# Thinking about joining the Air Force



## matt220 (9 Feb 2012)

Hey everyone, for the past year or so I've really been thinking hard about joining the Air-Force and I would appreciate some input. I figured it would be good to ask here 8)

Background:
I'm 19 and in my first year of University at U of T studying computer science, this first year has been a real eye opener for me in rethinking what I would like to do with my life. I've realized University is not for me, I hate it here and would rather be doing practical hands on work instead of being stuck behind a desk. 

So I've been running through my options and the best I have come up with is either trying to get an apprenticeship in the trades, joining the air force, or some other less desirable options. If I were to drop out of University and join the air force, my most desired position would be to work towards becoming a pilot, although that's probably a long shot. Jobs as a technician would be my second choice, which is probably more realistic than a pilot (since apparently you have to be pretty damn lucky to become a pilot). 

One thing I want to know is how flexible full time military work really is. Will I have to relocate permanently to a remote air force base somewhere in Canada (I live in Toronto now)? Or does it work something like a couple months on at a base, and one month off? The reason I'm asking this is because I would also like to use some of my free time running a small mainly-online business and I am not sure if I would be able to do so at a remote air force base. I want to know if I'll have the ability to pursue other aspirations in life if I join. 

Another question I have is for the pilots here (if there are any that read this) since becoming a pilot would be my most desired choice, how to I get on the right track to becoming a pilot in the Canadian Air Force? I do not have a pilots licence, and do not intend on getting a bachelors degree if I join the air force. What I do have is the skills and abilities needed of a prospected pilot (from what I've found out so far), I just need to learn how (which obviously the military does train possible pilots). 

Thank you for reading!


----------



## aesop081 (9 Feb 2012)

matt220 said:
			
		

> my most desired position would be to work towards becoming a pilot,



In which case, you will still have to do university. Don't want to do university = don't ask to be a pilot.




> Will I have to relocate permanently to a remote air force base somewhere in Canada (I live in Toronto now)?



Yes and every few years, you will be told to reloacte to another one.



> Or does it work something like a couple months on at a base, and one month off?



No.



> I want to know if I'll have the ability to pursue other aspirations in life if I join.



We're not a prison.........



> I do not have a pilots licence,



We're not asking for one.



> and do not intend on getting a bachelors degree



You will not be a pilot.



> What I do have is the skills and abilities needed of a prospected pilot



You will not be a pilot. Pilots are officers and being an officer requires a degree. You can either finish school as a civvie or do university while in the military. Either way, you have to do a university degree.


----------



## RangerRay (9 Feb 2012)

You may want to join the Air Reserve.  However, the closest air reserve flight is over 2 hours away in Trenton.

If you are in the Reg Force, you will go where they tell you to go.  And you won't get shifts like working on the oil rigs (two months on, one month off).  Most likely, you will be at each posting for several years.


----------



## SentryMAn (9 Feb 2012)

From what you've posted.
You best bet is to apply to be a Technician(AVS/AVN).  Officers require Degrees for DEO, Pilots are Officers.

CdnAviator:
Always <3 your posts!


----------



## aesop081 (9 Feb 2012)

SentryMAn said:
			
		

> You best bet is to apply to be a Technician(AVS/AVN).



.......ACS, AWS............


----------



## kratz (9 Feb 2012)

RangerRay said:
			
		

> You may want to join the Air Reserve.  However, the closest air reserve flight is over 2 hours away in Trenton.



400 Squadron is in Borden, an hour from the GTA, slightly closer than Trenton.


----------



## SentryMAn (9 Feb 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> .......ACS, AWS............



did they change the terms?  They were always known as AVS tech and AVN tech
Aviation systems Tech
Avionics systems Tech


----------



## aesop081 (9 Feb 2012)

SentryMAn said:
			
		

> did they change the terms?  They were always known as AVS tech and AVN tech
> Aviation systems Tech
> Avionics systems Tech



Yeah, i know.

But there is also Aircraft structures tech and Air weapons systems tech.......

There's more than just AVN and AVS as far as aircraft techs are concerned.

But thanks for the RCAF lesson though...i thought i had it covered until now.


----------



## Melbatoast (9 Feb 2012)

matt220 said:
			
		

> Another question I have is for the pilots here (if there are any that read this) since becoming a pilot would be my most desired choice, how to I get on the right track to becoming a pilot in the Canadian Air Force?



It's been said already but as this is the main point of your post: finish university.  There is to entry plan available to you that does not require a degree.


----------



## Good2Golf (9 Feb 2012)

If you not enjoying studying (the process of learning the fundamentals of a particular field), then you will not want to be a pilot in the RCAF.  The studying I did during flight training was far more demanding and fast-paced then anything I did during my BSc studies (which, BTW was a combined major in Computer Science and Physics, so I'm pretty sure I have a good idea what you're going through academically at the moment).

As others have noted, life in the CF/RCAF is a full-time career so you shouldn't be thinking about how to ensure that you have enough time off to run a business on the side.  Some folks do that years (or decades) into their career, but you're pretty far away from that at this point.  Unlike the Army where service within the Primary Reserves (Militia, etc...) can commence pretty much from totally untrained/skill-less, the RCAF Primary Reserve is based primarily on the component transfer of previously serving RCAF operators or maintainers already trained in a particular skill set.

There is a lot of discussion regarding how to prepare for future service as a pilot in this and the Air Force general sub-forum, so a bit of looking around will help you get a better feel for things.


Regards
G2G


----------



## SentryMAn (9 Feb 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Yeah, i know.
> 
> But there is also Aircraft structures tech and Air weapons systems tech.......
> 
> ...



I misread what you originally posted, I read it as you correcting what I put.
I was really asking the question honestly, hard to infer connotation across the internet. 

I apologize if it was taken the wrong way as it wasn't my intention to seem condescending towards your post.


----------



## Loachman (9 Feb 2012)

matt220 said:
			
		

> If I were to drop out of University and join the air force, my most desired position would be to work towards becoming a pilot, although that's probably a long shot.



It used to be that one out of every eight hundred applicants made it through to Wings Grad. I have no idea if that number is the same now, but it probably has not changed significantly.

Yes, that's a long shot, but dropping out of university makes it longer by an order of infinity times a bazillion.



			
				matt220 said:
			
		

> apparently you have to be pretty damn lucky to become a pilot



Luck can help, or not. Having a university degree is far more valuable. Applying helps. Natural skills are useful. Drive, motivation, determination, persistence, and the ability to work harder than you thought possible are the most important.



			
				matt220 said:
			
		

> One thing I want to know is how flexible full time military work really is.



Very flexible. It changes all of the time, often with little or no notice.

You need to be even more flexible.



			
				matt220 said:
			
		

> Will I have to relocate permanently to a remote air force base somewhere in Canada (I live in Toronto now)?



Yes. You will have to move out of Toronto into the remote areas that constitute the Rest of Canada.

Some bases (and not necessarily air, as some Tac Hel Squadrons are on Army bases) are close to other cities. Yes, there are some other cities out there. Really.



			
				matt220 said:
			
		

> The reason I'm asking this is because I would also like to use some of my free time



Don't count on having a lot of that, especially in your first few years. Expect to be away from home ("Home" is where your kit is) a lot.



			
				matt220 said:
			
		

> how to I get on the right track to becoming a pilot in the Canadian Air Force?



Finish university.

Apply.

Work bloody hard.



			
				matt220 said:
			
		

> What I do have is the skills and abilities needed of a prospected pilot



Maybe. Maybe not.


----------



## AGD (9 Feb 2012)

matt220 said:
			
		

> I'm 19 and in my first year of University at U of T studying computer science, this first year has been a real eye opener for me in rethinking what I would like to do with my life. I've realized University is not for me, I hate it here



Yep, I've been there! I tell people all the time that my worst day working still trumps my best day at school. But it was all worth it in the end when I got my degree. You miss out on a lot of opportunities without that expensive piece of paper.

Maybe it's computer science that isn't for you, not university in general. Consider switching your major or taking on a lighter course load. 



> and would rather be doing practical hands on work instead of being stuck behind a desk.



You might want to rethink pilot then...judging by what I have read on this forum, one can spend quite a lot of time piloting a desk in the Canadian Forces.


----------



## dimsum (9 Feb 2012)

As a born-and-raised Torontonian, it took the Navy (then the RCAF) to show me that there are nicer cities than Toronto in Canada (Victoria, Montreal, Quebec City and Vancouver come to mind.)  Now, besides seeing family and friends, I have no desire to go back to TO.  

If staying in TO or a city of comparable size is your goal, then the military isn't for you.


----------



## aesop081 (9 Feb 2012)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> then the military isn't for you.



You have expended your quota of allowed responses. You get more once posted back to Canada........bastard.


----------



## Loachman (9 Feb 2012)

AGD said:
			
		

> one can spend quite a lot of time piloting a desk in the Canadian Forces.



Yes.

Dammit.

Dammit.

Dammit.

Dammit.

Dammit.

Dammit.

Dammit.

Dammit.


----------



## aesop081 (9 Feb 2012)

Loachman said:
			
		

> Dammit.



Indeed.


----------



## Melbatoast (9 Feb 2012)

Here's how to become a pilot after dropping out of university:

1. Enroll as an NCM.  
2. Work very, very hard in a relatively unsatisfying, extreme job environment.  
3. Be the best in your trade year after year, and put on a happy face 24/7 (this is called internalizing your extrinsic motivation, I learned that in university...).  
4. Repeatedly apply via an in-service commissioning plan, for one of the 3 to 5 open pilot slots.  
5. Get turned down multiple times, for reasons that will not be explained to you.  
6. Finally get accepted after 9 years of service as an NCM.
7. *Be sent to a university to finish the degree you should have completed the first time.*
8. Pilot training.

I think you get the picture.  :2c:


----------



## aesop081 (9 Feb 2012)

Melbatoast said:
			
		

> Here's how to become a pilot after dropping out of university:
> 
> 1. Enroll as an NCM.
> 2. Work very, very hard in a relatively unsatisfying, extreme job environment.
> ...



9. Fail pilot training. Become ACSO.


----------



## Melbatoast (9 Feb 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> 9. Fail pilot training. Become ACSO.



Unless one has, theoretically, already failed the ACSO test...


----------



## matt220 (9 Feb 2012)

Thanks everyone for your help!

It seems I have much more thinking to do, I got the impression from this video (http://www.forces.ca/en/job/pilot-32 @2:50 it is mentioned) that you did not have to be a university grad to become a pilot. You can see why it was a bit misleading, but thank you to those who cleared everything up.  

Also:


			
				Melbatoast said:
			
		

> Here's how to become a pilot after dropping out of university:
> 
> 5. Get turned down multiple times, for reasons that will not be explained to you.
> 6. Finally get accepted after 9 years of service as an NCM.
> ...





			
				CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> 9. Fail pilot training. Become ACSO.









 :rofl:

EDIT:


			
				AGD said:
			
		

> *Yep, I've been there! I tell people all the time that my worst day working still trumps my best day at school.* But it was all worth it in the end when I got my degree. You miss out on a lot of opportunities without that expensive piece of paper.



Sounds exactly like me! I know I'll miss out on opportunities, but despite what many think, university is not the only option after high school. Keep in mind I haven't dropped out yet, but I probably will if I figure something out, or land an apprenticeship in a trade I like.


----------



## aesop081 (9 Feb 2012)

matt220 said:
			
		

> :rofl:



You think it is funny, find a large group of ACSOs and ask how many started out as pilot trainees.


----------



## matt220 (9 Feb 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> You think it is funny, find a large group of ACSOs and ask how many started out as pilot trainees.



I was actually just laughing at the image I embedded of how I would expect one to react going through all that to become a pilot and fail. Do you not have embedded images activated?


----------



## Melbatoast (9 Feb 2012)

matt220 said:
			
		

> Thanks everyone for your help!
> 
> It seems I have much more thinking to do, I got the impression from this video (http://www.forces.ca/en/job/pilot-32 @2:50 it is mentioned) that you did not have to be a university grad to become a pilot. You can see why it was a bit misleading, but thank you to those who cleared everything up.



I haven't seen the video, but there used to be a program called OCTP that would allow high school grads to become officers, and there was no obligation to get a degree.  That's long over and was replaced by CEOTP, which didn't require a degree on entry, but you have to promise to get one by the end of your engagement.  The CF _HATES_ CEOTP, because it's very hard to complete a degree while serving, and it has always been a rare option for off-the-street folks.  The CF desperately wants a fully degreed officer corps, so really places an emphasis on the degree-granting programs (ROTP/UTPNCM/SCP - you'll have to explore the acronyms on your own).

If you want to be a pilot, 3 more years of very mild inconvenience for the shot is hardly a problem.  I can tell you that after 9 years of Reg Force service, the past year at a civilian university has been a goddamn dream.

edit - as well, university gets more interesting the further in you get.  I've always found first and second year courses mind-numbing.  In upper level classes you really get the freedom to explore and contribute.  I had to switch majors so have to take a number of 1- and 200 level courses that are pretty brutal.  The 3- and 400 levels that I'm able to take, I love.


----------



## alocin (10 Feb 2012)

Melbatoast said:
			
		

> edit - as well, university gets more interesting the further in you get.  I've always found first and second year courses mind-numbing.  In upper level classes you really get the freedom to explore and contribute.



This is so true. The first year, possibly two, are DESIGNED to weed out people who can't cut the cheese. A widely stated stat is that approximately 50% of people who start their first year of university drop out.  I had a first year science course with 340 students in it.... how can that be engaging? By the time you get to the later years, classes are small seminars and you're generally enrolled in courses that you're genuinely interested in and often they have a handful of students sitting around a table with a professor, in a dialogue format. _It gets better._

Good luck, whatever you choose to do


----------



## 2010newbie (10 Feb 2012)

matt220 said:
			
		

> Thanks everyone for your help!
> 
> It seems I have much more thinking to do, I got the impression from this video (http://www.forces.ca/en/job/pilot-32 @2:50 it is mentioned) that you did not have to be a university grad to become a pilot.



To become a Pilot you have to have the degree, but you do not need one to apply. If you think you want to be a Pilot then apply........

I went to the recruiting centre in Toronto when I was a few courses in towards a degree. There was a CF Pilot working there that told me to finish the degree and come back to apply as DEO about 4-6 months before finishing the degree. A few years went by and when I was about 6 months from finishing I went back to the recruiting centre. It turned out that there were no DEO applications being accepted and even if they were, my degree wasn't being accepted anymore.

In the end I applied as ROTP and I was accepted. In hindsight, I should have just applied ROTP to begin with. The point is that things change. Apply now. If you're not successful then continue working on things that will improve your application (and in turn improve your other career options) and continue to apply while pursuing other avenues.


----------



## Loachman (10 Feb 2012)

Melbatoast said:
			
		

> The CF desperately wants a fully degreed officer corps



It will take the CF until at least early-2016 to achieve that.


----------



## Strike (10 Feb 2012)

Loachman said:
			
		

> It will take the CF until at least early-2016 to achieve that.



That's when you're out, eh?


----------



## Loachman (10 Feb 2012)

I'm still hoping for another CRA extension. I could do this forever.


----------



## AGD (10 Feb 2012)

2010newbie said:
			
		

> It turned out that there were no DEO applications being accepted and even if they were, my degree wasn't being accepted anymore.



Out of curiousity, which degree did you have?


----------



## SentryMAn (10 Feb 2012)

I would prefer to have an educated Canadian Forces Officer Corps much more then a degree wielding corps.  Sometimes the two are not related  LOL


----------



## Pusser (10 Feb 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> You think it is funny, find a large group of ACSOs and ask how many started out as pilot trainees.



When I first entered CFSAL, the Colonel Commandant of the Logistics Branch came to see my class.  He asked each of us to stand up and tell him about ourselves.  Out of 40 candidates, about half had started in pilot training.  To a man (and occasional woman) each former pilot trainee stood up and said, "I used to be a pilot.  Then I saw the light and became a Logistics Officer..."

When it became my turn, I said, "I used to be a MARS Officer*.  I didn't see that @#$! light and after the eye test, they made me a Logistics Officer."  The Colonel Commandant (RAdm Tucker (Ret'd)) broke out in a huge grin and said, "That's exactly what happened to me!"


----------



## Loachman (10 Feb 2012)

Not for nothing was Portage known as "Nav Selection Centre".


----------



## 2010newbie (25 Apr 2012)

AGD said:
			
		

> Out of curiousity, which degree did you have?



Sorry, missed this last time....

Associates degree in Professional Aeronautics from ERAU.


----------

