# Man killed by Winnipeg police was former Canadian Forces member: sources



## Nfld Sapper (19 Dec 2007)

Wonder how the MSM are going to spin this. Article Link

Man killed by Winnipeg police was former Canadian Forces member: sources

Last Updated: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 | 7:57 AM CT 

CBC News 

A man who was shot and killed by Winnipeg police late Monday night was a former member of the Canadian Forces, CBC News has learned. 

Sources confirmed to CBC News that Roy Thomas Bell, 42, was the man who confronted police officers as they responded to a 911 call about a man threatening residents at an apartment block in Winnipeg's West Broadway neighbourhood.

Police said the officers encountered the man just before 11 p.m. Monday and saw he was armed with a bat and a gun.

Officers shot the suspect with a Taser, which proved unsuccessful in subduing him, police said.

The threat escalated and the man was shot, police said. He was taken to hospital, where he succumbed to his injuries.

Investigators haven't released the man's name, but sources confirm it was Roy Bell.

The officers involved were not injured and have been placed on administrative leave.

The police homicide unit has taken over the investigation.  A provincial inquest will also be carried out, as required by Manitoba law.


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## medaid (19 Dec 2007)

Oh man... *groan* who cares if he was in the CF? HONESTLY... please... why don't I see people going after butchers who kill people? Or drunk drivers that are teachers... MSM takes things WAY out of proportion sometimes.


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## PMedMoe (19 Dec 2007)

Wonder how long it will be before the claim of "It was PTSD." kicks in?  :


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## George Wallace (19 Dec 2007)

A rather vague form of reporting the news.  Was he in the Infantry or some other Cbt Arms for period of ten or more years?  Did he do a Tour?  Was he only on BMQ for a few weeks and then quite because it was too hard?  Was he in the Cadets?  What was it CBC?


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## ModlrMike (19 Dec 2007)

Nice to see the salient facts reported on for a change.  :rage:


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## Sigs Pig (19 Dec 2007)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Wonder how long it will be before the claim of "It was PTSD." kicks in?  :



CBC Radio just mentioned it here in Wpg.


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## ModlrMike (19 Dec 2007)

Here's the same story as reported by CTV:

Article Link


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## Blakey (19 Dec 2007)

Update on CBC Site


> Last Updated: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 | 7:57 AM CT
> 
> Bell was actively seeking help to deal with depression and *post-traumatic stress disorder*, sources said.
> 
> Post-traumatic stress disorder, an anxiety disorder in which people feel intense, prolonged feelings of fright and distress for no clear reason, is caused by a traumatic event involving threatened death or serious injury to oneself.




http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2007/12/19/police-shooting.html


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## Nfld Sapper (19 Dec 2007)

Was waiting to see how long it would take for that to show up  :


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## Kat Stevens (19 Dec 2007)

Why wouldn't it?  It says he was actively seeking help, not flying off the handle and using PTSD as an excuse after the fact.  It is a relevant piece of info in this case.  Not every mention of PTSD in the media is a kick in the nuts to fire pissing bullet proof hard chargers such as yourself.


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## George Wallace (19 Dec 2007)

And is PDST solely brought on by Service in the CF or military, or can it be a result of some other trauma not at all military related?  This article really doesn't make any connection between the two, and is conspicuous in the absence of any other reference to the CF other than he was a 'former member of' (What Unit/Organization?).  

CTV did a more comprehensive piece, and made no mention at all about the CF.


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## Nfld Sapper (19 Dec 2007)

satan claws said:
			
		

> Why wouldn't it?  It says he was actively seeking help, not flying off the handle and using PTSD as an excuse after the fact.  It is a relevant piece of info in this case.  Not every mention of PTSD in the media is a kick in the nuts to fire pissing bullet proof hard chargers such as yourself.



I know that satan claws but was merly stating that I was waiting for the media to throw that into the piece. As George Wallace said CTV makes no mention of this. Could it be CBC is "fabricating" that info?

And from CKY Winnipeg



> MAN KILLED IN POLICE SHOOTING
> 
> Winnipeg police say an officer was forced to shoot and kill a man after a Taser that was initially deployed to subdue him failed to work properly. Officers went to an apartment on Langside Street around midnight Monday night to answer a call about a man who was allegedly threatening an acquaintance. Police say the officers were confronted by an armed man behind the block, and the Taser that one of the officers drew did not work they way it's supposed to. It's not clear whether the same officer who fired the stun gun also fired the service pistol, or whether both officers were involved.


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## armyvern (19 Dec 2007)

The NFLD Grinch said:
			
		

> Was waiting to see how long it would take for that to show up  :



Well,

He's dead now. So he *was * seeking that help before this incident. No defense lawyers using it here to get him unrightfully "off" the charge.

So what ... it's a FACT of the story. The guy WAS seeking help for PTSD when the incident occured ... what is the problem with the MSM reporting that fact?

You people kill me here. Every time they mention CF member you guys freak out about "why do they need to bring up the CF". Why? Because it's a fact in the history of the individual. Mentioning that fact is absolutely no different than mentioning the fact that:

Two "students" from Columbine, 
A "Postal worker" from Boston,
Two "Ex-marines" from Wilseyville,
A "part-time clown" from Chicago,
An "unemployed" man from Toronto,
A "Brewery worker" from Milwaukee,
A "Politician from Regina",

all killed people.
etc etc .... I'm sure you get the point.

So, the MSM is only supposed to NOT report on the history or occupations of these people if they aren't/weren't CF?? They do this ALL the time -- it's not like they're singling out the CF for favoured treatment.


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## George Wallace (19 Dec 2007)

SO?  What did the CF have to do with the story?  Other than "eye candy" to attract you to the story, where did it fit in?


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## Blackadder1916 (19 Dec 2007)

> ...CTV makes no mention of this. Could it be CBC is "fabricating" that info?



In comparing the two stories: the CBC provides other additional info that is not in the CTV piece; name and age, possible CF service, "according to sources (?)".  The CTV piece seems to only mention info provided by the police.  One analysis; CTV spoke to the police PIO and filed, CBC spoke to neighbours.


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## armyvern (19 Dec 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> SO?  What did the CF have to do with the story?  Other than "eye candy" to attract you to the story, where did it fit in?



So what did the fact that Colin Thatcher was a politician have to do with the story?

Why is it only offensive to mention the criminals backgrounds if they happen to have been CF?

I don't see everyone here jumping over news stories posted up here about murders/rapists/child molestors etc that happen to mention the criminals background or past jobs.

Read a couple of the active threads going on right now --- no one in those threads complaining about the mention of buddies job or background being mentioned in the story ... and his background or previous jobs have nothing to do with the crimes he committed either.

I just think it's hilarious how the MSM gets jumped on here -- only when they do this regarding a CF member, but no one says a peep when they do it about anyone else. It's ironic, that's all.

I rather think that out there in cyber-space somewhere is a "postal workers" forum ... that goes to hell in a handbasket every couple of months too when someone else goes 'postal' and the media reports the fact that it was a  .... postal worker.


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## George Wallace (19 Dec 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> So what did the fact that Colin Thatcher was a politician have to do with the story?



Apples and Oranges.  Colin Thatcher was a well know Public Figure.  Roy Thomas Bell was a nobody by comparison.  




			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Why is it only offensive to mention the criminals backgrounds if they happen to have been CF?



It isn't if the facts are backed up.  What CF Organization did this guy belong to and for how long.  Being a Cadet is a far cry from being a Cbt veteran.  A Recruit School Washout is a far cry from a Member Released after a long career.  What did this article state other than he was a former member of the CF?  So?  Was he a former of Cdn Tire also?



			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I don't see everyone here jumping over news stories posted up here about murders/rapists/child molestors etc that happen to mention the criminals background or past jobs.
> 
> Read a couple of the active threads going on right now --- no one in those threads complaining about the mention of buddies job or background being mentioned in the story ... and his background or previous jobs have nothing to do with the crimes he committed either.



Usually there is a little more detail in their backgrounds than "was a former member of such and such organization".



			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I just think it's hilarious how the MSM gets jumped on here -- only when they do this regarding a CF member, but no one says a peep when they do it about anyone else. It's ironic, that's all.



 ;D  At the same time......it is hilarious how the MSM jumps on us when we criticize them.  Truly ironic.   ;D


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## armyvern (19 Dec 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Apples and Oranges.  Colin Thatcher was a well know Public Figure.  Roy Thomas Bell was a nobody by comparison.
> 
> 
> It isn't if the facts are backed up.  What CF Organization did this guy belong to and for how long.  Being a Cadet is a far cry from being a Cbt veteran.  A Recruit School Washout is a far cry from a Member Released after a long career.  What did this article state other than he was a former member of the CF?  So?  Was he a former of Cdn Tire also?
> ...



George,

The bit about Colin Thatcher was meant to demonstrate that mentioning of the persons background/job is NORMAL ... regardless of whether the person is CF or not. Postal workers certainly aren't well-known public figures. It's not apples/oranges -- the MSM reports these facts of backgrounds and jobs for the whole fruit cocktail; it just doesn't matter what their job or background is -- the MSM always reports it.

There will be more background, I'm quite sure ...

Note the banner: "Breaking Story...." Looks like CBC is getting their info quicker than anyone else though ... tidbits come out as they are received, also quite normal with a "breaking news" story. This is no different than any other story ... and they aren't treating it any different than they would any other story. By 1600 ... CTV will also have the PTSD tidbit up, CBC just happened to beat them to the "scoop".


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## Blackadder1916 (19 Dec 2007)

More to this "breaking news" story.

Witnesses to police shooting describe 'suicide by cop'
http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=180330


> Bruce Owen, Winnipeg Free Press  Published: Tuesday, December 18, 2007
> 
> WINNIPEG -- A Winnipeg police officer shot and killed a man behind an apartment building late Monday night in an incident several residents were describing as "suicide-by-cop."
> 
> ...


More at link.


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## Blackhorse7 (19 Dec 2007)

I feel terrible both for Bell and for the Officers that needed to confront him.  If he was suffering from PTSD, it is saddening that the only way out he felt he was left with was to create a lethal force confrontation.  As for the Officers, I can imagine as both a former CF member and a current Police Officer that this must be weighing heavily on them.  No Officer goes to work wanting to shoot someone, and certainly they don't want to when they know it's a person pushing for "suicide by cop".

Rest easy, Bell.


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## Thompson_JM (19 Dec 2007)

Blackhorse7 said:
			
		

> I feel terrible both for Bell and for the Officers that needed to confront him.  If he was suffering from PTSD, it is saddening that the only way out he felt he was left with was to create a lethal force confrontation.  As for the Officers, I can imagine as both a former CF member and a current Police Officer that this must be weighing heavily on them.  No Officer goes to work wanting to shoot someone, and certainly they don't want to when they know it's a person pushing for "suicide by cop".
> 
> Rest easy, Bell.



+1

in time the whole truth will come out. 
if that is the case, it is saddening that he felt this was the only way out, and that he went through with it.
RIP Bell, and Peace be with the officers who had to go through this awful event as well....


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## SweetNavyJustice (19 Dec 2007)

To address George's comment 





> SO?  What did the CF have to do with the story?  Other than "eye candy" to attract you to the story, where did it fit in?



The CBC news story is stating that "... Bell had a long struggle with mental health issues following a training deployment overseas as part of his military service."

So the fact that he worked for the CF had him take part in the "training deployment oversease" (whatever the news thinks that is...), which resulted in his receiving a diagnosis of PTSD.  

His being in the CF is directly related.  

I agree with Vern that putting someones employer down is common place in the media.  It allows for a frame of reference whether relevant or not.  In this case, there is a direct link to his working for the CF and having PTSD, not that the two are mutually exclusive.


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## Michael OLeary (19 Dec 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> What CF Organization did this guy belong to and for how long.  Being a Cadet is a far cry from being a Cbt veteran.  A Recruit School Washout is a far cry from a Member Released after a long career.  What did this article state other than he was a former member of the CF?  So?  Was he a former of Cdn Tire also?
> 
> Usually there is a little more detail in their backgrounds than "was a former member of such and such organization".



To the masses of news consumers it doesn't matter one bit whether he was a "cadet" or a "commando"; it means little to them without detailed additional analysis.  The media is sharing what details it has, and will, hopefully, add to that when further information becomes available.  If every news story was withheld until "all" the facts were known and verified, we'd never get anything timely from the media.


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## Roy Harding (19 Dec 2007)

It's a recurring nightmare of mine that should I ever go off my nut and pull some heinous stunt (I'm not planning anything at the moment - but NEVER is a long time), the newspapers would scream "Airborne Commando Goes Wild", or "Former Member of Disgraced Airborne Regiment Does Something Stupid", or some such.

It would never occur to them that I was a freaking Adm Clk - hardly a "Commando".  The public would pick up on the Airborne thing, and that would be that - no matter what the rest of the article might say.

I would agree, however, that reporting what an individual's background might be DOES lend context to the story - and I don't think former members of the CF are necessarily singled out in this way.  The fact that most of us here are current or former members, or folks who take an interest in, the CF causes us to notice this tendency of the media when it is applied to current or former members who do something newsworthy.

People's background is normally reported in the media - whether that background is "truck driver", "unemployed mechanic", or "former member of the CF" - I don't think the media is "picking on us", at least in this context.

I share Blackhorse7's sentiments for both the unfortunate Police Officers and Mr. Bell - it was a tragedy for all involved.


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## Blakey (19 Dec 2007)

UPDATE


> Updated Wed. Dec. 19 2007 5:19 PM ET
> Capt. Carole Brown, a military spokeswoman in Ottawa, told The Canadian Press that Bell served in the Forces from 1981 through 2004, when he worked as a postal clerk.
> 
> Bell was "never deployed on operations overseas,'' Brown said, adding that "when he was released, he was at the rank of corporal.''
> ...


http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071218/police_shooting_071219/20071219?hub=Canada


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## GAP (19 Dec 2007)

There was a comment re: "postal" earlier.....hmmmm, maybe it's genetic...


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## Blakey (19 Dec 2007)

^ I don't think that comment was called for.


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## Roy Harding (19 Dec 2007)

Cataract Kid said:
			
		

> ^ I don't think that comment was called for.



Nevertheless - it was made.

Dark humour is a normal characteristic of "one who serves" - get used to it.


Roy


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## IN HOC SIGNO (19 Dec 2007)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> It's a recurring nightmare of mine that should I ever go off my nut and pull some heinous stunt (I'm not planning anything at the moment - but NEVER is a long time), the newspapers would scream "Airborne Commando Goes Wild", or "Former Member of Disgraced Airborne Regiment Does Something Stupid", or some such.
> 
> It would never occur to them that I was a freaking Adm Clk - hardly a "Commando".  The public would pick up on the Airborne thing, and that would be that - no matter what the rest of the article might say.
> 
> ...



Quite right Roy. I remember a few years ago a guy posted at Leitrim being court martialed and punted.....there was some Outlaw motorcycle activity and other nefarious dealings that brought this guys security clearance into jeopardy etc. the media painted that one as a "Decorated CF Veteran" Turns out he had a CD. Well I suppose technically he had a "decoration" but it's hardly the same as a VC or an MC hitting the skids is it?? The average joe public who watches way too much US television thinks a decoration means that the guy is a war hero of some kind.


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## George Wallace (19 Dec 2007)

SweetNavyJustice 

Hind sight is great.  Those facts were not included in the original report.  Perhaps someone realized or was getting flack as such produced earlier here and did some digging.  Now we find in another report, that he was a Postie and never deployed outside of Canada.  

I think that Roy has a good point, and that is what I am getting at.  I worked for Coca Cola before I joined the CF.  If this had been me, would they have gone back and said "Ex-Coca Cola Worker suffering PTDS......."?  No.  It seems that if at anytime a person was a member, worked for, or applied for the CF, in any way shape or form, that is what they home in on.  Here we have a Retired (for three years) member of the CF killed in a confrontation with the Police.  What was his current employment?  

My condolances to all involved, especially the officers involved.


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## PMedMoe (19 Dec 2007)

> Brown said Bell joined the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry in 1981 and *began working as a postal clerk 10 years later.* Throughout his career, Bell moved all over Canada, working at bases including Winnipeg, Shilo, Trenton, Calgary, Wainwright, and Esquimalt.



What did he do for the first 10 years he was in?


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## IN HOC SIGNO (19 Dec 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> SweetNavyJustice
> 
> Hind sight is great.  Those facts were not included in the original report.  Perhaps someone realized or was getting flack as such produced earlier here and did some digging.  Now we find in another report, that he was a Postie and never deployed outside of Canada.
> 
> ...


2

Yes but we all have to keep in mind that the media is a business. They sell their product by making it interesting. Ex Coca-cola employee is not interesting...ex CF member is. In the same way that ex Member of Parliament or ex member of the priesthood would be interesting....perhaps.


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## Roy Harding (19 Dec 2007)

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> 2
> 
> Yes but we all have to keep in mind that the media is a business. They sell their product by making it interesting. Ex Coca-cola employee is not interesting...ex CF member is. In the same way that ex Member of Parliament or ex member of the priesthood would be interesting....perhaps.



Planning to make headlines, Padre??

I'm sorry - I couldn't resist.

Your point is valid - and I agree with you.


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## IN HOC SIGNO (19 Dec 2007)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> Planning to make headlines, Padre??
> 
> I'm sorry - I couldn't resist.
> 
> Your point is valid - and I agree with you.



Ha ha...not if I can help it. Pretty boring story I'm afraid....wouldn't sell a lot of papers for them*......"Chocaholic CF Padre Loses TV Remote and Misses CSI!" * That's about my life in a nutshell!


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## Pte.Butt (19 Dec 2007)

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2007/12/19/police-shooting.html



> A man who was shot and killed by Winnipeg police on Monday was a former member of the Canadian Forces who suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder.



http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071218/police_shooting_071219/20071219?hub=Canada



> Bell was "never deployed on operations overseas,'' Brown said




I am no doctor, but working as a military postal worker, and never deployed over seas, just dose not equate to Post traumatic stress disorder.  
I call bullcrap on CBC, just another blow at the military, remember we are the big bad military in the eyes of the media. Mothers, I hope you have hid your daughters!.  :


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## blacktriangle (19 Dec 2007)

He went postal.


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## Nfld Sapper (19 Dec 2007)

Pte. Butt take into account that he didn't start out as a Postal Clerk.



> Brown said Bell joined the* Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry in 1981 and began working as a postal clerk 10 years later*. Throughout his career, Bell moved all over Canada, working at bases including Winnipeg, Shilo, Trenton, Calgary, Wainwright, and Esquimalt


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## Pte.Butt (19 Dec 2007)

popnfresh said:
			
		

> He went postal.



Even if he was infantry before-hand, never being deployed outside Canada, in most cases the military would not be the cause for PTSD. Now whatever has happened on Civi-side could be a whole different story.


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## Pte.Butt (19 Dec 2007)

The NFLD Grinch said:
			
		

> Pte. Butt take into account that he didn't start out as a Postal Clerk.




Ahh yes, this is true. I read it, just decided to not include it my initial post. my apologies.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (19 Dec 2007)

Pte.Butt said:
			
		

> I am no doctor, but working as a military postal worker, and never deployed over seas, just dose not equate to Post traumatic stress disorder.



Umm, I don't believe military events are a prerequisite for PTSD.......


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## Nfld Sapper (19 Dec 2007)

Keep learning my young jedi.  ;D


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## Pte.Butt (19 Dec 2007)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Umm, I don't believe military events are a prerequisite for PTSD.......



Yes I am aware of this, but judging by the article there seem to be finger pointing at the military, for being the cause of this man's case of PTSD.


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## Nfld Sapper (19 Dec 2007)

Hey Bruce maybe he got it from here:



> In 1984 the 2nd Battalion PPCLI returned to Germany in a European operational role for the first time since 1970. The unit operating from Baden-Baden was part of the Central Army Group and the 4th Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group from 1984 to 1988.



Ref: PPCLI History


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## X-mo-1979 (19 Dec 2007)

Why did the reporters make sure his military service made it into the story?RELEVANCE.
Violence.We train in it everyday in some form or another.And when a ex member who has been trained to remove peoples existence from this earth dies by confrontation with law enforcement,there is relevance.

George Wallace used the example of not using his Coca-Cola history if a story was to be made of him.If your coca cola plant closed down just prior,I would guarantee it would make the headlines. "Mr Wallace was shot in face,fired at cops in a rage over losing his job.2000 others lost their job in the region." Relevance.

As for him being a super soldier etc,I say look around the boards here.Many not combat unit types always say "infantry first trade second."
Or "I topped my recce patrols on JLC and I'm a cook."We tend to blend the lines between units/trades etc.So how the heck is the MSM suppose to understand.


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## Roy Harding (19 Dec 2007)

Pte.Butt said:
			
		

> http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2007/12/19/police-shooting.html
> 
> http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071218/police_shooting_071219/20071219?hub=Canada
> 
> ...




Based upon the media reports, you have no idea what he may or may not have done "overseas".

I was a "support trade" and yet somehow I managed to stuff children's body parts into plastic bags whilst deployed.  And yes, I do have the occasional nightmare - _even_ as a "non-combatant".  (We can get into the falseness of your premise regarding "non-combatants" later, if you wish).

Suck back - reload.

I don't know what Mr. Bell's background was - nor do I care - he tragically caused a couple of LEOs to fire on him - not a pretty picture; and my immediate thoughts are with those Officers - and there's a secret part of my soul which grieves for Mr. Bell - I didn't know him - but I know others LIKE him.


Roy


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## George Wallace (19 Dec 2007)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> George Wallace used the example of not using his Coca-Cola history if a story was to be made of him.If your coca cola plant closed down just prior,I would guarantee it would make the headlines. "Mr Wallace was shot in face,fired at cops in a rage over losing his job.2000 others lost their job in the region." Relevance.



I think you missed the point there.  Coca Cola was a previous job, just as the CF was a previous occupation for Mr Bell.  No one is going to mention that I was a Coca Cola worker, if I am currently employed elsewhere.  Mr. Bell left the CF in 2004.  It is nearly four years later, what is his current occupation?


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## Pte.Butt (19 Dec 2007)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> Based upon the media reports, you have no idea what he may or may not have done "overseas".
> 
> I was a "support trade" and yet somehow I managed to stuff children's body parts into plastic bags whilst deployed.  And yes, I do have the occasional nightmare - _even_ as a "non-combatant".  (We can get into the falseness of your premise regarding "non-combatants" later, if you wish).
> 
> ...



Well, why you are very right, but the point I am arguing, is that he was NEVER over seas, or at least thats what the report says. So never being over seas, would leave one to believe that if he did indeed have PTSD, it's likely from another event/experience and probably has nothing to do with the military. I would assume that it is still possible to acquire PTSD within the military, without being deployed, however I think it is unlikely to happen.


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## Pte.Butt (19 Dec 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I think you missed the point there.  Coca Cola was a previous job, just as the CF was a previous occupation for Mr Bell.  No one is going to mention that I was a Coca Cola worker, if I am currently employed elsewhere.  Mr. Bell left the CF in 2004.  It is nearly four years later, what is his current occupation?



It would leave one to think, that Mr.Bell being in the military is completely irrelevant to this incident, and it is just a cheap shot at the military.


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## Fishbone Jones (19 Dec 2007)

Pte.Butt said:
			
		

> Well, why you are very right, but the point I am arguing, is that he was NEVER over seas, or at least thats what the report says. So never being over seas, would leave one to believe that if he did indeed have PTSD, it's likely from another event/experience and probably has nothing to do with the military. *I would assume that it is still possible to acquire PTSD within the military, without being deployed, however I think it is unlikely to happen.*



Then I would suggest you be quiet for awhile and read up on the subject, before you get your ass handed to you.


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## Nfld Sapper (19 Dec 2007)

Remember Pte.Butt this places has eyes on you.


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## ModlrMike (19 Dec 2007)

Pte.Butt said:
			
		

> Well, why you are very right, but the point I am arguing, is that he was NEVER over seas, or at least thats what the report says. So never being over seas, would leave one to believe that if he did indeed have PTSD, it's likely from another event/experience and probably has nothing to do with the military. I would assume that it is still possible to acquire PTSD within the military, without being deployed, however I think it is unlikely to happen.



It's actually quite likely to happen. We spend much more of our careers in Canada than we do overseas. I'm not trying to be rude, but I think it's time for some mine tape.


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## deedster (19 Dec 2007)

+1 Roy

And I have to say, as a civilian frequenting these forums (and a CF supporter to the n'th degree) that, although it may seem to some here that the media's reporting doesn't always put a positive  spin on whatever happens regarding our troops (or ex-members) there is also a lot of positive stuff going on.  Heck, everytime there's a commercial on Global TV tonight I'm watching CF members, both here and overseas, sending messages to their families and the rest of Canada.  I'd say that's positive.  

I think I'm probably out of my lane...

I think what happened in Winnipeg was terrible, no matter what Mr. Bell's previous work experience & medical condition was.


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## Roy Harding (19 Dec 2007)

Pte.Butt said:
			
		

> Well, why you are very right, but the point I am arguing, is that he was NEVER over seas, or at least thats what the report says. So never being over seas, would leave one to believe that if he did indeed have PTSD, it's likely from another event/experience and probably has nothing to do with the military. I would assume that it is still possible to acquire PTSD within the military, without being deployed, however I think it is unlikely to happen.



We're done, Son.

You don't have the slightest understanding of what PTSD is, or what its'  ramifications may be.  And yet,  somehow you feel entitled to an opinion - which, to be fair, you ARE entitled to - but in your case it is an UNIFORMED opinion.

I don't know that Mr. Bell was suffering from PTSD - but I still feel sorrow for what he, AND the peace officers involved were put through.

You're being DELIBERATELY obtuse - and you don't have the background which would give me a reason to give you a break.


Roy


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## X-mo-1979 (19 Dec 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I think you missed the point there.  Coca Cola was a previous job, just as the CF was a previous occupation for Mr Bell.  No one is going to mention that I was a Coca Cola worker, if I am currently employed elsewhere.  Mr. Bell left the CF in 2004.  It is nearly four years later, what is his current occupation?




Yes but if its a violent act they are defiantly going to mention your past military training.We train to kill,therefore its fairly relevant.Even if he worked at 7-11 for the past few years he was still a trained soldier.
I don't find this a cheap shot at all towards the military/CF.He was a ex soldier.
Infact I find it a good article.The writer managed to not only cover a tragic scene but put a few thoughts for discussion/reflection on things like ex-trained killer,PTSD,is the army caring for its vets..the list goes on and on.

I think this writer did his job.


----------



## George Wallace (19 Dec 2007)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Infact I find it a good article.The writer managed to not only cover a tragic scene but put a few thoughts for discussion/reflection on things like ex-trained killer,PTSD,is the army caring for its vets..the list goes on and on.
> 
> I think this writer did his job.



Speculation and conjecture.  That is what you call good Journalism?  I would hesitated to put into print what my speculation and conjecture is at this very moment.


----------



## TN2IC (19 Dec 2007)

Pte.Butt said:
			
		

> I would assume that it is still possible to acquire PTSD within the military, without being deployed, however I think it is unlikely to happen.



You don't think things tragic happen on base? What about a bloody vehicle collision down a high way? May factors to think about. 

PTSD stands for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. So pick it apart and understand the full meaning of it. 

But please note, I'm not a SME in mental health. It just my opinion on it.

Regards,
Knecht Ruprecht


----------



## SweetNavyJustice (19 Dec 2007)

> I think you missed the point there.  Coca Cola was a previous job, just as the CF was a previous occupation for Mr Bell.  No one is going to mention that I was a Coca Cola worker, if I am currently employed elsewhere.  Mr. Bell left the CF in 2004.  It is nearly four years later, what is his current occupation?



I'm still not agreeing with you on this George (not that you're asking me to).  

At least from what is being written, they are attributing his PTSD to his experiences in the CF.  His suffering this psychosis resulted in his causing the situation where the civilian police were forced to kill him.  

Ergo, his being in the CF is tied to his PTSD (through whatever means) which resulted in the incident that lead to his death.  His previous job in the CF seems quite relevant.  

To use your example of previous work at the Coca Cola plant, if you had worked at the plant and were traumatized due to some incident directly related to Coke, then it would likely be part of the news story.  

The news media will always post someone's job as a frame of reference because no one cares who "joe" is.  "Joe" who worked for "X" has meaning, especially when there is an apparent link in the incident.  

As for Pvt Butt.  You really do need to read a little on PTSD to have a clue as to what you're talking about.  Best first reference is the DSM-IV-TR (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Psychological Disorders).  See what it takes to have a diagnosis and then gain an understanding of what incidents will cause this event.


----------



## Pte.Butt (19 Dec 2007)

SweetNavyJustice said:
			
		

> I'm still not agreeing with you on this George (not that you're asking me to).
> 
> At least from what is being written, they are attributing his PTSD to his experiences in the CF.  His suffering this psychosis resulted in his causing the situation where the civilian police were forced to kill him.
> 
> ...



I am doing so right now. I realize I am out of my lane on this one, and I apologize. I will read up on this, and if I feel I have a better understanding of the topic at hand, and I have something to contribute, I may return to this thread.


----------



## armyvern (19 Dec 2007)

Pte.Butt said:
			
		

> http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2007/12/19/police-shooting.html
> 
> http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071218/police_shooting_071219/20071219?hub=Canada
> 
> ...



All right. Enough already.

I KNOW someone who suffers from PTSD who NEVER deployed overseas ... but was involved in recovery efforts of Swiss Air 111. Do YOU honestly think that only service overseas can cause PTSD? If so, you've got to attend some more briefings I'm afraid. I know another who witnessed a fellow soldier killed in a roll-over while trg here in Canada, but was helpless to assist.

The guy was PPCLI for the first 10 years of his career as the article relates -- who said anything about his PTSD being related or contributory due to his time as a postal clerk? Or even that his PTSD was caused by his Military service ... perhaps he had been on the scene of a major car accident etc. 

Perhaps we should hide you and your ill-informed and ill-advised comments for a bit?

The story is young ... the full facts will come out eventually. Be very careful what you choose to paint with your brush.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (19 Dec 2007)

Pte.Butt said:
			
		

> I am doing so right now. I realize I am out of my lane on this one, and I apologize. I will read up on this, and if I feel I have a better understanding of the topic at hand, and I have something to contribute, I may return to this thread.



Thank you. It's refreshing to find a young neophyte here, that understands when they are over their head, admit it, take the advice and attempt to better themselves for it. Not take umbridge and turn the whole thread into a shitfest. Too bad more didn't follow your example.

Now, back to the thread.


----------



## Blakey (19 Dec 2007)

More Updates:

http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=184101


> Ex-soldier had pellet gun when shot by police: report
> *Taser used but ineffective in incident*
> 
> WINNIPEG -- A man shot to death by Winnipeg police this week spent two decades with the Canadian military, but was discharged in 2004 because of *anger management issues*, the Winnipeg Free Press learned Wednesday.
> ...


Emphasis mine.
Ironic, a few weeks ago people were up in arms because of tasers, here it seems, that it (the taser) wasn't up to the task (for whatever reasons)

EDIT: To add photo.


----------



## X-mo-1979 (19 Dec 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Speculation and conjecture.  That is what you call good Journalism?



No.Humans do that for themselves,as this website does quite often.The journalist wrote the facts plain and simple.
Ex soldier PTSD-shot-killed.
I merely said the article is offering up quite a few topics for the reader to think about.

Perhaps I'm not communicating well,little tired.


----------



## zipperhead_cop (20 Dec 2007)

The NFLD Grinch said:
			
		

> Police said the officers encountered the man just before 11 p.m. Monday and saw he was armed with a bat and a gun.
> Officers shot the suspect with a Taser, which proved unsuccessful in subduing him, police said.
> The threat escalated and the man was shot, police said. He was taken to hospital, where he succumbed to his injuries.



I wonder if the taser will get blamed for his death?  
Suicide by cop is a drag for whoever has to go through it, but unfortunately we are a customer service oriented profession.  The customer got what he wanted.  It's unfortunate he couldn't have gotten it without putting some guys through a bunch of hell to get there.


----------



## retiredgrunt45 (20 Dec 2007)

Below are some causes of PTSD and there not all related to just military service. Any extremely tramatic experience(s) in someones life can leave them affected with the disorder.



> Traumatic experiences
> Main article: Psychological trauma
> Childhood physical, emotional, or sexual abuse, including prolonged or extreme neglect; also, witnessing such abuse inflicted on another child or an adult
> Experiences and interactions that are experienced as psychological "attacks"; for example a continual perception of psychological force, invalidation or annihilation.
> ...


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO (20 Dec 2007)

Pte.Butt said:
			
		

> Well, why you are very right, but the point I am arguing, is that he was NEVER over seas, or at least thats what the report says. So never being over seas, would leave one to believe that if he did indeed have PTSD, it's likely from another event/experience and probably has nothing to do with the military. I would assume that it is still possible to acquire PTSD within the military, without being deployed, however I think it is unlikely to happen.



You've obviously never talked to people who had to pick up body parts off the runway in Gander after the crash in the 80s or those who picked up body parts in the water or on the beach after Swiss Air. Be careful not to generalise....this job carries risk to health (mind and body) and limb whether you're in a theatre of war or doing domestic ops.


----------



## fraserdw (20 Dec 2007)

Interesting debate, we had one in the maritimes of a former naval officer with PTSD who cut the balls off of a kitten.  He was given a little sentence because of his Swiss Air induced PTSD.  His lawyer was the one who played the PTSD up even claiming the the Navy was more responsible for incident than the former naval officer.


----------



## Blakey (20 Dec 2007)

More updates to the story.
Obviously VA's fault, according to the wife and friend....
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20071220.SHOT20/TPStory/National


> Darlene Bell, his 31-year-old widow, blames her husband's death on the people at Veterans' Affairs who she says failed to get him the help he needed.



Was it stated somewhere that he was actually *diagnosed* with PTSD?, I haven't seen anything to the fact. I think the press are just drawing conclusions with what family and friends are saying.

EDIT:





> "He just couldn't take the pressure and the stress."


 I suspect I'll never know but, I would be curious to know what "pressure and stress" she is referring to?, of being released from the military, found not fit to deploy overseas, etc...


----------



## PMedMoe (20 Dec 2007)

fraserdw said:
			
		

> a former naval officer with PTSD who *cut the balls off of a kitten*.



That's just truly disturbing. Makes you wonder if he pulled the wings off flies when he was a kid.

Edit to add:  From the Globe and Mail article:


> The infantry didn't suit his temperament



There's a possibility he had problems before he joined.


----------



## Kat Stevens (20 Dec 2007)

Cataract Kid said:
			
		

> More updates to the story.
> Obviously VA's fault, according to the wife and friend....
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20071220.SHOT20/TPStory/National
> Was it stated somewhere that he was actually *diagnosed* with PTSD?, I haven't seen anything to the fact. I think the press are just drawing conclusions with what family and friends are saying.
> ...



Not that I'm defending the blame game here, but it's a pretty normal reaction to look for someone to hang responsibility on, or at least take a decent sized share of it.  Prepare for more lashing out from the family very soon.


----------



## GAP (20 Dec 2007)

On the news last night they interviewed someone who was apparently in his PTSD discussion/therapy group. I assume he wouldn't have been there without an official diagnosis....that said, there is little to go on as to determining what the PTSD was related to.


----------



## Blakey (20 Dec 2007)

> *Police shooting prompts questions about PTSD treatment availability*
> Last Updated: Thursday, December 20, 2007 | 9:36 AM CT
> CBC News
> Questions are being raised about the availability of help for soldiers and veterans with post-traumatic stress disorder in the wake of a police shooting that killed a Winnipeg man earlier this week.


http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2007/12/20/ptsd.html


----------



## George Wallace (20 Dec 2007)

I guess we all saw that one coming.    :

So predictable.


----------



## Blakey (20 Dec 2007)

^Yup, and it is going to (if not already) spiral out of control....


----------



## Shamrock (20 Dec 2007)

What an absolute crap article.



> "Sometimes it's difficult to actually take your own life," [Dr. Greg Passey] said. "From a soldier's point of view, getting into a situation where you can ensure someone else will kill you is an effective way of actually committing suicide."



With so many thousand serving and so many hundred thousand past serving members, how is this sweeping generalization even remotely professional for a psychologist?  I believe it's called a fundamental attribution error; an error that I thought psychologists were trained to avoid.  It's a sad statement that flies in the face of fact: all too many soldiers and former soldiers have had the ability to not make suicide a team sport.


----------



## Roy Harding (20 Dec 2007)

Greg Passey is a well-known and highly respected authority on PTSD.  I don't know if he's still serving or not.

When I knew him as Major Greg Passey, I didn't have a lot of time for him - but that doesn't take away from his acknowledged authority on the subject.


----------



## ModlrMike (20 Dec 2007)

Dr Passey no longer wears the uniform. He is in private practice (I'm not about to say where), but may still do work for the Crown. Just for clarity sake... he's a psychiatrist, not psychologist.


----------



## Roy Harding (20 Dec 2007)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Dr Passey no longer wears the uniform. He is in private practice (I'm not about to say where), but may still do work for the Crown. Just for clarity sake... he's a psychiatrist, not psychologist.



Thanks for the update on Dr. Passey's current military status (or lack thereof).

And the distinction between psychiatrist and psychologist is important - my middle son is a psychologist - and he can bore you for HOURS (he must get it from his Mother - I know I'm NEVER boring!)  outlining the differences.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Dec 2007)

"Failed to give the help he needed".........................if only there was a magic little pill/course of action that could fix a problem with the human mind.

You can tell a tree it's a tree thousands of times but, if it really thinks it's a rock, then its a rock.


----------



## Blakey (20 Dec 2007)

A little bit of information that I dug up.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2007/12/19/police-shooting.html?ref=rss


> *Matthew Gray*, a retired soldier, told CBC News that Bell, known to many as Tom, had long struggled with mental-health issues, including post-traumatic stress disorder, following a training deployment overseas as part of his military service.


Video interview @ 1:32  http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=72a_1198124082


http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2007/11/21/mba-taser.html


> Manitoba man sues RCMP over Taser use
> Last Updated: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 | 2:42 PM CT
> CBC News
> 
> ...


----------



## Roy Harding (20 Dec 2007)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> You can tell a tree it's a tree thousands of times but, if it really thinks it's a rock, then its a rock.



That may well be the best encapsulation of human psychology that I've ever read.

I've forwarded it to my son the Psychologist (Yes - I'm partially Jewish) - I'll be interested to receive his response.


----------



## armyvern (20 Dec 2007)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> Greg Passey is a well-known and highly respected authority on PTSD.  I don't know if he's still serving or not.
> 
> When I knew him as Major Greg Passey, I didn't have a lot of time for him - but that doesn't take away from his acknowledged authority on the subject.



I'd agree with your sentiments here, especially given the fact that the suicide rate in the CF is quite lower than the general population of this nation -- I just don't see where he's coming from with that quote.


----------



## George Wallace (20 Dec 2007)

The problem is DND and the CF keep too many records and statistics.  What other organization in the country keeps comparable records and stats on their employees?


----------



## Roy Harding (20 Dec 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> The problem is DND and the CF keep too many records and statistics.  What other organization in the country keeps comparable records and stats on their employees?



Most LEAs.  For that matter, most Government (whatever level) departments.


----------



## X-mo-1979 (21 Dec 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I'd agree with your sentiments here, especially given the fact that the suicide rate in the CF is quite lower than the general population of this nation -- I just don't see where he's coming from with that quote.



Yes our rate is lower.However for PTSD and suicide our rates are considered higher.
I had the privilege of speaking with a man from OSIS a few weeks agn comparison our rates for both are lower. (not by much..Actual numbers I will get when I go back to work...however cant think of work right now  :crybaby
HOWEVER: when you factor in that we are people with steady jobs and most importantly in higher physical condition,our rates are then considered higher.

A side note,If you ever can get a OSIS brief for your troops DO IT.Excellent guy (Ross),real professional,and could speak to the troops from a troops perspective.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (21 Dec 2007)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Yes our rate is lower.However for PTSD and suicide our rates are considered higher.



Interesting, I was reading my unions Correctional newsletter this evening and found something that struck me as,...well, interesting.
http://www.opseu.org/ops/ministry/locktalk/locktalkdecember202007.htm

_This lack of any forward planning and direction can no longer go unquestioned. 

We have asked the employer to join with the union and look at the stress in our workplaces. The MERC has asked the employer to review a recent case study done in Saskatchewan that looked at Post Traumatic Stress Disorder in Correctional Workers. The study showed that 26 per cent of those in the study had PTSD compared to a normal population average of 3 per cent. This is higher than soldiers who return from combat. Why has this not been addressed?

We have problems in our workplaces that go beyond what the employer terms as “unacceptable” absenteeism. We have, year after year, been exposed to workplaces that are poisonous and making us sick._


Of course, this letter is the Union viewpoint but I would be interested in finding that report.


----------



## armyvern (21 Dec 2007)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Yes our rate is lower.However for PTSD and suicide our rates are considered higher.
> I had the privilege of speaking with a man from OSIS a few weeks agn comparison our rates for both are lower. (not by much..Actual numbers I will get when I go back to work...however cant think of work right now  :crybaby
> HOWEVER: when you factor in that we are people with steady jobs and most importantly in higher physical condition,our rates are then considered higher.
> 
> A side note,If you ever can get a OSIS brief for your troops DO IT.Excellent guy (Ross),real professional,and could speak to the troops from a troops perspective.



Of course our rate of persons with PTSD comitting suicide would be higher given our line of work and given that we suffer PTSD on a more frequent basis than the average Canadian. But, our overall rates also INCLUDE those with PTSD who commit this act. We're still seeing fewer CF members take their own lives on a whole than the general Canadian polpulation.

Maybe it's just me, but I figure that since we DO experience PTSD at a higher rate than the average Canadian, and see things up close and personal which they glimpse only a still pic of in their papers ....

We MUST be doing something right if our suicide rate is still smaller than theirs.

It still leaves to be answered though, just what was the good doctor referring to with his quote? That CF members are more apt to enter a situation where someone else kills them  (such as suicide by cop) than the average Canadian? Because that's how I took it ... and I'm wondering exactly where he's come up with those statistics from. I do note how he did not mention that our suicide rate is still much lower (and that rate includes those 3rd party suicides of which he speaks) than the general populations.

Statistics, damn statistics, and lies.

I'd rather you didn't post the rates ... I am aware of them already, having attended an update briefing last week.


----------



## X-mo-1979 (21 Dec 2007)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Interesting, I was reading my unions Correctional newsletter this evening and found something that struck me as,...well, interesting.
> http://www.opseu.org/ops/ministry/locktalk/locktalkdecember202007.htm
> 
> _This lack of any forward planning and direction can no longer go unquestioned.
> ...



Interesting.
I would guess that the stats that OSIS used was the civilian population on a whole.Civilian being "those not military".I will try to track down the powerpoint once I get back to work.
Those stats are high though Bruce!
Also would have to consider the job implications in both cases as well I guess.


			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> We MUST be doing something right if our suicide rate is still smaller than theirs.



According to our breif ours in not lower.Overall the number is lower,however where we are the pointy end of society our suicide rate is considered higher by mental health care professionals.At least thats what  igot out of the breif.



			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Statistics, damn statistics, and lies.



Here,here


----------



## armyvern (21 Dec 2007)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> According to our breif ours in not lower.Overall the number is lower,however where we are the pointy end of society our suicide rate is considered higher by mental health care professionals.At least thats what  igot out of the breif.
> Here,here



The CFs suicide rate is lower than the national average.

I think you may have missed something in the brief. 

The suicide rate _within_ the CF however, is higher at the pointy end.

Did you get the bit about the rate amongst blue op Peacekeepers?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (21 Dec 2007)

Found it,

http://www.rpnas.com/public/pdfs/PTSDInCorrections.pdf

But methinks that reading 149 pages of this will not help me stay awake here all night.......
Day shift stuff.


----------



## X-mo-1979 (21 Dec 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> The CFs suicide rate is lower than the national average.
> 
> I think you may have missed something in the brief.
> 
> ...



Our brief by OSIS showed the two stats for suicide cf/civilian side by side.The military percentage was lower.Now the gentleman teaching us said "now people look at this and say the army doesn't have a problem,their problem is much smaller compared to the civilian world.However when you factor in that the military are in much better physical condition,have a larger peer support group compared to civilians and GENERALLY are the Alpha males of society.This number is viewed now as 3.6 of the military population is higher than 6.4 of the general population.

So basically 3.6% of a extremely health segment of society is view higher than the 7% of a not so healthy group.

No they didn't get into different op's and stress/suicide rates.I have had this brief a few years back.

(numbers above just used to illustrate a point)


----------



## Roy Harding (21 Dec 2007)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Our brief by OSIS showed the two stats for suicide cf/civilian side by side.The military percentage was lower.Now the gentleman teaching us said "now people look at this and say the army doesn't have a problem,their problem is much smaller compared to the civilian world.However when you factor in that the military are in much better physical condition,have a larger peer support group compared to civilians and GENERALLY are the Alpha males of society.This number is viewed now as 3.6 of the military population is higher than 6.4 of the general population.
> 
> So basically 3.6% of a extremely health segment of society is view higher than the 7% of a not so healthy group.
> 
> ...



That's interesting.

I'm chewing on it.

Thanks.


----------



## armyvern (21 Dec 2007)

Interesting indeed X-mo,

My briefing was also given by OSIS and by _The Centre's _ Detachment here ... and nothing you said below was part of the brief given to the supervisors here last week. Nada.

I find it interesting that one would view a smaller percentage of the population (ie the CF) as "bigger" because of physical fitness, yet wouldn't factor in the higher stress factors and general "world and human ugliness" that we are subjected to at a higher level than those average citizens. Seems to be pretty mitigating to me.

Again, statistics, damn statistics, and lies. You can manipulate anything to have it show what you wish.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (21 Dec 2007)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> and GENERALLY are the Alpha males of society.



...and if I remember correctly those are the most at risk for suicide......


----------



## armyvern (21 Dec 2007)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> ...and if I remember correctly those are the most at risk for suicide......



Exactly. Which is why I'm wondering why a lower rate amongst healthy alpha males would be used to essentially double our actual suicide rate ... you'd think that, realisticly, that would cut our already lower rate in half -- vice double it.


----------



## X-mo-1979 (21 Dec 2007)

It was a really good brief.
And I think the reason I actually walked away from it with info was the man presenting it approached us as soldiers.Looked at us when he talked.Not some civilian PHD psych guy rifling through powerpoint to cover what was needed.
OSIS is something I was not aware of before the brief.I now know enough to find help for soldiers or their families,which I wouldn't have had a clue how to do prior to the brief.

Now on topic. ;D

I feel bad for the family who lost someone.
I hope the police who shot him find peace with it,and realise they were doing their jobs protecting the community.And I thank them for their service.
And no matter where this man became mentally ill,its too bad he didn't receive the help he needed.


----------



## armyvern (21 Dec 2007)

I'm sure we were talked to like soldiers too ... he was aware who he was presenting to, the cadpat on us all would have been a big hint, as was entering through the front gates of the base.

I am wondering though -- why our briefings would have differed. Especially given that the one here was to some select supervisors upon the return of a TF.


----------



## X-mo-1979 (21 Dec 2007)

When was it?
mine was around the 15Th of December.It was only a hour long brief,covered what OSIS was and what it can do.The suicide thing was just one slide.And what made it interesting was the aside by the speaker.

Maybe the presenter presenting to you just looked at the stats as face value,it was given to us as an aside.

I think you may have misunderstood my comment on we were talked to like soldiers.
What I was referring to are those briefs where some civi with more qualifications than I have fingers and toes rambles on over the average soldiers comprehension.I classify these briefs as the "look towards the powerpoint screen and zone out until you only see the main colour scheme of the presentation."

I'm no phys analysis guy or anything so to argue the point for or against I really cannot.

Why you got a different brief who knows.Yours was for supervisors post deployment mine was for a general audience sgt and below prior to our deployment.


----------



## armyvern (21 Dec 2007)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> When was it?
> mine was around the 15Th of December.



Yours was on Saturday?

Mine was last week too. 

PM in.


----------



## X-army-cst (21 Dec 2007)

I had to skip from page 3 to page 7 of this thread. Lot's of folks are asking..Why was the military thing brought up?? Because it is a public organization you fool. It always will be. If I fuck up somewhere, it will say RCMP member does this or that, not Joe Blow did this or that. Gee aren't you all old enough to know this??? It's not new and has been happening for ears. Geez get over it, you can't change it by whining about it. It's news because you are in a publicly funded org. 
Oh well rant over. 
Thank you to all those folks in uniform. I appreciate what you do and will think about those deployed on Christmas. 
Have a good holiday everyone.


----------



## Michael OLeary (21 Dec 2007)

X-army-cst said:
			
		

> I had to skip from page 3 to page 7 of this thread. Lot's of folks are asking..Why was the military thing brought up?? Because it is a public organization you fool. It always will be. If I frig up somewhere, it will say RCMP member does this or that, not Joe Blow did this or that. Gee aren't you all old enough to know this??? It's not new and has been happening for ears. Geez get over it, you can't change it by whining about it. It's news because you are in a publicly funded org.
> Oh well rant over.
> Thank you to all those folks in uniform. I appreciate what you do and will think about those deployed on Christmas.
> Have a good holiday everyone.



x-army-cst,

Welcome to milnet.ca.  You will find you time here more productive if you don't start off with wide sweeping insults towards the membership of the forum.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## KevinB (21 Dec 2007)

Well I'd view it more of a personal attack, or an non grammatically correct sweeping attack, since he failed to pluralize it.

 I've heard (stand back Kev's up on his soapbox again) that a prevalent view is that the military views suicide as weak, and that the "suicide by cop" routine could be viewed as more "manly"
 Regardless - I feel bad for the officers involved in the shooting.


----------



## TN2IC (21 Dec 2007)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> Well I'd view it more of a personal attack, or an non grammatically correct sweeping attack, since he failed to pluralize it.
> 
> I've heard (stand back Kev's up on his soapbox again) that a prevalent view is that the military views suicide as weak, and that the "suicide by cop" routine could be viewed as more "manly"
> Regardless - I feel bad for the officers involved in the shooting.



+1
I agree.


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO (21 Dec 2007)

I agree too. When I was in Esquimalt in 96-01 a guy jumped in front of a transport on the Malahat to commit suicide. The poor truck driver was never able to get behind the wheel again.


----------



## fraserdw (23 Dec 2007)

One thing that has not been said here....... A comrade has departed from our tiny band.  May he rest in peace.  Regardless of who, how or why!


----------



## Thompson_JM (27 Dec 2007)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> Well I'd view it more of a personal attack, or an non grammatically correct sweeping attack, since he failed to pluralize it.
> 
> I've heard (stand back Kev's up on his soapbox again) that a prevalent view is that the military views suicide as weak, and that the "suicide by cop" routine could be viewed as more "manly"
> Regardless - I feel bad for the officers involved in the shooting.



I agree with Kev on this one too... hell even the thought of admiting one has an OSI (ie PTSD) can be viewed as weak. Not from the army side of things (ive noticed they are accually quite supportive on the issue) but rather from the member him or herself... thinking "how can I have it? i didnt have it that hard as some of the guys/gals over there..." or what not... they see themselves as weak, or a lesser soldier for having it, regardless of whether its true or not. so much along that vein, perhaps he felt this was a better way to go out. let someone else make the choice in a sense...  

in any case its a crap situation for all parties involved. I just hope the Officers involved arnt blameing themselves... it sounds like they tried everything they could to prevent it....


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## EW (27 Jan 2008)

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> Quite right Roy. I remember a few years ago a guy posted at Leitrim being court martialed and punted.....there was some Outlaw motorcycle activity and other nefarious dealings that brought this guys security clearance into jeopardy etc. the media painted that one as a "Decorated CF Veteran" Turns out he had a CD. Well I suppose technically he had a "decoration" but it's hardly the same as a VC or an MC hitting the skids is it?? The average joe public who watches way too much US television thinks a decoration means that the guy is a war hero of some kind.



Not questioning the "decorated CF veteran" issue, but I want to clarify on that individual.  The situation at Leitrim was blown out of proportion by a number of folks.  Person in question was neither court martialed or punted, although he was given plenty of bad press.  He has soldiered on and served his country with distinction, at home, and on mission.


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## EW (27 Jan 2008)

My thoughts are with the family, and the officers involved.

As for the media attention on his connection to the CF, it should not be unexpected.  Whenever something good happens to a Regular or Reserve member of the CF we often see mention made of their CF affiliation.

So sad it had to come to this.


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## IN HOC SIGNO (27 Jan 2008)

EW said:
			
		

> Not questioning the "decorated CF veteran" issue, but I want to clarify on that individual.  The situation at Leitrim was blown out of proportion by a number of folks.  Person in question was neither court martialed or punted, although he was given plenty of bad press.  He has soldiered on and served his country with distinction, at home, and on mission.



Trust the MSM to get it all balled up and then not bother to follow up eh?


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## Brad Sallows (27 Jan 2008)

So another person has died after being tasered.  Hm.


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## Shamrock (27 Jan 2008)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> So another person has died after being tasered.  Hm.



You do know he was shot, right?


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## Brad Sallows (27 Jan 2008)

I was being sarcastic.  Most - nearly all - people who have died as a result of "being tasered" did in fact die of causes which did not really involve the electric shock.


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