# Mess kit while switching elements



## dimsum (27 Nov 2008)

Interesting thing came up at a mess dinner.  I was told that if I had a mess kit from a previous element and switched over, I was still allowed to wear the mess kit from the old element (with changes...ie the the Navy executive curl would have to be replaced by the AF rank lace and the gold stripe down the pants would have to be removed.)  Anyone able to confirm this, or am I wrong?


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## Strike (27 Nov 2008)

I've heard of people being able to wear the mess kit of their former element.  Seen it done several times as well. However, never heard of people having to change the kit to match their current element.  Seems a little odd and more than a bit disrespectful to the uniform.  What do the dress regs say?


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## dapaterson (27 Nov 2008)

CFP 265, Chapter 6, annex B, para 7:



> 7. Obsolete Dress Mess. Obsolete patterns of mess dress may be worn until they are no longer in satisfactory condition by CF members who purchased them when still authorized. See Chapter 2, Section 1, paragraphs 56. to 58.



Chapter 2, Section 1, paragraphs 56 to 59 read:



> 56. Previous service manuals and any amendments or additional dress instructions subsequently issued regarding Royal Canadian Navy, Canadian Army and Royal Canadian Air Force patterns of uniforms shall be used as a guide on these special occasions. Information on these former orders and instructions can be obtained from NDHQ/DHH if required.
> 
> WEAR OF MESS DRESS
> 
> ...





(Edit for aesthetics)


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## MARS (27 Nov 2008)

???

Really Dimsum, I don't think that is allowed and I don't think it meets the definition of "obsolete" either. However, if you do make said alterations, then please...oh God please let me know. It would be my pleasure to pay for your flight, accommodations and a ticket to the next MARPAC/MARLANT/Navy mess dinner >

There we can have an in-depth discussion about the alterations to your mess kit - assuming you survive long enough to make it to dinner.   

It would be good to see you again and catch-up on things, man.

MARS


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## Strike (27 Nov 2008)

The pubs say obsolete uniforms are a go, and that they INCLUDE the ones listed.  They don't say they are limited to them.  I know former Army-types who still wear their Regimental mess kit at Air Force mess dinners.  I'd suggest showing the pub to the person who said you had to change the uniform.  Nowhere does it say alterations have to be made.  And when they say that it only lists the former mess kits and not a person's former element, you can point out that it doesn't say you CAN'T wear the mess kit of your former element either.  In fact, if you were to go through Chapter 2, just prior to the paras that dapaterson provided, it specifically says that the DEUs of a person's former element are NOT to be worn, except on special occasions.  Given that they specifically point this out for the DEU and NOT the mess kit would lead me to believe that you should be okay.


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## Blackadder1916 (27 Nov 2008)

> . . .   What do the dress regs say?



Nothing specfic (that I can find) dealing with personnel who change affliiation.  However, like Strike, I've seen many who continued to wear their previous environment/branch/regiment pattern of mess dress; usually the only change being the removal/substitution/addition of collar dogs (if worn) and the wearing of the appropriate cummerbund.  In your specific situation there might be an interesting twist for those who pick flys**t out of the pepper of military regulations.  My assumption (which may be incorrect) is you acquired naval pattern mess dress while a reservist (when you were not required to obtain it) and that your change of environmental affliiation coincided with transfer to the regular force (when you then were required to obtain mess dress).  A case could be made (by someone higher in the food chain than you, particularly if they were anal) that you have to acquire air force mess dress.  This is highly unlikely in the air force, but I have seen individuals (who already had their specific reserve regiment pattern mess dress) be compelled to obtain the pattern of mess kit for their new (regular force) regiment following CT.
  


> WEAR OF MESS DRESS
> 57. Acquisition
> 
> a. All Regular Force officers are required to be
> ...


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## dimsum (27 Nov 2008)

MARS said:
			
		

> ???
> 
> Really Dimsum, I don't think that is allowed and I don't think it meets the definition of "obsolete" either. However, if you do make said alterations, then please...oh God please let me know. It would be my pleasure to pay for your flight, accommodations and a ticket to the next MARPAC/MARLANT/Navy mess dinner >
> 
> ...



MARS - Please.  I wouldn't bet on me surviving until dinner even if I showed up wearing AF mess kit to a MARPAC/LANT/Navy mess dinner that involved anyone I knew before!  But, tempting offer indeed...I can't pass up on free food and travel!

I'll be back in your neck of the woods for Xmas.  PM me your # and we can catch up.


Back on topic....so say I kept the Navy mess kit and later got promoted....from what I'm reading here I could theoretically have LT(N) rings sewn on instead of Capt's rings?  The more I think of this, the confusion that would ensue whenever I went to a mess dinner would probably be more of a hassle than its worth.


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## Strike (27 Nov 2008)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Back on topic....so say I kept the Navy mess kit and later got promoted....from what I'm reading here I could theoretically have LT(N) rings sewn on instead of Capt's rings?  The more I think of this, the confusion that would ensue whenever I went to a mess dinner would probably be more of a hassle than its worth.



So...what's cheaper?  Adding a swirl or buying a whole new mess kit?  I know the gold braid is expensive and all, but... ;D  Plus, chicks dig the Navy mess kit.


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