# Ammo, water, food, fuel....now AA Batteries



## Armymedic (13 Apr 2009)

Interesting article I read discussing the importance of AA batteries to we modern soldiers. I know I carried 12 spare AA in various pockets and pouches on me during my last tour.

Electronic version found here:
http://www.thestar.com/SpecialSections/article/617490



> Allan Woods
> Ottawa Bureau
> 
> OTTAWA–The military has air power and firepower in Afghanistan, but providing Canadian soldiers with sufficient battery power is a multimillion-dollar concern for the country's war planners, according to an extensive defence department study.
> ...


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## MJP (13 Apr 2009)

While very true I found their math a bit suspect.  They based it on 2500 soldiers assuming all 2500 of those soldiers used AA batteries in those quantities.  We all know that the actual number of troops requiring those numbers of batteries is much lower.


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## Michael OLeary (13 Apr 2009)

On the other hand, I remember speaking with a member of 2RCR QM staff at a time when the battalion was consuming 2000+ AA batteries per month.  The kicker was that the battalion held, at the time, only one piece of TOE equipment that required them (a single Rad Tech's meter).  The rest were going into Walkmans, flashlights, etc. (Issued flashlights in the 80s took D cells.)


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## Armymedic (13 Apr 2009)

I am not sure where they got the figure of 40 AA per man for a 3 day mission. Must be a stat somewhere.

Just me though, I had 1 in NVG, at least 4 on the gun, 2 in each flashlight, 4 in the GPS, and thats roughly a dozen (13 to be exact). 

12 /day x 3 days = 36. 

So I guess the lower numbers isn't so out to lunch.


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## Old Sweat (14 Apr 2009)

The AA batteries are only part of the story. A million years ago I was a lieutenant in HQ 4 CIBG in Fort Henry, Germany. One of my tasks was oversight of the stock of "battle batteries," which included ones for manpack radios, C and D cells for flashlights and various devices including aiming post lights and illuminators for sights etc, special batteries for surveillance devices, missile launchers, etc, etc. The dollar value to maintain 30 days op stocks was astounding, especially as the shelf life of a lot of the items was not good at all.


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## BinRat55 (16 Apr 2009)

SFB said:
			
		

> I am not sure where they got the figure of 40 AA per man for a 3 day mission. Must be a stat somewhere.
> 
> Just me though, I had 1 in NVG, at least 4 on the gun, 2 in each flashlight, 4 in the GPS, and thats roughly a dozen (13 to be exact).
> 
> ...



Attempting to stay in my lane here, but do the batteries only last a day? Really? My own personal GPS is still using the same one I put in 6 months ago - and I geocache. I find that flashlights will last a bit shorter, but much longer than a day...


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## Michael OLeary (16 Apr 2009)

It's probably not as much a matter of how long they last (to point of failure) than it is replacing them to ensure they aren't going to fail when you need them.


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## BinRat55 (16 Apr 2009)

Seen. Never thought of that.


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## chris_log (17 Apr 2009)

SFB said:
			
		

> I am not sure where they got the figure of 40 AA per man for a 3 day mission. Must be a stat somewhere.
> 
> Just me though, I had 1 in NVG, at least 4 on the gun, 2 in each flashlight, 4 in the GPS, and thats roughly a dozen (13 to be exact).
> 
> ...



Any idea what the approx cost was for that kind of battery consumption in Afghanistan?


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## daftandbarmy (18 Apr 2009)

The RSO of my Bn called me up one day just prior to deploying to Norway for an AMF (L) winter deployment and announced proudly "I have just signed for 1 million AA batteries". And apparently we used them all during a 5 month period... astounding.


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## BKells (19 Apr 2009)

Part of battle procedure is to replace all your batteries. And don't forget the PRR, which no one mentioned here yet.. that's 2 AAs.


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## brihard (19 Apr 2009)

Yeah, I'd say of all the kit we had, PRRs probably ate up AAs the fastest. Though I seldom had cause to use my NVGs, and those eat them quickly too. A number of us had EOTech sights, but those barely sipped juice- I only changed them out a couple times on the tour, and that was just as a precaution.

Another kind that went quickly were the CR123 Lithium batteries that Surefires and other tactical lights use.


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## BinRat55 (20 Apr 2009)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> The RSO of my Bn called me up one day just prior to deploying to Norway for an AMF (L) winter deployment and announced proudly "I have just signed for 1 million AA batteries". And apparently we used them all during a 5 month period... astounding.



Not only is it astounding - it's absurd. Bull.


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## Michael OLeary (20 Apr 2009)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Not only is it astounding - it's absurd. Bull.



Hmmm.

1,000,000 batteries.
Battalion of 600 men (guessing, based on Cdn Bn strength in AMF(L) time period).
1,667 batteries per man.

5 months.
150 days (est at 30 days per month).

11.11 batteries per man per day. 

From the news article that started this thread:



> The average infantry soldier on a three-day mission in Kandahar carries up to 40 spare AA batteries.



From a later poster for usage example:



> 1 in NVG, at least 4 on the gun, 2 in each flashlight, 4 in the GPS, and thats roughly a dozen (13 to be exact).



13 in use, 40 spare over 3 days = about 13 per man per day.

That million battery story may not be inaccurate.

_Math and Logic - simply wonderful in application._


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## dapaterson (20 Apr 2009)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> _Math and Logic - simply wonderful in application._



Hey!  This is the internet!  We'll have none of that here!


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## Michael OLeary (20 Apr 2009)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Hey!  This is the internet!  We'll have none of that here!



Sorry, I keep forgetting that some of my lanes don't actually intersect with the multiverse of the intertubes.    8)


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## OldSolduer (20 Apr 2009)

I can see the AA battery problem. Flashlights, NVGs, etc all eat the power, and yes you should swap old for new especially for NVGs prior to nightfall. That Energizer Bunny must be tired..... :


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## GAP (20 Apr 2009)

I read an article quite awhile ago about the US forces running into a similar problem and there was some discussion regarding a larger/multioutlet belt carried  rechargeable lithium based battery to power such things as NVGs, etc. 

Probably as initially expensive to develop as using disposables, but....


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## dapaterson (20 Apr 2009)

The other consideration is that the military tends not to deploy to regions where there's a Wal-Mart or Costco handy - so if certain key supplies run out, you're in big trouble.  So, in log planning, you make certain assumptions and add a margin for error.  Thus, if the normal use of AA batteries for a Bn over five months would be 800K, you'd probably bring 1M as a margin for error.


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## brihard (20 Apr 2009)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Hmmm.
> 
> 1,000,000 batteries.
> Battalion of 600 men (guessing, based on Cdn Bn strength in AMF(L) time period).
> ...



And hell, let's face it- if someone needs new AAs for their iPod speakers and they can ADREP them, they're going to. AAs are one of those items particularly susceptible to unforcast usage.


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## George Wallace (20 Apr 2009)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The other consideration is that the military tends not to deploy to regions where there's a Wal-Mart or Costco handy - so if certain key supplies run out, you're in big trouble.  So, in log planning, you make certain assumptions and add a margin for error.  Thus, if the normal use of AA batteries for a Bn over five months would be 800K, you'd probably bring 1M as a margin for error.



Depends on the Bin Rats.  Some feel that their shelves must remain full, so they don't issue the items, for fear of having empty shelves and a tonne of paperwork.   >  Others can't keep their shelves stocked, for issueing the items.  Then there is the long supply chain and Bin Rats on a higher level not realizing what to priortize to the forward Bin Rats.  A bad apple anywhere along the chain causes problems for all.  A tough job, that requires just the right people at all levels.


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## daftandbarmy (21 Apr 2009)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Not only is it astounding - it's absurd. Bull.



Yes, of course it is as I have a long and sordid history for lying about stuff like that on this forum  :

However, I did neglect to explain that the majority of these batteries were used in the Clansman radio system (which is why the RSO had to sign for them) and, being the arctic, they ran down faster than in a temperate environment. Duracell must have made a fortune off of us.

Here's a link that decribes the PRC 349 (section radio) version and it's power source. We also used the 350(Pl level) and 320 (HF) radios:

Clansman PRC-349 ( BCC-349 )

This is the standard Hand-held radio of the British army, part of the "Clansman" series of radio equipment. Intended for platoon level personal communications under combat conditions, it may be carried on the shoulder, on the back, on the breast with its adjustable quick-release holster or in a belt worn holster. Features include frequency operation between 37 to 46.956 MHz with channels spaced 25 Khz apart. Protection from open or shorted antenna circuit and receiver overload. A battery save function that is in automatic operation during no-signal conditions. *Can be used with clansman 349 rechargeable batteries and charging unit or “Hollow cell” which lets you use civilian AA batteries. * 

http://www.emlra.org/C&S%20Barrow%20index/clansman_349.htm


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## BinRat55 (21 Apr 2009)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Yes, of course it is as I have a long and sordid history for lying about stuff like that on this forum  :
> 
> However, I did neglect to explain that the majority of these batteries were used in the Clansman radio system (which is why the RSO had to sign for them) and, being the arctic, they ran down faster than in a temperate environment. Duracell must have made a fortune off of us.
> 
> ...


Don't get me wrong - I wasn't calling bull on the ability to use 1M AA batteries in 5 months - as was pointed out earlier, the math works out, I just can't see procuring 1 million batteries through PWGSC. You can't just go out and buy that many batteries in one shot - approx 40,000 cases would actually have to be procured in about 8000 different shots - and even then it would be considered contract splitting. And about the weight - consider one case of 24 batteries weighs 1 pound. That would mean 20 tonnes of batteries flown to Norway?

If you say so, but logistically it's not adding up for me. Aquisition cards weigh much less...


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## Matt_Fisher (21 Apr 2009)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Don't get me wrong - I wasn't calling bull on the ability to use 1M AA batteries in 5 months - as was pointed out earlier, the math works out, I just can't see procuring 1 million batteries through PWGSC. You can't just go out and buy that many batteries in one shot - approx 40,000 cases would actually have to be procured in about 8000 different shots - and even then it would be considered contract splitting. And about the weight - consider one case of 24 batteries weighs 1 pound. That would mean 20 tonnes of batteries flown to Norway?
> 
> If you say so, but logistically it's not adding up for me. Aquisition cards weigh much less...



Daftandbarmy is referring to his time in the British Army, hence Canadian acquisition rules and regs are not applicable.


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## BinRat55 (21 Apr 2009)

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> Daftandbarmy is referring to his time in the British Army, hence Canadian acquisition rules and regs are not applicable.



As well with the devolution of military funding... that makes a little more sense... still, how does an organization dispose of so many batteries? Hasn't anyone considered alternative power sources, or even lithium or nickle cadmium batteries which would last longer? How about rechargables? 1 million batteries over a 5 month span is huge. Not that I disbelieve, but WOW - that's a lot of fricken double A's!!


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## Matt_Fisher (21 Apr 2009)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> As well with the devolution of military funding... that makes a little more sense... still, how does an organization dispose of so many batteries? Hasn't anyone considered alternative power sources, or even lithium or nickle cadmium batteries which would last longer? How about rechargables? 1 million batteries over a 5 month span is huge. Not that I disbelieve, but WOW - that's a lot of fricken double A's!!



Disposal was probably done through the regular disposal means, seeing as how it was the 1980's and everything that was deemed rubbish (from used ration packs...to batteries) were probably collected up and put into Norwegian landfills as per what the regulations of the day were.

There is alot of research being put into batteries with longer lifespans and lower weights, but until somebody invents a revolutionary new power storage device that doesn't use lead as its main component, then we're going to be stuck with batteries that are relatively heavy for their size.


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## X-mo-1979 (22 Apr 2009)

Something else for your discussion could be the quality of AA's being issued.They were not Energiser industrial etc.They were blue plastic with a negative and a positive. I used at least 7 EVERY day in my kit.My PRR (2),my MNVG (1),and my PLGR (4).On occasion I would have to change my EO tec and a few other pieces of equipment hat ran on AA's.I can see going through 15 a day on some days.

As well as part of my battle procedure I ensured they changed them all out prior to departure.As well once we were out for a few days I ensured everyday they were changed again.We were not thinking about the money or discussions of waste on army.ca,we were ensuring success and doing what NCM's do:ensuring the guys are ready to fight.


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## BinRat55 (22 Apr 2009)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> we were not thinking about the money or discussions of waste on army.ca,we were ensuring success and doing what NCM's do:ensuring the guys are ready to fight.



We here in supply are doing the same thing - just in a different way. I like to think of it as we take care of the stupid stuff so you guys can take care of the serious stuff - us and each other.


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## OldSolduer (22 Apr 2009)

I spoke to a veteran of TF 1-08 and he told me he'd use anywhere from 10-12 AA per day, and they were not Energizers or Duracells.


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## Michael OLeary (22 Apr 2009)

While replacing disposable batteries with rechargeable ones may seem like the PC green solution, it creates more problems than it solves.  The system of battery supply is a simple push system based on historical averages tracked in recent similar operations.  The utility of new batteries are dependent on no additional requirements.

For a rechargeable battery system to work on operations, the following have to be considered:

How many recharging units are required to maintain a dozen batteries per soldier per day? No doubt these could be custom-built automated units that you simply dump dead batteries in the top and charged ones come out the bottom.  But still, how many units, at what cost to obtain, maintain and to maintain backups units?

Who gets issued the rechargers, at whatever size or capacity they might be? What's the scale of issue, keeping in mind that they come with a workload requirement.  Will it be a supply system capability, or will smaller units get pushed ever downward until recharging becomes a section burden responsibility?

Where's the power come from?  Everywhere the rechargers go now needs guaranteed power to keep up with the rate at which the batteries are used.  

How many spare batteries have to be maintained for when any circumstances interrupt the charging rate.  Spare rechargeables for when the replacement rate falls below the recharging rate.  Spare "old batteries" for when the recharge system completely fails to meet demands?

What's the system to recover batteries for recharging.  It now complicates the push system of supply with a "return spring" requirement.  Will some bright bunny decide that the control measure will be a continuous one-for-one replacement system? 


Rechargables during training in Canada, sure, that could be made to work because failure of the system won't immediately endanger troops (although consideration still has to be given that it may not be the best solution in every training environment).  But I wouldn't want to be the guy trying to convince troops on operations that it's a good idea for them too.


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## George Wallace (22 Apr 2009)

Solar panels for the LAVs to trickle charge batteries.   Just kidding;........... although there already is one, but it would not be advisable to add more to its current function.


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## OldSolduer (22 Apr 2009)

But its Earth Day guys!! COme one guys!!

Maybe we can engage Liz May and her eager band of  Green Freaks to:
A. Come up with a solution (however unviable) to the AA battery problem;
B. Negotiate with the Taliban to end the Afghanistan war; and
C. Find a cure for the common cold.
Joking!


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## Matt_Fisher (22 Apr 2009)

Well, seeing as how Old Solduer did make mention that it is Earth Day, I will throw this out there:

We should consider alternative energy means such as solar panels and wind turbines for places like KAF and FOBs, where applicable so as to reduce the consumption rates of diesel/JP-8 for generators and the logistical strain which that puts on the supply train.


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## PuckChaser (22 Apr 2009)

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> Well, seeing as how Old Solduer did make mention that it is Earth Day, I will throw this out there:
> 
> We should consider alternative energy means such as solar panels and wind turbines for places like KAF and FOBs where applicable so as to reduce the consumption rates of diesel/JP-8 for generators and the logistical strain which that puts on the supply train.



AStan would be an excellent place to use solar technology.... that being said, the Army can't even figure out how to get comfortable boots or useable tacvests out to troops, the procurement cycle on Solar cells would probably finish by the time we've figured out nuclear fusion.


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## GDawg (22 Apr 2009)

How about a solar powered manpack? Hey! Tell that Jimmy to get out of the shade!


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## GAP (22 Apr 2009)

GDawg said:
			
		

> How about a solar powered manpack? Hey! Tell that Jimmy to get out of the shade!



Put Solar Cells on the helmet for the NVG's.....


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## Franko (22 Apr 2009)

GAP said:
			
		

> Put Solar Cells on the helmet for the NVG's.....



Like we don't already have enough stuff to wear on our heads!

Regards


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## Armymedic (22 Apr 2009)

GAP said:
			
		

> Put Solar Cells on the helmet for the NVG's.....



It was tried, but for some reason they did not work.

Perhaps there was not enough cells, maybe they should attempt a backpack size panel.


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## daftandbarmy (23 Apr 2009)

They've already got backpack panels on general issue to iPod wearing teenagers... 

The Voltaic solar bags are solar chargers designed to charge virtually all handheld electronics.
Powerful Solar Panels: Embedded in the outside of these solar chargers are lightweight, tough, waterproof solar panels. The new Generator produces up to 15 watts, powerful enough to fully charge a typical laptop from a day of direct sunlight. No other solar bag can do this! The smaller bags produce 4 watts of power so 1 hour in direct sun will power over 3 hours of iPod play time or 1.5 hours of cell phone talk time.

Battery Included: All Voltaic bags come with a custom battery pack which stores any surplus power generated, so it is available when you need it - not just when the sun is up. The battery packs can also be charged using the included AC travel charger or car charger, making them just as useful on the grid as off.

Easy Connection to Devices: All bags include standard adaptors for common cell phones and other handheld devices. The Generator also includes common laptop adaptors. Even without an adaptor, you can charge most devices with a standard car charger or USB charger.

http://www.voltaicsystems.com/


Remember: Earth day falls on the anniversary of the first use of poison gas in war, by the Germans against the Canadians and French at the 2nd Battle of Ypres in 1915. Wear a gas mask and donate ironically to Geen Peace.  ;D


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