# Is acupuncture covered?



## Jarnhamar (20 Aug 2015)

Suppose a member sustained a work related injury and acupuncture was the only form of pain relief that worked, can the CF medical system send a member to regular acupuncture appointments or is it one of those 10 visits and your done kind of things?


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## Blackadder1916 (20 Aug 2015)

According to the Canadian Forces (CF) Spectrum of Care:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-health-services-benefits-drug-coverage/comprehensive-medical-care.page#health-practitioner


> Health Practitioner Benefits
> 
> Out-Patient services of the following practitioners when prescribed by the attending physician, within the limits as follows:
> 
> ...


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## Occam (20 Aug 2015)

Don't know about elsewhere, but at CFHSU (Ottawa), there was a physiotherapist Major on staff who performed acupuncture.  He cured a particularly wicked case of tennis elbow I had that didn't respond to just about every other treatment they tried.  Super nice guy too.


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## Jarnhamar (20 Aug 2015)

I think I owe you a drink thanks blackadder! 

Occam I know the feeling.  When  I had it done I went from failing after two pull ups to squeezing off 10 no problem minutes later after treatment.


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## Cantthinkofanything (21 Aug 2015)

I'll just leave this here.....



https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/reference/acupuncture/


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## Jarnhamar (21 Aug 2015)

Cantthinkofanything said:
			
		

> I'll just leave this here.....
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/reference/acupuncture/



Good article, I had no idea acupuncture was fake.
While at physio I failed at 2 pull ups. I immediately had an acupuncture session and attempted pull ups again. Banged off 10 no problem and could have done a handful more.  I thought I had science to thank but it's obvious now I have divine intervention


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## Cantthinkofanything (21 Aug 2015)

The placebo effect keeps many people employed in this country.


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## Occam (21 Aug 2015)

Cantthinkofanything said:
			
		

> I'll just leave this here.....
> 
> https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/reference/acupuncture/



Yeah, I was like you once.  Acupuncture was right up there with voodoo medicine.

Until I injured my lower back, and ten weeks of physiotherapy did nothing.  They suggested acupuncture, and I laughed.  But I humoured them, went, and after three treatments over two weeks, I felt like a million bucks.

Years later, I suffered with tennis elbow for months.  Decided I'd had enough, went to the MIR, physio again for 8 or so weeks...nothing.  Made it worse, in fact.  Physiotherapist mentions he does acupuncture.  I'm in.  He mentions it's a different type of acupuncture than what was done on my back, and that it's going to hurt.  Sure, what the hell.  Can't remember if it was 8 or 10 rounds of acupuncture on my lower arm, wrist and hand, but it hurt like hell during the treatment - but the treatment worked when nothing else did.

It ain't smoke and mirrors if it works...science-based medicine be damned.


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## Jarnhamar (21 Aug 2015)

Cantthinkofanything said:
			
		

> The placebo effect keeps many people employed in this country.



If placebo's can make our recruits go from 2 pull ups to 10 in a matter of minutes I think you just justified it's use lol


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## PMedMoe (21 Aug 2015)

Cantthinkofanything said:
			
		

> The placebo effect keeps many people employed in this country.



And you're a paramedic??

Given that I couldn't even open your link (I'm at work), I did a little searching and found a rather good review of that website:

A Critical Review of "Science Based Medicine"


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## Cantthinkofanything (21 Aug 2015)

Selfhacked is unfortunately a haven of pseudoscience "blogging".


Yes I am a paramedic, my thesis last year in university was on the use of acupuncture but it mainly pertained to it's use in autonomic dysfunction based diseases that are being heralded as being treatable with acupuncture (ie fibromyalgia, migraine and functional disorders of the cns/pns).

If you were able to give me a physiological basis for acupuncture increasing strength I'd be all ears, there is just no scientific basis for it.

I am not attempting to start an argument, there is just at this point no quantitative evidence that acupuncture is part of a viable treatment modality in Western medicine.

I don't want to hijack this thread though, if you'd like to PM me to discuss studies on acupuncture, please feel free to do so.


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## Occam (21 Aug 2015)

Cantthinkofanything said:
			
		

> I am not attempting to start an argument, there is just at this point no quantitative evidence that acupuncture is part of a viable treatment modality in Western medicine.



Yet, you would have me believe that my back and lower arm mysteriously healed themselves.  The first time I was skeptical as all hell, and was pretty sure it wasn't going to work, so you can't claim placebo effect.

There's no scientific basis at present for a lot of things out there - we just haven't found that basis yet.


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## Cantthinkofanything (21 Aug 2015)

I'm glad it helped you, whether it be the treatment itself or placebo, I truly am. (placebo effect has little to do with the patient's skepticisim by the way)

I just cannot, as a member of the medical community, invest much confidence in a practice that has been dismissed scientifically over and over again.

If there is a physiological explanation in the future for how inserting a needle into the dermis provides long term analgesia for musculoskeletal syndromes I will embrace it.  

It's obvious that any effect elicited would be from augmentation of nociceptive noxious stimuli, not musculoskeletal inflammation relief.


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## Fishbone Jones (22 Aug 2015)

Cantthinkofanything said:
			
		

> I'm glad it helped you, whether it be the treatment itself or placebo, I truly am. (placebo effect has little to do with the patient's skepticisim by the way)
> 
> I just cannot, as a member of the medical community, invest much confidence in a practice that has been dismissed scientifically over and over again.
> 
> ...



And most noteworthy scientists of their time claimed the world was flat and sailing to close to the edge would make you fall off.

If the 'Here be dragons" didn't get you first'.

Also, and I'm not trying to dismiss your service and education, you're really, as a paramedic, the Stoker on the coal driven ship of the medical community.


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## medicineman (26 Aug 2015)

Explanation to me by my physioterrorist for how acupuncture works from a Western perspective is simply causing a localized release of cortisol into an area to reduce inflammation.  In fact, you can usually see if there is going to be a take by whether or not an inflammatory response occurs at the needle insertions.  It also messes with pain gates along sensory nerves.  I've had acupuncture used for many issues in the past with good results...and I'm a dedicated Western Medicine type guy.  They provided near immediate relief of pain and helped speed healing of some of the injuries I've incurred over the years.  Observationally, I've also seen the (often dramatic) results on post operative swelling on a number of my patients from arthroscopic surgery - not something easily achieved by placebo.

Something I've learned over the years - A SINGLE study means DIDDELEE SQUAT.  I look at the source(s), who's sponsoring them, size of the cohorts, what the actual parameters of questions asked/answered were, how the stats are played with, etc.  Just like that one paper all the anti-vaxers claim as proof positive that childhood vaccines cause autism, you have to look over the spectrum of stuff.  You can find a bajillion studies of the same thing that prove opposite results from each other...just depends on how it's run and interpreted.   BTW, placebo is good for about 1/3 of patients in any study - that much we all know.  Doesn't account for the other large pile of people this treatment modality benefits.  

 :2c:

MM


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## Palmtree (9 Jan 2019)

Did youj put in a claim for your elbow with VAC.


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