# French Muslim troops refuse Afghanistan duty



## CougarKing (16 Jan 2009)

If what they say is true about their religion forbidding them from fighting fellow Muslims, then how come Iraqi Sunnis were reportedly fighting with Iraqi Shiites not long ago in Iraq when the level of violence there was higher before the surge?




> http://www.military.com/news/article/french-muslim-troo...use-afghan-duty.html
> 
> *French Muslim soldiers have refused to serve in Afghanistan, saying their faith forbids them from fighting fellow Muslims, a military spokesman confirmed to AFP. *
> 
> ...


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## tomahawk6 (16 Jan 2009)

I would be very worried about the reliability of the French Army's muslim troops.


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## geo (16 Jan 2009)

T6.... Whatever happened to that American muslim Sgt who turned on his officers in Iraq?
IIRC he tossed a grenade into the CP.  Did he ever go to trial ?


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## Teflon (16 Jan 2009)

> The army spokesman said the refusal by some soldiers showed a "lack of understanding of their commitment which is to bear arms for France to defend its interests and values at all times and everywhere."



I could be wrong here (not being a Muslim and far from an expert) but don't most Muslims (Muslims of the non extremist variety) look at the extremists as as the ones misinterpreting the teachings of the Koran in direct reverse of the extremist's view of them and there for they would see the extremists as bringing shame and discredit upon their faith?

As I mentioned I'm far from and expert but I would think that they much like our ANSF friends would see no  faith-based conflict with serving in Afghanistan

Any more Muslim faith knowledgeable members care to enlighten me on my take?


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## tomahawk6 (16 Jan 2009)

geo said:
			
		

> T6.... Whatever happened to that American muslim Sgt who turned on his officers in Iraq?
> IIRC he tossed a grenade into the CP.  Did he ever go to trial ?



Yes Akbar went on trial and was convicted.The needle is in his future.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7210-2005Apr21.html

Army Soldier Is Convicted In Attack on Fellow Troops

By Manuel Roig-Franzia
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, April 22, 2005; Page A03 

An Army sergeant who wanted to stop U.S. troops from killing his fellow Muslims was convicted by a military jury yesterday of murdering two colleagues and wounding 14 other soldiers in a chaotic grenade and rifle attack two days after the United States invaded Iraq. 

Hasan Akbar, who turned 34 yesterday, faces the death penalty for the killings at Camp Pennsylvania in Kuwait, which prosecutors said were carefully planned to achieve "maximum carnage." The jury, which deliberated for 2 1/2 hours at Fort Bragg in Fayetteville, N.C., before delivering its guilty verdicts on murder and attempted-murder charges, will reconvene Monday for a death-penalty hearing. 

Both the prosecution and the defense said that Akbar -- who became a Muslim as an adult -- wanted to stop the soldiers of the 101st Airborne Division from killing Muslims. A defense lawyer argued that Akbar was mentally ill. 

The accusation that Akbar was responsible for the attack struck an emotional chord in a military culture built around camaraderie and loyalty -- the "band of brothers" creed. Akbar is the first U.S. service member prosecuted on charges of murdering fellow troops in wartime since the Vietnam War era. 

The attack jarred Camp Pennsylvania not long after 1 a.m. March 23, 2003, as members of the 101st Airborne Division, known as the "Screaming Eagles," were preparing to move from central Kuwait to Iraq. Grenades were rolled into several tents, setting off loud explosions, and shots were fired. 

In the commotion, medics discovered that many of the wounded were members of the 1st Brigade's senior command staff. A search turned up an American soldier, who was taken into custody and later identified as Akbar. 

Capt. Robert McGovern, the military prosecutor in the case, said Akbar acted with a "cool mind" in executing the attack with stolen grenades, according to the Associated Press. 

Defense attorney Maj. Dan Brookhart tried to undermine that accusation by saying that Akbar is mentally ill and was confused on the night of the attacks, not suffering from "the blues" as an Army psychiatrist testified. "It doesn't make sense," Brookhart said, according to the Associated Press. "This guy doesn't have the blues. He's mentally ill." 

The initial shock of Akbar's arrest was followed by vexing questions about his possible motives. Military officials disclosed that he had been repeatedly disciplined for insubordination and was being held back from advancing with his unit -- the 326th Engineering Battalion. A spokesman for the 101st said he had an "attitude problem." 

Nothing about Akbar's upbringing seemed to presage the act of violence that gave him a measure of infamy. He was born Mark Fidel Kools, but his mother changed his name to Hasan Akbar. He had risen out of the rough Watts neighborhood of Los Angeles to earn aeronautical and mechanical engineering degrees at the University of California at Davis. 

He later joined the Army and was stationed at Fort Campbell, which straddles the border between Kentucky and Tennessee. Neighbors painted conflicting pictures of him, with at least one describing Akbar as a "typical bachelor" with a garbage can filled with pizza boxes and beer bottles. Another neighbor said Akbar refused a beer at a cookout, citing his Muslim beliefs. 

Akbar rose through the ranks to a low-level leadership position. In Kuwait, he was in charge of a unit that cleared land mines. 

Akbar's mother, Quran Bilal of Baton Rouge, La., told reporters that he had skipped the 1991 Persian Gulf War because it conflicted with his religious faith. Military officials initially said they did not believe Akbar's religious beliefs had anything to do with the attack he was accused of committing in Kuwait. But not long after his arrest, Akbar's mother told reporters that she sensed his Muslim beliefs were creating tensions in his battalion as it prepared to invade a predominantly Muslim nation. 

One of the men Akbar killed -- Air Force Maj. Gregory Stone, 43 -- was pelted by 83 pieces of shrapnel. The other was Army Capt. Christopher Seifert, 27. When they laid Seifert to rest in Pennsylvania, three of his old ROTC buddies mourned. They had once called themselves "The Four Musketeers."


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## leroi (16 Jan 2009)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> I would be very worried about the reliability of the French Army's muslim troops.



As a civilian this kind of story scares me. I don't want to be flamed and admit that I'm here to learn so please feel free to correct me or put me in my place if my ignorance is too over-the-top.

But, the only logical conclusion I draw from this story about French muslim soldiers refusing to serve in Afghanistan is that they are al-qaeda mole-martyrs working against us from the inside.

As I've understood the Canadian military, one cannot serve their country with divided loyalties. Is this not also true for other armies such as the French? 
Is it not stupidly dangerous to keep such people in an army especially considering the nature of al' qaeda ideology and glorification of martyrdom?


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## George Wallace (16 Jan 2009)

leroi

What you say does make sense, and points out the differences in different nation's militaries.  Some are more rigid than others.  Some are more professional than others.   There are so many differences between the military of one nation and that of another, that it would be hard to accurately list them in one short post.  It is also a point of contention amongst many of the members, serving and retired, of the CF when a Leftie, a new immigrant, or anyone with no idea of what the CF is, lumps the CF and all Armed Forces into one narrow viewed category.  The CF is not the US Army.  The CF is not the Israeli Defence Force, not the Australian Defence Force.  The CF is not the Rwandan Army, nor the Panimanian Army.  They are all different.  Some are very good and professional.  Many are not.  

When it comes to loyalties, that is a matter that is difficult to judge at times, as a person, from any background and in any job, may hide their true loyalties, until such time as they are "called out".  A military would, in many cases, be the same as any other employer, but you are correct in assuming that it would be much less likely.


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## Sonnyjim (16 Jan 2009)

Anybody who joins a modern army knows that the middle east/ muslim africa is a hotspot waiting to burst(not that is already hasn't). So what they need to do is put a clear statement into the pre-enrolment questionaire clearly stating that they will be required to be active in duties which involve the act of killing, or supporting the killing/fighting of people of all backgrounds, faiths, etc. Not that anybody who joins the army shouldn't already know this. And if they refuse then kick them the hell out.


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## leroi (16 Jan 2009)

Thank you, Mr. Wallace. That puts it in better perspective. I sure hope the Canadian Forces continue to emphasize loyalty as a most important value.


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## tomahawk6 (16 Jan 2009)

The muslims living in France have not been asimilated into French society to the extent they are in Canada and the US. This is not a condemnation of all French muslims but the extremist types use religion as an excuse not to serve. Frankly that should be a red flag for security screeners.A refusal to deploy should be dismissal from the military.The bad guys dont have any qualms about killing other muslims. This is a real problem where religion trumps national loyalty.


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## IntlBr (16 Jan 2009)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> The bad guys dont have any qualms about killing other muslims.



Not trying to pick apart your post, or be a smartass - but these are the bad guys we're talking about.  While I agree with the idea of your point, the bad guys generally don't have much of a problem killing anyone.


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## geo (17 Jan 2009)

"The refusal to be assigned to a mission for religious reasons is a micro-phenomenon concerning fewer than five cases per year," 

Methinks that this should be put into perspective.
Considering the size of the French army, this sounds like a tempest in a teacup.  If we scratch the surface, I am positive we will find several in the CF who have found ways of being excluded from deployment.


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## Kat Stevens (17 Jan 2009)

That was my grounds for refusing to go to Afghanistan too:  "I refuse to be deployed, on the grounds that, as many AQ and Taliban are recruited from mosques in the east end of London, I may be called upon to kill a fellow West Ham United supporter, and it's not like there are many of us as it is."


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## Journeyman (17 Jan 2009)

As Acting/Deputy/Assistant [WSE] Cubicle Dweller 2-1-8 (non-window view), my job is _much_ too critical for me to be deployed
...except for a Thirty-TWO day, medal-earning TAV, of course    ;D


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## jollyjacktar (18 Jan 2009)

Teflon said:
			
		

> I could be wrong here (not being a Muslim and far from an expert) but don't most Muslims (Muslims of the non extremist variety) look at the extremists as as the ones misinterpreting the teachings of the Koran in direct reverse of the extremist's view of them and there for they would see the extremists as bringing shame and discredit upon their faith?
> 
> As I mentioned I'm far from and expert but I would think that they much like our ANSF friends would see no  faith-based conflict with serving in Afghanistan
> 
> Any more Muslim faith knowledgeable members care to enlighten me on my take?



As I have mentioned before my wife is a convert.  Now we don't discuss her beliefs or religion much or often as I am an athiest and well lets just say it's not pretty at times.  But yes, the extremeists are hi-jacking the religion for their own means.  The shit they do is on the whole haram, forbidden by the Koran.  As I understand it anyways.  But for every rule there are exceptions and killing is allowed in times of war but I believe this is mostly intended for the do's and don'ts an Islamic LOAC if you will.  Even Christianity says do not kill in the 10 commandments but it is overlooked in times of war.  

I may be muddled up and have it buggered up.  My apologies if I do, please correct me if I have.


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## Teflon (19 Jan 2009)

jollyjacktar

Thanks I was pretty sure that my take on it was close but I don't really have anyone I know well with a Muslim background in which to ask. Extremists tend to pervert their interpretation of their "higher being's" will regardless what holy texts pertain to their religion.


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## geo (19 Jan 2009)

Lest we forget the Spanish Inquisition or the Salem Witch Hunt(s)...
Extremism is something that can happen under any faith.


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## jollyjacktar (19 Jan 2009)

Geo, yes sadly there are no end of examples of man's inhumanity to man over the ages with some religious bent added to spice it up.  I suppose it will always be so too.  Shameful.

Teflon, your welcome.  But as I said I may have it muddled.  There are some forum members of the faith, they may wish to add or detract from my post and clarify.


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