# It's Tough But



## daftandbarmy (7 Oct 2022)

OK, I'm no recruiting expert, but this new RCMP campaign seems a bit depressing....


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## Edward Campbell (7 Oct 2022)

I actually think it's good, maybe even very good ... I suspect it appeals to the sort of the people they really need and want.


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## Humphrey Bogart (7 Oct 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> OK, I'm no recruiting expert, but this new RCMP campaign seems a bit depressing....


I love a little PTSD in my cornflakes in the morning!


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## daftandbarmy (7 Oct 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> I actually think it's good, maybe even very good ... I suspect it appeals to the sort of the people they really need and want.



If they want martyrs, I think this is a great way to go


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## daftandbarmy (7 Oct 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I love a little PTSD in my cornflakes in the morning!



That's exactly what I said to my wife when I saw it on TV. You and I can't hang out anymore


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## medicineman (7 Oct 2022)

At least they're not sugar coating it...


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## Humphrey Bogart (7 Oct 2022)

medicineman said:


> At least they're not sugar coating it...


Nah!  I like when my overlords lie to me 😁


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## medicineman (7 Oct 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Nah!  I like when my overlords lie to me 😁


...there's no life like it....


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## Kat Stevens (7 Oct 2022)

medicineman said:


> ...there's no life like it....


... and not much after it.


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## KevinB (7 Oct 2022)

medicineman said:


> ...there's no life like it....


Technically true…


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## Remius (7 Oct 2022)

I thought it was pretty good. 

It is a very honest targeted campaign.


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## mariomike (7 Oct 2022)

Tell people what they are getting into.

"That wasn't in the brochure!" ☺

Especially if they will be working 9-1-1 for the next 35 years.


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## lenaitch (7 Oct 2022)

I actually like it too.  Too much police recruiting material focuses on 'you can help you community', 'you can become commissioner!' and other such soft statements, then too many recruits realize that they have to deal with people at their worst and people who don't really like them.


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## Booter (7 Oct 2022)

🤐


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## RedFive (7 Oct 2022)

The ironic thing here is this campaign is created and funded by our union because they have heard the membership complain of poor recruitment, staffing and retention and the RCMP's utter failure to make any meaningful improvements in those areas, so now our union dues are paying for what should be the job of the RCMP/Government of Canada.

It's created some spirited conversations in the various group chats I'm a part of.


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## mariomike (7 Oct 2022)

They mentioned teamwork.

Of course, being a team player is important.

There was no mention of partners. Are RCMP patrol officers assigned a permanent  partner to ride with?


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## brihard (7 Oct 2022)

@RedFive beat me to it. The RCMP union created these.

Beautiful shot of Grey Mountain with Whitehorse in the background at 0:30. That’s incredible country up there.



mariomike said:


> They mentioned teamwork.
> 
> Of course, being a team player is important.
> 
> There was no mention of partners. Are RCMP patrol officers assigned a permanent  partner to ride with?


Hah! No.


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## mariomike (7 Oct 2022)

Guess I watched too much Car 54 and Adam-12


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## Colin Parkinson (7 Oct 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I actually like it too.  Too much police recruiting material focuses on 'you can help you community', 'you can become commissioner!' and other such soft statements, then too many recruits realize that they have to deal with people at their worst and people who don't really like them.


Lets hire people with a degree in criminology, but have never actually met any. I advise people who want to go into policing to become mall cops for a bit, then you get a taste of street level policing before spending wads on a education for a career you dislike.


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## RedFive (7 Oct 2022)

Even in the largest Detachment of the force, I ride alone unless I'm coaching a recruit. Some units ride two to a car, but that usually has to do with being short on specific kinds of cars (surveillance vehicles or the gang squad Tahoes with steel bumpers the the gang bangers love to play bumper cars with).


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## brihard (7 Oct 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Lets hire people with a degree in criminology, but have never actually met any. I advise people who want to go into policing to become mall cops for a bit, then you get a taste of street level policing before spending wads on an education for a career you dislike.


Speaking as a cop with a crim degree, most people taking crim don’t want to be and won’t become cops.


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## OldSolduer (7 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> Speaking as a cop with a crim degree, most people taking crim don’t want to be and won’t become cops.


But find "gainful" employment as talking heads for the local media.


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## PPCLI Guy (7 Oct 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> I actually think it's good, maybe even very good ... I suspect it appeals to the sort of the people they really need and want.


I agree.  I think it speaks to a generation that is searching for meaning rather than money (ok...some of them)


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## brihard (7 Oct 2022)

Next time I’m on campus I’ll have to swing by the department offices… They have a cork board where crim grads have come back and posted their business cards. Kinda cool seeing what’s out there.


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## brihard (7 Oct 2022)

PPCLI Guy said:


> I agree.  I think it speaks to a generation that is searching for meaning rather than money (ok...some of them)


The money ain’t bad either. Major’s pay at three years in, and that’s before OT.

EDIT: checked again, a few thousand bucks short… But you’ll make that in OT without even trying


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## Remius (7 Oct 2022)

To be honest I think Cops should have varied backgrounds.  Finance, law, IT or computer science, etc etc.  Gives the force a wealth of background and allows some degree of spécialisation to leverage later in a career.


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## daftandbarmy (7 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> To be honest I think Cops should have varied backgrounds.  Finance, law, IT or computer science, etc etc.  Gives the force a wealth of background and allows some degree of spécialisation to leverage later in a career.



And 6ft 2in tall with a great left hook


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## RedFive (7 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> To be honest I think Cops should have varied backgrounds.  Finance, law, IT or computer science, etc etc.  Gives the force a wealth of background and allows some degree of spécialisation to leverage later in a career.


Some of the most helpful members I've ever worked with have come from finance, business, or tech backgrounds and showed up with life experience and an ability to talk to people. In return, with my military/tactical background I've been able to help them with their tactics or weapon manipulations and articulating using law, policy and the Incident Management Intervention Model. You know who has never been able to help me with their education? The people with Crim degrees.

That's not a knock against them all the ones I know are solid members. But a knowledge of the broken windows theory or Sir Robert Peel's principles of policing is not helpful to me as a GD cop in the big city. Most of those principles were used to create RCMP policy in one way or another and form the basis of our service standards in any case. Being able to talk to people, use a reasonable amount of force, help me draft a search warrant for a phone, or sort out a convoluted fraud case are helpful. Perhaps I'll come to lean on the Crim degree members later on in my career.


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## mariomike (7 Oct 2022)

Life expreience before you join an organization is great. On the other hand, perhaps younger recruits are be more "moldable".

At any rate, to get that 70% pension., older you join, older you gotta be to collect and enjoy it.


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## daftandbarmy (7 Oct 2022)

RedFive said:


> Some of the most helpful members I've ever worked with have come from finance, business, or tech backgrounds and showed up with life experience and an ability to talk to people. In return, with my military/tactical background I've been able to help them with their tactics or weapon manipulations and articulating using law, policy and the Incident Management Intervention Model. You know who has never been able to help me with their education? The people with Crim degrees.
> 
> That's not a knock against them all the ones I know are solid members. But a knowledge of the broken windows theory or Sir Robert Peel's principles of policing is not helpful to me as a GD cop in the big city. Most of those principles were used to create RCMP policy in one way or another and form the basis of our service standards in any case. Being able to talk to people, use a reasonable amount of force, help me draft a search warrant for a phone, or sort out a convoluted fraud case are helpful. Perhaps I'll come to lean on the Crim degree members later on in my career.



But... but... but... statistics! 









						Essentials of Statistics for Criminology and Criminal Justice
					






					us.sagepub.com


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## brihard (7 Oct 2022)

RedFive said:


> You know who has never been able to help me with their education? The people with Crim degrees.
> 
> Perhaps I'll come to lean on the Crim degree members later on in my career.



Again, speaking as one, you will not. Part of why I’m back in school, I guess. The crim degree is paper on the wall when you’re generally expected to have paper on the wall. It was interesting, but doesn’t offer much that tangibly carries over.



Remius said:


> To be honest I think Cops should have varied backgrounds.  Finance, law, IT or computer science, etc etc.  Gives the force a wealth of background and allows some degree of spécialisation to leverage later in a career.



The RCMP is early into driving a much bigger wedge between contract and federal policing. It’s recognize that contract postings are a barrier to federal recruitment. Why would a chartered accountant want to roll the dice on going to northern Manitoba for six years? There’s initial work being done on a separate federal intake stream.

There’s also a new category of civilian criminal investigators beginning to roll out. They’re targeting people with backgrounds in computer science, accounting, cyber security, and such. They won’t be armed and badged but will have peace officer status, be able to write warrants, etc. the first cohort are already on the job. It’s a necessary and appropriate move towards professionalization of federal policing.


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## PPCLI Guy (7 Oct 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> And 6ft 2in tall with a great left hook


Why would they deliberately hire short people?


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## brihard (7 Oct 2022)

PPCLI Guy said:


> Why would they deliberately hire short people?


We fit in cheaper cars.


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## daftandbarmy (7 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> Again, speaking as one, you will not. Part of why I’m back in school, I guess. The crim degree is paper on the wall when you’re generally expected to have paper on the wall. It was interesting, but doesn’t offer much that tangibly carries over.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Finally, the Canadian FBIA (eh?)


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## Remius (7 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> Again, speaking as one, you will not. Part of why I’m back in school, I guess. The crim degree is paper on the wall when you’re generally expected to have paper on the wall. It was interesting, but doesn’t offer much that tangibly carries over.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The team I am on is actually helping to get that that program rolled out.  Not without its challenges but a good step in that direction.


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## lenaitch (7 Oct 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Lets hire people with a degree in criminology, but have never actually met any. I advise people who want to go into policing to become mall cops for a bit, then you get a taste of street level policing before spending wads on a education for a career you dislike.


Mall cops, retail sales, I don't care so long as it is some experience in dealing with people; both publicly and organizationally.  The preference (by some services) to get applicants with a straight line from mother's milk to public education to post secondary is resulting in a lot of applicants with minimal life skills.


mariomike said:


> Life expreience before you join an organization is great. On the other hand, *perhaps younger recruits are be more "moldable*".
> 
> At any rate, to get that 70% pension., older you join, older you gotta be to collect and enjoy it.


Nope - they know it all.


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## lenaitch (7 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> The team I am on is actually helping to get that that program rolled out.  Not without its challenges but a good step in that direction.


A good initiative.  I would expect more personnel changeover over time.  With (for want of a better term), broadly trained cops, if those that get into more specialized work either tire of it, get burned out, tired of the hours, etc. they can easily move to other areas of the Service, go back to patrol, etc. or move on to climb the ladder.  With specific-skill personnel hired for a particular role, their mobility is much more limited, and their pay grid may not always be competitive enough to keep them moving to industry (although pension and benefits are a solid attractant). My former service doesn't have the contract-federal dichotomy but has civilianized several position in forensic identification, operational IT and forensic audit.  If you get somebody that stays in for the long haul, cool, but there has been some movement when people realize they'll be doing that same damned thing for the next 35 years.

Part of it was to save money, but it hasn't always been successful; particularly when they created so-called hybrid staffing with a given spot being open to sworn or civilian so you end up with a section with a mix of sworn and civilian folks doing the same thing.  There have already been challenges on the basis of pay equity and the employer tried to argue 'police factors' such as deplorability, use-of-force, etc. and in at least one case that I'm aware of the arbitrator didn't buy it.


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## RedFive (8 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> The RCMP is early into driving a much bigger wedge between contract and federal policing. It’s recognize that contract postings are a barrier to federal recruitment. Why would a chartered accountant want to roll the dice on going to northern Manitoba for six years? There’s initial work being done on a separate federal intake stream.


The main reason I've chosen to stay with the RCMP given all the nonsense in Surrey is the opportunity for my two holy grail positions in Policing.

Tactical Flight Officer, the member in the back seat of the helicopters calling the shots, and FSOC Border Integrity. I don't like my chances for either.


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## brihard (8 Oct 2022)

RedFive said:


> The main reason I've chosen to stay with the RCMP given all the nonsense in Surrey is the opportunity for my two holy grail positions in Policing.
> 
> Tactical Flight Officer, the member in the back seat of the helicopters calling the shots, and FSOC Border Integrity. I don't like my chances for either.


Oh dude. Every time C.B. posts his TFO photos I’m so jealous. What a job that would be. See if you can get a spot in an auto theft unit; my understanding is they work with Air 1 a whole ton.

Are you dead set on staying out west? The tricky part with Fed is getting in. Once you’re fed, getting over to BI isn’t a super big deal. Obviously the pickier you are about location, the harder.


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## SeaKingTacco (8 Oct 2022)

RedFive said:


> The main reason I've chosen to stay with the RCMP given all the nonsense in Surrey is the opportunity for my two holy grail positions in Policing.
> 
> Tactical Flight Officer, the member in the back seat of the helicopters calling the shots, and FSOC Border Integrity. I don't like my chances for either.


Ummm….we are hiring Air Combat Systems Officers, ATM.

I have just over 2000hrs doing that sort of work in the back of helicopter.

Just sayin…


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## Good2Golf (8 Oct 2022)

RedFive said:


> Tactical Flight Officer, the member in the back seat of the helicopters calling the shots, and FSOC Border Integrity. I don't like my chances for either.





SeaKingTacco said:


> Ummm….we are hiring Air Combat Systems Officers, ATM.
> 
> I have just over 2000hrs doing that sort of work in the back of helicopter.
> 
> Just sayin…



But in either case, you’d have to tolerate deal with pilots…uuugh. 😖


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## SeaKingTacco (8 Oct 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> But in either case, you’d have to tolerate deal with pilots…uuugh. 😖


Oh, I managed.


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## Haggis (8 Oct 2022)

Back on topic, I like the ad.  It starts off a bit dark, but ends by showing a brighter side of the job - personal satisfaction.

The real disappointment is that it's a union ad, not an RCMP ad.  That being said, I dare my union to do better.


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## mariomike (8 Oct 2022)

I wonder what the age of the average recruit is. 

In our town, you can join the  9-1-1 services at 18.


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## Haggis (8 Oct 2022)

mariomike said:


> I wonder what the age of the average recruit is.


For my Agency, based on the last few classes I've taught, the average age is 18-55.   Some are starting life, others are on a second career.  The oldest recruit I recall was 58.


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## mariomike (8 Oct 2022)

Haggis said:


> The oldest recruit I recall was 58.



The retirement parties must be interesting.


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## RedFive (8 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> Oh dude. Every time C.B. posts his TFO photos I’m so jealous. What a job that would be. See if you can get a spot in an auto theft unit; my understanding is they work with Air 1 a whole ton.
> 
> Are you dead set on staying out west? The tricky part with Fed is getting in. Once you’re fed, getting over to BI isn’t a super big deal. Obviously the pickier you are about location, the harder.



I'm prepared to move for the right job. We work a lot with Air 1 on GD in Surrey, there's always something on the go.

I've worked a lot with the Border Integrity types here in the last two years and that's the FSOC job I want. Patrol, uniform, marked car, chasing drug runners and gun smugglers. All that plainclothes office work FFSOC does isn't for me.



SeaKingTacco said:


> Ummm….we are hiring Air Combat Systems Officers, ATM.
> 
> I have just over 2000hrs doing that sort of work in the back of helicopter.
> 
> Just sayin…



I have a diploma, not a degree so I can't commission. Also, pay. And I don't want to sit on my can somewhere waiting for years on end for training.


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## Booter (8 Oct 2022)

RedFive said:


> I've worked a lot with the Border Integrity types here in the last two years and that's the FSOC job I want. Patrol, uniform, marked car, chasing drug runners and gun smugglers. All that plainclothes office work FFSOC does isn't for me.



I really appreciate that you’re targeting something specific- that you just don’t want to go federal so you’re operationally irrelevant and not having to do work anymore. I really respect that. 🫡


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## brihard (8 Oct 2022)

Booter said:


> I really appreciate that you’re targeting something specific- that you just don’t want to go federal so you’re operationally irrelevant and not having to do work anymore. I really respect that. 🫡


But if there weren’t jammy Federal gigs, the who would take all the OT to backstop protective?


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## Booter (8 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> But if there weren’t jammy Federal gigs, the who would take all the OT to backstop protective?


That’s fair. I also wouldn’t have all the good advice about what im doing wrong. 😂


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## Haggis (8 Oct 2022)

RedFive said:


> Patrol, uniform, marked car, chasing drug runners and gun smugglers.


You mean the type of stuff that CBSA could/should be doing - to free up the RCMP (and SQ and OPP) to do policing - but aren't allowed to?


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## brihard (8 Oct 2022)

Haggis said:


> You mean the type of stuff that CBSA could/should be doing - to free up the RCMP (and SQ and OP)P to do policing - but aren't allowed to?


That’s what happens when when you try to build law enforcement functions out of an agency rooted in customs and excise collection.


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## SeaKingTacco (8 Oct 2022)

RedFive said:


> I'm prepared to move for the right job. We work a lot with Air 1 on GD in Surrey, there's always something on the go.
> 
> I've worked a lot with the Border Integrity types here in the last two years and that's the FSOC job I want. Patrol, uniform, marked car, chasing drug runners and gun smugglers. All that plainclothes office work FFSOC does isn't for me.
> 
> ...


Hey- I gotta try!

BTW, we also have sensor operators position open that do not need a degree and the trg backlog is pretty much nil, if the security clearance comes thru quickly (which it would in your case).

 Mind you, the cut in pay until you hit the qualifications for spec pay would be…significant.


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## Jarnhamar (8 Oct 2022)

Seems pretty rude not to have a cameo from Commissioner Lucki.


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## Booter (8 Oct 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Seems pretty rude not to have a cameo from Commissioner Lucki.


“It’s tough…but having the current government support your version of ‘truth’ makes it all worth while”


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## Haggis (8 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> That’s what happens when when you try to build law enforcement functions out of an agency rooted in customs and excise collection.


It's been almost 20 years since the formation of the CBSA.  To say the agency has an identity crisis would be an understatement.  Sadly, it's not all their own doing.


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## RedFive (8 Oct 2022)

Haggis said:


> It's been almost 20 years since the formation of the CBSA.  To say the agency has an identity crisis would be an understatement.  Sadly, it's not all their own doing.


I work a lot with their front line guys and middle managers. To say its an agency in crisis is an understatement. It seems most of their members point to their senior management being appointments from other government agencies and departments who have no law enforcement background who are felt by the membership to only be there to put in their time and gather competencies for their next rung in the public service rank structure being the main problem. And also an institutional fear of using their authorities and defending them in court, given how broad they are.

Which is why I'm there so often, they'll punt anything with the risk of actual investigation or charges to the "Police of Jurisdiction".


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## daftandbarmy (8 Oct 2022)

RedFive said:


> I work a lot with their front line guys and middle managers. To say its an agency in crisis is an understatement. It seems most of their members point to their senior management being appointments from other government agencies and departments who have no law enforcement background who are felt by the membership to only be there to put in their time and gather competencies for their next rung in the public service rank structure being the main problem. And also an institutional fear of using their authorities and defending them in court, given how broad they are.
> 
> Which is why I'm there so often, they'll punt anything with the risk of actual investigation or charges to the "Police of Jurisdiction".



My wife loves their TV program though 









						Border Security
					

Phony tourists here to work, belligerent visitors smuggling contraband, toys packed with heroin, weapons disguised as cell phones: all are just another day at the office for the Canada Border Services Agency. Every day, twenty thousand passengers request entry into Canada by way of Vancouver...




					www.natgeotv.com


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## Bruce Monkhouse (9 Oct 2022)

I'm having a hard time absorbing any post after "the Union paid for the recruiting video".  Would have NEVER happened in mine.

After much thought.......


Good for you.


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## Good2Golf (9 Oct 2022)

Haggis said:


> It's been almost 20 years since the formation of the CBSA.  To say the agency has an identity crisis would be an understatement.  Sadly, it's not all their own doing.


My neighbour is Dir. Ops.  I feel for him and others trying to make it work.


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## Haggis (9 Oct 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> My wife loves their TV program though
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The back of my right shoulder is in one episode.


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## mariomike (9 Oct 2022)

RedFive said:


> The ironic thing here is this campaign is created and funded by our union < snip >



The ads I recall our union spending our dues on were scare tactics on the radio.

Very realistic sounding tapes of hysterical callers, and apologetic call receievers. "Sorry, ma'am, they shut down your neighbourhood station."

Then a third voice comes on saying something like, "Our fight for more manpower is to provide you, the residents, with the best possible response time. Please call your Metro councillor to express your opinion."


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## lenaitch (9 Oct 2022)

Did your shoulder get paid scale?


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## daftandbarmy (9 Oct 2022)

The Job:


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