# CF-18 fighter jet crashes in northern Quebec - Pilot safe



## onecat (16 Aug 2005)

SAGUENAY, Que. (CP) - A CF-18 fighter plane crashed Tuesday but the pilot is believed to have ejected, the all-news channel LCN reported.
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A search was underway to find the pilot from CFB Bagotville in the Saguenay-Lac-St-Jean region, about 250 kilometres north of Quebec City. The pilot was reported to be safe, LCN said.

The cause of the crash isn't yet known and weather conditions were believed to be good at the time, LCN said.

The pilot was flying about 120 kilometres north of the base.


anyone have more details?


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## Maritime_Matt (16 Aug 2005)

CF-18 fighter jet crashes in northern Quebec
CTV.ca News Staff

A CF-18 fighter plane has crashed in the Saguenay-Lac-St-Jean region of Quebec. The pilot ejected safely. 

A search was underway to find the pilot from CFB Bagotville in the region about 250 kilometres north of Quebec City. A staffer in the office of the base's commanding officer says a helicopter is en route to the scene. 

The cause of the crash isn't yet known.

The accident happened around 8:40 a.m. ET.  Weather conditions were reportedly good at the time. 

The pilot was believed to have been on a training mission, flying about 120 kilometres north of the base.

More to come...

--

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1124203747626_119612947/?hub=TopStories


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## Strike (16 Aug 2005)

Pilot found safe -- Would love to be in the mess out there tonight.   ;D

CF-18 fighter jet crashes in northern Quebec

CTV.ca News Staff

A CF-18 fighter plane has crashed in the Saguenay-Lac-St-Jean region of Quebec during a training exercise.

The pilot from CFB Bagotville ejected safely from the twin-engine CF-18 hornet. He was rescued by helicopter and is being examined in hospital.

The cause of the crash isn't yet known.

The accident happened around 8:40 a.m. ET Tuesday.  Weather conditions were reportedly good at the time.


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## WannaBeFlyer (16 Aug 2005)

Not sure if this has been posted yet...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/cpress/20050816/ca_pr_on_na/cf_18_crash;_ylt=AnC6spBmo2kf_zV4eZkUZIWFM1IB;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl



_SAGUENAY, Que. (CP) - The pilot of a CF-18 fighter jet ejected before his plane crashed and was found safely in a forested area, Col. Yvan Blondin of CFB Bagotville said Tuesday.


Blondin identified the pilot as Colin Marx of Dartmouth, N.S., and said he has been with the Armed Forces for 12 years but had arrived at the base only a month ago to train as a fighter pilot.

It was only the third of fourth flight the new pilot had taken at the base and inexperience may have contributed to the accident, said Blondin, the base commander.

Marx was with another fighter plane when the accident happened, Blondin said.

The other plane's pilot saw "the ejection and a parachute go down" and radioed the base, about 250 kilometres north of Quebec City, he added.

Blondin said the pilot, who is married but has no children, didn't have any major injuries but was taken to hospital as a precaution.

The routine training manoeuvres were being performed about 100 kilometres north of the base when the accident happened just after 8:30 a.m., Blondin said._


Related article: http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1124203747626_119612947/?hub=TopStories


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## mcnutt_p (16 Aug 2005)

It has already been posted.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33580.0/topicseen.html

McNutt


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## WannaBeFlyer (16 Aug 2005)

My apologies for double-posting. Glad to hear he got out in time!


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## Ex-Dragoon (16 Aug 2005)

I wonder if it was one of the CF188s that was recently upgraded....?


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## Inch (16 Aug 2005)

Wow, I guess it's only a matter of time before it happens to someone you know.  We were in the same flight in Moose Jaw but Colin was a few courses ahead of me.  I did language school with his wife. He's a really good guy and I'm glad to hear he made it out alright, albeit he's probably a few inches shorter than he was when he woke up.


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## Sf2 (16 Aug 2005)

CTV quoted the Base Commander as saying that the pilot may have been pushing the plane to hard.......jesus, how the hell would he know???


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## JasonH (16 Aug 2005)

Too hard?  I'd like to see a clip of how hard a CF-18 could be flown.  That'd be a hell of a video.

Good to hear the lad's safe and sound.


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## Strike (16 Aug 2005)

...and that inexperience may have been a factor.   Nice to know your superiors have your back.   Experience might not help if you've eaten a bird and have a bad profile.


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## Slim (17 Aug 2005)

Sounds like the typical bail out that senior officers perform when it may begin to look as though someone other than the pilot could/will be punished.

I wonder if the brass invented the ejection system? they seem to use it more than most here in Canada.

I am very glad that the pilot is safe and sound. I have heard (no personal experince with this) that the ejection from an aircraft has the potential to really screw the pilot up physically. Glad this didn't happen.


Slim


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## honestyrules (17 Aug 2005)

I've watched him on the news being interviewed yesterday night.
Yes he's safe and sound,walks strait, was joking and stuff, which is good.
As short final mentioned ,some Colonel said that the pilot pushed the jet the the max of it's capabilities, and that it's easy to loose control then.
Anyway,when the Air Force will get a hold of the flight recorder, we'll know the Truth (I hope).


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## Slim (17 Aug 2005)

delavan said:
			
		

> As short final mentioned ,he said that the pilot pushed the jet the the max of it's capabilities, and that it's easy to loose control then.
> Anyway,when the Air Force will get a hold of the flight recorder, we'll know the Truth (I hope).



Easy on the suppositions bro. As was mentioned above there are a number of current and former 18 drivers here who will tell you that the aircraft can hadle quite alot. I believe that one of them suggested that one possible cause would be sucking a bird into the engine...In any case I'll be quite content to let the folks who know what they're doing have the final say.

Cheers

Slim


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## honestyrules (17 Aug 2005)

Yes I agree with you SLIM, 
I just mentioned what the Colonel told the journalists. It's not my pers. opinion. I know that the "highers" are concerned about "PR" especially if the journalists are becoming too curious about the aircraft. That's why they blame the pilot from the get go! Like I said ,I hope the flight recorder data will clear the pilot.


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## Guardian (17 Aug 2005)

Inexperienced though the pilot certainly was, I don't think it sets a good example for the colonel in question to speculate about the cause of the crash before it's known.

When undergoing media relations training, I remember being strongly cautioned not to talk about things outside of your personal experience or area of expertise. Although the colonel may be an SME on flight operations,  he shouldn't be framing his comments as guesses or speculation. 

Contrast this with the Transport Safety guys' approach to possible causes of the crash in Toronto - facts only, not speculation (certainly on potential human error). The media already does enough of the latter. 

Speaking as a flightless Army guy, could some of the AF types help me understand: could a birdstrike really threaten a two-engine aircraft? Under what circumstances? I thought the point of two engines was that you could afford to lose one...


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## Dizzy (17 Aug 2005)

If its birds, some types travel in groups. In 95, an AWACS plane in Alaska struck several geese on takeoff and birds got two of the four engines. Its possible that birds may have got both engines if that is in fact what happened.


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## Sf2 (17 Aug 2005)

Not only that, but when you toss a bird into a fan spinning at 30,000 rpm, things tend to break off.

Not only will you loose the engine, but its possible that fragments from the compressor etc will rupture hydraulic lines or other systems critical to flight.  So you may have a good engine, but your aircraft may not be flyable.


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## Strike (17 Aug 2005)

Losing one engine could also be catastrophic depending on what flight configuration you are in.  If he was low and slow and ate a bird that other engine would have a very hard time spooling up to take on the extra work -- more so than if the engine was already up in that operating range, like in a climb or during a high speed turn.

I am not familiar with the cf-18, but most multi-engined aircraft have a "safe single engine speed" or some other term that means the same thing.  As also mentioned, birds travel in flocks.

I am NOT saying that this was a bird strike, I am just giving my view on why someone would eject if they did hit a bird.


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## mover1 (17 Aug 2005)

Don't blame the pilot, and don't say he was inexperienced....yet

In Cold Lake in the late 90's an Amrican in an F-16 hit a pelican on a bombing run. Took his canopy and helmet off. Cut him up good too.

F-18's have been know to go down due to generator problems. Losing power etc etc. 
But lets wait for the facts before we speculate too much.

  http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/dfs/docs/Reports/fti_e.asp


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## Inch (17 Aug 2005)

Like my AF cohorts have alluded to, there is a multitude of reasons that one may eject. Thinking back to when I was flying the Harvard, we would have ejected for things like engine failures when we're unable to make it to a runway, engine fires that don't go out, control problems (ie inadvertent departure from controlled flight below a certain altitude), smoke in the cockpit, etc. There were probably close to 10 emergencies that ended with the line, LAND AS SOON AS POSSIBLE OR EJECT.

I've never flown a Hornet, but I know from flying the Harvard that if there's any doubt about effecting a safe recovery of the aircraft and you've got a functioning ejection seat, use it. You're worth more than the aircraft.

So until they get the HUD tapes, flight data recorder or a public statement of what happened from the pilot (which I doubt will happen prior to the flight safety report), any suggestions by the media or otherwise are pure speculation and should be taken with a grain of salt.


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## Cdn Blackshirt (17 Aug 2005)

As others have already said, I'm unimpressed with whichever officers immediately said the term "pilot inexperience" to the media.

I hope Hillier dresses down whoever made such a comment....




M.


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## mover1 (17 Aug 2005)

JasonH said:
			
		

> Good to hear the lad's safe and sound.



Right you are my boy! :


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## bravo2 (19 Aug 2005)

Its amazing how fast, when a plane goes down, people point the finger at the easy target i.e. the Pilot !!!!   Inexperience, pushing the plane too hard. Can we wait for the inquiry there could be a multitude of other factors !?! Everything at this point his pure speculation....


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## McG (19 Aug 2005)

> Forest fire from CF-18 crash doused
> _CanWest News Service
> Thursday, August 18, 2005_
> 
> ...


Interesting that there would be official speculation before investigators could even go to the crash.


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## jmacleod (21 Aug 2005)

Col George Miller, as LCol leading 431 Squadron (The Snowbirds) on a Friday afternoon arrival and
smoke up over Moncton NB in 1972 had a bird strike which cut his aircraft power from 89% to
less than 40% instantly- Col Miller made an immediate emergency landing (he was directly over
the Moncton Airport at the tme) - aircraft also had a somewhat large dent in the leading edge
of the starboard mainplane. Among those who watched this from the tarmac was Col Ralph
Annis then Base Coimmander FTS Moose Jaw, and Major Phil Perry, director of maintenance for
the CF AF airshow group, commanded by Col OB Philip - Col Miller went on to command Moose
Jaw, the only CF pilot that flew in both the "Golden Hawk" and "Snowbird" teams as far as I know.
- an F-86 Golden Hawk had a major bird strike over Halifax Harbour NS, which demolished the
aircraft's canopy, temporarily blinded the pilot. S/L Ralph Annis flew along side the damaged
"Sword" and talked the pilot down to a successful landing at what was, HMCS Shearwater NS
- my opinion is that a bird strike caused the CF18A to go down - we shall see. MacLeod


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## Infanteer (21 Aug 2005)

You sure love to name drop, eh?


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## jmacleod (22 Aug 2005)

Canadian Forces did not use a Canadair Bombardier CL-415 Amphibious "Water Bomber" to
surpress the fire caused by the impact of the CF-18A Hornet. CF does not operate CL-415's
although their operation was discussed a couple of years ago. The aircraft came from the
Forest Protection Service of the Province of Quebec, which has operated the fire apprehension
and suppression aircraft for some years - they are very good at this compelling and dangerous
operational flying. MacLeod


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## Infanteer (22 Aug 2005)

...and your point is?


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## Inch (22 Aug 2005)

jmacleod said:
			
		

> Canadian Forces did not use a Canadair Bombardier CL-415 Amphibious "Water Bomber" to
> surpress the fire caused by the impact of the CF-18A Hornet. CF does not operate CL-415's
> although their operation was discussed a couple of years ago. The aircraft came from the
> Forest Protection Service of the Province of Quebec, which has operated the fire apprehension
> ...



I just reread that article and nowhere did it say a CF waterbomber, it said the CF used a waterbomber to put the fire out.

And how do you know that it was a CL-415? I didn't notice that the article specified. It could have been a CL-215, they still fly a few of those. Here's a link with some pictures of 215's taken as recently as May of this year.

http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?aircraftsearch=Canadair%20CL-215&distinct_entry=true


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## jmacleod (23 Aug 2005)

Actually, the CL415 (turbo) Water Bomber was clearly shown on the local French network TV
News - not too many (if any) CL 215's around - plan was to convert all of them in Quebec at
least to turbo - Ontario may have a CL-215 around, and possibly  France (doubtful) and Portugal
- I mention the aircraft because it was reported as a CF aircraft. We submitted a USP to DND
PW&GSW Canada "Airborne Patrols In The Atlantic Region" for use of the aircraft in the CF Air
Reserve,which received a good response from MND and senior AF personnel - bureaucrats in IC
and PW&GSW were supportive - Bombardier is their number one focus in Canada, goes back to
a decision that all OEM airframe capacity would be (and is) focused in Quebec - I know deHavilland
Toronto builds airframes (but they are owned by Bombardier). DND could not find the money, and
the Air Reserve is not where it could and should be. What do you think of the CF-18A (CF-188)
converted to replace the 431 Squadron fleet of CT-114 "Tutors" - illustrated on CASR DND 101
MacLeod


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## Inch (23 Aug 2005)

Alright, I didn't see the news article but the media is known for using stock footage when up to date footage isn't avail.

Now, when a CL-215 is upgraded with turbo props, they do not become CL-415s. They become CL-215Ts. The major difference between a CL-215T and a CL-415 is the EFIS cockpit. The CL-215Ts may have turbo props, but they're not upgraded to an EFIS cockpit.


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## jmacleod (24 Aug 2005)

Inch - you are right, the CL215 T is the designation by Canadair/Bombardier for the upgraded turbo
215, but it was for the most part an experimental aircraft. What FE's in Montreal found was that
the PWC turboprops created enormous torque loads causing very significant yaw on takeoff and
in the air, especially after a water dump, so a major mod required the redesign of the vertical
stabliizer - so the decision was made, why not a new model with all proposed upgrades right
on the production line; that aircraft is the CL415. For some interesting perspectives about a future
CF role for the CL415, go to CASR DND 101, where Editor Stephen Priestly is seeking opinions on
a number of military topics ranging from vehicles to aircraft. Talked with Bombardier two weeks ago
about their new S&R Model CL415, recently sold in Europe, and potential CF interest. What is 
your opinion of a CF18A (CF188) modified as a replacement for the CT114 "Tutor" ? MacLeod


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## Strike (24 Aug 2005)

I can't see the CF ever getting into the water bomber business -- the private sector would go ape.  That is one reason why you don't see our helos flying around with bambi buckets fighting forest fires.  The private sector would have to be in a very bad situation before we would be allowed to participate.  So your point is moot.


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## Sf2 (24 Aug 2005)

1)  CF will never get into the water bombing business - there's no reason to

2) 





> my opinion is that a bird strike caused the CF18A to go down


  
How the hell can you say that?  You know nothing about the mission profile, reported bird activity, even the nature of the crash.  Saying that is just as bad as what the base commander said about pushing the plane too hard.  Just because a few aircraft were destroyed by bird strikes in the past?  What about compressor stalls?  What about dual engine stalls?  What about fuel line ruptures?  What about flight control system malfuction?  Why don't you google those terms?

3)  Snowbirds will never go the the F18.  First, the world loves them because they're gracefull,precise,  pleasing to the eye, and QUIET.  The BA's show is loud, obnoxious, although still very impressive.  The CF would not be able to fund the enormous operating cost of a Hornet x 11 for a continental airshow tour.  What about the show techs?  You're going to take all the B models so they can ride along?  Or stuff them in an 8 pax van with a large double double?


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## jmacleod (24 Aug 2005)

What private sector companies are those in Canada - two that I can think of. Forest fire apprehension
and suppression are undertaken by Provincial government agencies for the most part, in NB, Quebec
Newfoundland, Ontario and BC. If CF could provide additional fire suppression support in the forest
fire season, no one will complain, and it is good additional skill development for CF Reserve personnel
-our concept is entirely focused on the CF Air Reserve Component. The fact is the concept remains
valid, and got considerable support - dumping water from a bucket slung under a helicopter just
does not do the trick. NB Forest Protection has a fleet of Air Tractor 802's (Air Tractor, Olney Texas
Leland Snow), but often are compelled to bring in Quebec or Newfoundland water bombers - the
idea is to surpress the fire as quickly as possible. The largest single contributor to Canada's GNP is
the forest sector - not much profit in a burned out forest. MacLeod


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## Sf2 (24 Aug 2005)

it doesn't matter if its private sector or not - the capability exists PERIOD.  There's no need to re-direct resources to something that can easily be done by other agencies.  As far as reserve elements are concerned, they are already fully immersed in cockpits that we already have, and we're still short pilots.  There's no feasiblity in introducing a new aircraft, creating new sqns, both operational and training.  Train techs, create training syllabus and standards, take pilots away from helo/fighter/multi sqns when there's already a nice fleet/staff up in North Bay who's up for the challenge.


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## jmacleod (24 Aug 2005)

Those are good points on the CF18A.B as a replacement for the CT-114's (which will be replaced)
-our choice is the BAE Hawk (Hawks For The Snowbirds) - which makes sense, but appears not
to be a priority with DND CF at the moment. As far as the CF18 crash is concerned, my opinion
is that it was probably a bird strike, but certainly compressor stall, or any other major malfunction
-I agree that the Squadron Commander should not have speculated in a Public Forum, but the
main thing is Captain Marks (media reported "Marx") survived - as far as the use of the CL-415 by
DND is concerned, no one can say with certainty what future aircraft will be purchased for CF
inventories, but one thing we do know; there is a lot of pressure on IC and PW&GS Canada to
buy Canadian fixed wing aircraft wherever possible (and that ain't because of what you and I
think, thats because of politics). So when you say "never" - well never is a long time. When they
bought the F-5 (CF-5) some years ago, the CF AF wanted the McAir F-4. But they bought the
F-5 anyway. MacLeod


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## Sf2 (24 Aug 2005)

do you know what a compressor stall is??


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## jmacleod (24 Aug 2005)

Why don't you define what a compressor stall is, and what effect it has on an aircraft in a 
pitch-up position (or pitch-down) - MacLeod


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## Sf2 (24 Aug 2005)

I asked you first 

and since I'm a helicopter pilot, I'll explain it in the context of the affect of cold air temperatures on the orafice in the P3 stage during rapid throttle applications in both manual and automatic fuel control modes......after you answer my question.

*EDIT*  Google cut and paste not allowed


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## Strike (24 Aug 2005)

mcleod,

Your remark about helos being useless in firefighting just goes to show your inexperience in the field.   A water bomber would be hard pressed to douse   a firs that is sitting on the side of a steep mountain whereas a helicopter (which is run by a private company most of the time in both BC and Alberta) is the perfect sollution.

As for the compression stall -- at 1500 feet with two engines, a single engine compressor stall isn't as tragic an event as you make it out to be.



> Why don't you define what a compressor stall is, and what effect it has on an aircraft in a
> pitch-up position (or pitch-down) - MacLeod



Had it happen at that altitude on a single engine jet.


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## jmacleod (24 Aug 2005)

You asked first - for those that might be reading this stuff, let me start out with an example of
compressor stall the movie "Top Gun" illustrated the effect of compressor stall. Cruise in 
his F-14 flew into the wake of another F-14 and the engines on his aircraft stalled and stopped
-in the real world there are a number of factors in combination to cause excessively high 
internal ambient temperatures, caused by a reduction of airflow into the compressor. This can
cause, engine surge and or compresser stall, (the compressor stops) when the airflow over the
compressor blades exceeds the aircraft's angle of attack(pitchup, pitch down) - compressor
stall has been around since Whittle invented the jet (turbine) engine. The RAT on the CF-104
was designed to restart a stalled engine, by drastically changing the angle of attack - using
the unit, located on the starboard side of the fuselage to pump air into the compressor. The crash
of a 747 cargo aircraft at the Halifax International Airport might have been caused by compressor
stall on takeoff - MacLeod


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## jmacleod (24 Aug 2005)

Use of helicopters in forest fire fighting will continue of course - there is a company in Pennsylvania
converting USN surplus "Sea Kings" for forest fire supression right now, but the bucket brigade
really can't do the job of say the Air Tractor 802, a bug sprayer that designer Leland Snow has
upgraded to surpress fires - Air Tractor Olny Texas, on the net. I think Okanagan Helicopters
are flying Air Tractor 802's in BC now on the fire projects, and they are also used in France. NS
Forest Protection uses helicopters for bucket dumping, and do a good job but are limited -
they got a lot of credit several years ago for saving most of Clayton Park (housing and condo's
 but they got lucky - the wind shifted. MacLeod


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## Strike (24 Aug 2005)

> let me start out with an example of
> compressor stall the movie "Top Gun" illustrated the effect of compressor stall.



If that was a good example of what a compressor stall does I would be dead a few times over already, along with most of the Snowbirds, manu students that went through Moose Jaw on the Toot and are now flyinf the Hawk, and any fighter guy that has gone 1 v 1.  Compressor stalls going through the jet wash of another aircraft are very rare -- as are the "flat spin" that your example of choice produced.  Bad example.


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## jmacleod (24 Aug 2005)

Strike: I replied to your post and your points are well received, however my post appears to have
vanished - but the really important aspect of the loss of the aircraft is that Captain Marks survived
 if you are aware, there are operational aspects of the CF-18 (CF-188) which remain classified and
cannot be discussed on this forum, however the aircraft remains high in my estimation. Appreciate
you remarks. MacLeod


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## Sf2 (24 Aug 2005)

Mcleod

1)  Know your audience - you're speaking to pilots who fly turbine engined aircraft

2)  





> in the real world there are a number of factors in combination to cause excessively high
> internal ambient temperatures


  actually, high internal temperatures is a symptom of a compressor stall, not a cause.

3)  





> This can
> cause, engine surge and or compresser stall, (the compressor stops)


  The compressor doesn't stop, it slows down a bit, and looses efficiency.

4)  





> when the airflow over the
> compressor blades exceeds the aircraft's angle of attack


  I'm not sure what you're really saying here.   Airflow cannot exceed the angle of attack of an aircraft.  Airflow determines the angle of attack, specifically defined as the angle between the relative airflow and the chord line of the airfoil (no, i didn't pull that off google).  It is possible for an aircraft to achieve an angle of attack that causes turbulent airflow to enter the intake.

5)  





> down) - compressor
> stall has been around since Whittle invented the jet (turbine) engine. The RAT on the CF-104
> was designed to restart a stalled engine, by drastically changing the angle of attack


  The RAT did nothing to change AOA.  It was a small turbine that powered essential systems for engine restart. From the Lockheed site - There was a ram-air turbine (RAT) in a pop-out door on the lower right side of the fuselage, just behind the nose gear, to provide electrical and hydraulic power in case of systems failure. 


6)  





> The crash
> of a 747 cargo aircraft at the Halifax International Airport might have been caused by compressor
> stall on takeoff - MacLeod


From the Aviation Safety Network - 17 DEC 2004 Wrong throttle setting cited in probe of 747 crash at Halifax 
The investigation into the accident of an MK Airlines Boeing 747 cargo plane at Halifax, Canada in October is focusing an improper throttle setting made by a member of the crew


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## Inch (24 Aug 2005)

jmacleod said:
			
		

> You asked first - for those that might be reading this stuff, let me start out with an example of
> compressor stall the movie "Top Gun" illustrated the effect of compressor stall. Cruise in
> his F-14 flew into the wake of another F-14 and the engines on his aircraft stalled and stopped
> -in the real world there are a number of factors in combination to cause excessively high
> ...



WTF, over.

MacLeod, I know short final asked you to explain a compressor stall, but I'm unsatisfied with your response so standby for a little bit of an education with respect to compressor stalls.   

A compressor stall doesn't mean the compressor stops, it means that there's been a disruption of the airflow into the compressor, things like salt ingestion or taking a bird in the intake could cause an engine to compressor stall. Symptoms of a compressor stall can include, popping (like a machine gun), fluctuating Ng (or N1 depending on which aircraft you fly), and increasing T5 (or TOT/ITT/etc) due to the reduced airflow into the engine for cooling. This is all accompanied by a loss of thrust which in certain regimes of flight can be catastrophic. Now, your reaction in response to a compressor stall can vary from aircraft to aircraft, but in my experience, reducing the load on the engine by pulling back the throttle or lowering the collective seems to be the general response.

As for an engine compressor stalling due to high AOA, I've never once heard of that happening, the wing should stall long before the compressor and no, the wing does not stop moving when it stalls.


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## jmacleod (24 Aug 2005)

The F-104 had a problem with high angle of attack causing compressor stall, and compressor
stall remains a problem for high speed turbine engines as you all know - a bird strike certainly
can cause a major problem for a funtioning turbine engine. In any event, AIB will come up
with a conclusion about the Bagotville aircraft shortly I would think. There is a lot more to
the 747 freighter crash than a cursory initial observation by TC - but it is hard to believe that
a fully loaded freighter flown by a very experienced Captain would have an improper throttle
setting - freighters that go into Halifax rarely go empty, pick up usually what is value added 
seafood (lobster,scallops) which have a shelf life,quickly,and are on their way. Some of the
cargo operators here and in Halifax think that the load (tractors among other items) may have
shifted, others think the fish product may have been improperly weighed, plus loss of power
for whatever reason. That TC Report should be published soon. MacLeod


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## aesop081 (24 Aug 2005)

jmacleod,

I will let my pilot companions take care of the technical details here but even if the   crew was experienced ( halifax crash) it does not mean that they are imune to simple errors.     There was a crash in florida where the aircraft's crew flew into the ground when none of the cockpit crew were looking outside.   They were fixated on a light in the dashboard !!

For the technical stuf on turbines, i would reconsider your position.   As a backender, it only took a cursory look at the AOIs and the emergency procedures manual to figure out you are to lunch.

Putting a bit of info in your profile wouldnt hurt either......


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## Zoomie (24 Aug 2005)

JMacleod - how about filling in your profile a little more - it might make your comments easier to swallow...

You seem to spout alot of CASR DND-101 junk - are you affiliated with that website?

The Halifax 747 crew obviously wasn't experienced enough - maybe that South African flight training didn't cover the lessons on Weight and Balance - initial findings are that the big bird ran out of runway before achieving Vr.

I think enough has been said about compressor stalls...  It's good to see that my 32A compadres are on top of the ball when it comes to this topic - the CC-115 compressor is pretty robust and we rarely see the conditions that may preclude a stall.  We're more concerned about hitting the water or mountains than about our compressor hiccupping.


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## jmacleod (24 Aug 2005)

You are kidding of course. What crash in Florida are you referring to? An entire aircrew fixated
on a light on the "dashboard" - was it a warning light for instance? what was the name of the
operator? what type of aircraft, turbine, turboprop, reciprocating propeller equipped engines
-I  answered a question about compressor stall off the top of my head, but I suspect that the
rebuttal came out of a textbook - easy to be an expert when you check in the book first.The
point is, as of now an unknown factor, or factors caused a CF aircraft to go down, so we are
all speculating. Whatever the cause, hopefully it will be defined and the problem resolved.
End of story as far as I am concerned. MacLeod


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## Sf2 (24 Aug 2005)

agreed with Zoomie - we could go on all day comparing Subject Matter Experts opinions on compressor stalls, and those who think they may have seen it in a movie once.....

Bottom line is that at any level, be it base commander or internet junkie, it's inappropriate to assume or conclude ANYTHING when it comes to this incident.   THe best thing that came out of this is a pilot who was there, got out, and will be able to describe first hand what happend.

And to say my rebuttal was out of a text book?   Sorry buddy, but I make the big bucks because I'm supposed to know this stuff off the top of my head.   So when I DO hear popping, rising ITT, and fluctuating N1, its always COLLECTIVE/AIRSPEED.....REDUCE, HEATER SWITCH.....REPOSITION.   If condition persists AFFECTED ENGINE......IDLE, Land as soon as practical.

as for the "dashboard light", I believe it was a faulty gear indication light, where all crew were fixated and troubleshooting, and allowed the aircraft to impact the ground.


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## Sf2 (24 Aug 2005)

here you go mcleod - if you're interested, the cockpit voice transcript of this "Dashboard" light problem  http://www.airdisaster.com/cvr/cvr_ea401.shtml


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## mdh (24 Aug 2005)

From wikepedia....



> Eastern Airlines Flight 401 crashed into the Florida Everglades on the night of December 29, 1972, causing 101 fatalities. It was the first crash of a wide-body aircraft.
> 
> The plane, registered N310EA, was a four-month-old Lockheed L-1011 and was carrying 163 passengers and 13 crewmembers. Flight 401 left New York's JFK on Friday, December 29th, 1972 at 9:20 pm, en route to Miami International Airport. At the controls were Captain Robert Loft, 55, a verteran Eastern Airlines pilot ranked 50th in senority at Eastern, and first officer Bert Stockstill. The flight engineer was Don Repo.
> 
> At 11:32 PM, Eastern Airlines flight 401 began its approach into Miami International Airport. When co-pilot Stockstill had looked at the landing gear indicator, the green light that identifies that the nose gear is properly locked in the 'down' position did not illuminate. This failure has two possible explanations: either the gear was not down, or the light was not working. Either way, this is considered to be a small issue for pilots, as the gear can be lowered manually. The pilots recycled the landing gear and still didn't get the confirmation light.



The crew became fixated on the light allowing the plane to lose altitude until the accident - also was made into a movie "Ghost of Flight 401" with Ernest Borgnine IIRC.

cheers, mdh


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## aesop081 (24 Aug 2005)

short final said:
			
		

> as for the "dashboard light", I believe it was a faulty gear indication light, where all crew were fixated and troubleshooting, and allowed the aircraft to impact the ground.



Thats the one ( i was lookign for a better word than dashboard but for some reason i had a mental blockage...good thing i wasnt flying today !), must have been during a very dry part of HPMA.   My point was simply that even experienced aircrew fall victim to simple errors.   Just ask my tac hel freinds here if they like to have both the pilot and the NFP having their heds in at the same time !!   I know that when i did OJT at 403 sqn they sure didnt do that !!

And i beive that it was YOU, jmacleaod, who was doing the speculating when you said that in your opinion it was a bird that brought the 18 down.   Members of this board who fly for a living have presented other pssibilities because you made a quick assumption based on nothing of value.   You then proceded to argue about compressor stalls with people who's job it is to know.....WTF ? Whats next, you are going to argue with me about identifying and classifying emiters with ESM ? Maybe you would like to argue about cabin fire of unknown origin procedures with me ? 

But then again we don't realy know who were are talking to do we..........blank profile !!



			
				mdh said:
			
		

> From wikepedia....
> 
> The crew became fixated on the light allowing the plane to lose altitude until the accident - also was made into a move "Ghost of Flight 401" with Ernest Borgnine IIRC.
> 
> cheers, mdh



Yup....when we talk about it, the tower controler said "Eastern 401, how is everything going" ( or something to that effect).   Maybe if something more assertive had been said ( eastern 401 check altitude or eastern 401 climb imediately) this could have been prevented....my $0.02.


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## Sf2 (24 Aug 2005)

Snowbird just crashed, suggest we give this up and wait for the final investigation, and pray for the Snowbird families.


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## Strike (24 Aug 2005)

Heard the snowbird pilot was sent to hospital with minor injuries, so I figured I'd add a little to this thread...



> it is hard to believe that
> a fully loaded freighter flown by a very experienced Captain would have an improper throttle
> setting



It's also hard to believe that an Air France jet would continue to land 4000 feet down a runway when he is too fast, and onto a wet runway, but he did, instead of electing to go around.

As pilots, we may think we are perfect (some of us may actually be   ), but we are not, and are still prone to mistakes.


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## Zoomie (24 Aug 2005)

jmacleod said:
			
		

> ...I  answered a question about compressor stall off the top of my head, but I suspect that the
> rebuttal came out of a textbook - easy to be an expert when you check in the book first...



Sorry partner - you're playing with the big boys now - it's easy to be an armchair pilot, a lot tougher to be a professional one...


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## Cloud Cover (24 Aug 2005)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> I think enough has been said about compressor stalls...   It's good to see that my 32A compadres are on top of the ball when it comes to this topic - the CC-115 compressor is pretty robust and we rarely see the conditions that may preclude a stall.   We're more concerned about hitting the water or mountains than about our compressor hiccupping.



LOL, be sure to keep your eyes off the dash board lights. [see aesops post].


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## aesop081 (24 Aug 2005)

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> LOL, be sure to keep your eyes off the dash board lights. [see aesops post].



FFS...will "instrument panel" do ?


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## Cloud Cover (24 Aug 2005)

Fine with me. [shrugs- IP, dashboard, christmas tree, etc. etc.]


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## aesop081 (24 Aug 2005)

link with a little bit of info on the 747 crash in Kuala lumpur i refered to earlier.

http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/view_details.cgi?date=02191989&reg=N807FT&airline=Flying+Tigers

Disussed it during HPMA, A/C had started into an ILS aproach to rwy 33 but when he was not Getiing the ILS on his instruments for the intended runway he asked if the ILS was down. ATC informed him this was the case.   ATC offered an ILS aproach to another runway but the A/C decided to carry out and NDB aproach   to the original runway even though he did not have the required publication.   Aircraft impacted ground ( side of a mountain) short of the runway.


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## ChrisC (24 Aug 2005)

I think you might want to check your data.  A pelican?  In Cold Lake?  Don't think so, since they are ocean coastal birds, mainly on the pacific.  Don't want to be picky, but thanking my stars for that zoology course all those years ago.


			
				mover1 said:
			
		

> Don't blame the pilot, and don't say he was inexperienced....yet
> 
> In Cold Lake in the late 90's an Amrican in an F-16 hit a pelican on a bombing run. Took his canopy and helmet off. Cut him up good too.
> 
> ...


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## Cloud Cover (24 Aug 2005)

Specially trained suicide snow pelican.


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## ChrisC (24 Aug 2005)

Pelicans in Cold Lake...what's next, penguins in Mexico?


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## Cloud Cover (24 Aug 2005)

ChrisC said:
			
		

> Pelicans in Cold Lake...what's next, penguins in Mexico?



When referring to more than one penguin, please use the phrase "penguin associates."


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## Bruce Monkhouse (24 Aug 2005)

He,he,he,
Whiskey,
I owe you a beer, my friend.....


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## Strike (25 Aug 2005)

> Pelicans in Cold Lake



I'm sure pelicans will go to anywhere there is water.  Case in point: low level nav in Moose Jaw and my instructor and I actually ducked when a PELICAN whizzed by the canopy.


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## Infanteer (25 Aug 2005)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> Sorry partner - you're playing with the big boys now - it's easy to be an armchair pilot, a lot tougher to be a professional one...



Hey, all you need is a Top Gun reference and you're in.

Cheers,

Maverick


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## Strike (25 Aug 2005)

He tried that already and got "shot down."   ;D


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## Inch (25 Aug 2005)

You don't have time to think up there, if you think, you're dead!


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## aesop081 (25 Aug 2005)

Inch...you can be my wingman anytime........


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## Strike (25 Aug 2005)

You're dangerous!


Ahhh, memories of HPMA...


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## Sf2 (25 Aug 2005)

bullsh*t, you can be mine.......DO DO DO       DO-DO-DO-DO-DO      DO      DO-DO-DO........


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## aesop081 (25 Aug 2005)

Strike said:
			
		

> You're dangerous!
> 
> 
> Ahhh, memories of HPMA...




HAHAHA...

"There's a bogey at 9 o'clock"

"What are you talking about that's the 630 to boston"

"You guys are dangerous"


anyways....waaaaaay off topic  ;D


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## Armymedic (25 Aug 2005)

FOR GOD"S SAKE, STOP ALREADY!!!!!!!   :crybaby:


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## Sf2 (25 Aug 2005)

That was a great SNL skit.......


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## Infanteer (26 Aug 2005)

So, did anyone catch sight of that MiG 28?


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## mover1 (26 Aug 2005)

ChrisC said:
			
		

> Pelicans in Cold Lake...what's next, penguins in Mexico?



OK a really big F$#%@# bird with long legs and likes to eat fish. RE PELICAN!!!!!

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_news_article771.html

Here's the link, Heres the story. 

Thursday, September 28, 2000 - Investigators have determined a bird strike caused the crash of an Air Force F-16CG fighter jet June 21 on the Cold Lake Air Weapons Range in Alberta, Canada. 

The pilot of the aircraft, Capt. Richard Pietrykowski, from the 388th Fighter Wing, Hill Air Force Base Utah, ejected safely and sustained only minor injuries. The F-16 impacted the ground in a lightly forested muskeg area of the weapons range and was completely destroyed. 

According to the investigation report released today by Air Combat Command, the crash occurred when a mature American White Pelican struck the canopy of the F-16. The pelican penetrated the windscreen, causing structural failure of the canopy and heads-up display. Debris from the canopy, the HUD and the pelican struck the pilot, causing confusion, disorientation and vision loss. 

Pietrykowski ejected from the aircraft and was picked up by Canadian search and rescue forces. At the time of the accident, Pietrykowski and his unit were taking part in the Maple Flag joint training exercise.


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## jmacleod (26 Aug 2005)

Pelicans that fly into Alberta are known as "The Brief Pelicans" - my initial opinion  on the
 CF-18 crash that it was caused by a bird strike, and it is an opinion, but bird strikes are and
remain a major hazard for commercial and military aircrews and passengers. Go to the site, 
"Bird Strike Committee USA" and the joint USA-Canadian International Bird Strike Committee
which had a meeting in Vancouver on the 15-18 August 2005. Lot of information on bird strikes
-which if one is focused on a feasibility study or business plan related to international airports
including Canada of course, assessment of bird activity and control, plus elimination options are
mandatory in the work plan. Unfortunately birds do not follow a mission profile, they appear to
press on regardless. MacLeod


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## Calculator Jockey (26 Aug 2005)

As for the comments ref pelicans in Cold Lake, there is a flock that is here every year. Legend has it that they somehow got on the wrong flight path ended up here and decided to stay. Just type in pelicans in Cold Lake, and you will get the hits.

I saw them for the first time when I was out boating on the lake this summer and saw a flock of them in formation flying towards us and over our boat. 

We also have quite a few bald eagles that make Cold Lake home as well.


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## aesop081 (26 Aug 2005)

jmacleod said:
			
		

> Pelicans that fly into Alberta are known as "The Brief Pelicans" - my initial opinion   on the
> CF-18 crash that it was caused by a bird strike, and it is an opinion, but bird strikes are and
> remain a major hazard for commercial and military aircrews and passengers. Go to the site,
> "Bird Strike Committee USA" and the joint USA-Canadian International Bird Strike Committee
> ...



.....and this has to do with the BS you were spouting off earlier how ?


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## mover1 (26 Aug 2005)

Julia Roberts starred in the pelican breif with Sam Shepard.....
Who was in an Black Hawk Down with Ewan Mcgregor....
who had a role in The Big Fish with Steve Buscemi
who was in Mr Deeds with Adam Sandler
Who was on SNL a show that Ben Stiller played Tom Cruise in celebrity jeapordy.
Tom Cruise is actually the star of the greatest movie ever about aviation TOP GUN also with Meg Ryanwho is in the upcoming movie , In the cut with Kevin Bacon.....

Kevin Bacon and Tom Cruise were both in peril, one from a compressor stall and the other had a stalled compressor or oxygen something or other which blew up Apollo 13.
 But their gimbles were fine and the AOA and ejection sequence was followed. Goose died Tom hanks got anothe Oscar and again the greatest actor that ever lived went unoticed...

ALL HAIL BILL PAXTON!!!

Which has nothing to do with anything BUT....


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## Cloud Cover (26 Aug 2005)

"We also have quite a few bald eagles that make Cold Lake home as well."


			
				mover1 said:
			
		

> Which has nothing to do with anything BUT....


So ... are there or aren't there any penguins in Mexico ...


			
				mover1 said:
			
		

> Which has nothing to do with anything BUT....


Bill Paxton is a pretty cool guy. Maybe he wears a tux ...


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## Kirkhill (27 Aug 2005)

Somebody buy ChrisC a Greyhound ticket out of whichever urban centre he currently resides and send him out to Saskatoon.    Large numbers of Brown Pelicans at weir downstream of Bessborough.  More at Blackstrap. More out by Nipawin way sharing the water with Cormorants.  They make it up here from Florida.

ChrisC.

Hope you did better on your other courses than you must have done on zoology.

Cheers and have a great life.


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## Spr.Earl (27 Aug 2005)

For those who question the Pelicans at Cold Lake,yes they are there and no it's not a fluke of nature.
Cold Lake is the Northern edge of there northern range in Summer for them,come winter they flock off south.
I go into the Ranges I have seen them still on the Lake in late Sept. early Oct. depending on the wheather.
Yes it blew me away when I learned that we had Pelicans in Canada.


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## Astrodog (27 Aug 2005)

mover1 said:
			
		

> Julia Roberts starred in the pelican breif with Sam Shepard.....
> Who was in an Black Hawk Down with Ewan Mcgregor....
> who had a role in The Big Fish with Steve Buscemi
> who was in Mr Deeds with Adam Sandler
> ...




hahaha priceless...


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## Sf2 (28 Aug 2005)

Julia Roberts to Kevin Bacon?  Good god, easiest one on earth.....FLATLINERS baby!!


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## mover1 (29 Aug 2005)

But I had to tie in Pelicans, Top Gun, Compressor Stalls, and slew of others to make it relevant to the post.


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## mdh (29 Aug 2005)

Heh heh - you guys talk the talk. Well let me tell ya - I've flown the Top Gun mission on my F14 sim - I've got the whole kit - MS sidewinder stick (with realistic backpressure), rudder peddles, throttle plus trim and flap settings - it's practically the real thing - no expense spared. 

So here's how it really happens. Listen and Learn. Programmed the sim to fly the same patrol as Maverick over the Gulf of Sidre (don't forget Goose is dead at that point in the movie - and besides I didn't have enough cash to set up a WSO station behind the LZ Boy.) 

The Int boys tell us (via the sim menu outlining the top secret mission - cool graphics) that the Libyans are flying Mig 27s and Col. Gaddafi ain't gonna take this provocation lying down in the Bedouin tent - so this is no picnic, boys. I'm on edge - but I like it that way. (Sure I don't mind saying I'm little scared too - anyone who doesn't is a liar.) But hey - that's what I get paid for. 

Anyways, I sit at my desk, put aside the cheesy bag, and put the pedal the metal moving the F14 on fast on a patrol line doing CAP at 20 angels just off the Libyan coast. Suddenly I hear a buzz - shyte, bandit! my radar tells me there's a Mig comin' out of the sun - probably at 25 angels. He's got the height advantage! Now I am staying very cool here - pretending I haven't seen him. Int tells us the Libyan Migs are mostly flown by Russian mercs - so they like to get up and personal with the cannon instead of using a missile - some weird russkie code of honour or something.

So I wait, and wait, and wait - seems like an eternity but it's just a few seconds in reality - and then almost on cue the bandit closes in until he's about 100 yards off my tail. Sure as shyte - Mig 27! Now I know what my F14 is capable of - and just as I see him there I says to myself - got ya where I want ya! 

I yank the throttle back, drop the flaps and gear and my cocky Mig buddy shoots way ahead of me. Surprise Boris! - I says to myself - coolly painting the Mig by pressing F6 on the key board - getting the lock on him - and then firing off a quick sidewinder courtesy of my right wing. Ain't no scruples about using missiles on my side of the Berlin Wall, says I.

Kaboom! The Mig goes up in a flash - "how about a sidewinder with your borscht comrade" I says. Course I feel a bit guilty - jousting knights of the air and all that - so I circle around looking for a chute -- but nothing. "Nasdrovaya, you were a worthy opponent... you win some - you loose some" I says, and salute the twirling wreckage as it falls into sea with a final, funereal hiss. Just wasn't his day. Could easily have been me.

Anyways nuf' said - I'm not the flying padre and business is business - so it's throttle up along with the gear and flaps and back to the virtual carrier landing (press F8 for accelerated waypoints) - which I kinda screw up because the little flag officer pop up menu tells me I'm too high and I need to go around - but what do those deck-pounding wogs know about carrier flying? 

So I slam her on the deck with a quick flourish, drop the ole' tail hook to catch the wire, jamming the throttle into the dashboard, so if I miss I can just go around. I shut the engine down. Time for a gimlet in the wardroom (my rumpus room actually - built the bar myself).

So don't tell me that Top Gun is not realistic - been there - done that.

Cheers, mdh


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## Cloud Cover (29 Aug 2005)

mdh said:
			
		

> So I slam her on the deck with a quick flourish, drop the ole' tail hook to catch the wire, jamming the throttle into the dashboard, so if I miss I can just go around. I shut the engine down. Time for a gimlet in the wardroom (my rumpus room actually â â€œ built the bar myself).
> 
> So don't tell me that Top Gun is not realistic â â€œ been there â â€œ done that.
> 
> Cheers, mdh



Best. Post. Ever.


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## Sf2 (29 Aug 2005)

you drop the hook AFTER you hit the deck?

Gutsiest move I ever saw...........


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## jmacleod (31 Aug 2005)

The flight sequence in the film "Top Gun" which caused the F14 flown by Maverick (Cruise) to
go down was developed by the late Art Scholl, who also flew the flat spin sequence in his
converted deHavilland Canada Chipmunk. Art Sholl was not only one of the best aerobatic pilots
in the circuit, but a Ph.D. in aeronautical engineering specializing in propulsion systems and University
teaching. Art was killed during filming, when his Chipmunk disintegrated. The film pre 1986 was 
heavily supported by the US DOD and Department of the Navy, which provided maximum support
- it was also supported by the big airframe and engine OEMs of the period; Grumman, McDonnell
Douglas, General Dynamics and Northrop (particularly Northrop, who wanted much new exposure
for their F-5's which were leading into the F-20 Tigershark). The film is considered the greatest
resource for US Navy and USMC recruitment ever. It provided much increase in Air Show attendance
in Canada and the US for several years, where the F-14 and F-5's were in great demand. The film
has earned in excess of$400million US and continues to earn. In 2004, Cruise produced a 6-part
documentry "Making of Top Gun" . If you have opinions about the film why not contact former
US naval aviators like Senator John McCain, Republican Arizona - or if you have questions, the real
"Viper" CO Fighter Weapons School, Mirimar CA, (now in Nevada) can be contacted on the
Red Star USA Site, an organization which does interesting things. I worked as an associate
consultant on the Northrop F-18 L and 18 A programs as well as the F-20 Program.I am a founding
member of the Inrternational Council of Air Shows, and the Canadian Warplane Hertiage Foundation
our companies deal in the international technology and aerospace sectors. One partner is an AME M
fifty years experience former Director Airworthiness TC, another is an aeronautical engineer who
specializes in structures (working on a Boeing /Sikorsky Project now). We have access to associates
who are usually highly skilled in specific technology disciplines We needed avionic and electronic 
expertise on the EH101 Merlin project. Most of us a well over 70, and have been around "aeroplanes"
since we were about 18. Don't know much or care about computer games, we prefer real aircraft.
MacLeod


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## mover1 (31 Aug 2005)

This one time on JAG. HE not only investiated a murder, but he also did his closing arguments and cleared the CAG of wrongdoing while FLYING,,,,did you hear that FLYING an F-14 Tomcat. He is so cool that JAG. One par Navy man One part Lawyer all HERO. Just like the history chanel said.


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## jmacleod (31 Aug 2005)

You are right. I watch JAG from time to time - like the "Flight of the Intruder" a spin off from
the success of Top Gun - but JAG depends on the talents of screen writers who know little
or nothing about Naval Aviation or the real JAG - which I suspect is dull, dull, dull. The producers
of JAG however, according to CNN are former USMC, and their high regard for the Corps and
US naval air is obvious. MacLeod


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## Sf2 (31 Aug 2005)

the marine chick is hot.....


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## jmacleod (1 Sep 2005)

Yeah, isn't that something - British father, Iranian mother, most beautiful Marine ever.MacLeod


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## sjm (1 Sep 2005)

Another one that has wandered so far off the rails...there's gotta be an ex-CN executive somewhere rolling over in his grave.

Focus people, shiny toys and 30 second commercials


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## mover1 (1 Sep 2005)

Actually its in a holding pattern till some more info on the subject comes out.


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## Ex-Dragoon (1 Sep 2005)

Back on topic please


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