# Lynndie England - Patriot or Torturer: What do you think?



## 1feral1 (7 May 2004)

For those who dont know Lynndie, she is the 21 yr old who has made headlines throughout the world and has become a household name fo the wrong reasons.

I was reading in todasys SDT www.dailytelegraph.com.au about her, and to actually read that local trailer trash from her home town are actually supporting her.

Wow! What do I think? Personally she has singlehandedly caused the increase of more hatred against the US, along with more mistrust and possibly endangered all western hostages currently held. 

I am totally disgusted that this abuse of PWs has happened, and I am outraged at the whole event.

What happened to professionalism and pride amoung soldiers and quality leadership? Where ere the SNCOs, WOs and Officers?

Did they turn a blind eye?

I am sure heads will roll, and as for her and her colleagues who started this all, I hope a detailed courts martial, which will be publically shown will sent all envolved for a long stay at the Crowbar Hotel for many years.

I just shake my head in disgust. So much for ‘hearts and minds‘. I hope the damge can be repaired.

Regards,

Wes


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## scm77 (7 May 2004)

Torturer.  She should be punished to the full extent of the law, as well as anyone else who was involved.

Now people in the middle east are going to hate america.


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## quebecrunner (7 May 2004)

They are barbarians. They should respect human rights and the Geneva convention. I hope they gonna be punished. For me, its an act of treason against the USA: the psychological effect will be devastating and more americans will be killed and capture because of that.

I wonder...Do someone know how this thing came out? After all, we have only speculations about  the Guantanamo Bay prisoners...


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## scm77 (7 May 2004)

It came out because some moron who was there took pictures of it.  Then CBS broadcast them last week.

If you going to do something that violates international law, don‘t take pictures.


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## CDNBlackhawk (7 May 2004)

Torture is wrong, buts its no secret that every country in the world has practiced or practices torture to some extent to get information.

The ones involved should be punished to the fullist extent of the law, to me they are a disgrace.


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## NMPeters (7 May 2004)

The moron isn‘t the one who took the pictures. The moron is the one who allowed the pictures to be taken...


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## Duotone81 (7 May 2004)

Maybe they wanted their pictures taken. Like when you go on a fishing or hunting trip and you take pictures of the the fish or moose you caught. A trophy if you will.

You can take Lynndie out of the trailer park but you can‘t take the trailer park out of Lynndie.


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## RCA (7 May 2004)

"If you going to do something that violates international law, don‘t take pictures" interesting spin - If you murder someone and nobody sees, is it a murder, hmmmm.

"Now people in the middle east are going to hate america" - I guess they were just tolerated before

Think before you type, otherwise your ego make take a hit. 

So the weight of the US is going to come down on some private for the abuses of many up the chain. Sound familiar. She isn‘t the only one, and is at the absolute bottom of the food chain. And they took pictures beacuse what they thought they were doning wasn‘t wrong, and even if it might have been they won‘t get caught.

The **** has hit the fan and the spray is going to stick to alot of people, a few who probably don‘t desaervew it, a scrafices are going to be amade for public percepetion.


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## Brad Sallows (7 May 2004)

"Foolish" and "cruel", perhaps.  This stuff was already investigated.  Apparently the first press release that an investigation was in progress was 16 Jan.


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## Jarnhamar (7 May 2004)

I think it‘s obvious the soldiers were posing in the pictures. I mean smiling like a kid in a candy store beside a pile of naked bodies with a thumbs up? They knew they were signing their own death warrants so to speak.
RCA had a great point. Were seeing fall out at the very bottom level but the whole chain of command is responsible. I watched on TV how the red cross went to the prison months ago, saw what was going on and repeatedly reported it to the US armies chain of command (It‘s against one of their rules to speak publically with what they find in prisons etc.. without first speaking to those responsible or something)

I have to disagree with you on one point however RCA. You‘ve said 
"And they took pictures beacuse what they thought they were doning wasn‘t wrong" I cannot believe a trained soldier, especially from a western army who has the spotlight on EVERY action they take in iraq, would think this is ok. If a new recruit to the army or an army cadet see‘s something wrong with this type of behavior how can a trained soldier in a combat zone not? If there is a reason it‘s beyond my reasoning.

I really do hope the fallout goes up the chain of command as well and we don‘t find a few privates and corporals taking the full brunt of punishment.


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## 1feral1 (7 May 2004)

Good one Ghost. 

But I reckon the Enlisted will take it hard, with gaol time, and dishonourables, while the the LTCOLs, MGENs and the brass hats will get re-assigned, and have a slight repremand on their files.

Thats how it always is, look at Somalia for example.


Regards,

Wes


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## Michael Dorosh (7 May 2004)

> Originally posted by Ghost778:
> [qb] I think it‘s obvious the soldiers were posing in the pictures. I mean smiling like a kid in a candy store beside a pile of naked bodies with a thumbs up? They knew they were signing their own death warrants so to speak.
> RCA had a great point. Were seeing fall out at the very bottom level but the whole chain of command is responsible. I watched on TV how the red cross went to the prison months ago, saw what was going on and repeatedly reported it to the US armies chain of command (It‘s against one of their rules to speak publically with what they find in prisons etc.. without first speaking to those responsible or something)
> 
> ...


German soldiers on the Eastern Front routinely had their pictures taken with "partisans" hanging from trees, or Jewish civilians being abused in the streets of small villages and large towns alike. 

Why?

They didn‘t think they were doing anything wrong.  They were of the opinion the people they were fighting were sub-human (untermenschen) and that they were doing their part to make the world a better place.

This is obviously what the smiling 21 year old rocket scientists in the prison were thinking when they posed with their captives.  They were just as proud of what they were doing as the German soldiers killing "bolsheviks" in Russia.

War is about dehumanization of the enemy; I agree with Infanteer et al that that is a necessary part of mental conditioning of soldiers, but the mark of the civilized soldier is knowing where, when and how to draw the line.

I actually advocated the death sentence for the jailors on another forum; that was probably over the top but certainly they need to be made an example of.

I notice Rumsfeld took full responsiblity on CNN today.  Good for him.


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## muskrat89 (7 May 2004)

I have a semi-related question - how wise was it to have Iraqi POWs watched over by female guards?

Was it logistically unavoidable? A case of "Too bad, you lost" ?  I‘ve heard a lot of civilians (friends/co-workers) comment on this, but haven‘t seen it batted around by pundits like us..

You used to hear how (female)troops stationed in Mideast countries were required to respect the area‘s customs by covering up, etc.


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## Mo` fella (8 May 2004)

Michael Dorosh, the problem I have with your arguement is that unlike those German soldiers in WW2, Lyndsie-baby and her crew of genius friends friends knew better. You see, what people are missing here is the fact that these folks were MPs, and one of the roles of MPs is prisoner handling. If anyone knew something was wrong it was these people.

incedentaly, I heard one of PFC England‘s relatives saying in a press conference that she didn‘t actually work with the prisoners, she only booked them. What this implies to me is, when the dog leash/golden shower activities got started she actually got out of her office and came down into the cells area to join in on the fun!

And now, I understand pte England has been home for a while now. Not in connection with anything discipline-wise, but through that well known, tried and true method that servicewomen over there in Iraq use to get a quick ticket home: She got pregnant and is now 5 months along. The proud father is another of the accused that appears in some of the pictures, whom Pte England refers to as her "fiance."

How sweet, eh? When they get married they‘ve got some good material to start off a really interesting wedding album.

I also am glad Secretary Rumsfeld admitted responsibility, and I‘m also glad Sen McCain gave Rumsfeld the shellacking he deserved.

My first post. Bad subject to start with. Hi everybody.


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## Michael Dorosh (8 May 2004)

> Originally posted by Mo‘ fella:
> [qb] Michael Dorosh, the problem I have with your arguement is that unlike those German soldiers in WW2, Lyndsie-baby and her crew of genius friends friends knew better. You see, what people are missing here is the fact that these folks were MPs, and one of the roles of MPs is prisoner handling. If anyone knew something was wrong it was these people.
> 
> incedentaly, I heard one of PFC England‘s relatives saying in a press conference that she didn‘t actually work with the prisoners, she only booked them. What this implies to me is, when the dog leash/golden shower activities got started she actually got out of her office and came down into the cells area to join in on the fun!
> ...


Welcome to the Little Black Devil!  Hope the weather is ok in Winnipeg.

But the Germans "knew better" too - they were convinced what they were doing was acceptable and that is the parallel.  We have no real way of knowing what those MPs thought, but the fact they are smiling and posing for pictures tells us that they aren‘t trying to hide any wrong doing, or even thinking twice about it.

They may have been ordered to treat the prisoners as such, maybe the prisoners admitted to being executioners for Saddam and the jailors took it upon themselves, who knows - but for some reason, they feel no shame about what they are doing.

The question is - where does that conviction come from?  What convinced them that the Geneva Convention and all their military training didn‘t apply anymore?  

Sixty years later we still have no idea how ten million people could be exterminated by the Germans and their allies, one hopes that getting to the bottom of this travesty will be a little easier, and that this has been nipped in the bud...but evidence is starting to point out that maybe it will be otherwise.

I guess we‘re all on the sidelines and will be told what others feel we need to be told.


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## Mo` fella (8 May 2004)

[  





> They may have been ordered to treat the prisoners as such, maybe the prisoners admitted to being executioners for Saddam and the jailors took it upon themselves, who knows - but for some reason, they feel no shame about what they are doing.
> 
> The question is - where does that conviction come from?  What convinced them that the Geneva Convention and all their military training didn‘t apply anymore?


Thanks Michael,...the weather is rotten here! Its always about 10 degrees colder than Caglary.

I guess there are two ways of looking at this. First, that Mil int or civilian int contractors had control of the prison and staff, and convinced staff what they were doing was right, that they had to break the prisoners down for interogation, and to disregard the Geneva Conventions. The Chairman of the Joint Cheifs today admitted that the Int ops had "tactical control" in the prison over the guards.

The other possibility is a total breakdown in leadership in that MP brigade from the bottom up. Some of the featured heroes in those pictures were SERGEANTS. And I see the fired Commander of that MP brigade, that bohemoth she-general Janis Kar-something is spinning her story on the talk show curcuit and her lawyer is giving sound bites on how honourable she is.

I still think England is a disgrace should be punished of course, but like the old saying goes; ‘There are no bad soldiers, just bad leaders...‘

 if these specimens from pte England up to the top really want to get their hands on the insurgents, give them a rifle and flak vest and send them to Falluja with the Infantry and tankers.


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## devil39 (8 May 2004)

> Originally posted by Mo‘ fella:
> [qb] [
> 
> 
> ...


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## Infanteer (8 May 2004)

She has undermined the efforts of many GI‘s who have performed their duties honorably.  For that, her and the rest of those idiots in the pictures should be serverly punished.

But, Michael Dorosh is right.  The fact that they were so brazen in committing these means there was tacit concent up the chain.  Something similar to "Shoot ‘em between the skirt and the flip-flops".  For that, senior leadership must be held accountable (something that wasn‘t followed through when our own little mess broke out).

For a good little read on the subject, check out "Lament for an Army" by Lt. Col. John English.


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## muskrat89 (8 May 2004)

Snr NCOs and up should be charged with negligence or something similar. The rest of those idiots should be charged with being colossally(sp) stupid..

I never had to have a specific class to tell me not to treat prisoners that way. I did have one that taught me the difference between a lawful command, and unlawful commands.

The whole thing is an abhorration...


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## Bert (8 May 2004)

The incident is really the worst public news to affect world view and American operations.

To the muslim male, there is no greater humilitation to be degraded like this by a female.
To the Iraqi and greater population, by a female American soldier.  Interesting these pictures came out and where given the most exposure.

Its fine for the Americans to take the moral high ground undertaking the Iraqi operations, but this really undermines American attempts to gain the trust of the locals in surrounding countries. The moral high ground stool was kicked out from under them.

Aibeit, the general use of humilitation may be a tool many intelligence/interrogation organizations around the world use and likely there is no country or organization employing interrogation techniques can claim the moral high ground either.  Its just this incident will have unsettling ramifications in the region.


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## Paul F (8 May 2004)

Did you hear this so called soldier‘s sister defending her? It went something to the effect of "She didn‘t do what she did in those pictures. It was all posed". What a scumbag. Now she is reportedly 5 months pregnant with the child of one of the other soldiers who was charged with the abuse. How is it possible that these 2 were even allowed to reproduce?


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## Garry (8 May 2004)

so, we put 150,000 teenagers in a country with guns, and we‘re surprised that a few of them acted stupid?

Of those 150,00, we‘re surprised that a few sargents were sadistic b@st@rds?

The chain of command worked. The dummies were caught, and dealt with. The only question in my mind was were they (at General/Political level)correct  to cover it up? I think they were wrong to try to cover it up- too many knew.

Another fine Army screwed by dummies.

Cheers-Garry


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## logau (8 May 2004)

> Originally posted by Wesley H. Allen, CD:
> [QB] For those who dont know Lyndsie, she is the 21 yr old who has made headlines throughout the world and has become a household name fo the wrong reasons.......
> 
> Must defend my grandfather‘s Army here for a minute
> ...


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## Jungle (8 May 2004)

> Originally posted by Garry:
> [qb] so, we put 150,000 teenagers in a country with guns, and we‘re surprised that a few of them acted stupid?
> 
> Of those 150,00, we‘re surprised that a few sargents were sadistic b@st@rds?
> ...


I agree with Garry. The events were reported to the CofC, are being investigated and will be dealt with, and the process began even before the evidence was published in the media... Where‘s the problem ??? They are doing much better than we were immediately after our thing in Somalia...

The issue there is not one of Leadership, but one of personal values and ethics by those who were involved.
I admire Mr Rumsfeld for taking responsibility, none of our politicians would have the balls to do that. I hope he stays in his job, and I am sure he will gain the respect of many in the US Military.


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## Scoobie Newbie (8 May 2004)

I wonder if they will lose a regiment over this?


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## Superman (8 May 2004)

I know this isnt the best time... but take a look at this persons view of Guantanamo Bay... I saw this little cartoon a long time ago and found it quite entertaining.

 http://www.stickdeath.com/frameset.htm 

Go to that site and then find the movie that is called The Carrot Patch


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## devil39 (8 May 2004)

> Originally posted by Jungle:
> [qb]
> 
> I admire Mr Rumsfeld for taking responsibility, none of our politicians would have the balls to do that. I hope he stays in his job, and I am sure he will gain the respect of many in the US Military. [/qb]


While I too admire Sec Def Rumsfeld, I believe he will be gone soon.  

As stated in another post, Sec Def is responsible for what is supposedly a very poor working relationship between Sec Def and the Pentagon.

Sec Def messed with the Pentagon estimates of troop numbers to fit his agenda.  The failure of the American Army to go in with the numbers they initially requested, due to Sec Def meddling, is likely responsible for the consequent failure to complete the security and safety requirements of post war Iraq.  In my mind, the Pentagon is the likely centre of excellence for "Theatre Strategic" and "Operational" level estimates and planning.  Not the office of the Sec Def with his technology agenda. 

The current Abu Ghraib atrocity has occured on the Sec Def‘s watch.  No doubt a not so tenuous link can probably be made between the shortage of troops, the increase in casualties, and the consequent stress and frustration of the troops.

The Sec Def, once he resigns, should read Robert Leonhard‘s "Principles of War for the Information Age".  Guaranteed his military experts in the Pentagon have.


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## Scoobie Newbie (8 May 2004)

Congress should have known when he knew.


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## willy (8 May 2004)

Man faces charges for shower photos of soldiers
Associated Press

WALNUT CREEK, Calif. â â€ A former National Guard commander accused of photographing naked female U.S. soldiers as they showered at Iraq‘s Abu Ghraib prison faces legal proceedings, officials said.

Capt. Leo Merck, 32, of Fremont, Calif., allegedly took the photos Nov. 12 and was turned in the next day by the three women.

Merck and the women were part of the 870th Military Police Company of Pittsburg, which patrolled parts of the same prison where other U.S. soldiers photographed their humiliating treatment of naked Iraqi prisoners.

Soldiers from the 870th passed through the army‘s Fort Lewis in Washington state last month after leaving Iraq, where they served on active duty for just over a year. Merck has been ordered to return to Fort Lewis to face legal action.

Officials at Fort Lewis said they didn‘t know his whereabouts. Calls to his home in Fremont were not returned.

A spokeswoman for Merck‘s local National Guard company said Friday he will face "the process in which soldiers are held accountable under the Uniform Code of Military Justice." She did not say whether Merck would face a court-martial.

Earlier this week, the Contra Costa Times reported that Merck, an accountant in civilian life, had been stripped of his command and could face a dishonourable discharge or court-martial.

First of all, WOW.  That prison is ****ed up.  Secondly, anyone else see any parallells here?  In a way, the only difference between the victims of the two incidents is their status as either US troops or PWs.  If they nail this guy, then it sure puts a serious damper on any argument against punishing Englund, et. al.


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## Spr.Earl (9 May 2004)

US soldiers ‘seen raping woman‘ in new jail photos
By Julian Coman in Washington and Colin Freeman in Baghdad
(Filed: 09/05/2004) 


America was braced last night for new allegations of torture in Iraq after military officials said that photographs apparently showing US soldiers beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death and having sex with a female PoW were about to be released.

The officials told the US television network NBC that other images showed soldiers "acting inappropriately with a dead body". A videotape, apparently made by US personnel, is said to show Iraqi guards raping young boys.


Donald Rumsfeld, the US defence secretary, had given warning that the worst was yet to come when he gave evidence to the Senate armed services committee on Friday. He said he had looked at the full array of unedited photographs from the Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad and found them "hard to believe".

"There are other photos that depict incidents of physical violence towards prisoners, acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhumane," said Mr Rumsfeld, offering his "deepest apology" to anyone abused.

As international anger continued to grow over the Americans‘ behaviour, one of the seven soldiers facing possible court martial for abusing detainees revealed that she did not read, or even see, a copy of the Geneva Convention until two months after she was charged. Specialist Sabrina Harman, 26, said she now understood that it was regularly breached at Abu Ghraib. "I read the entire thing, highlighting everything the prison is in violation of. There‘s a lot," she said.

Harman was accused earlier this year of a series of offences, including attaching wires to a hooded prisoner standing on a box, who was told he would be electrocuted if he fell off.

The claims made by Harman, who is confined to quarters in Baghdad awaiting trial, contradict US army assurances that all soldiers are familiar with the Geneva Convention.

She said that in the area where suspected insurgents were held, army and intelligence officers "made the rules as they went". Her own unit, based in Maryland, was not trained in internment duties. "The Geneva Convention was never posted and none of us remember taking a class to review it."

Her comments, made in an e-mail published by the Washington Post yesterday, came as members of her unit tried to offset some of the responsibility for mistreating prisoners - pictures of which have caused fury in the Arab world.

Harman‘s mother, Robin, said her daughter, who had taken pictures in Abu Ghraib as evidence of mistreatment, had been made a scapegoat.

In the e-mails, Harman - a former pizza parlour assistant manager - said her job at the jail was to soften prisoners before interrogation. "They would bring in one to several prisoners at a time, already hooded and cuffed," she said. "The [military police] job was to keep them awake - make it **** so they would talk."

Some would be stripped, searched and made to stand or kneel for hours. "If the prisoner didn‘t give what they wanted, then it was all taken away until [military intelligence] decided."

Maj Gen Geoffrey Miller, the US army commander now in charge of Abu Ghraib, said the military would continue to run the jail, despite calls from some US officials to close it.

"Our interrogation teams have to ensure they can get the best intelligence, but within the requirements of the Geneva Convention," he said. "We may have made mistakes in the past, but I will guarantee you we will fix those mistakes."

"¢ Soldiers in the Queen‘s Lancashire Regiment, some of whose troops have been accused of torturing Iraqi prisoners of war, have been ordered by senior officers to hand over every photograph they took while in Iraq.

The regiment is at the centre of a Royal Military Police investigation after the Daily Mirror printed pictures, now widely thought to be posed, of soldiers apparently beating up and urinating on a PoW last year. Officers want the troops‘ photographs to prevent potentially damaging images appearing in the media, and to compare them with the Mirror‘s pictures to check authenticity.

"¢ The Ministry of Defence confirmed that soldiers from the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers were facing charges over abuse of prisoners in Iraq. Military police launched an inquiry last year following the discovery of pictures appearing to show Iraqis being forced to commit sexual acts.

 7 May 2004: Treated like a dog by US guard 
 2 April 2003: US ‘will adhere‘ to Geneva Convention  
 27 March 2003: Why there are two sides to every picture  


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## Spr.Earl (9 May 2004)

After the last weeks events and reading various sources of what has happened and what is or may come to light could it be vengeance because of 9/11 over riding common sense,training or a critical lack of training when it comes to a Foe with in the U.S. Military?

As of now I think Dubya,Rumsfeld and the J.C.S. are responsible and Dubya‘s apology was only made to the King of Jordan not to the people of Iraq and with every move they try to dig them selves out it is piling on twice as much.

I for one feel sorry for Maj.Baker,even though he can be a royal pain in the bum sometimes       and the rest of the U.S. Military who are being tared with the same brush and hope that those of us who post here remember that we had our mini Abu Ghaib in Somalia and I remenber how ashamed and angry I felt when all became public and the comments made to me at the time and I just ask that you think before you cast your stone.


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## Infanteer (9 May 2004)

Is it me or are US military police units just full of misfits and retards?


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## winchable (9 May 2004)

It certainly sounds like this second wave of photos (Video?) is going to make the first ones look like a GI trip to Disneyland.

I truly, truly feel sorry for the HUGE majority of US soldiers who have done nothing wrong at all and who are probably going to suffer as a result of the mistakes of the ignorant, slack jawed, few.

It‘s never right when the majority suffers for the trespasses of the few. (Unless it‘s Pte. Bloggins who screws up at inspection again)


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## 1feral1 (9 May 2004)

Singlehandedly these few unprofessional losers, have caused an real increased danger of fellow coalition soldiers, and increased the hatred for their country and the west throughout the arab world.

With this hate generated by these unforgiving events, even westerner held captive now (and later on civvy or military may be REALLY tortured, and then killed all because of lack of leadership, proper supervision, and proper trg, and the passing of info. 

There is not a doubt in my mind that many US citizens ( and other westerners) will now not support the war or the Bush govt, and the continued ‘war against the west‘ will rage even more intensly. I sure hope I am wrong, but the damage done is deeper than we all currently phathom.

Lets hope pers higher up the chain burn for this too.

Regards,

Wes


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