# C7 rifles within cadets



## QY RANG 2

There has been alot of talk with cadets firing the c7 service rifle. And to my knowledge cadets are only allowed to fire 15 rounds of 5.56 a year. would you guys rather stick with just the Daisy. Also when you are given ammunition on the range they are handed to you in magazines of 5 rounds, why is this?

Anyway I was wondering what you guys think.


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## my72jeep

CATO's say 25 rds at the unit and if your only getting it in 5 rds mags I cant say but it may be that you shoot in 5 rds groups?
most times its up to the RSO as to how many rds in the mag and what type of shooting is to be done.


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## aesop081

I'm not sure why 5 rounds is the limit but the number brings me to one conclusion :  As a civilian organization (supported by DND) you are probably subject to civilian gun rules which dictate that magazines will have a maximum capacity of 5 rounds.

Of course i am speculating but would seem to make sense.

If someone has the "book " answer i would love to hear it..............


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## Corporal McDill.

They're real C7s?
Wow.  I wish I was in Army cadets, instead of Air.
I know a Master Warrant in Army cadets, he told me they were just .177 cal rifles made to look like C7s.  Do they have those also?


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## KevinB

aesop081 said:
			
		

> I'm not sure why 5 rounds is the limit but the number brings me to one conclusion :   As a civilian organization (supported by DND) you are probably subject to civilian gun rules which dictate that magazines will have a maximum capacity of 5 rounds.



Yeah the automatic weapon ( C7 ) they gave you is irrelevant right?  :  and the mag is still 30rds... 

 5 rds loaded in the mags are simply so they shoot a five rounds group - not 4 or 6...


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## Alex252

This has been discussed a lot : Burrows where are you at?


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## catalyst

I would say keep it open. Nobody's really whining about how they can't shoot 24/7 with it. I'm interested to know a bit more about it too. 

Is it a reg force RSO that supervises when you shoot?


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## condor888000

Corporal McDill. said:
			
		

> They're real C7s?
> Wow.   I wish I was in Army cadets, instead of Air.



They shoot, we fly in those great bricks with wings!  ;D


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## Scott

I agree with Catalyst so long as there is information sharing and not whining, good on you guys keeping it such so far. KevinB is right on with his comment, you're still firing the weapon.

Moreso, I think it should be made fun for the Cadets and also bolster marksmanship, make it a treat, you're not trying to qualify with the thing, remember.


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## Q.Y. Ranger

Catalyst said:
			
		

> I would say keep it open. Nobody's really whining about how they can't shoot 24/7 with it. I'm interested to know a bit more about it too.
> 
> Is it a reg force RSO that supervises when you shoot?



I know that reservist and regular force RSO's supervise us while we are doing the shoot. This October in Borden we had Reg force from PPCLI and Queens own rifles helping supervise and instruct while we shot the C7.


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## sgt_mandal

What I don't understand is; why can other elements shoot them but we can't even touch them? I think the sea types can at least do drill with them but I'm not sure. Not complaining or anything, just wondering.


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## Inch

Don't sweat it Mandal, I haven't touched a C7 since BOTC four years ago. C7 quals aren't very important going through flight school, there's more than enough stuff to do that you don't even think about shooting. We do annual qual shoots on Sqn though, I should be doing mine in the spring. Are you located near an airforce base? You could always run it up the chain and see if a Sqn will take a few of you with them.


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## catalyst

Mandal - 

1. No elements are authorized to drill with the C7's.

2. Sea cadets are authorized to shoot the C7, but as I was told "its once in a blue moon" and the situational requirements are different than those of the army cadets (ie - ammo provided by afu, rather than the RCSU). The age requirement is the same as the army cadets.


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## sgt_mandal

Thanks for the reply Catalyst.

Inch, no we are not near a base, be we go up to Trenton quite often. We use the range up there whenever we can. Hmm, I'll see what my CO will say about that idea.


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## condor888000

I'd read CATO 14-41, Appendix 1, Annex A, Paragraphs 14 and 15.

[quote author=CATO 14-41, Appendix 1, Annex A, Paragraphs 14 and 15]
AIR CADETS 
14. CSTC â â€œ use of the C7/8 is not authorized. 
15. LHQ â â€œ use of the C7/8 is not authorized.
[/quote]

I know   :'(

Any questions on C7/C8 famil firing, see...

http://www.cadets.ca/_docs/cato-oaic/1441A3_b.pdf

It's a pdf so you may want to download it.


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## Whiskey_Dan

I was told that cadets can only have 5 rounds in the mag at a time to prevent the cadets from firing the weapon on full auto
as cadets wouldn't have the know how of how to handle a weapon on full auto.


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## Scott

Possibly the fact that you are a civilian with a restricted weapon. There is no need to fire it on automatic so why tempt fate by loading a 30 round mag and giving it to you? Again, as cadets you are not required to qualify on the thing, they allow you to fire it as a treat and to bolster marksmanship principles.


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## Inch

ARMYboi69 said:
			
		

> Well the only difference would be that it continues to fire, so kick back is constant.   Other then that what would be different about handling it?



Constant kick back? BAHAHAHAHAHAHA! From a guy that's never fired an automatic weapon! Study up on how a bullet exits the barrel and the effect the "twist" has on the bullet. Then think of Newtons 3rd law, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. The weapon doesn't just give a constant kick back, the weapon actually climbs up and left on you. I had a hard time keeping it on target after firing more than a short burst, I'd love to watch a 14 year old try to keep it pointed down range.


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## Scott

And with a buffer spring the "kick back" is somewhat minimal.

Why do I bother?


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## aesop081

Another " dont talk if you have no idea"  kinda thing ?


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## sgt_mandal

ARMYboi69 said:
			
		

> Well the only difference would be that it continues to fire, so kick back is constant.   Other then that what would be different about handling it?


*sigh* even I could think about a million reasons for that, 5 rounds would be more than enough. Better than loading each round in teh barrel. Can you do that with a C7?


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## Scott

Can you elaborate a bit Mandal?


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## sgt_mandal

Instead of having to use a magazine, could you load each round one by one? IE, load one round, fire, then load again and fire etc... can you do that with a C7 or does it have to be loaded through a magazine?


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## Inch

I think it'd be pretty difficult to do that, the ejection port isn't all that big let alone sticking your fingers in there. I've never seen it done.


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## Scott

Also, I wouldn't want to be cramming a finger in there just in case the bolt came forward, that might sting a bit. There is a saying about putting fingers in places......... Rated 'R' though.


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## sgt_mandal

I see, thanks


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## condor888000

Too bad, I hardly trust cadets with an air rifle, heck I hardly trust some cadets with a  butter knife, let alone a C7 with 5 rounds in the magazine...


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## Inch

condor888000 said:
			
		

> Too bad, I hardly trust cadets with an air rifle, heck I hardly trust some cadets with a   butter knife, let alone a C7 with 5 rounds in the magazine...



Well the C7 is an assault rifle, I don't think they had anything in mind except how efficiently a soldier could fire it in the field. Loading a round at a time is useless in the field, so why incorporate it into the design?

Piper, "Official reason"? Have you got a reference for that? I don't think the legality of the mag capacity is even an after thought when you're talking about a fully automatic assault rifle in the hands of a teenager. The C7 is a prohibited weapon and according to the law can only be handled by cadets under direct supervision by CF members not including CICs.


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## condor888000

True Inch, I guess that it makes a lot more sense...comment still stands about how far I trust my cadets though...one shot a lead pellet into an electric socket because he was curious...idiot...


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## Inch

Wow, still,  it wasn't all that different when I was in army cadets. The idiots seem to come out of the woodwork when firearms are involved. I'm not even going to get into some of the stuff I've seen, it might give some ideas to any lurking idiots that may be here.


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## chrisf

2332Piper said:
			
		

> Remember now, a magazine with a capacity of more than 5 rounds is prohibited under the Firearms Act, and that is the reason why cadets do not use them. It is pefectly legal for a civilian to fire a C7 (well, maybye not, seeing as it can go auto, someone wish to elaborate?) and you can buy a semi-aunto AR-15 (yes, even in Canada...unless they changed it as of late) if you have the right permit. The official reason why cadets don't use the high capacity mags is simply a legal reason.



There's no law against them using high capacity magazines, just as there is no law against using prohibited weapons. The law bans ownership and transport, not use (Which, for all intents and purposes, is a ban on use, as if you can't own or transport it, how would you use it? But it's not a specific ban on use.)

The exception for cadets is not an exception at all, everything they do with regards to the C7 falls within the confines of the firearms laws as they apply to any other civillian. The weapons are owned by the department of national defence, and transported by DND personnel in DND vehicles.

The reason you don't get more then 5 rounds in a magazine could be a written cadet policy, or more likely, it's just a common sense safety thing, but it has nothing to do with law. 

On the *range* you never load more then the amount of ammunition you need. It's dangerous. Handing a cadet a weapon capable of auto-fire, with a full magazine, would be just as dangerous. It's hard enough for troops, adults who are physically developed, experienced with automatic weapons, to keep them steady while firing. If a cadet was to be foolish enough to flip the selector to auto, just to "check it out", despite being given dire warnings against it, the consqeunces could potentially be deadly.



> And besides, shooting full auto does nothing to improve your marksmanship skills. It would be like using a fire hose to water your garden. Does not help at all. And thats why you shoot in cadets, to become a proficient shot.



Yeah, but I can assure you while it's counter-productive, watering a garden with a garden hose would be plenty of fun.


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## gorf

Quote:I don't think the legality of the mag capacity is even an after thought when you're talking about a fully automatic assault rifle in the hands of a teenager. 

I'm going to basic training in January, and I'm only 16. You have to remeber that is that a lot of tennagers are stupid, but not all teeneagers are stupid. A lot of US special forces are only in thier teens (I'm not sure about Canada). 

I think that there should be an age restriction on cadets for using the C7, ie. I don't think anyone wants a 13 year old who has just watched Saving Private Ryan or Black Hawk Down with a full auto rifle.


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## Scott

You're only 16, sure, but you will go through extensive and well supervised training on the weapons that you use. You will also have to pass PO checks before you get near the range and live ammunition.


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## gorf

True


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## AZA-02

Teenage special ops, Buahhh there called spy kids 1 and 2 and 3d.


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## chrisf

2332Piper said:
			
		

> Finally, my garden hose example, well, its fun and all, but what you use depends on what you want to get out of it.



As soon as I find an unattended fire hose near an unattended lawn, I'll get back to you on this one.


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## gorf

I seem to remember reading somewhere that some of rangers in Somolia were around 19 years of age.


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## primer

my72jeep said:
			
		

> CATO's say 25 rds at the unit and if your only getting it in 5 rds mags I cant say but it may be that you shoot in 5 rds groups?
> most times its up to the RSO as to how many rds in the mag and what type of shooting is to be done.



Yes that is true for an RSO to how many rounds loaded in the Regs/P Res. But in the cadet world it is only a 5 round mag no more even if its a Reg/PRes or CIC RSO. Trust me I know


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## primer

I was on the First CIC C-7 RSO course for cadets back in 99. We had the same question brought up about the 5 round mag. It was said that if a cadet dos put the weapon on full it will only spit out 5 rounds and can be brought under control much faster that a 30 that was said by the ACA from PAC REG...


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## aesop081

Gorf said:
			
		

> I seem to remember reading somewhere that some of rangers in Somolia were around 19 years of age.




Rangers are not part of the US spec ops command therefore not special forces.


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## D-n-A

The 75th Ranger Regiment is part of the US Special Operations Command. But the only Special Forces soldiers in the US Military is the US Army Special Forces aka Green Berets.


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## aesop081

My misstake........thanks.

Seals and air force special ops do afll under SOCOM as well however


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## D-n-A

A lot of units in the US Military are part of the USSOCOM, I heard the Marines were starting up a unit to be part of USSOCOM aswell.


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## Q.Y. Ranger

Gorf said:
			
		

> I seem to remember reading somewhere that some of rangers in Somolia were around 19 years of age.



Ive read the same thing. Ive heard that the average age of US Rangers, is about 19.


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## foerestedwarrior

Q.Y. Ranger said:
			
		

> Ive read the same thing. Ive heard that the average age of US Rangers, is about 19.



I very much dought that. About the rifles, what do they do for you guys/girls that have fired them? do they teach you all your proper drills and such, or do they show you how to laod, ready and such only? About the auto thing, why do you think that the US M16A5 has only repitition and 3 rnd burst? On Auto, i find 2-3 rounds, and you are off target at liek 20 m. I have only fired about 100 rounds on auto, so there are way more experianced people than me. Is there some sort of rile course with cadets? like one you go do marksmanship for liek 2 weeks or whatever, would be a neat addition to that, then let the ones qualified on that to go out and shoot.


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## my72jeep

This issue has a lot of intrest so I went back and read CATO'S.
CATO 14-41 appendix 3 annex A pargraph 16 sub par d states that cadets are only to fire 5 rd mags Sorry.
     It may go back to the time when cadets were stopped from firing all but the air rifle for a bit while the powers that be decided weather a cadet was actually in possession of the C-7 or if it even came under the national firearms rules due to that it belonged to the military.some consessions were made and I think that may have been one.
I know cadets are not to fire at any thing but marksmenship targets (no fig. 11/12) and must be under suppervision of a qualified person at all times. (CATO's state suppervision is no more than three meters away)
CATO'S (Cadet Authorization and Training Orders)


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## HollywoodHitman

When I was an Army Cadet, we still had the FN's. We were on the ranges quite a bit and shooting the 7.62mm as well as a number of other types of weapons as well. The fact that the kids these days are only really allowed to shoot pellet guns is a terrible thing. I don't think it's a bad idea to let the kids shoot the C7 under strict supervision, as one of the previous roles of the Cadet system was to stimulate an interest in the CF in general. To do this they should be exposed to the kit they might be able to use in the future....Although I hear it's no longer one of the aims of the Cadet movement.

Anyway, I think the C7 for Cadet use is not a bad idea. Principles of marksmanship don't change, but it certainly helps when you're shooting something that is not a pellet gun.


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## Q.Y. Ranger

HollywoodHitman said:
			
		

> Anyway, I think the C7 for Cadet use is not a bad idea. Principles of marksmanship don't change, but it certainly helps when you're shooting something that is not a pellet gun.



I'm a Cdt Sgt, and i just got to fire the C7 a few months ago. And i completely agree with what HollywoodHitman said. Its a lot more fun to shoot a 5.56 round, then a pellet. And i think it would give much more intrest into the CF then just shooting a pellet gun.


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## my72jeep

HollywoodHitman said:
			
		

> as one of the previous roles of the Cadet system was to stimulate an interest in the CF in general. To do this they should be exposed to the kit they might be able to use in the future....Although I hear it's no longer one of the aims of the Cadet movement.
> Oh its still one of the three aims of the Cadet Movement
> 1. Citizenship
> 2.Physical activy
> 3.Instrest in the CF.


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## M16

The M16 has burst and single modes so the soldiers don't deplete ammmo warrior.


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## condor888000

You are a cadet. He is a reserve Cpl. Why the heck are you correcting him on weapons that you can had little or more likely no experience with? ???

P.S



			
				foerestedwarrior said:
			
		

> ... only repitition and 3 rnd burst?...


To my limited understanding, he is saying the same thing you just said...


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## M16

lol


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## winchable

I just had this awful vision of the rifle on auto with a 30 round mag in it and a cadet behind the trigger
*fire fire fire*rifle moves up, to the right annnnd over*Che is somehow shot despite being in the safety of his office*


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## M16

They should restrict the C7s cadets use to Semi-automatic only.


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## Q.Y. Ranger

M16 said:
			
		

> They should restrict the C7s cadets use to Semi-automatic only.



Cadets are only aloud to fire on repetition.


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## M16

I meant if they modify the C7s so the can only shoot on semi-auto.   That way nobody could shoot on full-auto if they tried.


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## sgt_mandal

Excuse my unknowingness, but what do you mean by repetition?


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## condor888000

He figures they should screw with it so it won't fire on auto. Problem is, what about the Regs/Res who use these in the field?


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## M16

Set aside some C7s just for cadets.


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## condor888000

Why??? That cost more $$$, not exactly something that our military has a lot of...


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## M16

How many cadets get to actually use a C7?


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## condor888000

I don't know, I imagine it's a low number and should stay that way. If too many cadets start shooting it increases the odds that you're gonna have an idiot that does something really stupid. Also, they're spread out over the country, if you only have x C7's modified, will you fly them around to where the cadets are going to shoot them? Or save some cash, restrict the number of rounds in the magazine, and let them fire the same, unmodified service weapon.


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## M16

They only load 5 rounds at a time into the magazine.


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## condor888000

OK, so they already restict the number of rounds. Know why? So Bloggins won't put it to auto and blast away, possibly for legal reasons as well... Now if the weapons aren't capable of shooting auto, the first reason is gone. That's what I meant. I can understand what you're saying though, and why you're saying it...


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## Big Foot

First of all, to the best of my knowledge, the weapons which cadets draw all come from local armouries. Those armouries, depending on the location, need to have full functional weapons for training purposes. I don't think it would do anyone any good to take weapons away from reg force and reservists just so some 13 year old kid doesn't fire off on auto. It just doesn't make sense. Leave the weapons as they are, they were designed as a weapon of war and, in my opinion, shouldn't be modified just to accomdate the cadets.


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## chrisf

Cadets are civillians. The legality and reasoning behind the 5 rounds in the magazine has already been explained. Re-read the thread.


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## my72jeep

FSgt_mandal said:
			
		

> Excuse my unknowingness, but what do you mean by repetition?




Reptetition army for semi auto


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## my72jeep

M16 said:
			
		

> It would be illegal to put more than five anyway I guess.   Civilians can't have more than 5 rounds at a time in a mmagazineunless they have a restricted weapons permit.   I'm sure some idiots still try auto with 5 rounds anyway.   I agree with you bigfoot.



Permets or not no civi can use a mag with more than five rds for any semi auto rifle. bolt action rifle's are different


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## primer

M16 said:
			
		

> Set aside some C7s just for cadets.



All Army Cadet Training Centers have them   :dontpanic:


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## primer

DND did try to purchase a new weapon for the Army Cadet shooting programme. It was called the C-10 bolt action rifle 5.56 cal. It look somewhat like the C 7.The cost was much more that the C 7


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## Byerly

foerestedwarrior said:
			
		

> I very much dought that. About the rifles, what do they do for you guys/girls that have fired them? do they teach you all your proper drills and such, or do they show you how to laod, ready and such only? About the auto thing, why do you think that the US M16A5 has only repitition and 3 rnd burst? On Auto, i find 2-3 rounds, and you are off target at liek 20 m. I have only fired about 100 rounds on auto, so there are way more experianced people than me. Is there some sort of rile course with cadets? like one you go do marksmanship for liek 2 weeks or whatever, would be a neat addition to that, then let the ones qualified on that to go out and shoot.



Forestedwarrior, 

if 2-3 rounds of auto is throwing your aim off by 20 m then you are doing something wrong.  There is now way a busrt that small should have that adverse effect on your aim and control of the weapon.

Stu


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## xterra rat

Hey Cadets

Here is a good idea. Just join the army regs or reserves like I did after cadets and you'll never want to see a C7 again after sleeping with it, eating with it, cleaning it a 1,000 times, holding it outstretched with one hand during pt. It's JUST A RIFLE.


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## 1feral1

We had some cadets out once with the F88 rifle. Single shot lock out engaged (so no fully auto), and a 1 on 1 coaching system used. No problems. That was in 1997.

I am a firm believer on keeping small arms in cadets ( for drill and shooting competitivly), it promotes responsibility and teaches on on safety, plus its competitive too.

Cadets here use the F88 for drill, along with the L1A1 SLR (Aussie version of the old FN C1A1). Both rifles are converted to DP only, so they are made permanantly inoperable at factory level. DP means DP. The only moveable parts are the sling swivels, but the look perfect.

DP: Drill Purpose

My 2 cents.


Cheers,

Wes


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## Ex-Dragoon

M16 said:
			
		

> It would be illegal to put more than five anyway I guess.   Civilians can't have more than 5 rounds at a time in a magizine unless they have a restricted weapons permit.   I'm sure some idiots still try auto with 5 rounds anyway.   I agree with you bigfoot.



I have a restricted FAC and I can only put 5 rounds in my semi auto rifle......and 10 for a semi auto pistol. Having a restricted gives you no permission to have larger mags.  :


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## 1feral1

I think the 5rds limit is strictly for control, nothing more, plus they can learn to load more mags   ;D

Either way, as long as they are allowed to shot, thats what counts.

Cheers,

Wes


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## Spr.Earl

The new Gun Laws prohibit Cadets from using a Assault Rifle's.
Under the new Laws only the Military and designated members of a Police Force can use Assault Rifles.

End of Subject.


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## catalyst

As a future CIC officer and cadet instructor, sometime during my tenure, I  would like to hold a C7 rifle. I don't have to shoot it, I just wanna see one of those things up close


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## foerestedwarrior

Stu said:
			
		

> Forestedwarrior,
> 
> if 2-3 rounds of auto is throwing your aim off by 20 m then you are doing something wrong.   There is now way a busrt that small should have that adverse effect on your aim and control of the weapon.
> 
> Stu



I think you misinterpreted what i ment, I was 20m from the target shooting auto, not having it walk up 20m when i shot.


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## Byerly

Seen.  My mistake.

Stu


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## Spartan

I'm just curious but how many units and their AFU go down to the SAT range?
Workaround to this problem of law conflicts?


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## foerestedwarrior

I have been on our SAT(FATS) on teh army cadet night, and have a bunch of them come down and watch us. I dont know if any of them use it or not, but mmmmm interesting thought.


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## catalyst

in BC, there is an PRCI prohibiting cadets and CIC officers firing on SAT ranges.


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## aesop081

What is the reasoning behind this prohibition ?


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## foerestedwarrior

Seems dumb, all the proper Geneva Convention stuff, and a set ROE's are hard programmed into it. When you fire, you are using compressed gas to operate the weapon, the ban seems stupid, then again. If it is violent, the military cant endorse it. Cadets/CIC, it just makes no sense not letting them do it.


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## catalyst

19. Cadets and CIC officers may not fire at any targets depicting either a human figure or a military target (e.g.
CF Figure 11 and Figure 12 targets, bunkers and other structures, and vehicles). Cadets and CIC officers may not
fire on a Small Arms Simulator under any circumstances.

http://www.cadets.net/pac/support/pdf/policy_weapons_ranges.pdf

The closest I've been to a SAT is sitting next to the door in the basement of the armoury. What do they do? DO they show people? I think that would be the reason for the ban.


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## chrisf

primer said:
			
		

> All Army Cadet Training Centers have them   :dontpanic:



They'd have to be on loan from a unit...


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## M16

Probably.


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## my72jeep

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> The new Gun Laws prohibit Cadets from using a Assault Rifle's.
> Under the new Laws only the Military and designated members of a Police Force can use Assault Rifles.
> 
> End of Subject.



Sorry any one can own an assault rifle, I have two but they are on the restricted list use at the range only


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## Inch

He forgot to put the word "automatic" before assault rifles. You knew damn well what he was saying, just as I did. If you want to get into the semantics of it, I wouldn't call anything an *assault* rifle unless it can be fired on automatic.


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## my72jeep

If you owned it before 1972 you can still own a full auto but only military ranges are up to standard for their use that I know of.
But on a sad note I can only put 5 rds in my AR-15 but a guy with a belt fed MG42 that fires 1300 rounds per minute has no such restriction.You figure that one out.
but the government classes it an assault rifle even if we don't.


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## Inch

Are you sure about the existence of a grandfather clause like that? I knew a guy about 10 years ago that had a working Vickers liquid cooled MG, he had two options when the new laws came out in the late 90's, sell it to a museum or have the barrel welded since he wasn't allowed to keep it as it was.


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## 1feral1

my72jeep said:
			
		

> If you owned it before 1972 you can still own a full auto but only military ranges are up to standard for their use that I know of.
> But on a sad note I can only put 5 rds in my AR-15 but a guy with a belt fed MG42 that fires 1300 rounds per minute has no such restriction.You figure that one out.
> but the government classes it an assault rifle even if we don't.



Fully automatic weapons if registered prior to 01 Jan 1978 (the same time FACs come into law) are owned in Canada legally, and they (owners of such) can trade/buy/sell to anyone in their same catagory as themselves. I know many owners of such in Manitoba, Ontario,   and Saskatchewan.

The law is current and unchanged. However some ant-gun police, would have told you different, and have the guns destroyed. Relying on your ignorance to get this done. I have seen this too also by police who were unaware of the rights and laws gun owners, and gun legislation. when in doubt yourself, ring someone who knows. 

As for the bloke with the Vickers, was it converted to CA status? As if it was, and if he missed the deadline to register it back in the early 90's, the gun cannot be registered, and would have to be de-milled permanantly to an inactive condition. I used to have many CA's which all were registered, and although I sold them prior to coming here, the person I sold tehm to still has them in his collection, and they are all happily registered.

A friend of mine in Canada has a CA Vickers (in 7.92 x57mm), really nice and complete converted to this calibre for Turkey in belgium. Here is a pic of it.

Cheers,

Wes


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## my72jeep

Inch said:
			
		

> Are you sure about the existence of a grandfather clause like that? I knew a guy about 10 years ago that had a working Vickers liquid cooled MG, he had two options when the new laws came out in the late 90's, sell it to a museum or have the barrel welded since he wasn't allowed to keep it as it was.


Was he the owner prior to 1972?
that was the date.Ok sorry I was wrong thank you wes 1978 was the date.


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## Inch

my72jeep said:
			
		

> Was he the owner prior to 1972?



I couldn't tell you. All I know is he wasn't allowed to keep it.


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## my72jeep

Under stood. A bud of mine was stopped from registering a FN by the OPP they said he could not own it. his answer to them was if thats so, how come I have 5 now.most cops don't know the laws they are to over worked.


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## 1feral1

Very true My72, I seen the same thing in Saskatchewan, but in other areas where the RCMP were in charge (rural detachments). Seems the PS's of Regina and Saskatoon were pretty much well on the ball.

This whole national thing now, I feel is the most incompetant disasater ever achieved (I found this out 1st hand in 2000 and 2004 when I was back visiting).

The Sask Govt says it will not bother prosecuting anyone in breech of registration of current long arms, but the RCMP say otherwise.

I always used to say, we should never let eastern Canadian politics dictate western Canadian lifestyles. What a waste of over 1,000,000,000 dollars!

Cheers,

Wes


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## armygurl_557

Can I ask what that Picture is Of? I really don't see what It is.. I just see a lot of Guns..:S


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## Big Foot

Wesley H. Allen said:
			
		

> A friend of mine in Canada has a CA Vickers (in 7.92 x57mm), really nice and complete converted to this calibre for Turkey in belgium. Here is a pic of it.


I think thats pretty self-explanatory


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## GGHG_Cadet

It is a Vickers machine gun. CA I think means converted auto. So it would be a converted auto Vickers machine gun.


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## rangers

first of all, if you go to a shooting camp, they let you shoot as much with the c7 as the feel necessary, and yes, i do think that we should be able to have c7 instead of Daisy rifles. we are being trained and molded into the perfect recruit, so why not lets us get a better taste of whats to come?

Cpl.clarida
2799 Queens York Rangers


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## Q.Y. Ranger

rangers said:
			
		

> first of all, if you go to a shooting camp, they let you shoot as much with the c7 as the feel necessary, and yes, i do think that we should be able to have c7 instead of Daisy rifles. we are being trained and molded into the perfect recruit, so why not lets us get a better taste of whats to come?
> 
> Cpl.Clarita
> 2799 Queens York Rangers



Hey Cpl. Clarita, in "shooting camp", which i believe you're talking about CLI marksman in connaught, I'm pretty sure all you get to shoot is the C12, not the C7, and in Bravo CLI in Blackdown, you shoot only 30 rounds with the C7. Alpha only gets 20.


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## ouyin2000

rangers said:
			
		

> we are being trained and molded into the perfect recruit, so why not lets us get a better taste of whats to come?


the Cadet program is NOT a way for the CF to train child soldiers

remember the 3 aims of the CCM:

To develop in youth the attributes of good citizenship and leadership;
promote physical fitness; and
stimulate the interest of youth in the sea, land, and air activites of the Canadian Forces.

all that means is that the CCM is trying to teach you to become a better community participator, and leader, make you physically fit, and educate you in the ways of the Canadian Forces.

being able to have a familiarization shoot on the C7 is all you need at a typical cadet level. The Daisy 853C Air rifle is enough to have you practice your shooting skills at the corps level. If you are a good enough shot then go take the shooting courses


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## Sh0rtbUs

rangers said:
			
		

> first of all, if you go to a shooting camp, they let you shoot as much with the c7 as the feel necessary, and yes, i do think that we should be able to have c7 instead of Daisy rifles. we are being trained and molded into the perfect recruit, so why not lets us get a better taste of whats to come?
> 
> Cpl.clarida
> 2799 Queens York Rangers



Funny, because when Im at the Armouries when you guys are parading, Im seeing a bunch of small children. I have seen a few that I, in all honesty feel that they have the maturity level to handle the C7. But, if I were the RSO given the option to select the cadets I wanted to allow fire on my Range, it wouldnt be more than 3 or 4 out of the entire Unit. You arent the perfect recruits...trust me.


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## chrisf

Wesley H. Allen said:
			
		

> I always used to say, we should never let eastern Canadian politics dictate western Canadian lifestyles. What a waste of over 1,000,000,000 dollars!



Western politics? Eastern politics? I'm guessing you'll find substantially more support for a banning of firearms in say, B.C. then you would in say, Newfoundland. Dividing the country into east and west is a bit short sighted...


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## 1feral1

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Western politics? Eastern politics? I'm guessing you'll find substantially more support for a banning of firearms in say, B.C. then you would in say, Newfoundland. Dividing the country into east and west is a bit short sighted...



Sorry pal, there is a cultural difference between metro Toronto and the prairies. What I have said is true, many western Canadains have always had a bad taste in their mouths wheh it comes to eastern Canada. Many feel short changed. This ranges from gun control to the Crow rate.


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## chrisf

Wouldn't argue in the slightest the difference between the politics of Toronto and the prairies and Toronto, but still, you'll find it's not an "east vs west" thing, it's a bit more complicated then that.


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## 407QOCH

rangers said:
			
		

> first of all, if you go to a shooting camp, they let you shoot as much with the c7 as the feel necessary, and yes, i do think that we should be able to have c7 instead of Daisy rifles. we are being trained and molded into the perfect recruit, so why not lets us get a better taste of whats to come?
> 
> Cpl.clarida
> 2799 Queens York Rangers




When i was in CL marksman, they said that they would let us shoot the C7s, if we wernt shooting in competition because the practice with the c7s might mess up our shooting with the c11s/c12s


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## condor888000

And what precisely does piper's post have to do with that?  ???


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## 407QOCH

oopps, good question, i guess i dint read the small wrighting, i meant to grab rangers post.


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## condor888000

Ok that makes more sense.........


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## Burrows

Which is why theres an edit button


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## mz589

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Wouldn't argue in the slightest the difference between the politics of Toronto and the prairies and Toronto, but still, you'll find it's not an "east vs west" thing, it's a bit more complicated then that.



No doubt about that, go to eastern or southwestern Ontario and see how popular the gun registry is out there. I think the true divide isn't east and west but really urban vs rural. I'll bet the registry has quite a bit of support in Calgary and Vancouver in addition to Toronto.


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## goodform

mz589, 
I'll agree with that to a point. I think there is more of a "gun culture"on the prairies and the east coast (more space, means you can shoot for more freely, also a source of food! I'm from the prairies, and hunt). I now live in Vancouver in Kitsilano, big change, and I'm sure you'd find more support for anti-gun laws, and it would be fairly easy to swing those uneducated about firearms in that direction as, in simple terms, no guns means no one gets hurt with guns. Even though crimes committed with firearms is at the low end of occurence in violent crime. Urban populations aren't usually exposed to firearms that much.

Just a Sig Op
Wesley Allen is in fact from a town 15 minutes from mine, and I can't speak for him, but "East vs. West" is a term we use that describes "Prairies (and those who side with us) vs. Ontario (and those who side with them)", and not to divide the whole of the country. I'm still getting used to the lingo of Vancouver and am glad Wesley still remembers his roots . ;D

What was the original topic again?


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## chrisf

LeGars said:
			
		

> Just a Sig Op
> Wesley Allen is in fact from a town 15 minutes from mine, and I can't speak for him, but "East vs. West" is a term we use that describes "Prairies (and those who side with us) vs. Ontario (and those who side with them)", and not to divide the whole of the country. I'm still getting used to the lingo of Vancouver and am glad Wesley still remembers his roots . ;D



I raised the point as an easterner, largely to remind everyone that the country doesn't end at Ontario, or even Quebec for that matter.


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## Ranger

I loved shooting the C7...it was an awesome opportunity. 
I agree with Slim though, a lot of our cadets...like the majority are so ridiculously immature it's disgusting.
I'd like to meet you sometime ShOrTbUs...you seem pretty cool.


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## Sh0rtbUs

Che said:
			
		

> I just had this awful vision of the rifle on auto with a 30 round mag in it and a cadet behind the trigger
> *fire fire fire*rifle moves up, to the right annnnd over*Che is somehow shot despite being in the safety of his office*



  ;D Ah that made my night. Poor Che, just minding his business...

As to the reasons M16's have only burst and Semi-Automatic fire, it is a proven fact that when firing on Automatic at ranges no more than 25m, only the initial 2 rounds engage the intended location on the target. The rest tend to have a less exagerrated "Che effect"   Mostly, Automatic is used for CQB when u dont have the time to eye the sight, or when simply trying to supress at close ranges. Anything over 50m is best left to Semi-Automatic.

Cadets firing on Automatic? Please... thats not marksmanship training.


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## condor888000

Sh0rtbUs said:
			
		

> Cadets firing on Automatic? Please... thats not marksmanship training.



......or safe......


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## Jonny Boy

condor888000 said:
			
		

> ......or safe......



or smart. they would never be able to control it


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## Duke

Speaking from experience, Hutch?  

Firing auto is expressly forbidden for cadets.

A lot, maybe most Army Cadets are curious about the 3rd position for the selector, but generally accept the explanation that if/when they join the PRes or Regs, they will receive the training and trigger time to safely and effectively use the full functionality of the C7.

In the two summers I have done RSO duty there weren't any problems with cadets 'experimenting' with the selector switch!

Duke


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## Sgt.Fitzpatrick

Some people are shocked that we have to shoot 5 rds but think about. Were're shooting 5 rds at a time because for a 5 round grouping, that make sense. :threat: :bullet: :bullet: :bullet: :bullet: :bullet:


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## 407QOCH

Very true, And even if we are shooting 10 round groupings, we can still use 2 magazines.


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## Sh0rtbUs

Its a control issue. Id say its worth doing an extra reload drill and be safe, than load up a Cadet with full mags, then hit a berm and pray.

How is it handledwithin those fortunate Cadets who have fired the C7, have you been taught all the Stoppage/Reload/Unload drills, or simply unload/reload...or have someone else do it?


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## Da_man

Sh0rtbUs said:
			
		

> Its a control issue. Id say its worth doing an extra reload drill and be safe, than load up a Cadet with full mags, then hit a berm and pray.
> 
> How is it handledwithin those fortunate Cadets who have fired the C7, have you been taught all the Stoppage/Reload/Unload drills, or simply unload/reload...or have someone else do it?




i was wondering this too


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## ouyin2000

when i did my c7 training in '01 at vernon, we were taught the load/unload/stoppage drills, if i remember correctly

the training was done one day, and the familiarization shoot was the next day


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## Sh0rtbUs

ouyin2000 said:
			
		

> when i did my c7 training in '01 at vernon, we were taught the load/unload/stoppage drills, if i remember correctly
> 
> the training was done one day, and the familiarization shoot was the next day



Glad to see they did in fact teach the drills, mind you 1 day isnt very long. Were you guys tested in any way?


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## ouyin2000

yes it was 2 sessions of about 2 or 3 hours each in practice, and the instructor came around and reviewed/tested each cadet's skills. if they couldnt handle the weapon safely, they were coached in the proper ways, and if they still didnt get it, they would not be allowed on the range

the instructors were also available on the range if anyone had any problems in mid-shoot


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## xFusilier

The 5 round limitation for cadets is not as a result of the Firearms Act.  The Firearms Act and the attendant provisions of Part III Criminal Code do not apply to cadets as they are prescribed to be public officers while undergoing cadet training.  If the Firearms Act were to apply to cadets then the only way they could be in possession of the service rifle would be under the direct and immediate supervision of someone who could lawfully possess one.  This would necessitate a one to one student to instructor ratio any time a cadet was in possession of a C7.  The 5 round limitation is a specification of the conduct of the practice in the CLI CTP, and is a limitation imposed by the CCM.


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## civvy3840

rangers said:
			
		

> first of all, if you go to a shooting camp, they let you shoot as much with the c7 as the feel necessary, and yes, i do think that we should be able to have c7 instead of Daisy rifles. we are being trained and molded into the perfect recruit, so why not lets us get a better taste of whats to come?
> 
> Cpl.clarida
> 2799 Queens York Rangers




I really don't think that they would even let you touch a loaded C7 let alone shoot one. I know people in cadets and they are to immature to handle the daisy rifles. They shot each other in the head! and just to let you know cadets are not the perfect recruit. One of the people in cadets that I know can't even meet the qualifications to get into the army. The reason he wants to join is so he can Quote " Grab an M4 and blow off someones head because I'm good at that in video games." unquote


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## condor888000

Well you're wrong about the being allowed to shoot the C7 part. Army cadets are permitted to shoot it under very strict guidelines. Link to CATO below:

http://www.cadets.ca/support/cato-oaic/intro_e.asp?cato=14-41

Espically appendix 4 which states all conditions which must be satisfied in order to fire the C7/C8 rifle.

For the part about the maturity of some cadets, I agree totally. Some are total idiots when it comes to even daiseys. I had one cadet purposefully shoot a pellet into an electrical outlet on our range.....


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## Sh0rtbUs

condor888000 said:
			
		

> For the part about the maturity of some cadets, I agree totally. Some are total idiots when it comes to even daiseys. I had one cadet purposefully shoot a pellet into an electrical outlet on our range.....



I view Cadets as a bag of Sh*t and Dimes, some seem like great kids...others, Im really not sure about. I really dont want to paint  them all with the same brush mind you, I've lots of friends in the Army who were former Cadets. Some good at their job, some not. 

Either way, this C7 issue is an extremely sensitive thing to handle with Cadets solely because of this broad spectrum of maturity level and willingnes/ability to follow instructions down to the detail.


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## ouyin2000

well im going to bring up a second related discussion in here:

How about letting cadets learn and use the C7 rifles for Drill purposes?

I personally enjoyed learning C7 drill in my CL Course at summer camp im '00. i feel it is much easier than Lee Enfield drill.


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## Sh0rtbUs

ouyin2000 said:
			
		

> well I'm going to bring up a second related discussion in here:
> 
> How about letting cadets learn and use the C7 rifles for Drill purposes?
> 
> I personally enjoyed learning C7 drill in my CL Course at summer camp I'm '00. i feel it is much easier than Lee Enfield drill.



Would it really be worth it to devote weapons better spent elsewhere to Cadets for no real beneficial purpose...

I'm pretty sure that Units who find their Arsenal a little empty would be able to implement them for their designed purpose a little bit better than a Cadet would...


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## ouyin2000

im talking specifically about summer camps, since they already have C7s allocated for training purposes

at the corps level, there could be an agreement between the cadet unit and a local reg force/reserve unit. have the CF members come in on a weekend or something and teach the cadets some basic drill movements

the problem i could forsee with this, is that the cadets would be learning C7 drillm but probalby wouldnt be able to use it for drill competitions. they'd be restricted to Enfield Drill, and therefor would have to learn 2 different types of movements.


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## Sh0rtbUs

I couldnt see the differences in drill being very dramatic...

Correct me if Im wrong, but provide examples if doing so please.


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## ouyin2000

from what i recall you dont Shoulder Arms with an Enfield, you would Slope Arms instead? it has been a couple of years since ive done any rifle drill


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## civvy3840

Sh0rtbUs I look the same way at cadets as you which is why I'm not in them. As for ouyin2000  question I don't think you should be able to use them for drill. Because they could get damaged, and the armed forces need them more than you!


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## Canadian Sig

condor888000 said:
			
		

> For the part about the maturity of some cadets, I agree totally. Some are total idiots when it comes to even daiseys. I had one cadet purposefully shoot a pellet into an electrical outlet on our range.....



  That is the reason and responsability of the range staff. I spent 6 years in cadets before I joined the Reg force and we fired Cadet no.7 (enfield .22 conversions), anchustz .22's, Parker Hale .308's and FN 7.62's ( I now own 2 of my own). In those 6 years I never saw a problem on our ranges. We used to host a large shooting competition in Powell River BC and it had tons of cadets shooting and still no problems. The reason, IMHO, was training and supervision.Just my 2 cents


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## Ranger

A lot of our cadets are so immature, and they misuse the daisy, I mean, I can't imagine having all them using C7's. I shudder at the thought. There would be many lives in serious danger. We have those few mature cadets, and it's so refreshing not having to yell at them all the time for horsing around or somehting. But the immature cadets outnumber them 10:1.


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## Sharpey

This may have been covered as I admit, I havn't read this entire thread.

I have done Cadet C7/C8 famils before and will be doing one again this weekend.

From what I understand...16 and up and / or silver star can fire the C7/C8, repetition only, and not at "man" targets. 5 rounds per mag max. Reserve pers. will run the range as well as perform all stoppage drills. 

Basicly, all the Cadets get to do is pull the trigger.


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## qyrang

In response to your statement, I also agree that I have never seen a cadet break a Lee Enfield mind you that one of our rifles FELL apart while at slope arms. But I (and various others on our drill team) believe that doing drill with newer looking C7s rather than our old faded and chipped Enfields would look better. This could also be used as a cool recruiting tool.  It may also put the "army" back into army cadets.


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## foerestedwarrior

They make rubber training C7's for a reason......... :


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## gt102

qyrang said:
			
		

> It may also put the "army" back into army cadets.



Please, please do not open that book.



> But I (and various others on our drill team) believe that doing drill with newer looking C7s rather than our old faded and chipped Enfields would look better.



Suggest to your officers that you either pay to restore the rifles and/or slowly purchase 'new' ones over time with money raised through fundraising. You would be amazed at what a 'restorer' (cannot thing of prop' name) can do for old weapons.


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## RSM.NICHOLSON

I think it is wrong to hand the c7 over to a cadet!
they are not in the reserves or Reg force so why r they
useing what we use.


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## Michael OLeary

RSM.NICHOLSON,

If you have read through the thread you would find there is not much support for changing the current state of affairs.  

Topic locked for now.


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