# Geographic and occupational factor questions



## PhoenixRising (4 Jun 2016)

I have been researching the minimum medical standards to join the CAF, and there are a couple of things that I'm confused about. I understand that the minimum category to be enrolled (the common standard) is 432225. However, when looking at the standards for different occupations on the government website (here), I noticed many of the supporting or administrative jobs list G and O factors of 3, not of 2. I am pretty sure my geographic factor would be G3 as I am on some prescription medication, however I do not need to see my doctor more than once a year (he writes me scripts with enough refills of my medication to last a year at a time). Does this mean that I would be automatically disqualified from service even if I only applied for jobs which list the minimum standard as G3 on that link? If so, why list the minimum standards as anything different from G2 at all?

I'm also curious about the occupational factor for similar reasons. I do not know if I would be a O2 or O3. The most detailed information I've been able to find about the occupational factor is also on the government website (here) and I am wondering if there is any more detailed info available, specifically, what counts as a MEL? Is there a list anywhere where I can view what conditions are considered MELs?

I am planning to discuss this with a recruiter in the future, but it may be months before I have the time to do so as the recruitment office's hours are pretty much exactly when I work at my current job. I guess what I want to know is basically if it's even worth applying with a possible medical category of G3 or O3. Almost all of the trades I am interested in list those categories as the minimum standard on the above link, which makes me feel like I do have a shot, and yet other sources indicate that I can't be enrolled in ANY trade unless I have G2 and O2. Can anybody help me make sense of this?


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## mariomike (4 Jun 2016)

PhoenixRising said:
			
		

> Can anybody help me make sense of this?



I can't. But, I read this in Ask a CAF Recruiter,



			
				Sergeant Laen said:
			
		

> If you have specific medical questions you should contact the recruiting detachment nearest you and ask to speak with a member of the medical staff directly.
> 
> Best Regards,
> Sgt Laen


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## PuckChaser (4 Jun 2016)

No one is going to give you medical advice or guess your medical category here. MELs can be anything from "Only shave when operationally required" to "Unfit service in military environment". Its not the fact that you take prescription medication, its a case of what that underlying medical condition is that requires you to take medication, and the outcomes of you not having that medication.

Look at the medical risk matrix here, and maybe it'll help you frame where your condition fits. Be very honest with yourself, because the MO/PA doing your physical for enrollment will be brutally honest with you:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-medical-occupations/caf-medical-risk-matrix.page


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## ModlrMike (4 Jun 2016)

PhoenixRising said:
			
		

> I have been researching the minimum medical standards to join the CAF, and there are a couple of things that I'm confused about. I understand that the minimum category to be enrolled (the common standard) is 432225. However, when looking at the standards for different occupations on the government website (here), I noticed many of the supporting or administrative jobs list G and O factors of 3, not of 2. I am pretty sure my geographic factor would be G3 as I am on some prescription medication, however I do not need to see my doctor more than once a year (he writes me scripts with enough refills of my medication to last a year at a time). Does this mean that I would be automatically disqualified from service even if I only applied for jobs which list the minimum standard as G3 on that link? If so, why list the minimum standards as anything different from G2 at all?



You must meet the more stringent of either the CEMS, or the occupational standard for your desired MOC. For example, if your MOC has 212225 and the CEMS is 432225, they you would have to achieve 212225.



			
				PhoenixRising said:
			
		

> I'm also curious about the occupational factor for similar reasons. I do not know if I would be a O2 or O3. The most detailed information I've been able to find about the occupational factor is also on the government website (here) and I am wondering if there is any more detailed info available, specifically, what counts as a MEL? Is there a list anywhere where I can view what conditions are considered MELs?



MELs are Medical Employment Limitations. Typically, you must be available for unrestricted employment within your desired MOC however there is a slim possibility of enrollment with limitations: "An applicant with a medical category below [this] standard but not below V4 CV3 H4 G4 O4 A5 may be accepted for enrollment with employment limitations providing any existing medical condition will not be aggravated by military service. 



			
				PhoenixRising said:
			
		

> I am planning to discuss this with a recruiter in the future, but it may be months before I have the time to do so as the recruitment office's hours are pretty much exactly when I work at my current job. I guess what I want to know is basically if it's even worth applying with a possible medical category of G3 or O3. Almost all of the trades I am interested in list those categories as the minimum standard on the above link, which makes me feel like I do have a shot, and yet other sources indicate that I can't be enrolled in ANY trade unless I have G2 and O2. Can anybody help me make sense of this?



You should always apply and let the system sort the issue out. That being said, if you view your chances as less than ideal you owe it to yourself to have a back up plan.

We will not begin to guess what your G or O factors are going to be. That is a decision for the recruiting medical system.


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## PhoenixRising (4 Jun 2016)

So just to clarify, if my desired MOC has a standard of 323335 and the CEMS is 432225, I must have 322225 to get in? If so, does that mean no one with G3 or O3 can get into that MOC, even though it's listed as the minimum standard?

I am not trying to get anyone to guess what my medical categories would be. I am just trying to figure out if it's possible to get in at all with medical categories below G2/O2, as I suspect (I am not trying to say I am 100% certain) I might fall in one such category. At any rate I won't be applying in the immediate future, but I am just trying to figure out if I'd be automatically disqualified because of health issues. My condition is fairly rare and very poorly understood, so I'm not comfortable advertising what it is on this forum, but I will answer questions about my medication if anyone might be able to help me clarify this stuff with more information.

To be honest, I will probably still apply no matter what, because I do want the opinion of a trained army medical professional before I give up based on mere speculation. But since it won't be in the immediate future I'm trying to get some information to get a better idea of what my chances are before going through the application process. I'm looking at joining the reserves, not the reg force, and the military is not my #1 career ambition - I'm currently in university to become a teacher. I would like to join the reserve force because I want to give back to my country and because the skills I could learn/opportunities I would have in the military appeal to me.


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## Loachman (4 Jun 2016)

Regardless of any information you may or may not find here, you will still never know until you actually apply. That is the standard response that we give for people who ask such questions, as it is the only reasonable one that we CAN give.

Should you not be accepted, consider serving as a Cadet Instructor Cadre Officer. There is usually a need for motivated and competent people there.


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## PuckChaser (4 Jun 2016)

You need to meet the trade medical category to get into that trade, it will either mirror CEMS or more strict based on the trade requirements.


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## CombatDoc (4 Jun 2016)

PhoenixRising said:
			
		

> So just to clarify, if my desired MOC has a standard of 323335 and the CEMS is 432225, I must have 322225 to get in? If so, does that mean no one with G3 or O3 can get into that MOC, even though it's listed as the minimum standard.


If the Common Enrolment Medical Standard is G2O2, then that is what you must meet as a potential recruit. That does, in fact, mean that if you would be classified as a G3 or an O3 then you will not be enrolled into the CAF.


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## PhoenixRising (4 Jun 2016)

PuckChaser, I guess what I'm not getting is why certain trades are listed as having lower standards (especially in the geographic and occupational factors) as the CEMS. It seems as though those standards are irrelevant if everyone has to meet the higher standards before the trade standard applies.

Loachman, Being a cadet instructor actually sounds really fun and rewarding, so I might look into it, but are their medical standards really somehow lower than the CEMS? Are they technically not members of the armed forces? forces.ca has a really limited section on cadet instructors, so now I have even more questions.


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## mariomike (4 Jun 2016)

PhoenixRising said:
			
		

> Being a cadet instructor actually sounds really fun and rewarding, so I might look into it, but are their medical standards really somehow lower than the CEMS? Are they technically not members of the armed forces? forces.ca has a really limited section on cadet instructors, so now I have even more questions.



And we have the answers for you!  



			
				ModlrMike said:
			
		

> The last medical I did for a CIC applicant required that the candidate be able to breathe and have a pulse.  ;D



CIC Physical Fitness Standards - Locked.
http://army.ca/forums/threads/78996.25



			
				MedTech32 said:
			
		

> CIC or Cadet Instructor Cadre, are the Officer Corps of the Cadet movement and are recruited by the various Cadet corps to work there.  They are processed by the normal recruiting system however they have separate medical standards;



CIC Officer Application Question  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/118165.0

Cadet Officers  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/4337.0/nowap.html

CIC TRAINING  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/109126.0

Assistance joining CIC  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/89670.0

CIC enrollment 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/81575.50.html
3 pages.

etc...

See also,

Cadet Instructor Cadre ( CIC )
https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3Aarmy.ca+CIC&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=GFZTV7PSL42s8wfmgYLIDw&gws_rd=ssl


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## PuckChaser (4 Jun 2016)

CEMS isn't irrelevant, because we don't want to recruit people with problems already. Once you're in and trained, the CAF can tolerate a slide to G3 or O3 and still employ you effectively. Make more sense?


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## Blackadder1916 (4 Jun 2016)

PhoenixRising said:
			
		

> PuckChaser, I guess what I'm not getting is why certain trades are listed as having lower standards (especially in the geographic and occupational factors) as the CEMS. It seems as though those standards are irrelevant if everyone has to meet the higher standards before the trade standard applies.



The medical standards are not only used for enrolment, they are also standards that are applied to serving members throughout their service careers.  If a serving member fails to meet the minimum medical category for his occupation, then career action is taken, to either retain him (with limitations) in that occupation, transfer to another occupation or release him from the Forces.


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## PhoenixRising (4 Jun 2016)

Mariomike - Thank you so much for all the informative links about the Cadet Instructors Cadre.

PuckChasher and Blackadder1916, yes, that makes a lot more sense. I was not thinking about how existing members' medical conditions may change over time. I always assumed/was lead to believe that in the military, if your health begins to decline, you are released. It's nice to know that that isn't necessarily true. 

Also I didn't mean to say the CEMS was irrelevant. Rather, I thought it seemed like the requirements for a specific MOSID were irrelevant if they were below the requirements for the CEMS. But now that I realize the lower CEMS standards have to do with exisiting members' whose health conditions change over time it does finally make a lot more sense.

I guess now all I can do is wait to see if, after I do apply (since I will probably still be applying to the reserves in a trade other than cadet instructor), I qualify as a G3/O3 or a G2/O2. My impression is that anyone on any prescription medication is automatically a 3 but I have no idea how much variation or "wiggle room" there might be on a case-by-case basis or between res and reg force, desired trade, etc.


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## mariomike (4 Jun 2016)

PhoenixRising said:
			
		

> Mariomike - Thank you so much for all the informative links about the Cadet Instructors Cadre.



You are welcome. Good luck.


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