# new (old ) ROTP hopeful advice and insight welcome



## Kiltman (21 Jan 2011)

Hi, I've been lurking here for a few weeks reading some of the threads on commissioning and the like ( I must admit it is easy to get side tracked to other threads here.. ).

 At the moment I'm a 43 year old, former Olympic level athlete, still is great shape. I was a reserve-ist out of high School years ago, but obviously did not continue on.  I've closed a business I've had for the last 10 years and have decided to go for this years ROTP selection.  I'm looking at Infantry/Armour/Pilot selection 9 I have ~25-30 hrs in 172's but no PPL. 

 My goal is to get as much ' pointy end of the stick' time in as i can before I am 'phased out' and off to parts unknown. 

 Any advice is going to be greatly appreciated but in-particular I'm wondering about how realistic I am being about getting combat exp? 

 As well, given I am in 'good' shape but not 'top' shape at the moment, what can I expect from BQ and training there after? 

 EDIT: Ideally I'd like to get in with the ' secret squirrel ' units, as a ret. Sgt. acquaintance mentioned they were called now..


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## Kiltman (23 Jan 2011)

.. not sure how to take the underwhelming response, 71 views and not even a wise crack.. I can only assume that no one is either crazy enough at this advanced age to want to go back to combat arms or that your assuming I'm completely nuts and wear a hockey helmet on the bus to school.. 

 ANY advice or insight would be awesome, my testing starts shortly and I'd really like some input from experienced people..


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## KingofKeys (23 Jan 2011)

There are a few threads with similar topics. There have been a few people (as "old" as yourself, if not, much older) who wanted to serve and were in your shoes. If I come across them again, I will post the link.

Out of curiosity: what made you want to go the ROTP route?


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## Shamrock (23 Jan 2011)

First you should consider the timelines of your plan. I think you may have missed this year's application deadline, so add a year. Then add three to five for your education and training.  Assuming Canada is involved in combat ops, and you are in a deploying position at the pointy end, add a year for TMST. 

Between now and then is the smallish hurdle of the training system. The combat arms is emotionally and physically exhausting, and describing the fatigue involved in it escapes me. You will be expected to thrive under the most demanding of conditions. Rain, snow, heat, day and night. 

Is 43 too old? Not at all, but keep in mind, it's a young man's game.


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## Kiltman (23 Jan 2011)

My app. is in safely this year for ROTP.. 

 As I mentioned earlier I was an Olympic level athlete, pain and suffering as a means to end, esp. one that will keep me and whom ever is with me alive.. is not new.. but I will say that I have not done allot of ' pain side up ' training in a decade, ( P90x is kicking my ass right now mind you)..  not sure why I went with ROTP, Maybe I felt I was too old to be a private? I honestly can't say. 

 what might my advantages be going the non officer route at the moment?


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## Shamrock (23 Jan 2011)

First and most obvious being a shorter period in the training system. An officer will see 40-50 weeks combined on course, while an ncm will face 20-30. Officer courses require greater resources and are run less frequently. Most army officers will require 4 phases of training to an NCM's 3.

Deploying positions for officers are less frequent, and an officer's tenure in that position shorter.  A subalternship lasts 3 years, during which time the officer must be in the right place at the right time to go. A private is much more likely to deploy as he occupies his position longer, and is easier to move into a vacant spot. 

Garrison and deployed life are quite different for officers and NCM's. In garrison, an officer is the office sir: paperwork and such. In the field, management remains a key task, but planning and ordering tasks become prevalent. NCM's are the executors. The door kickers if you will. Without alluding to who works harder or longer, in my trade NCM's are responsible for the majority of labour and are almost assuredly finished their workday at the end of working hours; officers see longer hours but less labour. 

Although most people lie about its absence of importance, pay should be considered. Over the 4 years an officer cadet will make less than half of what a private does. While this is nullified once an officer is promoted to captain, it takes some time for the net earnings to balance out. Look up the pay scales and let me know n


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## Kiltman (23 Jan 2011)

well, i think I'll have a talk with my wife and recruiting Sgt. , I'd like to eventually be an officer, but if I'm going to be more paper pusher then solider, I think going enlisted might be a better option for now till I'm older and would have no choice but to sit and be' that guy'. 

 thanks much for that succinct quantification.. put allot of things into perspective.


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## George Wallace (23 Jan 2011)

Kiltman said:
			
		

> well, i think I'll have a talk with my wife and recruiting Sgt. , I'd like to eventually be an officer, but if I'm going to be more paper pusher then solider, I think going enlisted might be a better option for now till I'm older and would have no choice but to sit and be' that guy'.
> 
> thanks much for that succinct quantification.. put allot of things into perspective.



 ;D



			
				Sigs Pig said:
			
		

> Capitalization is the difference between helping your Uncle Jack
> off a horse, and helping your uncle jack off a horse.
> 
> ME


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## JMesh (23 Jan 2011)

Kiltman said:
			
		

> I think going enlisted



Just so you're aware, in Canada we don't call them "enlisted." That's an American term. In Canada, they are NCMs (Non-Commissioned Members).

As far as your age goes, you would by no means be the first 43 year old Private. Don't let that deter you from doing any career. Some people have enrolled as Privates or Ordinary Seaman into their fifties and still gotten a good career out of it.

To be honest, paper pushing is a part of being an officer (and a part of some NCM positions as well). Officer positions are largely managerial in nature. If you don't want to do that, you may not want to become an officer. There's no reason you ever have to; there are many who spend their entire careers as NCMs. Furthermore, it's not as simple as saying "I want to become an officer." If you really want to become an officer, apply from that from the outset. There's no guarantee that you would become an officer later on if you do apply for it (though it certainly happens, through plans like UTPNCM or CFR, [the latter you don't actually apply for; you would be selected for it]). The possibility exists, but certainly don't bank on it.

Just some things for you to consider. Whatever you decide, best of luck.


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## KingofKeys (23 Jan 2011)

> what might my advantages be going the non officer route at the moment?


As you know, ROTP will put you in an university scenario for the next few years. Obviously, this will not be the case if you choose the NCM route.



> I'd like to eventually be an officer, but if I'm going to be more paper pusher then solider


Perhaps you should have looked into this before blindly choosing the Officer route and applied for ROTP.  :


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## Kiltman (24 Jan 2011)

> Perhaps you should have looked into this before blindly choosing the Officer route and applied for ROTP.
> « Last Edit: Yesterday at 18:59:56 by KingofKeys »



Seriously? everyone has been awesome, then you come along Mr. ' perfect 20-20 hindsight guy' and act the fool.. 

When I was last in the military , way back during the C1/2 days.. the officers had more of a combat role then they apparently do now a days, at least that was what I was lead to believe as a kid out of HS.  So I applied this time around as an officer, ( I have an Univ. education and a vast amount of life experiences to offer up),  big deal, it's not like they are going to punish me for changing my application because I see myself better suited to another approach.. in fact I'm pretty sure they would appreciate me making that decision now instead of say 1/2 way through ROTP.  

 Regardless of how perfect you may think you are and apparently others should be, I came here after the fact because I did not even know this site or the people on it, existed.. So I've found it, asked questions and had some awesome insight tossed my way.. anyway I'm not going to let one asse-hat dampen what has been an awesome thread for me. 

 off to see the Sgt. in the morning, I'll update as I can.


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## KingofKeys (25 Jan 2011)

Kiltman: I never said I was perfect, nor did I expect perfection from you. 
I simply said you s_hould have looked into what you were getting into_. 
I didn't give any "awesome insight" because I don't have any. 
I am as new to all of this as you are; so, take my statement as a gentle criticism that you should have informed yourself of your desired career choice/route. 
Good luck tomorrow.


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## ballz (25 Jan 2011)

Kiltman said:
			
		

> ( *I have an Univ. education * and a vast amount of life experiences to offer up)



I'm not sure if the Direct-Entry Officer route is closed due the recruiting freezes, but are you aware that it exists, and would allow you to skip the 4 years it takes to get a university degree and jump right into the training system?

If you're not, I recommend asking your recruiter about that entry plan as well.

EDIT (to change a spelling mistake and laugh at myself): Oficcer? Really ballz? What were you thinking? Go back and get your grade 3.


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## Kiltman (25 Jan 2011)

Well, that was frustrating and infuriating beyond description. ROTP is out regardless because apparently I need to prove I'm not a glue huffing dullard.. They have my Univ and post grad  information.. BUT they won't do a damn thing till they see that I have at least 15 HS credits.. ?! forget the BSc. and the post grad.. We want HS credits.. it's mind boggling how narrow of scope these people are, is it that illogical to assume that if I have a frikin post grad that I'm a bit smarter then some grade 10 drop-out, is this too much of a logic jump? 

 I was also left with the impression that they couldn't give a damn about anything , including me, unless I had the 15 HS credits they could see.. and they did try to talk me out of NCM, without listening to WHY I was switching and offering up alternatives to my comments, the Sgt. just talked right over me in what could only be graciously considered to be apathy and sluggish, scripted repetition. 

  This may rub some of you the wrong way but maybe these recruiters are used to talking to 17/18 year old's.. they certainly, or at least this Sgt. had no clue how to listen.. As an Adult who's owned a business for the last decade or so, who's business it was to listen and offer up suggestions and give the best advice possible, BEFORE making a decision, his behaviour was inappropriate and insulting, I'm offering up my life to work for these people and they can't even talk WITH me..  

 It also appears that, from this Sgt.'s estimation, that except for Arty, anything to do with infantry was dead to NCM's for some time to come, ( a reason to consider US ARMY ).. and frankly the thought of being a military plumber, electrician or cook, ( sorry to those who are the afore mentioned trades but it's not me, I'm used to jumping off 50ft. cliffs and doing ~200kph on Skiis, I like challenging and dangerous),  has me scratching my eyes out.

 Honestly I may even try a US ARMY application with a lean toward Ranger or Stryker.. (I've got an uncle who was CO of Lachland AFB in Tx. at east I've got some steam there as a reference. ). 

 Ok rant over, I'm sure I'll have negative comments thrown back at me, but frankly I've never come across anything like that in any interview/PK/information session I've ever been involved with, on either side of the table.


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## Journeyman (25 Jan 2011)

Kiltman said:
			
		

> I'm sure I'll have negative comments thrown back at me....


Happy to oblige.   

Perhaps... the Sgt mistook you for one of those 17/18 year old's you dismissively malign. I've no doubt he routinely hears what true magnificence has wandered into his Recruiting Centre. Yes, maybe your "olympic-class athlete" spiel (I can't imagine he waited long to hear it, since you manage to work it into most of your posts) trumped the average "I kick ass at Call of Duty, dude." As with those teenagers, however, the Sgt had to deal with your sense of entitlement; the rules apply.....even to you -- if he's required to see your HS marks, get over yourself and show him your marks!

Perhaps... the Sgt _was_ talking with you, trying to get you to understand that few trades are currently open. Yes, yes, we _know_ you're a stellar athlete who's flown in a Cessna, and that mere vocations are beneath you. Believe it or not, the Recruiter was not being a prick by refusing to magically open a closed trade just for you. 

Perhaps... at this point you asked him about direct entry into a "secret squirrel unit," as your friend dimly called them. (For reference, it's not clear if you're referring to an Intelligence organization or one of the Special Operations units.....as we call them). Sorry, it's not within the Recruiter's powers to facilitate that either.

Perhaps... the Sgt was just having a bad day. It happens. It's the downside of having to employ humans in recruiting. We tried animatronic software characters, but given the recurring BS they had to put up with from arrogant, self-entitled _potential_ recruits, they tended to commit electronic suicide.


So we get it. You're amazing -- high speed/low drag -- you'd be awesome in combat, and office or technical work is clearly demeaning to you. Because you see the Canadian Forces as some sort of playground for your amusement, the Recruiting system should ignore any regulations and let you in, even if the trade is closed.

While I wouldn't presume to speak for anyone but myself, I suspect the sympathies of this site's membership lay more with the Recruiting Sergeant than yourself. As such, you are right to expect negative comments; they are well-earned.


And that ends *my* rant.


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## GAP (25 Jan 2011)

> And that ends my rant.



Uhhhh....you forgot to mention how much the USArmy will be tripping over themselves, salivating to enroll him.....you really have to hit ALL the points, he deserves full knowledge.......of....of.....ahforgetaboutit...... 8)


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## Kiltman (25 Jan 2011)

And perhaps you were not there, so your quaint wee tirade and contextualized - to -meet- my- needs examples are speculative and pedantic. 

 I'll cover the low lights as you seem to have been beside me critiquing for later dissemination. 

 Never once did I have the arrogance to walk in with a chip or attitude, I went in with elan and a positive attitude, a smile and good humour.

 When asked about Pilot, I was told there was a selection course I'd have to complete, I was asked at the time " have you a PPL or any experience?" I said  " yes i have a few hr's in a 172..", Silly me for again, being arrogant.. 

 Never once, ( I see a trend here).. was any mention of the SS made, I did however, apparently based on your concept of a recruitment individual, have the out right Audacity to suggest that " I'd like to do the urban, jump and rappel master courses if I qualify.. ", little did i realize that I've apparently become an un-welcome and noisome pest for saying such a thing.. social faux pas on my part ..  

 I never mentioned a thing about my fitness other then to answer another Sgt.'s question; " are you in shape, and issues with your body?" to which I answered, " I have no issues with my body, I am good to go Sgt. " .. the end of my apparent and ill conceived self-aggrandizing..

 "17/18 year old's you dismissively malign."... "trumped the average "I kick *** at Call of Duty, dude." wow hypocrite much.. 

  The attempt is being made TO show HS marks, but as mentioned previously ( I'm sure it was an oversight on your part given how you've apparently combed through my posts so far ), Toronto School board has one big ass centre where the WHOLE GTA's files are stored dating back to god knows when.. they have told me that it's a good 5-8 weeks to find my files..  otherwise I would have GLADLY and promptly supplied them. 

 I'm pretty sure I have an idea of the concept of talking ' with ' someone.. this was not that, sorry to be ever so contrary, but when I start to say something and 1/2 through the 3 syllable of the 2nd word I'm cut off so that he can say something inane that has no bearing on the question I'm asking at the time.. I'm pretty sure that's talking 'at' someone at very least ' over top of .. however that my be my civilian ' talk-listen-talk '  version of a discussion getting in the way..


"_Perhaps... the Sgt was just having a bad day. It happens. It's the downside of having to employ humans in recruiting. We tried animatronic software characters, but given the recurring BS they had to put up with from arrogant, self-entitled potential recruits, they tended to commit electronic suicide_."   So.. who's arrogant? I've lost the score card but it seems to be .. you.  Not only that your rude and I doubt this is any great news to you, a dullard. 




			
				Journeyman said:
			
		

> Happy to oblige.
> 
> Perhaps... the Sgt mistook you for one of those 17/18 year old's you dismissively malign. I've no doubt he routinely hears what true magnificence has wandered into his Recruiting Centre. Yes, maybe your "olympic-class athlete" spiel (I can't imagine he waited long to hear it, since you manage to work it into most of your posts) trumped the average "I kick *** at Call of Duty, dude." As with those teenagers, however, the Sgt had to deal with your sense of entitlement; the rules apply.....even to you -- if he's required to see your HS marks, get over yourself and show him your marks!
> 
> ...


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## Kiltman (25 Jan 2011)

I suppose, reading back over the posts here, with out the context I was trying to get across.. it does look like I was 'showing off' and being uber Ego guy, that was not the intent.
  What I was trying to, ( poorly), get across was that I'm not some geezer with bad knees and a 48" waist looking for some mid life crisis alternative to a big block and 700hp, I was simply trying to instil an image that I am 100% gtg, with reasonable fitness and an aggressive nature.  My goal is to be the best i can possibly be, period. There are things I want to accomplish and those include doing the hardest courses I can do, to challenge myself, which is, I'm sure what most people who enter want as well. 

 In the end, I want to be the best contributing member I can possibly be. 

 Sorry for any confusion or ill will, none was assumed or implied.. except JM.  :threat:


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## Scott (25 Jan 2011)

Kiltman said:
			
		

> I suppose, reading back over the posts here, with out the context I was trying to get across.. it does look like I was 'showing off' and being uber Ego guy, that was not the intent.
> What I was trying to, ( poorly), get across was that I'm not some geezer with bad knees and a 48" waist looking for some mid life crisis alternative to a big block and 700hp, I was simply trying to instil an image that I am 100% gtg, with reasonable fitness and an aggressive nature.  My goal is to be the best i can possibly be, period. There are things I want to accomplish and those include doing the hardest courses I can do, to challenge myself, which is, I'm sure what most people who enter want as well.
> 
> In the end, I want to be the best contributing member I can possibly be.
> ...



You were doing fine right up until the bolded part. Way to be humble and let things go.

Have it your way. I'm sure you're winning minds.

And hey: no one ever accused you of being a fat and out of shape 40-something. But you have proven that you *can* be a dink.


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## Kiltman (25 Jan 2011)

Ok, emoticons must really mean something else to the military then to every other forum I've been associated with.. 

 Emoticons are suppose to be and are generally fun, so that last comment was poking fun at the potential animosity that might be built up.. not antagonising things.. 

 Things go pear shaped around here quick.


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## SeaKingTacco (25 Jan 2011)

> wow, things go pear shaped around here right quick.



Pretty much, yes, with the right set of circumstances.


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## Kiltman (25 Jan 2011)

I certainly hit the sweet spot with this thread.. i think I'll stay away from emoticons from now on...


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## Scott (25 Jan 2011)

Then this is the last that should be said about this:

The emtoicon you used is "threaten" Just hover with your mouse over the one you used and you should see.

We are all responsible for what we post and how we post it. Tone is not easy to discern via type and so we warn people to be careful how they put things in the guidelines.

Points to remember.


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## Kiltman (25 Jan 2011)

Normally that type of emoticon is associated with ' grr' or' the one where you've got the exclamations coming out out of it.. the ' threaten' part of was to me a funny way to diffuse things..  the emoticon struck me as having two paint ball guns or those automatic nerf guns. 

 Again, taking an emoticon as a serious gesture is something that's never even crossed my mind...


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## Scott (25 Jan 2011)

Kiltman said:
			
		

> Normally that type of emoticon is associated with ' grr' or' the one where you've got the exclamations coming out out of it.. the ' threaten' part of was to me was a funny way to diffuse things, the emoticon struck me as having two paint ball guns or those automatic nerf guns, Again, taking an emoticon as a serious gesture is something that's never even crossed my mind...



Right, you didn't see the above post of mine, did you?

I am going to try and break this down as gently as possible:

I asked some of the parties involved here to back off a bit because I had contacted you via PM to try and sort this out. Then you post something that could very easily be misinterpereted given the way you spoke in previous posts. The people I asked nicely to back off (because I am trying to sort things out with you in private) now ask me WTF is going on here (rightfully so) and I look like kind of a tit. Now it's all our fault again because your superior intellect could see that it was all in jest, eh?

Dude, just stop. For the love of Jeebus, just stop. No more misunderstandings. We get it.


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## Kiltman (25 Jan 2011)

It would be best, I think, to just remove my account and my offensive threat from the site.. There doesn't appear to be any form of clear communication between myself and this forum. 

 thank you.


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## aesop081 (25 Jan 2011)

Kiltman said:
			
		

> There doesn't appear to be any form of clear communication between myself and this forum.



I wonder why rockstar.....

 :


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## Kiltman (25 Jan 2011)

For the very reason you've just demonstrated, 

I'm not here to a) antagonize and b) to be castigated, I came here for advice, received some awesome advice, had a mis understanding based on assumed attitudes, attempted to apologise with little success due to a breakdown in emoticon threat level.. tried to get past that, but found myself yet again in trouble for trying to make my way past the previous problems because, and I'm guessing at this one; I posted in the same thread?  

This site is very foreign to any other forum I've been on, things that would normally do one thing, do the opposite here.  

 it's best If i maybe once in awhile check this place out, it has awesome information on it.. I just don't think I've got the right mind set or something like that to be posting with the natives.. 

 not trying to be a dick in anyway and I'm not running away like a whipped pup, I'm just at a loss as to how to proceed when everything I've done seems to make things worse..


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## SeaKingTacco (25 Jan 2011)

Kiltman-

This is not meant sarcastically.

Your initial posts came across as lacking a certain degree of humility.  You didn't ask questions, so much as make bold statements.  You demeaned non-combat arms trade options without, apparently, one iota of an understanding of:

a) what they do; and
b) how the CF operates as a team.

By all means- join the CF.  Just realize that your past achievements will be in the past.  You will get up, every day, having to prove yourself.  No one will care about your stories (all true, I'm sure- again no sarcasm intended).  The guys and gals around you will very much judge you on your deeds and how much of a team player you are.


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## Kiltman (25 Jan 2011)

That's all I ask. 

  All my  original post was suppose to do was give a sense that I was not a  boffin, not demonstrate ego in anyway. The original post I do agree is awkward in it's approach and set up , but I think that was more due to not having any idea what kind of information might be useful or help someone help me with good advice.


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## SeaKingTacco (25 Jan 2011)

so just ask a question without all of the preamble.  Or read a bunch of the threads- there is a ton of good info here.


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## Loachman (26 Jan 2011)

Kiltman said:
			
		

> ROTP is out regardless because apparently I need to prove I'm not a glue huffing dullard.. They have my Univ and post grad  information..



You are trying to apply for ROTP and you already have a degree?


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## Scott (26 Jan 2011)

Kiltman asked me, via PM, to have his account deleted and gave me reasons similar to the above: that he seems to be the only one in step. I offered to clean up this thread and give him another shot at his "apology" but he declined.

I don't think we need to go any further with this.

Scott
Staff


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