# Cadets and the C7, and other rifles. Let me end the discussion once and for all



## cplkogan

CAdets are allowed to fire the C7, this is a direct copy of our training orders:

USE OF C7/8 WITHIN THE CCO 


GENERAL 


1. This annex governs the use of C7/8 service rifles within the CCO. 

2. Only familiarization firing may be authorized on the C7/8. B-GL-385-001/PT-001 “The Rifle 5.56mm C7 and Carbine 5.56mm C8” Chapter 5, Annex A, Appendices 1, 3 and 4 should be used for guidance. 

3. C7/8 firing, other than that authorized and approved for CSTC training, will be conducted only with the approval of the RCSU CO. 

4. C7/8 use for drill purposes is not authorized. 

5. The bayonet is not authorized for use during C7/8 training. 

SEA CADETS 

6. C7/8 firing is not authorized at the CSTC. 

7. During authorized cadet corps training, cadets having successfully completed phase three or higher and Cadet Instructors are authorized to conduct familiarization firing with Regular Force (Reg F) or Primary Reserve (P Res) units, with the caveat that training resources and ammunition are to be provided at no cost to the CCO. 

ARMY CADETS 

8. C7/8 firing is authorized as part of the approved CSTC programme. 

9. At the cadet corps, cadets qualified Silver Star level or higher and Cadet Instructors are authorized to conduct familiarization firing with Reg F or P Res units. All training resources are to be provided by the Reg F or P Res units with the following exceptions: 

a. qualified Large-bore Range Safety Officer (RSO) may be Cadet Instructors or CIs; and 

b. the ammunition may be provided by the RCSU on an as available basis. 

10. Familiarization firing conducted as RDA is authorized. 

AIR CADETS 

11. C7/8 firing is not authorized at the CSTC. 

12. During authorized squadron training, cadets having successfully completed proficiency level three or higher and Cadet Instructors are authorized to conduct familiarization firing with 
Reg F or P Res units, with the caveat that training resources and ammunition are to be provided at no cost to the CCO. 

FAMILIARIZATION 


13. Familiarization firing will be conducted under the following conditions: 

a. cadets shall only engage targets at distances of 100 metres or less; 

b. for firing, the fire control selector shall be set on ‘R’; 

c. use of automatic fire is not authorized; 

d. magazine capacity shall be restricted to five rounds; 

e. only the prone position shall be used; 

f. firing shall only be conducted as part of a zeroing, grouping or deliberate fire serial; 

g. firing shall only be conducted against marksmanship targets; 

h. engagement of figure targets is prohibited; 

i. for the C8 the stock shall be locked in either the extended or closed position; and 

j. training shall be under the direct supervision of qualified personnel. For cadet purposes direct supervision requires qualified personnel to be within three metres of the cadet. Qualified personnel are those who are authorized for the purposes of their duties to be in possession of a firearm. This includes: on duty members of the Reg F or P Res, on duty members of the Supp Res when on Attached Posting to a cadet establishment, or on duty Cadet Instructor employed in an instruction position at a CSTC, that are trained by means of a CF course on the C7. 

C79 OPTIC SIGHT 

14. The C79 optic sight is authorized for use by cadets and cadet instructors under the following conditions: 

a. when used in an open air environment; 

b. during intermittent use (such as firearms familiarization training); and 

c. under normal handling for range practices. 

15. A safety briefing to all involved personnel shall be given prior to the range practice. This briefing shall include the following points: 

a. when properly used the C79 optic sight is very safe. Gaseous tritium (radioactive hydrogen) is contained in a sealed capsule inside the very rugged C79 optic sight. This capsule helps illuminate the reticule under low light conditions. There is no detectable radiation on the outside of the optic sight; 

b. although extremely unlikely, should one of the tritium capsules break while being used under conditions listed above it may be possible that an individual may be exposed to some very limited quantity of tritium gas. In this instance the resultant radiation would only be a small percentage of the natural background radiation exposure to which a person is routinely exposed, and, is comparable to the background radiation of a two-way transatlantic jet flight; 

c. the users must not tamper with the optic sight integrity (don’t try to open the optic sight); and 

d. any problems with the optic sight, including suspicion that the illumination of the reticule by the tritium capsule is not working should be reported to the staff who will quarantine the optic sight until it is properly inspected. 

It is mandatory to fire a C& rifle in order to pass your CLI course.
CAdets also fire the .22 lee einfield, and the daisy 853c air rifle. If you are in the top 100 shooters in cadets, you can get into CL marksman, where you will fire the 5.56 C11, and in CLI marksman the 7.62 C12
During biathlon you fire a .22 rifle, which is called Anschutz model XXXX, where the XXXX represents the year model. THe newest one is 2000
Cadets is not a boy scout organization, and therefor fires, and will continiue to fire different rifles, including the one currently issued to our beloved canadian armed forces. My corp fires the C& every year with our affiliated regiment. ALthough only silver stars and above do it, it provides insentive to stay longer in the organization
Army cadets  do it most often, followed by sea, then air. the proof is in the training orders. google cxato 14-41 if you do not believe me
 :bullet: :bullet: :bullet: Horse Guards for ever  :bullet: :bullet: :bullet:
The unbending insistance on nothing but the highest standard in every detail - cadet corp motto
Nulli secundus - Second to none -Regimental motto
long live the queen


----------



## crooks.a

cplkogan said:
			
		

> It is mandatory to fire a C7 rifle in order to pass your CLI course.


That's a negative. I know a couple of people who didn't fire the C7 and passed the course just fine.


----------



## gun runner

Ok, well, cplkogan, I am afraid to tell you that, yes,crooks.a is correct. You do not HAVE to shoot the C7/C8 to pass any cadet course. Sorry. It is recommended but not mandatory. You cannot be forced to shoot a weapon to pass(medical issues,etc..) a course. Ubique


----------



## Journeyman

So much for "ending the discussion once and for all"   ;D



I've got no dog in this fight; I just enjoy watching the deflation of "absolutes."


----------



## a.schamb

Man, I wish my squadron would go out and shoot with the local Army Reserve unit...


----------



## Zoomie

We used to take our affiliated army cadet unit on exercise with us when I was in the Mo.  We gave them sticks to carry.


----------



## cplkogan

thank you crooks.a and gun runner for clarifying that. I was told otherwise, but i trust you more.


----------



## Pusser

I'm curious as to why sea and air cadets are not allowed to fire the C7 at CSTC.  The first time I ever fired an FNC1 was as a sea cadet.


----------



## crooks.a

Pusser said:
			
		

> I'm curious as to why sea and air cadets are not allowed to fire the C7 at CSTC.  The first time I ever fired an FNC1 was as a sea cadet.


It's not part of their training program. They're authorized to fire the rifles, but they have to find their own resources to do so.

They could say that sea/air cadets were authorized to fire the C7 at the CSTC, but it would still probably not happen.


----------



## my72jeep

Pusser said:
			
		

> I'm curious as to why sea and air cadets are not allowed to fire the C7 at CSTC.  The first time I ever fired an FNC1 was as a sea cadet.


It is not part of the Air/Sea summer training program that's why.


----------



## Pusser

my72jeep said:
			
		

> It is not part of the Air/Sea summer training program that's why.



I love the tired and true, "just because," response as if repeating a policy statement somehow answers a question.  I'm curious as to why firing the current service rifle is *no longer *  part of the program for sea and air cadets.  It certainly used to be.


----------



## Neill McKay

Pusser said:
			
		

> I love the tired and true, "just because," response as if repeating a policy statement somehow answers a question.  I'm curious as to why firing the current service rifle is *no longer *  part of the program for sea and air cadets.  It certainly used to be.



I can't give a definitive answer but I can offer some reasonably informed speculation.  I would suggest that it went away when the pendulum was, shall we say, swung to the left, i.e. the military aspect of the cadet programme was tending to be weakened.

Now it is tending to be strengthened again, but the army cadet programme finds itself without as useful an elemental focus as the sea and air cadet programmes.  Sea cadets sail and air cadets fly, but army cadets don't really have a corresponding thing to call their own.  Over the last several years there's been a tendency for them to grab what they can within their element, and this may be one such occurrence.

For a concrete and speculation-free example, sea and air cadets are not allowed to use the climbing wall at the CFB Gagetown base gym because the regional army cadet training staff have convinced the powers that be that it would take away from the uniqueness (my choice of word) of the army cadet programme if other elements were allowed to do it.


----------



## my72jeep

Pusser said:
			
		

> I love the tired and true, "just because," response as if repeating a policy statement somehow answers a question.  I'm curious as to why firing the current service rifle is *no longer *  part of the program for sea and air cadets.  It certainly used to be.


Sea Cadets have boats, Air Cadets have gliders/air plane's, Army cadets have C7's its that simple. Its all about how the program is delivered. The summer camp training is over worked now as it is. cutting C7 for all but the army free'd up some time.


----------



## Pusser

N. McKay said:
			
		

> For a concrete and speculation-free example, sea and air cadets are not allowed to use the climbing wall at the CFB Gagetown base gym because the regional army cadet training staff have convinced the powers that be that it would take away from the uniqueness (my choice of word) of the army cadet programme if other elements were allowed to do it.



Maybe the Army Cadet gurus in Gagetown still remember the butt-kicking this young sea cadet petty officer gave them in orienteering in 1978 and don't want to repeat the embarrassment. ;D  When I explained how I did something with a map and compass (it really wasn't that difficult) to the Army Cadet officer in charge of the event, I thought his head was going to explode!


----------



## quadrapiper

my72jeep said:
			
		

> Sea Cadets have boats, Air Cadets have gliders/air plane's, Army cadets have C7's its that simple. Its all about how the program is delivered. The summer camp training is over worked now as it is. cutting C7 for all but the army free'd up some time.


I thought the new line was "Army Cadets have tramping about in the bush?"


----------



## Snakedoc

quadrapiper said:
			
		

> I thought the new line was "Army Cadets have tramping about in the bush?"



No, Air Cadets get plenty of this too lol


----------



## Neill McKay

quadrapiper said:
			
		

> I thought the new line was "Army Cadets have tramping about in the bush?"



The official line for the last few years has been "adventure training".  The difficulty lies in distinguishing this from camping in a time when there is a perception that youth should not be running around the woods with rifles.

I really don't envy the spot that those delivering the army cadet programme are in.  The sea and air cadet programmes are connected with elements whose activities have obvious civilian applications in addition to military ones: the fundamentals of operating a ship or aircraft are the same in the military and civilian environments.  There's no corresponding piece of overarching kit for army cadets.

I'm a proponent of the army cadet programme incorporating things like engineering, transportation, and medical trades as their way to link to the army while including skills that are useful on civvie street.  (But I wear a white cap so nobody asked me!)


----------



## Pusser

A few of my friends were army cadets with a corps associated with an engineering regiment.  They spent a lot of time building bridges and the like.  I always thought that looked like fun.


----------



## Riobeard

_Now it is tending to be strengthened again, but the army cadet programme finds itself without as useful an elemental focus as the sea and air cadet programmes.  Sea cadets sail and air cadets fly, but army cadets don't really have a corresponding thing to call their own.  Over the last several years there's been a tendency for them to grab what they can within their element, and this may be one such occurrence._

Actually the Army Cadet program does have a great Elemental focus.  We have Rocky Mountain National Army Cadet Training Center plus the large bore marksmanship program and the para program to name just a few.  All of these have been in place for over 25 years or longer so I wouldn't say that we've been "grabbing what we can".  The majority of marksman in the DCRA top rankings are all former army cadets who went through the large bore program and our cadet teams do particularly well in the Schools and international competitions held at the Bisley matches in England.  

Another unique army program is the extensive exchanges and expedition programs we run, including the most recent "tramp" to the base camp of Mount Everest not to mention the outward bound course army cadets participate in with UK Cadets in Wales and Scotland.


----------



## Zoomie

I really fail to see the connection between firing the CF's service rifle (notice how I did not say the army rifle) and army cadets.

Air Cadets fly in gliders - the Air Force does not.

I would counter that firing service rifles is a tri-cadet activity and that the Army Cadets should find something else that defines them - like doing stuff the Army does on a daily basis (vice once or twice a year).  How about cleaning vehicles, folding canvas, painting rocks and sitting around waiting for orders - that is much more Army.


----------



## lethalLemon

Zoomie said:
			
		

> I really fail to see the connection between firing the CF's service rifle (notice how I did not say the army rifle) and army cadets.
> 
> Air Cadets fly in gliders - the Air Force does not.
> 
> I would counter that firing service rifles is a tri-cadet activity and that the Army Cadets should find something else that defines them - like doing stuff the Army does on a daily basis (vice once or twice a year).  How about cleaning vehicles, folding canvas, painting rocks and sitting around waiting for orders - that is much more Army.



The point is; Sea Cadets can go to sea on a vessel of any kind. Air Cadets can fly regardless of what kind of aircraft it may be. Army Cadets... we set up sections of mod tenting, 5-man arctics.... but so do Air Cadets apparently... we go on "hikes" (apparently we can't even call it patrolling anymore, or even call Adventure training... well... adventure training - it's an expedition) they're really cracking down on this whole "Political Correctness" and trying to make sure we aren't looking like child soldiers; some (maybe even most) cadet units are LUCKY if they get to fire the C7 ONCE a year. If you ask me, it friggen SUCKS! But hey, I'm on my way out; hopefully I'll be doing BMQ in the spring instead sitting on my arse doing nothing.

Us Army Cadets don't have a whole lot to call our own to take pride in, except for our berets, but that's a given  ;D


----------



## a.schamb

lethalLemon said:
			
		

> Us Army Cadets don't have a whole lot to call our own to take pride in, except for our berets, but that's a given  ;D



Haha, I'm in Air, and I have a beret. So you most of the people in my squadron


----------



## chrisf

lethalLemon said:
			
		

> some (maybe even most) cadet units are LUCKY if they get to fire the C7 ONCE a year. If you ask me, it friggen SUCKS!



Just a question, how often do you think the real army fires? For a lot of us, it's once per year...


----------



## Michael OLeary

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Just a question, how often do you think the real army fires? For a lot of us, it's once per year...



It doesn't matter, even if we let Cadets shoot the C7 every month, we'd just wind up listening to some of them whining how not firing the C9 hinders their self-identification as _"Army cadets."_  The program is what it is, as determined by current regulations and limitations on what children are permitted to do in any organization that might be labeled "para-military" by a critical outside observer, no-one forces them to join, or to stay if they don't like it.


----------



## Zoomie

Just a little FYI - as an Air Cadet - back when the Earth was still cooling - I flew in an "Army" helicopter once (maybe it was Loachman at the stick), a glider once and a Cessna once.  That occurred over a six year period.

The current Air Cadet unit that I volunteer at has the opportunity to visit the gliding center once a year - if they are lucky, they will get up and go flying.  You will find that a large majority of Sea Cadets read about boats, know what a boat looks like but will probably never really get to experience life aboard any sort of military warship.  Why should it be any different for Army Cadets?


----------



## medic65726

In my first years in Army Cadets, we used to have a couple of Range EX a year firing the FNC1. Even carried the FN around in the bush on FTX. Looks like those days are long gone.


----------



## RememberanceDay

MGalantine said:
			
		

> Did I learn the principles of marksmanship with the air rifle? Yes.
> Did I get my arse whipped into shape? Yes.
> Did I learn first aid? Yes.
> Did I learn discipline and drill? Yes.
> Did I have the time of my life? You bet.
> 
> And etcetera. Plus honestly, as one of the NCOs in charge of teaching marksmanship at my old corps and working with some other local corps... I would be terrified at giving some cadets a pointy stick, let alone an assault rifle.



Exact same here in Sea. I agree on the fact about giving some people C7's... Even more so with COD these days.


----------



## lethalLemon

Cadets have the opportunity to go on Range Ex with their affiliated unit to participate on C7 familiarization when permission is granted by ACO and Region CO and the AfU CO - only open to Silver Star in-training/qualified cadets and higher. Cadets also will receive C7 familiarization (3 days of handling classes on IAs and rifle operation and 1 day shoot) when they attend Summer Training at the CLI (Cadet Leader Instructor) level - which is now the Instructor Level (Silver Star and up).


----------



## lethalLemon

Also, I've known many a Sea Cadet unit in both large well-fundraised urban centres AND small towns have cadets sent on a week sailing on various HMC Ships and frequently. I don't know what it is, but ever Sea Cadet I talked to over my 6 years as a cadet and even to this day, do so much more than Air and Army cadets (they just never learn how to live in anything less than a 4 star hotel with catered steak dinners... Oh the joys of being Army   )


----------



## RememberanceDay

lethalLemon said:
			
		

> Also, I've known many a Sea Cadet unit in both large well-fundraised urban centres AND small towns have cadets sent on a week sailing on various HMC Ships and frequently. I don't know what it is, but ever Sea Cadet I talked to over my 6 years as a cadet and even to this day, do so much more than Air and Army cadets (they just never learn how to live in anything less than a 4 star hotel with catered steak dinners... Oh the joys of being Army   )



Much agreed. Being a Sea-er myself, I have friends in the other two elements. When we compare what the different corps/squads/platoons(or whatever they are) do, it always comes to the findings that we (Sea) do so much more.

But I still wouldn't mind shooting a C7...


----------



## a.schamb

RemembranceDay said:
			
		

> Much agreed. Being a Sea-er myself, I have friends in the other two elements. When we compare what the different *corps/squads/platoons(or whatever they are)* do, it always comes to the findings that we (Sea) do so much more.
> 
> But I still wouldn't mind shooting a C7...



Corps for Sea and Army, Squadrons for Air


----------



## formercadet1029

lethalLemon said:
			
		

> Cadets have the opportunity to go on Range Ex with their affiliated unit to participate on C7 familiarization when permission is granted by ACO and Region CO and the AfU CO - only open to Silver Star in-training/qualified cadets and higher.


This is true. However, here in southwestern Ontario it's quite difficult for some cadets in this area to get on these. This is because many of those Range Ex weekends that the various reserve units around here partake in, take place up near Barrie. This is technically out of our region so the area cadet office is reluctant to make it happen. Lots of hoops to jump through to get one of our senior cadets on something like this, which in my opinion should be no problem. If a cadet puts the time in and is willing to make it all the way to being silver star qualified, their should be incentives like this available to them. In my opinion there are already enough problems involved in keeping senior cadets interested enough to stay and run the gauntlet of the cadet program. Keeping things like this out of their reach only adds fuel to that little itch that they may get to quit. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## lethalLemon

a.schamb said:
			
		

> Corps for Sea and Army, Squadrons for Air



Corps is for the entirety of the Royal Canadian Army Cadets, which are broken down into units that (depending on size) will consist of more than one company (Infantry affiliated units for example) which then are broken into platoons and then sections at the smallest. Units with affiliation to armoured regiments, engineers, or Signals/Comm Res will consist of Squadrons, Troops and sections.


----------



## Neill McKay

Each army cadet unit is a corps although, as you note, certain ones use affiliation-specific terms.  But it's correct to say that (with made-up numbers for illustration) there are 800 cadet units in Canada of which 400 are air cadet squadrons, 250 are army cadet corps, and 150 are sea cadet corps.


----------

