# raison d'etre-Why Do We Do It?



## bossi (9 Nov 2000)

In advance of Remembrance Day, I was watching some excellent Remembrance programming last night on the History Channel - I think it was called "Voices From The Trenches"; numerous first-hand accounts by war veterans.

I experienced an introspective epiphany of sorts when I realised not one of the veterans mentioned pay incentives, cost of living allowances, retirement plans, careerism, or political correctness ...

All of this to say:   What have we (the army) become?

Personally, I never joined to carry a briefcase, or to dig in behind a desk (nevertheless, I concede somebody has to do it during peacetime, or else we wouldn't be ready for ...).   Nevertheless, simply by virtue of Selection and Maintenance Of The Aim an army must focus on being an army, not just an employer.

However, after listening to stories retold about what the army was like during wartime, I wonder and even worry whether institutionally we are losing our ability to "stand on guard".

An excellent saying came to mind: "the best form of 'welfare' for the troops is first-class training" (Rommel).   Thus, I wonder - is too much time being spent chasing bureaucratic tails instead of training for war?

Dileas Gu Brath


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## Michael Dorosh (9 Nov 2000)

Partners in Motion produced that show; they also did Men of Valour: Heroes of the Victoria Cross - watch for that on Rememberance Day (it already aired on Sunday, as well).  I loaned them some uniforms for the latter and my friend got to play the part of Smokey Smith - the show is entirely about Canadian VC winners.  

As for incentives - get off it.  You don‘t think Canadian soldiers complained about their pay in World War Two?  They bitched about everything from the fact that Germans and Americans got cigars issued to them and they didn‘t, to the miserly beer ration, to you name it.  They didn‘t talk about careerism or retirement because they were fighting a damn wwar!

Your point is well taken - my reg force buddies look at disgust with the whiners they serve with who bitch and moan because they don‘t let them drink beer while on exercise (HORRORS).

Remember that line from the Dieppe miniseries?  "Your problems with morale won‘t be solved until you see some action."

It‘s a peacetime army.  You can either spend your time wishing you could beast your troops more and pray for a war - or you can adapt yourself to the fact that a peacetime army is vastly different and learn to deal with it.  We keep going over these same themes over and over again on this forum. No disrespect intended, but this doesn‘t represent an epiphany.

Perhaps you simply failed to state your point clearly.  Try again?  I‘m not sure why you would point out that soldiers fighting for their lives in a war did not have any issues with their pension plan and compensation packages.  Surely you realize that things like EI didn‘t even exist in 1939 and the expectations of that generation were very much different - part of the reason the compensation for merchant mariners is such an issue to this day - that generation didn‘t expect to get much, but in the 60s, their eyes were opened to the possibilities and the fact that others who did far less for this country received far more from the government..


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## bossi (9 Nov 2000)

hmmm ...
Okay - I stand corrected, since I obviously don‘t know much about anything, and apparently appear to have completely failed at stating my point clearly in a definitive, frontal assault (as opposed to the more sophisticated gambit of an "indirect approach" - understating my real intention, so as to evoke some dialogue at a particularly significant, emotional time of the year, and allow the thread to wander freely where it might go of its own accord ...), then perhaps we need to hear from somebody else who maybe, just maybe might meet the high intellectual standards of this forum:

"We make generals today on the basis of their ability to write a damned letter. Those kinds of men can‘t get us ready for war." 

- Lt. Gen. "Chesty" Puller, 1962


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## Michael Dorosh (10 Nov 2000)

If quoting entire magazine and newspaper articles verbatim is your idea of intellectual standards, or throwing out quotes from the famous, semi-famous and infamous, then I can see why you are so frustrated.

You keep asking the same questions over and over.  I don‘t think anybody is quite clear which answers you want to hear.  If you want to honour the generation that fought World War Two, then go ahead and do so.  It goes without saying that the current army is a shadow of its former self.

The army is too bureaucratic?  No shit, Dick Tracy.  What else is there to say about that?  Let‘s move on already.

Wondering why it was that war veterans didn‘t express concern about financial concerns in the course of a two hour (?) TV show is asinine.  Sorry for saying it.  That kind of stuff doesn‘t make you a deep thinker any more than plagiarism.  If you say something dumb you‘re going to get called on it.  I certainly have, time and time again.  That‘s what this place is for - to learn.  If you‘re looking to (as Captain Stansky did in Cross of Iron)  "achieve spiritual domination" of this mb, well, you‘re SOL.  Not that there are many people left here to dominate, anyway.


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## Shabadoo (10 Nov 2000)

I tend to pop in from time to time and more frequently than naught write something that eventually rusts some one‘s barrell. As was stated that is what this forum is for. A place to express your self right or wrong, coherant or incoherant. As far as the required intellect required to participate, shove it up your ass. 
I disagree with the idea that yesterdays soldiers would stand on guard where as todays wouldn‘t. During the war one of the major blows against their morale was the fact that there were tens of thousands of able bodied soldiers ( re: reinforcements ) back at home in Canada who out right refused to be sent over seas. Instead they chose to fight the "war at home". Regiments were decimated because of the lack of reinforcements, yet those who managed to stay at home were decorated with many of the same medals that the real volunteers received.
A soldier who is worthy to defend his own colours on a field of battle whether they have or not, seems to develope an inate ability to filter out those who pretend to be soldiers and those who really are soldiers. Fit to serve alongside.
The systemic problems of yesteryear are the same as those that we suffer today. Human needs havent changed since the dawn of man and at root of all our gripes are simply those basic human needs.
Leadership is a quality that all soldiers are tasked to exhibit at some level dependant on their experience ( which is not nescesarily indicative of rank ). Instead of complaining about basic needs ( we all have the same complaints ) we should LEAD. Lead by example. Seek responsibility and do your best to remove those needs from your fellow soldiers. If we sit idle and moan about inaction are we not just complaining about ourselves.
There are many things about our military that needs to be fixed, but the fact of the matter is, it can be fixed.
I don‘t have a formal higher education ( I hope that is fine with all who are reading), but I have spent ten years in the Militia, I have served over seas, I have complained but I‘ve done my best to fix it. I dont plan on serving forever in fact I feel that my time is almost up, maybe I‘ll try higher education and get the government to pay for it, if only half of it, maybe I‘ll collect OSAP to cover the rest of the tuition. After my two year college program ( more employable for us "hans on " worker types ) I may even be late on a few of my payments towards my student loan. I‘ll find a civvie job ( career? ) but as soon as another opportunity arises to participate in some kind of over seas operation I‘ll seriously ponder it. I‘ll either succumb to my inner need to serve others ( not just my country ) or I‘ll maybe take my gratuity package, change my religion to Rastafarian and throw my scarlets in the darkest corner of my closet. Who knows? At least I won‘t have anything to complain about.


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## bossi (10 Nov 2000)

(hmmm ...)

M. Dorosh said:
"That‘s what this place is for - to learn ... Not that there are many people left here ... anyway."

" ... get off it ... No shit, Dick Tracy ... asinine ... doesn‘t make you a deep thinker any more than plagiarism ... say something dumb ... I certainly have, time and time again."

"Your point is well taken."

(hmmm ...)

M. Dorosh also said:
"Perhaps you simply failed to state your point clearly. Try again? I‘m not sure why you would point out that soldiers fighting for their lives in a war did not have any issues with their pension plan and compensation packages."

To which I reply:

My point was deliberately understated in a failed attempt to evoke civilised discussion within the spirit of this forum.
I will now restate my point bluntly for any others who are "not sure":

1.  It strikes me as worth reminding ourselves, again and again and again, that most Canadian soldiers who enlisted voluntarily during the wars did so primarily out of sense of duty, to serve their country, to fight a common foe alongside their brothers in arms - a calling.
2.  It is disgraceful and an insult to their memory to ever lose sight of the fact that a person should join the military first and foremost for the same reasons.
3.  Pay incentives, cost of living/post living differentials, clothing upkeep allowance, retirement plans, etc. are simply renumeration for employees doing a job.
4.  A soldier‘s reward must be pride in never having broken faith with those who went before and made the supreme sacrifice.
5.  Food for thought?  Being human, perhaps we sometimes become consumed with "the small stuff" at risk of losing sight of The Aim.  We freely accept the wisdom of regular checkups by the doctor, dentist, and even "routine maintenance" to our vehicles (e.g. oil changes, lubes, coolant checks, etc.).  It behooves us to pause occasionally (especially at Remembrance Day), and similarly perform a personal "attitude check" to make certain we have not lost sight of The Aim.  When we completely forget what The Aim was, well, then maybe it‘s time to get a job instead of a calling.


(P.S.  I consciously try not to be cranky, or render snide remarks, since I recognise it is both rude and demeaning, both to the intended target and conversely upon the author.  Further food for thought.)


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## Brad Sallows (10 Nov 2000)

>It goes without saying that the current army is a shadow of its former self.

This is manifestly untrue.  The current army is a peacetime army.  Compare it to the peacetime army of any other period: pre-WWI, between WWI and WWII, post-WWII (excepting Korea).  Even compared to "golden eras" of equipment and manning such as prior to the elimination of 4CMBG, it is better because the reduced size is offset by the operational experience and new kit coming online.


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## the patriot (12 Nov 2000)

...And with that gentlemen, I hope we all spent time today reflecting upon those who sacrificed their lives for the very "freedom of speech" that is exercised on this online forum.  There isn‘t much to complain about when you are six feet under in a grave in France.

"To serve, and strive, and not to yield!"

-the patriot-


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## Michael Dorosh (13 Nov 2000)

Shabadoo, to start with - I wish you would post more often!

You make a very good point about the Zombies.  I suspect my great uncle was one of them; despite serving in the Aleutians and Holland, he was never awarded the CVSM - he was a conscript.  I do believe he got the War Medal (same as the guys who volunteered to go overseas) and the France Germany Star.

I guess every generation will have people like that - another thread talked about Canadians who had volunteered for the Forces who suddenly decided it wasn‘t for them - at the same time the Gulf War broke out!  It‘s easy to look at the accomplishments of those who went during the Big One and forget about the others who stayed behind (like PET).

As a holder of two University degrees, I can tell you that they are rather meaningless.  You certainly don‘t need one to get by, either in the Forces or society at large - but more and more employers are insisting on one as a condition of employment.  That includes companies like UPS and those in other fields one wouldn‘t expect post-secondary education as a prerequisite.

It certainly doesn‘t make anyone smarter - all it means was that they were able to afford the cost and manage to fake their way through four or more years of lectures and exams.  My university experience was little different from high school - I certainly didn‘t learn anything directly related to what I would do in the "real" world.

In the end it shows that you have dedication and commitment, more than an accumulated store of relevant knowledge.  I fear that recognizing that you "need" a degree to get ahead on civvie street is probably the deepest bout of "real thinking" that will be asked of you.

I hope you find the experience more rewarding than many of the rest of us.


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## Michael Dorosh (13 Nov 2000)

Brad - I think that is the point I was inelegantly trying to make.  We have had a lot of new kit come to us in the last 10 years and while we would all agree that it is a sin for tank regiments not to have tanks, etc., etc., etc., Canadian soldiers have always prided themselves on making do with what they have.  I say leave the complaining to the watchdog groups (http://www.c4mp.org) and concentrate on using what resources are available for realistic, interesting and relevant training.  Waiting around for the right political party to get into power so we can boost our manning levels to 100,000 men won‘t get us far.

Patriot - if you want an illustration of pause for reflection, go to http://highlanders.freehosting.net and click on Fatal Casualties at the bottom of the left frame.  I can‘t think of a more depressing job than typing in the ages and names of widows of the fatalities suffered by just one of some 50 or so infantry battalions to see action in WW II.  I haven‘t yet figured out the average age, but it is certainly somewhere in the 20s.

I am sure they, too, complained of limited resources during the early years of training.  But imaginative leadership kept them occupied even in the absence of modern equipment (ask a veteran what Battle Drill was, or read Farley Mowat‘s description of it in And No Birds Sang).  Perhaps John English was right about Battle Drill, but a lot of veterans credit it for saving their lives.


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## Shabadoo (17 Nov 2000)

I‘ve always thought that most people who volunteered did so to be with their buddies. Queen( King ) and Country were secondary thoughts. Just a thought. A thought none the less.


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## Shabadoo (17 Nov 2000)

I‘ve always thought that most people who volunteered did so to be with their buddies. Queen( King ) and Country were secondary thoughts. Just a thought. A thought none the less.


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