# Civvies in the dark.



## Genetk44 (20 Sep 2004)

Hello,
I've been following various threads here for a number of weeks and it struck me today that the average civilian is not being kept aware of whats going on in our military by the news services. I'm a very well read civilian, I read 2 newspapers a day, watch local CTV and CBC news as well as the BBC and yet I only found out about the "loss" of our tanks here in this forum. Haven't seen a peep about it otherwise. Then it hit me like a thunderbolt....compared to the US,UK,France and many other countries we civilians here in Canada hear or see almost nothing about our military,its' people,equipment,etc. in the media...or anywhere else.
  When our forces go to Af,Croatia etc theres a teeny mention on the news but thats it!  I wonder what the people would think if they found out their Army didn't have any tanks? as an example. Seems to me that the Canadian people are being kept blind as to whats going on in the CF....maybe you guys need to start yelling and blowing your own horns a hell of a lot harder!!!!!!!!.... and by "you guys" I mean you who have to actually fight and die as opposed to the brass-hat desk jockeys in Ottawa.
Just my tax-paying civvie mouth ranting :rage:


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## chrisf (20 Sep 2004)

Not for a lack of media promotion on behalf of the forces, I can assure you of that.


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## Inch (20 Sep 2004)

The average Canadian is more interested in exercising their rights than defending them.   This isn't a knock on the non-military types, you're all members of this great site so you obviously have more interest in the military than average Joe and Jill Civvie. The military isn't for everyone and no one expects everyone to join up, but having your support is a big plus, it's just too bad the rest of Canada doesn't feel the same way.

Cheers


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## Genetk44 (20 Sep 2004)

Inch...thats my point.....not enough support from the public...but why?....cuz they just don't know(among other reasons)...and why don't they know?....I think it's because 1)the media isn't reporting as well or as much as it should on the subject and 2) because the military isn't promoteing itself as much as it could.
Gene


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## chrisf (20 Sep 2004)

Believe me, the military is promoting itself... excessively... the media just isn't paying attention, because the Canadian public doesn't want to pay attention.


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## meni0n (20 Sep 2004)

And to quote Rudyard Kipling:

" Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
            Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' â Å“Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?â ?
            But it's â Å“Thin red line of 'eroesâ ? when the drums begin to roll,â â€
            The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
            O it's â Å“Thin red line of 'eroesâ ? when the drums begin to roll. "


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## Inch (20 Sep 2004)

I'm gonna tell you a little story that didn't show up in the papers or the media and if it did it was a short paragraph that was hidden away at the back of the paper.

There was a young teenager here in Halifax that had cancer, his one wish was to go for a Sea King ride. Our Sqn caught wind of this and started the ball rolling, it took almost a year due to the uncommanded loss of torque problems we had with the SKs last year and a few other things, but he finally got his ride about a month ago. The CO made him and his father honourary 423 Sqn members. He passed away on the weekend, the CO is going to the funeral as the Sqn rep and most of us that aren't doing any work that day will probably go too.

This story should have been on the front page of every news paper, it's totally at the opposite end of the scale from what the media forced down the public's throat with the Somalia incident.   

This isn't a rare occurrence of us fighting the good fight.   A lady came up to me in Sobey's the other day, I was in my flight suit and just stopped to get a few things on my way home.   She then proceeded to tell me how she's been writing to the troops overseas for the last few years and was writing to one of the Sea King crews in particular last year. Well family day came and she was invited out for a Sea King ride. She said she absolutely loved it, it was the least we could do for a great lady that took the time to care about people she didn't even know that were on the other side of the world.

If the media would give this stuff half the attention that all the bad stuff gets, I think you'd start to see a change in the way people feel about the military and maybe a little more support would be forthcoming.

Just my $0.02

Cheers


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## Nat. Cap. Girl (20 Sep 2004)

Inch said:
			
		

> If the media would give this stuff half the attention that all the bad stuff gets...



Unfortunately, that's not how the media seems to work.  Too much bad, and not enough good.  I don't think that's going to change very quickly and/or any time soon.

Edit:
I just discovered Truth, Duty, Valour on OLN, and I thought it was pretty cool, and sheds a positive light on the military.  I'm just a civy, so I wanted to know your (you military folk) opinions of it?


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## sgt_mandal (20 Sep 2004)

Pardon me for sticking my head in but Cadets are just as represented in the media as the CF (not trying to make a connection), that is to say, not very.


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## Infanteer (20 Sep 2004)

Well, I think the Cadets have very little contribution to make to national security and foreign policy, so we can forgive the media for not putting them on the 6:00pm highlight reel.


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## Bert (20 Sep 2004)

I think more media exposure of the military, what the military does, and what the members do could be
alot better represented.   At some level, someone has to identify it and get govenment and the media
together and focus on it.

CBC, CTV, Global, and APTN all have limited budgets and can focus only on certain aspects of
the broadcast media.   Sending media crews on OPs, ships, and remote sites costs money and
time.   Stories need a focus.    The networks and television program producers in Canada know too 
well about Federal budget cuts. 

The media units of the military produce a number of segments like Christmas greetings,
interviews, and assists programs like TDV.   But not much else.

If the Feds got together with producers, the networks, and television fund organizations, more
media exposure of the military could happen.


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## Ex-Dragoon (20 Sep 2004)

> He passed away on the weekend, the CO is going to the funeral as the Sqn rep and most of us that aren't doing any work that day will probably go too.



Ah crap!


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## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Sep 2004)

_
Quote from Infanteer,
Well, I think the Cadets have very little contribution to make to national security and foreign policy, so we can forgive the media for not putting them on the 6:00pm highlight reel._

I don't think thats the point here, Infanteer. Here we have groups of kids who want to do good and want to emulate the CF and they also recieve zero in the way of media coverage.  Now if this same group of kids decided they wished to convert to Hara Krisna or meet once a week to openly devil worship complete with "satan" uniforms, this would be news,budget be damned.


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## Ex-Dragoon (20 Sep 2004)

But in the context of Gene's original post, cadets while a valuable youth organization does very little for the CF except provide some interest. If a cadet organization recieves media attention it does very little to benefit the CF as its such a different entity.


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## Infanteer (20 Sep 2004)

I think the issue is that Canadians have little idea of the role the military plays in the national security of Canada and the furthering of our interests; the media plays a big role in this on how they choose to represent the military to the Canadian public.

End result, we get the "peacekeeper myth" and its cousin the "citizen soldier" myth that leads to horrible misconceptions on what we do; Politicians all to eager to play to the misconceptions of the public leads to policies such as eliminating tanks and avoiding attack choppers because they "are too aggressive".

How the cadets factor into this equation, I am unsure.   If an debate is needed about Cadet exposure in Canadian society, or youth groups exposure in general, then perhaps a relevent thread can be opened up in the Cadet forum.


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## Scratch_043 (20 Sep 2004)

Bert said:
			
		

> I think more media exposure of the military, what the military does, and what the members do could be
> alot better represented.  At some level, someone has to identify it and get govenment and the media
> together and focus on it.
> 
> ...



but then there is the problem that the Liberal Federal Government is not willing to provide the funds necessarily to enhance the reputation of the military, because then they would have to provide the funding to better equip the military because it is the will of the people of Canada.


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## karl28 (20 Sep 2004)

Not all civi   are in the dark . There are those who care about the military . I am a civi myself but   I come from a military family and all my best friends are in the military and   i consider myself as a big supporter of the CF .                     I wish the CF would get better coverage on the 6 O'clock news but as stated by other members in this post the media only cares about the bad stories .       What I think the military should do is be more active in the schools get the kids interested in what they do . IT may be a small step but being more in the public eye could only help the military .


Cheers 
Karl


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## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Sep 2004)

_QUOTE,
but then there is the problem that the Liberal Federal Government is not willing to provide the funds necessarily to enhance the reputation of the military, because then they would have to provide the funding to better equip the military because it is the will of the people of Canada
_
Very true, the Govt. is NOT going to go out of their way to promote something that they have spent many years dismantling.

That money can be better used greasing liberal-friendly ad agencies, etc. :rage:


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## Scratch_043 (20 Sep 2004)

ugh, don't get me started...


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## George Wallace (20 Sep 2004)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Very true, the Govt. is NOT going to go out of their way to promote something that they have spent many years dismantling.
> 
> That money can be better used greasing liberal-friendly ad agencies, etc. :rage:



Oh!   Thank God you never said "Health Care"!

There are the small bits of good press appearing here and there, most of it is local news and home grown broadcasting, but like everyone has already pointed out, not much Nationally.   

Do our PAFFOs get any credit for the giant steps they have made?   No.   They still have a long way to go, and are still fairly well ignored by Mainstream News organizations.   

We have a long way to go to inform a 'disinterested' public.

GW


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## Sh0rtbUs (20 Sep 2004)

One of the lessons Mr. Dallaire learned from his father as a youth, is in order to be a soldier, you cant expect a thank you from anyone, because you arent going to get it. Gaining recognition from the media would be great, but not so we can all be glorified and get some attention. Its so maybe people will at least acknowledge that we're here, and lead to some pressure on the higher powers to spiff us up a bit.

Just my .02


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## Sheerin (20 Sep 2004)

The Canadian public, by and large, is completely ignorant when it comes to our armed forces and from what I've seen very little actually care.  While in school (albeit, Trent is known as one of the more leftist schools) all I seem to hear about the military is that they're nothing but a bunch of sociopaths who want to go into villages and kill everyone because they may be commie bastards.  I've, on several occasions, tried to educate my friends about the forces but they don't seem to care.  Although most are surprised when I tell them about the domestic missions they perform.  But the general responce is (why do they need weapons if thats what they do?).  Most believe that Canada would be better off if we diverted the money we spend on the military to other programmes, like financial aid for 3 º world nations etc.  

As for news aagencies they just don't seem to care either.  Local news in Toronto has more to do with US military actions than Canadian.  Maybe if we got into a shooting war the news networks would care?  But then again the public sentiment would probably be "Bring our troops home, we don't want them to kill other people".  

Inch - That was a nice story, its too bad no one in the media seemed to pick it up.


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## Scratch_043 (20 Sep 2004)

here here


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## sgt_mandal (20 Sep 2004)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> If an debate is needed about Cadet exposure in Canadian society, or youth groups exposure in general, then perhaps a relevent thread can be opened up in the Cadet forum.



My appologies, I read the initial post and thought "This is happening with cadets too" so I posted here rather than wasting bandwith oppening one in the cadet forum.


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## bigwig (20 Sep 2004)

I think there are way to many civvies left in the dark about our Military. The best example of this comes from a conversation with my aunt I had the other day. We were talking about me and how Im starting my BMQ for 031 Infantry in a few weeks, and she wasn't to sure of what our army did. I told her that the army does lots of things, one of which is deployment. I told her that we have troops in afghanastan, bosnia, haiti etc... She didn't even believe me that we had troops in bosnia and haiti... she thought we only had a small ammount in afghanastan.

Another thing she asked me which left me asking myself if she was being serious or not was, and I Quote "You dont get to shoot guns or anything like that at basic training do you?" and I thought she was joking, but she was serious!

Then I told her after Im done BMQ/SQ/BIQ that I continue training with my regiment on various things, and she asked me "what do you mean training?" and I was tired of beating around the bush so I came right out and said we train on how to kill, and she flipped out saying that I wasnt a murderer or a killer etc..... 

I look back on this conversation and its hard to piece together how someone can be so out of touch with the military....

I agree we need to definatly get some more POSITIVE media coverage on our military so the civilian population can understand exactly what we are all about so we won't have people left in the dark as to what we do. 

P.S. I think truth, duty, valour is a great way of enforcing this....

anyways thats my 2 cents
Cheers


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## Genetk44 (20 Sep 2004)

Sheerin said:
			
		

> The Canadian public, by and large, is completely ignorant when it comes to our armed forces and from what i've seen very little actually care.



That's my point......it's hard to care about something if you are ignorant about it.


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## Sig_Des (20 Sep 2004)

A lot of people don't realize the place the military holds in society. Sure every once in a while people notice and say thanks, but people have huge misconceptions about who we are and what we do.

A couple of weeks ago I was in uniform waiting for a bus to my unit, and this little girl asks her mother (In French, and i guess they didn't expect me to speak it) why is that guy dressed like that. And the mother says " That's a soldier. He's learning a trade, getting to see things, and if there's a war, he'll go fight for the country". Actually one of the happiest moments of my career. But there's the other side of the coin, when some kids who are sitting around doing nothing, and say things when they don't know anything about it.

People ask you why you joined up, and how can you do it. Be trained to kill, trained to fight. We do thing most people wouldn't even consider doing, and they can't fathom it. I think a big part of this is that our position in Canadian society is misunderstood, because the general public just doesn't get to see much. 

People see the airborne incident, the video clips of sea kings crash landing, that kind of thing. You'll find that most people in military communities do have a better understanding, and more of a respect for the forces, but you usually don't get that in more metropolitan areas.


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## Sh0rtbUs (20 Sep 2004)

Its all about the PR. i was doing some side recruitment "work" with a Sgt. not long ago (just greeting possible recruits and sharing my experiences with them). Had a young boy somewhere around the ages of 10 walk by, do a double take and say "whoa, you guys look cool". We struck up small chat with the eager guy, and i let him try on my beret for his mom. He left that experience with a positive view of the military and its personnel. little things like this are what will slowly help develop a more positive reputation for the Army, rather than simply blowing off the civis. 

Maybe someday when someone says negatively about the CF, that young boy will recall that day and throw in his 2 cents on the issue.


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## pbi (20 Sep 2004)

And I think we're all bunch of whiners. >


OK-I don't really think that, but let me offer a different perspective. I will bore the audience by yet again referring to the   past, when I first put on a uniform in 1974. In those days, the attitude of the general public ranged from apathy to outright hostility. Wearing a uniform on public transit, on the street, etc. was a guarantee that as a minimum you would be yelled at by passing hippy idiots or other scum, and more often than not you could get into a confrontation. The Left was in full control in our education system, especially universities.(They are certainly still there, but IMHO our campuses are in general far more middle of the road than they were then)

Sorry, but I just do not see that attitude ANYWHERE today. I have had ordinary citizens (including on some occasions Aboriginals, who you might assum as a group might not be our biggest fan club) come up to me on the street   or in a restaurant when they see me in uniform and thank me for what Canadian soldiers are doing. I live in a civilian neighborhood of normal, working middle class people and the attitude is very good.People are almost in awe of what we do.   I have spoken in universities, in high schools, in public schools and at business associations and I honestly cannot recall even receiving a negative comment. Quite the opposite. In fact, some of the public school Remembrance Day ceremonies I have attended have touched me very deeply by the obvious seriousness and dedication of the kids to the event.

As for the media, they were not put on earth to be nice to us. And, if we are really honest we will admit that the media in this country has played a real, if somewhat blunt and painful, role in exposing and cleaning up an institution that IMHO had sunk into many very bad habits because it was virtually free of public scrutiny. That institution, the CF in general and our Army in particular, needed a catharsis. We got it: just too bad it was largely induced by outsiders. As for the media coverage we get today, I suggest that folks take a bit broader look at what is actually being published. If you are in the military, contact your PAO shop and get their press clipping and media summary file: this will let you see what's being said all across the country, in print and on the waves.IMHO we miht not get as much as we want, but what we get is generally good. And, again IMHO, it has improved immeasureably over the last decade. If civilians are not well informed, it is because they choose not to be: any of them could go to the DND website, to this website, or ask to visit one of their local units. They can ask for guest speakers (I always encourage all my folks, regardless of rank, to get out and talk to the public..) or whatever. I submit to you that while Canadians are not generally well informed about the military, it is not out of hatred, or any govt conspiracy, or the failure of our PAOs. It is simply because they can't be bothered.   

Look-it's all relative. I've sat in a classroom with US officers and listened to them whine about how they have no public support and that the US people don't understand them. I almost puked, coming from a Canadian background: they have no idea.   IMHO they only thing we can do is what we do now: write, speak, do community footprint stuff, talk to your neighbours, wear your uniform in public, treat the media as decently as you can. And, most important   all, act like a professional. Cheers.


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## Devlin (21 Sep 2004)

Wow what a great thread you guys have going here. I'm a PAO (PAFFO) for my unit and I can certainly see a change of attitudes "out there" amongst the civilian population. This is not only because of the promotional work of other PAO's throughout the forces but through the image that you all present when your waiting for a bus, running into the grocery store, etc ...

The bad news pieces will always lead the evening news or make the front page of the paper. This is an unfortunate reality of the world we live in. The old saying "if it bleeds it leads" still rings ture at a lot of media outlets. The average Canadians' perspective of the CF and anyone who wears the green pajamas is that they are an infanteer who digs ditches and fires a rifle. We have to continue to educate and provide understanding amongst people, in order to change an attitude or dispell a myth. The average Joe out on the street can't "see past the green (or the CADPAT as the case may be)". 

I can share stories of a full colonel standing downtown Ottawa in his dress uniform and being stopped and asked about the local bus schedule; you guessed it the guy on the street thought he was a city bus driver. Kinda sad...I've been asked how I like my new "cammies" and what "Boot Camp" is like. Seems that most Canadians are very 'americanized' when it comes to their understanding of things military.


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## pbi (21 Sep 2004)

> The average Canadians' perspective of the CF and anyone who wears the green pajamas is that they are an infanteer who digs ditches and fires a rifle.



And there's something wrong with that......?  Cheers.


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## Sig_Des (21 Sep 2004)

> Seems that most Canadians are very 'americanized' when it comes to their understanding of things military.



That's because the publics understanding of the military comes from Hoolywood. The likes of Full Metal Jacket & Platoon, those kinds of films.

In fact, I can think of only one production on the Canadian military, and that was a CBC film about a Canadian Platoon in Bosnia, I think it was called "Peacekeepers". Actually not too bad.

All in all, I'm sure there's a good public view of soldiers themselves, but it's a public view of the actual institution that may not be so good. That's what needs to be worked on


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## Bograt (21 Sep 2004)

The civy ignorance is due to the fact that the new media are for lack of a better term "Stunned as me arse" Just yesterday, a Cormorant crew from Gander and a Herc crew from Greenwood rescued 4 people who were on a capsized shrimp trawler. In near zero visability, and tropical storm winds the Cormorant lowered a SARTEC guy in 8-10 meter seas on to a 6 man inflatable dingy and rescued a man who didn't have an exposure suit. On the extraction the hoist overheated, and the pilots landed on a cliff percifice and 2 SARTEC repelled down a cliff and rescued two more guys. The Fourth was able to make to shore on his own. The fifth person the Sartec guys secured the body and retrieved it later today. The sixth is still missing.

The CBC referred to the aircraft as a Coast Guard helicopter. They then showed a file picture of a Labrador. They continued with wondering if the hoist problem was responsible for the loss of two fisherman. 

CBC Bastards.


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## jfladeroute (21 Sep 2004)

Bograt said:
			
		

> The civy ignorance is due to the fact that the new media are for lack of a better term "Stunned as me arse"... CBC Bastards.



But not all media come from the same mould - http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/CalgarySun/News/2004/09/21/637368.html - "Feds putting smut before heroes". The article is about a documentary filmed by Garth Pritchard about troops in Afghanistan, and funded independently due to difficulties in obtaining Telefilm Canada funding.

"Luckily for Pritchard and all of Canada, Nancy Southern, the CEO of ATCO, independently and with her own non-corporate dollars, has funded Pritchard's trips to Afghanistan because she "trusts" Pritchard, likes that he's a one-man show and believes nation-building can only be accomplished if we know who we really are.

"I have a really strong belief that we don't do our military justice in Canada," explains Southern.

"Virtually no one is telling the stories of our military heroes and Garth is prepared to go and do that and so that's the reason I'm helping him."

That's great, it really is, but isn't it pathetic that our tax dollars so easily fund porn but not stuff that makes us proud?

Somebody should do a documentary on that."

The sad part is that most Canadians probably won't get an opportunity to see the piece.


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## NMPeters (21 Sep 2004)

I would like to take a minute to get back to the original post and the suggestion that the tanks being replaced by Strykers was not in the media. I'll have to beg to differ here. The news conference with LGen Hillyer and then MND John MacCallum was on 29 Oct 2003. On 30 Oct 2003, the following newspapers ran the story: Kinston Whig Standard, Edmonton Journal, Toronto Star, Calgary Sun, Saskatoon Star Phoenix, Montreal Gazette, The Province, Winnipeg Free Press, the Guardian, Chronicle Herald, Hamilton Spectator, Le Nouvelliste, Edmonton sun, London Free Press, Winnipeg Sun, The Globe and Mail and the National Post. Subsequent articles were also run by many, if not all, of the above mentioned media in the 2 to 3 days following the initial announcement. It actually made for an interesting debate within the printed news. I'm not sure what televised news broadcast there was covering the story.

Today's military focus, in the media clips, concerns the Prime Minister in meetings to determine whether the CF will actually be providing Provincial Reconstruction Teams in Afghanistan for the next tour. The daily news is full of stories about the military - not all of it Army, and I think that is where we in uniform here on this board tend to put the blinders on. We forget that news articles on the Navy and Air Force are military coverage as well. I see more and more good news stories concerning the CF everyday. There will be some bad news stories. But the positive coverage is increasing exponentially as the CF works at, and I think I've said this in another post, regaining the trust between us and the media that was destroyed about 10 years ago, if there was any then to begin with. The attitudes of both sides are changing for the better. It won't happen over night but it is changing.

I agree with pbi. Grassroots education is the key to influencing how Canadians perceive the CF. And it cannot just be articles in the newspaper. By the way, the majority of people who read the newspaper will only read the first two or three paragraphs of an article before moving on to the next headline. Connecting with Canadians is one of the objectives of the Army. There are Army Reserve units in 110 communities across the country. These units are windows for Canadians to view the CF. It is true that the smaller communities are more likely to report on their local Reserve unit as opposed to the metropolitan cities, but then the more metropolitan cities tend to look at the global Army or CF as opposed to what's there in their own backyard. But I do stress that making that connection within your communities is the vital. And I wouldn't be so quick to put the Cadet Organization on the back burner as being irrelevant to how the CF is viewed by the general public. Since many of the cadet units are affiliated with Army Reserve Units and wear their cap badges and such, they too are a conduit into the overall perception. The best way that Canadians can be informed as to what the CF is about, is by talking to them.

I don't know who posted it and I can't go back with this computer because I'll lose everything, but I'm a little disturbed by the poster who was speaking with his aunt and was so frustrated by her lack of knowledge of the CF that he said that he trains to kill people. My question is, what did that accomplish? Why could you have not just explained that yes, you do weapons training and handling, because you are training to protect Canada and Canadians at home and abroad and that there may come a time where force will be necessary and you need to be trained for that situation? You could have explained to your aunt all the assistance that the CF has given to Canada domestically over the years. I think that would have educated her a bit and probably left her with a better feeling than that being her nephew is training to murder people.

Education is the key with positive reinforcement. If one person walks away with a positive feeling about us, then they'll tell two friends who will tell two friends and so on and so on and so on (I know I stole that from a shampoo commercial).

(edited for spelling. I hit the post button before the spell check)


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## 42PF (21 Sep 2004)

Civvies are not in the dark. They simply don't care.


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## arctictern (21 Sep 2004)

42PF said:
			
		

> Civvies are not in the dark. They simply don't care.




This in a sense means that civvies are in "the dark" because they don't know what's going on, think of it metaphorically.


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## dutchie (21 Sep 2004)

I used to get really bent out of shape when I experienced civies that were really clueless about the military. Now, I don't really care one way or the other. I have chosen this path, but they haven't. I suppose we live in a society that places responsibility for protecting our citizens on some (soldiers), so that the rest of them can go about their lives enjoying the freedom soldiers provide while not concerning themselves with the details. 

Of course, EVERY citizen should at least be aware of the sacrifices our soldiers have made (particularly in WW1 & 2), but I no longer require them to know or even care about the latest deployment. 

Having said that, I have a passion for the military, and like it when others share my passion, but it's not a requirement of citizenship or a pre-requisite for being a 'good guy'.


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## Sig_Des (21 Sep 2004)

It is the soldier, not the reporter
who has given us the freedom of press.
It is the soldier, not the poet,
who has given us the freedom of speech.
It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,
who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.
It is the soldier, not the lawyer,
who has given us the right to a fair trial.
It is the soldier who salutes the flag,
who serves under the flag,
whose coffin is draped by the flag,
and who allows the protester to burn the flag.

"The Soldier"~ by Charles M. Province


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## Nat. Cap. Girl (21 Sep 2004)

I'm just repeating this question because I didn't get any responses to it, and thought that maybe people didn't see it.



			
				Six pack said:
			
		

> I just discovered Truth, Duty, Valour on OLN, and I thought it was pretty cool, and sheds a positive light on the military.  I'm just a civy, so I wanted to know your (you military folk) opinions of it?


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## dutchie (21 Sep 2004)

I saw one episode of it. It was showcasing the Basic Mountain Ops course. Quite realistic and very well done. Showed troops in a good light, showed a good mix of the physical demands, mental demands, basic structure of the section/platoon, some weapons stuff, and some LCF video (rappeling, weapons, etc).
Now if only it was on a channel with more exposure than the OLN (like CBC or CTV).


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## Nat. Cap. Girl (21 Sep 2004)

perhaps we should all send emails to some of the major broadcasting companies and maybe they'll do something about it?


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## Sig_Des (21 Sep 2004)

I personally enjoy TDV, but as mentioned, it doens't get a lot of exposure. But it's a well-made show, and if you read the credits, allows for a lot of imput from the military.


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## Ex-Dragoon (21 Sep 2004)

Truth Duty and Valour was also discussed several months ago when it first aired which is maybe why you never got the reaction you hoped for.


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## Nat. Cap. Girl (21 Sep 2004)

k thanks, i'll do a search


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## 30fdGunner (21 Sep 2004)

I attended Stalwart Guardian, the big reserve excercise, this summer. And i was dumbfounded to hear some of the questions asked by some of the civilians who came to observe. I am a member of the artillery, and i had some rediculous questions asked to me.For example; One person was amazed to find out that canadian artillery systems could fire at night. He thought we didnt have the technology to fire at night any more.  For many civilians CADPAT was a very amazing thing. When they found out that it was currently the best camouflage in the world, they all became very proud of that fact. Not a single one had ever seen a lav before they attended the ex. Many other things such as the training we go through, completely amazed these civilians. Not too mention the fact that we actually have live ammo, surprised many. These show how well informed the civilian population is about their military. How are we supposed to expect the canadian population to have pride in their military, when they are this informed.


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## pbi (21 Sep 2004)

> These show how well informed the civilian population is about their military. How are we supposed to expect the canadian population to have pride in their military, when they are this informed.



But this can be overcome, a little at a time. We make a huge mistake if we equate the mostly benign ignorance of our people with dislike or hatred or mockery. As you pointed out yourself, once they are educated, they are often pleasantly surprised and quite proud. I have sometimes been very moved by the expressions of pride and encouragement expressed by just ordinary folks. In particular I remember the reactions of folks in Manitoba when we deployed into the Red River Valley for OP ASSISTANCE in early 1997. It was truly, truly amazing and it really made me stop and think about my attitudes towards civvies.

IMHO, if WE do not tell our own story, who will? It is NOT the job of the media to be our publicists, although they can certainly be of use. We can do a huge job of connecting, educating and "converting" if we try. My advice (especially to Reserve soldiers, who are often the Army's "front line" on this...):

-Never pass up a chance to do public speaking. Encourage your people to speak too, regardless of rank;

-Support community footprint stuff (some units, both Reserve and Regular, do a fantastic job of this, some do nothing);

-Wear your uniform to any important event. You'll be surprised at the positive reaction from most Canadians;

-never let BS get published unnoticed. Reserve soldiers, because of their "semi-civvy" status, have a unique advantage in being able to write and speak as private citizens as long as they don't violate the OSA or OPSEC. If you see ill-informed crap in your local paper, write in. If you don't challenge it, who will?;   and

-if you are in a command position, make your PA people a key part of your team. Too many of us old Cbt A types are suspicious or dismissive of PA folks and what they can do. IMHO, info is a weapon: it will be used either by us or against us. Strike first, I say. Cheers.


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## Sig_Des (22 Sep 2004)

> Reserve soldiers, because of their "semi-civvy" status, have a unique advantage in being able to write and speak as private citizens as long as they don't violate the OSA or OPSEC



Just to add on to that, we can right in as reservists under the afore-mentioned conditions, but it still a good idea to run it by your PA people. Maybe the way you write something can be misinterpreted, and as mentioned, the media can be a killer with twisting words.

And believe me, If your CO reads your name in the paper, doens't like what he sees, next parade night can suck..


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## pbi (22 Sep 2004)

Mopo_26 said:
			
		

> Just to add on to that, we can right in as reservists under the afore-mentioned conditions, but it still a good idea to run it by your PA people. Maybe the way you write something can be misinterpreted, and as mentioned, the media can be a killer with twisting words.
> 
> And believe me, If your CO reads your name in the paper, doens't like what he sees, next parade night can suck..



I guess you could do that, although if you don't use your rank or identify yourself as a member of the military it isn't really needed. But, it probably won't hurt. If you do use rank and identify your unit, etc. then you need to run it by your PAO shop.

On your second point, while I'd be the last one to encourage bad behaviour, I have to ask on what grounds your CO (or anybody in the military, for that matter...) could actually do anything as long as you had acted as a civilian, and had not violated the laws of Canada? He might not like it, but it really couldn't be the basis of any formal action. That is the beauty of being a Class A Reservist, and why the CLS recognizes their importance in connecting with Canadians. Regulars like me are subject to the Code of Service Discipline and other regulations and restrictions 24/7, but Res have a bit more flex. Use it wisely. Cheers.


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## GGboy (22 Sep 2004)

Some very interesting points in this thread, and at the risk of "outing" myself as a journalist (and reservist) I actually know a fair bit about recent developments in military-media relations.
I think in the past 3-4 years the CF in general, and the Public Affairs branch in particular, have made enormous strides in getting the message out. Look at Op Athena for eg: in addition to the almost daily coverage of Roto 0 in almost every newspaper in the country, the bloody CBC hosted its national news program from Camp Julien, the first time the National had ever been based outside Canada. This would've been unthinkable even 5 years ago. Even the Toronto Star is now running stories about the military including (gasp!) a recent editorial calling for more support for the CF.
Almost every example raised here about things the media never covers, and/or that the public doesn't know about, HAS been covered. I've personally written almost a dozen stories about CadPat and Clothe the Soldier for instance. The Truth, Duty, Valour series was a huge ratings success for the Outside Life Network, so much so that it has been picked up by the main CTV network this fall.
And in my experience, the public response to such stories about the military is overwhelmingly positive. People may not know a lot about the military, but they're learning and they love reading about what our soldiers, sailors and airmen are doing, whether its in Kabul or Haiti or even Petawawa.
Not to say that there haven't been shortcomings in either the media's coverage or the CF's public relations efforts -- some senior officers continue to shy away from publicity, thinking it's a career killer -- but overall, things are MUCH improved over the mid-1990s. 
Part of the reason why there doesn't seem to be as much coverage of the military is that while the newspapers or wire services have begun to cover the CF, radio and television coverage has lagged. To put it bluntly, TV and radio follow the agenda set by print and it takes some of my broadcast colleagues a while to catch on to the fact that stories about the military are of increasing interest to the public.
This will improve with time: the only question is will it improve quickly enough to stop the government from cutting the CF into virtual non-existence. On the plus side, the politicos have been made painfully aware that journalists are watching what happens to the CF very closely and whatever they do in future to our military will not be done in the dark.


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## Scratch_043 (22 Sep 2004)

Has anyone seen the new show, Tactical to Practical? I haven't seen it myself, but it looks like something that is both intersting to the public, and informs them of where the advancements that made the products possible came from.


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## bigwig (22 Sep 2004)

Yeah I caught about 10 minutes of that show on the history channel the other day. They were showing how the parachute has been used by the military and by fire fighters. I also saw a small segment on NVG and how it is used in the military. This is a good show to shed some light for the civilian population because it shows how a civilian could put this equipment to use. This way I think more civilians would watch because it interests them, and when they watch they also become more aware of the military.


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## Lost_Warrior (22 Sep 2004)

Most civilians are not interested in are military because of the state it's in.   When I mention to people that I'm in the army, the usual response is "yeah, but it's only the Canadian army"

I even had one ignorant individual say to me "how can you tell when the real fighting is over?   When the Canadians come rolling in"

It's this additude and public image that has us cursed...


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## skura (22 Sep 2004)

Hope I don't shoot myself in the foot by posting here, but here it goes anyway;

Has anyone ever asked one these people who say "It's only the Canadian Army..." what they would do if they were in charge?  From what I heard / read about most peoples opinions on our army it's like they expect us to be fighting all the time, and supporting and sending troops to help with wars in other countries.  

I don't understand how people can talk trash about our army, especially Canadians if they have no first hand experience.  It's no secret that our military isn't a "powerhouse", and it's not entirely the facts that we are undermaned and underfunded, because I'm sure that even if we had the size and technology as say the American Army, our role in wars wouldn't change (I think).

So if this question was asked, and the person being questioned respond by saying something like "getting involved in more wars, and establishing Canada as a powerful nation"...then you know they're a little more off base then I usually am (and may be here)...

(Just in case I take some heat on this I'm just another civilian with no experience and little knowledge about the operations of our military, my opinion is an outside opinion with very little backing it...just trying to show some support from the civvie side of things I guess...perhaps if there was more awareness to the public about our army then there wouldn't be so many negative opinions about the Canadian Army, and people like me would have more to contribute to conversations such as these and not be so sticky about our army.  I think this has been mentioned before, if it has I support it, if not, what do you all think about it?)


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## dglad (22 Sep 2004)

In my experience, as a senior Reserve officer who also deals extensively with civilian authorities at a variety of levels, there's actually a lot of good-will among civilians for the CF.  Sure, there are some on the fringe that say, "get rid of the CF and put the money into health care, or affordable housing, or <insert cause du jour here>".  Most Canadians, though, truly want Canada to have a "capable" military.  The real question, though, is capable of what, exactly?

I don't think you'll find the Canadian public supporting a massive militarization, a la the US.  First of all, we could never afford it (frankly, the US can't afford it, either.  The growth of public debt in the US, a big chunk of which is going to fund military spending, is going to become a central global economic issue in the not-too-distant future).  Secondly, the Canadian public has much higher spending priorities...and the goverment answers to what it perceives the Canadian taxpayers want (and, like it or not, the military works for the civilian government in a stable democracy).  Having said all of that, Canadians probably will generally support the CF participating in multi-lateral operations intended to restore and maintain peace and order where it has broken down.  Unfortunately, that's about as far as it goes; most civvies wouldn't be able to suggest exactly what such a military should consist of.  And that's fair...I probably couldn't suggest exactly what capabilities would be required to operate a major airport or build a a digital cell-phone network (we all can't know everything, can we?)

So the good-will is generally there, supporting a military that can act as part of a coalition (probably enabled by something like a UN SCR) to halt, and set the conditions for repair of a humanitarian tragedy or an "unjust" conflict somewhere in the world.  I think that most Canadians genuinely want a military that is properly equipped and trained to do that job; just don't expect them to offer details of what that equipment and training should be (that's the job of the government and the military).  And don't expect widespread support for a massive build-up, or large-scale generation of high-intensity combat capability...unless we end up facing the 21st century equivalent of WW1 or WW2.  Canadians have a history of answering that sort of call whole-heartedly (and, yes, doing it from way behind an eight-ball of underfunded, undermanned and under-equipped forces unready for the sort of conflict they're suddenly facing.  Unfortunately, few, if any countries seem to learn that particular lesson.)


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## pbi (22 Sep 2004)

GGBoy: very good post. I agree with you, but I still stress that the info battle is OUR fight, not the media's, and we have to do more, not less. There are tons of good things going on across the Army to help with this: in our Bde, for example, Community Footprint is a specific part of our Bde Op Plan and our units, in their Op Plans, must show how they intend to achieve presence. Some of our units, (such as the one recently commanded by "bgreen" a poster on this site), do a really first class job. Others make an effort, and one or two do not too much(although this is improving).

As an example of increased media interest in the military, especially the Army Reserve, last year during OP PEREGRINE (BC fires) our Bde mounted two firefighting companies(over 200 troops, with more in waiting) for JTF PEREGRINE. We got bags of media coverage (I even got on TV...) and the troops were clearly and specifically identified as "Army Reserve Soldiers" not "members of the CF" or other wimpy crap. Several media outlets assisted our mobilization plan by  broadcasting messages to our soldiers to report to their units, and most media did a great job of passing on our thanks to schools and emloyers for letting the troops go.


But, we extended our info op beyond that. Each emloyer/school received a letter of thanks from the Bde Comd, and we had a special OP PEREGRINE poster made that our soldiers could give to their employers, their schools (or stick on the wall at home).

Things are MUCH better than they were even a decade ago, but we can;t rest on our laurels: we have to keep educating our people. Cheers.


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## pbi (22 Sep 2004)

Hi dglad. Welcome. Hope your tour is going well. Excellent post. What's your take on what Res units can do for better footprint? Cheers

DJB


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## Lost_Warrior (23 Sep 2004)

pbi, kind of makes me wish I was out west.   I am currently in Quebec.   Quebecers have never really been known for their "support for the military" and worst of all, I'm in Montreal, and my unit is right downtown, and to get there I have the pleasure of walking around 2 major North American universities with all their anti-american/anti-"globalization" anti-military students....

So it's become a routine.  Leave the subway, walk down the street, meet and greet dirty looks and stupid remarks, then walk into the unit.

The last major "disaster" here in Montreal was the Ice Storm in 1998.  The CF was all over the place helping out.  At the time, I was a civilian, but a friend of mine was in the reserves.  Had it not been for him, I would have never known the CF was involved in the efforts.


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## dglad (23 Sep 2004)

pbi said:
			
		

> Hi dglad. Welcome. Hope your tour is going well. Excellent post. What's your take on what Res units can do for better footprint? Cheers
> 
> DJB



Going very well.  Working in a multinational HQ is an eye-opening experience.  More than anything, I've learned that the problems we face are shared by many other armies around the world--even the "big boys", like the UK and US (who are wrestling with all kinds of issues these days, not surprisingly).

Res units need to seize every opportunity to push themselves into the faces of their communities.  In particular, I think Res units should investigate ways (within the constraints of their chain of comd, of course), to get involved in local emergency response planning.  There are, of course, lots of such constraints, but even having "observers" attend local municipal emergency response meetings and exercises puts the uniform right directly into the civvie focus, in a very relevant way.  The trick is to manage expectations (our own municipality believed we had endless resources to bring to the table...no, I'm sorry, I don't have a helicopter squadron on-call).   Res units should also get maximum mileage out of members who participate in op deployments (developing good relationships with the local media are very important).  Parades and ceremonial activities are well and fine, but too many of these sends the wrong message i.e. we look pretty, but that's about it.  Above all, we have to convince the taxpaying public that we're worth the investment.

A final point all Res units should keep in mind is that THEY are the ambassadors for the Army in Canada.  The Reg F is now installed in exactly five locations across the country--Edmonton, Shilo, Petawawa, Valcartier and Gagetown.  Only the first of those is an urban setting. If the Res F doesn't pick up the slack in "connecting with Canadians", then the Army is going to fade even further from the public consciousness (even op deployments are pretty transparent to the average Canadian, unless they're new or something goes very right or very wrong to get them into the media).


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## pbi (24 Sep 2004)

Roger that. I am not sure what is happening in other LFAs/CBGs, but I think we are doing pretty well on the domestic emergency response issue. Comd LFWA's letter of last year auth Res COs to respond on "life and limb" civil disasters, as well our involvement in PEREGRINE, complemented by the advanced state of CONPLAN BISON, position us pretty well. It's also clear that the role of the Army Res in Dom Ops will become greater, not smaller. IMHO this is exactly as it should be. As you note, the trick (especially for you guys in TBay who are technically inside LFCA for Dom Ops) is managing civil expectations which in my experience are usually very unrealistic. More info ops required! Cheers.

DJB


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## 2 Cdo (30 Nov 2004)

Someone wrote about what a good show Truth, Duty, Valour was. Thats the problem, if people are watching that homogenized, bland, completely politically correct crap and think this is how the military really is, then we're really hurting. If I wasn't a serving member who remembers what the army was like before SHARP, harassment training, and all the other touchy, feely crap then this would definitly convince me to head south or across to England and join a real army. Unlike our glorified constabulary!
Have a nice day! :threat:


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## canuck101 (30 Nov 2004)

If I wasn't a serving member who remembers what the army was like before SHARP, harassment training, and all the other touchy, feely crap then this would definitely convince me to head south or across to England and join a real army. Unlike our glorified constabulary!

If you feel that way why stay in the CF.  Go to England or America now stop wasting time here as a glorified constable. I always say don't leave it for another day when you can do it now.  Unless you are willing to reside in England for five years now you may find it hard to get in the British Army.  Well i think i have taken enough time up here with my thoughts. ;D


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## Slim (30 Nov 2004)

423 Squadron...Good job  

Canuck101

If I wasn't a serving member who remembers what the army was like before SHARP, harassment training, and all the other touchy, feely crap then this would definitely convince me to head south or across to England and join a real army. Unlike our glorified constabulary

I see by your profile that you have yet to serve a day...either before or after SHARP training. Please go and walk the road before you tell us all how smooth you think it is.


Because I'll tell you right now its not the same army and the standards have slipped.
Slim


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## ArmyRick (30 Nov 2004)

To those of you in our country (civilians) who appreciate your military. Thank you...


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## Big Foot (30 Nov 2004)

Sharing a story from my personal experience. Last Christmas when I had just arrived back in Calgary from St-Jean, myself and my family went out to a restaurant before going home. I was in full dress uniform, army uniform and the waitress asked, and I quote "What airline do you fly for?" I mean, would it be too much to expect that the Canada patch, the thin stripe and the beret would give me away as military? I guess regardless of what the military does, there will always be ignorant people.


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## canuck101 (30 Nov 2004)

My profile may not show that i was not in the military so what.  I know the standards have gone down but if you are in a job that you don't like and have the ability to change it for the better do it. If he feels he can do better in another countries military more power to him.Life is short go where you feel that you will live life to the fullest. I bare no ill will against anyone.


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## Big Foot (30 Nov 2004)

Sorry Slim, no disrespect meant.


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## Slim (30 Nov 2004)

Canuck101

Since you've never been a soldier it may be difficult for you to understand that being a soldier and loyalty to a specific unit is not quite like going to the office every Monday morning and logging into your computer. Soldiers see, do and experience things that civilians never understand and cannot comprehend.

Civilians don't think outside of themselves very much if at all. For the professional soldier he can do little else. A military unit is like a family. And for someone who was in the combat arms even more so. For the Canadian Airborn Regt. this is taken to an unbelievable degree and the pain of loss upon departure is VERY SEVERE AND CAN BE QUITE TRAUMATIC!

So when someone talks about going elsewhere to join another nation's military its not quite the same as switching from civvie job A and going across the street to B. They feel like the very thing tha they have sworn their life to defend at all costs has let them down and the bitterness is quite intense. Almost like being married and after 10 years of happyness your wife suddenly announces that she is going to start bringing other men to her bed. How would you feel about that?!

Please remember that you are walking in the company of soldiers here. Men and women who have walked in places you'll never go and done things you'll never do and can't possibly understand. They are different than you and this is their site.

Try to remember that please.

Slim

PS - Bigfoot. Thanks for the PM apology accepted


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## camochick (30 Nov 2004)

I'm a journalism student and I understand how the military gets none of the spotlight. My plans are to try and change that. The military interests me. Not just about equipment and exercises and peacekeeping, but the real stories behind all that. The soldiers who do the job, the real stories behind the peackeeping missions, the families affected by all of this. I think if the general public is shown how things really are then maybe it will help in getting funding and support from the public. Then again I may just be dreaming.


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## canuck101 (1 Dec 2004)

I do respect your service as i do for my fathers service in the military, my aunts military service my grandfathers service to his country and mine. It may not say that in my profile but i was in the reserves.I have the most respect for people who have served there country and are serving now. My family has had a proud tradition of serving there country. I can remember the rules about what you could do and not do what has changed and the way it was. 

 I still say it is not healthy for anyone to be in a job civilian or military if they don't like it.  Yes i know in the military you have contracts you have to honor but that does not mean you have to keep doing the same thing after your contract is up change can be hard.  I you ask anyone i know i am always the first to stand up for the military.  I have recommended the reserves to many of my friends and a few have joined and they like the life. I am always proud to see someone in a military uniform in Canada there are to few of them.


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## dutchie (1 Dec 2004)

Canuck101:

If you spent any time in the Reserves, you should know when to shut yer pie-hole. You said something stupid, which in itself is no great sin (I have done the same both here and elsewhere). But when you follow that up with "my father, aunt, granfather was a soldier, oh yeah, and I wasin the MO for 5 minutes too", you make it much worse. Your res service might give you some cred here, but your family's experience means jack squat.

Just admit your wrong, and move on. Or just shut yer yap and move on. You are in no position to tell an experienced soldier, much less a former CAR Trooper, that he should quit his complaining. 

PS-he didn't say he was even thinkning of quiting, he merely commented on how pansy-arse the CF is compared to years past, and how lame TDV is (and I agree on both points).


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## canuck101 (1 Dec 2004)

Sorry for my comments that may have upset some people it will not happen again.


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## bossi (1 Dec 2004)

Big Foot said:
			
		

> Sharing a story from my personal experience ... I was in full dress uniform, army uniform and the waitress asked, and I quote "What airline do you fly for?" I mean, would it be too much to expect that the Canada patch, the thin stripe and the beret would give me away as military? I guess regardless of what the military does, there will always be ignorant people.



I must have met her cousin at Mirabel airport, where I was asked the identical question ... and I was wearing kilt and glengarry (... hmmm ... Caledonia Airlines ... "If it's nae Scottish, it's crap!")


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## Gunner (1 Dec 2004)

> Sharing a story from my personal experience. Last Christmas when I had just arrived back in Calgary from St-Jean, myself and my family went out to a restaurant before going home. I was in full dress uniform, army uniform and the waitress asked, and I quote "What airline do you fly for?" I mean, would it be too much to expect that the Canada patch, the thin stripe and the beret would give me away as military? I guess regardless of what the military does, there will always be ignorant people.



It is surprising how many Canadians don't know the uniform of their military.  When VAdm Ron Buck was Comd MARPAC, he was once transiting through Victoria Airport to catch a his ride back to Esquimalt.  As he exitted the airport he must have had to wait a couple of seconds/minutes for the car to pull up.  A car drove up and a lady got out and she looked at him and asked him for assistance with her bags in the trunk!  He subsequently started an ambitious program to educate the public on military issues in Victoria.


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## KevinB (1 Dec 2004)

Gunner - your sure it was not some Patrica's wife pulling his leg  ;D


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## camochick (1 Dec 2004)

I used to live in fredericton which most know is right beside Gagetown and we had these ten or so university students that went around protesting the fact that a handful of officers would come into fredericton to do urban warfare training. They didnt even have guns, they just walked around with a compass and paper and stuff. No one really noticed them, but these little protestors thought they were threatening to the city of fredericton. They didnt even take the time to try and understand what these people were doing. They just assumed that army=war=bad. They also bitched and bitched about armed forces day, which they held in Fredericton as a showcase of what the military does.They said it scared refugees and made kids want to play with guns. I thought armed forces day was great for making the public aware of the military and it's role in Canada. But last year they didnt have it, so I guess the protestors won.


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## foerestedwarrior (1 Dec 2004)

KevinB said:
			
		

> Gunner - your sure it was not some Patrica's wife pulling his leg   ;D


lol

I know I have had my bad experiances with being excluded from a media spotlight. Last christmas, close to this time, myslef and 3 other members of my unit went to an event called christmas cheer in Barrie. Our job being the big strong guys there, was to pick up and stack about 1200 boxes, each weighing about 50 lbs. For those of you wondering thats approx 60 000lbs of food and toys and stuff. The local media took approx 20 minutes of video tape of us lifting all the boxes, and stuff, we were in uniform of course. Then they did a 10 minute interview with the organizer of the group. In the newscast, we were not even shown, letalone had it said we were there. Now dont get me wrong, we were not there to get on the news or something. Though it annoyed me that they HAD the video of us working, and they didnt even show it. 

I have run into alot of mis informed people, or peopel who have very little to no info on the forces. I always take the time to talk to them and explain what I do, alot of them seem very impressed that I am so young(20) and am doing this, even more so when they realized I started when i was 16 and in high school. Unless someone obviously doesnt care about me, and is insulting me, I will try to inform and educate as many peopel as I can, and i stress this on as many service members as will listen to me on this argument. 

Just a few thoughts.


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## Gunner (1 Dec 2004)

> Gunner - your sure it was not some Patrica's wife pulling his leg



Ha ha. I may have been some retired Patricia's lady as most of the Patricia's were long gone when this happened (~98).

Cheers,


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## air533 (19 Mar 2005)

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