# Transition Group (Previously JPSU and DCSM)



## old medic (2 Mar 2009)

I saw this article earlier today on the CTV website.  A short item from The Canadian Press. 
Below that, I put up a copy of the DND press release that the article draws from. 

I will comment in depth on the them later. I think several items hidden in these articles are 
worthy of closer examination. Besides the addition of yet another office, the previous promises to 





> "hire an additional 218 mental health professionals by the end of March 2009"


(several references in the December 2008 ombudsmen report Pages 2,15,22 and 28- http://www.ombudsman.forces.gc.ca/rep-rap/sr-rs/osi-tso-3/doc/osi-tso-3-eng.pdf  ) 
now seems to be reduced to 117 new Full-Time Equivalent (FTE) positions. That is alot less than promised when you knock the administrative staff off that 117 for 8 offices and an Ottawa HQ. 



DND to open eight support centres across Canada
Mon. Mar. 2 2009
The Canadian Press
copy at : http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20090302/DND_supportcentres_090302/20090302?hub=Canada



> HALIFAX -- The Canadian government is creating a national network of support centres to help care for ill and injured armed forces personnel, their families, former members and the families of the deceased.
> 
> Eight Integrated Personnel Support Centres will be staffed in every region of the country over the next few months to oversee case management and program delivery, Defence Minister Peter MacKay announced Monday.
> 
> ...



The Joint Personnel Support Unit
BG–09.006 - March 2, 2009
http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/news-nouvelles/view-news-afficher-nouvelles-eng.asp?id=2880



> In the provision of care and support to its ill and injured personnel, the Canadian Forces (CF) are far ahead of where they were ten years ago. As part of an ongoing process to improve the level of services, the CF has established a network of eight support centres to meet the needs of ill and injured personnel from the Navy, Army and Air Force, providing them with an integrated “one-stop service.”  The support centres, known as Integrated Personnel Support Centres (IPSCs), operate under the Joint Personnel Support Unit (JPSU), which is headquartered in Ottawa.
> 
> The mandate of the JPSU is to respond to requests for support and report to the chain of command on issues of concern raised by ill and injured CF personnel. The JPSU accomplishes the following:
> 
> ...


.


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## Jimmy_D (8 Feb 2012)

I know that there are members who have and have not heard of the JPSU or just do not know how to get into contact them. This will help members get in contact and can also raise awareness for members on this forum about the resources that the JPSU can provide.

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/jpsu-uisp/index-eng.asp


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## Spooks (8 Feb 2012)

With my own personal, limitted experience in the military, I would say that the JPSU is one of the best things to happen to the CF in the last 10years. It is aimed to help soldiers and does so in a responsible way. However, that is an opinion derived from my experience with JPSU-Pacific (Vancouver) and JPSU-West (Edmonton)


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## bigcletus (29 Nov 2012)

I'm posted to my local JPSU awaiting 3(b).  Today they came out a form that we must have filled in by any health care provider, CF or Civ that we visit to "prove" that we were there.  Is this SOP or just something someone  came up with ??

I do feel that it can breech medical privacy in some cases.

Thanks


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## PuckChaser (29 Nov 2012)

You mean just like when you go to a CF MIR they give you a chit to say you where there? I've never had anything on a medical chit that breached privacy by stating conditions or reasons why I was there, just MELs and a time to start/end. Is the form asking specifics on why you're visiting subj doctor?


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## the 48th regulator (29 Nov 2012)

bigcletus said:
			
		

> I'm posted to my local JPSU awaiting 3(b).  Today they came out a form that we must have filled in by any health care provider, CF or Civ that we visit to "prove" that we were there.  Is this SOP or just something someone  came up with ??
> 
> I do feel that it can breech medical privacy in some cases.
> 
> Thanks



All units ask for the same; as your "Chit" only says you attended, not what for, therefore no breach of privacy.

Don't blame the unit, blame those that abused the system.

dileas

tess


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## ArmyRick (29 Nov 2012)

To add further to this, remember your CoC is also entitled to know to what extent you are employable. They may not need to know you have XXX disease or a broken YYYY, but they are allowed to know things like can/can not walk, with/out kit, how much, hours to work, etc, etc.


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## bison33 (30 Nov 2012)

When I was at the IPSC , not the JPSU, nor are you, I saw many folks just leave or not even come in. How hard is it to call or show up to say hi and see ya next week? It's those folks who ruined it. When one spends a better part of the morning trying to track down these morons, it doesn't take long to just bring back the rules. Yes, you are on the way out and probably expect to be treated differently than the folks in the old unit but in all honestly, how hard is it getting a chit or something from the civie medical folks to prove you were where you said you were? 

JPSU is the HQ that controls several IPSCs. Where I was, JPSU Edmonton also has an IPSC, they just share the same bldg.


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## maniac (30 Nov 2012)

I believe you are referring to the IPSC Support Platoon which is the military component there to maintain control and discipline as if you were in any other unit.  Troops posed to IPSC's are expected to go on RTW within MEL's and from what I've seen,  can be just about anything under the sun.  If there's been "abuse of the system" by missed medical appts or creating appts that don't exist (med appts are a temporary way out of RTW commitment),  you can bet that the reaction of the CoC from that IPSC will take action to solicit the correct behaviour from the soldiers posted to it.  It's too bad that everyone pays for the actions of others but I don't see much they could do without attending the appts with them.

There may also be a need to casualty track the amount of out sourcing for statistical purposes.  There is alot of statistical analysis in military casualties.  If all it asks is for is attendance,  that is not a breach of confidentiality as that would disclose medical details of your condition.  There is many doctors that would participate in that.


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## wesleyd (2 Dec 2012)

It's an accountability issue to ensure you are where you're supposed to be. Most MIR's will provide a chit stating the date and time you were at the MIR. Even though you are being released the CF still has to account for where you are during the day. We can't stay at home and receive a cheuqe, although it would be nice. The chit thing has always been mandatory not just at IPSC's, each unit is different as to how particular they are to seeing the chit. Currently where I am working I just let my immediate supervisor know when my appointment is and he is fine with that.  However I am sure if there was some suspicion of abuse he would want to see a chit.
I suspect that when I am posted to JPSU the IPSC will want to see a chit for any appointments I have as I will not have worked there for very long and they don't really know me.
There is no privacy issue. The chit just states you were at the appointment from time A to time B with your name on it to prove you were there.


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## Edward Campbell (3 Aug 2013)

This article is reproduced without comment (because I don't know enough about the JPSU system, but others here on Army.ca, do) under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Ottawa Citizen_:

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/health/Canada+broken+soldiers+Canada+broken+system/8743334/story.html


> Canada’s broken soldiers, Canada’s broken system
> *A much-admired military unit that has helped many injured and mentally ill Canadian veterans has deteriorated so badly it’s now in crisis itself. Former staff, clients and critics tell Chris Cobb the government and military brass are not providing resources to keep up with demand that is only likely to increase.*
> 
> BY CHRIS COBB, OTTAWA CITIZEN
> ...


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## OldSolduer (3 Aug 2013)

I know Barry. He's a good man.

Essentially, what is said is true. The JPSU was started with the best of intentions, however some people never really bought into it. 
In some instances the JPSU was seen as a dumping ground for undesirable troops who had histories of disciplinary or administrative problems. 
It took over six months for a CANFORGEN to be published on how to post a troop to the JPSU, where it should have taken about a week, thanks to the various levels of bureaucracies that had to agree and and their  :2c:.

I am sure there are a few more horror stories.


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## armyvern (3 Aug 2013)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I know Barry. He's a good man.
> ...



And Nadia is also a friend of mine.  It's really frustrating me to see what they both have to say in this article as I'd take their word as "bang on" any day.

This all fucking sucks; it needs to get fixed *now*.


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## The Bread Guy (3 Aug 2013)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> This all ******* sucks; it needs to get fixed *now*.


Agreed - let's see how long it takes to fix.  In spite of Ministers looking like they're able to do _what_ they want _when_ want, rules be damned, I'm not hopeful.

Maybe the "pips & crowns mafia" can now twist arms to convince government we need to treat those scarred in the service of Canada better?  The government listened to them on the the buttons & bows issue, right?   :sarcasm:


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## the 48th regulator (3 Aug 2013)

Having been in embedded in ono of the first IPSCs at it's inception 5 years ago, and then having 3 in my AOR, I can say that the article is spot on.

A shame really, but that is what you get when the age old Nepotism, Lack of caring, no leadership support, rules after rules that tie you down rather than help.....I can just go on.....have eroded the fundamental concept of the JPSU.  It is also bleeding into other programs in DCSM, but I digress.

dileas

tess


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## OldSolduer (3 Aug 2013)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Having been in embedded in ono of the first IPSCs at it's inception 5 years ago, and then having 3 in my AOR, I can say that the article is spot on.
> 
> A shame really, but that is what you get when the age old Nepotism, Lack of caring, no leadership support, rules after rules that tie you down rather than help.....I can just go on.....have eroded the fundamental concept of the JPSU.  It is also bleeding into other programs in DCSM, but I digress.
> 
> ...



It's despicable how we were told time after time that there were no resources available beyond what we had already, some felt that we were too well funded, some viewed this as "an Army problem" and others dismissed it outright  as a place for malingerers and whiners.

Yet we now have pips and crowns.......


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## Old Sweat (3 Aug 2013)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> It's despicable how we were told time after time that there were no resources available beyond what we had already, some felt that we were too well funded, some viewed this as "an Army problem" and others dismissed it outright  as a place for malingerers and whiners.
> 
> Yet we now have pips and crowns.......



Surely the return of pips and crowns will cure all the ills and inspire our poor suffering comrades to make a full recovery.


 :sarcasm:


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## armyvern (3 Aug 2013)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> Yet we now have pips and crowns.......



At the behest of the government; the Army rejected pips and crowns last year.

Perhaps the politicians can ante up some gonads and start looking after the troops instead of merely talking about doing such.


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## OldSolduer (3 Aug 2013)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> At the behest of the government; the Army rejected pips and crowns last year.
> 
> Perhaps the politicians can ante up some gonads and start looking after the troops instead of merely talking about doing such.



Well said, mon ami.


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## The Bread Guy (3 Aug 2013)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Perhaps the politicians can ante up some gonads and start looking after the troops instead of merely talking about doing such.


Here here!

And more than just a study to make the reporters go away now.


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## OldSolduer (3 Aug 2013)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> At the behest of the government; the Army rejected pips and crowns last year.
> 
> Perhaps the politicians can ante up some gonads and start looking after the troops instead of merely talking about doing such.



I have shared the article where Barry is quoted on CrackBook encouraging everyone to contact their MPs.


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## Teager (3 Aug 2013)

Well if we learned anything from the NVC court case its that the government doesn't owe the injured/ill anything than what they already get. If people don't like that we can elect a new government. Sounds like its going to be the same for JPSU units. If the government can diminish VAC frontline staff and offices and force vets to access help by phone and online why not  do the same with our current members? I think I'm starting to see a pattern here. I know we are one big family and we need to make sure that our brothers and sisters are looked after properly. When the system fails us then we still have each other to depend on and help each other out. Military members will always continue to look out for each other just as Barry and others are and in the long run thats what will help create change.


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## kratz (3 Aug 2013)

Teager said:
			
		

> Military members will always continue to look out for each other just as Barry and others are and in the long run thats what will help create change.



"With so many of us, let's use our old mess dues to support those who need support, or to raise funds.", isn't that how most of the non-VAC, Non-Government, Non-public support traditionally come from?


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## the 48th regulator (4 Aug 2013)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> At the behest of the government; the Army rejected pips and crowns last year.
> 
> Perhaps the politicians can ante up some gonads and start looking after the troops instead of merely talking about doing such.



Maybe the Army should find some Gonads and demand the Government to care for their troops, with the same vigor they did on denying pips and crowns.....

dileas

tess


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## George Wallace (4 Aug 2013)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Maybe the Army should find some Gonads and demand the Government to care for their troops, with the same vigor they did on denying pips and crowns.....
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess



Think I found where they went. 

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/111602.0.html

  >


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## Old Sweat (4 Aug 2013)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I have shared the article where Barry is quoted on CrackBook encouraging everyone to contact their MPs.



Done!


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## The Bread Guy (4 Aug 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Think I found where they went.
> 
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/111602.0.html
> 
> >


Never thought the post would come in _THIS_ handy!  ;D



			
				the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Maybe the Army should find some Gonads and demand the Government to care for their troops, with the same vigor they did on denying pips and crowns.....


.... and since the *politicians* were the only folks wanting to take credit in 2009 for setting the system up (note no quote from anybody in uniform in the news release), maybe the Ministers of National Defence and Veterans Affairs should strap on a pair, too.


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## Humphrey Bogart (12 Aug 2013)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I know Barry. He's a good man.
> 
> Essentially, what is said is true. The JPSU was started with the best of intentions, however some people never really bought into it.
> In some instances the JPSU was seen as a dumping ground for undesirable troops who had histories of disciplinary or administrative problems.
> ...



QFTT!


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## OldSolduer (12 Aug 2013)

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> QFTT!



Please translate. Dinosaurus Rex here. Not good with acronyms. Thanks


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## blacktriangle (12 Aug 2013)

It's a new one for me as well, but seeing that I am basically a salaried acronym translator...I'm going to guess:

"Quoted For The Truth"

and an internet search confirms my theory. 

cheers


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## The Bread Guy (15 Aug 2013)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> .... since the *politicians* were the only folks wanting to take credit in 2009 for setting the system up (note no quote from anybody in uniform in the news release), maybe the Ministers of National Defence and Veterans Affairs should strap on a pair, too.


The politicians take the credit, and are happy to "let" the uniformed staff step up if there's a problem - this letter to the editor, signed by the CDS:


> .... Caring for our members and their families is a personal priority, and I take it extremely seriously. More specifically, the CAF leadership team is passionate about ensuring that our personnel who have sacrificed in service to their country receive quality care and support.
> 
> The CAF took a tremendous step forward in providing this support when it opened our JPSU in 2009. These JPSUs aim to ensure our ill and injured personnel have proper medical care and leadership, and that support is available and tailored to their needs. While our system continually seeks to improve, it is important to note that success depends largely on an injured member’s commitment and active participation in their recovery.
> 
> ...


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## Kat Stevens (15 Aug 2013)

Anything is better than that godawful SPHL system that was around once upon a time, where units couldn't wait to remove the infected flesh and cauterize the wound before it spread.  It truly was like an episode of the walking dead, guys drugged to the eyeballs, stacked up like chord wood in a waiting room the size of a wheelchair accessible restroom stall, and made to come in the base hospital via the back door.


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## The Bread Guy (26 Aug 2013)

Good to see even an initial look, although the bit in yellow could allow the government to get off the hook if there's not problems with most or all JPSU IPSC's ("isolated incidents" and all that).


> Canada’s military ombudsman has launched a probe into the national network of support units created almost five years ago to help mentally and physically injured troops.
> 
> The probe comes less than a month after the Ottawa Citizen reported that the network of 24 support platoons have deteriorated due to overcrowding, chronic staff shortages, staff burnout and the filling of key positions with unqualified personnel, many of whom are on the eve of retirement.
> 
> ...


_Ottawa Citizen_, 26 Aug 13

_- corrected based on new info from Ombudsman's office -_


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## krustyrl (26 Aug 2013)

My experience with a certain JPSU/IPSC was less than "supportive. Even my Wing Social Worker could not believe the way some were treated at the Unit. I personally think some at that Unit forgot they were dealing with members who are sick and injured both physically and mentally.

I realize we were still in uniform but were nowheres near accomodating to each members particular issues. 
Totally frigged up my Depart with "Dignity" and I use that term loosely. Was considering contacting the WCWO after I was officially out, to see about my flag I was entitled to (after 27+ yrs) but that was the last item on DWD and was not up to facing these IPSC folks again. Eventually got my flag, which was co-incidentally flown on the wrong date and the Sgt i/c admitted he had "dropped the ball" with me and thought I already had the flag.   :facepalm:

note: I dealt with 2 different JPSU/IPSC Units and one was certainly no better than the other.

*rant off*


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## OldSolduer (27 Aug 2013)

krustyrl said:
			
		

> My experience with a certain JPSU/IPSC was less than "supportive. Even my Wing Social Worker could not believe the way some were treated at the Unit. I personally think some at that Unit forgot they were dealing with members who are sick and injured both physically and mentally.
> 
> I realize we were still in uniform but were nowheres near accomodating to each members particular issues.
> Totally frigged up my Depart with "Dignity" and I use that term loosely. Was considering contacting the WCWO after I was officially out, to see about my flag I was entitled to (after 27+ yrs) but that was the last item on DWD and was not up to facing these IPSC folks again. Eventually got my flag, which was co-incidentally flown on the wrong date and the Sgt i/c admitted he had "dropped the ball" with me and thought I already had the flag.   :facepalm:
> ...



Which ones were they? PM me please.......


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## The Bread Guy (28 Aug 2013)

From the CF/DND Ombudsman's Twitter feed:


> The Ombudsman has launched a review of the 34 Integrated Personnel Support Centres located across the country; report in Oct.
> 
> Notre Bureau examinera létat de chacun des 34 centres intégrés de soutien du personnel à l'échelle du pays.Rapport au début de l'automne.


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## krustyrl (28 Aug 2013)

:goodpost:

Good, I have my own opinion on a select couple of "Support" Centres.  I'm curious on the report.


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Aug 2013)

krustyrl said:
			
		

> :goodpost:
> 
> Good, I have my own opinion on a select couple of "Support" Centres.  I'm curious on the report.



You should ensure the Ombudsman has your opinion for his investigation.

It does no one any good if you don't voice it in the proper forum.


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## krustyrl (28 Aug 2013)

Thanks for the prompt Recceguy, I will certainly do that.  Would it be the VA Ombudsman or the DND one.?


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## OldSolduer (28 Aug 2013)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> From the CF/DND Ombudsman's Twitter feed:



I don't think it will be a very positive review. Not everyone bought into this concept.


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## Teager (28 Aug 2013)

krustyrl said:
			
		

> Thanks for the prompt Recceguy, I will certainly do that.  Would it be the VA Ombudsman or the DND one.?



It is the DND Ombudsman.


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## krustyrl (28 Aug 2013)

Roger that.   Thanks


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## kratz (30 Aug 2013)

So far, 
Personally, I have had mixed results.

*Problem*  -  As a PRes, when completing required paperwork to the best of my understanding, four months ago. Attending the meetings, as I understood them, getting signatures as I thought.......notice NO Guidance from my local JPSU, my unit signed off of my paperwork and off it goes to Ottawa for approval, last month.

*Solution*  -  After a busy summer, last week I started asking my PRes unit where the approval was and the "deer in the headlights" response was the start of the fight and last minute stress that members should not need to be going through. I spent 7 days scrambling for answers, where if I had of better understood what JPSU does to start with, instead of relying on my Divisional System, I would have reduced panic stations and have better educated my own unit in the long run. I now have approvals, have offended my Div System and JPSU is glowing here for their efforts to meet a member's needs, but the phyric nature required to for JPSU to perform it's job has not built many bridges that were barely existant to start with. I can not stop praising the efforts of my local JPSU worker, he pulled it all together and let me know the few parts I honestly missed. He made it happen, so that Ottawa JPSU could approve my request. Based on my initial request, I would have been denied outright, and my PRes unit would have simply said "so sad".

While the above example admits pros and cons, the message is this is how an "informed PRes" member is challenged to apply and get the appropriate support, as and when needed. How many are lost due to systemic problems that I went through?


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## stokerwes (31 Aug 2013)

kratz said:
			
		

> So far,
> Personally, I have had mixed results.
> 
> *Problem*  -  As a PRes, when completing required paperwork to the best of my understanding, four months ago. Attending the meetings, as I understood them, getting signatures as I thought.......notice NO Guidance from my local JPSU, my unit signed off of my paperwork and off it goes to Ottawa for approval, last month.
> ...



I can say that this is not unique to the PRes. I have seen it the RegF many times as well.


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## stokerwes (1 Sep 2013)

The JPSU staff are just like every other federal employees, overworked and understaffed. My personal experience has always been good when I have dealt with JPSU. Be it for myself or my subordinates. 
Just like all organizations there are good and not so good employees.
There does need to be more funding and more employees along with some retooling of the JPSU to improve it. More pers should be made  aware of the services they offer.
I had no idea what they offered until I required their services, this was my own fault for not educating myself sooner. But it should be a component of PD days, refresher training, indoctrination lectures etc.. the more people that know about it the better.


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## OldSolduer (1 Sep 2013)

If I may weigh I here the right people have to staff the JPSU and the IPSCs. Sometimes we don't get it right.

Personnel that work in an IPSC often have to be the "shoulder to cry on"' , the one who has to kick butt, and break down barriers to ensure the soldiers assigned to their care are cared for properly and within regulations.

This is hard enough to do for healthy soldiers. Is exponentially difficult for the ill and injured, as many of our brethren are still woefully uninformed and educated.


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## The Bread Guy (31 Oct 2013)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> From the CF/DND Ombudsman's Twitter feed:
> 
> 
> > The Ombudsman has launched a review of the 34 Integrated Personnel Support Centres located across the country; report in Oct.
> ...



And here's the Ombudsman's "Preliminary Assessment" (highlights mine) ....


> .... Following concerns raised in a complaint to the Office of the Department of National Defence and Canadian Forces (CF) Ombudsman (the Ombudsman) along with several high-profile media articles written this summer, the Ombudsman decided to conduct an assessment of potential issues regarding the JPSU’s staff adequacy and its services to ill or injured CF members.
> 
> 
> The interim review took approximately five weeks and was conducted in two phases.
> ...



Media's summary here:


> The watchdog that oversees the Canadian Forces is raising serious concerns about the signature organization the Harper government relies upon within the military to help speed the recovery of wounded soldiers.
> 
> Joint personnel support units across the country are under-staffed and lack experienced people to guide physically and emotionally battered troops through their career transitions, the military ombudsman said in a preliminary assessment released Thursday.
> 
> ...


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## stokerwes (1 Nov 2013)

I read that JPSU is going to be granted a three year extension to continue to employ reservists that are ex RegF, I think it was 47 pers. I hope that is the case and that those that do get extended are acutally working in the the IPSC/JPSU's now to keep the experience where it needs to be. The staff at any IPSC I have dealt with have always been top notch. They can only work with what they have. Hopefully the employee shortage issues will get addressed before the pers that currently work at IPCS do not suffer from burn out. I know a few that put a lot of time in to get the job done.


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## OldSolduer (1 Nov 2013)

stokerwes said:
			
		

> I read that JPSU is going to be granted a three year extension to continue to employ reservists that are ex RegF, I think it was 47 pers. I hope that is the case and that those that do get extended are acutally working in the the IPSC/JPSU's now to keep the experience where it needs to be. The staff at any IPSC I have dealt with have always been top notch. They can only work with what they have. Hopefully the employee shortage issues will get addressed before the pers that currently work at IPCS do not suffer from burn out. I know a few that put a lot of time in to get the job done.



Well said.


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## Future Pensioner (1 Nov 2013)

stokerwes said:
			
		

> I read that JPSU is going to be granted a three year extension to continue to employ reservists that are ex RegF, I think it was 47 pers. I hope that is the case and that those that do get extended are acutally working in the the IPSC/JPSU's now to keep the experience where it needs to be. The staff at any IPSC I have dealt with have always been top notch. They can only work with what they have. Hopefully the employee shortage issues will get addressed before the pers that currently work at IPCS do not suffer from burn out. I know a few that put a lot of time in to get the job done.



Speaking from experience in dealing with one of the JPSUs (and I hope they are all not like this) - it would be nice if the hired a few Reservists who have only been Reservists, as I had to do a lot of "explaining" and "educating" about Reservists issues/entitlements when I had to deal with them, and it sure would be nice to have someone who understands the issues.

And please, don't anyone turn this into a Reg vs Reserve "bashing" exercise.


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## George Wallace (1 Nov 2013)

Future Pensioner said:
			
		

> Speaking from experience in dealing with one of the JPSUs (and I hope they are all not like this) - it would be nice if the hired a few Reservists who have only been Reservists, as I had to do a lot of "explaining" and "educating" about Reservists issues/entitlements when I had to deal with them, and it sure would be nice to have someone who understands the issues.
> 
> And please, don't anyone turn this into a Reg vs Reserve "bashing" exercise.



You do have a point.  

From my experience, not with dealing with a JPSU, but with the Training System, there is a big disconnect at times between the two mentalities.  My experience was in  finding positions on career courses, and even with Reservists (actually recently retired CAF members stepping directly into a Class B position at a School) in positions to Crse load, there is often an opening that comes up last minute and lands up being a NO FILL.  Unlike the Reg Force where a member could be told Friday that they are on Crse Monday and off they go, Reservists have full-time professions as civilians and all the administration involved in getting time off from those jobs.  Some of these people need a year in advance notice to book leave from work to attend courses.  Someone without this 'knowledge/experience' posting crses on short notice, even moving crse dates to the right or left as little as one day, prevents these Reservists from getting career crses.  

You can not always deal with Regular Force and Reservists in the same manner which is not always understood by the, for the most part, Regular Force persons in charge.


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## stokerwes (1 Nov 2013)

I am Reg Force and have been working at a Reserve unit for the last two years and I am still surprised at some of the differences. Especially the way injured personnel are treated. 
It took me awhile to wrap my head around the timings for courses etc.. But once educated I got it.
Other than the obvious difference of part time/full time I find little difference between Reg and Res Forces as far as the people are concerned.


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## MilEME09 (1 Nov 2013)

As a Reservist going through the process right now after snapping my leg like a twig a few months ago. Both my unit and the local IPSC have looked after things as best they can, that said their frustration seems to be with the system. I was handed over to them in early September and got the ball rolling, and now its November and we are still waiting for Division and Ottawa to sign off on my claim for the Reserve Force compensation that will last until I am cleared to go back to work. If it wasn't for my unit and IPSC working out an intern plan for my pay i'd be two months without pay right now. I have nothing but praise for the ex reg force case manager at IPSC handling my case, though when I did see him last most of his staff were on leave so it was just him and one other person. Maybe a 3rd case manager might help them when one is on leave.


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## Radar01 (20 Feb 2014)

In 2010 I was posted to an IPSC of the JPSU as an ill/injured member.  Since that time, as an ill/injured member posted to this unit, I have often been very frustrated with how my particular IPSC treats its members and makes decisions that have often been insensitive or not in support of myself and others I have spoken to.  Now as my 28 plus year career in the Regular Force comes to an end, I can't think of any regiment, HQ, school or any other unit that treated me as bad as this unit.

During all my career I have put loyalty first in my chain of command, unit and the Canadian Forces in general.  Now as I am about to retire, I find myself at my "wit's end" with my IPSC.

[size=12pt]*Is it my perspective or are there other members who are having issue with their JPSU IPSCs?*[/size]

Some general examples of my personal situation include:

a.     denying almost all requests, but particularly, without research and sometimes within only minutes or hours of receiving these simple and lawful requests that would assist for an easier transition to civilian life, denying them without any adjudication whatsoever;

b.     refusing to forward requests to higher levels where there was a clear entitlement but eventually submitting or approving them only on grievance;

c.     where there was no breach of service discipline of any type, using threats of disciplinary action as a practice; 

d.     interpreting and applying career-ending processes that needlessly prejudiced some of the most important processes of my military career; and

e.     in general, treatment like I was a private recruit.

I can quote the specifics for me and others, but for this forum, this should suffice. 

Previously as a junior leader in the infantry and then later as a senior leader in my current occupation, I have never treated, nor would I let my subordinates be treated, like I am being treated by this organization. 

Again, surely I can't be the only one!


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## Remius (20 Feb 2014)

I really can't comment on what kind of pressures the JPSUs are going through right now.  I have colleagues that work there on a class B basis.  That may be part of the issue.  Understaffed.  

This is far from an excuse but...

Having worked in a client/service office, it really does not take very long for some people to get dejected.  You deal with a lot of crap.  A lot of undeserved crap as well.  In fact you likely deal with more BS than legitimate gripes.

What happens is that people who have legitimate gripes and concerns just get lumped in with the rest.

I'm not saying you don't have legimate complaints.  But for every legimate complaints there are likely ten times more that aren't.

It took me a long time for me to get dejected in that job because I had the right attitude for the work but eventually it took its toll and when it did it was time for me to move on because I wasn't helping myself or the organisation.  I just didn't care anymore. 

The problem is when people who work in these jobs don't realise that they are probably past their past due date but stay for whatever reason.  But a lot of it also has to do with people not listening, hearing what they want to hear and not liking the answers they get.  You can blame them as much as you can blame the ones at JPSU.

Anyway, sorry to highjack and good luck with everything.


----------



## Radar01 (20 Feb 2014)

I appreciate your perspective and agree with you to some extent.  Definitely under-staffing is a huge issue with IPSCs - no question there.  And training and experience adds to an already overworked and understaffed system.  That, and the fact that it is still not an excuse being said, the issues I have are with those in decision-making positions.  Most of these people have good experience.

It is not just that I don't like the decisions, not only were some of them wrong by regulation, they could have been harmful had I not challenged them!  As for decisions that I didn't like that were not against CF rules, order or directives, my grip is that a "NO" was easier to say than a "We will look into it and get back to you."  In three cases, what should have been an issue and that should have gone up the chain of command and taken perhaps days either approve or deny, was denied "on the spot!"

For the last few years in the CF, I was THAT person making those decisions (although not part of a JPSU).  When presented with a request that I had to deny, at least I returned the denied request with a reason other than, and I quote the notations, "Not approved" or "Denied." This is even most important when dealing with career altering or benefit altering decisions.

One last point, when a member makes a well presented request, whether is it reasonable or not, the fact that it was well presented, well represented and at least approvable within the framework of current CF policy, the least an OPI can do is deny it with a reason; any reason; good or bad!

Thanks for the perspective and input.


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## Radar01 (20 Feb 2014)

krustyrl said:
			
		

> My experience with a certain JPSU/IPSC was less than "supportive. Even my Wing Social Worker could not believe the way some were treated at the Unit. I personally think some at that Unit forgot they were dealing with members who are sick and injured both physically and mentally.
> 
> I realize we were still in uniform but were nowheres near accomodating to each members particular issues.
> Totally frigged up my Depart with "Dignity" and I use that term loosely. Was considering contacting the WCWO after I was officially out, to see about my flag I was entitled to (after 27+ yrs) but that was the last item on DWD and was not up to facing these IPSC folks again. Eventually got my flag, which was co-incidentally flown on the wrong date and the Sgt i/c admitted he had "dropped the ball" with me and thought I already had the flag.   :facepalm:
> ...


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## krustyrl (20 Feb 2014)

Time has passed and I'm not quite as bitter but wouldn't change my words one bit.  
Edit to add : that training should be standard used allowing staff to be more knowledgeable. In my case my platoon Sgt had no idea there were different couloir CF Service Pins and when I was given the wrong pin, I was told " I never knew there were different pins, I must have taken a different SCAN Seminar than you did".  My reply was that the SCAN briefings were done by the same people as a traveling roadshow twice a year. 

Just woke up my frustration levels now and I've been doing so well. Grrr.  :facepalm:


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## stellarpanther (14 May 2015)

Hopefully this is the correct spot for this post.

I was advised my unit today that they wanted to try to get me put into JPSU because of an injury I sustained that will require surgery.  I know a few people that have this type of surgery and other than a 6-8 month recovery time which I'll be off for about 6-8 weeks I should be fine.  Other than that it's modified duties.  If I was in any other unit I would probably be accommodated during this recovery but this pace doesn't want to and the Career Manager won't someone else in there while.  While they acknowledged they don't even know if the file will be accepted, my question is whether I should try to have it denied.


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## McG (14 May 2015)

There is nothing wrong with going to JPSU to get better.  That is what the unit exists to do.  You can ask for a return to work placement back to your current unit.  That would see you continue to work in your current unit while not filling a spot on the establishment.

Are you in a deployable unit?


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## Armymedic (15 May 2015)

Not knowing, nor do I care to know, what surgery you are to have, I would speculate that due to the extended period you are requiring for time off and for rehab, it sounds like your MO determined that you will not be able to return to full duties for quite an extended period.  (Speculating almost a full year)

The MO would have informed your CO of that, and the CO decided that your unit needs your position filled while you were recovering.

They are using IPSC for its purpose. Take the reduced pace and heal. Your still in and still getting paid on pensionable time. You're only in the military for a temporary period of your life; if you do not recover properly, you will be in pain for life.


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## Brasidas (15 May 2015)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> ...While they acknowledged they don't even know if the file will be accepted, my question is whether I should try to have it denied.



To what end would you want to avoid this?

There's nothing wrong with going to JPSU, nor does it stop you cold from doing work in your trade. A RTW program could be arranged to work within your limitations, but your time should be focussed on your recovery.


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## stellarpanther (16 May 2015)

Rider Pride said:
			
		

> Not knowing, nor do I care to know, what surgery you are to have, I would speculate that due to the extended period you are requiring for time off and for rehab, it sounds like your MO determined that you will not be able to return to full duties for quite an extended period.  (Speculating almost a full year)
> 
> The MO would have informed your CO of that, and the CO decided that your unit needs your position filled while you were recovering.
> 
> They are using IPSC for its purpose. Take the reduced pace and heal. Your still in and still getting paid on pensionable time. You're only in the military for a temporary period of your life; if you do not recover properly, you will be in pain for life.



The MO or the CO haven't even heard about this yet.  My concern is because the only people I know/knew in JPSU were in the process of being medically released and that isn't expected in my case.


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## Armymedic (16 May 2015)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> The MO or the CO haven't even heard about this yet.  My concern is because the only people I know/knew in JPSU were in the process of being medically released and that isn't expected in my case.



The CO, MO and to a lesser extent, your RSM (or equivalent) must know, because they are the ones who sign the paperwork and provide the justification and plan. 

You need to ask your MO and your CoC some questions?

And no, the unit I am in, we send people there so they can take a break from the tempo and stress of the job while they are recovering. Everyone of them is expected to return.


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## stellarpanther (10 Jun 2015)

The application is now with the BSurg.  What happened was the WO got the idea to try to have me posted to JPSU because he wants to try to get my position filled, and discussed it with the Captain who went along with it.  The CO found out about it a week or so after they told me they were going to try to do that.  After learning everything I have about JSPU, I am actually hoping I'll get accepted because it will allow me to heal without being rushed by my unit or pushed to do things I probably should not be doing anyway.  Both the surgeon and MO assure me that barring any unforeseen complication, other than a lengthy recovery time, this definitely will not get me released.


----------



## dapaterson (10 Jun 2015)

Exactly.  The folks I know at JPSU love to have people who recover and return to service.


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## McG (3 Jul 2015)

Looks like it will be 2017 before DND completes any thorough analysis of how the JPSU system is working, but the Ombudsman will resume the task for the interim.


> *DND quietly shelves report from investigation into inadequate care for ill and injured troops*
> Chris Cobb, Postmedia News
> National Post
> 29 June 2015
> ...


http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/dnd-quietly-shelves-report-from-investigation-on-care-for-ill-and-injured-troops

I've heard mixed reviews from pers who have been through JPSU.  One individual, who made it back to his regiment, noted that initially the IPSC was very good and he did start to get better ... but, improvement plateaued.  He had gone from the structured and healthy routine of the regiment to something with no structure and heavily populated by the depressed and pessimistic.  The plateau eventually gave way to his getting worse.  He came back only because his attached posting expired and he had never fully been posted.  Hopefully the unit will find him employment that will allow his recovery.


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## The Bread Guy (9 Aug 2015)

MCG said:
			
		

> Looks like it will be 2017 before DND completes any thorough analysis of how the JPSU system is working, but the Ombudsman will resume the task for the interim.http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/dnd-quietly-shelves-report-from-investigation-on-care-for-ill-and-injured-troops ....


Looking for something else, and am belatedly sharing this as an update ....


> Defence Minister Jason Kenney has ordered his department to release data it gathered during an internal investigation into the troubled military unit responsible for the care of ill and injured troops.
> 
> The Ottawa Citizen revealed Monday that DND had quietly shelved its partially finished investigation into the Joint Personnel Support Unit (JPSU) system saying it would not release any details until 2017.
> 
> ...


Even if the 'Budman has some work done & ready to share, it won't be shared until after October 19 thanks to the "Caretaker Convention" in place until then.  I guess it'll also depend how quickly the data gets handed over.

- edited by poster to get facts straight -


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## Usename (17 Feb 2016)

I was hoping if someone could provide me with a brief overview of the JPSU application process from start to finish. It is my understanding that the application goes through a number of different organizations before being finalized and a posting message cut. Just wondering what those organizations are and the approximate time it takes to go through. Ive done a number of searches with no luck.

Thank you for your time and any help you can provide.


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## Steve_D (17 Feb 2016)

The application form is a DND 2794 which can be found on the CF Forms Catalogue. Section 1 is simply the member's particulars. Section 2 is completed by the member's CO and then forwarded to the Base/Wing Surgeon for their comments.  The form is then forwarded to the Officer Commanding of the local Regional JPSU HQ and finally back to the member's CO for final comments and sent to the Career Manager.  This form utilizes digital signatures (do NOT use the old form!).  This is a much faster process than in the past as the form simply needs to be emailed (PKI) to each step of the process.

A memo from the member to their CoC requesting support for a posting to JPSU never hurts.

For criteria, see CANFORGEN 114/11.

Hope this helps


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## mariomike (17 Feb 2016)

Usename said:
			
		

> I was hoping if someone could provide me with a brief overview of the JPSU application process from start to finish.



You may find these discussions of helpful,

JPSU IPSC Problems or Issues (merged)
http://army.ca/forums/threads/108455.0
3 pages.

JPSU
https://army.ca/forums/threads/119372.0

Joint Personal Support Unit  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/104470.0

For future reference, perhaps JPSU will be merged.


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## The Bread Guy (4 Aug 2016)

Bumped with the latest - new boss taking over ...


> Media are invited to attend the Joint Personnel Support Unit (JPSU) Change of Command Ceremony as Brigadier-General Dave Corbould takes over from Captain (N) France Langlois.
> 
> The JPSU provides personal administrative support and programs to ill and injured Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) members of the Regular and Reserve Force who have medical employment limitations that preclude them from returning to their normal place of duty for a period of six months or more.
> 
> ...


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## ninjapixie (8 Dec 2016)

This is probably not a typical question for someone being medically released. I have come to terms with it all and I'm now being proactive in my voc rehab which will start in Aug. I was told recently that I cannot be posted to JPSU until I start my voc rehab. But, I had been hoping for earlier. Sounds weird, but I want go there earlier so my unit is not left hanging without a replacement. This unit has been really good to me so, I would prefer that they are covered in the time (at least 6 weeks) prior to my voc rehab - the time I figure it will take to use my leave, move to a new location etc. 
Does anyone know if you can be posted to JPSU before your voc rehab starts? Thanks


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## mariomike (8 Dec 2016)

ninjapixie said:
			
		

> Does anyone know if you can be posted to JPSU before your voc rehab starts?



For reference, perhaps,

Timing question on being posted to JPSU


will be merged with,

JPSU IPSC Problems or Issues (merged) 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/84368.50
3 pages.


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## Hockey22 (10 Dec 2016)

I was posted to JPSU edmonton long before my Voc Rehab. I got to JPSU in October and I start transitioning out January through ILP. 

Short answer; yes you can be posted before then.


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## captloadie (12 Dec 2016)

Given the timeline you stated, your unit likely will get a replacement posted in during the APS anyway. If they can still employ you fully, they probably aren't worried about staffing the paperwork until closer to the time you are scheduled to commence voc rehab. Or, they realize they aren't getting a replacement for you anyway, so why bother doing the paperwork. They can administer you on voc rehab if you are remaining in the same geo-location.


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## The Bread Guy (1 Feb 2017)

And with this ...


> *Chief of the Defence Staff announces Canadian Armed Forces General and Flag Officer senior appointments, promotions, and retirements* ... Brigadier-General G.D. Corbould will retire from service, resulting in the following promotions and appointments:  Brigadier-General S.A. Brennan will be appointed Commanding Officer Joint Personnel Support Unit (JPSU), at NDHQ in Ottawa, replacing Brigadier-General G.D. Corbould ...


... we see this via The Canadian Press:


> The commander of the military health unit responsible for mentally and physically injured soldiers is retiring, less than six months after taking over the much-maligned unit and promising to clean it up.
> 
> The timing of Brig.-Gen. Dave Corbould's sudden departure from the Joint Personnel Support Unit, which was announced Tuesday, has raised eyebrows and concerns about the unit's future.
> 
> ...


----------



## Steve_D (5 Feb 2017)

Let's get something perfectly clear here. JPSU staff are NOT medical personnel! They deal with the administration of personnel posted to them.  Fingers continue to be pointed to JPSU for failing our sailors/soldiers/airmen; but why are those fingers not being pointed to the actual medical community?? Staff at JPSU in some units are being told strongly by the medical personnel that they are not to even know what member's medical condition is. How, then, can they be held responsible?? Not being medical, how the hell are they supposed to be the ones to medically assist our members?  The real issue is staffing. There are units where the staff (a Sgt/PO2) will have up to 75 direct reports who are spread over a very large area. Where else in the military does a Sgt have 75 DIRECT reports?? Nowhere.

Start pointing the fingers and questioning those who are truly supposed to be working on the physical and mental health of our members and not the administrators who are working very, very hard; unable to actually do anything and taking all the blame when something goes wrong!

Rant over.


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## Gunner98 (6 Feb 2017)

NavyPhoenix said:
			
		

> Staff at JPSU in some units are being told strongly by the medical personnel that they are not to even know what member's medical condition is. How, then, can they be held responsible?? Not being medical, how the hell are they supposed to be the ones to medically assist our members?



Not sure what you mean by "medically assist"?  If the soldier posted the JPSU (or any unit) wants to share the nature of his medical condition that is up to him/her, the CAF medical system cannot and will not share so that should be the case in all and not just some JPSU units.  

I am not sure why you would need to know their medical condition to assist them - they receive medical employment limitations and a prognosis for recovery (TCAT 6 months or PCAT). If they need adaptive or ergonomic devices then that should be between CAF Health system and Veterans Affairs to figure out who is going to pay.

There are case managers and mental health (as appropriate) that should be doing collaborative work with the JPSU staff on a weekly basis.  So let's be clear, it is not about being responsible, it is about being *responsive* to the individuals needs and entitlements.


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## Steve_D (6 Feb 2017)

I agree. My point is that it is the medical system that is the ones who are supposed to work on the member's medical condition. JPSU staff are very, very good at being responsive to member's needs. But when a member "goes off the rails" (and it is almost always due to a mental health issue), it is JPSU staff who are blamed for not dealing with the member's issues when it is not their job to do that. I am just tired of JPSU wearing all the blame and the medical system and mental health personnel are not being questioned as to what did they do to assist the member.


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## CountDC (7 Feb 2017)

I have to agree with Navy Phoenix on this one, too often the finger is pointed at JPSU.  People sometimes have highly unreasonable expectations of the JPSU due to lack of knowledge in their function. From my experience they worked extremely hard to do everything possible to assist the mbrs attached or posted to them.


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## BrownCoatOtaku (14 Mar 2017)

I have been posted to JPSU unit for about 16 months now, and all most all issues do not come from staff, it comes from the civilians hired and working there.
My staff had a hay day with me, they have never had someone who was posted in and was Fit for Duty. Before me all people they had posted there had already been on TCat or PCat
My Sgt and WO have been amazing upon my posting in, time leading up to surgery and last 6 months recovery.



couple examples

They have even attempted twice to get me my promotion to CPL, Upon my arrival as I was fit, had the forces test, time in (currently at 4 1/2 years) and my 2.0 (Cpl Quals) and CFB Edmonton Policy was to promote to Cpl at 3 years due to higher cost of living. (upon my arrival in Edmonton I had 3 years 3 months of service)

My old CoC provided supporting paperwork saying if I had remained I would have been advanced promoted (my posting for surgery was the reason they didn't submit the paperwork), JPSU provided supporting paperwork and the local trade unit provided supporting paperwork saying if I had been posted to them I would have had my Cpls by end of my first month there


The first time it was rejected on it was not Ottawa Policy to promote Cpl on 3 years due to higher cost of living and being posted to JPSU made me Operational Undeployable.  .

My only issue with JPSU was some person in Ottawa had the final say on my promotion to Cpl and rejected it based on Ottawa policies not CFB Edmonton policy (at the time)

Turns out no matter what base you are on, if you are posted to JPSU, you belong to Ottawa and most decisions are made based on Ottawa policies not local Base or unit policies.

About 2 weeks ago they put forward my promotion again based on the new CANFORGEN that came out in Feb stating  DE-LINKING OF MEDICAL CONDITION FROM PROMOTION CRITERIA.  And even tho I would only be promoted to Acting Cpl till I completed the forces test after the completion of my physio and reactivation PT. 

As great as my promotion would be, I must admit some of my egerness for my promotion is motivated by the pay raise that comes with it.  I do admit my bills have drastically increased do to being posted from Petawawa to Edmonton and I lost field pay because of not belonging to a field unit (I even had to return my rucksac). 

Almost every time I have had a bad experience it is from my civilian case nurse, who didn't like something or wanted something changed because of her personal opinion.

I was RTD to a local unit until my surgery. They wanted to send me to field to prevent skill fade and even give me training I didn't have before, both CoC were in agreement with this. The Case Nurse didn't like the idea of sending me to the field so she had me given Not Fit For Field MEL, even tho I was fit for duty. And when it came time to do the forces test (10 days before my surgery) she had No Forces Test put on my MEL, even when I had approval from doctor to attempt it.

I have talked with a few other people posted to JPSU who are awaiting medical release (where I will returning to active duty upon receiving Fit For Duty), and their issues are not with JPSU themselves but the Civilian and VA.

Now I do admit that my experience is not the same as everyone else. I am simply saying my experience has been the civilians that have caused 95% of issues I have.

PS

For the record this is not a poor poor me message.. it's a here are some of the reasons for my opinion message


----------



## The Bread Guy (13 Apr 2017)

Posting this here mostly because of the JPSU focus ...

From CBC.ca ...


> *Military to disband and replace oft-maligned support units for wounded soldiers*
> 
> Units were created in crisis, Gen. Jonathan Vance says, and time has come to do better
> 
> ...


... and the _Globe & Mail_:


> The Chief of the Defence Staff is planning to create a branch of human-resource professionals within the military that would be dedicated to helping retiring soldiers, sailors and aviators step more easily into civilian life.
> 
> One of the most difficult problems facing the Canadian Forces in recent years has been the uneven, and often jarring, process for discharging personnel.
> 
> ...


----------



## stellarpanther (7 May 2017)

BrownCoatOtaku said:
			
		

> I have been posted to JPSU unit for about 16 months now, and all most all issues do not come from staff, it comes from the civilians hired and working there.
> My staff had a hay day with me, they have never had someone who was posted in and was Fit for Duty. Before me all people they had posted there had already been on TCat or PCat
> My Sgt and WO have been amazing upon my posting in, time leading up to surgery and last 6 months recovery.
> 
> ...



I think if I had a doctor telling me I could do it and it was in writing, I would ignore what the nurse had to say and did the test anyways.  When I need to go to sick parade for anything, I always tell them I want to see a doctor and not a PA or nurse.  The medics don't always like it but it is my right.  I've had a coupe bad experiences with a PA and nurse so I don't want to see them.

Also, VAC told me they only go by what a MD says and not a PA or nurse practitioner.


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## chadk (25 Nov 2017)

I have a question on the length of time it typically takes for a member to see a posting message to JPSU.  Without going into too much detail, I’ve been dealing with vertigo and daily migraines for almost two years now.  My MO has submitted his PCAT recommendation and I have written a memo and filled out the JPSU application myself and submitted to my CoC.  My MO and my case manager have been asking me if my CoC have mentioned anything to me in regards to my status on my units end but still two months later, nothing has happened or even passed over to medical for them to do their part for the JPSU posting request.  Further, my MO and case manager have put in a request to have my medical release expedited and are trying to have me posted to JPSU Petawawa to be closer to family so that they can assist with my medical needs ( no support where I am currently posted). I’m required to use a cane and have homecare support and medical devices installed in my home because of the severity of my issues.  I, only asking because I’ve been given different advice from different people and do not want to step on toes.


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## mariomike (25 Nov 2017)

chadk said:
			
		

> I’ve been dealing with vertigo and daily migraines for almost two years now.



For reference,

Dizziness/Vertigo  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/124491.0
OP: chadk


----------



## Gunner98 (25 Nov 2017)

chadk,

A few questions - do currently go to your unit on work days or do your MELs have you staying at home?  If you go to work do you performance any of your normal duties?  The CO would only push for you to be posted and replaced if your MELs affect his unit's daily operations. It would be crucial for you to ask the chain of command their intentions as the MO and Case Manager do not initiate the process, they provide support and a recommendation. If you are not going to work regularly and the unit does not need a replacement then the process could drag on for a long time.  If they have sent a recommendation to DMC it could take days or months depending on the backlog and priority/urgency of your case.

"A posting to the JPSU must be recommended by the unit Commanding Officer, and supported by the Base/Wing Surgeon or a delegated senior medical officer. The approving authority for posting Regular Force personnel to the JPSU is Director of Military Careers and it is the appropriate Command Headquarters (HQ) for Reserve Force personnel. CANFORGEN 114/11 provides further detail on posting to the JPSU."  http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-benefits-ill-injured-deceased/guide.page


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## chadk (25 Nov 2017)

My condition and MELs unfortunately have me at home except for two half days per week. It is also only for socialization as simple tasks can cause my vertigo to increase.   I’m getting paid so will never complain but with my condition I also feel that I’m totally useless to the uniform. Posting wise,  I am in a posting where I can be easily forgotten.  I’m only curious as my counselor, MO and case manager would like to have me under closer family care for appointments etc.  This condition quite sucks .....saying all that I understand the military process


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## Mediman14 (19 May 2018)

I searched for this answer, but did not find it here. Is it possible to get posted between JPSU's? For example, If you was going to be Medically release, you ask to go to JPSU, but it is not your ideal place you want to live. Can you request to be posted from JPSU to JPSU in a different province?


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## Teager (19 May 2018)

I remember reading that if the member needed to be closer to family for support a move closer to them could be supported. 

Keep in mind if you are just looking at ideal place to live once released you will still get a final move paid for.


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## captloadie (22 May 2018)

I have had several members request a posting to a different geographical location. The only occasions where they were successful was if there was a medical recommendation to do so. All other cases saw the member take their IPR, and then the releasing base was changed, along with the IPSC they would report into. 

At one time, we used to use Voc Rehab as a reason to get someone posted to a JPSU/IPSC in a new geographic location, but that has since ceased in most cases as well.


----------



## Mediman14 (30 May 2018)

Can a Mbr posted to JPSU be allowed to attend school?


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## Gunner98 (30 May 2018)

That would depend on the nature of the conditions on which they were posted to the JPSU.  Are they being medically released and the course is part of the transition and vocational rehabilitation plan?  Is it part of a Return to Work process after a series disease or medical intervention?


----------



## Mediman14 (30 May 2018)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> That would depend on the nature of the conditions on which they were posted to the JPSU.  Are they being medically released and the course is part of the transition and vocational rehabilitation plan?  Is it part of a Return to Work process after a series disease or medical intervention?



Sorry, I should of been more clear! Mbr being medically released. How long can a Mbr stay into JPSU? If allowed to attend school, do they stay in JPSU until school is completed? How does it work?


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## Teager (30 May 2018)

> Vocational Rehabilitation Program for Serving Members (VRPSM)
> References
> CANFORGEN 151/07, 136/04, 135/04, 088/04, 100/00
> 
> ...



http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-benefits-ill-injured-deceased/guide.page


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## Mediman14 (21 Jul 2018)

If a member meets the requirements for JPSU with a high risk MEL and request to go to JPSU, but still can work daily. Can JPSU deny your request? Can the members CO deny the request? I assume an CO can deny the request, does that happen often?


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## kratz (21 Jul 2018)

Ref: - CANFORGEN 114/11
- Posting to the Joint Personnel Support Unit (JPSU) and the Service Personnel Holding List (SPHL)

Yes, a CO can deny a request for a posting to JPSU.



> Eligibility
> 
> Ill and injured Regular Force members are eligible for posting to the JPSU. Under certain conditions, Reserve Force members may be eligible for posting to the JPSU. Posting to the JPSU is based on a prognosis of restricted employment due to medical reasons for a period of six months or more. A posting to the JPSU must be recommended by the unit Commanding Officer, and supported by the Base/Wing Surgeon or a delegated senior medical officer. The approving authority for posting Regular Force personnel to the JPSU is Director of Military Careers and it is the appropriate Command Headquarters (HQ) for Reserve Force personnel. CANFORGEN 114/11 provides further detail on posting to the JPSU.


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## garb811 (22 Jul 2018)

To add to kratz's response...

If the member can work full days, no matter what their MELs say, a posting to JPSU is no longer likely to be supported.  Even if it turns out the member is going to be medically released, the decision message from DMCA will likely read along the lines of the member is eligible to be posted to JPSU for the last six months in order to commence voc rehab and JPSU won't even look at them until then.  

This started happening 3-4 years ago in my experience and now leaves the unit unable to get a fully fit member posted in, which was one of the biggest reasons JPSU was stood up for in the first place.


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## Mediman14 (23 Jul 2018)

If the member can work full days, no matter what their MELs say, a posting to JPSU is no longer likely to be supported.  Even if it turns out the member is going to be medically released, the decision message from DMCA will likely read along the lines of the member is eligible to be posted to JPSU for the last six months in order to commence voc rehab and JPSU won't even look at them until then.  

This started happening 3-4 years ago in my experience and now leaves the unit unable to get a fully fit member posted in, which was one of the biggest reasons JPSU was stood up for in the first place.  
[/quote]

Does that happen very often? I know several of my co-workers was sent to JPSU. Some was able to work everyday, some was only 3-4 days a week. My unit's duty driver is a JPSU mbr who is able to work everyday, he only had an upper body MSK surgery! I have also seen a chain of command trying to send a Member to JPSU without telling the member at all! I wonder what the BSurg uses to determine who goes to JPSU?


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## PuckChaser (23 Jul 2018)

Every case is unique, much like every individual's medical condition and MELs. I would like to think the BSurg weighs a lot of factors including MELs, risk level, CO's comments, member's preference, etc. There's also going to be cases where a member occupies a 1 of 1 position in a unit that cannot go without a specific skillset that the member has but can no longer provide. JPSU allows the member to recover and allows the unit to be able to post in a member to meet their operational requirements.


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## garb811 (23 Jul 2018)

Mediman14 said:
			
		

> Does that happen very often? I know several of my co-workers was sent to JPSU. Some was able to work everyday, some was only 3-4 days a week. My unit's duty driver is a JPSU mbr who is able to work everyday, he only had an upper body MSK surgery! I have also seen a chain of command trying to send a Member to JPSU without telling the member at all! I wonder what the BSurg uses to determine who goes to JPSU?


I'm not sure how often it is happening across the country but in my recent experience, we were 0/3; notwithstanding the fact the posting request was supported by the CO and BSurg, and the MELs were of the nature of "Light, sedentary, clerical type duties only".  The reply from Ottawa was if the members were able to show up to work 5 days a week, find employment for them in the unit.


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## CombatDoc (25 Jul 2018)

Mediman14 said:
			
		

> ...I know several of my co-workers was sent to JPSU. Some was able to work everyday, some was only 3-4 days a week. My unit's duty driver is a JPSU mbr who is able to work everyday, he only had an upper body MSK surgery! I have also seen a chain of command trying to send a Member to JPSU without telling the member at all! I wonder what the BSurg uses to determine who goes to JPSU?


The determination to send a member to JPSU is a chain of command decision, not the BSurg’s. 

The BSurg can recommend JPSU to the CoC if they feel it is in the mbr’s best interest, and the BSurg confirms that MELs will be of a duration greater than 6 months (usually, the prognosis for return to full duties is significantly longer, though). However, the final decision on whether to post a member to JPSU lies purely with the CO of the unit.


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## garb811 (25 Jul 2018)

There's a new CANFORGEN out today on the Return to Duty program that has a direct bearing on this discussion.  There's also a RTD manual now as well.





			
				ArmyDoc said:
			
		

> The determination to send a member to JPSU is a chain of command decision, not the BSurg’s.
> 
> The BSurg can recommend JPSU to the CoC if they feel it is in the mbr’s best interest, and the BSurg confirms that MELs will be of a duration greater than 6 months (usually, the prognosis for return to full duties is significantly longer, though). However, the final decision on whether to post a member to JPSU lies purely with the CO of the unit.


The CO of the unit just makes a recommendation as well, it is D Mil C who makes the final decision.


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## dapaterson (25 Jul 2018)

I've seen a B Surg refuse a transfer, and six months later, with new folks in the chairs, seen the same file hit the new B Surg who asked "Why wasn't this done six months ago?"

Medicine remains more art than science...


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## PPCLI Guy (25 Jul 2018)

garb811 said:
			
		

> There's a new CANFORGEN out today on the Return to Duty program that has a direct bearing on this discussion.  There's also a RTD manual now as well.The CO of the unit just makes a recommendation as well, it is D Mil C who makes the final decision.



Uhuh.  CO with authorities granted by NDA is trumped by staff officer.

This is why we can't have nice things.


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## garb811 (25 Jul 2018)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I've seen a B Surg refuse a transfer, and six months later, with new folks in the chairs, seen the same file hit the new B Surg who asked "Why wasn't this done six months ago?"
> 
> Medicine remains more art than science...


I've had the experience where the BSurg absolutely refused to support a recommendation for a posting to JPSU even though the member's MELs were much more restrictive than those of others they did support.



			
				PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Uhuh.  CO with authorities granted by NDA is trumped by staff officer.
> 
> This is why we can't have nice things.


Well, to be fair, a CO doesn't have the authority to unilaterally post a member of their unit.  Even in the stovepipes like MP and Health Services, the Career Managers belong to CMP and are only "responsive" to the individual Branch advisors.


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## dapaterson (25 Jul 2018)

garb811 said:
			
		

> Even in the stovepipes like MP and Health Services, the Career Managers belong to CMP and are only "responsive" to the individual Branch advisors.



And I've got a nice bridge in Brooklyn for sale...


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## garb811 (25 Jul 2018)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> And I've got a nice bridge in Brooklyn for sale...


Think what you want but I've seen the CFPM lose when he wanted to unilaterally do something that was against the career management policies even though the personnel and positions were solely MP.

But in any case, a posting still doesn't happen on a CO's or a Branch Advisor's authority, that's vested in CMP.  A CO can't even do a formal, internal, position change within HRMS without getting the CM involved.


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## Mediman14 (17 Aug 2018)

If a posting to JPSU is strongly recommended by an BSurg for near future medical release and is supported by a Mbrs CO, how does a Mbr career manager go against them by not allowing it happen? Clearly a BSurg (Maj or LCol) and CO (LCol) get out ranked by a CWO? ???


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## garb811 (17 Aug 2018)

In my experience D Mil C proper makes that call.  It isn’t just the member’s career manager who is involved, via preparing the AR and making their recommendation, JPSU also has their own career manager who makes a recommendation as well. The member’s career manager is then involved after the AR by either cutting the posting message to JPSU if it is approved or transmitting the AR decision if it is negative. 

DMCA and D Med Pol may also provide input when appropriate.


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## Mediman14 (17 Aug 2018)

garb811 said:
			
		

> In my experience D Mil C proper makes that call.  It isn’t just the member’s career manager who is involved, via preparing the AR and making their recommendation, JPSU also has their own career manager who makes a recommendation as well. The member’s career manager is then involved after the AR by either cutting the posting message to JPSU if it is approved or transmitting the AR decision if it is negative.
> 
> DMCA and D Med Pol may also provide input when appropriate.



Thank you for taking the time to explain it to me. We have a lot of policy/ orders, from what I have seen , I have never came across the complete process! Perhaps I am just not looking in the right spot!


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## garb811 (17 Aug 2018)

Well...it's complicated in that each request is looked at on its own merits and sometimes, there are other issues at play that the BSurg and CO may not be aware of when they are making their recommendations.  That is why DMCA and D Med Pol sometimes get brought in to provide input because the BSurg is not the final authority on medical issues, just like the CO is not the final authority on issues such as recommendations for release or retention.

If the member has already had a complete AR/MEL then the process is more cut and dried because the AR/MEL decision message will usually have a statement in there stating if the member is only eligible for posting to JPSU for the last six months prior to release for voc rehab for instance, or if they should be posted immediately due to MELs or case management purposes.


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## kratz (10 Dec 2018)

Resource: Military Career Transition Guide

The Transition Group was formed from JPSU and DCSM. 

Here is the press release:


> Ministers Sajjan and O’Regan announce stand up of Transition Group focused on improving the transition experience of Canadian Armed Forces members, veterans, and their families
> 
> From: National Defence
> 
> ...



More info at link


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