# Balancing Reg & Res Roles in the Navy (From : Army wide Class B employment freeze!!! )



## kratz (14 Oct 2009)

WRT the Naval Reserve Establishment Review and Validation
Study (NERVS) thus employment justifications and budget controls, there have been two of these reports since 2000. IAW the NERVS reports, NavRes through MARCOM employ various class B positions to actively monitor and control class B positions through a priority system of employment.

Yes, after the NERVS reports there has been reorganization with NavRes and some rationalization of postions. From my perspective, there has not been system wide freeze on employment while answers are found. 

As the Navy would say, IMO, the divisional system works from top down and back again on this issue.  :nod:


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## dapaterson (14 Oct 2009)

Were the navy (and CF writ large) to be working properly and in accordance with the NDA, we would have ongoing full-time positions filled by the Regular Force - which includes tasks currently assigned to the Nav Res.

That half the NavRes is on class B or C for routine operations  and sustainment suggests a broken Navy, not a functional one.


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## gcclarke (14 Oct 2009)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> That half the NavRes is on class B or C for routine operations  and sustainment suggests a broken Navy, not a functional one.



Yes, it is indeed rather widely recognized that the Navy's manning issues are, well, dire. We've got enough problems as it is keeping the heavies filled to really worry about whether or not we've got too many Shads running the minesweepers. The fact that we are violating the *spirit* of the NDA is, frankly, the least of our concerns. 

And yes, I do say spirit of the NDA, as while the reserves in general may be operating on a continual, full time basis, our Class B Reservists are not. There's a reason we make them take extra time off.

As fixing the "problem" by delegating the task of running the Kingston Class to the Regular Force would result in an almost immediate mothballing of the majority of those assets, I highly suggest that we not worry about it and move on to stuff that we actually have to worry about. Issues slightly more important than semantics.


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## dapaterson (14 Oct 2009)

It's not semantics.  And the "extra" break is generally the 35 days so we can pretend to not be violating the CFSA as well.

Rather than putting up our hands and saying "To accomplish task X we need resources Y", we fumble and almost make do - but sacrifice the future, or abandon any pretense of having a real "reserve" that we could call on should there be a dire situation.  It only hurts us in the end.

Of course, given the growing number of very senior Reg F officers getting out and double dipping, we'll protect that to the ends of the earth.  The units that are regularly putting soldiers out the door on operations?  Well, they're a lesser priority.


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## gcclarke (14 Oct 2009)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> It's not semantics.  And the "extra" break is generally the 35 days so we can pretend to not be violating the CFSA as well.
> 
> Rather than putting up our hands and saying "To accomplish task X we need resources Y", we fumble and almost make do - but sacrifice the future, or abandon any pretense of having a real "reserve" that we could call on should there be a dire situation.  It only hurts us in the end.
> 
> Of course, given the growing number of very senior Reg F officers getting out and double dipping, we'll protect that to the ends of the earth.  The units that are regularly putting soldiers out the door on operations?  Well, they're a lesser priority.



I'm not going to argue what the other elements are doing. But without the reserves running the Kingston Class ships, there goes a lot of our capability to train junior MARS officers, and the last thing we need now is a hit on force generation. As well, we'd have to pick up a lot of the Fisheries and Sovereignty patrols that are currently done by them, which would mean more sailing time for the frigates, so less time for maintenance, leading to them falling apart quicker, as well as more time at sea for reg force sailors, likely worsening our retention issue.

A debate could be made for the level of use of NavRes pers in various HQs, and on projects and such in the centre. But damn do we need them sailing.


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## kratz (14 Oct 2009)

A major point that I have retyped more than once to add to this discussion: When the Navy is called in, the local (nearest) unit respones as the EMR and the rest of MARCOM's assets are brought to bear in a team effort to provide assistance. When a town, province or adrift ship asks for assistance from the Canadian Navy, the request is answered from the entire Navy.

This is a fundamental difference from the Army, Milita concept.



			
				dapaterson said:
			
		

> But damn do we need them sailing


The Naval Reserve's first committment is to augement the Regular Force. In order to do so, Operational Trades MUST have the ability to do their job. What better way than Costal Defense and Port Security?


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## dapaterson (15 Oct 2009)

Augment <> replace.  I do not argue that the work needs to be done; I'm arguing that we've under-resourced the CF to be able to do it properly (that is, IAW the applicable legislation in the proper construct).

A well-designed system would provide training opportunities to serve - so it wouldn't be Reservists taking a few weeks to get/maintain their quals only on one class of ship - they'd be employed throughout the fleet - but not nearly as many on a full-time, permanent basis - the full-time permanent folks are meant to be the Reg F.  A sudden spin up, and a need to surge?  Then we ring the bell and use the Reserves to augment the Reg F on operations - whatever that operation may be.

So we'd see(possibly) a Reg F navy with, say 16 SCSCs plus 8 AOPS, but only a small number of those vessels at elevated readiness.  Routine missions would be scheduled in advance and largely conducted by the permanent full-time personnel (that is, the Reg F); small tasks could bring on reserve augmentees as we do now with the KINGSTON class, and sustained operations such as our increased presence to combat piracy would represent a surge where Reservists would be brought on to fill out holes.


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## kratz (15 Oct 2009)

I enjoy the opportunity to say it is odd to find an augument of Naval Reserve Manning is on MilNet.ca, but this thread has started out how poor Army manning control is happening.

**Edit: To add a link to the National NRD list.  



I was told not to be shy.  ;D


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## Sailorwest (22 Oct 2009)

The problem is that the 10 KIN class, manned primarily with Reservists have been way over tasked with mundane (thought important) missions including MARS training, Fish pats, Sov Pats, and prescious little interesting things to do. This has has the result over the past few years of causing those full time reservists to join the Reg Force. The "Shads", like me, in the NRD's have started to lose interest in the KIN Class and are in no position to be able to support them anymore. So you go from 10 ships to 6 or so now, to less than 5 by next summer. There are very few reservists who will be coming down the pipe to join the ships on a full time basis anymore. The Reg force Navy needs to come to grips with this and accept that they won't have a choice doing those less interesting roles anymore.


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## dapaterson (22 Oct 2009)

What?  You mean after committing a reserve you'll have to reconstitute it?

Gee, all those doctrine PAMs we ignore do have useful things in them after all...


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## gwp (11 Nov 2009)

Just to review:
The tasks assigned to the Naval Reserve are:
. Manning the Kingston Class Ships - a challenge but it works
. Naval Control of Shipping -- very good capability
. Mine Countermeasures -- some kool stuff happening here.
. Harbour Defence - doing a great job
. Admin and Logistic Support -- as it ever was
. Recruiting base -- as it ever was
. Naval presence in 22 inland cities providing community relations and public affairs for the Navy -- varies from city to the city

With the basic mission-
To provide Maritime Command with trained personnel for the manning of combat and support elements to meet Canada's maritime defence objectives in time of peace, crisis, or war.   

The Navy just needs more people regular or reserves.


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## KnightShift (12 Nov 2009)

With regard to the Navy Reserve, how often (on average) would a reservist get the chance to actually spend time on a ship on the water?


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## dapaterson (12 Nov 2009)

gwp said:
			
		

> Just to review:
> The tasks assigned to the Naval Reserve are:
> . Manning the Kingston Class Ships - a challenge but it works
> . Naval Control of Shipping -- very good capability
> ...



Or a willingness to say "can't accomplish these tasks with the resources and legal framework you've given us."

And I'd argue about the NavRes successes:

KIN class: How many can be sustained at once?  And how many are kept going only by rotating crews constantly?

NCS:  Is this regularly practiced, or a "Sure, we can do it" claim?

MCM: New kit is in the pipeline, but is it currently practiced?

HD: You're hiring Army folks perform this task.


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## gwp (12 Nov 2009)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Or a willingness to say "can't accomplish these tasks with the resources and legal framework you've given us."


That applies in a general way to the entire CF


> And I'd argue about the NavRes successes:
> 
> KIN class: How many can be sustained at once?  And how many are kept going only by rotating crews constantly?


There are about 400 people employed to keep 8 to ten operational.  Generallly two are in maintenance. 



> NCS:  Is this regularly practiced, or a "Sure, we can do it" claim?


It is practiced domestically and internationally and has been deployed internationally



> MCM: New kit is in the pipeline, but is it currently practiced?


There is an ongoing mission to survey harbours and the approaches to Canadian harbours using the s state of the arit kit



> HD: You're hiring Army folks perform this task.


A shore, but on the water they are sailors. including divers. 
[/quote]


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## CountDC (13 Nov 2009)

gwp said:
			
		

> There are about 400 people employed to keep 8 to ten operational.  Generallly two are in maintenance.



You say 8 to 10 and earlier Sailorwest stated 6 - so how many are actually fully manned now?  

400 people - is it the same 400 rotating through the ships?

Right now the Navy has a huge manning problem.  NAVRES complains that the Reg F is stealing all their young sailors and the Reg F is complaining all their old experienced sailors are leaving for the NAVRES Cl B positions.

IMO the system is not working and a lot of senior navy agree.  The problem is finding the solution to fix it.  One fix would be to treat all ships the same - mainly manned by Reg F pers augmented by NAVRES for short periods when needed.  Depending on the ship have up to 10 reservists employed for training experience - say up to 6 months at a time - and rotate them back to the unit.

Of course to accomplish this they would have to find some means to get the recruiting done so that they have the manpower.  A start would be the 400 already employed full time to man the ships.


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## whitehorse (13 Nov 2009)

In quotes:

Just to review:
The tasks assigned to the Naval Reserve are:
. Manning the Kingston Class Ships - a challenge but it works
. Naval Control of Shipping -- very good capability
. Mine Countermeasures -- some cool stuff happening here.
. Harbour Defence - doing a great job
. Admin and Logistic Support -- as it ever was
. Recruiting base -- as it ever was
. Naval presence in 22 inland cities providing community relations and public affairs for the Navy -- varies from city to the city


My response is:
Of the 12 MCDVs only 5 or 6 are being manned at this time = Fail
HD - largely being done with Army Reserve augments = Fail
Admin & Log - Where? I cant see where this is happening or for that matter where it was ever required =fail
Recruiting base - based upon our lack of sailors for these other tasks I would also include this in the fail column for the simple reason that if we don't have the bodies to do these day to day tasks how can we really say we are meeting our overall goals? Moreover our ability to recruit is diminishing as more and more Class A's simply leave the system out of disgust and what has essentially become a 'mini-me' version of the Regular Force.

Naval Presence - Also a fail. The CMS has admitted that he has very little presence or impact in most of Canada outside of Vic or Hfx. We have returned to where we were in the 1920s. I would suggest to you that having most NRDS led and operated by personnel (i.e. Class Bs) who are posted there for a few years before returning to Halifax/Vic/Que City is no way to increase the naval presence in these cities. Indeed maybe that is what Walter Hose had in mind in the first place in the 1920s when he first created the RCNVR. That to reach people in these cities it might help to have someone there who was involved in the navy but who was also connected with those cities. Either way fail.

My point in all of this is simply to point out that after 10 - 15 years of running the Naval Reserve like it was the regular force simply doesn't work. Its like running a car at full speed all the time. Some parts wear out faster, others simply fall off. And in the end - Fail.

More important than this discussion is the simple fact that in pursuing the "perma-shad" plan the navy has also lost its ability to be augmented in a time of crisis. Few people remain in the NRDs who are qualified to do anything for the navy and this number is declining - rapidly.

In the end the navy of the early 21st century is rapidly looking like the the navy of the early 20th century. Undermanned, under appreciated, under funded and busily shooting its naval reserve in the foot.


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## dapaterson (13 Nov 2009)

whitehorse said:
			
		

> In the end the navy of the early 21st century is rapidly looking like the the navy of the early 20th century. Undermanned, under appreciated, under funded and busily shooting its naval reserve in the foot.



Unlike the Army Reserve, which tends to go for the self-inflicted head shot...


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## Pat in Halifax (13 Nov 2009)

Very interesting discussion going on here. I can't answer all queries but one I think can be addressed (surprised someone else didn't beat me to it!!) re RegF filling RES and vice versa. Not sure how or when this happened but for many of the trades, the training stream (and subsequent quals at rank) is different.
I do know that behind closed doors, one option when up to 5 HAL class are in HCM/FELEX, is to utilize KIN class for Command training. This will be interim and short term but I have also heard that when AOPs show up, KIN class 'goes away'. 
Unfortunately (or fortunately), our political system means that whatever is the flavour of the day, that is what the Navy gets (or doesn't get). How many programs have come and gone with elections?: Sea King replacement, nuclear submarines, SCSC......
Please know - I love what I do and would change nothing if I could start my career over but I can't help but feel a little relief that I am on the downward slide of my Navy life and I wont be around to see the 2020 Navy-I really do not like my own current vision.


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## Stoker (15 Nov 2009)

Right now a major obstacle to manning the Kingston class believe or not is the Olympics, a lot of trained personnel have been diverted from the ship's in support of the Olympics, class C pay to boot. Another big problem is the maintenance budgets for Kingston class has been put on hold looks like until the end of March. This means no work done unless its safety related. With Afghanistan there's simply not enough money for everyone. I had lots of calls from Kids looking for work on the ships, however there's no money to hire them. I can't blame them from going on to work that's steady. Other problems for manning include the Orca class that we seem to have to man now. There's also a manning shortage at CFFS Quebec for instructors, mainly because no one wants to be posted there. They have been talking about regs taking the ships over for as long as I can remember, however they have their own problems and have no interest. The only regs I see coming on the ships is guys looking to double dip and compete for the few shore jobs we have.


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