# "Death Prediction" stuns troops



## Cycophant (29 Aug 2003)

I‘m sure we all remember hearing just a month or two ago of the government‘s prediction that 10 Canadian soldiers would likely die in Afghanistan.  The article below shows the opinions of a few soldiers, in response to this comment:

 http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/LondonFreePress/News/2003/08/29/171247.html 

I‘m not sure if they share the same view as the majority or not; it‘s hard to tell, I suppose.  

There is a brief area in the story that mentions that the 2nd Brigade group (5th Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group) just recently got the new "tan desert" uniforms, since they‘re scheduled to head over to Afghanistan in January.  I‘m assuming these are CADPAT?  And what happened to the idea that we would stay with the green uniforms to differentiate from the other international forces?


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## Gunnar (29 Aug 2003)

I think all the story was saying was that:

1.  Yes, they have desert cadpat.  (Unlike previous missions)
2.  They have decided not to use it for tactical reasons.

This makes the green uniforms an operational choice, and not a political "well, we didn‘t have the money/uniforms ready" issue.

That‘s all.


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## Jungle (29 Aug 2003)

Troops are deploying to Afghanistan with BOTH cam patterns. The C of C has authority to have troops wear either depending on the situation. But I think the C of C is still (politically) uncomfortable with CADPAT-AR, so it might be a while before we see widespread use of it. Personally, from a tactical point of view, we should stick to one uniform (the one that is best suited for the region). This reduces the chances of confusion on the ground. Remember that uniforms were first introduced so troops would know "who‘s who in the zoo".


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## combat_medic (29 Aug 2003)

Having been debriefed by the commander of the original 3 PPCLI battle group in Afghanistan (whose name eludes me at the moment), he said that having the temperate CADPAT was a major advantage. For one, people easily recognized them as being Canadian and were more willing to help, provide information and so on, knowing that they weren‘t Americans. Also, in some of the more mountaneous regions he said that the people in desert cam stuck out like a sore thumb, and the green came in quite handy.


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## Staff (29 Aug 2003)

I think that the choice of uniforms does nothing but appease the civilian conscience. Too many people tried crying foul because our troops were there, but under-equipped. 

During the first mission in Afghanistan, the Pats demonstrated that professional soldiers don‘t really care what color their uniform is. They will cam up according to the environment. I have heard stories, from the boys, about the Yanks (who were wearing chocolate-chip) asking for tips on cam techniques etc., because our guys looked more like the surrounding countryside than they did.

The option to wear green makes us more visible "downtown". When we are doing our thing, as per normal,i.e.:interacting with the civilian population on a humanitarian basis, or, just as a liason with local authorities, being Canadian is sometimes valuable. 

Being visible or invisible, as far as the color of our uniforms is concerned, is a matter of consternation, only for people who have never had to dress up like a small indigeonous tree or snowbank.

I may not be Infantry, but blending in or sticking out depends on the siuation, in my own opinion.


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## Michael Dorosh (30 Aug 2003)

"Pats"?

"color"(sic)?

tut tut


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## Staff (30 Aug 2003)

All right Michael, I‘ll appologize to the patricia‘s who might be offended by being called "Pats", but I don‘t spell it colour, or armour, or shoppe, or towne, or olde. This isn‘t the forum for it so I won‘t discuss why I think Teddy Roosevelt was right when he arbitrarilally(sp?) rerote the english language.  Whatever.

My point was that professional soldiers don‘t really care what equipment they don‘t have. They will deal with the equipment the do have.( Note the lack of underlines and capitals(more a joke for my old lady, who tends to read over my shoulder, than for you guys).


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## Michael Dorosh (30 Aug 2003)

Staff, I think I agree with you that the entire uniform thing was blown way out of proportion.  Combat Medic has posted several times now, correctly, about the use of green not being inappropriate in Afghanistan - your comments further that.

As for Teddy Roosevelt - WELL!  I must admit, I pronounce khaki as "kack-ee" rather than "Car-key" as some bluff old traditionalists do.  But if the Toronto newspapers say "color", then surely to God it can‘t be Canadian - can it?


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## nULL (30 Aug 2003)

Ie thinc staff haz ah point. Letz al re-rite inglish.

EDIT: Not trying to offend here or anything, it‘s just kind of a pet peeve I have...I guess I had good teachers in grade school


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## Staff (30 Aug 2003)

Thanks for your inpur nULL, but, this isn‘t the spot to debate linguistic semantics.

Any soldier knows, that on any operation, he/she will be required to deal with situations that were not allowed for in the planning phase. Suck it up and carry on. Other than uniforms, there are probably thousands of Kit Deficiency Lists we could come up with for any of our recent operations. (Nobody mention Vector Binos Smart*ss)

Back to the original story;    If it‘s true that we can expect to lose that many in a six month tour, then that just speaks to how effective we are, considering the Brits and the Americans are losing people almost daily, according to the news. I‘m not saying we‘re better, but, as has been said in other posts, our international credibility SHOULD BE good enough to keep our guys safe more often(to sort of paraphrase). The rest is just training and doctrine.


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## Jungle (31 Aug 2003)

> My point was that professional soldiers don‘t really care what equipment they don‘t have


I do !!! I‘m not talking about the latest "Gucci" kit to make you look cool. I‘m talking about getting the right tools for the job. Like, for instance, the Iltis in Afghanistan... The uniform thing, in my opinion, is very important. We need to be all dressed the same, all the time. This is so the locals and our Allies recognize us without hesitation. Also, we should be wearing the best cam pattern for the region. It‘s nice to be "high-profile" when you can, but then when you run into trouble you need to be able to blend in, to  disappear. Wathever uniform does that, we should wear only this one. Canada has found a way to turn the use of cam patterns into a political hot potato !!!


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## Michael Dorosh (31 Aug 2003)

Yeah, but Jungle, if some yokel is inclined to shoot at Yankees but not at Canucks, doesn‘t it make sense to dress differently?  Sometimes political decisions actually make a modicum of sense...what does Doug think of all this, I wonder?


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## Jungle (31 Aug 2003)

There are no US troops in ISAF, still they were targets on a number of occasions. I said we should wear the best uniform for the region, I did not specify which one as I have never been to Afghanistan. When I say "all dressed the same" I am talking about CDN troops, not all of ISAF. What I am saying is that CDN soldiers should use one cam pattern only, so we ARE distinguishable and easily recognizable. If we sometimes dress in green, other times in brown, we are inviting confusion.
Now if it‘s just a matter of being readily identifiable as CDNs, not Americans, and we do not care about concealment and the use of terrain, I suggest we have our troops wear red cbts with great big white maple leaves on the front and back.


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## Pikache (31 Aug 2003)

I say issue hockey jerseys.


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## Gryphon (3 Sep 2003)

and instead of c7s, let‘s give ‘em hocky sticks.. then we‘ll show ‘em who‘s boss!!

Go hockey!!!


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## Danjanou (3 Sep 2003)

Yeah but no visors. Good Canadian boys don‘t wear no wimpy visors eh!


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## Christopher (3 Sep 2003)

Ugh, I hate Grapes.


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## Doug VT (3 Sep 2003)

I like what 3VP did in Afghanistan, kit wise.  I think that the green CADPAT is a good idea, because it is different.  We‘re not the only country over here that is wearing green.  I do have all the desert CADPAT kit, I don‘t think it will see any use, it‘s not really required, but nice to have if needed.  The people don‘t really know Canadian‘s much, but their awareness is increasing.  Early on most thought we were Americans, but as time wears on, most are finding out that we aren‘t.  There may not be any American‘s here as part of ISAF, but there are plenty here conducting operations in the badlands.  

I totally believe in us all(CDN) using the same uniforms and equipment, however, there should be room for some individual kit as long as the base equipment and all the important identifying features remain the same.


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## muskrat89 (3 Sep 2003)

> If anyone wants to discuss such matter with me, come on down to AZ!


Geez, I‘m already there!       Maybe since I‘m (generally) pro-American, you could hook me up with some of those Ft Huachuca deer permits


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## Danjanou (3 Sep 2003)

Muskrat, you do know you‘re not allowed to hunt them with a 105mm  right.

Major you‘re right, US bashing is at present the norm. Mind who ever ends up top dog usually becomes the target for it. I‘m sure waay back in history somebody somewhere bashed the Brits, The Spanish, The Romans, Greeks et cetera et cetera.

The infamous Canadian backpacker, (sew the flag on to get better treatment)has been overdone. I‘ve been in some places off the beaten track where it was just presumed I was American (ok yeah technically we all are American as in North American but you know what I mean). trying to explain to the locals what Canada was resulted in a blanck stare and the assumption that it was just part of the states.

Good call on the Bastogne parade by the way. Soldiers who fight/fought with honour irregardless of on which side should be accorded respect.


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## muskrat89 (3 Sep 2003)

I work in manufacturing, and the general feeling is that it‘s only a matter of time until the bulk of manufacturing goes to the Far East. China doesn‘t just produce junk any more - their quality is able to compete with western products. As an example, I work for a metal-stamping Company. A more "buy American" management group, you‘ve never seen - that being said, in order to compete, we are now forced to consider buying dies and components from the Far East - in essence, we‘re just delaying our demise, while helping strengthen their economy. Also, the masively lower labour rates enable the Chinese to spend extra profit dollars on research, and technology - hastening the pace in which they are overtaking the West. I recently read an article (sorry I can‘t find it now - excuse the fuzzy details) where China is also practicing "currency manipulation" which is not governed by international trade/commerce laws. The biggest buyer of American dollars in International markets is China. They then inflate the value of the US dollar. This allows them, in essence, to sell exports for 30% more (guessing the actual number), and purchase imports for 30% less, based on the de-valuation. Pretty freaky stuff. It is thought, with the labour rates, population(work force), and increased technology/quality - even countries like Mexico, the Phillipines, Indonesia, Pakistan, etc., won‘t be able to compete, long term, with China. It‘s a pretty gloomy picture in the manufacturing sector, Stateside...


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## Jungle (3 Sep 2003)

> I totally believe in us all(CDN) using the same uniforms and equipment, however, there should be room for some individual kit as long as the base equipment and all the important identifying features remain the same.


It‘ OK to have some personal accessories, but the uniform shouldn‘t be fooled around with.
Doug, take care !!!


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## Michael Dorosh (3 Sep 2003)

Major, I might suggest you buy a copy of my book DRESSED TO KILL which explains in detail Canadian uniforms of the Second World War period.  The short answer is yes, Canadian uniforms were quite different from British ones.  We manufactured our own, and frankly, ours were much better in a myriad of ways.  

We also had our own unit insignia, our own regimental traditions, and most men spoke without a "British" accent.  We also adopted British lingo thinking it was more "military", mostly because US civilian terms were no different from Canadian ones.

So while a Canadian civilian put gasoline in his car, the soldier used "petrol".  It seemed more military than what American soldiers called it - gasoline.

Canadian civilians used flashlights; in the army they learned to call them torches.  The US Army still used the North American term flashlight.

etc., etc.


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## muskrat89 (3 Sep 2003)

For many people, especially those not familiar with manufacturing - there is an assumption that China only produces "junk" - cheap knock-offs, and stuff you find at the dollar store. I was saying that assumption is erroneous. The die manufacturers we are looking at are mostly Korean. Their die standards are higher, dies are quoted quicker, dies are built in half the time or better, dies are right when they arrive. Price is significantly lower. Dies ultimately are owned by our customers. Its growing more difficult to convince them to buy North American, when the toolhouses are being out-performed in so many different facets of the business. It‘s tough - we can insist on buying American - our sales losses will definitely put us out of business. We can keep our doors open a little longer at least, but we are hurting tool & die shops, fastener manufacturers, etc. An example is the recently imposed steel tariffs - it helped our steel industry, but is absolutely KILLING all of the industries that rely on that raw material.


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## Danjanou (4 Sep 2003)

> I prefer prior 1941 relations.....I believe that it will be that way again soon. Americans are growing tired for being blamed for everything (sometimes rightly sometimes not). We are going broke, soon we won‘t be able to afford anything!


A return to the pre 1941 Isolationist policy perhaps backed with  Fortress America concept. I‘m sure there‘s more than one person south of the 49th that supports that idea.

Oh well nobody asked you guys to be top dogs, including yourselves. You just sort of fell into as an accident of history and geography (and maybe a little quantom physics). Like others before you if and when you give up the mantle of premier superpower there‘ll be someone waiting in the wings to grab it.

From the last couple of posts on this thread, anyone care to make an educated guess as to who the number one contender for the job will be?

Something tells me they won‘t be as tolerant, gracious, and well meaning (well most of the time)as the one‘s they‘ll be replacing.


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