# Ignorant Civies



## Limpy (7 Nov 2004)

I've been asked and have overheard some really ignorant questions regarding the Army or the CF. At
 MacDonald's and once at Wendy's. So me and two others go to Mc Dicks after a parade night and one of the employees (female around 17 to 19yrs. old) asked if you could eat the buttons on combats because a friend said you could. Then at Wendy's an employee said something about liking to join the army but she said that I think they don't allow females. Well I told otherwise and that you should look into it. 

I would however like to say I don't blame these people for the ignorance. I just graduated high school and can easily say that they don't inform squat to students about the Armed Forces. In fact I once had an argument with the principal about not allowing the army reserve to come and give a presentation to my CAPP 11/12 class. The other problem is these peoples parents. They are just as ignorant if not worse than the children they have brought up. In fact I ve known some people who's very parents, the people who should be most supportive in their children's career choices, saying no because of ignorance. Caused by what? Fear? Fear of letting go I think?

So has anyone had anything interesting said to them lately that sticks out? Maybe even a compliment?


----------



## SHELLDRAKE!! (7 Nov 2004)

The "ignorance" IMHO is the lack of knowledge that results from a society that has become too comfy being sheltered from war and terror.When getting a flu shot is your biggest priority and not hoping your children wontl be killed in an air strike, you tend to think differently.

  A few months after returning from Afghanistan I was standing in line at a Burger King in a small Alberta town and an elderly lady tapped me on the shoulder and after pointing to the crest on my t-shirt, she asked "were you really in Afghanistan?"I replied yes and she said "thank you very much, I want to buy your lunch, its the least I can do for you offering your life." This was a cicvie with obviously not a lot of military experiences who took the time out of her life to recognize the efforts of an Armed forces that we see as being forgotten.

  Its times like that, we feel that what we are doing is making a difference.


----------



## Bob the builder (7 Nov 2004)

Limpy said:
			
		

> one of the employees (female around 17 to 19yrs. old) asked if you could eat the buttons on combats because a friend said you could.




You should have asked if she wanted to come over to your house, cook some button stew and watch a movie.


----------



## Limpy (7 Nov 2004)

Probably not a bad idea she was good looking if memory serves. Anyway I like that MacDonalds because one night me and one other got free sundaes for being in uniform.


----------



## pegged (7 Nov 2004)

Let's see, where to begin with this one...

"Are you going to Iraq?" - serious question, multiple times.

I've been called a cadet, and a scout, while in uniform. (some chick with her boyfriend walked by two others and myself and said something along the lines of "What are they, scouts? Look they even have the matching bag") She was saying all this seriously, I had my CADPAT daypack on. That one pissed me off.

On halloween I was asked if it was a costume. (This could be excusable, but if civies can't even recognize their own Army's uniform, you know there is something wrong, that goes with the above thing too)

One of the things that really bugs me is "Ten-hut" from people in cars driving by, or teenagers.


----------



## Limpy (7 Nov 2004)

I really personally hate the middle of the fore head salute I get all the time.


----------



## pegged (7 Nov 2004)

Personally, I think the "Are you going to Iraq?" question is the worst. 

That really shows how much people watch the ******* news (pardon my language). I've been asked it many times, not in jest either.


----------



## dutchie (7 Nov 2004)

The reaction I get these days is a whole lot better than it was 6 or 7 years ago. Here in Lotusland, the Army was viewed not much better than an roving band of Neanderthals 'back then'. I actually had a guy ask me, around '97, if i had "Beaten a Somali lately" and another (separate day) ask me "How does baby taste?"". Still another said nothing, just walked up to my buddy as we walked down the street and slugged him square in the mug. 

I'll take an uninformed but neutral civie over those clowns anyday. 

This change, IMHO, is one of the few positive spin offs of 9/11 and Afghanistan. Even in Vancouver, people are pretty appreciative of the Forces.


----------



## Michael Dorosh (7 Nov 2004)

Actually, the question about the buttons kind of indicates to me that the girl is not ignorant, but has taken an active interest in the Forces.

It is not true, however, it is an old urban legend in the Forces that the buttons are edible - one of those stories that gets passed on down from one generation to the next....so she obviously must have heard it from someone, somewhere, and remembered it.

Dufus, she was hitting on you!


----------



## Limpy (7 Nov 2004)

Dufus, she was hitting on you!



Happens alot.


----------



## dutchie (7 Nov 2004)

Re: the buttons.

I heard that on my basic..."If you get caught without rations, you can melt them. They have, like, 500 calories each!"

The Patricia Section Commanders nearly fell over when one particularly dense recruit asked one how they tasted.


----------



## Tpr.Orange (7 Nov 2004)

Ive heard the baby killer rant, ive heard the war monger lines, the iraq questions. 

But the one that really gets me, what the hell are you supposed to be dressed up as. This was asked and it wasn't even halloween!! 

But misinformation is deffinatley the reasoning behind the "ignorance."

Today however I did meet two very nice people here in Toronto who had informed me that they just signed up to join the army and had tons of questions for me. We had a great discussion and I was able to educate them and several of their friends about my experiences with the forces and what Ive gotten out of them. 

So its good to see that there are interested and keen people roaming around and not everyone is as ignorant as it seems.


----------



## bubba (7 Nov 2004)

there's good flat faces,there's bad flat faces. :-\limpy bye i thinked you defintly missed out on a chance for some lovin. :-* :'(


----------



## arctictern (7 Nov 2004)

Last week at work a guy I went to highschool with walks up to me and asked me how I am doing with the army, I told him how I am waiting for a job offer that could come anyday. He said "that's good we need more idiots to go die in Iraq". Even during highschool he'd always be making negative commens on our military. Did I mention he's still in highschool?


----------



## Inch (7 Nov 2004)

I've always had mostly positive experiences with civvies. There's of course been a few idiots saying "ten-hut" as I walk by but for the most part I've gotten positive responses from people. 

The two most recent experiences happened in Halifax. Halifax, I've noticed, tends to be a little more in tune with the military due to our large presence here. MARLANT as well as 12 Wing Shearwater plus the reserves, in total, I think there's 5 or 6 military establishments here. Anyway, a month or so ago there was a military equipment trade show downtown, we got bussed over from Shearwater. As my buddy and I were waiting for the bus to go back to Shearwater, an older gentleman came up to us and asked about our uniforms (we were both in flight suits, mine was green and my buddy's was still the old blue one), I explained to him what they were, then he asked about the badges. After I explained what the badges meant, he put out his hand and nearly shook my arm off. He said "well I just want to say thanks for what you're doing, it was a pleasure talking to you" and off he went. 

The second occurrence was in Sobey's while I was getting some groceries. I stopped by on my way home, again in my flight suit and this lady followed me for a bit until she got a chance to stop me. She asked if I flew Sea Kings and I told her I did, she then proceeded to tell me about how she writes to the troops overseas and has been doing so for quite a few years. Most recently she had been writing to a Sea King crew that was over there. When they got back home, they invited her out to Shearwater for family day and took her for a ride in the Sea King. She must have said it half a dozen times but she kept telling me how proud she was of all of us and how thankful she was that we do what we do.

So they're not all bad, the important thing to remember is that most of the civvies don't know what we do, so take the time, be polite and answer their questions. It's the only way we're ever going to get them to understand what we do.

Cheers


----------



## McG (7 Nov 2004)

Pte(R).OShea said:
			
		

> Personally, I think the "Are you going to Iraq?" question is the worst.


While we do not have any formed organization in Iraq, we do have Canadian soldiers serving in the country (my unit just sent one to do pre-deployment training in the UK).  That would make this a legitimate question.


----------



## Alex252 (7 Nov 2004)

*I've been called a cadet, and a scout, while in uniform. (some chick with her boyfriend walked by two others and myself and said something along the lines of "What are they, scouts? Look they even have the matching bag") She was saying all this seriously, I had my CADPAT daypack on. That one pissed me off.*
Wow I think i would've dropped the gloves on their a** . I guess you just have to ignore people like that


----------



## NorthernProtector (7 Nov 2004)

Good grief...you guys need to get more sun to harden up your skin.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon (7 Nov 2004)

Alex252 said:
			
		

> *I've been called a cadet, and a scout, while in uniform. (some chick with her boyfriend walked by two others and myself and said something along the lines of "What are they, scouts? Look they even have the matching bag") She was saying all this seriously, I had my CADPAT daypack on. That one pissed me off.*
> Wow I think i would've dropped the gloves on their a** . I guess you just have to ignore people like that



Oh yes that would be great for public relations.  :


----------



## pegged (7 Nov 2004)

McG the thing is though is the civies that ask are those type that think our entire Army is over there. Not just a few soldiers here and there, with the Brits or whatever. That's why the question is really annoying. They just assume things like if a guy's in the Army, then he'll be going to Iraq. They assume that if it's Army, it's Iraq. I can't explain what I mean but yea lol.


----------



## trucker935 (7 Nov 2004)

A friend and I went to get a haircut this week dressed in our uniforms ( Cadpat ) and while at the barber shop an older gentleman asked us if we were going Duck Hunting because of the way we were dressed. 

At first we thought he was kidding until he was finished getting his haircut. We were still waiting and upon his return to get his jacket he asked us "Isn't a bit late in the year to be Duck Hunting?"

We explained to him that we were in the military and this is our uniform.

Also during the days leading up to Halloween I have been asked by people if this was my Halloween Costume.


----------



## kitako (7 Nov 2004)

Thank you,from a civilian.Dont take it personal people can be rude and ignorant,i for one am very proud of our troops and i salute you all.


----------



## Korus (7 Nov 2004)

You can't always blame civvies for their ignorance, and if they do make comments, you should be bigger than getting worked up over it. It's human nature to make fun of things, especially that which they don't know anything about or want to know anything about. Remember when you were a new recruit? I'll admit when I was a brand spankin' new recruit I said/thought some pretty ignorant things, I don't think anyone could say they didn't.

If you start flipping out on a civvie, then how does that look? It helps to harden their negative perceptions.. As mentioned before, take the time to talk to them, inform them.. The most anti-military person I met was actually a friend of a friend whom I was introduced to in a campus bar.. Her immediate reaction to finding out I was in the military was an "Oh my god.." and an expression that looked as if I was killing a baby in front of her. I took the time to explain what the Canadian military is all about, and describe some of the things that our nation's military has done overseas recently, and it immediately changed her opinion 180 degrees. 

The most annoying, though, was when we were on our way to the mess dinner last year.. We were in DEU's, and a couple of teenagers started singing "in the navy" as we passed by. (we're Army). We just laughed it off and kept going. Nothing worth getting worked up over.

[edited because I can't spell -Roko]


----------



## the 48th regulator (7 Nov 2004)

hehe I remember that everytime I was in a kilt I would get the question "what instrument do you play?"

My answer was " The Assault Rifle!"


nuff said

tess


----------



## Korus (7 Nov 2004)

Hah! That's great.. 

Cheers.


----------



## pbi (8 Nov 2004)

> MacDonald's and once at Wendy's. So me and two others go to Mc Dicks after a parade night and one of the employees (female around 17 to 19yrs. old) asked if you could eat the buttons on combats because a friend said you could. Then at Wendy's an employee said something about liking to join the army but she said that I think they don't allow females. Well I told otherwise and that you should look into it.



This is a very old story: I heard it in the Army Reserve decades ago. Apparently the tale was that on the old Arctic Parka you could boil the buttons to make soup in case you ran out of rations. I never tried it actually, and I rather suspect it was BS.

On the issue of the civvies, I am in line with those posters who have observed that we are treated FAR better than we were in the 70's an 80's. I cannot remember the last negative experience I had, but I can recall lots of positive ones, from common citizens. I think that we need to get our heads out of our collective a**es and stop being so sensitive. Just let it bounce, then try engaging them in real conversation: you will surprise them. IMHO alot of the BS, especially from geeks in highschool, is envy that they would never admit to.   Of course, if a fight breaks out, win.


----------



## 48Highlander (8 Nov 2004)

pbi said:
			
		

> On the issue of the civvies, I am in line with those posters who have observed that we are treated FAR better than we were in the 70's an 80's. I cannot remember the last negative experience I had, but I can recall lots of positive ones, from common citizens.



Try walking around downtown Toronto in uniform and you'll get your share of negative experiences.  From what I've observed, people out west tend to be a lot more conservative, so I wouldn't expect to get as many negative comments out there as I do here.  You're probably right though, we do get a fair bit of positive comments as well, and it seems to me that the public has become a lot more supportive in the years after 9/11.  Even a large portion of those opposed to Canadian involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq seem to be supportive and understanding of the military, and I've had quite a few good, civilized discusions with random citizens whose views are diametricaly opposed to mine.  Like Roko said, we should take the time to educate and inform the public rather than getting upset or blowing them off as "ignorant civvies".


----------



## pbi (8 Nov 2004)

48Highlander said:
			
		

> Try walking around downtown Toronto in uniform and you'll get your share of negative experiences. From what I've observed, people out west tend to be a lot more conservative, so I wouldn't expect to get as many negative comments out there as I do here. You're probably right though, we do get a fair bit of positive comments as well, and it seems to me that the public has become a lot more supportive in the years after 9/11. Even a large portion of those opposed to Canadian involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq seem to be supportive and understanding of the military, and I've had quite a few good, civilized discusions with random citizens whose views are diametricaly opposed to mine. Like Roko said, we should take the time to educate and inform the public rather than getting upset or blowing them off as "ignorant civvies".



I did my Res service in TO 1974-82 and it was utter shyte: you were asking for trouble to wear your uniform on the street. I guess I use that as my yardstick for measuring "bad", and I use my service (most of it out west...) for measring "good". I am sure you are right: TO, as our biggest city, was always a bit mentally challenged when it came to dealing with the military. I recall being told that during the Toronto Snow Storm, when we deployed Bisons into some of the downtown fire halls, the Chief of TFD (25 years of service?/ 30 years??) said that he had "_never seen an Army vehicle before_". Cheers.


----------



## Blindspot (8 Nov 2004)

I never had any problems during the late 80s in Toronto. Taking the bus, the subway, walking down Queen St. I never got harrassed. In fact all I can recall were the geniune cheers of encouragement from the homeless on Jarvis and Queen we would get when doing PT. Nowadays they have a monster fence around Moss Park Armouries don't they; to keep out the "Homes not Bombs" nutjobs?


----------



## Gayson (8 Nov 2004)

48Highlander said:
			
		

> Try walking around downtown Toronto in uniform and you'll get your share of negative experiences.   From what I've observed, people out west tend to be a lot more conservative, so I wouldn't expect to get as many negative comments out there as I do here.   You're probably right though, we do get a fair bit of positive comments as well, and it seems to me that the public has become a lot more supportive in the years after 9/11.   Even a large portion of those opposed to Canadian involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq seem to be supportive and understanding of the military, and I've had quite a few good, civilized discusions with random citizens whose views are diametricaly opposed to mine.   Like Roko said, we should take the time to educate and inform the public rather than getting upset or blowing them off as "ignorant civvies".



I have always found people in Toronto and the GTA be very nice.  A few times civiese been very kind when I was on my way to or from Fort York.

For example:  A couple of times I would be short of change to get on the TTC,the driver would just let my give him what I had.
One time I was at York Dale Mall walking towards the subway.  Some civiesked up to me and just gave me his day pass as I suspect he had just finished with it.  I used to go to the nearby coffee time when I got to Fort York early, people would offer to buy me coffee.  Another time I was at York Dale mall, I decided to get something to eat in the food court before hopping on the subway.  I had all my kit with me, I was approached by a security guard who insisted on storing my kit in their security offices safely while I got something to eat so that I could take my ruck off and not have to keep my eye on it while in line for food.

The only time I have ever had troubles in Toronto is the occasional time when civvies would ask me if I was on my way to iraq afghAfghanistancause apparently the TTC thway goes all the way to the middle-east).  Also one civviese fun of me because I had to carry a ruck on the way to the fort and he didn't.

I think people are very supportive of the CF these days.


----------



## 48Highlander (8 Nov 2004)

Blindspot said:
			
		

> Nowadays they have a monster fence around Moss Park Armouries don't they; to keep out the "Homes not Bombs" nutjobs?



It's only around the parking lot (which is normal) and along the side of the armories which facess the park.  A few years back they tried throwing up a barb-wire fence around the entire ermory, but that idea got scrapped for reasons unknown.



			
				J. Gayson said:
			
		

> I have always found people in Toronto and the GTA be very nice. A few times civiese been very kind when I was on my way to or from Fort York.



Like I said, things have gotten better since 9/11, but I'm still surprised you haven't seen any worse.  For instance, whenever my regiment does a ruck march, we get people telling us they don't "appreciate" us "storming through their neighbourhoods".  Or the one guy (in the worst part of toronto) who told us he didn't want us walking through there because we were "bringing down the property values"  .  I've had people call me a baby-killer, yell things like "get out of Iraq" (I'm pretty sure I was in Canada at the time), "homes not bombs", and similar drivel.  Then there's the time when I walked onto a subway car to find myself facing the biggest Mexican I've ever seen.  I'm not quite sure what he said, but I did hear the word "pendaho" several times.  And ofcourse, during this years  rememberance day parade, some Middle Eastern fella decided it'd be good fun to run along yelling insults at us.  Not to mention the homeless types who decided our monuments would make great places to watch the parade from.  I didn't much appriciate having to do an eyes-left for a reviewing officer who regularily sleeps in a puddle of his own piss.

Anyway, it's not all negative experiences.  In fact, generaly, and especially recently, the good ones tend to outweigh the bad ones.  Guess I'm just a wee bit jaded.


----------



## GGboy (8 Nov 2004)

A lot of your problems with folks in Toronto may have more to do with the class of people you run into in the neighbourhoods around most of the armouries than any widespread dislike of the military in general or the CF in particular. Most of these people also shout insults at random passers-by -- since a lot of the homeless appear to have "mental health issues." I wouldn't take it too personally ...
I find it kind of appalling that our largest city has virtually no reg force military presence. In fact, now that 2 PPCLI is off in Shilo, most  major Canadian cities don't have large bases located in their boundaries or nearby. Edmonton, Halifax and Ottawa (if you count NDHQ) are the only exceptions I can think of: is it any wonder that so many civilians don't know squat about our military?


----------



## sguido (8 Nov 2004)

Inch said:
			
		

> *snip*
> (we were both in flight suits, mine was green and my buddy's was still the old blue one)
> *snip*



_Old_ blue one?

Thanks a lot, Inch.   That one little comment was all it took for me to realize how old I'm getting.   Back in my day we were looking forward to the fact that we'd get blue ones in a few _years_...   

Anywho...

As for civies, the ones that will actually make comments to you are the extremes.   You'll run the gamut from positive comments to negative ones.   Rarely will you get a sheeple to bleat out a, "Thanks for what you're doing."

How to deal with the sheeple?   Thank those who made an effort to communicate with you in a positive light, educate those who are asking a question, and ignore the ones who are out to cause grief.   Remember, no question is a stupid one, and when you're wearing the uniform, you've got to behave as an ambassador of the Forces.

"Ignorant" is a bit of a harsh word.   Misinformed is better.   For the original poster, the edible button question was somebody pulling a 'Mythbusters' and checking out an urban legend.   The person who thought females aren't allowing in the Forces perhaps heard, or saw, something about a branch or service where females aren't permitted to serve, and expanded it to include the entire CF.   (She could have been watching TV, and caught a part about, say, females not serving on US subs.   If she only heard the 'females can't serve' part, she'll believe that until corrected.)


----------



## Michael Dorosh (8 Nov 2004)

GGboy said:
			
		

> A lot of your problems with folks in Toronto may have more to do with the class of people you run into in the neighbourhoods around most of the armouries than any widespread dislike of the military in general or the CF in particular. Most of these people also shout insults at random passers-by -- since a lot of the homeless appear to have "mental health issues." I wouldn't take it too personally ...
> I find it kind of appalling that our largest city has virtually no reg force military presence. In fact, now that 2 PPCLI is off in Shilo, most   major Canadian cities don't have large bases located in their boundaries or nearby. Edmonton, Halifax and Ottawa (if you count NDHQ) are the only exceptions I can think of: is it any wonder that so many civilians don't know squat about our military?



Absence makes the heart grow fonder....and familiarity breeds contempt.  This is nothing new; when the Canadians landed in England in 1939 and 1940, they were very warmly received in Scotland.  After riding on the train and marching through Aldershot - a garrison town for hundreds of years - they found the locals quite ambivalent to them.

The open hostility is a rare thing where I am from also, and usually from teenagers who pretty much feel that way about everyone, not just the Forces.


----------



## enfield (8 Nov 2004)

Civie: "babykiller! fascist pig!"
Soldier1: "Babykiller? nah, I'm the rapist. he's the babykiller. get it right." (points at Soldier 2)
 ;D

I've been called a babykiller, a fascist, a right wing nutcase, a psycho, etc., but only on the uni campus. Off campus, its just strange looks and a lack of understanding. I've personally found that many people, when you talk to them are curious about the military and what the military does, and are more ignorant than hostile. 
In DEU's (wearing a kilt) I've been mistaken for: a bagpiper, a boy scout, a hotel doorman, a tourist guide, a US Marine, a British soldier, and just about anyone and everyone expept a Canadian soldier. That tells me the CF needs to at least let people know what we look like... Incidentally, almost everytime my buddies and I have gone to the bar in DEU's, an American former/current serviceman or group of them buys us a round.


----------



## combat_medic (8 Nov 2004)

While I can't voice any experience about civvies in Toronto, I can certainly testify that not all of the west is conservative. Having originally joined up in Edmonton, I noticed most people were farely well informed about the military, and were either openly supportive, or ambivalent to our presence (heck, I used to work at a McDonald's there and saw Iltis and other military vehicles in the drive thru on a regular basis).

However, I got a HUGE culture shock after moving to Vancouver. I worked downtown briefly, and would change into my uniform at work and take a quick bus to the armouries on parade nights. In the brief course of walking 2 blocks to the bus stop, and a 5 minute bus ride, I was subjected to shouts of "baby killer" or "warmonger" and other such nonsense all the time. During some training that took course at an armoury downtown, there was a huge anti war protest and, upon heading to my car, I had crazy war protesters throwing posters in my face and yelling obscenities at me. 

In addition to this, there are stories from people out this way who tell of being denied entrance to a bar or club on Remembrance Day in dress uniform. People here are extremely anti-military and are not afraid to show their true colours. 

All this aside, I did a recruiting drive at a women's show in Vancouver, and expected that, because most of the people attending were middle aged+ women and the occasional husband, that the questions would be more intelligent. I was sadly mistaken. Things like "you can't be in the army, they don't let women in" (to which I nearly responded, "thanks, that must mean I can go home now") or "you aren't paid as much as the men, are you?" or "my neighbour's kid is a brat, can I sign him up and you come by and take him?" Canadians in general seem to be grossly misinformed, and, despite the frustration at hearing the same stupid questions over and over, the best we can do is to try to be patient and help them be more informed.


----------



## 48Highlander (8 Nov 2004)

Enfield said:
			
		

> Civie: "babykiller! fascist pig!"
> Soldier1: "Babykiller? nah, I'm the rapist. he's the babykiller. get it right." (points at Soldier 2)
> ;D



I've witnessed a better response than that.  After being called a babykiller, the soldier in question leaned in nice and close and in the roughest voice he could manage groweld "and I always eat what I kill".  Might not have been too good for public relations, but the look on their faces was absolutely priceless.


----------



## Bograt (8 Nov 2004)

So Babykiller is an insult? Perhaps they should closely examine the political platform of the NDP.

I realize that this reference is objectionable. My point is the hypocrisy of their self righteousness. Anything counter to their opinion is labeled racist, right wing, or repressive. 

Recently in a staff room over coffee a colleague stated to the left leaning audience "I don't know why we have a military, it seems like a waste of money to me..." Immediately I replied, "Don't you feel glad that they're people like me willing to volunteer to protect your right to say that? Silence was his response. 

I come from an Air Force family. i know of the sacrifice associated with this line of work-the loss of life, strains on the family etc... Now as I prepare to join, these little exchanges keep me awake at night. My family and I are about to radically change the way we live. It is going to be very hard. Its frustrating hearing comments like that.

I have had a chat about this with a close family friend who just recently retired. He said,"ahh don't worry, you will be called worst by better people  "


----------



## bossi (8 Nov 2004)

"The proof is in the pudding."
The simple fact of the matter is that many Canadians only know what they see on TV - thus, the "get out of Iraq" stuff shouldn't surprise anybody, inasmuch as these people only know that every night they see soldiers in Iraq.  They can't tell the difference between American and Canadian soldiers, hence the confusion.

So what?  Well, the Canadian Army is trying to "Connect With Canadians" in order to correct this lack of knowledge.
In order to try and show the Canadian taxpayer what their soldiers look like, we wear CADPAT in public (... as opposed to the "bad old days" when cbt clo in public was forbidden by the bumbling briefcase bandits ...)


----------



## foerestedwarrior (8 Nov 2004)

The worst I've run into was watching a drunk guy trow a 12 case of empty bottles over our compund fence and walk away, when we asked him to pick them up(politely) He promplty told us to screw off. So the two police officers that both worked for the city had a little chat with him, nedless to say they were picked up by him. I have ony run into the normal, arnt you afraid of dying in iraq junk, you have to take it in stride. All of you are saying it is lack of info that causes ignorance, why not try to inform them, i have conversasions with peopel all the time. They usually come out a much better educated person.


----------



## marshall sl (8 Nov 2004)

I remember playing pool in the Legion near my home after a Parade nightin the late 70's.Some clown came over and said" Army Guy eh? Where's your tank?" I replied "Parked on your car" he did not like it and wanted to fight, said anyone in the army was a   ***! I reminded himthat he was in a Legion and he should watch his mouth. Several of the other patrons( Veterans ) had come over and encouraged him to leave. Still chuckle about that


----------



## Alex252 (8 Nov 2004)

*" Army Guy eh? Where's your tank?" I replied "Parked on your car"* 
How do you guys think of such good comebacks? 

Anyways, Im going to use an example as it may realate to you and the positive/negative attention you get. My family has a cottage up by a place called Elgin about a 45 min drive from Kingston. When ever we go up there its like 2 different worlds. We live near Toronto, Whitby to be exact, and the treatment here is fine. Then when I go into town at my cottage I feel like a king. The treatment by far surpasses any place Ive been. Well the way I see how it relates to you guys is that maybe if you were in a more quiet less publicized/advertised place you'd get more positive comments.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (9 Nov 2004)

Victoria is a much different town now in it's approach to military personnel than it was in the 80's.  Then, it was pretty much a guaranteed insult or much worse if anyone found out that you were in the military.  Now- wow.  It is great.  There is the odd insulting comment, but even most of the "hard-core protest everything types" out here on the left coast don't really get too personal (or maybe I've just been lucky).  I put this down to a real effort by several Admirals in a row to build bridges between the military and civilian communities.  We are in the news alot here and most of it is positive.

I would echo what several others have said here- if you meet with civilians who say something insulting to you- be polite, smile and try to turn it into a learning situation for them- most of it comes from straight ignorance of what we do. Educate!


----------



## Cyloh (9 Nov 2004)

Just this past weekend a bunch of us were on a course in Nanaimo and on the return ferry home to Vancouver this one civy approached us and shook all of our hands and thanked us for what we did and he said we should get more funding. I still can't get over what he did. In my two and a half years in the reserves ive never gotten quite a reaction like that. It was really cool. The most common reaction I get from people when im in uniform are long stares and stupid questions like if we've found BinLaden yet. The worst question ive ever gotten is if i was in the air force, when in my cadpat uniform. 
But when you get good words of encouragement and support from random people in random places its all worth it. People who do things like that make me want to approach other people in uniform, like policemen, and thank them for what they're doing.


----------



## pbi (9 Nov 2004)

> It's only around the parking lot (which is normal) and along the side of the armories which facess the park.  A few years back they tried throwing up a barb-wire fence around the entire ermory, but that idea got scrapped for reasons unknown.



I was in LFCA HQ at that time. ASU Toronto and 32 CBG were very concerned about the security problems at MPA (nothing new-it was a shit hole neighbourhood when I was in the RRegtC 1974-1982) and decided to put up a fence.   I toured the site: it had been turned into a public toilet-literally: the stuff was ankle-deep in the sunken areas along the walls of the building, garbage everywhere. Sickening, and far worse than it had been in the '80's.

Somehow the Minister of National Defense's (remember Art Eggleton.....?) staff found out about it, and we were instructed that a fence would "send the wrong message". So, no fence. This was of course ridiculous PC rubbish at its worst, but it epitomized the extent to which the MNDs portfolio and his riding (and the Liberals' political concerns about their vote-factory in T.O., especially downtown...) got confused on an alarmingly regular basis. Bossi knows what I mean, right mark?  Cheers.


----------



## Simpleton (9 Nov 2004)

I was checking into a hotel a while back, dressed in CADPAT, and there was a couple of guys in front of me waiting in line also. They were in their mid-20s and glanced back at me a couple of times. One of them turned around and asked if I was in the Canadian Military and I thought "here it comes, going to give me a hard time about wasting tax payers dollars on a hotel". I told him I was and he grabbed his buddy and said, "You go in front of us. We never treat our military well and the least we can do is limit your time in line".

I was shocked, but quickly realised that the average Canadian is changing.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (9 Nov 2004)

Pte(R).OShea said:
			
		

> Let's see, where to begin with this one...
> 
> "Are you going to Iraq?" - serious question, multiple times.
> 
> ...


ts also hilarious to get responses on the otherside of the spectrum. One time i walked into a Tim Hortons after a parade. The customers glanced at me , then moved away. The employee that served me decided to give me my order free of charge.( I found this particually odd because it was a fairly large order) When I asked him why, he said "Its the least i can do for a member of the CF." this shocked me oncce again because i had at least eight markings on me that identified me as a cadet (including the word CADET on my epaulette) i thanked him and told him that i was just a cadet and he gave me the meal anyway. 

i only hope that this hospitality wasn't only for me and was given to actual service members


----------



## bossi (9 Nov 2004)

rmc_wannabe said:
			
		

> i only hope that this hospitality wasn't only for me and was given to actual service members



During Op RECUPERATION we'd send the Air LO out for coffee to Tim's at approx 0300 hrs
(i.e. in order to make him do something useful at least once a day ... OK - just kidding ... a little ...!)

Anyway, he staggers back to the Ops Centre with several of those HUGE party boxes full of doughnuts ... and his fate was sealed - from that night onwards, his sole reason for living was to go back to Tim's each and every night at the same time ...

Now, if I could only find a car dealership with such patriotic fervor ...


----------



## foerestedwarrior (9 Nov 2004)

bossi said:
			
		

> Now, if I could only find a car dealership with such patriotic fervor ...



lol, i have had many veterens stop and talk to me in the street(sidewalks actually), and most thank me for serving them. They are greatfull that there are still some that will do what they did, to protect the country, possibly at the cost of our own lives. I personally have had many more good than bad experiances, but from what i have heard, they are getting much better.


----------



## 48Highlander (9 Nov 2004)

pbi said:
			
		

> Somehow the Minister of National Defense's (remember Art Eggleton.....?) staff found out about it, and we were instructed that a fence would "send the wrong message". So, no fence. This was of course ridiculous PC rubbish at its worst, but it epitomized the extent to which the MNDs portfolio and his riding (and the Liberals' political concerns about their vote-factory in T.O., especially downtown...) got confused on an alarmingly regular basis.



Yeah we all figgured it was something like that.  I was a fairly new soldier at the time if I remember correctly, but had already started noticing the touchy-feely trend within the CF/government.  I remember that none of us were sure exactly why the fence was being scrapped, but were cracking jokes about not wanting the army to seem too threatening.  Incidentaly, that was about the same time that we got the order not to wear our webbing in public so we wouldn't intimidate anyone :  Thanks for the confirmation anyway.


----------



## Blindspot (9 Nov 2004)

48Highlander said:
			
		

> Yeah we all figgured it was something like that.   I was a fairly new soldier at the time if I remember correctly, but had already started noticing the touchy-feely trend within the CF/government.   I remember that none of us were sure exactly why the fence was being scrapped, but were cracking jokes about not wanting the army to seem too threatening.   Incidentaly, that was about the same time that we got the order not to wear our webbing in public so we wouldn't intimidate anyone :   Thanks for the confirmation anyway.



Do you mean while on public transportation? We used to do training in the Don Valley, High Park and that park across from Fort York with webbing and rifles. I always wondered what went through the minds of picnicing civillians who looked up from their ham and cheese on bagel to see a fully camouflaged soldier hiding in a bush beside them.


----------



## enfield (9 Nov 2004)

We used to do ruck and webbing marches through Granville Island in Vancouver, with weapons, radios, etc. Don't think that went over well, we don't seem to do that anymore, although the ruck marches and runs around False Creek were quite nice.

Even in Halifax, doing PT around the Commons or Citadel Hill (no, not at night!), we had a fair number of jackass comments from bystanders. And I have encountered at least one establishment in Vancouver that did not allow soldiers in uniform in on Rememberance Day, too much trouble in previous years, they claimed. It would be nice if we behaved ourselves on the few occassions the public saw us... 
In Edmonton the military had an extremely positive reaction, but thats a unique town, I think. a pe

While the public could do a lot to understand us better, I feel that we could do a lot to imprive our appearance to the public as well, both at a personal level (appearing neat, fit, and proffessional) and a macro level (a better media relations effort, a decent recruiting campaign, etc). To some degree the problems we have are of our own creation, although nothing excuses something so dumb as "babykiller!" or "off to die in Iraq, eh?"


----------



## Danjanou (9 Nov 2004)

Alex252 said:
			
		

> *" Army Guy eh? Where's your tank?" I replied "Parked on your car"*
> How do you guys think of such good comebacks?



Years of practice Alex, years of practice. 8)

Like Pbi and some others have said it has gotten better, guys beleive it or not. In the 1970-80s in Vancouver and in the early 1990's in Toronto I got more than my fair share of "babykiller" cracks and just plain puzzled looks.

Funny only place (aside from Germany) where I served that I was almost universally treated well was Nfld. The people on the Rock do understand, aside from the resident granolla brigade at MUN of course.


----------



## Michael Dorosh (9 Nov 2004)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Years of practice Alex, years of practice. 8)
> 
> Like Pbi and some others have said it has gotten better, guys beleive it or not. In the 1970-80s in Vancouver and in the early 1990's in Toronto I got more than my fair share of "babykiller" cracks and just plain puzzled looks.
> 
> Funny only place (aside from Germany) where I served that I was almost universally treated well was Nfld. The people on the Rock do understand, aside from the resident granolla brigade at MUN of course.



We have tons of Newfoundlander women out here in health care - and all of them know what happened on 1 July 1916.


----------



## pbi (9 Nov 2004)

> We used to do training in the Don Valley, High Park and that park across from Fort York with webbing and rifles. I always wondered what went through the minds of picnicing civillians who looked up from their ham and cheese on bagel to see a fully camouflaged soldier hiding in a bush beside them.



We did this quite a bit when I was in RRegtC (74-82). One night, practicing for the Patrol Competition, we launched a raid against a bunch of teenagers sitting around an (illegal..) bonfire in the DV. They were quite surprised as we assaulted through. Of course, today I would probably regard that as idiotic behaviour by us, but as a MCpl I thought it was quite funny. I guess in those days it was a way of "getting back" at the civvies we perceived as hating and mocking us.

Another time, the QOR were training in DV; the assault element was moving along the valley floor, while the fire support base was in overwatch at the top of the cliff edge. A Toronto cop appeared and said words to the effect "Ha-ha: I've got you guys covered. I've been watching you from my cruiser that I have cunningly concealed. You guys would be dead!"

"Really?" replied the Assault Group Commander: "Look up on the ridgeline. You would be the dead one"

Cheers.


----------



## Kevin_B (9 Nov 2004)

I'm curious, what happened on July 1 1916?


----------



## Cloud Cover (9 Nov 2004)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Victoria is a much different town now in it's approach to military personnel than it was in the 80's.   Then, it was pretty much a guaranteed insult or much worse if anyone found out that you were in the military.



Perhaps all the foolishness and "human torpedo test runs" at the Tudor House might have something to do with that?


----------



## chrisf (9 Nov 2004)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Funny only place (aside from Germany) where I served that I was almost universally treated well was Nfld. The people on the Rock do understand, aside from the resident granolla brigade at MUN of course.



Mostly because pretty much everyone on the island has at least one relative in the military...

And regarding the granola's of MUN, they're mostly confined to the MUSE (Student newspaper) office.


----------



## chrisf (9 Nov 2004)

Kevin_B said:
			
		

> I'm curious, what happened on July 1 1916?



The Royal Newfoundland Regiment was slaughtered after going over the top at Beaumont Hamel.


----------



## Michael Dorosh (10 Nov 2004)

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> The Royal Newfoundland Regiment was slaughtered after going over the top at Beaumont Hamel.



Well, they weren't Royal until later in the war.

But that is about the gist of it.

To expand - 1 July 1916 was the first day of "the July drive" - what later became known as the Battle of the Somme.  The battle lasted til November, but the first day set the record for most casualties in a single day.  The British Army lost 20,000 killed and 40,000 wounded in the space of 24 hours.  Kind of like the entire Canadian Armed Forces jumping off and getting shot in a single day.

The Newfoundland Regiment had it especially bad; the front line trenches were so choked with dead, they couldn't move up to the start line so they had to go over the top from behind their front line trenches.  800 men left their trenches, and within 15 minutes or so over 700 of them were hit.  None made it beyond the friendly barbed wire.

Much of the first day of the Somme was like that, though there were some pretty remarkable successes that day, also.   By the time the battle ended four months or so later, hundreds of thousands on both sides had been killed, maimed, crippled or otherwise scarred.

If you meet someone who says they're from Newfoundland, but can't tell you what Beaumont Hamel is - they're lying.

Some feel tiny Newfoundland never recovered.  While they sent artillerymen over in World War Two, never again have they sent a formed unit of infantry out on operations.

They had also suffered at Gallipoli IIRC - Newfoundland wasn't part of Canada until 1949 so they served as part of the British Army in both world wars.


----------



## 48Highlander (10 Nov 2004)

Blindspot said:
			
		

> Do you mean while on public transportation? We used to do training in the Don Valley, High Park and that park across from Fort York with webbing and rifles. I always wondered what went through the minds of picnicing civillians who looked up from their ham and cheese on bagel to see a fully camouflaged soldier hiding in a bush beside them.



Training in the Don Valley and HIgh Park stopped a year or two before I joined, but I've heard some wonderful stories about it.  The order we received was basically, if you're not going to drive to the armories, make sure your not wearing your webbing.  So on the TTC, or walking down the street, it was forbidden.  I'm pretty sure about 90% of the troops made sure that they "didn't hear" about that though.


----------



## Bograt (10 Nov 2004)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> If you meet someone who says they're from Newfoundland, but can't tell you what Beaumont Hamel is - they're lying.
> 
> Some feel tiny Newfoundland never recovered.   While they sent artillerymen over in World War Two, never again have they sent a formed unit of infantry out on operations.



There are two remembrancedays in Newfoundland. November 11th, and July 1st. The sacrifice made during the first and second world war was tremendous. Two generations of men were lost as was eventually Englands first colony. There are a number of historians who have concluded that Newfoundland's dire economic situation since confederation is directly attributed to the loss of skill and human resources caused by the two great wars. It is especially troubling when CFAs (come from aways) tell "Newfie jokes." Considering the character of those men and what they did, you can appreciate why some would get their backs up.

The sacrifices made during the first and second wold war are not dusty words in a book, but rather rather visible monuments without which we wouldn't be able to live normal lives. Many the provincial ferries are named after battles fought(Gallipoli, Beaumont Hamel, the Caribou etc...)

Memorial University, my alma motter is so named so we never forget.

I was in far Eastern Poland a couple years ago and I was staying in a small bed and breakfast. I met two Polish veterans from the second wold war. We sat and talked. Sharing our own history and experience- getting drunk on Polish Lemon Grass vodka- and lamenting the Brits and what they did to us.


Now when I was a young man I carried me pack
And I lived the free life of the rover.
From the Murray's green basin to the dusty outback,
Well, I waltzed my Matilda all over.
Then in 1915, my country said, "Son,
It's time you stop ramblin', there's work to be done."
So they gave me a tin hat, and they gave me a gun,
And they marched me away to the war. 

And the band played "Waltzing Matilda,"
As the ship pulled away from the quay,
And amidst all the cheers, the flag waving, and tears,
We sailed off for Gallipoli.
And how well I remember that terrible day,
How our blood stained the sand and the water;
And of how in that hell that they call Suvla Bay
We were butchered like lambs at the slaughter.
Johnny Turk, he was waitin', he primed himself well;
He showered us with bullets, and he rained us with shell --
And in five minutes flat, he'd blown us all to hell,
Nearly blew us right back to Australia. 
But the band played "Waltzing Matilda,"
When we stopped to bury our slain,
Well, we buried ours, and the Turks buried theirs,
Then we started all over again.
And those that were left, well, we tried to survive
In that mad world of blood, death and fire.
And for ten weary weeks I kept myself alive
Though around me the corpses piled higher.
Then a big Turkish shell knocked me arse over head,
And when I woke up in me hospital bed
And saw what it had done, well, I wished I was dead --
Never knew there was worse things than dying. 
For I'll go no more "Waltzing Matilda,"
All around the green bush far and free --
To hump tents and pegs, a man needs both legs,
No more "Waltzing Matilda" for me.
So they gathered the crippled, the wounded, the maimed,
And they shipped us back home to Australia.
The armless, the legless, the blind, the insane,
Those proud wounded heroes of Suvla.
And as our ship sailed into Circular Quay,
I looked at the place where me legs used to be,
And thanked Christ there was nobody waiting for me,
To grieve, to mourn and to pity. 
But the band played "Waltzing Matilda,"
As they carried us down the gangway,
But nobody cheered, they just stood and stared,
Then they turned all their faces away.
And so now every April, I sit on my porch
And I watch the parade pass before me.
And I see my old comrades, how proudly they march,
Reviving old dreams of past glory,
And the old men march slowly, all bones stiff and sore,
They're tired old heroes from a forgotten war
And the young people ask "What are they marching for?"
And I ask meself the same question. 
But the band plays "Waltzing Matilda,"
And the old men still answer the call,
But as year follows year, more old men disappear
Someday, no one will march there at all.
Waltzing Matilda, waltzing Matilda.
Who'll come a-waltzing Matilda with me?
And their ghosts may be heard as they march by the billabong,
Who'll come a-Waltzing Matilda with me?


----------



## Danjanou (10 Nov 2004)

Bograt Memorial is my alma matter too. Believe it or not while serving with the Regiment and going there, I was actually briefly a member of the MUSE staff. Someone found out   I was doing editorial cartoons for the Evening Telegram and one of the granola brigade not knowing of my military ties asked me to join the MUSE and do "free" cartoons for them.

Well that exercise lasted about a week. Cruise missile testing in Alberta was going on and naturally the MUSE was against it, so they came out with an editorial and I was told to draw the cartoon. They really did not expect a pro cruise missile cartoon I guess > >

About then they discovered I was one of those "warmongering, facist, chauvinist, racist, baby burners" that hung out in the TSC.

BTW Michael while I can usually count the number of mistakes you make her on the fingers of one hand and still have enough left over to type, this time I got ya. The Royal Newfoundland Regiment was actually granted their Royal Prefix in 1917 for their actions at Cambrai by King George V. The only Empire and/or Commonwealth Regiment to be so honoured in this manner while still engaged in hostilities.

They also suffered the most casualties of any unit on July 1st 1916. Only 65 men answered roll call that evening.


----------



## jswift872 (10 Nov 2004)

Well here in Halifax during BMQ we got mooned by a few teens during PT one morning. It was quite funny, and on the same day we were running around the commons and people leaned out of their cars and yelled really loud "you bunch of army fag$" it was rather amusing to witness ignorance at it's best.


----------



## slowmode (21 Feb 2008)

Well I was going to start a new topic but I found this one and thought I would start it up against instead of spamming and creating more.

So ya where do I start, I've had both good and bad experiences while being in uniform infront of civies

Let me start off by saying i'm in my last year off High School and i've been in the reserves for a year and a bit. So I must say its hard being in a school environment when people know your in the reserves. A lot of the topics that come up in school are "should we stay in Afghanistan" and I always give my opinion and i've had people call me baby killer, tax waster, and what not. And its sad because even the teachers tell the children how the military is pointless and what not. A lot of people think i'm really violent *funny because i'm never hit anyone in my life* and that i'm a ruthless killer because I want to serve in Afghanistan. 

Another instance is when I was walking on redeau street and some teenagers went "Ten-Hut" over and over again..of course I just kept walking. But living in Ottawa I must say vastly people do understand the military..except when i'm called a cadet.

oh and I love the "OH ARE U GOING TO IRAQ"..when were not even in iraq


----------



## catalyst (21 Feb 2008)

I've got a mixed reaction travelling in Montreal (in Kelowna it was more like wtf...because nobody sees military types around)....I've had a few people yell at me, a few laugh. The thing is I really never know what they're saying. I mostly travel in DEU...and its definately a different response than when I took the bus/metro in Cadpat.


----------



## Flip (21 Feb 2008)

As a civilian I regret that you would be treated that way.

The military is a public service like the Police, Fire Dept and even teachers.
Teachers who suggest that the military deserves less respect than other public
servants simply do not know what they are talking about.
By all means, tell any teacher like this to read a book..... ;D

Anyone who wears their countrys uniform deserves respect.
Anyone who wears THIS country's uniform deserves alot of respect.
And many Canadians agree.

Please, don't let the ill-informed get you down.


----------



## appletreecdn (21 Feb 2008)

I think ignorant people will always be there and in every society.  They can be ignorant toward the military, immigrants, other issues, etc.  I'm not in the military yet but I have always had a lot of respect to members of the armed forces regardless of their original motive in joining (some could be selfless service to the country others could be...etc) and regardless of whether I agree with the current course of military action or not. 

In the case of Canada (or perhaps big countries like Canada with pluralistic society), we are not doing too bad.  After all, we have not encountered for more than a generations, situations in which the survival of the entire country is at stake and the military saves the day and brings stability and order in the end.  There just isn't this overwhelming opportunity for the population to be immersed in the kind of atmosphere in which the military plays a positive role and can be appreciated.  In addition, being a pluralistic society, Canada is probably more immune to ignorant citizens than some more homogeneous countries.

All in all, ignorance stems from lack of information or disinformation or simply laziness to form informed opinions.  Perhaps, those in uniform should pity those civies making themselves targets of laughter or anger.


----------



## deedster (21 Feb 2008)

I feel like I should apologize here on behalf of all civilians, well not all, just those who conform to the antics you've described.  This is a group I happen to belong to (not for lack of trying not to  ).  Some of them have no clue and the rest of them are just plain idiots.  You deserve thanks and respect.  My civvie 2 cents. 
D2


----------



## deedster (21 Feb 2008)

D Squared said:
			
		

> I feel like I should apologize here on behalf of all civilians, well not all, just those who conform to the antics you've described.  This is a group I happen to belong to (not for lack of trying not to  ).  Some of them have no clue and the rest of them are just plain idiots.  You deserve thanks and respect.  My civvie 2 cents.
> D2


I meant the civvie group, not the idiots  ;D


----------



## ModlrMike (21 Feb 2008)

The next time you get this kind of grief in the classroom, ask everybody to stand up. Then ask all the women to sit down. Then those who want to be lawyers, doctors, teachers, journalists etc. Ask those who immigrated to Canada to sit down. Keep going until only one or two people are standing. Point out that these are the only ones who don't benefit from having a military.


----------



## appletreecdn (21 Feb 2008)

D Squared said:
			
		

> I meant the civvie group, not the idiots  ;D



Hopefully, there aren't too many idiots.  ;D


----------



## deedster (21 Feb 2008)

appletreecdn said:
			
		

> Hopefully, there aren't too many idiots.  ;D


From your mouth to God's ears apple!


----------



## Panzer Grenadier (21 Feb 2008)

I've never been called "baby killer" or been told to "get out of Iraq".  Maybe its my rugged good looks or I've just been lucky not to have run ins with these people.


----------



## Dissident (21 Feb 2008)

Meh. Whenever I get the Hippy vibe from someone and we start going down the whole "get Canada out of Iraq" thing, I just ask them if they want the Canadian army out of Iraq? Then I just do the "(I dream of)Jeannie" crossed arms and head nod and say: Done!


----------



## Mike Baker (21 Feb 2008)

I hate the Ignorant versions of what I am (Civie). Even yesterday, I had to explain to my class (of 6), that we are not in face in Iraq, and then that we are not doing Americas work because they are too lazy, and that we are not in Afghanistan for their oil, and that we are in there to make the lives of the Afghan people better. Needless to say, my NDP of a teacher was afraid to make any comment on her beliefs, so I must have done something good on my part ;D 




			
				ModlrMike said:
			
		

> The next time you get this kind of grief in the classroom, ask everybody to stand up. Then ask all the women to sit down. Then those who want to be lawyers, doctors, teachers, journalists etc. Ask those who immigrated to Canada to sit down. Keep going until only one or two people are standing. Point out that these are the only ones who don't benefit from having a military.


I thank you. I will use this next time ;D


----------



## Sig_Des (21 Feb 2008)

slowmode said:
			
		

> Well I was going to start a new topic but I found this one and thought I would start it up against instead of spamming and creating more.
> 
> So ya where do I start, I've had both good and bad experiences while being in uniform infront of civies
> 
> Let me start off by saying i'm in my last year off High School and i've been in the reserves for a year and a bit. So I must say its hard being in a school environment when people know your in the reserves.



Just out of Curiosity, what HS do you go to?


----------



## Korporaal (21 Feb 2008)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> The next time you get this kind of grief in the classroom, ask everybody to stand up. Then ask all the women to sit down. Then those who want to be lawyers, doctors, teachers, journalists etc. Ask those who immigrated to Canada to sit down. Keep going until only one or two people are standing. Point out that these are the only ones who don't benefit from having a military.



Ah , just thought I would mention that some of us are immigrants ...and we serve our new home and country in the military , in fact NONE of my friends all Canadian born and bred, serve Canada in uniform at present or have done so in the past, except one who is a police officer, yet they have received all the benefits and advantages bestowed upon them by virtue of there birth.

The regiment that I`m part of has quite a few immigrants in fact.

Love the comebacks though.


----------



## Korporaal (21 Feb 2008)

What comebacks (funny or serious) have you used with stupid civilian comments.

I thought I would start a thread dedicated to this subject as there must be quite a few gems out there that can be used .


----------



## foo32 (21 Feb 2008)

That would kind of depend on what the civilian in question said, who they were, and the circumstances... (perhaps you could elaborate?)


----------



## Disenchantedsailor (21 Feb 2008)

About a year ago after coming out of a CBC sponsored childs activity, Curios George or something like that, the local granola eating hippies had a protest in downtown Victoria. Signs saying "out of Iraq" and a borrowed phrase from another US war "make love not war" your typical hippy garbage. So my 5 year old hollars out, read a newspaper we're not even in Iraq.  words of a babe I swear.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (22 Feb 2008)

Korporaal said:
			
		

> What comebacks (funny or serious) have you used with stupid civilian comments.
> 
> I thought I would start a thread dedicated to this subject as there must be quite a few gems out there that can be used .



I was in the subway in Toronto in uniform one day and a few yobos were beaking off to me.  I turned on them and said "if you aren't going to respect the uniform, you might want to respect the fact that I am big enough and mean enough to rip off your fucking arm and beat you to death with the soggy end".  They fled.


----------



## Sig_Des (22 Feb 2008)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> I turned on them and said "if you aren't going to respect the uniform, you might want to respect the fact that I am big enough and mean enough to rip off your ******* arm and beat you to death with the soggy end".



He really is too!

I've gotten to the point where I pretty much just shake my head and keep walking.

Thankfully, I just don't seem to get as much of the idiots here in Edmonton that I did in Ottawa...go figure.


----------



## benny88 (22 Feb 2008)

Actually, I'm at civvy-U on a fairly liberal campus (Uni of Western Ontario) and I have gotten fairly positive feedback. My ULO (university liason officer) even asked me to wear a black civvy backpack with the tri-force and recruiting phone #'s and website on it. There was an article in the campus newspaper on Remembrance Day about some OCdts on campus who felt out of the loop on campus, but on closer examination, 2 of the 3 in the article were ones with previous NCM service who were @ university in their 30's, which I feel like explains why they felt alienated from student culture (not because they were in the CF, but because they were older [for lack of a better word]) I wrote back to the paper explaining how I psyched about the reception I got on campus being a member of the CF, because I was pleasantly suprised.


----------



## neilinkorea (22 Feb 2008)

I have read a few posts on this thread that compare CF members to other civil servants.  This is true, soldiers are paid by taxpayers through their government to do a job for them.  However, when is the last time you  heard a teacher claim that if they werent doing their job, that you wouldnt have the freedom to do yours, or express your views in public?  I have a healthy respect for the work done by military personel.  It is a difficult, stressful, and sometimes very dangerous job.  With that said, there are some self-righteous, martyr types in the ranks too.  An attitude of entitlement does not endear the public to the cause.  You are paid to do a job.  Do it and well and the recognition will come.  Remember, the goofs on the street pay you.  They are your boss.  Everyone gets a horrible boss once in a while.  Stay strong and know the next one will be better.
I think the people who shout horrible things at service members are first class  a**holes, but they still have the right to think a military is useless.  They do not have the right to assult and harrass the people who serve in the military, and I would love to see some of them prosecuted for those crimes.


----------



## PMedMoe (22 Feb 2008)

Not really a comeback, but my daughter always says "My Mom does wear Army boots!!"  ;D


----------



## meni0n (22 Feb 2008)

neilin, no the goofs on the street do not pay me. I am being paid by the Government of Canada. And they're certainly not my boss. If someone decided to say that they're my boss because they're paying me with their tax dollars, I haven't seen any cheques in the mail yet, but they're welcome to send some. I'd like to see these people say that to a cop when he pulls them over, see how well that goes over.


----------



## simysmom99 (22 Feb 2008)

I hate the old "your tax dollars at work" line.  The yahoos on the street don't pay my dh, or support me and my family on deployment.  They know nothing of the life that we lead and the work that our families do.  No one has the right to judge out loud what we do unless they are willing to walk in our shoes.  There are many jobs that I couldn't imagine doing, like being a teacher, or working in retail again.  But thank God that people do want to do those jobs.


----------



## 211RadOp (22 Feb 2008)

neilinkorea said:
			
		

> ...  Remember, the goofs on the street pay you...



The "goofs" on the street may pay part of my wage through their taxes. Okay, that means that I pay about 20% of my own wage as that is what is deducted from my gross monthly entitlement for tax. So, does that make me my own boss?

(I have used this before as a line when someone claimed "I pay your salary!")


----------



## Sig_Des (22 Feb 2008)

neilinkorea said:
			
		

> Remember, the goofs on the street pay you.  They are your boss.  Everyone gets a horrible boss once in a while.  Stay strong and know the next one will be better.



Wrong. As pointed out by others, The Government pays me. I pay taxes too. Can you imagine the poo I'd be in if I told my boss "I pay my taxes. That makes me my boss. I gave me the day off."

Next time someone says "I pay taxes, that makes me your boss" Just reply with "Well, I pay taxes too, so today's on me"


----------



## appletreecdn (22 Feb 2008)

neilinkorea said:
			
		

> .....With that said, there are some self-righteous, martyr types in the ranks too......



I believe so.  Yet...doesn't this apply to every single group becuase the reality is that there simply isn't any social group whose members are 100% homogeneous.  



			
				neilinkorea said:
			
		

> .....Remember, the goofs on the street pay you.  They are your boss.....



Does this mean those in uniform pay for those goofs (through services provided by tax dollars) and therefore they are the goofs' bosses, too?  The 'I pay my taxes and the taxes pay you and therefore I pay you and am your boss' argument is a gross misinterpretation of the modern social contract binding us all one way or the other.


----------



## Penny (22 Feb 2008)

Last year, as I was returning to my apartment building from work, a tenant recognized me in my uniform and asked "How can you wear that crazy costume ?"
"Proudly" I answered.


----------



## Kat Stevens (22 Feb 2008)

"Pants first, then boots" would have been my answer.


----------



## xo31@711ret (23 Feb 2008)

'my taxes pay your salary!'....my reply: My umpteen years of sweat and vigilance ensures that any village idiot can freely make asinine comments like that. Usually leaves 'em speechless.


----------



## Penny (23 Feb 2008)

xo31@711ret said:
			
		

> My umpteen years of sweat and vigilance ensures that any village idiot can freely make asinine comments like that.



Good one.  LMAO!


----------



## Richie (23 Feb 2008)

Hello, my name is Richie and I'm a new member on this site; I have been lurking for a while and thought I would join in. I have no military connections or experience. 

As far as the public attitude towards the military goes, I think a lot of Canadians _do_ support the military; it's just that as Canadians, we're not comfortable approaching strangers and offering to shake their hand and thank them. I know that some of you folks in the military have had bad experiences with members of the public, but let's face it, there are idiots everywhere. Please don't judge all of us civilians based on the actions of a few NDP supporters or whatever.

Personally, I appreciate what you do, whether you're in Afghanistan or the Far North. You serve your country proudly and I thank all of you for that. You make me very proud to call myself Canadian!  

I try to keep up with military affairs partly out of interest and partly because I'm a taxpayer  so I hope that I can occasionally contribute some intelligent comments to ongoing discussions. I'm sure I'll ask questions that may sound basic to you, but then we're not in the same line of work so please bear with me.

Cheers,
Richie


----------



## TangoTwoBravo (23 Feb 2008)

benny88 said:
			
		

> Actually, I'm at civvy-U on a fairly liberal campus (Uni of Western Ontario) and I have gotten fairly positive feedback...I wrote back to the paper explaining how I psyched about the reception I got on campus being a member of the CF, because I was pleasantly suprised.



It has been 15 years or so since I went to UWO, but I don't know if I would call it a fairly liberal campus.  The greatest show of political activism was when Frosh Week was cut from six days to five.  I found that UWO was a fairly establishment-friendly place for a university (as compared to other Canadian schools).


----------



## benny88 (23 Feb 2008)

Tango2Bravo said:
			
		

> The greatest show of political activism was when Frosh Week was cut from six days to five.



 ;D

   Seen. But I think theres a difference between having liberal values and being politically active. Just because there aren't many demonstrations doesn't mean the people on campus don't have liberal views. I would say that all campuses are fairly liberal by definition, but I only have experience with a few, and those only in Ontario.


----------



## ENGINEERS WIFE (23 Feb 2008)

Having been a 'civie' all my life and first being introduced to anything military was back in the Wack and most of them being a Engineers, I think most, I mean, a few of them were drunk (gotta love the Jolly Miller)  But what can I say, they are a great bunch.  And now being married to a army guy I can see both sides.  Maybe not the 'idiot civie' part, but most just get their info from the news.  Not that I am making excuses, just making a point.  Now, when people say "I don't now why we are over there" or " I don't think we should be there, it's not our battle"  my standard reply is  " It's a good thing everyone DOESN'T think like you or we'd all be speaking Geman right now!!!!"  That usually shuts them down pretty quick.   Robin


----------



## Flip (23 Feb 2008)

> " It's a good thing everyone DOESN'T think like you or we'd all be speaking German right now!!!!"



Or perhaps only saying what we are allowed to say..... 

As one civvie to another - Welcome Ritchie.
Hope you learn as much as I have from these great people!


----------



## RTaylor (23 Feb 2008)

People are dicks no matter where you go. Some feel it's their right to be a dumbass, and I'm not one to stop them.

Back when I was a reservist people saw me in uniform and thought I was a complete death machine. And I'm not violent at all. I had people tell me that they were afraid of me, and these were the local tuff guys in the neighborhood.

Tales even stoll abound around some of the old towns I lived in about how I can shoot a mile with a rifle into somoene's eye, infiltrate and kill without a sound and kill a person with only 1 hit. It's hilarious...I've had some good times over these tall tales. 

And I have never talked about what I have done or what I was doing, people just love letting their imaginations run wild after watching Hamburger Hill, Saving Private Ryan, Sniper and so forth. It's not our fault that some look at us like monsters and others as heroes. It's media that does it.

The Armed Forces needs to put out more info to the public on all aspects...seems to me that they hide from the public and are shy about doing anything that would straighten out the facts.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (24 Feb 2008)

Richie said:
			
		

> Hello, my name is Richie and I'm a new member on this site; I have been lurking for a while and thought I would join in. I have no military connections or experience.
> 
> I try to keep up with military affairs partly out of interest and partly because I'm a taxpayer  so I hope that I can occasionally contribute some intelligent comments to ongoing discussions. I'm sure I'll ask questions that may sound basic to you, but then we're not in the same line of work so please bear with me.
> 
> ...



Welcome aboard Richie.  As my ultimate boss (ie a taxpayer) your views are as valid here as anyone else's.


----------



## Loachman (24 Feb 2008)

Richie said:
			
		

> it's just that as Canadians, we're not comfortable approaching strangers and offering to shake their hand and thank them.



And I'm not particularly comfortable being the recipient of that. While it's far preferable to a Nazi salute or something similar, I still find it a little embarrassing. I like what I do, I find it extremely satisfying, and I am well-paid. I do not think that I am anything special because of what I chose to do, though. I'd rather be treated no differently than anybody else.

A simple "hello" is nice, and I'll quite happily answer almost any question from a curious citizen.



			
				Richie said:
			
		

> I know that some of you folks in the military have had bad experiences with members of the public, but let's face it, there are idiots everywhere.



Don't worry. Most of us are well aware of that. We have our share as well, as you may have/will notice(d).



			
				Richie said:
			
		

> Please don't judge all of us civilians based on the actions of a few NDP supporters or whatever.



I don't think that too many do, and anybody that does is merely acting in the same way as those whom they complain about. We interact with far more civilians than most civilians do with us.



			
				Richie said:
			
		

> I'm sure I'll ask questions that may sound basic to you, but then we're not in the same line of work so please bear with me.



Feel free - but as a Mod I have to mention the Search Function...


----------



## dimsum (24 Feb 2008)

Tango2Bravo said:
			
		

> I found that UWO was a fairly establishment-friendly place for a university (as compared to other Canadian schools).



Completely agree.  I'm sure that most students in UWO would be surprised (pleasantly or unpleasantly is up for grabs) that for a while, perhaps still now, the head of the USC was an ex-RCR Major.  Wouldn't surprise me that other people in admin are ex-military as well...London's an old Army town.  

When I was at UWO, I helped out in the Remembrance Week events (and was commissioner for a year) and had nothing but support from the student population.  And free drinks.   ;D


----------



## Richie (24 Feb 2008)

Thank you for the welcome. I appreciate it  

Why do a minority of Canadians look down on our military? Perhaps it's just the result of fifty or so years' of Pearsonian peacekeeping. If politicians keep saying that Canadian soldiers are "peace keepers" year after year, eventually it just becomes a mantra that lulls the public to sleep. 

I think as well, that there is a dearth of knowledge about this nation's history; a lot of people out there don't even know when World War II started, let alone the role Canada played in liberating Europe. For a long time, it was simply considered politically incorrect to teach Canadian history in public schools: our role in the Boer War, WWI, WWII and Korea. I don't know if this has changed or not.

Another factor I can see at work is good old-fashioned anti-Americanism amongst certain segments of the Canadian public. This knee-jerk anti-Americanism has become associated with an aversion to all things military and our military has become a convenient target for self-righteous comments and insults.

Just some more thoughts on the topic. As I said, I think we're dealing with a very vocal and a very rude minority; most Canadians support the military, but we are a reserved people by nature.


----------



## Loachman (24 Feb 2008)

Richie said:
			
		

> This knee-jerk anti-Americanism



This is the equivalent of penis envy on a national level - small-minded, small-dicked people.


----------



## aesop081 (24 Feb 2008)

For some people, being Canadian means being anti-american

 :


----------



## Yrys (24 Feb 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> For some people, being Canadian means being anti-american



Francophones journalists, when speaking about how to define "being  Canadian",
are saying that for a lot of people it can be resuming to "I'm not American".
Didn't saw that in English newspapers.


----------



## George Wallace (24 Feb 2008)

Richie said:
			
		

> Why do a minority of Canadians look down on our military? Perhaps it's just the result of fifty or so years' of Pearsonian peacekeeping. If politicians keep saying that Canadian soldiers are "peace keepers" year after year, eventually it just becomes a mantra that lulls the public to sleep.



There are a few very good reasons for that.  The Vietnam War saw many Anti-War Protesters and Draft Dodgers move north and settle in Canada.  Then we have had a large influx of Refugees from Vietnam and many other Third World Countries, who came here escaping brutal Military Regimes.  Add to this the fact that in the Seventies and Eighties the Liberal Government closed down immigration from European and Commonwealth countries in favour of many of those Third World countries.  Now we have a large number of people in Canada who have perceptions of all militaries being the same and all having "brutal" philosophies behind them.   These people in the end tar the Canadian Military with the same broad brush as the military of some Third World Despot.


----------



## joonrooj (24 Feb 2008)

Best thing I've had said to me/to unit:
On BFT, family bikes by, father slows down: "Thank you for doing what you do."

Annoying thing: 
Marching to Regimental church (a few blocks away from armouries), kids biking by start humming Imperial March

Uninformed thing:
"How many times have you been to Iraq?"
"Um. none, CDNs arent in Iraq."
"yes they are, I just saw it on the news."

**edited for spelling


----------



## aesop081 (24 Feb 2008)

Joonrooj said:
			
		

> Uniformed thing:
> "How many times have you been to Iraq?"
> "Um. none, CDNs arent in Iraq."
> "yes they are, I just saw it on the news."



Not too long ago, the CBC was doing a story on Iraq and showed footage of Canadian troops in Afghanistan at the same time, so i cant blame those civvies there.


----------



## CdnArtyWife (25 Feb 2008)

When my hubster was training for deployment on TF 1-07, my sister mentioned to me about how worried she was for his safety...and as a result her worry for the well-being of our family.

I tried to explain in layman's terms what his job with the task force actually was, and how he was relatively safe since he'd be a "hescoe hobbit" and not leave KAF. 

She gave me alot of resistence and tried to tell me that the army was just telling us that, and that he'd really be out on the front lines and on "death's doorstep" so to speak.

I couldn't believe that she honestly thought that the Canadian Government and subsequently the military was involved in such high level conspiracy that they'd be lying to their own soldiers as to what their jobs/roles were and why we were in Afghanistan in the first place.

I asked her if she thought all the vets that come home were brainwashed or had their memory erased so as not to "leak the truth" to those going over to replace them.

I was incredulous at the fact that, as a civilian who reads the newspaper, she thought she had more info on the what/why of Afghanistan than my husband and I who, essentially, were in the thick of it and closer connections to the news sources than she did.

THIS is the sort of ignorance that I find annoying. Though I know her questions were based out of concern for me and my family, it actually made me cut off most of the contact with family while my husband served his tour. It was more stressful for me to field questions and comments like these than it was to deal with being a solo parent for six months.

Just sayin'

Regards,

CAW


----------



## Kat Stevens (25 Feb 2008)

That's nothing new... When I was posted to Germany in 88, all my in-laws were convinced that there was a Red Brigade cell lurking behind every mailbox, and I was taking their daughter and grandchildren into an undeclared combat zone.


----------



## infanteer-it (25 Feb 2008)

I've seen good and bad feedback from civies when in uniform. After reading some of the comebacks for the negative feedback I'll share one of my own...not funny but it gets the job done.

girl in bar: I don't approve of the military.
me: why not?
girl: <shrug>I just don't think we need one.
me: I see.... Let me ask you something. If you saw someone running down the street right next to us being chased by someone who wanted to hurt or kill him, you would want someone to stop them right?
girl: of course.
me: well who would do it?
girl: the police would do it.
me: I see... so now, what if that person was being chased two streets away and even though you couldn't see or hear it you knew it was still happening. would you still want someone to stop it?
girl: yeah of course I would.
me: would the police take care of that one too?
girl: yep.
me: Well... let me ask you now.... how far away does it have to be before you just don't give a shit anymore?
girl: uhh... uhh.... i never thought about it that way...

Just thought I'd share one that worked for me. 

Cheers!


----------



## TCBF (25 Feb 2008)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> That's nothing new... When I was posted to Germany in 88, all my in-laws were convinced that there was a Red Brigade cell lurking behind every mailbox, and I was taking their daughter and grandchildren into an undeclared combat zone.



- There was, and you were.

 8)

TCBF: Lahr 87 - 92.


----------



## infamous_p (25 Feb 2008)

infanteer-it said:
			
		

> I've seen good and bad feedback from civies when in uniform. After reading some of the comebacks for the negative feedback I'll share one of my own...not funny but it gets the job done.
> 
> girl in bar: I don't approve of the military.
> me: why not?
> ...



Clever


----------



## Southern Boy (25 Feb 2008)

What's the problem here? You can eat your buttons. The thing is they are very hard to chew and swallowing can lead to choking. The biggest problem is the fact that you can't do up your shirt afterwards, and then you get cold. I had a friend of a friend who ate his buttons once because he was hungry, but then the QM made him pay for the shirt when he tried to exchange it! You just can't win.                 BTW, is it also true that there CD medal is actually a gold-foil wrapped chocolate you can munch on if you get hungry while on parade??


----------



## Loachman (25 Feb 2008)

Southern Boy said:
			
		

> What's the problem here? You can eat your buttons. The thing is they are very hard to chew and swallowing can lead to choking. The biggest problem is the fact that you can't do up your shirt afterwards, and then you get cold. I had a friend of a friend who ate his buttons once because he was hungry, but then the QM made him pay for the shirt when he tried to exchange it! You just can't win.                 BTW, is it also true that there CD medal is actually a gold-foil wrapped chocolate you can munch on if you get hungry while on parade??



Huh?


----------



## 211RadOp (25 Feb 2008)

I think it is a tongue and cheek method of showing how ignorant some people can be.

Goes along with how we get free food, accomodations, don't pay taxes, etc.


----------



## helpup (25 Feb 2008)

My experiences, dealing with Reserves in Halifax, to Regs starting in London, Petawawa, Ottawa, Gagetown/Freddytown is by the large good.  Most of the minor kids being stupid I have experienced, along with adults being ignorant.  And I mean the literal definition of ignorant.  They are lack the facts.  By and large though good comments, or innocent questions that over a 2-5 min conversation was answered by me,  usually leaving a Civi a bit more informed if not with a change of opinion.  Free coffee, hand shakes were about equal to anything that would be derogatory.  Yet by and large I found most people for or against really don't get the Canadian Military.  

For that we just need to look at the schools,  history is not what it use to be let alone anything that would bring up more then a passing comment about our country's involvement.  and it generally gets worded as that " our country's involvement in.......  Then along came Peacekeeping and we were no longer soldiers but Peacekeepers ( I still shudder at that term used as a noun).  Throw removal of a higher presence in most of our cities and you have a recipe for Civi's not having a clue.  Heck even living in London I a Dr. Father of a girl I dated asking with real suprise.  Canada has a Army?!?!  He was serious.  But that was more then 15 years ago, and even in the Dark Somalia days where in Pet/ Pembroke wives or soldiers were called baby killers by young and old ( some but not most thank God) 

Now though we are more in the public eye good or bad and I just look to those who show up for a Repat at Trenton, or line the Hwy to TO.
I dint have to respect someones belief to do my job.  But the moments I look at those who can/do care even if they don't know as much as what I think they should.  Those moments give me hope that for now at least Canadians get it.


----------



## slowmode (25 Feb 2008)

I think its more that people around Canada need to be educated more about the Military and what we do. Education is the key to everything


----------



## Loachman (25 Feb 2008)

For the last several years I've been participating in the Remebrance Day Speaker Programme, doing presentations in schools around the Toronto area. It's fun and satisfying, and provides kids and teachers with exactly the sort of education and exposure that they need.

See your PAffO for details.


----------



## hauger (25 Feb 2008)

A buddy of mine lost it one day on a guy....his response was so perfect I use it (softened and paraphrased) whenever this comes up:

Random Guy: "I pay your salary..."

My Buddy:  "Of course you do....I pay your salary....every time I buy gasoline or a tim hortons coffee or pay you to shovel my drive way I pay someones salary...that's how the f****** economy works, moron, we all pay each others salaries.  Live with it".

Random Guy: "........."

One thing I like to say to people is...Canada will always have a military.  Canada is too close to the US and has too many strategic points (arctic) not to have a military.  Canada might stop spending money and disband their military, but Canada will still have a military presence, it'll just end up being a military belonging to another country...and that'd suck since we wouldn't have a lot of say over what they choose to do.  Case in point, the US telling us to get our costal patrols in order, or they might end up doing costal patrols on "our behalf" whether we like it or not.  Another case in point.  We don't have much military coverage in the high arctic, but there sure is military up there...it just belongs to the US/Russia in the form of covert subs.


----------



## Loachman (25 Feb 2008)

hauger said:
			
		

> One thing I like to say to people is...Canada will always have a military.  Canada is too close to the US and has too many strategic points (arctic) not to have a military.  Canada might stop spending money and disband their military, but Canada will still have a military presence, it'll just end up being a military belonging to another country...and that'd suck since we wouldn't have a lot of say over what they choose to do.  Case in point, the US telling us to get our costal patrols in order, or they might end up doing costal patrols on "our behalf" whether we like it or not.  Another case in point.  We don't have much military coverage in the high arctic, but there sure is military up there...it just belongs to the US/Russia in the form of covert subs.



"Every nation has an army on its territory - its own, or somebody else's."

I cannot remember who said that, and I doubt that I have it word-for-word.


----------



## Gimpy (25 Feb 2008)

Loachman said:
			
		

> "Every nation has an army on its territory - its own, or somebody else's."
> 
> I cannot remember who said that, and I doubt that I have it word-for-word.



Well to be fair, there are a few micro-states and nations without a standing army such as many of the Pacific Island nations and most notably Costa Rica. But I do understand the quote, and I have a feeling that this quote was before the time of these Pacific Island nations and the Costa Rican de-militarization.


----------



## medaid (25 Feb 2008)

No standing 'army' in name, but the Guardia Civil performs that duty. They may not be called the military, or the army, or what ever, but their areas of responsibilities include those of their army predecessors. I call that a standing military, regardless of what they want to call it.


----------



## Gimpy (25 Feb 2008)

MedTech said:
			
		

> No standing 'army' in name, but the Guardia Civil performs that duty. They may not be called the military, or the army, or what ever, but their areas of responsibilities include those of their army predecessors. I call that a standing military, regardless of what they want to call it.



What you want to call it isn't what their constitution calls it, wherein they specifically outlaw a standing army. Anyways a standing army is comprised of full-time professional soldiers, which the Guardia Civil are not seeing as they are also a municipal police force. Members of the CF don't stop military duties when they are finished with operations, they work day-in and day-out as soldiers. Guardia Civil work as soldiers when needed and full-time police the rest of the time, hence not a standing army in any sense of the word.

Either way this is just arguing semantics which will most likely lead nowhere as its all relative. So back on topic of ignorant civilians.


----------



## aesop081 (25 Feb 2008)

getting farther and fatrther away from that track we were on...........

milnet staff-type guy


----------



## benny88 (25 Feb 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> getting farther and fatrther away from that track we were on...........
> 
> milnet staff-type guy



     I'm on it! Uhhh....damn civvies!


----------



## joonrooj (25 Feb 2008)

infanteer-it said:
			
		

> I've seen good and bad feedback from civies when in uniform. After reading some of the comebacks for the negative feedback I'll share one of my own...not funny but it gets the job done.
> 
> girl in bar: I don't approve of the military.
> me: why not?
> ...


That is awesome.
High Five.


----------



## pteosborne (25 Feb 2008)

The best I've heard in my short career is my buddy's (whos airforce) wife saying we shouldnt be in Iraq.  ??? 
..and shes married to the military!!! Oh well, ignorance is bliss, I guess.  :blotto:


----------



## neilinkorea (26 Feb 2008)

hauger said:
			
		

> A buddy of mine lost it one day on a guy....his response was so perfect I use it (softened and paraphrased) whenever this comes up:
> 
> Random Guy: "I pay your salary..."
> 
> ...



That is like comparing apples and oranges.  If you choose not to buy a coffee from Tims, you can't be put in prison for it.  Try telling Revenue Canada that you have decided not to pay your taxes this year.  My point was not that the public"owns" service members and has the right to treat them as they wish, it was that the armed forces serves the public at the publics pleasure.  Now all of the arguments that soldiers work for the government not the people are symbolic of the root problem.  In a democracy, seperating the "people" and "the government" into seperate entities is dangerous.  We have been so sheltered and safe and prosperous we forget that our style of government is based on the fact that the power of government lies in the hands of the average citizen and we must protect that at all costs.  If we were more "possessive" of our government, maybe we would feel more of a connection to the departments under that governments control eg DND.  

One final thought about this topic.  Painting civilians in general as  ignorant and unsupportive of the military, based on the actions of a few, is like saying Canadian soldiers are all murderous animals because of the actions of a few in Somalia.


----------



## appletreecdn (26 Feb 2008)

neilinkorea said:
			
		

> That is like comparing apples and oranges.  If you choose not to buy a coffee from Tims, you can't be put in prison for it.  Try telling Revenue Canada that you have decided not to pay your taxes this year.  My point was not that the public"owns" service members and has the right to treat them as they wish, it was that the armed forces serves the public at the publics pleasure.  Now all of the arguments that soldiers work for the government not the people are symbolic of the root problem.  In a democracy, seperating the "people" and "the government" into seperate entities is dangerous.  We have been so sheltered and safe and prosperous we forget that our style of government is based on the fact that the power of government lies in the hands of the average citizen and we must protect that at all costs.  If we were more "possessive" of our government, maybe we would feel more of a connection to the departments under that governments control eg DND.
> 
> One final thought about this topic.  Painting civilians in general as  ignorant and unsupportive of the military, based on the actions of a few, is like saying Canadian soldiers are all murderous animals because of the actions of a few in Somalia.



Hope I can say this without getting too much into all those poli sci stuff

In a modern liberal democracy like Canada, 'government for the people of the people by the people' is there to provide for common defense, to promote commerce and to provide a more tranquil society.  (Yes...those words can be seen in the US Constitution and those of many other countries.)  The powers does NOT lie in the hands of the average citizens.  Average citizens authorize/give mandate to the government (chosen from among the people to serve the people) to wield those powers.  In other words, the average citizens agree to be governed by the government but they are not the government themselves.  Hence, the military DOES INDEED serves the people but doing so through the government.  For what purpose?  To provide for common protection (in a simple sense from external and internal enemies).  So what really needs protection at all cost is 1. the government of the people by the people shall not perish against the will of the people 2. the people's right and ability to authorize and give mandate to choose from amongst themselves those that will lead and govern and to lead and govern.  

Hence, whether people or government are separable entities is irrelevant.  The government is a political entity 'manned' by members of 'the people'.  

So....should someone be disrespectful to a soldier (which is more often the case in Canada)...NO...unless the soldier is 'conduct unbecoming of a soldier'.  

Lastly....this thread started out as more of a personal experience thing and I don't recall seeing someone making the generalization that all civilians are ignorant or something along the line that civilians are generally ignorant and unsupportive of the military.  

Perhaps such an argument should be put in another thread.


----------



## MARS (27 Feb 2008)

> I don't recall seeing someone making the generalization that all *civilians* are *ignorant *



No one here is doing that, rather, I think neilinkorea might have been making reference to the title of the thread....


----------



## Richie (28 Feb 2008)

I'm not sure I like the idea of civilians considering themselves the boss of the military any more than I would approve of a situation in which the military felt it had the right to intervene in political affairs. You folks were all civilians before you joined the military, when you joined up you swore some sort of oath to protect Canada. That Canada includes (so far) freedom of speech, freedom of assembly and all of the other freedoms central to any Western democracy. It is primarily these freedoms which you are protecting; not the government and not even the people (although you do obviously provide us civvies with physical protection from terrorism or invasion). The idea of serving to protect ideas is more abstract than that of protecting territorial integrity but it is certainly no less valid.

Richie


----------



## ryananderson (12 Mar 2008)

I think the fact that most "civilians" watch tv and get their facts from the media doesn't help the fact that they are so ignorant....lighten up...no one is forcing you to fight but I certainly respect the fact that you do, and as long as it's doing good for the world then it's ok by me.... I don't agree with what most of the American's are there for, which is purely to kill people, where we are there to help, so I commend you boys and girls!

Thanks!


----------



## Sig_Des (12 Mar 2008)

ryananderson said:
			
		

> I think the fact that most "civilians" watch tv and get their facts from the media doesn't help the fact that they are so ignorant....lighten up...no one is forcing you to fight but I certainly respect the fact that you do, and as long as it's doing good for the world then it's ok by me.... *I don't agree with what most of the American's are there for, which is purely to kill people*, where we are there to help, so I commend you boys and girls!



Well, in the same statement where you state why you believe most civilians are ignorant, you go and make a statement that shouts ignorance.

Some of us have worked with Americans in theater, and many of our soldiers owe them their lives. I'd avoid making statements when you have nothing to back them up. That is ignorance.


----------



## ryananderson (12 Mar 2008)

I never said I wasn't ignorant...


----------



## medaid (12 Mar 2008)

Some of the people that I have high respect and regards for are Americans....

tread carefully, ignorance or not.


----------



## ryananderson (12 Mar 2008)

It's not my fault that I have talked to war vet's from America and they seem to just brag about the kills, not about how much they actually "helped".

Sorry for my ignorance.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon (12 Mar 2008)

ryananderson said:
			
		

> It's not my fault that I have talked to war vet's from America and they seem to just brag about the kills, not about how much they actually "helped".
> 
> Sorry for my ignorance.



I know plenty of vets from the US and I have never met any that bragged about their kills so I call BS on your story. If anything they prefer not to talk about it or forget it entirely.


----------



## medaid (12 Mar 2008)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> I know plenty of vets from the US and I have never met any that bragged about their kills so I call BS on your story. If anything they prefer not to talk about it or forget it entirely.



Neither have I... there's allot of dark humor in conversations between us and them, but I have yet to hear a guy brag about their kills. If they talk about it it's only because of training value or purposes. The professional ones keep these things to themselves.


----------



## NovaScotiaNewfie (12 Mar 2008)

I wonder if some people forget...


"It's the Soldier, not the reporter, 

who has given us freedom of the press. 

It's the Soldier, not the poet, 

who has given us freedom of speech. 

It's the Soldier, not the campus organizer, 

who has given us freedom to demonstrate. 

It's the Soldier, not the lawyer, 

who has given us the right to a fair trail. 

And it's the Soldier who salutes the flag, 

who serves the flag, 

whose coffin is draped in the flag, 

that allows the protester to burn the flag" 


I guess in short, it's the men and women tha serve the country and all Canadians and have paid/will continue to pay in blood so they can be a-holes. Maybe if they thought about what it means to serve, to give of yourself and become part of something bigger then yourself.

I wonder if we had more military documentaries/shows like Truth, Duty, Valor etc would more folks get even a somewhat basic idea of the CF?

To the folks who ask is the uniform, CADPAT or Dress Uniform is a costume..I'd say..do you ask a Police Officer, RCMP or Municipal if what they are wearing is a costume..or better yet..if their side arm is real.

BTW good job with the info on the Royal Newfoundland Regiment . Always great to share the knowledge/history of what Newfoundland and her sons and daughters paid on that day.


----------



## NovaScotiaNewfie (12 Mar 2008)

Do some of those questions like can you take your own pistol on a tour etc...make you as upset as some of those civi question/stereotypes?

Oh and by the way...just wanted to say thanks for being patient and polite when it comes to discussions..sites like you tube etc...where they have video of military always end up starting "fights". You get one person saying Military Y is better then Military Z or A's SPEC OPS is better then B's....but more then likely it's more of the video game veterans or folks that have never served...at least here folks try to teach and educate those who visit and do in a grown up mature and professional manner IE) Act like Soldiers, Sailors and Air men and women, and for our USMC/Royal Marine friends that might be members here Marines.


----------



## NovaScotiaNewfie (12 Mar 2008)

"It's not my fault that I have talked to war vet's from America and they seem to just brag about the kills, not about how much they actually "helped".

Sorry for my ignorance."

You're entitled to your beliefs but to come in and make a statement like that, you should have realized that some people are going to take offence to it. Since the US Military and CF train, and operate together, a statement like that is not going to go over well on a military forum.

I'm not trying to bash you, just to say that this is not the place to make such a statement.


----------



## Richie (12 Mar 2008)

ryananderson said:
			
		

> .... I don't agree with what most of the American's are there for, which is purely to kill people, where we are there to help, so I commend you boys and girls!
> 
> Thanks!



As a fellow civilian, I'll say what everyone else on this thread is tiptoeing around: your _are_ ignorant _and_ condescending. I lived in North Carolina for two years and met lots of people who had served in the U.S. military and none of them bragged about their military exploits. If nothing else, their experiences in some of the world's less desirable locations gave them a better appreciation of what we have here in North America and why we have it.

Sounds to me like you suffer from the typical knee-jerk anti-Americanism that so many of my fellow countrymen are afflicted with. Lighten up! The U.S. is not a "Great Satan". 

And please don't call the members of our military "boys and girls"; they're just men and women doing a job. Try to at least give them that much respect.

Richie


----------



## X-mo-1979 (12 Mar 2008)

I know army wifes who don't know anything about what their Husbands do.Asked one what trade her husband was and she told me he did something with big tanks.Found out later he was a LCIS tech posted to a service batallion.

Just getting back from Texas I can honestly say they were the most receptive people I have ever seen when it comes to military.I was thanked at least 10 times for my service.


----------



## retiredgrunt45 (13 Mar 2008)

Ignorant civilians don't bother me anymore, once upon a time they used to, but no more. It really doesn't matter how you explain what you do or did in the military, they will never understand unless they've been in the uniform. It's like expalining to a bus driver how to be and astronaut, doesn't compute. 

Now that i'm a civilian myself, I usually have a good chuckle when I hear someone say what a bad day they had at work. 

So don't get to bent up about when some civilian starts spouting of at the mouth about something he can't even imagine about, instead have a good chuckle knowing he looks and sounds like a total retard. 

I like to think there are more people who will try to understand than those who will just come of as ignorant jackasses.


----------



## leroi (13 Mar 2008)

As a civilian it saddens me deeply to hear your many stories of rude, insensitive, treatment in Canada, by fellow Canadian civilians. I'm appalled and shocked at the same time.  I thank you all for doing a wonderful job protecting our interests. It breaks my heart every time I read about another soldier's death.

I offer the following observations to perhaps try to understand the incredible apathy, and yes, stupendous ignorance:

1) Historically, civilian life in Canada has been soft; geographically we have been sheltered; during WW 2 the only hardship my grandparents remember suffering was a short-lived, shortage of citrus fruit
2) I do blame the Canadian Press (and not to offend any CF personnel who've been comrade-in-arms with American military personnel) some of us Canadians are culturally tired of being bombarded with American content in our multimedia sources: i.e. What's front page news in Canada today? Answer: the latest American sex scandal. One of the reasons I love Army.ca is because I can actually get good information about  Canada and the world around me. Thank you for that.
3) Complacency and taking what we have for granted. I truly believe that civilian Canadians are going to be sorry for this one day. The wonderful freedom and peace that we enjoy in Canada is someting that many Canadians believe they are entitled to. That sense of entitlement is wrong--IMHO.  There is a price for everything on this planet.
4)My experience: I have a son who only just announced he wants to serve in the Canadian Forces; we don't come from a military family and this was a big shock for me but I supported him and I'm proud of him.  Sadly, these are some of my friends/families responses:  Is he mentally (you know) okay? Why would he want to do something stupid like that? Does he have a death-wish? And, I feel sorry for you (meaning _me _ his mom) ... So ... welcome to my small (minded?) white-collar civilian world. And thank you for graciously welcoming me to Army.ca.

At any rate,  while I'm proud of my son's decision, I can also empathize with some of the comments posted on this thread.  Much work needs to be done to wake the Canadian public from its slumber ... Please understand also that I am in no way critical of Americans--my beef is with news coverage in Canada ... my aim is to maintain Canadian autonomy ...

Let's try to get along, shall we ....?


----------



## TCBF (13 Mar 2008)

leroi,

Thank you for that fine post, and welcome to army.ca!


----------



## Ex-Dragoon (13 Mar 2008)

Piper calling ryan a tool is in contravention of the Guidelines I will give you time to edit your post. If you do not you will be placed on Warning.

Milnet.Ca Staff


----------



## JABAC (13 Mar 2008)

On the same line of the previous posts, I think that one of the most appalling ignorant attitudes of many Canadians today is anti-americanism in general.  We need to keep in mind that without the States as our main trading partner and ally, Canada wouldn't exist the way we do.  Anti-americanism makes Canadians look ignorant, selfish, and self-righteous.  I am proud that we have such strong connections with the States and it makes me sad and angry to hear people bad-mouthing them.  Although I know this attitude is not shared by all Canadians, the ones who do support them are a lot quieter about it...I hope these negative attitudes will begin to change within Canada.  I would be very proud and honoured to serve next to an American soldier.


----------



## Lune (13 Mar 2008)

I had to do a presentation on world issues for one of my classes. I chose the War in Afghanistan, specifically the list of facts from Ruxted about the good we've done there. At the beginning of the presentation, before I displayed the facts, I asked, "How many of you think we should be in Afghanistan?" Only one person raised their hand. During the presentation, this one girl spoke up, and said something along the lines of, "all the soldiers over there are uneducated, ignorant people who had no other choice but to join the army." Basically, people in the Army aren't intelligent enough to make it in the "real world." Then she went on and basically tried to imply that the facts were FAKE. She pointed out the facts about medical care and said it's only risen that much because we destroyed all their hospitals when the war started. I was dumbfounded by how misinformed she was.


----------



## Lumber (13 Mar 2008)

Lune said:
			
		

> I had to do a presentation on world issues for one of my classes. I chose the War in Afghanistan, specifically the list of facts from Ruxted about the good we've done there. At the beginning of the presentation, before I displayed the facts, I asked, "How many of you think we should be in Afghanistan?" Only one person raised their hand. During the presentation, this one girl spoke up, and said something along the lines of, "all the soldiers over there are uneducated, ignorant people who had no other choice but to join the army." Basically, people in the Army aren't intelligent enough to make it in the "real world." Then she went on and basically tried to imply that the facts were FAKE. She pointed out the facts about medical care and said it's only risen that much because we destroyed all their hospitals when the war started. I was dumbfounded by how misinformed she was.



What class was this for and at what school? (Just so I can get an idea of HER level of education)


----------



## ghyslyn (13 Mar 2008)

JABAC said:
			
		

> On the same line of the previous posts, I think that one of the most appalling ignorant attitudes of many Canadians today is anti-americanism in general.  We need to keep in mind that without the States as our main trading partner and ally, Canada wouldn't exist the way we do.  Anti-americanism makes Canadians look ignorant, selfish, and self-righteous.  I am proud that we have such strong connections with the States and it makes me sad and angry to hear people bad-mouthing them.  Although I know this attitude is not shared by all Canadians, the ones who do support them are a lot quieter about it...I hope these negative attitudes will begin to change within Canada.  I would be very proud and honoured to serve next to an American soldier.



I've recently come back from California, and I can understand the many many anti-American thoughts, while many are nice and polite, a good number are also ignorant, a man I had a conversation with was extremely nice, but I almost laughed when he asked me if I went to the University of Canada.

The worst I saw though was a man at the dollar store, after noticing that we were speaking in french, passed by us saying "excuse me american coming through". You might also want to note that he had ragged clothes and many bloody bandaids on his face.

But apart from that the people were generally very friendly and open-minded.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon (13 Mar 2008)

Piper thank you for your co-operation

Milnet.ca Staff.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (13 Mar 2008)

Seems that even people you grow up with turn on you when you don the uniform. 

I recently looked at my facebook this week and found a message from a long lost highschool friend. I was pretty excited because i hadn't heard from her in a few years and so I was eager to see what she had to say; all I say were 3 words :"fuck the army" written across the screen. 

I was pretty much dumbfounded and haven't really been able to fathom how to respond to such biting, but weak criticisms  ???


----------



## X-mo-1979 (13 Mar 2008)

Sheep, wolf's,and sheepdog comparrision is my favorite comebacks.


----------



## Yrys (13 Mar 2008)

rmc_wannabe said:
			
		

> I was pretty much dumbfounded and haven't really been able to fathom how to respond to such biting, but weak criticisms  ???



I would say wait before answering . Wait until it bits less or you know more how you would like to answer.

Winds from high school past are sometimes strange... I was asked last week if I knew about and was going to our 20th anniversary of 
high school graduation this may. A school where I was bullied each day, and was "reject no 2". I was flabbergast by the question,
and wait a few days before answering that I didn't have any reasons to go, but thank you for asking... but I could also have not respond.

Bottom line: answer is not an obligation.


----------



## George Wallace (13 Mar 2008)

rmc_wannabe said:
			
		

> Seems that even people you grow up with turn on you when you don the uniform.
> 
> I recently looked at my facebook this week and found a message from a long lost highschool friend. I was pretty excited because i hadn't heard from her in a few years and so I was eager to see what she had to say; all I say were 3 words :"fuck the army" written across the screen.
> 
> I was pretty much dumbfounded and haven't really been able to fathom how to respond to such biting, but weak criticisms  ???



You could ask her if she meant that to mean that she supported the soldiers in much the same way as women supported the French Foreign Legion in their brothels that followed the Legionnaires around the world?  

I am sure that this response, being a little creative and historic, may really baffle her mind.   ;D


----------



## rmc_wannabe (13 Mar 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> You could ask her if she meant that to mean that she supported the soldiers in much the same way as women supported the French Foreign Legion in their brothels that followed the Legionnaires around the world?
> 
> I am sure that this response, being a little creative and historic, may really baffle her mind.   ;D



Check and mate Mr. Wallace, check and mate :rofl:.


----------



## X-mo-1979 (13 Mar 2008)

Or if it's facebook leave a qucik note saying how much you miss her,and your really sorry for the herpes.


----------



## Lumber (13 Mar 2008)

rmc_wannabe use this this:



			
				infanteer-it said:
			
		

> I've seen good and bad feedback from civies when in uniform. After reading some of the comebacks for the negative feedback I'll share one of my own...not funny but it gets the job done.
> 
> girl in bar: I don't approve of the military.
> me: why not?
> ...



Cheers


----------



## neilinkorea (13 Mar 2008)

There are many people who don't know a lot about our armed forces and what they do.  So what?  The notion that many service members on this forum seem to feel that they are entitled to some sort of deference because they wear the uniform is more annoying to me than a civilian who doesn't know anything about the mission in Afghanistan.  The fact is that, in today's world, Canada's trading relationships, proximity to the US(physically and culturally), and our reluctance to get unilaterally involved in military operations do more than our armed forces do to provide territorial security to Canada.  This is lost on the "you have the right to burn that flag and live and breathe because of people like me" crowd.  I do acknowledge the role of the military in past conflicts and pay tribute to those lost lives and contributions of those who served.  Canada and Canadians have historically answered the call at war time, but have not been known to sustain large armies between conflicts.  We seem to look for the peace dividend rather quickly.  That is the choice of our civilian leadership.  

I do think that a military must be maintained and properly funded.  We don't think of the military until we need it.  If in that time the forces have been ignored, they will not be prepared to do the job we ask of them.  We can see this now with lack of strategic airlift, proper helicopters, enough soldiers, and vehicles to do the job in Afghanistan.  We are scrambling to get these things in theatre and many of them may not arrive until after the mission has been ended.  This is not how things should be done.  It costs us more money and lives in the long run.

I do think the military is an honorable profession.  Whining that you are not honored enough is dishonorable.


----------



## ryananderson (13 Mar 2008)

To all the people that are saying I'm ignorant and condescending because of my statements.....

Why do we only have what, 10 people in our Military Prison...whereas the states has Hundreds?  I know there force outnumber's ours greatly but it just seems to me (an outsider) that they have more fun killing people for some reason...

It might be the fact they are raised with gun's in their hands as part of their constitution...I don't know....

Call me ignorant or prove me wrong....I would rather be proven wrong personally and learn...but...whatever suits you!


----------



## ryananderson (13 Mar 2008)

Piper, I don't believe in God, or anything to that sort....but to say "We've got bible-thumpers here" is being very very hypocritical when you are trying to point your finger and call me "anti-american" where in fact I am not and have many American friends, and I really don't care if you believe that or not, call BS all day!  I could care less, if you can't take my opinion's then I don't know what else I can say to you!


----------



## medaid (13 Mar 2008)

neilinkorea said:
			
		

> This is lost on the "you have the right to burn that flag and live and breathe because of people like me" crowd.



How so?



			
				neilinkorea said:
			
		

> I do think the military is an honorable profession.  Whining that you are not honored enough is dishonorable.



Who is whining?


----------



## medaid (13 Mar 2008)

ryananderson said:
			
		

> To all the people that are saying I'm ignorant and condescending because of my statements.....



Because you are.



			
				ryananderson said:
			
		

> Why do we only have what, 10 people in our Military Prison...whereas the states has Hundreds?



In order to answer this, you must first understand the history and culture of the United States. You must understand the recruiting demography of the United States military and you must understand the place their military has amongst their people.

You also answered your own question, because their military is MUCH, MUCH larger which coincides with offence rates, and refer to the point above. This question is NOT easily answerable. 



			
				ryananderson said:
			
		

> I know there force outnumber's ours greatly but it just seems to me (an outsider) that they have more fun killing people for some reason...



It is THEIR not there, and outnumbers not outnumber's. Other then those two spelling and grammar corrections, I will say that your point is pretty ignorant. 



			
				ryananderson said:
			
		

> It might be the fact they are raised with gun's in their hands as part of their constitution...I don't know....



That's right YOU DON'T KNOW. There are many who are raised with firearms in their possession. How many farmers do we have? How many hunters do we have here in Canada? Not to mention the Inuit who are armed almost all the time, do THEY enjoy killing people?! That is also ignorant. 




			
				ryananderson said:
			
		

> Call me ignorant or prove me wrong....I would rather be proven wrong personally and learn...but...whatever suits you!



I can't prove you wrong on here. The reason for that is because you do not see. It's simple for me to say that the US military are honorable, and that their people are professionals just like us. They do NOT enjoy killing people and they're not all messed up because of their Constitution and their abilities to own or possess firearms. We have the same ability to do so, and many of us do own firearms. 

Your arguments are flawed and are childish. We have explained to you but you are unwilling to listen or rad with an open mind. You claim to have American friends, yet you don't seem like you know them at all. Could this be because your friends are like you, and oppose something they do not understand? Could they be the same people who cries for the pull-out of the military, protest the military, but does not take action politically? 

You are ignorant, and it seems to me you chose to remain so. If you truly want to understand then read. Read with an open mind and ask questions in a manner that is not judgmental or skeptical of what we have to say. Better yet, talk to your local reservists or reg force members. They're all over the place. Failing that, we are here.


----------



## ryananderson (13 Mar 2008)

Wow, other than just calling me ignorant you didn't really back up any of your points or even shed any light on any of my questions, except a few grammatical errors, good for you.

Thanks for trying to help me understand though, I do appreciate it!


----------



## ryananderson (13 Mar 2008)

And who said I opposed and protested the military?

You're just making things up now, come on.


----------



## neilinkorea (13 Mar 2008)

MedTech said:
			
		

> How so?



How so?  Anyone who believes that the only reason that we have free speech, freedom of assembly etc. is because of military personnel, probably doesn't  hold these others reasons for our relatively peaceful existence in very high regard.

Who is whining?


If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it just might be a duck.


----------



## ryananderson (13 Mar 2008)

One more, simple point on trigger happy American's.

School shootings, how many in Canada, how many in America?

Ok.  Sorry for making you think so hard.


----------



## PMedMoe (13 Mar 2008)

ryananderson said:
			
		

> they have more fun killing people for some reason...



Can you back up that statement?



			
				ryananderson said:
			
		

> One more, simple point on trigger happy American's.
> School shootings, how many in Canada, how many in America?



And this has to do with the military how?


----------



## aesop081 (13 Mar 2008)

ryananderson said:
			
		

> One more, simple point on trigger happy American's.
> 
> School shootings, how many in Canada, how many in America?



Canada : population 30 Million

USA : population 300 million


Strictly statisticaly speaking, they will have more incidents of just about everything than we will. I certainly hope you didnt give yourself a headache thinking of the stuff you put in your posts.


----------



## medaid (13 Mar 2008)

neilinkorea said:
			
		

> How so?  Anyone who believes that the only reason that we have free speech, freedom of assembly etc. is because of military personnel, probably doesn't  hold these others reasons for our relatively peaceful existence in very high regard.



Ah, because you think without the military there would be a Canada. I believe that without the military, as our history have shown, there would very well not be a Canada as we know it today. But I also believe that the prosperity and the close geographical link between a military power such as the United States contributes to that. But let's not forget that our relatively peaceful existence came about through fighting wars, and who fought those wars? The soldiers did, and they did indeed bleed for your free speech and various other rights, which you so enjoy. Without them, there would be no Canada as YOU know it today. Pretty important wouldn't you say?



			
				neilinkorea said:
			
		

> If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it just might be a duck.



Good one. So if it looks like an ignorant civi and talks like an ignoratn civi, it just MIGHT be an ignorant civi?  : Give me a break. 

I don't consider many of those who have expressed their opinions whining. I do however consider the opinions of those who have never served their country, who have never marched a mile in our soldiers boots, and so openly criticize their speech and beliefs to be a tad bit self-righteous don't you?


----------



## medaid (13 Mar 2008)

ryananderson said:
			
		

> And who said I opposed and protested the military?
> 
> You're just making things up now, come on.



Come on, no more so then the useless crap that you've been putting up.


----------



## medaid (13 Mar 2008)

ryananderson said:
			
		

> Wow, other than just calling me ignorant you didn't really back up any of your points or even shed any light on any of my questions, except a few grammatical errors, good for you.



Thank you. Good for you for speaking without proof or references, or spell check for that matter.



			
				ryananderson said:
			
		

> Thanks for trying to help me understand though, I do appreciate it!



Thank you for obviously attempting to understand, albeit a failure.


----------



## Lune (13 Mar 2008)

Lumber said:
			
		

> What class was this for and at what school? (Just so I can get an idea of HER level of education)



A collegiate general elective class.


----------



## meni0n (13 Mar 2008)

ryananderson said:
			
		

> Why do we only have what, 10 people in our Military Prison...whereas the states has Hundreds?  I know there force outnumber's ours greatly but it just seems to me (an outsider) that they have more fun killing people for some reason...



So because they have more people in their military prison that means they have more fun killing? That doesn't sound ignorant to you? So all people in military prisons are killers? You generalise beyond ignorance.


----------



## Kyu (13 Mar 2008)

ryananderson said:
			
		

> One more, simple point on trigger happy American's.
> 
> School shootings, how many in Canada, how many in America?
> 
> Ok.  Sorry for making you think so hard.



There was 7 school shootings in Canada, and 45 in the United States. (According to Wikipedia) So proportionally, there is more school shootings in Canada.

And Montréal have the record of the city with the most school shootings with 3. (École Polytechnique, Concordia University and Dawson College)

There is crackpots in every nation


----------



## rmc_wannabe (13 Mar 2008)

Lumber, 

thanks for the tips however it didn't seem to work . He's the tripe she had to offer :



> I understand all that you have said, but I have reached my own conclusions.
> I will bad mouth anyone that I want to, just like you can, and I definitely won't give any credit to you for my abillity to do so.
> 
> fuck the man
> ...



if comprehension of facts, then the refusal of believing them doesn't consititute ignorance i don't know what does ???.


----------



## medaid (13 Mar 2008)

rmc_wannabe said:
			
		

> Lumber,
> 
> thanks for the tips however it didn't seem to work . He's the tripe she had to offer :
> 
> ...




Meh, simply block her and ignore her. There will always be idiots like her, and when the time comes that requires your services, the ignorant civies will beg and plead for our help. When we're done saving their hides they will return to the way they were. It is human nature.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (13 Mar 2008)

MedTech said:
			
		

> Meh, simply block her and ignore her. There will always be idiots like her, and when the time comes that requires your services, the ignorant civies will beg and plead for our help. When we're done saving their hides they will return to the way they were. It is human nature.



You're right, I seem to get flustered for no good reason with this  :.


----------



## Lumber (13 Mar 2008)

rmc_wannabe said:
			
		

> You're right, I seem to get flustered for no good reason with this  :.



If you want one last crack at it, ask her this:

Who does she think wants a war the least? Her, who has to just continue with her daily life and watch the war on television, or YOU who might actually DIE from a war? 

or

Ask her if she supports Police Officers? From time to time they are forced to kill in the line of duty. 
frig the man
frig the army
frig war
"frig the police"?

Actually since she said "frig the man", I'm assuming she's some anarchistic hippy type who has no real grip on how society works.

Aside: I hate people who claim soldiers are warmongers. I want to protect Canada if _ever_ needed. I don't want to make a reason to do so.


----------



## Lumber (13 Mar 2008)

Lune said:
			
		

> A collegiate general elective class.



So, highschool?


----------



## medaid (13 Mar 2008)

Lumber,

   naw, don't need to. It's not necessary to get the last word. Waste of time, and waste of internet...


----------



## Lune (13 Mar 2008)

Lumber said:
			
		

> So, highschool?



College.


----------



## hauger (14 Mar 2008)

Ummm,  regarding ryananderson & to a much lesser extent neilinkorea.......why, oh why, oh why do people feed the trolls?


----------



## 1feral1 (14 Mar 2008)

ryananderson said:
			
		

> ....the American's are there for, which is purely to kill people
> Thanks!



Good gawd!! 

Thats one of the most stupid things I have read in years, and does nothing but demonstrate the poster's pure and utter ignorance of the US in OIF/OEF operations.

Sounds like somehone has an anti- US agenda here.

Shakes head yet again,


Wes

EDIT: As for feeding trolls, they should be fed a diet of their own shyte, as they are overflowing with it.

Double EDIT: They can share each others. One can have the corn, the other the peanuts :


----------



## ryananderson (14 Mar 2008)

Kyu said:
			
		

> There was 7 school shootings in Canada, and 45 in the United States. (According to Wikipedia) So proportionally, there is more school shootings in Canada.
> 
> And Montréal have the record of the city with the most school shootings with 3. (École Polytechnique, Concordia University and Dawson College)
> 
> There is crackpots in every nation



Thanks!  A valid point...that's all I was after...but instead I just get a lot of people calling me names!


----------



## 1feral1 (14 Mar 2008)

Just calling a spade a shovel pal, look at the crap you posted.


----------



## ryananderson (14 Mar 2008)

Wesley  Down Under said:
			
		

> Good gawd!!
> 
> Thats one of the most stupid things I have read in years, and does nothing but demonstrate the poster's pure and utter ignorance of the US in OIF/OEF operations.
> 
> Sounds like somehone has an anti- US agenda here.



Wow....is it just a coincidence the American's spend more on their military than the rest of the World combined? (excluding Russia)

Yeah...I do have an anti-US agenda when it comes to invading and occupying countries for no reason.... I'm sorry....  That's my opinion.  Live with it!


----------



## Brett2692 (14 Mar 2008)

I am a Member Of  172 Clarington air cadets squadron.
Last November when we were doing  tag sales, I was posted along with a fellow cadet at our Local Canadian tire.
As I was asking the usual (Hello sir/ma'am would you like to donate to your local 172 air cadet squadron) to a friendly looking old lady,(apx. 65) she replied by yelling in my face, toe to toe, Why in Gods name would i support an organization that is over in Iraq blowing the heads off Innocent civilians! Creating civil unrest!
But you do look cute in your uniform.
(slips me 10$ bill)

 ??? ??? ???

I just dont get some people.
Brett


----------



## ryananderson (14 Mar 2008)

Well, honestly and truely I'm sorry if I offended anyone with my ignorant comments....

And please I would rather be educated than just called ignorant...if anything... thank you.


----------



## appletreecdn (14 Mar 2008)

Perhaps we can say she's a civilian lady who is a little ignorant about the military but who happens to support an organization having something to do with the military? ;D


----------



## Lumber (14 Mar 2008)

ryananderson said:
			
		

> I do have an anti-US agenda when it comes to invading and occupying countries for no reason...



Can we just go ahead now and rename the the thread to "Ignorant ryananderson"

Seriously though, do you honestly believe that there was no reason behind the invasion of Afghanistan? Iraq? Vietnam? Korea? Do I need to go further back?


----------



## Brett2692 (14 Mar 2008)

appletreecdn said:
			
		

> Perhaps we can say she's a civilian lady who is a little ignorant about the military but who happens to support an organization having something to do with the military? ;D



my thoughts exactly. :cdnsalute:


----------



## ryananderson (14 Mar 2008)

Lumber said:
			
		

> Can we just go ahead now and rename the the thread to "Ignorant ryananderson"
> 
> Seriously though, do you honestly believe that there was no reason behind the invasion of Afghanistan? Iraq? Vietnam? Korea? Do I need to go further back?



I believe that it's not the U.S.'s call to make those decisions to invade.  I suppose someone has to do it...but they clearly LIKE doing it!


----------



## 1feral1 (14 Mar 2008)

ryananderson said:
			
		

> Wow....is it just a coincidence the American's spend more on their military than the rest of the World combined? (excluding Russia)
> 
> Yeah...I do have an anti-US agenda when it comes to invading and occupying countries for no reason.... I'm sorry....  That's my opinion.  Live with it!



No reason?

Goes to show you how much you really do know.

Looks like Canada too is an occupier then, as is Australia, and other countries who have the balls to help out.

Yes I was a proud occupier too, next thing you'll have us all labelled as baby killers  : .

EDIT: Like doing it???

Which do you prefer? The peanuts or the corn??


----------



## Yrys (14 Mar 2008)

ryananderson said:
			
		

> And please I would rather be educated



You can begin here :

The-Afghanistan-Debate

Afghanistan Debate: Why we should be there (or not) & how we should conduct the mission (or not) 

The Sandbox and Areas Reports Thread (February 2008)


Search for "sandbox" and you will find plenty of informations...


----------



## Lumber (14 Mar 2008)

ryananderson said:
			
		

> I believe that it's not the U.S.'s call to make those decisions to invade.



So when a nation's national security is threatened by the actions or inactions of another, whose decision is it?


----------



## Yrys (14 Mar 2008)

Lumber said:
			
		

> So when a nation's national security is threatened by the actions or inactions of another, whose decision is it?



And, PLEASE, if you're thinking of answeringt the U.N., get more informations before!


----------



## Brett2692 (14 Mar 2008)

...someone just got owned....


----------



## neilinkorea (14 Mar 2008)

MedTech said:
			
		

> Ah, because you think without the military there would be a Canada. I believe that without the military, as our history have shown, there would very well not be a Canada as we know it today. But I also believe that the prosperity and the close geographical link between a military power such as the United States contributes to that. But let's not forget that our relatively peaceful existence came about through fighting wars, and who fought those wars? The soldiers did, and they did indeed bleed for your free speech and various other rights, which you so enjoy. Without them, there would be no Canada as YOU know it today. Pretty important wouldn't you say?
> 
> Good one. So if it looks like an ignorant civi and talks like an ignoratn civi, it just MIGHT be an ignorant civi?  : Give me a break.
> 
> I don't consider many of those who have expressed their opinions whining. I do however consider the opinions of those who have never served their country, who have never marched a mile in our soldiers boots, and so openly criticize their speech and beliefs to be a tad bit self-righteous don't you?



I find it very telling how you seem to think that the only way to serve your country is to "march a mile in a soldiers boots".  You seem to have a very militarycentric(if thats a word) view of things.  I find many posters here do.  Anyone who doesn't fall in line with the promilitary line here is blasted and then shredded for having never served.  Many people serve the interests of the country, not just soldiers.  School teachers, doctors, nurses, social workers, police officers, etc....Self-righteous is how you seem to think that soldiers have a monopoly on the ability to serve a nation.  Many do it every day in different ways.  I respectfully submit that the country would be a lot worse off if our education system or health  care system dissapeared overnight, than if the armed forces did. 
The soldiers didn't grant me the rights of   free speech and mobility.  The constitution does.  Which was framed by civilians.  If the civilian government wanted to repeal those rights tomorrow there isn't anything the military could do about it.  In fact the military would probably be used to take those rights from me.  A la the implementation of the war measures act during the October Crisis.  This notion that somehow soldiers are the mighty defenders and providers of every right, privelage, and benefit that Canadians enjoy is a myth.  Do they play a role, sure.  But so do a lot of others.   

As for the whining.  Most people dont get too upset that someone else doesn't understand their job.  Not everything knows everything about the structure of provincial education departments.  Teachers don't discuss it on the internet.  When is the last time you heard a pipefitter lament the publics lack of knowledge of his trade?  It seems a bit like whining to me.  I have been known to be wrong in the past, but that is a sentiment I don't hear from  many others here.


----------



## Yrys (14 Mar 2008)

neilinkorea said:
			
		

> You seem to have a very militarycentric(if thats a word) view of things.  I find many posters here do.



What do you expected in a web site formely knowed as Army.ca ?  You could expected one called education.ca 
to have the country well being centered  on education... No?


----------



## Lumber (14 Mar 2008)

neilinkorea said:
			
		

> You seem to have a very militarycentric(if thats a word) view of things.  I find many posters here do.


Really? Most of the people on "ARMY.ca" (or MILNET.ca, whatever) have a 'miltarycentric' view of things?! NO WAY!?!



			
				neilinkorea said:
			
		

> The soldiers didn't grant me the rights of  free speech and mobility.  The constitution does.  Which was framed by civilians.  If the civilian government wanted to repeal those rights tomorrow there isn't anything the military could do about it.  In fact the military would probably be used to take those rights from me.



The military didn't write those rights down on paper, but it created a peaceful environment that allowed the civilian government to organize itself. Then, the military protected those right against those who would seek to take them away.
Finally, militaries have been known to stand up for the rights of a nation's citizens against the 'legal' government.
(speaking 'generally' here)


----------



## aesop081 (14 Mar 2008)

ryananderson said:
			
		

> Wow....is it just a coincidence the American's spend more on their military than the rest of the World combined? (excluding Russia)



What does that have to do with anything ?



> Yeah...I do have an anti-US agenda when it comes to invading and occupying countries for no reason.... I'm sorry....  That's my opinion.  Live with it!



Yet you are incapable of basing that opinion on any sort of fact and credible information. You have so far been incapable of making a single irrefutable argument. You are, i am sure of it, basing this "opinion" on protest website and other crap like that and come here regurgitating it as if it were independent thought. The reson you are having such a hard time here is not so much that you have offended people. Its because you have no understanding of the "opinion" you have and thus are unable to explain it and sustain it.


----------



## Pte.Butt (14 Mar 2008)

neilinkorea said:
			
		

> The soldiers didn't grant me the rights of   free speech and mobility.  The constitution does.  Which was framed by civilians.



I am sorry, but the second our/any country becomes invaded, and @#$% really hits the fan, the enemy wont care about our constitution, and it'll be our soldiers who defend our right to even live. 
 And yes you're right, if our education system and health care system just disappeared over night, we would be in a world of @#$%, but if there was NEVER a Canadian Military, there wouldn't be a Canada to have an education or health care in.


----------



## 1feral1 (14 Mar 2008)

neilinkorea said:
			
		

> I find it very telling how you seem to think that the only way to serve your country is to "march a mile in a soldiers boots".  You seem to have a very militarycentric(if thats a word) view of things.  I find many posters here do.



Remember Neil, you're the minority, this is a soldier's website.

Walk a few Km in my boots and maybe you would understand more than you think you would.


----------



## 1feral1 (14 Mar 2008)

neilinkorea said:
			
		

> The soldiers didn't grant me the rights of   free speech and mobility.  The constitution does.



So, back in 1939 if we did nothing, and lket the Boxheads and the Japs walk over the earth, do you honestly think you would have the freedom and constitution you have today?


----------



## Pte.Butt (14 Mar 2008)

Wesley  Down Under said:
			
		

> So, back in 1939 if we did nothing, and lket the Boxheads and the Japs walk over the earth, do you honestly think you would have the freedom and constitution you have today?




Exactly, the enemy (whoever it may be) does not give a rat's behind about our rights.


----------



## neilinkorea (14 Mar 2008)

Yrys said:
			
		

> What do you expected in a web site formely knowed as Army.ca ?  You could expected one called education.ca
> to have the country well being centered  on education... No?



I would expect open and balanced discussion about the Canadian Army. By militarycetnric I wasn't refering to  the content of the site, I meant the views of the posters.  It feels like everything that is not pro military or full of military jargon gets ridiculed.  You guys have been complaining about civilians not being informed or interested about the military.  I am a civilian who is interested in military affairs and in the actions our military is instructed to take on behalf of the citizens of Canada.  The more I read and post here, the more I am inclined to believe that the name of this site should be changed to armymembers.ca.  You guys say you want an engaged, informed and active citizenry when it comes to military affairs, but those  of us here who are engaged basically get told we can't understand these things because we are not in the military.  When it comes down to it, we live in a democracy where the will of majority is done.  Since military members are not in the majority, the views of civilians should be very important to military members, because ultimately, due to majority rule, the wants and opinions of the civies are more important than the military member's.


----------



## JABAC (14 Mar 2008)

I think this subject is being dragged out quite a bit...I think there is a lot of confusion about what the military does and what the country needs it for.  Having a military is power, even if it is not used extensively.  The fact that we would be able to defend ourselves against an attack is what makes our claim to have sovereignty credible.  Take the north, for example...if we say it's ours (Canada's) but are unable to defend it, who says any other country cannot just claim it as it's own, populate and defend it?  We would put up a stink, of course, but, really, what could we do?  And this goes for our rights and freedoms in Canada as well.  Without a military that would be able to defend our citizens from opposing forces, our sovereignty (which includes our interests and values) means nothing.  Our military gives Canada credibility and strength, even if we don't go pushing our weight around.  The fact that we are in Afghanistan has to do with our national interest and encouraging global freedom.  I hope that I am not totally out to lunch on this one and I hope what I am saying makes sense.  And please don't take it all out of context, I am not trying to offend anyone.  Respond if you have any questions or anything to add.


----------



## Yrys (14 Mar 2008)

neilinkorea said:
			
		

> You guys have been complaining about civilians not being informed or interested about the military



Since you quote me then when on to say that, I'm taking the liberty to inform you that I'm a woman, and a civilian,
as my profile show...


----------



## Koenigsegg (14 Mar 2008)

Canada itself was formed in part out of fear of the United States.
They just bought Alaska, we were flanked.  The only way the area could maintain its security, and "sovereignty" was to take the regions as they were and unite them.  Creating a stronger bond, and a stronger MILITARY.
With that military in place and providing security for the colony/country things like the Constitution were written by those being protected.

So please, without a military in the first place...we first probably would have been American until WW2 and then who knows what.

I've never heard people make insulting ignorant comments to a pipefitter.  Ask questions, sure...but not blatantly be a fool.
I work at a lumber yard, and I don't complain about ignorant people....Because I have no reason to!  My job does not lend itself to insulting, stupid comments.
The Military does however.   MANY reasons for that.

*Oh my goodness...forgot to spell check.  And still probably missed a lot of errors.*


----------



## Yrys (14 Mar 2008)

Koenigsegg said:
			
		

> Canada itself was formed in part out of fear of the United States.



Could you back that up, please ? It doesn't look like what I'v learned in my history courses...

Maybe it's because they were in French   !


----------



## neilinkorea (14 Mar 2008)

Yrys said:
			
		

> Since you quote me then when on to say that, I'm taking the liberty to inform you that I'm a woman, and a civilian,
> as my profile show...



Oxford dictionary: (guys)[pl.] a group a peolpe of either sex.

It doesn't say anything about guys relating to military service.  Guys refrences people who post here not military members.  When you can't attack the content, attack the spelling, grammer, wording or anything you can think of to stand in the place of a reasonable argument.


----------



## Koenigsegg (14 Mar 2008)

Sorry, Just what I was taught in school.  Other than old notes that I no longer have, and text books that I returned I have no sources at hand.
I have teachers names however.  haha  (One of which being ex-navy...not that it matters)

Because it was a while ago that I covered that part of history, the best I could do was say "in part".

Garrr...that's the problem with schools...it depends so much on the teachers as to what you are "taught" or what slant there is to it.

*Edit*
Don't shoot me for this source (First one that popped up...Wikipedia)

"External pressures that influenced Confederation:

the U.S. doctrine of Manifest destiny, the constant threat of intervention from the US 
the U.S. Civil war, British actions and American reactions 
the Fenian raids 
the creation of a new British colonial policy, Britain no longer wanted to maintain troops in its colonies."

Oh, God...I feel so dirty.

*and http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=A1ARTA0001842*
I would look for more...But sleep is calling.  I've been neglecting the poor thing.


----------



## X-mo-1979 (14 Mar 2008)

Neil in Korea.
Isnt there some better thing to be doing with your superior mind/job tonight?

I'm guessing your teaching english to Korean kids or something right?Well good for you! 

Wish you all the best.


----------



## appletreecdn (14 Mar 2008)

uh.....have you checked that this site is known as Army.ca and that Milnet.ca, Navy.ca all link to the same space on the net?  If I go to such places, I naturally would expect to see military-centric opinions on topics and meet military-centric people.  

"march a mile in a soldiers boots" comment does not say at all that only soldiers serve their country.  I believe that comment is in response to an inaccurate perspective taken by a non-military individual.  It simply says if you have not been a soldier then do not pretend you know how a soldier might think and do.  

Soldiers certainly do not grant you the rights but they certainly are among those protecting the rights granted to you by the constitution.  Those rights are granted to you by the society as a whole through social contracts.  Canada's written constitution laws simply prescribe those rights so that the courts do not have to reinterpret them again and again through precedences.  And yes, each of us plays a role and the military's role in Canada is to protect the Canadian society's ability to uphold those rights against external and internal enemies.  So YES, in the case of Canada, soldiers are among the mighty defenders of those rights.  (BUT they are not the only ones.)

If the civilian govn't wants to repeal those rights?  Well then the entire basis of this discussion would be non-existent.  In that case, if many are affected, there might even be armed uprising and even a revolution.  (our neighbour to the south is a good example)

Another very ignorant point is that during the Oct Crisis, the soldiers did not take away any people's rights.  They were there to assist the elected civilian government in maintaining and protecting the environment that would allow those rights to be upheld.  Whether that was an over reaction or not could be left to historians.  One thing for sure is Trudeau certainly didn't set out to make himself a king.  It's also quite ironic that you should mention this because the repatriation and the addition of the Charter to Canada Act is one of Trudeau's political brain child.

Like I said in previous posts, the military is a tool of a society made up of members of that very same society, hence certainly it could be used by a bad government against the people but there is no shortage of examples in which the military is a stabilizing force and preserver of social values.

Most people don't get too upset that someone else doesn't understand their job, indeed.  BUT I don't believe most people don't take offence if non-understanding AND rampant ignorance has been committed toward thier job.  Try saying 'elementary school teachers are all lame ducks who can not deal with older students and are bunch of p***philes' out loud in a school lounge and see if anyone get upset.


----------



## joonrooj (14 Mar 2008)

Yrys said:
			
		

> Could you back that up, please ? It doesn't look like what I'v learned in my history courses...
> 
> Maybe it's because they were in French   !


Canada and the United States were British colonies. The US decided to have a revolt (when I say the US, I mean one third of its population) and split off from Britain. Canada being the nice guys we are  decided to stay British. 
A group of rich and powerful men, commonly called the "war hawks", decided that because of manifest destiny they should invade Canada and make it 'free' like the US of A. War of 1812 (I think, memories kind of blur after a beer or 4).
Canada (still under Britain) uses British soldiers and local volunteers, burn down whitehouse, lose in a big battle in the deep south (Im thinking louisiana but Im prolly wrong) and we kind of retreat to Canada. I can't really remember how the war ended, if there was a clear winner or just a general cease fire, but British Canada is now anti american, with a standing army formed (Brit regulars I believe) and militia (if needed) to protect Canada. Pretty much everything we did back then was to establish us as a different country from the US, Founding of the Mounties, claiming of BC (for the goldrush), etc.

hope that clears it up. Also, if I am wrong aboot some of these things (most likely am) please correct me, add to my points etc.

-J

EDIT: damn someone beat me to it, also made it much less wordy than mine.
EDIT2: Also I think Im in the wrong time period.


----------



## JABAC (14 Mar 2008)

neilinkorea said:
			
		

> Since military members are not in the majority, the views of civilians should be very important to military members, because ultimately, due to majority rule, the wants and opinions of the civies are more important than the military members.



I really wouldn't go so far as to say that the opinion of the civies is more important.  We (military members) are also citizens of the same country.  The military is a government organization.  The citizens elected the government.  And the military answers to the government, not to the general population.  So... if the attitude of the military, in general, (not talking individuals here) is of a certain viewpoint, is it because that we have a deeper understanding of how the military works and the understand needs and demands of the government.  To say then, that what we have to say is less important, is ignorant, because we better understand the issues at hand and what is required of us, by the government elected (by you).


----------



## neilinkorea (14 Mar 2008)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Neil in Korea.
> Isnt there some better thing to be doing with your superior mind/job tonight?
> 
> I'm guessing your teaching english to Korean kids or something right?Well good for you!
> ...



This is a perfect example of what I was talking about.  I never said I have a superior mind, job, or anything else.  I am just a firm believer that constructive and productive discussions include many different opinions without devolving into name calling sessions where people choose to  mock someones occupation instead of offering a factually correct and valid counter-argument.  You know the last thing we need is an opinion that doesn't back up our own.


----------



## 1feral1 (14 Mar 2008)

Neil, with the crap you post you should expect worse than what we are paying out to you.

Look at yourself.


----------



## Booked_Spice (14 Mar 2008)

Okay I want to whine.... and I want to Complain. 

I serve my country and I don't wear combats boots. I think I have the Hardest job as alot of people on here. I am married to the army. When he is deployed I am the one who has to become mommy and Daddy. I am the one who chases the horses with 2 kids strapped on my back in 4 feet of snow.(  bad night)

 I also have the hardest job because I need to raise my children to be proud of Being a Canadian and to understand the sacrifices their daddy makes for their country.

I am the one that sings my kids to sleep because they are scared that their daddy is not going to come home. 

On the lighter side, my daughter tells everyone she meets that her Daddy is in the Army and she is very proud of him because he fights for those that can not fight.

I have one question for the Ignorant CIVIES on this post. Name me one occupation that their country comes before their family......


Just my 2 cents.....and I am trying to lighten things up a bit......

Edit:  a further note.. I think I am geting the ***** end of the stick cause the tax payers don't pay my wage...


----------



## appletreecdn (14 Mar 2008)

Neilinkorea, I think we should all be glad that people of this forum have refrained from abusive and derogatory languages.  I didn't really see any name calling or did I miss it?  As for mockery, well, usage of literary devices shall be expected during passionate debates/discussions.  Unless, you're the type who's into say for example the kind of debate where all participants all only say nice things and agree on things all through out.

BTW.....freedom of expression, speech, mobility DO carry responsibilities as well.


----------



## neilinkorea (14 Mar 2008)

Wesley  Down Under said:
			
		

> Neil, with the crap you post you should expect worse than what we are paying out to you.
> 
> Look at yourself.



Thanks Wesley.  You have just decided that my opinions are crap without telling me why.  Oh yeah, you did say I need to walk a few kms in your boots before I am able to understand these things on your level.  This place is a real us vs. them  type  deal.  I think that is the way military people view the world in a lot of ways.  Perhaps due to training and experience where it serves them well.  I don't know what being in the military is like or what being in combat is like.  However, this website tries to present itself as a place where open dialogue on military matters is valued.  All I see  these days is an NDP and media bashing playground.  I am a conservative and not a big fan of the NDP because they are anti-military just to be anti-military, and listen to no other position.  I think being pro-military just for the sake of it and blocking out all other views is just as bad.


----------



## X-mo-1979 (14 Mar 2008)

neilinkorea said:
			
		

> This is a perfect example of what I was talking about.  I never said I have a superior mind, job, or anything else.  I am just a firm believer that constructive and productive discussions include many different opinions without devolving into name calling sessions where people choose to  mock someones occupation instead of offering a factually correct and valid counter-argument.  You know the last thing we need is an opinion that doesn't back up our own.



Neil I didn't mean in in a malicious way!

I think a fine citizen of Canada such as yourself has every right to come onto a military forum and put down military personell/civilian per's who are militarycentric.

Are you lonely in Korea? Most of us here are soooo use to being away from family I guess we forget what it use to be like away from home,having downtime to think about family and miss canada.I kinda feel bad for you buddy.Hang in there!Hopefully everyones comments here tonight kept your mind off missing home and mom's cooking.

Hope you feel better soon!

Good for you!


----------



## neilinkorea (14 Mar 2008)

Booked_Spice said:
			
		

> I have one question for the Ignorant CIVIES on this post. Name me one occupation that their country comes before their family......



There is no occupation where country comes before family.  There are only people who are willing to put their country before their family.


----------



## appletreecdn (14 Mar 2008)

Neil Neil Neil.....tzk tzk tzk....

It's not that your opinions are crap.  It's that the way you voice your opinions makes them seem crap.  You essentially just said what booked_spice said is crap and that her experience as a military wife is not worth anyone's ears!


----------



## neilinkorea (14 Mar 2008)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Neil I didn't mean in in a malicious way!
> 
> I think a fine citizen of Canada such as yourself has every right to come onto a military forum and put down military personell/civilian per's who are militarycentric.
> 
> ...



Thanks for you kind words.  I am here in a Korean Language and Culture program at a University.  I plan to join the CF when I return to Canada.  I wanted to learn another language and culture so as to bring something else to the forces when I join.





[/quote]


----------



## appletreecdn (14 Mar 2008)

BTW.....I'm a Liberal and have always been a Liberal and will remain so probably even though I have to admit the Tories have been doing pretty much the Grit way in the past few months.  ;D


----------



## neilinkorea (14 Mar 2008)

appletreecdn said:
			
		

> Neil Neil Neil.....tzk tzk tzk....
> 
> It's not that your opinions are crap.  It's that the way you voice your opinions makes them seem crap.  You essentially just said what booked_spice said is crap and that her experience as a military wife is not worth anyone's ears!



Many people make sacrifices for the country.  Why is it that a soldiers sacrifices in the area of family should be seen as greater than anyone elses?  I am not disputing anything she said.  I answered her question.  I don't think a job puts country before family.  A person does.  Just check the gun control threads here.  There is a lot of guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people thinking here.  Why doesn't that logic transfer to any other situation?


----------



## Yrys (14 Mar 2008)

appletreecdn said:
			
		

> You essentially just said what booked_spice said is crap and that her experience as a military wife is not worth anyone's ears!



We didn't read the same thing, or read it the same way. What I read in the post of neilinkorea you're refering to was a bit of wisdom.
Not crap on someone else post or experience...


----------



## medaid (14 Mar 2008)

neilinkorea said:
			
		

> I find it very telling how you seem to think that the only way to serve your country is to "march a mile in a soldiers boots".  You seem to have a very militarycentric(if thats a word) view of things.  I find many posters here do.  Anyone who doesn't fall in line with the promilitary line here is blasted and then shredded for having never served.  Many people serve the interests of the country, not just soldiers.  School teachers, doctors, nurses, social workers, police officers, etc....Self-righteous is how you seem to think that soldiers have a monopoly on the ability to serve a nation.  Many do it every day in different ways.  I respectfully submit that the country would be a lot worse off if our education system or health  care system dissapeared overnight, than if the armed forces did.
> The soldiers didn't grant me the rights of   free speech and mobility.  The constitution does.  Which was framed by civilians.  If the civilian government wanted to repeal those rights tomorrow there isn't anything the military could do about it.  In fact the military would probably be used to take those rights from me.  A la the implementation of the war measures act during the October Crisis.  This notion that somehow soldiers are the mighty defenders and providers of every right, privelage, and benefit that Canadians enjoy is a myth.  Do they play a role, sure.  But so do a lot of others.



neilinkorea,

I find it very telling that you, as a civilian believes that he knows everything about those who serves this country. I have a very centric view, surprise, surprise! I serve in the military, and in case you haven't noticed this is a forum where many military members congregate to speak and chat amongst ourselves. Have you wondered why we do so here? Why there are so many forums like these exist for many militaries around the world? I will tell you why, because of the civilian population. 

You read that correctly, because of the civilian population. You are the prefect example of what I mean. You along with a few other that have already posted in this thread have proven time and time again why WE, those of us who decide to take up arms, and stand sentry for the safety of this country do not like to mingle with many of the public. 

Civilians have never understood the toll of being a service member. Countless times in countless militaries where the soldiers go forth and serve in areas of operation to defend the country's welfare, its foreign policies and its interests. You want to talk about how all the other people have contributed, and how its the civilians that holds power over the Constitution and without Civilians it would have never existed? 

Here are some examples of why I think you completely out of her. Without the military, albeit the British Army along with Canadian Militia during the war of 1812, there would be no Canada because we would merely be a few more states to the United States of America. Where would your civilian bureaucrats and politicians be then? Where would this Charter and Constitution be? That's right NON existent. 

During the WWI the War to End All Wars, if not for Canadian efforts, France would be lost forever, along with and possibly England. Without a base of operations close to Europe or any launching point close enough to the UK without telegraphing our presence of an invasion fleet, how could we possibly have recaptured and defeated the German/Austrian military? That's right we would have a damn hard time. Where would we repatriate our Constitution from if the UK was lost?

During WWII once again without Canadian efforts, you think the landing on DDay would have been successful? You think that Canada would not have been a target once The Third Reich had established power? You think the Japanese would not have attempted an attack on Canada? No military you say? Where would your precious Constitution be then? Where would your Charter be? Answer me that!

Need any more examples? Every major conflict, every single operation that Canadians participated in prior to Confederation, The Constitution Repatriation, and now all have been built on the spilt blood of the soldiers and militiamen. Without those men whose bodies littered the battle fields of old, YOU sir, would have been able to post as you do today, on a forum whose purpose is to serve the members of the Canadian Military, current, past and future. 

You would like to speak of Education do you?! The education system of today is deplorable. I think history is extremely important yet the caliber of the instructors are laughable, and if not down right criminal. The high school students of today cannot name one major Canadian victory during WWII, although YOU may not think it's important, but many of those campaigns helped SHAPE how we were viewed ARE viewed in the World stage today. 

Self-righteous you say?! How many of the people you have listed would drop everything on a dime, and march to the government's orders to go and defend your rights? A policeman? No, because they are essential service. Don't get me wrong, I respect them, I have many friends who are members, but they have a different function and even if they are members of the CF, their jobs would preclude them from serving in such a capacity at the beginning. A Doctor? No, because those of us who serve and work in the Health Services know that we're short on doctors in the Forces, why? Because not many can take the job of being a military physician.  Don't even get me going on social workers.... You think that because social workers exist that all things are peachy and dandy in this society? Let me re-iterate this again in case you missed it the first time. NONE of these occupations as you so know it, and are so quick to point out, WOULD EXIST AS YOU KNOW if it had NOT been the efforts of the fighting men and women of our military. 

You want to talk about soldiers taking rights away? You obviously have not experienced a totalitarian state such as Pakistan, Any middle eastern country and many African ones. Your name say you're in Korea, I'm assuming that's South so the ROK right? Not North PRNK? Because if you were in the North you'd understand that you have it good here in Canada, where the soldiers defend the constitutional right of every single citizen and resident. Mine and most certainly YOURs. 

You want to talk about the October Crisis? From that point right there it just OOOOZES ignorance. You know WHY the October Crisis was brought about? You know WHY the War Measures Act was brought about? The seriousness of the situation at that point in time required a serious action. A time where chaos was around every corner because, oh hold on, that's right TERRORISM was IN OUR HOMES, not on our door steps as it is now, but happening right here, right now. You think the police force could have handled patrolling the streets with limited man power? No. Not possible. Not with the limited resources at their disposal at the time. Obviously you would rather that the military NOT have been mobilized and the situation just carry on as usual. Give me a break.

It is not a myth that the soldier is the provider of every privilege, right and benefit that every Canadians enjoy even ourselves. We will bleed, be injured and even die to defend those rights, privilege and benefit that YOU and every other civilian so enjoy. Because I don't see a Social Worker in Afghanistan fighting do you? I don't see a Carpenter in Afghanistan fighting do you? I don't see an Accountant in Afghanistan fighting do YOU?! I don't see a TEACHER, a BUS DRIVER, a COMPUTER PROGRAMMER OVER THERE FIGHTING DO YOU?! If those people are there right now it is because they are part of the CF contingent that is over there. They are soldiers, servicemen and women and identify as such. Every soldier that is lost is a loss to our family. OUR FAMILY. A Family that is not welcomed in most of society because of this misguided concept YOU civilians have. No matter what we do to try and educate you, no matter what we do to help you understand, YOU the IGNORANT civilian just DOES NOT UNDERSTAND. 

You believe EVERY SINGLE WORD the MSM has to say, but you doubt the words of a serving member. Why? Because you were taught to think critically through the internet, through university and through our society?! You along with many others who believe they know what is or is not in terms of the military and in terms of our sacrifice has no clue. You have something that's called the Ivory Tower syndrome. You along with many academics who believe they know just WTF is going on is doing so from afar. You think a Degree will allow you to grasp, to understand to comprehend the life of a soldier or a servicemen or women, whether it's RegF or PRes does not give you a CLUE. Even if you lived a month amongst us, it is only a month. You then return to your comfortable surroundings and never have to deal with the sand, the hardship, the constant ridicule by the public again. Yet we endure this everyday. We endure it and we carry on, and we serve proudly, and honorably in our uniforms. Uniforms that represent Canadians, YOU and ME and HER and HIM and THEM, all over the world. We are the ones that make the Maple Leaf SHINE, we are the ones that lend that helping hand when disaster strikes. 

Do you?






			
				neilinkorea said:
			
		

> As for the whining.  Most people dont get too upset that someone else doesn't understand their job.  Not everything knows everything about the structure of provincial education departments.  Teachers don't discuss it on the internet.  When is the last time you heard a pipefitter lament the publics lack of knowledge of his trade?  It seems a bit like whining to me.  I have been known to be wrong in the past, but that is a sentiment I don't hear from  many others here.



Really?! Have you spoken to a dentist or a nurse or a doc when they get off work? They whine. They whine more then you know. You hear a lawyer whine? You know what this place is? It's a community for serving member to relax and exchange ideas without being prejudiced against by the public. Where retired members stay in touch and where prospective members seek information. You bet not everyone knows the structures of a provincial education department, but do people speak poorly about teachers? Do people have negative preconceptions about teachers? Do people call teachers brain washers, hypocrites or publicly denounce them? When was the last time people protested against teachers for what they were teaching or how they were teaching? When was the last time you see someone move away from a teacher on a bus because they were sitting there? Well it happens allot to soldiers. All of the above happens allot to soldiers. Your pipe fitter analogy, fine we'll use a pipe fitter, so does any of the above happen to him/her? NO. Whining? Fine, we'll call it whining. Why don't we call it systemic profiling and discrimination by the Canadian public? You, as a civilian come to a military site where military personnel congregate to share their thoughts and YOU want to complain that WE are whining?

Get out. Go ahead. I don't care. Because you are just like every other ignorant Canadian I have ever met. I can't talk to someone like you. Someone who believes that they know what a soldier's place in society is. Someone who believes that they know how things are by reading MSM, watching movies and television. 

Get out. Go ahead. You have come here to argue against us. We have never invited you here. We have not encouraged you to stay. We have defended ourselves as we do constantly in the eyes of the public, and who you represent the portion and the majority of the public that many of us detest and have given up trying to educate. 

You want a fact? Here's a fact.

There is no job like the military. There is none. There hasn't been since the beginning of the first organized bodies whose only job is to defend the tribe from outside conflict. This is a job where we put up with sacrifices other are too sacred, too cowardly, too unwilling or too disgusted to do. There are things that bump you in the dead of night and we are the ones that bump back. We are it. The first and last line of defence of Canadian beliefs, foreign policies, trade policies and vision. We are your brothers, sisters, sons, daughters, cousins, mothers, fathers, grandmothers and grandfathers. WE ARE WHO WE ARE, WE ARE CANADIAN JUST LIKE YOU. 

The only difference is, we have long ago accepted who we are and what we do. It's time you did too.


----------



## Booked_Spice (14 Mar 2008)

neilinkorea said:
			
		

> Many people make sacrifices for the country.  Why is it that a soldiers sacrifices in the area of family should be seen as greater than anyone elses?  I am not disputing anything she said.  I answered her question.  I don't think a job puts country before family.  A person does.  Just check the gun control threads here.  There is a lot of guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people thinking here.  Why doesn't that logic transfer to any other situation?



Really, I didn't take offense. I wasn't even talking about my husbands sacrifice. I was talking about mine
 Heck he gets to go on exercise and PLAY. How come I don't get to take a break from the" home fires"?
 I sacrifice everything. job promotion ect..... and what do I get?. No tax payers money. I get to be the bad guy with my kids because Daddy is always the good guy.... ;D 

EDIT: sloppy typing and punctuation....


----------



## Lumber (14 Mar 2008)

Hey MedTech, would you like to write the two essay I'm trying to write, just this minute. 

Clearly you've got a LOT more motivation to write than I do.
...


----------



## appletreecdn (14 Mar 2008)

Booked_Spice said:
			
		

> Really, I didn't take offense... I wasn't even talking about my husbands sacrifice.. I was talking about mine
> Heck he gets to go on exercise and PLAY. How come I don't get to take a break from the" home fires" I sacrifice everything. job promotion ect..... and what do I get.... No tax payers money....Nope.. I get to be the bad guy with my kids because Daddy is always the good guy.... ;D



 ;D hahahahaha

Case in point Neil.  What you post may not be interpreted the same way as you have intended.


----------



## neilinkorea (14 Mar 2008)

I'm surprised at how much flack I'm getting for the October Crisis FLQ thing.  It was an illustration of the fact that the government can take away rights and the military can be used as a tool to do that.  Want to enforce a curfew, have soldiers patrol the streets.  Use soldiers to search the homes of people without the consent of a judge.  Whether or not it was valid was never in question.  It is just an example that it is doneand the military will be directed by the government to do it.  So, soldiers are not the protectors of your rights and freedoms ALL of the time.  Only when the government instructs them to be.


----------



## appletreecdn (14 Mar 2008)

neilinkorea said:
			
		

> I'm surprised at how much flack I'm getting for the October Crisis FLQ thing.  It was an illustration of the fact that the government can take away rights and the military can be used as a tool to do that.  Want to enforce a curfew, have soldiers patrol the streets.  Use soldiers to search the homes of people without the consent of a judge.  Whether or not it was valid was never in question.  It is just an example that it is doneand the military will be directed by the government to do it.  So, soldiers are not the protectors of your rights and freedoms ALL of the time.  Only when the government instructs them to be.



First thing...MedTech I would not solute you since I'm not in the military but in place of it you have my respect.  Let's just say it's a head-bow to show my respect.

Neil, it's a very very very bad example to use as an illustration.  I'm not criticising you nor am I your opinions.  BUT but but.....I can't help myself and certainly others that you have put yourself up for perhaps a barage of what you may view and feel as crap.  The Oct Crisis is everything but just not what you say it is.  At the time, the mood in Quebec was so confrontational and chaotic and terrorism was indeed happening.  Mail boxes (government property) were exploding and for Christ's sake people were kidnapped and murdered!  It's really not much different than those islamic militants.  

And what does that have anything to do with what you have to say?  Not too sure if you are familiar with the Cultural Revolution and many other political movement in China in the 60's and early 70's.  You can find proofs that your arguement that because soldiers can take away your rights (assuming they really can) when the civilian government instructs them so that they are not protector your rights at all time is not valid.  Back then in China, they didn't even need the military to prosecute and take away people's rights, it was all done by playing mind games among the civilians!  So following your logic, are civilian not protector of their own rights?  Does what I say even make anymore sense now?  No, because the nature of such an arguement is that it's a fallacy!

And like you said...'only when government instructs them to be' then they don't take away anybody's rights, do they?  The government does.  In this case, soldiers are just the tool!  Remember the gun control debate?  Similiar logic.  

Just a generalization....the military/soldiers are the protector of my rights at all time so are the police officers, human rights lawyers among many others.  If they (soldiers) are not among the protectors of my rights at all time then please enlighten me who are?


----------



## neilinkorea (14 Mar 2008)

appletreecdn said:
			
		

> First thing...MedTech I would not solute you since I'm not in the military but in place of it you have my respect.  Let's just say it's a head-bow to show my respect.
> 
> Neil, it's a very very very bad example to use as an illustration.  I'm not criticising you nor am I your opinions.  BUT but but.....I can't help myself and certainly others that you have put yourself up for perhaps a barage of what you may view and feel as crap.  The Oct Crisis is everything but just not what you say it is.  At the time, the mood in Quebec was so confrontational and chaotic and terrorism was indeed happening.  Mail boxes (government property) were exploding and for Christ's sake people were kidnapped and murdered!  It's really not much different than those islamic militants.
> 
> ...



You are agreeing with everything I said.  I never said that soldiers take away rights.  I said that they are not always the defenders of our rights.  Regardless of the context of the October crisis, this is an example when the government chose to curtail civil liberties and used the military as a means to do that.  I didn't say that people were for or against.  If your house was ransacked by soldiers you were probably against it.  If you worked for the Government you were probably for it.  It was an example of the fact that soldiers may not always have your personal freedoms in mind as is often promoted on this site.  

Police officers don't protect our rights, courts do.  The courts decide if the police have infringed on your rights.  If they have, you will be set free even if the evidence points toward your guilt.    Courts protect our rights from internal threats.  One of my main points was that there just aren't that many external threats to our freedoms these days.  That doesn't mean I'm saying that there never was or never will be again, but right now there aren't.  Some will say terrorism is.  But really our military involvement in a war against Islamic terrorism doesn't do much to improve our safety.  It does help the Afghan people and nation tremendously, but it is debatable whether or not it has made Canada safer.    People here have called me self -righteous.  There isn't much more self-righteous than telling people that you are the only thing protecting them from all the harm that is closing in on them from the outside.  We need to be prepared for threats but also appreciate the reality that Canada is pretty safe from the attacks that we are prepared to defend against via NORAD and NATO, but not from the ones we are not as prepared to defend against and may be agitating by military involvement in Afghanistan, Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorism.


----------



## Love793 (14 Mar 2008)

If your house was ransacked by soldiers you were probably against it.

Can you show 1 documented case of this?


----------



## Lumber (14 Mar 2008)

neilinkorea said:
			
		

> You are agreeing with everything I said.  I never said that soldiers take away rights.  I said that they are not always the defenders of our rights.



I don't know about you, but if there was a terrorist insurgency in my hometown (Hamilton), I would be happy to have the authorities, police or military, search my home to help safeguard my personal health and that of those around me. Hell, I'd probably be at work or in school at the time.

In the context of the October crisis, the rights of the citizens to privacy was superseded by their right to safety from physical harm. Yes, the military was there taking away that privacy and freedome of movement, but they were also there protecting them from terrorism and anarchy.

Not every right can always be realized at the same time, but the military is ALWAYS there to defend our rights!


----------



## neilinkorea (14 Mar 2008)

Love793 said:
			
		

> If your house was ransacked by soldiers you were probably against it.
> 
> Can you show 1 documented case of this?



No.  Can you show any against it?  Soldiers were brought in to help the police.  I am assuming that could have entailed help with searching the homes, or being present while police searched the homes, of "high risk" targets.  No so far outside the realm of possibility. 
There is an IF in that sentence.  I never said that they did.  Maybe ransack is a harsh term, but that is the way I would view it if the authorities went through my home.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (14 Mar 2008)

neilinkorea said:
			
		

> You are agreeing with everything I said.  I never said that soldiers take away rights.  I said that they are not always the defenders of our rights.  Regardless of the context of the October crisis, this is an example when the government chose to curtail civil liberties and used the military as a means to do that.  I didn't say that people were for or against.  If your house was ransacked by soldiers you were probably against it.  If you worked for the Government you were probably for it.  It was an example of the fact that soldiers may not always have your personal freedoms in mind as is often promoted on this site.



Given when the October Crisis happened, were you even born then? Many here were not only alive then, but involved. Perhaps you should go on recieve, instead of send. If you were a sperm or ovum then, you have no idea what was happening. The FLQ was no different than what Tommy Taliban is doing now anywhere else.

Spend some time travelling the world. You'll get a true idea about how liberal our rights in Canada are. and why. 

We didn't get this way by being milquetoast, placard waving student activists.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (14 Mar 2008)

neilinkorea said:
			
		

> No.  Can you show any against it?  Soldiers were brought in to help the police.  I am assuming that could have entailed help with searching the homes, or being present while police searched the homes, of "high risk" targets.  No so far outside the realm of possibility.
> There is an IF in that sentence.  I never said that they did.  Maybe ransack is a harsh term, but that is the way I would view it if the authorities went through my home.



We have a rule here. You make an accusation, you provide the proof. You can't start an argument and defend it by asking the defender for proof. The onus is on the accuser.......that's you.

Ante up, otherwise you're trolling, and that will get you punted from here.

I'm the only Mod on, and I have very little patience right now. Especially with students having nothing else to do on Spring Break.


----------



## appletreecdn (14 Mar 2008)

neilinkorea said:
			
		

> You are agreeing with everything I said.  I never said that soldiers take away rights.  I said that they are not always the defenders of our rights.  Regardless of the context of the October crisis, this is an example when the government chose to curtail civil liberties and used the military as a means to do that.  I didn't say that people were for or against.  If your house was ransacked by soldiers you were probably against it.  If you worked for the Government you were probably for it.  It was an example of the fact that soldiers may not always have your personal freedoms in mind as is often promoted on this site.



Neil...you still don't get it, do you?  

No I don't agree with what you have posted.  Not all of them, some.  We are talking about the CF here in the context of Canada.  If you are talking about individual soldiers.....what do they have to do with proving your points.  It certainly isn't an individual soldier's business for my personal well being.  He/she is to follow good orders throught the chain of command which ultimately ends in the hands of the civilian government hence in civilians' hands.  As a collective, and in the context of Canada, they have only been the protector of people's rights all through out at all times.  All through out Canada's history, Canada's military has only been playing the role of defender and protector and they have even been asked to sacrifice their family and even life to achieve such an objective.  So isn't it justified to give them the recognition that they are indeed the protector of our rights at all time until they cease to do so?

Just as a side note, for some Chinese Canadians and Japanese Canadians, it was through their service in the military during times of conflict that eventually earned them the right to be treated as Canadians.  And today's Canada is strongly shaped and influenced by its war efforts in conflicts past and present.  In a few words, my and certainly your rights' cost certainly includes the blood of those in uniform.  

My house has not been ransacked by soldiers.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (14 Mar 2008)

Lumber said:
			
		

> I don't know about you, but if there was a terrorist insurgency in my hometown (Hamilton), I would be happy to have the authorities, police or military, search my home to help safeguard my personal health and that of those around me. Hell, I'd probably be at work or in school at the time.
> 
> In the context of the October crisis, the rights of the citizens to privacy was superseded by their right to safety from physical harm. *Yes, the military was there taking away that privacy and freedome of movement, *  but they were also there protecting them from terrorism and anarchy.
> 
> Not every right can always be realized at the same time, but the military is ALWAYS there to defend our rights!



The military took NO rights away. The Military simply reacted and obeyed the orders given by the Trudeau Liberal government. He, and they, were the ones that supended the rights and imposed the War Measures Act. Not the military, which is nothing more than a government tool. The whole thing was Trudeau and the Liberals.


----------



## Lumber (14 Mar 2008)

recceguy said:
			
		

> The military took NO rights away. The Military simply reacted and obeyed the orders given by the Trudeau Liberal government. He, and they, were the ones that supended  the rights and imposed the War measures Act. Not he military, which is nothing more than a government tool. The whole thing was Trudeau and the Liberals.



UGH! I hate semantics. You know what I meant.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (14 Mar 2008)

appletreecdn said:
			
		

> My house has not been ransacked by soldiers but even if it were it would have been by thieves who happen to be soldiers.



WTF are you talking about. Please explain this idiotic statement.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (14 Mar 2008)

Lumber said:
			
		

> UGH! I hate semantics. You know what I meant.


Perception is reality. We're being inundated by dweebs that will profess your words as that of the messiah. As an up and coming, you'll find your very career will hinge on words you've spoken years before. Be careful.


----------



## Lumber (14 Mar 2008)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Perception is reality. We're being inundated by dweebs that will profess your words as that of the messiah. As an up and coming, you'll find your very career will hinge on words you've spoken years before. Be careful.



Aye, Capt'n!


----------



## appletreecdn (14 Mar 2008)

recceguy said:
			
		

> WTF are you talking about. Please explain this idiotic statement.



Hmmmmm.....that is indeed rather perplexing and has been edited.


----------



## hauger (14 Mar 2008)

What a great thread....very lurk friendly.

Still, I have a few things to add.

Neil....good on you for debating against so many people on such an emotionally charged subject.  Hell, I'd even go so far as to say some of your comments have a degree of merit.  You are right that a military is not the granter or great protector of rights (can you see the blood start boiling here)...examples are everywhere of the opposite of this (say, Argentina during the "dirty war" for example).  Society as a whole through various social contracts and social institutions provides the rights, and the rule of law protects and manages them...simply speaking.  Having said that, lets look at what a military in a democracy is, shall we;

The military (in our case, the CF) is the physical force behind the government....the "muscle" if you will.  The CF represents the extension of the government to use force to protect or insist itself on a situation.

The government is the representation of the will of society as a whole (not just the vocal minority).  Thus, by extension the CF represents the will of society to induce force to, well, get it's point across.

Society, as such, wishes to protect it's rights/freedoms/sovereignty.  When society has it's sovereignty challenged, be it territorial or otherwise, it has the option to use many different avenues to solve it's issue.  One of the biggest is of course diplomacy.  *This is where the CF becomes the protector of your rights, so pay attention.*  The CF acts, metaphorically, as the strong man guy standing behind the diplomat...the threat of violence (along with NATO) that adds strength to the diplomats voice (of course along with other strengths such as economics and whatnot).  If diplomacy fails, and Canadian society (through the Government) deems the issue threatening enough to the sovereignty of the nation, it employs the CF...the force.  In essence, the CF is the might that makes the people right.  

This is why, say, Evilistan one day decides to annex Vancouver because, well, it's sick of the way we let our women drive cars.  Ottawa can make all the "women can do what they want" laws it wants, but unless there's a CF that marches in and tells the soldiers of Evilstan to bugger off, those laws do no good.  Take it a step further....Evilstan doesn't invade, but instead finances and encourages a proxy group to effect it's will in Vancouver (hmmm....state-sponsored terrorism/proxy wars).  Sure, you fight the insurgency, but the insurgency keeps coming...eliciting its own law and judgment almost vigilante style against the populous (sort of how the Taliban currently behave).  The government and thus society has lost control over it's own sovereign right to determine the rights of it's citizens....what's it to do?  Write a new constitution?  Whine internationally that it's getting treated "unfairly"?  No, it gets fed up and utilizes it's "muscle" by hitting back against Evilstan. 

Because of this usage, the CF is in fact the final line of defense for the rights and privileges of the citizenry.

The ignorance pisses people off for two reasons....they are intrinsically linked to the will of the Government which is supposed to be the will of the people.  When the populous refuses to take a role in understanding it's government and its actions, it makes the members angry at the refusal of that person to self educate about their own society.  For example:

IC: "you're in the army....think you'll ever have to go to Iraq?"
Army guy: "Ummm....Canada isn't in Iraq"

Army guy thinking 'do you ever watch the news?  Do you have any idea what your government is up to?  

Sure it's that citizens prerogative to choose ignorance, but it's still annoying seeing the lack of involvement and willful ignorance.

Further...when that ignorance manifests itself in unsolicited and wholly unsupportable opinion being thrust upon a member, it really gets to some members nerves.  When attempts to educate (yes, educate....people should understand what it is their government is up to) fall on deaf ears and the ignorance continues to be offered, it's highly offensive.  This would be true of any single profession that found itself the target.  I'm sure police for instance get sick of hearing punk kids calling them "pigs"...an unsolicited, ignorant view directed towards the police.  This thread is a manifestation of exactly the same thing.

I hope all this made sense.


----------



## Strike (14 Mar 2008)

hauger,

Made sense?  You should be teaching social studies in high school or something.  This is something you should submit to a paper.  Even I understood it...and that's saying something.   ;D


----------



## OldSolduer (14 Mar 2008)

Excuse me but I'll put this in language that Neil can understand:
You have no right to compare the CF to the "militaries" of nations such as Argentina. The "armies" of such nations were meant to supress there own citizens, not fight a foreign power.
The CF is not empowered to supress the citizens, nor should an army be supressing its citizens.

I guess sitting in Korea has had an effect on your perspective.


----------



## infanteer-it (14 Mar 2008)

First thing to say: the title of this thread would come across as offensive to a civilian browsing the site even though we army people know i only refers to that one in the crowd who makes the stupid remark.

Second thing: Neil! I saw the flak you are getting and looked back through all your posts. When people join an organization like the police or the army it is very easy to dissassociate yourself from the people you're "sworn" to protect. As such a different attitude develops towards the "sheep" so to speak. (Reference: sheepdog vs. wolf vs. sheep analogy). That attitude rears its ugly head a lot on this website with the "Walk a mile in my boots" posts. My advice to you, as I would advise anyone who starts getting flak here, is just cease and desist because you won't win. Your posts are well grounded and make sense. I agree that anyone who posts anything on this site that disagrees with one of the directing staff usually gets pounced on. And not in a counterargument either, but rather a personal attack that directly represents the different prevailing attitude among our members. Personally I refrain from posting in argumentative threads because of this exact reason. 

Third Item: I would encourage people on this site, both military and civilian, to engage in real discussion and argument. Don't dismiss people because they aren't in the military. None of Neil's posts were attacks or flames and were all articulate. Members of this site resorted to attacks and flames because they disagree with them or misunderstood his argument. Directing Staff: as moderators you guys need to step back a bit and look at what your posting. Personally I've lost respect for a fair number of people on this site who take the "holier than thou" trump to winning an argument. Seriously? A lot of you can talk some serious shop and I respect that but that ain't all there is to it.


----------



## IGA (14 Mar 2008)

Where to begin? As a civilian I am pro military and very appreciative of the efforts and sacrifices of our men and women in the CF. And also of their families. I  am certainly not going to defend ignorant civies and their remarks, although I think they are in the minority. I have also seen remarks on here that I would consider as ignorant coming from the military side. I believe there are far more Canadians like the ones that line the highway in Ontario showing their respect, than there are UVic antimilitary A holes. However, saying that the military is the reason Canada exists is doing a disservice to countless thousands of civilians who have worked just as hard and sacrificed just as much as anyone in the military. The men of the merchant marine as an example.  I  don't think it should be an us vs them.  I think part of the problem is that the military, for the most part is out of sight, out of mind. I've spent most of my 50 plus years living on the lower mainland of B.C. and other than watching the Snowbirds at Abbotsford I have had no experience with anyone in uniform. And that includes playing soccer games right on the Aldergrove naval station. I feel that Gen Hillier and shows like Truth Duty Valour and Jetsteam are doing an excellent job in getting more exposure for the military. Theres not just a war in Afghanistan that the military has to win, but also one of public relations. And the more people see what good work the military does not just around the world but here at home too, then I think you will see less of the " ignorant civie" One more thing I have family serving in the US army, and he has been to Iraq twice and to say they only want to kill people is really reprehensible.


----------



## appletreecdn (14 Mar 2008)

hauger, you've conveyed some of what I was trying to say except you have done a much better job.  Succinct and eloquent.  

"I guess sitting in Korea has had an effect on your perspective." - I think us civilians are just as suceptible to ignorant comments as those in uniform.

"I would encourage people on this site, both military and civilian, to engage in real discussion and argument. Don't dismiss people because they aren't in the military." - hear hear.

"Theres not just a war in Afghanistan that the military has to win, but also one of public relations." Yeah...no kidding...I certainly don't want to be called blood thirst monster just because I support the CF.   

BTW, for my own education's sake, what if I encounter some military personnel lobbing ignorant and racist comments at me?


----------



## ryananderson (14 Mar 2008)

MedTech said:
			
		

> neilinkorea,
> 
> I find it very telling that you, as a civilian believes that he knows everything about those who serves this country. I have a very centric view, surprise, surprise! I serve in the military, and in case you haven't noticed this is a forum where many military members congregate to speak and chat amongst ourselves. Have you wondered why we do so here? Why there are so many forums like these exist for many militaries around the world? I will tell you why, because of the civilian population.
> 
> ...





 It seems to me you shouldn't be in the military if you get this angry over simple words on the internet.... 

You chose to help your country by joining the military.

I chose to help my country, by starting my own business and contributing that way.  Who do you think pays your wages anyway?  Taxpayers?

Everyone that lives in Canada and isn't on welfare is contributing.... I'm third generation Canadian and I love my country, I would die for it if someone invaded us or something hit close to home...but ...in reality I can't help everyone, and everyone isn't going to join the army.

Why can't we all just get along and you can be the bigger man since you have been through so much training and have so much discipline....and maybe...just maybe offer wisdom to us ignorant civies?


----------



## ryananderson (14 Mar 2008)

Wesley  Down Under said:
			
		

> No reason?
> 
> Goes to show you how much you really do know.
> 
> ...




How long do ya think it will be before Canada is the next U.S. state? lol

Or maybe Russia and the U.S. will just Nuke each other before then...who have what, over 5000 active nuclear warheads? woo that'll be fun.... yay for war!


----------



## ryananderson (14 Mar 2008)

Ok, before someone yells at me again lol...

Why not just give me a few reasons why you truely believe you should be fighting for other countries, when they don't want you fighting for them?

I've seen videos, of civilians throwing rocks and shit at U.S. military convoys on youtube....these aren't made up.....they want them out..and they aren't "taliban"....

So what gives?  I'd want someone out of my country if they were in here too running around with guns and bombing my families.....?  So strong reasons would be best....


----------



## ryananderson (14 Mar 2008)

hauger said:
			
		

> What a great thread....very lurk friendly.
> 
> Still, I have a few things to add.
> 
> ...




Sorry for my 5 posts in a row....

But....

I'm just glad I live in Canada, and not somewhere Canada is occupying... I'm glad I'm that fortunate.....and I'm glad you're fighting for us... I'm just curious, how they feel about it I guess...how would you feel if you were them....do you ever think about that sort of thing?


----------



## muskrat89 (14 Mar 2008)

> It sounds to me you are a 23 year old punk.



OK. Personal attacks (by anybody) stop now, or this thread will be locked.

The thread title has bothered me also "uninformed" may have been better. 

Army.ca Staff


----------



## ryananderson (14 Mar 2008)

Sorry, edited.


----------



## PMedMoe (14 Mar 2008)

ryananderson said:
			
		

> Who do you think pays your wages anyway?  Taxpayers?



I pay taxes as well. Probably more than some other employed people, so you can shut that one down right now.



			
				ryananderson said:
			
		

> I've seen videos, of civilians throwing rocks and crap at *U.S. military convoys * on youtube....these aren't made up.....they want them out..and they aren't "taliban"....



And are they doing this to the Canadian troops? 

I agree, maybe the thread title should be changed to "Civilians who don't understand what we do" but you can stop anytime with the anti-American rhetoric and comparing us to the U.S. Military.  I don't care who you've spoken to and what they've told you.


----------



## ryananderson (14 Mar 2008)

Well you didn't read my previous posts obviously and are just commenting on this one so to re-iterate...I was saying I am more in favour of us being there than the U.S. because we are more there to help because I think / thought that the U.S. is more there to just ....be there..and to be involved in "war".  

meh...  I'm just stupid.  :


----------



## Celticgirl (14 Mar 2008)

ryananderson said:
			
		

> Why not just give me a few reasons why you truely believe you should be fighting for other countries, when they don't want you fighting for them?



President Karzai (President of Afghanistan) has said: 
(1) "Please convey to your people [in Canada] the immense gratitude from the people of Afghanistan, for contributing in money and soldiers and choosing Afghanistan to be the biggest recipient of Canadian help."
(2) "If the greatness of life is measured in deeds done for others, then Canada's sons and daughters who have made the ultimate sacrifice in Afghanistan stand among the greatest of their generation."
(3) "In Afghanistan, you [Canadians] are not only serving the cause of security for the international community, and your country, you are also helping one of the most oppressed societies in the world and the little children that they have. Thank you." 

Does that sound like Canadian troops are an unwelcome entity in Afghanistan?



			
				ryananderson said:
			
		

> I've seen videos, of civilians throwing rocks and crap at U.S. military convoys on youtube....these aren't made up.....they want them out..and they aren't "taliban"....



How do you know if they are or are not Taliban? Are they supposed to be wearing a scarlett T so you can identify them?



			
				ryananderson said:
			
		

> So what gives?  I'd want someone out of my country if they were in here too running around with guns and bombing my families.....?  So strong reasons would be best....



Canadians are bombing Afghan families? I really hope you can you back that up with evidence because this is a pretty serious and dangerous statement. 

"Running around with guns"? That's a huge oversimplification (and distorted view) of the military and their mission overseas, don't you think?   ???


----------



## PMedMoe (14 Mar 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Can you back up that statement?
> 
> And this has to do with the military how?



Oh, so maybe you missed this post, ryananderson.  I'm not just here spouting off comments.  I  want you to prove your statements.  You're the one who has derailed this topic, not me. 



			
				ryananderson said:
			
		

> meh...  I'm just stupid.  :



You said it, not me.


----------



## ryananderson (14 Mar 2008)

Yup, you know everything almighty military personelle


----------



## ryananderson (14 Mar 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Oh, so maybe you missed this post, ryananderson.  I'm not just here spouting off comments.  I  want you to prove your statements.  You're the one who has derailed this topic, not me.
> 
> You said it, not me.



What statement are you referring to?


----------



## PMedMoe (14 Mar 2008)

ryananderson said:
			
		

> Yup, you know everything almighty military personelle



 I give up.  Mods?


----------



## riggermade (14 Mar 2008)

muskrat89 said:
			
		

> OK. Personal attacks (by anybody) stop now, or this thread will be locked.
> 
> The thread title has bothered me also "uninformed" may have been better.
> 
> Army.ca Staff



I would suggest if you want to lock this that you look at giving Ryan a warning first...he is obviousrly ilinformed and just trying to push everybody's buttons


----------



## riggermade (14 Mar 2008)

Thank you for his warning


----------



## ryananderson (14 Mar 2008)

whoa...I apologized AND even edited my post....

really?????


----------



## Edward Campbell (14 Mar 2008)

I’m getting a bit tired of this ill-named thread.

Yes, indeed, there are some people, quite a few I would guess, who know little and care less about the military; there are also people, not too many I think, with a very clear and distinct anti-military bias. But, in my experience – more than 35 years in the regular army including all of the ‘60s, ‘70s, and ‘80s – the military was and is no less understood or supported than, say, the police.

Ask nurses and doctors if they are misunderstood. Some of them have hair-raising stories about ignorant patients. Ask school teachers about ignorant parents. Ask lawyers or bankers about ignorant clients. There’s nothing unique about *“ignorant civies”* except for the fact that they are in (thankfully) pretty short supply.

As those who bother to read what I post can attest I am no great fan of my fellow men (and women), especially not of my fellow Canadians. I routinely decry their lack of (useful) education (there: another ignorant guy sounding off about teachers and _educrats_) and their self-centred “greed and envy.” I am neither surprised nor distressed when too many of them confuse our and our allies’ mission in Afghanistan with another allied mission in Iraq. In fact my distress is with politicians, academics and the _commentariat_ who either fail to explain who is doing what to whom where or, worse, intentionally cloud the issue for their own partisan purposes.

But, you know, some misconceptions have pretty long histories. When I first joined many (most single) soldiers never completed an income tax return; quite a few serving military people did not understand that we did, indeed, pay taxes and they went home and told their mates from high school! It’s no wonder so very many civilians still think we you don’t pay taxes; we (serving soldiers) told ‘em that forty or fifty years ago. As the traffic on Milnet.ca demonstrates, again and again, many Canadians, including many Canadian sailors and soldiers, get most of their _news and views_ from US media; it’s not surprising that some, military and civilian alike, often believe that what’s happening in the US is also happening here.   

As for the (most young and inexperienced, I think) military people who complain long and loud about *”ignorant civies”*: suck it up, buttercup; if you can’t take a joke  you shouldn’t have joined. When _”we’re needin’ ‘em, not feedin’ ‘em”_ again (an old insult hurled at my generation by those who joined ten or twenty years earlier) you can bet that all those *”ignorant civies”* will line up at the recruiting offices and they (the volunteer or _active_ force) will fight and die alongside their permanent force colleagues, just as bravely, just as loyally.


----------



## ryananderson (14 Mar 2008)

It seems to me you pick on anyone that doesn't conform to your views.   ???


----------



## riggermade (14 Mar 2008)

If you have a problem I would suggest you pm the mod as you are writing your way to be banned and it is not a case of conforming to views...you have made some broad statements with no back up and continue to do so


----------



## ryananderson (14 Mar 2008)

So I get banned for my views now?


----------



## ryananderson (14 Mar 2008)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I’m getting a bit tired of this ill-named thread.
> 
> Yes, indeed, there are some people, quite a few I would guess, who know little and care less about the military; there are also people, not too many I think, with a very clear and distinct anti-military bias. But, in my experience – more than 35 years in the regular army including all of the ‘60s, ‘70s, and ‘80s – the military was and is no less understood or supported than, say, the police.
> 
> ...



Man that is just the post I was waiting for....thank you.


----------



## riggermade (14 Mar 2008)

I can't ban you all I am is saying is you can have a view but back it up with facts and not attacks on members here or very broad statements you have made about other armies


----------



## ryananderson (14 Mar 2008)

Yeah you're right I have made one broad statement... And I can't really prove that I have talked to these people now can I?  I mean, what can I do to prove that?  It just seems, in my point of view that Canadians are helping, and American's are just....fighting...  I know that is probably a stupid thing to say...but its just what I have been fed by the media and the things I have read, and the people I've talked to.... I'm new on these forums.... I'm sorry if Im butting heads already but obviosly not everyone has the same point of view in this country as everyone else....you just have to live with that....  And I'm glad to hear that American's are working alongside us overthere trying to help I would rather hear stories about that but obviously those stories are few and far between for me!


----------



## ryananderson (14 Mar 2008)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> President Karzai (President of Afghanistan) has said:
> (1) "Please convey to your people [in Canada] the immense gratitude from the people of Afghanistan, for contributing in money and soldiers and choosing Afghanistan to be the biggest recipient of Canadian help."
> (2) "If the greatness of life is measured in deeds done for others, then Canada's sons and daughters who have made the ultimate sacrifice in Afghanistan stand among the greatest of their generation."
> (3) "In Afghanistan, you [Canadians] are not only serving the cause of security for the international community, and your country, you are also helping one of the most oppressed societies in the world and the little children that they have. Thank you."
> ...



I would assume a Taliban wouldn't let you drive through their village? I dont know...

And it probaby is a distorted view...sorry if im so vulgar to be making such "dangerous" statements...this is the internet...  What do you expect?  Complete and utter control over everyones views everywhere?  Probably...thats probably why I'll get banned for my views......


----------



## Franko (14 Mar 2008)

ryananderson said:
			
		

> I would assume a Taliban wouldn't let you drive through their village? I dont know...
> 
> And it probaby is a distorted view...sorry if im so vulgar to be making such "dangerous" statements...this is the internet...  What do you expect?  Complete and utter control over everyones views everywhere?  *Probably...thats probably why I'll get banned for my views.*.....



Not at all, but you will be if you go against the Guidelines of this site that you agreed to when you signed up.

I suggest you get more familiar with them and then re-read the posts you've quoted.

Your choice.

*The Army.ca Staff*


----------



## riggermade (14 Mar 2008)

ryananderson said:
			
		

> Yeah you're right I have made one broad statement... And I can't really prove that I have talked to these people now can I?  I mean, what can I do to prove that?  It just seems, in my point of view that Canadians are helping, and American's are just....fighting...  I know that is probably a stupid thing to say...but its just what I have been fed by the media and the things I have read, and the people I've talked to.... I'm new on these forums.... I'm sorry if Im butting heads already but obviosly not everyone has the same point of view in this country as everyone else....you just have to live with that....  And I'm glad to hear that American's are working alongside us overthere trying to help I would rather hear stories about that but obviously those stories are few and far between for me!



I believe what you said was Americans are just killing...correct me if I am wrong...we are all entitled to our view but you made unsubstantiated remarks...where did you learn that Americans are just killing


----------



## ryananderson (14 Mar 2008)

Ok sorry let me get those tapes from the news I watched on T.V.....  ???

I just said those were my views and they still are....its just an accumulation of information that has led me to these conclusions.....


----------



## riggermade (14 Mar 2008)

ryananderson said:
			
		

> Ok sorry let me get those tapes from the news I watched on T.V.....  ???
> 
> I just said those were my views and they still are....its just an accumulation of information that has led me to these conclusions.....



Show me somewhere that somebody made a statement that Canadians are helping and Americans are just killing...I watch the news as well and haven't heard that yet


----------



## Celticgirl (14 Mar 2008)

ryananderson said:
			
		

> ...this is the internet...  What do you expect?  Complete and utter control over everyones views everywhere?  Probably...thats probably why I'll get banned for my views......



I expect people to refrain from making inflammatory statements and gross generalizations. I expect people to back up their statements with evidence, not with even more inflammatory statements and gross generalizations. There are many people on this site who have served in Afghanistan, and therefore, they have more knowledge than you or I about the mission and our NATO allies. Think about your audience for a moment before you post. 

You're entitled to your opinions, but to make negative blanket statements about the Canadian or U.S. Military on a Canadian military website  that has a large portion of military members, retired military members, and civvies who work with, live with, or aspire to become military members, is not the best way to 'make friends and influence people'.



			
				ryananderson said:
			
		

> Probably...thats probably why I'll get banned for my views......



Might I suggest you find and read the site rules before you continue posting? Then you may recognize precisely why you have a verbal warning and are in danger of being banned. Knowledge is power.


----------



## ryananderson (14 Mar 2008)

Uhh.. I just made that statement  ;D

And I`m telling you, its from the years of watching the media and getting my own information.... What else can I do


----------



## ryananderson (14 Mar 2008)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> 'make friends and influence people'.



I`m not here to make friends.... sorry.

I`m here to learn...and if you can`t help..move along....I`m waiting for the people who HAVE served to tell me why!

If you get offended at my posts....stop reading them.


----------



## Franko (14 Mar 2008)

*Back on topic troops.*



			
				ryananderson said:
			
		

> I`m not here to make friends.... sorry.
> 
> I`m here to learn...and if you can`t help..move along....I`m waiting for the people who HAVE served to tell me why!
> 
> If you get offended at my posts....stop reading them.




ryananderson - check your PMs.

You are now on the ramp with that last post.

*
The Army.ca Staff*


----------



## riggermade (14 Mar 2008)

You have not shown a thirst for knowledge..all you are doing is irritating everyone with your comments


----------



## ryananderson (14 Mar 2008)

This is obviously not the right place to voice my opinion.


----------



## riggermade (14 Mar 2008)

You just said you were here to learn...stop making statements and learn then


----------



## leroi (14 Mar 2008)

ryananderson,

I'm a civilian too. I respect this on line community; I respect our soldiers, I respect the CF.

More importantly, I respect my liminal place here as a guest and an outsider.  It is a privilege to be here and I've learned a lot.

Please demonstrate some cultural sensitivity when communicating on these forums or find another on line community that more reflects your values.

As a civilian, I'm here to learn and understand and to empathize. You are wasting bandwidth. You are alienating both civilians and CF personnel equally.  

Your comments have completely validated the title of this thread.


----------



## ryananderson (14 Mar 2008)

I`m trying but people just insist on telling me I`ll get banned or calling me ignorant...

I have received a few very valid points and I have pm`d those members because I  wanted to thank them for their intelligience instead of just calling me stupid for not knowing.


----------



## Franko (14 Mar 2008)

ryananderson said:
			
		

> This is obviously not the right place to voice my opinion.



Not true. We've had many with voices of dissension come here and have a good exchange of ideas. 

riggermade summed it up nicely.

You've gone down the wrong path with your attitude and personal attacks on the members on this site.

Suggest you suck back and do a bit of reading and also get to know the site.

*The Army.ca Staff*


----------



## ryananderson (14 Mar 2008)

leroi said:
			
		

> As a civilian, I'm here to learn and understand and to empathize. You are wasting bandwidth. You are alienating both civilians and CF personnel equally.
> 
> Your comments have completely validated the title of this thread.



So because I don`t share the same beliefs as you, I am wasting bandwidth.

MM hmm....


----------



## the 48th regulator (14 Mar 2008)

ryananderson said:
			
		

> So because I don`t share the same beliefs as you, I am wasting bandwidth.
> 
> MM hmm....



Privately owned, and paid for Bandwidth might I add.

dileas

tess

army.ca staff


----------



## riggermade (14 Mar 2008)

Ryan

You are being told about being banned because of unsubstantiated statements and comments made to members....if you wnat to learn then I suggest you ask questions instead of making statements that you have have taken out of context from media sources that do not aways report as things are...there is alot of experience on this site in both Afghanistan and Iraq and to attack what our allies are doing there when people have fought along side of them is not the way to make friends on this site


----------



## ryananderson (14 Mar 2008)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Privately owned, and paid for Bandwidth might I add.
> 
> dileas
> 
> ...



where can I donate so I can continute ranting? lol


----------



## Fishbone Jones (14 Mar 2008)

Locked (temporarily)
 ryananderson it's not your opinion that is offensive it's your blatant baiting and trolling. Take some time to re acquaint yourself with the guidelines while this thread is on hiatus.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## the 48th regulator (14 Mar 2008)

No need,

As per his request, he has landed him in the same pool as the diver.

dileas

tess


----------



## Franko (14 Mar 2008)

Trolling, baiting and personal attacks with ample warnings from the staff.

Buh Bye.

*The Army.ca Staff*


----------

