# Is CFSPDB not used to its full potential



## CFSPDB (10 Mar 2006)

Why is the  CFSPDB not  full  or at lest running to 80% of it total numbers for inmates


----------



## AmmoTech90 (10 Mar 2006)

Because there aren't enough people sent there to make it full or at 80%.

It's not a volunteer thing you know...


----------



## CFSPDB (10 Mar 2006)

NOt enough people?  I think 80%  of 25 is around 20. So where is it  we dont have enough people to send.


----------



## meni0n (10 Mar 2006)

Are you talking about manning or people who actually go there because of an offence?


----------



## George Wallace (10 Mar 2006)

CFSPDB said:
			
		

> Why is the  CFSPDB not  full  or at lest running to 80% of it total numbers for inmates


Are you insinuating that more of us should do the Crime, so we can do the time?  Just to keep the DB full?   :-[


----------



## Jungle (10 Mar 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Are you insinuating that more of us should do the Crime, so we can do the time?  Just to keep the DB full?   :-[


I suggest we start by sending CFSPDB to motivate others... maybe if MPs lead the way, others would follow...  :


----------



## Haggis (10 Mar 2006)

CFSPDB said:
			
		

> Why is the  CFSPDB not  full  or at lest running to 80% of it total numbers for inmates



Since your profile is empty, should we assume that you're posting *from * CFSPDB? ;D

Feeling a bit lonely????


----------



## Sig_Des (10 Mar 2006)

Wow...I never realized that was such a problem.

I fear I've failed in that I've neglected this ongoing situation.

meni0n, I think it's now our DUTY to go commit service offences, so that we may be part of the solution...

or wait, if it's not full capacity, maybe another solution has been working...like, the deterrent factor?


----------



## meni0n (10 Mar 2006)

Right, I'm going to trash my room asap.


----------



## CFSPDB (10 Mar 2006)

If you want to trash your room go ahead. I was trying to get across why are not  more people sentenced to deter others. Btw Sig guys are the first one  to break in DB  ;D


----------



## Sig_Des (10 Mar 2006)

CFSPDB said:
			
		

> If you want to trash your room go ahead. I was trying to get across why are not  more people sentenced to deter others. Btw Sig guys are the first one  to break in DB  ;D



Alcohol and smoke withdrawal? Probably.  :blotto:


----------



## HItorMiss (10 Mar 2006)

Des,

Remember "Every good troop spends time in jail" so I ask how good of a troop are you?   8)


----------



## Sig_Des (10 Mar 2006)

HitorMiss said:
			
		

> Des,
> 
> Remember "Every good troop spends time in jail"



"The better troops get away with it"

I'll leave it at that.


----------



## CFSPDB (10 Mar 2006)

Digger time was a promotional avenue way back when. As for with drawl  No one has addictions.......well thats what they say   and three later  the scracthing starts.


----------



## Michael OLeary (10 Mar 2006)

How long ago was "way back when"?   Was that in "the good old days"?  Or "back in the day"?


----------



## CFSPDB (10 Mar 2006)

Way back when is before 1988  but after 1975  The  good old days only apply to germany time


----------



## Michael OLeary (10 Mar 2006)

Well, in that case, I remember "way back when", and the majority of the soldiers I saw go to SDB were improved by it only with respect to deepening their resolve to achieve civilian status.

Based on my experience of hearing it from NCOs of the early 80s, I would suggest that the "urban legend" of soldiers "improved" by doing time definitely predates your chosen period for "way back when" and the time served was not for the same crimes of note in the early 80s (ex., drug use).


----------



## Armymedic (10 Mar 2006)

So let me get this straight...

Someone who has been in since around 1988, who works at the DB, is asking about why it is not being used nearly up to capacity?

Hmmm? 

Possibly because new troops don't get into trouble as severely as often. Or possibly the COs want to sort out their own problems, not push them off to others?

Would a better question be:

If we are not using it to its capacity, why do we need it?


----------



## CFSPDB (10 Mar 2006)

Based on my experience of hearing it from NCOs of the early 80s, I would suggest that the "urban legend" of soldiers "improved" by doing time definitely predates your chosen period for "way back when" and the time served was not for the same crimes of note in the early 80s (ex., drug use




 I am so sorry I don't go by hearsay. I actually work there and I do see some,not all but some soldiers do get back on the right track. I do think that a increase in use  would perhaps encourage the others to embrace the Army way.  I believe we have seen a decrease in the quality of the recruit ever sense Cornwallis was closed. CFSPDB  seems to be the last place for discipline   well  maybe  3 RCR still has it to


----------



## Michael OLeary (10 Mar 2006)

Oh, so my personal experience with soldiers going to and returning from SDB when I was a platoon commander in the 80s is heresay?

Please tell us how the CF should increase the numbers of soldiers being sent to SDB, since this is your solution to "improving" the NCO corps.


----------



## Bart Nikodem (10 Mar 2006)

Maybe we should lower capacity by about 20%, say convert some cells into storage or offices, then it will be operating at 100% capacity again. 
And if more people start getting sent there then convert the cells back.
All the best,
Bart


----------



## Gayson (10 Mar 2006)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> "The better troops get away with it"
> 
> I'll leave it at that.



The best troops get CD's.  12 years of undetected crime.   ;D


----------



## GO!!! (11 Mar 2006)

CFSPDB said:
			
		

> I am so sorry I don't go by hearsay. I actually work there and I do see some,not all but some soldiers do get back on the right track. I do think that a increase in use  would perhaps encourage the others to embrace the Army way.  I believe we have seen a decrease in the quality of the recruit ever sense Cornwallis was closed. CFSPDB  seems to be the last place for discipline   well  maybe  3 RCR still has it to



Yes, of course, the old "declining quality argument".

I'm sure that the NCOs who trained you grumbled about the poor quality of recruits too - back in 1976, and their NCOs did it to them too. 

I really have doubts as to how a medic who has "lots" of experience is able to gauge the level of discipline in my unit from his lofty perch over in the sin bin. Very perceptive.

You work with the bottom .02% of the military, most of whom are on their way out of the CF anyway - how would you know?


----------



## CFSPDB (11 Mar 2006)

I really have doubts as to how a medic who has "lots" of experience is able to gauge the level of discipline in my unit from his lofty perch over in the sin bin. Very perceptive.

You work with the bottom .02% of the military, most of whom are on their way out of the CF anyway - how would you know? 


  I was asking a question  on a open  forum  but I see by your profiel you have 7 years in So give us your in depth thoughts on  the other 98%. And as for your unit???????????/ Not all of us were the same trade we started out as. Please tell us about your experience in or working with CFSPDB if not maybe you can move on and lend you vast experience to other post /forums  who need  your knowledge.


----------



## HItorMiss (11 Mar 2006)

*Runs for his trench*

INCOMING!!!!!!!  ;D


----------



## George Wallace (11 Mar 2006)

Counter Battery Radar has been deployed


----------



## Long in the tooth (11 Mar 2006)

Great circular logic.  If we just decrease the number of doctors by 10% we'll save 10% of the health care budget.  I'm sorry, the Ontario Government already tried that.


----------



## CFSPDB (11 Mar 2006)

Worm out Grunt you are correct.  The "new" CDU concept  is not worknig out like it was hoped. I have no answers to that mud pile maybe we should just trust Ottawa to sort it out.


----------



## CFSPDB (11 Mar 2006)

You work with the bottom .02% of the military, most of whom are on their way out of the CF anyway - how would you know

  Not  quite correct. More like .01% come to CFSPDB.
 As for on the way out. Once again no  Of the last 10 in cells.

1 was released ( Officers can be keep in after )
1 was released ( contract not renewed and it was his second tiem here,no we did not get him the 1% tear drop tattoo)
8 were returned to Units as productive members of the CF
Of those 8 one is no nominated  for a award of bravery so I hope I help you understand the if not the reason we have  DB at lest the satistics of the inmate population. Feel free to add any personal experiences YOU might have  with the DB or even or even how  it could be improved I believe that what the forum here was ment for open discussion.

 And no I am not trying to slam you If I did I apologize for that right now. cheers 


 Well  at lest we have a few good ideas. Thanks to thew MOD for the P>M


----------



## aesop081 (11 Mar 2006)

CFSPDB said:
			
		

> maybe we should just trust Ottawa to sort it out.


----------



## 2 Cdo (11 Mar 2006)

Of course it isn't being used to it's "full potential" (whatever that is supposed to mean) as in todays army troops are not engaging in near the amount of bullsh*t that people my age did. Or maybe they are just not getting caught! 

Escorted a soldier there in '88 for a 180 day sentence, while doing inclearance ran into several other troops from the commando who were finishing up their 90 day sentences. All are still in, all are SNCO's or WO's now. It just wasn't that big a deal in those days.

I am curious CFSPDB what your exact job is at the prison. Your profile says you are a Cpl from the Field Amb. Your history claims lots? Are you employed as a "screw" or are you merely employed as a medic there? Do you think we should charge and sentence people more often in order to fully utilize the prisons capabilities? Or are you just bored and wish to keep yourself busier during the day?

All questions that need answering, you haven't proposed any answers to these questions yet, but have resorted to insults about time in.





> I was asking a question  on a open  forum  but I see by your profiel you have 7 years in So give us your in depth thoughts on  the other 98%. And as for your unit??/ Not all of us were the same trade we started out as. Please tell us about your experience in or working with CFSPDB if not maybe you can move on and lend you vast experience to other post /forums  who need  your knowledge.



Please inform us of your vast experience in the CF as you so eloquently asked of others!


----------



## HItorMiss (11 Mar 2006)

So CFSPDB let me get this straight, your suggesting that we send more people to Club Ed to solve a perceived discipline problem in the CF and the under use of the Pen?

Tell you what, you staff up a memo on your concerns and send it up your CofC, Hey you see a problem might as well try and be part of the solution right?

Oh and friendly word of advice, I wouldn't be picking fights based in TI on these forums, I might have only 6yrs in but you haven't a clue as to what my experience level is for those 6yrs, let alone people like GO!!!!

Then again if GO!!! takes issue with your telling him he doesn't have the TI to debate with you then I'm sure he is going to say something about it.

Oh and one last thing CFSPDB try using spell check and proof reading your post, it will make it easier for us to read what your saying.


----------



## GO!!! (11 Mar 2006)

Sooo,

You state that;

1) The only place in the CF that still has discipline is the Jail and 3 RCR. Would you care to prove that in an empirical manner? If not, I could make equally ridiculous statements like; "Only marginal soldiers are used as custodians at the jail, since it is a non-deployment/non-promotion position" and pass them off as the learned truth, whether they are or not.

2) Since the jail is not full, and you (evidently) are underworked, there must be some sort of lack of will in the CoC to send people to jail more often. I would submit that the recruiting targets have shifted the type of soldiers we are recruiting (high school grads, often with college/university) who are less likely to smoke dope and punch each other out often enough to be detained as a punishment.

3) .5% of the CF population will end up in DB - really? Given that there are about 60,000 members of the CF, this would be three hundred inmates a year - I thought you guys were'nt busy?


----------



## the 48th regulator (11 Mar 2006)

> I am curious CFSPDB what your exact job is at the prison. Your profile says you are a Cpl from the Field Amb. Your history claims lots? Are you employed as a "screw" or are you merely employed as a medic there? Do you think we should charge and sentence people more often in order to fully utilize the prisons capabilities? Or are you just bored and wish to keep yourself busier during the day?



That's a queer question considering,



			
				2 Cdo said:
			
		

> Profiles and credibility? Right, I think I will change my profile to show myself as the VCDS and post a couple of thousand posts so that I can now be taken seriously by the "old timers" on this site! : A profile can be made to say anything and number of posts does not make you an expert!
> 
> Yes, by all means lets remove anything that I don't agree/like! : Self importance of some on this site is astounding!



So are you questioning his posts and information?  Based on what angle?

Funny how you flip flop, isn't it?

dileas

tess


----------



## CFSPDB (11 Mar 2006)

DB is not  a jail but more  so a rehabilitation sight now. There have been some changes more towards the less punishment more get them back to work idea. As for being a "screw' no I work on the rehab side of things. Most of the soldiers we get have addiction issues or two which have to be dealt with when they arrive. My .05 has been changed to .002 as @ 150 + or - show up in a given year.


"Please tell us how the CF should increase the numbers of soldiers being sent to SDB, since this is your solution to "improving" the NCO corps."  
I have no idea where you got that?"???????????????????????//



) Since the jail is not full, and you (evidently) are underworked, there must be some sort of lack of will in the CoC to send people to jail more often. I would submit that the recruiting targets have shifted the type of soldiers we are recruiting (high school grads, often with college/university) who are less likely to smoke dope and punch each other out often enough to be detained as a punishment.

 You actually believe there is less off a drug problem in the CF now?
Not slamming just asking


----------



## GO!!! (11 Mar 2006)

CFSPDB said:
			
		

> You actually believe there is less off a drug problem in the CF now?



I've been in the CF for seven years, and I can honestly say that there are less drugs going around now than there were five years ago. 

I can't speak to twenty years ago, but my dad told me how he remembered the recruiters in Montreal recruiting out of the homeless shelters in the mid 70s.

We've also seen a shift to higher academic enrolment standards, with high school being mandatory (?) for nearly every trade, we are not getting the high school dropouts any more, or at least not in the same numbers as in the past.

I think the drug "problem" is more evident now than before because of the type of drugs that troops are caught for using (meth, cocaine, crack etc.) whereas in the 70s and 80s the problems were more widespread but centered on "soft" drugs like pot and acid.


----------



## CFSPDB (11 Mar 2006)

Go
  Excellent response thanks  for your insight. I would have though it was increased if anything. Makes sense what you state about the higher Education/quality I was going to see if there has ever been a study done on that have to go look around   THANKS AGAIN  CHEERS


----------



## Michael OLeary (11 Mar 2006)

CFSPDB said:
			
		

> "Please tell us how the CF should increase the numbers of soldiers being sent to SDB, since this is your solution to "improving" the NCO corps."
> 
> 
> I have no idea where you got that?"???????????????????????//




Perhaps it was something you said .....




			
				CFSPDB said:
			
		

> Why is the  CFSPDB not  full  or at lest running to 80% of it total numbers for inmates






			
				CFSPDB said:
			
		

> Digger time was a promotional avenue way back when.






			
				CFSPDB said:
			
		

> I actually work there and I do see some,not all but some soldiers do get back on the right track. *I do think that a increase in use  would perhaps encourage the others to embrace the Army way.*  I believe we have seen a decrease in the quality of the recruit ever sense Cornwallis was closed. CFSPDB  seems to be the last place for discipline   well  maybe  3 RCR still has it to


----------



## CFSPDB (11 Mar 2006)

Hmm  your right it might have been. Anyway I think this has been flogged long enough I will ask a mod  to shut it down.  I will try to be more clear in my questions  next time to avoid the fights and confusion


----------



## Michael OLeary (11 Mar 2006)

Locked.


----------



## garb811 (23 May 2018)

A very good article on the current state of affairs.  Shared in accordance with the Fair dealing provisions of the Copyright Act.



> *Canada’s last military prison costs $2M a year. About half the time, it has no prisoners*
> By Patrick Cain
> National Online Journalist, News  Global News
> 
> ...


----------



## dapaterson (23 May 2018)

Looming changes to Summary trials, stripping the power of Commanding Officers to impose a sentence of detention, will likely further reduce the number of individuals sent to Club Ed.


----------



## garb811 (23 May 2018)

I'm split on whether that is going to have an impact or not.

A big part will be answered once the Regulations which define what "service infractions" are if/when Bill C77 becomes law.  If the "informed rumour" I've heard is correct, they are going to be confined to variations on the big 5 with everything else going to courts martial.


----------



## dapaterson (23 May 2018)

Already some changes inbound (five years after legislation was approved...): https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/news/2018/05/sections-of-the-strengthening-military-justice-in-the-defence-of-canada-act-to-come-into-force-september-1-2018.html


----------



## dimsum (23 May 2018)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Looming changes to Summary trials, stripping the power of Commanding Officers to impose a sentence of detention, will likely further reduce the number of individuals sent to Club Ed.



This...is good, right?  

The most I've dealt with the justice system is a speeding ticket, but I'd like to believe that having fewer prisoners is a good thing.  Anything really serious gets dealt with in civilian/criminal court and anything not really serious is a fine/admin action, etc.  Or am I totally off the mark?


----------

