# Military Compound of Québec, Armoury Lost to Fire



## old medic (5 Apr 2008)

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080404.wfire05/BNStory/National/home?cid=al_gam_mostview


Fire rips through Quebec Armoury

RHÉAL SÉGUIN

Globe and Mail Update

April 4, 2008 at 11:57 PM EDT



> QUEBEC — Military personnel watched in horror last night as flames tore through the home of Canada's oldest French infantry regiment.
> 
> Fire broke out at the Quebec City Armoury, located just outside the walls of the Old City, at around 9:30 p.m., witnesses said, followed by a major explosion.
> 
> ...



http://ago.mobile.globeandmail.com/generated/archive/RTGAM/html/20080405/wfire05.html

Blaze leaves landmark in ruins
RHÉAL SÉGUIN
Globe and Mail Update



> QUEBEC — A Canadian landmark was in ruins early this morning after flames tore through Quebec City's historic armoury.
> 
> The fire broke out at the armoury, located just outside the walls of the Old City, at around 9:30 last night, witnesses said, followed by a major explosion.
> 
> ...



Listed as a major national architectural structure built in 1885, the Musée des Voltigeurs contains one of the largest collections of military accoutrements in Canada. It is located inside the Military Compound of Québec (Manège militaire Voltigeurs de Québec), a true jewel of national heritage, and was built according to architect Eugène-Étienne Taché's plans. The museum presents weapons, uniforms, medals, and models of the Voltigeurs of Québec--a unit of officers which carried more than their own weight in major battles--as well as items of great value, such as the Bell of Vimy and some historic regimental drums.

http://www.quebecregion.com/e/tours.asp?lnCircuitsId=2


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## Yrys (5 Apr 2008)

I've put a thread about it in the french section at : Incendie au Manège militaire

You can see here 7 pictures


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## old medic (5 Apr 2008)

Two photos of lost herritage. 
Second photo is from Wikipedia.


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## Celticgirl (5 Apr 2008)

*Do you think the incident in the article below was the result of anti-military arsonists?*


*Fire destroys major Quebec City landmark*

Updated Sat. Apr. 5 2008 8:06 AM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

A Quebec City landmark has been heavily damaged by fire.

The armoury, built in 1884, broke out in flames at about 9:30 p.m. on Friday evening.

Two hours later, much of the building had collapsed. At least eight fire trucks and dozens of firefighters had been dispatched to fight the blaze.

The armoury had provided a home to Les Voltigeurs, a Canadian Forces reserve unit and Canada's oldest French infantry unit. In addition, it has housed a museum containing First and Second World War memorabilia, along with artifacts of the Riel Rebellion.

The building also contained Canada's largest suspended wood ceiling.

Some articles were reportedly rescued, and military officials hope some of the building can be saved.

The armoury had been scheduled to host events to mark Quebec City's 400th anniversary and had been undergoing renovations. No cause has been determined yet.



Link: http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080405/armoury_fire_080405/20080405?hub=Canada


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## Franko (5 Apr 2008)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> *Do you think the incident in the article below was the result of anti-military arsonists?*



If it were, they'd have to come forward and claim responsibility to get their message out.

I believe that it's because the place was under renovation and something was left on by one of the workers that the building went up.

Regards


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## Celticgirl (5 Apr 2008)

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> If it were, they'd have to come forward and claim responsibility to get their message out.



Not necessarily. No one has yet (as far as I know, anyway) claimed responsibility for the graffiti on the peacekeeping monument. I guess we'll see when the cause of the fire is determined and if incidents like these keep happening.


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## McG (5 Apr 2008)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> Not necessarily. No one has yet (as far as I know, anyway) claimed responsibility for the graffiti on the peacekeeping monument.


In that case, the graffiti got the message out.  There is no message in the unfortunate burning of an historic building unless someone sends out a message saying "this is why we did it."

... there is always the possibility that there was no message & only an angry attempt to "stick it" to the military.  I suspect this was an accident though.


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## Mad Medic (5 Apr 2008)

Ironically, workmen were supposed to install a fire sprinkler system as part of armoury renovations!!

Also, the media has so far made no mention of another famous Canadian infantry regiment that was formerly housed in this armoury.

Quebec City once had an Anglo (yes Virginia, there were and still are Anglos in Quebec City) infantry battalion, the 8th Battalion formed in 1862 at the same time as the French-speaking 9th Battalion.  Around 1900, the battalions took the names 8th and 9th Regiment, and around 1920 the 8th was renamed the Royal Rifles of Canada, while the 9th became the oft-mentioned Voltigeurs de Quebec.

The Royal Rifles were one of two battalions (Winnipeg Rifles) who were shipped off to Hong Kong late 1941 to meet their tragic fate following the Japanese invasion. Survivors of the ill-fated battle were held for years in captivity under cruel conditions.

It is my understanding the Voltigeurs’ fine museum was housed in the former Royal Rifles’ officer’s mess.

I was told that in the 1862 when both battalions were taken on strength, a contingent of Scots, not wanting to associate with the English 8th Battalion, went over to the Franco 9th Battalion and formed the Scot’s Company (No. 5 Coy “Highland” under the command of Captain J. Cook Thompson and Lieutenant James Gibb). 

Way back in the mid 1960s, while on my first summer camp with the cadets at Valcartier, my section corporal was from the Royal Rifles (I still have a picture of him)! 

I managed this morning to get on air on Quebec City’s French-language Radio-Canada station during their history program to set the record straight.

Soldiers from the Voltigeurs managed to save their colours from destruction – bravo!!!

Mike

The Mad Medic


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## BernDawg (5 Apr 2008)

They saved the colours.  Well done boys!  

It truly is a shame.  That much history in one place lost so quickly.


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## George Wallace (5 Apr 2008)

Thanks Mad Medic

Quebec City has quite an interesting military past.  This is only one of the English Units to be raised in the City.  The Royal Canadian Dragoons were formed in La Citadel.

Having visited this Armoury and the Museum there, I find this a very sad day for Canada's military heritage.  I only hope that the firefighters were able to save portions of the collection housed in the building.  It was a quite significant collection, and my hopes are, as someone mentioned before, that they had moved a large part of it out for the renovations.  

I hope that the Federal, Provincial and Municipal Governments can come together in agreements to rebuild saving as much of the facade and original building as possible in the process.


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## McG (5 Apr 2008)

I will second your sentiment George.  Quebec city is an incredible looking place, and this is an unfortunate loss in what may be this continent's most historically rich city.


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## BernDawg (5 Apr 2008)

They won't be able to truly asses the damage for days maybe weeks yet but if the stone and mortar wasn't too badly heat stressed it should be salvageable.


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## karl28 (5 Apr 2008)

I was sadden to here about this great historic loss of history . But at the same time I am just glad that no one was seriously hurt or killed in the fire .


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## Douke (5 Apr 2008)

As a member of the Voltigeurs, the news threw me to the floor... The military compound was an incredible working place and one of the most beautiful building of the city. I just came back from the site and the guys saved the colors... A big hooah to Sgt. Gagnon, Cpt. Déry and Maj. Bedard for the bravery and presence of mind. They say they heard a kind of explosion just before the fire started... The roof and ceiling of the drill hall were under repairs (wich were, ironically, mostly finished), some worker probably left something over there that caught on fire.

As for the "activist" option, it is not my job to rule it out, but it is very unlikely. The compound is located in the downtown of quebec, in a very crowded area, it would be very difficult to do something big without being seen. Also, it is permanently locked, and from the outside, all you can get in contact with is stone walls and copper roof, not the best material to start a fire.

The drill hall and central portion of the building is mostly destroyed, but firemen managed to mostly keep the fire out of the west wing (museum) and the east wing (officers and ncos messes, hq etc.). 


Wouldn't want to be in the boots of the commander this morning, as he have to transform himself into telephone man to find a backup solution. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger ! I hope we can get back on our feet from this one quickly.
_
Force A Superbe, Mercy A Foible._


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## Mad Medic (5 Apr 2008)

BernDawg said:
			
		

> They won't be able to truly asses the damage for days maybe weeks yet but if the stone and mortar wasn't too badly heat stressed it should be salvageable.



Quebec City's newly-elected and very dynamic mayor just announced from his tour in France that with the facade of the building relatively intact, he is hoping the organizers of Quebec City's 400th anniversary can rapidly put together a project in the style of the artist Christo, who amazingly wraps up buildings, monuments, etc.   Recall that Quebec City's Manege Militaire is the focal point of the annual military music festival.  He has already been in contact with the federal minister of heritage (who's riding just happens to be in Quebec City) lobbying for a rapid restoration of the building.

The Voltigeurs have a great band and I'm not sure if their instruments were lost in the fire, but a band spokesperson just reported on the radio that a concert to be held in the city this evening is still a go.  They often work in hand with the band of the R22R.


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## armyvern (5 Apr 2008)

Douke said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> The drill hall and central portion of the building is mostly destroyed, but firemen managed to mostly keep the fire out of the west wing (museum) and the east wing (officers and ncos messes, hq etc.).
> 
> ...



Glad to hear that it is possible that some of the historic and priceless treasures may have escaped a fiery fate.

As to your Regiment -- Look up, look forward, and let your proud traditions continue.


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## Douke (5 Apr 2008)

> The Voltigeurs have a great band and I'm not sure if their instruments were lost in the fire, but a band spokesperson just reported on the radio that a concert to be held in the city this evening is still a go.  They often work in hand with the band of the R22R.



I am not a member of the music, but from what I understand they keep their instruments at home. They are a great band and always make us proud. They show the regiments spirit of getting back on our feet quickly by continuiing their normal duties. Great job guys!

_Force A Superbe, Mercy A Foible._


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## BernDawg (5 Apr 2008)

It's heart-warming to hear about the band   and that the powers that be are already pushing for reconstruction & preservation of the building and site.


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## big_castor (5 Apr 2008)

Some pictures that give an idea of the destruction can be found here


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## Mad Medic (5 Apr 2008)

DeweyDecimalSystem said:
			
		

> Some pictures that give an idea of the destruction can be found here



Some spectacular and dramatic shots here that leave no doubt as to the severity, intensity and magnitude of this fire.

Also, kudos to the photographer for getting a couple of aerial shots.


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## Nfld Sapper (5 Apr 2008)

Statement Link

Statement
Fire Destroys the Manège Militaire in Québec City
April 5, 2008

The Honourable Josée Verner, Minister of Canadian Heritage, Status of Women and Official Languages, and Minister responsible for the Québec region, and the Honourable Peter Gordon MacKay, Minister of National Defence and Minister of the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, issued the following statement today in response to the destruction by fire of Québec City’s historic drill hall, the Manège Militaire.

“I was stunned to hear the sad news that the Manège Militaire in Québec City was destroyed by fire during the evening of April 4, 2008,” said Minister Verner. 

“Built in 1887, the Manège Militaire is one of the most important historic buildings in Québec City. It was declared a national historic site in 1986. The Manège Militaire housed the oldest French-speaking unit of the Canadian army, the Voltigeurs de Québec.”

Ministers Verner and MacKay noted that they were saddened by the news which affected one of the important elements of Québec City’s history. They also wished to underline the remarkable efforts of the brave firefighters who tackled the fire. 

“We are greatly relieved that no one was injured in the blaze,” added Minister MacKay. “We will ensure that the Voltigeurs are able to continue their activities and remain one of the jewels in the history of the French-Canadian military.” 

“This building, nationally recognized for its architectural importance, is of inestimable historic value to the heritage of Québec City.” 

-30-

Information:

Jean-Nicolas Marchand 

Office of the Minister of Canadian Heritage, Status of Women and Official Languages 

418 648-2430 

 Dan Dugas 

Director of Communications Office of the Minister of National Defence and Minister of the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency 

613 996-3100


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## geo (6 Apr 2008)

Mad Medic said:
			
		

> Soldiers from the Voltigeurs managed to save their colours from destruction – bravo!!!
> 
> Mike
> 
> The Mad Medic


Haven't a clue of what colours you would be talking about.  les Voltigeurs de Québec is a Rifle Regiment and does not have a stand of colours.  There exists a number of camp flags used by the regiment in their bivouacs but, no colours.


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## geo (6 Apr 2008)

Mad Medic said:
			
		

> The Voltigeurs have a great band and I'm not sure if their instruments were lost in the fire, but a band spokesperson just reported on the radio that a concert to be held in the city this evening is still a go.  They often work in hand with the band of the R22R.


Most reserve musicians have their own instruments and do not depend on the CF.  With a musical conservatory at Laval University, positions on the Voltigeur band are highly sought after and auditions are required to select the cream of the crop.  Other than the drums, most musicians will use their own.... except in inclement weather when the rain could damage the finish...


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## geo (6 Apr 2008)

I should point out that, while the Voltigeurs were located in this armoury, they were not alone.  The 10th Field Squadron of 35 CER were also located on the same premisses.  35 CER RHQ moved out something like 2 years ago


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## big_castor (6 Apr 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Haven't a clue of what colours you would be talking about.  les Voltigeurs de Québec is a Rifle Regiment and does not have a stand of colours.  There exists a number of camp flags used by the regiment in their bivouacs but, no colours.



They rescued a flag that was given to the Voltigeurs by the Société St-Jean-Baptiste in 1885.



			
				geo said:
			
		

> I should point out that, while the Voltigeurs were located in this armoury, they were not alone.



And an Air Cadet Squadron (629 Kiwanis-Sillery)


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## geo (6 Apr 2008)

a SSJB donated flag is not a stand of colours.
SSJB would never provide a Queen's or King's colour


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## armyvern (6 Apr 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> a SSJB donated flag is not a stand of colours.
> SSJB would never provide a Queen's or King's colour



I think we all realize that he was not to actual "colours" --- but the significance of that flag to them is great, as is it's historical significance to militaria and to the Unit. They saved it. Good, actually awesome, on them.

It's in one's heart -- go for the flags ... go for the colours.


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## geo (6 Apr 2008)

Don't get mewrong, I think that any heirloom recovered from the blazing building is miraculous.  The 130+ year iold wood ceiling in the drill hall was gorgeous.... and probably an accident looking for a place to happen.  With a little bit of luck and a lot of help, I hope to visit the rebuilt armoury before I retire.

I would suggest that those old armouries should be inspected for fire suppression systems... lest this happen again in some other part of the country.


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## sandyson (7 Apr 2008)

Does any one know if the Royal Rifles memorial plaque was salvaged?  
Sandy (Ex SherH whose Guidon has the RR distinction)


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## geo (7 Apr 2008)

They are picking thru the building today.  It'll take a while to figure out what is lost..... 
where was the plaque located in the building?

Note that we've been in contact with the BOR staff.  Pers records are apparently intact - though a little soggy.

More than 80% of museum artifacts were recovered... till things can be dried out properly, things are stored in a reefer truck.


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## Douke (7 Apr 2008)

> Haven't a clue of what colours you would be talking about.  les Voltigeurs de Québec is a Rifle Regiment and does not have a stand of colours.  There exists a number of camp flags used by the regiment in their bivouacs but, no colours.



Geo, what is refered as regimental colours is the drums of the "drums and bugles". Since rifle regiments were not carrying any flag, their battle honors were carried on their head dress at first, then on their drums. In 1981 the drums were consacrated and are since then considered as the regiment's colors, even if it is unorthodox (we are the only regiment in the world whose colors are on their drums). The flag was saved when the fire started to be under control, with the help of firemen they deployed a ladder to be able to reach the mast wich was located over the front doors of the compund. They also saved a flag the Voltigeurs were carying around as bivouac flag at the Boers War from the museum.



> I would suggest that those old armouries should be inspected for fire suppression systems... lest this happen again in some other part of the country.



The fire sprinkler was turned off for repairs for a few day after reparations on the roof structure and wooden ceiling... Murphy's law at it's finest.



> The 10th Field Squadron of 35 CER were also located on the same premisses.



The 10th Field Squadron, if I am not mistaken, is now named 35th Regiment, as they received the regiment's status. They are in the process of moving out of the military compound for their own installations, wich are currently under construction (their HQ is already moved out, only the garrison and QM are left).

Douke


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## 1feral1 (7 Apr 2008)

Mad Medic said:
			
		

> Ironically, workmen were supposed to install a fire sprinkler system as part of armoury renovations!!



No sprinklers?

one would have thought this would have been done years ago, considering the historic value and the priceless items the building housed.

Truly a tragedy with a loss of such items.


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## geo (7 Apr 2008)

Wes... 
yes, the sprinkler system is / was tehre all right.... it was just down for repairs at the time the fire happened.
all in all, the dedication of unit members and firemen who scrambled up ladders and thru windows to recover priceless heirlooms saved the day.... thank god no one got hurt... we owe the city's fire service a huge tip of the hand for their masterful work.... Have been told that the unit's orderly room was spared 99% of the smoke and water damage... who would have thought.

Douke,
Yes, was talking to the nice folks at 35 Bde HQ today.... in fact, several times.
Immediate plans are to relocate the units to either the Citadelle, St Malo Armoury (55 Fd Amb / 55 Svc Bn) or some other suitable building around Quebec City... might as well make ourselves comfy... it'll be a while.


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## Nfld Sapper (7 Apr 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> I should point out that, while the Voltigeurs were located in this armoury, they were not alone.  The *10th Field Squadron of 35 CER * were also located on the same premisses.  35 CER RHQ moved out something like 2 years ago





			
				Douke said:
			
		

> Geo, what is refered as regimental colours is the drums of the "drums and bugles". Since rifle regiments were not carrying any flag, their battle honors were carried on their head dress at first, then on their drums. In 1981 the drums were consacrated and are since then considered as the regiment's colors, even if it is unorthodox (we are the only regiment in the world whose colors are on their drums). The flag was saved when the fire started to be under control, with the help of firemen they deployed a ladder to be able to reach the mast wich was located over the front doors of the compund. They also saved a flag the Voltigeurs were carying around as bivouac flag at the Boers War from the museum.
> 
> The fire sprinkler was turned off for repairs for a few day after reparations on the roof structure and wooden ceiling... Murphy's law at it's finest.
> 
> ...




Douke,

what you are calling the 35th Regiment is 35 Combat Engineer Regiment which was 10 Engineer Squadron and formally 10 Field Engineer Squadron


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## Douke (7 Apr 2008)

Exactly, sorry for scraping the name, my english translations are so-so and my knowledge of recent sapper happenings too...

As for relocalisations possibilities, I think it pretty much sums it up. The only other places I could see is some empty building in Valcartier, if there are any left with the right facilities, or the navy reserve facility at the Pointe-a-Carcy. But both of them seems less than ideal... The citadel looks mostly empty these days and would in my opinion be the best place to transfer to, but St-Malo's armoury is pretty close with very recent installations and possibilities for closer cooperations with reserve service units. My only point is that it is already rather crowded... Not like I have my word to say in that kind of matters anyway  

Douke


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## geo (7 Apr 2008)

10 Field Squdron is one of the sub-units of 35 CER.  (Unfortunately, I don't know the number of the squadrons that have been assigned to that unit.  They have reactivated a Sqn number from an Engineer unit that used to operate in the Thetford Mines area.... so it isn't 11, 12 or 13 .....


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## Nfld Sapper (7 Apr 2008)

Douke said:
			
		

> Exactly, sorry for scraping the name, my english translations are so-so and my knowledge of recent sapper happenings too...
> 
> As for relocalisations possibilities, I think it pretty much sums it up. The only other places I could see is some empty building in Valcartier, if there are any left with the right facilities, or the navy reserve facility at the Pointe-a-Carcy. But both of them seems less than ideal... The citadel looks mostly empty these days and would in my opinion be the best place to transfer to, but St-Malo's armoury is pretty close with very recent installations and possibilities for closer cooperations with reserve service units. My only point is that it is already rather crowded... Not like I have my word to say in that kind of matters anyway
> 
> Douke



Douke, 

you could have also left it as 35 RGC   most people here would know what it stood for.


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## sandyson (8 Apr 2008)

Further to the plaque in memorial to the Royal Rifles; the brass was in the drill hall up high, central on an end wall..if I remember correctly.
Thanks--Sandy


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## Douke (8 Apr 2008)

Then I can assure you it has been destroyed in the fire... unfortunatly there is nothing left in that partof the building, that is presumably where the fire started.

Douke


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## geo (8 Apr 2008)

... am certain that the museum would have photographs of the plaque and, when they rebuild - we can only hope that they go to the trouble of reproducing the plaque in honour of the RRC and their contribution to the defense of Canada AND Hong Kong.


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## Douke (8 Apr 2008)

The plaque definitly needs to be rebuilt, for the memories of brave soldiers from Quebec who died in a forgotten part of WW2. The defense of Hong Kong was brutal and hopeless, even more since they had given all their vehicles for the US advance in the Phillipines, but they still fought for days and days. Since 1965, we are very proud to count their history of bravery and honour among ours. I would be crushed if the rebuilding of this plaque was forgotten.


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## Yrys (8 Apr 2008)

Douke said:
			
		

> The fire sprinkler was turned off for repairs for a few day after reparations on the roof structure and wooden ceiling... Murphy's law at it's finest.



In a french article they are saying that there weren't any sprinkler : "Pas encore de gicleurs en 2008" .

Le chantier n’était pas surveillé



> Sur ce point, le militaire précise simplement qu’il «faut fonctionner à l’intérieur de budgets, qu’il y avait d’autres manèges au pays sur la liste et que la priorité était cette fois donnée aux Voltigeurs».



The military man that was answering questions seems to imply that Québec isn't the only place without sprinklers, it was it's turn on the priority list to instal some.
I hope the next ones on that list learned something from it, and add security that the contractors don't seem to have put in place...


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## geo (8 Apr 2008)

Yrs... you should not take everything that the media is publishing for $$Cash.

I should point out that, I am surprised that there was no Cadet or Reserve training in the armoury on a Friday night.  All armouries I have been associated with are busy on Friday nights... 

At present there are no armouries that have personnel on staff 24/7 - 365 days of the year.
Before the installation of elaborate alarm systems & secure arms rooms we had commissionaires 24/7 365 days per year but, as labour costs went up - it wasn't a viable alternative.

With respect to "chantier pas surveillé" that is not 100% true.  During the day, while the work was being done by the plumbers, there was "surveillance" but, once the plumbers and welders had left for the weekend, so did the clerical staff.


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## Douke (8 Apr 2008)

Exactly.

And as for the training, there was training going on, but all the troops were at BFC Valcartier.


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## exgunnertdo (8 Apr 2008)

Douke said:
			
		

> Geo, what is refered as regimental colours is the drums of the "drums and bugles". Since rifle regiments were not carrying any flag, their battle honors were carried on their head dress at first, then on their drums. In 1981 the drums were consacrated and are since then considered as the regiment's colors, even if it is unorthodox (we are the only regiment in the world whose colors are on their drums).


I do know that the Royal Winnipeg Rifles colours are their drums.  Not sure about other Rifle Regiments.


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## Douke (8 Apr 2008)

All rifles regiments carry their battle honours on their drums, but to my knowledge we are the only one that had his drums officially consacrated as colours (I might be wrong).

Douke


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## Blindspot (9 Apr 2008)

According to British tradition, Rifle regiments _do not_ have Colours; kind of goes against the concealment and camouflage ethos with flags waving around the battlefield infront of line regiments. Battle Honours are emblazoned on drums. 

However, I won't presume to disagree about Les Voltigeurs de Québec as to whether or not they have Colours.


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## armyvern (9 Apr 2008)

Their website is even confusing me. Perhaps I am losing myself in attempting to translate it.

http://www.voltigeursdequebec.net/index2.html

After explaining exactly what Blindspot has noted below,

Para two seems to me to end with an "although emblazoned with battle Honours, drums are not to be _considered_ "Regimental Colours"."

Yet, the 3rd para says: "However, in 1981, the drums were consecrated and since then are _considered_ to be the colours of the regiment."

I'm obviously missing something here with my feeble attempts at parlez-vousing.

Can someone bilingual actually translate this out properly??  :-[


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## Yrys (9 Apr 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I'm obviously missing something here with my feeble attempts at parlez-vousing.
> 
> Can someone bilingual actually translate this out properly??  :-[



I can try, no guarantee, considering my lack of military knowledge (vocabulary)

Which page exactly ? Clairons et Tambours ? I'll do a cut and space in an automatic translator, and will correct it

WORK IS STOP




> Il faut d’abord préciser ici que les régiments de carabiniers n’ont pas de « Couleurs Régimentaires » à proprement parler. Les drapeaux consacrés représentant les Couleurs de l’unité pour l’infanterie et le blindé ne furent jamais portés par les régiments de carabiniers. La fonction originelle de ces drapeaux était d’être facilement visible et reconnaissable et ainsi servir de point de ralliement pour les troupes. Ceci ne correspondait pas du tout au besoin de camouflage des carabiniers ni à leurs tâches d’escarmouche et de reconnaissance en petits groupes éloignés.





> It is necessary to clarify at first here that the rifles regiments have no "Regimental Colours" strictly speaking. Dedicated flags representing the Colors of the unit for the infantry and the armored  were never worn by the rifles regiments. The original function  of these flags was to be easily visible and recognizable and so to serve as assembly point for the troops. This corresponded in no way to the need of camouflage of the riflemen or to their tasks of skirmish and recognition in small remote groups.






> Les unités d’infanterie de ligne utilisaient également leurs drapeaux afin d’y afficher leurs honneurs de bataille. Les unités de carabiniers portaient quant à elleS ces honneurs sur leur insigne de coiffure, puis sur leurs tambours. Toutefois, comme mentionné précédemment, les tambours des carabiniers, même blasonnés d’honneurs de batailles, ne sont pas des « couleurs régimentaires ».





> The infantry units  also used their flags to show their battle Honours . The riflemen units  wear, as for them, these Honors on their hat badge, then their drums. However, as mentioned previously, the drums of the riflemen, even emblazoned with battle Honours, are not  " Regimental Colors ".





> Notons ici que les Voltigeurs de Québec ont longtemps respecté la tradition des carabiniers de porter au moins un honneur de bataille sur l’insigne de coiffure. Il s’agissait de la date 1885 qui rappelait la campagne du Nord-ouest, premier honneur de bataille du régiment. L’inscription 1885 fut enlevé de l’insigne dans les années 1980 car certains disaient que cette date portait à confusion avec la date de fondation du régiment, soit 1862. De plus, en 1981, les tambours furent consacrés et sont depuis ce moment, considérés comme étant les couleurs du régiment.





> Let us note here that the Quebec Voltigeurs  respected for a long time the tradition of the riflemen to wear at least a battle Honours on the hat badge. It was about the date 1885 which reminded the campaign of the Northwest, the first battle Honours of the regiment. The inscription 1885 was removed on the badge in the 1980s because some people said that this date was confused with the date of the foundation of the regiment, which is 1862. Furthermore, in 1981, drums were dedicated and are since this moment, consider as being the Colors of the regiment.



I would say that the drums are not official regimental colours, but since dedication, by custom, are considered being it.


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## armyvern (9 Apr 2008)

Yrys said:
			
		

> I can try, no guarantee, considering my lack of military knowledge (vocabulary)
> 
> Which page exactly ? Clairons et Tambours ?



I thought that I did link to the specific page:

Your above, then "Explication des Couleurs"

"Le terme « Couleurs régimentaires » "


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## Yrys (9 Apr 2008)

Does "hat badge" for "insigne de coiffure" make sense ?


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## Douke (9 Apr 2008)

Ok I am bilingual, I just came back form a long guard shift of the ruins of the military compound so I will just explain basicly, and can translate it integrally later tomorow if needed.

In the first paragraph, they are talking about rifles regiments in general (by the way, carabinier = rifle, as weird as it sounds since rifleman usually translates as fusilier). They say that rifles regiments carry their battle honors on their drums, but that they do not constitute regimental colours officially (colours have to be consacrated as such). In the third paragraph, they are talking specifically about Les Voltigeurs, and are saying that the regiment had their drums consacrated as colours in 1981. So rifles regiments do not have colours because flags were not consequent with the concealment tactics of rifles, but Les Voltigeurs do have colours since 1981, because their drums were consacrated. So we are the only unit in the world using drums as colours (even though other rifles regiment have their battle honors on their drums) and the only rifles regiment to have colours. As to why we were awarded that kind of honor, I honestly have no idea yet... I hope this is clearer then my previous post, I am also struggling with my English  .

Douke


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## George Wallace (9 Apr 2008)

No, you are not the only Regiment to have Drums as Colours.  There is a ceremony, Stacking of the Drums, that is carried out by many regiments.  This would be done for the Consecration of the Drums, and also to make a base for the Colours in other units that have flags, standards or guidons as Colours.  The RCD Stack the Drums when they consecrate their new Guidon, for example.


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## armyvern (9 Apr 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> No, you are not the only Regiment to have Drums as Colours.  There is a ceremony, Stacking of the Drums, that is carried out by many regiments.  This would be done for the Consecration of the Drums, and also to make a base for the Colours in other units that have flags, standards or guidons as Colours.  The RCD Stack the Drums when they consecrate their new Guidon, for example.



I think he's speaking strictly to rifle regiments George. ??


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## Edward Campbell (9 Apr 2008)

As briefly as I can:

+ Rifle Regiments do *not* have colours because, _circa_ 1800, they were skirmishers and a stand of colours would have defeated the purpose;

+ Rifle Regiments had (some still have?) their battle honours on their cap badges;

+ Some (most? all?) Rifle Regiments carry their battle honours on their silver drums, when are then escorted on parade rather like colours; but

+ Many regiments do things at _*drumhead*_ services where ordinary band drums are stacked to form a makeshift alter.

So some drums are _de facto_ 'colours' because hey have the regiment's battle honours emblazoned on them; other drums are just that but they are, now and again, used as makeshift alters on parade.


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## geo (9 Apr 2008)

George...
Stacking of the drums is a ceremony whereby a unit would create an altar upon which they could proceed with a religious service that required a platform.... typically the consecation of colours - but not necessarily exclusive to that end.

WRT drums as colours.... ALL Rifle regiments use their drums, emblazoned with their battle honours as a FORM OF COLOURS - but they are not considered, per the various ceremonial manuals, "regimental colours".  That the Voltigeurs decided to have their drums consecrated creates a bit of a wrinkle in the ointment - not sure what DHH will make of that.

WRT Voltigeurs, Fusiliers, Carabiniers, etc... thing that Douke brought up - it's a bit of a problem with the terminology that is / was used in both languages.  
FRENCH                              ENGLISH
Voltigeurs & Carabiniers are Riflemen
Fusiliers                        are Light Infantrymen


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## Michael OLeary (9 Apr 2008)

While a unit may treat its drums as their Colours, that in itself does not imply that they have such an official status.  Can anyone provide an update to this reference, or provide another officially published (i.e., CF) reference regarding any unit's drums being accorded the status of Colours?:

THE HONOURS, FLAGS AND HERITAGE STRUCTURE OF THE CANADIAN FORCES 
pp 5-1-3



> c. ...(*rifle regiments have no Colours as their original tactical role precluded them from carrying and using Colours on the battlefield*). (See Note below.)
> 
> NOTE
> 
> *The drums of rifle and voltigeur regiments are not Colours*, although they may be emblazoned with battle honours and honorary distinctions. Drums shall not be paid compliments. (See also Chapter 4, Annex A.)


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## geo (9 Apr 2008)

Michael... As I stated in my last post - while drums are NOT traditionaly considered COULOURS in the traditional sense of colours, Rifle units (aka Voltigeurs) have traditionaly emblazoned on their drums, their Battle Honours - ( like most Infantry regiments have done ).

The fact that the Voltigeurs went out and had their Drums consecrated is a wrinkle that DHH will take considerable time to digest and comment upon - probably to the negative - but, the Unit has done so & they treat them as such.... so common courtessey would be to "make way for the Colours" if they happen to come your way.


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## Douke (9 Apr 2008)

Honestly, I coud not find written documentation within the CF on this subject. That kind of lore is passed down by the regiment's seniors. The best I could do is this :

Link :
http://www.cyberpresse.ca/article/20080405/CPACTUALITES/80405083/0/CPACTUALITES



> Le sauvetage des couleurs du Régiment, vendredi soir, en plein incendie, est ce qui réconforte son ancien commandant, le lieutenant-colonel Yvan Lachance. Un adjudant-chef et quelques soldats sont entrés dans le manège et ont grimpé au troisième étage avec les pompiers pour récupérer les couleurs, a-t-il relaté.
> «Les couleurs c’est sacré pour un Régiment, c’est son honneur. Les couleurs priment sur le drapeau national, car elles représentent les soldats qui ont donné leur vie. Même la Reine doit les saluer. Les couleurs des Voltigeurs, le premier régiment francophone, sont sur des tambours, et non sur un drapeau. Il y en a cinq au total et ces tambours ont été sauvés vendredi.»
> Selon lui, les Voltigeurs sont le seul régiment au monde dont les couleurs sont gravées sur un tambour. De plus, le drapeau du Régiment, situé entre les deux tours principales du Manège, a échappé aux flammes et a été récupéré fièrement par un jeune soldat.



Traduction at the best of my abilities :



> The saving of the regiment's colours, friday night, during the fire, is what is comforting it's old commander, lieutenant colonel Yvan Lachance. A chief warrant officer and a few soldiers went in the compound and went to the third floor with the firemen to save the coulours, he was telling.
> "The colours are sacred for a regiment, they are it's honor. The colors precede the national flag, because they represent the soldiers who gave their life. Even the Queen must salute them. The Voltigeur's colors, the first French speaking regiment in Canada, are on drums, and not on a flag. There are five of them and they were saved friday."
> According to him, the Voltigeurs are the only regiment in the world whom colors are engraved on a drum. A regimental flag, situated among the two principal towers of the compound, was proudly saved from flames by a young soldier.



Granted I would not win a lawsuit with that kind of proof, but it is at least indicative that it is highly present in regiment's lore even at the highest level. I would be surprised ( and shocked   ) if it was not true.

Douke


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## geo (9 Apr 2008)

The Cyberpresse extract is basicaly reporting / repeating what has been told to the reporter... nothing more nothing less.
It says that the regimental flag that was flying between the twin towers was brought down by a young soldier - they are refering to the "camp flag" which - pert much every military unit has.

With respect to the drums as Colours - the reporter is saying what we have all said... the Unit treats it's drums as colours and colours are ... yada, yada, yada... The set of five drums were salvaged / saved from the flames.  The Voltigeurs is the oldest (first) french reserve unit still in existence....


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## Michael OLeary (9 Apr 2008)

Douke said:
			
		

> Granted I would not win a lawsuit with that kind of proof, but it is at least indicative that it is highly present in regiment's lore even at the highest level. I would be surprised ( and shocked   ) if it was not true.



And therein lies the real problem we are discussing.  In many regiments, including my own, instances of long favoured regimental lore are upheld to the point where some lose the understanding that regimental lore and regimental fact may be different.  I certainly see nothing wrong with the unit treating its drums _as Colours_, but saying they _are Colours_ is a very different thing.  Sometimes regimental education and understanding have to be reinvented to promote a healthy understanding of regimental lore and its place in a regiment's history.


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## Douke (9 Apr 2008)

I will concede this possibility and the fact that I am unable to discuss this further with my current knowledge. 

In the light of the current subject though, the simple fact that we consider those drums our colours and treat them as such is the only thing wich matters to evaluate the importance of the saving.

Douke


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## geo (9 Apr 2008)

well said Douke.

The drums / colours were saved from the ravages of the fire.

While people fight over who will build / fix the armoury, for how much and over how long.... the Voltigeurs will continue to parade in the streets of Quebec City, their bayonnets fixed and the drums beating.


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## davidk (9 Apr 2008)

There's a picture on the Voltigeurs website showing the colours/drums being saluted as they pass, fourth from the top.

http://www.voltigeursdequebec.net/pic_browser/browse_fetes_2005.html


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## PO2FinClk (9 Apr 2008)

Yrys, to add to your post quoting the Voltigeur's website:


> Les tambours actuels des Voltigeurs de Québec ont fait leur apparition au Manège militaire à l’été 1980. Il semblerait que le coût de ces instruments avait de quoi effrayer le plus impassible des commandants mais que le colonel honoraire de l’époque, monsieur Claude Pratte su apaiser toutes les craintes. Bénis le 29 août 1981 par le cardinal Maurice Roy, ces tambours furent remis au Régiment par le Gouverneur-général du Canada alors en fonction, l’honorable Edward Schreyer. C'est à ce moment que les tambours furent consacrés.


I can read enough to understand it, but not to translate it.


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## geo (9 Apr 2008)

> The drums currently being used by the Voltigeurs de Québec made their first appearance in the summer of 1980.  It would appear that the cost of acquisition for these instruments was enough to scare the most unflappable of CO but the Honorary Colonel at the time, Mr Claude Pratte managed to calm his fears.  Blessed(?) on 29 august 1981 by Cardinal Maurice Roy, these drums were presented to the Regiment by the then serving Governor General of Canada, the Honorable Edward Schreyer.  It was at this time that the drums were consecrated.



translation of your passage PO2Finclk


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## Blindspot (9 Apr 2008)

I imagine the term "Voltigeur" lost a bit of its original, traditional French meaning when applied to the British regimental system. Originally, Voltigeurs were an elite company drawn from the chasseur (fusilier) companies and marched to the left of the grendadier (or carabinier in light infantry) company in a battalion. While in the British system, the Rifles were raised as the 95th and 60th Regiments.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suppose that the Voltigeurs as an organic part of a line (or light) French infantry regiment, marched under Colours while British Rifle Regiments had their own tradition of not using Colours (among other traditions). 

_Edited for spelling._


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## Yrys (9 Apr 2008)

Incendie au Manège militaire 

Question today on  www.tva.canoe.com :

"Devrait-on reconstruire le Manège militaire de Québec?"  ("Does the military compound at Québec should be reconstruct ? " )

Votes are finish, final results :

"*Oui :  70%*
  Non:  30%

Nombre de votes: 6284   "


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## Greymatters (10 Apr 2008)

Very pro-military, but probably reflects support for preserving their military heritage, not necessarily support for current operations...


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## timma (11 Apr 2008)

I for one hope they rebuild the  magnificent armouries and it's nice to see that 70% of the people surveyed want it rebuilt. As well , it's good that 80% of the items in the regimental museum were saved.


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## geo (12 Apr 2008)

Morre than 80%... closer to 90% if I believe the reports coming in from 35CBG


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## Blackadder1916 (3 Oct 2008)

Something new related to this story.

*Regiment sues Defence over armoury fire*
Canwest News Service Friday, October 3, 2008 Published: 2:30 am

QUEBEC - Members of the country's oldest French-Canadian infantry regiment have launched a lawsuit against their employer, the Department of National Defence, seeking $250,000 in damages following the fire that destroyed the landmark Quebec City armoury last April.

Les Voltigeurs de Quebec regiment and its insurance company, Aviva, blame DND for failing "to secure the armoury that, according to public information, was not equipped with a fire-protection system at the time of the blaze."

The historic drill hall, built in 1887, was burned to the ground on April 5, with only the brick facade and two towers still standing, facing the Quebec national assembly.

The lawsuit also alleges that DND "knowingly wiped out the fire scene" before the insurance company expert could examine it.


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## dangerboy (3 Oct 2008)

Can a Unit sue DND?  It just seems a bit strange.


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## Spanky (3 Oct 2008)

Possibly driven by the insurance company?  Heaven forbid they should actually pay out a claim without a fight.


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## dapaterson (3 Oct 2008)

Units are requried by regulation to seek insurance for their non-pubic Property.  The Voltigeurs got that coverage for their NPP.  The insurance company is now suing DND on behalf of their policy holder, alleging that DND did not provide access to the site to permit them to ascertain the cause of the fire.

If it is proven that DND as the proeprty owner was negligent in their precautions, the insurance company would have sound grounds to seek money from the Crown.  "Act of God" is one thing covered by insurance; "Foreseeable consequence of poor maintenance and deliberate ignoring of fire and safety regulations" isn't - those responsbiel are sued so the company can recover their funds.


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## Brad Sallows (5 Oct 2008)

If you read the fine print in an insurance policy, you may find a clause that authorizes the company to take legal action in your name.  I don't attach any more meaning to the issue than that, in the absence of more detailed facts regarding how and why the action was initiated.


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## begbie (4 Feb 2009)

Update: The Manège Militaire in Quebec City was referenced in the 2009 Federal Budget.

From the budget document:

Manège Militaire in Québec City

In April 2008, a fire destroyed the Manège Militaire in Québec City. Built in 1887, the drill hall is one of the most important national historic sites in Québec City. Through a consultation process, the Government will seek the input of interested stakeholders on project ideas to ensure its continued contribution to this country’s remarkable landscape. Budget 2009 provides $2 million to Public Works and Government Services Canada to develop a plan for the future of this historic site. 

Edit: I'm not sure what this means.  But it sounds like reconstructing the drill hall is just an 'option.'


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## geo (4 Feb 2009)

From what it appears...
The Voltigeurs are now set up (up the street) in La Citadelle
Given that the Reg force unit was pert much always working out of Valcartier, the Voltigeurs can probably continue living out of their new diggs... thus, answer the following question: If rebuilt, what would this new / old armoury be used for ???

I can see the building being rebuilt & handed over to the National Parks commission (Plains of Abraham & all)
I can see the building being rebuilt & handed over to the Provincial Government (Legislative Assembly building next door)
I can see the building being rebuilt & handed over to the City of Quebec .. for a multitude of activities... take your pick


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## jollyjacktar (5 Feb 2009)

Just as long as they resurrect her.  I was by there last week on a driver's course.  What a bloody shame I love old buildings like that.  It's a heartbreaking sight.


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