# Remembrance Day:  National holiday?/"Veterans' Day"? (merged)



## meni0n

NATIONAL HONOUR FOR WAR DEAD

By BRETT CLARKSON - TORONTO SUN


A Toronto Liberal MP is calling on his fellow MPs to make Remembrance Day a national holiday. Dan McTeague, the MP for Pickering-Scarborough East, said entrenching Nov. 11 as a national holiday is a "no-brainer" because Canada needs a "firm and concrete testament" to the country's veterans and war dead. 

"I think it's an excellent idea, an idea whose time has come," McTeague said. "And I would invite any backbench member of Parliament on the opposition or the government side to move a motion that November 11 be considered a national holiday." 

McTeague's membership on the Privy Council prevents him from introducing bills in Parliament, so he's encouraging another MP to bring forward a Remembrance Day private member's bill. 

"Here is an opportunity for an enterprising young member of Parliament of any political stripe," McTeague said. "I think there has to be some direction given to a formal, permanent and long-lasting tribute to our fallen comrades, who by land, air and sea, gave us the country we have today." 

As it stands now, Remembrance Day is observed differently across the country because holidays have traditionally been a provincial matter. While some provinces have designated the day a statutory holiday, others, like Ontario, haven't. 

Bloc Quebecois MP Andre Bellavance's refusal to provide Canadian flags to a Royal Canadian Legion in his riding is reason enough to emphasize Remembrance Day as a national holiday, McTeague said. 

"The gesture of that one selfish member, that one twisted member of the Bloc, is probably a good reason we should look at a national holiday." 

The Legion has said it doesn't advocate making the day a statutory holiday in the provinces where it isn't, as long as remembering the war dead remains the focus of the day.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/RemembranceDay/2004/11/08/705839.html


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## JasonH

I'm all for it


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## Bograt

I was under the impression that it was a national holiday. Where isn't it ?


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## Lance Wiebe

It is not a National holiday.

Some provinces have enacted legislation making it a provincial holiday.

The part that sucks about it is that all federal employees get the day off, with pay, so they get a "free" holiday that the average Canadian worker does not.  

Our National Holidays are:
New Years day
Good Friday
Victoria Day
Canada Day
Labour Day
Thanksgiving
Christmas Day; and
Boxing Day


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## stukirkpatrick

I wouldn't mind it being a holiday in ON at all...  I had to move a course exam (scheduled for 11:30) to the afternoon so that I could attend the cenotaph ceremony with my unit...


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## HollywoodHitman

An idea who's time has come. There are those who look at it as  another paid shopping day.


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## scm77

I actually think it's a bad idea to make it a national holiday.  

If you make it one people will just be happy that they have the day off of work and will forget what Remembrance Day is all about.

My $.02


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## winchable

Boxing day is a national holiday?


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## Storm

scm77 said:
			
		

> I actually think it's a bad idea to make it a national holiday.
> 
> If you make it one people will just be happy that they have the day off of work and will forget what Remembrance Day is all about.
> 
> My $.02



I'm kind of curious as to how you figure giving people the time to attend a ceremony would make them less likely to do just that. How exactly does going about work like it's any other day set the day apart from every other day? 

If Victoria day wasn't a holiday, I bet that even fewer kids would ask "what's Victoria day for?" and find out the answer. BC has Nov 11 as a holiday, and the cenotaph ceremony is one of the best attended events in my community, from the 90+ year-olds down to the infants (there's a lot of parents that bring their kids out   ). I'm positive that at least half of those people would not be able to be there (nor be there with their kids to explain what's going on) if it wasn't a holiday. The boss just wouldn't let them take the time off, and the kids would be in school, which may or may not have a decent ceremony at 1100hrs.

I'd say it's worth a letter to my MP to support the idea.


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## SHELLDRAKE!!

As much as I would like to say it should be a holiday, I think people would treat it as a buck shee day off to sleep in.If you keep the kids in school and devote all school activities on Nov 11 to educating about remembrance, they will then have a much better understanding of november 11 th.Dont get me wrong, my kids will always be pulled out of school on nov 11 cause I can teach them better than some school marm ever could.


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## pbi

Better to leglislate that employers must give time to attend a Cenotaph service, much as they must give time to vote if required. Another day off will be treated just like that: another day off. I'm with the Legion on this one. Cheers.


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## NMPeters

I have no objection to making it a day off from work, but I really object to using the term "holiday" to describe this day. The word is defined as "a day of festivity or recreation when no work is done". I don't know what other word can be used, but I really don't like it being called a "holiday".


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## trebor8301

It should be a day off for everyone, my brother works at the bank and where i work i think i'm the only one who stoped for our minute of silence at my work place , last year . i cant belive that boxing day is a holiday it show how much our government dosent care about our troops,not to mention underfunded!


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## scm77

Storm said:
			
		

> I'm kind of curious as to how you figure giving people the time to attend a ceremony would make them less likely to do just that.



Because I think that the average person wouldn't use it to attend a memorial ceremony.  They would just use it as a free day off of work.

If everyone was going to go to a ceremony I would be all for the idea.


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## Goober

You can't force things upon people. The only thing you can do is give the ones who are interested the option. Right now since its not a national holiday, some people who are interested, don't have the option.


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## foerestedwarrior

i think if some ones is going to go to a ceremony at all, they will find a way.


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## loyalcana

What about designating another day some sort of national veterans day like Australia and New Zealand's ANZAC day?


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## Yeoman

ah I'll be working it for at least the next 17 years, so it won't bother me either way.
but I ain't too sure if it should be a national holiday, I'm one of those fence sitters that all you people hate.
Greg


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## X Royal

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that all provinces except Ontario and Quebec have Nov. 11 as a stat. day off work.  With the politics in Quebec I'm not susprized but whats up with Ontario. Before anyone tries to blame the current gov. lets not forget ALL 3 PARTIES have had a chance to change this and have done nothing. :rage:


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## the 48th regulator

pbi said:
			
		

> Better to leglislate that employers must give time to attend a Cenotaph service, much as they must give time to vote if required. Another day off will be treated just like that: another day off. I'm with the Legion on this one. Cheers.



I totally agree.   I would bet the attendance at ceremonies would swell, as there would be no excuse whatsoever.


tess


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## THEARMYGUY

X Royal said:
			
		

> Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that all provinces except Ontario and Quebec have Nov. 11 as a stat. day off work.   With the politics in Quebec I'm not surprised but whats up with Ontario. Before anyone tries to blame the current gov. lets not forget ALL 3 PARTIES have had a chance to change this and have done nothing. :rage:



There are indeed only the 2 provinces that don't have Nov 11th as a general holiday.  It really is too bad it has not yet been changed to a holiday.  I can agree that some would not use the holiday as intended, but what about all those who would?  I will be at the cenotaph either way.

Cheers!! 

The Army Guy  :warstory:


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## rmacqueen

The online petition to have Remembrance Day declared a national holiday is gaining momentum.  There are currently over 200 signatures and it is growing at a rate of 20-30 a day.  We need to keep the ball rolling by spreading the word to everyone we know.  Let's keep the pressure on the government to do what is right.

*http://www.petitiononline.com/nov11th/petition.html*


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## sm0ke

Personally, I think its shameful that it isn't already a national holiday.  
Signed.


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## FredDaHead

sm0ke said:
			
		

> Personally, I think its shameful that it isn't already a national holiday.
> Signed.



I think it's a shameful but quite indicative testament to our society that the death of a few females gunned down by a madman with a grudge (Polytechnique.. just wait for the Dawson thing to be a national "day of rememberance") is considered more important than the deaths of thousands of our soldiers.


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## sm0ke

Sadly, you're probably right.  Not to take anything away from the significance of that event, but I don't believe it had anything near the same level of impact to our country as a whole.  Remembering a specific event such as the murders at L'Ecole Polytechnic, while noble and very much necessary, is one thing.  Paying tribute to the thousands of people that built our nation's international reputation, and provided us with the freedoms and privileges we now enjoy (and often abuse) to me is on a totally different plateau, and should be recognized as such. 

Edit:  Typo(s)


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## jollyjacktar

Thanks for bringing this up. Signed.


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## Kat Stevens

sm0ke said:
			
		

> Sadly, you're probably right.  Not to take anything away from the significance of that event, but I don't believe it had anything near the same level of impact to our country as a whole.  Remembering a specific event such as the murders at L'Ecole Polytechnic, while noble and very much necessary, is one thing.  Paying tribute to the thousands of people that built our nation's international reputation, and provided us with the freedoms and privileges we now enjoy (and often abuse) to me is on a totally different plateau, and should be recognized as such.
> 
> Edit:  Typo(s)



The death of 10 people is a tragedy, the death of a few thousand is a statistic.... paraphrasing someone, badly,  I'm sure.
Signed it 5 days ago.


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## sm0ke

...Stalin I think


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## QM

I actually don't think it should be a holiday.  Currently, downtown cores shut down for the parades on 11 November, and in many (most?) schools and offices, a moment of silence is observed at 1100hours. At the very least, this causes young students to recognize that "something" happened on 11 November that is meaningful, and they will remember the solemnity of the moment of silence.

 If 11 November becomes a national holiday, all that will end.  The children will be out playing at 1100hrs, and of course won't be bothered to pause and take note of what happened, so in one generation, we will have lost the habit of pausing at 11/11/11.  No one will be at work to peer out their windows at the veterans parade around the cenotaph in their city, or to actually leave their offices to attend the parade, as many do now.  No, 11 November will simply become another long weekend - another chance to have a BBQ or to maybe close the cottage or watch a football game.  The impact will be lost - most Canadians will simply take a day off work and not be bothered to remember or acknowledge why they get to go hunting on a Tuesday, or go shopping in the States for a long weekend in November.  The only people who will put any effort into the day, are us, of course.  But by providing people the opportunity to pause during their schoolday or workday to reflect on the occasion, we keep the memories alive.


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## armyvern

QM said:
			
		

> I actually don't think it should be a holiday.  Currently, downtown cores shut down for the parades on 11 November, and in many (most?) schools and offices, a moment of silence is observed at 1100hours. At the very least, this causes young students to recognize that "something" happened on 11 November that is meaningful, and they will remember the solemnity of the moment of silence.
> 
> If 11 November becomes a national holiday, all that will end.  The children will be out playing at 1100hrs, and of course won't be bothered to pause and take note of what happened, so in one generation, we will have lost the habit of pausing at 11/11/11.  No one will be at work to peer out their windows at the veterans parade around the cenotaph in their city, or to actually leave their offices to attend the parade, as many do now.  No, 11 November will simply become another long weekend - another chance to have a BBQ or to maybe close the cottage or watch a football game.  The impact will be lost - most Canadians will simply take a day off work and not be bothered to remember or acknowledge why they get to go hunting on a Tuesday, or go shopping in the States for a long weekend in November.  The only people who will put any effort into the day, are us, of course.  But by providing people the opportunity to pause during their schoolday or workday to reflect on the occasion, we keep the memories alive.



I've got to disagree with your doomsday predictions for this. I live in a province where the 11th is recognized as a holiday...and let me assure you that a heck of a lot of those kids...and their parents can be found at the Cenotaph on November 11th.


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## Mike Baker

It should be a national holiday, and that's that. (my personal opinion)


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## condor888000

Signed. Number 298. Its getting there.


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## military granny

Signed  # 297 and sent on to everyone I know


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## FredDaHead

So it's cool for the death of 12 (wasn't it?) women to have that much more importance (ALL Canadian flags at half-mast, etc) than the death of tens of thousands of soldiers/sailors/airmen, because there's a chance people won't pause at exactly 1111, and will instead spend the day hearing about our soldiers/sailors/airmen through said football games and whatnot? Wow, you really got a weird conception of rememberance, don't you? I'd much rather have people spend the day watching football and having little vignettes on TV about past wars and ads and having the announcers thank our troops, than have everyone stop for a minute and then go on business as usual.

I say, if events like Polytechnique are going to have such importance for the government, 9/11 should be a holiday as well, and Rememberance Day should have it's own long weekend. (Or a few days if it falls in the middle of the week)


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## Bruce Monkhouse

I'm torn on this just because of my past experiences. 
My Father was the 'head mop' at a local high school and being a proud WW2 veteran he would give the Remembrance Day speech in the gymnasium packed with over 1000 kids whom he always held spellbound. I never had the chance to hear his speeches[ already in] but the reason I know how much effect his words had on them is the fact that many times I have run into people whom were those very students and that's one of the things that sticks out in their minds when my Father comes up in conversation.

Just think of all those kids every year sleeping in and playing video games instead of hearing how it was 'over there'.


P.S.......One of my prized possesions is a ratty folded-up copy of one of those speeches.


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## Strike

> The children will be out playing at 1100hrs, and of course won't be bothered to pause and take note of what happened, so in one generation, we will have lost the habit of pausing at 11/11/11.



God forbid we put the responsibility of teaching children a bit of history on the parents.

My personal Nov 11th tradition?  Parade of course, maybe have a few drinks at the legion.  Then go home, get something nice and warm to drink ('cause I'm usually still frozen from the parade) and watch "Bridge Over the River Kwai" or some other movie of that ilk.  It may be "The Great Escape" this year.

I also concur that it should be a holiday.  Although we may all gripe about NS being slightly backwards (see the forum on Sunday shopping) they certainly got that one right.  The father of my brother-in-law was a bombardier (of Tirpitz fame a-la Damnbusters) and every year he brings his boys to the cemetery and tells them about their grandfather.  They go home and he pulls out the log books, photos, etc and just talk about what it was all about, and how things are similar and different today.


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## medaid

I know this is slightly off topic...However... I personaly believe that schools especially High Schools should rewrite their cirriculum so that it includes more Canadian Military History. This should include things like the The Boer War, WWI, WWII, Korean War, Iraq 1, all the peacekeeping missions and Afghanistan. It should properly explain the history and the importance of how every event has shaped our country. 

I dont know...maybe have a dedicated military professor rotate around in a district? Preferably a veteran? Just a thought...


BTW: I signed. It's there.


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## Signalman150

I think it should be a holiday as well.  I've worked in the private sector for over twenty years, and have often had to deal with firms that don't give Remembrance day off.

the first time it happened was in Yellowknife.  A memo was circulated in the office reminding all employees that Nov 11 was a regular work day.  I took the memo, scrawled "Lest We Forget" on it with a hi-liter, and posted it beside my desk.  Got a few raised eyebrows, but the boss didn't bite.  I snuck out that morning to attend the service. When I moved back south and rejoined the PRes, I took a day of annual vacation to parade.

These days I just mention to the boss that I'll be gone a couple of hours, and she's okay with it. The only down side is that I don't get an opportunity to partake of post-service festivities, since I head back to work right after the ceremony. I would prefer having some time to socialize, and spend time with the vets.

Remembrance Day was a school holiday in BC back when I was in the cadets, but we always had an assembly in the gym the day before.  I would expect--if it became a national holiday--the same thing would happen again. So, even if they stay home on Nov 11 (playing their video games), they will still likely be exposed to a school organized service.

And yes, I've signed.


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## Cdn Blackshirt

I think I was #283 the other day....


Matthew.


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## career_radio-checker

QM said:
			
		

> I actually don't think it should be a holiday.  Currently, downtown cores shut down for the parades on 11 November, and in many (most?) schools and offices, a moment of silence is observed at 1100hours. At the very least, this causes young students to recognize that "something" happened on 11 November that is meaningful, and they will remember the solemnity of the moment of silence.
> 
> If 11 November becomes a national holiday, all that will end.  The children will be out playing at 1100hrs, and of course won't be bothered to pause and take note of what happened, so in one generation, we will have lost the habit of pausing at 11/11/11.  No one will be at work to peer out their windows at the veterans parade around the cenotaph in their city, or to actually leave their offices to attend the parade, as many do now.  No, 11 November will simply become another long weekend - another chance to have a BBQ or to maybe close the cottage or watch a football game.  The impact will be lost - most Canadians will simply take a day off work and not be bothered to remember or acknowledge why they get to go hunting on a Tuesday, or go shopping in the States for a long weekend in November.  The only people who will put any effort into the day, are us, of course.  But by providing people the opportunity to pause during their schoolday or workday to reflect on the occasion, we keep the memories alive.



I have to agree with QM. In the US, words of "Memorial long weekend" and "Memorial Day Sale" have already polluted the real meaning of rememberance. Two minutes at the cenotaph, I think, would be more appropriate and sincere than a whole day off. It reminds me of the Biblical tale of the little homeless girl who put her only two penies into the donation basket and the rich man, who followed, put in a whole sack of cash. God teaches that he prefered the little girl's donation because it was all she had and she was sincere about it while the man just made his donation for posterity.  The moral of the story is that sometimes two heart-felt penies is worth more than a bundle of indiscriminate cash.
Still confused? (So am I. I can't understand my thoughts sometimes)
Here. Watch this "Pittance of time." Terry  Kelly says it better than me.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvhN5uth8_g


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## the 48th regulator

career_radio-checker said:
			
		

> I have to agree with QM. In the US, words of "Memorial long weekend" and "Memorial Day Sale" have already polluted the real meaning of rememberance. Two minutes at the cenotaph, I think, would be more appropriate and sincere than a whole day off. It reminds me of the Biblical tale of the little homeless girl who put her only two penies into the donation basket and the rich man, who followed, put in a whole sack of cash. God teaches that he prefered the little girl's donation because it was all she had and she was sincere about it while the man just made his donation for posterity.  The moral of the story is that sometimes two heart-felt penies is worth more than a bundle of indiscriminate cash.
> Still confused? (So am I. I can't understand my thoughts sometimes)
> Here. Watch this "Pittance of time." Terry  Kelly says it better than me.    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvhN5uth8_g



I Disagree with with both yourself and QM, and I have gone to explaining this to great lengths in my Challenge;

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/42677.0.html

dileas

tess


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## rifleman

No need for another day off. Keep the tykes in school and make them learn about the sacrifices, have them meet vets. When they get older, they won't question the need for remembrance on Nov.11.  Hold services in the mall at 11 a.m. where the people are. At most I'd have a law like election day, all employees are entitled to time off to attend a service.


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## alfie

No way, and let all the gov't and peace nut types and other @#!% get a day off to go shopping. I enjoyed telling my boss I am taking a single vacation day, at first they asked why especially during the week. Once I showed up with my medals on the way to the ceremony they stopped asking. Besides when do you recall getting the day off in the army sure the mess opened after but if you had duty no day off for you soldier.


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## GUNS

Remembrancee Day as a national holiday - I don't think so.

There are far to few people in Canada who actually care about Nov. 11, why should we reward those who don't give Nov. 11 a second thought a paid holiday.

I agree with someone who said that Canada's military history is barely mentioned in schools, more effort should be done in that area.

Leave Remembrance Day for those who will do it justice, my first Nov.11 in uniform was 1964(cadets) and my respect and gratitude for those that made the supreme sacrificee has not diminished.

Soldiers have always looked after their own, lets keep it that way.


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## Shec

I'd compromise with settling for a morning  of statutory commemoration, ( I hate to apply the word "holiday" to this solemn occasion).  No business whatsoever before 1 p.m. with a complete shut-down of all but the most essential public safety services from 10:45 until 11:45.    But then again I will never be supreme ruler with the power to decree this.


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## 1feral1

QM said:
			
		

> If 11 November becomes a national holiday, all that will end.  The children will be out playing at 1100hrs, and of course won't be bothered to pause and take note of what happened, so in one generation, we will have lost the habit of pausing at 11/11/11.  No one will be at work to peer out their windows at the veterans parade around the cenotaph in their city, or to actually leave their offices to attend the parade, as many do now.  No, 11 November will simply become another long weekend - another chance to have a BBQ or to maybe close the cottage or watch a football game.  The impact will be lost - most Canadians will simply take a day off work and not be bothered to remember or acknowledge why they get to go hunting on a Tuesday, or go shopping in the States for a long weekend in November.  The only people who will put any effort into the day, are us, of course.  But by providing people the opportunity to pause during their schoolday or workday to reflect on the occasion, we keep the memories alive.



Hummm, in Saskatchewan even when I was a kid, 11 Nov was a stat holiday, and any ceremonies, say at school were the day before. I remember them well, from elementry to high school. Even in the UK the 11 Nov service is on Remberance Sunday, the Sunday closest to 11 Nov.

In my Militia days, I can remember that old Armouries, on Elphinstone Street packed as hell every 11 Nov. Vets, cadets, locals of all ages, and all the Militia Units, Legion band,etc. A good turnout.

So, I disagree with you about people loosing sight of the meaning of Remerance Day if it becomes a recognised national day off. I had always thought it was anyways. I guess that some provinces don't recognise it.


Wes


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## Black Watch

Frederik G said:
			
		

> So it's cool for the death of 12 (wasn't it?)


Actually, nine women were shot. Still, it almost makes me cry to see a bunch of separatists (I live in Québec) to yell at soldiers and veterans because they fought for Canada


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## gaspasser

QM said:
			
		

> I actually don't think it should be a holiday.  Currently, downtown cores shut down for the parades on 11 November, and in many (most?) schools and offices, a moment of silence is observed at 1100hours. At the very least, this causes young students to recognize that "something" happened on 11 November that is meaningful, and they will remember the solemnity of the moment of silence.
> 
> If 11 November becomes a national holiday, all that will end.  The children will be out playing at 1100hrs, and of course won't be bothered to pause and take note of what happened, so in one generation, we will have lost the habit of pausing at 11/11/11.  No one will be at work to peer out their windows at the veterans parade around the cenotaph in their city, or to actually leave their offices to attend the parade, as many do now.  No, 11 November will simply become another long weekend - another chance to have a BBQ or to maybe close the cottage or watch a football game.  The impact will be lost - most Canadians will simply take a day off work and not be bothered to remember or acknowledge why they get to go hunting on a Tuesday, or go shopping in the States for a long weekend in November.  The only people who will put any effort into the day, are us, of course.  But by providing people the opportunity to pause during their schoolday or workday to reflect on the occasion, we keep the memories alive.


+1.  
   I agree.  Look at the Memorial Day in states, they shop!  My children know about Remembrance Day because there (was) is usually a ceremony in thier schools. When we were in Moncton, the school asked the base to have some members to come and line the walls during the Legion Ceremony in the gym,as a show for the youth.  
   When I was involved in Scouting, I brought the young Beavers to the Legion so they could see a Ceremony.  To them it was "old people who fought and died in a war years ago".  But it was "something.  I think it is very important for our youth to know why we do this every year as the "they who grow old" ranks are getting thinner every year.


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## youravatar

Signed.


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## the 48th regulator

Gaspasser said:
			
		

> +1.
> I agree.  Look at the Memorial Day in states, they shop!  My children know about Remembrance Day because there (was) is usually a ceremony in their schools. When we were in Moncton, the school asked the base to have some members to come and line the walls during the Legion Ceremony in the gym,as a show for the youth.
> When I was involved in Scouting, I brought the young Beavers to the Legion so they could see a Ceremony.  To them it was "old people who fought and died in a war years ago".  But it was "something.  I think it is very important for our youth to know why we do this every year as the "they who grow old" ranks are getting thinner every year.



You are losing me here.




> +1.     I agree.



That it should not be a holiday.



> Look at the Memorial Day in states, they shop!



Really?  They do.  However, the whole nation, 300 Million understand what memorial day stands for, do you reckon all 30 million of our people do?



> My children know about Remembrance Day because there (was) is usually a ceremony in their schools. When we were in Moncton, the school asked the base to have some members to come and line the walls during the Legion Ceremony in the gym,as a show for the youth.



Fair enough,  tell me what they think of remembrance day when they leave school.  I was part of the generation when November 11th was stricken from Ontario as a public Holiday, I saw the crowds dwindle at the parades, only ones at most of them were family members, and people out walking their dogs, that passed by the ceremony.



> When I was involved in Scouting, I brought the young Beavers to the Legion so they could see a Ceremony.  To them it was "old people who fought and died in a war years ago".  But it was "something.  I think it is very important for our youth to know why we do this every year as the "they who grow old" ranks are getting thinner every year.



Good on you.  Now strip the local populace of all liberties of "relaxing" such as shopping.  And remove all programming, except those dedicated to our Soldiers, Past, present and future.  Fallen and repatriated.  Leave them no avenue to take the day leisurely, short of staying in their homes with curtains drawn, and rose coloured glasses on, and cumbaya playing on the old 8 track.

Give people the understanding that the _Nation Remembers_.  Let them understand that for one day, just one day, the Country will "MAKE" people understand the sacrifice.

We are more concerned with the date we hand in our taxes, with adds on every media source telling us to file, however we do not enforce the understanding of the Sacrifice that our fellow Canadians make.

You may have taken the time to remind your children, and yourself what that sacrifice is, but it is high time we as a nation remind EVERYONE.

We have misinterpreted what the word Holiday means.  We take it as a day to lounge, however is means Holy Day, a sacred day.  Therefore we must all understand that this is a Sacred day, dedicated to all Warriors.

dileas

tess


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## armyvern

For all those who believe that making the 11th of Novemeber a stat holiday will lead to no-one showing up for Parade, I simply have to respectfully disagree.

Last year on Nov 11th I had the hounour of being appointed as the Vigil Party Commander. I can tell you that there were literally hundreds of people viewing the Ceremonies from my vantage point. Small town New Brunswick. I stood there and cried. New Brunswick, where this day is already a "Holiday" it is treated first and foremost as a Day of Remembrance.

Usually however, I request permission to parade with my Cub Scout pack, prior to that my Beaver Colony. I still wear my uniform.

I have talked in schools in Ontario during my postings there and I have talked in schools in New Brunswick on Nov 10th when the schools had their Ceremonies. In New Brunswick, despite the fact that the kids will be "off" on the 11th to attend parades, they still have in-school ceremonies on the 10th which are well attend by the students, their parents, serving soldiers making presentations and significantly by Veterans of our past wars.

If you don't think todays generation knows enough, you must also get out into your Communities to make them aware. Do your part and do what you can.

Perhaps, many of Canada's non-military connected population is indeed "forgetting", it has been a long time since they ahve had to experience "War" if indeed they have ever experienced it. In the past couple of years though, I have noticed a marked increase in the numbers of your average Canadian citizens out on Nov 11th at the Parades. The 20-30-40 year old generation, you know them, the ones who've not had to "live" through a "war." The 50+ generation is there, the youth is indeed there. Perhaps the others are now showing up because they are now seeing first hand through our mission in Afghanistan that, indeed, their right to stay home on Nov 11th, did come with a heavy price.

By the way, in Ontario, we wrote up a letter for all our Beavers and Cubs for them to take to school, letting their teachers know that they would be 'on parade' Nov 11th. The schools allowed them to attend, for the full day, and did not report them as "absent" for the day from school on their report cards.

I guess, it's up to us to make people aware of what this day is about. There are ways to do this.


----------



## rmacqueen

I have not been able to attend a Remembrance Day ceremony for about 5 years.  Why?  Because my employer would not allow me the time off and I know I am not alone in this.  Some point to Memorial Day in the US as an example of what might happen in Canada.  This also does not have to be the case as we could also point to Christmas and Canada day as how it could also be run.  There is nothing that says the government would have to allow stores to be open just because it is a holiday and if individual provinces try to pull that, well, there are elections to set them straight.


----------



## McG

Shec said:
			
		

> I'd compromise with settling for a morning  of statutory commemoration, ( I hate to apply the word "holiday" to this solemn occasion).  No business whatsoever before 1 p.m. with a complete shut-down of all but the most essential public safety services from 10:45 until 11:45.


I like something along these lines.  No stores open between 10:00 and 13:00 (lets the 24 hr establishments & breakfast restaurants know when to close their doors).  All other businesses must either give their employees the time off, or conduct their own ceremony (this would also apply to schools).



			
				rmacqueen said:
			
		

> There is nothing that says the government would have to allow stores to be open just because it is a holiday


The West Edmonton Mall has Remembrance day hours.  Stores don't open until after lunch.  This should be required.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

MCG,
Those are very nice sen....whoa, did a pig just fly by?

Folks, I am sorry but we are collectively asking too much of the PRESENT Canadian populace. 
 When many [most] parents are more concerned with little Jane/Johnny having the latest shoes/video/ better designer clothes than having appreciation for just how FRIGGIN' GOOD WE HAVE IT and what the cost of that was, well......

Keep them a 'captive' audience either in a school gymnasium or as a school trip to the local cenotaph works for me.


----------



## McG

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Keep them a 'captive' audience either in a school gymnasium or as a school trip to the local cenotaph works for me.


Bruce,
With what I've suggested still has the kids going to a gym ceremony.  However, the cubicle dwellers in downtown offices would also attend an office ceremony (or the office has to close for the morning).  University students would be free to attend ceremonies.  McDonald's and WalMart would be closed.

The rule is shut down for those three hours or conduct your own ceremony.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Don't get me wrong, love the idea, but I also like the idea of me retiring to a tropical island full of subversive supermodels, however.......


----------



## Sig_Des

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Don't get me wrong, love the idea, but I also like the idea of me retiring to a tropical island full of subversive supermodels, however.......



Hey it could happen. Or we could always try to find that bowling Mom/daughter combo  

I do like the idea of Rememberance day hours or require ceremonies, but you have to agree it's not something that is likely to happen.

Goes back to the same argument. "Oh, sweet, I don't need to be in the office till 1300, so I'll sleep in"


----------



## rmacqueen

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> I do like the idea of Rememberance day hours or require ceremonies, but you have to agree it's not something that is likely to happen.
> 
> Goes back to the same argument. "Oh, sweet, I don't need to be in the office till 1300, so I'll sleep in"


Sure there will be those that well do that but do we abandon the idea because of people who will view it as just another holiday or push it forward for the ones who would honour our fallen and the recognition of their importance by declaring a holiday.  If you follow this line of thinking then we should also get rid of Canada Day, Thankgiving, Easter, Labour Day and, at the rate it is going, Christmas.


----------



## youravatar

rmacqueen said:
			
		

> at the rate it is going, Christmas.



In my opinion Christmas is already gone. Happy Festivus.


----------



## rhyme416

SIGNED


----------



## Sig_Des

rmacqueen said:
			
		

> If you follow this line of thinking then we should also get rid of Canada Day, Thankgiving, Easter, Labour Day and, at the rate it is going, Christmas.



Fair enough. Of course, Rememberance day is more important to me than those. Except maybe Canada day.

For me, Nov 11 was ingrained into me. As a 5th Gen CF member, it's something not to be missed. Sadly, a lot of people don't see it the same way. Education is an important step toward changing that.


----------



## rmacqueen

Passed the 500 mark


----------



## alfie

Ties in with another post, how many of these so called peace activists even know what Remembrance Day is ?
Obviously not much as they start there parades on the grounds of the one of our monuments


----------



## rmacqueen

The petition is starting to get media coverage.  There is also a private members bill in front of parliament to have Remembrance Day declared a holiday.  If you haven't signed yet, go to http://www.petitiononline.com/nov11th/petition.html  and tell your friends.


----------



## cobbler

QM said:
			
		

> I actually don't think it should be a holiday.  Currently, downtown cores shut down for the parades on 11 November, and in many (most?) schools and offices, a moment of silence is observed at 1100hours. At the very least, this causes young students to recognize that "something" happened on 11 November that is meaningful, and they will remember the solemnity of the moment of silence.
> 
> If 11 November becomes a national holiday, all that will end.  The children will be out playing at 1100hrs, and of course won't be bothered to pause and take note of what happened, so in one generation, we will have lost the habit of pausing at 11/11/11.  No one will be at work to peer out their windows at the veterans parade around the cenotaph in their city, or to actually leave their offices to attend the parade, as many do now.  No, 11 November will simply become another long weekend - another chance to have a BBQ or to maybe close the cottage or watch a football game.  The impact will be lost - most Canadians will simply take a day off work and not be bothered to remember or acknowledge why they get to go hunting on a Tuesday, or go shopping in the States for a long weekend in November.  The only people who will put any effort into the day, are us, of course.  But by providing people the opportunity to pause during their schoolday or workday to reflect on the occasion, we keep the memories alive.



In Australia, Rememberance day is not a national holiday, but 11AM is observed at schools, work, with buglers on every street corner in the city central Business District.


But ANZAC day (25 April) is a national holiday, but it isn't treated as a "day off", it is a day of rememberance and mourning of those who died, and thanksgiving to those who served.

Dawn ceremonies attract crowds in the tens of thousands. Hundreds of thousands line city streets for veterans marches (televised live). Even the smallest of towns have ceremonies and dawn services that attract large attendences.

The young children get taught in school a few weeks out from the day about Australia's war history (in particular about Gallipoli), and then observe it with thier families.

Having the day off has not taken away from the focus of the significance of the war, quite the opposite. It serves as a means to keep every generation informed, aware, and thankful of those who have served and sacrificed for Australia.

Australia would honestly not be the same country without this day.


Yes a football match does take place (the traditional Anzac day clash between bitter rivals Collingwood and my beloved Essendon), but not in lieu of reflection, but as a form of it. Navy seahawks deliver the match balls, the RAAF conducts a flyover, a parade of ex-footballers who served takes place, the ADF provides a tri-service honour guard, then 95,000 people become absolutely silent for 1 minute, then the last post is played, and finally the national anthem is sung by some ADF muso's. Having that many people stay silent before 2 of the most bitter rivals in aussie sport do battle is a powerful moment, and nobody in the stadium takes it lightly.


----------



## Black Watch

signed


----------



## Gunplumber

Signed


----------



## Nfld Sapper

//Signed//


----------



## Highland Laddie

Signed.


----------



## sdimock

Signed, 663 so far.


----------



## Pte_Martin

signed!


----------



## rz350

Signed.

I make a point to take time to remeber on Nov.11

I also try to take a moment to remeber our allies deaths as well. Our Commonwealth allies, Americans, French Resistance fighters, Soviets (maybe they became our enemy after..but at the time, they died and bled the same as we did, against the same enemy) and everyone else who fought against our enemies.


----------



## ladybugmabj

681 now....I signed for myself, my hubby (currently deployed in Afghanistan), and our two boys who are very proud of their dad. Me too!


----------



## Boogilywoo

Signed


----------



## 241

685 Now....Maybe in time for Nov 11 2007


----------



## Jacqueline

Signed...and sent to everyone I know.


----------



## muffin

//SIGNED// (703 )

When I lived in Chatham NB as a kid, Rememberance Day was a holiday - we still had services in school... and we were encouraged to attend the officail services at the cenotaph.

I was always at both.

I think that the people who already attend will continue to do so... and that the people who've wanted to attend but couldn't for reasons pertaining to thier employment would finally have a chance to get out there.

It is already a Federal Stat holiday - everyone working for the federal governement gets Nov 11th off - or this year - Nov 13th in lieu. 

These days people work Christmas Eve, Boxing Day, Christmas and New years Days in some cases... Thanksgiving.... I don't think a day will matter. Most of Ontario will likely still go to work anyways. They would just have to pay time and a half.


Now while I think this is a great idea... I must have been out of the loop for too long - when I was in military members were forbidden from signing petitions..... has this changed?

muffin


----------



## AndrewS

This is a tough one....

My memories of Rememberance Day were going to the Auditorium, where students would put on plays reenacting the different wars, mothers recieving news of their son's passing, women who lost their husband. Readings of poems and war accounts.  Veterns who would tell us their stories.  Thats where as a child I gained my huge appreciation of the who lost their lives for our country.  I can still remember some of those plays vividly 16-20 years later. 

modifed:  Also I can agree with the not being able to attend either.  I'm a college student I was stuck in class taking a test last year and was not the least bit happy about it because i was really wanted to attend.


----------



## twistidnick

Signed #734


----------



## Jacqueline

AndrewS said:
			
		

> This is a tough one....
> 
> My memories of Rememberance Day were going to the Auditorium, where students would put on plays reenacting the different wars, mothers recieving news of their son's passing, women who lost their husband. Readings of poems and war accounts.  Veterns who would tell us their stories.  Thats where as a child I gained my huge appreciation of the who lost their lives for our country.  I can still remember some of those plays vividly 16-20 years later.
> 
> modifed:  Also I can agree with the not being able to attend either.  I'm a college student I was stuck in class taking a test last year and was not the least bit happy about it because i was really wanted to attend.




I guess the schools can still hold the ceremony. It may not be on November 11th but this year it's a Saturday where there is no school.


----------



## andpro

QM said:
			
		

> No, 11 November will simply become another long weekend - another chance to have a BBQ or to maybe close the cottage or watch a football game.  The impact will be lost - most Canadians will simply take a day off work and not be bothered to remember or acknowledge why they get to go hunting on a Tuesday, or go shopping in the States for a long weekend in November.  .


  

Your argument of rememberance day becoming a long weekend holds no wieght what so ever. The last time i checked Nov. 11 does not fall on a friday or a monday every single year. As long as the ceremonies still go on people will continue to remember, if we continue to teach it in our schools people will remember. November 11 has been a holiday in Nova Scotia for years and people still go to the ceremonies. 

signed


----------



## andpro

Miss Jacqueline said:
			
		

> I guess the schools can still hold the ceremony. It may not be on November 11th but this year it's a Saturday where there is no school.


This is how it's done in Nova Scotia, Schools hold ceremonies on the 10th, so regardless of what kids do with their day off they still end up attending a ceremony. 

edit: mis-read the quoted post. because Nova Scotia has a holiday on Nov.11 public schools hold ceremonies the day before.


----------



## rmacqueen

andpro said:
			
		

> because Nova Scotia has a holiday on Nov.11 public schools hold ceremonies the day before.


Which is how it should be across the entire country.


----------



## TCBF

We don't need another Stat holiday.  If we do this,  1/4 of the workforce will have to do a shift that day anyway, then be given money/time for not having it off.  We are too unproductive a country as it stands now.  Take the two minutes if you are working, attend the Parade if you are not.

Tom


----------



## andpro

"we are too unproductive a country as it stands now." I'm sorry but that is one of the most lamest excuses I have ever heard of. Canada is not going to suffer economic collapes if we take one more day off. Do you have any evidence to back that claim up? I don't know if this is true or not, but I heard somewhere that in Europe people take a lot more vacation than Canadians, and Canadians are overworked.


----------



## rmacqueen

andpro said:
			
		

> "we are too unproductive a country as it stands now." I'm sorry but that is one of the most lamest excuses I have ever heard of. Canada is not going to suffer economic collapes if we take one more day off. Do you have any evidence to back that claim up? I don't know if this is true or not, but I heard somewhere that in Europe people take a lot more vacation than Canadians, and Canadians are overworked.


There has also been a push in the last couple of years to create another holiday since Canada has one of the lowest amounts of any industrialized country in the world.  Studies have also shown that productivity goes up when people have time off and that Canadian productivity suffers more from a failure to use new technologies and a tendency to over work the employees.

That having been said, if the government is going to create another stat holiday then Remembrance Day should be it.  I don't think we should just sit back while another stat is created for some lame excuse while the people who died for this country have the same standing as "national talk like a pirate day".  They deserve more than a day marked on the calendar for the sake of corporate profit.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I'm torn on this just because of my past experiences.
> My Father was the 'head mop' at a local high school and being a proud WW2 veteran he would give the Remembrance Day speech in the gymnasium packed with over 1000 kids whom he always held spellbound. I never had the chance to hear his speeches[ already in] but the reason I know how much effect his words had on them is the fact that many times I have run into people whom were those very students and that's one of the things that sticks out in their minds when my Father comes up in conversation.
> 
> Just think of all those kids every year sleeping in and playing video games instead of hearing how it was 'over there'.
> 
> P.S.......One of my prized possesions is a ratty folded-up copy of one of those speeches.



_Just on my way out the door to place my poppy on Dads grave when I recieved this from one of my good buddies who works at the female prison in Milton._

> Hi Bruce,
> 
> I'm here at work and we just observed the minute of silence, even the 
women were able to respect this and stay silent. Couldn't help but 
think of your Dad and the assemblies at Centennial C.V.I.. See you at the 
skirt/kilt fitting.
> 
> Have a great day,
> Name deleted
_

...and before you ask about the skirt/kilt thingy, his forthcoming wedding is a Scottish affair and the best man must be so attired also, no? 8)_


----------



## rmacqueen

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> > I'm here at work and we just observed the minute of silence, even the
> women were able to respect this and stay silent. Couldn't help but
> think of your Dad and the assemblies at Centennial C.V.I.. See you at the
> skirt/kilt fitting.


It is wonderful to know that he had such an impact on the students.  I spoke to some kids last night at the local library and hope they came away with some slight understanding.



			
				Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> ...and before you ask about the skirt/kilt thingy, his forthcoming wedding is a Scottish affair and the best man must be so attired also, no? 8)[/i]


Just remember to go regimental or you have to buy a round for everyone if you are caught ;D


----------



## rmacqueen

Petition has now passed 1,000 signatures


----------



## 57Chevy

Remembrance Day deserves to be a statutory holiday in recognition of the great sacrifices made on behalf of all Canadians, Tory MPP Lisa MacLeod says.
The Ontario Conservative MPP is introducing a private member’s bill Thursday that would, if passed, recognize Nov. 11 as a legal holiday.

Ontario, Manitoba and Quebec are the only provinces that don’t observe Remembrance Day in this way, she said.

“That is odd given the outpouring of support across Ontario, particularly between Trenton and Toronto, when Canadians repatriated after they’ve given the ultimate sacrifice in Afghanistan,” she said.

The bill would also require schools hold Remembrance Day services one day prior to Nov. 11.

Ontarians would lose Family Day in February, a holiday brought in by the Dalton McGuinty government, if the bill passes, she said.

“I’d much rather have my daughter with me at my side on Remembrance Day to teach her about the history, the great cultural and rich military history that we have in this country, so that she understands that our freedoms and our values can never be taken for granted,” MacLeod said.

Her bill has already received support from retired Maj.-Gen. Lewis MacKenzie and Retired Maj.-Gen. Clive Addy, past vice-president of the Royal Canadian Legion, Central Command.

MacLeod notes that 34% of Canada’s war dead in Afghanistan called Ontario home.

Private member’s bills require the support of Liberal government members to become law.

MacLeod said a social media campaign to designate Remembrance Day as a statutory holiday has the support of 275,000 people.
article link

                        (Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act)

275,000 + 1 more :nod:
  :yellow:


----------



## HavokFour

I can support this. I'd love to be able to go to the various ceremonies downtown for once.


----------



## George Wallace

Watching our politicians at work, I wouldn't be surprised if this was shot down by the Liberals and NDP just for the fact that it was a PC member who suggested it..........An act of spite on their part.


----------



## The Bread Guy

I'd love to see it happen - good luck MPP MacLeod!

That said, to put it into context, very, very few Private Member's Bills get passed into law (more on the process in the attached), so I would bet a loonie against it passing for now, esp. considering the spin-off effect on schools and businesses.  And _if_ it goes to committee hearings after we're out of AFG, I suspect (given the broad-but-shallow public sentiment for supporting the troops), the glow of "support the troops" will be overshadowed by business and other concerns (not to mention maybe even a few whack-jobs arguing that this is "glorifying war", so it shouldn't happen).


----------



## mariomike

Remembrance Day was been statutory holiday for City of Toronto employees for at least forty years, and probably a lot longer:
http://www.toronto.ca/children/pdf/cityholidays_2010.pdf

For those of us on Operations, like Christmas and all the other "stats", we work them like any other day of the year. For those not on Operations, Nov. 11 was always a day off with pay.


----------



## Danjanou

mariomike said:
			
		

> Remembrance Day was been statutory holiday for City of Toronto employees for at least forty years, and probably a lot longer:
> http://www.toronto.ca/children/pdf/cityholidays_2010.pdf
> 
> For those of us on Operations, like Christmas and all the other "stats", we work them like any other day of the year. For those not on Operations, Nov. 11 was always a day off with pay.



And I would say about 80-90% of said employees have no clue why they get the day off, don't know (or care) and just see it as a day to go shopping or laze around.


----------



## exgunnertdo

57Chevy said:
			
		

> "Ontario, Manitoba and Quebec are the only provinces that don’t observe Remembrance Day in this way, she said."



To say that Manitoba doesn't acknowledge it as a stat is not the 100% truth. It's not a Stat, but it is observed as a day off. Schools and businesses are closed. More so than on a Stat actually. There is legislation called "The Remembrance Day Act" (or similar, I forget exactly what it's called). Other provinces should look at Manitoba's model. 

The danger of calling it a stat is exactly what someone said - people have no idea why it's a day off. Or they head south to do some Christmas shopping.


----------



## mariomike

Danjanou said:
			
		

> And I would say about 80-90% of said employees have no clue why they get the day off, don't know (or care) and just see it as a day to go shopping or laze around.



I hesitated to avoid saying that, but it is exactly what I was thinking. 

"If the employee works on a designated holiday, the employee will be paid two (2) times his regular rate for
time so worked, and be paid for a full day at his regular rate of pay."


----------



## The Bread Guy

exgunnertdo said:
			
		

> To say that Manitoba doesn't acknowledge it as a stat is not the 100% truth. It's not a Stat, but it is observed as a day off. Schools and businesses are closed. More so than on a Stat actually. There is legislation called "The Remembrance Day Act" (or similar, I forget exactly what it's called). Other provinces should look at Manitoba's model.


Thanks for that info.



			
				Danjanou said:
			
		

> And I would say about 80-90% of said employees have no clue why they get the day off, don't know (or care) and just see it as a day to go shopping or laze around.





			
				exgunnertdo said:
			
		

> The danger of calling it a stat is exactly what someone said - people have no idea why it's a day off. Or they head south to do some Christmas shopping.



Good point - day off =/= more remembering or more cenotaph attendance


----------



## Pusser

This is not the first time this has come up in Ontario.  I seem to recall that about 30 years ago the Legion actually came out against making it a holiday.  The reasoning was that it was better to have the kids taking part in Remembrance Day activities in school than it was to give them a day off to goof around.  

Another thing to think about is why CF members get the day off?  Would it not make more sense for everyone to be on parade that day (we of all people)?  For those that go on parade, how many are happy to do it compared to those who feel they got shafted with another duty?  I know many of us go to services anyway, but I'm pretty confident that there are other CF members who simply treat it as another day off.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Pusser said:
			
		

> Another thing to think about is why CF members get the day off?  Would it not make more sense for everyone to be on parade that day (we of all people)?  For those that go on parade, how many are happy to do it compared to those who feel they got shafted with another duty?  I know many of us go to services anyway, but I'm pretty confident that there are other CF members who simply treat it as another day off.



I would really hope this is not the case.  In my 23 year period of military employment, Remembrance Day is the one parade I _never_ heard anyone complain about.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> I would really hope this is not the case.  In my 23 year period of military employment, Remembrance Day is the one parade I _never_ heard anyone complain about.



Might have something to do with all the wobbley pops after......


----------



## Kung Fu Sifu

This is just my opinion, If 11 Nov was called  a Statutory Holiday across the country, how long would it take for some yahoo in parliment to say Hey lets make Rememberance day the first Monday in November ? Just a thought.


----------



## mariomike

Kung Fu Sifu said:
			
		

> This is just my opinion, If 11 Nov was called  a Statutory Holiday across the country, how long would it take for some yahoo in parliment to say Hey lets make Rememberance day the first Monday in November ? Just a thought.



I think it used to be something like that for about ten years:
"From 1921 to 1930, the Armistice Day Act provided that Thanksgiving would be observed on Armistice Day, which was fixed by statute on the Monday of the week in which November 11 fell.":
http://www.pch.gc.ca/pgm/ceem-cced/jfa-ha/action-eng.cfm


----------



## Edward Campbell

I'm not exactly sure where I stand on this.

I am one of those who _hopes_ that Canadians will remember our war dead – and let me be very, very clear: that, remembering our dead in wars, is the one and only, sole and complete purpose of Remembrance Day. It is *not* about war, _per se_, or about veterans or children or priests and rabbis and assorted other shamans. The complete ceremony takes two minutes and a few seconds: the recitation of the _Act of Remembrance_ and a couple of trumpet calls and a lament a brief period of silence – everything else is window dressing, stuff about the living, not the dead.

Suppose we make Remembrance Day a statutory holiday – for everyone, not just federal civil servants, will that improve the attendance at Remembrance Day ceremonies? Or will it just be another shopping day – the start of the _holiday_ season (you know the thing we used to call Christmas)?

I'm prepared to guarantee that a bill to make Remembrance day a statutory holiday will include a provisions to allow stores to open at 12:00 Noon. The retail industry is too important to be hit with a major store closing day in the autumn

I'm willing to bet that most stores and malls will call their staff in at 0800 Hrs on 11 November, while a few people are at the local cenotaph, to take down the wreaths and poppies and put up the _holiday_ decorations.

What about children? Surely they will attend at the cenotaph since they do not have to be in school? Really? Will parents bring their children to stand for an hour on a cold, often wet November morning? Will the teenagers come out on their own?

Maybe I'm just old and cynical but I'm not sure that making Remembrance Day a statutory holiday is the answer to anything. My guess is that we will remember so long as the issue is in front of us – and that, largely, is a function of the media.


----------



## mariomike

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Suppose we make Remembrance Day a statutory holiday – for everyone, not just federal civil servants, will that improve the attendance at Remembrance Day ceremonies?



Cynical to say, but the supervisors used to remark that it was amazing how many sick and injured workers used to book fit for Operations on 10 Nov., then report for duty on the 11th (  for triple-time ). 
If you ever have to call 9-1-1 in Toronto, 11 Nov. is a good day for it, because it has one of the highest car counts of any day of the year.

When you consider the fact that The City of Toronto has given its employees the day off with pay for more decades than I can remember, the irony is that if they came to work that day, they could observe Remembrance Day at their job sites. 
Because the services are held at the City Hall, Scarborough, North York, Etobicoke, York and East York municipal centres: 
Remembrance Day - City of Toronto ceremonies:
http://www.toronto.ca/lestweforget/remembrance.htm
http://www.toronto.ca/lestweforget/remembrance-city.htm

Workers at TPS and Emergency Services could watch the Remembrance Day Service at Old City Hall live on Citytv. They have huge atriums that are frequently used for similar occassions. 
This would cost the taxpayers nothing, and ensure a much higher attendance of city employees at Remembrance Day services rather than sending them home.


----------



## Pusser

Kung Fu Sifu said:
			
		

> This is just my opinion, If 11 Nov was called  a Statutory Holiday across the country, how long would it take for some yahoo in parliment to say Hey lets make Rememberance day the first Monday in November ? Just a thought.



In the UK, they have "Remembrance Sunday," which is held on the Sunday closest to November 11th.  The military turns out on parade, but there is no holiday and e everybody reports for work the next day.  I'm not sure we want to go there.


----------



## Rogo

Many people seem to believe May 2-4 is of one significance. To finish a 2-4 of beer.   It's very unfortunate that they don't understand the historical significance of the holiday; I fear this would be the same outcome for Nov 11 should it become an official stat Holiday. 

I know there are people who will not be permitted to attend because either school or work says they cannot, I always make the effort and I think I have missed only one (if any) Remembrance Day Ceremonies since I was 12. And attended every one from age 5-11 at the Cenotaph at Lt Col John McCrae's birthplace on Water Street in Guelph. 

I feel that I have put in more effort than most my age to recognize the past, and I feel that it is the very least I can do. Should the day become a stat, you of course will have the turn out of all those who feel it important to be there, but you will also have shopping, gaming, kids being little tards and all sorts of innapropriate actions by those who sadly "just don't care".


----------



## Rifleman62

The following may end up in it's own thread. 

The change will probably be controversial, but it may reinvigorate everyone if we honour all Veterans and get away from what some think as glorifying war.  How could the loony left and their minions not honour "peacekeepers" who lost their lives or veterans of these missions?

I think that it is time to follow the USA and "update" *Remembrance Day to Veterans Day* (do not have a similar Memorial Day though).


The UK has: it is Remembrance Sunday.

http://www.history.com/topics/history-of-veterans-day

Excerpt

In November 1918, U.S. President Woodrow Wilson proclaimed November 11 as the first commemoration of *Armistice Day*. The day's observation included parades and public gatherings, as well as a brief pause in business activities at 11 a.m. On November 11.

In 1954, after lobbying efforts by veterans’ service organizations, the 83rd U.S. Congress amended the 1938 act that had made Armistice Day a holiday, striking the word "Armistice" in favor of "Veterans." President Dwight D. Eisenhower signed the legislation on June 1, 1954. From then on, *November 11 became a day to honor American veterans of all wars.
*

The next development in the story of Veterans Day unfolded in 1968, when Congress passed the Uniform Holidays Bill, which sought to ensure three-day weekends for federal employees--and encourage tourism and travel--by celebrating four national holidays (Washington's Birthday, Memorial Day, Veterans Day and Columbus Day) on Mondays.

The observation of Veterans Day was set as the fourth Monday in October. The first Veterans Day under the new law was Monday, October 25, 1971; confusion ensued, as many states disapproved of this change, and continued to observe the holiday on its original date. In 1975, after it became evident that the actual date of Veterans Day carried historical and patriotic significance to many Americans, President Gerald R. Ford signed a new law returning the observation of Veterans Day to November 11th beginning in 1978. If November 11 falls on a Saturday or Sunday, the federal government observes the holiday on the previous Friday or following Monday, respectively.

Celebrating Veterans Day Around the World

Britain, France, Australia and Canada also commemorate the veterans of World Wars I and II on or near November 11th: Canada has Remembrance Day, while Britain has Remembrance Sunday (the second Sunday of November). In Europe, Britain and the Commonwealth countries it is common to observe two minutes of silence at 11 a.m. every November 11.

*Veterans Day *is not to be confused with *Memorial Day*--a common misunderstanding.

Memorial Day (the fourth Monday in May) honors American service members who died in service to their country or as a result of injuries incurred during battle, while *Veterans Day pays tribute to all American veterans--living or dead--but especially gives thanks to living veterans who served their country honorably during war or peacetime.
*
http://www.va.gov/opa/vetsday/docs/2011_veterans_day_teacher_guide.pdf

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN VETERANS DAY AND MEMORIAL DAY?

Many people confuse Memorial Day and Veterans Day. Both holidays were established to recognize and honor the men and women who have worn the uniform of the United States Armed Forces. But Memorial Day, which is observed on the last Monday in May, was originally
set aside as a day for remembering and honoring military personnel who died in the service of their country, particularly those who died in battle or as a result of wounds sustained in battle.

While those who died are also remembered on Veterans Day, which is observed on November 11, Veterans Day is intended to thank and honor all those who served honorably in the military - in wartime or peacetime. In fact, *Veterans Day is largely intended to thank living
Veterans for their service, to acknowledge that their contributions to our national security are appreciated, and to underscore the fact that all those who served - not only those who died - have sacrificed and done their duty.*


----------



## The Bread Guy

Since it's a meaty enough topic for discussion that's not exactly in line with the fate of the RC Legions, good idea - prepare to split ....... and split!

*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## mariomike

Something like Warrior's Day?
http://www.thewarriorsdayparade.ca/


----------



## PMedMoe

I thought Remembrance Day (in Canada) was to remember the dead, not the survivors.


----------



## cupper

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I thought Remembrance Day (in Canada) was to remember the dead, not the survivors.



It is, but I think there is a failure in the education of the young into the significance of Remembrance  Day.Yes we hear about the sacrifice of those that fought and died, and we learn about why it is important to never let the memory of that sacrifice die. But at the same time we are taught that all members of the military past, present and future are part of that same sacrifice (rightly or wrongly) and this may be where the blurring of the significance begins.

But I definitely agree that we do not need to have a "Memorial Day". It's almost as if meaning of the two days have been switched in the way they are honored. The celebratory atmosphere of Memorial Day runs in opposition to the real meaning of the day, to honor the lives of those who died fighting for their country. Contrast that with the reserved quiet nature of Veterans Day which is to honor the people who served their country (a holiday in name only).


----------



## Edward Campbell

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I thought Remembrance Day (in Canada) was to remember the dead, not the survivors.




You are correct. Remembrance Day is not about veterans; they started it and (through the Royal Canadian Legion) some veterans still _manage_ it, but the only really important people at the ceremony are the Governor General (who represents all Canadians, including the ones who remember nothing and care less) and the Silver Cross Mother (who represents all those who grieve for individual losses). The veterans, sitting in chairs, carrying flags or marching about (marching be used loosely) are _window dressing_. I believe we should have a Veteran's Day - making a nice long weekend in, say, February. (I would say in May but that's too close to Victoria Day which is so anachronistic that we really must keep it.)


----------



## The Bread Guy

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I thought Remembrance Day (in Canada) was to remember the dead, not the survivors.


According to at least one government page on the subject (hosted at Veterans Affairs Canada), it still is:


> Remembrance Day commemorates Canadians who died in service to Canada from the South African War to current missions. It is held every November 11.


That said....


			
				cupper said:
			
		

> It is, but I think there is a failure in the education of the young into the significance of Remembrance  Day.Yes we hear about the sacrifice of those that fought and died, and we learn about why it is important to never let the memory of that sacrifice die. But at the same time we are taught that all members of the military past, present and future are part of that same sacrifice (rightly or wrongly) and this may be where the blurring of the significance begins.


.... recent messaging from politicians muddies the water a bit as well - from the PM (highlights mine):


> “Tomorrow, *we honour generations of brave Canadian men and women in uniform who have fought to defend our country and to promote and protect the values of freedom, democracy, human rights and the rule of law.* Canadians have always stood ready to defend their country and in the last century nearly two million have served in two World Wars, Korea, Afghanistan, Libya and various other conflict zones. Sadly, *we also remember those who, in doing so, have paid the ultimate price with their lives*.
> 
> “The values our veterans held dear decades ago are still very much alive today in those who continue to serve our great country, be it at home or abroad, through peace support or combat missions.
> 
> “The unparalleled spirit, skills and devotion of the members of the Canadian Armed Forces are an example for us all, and our thoughts remain with members currently serving in Afghanistan.
> 
> “There are no words to express our profound gratitude to our service men and women who – together with their families and friends – put the interests and security of our country ahead of their own.
> 
> “Lest we forget.”



.... through the Minister of National Defence:


> “Every November 11th, Canadians come together to mark the service and countless sacrifices of Canadian Forces members, past and present, here at home and around the world.
> 
> We recall when the absence of freedom and security rallied the very bravest of Canada's sons and daughters to defend our most sacred values and ideals.
> 
> *We remember the void left in the hearts of so many who anxiously waited for their loved ones to return to Canada, and reflect on the loss of members of our forces who never returned home.*
> 
> *We recognize all those who served, and those who continue to serve, absent any thought of their personal security.*
> 
> This year, members of the Canadian Forces ended their combat role in southern Afghanistan and moved to a non-combat training mission centred in Kabul. Risks are inherent to any mission in Afghanistan and our men and women in uniform continue to sacrifice and make a real difference in the lives of Afghans.
> 
> Earlier this year, over 650 military personnel began a mission to protect Libyans against violence and threats of violence by the Gadhafi regime. Our planes and frigates have been front and centre in this conflict and I'm proud of what the Canadian Forces have accomplished.
> 
> Both of these operations, and numerous other activities at home and around the world, continue the strong traditions of the Royal Canadian Navy, the Royal Canadian Air Force and the Canadian Army.
> 
> On Remembrance Day, when Canadians from all corners of this great country join together in silence, may we fill those empty moments with our thoughts of gratitude and compassion for the men and women, and their families, who have given so very much for the causes of freedom, democracy, human rights and the rule of law.
> 
> *Canadians are eternally grateful for the sacrifices of those who serve to protect us.*
> 
> Lest we forget.”


----------



## NavalMoose

The UK has not "updated" Remembrance day to Remembrance Sunday. Remembrance Sunday has been around for decades as the closest Sunday to "Armistice Day".  It is a recent development that there is a 2 minute pause on Nov 11 as well as the full ceremony on the Sunday.  The closest thing to "Veterans' Day" in the UK is "Armed Forces Day" in June and that is only a couple of years old. Just because the Yanks do it, doesn't mean we have to.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Personally, before we start mounting a campaign to change the holiday's name, I would rather we mount a campaign to make it a true national holiday rather than just a "federal" holiday observed in industries subject to federal jurisdiction only. It should be on par with Canada day, including restrictions on commercial activities on that day. Since that would make only two compulsory national holidays, we can't exactly be accused of exaggerating.

Hopefully then, with the assistance of no business being transacted, shopping severely curtailed and media attention to the ceremonial aspects (plus some history channel type of full week "days of remembrance" special programming), people would ponder why they have a day off of that nature and slowly get better educated about it - hopefully leading to better attendance at the day's activities in the future.

Just my 2c


----------



## Edward Campbell

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Personally, before we start mounting a campaign to change the holiday's name, I would rather we mount a campaign to make it a true national holiday rather than just a "federal" holiday observed in industries subject to federal jurisdiction only. It should be on par with Canada day, including restrictions on commercial activities on that day. Since that would make only two compulsory national holidays, we can't exactly be accused of exaggerating.
> 
> Hopefully then, with the assistance of no business being transacted, shopping severely curtailed and media attention to the ceremonial aspects (plus some history channel type of full week "days of remembrance" special programming), people would ponder why they have a day off of that nature and slowly get better educated about it - hopefully leading to better attendance at the day's activities in the future.
> 
> Just my 2c




Why?

Civil servants and postal workers (workers?) have a shopping day rest day statutory holiday - damned few of them show up for Remembrance Day services. Does the retail industry really need a Christmas "kick off" that badly?


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

As an American president once said: Read my lips.

I said: "no business transacted" and  "shopping severely curtailed": That means, like on a true National holiday, that stores cannot open, with few exceptions such as gas stations and accommodation stores and special exemptions are required - in advance - for businesses that cannot be closed for valid reasons.  You don't have that right now, which is why those postal workers prefer to go shopping in all the stores that the provincial governments permit to be fully open.


----------



## Teflon

Personally I think Remembrance Day is Remembrance Day, has been for a long time and should remain as it is, a day to Remember those that have died in defence and service of Canada.  Any "messaging" expressing a different purpose should be what changes and the messengers reminded of the days true purpose. I admit that while attending Remembrance Day ceremonies I receive far more Thanks for my service than any other day and it is nice but I always try to politely remind them that the real guests of honour couldn't make it except in spirit. Most of the older veterans I know and have talked with after the ceremonies over a drink express similar opinions but in the end it is only that, an opinion.


----------



## Blackadder1916

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> . . . . .  :That said........ recent messaging from politicians muddies the water a bit as well - from the PM:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . . . . . Sadly, we also remember those who, in doing so, have paid the ultimate price with their lives.   . . . . .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . . . . . .
Click to expand...


The dead don't vote, nor can they campaign or advocate against sitting politicians.  Thanks for providing those quotes of politico-babble.  I shall be contacting the PM's office to register my disgust at his inclusion of "remembering the fallen" as an afterthought.



			
				Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> . . . . . It should be on par with Canada day, including restrictions on commercial activities on that day. . . . . .
> 
> . . . . .  hopefully leading to better attendance at the day's activities in the future.



How to get better attendance like Canada Day?  Throw a party with free entertainment and fireworks!

While not in the same category of "old fart" like ERC, (and originally being from that unique society - Newfoundland) memories of these two days have probably coloured my view.  At one time, Remembrance Armistice Day on the rock was commemorated (like in the UK) on the closest Sunday, I'm not sure when it changed but I do have a faint memory as a very young schoolboy of pausing during class on that day for the two minutes of silence.  Memorial Day (with its ceremonies) was always July 1- Canada Day was not a big thing (or really anything) back then.


----------



## mariomike

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Personally, before we start mounting a campaign to change the holiday's name, I would rather we mount a campaign to make it a true national holiday rather than just a "federal" holiday observed in industries subject to federal jurisdiction only.



Remembrance Day has always been a statutory holiday in the _municipal_ jurisdiction where I used to work.

i "if the employee does not work on the actual holiday, the employee shall be paid for a full day at his regular rate of pay. 
( always 12 hour shifts where I worked ) 

ii "if the employee works on a designated holiday, the employee will be paid two (2) times his regular rate for time so worked _and in addition _shall either:
(A)
be paid for a full day at his regular rate of pay, or
(B)
be entitled, at the employee’s option, to a day in lieu with pay at a time to be mutually agreed upon between the employee and the supervisor."


----------



## Pusser

"Remembrance Day" is a nice name because it covers many facets.  People can "remember" anything they like (although it becomes admittedly more difficult with age ;D).  So why change the name at all?  Why not just expand the definition of who we remember?  That way no stationary will be wasted and no calendars or websites will require amendment.


----------



## Privateer

We should create three separate Days, each coexisting on November 11:  Royal Canadian Navy Remembrance Day, Canadian Army Remembrance Day, and Royal Canadian Air Force Remembrance Day....

OK, kidding.


----------



## cupper

What I don't agree with are those that feel since it is a stat holiday (in some jurisdictions) that if it falls on a weekend, they should be given the following Monday off in compensation.

When I heard a coworker at a former job complain because they were expected to show up on Monday when Remembrance Day fell on a Sunday, I asked them if the were planning to show their respect for those who died defending their right to complain on both Sunday and Monday.

Last I heard about not getting Monday off.


----------



## OldSolduer

cupper said:
			
		

> When I heard a coworker at a former job complain because they were expected to show up on Monday when Remembrance Day fell on a Sunday, I asked them if the were planning to show their respect for those who died defending their right to complain on both Sunday and Monday.
> 
> Last I heard about not getting Monday off.



Good comeback. Well said.


----------



## aesop081

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> hopefully leading to better attendance at the day's activities in the future.



Well, here the ceremony was very well attended. I am glad coffee shops were open because i had one to warm up before the ceremony (it was cold) and i am also glad the pubs were open so i could head there afterwards.

Oh, wait. We're cherry picking what shouldn't be open............ my mistake.


----------



## Edward Campbell

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> You are correct. Remembrance Day is not about veterans; they started it and (through the Royal Canadian Legion) some veterans still _manage_ it, but the only really important people at the ceremony are the Governor General (who represents all Canadians, including the ones who remember nothing and care less) and the Silver Cross Mother (who represents all those who grieve for individual losses). The veterans, sitting in chairs, carrying flags or marching about (marching be used loosely) are _window dressing_. I believe we should have a Veteran's Day - making a nice long weekend in, say, February. (I would say in May but that's too close to Victoria Day which is so anachronistic that we really must keep it.)




It's time for an annual rant, this time provoked by this article which tells us that some vets objected to Premier Marois wearing a _fleur de lis_ in her poppy.

First: I'm going to jump to Mme. Marois' defence.

I know that the Royal Canadian Legion has considerable legal, proprietary and _traditional_ interest in the poppy, and that their annual poppy campaign is the RCL's major fundraising campaign for its many worthy endeavours. I also know that many veterans hold the poppy in special regard ~ I observe here, in our Army.ca _family_, many members change their avatar to a poppy at about this time every year. I am a veteran; I am not a Legion member, nor to I visit a Legion branch on 11 Nov, nor do I march in the 11 Nov "veterans parade" even though I always, health permitting, attend the services; but I do have a personal interest in honouring our war dead.

Many people, soldiers and civilians alike use a little commemorative pin to hold their poppy in place. Mine is shown below. (Who can tell me what the pin is for?) I have heard and read complaints against this; I find them all unpersuasive. Despite the Legion's proprietary interest, the poppy, as a symbol of remembrance of our war dead, *not of the service or sacrifice of living veterans*, belongs to all of us. The fact that we wear it, period, is enough to satisfy the Legion's interests.

I don't know what went through Mme. Marois' mind when she used her little _fleur de lis_ to pin her poppy to her jacket. Perhaps she smiled slyly and said, to herself, "that will show those _maudits anglais_" but it is equally likely that she thought about a faded family photograph of a relative who went off to war, maybe never to return, with a _fleur de lis_ on his lapel or, perhaps, the image of a grieving Quebecois mother who had just lost a son in Afghanistan crossed her mind. I don't know, and I am 100% certain that none of the complaining vets do either, so I, at least, and the vets, I believe, owe Mme Marois the benefit of the doubt. I applaud Mme Marois for wearing her poppy; that's what a loose combination of custom, good political public relations, and good taste require of politicians. I don't believe that attacks on her were, in any way, warranted.

Second, and my main point: *Remembrance Day*. Remembrance Day, originally Armistice Day, was started by veterans with one specific aim: to remember their comrades who had been killed in battle. Except for the Americans, whose Civil War was, arguably, the first modern,mass war, we were strangers to the idea of the mass slaughter that characterized the campaigns in France and Flanders. The men and women who survived needed to stop, every so often, and contemplate what had happened and what they contemplated was:

*For The Fallen*

With proud thanksgiving, a mother for her children, 
England mourns for her dead across the sea. 
Flesh of her flesh they were, spirit of her spirit, 
Fallen in the cause of the free.

Solemn the drums thrill; Death august and royal 
Sings sorrow up into immortal spheres, 
There is music in the midst of desolation 
And a glory that shines upon our tears.

_They went with songs to the battle, they were young, 
Straight of limb, true of eye, steady and aglow. 
They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted; 
They fell with their faces to the foe.

*They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old: 
Age shall not weary them, nor the years contemn. 
At the going down of the sun and in the morning 
We will remember them.*_

They mingle not with their laughing comrades again; 
They sit no more at familiar tables of home; 
They have no lot in our labour of the day-time; 
They sleep beyond England's foam.

But where our desires are and our hopes profound, 
Felt as a well-spring that is hidden from sight, 
To the innermost heart of their own land they are known 
As the stars are known to the Night;

As the stars that shall be bright when we are dust, 
Moving in marches upon the heavenly plain; 
As the stars that are starry in the time of our darkness, 
To the end, to the end, they remain.

_Laurence Binyon, 1914_

That's what prompted the whole thing, and, even today, one stanza from that poem, two trumpet calls and one piped lament is, really, almost all there is to any Remembrance Day service; at the national level our Governor General, representing all of us in our grief for all who gave their lives, and the _Silver Cross Mother_, representing those who grieve, personally, for individuals, lay wreaths. All the rest: the inclusive prayers, the children singing John McCrae's iconic poem, the marching vets and everything else is window dressing. We gather for one, and only one reason, to pause for just two minutes and think about the human costs of war - in terms we can all understand, the death of a single man, but multiplied by dozens, hundreds, thousands and even tens of thousands. (In some respects I think Afghanistan, with one or two soldiers killed every few weeks, is easier to comprehend than the great battles of earlier wars when the casualty lists tallied dozens even hundreds of names and hometowns each day.)

So, please, wear your poppy in *remembrance* of our war dead - not our "glorious dead," there wasn't, ever, much glory - and, stop slagging Mme Marois for wearing hers. If you need some glory on Remembrance Day, consider, perhaps the text which is inscribed on the _Memorial Arch_ which connects the East and West Veterans Memorial Building in Ottawa:







*All these were honoured in their generations, and were the glory of their times.*
_Ecclesiasticus 44:7_



Thanks for reading.


Edit: typo


----------



## Old Sweat

Remembrance Day in Canada dates from 1931 when Novemember 11th was chosen as the date to commemorate our war dead to conform to the rest of the British Commonwealth. Up to then the ceremony was in late May or early June and was known as Decoration Day. Its date was significant as it was close to the anniversary of the Battle of Ridgeway on June 2nd, 1866 when nine Canadians were killed or died of wounds fighting the Fenians. The battle was the first time that the Canadian Army, which had been created by the Militia Act of 1855, fought and the first time that Canadians fought under Canadian command with no British presence. Ridgeway was also the last time that Canadians died fighting on Canadian soil against a foreign invader.

It is perhaps an accident of history that these nine Canadians and the 31 that died of illness, injury or accident while called out to face the Fenian threat of 1866 are not included in the Books of Remembrance in the Peace Tower.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> It's time for an annual rant, this time provoked by this article which tells us that some vets objected to Premier Marois wearing a _fleur de lis_ in her poppy.
> 
> First: I'm going to jump to Mme. Marois' defence.



I have to agree with you. For decades Quebec nationalists and separatists have complained that the Boer War, WWI and WWII were _*English* _ wars and had nothing to do with Quebec or Canada. So, the fact that Premier Marois is _even_ wearing a poppy I think is significant and good for her.


----------



## Strike

I suspect Pauline Marois' pin 'blunder' was more an effort to keep from looking like she's got too much bling.  The fleur de lis pin that she had holding on the poppy is one that she wears on most occasions.  In this case it served as double duty - she's still wearing her usual pin and it also keeps her from accidentally losing the poppy.

I have always maintained that the reason the Legion has never changed the design of how the poppy is attached is that it ensures repeat customers/donations when people inadvertently lose their poppies when getting out of the car, taking a bag off their shoulders, etc.


----------



## Jarnhamar

E.R. Campbell, 

I seen this story on TV and wondered when it would appear here.  When I watched the story on TV it really pissed me off- I figured yup typical Quebecker move.  Ie here is a Canadian flag but instead of a maple leaf, the  fleur de lis.   How politically clever, look at you altering the poppy.  I'm not a fan of the poppy thanks to the antics of the legion but it made me mad this woman tried to seemingly make a statement.  

Being a big fan of your writings here I read your post and immediately though 'hell ya if you want to alter the poppy with something personal more power to you!'

I then realized the double standard I was guilty of and it's given me cause to examine my thoughts and reflect on me being prejudice, automatically assuming because she is french she was trying to make a political statement.

Thank you.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Susan Delacourt (_Toronto Star_) tweets that _"Bus driver_[Ottawa, I assume, since she cross referenced it to #loveOttawa] _is asking people "where's your poppy?" and requesting they recite Flanders Field if not sporting one._"

 :rage:
If that's the case then the stupid ass should be fired, summarily. It's not his bloody business, nor that of his (ineffectual) employer, to ask, much less to impose some sort of silly-arsed penalty.

Jeezus, I hate stupid people and f'ing busybodies, and stupid f'ing busybodies make my blood boil. 
 :rage: off


----------



## The Bread Guy

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> It's time for an annual rant .... So, please, wear your poppy in *remembrance* of our war dead - not our "glorious dead," there wasn't, ever, much glory - and, stop slagging Mme Marois for wearing hers. If you need some glory on Remembrance Day, consider, perhaps the text which is inscribed on the _Memorial Arch_ which connects the East and West Veterans Memorial Building in Ottawa:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *All these were honoured in their generations, and were the glory of their times.*
> _Ecclesiasticus 44:7_


It's only a rant if it's senseless - FAR from it.  It's a good reminder, especially in light of mixed messaging from the Info-machine at this time of year re:  vets & remembering the fallen:


> The Honourable Steven Blaney, Minister of Veterans Affairs and Eve Adams, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Veterans Affairs, joined the Honourable Roméo Dallaire, Senator and Chair of the Senate Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs, and Member of Parliament Gregg Kerr, Chair of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs, for a wreath-laying ceremony paying tribute to Canadian Veterans at the National War Memorial and Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.
> 
> “During Veterans’ Week, we pay tribute to all Canadian Veterans and continue to honour those who serve our country today,” said Minister Blaney. “The Government of Canada is dedicated to commemorating the sacrifices and achievements of the brave Canadians whose legacy is the peace and security we continue to enjoy today.”
> 
> This year marks significant historical military milestones with the 95th anniversary of the Battle of Vimy Ridge, the 95th anniversary of the capture of Passchendaele and the 70th anniversary of the Dieppe Raid. Each year, from November 5 to 11, Canadians join together to celebrate Veterans’ Week.
> 
> This Veterans’ Week, take time to remember by attending a Remembrance Day ceremony, visiting a local cenotaph or monument, sharing your thoughts of remembrance online, or wearing a poppy with pride. Learn more and find remembrance events and activities in your area at veterans.gc.ca.


Thanks, ER, for the reminder.  :remembrance:


----------



## mariomike

.   :remembrance:


----------



## The Bread Guy

Tis the season - this from the Senate yesterday:


> Korean War Veterans Day Bill
> First Reading
> Hon. Yonah Martin introduced Bill S-213, An Act respecting a National Day of remembrance to honour Canadian veterans of the Korean War.
> 
> (Bill read first time.)
> 
> The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, when shall this bill be read the second time?
> 
> (On motion of Senator Martin, bill placed on the Orders of the Day for second reading two days hence.)



More on Bill S-213 here - remember, such bills have only a slim chance of passing without government party support shown in both the House of Commons and the Senate.


----------



## Edward Campbell

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> You are correct. Remembrance Day is not about veterans; they started it and (through the Royal Canadian Legion) some veterans still _manage_ it, but the only really important people at the ceremony are the Governor General (who represents all Canadians, including the ones who remember nothing and care less) and the Silver Cross Mother (who represents all those who grieve for individual losses). The veterans, sitting in chairs, carrying flags or marching about (marching be used loosely) are _window dressing_. I believe we should have a Veteran's Day - making a nice long weekend in, say, February. (I would say in May but that's too close to Victoria Day which is so anachronistic that we really must keep it.)




I am losing have lost the war.

Tony Clement, one of Prime Minister Harper's most trusted ministers just said, today, *"We honour Canada's veterans, some of whom paid the supreme sacrifice, in the House of Commons now."* So that's the new _party line_: it is, really, _Veterans' Week_, and it's all about veterans and the two and a half minutes we devote to  :remembrance: _remembrance_  :remembrance: is just an afterthought.

Cancel my idea for a separate "Veterans' Day," we've already drunk the US kool-aid and it's on 11 Nov.


----------



## Kat Stevens

It's a sad, sad day... :not-again:


----------



## Jarnhamar

We have other months dedicated to various groups, lets piggy back movember with *Veterans awareness month.
*
 ;D


----------



## SMG III

Do you agree with Remembrance Day becoming a National Holiday?

I fully support it!

I think it is definitely time for us to honour those who fought for a better world, us, and our freedom in a better way and died along the journey.

As well as those veterans who did the same, and lost their friends along the way.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Remembrance Day has nothing to do with veterans. It's a day to remember those who never got a chance to be veterans.


----------



## SMG III

I will edit, however I meant honouring our veterans, and remembering and honouring those who died.


----------



## mariomike

"Veterans' Week":

"Each year, from November 5 to 11, Canadians join together to celebrate Veterans’ Week - this year is no different.":
http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/veterans-week


----------



## OldSolduer

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> It's a sad, sad day... :not-again:



Agreed.


----------



## cupper

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> It's a sad, sad day... :not-again:



I see what you did there. :nod:


----------



## Sigs Pig

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> We have other months dedicated to various groups, lets piggy back movember with *Veterans awareness month.
> *
> ;D


"November is Veterans Awareness Month

November 11 is Veterans Day, and the Brookhaven Veterans Association (BVA) and the Employee Assistance Program (EAP) have teamed up to offer a month-long series of lectures and events at Brookhaven National Laboratory to celebrate the service the United States military veterans have provided to the country."

Done.

ME


----------



## The Bread Guy

Sigs Pig said:
			
		

> "November is Veterans Awareness Month
> 
> November 11 is Veterans Day, and the Brookhaven Veterans Association (BVA) and the Employee Assistance Program (EAP) have teamed up to offer a month-long series of lectures and events at Brookhaven National Laboratory to celebrate the service the United States military veterans have provided to the country."
> 
> Done.
> 
> ME


Also remember, though, that the U.S. has Memorial Day, with its origins going back to after the Civil War, to specifically remember the fallen.


----------



## skyhigh10

Absolutely. 


It's actually quite sad that it isn't.  I would like to see Remembrance Day better recognized. I say reserve the day and do something great for one of your local units. It really isn't too much to ask.


----------



## mariomike

skyhigh10 said:
			
		

> It's actually quite sad that it isn't.  I would like to see Remembrance Day better recognized.



Remembrance Day has always been a Statutory Holiday where I used to work.

We worked Stat Holidays just as we would any other twelve-hour day or night shift.

"An appropriate recognition of Remembrance Day will occur in the workplace."

"If the employee works on a designated holiday, the employee will be paid two (2) times his regular rate for time so worked, and in addition shall be paid for a full day ( 12 hours ) at his regular rate of pay."

"If the employee does not work on the designated holiday, the employee will be paid for a full day ( 12 hours ) at his regular rate of pay."

Edited.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Hmmm, I remember a wise man talking about this years ago....


http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/42677/post-372980.html#msg372980

dileas

tess


----------



## Edward Campbell

I disagree.

The existing "holiday" for government employees should be cancelled - we can have a new, "nicer" _Veterans' Day_ in, say, Jun or Sep, when the weather is nicer, that will pacify the unions.

Remembrance Day should become, à la the UK, Remembrance Sunday, with official events in all the communities that want them, on the Sunday before 11 Nov.

:2c:


----------



## krustyrl

I would like Rememberance Day to be a National Holiday but fear that some of the public would soon look at it as a day off of work vice participate in any sort of Ceremony , afterall...it is to Remember The Sacrifice of so many so that we live the way we do and speak the language we share.!    :2c:                   :remembrance:   :brit poppy:   :remembrance:


----------



## 57Chevy

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Remembrance Day has nothing to do with veterans. It's a day to remember those who never got a chance to be veterans.



Bingo !

And mixing veterans issues into Remembrance Day ceremonies is a mistake.
It only takes away from its intended purpose.


I voted "no"


----------



## jollyjacktar

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I disagree.
> 
> The existing "holiday" for government employees should be cancelled - we can have a new, "nicer" _Veterans' Day_ in, say, Jun or Sep, when the weather is nicer, that will pacify the unions.
> 
> Remembrance Day should become, à la the UK, Remembrance Sunday, with official events in all the communities that want them, on the Sunday before 11 Nov.
> 
> :2c:


Thank you Edward.  I'm with you on this, it would hopefully be a solution to return the 11th to what it was intended.  A day to pay tribute to Veterans would be much more enjoyable in the warm weather of June.


----------



## cupper

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I disagree.
> 
> The existing "holiday" for government employees should be cancelled - we can have a new, "nicer" _Veterans' Day_ in, say, Jun or Sep, when the weather is nicer, that will pacify the unions.
> 
> Remembrance Day should become, à la the UK, Remembrance Sunday, with official events in all the communities that want them, on the Sunday before 11 Nov.
> 
> :2c:





			
				jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Thank you Edward.  I'm with you on this, it would hopefully be a solution to return the 11th to what it was intended.  A day to pay tribute to Veterans would be much more enjoyable in the warm weather of June.



My only fear would be that it would become the same situation as it is in the US, with Memorial Day / Veteran's Day. Memorial Day has the greater recognition, and Veteran's Day is just another work day for everyone except government (or an excuse for a big sale).


----------



## mariomike

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> The existing "holiday" for government employees should be cancelled -



I do not doubt my former employer would love to cut the gravy take away benefits that were negotiated decades ago. 

Since Emergency Services do not have ( and do not seek ) the right to strike, any proposed take-aways by the City would have to go to binding interest arbitration. 

If they had any chance of winning with an Arbitrator, I suspect they would have done so years ago.



			
				E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> - we can have a new, "nicer" _Veterans' Day_ in, say, Jun or Sep, when the weather is nicer, that will pacify the unions.



The Canadian National Exhibition ( CNE ) has hosted the Warrior's Day Parade every summer since 1921:
http://www.thewarriorsdayparade.ca/Parade%20History-Guide.html

Edited.


----------



## skyhigh10

57Chevy said:
			
		

> Bingo !
> 
> And mixing veterans issues into Remembrance Day ceremonies is a mistake.
> It only takes away from its intended purpose.
> 
> 
> I voted "no"




I never thought about it this way. Makes complete sense.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

No.


----------



## dimsum

I agree with most of the people here that Remembrance Day shouldn't be a public holiday.  In Oz, ANZAC Day is a national holiday and while a lot of people do end up going to the Dawn Service and parade(s), it just ends up as a drunken mess by about 11am so lots of people (specifically those with children/etc.) seem to skip it.

I think the UK's Remembrance Sunday is the right idea.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

krustyrl said:
			
		

> it is to Remember The Sacrifice of so many so that we live the way we do and *speak the language we share*.!



English?
French?
Mandarin?
Tagalog (the fastest growing foreign language in Canada, and the most-spoken foreign language in Edmonton; the second-most-spoken foreign language in Calgary; and the sixth-most-common in Vancouver and Toronto)?

Whatever Remembrance Day is about, it sure isn't language.


----------



## Pat in Halifax

PPCLI Guy;
Maybe not the PC way of saying it but I think most understand krustyrl's point.
I can't believe some want to move it until June or move it to the Sunday before the 11th. The 11th holds historical meaning. As for moving it to summer, let's move Christmas and New Years too! (I jest of course)
My God, it is one day - One day we set aside for a lifetime of sacrifice on the part of a relatively small group - a group who happens to be 'unavailable' to pay respects to fellow fallen comrades-in-arms.
I am leaving now to prepare to head into the city for this morning's ceremony-It is sunny but with a brisk wind and a little above freezing...but it is NOTHING in comparison to the discomfort experienced by those this day commemorates.

Pat


----------



## The Bread Guy

The optimist in me thinks if it was a holiday, there would be more potential for people to attend ceremonies and become engaged in remembering.  

The pessimist in me thinks it would eventually become another long weekend for people to take in sales.


----------



## Pat in Halifax

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> The optimist in me thinks if it was a holiday, there would be more potential for people to attend ceremonies and become engaged in remembering.
> 
> The pessimist in me thinks it would eventually become another long weekend for people to take in sales.



I hate to say but fear you are indeed correct. That said, I notice a much more diverse (and younger) crowd at ceremonies. Maybe this generation may embrace this more???...maybe?


----------



## The Bread Guy

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> I hate to say but fear you are indeed correct. That said, I notice a much more diverse (and younger) crowd at ceremonies. Maybe this generation may embrace this more???...maybe?


I'll be interested to see the size and make-up of today's crowd compared to other years, given it's a Sunday - nobody has the excuse NOT to go.

Mind you, this is Thunder Bay, where the crowds are split 3 ways for Remembrance Day ceremonies, but that's a whole other add-on to the Legion thread....  :


----------



## Loachman

No.


----------



## Journeyman

No, it's not required.

(Of course, it wouldn't be a 'holiday' for those of us in uniform anyway)   :remembrance:


----------



## cphansen

No not a national holiday,  I prefer it the way it is when the observers have to make a personal effort to remeber.  On Remeberence Day,  I like the way some drivers pull over to the side and just stop for two minutes as a mark of respect.  The world may be asking us to keep going and rush rush rush but two minutes can be found to show respect.

Unfortunately, I will be staying in today because of knee problems, I will be watching the national ceremonies and thinking of family friends who participated.

I'll think of people like Frode Nielson of Sawyerville, Quebec, who came to Canada in the twenties from Denmark, worked as a farm hand and managed to achieve his life's desire to have a farm of his own free and clear.  When the war started he dropped everything to enlist in RCEME.  He became a dispatch rider, was mentioned in dispatches a couple of times and survived the war.  He came home and started up again with his farm and his beloved horses.

I think of Maj Smart, who fought the Japanesse in Burma, survived and emigrated to Canada.  Until his dying day,  he despised the Japanese.

I was a Sherbrooke Hussar and was on the strength of "C" Squadron when we had an armoury in Bury Quebec.  I used to read the names on the memorial there to myself, There were 30 names from the Royal Rifles of Canada, who were all individuals who had tranfered from the strength of the 7/11 Hussars and were lost in Hong Kong.

Then there were the casualites from the war in Europe from The Sherbrooke Fusilier Regiment  over 220 of them.  I used to look at those names on an plaque in the officer's mess and wish the plaque was in the Drill Hall,  where the names could read and honoured by the current members of the regiment.

I also think of individuals like my father who were in the underground in Denmark and managed to survive.  I think of people I know who were concentration camp survivors and were only alive because the war ended.

Somehow we have a lot to remember and be grateful for.


----------



## Blackadder1916

SMG I said:
			
		

> Do you agree with Remembrance Day becoming a National Holiday?
> 
> I fully support it!
> 
> I think it is definitely time for us to honour those who fought for a better world, us, and our freedom in a better way and died along the journey.
> 
> As well as those veterans who did the same, and lost their friends along the way.



What do you mean by "National Holiday"?

Do you want it recognized and proclaimed a holiday by the federal government?  Well, it already is.  See Holidays Act R.S.C., 1985, c. H-5


> Remembrance Day
> 
> 3. November 11, being the day in the year 1918 on which the Great War was triumphantly concluded by an armistice, is a holiday and shall be kept and observed as such throughout Canada under the name of "Remembrance Day".



Or is your complaint that you live in a province where you do not automatically have the day off with pay to do as you please?  Well, that's not a "national" problem, but is dealt with by labour and employment legislation, regulations and standards.  While Remembrance Day is a national holiday and included in the the Canada Labour Code as one of the "general holidays" (i.e. paid holidays), that federal legislation is applicable, in essence, only to federal employees and those whose industries are regulated by the federal government.  The Federal Government does not (and can not) dictate to the provinces how to regulate employment practices in their jurisdictions.

Or is your complaint that there are businesses open during the hours when Remembrance ceremonies are traditionally held?  Again, that's within individual provincial jurisdiction.

Since it is already a "National Holiday" (i.e. so proclaimed in federal legislation which is the most that the federal government can do), what is your complaint and what do you want to happen?


----------



## X Royal

I feel it should be a national statutory holiday. In Ontario it's not a holiday unless you work in a federally regulated industry or have a negotiated day off.
As it sits now unlike this year if Nov. 11th is on a week day I'm at work and not at the cenotaph.
I also believe that it should be a day that is observed on the day it falls and not one which can be moved to create a long weekend.
Some form off of compensation should be allowed for those required to work on the 11th.
When I was in I don't recall working on the 11th. Yes a mandatory Resemblance Day parade but I don't consider that work.
Only time I worked on the 11th was on UN tour or when recalled for standby security after the train derailment in Mississauga.


----------



## 392

X Royal said:
			
		

> When I was in I don't recall working on the 11th. Yes a mandatory Resemblance Day parade but I don't consider that work.
> Only time I worked on the 11th was on UN tour or when recalled for standby security after the train derailment in Mississauga.



Most likely because Nov 11th is on the list of Stat holidays in the leave regulations   I don't consider 11 Nov a leave day, but I don't consider it work either. Kind of fits somewhere in the middle in the grey area...


----------



## SMG III

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> What do you mean by "National Holiday"?
> 
> Do you want it recognized and proclaimed a holiday by the federal government?  Well, it already is.  See Holidays Act R.S.C., 1985, c. H-5
> Or is your complaint that you live in a province where you do not automatically have the day off with pay to do as you please?  Well, that's not a "national" problem, but is dealt with by labour and employment legislation, regulations and standards.  While Remembrance Day is a national holiday and included in the the Canada Labour Code as one of the "general holidays" (i.e. paid holidays), that federal legislation is applicable, in essence, only to federal employees and those whose industries are regulated by the federal government.  The Federal Government does not (and can not) dictate to the provinces how to regulate employment practices in their jurisdictions.
> 
> Or is your complaint that there are businesses open during the hours when Remembrance ceremonies are traditionally held?  Again, that's within individual provincial jurisdiction.
> 
> Since it is already a "National Holiday" (i.e. so proclaimed in federal legislation which is the most that the federal government can do), what is your complaint and what do you want to happen?



I am NOT complaining I don't get the day off. I am in Air Cadets, and soon to be the military. I get the day off to go to the parade, and I think that others should too. Businesses should be closed, people should participate.

I don't get how it's a "national holiday", when people work and businesses are open throughout the whole day. If we can make time to celebrate a new year which means nothing, why not remember those who fell for us?


----------



## Blackadder1916

SMG I said:
			
		

> . . . . . I get the day off to go to the parade, and I think that others should too. Businesses should be closed, people should participate.
> 
> *I don't get how it's a "national holiday"*, when people work and businesses are open throughout the whole day. If we can make time to celebrate a new year which means nothing, why not remember those who fell for us?



It's a "national holiday" because the Government of Canada passed legislation that said it was a holiday.  Howevr, that law does not mandate it as a day off work nor does it mandate the closure of businesses on that day; there is other legislation that designates such (for federal employees and industries) and even then it cannot (constitutionally) dictate how individual provinces will observe the day.  According to that same law (Holidays Act) so are Canada Day and Victoria Day.  Of course, there is no legal compulsion to perform any act of celebration or remembrance on those specific days.  We are not, after all, a totalitarian state.  Personally, I rarely celebrate Canada Day as a national birthday party (though I am not so stupid as to pass up a day off or avoid the consumption of alcoholic beverages with jovial companions - I have a similar policy re beverages on Remembrance Day).  My first thoughts of July 1 is as "Memorial Day" - that was a Newfoundland "national" day of remembrance for our war dead.  The acceptance of that day to honour our fallen predates "Armistice Day".

Since there are provinces that have legislation making Remembrance Day either a holiday, or a day of observance, or some other day that permits or encourages the closure of schools and workplaces as well in some jurisdictions mandates the closure of businesses and restricts the sale of alcohol until after remembrance ceremonies, it seems that your complaint is with your province.  Even if it did become a holiday in your jurisdiction, what makes you think that those who do not participate now would be flocking to services on Nov 11.

I can't speak much specifically to how the day was observed in years long past except for Newfoundland (and even then I'm not as old as some of the codgers who frequent this forum).  However, even though it wasn't a "holiday", shop closing was common.  The business activity of the day was often regulated to be the same as a Sunday (back in the stone age there was no such thing as shopping on Sunday).  At one time in Newfoundland, the November day of remembrance was (I believe) similar to the United Kingdom - the public ceremonies were on the nearest Sunday.  The closeness to and eventual Confederation with Canada was probably why that changed.  If one did some research there would probably be a correlation between changes in public activities (stores open, etc . . .) on Remembrance Day with changes to Sunday shopping.

Personally, as a traditionalist, I see no need to change how we either regulate or commemorate Remembrance Day.  Well, actually, I would prefer to see more remembrance and less of the "hero worship" that seems to be in vogue, but that will probably fade away like most fashions.  It would have made sense (in years past) if we had followed the UK practice of Remembrance Sunday but since that is not now our tradition, it should not be changed.


----------



## ModlrMike

:goodpost:


----------



## X Royal

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> It's a "national holiday" because the Government of Canada passed legislation that said it was a holiday.


I never seen such legislation.
Yes it is a recognized statutory holiday for those places subject to federal labour rules.
For those not subject to the federal rules they fall under the provincial jurisdictions. Here you may or may not have Remembrance Day as a statutory holiday.
A national holiday by definition would apply to the whole nation. 
Remembrance Day does not meet this definition.


----------



## Edward Campbell

X Royal said:
			
		

> I never seen such legislation.
> 
> Holidays Act ~ well, now you have.
> 
> Yes it is a recognized statutory holiday for those places subject to federal labour rules. Yep
> For those not subject to the federal rules they fall under the provincial jurisdictions. Here you may or may not have Remembrance Day as a statutory holiday. Yep, again
> A national holiday by definition would apply to the whole nation. Nope, see Holidays Act
> Remembrance Day does not meet this definition. Yes it does. That pesky Holidays Act srikes again!


----------



## X Royal

E. R. Campbell The Holiday Act in respect to Remembrance Day does not apply to most Ontario workers (aprox 90%) as the Provincial legislation over rules it.
Any Act that can be over ruled by Provincial legislation is therefore not National in scope.

By the way if you actually read the Holidays Act you will be able to note something.
Remembrance Day is listed as a holiday as opposed to Canada Day and Victoria Day which are listed as *legal* holidays.
When it comes to laws one missing word in the legislation can completely change the meaning of the law.

In the future if you feel the need to quote me please keep your comments out of the quote box bearing my name. Feel free to answer each point separately but outside the box bearing my name.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

X Royal said:
			
		

> In the future if you feel the need to quote me please keep your comments out of the quote box bearing my name. Feel free to answer each point separately but outside the box bearing my name.



That particular form of discussion has been an accepted way of doing things here since Day One. It will likely remains so.

Feel free to request accomodation from other posters, but don't demand, as they have no responsibility to comply with you.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Nice to see ERC and XRoyal talking at each other, but both missing each other's points  .

In fact, XRoyal: ERC is correct to point out that the Holidays Act is federal legislation that declares Remembrance day a Holiday. Thus it is a National holiday, as opposed to one that would exist in only one province or a single Town (which would be Provincial or Municipal holidays).

However ERC, XRoyal's nuance is quite astute: the designation of Victoria day and Canada day as legal holidays is extremely important because all Provinces and territories have legislation, from their Labour codes, Labour standards acts, Financial Markets legislation etc, all the way to the Business Hours acts, that provide for what is permitted or how you are paid or employed on a day declared a legal holiday. It is that specific designation in the Federal Holidays act that triggers the consequences we all know on V. Day and C. Day across the whole of Canada.

If the act was only amended to add "legal" before the word holiday in the paragraph that refers to Remembrance day, all the same consequences would immediately ensue across Canada.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> However ERC, XRoyal's nuance is quite astute: the designation of Victoria day and Canada day as legal holidays is extremely important because all Provinces and territories have legislation, from their Labour codes, Labour standards acts, Financial Markets legislation etc, all the way to the Business Hours acts, that provide for what is permitted or how you are paid or employed on a day declared a legal holiday. *It is that specific designation in the Federal Holidays act that triggers the consequences we all know on V. Day and C. Day across the whole of Canada*.
> 
> If the act was only amended to add "legal" before the word holiday in the paragraph that refers to Remembrance day, all the same consequences would immediately ensue across Canada.



The word "legal" triggers nothing of the sort.  My supposition is that the disparate wording of the Holidays Act likely came about by the amalgamation (years ago) of separate statutes/amendments.  The Holidays Act also doesn't confer any requirement (paid days off, commitment to commemorate, etc) other than to acknowledge those specific dates as the ones to be used for those purposes.  If, as you contend, use of the word "legal" demands Victoria Day be a paid holiday in all provinces, why is it not a public holiday in Newfoundland?
The public holidays in NL according to their Labor Standards Act are:
http://assembly.nl.ca/legislation/sr/statutes/l02.htm#14_


> Meaning of "public holiday"
> 
> 14. (1) In this Part, "public holiday" means
> 
> (a)  New Year's Day;
> 
> (b)  Good Friday;
> 
> (b.1)  Remembrance Day;
> 
> (c)  Memorial Day;
> 
> (d)  Labour Day;
> 
> (e)  Christmas Day; and
> 
> (f)  other days that may be proclaimed by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council as a public holiday for the purpose of this Act.



You will also note that Canada Day is not on that list, but Memorial Day falls on the same date.  The sub-para listing Remembrance Day (note the odd numbering) was an amendment that was added in 2001.


Edited to add

In all fairness I should acknowledge that there is other NL legislation that has additional days of "holidays" including Victoria Day (but they are only for the purpose of that other act).

Shops' Closing Act
http://assembly.nl.ca/legislation/sr/statutes/s15.htm


> Holidays
> 
> 4. (1) For the purpose of this Act, the following days are holidays:
> 
> (a)  in all areas of the province,
> 
> (i)  Easter Sunday,
> (ii)  Labour Day,
> (iii)  Thanksgiving Day,
> (iv)  Remembrance Day (November 11),
> (v)  Christmas Day,
> (vi)  Boxing Day,
> (vii)  New Year's Day,
> (viii)  Good Friday,
> (ix)  Victoria Day, and
> (x)  Memorial Day or Canada Day (July 1);
> 
> (b)  in all areas of the province a day that may be proclaimed by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council to be observed as a public holiday, or as a day of general mourning;
> 
> (c)  in a particular municipality, other than the City of St. John's and the Town of Harbour Grace, 1 day in each year, which the council of that municipality may fix as a public holiday;
> 
> (d)  in the City of St. John's, the day in each year ultimately determined, in the manner prescribed by custom, for the St. John's Annual Regatta; and
> 
> (e)  in the Town of Harbour Grace , the day in each year ultimately determined, in the manner prescribed by custom, for the Harbour Grace Annual Regatta.
> 
> (2)  Victoria Day shall be celebrated in the province on the 1st Monday immediately preceding May 25.
> 
> (3)  Labour Day shall be celebrated in the province on the 1st Monday in September.
> 
> (4)  [Rep. by 2001 c13 s1]
> 
> (5)  Thanksgiving Day shall be celebrated on the Monday in October that is proclaimed by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council for the observation of that day.
> 
> (6)  [Rep. by 2001 c42 s41]



Only the holidays in the Labour Standards Act are paid holidays and the Shops' Closing Act applies only to "shops" (i.e.,  the part of a premises or a place in which or from which a wholesale or retail trade or business is carried on), however it is likely that other businesses may close on those days.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Bumped with the latest from an NDP MP to make November 11th a national holiday:


> Fresh off a national outpouring of support for Canadian troops in Afghanistan, a private member’s bill to be introduced Wednesday in the House of Commons calls for Remembrance Day to be recognized as a national statutory holiday.
> 
> New Democrat MP Dan Harris expects to table a bill that would establish a cross-country standard to treat Nov. 11 as a national statutory holiday. Currently, a hodgepodge of provincial legislation marks Remembrance Day across Canada.
> 
> Various Conservatives, NDP and Liberal MPs have expressed support for either making Remembrance Day a paid statutory holiday, or at least further examining the issue. However, Veterans Affairs Minister Julian Fantino has said he does not believe Nov. 11 needs to be a formal holiday to mark its importance and have Canadians pay their respects.
> 
> Currently, several provinces, representing more than half of Canada’s population — Ontario, Quebec, Manitoba and Nova Scotia — do not recognize Remembrance Day as an official paid statutory holiday.
> 
> But the rest of the provinces and territories — British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, Newfoundland and Labrador, Yukon, Northwest Territories and Nunavut — do mark it as a paid general holiday.
> 
> In all cases, there is differing legislation on how the day affects business hours and workers ....


----------



## CougarKing

Thoughts, anyone?

Andy Radia Canadian Politics column/Yahoo News



> *Following soldier slayings, renewed interest in making Remembrance Day a national holiday*
> By Andy Radia | Canada Politics – 23 hours ago
> 
> Every November, it seems, a debate rages about whether or not Remembrance Day should be a national holiday.
> 
> *Currently, people in Ontario, Quebec, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia have to work on Nov. 11.
> 
> Well, Dan Harris, the NDP MP for Scarborough Southwest,* hopes to put an end to that debate once and for all.
> 
> Harris is the latest member of Parliament to introduce a private member's bill to make Remembrance Day a national statutory holiday to be treated just like Canada Day.
> 
> That bill – *Bill C-597* – will be debated in the House of Commons for the first time Monday evening.
> 
> In a telephone interview with Yahoo Canada News, *Harris argued that all Canadians should have the opportunity to go their local cenotaphs on Nov. 11th to pay their respects to the veterans who have risked and lost their lives in service to our country.
> 
> "Every year at the cenotaph in Scarborough there’s always some people who can’t make it because they have to work," he told Yahoo Canada News. *
> 
> He notes that the recent deadly attacks against two Canadian soldiers in St-Jean-sur-Richelieu and Ottawa have certainly given the issue more profile.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)
> 
> *One of the arguments against having Remembrance Day as a national holiday is that instead of using it as a day to commemorate our veterans, many Canadians will use it to sleep-in, shop, or go skiing and war becomes the furthest thing from their minds.*
> 
> The dissenters ask a valid question: do Canadians really think about the labour movement’s sacrifices on Labour Day?
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## Lightguns

Of two minds, as a national holiday, attendance will go down as folks plan other things on a defined day off.  It's a holiday here in NB, and many go deer hunting instead, many more just do not get up and watch it on TV.  Leave it as it is and it will likely become less and less important as the vet pool grows smaller, particularly since the new vet prefers smaller vet orgs and steers away from Legion membership.


----------



## cryco

I find it odd that I get a day off for a long gone queen's birthday that had wealth and power and led a pretty good life; whereas a day that marks the many brave men and women who gave up their lives to ensure that the generations to come enjoyed the freedoms they had and some they didn't have yet  is not a day off.
But then again, will it change anything by taking a day off? One minute of silence can be taken anywhere. I just can't find a damn poppy. They used to be everywhere.


----------



## Edward Campbell

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I disagree.
> 
> The existing "holiday" for government employees should be cancelled - we can have a new, "nicer" _Veterans' Day_ in, say, Jun or Sep, when the weather is nicer, that will pacify the unions.
> 
> Remembrance Day should become, à la the UK, Remembrance Sunday, with official events in all the communities that want them, on the Sunday before 11 Nov.
> 
> :2c:




This is all I have to say ... well, bot quite, there was an earlier rant, but this is enough.


----------



## George Wallace

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> This is all I have to say ... well, bot quite, there was an earlier rant, but this is enough.



Seems to be an annual debate/good idea faerie suggestion.  Perhaps we should have the clock reset on all the posts in this thread to reset annually as well and cut down on redundancies.


----------



## George Wallace

cryco said:
			
		

> I find it odd that I get a day off for a long gone queen's birthday that had wealth and power and led a pretty good life; whereas a day that marks the many brave men and women who gave up their lives to ensure that the generations to come enjoyed the freedoms they had and some they didn't have yet  is not a day off.
> But then again, will it change anything by taking a day off? One minute of silence can be taken anywhere. I just can't find a damn poppy. They used to be everywhere.



Actually, Victoria Day has evolved to be an annual ceremonial celebration of the monarchs birthday, no matter that the current monarch's birthday is on another date.  It is set so that each month has a Holiday, not several; although not all months currently have a holiday.  Also, we would constantly be changing the holiday, by day and month for every reigning monarch if we had not just selected Victoria Day to do so.


----------



## cryco

Nevertheless, I would prefer paying homage to our fallen then to previous or current monarchs through a day off. And November could use one.


----------



## cupper

S.M.A. said:
			
		

> Thoughts, anyone?
> 
> Andy Radia Canadian Politics column/Yahoo News



The author needs to fact check a little closer. Although Remembrance Day is not listed as a statutory holiday under the Labour Standards Code, it is covered under the Remembrance Day Act.

http://nslegislature.ca/legc/statutes/remembrc.htm



> An Act Respecting the
> Observance of Remembrance Day
> 
> 
> WHEREAS our heritage of freedom and human dignity has, under Providence, been preserved through the unselfish devotion of those who sacrificed health, limb and life itself in World War One, World War Two and the Korean Conflict;
> AND WHEREAS the eleventh day of November has traditionally been set aside throughout Nova Scotia as a day to be kept and observed in each and every year under the name "Remembrance Day";
> AND WHEREAS it is fitting that on Remembrance Day the people of Nova Scotia should pay grateful tribute to the memory of those who have died, cherish those who have suffered grievous injury, and dedicate themselves anew to the maintenance and furtherance of the great ideals hallowed by those sacrifices:
> Short title
> 
> 1	This Act may be cited as the Remembrance Day Act. R.S., c. 396, s. 1.
> Interpretation
> 
> 2	In this Act,
> (a)	"employee" means a person who is in receipt of, or entitled to, compensation for labour or services performed for another in an industry, but does not include an independent contractor;
> (b)	"employer" means a person, firm, corporation, agent, manager, representative, contractor, sub-contractor or principal, having control or direction of, or who is responsible directly or indirectly for, the employment of an employee in an industry;
> (c)	"goods" means personal property;
> (d)	"hospitality industry" means the provision of accommodation, camping, food, beverage, recreation, related services and facilities, and tourist information and includes a private club, fraternal organization and veterans organization;
> (e)	"industry" means a business, trade or profession except
> (i)	farming,
> (ii)	fishing and aquaculture,
> (iii)	Christmas tree operations,
> (iv)	tree harvesting, logging and forest industry as defined by the Labour Standards Code,
> (v)	industrial undertakings as defined by the Labour Standards Code;
> (f)	"performance" includes any game, match, sport, contest, exhibition, entertainment, dance, program, theatrical presentation or motion picture presentation;
> (g)	"Remembrance Day" means the whole of the eleventh day of November in each year. R.S., c. 396, s. 2.
> Prohibited activity on Remembrance Day
> 
> 3	Except as herein provided, no person shall, on Remembrance Day,
> (a)	sell, offer for sale or purchase any goods or real property; or
> (b)	for gain or reward engage as employer or employee in any industry. R.S., c. 396, s. 3.
> Section 3 does not apply
> 
> 4	Section 3 does not apply to
> (a)	the operation of hospitals or work for the relief of sickness or suffering;
> (b)	the operation of a facility licensed under the Day Care Act;
> (c)	the operation of drug stores except in department stores;
> (d)	the operation of service stations;
> (e)	the work of police officers, firefighters, prison guards, furnace tenders, watchmen, janitors or domestic servants;
> (f)	the effecting of emergency repairs;
> (g)	the hospitality industry;
> (h)	conveying of goods or travellers on railways, buses or other public conveyances, and work incidental thereto;
> (i)	the caring for perishable products and live animals;
> (j)	the operation of a shop or store for the sale of goods if no more than three persons are in the shop or store at any one time for the purpose of operating it;
> (k)	the operation of a dairy, a milk processing plant or a dairy manufacturing plant and the distribution of its products directly to the consumer;
> (l)	the operation of a bakery for the baking of products for sale on the next succeeding day;
> (m)	the conducting, in fish plants or meat packing plants, of those processes that cannot be postponed without serious deterioration of product quality, and the carrying on of such other operations as are necessary in receiving, paying for and shipping such products;
> the doing of any work without the doing of which on Remembrance Day electric current, telephone service, heat, fuel oil, gas, gasoline, light or water cannot be continuously supplied;
> (o)	work incidental to the conducting of commemorative or religious services;
> (p)	the operation of the office of a broker who is registered as such under the Securities Act and who, in the conduct of his business, has occasion on behalf of clients to transact business on Remembrance Day on stock exchanges outside the Province;
> (q)	broadcasting as defined by the Defamation Act;
> (r)	the publication of newspapers including all work necessary for, or incidental to, the preparation, printing and distribution thereof;
> (s)	the completion, before six oclock in the forenoon of Remembrance Day, of a regular shift or tour of duty commenced on the previous day, or the beginning, after nine oclock, on the afternoon of Remembrance Day, of a regular shift or tour of duty continuing into the next following day. R.S., c. 396, s. 4.
> Restriction on serving alcohol or performing
> 
> 5	Notwithstanding anything contained in this Act, no person shall
> (a)	carry on, give, produce or conduct a performance; or
> (b)	sell, offer for sale or serve in a commercial establishment an alcoholic beverage,
> before twelve oclock noon on Remembrance Day. R.S., c. 396, s. 5.
> Holiday with pay for employee required to work
> 
> 6	An employer of an employee in an industry who
> (a)	is required to work on Remembrance Day; and
> (b)	has received or is entitled to receive wages for at least fifteen days during the thirty calendar days immediately preceding Remembrance Day,
> shall grant the employee a holiday with pay on the working day immediately following the employees annual vacation or another day agreed upon by the employee and the employer. R.S., c. 396, s. 6.
> Three minute suspension of operation
> 
> 7	Every employer carrying on or engaged in an industry to which Section 3 does not apply shall, subject to Section 8, relieve the employees in the industry from duty, and suspend the operations of the industry, for a period of three minutes, at one minute before eleven oclock in the forenoon on Remembrance Day. R.S., c. 396, s. 7.
> Permit in emergency
> 
> 8	In circumstances beyond human control and for which no other arrangements can be made, the Minister of Labour may grant a permit for the doing of work required in the circumstances to meet an emergency, and the Minister may attach such conditions as he deems fair and reasonable in the circumstances. R.S., c. 396, s. 8.
> Offence and penalty for non-compliance
> 
> 9	(1)	Any person who contravenes, disobeys, or refuses, neglects, omits, or fails to observe and comply with any provision of this Act is guilty of an offence and is liable, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars.
> Offence and penalty on employer
> 
> (2)	An employer who authorizes, directs or knowingly permits anything to be done in violation of any provision of this Act is guilty of an offence and is liable, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding fifteen thousand dollars. R.S., c. 396, s. 9.


----------



## mariomike

From looking at this map. It must have been almost impossible for those alive at the time not to have known someone killed in war. 

There are three interactive maps. WW1, WW2 and Korea:
http://globalnews.ca/news/932833/griefs-geography-mapping-torontonians-killed-three-wars/


----------



## The Bread Guy

cupper said:
			
		

> The author needs to fact check a little closer. Although Remembrance Day is not listed as a statutory holiday under the Labour Standards Code, it is covered under the Remembrance Day Act.
> 
> http://nslegislature.ca/legc/statutes/remembrc.htm


That may be the case in Nova Scotia, as you've pointed out, as well as Manitoba, Alberta and other jurisdictions, but these folks are looking for a _national_ law.


----------



## Cronicbny

And this bill achieves no such thing - if you look at the existing Holidays Act (federal) he only proposes to add flags at half mast. Federally regulated employees already have Remembrance Day as a stat. The latest attempt at changing the legislation does not change that


----------



## mariomike

Cronicbny said:
			
		

> Federally regulated employees already have Remembrance Day as a stat.



So do all City of Toronto employees. It's been a stat at least as far back as 1972 when I hired on. I believe it has been a stat holiday for many decades. 
http://wx.toronto.ca/intra/hr/policies.nsf/0/b967430170bf0dba85256974005b87b2?OpenDocument


----------



## McG

cryco said:
			
		

> Nevertheless, I would prefer paying homage to our fallen ... through a day off. And November could use one.


A day off becomes more about one's self or consumerism.  It is bad enough that music broadcasts in shopping malls will be declaring "it's the most wonderful time of the year" as we should be paying homage to millions slaughtered through wars.  We don't need to legislate what would quickly become the official first shopping day of Christmas.

If you want to keep Remembrance Day in perspective, don't add it as a new vacation day to the calendar.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Personally, Nov 11 is the one day of the year I refuse to go to work, my time is better spent at the cenotaph than poking holes in semi frozen ground.


----------



## cryco

MCG said:
			
		

> A day off becomes more about one's self or consumerism.  It is bad enough that music broadcasts in shopping malls will be declaring "it's the most wonderful time of the year" as we should be paying homage to millions slaughtered through wars.  We don't need to legislate what would quickly become the official first shopping day of Christmas.
> 
> If you want to keep Remembrance Day in perspective, don't add it as a new vacation day to the calendar.


That may be. Of all the holidays we have, I only go out and celebrate Canada day. All the other days, are just another day off. I don't particularly care for Victoria day, or labor day and I grew up thinking thanksgiving day was a day that other people ate turkey. My Greek folks didn't bother with that. Christmas and Easter are more about traditions.
Remembrance day on the other hand, I would take a minute out of my day to silently thank all veterans, dead or alive. If it were a day off, there is a chance -yes, a chance - I would go out and do something to mark the day; unlike the other holidays where I just stay home and catch up on my renovations, do house work or go to the range.


----------



## Marchog

For what it's worth I agree with MCG. Don't do to Remembrance Day what they did to Christmas.


----------



## The Bread Guy

MCG said:
			
		

> A day off becomes more about one's self or consumerism.


I wish I could say differently, but I've noticed we didn't get larger turnouts when it was a stat many moons ago.


----------



## PMedMoe

MCG said:
			
		

> If you want to keep Remembrance Day in perspective, don't add it as a new vacation day to the calendar.



I agree.  If people are allowed an opportunity to pay respects in whatever way (time off to attend a ceremony, two minutes of silence at 11:00), there is no need to make it a stat holiday.  I don't believe it would generate larger crowds at parades and services.


----------



## X Royal

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I agree.  _*If people are allowed an opportunity to pay respects in whatever way*_ (time off to attend a ceremony, two minutes of silence at 11:00), there is no need to make it a stat holiday.


That's the whole problem.
Without a statutory holiday may don't get the chance.
I'm forced to use a vacation day or call in sick to attend the ceremony.
On now on vacation for the day and getting ready to go to the service.


----------



## PMedMoe

X Royal said:
			
		

> That's the whole problem.
> Without a statutory holiday may don't get the chance.



Several businesses honour the two minutes of silence.  Today, the TTC buses are going to stop for two minutes  at 11:00.

Yesterday, our cafeteria at work was closed due to a large number of people taking a leave day.  I'm betting most of those who took yesterday off, aren't attending a ceremony today.


----------



## jollyjacktar

I have just returned from the ceremony at Oyster Pond on the Eastern Shore of NS.  The weather as beautiful and the crowd was the biggest I believe I have ever seen.  What I was dismayed with, however, was the small turn out of those of us in uniform.  Maybe a dozen, if that.  It was the worst yet I have ever experienced in my 20 years here.


----------



## Brasidas

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I have just returned from the ceremony at Oyster Pond on the Eastern Shore of NS.  The weather as beautiful and the crowd was the biggest I believe I have ever seen.  What I was dismayed with, however, was the small turn out of those of us in uniform.  Maybe a dozen, if that.  It was the worst yet I have ever experienced in my 20 years here.



With directives like "you must travel in groups of two or more" and having to go directly to and from home, I'm not surprised at all.


----------



## jollyjacktar

It's a reasonably small community here.  Many of us know each other by sight.  There were a number of faces missing from the crowd today, uniform or not.


----------



## medicineman

Just got back from local ceremony in Selkirk - many people not enough parking spots actually.  Many uniforms to be seen too - I didn't travel in a uniformed group though (just slapped my own pinky).  I'm still alive though  .

MM


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

medicineman said:
			
		

> I'm still alive though  .
> 
> MM



In the US, you would get a Survival ribbon to wear on your uniform


----------



## kratz

I'm back from Sackville, NS and the service was twice as full as the past few years. A healthy number of uniforms were present, including more than 20 on duty police officers (and MPs).

Based on the straw poll in passing discussions, most people present were not in favour of making the day a national holiday, expressing many of the concerns discussed here.


----------



## expwor

I guess the problem with making anything a National Holiday anymore is it becomes just another reason not to go to work.  Mind you as an retired federal public servant Remembrance Day was always a Stat Holiday.  But if across the board it became a National Holiday just another day to go shopping, kids off from school etc etc etc  And other National Holidays had some underlying reasons for their being, but now are just excuses for days off.  About the only holidays, correct me if I'm wrong, that still carry meaning are Thanksgiving, Christmas and Good Friday/Easter
I find it ironic, having worked in Corrections that the Canadian Police & Peace Officers Memorial isn't just held on a Sunday and not able to be a National Holiday, but commemorated in Ottawa, even though there are Police and Peace Officers across Canada.  Surely Police and Peace Officers deserve to have across Canada celebration of the duties and risks they take
My two cents, probably not worth even that LOL

Tom


----------



## McG

Listened to the radio recount the hardships of one young mother.  Now that her kids are older and in school (as opposed to day care), her annual 11 Nov "me day" has been spoiled by the kids not being in class.  :

And the retailers are not missing an oportunity to exploit a sales gimmick on the back of this day either.


----------



## Brasidas

expwor said:
			
		

> I guess the problem with making anything a National Holiday anymore is it becomes just another reason not to go to work.  Mind you as an retired federal public servant Remembrance Day was always a Stat Holiday.  But if across the board it became a National Holiday just another day to go shopping, kids off from school etc etc etc  And other National Holidays had some underlying reasons for their being, but now are just excuses for days off.  About the only holidays, correct me if I'm wrong, that still carry meaning are Thanksgiving, Christmas and Good Friday/Easter
> I find it ironic, having worked in Corrections that the Canadian Police & Peace Officers Memorial isn't just held on a Sunday and not able to be a National Holiday, but commemorated in Ottawa, even though there are Police and Peace Officers across Canada.  Surely Police and Peace Officers deserve to have across Canada celebration of the duties and risks they take
> My two cents, probably not worth even that LOL
> 
> Tom



The Alberta Memorial was pretty decent. It was on a Sunday, well-organized, and well-attended. If other provinces are up to organizing something similar, I'm not seeing where the problem is.

Lost post with my comments on Remembrance Day as a stat, so I'll leave it at that.


----------



## mariomike

expwor said:
			
		

> I guess the problem with making anything a National Holiday anymore is it becomes just another reason not to go to work.



Where I worked, everybody reported for their regular 12-hour day or night shifts on Statutory Holidays. Remembrance Day was one of them. Crews were mandated to work stats just like any other day of the week.

The crew count was always highest on stats, because they paid triple time. For that reason, very few called in sick on a stat if they could possibly avoid it.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Some of the latest on a proposed private members bill to make Remembrance Day a "legal" holiday:


> An NDP private member’s bill meant to formally recognize Remembrance Day as a “legal” holiday appears to be dying a slow, silent death as the sun begins to set on the current session of Parliament.
> 
> The Harper government recently asked for more time to study the straightforward, single-clause bill, which comes before a second House of Commons committee Tuesday.
> 
> Ontario New Democrat MP Dan Harris, who introduced the proposed legislation, says it’s highly unlikely the bill will make it through the House of Commons and the Senate before summer, when Parliament adjourns prior to a fall election.
> 
> “It certainly seems like they’ve hit the brakes hard on this bill,” said Harris, who accused Conservatives of tying it up by asking the veterans affairs committee to study the matter after it had already been reviewed.
> 
> “They seem to be doing everything they can to stop it.” ....


----------



## ModlrMike

Personally, I'd agree with not making it a stat holiday. I think that the day would rapidly lose significance and become just another "sleep 'til noon, futz around" day. I think Manitoba is on the right track. Not a holiday, but no commerce prior to noon.


----------



## McG

A Liberal private member's bill has brought this topic back to life.  Hopefully it gets voted down.
Whatever you may think of the organization, the Legion has it right on this topic: 





> *Just another day off: Why the Canadian Legion opposes making Remembrance Day an official holiday*
> Tristin Hopper
> National Post
> 08 Nov 16
> 
> Spurred by a private member’s bill drafted by Liberal MP Colin Fraser, the House of Commons is convening a committee on whether to update the Holidays Act to make Remembrance Day a “legal” holiday.
> 
> It would still be up to the provinces to decide, but Fraser sees his proposed amendment as a good first step.
> 
> “Personally, I believe that it would be appropriate for Remembrance Day to be a statutory holiday in every province and territory in Canada,” he told the House.
> 
> But the measure faces stiff opposition from an organization that has been campaigning against a Remembrance Day holiday for more than 40 years; the Royal Canadian Legion.
> 
> “If it was institutionalized and made a statutory holiday, the impression would be that people in their homes would not make the effort to attend a downtown ceremony,” said Bill Maxwell, secretary of the legion’s poppy and remembrance committee.
> 
> Few Canadians, for instance, spend Labour Day reflecting on the 19th-century Toronto labour protest it was meant to commemorate. Ditto Victoria Day, which was originally enacted so Canadians could spend the day cheering the birthday of whoever happened to be the reigning monarch.
> 
> “For most, (Victoria Day) just provides for a long weekend in May,” legion representative Brad White told a Veterans Affairs committee in 2015. “We must not let Remembrance Day suffer this same fate.”
> 
> This is not the first attempt to add Remembrance Day to the holiday calendar.
> 
> In 1996, the House of Commons defeated a private member’s bill looking to enshrine Remembrance Day as a holiday in public service collective agreements. An New Democratic Party bill nearly identical to Fraser’s died last year on the order paper — and a statutory Remembrance Day was even an NDP election promise.
> 
> As far back as the late 1970s, the Royal Canadian Legion was advocating against government proposals to turn Remembrance Day into a “floating holiday” for federal employees.
> 
> In fact, in the late 1920s Remembrance Day (then known as Armistice Day) was celebrated on the Monday closest to Nov. 11. It was legion advocacy that helped to fix the commemoration on Nov. 11 proper.
> 
> Remembrance Day is already a paid holiday for most of Canada’s 35 million people. Only residents of Ontario, Quebec have to go to school that day. although various civil servants have the day off. Various other jurisdictions, such as Nova Scotia or Ottawa, will see public sector workers kept at home while many private businesses remain open.
> 
> In B.C., for instance, there is no school on Nov. 11, but Remembrance Day assemblies are typically held on the closest school day.
> 
> The legion is not the only veterans group to bemoan the holidaying of Remembrance Day.
> 
> “Our stance is that it should never be a holiday; you take away the uniqueness of being able to educate the younger generation of the horrors of war,” said Rob Larman, a director with the War Amps of Canada.
> 
> But Mike Blais, founder of Canadian Veterans Advocacy, is in favour of a nationwide statutory holiday.
> 
> “When we have a national holiday where respect is paid on a national level, the spirit of the nation is satisfied,” he told Postmedia in 2014.
> 
> The legion itself is split on the question.
> 
> Thirteen times since 1970, legion conventions have featured a resolution to recognize Remembrance Day as a holiday. But each time, most recently in 2012, the “no holiday” camp won the day.
> 
> The current issue of Legion Magazine has a pro and con article debating the merits of a statutory Remembrance Day.
> 
> Former Veterans Affairs Minister Erin O’Toole, a veteran, has observed Remembrance Day in a province where it’s a holiday (Nova Scotia) and one where it isn’t (Ontario).
> 
> O’Toole said that the cenotaph ceremonies in Nova Scotia were “much more crowded … than ones I attended in Ontario,” but they clearly only included a fraction of the schoolchildren who had the day off.
> 
> “My personal view is that if kids are not in school … there is a likelihood that a majority of children would not get the same level of education and appreciation for the service and sacrifice the day represents,” he wrote in an email to the National Post.
> 
> When Remembrance Day was recognized as Armistice Day in 1921, it was notable for the considerable thoroughness with which life came to a stop for the two minutes’ silence at 11 a.m. All across the then-British Empire, courts paused proceedings, traffic halted, and factories and construction sites fell silent.
> 
> Nov. 11 isn’t nearly as dramatic anymore. But the legion’s general opinion is that another day off doesn’t quite have the resonance of a nation full of schoolchildren bowing their heads, labourers laying down their tools and office workers standing up at their cubicles.
> 
> “Rather than having a day off, commemoration or remembrance should be emphasized at the workplace or in the schools,” said Maxwell.


http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/just-another-day-off-why-the-canadian-legion-opposes-making-remembrance-day-an-official-holiday

If the government wants to increase the observance of Remembrance Day, then legislate that public servants and federally regulated employees are authorized to leave work in the two hours preceding lunch for the purpose of attending a local ceremony (except where a ceremony is the place of work).  And, establish a federal grant that provincially regulated schools can access to fund remembrance programs on 11 Nov or the closest working day.  This grant could cover participation in the No Stone Left Alone program for those provinces that have it.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

There was a time here, that the schools emptied and assembled at the Cenotaph, for the service. And yes, we walked there.


----------



## mariomike

MCG said:
			
		

> If the government wants to increase the observance of Remembrance Day, then legislate that public servants and federally regulated employees are authorized to leave work in the two hours preceding lunch for the purpose of attending a local ceremony (except where a ceremony is the place of work).



How would that apply to front-line Police Officers, Firefighters and Paramedics?

We report for duty on Remembrance Day, Christmas Day and all other Stat. Holidays same as any other day or night shift.

We don't go off duty for lunch or leave work to attend ceremonies.


----------



## McG

mariomike said:
			
		

> How would that apply to front-line Police Officers, Firefighters and Paramedics?


How do stat holiday's apply to front-line Police Officers, Firefighters and Paramedics?
Your answer to this question can be applied to your question.


----------



## mariomike

MCG said:
			
		

> How do stat holiday's apply to front-line Police Officers, Firefighters and Paramedics?
> Your answer to this question can be applied to your question.



If taking away Remembrance Day from the Stat. Holiday list is an economic consideration,

If Remembrance Day, or any other Stat. Holiday, falls on your regular days or nights off, 

"The employee shall be paid for the full day or night at his regular rate of pay." That means an extra 12 hours pay at regular time.

"If the employee works on the actual holiday the employee will be paid two (2) times his regular rate of pay for the time so worked and in addition shall be paid for the full day or night at his regular rate of pay."

That means triple time for the entire 12 hours.

( For pay calculations,  all shifts - day or night - are always worked and paid 12 hours, not 8. )

Called in on  OT on Remembrance Day,  or any Stat.?  That's Golden Time.  

Remembrance Day has been a Stat. Holiday long before I hired on.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Bumping this in hopes of hearing how Remembrance Day'll be observed in other parts of Canada in these COVID-19 days.

Here, in Thunder Bay ....


> ... Organizers of the area’s big three ceremonies have said they have significantly scaled back plans for Nov. 11 because of pandemic gathering restrictions imposed by the province that limit outdoor crowds to 25 or fewer people and indoor crowds to no more than 10.
> 
> The annual indoor ceremony at Fort William Gardens has been cancelled, with a much smaller outdoor event slated for the cenotaph at city hall.
> 
> A smaller version of the event at Waverley Park will still be held in its usual spot, but only three wreaths will be laid during the ceremony, which normally involves members of the local military and police and hundreds of onlookers.
> 
> Instead the Silver Cross mother will lay the first wreath, along with two others.
> 
> The service on Mount McKay will also be a scaled back version, with those wishing to lay a wreath being asked to come on their own once the annual ceremony concludes.
> 
> Les Newman, president of Port Arthur Branch No. 5 Royal Canadian Legion, said the limitations left them with little or no choice if a ceremony was still to be held.
> 
> “By the time we get the people who are required to deal with the wreaths and deal with the ceremony, there’s no room left for the colour party, the wreath layers and such,” Newman said on Thursday, standing in front of the cenotaph at Waverley Park.
> 
> “We’re not having any sort of a parade. The military units, unfortunately, have been cut out all together. They will be conducting their own services within their own buildings.”
> 
> The public is being discouraged from attending all three ceremonies ...


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Very likley that tomorrows announcement in BC will squash even the limited event planned in North Vancouver.


----------



## ModlrMike

We produced a 45 minute video edition of our Remembrance ceremony. It's been released to DGPA, and 17 Wing will be linking to it. In addition, we've released a copy to the local media with the provision that it can't go live until the appropriate time should they choose to air it. We expect national media involvement as well. 

On the day, we will have a guard of 5, a bugler, the CO and Cox'n in attendance at the unit for 8 slow bells at 11 AM.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Like a Phoenix, once a year, this thread rises from it ashes. If it really was a cause for concern, this thread would be active 12 months of the year with a call for political action. Just like people only Remember, once a year.


----------



## tomahawk6

Arbor Memorial video.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=remembrance+day+video&&view=detail&mid=4B3D110C8E984DF4DFE44B3D110C8E984DF4DFE4&&FORM=VDRVSR


----------



## Colin Parkinson

My daughter doing us proud, (also dad showing off daughter)  8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfG5HJWJ8wg


----------



## Lance Wiebe

Colin P said:
			
		

> My daughter doing us proud, (also dad showing off daughter)  8)
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfG5HJWJ8wg



Very well done! I certainly don't blame you one bit for showing off your daughter.


----------



## mariomike

Colin P said:
			
		

> My daughter doing us proud, (also dad showing off daughter)  8)
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfG5HJWJ8wg



That was wonderful!


----------



## Weinie

Colin P said:
			
		

> My daughter doing us proud, (also dad showing off daughter)  8)
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfG5HJWJ8wg



Colin,

That was awesome. Congrats to her for her poise and to you for raising and mentoring such an outstanding, aware young lady. BZ.


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## Navy_Pete

This year is an outlier, but normally it's cold and crappy on Remembrance day. With the kids being at school, they actually do a local ceremony that they participate in, and is suitable for their comprehension level. It's also inside, so they can pay attention and appreciate it. That's a lot harder to do when they are little, can't see anything, and can't hear most of the ceremony, while being cold and bored.

Most places here in Ottawa open late/close for the ceremony, so no one typically has a hard time getting to the ceremony. Turnout is really high, with lots of young people there, so don't think we need a holiday to increase participation, and will probably do the opposite.

Also, think we do a reasonably good job remembering it's not a celebration of war; it's about people dying or being wounded/damaged on both sides, and usually for stupid reasons resulting from pointless power grabs and failures of diplomacy. Walking through the German WWI graves and seeing a bunch of dead 18-21 year olds was just as bad as walking through the same allied graves for me. That's not something we should have a holiday for IMHO.


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## FSTO

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> This year is an outlier, but normally it's cold and crappy on Remembrance day. With the kids being at school, they actually do a local ceremony that they participate in, and is suitable for their comprehension level. It's also inside, so they can pay attention and appreciate it. That's a lot harder to do when they are little, can't see anything, and can't hear most of the ceremony, while being cold and bored.
> 
> Most places here in Ottawa open late/close for the ceremony, so no one typically has a hard time getting to the ceremony. Turnout is really high, with lots of young people there, so don't think we need a holiday to increase participation, and will probably do the opposite.
> 
> Also, think we do a reasonably good job remembering it's not a celebration of war; it's about people dying or being wounded/damaged on both sides, and usually for stupid reasons resulting from pointless power grabs and failures of diplomacy. Walking through the German WWI graves and seeing a bunch of dead 18-21 year olds was just as bad as walking through the same allied graves for me. That's not something we should have a holiday for IMHO.



Agree 100%. If we make it a holiday, next thing you'll see is "GET YOUR REMEMBRANCE DAY DOOR CRASHERS HERE!!!"
No bloody way, its a moment in time to reflect on the futility of war and remember the ones who served and weren't able to come home be it from the battlefield or from the training field.


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## Gunnar

I remember working at a bank years ago, and being asked by someone in November:  "So, what did you do on the long weekend?"  I said, "What long weekend?"  They said, "we just had the day off."  I said, "oh, that.  I was at the cenotaph".

I do miss working at the bank in November tho....got a chance to round-robin all the Remembrance Day ceremonies in the GTA.  Some solemn, some with music, some with flybys in the missing man formation.  Some perfunctory performances by politicians who don't get it.  But I went every year.  I had the day off for a reason.


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## mariomike

I find this interactive map interesting and informative, 

Mapping Canada’s war dead, house by house
https://globalnews.ca/news/3852998/canada-poppy-map/


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## garb811

FSTO said:
			
		

> Agree 100%. If we make it a holiday, next thing you'll see is "GET YOUR REMEMBRANCE DAY DOOR CRASHERS HERE!!!"
> No bloody way, its a moment in time to reflect on the futility of war and remember the ones who served and weren't able to come home be it from the battlefield or from the training field.


I'm pretty sure if that was going to be an issue,  you'd be seeing that happening already. The only places where Nov 11th isn't a provincial holiday are ON and PQ. Although is isn't a full holiday in MB, most businesses must be closed from 0900 hrs - 1300 hrs.


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## mariomike

Perhaps General Eisenhower said it best, “The American soldier might not have known what he was fighting for, but after seeing the concentration camps, he knew what he was fighting against.”


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## kratz

Today's ceremony in Lower Sackville, NS was much smaller and proceed much quicker than traditionally. 

About 200 people total. Everyone had masks and were well spaced out. I found many of the changes welcome, but odd and a bit jarring from normal.

We were requested to be be there to provide first aid, if needed. 
Otherwise the RCL, media ect effectively conveyed the message to stay home and watch virtually. 

The branch is closed after the service, to ensure COVID restrictions are followed.


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## dangerboy

I did like that for the national service in Ottawa they pre-laid the majority of wreaths before the parade. That is a tradition we should continue there is no reason for Bob's convenience store and local 123 to be laying wreaths while there are people on parade.


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## dapaterson

dangerboy said:
			
		

> I did like that for the national service in Ottawa they pre-laid the majority of wreaths before the parade. That is a tradition we should continue there is no reason for Bob's convenience store and local 123 to be laying wreaths while there are people on parade.



Local 123, the Ladies Auxiliary for 123, the Bingo club for 123, the 60 plus Go Getters club for 123...


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## PMedMoe

dangerboy said:
			
		

> I did like that for the national service in Ottawa they pre-laid the majority of wreaths before the parade. That is a tradition we should continue there is no reason for Bob's convenience store and local 123 to be laying wreaths while there are people on parade.



Agreed!


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## Weinie

To our fallen R.I.P.

To the vets and serving members on here


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## PPCLI Guy

:ditto:
 :cdnsalute:


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## observor 69

My small suburban town west of Toronto. Covid change, ceremony at the Cenotaph was canceled to avoid a crowd? Those in the know attended a small service held at the local Legion parking lot with the town Mayor, our town councilor, and local ex-MP attending.
The 40 or so of us who are not members of the Legion and unaware of the change stood around at the Cenotaph. At 1100 hrs we heard the Last Post from the Legion and responded appropriately.

That is all!


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## The Bread Guy

Missed what little ceremony there was because of urgent work, but did deposit my poppy at a small memorial for three locals killed in Afghanistan (attached photo credit:  Leith Dunnick, tbnewswatch.com).  I went after lunch, and noticed people discretely coming, paying their respects and leaving one at a time.

#WeWillRemember, even if it's not in big groups, or at cenotaphs ...


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## lenaitch

dangerboy said:
			
		

> I did like that for the national service in Ottawa they pre-laid the majority of wreaths before the parade. That is a tradition we should continue there is no reason for Bob's convenience store and local 123 to be laying wreaths while there are people on parade.



Agree.  Normally the weather can be pretty scuzzy and I've stood on parade looking at the old vets obviously chilled through while the parade of 'tier two' wreaths are laid.  The sentiment and display of respect is appreciated but there must be a better way.  On the other hand, those folks and groups might not attend if they know they can mail it in.

*****

Over the past couple of days, the missus painted poppies on 75 small rocks found around the area, recognizing the end of WWII.  Last night at dusk we went around the neighbourhood placing them on random driveways.  One of the neighbours runs an email group list and sent out a message on our anonymous behalf.  Some positive responses but that wasn't the point.

As an aside, we saw two Foxes and a Barred Owl, all quite unperturbed by our presence.


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