# Tacvest Mods



## PhilB (14 Nov 2006)

Hi guys, well as we all know tacvest bashing is both a fun and enjoyable sport. However, it has been done to death. We all know its a POS, we all know that there are MANY better options out there etc etc etc. On Archer Roto 1 I used a tactical tailor MAV, good piece of kit, but at home in my unit I have to use the tac vest. As a result I have done what we all do best, adapted and overcome. Here is what I have done to improve my tacvest;

1. Mag Carriage - The ability to only carry 4 mags is my largest bone of contention. To rectify the problem I bought a Dropzone modular panel. This basically converts the side pouch attachment area into a PALS modular panel and thus allows you to attach any pouches you desire. I next bought 2 triple HSGI mag pouches in CADPAT. I mounted these using TT 90 cant adaptors so the mag pouches were horizontal. This mod allows me to carry 9 mags, here is what it looks like:







Here is the mag pouches open:






Here is a close up of the panel:






2. My next major issue is carrying water. With all of the other things we need to carry and the pouch options avail on the tacvest a camelbak is one of the only viable options. I personally dislike carrying a normal camelbak over the vest. I find the shoulder straps slip around and make it un-comfortable. The obvious solution is to purchase one of the many after market camelbak carriers. My issue with these is that they are designed to carry the bladder only. When rucking, carrying an assault pack, radio, etc I attach my camelbak to whatever else I am carrying. This works with a normal camelbak but a bladder alone is to prone to bursting without its cover. To remedy both issues I had a custom carrier built. It attaches to the vest via shoulder straps, and zap straps, and is sized to fit a 3L Camelbak Hotshot complete. This is a great option because it easily and comfortably carries the camelbak and you can easily slip it out and attach it to a ruck.






Here it is open:






3. Finally my last major issue is the way the vest adjusts. I think that the metal buckles the vest comes with are completely useless. They do not stay tight and as a result the entire vest ends up sagging.
 ***NOTE*** this is a permanent mod***NOTE***
I took my vest into a seamstress and had her remove the standard buckles. I had her attach metal tri-glide buckles in their place. Then all I had to do was attach another tri-glide on each strap and loop it back over, much like a standard C7 sling. This mod does not loosen or come undone, additionally it is simply to adjust or unthread the buckles unlike the standard ones. Here is what it looks like:







All of these mods make the tacvest somewhat more usable. I still feel that scrapping the vest completely and going with an off the shelf modular system would be the best option for us but, then I'm only a Cpl! If we are going to be saddled with an inferior piece of crap then these mods make it a bit better. Hope this helps. I will answer any questions as best I can.


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## Jay4th (15 Nov 2006)

Awesome mods to make the vest serviceable. Now, those are spot on mods so get on the DIN, fill out the on-line UCR and document these mods as possible alternatives (include the pics and manufacturers of the parts and submit it through your ADJ).  Seriously, the more well thought out UCR's they get the better.  I just got confirmation of receipt of all mine the other day.


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## fourninerzero (15 Nov 2006)

OUTSTANDING! ive see some guys have the normal mag pouches removed and molle sewn on in place, and use dropzone or HSGI triples or doubles in place. this way looks easier to me, and also less permenant. id forgotten about Dropzones side panel for the TV. i espically like the camelback idea there, thats pretty nifty.


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## Bomber (15 Nov 2006)

Post the link Jay4th


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## 42A (15 Nov 2006)

I think the mod for the camelbak is great, where did you get that done? can you send me the info please

Thanks


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## PhilB (15 Nov 2006)

Thanks very much guys. To answer the questions and comments:

Jay - I will try and get on the DIN tonight but being a reservist my access is extremely limited. If one of you upstanding reg force members wants to send in the UCR and take the credit please be my guest. If so pm me and I can send you the pics

FourNiner - I was with a bunch of the guys in your unit that had the mods done to their vests. For those that dont know basically they took their vests in to a seamstress and had the maag pouches removed and a PALS panel put in their place. They then attached Dropzone rattle resistor mag pouches in place of the normal mag pouches. I didnt like, or want to go this route for several reasons. a) I was concerned about the mesh that the pouches were attached to ripping. I have personally gone through 2 tac vests, with the mesh ripping on each. b) It makes the vest somewhat more cumbersome and makes going in the prone and accessing the front, lower utility pouches somewhat difficult. A good mod with what they had avail but not for me.

Wanderer - I had the pouch built by Al Janes. You 3VP guys will know him. I'm not sure if he is still around as he had some stuff on the go. I am currently talking with Matt at CP Gear and hopefully they will be able to construct something similar. If you dont mind it not being cadpat I'm sure you could go into a seamstress or Mattech and have them build one for you. Hopefully CP will create this pouch and everyone can get one.

Hope this helps. Let me know if you guys want more detailed pictures of anything.


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## Loachman (15 Nov 2006)

I could not find the Dropzone modular panel on their website. Either I overlooked something that was way too obvious, or it's not there anymore.

Army Outfitters has a CADPAT Camelbak cover, but I do not know if it will attach to the Tac Vest as yours will.


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## PhilB (15 Nov 2006)

Like most stuff the panels are not on their website. I picked mine up at the PPCLI kit shop on work up trg. I'm sure if you called either DZ or PPCLI kit shop they could hook you up. The DZ panel is an all right option but there are a lot of things that I dont like about it. Hopefully someone makes some improvements and comes out with a better design. 

With the camelbak cover, I had mine custom made because none of the one out there that I have tried would fit the camelbak with carrier. Just a point to note.


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## ArmyRick (15 Nov 2006)

Good mods on the TV.


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## PhilB (15 Nov 2006)

Hey guys, I've had a bunch of people pm me about the DZ panels. I think the easiest way to get them, unless you live in Edmonton and can drop into DZ, is to got through Oneshot. Darren aka Farmboy will take good care of you.

www.oneshottactical.com


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## technofixit (15 Nov 2006)

Wow!!!  Your load carrying solution is quite ingenious, must have put lots of thought into it..  Being able to haul more ammo, and have that ammo more accessible is a big improvement over the issue vest.  Having the camelback in the center of your back without those shoulder straps must be nice too, as those straps can slide around and become annoying.  I do have two questions for you though, and one of them is a biggie.  Do you have any problems humping your ruck around with a full camelback?  Next question is knowing what the big holy book says about modifying kit, did your section commander have any issues with this, and have the other guys with modded vests taken any flak over them?  My reason for asking is pure curiousity, i'm not out to crap on your ideas.


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## PhilB (15 Nov 2006)

Thanks for the kind words. First off reference the camelbak. In the past I have had issues rucking with the camelbak that is why I had this system made. I simply slide the camelbak out ofth the carrier and trow it behind the valise on my 64. The tube is still accessible so I can hydrate on the march. When we drop rucks its as easy as yanking the camelbak out and throwing it back in the carrier on the vest. It helps if your fire team partner just grabs it for you.

As for being allowed/not allowed. To be honest I haven't really asked my section commander. All of the mods on the vest aside from replacing the adjustment straps are non permanent. The back straps although permanent are not very noticable. I used all of these mods while on PLQ INF and had no issues with it. In my unit I'm lucky, in the sense that I just got back from Afghanistan so the CoC is basically leaving us alone with our kit. I think they realize that we have a fairly good handle on what our requirments are and as long as we aren't pushing the envelope to much are not bothering us.

Also just so guys know price points on this stuff. The camelbak carrier cost about $40 to have custom built, the mag pouches were about $60, the panel was $40ish (it comes in a set so you can attach it to both sides), and having the buckles replaced cost a whopping $15. 

This system is not perfect. I am extremely happy with the adjustment straps and the camelbak carrier. It is the mag carrying that I am not 100% pleased with. The mag pouches are ok it is mainly the panel that is the issue. It tends to sag a bit (I had to add paracord to keep it on tight. Also it extends past the back of the actual panel on the vest. This is a pain because you have to loop the PALS panel through the rear straps of the vest. This becomes a hassel because as we all know getting those straps undone is an ordeal, and it alters the way the vest tightens and rides. You gain an extra channel of PALS that is so far back it is useless. Definitly a work in progress. Hopefully sometime in the future a different, improved version is released. But for all things considered not to bad. I hope this helps some of the troops out there. I just hate hearing nothing but bitching. I bitch as much as the next guy about our shitty kit, but proactive solutions are good to see.


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## technofixit (15 Nov 2006)

Ok thanks for the info.  I tried rucking with a camelback on, but quickly did what you did and put it on my rucksack.  It's good to hear that your chain of command doesn't have you under the microscope for personal kit, hopefully it stays that way and you can use what works best for you.  I can't stand the issue tac vest either, i'm thinking of purchasing a modular chest rig base soon, as i have quite a few pouches here.  Good luck with the rest of your tac vest project  8)


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## PhilB (15 Nov 2006)

Not a problem, I wish I didnt have to do it at all! A modular set up is the way to go. That is what I used on my last tour and if I end up going over again will use. But if I'm forced to use the tac vest at least its passable


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## Loachman (15 Nov 2006)

Darren PM'd me regarding the panels.

Can you post a couple of photos showing how these attach and why there's a problem with sagging? What alterations to the design would you suggest, and can the current ones be so altered?

There is a fair chance that I could find myself overseas in a year or so when my Sqn takes over the TUAV job. My odds of getting outside the wire are slim to none as I see it so heavy investments in fancy kit are likely completely unwarranted, plus I have no desire to overdress fobbit-fashion. I've always been one to adapt or supplement issue kit so I see this as a reasonable solution.

Photos of the Camelbak carrier showing the attachment method would be appreciated as well, if it's not too much trouble. No rush.

And thanks for starting this thread.


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## NL_engineer (15 Nov 2006)

PhilB, I find the sagging problem with the issued C9 pouch when used for the 2qz, so I don't think your problem is related to the panels but rather to the design of the Tac Vest.


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## fourninerzero (15 Nov 2006)

I agree with you on the replacement of the mag pouches. i dont like them that high up, and neither do a couple of them, but it beats having only 4 mags, and if they have to use the TV it works a bit better. i have a TT mav, that works wonders for me.


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## PhilB (15 Nov 2006)

Hi guys, so as requested. The sagging with the issue pouches is generally due to not having the vest tight enough. If the vest is tight then then entire side of the vest doesn't sag as much. That's why I changed the buckles so I could keep my vest tight.

Now first off is the camelbak carrier. Basically it attaches around the shoulder straps of the vest. It has velcro loops attached to d rings on the carrier so you can adjust the height of the carrier itself. Here is what it looks like with the loops open






and the loops closed around the vest:






The sides of the carrier have d rings that interface with the daisy chain webbing on the vest. You simply zap strap the d ring to the vest and your good to go. Here is what it looks like:






Its the same on both sides of the vest.

Now for the panel. Basically the panel attaches onto the daisy chain webbing on the vest with clips, then interfaces with the velcro on the center of the side panel on the vest and then loops through the rear attachment straps of the vest. Here is a front view of the panel. Basically looking at the panels attached to the vest, with the vest facing you. You can see the clips attached to the daisy chains.






Here is a picture of how the panel has to have the rear attachment straps of the vest looped through it:






Finally a view looking down at the panel from the top of the vest. You can see how it sags a bit and also the para cord I have looped around to try and mitigate the issue. The paracord does not completely solve the problem but it does reduce the sagging a bit.






Basically the issue is that the center of the panel is only held on by velcro and so when everything is attached (mags, pouches, cant adaptor, etc) it pulls away. Unfortunately I am reluctant to suggest mods other than the paracord at this time because I am currently speaking with a few retailers about a permanent change to the design of the panel. Hope this helps


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## Loachman (15 Nov 2006)

Thanks again.


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## PhilB (15 Nov 2006)

Not a problem, hope it helps


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## Matt_Fisher (15 Nov 2006)

PhilB, 

Nice creative work there!

Matt

PS, I got your emails and will respond in depth once I have a chance to catch my breath at work.


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## Yeoman (15 Nov 2006)

I've been planning on either doing one of two things;
one I was going to do several mods like that when build up training starts (don't think they'd let me jump a modified vest though), or replace it entirely with a modcan vest from DZ.
but anyways back on point; one thing that I was planning on doing (and was thinking of on the range today) was of a way to attach the old webbing belt on there so I can carry a couple more boxes for the c9. not sure how it would turn out with all the sagging and if it would make the TV bounce even more. I think it's going to be something that I'm going to have to drop off to the riggers at some point to see what they can do. I might just resort to just zap strapping them on there, but again not sure if it's secure enough for my liking.
but all and all, that seemed like some good stuff shown; hope a couple more of you people out there have some tricks to show!
Greg


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## 42A (16 Nov 2006)

Does anyone know of someone in the Toronto area who could sew the camel bak mod, and where to get the cadpad material. PhilB, do you have the pattern for this? or can you PM me the guys info who did it for you?

Thanks


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## PhilB (16 Nov 2006)

Unfortunatly, to the best of my knowledge the guy who did it for me is currently PSD in Iraq right now. All I did was take in my camelbak and work through my idea with him. Finding CADPAT can be extremely difficult. I think your best bet is to wait out until one of the Canadian retailer picks this up and produces it. (working on it  )


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## 42A (16 Nov 2006)

Thanks for the quick response, I will wait out


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## Loachman (16 Nov 2006)

thewanderer said:
			
		

> Does anyone know of someone in the Toronto area who could sew the camel bak mod, and where to get the cadpad material. PhilB, do you have the pattern for this? or can you PM me the guys info who did it for you?



Army Outfitters 1695 Avenue Road 647-436-0876 has a variety of custom CADPAT items, including CamelBak covers. I intend to discuss this mod with Dave next time that I'm in, unless somebody beats me to it. A rigger friend of his makes this stuff.


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## Loachman (16 Nov 2006)

Just to confirm, although it seems obvious enough, those CADPAT loops are the only thing holding the top of the CamelBak to the TV? They don't bunch up the shoulder pads or anything? The Velcro doesn't separate?

Is it worth putting hook Velcro on the side opposite the pile Velcro to grip the pile on the underside of the shoulder straps?


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## PhilB (16 Nov 2006)

Nope the velcro loops at the top and all of the zap strapped d rings along the back. There is no problem with it sliding around because a) the zap straps hold it in place and b) the velcro loops are right at the back of the shoulder straps on the vest so the cant slide back.

I wouldn't add velcro because it will make noise when you move around and also it would be redudent in my opinion.


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## Lerch (16 Nov 2006)

Yeoman said:
			
		

> but anyways back on point; one thing that I was planning on doing (and was thinking of on the range today) was of a way to attach the old webbing belt on there so I can carry a couple more boxes for the c9. not sure how it would turn out with all the sagging and if it would make the TV bounce even more. I think it's going to be something that I'm going to have to drop off to the riggers at some point to see what they can do. I might just resort to just zap strapping them on there, but again not sure if it's secure enough for my liking.
> but all and all, that seemed like some good stuff shown; hope a couple more of you people out there have some tricks to show!
> Greg



There's also the option of buying some aftermarket kit, such as a MOLLE belt, and some SAW pouches. If you strap on something like the HSGI suspenders, it would be a rig on its own, and worn on the hips would allow it to be worn with the TV.


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## Loachman (16 Nov 2006)

PhilB said:
			
		

> Nope the velcro loops at the top and all of the zap strapped d rings along the back. There is no problem with it sliding around because a) the zap straps hold it in place and b) the velcro loops are right at the back of the shoulder straps on the vest so the cant slide back.
> 
> I wouldn't add velcro because it will make noise when you move around and also it would be redudent in my opinion.


Roger.


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## Yeoman (16 Nov 2006)

see lerch I thought about that. but why buy something that I already have though? I have all that kit already. why go spend a couple hundred bucks when I don't need too?
I'll be attempting this mod this weekend and seeing how it turns out when I just zap strap it on there and going from there I suppose.
Greg


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## Lerch (17 Nov 2006)

Good luck. If zap-strapping it fails, try some suspenders on the belt...


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## NATO Boy (17 Nov 2006)

Belt keepers are a good possibility too (just gotta make custom ones for the wider 82 pattern belt.)

One thing I did for a buttpack was take the 7L Small Pack pocket and attached it horizontally at the back bottom of the vest and ran the fanny pack belt through the gas mask loops on the left side and ran the other end of the belt through ALICE clips attached to the plastic D-rings on the right side. This allows you to have a buttpack and extra support on the hips to keep the vest from bouncing; also, for those who liked hiking up thier packs on the buttpack of the 82 webbing, you can do it with the small pack (minus valise on bottom) or 82 ruck with said mod.

Another good place to attach belt keepers is by running them through the extra ladder locs (where the canteen/C9 pockets go) on the bottom edge of the vest. Once threaded there, it won't be going anywhere.

As for a hydration carrier, there's one that I found cheesy at first but might actually be good (for those wanting to buy one.) The Spec Ops H.U.M.P. Hydration carrier in OD looks like it could fit the bill for those who don't care about CADPAT everything. Thye can be found at www.sealsactiongear.com. The H.U.M.P. also has horizontal webbing on it (compatible with our accessory pouches) allowing one to still attach a smallpack pocket to the back of one's vest.

As soon as I'm no longer broke, I might pick one of these and a CB Hotshot and see how they work compared to my separate CP/CB Franken-bak carrier and bladder.

Just my 2 cents


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## PhilB (17 Nov 2006)

Why would you attach a fanny pack at the back of your tacvest? 

I think that a lot of the problem with the tac vest is how people are using it. Troops are trying to use to the vest like webbing. Your vest should be for fighting, thats it. There is no requirement for carrying socks, foot powder, extra kit, etc. Ammo, water, pyro thats  basically it. Carry the rest in an assault pack and your good to go. Keep in mind that you want to train as you fight. Set a rig up to use in a vehicle as thats what you will be doing overseas. Having a lot of shit on your back does not work well in a vehicle. Also keep in mind that the daisy chain system of attaching pouches to the tac vest does not work. If you try and carry and amount of weight in the pouch or it snags on anything the fastex buckles will loosen off and the pouch will sag. I have looked at the SpecOps Hump when I was in theater and it does not fit a full camelbak with carrier. Like other hydration carrier it is designed to carry just a camelbak bladder.


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## Farmboy (17 Nov 2006)

> There is no requirement for carrying socks, foot powder, extra kit, etc.



 ???  WHAT ???   You mean no rain gear either


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## Lerch (17 Nov 2006)

Rain gear? Who the hell needs rain gear? A roll of plastic wrap works better


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## NL_engineer (17 Nov 2006)

I bet there are some troops in the _Sand Box_ I mean _Mud Pit_  ;D wishing they had it on them in the past few days.


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## westie47 (18 Nov 2006)

Phil, nice work on the mods. 

I run a Cadpat TT hydration carrier that is attached with MALICE clips to the drag handle and the lower horizontal row of dasiy chain loops. It's not great but it works. I also have another TT hydration carrier on my ruck, these will hold a 3L Thermobak, HSGI also makes a bigger hydration carrier. On the front I have a ESSTAC pistol mage pouch with a Surefire attached where the bayonet goes. I moved my bayonet to the side. Ironically the only item that is MOLLE!!!! I have a couple different guys that can do custom gear, I just send them the CadPat. I have a CadPat version of a Blackhawk STRIKE LBV coming for testing, I am also looking at some John Willis Gear. ICE Tactical makes a couple side pouches for the TV as well. 

CadPat material is not hard to find if you know where to look.


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## JDMCRX (27 Nov 2006)

Very Nice work i like


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## Jay4th (28 Nov 2006)

Phil is on the money about what gets in your rig.  Anything you pull out of a pouch on a tac vest or a chest rig MUST be for killing. No cam stick, foot powder, socks. Put all that crap in a small pack, including the rainjacket..  Don't put it in your pockets either, it will only chafe through your entire sweaty day.  You need a place specifically for  empty mags ie.  a dump pouch.  Never put an empty mag back in a mag pouch.  Doesn't matter how smart you are about your reloads.  If there is an empty in there, you will grab it in an emergency.  AMMO, frags, smoke, m203, water.  Strap an m72 to the side of the camelcack motherlode. Don't leave KAF without it. That's it.


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## PhilB (28 Nov 2006)

Dont forget IFAK. Not pictured in the pics I took is my Maxpedition dump pouch attached towards the back of the vest. Thanks for the posts and comments guys. All in all I did not spend much money on all of these mods. Obviously the most expensive part was buying the CADPAT mag pouches. I would highly suggest guys make these mods because it will allow you to train with more realism. 

You have the ability to carry 10 mags and you can get used to packing properly (nothing but ammow, water, first aid on you). Obviously before you deploy you will want to get something better and sturdier than the TV but this is an improvment. Spend the money, and improve your kit.


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## KevinB (28 Nov 2006)

Self aid - buddy aid - medic aid.

In my vest med pouch (and ENDOM BOMB btw) I have 
Quickclot 
Two Israeli bandages
Sheers (scissors)
2 X Tourniquettes
Gloves

I also have a car kit (in my day/bug out bag) 
The US issue bag w/
Fluid kit (IV 500ml bag 
2 more Tourniquettes
large abdominal pads
more Izzy field dressings

more stuff this was from memory  -- when I get settled I will catalogue it


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## chriscalow (29 Nov 2006)

Where could one buy israeli bandages and tourniquettes?


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## Synthos (29 Nov 2006)

Gumby said:
			
		

> Where could one buy israeli bandages and tourniquettes?



AFAIK You shouldn't worry about that you'll get those medical supplies issued to you.


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## westie47 (29 Nov 2006)

If you are not immediately deploying or want those items for your personal BOK, you can get the CAT and Israeli bandages from CTOMS.ca. Quikclot you can get from Lightfighter or Supply Captain or Quantico Arms.

My BOK has 2 x Israeli (4"), QuikClot ACS, Asherman, CAT, shears and PriMed guaze. That's all you really need for a personal Blow Out Kit. I also carry a BooBoo Kit in my ruck/small pack.


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## Desert Fox (29 Nov 2006)

Phil..... i like the mag mod.... i totaly agree with the bone head factor of for mag pouches....

However about ur camelbak mods... What exactly do u gain from your set up?  if im not mistaken u said u where on Op Archer.... when i was in Kabul i was issued the cad-pat camelbak which attaches in a similar fashion to your tailor made creation to either the small pack, tac vest, etc.... 

help me out here....


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## PhilB (30 Nov 2006)

Basically using the issue camelbak you have two carriage options. 

1) wear like a backpack with the shoulder straps
2) Attach it to the daisy chains on the back

I have issues with both options;

1) The straps get in the way of other pockets on the vest, they slip around, and in my experience tend to fall off the shoulders unless you use a sternum strap which, again, interferes with chest mounted mag pouches.

2) Using the daisy chain system alleviates the issue mentioned in 1 however it comes with its own problems. I do not have confidence in the daisy chain system. It tends to come loose. It is not possible to quickly remove the camelbak. While not an issue if you are not carrying a ruck or an assault back, it becomes a major issue if you are. It is unfeasible to carry a pack overtop of the camelbak (uncomfortable, un-egonomic, puts undue pressure on the camelbak bladder etc), since it is attached at multiple points you cannot easily remove the camelbak.

My system allows the camelbak to be attached securely to the vest while still allowing a quick switch to throw it onto a ruck or assault pack. Simply lift the velcro cover and throw it in your pack of choice. I had this one custom made because most of the hydration carriers on the market are designed for the bladder alone, and not the entire camelbak. Hope this clarifies.


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## Desert Fox (30 Nov 2006)

ok now i see what ur getting at.... cuz i saw the self made pouch in you pictures was secured with the zap straps and i was thinking "WTF"  

but the idea is that you pull the camelbak out of it and leave the pouch empty on the Tac Vest.... now i got ya... cool....


I hate the shoulder straps myself.... i normaly have my issued camelbak attacked to my small pack via the daisy chain....i trust it, ive used it as such for a few years now.... 

Generaly speaking the small pack goes everywhere with me.... and with that i carry a small nalgene bottle in my tac vest so i always have somthing with me, even if i ditch the small pack for a while....

thanks for clearing that up....


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## Matt_Fisher (30 Nov 2006)

For those looking at such a mod, just be mindful it seems that the CFs have switched from issuing a Cadpat version of the Camelbak 3L Viper to the 3L Omega.  The main difference is that the Viper uses a wider/shorter bladder than the Omega.  Phil is using a Camelbak Hotshot which uses the same 102oz/3.1L bladder as the Viper.


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## westie47 (8 Dec 2006)

Here's a little something I have been working on. Once I get the bug out I will be making it in arid. The best thing about this rig is that it will be Canadian specific and will work for M203 and C9 gunners as well.






http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a204/westie47/frontview.jpg






http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a204/westie47/leftside.jpg





http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a204/westie47/rightside.jpg





http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a204/westie47/withhydrtionpanel.jpg





http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a204/westie47/load-out.jpg


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## Armymedic (8 Dec 2006)

westie47, 
I recognize you initiative and hard work...

But what you have is a near copy of a Blackhawk S.T.R.I.K.E. Gen-4 MOLLE System LBE Harness.

http://www.blackhawk.com/product_detail.asp?product_id=4487&d=

I have tried out such item, and found when worn over our body armour, it has the same drawbacks as our old 82 pattern webbing. It flops around when you run and slides forward and back. With your 10 mags loaded, the back top pushes hard on your neck. But you got to love MOLLE and the modularity the STRIKE pouches bring to it.


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## westie47 (8 Dec 2006)

Yes you are correct, it is a copy of the Blackhawk STRIKE LBE, however once I am done it will be heavily modifed. I like the basic concept of thie rig and with some minor mods will be very good.


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## Armymedic (8 Dec 2006)

You need a quadruple stitched pull handle on the top of the rear panel of the LBE.

Make it smaller. The STRIKE LBE is a tad big, but it does adjust in several ways.
Make it so the flotation pockets can be completely closed of with velcro tabs.


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## westie47 (9 Dec 2006)

actually I have about 6 mods that I am making to it. Like I said this is a prototype. It will end up as a STRIKE/BOAR hybrid. it will be smaller, have taller penls with mag shingles built in. the yoke will be modified to fit around the neck better, There will be flaps on the shoulder to run hydration tubes, radio wires etc through.It is quite big so we are going to look at making it smaller as well.


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## KevinB (9 Dec 2006)

You've lost a lot of frontal space with that type of closure -- it looks like you could get two single shingles in there if you rearrange the opening method.


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## Lerch (9 Dec 2006)

Why do I feel like you raided eBay for the MOLLE pouches?


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## westie47 (9 Dec 2006)

raided ebay??? I think not I got them from Dave's surplus and the rig is a mdified version of a STRIKE LBE from Esstac,. I never alluded to making the pouches myself. I was trying to get John Willis to make up some stuff for me but he doesn like to return PM's (as Kev can attest to).

Kev - I see what you are saying but I really don't want to wear something chest rig style, I like the front opening. Any thoughts on how to improve the front opening?


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## KevinB (9 Dec 2006)

Dean -- I'd recommend you talk to Andyboy -- he's got experience in the design of this stuff...
  The reason I say that is wearing the full meal deal armour setup you may as well add some thin stuff to the front as you've gotta keep it skinneir in the sides allow for the armour.  Damned if I can figure out to work it though - if you just want attachment and no adjustment you could have the shingle affixed with a fastex on the back.


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## riggermade (9 Dec 2006)

After making chest rigs and modifying Tacvests It really comes down to what the individual is doing and that the kit is functional.  The Recce guys from 1 RCR had an issue wiyh chestrigs because it was bulky in the front when they were crawling over stone fences so we rigged up a molled waist belt for them and they seem to like that.  I like the molle or malice clips because the soldier can put his pouches where he feels they are best suited.  The soldier has to be able to train in whatever he plans on using so it is second nature to him when he needs it


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## Lerch (10 Dec 2006)

bullocks... :-\


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## KevinB (10 Dec 2006)

Lerch -- hand over the shovel you've dug deep enough already


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## Scoobie Newbie (10 Dec 2006)

"I may not have experience with the kit in the field"

nuff said


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## PhilB (10 Dec 2006)

"knowing" about kit, and actually understanding and having experience in how it will be used are drastically different things. To know a piece of equipment is to have an understanding of the role you will fill and how the piece of equipment addresses the needs of that role. If you do not understand the role, then you cannot understand how the equipment addresses it. In short, with respect, you have no clue what you are talking about so don't talk.


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## KevinB (11 Dec 2006)

Okay guys -- he got put back in his lane -- lets get back to the issue at hand.


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## Scoobie Newbie (11 Dec 2006)

I-6 the voice of reason.  Now I have seen everything.  lol


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## Troopasaurus (11 Dec 2006)

Getting this train back on the tracks... 
What about a closure like the Esstac Split Front Boar? Maybe adding some snaps just for insurance.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/esstac/splitfront002.jpg

Also would the built in mag pouches be removeable like the Boar, or would they be sewn in like the hellcat?


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## PhilB (12 Dec 2006)

I wouldnt add snaps, I think side release buckles would do the trick. Something like this

http://www.tacticaltailor.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=104


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## westie47 (12 Dec 2006)

Troopasaurus, do you have any more pics of the split front BOAR? I hope you are not intending to wear that ACU around the unit......As far as I am concerned as long as it is Cadpat youa re good to go. O do like the BOAR though.


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## Troopasaurus (12 Dec 2006)

That's just a picture from the Esstac photobucket site... http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v321/esstac/

I worked with a guy on enemy force over the summer that had a split front bush boar in CADPAT however; It seemed to work great, he was pleased with it.

I'm planning on picking up a bunch of CADPAT pouches over the Holidays for my Hellcat so i hope to be wearing that in the new year.


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## Yeoman (12 Dec 2006)

see that's what I was thinking of doing with my webbing belt and attaching it to the TV. it's just not as high speed and expensive is all.
I've seen a couple of guys at work attach more mag pouches to the TV by putting them where the baynoette use to go on the front of the TV (sop here is over top the water bottle pouch for said stabby thing)
Greg


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## Desert Fox (19 Dec 2006)

Gentlemen

I'm looking to make a Tac Vest mod to address the issue of mag capacity.
Basically what I am looking to do is replace the single mag pouches with double mag pouches 

The question i have is regarding which aftermarket pouch should i consider? 

Double Mag, CADPAT... thats basicly the requirement... any suggestions?

Also, what are the thoughts on closures for the pouches, velcro only? clip? both? other??? 
I'm inclined towards a velcro only closure, but I have no actual experience with such a set up, anyone???

Thanks!


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## MPSHIELD (19 Dec 2006)

Although I'm not encouraging permanently modifying issued kit, there is at least one soldier who did it. Took a bit of searching. I knew there was a photo posted outthere before. See link for photo. See link for previously discussed post. I think he used a Dropzone Tactical Mag Pouches, removed the single ones and got the double ones sewn on. 

*Photo*
http://www.combatcamera.forces.gc.ca/netpub/server.np?find&catalog=photos&template=detail_e.np&field=itemid&op=matches&value=10842&site=combatcamera

*Forum  Discussion Link*
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/39948.0.html

Are you deploying on the next Task force?
Hope this info helps a bit.


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## Desert Fox (19 Dec 2006)

MPSHIELD 
thanks, so it can be done, and looks like it works... i would never make a permanent mod to my kit, not me, not ever.... 
as for your question, i was in Kabul in 05, the mag issued pissed me off then (not that we needed more at that point) but if i do go over again i'd either mod the issued vest or go with an aftermarket rig.... just looking for future options 

Riggermade
I was looking to hear from trigger pullers who have used diffrent types of closures, i know whats out there.... but like i said, i've never used a velcro pouch, for all i know there might be a strong opinion among guys who have that is negative or positive. I realise the common sence behind velcro being quicker then buckles... any velcro closure pouch users out there?

Army Outfitters 
What did you accomplish/contribute with you posting? btw you website doesnt work, i suggest you fix that before you embarass yourself by including it in your profile.... 

Mr. Bobbit
i know you already addressed him... sorry, but the "business professional/kit guru" ticked me off....


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## PhilB (19 Dec 2006)

Desert Fox,

Several points. I have a fair bit of experience with the mods (It was guys in my Pl that had Al Janes make the mods to their vests). What they did was have the normal mag pouches removed and had a PALS panel put in their place. They had pals put on the back of the issue mag pouches so they could return their vest to a state where it at least looked normal. They mostly used Dropzone rattle resistor mag pouches.

There are pro's and con's to this mod. On the plus side it increases your mag capacity however I think that the cons out weigh the pros. I know a couple guys had some issues with the mesh starting to rip (the entire front of the vest is mesh, by adding the pouches you are doubling the weight on the mesh), I also know some guys ended up not liking it as it made accessing the lower pouches on the vest very dificult. That being said a lot of guys that did the mod liked it and it worked for them, to each his own I guess. 

I decided to go with the non-permanent mod (as shown early in this thread) for my vest for several reasons. Having to turn in a modified vest is *NOT* a concern I have, and I question people that are concerned about this. If you are deploying and using the vest you are putting your life in the hands of your equipment. I needs to work and anything that can be done to make it work should be done. If you end having to pay some money 10 years down the road so be it, at least you will be there down the road to pay it. The main reasons that I didnt make the permanent mod that you are talking is because a) I dont think it is a very good solution and more importantly b) it is quite costly. I chose to spend my money on a complete non issue rig as opposed to spending the money on the mod. Again, personal preference.

As for mag closure, again personal preference. I personally prefer just velcro closure. I find it faster and more streamlined. But, and theres always a but, it depends where the pouch is mounted and how it will be used. For the mod I made to my vest I chose pouches with fastex closure because the pouches are mounted in a position which makes them much more prone to accidentally opening. If you need the security get the fastex, if they are mounted on your chest and you need the speed go with velcro. 

Hopefully this helps, merry Christmas.


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## Desert Fox (19 Dec 2006)

Phil, thank you... very infromative reply... exactly what i was hoping to get.... 

i didnt think that the POS would actually rip from the extra weight... 

if i do go play in the sand box again i'll be going with an aftermarket rig, you've got me converted... what have used/reccomend?


Cheers!

Merry Christmas...


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## PhilB (19 Dec 2006)

When I was there on 1-06 I used a tactical tailor MAV with an assortment of pouches from HSGI, TT, and ESSTAC (all bought at Daves army surplus) (3 triple mag pouches, 2 frag pouches, an IFAK pouch, and a med size gp pouch for smoke and other shit). It worked quite well but I am planning on changing if I go back on 1-08. I plan on going with an Eagle Plate Carrier w. Cummberbun. Also I plan on switching up to normal velcro closure double mag pouches.


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## MPSHIELD (19 Dec 2006)

Off topic-Army Outfitters-Is there a reason you used my name in that quote? Was it a cut and paste mistake?

Back on Topic-PhilB, I like the Mod you did in the photos. Nothing permanent but made use of what you had. Very Good Idea. I too like Velcro. I wish we didn't have Fastech but Velcro on our TV's, too slow to get at. Thanks again for the info.

Desert Fox-Glad I can assist. The only reason I ask about a tour is because I'm not sure you are aware that they issue the TV's in AR in theatre if you go outside of the wire. If the Mod you are looking for is for everyday use in Canada then it is good to go. I was just thinking you were doing something specifically because you were going overseas. I was worried you would have done all the mod for nothing as they issue "outside the wire guys" another TV (TV AR) in Theatre (unless they changed things recently). That's all. You have posted an answer before i posted this. ooops.


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## KevinB (19 Dec 2006)

For mags -- I prefer mine lower down and with a friction fit retention backed by a elastic loop for more agressive activities.
grenades and smoke I prefer with velcro and a button snap - its easy to pull the snap tongue

I run ESSTAC pouches affixed to the CIRAS and TT's on the ESSTAC's (they are different height -- and gives easier access to the mags)


















People have to resist adding the kitchen sink to their vest -- since they still need to be able to Shoot - MOVE - and communicate in it.
  Keep in mind adopting fire postions, exiting vehicles and movement thru dwellings or other confined spaces.


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## Bzzliteyr (19 Dec 2006)

I asked the question about vests and options for TF03-07 during one of our OC's hours.. the answer was "not gonna happen".  Apparently they are going to crack down on this practice soon.  I hope he is misinformed as I am a smaller build person and would like to buy a nice combo that will fit me well.. yes the tacvest has adjustments, but not to my liking yet..


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## PhilB (19 Dec 2006)

From what I have heard, 3-06 was told the same thing before they deployed. Once they got in theater the policy quickly changed. Someone please correct me if I am off base, as I wasn't there.


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## RHFC_piper (19 Dec 2006)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> I asked the question about vests and options for TF03-07 during one of our OC's hours.. the answer was "not gonna happen".  Apparently they are going to crack down on this practice soon.  I hope he is misinformed as I am a smaller build person and would like to buy a nice combo that will fit me well.. yes the tacvest has adjustments, but not to my liking yet..



We were told the same, right up until Op Medusa...  Things change when the bullets start flying.

As far as I've been told (from the troops still there from my former platoon) they're still using the non-issued gear they brought into Panjwayi at the beginning of Op Medusa, and no one has argued it.  But that's operational. 

I second guessed buying a lot of after market gear (ie. Denali Chest rig) and bringing it after our RSM threatened buring it if worn. But I'm glad I did. And even now, being back and not needing the gear anymore, I don't regret it at all.  

When you invest in Tactical gear (for deployment) weather a modification or complete rigs, you invest in your own ability to do your job and you invest in your life... Like all investments, you have to be wise about it or it will affect both your job and your life.  And when you think about it, can you put a price on your life, or your ability to do your job when your life relys on it?

BTW... these mods to the tac vest are great so far... good work.


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## Bzzliteyr (19 Dec 2006)

I have stated that to people that think trimming the Boonie hat should be a crime punishable by hanging!!  Does it really affect my soldiering skills if I have trimmed it so I can see more effectively with it on?? If I buy an Eagle CIRAS or any other plate carrier, does it really hurt anyone?  It makes me more able to do my job, right?

Anyhow, before this gets going in the wrong direction:  I understand mods have been made, but no one has discussed what trades have made those mods.  Are we to assume it's all infanteers?  If so, has anyone seen or heard of any "armour" mods?  I don't want to be out shopping for something I might not even need just cause I wanna be like Infidel-6!!


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## PhilB (19 Dec 2006)

I am infantry (the mods in this thread are mine) I know the moded mag pouches I mentioned earlier where done by infantry as well. As far as armour specific mods, I would think it would depend on what role you were filling. If you are operating out of G Wagons mods/purchases would basically be the same for everyone. If out of a Leo or coyote, well I have no idea never having operated out of one. Just think about what your job will be in theater, the requirements of that job, what you will have to face as a "worst case scenario" and then mod/purchase gear to fill those requirements.


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## Synthos (20 Dec 2006)

Hence partly why PALS webbing was adopted by the US, different set ups for different trades.


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## Desert Fox (20 Dec 2006)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> For mags -- I prefer mine lower down and with a friction fit retention backed by a elastic loop for more agressive activities.
> grenades and smoke I prefer with velcro and a button snap - its easy to pull the snap tongue
> 
> I run ESSTAC pouches affixed to the CIRAS and TT's on the ESSTAC's (they are different height -- and gives easier access to the mags)
> ...



Im not gonna ask any questions im just going to grin in envy  ;D


Cheers!


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## KevinB (20 Dec 2006)

One other point - which simply wont happend with the CF GenIV Armour Carrier is a releaseable system -- vehicles get hit/overturned etc and sometimes its nec to say fuck the kit I need to leave- your a lot more nimble in your combats/flightsuit than you are in 80lbs of gear.  If it comes down to me or my buddies getting cooked like a steak -- I'll go with I'll steal a car and kit after I get out of a burning vehicle.


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## westie048 (11 Jan 2007)

There is a lot of good info here for what a guy can do with what we have been issued in order to make it better so that we can actually train the way we are going to fight. The sad fact is that we have to spend our own money to make something that was issued better.




 :skull:


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## Ham Sandwich (11 Jan 2007)

I've pretty much given up on the issued TAC vest. While it's arm and leg above the old webbing, i can't get past the fact that mags are up high. But more importantly, it's not modular, and sorry, but a sect comd just doenst carry the same kit as say, a C6 gunner. 

I'm really impressed by the intial poster's mods however. Well done. I haven't seen anyone successflly add anything more than the odd dump-bag or pistol holster.

But for me, as i said, it's the mag puches i have issues with. so i gave up on it and just constructed this.

I found the 4 mag pouches in a surplus store (i have no idea who makes them). They were orginally a double pouch drop-leg rig (there were two, i bought 'em both as soon as i saw them), so I connected them side by side using zap-straps, and i re-rigged the straps they came with so that they go over the shoulders, cross in the back, and come back to the the outer edges of the outer pouches, and used the remaining strapping and a fastex clip to make a quick release waist strap.

Now it's a shitty picture, i apologize but the mag pouches are really slick. They can fit either one, or two mags, have a tapered velcro cover which is easily tucked behind the mags (for quick access)  and if you look closely, there's an o.d. strap crossing the bottoms of the puches. That's an ajustable velcro cinch that can be tightened or loosened for friction retention, and can be adjusted to securely grip one mag, or two, even with the cover open. 

So after rigging those up, i took the back wall of one of the large/long pouches that comes with the issued day pack (yes, i hacked up Her Majesty's kit), sewed some loops on it so it could be attached to the harness, and used it as a backing. If you've ever looked closely at that pouch, you'll know what i'm talking about. It has a velcro/button sleeve intened for stowing the strap that comes with the pouch - perfect map pouch for a chest rig. Then I just sewed a small strap across it in a molle-like fashion, attached a US compass/beacon pouch to it with zap-straps, and attached a small cadpat pouch above that (you cannot see this pouch too well, as it was open at the time of the pic -i'd been stowing the camera in there).

All i need now are some small cadpat kidney pouches to attach to it. I tried the issued tacvest c9 pouches, but they're a littel large.


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## Ham Sandwich (11 Jan 2007)

Jay4th said:
			
		

> Phil is on the money about what gets in your rig.  Anything you pull out of a pouch on a tac vest or a chest rig MUST be for killing. No cam stick, foot powder, socks. Put all that crap in a small pack, including the rainjacket..  Don't put it in your pockets either, it will only chafe through your entire sweaty day.  You need a place specifically for  empty mags ie.  a dump pouch.  Never put an empty mag back in a mag pouch.  Doesn't matter how smart you are about your reloads.  If there is an empty in there, you will grab it in an emergency.  AMMO, frags, smoke, m203, water.  Strap an m72 to the side of the camelcack motherlode. Don't leave KAF without it. That's it.



I couldn't agree more. Space on the front and the sides of my body is strictly for items i either need quick access to under duress (ammo, grenades, bayonet, pyro, field dressings), or stuff i know i'll be making frequent access to (compass, GPS, light, knife). I decided that if it's not fighting gear, or something i pull out 100+ times a day, then it it wasn't getting a spot on my rig. It either goes in the camelbak, or the daypack (if i'm wearing it). You don't need quick access to gloves, hats, stealth-suits etc. Those things can go on you back. And once you've worn a rig that hasn't got massive pouches by your sides, you'll appreciate how comfortable it is to be able to allow your arms to actually hang naturally unobstrocted. It feels like you're not wearing any kit at all when you can do that


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## Cote (11 Jan 2007)

Ham,

That picture sucks with regards to highlighting the mods you made on your tac vest. But as a picture its awsome - you look hella grizzeld, I really like it.

Anyway on a different note I would keep survival items in your pockets or somewhere on your body. Lighter, survival kit, mulitool, knife ect...


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## Ham Sandwich (11 Jan 2007)

none of that stuff needs to be in your pocket when out on ops. It's perfectly fine on your back. How often do you really have to delve into your survival kit when on an attack? The lighter i'll keep in my pocket, but that's because i smoke. And my knife no longer goes in my pocket when on ops. I'm tired of having to buy a new knife after every ex.


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## Desert Fox (11 Jan 2007)

Ham Sandwich said:
			
		

> none of that stuff needs to be in your pocket when out on ops. It's perfectly fine on your back. How often do you really have to delve into your survival kit when on an attack? The lighter i'll keep in my pocket, but that's because i smoke. And my knife no longer goes in my pocket when on ops. I'm tired of having to buy a new knife after every ex.



The point he is making in reference to putting the surivival kit on your pers is that you might need to ditch your kit.... espeically your small pack which carries non vital kit as it is, of course with the exception the survial kit you put in there.....

Can't really ditch the pointless small pack if it has you vitals in it can you?

Doing the "mogodishu mile" with a small pack sounds like a crappy way to start an afternoon....


[edited for spelling, at least the very obvious ones]


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## DELTADOG13 (11 Jan 2007)

With regards to your TacVest pouchs being to high on your chest that you can't get to them. This is what I did to lower them. Many others have done this for many reasons with good reviews.
Try undoing the velcro at the shouders and lower out most of the webbing so that it hangs lower. Try and see if that will help. It has helped for me especially for economy of motion and Tac reloads.

Cheers DD13


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## George Wallace (11 Jan 2007)

:rofl:


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## NL_engineer (12 Jan 2007)

Desert Fox said:
			
		

> Doing the "mogodishu mile" with a small pack sounds like a crappy way to start an afternoon....



Still, I would rother not run it at all  ;D

WRT survival kits, you have most of the stuff with you anyway (knife, lighter(for threads/smokes), etc)


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## Ham Sandwich (12 Jan 2007)

Re: ditching the small pack 

It's not a ruck. I don't generally carry so much in there that it would be nevessary to ditch. And I ususally just have a camelbak on anyway. That i KNOW i won't be ditching, so there's no problem with stowiung smaller items in there rather than  on my body. 

Re: loosening the vest's shoulder straps - I think you've missed the point of the tacvest. It's not going to work very well if it's not snug. It isnt supposed to be bouncing around on your body.


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## Ham Sandwich (12 Jan 2007)

.....then again, i guess i can't criticize it as i haven't seen it done. Just seems a little uncomfortable the way i'm picturing it in my head.


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## GO!!! (12 Jan 2007)

All of the doomsayers preaching about the evils of non-issue kit have been told to STFU once the bullets start flying in theatre. Fighting tours and parade squares are totally different places, and I believe we have it right when it comes to the de facto policy of wearing the TV for domestic soldiering, and something that works when actually doing our jobs abroad.

I am a big proponent of buying a good, solid pair of boots, backpack and some sort of load bearing equipment to do your job. Don't try to jury rig all of your stuff with zap straps, make expensive mods to your issue stuff or "let it all hang off you" so you can access it better. This stuff will never measure up to the manufactured stuff from a reputable company.

Go out and *BUY* something that works. Get it in OD or Cadpat, you can bowflage (paint) it in theatre, or just throw a little dirt on it. Best cam going, period. There are a dozen solid companies that sell excellent stuff in Canada and the US, tailor made for our jobs. Go forth and purchase!

While I nearly choked with rage when I bought an Arktis vest and Tac Tailor MAV, Blackhawk backpack and swiss mountain boots - they are what you need. I am fortunate to be in a Unit that quickly realised the deficiencies of the issued kit, and authorised the use of the necessary items - no reimbursement - you want it, you buy it, make sure it works and you must look Canadian - no flecktarn, multicam or DPM.

Other posters have stated it best "what's your life worth?" Think about it. I'll make an extra 13 grand or so when I deploy in feb, not including the tax relief. I can afford to put less than 10% of that into kit necessary to do my job. When I come back, I'll sell it on ebay, or just save it for the next time. If it gets burned, shot up or otherwise wrecked, the TV can be a backup until you get another brought back by someone on HLTA or mailed in. Resup is never impossible, while saying "no" always is.

Long term, speak up when someone asks. When the CLS comes to talk to you - tell him about your leaky raincoat, your crappy TV, and your useless boots. Nothing will get fixed if nobody complains. Also, make sure your units are putting in Kit deficiency reports (the real name of them escapes me right now) so that we can get better kit the next time.

Until then, it's always easier to ask for forgiveness than permission, and officers and SNCOs are almost always reasonable when you approach them with a well thought out solution to a problem instead of a whiny complaint. The old "issued kit only" dogma is quickly being replaced in units I know of being deployed.


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## aesop081 (12 Jan 2007)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> Also, make sure your units are putting in Kit deficiency reports (the real name of them escapes me right now) so that we can get better kit the next time.



UCR = Unsatisfactory Condition Report


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## GregC (12 Jan 2007)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> All of the doomsayers preaching about the evils of non-issue kit have been told to STFU once the bullets start flying in theatre. Fighting tours and parade squares are totally different places, and I believe we have it right when it comes to the de facto policy of wearing the TV for domestic soldiering, and something that works when actually doing our jobs abroad.
> 
> I am a big proponent of buying a good, solid pair of boots, backpack and some sort of load bearing equipment to do your job. Don't try to jury rig all of your stuff with zap straps, make expensive mods to your issue stuff or "let it all hang off you" so you can access it better. This stuff will never measure up to the manufactured stuff from a reputable company.
> 
> ...



Couldn't agree more with the above statements, and it's definately what seems to be the prevailing mentality in the Company. After coming back from leave, the kit "show and tell" was quite interesting upstairs. Amazing as it seems, personnel now have rigs that work for them and their role in the section/platoon, it's unfortunate that we had to pay for it ourselves. But as I always say "it's just money", and I tend to think I'm worth it, though not everyone agrees. It even seems many will be going with the old webbing over the tac-vest!

You could tell the highers were heading in the right direction with the SWAT boots and Arktis rig, it's unfortunate it didn't work out in the end. Until we come up with a better system, I'm more than happy to pay for my own gear for deployment, but then again, I'm a kit slut......... slightly ironic that those that called me that are now asking me for advice on setting up a rig  8)


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## Matt_Fisher (12 Jan 2007)

For us kitsluts out there, a word of advice is to keep all the receipts of the gear you buy and talk to your tax accountant, as you can claim a portion of what you spend against your taxable income as work-related expenses.


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## Ham Sandwich (13 Jan 2007)

Re: Buying good kit instead of fucking around with what you've got...

GO!!! - You're right, there is no substitute for proper kit but the sad truth is that we're not all fortunate enough to be in units which allow this sort of freedom. I've been told i'm not even allowed to wear the cadpat rig i've shown above in the field, nor are we allowed to wear magnums in any context. In fact, i'm sure if certin ppl knew the difference between Danners and the issue goretx cold/wet weather, i'd be told to take them off too. The other side of it is, you can't really expect the average reservist to go out and blow $500 on the latest eagle industries rig for the sake of going on one or two weeken exes a month. It's just not realistic. 

But make no mistake, i plan to get my butt to Afghanistan when 3RCR goes next year, and if/when i'm loaded, and CoC permitting, i'll be sparing no expense when it comes to kit. But at this point, and i think this applies to most reservists, given the inflexible nature of policies in reserve units (based largely in the igorance and inexperience of the old dinosaurs), you can't really blame us for going with the "ghetto" option at least until we know we're going somewhere.

I'm not trying to start shit, i'm just saying, most of cannot justify spending that kind of cash, esp when we can't even wear the stuff.


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## KevinB (13 Jan 2007)

There is a big difference in the reg and reserve world here -- (not a flame - but a realistic point) noted in both GO!!!'s and Ham Sandwich's posts.

The regular force infanteer will have months of use of gear in the period of a year, while the reservist may use the gear 2x a month (okay Firday evening Sat and Sunday) and depending their age and employement a course and/or concentration during the summer.

Add in the majority of the Reserve CoC has no overseas let alone combat experience and you can see why it is 1) Hard to justify kit for most reservists 2) Hard to figure out why the current kit sucks 3) Hard to find a CoC that will agree with #1 and #2.


However for reservists going to Afghan -- train as you fight -- for you fight as you train.
  Right before you deploy is NOT the time to buy a metric shitload of funky kit.


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## PhilB (13 Jan 2007)

I agree with all of the posts above. I posted the mods because it is a cheap and easy way to improve the tac vest, mainly for reservists. I agree with ham that it is un-practical for us weekend warriors to go out and spend tons of money on kit. That being saud I already have my rig set up for 1-08. 

I know on 1-06 we got the word that we could use non issue rigs quite early so I used mine on work up trg. I agree with what Kevin has said, once you get in theater is not the time to start using something completely new.


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## westie47 (13 Jan 2007)

+1 Kev......The COC should be approving personal kit at the beginning of work-up training not at the end of it. Things have progressed in the way that they are allowing guys to use what works but they now need to understand that a soldier needs to train with the same kit he is going to use.


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## Yeoman (13 Jan 2007)

okay now I've heard this from various people with various ranks and capbadges and I want to get this confirmed.
I've been told several times that the CDS has actually approved for troops to wear non-issued vests whilst out playing soldier in the ghan. is this true or not?
Greg


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## KevinB (13 Jan 2007)

Just tell them that "Rick said so"  -- I doubt anyone would have the balls to call you on it.
  Even if he did not can you imagine the look on a CSM's face when your Assisting Officer names the CDS are a defense witness  ;D


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## MPSHIELD (13 Jan 2007)

As far as TAC VEST Mods, aside from the issue of current Mag capacity, does anyone have complaints about the use of Fastex to secure the mags.  The reason i ask is in most of the photos I have seen of soldiers in Afghanistan, the Fastex buckles are not used and they only use the Velcro to secure the mag. I understand that this allows quicker access to mags which I do myself.

Was this issue submitted as part of the Mag capacity UCR? Has the method of securing the mag been addressed at all? I understand that this is probably second to the mag capacity issued however it just seems that they went Fastex crazy in developing the vest.

A possible solution would be something that was on the Old "Jean jacket" LBV. I used the OD LBV and found that in my experience the Velcro flaps and the snap buttons worked great. As seen in the Trial vest photo, they were at one point considering using the "Velcro flap button snap" combo. Anyone have any other thoughts or recommendations on securing the mags? Any Mods?
My 2 Cents.


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## Yeoman (13 Jan 2007)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> Just tell them that "Rick said so"  -- I doubt anyone would have the balls to call you on it.
> Even if he did not can you imagine the look on a CSM's face when your Assisting Officer names the CDS are a defense witness  ;D



we call em the newfoundland bad boy right now 
that would be some fun. I remember a charge parade the guy said he thought he wasn't at fault for the nd he had. ahh memories.
I'm already in the bad books with my csm, don't need to make it any worse as it is, I was just wondering if that was true?
Greg


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## westie47 (13 Jan 2007)

One of the problems with the tacvest is that the mags are hard to get in and out. The mag pouch should just have a flap as opposed to a lid. A velcro flap with a fastex buckle would be fine, also the mag pouch is too long, more of the mag should be sticking out to make it easier to grab.


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## Bzzliteyr (13 Jan 2007)

So.. we got together for our first "TF 03-07" parade yesterday... and at the end of it, after the CO had gone.. the RSM decided to chime in with a "don't even think about wearing your tan boots until we are getting on the planes to head overseas"!!!  This, combined with my prior questions to my CoC about custom kit (and being told, not with the Vandoos) and the fact that questions to one of our recently returned 5 Bde personnel resulted in him telling me about the fact that the PPCLI had high speed boots in Afghan and that he had to wear his black cadillacs, has me worried.

It was also suggested druing the parade speech, that we were going to "make some changes"... I have no clue what that meant.. but I worry a little bit.


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## armyvern (13 Jan 2007)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> So.. we got together for our first "TF 03-07" parade yesterday... and at the end of it, after the CO had gone.. the RSM decided to chime in with a "don't even think about wearing your tan boots until we are getting on the planes to head overseas"!!!



I'd agree with your sentiments on the tan boots, but it would seem that there was indeed a CANFORGEN released last year that emphasized the fact that these boots were NOT to be worn until overseas. If he had said anything different, he would have been sanctionning the disregardal of that directive (ie order) released in the CANFORGEN. Just a thought.


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## GO!!! (14 Jan 2007)

Is it entirely unreasonable to want to break one's boots in before deploying in them?


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## armyvern (14 Jan 2007)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> Is it entirely unreasonable to want to break one's boots in before deploying in them?



Talk to the guy that puts out the CANFORGENs GO!!!


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## aesop081 (14 Jan 2007)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> Is it entirely unreasonable to want to break one's boots in before deploying in them?



for the last time, stop making sense  :


(note the sarcasm)


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## RHFC_piper (14 Jan 2007)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> So.. we got together for our first "TF 03-07" parade yesterday... and at the end of it, after the CO had gone.. the RSM decided to chime in with a "don't even think about wearing your tan boots until we are getting on the planes to head overseas"!!!



Funny that,

The entirety of TF 3-06 Battle group donned full tans (includign boots... for those who had them) immediately after the Ex in Wainwright, and all of our greens were either packed away or shipped overseas (yes, they told us to ship our greens to Afghanistan).

The reason for this blatant disregard for the CANFORGEN;
- To assess who didn't have the kit (boots, tans, etc)
- To break in kit before operational use
- To free up the greens for shipping
- And I think there was a little LCF in there some where 

Guess the rules only apply to those who choose to follow them.


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## Bzzliteyr (14 Jan 2007)

My impression after the parade was the our "lanes" were going to be very tight.. I will have more info upon my return from Texas at the end of the month.  I believe the tan boot reference was with regards to everyone on base asking permisson to wear our ISSUED tan boots down to Texas) where we are simulating the environment we will encounter overseas.  Almost all have them from previous tours.  That would make sense, wouldn't it?


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## GO!!! (14 Jan 2007)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> My impression after the parade was the our "lanes" were going to be very tight.. I will have more info upon my return from Texas at the end of the month.  I believe the tan boot reference was with regards to everyone on base asking permisson to wear our ISSUED tan boots down to Texas) where we are simulating the environment we will encounter overseas.  Almost all have them from previous tours.  That would make sense, wouldn't it?



Texas?

What a load of BS. I have had to train for the desert in Wainwright and Gagetown in the fall and winter - for two tours now. We coul'nt wear tan boots either - we needed mukluks :'(.


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## Yeoman (14 Jan 2007)

going right now to get a few things modified to the vest (but can still come off)
one or two double mag pouches (all depends on how easy it is to get ahold of the bottom one) where the bayonet use to be mounted.
a compass/gps/cell phone holder for the left shoulder.
I might have to find a way to mount a reliable first aid pouch, like the TT one I just bought. 
it would be so much easier if I didn't have to jump the vest *sigh*
Greg


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## RHFC_piper (14 Jan 2007)

I'm still strongly debating having my TV modified; double mag pouches, new molle back pannel, etc.  But it some how doesn't seem worth it for a reservist, even though I now know how useless the TV (as is) is in combat...  

Train the way you fight, carry what you would into combat.

oh well..


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## GO!!! (14 Jan 2007)

RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> I'm still strongly debating having my TV modified; double mag pouches, new molle back pannel, etc.  But it some how doesn't seem worth it for a reservist, even though I now know how useless the TV (as is) is in combat...



I have all faith in the world that upon my return from this tour, the good kit will go back into my garage, and I will return to using the TV, boots and day bag issued to me. 

It's a reality in this army that there are two paralell sets of individual kit, vehicles, weapons, comms gear etc. One is for domestic use, the other for deployments - that goes for us in the reg force as well. 

My gucci vest will be great in A'stan, but do you think that will fly at a school when I go there for the next career course? The TV is good enough for the fake trg we all do most of the time in Canada, you know, the events that start out with "fall in for battle" .


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## NL_engineer (14 Jan 2007)

Yeoman said:
			
		

> going right now to get a few things modified to the vest (but can still come off)
> one or two double mag pouches (all depends on how easy it is to get ahold of the bottom one) where the bayonet use to be mounted.
> a compass/gps/cell phone holder for the left shoulder.
> I might have to find a way to mount a reliable first aid pouch, like the TT one I just bought.
> ...



There is a pouch in the works for the DAGR:  It will put it on the left shoulder, fit snugly to the mag pouches  :.  I relay want to know who comes up with these designs  :threat:, because with this attached; were the hell am I supposed to carry the other 2 mags?


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## Yeoman (14 Jan 2007)

huh, again see what happens when you don't have a log in. you don't learn these things
hey piper; john laporte can do it



that's some of his work. it takes a long time to make the TV into a molle vest, but it's definetely worth it. I know I'd be doing that if I was authorized to.
/end shameless plug to him
no compass pouch yet, but it will be here soon. though I like my triple mag pouch. very fancy and hsld.
Greg


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## PhilB (14 Jan 2007)

IMHO there is not point in putting that much effort into modding the issue vest into a molle platform. Some small non-permanent ish mods that make it barely workable is good enough, as go said two sets of gear. For the money and time put into modding the vest to that degree you could buy a much more stable and bomb proof after market molle rig and pouches.


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## Yeoman (14 Jan 2007)

it's something like $100 to do the molle pouches
and to pick up triple mag pouches from the guys around here is $20 a pop. just about none of their pouches go over $20 a pop (can't recall what their m249 pouch costs right now)
so really to do that it's actually cheaper then to get a whole new molle platform
I don't mind the tac vest design at all, I just hate the platform they went with.
Greg


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## NL_engineer (14 Jan 2007)

Yeoman said:
			
		

> it's something like $100 to do the molle pouches
> and to pick up triple mag pouches from the guys around here is $20 a pop. just about none of their pouches go over $20 a pop (can't recall what their m249 pouch costs right now)
> so really to do that it's actually cheaper then to get a whole new molle platform
> I don't mind the tac vest design at all, I just hate the platform they went with.
> Greg



What do you plan to do when you have to turn it in?  IMO non permint mods are the way to go; they may not make it much better, but functional  :, also you avoid the charge forwillful destruction of kit.


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## Yeoman (14 Jan 2007)

hey I never said I was going to.
I just said if I was allowed to I would.
can't we just agree that it's at least a nifty idea?
Greg


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## RHFC_piper (14 Jan 2007)

Yeoman said:
			
		

> huh, again see what happens when you don't have a log in. you don't learn these things
> hey piper; john laporte can do it
> 
> 
> ...



Actually, John's the guy that did the bag covers for me... I know his work well... wore a lot of it over seas.  

I am awaiting the ok from my home units RSM to start selling some of his gear through the kit shop (no go on rigs, but drop legs are looking good so far).

Johns a good guy and makes some awsome gear.  I have lots of pictures of his kit (taken for display in kit shop).  

I would highly suggest his gear to anyone.

:cheers:


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## Scoobie Newbie (23 Jan 2007)

Bzzliteyr clearing your upper chain of command are morons.  Here boots were broken in in garrison as GO said the boys trained in the winter as well.  BUT we were allowed to break them in in garrison.  As for moddified kit, well once the shit hit the fan here the RSM at the time said wear what you need.  As for good boots go with Bates Footwear Desert Assault M9 I think they are called with Superfeet insoles.


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## Trogdor (29 Jan 2007)

I realise that there have been many threads dealing with the shortcomings of the issued tac vest and how to improve or replace it to have adequate space for ammunition and stores on operations.  However this thread isn't about just that.  I want to propose that all of the troops who have served on operations, are going to be or who genuinely have a interest in seeing it improved send an email to clothe the soldier to detail what it is we need changed and ask why there doesn't seem to be any action on this front.  

Go here to send in your comments.  http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/Chief_Land_Staff/Clothe_the_soldier/hab/8/8_e.asp

I figure if we get enough people to do this that it might prompt a effort to address the shortcomings of the vest.

Personally I am a fan of the shape the vest has,  It is a good base to work off of.  However it doesn't hold the required number of mags needed on operations in places that are easily accessible and it isn't modular enough to allow M203 or C9 gunners the flexibility they need for their battle load.

I hope that by the time I go over to the sandbox there will be a issued system that is adequate for me as an infantry soldier to operate properly.  I don't really want to spend my hard earned cash on kit that should be provided to me nor do I want to get an earfull for wearing non-issued kit from people who never leave the wire.  

What do you all think?  I hope we can all get something positive done here.


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## PhilB (29 Jan 2007)

UCR's are the approved method of recommending change for issued kit. That being said CTS doesnt want to change the vest. Spend the money, get something that works and you can rely on (p.s. the "platform" the vest is based on is equally as shitty as the finished product)YMMV


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## Jay4th (29 Jan 2007)

At least three proper UCR's went up just in my Company.  The form is on thie DIN, you just fill it out and e-mail it up.  We also put up some on the tri-rail and the Ambidex safety IIRC.  The more well articulated UCR's they get from troops who used the kit on ops the better.


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## Trinity (29 Jan 2007)

The tac vest...  sucks for the infantry..  no doubt.

Does it suck for medics, rms, etc?

I'm sure it fits the needs for 80% of trades.

Maybe we don't need to get rid of it... but more than likely
get a very specific one for the infantry


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## Trogdor (29 Jan 2007)

Yeah that's what I was thinking.  Infantry needs are pretty different from the rest of the army when it comes to equipment.


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## GO!!! (29 Jan 2007)

The problem with the TV is that it is/was the "pet project" of a certain Major in DLR. It was supposed to be his crowning achievement to make this vest to be all and end all. We told him it was a POS at every turn, and were ignored.

The problem with the TV is the enormous and fragile egos of the designers and procurement people - they will never, ever, under any circumstances acquiesce to a new or improved TV because it would mean that there is something wrong with the old one, which they spent as much as a space shuttle launch designing - independent of input from anyone who would actually use it.

My unit has submitted UCRs from all levels to no avail. The TV will not be replaced or improved until the staff at DLR are cycled out, full stop.


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## brihard (30 Jan 2007)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> The problem with the TV is that it is/was the "pet project" of a certain Major in DLR. It was supposed to be his crowning achievement to make this vest to be all and end all. We told him it was a POS at every turn, and were ignored.



He should come down to Cartier Square on Thursday night. If it's at all like last week, we'll be issued a rifle and ten mags. He can do the same, and we can even give him a couple boxes of C9 to boot.

I cannot abide bureaucratic territoriality...


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## Trinity (30 Jan 2007)

I believe there is a whole  LONG thread somewhere that addresses 
every aspect of this issue.  Do we need a new thread to revisit this?


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## vonGarvin (30 Jan 2007)

Don't forget to give him water (lots), body armour, medpacks, M203 grenades, a PRR, etc and so on and so forth....


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## KevinB (30 Jan 2007)

Trinity said:
			
		

> I believe there is a whole  LONG thread somewhere that addresses
> every aspect of this issue.  Do we need a new thread to revisit this?



yeah -- until someone gets frustrated enough to 1) Snap and do a rampaging shooting of DLR and Soldier Systems pers... 2) Replace the vest. 3) All of the Above.


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## vonGarvin (30 Jan 2007)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> yeah -- until someone gets frustrated enough to 1) *Snap and do a rampaging shooting of DLR and Soldier Systems pers*... 2) Replace the vest. 3) All of the Above.



:rofl:

Is your avatar a "vision" of future events at DLR?  

j/k

But, seriously, this is a serious matter.  Heck, it can be done: it's just a frickin' vest for frick's sakes!  The Germans, in WWII, realised that their basic tank design (MK IV) wasn't good enough, so they überproduced a really good tank (MK V), although rushed with some problem, was quickly solved, in TOTAL WAR conditions, and emerged as the best all-round tank of WWII, outstanding in terms of firepower, protection and mobility!  If they can do that in less than a year under those conditions (even tendering to markets and competitions and all), then by Gum we should produce something MUCH better in less than that time!


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## RHFC_piper (30 Jan 2007)

Jay4th said:
			
		

> At least three proper UCR's went up just in my Company.  The form is on thie DIN, you just fill it out and e-mail it up.  We also put up some on the tri-rail and the Ambidex safety IIRC.  The more well articulated UCR's they get from troops who used the kit on ops the better.



Now that I know about this process, I will definitely be writing out a few UCR's, and I will be encouraging others from Charles Coy to do the same. :cheers:

And as was stated in this thread, there is a whole other thread devoted to the sheer ****-knockery that is the issued tactical vest , so I won't get into a rant about how useless it is and how much I want to set mine on fire.   Instead, I will simply voice my oppinion to anyone of greater tactical importance who will listen in the hopes that, some day, some one will take up my cause and rid the forces (or at least the combat arms) of these useless items and replace them with substantially less useless items. (hoping for completely usefull items is a long shot, so I will settle for just less useless... but I'll still dream.)


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## armyvern (30 Jan 2007)

Jay4th has it bang on here folks. Problems with kit? Any kit...UCRs are the way to go.


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## midget-boyd91 (30 Jan 2007)

RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> rid the forces (or at least the combat arms) of these useless items and replace them with substantially less useless items.



So, less junk and more Duct Tape, eh?


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## RHFC_piper (30 Jan 2007)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> Jay4th has it bang on here folks. Problems with kit? Any kit...UCRs are the way to go.



Since you're the one who would know; Do these UCRs just get passed up the CoC, or is there a specific person / department to email?  I just want to ensure they get where they need to go to get the best results.




_Sorry, hit the wrong darn button...again. I am a numpty!!  ;D Vern_


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## armyvern (30 Jan 2007)

RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> Since you're the one who would know; Do these UCRs just get passed up the CoC, or is there a specific person / department to email?  I just want to ensure they get where they need to go to get the best results.



I'll post the DIN link up tomorrow at work. The site contains the form for electronic submission and how to go about submitting/tracking it.


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## R031button (30 Jan 2007)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> Jay4th has it bang on here folks. Problems with kit? Any kit...UCRs are the way to go.



Or we could just hope that the mass of pictures of troops in afghanistan wearing non issued rigs gets some wheels turning at the DLR.


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## armyvern (30 Jan 2007)

R031button said:
			
		

> Or we could just hope that the mass of pictures of troops in afghanistan wearing non issued rigs gets some wheels turning at the DLR.



Or not. Ladies and gents there is a proper way to get things done. Your plan above hasn't seen any improvements since the issue of the TV...years ago now.

This is why UCRs exist. If you don't use them, don't complain when nothing happens. UCR = Unsatifactory Condition Report. It's an official document. Unsatisfied with your kit? Use it.


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## R031button (30 Jan 2007)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> Or not. Ladies and gents there is a proper way to get things done. You're plan above hasn't seen any improvements since the issue of the TV...years ago now.
> 
> This is why UCRs exist. If you don't use them, don't complain when nothing happens. UCR = Unsatifactory Condition Report. It's an official document. Unsatisfied with your kit? Use it.



It's been well documented by other members of this forum that said UCR have been sent, repeatedly, and by multiple units.


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## armyvern (30 Jan 2007)

UCRs can be submitted by individuals.

3 UCRs from a company full of pers, or a Coy full of pers submitting UCRs, which is going to really show that the troops are not happy?

And unless they are submitted properly as per the link I'm going to post tomorrow with electronic tracking, they can, and do, get lost in NDHQ...it's an awful big place.

UCRs have their own DIN site, it's there for submissions.

I'll tell you what, a UCR has one signature block on it for "originator" when only one goes in, it's just like only one pers is complaining. 
At clothing stores, during the first run of cadpat uniforms (if you've been around long enough to remember - which you have not) they were fading/deteriorating very quickly. Immediately, we had each person who came into clothing stores fill in a UCR at the counter. This was before they were electronic. We submitted them by the hundreds....guess what happened very quickly? It got fixed. 

Perhaps though you are right, I may be out of my lane talking about UCRs.


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## Yeoman (30 Jan 2007)

dang, owned another lad on the board without once cursing. I don't know how you do it.
must be the infantry in me that makes me want to swear more
is it easy said UCR on the din? I don't even know where to look. might as well fill out a couple, and muckle onto some of the guys and make em fill some out too.
Greg


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## armyvern (30 Jan 2007)

Yeoman said:
			
		

> dang, owned another lad on the board without once cursing. I don't know how you do it.
> must be the infantry in me that makes me want to swear more
> is it easy said UCR on the din? I don't even know where to look. might as well fill out a couple, and muckle onto some of the guys and make em fill some out too.
> Greg



It's actually a quite simple process. I'll post up the link today.

PS...I already 'own' a member of The RCR at home, perhaps it's habit. I can swear with the best of you; you just don't want to hear me swearing!!


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## Trogdor (30 Jan 2007)

That sounds like a good idea.  Maybe a link to the UCR site should be stickied in the equipment section so that troops going online here to voice concerns over the TV or other issued kit can send their comments to the right place.

Would it help if most people submitted UCR's with similar suggestions.?  I.E. that there should be more capacity for magazines and ammo and the vest should be more modular with MOLLE type straps.

I'm going to bring this link to the attention of every rifleman in my Coy as soon as possible.  It's about time something got done on this.  

If it is true what I've heard about this thing being someone's pet project then I'm bloody disgusted.  This is my life and my performance in combat that is at risk because someone couldn't do proper R&D to identify the needs of modern infantry combat.  Hell they could have spent a lot less by just listening to young infanteers in the first place.


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## Loachman (30 Jan 2007)

If it's any consolation - and I know that it's not - this pet-project mentality exists elsewhere too. Almost twenty years ago when I was the NBC O in 444 Squadron in Lahr I UCRed every single piece of aircrew NBC kit except for the rubber boots, which, being the standard issue type, were the only thing that worked out of the whole lot. The rest of the mask and suit would have destroyed our whole operation within twenty-four hours even without the enemy actually using chemicals. The worst piece was the AR-5 mask, a heavy-duty black condom with a window and fighter oxygen mask that required a battery-operated (big battery) electric motor to provide positive pressure. That meant that one had to wear one's flying helmet with the mask at all times in order to keep the mask part against one's face and avoid the comical spectacle of one's black-clad head alternately expanding and contracting as inhalation and exhalation worked either with or against the blower/filter motor. A room full of aircrew with unsynchronized growing/shrinking heads was a real visual treat, accompanied by a symphony of mini vacuum-cleaner sounds. There was no voice transmitter, so a four-by-six-by-two-inch speaker/microphone unit had to be plugged in in order to hear and speak, and it was both highly directional and inadequate. There was no way to mask in the standard nine seconds - it took many minutes and at least one assistant.

The bozo ramming this down our throat refused to even consider the AC4 mask, a simple adaptation of the standard C4, which worked quite well, could be produced in the field by one man with a sewing machine, a C4 mask, and some other pieces, and cost $700.00 vice the AR-5's $7000.00.

The two-layer suit prevented one from doing the standard urination and defecation drills. I wanted a slightly longer zipper, as the original one came down to mid-fly level, and the "official" solution came down to a condom with a tube and bag to wear under the already too-tight suit. As the condom tended to get blasted off in trials, the suggested method of retention was.... denture adhesive. As for the defecation problem, we were told that "the adult diaper industry has made great strides lately". Fortunately, that idiocy died quickly when I had a couple of opportunities to lampoon it publicly.

The same twit who was pushing this also spawned the blue version of the goretex clothing onto our techs, who were left with very nice clothing to wear when working out of a nice warm(ish) hangar in garrison, but had to revert to the standard old combat clothing in the field.

Getting sensible kit is a huge uphill battle.

I can readily identify with Kevin's proposed solution. I felt the same at the time.


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## armyvern (30 Jan 2007)

Wolfe,

Let me assure you that the Tac Vest was a collective effort and can NOT be laid at the feet of any one pers.

Truly, if just one individual were able to make things appear within the CF system, I'm sure the CDS would have had all 3 of our elements fixed up by now.

Just my .02cents.


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## armyvern (30 Jan 2007)

For those of you who'd like the UCR (CF 777) info, you can send me a PM.

Be advised that simply spamming the system with them will get you no where. The are blocks that need to be filled in appropriately, and suggestions/shortcomings (specificly) that you'll need to be prepared to put in writing. "It's sucks" won't cut it.  

You are also going to need to find out who your UCR Co-ordinator is for your base. In this case, contact your clothing stores or Base Supply (Cust Services sect) as they may be able to provide.

The DIN site I referred to earlier has been moved from the MA&S Desktop site to the Mat Knet, but has not yet been converted for use. I'll post the link when it is converted and running.


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## Jay4th (31 Jan 2007)

Librarian is absolutely right. I passed mine up in straight to my OC as per his request, he tweaked it with his military writing skills and sent it BACK down to me.  I then submitted each of them with photos of the fault, and photos of possible replacement along with contact info of the manufacturer/distributor.  You must think these things out, know who manufactured the issue item, and NSN.  Be constructive and thorough or it will be dismissed as bitching.  The website explains the proces well.


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## KevinB (31 Jan 2007)

Keep in mind some UCR's that where submitted by individuals and companies - have been deleted from the system...
   - How do I know that -- well I wrote some of them


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## a_majoor (31 Jan 2007)

Since I am going over very soon, and don't have money for Gucci kit, I made two very simple mods:

1. Attaching a drop bag (using Zap Straps) to the left front edge of the tac vest, and

2. Getting a chest rig and 4X C7 mag pouches (holding 2 mags each) which can be put over top pf the Tac Vest (the other pouches for medical kit etc are still available).

Since the soldier suggested mods (modular attachment points, more ammunition storage, clear sides) are not really rocket science; it is difficult to understand what is taking so long.......


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## KevinB (31 Jan 2007)

Art -- I sent a vest to LoneWolfQuag -- if Quag has not destroyed it (or if he buys it) your welcome too it.


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## Scoobie Newbie (6 Feb 2007)

No worries Kev.  I wasn't sure which way you wanted to go.  I will wash it when I get back and send it on its way.  Art when are you going to be here?


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## KevinB (6 Feb 2007)

Rob,

Whatever you want to do -- I will leave it in your capable hands -- Art if you want it - PM Quag.

We can make a rotating ARMY.CA deployment kit loadout.


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## MJP (6 Feb 2007)

Lone Wolf Quagmire said:
			
		

> No worries Kev.  I wasn't sure which way you wanted to go.  I will wash it when I get back and send it on its way.  Art when are you going to be here?



Just make sure I get my TT MAV and pouches back my friend.  Not that I don't want Art to have it but I'll probably need it.


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## PhilB (6 Feb 2007)

I dont have much stuff left but if anyone needs other stuff shoot me a pm. I have some almost new Oakley and Bates M6 boots and other stuff.


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## Scoobie Newbie (6 Feb 2007)

Mike, come on.  I would like to think you know me better then to give out kit that doesn't belong to me.  Apparently Art is gong to be here soon.  I may just give it to Gunner to hold on to it.  P.S.  Kev, Mike thanks again.  Art your gonna need some grenade pouches.


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## Sig_Des (6 Feb 2007)

Lone Wolf Quagmire said:
			
		

> Art your gonna need some grenade pouches.



If he doesn't get them sent to him, or pick them up in KAF, I could probably bring him some when I head over.


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## MJP (6 Feb 2007)

LOL I know bud I was just bugging ya.


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## Scoobie Newbie (6 Feb 2007)

roger, internet is lousy for that sort of thing.


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## Bzzliteyr (7 Feb 2007)

Well if we are begging for handouts, I will jump on the bandwagon and ask for some as I am heading over on 03-07.  I will not discuss our kit constraints but I am hoping I will be able to kit myself out well even though I am in the Armour Corps.  We might not do the same close in fighting the Infantry guys do, but I want to feel safe if ever the case arises.


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## Donut (7 Feb 2007)

If it's still intact, you can leave it at the KAF MMU, I'll pick it up for 1-08    ;D

DF


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## Garett (8 Feb 2007)

Yeah, I'm to lazy to do a search.  Anyone put the small pack small pouches on the sides of the TacVest?  Quite a bit more room.  There seem to be a lot of products out there that could easily be modified to fit.


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## Andyboy (9 Feb 2007)

Hey Garret,

Yeah I put the small pack pouches on my TV, they worked well there, much more room for stuff. I modified them a bit so that they sit a bit lower.


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## NL_engineer (12 Feb 2007)

Garett said:
			
		

> Yeah, I'm to lazy to do a search.  Anyone put the small pack small pouches on the sides of the TacVest?  Quite a bit more room.  There seem to be a lot of products out there that could easily be modified to fit.



I tried it on my last ex and found it a pain in the a**.  I mounted one of the smaller pouches to the spot that the C9 pouch/canteen pouch goes, and I found that it got in the way for almost everything.  It also made accessing things like my fmp, bino's, and BEW slower and annoying; let alone having to reach higher up to access those items.


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## Garett (15 Feb 2007)

It aint perfect but stuff doesn't fall out.  I don't trust the regular pouches at all.


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## ProPatria031 (25 Jul 2007)

OK I'm sure this has been asked 100 times already. but are we authorized and if not do they care if we do these mods cause I would like to but I'm still a FNG and I don't wanna get jacked up for heavily modifying my TV. I'd like an answer from anyone in 3RCR if possible.

 :cheers:


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## Sig_Des (25 Jul 2007)

ProPatria031 said:
			
		

> OK I'm sure this has been asked 100 times already. but are we authorized and if not do they care if we do these mods cause I would like to but I'm still a FNG and I don't wanna get jacked up for heavily modifying my TV. I'd like an answer from anyone in 3RCR if possible.



Your best bet is to bring this up through your CoC. Anyone here can tell you "Yeah, go ahead" or "No, absolutely not", but in the end, your CoC is who has the final say.

I will tell you though, that any permanent modifications you make to the vest may be considered damaging kit, and you may be forced to pay for said piece of kit.


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## ProPatria031 (25 Jul 2007)

Thanks a lot dude I'll just go out and buy my own instead of worrying bout having to pay for that POS :rofl:

 :cheers:


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## MikeL (31 Jul 2007)

Another option for non permament mods






TT triple mag pouch attached to the loops for the bayonet frog and a CP Gear IFAK.  This is my back up incase something happens to my chest rig or for whatever reason I'm not allowed to wear it.

Don't usually carry the 2qt though, usually put my other 3 mags( or 2 if I got a mag in my A2) some misc stuff, an maybe a small bottle of powerade or whatever). Plus the 3L camelbak worn over top of the tac vest.


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