# NEW US Army Combat Uniform (ACU) debuts monday



## MAJOR_Baker

New US ACU

 http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-3000305.php


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## stukirkpatrick

I was wondering when the US army was going to follow the Marines with digital patterns.  I'm assuming that when the article says it will replace both BDUs and Desert Camoflague that there will be two different designs, not one amazing all-terrain version?

Does ARMPAT sound too much like armpit?   ;D


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## D-n-A

haha

The uniform is probably going to look a lot like the USMC MARPAT uniforms, only a some different colours, so something in between CADPAT and MARPAT.


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## Smoothbore

Those "ARMPIT" uniforms don't look too bad. Is it destined to replace the Woodland camo scheme?


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## Ex-Dragoon

Will they be issuing this to the personnel deployed or about to be deployed first?


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## Smoothbore

Wow, that new uniform looks great, very futuristic, reminds me of the army from Starship Troopers, neat. It well suits the most elite and professional armed service of the  world (but no more screw-ups like Abu-Gharib!).


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## mattoigta

Hi-Res





Hi-Res





Hi-Res





Hi-Res

I think it's nuts to use this scheme as an across-the-board pattern if in real life it looks the same as it does in these pics.


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## jrhume

I think what looks bad to me is the old style patches.  Something has to be done about those.  I'm certain the name patches and qualification badges will be dealt with quickly.  Unit patches will probably take some time.

As a start, the background on patches ought to match the uniform -- I don't mean the patch material should be camo, but it ought to match the dominant color in the uniform material.  Name patch, US Army patch and qualification badges could easily be smaller.  They stand out well -- better than they do against existing uniforms, IMHO.

  They sure look different than my old jungle fatigues.


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## willy

When the new uniforms first started hitting the CF, there were all kinds of guys who put the old style name tags on them.  I agree, it was about the ugliest thing I've ever seen, and it didn't look right at all.  I'm sure that as happened with us, there will be proper name tags and the like put into service soon.

S_Baker, why do you guys put jump wings, Ranger tabs, etc on your combat uniforms?


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## mattoigta

S_Baker said:
			
		

> Scarlino,
> 
> I am not trying to bust your chops, but why did you say you think it is nuts?   I know several Officers that work in PEO soldier, there was exhaustive scientific testing.   The colors, pattern, and design were the best all around system and the right uniform at the right time for the US Army.   Unless you have some type of empirical evidence   I am guessing your response is based on personal preference?   I would love to hear why so I can add you comments to the ones I have collected and am going to forward to PEO soldier.




I was just commenting on how it looks in the pictures, and that's what i said. In the pictures it seems as if it sticks out like a sore thumb to say the least! I know that there has obviously been extensive R&D, but damn.. it doesn't look like it'll blend in woodland to me at all. I've seen other pictures wearing the woodland webbing/vests and all it does is contrast them even more.. how long til all the gear gets the pattern printed on them? And why not just develop an all around pattern for all branches and services - it something works better, why not give it to everyone? I sure hope inter-service pride isnt getting in the way of effectiveness.


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## Jarnhamar

I'm not a big fan of all those patches. I can see those patches getting caught on everything, just the way our Canadian flags get caught on out Tacvest when we try to put it on and take it off.

Not sure if i like the collar. Looks pretty neat (makes me thing German for some reason?)  and it would be great in cold/wet weather but in the summer when I'm hot thats  one of the best ways to ventilate, loosen up your collar and air out. Also when you don't have time to put your used mags away throwing them them the top of your shirt (more so with the old Canadian webbing) was a great place to get rid of them in the short term.


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## Smoothbore

The patches should be replaced...
The mandarin style collar can be folded down, so don't worry about overheating.


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## jrhume

Scarlino,

The new ACU and the existings 'combat' uniform is also an everyday uniform.  For day-to-day use, the patches are worn.  Once in combat most of the decorative garbage goes away.  Based on pics of soldiers in Iraq and my own experience in Vietnam, the closer one gets to the action, the less 'stuff' is on the uniform.  Infantrymen in Vietnam mostly wore uniforms with the unit patch, if that, when in the field.  Infantry officers usually retained a stitched rank badge on one collar and crossed rifles on the other and little else.  Within the unit, everyone knows who is who.


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## Jungle

> Black is no longer useful on the uniform because it is not a color found in woodland areas, Myhre said. The current colors on the ACU are green and sandy brown. The pattern is not a 100-percent solution in every environment, Mhyre said, but a good solution across the board.


Interesting concept... Seems like they came up with a compromise solution, the pattern will probably be acceptable everywhere, but never highly effective. The uniforms will likely turn to a light grey after a year of use.
Black is created by shadows in woodland areas, and I believe it is important to have it in a pattern. The human eye is designed in such a way that it easily detects the movement of light colours, so there are chances this pattern will give troops away more easily when on the move.


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## Blindspot

Just a question,

Will velcro not make a substantial amount of noise?


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## Smoothbore

S_Baker said:
			
		

> This is the next-next generation uniform for Combat soldiers, I have seen a variety of camo colors, but the functionality of the uniform will be similar to this protoype.....
> 
> http://www.dod.gov/photos/Jun2002/020523-D-9880W-068.html



That looks like the german Flecktarn, it isn't digital?


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## mattoigta

Here's a better- looking picture of it, looks darker but still really gray.





edit - just found a cool video with a Col. explaining the changes
http://www.ngb.army.mil/news/2004/06/newacu.wmv


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## Smoothbore

Why does it look tan/green in this picture and grey/blue in the previous?


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## tabernac

Didn't you hear? It tries to blend with the surroundings... Major Baker tell your PEO soldiers that they did an excellent job. They deserve their annual bonus (if such a thing applies to them).


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## Michael Dorosh

Blindspot said:
			
		

> Just a question,
> 
> Will velcro not make a substantial amount of noise?



Will you really be going in and out of your pockets while stalking enemy soldiers in the middle of the night, bayonet betwixt your teeth?


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## tabernac

> Will you really be going in and out of your pockets while stalking enemy soldiers in the middle of the night, bayonet betwixt your teeth?



If they want their energy bars ;D. I can just see it now...


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## Blindspot

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Blindspot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just a question,
> 
> Will velcro not make a substantial amount of noise?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Will you really be going in and out of your pockets while stalking enemy soldiers in the middle of the night, bayonet betwixt your teeth?
Click to expand...


Would YOU really want to take the chance of your shirt getting caught on something while stalking (or hiding from) the enemy when from your general direction comes a RRRRRRRIP?


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## Yes Man

Are there any pics of someone blending into the background?  There seem to be tons of pics like that for cadpat/marpat.  From everything I have seen so far it looks like it really sticks out, but it might just be the pics I have looked at.


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## Jarnhamar

I'd like to see it blending in with the back round. It looks a little too light to me.  I think it would be better to have some black in it, seems to me the acu might stick out at night.


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## Military Brat

Man, I can't see this pattern blending in either the desert or the forest. Sand is brown and forests are green. This uniform is mainly grey..

But what do I know? The US Army did all the scientific testing and experiments, and they know what works and what doesn't. So I'm guessing it works if they are implementing it..

 :warstory:


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## jrhume

Haaaahaaaahaaa!  <snort>  <snicker> 'The US Army did all the scientific testing . . .'

The surest way to screw something us is to have it designed by a COMMITTEE within a MILITARY organization.  

That being said, they did involve real soldiers in the process, so it might be better than it appears.  I think it's awful light.

Let's wait and see.


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## Enzo

So it's better camouflage that you're after eh? Try this:

http://projects.star.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp:/projects/MEDIA/xv/oc.html


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## Kirkhill

Is it just me or from a distance does it look like the colour of our old combats.  After they were washed a few times they ended up grey-green.b


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## Jarnhamar

> That being said, they did involve real soldiers in the process



Hopefully the soldiers comments and opinions were not disregarded by the boys up stairs who know better


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## dotap

This was from an article I read somewhere...

"The color scheme in the ACU capitalizes on the environments that we operate in," Myhre said. "The current colors on the ACU are green-woodland, grey-urban environments and sand brown-desert. The pattern is not a 100-percent solution in every environment, but a good solution across the board." 

I think they just didn't explain their plan very well (with regards to the one pattern).   I know a lot of people are under the impression that this is one acu for all environments (woodland, desert, urban).   Based on this statement, I think there is one _pattern_ on the acu (being the digital pattern), but that there are three color schemes.   One for each environment.   I think the confusion is caused by the fact that they keep saying that it will replace the desert and woodland bdu with one pattern.   If you look at those two sets, the pattern itself is different, it is not just different colors in the same pattern.   The new ACU will be the exact same pattern, simply with different color schemes.

I also read a comment on another message forum from a guy who know a guy   that works in the peo department that said this was the case.


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## CPT_D

The ACU "does away with requirements to procure uniforms based on specific environments - the ACU is worldwide deployable," according to this PDF file:        https://peosoldier.army.mil/images/ACU_Factsheet.pdf

This would lead me to believe that there is only one ACU uniform, that will replace having seperate woodland uniforms, desert uniforms, urban uniforms, etc.   Of course, they will probably still make temperate and regular weather versions.


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## chrisf

I have to say... the uniform looks ridiculous with the old style of patches, but clearly, as stated by others, this is somthing that can be remedied easy enough.

As to the functionality, I can't see this being functional as camoflauge, I really can't... I'm sure it went through plenty of testing, but I still just can't wrap my head around this being functional... that being said, I'll reserve judgement until the uniform sees actual service.


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## b.scheller

are the patches suppose to be sewn on in such a crappy manner. who ever sew on those things, didnt even take the time to do a good job. the guys name tape looks like it was only sewn on in the middle and the sides have no thread to hold them back? anyway the uniform is UGLY. the cadpad looks much better.  :warstory:


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## Marine

The ACU is just a another attempt to turn the Army into the Marines.


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## Infanteer

Marine said:
			
		

> The ACU is just a another attempt to turn the Army into the Marines.



Someone has got to be behind the times.... ;D


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## Goober

All your answer are belong to this FAQ

https://peosoldier.army.mil/default.asp?section=faqs


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## SFontaine

Marine said:
			
		

> The ACU is just a another attempt to turn the Army into the Marines.



How? They adapted a digital pattern? I don't see the Army replying to small arms fire with tactical nukes yet. The Marine Corps seems good enough at doing that so far.

Marine Corps response to one guy with an AK:
 :mg:  
 :cam:  
 :rocket:  
 :akimbo:
   :gunner:  
 :flame:

And the Army response:
 :sniper:


Any pictures of the ACU in action? I wanna see how it blends into the various enviroments.


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## Troopasaurus

https://peosoldier.army.mil/photos/ACU2_high.jpg

vs

http://www.army.gc.ca/Chief_Land_Staff/Clothe_the_soldier/hab/Photo_e.asp?Ref=722&Photo=9004

I know which one i would pick


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## bossi

Yup - I keep hearing Jungle's comments ringing in my ears
(i.e. to the effect that black is included ... to simulate shadows ...)

So, like, I'm kinda thinkin' ... there's no black on the new US Army cam pattern ...
(which makes me chuckle again, thinking of flourescent lights if one mistakenly emphasizes "Office Soldier" in the name PEO "Project Executive Office Soldier ...")

Also - it sure makes a difference when the gear is the same cam pattern as the uniform ...
http://www.army.gc.ca/Chief_Land_Staff/Clothe_the_soldier/hab/7/731_e.asp
The Full Monty ...except for the glare off the ballistic shades ... sigh ...


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## Military Brat

SFontaine said:
			
		

> Marine said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The ACU is just a another attempt to turn the Army into the Marines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How? They adapted a digital pattern? I don't see the Army replying to small arms fire with tactical nukes yet. The Marine Corps seems good enough at doing that so far.
> 
> Marine Corps response to one guy with an AK:
> :mg:
> :cam:
> :rocket:
> :akimbo:
> :gunner:
> :flame:
> 
> And the Army response:
> :sniper:
Click to expand...


Life is expensive, ammo is cheap.


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## Infanteer

Thanks for your uneducated opinion on the US Military, Fontaine.  Keep the comments to yourself unless you have reasonable proof to back them up.


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## SFontaine

I apologize, Infanteer. I have nothing but the utmost respect for the USMC, it's just that from what I've observed seeing interviews with Marine combat veterans and seeing various videos out of Iraq, the Corps seems to respond with absolutely everything they have when returning fire, no matter how little fire they receive. A video that immediately comes to mind is one outside a university in Baghdad where a group of Marines come under fire from a knocked out AA position and they open up with their 249s, 203s and LAWs on the suspected enemy position. Most of what I see from the Army involves quick short bursts of accurate controlled fire.

I spoke to a friend of mine who went off for Army Basic yesterday (Yes I know, no expert) and asked him why he isn't joining the Marine Corps, as he originally planned, and he told me it's because during, and ever since, Vietnam the Marines devolved into firing off thousands of rounds of ammo into the suspected enemy position when they come under fire and leaving it at that, whereas the Army reviews the threat and repleis with an appropriate amount of fire.

Again, I have nothing but respect for the USMC but I believe that a times they're heavy handed when responding to threats and I also accept that I could be wrong, as I'm not a combat veteran and don't know the specifics of the situations cited. Correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Infanteer

I can tell you that your presumtion is bullshit and I'd be happy to direct you to a few Marines if you need further proof.


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## CDNBlackhawk

IMO I think their new uniforms look rediculous and cant see it being very effective in the fields either, it doesnt look tan,geen and greay as they suggested, it looks just light grey.


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## NavyGrunt

We havent seen operational photos. How can you say they "stupid"??? You think they are going to send their troops looking like grey blobs in the woods? Wait to see it in action before we poopoo. I dont think they'd make that kind of mistake. They do dumb things in R and D but come on.


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## Jarnhamar

"Again, I have nothing but respect for the USMC but I believe that a times they're heavy handed when responding to threats and I also accept that I could be wrong, as I'm not a combat veteran and don't know the specifics of the situations cited. Correct me if I'm wrong."


It's probably pretty easy to say a marine is using too much firepower when your sitting at home watching videos on the internet compared to watching your best friends getting shot up and killed by someone hiding inside a building. Or not knowing if it's one guy shooting at you or 50 of them waiting with RPGs.


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## NavyGrunt

Ghost778 said:
			
		

> It's probably pretty easy to say a marine is using too much firepower when your sitting at home watching videos on the internet compared to watching your best friends getting shot up and killed by someone hiding inside a building. Or not knowing if it's one guy shooting at you or 50 of them waiting with RPGs.



And this really is the bottom line.


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## SFontaine

RopeTech said:
			
		

> Ghost778 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's probably pretty easy to say a marine is using too much firepower when your sitting at home watching videos on the internet compared to watching your best friends getting shot up and killed by someone hiding inside a building. Or not knowing if it's one guy shooting at you or 50 of them waiting with RPGs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this really is the bottom line.
Click to expand...


Just like I said. Anyway let's end this little "debate". My comment was stupid, and as such apologize for it.


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## Kirkhill

Re peosoldier photo

"O look mummy, a target!!!" :blotto:


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## SFontaine

http://www.militarymorons.com/misc/misc.html#acu


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## qjdb

Well, that link from military morons sure shows that, on the surfaces that he picked, at least, that the ACU sure does stand out, doesn't it?

To me, it looks like they designed it for the desert over in the middle east, and on the 'desert photo', it seems to work OK, but in the woodland photos, it sticks out like a sore thumb. ???

The picture that has all three samples draped in the tree, they all have the same amount of shade, and the ACU stands out like a white surrender flag.  PROBABLY NOT what they were trying to achieve.  Heck, in that picture the MARPAT (Desert) even blends better than the Woodland, and totally better than the ACU.

Now, the cut of the uniform, THAT I like.  It looks very crisp and professional, and the extra pockets for elbow and knee padding are a great idea, as are the calf pockets.  It always seems like I am running out of pockets to put $hit. ;D

Oh well, like many others have said, I hope that it works out better than we here think it will, or it is going to be one expensive experiment.  I guess those guys from Stryker, etc, know what they are doing.


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## Spr.Earl

Here's some photo's of it.
The coller also can been worn in the normal position along with a closed neck as seen.(I like this)
On the ankle's is a pocket for ammo when kneeling (I like that also)
The shoulder's and all insignia are attached by velcro aslo the armpit's are baggy to allow more movement.
Plus the shirt has a two way zipper.


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## Infanteer

Earl, those pictures are on the first page man.... 8)


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## Spr.Earl

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Earl, those pictures are on the first page man.... 8)


DOH! Sorry Infan. C.R.S (Can't remeber Sh*t. )again  ;D
No, every one's going on about it I thought I just post the photo's to end the argument. 
Thank's for the reminder.


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## Hawaii Mike

I know one thing about this new uniform:  every fat-assed REMF supply clerk, 1st Sgt, Pentagon wienie and armchair commando will have a full complement before do the grunts in the field.  Seems in this case the Army is unwilling (again) to admit the Marines have the better idea; and unable to eat crow and ask the Marines for the rights to the pattern.


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## Infanteer

> I know one thing about this new uniform:  every fat-assed REMF supply clerk, 1st Sgt, Pentagon wienie and armchair commando will have a full complement before do the grunts in the field.



Gee, what does that remind everybody in CADPAT of?



> Seems in this case the Army is unwilling (again) to admit the Marines have the better idea; and unable to eat crow and ask the Marines for the rights to the pattern.



I wondered about that as well; I always figured the two MARPAT patterns where good enough (Although I thought one was a little two orangy).  If that funny tiger-stripe Air Force Pattern I seen was true, then I see interservice rivalry is still alive and strong for you guys.


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## Scott

What are these uniform materials made of? CADPAT and the new US uniforms? I'm curious to know if anyone is wearing NOMEX or PBI in their uniforms. 

In the Oilfield (Canadian side at least) fire resistant material is law. The company I work for spent $600/each on PBI Ripstop coveralls for us. Best workwear I have ever worn. Comfortable, flash, heat and char resistant and you can only tear a quarter inch of material before the integrated stitching stops the rip. I know that 600 bucks is a very big stretch for one article of clothing for a soldier, just curious if anyone has any info on soldiers already wearing FR materials....Possibly SARTECHS, Assaulters, Aircrews? 

Cheers


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## CDNBlackhawk

Major Baker

I remember reading or hearing that the USARMY Uniforms (BDU's) cost around 60.00 dollars US and the new ACU are going to be about 20-30 dollars more then the BDU's.  any truth to this that you know of?


Thanks


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## Goober

"At $88 per uniform, about $30 more than the BDU, Soldiers will eventually reap gains in money and time by not having to take uniforms to the cleaners or shine boots."

from:

http://www4.army.mil/ocpa/read.php?story_id_key=6045


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## qjdb

Just so you know, S_Baker, I was in no way trying to disparage the new USArmy Camo Pattern, just, more than anything, sort of writing out my observations, based on Military Morons' page, more to get them straight in my own head, more than anything else.

I hope that I get a chance to see them, sooner, rather than later.   I guess that knockoffs may start appearing in the Surplus shops and stuff, so may get a chance to see what they 'sort-of' look like   And, I totally love the cut, with all the extra pockets, etc.  I am a pocket junkie, and love to utilize them all.  Drives my wife nuts, the majority of my civvi pants are covered in cargo pockets.

I have only been on this board since 2 July, but already am totally impressed with how knowledgable (or at least the impression of it  ) a large majority of the people here are.

And, ever since I got my Relish Combats (CADPAT), I have become MUCH more aware of how many different patterns are out there.   Before, I just had heard of USArmy Woodland, British DPM, and Olive Green / Monotone patterns, and just assumed that most countries used these, or versions thereof.     Wow, have my eyes been opened.   Sometimes, I wish that they weren't opened (Belgian Camo looks like a Hawaiian shirt, in my not so professional opinion) 

Have a good one.


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## bossi

Hawaii Mike said:
			
		

> I know one thing about this new uniform:  every fat-assed REMF supply clerk, 1st Sgt, Pentagon wienie and armchair commando will have a full complement before do the grunts in the field.



Too true ... especially when some 2Lt A/Trg O with the RCACC even has CADPAT ...


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## Jarnhamar

I was going to mentiont hat.... How are cadets getting cadpat uniforms before soldiers?


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## qjdb

OK, you guys, just so you ARE aware:

1) I am NOT a cadet.
2) I am a fully commissioned officer in the Canadian Reserves.   I may not be operational, but I still am in the army.  The cadets are the civilians, not me.  I have to answer to the same rules as you, and can get a nice little holiday in Club Ed if I screw up.
3) I did NOT beg, steal or borrow the CADPAT uniform.
4) It was ISSUED to me.
5)   Out here, everyone that I have seen, except people on BMQ, have the CADPAT.

For goodness sake, it's not like I asked for it    It was given to me.   How am I supposed to influence who gets it first?   Geesh.   "Uh no thanks, I won't take that regulation piece of kit that you are going to issue me, because there is some guy out in Ontario whose Supply technician or whatever has decided that he is going to use up all of those OD combats before he gives out the CADPAT"

As far as the 'how are they getting it before soldiers?' comment goes, last I checked, the term 'soldier' applied to everyone in the Army, not just those of you who are out in the far ends of the earth getting shot at.   Don't get me wrong, I have total respect for all of you in the Reg Force and the Reserves who are getting shot at, etc, and I do not, by any stretch of the imagination, think that I have the same level of training to deal with that.   I know what my limitations are, and I never try to pass myself off as anything but what I am.

I am a CIC Officer, and very proud of that!   I am good at what I do (or at least I like to think so), but I am by no means an expert.   Would YOU like to come and teach these hormonal 12-19 year-olds?   Go check out / volunteer at your local Cadets, and when you see what kind of stuff we have to put up with, then come back to me, and tell me that I don't deserve to wear the Uniform of my Country, which I am proud to serve, in whatever capacity I may.

I realize that this has gotten a bit off topic, so if anyone wants to continue this discussion offlist, please send me a private message, I would appreciate it.


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## Jarnhamar

Mr Brown; Just out of curiosity how long is the course to become a fully commissioned officer in the Canadian Reserves/ CIC officer?

I don't think anyone us directly attacking you for getting issued cadpat. Im sure you have as much pull over the issue as a private or corporal does. Personally i'm calling into question the wisdom behind issuing a CIC officer who teaches cadets cadpat over regular force and reserve personal who are operational.  I know everyone has to get it sooner or later, i'd just like to see it go to certain people first.


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## Hawaii Mike

As far as fire-retardant materials go for combat uniforms, I would hazard a guess that the same properties of the material that keep flame and heat away from flesh also prevent heat from leaving the body.  When I've worn nomex flight suits, I've found them to be 100% comfortable so long as I stayed flat on my ass in my rack in an air-conditioned berthing space.  I would imagine that aviators and tankers sweat loads while working.  An infantryman in the desert would quickly drop from dehydration were he to wear a nomex uniform, I would imagine.

I also might hasten to add that materiel and equipment issue has improved a lot since the 1980's, when I was an active duty Marine.  Senior leadership seems to be more on the ball.  I would guess that the grunts will get first issue of the new army uniform.  Nice pocket setup, by the way. MARPAT sleeve pockets are maybe good for a pack of smokes; that's about it.  

This all came down because guys were copying SEALs and SF guys who tucked in their shirttails, having removed the lower pockets and upper pockets.  The upper pockets went on the sleeves to hold important first-line gear, and the waist pockets went on a slant on the chest, for the same reason.  They wanted to tuck in because when wearing second-line gear, pistols, and/or abseiling kit, etc., the tails did nothing but get in the way.  Also, we felt a lot more comfortable with everything nice and tightly tucked in.  

My memories may be dated, but I do recall seeing admin and HQ guys with clean shiny kit (ca. 1987-88, goretex was a distant dream for those of us in the rifle companies and artillery batteries; everybody on the MAU/MEU and PHIBRON staff had it, though) in greater proportions than their relative missions and operational need might suggest.  I don't think anybody will argue that HQ types always seem to get more citations, better gear and better living conditions.  It's all a matter of being closest to the supply train, as well as to the flagpole.


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## Scott

Hawaii Mike, I agree that Nomex can be your worst enemy in certain situations ie. extreme air temps or oxygen enriched environments. But there are many other FR materials that can be used that do their best to get heat away from the body. The thing is, anytime you add a layer of clothing to your body not only have you insulated it more, causing body temperature to rise, but you give it that many more layers on top to absorb the heat and these layers take longer to let the heat dissipate.

About five or six years ago a Winnipeg Firefighter had to jump from the second story of a house as a fireball was chasing him (the condition he was in is known as flashover and a firefighters life expectancy in one is about three seconds) he had several injuries from the fall (Imagine jumping wearing 25 pounds of fire gear and the 15 pounds of breathing apparatus) When they got him to the hospital they realized that they had far graver issues. He had circumferential burns on his forearms. The degree of severity of these burns was cutting off circulation to the hands and he very nearly lost them. He was in recovery and physio for over 8 months.

The reason he received these circumferential burns was a phenomenon known as "heat sink". His burns were completely circumferential and very uniform, it was as if a line had been drawn on his skin where the burns start and stop. Other firemen quickly figured out that these burns were in the same relative area as his reflective striping would have been when he was wearing his jacket. Whoa. It was later found that this reflective striping has high heat tolerance, so it doesn't melt off of your clothing. Being that it is very resistant it also means that it traps heat, everything does, the higher heat resistance an article of clothing has the longer it will take for heat to dissipate from that article of clothing. In this poor man's case, the striping had a heat resistance of just a bit higher than the rest of the clothing and therefore he was burned only in those places.

We (firefighters) have long known that this can happen but never attributed it to the striping, just the heat in the atmosphere being almost too much for the gear. When you go into the flashover simulator (They create flashover but you and your buddies are at a level about 3 feet lower than the flashover, that equals a safe spot) they say very clearly that you are not to slap a buddy on the back or grab him by the arm as you will compress the clothing over that area and burn your mate.

Now, in the oilfield we have the potential to be exposed to heat sink alot and when it occurs it is very rapid. When fighting a rig fire or "blowout" we often wear coveralls, that's it. We wear the PBI Black Gold Flightsuits with ripstop stitching. The less layers of clothing you are wearing the less likely you are to experience heat sink is the theory. Also, wearing a full fire suit "bunker gear" would cause us to rapidly dehydrate and we would literally steam to death.

My original point was that there have been many leaps and bounds made since NOMEX, you just have to choose which material is right for you. I do forest firefighting in my PBI's (which are black) and I feel better than wearing older generations of the same material even though the new stuff is about twice as thick. The only time it has ever bothered me is when it is humid and I think clothing in general will bother you when it is humid.

Cheers


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## Jungle

Here is an interesting pic I received from a friend. It seems more "green" on this one than the other pics I've seen.


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## Jungle

Hmm... my friend specifically said it is the new ACU, and the guy wearing it wears an 82nd AB Div patch. I don't think there is any black in that pattern, it is likely created by shadows.
I thought the new USAF uniform was in tiger stripes ?


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## Michael Dorosh

Jungle said:
			
		

> Hmm... my friend specifically said it is the new ACU, and the guy wearing it wears an 82nd AB Div patch. I don't think there is any black in that pattern, it is likely created by shadows.
> I thought the new USAF uniform was in tiger stripes ?



Divisional shoulder sleeve insignia worn on the right hand side indicate former combat service, not current unit.  Do Air Force personnel transferred from the Army continue to wear former unit patches in this manner?


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## Jungle

Good question, I searched the USAF site and didn't find anything on combat patches.
Chances are, if the USAF is like our Air Force, they have NO dress regs...


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## Michael Dorosh

Jungle said:
			
		

> Good question, I searched the USAF site and didn't find anything on combat patches.
> Chances are, if the USAF is like our Air Force, they have NO dress regs...



Might explain the lack of a hat too....


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## D-n-A

The USAF tiger stripe is blue.


And for USAF pers wearing US Army Divisional insignia, maybe they were attached to that unit during a tour.
Awhile ago I saw a photo of a USAF S/Sgt wearing 101st insignia on her right sleeve, picture was taken in Afghanistan.


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## Michael Dorosh

Combat_Cook said:
			
		

> And for USAF pers wearing US Army Divisional insignia, maybe they were attached to that unit during a tour.
> Awhile ago I saw a photo of a USAF S/Sgt wearing 101st insignia on her right sleeve, picture was taken in Afghanistan.



That answers the question! Thanks CC.


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## soldiers301

Jungle, the uniform ont the photo you post IS Tiger Stripe - Not the new ACU.


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## pegged

Here are a couple pics I saw. Now I'm really confused as to what they're using. The bluish one, or this? They're both from the same site.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/images/acu-pic01.jpg

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/images/acu-pic03.jpg

Here's the site: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/acu.htm


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## D-n-A

OShea, the pics you posted are of the new US Army ACU. The blue tiger stripe uniforms are for the US Air Force(garrison uniform). I'm not sure if the USAF has actually started to issue out the blue tigerstripe uniforms or not though.


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## pegged

I know I posted the new ACU. It seems to me though that people are confused about what color they are using for the new ACU.


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## Garbageman

Some pers. at Wright-Patterson AFB were wearing the tiger stripe when I was there in May.  I gather this is a tial run then?


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## JokerFMJ

I know this is kind of an old topic but I figured i'd just say this...  Those blue tiger stripes _were_ going to be the new Air Force Uniforms (they were in a test face when ya'll saw them, and to some extent still are in a test phase).  However, they made modifications and are now testing a new uniform (or will be very shortly) that is extremely similar to the Army's ACU.  Same color, pixelated, but still tiger striped.  Haven't seen a picture yet, just going from what I read in the AF Times.


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## Storm

JokerFMJ said:
			
		

> I know this is kind of an old topic but I figured i'd just say this...   Those blue tiger stripes _were_ going to be the new Air Force Uniforms (they were in a test face when ya'll saw them, and to some extent still are in a test phase).   However, they made modifications and are now testing a new uniform (or will be very shortly) that is extremely similar to the Army's ACU.   Same color, pixelated, but still tiger striped.   Haven't seen a picture yet, just going from what I read in the AF Times.



Pixelated tiger stripe? That should be interesting to see. I wonder if the tiger stripe in pixels would add to the effectiveness of camouflage over regular pixels (not that it really matters for the air force).


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## bossi

Here are some pix of the USN's prototypes:
http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=76950&ran=222453


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## Blindspot

Found this link:

http://peosoldier.army.mil/images/PEOSoldier2004booklet.pdf

Includes weapons projects; though I've heard something to the effect that the US has scraped the XM8 project because they don't want core weapons manufacture to be in foreign hands which can put a stop to production for political reasons.


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## HollywoodHitman

I have to say IMHO the US Army replacement BDU's look Uber-Gay. Maybe the idea is that they subdue the enemy with laughter rather than fire and maneouver.

Sorry guys, just can't wrap my mind around Starship Troopers. Whats with the Mandarin collar? 

 ;D :dontpanic:


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## bossi

HollywoodHitman said:
			
		

> Sorry guys, just can't wrap my mind around Starship Troopers. Whats with the Mandarin collar?



Sorry, but I kinda like the idea of pockets on the arms/biceps that you can reach even when you're wearing body armour, and the collar isn't anything new - our old cbt jackets had a button so the corduroy collar could be turned up for warmth (while at the same time covering up/concealing the natural target at the bottom of the throat ...)


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## HollywoodHitman

Pockets on the arms and collars are a great idea. Not sure why we havent adopted them as I know a few guys who have 'field shirts' which have been *ahem* modified to have additional pockets..........The old combat jacket sucked too, collar or not.


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## QORvanweert

qjdb said:
			
		

> OK, you guys, just so you ARE aware:
> 
> 1) I am NOT a cadet.
> *2) I am a fully commissioned officer in the Canadian Reserves*.   I may not be operational, but I still am in the army.   The cadets are the civilians, not me.   I have to answer to the same rules as you, and can get a nice little holiday in Club Ed if I screw up.
> 3) I did NOT beg, steal or borrow the CADPAT uniform.
> 4) It was ISSUED to me.
> 5)   Out here, everyone that I have seen, except people on BMQ, have the CADPAT.


 um.. I might be mistaken but I didn't know that CIC officers were commissioned? and if you were that would make you part of the CIC not the reserves...


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## Eowyn

QORvanweert said:
			
		

> um.. I might be mistaken but I didn't know that CIC officers were commissioned? and if you were that would make you part of the CIC not the reserves...



CIC Officers are commissioned, their commissioning scrolls are the same.  CIC is part of the Reserves, just not the Primary Reserves.


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## QORvanweert

ok... I think that the new ACU's will be interesting targets this year at Petawawa....


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## Marine

According to MilitaryMorons.com, It says that the Army turned down a pattern they were working on with Crye for the Greyish ACU. The thing that gets me is that the Crye Cammies (AKA MultiCam) did better than the ACU in camouflage field tests. So why did the Army choose the digital pattern instead? For further reference you can visit, www.multicampattern.com      www.cryeprecision.com      www.militarymorons.com

I've talked to some soldiers...Army Officers, They are looking forward to recieving them, but they are unsure about the colors. I would love to see them in the field...The Officers I talked too are also mad because they will not be able to wear their "MOS Insignia" ,for lack of a better term, on their collars. Maybe they will get a patch for that also.

If I turn my cammies inside out I can have my own set of ACUs. I hope I can get my hands on a set.


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## Marine

Here is a picture I put together showing the camouflage patterns.  It has the new ACU, US Air Force digital tiger stripe, US Navy, as well as standing MARPATs. I am not sure of the lighting conditions. It's just kinda motivating. (The urban MARPAT was a prototype and is not being used by the Marines. It looks cool anyway.)

I have also added stand alone pics of the ACU and US Air Force tiger stripe patterns. The pictures were both taken indoors. The ACU pic shows the difference in color and pattern comparing/contrasting the ACU vs the "Analogs". (Digital vs Analog)

As far as I know there is one pattern for the ACU. It is the lighting conditions that make the photos of the uniforms look different. (outside, indoors, night)

Are there any known photos of the ACU in action? or any test results?


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## Acorn

The fella on the left (SFC, I think?) has an awful lot of "stuff" on his uniform. We stick with name tags and rank slip-ons. Is there really an need in the US Army to advertise all of the courses you've taken on your combat uniform? Why not save it for the dress outfit, which allows you to have the gew-gaws in silver and/or brass, highly polished?

Don't take this as a "we Canadians are more modest/sensible/whatever than you" but as an honest question: why are qual badges etc required on combat uniforms?

Acorn


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## Big Foot

Wow, those things are @$$ ugly. I love my CADPAT, especially since it doesn't look like that.


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## Marine

S_Baker said:
			
		

> "MOS Insignia" ,for lack of a better term,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Marine," not to bust your balls or anything but there is a better term (and the correct one) the "MOS" insignia is "Branch Insignia."   Officers have a "Branch" NCOs and junior enlisted soldiers have MOS'   Just thought I would clear that up.
Click to expand...


Thanks for the info, but they are mad about not having the branch/mos insignia


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## Marine

Acorn said:
			
		

> why are qual badges etc required on combat uniforms?
> 
> Acorn



That's a good question...

As far as I know, The only thing that goes on the ACU is the Name/Service tapes, Rank Insignia, Skill Badges, and Patches (Country/Unit) basically the same stuff that went on the prior uniform. It is a lot of stuff to keep up with. It is more of an issue with pride of your accomplshments and unit. It does hold some historical significance. I don't understand why it would be on the combat uniform. I'm still wondering why the Marines allow the skill badges. You are only allowed to display two in the Marines. I guess that cuts down on the "shiny". I hope some one has a good answer...somewhere.

Anyway back to my thoughts, the huge Velcro patch on the shoulder of the ACU isn't very tactical. My idea about that is, if the Army is going to keep the velcro patch, they would have to have some kind of covering that diplays the camouflage pattern as well as the patch. For instance, Instead of having just the shield or a circle, it would be the same shape as the velcro patch with the Unit patch inside...Maybe that is too much work...Maybe the name tapes should match the cammies too, but I am pretty sure they will fix that problem. Also,there are some very good features that the ACU has...The lower calf pocket is the size of a magazine, that makes for easy reloading in the kneeling. OK, so the rest is "basically" just the same as the MCCUU (Marine Corps Combat Utility Uniform), except fo the collar which is kinda useless because it can be folded up like that anyway. (Don't forget the pen pockets...)

The Army should really look into the colors on the pattern of the ACU. I really don't see those colors doing well anywhere, well maybe excpet for a snow covered environment, or specific urban areas. I just hope that they don't drop functionality for uniqueness. That may cost many soldiers in the future. I don't want that to happen. S/F


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## Cadet Orban

I'm a Cadet (AFJROTC). That obviously holds no water here, nor anywhere, and even less still being JROTC. However I'm also an Air Farce brat and live at Luke AFB (Arizona). Ack... I'm being bred to be one of those little holier than thou officers! Better commit suicide now. Anywho...

My step-dad was selected to test the Air Farce uniform (ugly arse tiger stripe things). They're currently a no-go as they tried some new material and the things shrunk to midget size after 3 or 4 washes and dryings (most people said they lost about 4-5 inches on the waist after the 5th wash/dry and air drying didn't delay it too much either.). For the record though, they're really comfortable, I've worn them for all of ten minutes, but they beat the current BDU by miles in comfort. Also, they are for garrison wear, and they were done almost strictly for aesthetics (or that's the way the guy who wrote the article in our local paper made it sound.)

Though belt loops for the pistol belt are a pretty neat idea, but I try and wear it lower whenever I have the need to wear one (only for ALICE gear when I hike.)

I'd imagine patches would change to something similar to the Chair Force style on the test uniforms (dark blue in place of black and a lighter blue in place of OD)

I was doing some research and the Army is thinking about modifying the TO/E for XVIII Corp. and USASOC to continue the wear of black boots. However these are the same people who issue the black beret so that's iffy at best. But I cringe to think of what the Black Hats will do during inspection with suede boots...

Finally, from what I've read and heard there's three color schemes, and if you're off to a cold weather environment they'll issue current equipment until something new is devised, however there's no current plans for that it seems.

PS: The ACU pattern with the blue and all that light stuff looks really similar to some commercial "night-time desert camo" that I've seen on reversible jackets. As for the validity of the night-time crap, that is up for grabs.



Oh yeah... Infantry all the way!


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## Blackhorse7

I like the cut of the uniform... ie pocket design, not too sure about the pre-faded look though.  It would be interesting to see it in use, angainst various backgrounds.

The patches and name tapes have got to go.  They stick out like a neon sign.  Defeats the entire purpose of the cam pattern.


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## Love793

I'm sure just like our CADPAT, it's going to take a while for people to get used to.  I remember guys throwing scrim over their Cadpat helmet covers, strictly to hide the "Stupid Look", when they first where issued.

As for the walking billboard patches, I'm sure that they will made similar to ours, in CADPAT/MARPAT and what ever the US Army, USAF call theirs.

I do find it interesting though that this was first released back in June, and I still haven't seen any CNN footage of it in either Afghanistan or Iraq.  Have any of our guys who have been on Athena seen them in theatre?  I've only seen the Marpat.


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## Lost_Warrior

I noticed the uniform is made with zippers at the front.

IMHO, this is a bad idea.  Zippers are prone to freezing in the winter...breaking under extreme conditions, and other nice little mis-haps we all know and love zippers for.

With buttons, if one falls off, you can just sew a new one back on, where as if the zipper breaks, it's a lot harder to fix..


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## tomahawk6

It's too bad the Army is wasting money on a new combat uniform. The existing camo pattern was fine and the changes that were made on the ACU could have been done on the BDU at far less cost.


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## bossi

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> It's too bad the Army is wasting money on a new combat uniform. The existing camo pattern was fine and the changes that were made on the ACU could have been done on the BDU at far less cost.



(chuckle)  Oh, come on ... be a sport ... (I'm pulling your leg, in a good-natured way, okay?)
Once in a while it doesn't hurt to change things ...  especially when there have been so many advances in technology since the last change ...
(for example - I don't know when "Woodland" camo was invented, but ... I'm confident it was a few decades ago ...)

As for design changes - sometimes it's a REAL pain in the butt to try and gradually unbutton something one button at a time ...
(oh, come on now ... I know that you know what I'm talking about ... wink!)
Sure - cars change every year, and look how much we complain about that!
On the other hand, when we get something different every five/ten years (can't think of a good example) the time interval allows us to get tired of the old one, come up with improvements for the new one, and "just do it"!

Anyway - don't get me wrong - I really shouldn't refute your personal (American) viewpoint on the ACU (also American), but ... what the heck - if neighbours can't lean over the fence once in a while and have a friendly chat ... either they need a taller fence, or new neighbours (chuckle!!!)


----------



## Ukraineboy

I heard there were studies done that Gray is the most...unobstrusive colour, so it blends in well wit its surrounding because of contrast.

That's why its sort of Gray.


----------



## Marine

I wonder why the Army turned down this cammy pattern (see link) for the acu, it looks a lot better, is multi-environmental and came out #1 is tests. www.militarymorons.com/gear/crye1.html     seems like they wanted the digital pattern way too bad... you can also go to www.multicampattern.com ,or www.cryeprecision.com for more refences......every soldier a rifleman....hmmm


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## Marine

ummm....references


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## Blackhorse7

Fifteen years is a long time though, especially considering the world climate these days.  I hate to say it, but I think CADPAT, MARPAT, and the new US Army ACU are going to be seeing a lot of operational use in the next fifteen years.


----------



## onecat

"its likely that the ACU is only an interim uniform.  I believe it will change when the Future warrior comes on line in about 15 yrs."

Interim after only 15 years of service... what would you call long term?  Older BDU is only 20 plus years old... is that interim too.


----------



## Marine

SFontaine said:
			
		

> How? They adapted a digital pattern? I don't see the Army replying to small arms fire with tactical nukes yet. The Marine Corps seems good enough at doing that so far.
> 
> Marine Corps response to one guy with an AK:
> :mg:
> :cam:
> :rocket:
> :akimbo:
> :gunner:
> :flame:
> 
> And the Army response:
> :sniper:



Army of One....I guess that's what PFC Lynch thought too...


----------



## tomahawk6

A bit insensitive dont you think Marine, regarding PFC Lynch ? According to the official report the vehicle she was riding in was taken out by enemy fire [RPG]. She was unconscious when she was captured. She was lucky to have survived that ambush and subsequent captivity. The Army doesnt have any trouble laying down surpressing fire.


----------



## Love793

Easy boys, you're supposed to be on the same side. ;D


----------



## Marine

Water under the bridge...

I saw the ACU on the pentagon channel(AFFES)... it came as quite a shock to me. It had kind of a orange tint. Maybe it was just the lighting. I think it would make a great urban camouflage....but never in the woods...possibly in the desert...
Here's a quick pic...


----------



## Teddy Ruxpin

Well, I saw the uniform in person two weeks ago (on a 2 star and his Sgt Maj, no less) and have to agree with Marine.  It looks like a very faded version of CADPAT - very grey and even the greens are washed out.  In an urban setting, I should think it would be very effective.  I'm not so sure about temperate forest as the pattern strikes me as too light in colour.  Love the shoulder pockets though; as Bossi points out, they're perfect when wearing a vest...


----------



## Marine

Hopefully the Army only does missions in urban environments from now on, I think some commanders might just tell everyone to wear the Analog woodlands if we go to Korea, or China. (might be unlikey...but) For house to house in Iraq the ACU will do. it seems a little too urban than multi environmental as the Army claims. I hope they don't have to raid any town from the woods in the future...I mean there are ops in Japan, Korea, and all over where there is no desert and is no urban grays. Maybe a reversible uniform would of been a better choice. One side for woodland and the other for desert....

On a side note, The green flak jackets that are issued in Iraq can easily be camouflage either by throwing some dirt on them, wearing them for a week, or putting the desert cover over them. Most of them are being replaced by the coyote gear anyway.


----------



## Teddy Ruxpin

Fulda Gap...LOL ...Too true.

Seriously, I think the pattern would be decent for urban ops, winter, or even desert terrain (its light enough to blend in with a sandy background).  I never got to see the 2 star lurking about at night (thank God!), so am not sure how effective the pattern is in the dark (CADPAT with the black is very effective).  At first glance, it _seems_ very light indeed.  Time will tell, I suppose.

Cheers,


----------

