# Camp Wainwright after the DCOMM Speech!   LFWA Wise



## cbt arms sub tech (1 Apr 2005)

Anyone encouraged after listening to the LFWA DCOMM Speech on why we all should spend time in Wainwright this summer....


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## Scoobie Newbie (1 Apr 2005)

Didn't hear it.  Do you have a link?


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## cbt arms sub tech (1 Apr 2005)

Seems like he's going to each armoury in LFWA concerning reserves giving his question & answer period, an asking troops to instruct in Wainwright!


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## TCBF (1 Apr 2005)

The impression I got after attending the "town hall" meeting at Camp Wainwright a wek ago, was that there were severe personell sustainment issues regarding the Militia's ability to provide instructors for the summer taskings that provide their trained soldiers, and thus the future of their Regiments.   As a WATC WO said "You don't feed the cow,   cow dies, no more milk."   Inother words, if all the Offrs, WOs, and Snr NCOs find it inconvenient to spend time training their own, they will have no soldiers - or reason to be employed as   leaders - in five years.   So start feeding the cow.   Seems like a simple plan.   Comments?

Tom


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## cbt arms sub tech (1 Apr 2005)

Well Put Tom, basically we're not in great shape, although we need to start putting time & effort into it...Wondering if conditions will change in Wainwright so people want to head up there?


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## TCBF (1 Apr 2005)

Well, there are two types of conditions - human and physical.   As far as physical goes, we at CMTC are presently housed in Building 152   - the same building I waited outside of for 12 hours to clear out of MILCON and into SSEP as a 16 year old LSSR private in 1971.   It's old, but it works and we have a lot of fun in it.

I live (IR) in building 18, originally Snr NCO Qtrs for 6 Div , then German POW Sr NCOs.   It isn't the best, but fine for me, and I will avoid moving into 220 so the single guys who call the shack "Home" can have a bigger room.

The trailers are small, but beat the 80 lbr / 160 lbr tents we taught SSEP/RESO1/2 out of in the 1970s.

I guess the question comes down to the climate of command you work in and the people you work with.   Do you feel welcome?   Are you valued?   Do you fit in and belong?   Even in the Regs, that can change every APS.   

I understand the issues regarding young single soldiers being torn away from a vibrant night life to spend the summers in Wx, while Jody gets his girl for the summer in Calgary.   Hey, I was young once, too.

Don't know all the answers.   I do know that from the summer of 1971 to the summer of 1976, the Militia courses I was on/taught were largely staffed by the militia and the RSS.   The Regs just can't open up another sardine can of instructors for the summer.   That's what going from 90,000 to 52,000 does.

I think making courses longer, not garunteeing a complete summer's employment for Militia students, and raising the enlisment age from 16 to 17 did the Militia more harm than good, but others may disageree with me.

I do know that with all it's problems, we   need the Militia as a structure for mobilization if nothing else, and every time we try to make it something it wasn't meant to be, we only break it more.

Having said that, IBTS and BTS are universal, and we should be talking about part time and full time professionals who do the best they can with what they have, while they have it.

See you in Wx!

Tom


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## cbt arms sub tech (1 Apr 2005)

Tom,

What do you do in Wainwright curious, you actually live in the camp as well, I guess if rent is cheap, why not right!


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## TCBF (1 Apr 2005)

CMTC Armoured Observer/Controller. My family stays in the Edmonton area. I commute on weekends, unless I am working the weekend.

Tom


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## George Wallace (1 Apr 2005)

TCBF said:
			
		

> Well, there are two types of conditions - human and physical.    As far as physical goes, we at CMTC are presently housed in Building 152    - the same building I waited outside of for 12 hours to clear out of MILCON and into SSEP as a 16 year old LSSR private in 1971.    It's old, but it works and we have a lot of fun in it.



Oh! My God! Tom

We were on the same SSEP in 1971.   Park Hotel and Wainwright Hotel.   Gomer Pyle Huts.   Survival trg.   One week in the woods outside Hinton.   My first beer ( then 1st Pint of Capt Morgan Dark).    ;D


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## TCBF (1 Apr 2005)

The SSEP/Ldsp Crse run by 3RCHA?  SSEP Parades in mass, every Saturday morning?  Sunday "Sports"?

Tom


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## George Wallace (1 Apr 2005)

After the "Waincon" I got put into the Civie side of the house.  Walked into the H Hut as a no hook Gunner in my Battle Dress and had all these guys calling me sir....until I found a bunk and changed into jeans and shirt like them.  Did a lot of semi-military and survival training culminating in a week in the woods in the foothills outside Hinton.  Then back to the Guns in Yorkton.


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## Brad Sallows (1 Apr 2005)

>Inother words, if all the Offrs, WOs, and Snr NCOs find it inconvenient to spend time training their own

I have never seen any figures on available strengths, or demographic changes which affect availability.

I do know that for the past decade (plus), people have warned about the problem of maintaining a critical mass of instructors and lamented the various factors thought to aggravate shortages and attrition.  Commanders at various levels from time to time have been exposed to comments, criticisms, and suggestions.  Taken together with all the other things which were thought important, decisions were made, not all of which resulted in making sure all courses were run as proposed each year.  If you eat the seed corn or fail to lay enough aside or it isn't as fertile as it used to be, the consequences are predictable.


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## TCBF (1 Apr 2005)

This was July 1971, right?   During MILCON, we were track toads in the back of a 2PPCLI M113A1.

I didn't know there was a civie SSEP running there at the same time!   We were cleaning our FN C1s on ponchos in the shade behind the range, when we were told to leave one sentry to watch the stripped rifles and the rest would form up.   So we did.   A chinook (remember Cdn Chinooks?) lands, some general gets out, the Sh_thook takes off, and we get felled out.

To go back and find the helicopter inspired tornado has deposited a yhick layer of sand on and in our stripped weapons.   Talk about a bunch of disloyal 16 year olds with guns after that.   

Tom


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## TCBF (1 Apr 2005)

"If you eat the seed corn or fail to lay enough aside or it isn't as fertile as it used to be, the consequences are predictable."

I think a combination of making the courses longer, increasing the enrolment age for the Militia from 16 to 17, and not guaranteeing full summer employment to students, and a lack of funding and imagination, has contributed to the problem of an insufficient number of Militia NCOs to teach courses in the summer.

Tom


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## Fraser.g (1 Apr 2005)

I taught for allot of years in Wx and after dealing with the attitude from allot of the regular force members towards the reserves in both basic and advanced training companies of both the PPCLI battle school and WATC I know why they are having a hard time getting instructor cadre in for the summers.

Even after repeated assurances that the reserve instructor cadre would be treated with respect and in a professional manor there were repeated references to F'in MO and other derogatory remarks. It became obvious that the Wainwright Mafia was alive and well. The full time cadre got the time off for Golf tournaments, hockey, rec days etc and the reserve cadre on the same course had to take up the slack. 

I know allot of members who would love to work for the summer but the only proviso is that it is not in Wainwright. The last time I was there I submitted a list to the Advance Trg Coy Sgt Major on his request as to the problems encountered by a reserve NCO instructor by the base and training center. \

They wonder why those who have the option of not going back don't??????

There, I feel much better now that I have had my little rant.


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## TCBF (1 Apr 2005)

Doesn't sound like a rant to me, just personal observations.

So, what's the solution?  WATC staff understand the issues, they think Basic can be taught on the Armoury floor, and SQ/TQ# whatever taught in the summer, so that by Sep, units have trained soldiers to take to the field.

How do we convince Militia NCOs to come to Wx and teach for the summer?

Tom


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## Fishbone Jones (2 Apr 2005)

When it comes to the more senior ranks ie: Sgt and above, most hold full time civilian jobs. They, and their employers cannot afford a two month absence from the workplace. This also applies to a lot of MCpls. In many, but not all cases, decentralization of the courses to Brigade or Unit level would solve the problem. It   takes longer to complete on weekends but it is doable. We are currently running both a BMQ and a DP2 Armoured Recce courses out of our home facility, as well as a full Driver wheeled course and a Brigade PLQ in London. All three Units are participating and sharing resources. We are also preparing to kick off a Pre SQ course which will allow for a reduced length summer course. This will enable us to fit the remaining portion of the SQ and on completion flip the students to their MOC course and complete them both in the summer. Then on to their DP2 again in the fall at home.


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## TCBF (2 Apr 2005)

Sounds to me like you are making it happen.  Any opposition to this?

Tom


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## Fraser.g (2 Apr 2005)

How to encourage reserve NCOs and Officers to come to Wx as instructor cadre?

1. Treat them like you would regular force members. That is to say, do not double and quaduple bunk instructor cadre.

2. Treat them according to rank.

3. Standardize standards so that there is no flip flopping of requirements for course reports/ weeklies etc.

4. Allow access for instructor cadre to the DIN and computers for course work.

5. Allow sufficient stores / access to training areas to instruct courses.

6. Get rid of the Wx Mafia

7. Make the course / RTU / Training failure system efficient. No more 800 kicks at the can for candidates that in the opinion of the course staff should be failures. We as an organization are too easy on troops on course. It is time to make the courses challenging enough to have a quality product at the end.

This is a start and I am confident that there are many other former instructors out there to add to the list.

GF


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## TCBF (2 Apr 2005)

"1. Treat them like you would regular force members. That is to say, do not double and quaduple bunk instructor cadre."

-until the new Yukon Lodge huts are built, and maybe after that, we will still have less than ideal qtrs at peak times.  We have all done it in tents in the past.  It's a wait and see, I guess.

2. Treat them according to rank.

Yup. 

3. Standardize standards so that there is no flip flopping of requirements for course reports/ weeklies etc.

Yup

4. Allow access for instructor cadre to the DIN and computers for course work.

Big Yup.  Even Reg Force Regts still have computer issues.

5. Allow sufficient stores / access to training areas to instruct courses.

Yup.  

6. Get rid of the Wx Mafia

? Unclear.  PM me if you have to.

7. Make the course / RTU / Training failure system efficient. No more 800 kicks at the can for candidates that in the opinion of the course staff should be failures. We as an organization are too easy on troops on course. It is time to make the courses challenging enough to have a quality product at the end.

-"If only I had such power in my hands."  - A Bridge Too Far.  

I don't necessarily think we are too easy on  troops on course.  It depends on the course and the instructors.  I think that there have been cases of both railroading and lax standards, and prob this website can provide lots of testimonials for each.  Perspective is everything, and perhaps no generation of soldiers ever thought the follow on generation was worth it's salt.

Tom


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## Standards (4 Apr 2005)

Rather than just complaining about what's wrong with Wainwright, you also need to look at why the DComd felt compelled to go around and give his speech in the first place.

Last year over half the scheduled summer courses were cancelled.  This was not due to a lack of students, but to a lack of instructors.  Then various unit CO's complained that their young soldiers didn't get trained and some of them started running courses on the armouries floor.  Some (not all) of these courses ended up being total failures due to lack of resources, planning, etc to the point where they were not producing effective soldiers.

Hopefully at least some potential instructors will put the past problems in Wainwright behind them (many of the problems have been addressed) and come out to teach so that effective training can happen and the maximum number of qualified soldiers can be graduated.  Anyone who doesn't come out and doesn't have valid reasons (and "I don't want to, snivel, moan, it's not nice there, whine, complain" isn't a good reason in my books) is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Right now the Reserve training system is broken and it needs all the help it can get.

Note: No, I am not posted to Wainwright.


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## Fraser.g (4 Apr 2005)

Well I guess what they will do is what they have done since 97. Get out the leaf blower on grad parade for the PLQ and with a broad brush paint all those who have passed the course and are willing to stay to a leadership position whether they are mature enough to do the job or not.

Then once they are staff and not students, keep treating them like they are the ones still on course.

Go WATC STANDARDS!

This is not an excuse, in your words, "I don't want to, snivel, moan, it's not nice there, whine, complain" isn't a good reason in my books". these are the facts. 

We are reservists, we do this on a part time basis. We do not HAVE to work during the summer unless we want to. If YOU want the instructor cadre out to teach in order to "fix" it then you will have to make us WANT to come out. 

And treating the summer augmentee staff like crap will not make us WANT to come out.

I served a lot of summers out in Wx and other bases teaching. I have powered through the establishment of tent city and the fall of the PPCLI Battle School in  97 ,  the Mega courses of the summer of 98, ATC in 99 and the list goes on.

They ask the instructor cadre to commit to training and instruction in January or February but yet do not commit themselves to hiring those instructors until mid to late April. 

The facts are that the majority of the instructor Cadre are University students who do not have the financial stability to pick and choose when it comes to economic survival during the summer months. If the powers that be do not guarantee full time employment for those who wish it until the final hour and then are surprised when the majority of those have taken other summer employment can you be that shocked?

If you want instructors to come out to teach then you have to do two things.

1. Make them want to by treating them well.
2. Confirm employment earlier then is done now.

GF


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## Fishbone Jones (4 Apr 2005)

TCBF said:
			
		

> Sounds to me like you are making it happen.   Any opposition to this?
> 
> Tom



Tom,

I haven't heard any problems on our end. A couple of reshuffled weekends because the FA wknd set up by the Battle School fell through for the scheduled date, no biggie, we flipped the TT. Certainly not an insurmountable problem. It works, and in most cases well. We have the instruction available on a part time basis, same as the students. In most cases, as I said above, it's hard getting two months off for full time workers to act as training staff. I have always fought for, and believed in decentralization of the lower end courses for Reserves, up to and including DP3 CC, but I'm only one voice.


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## TCBF (4 Apr 2005)

You might not see DP3 CC, but I know some in Wx felt that a Basic taught on the Armoury floor, followed by a summer crse SQ/Trades Trg should give the unit a crop of useable soldiers in Sept.

The trick is lining up the courses so NCOs can teach/take/teach courses through the whole summer. 

We did it thirty years ago. We should be able to do it now.

Tom


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## Fishbone Jones (4 Apr 2005)

Tom,

Yes, but thirty years ago we had a more robust Army, without the deployment rotation we have today. We were able to draw on the Reg Force if we fell short, and IIRC they accounted for the majority of the instructors anyway back then. We've just gotten to the point where the Regs are worn out and undermanned. They'd like us to take up our own training, and rightfully so, but we're no better off in the Reserves either. Maybe if they allowed Reserve instructors to come in on a two week swing instructor cycle, instead of demanding they be there for the complete course, they may get a few more. I don't know what the answer is to summer training. I do know one, out of many, of the factors is the treatment afforded the Reserve instructors at MTC's. Many are tired of being treated worse than recruits and not being accepted. It probably varies with the MTC. I had my first summer in Wx last year at the Armoured wing and loved my time there, you couldn't drag me drunk to Meaford for the same though.


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## Rifleman62 (4 Apr 2005)

I am sure that the CO of WATC is doing whatever is possible to make attending as a instructor as user friendly as possible. Unfortunately, that is not always translated, nor executed, at all levels. PRes Sgt's, WO's and Lt/Capts, once they finish University/Community College are employed in a civilian environment, often in a junior position, and their employer probably knows nothing about the military, or cares.  Reality is, this will never be resolved, even through job protection legislation ( possibly for Ops only). The PRes cannot train its self in the Jul and Aug time frame. If you are CSS, the crses are long, DP2 (OJT) reqires 60 to 180 trg days depending on MOC. In a perfect world, and this does not happen, it will take 5 or 6 years (depending on MOC) to become a PRes CSS MCpl ( including PLQ Mod 6 of PLQ Land which RegF CSS do not take  (CF PLQ). Thats if you get loaded every single year on a crse and you have the time off. If you joined at 17, when you become a MCpl, you are at least 23/24 years of age. Are you going to rely on - 37.5 days CL A and possibly 60 Cl B summer days as annual income?  What employer will give you 60 days off in the summer when all of the company's staff wants a summer vacation period?  Large companys have some flexability. What if there is only 20 employees or less? Also DP 1 crses start in May/Jun, prior to High School ending, so its tough to even get on this crse. We have been averaging, over a four year period, five DP 1 crse loadings per year. A unit cannot last long at this rate. This also impacts on NCO production, or lack there of. What can we do? How about Alternate Service Delivery?  I am sure Bombardier corporation is an expert in this field, and get set up for 1 Jul, cause they have already won the competion (before it is posted)


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## TCBF (4 Apr 2005)

Remember, it's not "Bombardier", it's "Al Bombardyeh"   ;D

Sounds to me like we should DL (distance learning) a lot of the Reserve courses as a pre-crse requirement, then just run short field crses to get them "at home in the hole" followed by "perisher traces".

Okay, just kidding about the "Perisher Traces".  ;D

But short, snappy courses, learning things you could not learn alone.

I taught ARTC in 2001 in Gagetown, and we taught AFV Rec.  Why?

"Because they don't learn it at home."

So start having them learn it at home.  Most Militia Crewmen are AFV freaks anyway.  Give them an excuse to surf Jane's at zero dark buffalo.  

Tom


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## Fishbone Jones (4 Apr 2005)

I have the CTC AFV package here and it's used all the time. The DP2 course just went through it and passed the test administered by Standards. All Amoured Units have a copy IIRC.

Distance Learning is another thing we've tried pushing the School for. Do it at home, write the online test, do a TKT when you arrive for course. Pass it, mount up! Fail it, back to the bird and the Unit eats the cost. That would ensure the Units kept their end of the bargain. Then we could do, say the DP3 CC, for two weeks field instead of one and not shorten the away course. Much better bang for the buck. However, for some reason, after it seemed like a go, they extended the DP3 CC to FOUR weeks so it could run in conjunction with the Officer course and fit THEIR TT and defeated the whole reasoning behind qualifying MCpl CC's easily and in a short time. :


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