# SIC Scale of Issue/Entitlements (merged)



## 1stcanpara

Just a question to see if anyone knows what a CIC Officer is issued for Kit. Some Officers in our Corps have everything you could imagine issued to them and others only have the basic uniforms. Is there a posted "Scale of Issue" for CIC Officers?


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## primer

What scales are you asking about

1.Dress Uniforms.We have access to order it form Logistik unicorp

2.Field Kit. It seems to change from day to day ( I have been asking the same question myself on this one )


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## Inch

Clothing stores should have all scales of issue. Just ask what you're entitled to the next time you go in.


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## 1stcanpara

...Dress Uniforms...Yes
Beret
Combats (Cadpat) (2)
Combat Boots
Wool Socks
IECS Jacket
LWTU
duffle bag (2) 

And thats about it. 

No field kit per say...sleeping bags, ruck ect. Stores tell us we are not entitled to anything else. I assume when we do a weekend exercise with Cadets, we are expected to purchase our own sleeping kit. Makes no sense as CIC Officers who have transfered to our Corps from another Corps have all this sort of kit issued to them. Does anyone realy know what we are entitled to?


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## Bean

There is (as I understand it) no current CIC specific scale of issue.  A friend in supply had inidicated that the instructions there were given is to kit CIC officers with the same basic scale as any other reservicst based on their element.  When I was kitted, I got it all.  Now trying to exchange field kit etc. has never been easy because we (the CIC) seem to be a largely unknown quantity out there without firm standards for issue of equipment.  It all seems to depend on where and what day you got kitted.


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## my72jeep

CFS8 D107 Issue to a CIC Officer But it is different at all Bases it seems to be up to the guy on the counter at the time you go in.I've learned to bring Tims coffee with me when i go in to supply.now if your lucky to get IECS gear(gortex,fleece, pollypro) don't say any thing we are not intilted to it yet and if you make any waves some one will ask for it back.


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## qjdb

This is the list that I was given from Capt Green, at ASU Chilliwack, when I was the SupO for my Unit.   Basically, he told me that if I applied for anything else, I wouldn't get it   ;D   This is the initial kitting out for Army CIC, the Air folks gets 2 weights of DEU and a set of 'work dress' and no combat clothes, and the Navy get Black and White and Naval Combats (from what I understand).

1 Beret, Green
1 Raincoat, Plastic, CF Green	        
1 Coat, CF Green	                                
1 Coat, All Weather, CF Green	        
1 Sweater, V-neck, CF Green	        
1 Shirt, Long Sleeve, Linden Green	        
2 Shirt, Short Sleeve, Linden Green	        
2 T-Shirt, Olive Green	                                
1 Trousers, CF Green	                                
1 Boots, Ankle, Black	                                
1 Shoes, Oxford, Black	                                
1 Overshoes, Rubber, Black	        
3 Socks, Wool, Grey	                                
3 Socks, Black	                                
1 Gloves, Dress, Black	                                
1 Scarf, CF Green	                                
1 Necktie, CF Green	                                
1 Belt, CF Black	                                
1 Cap, Knit, CF Green	                                
2 T-shirt, Athletic, Grey	                                
2 Shorts, Athletic, Grey	                                

All the above are replacable on the logistiks website

These items below, are only replacable from the ASU, or your stores, or whatever.

2 Undershirt, ECW, Olive green	        
2 Drawers, ECW, Olive Green	        
1 Insignia, Collar, CIC Army	        
1 Insignia, Headdress, CIC Army	        
1 Insignia, Shoulder, CIC	                                
1 Bag, Duffle	                                                        
1 Coat, Combat, Olive Green	        
1 Liner, Coat, Combat, Olive Green	        
1 Jacket, Wet Weather, Olive Green	        
1 Trousers, Wet Weather, Olive Green     
3 Shirt, Combat, CADPAT	        
3 Trousers, Combat, CADPAT	        
1 Gloves, Combat, Outer, Black	        
1 Gloves, Combat, Inner, Olive Green        
1 Cap, Knit, Olive Green	                                
1 Scarf, Olive Green	                                
2 Boots, Combat, Black	                                
2 Insoles, Combat

Now, with that being said, I know many CIC officer who have 'aquired' other kit, but whether it was issued, I have no idea.

Quentin


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## qjdb

my72jeep said:
			
		

> CFS8 D107 Issue to a CIC Officer



Do you have a quote for that?   Is it different from what I just posted?

Thanks

Quentin


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## catalyst

are you ever issued white belts or are those 'temporarily issued' on course?  I've seen some pics of courses where the course candidates wear them on final parade


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## Love793

Catalyst said:
			
		

> are you ever issued white belts or are those 'temporarily issued' on course?   I've seen some pics of courses where the course candidates wear them on final parade



White dress belts are a Temp Issue.  As for field kit (ruck, Sleeping Bag, etc...) when you are planning a ex and file your TSR, include that stuff in there.  Most cadet exs I have seen (or have been apart of) have not required rucksacks.  If you plan doing a ruck march, ask for the rucks in your TSR.  If you don't ask, you won't get.

Webbing and such are dealt with in the same way.  Tac Vests are out of the question.


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## qjdb

and the only thing that we can get temp issued as far as webbing is concerned, is a belt and canteen.

On that note, many CIC that I know have usually gone out to a surplus store and purchased a full set of webbing (myself included).   While we don't use it to pack along ammo and grenades, it can come in handy for that cadet that is 'just starving' and snivelling, if you have a couple granola bars kicking around in your c-9 pouch   

Other items that I have are a 1982 pattern rucksack (surplus store) a CADPAT modular rucksack, with assorted pouches (CPGear), and assorted other CADPAT stuff from CPGear.

Yeah, the CIC is definitely the poor cousin of the CF Reserves, as far as gear goes.   I don't want to deprive any of the Reserves or Reg Force guys their stuff, but hmmmmmm, let me think.   I wonder what is happening to all that webbing that is getting turned in for the Tac Vest.   Do you think that it will be coming my way?   I doubt it.   I wil still have to go out to the surplus store and pay my $ for it.

Ah well, I didn't get in the CIC to make money, or get fancy gear. :warstory:

Quentin


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## captain66

Yes there is a scale of issue for CIC Officers. And yes, some support bases have given CIC officers the same kit that Reserve officers get from their scale of issue. I sent a memo to RCSU(P) Major Braun complaining of the imbalance in the issue of CIC gear. For army types, when CADPAT came out we were issued 3 sets, no jackets. Shortly after they started issuing it, they cut in down to 2 sets. The scale of issue says three sets. The rain jacket I rec'd on re-issue (coming off SHR) I am sure came from the Korean war. It was so well used it stunk. My combat boots were used. This was from ASU Chilliwack. Other CIC officers have rec'd tremendous support from other bases but those of us from ASU Chilliwack have only rec'd our exact entitlement (or less) and nothing more. Mac Green (who has now retired) was not impressed with my memo to Major Braun. He thought I was slagging him and his staff. I wasn't. I was complaining of the imbalance and crappy   kit I was issued. We should do something about this and get some action. We now wear old combat jackets with new CADPAT.  ??? What is up with that? When will we get new jackets?  :rage:


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## primer

Welcome to the CIC. We are lucky to get some kit. I am in Ottawa our supply is at NDHQ it seems from who is behind the counter gives it out. I saw a Air force CIC officer getting his Field Kit and was amazed in what he was getting issued. I asked his what he needed a T.V for he said i don't know. We all don't need th Gucci Kit do we :


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## PViddy

I am Airforce and got 2 sets of the older style of CADPAT but did not get a cap badge.  ya win some, ya loose some!

PV


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## primer

something new to think about do we get this new equipment or don't we 
"but we are not operational think about it" 
http://vcds.dwan.dnd.ca/vcds-exec/pubs/canforgen/2005/016-05_e.asp


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## Ltmel

wow.
how long have you been around to Not know wether or not we have a scale of issue.  Everyone has a scale of issue.  And yes, there is only one.  The "problem" is with sup pers who are not familiar with our MOC.  All they know is that we are reservists, so some people get issued with everything but are too greedy to mention that a Kevlar helmet is of absolutely no use to them.  I do agree with the comment on our wearing OD four season jackets with Cadpat.  We  look retarded.  I actually got dragged into the adj's office this summer, and asked what I though I was doing mixing uniforms.  Nice.  Did he really think I liked wearing the old bushcap?


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## qjdb

primer said:
			
		

> something new to think about do we get this new equipment or don't we
> "but we are not operational think about it"
> http://vcds.dwan.dnd.ca/vcds-exec/pubs/canforgen/2005/016-05_e.asp



Primer, would you be able to copy this text here, or via PM?  I don't have dwan access.

Thanks

Quentin


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## ctjj.stevenson

I would recommend people to read ERCO 701 (www.cadets.net/est/intro_e.asp - look it up in the library and then ERCO, you will be able to find it) which explains what should be issued to CIC officers. It has the references of D01, D02 and D03 I believe.

This is what I got for my initial issue at ASU Longue-Pointe:

1 Naval NCM forge cap
1 Naval beret (black)
1 CIC naval cap badge metal
1 pair of gloves - leather
1 Tuque
1 Neck tie Black
2 PT t-shirts grey
1 PT sweat shirt - grey
1 Longue sleeve shirt - white
2 short sleeve shirts - white, naval officer
3 naval combat shirts
2 naval combat jackets
2 top of long johns
1 tunic, naval
1 trench coat - naval
1 raincoat - naval
1 white trouser belt
1 black trouser belt
1 pair of black trousers
1 pair of white trousers
3 naval combat trousers
2 pairs of PT shorts - grey
1 pair of PT sweat pants - grey
2 pair of long john - bottoms
3 pairs of wool socks
3 pairs of black socks
1 pair of white socks
1 pair of safety boots (parade boots)
1 pair of black oxfords 
1 pair of white oxfords
1 pair of NCdt shoulder boards

Later on, I got my naval parka when it became an issued item of naval CIC officers, however, they gave me at my initial issue an old army combat parka, which I've never used. 

ASU Longue-Pointe forgot to give me my slip ons, the screws for my shoulder boards, and they forgot to order my name tags (NCD and DEU). 

I hope that this could help naval officers out there. 

Good day!


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## Big Foot

For those of you who are complaining about not receiving the Goretex combat jacket, its not just a CIC thing. I am an as yet unqualified officer cadet at RMC and I have been told that I am not entitled to, nor will i be until i'm comissioned, which is 3 years from now... and i'm reg force


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## my72jeep

I've never had a problem getting kit when I ask nice. but there are a few of us who walk in demanding this that and the other thing,and acting like gods gift to the military and that makes it hard to even get what we are entitled to.


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## PViddy

> I would recommend people to read ERCO 701 (www.cadets.net/est/intro_e.asp - look it up in the library and then ERCO, you will be able to find it) which explains what should be issued to CIC officers. It has the references of D01, D02 and D03 I believe.



unfortunately that may have no relevance here in Ontario, as we are central region (CRCO's, CRCSO's) and that is an ERCO (Eastern Region Cadet Orders).  i know what i am entitled to as an Airforce Officer (CIC), i know it is probably published somewhere, although i havn't seen it yet.  then again i do only have the thin stripe and tons to learn.

PV


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## my72jeep

PViddy said:
			
		

> unfortunately that may have no relevance here in Ontario, as we are central region (CRCO's, CRCSO's) and that is an ERCO (Eastern Region Cadet Orders).   i know what i am entitled to as an Airforce Officer (CIC), i know it is probably published somewhere, although i havn't seen it yet.   then again i do only have the thin stripe and tons to learn.
> 
> PV


CFS 8 D107 or D108 its in one of them and all units used to have a copy back when we still orderd with 2302's from supply.


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## Bean

2302's, now there's a blast from the past.  I'll chack and see if I have a copy in my records at the unit tonight.  I've been cleaning up files and came across alot of the recent supply info totally mis-filed by one of my predecessors.


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## my72jeep

CFS 8 is the supply book for cadets it states what a cadet unit, det, training center, or summer camp is entitled to 107-108 is the part that says what a cic officer is entitled to.


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## PViddy

Sweet, any of this online ?

PV


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## myself.only

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Perhaps when new pants are issued they can issue some common sense to those that need it.



Just my luck.... CIC not entitled to either item.  :facepalm:


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## Sig_Des

myself.only said:
			
		

> Just my luck.... CIC not entitled to either item.  :facepalm:



*not being facetious*

Why would they need them when there's tons of operational pers that should be getting them first? Like OD to cadpat, I'm sure it'll eventually trickle in.


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## Franko

Beadwindow 7 said:
			
		

> *not being facetious*
> 
> Why would they need them when there's tons of operational pers that should be getting them first? Like OD to cadpat, I'm sure it'll eventually trickle in.



LCF


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## PViddy

> Just my luck.... CIC not entitled to either item



"not entitled" is incorrect as this is just a design change.  Not being issued when old stock is still available, i would agree with.

PV


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## PViddy

> Why would they need them when there's tons of operational pers that should be getting them first? Like OD to cadpat, I'm sure it'll eventually trickle in



Exactly.


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## JorgSlice

myself.only said:
			
		

> Just my luck.... CIC not entitled to either item.  :facepalm:



/rant

The really big piss off in last fiscal year was the fact that, understandably CIC use only 2 uniforms for everything DEU and CADPAT but they don't require anything fancy or functional just to babysit a bunch of kids. (yes I'm aware there's more to it than that and some have prior mil svc... Etc.)

When I enrolled in the PRes, the 9erD enrolled in the CIC 3 days later. It took the PRes 3 months to fill my initial issue and there are things that I am still continually exchanging due to issues in sizing or have yet to receive entirely: I don't understand how when I told the Sup Tech that I wear a 14 collar, small/med T-shirt; I end up with 16 collar, everything in large. Boots are 2 sizes too big (then they took my issue boots because there aren't any). Yes, I am aware that CADPAT pants only come in 4-inch increments but to give a guy that barely fills a 30 waist size 38 pants is ***-backwards. I also still do not have DEU.

The Missus however received all of her CADPAT and DEU with 2 pairs of boots and shoes for each with all the bells and whistles the CIC are entitled to within 2wks of enrolment. I was a victim of the BMQ/SQ in Grey Coveralls and Running Shoes (or WWB)

I know some if not most RegF pers present and former still consider the PRes as the unwanted retarded red-headed step-child of the CF; but it's a huge morale killer.

/endrant


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## myself.only

Beadwindow 7 said:
			
		

> Why would they need them when there's tons of operational pers that should be getting them first?



Totally agree guys.  And honestly I was aiming for a joke about entitlement to common sense. 


As for LCF... no try uniformity with the rest of the CAF. 

_Edited: to explain a joke._


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## myself.only

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> /rant
> 
> The really big piss off in last fiscal year was the fact that, understandably CIC use only 2 uniforms for everything DEU and CADPAT but they don't require anything fancy or functional just to babysit a bunch of kids. (yes I'm aware there's more to it than that and some have prior mil svc... Etc.)
> /endrant



OK my  :2c:

Guess that depends on what you define as fancy and functional.
One of my unit's OCdts was told she was not entitled to head dress as part of her initial issue.  I've been told I'm not entitled to a coat of any type. 
But then again, yes I have met rare CIC officers who claim they went to CFB X and got rucks and everything else imaginable. 

In the above cases, and what happened to you, I don't think we can blame anything other than a supply system that is inconsistent and inefficient.
And I'm appalled with these stories about Recruits undergoing trg without the proper boots. 
But I don't think the blame rests with those people who got issued proper boots.

Furthermore, as an officer who spent most of his time only wearing combat clothing because I bought it from surplus stores like my cadets, I would put it to you that CIC officers are members of the CAF doing their task in their trade and should have the proper CAF uniform for the job.  
Just like everybody else in the CAF and that should be the endstate.
And if we start taking from one component or trade to issue to another we're not fixing the problem... next it will be socks or pants.


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## OldSolduer

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> /rant
> 
> The really big piss off in last fiscal year was the fact that, understandably CIC use only 2 uniforms for everything DEU and CADPAT but they don't require anything fancy or functional just to babysit a bunch of kids. (yes I'm aware there's more to it than that and some have prior mil svc... Etc.)
> 
> 
> /endrant



Maybe an apology is in order for the "babysitting" comment.


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## Franko

myself.only said:
			
		

> As for LCF... no try uniformity with the rest of the CAF.



I'll take a shot in the dark that this quip wa directed at me. Too bad you did not read the entire response including the quote provided.

In the context of my post I quoted someone saying:



			
				Beadwindow 7 said:
			
		

> *not being facetious*
> 
> *Why would they need them when there's tons of operational pers that should be getting them first?*Like OD to cadpat, I'm sure it'll eventually trickle in.



To wit I responded:



			
				Nerf herder said:
			
		

> LCF



I recall when CADPAT first came out at clothing stores, there was a few CIC Officers standing in line trying to exchange their OD to CADPAT. I'm surmising that seeing that the condition their combats were in the supply tech turned them away because they were still in great shape.

It was a blatant attempt to get the LCF of the new kit and nothing more. I'm sure with the release of the new style combats there will be someone out there trying to get some before their kit is really due to be exchanged.

I'm not by any stretch of the imagination saying that all CIC are like that, but we all know someone out there who would try it even though their kit is still GTG.

The last cadet corps I worked with the CO demanded that all CIC Officers wore DEU3B or 3C dependant on the weather for parade nights. His thoughts on this policy was "How can we set an example if the kids are in their tunics and we're standing around in combats". 

Too bad more aren't like that IMHO...but I digress as I'm taking the thread OT.

Regards


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## stealthylizard

That's what it was back when I was in cadets back in the early 90's.  Everyone wore DEU's except for our QM.  Which made perfect sense, since he was squirreled away down in a dirty legion basement most of the time.


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## armyvern

Nerf herder said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> I recall when CADPAT first came out at clothing stores, there was a few CIC Officers standing in line trying to exchange their OD to CADPAT. I'm surmising that seeing that the condition their combats were in the supply tech turned them away because they were still in great shape.
> 
> It was a blatant attempt to get the LCF of the new kit and nothing more. I'm sure with the release of the new style combats there will be someone out there trying to get some before their kit is really due to be exchanged.
> ...
> 
> Regards



Nah; we turned them away because they simply were not f'n entitled to them.  Fact of the matter was that they were/are the lowest priority for _*operational*_ kit.

That seems to be the big bit that most of them fail to grasp; that operational kit is issued on an entitlement basis to operational pers first and foremost and that once those pers are looked after ... the rest of the non-operatinal folks _*may*_ follow.  Time to put on their big-girl panties and understand and accept that 'lil factoid.

Had a few of them throw temper tantrums at the counter stating how they were "part of the PRes now and therefore entitled to same kit" to which we had a printed scale of entitlement at the counter that we'd use to point out the "*see note 4" caveat and then the reading of note 4 stating "all PRes except members of the CIC".  There were enough of them trying to skive through for purely "LCF" purposes that we actually had to do that ... and then argue with them when they got caught.  Sad.

Want the same _*operational*_ kit as the rest of us who actually do _*operations*_, then wait your turn at the back of the bus until the operational folks have it.  Don't like that wait?  CT because, like it or not, one of these things is NOT like the others.


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## myself.only

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> ...the big bit that most of them  fail to grasp; that operational kit is issued on an entitlement basis to operational pers first and foremost and that once those pers are looked after ... the rest of the non-operatinal folks _*may*_ follow.



Hey, if we're going to jump into sweeping generalizations, I can't say I've ever met a CIC officer that thought that they took priority over operational pers on anything.

Most of the CIC I've met went to clothing stores on a rumour after seeing another officer wearing item X, not surprising since they never see anything official about new kit and entitlement changes.  And then their experience at clothing stores is a roll of the dice largely attributed to whether or not they got the right supply tech.

You say it's colossal ego. 
I'd say frustration, next to no communication, and inconsistent service.

Of course, no matter which of us is correct, I'd wager that mutual respect would help overcome all of these troubles.
Make of that what you will.


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## armyvern

myself.only said:
			
		

> Hey, if we're going to jump into sweeping generalizations, I can't say I've ever met a CIC officer that thought that they took priority over operational pers on anything.
> 
> Most of the CIC I've met went to clothing stores on a rumour after seeing another officer wearing item X, not surprising since they never see anything official about new kit and entitlement changes.  And then their experience at clothing stores is a roll of the dice largely attributed to whether or not they got the right supply tech.
> 
> You say it's colossal ego.
> I'd say frustration, next to no communication, and inconsistent service.
> 
> Of course, no matter which of us is correct, I'd wager that mutual respect would help overcome all of these troubles.
> Make of that what you will.



As a sup tech who has worked the clothing counter as a tech, later been the CSG supervisor, and then later the MPO through numerous and many CTS initial issues - I have met MANY.  So many, in fact, that we had to print the scale and keep it at the counter to point out that factoid I mentioned to them.  They aren't a one-off in my world of work.

They never saw anything on entitlement changes exactly because their entitlement did NOT change; ergo:  there was zero to notify them about.  Makes sense to me.  Although, they also could also read CANFORGENs (and Routine Orders where we published CTS initial issue entitlements and priorities) like the rest of us are expected to do.

Big girl panties.  I respect most CIC Officers, but I do not respect the whiney LCF CIC Officers who throw tantrums and "I AM PRes therefore I AM entitled", and even outright lie about their status as some I have had actually claimed that they were not CIC, but 1RNBR etc, as they try to skive their way into kit they are not entitled to.  Blame it on the "right sup tech" if you want when really it's more aptly a matter of sup tech not confirming their actual status component in the PRes prior to issuing non-entitled kit.  Fact is:  those CIC actually got "the wrong sup sup tech".


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## catalyst

I too have met many. The LCF is quite present, unfortunately.  The lying is just bad, and I have observed, and corrected members trying to pass themselves off as RMC Cadets in order to get shiny kit. 

I would like to exchange my pants - they are a bit thin (6ish years old, and before anyone stands up and goes "OMG you did not combat in those pants), well, I have worn them for active activities in the bush....for several summers).  I could care less if they are the new pants, or the old pants, as long as I do, in fact, get pants. If the CF sees fit to offer me a uniform, then I will take what they give me and what I am entitled to. 

Oh, and boots. But I realize that there is a boot shortage and ergo, the supplies other than too small steel toes should probably go to the people who need it. I just bought swats and nobody has said boo about it. 

The nature of our job and component makes us a lower priority and this should be understood by our branch. It does not make us lesser officers (despite some people's needs to feel that way) but one with different priorities, functions and tasks.  If that means the suptech hands generation 1 Cadpat to me and some new pants to the pres member next to me? I'm just happy I have pants! And that the suptech didn't throw them at my head some guy did one time that I had to get a new jacket because it ripped on some left over barbed wire. 

(Oh, and I wear my DEU more often than combats, except in the summer)


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## myself.only

ArmySailor said:
			
		

> The nature of our job and component makes us a lower priority and this should be understood by our branch. It does not make us lesser officers (despite some people's needs to feel that way) but one with different priorities, functions and tasks.



Totally Agreed.... not sure what Corps / Sqns you people work with where this attitude isn't the overwhelming majority. 



			
				ArmySailor said:
			
		

> If that means the suptech hands generation 1 Cadpat to me and some new pants to the pres member next to me? I'm just happy I have pants!



Now that is the attitude of the officers I've worked with. We're all quite pleased with our Gen 1 CADPAT.  



			
				ArmySailor said:
			
		

> And that the suptech didn't throw them at my head some guy did one time that I had to get a new jacket because it ripped on some left over barbed wire.



Okay IMHO you're a little too easygoing when it comes to counterservice.


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## dapaterson

For the record: COATS are not PRes.  Different sub-components of the Reserve Force.  Anyone who claims otherwise needs to re-read the CFAOs...


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## catalyst

myself.only said:
			
		

> Totally Agreed.... not sure what Corps / Sqns you people work with where this attitude isn't the overwhelming majority.
> 
> Now that is the attitude of the officers I've worked with. We're all quite pleased with our Gen 1 CADPAT.
> 
> Okay IMHO you're a little too easygoing when it comes to counterservice.
> [/quote
> 
> Not necessarily my corps but I have seen it happen - I have worked at several CSTCs, the HQ level, etc. We are our own worst enemy in many ways.
> 
> Not too easygoing ,just know when to pick a battle and when not to.  Sometimes its best to  let the chain of command deal with things in a more appropriate setting.  My dealings with supply folks have been overwhelmingly positive other than the one occasion. There's a difference between asking if one is entitled (and asking if one is entitled as per scale of issue, why it is not being issued) and demanding that a suptech issue it to you.


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## armyvern

ArmySailor said:
			
		

> ... There's a difference between asking if one is entitled (and asking if one is entitled as per scale of issue, why it is not being issued) and demanding that a suptech issue it to you.  , or lying to get something you're not entitled to.



Finished that off for you; Bang on the point.


----------



## myself.only

Well it seems we're all in agreement with what is the appropriate approach.
But I can't speak for CSTCs and HQ staff, hopefully someone there would be providing clear guidance on this.  And I don't mean the sup techs, I mean the supervisors of these CIC officers. 

ArmyVern, with so few CIC having access to DIN I'm afraid you'll be stuck having a monopoly of information WRT entitlements and when operational personnel have been taken care of and CIC can get issued any specific piece of kit. 

And somewhat more in line with the original topic, at least I can rest assured that if in due course I get my hands on the ICU, well by then maybe it'll be clear whether or not I should blouse the pants.  ;D


----------



## armyvern

myself.only said:
			
		

> Well it seems we're all in agreement with what is the appropriate approach.
> But I can't speak for CSTCs and HQ staff, hopefully someone there would be providing clear guidance on this.  And I don't mean the sup techs, I mean the supervisors of these CIC officers.
> 
> ArmyVern, with so few CIC having access to DIN I'm afraid you'll be stuck having a monopoly of information WRT entitlements and when operational personnel have been taken care of and CIC can get issued any specific piece of kit.



Well, would it surprise you to learn that most of the jr members of the RegF infantry don't have access either; that's why there's little inventions called printers and circ slips ... for those supervisors that you mentioned to use.  Most places still post a hard copy of routine orders onto their boards as well.


----------



## quadrapiper

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Well, would it surprise you to learn that most of the jr members of the RegF infantry don't have access either; that's why there's little inventions called printers and circ slips ... for those supervisors that you mentioned to use.  Most places still post a hard copy of routine orders onto their boards as well.


The problem is getting that information out to the Class A contingent at corps and squadrons: very hit and miss whether relevant CANFORGENS and the like make it (on implementation) from the DWAN to anything accessible by the Class A member or remain anywhere easy to reference.


----------



## OldSolduer

Thats why we have O Gps - to pass on information and orders.



			
				quadrapiper said:
			
		

> The problem is getting that information out to the Class A contingent at corps and squadrons: very hit and miss whether relevant CANFORGENS and the like make it (on implementation) from the DWAN to anything accessible by the Class A member or remain anywhere easy to reference.


----------



## myself.only

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Thats why we have O Gps - to pass on information and orders.



Even if Det staff held OGps, I don't think there'd be many Corps / sqns that could send a rep to travel into the city to HQ during the day to receive the info.


----------



## OldSolduer

myself.only said:
			
		

> Even if Det staff held OGps, I don't think there'd be many Corps / sqns that could send a rep to travel into the city to HQ during the day to receive the info.


Ever hear of the telephone?


----------



## PViddy

I'm sorry friends (CIC folks).  I'm not buying the "i don't know what we're entitled to", "that information doesnt make it to me".  Our trade is unique sometimes from the stand point of comms, if we just sat around and waited for some of this information to make it to our LHQ level, we would still be waiting.  I know the scales are readily distributed in Ontario (not through DWAN) and the last time when i wasn't sure about something, i emailed my C of C and asked for the latest scale and had it in 5 minutes, it's your own due dilligence.

cheers,

PV


----------



## Scott

PViddy said:
			
		

> I'm sorry friends (CIC folks).  I'm not buying the "i don't know what we're entitled to", "that information doesnt make it to me".  Our trade is unique sometimes from the stand point of comms, if we just sat around and waited for some of this information to make it to our LHQ level, we would still be waiting.  I know the scales are readily distributed in Ontario (not through DWAN) and the last time when i wasn't sure about something, i emailed my C of C and asked for the latest scale and had it in 5 minutes, it's your own due dilligence.
> 
> cheers,
> 
> PV



That reeks of responsibility or something!

I hope others can follow your example, but the excuses seem to win out


----------



## myself.only

PViddy said:
			
		

> I'm sorry friends (CIC folks).  I'm not buying the "i don't know what we're entitled to", "that information doesnt make it to me".  Our trade is unique sometimes from the stand point of comms, if we just sat around and waited for some of this information to make it to our LHQ level, we would still be waiting.  I know the scales are readily distributed in Ontario (not through DWAN) and the last time when i wasn't sure about something, i emailed my C of C and asked for the latest scale and had it in 5 minutes, it's your own due dilligence.
> 
> cheers,
> 
> PV



Well, that's not been my experience in Ontario at all. 

But my point was if a CIC officer enters clothing stores looking for an item that he or she is not entitled to, it might just be an honest inquiry rather than a scheme or trick because they should know better.


----------



## myself.only

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Ever hear of the telephone?



Heard of it. 
Used it. 
I wish I could say that I always get a reply when I do.


----------



## myself.only

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Well, would it surprise you to learn that most of the jr members of the RegF infantry don't have access either; that's why there's little inventions called printers and circ slips ... for those supervisors that you mentioned to use.  Most places still post a hard copy of routine orders onto their boards as well.



Well with the supervisors of the CIC officers lying about their branch to get what they're not entitled to, I think it's ethics not info that is in short supply and leadership they need.  
Printers, boards and circ slips notwithstanding.


----------



## dale622

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Well, would it surprise you to learn that most of the jr members of the RegF infantry don't have access either; that's why there's little inventions called printers and circ slips ... for those supervisors that you mentioned to use.  Most places still post a hard copy of routine orders onto their boards as well.



 You mean that random printed piece of knowledge that no one pays attention to? Just because it's posted up doesn't mean people take personal initiative to look.


----------



## George Wallace

bananaman said:
			
		

> You mean that random printed piece of knowledge that no one pays attention to? Just because it's posted up doesn't mean people take personal initiative to look.



The one that is a "Chargeable Offence" not to have read.


----------



## MJP

George Wallace said:
			
		

> The one that is a "Chargeable Offence" not to have read.



ahahahahaha.  Would love to see that one.  Just a sec I have to laugh some more about how silly that sounds.


----------



## George Wallace

Laugh all you want.

They are Orders.


----------



## OldSolduer

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Laugh all you want.
> 
> They are Orders.



Ignorance of rules and refs is not an excuse.


----------



## Northalbertan

PViddy said:
			
		

> I'm sorry friends (CIC folks).  I'm not buying the "i don't know what we're entitled to", "that information doesn't make it to me".  Our trade is unique sometimes from the stand point of comms, if we just sat around and waited for some of this information to make it to our LHQ level, we would still be waiting.  I know the scales are readily distributed in Ontario (not through DWAN) and the last time when i wasn't sure about something, i emailed my C of C and asked for the latest scale and had it in 5 minutes, it's your own due dilligence.
> 
> cheers,
> 
> PV



In NW it's available on cadetnet, as I believe it is for all regions in the country.  The latest scale is there.  Not hard to find with a minimal amount of effort.  

I just had a new member who went down to Wainwright for their initial issue.  There was a little confusion at first, the tech hadn't dealt with CIC previously, but once the scale was provided no problems.  They are a pretty good group to deal with.  Of course we weren't asking for the moon or anything we weren't entitled to.  We are authorized enough kit to do our jobs effectively, keeping in mind our primary job is to lead kids.  I can't imagine a situation where we would need a tac vest or helmet to do our job.  It is just as easy to understand why we are not and should not be at the top of the priority list for new kit.  

Vern, I have seen an example of what you were talking about, unfortunately.  I had the misfortune of coming in behind a complete *&%^stick of a CIC officer in Edmonton when I went for my initial issue.  He was literally freaking out because the supply tech wouldn't give him a tac vest, really losing his mind.  I felt embarrassed to share my trade with the man.  I can only imagine what the supply tech was thinking when he was finished with him and I stepped up.  Oh Christ another one.  My experience thereafter was very positive in spite of the jerk in front of me.

It really sucks that the rest of us are jumbled up with and judged by the behavior of a few bad apples.

NorthAlbertan


----------



## dale622

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Ignorance of rules and refs is not an excuse.



Never said it was an excuse. Just stating a fact. Just because a sign or brief is posted doesn't mean troops will read. All the troops give a damn about, is the end of day points.


----------



## McG

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Ignorance of rules and refs is not an excuse.



Ignorance of the Law is not a defence.  But, you will find legal officers advise that rules and regulations are a different situation.
The command needs to show it has made reasonable efforts to make rules and regulations known.  That is why CANFORGENs and similar such higher orders are coppied and published into routine orders.  It is why changes to standing orders are announced in routine orders and it is why routine orders are hanging on bulletin boards.

I have never known guys to be charged for not reading routine orders, but I have known many to be found guilty because they did things (or failed to do things) as directed in routine orders which were posted in communal locations of unit lines.  I have also (unfortunately) seen guys get off for blatantly wrong acts because a unit failed to communicate directions in a way that was demonstrably universal.


----------



## dcs

A little off topic, but on similar train of thought. When cadet units (CIC's) do not secure uniforms from cadets leaving, and simply feel that they should get lots of new every year it causes me to loose faith in their training, ethics,  and the system.

Sons' first CO aggressively went after, followed up with phone call and letter (indicating that individuals were only using while in cadets and owned by DND) and had almost all returned. Only required a few uniform parts each year.    

Next CO did nothing and ordered well over a hundred each year, including boots etc.  If ran out of funds went to detachment and wined and got more.  He even spoke of how he was going to go and get new gear that came out and full winter wear.  This went on for a number of years and yet no one seemed to say anything about it.   A unit of about 125 cadets ( a lot leave very early so this is a net figure) goes from ordering perhaps 20 new uniforms a year to ordering 80 and no one questions???   Sons in the reg force tell me that when they retire out they may get to keep their dress uniform but that everything else has to be returned. (and should be)

Having been a CIC I have heard on numerous occasions the absolute feeling of entitlement and discussions as to how they can work the system or get items they do not need or are not entitled to.  When son returned to his air cadet squadron and was talking to a few of his formed squadron mates about his training and BMOQ being 16 weeks, a CIC walking by interrupted and stated that "he was able to do the same thing in two weeks".  The sad thing is that he really seemed to believe that his training of this length was the same or equivalent. 

Some CIC's at Trenton for Cadet camps complaining about their accommodation and wanting the same as reg force Captains and Majors.

There are some great, dedicated CIC individuals in the program, and there are some that simply should not be there.  But please institute a system of tracking and controlling uniforms............   At the squadron I was at, and I am sure many more it is costing a lot of money.   With the exception of the boots the kids don't want them anyway... and a lot of the boots end up collecting dust or sold to surplus stores.  I know of at least one squadron that secures them immediately after annual parade for those aging out or those not returning.

All of the cadets are on the DND system. Track the uniforms in a similar manner.  Believe me the kids will respect the uniform and staff a lot more instead of it being a running joke.   What do you thing the parents think about DND and budget/cut backs when they see this happening.

Cudos to those CO's and CIC's that are doing it right and handling appropriately.   I don't know how the others are able to get away with what is happening and being paid to do so.


----------



## myself.only

Northalbertan said:
			
		

> In NW it's available on cadetnet, as I believe it is for all regions in the country.  The latest scale is there.  Not hard to find with a minimal amount of effort.



Yes  :nod: that recent change will definitely be a boon for all once we all get up to speed, probably the only really effective means of getting info out to everybody including those Corps you hear about in the boonies with 2-3 staff where their "admin office" is a pair of boxes in the CO's trunk.  



			
				Northalbertan said:
			
		

> I just had a new member who went down to Wainwright for their initial issue.  There was a little confusion at first, the tech hadn't dealt with CIC previously, but once the scale was provided no problems.  They are a pretty good group to deal with.  Of course we weren't asking for the moon or anything we weren't entitled to.  We are authorized enough kit to do our jobs effectively, keeping in mind our primary job is to lead kids.  I can't imagine a situation where we would need a tac vest or helmet to do our job.  It is just as easy to understand why we are not and should not be at the top of the priority list for new kit.



Well, I'd be lying if I was to agree I can't imagine a situation where we would need a tac vest.  After all, I frequently use the item it replaced - my purchased 82 pattern FFO - when directly supervising cadets in the field. 

But the key point, I think, is that the whole attitude of (a) demanding kit beyond our entitlement and (b) not accepting that we are not priority for issuing items that we are entitled to, is simply unacceptable.. And furthermore, it should really be a red flag up the chain that the officer is probably not suited for delivering anyone any leadership program. 




			
				Northalbertan said:
			
		

> It really sucks that the rest of us are jumbled up with and judged by the behavior of a few bad apples.
> 
> NorthAlbertan



Well, I cannot agree with you more of this point.  And I hate to see those bad apples then described as how "most CIC officers" are.
Well, hopefully that stigma can goad those of us who know better into sorting out the bad apples and those noobs who might emulate them.


----------



## myself.only

dcs said:
			
		

> A little off topic, but on similar train of thought. When cadet units (CIC's) do not secure uniforms from cadets leaving, and simply feel that they should get lots of new every year it causes me to loose faith in their training, ethics,  and the system.
> 
> Sons' first CO aggressively went after, followed up with phone call and letter (indicating that individuals were only using while in cadets and owned by DND) and had almost all returned. Only required a few uniform parts each year.
> 
> All of the cadets are on the DND system. Track the uniforms in a similar manner.  Believe me the kids will respect the uniform and staff a lot more instead of it being a running joke.   What do you thing the parents think about DND and budget/cut backs when they see this happening.
> 
> Cudos to those CO's and CIC's that are doing it right and handling appropriately.   I don't know how the others are able to get away with what is happening and being paid to do so.



Please bear in mind, direction from higher is one phone call and one letter. No communication that can be construed as aggressive, or threatening legal action or any other penalty, or even claiming that anyone is being held responsible for the kit (except the CO). Your letter is to list the missing pieces of kit and ask the parents for their help in recovering it. 

Our personal opinions aside - and I also hate to see uniforms not get returned, anything more than that is not deemed to be "handling appropriately".


----------



## 392

myself.only said:
			
		

> After all, I frequently use the item it replaced - my purchased 82 pattern FFO - when directly supervising cadets in the field.



I'm curious - why do you need full fighting order to supervise cadets?


----------



## my72jeep

bananaman said:
			
		

> You mean that random printed piece of knowledge that no one pays attention to? Just because it's posted up doesn't mean people take personal initiative to look.


My HQ is very diligent  at posting RO's on the wall in the OR 730km away. emailing them to out laying units hit or miss.


----------



## myself.only

Well the usual reason, load bearing.  When not carrying a ruck, it seems the most effective way to keep my hands free while carrying canteen(s), small first aid kit, rain gear, and all the other stuff that's nice to keep handy while secretly wondering how much longer we'll go before the candidate realizes he's on the wrong bearing.


----------



## my72jeep

Northalbertan said:
			
		

> In NW it's available on cadetnet, as I believe it is for all regions in the country.  The latest scale is there.  Not hard to find with a minimal amount of effort.
> 
> I just had a new member who went down to Wainwright for their initial issue.  There was a little confusion at first, the tech hadn't dealt with CIC previously, but once the scale was provided no problems.  They are a pretty good group to deal with.  Of course we weren't asking for the moon or anything we weren't entitled to.  We are authorized enough kit to do our jobs effectively, keeping in mind our primary job is to lead kids.  I can't imagine a situation where we would need a tac vest or helmet to do our job.  It is just as easy to understand why we are not and should not be at the top of the priority list for new kit.
> 
> Vern, I have seen an example of what you were talking about, unfortunately.  I had the misfortune of coming in behind a complete *&%^stick of a CIC officer in Edmonton when I went for my initial issue.  He was literally freaking out because the supply tech wouldn't give him a tac vest, really losing his mind.  I felt embarrassed to share my trade with the man.  I can only imagine what the supply tech was thinking when he was finished with him and I stepped up.  Oh Christ another one.  My experience thereafter was very positive in spite of the jerk in front of me.
> 
> It really sucks that the rest of us are jumbled up with and judged by the behavior of a few bad apples.
> 
> NorthAlbertan


Been there. but I've also walked in to supply with the latest scale and the CANFORGEN telling me I can have it. (fleece) I was given a used jacket that the zipper was n/s and a pair of bottoms that I swear some one had a crap in. When I questioned these items I was told "You want fleece that's all you get, take it or leave it"


----------



## jpjohnsn

I've been in the CIC for 23 years and, despite working at a couple of CSTCs and a few squadrons, this proverbial tantrumming CIC member is beyond my experience.  I HAVE seen OCdts getting offered kit far beyond their entitlements - not because they were scamming it but because the supply tech honestly didn't know the scale of issue.  Case in point, an CIC army OCdt on the old Trenton Air Cadet Camp slate (when they had one) who was offered everything - and I mean EVERYTHING imaginable from Trenton supply.  To his credit, he turned pretty much all of it down.

As was said before, CANFORGENs are simply not directly accessible to most cadet units and our HQs don't seem to filter that info down reliably.  The admonition here to pick up a phone is all well and good but you have to know you're missing a piece of info before you can inquire about it. Frankly, I've read more CANFORGENs here than at my own unit.

Cadetnet is a fine resource but info isn't always filed in the places you'd expect and isn't always updated in a timely manner.  The lag between the promulgation of the latest scales of issue and when it arrived on cadetnet was a LONG time.   And while some Supplies may have a scale of issue handy so we scheming CIC don't get tac vests,  I also bring along my own copy because, more than once, I was told i wasn't entitled to something the scale of issue said I was.

Now, the LCF issue... Well, I don't really care about the bits and bobs.  I've always believed that we, as CIC, should wear the most similar order of dress to what we tell the cadets to wear.  They're in jacket and tie, I'm in jacket and tie.  They are in short sleeves "summer dress", so am I.  Being air, I also rail against the few air CIC members who insist on  wearing berets in DEU when the cadets wear wedges.  Similar orders of dress down the line.

In the field or on the range, etc, we're expected to be in uniform.  Prior to CADPAT, we were entitled to nothing. If you saw someone in OG 107s, it's because they bought them at a surplus store and the general condition reflected that.  Yeah, we were quite aware of that and were just as angry and embarrassed by that ourselves but what exactly were we supposed to do about it, wear DEU in training areas in Blackdown?  Hell, I've had to resort to wearing the OG green longjohns under a set of OG 107 pants late into the spring because they were so sheer they almost qualified as lingere!  So you should excuse the enthusiasm when we get a message saying that a) we're going to have CADPAT issued to us and b) start making the appointments to go get them.  Are we supposed to feel guilty because we're allowed to join the queue for issue despite whatever other supply issues are out there?  Nope, not me.   It's not that I believe my need is greater or even equal to someone who needs them for operations - no that's not it.  But if I'm told to go get it and it's there and I'm issued it, I refuse to feel guilty about it.

Now, when (and if) any of our folks show up and start acting like tools, did anyone ever think to get it passed to their chain of command?  I know that any of the times I was CO of a cadet squadron, I would have kicked the keister of any spoiled brat member of my staff into next month.  

Now, coming to the Supply counter from the other side, I've also run into some Supply Techs who like to play their petty little power-trippy games because I'm "only CIC" - hence the copy of the scale of issue I bring.   One summer I was working in Trenton for the summer and, literally, walked through the bottom of one my oxfords.  I went to supply and was told I would have to go back to Borden to get new ones issued.  Fair ball, says I and then strolls over to cash sales (when we still had it) and was told I couldn't even BUY a pair because I was CIC and Reg Force people posted to Trenton *might* need them (the shelf had many pairs in my size, by the way).   

If you advocate for yourself, your experience ends up on places like this as an example of a CIC officer trying to throw their weight around.  You defer and your experience ends up in places like this as an anecdote of a Cpl who put one over on a CIC officer.  That's some catch, that Catch 22.


----------



## GAP

Uh...not that it's not interesting reading, but does this thread not belong in the Cadet forum so the information is distributed there?


----------



## myself.only

GAP said:
			
		

> Uh...not that it's not interesting reading, but does this thread not belong in the Cadet forum so the information is distributed there?



IMHO, I'd say it belongs here in the uniform forum since the thread deals with the interactions between sup techs and CIC officers on the subjects of uniforms. 

To shift it to the cadet forum would be excluding half that equation: sup techs such as ArmyVern who has provided significant insight into what sup techs are putting up with.
In fact, while the implication is that only CIC officers to try exceed their entitlement or line up for kit based on LCF, going to clothing stores is an experience common to all trades - but unknown to cadets - and I'd welcome anyone Reg F or PRes contributing their insight on the experience. 

Besides it has nothing to do with training cadets or the cadet program.


----------



## Jarnhamar

CIC members should wear the same kit as the cadets they instruct/supervise.

CIC officers shouldn't be wearing Load bearing vests anymore than they should be carrying rubber rifles while on a nav ex.


----------



## myself.only

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> CIC officers shouldn't be wearing Load bearing vests anymore than they should be carrying rubber rifles while on a nav ex.



Really?  Rifle = load bearing vest
Utterly ridiculous comparison. 
I guess I should carry things around in a grocery bag.  



			
				ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> CIC members should wear the same kit as the cadets they instruct/supervise.


Actually, all of my cadets are issued utility belt, canteen and pouch. They're encouraged to purchase additional LBE to facilitate carrying things of use and most of the NCOs do.


----------



## jpjohnsn

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> CIC members should wear the same kit as the cadets they instruct/supervise.
> 
> CIC officers shouldn't be wearing Load bearing vests anymore than they should be carrying rubber rifles while on a nav ex.


Sorry, but I have to pedant for a moment...

About the only thing common between the kit I was issued and what cadets are issued is the wedge, the boots, the SS shirt, the tie and the socks.  Everything else is *similar* but not the same.   If the cadets and the staff were expected to dress alike, I fear that our VSSes might be in for some scrutiny. 

The army cadets are coming on-line with a field training uniform (also issued to air and sea cadets - as required - at summer training centres) but this is basically the OG-107 with a few modifications.  Air cadets are authorised to wear surplus OG-107s in the field if they wear it correctly.

Now, I completely agree that the cadets and their staff should be in equivalent orders of dress and I COMPLETELY agree that tac vests are not something cadets or CIC should be wearing.   If a staff member of mine showed up with a tac vest on an FTX, I'd tell them to put it back in their car and leave it home next time.


----------



## Jarnhamar

myself.only said:
			
		

> Really?  Rifle = load bearing vest
> Utterly ridiculous comparison.
> I guess I should carry things around in a grocery bag.


Or you could try a backpack?

Comparing a rifle to military issued full _fighting_ order isn't that ridiculous when you consider the primary thing the webbing/LBV is designed to carry.




			
				jpjohnsn said:
			
		

> and I COMPLETELY agree that tac vests are not something cadets or CIC should be wearing.   If a staff member of mine showed up with a tac vest on an FTX, I'd tell them to put it back in their car and leave it home next time.


Agreed.  I'm not sure if it's semantics or not but I think that "no tacvest"  would/should extend to "webbing" and load bearing vests since it's the same function.


----------



## jpjohnsn

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Agreed.  I'm not sure if it's semantics or not but I think that "no tacvest"  would/should extend to "webbing" and load bearing vests since it's the same function.


Only to a point.  We have available to us, in cadet stores in Borden, 82 pattern webbing and rucksacks.  When we're out for the full weekend, we'll draw them for the cadets to use so they'll have a handy water supply, someplace to keep their rain gear (if the weather looks like it'll be needed) and to have a decent pack to hike back to the biv site.  It's practical and any excuse to expose the cadets to actually military kit - obsolete or not - IMHO goes towards the 'stimulating interest in the activities of the CF'.   In those instances, I see no issue in CIC wearing webbing for that version of its intended purpose.


----------



## 392

myself.only said:
			
		

> Well the usual reason, load bearing.  When not carrying a ruck, it seems the most effective way to keep my hands free while carrying canteen(s), small first aid kit, rain gear, and all the other stuff that's nice to keep handy while secretly wondering how much longer we'll go before the candidate realizes he's on the wrong bearing.



Is there any reason why the same thing could not be accomplished through the same means most Cbt Arms NCOs and WOs use when they are assessing candidates' abilities to move dismounted across a piece of terrain - a small pack or personally purchased Blackhawk backpack? Sorry, but I cannot for one second think of one single reason that a CIC officer or any cadet (and please do not use the term NCO without cadet in front of it when speaking of your cadets - the soldiers, sailors and airmen/women of the CAF have *earned* that designation) would require a piece of load carriage equipment designed solely for a soldier in combat to have quick and easy access to those items needed to inflict harm on the enemy, aside from some type of PD training the CIC officer may be participating in with a RegF or PRes field unit. 

I have no doubt CIC officers and staff cadets require the ability to have water and other goodies on-hand when in "the field" with their cadets, however entitlements are there so that the finite resources the CF have are properly managed and the right people get the right tools to do the jobs required of them. Want a tacvest issued? Component Transfer to a MOC that requires it and the rest of the skillsets and headaches that go with it. Don't want all that? There are all kinds of aftermarket places to buy good quality load carriage equipment that you don't need an entitlement to purchase. 

You can keep "comfortable", have all the goodies you need and set the example to the younger folks without making more out of your role than what it is  :2c:


----------



## myself.only

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Or you could try a backpack?
> 
> Comparing a rifle to military issued full _fighting_ order isn't that ridiculous when you consider the primary thing the webbing/LBV is designed to carry.



IIRC FFO is designed to carry the essentials required to sustain you in the field for 24-hours.
Not quite verbatim but that is the intent.
So, sorry I still don't see the devil incarnate lurking in my FFO. 

True I could buy a civvie backpack. But honestly why would I?  
Setting aside comfort, that I already have a ruck for carrying more than the essentials, and the comparative utility of FFO's organized pouches over a backpack, I see nothing morally superior in wearing a blatantly civilian backpack with my CADPATs. 

Having said that - and to get back on point - the point I was making is that although I can see the utility when trekking of a tacvest or other LBE (and on this point, OZ, you and I agree that are the same item), however, this in no way endorses CIC officers hassling sup techs for such kit or lying to obtain it.


----------



## jpjohnsn

Capt. Happy said:
			
		

> Is there any reason why the same thing could not be accomplished through the same means most Cbt Arms NCOs and WOs use when they are assessing candidates' abilities to move dismounted across a piece of terrain - a small pack or personally purchased Blackhawk backpack? Sorry, but I cannot for one second think of one single reason that a CIC officer or any cadet (and please do not use the term NCO without cadet in front of it when speaking of your cadets - the soldiers, sailors and airmen/women of the CAF have *earned* that designation) would require a piece of load carriage equipment designed solely for a soldier in combat to have quick and easy access to those items needed to inflict harm on the enemy, aside from some type of PD training the CIC officer may be participating in with a RegF or PRes field unit.
> 
> I have no doubt CIC officers and staff cadets require the ability to have water and other goodies on-hand when in "the field" with their cadets, however entitlements are there so that the finite resources the CF have are properly managed and the right people get the right tools to do the jobs required of them. Want a tacvest issued? Component Transfer to a MOC that requires it and the rest of the skillsets and headaches that go with it. Don't want all that? There are all kinds of aftermarket places to buy good quality load carriage equipment that you don't need an entitlement to purchase.
> 
> You can keep "comfortable", have all the goodies you need and set the example to the younger folks without making more out of your role than what it is  :2c:


Got that out of your system now?  Good.  The tac vest issue has been addressed earlier.  If someone in the CIC was issued one, they shouldn't have.  The vast majority of us in that branch would agree on that point.  On the other hand, other than looking foolish, if they managed to acquire one (or 82 pattern kit or whatever) through a surplus store, what's it to you?  Unless it was stolen and fenced through the store, no one in the system is being deprived.

Most kit cadets are issued for FTXs are drawn from a separate cadet stores and is mostly obsolete or suplused kit that was transferred to the CCO for issue to the cadets.  Again, no one in the CF is going without because of cadets being issued a ruck or a web belt for the weekend.

Oh, and by the way, NCO is a definition, not an honorific.  The cadet system has used NCO (without the cadet modifier) officially since the program begin.  If that's not to your liking, that's on you, not them.


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## myself.only

Capt. Happy said:
			
		

> Want a tacvest issued? Component Transfer to a MOC that requires it and the rest of the skillsets and headaches that go with it. Don't want all that? There are all kinds of aftermarket places to buy good quality load carriage equipment that you don't need an entitlement to purchase.



Whoa. As you can see from my posts I was discussing whether an item could be put to use.  I was not arguing with entitlement.
As for the CAF small pack, I don't believe I'm entitled to one of those either.


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## Eye In The Sky

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Or you could try a backpack?



Especially if you shelled out your own $$ for webbing.  I'd go to Ebay or MEC and get something I can use 'civie side' that doesn't scream "Army/Navy Surplus" but still has a field'ish look to it.  I paid about $60 for the daypack I use from MEC (40L) that is years old and still goin' strong.


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## 392

myself.only said:
			
		

> As for the CAF small pack, I don't believe I'm entitled to one of those either.



Most likely not, however as EITS pointed out, a good quality backpack can go a long way. Most of them are of higher quality and more comfortable than what the CF issues anyways.


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## my72jeep

In 20+ years with Cadets I have worn out 3 day packs (35l) 1 of them MEC. in that time I have never seen a set of 82 webbing become completely NS. but the point is the 82 pattern webbing is now in the hands of the Cadet program live with it. 
Funny thing I've had Reg and Res Senor NCO's begging me to acquire them a 64 pattern ruck from cadet stores, but wine when they see CIC with newer kit. We in the CIC seem to be the Bastard Step brother no one wants, we cant have the new shiny things, not that we need most of them, and now people get upset seeing us with the old obsolete kit.


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## Jarnhamar

my72jeep said:
			
		

> In 20+ years with Cadets I have worn out 3 day packs (35l) 1 of them MEC. in that time I have never seen a set of 82 webbing become completely NS. but the point is the 82 pattern webbing is now in the hands of the Cadet program live with it.
> Funny thing I've had Reg and Res Senor NCO's begging me to acquire them a 64 pattern ruck from cadet stores, but wine when they see CIC with newer kit. We in the CIC seem to be the Bastard Step brother no one wants, we cant have the new shiny things, not that we need most of them, and now people get upset seeing us with the old obsolete kit.



Not that it matters but I'm personally of the belief that CF issue Cadpat uniforms should go to serving soldiers and CIC members should wear the same uniform as the cadets they supervise.

I mentioned the load bearing vest because

1. I felt that the "where am I going to store my things?" argument was a pretty poor justification; and
2. it bordered on members of the cadets trying to look like soldiers for the LFC. Which while it doesn't really effect me I thought it would go against the whole child-soldiers image that cadets try to avoid.

I'm told that cadets are issued this stuff on their ex. i don't agree with it like I don't agree with CIC wearing cadpat but that's not my decision to make. It's a moot point.


If memory serves me CIC officers had cadpat before members of my reserve unit had it.
I'm pretty sure that some (regular caveat, not all) CIC officers will have the improved combat uniform before I or my section will.


You should buy a fanny pack for the Senior NCOs that whine.


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## OldSolduer

My  :2c:

If your cadets are on parade in their version of DEU, then the CIC officers should be in DEU.

I see the CIC taking the easy way out some of the time.


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## my72jeep

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> My  :2c:
> 
> *If your cadets are on parade in their version of DEU, then the CIC officers should be in DEU*.
> 
> I see the CIC taking the easy way out some of the time.


Bingo


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## Northalbertan

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Not that it matters but I'm personally of the belief that CF issue Cadpat uniforms should go to serving soldiers and CIC members should wear the same uniform as the cadets they supervise.
> 
> I mentioned the load bearing vest because
> 
> 1. I felt that the "where am I going to store my things?" argument was a pretty poor justification; and
> 2. it bordered on members of the cadets trying to look like soldiers for the LFC. Which while it doesn't really effect me I thought it would go against the whole child-soldiers image that cadets try to avoid.
> 
> I'm told that cadets are issued this stuff on their ex. i don't agree with it like I don't agree with CIC wearing cadpat but that's not my decision to make. It's a moot point.
> 
> 
> If memory serves me CIC officers had cadpat before members of my reserve unit had it.
> I'm pretty sure that some (regular caveat, not all) CIC officers will have the improved combat uniform before I or my section will.
> 
> 
> You should buy a fanny pack for the Senior NCOs that whine.




Yes they are getting some of the ICUs.  They wear what they are issued, same as everyone else.  They are a member of the SAME military you are, different trade, different component, but same military.  You serve in your way, we serve in ours.  If the CAF did not want CIC as part of the military they wouldn't be.  Just my opinion, not that it matters.


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## armyvern

myself.only said:
			
		

> ...
> Well, I cannot agree with you more of this point.  And I hate to see those bad apples then described as how "most CIC officers" are.
> Well, hopefully that stigma can goad those of us who know better into sorting out the bad apples and those noobs who might emulate them.



Would you get over it already??

My comment was about "most CIC Officers" who came in to clothing stores during our rollout of cadpat.  Most of them "who came in".  I fully realize that 99% of CIC did not come in. Context:  realize that it exists. I was born on Oct 3rd, not f'n yesterday.  

I'm sorry that I apparently hurt your 'lil feelings so much that you are_ still_ having issues about it.   :


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## armyvern

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> If memory serves me CIC officers had cadpat before members of my reserve unit had it.
> I'm pretty sure that some (regular caveat, not all) CIC officers will have the improved combat uniform before I or my section will.
> ...



They get issued whatever their supporting clothing outlet has in stock ... just like all other CF members.

Kind of like how Technoviking can't get the new cadpat issued yet because Gagetown has no stock left/in, while it's all some locations have in stock now.


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## Lightguns

my72jeep said:
			
		

> In 20+ years with Cadets I have worn out 3 day packs (35l) 1 of them MEC. in that time I have never seen a set of 82 webbing become completely NS. but the point is the 82 pattern webbing is now in the hands of the Cadet program live with it.
> Funny thing I've had Reg and Res Senor NCO's begging me to acquire them a 64 pattern ruck from cadet stores, but wine when they see CIC with newer kit. We in the CIC seem to be the ******* Step brother no one wants, we cant have the new shiny things, not that we need most of them, and now people get upset seeing us with the old obsolete kit.
> 
> Edited due the post button being prematurely hit.....



You forgot to mention the whole "same commission as the regular officers" issue that bugs alot of folks And the "stealing the army trucks during army summer training" issue ;D


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## Journeyman

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I'm sorry that I apparently hurt your 'lil feelings so much that you are_ still_ having issues about it.   :


  If only you could work through your shyness somehow.   op:


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## my72jeep

Lightguns said:
			
		

> You forgot to mention the whole "same commission as the regular officers" issue that bugs alot of folks And the "stealing the army trucks during army summer training" issue ;D


The whole Queens Commission is a moot point once issued its hard to revoke. But what army trucks, All I've seen at camp lately(Blackdown) last 5 years are rentals. Oh yeah they gave us 4 milcots  4 years back. only because they were sick of the field damage on the rentals.


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## armyvern

Journeyman said:
			
		

> If only you could work through your shyness somehow.   op:



Impossible as I'm impossibly shy.


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## armyvern

my72jeep said:
			
		

> The whole Queens Commission is a moot point once issued its hard to revoke. But what army trucks, All I've seen at camp lately(Blackdown) last 5 years are rentals. Oh yeah they gave us 4 milcots  4 years back. only because they were sick of the field damage on the rentals.



Well, if you went near Blackdown right now ... you'd find a whole bunch of our regiment's vehicles there as part of our EX that you could attempt to steal.  Beware of bitchy red-headed MWOs you may find slinking about though ...


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## my72jeep

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Well, if you went near Blackdown right now ... you'd find a whole bunch of our regiment's vehicles there as part of our EX that you could attempt to steal.  Beware of bitchy red-headed MWOs you may find slinking about though ...


Aw Vern you have a soft spot for Cadets not allways the CIC but the cadets. And I have never stolen a army truck an Iltis maybe.
Ps your not Bitchy just tired.


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## Rutiger

Hey Guys.  

So I know this thread is pretty old, but I didn't think it to be appropriate to start a new thread for the same topic.

I'm a relatively new OCdt, and I am currently going through the stage of getting uniforms issued.  There was clothing Docs in the attestment package, and they did have information on them to let Clothing Stores know of my entitlelment as CIC Army.  When I look at the docs, the information may as well be in greek as I don't know what the information (obviously intended for clothing Stores Pers) means.  There was no Itemized list for my kit, so, I have no idea what I should have, what I shouldn't have, and what I still need to come in for.  As clothing stores is away from a major base, it is taking some time to get it all together, and the folks in stores are great to deal with, I just feel in the dark.

Is there somewhere I can find an itemized list of kit I should have?  With the move from Cadetnet to the Sharepoint system we have now, I can't find anything.

Thanks.


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## my72jeep

Your HQ should have a supply person, call and speak to them.


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## Rutiger

Thanks.  

I assume you mean my RCSU.


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## my72jeep

Yes.


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## brant12

If it makes anyone feel better I am CIC and it took me 9 months to get my CADPAT and a few months more to get my initial issue of DEU stuff......lol. :yellow:


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## Alberta Bound

On a happy note. Today the nicest supply tech consented to exchanging my OD green rain gear for cadpat rain gear.  No more comments from RegF and PRes about my unprofessional appearance on rainy days. Third try in 12 months was a charm. She even offered up new T shirts since I haven't asked for any since 2006. I felt like a kid at Christmas. I was so stunned at the ease of it I forgot to try and see if they had any cadpat rank slip ons in stock yet. Oh well I will continue with pips on the combat shirt and bars on my jacket.


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## Rutiger

Alberta Bound said:
			
		

> On a happy note. Today the nicest supply tech consented to exchanging my OD green rain gear for cadpat rain gear.  No more comments from RegF and PRes about my unprofessional appearance on rainy days. Third try in 12 months was a charm. She even offered up new T shirts since I haven't asked for any since 2006. I felt like a kid at Christmas. I was so stunned at the ease of it I forgot to try and see if they had any cadpat rank slip ons in stock yet. Oh well I will continue with pips on the combat shirt and bars on my jacket.



I had to get mine from my ACO.


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## Wrangler

Would someone have a copy of the present scale of issue for a CIC officer?

Thanks in advance
Wrangler


----------



## mariomike

Wrangler said:
			
		

> Would someone have a copy of the present scale of issue for a CIC officer?



For reference, perhaps,

Scale of Issue

will be merged with,

CIC Scale of Issue  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/23398.0

See also,

CIC entitlements 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/112501.25
4 pages.


----------



## CRJ

Additional reference.  Through CCO net you can find the scale of issue here:

  Repository> Central> RCIS (C)> CF Scales of Issue


----------



## Wrangler

Thank you for both links, but one is over 10 years old and the second does not answer the question (have read both previously). Unfortunately at this point I do not have access to CCO net so I'm unable to look the info up directly myself.

If someone could copy and paste, I'd appreciate it. If not, I'll find out the hard way and wait.


----------



## sapperboysen

Wrangler said:
			
		

> Thank you for both links, but one is over 10 years old and the second does not answer the question (have read both previously). Unfortunately at this point I do not have access to CCO net so I'm unable to look the info up directly myself.
> 
> If someone could copy and paste, I'd appreciate it. If not, I'll find out the hard way and wait.



Anyone can sign up to have access to the file repository.(https://portal-portail.cadets.gc.ca/_layouts/home-accueil.aspx?ReturnUrl=%2fen%2f_layouts%2fAuthenticate.aspx%3fSource%3d%252Fen&Source=%2fen&lang=en)


----------



## mariomike

Wrangler said:
			
		

> Thank you for both links, but one is over 10 years old and the second does not answer the question (have read both previously).



I only suggested a merge. I use this Sticky from Directing Staff as a guideline,

Necroposting - Not always a bad idea 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/87278.0


----------



## Wrangler

Great, thank you to all for the info.

Wrangler


----------



## mariomike

Wrangler said:
			
		

> Great, thank you to all for the info.



You are welcome. Good luck.


----------



## John John

Speaking of CIC scales of issue, anyone know why D08-113AD (for CIC flying personnel) isn't available anywhere in the file repository?


----------

