing to consider is the type of people you ask for references, if you ask your alcoholic wife beating next door neighbor; bad karma. You want to run with the professional type of person. Police officers if you know any, or members of the military. Try to stay away from the dark side. Unemployed or people with criminal records generally do not make the best references. 
Good luck, looking forward to having you in a platoon.
Marc


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

He's already gone Tess.........


----------



## the 48th regulator

Cheers my brother,

But I was enjoyning my new nightly fun... 

hehehe

dileas

tess


----------



## Insanehuman

Good suggestion ShawnSmith. I fell more confident now!


----------



## IamCanadian

I had a friend that i've known for 10 years and owns his own business, and my ex-girlfriend's mom as 2 of my references. Do you think these are good choices? I am also going to get 2 of my ex-employers to do them to.


----------



## double0three

My 2 additional references I needed for ROTP were both friends.  However both friends were co-workers as well, in a work environment and also at school.  I did list them as 'friends' so hopefully that didn't hurt me.  My friends actually rated me a lot tougher than the other forms I got, haha.  They are definately not biased at all, they were pretty honest with their answers.

And the 2 standardized forms I got, were filled out by individuals in the army and navy, of a half decent rank.  So while I doubt it will give me better chances, it probably won't hurt me!!


----------



## Hadrian

Makaveli said:
			
		

> I had a friend that I've known for 10 years and owns his own business, and my ex-girlfriend's mom as 2 of my references. Do you think these are good choices? I am also going to get 2 of my ex-employers to do them to.



That looks like a good start, maybe add someone who can vouch for your learning ability, like a teacher, instructor or professor. Institutional professionals' opinions of you will generally carry more weight....Even a member of the clergy if you know one could be helpful.

I used my University profs.


----------



## IamCanadian

Most of the teachers I had in high school aren't there anymore, and it is unlikely that the ones that are would remember me well enough to give an informed reference. I was recently in driving school, would my instructor there be an OK reference?


----------



## Hadrian

Makaveli said:
			
		

> Most of the teachers I had in high school aren't there anymore, and it is unlikely that the ones that are would remember me well enough to give an informed reference. I was recently in driving school, would my instructor there be an OK reference?


 
Unless the Driving instructor has known you for 3 years, I wouldn't bother asking for a reference. If you've played any sports, ask a coach; The employers references will be useful, in any case.


----------



## misfit

If the refrences turn out to be garbage, when would one  find out during the application process?


----------



## kincanucks

misfit said:
			
		

> If the refrences turn out to be garbage, when would one  find out during the application process?



If your references are unacceptable you will be told that when the recruiter who receives your application when you hand it in.


----------



## misfit

Ahhh, ok - thank you very much for the response kincanucks.


----------



## derael

kincanucks said:
			
		

> References, ahhh my favourite subject especially ROTP SLORs.  When I am preparing to do a ROTP interview, in fact any interview, and I pull out the references and I see the word friend then the reference goes back into the file unread.  So if you really want a job in the CF why wouldn't you put some effort in getting references from people that can honestly and without bias comment on your abilities and attributes?  Just perplexes me sometimes.



I can see your point but I have to disagree.(to an extent)

Friend or not, the applicant is not likely to hand in anything that says something bad about him/her or that would make him/her look like a bad candidate, so pretty much any reference could be a bias one. If the CF wanted to prevent that type of issue all together they could try some alternative measure such as taking 10-15 minutes to phone the reference to see if they can back up what they claim to know about the applicant. Its a lot easier to spot BS when you can hear someone over the phone not just writing on paper. Plus there's a good chance the reference won't remember exactly what they put on the sheet, so if they were honest, the answers on the sheet should generally correspond with what they've said over the phone.

Is my opinion on this bias? Probably, but I think I still have a valid point. I went the CEOTP route and one of my references was a friend that I've had for a good 10 years now and of all the people in the world he probably knows my character the best. My other was a former roomate, coworker and friend of 4 years. Just because they are friends I don't believe that makes them bad references. If the CF didn't want these types of references then they should just simply not allow them.

I guess I'll just have to hope kincanucks isn't the one reviewing my references.


----------



## kincanucks

derael said:
			
		

> I can see your point but I have to disagree.(to an extent)
> 
> Friend or not, the applicant is not likely to hand in anything that says something bad about him/her or that would make him/her look like a bad candidate, so pretty much any reference could be a bias one. If the CF wanted to prevent that type of issue all together they could try some alternative measure such as taking 10-15 minutes to phone the reference to see if they can back up what they claim to know about the applicant. Its a lot easier to spot BS when you can hear someone over the phone not just writing on paper. Plus there's a good chance the reference won't remember exactly what they put on the sheet, so if they were honest, the answers on the sheet should generally correspond with what they've said over the phone.
> 
> Is my opinion on this bias? Probably, but I think I still have a valid point. I went the CEOTP route and one of my references was a friend that I've had for a good 10 years now and of all the people in the world he probably knows my character the best. My other was a former roomate, coworker and friend of 4 years. Just because they are friends I don't believe that makes them bad references. If the CF didn't want these types of references then they should just simply not allow them.
> 
> I guess I'll just have to hope kincanucks isn't the one reviewing my references.



Well you can read my signature can't you.  Actually we will phone references if we think there may be issues or the reference has made some 'interesting' comments.  You will notice that I was mainly referring to ROTP applicants where the letters of reference are very specific and ask for specific comments that pertain to the interview.  So yes a friend could be sufficeint for any other entry plan except ROTP.  I personally don't like to see them in a file because I think it is laziness on the part of the applicant.  My opinion.  Cheers.


----------



## derael

Point taken. I wish I had a larger source of references. Unfortunatly I'm stuck with the ones I had availible to me. Past employers wasn't really an option because all my previous supervisors have moved on to other jobs and I have no idea where they are located now. Also one of my previous employers will not give references to anyone, for anything. Even if they did thats going back a while because I've been self-employed for almost a year now. I could have gone back to my high school, but then again I graduated in 2002 so I'm not sure if they would be relevant anymore.

Either way thank you for clearing that up.


----------



## dvst8ng

A current supervisor of myself in a supervisory role and a Major, would these be suitable refrences for application in the  officer program. (armor recci)


----------



## Temoid

I think I'm in the same boat as derael. Came to Canada 5 years ago and had a hard time coming up with potential references. All my employers and teachers have known me for no longer than a year. Therefore, I settled for a close friend and a family friend who's been my driving instructor. Hopefully it will work out.

*_Milnet.ca staff edit for site policy_*


----------



## cftoronto

curious, Can you use a Godparent as a reference?


----------



## kincanucks

cftoronto said:
			
		

> curious, Can you use a Godparent as a reference?



Yes.

HH


----------



## kincanucks

Boater said:
			
		

> One of my refrence sheets got a bit messed up it's one of the ones that goes into great detail, the other one is in fine condition though, but what i'm wondering is the refrences that you can print from the DND site are the ones with only your refrences contact information, and spots for 3 refrences, is it acceptable to hand in one of each? or should they be the same? Finally since I noticed that the one is for 3 refrences does that mean I need 3 in total as the CFRC only gave me 2 to begin with.



You need to provide the information that is required, no more and no less.  This is the form (http://64.254.158.112/pdf/letter_ref_en.pdf) and you should not be using anything else.

HH


----------



## George Wallace

Using the SEARCH Function, one will find the FAQs and these topics that will assist you:

*Enhanced Reliability Check (a.k.a. "Security Clearance")*

Security Clearance - ERC - Enhanced Reliability Check  --  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/1399.0.html
clarification please  --  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/43259.0.html
Enhanced Reliability  --  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/13061.0.html
Security Clearance  --  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/13031.0.html
Security Clearance and spouse  --  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/42394.0.html
This waiting is awful - security checks!!?  --  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/41898.0.html


----------



## soulful

I'm applyint to the Reserves (Infantry) and have been told that I need 3 references which have known me for 5 years at least. Also, preferably all 3 would be job/education related, and if any, just 1 who is a "friend".

I've never worked at the same place for 5 years straight, so how the heck am I gonna pull this off?

...Or was the recruiting Sgt. just telling me the "ideal" references.

Hey - I can't pull a rabbit out of a hat, ya know? Anyone up to speed on the exact wording on the application regarding references, and who they can be?

Thanks.


----------



## Pea

On the reference form it states that ONE of the 3 references must have known you for 5 years or longer. I had a hard time with this at first, but did find someone. (youth leader, teacher, adult long time family friend... so on)

Good Luck.


----------



## soulful

So the other two can be anyone you want I presume?

And can the 5-year person be a friend who also happened to be your boss at a job you were both at for a couple years? (In total he's known me for around 20 years...)

Thanks


----------



## Pea

I'm no recruiter, but I don't see why not. I used an ex's dad for my long term reference who happened to be one of my cadet leaders at one point too. They accepted that, and said they just needed someone who knew me enough to provide a character reference that wasn't related to me.

Hope that helps.


----------



## soulful

Awesome - Thanks. The other two will be close friends. (One is a Dr., and the other is a municipal Security Officer).

I'm hoping this will suffice. Thanks again for your help.


----------



## Marshall

Hello,

I was wondering if a girlfriend who ive had SINCE 16 is a proper reference for the 'personal' one. She isnt really family.. yet.
jobs@forces.ca wouldnt give me a awnser.

thanks


----------



## kincanucks

Now she wouldn't be bias would she?

No.


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

;D

You don't have a former coach, teacher, employer or someone similar that can act as a reference? Or did you burn those bridges?


----------



## Marshall

Moody said:
			
		

> ;D
> 
> You don't have a former coach, teacher, employer or someone similar that can act as a reference? Or did you burn those bridges?



That was not my question.

I was asking solely on the personal one

It asks for a Personal, Employer and Education. Employer and Education ARE covered. And what personal wouldnt most likely be biased? It states friends are fine, which i know wouldnt go saying im a dirtbag and all that.


----------



## kincanucks

_Personal References: These persons are neighbours, *family friends*, religious/spiritual leaders or community leaders who have
known you through various stages of your life._

Family friends are those that know you family not just you so no your personal friends are not acceptable.  Find a family friend, a professional is perfect, who has known you and YOUR FAMILY since you were 16 years old.  This is not rocket science.


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

_Who Can Be a Reference?
Any adult, who is not immediate family or a relative, can act as a reference. Your references must have known you for at least five
(5) continuous years (or to age 16, whichever comes first). It is advisable to choose references who can provide information about
you from a variety of different perspectives. These people must be able to tell the interviewer about your personal character.
• Employment References: These persons are former or current co-workers, supervisors or employers.
• Educational References: These persons are former or current teachers, professors or coaches who will attest to how quickly
you learn and how diligent you are/ were as a student.
• Personal References: These persons are neighbours, family friends, religious/spiritual leaders or community leaders who have
known you through various stages of your life._

http://64.254.158.97/pdf/letter_ref_en.pdf


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

Marshall said:
			
		

> That was not my question.
> 
> I was asking solely on the personal one
> 
> It asks for a Personal, Employer and Education. Employer and Education ARE covered. And what personal wouldnt most likely be biased? It states friends are fine, which i know wouldnt go saying im a dirtbag and all that.



I don't think you have to chose one personal, one professional, and one educational. Those are examples of references. For example, I had two former employers and a colleague.

(There, I populated my double post)


----------



## fire_guy686

I would suggest asking a good friend or their parents, somebody who has known you for quite some time.


----------



## dwalter

If you are part of any clubs, sports teams, or community involvement, the leaders of those groups make very good personal references.


----------



## Fische35

In the application form I got. It says I need 3 refrences, all of which have to have known me for 5 years? I cant think of anyone who's known me for 5 years!! I've never had a job before. And the only people that have known my for 5 years, aside from family, are my two coaches.


----------



## Fische35

Moody said:
			
		

> _Who Can Be a Reference?
> Any adult, who is not immediate family or a relative, can act as a reference. Your references must have known you for at least five
> (5) continuous years (or to age 16, whichever comes first). It is advisable to choose references who can provide information about
> you from a variety of different perspectives. These people must be able to tell the interviewer about your personal character.
> • Employment References: These persons are former or current co-workers, supervisors or employers.
> • Educational References: These persons are former or current teachers, professors or coaches who will attest to how quickly
> you learn and how diligent you are/ were as a student.
> • Personal References: These persons are neighbours, family friends, religious/spiritual leaders or community leaders who have
> known you through various stages of your life._
> 
> http://64.254.158.97/pdf/letter_ref_en.pdf
> 
> I've never had a job, so I cant use an employment referance...Also, I havent lived in this city for very long. So aside from my two coaches, there's no one I've known for at least 5 years. What do I do about this?


----------



## Michael OLeary

Moody said:
			
		

> What do I do about this?



Ask the CFRC.


----------



## Grando

friends of your parents are perfect


----------



## Koenigsegg

It's 5 years or from the age of 16, which ever comes first.
Myself, going on 19, will be more free to use character references of people I have known since grade 11 as I was 16 at  that time.


----------



## Matty Lowe

I spent 4 years in recruitment, the best reference letters come from individuals who are in a position of authority; the higher they are educated the better. The last thing you need is a poorly written reference letter. The letter writer should give several examples why they feel you are best suited for a military career. E.g. competed several years in organized sports; leadership role in organized sports, army cadets, scouts; and, work history. Even a simple job delivering newspapers as a kid is important because it shows you have experience in time management and accountability. You also don't have to be a jock; equipment manager is just as important because it shows you are a team player. The important thing to remember you are competing with other individuals for a job, what you don’t want as a letter stating that they have known you for many years and you’re a really good kid.


----------



## kincanucks

Matty Lowe said:
			
		

> I spent 4 years in recruitment, the best reference letters come from individuals who are in a position of authority; the higher they are educated the better. The last thing you need is a poorly written reference letter. The letter writer should give several examples why they feel you are best suited for a military career. E.g. competed several years in organized sports; leadership role in organized sports, army cadets, scouts; and, work history. Even a simple job delivering newspapers as a kid is important because it shows you have experience in time management and accountability. You also don't have to be a jock; equipment manager is just as important because it shows you are a team player. The important thing to remember you are competing with other individuals for a job, what you don’t want as a letter stating that they have known you for many years and you’re a really good kid.



All good advice if they still had to submit reference letters.  Now they just submit the name and the contact information.
http://64.254.158.97/pdf/letter_ref_en.pdf


----------



## Matty Lowe

There nothing preventing the applicant from asking the individual to make reference to all of the above should they be contacted.


----------



## kincanucks

Matty Lowe said:
			
		

> There nothing preventing the applicant from asking the individual to make reference to all of the above should they be contacted.



The questions asked of the reference are specific and whether or not the applicant *asked the reference to make reference to all of the above should they be contacted * is irrelevant.


----------



## Matty Lowe

When I was a recruiter other ranks didn't require letters of reference, but did have to provide the names of 3 individuals on the application; however, smart applicants provided letters of references, and reference was made to these letters when interview was being written up.


----------



## kincanucks

Matty Lowe said:
			
		

> When I was a recruiter other ranks didn't require letters of reference, but did have to provide the names of 3 individuals on the application; however, smart applicants provided letters of references, and reference was made to these letters when interview was being written up.



Yes that is what happened when we rode around in chariots. ;D


----------



## Greymatters

kincanucks said:
			
		

> Yes that is what happened when we rode around in chariots. ;D



Reference letters required from your centurian, blacksmith, and spear-carrier...   ;D


----------



## ringer98

Hey everyone. Brand new to this site, and I just want to start off by saying thank-you for everyone posting very accurate information on various topics, whether it would be recruiting info, course questions or general information. I had most of my questions answered without even asking any questions, or even having to sign up till this point! So once again thank-you.

I signed up for infantry on August 8/08 and have since done my CFAT, and was able to qualify for officer under the CEOTP program, so I chose that route instead. I have nothing wrong with going the NCM route, just thought that the officer route fit my criteria better. So I have done my medicals, and passed my interviews for Infantry officer. 

So this is now my question. I have been talking to my references today, 2 out of 3 have been contacted. Does anyone have an educated guess on when (or if) I should expect a call, or letter, one way or the other?


----------



## lennoj

No one can say for certain what the timeframe is. Your reference checks have correlations with your security clearance as well as your trustworthiness as a Canadian(Refering to the GSP). Off note - It is illegal under employment law(with roots within common law) to give a bad reference for employment purposes. Just a silly fact... 

It took me 2 months to complete the process, and it has taken others upwards of 7 or 8 months, and a few lucky souls who had a fly through with the recruiting process...Be patient and follow up from time to time.

Edit: Typo/Naughty Grammer: Threw-Through


----------



## zysr

Hi, I'm filling out the application now to join part time reserve, and it says here to fill in non-family references.  I don't have any....will this be a large problem?

thanks.


----------



## Celticgirl

zysr said:
			
		

> Hi, I'm filling out the application now to join part time reserve, and it says here to fill in non-family references.  I don't have any....will this be a large problem?
> 
> thanks.



What about:

- Teachers
- Coaches
- Camp counsellors
- Neighbours
- Family friends

You need people who have positive things to say about you - your work ethic, your character, etc. Surely you know at least three who can fill the bill?


----------



## Marinero2008

zysr said:
			
		

> Hi, I'm filling out the application now to join part time reserve, and it says here to fill in non-family references.  I don't have any....will this be a large problem?



It may be a problem...You sure you don't have anybody? Your former teachers, managers from work, family doctor?

Word of advice: whatever they ask you to provide: documents, information etc., make sure you submit them. Your application process will not move an inch unless you provide what is asked of you. I experienced that myself.


----------



## CFR FCS

I would strongly advise NOT using your doctor as they are almost impossible to get on the phone during normal working hours when the telephone reference checks are usually made.  Teachers are also hard to contact unless you get their home number. The easiest ones are  retired family friends  / neighbours. The reference checks are usually what takes the longest time to complete after the interview.


----------



## George Wallace

zysr said:
			
		

> Hi, I'm filling out the application now to join part time reserve, and it says here to fill in non-family references.  I don't have any....will this be a large problem?
> 
> thanks.



As you are filling out the form; did you bother to read the instructions.  It clearly states in the instructions, that accompany that form, whom you may, or may not, put down as a Reference.


----------



## zysr

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> What about:
> 
> - Teachers
> - Coaches
> - Camp counsellors
> - Neighbours
> - Family friends
> 
> You need people who have positive things to say about you - your work ethic, your character, etc. Surely you know at least three who can fill the bill?



Thanks for the help, but I honestly can't think of ONE to fit the bill...forget three..

So not having references is going to hold me from joining the part-time reserves?


----------



## Teflon

It definitely raises eyebrows when an application comes in and the person doesn't provide any references. It seems to point to one of two things:

1. Couldn't be bothered to find any (leading the CFRC to think you don't take the process and application very seriously)

2. Couldn't find three people to say anything good about you (Leading the CFRC to wonder if the CF really wants you)

Not saying either of these apply to you or not (I don't know you) but one can see how certain conclusions could be made quite easily


----------



## whitey

Don't know if this helps or gives you any ideas but, I used my:
Chiropractor
Phys.ed Teacher/Volleyball coach
Hockey Coach


----------



## TheSam

For my nearly coplete application (just waiting on the transcripts) I used:

My highschool Stagecraft Teacher (and later employer)
A close friend that I've known since Jr High
The manager of my college residence, who later became my boss when I picked up a job as an RA


Your bound to have someone that will say something positive about you.


----------



## aesop081

scouthern said:
			
		

> Alright, what the hell is this  ;D. All you of you have three references they want me to have 5 and I've lived in this country since birth  :



1- What did the CFRC tell you to do ?
2- Do what they told you
3- The end


----------



## Greymatters

zysr said:
			
		

> Thanks for the help, but I honestly can't think of ONE to fit the bill...forget three..



Not even an employer or former employer?  Remember that the purpose of the reference letter is not just to say "he's a great guy" but also to confirm that you are who you say you are...


----------



## BC Old Guy

scouthern said:
			
		

> Alright, what the hell is this  ;D. All you of you have three references they want me to have 5 and I've lived in this country since birth  :



Are you certain that's what was said?  Or was it references that have known you for 5 years?

Ask the CFRC staff why they have a different requirement than that listed on the website.  That should clarify the situation, since there is a national, standardized process that is being used.


----------



## George Wallace

scouthern said:
			
		

> Nope, during my CFAT they told me to fill out a new application and it was a new reference sheet. It says please list FIVE references who have known you for 5+ years.



Well.  As someone who has something to do with recruiting, this is something new to me and some others.  Perhaps, seeing as you have this form now in your possession, you can look in the bottom left corner and tell us what FORM NUMBER this form is?  Inquiring minds would like to know.


----------



## George Wallace

Every Government Form has an Document Number.  Look again........or perhaps a scan would help.


----------



## BC Old Guy

With the info provided about Backcheck, I think I know whats happening. Recruiting is developing a new reference check process, which uses a contractor.  That contractor is Backcheck, and the form would be what they are using to gather data to do the check.  Vancouver was the first site to be used, to work out the kinks.  If you have questions, you'll have to take it up with the CFRC.


----------



## aesop081

scouthern said:
			
		

> Are too many undesirables sneaking their way into the CF? I have nothing to hide but this is just another step back in the recruiting process, it's done by a contracting company, and god knows when they'll ever get to my application check, once the CF submits this form to backcheck my process is halted until BackCheck decides to scrutinize my 17 years of life  :.
> 
> Yah yah, be patient, let the process take it's course  :-\



 :crybaby:

You whine like you are the first one to ever have a backgroundcheck ! I hate to break it to you kid but for my level 3 i had to pull 20 years worth of adresses, they talked to my neighbours, called coworkers, etc, etc, etc.......and i was already in the CF for 11 years. You are just some nobody trying to join so, yes, they are going to check on you too !

It is not a "step back", it is part of the process. Stop whining and start doing what is required of you.


----------



## CountDC

scouthern said:
			
		

> Are too many undesirables sneaking their way into the CF? I have nothing to hide but this is just another step back in the recruiting process, it's done by a contracting company, and god knows when they'll ever get to my application check, once the CF submits this form to backcheck my process is halted until BackCheck decides to scrutinize my 17 years of life  :.
> 
> Yah yah, be patient, let the process take it's course  :-\



for someone not through the process yet you are making a large assumption there.  Sounds to me like this is actually a step forward as we now have a company dedicated to doing the checks instead of overworked recruiting staff and military police doing it. To me this should actually speed up the process vice drag it out. 

My only concern is the 5 references of 5+ years. I know I could not meet this requirement nor will my children and it does seem unreasonable.  Never had a teacher for 5 years, doctors, neighbours, etc change when we move so the new ones cannot be used and the old ones cannot vouch for the last couple years. A quick run through leaves me with 1 family friend and 1 personal friend meeting the requirement of 5+ years and I have not seen them for over 2 years. Most people I would classify as friends now I have not known for 5 years yet. My children do not have any friends they have known for over 2 years, the doctor has known them for 1 year, no teacher has known them for 5 years either. Work references are out - posted every few years so could not meet the 5+ years requirement. Seems to me these requirements may be short changing one of our best recruiting basis - family members of those already serving and moved around due to that service. Hopefully this is not a strict must have or forget it thing - there is leeway for certain circumstances. Hate to think my childrens chances at the military are ruined because I already serve.


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

A lot has changed: the three references I provided were not contacted when I applied for the Regs or Res. I guess that is why I was able to "sneak" in.


----------



## stryte

scouthern said:
			
		

> Yes, I do have a problem with the 5+ years of references for FIVE people, I'm 17, besides friends, who the hell would a 17 year old know since 12 besides family. So I'm wondering if a combination of the references adding to 5 continuous years is acceptable?



The current form on the CF recruiting website (which I realize is not the one you have) states:

"_Your references must have known you for at least five (5) continuous years (or to age 16, whichever comes first)._"

I bet if you were to address this at your CFRC this may be the same. Further, I realize this may be challenging for. Take a deep breath, it is not all doom and gloom.


----------



## ackland

scouthern said:
			
		

> Yes, I do have a problem with the 5+ years of references for FIVE people, I'm 17, besides friends, who the hell would a 17 year old know since 12 besides family. So I'm wondering if a combination of the references adding to 5 continuous years is acceptable?



As was stated above they have to have know you to 16 years old. not five years. I am a recruiter and I hope this helps.


----------



## platoon_man

Hi, i am currently applying for RMC
I was asked to provide 3 references, and one of which has to have known me for 5 continuous years.... 
But what if i don't have that sort of reference?
I was an immigrant moved here when i was 10-ish, now i'm 17, and i moved around a bit too, so i don't know much people.

If i was to provide references that might only fulfill 2 or 3 years, but my other stuffs like grades are extremely good, would the recruiter sorta ignore the fact that there is no 5 year reference?


----------



## platoon_man

thanks for fixing my mistake.. i don't know where to post my questions lol...

so can i make it up? Can i say for example that i know my junior high teacher for 5 continuous years... (like i would stay in contact with former teachers...)

*edit* nvm
i have spotted an earlier reply, it says if you can't fill 5 years, then find the longest one possible, can i do that?



			
				M Feetham said:
			
		

> try using your freinds parents, especially if you spend alot  of time with the family. All the other suggestions seem good to me too. If you don't have anyone that has known you for five years, then go with the ones that have known you the longest and work your way down from there.
> Marc



thanks to M Feetham


----------



## aesop081

platoon_man said:
			
		

> i have spotted an earlier reply, it says if you can't fill 5 years, then find the longest one possible, can i do that?



Here is an incredibly "out of the box" idea.......

*TOMOROW IS FREAKIN MONDAY......CALL THE CFRC AND ASK THEM*

That way you are not doing something that could be wrong , just because some guy , somehwere on the net said so.......


 :


----------



## platoon_man

what does it mean though? it's on my reference sheet and i'm kinda confused by what it means... I think the 16 y ears they meant somebody who has known you throughout your life.... Because they didn't excatly gave where they have to start knowing you from... Or are they saying They have to know you since you became 16?


----------



## stryte

platoon_man said:
			
		

> what does it mean though? it's on my reference sheet and i'm kinda confused by what it means... I think the 16 y ears they meant somebody who has known you throughout your life.... Because they didn't excatly gave where they have to start knowing you from... Or are they saying They have to know you since you became 16?



I will give you an example. If I were 18 than the expectation would be that my references had known me to the age of 16, so 2 years. Hope it is clear now.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

platoon_man said:
			
		

> thanks for fixing my mistake.. i don't know where to post my questions lol...
> 
> so can i make it up? Can i say for example that i know my junior high teacher for 5 continuous years... (like i would stay in contact with former teachers...)
> 
> *edit* nvm
> i have spotted an earlier reply, it says if you can't fill 5 years, then find the longest one possible, can i do that?
> 
> thanks to M Feetham



Despite the fact you crossed it out think of what you are suggesting. You just said you would be willing to falsify information on a government form (that's a CRIME)...if you willing to do that, it calls into question your reliability and trustworthiness. I really don't think the CF is for you, if you are contemplating lying like that.


----------



## aesop081

platoon_man said:
			
		

> what does it mean though?



Do i need to tell you the same thing again ?



			
				platoon_man said:
			
		

> This problem is haunting me for a week!



Have you called the CFRC to ask them at all during that week ?


Fuck, even my 11 year old has figured out what to do about your problem when i read your posts to her........


----------



## platoon_man

Some rather self-indulged nerds like me spend too much time thinking about mathematics and science questions... and often forgets to make a simple phone call..... My bad.. When i 'm this embarased I always say "Einstein forgot his key the day he wed"

I will call to confirm... Jeez.. i'm not going to destroy myself...


----------



## ddeevveess

The whole process for me has been brutally slow.  The CFAT took a while to schedule and the earliest I could get scheduled in to do the medical/interview was a little over a month later.
On the medical I had to give some information and I had to then go to the doctors and get him to fill out a form and say that I was good to go in his opinion.  A few weeks since sending that in nothing happens, until just yesterday one of my references get called.
Now, is that a good sign?  I figured that if the medical information wasn't good enough for them, they would just stop the process and I'd get a letter saying I was unfit in the mail.  Or, do they contact your references no matter what?


----------



## Marshall

I just went through this experience in the last month so I will try to help:

Waiting a month since application is not that special, some people get in a bit sooner.. some a bit later. It just depends on the recruiters workload I'd imagine. (And some say on how impressive you are.. but I do not believe so)

For your medical, the recruiter told me that it can be up to 5 weeks for it to get back from Ottawa from when you GIVE THEM the documents from the doctors. (I did not have to do this, 100% on medical. But they still went over it with me before since I had my interview THEN my medical).

If they are calling your references now, It may just mean that your medical came back and was finalized. References are pretty much called last from what I can tell, then the application (if all goes well with the calls) is usually finalized 1-2 weeks later. I got word from one of my references that they had been called about a week prior to the CFRC Recruiter who was dealing with me told me he was finalizing my application.


Like I said, personal experience. It can differ greatly from individual to individual. But I hope I help a bit.

-Marshall


----------



## Niteshade

> If they are calling your references now, It may just mean that your medical came back and was finalized. References are pretty much called last from what I can tell, then the application (if all goes well with the calls) is usually finalized 1-2 weeks later.



Can anyone confirm that the references are called last (AFTER the medical is cleared)?

Thanks,

Nites


----------



## jeffb

In my case, my references were only called after my medical was cleared.


----------



## kincanucks

You do know that the reference checking has been contracted out?  So I wouldn't worry about when your references are checked just be grateful that that part of the processing is moving along.


----------



## George Wallace

scouthern said:
			
		

> Yes, the DND no longer runs the reference checks. It is a company called "Backcheck". And they contact the references at their own discretion. My medical was not complete yet my references (all of them) were contacted.



BackCheck does not contact the references "at their own discretion".  They are contracted to contact the references (5) and complete their contract within 48 hrs in the majority of cases.  They bid for and received the contract to do this, and will be held to it.


----------



## LuvsMud

Is this the case for all candidates/recruiting centers? Or is this a fairly new procedure? I was only asked for three references and of those only one was contacted by the interviewer himself who said there was no need to contact the others. This was a few weeks ago.


----------



## George Wallace

LuvsMud said:
			
		

> Is this the case for all candidates/recruiting centers? Or is this a fairly new procedure? I was only asked for three references and of those only one was contacted by the interviewer himself who said there was no need to contact the others. This was a few weeks ago.



This is the new procedure, but it has not been implemented at all CFRCs just yet, so be prepared for it.  It is in the process of being implemented at all CFRCs now.  It may be implemented at your CFRC before all your processing has been completed.


----------



## Marshall

Similar experience to Luvsmud, I believe only 1 of 3 of my references were contacted and the rest he said was unnecessary. My application got finalized so they probably would not be calling any more now?


----------



## Niteshade

I am getting feedback from my references that this ist he case. Only 1 of my 3 references was contacted.

Nites


----------



## Haggis

Perhaps your first reference was sufficiently convincing and impressive that no further checks were required.  Or, it could have gone the other way.  >


----------



## koopa

My reference was contacted over 3 months ago. Im still waiting to get my medical back from Ottawa


----------



## Marshall

koopa said:
			
		

> My reference was contacted over 3 months ago. Im still waiting to get my medical back from Ottawa



:/ yeah people have had some long waits with medical from what I have heard


----------



## Niteshade

Niteshade said:
			
		

> Can anyone confirm that the references are called last (AFTER the medical is cleared)?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Nites



Just as an update. I have spoken to the Medical officer at the CFRC, and while my references have been called, by medical is not yet cleared by Ottawa. 

Nites


----------



## Marshall

Niteshade said:
			
		

> Just as an update. I have spoken to the Medical officer at the CFRC, and while my references have been called, by medical is not yet cleared by Ottawa.
> 
> Nites



So by the posts in this thread.. It pretty much depends on when they have the time to call the references it seems.


----------



## absolutecanadian

I have for the past several months been doing all of my testing and paperwork for the forces. After successfully completing my final test (medical was last) and what seemed to be a long wait, i recieved a phone call from the recruiting center. They told me that they got my file back from Ottawa and that everything was looking good, but that they had changed the process for the references and back ground check to the new BackCheck system. I was told they had sent me the new forms via email and to fill them out promptly, return them, and expect another phone call after BackCheck was finished reviewing the forms.  So i did this right away. Just wondering if anyone knows what sort of wait to expect this time before i get another phone call.


----------



## geo

umm..

is this what you're talking about...
http://www.backcheck.ca/home.htm
looks like a commercial type "full range of clearances" that the CF might have decided to sign up for.


----------



## CFR FCS

Backcheck has been contracted to do telephone reference interviews from the list of names you provided. Their mandate is supposed to have the majority of them completed in 3 days or less once the CFRC sends them the file. Once the CFRC's open up your file should move fast if that is all it is waiting for.

CFR FCS


----------



## geo

Excellent news - will ensure much faster turnaround for basic reliability checks on applicants.
3 day turnaround is VERY good IMHO - much better than when it was done "in-house"


----------



## DND1980

I recently finished all of the elements of the application process the CFAT, medical, interview and PT test. I passed all of them. When I called the recruiting centre they told me they were in the process of doing my background/reference check. They told me that they should be finished by the end of the week so I was wondering when it is complete will  finally get in? My process seems to have taken forever and even my friend in the Navy said that it doesn't sound like a "normal" process? I just want to know roughly how long before I can be sworn in? Is there is anything left for me to do?


----------



## geo

DND1980...
Enrollments made in the period leading up to XMass unfortunately fall into the black hole that is "Block Leave".

Many CF members have the oportunity to be off between Dec 13th & Jan 6th.... at the cost of one week's paid vacation time... so not much gets done during that time... 

Things should speed up now.  If you think you have waited too long.... give them a call - they may have been trying to reach you.


----------



## PMedMoe

Not to mention that everyone's application is different and what was "normal" for your Navy friend may not be "normal" for you.


----------



## Marinero2008

DND1980,
I am waiting since September last year. When I called few weeks ago they told me to call back in by mid January. As PMedMoe said, everybody's case is different...Some people wait a week and some 6 months.


----------



## George Wallace

TIMINGS - ESTIMATED TIMES FOR_______________ 

I know of people who have taken over two years to be processed, and others who have gone from application to enrollment in less than two months.  Everyone is an individual, with their own personal differences, in the process.  Once again; no one can write in stone that your application will be done in an exact timeframe.


----------



## absolutecanadian

Just posting an update. I have been contacted by 3 of my 5 references, saying that they were called by the army. Also, I recieved an e-mail from my recruiter asking should all my references checks come back fine (said should only be a few more days) what the soonest possible date I could start course would be! I will post back when I hear more!


----------



## krkbl

I'm an applicant of ROTP have done the CFAT and passed it, but since it hasn't been 10 years since i came to Canada,
they said i would have to go through the background check which would take anywhere from 6months to a year unless if i get a waiver.
I'm 17 and i came to Canada in 2002 when I was in gr 6, I am a Canadian citizen. The deadline for ROTP/RMC is coming soon and i still
have to go through medical and an interveiw so I'm little worried that i wouldn't make it on time for this year's selection. If i think about
it, i don't think there is any reason why i wouldn't get a waiver, since i was fairly young when i came here. Do you guys know how long
this background check take and do you think i would be able to get everything done on time?


----------



## RCDtpr

Nobody can really answer that question as everyone's case is different.


----------



## Kenyan

i did a search on here, and the armedforces.ca site. and didnt want to make a new thread.

But just to be on the safe side, when they ( the dnd, backcheck form) say close relatives, is that the same as immediate family? Just want to clarify so they dont get mad if I didnt mention my uncles and aunts living in usa, and holland.

But seriously 5 references, 5 years each? thats only going to be family friends. o well, ill get them 5.


----------



## Lil_T

Kenyan said:
			
		

> i did a search on here, and the armedforces.ca site. and didnt want to make a new thread.
> 
> But just to be on the safe side, when they ( the dnd, backcheck form) say close relatives, is that the same as immediate family? Just want to clarify so they dont get mad if I didnt mention my uncles and aunts living in usa, and holland.
> 
> But seriously 5 references, 5 years each? thats only going to be family friends. o well, ill get them 5.



they asked me if any of my family members were in another country.  In this kind of case - the more information you can provide, the better IMO.


----------



## Kenyan

yeah, thats what i was thinking. but i have 8 aunt, and uncles in holland, one uncle in usa, 3 uncles in south africa. gets a little riduclous. one of them used to be a chauffer for the prime minister of holland. grr, will call recruiter tomorrow. am going in person to the kelowna armoury next wednesday, but want all my paperwork done when i meet him, so i can just fill in trades i want, and thats it.

I'm thinking combat engineer, get to build, and demolish stuff. and sig ops, radios and stuff. im interested in medic, but not sure I could handle it :S

**sorry for the mini hijack**


----------



## George Wallace

IMMEDIATE FAMILY (IF SINGLE) means:

Mother;
Father;
Brothers; and
Sisters.

IMMEDIATE FAMILY (IF MARRIED) means:

Mother;
Father;
Brothers; 
Sisters;
Spouse;
Spouse's Mother;
Spouse's Father;
Spouse's Brothers; and
Spouse's Sisters.


All other RELATIVES who are not  immediate family are:

Grand Parents;
Uncles;
Aunts; and 
Cousins.

(If married, then those of your spouse as well.)

Clear?


----------



## psychedelics07

Niteshade said:
			
		

> Can anyone confirm that the references are called last (AFTER the medical is cleared)?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Nites



My best friend is also in the application process, and although he has only written the CFAT, his references were contacted.  He has NOT had his medical or interview yet.
I have confirmed this with him before posting.


----------



## DND1980

I am still waiting for my background check to come through. It has been a month already. The problem now is that the recruiting officer from my unit told me that he received an email saying that the unit has reached its enrollment limit so I cannot be enrolled right now. How long before I can be enrolled? He mentioned something about asking brigade for overages?


----------



## geo

You could be enrolled as early as next week... or next month... or next year.

Reserve units have establishments of XXX number of troops -  they have a payroll budget of XXX XXX $CA based on that same number of troops.  Doesn't make sense to enroll beyond those numbers if the salary isn't in place - does it.

However, as oft happens, while one unit is jammed full of troops, another one, at the other end of the brigade's territory is.... understrengthed & unable to use up that same payroll envelope... so the Brigade may strip positions & payroll from those other units.... they may, they might.... but there are no guarantees that they will.

Good luck - just keep in touch with the unit - continue to show your interest & enthusiasm


----------



## smittymed

Do all medicals go to ottawa or if you clear by %100 does it speed up the proccess?


----------



## kincanucks

smittymed said:
			
		

> Do all medicals go to ottawa or if you clear by %100 does it speed up the proccess?



All recruiting medicals have to be reviewed by the recruiting medical folks in Ottawa.  There was/is a policy that if you are cleared (no outstanding issues) by the CFRC/D medical staff then your process continues while your medical is being reviewed however, if the medical authority disagrees with the CFRC/D med staff then your process stops until you are cleared.

Try clicking the spell check button before you post next time.


----------



## Vovka

My references were called and backcheck was done already, and my medical is not for another week and a half. 

I think they do those whenever they have time.


----------



## smittymed

I finished my Interview and medicals yesterday. Then first thing today I heard from all my references that they have been contacted. I aced my medical scored great on the CFAT and had a great interview. only a matter of time now i hope. I have been going through CFRC Halifax and they seem to be on the ball.


----------



## Nikonian

I think I am dealing with a very flexible and helpful CFRC! I submitted my application approx. Mid-February, and I've already completed my CFAT and interview. An officer there told me I could be sworn in by the end of March! I'm not going to keep my hopes up, but I am very happy to hear that they are on top of things.
None of my references have been contacted just yet. They told me today that the backcheck has not been started yet. Oh well, I talk to my references on a regular basis, so I will know as soon as soon as they are interviewed.

As for the CFAT, all I can do is regurgitate the advice that was given to me. Get as much sleep as you can, eat a good breakfast (Carbs! Yummy!). And most important, RELAX!


----------



## SoldierInTheMaking

So I have everything completed that was needed I am just awaiting my medical to get cleared and I think my back check. The last time I talked to the recruiter was Feb 19 when I brought him some medical forms that needed to be sent away and reviewed, he said it could take up to 2-3 weeks it has only been one week but I'd like to know if my back check was cleared so would it be alright if I contacted them and asked? or should I just wait until I talk to them about my medical being cleared?


----------



## Goibniu

Ok well I've been keeping good contact with most of my references i listed on my application. One of them was contacted the other day but was not home. He called them back today and they said they already have enough information but would keep him on record incase they need more. So my question is do they normally only use only some of the contacts


----------



## Lil_T

They don't always call everyone.  As far as I know, 4 of my 5 references were contacted.


----------



## NomadWarriorSoul

I did a search looking for answers (99% of the time I find what I need...) but couldn't find details on the finer points of what I need to know.

My credit isn't good.  It's not terrible.. no bankruptcies or anything that catastrophic, but employment has been a huge problem for me the past few years and there are bill payments missed all over the place.  I've cleaned most of the mess up, but I need to know how bad 'bad' is... not working at the moment and things are only getting worse the longer I wait.  I like referring to myself as a casualty of the east coast economy when I'm feeling dark humour kicking in.

I'm having problems with letters of reference because I've moved around most of my life, but I think it's something I can overcome.

Who is called exactly?  Do they call your recent employers whether you list them for contact or not?  What about places you've lived?  If two of my previous landlords are called it won't be pretty... if I'd been able to afford the court battle I should have sued them both for delinquency.  Instead I moved away.

I guess I just feel the past year and a half or so has been one of my lower points in my life (I'm 36) and I'm wondering how much it's going to hold me back.  I don't feel I have the luxury of waiting another couple years hoping for better days with the economy the way it is right now, plus my age.  

Can anyone give me more detail on the guidelines that I'll be judged on?  Right now this is the biggest issue I think I'm facing in terms of being given a job offer.  I'm in excellent shape, non smoker.. only owning a car two years my whole life is actually turning out to be a blessing.  I have no criminal record at all, absolutely clean driver abstract.. just not the kind of guy a bank would be ecstatic to have walk in their office and ask for a loan.


----------



## Lil_T

dammit - I had a whole long thing typed out and it got moved.

anyway - here it is again.

Speaking from personal experience, as long as you are doing something to rectify your financial situation, that should be considered a positive thing.

As far as references, I used friends and people I used to work with.  They do ask for your employment history for the last 5 years as well as your employers' contact information.  I haven't ever heard of former land lords being contacted unless they were used as a reference.

You will be judged on your CFAT, medical, interview, ERC (enhanced reliability check) as well as your references.

Good luck.


----------



## NomadWarriorSoul

Thanks, and thanks to whomever moved my post to an applicable thread.  I guess I shouldn't have used "background check" or whatever for a search phrase...

I'm probably overanalyzing the whole thing.  I'm not worried about the interview, or my background(very tame and boring non story there), or what my references will say.  

Previous employers.. well they're not going to be giving horror stories, but they're my previous employers instead of my current one for various reasons, mostly attendance while I sorted out a medical issue (suffered low blood pressure, since then aggressively dealt with and is no longer an issue), plus a lot of it is call centers that have policies not to give references.  It's more about tripping over something I could have prevented by knowing about it in advance.


----------



## jmbest

Did a search for this but nothing came up.. A new worry popped into my head recently before I start the application process. I was born and raised in Canada but my mother is a U.S. citizen living in the U.S. and she has a criminal record there. How, if at all, will this affect my possible application? Anyone have a similar situation by any chance? I can't imagine it would have an impact on it, but you never know.. Thanks for any info!


----------



## George Wallace

That may be a concern; but the main concern is DO YOU have a criminal record, and what are the charges.  It will depend on the 'degree' of the crime, what affect it will have on your application.


----------



## jmbest

I have no criminal record. 

The charges for her are theft.


----------



## SoldierInTheMaking

jmbest said:
			
		

> I have no criminal record.
> 
> The charges for her are theft.



Then you should be fine..I would think.


----------



## Lil_T

TheDeepestGray said:
			
		

> Then you should be fine..I would think.



That's going to depend on what kind of security clearances her MOC requires.  They do ask for information on your immediate family and mother would qualify for that.  I'm just not sure how her criminal record would affect that.


----------



## SoldierInTheMaking

Yea you got a point, I guess she will just have to wait and see what happens....it might affect it, it might not...only time will tell.


----------



## aparchma

Hello everybody,

I recently submitted my application online for Logistics (DEO) and need to bring my references and a few other things into my local recruiting centre. My question is this: do all of my references need to have known me for at least 5 years (as per the instructions attached to the reference sheet .pdf file) _or_ is only one of the references required to have known me for at least 5 years (as per the confirmation e-mail I received after submitting my application)? If it only requires one reference to have known me for at least 5 years, then I will have quite a different set of references versus if all of them are required to have known me for 5+ years. 

Thank you for any input you are able to give!

- Alaina


----------



## jerrycan

I believe they all have to know you for a minimum of 5 years. I'm not 100% sure, but I would call the RC just to make sure before you spend all this time filling out the forms.


----------



## Ibbotson84

Hey guys i hope i am posting this in the right forum.....i recently started my application process and just on May12th i wrote my aptitude test...and was eligible for all the trades i chose (infantry,artillery,) after we wrote the test they called us into the office to give us our results ...i was the last person to get called in and they then told me i qualified for my trades and i picked infantry...they then went on to ask me about my criminal record and credit history..i do have a criminal record but have not had a carge in 5 years now...and i also have debts on my credit report to which are in the process of being removed..now everyone else that was there was schedualed for their medicals but i was not he just told me that if i did not hear from them in a month to give them a call...what does this mean?....and what do you think my chances are and what would the worst case scenario be for me?...does it mean my backcheck is just taking longer than th other candidates did? thanx in advance


----------



## Otis

Ibbotson84 said:
			
		

> Hey guys i hope i am posting this in the right forum.....i recently started my application process and just on May12th i wrote my aptitude test...and was eligible for all the trades i chose (infantry,artillery,) after we wrote the test they called us into the office to give us our results ...i was the last person to get called in and they then told me i qualified for my trades and i picked infantry...they then went on to ask me about my criminal record and credit history..i do have a criminal record but have not had a carge in 5 years now...and i also have debts on my credit report to which are in the process of being removed..now everyone else that was there was schedualed for their medicals but i was not he just told me that if i did not hear from them in a month to give them a call...what does this mean?....and what do you think my chances are and what would the worst case scenario be for me?...does it mean my backcheck is just taking longer than th other candidates did? thanx in advance



Not knowing your exact situation or where you are currently doing your processing, I can only guess, but I suspect that your CFRC is attempting to manage expectations and avoid getting your hopes up before they get all the info ... they are PROB. waiting until the results of your criminal record check before figuring out whether or not they can/should continue your processing... it's also dependant if you're joining full time or Reserves as there are no more available Army Reserve BMQ's for this summer, so there's no point in using resources performing a Medical that won't actually be required for (possibly) months ... but again, I am guessing ...


----------



## Ibbotson84

Yes i am joining Reg-Force....the recruiter told me after my aptitude to choose one of the three choices and i chose Infantry he said i would get it..as there are alot of combat arms positions especially infantry avaiable..so i dunno i am just very anxious to get this going and being lft with no real answer just wondering is terrible..what would the worst case scenario be do u think?


----------



## Ibbotson84

like i dont have alot of charges i have 2 young offenders theft,mischef
and for adult i have possesion of pot, assault and a failure to appear i belive....and have been free of the judicial system for 5 years now...the recruiter also said something about that policy changing?


----------



## Otis

Ibbotson84 said:
			
		

> Yes i am joining Reg-Force....the recruiter told me after my aptitude to choose one of the three choices and i chose Infantry he said i would get it..as there are alot of combat arms positions especially infantry avaiable..so i dunno i am just very anxious to get this going and being lft with no real answer just wondering is terrible..what would the worst case scenario be do u think?



WORST case scenario? You don't get a job in the CF. I don't suspect that to happen PURELY based on your backcheck, but you never know. 

As for the policy you're talking about, the CF used to use set "Spent Periods" after a conviction before you could join. This policy is currently in the process of being recinded but I don't yet know if it's being uniformly applied accross the country.


----------



## runningnowhere

Hey there, 

I'm putting in an application for the Army Reserve School Co-Op program for next year and I have a question about one part of the application. I'm thinking maybe you guys can add some insight. 

In the application they are asking for 5 personal/professional/educational references (in total, not each). The application states:

_Any adult, who is not immediate family or a relative, can act as a reference. Your references must have known you for at least 5 continuous years of coverage (or to age 16, whichever comes first)._

I'm not entirely clear by the "or to age 16" part. I ask because I do have a few references who I can list who I have known for 5+ years, but only two or three. So, does that mean I can list a teacher who I have known for 4 straight years, but they have known me since before I was 16 (I'm 17 now). 

Hopefully someone can help me out.  :camo:


----------



## Biohazardxj

Yes.  You can use your teacher, family doctor, priest, best friends mom, or the milk man.  As long as they have know you for 5 continuous or up to the age of 16.    So if your present family doctor has only know since you were 13 that is fine.


----------



## martr

It means that if you're 17, then you can put down someone who's known you only for 1 year (from when you turned 16), instead of 5 years.

Same for the security clearance papers, you only need to go back to when you were 16. So instead of putting down addresses for the last 5 years, you only need to put down addresses from the day you turned 16.

Martin


----------



## runningnowhere

martr said:
			
		

> It means that if you're 17, then you can put down someone who's known you only for 1 year (from when you turned 16), instead of 5 years.
> 
> Same for the security clearance papers, you only need to go back to when you were 16. So instead of putting down addresses for the last 5 years, you only need to put down addresses from the day you turned 16.
> 
> Martin



Mmhmm, that's was I had thought. Just wanted to ensure I wasn't risking rejecting the application by filling something wrong... First impressions, you know


----------



## Otis

martr said:
			
		

> It means that if you're 17, then you can put down someone who's known you only for 1 year (from when you turned 16), instead of 5 years.
> 
> Same for the security clearance papers, you only need to go back to when you were 16. So instead of putting down addresses for the last 5 years, you only need to put down addresses from the day you turned 16.
> 
> Martin



Sorry Martin, you are right about the references, incorrect about the addresses.

From a CF Recruiter: 

We require references that are - 18+ , unrelated and have known you five years. If you are a younger applicant, we will allow people that have known for for less than five years if nessesary, but we prefer them to be trustworthy people (teachers, lawyers, police officers, priests etc) ... this does not exclude people that have known you longer, nor does it exclude people who have known you prior to the age of 16 (so YES, if someone's known you since you were 14, they can be used)

With Regard To the addresses though, we DO require five years. You must have lived somewhere and you have to tell us where. As I have said in this forum before, we can and DO check criminal records prior to age 16, so we need to have addresses for five years back minimum (more if there are extenuating circumstances, like you still have immediate relatives living outside of Canada)

If you have any more questions, I recommend you ask your local CFRC. You can call the toll free number at 1-800-856-8488

Good Luck!

Otis


----------



## martr

I re-read the forms, it seems it's changed since back in the days!
You are correct, 5 years of addresses.


I didn't mean you only need to list those after 16. Of course it's better if someone has known you for more time.


----------



## mellian

Five 5+ years references can be a pain when majority of those that can vouch for your character are anti-military or/and anti-war, and the rest reluctant. It is like suggesting have to be associated with people that are supportive for a period of time. 

It would also mean, in my case, if enlisted, will mean I will have to be in the closet essentially.   

"What do you do for a living?"

"Umm, work for the government."

"Oh? Doing what?"

"...analyst. Hey, whats over there?"


----------



## KodyN202

I have sent my application in 2 days ago and am awaiting a reply for my tests to be scheduled. For one of my reference spots my Aunt who was a SGT in the air force insisted that I put her down for one of my references. So my question is will they accept this? I understand that it says no family, but I figured since she would know more about it then me, that it would be fine? Thanks in advance. Kody


----------



## George Wallace

Have another Reference ready, should they tell you that she is not eligible as a Reference.  Be prepared.


----------



## Miko

Have another Reference ready like GW said.
For future reference, "Any adult, who is not immediate family or a relative, can act as a reference." 
This is found on Part 3 "Back Check" of the Source Documentation for the Application to the CF, the recruiter should have given you.


----------



## josh54243

If your aunt isn't in the same household, I dont think she would be considered immediate family.


----------



## PMedMoe

JohnTBay said:
			
		

> If your aunt isn't in the same household, I dont think she would be considered immediate family.



But she is a relative.  I like the wording: "Any adult who is not immediate family or a relative."  Immediate family aren't relatives?   ???


----------



## josh54243

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> But she is a relative.  I like the wording: "Any adult who is not immediate family or a relative."  Immediate family aren't relatives?   ???



Oops, didn't see the relative part. I should read things more carefully!


----------



## PMedMoe

The point I was trying to make is that immediate family *are* relatives.  So why the redundancy?


----------



## Otis

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> The point I was trying to make is that immediate family *are* relatives.  So why the redundancy?



The redundancy is because not everyone's first language is English.

Someone asked me the other day if their spouse was "immediate family". Their reasoning was that their spouse wasn't a blood relative ... it makes sense in a way if you think about it. So, for the purposes of clarity, it doesn't cost anything to write a slightly longer sentence on the form.


----------



## PMedMoe

Understood.  I guess it also helps those who are intellectually challenged.


----------



## traviss-g

My friend had his grandfather as a reference and the recruiter said it was fine that they would just use one of his other references.


----------



## George Wallace

traviss-g said:
			
		

> My friend had his grandfather as a reference and the recruiter said it was fine that they would just use one of his other references.



 :

First off, the Recruiter should know better, and not have said that, or you have made up a story or quoted a rumour.

Second:  It is quite clear who you can and can not use as a Reference, in "Black and White" on the BackCheck forms.  Remember, it is BackCheck who checks the References, not the Recruiter.

Third:  When it comes time for a Security Clearance, DPM Secur 2 is very strict as to who is listed as a Reference, and will reject an application if it is not completed correctly.


----------



## traviss-g

Well I was present when it happened so I am sure it was not a rumor. The recruiter was the one who pointed it out when he went through our applications and said "who's this" and my buddy said "my grandfather, should I change it, I can just use Travis (me)" the recruiter responded with "no, it is ok we will just use one of the others." 

It was only 8-9 months ago so I don't think my memory is that bad, but it may be. Any way I guess it is not supposed to happen so if you want to delete my previous post (and maybe this one with the story in it) please do, so other people do not read it and get the wrong idea. Sorry for the confusion!

Thanks,
Travis


----------



## KodyN202

Well they won't accept it (Figured that anyways). And that my recruiter can't fill the info in for me so now I am another week behind  :'(. I called in a couple days ago to find out how my application was progressing and it turned out that he had my app. in his hands  . Then he went on the tell me he was going to have to send it back to me ( I live about 2 hours away from any CFRC) because of that little problem. I asked if I could just give him the info and potentially save myself a week of doing this again but he said that he is not allowed to do that. So now I am still waiting to get it in the mail and then send it back and blah blah blah....


----------



## ouch

Are brother-in-law, sister-in-law considered relatives?
They are 'relatives' by marriage, so does that count them out as a reference?

Would 'relatives' are defined by blood?


----------



## Otis

ouch said:
			
		

> Are brother-in-law, sister-in-law considered relatives?
> They are 'relatives' by marriage, so does that count them out as a reference?
> 
> Would 'relatives' are defined by blood?



In-laws are considered relatives if they are actually married. Common-law relatives are not considered relatives for the purposes of References ... so says FDO (I went and asked him and stole his answer)

Otis


----------



## George Wallace

ouch said:
			
		

> Are brother-in-law, sister-in-law considered relatives?
> They are 'relatives' by marriage, so does that count them out as a reference?
> 
> Would 'relatives' are defined by blood?



What Otis is saying is:  

1.  If you are married, then In-laws are considered relatives (If you want to use your "relatives are defined by blood" then they are--they are blood relatives of your spouse.)

2.  If you are Common Law, then they are not considered relatives, but acquaintances........until such time as you get married.  Then they fall under point 1.


----------



## FDO

Let me clarify. If you want to use your in-laws as references you can. What we look for are "professionals". IE Doctors, Lawyers (I know), Religious leaders, Engineers, Teachers, Professors, etc. This is because of the status they hold in society. Former employers or co-workers are also good as they have probably seen you at your best and worst. We don't like to use family because there is a perceived view that they will give a glowing reference. In-laws, you hope, will give you the same glowing reference. 

Hope this clears it up a bit.


----------



## Pre-Recruit

This question is for the 2009 year only.
This question is for the Regular Forces only.
This question is for a Non-Commissioned Member(NCM) application.
This question is for the Infantry trade only. (If relevant)


-Have used search.
-Have contacted recruiters.



If extenuating circumstances may warrant the over looking of this; brief background information follows:

-Am not lazy or unmotivated to find people.
-Family/friends are anti-war.
-Transferred to many schools and have been out for years.
-Transferred jobs often.
-Never been out of the country. (Except for two day trips into the USA in childhood.)
-Do not even own a passport.
-Never been on employment insurance or government debt.
-Do not have a criminal record or charged with anything.
-Been in the care of child services as a youth.
-Employed and up-to-date tax history.
-Own no debt, nor applied for loans.
-High school education.
-Canadian born citizen, Anglo-Saxon ancestry.
-24 years old, fit, male, b@stard child. (literal)

Actual useful information from recruit personal and pre-recruit/recruit or Members with similar circumstances will be highly valued and extremely appreciated. Thank you in advance.


Please consider all military abbreviations to be unknown.
Will be checking for replies/questions each day.


----------



## Pusser

As a high school graduate with no criminal record you should have no trouble at all signing up to be an NCM in the infantry.  Most of the things you have mentioned (including where or with whom you lived as a child or that your parents weren't married) are completely irrelevant.  Never been out of North America?  We can fix that for you!  Good luck.


----------



## the_girlfirend

We went through the process this year, and they said we absolutely needed all the references... we had to put family, friends and even neighbors, the only exception they said they made was for very young applicants who usually don't have 5-10 years old references. The only person who can help you is the recruiter, and I doubt they will turn you down for that... they will help you find a solution.

Good luck


----------



## Michael OLeary

Pre-Recruit said:
			
		

> This question is for the 2009 year only.
> This question is for the Regular Forces only.
> This question is for a Non-Commissioned Member(NCM) application.
> This question is for the Infantry trade only. (If relevant)



Since it has been noted in other threads that there will be no more intake of Reg F infantry NCM in 2009 (until April 2010 apparently), you can use the next eight months to work on identifying and cultivating suitable references.


----------



## Otis

Pre-Recruit said:
			
		

> -Am not lazy or unmotivated to find people.
> -Family/friends are anti-war.
> -Transferred to many schools and have been out for years.
> -Transferred jobs often.
> -Never been out of the country. (Except for two day trips into the USA in childhood.)
> -Do not even own a passport.
> -Never been on employment insurance or government debt.
> -Do not have a criminal record or charged with anything.
> -Been in the care of child services as a youth.
> -Employed and up-to-date tax history.
> -Own no debt, nor applied for loans.
> -High school education.
> -Canadian born citizen, Anglo-Saxon ancestry.
> -24 years old, fit, male, b@stard child. (literal)
> 
> Actual useful information from recruit personal and pre-recruit/recruit or Members with similar circumstances will be highly valued and extremely appreciated. Thank you in advance.
> 
> 
> Please consider all military abbreviations to be unknown.
> Will be checking for replies/questions each day.



You will not get in to the Forces without references. We need SOMEONE to act as a character reference for you. We can't do anything about your friends being anti-war, but if they won't act as character references for you, you're going to have to find SOMEONE who will. We recommend professionals (Doctor, Lawyer, Priest, Police officer, Teacher, Professor etc.) You cannot use family as references anyway.

You WILL also need to prove citizenship, Age and Education (a passport is not required as long as you have a Canadian Birth Certificate and some photo ID, but you will need transcripts from whatever school board(s) you went to.

Infantry is closed for this year. You will not get in in 2009 as Infantry. There IS a possibility (VERY REMOTE) of them opening up the trade for intake in early 2010, but more likely it will not open until after April 2010, and you will be in competition with everyone else who decided to wait it out until Infantry opens. 

Pusser IS correct about one thing though ... we do not care about the circumstances of your birth with regard to your parents marital situation.

Good luck, whatever you decide to do!

Otis


----------



## Pre-Recruit

*Original Poster*

Would any current Forces recruiter care to weigh in? I would be most grateful.



To reiterate, I do not have any references; this is not for a lack of information of who is a possible candidate, but that there are simply none for me, nor is it a matter of waiting a year(s) for one. The question is straight forward and oblivious to these points and stands regardless: is there a way to proceed.

My stated information is mainly secondary, for the purpose of someone who does background checks(etc.) for applicants...
ie. if all these are accurate, would it (somehow) warrant bypassing the need for personal references.


----------



## aesop081

Pre-Recruit said:
			
		

> *Original Poster*
> 
> Would any current Forces recruiter care to weigh in? I would be most grateful.



"Otis", who posted just before you, is in fact a current CF recruiter. He has answered your question in plenty of detail.



> would it (somehow) warrant bypassing the need for personal references.



The answer was "NO".


----------



## kratz

A Recuriter did provide the correct answer to your post.

Milnet.ca (and all sister sites) are privately owned and not affiliated with DND or the CF. No one should take any comments posted on a public site as official policy.


----------



## BlueOne

> -Family/friends are anti-war.



Is it me or it sound like your friends or family just woulnt reference you because there may be a good reason?

I mean, will you hold back information on your application? This would lead to a fraudulent recruting.

My friends and family arnt war-friendly too and they gave me good references because they know that this is what I want and that I will serve at my best, as I always did in every other projects I had in my life.


----------



## Vimy_gunner

To make a long story, short.  I've only lived in one location for the five year requirement that is needed to write as a reference and that was because I moved back to the same place twice in a span of eleven years.  I'm from Canmore, busy tourist town where residents staying longer than a couple years is rare and I have just two friends that I've remained in contact with.  My employment has been with my dads company since 2003 and other than a couple instances of working in a hotel for a few months, I have no other employment references during this time.   My recruiter said I couldn't write down my employment history as a reference since it's family.  

So I'm stuck with two references (personal) and from good friends who are obviously going to paint a positive picture for me.  One of those friends is actually my brothers friend who I went mtn biking with from time to time, but didn't hang out a lot.  I've just known him a while.  The other friend I spent a lot of time mtn biking and snowboarding with, but just barely have known him for five years.  Three of which I was actually here in Lethbridge while he's back in Canmore.

I feel like I'm heading upstream without a paddle.    Any other friends I have are from College, which began in Sept. 2008.    

How important are these references?  Does anyone else have a similar story where their references for work and personal are inadequate for what the CF is asking for, but still were accepted.

Maybe a recruiter can shed some light on this and I intend on speaking to my local reserve recruiter, but hoping to prepare myself to knowledge as to what I should expect.

Thank-you


----------



## helpup

Fill in what you can, some of your refferances can be people who you may not think know you that well.  But as long as you ask them most dont mind being a refferance.  I have personally done it for a few soldiers who I have known or who worked for me.  The questions asked about them are pretty standard and anyone who has a cursurary knowledge of you will have no trouble answering them.  

In all the times I have been used as a referance I have been interviewed only a fraction of the time.


----------



## George Wallace

References

Yet another topic that has been covered before.

It clearly states on the forms whom you can use as a Reference.  Do you have to have References that you know today and for the past three to five years?  No.  You can use any Reference who has know you for the fixed period of time, from any stage of your life.  It could be a minister who taught you Sunday School ten years ago.  It could be a Teacher who taught you through your Public School years.  As long as you have a Reference who has known you for the requested amount of time.

Yes.  References are important, and you must have them.


----------



## Vimy_gunner

Actually, on the application form in front of my eyes, it says "references must have known you for at least the previous five (continuous) years."  According to this, it can't be someone who knew me from say grade three to grade eight (unless I'm currently in grade nine) or a minister back in Sunday school.

Unless the above statement is a "clerical" mistake by the individual who put the print on the references form.  About the only person that has known me under this category would be my doctor.  

I'll talk to my local recruiter and see if I can actually delve back in time because I do have some good references then.  

Thanks for the replies  G.W. and helpup!


----------



## helpup

Vimy_gunner said:
			
		

> Actually, on the application form in front of my eyes, it says "references must have known you for at least the previous five (continuous) years."  According to this, it can't be someone who knew me from say grade three to grade eight (unless I'm currently in grade nine) or a minister back in Sunday school.
> 
> Unless the above statement is a "clerical" mistake by the individual who put the print on the references form.  About the only person that has known me under this category would be my doctor.
> 
> I'll talk to my local recruiter and see if I can actually delve back in time because I do have some good references then.
> 
> Thanks for the replies  G.W. and helpup!



It is not a clerical error and those forms do slowly change with the times.  I stand by my post.  Further I just went through another Security level clearance and now had to deal with trying to drag up my deceased father in laws address.  I didnt have it nor did my wife.  ergo I put in the comments box that fact and it got sent back to me as hey dummy fill it out.  I replied ( through the MP's ) that I dont have it, my wife does not have it and here is what we have for his burial plot........ That one did the trick and they ok'ed it.

George did you a favour and located your thread in it's proper forum.  Read through this one if you have any further questions ( before asking more )  Also he was suggesting that next time you use the Search button to help find answers before starting a "new " thread that will wind up getting moved or have people tell you to use the search button.


----------



## Vimy_gunner

Should clear up that there are still Reserve BMQ's going on for the summer.  Unless my local recruiter is feeding me bs, which I doubt.  In his words, "We'll go through your application, test your CFAT and send you to Calgary for your medical and you will be finished the process in time for training in the Spring.  And hopefully, you'll be offered a job." 

Unless of-course there is a Spring and Summer BMQ?, still are Reserve spots open, unless the Master Bombardier was giving me a sense of false hope, which I highly doubt!

Going to be taking my CFAT in a week and the PT test right after that.  Probably depends on the need for Reserve soldiers in different elements of the forces.  Field Gunner is at a shortage from my understanding.  

I think the level of worry has more to do with what your applying for, instead of just a mandatory determination across the board.  High demand to fill Artillery roles, less strict procedure.  Low demand for Infantry, more strict guidelines for accepting recruits.   Makes logical sense anyways.  I'm not an expert on the status of Artillery and Infantry; just what I heard.


----------



## Apollo55

I wasn't able to find anything about this when I searched, and for some reason I couldn't get a hold of anyone at the recruiting center today ???.

I'm just wondering about the 5 references for the DND background check. First, is it mandatory to have all 5 references, or would 4 be alright? It seems that a lot of people have trouble finding 5 people they have known for 5 continuous years.

And second, can you use any family members? Maybe people who have married into the family, such as aunts or uncles?

Thanks


----------



## Brie21

i am 99 % sure i read somewhere on one of the sheets that it cant be family members. if its says to have 5 references its probably a good idea to get 5. maybe try a family friend or a teacher or even a parent of a friend if you cant get that last reference

hope i helped a bit


----------



## camelia

i'm so interesting to work in your office but as you know i thing i'm not a canadian citizen i'm algerian is it possbile for me to work in the army reserves evan get job vacancie ? if it's not possible please inform me and if there is conditions ( how getting the canadian citizen ) and work in your office please give what are the steps that i must follow to get it thank you !


----------



## FDO

First: YES 5. The number is 5, thou shalt not stop at 4 nor carry on to 6. Have more ready in case they don't get an answer from one or more of them. You can't tell me that you are at least 16 years old and NO ONE outside your family has known you for 5 years. 

Second: 3 basic requirments to belong to the CF, Canadian Citzen, at least 17 (16 for Reserve) and have at least a grade 10 (or other Provincial equivilant) You can apply for a civilian position if they have any but you must pass several tests and I'm pretty sure English and/or French is part of it.


----------



## kolkol

I have a question, and to start of, yes, I have called the recruiters, and the three different answers I received were all different. 

It says on the application that you must list 5 references who you've known continuously for at least 5 years, further that they should be a mix of work, educational, and personal references. Now, being only 21, my work references are only known to me for 3 years. Will that cause problems? I've heard it will, one said it wouldn't, other said the 5 year thing is hooey. I wanna get this right so I don't delay my application, so thanks for you input.


----------



## Lando

In my experience 5 Years is what they want, They'll say one thing and want another.
I used all Personal but all 5 knew me for 10+ Years.


----------



## bl00dwolf

Hi I'm gathering references and Ive finally managed to get 5 that Ive known for at least 5 years. the thing is they are all personal references. none of them have really worked with me and their all friends. they do know that I'm a trustworthy and hard working person but they have no examples of my hard work if they were asked. Ive moved around alot and these are really the only people i can trust to be references. would it still be possible to make it in with them as references?


----------



## BorderMedic

Hello everyone, just a little update and question, CFAT complete, Medical is awaiting approval, and recruiter has told me that they are just awaiting my file to come back from a criminal background check and then they will be scheduling an interview. So with all that I am kinda left wondering when do they do the reference calls? I was under the impression that they called your references before they sent your file away for security checks?

Just curious.


----------



## Would_be_Artillery

Hello,

I am a 19 year old University student who had failed to be selected for ROTP on my first applicaton. I am trying again this year but the one thing that has me bent over shape is my references. Last year I gave 5 teachers as my references(I have not known them for 5 continous year obviously) I really don't know that many non-family individuals, especially due to constant moving, that I have known since I was 14 that know me well enough to provide an evaluation of my character for the past 5 years. Maybe that is why I didn't get selected last year? Are the references very important to an application? If so what can I possibly do? I reached the interview stage last year with teacher references so is it possible to ask the recruiters if they can use the information my references provided last year?


----------



## Kat Stevens

You need to take a few deep cleansing breaths.  Chances are there just wasn't enough room in the program.  Unless your refs put down "axe murderer" or something as their occupation, you're probably okay.  One sure way to find out is to ask your recruiter.


----------



## Nauticus

Would_be_Artillery said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> I am a 19 year old University student who had failed to be selected for ROTP on my first applicaton. I am trying again this year but the one thing that has me bent over shape is my references. Last year I gave 5 teachers as my references(I have not known them for 5 continous year obviously) I really don't know that many non-family individuals, especially due to constant moving, that I have known since I was 14 that know me well enough to provide an evaluation of my character for the past 5 years. Maybe that is why I didn't get selected last year? Are the references very important to an application? If so what can I possibly do? I reached the interview stage last year with teacher references so is it possible to ask the recruiters if they can use the information my references provided last year?


Yes, references are important. I would suggest you take the time to meet people who qualify as references for the CF, and confer with them for 5 years.


----------



## HavocSteve

I had 4 that I used and the last one I knew for 3 years. As long as you use the oldest to the newest, can't really go wrong since your situation about moving. Be honest and let the recruiter know. Mine didn't make a big deal about the issue, they just want people who know most things about you, and how you are as a person, willing to help out, ect.


----------



## Would_be_Artillery

Thanks for the advice guys, i'll talk to a recruiter in the morning but just to maybe put my mind at ease do you think using best-friends or girl-friends as references is a good idea? Thanks again.


----------



## Kat Stevens

No.  If you have the choice between Jenny from the block, or an educator, who do you think is the better choice?


----------



## Steel Badger

Note of caution with ( over) using educators on the EAF......  
Teachers work the same hours as the minions of CFRC, and are not always able to pick up the phone in order to do telephone ref checks....


----------



## Would_be_Artillery

Well guys, I have just gotten off the phone witha recruiter and he told that even 2-3 references are good. Even friends and girlfriends, I guess that part of my application is nothing to worry about.


----------



## McD

Would_be_Artillery said:
			
		

> Well guys, I have just gotten off the phone witha recruiter and he told that even 2-3 references are good. Even friends and girlfriends, I guess that part of my application is nothing to worry about.



Watch out for the girlfriend part, for real....Holy smokes, call me bitter/jaded/disgruntled whatever, that is serious courage there. You never know what they are up to.


----------



## Pusser

At your stage in life, I'm not sure friends and girlfriends are your best references ("like, you know, he' s like a real super keen dude, you know?").  Your best bet would be teachers, coaches, scout leaders, cadet officers, *parents* of friends.  All should be people who know you well and are prepared to comment on your character.  References need not be people who currently live near you or whom you've seen recently (although the girl who babysat you when you were five may not be a good choice if you haven't seen her since then).  Another word of advice on references is to check with them before you list them as a reference.


----------



## Hojung

I'm just few days away from sending my application to become a member of Canadian Forces.

I'm really excited and just loving every minute passing by and getting close to the d-day, but one information I received from a friend of mine, who is also trying to apply to forces, has got me all confused.

As I said I'm really excited, so stupidly I got blinded and didn't notice that my references have to have known me for 5years. So I was thinking of waiting until I found people who has known me for 5years, but my friend is telling me it doesn't have to be 5years and there are exceptions.

For example, if I've been working for 3years at one place, the reference from my manager is sufficient even if he's only known me for 3years.

Anyone have any information on this? Is it a MUST 5years or are there exceptions like my friend said?


----------



## steph_3007

The one exception that I can see would be depending on your age.

Your reference must know you for at least 5 consecutive years or since the age of 16.

So if you are 19 years old than you need only go back 3 years.


----------



## peppy

I'm in a similar position as others in this topic. Yes, I read the whole thing and searched for hours; I'm just gonna explain my situation.

I'm 19 years old, applying to the CF as a med tech for my first choice. I was born in Canada, but I moved to the States when I was 8 years old and stayed there (in various places) for 10 years. I moved back to Calgary last year. I'm a full Canadian citizen, etc.  

I simply do not have any references that fit the criteria. I've moved 4 times since I was 16 (the cutoff time period for references), and many times before that. I never got to know anyone well enough so that they would be able to comment on my character. I have some amazing employment references who would hire me back in a heartbeat, but I either haven't known them for long enough, or they are family members (not immediate, cousins and uncles). I've listed them anyway out of desperation.

I'm normally not one to toot my own horn, but my work ethic, mental focus, and physical prowess are outstanding. I've seen lazier, dumber, and much less fit people go off to BMQ. I was in the top 95% on a country-wide standardized test, I can do well over fourty pushups, 100 situps, and can run longer than most are willing to bike. I aim to be the hardest worker and best team member whenever I'm entrusted with responsibility. I know I can be an asset anywhere I'm employed, and I want to join the CF because I think my skills will be well used and appreciated. (wow, that last paragraph is insanely egocentric. I'm probably the most humble kid you'll meet, but that felt good  >)

Yet, my local recruiters won't even _consider_ my application because of this arbitrary bullshit. I know the CF makes an investment with each new recruit and wants to make sure it's a good investment, but can't a person vouch for his/herself? I'll write any test, do any exercise, be on any team to get in. But since I'm 19 years old, patience isn't a virtue I've fully cultivated yet  ;D

Many of my current friends have offered to fabricate stories for me, but I don't want a cheap lie to bite me in the ass later down the line. I'll keep digging up old contacts; who knows, I may find an old teacher who remembers my name.


----------



## aesop081

peppy said:
			
		

> arbitrary bullshit.



 :crybaby:



> I may find an old teacher who remembers my name.



A much better plan. Bitching about your situation and wishing that they would make an exception just for you ( you're so special after all.......) is not a plan of action. Sorry.


----------



## Nauticus

peppy said:
			
		

> I'm in a similar position as others in this topic. Yes, I read the whole thing and searched for hours; I'm just gonna explain my situation.
> 
> I'm 19 years old, applying to the CF as a med tech for my first choice. I was born in Canada, but I moved to the States when I was 8 years old and stayed there (in various places) for 10 years. I moved back to Calgary last year. I'm a full Canadian citizen, etc.
> 
> I simply do not have any references that fit the criteria. I've moved 4 times since I was 16 (the cutoff time period for references), and many times before that. I never got to know anyone well enough so that they would be able to comment on my character. I have some amazing employment references who would hire me back in a heartbeat, but I either haven't known them for long enough, or they are family members (not immediate, cousins and uncles). I've listed them anyway out of desperation.
> 
> I'm normally not one to toot my own horn, but my work ethic, mental focus, and physical prowess are outstanding. I've seen lazier, dumber, and much less fit people go off to BMQ. I was in the top 95% on a country-wide standardized test, I can do well over fourty pushups, 100 situps, and can run longer than most are willing to bike. I aim to be the hardest worker and best team member whenever I'm entrusted with responsibility. I know I can be an asset anywhere I'm employed, and I want to join the CF because I think my skills will be well used and appreciated. (wow, that last paragraph is insanely egocentric. I'm probably the most humble kid you'll meet, but that felt good  >)
> 
> Yet, my local recruiters won't even _consider_ my application because of this arbitrary bullshit. I know the CF makes an investment with each new recruit and wants to make sure it's a good investment, but can't a person vouch for his/herself? I'll write any test, do any exercise, be on any team to get in. But since I'm 19 years old, patience isn't a virtue I've fully cultivated yet  ;D
> 
> Many of my current friends have offered to fabricate stories for me, but I don't want a cheap lie to bite me in the *** later down the line. I'll keep digging up old contacts; who knows, I may find an old teacher who remembers my name.


The fact of the matter is, _you_ might think you're the greatest person to walk the Earth since Jesus, but nobody else does.


----------



## peppy

Of course not, but I'd like a chance to prove myself before being written off so hastily by the recruiters.


----------



## aesop081

peppy said:
			
		

> Of course not, but I'd like a chance to prove myself before being written off so hastily by the recruiters.



You meet the requirements, you get to move on.

You dont meet the requirements, you dont get to move on.

It applies to everyone, including you. What you would like is rather irrelevant.


----------



## peppy

One of my old co-workers falsified _every one_ of his references, barely passed the CFAT and physical tests, and was in BMQ within 3 months of applying. I could do that, but I'm trying to maintain some integrity throguh this process. I truly believe that the reference requirements are a little over the top.

I don't want to forum-spar with anyone either, just want to explain my situation for other applicants.


----------



## aesop081

peppy said:
			
		

> I truly believe that the reference requirements are a little over the top.



We (the CF) truly don't care. I'm sorry that you are in an unfortunate situation but that's just how it is.


----------



## EpicBeardedMan

peppy said:
			
		

> _I'm normally not one to toot my own horn_,* but my work ethic, mental focus, and physical prowess are outstanding. I've seen lazier, dumber, and much less fit people go off to BMQ. I was in the top 95% on a country-wide standardized test, I can do well over fourty pushups, 100 situps, and can run longer than most are willing to bike. I aim to be the hardest worker and best team member whenever I'm entrusted with responsibility. I know I can be an asset anywhere I'm employed, and I want to join the CF because I think my skills will be well used and appreciated.*



Probably not the best way to look for answers on what you're seeking.. There's a reason why they want people you've known for 5 years. They didn't just pick a random year and went "Yeah, 5 seems pretty good, it's halfway to 10". If the employer you're looking to work for asks you for something you don't just say "Uhh I don't have it, but I'm sure this'll do". Anyway, GL with the process.


----------



## George Wallace

peppy said:
			
		

> One of my old co-workers falsified _every one_ of his references, barely passed the CFAT and physical tests, and was in BMQ within 3 months of applying. I could do that, but I'm trying to maintain some integrity throguh this process. I truly believe that the reference requirements are a little over the top.
> 
> I don't want to forum-spar with anyone either, just want to explain my situation for other applicants.



Well, you either have made an assumed statement in that your co-worker falsified every one of his references, or your co-worker is in for a very big surprise in the near future when he HAS to produce those references.  As one who has to deal in these matters, I know that they do check these references and often will confirm a second or third time with you that they are still good and current.  If your co-worker has managed to fool them once, they won't be around long to fool them a second time.


----------



## owa

peppy said:
			
		

> I truly believe that the reference requirements are a little over the top.



I don't really want to argue too much, but I found them pretty fair.  Admittedly, I'm only 21 and don't have a long list of excellent references to choose from because I've really haven't had a ton of experience, but I had my current boss, some co-workers, a friend's mother, and even someone I went to school with (and was friends with).  I wish I had more professional based references, but I figured they just want to make sure that other people will vouch for my competence and integrity.  The people I put down could do that.  I'm sure the CF also expects that you're going to give them a list of people who you are pretty sure will say nice things about you, so I don't think they'll be getting too distraught over selections so long as they are people they can call and they know you quite well.

Not that I'd recommend bogging it down with buddies and bros, but I also don't think adding close friends is a bad thing either.

I should note, those co-workers were actually people I was friends with outside of the work place, so it really isn't too hard to get a list of people who can vouch for you and answer any questions the forces may have about you.


----------



## owa

Don't lie to them about anything, and just use the best references you can.  It is a big deal and it isn't a big deal.  If you simply do what they want, you'll be fine, but if you over think it you can really turn it into something bigger then it should.


----------



## PuckChaser

owa said:
			
		

> Don't lie to them about anything, and just use the best references you can.  It is a big deal and it isn't a big deal.  If you simply do what they want, you'll be fine, but if you over think it you can really turn it into something bigger then it should.



This is good advice. When you turn in your application, explain why you don't have references that go back that far. I would go so far as to try to contact a person you knew from a previous residence/city and even if you don't live there anymore, they can vouch for the time you were there.


----------



## readytogo

I had 3 references, one was a coworker for 2 years, the other was my work suprivisor for 2 years(same company) and the other was a family friend who had known me since I was just a wee one (10 years plus) I know they didnt contact my coworkers and never confirmed if they contacted the family friend and i got in.  Be honest with them because they will find out if you werent :nod:

RTG


----------



## dreamerboy

Hello,

I have a similar question. I have lived in Canada for the last 7.5 years, with some trips abroad. Before then, I was living in my country of birth. Does this disqualify me?

Thanks!


----------



## aesop081

dreamerboy said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> I have a similar question. I have lived in Canada for the last 7.5 years, with some trips abroad. Before then, I was living in my country of birth. Does this disqualify me?



Not automaticaly. It certainly makes the process longer, depending on the country you are refering to. You may or not be allowed into the CF but its not automaticaly decided on being born outside the country.


----------



## Silentstriker01

Kincanucks or anyone else who knows this question is for you. Out of my five references one is a former employer, one is a neighbor, and the rest are family friends that I have known my entire life. If you saw the relationship listed as family friend would that become a reference that you would discard or not follow up on? The recruiter told me I should find an educational reference. The form says the reference must have known you for five years OR until the age of 16. Can I use a former teacher who taught me math in grade 10 when I was 16? All of my teachers have known me for one year or less so I don't really have many options. My current math teacher told me he'd be a reference but he has only known me for one month. I would say that my personal references would all be great judges of my character and have known me for a very long time. They are very well respected two are doctors and one is a senior police officer. Are my references acceptable as they are?

I know your all probably getting sick of these questions but any advice is GREATLY appreciated!


----------



## Michael OLeary

Silentstriker01 said:
			
		

> Kincanucks or anyone else who knows this question is for you. Out of my five references one is a former employer, one is a neighbor, and the rest are family friends that I have known my entire life. If you saw the relationship listed as family friend would that become a reference that you would discard or not follow up on? The recruiter told me I should find an educational reference. The form says the reference must have known you for five years OR until the age of 16. Can I use a former teacher who taught me math in grade 10 when I was 16? All of my teachers have known me for one year or less so I don't really have many options. My current math teacher told me he'd be a reference but he has only known me for one month. I would say that my personal references would all be great judges of my character and have known me for a very long time. They are very well respected two are doctors and one is a senior police officer. Are my references acceptable as they are?
> 
> I know your all probably getting sick of these questions but any advice is GREATLY appreciated!



Silentstriker,

nearly every variant of a question on references has been discussed in the forum, and many are within this thread.  Please read through the thread to see if your question is answered, and to help you prepare for more specific questions to your CFRC. You may also see that other members are more current than kincanucks on recruiting issues, as he left that job some time ago.

You will also find that time spent using the search feature or Google site specific searches (add site:army.ca to the search parameters) will be worthwhile effort and helps to reduce repetitive posts.

Thank you

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## shiska

First off as this is my first post I'd like to formally introduce myself. Phil, 20, Psychology Student, ROTP hopeful .

With that out of the way here is my question. I'm currently filling out my reference forms and am confused by certain required information. Specifically the "Reference Position", "Company/School name" and "Location (city, region and/or store#)" sections. Do these all relate to the place of employment of that specific reference? My question stems from the confusion that these are for personal references and I don't understand if I'm supposed to put info about where they work or if those sections relate only to employment references.


----------



## 2010newbie

Yes, they relate to information regarding that reference, regardless of employment or personal.


----------



## Vimy_gunner

I may be the minority in this, but I was actually able to use my dad as a reference due to the fact that I've been working ONLY for his company over the last eight years. Perhaps I was lucky or perhaps the recruiter took a bit of common sense into account or maybe both.

Other than that my only personal reference was a friend of the family (my bro's friend) who is also my friend and I've known him for 15 years. We hung out mountain biking and went on vacations quite a bit over the years.  I moved around a lot (pretty much every couple years) so it's rather difficult to have known someone for five years or more, let alone them feeling comfortable enough and having enough knowledge to honestly answer questions about you,  lol. 
My recruiter understood that circumstances can occur which are out of your control and it's rather difficult for someone you knew 10 years ago to give you a reference when you haven't seen them in seven years.. The number of times I changed my address over the last five years likely provided a bit of proof about the moving around. I'm Christian, but when it comes to moving around, my family were/are like gypsies. 

It's much the same as a resume for any job. Good references can help, but if you don't have them and the rest of your application looks good, chances are you'll get the job. No doubt my volunteering, sports activities (fitness), health outlook (don't drink beer, not even pop) and other things helped the recruiter to overlook my lack of references. 

I also went ahead and made a photocopy of my athletic scholarships, which can show the character of a person just the same as an employment reference. Even though they don't ask for it, I'd volunteer that information as it can help. Technically, I was paid by the university to play soccer, received money for coming to training every day while others are studying or doing their part-time jobs. 
As far as my knowledge extends, it's far better to have one really great reference on your sheet than five people who can just generalize who you are and give some positives. If you've known five people for five years or more, how well are 2 or 3 of them going to really know you. Chances are they will have to bs a bit to give you a positive reference because everyone can put on a show at church for their minister or w/e, but how well does that person really know you. 

Just letting you know that your lack of references may not be the end of the world.  Good luck!


----------



## TheBeatles193

Okay, I was filling out the application papers, and they ask for some employment references. But I've never actually had a job. I do a lot of babysitting, but does that count? Should i write that down, or should I write that I haven't had any work experience. I also volunteer weekly at my Parish, should I write my boss's name? Please help. Thank you.  :-\


----------



## Loachman

Both would constitute work experience, even if one is unpaid, in my opinion.


----------



## zhanhui913

Hi, I just have a question on references.

Is it possible to put someone as a reference from another country?
 I just moved to Canada 2 years ago, and I stayed in the States for 4 years before moving here, and I spent my childhood in my birth-country before moving to the States.

I would like to put some of 2 of my teachers as my reference from the States,
and 1 very close childhood friend from my birth-country.
The other 2 would be my soccer coach and my boss from work here in Canada.

So far, from the thread, some say you must know each of your 5 references for 5 years, 
some say your total of 5 references must add up to at least 5 years.
Well, to this point I am not quite sure which is which. 
Can anyone clear this up for me please.
Thank you very much


----------



## PuckChaser

You can put anyone that you want as a reference. It'll take CSIS/BackCheck a while to track them down, so make sure their contact information is correct.


----------



## former_recruiter

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> You can put anyone that you want as a reference. It'll take CSIS/BackCheck a while to track them down, so make sure their contact information is correct.



CSIS background check to join the forces? I highly doubt that.


----------



## zhanhui913

Ok, but what about the total years?

1)Must it be a total of 5 years from your references?
                                        OR
Each of your  references must know you for at least 5 years?

By the way?
2)How many references must you provide?
Sometimes I see people say you must have 5 references. 
But maybe I got confused with that and the 5 years thing?

Let me know. 
Thanks


----------



## George Wallace

former_recruiter said:
			
		

> CSIS background check to join the forces? I highly doubt that.



Well.  Looking at the point being made by the OP that they have only been in Canada for two years, I wonder about their ability to even meet the three criteria to join...... Canadian Citizenship, Age and Education.  If they fail to meet any of those three criteria, then the References and Security or Background Checks are moot points.


----------



## Thompson_JM

former_recruiter said:
			
		

> CSIS background check to join the forces? I highly doubt that.



You're a "Former Recruiter" shouldn't you KNOW that?

You still haven't filled out your profile.... 

As far as I'm concerned your Street Cred is still Zero....


----------



## WeaponsLover

these are the 5 references i was thinking about using i would like to know if there good or not. 

1. former job supervisor ( i worked there for 9 months in 2009)
2. former personal trainer
3. former wrestling coach
4. Former high school football coach (provincial police officer)

for the fifth one i was wondering can i use a councelor? cuz i went through a social rehab program and my councelor know me super good but i wonder if its a good reference. if not ill use my current boss.

thx you


----------



## George Wallace

WeaponsLover said:
			
		

> these are the 5 references i was thinking about using i would like to know if there good or not.
> 
> 1. former job supervisor ( i worked there for 9 months in 2009)
> 2. former personal trainer
> 3. former wrestling coach
> 4. Former high school football coach (provincial police officer)
> 
> for the fifth one i was wondering can i use a councelor? cuz i went through a social rehab program and my councelor know me super good but i wonder if its a good reference. if not ill use my current boss.
> 
> thx you



You haven't read anything on this site HAVE YOU?

1.  This topic covers in detail whom and whom not you can use for a Reference.  It states clearly in the directions on your forms whom and whom not you can use for a Reference.  There are certain criteria that your References must meet.

2.  When you registered onto this site you were requested to read the Army.ca Conduct Guidelines.  It lays out what we expect of people on this site; such things as professional writing skills and correct use of the English language - NO MSM SPEAK, etc.


----------



## Red Devil

On the subject of references - at what stage of the application process do the CF contact your referees?

I have put my current employer down as a referee. I'm sure he will give me an excellent reference but I'd like to give him a little advance warning of the phone call/letter. BUT, I'd rather not mention it to him until nearer the time in case nothing comes of my application, and just in case there's a negative reaction. 

Thanks.


----------



## Red Devil

I think I found my own answer - seems like they can start calling referees right near the beginning of the application process. 

If you know any different please let me know.


----------



## Nostix

Red Devil said:
			
		

> On the subject of references - at what stage of the application process do the CF contact your referees?
> 
> I have put my current employer down as a referee. I'm sure he will give me an excellent reference but I'd like to give him a little advance warning of the phone call/letter. BUT, I'd rather not mention it to him until nearer the time in case nothing comes of my application, and just in case there's a negative reaction.
> 
> Thanks.



As a matter of common courtesy, you should always inform someone before you give their name out as a reference, no matter which job you're applying for.


----------



## Red Devil

I appreciate your comment Nostix but as he's my current employer I don't think I have a choice in whether he's contacted or not. I had previously contacted all my 'personal' referees, as I would always do.


----------



## Nauticus

Red Devil said:
			
		

> I appreciate your comment Nostix but as he's my current employer I don't think I have a choice in whether he's contacted or not. I had previously contacted all my 'personal' referees, as I would always do.


Then you should probably consider contacting him and letting him know that he might expect a call from the CF.


----------



## AimzHigh

So because I've been moving around so much the past 4 or 5 years I don't have too many steady friends to use as references. I have some family I could use and I will if I have too.  I just thought it would be better to use people that wouldn't certainly try to make me look good.  I want them to know the kind of person I am from the view of coworkers and friends.

Does anybody know the kind of questions they're going to ask? Would it be a bad idea just too use family (not immediate family)? Or better to use ex-coworkers and friends?

Appreciate your input. Thanks.


----------



## Sigil

Do NOT put family members as references. Coworkers and friends are fine, although employers, teachers, clergy members and others like that are ideal. I don't know the questions they ask, but I imagine it's the usual kind of reference questions. What kind of person you are, strengths, weaknesses, are you punctual/reliable, would they hire/recommend, etc.  Just be sure to ask your references ahead of time for permission.

And read the sheet your CFRC should have given you that talks about references.


----------



## AimzHigh

Thanks Sigil.  I'll try to get as many non-family members as I can.  The sheet only says no immediate family but I imagine uncles or cousins wouldn't be ideal either.  It's a little difficult because I've been in 6 cities in the last 5 or 6 years but I'll find them.  Thanks again.

Sidenote:
I was just informed about writting too many similar posts in the forum.  Afraid that if I post another to say I'm sorry for posting might be the last straw, so I'll just apologize here.  I'll tone it down. Thanks.


----------



## dev_tech

The exception to the family rule is if the member is in the forces.  A certain captain aunt of mine has helped a lot.  She married in to the family, so the RC was OK with her as a ref.


----------



## 2011Applicant

I had used several people as references that had prior military experience, and some friends, and my current boss. The only person that they called, however, was my boss. I'm not sure if they have a particular system when it comes to choosing which references they speak with, but they only called 1 out of 5 for me.


----------



## kmcneil

When I was in for my interview I noticed on my application that my Sea Cadet CO and XO were circled on the reference page. As far as I know, they never contacted any of the others.


----------



## 2011Applicant

Stacked said:
			
		

> From what I've *heard* if they call one reference and they like what they hear they usually just say you're good to go. They called my former employer and he said they talked for about 30 minutes. That was the only reference they called for me as well.


They only talked to my boss for like 5 minutes or so.
After they got past the language barrier (my boss is native to South Korea) everything was fine apparently.
Thanks for telling me that.


----------



## nairna

Only one person on my list was called. I have not known anyone for more than five years though so I was told that a family member was alright as a result, though they were never called anyway.


----------



## FactorXYZ

Hi all,
This is my first post, so please go easy on me  and please forgive any errors. Allow me to explain my situation, I'm 18 fresh outta high school, and joining the military ( more specifically the combat arms) has always been something that interested me. The catch is that at the end of grade 11 I moved to Vancouver island to live with family, and finished high school there, then i moved to Vancouver for work immediately afterwords, and it is there I applied. My question is this: because of all the moving around I did, all of my references are friends and old neighbors, is this gonna hurt my application and/or cause my application to be deemed less competitive compared to somebody who has teachers and employers as references, I mean come on I'm only 18, just getting my feet wet in the ocean that is the real world! 
Any advice would be greatly appreciated
Thanks


----------



## lethalLemon

I, too, was in the same boat.

Just use whatever you've got (that isn't family) and you should be fine - you don't have much of a choice really. If the CFRC has any issues with it, they will contact you.


----------



## FactorXYZ

Thanks lethalLemon! Im a little more at ease now


----------



## lethalLemon

I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the number of times I moved or changed schools anymore, haha. As long as you have some people that you've always been in contact with over the years and know you well (once again, *no family*); there won't be a problem.


----------



## JBrock

As you probably already know, just make sure your refrences have known you for five years as required on the application form and make sure they are reliable and avaliable for the CFRC to get in touch with. I'm sure you wont have any problems because of all the moving you've had to do though. Good luck!


----------



## NBiederman

Hello,
I am currently updating my reference and was hoping I could get some opinions on employment sections. I am a soccer referee and have listed this under extra-curricular/volunteer work on my application forms. The reason I did this is because as a ref I am not employed by anyone, but I contact specific people in order to be assigned games. I ref for the exercise and enjoyment, and although I do get paid, it goes to paying for fuel costs to get to the game as well as uniforms. My question is, if I am using a referee coordinator as a reference should I list him as an employment reference? The man I am using as a reference assigns me games and assesses me as a ref, and I was told volunteering references are listed as employment. Any opinions would be appreciated.
Thanks


----------



## Waters81

You may be able to use it for both. Albeit you're getting paid for it, the pay is minimal and it is still something you're  volunteering your time. If they ask about it, just explain the situation as you have here. I  highly doubt it would harm your your chances.
If anyone has any better advice, feel free to correct me.

Good Luck.
Cheers


----------



## Trick

Hi all,

I'm currently putting together an application as an Infantry Officer (2nd choice as Armour). I'm pretty happy with most parts of my application (work/volunteer, sports, academics, etc...) but one thing that has me worried is what's maybe the easiest for many- the references. I'm currently doing my Masters in Toronto after doing my undergrad at Western (in London). I've had various jobs throughout- pretty much all research jobs, and all the typical junior research positions (~4 months). The thing is, other than a few close friends and family, no one else really has known me WELL for the past five years constantly. Haha, saying it that way makes me feel like a recluse- but it's just the I've been all over, worked in different cities, different countries even, so I can't think of many people who can be a good reference.

It's possible I'm over-thinking the issue- in the medical community a reference is expected to write you a letter talking about how he knows you oh so well and that you're god's gift to the universe. I know that's not what's required here, but I still feel odd for example asking my favourite high school teacher who I kind of stay in contact with for a reference. Also, I've heard that the limitation on family is only immediate family, is that true? I have two uncles that would make good references- one a general, the other the priest at my church. Obviously if I can use them I'll be less worried.

If anyone has any advice I'd really appreciate it,
Trick

Oh, P.S. In the app is also asks for your service number as a cadet... do any former cadets remember ever having a service number? Do I just have on that I was unaware of?


----------



## Trick

Great, thanks for clearing that up. Only trained, never was staff.


----------



## Azeem

For the references part of your question I also had a problem with the people who have known me for atleast 5 years. I asked my recruiter about it and he said if you're under a certain age then they only have to know you for two years (or something like that). My memory is a bit "foggy" but the best bet would be to call your recruitment center and ask them about it because my numbers could be, and most likely are, off.


----------



## howitzer89

I was told I needed to know them for 5 straight years and im 22 years old. Told them I couldn't put down any co-workers and what not so they said it's no problems, just put down family friends or friends of your own. Maybe even a high school teacher if you got along with them at all


----------



## Azeem

Yeah that was it - since the age of 16. Thanks for the fix!


----------



## Trick

Yeah, I'm 23, so it's the last 5 years. Atm that's what I have, a highschool teacher, 2 friends, 2 family friends. Really not any "professional" references, which makes me a little uneasy. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but they also accept one written letter of reference right? I really should have asked yesterday but completely forgot.


----------



## jnunes13

Trick said:
			
		

> Yeah, I'm 23, so it's the last 5 years. Atm that's what I have, a highschool teacher, 2 friends, 2 family friends. Really not any "professional" references, which makes me a little uneasy. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but they also accept one written letter of reference right? I really should have asked yesterday but completely forgot.



Hey Trick,

When I went for my interview, I brought with me a letter of reference from the Humane Society that I volunteer at, I was told by the Captain that interviewed me that this would be suffiicient enough and that she wouldn't need to contact any of my references. I received my job offer 3 weeks after my interview and none of my references were contacted, so (in my case at least) a well written letter was all that was needed


----------



## Romanmaz

Trick said:
			
		

> Yeah, I'm 23, so it's the last 5 years. Atm that's what I have, a highschool teacher, 2 friends, 2 family friends. Really not any "professional" references, which makes me a little uneasy. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but they also accept one written letter of reference right? I really should have asked yesterday but completely forgot.


From my understanding, when I was doing my references, they told me that it doesn't really matter if they're all personal references, as long as you trust them knowing you well enough to answer some fairly basic questions about you, its just a checkmark next to your name in a file at the end of the day. Nothing to stress over. Also never put a girlfriend down as a reference  :facepalm:


----------



## Trick

Sorry, I know I'm beating this reference thing to death, but I was wondering about "old" references. The recruiter told me that generally the longer they've known you the better. There are some good references I could use that have known me since childhood, but many of whom I barely see these days. Would they still make good references? I'm kind of afraid of how it'll seem if they have to say that they see me like once a year these days- does that really make them reliable references?

Also, this is totally unrelated- At the risk of sounding arrogant, being a competitive boxer, I'm not worried about passing the physical standards, but I want to as well as possible on the tests. To that end I've been practicing the CF way of doing these things. The way I read the description of pushups you have to lock your arms at the top of the movement- something I never do normally. After doing 3 sets of 50 I've gotten this pain in my elbow which I'm pretty sure is due to the way I'm doing these. Is this really the way the CF does pushups?

Thanks again for all the advice guys,

P.S. If someone wants to give me some fitness targets for an Infantryman (not just passing BMOQ) I'd love to hear them.


----------



## Romanmaz

Trick said:
			
		

> Sorry, I know I'm beating this reference thing to death, but I was wondering about "old" references. The recruiter told me that generally the longer they've known you the better. There are some good references I could use that have known me since childhood, but many of whom I barely see these days. Would they still make good references? I'm kind of afraid of how it'll seem if they have to say that they see me like once a year these days- does that really make them reliable references?
> 
> Also, this is totally unrelated- At the risk of sounding arrogant, being a competitive boxer, I'm not worried about passing the physical standards, but I want to as well as possible on the tests. To that end I've been practicing the CF way of doing these things. The way I read the description of pushups you have to lock your arms at the top of the movement- something I never do normally. After doing 3 sets of 50 I've gotten this pain in my elbow which I'm pretty sure is due to the way I'm doing these. Is this really the way the CF does pushups?
> 
> Thanks again for all the advice guys,
> 
> P.S. If someone wants to give me some fitness targets for an Infantryman (not just passing BMOQ) I'd love to hear them.


1. Push-Ups
>> Lie flat on your stomach, legs together.
>> Hands, pointing forward, should be positioned comfortably under the
shoulders: someone standing over you should be able to see part of your
hand but not all of it. Elbows should be along your sides.
>> Using your toes as the pivot point, push up by straightening and locking
your elbows. The body must be kept in a straight line.
>> When returning to the starting position, the back of the upper arms will
be parallel to the mat. Your chin, stomach, thighs, and knees are not to
touch the mat.
>> Push-ups are to be performed continuously and without a time limit.
Repetitions that do not conform to the push-up test technique should not
be counted. Perform this motion in a continuous manner. Do as many
repetitions as you can. Stop when the movement becomes forcibly strained.

That's straight from the manual, however anyone that works out will tell you that locking out is very bad for your joints, be its doing pushups, bench pressing, or squatting. It sounds like you might be aggravating a previous elbow injury because it takes years to actually get to that point. All I can say is make sure you stretch and warm up properly, it's definitely something you need to take care of before going to basic.
As for references see above post  :nod:

Also there's a little website called forces.ca and google.ca that can answer most of your questions  :


----------



## Trick

Ha, well that's my question. I've read all that and I was wondering if really in practice in the CF people do their pushups locking their elbows each time.


----------



## Snow

I'm thinking of applying, but I'm kind of worried about this whole business of references.

In this thread I've gotten the impression that it's acceptable to use old teachers as references, but I've also read that your references are required to have known you for 5 continuous years.

I'm a couple years out of high school, but I think I've probably got enough residual good will from a few of my old teachers that they'd give me a reference, the only trouble is that I was really only in contact with them for three years at best, though it has been 5 years since we first met. Would that be sufficient?


----------



## Trick

From what I've heard- yes that will suffice. But if it means anything I've actually decided against using my old HS teacher. I'm now going with a family friend who's known me forever and basically 4 friends/co-workers who know me well, and all over 5 years. I'm a little nervous about not really having any "supervisors" as references, but the nature of being a student makes it hard to have someone like that who's known you well for 5 years. I decided to go with people who know me best. We'll see how it turns out.


----------



## aesop081

Trick said:
			
		

> I'm a little nervous about not really having any "supervisors" as references,



I had never had a job prior to joining the CF so not having any "supervisor" references certainly did not hurt me.



> but the nature of being a student makes it hard to have someone like that



I agree with you in that i know plenty of students who change jobs as frequently as i change TV channels but in reality, it is not that difficult.


----------



## Trick

Thanks Aviator, that eases my worries. Did you apply as an officer? I think you mentioned somewhere you're a pilot now. I'm just a little worried by having five friends basically as my references. I mean, of course they think I'm great- they're my friends...

I think I'm done dragging my heels on the references though. Listing them is all that's left, so I just want to finish that and get this application in ASAP.


----------



## aesop081

Trick said:
			
		

> Did you apply as an officer?



No, i am a happy NCM.



> I think you mentioned somewhere you're a pilot now.



I am not a pilot. 


Try not to worry too much about things you have no control over. If the references you have meet the requirements laid out in the instructions, then you are good to go. You cant go out and get a 5-year supervisor reference now can you ? Good luck.


----------



## Romanmaz

Trick said:
			
		

> From what I've heard- yes that will suffice. But if it means anything I've actually decided against using my old HS teacher. I'm now going with a family friend who's known me forever and basically 4 friends/co-workers who know me well, and all over 5 years. I'm a little nervous about not really having any "supervisors" as references, but the nature of being a student makes it hard to have someone like that who's known you well for 5 years. I decided to go with people who know me best. We'll see how it turns out.


I hate to quote myself but this question was answered a couple posts ago = "From my understanding, when I was doing my references, they told me that it doesn't really matter if they're all personal references, as long as you trust them knowing you well enough to answer some fairly basic questions about you, its just a checkmark next to your name in a file at the end of the day. Nothing to stress over. Also never put a girlfriend down as a reference  :facepalm:  " 
asm)
(sarcasm)Don't you trust me?  : (sarcasm)


----------



## Snow

Trick said:
			
		

> From what I've heard- yes that will suffice. But if it means anything I've actually decided against using my old HS teacher. I'm now going with a family friend who's known me forever and basically 4 friends/co-workers who know me well, and all over 5 years. I'm a little nervous about not really having any "supervisors" as references, but the nature of being a student makes it hard to have someone like that who's known you well for 5 years. I decided to go with people who know me best. We'll see how it turns out.



I'd use employment references if I had them, but unfortunately I haven't known any that long. 

The first 5 people I intend to ask are two teachers, a pastor, a family friend and a personal friend.


----------



## Recruit_in_Progress

After getting such a quick response from my last question I got one more you guys.

Here is my basic situation:

I moved to Australia 5 years ago to stay with my Uncle for a year and have only been back in the country for the last 4. Now I need 5 references that have known me for the last 5 years in my application, and while I was away lost contact with allot of people I used to know. 

I had a couple friends from college I still kept in contact with and currently work with the wife of one of them who I've also known for the last 6 yrs. So I have no problem coming up with 3 at the moment. The 4th one I've put down was one of my friends brothers who used to party with us in college and I've seen once or twice a year over the last couple years. As for reference material if my recruiter wants to know how well I held my liquor in college he would of been my first choice but I'm hoping he'll be able to provide enough relevant information when they call. The only other person I know who has known me over 5 years ago is my neighbour. I used to work with him at Canadain Tire when I was in High School and since leaving Canadian tire (about 7 years ago) havn't seen him since I moved in next door to him (3 months ago).

I'm hoping that this will be sufficent but if not what would be my situation? Would I have to wait 1-2 years till my current friends or colleages have known me for 5 yrs to re-apply? Should I add additional contacts that have known me for less then 5 years as well as the 5 above?

Thanks


----------



## Romanmaz

Recruit_in_Progress said:
			
		

> After getting such a quick response from my last question I got one more you guys.
> 
> Here is my basic situation:
> 
> I moved to Australia 5 years ago to stay with my Uncle for a year and have only been back in the country for the last 4. Now I need 5 references that have known me for the last 5 years in my application, and while I was away lost contact with allot of people I used to know.
> 
> I had a couple friends from college I still kept in contact with and currently work with the wife of one of them who I've also known for the last 6 yrs. So I have no problem coming up with 3 at the moment. The 4th one I've put down was one of my friends brothers who used to party with us in college and I've seen once or twice a year over the last couple years. As for reference material if my recruiter wants to know how well I held my liquor in college he would of been my first choice but I'm hoping he'll be able to provide enough relevant information when they call. The only other person I know who has known me over 5 years ago is my neighbour. I used to work with him at Canadain Tire when I was in High School and since leaving Canadian tire (about 7 years ago) havn't seen him since I moved in next door to him (3 months ago).
> 
> I'm hoping that this will be sufficent but if not what would be my situation? Would I have to wait 1-2 years till my current friends or colleages have known me for 5 yrs to re-apply? Should I add additional contacts that have known me for less then 5 years as well as the 5 above?
> 
> Thanks


At the end of the day, references are simply a prerequisite in the application process to get a check-mark next to your name in a case folder. As long as you can find 5 people that will be able to answer some fairly basic questions about you and will say that they have known you for at-least 5 years you're fine. Don't you have any family friends that have known you through your adolescence? You don't want to put down some dude you got drunk with in college. From my experience, they only call the most competent/important references on the form. I had 2 teachers, 2 friends, and a police officer/ former army colonel. You can guess which one they called.


----------



## Pusser

Romanmaz said:
			
		

> At the end of the day, references are simply a prerequisite in the application process to get a check-mark next to your name in a case folder. As long as you can find 5 people that will be able to answer some fairly basic questions about you and will say that they have known you for at-least 5 years you're fine. Don't you have any family friends that have known you through your adolescence? You don't want to put down some dude you got drunk with in college. From my experience, they only call the most competent/important references on the form. I had 2 teachers, 2 friends, and a police officer/ former army colonel. You can guess which one they called.



And your assessment of the CF's background checks and their utility is based on your vast experience with CF security protocols gained where?  The recruiting centre?  It's probably best not to comment on things about which you know little and encouraging a potential applicant to find people willing to lie for him is probably not the best course of action is it?

To the OP:  the provision of references is more than just a tick in the box.  Not only are they looking for people who can comment on your character and your suitability for the program to which you are applying, it can also form the basis of the work required to grant you a security clearance.  The most important thing to do is tell the truth.  If you don't know five people, you don't know five people.  Tell them that.  It is better to leave a line blank (with an explanation) than to lie.  It's even worse if you get someone to lie for you as good investigators will see right through that and you won't come out looking good. The fact that you haven't seen your neighbour for the last few years and have only become reacquainted is not a problem.  He still knows you and has known you in the past.  If he is contacted, the conversation will cover this.  On a final note, make sure you talk to anyone you list as a reference before you submit the form.  A subordinate of mine once put me down as a reference, but didn't tell me first.  When his prospective new employer called me, I gave his a very honest and fair assessment of my subordinate.  He didn't get the job...


----------



## ballz

Surely by utilizing the wonders of superpages.ca and facebook, and other modern-day creeping tools, you can get a hold of a professor or sports coach or something? 

Apparently I am only 6 degrees of seperation away from anyone in the world. I have been tempted to test this theory using these two tools to contact Emma Watson (Yes, I am a Harry Potter fan) or Sarah Michelle Gellar. You should test whether I am wasting my time by first using these to contact an old sports coach or your favourite professor or something. If you can't, then I will know not to follow through with these endeavours.


----------



## Romanmaz

Pusser said:
			
		

> And your assessment of the CF's background checks and their utility is based on your vast experience with CF security protocols gained where?  The recruiting centre?  It's probably best not to comment on things about which you know little and encouraging a potential applicant to find people willing to lie for him is probably not the best course of action is it?
> 
> To the OP:  the provision of references is more than just a tick in the box.  Not only are they looking for people who can comment on your character and your suitability for the program to which you are applying, it can also form the basis of the work required to grant you a security clearance.  The most important thing to do is tell the truth.  If you don't know five people, you don't know five people.  Tell them that.  It is better to leave a line blank (with an explanation) than to lie.  It's even worse if you get someone to lie for you as good investigators will see right through that and you won't come out looking good. The fact that you haven't seen your neighbour for the last few years and have only become reacquainted is not a problem.  He still knows you and has known you in the past.  If he is contacted, the conversation will cover this.  On a final note, make sure you talk to anyone you list as a reference before you submit the form.  A subordinate of mine once put me down as a reference, but didn't tell me first.  When his prospective new employer called me, I gave his a very honest and fair assessment of my subordinate.  He didn't get the job...


If I made it seem that I have vast experience with the CF''s background checks and security protocol I'd like to clarify and say that I don't. I'm simply repeating back what I was told when I asked the same question at the recruiting center to an officer who I'm assuming does have vast experience with security protocols and background checks. Maybe I was mistaken, if so, disregard that post.


----------



## Recruit_in_Progress

ballz said:
			
		

> Surely by utilizing the wonders of superpages.ca and facebook, and other modern-day creeping tools, you can get a hold of a professor or sports coach or something?



I actually don't have facebook (I know I know), but this has been the first time I wish I had. Tried getting a hold of my previous cadet squadron I was in but I honestly havn't seen any of them in years either. I got 5 that on paper I'll explain my situation to the recruiter when I pass my app in, just I know a dozen other people that know me better then my last 2 refs but have only known me for the last 3 years or so.


On a side note, I was expecting to have it in by now. Stopped by the CFRC with everything but my High School Transcript hopping to get the ball rolling while I wait for my High school to mail it to me but no dice. But I geuss I should start getting used to the waiting now from what I've been reading on here theres allot more waiting to come. 

Seeing post like this though:



			
				Mudshuvel said:
			
		

> There were only 19 spots left for 2011 Fiscal Year for ATIS Tech. Most if not *all* were filled in last selection (June 15th).
> 
> Confirmed by CF Recruiting.



Has me worried as I'm applying to the NCM-SEP for ATIS


----------



## Nauticus

Romanmaz said:
			
		

> If I made it seem that I have vast experience with the CF''s background checks and security protocol I'd like to clarify and say that I don't. I'm simply repeating back what I was told when I asked the same question at the recruiting center to an officer who I'm assuming does have vast experience with security protocols and background checks. Maybe I was mistaken, if so, disregard that post.


Just for clarification, you're alleging that a CF recruiter suggested to you that you should get people to lie on your application to the Canadian Forces?


----------



## maltyy

So wait wait wait...you're saying I can use references that have known me since I was 16, instead of people I've known for 5 years? I'm 17 right now, and the most time that a possible reference has known me for is probably 3 years. Is that okay? Also, my uncle is a past employer, can i still not use him?


----------



## jasonf6

maltyy said:
			
		

> So wait wait wait...you're saying I can use references that have known me since I was 16, instead of people I've known for 5 years? I'm 17 right now, and the most time that a possible reference has known me for is probably 3 years. Is that okay? Also, my uncle is a past employer, can i still not use him?


The way I understood the family aspect of it is that you can't use immediate family (ie, mother, father, brother and sister).  Uncle's should be okay unless they were your guardian in lieu of a mother/father figure.  

As to the age 16 think, isn't that the earliest possible age you can apply at (with consent)?  It may be that they say up to 16 because of this fact and the years immediately prior to that is when you start to develop a sense of what you want to do and start showing your maturity?  I dunno, I'm not a psychologist or anything.


----------



## PMedMoe

maltyy said:
			
		

> So wait wait wait...you're saying I can use references that have known me since I was 16, instead of people I've known for 5 years? I'm 17 right now, and the most time that a possible reference has known me for is probably 3 years. Is that okay? Also, my uncle is a past employer, can i still not use him?



Right from the Forces website:



> PERSONAL AND EMPLOYMENT REFERENCE CHECKS
> 
> You must provide five references from people who are not relatives. These people must have known you for the last five years (or since you were 16, whichever comes first).


----------



## jasonf6

Well, there you have it.


----------



## aesop081

jasonf6 said:
			
		

> Well, there you have it.



Yes...the same instructions on all the forms for references.........odd !


----------



## maltyy

So are the references just called by the recruiter and have to talk to them, or do the references have to write a letter or something? Would that help or is it not necessary?


----------



## jasonf6

maltyy said:
			
		

> So are the references just called by the recruiter and have to talk to them, or do the references have to write a letter or something? Would that help or is it not necessary?


The process I just went through, file heading to Borden now, had the recruiter calling mine.  I wasn't required to bring a letter from any of them.


----------



## shooked1

How important are your reference's in the grand scheme of the recruiting process? I know a lot of people, but most of the people I would put down on the reference I have not know long enough.


----------



## aesop081

maltyy said:
			
		

> Would that help or is it not necessary?



Fill out the form and hand it in. Thats what you are told to do. Simply follow direction.


----------



## AviatorHB

Hello, I went to the CFRC and they gave me forms. The references sheet was given to me and the recruiter told me I only needed 3 references. I asked him "I thought it was 5?" and he said " no 3" On the sheet, there are only 3 areas to be filled for reference 1,2 and 3.

Why do I only need 3 references while the website claims 5?
Also I find this whole recruitment process a mess...


----------



## jasonf6

The sheet I used had places for five references....the more the better honestly because if some don't answer the phone they move on to another.  As part of the interview the recruiting officer will give you more forms to fill out and ask you to put down 3 of the 5 references you provided.


----------



## PMedMoe

AviatorHB said:
			
		

> Hello, I went to the CFRC and they gave me forms. The references sheet was given to me and the recruiter told me I only needed 3 references. I asked him "I thought it was 5?" and he said " no 3" On the sheet, there are only 3 areas to be filled for reference 1,2 and 3.
> 
> Why do I only need 3 references while the website claims 5?
> Also I find this whole recruitment process a mess...



I'm guessing that some forms have been updated or the website or vice versa.

A mess?  Hell, if it were easy, everyone would be doing it.....oh wait, never mind.......


----------



## aesop081

AviatorHB said:
			
		

> Also I find this whole recruitment process a mess...



The form has 3 spaces. The recruiter told you 3...........

Provide 3 f***** references.


----------



## FlyingDutchman

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I'm guessing that some forms have been updated or the website or vice versa.
> 
> A mess?  Hell, if it were easy, everyone would be doing it.....oh wait, never mind.......


The five reference sheet is used by Back Check, a company that is no longer in use by the CF.  If they were to use that sheet, it would cost the CF $100.  - to paraphrase my recuiter, who also found it very perplexing that my application had the five reference older sheet.


----------



## jasonf6

FlyingDutchman said:
			
		

> The five reference sheet is used by Back Check, a company that is no longer in use by the CF.  If they were to use that sheet, it would cost the CF $100.  - to paraphrase my recuiter, who also found it very perplexing that my application had the five reference older sheet.


Ah, I also thought it was a little much.

....


----------



## GAP

Because you insist on second guessing anything and everything..........read instructions, follow instructions....period.


----------



## Noctix

I am currently filling out an application to the Army Rerserves, but I don't really have any references I've known consecutively for 5 years and some of my previous jobs didnt exactly have a nice ending.

What am I to do?


----------



## m.k

find references.


----------



## mariomike

You may find an answer here.

Topic: The " Reference" Superthread:
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/12763.0.html


----------



## Noctix

"Your references must have known you for at least five (5) continuous years of coverage (or to age 16, whichever comes first)."

I thought that meant each reference had to have known me for 5 years, could someone clarify this for me, please and thanks.


----------



## PMedMoe

If you are 21 (or older), they must have known you for 5 continuous years.  If under 21, then they must have known you at least since you were 16.


----------



## AviatorHB

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> The form has 3 spaces. The recruiter told you 3...........
> 
> Provide 3 f***** references.



Thank you for your input.


----------



## KeoughJ

Hey guys, quicky question. Just sent my initial application through online, and I have all the paper works there requesting except my Letters of references. I just want to know if there looking for anything specific or just a general letter? 

Thanks


----------



## Waters81

KeoughJ said:
			
		

> Hey guys, quicky question. Just sent my initial application through online, and I have all the paper works there requesting except my Letters of references. I just want to know if there looking for anything specific or just a general letter?
> 
> Thanks



Not sure about the reserves, but I'm pretty sure that they dont accept letters of reference anymore. There is a form that you fill out that allows you to provide the contact information for 3 references (or 5, pretty sure it was changed to 3 though). Contact your local RC to confrim, but I'm pretty sure thats the process now.

If anyone knows better, please feel free to correct me, I don't want to be the one providing false information and causing issues.


----------



## KeoughJ

Waters81 said:
			
		

> Not sure about the reserves, but I'm pretty sure that they dont accept letters of reference anymore. There is a form that you fill out that allows you to provide the contact information for 3 references (or 5, pretty sure it was changed to 3 though). Contact your local RC to confrim, but I'm pretty sure thats the process now.
> 
> If anyone knows better, please feel free to correct me, I don't want to be the one providing false information and causing issues.



Applying full time forces and this is what the site is saying

Apprentice Papers                      Not Applicable 
Birth Certificate                          Required 
Birth Certificate of Dependents  Not Applicable
Certificate/Card of Citizenship   Not Applicable 
Letter of Reference 1                 Required 
Letter of Reference 2                 Required 
Marriage Certificate                   Not Applicable 
Pilot Log Books                          Not Applicable 
Professional Licenses                Not Applicable 
Social Insurance Card                Not Applicable 
Transcript of School Marks         Required 
Signed Employment Application Form Received 
TBS 330-60 - Security Clearance Not Applicable 
TBS 330-23 - Pers Screening     Required 

Now I filled out everything and have copies of my b.c., and transcripts and a filled out TBS330-23 form. It seems as I wont be dealing with my local RC until this paper work is handed in and I would have called the National Recruitment Centre today if I had time (at work between there hours of operation) to get this sorted and with the weekend happening now I would like to make use of the opportunity of free time. If someone has just been through this your advice would prove useful.


----------



## Gulruthina

Hi All,

I have a question in regards to references and Employment History. 

*1. Am I required to list all my employment history up to (5) years? If I chose not to list one of my part time jobs or any (1) of my jobs within the past 5 years, would that be a problem?*

2. I am trying to fill up my Data Verification form and it ask of me to provide (4) Professional References. I am 24 years old and I just started my career as an accountant 2 years ago, that said, no one in my office or in the whole company I can use as a reference because I have only been working there for 2 years so everyone I know, Manager, Supervisor or co-workers have known me for 2 years.

*Can I use (4) references from my personal friend and classmates category instead? *

I cannot use my college professors because the classes and lectures are usually huge and I doubt they remember me as I don't really have a conversation with them on a daily basis. 

Thanks,
Mark


----------



## aesop081

Gulruthina said:
			
		

> would that be a problem?[/b]
> 
> YES !
> 
> The instructions tell you to list employment for that period. It doesn't tell you to cherry-pick what jobs to list.
> 
> Start getting used to doing exactly what is asked.


----------



## Gulruthina

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Gulruthina said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> would that be a problem?[/b]
> 
> YES !
> 
> The instructions tell you to list employment for that period. It doesn't tell you to cherry-pick what jobs to list.
> 
> Start getting used to doing exactly what is asked.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks! Also, on the form it tells me to write "Name of Contacts" and "Contacts Telephone#" and then "May we contact".
> 
> What question is,  if I chose the option* "May we contact = No"*, would that affect my application?
Click to expand...


----------



## armywife78

yeah...about references...what if i dont really have anyone that knows me for 5 years?? I am sorry but I have been moving alot. AND the ask for 5 of them!!  :-\ 
any advice?


----------



## Gulruthina

armywife78 said:
			
		

> yeah...about references...what if i dont really have anyone that knows me for 5 years?? I am sorry but I have been moving alot. AND the ask for 5 of them!!  :-\
> any advice?




it says on the form you need reference that knows you for 5 years or at the age of 16


----------



## cross

From http://www.forces.ca/en/page/howtoapply-106#step2-2 : 


			
				PERSONAL AND EMPLOYMENT REFERENCE CHECKS said:
			
		

> You must provide five references from people who are not relatives. These people must have known you for the last five years (or since you were 16, whichever comes first).



This is tough, because I haven't maintained any close friendships over the years. Do you have to have kept interacting with people continuously? Like I've taken some school courses so my teachers would have on record that I've been around, but I don't know if that's good enough.

I kind of feel like I might have to wait 5 years to join the army simply because I'm going to have to join a bunch of clubs or something just to get references. Which feels kinda weird since I'd almost feel like I'd be 'using' people. I don't feel right socializing solely for the purpose of getting a reference, though I guess doing it in terms of work/career or in terms of taking courses (like maybe learn swimming) would be okay.


----------



## aesop081

How old are you now ?


----------



## Gatsby

Curious if anyone knows when/if in the process they check your employment references. 

The list of _personal _ references given were all great ones, and I know one for sure was called the day of CFAT, Interview, Medical in early March. But the concern is for employers listed as "Okay to contact". One of the employers was a long time aquaintance, and there has been a recent personal falling out. Enough so that I doubt the reference would be a good one. 

Would an appointment with RC be in order to explain?


----------



## Pusser

Gatsby said:
			
		

> Curious if anyone knows when/if in the process they check your employment references.
> 
> The list of _personal _ references given were all great ones, and I know one for sure was called the day of CFAT, Interview, Medical in early March. But the concern is for employers listed as "Okay to contact". One of the employers was a long time aquaintance, and there has been a recent personal falling out. Enough so that I doubt the reference would be a good one.
> 
> Would an appointment with RC be in order to explain?



It probably wouldn't hurt to call and talk to your MCC.

When you give references, you should always talk to them first to make sure that they are willing to give you a good one.  I got a cold call once from a prospective employer for one of my subordinates.  It was an awkward conversation as I did not want to blade him, but at the same time my personal ethics demanded I be honest.  If anything, I committed a few sins of omission.  He didn't get the job - which also meant I was stuck with him....


----------



## Gatsby

Talking to the references first was no problem. The personal ones were all great. But the seperate sheet of employment history asked beside each employer "Okay to Contact" (Yes or No). Prior to the personal falling out, there was absolutely no issue with RC contacting this employer. There may or may not be now, and just curious about being pre-emptive.


----------



## knownothing89

Hey guys,
So I know that 'letters of reference' are no longer required as part of the application, only a list of references, but apparently some posts have mentioned that having a reference letter helps during the interview phase. I was wondering if one could clarify this for me:

Would a reference letter be handed in with the application or only during the interview?
Would I personally hand it in, or is it submitted by the reference? (ex. a university prof would personally mail a reference for a student applying to a program at another school) 
Who should the reference letter be addressed to? Since it could take anywhere between 3 months and a year for my application to get processed, and there is no individual interviewer to give it to, I would hate for my reference letter to not reach its destination at the right time and place.

I am making a trip down to the recruiting centre to clarify on this, but in the mean time I would like to hear input from you guys.
Thanks!


----------



## Trick

Hi all,

A (albeit quick) search didn't seem to turn up the answer to this simple question: Are your listed references part of the scoring process?

I ask because I feel like many young people in my position who have moved around a lot (especially for school) don't have many (if any) "supervisor" type references who have also known them for more than 5 years. Of course there are always friends, perhaps old teachers whom you've kept in touch with, but these people would obviously sing your praises, which doesn't really make for a good reference.


----------



## Sythen

Trick said:
			
		

> Of course there are always friends, perhaps old teachers whom you've kept in touch with, but these people would obviously sing your praises, which doesn't really make for a good reference.



Any reference that helps you get the job you're applying for is a good reference. Let the CF worry about its policies.


----------



## aesop081

Trick said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 
> A (albeit quick) search didn't seem to turn up the answer to this simple question: Are your listed references part of the scoring process?
> 
> I ask because I feel like many young people in my position who have moved around a lot (especially for school) don't have many (if any) "supervisor" type references who have also known them for more than 5 years. Of course there are always friends, perhaps old teachers whom you've kept in touch with, but these people would obviously sing your praises, which doesn't really make for a good reference.



Provide the references requested. That's all you have to do.

Or don't apply.

Simple.

You are not the only one who has moved around a lot. Some of us grew up in military families and moved every 2-3 years like clockwork. We managed to join before the was people on the internet to hold our hands.

Provide the references requested. That's all you have to do.

Or don't apply.

Simple.


----------



## big45-70

Does your recruiter have to contact all your references before you can be merit listed?


----------



## Jarry

big45-70 said:
			
		

> Does your recruiter have to contact all your references before you can be merit listed?



No , if your interview go well and everything is okay, the recruiter put you merit listed . But between the interview and the selection they will call your reference and if you got bad reference they put you out of merit list and pass to another applicant .

I got this information because the recruiter told me : you are now merit listed but your enrolement is conditional to what the reference you give will tell when we"ll call them.
I would also like to know if they call all your 5 reference ? Because i asked 2 of them and they didnt get call.
Have a nice day and soory for the bad english


----------



## big45-70

Jarry said:
			
		

> No , if your interview go well and everything is okay, the recruiter put you merit listed . But between the interview and the selection they will call your reference and if you got bad reference they put you out of merit list and pass to another applicant .
> 
> I got this information because the recruiter told me : you are now merit listed but your enrolement is conditional to what the reference you give will tell when we"ll call them.
> I would also like to know if they call all your 5 reference ? Because i asked 2 of them and they didnt get call.
> Have a nice day and soory for the bad english



Thanks for the info.


----------



## Jarry

You are welcome .
If you dont know were your file is or if you are merit listed , give a call to your recruit center , they can tell you if you are or not merit listed.
Good luck


----------



## big45-70

Jarry said:
			
		

> You are welcome .
> If you dont know were your file is or if you are merit listed , give a call to your recruit center , they can tell you if you are or not merit listed.
> Good luck



My recruiter told me to call in Friday or Monday.  I'm hoping for good news.  Thanks brother good luck to you as well.


----------



## 35522476v

> Your references must have known you for at least five (5) continuous years (or to age 16, whichever comes first).



Is 2 - 3 years for Employment References good enough? 

_PS. I'm only 22 and only have a couple experience in different field (i.e. retail, restaurant, security)_


----------



## armyguy1

When it comes to employment references I have some concern for my application. I have worked for the family business basically as long as I have had a job, and I also own my own small business as a personal trainer... So my only employment references would be my father and myself... What do I do in this scenario?


----------



## Allgunzblazing

Just an idea - your references could be the people you train or have trained.  

I'm just another applicant. The RC staff will be able to point you in the correct direction.


----------



## armyguy1

Allgunzblazing said:
			
		

> Just an idea - your references could be the people you train or have trained.
> 
> I'm just another applicant. The RC staff will be able to point you in the correct direction.



That is good advice thank you, I was also a football player and was thinking I might use my coaches as references as they would be the closest thing to a boss figure besides my father.


----------



## zulu95

After talking to my recruiter yesterday hes told me that i would need a total of five references. After reading this thread this seems strange, does any one have any idea why he would tell me that? Also I am applying to RMC if that makes a difference.


----------



## JorgSlice

zulu95 said:
			
		

> After talking to my recruiter yesterday hes told me that i would need a total of five references. After reading this thread this seems strange, does any one have any idea why he would tell me that? Also I am applying to RMC if that makes a difference.



Unless it has to do with the CF changing background check companies from BackCheck to GARDA Global, when I enrolled, it was only 3 references apart from Employers (which are listed in the Employment/Education section). It's been a while since I've looked at the application booklet so I could be off.


----------



## zulu95

Thanks I think I will try to get five anyway, just in case. Then I can always pick and choose.


----------



## aesop081

zulu95 said:
			
		

> Thanks I think I will try to get five anyway, just in case. Then I can always pick and choose.



It's pretty simple: The recruiter told you to get get 5, so get 5.

What you read here or anywhere else could be outdated, flat out wrong or simply not applicable to your situation. Do what was asked of you, it is something you will have to get used to anyways.


----------



## Journeyman

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> It's pretty simple: The recruiter told you...so get......


You'd think it were that simple


----------



## Oscar590

Regarding my employment history, if I worked at a place 2 years ago and I am no longer in contact with management (As well as the fact all the managers are different now) should I just list the number of the store and leave the contact name/email blank? 

I've emailed my recruiter the same question, but considering that it is the weekend I figured he wouldn't be checking his inbox on his days off so I might as well ask on here as well. I want to finish up my documents as soon as possible.


----------



## George Wallace

Lean-N-Supreme said:
			
		

> Regarding my employment history, if I worked at a place 2 years ago and I am no longer in contact with management (As well as the fact all the managers are different now) should I just list the number of the store and leave the contact name/email blank?
> 
> I've emailed my recruiter the same question, but considering that it is the weekend I figured he wouldn't be checking his inbox on his days off so I might as well ask on here as well. I want to finish up my documents as soon as possible.



There is a thing called the "Statutory Declaration".  Use that spot to explain anything, such as this example, that may raise questions.


----------



## SIROEW

Just out of curiosity, does anyone here know how often the recruiters contact all of your references? I have heard many answers, like they only call the first last one on your list, or they don't call if you have provided letters. I figured someone on here could hopefully provide me with a more definite answer.

Thanks in advance!


Simon


----------



## BeyondTheNow

I don't know how helpful this will be, but in my case I know that only one reference was contacted--my first one.  I had several reference letters included with an 'interview package' of my own that I brought to my interview, but the letters were from persons separate from my original list of references.

That being said, I've come across a story (I don't now how accurate it is, and I can't remember which thread I read it in ) of someone who was removed from BMQ because of something they had said or written that was later found to be false, so perhaps background/reference checks continue past the initial interview stage? I'm not sure...


----------



## SIROEW

Thanks for the info!


----------



## The_Green_Basterd

SIROEW said:
			
		

> Just out of curiosity, does anyone here know how often the recruiters contact all of your references? I have heard many answers, like they only call the first last one on your list, or they don't call if you have provided letters. I figured someone on here could hopefully provide me with a more definite answer.
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 
> 
> Simon




Hello.  I am a current CF Recruiter at a CFRC and will speak to the above quote.

The reference check has no real rhym to it in terms of if they use the first, last or middle reference.  Each MCC or File Manager that does the reference check will do it as they have been taught and many develope a way that works for them after doing it for so long.  Many factors are taken in.  One thing that is looked for is to see if the applicant is, "steering" the refernce check.  By this I mean, you are supposed to provide 5 references that have known you for 5 years each.  Some applicants will put down that they have known one person for an extremely long period of time, (ie 16 years) and the other 4 the bare minimum of 5 years (and in some cases less than the minimum)  In this case, the person doing the reference check wants to talk to someone that would know them well, and one would assume the person that has known the applicant for 16 years.  At this point, they would also choose, at a minimum, 1 of the people that has known they for 5 years because most applicants would know we will call the friend/associate etc of 16 years and might think we wont call the other 4.

Each MCC or file manager will go off there gut.  They will call as many references as they need to until they are satisfied they have a good picture of the applicant.  Sometimes this only takes 1-2 reference checks, sometimes all 5.  Written references will have little effect on this and even if you provided, say 12 references, we would still call, at a minimum, one of the references provided.

Again, the above is all depending on the gut feeling the MCC is having.  Also, all previous employers listed will be contacted.  I STRONGLY reccomend against, "forgetting," to list an old employer that might give a bad reference.  We understand not all employers will have good things to say about old employees, even the good old employees.  We often find out if you are not listing someone and thats worse than if we called them and got a bad reference.


----------



## SIROEW

Thanks for the help! Quite informative!


----------



## The_Green_Basterd

If anyone else has any reference chck questions they would like answered, I will check back on here sometime over the weekend but I am not a big Army.ca person and am just exploring the idea of having someone occasionaly take questions on this site.


----------



## Hax24

Hi, I'm wondering how long it usually takes for a reference check to be completed? I have called my Recruiting Centre every Friday for the past 4 weeks, and they still tell me that the reference check is in the process of being completed. 

And before anyone says it, I used the search function, and I could not find an answer to my question.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Hax24 said:
			
		

> Hi, I'm wondering how long it usually takes for a reference check to be completed? I have called my Recruiting Centre every Friday for the past 4 weeks, and they still tell me that the reference check is in the process of being completed.
> 
> And before anyone says it, I used the search function, and I could not find an answer to my question.



I would give them more time between you contacting them. They can be very busy and file managers can often have a lot on their plate.  I know waiting and not hearing anything can be frustrating, but I usually only called mine once a month. Occasionally, it may have been twice a month during a couple of instances where there was confusion as to what was taking place with my file.  It's not unusual for some applicants to go several weeks without hearing of any status changes to their process, or getting new information when they call for an update.


----------



## Hax24

Alright, thanks. I was actully only calling every week because the recruiters I talked to always told me to call back in a week!


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Hax24 said:
			
		

> Alright, thanks. I was actully only calling every week because the recruiters I talked to always told me to call back in a week!



Okay--sounds like your file manager is probably just as nice as mine, which isn't a bad thing, but I still try to give him some breathing room.  Best of luck!


----------



## Ducam

Proud_Canadian said:
			
		

> If anyone else has any reference chck questions they would like answered, I will check back on here sometime over the weekend but I am not a big Army.ca person and am just exploring the idea of having someone occasionaly take questions on this site.



I applied at the Toronto Office and was told that Garda Security will be doing the reference and background checks.

I completed my interview and medical February 26th and my interviewer, a Lieutenant, informed me that if my background hadn't already begun then it would be starting very soon.
He also informed me that I was a competitive civilian candidate with no real skill sets which can be applied to my chosen trades; Infantry, Armoured and Artillery. 

When I called back two weeks later to verify my reference contact numbers due to an office move I was told that my file was still being held by the Lieutenant.

Not sure why I would be told my background would have been started if my file hadn't been moved to Garda? Do they need to hear back from Ottawa about my medical before sending the file to Garda?

Not sure if you can provide any insight on this but I did inform the Lieutenant I was getting married on May 31st of this year and he told me that I didn't have to accept my first offer due to the fact that I'm getting married and cannot change that now.

The way I see it he is holding onto my file a bit longer to slow the background process so once I am merit listed and get a call I can accept my offer as basic would begin after my wedding.

Would my assumption seem accurate?

Does Garda do the reference checks or do they just look into the criminal background checks and financial investigation?


----------



## yamahaguitarguy

Hey guys I was wondering if anyone could give me an answer to this, sorry in advance for the long paragraph:

 For my "professional references" 2 of the 4 I am using are family friends that have employed me before. Under the "employment history" references is where I am uncertain however. I am only 18 so I don't have a huge amount of work experience. I have had a summer job in 9th grade and one last summer after graduating highschool. The problem is that from my 9th grade job theres no way they will remember who I am and for the 12th grade summer job I doubt they will remember me either as I was only there for 2.5 months. 

Anyways finally getting to the point, would it look bad if I put no contact info for those 2 summer jobs when putting them as references under my employment history? My 2 references under "professional references" are the best bet I have for a quality reference for work history so should I put them under "professional references" AND "employment history" ?

Sorry about the long paragraph, have a nice day!


----------



## DAA

You want to make sure that your "references" can readily be contacted.  Don't leave it blank!  If you are having issues, I would suggest you contact your respective CFRC and seek their advice.


----------



## yamahaguitarguy

DAA said:
			
		

> You want to make sure that your "references" can readily be contacted.  Don't leave it blank!  If you are having issues, I would suggest you contact your respective CFRC and seek their advice.



thanks for the reply. I think I have figured out what I'm going to do.


----------



## yamahaguitarguy

I have another question:

My most recent job was a 2 week temporary job through a placement agency so theres no way they could know me enough to give a reference. Would it look bad or suspicious to a recruiter if I put that job down but selected for them not to be contacted? Has anyone else here selected for the recruiters not to contact someone? I would ask a recruiter but the recruiter I was talking to on the phone randomly hung up on my halfway through explaining.....guess my question was stupid   ???


----------



## yamahaguitarguy

Also, I know its not required but is it a good idea to bring a reference letter as well or do they not accept them? I saw someone a few pages ago say they brought one but that was 2 years ago so things may have changed.


----------



## CFNewbie

Hopefully someone can help me out,

I've ran my own business (sole proprietorship) for the past 3 years, and previous to that I was in University. 

This means for my job history I only have a single entrance, and they obviously have no one to contact besides myself.

It also makes references difficult as I have no coworkers etc. My university teachers I did not know for the minimum 5 years. 

The best I can do for references is a highschool teacher and family friends. Is this going to be a problem? 

Could I include some references that I've known for less than 5 years?


----------



## The_Green_Basterd

Don't bother with reference letters unless you have been told to provide them, seldom used.  Also, and this changes daily and is handled differently file to file and trade to trade, but sometimes the objectives your file needs in order to be completed and ready for selection can be done linearly, meaning one after the other and do not move on until the that objective is complete and some times the file is processed utilizing concurrent activity.  In your case, for whatever reason, it does not seem like they are doing concurrent activity, (medical results pending while your reference check is being done.)  The reference checks are not cheap and thus they do not want to spend that money only to find out you had a medical problem that wasn't rectified before doing the checks.  Only in cases where the file is flagged because the trade is in need of being filled ASAP will a file have concurrent activity.

Ladies and Gents, this is why some files take 4 weeks to process and others 12 months etc.  The right person walks in for the right job that just can't be filled and has a deadline coming up and they get a CFAT, Medical and Interview on the same day, with a background check and a push on the medical results the next day.

Rare, but it happens and supply and demand is why.


----------



## Ducam

Proud_Canadian said:
			
		

> Don't bother with reference letters unless you have been told to provide them,



I have to disagree. When I came into the recruitment centre for the very first time with all my required documents I brought every single letter of reference I had and training certificates. Regardless of if they would give me an extra edge or not you never know what may propel your file forward and give you the edge over others.
I know they don't ask for the letters but I was also not asked about doing volunteer work, which I know they look upon favourably, so I am glad I had those letters.
In my opinion I would say every little bit helps. Don't exclude anything just because you're not asked.

Proud_Canadian: I do agree with the rest of your post. Background checks do seem to take forever. I've been in background for almost 6 weeks now.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Ducam said:
			
		

> I have to disagree...



I'd second Ducam. I brought an 'interview package' of sorts with me, complete with relevant certifications, licenses, community/academic/employment references, etc. At the appropriate time during the interview I interjected that I had prepared it. The interviewer was impressed and happy to view its contents. I was told specifically that it helped improve my level of competitiveness. Its contents were photocopied and added to my file. In my opinion, it never hurts to be prepared, regardless of whether certain components are specifically requested or not.


----------



## The_Green_Basterd

Ducam said:
			
		

> I have to disagree. When I came into the recruitment centre for the very first time with all my required documents I brought every single letter of reference I had and training certificates. Regardless of if they would give me an extra edge or not you never know what may propel your file forward and give you the edge over others.
> I know they don't ask for the letters but I was also not asked about doing volunteer work, which I know they look upon favourably, so I am glad I had those letters.
> In my opinion I would say every little bit helps. Don't exclude anything just because you're not asked.
> 
> Proud_Canadian: I do agree with the rest of your post. Background checks do seem to take forever. I've been in background for almost 6 weeks now.



Fill out your employment application (EA) properly and all your volunteer service and employment will be accounted for on it.  If you don't, you are doing yourself a serious disservice.


----------



## Ducam

Proud_Canadian said:
			
		

> Fill out your employment application (EA) properly and all your volunteer service and employment will be accounted for on it.  If you don't, you are doing yourself a serious disservice.



When I filled out the application it left no area for volunteer work. It asked for work experience and stated that if you had any volunteer experience to insert it there. This was the online application. 

I was able to put down one of my volunteer jobs but didn't have enough room to add the others I have done as I simply wasn't given the space.

I added my letters of reference from all my volunteer positions when I turned in all my information though.

So yes you are given some room to put your volunteer experience down but it appears to come second to job history. To make up for this anyone currently doing volunteer work or looking to do something in the future should obtain letters of reference for the work they have done just to make sure the recruitment centre has something on file showing that you do indeed volunteer.


----------



## The_Green_Basterd

Ducam said:
			
		

> When I filled out the application it left no area for volunteer work. It asked for work experience and stated that if you had any volunteer experience to insert it there. This was the online application.
> 
> I was able to put down one of my volunteer jobs but didn't have enough room to add the others I have done as I simply wasn't given the space.
> 
> I added my letters of reference from all my volunteer positions when I turned in all my information though.
> 
> So yes you are given some room to put your volunteer experience down but it appears to come second to job history. To make up for this anyone currently doing volunteer work or looking to do something in the future should obtain letters of reference for the work they have done just to make sure the recruitment centre has something on file showing that you do indeed volunteer.



Can you submit your reference letters online?


----------



## Ducam

Proud_Canadian said:
			
		

> Can you submit your reference letters online?



The online application is kinda like a fill in the blanks PDF document. You can save your profile and return anytime to add anything but you cannot upload documents to attach to the application. When I completed my application and got conformation that it was complete and they would like me to mail my follow up documents (birth cert and transcripts) I asked if I could just scan and send them via email. They said that would be ok but the server is not secure so they prefer to have them sent by mail. I asked about sending reference letters with my file and they said to just bring them in to the RC when my file is moved there.


----------



## The_Green_Basterd

Ducam said:
			
		

> The online application is kinda like a fill in the blanks PDF document. You can save your profile and return anytime to add anything but you cannot upload documents to attach to the application. When I completed my application and got conformation that it was complete and they would like me to mail my follow up documents (birth cert and transcripts) I asked if I could just scan and send them via email. They said that would be OK but the server is not secure so they prefer to have them sent by mail. I asked about sending reference letters with my file and they said to just bring them in to the RC when my file is moved there.



When you initially apply, they are going to need to know about that volunteer service.  While I don't work at North Bay, I would suggest, if you can't fit all your volunteer service onto the PDF Document, put, "Various volunteer experience," and the start and end dates in the one field.  This will get you the credit you will want in order to continue the application process.  If the only other option for letting them know is by reference letters down the road when your file is forwarded to a CFRC, you are risking not getting the points you need to get that file forwarded to a recruiting centre.

If I were you, I would take my suggestion and contact North Bay to see what they say, but anyway, find a way to get all that info to them from the start of the process.

References letters are great and generally acceptable for most jobs.  We want to speak to those people direct.  A Glowing reference letter never stopped me from actually calling the person, and I would had called the person even without the letter.


----------



## Ducam

Proud_Canadian said:
			
		

> When you initially apply, they are going to need to know about that volunteer service.  While I don't work at North Bay, I would suggest, if you can't fit all your volunteer service onto the PDF Document, put, "Various volunteer experience," and the start and end dates in the one field.  This will get you the credit you will want in order to continue the application process.  If the only other option for letting them know is by reference letters down the road when your file is forwarded to a CFRC, you are risking not getting the points you need to get that file forwarded to a recruiting centre.
> 
> If I were you, I would take my suggestion and contact North Bay to see what they say, but anyway, find a way to get all that info to them from the start of the process.
> 
> References letters are great and generally acceptable for most jobs.  We want to speak to those people direct.  A Glowing reference letter never stopped me from actually calling the person, and I would had called the person even without the letter.



That is very good advice to someone applying.

I have already been through the process and am now awaiting my reference and background check to be completed.

Interview, medical and CFAT are complete. It has been six weeks since my interview. 

When I went in to hand in the original copies of my transcripts and birth certificate I had every single letter of reference I had gotten to add to my file. Something like 11 letters in total from volunteer, employers, former police officers and RCMP. Anyone currently looking to apply should be contacting anyone they worked for, community members who may write you a letter, teachers and volunteer workers. My letters have always made me stand out in a job interview.

From what I am reading on these forums I have been able to put together that each trade has a specific selection time. I applied for Infantry and last year the selection months were June, August and November so I am not surprised I am still waiting to be merit listed as the ROTP selections are right now and their basic training is in May.


----------



## The_Green_Basterd

Well as I said before and to anyone currently in the process, don't get hung up on the reference letters.  I have done dozens if not hundreds of reference checks and trained our new staff in doing the reference checks, just pick people that are going to pick up the phone when we call and have something good to say about you.


----------



## yamahaguitarguy

I looked it up in this thread but didn't get a clear answer. Can I use an uncle as a person reference? We don't share the same last name.


----------



## PMedMoe

yamahaguitarguy said:
			
		

> I looked it up in this thread but didn't get a clear answer. Can I use an uncle as a person reference? We don't share the same last name.



Each applicant must provide five (5) references, who are not relatives.

http://cdn.forces.ca/_PDF2010/CF_ApplicationProcedure.pdf pg. 4.


----------



## George Wallace

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Each applicant must provide five (5) references, who are not relatives.
> 
> http://cdn.forces.ca/_PDF2010/CF_ApplicationProcedure.pdf pg. 4.



It can't be much clearer than that.  It is in your instructions.  Are you trying to tell us that you can not follow instructions?


----------



## Alexander.S

I'm in a bit of a condundrum, and hoping someone here can give me a bit of hope. I've been looking into military service the past two years, and have been working on getting myself into shape, but I don't have many long term friends, as I never really lived near my schools, and moved alot in my upbringing. The job I am currently working at was security, in which I was moved from a guard into an office job about a year ago. The guys I know in the office know me, but when I was a guard I worked any site in the city, so never really got to know anyone. That aside, I was a bit of a loner until then, and really don't have much in terms of long term friends. For references, are family friends/godparents applicable? Neither are strictly relatives, but I am unsure if they technically count. 

Basically, I don't have long term friends from school or what have you, and I'm hoping this ruin my chances. One of the guys I currently work with was in JTF2 and he basically recruited me lock stock and barrel, but I can't even use him on my reference sheet since I've only known him about a year and a half, maybe two years tops.


----------



## JM2345

Alexander.S said:
			
		

> For references, are family friends/godparents applicable? Neither are strictly relatives, but I am unsure if they technically count.



Yes, those will do. Most of the people who aren't fresh out of high school who I have seen are also using their family friends. Are they ideal? No. But as long as they aren't related to you, you should be good to go. I recently submitted my reference sheet with all friends and family friends and haven't heard any complaints from them. Just brush them up on what you have been up to with your life if you don't stay in close contact with them so they can answer some basic questions about you. 

If you are thinking strongly of apply, get the application going now, and you can work on the references later, you will have time to sort that out. I delayed applying because I was also scared about the references, and I really regret it because the whole process takes a long time and they didn't even need my references until 2 months after I applied. Good luck.


----------



## George Wallace

Alexander.S 

There are twenty odd pages here with every question under the sun about "References".  If you bother to read them, your questions will be answered.  This is not rocket science.  It is straight forward, stupid simple, what the requirements are.


----------



## Johngalt24

Tried to search but it didn't work.

What if you don't have any five year references?

I don't talk to anyone I've known for five years any more.  I have a bunch of people I can use that I have known for two, some of which serve in the forces. Does that suffice? Suggestions on what I should do?


----------



## mariomike

Johngalt24 said:
			
		

> What if you don't have any five year references?



This may help.
https://www.google.ca/search?btnG=1&pws=0&q=site%3Aarmy.ca+%22reference+superthread%22+%22five+years%22#pws=0&q=site:army.ca+%22reference+superthread%22+%22five+years%22+


----------



## brandon969

I'm sorry to admit that I haven't known anyone for over 5 years on a continual basis. 
Does this mean I can't join the armed forces because the only people I have known since I was 15, (I'm 20 now) are family members? 

http://www.forces.ca/en/page/applynow-100#Step1-2#step2-3

I'm considering joining, once I get my grade 12 education.


----------



## brandon969

I have known perhaps, one or two people, but not 5.


----------



## ComDvr13

probably been answered:

Can you use a brother-in-law? Not my sister's husband but his brother (currently in the navy is why i am wondering) 
not blood relative obvs and idk if i'd call him a friend. 

Curious.

Cheers


----------



## mariomike

ComDvr13 said:
			
		

> Can you use a brother-in-law? Not my sister's husband but his brother (currently in the navy is why i am wondering)
> not blood relative obvs and idk if i'd call him a friend.



Are brother-in-law, sister-in-law considered relatives?
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/12763/post-865800.html#msg865800


----------



## ComDvr13

mariomike said:
			
		

> Are brother-in-law, sister-in-law considered relatives?
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/12763/post-865800.html#msg865800



I appreciate the link but I am not married. And that post and the ones that followed talked about "your" spouses brothers and sisters as your in-laws. 

My situation is more: MY sister's husbands brother who is a naval officer. I.E. Professional In-Law, which a post further down did mention is acceptable...in 2009.
 Thank you Mariomike. If I had mp points I'd legitimize my gratitude :nod:


----------



## shadesofgreen

I saw that a lot of people said that they didn't ask for reference letters anymore but in my document status, it says:



> Letter of Reference 1
> 
> Required
> 
> Letter of Reference 2
> 
> Required



So who do I need to get a letter of reference from? (does it work like the 5 reference you have to give? either profesional, personal or school related people?)
 I'm only 19 and I don't have much work experience (worked at a summer day camp when I was 16 and a different one when I was 17. About 2 months and a half each.) I guess I could get one of them from my ''superviser/coordinator'' from one of the daycamps but the one at the second day camp not really (I don't think she knows me enough to write anything about me..). Could the other one be a friend or would that be weird? If not I have a lady that used to work at my HS, she was the one in charge of student activities or something and she was the one that took care of the ''student life committee'' that I was part of for two years (but then again we were not that close either, I was pretty shy/quiet in HS).


----------



## Phoenix80

I worked for a federal politician /MP some time ago. Is it beneficial to have him/her write a letter to the recruiting office on my behalf? Like a character witness testimony, or letter of recommendation? What about letters of recommendation from charity or not for profit organizations I have worked for as a volunteer?
Do these matter?
Thanks.


----------



## Zerkaiya

I know this has probably been answered already, but under professional references sections, do all the references need to be professional as outlined in the form? If so, what can you do if you have not held a job for 5 years ergo not known this individuals for 5 consecutive years? Does this leave them as unacceptable for a reference? Thanks for any replies in advance.

Zerkaiya


----------



## shadesofgreen

Zerkaiya said:
			
		

> I know this has probably been answered already, but under professional references sections, do all the references need to be professional as outlined in the form? If so, what can you do if you have not held a job for 5 years ergo not known this individuals for 5 consecutive years? Does this leave them as unacceptable for a reference? Thanks for any replies in advance.
> 
> Zerkaiya



I wondered that too, but they asked me for 4 references (academic, Professional and personal) and the only place they talked about references on the document is the ''Professional references'' section. I ended up putting 1 Professional one, 1 academic one and 2 personal one on that section. When I gave my papers to the recruiter at my CFAT appointment, it was fine (well I just had to change my personal ones for others because I put friends and apparently that dosen't count so I put my friend's parents and it was all good). 

So yes, from my experience, you can put academic or personal ones there too. 

For the other question I'm not sure. I'm 19 so I had to put people I have known since I was at least 16 (since it's either ''known for 5 years'' or ''since 16'' whichever came first, which for me was the second), I put a lady from a summer job I had at 16. It was only two months but I technically have ''known'' her since I was 16.


----------



## Zerkaiya

shadesofgreen said:
			
		

> I wondered that too, but they asked me for 4 references (academic, Professional and personal) and the only place they talked about references on the document is the ''Professional references'' section. I ended up putting 1 Professional one, 1 academic one and 2 personal one on that section. When I gave my papers to the recruiter at my CFAT appointment, it was fine (well I just had to change my personal ones for others because I put friends and apparently that dosen't count so I put my friend's parents and it was all good).
> 
> So yes, from my experience, you can put academic or personal ones there too.
> 
> For the other question I'm not sure. I'm 19 so I had to put people I have known since I was at least 16 (since it's either ''known for 5 years'' or ''since 16'' whichever came first, which for me was the second), I put a lady from a summer job I had at 16. It was only two months but I technically have ''known'' her since I was 16.



Thanks for the quick reply SoG, I had assumed that was the case (otherwise why would they define the other two types of references).  See,  I am 21 at this point in time, have not been in school for a couple years and the job I currently work I've held for a little less than 29 months (2 years, 4 months, X days). I've read on these forums before that they look for a accumulated 5 years between all contacts, but that is nowhere outlined in the document I believe. This leaves me having to exempt any professional reference, which is not desireable  ???


----------



## shadesofgreen

Zerkaiya said:
			
		

> Thanks for the quick reply SoG, I had assumed that was the case (otherwise why would they define the other two types of references).  See,  I am 21 at this point in time, have not been in school for a couple years and the job I currently work I've held for a little less than 29 months (2 years, 4 months, X days). I've read on these forums before that they look for a accumulated 5 years between all contacts, but that is nowhere outlined in the document I believe. This leaves me having to exempt any professional reference, which is not desireable  ???



Well like I said, I worked with my professional reference for 2 months when was 16 and not ''since I was 16'' and it was fine. Maybe it's the same for as you. If you put someone you worked with that was at least 5 years ago it might be fine even if you didn't work with them for 5 years. You technically know who they. Try to think of someone you remember getting along with. But yeah, you should call the recruiting center near you to ask about it to be sure.

But A lot of 18-17 year olds that apply have not had a job (or at least not one they can use as a reference since they only had a job recently maybe) so I don't think that it will matter too much. At least try to find some good academic reference. I used a lady from my high school (she took care of school activities and was in charge of the committee I was in). I don't speak to her anymore so it wasn't a case of ''bn in contact with her since I was 16). Still worked though.


----------



## Zerkaiya

shadesofgreen said:
			
		

> Well like I said, I worked with my professional reference for 2 months when was 16 and not ''since I was 16'' and it was fine. Maybe it's the same for as you. If you put someone you worked with that was at least 5 years ago it might be fine even if you didn't work with them for 5 years. You technically know who they. Try to think of someone you remember getting along with. But yeah, you should call the recruiting center near you to ask about it to be sure.
> 
> But A lot of 18-17 year olds that apply have not had a job (or at least not one they can use as a reference since they only had a job recently maybe) so I don't think that it will matter too much. At least try to find some good academic reference. I used a lady from my high school (she took care of school activities and was in charge of the committee I was in). I don't speak to her anymore so it wasn't a case of ''bn in contact with her since I was 16). Still worked though.



Thanks for the advice, I will call the local recruiting centre or go in person tomorrow. Hopefully they can clarify this for me as I am quite anxious to get this thing started.


----------



## Cole J

New member here, and I have a couple questions im not sure have been answered. 
To note I have not started my application yet, just trying to do as much research as i can. But in regards to Employment References and Employment history, what if you never had an employer?. I've always lived and worked on the family farm and still farm till this day, so Ive always been self employed. Anyone have experience with this? would i just put down that ive always been self employed, and what if they say I need and employer as a reference if i never had one?

As far as friends as references can i use people that dont live in Canada.. people that live in the United States? Cause there are a couple people i know down there that ive met though online sources and known them for close to  6 years and know me really well personally..  the one told me i could use them as a reference but i dont know if i could. Would they be acceptable.?..

All this reference stuff is my biggest worry cause i dont know many people to use.. any teachers are gonna be hard to track down if they even remember me, as i been out of school for almost 9 years. 
As far as friends most all of them that knew me well enough have moved on to diff places and i lost contact with them, i wasnt the most social kid in school so friends i had weren't really that close to friends so after school stuff quickly faded for me.. I just been keeping to myself the last 9 years and just know people as acquaintances, but not well enough to use as a reference.. dont know my neighbors well enough either, or not sure i if i want to use them, not cause i dont think they would be a good reference but for reasons of everyone out here are really big gossip type people and I just don want everyone in the entire community and countryside for miles around knowing my business.. 

and im a bit confused as what considered family.? I understand i cant use my sister in law for example.. but could i use someone in her side of the family, like one of her parents relatives as a reference as they not a blood relative?..


----------



## Pusser

Employment history is exactly that.  Where were you employed?  If you were self-employed, then that is your answer.  You just have to say what you were doing and where.  Thousands of applicants to the CF have never had a job (i.e. folks just out of high school), so don't sweat it.  Students just say they were students (and where they were going to school).

As far as I know, your references need to be in Canada, but I'm not entirely sure about that.


----------



## JoeDos

So curious question... I know that the reliability screening requires you to have 5 personal references that you have known for 5 years, or since you were 16 I haven't really started working until last year and the whole 5 references may be an issue.. Can one still get through the reliability screening with only 1 or 2 references?


----------



## DAA

JoeDos said:
			
		

> So curious question... I know that the reliability screening requires you to have 5 personal references that you have known for 5 years, or since you were 16 I haven't really started working until last year and the whole 5 references may be an issue.. Can one still get through the reliability screening with only 1 or 2 references?



Chances are your CFRC will "push" the issue and insist you provide references within the guidelines.

What about teachers, coaches or even a neighbour/friend or two who you may have done some odd jobs for.  Just be sure to ask them in advance if they wouldn't mind you using them as a reference.


----------



## OblivionKnight

JoeDos said:
			
		

> So curious question... I know that the reliability screening requires you to have 5 personal references that you have known for 5 years, or since you were 16 I haven't really started working until last year and the whole 5 references may be an issue.. Can one still get through the reliability screening with only 1 or 2 references?



Does the form you have state that you need to provide 5 personal or professional references? The reason I ask is because last year when I applied, I used 5 of my friends as references. However this year, I was told that they are more strict and that you need professional references instead; friends cannot be used. The new form I was given is "CFRGHQ/R3 Stds - PVF 2012". I'm also having a very difficult time finding professional references who I've known for 5 years...


----------



## George Wallace

OblivionKnight said:
			
		

> Does the form you have state that you need to provide 5 personal or professional references? The reason I ask is because last year when I applied, I used 5 of my friends as references. However this year, I was told that they are more strict and that you need professional references instead; friends cannot be used. The new form I was given is "CFRGHQ/R3 Stds - PVF 2012". I'm also having a very difficult time finding professional references who I've known for 5 years...



Please READ the instructions.  Follow the instructions.   If the instructions ask for three (3) references who have known you for X number or years or since you were 16 years of age, and not an immediate relative; one (1) reference who was one of your teachers; and one (1) reference who was your employer; or whatever the instructions may ask, then that is what is expected of you to answer.   This is not complicated.  Follow the instructions you were given.   You are applying for employment in an organization that 'demands' that you be able to follow instructions.  If you can not follow the most basic of instructions, you will face extreme difficulty succeding in this organization.

KISS


----------



## shadesofgreen

JoeDos said:
			
		

> So curious question... I know that the reliability screening requires you to have 5 personal references that you have known for 5 years, or since you were 16 I haven't really started working until last year and the whole 5 references may be an issue.. Can one still get through the reliability screening with only 1 or 2 references?



Have you recieved the papers to fill in yet? Because I saw that on the website it said 5 references but when the recruiter sent me the paper to fill in (so I could bring them to my CFAT) the paper only asked for 4 references (could be different for you though). I used one Professional reference (the coordinator at the sumemr camp I worked at when i was 16), an academic one (the lady at my school that takes care of school activity and that was in charge of the student life committee) and a parent of two of my friends (I had put two friends and they told me I couln't use them but I could put their parents).
A Profesional references is preferable but I don't think you absolutely have to. I mean if you didn't have a job then you didn't have a job. 

You could use teachers, coach, someone in charge of something you were part of at school, your friend's parents apparently, a family friend...
But yeah, don't just put 1-2, if they ask for 5 put 5 dosen't have to be job related.


----------



## JoeDos

shadesofgreen said:
			
		

> Have you recieved the papers to fill in yet? Because I saw that on the website it said 5 references but when the recruiter sent me the paper to fill in (so I could bring them to my CFAT) the paper only asked for 4 references (could be different for you though). I used one Professional reference (the coordinator at the sumemr camp I worked at when i was 16), an academic one (the lady at my school that takes care of school activity and that was in charge of the student life committee) and a parent of two of my friends (I had put two friends and they told me I couln't use them but I could put their parents).
> A Profesional references is preferable but I don't think you absolutely have to. I mean if you didn't have a job then you didn't have a job.
> 
> You could use teachers, coach, someone in charge of something you were part of at school, your friend's parents apparently, a family friend...
> But yeah, don't just put 1-2, if they ask for 5 put 5 dosen't have to be job related.



No I have yet to actually receive the forms I am just merely trying to prepare everything so that the application goes smooth, and unfortunately it seems as though teachers will be a tough one considering when I was a student I wasn't the greatest, and I actually have moved around a fair amount. I only really have 2 credible references.


----------



## RSipkes

Hey everyone, I know this have most likely already been answer but when I tried to search for it this came up "Due to high stress on the server, the search function has been automatically and temporarily disabled. Please try again in a short while." I cannot wait, I need to know now. I am in a bit of a situation.

I needed to know if for the references you supply need to write a paragraph about you to send to a recruiter or if the recruiter just contacts them asking questions about you. Please, anyone who went through the process help me. Thank you


----------



## dangerboy

Sipkes said:
			
		

> Hey everyone, I know this have most likely already been answer but when I tried to search for it this came up "Due to high stress on the server, the search function has been automatically and temporarily disabled. Please try again in a short while." I cannot wait, I need to know now. I am in a bit of a situation.
> 
> I needed to know if for the references you supply need to write a paragraph about you to send to a recruiter or if the recruiter just contacts them asking questions about you. Please, anyone who went through the process help me. Thank you



Here is the thread on references: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/12763.0.html, you should find all the answers about references in there.


MERGED WITH "SUPERTHREAD"
BRUCE


----------



## RSipkes

Thank you so much!


----------



## Badner

REFERENCE QUESTIONS

Hey guys,

So I am in the process of applying for NCM reserve infantry. I filled out the standard reference section, with my 5 professional references yada yada yada, however due to my being a dual citizen (UK) I had to fill out an additional "long screening" security form. 

I was born in Canada, and have resided here al my life, however I hold dual citizenship to the UK through my father, as well as two passports. 

My question is: How much extra time does this usually add to the aplication process, and does anyone have any horror stories of beurocratic hassel as a result of this? 

Any info about the additional process is appreciated. Thank you.


----------



## AndrewK

Hello, 

I just want ask one question regarding the references for my reserve centre, It ask's for 5 references and one that knows you for atleast 5 years, could I have 5 references and all of them are teachers? and atleast one of them I known for 4 years? because I dont know any of them for 5 years.


----------



## George Wallace

AndrewK said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> I just want ask one question regarding the references for my reserve centre, It ask's for 5 references and one that knows you for atleast 5 years, could I have 5 references and all of them are teachers? and atleast one of them I known for 4 years? because I dont know any of them for 5 years.



Please READ this thread.  You will find your answer.

Please READ the instructions on the document you were given.  They are Clear and Concise.  Black and White.  Simple.  

If you are incapable of reading and following instructions, you may find that your acceptance into the Canadian Armed Forces will be an impossible challenge to meet.


----------



## Zerkaiya

Hey guys,

There were simply too many posts to wade through to see if my question was answered prior to posting, so sorry in advance to any of those I may offend ;D I simply need some clarification on one of the bullets found within the DND Personal Data Verification form. The bullet reads "Copies of identification must be included with you completed forms. Ensure that the copies you provide are clear and readable." Now, this may be silly, but my girlfriend asked if they were referring to the references enclosed in the forms. I simply thought this meant a copy of your Driver's License, Health Card, Birth Certificate etc. and thought it would be silly to ask for a copy of identification for the reference ('Hey boss, can I get a copy of your driver's license? Thanks') but I simply wanted to verify that this was not the case and they were simply asking for copies of identification for you only.

Zerk


----------



## George Wallace

Zerkaiya said:
			
		

> Hey guys,
> 
> There were simply too many posts to wade through to see if my question was answered prior to posting, so sorry in advance to any of those I may offend ;D I simply need some clarification on one of the bullets found within the DND Personal Data Verification form. The bullet reads "Copies of identification must be included with you completed forms. Ensure that the copies you provide are clear and readable." Now, this may be silly, but my girlfriend asked if they were referring to the references enclosed in the forms. I simply thought this meant a copy of your Driver's License, Health Card, Birth Certificate etc. and thought it would be silly to ask for a copy of identification for the reference ('Hey boss, can I get a copy of your driver's license? Thanks') but I simply wanted to verify that this was not the case and they were simply asking for copies of identification for you only.
> 
> Zerk



Thanks for being so lazy as not to search and asking someone else to.  You will not go far with your lack of initiative. 

Your lack of English comprehension is showing and your going to face serious problems if you can not follow the most simple of instructions.



> The bullet reads "Copies of identification must be included with you completed forms. Ensure that the copies you provide are clear and readable."




Identification.  

Keep It Stupid Simple.  (KISS)  Bring in the forms of IDENTIFICATION that they ask for, and they will make copies.  If you bring in copies, ensure you have the originals on hand as well for verification.  KISS.


----------



## Zerkaiya

LoL, I concur that there are simply way too many posts to wade through especially since a majority of the posts are kind of obsolete being that many of them are from prior 2010, let alone this year. Anyways, I also had difficulty finding references as I am 22 years of age atm (so calling up a high school teacher doesn't exactly work unless you have kept in contact with them for 6 years). I could not even use my current doctor because I had a pediatrician prior to age of majority so he's only known me for a little over 4 now. I've also ONLY held my current job for 2.5 years, so I could not use my employer as a professional reference either. I am lucky enough to have been volunteering at the same place for 5 years straight and I am very good friends with my supervisor. But , my other references were all neighbours and a friend. The latter of which I worked with during a job in high school. By the end of the day, however, it is not an easy feat to acquire your references, though it is much easier if you are a recent high school graduate. Also, the forms I was given had asked for FOUR (4) references and NOT five. In addition, the Sarge who processed me initially told me to STAY AWAY FROM FRIENDS AND FAMILY. When my form was looked over, he said that my two references would most likely have been declined if they had not had any work/volunteer affiliation. Hopefully this answers questions and avoids having people to cycle through the numerous posts of this superthread. Also, just as a reference, I am performing the application process in Toronto

Zerk

EDIT: Grammar


----------



## Johngalt24

So not sure what to do, but here it is:

two of my references which I work with, were away at the Maple syrup shack for a week.  Same week they called to use as my reference.  Unfortunately, reference one didnt answer because he didn't know the number.  Reference two just didn't see the call.

Reference one wrote the number to call on a piece of paper, and then lost the paper.  Reference two's phone deleted the voice mail because it had been 3 days by the time he got back to they city and in cell range.  

I've used both of these references before, so it wasn't that they didn't want to be used.

Went into CFRC Ottawa, and was told to wait for Guarda to contact me about the references.  Is this true?  Do they  not try calling a second time?


----------



## Cardiomegaly1

So just thought I would provide a helpful update to those people who are having trouble finding references that have known them for five years each. I spoke to my file manager the other day, and although the forms have not been updated to reflect the change, the new and current policy is that your references have to have known you for a **combined** five years.

Hope this helps anyone.


----------



## Nick1911

Cardiomegaly1 said:
			
		

> So just thought I would provide a helpful update to those people who are having trouble finding references that have known them for five years each. I spoke to my file manager the other day, and although the forms have not been updated to reflect the change, the new and current policy is that your references have to have known you for a **combined** five years.
> 
> Hope this helps anyone.




Can anyone confirm this?


----------



## George Wallace

Nick1911 said:
			
		

> Cardiomegaly1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So just thought I would provide a helpful update to those people who are having trouble finding references that have known them for five years each. I spoke to my file manager the other day, and although the forms have not been updated to reflect the change, the new and current policy is that your references have to have known you for a **combined** five years.
> 
> Hope this helps anyone.
> 
> 
> 
> Can anyone confirm this?
Click to expand...


At the looks from what he posted, he is not clear on the matter and has probably misinterpreted what he was told.  It would be advisable to confirm with your CFRC what is in fact correct.  

I would interpret this as each of your References should have known you for five years, but not necessarily the last five years.  As I had moved to a new city and none of my acquaintances there knew me for more than a few months, I had to use references from my former residence who knew me for over five years.  

Five people who knew me for one year each, and totalling five years amongst all of them, being acceptable as filling the requirement for references does not make sense.


----------



## Cardiomegaly1

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Can anyone confirm this?
> 
> 
> At the looks from what he posted, he is not clear on the matter and has probably misinterpreted what he was told.  It would be advisable to confirm with your CFRC what is in fact correct.
> 
> I would interpret this as each of your References should have known you for five years, but not necessarily the last five years.  As I had moved to a new city and none of my acquaintances there knew me for more than a few months, I had to use references from my former residence who knew me for over five years.
> 
> Five people who knew me for one year each, and totalling five years amongst all of them, being acceptable as filling the requirement for references does not make sense.



I definitely didn't misinterpret it. I confirmed this with 3 different people at the CFRC-Edmonton. Two file managers and one recruiter all said the same thing. They all suggested that you use people that have known you for different lengths of time (eg one who knew you 1 year, one who knew you 2 years, etc...), and that the minimum summed total is 5 years. Taking it to the extreme end of the minimum requirements would be 3 people who knew you for 1 year and 1 who knew you for 2 years (since they only ask for four references now). But who ever got anywhere in life by barely exceeding the minimum requirements? It's tailored to accommodate students a little better now, since they have intermittent work histories and you generally don't get to know your professors well in a large university. Don't take my word for it, call your CFRC and confirm if you like.


----------



## Treemoss

For me I just put two people down for five years, and had a couple three-four year that were supervisors. I did end up putting a couple one-two year ones because they related most to the work I'm trying to get in to. When I spoke to my RC about it before I submitted he sounded adamant that it every be known for five years. But quite honestly -_- the best references you get come from post secondary and after.

I have a references from a doctor, two nurses, and both my EMS partners. Unfortunately they were under one year so I couldn't add them.. so I handed them on from a seperate piece of paper but I doubt they'll use it.


----------



## carefree

I included four references in my application.

In my case being a military wife, we move fairly frequently. Being out of the workforce for the previous five years (raising a family) I didn't have current work references, although I have experience in my field. I did receive a phone call from Garda asking me who each of my references were but they processed it all smoothly. My references called me the day of my interview to let me know they had been contacted.

I used a former landlord, two currently serving members in senior positions, and an  immediate neighbour.

I did this all back before Christmas last year. Garda did say the younger applicants were struggling with finding suitable people, so I knew my situation was not unique.


----------



## George Wallace

carefree said:
			
		

> I included four references in my application.
> 
> In my case being a military wife, we move fairly frequently. Being out of the workforce for the previous five years (raising a family) I didn't have current work references, although I have experience in my field.
> I did this all back before Christmas last year. Garda did say the younger applicants were struggling with finding suitable people, so I knew my situation was not unique.



Once again......Where does it say anywhere in the instructions about your "references" that they have to be current?  If you held a job for five years, six years ago, there is nothing stopping you from using your former employer, manager, or coworkers as references.

The same can be said for any of your other references.  If you had a neighbour, when you were growing up, who knew you for five or more years, but you have since moved away, there is nothing stopping you from using them as a reference.   If you had a teacher who coached you on your school sports team and/or taught you for several years, they are just as eligible, as would be a minister of the Church/Synagog/Mosque; or a Scout/Girl Guide leader, etc.  

Why do some of you have to over complicate a simple request?


----------



## carefree

I filled it out exactly as described, because I am quite capable of reading. That said when Garda called they wanted current references, and ONLY for work ones.  I explained mine were obsolete (healthcare has a high turnover in management retiring)I played telephone tag for two days between them and the recruiting office to confirm my references were indeed fine. I did my part, but if they can't make up their mind on policy, we can hardly be faulted for complicating issues when our t's are crossed correctly.

Recruiters said Personal refs were fine. Garda said they weren't acceptable. Two heads weren't matching up.


----------



## GraemeCaughill

The reference section of my application was as straight forward as any request for references has been i.e. jobs in the past and even college. look at the bottom of your resume..(if you have one) and im sure that atleast one of your references there would work.
its very simple, you're applying for  a job, a very good job!, they need to verify your loyalty and ability to follow orders. i am sure that everyone can come up with several people who have known you for an extended period of time.
i put down three names that have known me for 5 years each, and one that had known me for just under 3 years.

good luck, and read everything over carefully you are given with the CF. its as much a test as it is important to fill out.


----------



## archanist

Hi there,
    I've been pulling out my hair trying to find my references and almost have the four asked for on the sheet. I'm rather worried however that due to timezones and availability there may be issues in connecting. I really don't have any other options than the people I have so far and it's proving difficult to even find the fourth as I moved between 5 different middle/highschools. (I'm 20 now) As well as this in the past 2 years I've moved 4 times each to a new town/city... Anyways enough of that explanation as to why I have no other choices in my references...

I had a look through the forum already and I didn't see an answer to my question.
How do CRFC work with Timezones?
One of my references (Coach) Now resides in the UK and they are 8 hours ahead.
As well as this another one of my references (Once again a sports coach) Cannot be reached until it is 10:00 PM EDT due to his job.

With reference requirements getting stricter and stricter my chance of getting in seems slimmer and slimmer...


----------



## BMDS

My references are from Portugal, which has the same timezone as the UK. There was no problem in reaching them. They emailed them first asking what availability they had and then worked from there. There were no issues at all.
Hope that helps.


----------



## Kamikaze1655

Hey guys, I was wondering if you could chose to decide if you want the recruiters to contact your previous employer. The thing is, I used to work at McDonalds and then just never showed up again. Should I include it or completely omit that? Secondly, do I have to list all four references?


Much appreciated,


----------



## The_Falcon

Asked and answered multiple times in this helpful and stickied thread that is 24 pages long.  Your laziness will get you far in life  :

http://army.ca/forums/threads/12763.0

Locked


----------



## jim11333

Hello:

I have a question regarding the length of refrence checks. I understand the forces sub-contract this section out. 

I am being processed for AVN Tech and i did my medical and interview April 22nd. My workplace has been contacted for a "work history check"

My question to you is:

It has been over 2 months since my last contact and none of my refrences have yet been contacted. Should i be concerned about my file being misplaced? Should i call the company that does these checks and ask?

I was informed by my Career Counselor that i am a strong candadate because of my red seal trade as an Automotive Service Tech. He said the checks take 4-6 weeks. I am just getting worried because nothing has happened now for some time...

Please let me know your opinion.

Thank you

James Bickford


----------



## rjfreeman

James,

Do not concern yourself on how the security company conducts reference checks. Just because you provided a reference does not mean that they are going to contact them directly. If there was an issue, your Recruiting Detachment would have contacted you.

Stay in contact with your detachment (at least every 30 days).


----------



## jim11333

It just seems odd that i was told 4-6 weeks and its been over 2 months... It has me worried because I'm almost done and i really do not want any unnecessary delays. 
Thank you for your input i will call my recruitment center next week and ask them what is going on.


----------



## Captain Mark

As mentioned by Master Seaman Robert, the security company may not directly contact your references. Your detachment isn't going to call you exactly after six weeks to let you know how the security check went, unless there was an issue. For all you know, the check is most likely done. You can call or visit your detachment in order to get an update on your file.


----------



## jim11333

Fair enough.

I will call them next week.

Thank you


----------



## Nightx

I was in the same boat a few months ago after my last interview in February. I waited about 2 months, then called and asked for a status update. They informed me they were waiting on the background check.. told it could take anywhere from 2 weeks, to 2 years depending. One of my references were contacted, and I finally got my offer 2 weeks ago. So, my advice, keep calling every few weeks for an update and be VERY patient. It will pay off in the end.


----------



## MikeD

I had to do another interview because it has been over a year since I first applied for Pilot, and the interviewer said that I needed to re-submit my references. OK easy enough. But he seemed also to say that all 4 had to be professional references. No where can I find any criteria for references other than one has to have known them for 5 or more consecutive years, and that they cannot be family. He seemed to be saying that they can't be friends. He mentioned some policy change as well. I am quite sure he is mistaken but it has me very worried.


----------



## niftynicolemarie

MikeD said:
			
		

> I had to do another interview because it has been over a year since I first applied for Pilot, and the interviewer said that I needed to re-submit my references. OK easy enough. But he seemed also to say that all 4 had to be professional references. No where can I find any criteria for references other than one has to have known them for 5 or more consecutive years, and that they cannot be family. He seemed to be saying that they can't be friends. He mentioned some policy change as well. I am quite sure he is mistaken but it has me very worried.


It has changed, unfortunately. Four references who were former supervisors or 'leaders' in your life. No friends, no family, no same level coworkers. I had a heck of a time finding mine as well. They do not have to be recent, as long as they knew you more than five years, but I found that former teachers who I had not been in touch with in the last eight years weren't interested in being my reference.
If you've had the same doctor for a while, attend a church or something, you can use those people. 
Good luck.


----------



## MikeD

niftynicolemarie said:
			
		

> It has changed, unfortunately. Four references who were former supervisors or 'leaders' in your life. No friends, no family, no same level coworkers. I had a heck of a time finding mine as well. They do not have to be recent, as long as they knew you more than five years, but I found that former teachers who I had not been in touch with in the last eight years weren't interested in being my reference.
> If you've had the same doctor for a while, attend a church or something, you can use those people.
> Good luck.



Thank you for the reply. Strange that the instructions on their forms are contrary to what they want.


----------



## TJC

This is what was mentioned in the Personal Data Verification form I received:
*"Professional References: These persons are former supervisors, managers or your direct report to."*

I've worked in the same place for the past 5 years, so can my references be my CURRENT boss, managers, supervisors or anyone else that gives me work to do at the office?


----------



## cryco

The recruiter I'm dealing with told me that as long as the SUM of the years my references have known me is 5 years, it's ok.
I have 4 professional references that know me for 7-12 years each and he said only one of them would have been enough (yes, I'm an older applicant)


----------



## TJC

Thx.  Another thing that's a bit confusing, the first page of the form describes 3 types of references: Professional, Educational, Personal.  But the actual section where I write down my references is labelled as "Professional References".  Does that mean I can't put down Educational or Personal at all?


----------



## cryco

TJC said:
			
		

> I've worked in the same place for the past 5 years, so can my references be my CURRENT boss, managers, supervisors or anyone else that gives me work to do at the office?



Yes. I did that and there was no problem.
As for the professional reference section, I believe that's the CAF's way of telling you they prefer professional references. Insert educational and personal references only if you have insufficient professional references. Give your recruiter a call and ask him/her if they need a sum of 5 years of references, or 5 years per reference.
Even if it's a SUM, it wouldn't hurt to add more references.
I tell you this from the limited experience I have dealing with my recruiter; I spoke to him a few times over the phone and saw him in person once.


----------



## Alderson

When I filled out my application two years ago (I was originally going for Reserves, switched to Regular force)
I only had to use four references.

I put down two family friends, and two friends due to me not having a single professional or educational reference that I knew for 5+ years.

I realize I messed up now, but the security company is already in the process of doing the background check.

What will happen when (I assume) they call me to tell me I can't use those certain references? Will I be told to find new references, or will I have to restart my application from the beginning?


----------



## KerryBlue

I doubt they would restart your whole application. They would more then likely ask for a new set of references which qualify.


----------



## JoeDos

I am hoping someone here has my answer. I have to fill out new security clearance forms, and this one is a little different then the first two I filled out during my application. For character references it wants 3 and a neighbourhood reference, I as well as my family don't even know our neighbours. Would I be fine if I were just to put N/A?


----------



## runormal

They asked for it, so they want it.

I am by no means an expert but what I did was use someone I knew who lived in the same town (<1000 Population) as me a few blocks away. I didn't have any problems.

If you don't know your neighbours I'd recommend that use someone that lives fairly close by to you. 

Or you could call your CFRC and see what they advise.


----------



## PanaEng

2nd above post and would add that if you are being screened for TS that they will try to talk with (some) one around where you live regardless of who you indicate


----------



## Flatliner

Just going to add in here, as I have this exact form sitting on my desk to my left. The section AlphaBravo is asking about is Section M of the Security Clearance Form which says in the instructions:

Level I and II must complete sections A to J inclusive and P.
Level III must complete all sections.


So they might actually be able to skip that section, depending on their trade.


----------



## Alderson

I have a problem...
I just received a call from the Recruiting Centre telling me that all my references are invalid (I've discussed this in the past and knew this day would come) and that I need to pick out four new references.

The problem is... I don't have four references to use, I only have one person who isn't a relative that has known me for 5+ years.

What's recommended that I do?


----------



## Moore

Alderson said:
			
		

> I have a problem...
> I just received a call from the Recruiting Centre telling me that all my references are invalid (I've discussed this in the past and knew this day would come) and that I need to pick out four new references.
> 
> The problem is... I don't have four references to use, I only have one person who isn't a relative that has known me for 5+ years.
> 
> What's recommended that I do?



For me my references were allowed to add up
To a total of 5 years. Try teachers? Bosses? Doctors?


----------



## Alderson

This is what's on the e-file that I need to fill out again:

Provide the following information for four (4) valid references whom we can contact. Reference checks will be made and some or all of the following information will be confirmed: your honesty, reliability and maturity; your performance under stress; your ability to get along with supervisors and co-workers; your personal strengths and weaknesses. The references provided must be able to provide information covering the last five (5) years or to age 16 (whichever comes first).


I'm going to give the recruitment centre a call today just to clarify if each reference needs to have known me for 5+ years, or if they can be added up.

The problem right now is, I don't have educational references that I've known for 5+ years, nor have I been in contact with any of my teachers since I was in school. I've also never kept in contact with any professional references after my job, nor was I ever at one job for 5+ years.

Right now, the only two I can think of is my doctor, and my dentist.


----------



## Moore

Alderson said:
			
		

> This is what's on the e-file that I need to fill out again:
> 
> Provide the following information for four (4) valid references whom we can contact. Reference checks will be made and some or all of the following information will be confirmed: your honesty, reliability and maturity; your performance under stress; your ability to get along with supervisors and co-workers; your personal strengths and weaknesses. The references provided must be able to provide information covering the last five (5) years or to age 16 (whichever comes first).
> 
> 
> I'm going to give the recruitment centre a call today just to clarify if each reference needs to have known me for 5+ years, or if they can be added up.
> 
> The problem right now is, I don't have educational references that I've known for 5+ years, nor have I been in contact with any of my teachers since I was in school. I've also never kept in contact with any professional references after my job, nor was I ever at one job for 5+ years.
> 
> Right now, the only two I can think of is my doctor, and my dentist.



I'm done High School but I went back a month ago to get two teachers references whom I've known each for 5 years. My other two references were two of my Assistant Managers that I've only known for 2 years each. If you want references, just phone or go to your High School or previous place of employment and get references you think will say good things about you. You're not going to get any further if you don't try getting your references.


----------



## Alderson

I'm thinking I may have the four references... Would these four be valid -

Doctor
Dentist
Hair cutter/Barber

And for my last one - I use to play paintball for 10+years and would always go to this one paintball place to play there. I also began to work there as of this year, would I be able to use him as a reference since I've been going there for 5+ years and have talked to him before I even began working there?


----------



## George Wallace

Alderson said:
			
		

> I'm thinking I may have the four references... Would these four be valid -
> 
> Doctor
> Dentist
> Hair cutter/Barber
> 
> And for my last one - I use to play paintball for 10+years and would always go to this one paintball place to play there. I also began to work there as of this year, would I be able to use him as a reference since I've been going there for 5+ years and have talked to him before I even began working there?



According to the instructions on the forms; if none of them are relatives, then you are good to go.


----------



## Moore

Alderson said:
			
		

> I'm thinking I may have the four references... Would these four be valid -
> 
> Doctor
> Dentist
> Hair cutter/Barber
> 
> And for my last one - I use to play paintball for 10+years and would always go to this one paintball place to play there. I also began to work there as of this year, would I be able to use him as a reference since I've been going there for 5+ years and have talked to him before I even began working there?



Yes, George Wallace is right and all of those references should be valid as they're not against anything on the form you have. If I were you I'd get them ASAP and get them handed in so you can move on with your process. It's a slow enough process so there's no sense in making it even longer. Good luck on your process.


----------



## Alderson

Thank you both for helping me out here.
One last question. I plan on using my dentist, but the problem is it's not like the dentist and I speak all that much. The only time we would talk is when I go get my teeth cleaned. 

Also, my doctor probably doesn't have an email address, is it okay to leave that part with a N/A through it?


----------



## Moore

Alderson said:
			
		

> Thank you both for helping me out here.
> One last question. I plan on using my dentist, but the problem is it's not like the dentist and I speak all that much. The only time we would talk is when I go get my teeth cleaned.
> 
> Also, my doctor probably doesn't have an email address, is it okay to leave that part with a N/A through it?



If it's possible try to find someone other than your Dentist then but if it's to hard just use your Dentist. Only 2/4 of my references had their emails put down, it's not really a big issue. I think it's only to get in contact with them if they can't get to the phone or something.


----------



## Rikes

Hey guys I finally got my CFAT scheduled for the 20th and received the email with documents and practice IQ tests (scored 115) so I'm not worried about the CFAT at all. My only problem is the 5 required professional references I am 22 i have gotten nothing but the bottom of the barrel for employment, so I have never held a job for more than 1 year and have always left on "kind of bad terms" I don't even have a personal doctor and I finished my high school diploma outside of highschool so no teacher that has known me for required amount of time. I have nothing to reference other than friends/family/old coworkers. So am i screwed or do i have options ?


----------



## Rikes

After reading through that thread i still have no reference that fits what is required but i noticed some people "got away" with referencing friends


----------



## Fpseelground

I am applying for a reserve unit for the army in bathurst nb and have received confirmation I am medically fit, passed my cfat and completed my interview but can't attend the enrollment ceremony because I have to get my background check and the nearest BMQ is set to start the 30th of January, only days away. I am wondering how long this background check will take.


----------



## DAA

Fpseelground said:
			
		

> I am applying for a reserve unit for the army in bathurst nb and have received confirmation I am medically fit, passed my cfat and completed my interview but can't attend the enrollment ceremony because I have to get my background check and the nearest BMQ is set to start the 30th of January, only days away. I am wondering how long this background check will take.



The background check is done as part of the processing of your application.  Turn around times are suppose to be not more than 14 days but it varies.

Follow-up with the Reserve Unit that you are trying to join and see if they have any updates for you.


----------



## George Wallace

:


READ:

1.  The Security Check/ Level Superthread- Check Here First;

2.  The Credit Check Superthread- Merged Topics;

3.  TIMINGS - ESTIMATED TIMES FOR_______________ ; and

4.  due to your lack of correct use of ENGLISH, The Importance of proper grammar on this forum AND in the CF.


----------



## mariomike

Fpseelground said:
			
		

> I am applying for a reserve unit for the army in bathurst nb and have received confirmation I am medically fit, passed my cfat and completed my interview but can't attend the enrollment ceremony because I have to get my background check and the nearest BMQ is set to start the 30th of January, only days away.



You started the "Medical hold" thread last night:
Medical hold  
http://milnet.ca/forums/threads/117641/post-1346945.html#msg1346945

"And as far as the recruitment office said, they only said to wait and they have no idea what so ever how long I'll have to wait."

Has your Medical status improved since last night?


----------



## Fpseelground

Yes I called today and they said I was medically fit, but I couldn't attend the enrollment ceremony on he Januray 22nd as I am waiting on my background check. Also the BMQ I am set to train in is supposed to start on the 30th of January, I'm wondering if I'll get the check done with and enrolled by the time the BMQ starts.


----------



## raoufhakam

I've finished and passed cfat, interview, medical and fitness over 10 months ago, and i've been checking with my local army reserve recruiting centre regulary and still waiting on my background check :/
As far as I was told by the recruiters is that background check could take longer if you were born outsidr Canada, have direct relatives abroad, haven't lived in Canada in the past 10 years. (When i visited the unit im applying for, a guy there told me his whole application process took 3.5 years because of that!)


----------



## DAA

Fpseelground said:
			
		

> Yes I called today and they said I was medically fit, but I couldn't attend the enrollment ceremony on he Januray 22nd as I am waiting on my background check. Also the BMQ I am set to train in is supposed to start on the 30th of January, I'm wondering if I'll get the check done with and enrolled by the time the BMQ starts.



Did you miss something?  ****--->  http://army.ca/forums/threads/117642/post-1346991.html#msg1346991

Or do I have to repeat it again?


----------



## Offstar1029

You could be in for a long wait I finished everything on October 22 2014. I've never left Canada, have no criminal record, and everything else that should make it go by fast... over 3 months later they still haven't finished the enhanced reliability screening. I know a guy who applied after I did his screening was done after a month and a half and went to BMQ at the start of January. And there's people who have been waiting longer then me. No one can give you an estimate on how long it will take it could be a month then again it could be 6 months. It all depends on how quickly they decide they want to work.


----------



## Pwegman

IF those friends know your since your 16 , you can put them . Other than that i think they really want professional reference . But the best person to answer that is for sure your recruiter .


----------



## secondchance

I was  self-employed some time. 
What about references for this type of employment history ?


----------



## Treemoss

Clients you've kept in contact with maybe?


----------



## methionine

I'm a bit confused about the 5 years requirement.

If I worked for a man for a period of 3 years, two years ago, does he count as an acceptable reference?


----------



## cryco

Yup, since that person now knows you for 5 years.


----------



## DAA

methionine said:
			
		

> I'm a bit confused about the 5 years requirement.
> 
> If I worked for a man for a period of 3 years, two years ago, does he count as an acceptable reference?



This seems to be a recurring problem, so I will try my best to shed some light on the topic.

The references which you provide as part of the Reliability Screening process, can be categorized as follows:

a.  Educational References: These persons are former or current teachers, professors, coaches, instructors or trainers;
b.  Professional References: These persons are former or current supervisors, managers, overseers, advisors, or employers; and
c.  Personal References: These persons can be a minister, clergyman, mentor, counsellor, community leader, etc.

You must provided "adequate" information to verify the three categories above.  "Adequate" information, constitutes "5-years" of verifiable information, therefore, you need to provide sufficient references, to cover 5 years for each of the required categories.  As an example, you can list a teacher from High School that you knew for 2 years and a sports coach whom you have known for 3 years.  (ie; 2+3=5).  For professional references you can use employers and "employment" can be paid or non-paid (ie; volunteer) activities.  Personal references are fairly straight forward.

It is much easier if your reference can fill the entire 5 years but in cases where they can't, you should try and provide additional references as well.  The MORE the BETTER!


----------



## DnentonSg

Is it a huge deal if some data is missing for references and workplace history? Just small things like email addresses and some of my references only provided a evening telephone number.


----------



## DAA

snasd17 said:
			
		

> Is it a huge deal if some data is missing for references and workplace history? Just small things like email addresses and some of my references only provided a evening telephone number.



Before using someone as a "reference", you should at least have their permission.  If they agree, then you need to obtain as much contact information as possible from them.  If the CF or it's contract agents aren't able to make contact with your reference(s), then it not only delays your processing but you just might be asked to provide different ones.


----------



## DnentonSg

DAA said:
			
		

> Before using someone as a "reference", you should at least have their permission.  If they agree, then you need to obtain as much contact information as possible from them.  If the CF or it's contract agents aren't able to make contact with your reference(s), then it not only delays your processing but you just might be asked to provide different ones.



I do have all my references permission, however for workplace history I'm unable to obtain my supervisors email address however I have their phone numbers, and two of my references were teachers so they decided not to provide their daytime numbers at work.


----------



## DAA

snasd17 said:
			
		

> I do have all my references permission, however for workplace history I'm unable to obtain my supervisors email address however I have their phone numbers, and two of my references were teachers so they decided not to provide their daytime numbers at work.



You should be okay.  Time will tell......


----------



## eharps

Hello all,

I did a quick search and didn't see an answer to my question, but if there is one and I missed it, please merge this thread.

For our references on the DND Personal Data Verification form we bring to the CFAT, do we have to know each of our four references for at least 5 years, or do our references have to cover the past 5 years total. I read the literature and the wording confused me, "Your references, *either individually or in combination*, must have known you for at least the last five continuous years..."

I do a lot of contract work and was am a previous student who didn't maintain a lot of contact with University professors, so I just want to make sure my references are valid.

Thanks guys,

eharps


----------



## rjfreeman

Hello Eharps

Thank you for your interest in the Canadian Armed Forces.

It is a combination of 5 continuous years. So as long as there is a continuous 5 year period total between all your references you should be fine.

Feel free to ask any other questions.


----------



## George Wallace

:

Merged.


----------



## eharps

George Wallace said:
			
		

> :
> 
> Merged.



Thanks George


----------



## George Wallace

eharps said:
			
		

> Thanks George



As site SEARCH is often not effective, best to use GOOGLE by typing in "army.ca, ________" and whatever keywords you are looking for in order to find answers to your questions quicker.


----------



## eharps

Thanks for the tip!


----------



## DAA

eharps said:
			
		

> Hello all,
> 
> I did a quick search and didn't see an answer to my question, but if there is one and I missed it, please merge this thread.
> 
> For our references on the DND Personal Data Verification form we bring to the CFAT, do we have to know each of our four references for at least 5 years, or do our references have to cover the past 5 years total. I read the literature and the wording confused me, "Your references, *either individually or in combination*, must have known you for at least the last five continuous years..."
> 
> I do a lot of contract work and was am a previous student who didn't maintain a lot of contact with University professors, so I just want to make sure my references are valid.



The answer to your question, is right on the front page of the form that you filled out.

http://cdn.forces.ca/_PDF2010/PersonalDataVerification.pdf

"Selecting your References:
A valid reference is defined as an adult (18 years of age or older) that knows you well enough to provide a worthwhile, fair and adequate assessment about your personal character. Members of the family or relatives, family friends, friends, neighbours, co-workers or peers are not considered valid references.
The references can be categorized as follows:
a. Educational References: these persons are former or current teachers, professors, coaches, instructors, or trainers;
b. Professional References: these persons are former or current supervisors, managers, overseers, advisors, or employers; and
c. Personal References: these persons can be a minister, clergyman, mentor, counsellor, community leader, etc.
Your references, either individually or in combination, must have known you for at least the last five (5) continuous years (or to age 16, whichever comes first). "

I also answered it, 5 posts above your original question   ----->  http://army.ca/forums/threads/12763/post-1355235.html#msg1355235


----------



## mikegf6

Hey, 
So I completed my CFAT today and was handed the DND form to refill my information regarding my references. For my last reference however, I accidentally put five years because the rest of my references I have known for 5 years so I wrote it in all columns for number of years I have known the person. I have actually known them for only 2.5 years, is there anyway to adjust it or change it? will this affect the process? I already handed it to my recruiter and he booked my medical and interview. I have three educational references and one professional in which the professional one is the reference that I've only known for 2.5 years.


----------



## DAA

mikegf6 said:
			
		

> Hey,
> So I completed my CFAT today and was handed the DND form to refill my information regarding my references. For my last reference however, I accidentally put five years because the rest of my references I have known for 5 years so I wrote it in all columns for number of years I have known the person. I have actually known them for only 2.5 years, is there anyway to adjust it or change it? will this affect the process? I already handed it to my recruiter and he booked my medical and interview. I have three educational references and one professional in which the professional one is the reference that I've only known for 2.5 years.



You're asking us?  Why not ask the person who you gave the forms to?  Or not ask anyone at all and wait for them to ask you?


----------



## mikegf6

Within the DND form it states, "Your references will be contacted shortly after your form is submitted." Therefore, does that mean they ACTUALLY contacted them right away or do I still have time? My main question is if they wont take that mistake lightly of writing 5 years down


----------



## DAA

mikegf6 said:
			
		

> Within the DND form it states, "Your references will be contacted shortly after your form is submitted." Therefore, does that mean they ACTUALLY contacted them right away or do I still have time? My main question is if they wont take that mistake lightly of writing 5 years down



Give them a call.  They don't usually use those forms, let alone start contacting references, until after your medical results have been approved.   But stranger things have happened.


----------



## mikegf6

Thank you, also one more question, do they book your fitness test because my friend was told to just go on the day they are doing it, (he was given date and time verbally) and basically told him to just show up? Should I show up or just wait for them to approach me and book it. I have already done my CFAT and my interview and medical have been booked. Still waiting on fitness test


----------



## DAA

mikegf6 said:
			
		

> Thank you, also one more question, do they book your fitness test because my friend was told to just go on the day they are doing it, (he was given date and time verbally) and basically told him to just show up? Should I show up or just wait for them to approach me and book it. I have already done my CFAT and my interview and medical have been booked. Still waiting on fitness test



The fitness test is ONLY administered if you are applying for the Reserve Force.  If you are applying for the Regular Force, you will be administered the fitness test (FORCE Test) during your first week at BMQ.

*** - for Reserve Force applicants, the FORCE Test is now administered prior to writing the CFAT.


----------



## jonathancharrier

Good day, 
OK so I applied to the cf well over a year ago but had some old debt that was holding me back. Everything was done, background check, cfat, interview , ect.  My most recent contact with the recruiter was about 2 weeks ago. They said they would have to conduct another background check on me. Any idea how much longer this would take? Or is there anyone out there in a similar situation ?


----------



## JoeDos

Though I have secret clearance from before I released in Feb, I reapplied to the Reserves after releasing and they told me I have to do a background check again, I believe I'm in week 3 of them doing it. It takes time.


----------



## DevilsBrigade

I am graduating from high school this year and I have applied ROTP. Since I have lived and I have immediate relatives living outside Canada, I was told to go through a background check before booking an interview. The recruiting officer sent me 3 forms to fill in but I was instructed to only send him 2 out of 3 forms. The officer also told me that the I will need to fill in the security clearance form(330-60e) with him so I am not required to do it  now. I have completed and send the 2 forms in mid-March and I am still waiting for a reply. I contacted the recruiting officer in April and he said my background check was still processing. 

Questions

1. Since I will not remain in Canada in summer, should I contact the recruiting officer about my situation?

2. Should I send the third form(330-60e)? (It confuses me because some emails tell me to send it but some say not to)

3. If I need to contact the recruiting centre through emails, which info do I need to provide for verification of my identity?


----------



## Master Corporal Steven

Good day DevilsBrigade,

Questions on criminal records background checks have been asked and answered in depth on this form. Ensure that you conduct a better prior search before posting the same question that has already been asked to find your answer.

I have copied and paste the read first post that you skipped before posting your question so you may be informed of the rules regarding the questions to be asked on this form. Maintain contact with the recruiting center processing your application and advise them of your situation as you will need to update your contact information with them in order for them to maintain contact with you while you are out of country.   

Welcome to the “Ask a CAF Recruiter” section. The members tagged as “CAF Recruiter” are official Canadian Armed Forces recruiters. They will identify themselves with their rank, first name and the Forces.ca avatar. In order to best answer questions, there are some rules that need to be adhered to.

This section is for persons who have questions about joining the Canadian Armed Forces, occupations, different enrolment programs, and prerequisites. Much of the information can be found at Forces.ca, or the Recruiting FAQ and wiki section of this site. Before you ask a question, you should be searching the forum or the Forces.ca website for these answers.

We will not answer questions about technical difficulties with the application process, or the website. *We will not answer questions about difficulties contacting your recruiting centre or general inquires with regards to your current application or file. *These questions can be asked here: http://forces.ca/en/page/contactus-73


----------



## DevilsBrigade

Thank you for your reply. I did not pay attention to the rules and that's my fault. I did much research afterwards and I found some useful info. I should have done more research before posting. Sorry for that.


----------



## HopefullyNotH3

(Search yielded no results)

Is it before or after the medical/background check?

Is it usually the last step?


----------



## KerryBlue

References are part of the background check and generally they are the last thing done prior to merit listing. There is a 26 page thread on references, so I'm assuming your post will be merged there soon enough. http://army.ca/forums/threads/12763.0.html


----------



## va7ddp

Hi Everyone;

I have my CFAT coming up in a week. I need 4 Professional References. 

I turned 16 on December 19, 2013. 

I have known my References since February 2014, and July 2014; I was 16 at the time I knew these references. Would they qualify as a reference; or must I have someone who I have known since the day I turned 16?

Appreciate any help if possible, if a Recruiter on here can answer that would be great!

Thanks.


----------



## Captain Mark

va7ddp,

You need have enough references to cover the time period from your 16th birthday until now, with no gaps in that time. Example below:

-John, the soccer coach has known you from 19 December 2013 to 31 July 2014.

-Marry, high school teacher has known you from 15 May 2014 to 1 April 2015.

-Paul, your math tutor has known you from 1 March 2015 to present.

Although 4 references are recommended, you should be fine with a minimum of 2 references.


----------



## va7ddp

Thanks for your response;

This is what I have now on my "Data Verification"

1. Teacher - Sept 2010 to June 2015 (Known 5 Years)
2. Volunteer Coordinator - Feb 2014 to Current (Known 1.5 Years)
3. Manager - July 2014 to Current (Known 1.1 Years)
4. Supervisor - July 2014 to Current (Known 1.1 Years)

If I have understood you correctly this is will meet the requirements?


----------



## Che85

How many references do they actually call? I have 1 reference that got called. He is in the CF(does that matter?). 1 reference that played phone tag. 1 reference didn't not get a call and the forth one, I didn't heard from. 

Would the CF just settle with 1 reference?


----------



## JoeDos

Che85 said:
			
		

> How many references do they actually call? I have 1 reference that got called. He is in the CF(does that matter?). 1 reference that played phone tag. 1 reference didn't not get a call and the forth one, I didn't heard from.
> 
> Would the CF just settle with 1 reference?



They settled with only one of mine, a buddy I did some volunteer work with over the past 5 years for church. I did provide them with a teacher, and another person I did volunteer work with (church). And I spoke to my other references and they said they never got a call (My background check is done).


----------



## Captain Mark

Yes, your references are sufficient. Make sure that you let your references know that they will be contacted, and ensure that their contact information is correct.


----------



## va7ddp

Thanks for your help Cpt. Mark


----------



## Loachman

Merged.

And, this being Canada, the abbreviation for "Captain" is "Capt".


----------



## holieee

Garda called me early last week, they were trying to get a hold of one of my references but I had written one number down wrong. Before this, they had called one other one, and they verified up to 2013. It has been well over a week and they haven't contacted the rectified reference. Is it normal for them to take a while to fire the reference check back up again? Or do you think they tried the other two of four references and won't bother with the one I corrected?

This is my second time around, and I still don't understand the process...

Can anyone shed any light?


----------



## cdnjarhead

holieee said:
			
		

> Garda called me early last week, they were trying to get a hold of one of my references but I had written one number down wrong. Before this, they had called one other one, and they verified up to 2013. It has been well over a week and they haven't contacted the rectified reference. Is it normal for them to take a while to fire the reference check back up again? Or do you think they tried the other two of four references and won't bother with the one I corrected?
> 
> This is my second time around, and I still don't understand the process...
> 
> Can anyone shed any light?



I can only share my recent experience.
I spent some time teaching English in Asia so GARDA had trouble getting in touch with all my references from that time due to the time zone. After consulting with my recruiter I developed some alternate and acceptable references and submitted those. I also called the person at GARDA directly to discuss. Getting a hold of him took a week, they are usually on calls or away from their desk, but once I got a hold of him he was pleasant and we agreed on who would be called and when.
After that within a day or two my reference wrote me to say they'd received the call from GARDA.

So, like anything if you gently poke and prod things along and consult with your recruiter eventually things should be okay I guess. I still have not received word whether my background check itself satisfies all of CAF's needs but the process itself is moving along. If any hiccups arise it's just a matter of patience and staying in close contact with your recruiter and GARDA.


----------



## ekyyc7

Hi,

I am in the process of applying for regular forces.  

On the "DND Personal Data Verification" form it has a section for employment history and I must list my employment history for the past  years.  

My concern is I left 2 employers on not so good terms.  I didn't get fired. I left over major disagreements and the relationships ended on a sour note.

I wouldn't have a problem being 100% honest with recruiters but I am concerned that if they actually phone them they aren't going to say positive things about me and harm my chances of being accepted into the military. 

Will the government/recruiters actually phone my previous employers as well as the typical 4 references?


----------



## George Wallace

ekyyc7 said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> I am in the process of applying for regular forces.
> 
> On the "DND Personal Data Verification" form it has a section for employment history and I must list my employment history for the past  years.
> 
> My concern is I left 2 employers on not so good terms.  I didn't get fired. I left over major disagreements and the relationships ended on a sour note.
> 
> I wouldn't have a problem being 100% honest with recruiters but I am concerned that if they actually phone them they aren't going to say positive things about me and harm my chances of being accepted into the military.
> 
> Will the government/recruiters actually phone my previous employers as well as the typical 4 references?



We have 27 pages here on the topic "References".  I know that your question above has been asked several times before.  Did you read the answers to those questions on the previous pages?


----------



## DAA

ekyyc7 said:
			
		

> Will the government/recruiters actually phone my previous employers as well as the typical 4 references?



Yes, they most likely will be calling your previous employers.


----------



## canadianMedic

Hello,

I am currently undergoing the recruitment process and was asked to give in 4 references. 
The problem i have with this is i have to have known my reference for minimally 5 years, and, as a guy who is only 19 years old the only references i can hand out are family friends (because of the 5 year rule). The rule to my references are i cannot use family members, neighbors or family friends. I am only allowed to give teachers or coworkers/bosses. 
I wasn't the best student in school so every teacher i have contacted said i could use him as a reference, although he has to tell the truth about my "work ethics", which would be fine, but i desperately want this job in the military and i cant afford to have it blown away because of my lack of maturity in high school.

I have a family friend who also happened to be a secretary at my high school (who i have known for 19 years) and another family friend who has hired me to  work for him with his business (who i have known for 19 years). 

I need help with ideas on who i can use. Maybe mention who you have used (other than teachers) for your references, and if they worked. 

Also, would these 2 references be alright for my application?

Please let me know, i have my medical and my interview coming up in the next couple of weeks. 

Thanks

- Ryan :facepalm:


----------



## Loachman

And another merge...

canadianMedic  - aside from learning how to do simple research and using the Search Function, please also learn to capitalize appropriately, unless you use "i" within sentences to denote a deficiency of self-esteem.


----------



## vleeuwentom

Hi,

So I just started the application and when to see a recruiter to get more information. 
While there we were talking about references and I mentioned that I might have a hard time getting enough references. He eluded to the fact that if i didn't have enough references it meant the forces wouldn't be interested in me.
The problem is I recently graduated university and didn't really connect with many professors and generally only had them for one or two classes thus only knowing them for 4 months at a time. 
For professional references I had 3 co-op jobs totaling 16 months. I'm not a man of faith and didn't really have a someone I looked up to. 
I did play ultimate but there was no coach only a captain and for one of the teams it was my sister. 

What should I do?
thanks in advance.


----------



## Pusser

Years ago, when I went through this as a 19 year old, I used my friends' parents.  These were not "family friends" because they did not socialize with my parents, but they knew me because I had hung out at their houses for many years.


----------



## lwt

Hi Everyone,

I'm applying as a 26 year old. Regarding the references, the instructions seem to indicate that I need to cover the last 10 years of my life (as opposed to 5):

"Your references, either individually or in combination, must have known your for at least the last give (5) continuous years (or to age 16, whichever comes first)."

Am I interpreting this correctly? It seems a bit odd (not to mention difficult) that I have to find references from before the beginning of high school. My education and work experience from the last 5 years is the most relevant to my current application, so it makes more sense to pick more recent references. 

Can any older applicants comment on this? Thanks.


----------



## George Wallace

lwt said:
			
		

> Hi Everyone,
> 
> I'm applying as a 26 year old. Regarding the references, the instructions seem to indicate that I need to cover the last 10 years of my life (as opposed to 5):
> 
> "Your references, either individually or in combination, must have known your for at least the last give (5) continuous years (or to age 16, whichever comes first)."



Unless you have been highly mobile in your 26 years, finding references who have known you for ten years should not be a problem.  If you have read through this LONG thread, your answers would have been found.  Quite simply, your References can be anyone, not related by blood, that has known you for ten years: a neighbour; a teacher; an instructor or coach; a Scoutmaster; a priest; a boss; any of dozens of people who have known you for ten years.  They do not have to have been your "best friends".


----------



## RedcapCrusader

lwt said:
			
		

> Hi Everyone,
> 
> I'm applying as a 26 year old. Regarding the references, the instructions seem to indicate that I need to cover the last 10 years of my life (as opposed to 5):
> 
> "Your references, either individually or in combination, must have known your for at least the last give (5) continuous years (or to age 16, whichever comes first)."
> 
> Am I interpreting this correctly? It seems a bit odd (not to mention difficult) that I have to find references from before the beginning of high school. My education and work experience from the last 5 years is the most relevant to my current application, so it makes more sense to pick more recent references.
> 
> Can any older applicants comment on this? Thanks.



It's not 10 years, it's 5 years OR from age 16 - whichever comes first.

Pretty simple.

If all your references have known you for continuous 5 previous years (so 21 to current), you can use those. It does NOT have to be people that have known you from age 16 unless you have no other choice.


----------



## mooell

Hello,

I know this question has been asked because I searched the forum and found where it was brought up, however what I found was 2 different answers so I was hoping someone can clear this up.

Can I use my sister-in-law (wife's sister) and/or brother-in-law (wifes sisters husband) as a character reference? 

I am married not common law.

When I searched the forum I was lead to this post:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/12763/post-865800.html#msg865800

Followed by George Wallace saying that if you are married then in-laws are considered blood relatives, but in the next post Retired FDO says that if you want to use your in-laws you can.

Sorry if this seems to be a question that has been answered but to me that seems like contradictory answers.


----------



## mariomike

> We went over it , the only problem I have it that I don't have anyone to cover my 5 year history references required in the application package . 

Saw this in Ask a CAF Recruiter. Adding for reference,



			
				Warrant Officer Robert said:
			
		

> Selecting your References:
> A valid reference is defined as an adult (18 years of age or older) that knows you well enough to provide a worthwhile, fair and adequate assessment about your personal character. Members of the family or relatives, family friends, friends, neighbours, co-workers or peers are not considered valid references.
> The references can be categorized as follows:
> a. Educational References: these persons are former or current teachers, professors, coaches, instructors, or trainers;
> b. Professional References: these persons are former or current supervisors, managers, overseers, advisors, or employers; and
> c. Personal References: these persons can be a minister, clergyman, mentor, counsellor, community leader, etc.
> Your references, either individually or in combination, must have known you for at least the last five (5) continuous years (or to age 16, whichever comes first).
> 
> As long as your reference falls into any one of the categories above, they can be used.   It is generally recommended to have known the person for at least "1-year" as a minimum but preferably longer, if possible.  We also suggest that you Contact your references first to ask for permission to use them and make sure they are aware that they may be contacted by either the Department of National Defence or their agents.


----------



## bookibaloush

Hello! I am currently 23 years old and about to finish my studies and then i will enlist but i have a problem.... I have never ever worked in my life. What should i do for professionnal references? I do have a couple of 5 years old + references.


----------



## mariomike

Asked and answered in Ask a CAF Recruiter. Adding for reference,

Q: So I was born in US but I never lived there my whole life. My recruiting officer wanted me to provide 2 references from US which I am unable to. What should I do from there?

A: Why?  Foreign references, as far as I know, are not permitted and I can't see any reason why they would be asking for something like this.

Q: My question is, with them calling my references is this a good sign for my background check? Or is this just a part of the process and not get my hopes up?

A: Upon completion of your Interview and Medical, the "Reference Check" is the next step in your application process.  So if your references are being contacted, then your application is actively being worked on.


----------



## Cults

Before I get flak, I have read the past 100 posts made in this thread. 

I have enough peple to account for 5 years total. None have known me for more than 3 years, some I haven't spoken to in 3 years. Which I know is fine from reading previous posts, please correct me if I'm wrong. 

My question is: can I give multiple references from the same place. I had many supervisors at my previous job and I have many teachers at my current school, can I use many people from the same school or place of employment?

Thanks in advance for your help, I will not reply again just to say thanks as to not pollute the thread.


----------



## DAA

Cults said:
			
		

> Before I get flak, I have read the past 100 posts made in this thread.
> I have enough peple to account for 5 years total. None have known me for more than 3 years, some I haven't spoken to in 3 years. Which I know is fine from reading previous posts, please correct me if I'm wrong.
> My question is: can I give multiple references from the same place. I had many supervisors at my previous job and I have many teachers at my current school, can I use many people from the same school or place of employment?
> Thanks in advance for your help, I will not reply again just to say thanks as to not pollute the thread.



The optimum is to list people who can cover the previous 5 year period.  When this is not possible, you can use multiple references to cover the preceeding 5 years, just ensure there are NO gaps in the time covered.  I don't see why you couldn't use multiple references from the same organization if you had to.  Just try and stay away from references that you have known for less than 18 months, with the exception of your most current reference.


----------



## mariomike

Asked and answered in Ask a CAF Recruiter, adding for reference,

Reference Question  
http://milnet.ca/forums/threads/123731.0/topicseen.html



			
				wow456 said:
			
		

> Are you allowed to use former co-workers as a Professional Reference?





			
				DAA said:
			
		

> Depends on which form you are filling out.
> 
> If you are completing the PDV Form (Personal Data Verification) ( http://cdn.forces.ca/_PDF2010/PersonalDataVerification.pdf ) provided by and used by your local Recruiting Detachment, then the answer is NO!  What is considered acceptable for references is explained on page one (2nd bullet from the bottom) of this form.
> 
> If you are completing the TBS 330-60 (Security Clearance Form) ( https://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/tbsf-fsct/330-60-nf-eng.pdf ), then the answer is YES!


----------



## sunnyday

Has anyone ever have a case where your 26 so too long out of school to use a teacher & have been self employed since 2008, I don't go to church or anything like that and have no references because they said I can't use clients I did work for during being self employed, is there a way to fight this?


----------



## jdavid

After reading through the recent threads, I still have a couple lingering questions that hopefully someone here can help me answer.
Firstly, I worked for a company for three years, from 2008 - 2011. However, I have NOT worked there in the past five years. Is it possible for me to use a former supervisor from this company as a reference?
Secondly, I noticed in one of the posts above that someone used a co-worker from volunteer work with a church as a reference. Would it be possible for me to use a former student who I took several courses with and completed a couple student projects with as a reference? I was a good student in terms of grades while attending university, but I did not form bonds with any of my professors and my reference list is suffering as a result.

Currently, my reference list is as follows:
1. Former supervisor - Known for 8 years (2008 - present) - hasn't been my supervisor at any point in the last 5 years.
2. Former professor from college - Known 1 year (September 2015-present).
3. Current supervisor - Known 8 months (February 2016-present).
4. Previous supervisor - Known 14 months (July 2015-present) - Only worked for company for two months (start of July - end of August).

A few notes, I finished a university degree and advanced college diploma over the last 5 years, so, I only have employment references from work experience I had previous to university (more than 5 years ago), summer jobs, and my current place of employment. Since most of my summer jobs were for temp agencies, I only have a reference from one summer job which was not through a temp agency.

Sorry for the long question and thanks for taking the time to read it.


----------



## Deadpoetic6

Hi,

I'm required to put 4 references on my enrollment paper, before doing my CFAT test. Since the references can't be a friend, a member of my family, a coworker or a neighbor, i'm left with pretty much nobody to write. I've been off school for like 10+ years, pretty sure my old teachers don't even remember me, and I dont really remember their names either. What should I do? I can enter my current boss, but beside that i'm pretty much FUBAR.
Can an ex coworker or members of my girlfriend's family be valid?

Thanks!


----------



## George Wallace

Deadpoetic6 said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> I'm required to put 4 references on my enrollment paper, before doing my CFAT test. Since the references can't be a friend, a member of my family, a coworker or a neighbor, i'm left with pretty much nobody to write. I've been off school for like 10+ years, pretty sure my old teachers don't even remember me, and I dont really remember their names either. What should I do? I can enter my current boss, but beside that i'm pretty much FUBAR.
> Can an ex coworker or members of my girlfriend's family be valid?
> 
> Thanks!



Re-read the instructions, understand them and follow them.

Read this whole thread and take advice from the posts in it.


----------



## newt_recruit

Can I use someone from more than five years ago?


----------



## George Wallace

newt_recruit said:
			
		

> Can I use someone from more than five years ago?



Have you read this thread at all?


----------



## Morgan822

Good day,

This may be a tough question to answer seeing how garda is the one who does the security check, but would anyone know if references are contacted at the start of the check or towards the completion?


----------



## mjk8390

Hi,

I am 24 years old and am planning to apply rotp next year.
I am trying to find four references who have known me for at least the last 5 continuous years (either individually or combination), but I can only think of one professor who had known me from 2012~2013. 
From 2013~2016, I took 3 gap years from a university due to a family issue and was unsociable at that time, so I don't know anyone who can cover this timeline.
I am resuming my university as a second-year student this year and trying my best to get involved in extracurricular activities and physical activities. I am wondering if I could use people whom I met back in my high school years (but I haven't contacted them for years) as references.


----------



## George Wallace

The only stipulation on References is that they have known you for five years.  It does not state "when" that five years was, nor "where" they may live.  

For a Clearance I had to list a neighbour who had known me.  As I had moved recently to a new city, I had to use a neighbour from my old town who had known me for over ten years.


----------



## lohocard

This could already be somewhere, but in case anybody wanted to know more about the recruiting centre contacting your employers, if they can't reach them, you can send in all of your T4 slips to the recruiting centre and avoid the annoyance of calling all of your employers. I just did that today 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BrewsKampbell

George Wallace said:
			
		

> The only stipulation on References is that they have known you for five years.  It does not state "when" that five years was, nor "where" they may live.
> 
> For a Clearance I had to list a neighbour who had known me.  As I had moved recently to a new city, I had to use a neighbour from my old town who had known me for over ten years.



I spoke to the recruiting centre about references when I was re-enrolling last year, I was informed they will accept references that have known you for less than 5 years. The Cpl I spoke to said they don't want to see all references that have only known you for a few months. Having one or two that have known you less than the 5 was acceptable. I had listed a reference that had known me for 4.


----------



## clmarr

In my case, I was told I needed to cover the last 5 years continuously. It didn't matter if I had known them for less than 5 years. The only thing that mattered is, I needed to be under their supervision (as an employer, teacher or mentor) for different periods over the last 5 years, without interruption. I received a call because despite the fact I had 4 references, I had one period of time that was not covered by any of them. I needed to provide an extra reference who was my employer/teacher during that specific period.


----------



## 10wskali

*  Beware of third party company (Mintz Global Screening, formerly Garda) and their bogus reference checks  *

My application file, although entirely completed, has been sitting on my MCC's desk for weeks now because Mintz Global Screening allegedly failed to contact BOTH my employment references via phone AND email. As per the notes that they sent back to my CFRC, they mentioned that they also failed to contact me in an attempt to notify me about the matter.

For weeks I was going to my CFRC and the recruiters at the front desk were telling me that my file was complete and the only thing left to do was have the MCC sign off on it. Finally, I received a call on April 3rd from a senior file manager informing me about the situation. He told me that its not the first time this has happened and that he strongly believes the third party company is falsifying the reference checks in many cases. 

Fortunately, he was kind enough to take the matter on personally and my MCC agreed to contact my employment references without sending my file back to Mintz. I was also told that the CAF recruitment agencies will no longer be using Mintz as of next year.

As a warning to the fellow hopeful recruits, keep a close eye on how your reference checks are being handled. 

On the other hand, I commend the individuals working my file at my CFRC, and I am very happy they brought this to my attention. As of April 3rd, one of my two employment references, if not both, have already been contacted.



			
				mjk8390 said:
			
		

> I am 24 years old and am planning to apply rotp next year.
> I am trying to find four references who have known me for at least the last 5 continuous years (either individually or combination), but I can only think of one professor who had known me from 2012~2013.



Try to get in touch with a high school teacher that would still know you by name if they saw you, talk to them and inform them of your plans. Just because you haven't seen them for the past 3 years doesn't mean they technically haven't known you for 5. If you have at least one person that has known you for 5 years (high school teacher), chances are they won't call anybody else, meaning your other 3 references don't have to cover extensive time lines.  Good luck.


----------



## Pusser

clmarr said:
			
		

> In my case, I was told I needed to cover the last 5 years continuously. It didn't matter if I had known them for less than 5 years. The only thing that mattered is, I needed to be under their supervision (as an employer, teacher or mentor) for different periods over the last 5 years, without interruption. I received a call because despite the fact I had 4 references, I had one period of time that was not covered by any of them. I needed to provide an extra reference who was my employer/teacher during that specific period.



You're confusing references with employment history.  A reference is simply someone who can vouch for your character and can be just about anyone who has known you for at least five years.  You can use past employers/supervisors as references, but your references need not have anything to do with your past employment.


----------



## FlyLikeAnEagle

So, I just talked to my "recruiting councillor" and she said that the "powers that be" are doing my reference checks & criminal/background check. Now, one of.the references if a 5th cousin and I work for him regularly. If they contacted him, do they swear him to secrecy? Or can he tell me that they kicked tires with him? Also, do you think that disqualifies him from vouch ing for me? Our relation  is so far (his grandmother & my mother's grandfather were siblings) that it shouldn't, normally. 

Also, the "recruiting councillor" also said that the trade I chose "boatswain" was to be decided by the 19th of April. Assuming this is a rough estimate and they don't fulfill the jobs (32) can it carry over to May? June? Or should I assume that if I hear nothing from them, my check didn't go good? 

Thanks a bunch
Joe


----------



## 10wskali

Your reference check is being conducted by a third party company (Mintz Global Screening). You should have informed your references beforehand so that they would expect a call. The rules on the application are clear: *Members of the family or relatives, family friends, friends, neighbours, co-workers or peers are not considered valid references.* 

Having said, a fifth cousin is so distant that it would not have been worth mentioning it on the application, merely stating him as a "supervisor" which falls under the scope of "professional references" would have been sufficient. That is my opinion and how I probably would have handled it; so I would say, no, it does not disqualify him from vouching for you. 

There is nothing that prevents your references from following up with you if they receive a call. 

To answer your final question, if they do not fill all the positions on April 19th, they will use future selection dates to fill those positions. It can take a long time for your file to be processed depending on  when you submitted your application and the stage that its at right now. If your file is completed later this year and you are placed on the competition list but all the positions have been filled, you will potentially have to wait until next year for new openings and a chance at being selected. When it comes to that point, the chance of you being selected depends on the strength of your application compared to that of the other candidates on the competition list.

Cheers.


----------



## FlyLikeAnEagle

John Kanaka said:
			
		

> Your reference check is being conducted by a third party company (Mintz Global Screening). You should have informed your references beforehand so that they would expect a call. The rules on the application are clear: *Members of the family or relatives, family friends, friends, neighbours, co-workers or peers are not considered valid references.*
> 
> Having said, a fifth cousin is so distant that it would not have been worth mentioning it on the application, merely stating him as a "supervisor" which falls under the scope of "professional references" would have been sufficient. That is my opinion and how I probably would have handled it; so I would say, no, it does not disqualify him from vouching for you.
> 
> There is nothing that prevents your references from following up with you if they receive a call.
> 
> To answer your second question, if they do not fill all the positions on April 19th, they will use future selection dates to fill those positions.



I got the okay from them all..I called to ask them if they'd do it and they all said yeah. I only asked on part of my cousin is that if he blurts our relationship  (as far back as it is) it doesn't smear his reputation. I was sure to chose high position people (teacher, former Sgt in the US Army, head of the welding school & Chief) so I look good.


----------



## 10wskali

I wouldn't worry about it, so long as he mentions that you work for him or have worked for him. Your references seem like really good sources.


----------



## da1root

FlyLikeAnEagle said:
			
		

> Also, the "recruiting councillor" also said that the trade I chose "boatswain" was to be decided by the 19th of April. Assuming this is a rough estimate and they don't fulfill the jobs (32) can it carry over to May? June? Or should I assume that if I hear nothing from them, my check didn't go good?



Selections continue to be ongoing until the occupation is filled for the year, that might take 1 selection, 2, 3 or 20.  Just because the CAF is recruiting 50 Boatswains for 17/18 doesn't mean they will all be chosen in one selection.  They are selected based on their merit score (a combination of CFAT/TSD, Interview).  So after the 19 April 2017 there might be positions remaining.  I would give your CFRC a call a week or two after that date to find out if there are still openings.


----------



## FlyLikeAnEagle

Buck_HRA said:
			
		

> Selections continue to be ongoing until the occupation is filled for the year, that might take 1 selection, 2, 3 or 20.  Just because the CAF is recruiting 50 Boatswains for 17/18 doesn't mean they will all be chosen in one selection.  They are selected based on their merit score (a combination of CFAT/TSD, Interview).  So after the 19 April 2017 there might be positions remaining.  I will give your CFRC a call a week or two after that date to find out if there are still openings.



They wrote me back saying I'm getting a final screening (checks) and they'll let me know if I go into selection. Is it true that if you're not selected they'll inform you via email? I'm suppose to be doing my drive school but I put it on hold til I get a response. I'm also looking at a few welding jobs but don't wanna commit until this either sinks or swims. 

Thanks


----------



## clmarr

Thanks for the clarification, I indeed confused one with the other.


----------



## OzzyA

Hello everyone,

Since the reference instructions state the following, I have a few issues:

"Members of your family or relatives, family friends, friends, neighbours, co-workers or peers are not considered valid references.
Your references, either individually or in combination, must have known you for at least the last five (5) continuous years."

I have spent three years studying in Europe and cannot adequately provide sources for the past three years. I had no relationship with my professors, and have not worked in those three years. I can try to find my high school vice-principal for my reference from four to five years back, however, I cannot proceed without filling in these three years. I've thought long and hard and cannot think of a single prof that knows my name (I was a quiet one in class that never spoke).

Are my chances of entering the Forces nill now that I've got virtually no references for that period of time?

Note: References must be:

a. Educational references: these persons are former or current teachers, professors, coaches, instructors, or trainers;
b. Professional references: these persons are former or current supervisors, managers, foremen, advisors, or employers; or
c. Personal references: these persons can be a minister, clergyman, mentor, counsellor, or community leader.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

OzzyA said:
			
		

> Hello everyone,
> 
> Since the reference instructions state the following, I have a few issues:
> 
> "Members of your family or relatives, family friends, friends, neighbours, co-workers or peers are not considered valid references.
> Your references, either individually or in combination, must have known you for at least the last five (5) continuous years."
> 
> I have spent three years studying in Europe and cannot adequately provide sources for the past three years. I had no relationship with my professors, and have not worked in those three years. I can try to find my high school vice-principal for my reference from four to five years back, however, I cannot proceed without filling in these three years. I've thought long and hard and cannot think of a single prof that knows my name (I was a quiet one in class that never spoke).
> 
> Are my chances of entering the Forces nill now that I've got virtually no references for that period of time?
> 
> Note: References must be:
> 
> a. Educational references: these persons are former or current teachers, professors, coaches, instructors, or trainers;
> b. Professional references: these persons are former or current supervisors, managers, foremen, advisors, or employers; or
> c. Personal references: these persons can be a minister, clergyman, mentor, counsellor, or community leader.



I used references that didn't exactly fit into those criteria, but they were still accepted.

There are answers earlier in this thread and there should also be some in the link below to help you along.

http://army.ca/forums/threads/106340.0


----------



## FlyLikeAnEagle

Bonjourno. 

So, i talked to my PO2 today and she said that my application was in the hands of the MCC (Military Career Counselor) and should know fairly soon. They talked to my references (one of them was on vacation when they called but haven't called him back *she said that the other 3 references could've been suffice enough to vouch for me **one told me that he gave me a good recommendation***) and all...so I'm curious...does it sound promising or what? Is the MCC's "okay, check +, 👍 really the last step? 

Any feedback would be beasts. 
FLAE


----------



## BeyondTheNow

FlyLikeAnEagle said:
			
		

> Bonjourno.
> 
> So, i talked to my PO2 today and she said that my application was in the hands of the MCC (Military Career Counselor) and should know fairly soon. They talked to my references (one of them was on vacation when they called but haven't called him back *she said that the other 3 references could've been suffice enough to vouch for me **one told me that he gave me a good recommendation***) and all...so I'm curious...does it sound promising or what? Is the MCC's "okay, check +, 👍 really the last step?
> 
> Any feedback would be beasts.
> FLAE



"Beasts?" I guess I'm getting too old to keep up with the latest 'hip' lingo circulating these days...

Using professional language and tone when posting/seeking answers can go a long way on this site.

I'll leave it up to a user specializing in Recruiting to see if they'd like to offer their opinion.


----------



## da1root

FlyLikeAnEagle said:
			
		

> Bonjourno.
> 
> So, i talked to my PO2 today and she said that my application was in the hands of the MCC (Military Career Counselor) and should know fairly soon. They talked to my references (one of them was on vacation when they called but haven't called him back *she said that the other 3 references could've been suffice enough to vouch for me **one told me that he gave me a good recommendation***) and all...so I'm curious...does it sound promising or what? Is the MCC's "okay, check +, 👍 really the last step?
> 
> Any feedback would be beasts.
> FLAE



In most cases the Reliability Check is the last step prior to making it to "Ready for Competition List"; however if you have medical issues outstanding than the last step could be the RMO.  Everyone's file is slightly different so your best bet is to speak with your Recruiter/File Manager to find out if you are being placed into the "Ready for Competition List".

While there are users on here who have extensive Recruiting knowledge, the best source of information on your file is always your recruiting centre.


----------



## EpicBeardedMan

They were really quick to contact my references, they've already finished my reference check but I have my medical tomorrow and my interview got bumped to monday due to a scheduling error. One less thing to worry about I guess.


----------



## Northstar86

John Kanaka said:
			
		

> *  Beware of third party company (Mintz Global Screening, formerly Garda) and their bogus reference checks  *
> 
> My application file, although entirely completed, has been sitting on my MCC's desk for weeks now because Mintz Global Screening allegedly failed to contact BOTH my employment references via phone AND email. As per the notes that they sent back to my CFRC, they mentioned that they also failed to contact me in an attempt to notify me about the matter.
> 
> For weeks I was going to my CFRC and the recruiters at the front desk were telling me that my file was complete and the only thing left to do was have the MCC sign off on it. Finally, I received a call on April 3rd from a senior file manager informing me about the situation. He told me that its not the first time this has happened and that he strongly believes the third party company is falsifying the reference checks in many cases.
> 
> Fortunately, he was kind enough to take the matter on personally and my MCC agreed to contact my employment references without sending my file back to Mintz. I was also told that the CAF recruitment agencies will no longer be using Mintz as of next year.
> 
> As a warning to the fellow hopeful recruits, keep a close eye on how your reference checks are being handled.



Mintz failed royally on my check too! Thank you for posting this, I have been extra diligent about getting updates from my recruiter because of your post!

 Last week he replied saying that Mintz was unable to get a hold of my current employer, which was completely false. She called me as soon as she sent back their form after their phone call and told me all about it. They also said that they were unable to contact a former company I did contract work for, which after speaking with the employer I think may not be true either as he was adamant that they call back every number regardless if a voicemail is left.

 So what Mintz wanted me to do was provide T4's or ROE's as proof of employment...maybe instead of them actually doing what they are paid for? I don't know, very frustrating on my end.

 Also magically on Friday, two of my references that had not been contacted got a call.

*Moral of the story; Follow up on a regular basis with you references and your recruiter!*


----------



## da1root

Hi Northstar, I'm going to be sending you a PM on here, please make sure to check your PM inbox.


----------



## Willyboyrun92

Good afternoon all,

New to the forum, look forward to taking a look through all of the advice on here. I suspect my situation may original, so I thought I would ask the opinion of a recruiter or experienced member. 

I am heading to University in the fall as a mature student, full time. I have just applied to the reserves, and am excited about the opportunity to serve with the Canadian Forces in a part-time capacity during my 4 years in University. Hoping to transition into the regular force after school. 

Anyway, my specific problem: I have a good deal of solid job experience, of which I have made great connections, excellent references, and am happy to have them listed on my employment verification. I made a mistake getting into my last job, having seen some warning signs of a bad employment situation, but hopped on the opportunity anyway as it gave me the chance to sign up as an apprentice. I worked for a two man company, and unfortunately both the owner and one employee were heavy drinkers, and drug users. Dealt with being in a van with either one on any given day for almost 8 months. Issues such as extreme road rage, yelling at customers, lack of hours - I had enough and spoke with the owner about my concern over my own personal safety. He said there was nothing he could do as he did not want to lose his only journeyman. 

After much debate, I unfortunately had to leave due to concern over my own safety, and not wanting to be a part of any illegal activity. Both the owner and journeyman were extremely angry when I left, and I am concerned as I do not want this to reflect negatively upon me when the forces complete an employment verification. Can I request that they not contact this employer? I have years of other work experience listed with great people they could talk to, but I am so concerned about them talking to people like this.

Thank you in advanced for your help.


----------



## serenamorrow

Hello, 

In fear of treading the same path followed by many as I have not read the entire thread, seeking a clarification. I did my TSDI today. I met a recruiter before it to see if they can get my paperwork in order before the test, and then finished with different recruiter afterwards as I had to refill a form. First one did not comment about my references, and the second did, stating to find new ones I think solely because I mention friend/roommate along with another qualifier. 

Re-reading the definitions/requirements, both in english and french, I thought the one's I provided is valid. Maybe should have writing the connection differently. 

All three of them I included are friends to some degree, one a roommate and another ex-roommate. At the same time though, one has known me for over fifteen years in different capacities, including being co-board of directors before of the sport organization we are still  presently members. The second are a friend of my brothers and in turn acquaintance friend to me while being an ex-roommate, spanning nearly six years, yet also interacted with to some degrees professionally as they are co-head of their own company. Third is a present roommate yet also ex-coworker at past employment,  totally five plus years. They all can provide character and professional feedback, with at least two of them having acquired reliability security clearance at minimum (assumption base of their past/present occupations). 

The recruiter suggested maybe a coach in my sport, in reference to discussing my long list of travelling, I find them more awkward and less reliable, not so much because of history, but all the ones I can rely on at least honest neutral work reference are not from canada, or do not know them long enough...also some possible bias towards the military. Teammates would be considered the same as friends/roommates I would think.

As I continue filtering through alternatives, and asking for their permission, thinking of re-categorize them better while replacing my roommate/excoworker with a coworker/lead from my last employment, yet who got layed off like me but couple of months later. I can check with some of my old work references, but I have not seen them in person about five years as they moved elsewhere after our work. Previous security references do not count either as either lost contact or have not seen them in last five years as well. 

May not be really a question, more like thinking out loud and maybe confirmation if my thought process is good or not. I am planning to swing by the RC again tomorrow as I will downtown again for other an appointment, so will regardless ask for clarification while having some alternatives in hand.


----------



## da1root

I have a friend of 15+ years that we started out as co-workers; so when I fill out a security form I put "past co-worker".
I also have a former supervisor who is a close friend of mine now, when filling out paperwork I put "Prior Supervisor".  

For Teammates; think of it this way - if you were never on the team would you be friends with them?  They are a teammate first, friend second.

Most questioning is going to be "Hi, how long have you known Applicant Bloggings for?" - "And how did you meet Applicant Bloggins?"


----------



## Cenibuk

Good evening everyone,

I’ve had a number of issues with both my employer references (They can’t get in touch with 2 and they aren’t returning calls) as well I’ve had a number of personal references disqualified for a variety of reasons. For example I had one reference who was actually a town councillor of my hometown, and who I had known since I was 2, as he had used to be my barber before. My second reference was my Pastor, he called me and said that he had received a call and essentially said I would be a great addition to the Armed Forces, but CIS (was forwarded an email from CIS by my Case manager) stating that the town councillor was ineligible as he would technically be a family friend. They then said my pastor had refused to provide a reference, which goes against what I was told by him. Another reference I tried using was a former coworker who is is actually a Mcpl in the Armed Forces right now, was disqualified as well because they wanted a supervisor or teacher. All of this kind of goes against a lot of what I’ve been reading here and reddit about current members reference checks when they were applying. I am starting to run my list dry and I am really not sure what to do at this point as my case manager is also out of office until Feb 06, so I imagine this won’t be addressed for awhile.

If anyone could provide any insight or advice, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thank you!


----------



## jdem007

Hey guys,

I have a quick question. My application was advancing until I hit a road block when they did the credit check. I did my medical. Everything is good. I was going to do my interview until I was told to settle my debts first. The MCC, I'm not sure if that was one, but he had all my files and told me he could not proceed. He told me I will receive a letter via mail and suggested to me to close the application and once I get everything in good condition to come back to talk to him and he will reopen the file. Now, my references have been contacted already. My question is, since the file is close if I reopen it and the application starts proceeding again, would they have to call my references again? I just want to make sure to let them know they might receive another call from the Army in case they think everything is good. Please let me know anyone.

Thanks,


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

Cenibuk said:
			
		

> Good evening everyone,
> 
> I've had a number of issues with both my employer references (They can't get in touch with 2 and they aren't returning calls) as well I've had a number of personal references disqualified for a variety of reasons. For example I had one reference who was actually a town councillor of my hometown, and who I had known since I was 2, as he had used to be my barber before. My second reference was my Pastor, he called me and said that he had received a call and essentially said I would be a great addition to the Armed Forces, but CIS (was forwarded an email from CIS by my Case manager) stating that the town councillor was ineligible as he would technically be a family friend. They then said my pastor had refused to provide a reference, which goes against what I was told by him. Another reference I tried using was a former coworker who is is actually a Mcpl in the Armed Forces right now, was disqualified as well because they wanted a supervisor or teacher. All of this kind of goes against a lot of what I've been reading here and reddit about current members reference checks when they were applying. I am starting to run my list dry and I am really not sure what to do at this point as my case manager is also out of office until Feb 06, so I imagine this won't be addressed for awhile.
> 
> If anyone could provide any insight or advice, I would greatly appreciate it.
> 
> Thank you!



I your post was a few weeks ago and your file manager was going to be back 4 February ... I'm wondering how the whole scenario eventually shook out (if it has)?

Re: CIS disqualifying one reference because they wanted a supervisor or teacher, I had a similar thing happen to me with CIS this week. I just spoke with my pastor after church this morning and he told me that CIS rejected him as a reference because he's not a "supervisor". I never saw anywhere on the application forms requiring that each and every one of my references had to be someone who's been a supervisor/teacher.

As someone who's been self employed for 10+ years I had a hard enough time finding anyone somewhat in supervision of me. As a lawyer, the closest I could get was the local judge who I appear in front of in court regularly, and a senior lawyer who mentored me when I was first getting into business for myself. After that I'm tapped out.

I'm going to call my file manager Monday to see what's what.

EDITED TO ADD: I double-checked the DND 4370-E in anticipation of the typical "Re-read the forms you filled out and the 100s of posts on this thread instead of asking stupid questions" post. The DND 4370-E says with regards to references:

"_A valid reference is defined as an adult (18 years of age or older) that knows you well enough to provide a worthwhile, fair and adequate assessment about your personal character. Members of your family or relatives, family friends, friends, neighbours, co-workers or peers are not considered valid references. Your references, either individually or combined, must have know you for at least the last five (5) continuous years (or to age 16, whichever comes first). The references can be categorized as follows:

a. Educational references: these persons are former or current teachers, professors, coaches, instructors, or trainers;
b. Professional references: these persons are former or current supervisors, managers, foremen, advisors, or employers; or
c. Personal references: these persons can be a minister, clergyman, mentor, counsellor, or community leader._"

I provided two professional references who checked out fine. Then I presented one personal reference, my pastor, who I've known for 6 years and is not a relative or a friend (he's my priest). *So what am I missing?* I am guessing that the person from CIS just misunderstood what the requirements were.


----------



## macarena

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> (...)
> As someone who's been self employed for 10+ years I had a hard enough time finding anyone somewhat in supervision of me. (...)



Hi, mates!
I am in a similar situation: I am in my actual job for already 5 years.
Then I had a lot of trouble to find supervisors from former jobs, since the period I have been in touch with them in the last 5 years, have not been continuous.
Since I enrolled to swim lessons, in order to pass the swim tests from the CAF, then I wonder if I can present my swim teacher as reference, given we only know each other for 1 month yet.

And about the fragment "_Your references, either individually or combined, must have know you for at least the last five (5) continuous years_".

Does it mean that I can present my swim teacher as reference, since the 1 month we know each other, when it will be added to the 5 years from one former supervisor, it will satisfy the constraint?
I've tried to read the equivalent fragment in the french formulary, but it didn't help to clarify this to me anyways.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

macarena said:
			
		

> Hi, mates!
> I am in a similar situation: I am in my actual job for already 5 years.
> Then I had a lot of trouble to find supervisors from former jobs, since the period I have been in touch with them in the last 5 years, have not been continuous.
> Since I enrolled to swim lessons, in order to pass the swim tests from the CAF, then I wonder if I can present my swim teacher as reference, given we only know each other for 1 month yet.
> 
> And about the fragment "_Your references, either individually or combined, must have know you for at least the last five (5) continuous years_".



I've read through so many threads that I can't remember where I found this (probably somewhere in this thread that dates back to 2003 so use this with caution), but I'm sure I've read that your three references between the three of them must add up to knowing you for the last five years. So I guess if you knew someone five years ago and lost contact two years ago they'd count so long as you have someone who can account for the most recent two years. That's how I understand it. 

When I spoke to my file manager about my issue that I listed above, I didn't really get an answer ... she just said that someone was looking at what was received from CIS and they would decide whether the two references who checked out were enough, whether they'd send CIS back to interview my pastor, or whether I'd need a new reference. She said I could give them a new reference now or wait to hear back. I opted to hear back and it's been almost two weeks with no word so I'm going to call again next week for an update on the status of my file.



			
				macarena said:
			
		

> Does it mean that I can present my swim teacher as reference, since the 1 month we know each other, when it will be added to the 5 years from one former supervisor, it will satisfy the constraint?



A swim instructor who's only known you for one month may not be able "to provide a worthwhile, fair and adequate assessment about your personal character" just because they don't know you well enough. I suppose every situation is unique, but I don't think I'd feel comfortable giving a reference or asking for a reference from someone I've only known a month.


----------



## macarena

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> (...) So I guess if you knew someone five years ago and lost contact two years ago they'd count so long as you have someone who can account for the most recent two years. That's how I understand it (...)



Thanks a lot, big fellow!
Your suggestion makes it much more clear for me.  :cdnsalute:


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

I've scoured this thread and did not see this topic come up. Probably because it is a non-issue, but I want to be 100% sure and under current circumstances it takes 1-2 weeks to receive a reply from my file manager, so while I'm waiting (I asked her this question too), I wanted to bounce it off the good folk here.

I am wondering whether an American citizen (who lives in the US) can be a reference?

I note that DND 4370 says

"_A valid reference is defined as an adult (18 years or older) that knows you well enough to provide a worthwhile, fair, and adequate assessment about your personal character._"


It does not specify that they need to be Canadian. But I was wondering if anyone has had a reference refused because they're not Canadian?

My family spends a fair bit of time in the U.S. under normal circumstances. I help run a summer boys camp at a church in the U.S. so I was considering using the priest who runs that camp as a reference, since CIS refused my local pastor as a valid reference because he's not a "supervisor".


----------



## jaysfan17

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> I've scoured this thread and did not see this topic come up. Probably because it is a non-issue, but I want to be 100% sure and under current circumstances it takes 1-2 weeks to receive a reply from my file manager, so while I'm waiting (I asked her this question too), I wanted to bounce it off the good folk here.
> 
> I am wondering whether an American citizen (who lives in the US) can be a reference?
> 
> I note that DND 4370 says
> 
> "_A valid reference is defined as an adult (18 years or older) that knows you well enough to provide a worthwhile, fair, and adequate assessment about your personal character._"
> 
> 
> It does not specify that they need to be Canadian. But I was wondering if anyone has had a reference refused because they're not Canadian?
> 
> My family spends a fair bit of time in the U.S. under normal circumstances. I help run a summer boys camp at a church in the U.S. so I was considering using the priest who runs that camp as a reference, since CIS refused my local pastor as a valid reference because he's not a "supervisor".



Can’t see why not. Like you said it doesn’t specify what nationality your character reference can be, so go with it.  It would would be stupid if your reference had to be a specific nationality, imo.


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