# DND/VA HELP PLEASE!



## Centurian1985

Another pet peeve of mine.  When I retired, the lady at VA asked if I had any ideas about improving their system.  Poor woman! Half an hour later she weakly smiled as she said she would pass on my ideas to a higher level.  

So heres my problem; there is nowhere on the internet a soldier can learn about successful cases at the VA that they can use to help with their own cases.  I had to go all the way to Charlottetown to win my case for a blown out knee, but won it based on my own research and analysis and application of labour relations law.  Neither of the lawyers who represented me referd to any other cases in their transcripts.  What I complained about to the VA staff was that there was nowhere for soldiers to go to get advice about their cases except to VA lawyers, whom I now have a pretty poor opinion of as neither of the two I worked with knew how to write a credible legal presentation.

So heres what I need to know: Are all VA lawyers like that? who is out there as a non-profit group offering to represent our guys in writing their cases when the lawyers we get given prove to be less than expected?  Sure, I can tell people how I won my case (and have), but who do we go to if we have a case that needs a different approach? We should have access to other peoples VA cases in the same way that lawyers have access to other cases.

Am I out in left field on this one?


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## 17thRecceSgt

Centurion,

I know what you are talking about here...to some degree.  My "short story" is I screwed my back on basic para in 92.  I lived with the "injury" until 2003 until things started going alittle south.  After asking for an X ray repeatedly at Stad hospital, I got one.  I was sent for an MRI within a week (pucker factor?).  So...they determined...11+ years later that I had herniated discs in my L4-L5 and L5-S1 lumbar spine..degenerative disc's and spinal stenosis.  END STATE?  I have a 5% claim as they see it.  Goodei gum drops. thanks for that.

I am now faced with, after all that, a limited ability to do anything with VAC until they make their "decision".  When they do, I have to go against, if I chose to, the VAC lawyers about how "hurt" I am.  Nowhere is there anyone advocating for me...except me.  And the paperwork from my Pers File that my former C Clk copied for me a few years ago....thank him for that.  Despite CF98s from CABC, X rays and MRI that all point to "jumpin from Herc's" as to where my "disability" comes from, I am daunted with the fact of facing VAC/DVA with no help from the CF, and no one "on my side" in VAC either.  I have no info on "like cases" to measure my own file against.  

Who is there...in the entire VAC org to fight for the ex-service member, or current serving member?  My opinion is "no one".  

It's sad.  You do what you think the Service needs/required you to.  Then...you find out after...that you are up that creek ( the stinky one ) without a paddle, and no one is there to offer one.  

Who should be heading up VAC/DVA?  Someone who has served and seen...that my opinion.  Not someone who thinks "serving" is someting the waitor does for them on Friday at their fav pub.

I feel like I am a convicted car thief, trying to get car insurance.  Like I did something wrong...

I have paperwork too.  Real Vet's are going thru crap 1000% worse than I am.  Funny...all the civie staffers in VAC make as much or more than I have...but never had to put their meat on the line.  Ironic.  In a very maddening way.

Time to go punch out my "weeble wooble" again...


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## 17thRecceSgt

Oh one point I forgot in my "rage"...

You said something about the VA lawyers that represented  you?  Isn't it sort of ( by sort of I mean VERY MUCH SO ) a conflict for a VA lawyer for you, and other Vet's/claimants, to have a VA lawyer working on their best interest for a claim AGAINST VAC????

I would liken it to having my SSM laying a charge against me....and then having my Assisting Offcr being the one that who "recommended" the charges to the SSM and provided a statement to that effect to the CoC.

Should be a seperate and independant lawyer that, as much as you can have, has YOUR/the claimants best interests in mind.

Seems to be a carry-over of the Liberal government way of doing business.

I only fell out of a plane with a good canopy.  People are out there with real injuries.  Some of them for a LONG time.  Wartime service.

VAC is, in my mind, turning their back on our real Vet's.  And this VA lawyers advocating for claimants is "Not On".

sigh...back to the "weeble wooble" now for some Anger Management.

 :rage:


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## Kat Stevens

Short answer: Nobody at VAC is on your side. You are under no obligation to use VAC lawyers to fight your case.  Your first move is to contact your local Royal Canadian Legion branch, and get the contact info for your area Veterans Advocate, it is their job to battle VAC on your behalf, and most of them are very zealous. I believe that ANAVETS offers the same service, but I was wrong once before.  You do have the right to retain civilian council to represent you, but make sure he's up to speed on VAC disability claim procedure.  I went through the Legion when it was decided I was of no further use, and it was a (relatively) painless experience.


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## 17thRecceSgt

Kat

Very sincerely, thanks for the indication of where my "center of arc" should be.  As I said...I feel I am up Stinky creek with no paddle.  I will pursue those avenues you pointed to.

But...isn't the REAL issue the other one you said?  That NO ONE at VAC is concerned with "vet's" best interest?  Wasn't that why that Dept was created??????????????????????????

VAC...Veterans Affairs Canada.  Hmm, lets ponder a re-name of that Department.  Maybe that should be a new thread.  I will put a paycheck on the best name that reflects their current function.  Such as....FOOVC.  (**** Over Our Vets).

sigh.  what a slap in the face to Vet's (and I am REALLY not one, I hit the DZ in Canada in peacetime...under a canopy.  Bad jab though   :-\).

My father was a FE (Flight Engineer for non-zoomies) on the ol Argus (VP 415...Swordfish).  After ++ years of flying ASW/SAR during the Cold War with 4 x 18 cylinder piston engines beside him for 24+ hours at a time, he was "legally deaf" type thing.  Understandable.  Right?  The man had 10,000+ hours in the air when he retired in '80...

DVA "graciously" re-assesed his claim, and re-assessed his "benefits"...57 cents a month.

SLAP!


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## muffin

One of the most frusterating things for my Dad, a DVA pensioner, is having to "re-prove" his injury each year through mountains of assessments, paperwork and memories. A close friend of his gave up a long time ago for this same reason and told them to take thier pension  and shove it (so to speak  ) Can't say I blame him really.

He is injured. All of his doctors say he will NEVER work again.... and still each year another envelope of forms arrives for him to re-plead his case. Not only this but he has passed CRA now - and couldn't go back even if he wanted to!

.....and of course he just received the information from SISIP saying they are changing their plan again with more reductions at 60 or 65 .... 

...just not right.

muffin


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## Centurian1985

Would it be helpful if we posted a list of the things any injured membered should do to build their case? Would that be supported by the site-owners?
(Getting a CF 98 is not enough these days)


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## the 48th regulator

We actually have a site dedicated for this.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/board,76.0.html

I can work on something this evening for you regarding the process from time of injury, right on up to the multiple appeals, as I have done all of them.

A few things I find intriguing on the posts, as I too have hit many a road block, so I will help.

More to follow...

dileas

tess


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## Kat Stevens

At the time of VACs creation, it had the mandate to ensure adequate (by 1940s standards) care for injured veterans.  I believe that, over the years of Governmental apathy toward the Forces, VAC became like any other bureaucratic empire, more concerned with hanging on to "their" money than what was fair. To be semi fair to VAC, there have been many, many fraudulent claims for them to sort through, and this is more than likely the cause for their reluctance to pony up the dough.  You need to access your medical docs through Freedom of Information, with all entries relevant to your claim highlighted prominently.  The CF 98 by itself is no longer enough, have all documentation that supports your claim, including specialists assessments, etc.  GET EVERYTHING YOU CAN RELATED TO YOUR INJURY, no matter how trivial it may seem to you.  If you are still serving, report any aggravation to your condition. Suffering in silence, while a wonderful trait for some things, will shag up your future life something fierce.  To sum up (finally, I hear you say!)  paperwork can be your friend, in this case.

Good luck, Kat


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## Centurian1985

Actually the main problem is that the people appointed to make the decision have no military background and do not believe most of the cases presented.  One friend of mine had his knee blown out by a guerilla fighter at a Lebanon checkpoint.  Despite all the paperwork and documentation they still didnt believe that such a thing could happen. 

Also, they think we can just got  to the doctor whenever we want, not realizing that sometimes we work in areas of the world where there are no doctors around (at least not always competent ones) or that we are on an operation and cant go to the doctor until the mission is over.  

They also have no legal training and do not undertsand that we are innocent until proven guilty; in other words, I do not have to prove that I am not a liar, they have to prove I am a liar (which is easy beacuse I'm not lying about the injury; apparently some people do lie about their injuries, but I dont know of any personally and I digress...). 

Also, a lack of physical evidence idoes not mean that something did not occur. it only means that there was no system or person present to record the incident (if a soldier falls in a forest and no one else is around, does that mean he didnt get hurt?). 

You do not have to have EXACT evidence, you must have PREPONDERANCE of evidence! In other words if I say my knee was injured and the doctor says my knee was injured, and my paperwork shows I was not injured when i joined, but does show i am injured now, then ipso facto, there is a high level of probabiltiy that I was injured during military service, and build from there. 

Speculation by board members is also illegal, they cannot say 'oh you must have hurt yourself some other time', they must have some sort of evidence of when that other time was   Board members cannot make allegations of falsehood without some sort of supportng evidence, it is the same as commiting libel or slander.  And if they do, you are enttiled to confront your accusers and refute their claims. 

Finally, there is wide confusion on the level of proof is required.  This is not a criminal case, you do not need to prove 'beyond a reasonable doubt'; this is a civil case, 'you only need to prove 'beyond a reasonable probability'; the difference is that in criminal cases you need to prove 95% certainty, while in civil court you only need to prove over 50% certainty - makes big difference in how much evidence is needed!


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## the 48th regulator

The proof they look for is medical documentation.

This is how they base their judgements, if this does not exist, then the onus is up to the member to have medical proof.

i.e, your friend must find a way to show that his persistant pain and suffering occured due to it being blown out at a check point in Lebanon.  Is this documented medically on his military file?  If not is there any documentations at all that the incident  happened.  If so, this can be the evidence that you can take to your own family doctor.  He/She will make an assessment of the the P & S based on that original injury.  This is the documented proof you present to a tribunal, which you would be able to have anyone and everyone you choose present, VAC legal counsel, Legion Rep, Doctor, family members.

Please note, the appeals board review is NOT made of member of of VAC.  It is an outside body, made of 2-4 members that adjudicate your appeal.

This is where I agree with Kat, get as much information as possible!!  Even then, it may not always work as I recently learned at a appeals board review.

dileas

tess


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## Centurian1985

To clarify, they didnt believe it had happened, but he had enough evidence to finally win his case.  His current dilemna is that he has associated back pain as a result of the primary injury, which he is finding it much harder to prove.  His last case went to Charlotteville last summer.


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## the 48th regulator

He needs to see a doctor, that will assess him and document that his back pain is associated with the injury.

dileas

tess


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## simysmom99

Well, I hope that change is coming.
My dh, Mcpl. Paul Franklin and I are currently in the middle of this with the VA.  You would think that his case would be pretty cut and dry.  The man blew up in Afghanistan, he has no legs, 100% disability.  Right?  Perhaps not.  They need all the medical records, they need to do a home visit to see what we need to change.  Well, we changed houses for 1 and I have already ordered the chair lift, and I have a lovely metal portable ramp out the back door for access.  I figure with these things it is easier to beg forgiveness rather than ask for permission.  The upside to this is that I am not out any money (yet) as everyone is trying to figure out who will pay for what, being as he's still a serving member, so technically he is not a veteran... and other points too numerous to state.  I have been assured time and again that we will borne no cost for what he needs.  He has new legs, new wheelchair, all that jazz.
Another upside.  There are lots of people listening, and I tend to be a loud and outspoken person.  I have been told that what we are going through right now is new to everyone and that through this experience, change can and will happen.
We shall see.
Good luck to all those who are in the system right now.


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## muffin

simysmom99 said:
			
		

> I have been told that what we are going through right now is new to everyone and that through this experience, change can and will happen.



I hope so too.... 

Glad to hear everything is progressing as quickly as it can in it's current state though  

muffin


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## the 48th regulator

> The upside to this is that I am not out any money (yet) as everyone is trying to figure out who will pay for what, being as he's still a serving member, so technically he is not a veteran



simysmom99,

Contact your local legion, and Veteran affairs Representative, regardless whether he is serving or not, he is entitleted to help, services, and payment.

Here are some places to start;

Veterans Affairs Disability Pension Program

Guide to R.C.L service officers

VAC contacts  where you need to locate your local Pension officer and Councilor.

Do this immediately, if no one has approached you yet, it sounds like you have, so I would make sure that the legion is involved.  And read read read, you are entitled to many things, of which the VAC will never let you know that you are deserving of!

dileas

tess


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## manhole

Your best bet is to contact the service officer of your local veterans organization, i.e. ANAVETS or Royal Canadian Legion.   I am service officer for our local ANAVETS unit and have quite a few files I am currently working on.   You have to do a lot of your own work on your case and every case is considered individually by VAC.   There are many good people working at VAC but there are some plugs as well.   The Act and regulations thereto require updating and change.    There are some good points to the new Veterans Charter.   During the last election campaign, the Conservatives promised a Veterans Bill of Rights plus an ombudsman.    I would suggest anyone who is not a member of a veterans organization, join and become involved.   If you are still in the military, make sure you keep a record of any injuries, no matter how minor, for future reference.   And if you are really smart, you will report any injuries so that a paper trail can be created.   This is a sad commentary on how our veterans are supported however this is the reality.


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## beenthere

I had mixed success after retiring in 96--Med. Release. For some reason unknown to me I wasn't aware that I was eligible for SISIP benefits until about a year after my release. I applied and was advised that I should have applied within 180 days of my release so they would not consider my application-period. I supplied them with very good reasoning for my non awareness of the 180 day factor. They would not accept the very pertinent reason that a lawyer friend (who never participated in any way in my contacts with them) stated was a good reason.I called the Pres. of SISIP who acted like a dink and had no time for me. I told him to bugger off and left the SISIP case to die it's own death. I have not contacted them since 99.
I pursued the DVA route which had also turned down my first application. I requested a complete copy of all of my medical records and within a couple of months 15lbs of paper arrived in the mail. Everything was there. I went through all of it and divided it into piles. Piles that didn't matter like contracts for glasses. Piles that may matter and piles that really did matter---my attendance at the MIR--referrals to specialists and their reports, things that had been noted by military Dr's. but not attended to and so on. I then pieced the really pertinent papers together to make a paper history of my problem and how it had been addressed or looked over/overlooked. I then wrote a narrative that was short but factual to guide anyone who reads through the story presented in the paperwork from my file. Just kind of stitched the pieces together.
I then sent off a copy of it all to the DVA lawyer that I had contacted . Shortly thereafter the DVA lawyer contacted me and stated that I had a good case and that they were going to add their lawyers worth to it and submit it. They did and it was submitted. A few months later I was advised that my disability was assessed at X% and I received a cheque for $X to cover three years of the time since I first made application.(3 Years is max.) and advised me that I would receive $X per month tax free as long as I live. I can also make appeal if I feel that I am more disabled than the X% that they had given me.
I must say that the lawyer was very helpful and was entirely with me all the way. I don't know what Legion reps are like but I have heard good things about them. My advice is get copies of your med docs and accident/ injury reports and anything else that may help your case so that you have a paper trail to follow. Stick with it . Pay NO attention to the first denial and fight them like a lawyer. All facts facts facts and be persistent.


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## Centurian1985

Congrats! Sounds like you had a good lawyer, I was not impressed with the ones I had.


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## 3rd Horseman

I have found that the VAC lawyers are rather good and caring folk. First denial is standard my view is that the committee has to get paid so they must deny a little so they get to sit again on the next board. Reason is they only get paid when they sit. I suggested to VAC that they appoint people for the position and pay them a flat rate not reflective of the time they sit. Who knows if that will work but it would be a start.


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## schart28

One advice I can tell you is too feed your VAC lawyer with information even if they have access to it. It will speed up your review.


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## retiredgrunt45

When i was medically released the release clerk put me in touch with the legion, best decison i ever made. I had initially been turned down by the VA and was on appeal when i was released. The legion put me in touch with a lawyer who dealt with personal injury cases and she had done quite a few military cases in the past and had won every one of them. VA lawyers are OK, but they tend to be biased and don't always give their best argument on your behalf. The legion has a list of lawyers who will sometimes do Pro-Bono work if they think your case is strong enough.

*Number 1* is to have everything documented, doesn't matter how big or how small, write everything down, *dates, times, names, ranks , places* etc. Keep this in a journal or log form. Handwritten entries are prefered because its more personal. The more information you have the stronger your case will be and the less holes the VA will be able to poke through it. Deal with facts not speculation. 

*Number 2* If you get hurt make damn sure a CF-98 and an incident reports are completed within *24 hours *  and keep a signed copy of both on your own file. If you were taken to a civilian hospital keep copy(s) of any treatment(s) surgery etc, given and any paperwork pertaining to your stay, admission and release from the hospital. Also doctors and nurses names is a biggy in case you need a witness list.

*Number 3* Document names, ranks of any persons who where present and witnessed the accident, have them write out a signed statement while its still fresh in their mind as to what happened, circumstances and how it happened. A witness list is a big asset when dealing with the VA. If your case goes to court these witnesses will be your biggest asset. 

 The VA is no different than any other government agency, its a huge black hole with tons of beaurocracy and red tape and sometimes it seems to take forever to get anything done. "Take a number and have a seat"


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## teddybear

simysmom99 said:
			
		

> Well, I hope that change is coming.
> My dh, Mcpl. Paul Franklin and I are currently in the middle of this with the VA.  You would think that his case would be pretty cut and dry.  The man blew up in Afghanistan, he has no legs, 100% disability.  Right?  Perhaps not.



My husband was Sgt. Darcy Tedford. He was killed in Afghanistan on Oct 14th, 2006. You would think that this case would definitely be cut and dry!! I am still waiting for the 75% top up of his pay. Apparently they have to "investigate" his military service, pay and rank. As of the week before Xmas, the claim was still in progress in PEI. It took 2 months for the Sudden Death Benefit to be awarded - again they had to investigate!!  :
If it takes this long for something sooo simple to be awarded, I can't imagine how long it takes to be awarded a medical pension. 
Good luck to all of you with claims still pending or on appeal.


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## simysmom99

Well, we just had our review prior to Christmas.  Seems that our VAC lady (using that word a bit loosely) had to make sure that Paul still had no legs.  I am at a loss for words on that point.  We did however get informed and approved to extra compensation due to his level of injury.


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## muffin

To the last 2 posts - I can't imagine how incredibly frusterating this process must be! This is rediculous!

There is someone on another thread looking for ideas for news stories... this would be a good one.


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## retiredgrunt45

My condolences to you and your family Teddybear.

 Have you been in touch with the Legion?

 They can help you in ways you can't imagine.

 Here is the contact info for the *dominion command branch *  in Ottawa. 
 Give them a call, thay can help you with your situation.

 The Royal Canadian Legion
 Dominion Command
 86 Aird Place
 Ottawa, ON
 K2L 0A1 

 Phone: (613) 591-3335
 Fax:     (613) 591-9335

 Good luck.


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## RHFC_piper

teddybear said:
			
		

> My husband was Sgt. Darcy Tedford. He was killed in Afghanistan on Oct 14th, 2006. You would think that this case would definitely be cut and dry!! I am still waiting for the 75% top up of his pay. Apparently they have to "investigate" his military service, pay and rank. As of the week before Xmas, the claim was still in progress in PEI. It took 2 months for the Sudden Death Benefit to be awarded - again they had to investigate!!  :
> If it takes this long for something sooo simple to be awarded, I can't imagine how long it takes to be awarded a medical pension.
> Good luck to all of you with claims still pending or on appeal.




You're right, it should be easier for those in your case... That seems almost unacceptable.  I hope it works out for you.

I have recently recieved information on my own claim (from the friendly fire incident in September 06);

The verdict is; I am not currently eligible for a 'favourable' claim.
I was told by a VAC / DVA rep to put in a claim asap, once I returned home from Afghanistan, so that it would be processed immediately.  Others who have been through this process advised to wait for various reasons; No long term diagnosis of disability, no diagnosis of PTSD, no loss of income, no need for support for medical needs.

The VAC / DVA rep advised having each wound assessed individually, as each of them caused a large amount of damage. I won't go into detail, I'll just say it's going to be a long road to get back to normal mobility, and there are no forcasts for long term issues (besides having trouble at airport metal detectors). 
So I filled out a mountian of paper work for each one, and submitted it. About a month later, I recieved a call from a DVA claims rep, who informed me that my claim was currently 'unfavourable' for the following reasons;
- Disabilities due to fresh wounds don't merit a claim as they are still healing and the full effects are not yet evident.
- No permanent disabilities have been diagnosed (and probably wont be until healing and progress in physio reaches a plateau)
- PTSD has not been diagnosed officially (Still waiting for a session with the head shrinkers)
- There is no loss of income, as I'm still on contract with the regular forces untill they deem that my healing and physio has come to a plateau, conduct a physical and PT review and either medically release me, or deem me fit for duty and return me to my reserve unit.
- There is no need to provide for medical care, as the military covers it.

Because of these reasons, my claim as it stands now, would be 'unfavourable' and I would be appealing it forever.   And if the claim ever went through, it would be extremely low.

There are upsides, though.
- Weather I am released or not, DVA / VAC will cover any losses due to lack of employment, and will cover re-education if I can't return to the field of (civilian) employment I was in before deployment.
- Now that my application is in, it is just a matter of submitting it for process once conditions are met.

I must say, I was a little disappointed when I was told all this, but I understand it, and I sort of makes sense.

But, IMO, the families of the fallen should not have to wait.  They should be priority, followed by soldiers who's disabilities are very apparent (loss of limb).

The next issue I have is the 'lump sum' Payment instead of pentions.  My issue is simple; I have unknown metalic pieces in my body (which may or may not be; casing from the ammo fire at us, debris from the ground or surrounding area, or depleted uranium, which was possibly fired at us)  which could cause unknown long term effects... not to mention the other wounds to both legs and arm (which already effect mobility)... What happens then?  They say they will re-assess the claim and adjust as needed, but that just doesn't seem reasonable. Maybe it's just me, but it doesn't make sense.

I hope the system becomes more streamlined and efficient as time goes on, as there will be more and more soldiers in these situations as things progress in Afghanistan.


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## Rescue Randy

The reason that they are providing lump sums instead of a pension is that we lost the pension when they brought in the New Veterans Charter.  The CF did what they could to get better benefits for the troops, but were steamrolled by the Liberals supporting VAC as they wanted to make it look like they were doing something for the troops.
One thing that needs to be repeated loud and clear is that you do not have to be a Legion member to call the Service Officers of Dominion Command, Royal Canadian Legion - and the bulk of the guys working there are retired military.  They will help you.  The phone number and contact were provided by Retired Grunt 45  two posts before this one.


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## Centurian1985

RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> The verdict is; I am not currently eligible for a 'favourable' claim...



Make sure you take note of previous advice - get copies of all assessments every doctor makes, so you have supporting statements for when you submit your claim again.  A lot of paperwork gets sent between centers and doctors that you wont see unless you ask for it.    

Just make sure you dont get released without getting into a education and/or retraining program first!


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## manhole

Don't forget the Army, Navy & Air Force Veterans in Canada (ANAVETS).  I am the Service Officer with our local unit and have 39 files on the go at the moment........I have been doing this for a number of years and some bureaucrats still amaze me with their lack of knowledge.   Don't give up.......keep at it.   It is very unfortunate that these claims can't be processed in a timely fashion and with a large dose of common sense by the VAC staff!   Use whatever resources you have at hand to pursue your claim.


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## Corvin

:rage:
I just got a cheque from VAC today, there was no letter, just a stub claiming it was my "Disability Award", $12786.46.  I called VAC and was told that's my 5% "award".

I injured my back during training 3+ years ago and am now being medically released.  I cannot stand nor sit for long periods (read more then 20 minutes standing and more then 60 minutes sitting).  Just this morning when I went to change my 3 week old daughter I experienced severe pain when I went to lift her up (she's somewhere around 10-12 lbs).

How does that only qualify me for 5%?  I intend to fight this thing as hard as I can, but I just needed to rant.

Also, $255,729.25 as a max?  I'm only 28,  if I was able to work until I was 60 that's only 5% of my current salary with the CF, why have we allowed the charter to become such a mess?  And is there anything that we can do to fix it (the charter I mean, my back just needs to be replaced).


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## riggermade

I feel for you and fight it, get a lawyer.

I was turned down for osteoarthritis in both feet, both knees, right hip, both shoulders and degenerative disk disease in my back.

Their excuse was it was due to aging, I'm 44.

Couldn't have any thing to do with 21 years wearing a maroon beret and jumping.


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## 3rd Herd

Corvin,
thanks for the post. Just had one of my appeal boards in regard to this issue/injury. Let you know what the results of are in the standard four to six weeks.

riggermade,
they split the osteoarthritis issuses into a seperate claim. To be handled at a later time.


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## Corvin

I still haven't received a letter explaining the appeals process.  So I've got a couple of quick questions for anyone who's gone through this before.

First, what do I do with this cheque?  Can I spend it and they'll just take that out of any further settlement I'd get (it can't get any lower then the 5% they've given me).

Second, how do I appeal?  Do I need any additional documentation?  Can I have a non DND doc take a look at me and give them their assessment?

Thanks guys, I'm just pissed off, impatient and waiting for a letter.


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## 3rd Herd

Corvin,
if you go to the site home page and use advanced search, "VAC, Disability" etc you will be able to find all the threads on this genre. More information and links, plus you will be able to see who on site has some "expertise" in this and then be able to PM them.


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## Greymatters

Have you not had any previous contact with a VAC lawyer?  Someone should have been keeping you updated on the status of your claim and the fact that you would only get 5%.  

Back and head injuries seem to be the toughest to prove.  Be prepared to get appointments with at least 2 or 3 civilian specialists, specifically identifying what limitations this causes you in relation to work and everday life, and be prepared to have the DND review crew challenge their assessments.


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## Long in the tooth

I guess I'm relatively lucky.  Blew my knee out on course reqr emergency surgery, so my documentation is water tight.  I was almost forced out but worked hard to stay in shape.  I'm currently getting a 15% disability by monthly deposit which I toss into my RRSP.  As it stands now presently there's just a one time payment; I prefer it monthly although the total amount would not differ much.

I just had an MRI done of my back due to incredible pain.  The results were a non chalant "your spine shows some degeneration, probably due to age" - and humping a ruck for 19 years wouldn't have anything to do with that, would it?

I wish you well in getting a higher settlement.  I believe that 20% is about the highest you can get without demonstrating some life altering incapacity.  I've advised lots of members and have found that DVA was tight until about 1996 (when the WW2 vets really started having issues) and became more lenient with claims.  Since then, unfortunately, the program has been taken advantage of (I overheard members DAGing discussing on how to work a PTSD scam on return).  So once again a sad few have ruined it for the rest of us.


----------



## Corvin

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Have you not had any previous contact with a VAC lawyer?  Someone should have been keeping you updated on the status of your claim and the fact that you would only get 5%.



No, I haven't heard from anyone at VAC, save for the guy I called and was told that the cheque I have in my hands is for the 5% diss award and that a letter "has been sent".

I got the cheque on Monday, and still haven't seen a letter (it's Friday night as I write this).

My main question is since I've just moved (a relocation on release) I could really use a vehicle, if I cash the cheque am I going to be able to appeal still or do I send it back with an appeal?  If anyone could answer that or explain the appeals process I'd be grateful.

And as for searching, that was the first thing I did when I got the cheque with the "disability award" notice on it, it didn't come up with anything useful.


----------



## the 48th regulator

What about SISIP, has your military case manager  informed you of the details responsible with regards to them looking after your needs?  They are to provide you with a monthly payment, as well, as retraining in the form of paying for education.  Further, if you are found to have a permanent disability, they can provide with a  permanent monthly payment, reviewed on a regular basis.

Let me know if you have been offered the above sources, if not, we can offer advise on how to put you in touch with right people.

dileas

tess


----------



## Greymatters

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> What about SISIP, has your military case manager  informed you of the details responsible with regards to them looking after your needs?  They are to provide you with a monthly payment, as well, as retraining in the form of paying for education.  Further, if you are found to have a permanent disability, they can provide with a  permanent monthly payment, reviewed on a regular basis.



I gonna be pretty pissed if this is another soldier whose unit did not inform him of what benefits he/she is entitled to before dumping him on civie street...


----------



## Long in the tooth

Just for interest sake, your unit might be....?


----------



## the 48th regulator

The Centre

Site map for the Centre's services


   
ABOUT THE CENTRE



THE CENTRE is a new and unique initiative in inter-departmental cooperation, designed to bring the joint efforts of both the Department of National Defence (DND) and Veterans Affairs Canada (VAC) together in providing information and services to injured and retired military members and their families.

Situated within National Defence Headquarters in Ottawa, THE CENTRE has staff employees from both Departments in serving the needs of a broad client base. THE CENTRE Director is a member of the Canadian Forces who reports directly to Chief of Staff/Assistant Deputy Minister (Human Resources - Military) and has a reporting relationship to the Project Manager of the VAC - CF Project in Charlottetown, P.E.I. The VAC staff at THE CENTRE report on a daily basis to the Director and has a technical relationship to the Project Manager in Charlottetown.

MISSION
The DND-VAC Centre for the Support of Injured Members and their Families will support and serve, with dignity and respect, injured and retired members of the Canadian Forces and their families.


_To speak with a representative call:
1 (800) 883-6094 / All calls are Confidential
Mon - Fri 08h00 to 16h00 EST 

Voice mail will be active at all other times
We will return your message the next business day._

Use this information, and hold them accountable for the Mission statement they made.

Handing you a cheque and a letter saying thanks for coming out, just does not cut it.

Use this information, and immediatly start your plan of attack receiving the help you deserve.

dileas

tess


----------



## Corvin

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> What about SISIP, has your military case manager  informed you of the details responsible with regards to them looking after your needs?



I have been in touch with SISIP, not recently though, I've got to get a new contact since I've left the Barrie area.  My military Case MisManager was more then useless, she gave me loads of wrong information and I had to tell her what my status was (she didn't even have my release message, I gave her a copy of it).



			
				Otto Fest said:
			
		

> Just for interest sake, your unit might be....?



It was supposed to be CFSCE Kingston, but I was one of the many PATs holding on PRETC and wasting away there.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Corvin said:
			
		

> I have been in touch with SISIP, not recently though, I've got to get a new contact since I've left the Barrie area.  My military Case MisManager was more then useless, she gave me loads of wrong information and I had to tell her what my status was (she didn't even have my release message, I gave her a copy of it).
> 
> It was supposed to be CFSCE Kingston, but I was one of the many PATs holding on PRETC and wasting away there.



This is totally disgusting, and unacceptable.

You should relay this to the Ombudsman's office soonest, but right now your priority is to sort out your situation.  Tomorrow morning you will do the following, starting at 8am (Yer a civvy now, revel in it!), in this order.

1. Contact the Centre at 1 (800) 883-6094.  Explain your situation that you need a case manager as you have moved (Never mind the last one, and the faults she/had let's concentrate on acquiring some help)

2. Contact SISIP at 1-800-267-6681, have your service number at the ready, and ask to speak with someone who can give you the status of your case.

3.Your third call of the day will be to the Veteran's Review and appeal board 1(800) 450-8006 .  Explain that you want to appeal the decision by VAC.

As for the cheque deposit it, and start using the money.  There will be no quick fixes, so you will need to use the money now.

I advise you have a pen and pad handy, write down everyone's name that you speak to (Tell them to spell it if you have to) and the times you spoke to them (and date of course).

I will be on these means through out the day, and will check on your status, here, tomorrow evening.

dileas

tess


----------



## TCBF

Good work Tess, well done.


----------



## teddybear

My situation is completely different. However, I found that if VAC needed any information, I faxed the info directly to the head office in PEI. By doing this, my case was settled much quicker (3-6 months) as opposed to those widows that dealt with their case worker at the local office. I wish you luck. Our cases were cut and dry - no investigations needed (husbands KIA) and for some of us, it took over 6 months to get the claim settled.  :  I cannot imagine how frustrating this must be for you. Don't be afraid to demand help. They are there, after all, to serve you.


----------



## Elisha

I sent you a private message.  

There is a new ombudsman in place if you do not get the information you need.  Definatly get in contact with the Appeal Board, as per previous posts, the number is there.  The Appeal Board can take some time, we are still going through some things about 2 years after our first claim and more than a year after our appeal was submitted.   


It whole process does take a while, and it can be very frustrating but be persistant and things will happen.  Just keep calm and things will work out for the best.

Elisha


----------



## the 48th regulator

TCBF said:
			
		

> Good work Tess, well done.



Cheers Brother.

We need to stick together and help ech other out, it still blows my mind away that this is lack of support still going on...

dileas

tess


----------



## RCR___

Hi RHFC_piper I was over seas with you I know who you are we were together when we got shot up that morning by that A-10 anyhow my question to you is how long ago did this happen because its been a year for my claim and im still waiting they made me see there doctor vac and they told me they have till the 26 nov to pay me out anyhow I have multiple shrapnel wounds also and I hope they dont come back saying the same thing they did to you cause we did put in for veterans affair pretty close to each other anyhow take care


----------



## RHFC_piper

RCR___ said:
			
		

> Hi RHFC_piper I was over seas with you I know who you are we were together when we got shot up that morning by that A-10 anyhow my question to you is how long ago did this happen because its been a year for my claim and im still waiting they made me see there doctor vac and they told me they have till the 26 nov to pay me out anyhow I have multiple shrapnel wounds also and I hope they dont come back saying the same thing they did to you cause we did put in for veterans affair pretty close to each other anyhow take care



I was told that, for my physical wounds (Legs, back/kidneys, arm, etc.), I would not receive a "favorable return" until one of two conditions are met;
1) I am released from the forces due to these injuries, in which case they would pay out due to loss of employment, or;
2) I am released from medical care directly associated with the injuries; basically meaning that the army is no longer seeing me at the Health services centre for my injuries... which wont be for a loooong time.

I can understand this, kind of;  
- I'm not out of work... the military is still employing me, so VAC doesn't have to cover loss of pay.
- I'm still covered by the CF's medical system, so VAC doesn't have to cover medical expenses what so ever.
- I'm not in need of medical devices... 
- No long term disabilities have been diagnosed yet.
Because of all this, if VAC pushed my claim, they would probably not approve it, or approve it for a very low amount which would cause me to have to redress it about a million and a half times.  

I have been granted 5 5ths of the claim (as you should be too, due to the nature of our injuries), but the amount wont be set until I see their doctor, which I can't do until after I'm released from the care of the CF.  

My only real issue is with my other, non-physical injury claim...  which has been granted, but I've received no information about it beyond a letter which stated that a decision would be made 8 weeks after the original application, which was done about a year ago... I have yet to hear anything back from them.

Keep in mind, all this is from my limited dealings with VAC.  I'm more concerned with the fact that I haven't had a VAC case worker since I've gotten home... well, until now.
My VAC case worker is coming to see me today to discuss these issues.

I really hope your VAC experience goes better than mine (and some of our other platoon mates)...

I'll let you know what I find out today.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Again,

This goes totally against what they state on their website;

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/clients/sub.cfm?source=forces/nvc/programs/da


*Who can benefit from the disability award?*
You may qualify for the disability award if you are:

a CF member  or Veteran with a: 
service-related injury or disease; or 
non-service-related injury or disease that was aggravated by service. 
a survivor (some conditions apply, please contact VAC for more information).  

Important Notes

You do not need to qualify for a disability award to qualify for some of the other benefits under the New Veterans Charter. 
The disability award is not linked to the Rehab Program. This means, you can be in the Rehab Program but not qualify for a disability award. 
Financial advice
Under the New Veterans Charter, disability awards, detention benefits and death benefits are lump sum amounts. You may wish to seek out the advice of a financial expert to help you manage your lump sum payment. If the payment is $12,500 or more, some, or all, of the fees related to this advice may be paid by our Department, up to a maximum of $500.



Point this out to the Rep when they visit.

I received all of my benefits and payments while serving, although this was before the new Charter, however I was explained that serving members would not be affected by the new Charter.

dileas

tess


----------



## RHFC_piper

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Point this out to the Rep when they visit.



I plan to have a honest to the point discussion with her about my concerns...  and since my wife is home today, coincidentally, she will also throw in her 2 cents, which I'm sure will be even more honest and to the point.  >

I will post details once I have them.. if they're suitable.


----------



## Greymatters

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> 1. Contact the Centre at 1 (800) 883-6094.  Explain your situation that you need a case manager as you have moved (Never mind the last one, and the faults she/had let's concentrate on acquiring some help)
> 
> 2. Contact SISIP at 1-800-267-6681, have your service number at the ready, and ask to speak with someone who can give you the status of your case.
> 
> 3.Your third call of the day will be to the Veteran's Review and appeal board 1(800) 450-8006 .  Explain that you want to appeal the decision by VAC.



You forgot one...   ;D

4.  Keep your situation posted on Milnet.ca, where there are people with good advice who can help you.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Remember, full names.

Write it down, and do  it in front of the rep. so that they see you doing it.

I have been in many a meeting with people from Veteran affairs, that felt their "thoughts and opinions" were actual policy.

I have letters of appology, to prove this, from VAC.

I will post it later this evening, to prove that never feel that you can not speak up, or to these people.

dileas

tess


----------



## kratz

If it has not been said before, I will say it now.

Thank you Tess for your posts around here. Your knowledge and support is appreciated.


----------



## Greymatters

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> We need to stick together and help ech other out, it still blows my mind away that this is lack of support still going on...



Sadly, I am not surprised at all.  I was unimpressed with the system over the last four years, and have yet to see a reason to change my opinion.  In the end, the only people who you can be sure that give a damn about injured soldiers are other injured soldiers.  There are a lot of exceptions scattered across the CF and VAC, but not enough to change the existing problems.


----------



## the 48th regulator

kratz said:
			
		

> If it has not been said before, I will say it now.
> 
> Thank you Tess for your posts around here. Your knowledge and support is appreciated.



Thank you Krantz.

You see I was Severely wounded by gunfire, many moons ago, when this type of thing just didn't happen to Canadian troops.  Being a reservist on top of that did not help.

I have jumped through every hoop, met every type of Bureaucrat, heard every comment from Positive to the most negative, all by people employed by the crown that wore a uniform and didn't.

I vowed that I would not allow, ever as long as I draw a breath, to have an injured person go through the crapolla that I did.

I hope my lessons learned will alleviate the BS, that still, continues to happen to our injured troops today.

genero ferocia decerto 

dileas

tess


----------



## riggermade

I have my appointment with the Legion Rep next week


----------



## 3rd Herd

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Cheers Brother.
> 
> We need to stick together and help ech other out, it still blows my mind away that this is lack of support still going on...
> dileas
> 
> tess



Well tess when did it start ? Getting ready to do a school Remembrance Day talk that has to be "politically correct, does not glorify war, is not controversial, does not reference violence, are a few of the "new" parameters these days I came across this:

"on his return to Toronto he settled down, had a leg removed. Obtained a good job in a Veterans shop, bought a house, produced two children and was a charter member of the now famous War Amputations Association( formerly The War Amputations of the Great War) in the foundation of which he played a leading role.

Back in Canada he and other leg amputees had trouble with their artificial limbs. As always, Treff's ingenuity stood him in good stead. He first devised an improvement of his own artificial leg. He made refinements and minor changes and then made legs for some of his pals. The gadget worked well so he patented his idea and tried to interest the Government in it. They were slow to appreciate it so he sold his rights to a limb manufacturer.

Thereupon the Government reduced his pension. This reduction was was distinctly contrary to a well-known principal established by the Amputation's Association, that an amputee's pension has been earned by the loss of a limb and should not be affected by a man's financial position of future earnings.

Treff did not get a square deal in this matter from the Canadian Government and he felt the matter keenly. He decided to take his wife and two small children back to the Old Country." 

Source:

R. F. Zubkowski CD As Long as Faith and Freedom Last  (page 282)


----------



## the 48th regulator

Just wondering how everyone made out (RP, Corvin)

dileas

tess


----------



## riggermade

According to the Legion Rep I am in for a long fight that the outcome is iffy at best.  Because I did not run to the MIR everytime I had an ache or pain there is very little proof that 21 years of jumping and 25 years of rucksack marches and some silily PT at times caused my O.A. and bad back.

Basically what I got out of this is that I should have spent my career crying in the MIR then Veterans Affairs would help me, but because I did my job and never complained I guess they don't give a flying **** and I am going to be left to my own means


----------



## Greymatters

Did you try the 'accumulated damage' argument? It can be successful if you can show some totals on statistics for number of jumps and other levels of rucksack-carrying activity.  These facts can be used to support late career visits to the MIR, provided you went to the MIR and had this condition noted in your records prior to release, as well as any major injuries encounters that by themselves were not permanent, but could show they contributed to your current condition.


----------



## riggermade

That is what my Doc put on his report especially since it is both feet, both knees, rt hip, back and both shoulders


----------



## Greymatters

Have you got input from 48th Regulator on this yet?  He's got a better grip on the system than I do...  However, PM coming that might help.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Did you try the 'accumulated damage' argument? It can be successful if you can show some totals on statistics for number of jumps and other levels of rucksack-carrying activity.  These facts can be used to support late career visits to the MIR, provided you went to the MIR and had this condition noted in your records prior to release, as well as any major injuries encounters that by themselves were not permanent, but could show they contributed to your current condition.



This is bang on in the direction I would go.  If your personal Doctor makes the assessment that he/she feels it was your service that caused the injuries over time, not some personal degenerative cause, you may use that in your appeal.  In fact when you make an appeal to your claim, you will go to a tribunal.  In that tribunal you can bring anyone...ANYONE, that you wish, to help prove a claim.  With a  medical practitioner present it will add weight to your argument.

Sit with your doctor, and explain the situation and come up with a plan.  When you contact Veterans Review and Appeal Board they will assign a lawyer that will help you present your case to the tribunal.  Tell that representative what you are going to do with regards to your doctor, and the legal counsel will note that when you go to in front of the board.

dileas

tess


----------



## X-mo-1979

I'm sorry if this belongs somewhere else.I took a look and couldnt find anything.

Can someone please enlighten me as to why a monthly pension for injury was taken away from soldiers?At first  I thought it was maybe a new "better"system.However getting a 3000 dollar check for a busted beyond leg...and no other payments (unless the condition worsens)just does not seem right or fair to me.A 500 dollar tax free check could aid my family,like when I transition to civilian life and have to take a day off here and there due to this injury which I plaguing my life.

Wasnt pensions a sort of gratitude to vet's for being injured.A bit of a income to assist them?Telling me my leg is damaged 5 % and giving me a little sum and a pat on the head doesnt sit well with me at all.Is there something I'm missing here?


----------



## riggermade

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Did you try the 'accumulated damage' argument? It can be successful if you can show some totals on statistics for number of jumps and other levels of rucksack-carrying activity.  These facts can be used to support late career visits to the MIR, provided you went to the MIR and had this condition noted in your records prior to release, as well as any major injuries encounters that by themselves were not permanent, but could show they contributed to your current condition.



An update on my case.  I had my apeal i Dec using this argument and in Feb I found out I won 5/5 for rt knee and hip, 3/5 for back.  At the end of Apr they decided they didn't have enough medical history and I have to see one of their doctors, am still waiting for an appointment, God knows when that will be, they don't sem to be in a hurry


----------



## Rifleman62

My experience on two occasions is that the P.E.I. head office says they need a medical assessment, then takes 6+ months to get you in to see their MD at the nearest local VAC District office. I suggest you contact your VAC service officer you have been assigned and pester him/her every ten days to get in to see the District MD.


----------



## Greymatters

riggermade said:
			
		

> An update on my case.  I had my apeal i Dec using this argument and in Feb I found out I won 5/5 for rt knee and hip, 3/5 for back.  At the end of Apr they decided they didn't have enough medical history and I have to see one of their doctors, am still waiting for an appointment, God knows when that will be, they don't sem to be in a hurry



Congrats! You might not win every case, but at least you've won a couple of victories...


----------



## Eye In The Sky

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> I'm sorry if this belongs somewhere else.I took a look and couldnt find anything.
> 
> Can someone please enlighten me as to why a monthly pension for injury was taken away from soldiers?At first  I thought it was maybe a new "better"system.However getting a 3000 dollar check for a busted beyond leg...and no other payments (unless the condition worsens)just does not seem right or fair to me.A 500 dollar tax free check could aid my family,like when I transition to civilian life and have to take a day off here and there due to this injury which I plaguing my life.
> 
> Wasnt pensions a sort of gratitude to vet's for being injured.A bit of a income to assist them?Telling me my leg is damaged 5 % and giving me a little sum and a pat on the head doesnt sit well with me at all.Is there something I'm missing here?



IMO, the current policy shouldn't be based on when the claimant filed the claim, but should be when the initial injury happened.  

In my case, I was injured on a jump in '92 and had chronic lower pain from the second I thundered into the DZ, but I didn't file a claim until Sept '05 when I heard about the upcoming changes to the Charter.  I had been VERY reluctant to even speak to VAC about my injury, as I had heard too many stories of members who had filed, been given a disability pension and then found themselves on the release ramp.  I wanted to serve first and foremost so...for 13 years I carried on.  In Nov '04, the results from my MRI showed some substantial injury that had gone untreated all those years.  I was still not considering talking to VAC.  Now, I am glad I did.  

I had never understood though, how VAC/DVA based their "your pension is effective on the date you filed your claim" policy vice the date the injury happened (supporting documents would be critical for this).  Now I feel even more strongly about this point;  members who were injured *before* the new Charter was adopted should (IMO) fall under/be grandfathered to the old charter for payment of disability pensions for injuries incurred during military service.  The policy should tie back to the date of injury, NOT the date of application.  

I have to say IMO the change was a way of saving money in the long run, while giving the injured member more $ immediately, which looks good on paper but doesn't benefit the injured mbr in the long run, but I don't know enough about the policy documents/implementation to have more than just that, my opinion.

My application process seems to be the reverse of what you guys are experiencing, but I have to say it was because of documentation.  I submitted copies of my CF-98 that was properly filled out and signed, along with copies of my MRI report from Nov '04 and a few other selected documents that left no question as to where I was, when it was and if it was directly related to military service.  I mailed my claim application in Sept '05, received my "you have a valid claim" letter from VAC dated 31 Oct 05, and I was in to see the District MO (Hfx Region) in Jan '06.  I attribute the speed of this to the amount of documents I was able to submit with my claim application.

I don't think *we* will be able to change the Charter and its...ummm....changes to pensioners but I think the argument that the claimant should fall under the Charter that existed at the time of injury is one that *we* might be able to win.


----------



## Greymatters

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I had never understood though, how VAC/DVA based their "your pension is effective on the date you filed your claim" policy vice the date the injury happened (supporting documents would be critical for this).



Its cheaper for them that way...


----------



## GAP

Ah....now I see....

Last week there was a thread here were a young fellow was wanting to know how he filed with VAC for a broken foot. I queried why he would want a pension for a short term problem, but I was right out to lunch .......


----------



## Greymatters

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Can someone please enlighten me as to why a monthly pension for injury was taken away from soldiers?At first  I thought it was maybe a new "better"system.However getting a 3000 dollar check for a busted beyond leg...and no other payments (unless the condition worsens)just does not seem right or fair to me.A 500 dollar tax free check could aid my family,like when I transition to civilian life and have to take a day off here and there due to this injury which I plaguing my life.



Some injuries get lump sum payments, others get monthly payments - depends on the injury and current guidelines for compensation. 



			
				X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Wasn't pensions a sort of gratitude to vet's for being injured. A bit of a income to assist them?Telling me my leg is damaged 5 % and giving me a little sum and a pat on the head doesnt sit well with me at all.Is there something I'm missing here?



While some people think its a 'present', the purpose of the pension is to compensate for injuries that prevent being able to be employed to the best of your abilities.  Not being able to perform certain everyday functions, ranging from minor to major disabilities, hampers your ability to be employed to the best of your abilities and can limit how much income you could have earned if you were fully healthy (i.e. not being able to stand on your feet for most of an 8 hour work day eliminates a wide range of work that a person could perform, thus limiting their employment opportunities).  It also accounts for new training or equipment you need on a daily or occasional basis that isn't covered by VAC, or medications needed as part of treating or maintaining a condition (i.e. over the counter medications that arent covered).  It could also be used for increased clothing costs for new clothes altered to conceal or accomodate a physical injury that VAC doesn't cover.  There are other examples of how this compensation works, but those are a couple.


----------



## X-mo-1979

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Some injuries get lump sum payments, others get monthly payments - depends on the injury and current guidelines for compensation.



Really?I was talking to a few buddys who have body parts missing.they said they are being given 10% of what that leg is worth and thats it.My injury is going to be plagueing me for the rest of my life.I will never do some of the things I wished to do.
Fact is when I get out what the hell can I do?I am a very outdoor oriented person.So what do I have to do?Work in a office for the rest of my life?Fact is this injury is due to military service in Afganistan,documented and investigated.Yet I get a % of what they believe my leg is worth.Lump sum of maybe 4000 and then what?Are they going to augment my pay when  I can only stand outside for 5 hrs a day without being crippled?

I was under the assumption monthly payment died off when Afganistan kicked off.


----------



## Greymatters

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> I was under the assumption monthly payment died off when Afganistan kicked off.



PM sent...


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Greymatters said:
			
		

> PM sent...



GreyMatters,

Is there anything you can share in the thread WRT to montly payments for injuries sustained *after* the new Charter was adopted 01 Apr 06?

It might help some people in the same situation as X-mo, or others who are reading this thread but not posting.

As someone pensionsed under the old charter, and I think the change to the new Charter lump sum payment was a totally horrible thing to do to injured service mbr's past/present/future that should be revisisted and reversed.


----------



## riggermade

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> GreyMatters,
> 
> Is there anything you can share in the thread WRT to montly payments for injuries sustained *after* the new Charter was adopted 01 Apr 06?
> 
> It might help some people in the same situation as X-mo, or others who are reading this thread but not posting.
> 
> As someone pensionsed under the old charter, and I think the change to the new Charter lump sum payment was a totally horrible thing to do to injured service mbr's past/present/future that should be revisisted and reversed.



I would be interested in this info as once I see a Doc I will have to what I get for compensation


----------



## Greymatters

Sorry, mine started before the new charter came into affect, but I certainly disagree with the lump-sum concept - I see it as completely counter to the concept of rehabilitation and support for injured personnel - off the bat, it doesn't take into account that a persons injuries can degenerate further or require care not considered at the time of decision.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Sorry, mine started before the new charter came into affect, but I certainly disagree with the lump-sum concept - I see it as completely counter to the concept of rehabilitation and support for injured personnel - off the bat, it doesn't take into account that a persons injuries can degenerate further or require care not considered at the time of decision.




The Lump sum payment, can be reviewed at any time in the future, and if deemed  that a further payment must be made one will.


The services provided do not change, for the veteran, it was the method of payment.

The Veteran's charter, BTW, is also a living charter.  This means that it can be changed without having to be reviewed by parliament.  This being said, it is still in a form of a "trial phase".  Please also note that VAC also implemented Vocational training, which was not offered freely before.  That being said, the concept of the lump sum payment is to help with Financial difficulties, while one is taking education to be integrated into the civilian workforce.  There are also other funds available, to further help the veteran.


Don't get me wrong, I have many challenges with this lump sum payment, particular those injured Mentally, as self medication is a method to numb the pain.  Hand a persona  lump sum, you might as well ship them a loaded pistol with the cheque.


However, let us not get confused that the new charter, and the concept that it is a one time payment goodbye take care of yourself idea.

dileas

tess


----------



## Greymatters

Thanks for clarifying, I don't have as much knowledge as you do on this subject......


----------



## Greymatters

*(US) VA Simplifies Compensation Rules for PTSD*

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=55597

WASHINGTON, Aug. 24, 2009 – The Veterans Affairs Department is taking steps to help veterans seeking compensation for post-traumatic stress disorder, VA Secretary Eric K. Shinseki announced today.

...VA is publishing a proposed regulation today in the Federal Register to make it easier for a veteran to claim service connection for PTSD by reducing the evidence needed if the stressor claimed is related to fear of hostile military or terrorist activity. Comments on the proposed rule will be accepted over the next 60 days, and a final regulation will be published after consideration of all comments received, VA officials said.  Under the new rule, VA would not require corroboration of a stressor related to fear of hostile military or terrorist activity if a VA psychiatrist or psychologist confirms that the stressful experience recalled by a veteran adequately supports a diagnosis of PTSD and the veteran's symptoms are related to the claimed stressor.  Previously, claims adjudicators were required to corroborate that a noncombat veteran actually experienced a stressor related to hostile military activity. This rule would simplify the development that is required for these cases, officials explained...


----------



## riggermade

Finally got a doctors appointment on 16 Sept, of course I have to drive North Bay.  Blowa me away that livivg next to the largest base in Ontario you still have to go to Ottawa or North Bay to dee one of their doctors.


----------



## X-mo-1979

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> The Lump sum payment, can be reviewed at any time in the future, and if deemed  that a further payment must be made one will.
> 
> 
> The services provided do not change, for the veteran, it was the method of payment.
> 
> The Veteran's charter, BTW, is also a living charter.  This means that it can be changed without having to be reviewed by parliament.  This being said, it is still in a form of a "trial phase".  Please also note that VAC also implemented Vocational training, which was not offered freely before.  That being said, the concept of the lump sum payment is to help with Financial difficulties, while one is taking education to be integrated into the civilian workforce.  There are also other funds available, to further help the veteran.
> 
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I have many challenges with this lump sum payment, particular those injured Mentally, as self medication is a method to numb the pain.  Hand a persona  lump sum, you might as well ship them a loaded pistol with the cheque.
> 
> 
> However, let us not get confused that the new charter, and the concept that it is a one time payment goodbye take care of yourself idea.
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess



I'll tell yah what I got the biggest issue with.One member I know hurt his back back in 2002,he gets 680 dollars every month for the rest of his life.To get 60% lump sum for a back your in a wheel chair.The max payout is 250000..and that isnt happening for a 60% back disability.

What do you have then?

So heres two guys.One is going to get a paycheck to aid in helping out with his family.Not to mention he is still fit for work.However if he wishes to switch to civilian work to have a easier life on his back he has a income.What does the lump sum of 5000 dollars do?Sweet F all.

I'll tell yah the boat I'm in right now.
My leg is messed up bad.It is constant pain,constantly popping out of joint due to missing and ripped tendons.I have kids and a wife I support.

So what the hell do I do?Basically I have come up with one option of suffering through the ruckmarchs and runs etc and applying for a OT to a easier job.Why?Because I joined the army at 17 years old and have zero education.I have nothing to fall back on.And if I were to actually go and claim how bad this leg is I would get medically released with a couple thousand dollars and a boot in the ass.

Keep in mind this leg would be worth about a grand a month 6 years ago.A pension to use to aid my family,as the reason I am a gimped up 28 year old is due to my service to my country.

What do you honestly thing ripped tendons are worth?2% of what a leg is worth.....maybe.


----------



## BinRat55

Are you serious? It sounds to me as if you beleive the minute you apply to VAC you will be released. Slow down - there's a longer process than that. If you can "suffer" through ruck marches and runs, then you just may still meet your MEL's AND qualify for a disability award. And it's not a simple "2% of 250,000" either. The CF will take some or all the blame for your injury. Sometimes it's pretty cut-and-dry. Sometimes it ain't. This is decided in "fifths". In my case, the CF took full responsibility for my injuries. I was awarded 5/5ths. The second part of the formula is in percent. This is based on a number of factors - quality of life, pain levels, extent of injuries, etc... A VAC doctor will more than likely assess these factors based on a visit with you and the board will provide a percentage. 

If you are awarded 3/5ths @ 33% it will look something like this:

$267,364 * .67 (3/5) = 179133.88 

179133.88  * 33% = 59114.18

So, for someone in this boat who qualified for an award and meets his/her MEL's it's not too bad. Works out to about 500 a month for 10 years. Definately not as good as the monthly pension, but one could straighten a life out with that kind of dough. 

And did I mention that once you qualify, you are entitled to full medical care and some other nice, helpful things.


----------



## X-mo-1979

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Are you serious? It sounds to me as if you beleive the minute you apply to VAC you will be released. Slow down - there's a longer process than that. If you can "suffer" through ruck marches and runs, then you just may still meet your MEL's AND qualify for a disability award. And it's not a simple "2% of 250,000" either. The CF will take some or all the blame for your injury. Sometimes it's pretty cut-and-dry. Sometimes it ain't. This is decided in "fifths". In my case, the CF took full responsibility for my injuries. I was awarded 5/5ths. The second part of the formula is in percent. This is based on a number of factors - quality of life, pain levels, extent of injuries, etc... A VAC doctor will more than likely assess these factors based on a visit with you and the board will provide a percentage.
> 
> If you are awarded 3/5ths @ 33% it will look something like this:
> 
> $267,364 * .67 (3/5) = 179133.88
> 
> 179133.88  * 33% = 59114.18
> 
> So, for someone in this boat who qualified for an award and meets his/her MEL's it's not too bad. Works out to about 500 a month for 10 years. Definately not as good as the monthly pension, but one could straighten a life out with that kind of dough.
> 
> And did I mention that once you qualify, you are entitled to full medical care and some other nice, helpful things.



Cheer's
I am believe I am not going to meet my MEL's.In regards to the fifths is that 5/5 if I have a battle group commander signature saying it was directy related to military service in a combat area,would that be 5/5 or am I confused.


----------



## riggermade

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Cheer's
> I am believe I am not going to meet my MEL's.In regards to the fifths is that 5/5 if I have a battle group commander signature saying it was directy related to military service in a combat area,would that be 5/5 or am I confused.



They will look at your complete medical history.  When I won my appeal my arguemeny for my knee, hip and back were all the same but because I had one incident outside work they only gave me 3/5 for my back and 5/5 for my knee and hip.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

I am still trying to wrap my head around this 1/5  5/5 stuff you guys are talking about.  Mine is pretty simple...10% disability lumbar spine area...I never heard of this 5/5ths and blah blah blah.  

I don't believe, however, that what DVA assess's you at has much of a bearing on your Med Cat.  DVA says I have a disability at 10%, yet my Med Cat is 1-1-1-2-2-2 and I've never had ay MELs.  

I called for an update on my file WRT ancillary beneits (got married last June) and was told there is a minimum 18 week backlog in that department.  They must be hurtin' staff-wise...its pretty simple.  They take my marriage certificate, add it to my file, click the "married" box on my electronic profile, calculate my backdated benefits and mail out the letter to me.  18 weeks to wait for 10 minutes work.  Wow.


----------



## X-mo-1979

I agree eye in the sky
I have never heard of the 5th's either.Ever brief we had by VAC has been a percentage.Not to mention hearing good buddies who were injured on our tour talking about getting 10% pension for their arm being all messed up etc.

I know of one who gets 5% for a leg due to the damage from a IED.Ony 5 % of his leg is messed in their opinion so he gets 5% of what a leg is worth.

I also had a buddy who only lost a percentage of toes...he was originally told he didnt "lose enough" to get a pension!That later was changed and get got 2000 bucks for a couple toe pieces missing.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

I think *some* of the new charter is better for us (rehab, retraining if released, etc) but the "lump sum payment", new tables etc for pension/payouts seems to be a kick in the junk IMO.  I feel guilty getting $320 a month for a jump injury in peacetime, while guys/gals are coming home from a theatre with injuries and they are getting the shaft (again, IMO).


----------



## Occam

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I am still trying to wrap my head around this 1/5  5/5 stuff you guys are talking about.  Mine is pretty simple...10% disability lumbar spine area...I never heard of this 5/5ths and blah blah blah.



If you go back and read your award letter, you'll see how it was calculated - and there was a "Pension Entitlement" assessment given to you for your condition.

From http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/clients/sub.cfm?source=dispen#a03



> Pension Decision
> 
> Pension Entitlement is
> 
> * Based solely on the relationship between service and disability;
> * Awarded in fifths: from one-fifth (1/5), if service played only a minimal part in the cause or worsening of the disability, to five fifths (5/5) if the disability was incurred during, or was caused in its entirety by military service;
> * Entitlement may also be awarded for a disability which is a consequence of a pensioned service-related disability.
> * Guided by Entitlement Eligibility Guidelines, policy statements used in determining the relationship of your medical condition or disability to military service.
> 
> Entitlement Eligibility Guidelines
> 
> Thirty-five Entitlement Eligibility Guidelines were implemented on May 1, 2002 addressing approximately 50 commonly claimed medical disabilities. Two additional Entitlement Eligibility Guidelines have been implemented on April 1, 2006. The Entitlement Eligibility Guidelines (back) are now available for viewing. These Entitlement Eligibility Guidelines replaced portions of the Medical Guidelines publication. The only medical guidelines, within the current Medical Guideline publication, that are still in effect, are those guidelines for which there are no released EEGs.
> Frequently Asked Questions: Entitlement Eligibility Guidelines(back)
> Assessment of Disability
> 
> * Relates to the level and the extent of the disability;
> * Established by the information provided with the application; where information is insufficient, a medical examination is arranged with a VAC doctor;
> * Ranges between 0% and 100%;
> * Based on VAC's Table of Disabilities (back) to ensure similar assessments are awarded for similar disabilities.
> 
> 
> Pension Payable
> 
> The pensionable assessment, which is determined by multiplying the entitlement (1/5 to 5/5) by the assessment (1% to 100%), determines the rate of pension payable, e.g. 3/5 x 25%=15% pension. When there is more than one pensioned disability, the assessments are combined:
> 
> * between 1% and 4% results in:
> o a one-time lump-sum payment - there is no monthly pension.
> * 5% or more results in:
> 1. payment of a monthly pension which is indexed annually on January 1st;
> 2. an additional sum paid to the disability pensioner on behalf of:
> 1. a spouse/common-law partner, but not a former spouse/former common-law partner;
> 2. children under age 18, or between 18 and 25 if studying full-time, or if incapacitated;
> 3. some restrictions apply.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Tks for that info...but my pension was filed/approved in '05, so I am one of the "old charter" guys.  I don't recall the 5ths stuff on anything I ever received from DVA, hence me not really wrapping me head around it.

And...well I am kind of SMRT to boot so... ;D


----------



## Occam

That is the method for calculating the Pension Act payments.  

New Charter people get lump sums, remember?

I guarantee you'll find a "Pension Entitlement" figure on your award letter.   I have a tinnitus pension at 5% x 5/5 = 5% (under the Pension Act).


----------



## riggermade

Just an update on my case

Saw the Doc in North Bay 16 Sept,  three weeks to the day I was called and told a cheque was cut, received it last week and am now awaiting the paperwork to see what exactely has been decided on my condition


----------



## BinRat55

Riggermade - I see the doc in Saint John on Monday. I was awarded 5/5ths in April on appeal. I was told that my file HAD to be closed NLT June ... of 09!!! I have 5 seperate diagnosis (both shoulders) - maybe that's what is throwing it off...


----------



## riggermade

I had rt knee, rt hip, back and the doc relooked at my feet although they didn't change their decision on that


----------



## Gavin Flett

I'm not sure if this is how I Post a message as this will be the first time I do so. But I was injured in 08 and am now having issues with VAC as to my level of compensation, plus I'm staring down the barrel of a 3B release. If there are any other soldiers out there who are experiencing the same treatment then email me at gavin_flett@hotmail.com and we can discuss issues there. 

I'm after changing the system of how they deal out their compensation and I need help. From what I read, there are a lot of you out there and I hear your anger. So I'm urging you to all to contact me, I know if we make our cases known then we can get policy changed.

Plus does anyone know where I can find a copy of how DVA assesses each injury and how much each injury is worth?


----------



## the 48th regulator

VAC Services and Benefits

VAC Disability Rate Charts


Since you state you are releasing 3B, you will be advised by your local IPSC/JPSU where you will be placed on the VOC rehab program now being run by VAC.

dileas

tess


----------



## pinger206

Hello,

    I'm just a newbie here, but not with dealing with the DVA. My 20something% under the old charter is from the 80's. Some very good points and links from occam and 48 reg. What helped me the most was/is keeping every shred of paperwork, x-ray, specialist, rehab. report, you name it. I think my civie doc even has my 30 y/o MIR files. Bureau Pen. Adv. helped me a long time ago, but now their... cubicle, is inside the DVA office (arms length?). Anyone got thoughts on the QOL questionaire? How often you get it and what if any  impact it really has? I thought it was for flipping survey purposes! 
Someone was wondering about examples or case histories? I think the tab is buried in the VRAB site. Pages of real cases. Their Act is very informative as well. Knowledge is power. pinger.
   A fifth of what!


----------



## BinRat55

riggermade said:
			
		

> Just an update on my case
> 
> Saw the Doc in North Bay 16 Sept,  three weeks to the day I was called and told a cheque was cut, received it last week and am now awaiting the paperwork to see what exactely has been decided on my condition



Rigger - they told me 12 - 16 weeks!! 3 weeks is pretty fast... (the doc told me 22% not including the QOL factor...)


----------



## BinRat55

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Rigger - they told me 12 - 16 weeks!! 3 weeks is pretty fast... (the doc told me 22% not including the QOL factor...)



Rigger - got it in 5 weeks!


----------



## Rifleman62

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20100116/minister_thompson_100116/20100116?hub=QPeriod

The Canadian Press

Date: Saturday Jan. 16, 2010 10:42 AM ET

ST. STEPHEN, N.B. — A federal cabinet minister is leaving politics. 

The Prime Minister's Office has confirmed that Veterans Affairs Minister Greg Thompson has resigned from cabinet. 

The New Brunswick MP told the New Brunswick Telegraph Journal in an interview that he won't run in the next federal election but will represent his southwest New Brunswick riding until the vote is called. 

There were reports last week that Prime Minister Stephen Harper would shuffle his cabinet. 

It was not expected that any of his front-line ministers would be affected. 

The 62-year-old Thompson told the Telegraph that _he has achieved a great deal, he's tired and he doesn't want to overstay his welcome. _  Thompson has represented his New Brunswick constituency since 1988.

I am sure he is talking about being a MP, not as the Minister of Veterans Affairs.


----------



## mikeninercharlie

When you attend the PK Memorial events, ask the reps from the various veterans organizations why the majority of them sold current service members down the river with their support of the New Veterans Charter...  I choose to remember my fallen brothers (UNEF 2, UNFICYP, UNPROFOR) in my own way, and not alongside those who were complicit in creation of woefully inadequate NVC. Those who are responsible for this travesty should hang their heads in shame.


----------



## Kat Stevens

mikeninercharlie said:
			
		

> When you attend the PK Memorial events, ask the reps from the various veterans organizations why the majority of them sold current service members down the river with their support of the New Veterans Charter...  I choose to remember my fallen brothers (UNEF 2, UNFICYP, UNPROFOR) in my own way, and not alongside those who were complicit in creation of woefully inadequate NVC. Those who are responsible for this travesty should hang their heads in shame.



Quit beating around the bush and tell how you really feel, Mike.


----------



## mikeninercharlie

OK, no more beating around the bush...

The question should be, why did the leadership of the various veterans organizations sell current service members down the river with their support of the New Veterans Charter?
Was it the generous honoraria, was it being wined and dined in Ottawa or, was it the rounds of golf in PEI that caused you to lose perspective.   
Those of you who are responsible for this travesty should hang your heads in shame.
Scrap the NVC and create a program that shows some respect for our injured brothers and sisters by allowing them to maintain their dignity as they, and their families, struggle with consequences of their injuries for the remainder of their lives!


----------



## Greymatters

mikeninercharlie said:
			
		

> Was it the generous honoraria, was it being wined and dined in Ottawa or, was it the rounds of golf in PEI that caused you to lose perspective.



Well, one can only speculate as to what they were thinking or their motivation.  It may be too convoluted for we of the lower levels of peonhood...


----------



## dogger1936

Whom in the veterans organisations were instrumental on this new veterans charter. I would LOVE to talk with them. Not to mention use them in future emails/ letters to politicians which wont be replied to. They sold tomorrows/ todays veterans out. Maybe some scar pic's can be attached to ammounts paid out due to their decisions. maybe a little visual of what they have done to many soldiers lifes will strike home.


----------



## Sabre1967

As I read these posts my eyes started to well up. I cannot believe some of the things I am reading. How is it that our government and has allowed this to come to such a monumental dissapointment. When I served in the mlitary I believed I was giving of myself 110%. I took pride in my job and the manner in which it was done by myself and my crew, Squadron, Regiment etc. When a task was at hand I carried it out to the best of my ability. Sometimes going above and beyond to complete the task, pushing my body beyond sleep, pain etc. Thats what being a soldier and duty was about; I thought! Now VA tells me all that was just my stupid belief. None of that matters anymore when after 24 years service you live in pain and your 43 year old body is that of a 80 year old. I myself was denied once again for disabilty. The beaucratic &%#@ in Ottawa feel that the constant pain and degenerative discs in my back and neck are merely from normal aging. Has nothing to do with the fact that I spent hours in cramped conditions (Tanks, APC's etc) on manouvers cross country etc. 
I have come to the conclusion: Disablity isn't paid to make us go away.........It's paid so that they can !
I read about "Accumulative Joint Trauma" on the VAC website. Has anyone successfully received disability from claiming it? How did you go about it?
Please....Any help would be greatly appreciated........advice etc. More than anything all I want is to get on with my life and just maybe, perhaps have some assistance with managing this pain and discomfort for the rest of my life.
This constant fight for benefits that our Veterans have to endure needs to stop...


----------



## Nemo888

Try light swimming for about a year Sabre. My surgeon made me do it and I thought he was insane for the first 8 months.


----------



## Sabre1967

I feel your frustration brother. I'm undergoing much of the same fight here. Go have a look at "Cummulative Joint Trauma" on the VAC website. It might give you another avenue to approach. Good luck... 



			
				riggermade said:
			
		

> According to the Legion Rep I am in for a long fight that the outcome is iffy at best.  Because I did not run to the MIR everytime I had an ache or pain there is very little proof that 21 years of jumping and 25 years of rucksack marches and some silily PT at times caused my O.A. and bad back.
> 
> Basically what I got out of this is that I should have spent my career crying in the MIR then Veterans Affairs would help me, but because I did my job and never complained I guess they don't give a flying **** and I am going to be left to my own means


----------



## Sabre1967

Sorry for the rant !


----------



## Wookilar

I don't even know what to say about this..... I am a firm believer in the federal system as we currently know it, but in order for the system to work effectively we have to trust large parts of the system to the beaurocrats involved.....

With the intentional PERSEC leaks and now this, my faith in the senior beaurocrats at VAC is very quickly fading.....

Wook


----------



## mike63

Same boat here.  I once sat in a 'hearing board' for about 15 minutes trying to explain about my leg injuries, I had 2 operations on my lower legs, injuried during pre-deployment trg to go over to Kabal in '05, and not understanding what these 2 civilian lawyers didn't get.  They kept on telling me that I didn't have to the operations, that was my choice, I could have stopped the trg or just simply got out!  I was medically released in '08 due to one of these operations not working out so good causing permanent nerve damage to one of my legs.

It was at that point that I shot out of my chair, pulled up my pant legs and showed them the 4, 10 inch long scars on both my legs.  I asked each one what Regt or unit they served with, both said that they never served in the military, that's when I told them 'then shut the f**k-up you flat-faced civie pukes, you haven't got a freaking clue what we go through, nor are you in any position to tell me what I should have done!"  Well that didn't go over very well with them and the board was adjourned on the spot and I was asked /escorted out the door by the 60+ year old Commissionaire, who by the way later told me that was the funniest thing he had ever heard someone say to those 2 lawyers.  He said that it wasn't going to help my case, which it didn't, I had to appeal there decision all the way to Charlottetown and get the help from a Legion Lawyer to win but I finally won...4 years later.

Each time you sit at one of those boards you leave with the feeling that you had to 'beg' for a positive decision just to get $150 out of them, I always felt belittled and embarrassed at the whole 'show'.
I am thankful that all my claims come in a monthly payment.  I do not agree with the new charter and this 'lump sum payout',  that's just another slap in the face to our soldiers and their families. Simply unacceptable!

Sorry for this long 'rant' but, every time someone asks me about my VA pension and the VA in general, I just get so pissed off, only 4 Bacardi white rum and coke will calm me down, which isn't so bad now that I think of it!


----------



## dogger1936

Thanks all. I've been reading this with interest. needless to say I am ready for a fight. I'm hoping mine will go smoothly and i'll have nothing to complain about. 

I personally wasnt going to put in for a pension but was basically forced to d oso by my DR's. basically if I didnt get a claim going I wouldnt be covered by bluecross for my injuries. I've broken my back and dislocated my shoulder about 10 years ago and I still havent claimed that at all...as It's not affecting my life. 

Right now I submitted all CF 98's and filled out all paperwork about 4 months ago. never heard much and was about to call. Got a phone call from a very friendly lady at VAC who wanted to get some dates that were a bit vague and confirm I was indeed male...as for some weird reason one accident referrs to me as female throughout.....anywho aside from the jokes that just set me up for... ;D


I didnt know the dates offhand and told her to call me back in 20 minutes as I consulted my UER. About a week after that I called to check up and was told it was sent off to Charlottetown PEI. Two days ago I got a letter saying a decision was going to be made within 23 weeks.


I really hope I don't end up having to appeal. Army soldier snr nco or not I will go to the media....it appears that is the only way to solve problems in the military/VAC today.... to think I hated the media a mere 2 years ago!


----------



## mike63

Well buddy, I hope things do go well for you.  The one comment that always never did sit well with me was, "they always deny your first request..."  Why do they do that?  There is no reason why that should happen.  If you have all the proper paperwork (CF98s, witness statements etc...) there is no reason why a decision can't be made the first time around.  And if they don't, like all soldiers are prepared for, go in with both barrels blazing...you don't have anything to lose!


----------



## heavy reader

Hey folks.

I've got some experience as an advocate with VAC.  If you are truly stuck, drop me a private message with your phone number and I'll see if I can be of assistance.  Looking to put my skills into action for anyone who serves.

I'm in Halifax.

Ubique!


----------



## Greymatters

heavy reader said:
			
		

> I've got some experience as an advocate with VAC.



Some examples of common mistakes military members make when submitting their applications would probably be appreciated...


----------



## dogger1936

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Some examples of common mistakes military members make when submitting their applications would probably be appreciated...



I found the lady at VAC done all the paperwork for me. She even called me to remind me to bring in all my cf98's. Basically I had to sign twice and that was the extent of my work. I'm guessing you had a differnt experience?


----------



## Greymatters

Better than some, but not as bad as experienced by others; I just think that an insider would be able to shed some light on why so many members have difficulties with their claims...


----------



## Wookilar

I just received my notice of date for my Review Board. I haven't talked to the lawyer yet.

Anyone have any advice on how I should approach it? Other than not reaching across the table and throttling one of them?

Wook


----------



## the 48th regulator

Wookilar said:
			
		

> I just received my notice of date for my Review Board. I haven't talked to the lawyer yet.
> 
> Anyone have any advice on how I should approach it? Other than not reaching across the table and throttling one of them?
> 
> Wook




Organize all the fact you have, so you can present them to the tribunal in favourable manner.  Include any new medical documentation, that will support your review.

You can also bring witnesses to speak, including family members.

dileas

tess


----------



## Cdnleaf

Wookilar said:
			
		

> I just received my notice of date for my Review Board. I haven't talked to the lawyer yet.
> 
> Anyone have any advice on how I should approach it? Other than not reaching across the table and throttling one of them? Wook



I went through it in 2002 over a leg injury.  Prior to the Board, I met with the lawyer and asked him directly what I needed to do and more importantly what he needed me to do and say in order to win.  Things worked out.  Good luck / all the best.


----------



## mike63

Wookilar said:
			
		

> I just received my notice of date for my Review Board. I haven't talked to the lawyer yet.
> 
> Anyone have any advice on how I should approach it? Other than not reaching across the table and throttling one of them?
> 
> Wook



Don't loose your head if things appear if they are not going your way.  Not saying that will happen, it happened to me, I lost my cool head, called the 2 members on the board a few chosen names, got escorted out of the hearing and had to appeal my case all over again, which took almost another year.  Don't do that...it's not worth it really.....lol....


----------



## Wookilar

Thanks all.

Mike, I'll try to resist  ;D but it might be difficult. I'll play that part by ear lol.

Wook


----------



## mike63

Wookilar said:
			
		

> Thanks all.
> 
> Mike, I'll try to resist  ;D but it might be difficult. I'll play that part by ear lol.
> 
> Wook



Yep, difficult it might be but that is just something you will have to put in the back of your cool head.  All I asked the board members was what unit they had served with after they told me that my injuries couldn't have been that bad.  After they both told me that they NEVER served in the military...well that's when I lost it, jumped out of my seat, pulled up my pant legs and showed them all my surgery scars.  I then proceeded to tell them something to the effect that how could 2 flat-faced civies have the balls to tell me what they just said....and that's when the battle took an unexpected turn against me!


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## 57Chevy

48thReg.
               I have a question, and you seem to be aware of certain procedures. So...
How long after recieving a negative decision from the Review board would you get any type of answer from the Pension Advocates in Charlottetown ?

Thanks.


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## the 48th regulator

57Chevy said:
			
		

> 48thReg.
> I have a question, and you seem to be aware of certain procedures. So...
> How long after recieving a negative decision from the Review board would you get any type of answer from the Pension Advocates in Charlottetown ?
> 
> Thanks.



If this is a negative decision, for your initial claim, the onus is on you to contact them.

Veterans Review and Appeal Board

_The Board provides applicants with two levels of redress for disability pension and disability award decisions and the final level of appeal for War Veterans Allowance claims. Applicants have access to free representation (case preparation and presentation at Board hearings).

    * Review Hearing: This is the first level of redress. It is the only time in the process when applicants may appear before the decision-makers to provide oral evidence and tell their story.

    * Appeal Hearing: This is the second level of redress. It is a further opportunity for the representative to make oral or written arguments in support of a claim.
_

Representative Organizations

If you are not satisfied with a disability decision, you can contact a “representative” (an individual who acts on your behalf and helps present your case during hearings) to assist with your Review or Appeal before the Board.

The Bureau of Pensions Advocates, a free legal service provided by the Government of Canada, presents most Reviews and Appeals to the Board. Other service organizations, such as the Royal Canadian Legion or The War Amps of Canada, also represent applicants.

To find a representative contact:
Bureau of Pensions Advocates
Phone toll free: 1-877-228-2250
Web site: www.vac.acc.gc.ca (Opens a New Window)
(Search "BPA")

The Royal Canadian Legion
Phone toll free: 1-877-Legion6
(1-877-534-4666)
Web site: www.legion.ca (Opens a New Window)
(Under "Service Bureau," click on "Service Officers.")

The War Amps of Canada
Phone toll free: 1-800-465-2677
(Ask for the Service Bureau)
Web site: www.waramps.ca (Opens a New Window)


Stack the cards in your favour, gather as much evidence as possible, and work with your reps to turn the decision around.

dileas

tess


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## 57Chevy

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> * Appeal Hearing: This is the second level of redress. It is a further opportunity for the representative to make oral or written arguments in support of a claim.



This is where I am at.
The Veterans Review and Appeal Board of which I attended did not render a favorable decision concerning my condition.
I did ask for an appeal to that decision. It has been forwarded to the Area Advocate at the Bureau of Pension Advocates in Charlottetown.
How long does it take them to make a decision ? (I don't think there is place at that level for any other representative except the Area Advocate.)
The letter I recieved from my Pension Advocate states that "the Area Advocate will confirm the registration of your appeal before the Tribunal and will advise you". (So... How long would that normally take ?)

I know very well that all dealings with Veterans Affairs takes a long long long long time.
But is there not some kind of time limit that they must abide with.
BTW my lawyer could not understand the negative decision as my docs are clear and in very good order.
And the hearing went very well and seemed to be justifiably in my favour.


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## the 48th regulator

57Chevy said:
			
		

> This is where I am at.
> The Veterans Review and Appeal Board of which I attended did not render a favorable decision concerning my condition.
> I did ask for an appeal to that decision. It has been forwarded to the Area Advocate at the Bureau of Pension Advocates in Charlottetown.
> How long does it take them to make a decision ? (I don't think there is place at that level for any other representative except the Area Advocate.)
> The letter I recieved from my Pension Advocate states that "the Area Advocate will confirm the registration of your appeal before the Tribunal and will advise you". (So... How long would that normally take ?)
> 
> I know very well that all dealings with Veterans Affairs takes a long long long long time.
> But is there not some kind of time limit that they must abide with.
> BTW my lawyer could not understand the negative decision as my docs are clear and in very good order.
> And the hearing went very well and seemed to be justifiably in my favour.




The timing is under six months, however, with the overwhelming applications, and appeals, they do not guarantee a time limit anymore unfortunately.

They have created a much larger elephant in the room, and use the usual bureaucratic caveats to justify delays.  Unfortunately, this affects us greater, with the anxiety of the wait.

dileas

tess


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## 57Chevy

Thanks  48th

Yes indeed.........ANXIETY............I guess there is no better word.


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## Occam

57Chevy said:
			
		

> This is where I am at.
> The Veterans Review and Appeal Board of which I attended did not render a favorable decision concerning my condition.
> I did ask for an appeal to that decision. It has been forwarded to the Area Advocate at the Bureau of Pension Advocates in Charlottetown.
> How long does it take them to make a decision ? (I don't think there is place at that level for any other representative except the Area Advocate.)
> The letter I recieved from my Pension Advocate states that "the Area Advocate will confirm the registration of your appeal before the Tribunal and will advise you". (So... How long would that normally take ?)
> 
> I know very well that all dealings with Veterans Affairs takes a long long long long time.
> But is there not some kind of time limit that they must abide with.
> BTW my lawyer could not understand the negative decision as my docs are clear and in very good order.
> And the hearing went very well and seemed to be justifiably in my favour.



I think you know this, but the Area Advocate in Charlottetown does not make the decision - they represent you in front of the VRAB at the final appeal hearing.  They make the decision.

For what it's worth, I too had a claim which, by all accounts, was cut and dry, all the evidence was in order, all the references were cited, yet the review hearing was not favourable.  It was only before the appeal hearing that they put all the pieces of the puzzle together and made the right decison - I owe a lot of that to the BPA lawyer who handled my final appeal.  It wasn't rocket science, but VRAB sure made it seem that way.

From the unfavourable decision at the review hearing to the final appeal decision took about eight months in my case.  It was only finalized a few months ago, so that should give you a recent snapshot of the wait you're facing.


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## Wookilar

Boy....you guys sure aren't giving me a warm and fuzzy about next Friday.

Here's hoping it goes well, and here's me preparing to continue the fight.

Wook


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## Greymatters

57Chevy said:
			
		

> BTW my lawyer could not understand the negative decision as my docs are clear and in very good order.



This is an oft repeated line from VAC lawyers.

Almost every lawyer I deal with tends to know why they lost or will lose their decisions when they go to court, mediation, or arbitration - any experienced VAC rep lawyer should be able to do it too.


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## 57Chevy

I asked my lawyer about similar "precedent cases",
and if those cases would help the panel to understand
or perhaps shed a bit more light on my case.
She mentioned that it would, but failed to come up with any.


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## dogger1936

Well they have started!

My injury they have sent me back a letter stating that it was sprained and not broken with all tendons tore...even thought there are cf-98's to back it. I have to get re assessed by one of their dr's SOMETIME next year.Lovely.

I did recieve 10% for PTSD, cut and dry. However I have to wait to be "leveled out". When I asked what that was....I will be leveled out in April apparently! I'm glad VAC has crystal balls to tell me come April I'll be as bad or as good as I get.

I took the 10% paid off all but one Bill. Put the rest into savings to pay off my camper hopefully early next year. This will leave me debt free in case I am forced out.


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## mike63

If for what ever reason anyone gets turned down (denied) after their appeals, turning to the Legion is the way to go.  I had to go this route after I was turned down on my last appeal to the VA.  I just contacted the local Legion Branch, they put me in contact with their rep from Ottawa. Within 2 days he contacted me by phone, we set up a face-to-face appt, which took place at the Legion within 2 weeks.  I provided him with copies of all the paperwork from the VA and off he went running.  Within 2 months of that meeting, I received a letter from the VA stating that they looked into my case and my monthly payment went from #515.00 to $1,015.00.   I have nothing but praise for that Legion rep!


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## Buzzy05

I'm new here but really in need of some help please. I am still kind of clueless, stressed to the max and really need advice or a helping hand. Thank you!


 I was in the army from Jan 08 - Sept 2010 Reg force. I passed my BMQ. I did my DP1 infantry course made to week 6 was taken off for shin splints. Went back on another course week 13/14 injured my right shoulder rotator cuff/ac joint during the sgt. demonstration in cqc training. We had a course party that night after the day of training to London, ON so I told them it was injured and didn't feel right at all left it alone. We went for are trip and then were asked to move beds a room to accommodate sleeping arrangements as I was moving the bed my shoulder felt wierd so i let the bed go. I told the NCO's they said when we get back go to mir... I did as soon as we got back. They said they bed movement may have irritated it more but was not enough damage to cause what happened and said it was clearly from cqc. I went back to the shacks and told them what was going on gave them my chit and a NCO said he would have a CF98 filled out on my behalf and get the fellas to write witness statement because I couldn't even tie my own boots up or make a fist even. I had files from mir, civi side xrays. I graduated and was sent to battalion injured. Well of course if your injured as soon as you get there things are going to be said.. Didn't bother me much at first but after missing out on training and not being able to do much it started really bothering me what was being said and how I was being treated so began to drank. Well the problems from there went down hill, and quick. Began a drinking problem got in serious crap from it and extent of problems was charged released with service no longer needed in Sept 2010. When I was at battalion I was going to physio went for 6 months...  went to mri... had surgery. I was on T-CAT until Nov 20... I had my surgery 2 weeks before my release date. The NCO's were telling me it wasn't right and they didn't know that I could be released while on T-CAT. When I asked what I should do and what will I do they told me to contact unemployment and go from there. My fiancee and I had to move back to my hometown with my dad and he is barely making it by and my brother who is 22 also lives with him and has no job because this town has a huge lack of employment (although he is moving out with friends end of feb) and my fiancee had to move back to her hometown 12hrs away due to my father couldn't support all of us while her and myself were waiting for EI (still together just got back from there over holidays). I had my claim injury in about 3 or 4 months priors to my release as I was told to do it by a NCO. I thought the entire time the Canadian forces and VA ware the same organization until after questioning and asking around. After hearing people and talking to people previous members of the forces, family and friends they all said I was crazy for leaving the issues alone and I have rights and what happened to me wasn't right at all. I applied for EI and starting receiving it as I was healing from my surgery. I was unable to make my 3 weeks physio dates due to quick relocation as we couldnt afford to live on are own anymore.. I then contacted VA they told me about what they do and were great and very helpful sent out few documents. Two weeks ago my claim came back....

We are unable to grant you disability award for Right Shoulder Rotator Cuff Tendinopathy and Bursitis (Operated) under section 45 of the canadian forces member and veterans re-establishment and compensation act (CFMVRCA), Regular Force service

Key Evidence
We have considered all of the available evidence including:
-Medical Attendance Record dated 23 Jan 2009, 22 Oct 2009, 10 Nov 2009, and 03 Dec 2009.
-Physiotherapy consult forms dated 26 January 2009 and 02 December 2009.
-MRI dated 12 Feb 2010
-Consultants report dated 27 April 2010
-Record of Operation dated 16 August 2010.
-Medical Examination for Release dated 31 Aug 2010.

Reasons for decision
-Documentation dated 23 Jan 2009 and 26 Jan 2009 indicate that you sustained acromioclavicular joint trauma in your right shoulder when moving a bed and struck shoulder on wall/door frame.  
-However documentation dated 10 Nov 2009 records that you were at battle school, cqc training. wrestling, thrown down and injured your shoulder January 2009.
-Subsequent documentation records that you were treated with physio and eventually had surgery on 16 August 2010 with a postoperative diagnosis of Right Shoulder Rotator Cuff Tendinopathy and Bursitis.
-While there is evidence of a right shoulder injury in 2009, there is no evidence such as a report on injuries witness statements to confirm that you sustained a service related injury to your right shoulder.

Conclusion:
-As a result, we must conclude that your right shoulder rotator cuff tendinopathy and bursitis did not arise out of, and is not directly connected with, your regular force service.


(I was walking at slow pace moving bed and felt pain when i was carrying it and happened to barly move into a door?) 
(I also yesterday contacted old NCO through email about my CF98 and he said he has no idea what ever happened to it and doesn't remember because it was 2 years ago and there been 30 courses in and out of there)

I then contacted VA and asked them what happened and why? They told me basically what the letter said.. and was given a number for Bereau of pensions advocates and contacted them they took ym name and number and said could be between 2-4 weeks before I receive a call for a date for phone interview. 

VA also let me know my case manager was going to come see me about some of the forms they sent me. I will be seeing her tomorrow afternoon. 

I can't live here with my dad he can barly afford to live himself, My shoulder is healed to a certain extent I would say but I can still feel aches, and pains. There is no work here. I went to college for policing/corrections and my fiancée went to university and I am in now so much debt with the huge pay cut, not being able to work for a better hr wage then I get form EI, I was released form the Canadian forces while on t-cat and just received surgery. I had no idea on what and where to go for information and was limited to resources. After talking to many people... I was told to use civi laywers, VA, contact parliamentary board, go to the press all kinds of things. I'm tired, I'm stressed to the max, financial nightmare and as you can imagine not to happy but I still keep my head up and hope for good things and keep going.

 All I'd like is to be able to feel comfortable again with my shoulder, be able to get back out in the working field and work my tail off so I can, try to get this debt and mess sorted out and once again be with my fiancée and try to restart a life with her who I been with for almost 4 years. Everyone has finally pushed me over the edge as I was just going to try to figure something out without any help except EI which is not possible in the current situation to go to the next step and not stop until I receive compensation, physio & surgery if needed again, and final answers to how I was released with no back up plan, just receiving surgery and am now in a huge mess!


I am so in depth with the details that I tried not to miss anything if any questions please ask...  I pray someone out there can help me, lead me in some kind of direction on what's next? or give me advice on what I should do? People to contact with information? Anything at all that may help me.

Thank you very much for taking the time to read all of this.

**I will update the post tomorrow with info on how I made out with my case manager**

Thanks again.

UPDATE - After she came she asked me a few questions and what not. She sad over and over how bad she feels for me. She also suggested working at mcdonalds, or tim hortons.. I grabbed the flyer and showed her who is hiring in this town one place and its for welding. Population of 9000 there is no work. She said she would have to go back and talk to her peers but in the mean time she said keep trying for the compensation for your shoulder injury. 
Also when the lady and I were talking she was very shocked about the very short notice of release then I had surgery, was on sick leave for 2 weeks then had 2 days to sign/clear out of battalion. She did however advise me I should put another claim in for depression as there is a paper trail for that and can obtain a doctors note.



NCO's have said them self I was doing so well after everything was done and over with and couldn't see me getting the boot unless I had to go to jail for extended time. The left foot isnt walking with the right ... And there is numerous of people who want answers like myself and want this to be looked into and will keep pouring info and trying to get answers from any source needed. The army was suppose to be my step and to do a tour get the experience and then after a few years try for rcmp. The organization always says were a family... Well a family doesn't kick you out with no where to go and limited info. I'll never forget that captain when i asked where to go or whats my next step he said go to service canada and apply for e.i. No help was givin it was a quick release and see ya later...A former member who served almost 30 years I talked to and he broke down and couldn't believe it himself. I do volunteer work here to keep my self busy while on unemployment with the local church, and kids that suffer from autism. The community is ready to back me 100%


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## 57Chevy

Buzzy05 said:
			
		

> While there is evidence of a right shoulder injury in 2009, there is no evidence such as a report on injuries witness statements to confirm that you sustained a service related injury to your right shoulder.



It may be difficult but you need to find witnesses from the time of the injury. Along with that, (but may not be necessary) 
a statement/explanation from the instructor as to how the injury was attained would also help your situation.



			
				Buzzy05 said:
			
		

> As a result, we must conclude that your right shoulder rotator cuff tendinopathy and bursitis did not arise out of, and is not directly connected with, your regular force service.



Their conclusion is based on the lack of witness statements as mentionned above.
:yellow:


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## Buzzy05

57Chevy said:
			
		

> It may be difficult but you need to find witnesses from the time of the injury. Along with that, (but may not be necessary)
> a statement/explanation from the instructor as to how the injury was attained would also help your situation.
> 
> Their conclusion is based on the lack of witness statements as mentionned above.
> :yellow:




Worse part about it is the sgt just lost his leg and arm overseas about 6 months ago so to get any info or contact on him is hard as you can imagine what he is going through to get back on track. In the mean time I have sent several e-mails as I have a few key people who reach me through inbox on army.ca and have provided me with very very useful info. If this site didn't exist I would be in deep water... I see i have miss out on a lot of things, and there was def. somethings that were put under the rug as I was released.


----------



## 57Chevy

57Chevy said:
			
		

> This is where I am at.
> The Veterans Review and Appeal Board of which I attended did not render a favorable decision concerning my condition.
> ---
> ---
> I know very well that all dealings with Veterans Affairs takes a long long long long time.



I know this is an old thread but,
that is how long it took for the Veterans Review and Appeal Board to make a decision,
and it's a hard pill to swallow.

Quote: "The Departmental Entitlement eligibility guidelines for osteoarthritis reveal that trauma may cause osteoarthritis in a joint; however, for trauma to cause osteoarthritis, the signs and symptoms must be present within 25 years of a specific trauma."

Because my osteoarthritis signs and symptoms took longer than 25 years to develop, I am not entitled to any compensation.
Go figure.
What recourse do I have now ?


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## Wookilar

Next step is an Appeal Hearing: http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/department/organization/review
Another 21 weeks is what they are claiming.

After that is Judicial Review to the Federal Court.
See the thread about the Ombudsman's report on those. Interesting reading.

Wook


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## 57Chevy

57Chevy said:
			
		

> What recourse do I have now ?



None.
Unless I can provide new medical evidence, the decision made in Charlottetown is binding.
I don't have a family doctor, so I have fallen through the cracks like so many others have.
Thanks for nothing VAC


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## Wookilar

Seen, didn't read high up enough.

It's an appeal to the federal court now, but I have no idea how to start that.
Given the Ombudsman's report on the Federal Court decision rate, I would certainly look into it.

Wook


----------



## Rifleman62

The VRAB website (Brochure - Review and Appeal Hearings http://www.vrab-tacra.gc.ca/Publications/Brochure-eng.cfm) states:


> What can I do if I am not satisfied with an Appeal decision?
> 
> Decisions of an Appeal panel are final and binding - unless they contain an error of fact or law, or new evidence comes to light at a later date. If you are still not satisfied, you should contact your representative to discuss other options available to you.



Well hidden, and not well known is the third level of redress, the *Request for Reconsideration*. This third level of redress is not considered “as of right”. In other words, if an Appeal level decision contains an error of fact or an error of law, or if new evidence comes to light at a later date, the VRAB can be approached for Reconsideration. The tabling of new evidence at Reconsideration must meet a test of “Due Diligence”. Additionally, the VRAB has the right to screen out a Request for Reconsideration. _My understanding is that incredibly, the same Board members who ruled on an Appeal Hearing will form the Reconsideration panel, if they are still available. _

Here is the reference in the regulations: http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-96-67/page-1.html#h-3

Your Bureau of Pension Advocates lawyer may tell you you are just wasting your time and he/she has never seen a positive result for the Vet. Mine did, but he is a dip shit.


----------



## Cdnleaf

57Chevy said:
			
		

> I know this is an old thread but,
> that is how long it took for the Veterans Review and Appeal Board to make a decision,
> and it's a hard pill to swallow.
> 
> Quote: "The Departmental Entitlement eligibility guidelines for osteoarthritis reveal that trauma may cause osteoarthritis in a joint; however, for trauma to cause osteoarthritis, the signs and symptoms must be present within 25 years of a specific trauma."
> 
> Because my osteoarthritis signs and symptoms took longer than 25 years to develop, I am not entitled to any compensation.
> Go figure.
> What recourse do I have now ?



Ask for disclosure of, or request the references that are used for the Departmental eligilibity guidelines.  Research the scmidt out of osteoarthritis development subsequent to joint trauma; like become the Army.ca SME on osteoarthritis and joint trauma.  (Hopefully) with a view of providing medical information to challenge the current VAC guidelines in order to request reconsideration.  I was diagnosed with osteoarthritis in my right ankle related to a service related injury; it developed <15 years and is quite common according to the specialist in Ottawa.  Good luck with the process.


----------



## 57Chevy

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> if new evidence comes to light at a later date, the VRAB can be approached for Reconsideration.


 The "new evidence"  in my favor, provided by a physician, was not even presented to the VRAB for consideration.



			
				Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Your Bureau of Pension Advocates lawyer may tell you you are just wasting your time and he/she has never seen a positive result for the Vet. Mine did, but he is a dip crap.





cdnleaf, 
I have been looking into that for a while now. I firmly believe that the 25 year limit VAC guideline on symptoms of osteoarthritis is a loophole they use against you. It seems to contradict being a veteran for life.


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## Rifleman62

> Application for Reconsideration are handled by a Reconsideration Unit at the Bureau of Pension Advocates Head Office in Charlottetown. Should you wish to be counseled about the feasibility of advancing an Application for Reconsideration, please forward your request in writing, outlining the basis of what you believe is any significant error of fact or law made by the Board. The Reconsideration Unit will review the decision and will counsel you accordingly. You will also be advised as to what, if any, new evidence would be needed to advance an Application for Reconsideration on your behalf.
> 
> You may communicate with the Reconsideration Unit by writing to the following address:
> 
> Reconsideration Unit
> Bureau of Pension Advocates
> PO Box 7700
> Charlottetown, PEI
> C1A 8M9


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## 57Chevy

PM received 
Reply inbound


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