# How to Redress IRP Policy



## Telecom_Dirt (6 May 2008)

Hi

My posting in APS 2006 coincided with some changing and hard to find IRP policy.

As a result, I was screwed out of a significant relocation reimbursement.

A convoluted request for adjudication resulted in no change.

I want my case resolved in a grown up manner and feel that the flaky IRP system is only operating in Black & White Treasury Board mode.

How can I challenge IRP Policy/decisions. Is there a new system for grievance? Is there a way to deal with DCBA besides Redress of Grievance.

My case is complicated and not black and white.

I don't like dealing with Civies.

Outsourcing really bites so why doesn't the Military step in and monitor these "pilot projects" early.

Sorry for vagueness.

I'm hoping an really sharp admin type will help me out.

Telecom_Dirt


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## armyvern (6 May 2008)

Your Base should have a staff working in the Base OR who is the liaison between the CF/Royal LePage. Contact the Base OR to find who who it is for your location.

Once adjuducation between yourself and Royal LePage has failed, your next step is via the liaison.

I went through this last fall --- ended up winning in the end. 

Vern


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## PO2FinClk (6 May 2008)

And if what vern suggest fails, then you have to take the Redress of Grievance route. I myself was in between changes in IRP policy and yes IRP operates very Black & White. My redress went all teh way to the CDS/DGCFGA level where DCBA were clearly told they should of used their ministerial discretion. That being said, use the liaison (usually a Snr RMS) and if not use the Grievance system, it works.


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## Telecom_Dirt (28 May 2008)

Thanks for replies.

This affair is past 6 months. Can I still redress?

Cheers

TD


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## PO2FinClk (29 May 2008)

Yes


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## Greymatters (29 May 2008)

Can either of you give us an example of what went wrong with the IRP system?  Could be a good heads up for other members...


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## armyvern (29 May 2008)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Can either of you give us an example of what went wrong with the IRP system?  Could be a good heads up for other members...



Here's mine:

I was posted IR to Charlottetown, PEI. When I was posted away from Charlottetown to this location, I stayed in a hotel for 2 days.

Situation: Charlottetown, PEI -- having no base -- has no singles quarters for personnel posted on IR status to live in. Therefore, I lived in an apartment and was paid at the high rate SE.

After arriveing at this Unit, I submitted my hotel receipts etc for re-imbursement through IRPP. Approximately one week later, I was notified that my hotels and meals for the two days that I was in the hotel were* not * going to be re-imbursed as I was not entitled to claim them.

I sent an email (tracking 'read-receipt' of course) to IRPP to query exactly why I was not entitled to claim my two days meals and lodgings. Their response was "as an IR member you do not move DF&E, therefore you are not entitled to hotel and lodgings at Crown expense."

I responded to that email with "as an IR member who is posted, I certainly *DO* move effects and am entitled to do so IAW your manual. I am entitled to move 500 pounds of UAB via CMTT both to and from the location of IR and my principal residence."

They responded: "yes, but you rented an apartment and your rent was paid for that whole month in which you stayed in the hotel for two days."

I responded: "My rent was paid for the month of October. My reporting date at new location was 05 October. My rent had to be paid regardless of whether I was there or not because of last minute posting and less than 30 days notice being given. Also, given that I did live in an apartment and that IAW their own policy ... my effects had to be shipped via CMTT - that my bedding, toiletries, pots & pans had to be packed up and delivered to CMTT on 03 Oct. And that, I had to clean my apartment as well over 3/4 Oct plus travel to the new Unit on the 4th so that I could RFD the 5th as per my message."

They responded that I could still have stayed in my apartment, getting up the morning of the 4th, packing my items to deliver to CMTT, then cleaning the apartment, then handing it back to the landlord, and then travelling to new Unit to begin work the next morning."

I told them they were RTFOOI and asked who the Liaison for this Unit was. They gave me his name. I wrote up what I have written above along with ... do they really expect IR members to sleep in apartments without food, no pots to cook with, no toiletries, and no bedding, plus get up and clean stoves etc and turn our stuff in to CMTT on our travel day? 3 days later, I got back: "Your file has been reconsidered. Your request for reimbursement of meal and lodgings claimed for 3/4 October has been approved. This is an expense to which you are entitled."

Few days later, I recd notification from IRPP that they had just completed the EFT to pay me that to which I was entitled.


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## Greymatters (29 May 2008)

Sounds like a pretty good response, and also like a typical 'read the rules but dont interpret' response from the first people you dealt with.  

Hah, did you actually tell them they were RTFOOI or was that wishful thinking?     ;D


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## PMedMoe (29 May 2008)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Hah, did you actually tell them they were RTFOOI or was that wishful thinking?     ;D



I was wondering that too, but figured she did it in a nice, politically correct kind of way.  ;D


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## Telecom_Dirt (30 May 2008)

My scenario is convoluted..grey matter..

I sold my house.

Got a posting message. Yes, after I sold my house. 

Claimed Real Estate Fees on IRP move.

Denied because they changed policy in 2006 whereby benefits on sale of principal residence are not reimbursable more than one year prior to COS date. Old policy was two 2 years. 

My house sold more than 1 year before COS.

I sent a Memo to the R&D liaison (Military Clerk) specifically asking for IRP Policy on time limitations (right after I sold my house). Memo was lost. I know who lost it. I got wayyy too busy. Memo was lost when the policy suddenly changed policy.

Because of this civie outsourced entity being a cumbersome interface to DCBA a giant roadblock of communications existed (& exists) for the members.

This cost me a wack of money.

The Career manager could have posted me early and then attached posted me back to settle my affairs.

Even this year's APS has been wrought with flaky IRP policy promulgation.

How do you redress beyond 6months ? Where is it written. I (and my family) need a miracle.

Thanks


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## armyvern (30 May 2008)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Sounds like a pretty good response, and also like a typical 'read the rules but dont interpret' response from the first people you dealt with.
> 
> Hah, did you actually tell them they were RTFOOI or was that wishful thinking?     ;D





			
				PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I was wondering that too, but figured she did it in a nice, politically correct kind of way.  ;D



Words to that effect ...


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## X-mo-1979 (30 May 2008)

I tried to redress one thing with the and it never went through.

When I got posted from Ontario to NB having a sporty car all tinted out (legal tinit in Ontario),I was forced to pay to remove my tint in NB.I tried to claim and was told no.I tried a memo and got a NO response.

Best of luck.


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## Greymatters (30 May 2008)

Telecom_Dirt said:
			
		

> My scenario is convoluted..grey matter..



Okay, this first part is going to sound unsympathetic:

1. You sold your house before being posted.  Possibly in anticipation of a posting, but nonetheless, before the system kicked in.  This is your risk.  It is unfortunate that no one warned you of this. 

2. Any fees you paid as part of selling the house should have been anticipated as a 'loss'.  This should have been factored into the sale price when you sold it.  Every homeowner does this.  Any financial decisions made with the expectation that the loss could be recouped are erroneous.  Such things should always be regarded as a 'bonus', not an entitlement. 

3. I slap you on the wrist for allowing yourself to get 'way too busy'.  Your financial stability and associated lifestyle is too important to let slide and hope that someone else will take care of it.  The CF system is not a babysitter service, and you must ensure you look after yourself.


Okay, something actually helpful.

1. Do you have a copy of the last policy issued stating a '2-year window'?

2.  When did you sell your house and when did the new policy come into effect?  Establish the time difference between the two.

3.  Did a new policy package get issued prior to your selling that said it was now a '1-year window'?  Did they announce that a change was going to occur, or did they slip it in unannounced?  Did they notify all CF members?  Did you get a copy?  Why didnt you get a copy?  Were you away on a deployment or posting and did not have access to these updates?  The point here is to try and establish that there was no reasonable  way for you to be aware of an upcoming or current policy change and that you were acting on the informatino they made available.  If the new policy came out more than one month before you sold your house, you need to establish that you were not given access to or denied this information.  If youre going to claim the system failed you, you need to prove the system failed you.      

4.  Get copies of current changes.  Try to find out if the same distribution errors that occurred last time happened again.  This can support points you made earlier.

5.  Review previous denials.  Address each denial point in your redress and state clearly and specifically why the denial is invalid (in your opinion anyway). 

6.  Be prepared to write a detailed lengthy report giving all the facts.  Attach all important documents.  Expect to have this memo take a while to be processed, and repeated at every step (and the document grows with each step).  Use the right terminology as well, identify that this is an exceptional circumstance and/or unique situation.

7. Clarify the current chain of appeal for this type of report.  This may be outside of the regular chain, due to the outsourced company.  Start fresh at the bottom wrung and as each response period expires, send it to the next higher level.  Be prepared to make a lot of follow up phone calls to find out the status of your submission. 

8.  Anticipate failure.  This doesnt always work, so try to correct your financial situation now  so that you are not waiting for this money to save you.  In the end you still have to keep living and although the loss of thousands of dollars is a hard hit, theres a lot worse things that could have happened to you.


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## Telecom_Dirt (2 Jun 2008)

Thanks Greymatter

I appreciate your response. I am deployed for a few days so hopefully your still around when I get back to you.

This is why it takes so long to address persadmin. I got busy means the Military has got me busy....lol.

Cheers

TD


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## Petard (3 Jun 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I went through this last fall --- ended up winning in the end.
> 
> Vern



I would have to agree Vern, you have a winning end!
oops
Sorry, wasted bandwidth (couldn't resist ;D)
...back to our regularly scheduled program


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## armyvern (3 Jun 2008)

Petard said:
			
		

> I would have to agree Vern, you have a winning end!
> oops
> Sorry, wasted bandwidth (couldn't resist ;D)
> ...back to our regularly scheduled program



Damn. Next time we meet in the Mess again -- instead of just serving you up the Friday night meal & munchies -- I'll get you a drink to go with it.


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## Long in the tooth (12 May 2009)

I have a complaint entered with IRPP as well.  I've completed 25+ so entitled to 'the full meal deal'.  Wifey moved to the US to work (with a 50% raise) and we're building there.  I've travelled four times in the last nine months at a cost of 700-900 return, average 750.  IRPP says they'll only spot me 500 for travel to nearest port of entry.  Fine, I understand, better than nothing.

IRPP books the flight.  $1900.  Expects me to pay $1400 out of my claim, which is only worth a bit more.

We'll see where this goes.... at the liason phase right now.


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## RetiredRoyal (13 May 2009)

Telecom_Dirt said:
			
		

> How do you redress beyond 6months ? Where is it written. I (and my family) need a miracle.
> 
> Thanks



First, the result you want is the redress..the process is called a grievance. Basically, you're seeking redress to an injustice by way of formal grievance.

The Grievance Manual states the grievance must be submitted to the CO "No later than six months after the occurrence of the issue raised in the grievance, or the day that the member knew, or ought reasonably to have known, that the offending decision, act or omission in question occurred. The IA may extend the deadline when it is in the interest of justice to do so."

Start cooking up a good reason why you didn't grieve within the timeline.

Someone else on here said they submitted a grievance that didn't go through? Why not? Its nobodies decision but the members to submit it. Your assisting member or CO doesn't get to decide to put it through or not, no matter how stupid or senseless your grievance is. Your assisting member is only supposed to make sure its formatted properly and goes to the proper IA.


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## ModlrMike (13 May 2009)

Otto Fest said:
			
		

> I have a complaint entered with IRPP as well.  I've completed 25+ so entitled to 'the full meal deal'.  Wifey moved to the US to work (with a 50% raise) and we're building there.  I've travelled four times in the last nine months at a cost of 700-900 return, average 750.  IRPP says they'll only spot me 500 for travel to nearest port of entry.  Fine, I understand, better than nothing.
> 
> IRPP books the flight.  $1900.  Expects me to pay $1400 out of my claim, which is only worth a bit more.
> 
> We'll see where this goes.... at the liason phase right now.



Make sure you use the phrases "tax dollars" and "fiscal responsibility" to maximum effect.


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## Long in the tooth (19 May 2009)

I've lost my battle over the over-priced flight that I must pay for.  I intend to book my own DIT (destination inspection trip) and if I book in good time the price will only be about $600.  I won't even bother with IRPP as the CO has the authority to sign my leave pass.

I hate to continue, but each time I'm over at IRPP I mention that my case is unique (special, sure).  I'm on an IR retiring to another country, building a home with DF&E already moved at my expense.  Each time they seem surprised.  It should be noted that DND was saved a cost move last year, so the benefit is squarely to them.

99% of moves are covered by IRPP policy - but if you're that 1% better have your ducks in a row.


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