# Ordered to burn accumulated leave.



## Moxo (25 Jan 2011)

I am a LS and find myself in situation that just doesn't seem right. I am on a course which will break for 2 weeks in February. I have been told that i will have to use my accumulated leave in combination with my remaining annual leave to take that time off. Also that i could not come in to work for those 10 days. Meaning that i cannot just burn my 3 remaining annual and keep my 7 previously accumulated leave. The real kicker is that everyone with no leave will be granted 10 days special leave. My question is can they do this. Is there a reference that clearly states whether or not this is allowed to happen.

     On another note. I went to the pay office today and tried to sell my 7 accumulated days, but was told that that can only be done if the CDS authorizes this via a forces wide order. any clarification / references that could help me would be appreciated.


----------



## dangerboy (25 Jan 2011)

Here is the link to the CF Leave Policy Manual, it is the reference for questions regarding leave.

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pd/lea-con/cflpm-mprcfc-eng.asp

Hope this helps


----------



## PuckChaser (25 Jan 2011)

Google is your friend:

Dangerboy got the leave manual, you want sections 4.1/4.2.

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qro-orf/vol-01/doc/chapter-chapitre-016.pdf - QR&O 16.15 Accumulated Leave

Nowhere in either of those documents does it say you can be ordered to spend your accumulated leave. It can remain from year to year without use, and its up to you when you use it. You'll need to read the CBI on Payment in Lieu of Annual Leave.


----------



## Moxo (25 Jan 2011)

Thanks for  the references. And i agree that Google is my friend that is how I found this site.

I've read through the refs. It doesn't seem say they can force me to take my accumulated leave. But it also doesn't say they can't. Which is my problem. It has come down from my CO that I will use my accumulated leave. If i don't have something saying that he can't do that then I feel that I'm fighting a losing battle. 

As for the CBI, I can't acces that from home but was looking through it at work. the pay clerk showed me the paragraph that says the CDS has to authorize a payout. but the leave manual says 

"A member may request at any time a payment in lieu of leave accumulated since 1 April 1996."

which seems to apply to my case.  it goes on to say 

"The cashing out of leave accumulated prior to 1 April 1996 (i.e., accrued leave) is not normally authorized outside of national cash out programs, which are centrally funded and approved by the CDS."

so I take that to mean that I should be able to sell my leave since it was accumulated after 1996. I found another thread from 2009 on these forums. It seems the guy made the same argument and eventually got to sell his leave in that case. So how do I make my argument to the pay clerk without pissing him off.


----------



## PuckChaser (25 Jan 2011)

You don't argue, write a memo to your CO. State your intent to either bank your leave as per CF Leave Manual and QR&O16.15 or that you request cash payment in lieu of accumulated leave as per CBI xxx.xxx.

If you have a well-written memo, with solid references I bet you'll either keep the leave or be allowed to cash it. My bet is on keeping it, less paperwork. If they make you burn it, you can always redress it and gain compensation back.


----------



## Cdnleaf (25 Jan 2011)

Moxo said:
			
		

> I am a LS and find myself in situation that just doesn't seem right. I am on a course which will break for 2 weeks in February. I have been told that i will have to use my accumulated leave in combination with my remaining annual leave to take that time off. Also that i could not come in to work for those 10 days. Meaning that i cannot just burn my 3 remaining annual and keep my 7 previously accumulated leave. The real kicker is that everyone with no leave will be granted 10 days special leave. My question is can they do this. Is there a reference that clearly states whether or not this is allowed to happen.
> 
> On another note. I went to the pay office today and tried to sell my 7 accumulated days, but was told that that can only be done if the CDS authorizes this via a forces wide order. any clarification / references that could help me would be appreciated.



Thanks for the link on the new manual.

The short answer is yes / they can.  Section 5.5 and 5.6 Special Leave Military Courses and Education.  Sections 5.5.4 and 5.6.4 give the limitations and authorization in your case, to expend all annual/accumulated before granting special.  Anecdotally, you actually belong (meaning posted, att posted or TD; depending on the duration) to the school; so going back 'to work' is not an option.  You can always redress / good luck.


----------



## Occam (25 Jan 2011)

If I'm reading correctly, there are some misconceptions here.

Payment in Lieu of Annual Leave (CBI 205.75) - is used when you can't utilize all of your annual leave prior to the end of the FY, and aren't allowed to accumulate it.

Payment in Lieu of Accumulated Leave (CBI 205.76) - is used to cash out accumulated leave only at the member's request.  It may require CDS approval if the leave was accumulated prior to 1 April 1996 (as it comes out of a different pot of money), but it's still only done at the member's request.

Note para 3.1.05 in the Leave Manual states that members may be ordered on annual leave, but no such provision exists for Accumulated Leave.  However, there are several types of special leave, including Special Leave (Military Courses) and Special Leave (Education).  

Special Leave (Education) requires that all annual and accumulated leave be granted prior to Special Leave (Education) being granted.  However, Special Leave (Education) only applies to "Regular Force members attending an educational institution at public expense, including a Canadian Military College".  

This provision does not apply to Special Leave (Military Courses).  Are you attending a military course, or a civvie university/RMC?


----------



## McG (25 Jan 2011)

cdnleaf said:
			
		

> The short answer is yes / they can.  Section 5.5 and 5.6 Special Leave Military Courses and Education.  Sections 5.5.4 and 5.6.4 give the limitations and authorization in your case, to expend all annual/accumulated before granting special.


You have funny reading skills that let you see things that are not there.  First of all, your reference to Special Leave (Education) is superfluous - the member has indicated he is on course and that is something different than being a student at an academic institution.  Secondly, nowhere in either section does it state a requirement for members to consume all leave of any other sorts prior to being authorized Special Leave (Military Course).  In fact, I know of cases where Special Leave (Military Course) for individuals that still have annual leave remaining and I have never seen the existence of Accumulated or Accrued to be a consideration in granting of Special Leave (Military Course).  

But lets look deeper at what your magic reading skills missed.  Section 4.1.06 tells us:


> A member shall not be granted accumulated and/or accrued leave until all current year annual leave has been granted unless the accumulated and/or accrued leave is part of retirement leave.


Precedent is set (in the section on Accumulated Leave no-less) that our policy will explicitly state if a member must consume all of one leave type before being entitled to another leave type.  There is no such statement of requirement for Special Leave (Military Course).

I am curious who is approving the leave.  Army schools are not considered to be a "Canadian Military College" and as such the Commandants cannot approve Special Leave (Military Course) - these approvals must come all the way from Comd LFDTS or the appropriate Area Commander.


----------



## Moxo (25 Jan 2011)

I am on a QL5 course 18 months in duration. on a Canadian forces base I don't think that it qualifies as a Canadian Military College. I am not sure who is authorizing the leave I only know what I have already stated. There are a few of us in the same boat. There is a PO2 who is trying to advocate on our behalf but he doesn't have high hopes. I am just looking for any information I can get to help the situation. I appreciate all the comments from everyone here.


----------



## McG (25 Jan 2011)

I recomend you consider this:  http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qro-orf/vol-01/doc/chapter-chapitre-007.pdf

And don't wait for the time limit.  Submit it now so that the chain of command may have the opportunity to reconsider its position prior to you being forced to use leave that you do not need to use.


----------



## Cdnleaf (25 Jan 2011)

MCG said:
			
		

> You have funny reading skills that let you see things that are not there.  First of all, your reference to Special Leave (Education) is superfluous - the member has indicated he is on course and that is something different than being a student at an academic institution.  Secondly, nowhere in either section does it state a requirement for members to consume all leave of any other sorts prior to being authorized Special Leave (Military Course).  In fact, I know of cases where Special Leave (Military Course) for individuals that still have annual leave remaining and I have never seen the existence of Accumulated or Accrued to be a consideration in granting of Special Leave (Military Course).
> 
> But lets look deeper at what your magic reading skills missed.  Section 4.1.06 tells usrecedent is set (in the section on Accumulated Leave no-less) that our policy will explicitly state if a member must consume all of one leave type before being entitled to another leave type.  There is no such statement of requirement for Special Leave (Military Course).
> 
> I am curious who is approving the leave.  Army schools are not considered to be a "Canadian Military College" and as such the Commandants cannot approve Special Leave (Military Course) - these approvals must come all the way from Comd LFDTS or the appropriate Area Commander.



Thanks for your observation DS.  I will wager for a beverage of your desire, that for right or wrong their (the school and his Unit COC) response will be similar to my post.  Fear not, there is no magic or error in my reading skills, though looking into my crystal ball I see that he is not the first and predict not the last student to have arrived at the institution and asked the same question.  School Cmdt, having been previously designated can sign off on the special leave.  Regards, Dan.


----------



## McG (25 Jan 2011)

cdnleaf said:
			
		

> ... for right or wrong their (the school and his Unit COC) response will be similar to my post.


The school response may match yours, in which case it would be wrong.  If the school response to a greivance did match your's, then the member would have the option to seek redress from the CDS.  I have seen enough of how that systems works and of the applicable policies to this members circumstances to conclude that his grievance would very likely be supported.


----------



## Cdnleaf (25 Jan 2011)

MCG said:
			
		

> The school response may match yours, in which case it would be wrong.  If the school response to a greivance did match your's, then the member would have the option to seek redress from the CDS.  I have seen enough of how that systems works and of the applicable policies to this members circumstances to conclude that his grievance would very likely be supported.



I agree in principle with your observation, supported yes - changing anything other than perhaps rewording the existing policy - no. 

My recommendation to Moxo is to focus on completing his tech course then redress the policy after.  Ask for an AO from his unit to assist with the process.  Equally enjoy the leave and not caught up in this issue, then take it back to the school; who are his chain of command.  All the best, Dan.


----------



## REDinstaller (25 Jan 2011)

It's very hard to reinstate accrued/accumulated leave once it's gone. Use the appropriate refs first.


----------



## meni0n (25 Jan 2011)

cdnleaf said:
			
		

> I agree in principle with your observation, supported yes - changing anything other than perhaps rewording the existing policy - no.
> 
> My recommendation to Moxo is to focus on completing his tech course then redress the policy after.  Ask for an AO from his unit to assist with the process.  Equally enjoy the leave and not caught up in this issue, then take it back to the school; who are his chain of command.  All the best, Dan.



Not the best advice as his course is 18 months and there is a 6 month time limit to file a grievance.


----------



## Occam (25 Jan 2011)

Moxo, if you're in Halifax, the BOR should be able to provide guidance on this, as I'm sure they've come across it before.  If you're in Esquimalt, they should be able to do the same.  

I'll call up a winger of mine tomorrow in Esquimalt to tap his knowledge on the subject.  He's the CPO1 at the BOR.   ;D

In numerous years as both as a student and as staff at a school where semestered courses are taught to CF members, I have never once heard of someone being forced to exhaust accumulated leave in order to be granted special leave for a semester break.  Annual is a whole 'nother ball of wax as it is very clear that it must be exhausted by the end of the annual leave year.


----------



## clericalchronicals (29 Jan 2011)

G'Day All,

Just want to throw some light on the policies for you all just so everyone is on the same page.  Special Leave when applied to students tends to get itself mixed up, leading to a whole ton of confusion at the other end.  Being a ULO Administrator, i've had plenty of time to beat my head off my desk for all of these leave types, and here is the "official" description for the different types of leave;

1) Special Leave - Academic Advancement:  This leave applies for serving members who are taking education on their own time, and has professional advancement potential.

2) Special Leave - Military Courses:  This applies to all students currently attending military educational institutions (ie. CFNES, CFNOS, CFSAL).

3) Special Leave - Education: This applies only to those personnel who are enrolled in a Canadian University or College in an approved education program controlled by a Subsidized Education Manager.

In this case, this young chap seems to be under #2.  As such, his Accumulated Leave cannot be ordered used:

Application:  *Special Leave (Military Courses) applies to Regular Force or Reserve Force members on Class “B” or "C" reserve service who are in full time attendance on military courses* or in full time attendance at educational institutions 
including Canadian or international Military Colleges.

Not sure exactly where you are going to school right now, but from the sounds of it, probably the E TECH QL5 or the MAR ENG TECH QL5, regardless, if this applies to you, there should be no redress required, your accumulated leave is not an option for the school.  Period.

Cheers!


----------



## OldSolduer (29 Jan 2011)

Moxo said:
			
		

> I am a LS and find myself in situation that just doesn't seem right. I am on a course which will break for 2 weeks in February. I have been told that i will have to use my accumulated leave in combination with my remaining annual leave to take that time off. Also that i could not come in to work for those 10 days. Meaning that i cannot just burn my 3 remaining annual and keep my 7 previously accumulated leave. The real kicker is that everyone with no leave will be granted 10 days special leave. My question is can they do this. Is there a reference that clearly states whether or not this is allowed to happen.
> 
> On another note. I went to the pay office today and tried to sell my 7 accumulated days, but was told that that can only be done if the CDS authorizes this via a forces wide order. any clarification / references that could help me would be appreciated.


I have a question:

Who can authorize this much special leave...10 Days seems a tad much.


----------



## JesseWZ (29 Jan 2011)

The 1.2 candidates at the Infantry School got 10 days Special, but rumor has it it went up to Comd LFDTS for the authorization.


----------



## ModlrMike (29 Jan 2011)

I have to think that if your course mates are getting 10 days Special, then so should you. Anything else fails the fairness test. One of the  cornerstones of a redress of grievance is to show how you're being, or have been, treated differently. I would submit that being forced to expend leave when others are getting it gratis should qualify.


----------



## Occam (29 Jan 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I have a question:
> 
> Who can authorize this much special leave...10 Days seems a tad much.



From the leave manual:

_The OCC or the Commandant of a Canadian Military College may grant up to 14 consecutive calendar days Special Leave (Military Courses) to a student who is under instruction or awaiting a course of instruction._

If I recall correctly, the CMS delegates to the Commandant of CFNES and CFNOS.


----------



## clericalchronicals (29 Jan 2011)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I have to think that if your course mates are getting 10 days Special, then so should you. Anything else fails the fairness test. One of the  cornerstones of a redress of grievance is to show how you're being, or have been, treated differently. I would submit that being forced to expend leave when others are getting it gratis should qualify.



Good call, again from the ULO end of things, here is the way it works;

1) Military Schools - Students are directed on courses, and generally on the posting message it will state "Members are to report to this unit with ___ days of leave remaining in the current fiscal year."  Now, as it goes, and here is the clerk in me coming out, some members have 4 days of leave left, some have 14.  Well, the fairness test comes down to a statement of equal entitlements: Pte Bloggins gets 10 days leave, Pte Able gets 10 days leave.  The method of leave expenditure is irrelevant.  The purpose of this class of special leave is to allow all members to take the same period of leave.  Example below;

Pte Bloggins reports on course with 10 days annual leave remaining and Pte Able reports with 4 days remaining.  Students are given a two-week summer block leave period, Pte Bloggins is required to expend his 10 days Annual for the period.  Pte Able on the other hand expends his 4 days Annual and 6 days Special-Military Courses.

Regardless, the policy is clear, all CF members will have a zero balance of Annual Leave by 31 Mar.

2) University Students - Because of the various and usually lengthy amount of "time-off" students get from school, this policy exists.  OCdt Bloggins has 20 days Annual leave, throughout the year, the OCdt has expended all 20 days Annual following his summer work term.  Christmas rolls around, and OCdt Bloggins is granted 4 days Special - Education in order to allow him to enjoy Christmas vacation like everyone else does.

As you can all gather, the fairness comes from the entitlement, not the method in which it is achieved.  That being said, Accumulated leave is a touchy subject relevant to University or College students only.  Example below;

OCdt Bloggins has 20 days Annual and 15 days Accumulated (presuming the member was unable to expend all Annual the year before).  The OCdt burns their 20 Annual during the summer break, and burns 4 days Accumulated for Christmas.  Again, the entitlement to Special in this case is to assist those who have insufficient leave to enjoy the same breaks as everyone else.

Cheers!


----------



## PuckChaser (29 Jan 2011)

I really disagree with you on the fairness test. Pte Able would be getting 26 days of leave (20 Annual + 4 special) given to him, where Pte Bloggins would only be getting his entitlement of 20. How is that fair? You don't know the situation that preceded the member heading on course. They could have be operational and not have had the time to burn the leave, or gotten the JIs late and again couldn't burn the time off. If Mbr A is getting 10 Special for his course, Mbr B should be getting the same, regardless of what Annual they showed up with. If they can't burn the leave before 31 March, we have a system in place to let them accumulate it.


----------



## Strike (29 Jan 2011)

PuckChaser,

I agree with you to some extent.  Member B should only be getting the same amount of special if, for operational reasons, he couldn't show up to course with the same amount of annual as everyone else.  That proof would have to come from his supervisor.


----------



## ModlrMike (30 Jan 2011)

Further to my last... I think having to burn unused annual is OK. I have a tough time with him having to use accumulated.


----------



## gcclarke (30 Jan 2011)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Further to my last... I think having to burn unused annual is OK. I have a tough time with him having to use accumulated.



Agreed wholeheartedly. I'm unsure whether or not an order to use up accumulated leave prior to being granted special would be considered a legal order or not, but I sure as hell know I would not issue such an order were I given a choice in the matter.


----------



## McG (30 Jan 2011)

JesseWZ said:
			
		

> The 1.2 candidates at the Infantry School got 10 days Special, but rumor has it it went up to Comd LFDTS for the authorization.


That is fact.  The Comd LFDTS signed-off on a great big list of every student at a CTC school who required Special Leave (Military Course) in order to make it through the holidays.  Unfortunately for a few individuals, Special Leave (Military Course) must be taken on consecutive days and so a very small number of CTC students had to return to the schools even ahead of most staff.


----------



## Strike (30 Jan 2011)

MCG, regarding your comment on delegated auth for the signing off of Special (Military Courses), the head of DPALC also has ben given authority for this.  Either that or my leave was given to me illegally.   ;D


----------



## Moxo (30 Jan 2011)

Thank you all for your input. The situation still hasn't been resolved. I have been pushing the issue and am going to request to sell my accumulated leave. The staff is still insisting that we can be forced to take accumulated leave. I have asked to see where that rule is written and am still waiting. Others on my course are going to wait it out and try to keep theirs.  I will be sure to let everyone know how it turns out in the end. Which should be soon Feb 14 is when the leave period begins. 

Someone posted a comment about annual having to be used by march 31st. I have no issues with this I will be using 3 days of annual and hopefully getting 7 days special.


----------



## Occam (30 Jan 2011)

Moxo said:
			
		

> I have been pushing the issue and am going to request to sell my accumulated leave.



Why not hold on to it?  It's a hell of a lot more valuable to you as a CPO1 than it is as a killick.  Unless you really, really need the money now (or the time off), bank it for a rainy day 20 years from now when it's much, much more valuable...


----------



## Pat in Halifax (31 Jan 2011)

Moxo said:
			
		

> Thank you all for your input. The situation still hasn't been resolved. I have been pushing the issue and am going to request to sell my accumulated leave. The staff is still insisting that we can be forced to take accumulated leave. I have asked to see where that rule is written and am still waiting. Others on my course are going to wait it out and try to keep theirs.  I will be sure to let everyone know how it turns out in the end. Which should be soon Feb 14 is when the leave period begins.
> 
> Someone posted a comment about annual having to be used by march 31st. I have no issues with this I will be using 3 days of annual and hopefully getting 7 days special.


Currently, the School(s) are NOT accepting leave passes until this is clarified through some sort of direction. No one at the School supports the requirement to utilize Accumulated/Accrued leave for this and I cannot seem to find out where this direction came from. All that said, when my "little birdie" gets back to me, I will let you know either on here or by PM.
Be patient!


----------



## clericalchronicals (3 Feb 2011)

Any further news on this one yet???


----------



## Pat in Halifax (4 Feb 2011)

I'll phone my 'little birdie' this morning. Actually, truth be told, he is a big ugly PO1 Stoker!


----------



## CountDC (7 Feb 2011)

Real interesting case.  Can't wait to see the result.  From what is known at the moment the redress  would get full support on this end as we do not find anything stating the member can be made to use his accumulated/accrued leave.

Keep us posted.

Cheers


----------



## Pat in Halifax (7 Feb 2011)

The latest (from MSE Div anyway) is:
*"A Student from MSE Div was told by the Reg Office that No Accrued leave can be forced to be taken.  Annual will be taken over the 2 week school shutdown.

This is most likely the individual that has been asking questions."*

Unfortunately, he didn't tell me more about individuals who haven't enough annual to take them over the break. I know in the past (including over Christmas holidays), if students/staff didn't have enough leave, they were 'put to work' somewhere on the Base.
I think this got a little blown out of proportion somewhere along the way and I can't imagine with whom. This whole Break was to tie into the modified School Break so people could accompany their families and volunteer/observe the Canada Winter Games. When the idea was first broached well over a year ago at a HoDs and ChoDs, there were a few groans in the room because a few of us knew something like this may happen. 

Bottom line-This appears to be a dead issue.
Moxo, if you are told anything different, don't hesitate to PM me.


----------

