# DEU Blames "WW2 Hangover" for Lack of Support for AFG Fight



## The Bread Guy (17 Feb 2008)

Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act.

*Germans plead Second World War hangover*
Gethin Chamberlain, The Observer (UK), 16 Feb 08
Article link

*Germany's role in the Second World War has made it difficult to win public support for military action in Afghanistan, the German ambassador to Britain has admitted.

Wolfgang Ischinger said Germans had so often been told that their military had done "many awful things" it was hard to persuade them they should get involved in another conflict.*

Germany is under pressure from the US, Britain and Canada to send more troops to reinforce the Nato mission in the south of Afghanistan, where the fighting against the Taliban is at its fiercest. Canada is demanding that other Nato members provide another 1,000 troops in the south if it is to remain in Afghanistan next year.

But describing criticism as "quite irresponsible", Mr Ischinger said that Germany had done more to help Afghanistan than any other European nation, including Britain. "In terms of financial assistance, civilian aid, military commitments, we would probably be the number one country," he told The Sunday Telegraph.

"The UK has been the number one European military contributor for the last period but… as recently as 2004 the German contingent was bigger."

Germany is considering boosting troop numbers by 1,000 to about 4,500, but Mr Ischinger ruled out moving them from the more peaceful north.

*He said politicians had to win over a post-war generation. "You have never been in the situation, certainly not in the last century, where you thought that the military had no role at all abroad, but that was the consensus in Germany as recently as 12 or 13 years ago.

"It is only very recently that we participated in more direct peacekeeping, and more recently still in actual combat operations. We have come a long way."*

Germany is not alone in attracting criticism over Afghanistan. While the US has 15,000 troops attached to the Nato mission and Britain has 7,800, other nations maintain only a token presence. Georgia has one soldier, while Switzerland and Singapore have sent two each. Austria has three, Ireland seven and Luxembourg nine.

France is still considering whether to send another 1,000 troops on top of the 1,515 already there, with a decision expected before a Nato summit in April.

The latest row began when Robert Gates, the US defence secretary, sent what was described as an "unusually stern" letter to his German counterpart, describing Berlin's performance as "disappointing" and asking it to replace a 2,200-strong US unit which is being withdrawn from the south this autumn.

Writing in The Sunday Telegraph last week, David Miliband, the Foreign Secretary, urged other nations to commit troops to Afghanistan. "There is the responsibility to ensure the scale of our efforts matches the severity of the challenge," he said.


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## KevinB (17 Feb 2008)

hangover --- whata  bunch of weasles.

 Even when on the worlds best infidel6 bender (which are really truly world class, as several here can attest to) I may suffer for 2 days like a dying dog -- its a pisspoor analogy - as they have had over 60 years to get over it and join the rest of the fricken planet.


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## Flip (17 Feb 2008)

I suspect Germans have to change their mindset away from an
,external use of the military is wrong, to a what they did with their military
was wrong.  

That is, it's easier for Germans to blame the military, than to accept what the German people of the day supported was the problem.

In fact I can't think of a time when the German army have ever been on the "right"
side of a war. With that historical track record I can see where Germans might be a little wary.  On the other hand If they don't step up in Afghanistan they'd be "wrong again".

I have a close friend who is German.  And she's surprized Germany even has
 an army. Such is the world view of Germans......

Am I being dense or does that describe the problem?


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## daftandbarmy (17 Feb 2008)

Flip said:
			
		

> In fact I can't think of a time when the German army have ever been on the "right"
> side of a war.



That would be Waterloo, 1815, I think.


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## Flip (18 Feb 2008)

In a sense I think you're right.


> That would be Waterloo, 1815, I think.



But, I'm not sure it's fair to credit Germans for what the Prussians did.
Maybe if the Prussians ran things in Germany we'd have an ally.... ;D


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## Teddy Ruxpin (18 Feb 2008)

> But describing criticism as "quite irresponsible", Mr Ischinger said that Germany had done more to help Afghanistan than any other European nation, including Britain. "In terms of financial assistance, civilian aid, *military commitments*, we would probably be the number one country," he told The Sunday Telegraph.




 :rofl:

God, where to begin?  17 German-run bars on Camp Warehouse for a start?


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## FascistLibertarian (18 Feb 2008)

After ww2 Germans generally took the view that war was wrong in general.
If you ever get the chance go to a German ww2 cemetery.
I went to one in France.
It was all about how bad and awful war was.
If you didnt know that the Nazi scum started the war of agression when you went in, well you wouldnt know when you came out.
All the nations involved in ww2 took away different 'lessons'. I think this article makes a good and valid point.
I doubt people here remember how neurotic the Germans were about the Iraqi children during the first Gulf War (with thousands trying to adopt).

Still it was more tasteful than Normandy American Cemetery and Memorial, that was so gaudy and tasteless it was almost offensive, if I was an American I would be ashamed.


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## ModlrMike (18 Feb 2008)

The Germans can only seek refuge in this excuse for so long. They've been deployed on international ops for some time now, and need to take a good hard look at the issue of combat operations in Afghanistan in the context of their own security. Perhaps there's an unwillingness to increase their role because of a possible domestic threat. Germany is second only to Holland for their population of expatriate Muslims as a percent of the total populace [1]. We've seen what's happened in other European countries when the secular governments have different views than their radical imams and mullahs.

[1]  European Muslim Population


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## IanAlexander (18 Feb 2008)

I just received this in an e-mail yesterday. It is a book review but it talks about the German attitude towards war up until the end of WW2. Provides a little insight into their current attitude.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/014/713otfat.asp

Shared in accordance with the fair dealing provisions of the Copyright Act.


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## time expired (18 Feb 2008)

Fascist Libertarian,you again,pray tell what is tasteless about the
American cemetery?, apart from the fact the it offends your
anti American mindset,that you have demonstrated on other threads.
Put something in your profile for Gods sake,at least your age.


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## geo (18 Feb 2008)

I can appreceate the point that the german people, as a whole, have a problem with the concept of war HOWEVER, there is a difference between starting one OR joining with your allies so as to put it to rest.

Ask the germans what they thought of our troops being stationed in WEST Germany throughout the 40s, 50s, 60, 70s and 80s when there was a real threat of being overrun by the Soviets & their EAST German stooges....... They were real happy to have us as allies back then - weren't they....  

To be quite honest.... is it a case of the German people having a problem with involvment in Afghanistan OR is it the Gov't reading what they want to read.....  ALSO, I should point out that the people of those countries operating in Southern Afghanistan (US, UK, Can, Holland & Denmark) are all concerned about the combat mission _ and given a choice, would propose that we leave it to someone else.


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## FascistLibertarian (18 Feb 2008)

I feel that a cemetery should be a place of somber reflection and mourning. It was very emotional for me to go to Bény-sur-Mer and Bretteville-sur-Laize. To see thousands of Canadians who had come far from their homes to die in a foreign country.

The American cemetery is like a celebration. Its not just that feels twice as big as the German cemetery I went to despite having half as many people buried there.
They have a massive map showing the movement of the Allied armies out of Normandy into Germany, they have a giant status dedicated to victory, not to mention how much it must cost for landscaping.
The whole thing I found to be tasteless, gaudy and tacky. I would have no problem if they had all these things at another location, but using a cemetery to celebrate kicked the shit out of the Germans and winning the war YEHAW, well most people will disgaree with me I suppose but I dont think that should have been the focus.
It didn’t seem to me to be so much about mourning the dead as about celebrating the glorious victory.

I did like the marble Crosses and Stars of David, they were/are doubtlessly very expensive but created a very nice effect (and i think it was these that made the cemetery seem huge). 

I thought that the Canadian cemeteries were the best out of every one I went to.
Much lower key than the American one, individual sentences on the graves which the families decided on (some were even anti war).


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## time expired (18 Feb 2008)

GEO,one of the main problems in Germany at the present
time is the total lack of political leadership.No one in the 
present coalition government has the ability or the guts
to explain the reasons for an extended and more robust
engagement in A-stan,they are content to follow public
opinion which is formed by a German mass media that is
completely dominated left leaning,socialist,pacifist ideas.
This of course disallows any real discussion about the subject
any one who dare support the war or calls for more robust
engagement is vilified and the usual labels are used to shut
them up,I am sure you know how it works in a country
with a free press.
                     Regards


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## George Wallace (18 Feb 2008)

Not to make excuses, but Germany still hasn't sorted itself out completely for "Reunification".  A Western NATO member nation suddenly doubles in size and inherits the Warsaw Pacts Communist shock troops of East Germany and the notorious STAZI, and you expect them to operate on some semblance of normalicy in your eyes?  If their political system was tied up before Reunification, how do you expect it to miraculously have become discombobulated after?


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## geo (18 Feb 2008)

Ohh.... should work just about as well as a Conservative / Liberal / NDP / Bloc four way split.


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## vonGarvin (19 Feb 2008)

time expired said:
			
		

> GEO,one of the main problems in Germany at the present
> time is the total lack of political leadership.No one in the
> present coalition government has the ability or the guts
> to explain the reasons for an extended and more robust
> ...



As an aside to politics, in Canada there is a move afoot to amend our current system (one riding = one representative in the federal parliament) to one similar to that found in Germany (one person = two votes: one for the riding, one for the party).  I have argued continually against such a modification for some of the reasons you lay out above: gutless coalitions that are ineffective and inefficient, pandering to the minority member of the coalition in order to avoid elections.  
It's too bad, really.


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## George Wallace (19 Feb 2008)

Ah, yes.  The 'Center of the Universe' tried that during the last Provincial Election.


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## Phelan (20 Feb 2008)

I am German. I am not proud of the discussions we are having here (in Germany) about our efforts in Afgahnistan. 
WW2.. well for most of the Germans, even though we take responsibility, this is the past. It can't be used as an excuse not to help our allies when they are in danger and our troops are just a few hundred kilometers away. 
However, to understand the position of our government, there are some things you must know:
we still have a compulsory military service, for decades the only war we could think of was an all out war against the Warsaw Pact forces. This has just changed during my time in the army, when the first German out of area deployment started. 
The equipment back then (early 90's) was well... my gun was manufactured 1959, some of our trucks where about the same age. Having had no real use for our forces, we saved money as much as possible.. and of course the defense budget was the one cut most. The training.. well.. I spent 12 months there, ok, I was a pipeline engineer, but one should think even so a soldier should have fired more than 100 rounds in one year. 
Germany now has troops in Afghanistan, Kosovo, Lebanon some other countries. I think the Bundeswehr, even though they don't admit it, is doing the best it can. A professional army might be capable to do more and do it more efficiantly. However, and this brings me back to WW2 hangover, the one reason why we still cling to the compulsory military service is that the army must never be a state within the state again as it happened before WW1. 
Another reason (in my opinion the bigger one): Germans are still pretty pissed about how George W. Bush handled the Iraq affair. I know, I know, Afganistan is not the Iraq, however, Afghanistan is for most Germans also an American war. The neccessary war against a country that hosted terror camps has been tainted as the war against Iraq was also claimed to be a war against terror. 
Don't get me wrong, I am not defending Germanys decission not to send troops to the south.. just some more information what people here think and why our government reacts like it does.


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## Flip (20 Feb 2008)

Thanks for jumping in Phelan.

I have German relatives, but from before the war.

Your remark about GWB and Iraq is probably the most troubling
as it's a tough one to argue around.

Anyway, it's nice to get some perspective from you.


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