# QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units



## fortuncookie5084

What‘s the scoop on the QOR‘s jump company?  Will it be there for a while or do the members nervously expect to be wearing green hats some day soon?  I know I meet the physical standards for parachute units, and would love to be a part of one while still in school---but I would not want to relocate to Toronto only do be a rifleman (I like being a Guard better anyway!)


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## McG

I do not agree with a reserve unit being given an elite tasking.  specialist and combat support (recce, AT, Mor, Pnr, etc.) taskings are fine when at the sub-unit level.  Maintaining a parachute capable reserve regiment is a drain on an already thin budget.


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## Gunner

Well, unless things have changed drastically in the last while, the QOR do not have a jump role or mission of providing a jump company etc, etc.

Some background.  When Res F units were given operational taskings several units were deemed operationally tasked to the Airborne Regiment.  Out west it included the Royal Westminster Regiment and the Loyal Edmonton Regiment.  The demise of the Airborne Regiment and the subsequent revoking of Res F operational taskings took away the jump role from select infantry units.

Why does the QOR have a percieved "jump"role?  It was never designed to be as an infantry role, rather, the positions were there to support the Canadian Parachute Centre which moved to Trenton in 96.  So while the QOR may bill itself as having a "jump company" it doesn‘t really have a mission to have that role.

I have to agree with McG inthat there really isn‘t a role for a Reserve unit to have a jump company and the focus should be on the basics of infantry.

My two cents.


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## Art Johnson

Visit the Para Companies Web Site and ask questions. http://www.qor.com/airborne/airborne.html


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## fortuncookie5084

The QOR website advertises an actual company- tasked with providing parachute infantry at the reserve level.  The above link is where I got most of my info from.  They apparently jump a few times a year and adhere to SOP‘s similar to 3RCR para coy‘s.  Whether such a reserve unit deserves a para tasking is not what I wanted to discuss.  Getting a blast of **** from holier-than-thou reg force soldiers does nothing to further the cause of soldiering in Canada.  It is divisive and elitist at a time when all of Canada‘s soldiers should promote Airborne capabilities at every level.  By the way...I have yet to hear any of my British friends say anything bad about 4Para TA.


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## Yard Ape

I have to agree with Gunner & McG inthat there really isn‘t a role for a Reserve unit to have a jump company and the focus should be on the basics of infantry.  If anybody wants to do something more fancy than that, they should train as mechanized with the vehicles being held by the local ATC.

  :fifty:   Yard Ape


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## ender

I think that reservists should continue getting jump courses in order to have something to aspire too.  I know my unit gets very few spots on the jump course, and a lot of our soldiers work really hard in order to try and get it.  This raises the morale and competence of our unit.  Anyway, that‘s my opinion.


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## Doug VT

Absolutley!  Keep the parachute capability alive!  However, what we really need is another unit based in the parchute/airmobile role to really bring back something to aspire to.


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## MP 811

Hey gents...........being a new guy to this board and seeing this message thread, I had to add my two cents.  I belonged to this particular unit back in 86 - 89 and was a member of the para coy.  We were never really a company to begin with as the most we could muster was about 35 qualified jumpers at most.  Most my jumps were done with 3 Cdo, the airborne engineers and the yanks.  Although the unit thought of itself as an airborne unit...........and probably still does...........you guys are correct in stating that there primary tasking is to provide qualified jumpers to support the CPC in Trenton.......nothing else.......  And from what I hear...........with militia reforms.............the unit might cease to exist altogether anyways..........


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## the patriot

It‘s hard to say that the unit may cease to exist.  Due to the fact that a majority of the jumpers or a certain number of them are currently overseas in support of 3 RCR Para Coy which is tasked out to Operation Palladium in the Balkans.

-the patriot-


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## MP 811

I didnt know that they had anyone tasked overseas at the moment...........all I know is that when the pearly palace released the militia reforms paper, the QOR was one of the units slated on the paper to be stood down.  Hopefully things have changed and the govt has rethought that one out.  Wouldnt be the first time the govt backtracked on a proposed move!


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## Se7eN

I agree also, its almost a driving force in itself. To try to be the best that you can be, for me thats to be a future airborne soldier.


- JH


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## Yard Ape

There is room for reservists to take jump courses without there being a reserve unit maintaining a parachute company.  There is barley enough time allotted in a year for reserve units to maintain basic light infantry skills.   There is room for a Reg airmobile battalion, but not for reserve jump Coys.

  Yard Ape


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## spacemarine

Being a reservist in QOR is a helluva deal compared to the other infantry regiments.  They get to fill spots on jump courses (when I did my course usually 3 or 4 QOR NCOs came along to fill up the space on each jump, along with the American soldiers) and when I was on my course they stayed in the CPC barracks and jumped all one long weekend.  It‘s too bad there‘s not the money for the other 3 reserve regiments who lost their jump taskings.  Just curious, what do you guys think about the army cadet jump course (1 in 6 courses is for army cadets)?


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## Brad Sallows

The only "paper" I remember was a list of units which had not scored sufficiently high on their LFRR evaluations.  That did not necessarily mean they were subject to any form of change.  It was simply a "report card".


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## McG

One course a year is for army cadets, and in the past Reg and Reserve personnel have been loaded on course with cadets.  If only 7 course are run a year then the ratio would be 1:7, and if twenty were run in a year the ratio would be 1:20.  

As for the number of QOR troops who get loaded on jump courses, why should they have this monopoly to get in when soldiers from other regiments rarely get hope of taking the course?  Maybe the reserves should take a look at how the cadets load people onto the course.  The best people from across the country who volunteer are considdered.  This makes it a reward that all reservists could reasonably work toward.


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## spacemarine

We were told they were only running 6 courses a year now.


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## Travis

umm does anyone have any sites on paratroopers in the reserves or even on pilots in the reserves.   I would just like to know the basic info on the reserves and being a paratrooper or pilot.    How much you have to work, how long till you can volunteer for a UN mission etc.


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## Marti

Here‘s a link to the only reserve unit in Canada that has a jump tasking  www.qor.com . They‘re located in Toronto, so unless you move there, I think you‘re SOL. I‘m not if we have reservist pilots, but you could probably find out pretty easily on the DND recruiting site. As far as going on tours, I have a buddy who signed up in early June, did his QL2/3 over the summer, volunteered as soon as he got back to his unit and got it. He had to go through selection and pre-deployment training, so it‘s not guaranteed you‘ll actually make it through to the deployment, but it worked out for him so it‘s possible.


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## Spr.Earl

I beilieve the Westies in B.C. still have a jump platoon.


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## Infanteer

No Spr Earl, the Westies, the Eddies, and franco-para unit (Regiment de Saganauy?) lost their tasking quite some time ago.  I do believe the Hasty P‘s have recently been given the tasking to help support the QOR though.


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## combat_medic

The only way to be a pilot in the reserves is if you live within close proximity to a base that has a helicopter squadron, AND you must have a rotary pilot‘s lisence before you can apply. The reserves WILL NOT train you to be a pilot nor will they pay for flight training or reimburse you if you get the training on your own. So, if you have $18,000 to take the courses, knock yourself out.

As for reserve para, the Queen‘s Own Rifles are it, and rumour has it that even they will be losing their para capabilities in the near future. 

So, to answer your questions; no, and no.


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## leopard11

/


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## Pikache

How stuff flies around.

Hasty Ps is getting para tasking, same with Lincs and Winks, as far as I was told by a Hasty P buddy of mine.


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## combat_medic

Leopard: Getting the basic para course and being employed as a paratrooper are two different things. Anyone can take the basic para course, if they get nominated and can pass the fitness test. There are Naval BPSO officers who have the course. Are they ever going to be employed as a paratrooper? Not bloody likely.


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## leopard11

Ok, i never said anything about them being paratroopers, simply that they could take the course and get there wings.   I was just throwing out another option for the initial question of being reserves and having wings.


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## McInnes

BTW, how does one become a paratrooper? Do you simply get your wings and wait untill they need paratroopers and you get an offer or a recommendation from a CO?


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## 4CDO PARA

I know this thread is ancient, however if you are still interested in knowing; 
A Jump qualified soldier becomes a paratrooper by serving in a parachute company. With the para coy they will go through some variation of a Para Indoc including Airborne role specific training ( there is currently some variation to these credentials between the Vandoo, RCR, PPCLI and QOR Para companies ) after which they are usually awarded silver wings ( commonly referred to as white wings ) then after serving in a hard para role for 1 year they keep their "white wings" for their career. Any soldier who has completed their BPara is referred to as a Military Parachutist. Those performing the role in a Para Coy are Paratroopers.


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## pbi

We need PPCLI Guy here: he recently did G3 LFCA and could say exactly what tasking the QOR have or do not officially have with respect to sp for CPC. When I was A/G3-G3Ops of LFCA (1998-2000) the QOR were not tasked to provide a para coy, although the unit was keeping the idea alive as a morale/retention issue. What they were tasked to do was (through 32 CBG) generate Res para-qual pers to aug CPC as required. This was not at all the same thing as having a para coy role. Cheers.


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## HollywoodHitman

The Westies had a jump platoon until the early 90's. The residual was a TOW platoon and AA capability. Both were successful endeavours but it's safe to say there were many good, experienced guys who moved on as a result.......

The idea of Res. Jump Pl. is not one that should be looked upon lightly. The money involved in training and maintaining troops' skills on LAV's and whatnot, as well as their proper employment on the battlefield would be too high. Airborne is a means of insertion and once on the ground the Airborne soldier fulfills the role of light infanteer. If the military were to provide their light infantry reserve units with more slots in jump courses, the Reg units could draw upon the reserve units to augment and support their jump companies in case they were needed. Helo's are in greater supply than Hercs and I believe CPC doesn't always use the Hercs or Griffons on their courses 9could be wrong on that one) so the idea that there are not enough resources to keep troops jump qualified isn't really the case.......Round trip ticked on West Jet from Vancouver to Edmonton is about 250$........Anyway.......

_Generally_ speaking, Airborne troops by nature are highly motivated, fit and would be considered reasonably competent or better in their primary infantry skills before being allowed to serve in that capacity. The reserve troops who would participate in this type of organization would also demonstrate the same kinds of attributes, physically and skill related as their counterparts in the Regs. It's worked well in the past, who's to say it couldn't now?

Everyone knows what kind of motivation is often provided by giving the young troops something to work for.........

My 2 cents.


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## pbi

Further to my last, I remember the QOR "Jump Coy" fairly well: I knew some of its original members: I believe one of them later went on to the Skyhawks. Although they struggled wth the same obstacles that all Army Res face, my recollection is they could field about a platoon of dependables, and had very high morale. They were good, at least in part, because the people who would join an org like that would be more fit and more highly motivated than the average soldier.

If we are going to have a RegF para capability, then IMHO we need to be able to augment/repl that with good quality Res soldiers. The problem we face is the ancient enemy of the voluntary Res: time. Cheers.


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## Razic

I think if you guys saw the QOR jump company in action you would support us having the tasking.


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## bossi

Two cents, two points:

1.  From a logistical standpoint, the Hast & PER are closer to CPC so I'd give them the nod vis-a-vis the task of augmenting CPC.

2.a.  Once upon a time the jump course was more readily available - in essence it was an incentive, and nominees were considered to be the "top soldiers" from any given unit.  I'd prefer to "spread the wealth", as opposed to restricting it to only one unit.  

2.b.  Another consideration to the problems associated with having all one's eggs in one basket is that of augmentation to operations - there are still many reservists who are either unavailable or unwilling to volunteer for operations.  As such, if the parachute capability is limited to only one unit, the statistical probability increases that parachute training would be wasted on somebody who will never deploy (and, last time I checked, the Army was trying to not waste money ...).  Conversely, by distributing jump course vacancies more widely, better selection criteria would ensure ouir money is well spent on training the right soldiers.  The reason I mention this is because last year the Ontario unit that deployed the most troops on operations wasn't the QOR.


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## pbi

So bossi was I right in my recollection: there actually is no "Jump Coy" task, but rather a task to provide indiv aug to CPC? Cheers.


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## bossi

pbi said:
			
		

> So bossi was I right in my recollection: there actually is no "Jump Coy" task, but rather a task to provide indiv aug to CPC?



If I were to provdie my OPINION in public, you'd be able to hear the anguished screams all the way over there ...

As an unofficial, off-the-record compromise, can you say "mission creep" ... ?


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## Blindspot

bossi said:
			
		

> If I were to provdie my OPINION in public, you'd be able to hear the anguished screams all the way over there ...



To quote a MCpl who was trying to give a lecture at the same time as a pipes and drum practice, "SHUT THE F* UP!"    

More seriously, I believe the removal of the Jump company from the QOR would be tantamount to castration. It's ingrained into the culture of the regiment and a source of pride for its members.

I understand also the fiscal and strategic reasons others might advocate stripping the QOR of it's Jump company as the political trend toward the military is to slash rather than augment or add capability. Why not go further? Why not amalgamate all of the Toronto infantry regiments into one super infantry reserve regiment. Ensure that an airborne tasked company was part of this regiment. This would also make perfect fiscal and strategic sense. Somehow though, I don't think any of the regiments would agree to this by the very nature of their individual regimental cultures. 

What I'm trying to say is that I don't believe a member of the QOR would be any more willing to loose his maroon beret than a member of the 48th or Tor Scot would be willing to loose his kilt.


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## HollywoodHitman

For a short while when the Jump Platoon (it was an actual unit tasking) was shut down, there were thoughts that the unit would crumble. Some things changed, soldiers came and went and the Regiment lived. A tough pill to swallow, but hopefully common sense will prevail and jump courses will be offered to units and deserving soldiers Canada wide. 

Boggles my mind that jump courses are given to troops (no offence to those who work in the rear) who will never, ever use the skill, as a means of retention and motivation. Whynot motivate the young infanteers by giving them a chance to earn their wings?

Everyone has their place in the modern military, and it's no secret that the support trades are what makes the combat arms function at an admin level, but you won't see me getting a course thats out of my MOC just to motivate me or keep me in. The counter terrorist driving course would be fun.........


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## pbi

Maybe I'm being misunderstood here. I have not, anywhere, advocated the removal of the para role from the QOR. In fact, what I said was:



> If we are going to have a RegF para capability, then IMHO we need to be able to augment/repl that with good quality Res soldiers. The problem we face is the ancient enemy of the voluntary Res: time.



I also said:



> Although they struggled wth the same obstacles that all Army Res face, my recollection is they could field about a platoon of dependables, and had very high morale. They were good, at least in part, because the people who would join an org like that would be more fit and more highly motivated than the average soldier.



My point is that neither 32 CBG nor the QOR really have a "Para Coy Tasking". There is no such thing anymore. What they have (I suspect...unless things have changed...) is a tasking to generate indiv qual parachutists to augment CPC. Now, how the unit goes about doing this is really between the CO and the Bde Comd. If the QOR choose to group their augmentees into a single coy and do Para-related trg, fine. The concern in my mind is what is the trade off: is the unit meeting its BTS requirements, for example? Cheers.


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## the 48th regulator

bossi said:
			
		

> Two cents, two points:
> 
> 1. From a logistical standpoint, the Hast & PER are closer to CPC so I'd give them the nod vis-a-vis the task of augmenting CPC.
> 
> 2.a. Once upon a time the jump course was more readily available - in essence it was an incentive, and nominees were considered to be the "top soldiers" from any given unit. I'd prefer to "spread the wealth", as opposed to restricting it to only one unit.
> 
> 2.b. Another consideration to the problems associated with having all one's eggs in one basket is that of augmentation to operations - there are still many reservists who are either unavailable or unwilling to volunteer for operations. As such, if the parachute capability is limited to only one unit, the statistical probability increases that parachute training would be wasted on somebody who will never deploy (and, last time I checked, the Army was trying to not waste money ...). Conversely, by distributing jump course vacancies more widely, better selection criteria would ensure ouir money is well spent on training the right soldiers. The reason I mention this is because last year the Ontario unit that deployed the most troops on operations wasn't the QOR.



You should just see the 48th these days, every other guy sports a pair of wings, frig, 15 years and I could not get on a course
" 'cuz it (Jumping) belongs to the QOR and we have courses that you can take that is beneficial to the regiment"

Oh well, I will just practice jumping the curb...HAIR SPORN!

tess


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## chrisp1j

Some good points have been made about the Coy here. I'm not exactly sure of the stutus of the jump coy either. What I am sure of, is that we have the task of, and are capable of, supporting the CPC. For the most part, here's how:

We have the jumpmasters, and all of the equipment neccessary to keep soldiers current, because the CPC has no time for that.

We fill the chutes that keep the pilots current and our JMs often dispatch the soldiers from the aicraft (to keep the pilots and who ever needs to be current, current). 

The reason we are capable of doing all of this, is because we have multiple paratroopers showing up for training, at the same time and same place. Can you imagine trying to have multiple   units trying to each keep men current? or having to clump together on different nights to get current?. The communications and logistics would be nightmarish, and wouldn't work. Thats why we have so many positions.


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## Mr. Ted

Well now a few of you have me curious.

It was suggested a few times in above posts that no one would doubt the veracity of the QOR having a jump status if we  saw them in action.

So let me ask the question for those of you who can actually attest to this:  Once on the ground, are the QOR jump cadre members more motivated, more agressive, more professional?

Because it's my understanding that to serve in the QOR's jump unit/cader/pltn/coy one still needs to complete a version of the AIC or Para Indoc or whatever the beast be named these days.  Does the basic para course and the para indoc course and the esprit of the maroon beret lead to a better infanteer once on the ground?

Mr. Ted

P.S.  I remember when I was a highlander being envious of the QOR jump smocks/maroon beret combo.  It was so...so....4 PARA in a dashing English way.  Does a CADPAT jump smock exists?  Jump boots?


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## 4CDO PARA

In my opinion, YES. The QOR Para Coy does indeed host the fittest, most competent and highly motivated soldiers in the Regiment, and the standard expected of them as jumpers is set very high. At the very least in the minds of the soldiers, the Maroon beret represents infinitely more than a unique delivery-related tasking. Fitter, Faster, Smarter, Keener. That being said, there little or no friction/bravado between the Jumpers and non-para qualified Riflemen in the QOR, both work together almost seamlessly. After all, every Jumper was a LEG once... ;D There are plenty of keen Infantry that don't have wings yet. QOR do have a version of the AIC/Para Indoc. and receiving your silver ( white ) wings is dependant upon your successful completion of that training. There is no CadPat smock and creating one probably hasn't been seriously considered outside the walls of our Mess. There are no "jump boots" either, although many jumpers have their combat boots resoled a la' Vibram wedge sole, wear Magnums or other more comfortable boots in the field with little hassle from the Sergeant Major.


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## Mr. Ted

Thanks for the info.  Interesting to know.

It sounds like you are an active member.  What is the AIC or Para Indo like in the QOR?  Run independantly by the unit?  Up at Pet?  I'm assuming it's about a week of high-speed low drag infantry stuff.  Curious if anyone knows what the course is actually composed of.

The reason I ask is I had the opportunity to both peruse a couple copies of the Jab online as well as a quick visit to the Moss Park armouries a few years ago after leaving my unit.  The dress of the day was BDUs with the airborne maroon shirt underneath.  4PARA posters on the walls, jump towers, the whole bit.  Was quite seductive, fi the truth be told.

I guess the impetus for my original question was to determine to what extent the QOR's status creates a "better" militiaman.  And if so, how quantifiable is it?  Not just the jumpers being better than the LEGs in the unit - but the jump cadre being better than most militia infantry units.  Again, not sure how quantifiable this is.

On another note,(and a fantasy one at that) -  would love to see a Canadian Parachute Regiment formed with a reserve component - 4RCR becoming 4PARA in the British idiom.  And for completely selfish reasons - I live in London!

Mr. Ted


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## 4CDO PARA

The QOR version of the Para Indoc is run by the unit, we have our own JM's, DZ/LZ controllers, RM's, Unarmed combat instructors and the only reserve Pathfinder and Parachute Instructor in the CF. We are also regularily assisted by 3RCR para coy. It is usually run annually ( although parts of it are repeated throughout the training year when oppportunity allows ). This year it is being run at Pet I believe... It consists of; 

- all ELOC/MLOC/TOET soldier skills qualifications 
- para unarmed combat
- basic demolitions
- rigging of standard and non-standard loads (i.e. MG's. mortars. radios ) for jumping
- EPL ( expected performance Level -Para PT testing & BFT ) 
- Airborne operations ( theory ) 
- Para history
- Para first-aid
- Comms refresher
- basic jump attendance
- Para skills refresher
- DZ drills
- swim test

The only time the maroon shirts come out around Moss Park these days are during PT( which is every week ) and o civvie dress. The Airborne memorabilia and towers / landing swings are still there. In terms of "quantifiable proof that the Airborne standards produce superior Primary Reservists? I will have to be real honest here, at my rank I am not privy to such stats,  and way too biased a soldier in my current position to give you an empirical, accurate assessment of that. My opinion would be purely based on my limited personal experience. ( <---- read YES, of course it does! ) There are individual Reserve infantrymen that wear a green beret, balmoral or whatever that are better soldiers than some individuals that wear a maroon beret, the status does not make them supermen by any means. The standards they are held to as a unit, however, does in my opinion produce a keener group of soldiers and ( given their competitive nature )  I think you will  find they will relish any opportunity to prove it.  
4Para eeeh? How about 4CDO??   Sounds interesting  .... to sleep, perchance to dream.


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## Mr. Ted

Excellent post!  Thank you for your well-written intelligent reply.

Man, I've been wondering about that Para Indoc for quite some time.  I appreciate the info.

I remember reading in the Jab that the basic mil para course makes a parachutist - but not a military paratrooper.  The para fitness test plus para indoc do that.  An important distinction.

Enjoy your unit, your maroon beret, your wings and your ability to jump out of perfectly good ariplanes on a regular basis.  You'll look back on that for the rest of your life as something you did that very, very few others have done.

Cheers,

Mr. Ted

P.S.  I will continue to dream of one day re-upping with a comission to serve as a platoon commander within a reserve para entity - a fantasy I know.  Especially in today's political climate.  But it keeps me from going nuts with this meaningless job I currently have (that makes me a lot of money! - right now it's Ducati SuperSports and Audi A4 quattros) but otherwise leaves a guy unfulfilled.  Pharma sales are lucrative but ultimately unsatisfying.  A happy life is one led while paying attention to inner desires and passions.  So it's financial consolidation time right now, but my early semi-retirement plans include re-upping as an officer.  A dream, yes.  But I can't stop dreaming about it during every useless, boring, inconsiquential meeting while my eyes glaze over like a freshly baked Krispy-Kremes...


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## Danjanou

Mr. Ted said:
			
		

> ....   But I can't stop dreaming about it during every useless, boring, inconsiquential meeting while my eyes glaze over like a freshly baked Krispy-Kremes...



God why does that sound familiar?

I guess they were right when they say absence makes the heart grow fonder.


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## bossi

Sorry, I have to offer a dissenting view since it would be unethical for me to remain silent (as unpopular as it may seem).

I've run across more back-stabbers and ill-disciplined louts from the QOR than ANY other unit, ever.
Unfortunately, it seems that the "independent" characteristic of parachute troops has been taken to an extreme - one individual stated in a public forum that his motto was " F buddy before buddy F's you".

Another drunken fraud pretended that his lack of attention to detail and inability to properly plan ahead were his way of injecting "value-added fog of war" into training (e.g. he'd regularly have a "brilliant idea" Friday night getting onto the bus, as opposed to any of the planning meetings held weeks beforehand ...), while on more than one occasion I personally witnessed his excessing drinking cause him to be late for duty the next day (and then he'd laugh it off).

Without exception, the worst examples I've personally seen from the QOR have been those who worshipped the maroon beret.
I could go on, and on, and on, but better not - suffice it to say that I feel very strongly that the perceived "jump task" has not resulted in a better unit.

I'd also point to some statistical evidence that can not be refuted - there are several other units in Toronto who are stronger and have a better track record than the QOR.  From this I deduce that the para role has not helped the QOR become a "better" unit.

Finally, I'd also point out that I've worked alongside many other maroon berets (Canadian, US, British, and other countries) who have been excellent soldiers - some of the best I've ever met - and I include the Canadian Airborne Regiment - in comparison to them, the QOR's I'm talking about are an embarassment - thus, I'd like to underscore my comments by assuring you I have the utmost respect for real parachute troops.


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## Blindspot

bossi said:
			
		

> I've run across more back-stabbers and ill-disciplined louts from the QOR than ANY other unit, ever.



Sounds like a quote from one of those disgrunted, pompous officers who are always out to disaffect Major Sharpe.



			
				bossi said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, it seems that the "independent" characteristic of parachute troops has been taken to an extreme - one individual stated in a public forum that his motto was " F buddy before buddy F's you".
> 
> Another drunken fraud pretended that his lack of attention to detail and inability to properly plan ahead were his way of injecting "value-added fog of war" into training (e.g. he'd regularly have a "brilliant idea" Friday night getting onto the bus, as opposed to any of the planning meetings held weeks beforehand ...), while on more than one occasion I personally witnessed his excessing drinking cause him to be late for duty the next day (and then he'd laugh it off).



I've had similar experiences with members of the Tor Scots. They don't have a jump company. Perhaps the extreme cases you mention are highlighted simply because they wear a maroon beret.



			
				bossi said:
			
		

> I'd also point to some statistical evidence that can not be refuted - there are several other units in Toronto who are stronger and have a better track record than the QOR.   From this I deduce that the para role has not helped the QOR become a "better" unit.



What do you mean by "stronger" and "better track record"? What statistical evidence?



			
				bossi said:
			
		

> Finally, I'd also point out that I've worked alongside many other maroon berets (Canadian, US, British, and other countries) who have been excellent soldiers - some of the best I've ever met - and I include the Canadian Airborne Regiment - in comparison to them, the QOR's I'm talking about are an embarassment - thus, I'd like to underscore my comments by assuring you I have the utmost respect for real parachute troops.



I'm sure you will find your "embarassments" in those other units you mention as well.


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## bossi

Blindspot said:
			
		

> Sounds like a quote from one of those disgrunted, pompous officers who are always out to disaffect Major Sharpe.



Wow - you actually base your assessment of military competence on a TV program - that's awesome
(and I'm presuming you meant to type "disgruntled"?).   Pompous?   No.
Now, did your idle musing (perhaps a slur) refute any of my comments?  No.



			
				Blindspot said:
			
		

> I've had similar experiences with members of the Tor Scots. They don't have a jump company. Perhaps the extreme cases you mention are highlighted simply because they wear a maroon beret.



Hmmm ... let me think.   Is the topic of this thread "Tor Scots"?   No?   Then maybe the norms I've described pertain to those QORs I've encountered who wore a maroon beret ... since they're relevant to this thread.



			
				Blindspot said:
			
		

> What do you mean by "stronger" and "better track record"? What statistical evidence?



Perhaps "effective strength" wasn't described in Sharpe.
I don't recall the QOR winning the Kitching Trophy lately, or anything else for that matter.
And, the unit which sent the most troops on operations wasn't the QOR.



			
				Blindspot said:
			
		

> I'm sure you will find your "embarassments" in those other units you mention as well.



Yup, but I was pointing out that the QOR have more than their fair share of blades.
As such, I was speculating whether there might be a causative link between their maroon berets and a perceived systemic abundance of substandard personnel.


----------



## 4CDO PARA

Wow, what to say to all that. We obviously have two VERY different points of view on the matter.  I am sorry hear you seem to have been spoiled on a fine Regiment like the QOR, SIR.     If possible, I would like very much to be privy to the "statistical evidence that can not be refuted" proving that "there are several other units in Toronto who are stronger and have a better track record than the QOR". I have no interest in a pissing contest, quite on the contrary I have nothing to prove here ( even if I did, this would be the wrong thread to banter back and forth about who's daddy is tougher like children...or perhaps old men for that matter? ) . Actions speak louder than words and I have never been anything but proud of the performance I have been exposed to from the QOR. Nonetheless, those stats sound very interesting. Just to humour you, if you can't remember the QOR winning anything lately, either your memory is shot or you have just been minding your own unit, which you might consider doing now. Leave the questions about the QOR to the QOR instead of flooding this thread with your biased, jaded opinions based on extremely limited "alleged" experiences with select "anonymous" individuals. Sounds more like a *personal problem* to me, or perhaps a personality conflict that you're still upset about, rather than anything indicative proof of systemic problems with a whole company that produces "sub-standard troops". Get Real!  In addition, the QOR have won every inter-regimental competition to my recollection in the past 2 years, including the winter warfare race last year where the top finishing team was the Para Coy team, the other two QOR teams placed 3rd and 4th behind the 48th in 2nd place ( a fine and respectable regiment I might add ) . In the Queen's Cup this year the QOR beat the Qyrang in 5 out of 6 cometitions, BADLY. Perhaps we need to start inviting the TorScots?

AIRBORNE!

Jealousy is an ugly, ugly thing.


----------



## McG

Before we launch into a bun fight, I think it is safe to say that nobody here has information to show that the QOR produces soldiers that are individually better, on-par, or lesser than other reserve units.   I cannot compare their soldiering, and I cannot compare their ethos to reserve infantry in general.   If anyone really feels the need to know, maybe you can find statistics showing pass/fail rates by course in LFCA as a percentage of soldiers sent on course.   You could look up results of summary trials.     . . . but again, would this prove anything?

Regardless, I do not think that a parachute tasking confined within one unit provides reserve wide benefits to improve basic soldiering.  It does not even provide brigade wide or city wide benefits.


----------



## MikeM

Just thought that I might add, the QOR had the highest amount of soldiers in the top positions (1st,2nd ,3rd) on courses during ARC 2004 in Meaford this past summer.


----------



## 4CDO PARA

In reply to "Regardless, I do not think that a parachute tasking confined within one unit provides reserve wide benefits to improve basic soldiering.  It does not even provide brigade wide or city wide benefits." , I would have to wholeheartedly agree with McG. There should be more. Why have a unit with a para tasking when you can have a para unit? <---reference countless other threads on this topic. Funny how almost any post on anything para always comes back to that. We just won't let it go!  ;D


----------



## pbi

Ahhh-bossi the iconoclast! Now you've done it! Better roll out those statistics or you'll go down under a maroon wave of indignation!

Cheers.


----------



## McG

ABN RFN said:
			
		

> In reply to "Regardless, I do not think that a parachute tasking confined within one unit provides reserve wide benefits to improve basic soldiering. It does not even provide brigade wide or city wide benefits." , I would have to wholeheartedly agree with McG. There should be more. Why have a unit with a para tasking when you can have a para unit?


I don't see a reserve parachute unit having an impact on soldiering across the reserves either (neither positive nor negative).


----------



## Blindspot

bossi said:
			
		

> Wow - you actually base your assessment of military competence on a TV program - that's awesome



Assessing military competence? No. It was an idle musing on your obvious, personal dislike of the regiment. Perhaps I could have left out a couple of adjectives to save you from feeling insulted.



			
				bossi said:
			
		

> (and I'm presuming you meant to type "disgruntled"?).



Yes, thank you.



			
				bossi said:
			
		

> Hmmm ... let me think.   Is the topic of this thread "Tor Scots"?   No?   Then maybe the norms I've described pertain to those QORs I've encountered who wore a maroon beret ... since they're relevant to this thread.



But you've slurred the entire QOR based on a couple of examples, one of which was written in a signature on a forum and because they wore a maroon beret. If these were your worst examples than I believe all that does is attest to an angelic nature of the regiment. I could produce examples just as bad if not worse perpetrated by members of other regiments who do not have jump companies. Does that mean they're a bunch of backstabbers and undisciplined louts? 



			
				bossi said:
			
		

> Perhaps "effective strength" wasn't described in Sharpe.



Perhaps I missed that episode. 




			
				bossi said:
			
		

> Yup, but I was pointing out that the QOR have more than their fair share of blades.



And you have more irrefutable evidence to support this statement I presume. My guess is it's just conjecture.


----------



## Acorn

Reserve units have no business being "para tasked." It's a waste of resources, and the positive effect on recruiting is too local to be of any value.

It just gives 21-year-old Militia rats reason to pop attitude on guys who have the t-shirts.

How's that for iconoclastic?

Acorn
(Nomex, the invention of the century)


----------



## McG

. . . and parachute tasked units absorb all the reserve basic para positions that rightfully could be shared across the country (with possible nation wide recruiting value).


----------



## chrisp1j

Lets not get in a pissing contest here, its pretty obvious that most of what has been said here cannot be backed up... oh, except for the fact that the QOR pretty much tops every course and places extremely well in all that its personnel are involved in. Lay off the baseless regiment knocking and cheap shots, as look at the mess it has started in this otherwise informative thread.

On to new things: 

â Å“. . and parachute tasked units absorb all the reserve basic para positions that rightfully could be shared across the country (with possible nation wide recruiting value).â ?

I like that idea. I think that every-time the CPC needs jumpers to keep the pilots and support elements current, we should be contacting every regiment in Canada, to request jumpers, and flying them from Middleofnowhere Canada to Trenton, 3 days before the jumps (because we have to have CPC staff ensure that they are current because we all know that even their brigade doesn't have the ability or resources to make them current or keep them current).

Lets decentralize things a little more, and hire new personnel to organize it for us.

Oh, and a quick question: â Å“rightfullyâ ?? since when does any person or unit have rights in the military. Yes you have the right to have two pairs of boots (though they wont guarantee a correct fit), but past that, life isn't as fair as the term â Å“rightfullyâ ? would lead one to believe.


----------



## McG

Then share the courses with all the units in the "Golden Horseshoe" and still get an improved recruiting/retention tool that is not limited to one unit.



			
				chrisp1j said:
			
		

> I think that every-time the CPC needs jumpers to keep the pilots and support elements current, we should be contacting every regiment in Canada, to request jumpers, and flying them from Middleofnowhere Canada to Trenton, 3 days before the jumps (because we have to have CPC staff ensure that they are current because we all know that even their brigade doesn't have the ability or resources to make them current or keep them current).


Or, we could offer up more refresher jumps to personel from the three regular force light battalions, and those personel in other units that are expected to support those jump companies.



			
				chrisp1j said:
			
		

> since when does any person ... have rights in the military.


Every person has rights.  It's a Canadian thing.


----------



## chrisp1j

Your right, people have rights in the military, and I demonstrated that: we all get boots. No one has the "right" to take a jump course. You just have to get it if you can. 

As far as sharing with *all* the units in the area, well, it reminds me of how much I want a demolitions course, or a combat diver's course, or-well we all know where that one is going.


----------



## McG

Look at it this way then, if a reserve Engr has those courses and augments an overseas tour, then he can do refresher training with his BG and may use those skills overseas (this is an MOC thing, not a unit specific thing).  

The Basic Parachute course is not MOC specific.  Infantry, Cbt Engr, Sig, Medic, etc all can be employed on a parachute operation.  If a guy from the RHLI is para qualified and augments an overseas tour, then he can do refresher training with his BG and could jump operationally.  No different than a QOR guy.

But, so as to not offend your sensibilities for being denied combat diver, what if we were to spread the basic para positions amongst the infantry of the â Å“Golden Horseshoeâ ? area?


----------



## Infanteer

This thread is stupid.

People here have their panties bunched up over jumping out of a plane (don't worry, I've done it) that they seem to be forgetting that it's what's done on the ground that counts.

Tell me, all ye part-time disciples of Bellerophon, when is the last time your unit has been required to perform an Airborne drop?  What does wearing a different coloured hat and getting to show off a tee shirt really have to do with militia soldiering - which admittedly is meat-and-potato basics.

Giving reservist Infantry types jump training is like giving a reservist crewman an M-1 Abrahms gunnery course - real snazzy but probably not very useful to the career of a reservist soldier.

Personally, I'd rather see the money saved from giving Jump Courses to reservists - with the only real output being another thingy that guys can put on their DEU's for Parades - go towards developing skill sets more pertinant to the realities of the Reserves.  If we want to put money towards courses to reward switched on soldiers, I would prefer something along these lines:

---

_THE CANADIAN COMMANDO COURSE

Capt J.L. Binns

The Army is suffering a moral crisis. It is losing it's "combat mindset", that outlook of the profession that sets it apart from the rest of society. Combat mindset is the way of thinking that causes leaders to ask "will this make my unit more capable of defeating the enemy" or "Will my soldiers be tougher?" as opposed to what will this do to my career? or why bother, anyone can be uncomfortable". Indications that a combat mindset exists are
intense interest in weapons, and tactics, physical Fitness, combat survival and adventure training. Minor injuries are considered part of training, experimentation with methods and tools to defeat the enemy is encouraged and physical luxuries in the field are seen as weakness.

If the current decline in combativeness is not reversed quickly the army will soon be little more than a police force. One step toward instilling combat mindset into the corporate body of the army is to establish a school with the sole purpose of training soldiers mentally, physically and technically for close combat. I propose that the Army establish a "Commando Course" for this purpose.

AIM

The aim of the Commando Course shall he to indoctrinate soldiers with A combat mindset
and improving the armies ability to right. It will achieve it's goal by.

a.Instilling combat mindset through rigorous indoctrination, 
b.Vigorous training in close combat and covert mobility, 
c.Creating a big desired qualification to improve morale, 
d.Motivating soldiers to prepare themselves for a challenging course, 
e.Creating a test bed for infantry weapons, equipment and tactics. 
f.Creating a cadre of highly trained irregular warfare instructors. 

SCOPE

The course will be based on the World War 2 Commando Course run at Achnacarry,
Scotland. It is not a version of SAS selection, the U.S. Army Ranger program or Special Forces courses. It is a course in how to right. It is a combat skills course not a leadership course nor a unit selection device.

The course would be six weeks long and would be based at the CTC. It would he open to
any trained combat or combat support arm soldier who could pass the pre-course physical fitness test. Which would consist of the current combat swim test with all times and distances doubled, the 13,78 km battle fitness test in 1 hr 45 min minutes, 8 palm down pull ups and a bench press of the candidates body weight. Candidates would also have to fire the infantry PWT to marksman and complete all tests of elementary training on rifle platoon weapons and the pistol within 3 months of attending the Commando School.

The course would last 45 days (39 training, 3 admin, 2 travel days). Each training day
would consist of 16 training hours. The course content (with the percentage of course time devoted to each and approximate hours) would consist of the following:

a. Close Quarter Battle with small arms including training with pistols, M203, flame-throwers, jungle lanes, room clearing, night fighting, expedient weapons and unarmed combat (15.51/ol 97 hours).

b. Demolitions using issue, expedient and foreign explosives (12,5%/78 hours).

c. Combat Survival including resistance to interrogation and counter tracking dog techniques (14.5%/90 hours).

d. Watermanship including combat swimming and the use of assault and recce boats (6%/ 37 hours).

e. Mountaineering (19%/ 118 hours).

f. Combat Medicine including IVs, CPR, practical gunshot treatment and drug administration (2.5%1 16 hours).

g. Foreign Weapons including training on all Russian company level small arms, RPGs and automatic grenade launchers, G3, MG-31, M-60, SA-80, Steyr AUG, MPS, FNC1' and FAMAS Fl.(10%1 62 hours).

h. Live Fire Tactics including bunker,, building and trench clearing, section and platoon ambushes, attacks and counter ambush drills (12.5%/ 78 hours).

i. Helicopter Operations including ILZ marking, rappelling and fast roping. (3%/ 19 hours)

j. Tank Hunting with M72, RPG-7, V, mines and expedient weapons (4.50 %/ 28 hours).

k. Battle Indoctrination including close work with artillery, demolitions and gas (1%/ 6 hours).

l. Physical Training including cross country speed marches and assault courses (15%1 93 hours).


The course would he broken down into a number of phases:

Phase 1 (2 weeks)

Combat survival, mountaineering, watermanship, combat medicine

Phase 2 (2 weeks)

Demolitions, weapons, close' quarter battle, tank hunting, helicopter operations.

Phase 3 (2 weeks)

Weapons, demolitions, live fire tactics, battle indoctrination.

The school should have a number of foreign subject matter experts on staff to help ensure that the curriculum is first rate. Canadian staff would be expected to he graduates of Allied "combat" schools and would receive intensive preparation training over the course of a year. Classes would he based on platoons of 36 students. Five to six classes would be taught annually. The stringent entrance requirements will keep intake low. Staff would fill all platoon and section command slots on tactical exercises with students acting as team leaders. Safety distances would have to he modified by approximately 50 % to increase
realism. The number of safety staff required would need to be reduced as would the need
for special identification or rules preventing them from fitting in with the unit, for example prohibitions on the safety staff from camming up And carrying weapons. The ration scale and accommodation would be austere. There would be few amenities at the school. Students would train for war for six weeks and nothing else. The final exercise would consist of a platoon live fire air assault supported by artillery and attack helicopters followed by an attack on a bunker complex using demolitions, M72, M203 and flame throwers. Preferably, the requirement to climb a cliff could he fitted somewhere into the scenario.

On successful completion of the course the graduates would receive a ornate metallic
badge, similar to those awarded for the French Commando Courses, to be worn on dress
uniforms and DEUs and a subdued "Commando" flash to be worn on combat.

CONCLUSION

The establishment of the Commando School just might save the Army by stopping the rot.
It would mold the minds of junior leaders and, slowly rill units with tough combat trained soldiers with the correct combat mindset. Ideally in the future it would be expected that an infantry officer or sergeant major will have graduated from the Commando School and similar intensive training would become the norm throughout the Army._


----------



## bossi

ABN RFN said:
			
		

> ... We obviously have two VERY different points of view on the matter...



It's encouraging to see the fighting spirit of the QOR soldier remains undiminished - certainly, I've never once run across an unsatisfactory QOR pte or cpl - never.  And, as I've been reminded, it wasn't the ptes or cpls who hired the stripper for the mess, nor did they foul up vis-a-vis DWI, or fiscal mismanagement (in fact, they've been the whistle-blowers on more than one occasion).
However, the difference between individual augmentees at the soldier level and a formed coy lies in the upper echelon.

As with many other reserve units these days, there is a steady drain upon units when they continually lose good "draft picks" to the Regular Force or civilian careers - I'm sure the QOR loses their fair share of young soldiers to component transfers or civvie job offers, but this hurts the top of the pyramid.

Perhaps in the long run the systemic difficulties can be overcome by the infusion of incoming transfers (e.g. the new CO brings experience from The Watch and elsewhere, and a previous CO was RHLI), thus perhaps expanding the gene pool - numerous papers on organisational behaviour suggest this is the quickest if not surest way to reverse downwards spirals in systemic/institutional self-selection (i.e. "good leaders select good recruits, and unfortunately vice versa - e.g. 'yes men' hire more 'yes men' ..." - I'll dig up some titles/authors when I've got a minute, but right now I've got to look after the next generation).


----------



## Mr. Ted

Odd that anything para related strikes such a chord, both positive and negative, during discussions around the Canadian Military.  I believe we are all suffering a resource-defecit here - deep down we believe the resources available to the forces are so limited these days that we can't stand the thought of any being misspent.  These disucssions take on a sharper tone around times of new budget announcements, changes in government, and milita white-paper publications.

Should a para tasking exist in the reserves?  Should any specialty exist in the reserves?  Should any real warfighting skills be taught in the reserves? Are these not different branches of the same argument!  

The argument is this - how relevant are the reserves?  Are they a stand alone force that may be called upon?  If so, what's wrong with one of them being para-tasked?  Are they augmentees to a regular force?  If so, what's the point of them being para-tasked?  Are they  a framework around which to hang mobilization if the need arose?

I believe we may be arguing right past each other here as deep down, everyone probably has a slightly different perspective on what the reserves actually exist to do.  That question is asked every year and opinions vary wildly.

Should Britain maintain 4PARA?  Should the US retain a Marine Corps reserve element?  Are Marines not shock troops, trained to a higher degree than their Army counterparts, whose training and edge over other forces erodes if not maintained to a fevored pitch?  So why are there thousands of Marine reservists in existence who parade only once a month? 

What about the fact that within the Army National Guard, our American cousins maintain 3 or 4 Special Forces groups?  Special Forces part time, what a concept.  The Navy, in the early 90's added SEAL teams to the Naval Reserve.  

Maybe that's the difference - these units are mostly comprised of former regular - force members who semi-retire from active duty yet want to retain a connection to their original unit and maintaining their reserve status is a win-win situation for the forces as well as the indiviudal.

So here goes - should the QOR be a para reserve unit essentially filled by former reg force paras who want to maintain a connection to their unit, yet at a part - time level?  Or, in a world of larger budgets, could it be much more than that?

Mr. Ted


----------



## chrisp1j

*MCG:*


> "But, so as to not offend your sensibilities for being denied combat diver,"


Thanks (chuckles). 



> "what if we were to spread the basic para positions amongst the infantry of the â Å“Golden Horseshoeâ ? area?"



The only problem I see with that, is the same that I have mentioned before. To keep the guys current requires a substantial amount of resources. At the armoury, we have equpment that allows us to keep the guys current, and its a simple matter of grabbing a JM, and having him put you through the test on a Weds. (done as part of regular training, so nothing needs to be coordinated as far as hiring a bus, etc.) before a jump. 

Our role right now is to support the CPC, so making their life more complicated, would mean we have failed in our task. If keeping guys current was simpler, that idea would be more feasible, but it really is a matter of logistics. Is there a simpler way around it? Probably not, but feel free to brainstorm and shoot out ideas.

[Moderator note:  Typographical edit only - excessive "white space" removed - no content altered]


----------



## Mr. Ted

Quote - So here goes - should the QOR be a para reserve unit essentially filled by former reg force paras who want to maintain a connection to their unit, yet at a part - time level?  Or, in a world of larger budgets, could it be much more than that? - Endquote

Any more opinions? I can't believe we've exhausted this yet!

Mr. Ted


----------



## chrisp1j

If a jumper from the regs wanted to be in the military after his regular force time, wanted to jump, wanted to live in Toronto, and had the time to commit to the reserve, he's probably already in. There just aren't enough guys to support that. 

In a world of larger budgets (and it would have to be pretty substantial), then there would be more former regular force in the reserve, because there would be more former regular force.


----------



## McG

Mr. Ted said:
			
		

> Any more opinions? I can't believe we've exhausted this yet!



1) A 32 Bde Para Coy that draws from all the 32 Bde units (not just one).

2) Use members of the regular force parachute companies to support CPC skill maintenance (hell, I have no doubt that 3 VP would love more chances to jump from Hercs instead of repeatedly using Griffons).  Nice thing about the aircraft is that they can fly to the soldiers.

3) Use Basic Para courses to Sp skill maintenance & JM trg (this is not thinking outside the box, this is actually done).


----------



## squealiox

A jump tasking can be a real mixed blessing for a Militia unit. Back in the Stone Age, when I was in the Loyal Eddies' jump platoon, I recall the morale was quite strong, and most of the the troops in the platoon were fairly switched on. But I also recall the odd individual who seemed more interested in showing up for cas para days than in jumping into exercise in, say, Wainwright or the Arctic. These guys (definitely in the minority) didn't stick around for very long, once they discovered that the basic para course was just the easiest part of the deal. And there were also a lot of pretty good troops in the "leg" platoon who, for whatever reason, never took a jump course.
Anyway, the regiment didn't fall apart when we went back to wearing green berets (94?95?), although it did smart a bit at first. Nobody stopped driving the body on ex, and nobody started being a plug.
That said, whatever the tactical rationale for para capability nowadays, its value as a morale-builder is indisputable.


----------



## KevinB

MCG said:
			
		

> 2) Use members of the regular force parachute companies to support CPC skill maintenance (heck, I have no doubt that 3 VP would love more chances to jump from Hercs instead of repeatedly using Griffons).   Nice thing about the aircraft is that they can fly to the soldiers.



Or other jump qualified reg force pers in operational units that cant get jumps...


----------



## McG

KevinB said:
			
		

> Or other jump qualified reg force pers in operational units that cant get jumps...


Hey, that would be me!
I support Kevin's proposal.


----------



## KevinB

Join the club - my roomate (a LER) got two jumpr pre Christmas (one a Night jump too) while we got NADA...

 I guess the 1km from 3VP to 1VP was to tough for us to negotiate  :


----------



## IPC10

I was under the impression, and this impression was coming from CPC, that the key reason behind the QOR jump tasking was to support training at CPC.

Not some behind the door method of delivery course to augment the Reg Force.

It's not like the 'old days' when the LERs had a tasking, and I think the Westies also, its a geographical support one.

Then again CPC also wanted hard jump positions in the arty, engrs, medics....


----------



## 4CDO PARA

Officially the QOR is tasked to provide 66 Jumpers to support the CPC. Instead of simply wasting a jump on a BTAT or LTAT by jumping bare ass and going home, we exploit the opportunity to train our over 100 jumpers in the Airborne role and maintain the Airborne capability in our Regiment. Our original tasking was to support 3CDO and although the official tasking has changed since the disbandment, our approach has not. We take every opportunity to cross train with the 3RCR Para Coy in order to augment and update our capabilities and most of our Airborne training regimen and SOP's are adopted from them (as they were in the past from 3CDO). The unit still runs an extensive program of all the essential Airborne specific training previously associated with courses like the AIC and has specific qualification requirements for awarding the White wings, maroon beret etc. I believe this keeps the Airborne spirit very much alive and well in the QOR in terms of fierce competitiveness and the drive to be the best. There is much, much more to it than having a jump tasking to be just cas para for the CPC. Although our training schedule and tempo is quite admittedly limited by the fact that we are Reserve Force and could never match the extensive training program of the reg force, I think people often forget the depth of personnel resources that are present in the QOR Para Coy. We have a large number of Jumpers in key positions that bring their experience and expertise from previously serving in the Regs, in the CAR etc. Our unit has Pathfinders, JM's, P.I's etc etc etc. We are not your 'run-of-the-mill' Reserve Regt that simply get to jump more than others.


----------



## Jarnhamar

> We are not your 'run-of-the-mill' Reserve Regt that simply get to jump more than others.



Do you guys still wear your maroon berets when it's -50 outside?


----------



## 4CDO PARA

HAHAHAHAHA. Why YES, occasionally we DO.  > Only if someone else is watching, then we pull out the touques when they leave.


----------



## Jungle

KevinB said:
			
		

> Join the club - my roomate (a LER) got two jumpr pre Christmas (one a Night jump too) while we got NADA...
> 
> I guess the 1km from 3VP to 1VP was to tough for us to negotiate   :


I encountered this problem while REO (as a Sgt) in our 3rd Batt. When we had the opportunity, I would call the other units OPS Os in the BDE to offer a number of jumps on a given day. The OPS O in our 1st Batt once asked me if this was a tasking; I explained to him that I was offering some seats for some of the Troops in the Batt to jump. He told me that without a BDE tasking order, nobody would go...   : 
Guess what, I never called the 1st Batt after that to offer seats.
Most of the time, the problem is with idiots like this.


----------



## KevinB

Jungle - Funny I can see that happening here too...


----------



## Yeoman

seen it with my short time in the regs too
"oh look there's 3 RCR doing a c-130 bare ass jump on anzio, and me still without a herc jump in my jump log yet"
I should have listened to my staff at battleschool and went 3. that'll teach me.
really I think it comes down to because they wear a different coloured beret then the rest of the infantry MO's, they tend to stick out more. I've got several good friends that are right switched on in that unit, and I've also heard stories of one guy lipping off to a squirel in meaford. 
it all comes down like I said, their beret is maroon.
I enjoyed my time that I worked with them in 03 when I jumped with them in stalwart guardian. just wish I didn't mess my leg up on the landing, but oh well it happens. for the very little time that we had for training (one weekend) they crammed in as much info as they could, I still remember most of it pretty well on how to pack crap.
Greg


----------



## GO!!!

_Naturally reservists could never match the training program or intensity of the Regular force, such is the nature of the reserves _ 

Credit where credit is due... indeed. 

I would first like to point out the often, and accurately so, disparging treatment that the "nature of the reserves" garners, though not so in this medium due to the "nature" of so many of the participants.

That a militia unit even has maroon berets, and sucks up perfectly good jump positions, pay and aircraft from the regular force - that is, those who do it for more than a hobby - is a travesty. 

The fact that you have a maroon beret is a slap in the face to those of us who labored for several years - full time - not just tuesday nights to earn a position. 

Dont confuse yourself with the soldier - citizens - not the other way around, who do this job full time - and who have to show up every day. If you want to call yourself a paratrooper - come up from the minor leagues and sign up for the big time - but dont tell me you earned what you have. 

Also - I have yet to meet one of you big talkers in person - everyone has alot to say in defence of the casual army when they are online, but when a few show up for exercise GD, they clam up pretty quick.

If you feel the need to reply - ask yourself - would you say the same thing to a PI in Trenton - if so - give'er - if not - sum up.


----------



## COBRA-6

GO!!! said:
			
		

> _Naturally reservists could never match the training program or intensity of the Regular force, such is the nature of the reserves _
> 
> Credit where credit is due... indeed.
> 
> I would first like to point out the often, and accurately so, disparging treatment that the "nature of the reserves" garners, though not so in this medium due to the "nature" of so many of the participants.
> 
> That a militia unit even has maroon berets, and sucks up perfectly good jump positions, pay and aircraft from the regular force - that is, those who do it for more than a hobby - is a travesty.
> 
> The fact that you have a maroon beret is a slap in the face to those of us who labored for several years - full time - not just tuesday nights to earn a position.
> 
> Dont confuse yourself with the soldier - citizens - not the other way around, who do this job full time - and who have to show up every day. If you want to call yourself a paratrooper - come up from the minor leagues and sign up for the big time - but dont tell me you earned what you have.
> 
> Also - I have yet to meet one of you big talkers in person - everyone has alot to say in defence of the casual army when they are online, but when a few show up for exercise GD, they clam up pretty quick.
> 
> If you feel the need to reply - ask yourself - would you say the same thing to a PI in Trenton - if so - give'er - if not - sum up.



Wow, helmets on for the RegF vs PRes flame war! 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion I guess... but you know what they say about opinions...


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## Infanteer

Wow, all this over a hat.

Go Team!


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## bossi

Um ... er ... well ... Ya know what ... ?
The expression "hoisted by your own petard" comes to mind ...



			
				GO!!! said:
			
		

> Your best asset to go places in the Army is a positive attitude. No - one wants to employ or work with an arrogant complainer.



The fat lady has sung.


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## I_am_John_Galt

For those that are dying to get on a jump course, since no one has mentioned it, unless things have changed, and IIRC, there is only one version of the Basic Para course: QOR Riflemen went to the Reg. Force jump school.  For guys that CT'd to the Reg. Force, the course counted (unlike most of the other Militia courses).  I would think that this would help you get posted to a 3rd Batallion after your SQ/MOC training (but what do I know).

Of course I wouldn't want to be the guy showing up for for his first day of BMQ with a maroon beret!!!!  :skull:


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## McG

Maroon berets come off and geen one go back on when an individual leaves the parachute tasked unit/sub-unit.   So, nobody need fear arriving for BMQ in a maroon beret while posted on the BTL.


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## patrick666

LOL Infanteer, I nearly spit out my iced tea all over the computer....


Bhahaha...


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## Sappo

GO!!! said:
			
		

> _Naturally reservists could never match the training program or intensity of the Regular force, such is the nature of the reserves _
> 
> Credit where credit is due... indeed.
> 
> I would first like to point out the often, and accurately so, disparging treatment that the "nature of the reserves" garners, though not so in this medium due to the "nature" of so many of the participants.
> 
> That a militia unit even has maroon berets, and sucks up perfectly good jump positions, pay and aircraft from the regular force - that is, those who do it for more than a hobby - is a travesty.
> 
> The fact that you have a maroon beret is a slap in the face to those of us who labored for several years - full time - not just tuesday nights to earn a position.
> 
> Dont confuse yourself with the soldier - citizens - not the other way around, who do this job full time - and who have to show up every day. If you want to call yourself a paratrooper - come up from the minor leagues and sign up for the big time - but dont tell me you earned what you have.
> 
> Also - I have yet to meet one of you big talkers in person - everyone has alot to say in defence of the casual army when they are online, but when a few show up for exercise GD, they clam up pretty quick.
> 
> If you feel the need to reply - ask yourself - would you say the same thing to a PI in Trenton - if so - give'er - if not - sum up.



Now I can never hope to be para-qualified... shoulder wouldn't like it so much, so this is just a small defence for us res folk...

Why the big kick to us anyways? I know at least one very nice and very CAPABLE para-qualified Sgt. that I'm sure if he felt like it, could roll with the reg boys any day of the week.


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## GO!!!

Fine, fine,

If my job was so easy that any militia sgt could do it, I'm sure that there would be no shortage of qualified pers to fill the empty jump positions in my coy.

The fact of the matter is that there are shortages of healthy(not broken), qualified pers. 

SO. If you are so intent on telling me that this is nothing but a "kick" bear in mind that there are former reservists in the regs - and in the Para Coy. The ones I know are very good soldiers. But when you ask them about their res "experience" they laugh and roll their eyes. 

I speak from my experiences, not some pre - concieved notion, and if you still think I'm wrong, then put your $ where your mouth is and join. I guarantee that you will see the reserves in a different light once you have worked in the full time army for even a year with an operational unit.

If you are'nt prepared to join, form up with the other chairborne coffeemandos and armchair general my job at will - but do it quietly, I have work to do.


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## wack-in-iraq

GO!!! said:
			
		

> Fine, fine,
> 
> If my job was so easy that any militia sgt could do it, I'm sure that there would be no shortage of qualified pers to fill the empty jump positions in my coy.
> 
> The fact of the matter is that there are shortages of healthy(not broken), qualified pers.
> 
> SO. If you are so intent on telling me that this is nothing but a "kick" bear in mind that there are former reservists in the regs - and in the Para Coy. The ones I know are very good soldiers. But when you ask them about their res "experience" they laugh and roll their eyes.
> 
> I speak from my experiences, not some pre - concieved notion, and if you still think I'm wrong, then put your $ where your mouth is and join. I guarantee that you will see the reserves in a different light once you have worked in the full time army for even a year with an operational unit.
> 
> If you are'nt prepared to join, form up with the other chairborne coffeemandos and armchair general my job at will - but do it quietly, I have work to do.



agreed, 100%, as a former mo' man turned regular i know what it is like to be in both, and i gotta say, the mo is a cake walk. i didnt know what the army was until i joined the regulars, because the army is not something that can be understood one night a week and one weekend a month. 
all this talk about a maroon beret just being a hat..... obviously you dont have one. tell ya what, go tell that to some of the old boys down at the legion and see how much they like your opinion.  it is something that is not just given out, you need to earn it everyday you put it on.


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## Michael Dorosh

Probably time to lock this up - if the Reserve Force is a "cakewalk" compared to the Regular Force, perhaps you gentlemen need to 

a) try and understand why we have a Reserve Force
b) come up with some specific criticisms in order to be taken seriously

If the Reserve Force was able to train five days a week, guess what - it would be the Regular Force!

I'm not seeing much understanding from GO!!! of what the Reserve Force is supposed to do. Did you have some specific suggestions as to the type of training they should be doing, and results they should be achieving?  That might be constructive.


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## combat_medic

GO!: I personally met a kid with less than 6 months TI who had a cadet para course and the moment he finished battle school, was put into a hard jump position, and was wearing a maroon beret. He was a complete tool, and was a c*cky bugger who thought he was God's gift to the military. I would FAR rather serve with a reserve Sgt with 20 years TI and several tours (not to mention a few hundred jumps under his belt) any day of the week than trust my life to some punk kid with a chip on his shoulder.

The QOR get to jump as often as they do because they are within a stone's throw of Trenton. The logistics make a lot of sense since all the Hercs and the entire training facility is located there. Despite all this, the Reg Force units with hard para positions still get first pick at every course, except the one cadet serial run every year... and you made no mention of having cadets on the course you revere so highly.

These reservists are not taking anything away from you or your unit, so I wonder why you feel so threatened by them.


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## McG

GO!!! said:
			
		

> Constructive Criticisms, and possible fixes;
> 
> Follow this link for more.


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## GO!!!

Not threatened by reservists, just frustrated that those who dont put the hard miles in get the BBQ at the end.

As for your mo' Sgt, 20 yrs TI is not really that, is it? How many days a year did he work? 20, maybe? So he actually might have 2 or three years - at the outside, unless he was regular at some point. As for all of the Class B and C, I'm sorry, but time in the BOR and range control just is'nt the same as 20 years of getting up at 0630 for PT - year round and going on EVERY ex, even if you dont want to.

As for the punk kid with a chip on his shoulder, he joined - all the way, you did'nt. He's already better.We can work with someone cocky, maybe even give him a reason to act differently, because he can be improved every day. You can't. You can only be improved nominally on the days that you choose to show up. In addition - guys like that often just need some good hard soldiering to know what it's all about - ever done a two week light patrol ex after jumping in? did'nt thik so. That kid probably has, and now at least he has a reason to be cocky.


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## Jarnhamar

The reg force is tougher than the reserves shit is pretty old guys.   Comparing one for one is just dumb. Infantry can outsection attack cooks. Of course they can. Read the boards and you'll probably see 99% of the people agree that the reserves are not on par with the regular force. Why do some feel   the need to point out how much 'better' the regular force is than the reserves? People with a head on their shoulder know the score, why not leave it at that.


As for the maroon beret being just a hat. I don't think it's about people trying to take away from the respect and honour of the maroon beret or saying it's an easy course. It seems (personally atleast) it's more about pointing out that some soldiers feel wearing a maroon beret is the be all end all of being a soldier.   I think cadets and reservists sometimes think wearing a maroon makes them look a lot better than they actually perform. They think wearing jump wings makes them a better soldier, when it doesn't. I figure there is a huge difference between having a pair of jump wings and being in a regular force jump company.   Jump companies are going to attract a lot of good troops, and some doorknobs too.



> Not threatened by reservists, just frustrated that those who dont put the hard miles in get the BBQ at the end.



Can this be said for the whole army? The trades that make it to the BBQ first are usually the ones who remained dry the whole ex.


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## McG

GO!!! said:
			
		

> As for the punk kid with a chip on his shoulder, he joined - all the way, you did'nt. He's already better.


GO!!!, 
Your tone and suggestion that reservists are lesser people is crossing the line.  I suggest you revist the site conduct guidelines.  Some of your points may be valid, but your presentation sucks.


			
				Mike Bobbitt said:
			
		

> *Expectation of Respect between Users*
> 
> All visitors, regardless of age, rank or experience are to be treated as equal unless their conduct dictates otherwise. That means the veteran servicemember and the green private are to assume that they have as much to benefit from the other as they have to offer the other until a reason to contrary is made known. Age, nor number of years excuses anyone from behaving in a manner that isn't civil and polite.
> ...
> 
> *Posting to the Boards*
> 
> *You are responsible for everything that you post and the tone in which it is posted.*


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## Infanteer

Teamwork is all about attitude, my friends (I've been on both sides of the fence, before I get flamed for being a "one-day-a-week" guy).


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