# Medcat and Promotion Thread- Merged



## davidk (18 Oct 2007)

I was recently diagnosed with a chronic GI disease, and was placed on TCAT while awaiting a decision from Ottawa as to whether I get medically released or not. However, I'm overdue for promotion. My BOR won't start paperwork until the doctor says that I can be promoted, but the one I spoke to in St Jean was a civilian and couldn't give me an answer.

Long story short, can I be promoted while on TCAT?


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## armyvern (18 Oct 2007)

Pte D. Krystal said:
			
		

> I was recently diagnosed with a chronic GI disease, and was placed on TCAT while awaiting a decision from Ottawa as to whether I get medically released or not. However, I'm overdue for promotion. My BOR won't start paperwork until the doctor says that I can be promoted, but the one I spoke to in St Jean was a civilian and couldn't give me an answer.
> 
> Long story short, can I be promoted while on TCAT?



CFAO 49-4



> LOWERED MEDICAL CATEGORIES
> 19.    When a member of the rank of Cpl or above who is eligible for
> promotion is assigned a temporary medical category that is lower than the
> minimum required for the member's MOC, promotion shall be deferred.
> ...



From the sounds of your post though, a recommendation has been made to have you placed on PCat vice TCat. In that case, the second half of para 21 is applicable.


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## davidk (18 Oct 2007)

Thanks, Vern, this is _exactly_ what I needed. Promotion back on track.


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## armyvern (18 Oct 2007)

Pte D. Krystal said:
			
		

> Thanks, Vern, this is _exactly_ what I needed. Promotion back on track.



Maybe not.

Did you see my note underneath??



> From the sounds of your post though, a recommendation has been made to have you placed on PCat vice TCat. In that case, the second half of para 21 is applicable.



The authority to give you your Cpls rest with your Commanding Officer. If the med world has recommended that you be placed on PCat (I suspect they have due to the words you were given about awaiting the med worlds response), then he is well within his bounds to withhold any decision until your med status is determined by Ottawa.


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## davidk (18 Oct 2007)

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH reading too fast again. We'll see. I'll be going in today to see what can or can't be done. Thanks anyway, at least I know where I stand now.


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## MaxO (4 Mar 2008)

Ok folks long time guest reader but first time member poster here. 

I have a question/issue that i would like as much input (ammo) as possible 

Here it is 

I have been in the navy for more than 4 years now. I m now on a medical category T6 with the following MEL: UFS/UFA
I do not have my QL5 because due to my medical category. 

Now I know that people on TCAT can get promoted either as A/L but my chain is feeding load of crap on the why they won't do it.
Can I get promoted ? if yes can somebody point me to the good QR&O or CFAO or CANFORGEN applicable so i can bring it to my chain ! 


Thanks guys


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## Gunner98 (4 Mar 2008)

This thread has the ref: [I merged both threads, Bruce}  "may and provided" are the key words.  Does your MOS require QL5 as a pre-req for promotion?  You could be promoted A/L.

CFAO 49-4     

21. A Pte who has a temporary medical category that is below the MOC
requirement may be promoted to Cpl provided all other prerequisites have
been met. In the case of a Pte who has a permanent medical category that
precludes unrestricted employment, the member may, subject to NDHQ/DPCAOR
approval, be promoted to Cpl providing all other promotion prerequisites
have been met.


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## MaxO (4 Mar 2008)

according to the CFAO  in the annex, looks like it is for every trade ! 
I was always told that the only prerequisite for LS/CPL is 4 years in !


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## George Wallace (4 Mar 2008)

MaxO said:
			
		

> according to the CFAO  in the annex, looks like it is for every trade !
> I was always told that the only prerequisite for LS/CPL is 4 years in !



That and to be qualified in a Trade.  Some Trades require at least two PCFs.


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## MaxO (4 Mar 2008)

my trade is NAVCOMM 


what does PCF mean ?


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## Gunner98 (4 Mar 2008)

Army terminology - PCFs = Primary Combat Functions - communicator, driver (wheeled or light or heavy track course), technical courses, etc.


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## MaxO (4 Mar 2008)

I m still confused i am starting to think that i might not have a case, which seem so unfair since i see everybody getting promoted either advance or on time even thought they are on medical or whitout a current express etc... 

I guess i pissed somebody off !!!!


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## BinRat55 (4 Mar 2008)

MaxO said:
			
		

> I m still confused i am starting to think that i might not have a case, which seem so unfair since i see everybody getting promoted either advance or on time even thought they are on medical or whitout a current express etc...
> 
> I guess i pissed somebody off !!!!



What you (and many others) have to realize is that the complexity of paperwork and justification for ANY promotion goes through more than one process and chain.  Add the medical aspect (which by the way is a prerequisite for promotion) and you have even more paperwork.  A promotion isn't a right, it's earned - through lots of hard work and a clean bill of health (with regards to your trade specifications).  The only person out of adjustment on this issue is the member.  The CF has rules called CFAO's, DAOD's and QR&O's. If more CF members were to read these their situations would not necessarily improve, but at least they would be better informed and not go around with a chip on their shoulder blaming everyone they can about how badly they have it compared to "that other guy".  You, my friend, did not piss anyone off - even I could not piss that many people off...

Rant over.


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## armyvern (6 Mar 2008)

MaxO said:
			
		

> my trade is NAVCOMM
> 
> 
> what does PCF mean ?



Whoa. You're NAVCOMM, yet you are UFS/UFA (Unfit Sea/Unfit Air). Sure, it's only a TCat but may end up a PCat (you'll only know that if you end up fully fit Sea/Air/full duties at the expirey of your TCat, or that any MELs which may eventually be assigned do not prevent you from performing your primary roles and functions) ... and are not yet QL5s qual'd.

They can hold off on your promotion ... the same ref's apply that I provided in my earlier response in this thread.

I find it interesting to see the number of members who think promotions are an "entitled" given -- in that they are hard sea/field trades, yet still believe they should be promoted when a medical category such as unfit sea/air/field ... outright states that they can not perform their primary function and role. Wow. The only TCat that one knows for sure they will be removed from --- is one that results from pregnancy (ergo the difference in the promotion eligibility/regulations application with that particular TCat).


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## MaxO (6 Mar 2008)

First of all I would like to say that I do not think that I am entitled to a promotion. All I am asking here is other people opinions on the matter. Also I loved the fact that the last 2 poster are assuming/infering  that I feel like i am entitled. 

All I am saying is that it's been done in the past and now. I actually see the messages everyday ! 

Also I was loaded on my 5 but taken off it without my knowledge or consent even thought my MELs did not limit my ability to attend in anyway .


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## PMedMoe (6 Mar 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> UFS/UFA (Unfit Sea/Unfit Air).



Whoops, I was thinking of _other_ words for those acronyms..... >


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## Springroll (6 Mar 2008)

I thought UFS/UFA was unfit sea and unfit alongside....


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## MaxO (6 Mar 2008)

It is UFS/UFA mean unfit sea/unfit alongside basically mean unfit ship at all time


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## BinRat55 (6 Mar 2008)

MaxO said:
			
		

> First of all I would like to say that I do not think that I am entitled to a promotion. All I am asking here is other people opinions on the matter. Also I loved the fact that the last 2 poster are assuming/infering  that I feel like i am entitled.
> 
> All I am saying is that it's been done in the past and now. I actually see the messages everyday !
> 
> Also I was loaded on my 5 but taken off it without my knowledge or consent even thought my MELs did not limit my ability to attend in anyway .



Neither Vern nor I assumed/inferred that you thought you were entitled.  You stated certain "facts" pertaining to your MEL and Vern gave you chapter and verse (which she does so well) regarding promotion limitations.  I myself made a general reference about " members who felt entitled" and only commented about your "pissing someone off".  

I'm glad you loved that, as Vern and I are here specifically for YOUR enjoyment.

As for being taken off your QL5's without your knowledge or consent - my question is about the superiority complex you seem to have.  Since when does your chain of command need YOUR consent? There seems to be a lack of communication on your part, and therein lies the "chip" I was speaking of...

All yours Vern!!


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## MaxO (6 Mar 2008)

You seem to think that I am an OS or something, that the feeling I have in the way you are talking to me, but  i guess even if i was it wouldn't change anything.

They way I always handle buissiness in the forces and the way I always was delt with is that the member affected always has is say before any decsision is made and that is because CoC doesn't always know the whole story (even more true when on medical) only the members knows therefore should at least be told that his unit is planning on sending a NON-CONCURENCE messages. Nobody like to learn from somebody else that they were loaded on a course but that they are not anymore. EVERYBODY DESERVE AN EXPLAINATION when it come to a mbr's own career. 

All yours


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## Cansky (6 Mar 2008)

MaxO said:
			
		

> First of all I would like to say that I do not think that I am entitled to a promotion. All I am asking here is other people opinions on the matter. Also I loved the fact that the last 2 poster are assuming/infering  that I feel like i am entitled.
> 
> All I am saying is that it's been done in the past and now. I actually see the messages everyday !
> 
> Also I was loaded on my 5 but taken off it without my knowledge or consent even thought my MELs did not limit my ability to attend in anyway .


When you are a category the T6 is only the time limiting factor.  The other numbers are also extremely important.  So I you are G4T6 O4T6. (Since your previous post only stated T6 I'm using these numbers as an example.) That would preclued you going away from where ever you are and taking any career courses.  As this example is showing  need for regular follow up and usually the medical officer will indicate that you shouldn't leave the area of where you are recieving your medical care.  This ensures that you get some form of continuous care.  Your career shop loads you on the course and you chain of command can have you removed if you are on category.  You do not need to be informed at all of this.


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## MaxO (6 Mar 2008)

I understand what you are saying, but when I say that none of my MELs limit my ability to take the course i actually mean that there is no MEDICAL reason for me not to be able to take the course.

UFS/UFA 
FIT FULL DUTIES ASHORE 

those are my mels now the course is given accross the street from where I work so I am pretty sure i can attend, althought there is a portion in Halifax but like i said my MELs are pretty clear, unless the course is given on the boat which it is not i am fully fit to take it. 

On another note, I am not asking to be the one making the decision I am only asking to be keep inform and that the non concurence have a valid reasoning. I do not blame the CO for making the decision base on the information provided, I blame the people feeding him erroneous information !


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## armyvern (7 Mar 2008)

MaxO said:
			
		

> You seem to think that I am an OS or something, that the feeling I have in the way you are talking to me, but  i guess even if i was it wouldn't change anything.
> 
> They way I always handle buissiness in the forces and the way I always was delt with is that the member affected always has is say before any decsision is made and that is because CoC doesn't always know the whole story (even more true when on medical) only the members knows therefore should at least be told that his unit is planning on sending a NON-CONCURENCE messages. Nobody like to learn from somebody else that they were loaded on a course but that they are not anymore. EVERYBODY DESERVE AN EXPLAINATION when it come to a mbr's own career.
> 
> All yours



And to you,

Here's how it is Bucakroo:

Two weeks ago careers sent an email asking if certain pers in our outfit were "available and eligible" to attend a QL5s which starts this month. "Available" meaning "not on leave, deployed, compassionate, on another course etc". "Eligible" meaning "medically fit (NOT on TCat OR PCat) and QL4s qual'd."

The response: 2 available, 1 not available due to TCat. Period.

Response goes back to Careers. THEN they cut a course loading message, minus the name of the pers who was NOT available due to that TCat. Simply put, member was NEVER course loaded. Even had careers course loaded them onto a message, the member was INELIGIBLE for the course due to the TCat. No foul there. Member does NOT need to be informed, nor do I need their damn permission etc. They are NOT eligible. That's the way it works.

Now, IAW regulations -- the ONLY person who has the authority to remove a member who IS course loaded is the Commanding Officer (note: this does not say member, or even that the member has to be informed), and the Commanding Officer will do so if/when the member is NOT eligible for that course IAW directives.

Last time I checked, no CO had to ask a members permission prior to sending a non-concurance message. You may think that's not fair -- and you can whine all you want about it. But, the fact of the matter is ... "If you are on a Cat -- you are NOT eligible to attend a career course." This should NOT have to be explained to each individual as it is a known FACT of service.

I'd rather suspect that COs have much better things to be doing with their time than by having you grace their presence so that they can tell you "you aren't going on course because the rules say you can't -- hope this doesn't hurt your feelings any", especially when those rules are out there --- and already known.

The COs actions are justified by regulations and they do not need your consent (because you may "feel bad" or think it's "only fair") to enforce those regulations.


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## armyvern (7 Mar 2008)

MaxO said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> those are my mels now the course is given accross the street from where I work so I am pretty sure i can attend, althought there is a portion in Halifax but like i said my MELs are pretty clear, unless the course is given on the boat which it is not i am fully fit to take it.
> 
> On another note, I am not asking to be the one making the decision I am only asking to be keep inform and that the non concurence have a valid reasoning. I do not blame the CO for making the decision base on the information provided, I blame the people feeding him erroneous information !



This is a career course/promotion. TCat makes you ineligible by regulation. Period (I'm quite sure you are NOT pregnant which COULD be treated differently as expalined below) -- regardless of MELs. Period. That is valid. it is justified. There's no one feeding anyone erroneous information -- it just happens to be information that you don't personally like ... that though does not change the facts of the matter -- you are on TCat and that fact affects your promotion and career course eligibility. It is really that simple.


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## MaxO (7 Mar 2008)

PM me and i ll sent you the exact memo done by my boss to actually get the non concurrence from the CO.

Then maybe you can make the judgement call to say it was justified !


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## armyvern (7 Mar 2008)

MaxO said:
			
		

> PM me and i ll sent you the exact memo done by my boss to actually get the non concurrence from the CO.
> 
> Then maybe you can make the judgement call to say it was justified !



You're on a TCat (YOU already said that and therefore BY REGULATION YOU are NOT eligible) -- it's justified whther YOU like it or not. Pretty easy call to make.


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## MaxO (7 Mar 2008)

Make you happy 


AYE AYE ! SKIPPER ! 


AR


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## armyvern (7 Mar 2008)

MaxO said:
			
		

> Make you happy
> 
> 
> AYE AYE ! SKIPPER !
> ...



Now, that makes sense ...  :


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## Gunner98 (7 Mar 2008)

It should be some consolation to you to know:

When/if your TCat is lifted and your supervisors deem you eligible for promotion, your promotion date can be back-dated to your original date of eligibility and you may receive pay back to that original date.


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## MaxO (7 Mar 2008)

Was aware of that but thanks anyway.

I guess I should of went at sea before joinning the navy then I would of know that I can't sail !!! 

LOL  ;D


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## armyvern (7 Mar 2008)

MaxO said:
			
		

> I guess I should of went at sea before joinning the navy then I would of know that I can't sail !!!



Hmmm, sounds like this could turn into a PCat in the making perhaps ...


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## Starlight31 (7 Mar 2008)

Sounds like O4T6 which should go straight to PCAT (After 2nd TCAT unless waived).  Unfit Trade is common for (if I am reading between the lines correctly).  So, not knowing your history at all, Med re-muster? or med release? Stay away from Medic.. lol.. It would suck if your first posting was to a ship!!. 

D Med Pol will determin your PCAT (Most likely O3 UFS/UFA.)  Then to D Mil C, and then they let you know what happens to you.  If your UFS/UFA and this is going a PCAT route, then the CoC has every right not to send you on your 5's, as it will serve the Navy no purpose, and to waste that type of money on you, would not be in the best interest of the Navy, or the CF at this moment.  

Be ready for a MEL to look like something like 1 1 2 2 3 5 (Unless you have glasses, CV issues etc?)

Good luck!!


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## combatbuddha (9 Mar 2008)

I'm in something of the same boat. I've scoured the references and asked the pros.
I have found through discussion with the medical staff and careers that you can be promoted while on PCat, as long as MELs placed on you by the MRB do not restrict your employment. The needs and requirements of the CF come first.
In addition I was advises that if you are on a TCat for something that, in the opinion of the medical staff, will be resolved satisfactorally in short order, the CO on thier advice can decide upon arrival of the promotion instruction to promote you. A hypothetical situation for this would be during recovery and rehab after surgery where the prognosis indicates that the member will be returned to full duties. This means that there has to be a good, effective communication channel between you, your chain of command and the medical staff. Additionally it may mean that we may have to get involved and not let the dice of fate roll against our favour.
I know that this is a contradiction of the Rules and Regulations, but I guess times are changing faster than they can type the new rules out.
If you are merited for promotion and you are under restrictions that will not allow the promotion to be granted immediately, the promotion will be held for you, but will be deferred and back dated. After a year you lose your place and start over.
While your file is being review by a MRB, no promotion til they come to a decision. A P Cat pending can take up to 9 months in some case to be resolved.
Again, this is third hand. 
Eyewitnesses are not reliable and you should do your own research through credible sources.


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## Angry_Johnny (19 Mar 2008)

best of luck.

I find I am on my own in this matter (I am going through this as well).

I just stick to the CDU, case Co-ord if I have questions.  

That would be my advice to ANYONE going through this type of Med Cat situation, I THINK.

I was deployed, while on T-cat....merited...then told I could not be promoted.

This happened although I was not employed within my restrictions, and was infact employed as PER NORMAL...but could not get promoted, because I was on T-cat (this was my first time on any cat, and I thought they "expired" after 6 months....yeah yeah...I know I know...lol).

Hmmmm.....wonder if I could redress the fact that my old unit never employed me as per my restrictions, and that I want my promotion....that would go well I bet...ha ha ha.

I give up....just waiting on the word, to find out how my release is GOING to happen.  At this point, DMED POL could write me up good to go, no restrictions...and I'd put my 6 months in the next day, and I know someone out there is going to ask why I haven't just put it in yet....I might want out, but I am not RETARDED...medical release...non-med release....easy answer!!

not a whine, just a wish for good luck in dealing with something I have dealt with, and am done fighting.


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## Starlight31 (20 Mar 2008)

Angry_Johnny said:
			
		

> best of luck.
> 
> I find I am on my own in this matter (I am going through this as well).
> 
> ...



You bring up interesting points here... First... Lets *all* understand that TCAT's are not a be all and end all.  The are a tool that we use to afford the mbr, and CoC time to heal.  We give a time frame of 3-6 months for a number of reasons.  This only after other options have been used up (Light duties, etc). If a mbr is able to heal before the time frame exp's... outstanding, they come in, and then we remove them. After the 6 months the mbr comes back in for TCAT review (Mbr responsibility), and if no change in condition, and or more time is needed, another 6 months is given.  If a mbr does not come in after their 6 months, the TCAT is still in *EFFECT!!!!*, along with any and all limitations.  Now a 3rd and final TCAT (6 month) can be given, but it would have to be for cases that have been due to delays in surgery dates etc and our approve at higher medical HQ, and or PCAT time with D MED POL, DMCARM, D MIL C, etc... 

Yes you can still deploy on TCAT, this is very common in field units.  Their are many spots in CQ, SQ, HQ, RQ, etc.  Yes, I know that these are busy on deployment, long hours, and hard work. But you as the mbr have the choice at the end of the day if you wanted to go (if it was above your MEL).  If you give an inch, the green beast will want a mile...  We give mbr's  Employment limitations, though at the end of the day..... these are only a recommendation to the CO.  Also unfit uneven ground does not mean no KP duty, and sh** jobs that some crafty people came come up with.  If I state "No prolong standing, > 15 min.  No drill, No parade, No ruck march, No run, No BFT, No inpact sports.  Next day mbr comes in at around 1200, in big pain!!! I thought I covered everything on the chit!!! I forgot no TAC VEST!!! or back then Webbing march, and as it was veiwed as training.... not PT...

Now lastly, Yes med release is a nice thing.... I am clueless on your situation.  What poison's me sadly, is the attitude.  I am sure some is justified, but the "if I don't get it, I am out anyways"  thinking drives me mad.  I don't blame you, it is the system.  We seem to train everyone that way, from as long as I can remember... "stay in at least past %@ years get a med release".   Bothers me, that this is still the thought.  I have troops that think the same way, that I try to work on.. I feel that we, have a ways to go.. 

Good luck Johnny...  WRT to CDU ensure that you research the advise given.  Things change, and they sometimes only know old stuff.. I.E  (if you get hurt overseas your out.... CDS is only guy.. )  just make sure....


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## Angry_Johnny (5 Aug 2008)

Now lastly, Yes med release is a nice thing.... I am clueless on your situation.  What poison's me sadly, is the attitude.  I am sure some is justified, but the "if I don't get it, I am out anyways"  thinking drives me mad.  I don't blame you, it is the system.  We seem to train everyone that way, from as long as I can remember... "stay in at least past %@ years get a med release".   Bothers me, that this is still the thought.  I have troops that think the same way, that I try to work on.. I feel that we, have a ways to go.. 


You don't blame me, that is GOOD!!  You have no clue about my situation, let alone my ATTITUDE in dealing with it....so yeah , YOU SHOULDN'T BLAME me...you have no clue!!

You use quotes to state my attitude, yet I never come even close to saying these words you write:  "if I don't get it, I am out anyways" - thinking

Perhaps I did not make myself clear....my meaning is that if they decide I am totally good to go, or if they PCAT me, I AM RELEASING.  The only reason I am still WAITING OUT is:

No, I am not going to sign a waiver, just to make a point; and have my condition worsen, and make my everyday worsen, and worsen as I age...THAT WOULD BE STUPID.  I have tossed the idea around in my head several times...and you know what, pleasing my EGO..and making a point...will not help me to protect possible care for injuries sustained while in the CF!!

I am not trying to be rude here, just clearing up that MY ATTITUDE is not that of a "stay in X amount of years, and get a pension" - or "give me a medical release or I am out"...think I would have been working for that way before my thirteenth year hit....if that was my way.

stay safe....I'll just stay angry!!

Johnny


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