# Fates of former armouries



## pbi

As I've travelled and lived around the country, I've occasionally run across structures (usually, but not always, in smaller towns) that quite obviously were once armouries. Today these buildings serve diverse purposes ranging from community centre to theatre to fire hall.
While former CF bases are pretty well covered on the internet at places like _Abandoned Bases_, I haven't seen much on former armouries.

I'm aware of several in Ontario:

-Durham ON ;
-Meaford ON;
-London ON
-Gananoque ON (former RCA Bty); and
Picton ON (former Hast&PER Coy)

I believe that most of these were former coy/sqn/bty locations that fell victim to the drastic cuts to outlying sub-units that happened around the Unification era.

Are you aware of any in your area? What unit occupied them, and what are they used for today?

Cheers


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## Humphrey Bogart

The North Shore Regiment's old armoury in Bathurst, NB.  The government built them a brand new one in the 90's







This building later sat empty for a number of years, then became an outdoor/backpacking store.  It is now used by the city as an HQ for their local summer festival every year.

Another photo:


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## pbi

Was it originally built as an armoury? I ask because it looks a lot like the pattern of Post Office buildings that were constructed around the first quarter of the 20th century: especially the clock tower.


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## Old Sweat

The armoury in Kemptville, Ontario served as the local fire hall after the battery was disbanded in one of the force cuts in the sixties. With the construction of a new fire hall the building has been put to use by the local Sea Cadet Corps. 

The building was used for a memorial service for Private Blake Williamson, 1 RCR, who was killed in Afghanistan in October 2006.


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## Edward Campbell

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> The armoury in Kemptville, Ontario served as the local fire hall after the battery was disbanded in one of the force cuts in the sixties. With the construction of a new fire hall the building has been put to use by the local Sea Cadet Corps.
> 
> The building was used for a memorial service for Private Blake Williamson, 1 RCR, who was killed in Afghanistan in October 2006.



Is this the building?






The St. Lawrence Swordfighters Guild   :-\  says it was the "old fire hall."


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## pbi

The former armoury in Gananoque is almost identical: it was also a Bty armoury. It later became the town fire hall, with the apparatus doors cut into the long face of the structure rather than on the end as in Kemptville. When the town built a new fire hall, the building became part of the Gananoque Theatre, which it still is.


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## jpjohnsn

The Courthouse in Midland Ontario used to be an armoury used by the "C" Sqn Grey and Simcoe Foresters (RCAC).   Even though the G&SF stopped being armoured  - and pulled out of town - well before I ever moved to Midland, I do distinctly recall a Sherman Tank behind the building in the late 70s when I was checking out the air cadets.   The building became the Midland Civic Centre (which housed the Air and Sea Cadet units in town) until it was remodelled to be the courthouse.

here it is on Google Streetviewhttp://goo.gl/maps/OqXoJ

Speaking of G&SF, their original drill shed in downtown Barrie is now the Regimental Museum after being a farmer's market, youth drop-in centre, and MPP constituency office.  

Again, on streetview http://goo.gl/maps/ac9LI


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## Old Sweat

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Is this the building?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The St. Lawrence Swordfighters Guild   :-\  says it was the "old fire hall."



That is it. Most of the space is taken up by floor which in earlier times served for parades and inspections, and then became parking for the volunteer fire department's vehicles.


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## Humphrey Bogart

pbi said:
			
		

> Was it originally built as an armoury? I ask because it looks a lot like the pattern of Post Office buildings that were constructed around the first quarter of the 20th century: especially the clock tower.



pbi you are correct!  It was originally built as a post office but turned into an armoury, I wll try and confirm when the unit took possession of it.


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## Edward Campbell

pbi said:
			
		

> The former armoury in Gananoque is almost identical: it was also a Bty armoury. It later became the town fire hall, with the apparatus doors cut into the long face of the structure rather than on the end as in Kemptville. When the town built a new fire hall, the building became part of the Gananoque Theatre, which it still is.




This: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and this 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 look like it.


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## pbi

That's it: you beat me to it (As per my PM). The entrance of the theatre is one of the apparatus doors of the fire hall version, suitably modified.  

The armoury was home to 3rd Field Bty, RCA NPAM (in 1939 part of 9th Fd Bde, RCA NPAM) until disbandment. It looks like there was a standard pattern for a sub-unit armoury, as the old one in Meaford (behind the Town Hall, next to the old fire hall: now part of a store) was for "B" Coy/G&SF.


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## pbi

Wikipedia provides an article with list of armouries across Canada (although some of the info is wrong: the old Cobourg Armoury was never the home of the Hast&PER: it was an RCA armoury) 

The list is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_armouries_in_Canada

_- mod edit to fix link -_


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## BernDawg

Interesting thread. I stumbled across this as I was looking for a hotel in London ON for a forum I was planning on attending.





There is more info here:
https://www.deltahotels.com/Hotels/Delta-London-Armouries-Hotel


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## pbi

Cool. How well have they preserved the armoury theme?


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## AmmoTech90

Wallis House at the end of Rideau Street in Ottawa was an armoury from the fifties/sixties until the early nineties.  It is now condos.  Prior to being an armoury it was social housing, a flop house, barracks, a seminary, and started out as a hospital.  When I paraded there it was occupied by 28 Svc Bn and 763 (Ottawa) Comm Regt.  The linemen occupied a tiny room in the basement that had around a foot high block at the bottom of the door you had to step over.  Apparently the room had been the morgue when it was a hospital.

Interesting fact, during the Turkish Embassy hostage incident police were positioned in the attic as you could see the Embassy from up there.


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## Edward Campbell

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> Wallis House at the end of Rideau Street in Ottawa was an armoury from the fifties/sixties until the early nineties.  It is now condos.  Prior to being an armoury it was social housing, a flop house, barracks, a seminary, and started out as a hospital.  When I paraded there it was occupied by 28 Svc Bn and 763 (Ottawa) Comm Regt.  The linemen occupied a tiny room in the basement that had around a foot high block at the bottom of the door you had to step over.  Apparently the room had been the morgue when it was a hospital.
> 
> Interesting fact, during the Turkish Embassy hostage incident police were positioned in the attic as you could see the Embassy from up there.




A few pictures of Wallis House:






   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Top row: Circa 1959 - when Ottawa still had streetcars & The heritage plaque 
Bottom row: Wallis House today


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## FJAG

Chatham-Kent Armouries 

http://armouryfourdiamondcatering.com/history.html


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## Fishbone Jones

The old Windsor Armoury. Housed The Windsor Regiment (RCAC), The Essex & Kent Scottish and 21 Service Battalion. We moved out in October 2004 and relocated to the Major F A Tilston, V C Armoury and Police Training Centre. It's a joint facility that we share with the Windsor Police. There's a rappel tower, a kill house (simunition), a 100 mtr outdoor range (that DND still hasn't approved after ten years  : ) and a 25 mtr indoor range (that they may be able to use again if the 4 Div HQ can ever get around to resubmitting the expired MOU with the city  : ). Three messes, each unit has their own office lines, RQM and SQ (CQ) stores, shared drill deck, dirty work area, a unified OR with each unit providing their own clerks and a large vehicle compound, as well as a large parking lot in front for parade nights.

The old armoury was given to the city in a land swap deal and has now been ceded to the University of Windsor who will revamp it for their visual arts and music programs. http://www.dcnonl.com/article/id46635


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## a_majoor

The military theme of London, ON's "Delta armouries" hotel extends only as far as the exterior facade.

If I remember correctly, one of the reasons the Armouries was abandoned was the interior was not up to any sort of modern building standard or fire code, so the building sat empty for many years until the hotel company bought the property, gutted the interior and built the hotel inside the shell.


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## FormerHorseGuard

The former Amouries in Renfrew, Ontario is now home to the fodo bank and is rental hall and is owned by the local fair board.


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## FJAG

I wanted to put in a picture of the first armoury I paraded at when I joined the 7th Toronto Regiment back in 1965. They had just moved everyone out of the old University Avenue Armouries and put us into a temporary armoury at 87 Richmond Street East until the Moss Park Armouries were built.

Unfortunately its a car park lot now  :'(


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## pbi

Thucydides said:
			
		

> If I remember correctly, one of the reasons the Armouries was abandoned was the interior was not up to any sort of modern building standard or fire code, so the building sat empty for many years until the hotel company bought the property, gutted the interior and built the hotel inside the shell.



This is an increasingly common problem with old armouries. There was a surge in armoury construction in the years immediately preceding WWI, with the result that we still have a large stock of buildings that are now 100 years old, or older. 

When I was with 38 CBG (2002-2005) we had two armouries in Winnipeg that were seriously showing their age. The FGH armoury in the old North End was actually settling and cracking in half (a common problem for old buildings in Winnipeg as in some places there is no bedrock for nearly 200 feet) and the much larger Minto Armoury in the old West End was developing all sorts of structural and sysetmic problems. AFAIK, both are still in use. (rifleman can confirm this)


What is really amazing is how private purchasers are able to buy these from PW&GSC and actually turn them into functional, useful and safe structures. It must be an expensive undertaking.


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## WLSC

This is now & then of different armory FMR got

Marché Bonsecour today.  We where there around 1880.



The current armory brand new, 1910







Today


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## Rheostatic

What unit worked there?





			
				FormerHorseGuard said:
			
		

> The former Amouries in Renfrew, Ontario is now home to the fodo bank and is rental hall and is owned by the local fair board.


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## Canadian.Trucker

jpjohnsn said:
			
		

> Speaking of G&SF, their original drill shed in downtown Barrie is now the Regimental Museum after being a farmer's market, youth drop-in centre, and MPP constituency office.
> 
> Again, on streetview http://goo.gl/maps/ac9LI


Sadly the future of the museum is in question, so if anyone is swinging through Barrie please drop in.
Hours of operation:
May through November

Wednesday to Friday 11:00 am to 4:00 pm
Saturday 10:00 am to 3:00 pm

Website - http://thegreyandsimcoeforesters.org/jsite/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=78&Itemid=72


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## Gorgo

Rheostatic said:
			
		

> What unit worked there?



I would suspect "A" Company of the Lanark and Renfrew Scottish Regiment; they were shifted from Renfrew to Pembroke in 1970 according to _The Canadian Militia_.


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## pbi

FJAG said:
			
		

> I wanted to put in a picture of the first armoury I paraded at when I joined the 7th Toronto Regiment back in 1965. They had just moved everyone out of the old University Avenue Armouries and put us into a temporary armoury at 87 Richmond Street East until the Moss Park Armouries were built.
> 
> Unfortunately its a car park lot now  :'(



Do you recall the old Falaise Armoury down on Queen's Quay? I think there was an RCA Medium Regt there until very early 70's.


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## FJAG

pbi said:
			
		

> Do you recall the old Falaise Armoury down on Queen's Quay? I think there was an RCA Medium Regt there until very early 70's.



I never paraded there but a number of my fellow gunners had. 

The 7th Toronto was an amalgamation of the several units. 29th Fd Regt had been at University Ave Armouries and had moved into Richmond sharing space with the Queen's Own Rifles. 42nd Medium had moved into Falaise where it shared the Armouries with 1st Locating Regt. 

Just before I joined in 1965 29th was redesignated 7th Toronto while at the same time 42nd Med and 1 Loc went onto the Sup Order of Battle and their people were merged in with us. I was sent down to Falaise once or twice on a work party to move some gear.

The whole lot of us (as well as the QOR, 48th Highlanders and a Service Bn) moved into Moss Park Armouries when it opened in 1966.


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## pbi

Rheostatic said:
			
		

> What unit worked there?



Originally the militia air-defense artillery unit based in Pembroke, which later became the Lanark and Renfrew Scottish. (I might have that lineage wrong...)


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## dapaterson

pbi said:
			
		

> Originally the militia air-defense artillery unit based in Pembroke, which later became the Lanark and Renfrew Scottish. (I might have that lineage wrong...)



L&R Scots were converted to AD in 1992 - I recall an eager young officer cadet from that unit in Gagetown, returning after a medical RTU the prior summer, being unceremoniously kicked out of the shacks by DS at the Infantry School when the message came in and having to haul all his kit over to the artillery school.


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## pbi

Here is a bit more, from Wiki:



> On 1 April 1946 the regiment was converted to artillery and redesignated '59th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment (Lanark and Renfrew Scottish), RCA'.8 On 1 December 1959 the regiment was converted to infantry and redesignated 'The Lanark and Renfrew Scottish Regiment'.9 On 10 November 1992 the regiment was converted to artillery and redesignated '1st Air Defence Regiment (Lanark and Renfrew Scottish), RCA'.10



The current Regtl 2IC (who was the RegF CO when it was most recently an AD unit) told me that there were once marks in the drill floor where the outrigger feet of the 40mm Bofors guns rested on it.


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## SeaKingTacco

In Pembroke?  I doubt the floor of that Armoury would take the weight of even a 40 mm Bofors.  It is a wooden floored armoury over a crawl space basement...I may have been in that Armoury- once or twice.


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## pbi

Hmmm. I will check and verify. ???


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## garb811

Olds, Alberta has a former armoury which housed A Sqn, KO Calg R back in the day.  It's still in use as a recreation center with an Air Cadet Squadron parading there.


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## FormerHorseGuard

Renfrew Armouries was home to the L&R Scots, not sure which company, as they had units in Carleton Place, Renfrew, Perth, and Pembroke.
Now just a RCA unit in Pembroke. 
As for the floor, they  do park a 105MM gun on the floor for training and there is an Anti-aircraft gun of some sort parked on the floor. 
I heard they had to do some re engineering of the floor to support the added weight of the guns.


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## RHLIDRUMMER

The Dundas Armouries  is nowhere Recreation Center.It use to be the home of the  102LAA RCA later 11th Field Btty. The Sea Air Cadets still use it.


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## RHLIDRUMMER

The Niagara Falls armouries on Victoria Ave. is now the Niagara Falls Mïlitary Museum.It at one time housed the 10thBtty of the 56thFR RCA.


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## pbi

There is a sub-unit size armoury in Durham ON (S of Owen Sound). Does anybody know what unit was in there?


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## Michael OLeary

Some evolution of this company, which is part of the G&SF heritage:

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/his/ol-lo/vol-tom-3/par2/gsf-eng.asp

'No. 4 Company (Volunteer Militia Company of Infantry at Durham,6 February 1863)


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## Vanguard48

Adding onto Rhlidrummer's comment here is a link to the old Lincoln and Welland Regiment's armoury in Niagara Falls. 

Link: http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM15HE_Niagara_Falls_Armoury_D_Coy_of_The_Lincoln_welland_Regt

Presumably it hosted D-Company in the 70's and 80's as I remember talking to a former member about this location and his time spent there. Sadly it is closing down soon I have heard.


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## Gorgo

RHLIDRUMMER said:
			
		

> The Niagara Falls armouries on Victoria Ave. is now the Niagara Falls Mïlitary Museum.It at one time housed the 10thBtty of the 56thFR RCA.



And D Company of the Lincoln and Welland Regiment.  As soon as the armoury was declared surplus, D Company was stood down and C Company stood up in Welland.


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## pbi

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> In Pembroke?  I doubt the floor of that Armoury would take the weight of even a 40 mm Bofors.  It is a wooden floored armoury over a crawl space basement...I may have been in that Armoury- once or twice.



I was wrong: the Regtl 2iC advises me that it was in the former armoury in Perth, which is now a church.


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## cupper

Not quite fitting into the thread theme but it looks like Halifax is getting a new armoury to be built in Willow Park.

The current Halifax Armouries on the Halifax Commons will continue to be used due to a lack of training space in Halifax.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/111670/post-1248462/topicseen.html#new


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## pbi

cupper said:
			
		

> Not quite fitting into the thread theme but it looks like Halifax is getting a new armoury to be built in Willow Park.
> 
> The current Halifax Armouries on the Halifax Commons will continue to be used due to a lack of training space in Halifax.
> 
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/111670/post-1248462/topicseen.html#new



This is a problem which existed at least twenty years ago and is going to get much, much worse as armouries (especially multi-unit armouries) reach the end of their life spans, or simply no loner are physically capable of providing the needed space and facilities without hugely expensive renovations.

As an example, when I was in LFCA HQ in 98-2000, we estimated that at the then-current rate of recapitalization funding, it would take over 100 years to replace all our armouries. I'm pretty sure other LFA's faced very similar situations. Some of these old buildings simply won't be able to stay standing that long.


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## Marauder

I was married in the 'Gunnery Room' of the London Delta (the ball room located on the outside wall beside Waterloo St) and IIRC there was a display case showing some photos of the Armoury back in its heyday, so there are a few reminders. When you see the roof line in the big atrium they have outside the ballrooms, there's no mistaking the similarity to the interior roofline of the old Chatham armoury (IMO).

Speaking of which, being former E&K, I spent time in the old Chatham armoury before the new 'public school' looking one was built in the south side of the city next to the ethanol plant. The urban legend amongst the ranks was that only CF members were allowed in the old one at the time because the building was condemned and civilian pers were not allowed to set foot inside due to reasons of liability. Likely grossly false, but it was a *very* "well used" armoury, with an antique wood floor (and possessed of more character than I think it's replacement could accumulate in three centuries of service).

I missed feeling the history of the old Windsor armouries when coming in a Tuesday night after the move to Tilston, but having served in both as well, the set up at Tilston is much roomier and functional for a motorized present rather than a horse drawn past. The "issue" surrounding the ranges notwithstanding, I thought Tilston much more than just adequate  (from a CPL's POV).

I can't help but feel I am 'losing' another bit of personally connected geographical military history soon since it seems that everything except 'A' Block, the CBG HQ, Beaver Hall, the MIR, and the 'MSA' building on Wolseley is going to feel the wrecking ball in the near future for what I think to be short sighted motivations. We went from almost getting a whole floor in Glacis Building to being constrained to a classroom and single office in the MIR (though the computers there do actually work, so bonus for the new subbie). Oh well, perhaps it will help in some larger sense to build an updated cubicle farm on the Nortel Campus. Hmmm, now to find the sarcasm font...


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## RHLIDRUMMER

I don't have a picture but the YWCA in Peterborough sure looks like it could have been an Armoury at one time.


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## Michael OLeary

Listowel Armoury, now used by the Listowel Agricultural Society

Chatham Armoury, now occupied by RBC Dominion Securities and Four Diamond Catering

Watford Armoury (Drill Hall), now a fire hall.


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## Petard

A lot of these former armouries can be found in link below (the example in the search is for the former one in Niagara falls)
www.historicplaces.ca/en/rep-reg/place-lieu.aspx?id=9870&pid=0


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## dapaterson

Hillside Armoury in Westmount has been vacated by 34 CER, after ~45 years of being told that the unit's departure was imminent.  It's likely the building will be demolished, as there are leaks, mould and structural deficiencies.

There's an article about 1/3 of the way down this page discussing it: http://aroundwestmount.com/events-past-2-3/

Tombstone data from TBS is at: http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/dfrp-rbif/pn-nb/07064-eng.aspx


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## Oldgateboatdriver

Fond memories of mess dinners at that armoury. Sad to see it go instead of being fixed up.


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## dapaterson

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Fond memories of mess dinners at that armoury. Sad to see it go instead of being fixed up.



The final dinner was held on the parade square on 12 April this year.  Given the state of the building and the inability to retrofit it to meet modern (or even 1970s) health and safety standards at anything close to a reasonable cost, it's not a surprise that it's closed.

I seem to recall reading that of the three options initially considered - renovate, rebuild, and relocate - that renovate was the most expensive and least functional.  Add to it the problem that there's no exterior space for vehicle storage at all, and it's even more understandable that it would close.


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## Michael OLeary

Wingham Armoury


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## pbi

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Fond memories of mess dinners at that armoury. Sad to see it go instead of being fixed up.



I spent quite a while in Hillside Armoury in 1976 during the Olympics. I was a rifleman in the D&S Platoon of TF2, which had its HQ in the Armoury: I spent many shifts on sentry or local patrol there.  A very interesting old structure: I was told that it was originally the warehouse and stables of a delivery service.


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## Remius

The Aberdeen pavilion at lansdowne park in Ottawa housed the LSH before they departed for the boer war.  Also was used by the PPCLI in WW1 and was the CHofO and Princess Louise Dragoons in WW2. Unrelated is the fact that it hosted a Stanley cup once...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberdeen_Pavilion


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## 171292

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> The armoury in Kemptville, Ontario served as the local fire hall after the battery was disbanded in one of the force cuts in the sixties. With the construction of a new fire hall the building has been put to use by the local Sea Cadet Corps.
> 
> The building was used for a memorial service for Private Blake Williamson, 1 RCR, who was killed in Afghanistan in October 2006.



Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but would you happen to know what regiment used the Kemptville armoury?  My neighbor, who served in the 30th Field Artillery in the early 60's, mentioned that the 30th Field Artillery had a battery stationed in the Kemptville armoury, just wondering if anyone can confirm this.  Tried searching the web and the forums, never found anything much about the history of the Kemptville armoury.  Thanks!


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## Old Sweat

171292 said:
			
		

> Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but would you happen to know what regiment used the Kemptville armoury?  My neighbor, who served in the 30th Field Artillery in the early 60's, mentioned that the 30th Field Artillery had a battery stationed in the Kemptville armoury, just wondering if anyone can confirm this.  Tried searching the web and the forums, never found anything much about the history of the Kemptville armoury.  Thanks!



I was told it was the 30th Field, but will confirm this when I get home.


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## FJAG

Just did a quick scan of Part II of the RCA Standing Orders and found that the following batteries were founded at Kemptville:

2 Feb 1920 - 25 Field Battery RCA;

1 Apr 1946 - 181 Light Anti-Aircraft Battery RCA;

The lineage for 30th Fd Regt indicates that it started as 8th Bde FA CA in 1905 and redesignated as 1st Bde CFA on 2 Feb 1920 on which date 25 Fd Bty was formed and assigned to it. (There was an earlier 25th Battery CFA [formed in Lethbridge 1908] and a 25th Battery CFA which was part of 6th Bde CFA of the CEF during WW1 --- I note that the nominal rolls for 6th Bde indicate it was raised in the Montreal region of Quebec so I don't think that there is [nor have I seen any reference to] a perpetuation between the two 25 Bties CFA and 25 Fd Bty RCA) 

I note that 25th Fd Bty RCA was part of 30th Fd Regt's establishment in 1966 but had been switched to the Supplementary Order of Battle by 2000. No idea when the switch actually happened.

The info on 181 LAA Bty is even more sketchy and the Library and Archives Canada entry for the Guide to Sources relating to the Canadian Milita (Artillery) for the two batteries looks like this:

25 Battery:

"25th Battery, CFA authorized but not organized (1st Brigade, CFA). Headquarters to be
at Ottawa (MD3), 2 February 1920.
Redesignated as 25th Field Battery but not organized, 1 July 1925.
Authorized to organize, 15 May 1928.
Placed on active service (18th Field Regiment), 10 May 1941.
Active unit converted and redesignated as 25th Medium Battery (2nd Medium
Regiment), 26 January 1942.
Active unit disbanded, 3 October 1945.
25th Medium Battery redesignated as 68th Medium Battery (active Force), 1 March
1946.
25th (Reserve) Field Battery amalgamated with the 51st (Reserve) Anti-Aircraft Battery,
type 4L, converted and redesignated as 25th Field Battery (30th Field Regiment), 1 April
1946.
Transferred from Ottawa to Kemptville, 31 March 1965."

and

181 Battery:

"Authorized (60th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment (Brockville Rifles)). Headquarters at
Kemptville, Ontario (MD3), 1 April 1946.
60th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment, including 181st Light Anti-Aircraft Battery,
amalgamated with the 32nd Anti-Tank Battery (Self-Propelled) to form the 32nd
Locating Battery (Brockville Rifles), 1 September 1954."

Over to you OldSweat.

 :cheers:


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## Old Sweat

Good work, FJAG.

I have a couple of buds who served in the militia in Kemptville. I might be able to get a battery designation out of them. They also were volunteer firemen, so I might get a lead there re when the armoury became the fire hall. As some of us remember all too well, the mid to late 60s was a time of almost continual force cuts for both the regular and reserve force.


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## FJAG

There was a particularly heavy reorganization in 1965 by Hellyer based on the Suttie Commission Report. I joined late that year just as three regiments in Toronto (29th Fd, 42nd Med and 1 Loc) were amalgamated under the banner of 7th Toronto Regt RCA. I think any changes subsequent to that within the Canadian Militia artillery were relatively minor fine tuning ones.

Still not sure when 25 battery went though because the standing orders have it on 30th Fd OB as late as '66. Would have thought however if the armoury was actually still active as late as '65 it would have gone as part of the Suttie reorg for sure. - just a guess though.

 :cheers:


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## Wolseleydog

Just to respond to an older question way back in this thread (as I sit here sipping my morning coffee surfing):

I can personally confirm that both the Minto and McGregor armouries in Winnipeg are still in active use.

My son just joined the FGH, which parades at McGregor with, I believe, a Fd Engr unit, and the local Bde recruiting office (where he was sworn in one frigid Feb night earlier this year) was at Minto.

He is currently at BMQ, in of all places, Nanaimo BC.  Why the Garries had to send him all the way out there is unclear to me, but there we are...


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## exspy

FJAG said:
			
		

> ...so I don't think that there is [nor have I seen any reference to] a perpetuation between the two 25 Bties CFA and 25 Fd Bty RCA)



According to my copy of the 1936 Defence Forces List the 25th Battery, CFA, of the CEF was perpetuated by 25th Field Battery, CA.

At this time the occupant of the armoury in Kemptville was Company B of The Grenville Regiment (Lisgar Rifles).  No, I'd never heard of them either.  I think this regiment disappeared through amalgamation in the 1936 NPAM reorganization but I don't yet know with whom.

Cheers,
Dan.


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## Old Sweat

I have a copy of the 1936 reorganization at home and will have a look for it. A host of infantry regiments were converted to artillery and other corps to provide a corps structure on mobilization. And if anyone notices, my bud who served in the artillery in the 60s in Kemptville is away for another week or so.


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## Michael OLeary

50TH FIELD ARTILLERY REGIMENT (THE PRINCE OF WALES RANGERS), RCA

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/his/ol-lo/vol-tom-3/par1/art/50far-eng.asp



> The *Grenville Regiment (Lisgar Rifles)* originated in Prescott, Ontario on 12 April 1867, when the '56th "Prescott" Battalion of Infantry' was authorized to be formed. It was redesignated: '56th "Grenville" Battalion of Infantry' on 9 August 1867; '56th Grenville Battalion of Rifles' on 13 September 1871; '56th Grenville Battalion "Lisgar Rifles"' on 29 September 1871; '56th Grenville Regiment "Lisgar Rifles"' on 8 May 1900; and 'The Grenville Regiment (Lisgar Rifles)' on 12 March 1920. On 15 December 1936, it was amalgamated with the '56th Field Battery, RCA', as above.


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## Old Sweat

Thanks, Michael. You obviously survived Pachino Day.


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## Blackadder1916

Dan M said:
			
		

> According to my copy of the 1936 Defence Forces List the 25th Battery, CFA, of the CEF was perpetuated by 25th Field Battery, CA.
> 
> At this time the occupant of the armoury in Kemptville was Company B of The Grenville Regiment (Lisgar Rifles).  No, I'd never heard of them either.  I think this regiment disappeared through amalgamation in the 1936 NPAM reorganization but I don't yet know with whom.
> 
> Cheers,
> Dan.



Digging into the internet archives of the now defunct Regiments.org found this.

http://web.archive.org/web/20041215032002/http://www.regiments.org/regiments/na-canada/volmil/on-inf/056grenv.htm
 1867.04.12      56th Prescott Battalion of Infantry 
 1867?              56th Grenville Battalion of Infantry 
 1871.09.13      56th Grenville Battalion of Rifles 
 1871.09.29      56th Battalion Lisgar Rifles 
 1900.05.08      56th Grenville Regiment (Lisgar Rifles) 
 1920.03.15      The Grenville Regiment (Lisgar Rifles)
                        _reconstituted in Militia with HQ at Kemptville, Ont._ 
 1921.02.15      _reorganised to perpetuate CEF_:  
                       •1st Battalion, _without perpetuation_
                       •2nd (Reserve) Battalion

 1936.12.15     56th (Grenville) Field Battery, 4th Field Brigade, RCA
                      _converted to artillery_


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## The Bread Guy

This from The Canadian Press via localexpress.ca:


> An emotional fight over an armoury in rural Nova Scotia could be a precursor of things to come for other small towns as the military moves to get rid of hundreds of buildings across the country.
> 
> Confusion has run rampant in Amherst, a town of 10,000 on the border with New Brunswick, since resident Russell Clarke received a letter from the Department of National Defence a few weeks ago.
> 
> "It was quite simple," the 93-year-old Second World War veteran said in an interview. "They said the armoury would go on the block for sale or demolition at some point."
> 
> The armoury was built in 1915 and later named after James Layton Ralston, the Amherst native who served as Canada's defence minister for most of the Second World War.
> 
> The building was the longtime home of the North Nova Scotia Highlanders, which lost nearly 500 members during the Second World War and remains active as a reserve unit today.
> 
> But the Nova Scotia Highlanders, as they are now known, moved to another town in 2006, leaving the unit's regimental museum and three cadet corps as the armoury's only occupants.
> 
> Many locals believed at the time that the move was temporary, as the federal government promised to renovate the armoury in 2010.
> 
> But fears mounted when the repairs weren't finished, which is why Clarke, who belongs to the North Nova Scotia Highlanders memory club, wrote to National Defence about the building.
> 
> Amherst Mayor David Kogon, who sent his own letter to Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan about the armoury in March, said even without the Highlanders, the building remains a focal point for Amherst.
> 
> "They need this as a place to train and learn and do their functions," he said of the cadets. "And we have a lot of veterans in this community. There are a lot of people that are being touched by this."
> 
> Retired chief warrant officer Ray Coulson, who now runs the Nova Scotia Highlander regimental museum, said without the armoury, the cadet corps and museum would disappear.
> 
> "If you're in downtown Ottawa, these things don't seem to be too big a deal," Coulson said. "But when you're out in a town with a population of 10,000, this is a big deal." ...


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## jollyjacktar

Some here in the office mentioned that when they were back in Halifax last month for a coastal visit, they were told the Armouries at the Commons is being sold off.  Is this true?


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## Monsoon

My question: where were the cries of anguish when the regiment that filled that armoury left town? People are heartbroken to lose a pretty old building, but if they'd given a damn about what used to happen in that building this wouldn't be an issue for them now.


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## McG

I am sure if the town really wants the armouries as a community building, then they can arrange transfer of the property from the federal government. (And once they own the building they can fund the upkeep)



			
				milnews.ca said:
			
		

> This from The Canadian Press via localexpress.ca:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... as the military moves to get rid of hundreds of buildings across the country.
> 
> ...
Click to expand...

I assume some of these "hundreds of buildings" are unused infrastructure on various bases around the country, but the example in the article is of DND off-loading an entire footprint in a community.  I don't suppose anybody has numbers of "footprints" DND will divest as opposed to buildings removed from land that will be retained?


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## Fishbone Jones

Private financing. They turned the armoury in London into a hotel and the one in Windsor is becoming a music facility and concert hall for the University of Windsor. I believe Edmonton turned one into the city archives building. If the will is there to retain it in some other form, without government funding, the templates are already there. Many buildings are being sold for a nominal fee ($1.00) so the feds can wash their hands and walk away and let private enterprise take over.


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## Furniture

I think that the reality is most small towns will lose their armouries as time goes on and maintaining a large old armouries for a platoon sized detachment is determined to be too expensive. Small town Maritimes will be vocal about it, as any change is seen as bad back home. I also think solutions from large cities such as London, Edmonton, etc are unrealistic for a town of 10,000. 

I think it's a wise move to divest bad/old/surplus infrastructure, if a building is required for the local reserves then something modern and suited to the size of the force should be built.


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## mariomike

Regarding the fates of other former armouries,

FORMER ARMOURIES  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/111568.0
3 pages.


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## Oldgateboatdriver

WeatherdoG said:
			
		

> I think it's a wise move to divest bad/old/surplus infrastructure, if a building is required for the local reserves then something modern and suited to the size of the force should be built.



But, unfortunately, Militia Regiments often have a Mafia or Regie.

In Montreal, the Base had a lot of problems (still does, I think) convincing some of the militia units to relinquish their historical, but inadequate, armouries. In fact, even when they had managed, some Regies managed to convince the political side that the "Regiment simply cannot move out of its historical home" and carry the day after great expenditure of funds and efforts.

When I was X.O. of DONNACONA, it became clear that our building was becoming (1) dated; (2) dangerous [it was an old sport club we moved into for WWII and was heavily modified for "temporary" purposes with internal wood structures]; and, (3) incapable of modification to meet modern naval reserve needs. So, with Navres and Marcom's assistance, we began the process to move to another building, purpose built. 

The Base commander and the Base Admin O came to our unit one night to "discuss" the matter, and see how serious we were. They point blank asked us: "If we start this process and get all the work done, are we going to see some Regie or other political interference stopping us and wasting the money??"

I think they were a bit surprised when we answered that: "In the Navy, we are not married to our ships. They serve us while they are the current "model" in use, but when they no longer meet requirements, we dispose of them when they are past their prime. A ship is the crew and it's history. That resides in people, historical record and memorabilia - not the actual ship itself."

We got our new unit in three years (even though, in the end, Marcom paid for it out of its budget to get it faster).

 :nod:


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## Eye In The Sky

1 NSH, as I knew it, had armouries galore.  Amherst, a new one in Springhill which is about 10 minutes from Amherst (which is where the Amherst reservists moved to for trg), New Glasgow and another new one in Pictou.  Pictou and New Glasgow are also right across the road from each other and as New Glasgow was also old and run down it was closed with the Pictou armoury housing those folks.  The HQ is in Truro.  Keeping 5 armouries open was excessive and while I feel for Amherst the dept can't keep hosing money into these places anymore than it could afford to keep CFB Summerside, Chatham, Cornwallis etc open years ago.  The reservists in Amherst have a trg location in springhill, why not move the museum and cadets there?  I have been to both and the drive is minimal.  Just across tha border in Sackville NB was once C Sqn 8 CH and it also closed down years ago.  There have to be numbers to justify expenditures.

The Hfx armouries is nostalgic but is also old and expensive.  Because it's a historical building doing anything like adding computer drops is a major PITA.  All these locations were in my AOR once upon a time when I was a Bde HQ commando and sometimes it's time to move to modern facilities and manage expenditures the best the Dept can.   Amherst is, IMO, a case to let go.  The armouries in Sydney comes to mind when I think of a successful armouries that serves the community and several reserve units from a single location.  If it's not closed now, I would close down Glace Bay and move the Jimmies from there to Sydney as well.


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## sidemount

I'm actually from Amherst (heading there on Wednesday actually), and the last time I was there, about 3 years ago, the Armoury was in pretty rough shape. The Highlanders aren't there and there are some other places to house the cadets that they have there.

They are best off to lose the place and maybe the town can put in something modern. Too many problems trying to upgrade old buildings such as that.

Just my 2 cents.


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## kratz

For all the practical reasons posted to close this building, has anyone considered the military connection to the community that will be lost?

"Mile wide-Inch deep" support can shift both ways.

 I've been to that armoury in the past few years, to instruct first aid. It's condition is the same as many armouries I've observed over the years. I agree, if the building upkeep is too costly, level it and build a smaller foothold in the community. To move "out of town", to Springhill abandons another connection to a community. As the CAF changes, we seem to be consolidating in the major urban centers, and deserting the outlying areas who support those cities.

I like how NavRes encourages it's NRDs to host parades, ceremonious, and other public events in communities outside of the city that the unit is based in.
If all units did this, we would not need so many "historical" buildings. Sadly, while we shut down one part of our community connection, on the other end all too often, the public is seeing the disconnect.


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## dapaterson

Can the CAF afford to maintain facilities in every town and hamlet across the country?  Is a declining population of under 10,000 people enough to justify that expense?


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## Furniture

kratz said:
			
		

> For all the practical reasons posted to close this building, has anyone considered the military connection to the community that will be lost?
> 
> "Mile wide-Inch deep" support can shift both ways.



In my experience many people in the local communities viewed the reserves as a bunch of drunk kids/adults playing soldier, except on Remembrance day. Canadian's don't like the reality of soldiers/sailors/airmen, they like shiny medals, parades, and nostalgic movies about the world wars.

The community footprint is likely better served by bussing people in for parades, and driving by on a semiregular basis in SMP vehicles.


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## Blackadder1916

kratz said:
			
		

> For all the practical reasons posted to close this building, has anyone considered the military connection to the community that will be lost?
> 
> "Mile wide-Inch deep" support can shift both ways.
> 
> I've been to that armoury in the past few years, to instruct first aid. It's condition is the same as many armouries I've observed over the years. I agree, if the building upkeep is too costly, level it and build a smaller foothold in the community. To move "out of town", to Springhill abandons another connection to a community. As the CAF changes, we seem to be consolidating in the major urban centers, and deserting the outlying areas who support those cities.
> 
> I like how NavRes encourages it's NRDs to host parades, ceremonious, and other public events in communities outside of the city that the unit is based in.
> If all units did this, we would not need so many "historical" buildings. Sadly, while we shut down one part of our community connection, on the other end all too often, the public is seeing the disconnect.



The "connection to the community" argument always seems to come up when discussing the viability of a particular Reserve organization or property.  I've always thought that it is usually bullshit.  What exactly does it mean?  Let's be realistic.  The purpose of having military forces is to do the things that military forces do . . . even the tangential things they do simply because they are a ready source of cheap dumb labour.  However, I'm sure that someone can come along and make their argument that maintaining a "connection to the community" is found within one of the Principles of War (maybe Maintenance of Morale . . . though I would counter with Economy of Effort).

Back in the day when the majority of these armouries and the plethora (yes, word chosen specifically for its meaning) of units that (or did) inhabit them, the military plan was to be able to raise divisions of men to defend the national territory.  Then, most of the initial training was done in the armouries by the units themselves.  That no longer happens.  In the particular case of Amherst, not only is no military training taking place, but the only DND affiliated activity is Cadets and DND is not "responsible" for providing accommodation for cadet organizations, the department has only undertaken to accommodate them in DND property when there is available excess capacity.  There is no requirement to maintain properties that do not have a military function.

Unfortunately, there seems to be this unhealthy (to departmental economy) fascination with equating the buildings used to perform functions with the esoteric aspects of military heritage which may be demonstrated in comments quoted in this RUSI piece concerning a Halifax armoury. 

https://rusi-ns.ca/rehabilitation-halifax-armouries/


> . . . . .
> 
> In recognizing the importance of work to be done to the historic3 building, Lieutenant-Colonel Marcel Boudreau, Canadian Army (retired), former commanding officer of the PLF who once was officer in charge for the Armouries, said, “This is not a building.  This is a home”.
> 
> He continued, “We trained soldiers when we sent them to war.  We welcomed them back.  We stood up for emergencies when the city needed it.  We’ve celebrated our successes, and we’ve mourned our losses in the building.  We’ve hosted rock stars, we’ve heralded royalty.”
> 
> Lieutenant-Colonel Boudreau concluded “I look forward to the building standing a lot longer, and continuing to serve the country, the city, the soldiers and the many other people who have served within it.”
> 
> Ms Howes (DND Senior Heritage Architect) concluded her presentation to the crowd, saying, “There are intangible values in landmarks and heritage buildings that you can’t readily put a price on.”
> 
> Rosanne alluded to someone who may be thinking about joining the military.  She said “If someone walks by the Armouries and sees all that history and sense of respect for all those who have come before us and knows that if they are (potentially) going to give their life for the country, he or she will be honored as well.”  That is a huge drawing card for recruiting more people.
> 
> “In terms of why we want to invest the money here, is that we do respect those who have gone before us.”



While I can agree with Ms. Howe (but don't get me started on dealing with architects when I was at NDHQ) that there are "intangible values" in preserving historic buildings, it should not be anywhere near a priority (out of 1000 things, maybe somewhere way down in the nine hundreds) for the military to spend money on.  Especially when we spend 3.61% of defence expenditures on infrastructure (for comparison the US is 1.22 and UK 1.95 as per this NATO document)


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## Eye In The Sky

I am not surprised the former PLF CO said that stuff; from my limited time around him, I would peg him as the "leading effective change" type.  

Not sure about now, but at one point anyone walking near the Hfx Armouries was likely wondering if the wooden structures built over the sidewalks around it would really stop anything that fell off the walls or roof...


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## Mudshuvel

The armoury in Moncton was turned into a Soup Kitchen a few years back which was used for Army Cadets and I believe a parade square for the local reservists. The Moncton building is more of the post-WW2 asbestos-built (Ha) style of building than both Halifax and Amherst armouries so probably it was easier to convert to something.


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## rick7475

Some armories were completely torn down. The 3 Field Engineer Squadron of Ottawa used to meet at Lees Avenue, right on the Rideau River close to the now Ottawa U campus. I have great memories of weekends building Bailey Bridges in the yard and taking assault boats up and down the river. Not a real picturesque complex, like many others such as the Cartier Drill Hall of red brick Gothic Revival style, just simple Quonset huts and garages, but still we had a drill hall and great mess dinners there. All gone and torn down in the early 1990's, just an empty field. The giant old oak is still there, where we as raw recruits would congregate, climb, and chat during bridge building breaks.

If anyone has any pictures of the armories, I sure would be grateful to see them.


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## Breacher

rick7475 said:
			
		

> Some armories were completely torn down. The 3 Field Engineer Squadron of Ottawa used to meet at Lees Avenue, right on the Rideau River close to the now Ottawa U campus. I have great memories of weekends building Bailey Bridges in the yard and taking assault boats up and down the river. Not a real picturesque complex, like many others such as the Cartier Drill Hall of red brick Gothic Revival style, just simple Quonset huts and garages, but still we had a drill hall and great mess dinners there. All gone and torn down in the early 1990's, just an empty field. The giant old oak is still there, where we as raw recruits would congregate, climb, and chat during bridge building breaks.
> 
> If anyone has any pictures of the armories, I sure would be grateful to see them.



I'm not sure when you were with 3 Fd Sqn but your post brought back some memories from my youth. I would have to look for an image of the actual armoury which I may or may not have (it has been a while  :nod. I do have this shot of building Bailey in the yard on Lees Ave. It was taken around 1972-73.


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## rick7475

Excellent photo, thank you! I was there from 83 - 84 then transferred to Peterborough for university.


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