# The Total Force Concept



## the patriot (15 Feb 2002)

Hello,

The Total Force concept has been in place for just over a decade now.  What are everyone‘s thoughts with respect to this?  Is this beneficial to the infantry as a whole?  What can be done to make it better for everyone?

-the patriot-


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## Jungle (16 Feb 2002)

I am not so sure we are a "total force"... well, we are on paper but... As a matter of fact, I think we will be moving away from it (unoffiacially) in the future, with the intro of the LAV-3 in reg F batt‘s. Also look at QL-4‘s: the Inf Recce QL-4 in the reg F is 8 weeks vs 5 in the res F... certainly not equivalent. Same goes with about every other course: how about 6B, mine lasted 3 months full time, plus 5 weeks on SLC. Don‘t get me wrong, I have a lot of respect for many res F pers, but no matter how hard the Generals try, we are not "total". The next (or current) conflict will not give us time to implement "mobilization plans" (if we have any) and we will have to fight with what we have (God help us...). The res F Brigades should be reorganized into real brigades, and equipped as such, so in case of emergency they could be activated "as is" to supplement the reg F. I think this would bring us closer to a "total force", and give a better sense of purpose to res F pers.


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## JRMACDONALD (19 Feb 2002)

What can be done to make it better for everyone?  IMPLEMENT  IT!!!


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## Jungle (19 Feb 2002)

implement it in what form ? it‘s current form or a modified one ???


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## JRMACDONALD (21 Feb 2002)

Do you think it has been implemented yet?


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## Jungle (21 Feb 2002)

There have been attempts to implement it, but we will never have a total force until we have equivalent qualifications. Now if we look at the British model, the Territorial Army‘s main task is defence of the country, while the reg F is deployable overseas. They also augment the reg F when needed. It will always be hard to have the res F and reg F work together, as was proven with the 10/90 battalions.


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## Alter Ego (27 Feb 2002)

> There have been attempts to implement it, but we will never have a total force until we have equivalent qualifications.


I personally don‘t think that it is reasonable to expect to have equivalent qualifications, simply due to the nature of the beast. In our current political and regulatory climate, there is no way that the Govt will legislate job protection for Reservists, which is really the only way that most Reservists could take 13 weeks off for an ISCC (or whatever were calling it these days).
It is unreasonable to expect a Reservist, who is fulfilling two distinct roles (full time civvy, part-time soldier) to be as proficient at his/her secondary role as a Reg F soldier is. This is even more evident at the higher levels, such as CSM/Coy Comd/Bgde Comd.
Ideally, the Reg F and Res F would have two distinct roles with little overlap.
The real kicker is, what should those roles be...?


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## cagomez (27 Feb 2002)

I agree with Alter Ego, equal qualifications for both res and regs would be very tough given our current situation. Now dont get me wrong. The current standards for Res QL‘s are pretty watered down to a very low point and should be improved but to soup them up to Reg standards might be a little much. As of now I go to school for a very demanding program, have a family to take care of, and still make time to keep an active training schedule with my unit. Its been pretty hectic. My biggest concern would be if I am able to attend JLC/ISCC and other course. I honestly dont think I could take off that much time and by the time I can I‘ll be a 50 year old cpl !! I have a lot of guys in my school program that often ask me if they could sign up and handle the training. The training would be no problem for any of them but when I tell them about the timing commitments I usually lose them. A big help right now would be civie support. Im talking employment protection and possibly some assistance for those taking post secondary education. Doing that could really help boost the ranks. Units should also actively liason with the major employers in their community to gain local support and recruits.

As for the actual current state of courses, alot of this QL2/3 combined stuff is unacceptable, especially for cbt arms. By providing employment protection it could be possible to lenghten (even improve) the QL3 back to the point where the recruits actually learn something.

Any comments ?


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## CSS Type (27 Feb 2002)

There is an organisation that helps you get time off work, school, whatever. It has been around for several years now and is very successful (without legislation it is the only game in town).

This org is called the Canadian Forces Liaison Council (CFLC) and you can get more information at  http://www.vcds.dnd.ca/cflc/intro_e.asp


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## TOW2B (28 Feb 2002)

AHH YES..... TOTAL FARCE. Give me a break does‘t work now and will never work because when you actually do get Reserve NCOs trained up to par with the REG Force guess what happens....They get into the REGs ASAP.The gaps between the two are just too great right now and are getting wider,in the Infantry it‘s not too bad but how many ADATS or SKYGUARD qualified reservists are there not too many how about LEOPARD ,Advanced Infantry Anything,heck even Small Arms Instructor??????
  The commitment to train these folks is not there but the resources are why aren‘t they used....your guess is as good as mine.


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## Jungle (28 Feb 2002)

This is exactly the point I was trying to make: TOTAL FORCE does not, and will probably never exist!!! And it should not be a source of shame for res F pers, or of misplaced pride for the reg F. There should be (actually there are) two components to the Land force: regular and reserve. As I said before, the reg F should concentrate on overseas depls, while the res F should be preparing for the defense of the country in case of emergency. I‘ll take things a little further: why not scrap the areas, form the reg F into a division, and the res F units in REAL brigades, to be activated if needed.


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## Michael OLeary (18 Mar 2002)

Just curious, but when you talk about forming the Res Force in "REAL brigades", do you mean:

a.   Creating formations with three infantry units, one armoured unit, one artillery unit, one service battalion, etc.?, or

b.    Creating formations by amalagamating as many units (and their manpower positions) as necessary under a coherent command structure until that "brigade" owns 1800 infantry, 600 arnour, 600 artillery soldiers, etc. with task structures assigned to fill the same ORBAT as a Reg F brigade?

Mike O‘Leary


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## centurion (18 Mar 2002)

Hmmmm, full div, real brigades? What would we do with all those generals that walk around with their opposible digit up their rectums?


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## rceme_rat (19 Mar 2002)

Mike O‘Leary --

I choose "b" -- but my bias must be declared, since I wrote the Area plan along those lines ...

The biggest political battle wasn‘t over which unit would fill which ORBAT line, but over how many supy positions - and at which rank - the current militia units would be entitled to maintain.

Sadly, I think this turned into one of those plans that just doesn‘t go anywhere because of classic resistance to change.


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## Jungle (19 Mar 2002)

I was talking about your option B. As I said before, modern conflicts give no time for mobilisation, and who would we mobilize anyway... we can hardly fill our ranks in peace time even with good pay and benefits... imagine in war ?!?!? We have to be ready to fight with what we have, so let‘s organize it in a way we can use it.


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