# Civi Clothes while in Military vehicles



## GB (26 Apr 2012)

Have a quick question as I tried searching and could not find anything on this (I am lousy on internet/IT stuff  ???  :-[).

My wife asked me if military personel were allowed to wear civilian clothing while driving in a military plated vehicle.  She was on the road the other day and saw 2 crew cab p-up trucks (olive drab painted) and a G-wagon full of personnel and all of them were in civilian clothing.  From when I was in this was strictly a no-no, wondering if this is now allowed as I could not answer her question properly.  (It's one of those things that you say that is a good question, but I don't know the answer).  She also stated they all looked very young around the 18-20yrs of age.

Thanks


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## Redeye (26 Apr 2012)

Happens all the time, as far as I know there's no rule about it as long as the vehicle is being used for legitimate military business.


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## my72jeep (26 Apr 2012)

Back in the 80/90s green fleet must be in uniform civi pattern veh, civis were OK after 4pm but its a new army.


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## aesop081 (26 Apr 2012)

GB said:
			
		

> From when I was in this was strictly a no-no,



Happens all the time. We routinely have troops in civilian clothing driving military pattern. If you live near a base, have you considered that there may be an exercise going on where CF members are playing the roles of insirgents/civilians for training purposes ?

Not everything that looks wrong actualy is.


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## Old Sweat (26 Apr 2012)

There are several scenarios where personnel can travel in military vehicles in civilian clothes. Perhaps the most common is transporting members into a local community for a short pass, or to attend an authorized social function or sporting event.

Easily the oddest one I recall was in Germany in the 1960s, and the details did not reflect well on the collective IQ of the officer corps of the Canadian Army in those days. Yearly the battalion/regimental commanders as well as the OCs of the sub units, BCs, FOOs, Sappers, etc would recce their real world battle positions. To avoid alerting the Red Hordes, these gentlemen would travel to the area in civvies. Par for the course, these often were blazers and flannels complete with regimental crests and ties. Other acceptable orders of dress included tweed sports coats with parachute wing lapel pins. The officers were transported in unit transport, usually 1/4 tons with tac signs and drivers in uniform. (The local German farmers - many of whom were veterans - often used to meet them and escort them over the ground, showing them suitable areas for hides and even helping site support weapons.)


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## Occam (26 Apr 2012)

Not to mention the possibility that the people in the vehicle actually were civilians.  Lots of civilians have DND 404s and drive vehicles with DND plates.  DND Transport, Supply, CE, Telecom, etc. are all employers who have civilians who might have occasion to drive DND vehicles...


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## GB (27 Apr 2012)

Everybody thanks for the replies it is appreciated.



			
				CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Happens all the time. We routinely have troops in civilian clothing driving military pattern. If you live near a base, have you considered that there may be an exercise going on where CF members are playing the roles of insirgents/civilians for training purposes ?
> 
> Not everything that looks wrong actualy is.



No base near by closest would be Pet at 4+ hrs away but there are a few armouries so possibly reserves.  I didn't mean to imply (if that is how you took it) that it was wrong what was occuring.  On the contrary it was an honest question by my wife that I could not answer as I am not aware what the policies (even if there are any) on this are these days.  When I was in (even though it was a short time in the reserves 3+yrs.) the powers that be never allowed anyone in civi clothes in military vehicles.  I remember one summer going to Pet for an exercise and a reg force clerk that was on leave in Toronto asking if she could catch a ride with us back to base.  The RSM at that time OKd it if she wore a combat shirt while riding in the vehicle as she only had civis with her.  Didn't make sense to us at that time as when we stoped for food a bio break she was in civis and had to take the combat shirt off so she wouldn't be mixing uniform with civi wear  :.  Now I know that there was never an official rule or even a regulation that civi clothes was forbiden to be worn while in a vehicle it obviously was a unit thing, but never questioned it at that time.


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## Snaketnk (27 Apr 2012)

As long as the vehicle's being used for military purposes, you can wear whatever the hell you want... The duty you're performing will dictate what you wear.

In a few weeks my section will be taking DND plated vehicles on a multi-hour road trip... and we'll be wearing civilian attire.

There's thousands of possible, legitimate reasons to see someone hours away from a base in a DND plated vehicle.


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## Jarnhamar (28 Apr 2012)

It's not a crazy question to ask. I've always been told that only under the gravest circumstances will CF personal wear civies in greenfleet or bluefleet vehicles.  I've had to defend soldiers a few times for wearing civies in a bluefleet carryall van who were driving somewhere for a tasking that required them to wear civilian clothes throughout.

I've even heard a SNCO state that a military member will not be covered insurance wise if they get in an accident while in civies  :


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Apr 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> It's not a crazy question to ask. I've always been told that only under the gravest circumstances will CF personal wear civies in greenfleet or bluefleet vehicles.  I've had to defend soldiers a few times for wearing civies in a bluefleet carryall van who were driving somewhere for a tasking that required them to wear civilian clothes throughout.
> 
> I've even heard a SNCO state that a military member will not be covered insurance wise if they get in an accident while in civies  :



Everything you've stated, as being told, is a crock.

There is nothing wrong with civvies in any DND vehicle, if authorized..


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## Haggis (28 Apr 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I've even heard a SNCO state that a military member will not be covered insurance wise if they get in an accident while in civies  :



According to National Defence Act Section 60(1)c, a Reservist is subject to the Code of Service Discipline when:

"undergoing drill or training, *whether in uniform or not*, 
in uniform, 
on duty, 
called out under Part VI in aid of the civil power, 
called out on service, 
placed on active service, 
*in or on any vessel, vehicle  or aircraft of the Canadian Forces* or in or on any defence establishment or work for defence, 
serving with any unit or other element of the regular force or the special force, or 
present, whether *in uniform or not*, at any drill or training of a unit or other element of the Canadian Forces"

So, it would stand to reason that Regular Force members would be similary considered subject to the CSD while in civilian clothes and deemed on duty (i.e. driving or passengers in a DND vehicle).  Ergo, CF members in a DND vehicle in civvies are not contravening the Code of Service Discipline.


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## X Royal (28 Apr 2012)

Haggis said:
			
		

> So, it would stand to reason that Regular Force members would be similary considered subject to the CSD while in civilian clothes and deemed on duty (i.e. driving or passengers in a DND vehicle).  Ergo, CF members in a DND vehicle in civvies are not contravening the Code of Service Discipline.



This argument makes no sense.
No where did anyone state that if wearing civies that the members were not subject to the CSD.
By being subject to the CSD does in no way equate to not violating it.
I'm not arguing that there is a violation of the CSD by wearing civies in a military vehicle but the fact that being subject to the CSD does not mean no violation either.
It would depend on actual national, local standing or direct orders to determine if a breach CSD has happened.
I have no knowledge of any of these orders being present and lacking them would mean no violation of the CSD.


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## Disenchantedsailor (28 Apr 2012)

Further to X Royal's post, I can't think of a circumstance other than perhaps LWOP that a member of the Regular force would not be subject to the code of service discipline.


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## ModlrMike (28 Apr 2012)

If my personal experience has any bearing: the only one required to be in uniform was the driver (per advice from MSE). The remainder could have quite reasonable reasons for being in civilian dress (as could the driver under certain circumstances). But then what do I know? I only spent the last 5 years of my RegF career as a Sgt Maj.

Now I'll sit back and watch this thread spiral out of control. After 100 posts of  :deadhorse: and  :argument: perhaps the mods will lock it.


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## Haggis (28 Apr 2012)

Read my post again.

What I said was "Regular Force members would be similary considered subject to the CSD while in civilian clothes and deemed *on duty* (i.e. driving or passengers in a DND vehicle)".  NDA 60(1)a makes it plain that members of the Regular Force are deemed subject to the CSD at all times even when not deemed on duty.  I made that statement to (obviously unsuccessfully) delineate between the circumstance of a Reg F and P Res member in the same circumstance (driving or passengers on a CF vehicle).


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## marshall sl (28 Apr 2012)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> If my personal experience has any bearing: the only one required to be in uniform was the driver (per advice from MSE). The remainder could have quite reasonable reasons for being in civilian dress (as could the driver under certain circumstances). But then what do I know? I only spent the last 5 years of my RegF career as a Sgt Maj.
> 
> Now I'll sit back and watch this thread spiral out of control. After 100 posts of  :deadhorse: and  :argument: perhaps the mods will lock it.



For what it's worth when I was in Egypt  with UNEF2 only the drivers had to be in uniform the rest of us could wear civvies.


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## Blackadder1916 (28 Apr 2012)

marshall sl said:
			
		

> For what it's worth when I was in Egypt  with UNEF2 only the drivers had to be in uniform the rest of us could wear civvies.



For what it's worth when *I* was with UNEF2, I drove contingent vehicles on many occasions (for both duty and recreational purposes) in civilian clothing.


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## the 48th regulator (28 Apr 2012)

Locked, as I believe the OP got his answer.

Join us next time folks, when we hear about troops challenging the make work project of walking around the building picking up cigarette butts.

"If less people are smoking, why should I pick up those buts.  That is so old school!"  claims one member, who wished to remain anonymous...

dileas

tess


milnet.ca staff


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