# All Things Vegetarian/Vegan (merged)



## ab00013 (20 May 2005)

Hello,

First off I searched the site and couldn't find any info that I'm looking for. I am lacto-vegetarian which means I don't eat seafood, meat, or eggs. I am wondering which of the IMPs are vegetarian because I just finished my BMQ course and was told, to their knowledge, that the only one I could eat was Mac & Cheese, which I am really hoping is wrong 

If anyone knows it would be greatly appreciated. I have SQ and BIQ in the summer so I think it might be helpful for me to know which ones I could eat.

Thanks!!

ab00013, 
I changed the title of your thread. We decided to put all these points into one thread for ease of information.


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## mover1 (20 May 2005)

I know there are some vegetarian ones out there, I am not sure what are available any more, but you are really limiting yourself, (not that its wrong or i disagree) by your lifestyle choice and may have to bend your views in order just to survive. 
Good luck with your ideology. Go to the supermarket before you go to the field. Thats all I can suggest.


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## ab00013 (20 May 2005)

mover1 said:
			
		

> I know there are some vegetarian ones out there, I am not sure what are available any more, but you are really limiting yourself, (not that its wrong or i disagree) by your lifestyle choice and may have to bend your views in order just to survive.
> Good luck with your ideology. Go to the supermarket before you go to the field. Thats all I can suggest.



Thanks for your supermarket advice. I was told that when we went out in BMQ for field exercises and I'm glad I brought some snacks. For some reason there is no problem getting hayboxes of fried chicken, lasagna, and brownies out in the field but a can of beans is an inconvenience.  ??? 

Anyways, I was hoping for someone to respond that there is a great variety of delicious vegetarian IMPs  ;D but I guess that's wishful thinking. Thanks again!


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## shadow (20 May 2005)

I remember last year in St-Jean there was a girl on my course who was a "vegetarian".  While we were in the field she got special IMP's that included pasta dinners and granola bars etc.  I'm not sure but they might have been American?  Nonetheless, the school put in the effort to ensure they were available.  They actually looked pretty good as I was gnawing on my Salisbury Steak....


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## Britney Spears (20 May 2005)

> a great variety of delicious vegetarian IMP



I wouldn't call it a "great" variety, and I can't vouch for the taste, but kosher/halal IMPS(yes, they are  American MREs really, like the previous poster said) are vegetarian and should be available upon request. I say "should" because it takes more work to get a hold of them. Make sure your stores NCO is aware of your requirements. The same goes for boxed lunches.


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## TCBF (20 May 2005)

I have just pulled out of my desk drawer a "My Own Meal" Ration.  It has an entre in a 'bag in a box' and an accessory pack in a see through plastic bag. This is a commercial USA product, and is issued in the Canadian system as well.  Certified Halal and Kosher.  It is not an IMP or an MRE.  But, there are vegetarian MREs. The 'Black Bean and Rice Burito' comes to mind.  I ate four in one day, once.  The side dish was Mexican Rice.  They were great.  We had to open all of the Coyote hatches.  Crew wouldn't talk to me.


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## Britney Spears (20 May 2005)

Yeah, that's the one......


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## chrisf (20 May 2005)

I'll vouch for the taste of the   Kosher/Halal/Vegetarian IMPs, delicious, and when those of us who aren't Kosher/Halal/Vegetarian can get their hands on them, they're a welcome change to the normal IMPs (Though honestly, I don't mind IMPs, they're not as bad as people complain about them would have you believe).

Despite being delicious however, they do not come in a wide variety, there are only three types in the system that I am aware of. 

They also come with a stubby american sized spoon, not a nice long canadian spoon...


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## TCBF (20 May 2005)

"They also come with a stubby american sized spoon, not a nice long canadian spoon..."

Which snaps in two when you need it.  The US MREs have a good, tough, long, brown plastic spoon. 
The commercial M.O.M. has a short, but flex, white plastic spoon.  The old USA MCIs - the OD green tins in a small cardboard box - also had a short spoon, but you could set it on fire and then it was great for blackening iron sights.  (Don't try that on your ELCANs, kids).


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## chrisf (20 May 2005)

I keep hearing that, but I've never had a spoon break on me. Just lucky I suppose, but still, until I eventually have the same complaint about the Canadian spoons, I'll continue to dislike the vegetarian spoons on the basis they don't reach the bottom of the bag.

(You'll note I made no tired and predictable references to length vs skill)


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## Fusilier (20 May 2005)

Canadian Forces Food Services offers one or more vegetarian options at every meal. An estimated 10% to 15% of Canadian Forces members choose vegetarian meals for combat rations (individual meal packs) 

Below are the "offical" veggie meals...two of my staff are vegetarians, I've had them too, I like the cheese tortellini   

FLORENTINE LASAGNA  
WATER, COOKED MAFALDA (ENRICHED MACARONI PRODUCT: SEMOLINA, EGG WHILTE, NIACIN, FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMIN MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), TOMATO PASTE, RICOTTA CHEESE (PASTEURIZED WHOLE MILK, VINEGAR OR CITRIC ACID, SALT) LOW MOISTURE MOZZARELLA CHEESE (PARTIALLY SKIMMED PASTEURIZED MILK, CULTURES, SALT, ENZYMES), SPINACH, ZUCCHINI, CORNSTARCH, PINTO BEANS, ONION, PARMESAN CHEESE (PASTEURIZED MILK, CULTURE, SALT, ENZYME, SODIUM SILICO ALUMINATE, SORBIC ACID), NONFAT DRY MILK, ONION POWDER, SALT, MINCED GARLIC, SPICES.   210 Cal, 10g protein, 4.5g fat, 34g carbs

PASTA WITH GARDEN VEGETABLES
TOMATOES (TOMATOES, JUICE FROM TOMATOES, SALT, CITRIC ACID, CALCIUM CHLORIDE), WATER, COOKED ROTINI (ENRICHED MACARONI PRODUCT: SEMOLINA, EGG WHITE, NIACIN, FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMIN MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), RED AND GREEN BELL PEPPERS, ZUCCHINI, ONION, MUSHROOMS, GREEN BEANS, CELERY, CARROLTS, CORNSTARCH, TOMATO PASTE, CORN OIL, SUGAR, SALT, ONION POWDER, SPICES, PARSLEY FLAKES, PAPRIKA.   180 Cal, 5g protein, 4g fat, 31g carbs

VEGETARIAN STEW
WATER, CORN LENTILS, PEANUTS, TOMATO PASTE, POTATOES, RED AND GREEN BELL PEPPERS, COOKED SHELLS (ENRICHED MACARONI PRODUCT: SEMOLINA, EGG WHITE, NIACIN, FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMIN MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), COOKED BARLEY, TOMATOES (TOMATOES, JUICE FROM TOMATOES, SALT, CITRIC ACID, CALCIUM CHLORIDE), CORNSTARCH, ONION, PINTO BEANS, SALT, SPICES, GARLIC POWDER, LEMON JUICE, ONION POWDER, PARSLEY FLAKES.   200 Cal, 7g protein, 6g fat, 31g carb

CHEESE TORTELLINI
WATER, CHEESE TORTELLINI [DOUGH: ENRICHED DURUM FLOUR (NIACIN, FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMIN MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), WATER, EGGS, FLOUR ENRICHMENT (WHEAT STARCH, FERRIC ORTHOPHOSPHATE, NIACINAMIDE TALC, TRCALCIUM PHOSPHATE), FILLING: WHOLE MILK RICOTTA IMPASTATA CHEESE (PASTEURIXED MILK, VINEGAR OR CITRIC ACID, SALT), CRACKER MEAL (BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR), EGGS, ROMANO CHEESE (PASTEURIZED SHEEP'S MILK, SALT, EXZYMES), SALT, SPICES], TOMATOES (TOMATOES, JUICE FROM TOMATOES, SALT, CITRIC ACID, CALCIUM CHLORIDE), ONION, CELERY, PINTO BEANS, TOMATO PASTE, MODIFIED FOOD STARCH, NONFAT DRY MILK, OLIVE OIL, OPARMESAN CHEESE (PASTEURIZED MILK, CULTURE, SALT, EXZYME, SODIUM SILICO ALUMINATE, SORVIC ACID), SALT, SPICES, MINCED GARLIC, ONION POWDER, GARLIC POWDER. 250 Cal, 11g protein, 6g fat, 40g carbs

The accessory packs contain
Baked original bagel chipmix
barbeque sunflower kernels
candy - chocolate starlights
candy - cinnamon starlights
coffee creamer (nondairy)
crunchy granola bar - peanut butter
hot cocoa mix (no sugar)
instant coffee
pepper
raisins
roasted & salted peanuts
salt
smart start cereal
sugar
The Macaroni and Cheese meal is not listed as vegetarian but this is what's in it: 
 WATER, MACARONI, CHEDDAR CHEESE, CREAM, POWDERED VEGETABLE SHORTENING, MODIFIED CORNSTARCH, SOYBEAN AND COTTONSEED OIL MARGARINE, CHEESE FLAVOUR, SALT, DISODIUM PHOSPHATE, WHEAT FLOUR, SOY LECITHIN

You will have to inform your chain of command early on as they have to specifically order boxes for you. They come with 10 meals per box.   OLD Timer TIP:  if you have a stubby spoon, take the little box it came in and cut one of the long ends after cooking turn the bag on it's side and slice open the long end and place back in box...keeps the hot bag from your fingers and makes it easier to eat ...works for all meals 

If you want a list of the non-veggie meals that you may still be able to eat just email me.


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## Da_man (20 May 2005)

Who makes the IMPs?  I know its an american company.. everytime i try to remember the name to look it up on the net but i always forget it.


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## Fusilier (20 May 2005)

Used to be Freddy Chef, not sure if it still is.  Here's a site with a little more info, note it might be a little out of date

http://www.mreinfo.com/imps.html

If you look at the photos you'll see what I mean as per the cutting of the bag.

Anyone out there remember the old Ham Omlete (or bagged lung)??


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## Dave Mount (20 May 2005)

It's not called Freddy Chef, they are now called Soup Experts or something like that, in Quebec.  I have there info somewhere, send me  pm and I will look for it for Tues, off to Haliburton for fun in the sun.
The "old lung in a bag" was horrible.  It's like the Salmon Fillet, I can't get past the smell but people say it is great.


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## Redeye (20 May 2005)

The vegetarian rations are actually excellent.  I'm not a vegetarian, but because of my declared religion, keen staff when I was on course have order vegetarian rations for me before.  (I am an adherent of Buddhism, and on course once, my section 2iC was apparently of the same faith and assumed that I might well be vegetarian as well.)

They come with a great little accessory pack that makes for good trading, too.  Advise your staff long before you go to the field of your dietary requirements and they will ensure that your needs are properly met.


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## Dave Mount (20 May 2005)

I found the web address   http://www.soupexpert.com/
They also manufacture "HotPack" meals, some are self heating.   Toronto Fire Service bought a bunch.   They weren't too bad, just not enough as they were only the entree.   I have a few cases of Chicken and Veg stew, expire end of June if they are any help to you.   They should be good for months after.   
Just send me an email.


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## Fusilier (20 May 2005)

Those heaters are the cat's a***!!  No more hauling out the colman and the pressure cooker, or even heat tabs....sorry guys that was the old days I'm forgetting this is the modern army.


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## aesop081 (20 May 2005)

Fusilier said:
			
		

> I'm forgetting this is the modern army.



Says who ?

I havent gotten the e-mail making the change from old army to new army official yet so i chose to live in the old one.


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## Fusilier (24 May 2005)

aesop081 said:
			
		

> Says who ?
> 
> I havent gotten the e-mail making the change from old army to new army official yet so i chose to live in the old one.



Obviously you're new army, the old days you would have received a memo not an email.


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## aesop081 (24 May 2005)

Fusilier said:
			
		

> Obviously you're new army, the old days you would have received a memo not an email.



I wanted to say " message over the teletype" but i'm trying to get with the times  ;D


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## Fusilier (24 May 2005)

Ok neither one of us is that old  ;D.  Regardless, it's nice to see the attempts the CF is making to accomodate religion/personal choice.  Though sometimes I think we go overboard...but that is for another forum...


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## paracowboy (24 May 2005)

speaking as a CQ who has just been blind-sided by a vegetarian, make DAMN sure you give several day's advance notice to your CQ so he can actually plan to meat   your particular needs. Vegetarian meals are in the system, but few Infantry units have any on stock. (We get our vegetables by eating critters that eat plants.) Plan ahead and make things easier for your storesman, he'll appreciate it.


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## dutchie (24 May 2005)

Just to point out that the majority of the veggie IMPs (as listed in a previous post) contain eggs or egg whites, as most are pastas of some kind. The fella that originally asked about this is a lacto-vegetarian (consumes milk products, but not eggs), so he's very limited in the 'Freddy Chef' IMPs, but may have better luck with locally purchased ones (as mentioned - give lots of notice). Now, if he was a ovo-lacto vegetarian (consumes eggs and milk products), he's more or less good to go on the regular IMPs (again - give lots of notice, unless you like starving).


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## aesop081 (24 May 2005)

Caesar said:
			
		

> Just to point out that the majority of the veggie IMPs (as listed in a previous post) contain eggs or egg whites, as most are pastas of some kind. The fella that originally asked about this is a lacto-vegetarian (consumes milk products, but not eggs), so he's very limited in the 'Freddy Chef' IMPs, but may have better luck with locally purchased ones (as mentioned - give lots of notice). Now, if he was a ovo-lacto vegetarian (consumes eggs and milk products), he's more or less good to go on the regular IMPs (again - give lots of notice, unless you like starving).



For the love of everything that is good and pure in this world....how the hell is the supply system supposed to keep this shit straight ?


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## dutchie (24 May 2005)

That my friend, is the rub. I guess it's up to the member to make sure he (or she) is prepared. In this case, that means that he/she has to ensure that the CQ knows exactly what he/she will eat. Failure to be clear will result in having to make a tough choice - be effective or stick to your dietary restraints.

I'm glad I like my spot on top of the food chain.


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## TCBF (24 May 2005)

"Subject: [COLUMN] Yes, we need to hunt

http://www.tbsource.com/tbSPORTS/index.asp?cid=70300

tbSPORTS

Yes, we need to hunt

Mick Bohonis - Outdoor Life
Web Posted: 10/1/2004 9:48:10 AM


Dr. Mark Vennu is a medical doctor, nutritionist, sport scientist, and 'non-hunter'. He discusses his diet,  which is a wild game diet. Dr. Vennu eats Stone Age, Pleistocene, foods. A new thing on the market you ask?

Hardly, because this diet has been eaten by humans for 99.5 per cent of our time on earth. According to this nutritionist, our bodies evolved eating a wild game diet. This diet lowers fat and decreases heart disease and cancer. It is a diet that erect walking 'humans' have eaten for seven million years and it
is simple. This doctor is one of many who believe that humans today would be much healthier if they consumed the original hunters' diet. Wild game, fruit and vegetables. Here is a nutritionist telling the world, telling vegetarians, telling all the fast food, junk food eaters, that wild game is the basis for man's
health. He says the 'nutritional quality of such meat (venison, bison, mammoths) differs considerably from that of meat available in the modern North American supermarkets. The latter has much more fat.'

Admit it, we've all had a big jug of water standing by one time or another when the fat is just oozing out of your 3' thick triple by-pass burgers on the bar-be-cue, and then pile on the processed cheese. The ensuing grease fire would make any pyromaniac jealous. 

Not only is there more fat in domesticated animals, its composition is different. Wild game contains over five times more polyunsaturated fat per gram than is found in domestic livestock. The fat in wild game meat contains one polyunsaturated fatty acid that helps to reduce arteriosclerosis (heart attacks). Wild game helps to reduce clogged arteries. Doctors have shown that the Paleolithic diet differed significantly from what we humans eat today.

So what does all of this mean you ask? It is quite simple. Wild game, fruits and vegetables provided early hunters with lots of protein, adequate carbohydrates, very low fats, more polyunsaturated fats, lots of
fiber, much less sodium, and plenty of calcium. This is without eating diary products, which, didn't evolve until 4000 years ago. And if modern day humans eat wild game, they will get the same benefits.

Because Paleolithic human beings consumed a very high amount of meat, they ingested a relatively high amount of cholesterol. This was offset by the low fat in their diet. Wild game meat has substantially less fat than domesticated animals. 
Anyway you slice it , a wild game diet is important for man today. Dr Eaton, Dr. Vennu, and a slate full of other doctors and nutritionists now believe that our nutritional diet requirements were established in prehistoric times when much of the diet was wild game.

Man evolved eating wild game and genetically we have changed only 1.6 percent over the past six to seven million years. So at a time when the antis continually tell anyone who will listen that 'modern man' has somehow changed in the last 50 years and that we do not need to hunt for meat, are in La La land.

A rapidly growing group of nutritionists and dietary experts are saying wild game SHOULD BE in our diet.

This 'Flintstone Diet' idea creates a problem for the antis who say that we humans can get meat in our diets without hunting. But if it is wild game that provides the best nutrition and health benefits, then hello, hunting may be the politically correct thing to do. Did I say politically correct? Yeah right! Hunting politically correct? Are all the BMW driving, leather wearing, Golden Horseshoe Citidiots ready for this?

The fact that a wild game diet is good for us should come as no surprise. When you realize that humans have been immersed in the woods for millions of years it seems logical that man does need to hunt. We've evolved as hunters for over seven million years, but the antis would have society believe that some dramatic change has happened to humans in recent years and thus, hunting is bad for us. It is now hunting season, and I will guarantee you that there will be loads of moose hunters heading for their favorite spots pursuing the Monarch of the north. The elusive swamp donkey! Good luck."


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## paracowboy (24 May 2005)

aesop081 said:
			
		

> For the love of everything that is good and pure in this world....how the heck is the supply system supposed to keep this crap straight ?


no insult intended to anyone who has the sort of delusion that animals have rights but, I honestly think that vegetarianism should be considered a category, keeping them from deploying. Just having one attached to us for 3 weeks about gave me, the RQMS, and the KO fits trying to feed the troop in question. It puts an unnecessary strain on an already sometimes-shaky supply system (cool! Alliteration!). With enough advance notice (weeks, not days, and certainly not hours  : ) perhaps we can stockpile, but then, it still becomes an issue with haybox meals, and fresh rats. No disrespect intended to their beliefs, and I applaud their willingness to serve, but it's simply another pain when you're trying to ensure that 130 + pers are fed. 

Don't get me started on trying to convince a devout young man that he NEEDS to eat at least once a day even during Ramadan. Almost had to hospitalize the youngster. But, I digress. Again. (You guys have to stop me when I get on these tangents, or we'll never get anywhere.)

Bottom line troop, make sure that your Chain of Command, and corresponding Supply System know about your dietary requirements WELL in advance, to lessen heartaches all around. Thus endeth the sermon.


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## aesop081 (24 May 2005)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> no insult intended to anyone who has the sort of delusion that animals have rights but, I honestly think that vegetarianism should be considered a category, keeping them from deploying. Just having one attached to us for 3 weeks about gave me, the RQMS, and the KO fits trying to feed the troop in question. It puts an unnecessary strain on an already sometimes-shaky supply system (cool! Alliteration!). With enough advance notice (weeks, not days, and certainly not hours   : ) perhaps we can stockpile, but then, it still becomes an issue with haybox meals, and fresh rats. No disrespect intended to their beliefs, and I applaud their willingness to serve, but it's simply another pain when you're trying to ensure that 130 + pers are fed.
> 
> Don't get me started on trying to convince a devout young man that he NEEDS to eat at least once a day even during Ramadan. Almost had to hospitalize the youngster. But, I digress. Again. (You guys have to stop me when I get on these tangents, or we'll never get anywhere.)
> 
> Bottom line troop, make sure that your Chain of Command, and corresponding Supply System know about your dietary requirements WELL in advance, to lessen heartaches all around. Thus endeth the sermon.



Just so we are clear, i totaly agree with you...even before you said it.  With sufficient advanced notice it is possible to accomodate sldiers who have a medical reason not to eat certain foods.  But what happens in some third-hole country on the other side of the world when the supply system is less than reliable ?   For those soldier that make a personal decision not to eat certain things ( meat for example).......well, sometimes you just may have to suck it up or suffer.


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## ab00013 (24 May 2005)

Thanks for the advice everyone. I will definitely make sure I let them know way ahead of time that I am a lacto-vegetarian. 

Being in the reserves only since last summer I don't really know how the supply system works or how complicated it can be. However, with regards to keeping vegetarians from being deployed, I think that non-vegetarians don't understand how simple it can be to keep us (vegetarians) accommodated. Simple foods that you can get pretty much anywhere in the world such as beans and vegetables, rice, and grains are all we ask for. By the way all of which are non-perishable.  Me personally, I'd be happy with a can of beans, a can of vegetables, and some rice for supper  ;D

Anyways, thanks everyone again for you advice. I knew when I joined that I might run into some difficulties being a vegetarian. So far everyone has been very understanding. The acceptance of diversity within the Canadian Forces and Canada in general, is something to be very proud of. This acceptance is what uniquely makes us Canadian.


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## paracowboy (24 May 2005)

ab00013 said:
			
		

> This acceptance is what uniquely makes us Canadian.


well, no, not really. I've met Brits and Yanks who suffer from the same sort of eating disorder, and they eat pretty well too, thanks to their armies. As for your point about eating foods grown in other nations: You don' get to do dat. We don't eat on the local economy. Ztrictly verboten. So, that's where it becomes an issue on deployments. You don't just stroll downtown and pick up a zucchini burger, or wander into the nearest rice field.

Anyway, this horse is pretty well beaten, so I'm outta here.
Luck.


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## ab00013 (25 May 2005)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> I've met Brits and Yanks who suffer from the same sort of eating disorder



 Wow! I don't even know where to start with that comment. An eating disorder? The recruiting medic said that it was no problem and oddly enough his son is a vegan! 

Anyways, without getting into a moral discussion, I will just clarify what I meant by my last posting to make sure people really didn't think I was that ignorant that I would not understand the health reasons for not eating local foods. I know that you can't just go get food from the locals! What I meant was that if the UN and other organizations can distribute food rations such as rice, grains, and beans to people around the world than the Canadian Forces should have no problem giving its soldiers the same foods.

Well, just wanted to clarify what I meant.


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## Dave Mount (26 May 2005)

My father at 71 went on a diet similar to the on TCBF and Dr. Vennue talk about.  He lost a crap load of weight in a small amount of time, he went from looking like a healthy man to a feeble old one.  This diet has completely changed his metabolism. Now he eats like a horse and can't put any weight on.  Screwing with things should be done carefully.


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## Britney Spears (26 May 2005)

It seems to me that strictly speaking, Ramadan has enough exceptions which would allow one to eat without breaking the spirit of the rule. 

From Wikipedia:



> Ã…Å¾awm or Ã…Å¸iyÃ„?m, fasting
> 
> Observance of the Siyam involves abstinence from eating, drinking, smoking, sexual intercourse, and other forms of worldly pleasure. This fasting is ordained in the Qur'an, and is observed by devout Muslims throughout the daylight hours of the 29 or 30 days of the lunar month of Ramadan. There are some exceptions, for example for children, pregnant women, sick Muslims, laborers, and travelers.



Generally speaking none of the religious regulations are designed to actually harm(i.e. hospitalize) the adherent or make daily life needlessly burdensome. THis is true of all major religions, they can't survive if they ask too much of the believers.


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## ab00013 (26 May 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> It seems to me that strictly speaking, Ramadan has enough exceptions which would allow one to eat without breaking the spirit of the rule.



You're right Ramadan allows Muslims to eat only when the sun is down. I am not Muslim but I went to school with some Muslims and straight from the Holy Quran it states:

"One may eat and drink at any time during the night until you can plainly distinguish a white thread from a black thread by the daylight: then keep the fast until night" 

Surely the Canadian Forces could accomodate this. Simply have the soldier have their food earlier in the morning when the sun is still down or later at night.  All it takes is being a little innovative


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## paracowboy (26 May 2005)

ab00013 said:
			
		

> You're right Ramadan allows Muslims to eat only when the sun is down. I am not Muslim but I went to school with some Muslims and straight from the Holy Quran it states:
> 
> "One may eat and drink at any time during the night until you can plainly distinguish a white thread from a black thread by the daylight: then keep the fast until night"
> 
> Surely the Canadian Forces could accomodate this. Simply have the soldier have their food earlier in the morning when the sun is still down or later at night.   All it takes is being a little innovative


first: lighten up, Francis. It was a joke! Next time, I'll be more careful about puttin' one of those smiley face thingies in. You wanna live on grass and hay, you go right ahead! More animal flesh for me!  ;D
Second: yes, Ramadan allows adherents to Islam to eat before and after sunrise. But, a Reg Force Infantry Battle School is not the place to try and follow any sort of dietary restrictions. You need a lot of calories to get through an average day, more when you're playing in the woods. You burn a lot of calories and ain't gettin' much sleep. (Or at least that's how it used to be). As for innovation, forget it. That is not the purpose of Battle School. It is a mass-production machine designed to turn civilian boys into soldiers. As such, it has built-in cogs that must be allowed to turn in their own time or the machine breaks down. Between patrolling, digging, radio watch, stove watch, and Stand-To's, there ain't a lot of time for 'innovation'. Add to that the fact that the youngster in question was a convert (therefore not necessarily educated in his new-found faith, and also fairly fanatical as most converts are) and already under considerable stress, and he just wasn't eating. By sundown, all he wanted to do was sleep. So, he'd skip a meal. Then, he'd be woken up twice throughout the night so, he'd try to squeeze in an extra couple winks and would skip breakfast. All in all, it wasn't a good time for him until the boys in his section convinced him that Allah would understand if he ate.  :
The CF rules at 'innovation'. It's how we keep our vehicles rollin' and flyin'. But this is The Army. We do things in a certain way for certain reasons, and the Individual is expendable. Bottom line. You give to The Army, and whenever possible or rather, practicable, The Army will attempt to give back. That's why it's called Service.
There's a lesson there for you as well. If the Army can't meat (can't resist) your dietary requirements at times, you may have to simply place your convictions on hold, and eat a ham sammich once in a while. We all make sacrifices. And hey, I'm more than willing to eat your share of the bacon. I'm good that way.  
Anyway, your question was answered and I can't think of any more ways to harass you, so luck to you on your quest, and I'm gonna go find someone else to tease. You got any more questions I can help with, send a pm.


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## mainerjohnthomas (27 May 2005)

ab00013 said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> First off I searched the site and couldn't find any info that I'm looking for. I am lacto-vegetarian which means I don't eat seafood, meat, or eggs. I am wondering which of the IMPs are vegetarian because I just finished my BMQ course and was told, to their knowledge, that the only one I could eat was Mac & Cheese, which I am really hoping is wrong
> 
> ...


     You still can't convince me that they are food, let alone pick a food group.  I mean really, you can use the chicklets to engrave your initiallys on your APC.  Thats not food.  If they gave you one that consisted only of veggies, it would still look like something that drowned in 1945, and was embalmed in early 68.


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## TCBF (28 May 2005)

"My father at 71 went on a diet similar to the on TCBF and Dr. Vennue talk about."

- Sorry, I wasn't aware wild game was a fad diet, per se.  Someone trying to make a fast buck would have to screw it up to actually hurt people.  As an example, even though an arctic wild fish/seal/caribou diet is high protein, it will pile on the muscle density rather than do the Karen Carpenter thing. 

Religion and rations: The CF is far more accomodating to our religious minorities than other armies are to those religions where they are the majority.  Iran and Iraq fought an eight year war.. You can bet some accomodations were made due to combat and military necessity.


----------



## Manimal (30 Jul 2005)

i hope they are wrong too, because most cheese (and all boxed mac and cheese) has rennet in it, and some have lipase, these produces come from cow blood, and stomach enzymes. they are not in a vegetarian diet. sorry


----------



## JasonH (30 Jul 2005)

TCBF said:
			
		

> I have just pulled out of my desk drawer a "My Own Meal" Ration.  It has an entre in a 'bag in a box' and an accessory pack in a see through plastic bag. This is a commercial USA product, and is issued in the Canadian system as well.  Certified Halal and Kosher.  It is not an IMP or an MRE.  But, there are vegetarian MREs. The 'Black Bean and Rice Burito' comes to mind.  I ate four in one day, once.  The side dish was Mexican Rice.  They were great.  We had to open all of the Coyote hatches.  Crew wouldn't talk to me.



Ahaha evil basterd  >


----------



## neuromancer (31 Jul 2005)

Hello,

I've been a Vegan for the past little while, and I'm interested in joining the CF Full-Time.
I have my written test, medical, and physical tests booked for August 11th (3 tests in one day!)

Im a little worried that I wont be able to keep my diet as a member of the CF and I'll
just be told what to eat, etc, etc, etc.

Are there any Vegans in the CF? What are my options for food?

I dont have any reason for being vegan other than personal choice, I just dont want
cancer/heart disease/ etc, etc, and feel that I can be perfectly healthy eating a
complete vegan diet.

Thanks!


----------



## Britney Spears (31 Jul 2005)

Hmm, oddly enough, this is one of those self selecting, self fulfilling prophesies. 

If you have time to worry about your vegan diet, then I suppose you probably should stick to being a vegan. 

Man that was DEEP.


----------



## Gouki (31 Jul 2005)

neuromancer said:
			
		

> I dont have any reason for being vegan other than personal choice,_ I just dont want
> cancer/heart disease/ etc, et_c, and feel that I can be perfectly healthy eating a
> complete vegan diet.
> Thanks!



...Heh. Not worth my time touching that one.

To answer your question though.. My mother is one. It was rough for her in the field (although it wouldn't have been if she had taken some Soy protein bars like I suggested and she later regretted not doing) but all in all, she made it through. They did make an effort to satisfy her demands, and a few others on her course (a Hindu who obviously had some different needs) and gave them individually prepared meals. In the field she survived on grape juice - that was the hardest for her. Someone dropped the ball and for 2 days she had terribly nutritional intake, but luckily someone took control of the situation and got the meals delivered for her on time.

In the end .. overall it was fine with a few rough spots.


----------



## neuromancer (31 Jul 2005)

Hmm.. interesting thread!

Just thought it might help if I posted a *little* information concerning vegetables.

Tell me if you see a pattern...

Greece: Percentage of death from heart disease, diabetes, stroke and cancer: 35%
           Percentage of calories from unrefined plant food (uncooked vegetables): 32%

Mexico:  Percentage of death from heart disease, diabetes, stroke and cancer: 25%
           Percentage of calories from unrefined plant food (uncooked vegetables): 45%

Korea:  Percentage of death from heart disease, diabetes, stroke and cancer: 21%
          Percentage of calories from unrefined plant food (uncooked vegetables): 59%

Thailand:  Percentage of death from heart disease, diabetes, stroke and cancer: 12%
             Percentage of calories from unrefined plant food (uncooked vegetables): 74%

Laos:  Percentage of death from heart disease, diabetes, stroke and cancer: 6%
        Percentage of calories from unrefined plant food (uncooked vegetables): 92%


Know what that means folks? Heart disease, stroke, diabetes, and yes.. CANCER are preventable 
by simply eating a diet of MOSTLY fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds.  

Lets compare that to what they eat in the USA

USA
Percentage of deaths from Heart Disease, Stroke, Diabetes, and All Cancer: 78%
Percentage of calories from uncooked unrefined plant foods: 14%

Call me crazy if you want to, but just because I want to join the CF doesnt mean I 
want to die by a bullet to the head, and I definitly dont want a heart attack, stroke or even cancer.

Did someone say Vegetarians had an eating dis-order? *smug cough*  ;D


----------



## Britney Spears (31 Jul 2005)

I see you're new to the whole "Causation/Correlation" business.


----------



## Manimal (31 Jul 2005)

i cut all meat out of my diet at once, and for years i was pretty unhealthy. i eat special low fat cheese with the only animal product being milk, and i eat eggs. no fish, chicken or meat.....but cutting meat out of your diet should be done over a number of years (7 years is the number i've heard the most) and i'm sure you are aware, that a well balanced diet mixing the proper carbs and veggies with fruit is essential. it's never a bad idea to help  your diet along with a complex B vitamin suppliment, it helps the body deal with the stress hormones which will act up when diet is changed like that.
 you may find your self taking longer to heal from simple injuries or cuts, that means you are missing something.
fatigue could be from a lack of iron in your diet, spinach is great for that.

but for your concerns about heart/stroke and cancer, eat everything green, or high in vitamin C, or E. 
nuts are great, but high in fat, and have to be fresh, old nuts their oil can to bad and it becomes a cancer causing agent.

i'm concered about the diet when i get to BMQ too, but that's not until Nov.
your diet right now is very important to keep it building a healthy body, so keep it tight now, and it will be better for you if you get hit hard in CF.


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## neuromancer (31 Jul 2005)

...and by that do you mean you're new to the whole "nutrition/health" business?

How about some facts?

The facts of the matter are than in the recent decades there have been over 3500 scientific 
studies involving over 15,000 research scientists all reporting a relationship between the consuption of 
meats, poultry, eggs, and dairy products and the incidence of heart disease, cancer, kidney failure, 
constipation, gallstones, diverticulosis, and hemorrhoides, just to name a few health problems.

If you would *like* to believe but want more facts, an easy way to find out is to Google for 
the "China-Cornell-Oxford Project", which is the most comprehensive large study ever undertaken 
in modern history of the relationship between diet and the risk of developing disease.

Go and find out for yourself, it will be a lot easier than you and me arguing about facts.


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## neuromancer (31 Jul 2005)

Yes, vitamin B12 is essential for vegans.

Other important factors are Omega3's and well as vitamin D.

A good source of Omega3's are flax seeds. Vitamin D is produced naturally in your skin tissue when it is exposed
to summer-time sunlight and then stored in the liver for year round usage.

Being healthy does take a little forthought and effort, but its well worth the effort.

How much thought and effort do you put into maintaining your car, or your gun? Will you have
that car, or gun or whatever.. in 10 years? 20 year? 50 years? You'll still have the same body, so
better take good care of it or.. or you wont have to worry about anything at all.

However, for those who might worry that I wouldn't eat enless its veggie and endanger
myself in some way, let me just say it now.. I would eat meat rather than endanger myself.

A little meat is not going to kill you if you have no other choice, especially if you
are already a healthy person.

However, I've never been in a situation where I had no choice in the matter.

Loaf of bread, can o'beans and Im happy as a clam in soup.


----------



## Manimal (31 Jul 2005)

after a number of years of not eating beef, if i eat something that has beef fat/lard in it, or cooked in it. my stomach will let me know. 
beef is very heavy to digest, and if you don't do it for a long tme, it's painful to try.

mcdonalds used to have they fries cooked or coated in beef fat, unaware of this, i did eat them a few times, the last time was when i was told about the beef fat. i always thought it was just the orange pop that was too sweet and upset my stomach.

even if the grill is saturated with beef/meat fat, and my food it cooked in it, i feel it within an hour.

go beans and flaxseeds....


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## P-Free (31 Jul 2005)

neuromancer said:
			
		

> I just dont want
> cancer/heart disease/ etc, etc,



Hey I eat meat and I want cancer and heart disease  :


----------



## Hunter911 (31 Jul 2005)

neuromancer said:
			
		

> Yes, vitamin B12 is essential for vegans.
> 
> Other important factors are Omega3's and well as vitamin D.
> 
> ...



Actually... the best source of omega 3 is fish oil... you can get bottles of it at the grocery store, pharmacy's, or if your really picky... even from the manufacturer directly


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## Mappy (31 Jul 2005)

> Hey I eat meat and I want cancer and heart disease



what??


You cannot totally avoid cancer.  Some types can be somewhat preventable, however some cannot.  However having a good diet is good because of other health reasons.....HOWEVER...you have to make sure that you are getting all your essential nutirients.  The one thing that comes to mind is iron intake because I believe if you become anemic one of the effects is being tired (something you dont want while on basic). Just because you are a vegan doesn't mean you can't get all your essential nutrients, however it is hard to do so, even in the civy world.  But one thing I would not recommend is giving up and eating meat on course, you will definitly get sick!


----------



## Britney Spears (31 Jul 2005)

Are you claiming that a "vegan" diet is superior to a normal, helathy, balanced diet composed of all major food groups?


----------



## Ex-Dragoon (31 Jul 2005)

I always thought the problem was over eating and undereating certains foods that caused problems?


----------



## Britney Spears (31 Jul 2005)

> I always thought the problem was over eating and undereating certains foods that caused problems?



Throw lack of excercise in there and you're pretty much on.


----------



## paracowboy (31 Jul 2005)

don't be crazy! Obviously, eating the sorts of things we've been eating for millennia, is simply wrong and unhealthy. Anybody can see that.


----------



## neuromancer (31 Jul 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> Are you claiming that a "vegan" diet is superior to a normal, healthy, balanced diet composed of all major food groups?



Exactly, I'm glad you understand what I'm saying.

Allow me to explain, because maybe you think I'm kidding.

Since early childhood we have been bombarded with incorrect nutritional dietary advice, and
unfortunately the scandal continues today.

Lets look at the role of the U.S. Department of Agriculture. The role of the USDA was 
originally to promote the products of the animal agriculture industry.
Over fifty years ago the USDA began promoting the so-called four basic food groups
with meat and dairy in the number one and number two spots on the list. 
Financed by the meat and dairy industry, and backed by nutritional scientists on the payroll
of the meat and dairy industry, this promotion ignored science that was known
even back at that time.

The program could be more accurately labeled "the four food myths." It was taught
in every classroom in American, and by extension also in Canada, with posters
advocating a diet loaded with animal protein, fat, and cholesterol. The results
have been most dramatic -- in more ways than one. North America began eating
more and more animal foods. The campaign sparked the beginning of the fastest-growing
cancer epidemic in history and heart attack and stroke rates have soared ever since
to previously unheard levels. These figure are consistant in every country that has
since adopted the North American style of diet.

Now with all the scientific data available today, including massive investigational studies
on human health and diet, you would think that people today would know which 
foods are best to eat and why -- but most people are still confused, and some are
more confused than ever (Atkins Diet).

Why? For starters, the American Government spends $20 billion a year on price supports
that benefit the beef, dairy, and veal industrys. This money is given to farmers to artificially
reduce the cost of crops used to feed cows, thereby helping to reduce the prices we pay
for dairy foods, fowl, and meat. The meat and dairy industry is huge and powerful, they
don't exactly like the idea of being renamed "the cancer and stroke industry"

In 1998 the National Cancer Institute budgeted one million dollars to promote the virtues of
fruits and vegetables. Compare that with McDonalds and the 500 million dollars they spent on
T.V. ads alone that year. The major cause of all diseases afflicting people in the west today
is produce-deficient diet.

Based on an exhaustive look at research data from around the world over the past 15 years, 
the recommendation is that your diet should contain over 90% of its calories from unrefined plant
foods. 

This high percentage of nutrient-dense plant foods in the diet allows us to empirically predict
freedom from cancer, heart attacks, diabetes, and excess body weight. Fruits, vegetables,
and beans must be the *base* of the food pyramid; otherwise, you will be in a heap of trouble
down the road. Guaranteed.

The diseases that afflict, and eventually kill, almost all North Americans can be avoided. You can
live a high-quality, disease free life and remain physically active and healthy. You can die
peacefully and uneventfully at a ripe old age, as nature intended, but in order to do so you
must throw-out the incorrect notion of "a diet balanced in the four major food groups" unless
by "balance" you mean only 10% of calories coming from things other than plant-foods.

For example if you consume 2500 calories per day, 10% of that would be 250 calories, 250 calories 
equals about 2.5 oz. of steak. The rest of your daily calories would have to come from plant-foods.

Hope that clears it up.

Nutrients Present in 100-Calorie portions of selected foods


 Broccoli  Sirloin Romain LettuceProtein 11.2g  5.4g  11.6g Calcium 182mg  2.4mg  257mg Iron 2.2mg  0.7mg 7.9mg Magnesium 71.5 mg  5 mg  43mgPotassium 643mg  88mg  2,071mgFiber 10.7g  0  12g Phytochemicalsvery high 0 very highAntioxidantsvery high0very highFolate 107mcg  3mcg  971mcg B20.29mcg0.04mcg0.71mcgNiacin1.64mg1.1mg3.6mgZinc1.1mg1.2mg1.8mgVitamin C143mg0171mgVitamin A6,757 IU24 IU18,571 IUVitamin E5mg03.2mgCholesterol055mg0Saturated Fat01.7g0Weight357g25g714g


Notice how much more vegetable matter you must consume by weight
as compared to meat products? This allows your stomach to feel full while
not having to gorge yourself with thousands of excess calories and fat
which end leading to obesity, and disease.


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## GerryCan (31 Jul 2005)

I have a good buddy that is a vegan. While we were in Battle School he let the instructors know about it and they informed the kitchen. They brought a different meal for him and another vegan that was on course at the time, plus there are vegetarian rations in the system. Get used to eat the same shit over and over in the mess halls though, they normally don't have a huge selection for vegans there.


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## neuromancer (31 Jul 2005)

Hunter911 said:
			
		

> Actually... the best source of omega 3 is fish oil... you can get bottles of it at the grocery store, pharmacy's, or if your really picky... even from the manufacturer directly



Its always best to get your fats as nature packaged them, unprocessed, unheated, and inside natural packages.

If you want fish oil then eat fish, not capsules.

I strongly recommend fish over meat, but even then, not more than twice per week.

Fish is one of the most poluted foods we eat, and it may place consumers at high risk for various cancers.

Finland consumes lots of fish, their mortality rate from coronary heart disease is one of the highest in the world.

In some instances, such as with PCB's in Great Lakes trout and salmon, it can be shown that a person would have to drink
the water for 100 years to accumulate the same quantity of PCB present in a single half-pound portion of these fish, reported
John J. Black, Ph. D. senior research scientist for the Roswell Park Memorial Institue to the American Cancer Society.

Also, fish oil has a high tendancy to be rancid by the time it is ingested, crack the capsule, if it tastes like gasoline its rancid.
Consuming rancid fish oil puts a hugh strain on your liver.

Instead, I recommend eating Omega3's in a natural and healthy form.
Flaxseed, Walnuts, Tofu, and Soybeans.


Also, anyone insterested in health and vegetables will probably be interested to read what was
posted in this thread http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/30884/post-246390.html#msg246390


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## Manimal (31 Jul 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> Are you claiming that a "vegan" diet is superior to a normal, healthy, balanced diet composed of all major food groups?



i would claim that. 
i eat milk, and eggs, 
but a balanced diet without meat, eggs, fish or cheese, is Superior to one with them.
out intestines, is unlike any meat eating animal, it's too long to deal with meat effective.
our teeth are not made for it. (compared to other meat eaters)
our bodies (bowels and teeth) look like that of animals that eat nuts, and fruits (including veggies)
all things should be ingested in moderation. too much soy is very bad for you, a little is good for you.
too many nuts are bad, too much olive oil, too much wine   :crybaby: etc
 a little meat isn't going to kill you, but only because your body is use to it. give it up for a few years, you're body will reject the idea of digestionit again. (and i know at least two other vegetariansthat have had trouble going back to meat)
but meat eaters will never really understand, not a day goes by where someone at works make fun of the meals i bring.
"my GOD where is the meat on your pasta?, or how do you make chili without meat?" it's called beans LOL

one other thing..... what's this icon?   :bullet: oh, it says bullet LOL


----------



## canadianblue (31 Jul 2005)

> I dont have any reason for being vegan other than personal choice, I just dont want
> cancer/heart disease/



I eat meat in every single one of my meals, and I have never had a single health problem, no allergies, no broken bones, nothing.


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## Manimal (31 Jul 2005)

i would never recommend fish. it's a sponge, anything in the water, is 200-500% higher in the fishes meat.

i've seen people that eat meat everyday for 75 years, and they die at an old age of heart disease or stroke.
some of cancer.... they lived a long life, and well, they died.

but i've seen other people that die at 45 sometimes younger, a friend at 28, and they liked to drink, smoke, use drugs, and their bodies shut down, and they die.... 

diet is not  the only factor, but it's a big one.
i don't eat meat, i have high blood pressure, i will likely die the same way most of my family goes, heart disease!
they all ate meat, and smoked.... and none of them had these problems until in their late adult years. i have them at 25!
they are no guarantee


----------



## Gouki (31 Jul 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> Are you claiming that a "vegan" diet is superior to a normal, helathy, balanced diet composed of all major food groups?



It wouldn't surprise me, if so he wouldn't be the first vegan I've met who've claimed nutritional (and many times moral) superiority to the poor, uneducated cavemen who eat meat such as myself.


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## Britney Spears (31 Jul 2005)

Your nutritional advice isn't BAD, and may be appropriate for some people who do subsist on garbage and look like it. I would agree with you that the average North American does not eat enough vegetables and too much sugar and fat, but that's just common sense. On the other hand none of the above readings are advocating a completely "vegan" diet either. A proportion of 10% meat/dary to 90% vegetables and whole grains sounds like a low but fairly reasonable starting point, especially for a sedentary lifestyle,  but you also have to take into account your activity level, age, and individual metabolism too. High protein foods are a must during periods of moderate to intense physical activity, if you want to avoid excessive loss of muscle mass. Ever try running a marathon on a  vegan diet? 

The "Mediterranean/Asian Diet" is over-geenralized. The Japanese consume prodigious amounts of animal protein, and fish like salmon are loaded in fat. 

"Vegan" is a completely arbitrary line that might be in the right direction for some people, but still an arbitrary line. Marketing firms like to have simple absolute rules that they can belt out at people who can't be bothered to think too much.  Healthy, active  people who already eat well balanced diets like the ones your sources advocate- and none of them, as far as I can tell, advocate the complete elimination of ALL animal foods indefinitely,  have no use for it.

Right now, I spend most of my day surfing army.ca, so my intake of meat and dairy is quite low, but I've been on courses and deployments where I ate about 1 lb of meat alone PER DAY, and believe me I needed every little bit of it to keep me going. Don't get tied up with this "all meat is bad" stuff and make intelligent choices according to the situation.


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## neuromancer (31 Jul 2005)

Futuretrooper said:
			
		

> I eat meat in every single one of my meals, and I have never had a single health problem, no allergies, no broken bones, nothing.



You have about an 80% chance of dying from cancer, stroke, heat disease, or diabetes. 

Someday it will happen.

But for me, I would rather take "old age, peacefully, in my sleep" rather than "in pain from heart disease, at a hospital".


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## neuromancer (31 Jul 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> Ever try running a marathon on a  vegan diet?



Yes I have, and so did this guy.. Scott Jurek, he is a vegan and just broke the record for one 
of the world-class ultra-running marathons hardest races by more than 30 minutes. The next closest competitor
was 2 hours behind him.

"For food, Jurek, a vegan, ate energy bars and gels, potatoes and rice balls, chased by soy protein drinks and electrolyte capsules. He consumed 60-120 calories every 20-30 minutes, mostly on the run."

If you think vegans are skinny or weak, please check http://www.veganbodybuilding.org/

EDIT: one thing I forgot to mention was that it seems you are suffering from a very common
missconception: "you cant get protien or calcium from vegetables and require daily doses of milk and meat."

If you would like some very good information on why that isnt true I'll be happy to provide it.

Cheers




			
				http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/othersports/233630_jurek22.html said:
			
		

> *Seattle man amazes everyone in 135-mile marathon--including himself
> 
> By KRISTIN DIZON
> SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER
> ...


----------



## beach_bum (31 Jul 2005)

You could also walk across the street tomorrow and get hit by a bus.  Eating a healthy, well-balanced meal is important, and whether or not it includes meat is individual choice.  Nothing is going to guarantee you will die peacefully in your sleep at an old age.  It just doesn't work that way.  I happen to eat meat because I like it.  That's my choice....doesn't mean I'm going to die a horrible nasty death in some hospital.   :


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## neuromancer (31 Jul 2005)

Steve said:
			
		

> It wouldn't surprise me, if so he wouldn't be the first vegan I've met who've claimed nutritional (and many times moral) superiority to the poor, uneducated cavemen who eat meat such as myself.



wow.


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## Gouki (31 Jul 2005)

Neuromancer, are you becoming another Wayne Coady?


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## Fishbone Jones (31 Jul 2005)

My grandmother is 98 and eats meat every day.


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## Britney Spears (31 Jul 2005)

> If you think vegans are skinny or weak, please check http://www.veganbodybuilding.org/



I'm afraid I don't see any evidence here indicating that a vegan diet is BETTER than a regular one, especially without the use of various supplements. Factor in things like time/ease of preperation, cost, taste, and convenience, and I fail to see any advantages, although with a lot of creative cooking and eating a wide variety of foods, vegan diets are JUST AS healthy, but no more so. Since I enjoy the taste of meat so much, and our cooks are a "Tier 1" outfit compared to the rest of the world, vegan is a no-go for me personally. 

Now having said that, since the topic is still IMPs, you may find it needlessly bothersome to attempt to maintain a strict vegan diet under adverse conditions. While I fully support your choice of a vegan lifestyle under normal circumstances, keep in mind that the mission always comes first, and you should not be adverse to enjoying an odd critter or two when the other lifestyle choice(soldier) demands it.


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## SHELLDRAKE!! (31 Jul 2005)

I have to agree with Britney on that. By trying to maintain a strictly vegan diet in the CF you will undoubtedly run in to trouble. You may think "I will bring enough vegan food to get me through this week that they have called me out to the ice storm". Then a month later when your still sitting in some blacked out high school suffering from starvation because you wont eat the ham omlette IMP, you may be singing a different tune.

 Nothing against your beliefs but you have to look at all the possibilities.


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## the 48th regulator (31 Jul 2005)

Any chance we can merge the two threads....

Vegetarian IMPs ?

dileas

tess

I'm off to the barby, T-Bone tonight, with Veggy Castle lager barley salads...


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## Recce41 (31 Jul 2005)

You got to be 5hitting me. Now Veggie meals. I'm getting sick of this crap.


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## MikeM (31 Jul 2005)

Hope you aren't planning on going to be apart of a "hard" MOC that will have to make due with whatever is given to them when deployed. 

Don't expect to eat any special dietary meals in an OP in A'Stan.

Good luck in the CF.


----------



## the 48th regulator (31 Jul 2005)

> Don't expect to eat any special dietary meals in an OP in A'Stan.



Hey MikeM,

What was food like while you were there?

dileas

tess


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## Britney Spears (31 Jul 2005)

Heh, " You just joined today? Well, I joined last week, and boy, let me tell you what the OLD army was like......" 

(Thanks Big Bad John)


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## neuromancer (1 Aug 2005)

Ok, Im going to try to make this as short and simple as I can because Im actually in the middle
of moving at the moment, I have tonight and tomorrow to do all of it. eek.

Anyway, I've heard so much"mah mama is 234 years old and chews leather for breakfast" that  my ears want to bleed.

Let me make this clear, just because you are still alive does not mean you are healthy.

I've got news for all you people who eat the typical north American diet. By the time you reach 40, your chance of
atherosclerosis (hardening) of your blood vessels is over 95%. You may think "heart disease won't happen to me!"
but bad news bud, it already has happened, and the chance you are going to die someday from your atherosclerosis is about 50%.

FACT: Heart disease is the #1 killer in the United States, accounting for more than 40% of all deaths.

FACT: Each year approximately 1.5 million Americans suffer a heart attack or myocardial infarction; nearly 500,000
of them die as a result.

My grandma might be the exception to the rule, maybe your grandma too. 
But 1.5 million people are not the exception, they are the rule.

The RULE: Eat a fatty diet of meat, milk, eggs, and poltry and you will die before your time.

The NEW RULE: Change to a diet of mostly plant-foods and most, if not all, of this hurt can be avoided.

Ok, now, some people have said "but this is not a complete vegan diet, your only saying 90% of calories needs to be plant-food".
True. However, in all the studys done including the Cambridge-Oxford-China Project, as the intake of
unprocessed vegetable food increased the chance of cancer, heart disease, and other disease DECREASED, all the
way down to near 0% heart disease when 100% of the diet came from plant-foods.

90% is the magic number, you need at least that much to see real benifis, however the benifits
continue to increase as that percentage rises. Your OPTIMUM increase in health benifits happens
at 100%.

Clear?

Ok, now as far as those who are worried I wont eat a critter if I have to, let me asure you that I will
indeed eat a critter "if I have to". So don't worry, I wont compromise any missions because of my diet.

All I ask for is a little understanding, a little tollerance, and a little effort to provide me with a meal I
feel is worth eating while I serve my country. In return I promise to do my best no matter what...
even if you cant always provide me the meal I want.. I'll still do my best.

Cheers, and now Im off to pack!


----------



## aesop081 (1 Aug 2005)

neuromancer said:
			
		

> Ok, Im going to try to make this as short and simple as I can because Im actually in the middle
> of moving at the moment, I have tonight and tomorrow to do all of it. eek.
> 
> Anyway, I've heard so much"mah mama is 234 years old and chews leather for breakfast" that   my ears want to bleed.
> ...



Let us know when you return to earth......i think you will find the logistics of things are a little different.  You say "all i ask is a meal *I FEEL * is worth eating....", this is where you need to shake your head.  Since when is this about you ?  If your diet choices are exactly that, choices, then suck it up and eat what you are provided and count yourself lucky that resupply made it to where you are.


----------



## beach_bum (1 Aug 2005)

neuromancer said:
			
		

> Anyway, I've heard so much"mah mama is 234 years old and chews leather for breakfast" that   my ears want to bleed.



Yes, and I've heard so much of this spout out of the mouths of vegetarians and vegans that my ears want to bleed!  

FACT:  You do not know everything.  Eat whatever you want.  Frankly, I couldn't care less if you want to eat nothing but dirt for the rest of your life.  That would be your choice.  Yay for choices.  However, what I eat is absolutely none of your business.  If I choose to eat a big raw steak for dinner every night...that is my choice.  You ask for a little tolerance and understanding, but you aren't giving that in return.


----------



## neuromancer (1 Aug 2005)

beach_bum said:
			
		

> Yes, and I've heard so much of this spout out of the mouths of vegetarians and vegans that my ears want to bleed!
> 
> FACT:  You do not know everything.  Eat whatever you want.  Frankly, I couldn't care less if you want to eat nothing but dirt for the rest of your life.  That would be your choice.  Yay for choices.  However, what I eat is absolutely none of your business.  If I choose to eat a big raw steak for dinner every night...that is my choice.  You ask for a little tolerance and understanding, but you aren't giving that in return.



Wow, when did I not show tolerance? When I tried to warn you of possible dangers?
You have a funny way of saying thanks. I guess my input isnt wanted, so feel free to stop reading this thread anytime.

On the other hand, since I pay taxes into healthcare I could easily argue that what YOU eat is absolutely MY business, because
while I'm going to be perfectly healthy in a few years, your not, and that means I'm going to have to pay for your
medical expenses.

That was only a joke folks.. because in all honesty. IN ALL HONESTY!! I completely agree with you!
What you eat is your business, you should be free to choose what you put into your body.
All I ask is for that same freedom.

Today the link between animal products and many different diseases is as strongly supported in the scientific literature
as is the link between smoking and lung cancer.

Hopefully in 20 years people will feel the same way about eating animal products as people today are
starting to feel about smoking.


----------



## neuromancer (1 Aug 2005)

aesop081 said:
			
		

> Since when is this about you ?  If your diet choices are exactly that, choices, then suck it up and eat what you are provided and count yourself lucky that resupply made it to where you are.




I guess we cant all be self-sacrificing saints like yourself who eat dirt every day 
while shouting: "thank you sir, may I have another".

Tell me, do you bother to pick up a pay check? Or is the joy of serving reward enough? 

To serve in the CF you settle for a check.
To serve in the CF I settle for a check and vegan lunch box. So sue me.


----------



## Britney Spears (1 Aug 2005)

> FACT:  You do not know everything.



Thanks, any other revelations that you feel like sharing?

Look folks, I'm not a vegan and won't likely become one, but how about you guys come up with some hard facts instead of little testosterone fueld cheapshots? Neuromancer has provided links and studies to prove his point, and while I don't agree with his conclusions they are not without basis.


----------



## Manimal (1 Aug 2005)

two of my best friends became hardcore vegetarians from my example, not from my preaching.
smoking is bad for you, but like Denis Leary pointed out "you could make the cigarette packs all black with a skull and cross bones on it, call them tumours, people would be running out to buy them, " 

yay for choices is right.
i don't bug people about eating me, but they sure bug me about not eating it.


----------



## aesop081 (1 Aug 2005)

neuromancer said:
			
		

> I guess we cant all be self-sacrificing saints like yourself who eat dirt every day
> while shouting: "thank you sir, may I have another".
> 
> Tell me, do you bother to pick up a pay check? Or is the joy of serving reward enough?
> ...



I never asked about pay......i love what i do and i would do it for free if hydro and food were free.  I'm not in for money, so yes the priviledge of serving is why i'm here.  Do not be so presumptous as to tell me why i am in the military.  I have been doing this for a long time and you have not earned the right to lecture me. Get back to me when you have some time in and experience to base your claptrap on !!


----------



## 45506445210414924 (1 Aug 2005)

hahahahahah there's always one, frankly I enjoyed slicing through my 16 oz Medium Rare steak tonight, to top it off with some sauteed shrimp, and can't wait to throw half a dozen RAW egg's in my protein shake tomorrow.....

my point (which as we can all see I'm horrible of making) is you can do this and not eat that and live life healthy, but the bottom line man is ya live once! If you don't die from what your preventing yourself from, then its another, an another, eat as healthy as you want, what you want, how much you want want, but you cant isolate and run away from environment problems such as the air pollution, carbon monoxide from 2nd hand smoke, natural diseases that occur in the human body, car accidents or drunk drivers for that fact!  

Your choice, as everyone has said, is your choice

....now where did i put that triple cheeseburger??? Please send all rants to my Inbox

Goodnight


----------



## neuromancer (1 Aug 2005)

Oh my gosh, that really made me laugh, thanks Mike F.

Just so you know, Im a Chef, I work full-time at a large restaurant.
I cook a lot of steak every day. I serve a lot of cheese as well. Thats my job.

With my knowledge about what makes food taste so good, I bet I could
make you the best steak you've ever eaten.

16 oz of AAA flame-broiled marinated and butter-soaked heaven. 

Hold on, let me warm up the defibulator. bbbbzzzzzzZZZZZZZZzzzzzz ZAP.. 

ok, all set, open-wide!


----------



## Gouki (1 Aug 2005)

neuromancer said:
			
		

> Wow, when did I not show tolerance? When I tried to warn you of possible dangers?
> You have a funny way of saying thanks. I guess my input isnt wanted, so feel free to stop reading this thread anytime.
> 
> Today the link between animal products and many different diseases is as strongly supported in the scientific literature
> ...



..You are so full of shit. Not to mention being a total hypocrite: you say "when did I not show intolerance?" then in your mind, attempted to warn us of the possible "dangers" and almost every post you made has been of a "vegans are right and superior" attitude - don't try to hide it by claiming the moral highground because it's blatently obvious. You sit there and say things about animal products and smoking - hey guess what: you're still forcing your half-assed beliefs on everyone else here - which you twist around in your own head to label "educating"

Vegans exactly like you are the complete reason I don't like vegans to begin with.You're question was legitimate enough: but you just couldn't resist "sharing" all your wonderful information with us, could you? If you want to eat just that - fine. If you think it's a better lifestyle - fine. But so many people like you feel the need to press it on others and it quickly becomes some sort of superiority complex. I feel the need to "educate" you in telling you that you are not, in any way shape or form, superior to us club carrying meat eaters. If I truly cared enough to debate this issue with you, (I don't) I could easily link and reference all sorts of sources exclaiming how neglecting animal meats/fats are bad for your health. Street moves in two ways pal.

In many ways, I liken you to those damned Christian types (mostly Southern Baptist) who force Jesus and God upon others and tell them how their lives are wrong (and theirs are coincidentally, right) and that they're going to hell. They show the same ignorance and sickening holier-than-thou attitude that you're showing.

I'm off for the night. I may even go eat some chicken breasts I cooked earlier before I do. Gee, I hope I survive the night.


----------



## aesop081 (1 Aug 2005)

well i just cooked up some italian saussage and fries......

MODS : i dare say the lock can go on as i think this has run its course.


----------



## 45506445210414924 (1 Aug 2005)

Just so ya know buddy I am a Kitchen Manager, Ya a 19 Yr old. Kitchen Manager, Come on down to Niagara Region I'll show ya the place, I will GLADLY take you up on a bet to cook the BEST 10 oz Austin Rose, 16 oz T-Bone, the biggest 14 oz burgers, you would ever taste, oh wait sorry your a virgin ...vegan! 

I'm done with this! I'm not one to say but aesop081 is right this threads gone too far!


----------



## Britney Spears (1 Aug 2005)

Too bad, I was still waiting for the card carrying meat eaters to actually come up with a coherent, reasonable response.


----------



## neuromancer (1 Aug 2005)

Mike F. said:
			
		

> Just so ya know buddy I am a Kitchen Manager, Ya a 19 Yr old. Kitchen Manager, Come on down to Niagara Region I'll show ya the place, I will GLADLY take you up on a bet to cook the BEST 10 oz Austin Rose, 16 oz T-Bone, the biggest 14 oz burgers, you would ever taste, oh wait sorry your a virgin ...vegan!
> 
> I'm done with this! I'm not one to say but aesop081 is right this threads gone too far!



Hey, I was managing a restaurant at  19 too, small world. Careful you dont bite off more than you can
chew with that little contest proposal. We could have an independant pannel or something.. hehe

Anyway, cheers mate.
Yeah, lock it up. Either that or muzzle Steve because its getting out of hand, I think
the rest of us are just having some fun.


----------



## Manimal (1 Aug 2005)

because i love those pretty eye brit, i'll give you a good one.
eating meat is good because:

you take on the power of the animal you killed when you eat it.

MOOOOO, damn good thing you don't kill your own meat eh! 14oz burger.
LOL, i had a 4oz veggie burger the other day from wimmpy's. mmmm veggie burger.


----------



## neuromancer (1 Aug 2005)

Steve said:
			
		

> ..You are so full of crap. Not to mention being a total hypocrite: you say "when did I not show intolerance?"



I do not think those words mean what you think they mean.
Maybe you need a dictionary so you can look up "hypocrite" and "intolerance".

After you've looked them up, then re-read the post you just made and ask yourself
which of us is showing "intolerance" and which one is actually the "hypocrite".

Have a good night.

Oh, and one more thing, I think you have serious personal issues. I really hope we dont serve together.


----------



## Gouki (1 Aug 2005)

Ah, so you're a psychologist as well


----------



## Manimal (1 Aug 2005)

man, i don't eat me cause i love animals LOL, can't we all just get along?


----------



## Gouki (1 Aug 2005)

Manimal said:
			
		

> man, i don't eat me cause i love animals LOL, can't we all just get along?



I know it was a typo but I still find that pretty funny  ;D


----------



## combat_medic (1 Aug 2005)

Let's keep the name calling and mud slinging to a minimum, shall we? 

Topic locked.


----------



## neuromancer (1 Aug 2005)

Yep, the Atkins Diet company just filed for bankruptcy and court protection.

Read the article here= http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=509&e=6&u=/ap/20050801/ap_on_bi_ge/atkins_bankruptcy

For those who are un-aware, Atkins is a Diet plan.

The Atkins diet recommends that you eat primarily high-fat, high-protein, fiberless animal 
foods and attempt to eliminate carbohydrates from your diet. Atkins menus average 60-70
percent of calories from fat and contain no whole grains and no fruit.

Hundreds of scientific studies have documented the link between animal products
and various cancers. Though it would be wrong to say that animal foods are the sole
cause of cancer.

Not only does the Atkins diet promote the heavy use of highly carcinogenic
food-types but it also forbids the use of fruit and whole grains. Studies show that 
fruit exclusion alone is a significant cancer marker.

Stomach and esophageal cancer are linked to populations that do not consume sufficient amounts of fruit.

There is also a striking consistency in many scientific investigations that show a reduction in incidence of colo-rectal
cancer and stomach cancer with the intake of whole grains.

Atkins trys to convince his followers that he knows better than leading nutritional research scientists.

Good riddance to bad rubbish!


----------



## The_Falcon (1 Aug 2005)

neuromancer said:
			
		

> Atkins trys to convince his followers that he knows better than leading nutritional research scientists.



Dr. Atkins has been dead for a few years now, just so you know.  But yeah, their stuff was all hyped up, there are much better/healthier high protein/low carb diets.


----------



## the 48th regulator (1 Aug 2005)

Correct me if I am wrong...but army.ca is a site regarding the military...

or has it become a who eats better and will live longer, dietary forum...

neuromancer enough already please...

dileas

tess


----------



## Gouki (1 Aug 2005)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Dr. Atkins has been dead for a few years now, just so you know.  But yeah, their stuff was all hyped up, there are much better/healthier high protein/low carb diets.



Yeah. The one my trainer put me on was similar to a CKD deal. 2 weeks no carbs whatsoever initially, carb up on the 14th day .. after that it was 5 days no carbs with one night of a carb up. Hard to follow and very restricting but it worked pretty well.


----------



## neuromancer (1 Aug 2005)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Correct me if I am wrong...but army.ca is a site regarding the military...
> 
> or has it become a who eats better and will live longer, dietary forum...
> 
> ...



Sorry, but I'll post what I want, this is valuble informaiton regarding health and nutrition that if more
people knew about there would be more healthy people.

Im not trying to offend anyone, but clearly to say "hey, this food can cause serious problems" is very 
offensive to some of you.

Personally, I think there are a lot better things to be offended by, and you guys need
to broaden your outlook and RELAX. Maybe a little less meat would.. heh.. oh nevermind.  ;D

But seriously, if anyone wants to post some accredited scientific information showing
how high-fat high-protien diets lower heart disease or cancer I would be the first
person to line up and read it. Honest.

Instead of complaining, why dont you just post some information about how a low-nutrient, low-fiber
diet is actually good for you?

*throws down the gauntlet*


----------



## Fishbone Jones (1 Aug 2005)

neuromancer said:
			
		

> Sorry, but I'll post what I want, this is valuble informaiton regarding health and nutrition that if more
> people knew about there would be more healthy people.
> 
> Im not trying to offend anyone, but clearly to say "hey, this food can cause serious problems" is very
> ...




OK, I'll pick it up and hand it back to you with some friendly advice. Many people are getting tired of the constant bombardment. We don't mind you coming here and posting an interesting subject, but we object to you using the site as your personal soapbox. We've had this sort of thing happen before with various other subjects. If you feel you absolutely must try to change the way 90% of the guys eat here, start your own Blog and give us a link. That way your not clogging up the site. It's an army site, while your original post has merit and developed some discussion, the members grow weary of such stuff pretty quick. As with anything, most don't like being "preached" to. I will also suggest, if you need to persist, to keep all your posts within the one original topic. They all pertain to the same thing anyway. It will save the Directing Staff from having to constanly "merge" the topics and posts. Up to you of course, but be forwarned, you'll quickly notice when the members grow tired of it. It'll quickly turn into a flame war (as it seems to have already started to) and end up being locked. Attempts to restart it after that point will only result in the threads being removed.


----------



## Maine_Finn (1 Aug 2005)

neuromancer said:
			
		

> Sorry, but I'll post what I want, this is valuble informaiton regarding health and nutrition that if more
> people knew about there would be more healthy people.
> 
> Im not trying to offend anyone, but clearly to say "hey, this food can cause serious problems" is very
> ...



No scientific garble from me, but holy meatballs Batman! Are you on a campaign to tell us how we're wrong because we don't follow your idea of a good diet? It's a good bet that most folks who post here know what they're about when it comes to how they eat. If there was a "Supersize Me!" movement or what not then perhaps I could understand your point a bit better.

That said, I'm about to take something out of the freezer to thaw out for dinner. Cheeseburgers, anyone?

Good point, recceguy.

~Finn


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## Gouki (1 Aug 2005)

Like I said, he's the Wayne Coady of the vegan world. Every topic I go to now it seems I'm learning how unhealthy I am for not being a vegan.


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## Scoobie Newbie (1 Aug 2005)

neuromancer you forgot to mention that marinating meat in an acidic marinade will reduce carcigens from between 50% to 90%.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (1 Aug 2005)

oh p.s.  I though Aitkens diet was ray oliver as well.


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## neuromancer (1 Aug 2005)

CFL said:
			
		

> neuromancer you forgot to mention that marinating meat in an acidic marinade will reduce carcigens from between 50% to 90%.



Hmm thats cool, I'll have to let my father know about that, I didnt know that myself.

Of course you'll still be eating a lot of saturated fat which the body has no use for what-so-ever, not to mention zero fiber in meat.

Please excuse Steve, he likes to follow me around and bash Vegans.

EDIT: What type of marinade exactly? You said acidic, so would something like orange juice or a vinegar be OK?


----------



## Britney Spears (1 Aug 2005)

> neuromancer you forgot to mention that marinating meat in an acidic marinade will reduce carcigens from between 50% to 90%.



What is your source for this?


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (1 Aug 2005)

Ya, lemon, vinager type of acid.

B.S.  I'll attempt to find them for you.


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## the 48th regulator (1 Aug 2005)

Google search for marinade and meat carcinogens

dileas

tess


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## Jungle (1 Aug 2005)

All right Neuromancer, we all understand your point. If you wish to join the CDN Forces, good on you. If the Military can provide you with the food you want, fine...
BUT, if you are trying to join on YOUR terms, you are mistaken. You will not be guaranteed that the Military will always be able to provide you with the kind of food you choose to eat. Let me explain my experience:
First, the last mission I was on, we spent a few months on hard rations. I don't say IMPs because for a good portion of that period, we were supplied with Aussie and NZ combat rats. We were actually down to 2 meals a day for a short time, because we were short rations... no time to be picky.
Second, there are menus in the IMPs that I don't like... the salmon comes to mind... :-X So, when I am given a salmon fillet, I try to trade with someone for an entree I like... if that doesn't work, I eat the dessert and the goodies. One thing I don't do is whine and moan about how I am misunderstood by 80% of the human race !!
Third, I was an instructor on Basic trg for a few years, for both Ocdts and Recruits. I saw a few vegetarians / vegans in my time, and while some did fine, others were running out of energy in the field before ENDEX was given. I remember one candidate who put in a voluntary release because it was hard to coord the diet and the tempo of trg. Personal choice, no problem with that.
What is important to realise is that we need people who will do the job, regardless of weather, terrain and OTHER CONDITIONS !!! If you are going to slow down, or break, because you don't have the food you want, then the Army is not for you.
If you are ready to do some sacrifices, and are ready to put the mission or task, and your mates, ahead of your own needs and wellbeing, then you are welcome to join.


----------



## KevinB (2 Aug 2005)

Jungle - great post.

 and likely a fitting end to a tiring debate.

tastes great - less filling ...

 ;D


----------



## neuromancer (2 Aug 2005)

Nice post Jungle, it doesnt really apply to me though, because as I've already stated 
TWICE in this thread that I will eat meat if I must (like if there is no other choice for 
food that day because of shipping problems). I really dont like skipping meals enless Im 
doing it on purpose for training reasons. So bottom line; If all they're serving that night is 
steak and kidney pie then I'll wolf it down just like the rest.

I do appreciate that he CF provides vegetarian meals, however I was looking
at them yesterday and from a nutrition stand point I can clearly understand why 
the vegetarians in the CF lack energy and often break; the veggie meals provided by CF
are mostly just pasta! Where is the protien? Where are the vegetables?

Im going to have to do some more research on the nutrition of the CF meals but if it
looks to be the way I think it is, then I might have to throw away my vegan'ism just to stay alive
when Im away from home.

Seriously, how do they expect people to live off pasta?

Is it possible to bring my own food with me when Im not out on tour somewhere?


----------



## KevinB (2 Aug 2005)

neuromancer said:
			
		

> Is it possible to bring my own food with me when Im not out on tour somewhere?



YES -- most of us do.

Be it power bars or other stuff (especially Hot sauces) - some guys bring the "gourmet" meals from MEC.

I used to bring Canned foods too -(poor taste to weight ratio though)


----------



## neuromancer (2 Aug 2005)

Awesome, quick reply KevinB!

So what are my options when Im away from home? Can I buy local?


----------



## Britney Spears (2 Aug 2005)

If it makes you feel any better, in garrison (i.e. on base) the cooks will usually have no problem meeting your dietary needs. One level below that, what we call "hayboxes", which are basically big inserts of warm food trucked out to the field, say at an outdoor weapons range. Here since the food is also prepared at a proper kitchen, it is also a none issue, especially if enough people ask for it. A seperate insert of a tofu/bean based entree should be provided. They are so good, that you should make sure you run to the line. If the meat eaters get there first they will undoubtably try to pass themselves off as vegans in order to get at the tofu.


----------



## canadianblue (2 Aug 2005)

> The link between food that comes from animals and many different diseases is as strongly supported in the scientific literature as is the link between smoking and lung cancer.



Sorry, I was born and raised on a dairy farm, and I sometimes wonder what people think. I've never had a single disease and I don't know of a single person who has gotten sick from eating meats or animal byproducts.


----------



## TCBF (2 Aug 2005)

Not to mention that wild game such as deer, caribou, and moose are very good for you.  This is under reported, as most people shy away from hunting, and would prefer others kill their food for them.

Tom


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## neuromancer (2 Aug 2005)

Futuretrooper said:
			
		

> Sorry, I was born and raised on a dairy farm, and I sometimes wonder what people think. I've never had a single disease and I don't know of a single person who has gotten sick from eating meats or animal byproducts.



When you get sick from eating animal-foods there are no flashing lights that say: "SEE I TOLD YOU SO!!"

So it can be a little difficult for most people to see any relationship 
between health problems and the eating of animal-foods.

Most people today who get cancer, stroke, heart disease, high blood presure, or any of the other
realted problems have no idea that it has anything to do with their diet and think that their
problems are just a part of life that must be endured and that they are just unlucky.

I've seen research that shows that a great very many of todays health problems can
be avoided by simply eating a proper diet.

Let me tell you a little about my family;

One of my uncles on my fathers side has Alzheimers, my aunt on the other side recently had a stroke and 
almost died (she is permanently disabled as a result of the stroke now).

My mother got breast cancer. Then she had a minor heart attack, but she appears to be ok now, and the 
cancer is gone as well.

Three close family friends have died from cancer, one from heart attack. 
One is in the hospital dying from cancer right now.

I'm really glad your family all have perfect health. 

Not everybody is so lucky.


----------



## aesop081 (2 Aug 2005)

neuromancer said:
			
		

> When you get sick from eating animal-foods there are no flashing lights that say: "SEE I TOLD YOU SO!!"
> 
> So it can be a little difficult for most people to see any relationship
> between health problems and the eating of animal-foods.
> ...



You are still going at it hey ?  Guess us club-carrying meat eaters sre just too dumb to listen to you  :


----------



## dutchie (2 Aug 2005)

I heard recently on the radio that there is a new fad diet out there that I think a lot of you might find interesting. It involves eating meat that is strictly wild or game. No farm beef, chicken, pork, or lamb. Lots of cariboo, bear, musk ox (very tasty), moose, deer, pheasant, etc along with wild versions of common meat (beef, lamb, etc). The theory being that wild meat does not have all of the added hormones, anti-biotics, etc that farmed meat does. As well, wild animals are thought to be fitter and healthier than farmed ones, making the meat healthier. IIRC, organic veggies and dairy products go along with this diet as well. As someone who has had wild musk ox & cariboo (is there any other kind?), this would appeal to me if it weren't for the cost. Musk ox might be the tastiest, most tender and flavourful meat I have ever had. 

Thoughts?


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## neuromancer (2 Aug 2005)

I guess Futuretroopers post was just one of those rhetorical posts where we are
all supposed to meditate upon the wisdom of growing up on a dairy farm, I'll have 
to try to keep my eyes open for those rhetorical posts from now on.

Sorry, but I mistakenly thought the post warrented a response.


----------



## KevinB (2 Aug 2005)

Two friends of mine have been eating organic meats for a while (ones family has been doing for longer than the 20 years I've known him)

This week I've been back to Ottawa I've eaten "uncontaminated" meats all week (mooching) with the exception of some smoked salmon down town...   - Probably psychosomatic but I feel more energetic and healthier (plus those buggers got me running, bikign and swimming ALOT)


----------



## Manimal (2 Aug 2005)

the cleaner the food the better. i think we can all agree that hormones and antibiotics put in to animals are not good for us to eat.
and you can see many thousands of people that have eaten meat 12 times a day for 159 years and have never been sick in there lives. i know i have. and i know a hard full of veggie heads that are always sick, and unhealthy, over weight etc.

but talking to meat eaters or veggie heads is a losing battle, keep your ideals, and work towards improving your health and well being, but talking about those health factors is a losing battle. if you love meat, you'll never understand, if you don't, you'll never understand others. but there is never a common ground until meat eats try the diet..... which many of them won't. it's their choice, and as a vegetarian, i respect that. if they want advice on how to do it, or foods they can/should eat, then i'm hear for them. 

but you'll doing it for health? great, don't add stress to your battle,  don't fight with them club carring meat eaters (LOL that's funny aesop) they might just club you!


----------



## mainerjohnthomas (3 Aug 2005)

I LOVE vegetarians.  They are the only people I let in front of me in the buffet line, tend to have meals that look like a cross between modern art and my mutual fund pie chart.  Incidently, three of the last five people I had to send off in an ambulance were all vegetarians who were suffering from cardiac or pulmonary consequences to low blood iron, running from anemia on up.  Its a great lifestyle as long as you as your body never needs to turn over blood in a hurry ;D


----------



## Manimal (3 Aug 2005)




----------



## Strike (3 Aug 2005)

The following article just shows the stupidity of SOME vegetarians.  Read the highlighted portion.  I don't know how many people I've met that say they don't eat meat because it's cruel to kill animals and then I look down and see a leather belt and shoes.  Nice.




> PUBLICATION:  The Kingston Whig-Standard
> DATE:  2005.08.02
> EDITION:  Final
> SECTION:  Forum
> ...


----------



## Fishbone Jones (3 Aug 2005)

Rant on

Typically, when you can't mount a logical argument to something, the next step is to vilify it. Now we're to classed as addicts? This is where the prohibitionist started with alcohol, and the anti tobacco lobby started. They'll push their small minded movement till the government again listens to a vocal minority, and the meat eaters will find themselves hiding behind dumpsters eating black market meat, bought with ill gotten gains for $100.00 an ounce. :

As with guns, tobacco, alcohol, gas burning engines and recycling, your entitled to your opinion. However, while they all remain legal, quit trying to shove your shyte down my throat. MYOFB and leave me alone. I promise I'll do the same for you. My choices are mine, not yours. 

Rant off


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## Britney Spears (3 Aug 2005)

Just so we're clear on the terminology here, from Wikipedia.

    * Vegetarians who avoid consuming all animal products (including eggs, milk, cheese, and honey) are commonly called vegans, though some reserve this term for those who additionally avoid usage of all kinds of animal products (such as leather and some cosmetics), rather than just food.

    * Ovo-lacto vegetarians do not eat meat, but may consume animal products such as eggs and milk. They do not, however, eat cheese made with animal rennet, and for ethical reasons often do not eat eggs produced by factory farms. The term "vegetarian" is most commonly intended to mean "ovo-lacto-vegetarian", particularly as "vegan" has gained acceptance as the term for stricter practice.

    * Lacto vegetarians do not eat meat, but may consume milk and its derivatives, like cheese, butter, or yogurt.

    * Similarly, ovo vegetarians do not eat meat but may eat eggs. This, and lacto vegetarianism, can also be known as semi-veganism.

    * Macrobiotics involves a diet consisting mostly of whole grains and beans, and is usually spiritually based like Fructarianism (see below).

    * Raw Foodism involves food, usually vegan, which is not heated above 116 °F (46.7 °C); it may be warmed slightly or raw, but never cooked. Raw Foodists argue that cooking destroys enzymes, and/or portions of each nutrient; this is true, but most raw foodists also acknowledge that for some foods, as cooking softens them, their nutrients become more bio-available, which more than negates the destruction of some nutrients and enzymes. Some raw-foodists, called living-foodists, also "activate" the enzymes (such as by soaking the food in water) a while before they plan to eat the food. Some spiritual raw-foodists are also Fructarians and some eat only organic foods (see below).

    * Fructarians, more commonly called "fruitarians", eat only fruit, nuts, seeds, and other plant matter that can be gathered without harming the plant (some fructarians eat only plant matter that has already fallen off the plant). This typically arises out of a holistic philosophy. Thus, a fructarian will eat beans, tomatoes, cucumbers, pumpkins, and the like, but will refuse to eat potatoes or spinach. It is disputed whether it is possible to avoid malnutrition with a fructarian diet, which is rarer than other types of vegetarian or vegan diet.

Religious dietary restrictions come in many forms and are sometimes compatible with the secular terminology; see below.

The following are not generally considered vegetarianism:

    * Some people choose to avoid certain types of meat for many of the same reasons that others choose vegetarianism: health, ethical beliefs, etc. For example, some people will not eat "red meat" (mammal meat â â€œ beef, lamb, pork, etc.) while still consuming poultry and seafood. This is not traditional vegetarianism, but has recently been referred to in the media as semi-vegetarianism (see pesco/pollo vegetarianism for other terms). Some non-vegetarians thus assume vegetarianism to be pesco/pollo vegetarianism.

    * Others might regard the suffering of animals in factory farm conditions as their sole reason for avoiding meat or meat based foods. These people will eat meat or meat products from animals raised under more humane conditions or hunted in the wild. Some of these people incorrectly refer to themselves as vegetarians.

    * Freegans subscribe to a purely environmental mentality: although meat is generally avoided, eating meat that has been discarded by others is acceptable. The environmental impact of this practice is seen as null or perhaps even beneficial (although discarded meat can be safely composted in some facilities). Freegans often prefer discarded food in any case, even if it is not meat. But producing meat is believed to have more environmental impact than other foods, so this is often the focus of freeganism.

    * Flexitarians adhere to a diet that is mostly vegetarian. However, they occasionally consume meat.

Right now, my diet is essentially "Flexitarian".


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## Britney Spears (3 Aug 2005)

> Typically, when you can't mount a logical argument to something, the next step is to vilify it.



What about vegan/vegetarianism do you find illogical? If you've got a bullet proof debunking then let's hear it.


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## Fishbone Jones (3 Aug 2005)

I not saying there isn't logical arguements on both sides. I'm saying that there are small minded people out there that if they can't convince you or are to anal to leave people be, they'll degenerate to things like that dingbat was saying.


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## aesop081 (3 Aug 2005)

recceguy said:
			
		

> As with guns, tobacco, alcohol, gas burning engines and recycling, your entitled to your opinion. However, while they all remain legal, quit trying to shove your shyte down my throat. MYOFB and leave me alone. I promise I'll do the same for you. My choices are mine, not yours.
> 
> Rant off



Freakin' brilliant !  The shyte that has been dished out from the "anti-meat" types  is like the crap i put up with from the mormons downstairs or the jehova's that insit or knocking on my door sunday morning at 8.  Its like their mission in life is to free me from my sins. Get over yourself and frekin leave the rest of us alone.


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## Britney Spears (3 Aug 2005)

Heh, I agree on the dingbat part. People like Christine Overall make me question my faith in my fellow liberals.

I don't agree that *pure* veganism or the complete elimination of meat from one's diet is a good thing. I do believe that we in the Developed World as a whole will GREATLY benefit from a drastic reduction in the amount of meat and animal products comsumed(better health for the vast majority of people), the elimination of enviromentally unsustainable factory farms, big agro-business, and more goverment promotion of "green" agriculture. If that can be achieved by promoting at least a predominantely vegetarian diet, I'm all for it. 

Mind my own business? The production of alchohol, tobbacco, and firearms do not pose a significant threat to the enviroment. If any of you have been downwind to a slaughterhouse or seen a factory farm you'll know why it is everyone's business.


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## Fishbone Jones (3 Aug 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> If any of you have been downwind to a slaughterhouse or seen a factory farm you'll know why it is everyone's business.



 I inspect them as part of my job. Did one today as a matter of fact, doesn't bother me in the least. If it went into production AFTER the houses were there, the populace has a reason to bitch. However, if the NIMBY's built their half million dollar dream home next to it, they got no call to bitch. It was their choice.


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## Britney Spears (3 Aug 2005)

> inspect them as part of my job. Did one today as a matter of fact, doesn't bother me in the least. If it went into production AFTER the houses were there, the populace has a reason to *****. However, if the NIMBY's built their half million dollar dream home next to it, they got no call to *****. It was their choice.



Well, seeing as how I think the entire modern meat industry is an enviromental unsustainable and an abomination on nature, I'm not too worried about their location, although if I lived near one, you can be sure I'd be up in arms.


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## Fishbone Jones (3 Aug 2005)

Like I said, if your were there first. If not, no one made you move there. It's like moving in next store to someone established and saying "Hey, I don't like the colour of your house! Get it painted or get the hell out."


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## SHELLDRAKE!! (6 Aug 2005)

Reading through the 10 pages of this thread so far and trying to take a neutral stance on the topic, its very clear that the "vegan" concept is being forced down the throat of all as the end all be all solution to longevity. Since this site is based on facts and opininons for topics, nowhere else have I seen posts that so blatently force ones opinion on others.

 Yes the concept that a no meat diet will extend your life is an opinion. Fine, great but keep it at that and use the letters IMHO next time. No one has yet to prove that a baby raised to a natural death age on vegetables has lived a better or healthier life than a baby raised on meat.

 IMHO the general attitude in the CF is eat how you want, nobody will be coming up to you saying hey, I eat meat.....did you hear me? I eat meat......

 But as for spending more defence dollars (which are quickly running out as it is) on vegan nutritionists and developing no meat rations that can sustain you to complete all that is asked of a soldier, is sadly not an option for the small percentage of the CF that actually want it.

 I would like to see ice cream incorporated into rations but I wont hold my breath.


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## Scoobie Newbie (6 Aug 2005)

I had some fruit flavoured skittles.  Does that count towards my daily intake?  lol


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## Hunter911 (7 Aug 2005)

SHELLDRAKE!! said:
			
		

> Reading through the 10 pages of this thread so far and trying to take a neutral stance on the topic, its very clear that the "vegan" concept is being forced down the throat of all as the end all be all solution to longevity. Since this site is based on facts and opininons for topics, nowhere else have I seen posts that so blatently force ones opinion on others.
> 
> Yes the concept that a no meat diet will extend your life is an opinion. Fine, great but keep it at that and use the letters IMHO next time. No one has yet to prove that a baby raised to a natural death age on vegetables has lived a better or healthier life than a baby raised on meat.
> 
> ...



Very good points... There is no need to spend money on developing a no meat food supplement when there are so many other things that that money could be put towards... A personal *estimation* would be that there would be no more than 5% of people in the forces who were vegan TOPS...

In my opinion, you should eat what they give you to eat (simply because you dont have many other options if you want to eat)... Im not really with the whole vegan thing... im not saying its wrong... but im not really with it...I see no reason not to eat meat, and sometimes you cant afford to be picky


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## Strike (7 Aug 2005)

I have an aunt who cannot eat domestic meat because of an obscure allergy.  She has made due with eating the wild variety.  Her family was so upset when they found out what they would be "stuck" eating... ;D

As for the veggie IMPs, we have a tech who eats them when we're on Ex because she also has this same obscure allergy and is also lactose intollerant (can't be stuck with the mac and cheese).  The way they were labelled in the box made them seem like they were also hallal meals.  Pretty nice stuff in them; dried cranberries, raisins, granolla.  We were all pretty jealous.  I want dried cranberries and granolla in my IMP too!!!


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## aesop081 (7 Aug 2005)

Strike said:
			
		

> I want dried cranberries and granolla in my IMP too!!!



Strike...you must be from BC  ;D


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## Manimal (7 Aug 2005)

Hunter911 said:
			
		

> I see no reason not to eat meat, and sometimes you cant afford to be picky



for me it's not about being picky, i don't eat meat for religious reasons.
i can give you a few other perfect reasons not to eat it too.

i will serve my country, and give my life if need be, all i ask is that my beliefs be respected, and allow me to practice the diet set out for me by those beliefs.


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## Scoobie Newbie (7 Aug 2005)

and we'll let you practice those beliefs overseas as long they don't impede the mission.


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## larry Strong (7 Aug 2005)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Like I said, if your were there first. If not, no one made you move there. It's like moving in next store to someone established and saying "Hey, I don't like the colour of your house! Get it painted or get the hell out."



Thats like the people who move from the city onto an acerage, then bitch and whine that the farms and the manure etc stink and they end up forcing so many restrictions on the farmers they can barely farm their land.

I did not claw my way to the top of the food chain to eat vegetables


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## Roy Harding (7 Aug 2005)

This may well be the most entertaining thread I've perused in a while.

One question, though - a few pages ago, Britney Spears asked if the meat eaters could come up with _factual_ and authoritative sources to support their food choice.

I don't recall seeing any replies - to be honest, I may have missed it - I tended to skim over the "name calling" bits - although they are sometimes the most amusing.

For the record - I don't have any dogs in this fight, and I'm an omnivore.  BUT I think that a balanced diet, coupled with vigorous exercise makes for a balanced and vigorous human being.  How you "balance" your diet is entirely up to you, none of my business, and no matter the mix you choose, does not constitute a "moral" choice.

Anyway - if I missed something on the "meat eaters" side, please correct me.  Otherwise - can someone comply with Britney's request?


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## Springroll (7 Aug 2005)

My great grandmother was very strict when it came to her meals. One meal(typically dinner) HAD to have meat in it of some sort then a starch and a veggie.

She is the only proof that I have that meat is not harmful...
she lived until she was 32 days shy of her centennial(passed Nov 21). 
The majority of the senior citizens that I have worked with also believe the same as her...and they are living to ripe old ages.

I enjoy my meat and will continue too...nothing like a good steak hot of the Bar-B-Q(tonight was BBQ'ed pork chops!)


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## Britney Spears (8 Aug 2005)

> and no matter the mix you choose, does not constitute a "moral" choice.



If you will refer back to the list of vegetarian terms, 



> Others might regard the suffering of animals in factory farm conditions as their sole reason for avoiding meat or meat based foods. These people will eat meat or meat products from animals raised under more humane conditions or hunted in the wild. Some of these people incorrectly refer to themselves as vegetarians.



This is the viewpoint that I have the most sympathy for. Choosing to eat meat is not in and of it self immoral, (and it is the natural state of things, after all)  but it is perfectly possible to do so without having to support the meat industry, which, in my opinion and that of many others, is fundementally an "evil" industry. Couple that with the (proven) fact that it is possible to eat a perfectly healthy vegetarian diet(Healthy people don't *NEED* to eat meat), and one can argue that when you,  by choice, support the meat industry, you are indirectly contributing to their destruction of the enviroment and their inadverdent development of new diseases and pathogens like BSE, not to mention the cruelty factor. It's a bit of a tenuous link but not completely without basis. Thus, I think that the net effect of more people converting to veganism/vegetarianism is positive, even if they're not doing it for the right reasons. A diet composed soley of plants and wild game meat would be just as ethical, in this respect.

Then again, I think the same way about many other industries (diamonds come to mind).


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## Roy Harding (8 Aug 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> If you will refer back to the list of vegetarian terms,
> 
> This is the viewpoint that I have the most sympathy for. Choosing to eat meat is not in and of it self immoral, (and it is the natural state of things, after all)  but it is perfectly possible to do so without having to support the meat industry, which, in my opinion and that of many others, is fundementally an "evil" industry. Couple that with the (proven) fact that it is possible to eat a perfectly healthy vegetarian diet(Healthy people don't *NEED* to eat meat), and one can argue that when you,  by choice, support the meat industry, you are indirectly contributing to their destruction of the enviroment and their inadverdent development of new diseases and pathogens like BSE, not to mention the cruelty factor. It's a bit of a tenuous link but not completely without basis. Thus, I think that the net effect of more people converting to veganism/vegetarianism is positive, even if they're not doing it for the right reasons. A diet composed soley of plants and wild game meat would be just as ethical, in this respect.
> 
> Then again, I think the same way about many other industries (diamonds come to mind).



Fair enough, Britney.  

As I said, I don't have any dogs in this fight - I should have added "in my opinion" when I said "does not constitute a "moral" choice", such an addition would have made my (non-existent) opinion of the matter more clear.


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## larry Strong (8 Aug 2005)

How do you mean an "Evil" Industry? Are we going to feed the trillions on 20 acre farms, I don't see that happening. Sounds like something a city person would say.


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## larry Strong (8 Aug 2005)

larry Strong said:
			
		

> How do you mean an "Evil" Industry? Are we going to feed the trillions on 20 acre farms, I don't see that happening. Sounds like something a city person would say. Where's the proof that BSE comes from large intensive cattle operations. To coin your favorite phrase Brittany "Where's the proof"


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## Scoobie Newbie (8 Aug 2005)

You just qouted yourself.


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## larry Strong (8 Aug 2005)

CFL said:
			
		

> You just qouted yourself.



Ooops, the finger factor, thats what happens when you hunt and peck I quess ;D


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## Britney Spears (8 Aug 2005)

> Where's the proof that BSE comes from large intensive cattle operations.



BSE is spread via the practice of feeding cows the remains of infected cows, yes?



> How do you mean an "Evil" Industry?



It's evil because it causes needless enviromental damage, i.e. pollution of ground and river water and the general depletion of water resources, and the nature of CAFOs tend to promote diseased and unsanitary conditions. Both of which pose a substantial health risk to humans. Heavy use of drugs and anti-biotics are not exactly very benign practices either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_animal_feeding_operation


> Are we going to feed the trillions on 20 acre farms, I don't see that happening.


Last time I checked, the vast majority of people in the world got along just fine without factory farms. Factory farming is only prevalent in developed nations, where farmers are paid not to grow food, and the meat industry is controlled by coglomorates. I'm not sure what kind of famine you're envisioning if the price of a big mac went up 2x or 3x tomorow, statistically, you're eating too much meat anyway. Just pretend you're in Europe. Worst case scenario, you could become a vegetarian.    Also, using factory farms for the raising of animals like cows for food is an extremely inefficient use of water and land. Although this is also true for cattle and livestock in general, which is why for much of human history, meat was a luxury item. Perhaps one day, if we haven't turned the planet into a glass parking lot yet, there will be enough mouth to feed that factory farms become unsustainable? 



> Sounds like something a city person would say.



Yeah, I'm a city person, so? The only reason factory farms are not in cities is because they pollute so much and are a blight on the face of the earth.


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## larry Strong (8 Aug 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> BSE is spread via the practice of feeding cows the remains of infected cows, yes?
> 
> 
> Thats is one version of what causes BSE     http://www.ithyroid.com/mad_cow_disease.htm
> ...



There was no intent to dis your living in a city, I was trying to show the difference in thinking between urban and rural folks. And the answer about factory farms in cities is totaly asinine IMHO.

And as you can see I have not mastered the quote thing yet : 

http://www.ithyroid.com/mad_cow_disease.htm

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/vegetarian.html


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## larry Strong (8 Aug 2005)

The second web site actually debunks a few of the pro-vegan arguments that we have seen over the last few pages.


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## Manimal (8 Aug 2005)

CFL said:
			
		

> and we'll let you practice those beliefs overseas as long they don't impede the mission.



it's also my belief that when you have a job to do, you don't let anything stand in it's way.
some beliefs are more important then others sometimes!
i also don't believe in killing!
but i don't believe in letting evil people kill good people, therefore it is better to kill an evil person then to let him kill a good one  :threat: :threat: :threat: it's not all black and white, and i don't pretend to make it that way.


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## FormerHorseGuard (8 Aug 2005)

i had an O/C in the GGHG who was Jewish and he told me on his courses he would always get a close to kosher diet as possible. He was Res Officer training course not sure what  level in Gagetown, and by the end of the course every  officer was claiming to be jewish because his rations were always better then the rest.  I had a Jewish driver in HQ COY,  we always let her pick IMPS first so she could get something that  did have pork or other non kosher foods. I know the food was prepared as kosher but we tried out best to make sure she did not get the strange meals with the meat that was not marked as meat....

I do think all veggie meal would be ahrd to come by, on course they might be able to do it some justice but on missions and real operations, not very  likely to have Veggie IMPS or MRES  for that  person.  be prepared to hump extra wieght with you , peanut butter and stuff because you be hungry some nights
just my  opinion


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## Springroll (8 Aug 2005)

The practice of feeding other animals animal by products is on the way out. They have already begun to stop making dog food this way, and that is why it is very important that when you are out grocery shopping, you get 100% grain fed beef, chicken, pork etc. I ony buy Maple Leaf chicken because they are grain fed, I go to butcher shops for my beef and pork. I do not by the stores "version" ofmeat..YUCK!


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## Britney Spears (8 Aug 2005)

> Thats is one version of what causes BSEïÂ¿Â½  ïÂ¿Â½ http://www.ithyroid.com/mad_cow_disease.htm



It is the generally accepted version. 



> Although I do agree with you here somewhat. But that does not make it evil, we  need to ensure that they become more enviormentaly freindly. With 25% of the world starving (UN Fiqures), and with that number excpected to rise along with population growth that is skyrocketing(again from the UN), in the forseeable future farms are going to have to be more area intensive.



I don't belive that factory farming, even in developed western nations, is significantly more economical.

http://www.ciwf.org.uk/publications/Briefings%255CART9857.pdf&e=9797


> Production cost differences as between factory farming and higher welfare
> systems
> The widely-held assumption that factory farming is inherently much cheaper than
> more humane systems proves in many cases to be false. For some products the onfarm
> ...



In any case, the pricing of food commodities in the west are so distorted from free market prices by goverment subsidies, that I can't say either way. I'm not sure that the cost of the actual production is even a huge factor in the meat industry.

Again, factory farms are a purely _Industrialized world_ phenomenon. The site you quote does not dispute this. Yes, it's more efficient to graze animals on land that cannot be economically farmed, but that's not factory farming. Simply put, the world is NOT running out of food, people are not starving because they don't have factory farms,and the wasteful form of comsumption, of which factory farming is a factor, that we practice in the west is neither neccesary or sustainable.


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## larry Strong (8 Aug 2005)

It's the generally accepted *Theory*

I would be interested in carrying this onward, but as it is not germaine to the original subject we will let it drop here


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## neuromancer (9 Aug 2005)

Holy cow(no pun intended), I had no idea this would degenerate into such a total shite storm.

Im really hesitant to weight in on this subject any more because its clear 
there are a lot of people who will just call me names and shoot down anything
I have to say while at the same time offering ZERO countering evidence besides
their examples of their grandmothers or grandfathers which are NOT scientific studies.

As far as those veggies who suffer from anemia or broken hips or whatever, well, I feel
sorry that they obviously dont have the proper information to form a sustaining diet.
At the very least they should be lumped in with people under other improper diet
formulas who die of stroke/cardiac arrest/cancer from their bad diets.

If a vegan gets anemia it means their diet formula is unbalanced, but it does not mean that vegetables are bad for you!

However, if my choice was anemia or cancer, I'll take anemia, at least anemia can be cured by increasing iron
intake, there are many vegetables that have high-iron content.

The China-Project study (go google it) shows that health benefits increase and health problems
decrease as the percentage of calories from plant-foods increase up to 90% of calories coming
from plant-foods. 

I thought it went all the way up to 100% but apparently the benefits past 90% are very negligible.

So, in conclusion, if you eat 10% of your total caloric intake from animal-foods and 90% of your caloric
intake from plant-foods, you will be putting yourself into the healthiest percentile of people on earth.

That can be taken as a fact according to the Cornell-Oxford study known as the China-Project which is the largest 
human study on health and diet which has ever been done. ...LARGEST SCIENTIFIC STUDY ON DIET EVER DONE... 

If you disagre with the results of the study then you are welcome to do a study of your own to prove 
the scientists from Cornell and Oxford wrong. Good luck.

Im really upset that several people here are trying to take the stance that the health 
benefits of eating vegetables are a matter of opinion and then lumping it
in with pushy religeos people. I strongly suggest you not say that too my face
should we happen to meet. That kind of ignorant talk really pushes my buttons, hard.

If you really feel you must keep eating meat or you will waste away or not have
enough energy to work and play..NO PROBLEM! 

Nobody is trying to force you to change your overall lifestyle. I'm just giving information
that shows a certain trend, what you do with the info is entirely up to you.

However, if you can, if at all possible, then please just try to eat a few more vegetables 
every day. Its not a matter of faith, your health will improve because there is strongly 
supported nutritional science behind this.

The Canadian health guide says 5-10 servings of fruit and vegetables a day. 
When was the last time you ate 5 - 10 pieces of fruit in a day? 

1 orange = 1 serving

LISTEN TO YOUR MOTHER, EAT YOUR VEGGIES!

Thats all Im trying to say.


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## beach_bum (9 Aug 2005)

I don't think anyone was trying to say that eating fruit and veggies were bad for you.  I know I certainly wasn't.  I very much enjoy eating both fruit and vegetables, and yes I do eat at least five servings per day.  I also very much enjoy eating meat.  I don't eat meat with every meal, and on the occasional day, I won't have any meat at all.  I eat a lot of fish and chicken, but I also happen to love a nice steak done on the BBQ (have one marinating right now for dinner in fact) as well.  

I know quite a few vegetarians who are very healthy as well.  I'm not saying you are wrong to not eat meat.  That is your preference.  My point is that people who eat a balanced diet including meat can be just as healthy.  That's it.


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## Ex-Dragoon (9 Aug 2005)

Well folks I like to eat meat..if people don't like my food choices   well tough! I also like my Coke and jolt cola. I like coffee! I like Mars Bars. I like corn on the cob. I like basmati rice...get the picture? 

Neuromancer while I know you tried to present a good reason for people to become vegans, its not going to happen. You have gotten a backlash, so the suggestion to you would be to accept not everyone agrees with your views and move on. BTW its not nice to threaten to do physical harm to people because they disagree and find your lifestyle choices to be odd.


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## Strike (9 Aug 2005)

Britney,

I hate to say it, but your thinking is flawed.  I'm sure that the larger livestock farms to cause pollution in varrying forms, but veggie and grain farms are no better.  All we have to do is look in the news about genetically altered plants.  Also, you may find (if you do a little research in environmental sciences -- I'm a Chem Eng by schooling and study this subject on the side) that these farms are actually worse.  Think of the chemicals sprayed on plants to fertilize and keep the bugs away.

Of course, the major problem, especially in North America, is the waste of water.  The general method used to irigate these farms is by spraying the fields either with a large sprinkler or by running a long pipe on rollers over the field while also spraying.  The problem with this method is that the water must pass through the air causing up to 50% to evaporate, depending on the amount of humidity already present in the air.  When the wtare reaches the ground it does not automatically seep into the ground and another 25% of the total water can be lost through the same method.  This means only 25% of the water used for irigation actually makes it to the plants.  Of course, this problem could be alleviated by installing a drip hose system either on or under the ground.  It is much more expensive to install but only 15% of the water is lost.

The reason this is such a huge problem in North America is because many farmers are subsidized on their water use.  They pay a base price, no matter how much of it they actually use.  With most of the big farms being in the midwestern States and the prairies and the fact that this is an area with a water deficit, it seems the governments need to step up and stop this practice.

So, before you go saying that all livestock farms are big polluter of the air and water table and waste water, I suggest you research the effect that the other farms have to the environment as well.  You may find they can be just as bad in some respects and sometimes even worse in others.

- rant off -


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## Britney Spears (9 Aug 2005)

You missed my point entirely. I never claimed that that other forms of agriculture are completely without enviromental impact, I'm saying that it takes a LOT more in terms of energy and water resources to raise the equivilant amount of food in the form of livestock. *What do you think cows and pigs eat? apart from other cows and pigs?* Most livestock is fed with grain, which must be grown in the manner of which you speak(In fact, I believe most of the grain grown in N America is used for animal feed, I can google for a cite if you want), and it's an overall inefficient use of resources. You know, "second law of thermodynamics" and all that Chem Eng jazz. That's why in the past, and for poor countries in the present, meat is/was a luxury item that the common man saw very little of, with the exception of nomadic peoples like the Mongols or the Masai, who required vast tracts of land to support a relatively small population. 

Back to my original point, The nature of these CAFOs is the same as that of large cities, when enourmous amounts of waste is concentrated in such a small area, it is impossible for the ecosystem to absorb. I highly doubt that most of these CAFOs can produce meat more economically than small farms if they were forced to cover the enviromental costs as well.



> "Imagine a city as big as New York suddenly grafted onto North Carolina's Coastal Plain. Double it. Now imagine that this city has no sewage treatment plants. All the wastes from 15 million people are simply flushed into open pits and sprayed onto fields. Turn those humans into hogs, and you don't have to imagine at all. It's already here."



<a href=http://www.earthsave.org/lifestyle/factfarm.htm>Source</a>


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## Hatless Dancer (12 Aug 2005)

Wow, does todays army really go to such lengths to accomodate vegetarians? Remind the CQ three days in advance to set aside one haybox with wheat grass and tofu? Thats just wrong. On so many levels.


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## SeanPaul_031 (12 Aug 2005)

Hatless Dancer said:
			
		

> Wow, does todays army really go to such lengths to accomodate vegetarians? Remind the CQ three days in advance to set aside one haybox with wheat grass and tofu? Thats just wrong. On so many levels.



Its wrong on so many levels cause they think eating a chicken or pig is inhumane but then they have no problem going to afghanistan where they will be potentially killing others in combat.


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## Victory2b (28 Aug 2006)

Hello I did a search but was not able to find an answer to my question.  I have been considering applying for the CF but wanted to know more about being a Vegan. From what I was able to find in my searches you can be one for religious reasons but what if it is just a personal decision? 

Let me explain I have been a Vegan for about 2 years now and there are several reasons I became one. First is it lines up to Gods original intention for mans diet as outlined in Genesis 1:29. (Even though my diet is biblically based my religion does not require it) Next is for health reasons. (Not because I have a medical condition but because it is just a healthier way of living). In addition to this my diet requires several dietary supplements such as Barleymax, Carrotmax and vitamin B12. These come in powder and/or capsule form that can be easily kept for a long period of time in just about any conditions. I understand that there might be times where being a vegan would not be possible and I would be willing to temporarily adjust my diet a bit but would rather not. 

So would I be able to stay a Vegan in the CF? Also would I be able to continue to take the necessary dietary supplements that go along with my diet?

Thank you


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## AmmoTech90 (28 Aug 2006)

You are basing your diet on a 2000+ year old writing that requires you to take modern supplements?  Quick call Daniken, he can write a book about this.

Seriously though, the CF will provide vegi field means, not sure about vegan.  There are no restrictions on eating what you want so long as it does not cause injury.
As far as supplements go, do a search on supplements and the attitude towards them, especially during BMQ.  They are not allowed during BMQ.


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## DSB (28 Aug 2006)

From my experience I would say that you could make it through.  As long as you are willing to augment your diet you should be fine.  Do not count on always being given a veggie meal.  There will be times were you will have to make due with what you get.  From what I remember of the meals, there are very few vegan IMPs....a lot if the newer Kosher and Halal meal seemed to have cheese.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (28 Aug 2006)

I put "vegetarian" in the advanced search and got 2 pages of hits......

Now you try,
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?action=search


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## Sneaky147 (28 Aug 2006)

I'm not pro or anti-vegan, but if I were in the field or on a course requiring a higher level of physical activity or stress I'm not sure I'd WANT to be a vegan in the field.  I'm not much of an eater, and never have been, but on my BMQ and everytime I've been in the field I turn into a remorseless eating machine.  Even with all of the eating I do I still lose weight, particularly muscle mass when in the field, especially in the winter.  I can usually count on between 3-5 lbs a week for the first few weeks, and that's packing back everything I'm given.  If I were restricting myself to a vegan diet which would be foods with a much lower fat and calorie content, you'd probably have to eat constantly just to maintain your body.  

I'm not saying that it would not be possible to remain being a vegan in times when your body will make much greater demands on you.  But you most definitely would need to augment your diet further.  I figure in the field I'm ingesting 4000 - 5000 calories a day and I have lost as much as 6 lbs in a week.  Again, winter ex's are the worst as the body's natural furnace burns calories at a tremendous rate just to keep warm.  

Again... I imagine it WOULD be possible to remain a vegan, especially in garrison (no problem at all), but when your body turns on you and demands a lot of fuel, you'd probably need a wheelbarow full of food just to stave off hunger pains.


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## xmarcx (28 Aug 2006)

Sneaky147 said:
			
		

> Again... I imagine it WOULD be possible to remain a vegan, especially in garrison (no problem at all), but when your body turns on you and demands a lot of fuel, you'd probably need a wheelbarow full of food just to stave off hunger pains.



I recently quit being a vegan after almost 5 years. It's alright once you get into a routine/are near home and all your standard food-purchasing locations, but even on a roadtrip you tend to get completely screwed let alone on an operation. I was actually forced to quit when I started training to make sure I could pass the recruiting fit test. Running itself wasn't a problem but I started to get really sick and feel gutted all the time, and I couldn't achieve anywhere near the minimum number of pushups. 4 months of introducing dairy and eggs back into my diet finally let me eat as many calories as I needed to train and gave me a much needed source of protein, and I quickly got up and beyond standard. I'm not saying you couldn't do that as a vegan, but the sheer dedication and obsession with eating  would take would likely eat up all your free time/drive you nuts.

The bigger problem is that you have to plan for the worst if you want to join the CF. I'm not in yet but I almost starved as just a vegetarian in cadets a few times. Since there aren't any vegan Imps (I'm 90% sure, correct me if I'm wrong), and I doubt anyone's going to take the time to make a single vegan haybox, you are going to be in serious trouble the second you're out of garrison, unless you want to find the room to carry an extra $20 a day worth of veggie civvie camp food - and that won't last you very long. Personally, I want to stay vegetarian, but I had to accept when I put my application in that in the Army that means I'd be vegetarian whenever it was my choice, whenever it wouldn't affect the supply situation of my unit, and that if it comes down to it, eating meat is a lesser evil than being malnourished and underperforming mentally which could get people, rather than animals, killed.


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## DSB (28 Aug 2006)

The two IMPs that I thought were vegan have egg white.   So they really are no vegan IMPs.  You can make due....i ate mac and cheese 3 meals a day for years until the new ones came out.  I would trade bits of the meal, others things mates would give me, I do bring granola bars, dried fruit, powdered soups and such on exs.  The longest Ive been in the field is about two weeks, (the various CACs, JNCO): that duration is pretty easy.  

I did go hungry many times when I first got in, passed out twice before I got with the program. You just adapt, after a bit its second nature.

DSB


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## Victory2b (28 Aug 2006)

Thanks for all the information. 

@ AmmoTech90
You said that supplements are not allowed during BMQ. With the exception of the B12 the other 2 are just powdered organic Barley, Carrots, and alfalfa. It is no different than say eating a salad. As for the B12 I have to take that because I don’t have meat in my diet and the only other place this is found in is dirt and I don’t want to eat that. In rare cases people suffer from neurological disorders without B12 and I really don’t want that to happen. In regards to you question about “a 2000+ year old writing that requires you to take modern supplements?” The reason is because the modern farming industry has reduced the nutritional value of most vegetables found in stores today in favour of size and appearance and I can’t afford to buy 100% organic food. Let me put it this way if I were on the same diet a hundred years ago I would not need to take them. In addition to this most people don’t start on this diet because they have nothing better to do. A lot of people due it because they are suffering from a severe medical condition and have to begin the process of reversing it. After all most people spend there lives filling there body with junk food and it takes a lot of good food to provided the body with what it needs to remove the damage caused by years of neglect. 

Sorry for the long winded explanation I was hoping I would not need to go into such a detailed explanation but I do see how it can be confusing especially considering I provided so little information about my diet. I try use the term Vegan lightly because it is not a true representation of my diet but it is the closest easy to understand term I know of.


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## paracowboy (28 Aug 2006)

Victory2b said:
			
		

> So would I be able to stay a Vegan in the CF?


yes. But not necessarily while on your Basic or Trades course. 


> Also would I be able to continue to take the necessary dietary supplements that go along with my diet?


same answer.

You will have a very difficult time trying to stick to absurd diets while on Exercises or Deployments, as well, no matter what the reason. Moreover, you will be a pain in the ass for your Quartermaster and Kitchen Officer, and they will not like you.


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## DSB (29 Aug 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> yes. But not necessarily while on your Basic or Trades course. same answer.
> 
> You will have a very difficult time trying to stick to absurd diets while on Exercises or Deployments, as well, no matter what the reason. Moreover, you will be a pain in the *** for your Quartermaster and Kitchen Officer, and they will not like you.



I'm a strict vegetarian, (I do eat dairy),have been my whole life.  I had a few issues in basic.  All my other trades courses were fine.  Yeah I know I'm a medic but I did a few months on JLC/JNCO, Drv Wheel, OP recuperation, and have been very active with various brigade exs.  No major problems.   QM should have no problems with you, as long as you don't hit them by surprise.  If they get upset about reasonable requests than they need to look at their own professionalism.  The cooks in all the messes I've eaten at have been great.  They willing look for ways to help, ask opinions, and value your input.

DSB


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## paracowboy (29 Aug 2006)

conversely, the individual in question should be aware that they are just that: an individual, and the QM/CQ/KO staff have to concern themselves with feeding dozens, scores, or hundreds of troops, and extra demands are unwelcome, and possibly detrimental to the efficiency of said crew. 

Give your CQ staff plenty of advance notice that you have an eating disorder, and be prepared to sacrifice your dietary prejudices, at least temporarily. IMP-wise, there are vegetarian meals, halal meals, and kosher meals. When you eat fresh rats there are any number of food combinations available.


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## mainerjohnthomas (30 Aug 2006)

Pay attention to your body.  Whatever your morality may say, under intense physical stress your demands will be higher, and your bodies ability to synthesize will be more limited, so specialized diets that have worked for you in the past may land you in MIR our out on your butt.  I've been an industrial first aid attendant in mills and industry for ten years since getting out, and you would not believe what percentage of people I've had on Oxygen awaiting ambulance have been vegans whose diet didn't enable them to respond to periods of high demand.  In the army, high demand is the rule, and spotty supply is the norm, so you could quickly find yourself in a bad situation of your own devising.


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## exsemjingo (31 Aug 2006)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> Back to my original point, The nature of these CAFOs is the same as that of large cities, when enormous amounts of waste is concentrated in such a small area, it is impossible for the ecosystem to absorb. I highly doubt that most of these CAFOs can produce meat more economically than small farms if they were forced to cover the environmental costs as well.
> 
> <a href=http://www.earthsave.org/lifestyle/factfarm.htm>Source</a>



Why do you think that Factory Farms (oh my!) Feedlots and Slaughter Houses are exempted from to dealing with their environmental costs?  The fact that these places have a lot of waste to deal with does not necessarily mean it is not dealt with.  You could take the situation in Alberta for example, where nearly 5 million head of cattle in the province are sent to three major slaughterhouses in and around Brooks.  There are cities that draw their drinking water from downstream, and thus far there have been neither acute water shortages nor e-coli plagues.
The fact that they are efficient is apparent in the price of meat, which is cheap enough for most people to afford ie: not a luxury.  As far as environmental costs, these are also apparently borne, since water downstream from these operations remains drinkable with affordable treatment. 
No one said that these operations were pretty; only that they were economical.


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## Fishbone Jones (31 Aug 2006)

All these health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals dying of nothing.  ;D


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## paracowboy (31 Aug 2006)

recceguy said:
			
		

> All these health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals dying of nothing.  ;D


if they were really health nuts, they'd eat according to the Canada Food Guide. After all, those people's only vested interest is in getting Canada's citizens to eat healthy in order to reduce the over-tasked Health System.

But that would be crazy. After all, how would a couple hundred people who have dedicated their lives to studying nutrition know anything about how to eat healthy?


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## T3hHippie (12 Jul 2010)

Hello, I would like to ask one question. I'm 15 as of right now and I am planing to be basic infantry. I am also vegetarian which means I will not eat meat, seafood, poultry, also anything that has meat or animal extracts ( Gelatin). I am not a vegan so I have no problem with eating honey, milk, eggs etc. How would I go about eating on the field. I know there is some sort of packets or packages that you get, but is there vegetarian ones and if so am I allowed to trade? Thanks for the help. !!!!


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## Michael OLeary (12 Jul 2010)

There are vegetarian field meals in the system, and military dining halls have enough variety to serve your preferences.  You would not be the first vegetarian in the CF.


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## T3hHippie (12 Jul 2010)

Awesome!! Thanks!!


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## vonGarvin (13 Jul 2010)

T3hHippie said:
			
		

> Hello, I would like to ask one question. I'm 15 as of right now and I am planing to be basic infantry. I am also vegetarian which means I will not eat meat, seafood, poultry, also anything that has meat or animal extracts ( Gelatin). I am not a vegan so I have no problem with eating honey, milk, eggs etc. How would I go about eating on the field. I know there is some sort of packets or packages that you get, but is there vegetarian ones and if so am I allowed to trade? Thanks for the help. !!!!


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## TimBit (13 Jul 2010)

Techno:

He did however occasionnally indulge in ham. Vegans will no doubt say it's that meat that drove the world to the brink. Tsk...


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## The Bread Guy (13 Aug 2010)

This from MERX (also attached if link isn't working):


> .... The Department of National Defence (DND) has a requirement for Vegetarian Kosher Halal Rations as follows : Twelve (12) main course meals per case. Varieties include: Three(3) Florentine lasagna, three(3) vegetarian stew; three(3) cheese tortellini, three(3) pasta and garden vegetables. Must be Kosher and Halal certified.
> 
> Items are required to provide vegetarian and religious meals for
> Canadian Forces Personnel serving overseas as well as in Canada. All items shall be of the latest possible production, from date of delivery and shall be produced during the year of scheduled delivery.
> ...



More on the company here, and its MRE line here.


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## Ralph (14 Aug 2010)

Mmmm...bagel crisps...


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## KabulRat (13 Dec 2010)

We've had these for awhile...

We were on winter indoc in Northern Ontario in 2004 (?), and the QM was trying to get rid of the damn things...all we had was the Kosher/Halal meals.  I wouldn't feed them to my worst enemy.

I lived on patrol rats instead...mmm...beef jerky and chocolate bars for the entire time we were up there...great weight loss program!


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## Thompson_JM (14 Dec 2010)

KabulRat said:
			
		

> We've had these for awhile...
> 
> We were on winter indoc in Northern Ontario in 2004 (?), and the QM was trying to get rid of the damn things...all we had was the Kosher/Halal meals.  I wouldn't feed them to my worst enemy.
> 
> I lived on patrol rats instead...mmm...beef jerky and chocolate bars for the entire time we were up there...great weight loss program!


 :+1:

Compared to IMP's or MRE's those things taste like play-doh..... ugh....


I guess it's cheaper for DND to just buy the existing stuff then to make something better within our own system.... Oh well...


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## nhinha (11 Mar 2011)

Hello All

Just wondering if vegetarian food is available at all times in CF operations?

Thanks


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## aesop081 (11 Mar 2011)

nhinha said:
			
		

> at all times



No.


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## Michael OLeary (11 Mar 2011)

nhinha said:
			
		

> Hello All
> 
> Just wondering if vegetarian food is available at all times in CF operations?
> 
> Thanks



When dietary requirements are identified to the chain of command, reasonable measures will be made to ensure the correct rations are available. However, not all circumstances can be foreseen and sometimes spacial order items don't get where they are wanted on time, every time. So, no absolute guarantees can be made for such things.


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## nhinha (11 Mar 2011)

Thank you both, I suspected that whenever possible the accommodation will be made, however I do understand it can be difficult 

Thanks again


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## vonGarvin (11 Mar 2011)

nhinha said:
			
		

> Thank you both, I suspected that whenever possible the accommodation will be made, however I do understand it can be difficult
> 
> Thanks again


Of course, you could simply graze if the rations aren't available ;D


But, seriously, there are a variety of vegetarian IMPs and other ration choices out there, you must remember that not every dietary preference can be accomodated.  If they were, I'd have pork with every meal (bacon, ham and pork!).  As it is, I have to eat Iron Lung from time to time.....


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## nhinha (11 Mar 2011)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Of course, you could simply graze if the rations aren't available ;D
> 
> 
> But, seriously, there are a variety of vegetarian IMPs and other ration choices out there, you must remember that not every dietary preference can be accomodated.  If they were, I'd have pork with every meal (bacon, ham and pork!).  As it is, I have to eat Iron Lung from time to time.....



lol I know, if is a matter of life or death you have to eat whatever is available, in case there is any. I'm sure there is always water so I will be fine lol


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## Brutus (11 Mar 2011)

Well, not just in cases of life and death. In the CF, eating is actually part of your job. It technically is not optional. I suspect you will find you are going to have veggie options most of the time, and when you do get a meat ration you will likely be able to get away with trading your meat ration for a non-meat/less meat ration with a buddy. However, the chances you will have to eat meat at some point in your career are pretty good.


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## Jebus (13 Mar 2011)

Can I ask the specific reason why your a vegetarian? 

If it's cause you don't like meat, then you should rethink the role nutrition has on your body for recovery and energy in the field.

Meat is a high source of energy and nutrients, we owe our big evolved brains to cooked meat.


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## vonGarvin (13 Mar 2011)

Jebus said:
			
		

> Can I ask the specific reason why *your *  a vegetarian?
> 
> If it's *cause *you don't like meat, then you should rethink the role nutrition has on your body for recovery and energy in the field.
> 
> Meat is a high source of energy and nutrients, *we owe our big evolved brains to cooked meat*.



Then why not use your omnivorous brain to check your spelling?  


One thing I've learned about people is that they make their own choices for their own reasons.  If she is a vegetarian for health, moral or other reasons, then that's her choice, and she seems to have acknowledged that it's not always practicable to avoid meat.


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## sunnylovee (18 Jun 2014)

I have spoken to Hatchet Man who said I should post my question here.

 A bit of background I have been vegan my entire life, I was a cadet when I was in youth and they accommodated me during "training" summer camps at the mess hall, and during our mess hall banquets.

I am not here to discuss my moral and ethical values on being a vegan I'm simply here to ask if it is possible to remain vegan during any period. I found 1 thread on vegetarians which is unhelpful to some extent as vegan does not eat cheese, butter, any other dairy or eggs.
I only know 2 people who served one is quite older and cannot answer my question as it would be irrelevant information from the 1940s and the other passed away a few years ago.

I am interested in becoming a medical officer, second choice being a med tech. I am currently a certified holistic nutritionist as of right now. I work out 7 days a week and am quite sure I will pass physical as well as mental.

Does anyone have any insight , or helpful hints, while I am reasonable person and expect if I was in combat overseas I'm going to most likely have to deal with vegetarian (hopefully not though) I will never actually eat meat itself. I know some may find this unreasonable and as I said I do not want to get into a heated debate on the choices of eating meat.

I've read some replies that the physical endurance during training is going to be unrealistic as a vegetarian but as I stated I do excessive physical work outs  6 days a week 7th day doing yoga and I am in pretty good physical condition I think I will be okay.

Anyways thanks for taking the time to read and I hope to hear some replies and thoughts on being vegan during combat situations ect.


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## ModlrMike (18 Jun 2014)

Having different dietary needs than your peers is no impediment to serving. The chain of command is aware that different people eat different things, but you have to let them know your restrictions. 

I know we have vegetarian, halal, and kosher ration packs, but I couldn't say for certain that we have vegan. That being the case, in austere conditions you may have to make a hard choice and eat something you might normally not want to.

In the end, it's your responsibility to let people know you have different dietary requirements. The CF will accomodate when it can, but no one can account for all situations.

Also, always have something on hand that can fill out a "regular" meal.


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## sunnylovee (18 Jun 2014)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Having different dietary needs than your peers is no impediment to serving. The chain of command is aware that different people eat different things, but you have to let them know your restrictions.
> 
> I know we have vegetarian, halal, and kosher ration packs, but I couldn't say for certain that we have vegan. That being the case, in austere conditions you may have to make a hard choice and eat something you might normally not want to.
> 
> ...



thank you for your excellent post, I will for sure let the right people know. I know in not the best situations I may have to eat vegetarian, is it common for others to have their own food brought with them to certain training or barracks areas?
I have protein shakes I use and a handful of snack bars, that are meal replacements or used as snacks for more nutrition, as I said I work out quite vigorously so I eat quite a bit...


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## runormal (18 Jun 2014)

On the three courses I have been there was _seldom_ any issue for any vegetarian people. I can't recall a vegan, and like Modlr Mike said in a worst case you may have to eat vegetarian or extreme cases something else. Sometimes in the field it has been less than ideal.

Issues I have seen so far:

On my BMQ - L course there was one vegetarian who never received a vegetarian meal during the second FTX even though they asked beforehand. So yes it can happen. He wasn't in my section so I don't know the whole story. He brought it up in the ECR and he also said that while it happened other candidates shared food with him. But I know there was special vegetarian meals every meal during the first FTX as well on the range.

On my DP 1 for our field ex one guy requested halal ration packs and while he did get them,  he only got dinner meals to eat 3x a day as that was all they had, which was repetitive but the world didn't end. 

At my home unit, it has never been an issue that I have been aware of.


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## PuckChaser (18 Jun 2014)

sunnylovee said:
			
		

> thank you for your excellent post, I will for sure let the right people know. I know in not the best situations I may have to eat vegetarian, is it common for others to have their own food brought with them to certain training or barracks areas?
> I have protein shakes I use and a handful of snack bars, that are meal replacements or used as snacks for more nutrition, as I said I work out quite vigorously so I eat quite a bit...



Think of it this way: Can you carry enough protein shakes in your backpack to sustain you for weeks at a time? Will the CF resupply your protein shakes? (unlikely unless you get lucky and find the issued ones). Also, storing food where you sleep is a bad bad idea in the field, and having more than a few granola bars in the barracks will bring in bugs.

You have to think more beyond training environments, ModlrMike put it the best: you need to be able to eat non-vegan food in austere conditions, or you'll become a casualty. I personally have never seen a vegan ration pack, our vegetarian, halal and kosher meals are all the same package (these: http://www.myownmeals.com/)


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## stealthylizard (18 Jun 2014)

I think the closest ration to being Vegan is the macaroni and cheese.  Yes it has "cheese", but I remain skeptical as to it being "real cheese".  More along the lines of a processed cheese product like cheese whiz.  Maybe someone can post the contents of it.  Everything else has meat.  There is also the omelette with salsa, but that contains eggs.


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## Messorius (19 Jun 2014)

There's cheese tortellini too, I think.  

Even with those, if there isn't dairy/eggs in it, there'll probably be sugar, so depending on how that was processed vegan/strictly vegetarian is a no(plus there's leather, feathers and wool in your issued kit...)


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## PMedMoe (19 Jun 2014)

No go on the Mac & Cheese or the Cheese Tortellini; they both have eggs in them.  See reply #10 here.


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## Lilswitche (23 Jun 2014)

Coming from a former cheesemaker, all processed cheeses are made with real cheeses.  Even those made with small amounts of real cheese (ie. fat free cheese slices) contain ALOT of milk products that are a biproduct of the cheese making process (skim milk powders, whey proteins, etc). 

Also, 'Cheese Whiz' is pretty much as close to real cheese as you can get within the 'processed cheese' realm; it's 30%+ real cheese with water (50%~), powders, and dry chemical for pH, salt and phosphate levels. 

In terms of eating Vegan, most times during your career you can be accomodated, but expect that there will be slips and you will not received your requested meal. Plan for the worst, and when in need you can usually bet that people will also try and give you a helping hand.


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## sarahsmom (23 Jun 2014)

The OP didn't say whether he's going Reg or Res. I'm a little concerned about his getting through BMQ with its 5 minute timings for meals and such. There isn't any time to discuss with the cooks what's actually in the food, and most of the time you only have time to inhale it without looking at it. 
I don't remember there being very many vegan choices at St Jean, beyond the salad bar and the veggie side dishes. And keeping food in your cubicle at the mega is a big no no. You may get away with a protein bar or two, but anytime food was seen on our floor we got our beds flipped.


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## Pusser (25 Jun 2014)

You're going to have difficulty maintaining a vegan diet in the CF.  Under current policy, the CF is under no obligation to accomodate any dietary requirements other than for medical reasons.  That doesn't mean we won't provide.  It simply means there are no guarantees.  I can also say that accomodating one individual, out of hundreds, will be low on the priority list.  Bringing your own food is not impossible, but is definitely frowned upon or even prohibited in some situations, simply because of vermin issues.

In my last ship, we did have some vegetarians on board, who managed to make it through each deployment without starving and I did try to ensure the menu had vegetarian choices other than the salad bar.  I also know we turned a blind eye to them bringing a few of their own items on board.  A vegan situation would be quite different, however.  Keep in mind that it would be virtually impossible to prevent cross-contamination of utensils, pots, cooking surfaces, etc. with non-vegan foodstuffs.


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## brihard (25 Jun 2014)

Lilswitche said:
			
		

> Coming from a former cheesemaker, all processed cheeses are made with real cheeses.  Even those made with small amounts of real cheese (ie. fat free cheese slices) contain ALOT of milk products that are a biproduct of the cheese making process (skim milk powders, whey proteins, etc).
> 
> Also, 'Cheese Whiz' is pretty much as close to real cheese as you can get within the 'processed cheese' realm; it's 30%+ real cheese with water (50%~), powders, and dry chemical for pH, salt and phosphate levels.
> 
> In terms of eating Vegan, most times during your career you can be accomodated, but expect that there will be slips and you will not received your requested meal. Plan for the worst, and when in need you can usually bet that people will also try and give you a helping hand.



Blessed are the cheesemakers?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-xLUEMj6cwA


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## Occam (25 Jun 2014)

stealthylizard said:
			
		

> I think the closest ration to being Vegan is the macaroni and cheese.  Yes it has "cheese", but I remain skeptical as to it being "real cheese".



I'm fairly certain that on RCN ships, the second ingredient in macaroni and cheese is "Crayon, Crayola, yellow".


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## dapaterson (25 Jun 2014)

Occam said:
			
		

> I'm fairly certain that on RCN ships, the second ingredient in macaroni and cheese is "Crayon, Crayola, yellow".


I do not think the budget is sufficient to pay for real Crayola.


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## Journeyman (25 Jun 2014)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I do not think the budget is sufficient to pay for real Crayola.


Pips/crowns and Div patches, Brown leather jackets and RCAF Ptes wearing propellers rather than chevrons, Nelson's Eye and Crayola.....each service invests as it sees fit   

      >


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## dimsum (25 Jun 2014)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Pips/crowns and Div patches, Brown leather jackets and RCAF Ptes wearing propellers rather than chevrons, Nelson's Eye and Crayola.....each service invests as it sees fit
> 
> >



Yes, but we can just get the propellers from the local Air Cadet sqns, so that's zero-cost   >


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## Nudibranch (9 Jul 2014)

Pusser said:
			
		

> You're going to have difficulty maintaining a vegan diet in the CF.  Under current policy, the CF is under no obligation to accomodate any dietary requirements other than for medical reasons.



And if the medical reasons require something that might be impossible to get on deployment, such as a guaranteed gluten free diet for a Celiac sufferer, that's a PCAT and release (those who just prefer to eat GF but don't have "must" on their med docs are fine). 

The CAF doesn't have to provide vegan food (and does not provide vegan IMP's for ex), and if for some unknown reason vegan was medically required, that person would be medically unfit for the CAF. That said, I know one vegan member who made it through basic on the PB packets and the, errr, bread. Lost a ton of weight and looked like s#!t, but he made it. In garrison it shouldn't be an issue, and on deployment, well, you eat what's avaialble so I wouldn't count on being able to stay vegan.


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## Brasidas (15 Jul 2014)

sunnylovee said:
			
		

> Does anyone have any insight , or helpful hints, while I am reasonable person and expect if I was in combat overseas I'm going to most likely have to deal with vegetarian (hopefully not though) I will never actually eat meat itself. I know some may find this unreasonable and as I said I do not want to get into a heated debate on the choices of eating meat.



If your philosophy is more important than your ability to function in a situation where others are dependant upon your effectiveness, you should actively avoid putting yourself in that situation.

I've had vegetarians repeatedly request appropriate rations in a timely fashion, remind their CoC again with 24h notice, and confirm before deployment to the field, and been offered only standard rations in the field. I've been on three to four month taskings where "vegetarian options" consisted of fish and pasta with cheese sauce. Had one vegan complain for weeks, informed his home unit CoC, and attempt to claim one hell of a list of meals at the end of a summer. It wasn't approved.

You're unlikely to be happy, and depending on how stoic or outspoken you are, others are unlikely to be happy with you.


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## Ningen (18 May 2015)

Hi, everybody!

I am in the process of enlisting into the CAF. I have passed the CFAT, the Personality-Trait Reliability Test, the interview, and hoping that I will pass my Medical Assessment as well. I passed all the tests, however I am waiting on my blood test results to come back before they send my assessment to Ottawa for further studying.

My question, as a Vegan, can I go through BMQ? Also, will I be able to eat anything in garrison and/or overseas missions?

This is something I am truly concerned about, because I have been Vegan for a long time, and I am perfectly content with my diet and nutrition. Please provide me with as much information as possible regarding this subject.


Thank you,
Ningen


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## brihard (18 May 2015)

Ningen said:
			
		

> Hi, everybody!
> 
> I am in the process of enlisting into the CAF. I have passed the CFAT, the Personality-Trait Reliability Test, the interview, and hoping that I will pass my Medical Assessment as well. I passed all the tests, however I am waiting on my blood test results to come back before they send my assessment to Ottawa for further studying.
> 
> ...



Vegetarian? Sure. Hard core vegan? Might be quite a bit harder. I'm fuzzy on what all the lines in the sand are and I obviously don't know your particulars. But while reasonable accoodations are made for vegetarians, there's only so far they can go, particularly when it comes to prepackaged field rations.


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## mariomike (18 May 2015)

Ningen said:
			
		

> Please provide me with as much information as possible regarding this subject.



In addition to the above vegan discussion, see also,

All Things Vegetarian Thread  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/30884.0
9 pages.


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## q_1966 (23 May 2015)

Being a Vegetarian, yes no issues. Vegan...I wish you luck (I have the greatest respect for Vegans as they go all the way not halfway) unless something has changed significantly since I retired from the military in 2011 as a Cook, you might be SOL. The sugar is likely not approved vegan so it could have bonemeal in it http://www.vegsource.com/jo/qa/qasugar.htm which means no duff (dessert) and splenda for your coffee.


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## PuckChaser (24 May 2015)

Here's what we've gotten in recent years for Vegetarian/Kosher/Halal meals: http://www.myownmeals.com/mres-rations/.

Likely, that's what you're going to get in a field scenario. Are you willing to eat normal rations if that's all that's available in an austere environment? If not, you may be setting yourself for failure right from the get-go. Special meals are sometimes difficult to come by, and although there are normal rations without meat, there are no vegan rations period AFAIK.


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## Treemoss (24 May 2015)

Ningen said:
			
		

> Hi, everybody!
> 
> I am in the process of enlisting into the CAF. I have passed the CFAT, the Personality-Trait Reliability Test, the interview, and hoping that I will pass my Medical Assessment as well. I passed all the tests, however I am waiting on my blood test results to come back before they send my assessment to Ottawa for further studying.
> 
> ...



If you're vegan during BMQ it'll be a little rough, as a lot of the food is generic in the sense that it's basically your standard caffateria food. There is a vegetarian station, but a lot of the time the vege meals will be made with eggs or milk. You might get lucky with the questionable bean burrito, tomato sauce pasta or the.. lovely.. tofu teriyake dishes. Your best bet is the salad bar and stocking up on the beans or just take extra bread for all your carby needs. 


And personally.. the tofu.. should always be your last resort.

And the tofu


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## RedcapCrusader (24 May 2015)

I did my Basic with a vegan, long story short, she's no longer a vegan. She preferred to be less of a burden to the Armed Forces in order to better serve Canada, as she intended to do in the first place.


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## Pusser (27 May 2015)

A number of folks here have been saying that being a vegetarian in the CF is not an issue.  Wrong.  It is an issue.  Yes, we all have stories of vegetarians we know that have managed and that's fine, but it can be difficult to maintain a vegetarian diet in the CF and no one should be misled into thinking that it's "not an issue."  As I've mentioned before, the only guarantees with regard to diet in the CF  at this point  are for medical reasons.  Yes, most kitchens will try to accommodate folks as much as they can, but there are no guarantees and no regulatory requirement to do so.  Maintaining a vegetarian diet will mostly be an individual responsibility and will take forethought and planning.  Sometimes, the only vegetarian choice from the kitchen may be the potatoes...

On a similar note, if you're "hard core" vegan, vegetarian, kosher, halal, etc, and cannot eat anything that has been touched by a utensil that has been used for something else, you can forget that, because that's just not happening.  We do not maintain vegan, vegetarian, kosher, halal, etc. kitchens.


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## Brasidas (28 May 2015)

...and today's vegetarian option: fish


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## PMedMoe (28 May 2015)

Brasidas said:
			
		

> ...and today's vegetarian option: fish



 :rofl:

Sorry, I just think that's funny.  

I remember once in Borden (circa 1995) there were a couple of females who were "vegetarians of convenience" so that they could get a fresher or better prepared meal.  One day on the food line, one of them was complaining about whatever was being served and I turned to her and said, "So, how was that Big Mac I saw you chowing down on over the weekend?"   >

OTOH, in the same time period, just before my gallbladder surgery, I was on a low/no-fat diet and they didn't even have calorie reduced salad dressing.

Ya can't win 'em all.


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## mariomike (28 May 2015)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I remember once in Borden (circa 1995) there were a couple of females who were "vegetarians of convenience" so that they could get a fresher or better prepared meal.  One day on the food line, one of them was complaining about whatever was being served and I turned to her and said, "So, how was that Big Mac I saw you chowing down on over the weekend?"   >



Flexitarians?


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## Humphrey Bogart (28 May 2015)

Pusser said:
			
		

> A number of folks here have been saying that being a vegetarian in the CF is not an issue.  Wrong.  It is an issue.  Yes, we all have stories of vegetarians we know that have managed and that's fine, but it can be difficult to maintain a vegetarian diet in the CF and no one should be misled into thinking that it's "not an issue."  As I've mentioned before, the only guarantees with regard to diet in the CF  at this point  are for medical reasons.  Yes, most kitchens will try to accommodate folks as much as they can, but there are no guarantees and no regulatory requirement to do so.  Maintaining a vegetarian diet will mostly be an individual responsibility and will take forethought and planning.  Sometimes, the only vegetarian choice from the kitchen may be the potatoes...
> 
> On a similar note, if you're "hard core" vegan, vegetarian, kosher, halal, etc, and cannot eat anything that has been touched by a utensil that has been used for something else, you can forget that, because that's just not happening.  We do not maintain vegan, vegetarian, kosher, halal, etc. kitchens.



This goes for any diet in the CAF, not just vegetarian.  I try and maintain a paleo diet as much as possible.  Pretty hard if your eating in a CAF kitchen or having to consume crappy box lunches.  Moral of the story, you'll eat what the military gives you.


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## Pusser (29 May 2015)

I know of one case where a sailor on a course had asked for box lunches with no pork products (he was Muslim).  He was given ham sandwiches every day.  The kitchen was asked why they kept doing that and their response was that the request had been "no pork," so they gave him ham to be sure he didn't get any pork...  :facepalm:


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## Blackadder1916 (29 May 2015)

Pusser said:
			
		

> . . . their response was that the request had been "no pork," so they gave him ham to be sure he didn't get any pork...  :facepalm:



So that partly solves the age old mystery of the meat in box lunch sandwiches.


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## RedcapCrusader (2 Jun 2015)

Pusser said:
			
		

> I know of one case where a sailor on a course had asked for box lunches with no pork products (he was Muslim).  He was given ham sandwiches every day.  The kitchen was asked why they kept doing that and their response was that the request had been "no pork," so they gave him ham to be sure he didn't get any pork...  :facepalm:



This has got to be a joke.  :facepalm:


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## PMedMoe (2 Jun 2015)

RedcapCrusader said:
			
		

> This has got to be a joke.  :facepalm:



I'd say unfortunately not.  We had a person on a course who was a vegan.  Her box lunch contained a hard boiled egg and other non-vegan items.


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## ballz (2 Jun 2015)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> So that partly solves the age old mystery of the meat in box lunch sandwiches.



Now all I wanna know is why all the people who don't request "no pork" end up with ham sandwiches every day!


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## Pusser (3 Jun 2015)

ballz said:
			
		

> Now all I wanna know is why all the people who don't request "no pork" end up with ham sandwiches every day!



Because ham is a relatively cheap, innocuous and inoffensive (except for Jews, Muslims, vegans, vegetarians, etc) lunch meat.  

My wife actually keeps an "emergency ham" on hand to be used when there's nothing else available to eat - then gets upset when I make ham salad out of it (which is far as I'm concerned is the only good way to eat ham).


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## ModlrMike (3 Jun 2015)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Because ham is a relatively cheap, innocuous and inoffensive (except for Jews, Muslims, vegans, vegetarians, etc) lunch meat.
> 
> My wife actually keeps an "emergency ham" on hand to be used when there's nothing else available to eat - then gets upset when I make ham salad out of it (which is far as I'm concerned is the only good way to eat ham).



The second best way is in pea soup. But thats where you put the trimmings from the first option.


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## LayeSone (20 Jun 2015)

Hey, I'm new to the forum and I recently took interest in the navy. I always wanted to be in the military but only ever paid attention to the army until now

My question is for anyone, vegan or non vegan in the navy, is it possible?  I've been having a really hard time imagining myself going back to eating meat, dairy or eggs. If it is possible,  what could I possibly eat?

I have researched some food in the navy and it looks as if I would only live off of potatoes and some veggies, which is fine. But do they serve these foods every night?  Would I be in a position where I would have to give in? I would be okay with a compromise every now and then but not daily.

Thanks.


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## The Bread Guy (21 Jun 2015)

LunchMeat said:
			
		

> This has got to be a joke.  :facepalm:


If the cooks are of the generation thinking, "of course I know where chickens come from - the supermarket",  they may now know ham is from the same beast as pork.


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## sarahsmom (21 Jun 2015)

LayeSone said:
			
		

> Hey, I'm new to the forum and I recently took interest in the navy. I always wanted to be in the military but only ever paid attention to the army until now
> 
> My question is for anyone, vegan or non vegan in the navy, is it possible?  I've been having a really hard time imagining myself going back to eating meat, dairy or eggs. If it is possible,  what could I possibly eat?
> 
> ...


The navy gets its food from the same place the army and the air force do. It's been stated before, if you read through from the start of this thread, unless you are vegan for religious reasons, the military will not accommodate you. And even with religious reasons, sometimes the accommodations are not what you are expecting. 
While some kind of veggies are served every day, I'm pretty sure there is butter or cream (dairy) used in just about all the prep. Very rarely do I remember ever seeing just plain steamed veggies or potatoes.
And field rations are often NOT vegan friendly, even if they might be vegetarian friendly. I remember looking forward to end-ex so I could see a green veggie on my plate once again.


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## Fishbone Jones (21 Jun 2015)

LayeSone said:
			
		

> Hey, I'm new to the forum and I recently took interest in the navy. I always wanted to be in the military but only ever paid attention to the army until now
> 
> My question is for anyone, vegan or non vegan in the navy, is it possible?  I've been having a really hard time imagining myself going back to eating meat, dairy or eggs. If it is possible,  what could I possibly eat?
> 
> ...



You've got ten pages of the subject to read here, before you ask any more questions about it.

---Staff---


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## Pusser (22 Jun 2015)

paleomedic said:
			
		

> The navy gets its food from the same place the army and the air force do. It's been stated before, if you read through from the start of this thread, unless you are vegan for religious reasons, the military will not accommodate you. And even with religious reasons, sometimes the accommodations are not what you are expecting.
> While some kind of veggies are served every day, I'm pretty sure there is butter or cream (dairy) used in just about all the prep. Very rarely do I remember ever seeing just plain steamed veggies or potatoes.
> And field rations are often NOT vegan friendly, even if they might be vegetarian friendly. I remember looking forward to end-ex so I could see a green veggie on my plate once again.



No.  CF food services do not accommodate for religious reasons.  This does not mean we force Jews or Muslims to eat pork and for the most part, our standard menu planning practices (e.g. choice of three main courses) will enable people to avoid certain foods and still eat, but we do not specifically accommodate for religious diets.  We do not keep kosher or hel-al kitchens.  In other words, if one wishes to not eat pork, one can do so without going hungry, but if you want a kosher meal, you can pretty much forget it.

The only things we accommodate for in food services are medical requirements.


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## Brasidas (22 Jun 2015)

I remember a mess dinner about three years back where the RSVPs had three meal options, beef/chicken/vegetarian, and one vegetarian private got her meal preference "satisfied" by just lots more side salad.


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## Harris (22 Jun 2015)

LayeSone said:
			
		

> I have researched some food in the navy and it looks as if I would only live off of potatoes and some veggies, which is fine. But do they serve these foods every night?  Would I be in a position where I would have to give in? I would be okay with a compromise every now and then but not daily.



OK, I wanted to resist, but I cannot.

First off are you vegan, or not?  Your quote above seems to imply you are vegan sometimes, but if that makes eating too hard, then you "give in", and eat non-vegan items.  Isn't that like saying your, "kind of pregnant"?  I admit, I don't see what the big deal is with eating meat and meat products, but to appear to do so only when it is convenient seems odd to me.

Here it is up straight for all of you non-meat eaters (and by products etc...).  If you join the CAF and stay in long enough to actually do your job and deploy to the field, on the sea, or in the air, I can pretty much guarantee that at some point your options for a meal will be what is put on the table in front of you (via mess, haybox, IMP, or locally sourced food), or go without.  Possibly for many days in a row.  If you are OK with this, then by all means come on in.

True story follows:

During a course I was an instructor on, many of the foreign students couldn't eat pork for religious reasons.  We requested a non-pork substitute for their meals and the kitchen said they could provide at least one selection each meal as a pork free option.  For breakfast they offered both pork and turkey bacon.  About 5 weeks into the course the kitchen pulled an instructor aside and said they had to cancel the turkey bacon.  The reason was because when they read the ingredients carefully, they noticed that pork was one of the ingredients.  OPPS.   The students had to go without for the remainder of the course as an alternate could not be found.  I know for a fact that these types of issues happens quite often.

If you have a moral, ethical, or whatever else reason that drives you to not eat meat, then perhaps the CAF is not for you.  I hear this place is looking for a few good men/women: http://edenvillage.net/13.HTM

Bottom line is you will never be *guaranteed* a vegan, halal, kosher, etc... meal in the CAF.  The staff will *try* to accommodate whenever possible, but don't pin your hopes and dreams on it.


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## Brasidas (22 Jun 2015)

Harris said:
			
		

> ...your options for a meal will be what is put on the table in front of you (via mess, haybox, IMP, or locally sourced food), or go without.  Possibly for many days in a row.  If you are OK with this, then by all means come on in....



Except that shouldn't be an option, as it compromises the mission.

If I've got two troops to get two troops' worth of work done, including heavy labour, and the food isn't vegan, is it ok for my one vegan troop to just eat the crackers and apple from their box lunch? Maybe they get weak, maybe they get less sharp, and one of the two gets hurt because of their conscientious decision? Nine day exercise, they're going to be tired and short on sleep as it is. Add hunger on top of that, and they're ineffective.

Likewise, if I've got three troops, knowing that the one isn't going to be good for hard tasks by the end of the ex, I get to manage my mission around their personal preferences. I have to task the other two with the hard labour jobs to be effective and avoid injury.

Folks that I've worked with who are effective are the ones who remind their chain of command on multiple occasions, each time they go on an exercise or tasking, of their dietary concerns. Then, when things get screwed up, they deal as best they can. When it comes down to it, they eat when and what they have to.

Vegans and vegetarians who are incapable of adapting need not apply. Everybody will come out better that way.


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## Harris (22 Jun 2015)

You've summed up my intent 100%.  I couldn't find a sarcasm smiley for that line in my post.

Everyone needs to do their fair share of the work.  If you can't do that because you have some objection to food, light, or some other issue, then please reconsider your prospects with the CAF.  Otherwise all you will be doing is making it harder for everyone else.


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## CountDC (22 Jun 2015)

I am quite sure that it is really impossible to get a true kosher meal in the military, the best you can hope for is to get a none pork showing option.  Even when I have asked for eggs, no bacon it has often been on the same grill with the same utensils used so guess what - small amount of pork on it. 

I like how for IMPs kosher is lumped in with the vegeterian meals.  As such in a unit that has members regularly reminding them of dietary requirements there is no excuse not to have IMPs available for those members to eat.  I know I can walk down to my QM right now and he will have the kosher/vegeterian in stock just in case needed.  How hard is it really to include a box or two in your orders when stocking the shelves.  

On ship it is easier to stick to a vegetarian or vegan diet than in the field as there is a full kitchen with a good stock of rations but it may involve eating the same salads quite often (and being called bugs while offered a carrot). 

Ultimately be prepared to make do the best you can - the only rule I have stuck to is not eating any visible pork.  No pork chops, hot dogs (military ones always have pork in my experience), ham, bacon, sausages (unless true turkey bacon/sausages which do exist but are hard to find and I do read the package).  Easy enough as there is always other choices available.


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## mariomike (22 Jun 2015)

CountDC said:
			
		

> I am quite sure that it is really impossible to get a true kosher meal in the military, the best you can hope for is to get a none pork showing option.



Something I read in another discussion here may be relevant,

FOOD
"During wartime religious tenants regarding the eating of prohibited foods can be waived. I‘m not sure if this would or would not apply for training exercises or deployments but for those in this situation guidance from an Imam and/or Rabbi should clarify it."
http://army.ca/forums/threads/12950/post-55299.html#msg55299
Reply #7

Individuals might ( in some situations ) choose to be flexible in their vegetarian/vegan preferences.


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## LayeSone (22 Jun 2015)

Thanks for all of the replies. I have looked through the thread but I didn't find any info specific to the navy. I will admit to skipping quite a few posts due the the whole meat eater vs veg argument that came up. I may have missed something and I'm sorry if I did.

I am vegan at the moment and I never "cheat". I was just wondering if I could remain vegan or if I would have to become vegetarian if I joined the navy. 
I have spoken to vegans in and out of the military and they all (surprisingly) convinced me to apply anyway,  even if it means comprising my morals. 

They said (military guys/gals) that they had to eat vegetarian when they couldn't eat vegan and have yet to be in a position where they had to eat  meat.

I will eat vegan when I can, and if I can't I will eat vegetarian. I don't know how the navy works but if I'm in a position where I absolutely have to eat meat, I don't know  what I would do. I haven't eaten the stuff in so long, it would be equivalent to the average Candian eating a dog or cat. I wouldn't be surprised if it made me sick as well. I guess when I get in,  I'll just "go with the flow" 

Again, thanks for the replies.


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## Brasidas (23 Jun 2015)

LayeSone said:
			
		

> Thanks for all of the replies. I have looked through the thread but I didn't find any info specific to the navy. I will admit to skipping quite a few posts due the the whole meat eater vs veg argument that came up. I may have missed something and I'm sorry if I did.
> 
> I am vegan at the moment and I never "cheat". I was just wondering if I could remain vegan or if I would have to become vegetarian if I joined the navy.
> I have spoken to vegans in and out of the military and they all (surprisingly) convinced me to apply anyway,  even if it means comprising my morals.
> ...



Then expect not to be surprised. I've eaten at navy mess halls for weeks at a time, with menus just like those in army bases across the country. I know that you've skipped posts. Refer to Pusser's post about potatoes sometimes being the only vegetarian dish available; he's navy. Likewise, all services use the same field rations. There are special vegetarian/kosher/halal packs, that usually have to be specially requested and may not be stocked. Few of the field rations are vegetarian, let alone vegan. Boxed lunches are another stream that you'll get, and I've rarely seen a vegetarian one, and some of the few times that I have, it gets mixed up with the others and handed out to one of the dozens of other guys by mistake.

You're usually going to be eating food from a mess hall while at shore or ship's kitchen at sea. While on course, especially at the beginning of your career, you're rarely going to have options to go out and by your own meal or keep food where you live. As Harris and I said, if you're not eating a proper meal, you're ineffective, and if the only proper meals that are available aren't vegetarian... My comment of "...and today's vegetarian option: fish" wasn't flippant humour, it was an actual listing off of Wainwright's vegetarian option on the menu on a given day.


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## LayeSone (23 Jun 2015)

I've been speaking to vegans/vegetarians who served and they are giving me tips on how to get by. 
I'll try to manage.  Others have managed before me regardless of the trouble they may have run into. If they can make it work,  I can make it work.


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## mariomike (23 Jun 2015)

LayeSone said:
			
		

> I've been speaking to vegans/vegetarians who served and they are giving me tips on how to get by.
> I'll try to manage.  Others have managed before me regardless of the trouble they may have run into. If they can make it work,  I can make it work.



They used to send us into the old slaughterhouses in the Junction from time to time for industrial accidents. The animals came in by railway. It was the busiest abattoir in Canada. ( It's just another big box shopping mall now. Like it never existed. )  

If going inside that place wouldn't turn you into a Vegetarian, nothing would.


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## CountDC (23 Jun 2015)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Something I read in another discussion here may be relevant,
> 
> FOOD
> "During wartime religious tenants regarding the eating of prohibited foods can be waived. I‘m not sure if this would or would not apply for training exercises or deployments but for those in this situation guidance from an Imam and/or Rabbi should clarify it."



In general the Rabbi side has agreed that eating of prohibited foods can be waived if a life is at risk so depending on the circumstances it could apply to training exercises.  Going 4 days without food because it isn't kosher and you are a driver puts peoples life at risk.

*For the OP * - navy you can make it as vegetarian but I think vegan would be hard.  Basically there is enough options every meal so that you do not have to eat meat and I am sure you would have no problem finding someone willing to eat your steak.


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## Ningen (3 Sep 2015)

Good morning, friends:

I cannot describe the happiness and anxiety that I feel now that I am two weeks away from going to BMQ. I just found out yesterday!!!

I am Vegan and have been for a long time. It is a lifestyle that I have adopted and am completely satisfied with. I understand that there are Vegetarian MRE's for the recruits, however they are not Vegan as they contain dairy and egg products.

Please give me your advice as to how can I survive BMQ. I want to stay true to myself and not go astray of the path that I have chosen. What should I do, friends? Please help me!

Regards,
Ningen


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## 211RadOp (3 Sep 2015)

Here is where you can start looking.  11 pages on Vegetarian/Vegan

http://army.ca/forums/threads/30884.0.html

Looking back, Brihard pointed you to that thread back in May.


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## Loachman (3 Sep 2015)

You asked the same question in May of this year, in the thread with which I am about to merge this one, and received a few answers. Do you think that anything has changed in the CF ration world since?

MREs (US field rations) are not normally used by the CF. We use IMPs, which are Canadian made.

You are going to have to adapt or change your career choice.

Good luck with whatever you choose to do and how you choose to do it.

And, now that I have merged these two threads, I see that your previous post, to which I referred above, was merged into this one back then. Please do not continue to start new threads on the same topic. It won't get you any different answers.


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## MedCorps (3 Sep 2015)

Ningen said:
			
		

> Please give me your advice as to how can I survive BMQ. I want to stay true to myself and not go astray of the path that I have chosen. What should I do, friends? Please help me!



A great part of joining the Profession of Arms and going to BMQ is becoming acculturated to the military way of life and quirky culture. Part of this acculturation is learning that you are less important than the organization, and that staying true to the organization will become staying true unto yourself. Sounds crazy... I know! It is a strange concept for you now, but assuming you make it suitably far into BMQ you will have an epiphany (likely when you have not slept much, cold, calorie deprived and are on fire piquet at 3 am). 

You will soon find that the organization will keep you on the path to righteousness and will not lead you astray. You will need not worry about this any longer. 

Good luck on BMQ. 

MC


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