# VAC - What to do when they make an error???



## snowball17 (21 Jul 2011)

I am hoping that one of you can help me.. To make a long story short I put in a claim which was favourable.  They granted me 5% until their doctor could do an assessment - as I had to wait because my condition was not considered stable.  I went to their doctor and had the assessment done, was granted an increase from 5% to 15% but at 4/5ths. I had made a formal request for the pension office to explain why I was granted only 4/5ths and not the full 5/5ths as there was nothing specific on the letter explaining why. I received a letter about 2 weeks later saying they made a calculation error and I had been granted 5/5ths and they were going to forward me the difference.

I have not heard anything more about this claim which is now almost 3 years old. This year I put in a claim for something that was consequential to the first claim. I received a favourable decision saying that I had been granted 5/5ths at 15%. When the letter arrived it said that I was only receiving 5% of that amount due to a "ERROR" 

They said that when I had put in my first claim that the pension officer used the wrong chart to assess my disability. They used the 17.2 chart when they should have of used the 17.6 chart. Due to " THIER ERROR IN USING THE WRONG CHART"  I should have of only been awarded 5% at 5/5ths, and that they were taking back the money that I was over paid due to this error.

My question is.. It was their error.. they used the wrong charts.. I had this condition assessed "THREE" times.. they used the same chart every time a review was done on this condition. Why did they not catch this error before now? Can they legally withold money from the second claim because of their error?? I really don't think this is fair.  When I talked to the pension officer I said that I wanted to appeal it because I did not think this was fair, and that I should be penalized for their error, which they have openly admitted to. The pension officer said I would never win because the legal department would be all over this, and because it was a good faith error and not done out of maliciousness, I would not win.

Has anyone ever heard of something like this before? Does anyone know what I can do, or who to contact? I have asked a few people and everyone so far has been in total shock over this, and cant believe it.. 

Any ideas???


----------



## Fishbone Jones (21 Jul 2011)

snowball,

Quit dicking around with these idiots. You live in Ontario. Make an appointment with Trial Lawyers for Veterans. They have an office in Ottawa. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain. There service is free and you get real lawyers, that are not beholden for their jobs to the VAC. No matter how much they say that VAC lawyers work for you and not VAC, through my own experiences, I'll never believe them. I'm heading for appeal, again, and will not be consulting with VAC on this one. I will let real lawyers that are not afraid to embarrass VAC for their shortcomings, handle this one.


----------



## Pieman (21 Jul 2011)

^^ I could not agree with recceguy more.  It boils down to paper work, and beating the bureaucrats at their own game. If you have a lawyer on your side you got some big guns to go in there with. 

I have been very fortunate dealing with VAC, so far.  I happen to be pretty good at paper work, and know where/when to apply pressure. If I wasn't good at that, I often wonder if I would have gotten any help from them at all.

Keep at it and applying pressure.


----------



## snowball17 (21 Jul 2011)

Thanks for the info.. I went to the website and sent an email with my contact information so that someone can get back to me.  I have never had an issue with VAC before... my first application was approved, no appeals or anything.  When I did have questions regarding percentages and how they came up with their ratings they were more than happy to answer any questions I had. Even when I questioned the calculation error 4/5ths vs 5/5ths they corrected it very quickly and sent me out a letter acknowledging their error.  I did however review the chart again tonight that they said should have of been used for my injury and my condition is not even listed in that chart, other than the notation at the bottom of the chart that makes reference to other conditions within this chart will be merited on a case by case basis...

I guess I must naive, because I had no idea that I had any other options, and I am starting to wonder how many other people have been affected by errors like this???


----------



## snowball17 (18 Aug 2011)

I had posted a while ago about my feelings with VAC, and the fact that VAC used the wrong chart when they assessed my condition, and with this they penalized me by withholding over $27,000 on my next claim. My condition was assessed 3 times by VAC, and they never picked up on the error. It was not until I was awarded another 15% at 5/5Th's did they send me a letter saying they had used chart 17.2 instead of 17.6, and because of this error I should have of only been awarded 5% at 5/5Th's, and as such they would only be sending me a check for a little over $15,000 rather than the $42,595 I should have of been awarded. I did not even get an apology or anything. I ask you all, how can they do this and get away with it? I thought that if they made the error, and it was in my favour they would let me know of the error, but not penalize me for it? Some of you had suggested to call the Ontario Lawyers that are working with members who are having troubles with VAC. I did call. They said that there is nothing they can do until I exhaust all of my other options. The lawyer that I talked to told me to approach the Bureau of Pension Advocates, with the appeals board, then the Legion, then the Obunsamen, then if nothing could be done about it by then as a last resort he may look at my case and help me.. 
I have left several messages with The Bureau of Pension Advocates, and so far they have not returned my call. Does anyone else have any ideas, or what I should do next? Does anyone else know anyone else that has had these types of problems, and how would you handle them and fix it? I just feel that if they make a mistake, they just cant take money away and not even apologie for their error.. If I had made an error they would be jumping all over me to make it right, return the money or threaten to refuse further benefits or programs.. but it seems like they can do what they want to who ever they want, and they don't have to answer to anyone for their errors! I would love for everyone to please speak freely


----------



## the 48th regulator (18 Aug 2011)

snowball17 said:
			
		

> I had posted a while ago about my feelings with VAC, and the fact that VAC used the wrong chart when they assessed my condition, and with this they penalized me by withholding over $27,000 on my next claim. My condition was assessed 3 times by VAC, and they never picked up on the error. It was not until I was awarded another 15% at 5/5Th's did they send me a letter saying they had used chart 17.2 instead of 17.6, and because of this error I should have of only been awarded 5% at 5/5Th's, and as such they would only be sending me a check for a little over $15,000 rather than the $42,595 I should have of been awarded. I did not even get an apology or anything. I ask you all, how can they do this and get away with it? I thought that if they made the error, and it was in my favour they would let me know of the error, but not penalize me for it? Some of you had suggested to call the Ontario Lawyers that are working with members who are having troubles with VAC. I did call. They said that there is nothing they can do until I exhaust all of my other options. The lawyer that I talked to told me to approach the Bureau of Pension Advocates, with the appeals board, then the Legion, then the Obunsamen, then if nothing could be done about it by then as a last resort he may look at my case and help me..
> I have left several messages with The Bureau of Pension Advocates, and so far they have not returned my call. Does anyone else have any ideas, or what I should do next? Does anyone else know anyone else that has had these types of problems, and how would you handle them and fix it? I just feel that if they make a mistake, they just cant take money away and not even apologie for their error.. If I had made an error they would be jumping all over me to make it right, return the money or threaten to refuse further benefits or programs.. but it seems like they can do what they want to who ever they want, and they don't have to answer to anyone for their errors! I would love for everyone to please speak freely




I do not understand how you were penalized.

They made an error, corrected it, and awarded you what you were entitled to.  The only fight you have is to prove that you desrve to assessed by the 17.2, take both charts to the Doctors you have had asessing you, and ask them what should have been used.  

Other than that, you have no fight.  you were not "Penalized" but given an assesment that reflects your injuries, as were judged by the clinicians that saw you, not VAC.  VAC made a clerical error, and adjusted.  

I don't know what else to tell you.

dileas

tess


----------



## snowball17 (18 Aug 2011)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> I do not understand how you were penalized.
> 
> They made an error, corrected it, and awarded you what you were entitled to.  The only fight you have is to prove that you deserve to assessed by the 17.2, take both charts to the Doctors you have had assessing you, and ask them what should have been used.
> 
> ...



It was the VAC doctor who did the assessments and used the 17.2 chart not the 17.6 chart. I feel I was penalized because of their error using the wrong chart they are witholding money that I believe I am entitled to. It was not like my doctors used the wrong chart, or that I made an error. I think that if they make the error then they should be accountable, and we should not receive an adjustment etc.. this is just my opinion though!


----------



## dapaterson (18 Aug 2011)

snowball17 said:
			
		

> It was the VAC doctor who did the assessments and used the 17.2 chart not the 17.6 chart. I feel I was penalized because of their error using the wrong chart they are witholding money that I believe I am entitled to. It was not like my doctors used the wrong chart, or that I made an error. I think that if they make the error then they should be accountable, and we should not receive an adjustment etc.. this is just my opinion though!



In other words:  if VAC makes a mistake and gives you too little money, they should pay you the difference.

If VAC makes a mistake and gives you too much money, you should keep it all.

 :facepalm:


----------



## the 48th regulator (18 Aug 2011)

snowball17 said:
			
		

> It was the VAC doctor who did the assessments and used the 17.2 chart not the 17.6 chart. I feel I was penalized because of their error using the wrong chart they are witholding money that I believe I am entitled to. It was not like my doctors used the wrong chart, or that I made an error. I think that if they make the error then they should be accountable, and we should not receive an adjustment etc.. this is just my opinion though!



If your argument is that your Doctor stated that you fall under one chart, and VAC using a different chart for their descision, then you have a case.

If you want to profit on a clerical error, then I ask as a wounded veteran to stop clogging the system with your selfish demands.  There are hurting members, veterans, and and families suffering from such selfish acts.

dilies

tess


----------



## snowball17 (18 Aug 2011)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> If your argument is that your Doctor stated that you fall under one chart, and VAC using a different chart for their descision, then you have a case.
> 
> If you want to profit on a clerical error, then I ask as a wounded veteran to stop clogging the system with your selfish demands.  There are hurting members, veterans, and and families suffering from such selfish acts.
> 
> ...



What I am saying is that when I applied for my condition I was sent to a doctor from VAC to do my medical assessment. He used Chart 17.2 to do his assessment. He sent the paperwork to the pension officer who then sent me a letter stating based on the doctor's assessment I had been awarded 5% at 4/5ths. I was also told that I needed a reassessment from the VAC doctor 6 months from that time so that my condition could stabilize. I had my appointment 6 months later and saw another doctor at the VAC office again and was given a medical assessment. I then received a letter saying they have increased my award from 5% to 15% at 4/5ths. I asked for clarification on my award because I was injured while on duty so I did not understand why I only was awarded 4/5ths not 5/5ths. They then said after a careful review of my case they have came to the decision that a clerical error was made and that I should have of been awarded 5/5ths not 4/5ths and that they were forwarding me another check to pay me out the difference.
It was not until I claimed a second injury did they send me notification that the previous assessments were all done using the wrong chart, and they were taking back 27,000 Dollars - they say that the other chart 17.6 should have of been used and with this chart I should have of been only awarded 5% which is the maximum for this chart. My condition does not even fit into this chart. My argument is VAC assessed me, VAC doctors did  my physical evaluation, and the VAC Pension officers calculated my condition using these charts. I don't think they should be allowed to take back money already awarded - especially if it was their fault, and of no malaise or neglect or deception on my part!


----------



## Occam (18 Aug 2011)

If I understand this correctly:  The VAC doctor initially diagnosed a condition X.  Condition X is dealt with using Table 17.2.  When you were re-examined six months later, a second doctor assessed your condition X.  VAC then adjusted your disability level for condition X from 5% to 15%, and you later had the partial entitlement factor raised from 4/5 to 5/5.  When you later made a claim for an unrelated medical condition, you were told that Table 17.6 should have been used to determine your level of disability on the previous claim, even though your diagnosed condition X doesn't have anything to do with Table 17.6?

Have I got that right?

If so, have you talked to Bureau of Pensions Advocates about it?  If no, why not?  They're there to represent you.


----------



## 57Chevy (18 Aug 2011)

Snowball
After reading your latest post,
I agree with occam, get in touch with the Pension Advocates ASP
and get the ball rolling.


----------



## snowball17 (19 Aug 2011)

Occam said:
			
		

> If I understand this correctly:  The VAC doctor initially diagnosed a condition X.  Condition X is dealt with using Table 17.2.  When you were re-examined six months later, a second doctor assessed your condition X.  VAC then adjusted your disability level for condition X from 5% to 15%, and you later had the partial entitlement factor raised from 4/5 to 5/5.  When you later made a claim for an unrelated medical condition, you were told that Table 17.6 should have been used to determine your level of disability on the previous claim, even though your diagnosed condition X doesn't have anything to do with Table 17.6?
> 
> Have I got that right?
> 
> If so, have you talked to Bureau of Pensions Advocates about it?  If no, why not?  They're there to represent you.



YES! Thank you, that is exactly right!! I thought maybe I was not being clear enough. I have left a couple of messages with the Bureau of Pension Advocates but so far they have not returned my phone calls. I have been calling the 1-877 number which goes directly into the Ottawa Office. Does anyone have another phone number or contact name/email for them that I may have so that I can try another method of reaching them? I had spoken to a case manager from VAC who works at my local JPSU Unit, and she said they are quite busy, so that I need to be patient while waiting for a call back. She said to follow up with a phone call every couple of days until I either reach someone or until they return my phone call. My opinion is I think they sometimes move at a slow pace returning phone calls and answering inquiries because some members might get discouraged and say" forget it", and decide not to pursue their claims or case any further once they are denied, or when they are given a "low ball" award for their service related injury!


----------



## Occam (19 Aug 2011)

BPA is busy, there's no denying that.  I would continue with the phone call every couple of days routine until you hear back from them.  Don't be too critical of BPA - while technically they come under the VAC umbrella, they are there to represent you when challenging VAC decisions.  I can tell you firsthand that they do so with your interests in mind, not VAC's "bottom line".  The BPA lawyers I've had were excellent and they got me the benefits that were supposed to be awarded even though VAC fought them every step of the way.

The "Trial Lawyers for Veterans" site was mentioned way up at the first reply in the thread - keep them in mind if and when you get to the point where the VRAB has made an unfavorable decision, and your only avenue left is an appeal to Federal Court - that's when they will represent you, but not before.


----------



## the 48th regulator (19 Aug 2011)

snowball17 said:
			
		

> YES! Thank you, that is exactly right!! I thought maybe I was not being clear enough. I have left a couple of messages with the Bureau of Pension Advocates but so far they have not returned my phone calls. I have been calling the 1-877 number which goes directly into the Ottawa Office. Does anyone have another phone number or contact name/email for them that I may have so that I can try another method of reaching them? I had spoken to a case manager from VAC who works at my local JPSU Unit, and she said they are quite busy, so that I need to be patient while waiting for a call back. She said to follow up with a phone call every couple of days until I either reach someone or until they return my phone call. My opinion is I think they sometimes move at a slow pace returning phone calls and answering inquiries because some members might get discouraged and say" forget it", and decide not to pursue their claims or case any further once they are denied, or when they are given a "low ball" award for their service related injury!



Thank you Occam for translating that, 

snowball17 I would also contact the VAC umbudsmon office, as this borders on unprofessionalism on VAC's part.  It will also set a presedence, and ensure no other cases end up in the same way.

dileas

tess


----------



## blackberet17 (1 Dec 2011)

Not sure what # you're using, but 1-877-228-2250 is the number for the BPA HO, located in Ch'town. Yes, BPA is very busy. They have one to three reps per District Office, so depending on your geographic location (i.e. proximity to a large city center or CF base), you may have a bit of a wait, unfortunately.

Also, call your BPA district office, there is an office in every province. Click on the appropriate links for the interactive map herehttp://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/contact to find yours. The page hasn't been working for me to get numbers, but keep trying.

BPA is the first route for you to take at this time. When you get a hold of someone there, tell them you want a Ministerial Review of the decision which has put you in a clawback position. Hell, ask for a review of the last two or three decisions.

What BPA will then do is ask for the Ministerial Review. If unsuccessful, you have three (roughly) cracks at the next level, the Veterans Review and Appeal Board (VRAB).

If that doesn't work - and it will take time to exhaust these routes - go to the Ombudsman.

Any questions, feel free to PM me. This is my bread and butter... literally. I work at VAC. Always happy to help out a fellow CF Member with their VAC questions and stuff. While I can't go into your specific personal file, I can help with general questions and so on.

Cheers!


----------

