# Perpetuating the 4th Canadian Mounted Rifles



## Bill Smy (27 Sep 2004)

Can anyone tell me which current Canadian regiment perpetuates 4 CMR (if in fact, there is a unit currently on the Order of Battle), and the lineage of the perpetuation?

I've tried regiments.org but this is one of units not completed.


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## Michael OLeary (27 Sep 2004)

The Governor General's Horse Guards
http://regimentalrogue.com/battlehonours/bathnrarmd/04-gghg.htm\



> Perpetuating the 4th Canadian Mounted Rifles, the 7th Regiment, Canadian Mounted Rifles and the 216th Battalion, Canadian Expeditionary Force.
> 
> 4th Canadian Mounted Rifles - Mount Sorrel, Somme, 1916, Flers-Courcelette, Ancre Heights, Arras, 1917, '18, Vimy, 1917, Passchendaele, Amiens, Arras, 1918, Scarpe, 1918, Hindenburg Line, Canal du Nord, Cambrai, 1918, Valenciennes, Sambre, FRANCE AND FLANDERS, 1915-18
> (G.O. 110 of 1929)


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## Bill Smy (27 Sep 2004)

Thanks Michael. That was a quick reply.


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## Bill Smy (27 Sep 2004)

A couple of other questions.

I note in your listing, Arras appears twice:- Arras, 1917, '18 and a little further on as Arras, 1918. Typo?

Would you have the Battle Honours granted to the 102nd Battalion, CEF?

I also note that in the listings of Second World War honours for The Lincoln and Welland Regiment you do not list Kusten Canal or Bad Zwischenahn. A clerical error in the submission resulted in them not appearing in the original GO, but that error was corrected in the 1990s.


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## Michael OLeary (27 Sep 2004)

Thanks Bill, that Arras bit is a typo, "*Arras, 1917, '18*" is correct.


The 102nd Battalion's Battle Honours are: *Somme, 1916*, Ancre Heights, Ancre, 1916, *Arras, 1917, '18*, *Vimy, 1917*, Hill 70, *Ypres, 1917, Passchendaele, Amiens*, Scarpe, 1918, Drocourt-Queant, *Hindenburg Line, Canal du Nord, Valenciennes, France and Flanders, 1916-18 * (General Order No. 110 of 1929)

I will work on updating the Lincoln and Welland page.

Thanks

Mike


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## Bill Smy (27 Sep 2004)

Thanks.

Here's a bit of mystery. This photo was sent to me by a friend but he has lost the source. The colours were laid up in Christ Church almost immediately on the arrival of the Battalion in Vancouver on their return in 1919. Battle Honours for the war had not been approved as yet, so what do we have here?


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## Michael Dorosh (27 Sep 2004)

Arras is a bit of an odd one - the Calgary Highlanders got Arras 1917,18 while the 10th Battalion (who won the battle honours in the first place) only got Arras 1917...

Was this possibly the case with the CMR and the GGHG?   I thought it was only a typo but maybe this error also occurred with these two units?


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## Bill Smy (27 Sep 2004)

And what about Lens on the colour or flag?


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## Michael Dorosh (27 Sep 2004)

The flag you have is a battle flag - these may have been approved for units without their own Colours.   My understanding is that these were semi-official or unofficial, so the Battle Honours would also simply be something the battalion thought would look nice.

The "standard pattern" of these appears to have been a square flag in the divisional colour, with a white disc, and the unit Battle Patch in the centre.   Dancocks describes one for the Tenth in his book GALLANT CANADIANS.

edit - ADDITIONAL info from the Calgary Highlanders' website:


> The Tenth Battalion, however, did not have its own Colours.   In 1917 the battalion was authorized to have a "battle flag", in red with a white circle bearing the distinguishing patches as worn on the uniform sleeves upon it.   It is not, however, known whether or not the battalion ever adopted such a flag.   Its only use would have been as a headquarters marker in any event.   For the march into Germany in December 1918, the Tenth Battalion was issued a wool bunting Union Jack, of the same type issued to all Canadian battalions not in possession of their own Colours.


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## Michael Dorosh (27 Sep 2004)

Bill Smy said:
			
		

> I also note that in the listings of Second World War honours for The Lincoln and Welland Regiment you do not list Kusten Canal or Bad Zwischenahn. A clerical error in the submission resulted in them not appearing in the original GO, but that error was corrected in the 1990s.



Don't blame the clerk - the honours were clearly typed out - on the reverse of the submission form since they ran out of room on the front.  The Honours Committee neglected to turn the paper over...(!)

Poor clerks, always getting a bum rap.


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## Michael OLeary (27 Sep 2004)

Re the 10th: I've got the relevant original order in hand.   The 10th Infantry Battalion, C.E.F., was authorized both Arras 1917 and Arras 1918.   (G.O. 123 of 1929)

The location "Lens" is found in the orders as part of the geographical definition for actions under the Arras Offensive of 1917:

GENERAL ORDERS - 1928 

G.O. 6 / 1928 

CONDITIONS OF AWARD OF BATTLE HONOURS FOR THE GREAT WAR 1914-1919 
CAMPAIGNS, BATTLES AND OTHER ENGAGEMENTS IN WHICH CANADIAN TROOPS PARTICIPATED IN THE GREAT WAR 1914-1919 

FRANCE AND FLANDERS, 1914-18

The Arras Offensive (9 April â â€œ 15 May, 1917)
   The Battles of Arras, 1917 - 9 April â â€œ 4 May
         (i) Battle of Vimy Ridge - 9-14 April -   Willerval â â€œ Maroeuil â â€œ Mont St. Eloi â â€œ Ablain-St. Nazaire â â€œ Lievan-*Lens   * 

--with flanking operations towards *Lens * (3 June â â€œ 26 Aug.)     
                  Affairs south of the Souchez River - 3-25 June - Road Avion â â€œ Vimy (exclusive) â â€œ Souchez: thence the river Souchez

Battle of Hill 70 - 15-25 August - The river Souchez from *Lens * to Angres: thence a line to Grenay â â€œ Vermelles Station â â€œ Vendin-le-Vieil   

http://regimentalrogue.com/battlehonours/firstworldwar-btlhnrslist2.htm

The battalion staff probably guessed that the name might in future be entrenched as a battle honour, but this didn't turn out to be the case.


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## Michael OLeary (27 Sep 2004)

I have amended my pages for the GGHG, Calg H and Linc & Weld, thanks for pointing out my omissions and typos. If anyone can identify the reference for the late Battle Honours, I would be grateful. Or if you can help me fill any of the other gaps I have for details or badge photos. Thanks again.

Mike


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## Michael Dorosh (27 Sep 2004)

Michael OLeary said:
			
		

> Re the 10th: I've got the relevant original order in hand.   The 10th Infantry Battalion, C.E.F., was authorized both Arras 1917 and Arras 1918.   (G.O. 123 of 1929)



Odd - Dancocks reports this differently; maybe I need to revisit my source...Perhaps the Tenth were notified by another route than General Orders - can you scan the document or provide the wording of the GO in question?


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## Michael OLeary (27 Sep 2004)

Scans at the following links:

Cover page for General Order 110 of 1929:
http://regimentalrogue.com/sharefiles/GO110-1929-cover.jpg

Battle honours for the Calgary Highlanders:
http://regimentalrogue.com/sharefiles/Calg-H-WWI-battle-honours.jpg

Cover page for General Order 123 of 1929:
http://regimentalrogue.com/sharefiles/GO123-1929-cover.jpg

Battle honours for the 10th Battalion:
http://regimentalrogue.com/sharefiles/10th-Bn-CEF-battlehonours.jpg


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## Michael Dorosh (27 Sep 2004)

Outstanding, thanks very much.  I'll need to amend the regimental site and credit you for the help.  Wonder why Dancocks goofed on this.


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## Michael OLeary (27 Sep 2004)

You're welcome, always ready to help.

It is possible that Dancocks never actaually referred to the original General Orders. The regiment, or his other sources, may hold correspondence (or references to same) where initial lists and exchanges may have left certain Battle Honour claims in limbo, but which were verified later before the General Order was issued.


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## Bill Smy (28 Sep 2004)

Thanks to you both.

I now wonder where the "battle flag" of the 102nd Bn is. In any event, an interesting problem.


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## Bill Smy (28 Sep 2004)

Michael:--

Sent you an email at your hotmail address but it failed. Email me at bill_smy@yahoo.com regarding badge for The Lincoln and Welland Regiment in 1957.


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## Michael Dorosh (28 Sep 2004)

Bill Smy said:
			
		

> Michael:--
> 
> Sent you an email at your hotmail address but it failed. Email me at bill_smy@yahoo.com regarding badge for The Lincoln and Welland Regiment in 1957.



I don't have a hotmail address..... ???


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## Michael OLeary (28 Sep 2004)

Mike, that was for me. Thanks Bill, I will follow up.

Mike


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## Bill Smy (30 Sep 2004)

Michael:-

The next time I'm at the Regimental Museum, I will dig out the correspondence with regard to the late award of the Battle Honours to The Lincoln and Welland Regiment. I wrote the original submission for the Regiment.


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## Michael OLeary (30 Sep 2004)

I would appreciate that. Thank you.


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