# Posting Policy-Restricted (IR) & Prohibited moves [MERGED]



## maniac779 (14 Mar 2008)

Is there anyone out there who would consider themselves a SME or well acquainted with _non-IRP_ move? (a move handled through the OR, not Royal Lepage)


----------



## dapaterson (14 Mar 2008)

To my knowledge, if you're moving and the Crown is paying for it, it will go through Royal Lepage.  I'm willing to be proven wrong, though...


----------



## BinRat55 (14 Mar 2008)

I would consider myself well versed in IRP policy, but by no means a SME.  Does your question fall within 2.03:

The CF IRP applies on all postings, whenever members are authorized to move (D) HG&E from one place of duty to another, and only when the new principal residence is a minimum distance of 40 kilometers (by the shortest usual public route) closer to the new workplace.

If so, I just assisted someone with an "internal posting" (which ended up being handled through Royal LePage anyway...)

Shoot the puck...


----------



## BinRat55 (14 Mar 2008)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> To my knowledge, if you're moving and the Crown is paying for it, it will go through Royal Lepage.  I'm willing to be proven wrong, though...



I thought that too... although if you read my above post (exerpt APS 2006 Handbook), the way I read it is that any move UNDER 40 Km will not be looked at by IRP Policy... I could be wrong too... ???


----------



## maniac779 (14 Mar 2008)

I am asking with regard to a move that is not handled through IRP, so in other words, has no involvement with Royal Lepage...

More specifically, I am refering to moves that are handled under CBI Chapter 209 Section 8. (Where "to whom section 9 -  _Integrated Relocation Pilot Program _ does not apply")

The move not to a different location in the local area.


----------



## BinRat55 (14 Mar 2008)

Maniac779 - i've scanned all sections of the CBI.  Can you be a little bit more specific with your question - in other words, what IS your question?


----------



## Yrys (14 Mar 2008)

There is P.M., you know, if you don't want to be too specific in public   ...


Add : "  "


----------



## dapaterson (14 Mar 2008)

My understanding is that CBI 209 Section 8 is present for certain members with vested rights dating back to before the implementation of IRP.  If you are relocated at crown expense it will be under the IRP.

CF IRP 07/08 2.03 reads, in part:



> The CF IRP applies on all postings, whenever members are authorized to move (D) HG&E from one place of duty to another, and only when the new principal residence is a minimum distance of 40 kilometers (by the shortest usual public route) closer to the new workplace.
> The CF IRP also applies to relocations either for release purposes from outside of Canada and isolated units or to the Intended Place of Residence.
> The following types of moves are governed by the CF IRP, but with specific changes outlined in addenda that modify the main document:
> • Moves to and from Outside Canada (see addenda 1 & 2);
> ...


----------



## maniac779 (14 Mar 2008)

Disclaimer: Before anyone says “go talk to your OR”, I am not taking anything said here as gospel with regard to my specific situation. Regard this only as a question out of curiosity. In fact, we’ll even pretend like this is a completely hypothetical situation and I am just asking for opinions from occupations that I am aware know more about this than I do.

Lets just say, hypothetically, that I got posted from Thunder Bay to Moose Jaw, with the pertinent details of the message as follows.

4A. MOVE OF DF & E RESTRICTED IAW CFAO 209-28 PARA 37. CERT IAW FAA 32.

B. UPON RECEIPT OF THIS POSTING INSTRUCTION,YOU ARE DIRECTED TO CONTACT YOUR WING ORDERLY ROOM OR AREA SUPPORT UNIT WHO WILL INITIATE YOUR FILE AS A NON CANADIAN FORCES INTEGRATED RELOCATION PROGRAM MOVE (NON CFRIP MOVE).

Upon receipt of the message, I request an HHT, and receive written authorization to conduct one from both the loosing and gaining unit CO’s.

I conduct the HHT and lucky for me, I find a house. I put out an offer, which gets accepted and I start the process. I pay to retain the lawyer and for the home inspection while on the ground.

I return from my HHT, settle the claim for my trip and keep the receipts for the costs already incurred to obtain a replacement residence.

A few days later, the restriction on the move of F&E gets lifted. I call movements and get my move scheduled.

With some special relocation leave taken on the loosing end, my F&E gets packed, moved and I get in my car and drive to Moose Jaw.

On arrival, I visit the OR to finalize my travel claim and raise my move claim. I have all the required documentation. (Receipts, etc.)

I sit down with the clerk with the intention of claiming the following:

- Rent paid for April 2008 (I vacated rented accommodations in Thunder Bay, and the last month’s rent was kept by my landlord as I gave them less than 60 days notice to move)
- All Legal Fees
- Home inspection fee carried out on my HHT
- Mortgage Default Insurance Premium paid in lump sum through lawyer (CMHC fee)

I later have the intention of visiting the OR again with appropriate documentation later to claim the following:

- Utility connection fees (power, heat, cable, water)
- Any automobile/license transfer fees

My question is as follows:

Is the story I told how it goes on Non IRP moves IAW with the reference provided? Is there anything major (entitlements) in the above story that wouldn’t play out that way? 

I have read the reference and have interpreted my way, which I think is pretty accurate considering I can read and understand English. However, this is out of my lane. I am not a clerk. I am not going to think I can interpret policy better than someone who has it in their job description. I need help.

Opinions are appreciated.

Thanks very much.


----------



## PO2FinClk (14 Mar 2008)

FYI, there are some which IRP still will not move despite initiatives where it had been anticipated they would. For instances unless someone has attained Career Status (QL3) they will not move them until such a time as they do. A few exceptions like those but few and far between.

Don't ask me to confirm these details above as without the file in front of me, it is far to easy to misinterpret any small detail which would lead to a long and confusing post about the same things.

Entitlements on such moves:
Rent/Lease Liability
Rent in Advance of Move
Movement Grant
HHT
Realestate & Legal Fees


----------



## BinRat55 (14 Mar 2008)

maniac779 said:
			
		

> B. UPON RECEIPT OF THIS POSTING INSTRUCTION,YOU ARE DIRECTED TO CONTACT YOUR WING ORDERLY ROOM OR AREA SUPPORT UNIT WHO WILL INITIATE YOUR FILE AS A NON CANADIAN FORCES INTEGRATED RELOCATION PROGRAM MOVE (NON CFRIP MOVE).



Wow - that's a good one.  I can honestly say that i've never seen that.  My first posting was in 1990 (pre-IRP) and from what I remember it was quite similar (I never bought a house though).  The upside to your situation is anything DND does NOT cover, Revenue Canada may.  I'm interested to know how it goes though...


----------



## George Wallace (14 Mar 2008)

There must be more to this than has been published here.  You must have made some sort of move or action that was out of the ordinary or not "sanctioned" to get into this predicament.

Were you a Reservist who made a Move on your own, not authorized by the CF to your current location before doing a CT?

Is your current location the listed location of your F&E?

Have you been allowed one move already, and are now trying to make a second move?

Are you in a "No Cost Posting" situation?

Are you on a "Imposed Restriction" Posting?

I am just trying to figure out what extreme twist of fate has put you in this predicament.


----------



## maniac779 (14 Mar 2008)

Wow, I knew that Non-CFIRP moves were out of the ordinary, but I didn't realize just how obscure they were until reading the posts here!

I am a RegF Pilot awaiting training. I have been posted to Moose Jaw for BFT. I was moved at public expense to my current location. That move was under the same provisions listed above. (Almost word for word verbatim on my last posting messaged with the exception of the word "restricted")

From what I understand, these are the types of moves that Pilots make until we are winged, while IRP moves are reserved for people who are trained in their occupation. Non-IRP moves are handled entirely through the orderly room and the majority of the claim is made out on a CF52 with the help of your friendly neighborhood clerk. They, as a result of their obscurity, also cause confusion from time to time in the OR and as a result, I am told there is a DCBA inquiry being made regarding my entitlements. I am at this point looking to see if anyone has any knowledge in the mean time.

While I did not buy a house at my current location, I am in the process of purchasing one in Moose Jaw, as I will belong to Moose Jaw until my first operational tour, again, from what I understand.

The heart of my question basically revolves around some funny wording in the regulation under which I am fairly confident is governing I am being moved, which is: 

CBI Chapter 209 Section 8; Relocation Expenses. (http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/cbi/includes/cbi_coverpage_e.asp?sidesection=6&docid=66)

The phrase in question is bold:

"209.96(5) (Non-reimbursable fees) Expenses such as mortgage finder’s fees, mortgage insurance fees *other than mortgage default insurance required to obtain a mortgage and that are reimbursable under subparagraph (2)(c)*, adjustments on closing such as utilities or municipal taxes or survey costs other than those referred to in subparagraph (2)(c), which are not essential in establishing clear title to the principal residence sold or the replacement residence purchased, are not reimbursable under this instruction."

I read that as, "other than the fees listed here which are not reimbursable, Mortgage Default Insurance (otherwise known as CMHC fees) ARE reimbursable under para (2)(c)"

I however do not interpret rules like this on a regular basis and am wondering if I am right out to lunch.

Comments welcome.


----------



## exgunnertdo (15 Mar 2008)

We had a non-IRP move in 2006.  Had not reached career status.  What we learned was that the guiding policy (Treasury Board) is the same for IRP/non-IRP.  There are differences in the way they are administered, but shouldn't result in huge differences in what you get.  The Treasury Board relocation policy can be helpful - http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pubs_pol/hrpubs/TBM_113/irp_e.asp

If your question is regarding CMHC fees - I have a fair bit of personal experience with that one.

CMHC fees will not be re-imbursed if it's your first house, or if you voluntarily became a renter after being an owner, then want to buy again.

CMHC fees are re-imbursed if you owned a house with a portable mortgage, were forced to sell that house due to being moved by the CF, and *not permitted to purchase* at your new location (ie short posting or overseas posting).  On your next posting, you would then be re-imbursed CMHC fees.

My lesson - if you are told at any point that you may not purchase a house (by IRP or the OR, depending) get it in writing, so you can prove on your next move that you weren't allowed to buy.  Learned the hard way - but I won in the end, took almost a year of fighting!


----------



## maniac779 (15 Mar 2008)

Thanks for the response... PM inbound

Exgunner,

Are we talking about the same CMHC fee? I am referring to mortgage default insurance. I don't know much about buying a house, but I don't understand the logic in denying the reimbursement of the MDI given the circumstances you laid out.


----------



## exgunnertdo (17 Mar 2008)

CMHC fees = Mortgage Default Insurance (MDI)

The principle with the reimbursing of MDI is that the CF does not pay fees associated with purchasing a house, per se.  They reimburse fees associated with relocation.  MDI is a reality of life for most people in Canada.  The only way you get out of paying for MDI when you buy a house is having 25% down, which most people do not have.  The CF does not help you buy your first house.  When you buy your first house, you pay the MDI like every other Canadian, then when you move, you port your mortgage to your new house, and you don't have to pay MDI again, it was already paid on that mortage.  The CF reimburses it when you have to pay it again, cause they made you break your mortgage on the last move.

Edited to add:  I'm referring to reimbursement of MDI from Core funding for an IRP move.  To bring it back to the original topic, the main difference in IRP/non-IRP is the Custom and Personalized funding models.  What's funded in Core for IRP should be funded in a non-IRP move.  For an IRP move, there are also circumstances where you can get MDI re-imbursed from Custom or Personalized, but I don't remember the details.


----------



## maniac779 (17 Mar 2008)

I did check the link you provided and I was confused about the circumstances surrounding the potential reimbursement of personalized and customized items under a non-IRP move.

Since you seem to be a beacon of knowledge on this, is it fair to say that generally speaking, only the core funding is provided on a non-IRP move?

Thanks.


----------



## PO2FinClk (17 Mar 2008)

exgunnertdo said:
			
		

> The only way you get out of paying for MDI when you buy a house is having 25% down, which most people do not have.


As of 2007, amount for CMHC is now 20% to be precise.


----------



## exgunnertdo (17 Mar 2008)

maniac779 said:
			
		

> is it fair to say that generally speaking, only the core funding is provided on a non-IRP move?



That's right.  Example - when we did our non-IRP move, we took the kids on the HHT.  For an IRP move, taking the kids on the HHT is out of custom.  If we had left them at home, we could have claimed the extra child care expenses (which would be core), but since we took them, we paid that out of our pocket (they rode in the van, and stayed in the same hotel room with us, so we were only out the meals, really). 

The other main difference is - On IRP, in your personalized package you get a "movement grant" of $650 which is to cover a whole bunch of stuff that isn't specifically claimable.  For a non-IRP move, some of those expenses are supposed to be claimable.


----------



## PO2FinClk (17 Mar 2008)

exgunnertdo said:
			
		

> The other main difference is - On IRP, in your personalized package you get a "movement grant" of $650 which is to cover a whole bunch of stuff that isn't specifically claimable.  For a non-IRP move, some of those expenses are supposed to be claimable.


Movement Grant's also exist in non-IRP moves, CBI 209.85 refers:


> 209.85(2) (Eligibility) An officer or non-commissioned member who is moved other than locally is entitled to
> (a) a movement grant of $845, where the member moves furniture or effects, or both, weighing 907 kilograms or more to a new place of duty or to another authorized place under CBI 209.84 - Shipment of Furniture and Effects, 209.9941 - Shipment of Replacement Furniture and Effects, 209.9942 - Movement of Dependants, Furniture and Effects – Personnel Reinstated – Regular Force or 209.90 - Movement of Dependants, Furniture and Effects to Other Than the Place of Duty of the Officer or Non-commissioned Member;
> (b) a movement grant of $260, where the member moves furniture or effects, or both, weighing less than 907 kilograms to a new place of duty or to another authorized place under an instruction listed in subparagraph (a);
> (c) a movement grant of $260, where the member is prohibited from moving furniture or effects, or both, to a new place of duty or to another authorized place and stores either furniture or effects, or both, regardless of weight under CBI 209.84; or
> ...


----------



## corporall (20 Jan 2009)

This has probably come up before, but I can't seem to find any info on it.

I'm posted to Kingston APS 2009 and I will be heading there on IR.

Any ideas of what the exact entitlements are?

And does anyone know of any decent places to rent?  I'm probably looking for a motel or something.  I will probably be deploying at some point so I don't want to lock into a year long lease unless the military pays out extra to break the lease.

Any info would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (20 Jan 2009)

Try these:

Search Results for IR POSTING

This thread entitled IR POSTINGS


----------



## Comp PE (20 Jan 2009)

You are entitled to the cost of rent and utilities, not sure of the exact amount for Kingston, you,re clerks will have a list. Your heat, hydro, basic cable, internet and phone will all be covered under your entitlements. If you so wish you can also claim your cellphone, if you are not getting a landline phone, up to about $33-$35 a month. You also get separation allowance and an allowance for meals, but again check with your clerks they can give the most up to date info.

     I had to come to Kingston briefly on IR last summer, now my family is hear, and would not recommend a month to month rent. There are two or three hotels that offer weekly rates, about $450, which exceeds your monthly entitlement for living expenses. The few month to month rent accommodations that are available are in fairly rough shape and not in the best neighbourhoods. From experience I would recommend a year lease as you will find much better accommodations as well as the possibility of bundling your utilities in with your rent which makes the claim process easier. Hope some of that helps.


----------



## PMedMoe (20 Jan 2009)

Comp PE said:
			
		

> Your basic cable, internet and phone will all be covered under your entitlements. If you so wish you can also claim your cellphone, if you are not getting a landline phone, up to about $33-$35 a month.



If your phone, cable and internet is NOT covered in your monthly rent, you CANNOT claim it, it is to be paid out of your separation allowance.  You CAN claim a one-time hook-up fee.  This just changed not too long ago (earlier this year).  I know because I had an ongoing "discussion" via email with my IR clerk.   ;D

Edit to add:  Ensure your career manager is aware that you intend to go IR as it must be requested and noted on your posting message.

Here is the DCBA Aide Memoire.  TR/IR entitlements start on page 26.



> Members on TR shall receive a one-time reimbursement for one basic phone (cellular or land line), basic TV cable, and basic dial up or cable Internet hook ups as applicable. The monthly recurring charges for these services shall be the responsibility of the member as it is being compensated at sub paragraphs 4.1b, 4.2c, 4.3c, and 4.4c above.



The links in the Aide only work from a DWAN computer.


----------



## BH (31 Mar 2009)

First time poster here.

I'm also planning on going IR to Kingston this summer. I hear the SQ are all full though. Can anyone confirm or deny this for me?

Thanks.


----------



## corporall (31 Mar 2009)

In 2008 there was a memo issued from Kingston stating that personnel posted to Kingston on IR will no longer be allowed to stay in Single Quarters.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (31 Mar 2009)

I know there is at least one PMQ opening up this summer ......


----------



## AmmoTech90 (31 Mar 2009)

DIN search for Kingston Imposed Restriction brings up this page (DIN only):

http://kingston.mil.ca/g1/mpss/posted_in/rental_links.asp


----------



## BH (14 Apr 2009)

Thank you to all for the replies! Unfortunately the link was a dead one but in CFB Kingston BSO 19.00, it states: IMPOSED RESTRICTED PERSONNEL
13.	Members on IR,  that are posted to CFB/ASU Kingston are required to secure non-public accommodation and seek reimbursement.  

Hopefully this will help others seeking the same info.


----------



## Sub_Guy (7 Jan 2010)

I am well aware of the rules when a service member decides to move to the new location alone.   What I want to know is this, what happens when one member of a service couple decides to take the F&E to the new location while leaving the other member at the old location.   Would the member who is left behind be entitled to IR benefits?

I have read through the orders and I can't seem to find anything written about the subject anywhere.


----------



## Jammer (7 Jan 2010)

I believe it's called a "reverse IR". One of my friends is currently in this situation. However you would be best served by contacting your respective career shops to get the true low-down.


----------



## Sub_Guy (7 Jan 2010)

Yeah I found the ref which indicates the entitlement.   I am just running into some issues with a certain organization down in CFB Esquimalt.


----------



## opcougar (23 Jan 2010)

Just wondering where they put people up when ones goes on IR in Ottawa, how decent is the place and what other options are available to a person before taking the plunge to move family down lock stock and barrel?

Cheers


----------



## PMedMoe (23 Jan 2010)

You rent your own place.  Current entitlement right now is $1600 for rent and $100 for parking (if required).  You can rent furnished (which is best) or rent the furniture but it cannot be a rent-to-own agreement.  Furniture rental and apartment rental combined cannot exceed the entitlement.

As far as other options, either you go IR or you move your family.  That's all the options.


----------



## opcougar (23 Jan 2010)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> You rent your own place.  Current entitlement right now is $1600 for rent and $100 for parking (if required).  You can rent furnished (which is best) or rent the furniture but it cannot be a rent-to-own agreement.  Furniture rental and apartment rental combined cannot exceed the entitlement.
> 
> As far as other options, either you go IR or you move your family.  That's all the options.



Thanks PMM. So what is this hotel I keep hearing about that is available to people on IR? Also if I was working at the startop building or somewhere like Leitrim, where would be a good family neighbourhood to buy a house in that is close to parks, shops, trails, good schools, transport and easy access to downtown?

My budget is between 300-380k for a detached house with backyard. I don't want Orleans, russell or greely

thx


----------



## PMedMoe (23 Jan 2010)

Probably the Executive Suites hotel.  You can book for long term stays.

Do your own real estate research, I am on IR so I have no idea what the neighborhoods are like and I pretty much drive everywhere or take a taxi.

MLS


----------



## opcougar (23 Jan 2010)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Probably the Executive Suites hotel.  You can book for long term stays.
> 
> Do your own real estate research, I am on IR so I have no idea what the neighborhoods are like and I pretty much drive everywhere or take a taxi.
> 
> ...


----------



## PMedMoe (23 Jan 2010)

Do a Google search for furnished apartments.  I live near South Keys and I'm in my second year of IR.


----------



## Mulan (25 Jan 2010)

opcougar ,
If you are looking for help finding a house in Ottawa, you may want to try the Royal Lepage Relocation Services. 
Source: CFSU(Ottawa) What's New Page: http://www.cfsuo.forces.gc.ca/wn-qdn-eng.asp#w20080326

The instructions given are as follows:

Royal Lepage Relocation Services - Register on line
Did you know that you can start the relocation process with Royal Lepage Relocation Services as soon as you receive your posting message?
4 EASY STEPS TO REGISTER ON LINE!
Go to: https://www.relodialogue.com/employee/
transferee/IRP/registerEN.aspx
Complete the identification page and submit.
When you are done, you will receive an email indicating the documents you need to provide (by fax or in person).
24 to 48 hrs after reception of your documents, we will give you the name of your consultant and book your first consultation.


Hope that helps. 
all the best to you and your family in the move ahead.


----------



## Pusser (26 Jan 2010)

Contact the Orderly Room at CFSU(O) (613-996-1044 or mailto:+CFSU Ottawa Reception@CFSUO Admin Svcs@Ottawa-Hull).  They have a list of local apartment buildings that rent at the appropriate rates.  You may have to ask for the IR Desk.  When I was on IR, I stayed at the Embassy Tower at Rideau and Chapel Sts.  However, that's right downtown, so not very convenient to Leitrim or Startop.  Sussex House is also downtown and is a popular IR place.

There are PMQs in Ottawa at the Uplands site, which is quite convenient to Leitrim and not to bad for getting to Startop.  I don't know about parking at Startop.  The South Ottawa (Hunt Club, south Keys, etc) area is a good place to buy and there are several new developments going up as we speak.  The advantage of this area is that it is well served by public transit and convenient to just about everything.  The bus ride downtown is only about 30 minutes.  Everytime I drive to Orleans (which is infrequent) I thank my lucky stars I didn't buy there.  The traffic is horrendous and the buses are always packed at rush hour.  I almost always get a seat on my bus to South Ottawa.


----------



## PMedMoe (26 Jan 2010)

No offense to the staff at CFSU(O) but good luck getting a reply from them.  When I was posted, the clerk forwarded my email requesting a list of places to rent to another clerk and I never received a reply.  It was a good thing I already knew people here on IR.


----------



## Pusser (26 Jan 2010)

I'd be curious as to why the clerk who received it did not forward it on to you.  Unfortunately, things like that do happen, but I can honestly say that my experience with Orderly Room in Ottawa has always been pretty positive (although it bugs the crap out of me why I can't wear jeans to be served there, even if I'm on leave, but the civilian clerk serving me can).  Perhaps the moral of the story is to call and talk to a person.


----------



## PMedMoe (26 Jan 2010)

I don't know what it is about the OR in Ottawa.  I think going in person is your best bet, albeit it's rather inconvenient from where I work.  Phoning and emailing (with read receipt) seems to be hit or miss.


----------



## J.J (26 Jan 2010)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> You rent your own place.  Current entitlement right now is $1600 for rent and $100 for parking (if required).  You can rent furnished (which is best) or rent the furniture but it cannot be a rent-to-own agreement.  Furniture rental and apartment rental combined cannot exceed the entitlement.
> 
> As far as other options, either you go IR or you move your family.  That's all the options.



CBSA gives us $2500 for rent and $195 for parking, plus after 31 days you get %75 of your travel entitlements, meals and incidentals, which gives you an additional $62/day. 
Sometimes it is good to a civil servant!  ;D

What I found when I was there, is the apartment/hotel will ask you where you work and then whatever your maximum amount is, that will be the rent.

For the same place...

For DND the rent would be $1600 + $100 for parking.

For CBSA, it would be $2500 + $195 parking.

Like Pmed suggested, ask someone who is there and I would suggest don't sign a long term lease. Stay there for a month and see if you like it and then explore the city to find the right neighbourhood for you & your family....If possible


----------



## birdgunnnersrule (26 Jan 2010)

Pusser said:
			
		

> There are PMQs in Ottawa at the Uplands site, which is quite convenient to Leitrim and not to bad for getting to Startop.  I don't know about parking at Startop



The parking at Startop is good if you happen to qualify for a pass next to the building. Like everywhere in Ottawa it is based on the points system of time in, where you live, car pooling, and if you are near public transit.  There is an additional parking lot out back that is run privately.  You can pay a monthly flat rate or pay a daily rate of $6.  They kind of have a monopoly and you are at their mercy as there is not much parking around.  

I hope this helps.


----------



## opcougar (1 Feb 2010)

just wondering if any of you knowledgeable folks in Ottawa, can please tell me from the list below, which hotel will be the best place for me to stay at for a few months while I sell my house, if I need to get to STARTOP on startop and innes road


----------



## PMedMoe (1 Feb 2010)

I think you forgot the list of hotels.


----------



## opcougar (1 Feb 2010)

Sorry about that, here they are. How long is someone allowed to stay at these kind of hotels on IR? I can't seem to find an apartment, and just think hotel is the way to go for now

\\ best western victoria park suites, 377 o connor str
\\ novotel ottawa, 33 nicholas street
\\ radisson hotel ottawa, parliament hill
\\ delta ottawa hotel and suites, 361 queen str
\\ holiday inn hotel and suites downtown ottawa, 111 cooper str
\\ courtyard by marriot ottawa, 350 dalhousie str
\\ residence inn by marriot ottawa, 161 laurier ave west
\\ Bostonian executive suites, 341 maclaren str


----------



## Occam (1 Feb 2010)

I can't give you any info about IR, but we did stay at the Residence Inn on our HHT, and it was okay, but nothing spectacular.  We stayed at the Minto Suites during our actual move for a little over two weeks, and it was really nice.  All of those hotels are downtown, and I assume you're taking the bus to Startop.  I've heard good things about the Business Inn & Suites too, although it's not on your list.

Where did you get the list of hotels?  The PWGSC 2010 Accommodation and Car Rental Directory?


----------



## PMedMoe (1 Feb 2010)

All of those hotels are pretty much downtown and not really near Star Top and Innes Rd.  You are allowed to stay as long as your IR is authorized.  When you call to inquire about a place, explain you are on IR and how many months you want the place for.  Some places will rent on a month-by-month basis.  Make sure you get a 30-day release as well (meaning you can terminate the rental with 30 days notice).  Do you even have a posting message yet?  Don't forget that you have to request IR from your CM.

Here's a list of some rental agencies that may have properties closer to Star Top.

http://www.ottawarentalhouses.com/

http://ottawa.sublet.com/

http://www.rentboard.ca/rentals/index.aspx?locid=4617

http://www.viewit.ca/vwListings.aspx?cs=1

http://www.ottawaliving.ca/rentals.php?view=new_rentals

You really ought to try using Google yourself.


----------



## opcougar (1 Feb 2010)

Occam said:
			
		

> I can't give you any info about IR, but we did stay at the Residence Inn on our HHT, and it was okay, but nothing spectacular.  We stayed at the Minto Suites during our actual move for a little over two weeks, and it was really nice.  All of those hotels are downtown, and I assume you're taking the bus to Startop.  I've heard good things about the Business Inn & Suites too, although it's not on your list.
> 
> Where did you get the list of hotels?  The PWGSC 2010 Accommodation and Car Rental Directory?



Yes....that is where I got it from, through MPSS.


----------



## opcougar (1 Feb 2010)

Yes I do have a posting message in hand, and it shows a fin code for IR. Pmedmoe don't feel you need to contribute to the thread, I am asking for first hand knowledge/experience here from people that have done the move, if it's too much to ask, just ignore the thread.

It's that easy really

Thx




			
				PMedMoe said:
			
		

> All of those hotels are pretty much downtown and not really near Star Top and Innes Rd.  You are allowed to stay as long as your IR is authorized.  When you call to inquire about a place, explain you are on IR and how many months you want the place for.  Some places will rent on a month-by-month basis.  Make sure you get a 30-day release as well (meaning you can terminate the rental with 30 days notice).  Do you even have a posting message yet?  Don't forget that you have to request IR from your CM.
> 
> Here's a list of some rental agencies that may have properties closer to Star Top.
> 
> ...


----------



## Occam (1 Feb 2010)

opcougar said:
			
		

> Yes....that is where I got it from, through MPSS.



MPSS??

You can view the directory yourself here - http://rehelv-acrd.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/rechercher-search-eng.aspx

Make sure you select Ottawa (downtown) or you'll get wonky results.  Also make sure you're getting a suite w/kitchen or you'll also get wonky results.

For what it's worth, I think PMedMoe is actually on IR here in Ottawa, so you might want to be a little friendlier with her as I'm sure she probably knows a fair bit about the IR situation here.


----------



## opcougar (1 Feb 2010)

I really appreciate that and know Pmed is on IR, but she just keeps coming back saying "use google". Google does not give me first hand experience of people, which is what am looking for here.

Pmedmoe....I don't mean to come across as cocky, it's just that I need to move ASAP





			
				Occam said:
			
		

> MPSS??
> 
> You can view the directory yourself here - http://rehelv-acrd.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/rechercher-search-eng.aspx
> 
> ...


----------



## PMedMoe (1 Feb 2010)

Actually, I _am_ on IR here in Ottawa and I had to do everything myself since the support unit was no help at all.  This is why I am _attempting_ to help you, but really, you _could_ be Googling all this stuff yourself and then ask questions as you did with the hotel list.  No one is really going to able to give you "first hand" info on every place in Ottawa.  You're going to have to do a lot of the footwork yourself.  You do know you're entitled to an HHT, right?


----------



## opcougar (1 Feb 2010)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Actually, I _am_ on IR here in Ottawa and I had to do everything myself since the support unit was no help at all.  This is why I am _attempting_ to help you, but really, you _could_ be Googling all this stuff yourself and then ask questions as you did with the hotel list.  No one is really going to able to give you "first hand" info on every place in Ottawa.  You're going to have to do a lot of the footwork yourself.  You do know you're entitled to an HHT, right?



Yes I know, but am saving that for when my house in Toronto sells in the spring/summer, then the wife and kids can use the HHT to find a house to buy in Ottawa


----------



## Pusser (8 Feb 2010)

For the record, I did exactly what opcougar is planning to do - came first on IR until kids finished school, then moved in the summer.  I found a place by phoning around using the list from the CFSU(O) IR desk.  I then made all the arrangements via e-mail/fax and secured the place sight unseen.  Since it was only for three months, I was prepared to accept the risk of ending up in a dive (I didn't).  I spent my weekends on IR checking out the housing market and when I felt I had a good short list and the market was right, I called my wife and had her come on the HHT.  I was working in the same basic timeframe (arrived in Ottawa in late March - HHT end of April -moved in early July).

You won't be able to stay in a hotel for any length of time.  You are only allowed seven days to find a place with cooking facilities.  After that, your meal allowance goes WAY down.  You need to find a furnished apartment as soon as possible.  Most of them seem to be downtown, but the bus service in Ottawa is not horrific (other than surly drivers who crank up the heat when everybody is wearing winter coats and who think they're at LeMans).

I stayed at the Horizon Towers (http://www.horizontowers.ca/).  There is a minimum three month lease period, but that worked out OK for me.  They charge the CF rate for the room and for parking.  It's conveniently located downtown if you're interested in entertaining yourself.  The best part I found was that the rent included cable and telephone.  Other places I looked at charged the CF rate, but cable and telephone were extra.  It also has a pool.

Good luck


----------



## PMedMoe (8 Feb 2010)

Just to give you a heads up, it seems they are doing a "fact finding" search on personnel on IR here in Ottawa.  According to the DCBA Aide Memoire, you are only entitled to a one bedroom place, so make sure you don't get a place with two bedrooms.  You will find (as Pusser said) the majority of the places are downtown.  Because _everyone_ in Ottawa works at 101.   :


----------



## captloadie (9 Feb 2010)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> According to the DCBA Aide Memoire, you are only entitled to a one bedroom place, so make sure you don't get a place with two bedrooms.



On a bit of a tangent concerning the DCBA Aide Memoire, I have been reading alot of the grievances at this link:
 http://www.cfgb-cgfc.gc.ca/english/CS.html

It seems that grievances were filed because the Aide Memoire was used as the reference to "clarify" the regulations. However, the grievance board has continually stated that it cannot take precedence over the regulation and granted the grievance. I was wondering if any word has filtered down to the RMS world about quoting it as gospel.


----------



## PMedMoe (9 Feb 2010)

captloadie, I understand that.  I had a bit of an argument with CFSU(O) last year over their own IR briefing info sheet.  Changes were made _immediately_ after that.   :

I'm only trying to let members know what's going on here but I intend on looking up the actual directive as well.


----------



## CountDC (10 Feb 2010)

captloadie said:
			
		

> On a bit of a tangent concerning the DCBA Aide Memoire, I have been reading alot of the grievances at this link:
> http://www.cfgb-cgfc.gc.ca/english/CS.html
> 
> It seems that grievances were filed because the Aide Memoire was used as the reference to "clarify" the regulations. However, the grievance board has continually stated that it cannot take precedence over the regulation and granted the grievance. I was wondering if any word has filtered down to the RMS world about quoting it as gospel.



alot?  Only found seven concerning IR and 2 additional ones under SE with only 3 mentioning the Aide. You also failed to mention that none of them have made it through the CDS for approval yet.  No it has not filtered down to the RMS world not to use it as so far the recommendations are just that - recommendations. By the way, the board does not grant grievances - they make recommendations to the CDS who may approve, reject or partially approve the recommendations.

That being said - I agree with the board recommendations and hope the CDS does.


----------



## PMedMoe (10 Feb 2010)

Actually, the Aide Memoire states, right at the beginning:



> This document amplifies the CBIs and QR&Os referenced within.  In the event of any conflict between this Aide-Memoire and the CBIs or QR&Os, *the latter authorities prevail*.  However, amended CBIs on CTA, FCA and TR have been submitted to TBS, and have been approved in principal.  Therefore, the policy in this Aide Memoire concerning these CBIs is to be considered interim direction until the CBIs are published.



Of course, the last sentence is probably why I can't find an actual directive stating members on IR are only entitled to a one bedroom apartment (besides the Aide Memoire, that is).   :


----------



## dapaterson (10 Feb 2010)

Look at the DND Living Accommodation Instruction on the internet at: http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/pub/lai-il/index-eng.asp

It refers to DND owned accommodation, but one can extrapolate.

So, under section 4.1, it states that a one person household should have 650-1200 square feet of living space, 1 or 2 bedrooms, and 1 bathroom.  It does state as a note to the table that recommended standards are not to be interpreted as entitlements.

As DND holds no single quarters in the NCR, one must therefore seek equivalent accommodation on the economy. 

Note that the "One bedroom, sitting room and kitchenette" standard (per the Aide Memoire) is for Private Accommodation only - not for Commercial Accommodation.  So unless you're in a basement apartment of someone's house, or something else that constitutes Private Accommodation, they are mis-interpreting and mis-applying the policy.   The definition of Commerical Accommodation states that a one bedroom hotel apartment would be considered as that type, but that is not an exclusive definition - it states nowhere that a two bedroom is not.


Frankly, if they have time to pick incorrect nits it suggests that they have too much staff without enough work to do.



> 5. Commercial Accommodation
> Accommodation that is available at weekly or monthly rates that provide sleeping, meal preparation, and refrigeration facilities but does not constitute the member’s principal residence. One bedroom hotel type furnished apartment would fall under this category.






> 28. Private Accommodation
> Private accommodation not owned or rented by the member or by anyone that the member would normally reside with. Rooming houses, boarding arrangements would fall under this category.
> 29. Private Rented Accommodation
> Furnished or unfurnished private one bedroom apartment or dwelling that is not owned by the member or by anyone that the member would normally reside with.


----------



## PMedMoe (10 Feb 2010)

Thanks for the links, dapaterson.  Yes, I've looked through a lot of them.  I also found one that stated a Type VI accommodation.  This compares the accommodation to single quarters (military) which says one bedroom, private bath with kitchenette.  But I find it a little extreme to try and compare a civilian apartment to single quarters which would be more akin to a hotel room with a kitchenette, instead of a full apartment.  

I have an en suite washer and dryer, too, which is not found in single quarters.  Is this not allowed either?  Not like I want to spend my time "guarding" my laundry for fear of theft.  I agree with the nitpicking thing, too.  Really, if my rent does not exceed the allotted amount, I don't see what the issue is.  After all, _I_ am the one being inconvenienced, not the military.  Do I not have the right to be (relatively) comfortable in the place I spend 85-90% of my time in?  As I stated earlier, it's very difficult to find a furnished one bedroom in Ottawa, with the exception being right downtown.

Not to mention, here's what my IR brief stated:



> Accommodations in the National Capital Region:
> 
> -	CFAO 209-3
> -    CANFORGEN 080/99, 141600Z SEP 99
> ...



Nope, don't see anything about a one bedroom in there.

*This ref has since been removed or changed.


----------



## CountDC (10 Feb 2010)

Got to say this is the first I have heard of the 1 bedroom rule.  When I did some of the claims in Halifax I never checked whether it was a one bedroom - as long as it had a kitchen area included and did not exceed the maximum claimable I didn't care how many bedrooms it had. Maybe the one bedroom rule is something that someone introduced to keep people on IR from getting shared accomodations with someone else to split the rent while they claim the full amount?


----------



## PMedMoe (10 Feb 2010)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Maybe the one bedroom rule is something that someone introduced to keep people on IR from getting shared accomodations with someone else to split the rent while they claim the full amount?


Maybe.  I have no idea.  Ottawa has a lot of people on IR (in the range of 500-700 according to the email).  They can come see my apartment, the second bedroom is so full of kit, there couldn't possibly be another person living there.  Being in a high-readiness position requires me to have all my deployment kit here, where the hell else would I store it?  When I replied to the email asking how many bedrooms I had, I was tempted to say "one bedroom and one den".   >


----------



## dapaterson (10 Feb 2010)

No, one bedroom and a storage room.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (10 Feb 2010)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> "one bedroom and one den".



If one uses a bedroom as a den then it becomes a den,....no?

Tell them they must get past such stereotypical thinking....offer some SHARP handouts.
It's not to be called a "2 bedroom apartment", you will use the term, " it's an accommodating area that may have bedroom-like tendencies."


----------



## armyvern (10 Feb 2010)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Maybe.  I have no idea.  Ottawa has a lot of people on IR (in the range of 500-700 according to the email).  They can come see my apartment, the second bedroom is so full of kit, there couldn't possibly be another person living there.  Being in a high-readiness position requires me to have all my deployment kit here, where the hell else would I store it?  When I replied to the email asking how many bedrooms I had, I was tempted to say "one bedroom and one den".   >



I wonder if Ottawa is preparing "to use" it's IR status personnel to set some new kind of standard for the nation.

If Ottawa manages to pull this one off, what the heck are they going to tell IR pers who get posted in and there's NOt a single 1 bedroom apartment left in the town "too bad, you're on your own then?"

How could Ottawa implement such a thing when there are IR locations ... where "1 bedroom" apartments don't exist to rent (I was previously IR at one such location)? But houses existed to rent. The smallest apartments were 2 bedrooms. There were no singles quarters and no PMQs.

They've got IR guys here who "rent" PMQs ... and live in them alone. Is Ottawa suggesting that those pers not be covered because their PMQs are 3 bedrooms? Or are they going to "deduct percentages" from the IR entitlement for the "extra bedrooms" that sit empty each month through no fault of the IR person?

What about the IR guy who, by the books, "is entitled to rent a 1 bedroom", but can only find a bachelor apartment or a hotel room at his location to rent? Is Ottawa going to fork him over "extra money" *above* the rental cost because he's being forced to live in LESS space than he is entitled to by their policy? Somehow, me thinks NOT.

Someone really needs to put the cap back on the airplane glue. It's really starting to become odiferous in the search to shaft people.


----------



## PMedMoe (10 Feb 2010)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> If one uses a bedroom as a den then it becomes a den,....no?
> 
> Tell them they must get past such stereotypical thinking....offer some SHARP handouts.
> It's not to be called a "2 bedroom apartment", you will use the term, " it's an accommodating area that may have bedroom-like tendencies."


Maybe I'll try that one!   

Vern, I was thinking they were sniffing the white board markers too much.   ;D


----------



## opcougar (10 Feb 2010)

Thanks for this, really appreciate it. It's this kind of first hand experience that I was after, and you managed to point me in the right direction without being snub about it.

I am actually in Ottawa this week on my unaccompanied HHT, and I do plan to spend my weekends hunting for houses for the family for a summer move.

Thx





			
				Pusser said:
			
		

> For the record, I did exactly what opcougar is planning to do - came first on IR until kids finished school, then moved in the summer.  I found a place by phoning around using the list from the CFSU(O) IR desk.  I then made all the arrangements via e-mail/fax and secured the place sight unseen.  Since it was only for three months, I was prepared to accept the risk of ending up in a dive (I didn't).  I spent my weekends on IR checking out the housing market and when I felt I had a good short list and the market was right, I called my wife and had her come on the HHT.  I was working in the same basic timeframe (arrived in Ottawa in late March - HHT end of April -moved in early July).
> 
> You won't be able to stay in a hotel for any length of time.  You are only allowed seven days to find a place with cooking facilities.  After that, your meal allowance goes WAY down.  You need to find a furnished apartment as soon as possible.  Most of them seem to be downtown, but the bus service in Ottawa is not horrific (other than surly drivers who crank up the heat when everybody is wearing winter coats and who think they're at LeMans).
> 
> ...


----------



## armyvern (10 Feb 2010)

opcougar said:
			
		

> Thanks for this, really appreciate it. It's this kind of first hand experience that I was after, and you managed to point me in the right direction without being snub about it.



Oh for fucks sakes.  :

Moe:

Thank you very much for all your excellent links and pointers in this thread!! You see, I too will be posted to Ottawa after my course ... IR.

Your links have given me the capability to see what's out there in the way of accomodation and to "research" the areas of the town myself to see what each has to offer that I (vice you) am interested in. I certainly don't expect "you" to "know" what does or does not appeal to me or my family ... but you have given me the means and the links to determine that for myself.

No high-priced babysitting of me required. Beers for you and for ALL your assistance ... on me!!


----------



## PMedMoe (11 Feb 2010)

No problem, Vern.  Anytime.  Looking forward to the beers.   :cheers:


----------



## captloadie (11 Feb 2010)

From what I have heard, and yes this is only rumour, but the one bedroom interpretation was trying to be implemented to cut down on fraud. It has been said (rumour once again), that some members on IR have been renting homes and subletting rooms out. Yes it is fraud, and yes it is dishonest, but it was apparently happening. In true military fashion, instead of dealing with the few troublemakers, they are applying the broad brush approach and restricting everyone to limit this potential to beat the system.


----------



## PMedMoe (11 Feb 2010)

That's all good and fine.  My question is, if we _have_ to move, who is going to do it and/or pay for it?  I can tell you, I have a crapload of kit and personal items that I have brought from home (mostly military kit) and purchased* since I came here which would require several carloads to move.  Do we get time off to do this?  Will they give us the advance for first/last month rent again?

It would probably be easier just to "grandfather" those of us already in situ but I can see that being a problem too.

*Furnished apartment yes, but still needed some items.


----------



## armyvern (11 Feb 2010)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> It would probably be easier just to "grandfather" those of us already in situ but I can see that being a problem too.



Absolutely. What the hell are they going to do for an IR pers where "sorry, no one bedrooms are available?" Etc etc - tell them too bad? Sorry if you can only get a two bedroom for under your 1600 buck ceiling, but that's your problem - not ours?

If they catch guys committing fraud - it's really quite simple - CHARGE THEIR asses (so what if it takes a general to do it) rather than create massive logistical nightmares for the rest of us (ie the 99.9999%) who play by the rules.

Unless, of course, the system wants to "start arranging to book blocks of single bedrroms themselves for pers who will be coming in IR". But, I've got 1 freaking week ... (and the last place I was posted to IR - I didn't even get that HHT week) and if all I can find is a 2 bedroom ... that's all I can find and if it's under the limit ... it's under the limit.

For crying out loud. If they want to micro-manage that badly ... then they can find me the damn place to live too - just to ensure that it suits them. Save me the heartache and the hundreds of others the heartache too just because _they_ don't want to deal with the .01% who abuse the system.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (11 Feb 2010)

Maybe it's just the Union guy in me but when they approved, and started paying, the apartment you currently live then they set your precedent and, to be blunt, you should tell somebody to hoop their forehead.


----------



## armyvern (11 Feb 2010)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Maybe it's just the Union guy in me but when they approved, and started paying, the apartment you currently live then they set your precedent and, to be blunt, you should tell somebody to hoop their forehead.



Oh, I'd agree with you on that; you have to give them a copy of your lease in order to get your IR claim moving. Thus, grandfathering pers currently IR would seem to be the way to go.

That still leaves future pers who can't find a one bedroom, but who can find a two bedroom etc under the limit. The powers that be are going to have to fugure out what to do in those sits BEFORE anything "further limiting" comes down as official ... but something sends my spidey senses on the fritz about that occuring because _that_ would just make common sense.


----------



## opcougar (23 Feb 2010)

Thx 2 everyone that contributed to this thread, really appreciate! I arrived in Ottawa on Sunday on IR, went to NDHQ to sort out the claim, the cpl I dealt with was great, opened a file for me, too all the paper work I had on me, and managed to get me a cheque for the 1 month $1700 I paid to my place of residence a day before.

He provided me with the form needed for the monthly submission and walked me through the whole process of sending in the completed form with the receipt, in order to get refunded.

Whilst there, I also popped in to see Brookfield to tell them that am now in Ottawa and to see if my file has been sent there yet? It wasn't there yet, so I'll wait out.

Oh...I was in cadpat, and yes I saw the sign hanging there saying no jeans and denim


----------



## Proud Sup Tech (26 Feb 2010)

Welcome to Ottawa.  I have been living here quite a few times on my rubber band postings (here out west etc.)  I think that you may like the South Ottawa area, getting to StarTop is pretty easy (I bus it from Uplands) and there are lots of amenities in this area of town.  If you want some more info about the area (I have been here for quite a bit) just send me a personal msg and we could meet up to talk about the area.


----------



## PMedMoe (6 Apr 2010)

Well, well, well......

While looking at the DCBA website (for something else entirely), I found their Aide Memoire PowerPoint presentation (for the clerks) and it states that only a one bedroom is authorized (good luck finding one in Ottawa) but that *it is up to the IR Section to confirm* that the rental is a one bedroom.


----------



## CountDC (6 Apr 2010)

first hit - less than a minute came up with a few locations for 1 bedrooms - Juliana Apts Albert-Bronson location for $1435 and up. Promenade-York in the Byward Market has unfurnished for $1250 and up. McEwen Towers even has them for the low price of $795!! My search came up with 110 records of 1 bedroom apartments with rentals up to $1600. I am sure that some of them are false leads in that the apartments are already taken.

I think it is more a matter of good luck finding one that you would want to live in - most are low rent for a reason.


----------



## armyvern (6 Apr 2010)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Well, well, well......
> 
> While looking at the DCBA website (for something else entirely), I found their Aide Memoire PowerPoint presentation (for the clerks) and it states that only a one bedroom is authorized (good luck finding one in Ottawa) but that *it is up to the IR Section to confirm* that the rental is a one bedroom.



LOL. The bulk of IR guys here (and in Gagetown) are renting entire HOUSES for under the limit ... and having it paid for. That's what's available for rent locally; that's what they rent.


----------



## PMedMoe (6 Apr 2010)

CountDC said:
			
		

> first hit - less than a minute came up with a few locations for 1 bedrooms - Juliana Apts Albert-Bronson location for $1435 and up. Promenade-York in the Byward Market has unfurnished for $1250 and up. McEwen Towers even has them for the low price of $795!! My search came up with 110 records of 1 bedroom apartments with rentals up to $1600. I am sure that some of them are false leads in that the apartments are already taken.
> 
> I think it is more a matter of good luck finding one that you would want to live in - most are low rent for a reason.


Furnished?  Month to month lease?  Close to where I (and others) work?  Like I said earlier in this thread, not everyone works downtown.

Vern, I've seen condos and townhouses advertised as IR rentals in Petawawa.  Imagine, a yard, a garage.....oh, the luxury. :


----------



## armyvern (6 Apr 2010)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> ...
> Vern, I've seen condos and townhouses advertised as IR rentals in Petawawa.  Imagine, a yard, a garage.....oh, the luxury. :



Ahhh yes, I had a fully furnished 2 bedroom apartment with all inclusive during my IR posting in Charlottetown ... waterfront, right across the street from Timmies!! I was in like _Errol_ ... 

Edited to add: And that DCBA Aide Memoire stated the same thing about "1 bedroom" back then too; funny thing is though ... with monthly leases, looking for furnished ... beggars don't always get to be choosers even if they happen to be in the CF - you take what you can get; someone in Ottawa needs to figure that out quick.


----------



## CountDC (7 Apr 2010)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Furnished?  Month to month lease?  Close to where I (and others) work?  Like I said earlier in this thread, not everyone works downtown.
> 
> Vern, I've seen condos and townhouses advertised as IR rentals in Petawawa.  Imagine, a yard, a garage.....oh, the luxury. :



Various locations scattered throughout the Ottawa area, both furnished and unfurnished which is good because at the rates of some you have room in the claimable amount to rent furniture.  Terms are varied too.  Close is a relative term - I consider the PMQs at uplands close to downtown, takes me 30-40 minutes to bike to work going Riverside, Hogs Back and along Canal using the bike trails.  Bus takes about 30 minutes, car takes me about 20 to 30.  Proximity to work is not really a factor in the policy, it is a personal preferance. The real problem is finding a place in a location that you would want to live - they are cheap for a reason.  I looked in the same areas for family housing when I moved here and ended up taking a PMQ instead.  The swastikas and colourful words painted on the walls in one place turned me off that location.  At another the rental agent CFHA had hired for me wouldn't roam from his car so I figured that was out (although that may have just been his laziness), another had a dead rat in the kitchen.

I would not recommend most of these places, just pointing out that it is possible to find a one bedroom if the regulation was enforced and you really want it.  The reason it isn't is because there isn't enough quality units out there - no one wants to tell people they have to live in roach hotels.


----------



## COBRA-6 (7 Apr 2010)

I recommend something off Elgin street, lots of one bedroom apts around $800/mo. Very short walk to the transitway and busses to anywhere in the city. Being able to walk to the market, shopping, restaurants etc on a whim is fantastic.


----------



## dapaterson (7 Apr 2010)

COBRA-6 said:
			
		

> I recommend something off Elgin street, lots of one bedroom apts around $800/mo. Very short walk to the transitway and busses to anywhere in the city. Being able to walk to the_* bars * _  on a whim is fantastic.



Fixed it for you...


----------



## PMedMoe (7 Apr 2010)

Well, I don't have to worry about it anymore.   ;D

I also found rental furniture hard to find as it cannot be rent-to-own.  I did find a few places that rent only (for staging, etc), but at a cost that would limit your rent amount.


----------



## COBRA-6 (7 Apr 2010)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Fixed it for you...



shhhh... I'm trying to pass myself off as an upstanding citizen


----------



## CountDC (7 Apr 2010)

and is anyone buying it?   ;D


----------



## Slainte11 (7 Apr 2010)

If anyone is interested, I have a fully furnished condo available at Hunt Club / Hawthorne. Former tenant was also someone on IR.

I can be reached @ pcarriere11@yahoo.ca or 613-867-5453

Thanks

Paul


----------



## navig8ur (7 Apr 2010)

Here in Halifax a letter was sent to all those occupying unit's with more than 1 bedroom advising them they had until 30 April to vacate as they were not in compliance with DCBA guidelines.  Made for some interesting times.


----------



## PMedMoe (7 Apr 2010)

Valley Denizen said:
			
		

> Here in Halifax a letter was sent to all those occupying unit's with more than 1 bedroom advising them they had until 30 April to vacate as they were not in compliance with DCBA guidelines.  Made for some interesting times.



Really?  Are they moving on their own dime?  Will they be provided first and last months rent again?  Are they being given time to look for a new place and to move?  Were they briefed as to only being allowed a one bedroom?  Did the IR section ensure they only had one bedroom? 

I only ask, as I'm sure these are questions that will come up.  Never having been on IR (outside of living in barracks), I was not aware of what was acceptable, in terms of rentals.  I did request a list of accommodations from Ottawa, but never received one.  I moved into a building in which other people on IR were living (and still live).  I was never given a brief that stated I was only allowed one bedroom.  No one ever questioned it until now.  So because someone else dropped the ball, the members on IR are going to penalized?

I'm glad I'm posted this year otherwise, I'd be getting my ducks in a row.



			
				Slainte11 said:
			
		

> If anyone is interested, I have a fully furnished condo available at Hunt Club / Hawthorne. Former tenant was also someone on IR.



Judging from the comment posted by Valley Denizen, if it has more than one bedroom, you won't be able to rent it to someone on IR.


----------



## CountDC (7 Apr 2010)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Really?  Are they moving on their own dime?  Will they be provided first and last months rent again?  Are they being given time to look for a new place and to move?  Were they briefed as to only being allowed a one bedroom?  Did the IR section ensure they only had one bedroom?
> 
> I only ask, as I'm sure these are questions that will come up.  Never having been on IR (outside of living in barracks), I was not aware of what was acceptable, in terms of rentals.  I did request a list of accommodations from Ottawa, but never received one.  I moved into a building in which other people on IR were living (and still live).  I was never given a brief that stated I was only allowed one bedroom.  No one ever questioned it until now.  So because someone else dropped the ball, the members on IR are going to penalized?



bet they throw it back on the member - "it is the members responsibility to be aware of the rules and policies, to ask questions of the subject matter expert when not sure and ensure they are within said rules and policies."   

I do know in the first half of 2006 members in Halifax were informed of the DCBA policy but don't think anyone even checked the lease to see if it was a 1 bedroom.  As I recall the only concern was that it had members name on it and the monthly amount.


----------



## PMedMoe (7 Apr 2010)

CountDC said:
			
		

> bet they throw it back on the member



I have absolutely no doubt that they will.  Pretty hard to get information from a section that doesn't answer phones or emails, from a intranet system that has rules and regs all over the place, an Aide Memoire (or copied brief from the above section) that is outs of date, etc, etc.


----------



## Major_Malfunction (7 Apr 2010)

I live in Ottawa and the area i live in has a TON of CF members who walk down to the local bus station and hop on for a 20 minute ride to and from DND down town. (if you're single) Try the Lincolnfields area. 1000sqft apartments for about $1250 and it's by 2 malls 4 grocery stores and the big bus station.

Most CF people I've met (with family and whatnot) live in Kanata. Big houses for lots of bucks but a ton of express routes right to DND's front door. Take you about 35 mins to and from on a good day.

My sister rents a big house in Kanata for $2000/month. 

Doesn't get much better than Kanata, Hunt Club, and Orleans though... if you have a family.


----------



## CountDC (7 Apr 2010)

2K is 2 thirds of my monthly pay so I guess I will stick with my $920 PMQ instead of moving to Kanata   ;D


----------



## Journeyman (7 Apr 2010)

CountDC said:
			
		

> > My sister rents a big house in Kanata for $2000/month.
> 
> 
> 2K is 2 thirds of my monthly pay so I guess I will stick with my $920 PMQ instead of moving to Kanata   ;D


Oh, go on, you haven't even seen pics yet


...of the house! Pics of the house!


----------



## CountDC (7 Apr 2010)

:rofl:

thanks - needed a good laugh for end of day.


----------



## armyvern (7 Apr 2010)

CountDC said:
			
		

> bet they throw it back on the member - "it is the members responsibility to be aware of the rules and policies, to ask questions of the subject matter expert when not sure and ensure they are within said rules and policies."
> 
> I do know in the first half of 2006 members in Halifax were informed of the DCBA policy but don't think anyone even checked the lease to see if it was a 1 bedroom.  As I recall the only concern was that it had members name on it and the monthly amount.



These "rules" and/or their "strict enforcement" are f'n quaint aren't they?

Shit like this happens when people do not use common sense. Hello Ottawa (and apparently hello Halifax too).

I can tell you this much, during my IR in Charlottetown PEI, the only 1 bedroom apartments for rent were unfurnished. And, they were for terms of year-long leasing. (year-long <--- which itself is NOT a lease term recommended by the IR overseers and their DCBA Aide memoire) with all those Holland College & UPEI students in mind. There was NO place in the entire province to "rent furniture" to furnish it with, there only being the Rent-to-own places (which is itself prohibited by those overseers of IR and their DCBA Aide Memoire).

So, I could get a two-bedroom, fully furnished apartment for UNDER the monthly entitlement limit ... but not a one bedroom and certainly not a one bedroom furnished apartment. I was located away from the uni district.

I'd have loved to be the one they (or Ottawa) told "move out" of the two bedroom because you aren't "entitled to it".

Yo dudes, word up: It SAVED the taxpayers money monthly by me being in a furnished 2 bedroom vice an unfurnished 1 bedroom ... and if you had expected to me to sleep on a floor in a one bedroom because "that" was "all" that I was entitled to because I refused to purchase furniture when there was no place to rent it and the CF put me there IR in the first place ... I'll guarantee my redress of grieveance would have made it's eventual way to the Omsbudsman.

If people are under their monthly entitlement limit be it a one bedroom or two bedroom --- there is ZERO problem to fix. But, situation normal for some "enforcer" to render invalid common sense application according to "availability" in locale.

Some f'n asshat on IR probably claimed his 2 bedroom apartment and got nailed sub-letting the second bedroom out to some non-CF type while claiming his full IR rental cost each month ... causing those who refuse to punish pers who abuse the system to fuck around the rest of us who don't. Now _that_ IS normal for the CF. <--- You know, I'm willing to bet a pole dance on that; and, Recceguy, I'd even move my cereal bowl out of the way of the webcam.


----------



## dapaterson (7 Apr 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> You know, I'm willing to bet a pole dance on that; and, Recceguy, I'd even move my cereal bowl out of the way of the webcam.



Is the pole in a second bedroom?

If not, was it part of the furniture provided as part of the lease, or are you renting it?


----------



## GAP (7 Apr 2010)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Is the pole in a second bedroom?
> 
> If not, was it part of the furniture provided as part of the lease, or are you renting it?



Please take into account local "noise abatement bylaws" in respect to the loud music that generally accompanies said "poles" (or so I heard...I wouldn't know personally), and, additionally, if this was to generate a part time income was it cleared with your CO?  ;D (duck)


----------



## Slainte11 (7 Apr 2010)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Really?  Are they moving on their own dime?  Will they be provided first and last months rent again?  Are they being given time to look for a new place and to move?  Were they briefed as to only being allowed a one bedroom?  Did the IR section ensure they only had one bedroom?
> 
> I only ask, as I'm sure these are questions that will come up.  Never having been on IR (outside of living in barracks), I was not aware of what was acceptable, in terms of rentals.  I did request a list of accommodations from Ottawa, but never received one.  I moved into a building in which other people on IR were living (and still live).  I was never given a brief that stated I was only allowed one bedroom.  No one ever questioned it until now.  So because someone else dropped the ball, the members on IR are going to penalized?
> 
> ...



My last tenant was on IR and I've cleared my rental accommodation with a relocation coordinator here in Ottawa to ensure that the lease for my condo is compliant with DCBA regulations.


----------



## PMedMoe (7 Apr 2010)

Slainte11 said:
			
		

> My last tenant was on IR and I've cleared my rental accommodation with a relocation coordinator here in Ottawa to ensure that the lease for my condo is compliant with DCBA regulations.



Wait for it.  What does a relocation coordinator know about the CF regulations??  If people in Halifax have received notice to move, and Ottawa is doing a witch two-bedroom hunt, you can bet that a message advising IR pers to move is on the way.

Vern, well said.


----------



## Slainte11 (7 Apr 2010)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Wait for it.  What does a relocation coordinator know about the CF regulations??  If people in Halifax have received notice to move, and Ottawa is doing a witch two-bedroom hunt, you can bet that a message advising IR pers to move is on the way.
> 
> Vern, well said.



http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/rel-rei/cfi-crf/cfrcc-crfcmr-eng.asp

Message was already sent to my tenant... that's why I spoke with the appropriate personnel to ensure my rental unit was compliant. So it's available if anyone is interested.


----------



## armyvern (7 Apr 2010)

Well Slainte ... I'm waiting for an actual posting message still ... could be one of three places ... CFRG HQ, 38 Bgde HQ or that other place that ends with HQ ...

Does your condo come equipped with a pole?? Just curious.  8)


----------



## PMedMoe (7 Apr 2010)

Slainte11 said:
			
		

> http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/rel-rei/cfi-crf/cfrcc-crfcmr-eng.asp
> 
> Message was already sent to my tenant... that's why I spoke with the appropriate personnel to ensure my rental unit was compliant. So it's available if anyone is interested.



Well, good luck, then.  Maybe the IR/DCBA stupidity hasn't hit Ottawa yet.


----------



## Occam (7 Apr 2010)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Well, good luck, then.  Maybe the stupidity hasn't hit Ottawa yet.



You may want to qualify that.  There's stupidity _in spades_ around Ottawa, as I'm sure you're well aware.   ;D


----------



## armyvern (7 Apr 2010)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Well, good luck, then.  Maybe the stupidity hasn't hit Ottawa yet.



Maybe it has hit (his former tenant did receive the notification after all) and ergo his clarification ...

Maybe, just maybe, his advertized condo _*is*_ a 1 bedroom.


----------



## George Wallace (7 Apr 2010)

Spades?

It is a frackin Backhoe!

 ;D


----------



## PMedMoe (7 Apr 2010)

Occam said:
			
		

> You may want to qualify that.  There's stupidity _in spades_ around Ottawa, as I'm sure you're well aware.   ;D



Done.      I even thought about that after I posted.  I cannot wait to get out of here!!  :nod:



			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Maybe, just maybe, his advertized condo _*is*_ a 1 bedroom.



Perhaps it is.  Wouldn't it have just been easier to say so?


----------



## armyvern (7 Apr 2010)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Done.      I even thought about that after I posted.  I cannot wait to get out of here!!  :nod:
> 
> Perhaps it is.  Wouldn't it have just been easier to say so?



Perhaps it would have been easier --- I did read his post about it's availability, but it doesn't state the number of bedrooms ...

But, if it is a 1 bedroom ...

All those backhoe drivers can be rest assured that there is still PLENTY of "work" for them in Ottawa.


----------



## Occam (7 Apr 2010)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Done.      I even thought about that after I posted.  I cannot wait to get out of here!!  :nod:



The line forms behind me.


----------



## Gunner98 (7 Apr 2010)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Various locations scattered throughout the Ottawa area, both furnished and unfurnished which is good because at the rates of some you have room in the claimable amount to rent furniture...The reason it isn't is because there isn't enough quality units out there - no one wants to tell people they have to live in roach hotels.



Since this thread is entitled Moving to Ottawa on IR, I will add my 2 cents.  I have lived in the Extended Stay Hotel in downtown which is perfect for me attending U of Ottawa since Sep 09 and many others who work at  NDHQ.  Some of my IR inmates have been in the hotel for as long as 8 years.  It is conveniently located behind City Hall.  Laundry facilities, sauna, whirlpool, mini-gym in basement. Sofa bed and tv in living room and King-size bed with flat-screen on wall of bedroom.  Highly-recommend it.


----------



## PMedMoe (7 Apr 2010)

8 years!!     I think I would have been crazy by then......of course, I have a good head start.

I have nothing against living downtown, I just would have been broke if I had.


----------



## navig8ur (7 Apr 2010)

Halifax did not provide any guidance WRT bedrooms when I asked prior to my posting..........they just provided the max amt allowable for furniture and accom, which is 1450$ in these parts.   I stated that I had a one bedroom when asked in Nov by the OR staff, and my landlord replied the same when they were asked by the OR staff around the same time.  The letter stated that according to my civic address,  you are in a 2 or more bedroom unit so somehow they believed I and my landlord were fibbing.

The references provided in the letter were the DCBA Aide Memoire and the CF Living Accommodation Instruction which is the source document to the AM.  As noted in this forum earlier, the CMP instruction provides for a 1 or 2 bedroom standard.

The letter did not provide any information about how I was to move or who would pay the costs.

Livin`the dream in Halifax


----------



## CountDC (8 Apr 2010)

?? does this happen to be a legal apartment you are living in??  Just that it seems strange that the address is registerd as 2 or more.  Only time I have seen that was with a non-legal basement apartment (which most are non-legal).


----------



## navig8ur (8 Apr 2010)

I'm not too sure where the base got their information from as it is clearly a one bedroom condo.  My landlord was as baffled as I on this one and as he pointed out,  if it was a 2 bedroom he would certainly receive more rent.  I sent in photo's and the listing sheet to prove that it was a one bedroom.  

In any case I am OK in this regard but I know of others who are caught up in the mess in that they are being told to comply with a lower level instruction when the source document certainly indicates a 2 bedroom is suitable.  I wonder how they will treat those in PMQ's across the country as the Q's have 2 or more bedrooms.


----------



## dapaterson (8 Apr 2010)

Valley Denizen said:
			
		

> I wonder how they will treat those in PMQ's across the country as the Q's have 2 or more bedrooms.



No doubt Base CE will come out to wall off the unauthorized bedrooms...


----------



## CountDC (8 Apr 2010)

3 or 4 years down the road ...


----------



## PMedMoe (8 Apr 2010)

Well, it's CFHA now, not CE, so likely it'll take twice as long.


----------



## CountDC (8 Apr 2010)

oops missed that.  4 years and counting for the work they promise me will be done every year. Think I struck a nerve when I mentioned I would most likely be posted before it actually got done. Odds are..... they have this year to beat me on that, I have already been told that next year I will be posted (although of course that could change).

Now why does my box extend off the screen to the right when I am typing??


----------



## PMedMoe (8 Apr 2010)

Are you in self-help housing?  If so, different kettle of fish.  They are maintained by PSP, not CFHA.

Yes, my text box is the same.  I think it's a glitch from he recent update.


----------



## CountDC (8 Apr 2010)

oh hell no - SHH was no good for my family, in the PMQs. I pay about $300 more (I think it is $920 now) and get a lot more space - large front and back yard, 5 bedroom (ok 1 bedroom is a room a previous occupant had put in the basement and CFHA left there) unit with a partially finished basement (walls are done) that is actually useable (no flooding here!). Oh I also have a driveway that has room for 3 vehicles plus the shed.


----------



## PMedMoe (8 Apr 2010)

Nice, you must be in the old Rockcliffe site, yes?


----------



## dapaterson (8 Apr 2010)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Well, it's CFHA now, not CE, so likely it'll take twice as long.



No - repairs to make it livable - 2 year delay.  Work to make it less livable - 24 hour turn around.

Priorities, you know...


----------



## Slainte11 (10 Apr 2010)

Well indeed there is.... but I'll need you to sign a waiver to take responsibility if you whack your head off the furnace...it's a tight fit in there !  ;D



			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Well Slainte ... I'm waiting for an actual posting message still ... could be one of three places ... CFRG HQ, 38 Bgde HQ or that other place that ends with HQ ...
> 
> Does your condo come equipped with a pole?? Just curious.  8)


----------



## armyvern (10 Apr 2010)

Slainte11 said:
			
		

> Well indeed there is.... but I'll need you to sign a waiver to take responsibility if you whack your head off the furnace...it's a tight fit in there !  ;D



Well, this week it seems that it has changed yet again ... (remember that's why you never believe anything until you've got the message in hand - & even then it can still change, but at least your ass is covered) ... looks like it's going to be Kingston.


----------



## CountDC (12 Apr 2010)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Nice, you must be in the old Rockcliffe site, yes?



Nope - Uplands.  have the cheapest Q there of that size.  Hasn't been refurbished yet so the rent has stayed low - now 937.99 since 1 Apr.  I'm thinking when we move they will do the work and jack the rent.


----------



## ubergeek_123 (22 Apr 2010)

Does anyone know if there are accommodations available on the base?


----------



## PMedMoe (22 Apr 2010)

I would try contacting one of the Base/Wing clerks.


----------



## GAP (22 Apr 2010)

Yes there is accommodations....like PMedMoe said, contact one of the clerks there for your specific needs...


----------



## OldSolduer (22 Apr 2010)

Try this:

http://17wing.winnipeg.mil.ca/waccom/

Welcome to Winnipeg...bring mosquito repellant, extra heavy duty shock absorbers, a parka and winter tires. 

A good sense of humour is required as well. >


----------



## GAP (22 Apr 2010)

Silverback....that link seems to be dead

try this http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/17w-17e/index-eng.asp


----------



## dapaterson (22 Apr 2010)

Silverback`s link is DWAN only.

More important DWAN link: http://17wing.winnipeg.mil.ca/waccom/waccn/NIL%20IR%20Quarters.htm



> There is a severe shortage of available single quarters (SQ), at 17 WG Winnipeg.  This due to the mandated Trg requirements of the resident of CF Schools and the large influx of single Pers posted/att-posted and Btl Members who fall within the parameters.
> 
> Effective immediately and until further notice, there will be no single quarter approvals for individuals proceeding on an authorized imposed restriction (IR) to 17 WG Winnipeg.


----------



## PMedMoe (22 Apr 2010)

Well, that message is dated 2003, but the situation probably hasn't changed.  I know all the IR people in Borden had to move out of the barracks a few years ago.


----------



## GAP (22 Apr 2010)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Silverback`s link is DWAN only.
> 
> More important DWAN link: http://17wing.winnipeg.mil.ca/waccom/waccn/NIL%20IR%20Quarters.htm



Duh.... ;D


----------



## OldSolduer (22 Apr 2010)

yall know what I meant! LOL

Sunscreen is helpful too. Oh......and the Palamino Club is fertile hunting grounds for the notorius Winnipeg Cougar.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (22 Apr 2010)

I don't know about 17 Wing, but if you are on IR at 12 Wing, you can't stay in the shacks regardless if there are rooms available or not.

Not sure of the directive/policy, but I know when I was living-in in Warrior, the guy who was on IR from 14 Wing that moved in beside me got booted a week later once they found out he was on IR.


----------



## Armynewsguy (22 Apr 2010)

Here at 8 Wing all IR folks are forced to live in the shacks.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (22 Apr 2010)

That makes sense $$-wise.  If there are rooms available in the already existing (and paid for with our tax dollars) facilities, why is the Accn folks with FAdmO in Halifax forcing people onto the economy and wasting $?  Its just a waste of $1400'ish a month IMO...and no doubt all that $ adds up PDQ.


----------



## irlandaiscanuck (25 Jun 2010)

Hey there,

I'm sorry if this question has been asked before (I would be surprised if it hasn't been) but I've been searching through the threads both using the search function and Google for a couple of hours now and can't seem to find it.

My husband is working on his application for RMC for entrance in the 2011-2012 school year and I'm curious about how our living situation would be affected if he is accepted. 

On the RMC website it says that: 

Cadets who are married or have common law status *may* be authorized by their chain of command to live out.

(emphasis mine)

In your experience are married cadets generally granted authorization? In what kinds of situations would they not be given authorization? Is authorization given before or after school starts? 

He's trying to decide between ROTP at CivvyU and RMC and these are kind of the tipping point questions. He would prefer RMC for so many reasons, but we don't really want to live separately for most of the time that he's there. So if the chances of living together are 50/50 he's more likely to go for CivvyU. But if it's more like 90% then why not RMC? 

I'm fully prepared  (well, as much as I can be) for spending lots of time alone when he's on other training courses, deployed, etc. But why do so if we don't have to, right? Besides, I like Kingston and would most likely move there just to be closer if it were the only option. 

Just like to have all the facts.

Thanks,

Ashleigh


----------



## PMedMoe (25 Jun 2010)

IIRC, usually, first year students have to live in.  After that, I believe they can apply to move out on the economy.

As far as "deciding" between civvy U and RMC, he may not have a choice.


----------



## Otis (26 Jun 2010)

Moe is right again!

You do not get a choice between RMC and civvie U ... we require that you apply to civvie U's when you apply to us... RMC decides who they want to get ROTP ... they tell US who's going to be offered RMC and who's going to be offered civvie U ... you don't like their choice, you turn down the job and try again next year ...

That's the end of my expertise ... I have no idea about living in / living out at RMC ... sorry.


----------



## irlandaiscanuck (26 Jun 2010)

Thanks Moe and Otis. 

I must have misread some other threads where people were recommending that others go the route of ROTP at a civilian university. Either way, even if it means spending a whole lot of time apart, RMC is worth it and would be preferred. So *fingers crossed*

I would still appreciate it if anyone else could provide more insight as to how it works for married couples at RMC. I've seen plenty of answers regarding 'going common-law' or having a pregnant girlfriend but it was all for current students.

Thanks again,

Ashleigh


----------



## mathabos (26 Jun 2010)

I was able to apply to Rotp for this September with Civi university as my only option. I was half way into my second year when I applied.

However, as stated before, it is now required to put both RMC and Civi universities. Having completed a year or two of Civi university did let me apply solely to my university. I could not comment on that situation now that policy has been changed. Maybe someone else can offer some insight.


----------



## PMedMoe (26 Jun 2010)

irlandaiscanuck said:
			
		

> I would still appreciate it if anyone else could provide more insight as to how it works for married couples at RMC. I've seen plenty of answers regarding 'going common-law' or having a pregnant girlfriend but it was all for current students.



If I were to hazard a guess, I suppose your spouse would go to RMC on IR (Imposed Restriction - meaning no move of furniture, dependents, etc) until such time as he would be allowed to live off campus.  But. I'm just guessing.


----------



## hold_fast (26 Jun 2010)

mathabos said:
			
		

> I was able to apply to Rotp for this September with Civi university as my only option. I was half way into my second year when I applied.
> 
> However, as stated before, it is now required to put both RMC and Civi universities. Having completed a year or two of Civi university did let me apply solely to my university. I could not comment on that situation now that policy has been changed. Maybe someone else can offer some insight.



Yet, I was in just starting my *third year* at a Civi university this past semester, and they told me I must put down RMC as an option in order to apply.


----------



## yoman (26 Jun 2010)

There are several people that I know who are married at RMC and they live out. I do not know what the policy is on being a married first year cadet is but once in 2nd year your husband should get the "ok" to live off if the current policy continues.


----------



## captloadie (28 Jun 2010)

The rules used to allow for married Ocdts to live on base or in town. They had to have a room on campus with their kit in it for inspections, etc. The request had to be approved by the Chain of Command, and would normally only be authorized after recruit term ended (FYOP now?). However, the cadet still had to abide by all the restrictions and timings for his year. Ergo, if there was a curfew, or you had to wear uniforms in town, married members had to abide them, even though they lived off campus.

Married Ocdts always had the largest circle of friends, as it usually became a flop house for the rest of the gang to hang out, drink, etc.

All this being said, alot may have changed since I last checked on the rules.


----------



## Otis (28 Jun 2010)

I just talked to RMC and captloadie appears to be correct. 

It SEEMS that you must maintain a room during your first year, even if you are not staying there the entire time, and you must stay on campus during orientation (the first five weeks or so).

Once you have proven to RMC that you are married, you will be permitted to set up your family nearby. They would PREFER that you live in PMQ's if possible (as it's very close by and will make it easier to meet your timings) but that is not absolutely required. Also, you must be flexible, as there will be times when you may be ordered to stay in quarters or where it would be to your advantage to stay in quarters ... 

Otis

Edited after conversation with RMC.


----------



## irlandaiscanuck (30 Jun 2010)

Thanks everybody for the replies, especially Otis. That's definitely a compromise I can live with and as long as there is a PMQ available, I would be more than happy to live close to the campus. It's definitely a better solution than only seeing each other occasionally when he has time off, especially as I'm hoping to be a student at Queen's at the same time.

Thanks again!

Ashleigh


----------



## SELC (11 Jul 2010)

The following is a sentence from my ETP Instruction message. I'm going to Ottawa and will be on the GeoTech course. Could someone explain exactly what the sentence means, and explain how things are supposed to go once I get to Ottawa this Friday? My local orderly room hasn't been able to find out much, and the OR at the MCE won't talk to me.

E. MOVE OF F AND E IS RESTRICTED IAW REF C, FIN CODE: 3398CG FUNDS C107 M000392794 GL2014 (F AND E) GL2017 FOR ALL OTHER COSTS.


----------



## armyvern (11 Jul 2010)

SELC said:
			
		

> The following is a sentence from my ETP Instruction message. I'm going to Ottawa and will be on the GeoTech course. Could someone explain exactly what the sentence means, and explain how things are supposed to go once I get to Ottawa this Friday? My local orderly room hasn't been able to find out much, and the OR at the MCE won't talk to me.
> 
> E. MOVE OF F AND E IS RESTRICTED IAW REF C, FIN CODE: 3398CG FUNDS C107 M000392794 GL2014 (F AND E) GL2017 FOR ALL OTHER COSTS.



The yellow bit tells them the Financial Coding from our FY budget that will be used for your move. GL2014 for F&E - GL2017 for all other costs etc.

Currently, the movement of your F&E (Furniture & Effects) is restricted IAW Ref C as per the blue bit. That means that you arenb't moving your F&E to Ottawa with you _right now_. Further details as to when you can, or what you have to do, and why it is "restricted" would be found at "Ref C."   Near the top of your message, just under the DTG (date Time Group), you will see the "Refs" listed --- what does your Ref C say (IE QR&O ~~~ etc etc)?


----------



## SELC (11 Jul 2010)

SELC's wife writing...

If I'm looking at the right spot on the ETP message (printed out next to me), REF C is CFAO 209-28. Another "C" I'm seeing says MCE OTTAWA (9906-1786) AWTR. Another "C" under 3 says NO RA. I'm not sure where the DTG is on this message....


----------



## CountDC (12 Jul 2010)

Please tell me you are not saying that a regular force orderly room has not been able to help you.  They should be able to read the message and either give the answers or at least get the answers.  

Not sure what 209.28 is but I believe it has something to do with living accomodations in the base area.

As you are going on course (how long is the course?) I would guess that they are not authorizing a cost move as the course is too short and they expect to post you once the course is done. The other possibility is that you were expected to see your movement section, do an HHT and then get the restriction lifted so you could move. If this has been done then there is no worry about that line anymore.

Once in Ottawa contact your receiving unit - they should tell you everything you need to know (HA!! I did say should). Also contact CFSU(O) to book an inclearance - again they should (yes HA!) be able to give you all kinds of info you need.


----------



## acooper (12 Jul 2010)

Selc's wife writing again (I'm at the computer more, and actually remembered to log in with my own account this time!)

The course is a 2 year course. We finally got in touch with the CWO he'll be reporting to today, and at least he doesn't have to be there until a week from today. We're still really confused on all other issues, though. The recruiting officer says he's on a BTL list. The CWO also says that the inprocessing at  101 Colonel By will be done AFTER he reports to the MCE. We don't know yet at this point if Selc will be able to come back to Windsor to help pack up the house and get it ready to put up for sale, or not. His course doesn't actually start until August 9th. 

So, yes, we've been in touch finally with the Ottawa folks, but we still don't know a lot. I can get a sanitized copy of the ETP message posted if that would help. We don't understand a lot of the acronmyms (SELC has been a reservist for 13 years, never done a CT/OT before), and it's starting to feel like we're getting different answers depending on who he talks to...


----------



## armyvern (12 Jul 2010)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Not sure what 209.28 is but I believe it has something to do with living accomodations in the base area.



Apparently, it's no movement of F&E will be authorized until accomodations are secured on the Ottawa end.

I'm on leave right now & thus can not access the DIN to confirm the ref; perhaps someone with access can do so.


----------



## aesop081 (12 Jul 2010)

CFAO 209-28



> CFAO 209-28 -- REMOVAL BENEFITS -- MOVEMENT OF DEPENDANTS, AND/OR FURNITURE AND EFFECTS


----------



## Pusser (12 Jul 2010)

CFAO 209-28 is what the Orderly Room uses to move personnel when they make the arrangements (vice Brookfield).  The companion set of regulations to this are Chapter 209 of the Compensation and Benefits Instructions (CBI).  The CBI have replaced most of Volume III of the QR&O.  So, in this case, everytime you see "QR&O" in the CFAO, replace it with "CBI."   Here is a link to Chapt 209 of the CBI:  http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pub/cbi-dra/tc-tm-209-eng.asp.  Unfortunately, there is no internet link currently available for the CFAO and it's too long to post.


----------



## blg (14 Jul 2010)

Hey guys, my husband and I have gotten news that we'll be posted to Petawawa this summer. We have not gotten our official posting message yet (thus all the info I assume is coming with it) but his SQ staff at Gagetown has basically said "yeah, all you guys are going to Petawawa, just so you know".

I have some questions, hope you guys can help me out!

- First, my husband and I have no children as of yet. We are planning to have some within the next 2 years so we're hoping we can get atleast a 3-bedroom single PMQ. A lot of people are telling us that we won't be eligible because we don't have children, but we know a couple there right now who have no children and are in a 3-bedroom semidetached. We want to avoid row housing and apartments at ALL costs. Do you think we're eligible for what we're hoping for or is it all depending on the demand?

- I understand that our move will be paid for, but do we have to pay upfront and CF reimburses us? I just want to be prepared moneywise on moving day.

- Can anyone let me know of their PMQ style and approximate hydro/heating costs? Aswell as recommend what internet/phone/cable services they use? 

- I'm a bit of an interior design junkie. Are we allowed changing the lighting fixtures in the PMQs? I have heard that some have put in ceiling fans. I'd love to put in our chandelier. Home is what you make it right ladies?

- And lastly.. would anyone be willing to email me photos of their PMQ in Petawawa? I hate going by the house plans on the CF website! I'd really love to get an idea of what they really look like on the inside. If you'd like my email address let me know.

Thanks so much for dealing with my multiple questions! I've been browsing through these posts the last couple of days and noticed how nice and helpful everyone is. I hope you can help me out too!


----------



## Sub_Guy (14 Jul 2010)

blg said:
			
		

> - First, my husband and I have no children as of yet. We are planning to have some within the next 2 years so we're hoping we can get atleast a 3-bedroom single PMQ. A lot of people are telling us that we won't be eligible because we don't have children, but we know a couple there right now who have no children and are in a 3-bedroom semidetached. We want to avoid row housing and apartments at ALL costs. Do you think we're eligible for what we're hoping for or is it all depending on the demand?



You will be assigned housing based on your family size, not your family potential.


----------



## Lex Parsimoniae (14 Jul 2010)

blg said:
			
		

> I understand that our move will be paid for, but do we have to pay upfront and CF reimburses us? I just want to be prepared moneywise on moving day.


You will be advanced the money for everything that isn't already paid for by the CF (actually _Brookfield Global Relocation Services _ but that doesn't really matter for the purposes of your question).  You won't need to pay for everything and seek reimbursement.  Keep all your receipts though!


----------



## George Wallace (14 Jul 2010)

What do the PMQs look like in Pet?  What do the PMQs look like in Gagetown?  They are the same design, with the exception that there are no "apartment style" PMQs in Gagetown.  CFB Petawawa has a website you can look at and browse.

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/cfb_petawawa/aboutthebase-eng.html

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/cfb_petawawa/links-eng.html


----------



## PMedMoe (14 Jul 2010)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> You will be assigned housing based on your family size, not your family potential.



And/or availability.  My husband and I (no children) had a three-bedroom house in Pet.  It does pay to be posted in January!   :nod:


----------



## blg (14 Jul 2010)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> What do the PMQs look like in Pet?  What do the PMQs look like in Gagetown?  They are the same design, with the exception that there are no "apartment style" PMQs in Gagetown.  CFB Petawawa has a website you can look at and browse.
> 
> http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/cfb_petawawa/aboutthebase-eng.html
> 
> http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/cfb_petawawa/links-eng.html



Thanks for the links! However I've already looked at the CF websites about PMQs. I was hoping to see real photos of the inside of a PMQ in Pet. The CFB Pet website only shows the outside photo of the house and then a digital floorplan unfortunately.


----------



## blg (14 Jul 2010)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> And/or availability.  My husband and I (no children) had a three-bedroom house in Pet.  It does pay to be posted in January!   :nod:



Oh, good for you guys  
So does the summertime count as a busy posting season? I'm new to all of this and not sure what the "busy" times are.


----------



## blg (14 Jul 2010)

Lex Parsimoniae said:
			
		

> You will be advanced the money for everything that isn't already paid for by the CF (actually _Brookfield Global Relocation Services _ but that doesn't really matter for the purposes of your question).  You won't need to pay for everything and seek reimbursement.  Keep all your receipts though!



Okay, thanks!


----------



## Eye In The Sky (14 Jul 2010)

blg said:
			
		

> Oh, good for you guys
> So does the summertime count as a busy posting season? I'm new to all of this and not sure what the "busy" times are.



Yes.  The summertime is commonly known as APS (Active Posting Season).  This allows folks with kids to not break up school years, etc.

That being said, out-of-sequence posting do happen in the CF.


----------



## Pusser (14 Jul 2010)

The CF moves approximately 15,000 members annually and the vast majority of those moves occur during the summer, so yes, that's a busy time.

PMQs are normally assigned by family size, but you can ask and if a larger one is available, you can normally get it.  You will have to pay the higher rent though.  If you are initially assigned a smaller one, you can ask for a larger one as your family grows, but you may be on the hook for the moving costs to to the new house down the street.   If you can somehow time your family growth with a major rat infestation, your moving costs (a "local" move) will be covered, but don't count on this as a course of action.

Yes you can decorate to a certain degree, but keep in mind that you may be required to return the PMQ to its original state when you leave (this can cost money if professional services are required).  Changing the light fixtures may be possible, but you will need permission from CFHA and they may (in fact, they likely will) insist that they be installed by a licensed electrician and you will likely have to pay for that.  The key is to ask.  If you're thinking that no one would ever know if you just changed them yourself, you're likely right, but are you willing to take that risk?  The CF takes a pretty dim view of people burning down its houses, unless your kids are playing with matches (I'm not kidding, that's actually in the book).  Your tenancy insurance (which is required) won't cover you if the house burns down as a result of you playing with the wiring.  

Good luck.  Moving is such fun! :dileas:


----------



## George Wallace (14 Jul 2010)

blg said:
			
		

> Thanks for the links! However I've already looked at the CF websites about PMQs. I was hoping to see real photos of the inside of a PMQ in Pet. The CFB Pet website only shows the outside photo of the house and then a digital floorplan unfortunately.



As I said, look at a PMQ in Gagetown.  They are all the same.


----------



## blg (14 Jul 2010)

Pusser said:
			
		

> The CF moves approximately 15,000 members annually and the vast majority of those moves occur during the summer, so yes, that's a busy time.
> 
> PMQs are normally assigned by family size, but you can ask and if a larger one is available, you can normally get it.  You will have to pay the higher rent though.  If you are initially assigned a smaller one, you can ask for a larger one as your family grows, but you may be on the hook for the moving costs to to the new house down the street.   If you can somehow time your family growth with a major rat infestation, your moving costs (a "local" move) will be covered, but don't count on this as a course of action.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the info. They would really insist that a licensed electrician install a chandelier even though we know perfectly well how to do it ourselves? Haha, I suppose that they don't want to take any chances.. so that's understandable.

I'll try out the rat infestation plan if we're given a small PMQ and let you know how it goes.


----------



## blg (14 Jul 2010)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> As I said, look at a PMQ in Gagetown.  They are all the same.



Oh, I think you meant to actually go inside one in Gagetown. Sorry, I thought you were telling me to look at photos of one, when there clearly aren't any available on the CF website, haha. My mistake! My husband is in Gagetown right now (he's in the field for the next 2 weeks so no time for him to look around before he's posted) and I'm in Barrie where we're from, so that's not possible. I wish it was, though. I guess we'll just have to be patient and wait to see our own.


----------



## George Wallace (14 Jul 2010)

blg said:
			
		

> Oh, I think you meant to actually go inside one in Gagetown. Sorry, I thought you were telling me to look at photos of one, when there clearly aren't any available on the CF website, haha. My mistake! My husband is in Gagetown right now (he's in the field for the next 2 weeks so no time for him to look around before he's posted) and I'm in Barrie where we're from, so that's not possible. I wish it was, though. I guess we'll just have to be patient and wait to see our own.



Have a look around CFB Borden then.


----------



## Kprice (14 Jul 2010)

Does anyone know how to go about getting our car to the base when we get posted. I don't drive, the car isn't reliable for driving  that far and thought maybe expenses would be paid to tow it with the movers?? Or would this just be my problem to figure out. Thanks for your time.


----------



## George Wallace (14 Jul 2010)

As part of your move, you can ask about having your car shipped.  Ask them when you start your documentation.  

It may also mean that it is a good time for you to invest in a new/newer more reliable vehicle.


----------



## blg (14 Jul 2010)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Yes.  The summertime is commonly known as APS (Active Posting Season).  This allows folks with kids to not break up school years, etc.
> 
> That being said, out-of-sequence posting do happen in the CF.



Oh, okay, makes sense. Thanks.
Did you like Petawawa while you were there?


----------



## MasterInstructor (27 Aug 2010)

I am looking for non-irp move policy, find out about entitlements. Can any body provide a link?

cheers


----------



## MasterInstructor (27 Aug 2010)

Well, it took me a while but here it is for future reference! 

http://hr.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/dgcb/cbi/includes/cbi_coverpage_e.asp?sidesection=6&docid=66


----------



## meni0n (30 Aug 2010)

Can you do a non IRP move when you reach career status? I just got a prohibited posting to Kingston but I am at career status. 

Am I still going to be entitled to IR and seperation allowance?


----------



## Pusser (30 Aug 2010)

meni0n said:
			
		

> Can you do a non IRP move when you reach career status? I just got a prohibited posting to Kingston but I am at career status.
> 
> Am I still going to be entitled to IR and seperation allowance?



No.  The biggest difference between IRP and non-IRP moves is who does the paperwork.  There are no significant differences in benefits and those differences that do exist are being identified and will likely be eliminated in the long run.  

The fact that your move is "prohibited" should not change whether you are on an IRP or non-IRP move.  All "prohibited" means is that the CF is not going to move your family at public expense.  They still have to move you though and IRP should be the ones doing that.  And yes, you should still get IR benefits (which includes Separation Expense)


----------



## meni0n (30 Aug 2010)

Okay thanks that clears it up a bit although how is it determined when it's a prohibited or not posting. The first one I received was restricted then they cancelled that one and did a prohibited although I am at career status and it's not my first posting. Brookfield also told me to talk to the BOR since they won't have anything to do with the move.


----------



## Pusser (31 Aug 2010)

I'm guessing that you are being posted for training.  If this is the case, whether the move is "prohibited" is up to the Training Authority and they usually do it because they intend to move you again relatively soon.  Brookfield probably doesn't want to talk to you because they are assuming you are like all the other trainees.  Talk to you IRP Coordinator (usually a senior NCO or warrant officer in the OR) to get it straightened out.  The IRP Coordinator should also raise this issue with DRBM and ask them to talk to Brookfield (again) to clarify the policy.


----------



## meni0n (31 Aug 2010)

Thanks for the reply Pusser. I called the BOR but the problem is that I got attach posted back here on my COS date and

I was told not to do anything.

The BOR told me to come back and talk to them when the attach posting is finished because I wanted to know how will the 

travel claim work as well as the IR application along with the allowances.


----------



## Pusser (31 Aug 2010)

If I gather correctly, you are now attach posted to the location FROM which you are posted (i.e. you are physically now at the same location as your dependants, household goods and effects -DHG&E).  If that is the case, what the BOR is telling you makes sense - you cannot be on IR and drawing SE while residing in the same location as your DHG&E (posting/attach posting aside).

However, you should still be able to discuss this with the IRP Coord to answer your questions.  I always like to know things well in advance and save the last minute for real problems.


----------



## meni0n (31 Aug 2010)

Oh yea I know I am not entitled to anything here. I am just trying to find out information on what will happen once the attach posting ceases and

I have to proceed to Kingston. I will need the claim, apply for IR and seperation allowance along with SCA I believe. I was trying to find out

how I would go about doing all of that and if even the BOR here would be taking care of that since my new unit is the one taking care of all of my 

administration although I am not sure they know I exist since I haven`t cleared out of here and cleared in at the new unit. You can see

how it can be a little bit confusing as I haven`t technically arrived at my new unit on the COS date, I still have to do the initial move there.


----------



## Pusser (31 Aug 2010)

Why do we do this to people?

Unfortunately, we can't fix this on an on-line forum.  You need to enlist your chain of command to get involved and sort this out.  Your concerns are legitimate and you deserve answers in a timely manner.  You should be applauded for trying to sort this our early so there are no last minute fires to put out.


----------



## CountDC (6 Sep 2010)

as you have never cleared and you were att-post back then the OR you are at should still be doing your administration.

  How long is the att-post?  If it is a year then they most likely won't discuss matters until you are in your last 6 months.  This helps cut down on the "he told me this and now you are telling me something different" rampages due to policy changes. 

If it is a matter that you really need to talk to the coord then call and book an appointment.  If they will not book one then do take it through your chain.  No reason they can not take 5 minutes to calm your nerves and give you a brief outline of how things work there. Never worked anywhere that wouldn't do it.


----------



## FastNFurious (8 Sep 2010)

My husband and I had the same problem.  CFHA said we only qualified for a 2 bedroom since we had no children.  Yet if you look at their rules we qualify for a 2-3 bedroom of course it is up to the Housing manager if you get a 3 bedroom.  The problem with Petawawa is that they have way TO MANY civilians living in PMQ`s there.  When we as posted CF members with a position number are suppose to be priority 1`s.  Worse case you could always contact CMP in Ottawa and complain.  Or even tell your CSM to tell your career manager if you cant get a 3 bedroom to cancell your posting to Pet.  Complain about quality of life.  (it works I know this since a good friend of mine did that and the very next day they were offered a 3 bedroom from CFHA)  Are you currently living in a 3 bedroom home


----------



## aesop081 (8 Sep 2010)

FastNFurious said:
			
		

> Or even tell your CSM to tell your career manager if you cant get a 3 bedroom to cancell your posting to Pet.



 :rofl:


----------



## HItorMiss (8 Sep 2010)

FNF

Are you serious.... No really are you?


----------



## MasterInstructor (8 Sep 2010)

Pusser said:
			
		

> No.  The biggest difference between IRP and non-IRP moves is who does the paperwork.  There are no significant differences in benefits and those differences that do exist are being identified and will likely be eliminated in the long run.



I have found a lot of differences and it caused me to sell my place instead of keeping it because IRP has real estate incentive and non-IRP does not. No marketing incentive, no allowance for paying rent and mortgage at the same time.. etc etc. I wish they were the same benefits...


----------



## Pusser (9 Sep 2010)

FastNFurious said:
			
		

> My husband and I had the same problem.  CFHA said we only qualified for a 2 bedroom since we had no children.  Yet if you look at their rules we qualify for a 2-3 bedroom of course it is up to the Housing manager if you get a 3 bedroom.  The problem with Petawawa is that they have way TO MANY civilians living in PMQ`s there.  When we as posted CF members with a position number are suppose to be priority 1`s.  Worse case you could always contact CMP in Ottawa and complain.  Or even tell your CSM to tell your career manager if you cant get a 3 bedroom to cancell your posting to Pet.  Complain about quality of life.  (it works I know this since a good friend of mine did that and the very next day they were offered a 3 bedroom from CFHA)  Are you currently living in a 3 bedroom home



If you were to have children and then require a larger house, which is not avaiable because it is occupied by a civilian, then the civilian would be given 30 days notice to vacate and you would get your larger house.  The system reacts to needs, but only considers desires.  They will not uproot someone who has moved into a PMQ in accordance with established policy and who has done nothing wrong, just becasue you would like something better.  That's not how the priority system works.


----------



## PMedMoe (9 Sep 2010)

FastNFurious said:
			
		

> of course it is up to the Housing manager if you get a 3 bedroom.



Somehow, I would think that *availability* would have _far_ more to do with it.   :

My husband and I (no children) got a three bedroom when he was posted back to Pet.  Of course, his posting was in January......   ;D


----------



## Armymedic (11 Sep 2010)

Be comforted by the fact that if you have a 2 bedroom PMQ and are now expecting your first child, housing in Pet would do its best to get you into a bigger Q, based upon availability of course.


----------



## astecki (6 Oct 2010)

I am currently in the process of applying for ROTP at RMC.  I've been to the CFRC twice already, and I'm scheduled to go back with transcripts as soon as they are made available to me for a preliminary shakedown.  I'm 28, my highschool marks were pretty good, but I was a fat, lazy git in my early-mid 20's and twice messed up university opportunities.  I've made huge strides in the past two years, dropped from 265lbs to 175lbs, got in wicked shape, got married, completed a post-grad one-year certificate at college (graduated with honours too!).  I know I've always had the ability to perform and perform well in the military, and now I've got the confidence, drive, and motivation (ten wasted years will do that to you!) to do what I wanted to do out of highschool and go to RMC.

Anyway, regardless of that, I had a question that the CFRC couldn't answer; Should I be accepted into RMC, where does my wife fit in?  Specifically, where does she live?  The answer I was provided was, "We're not sure what policy is", and subsequent calls to RMC have netted nothing but voicemails.  I've read online (yeah, how reliable!) everything from, "You can live off campus with your spouse", to "You live in barracks until Thanksgiving weekend, then you can live with your spouse, maybe on campus, maybe not", and so on and so forth.

While I'm waiting for the registrar to call back, does anyone have any insight?

Thanks!


----------



## astecki (6 Oct 2010)

Disregard...I wasn't using the right terms to search, and found a thread on the next page that was pretty recent and had the same, "Maybe this, maybe that" answers I've come to expect!   I'll just have to wait to talk to RMC, I guess!

Good luck to everyone applying...hope to see you there next September!


----------



## ringknocker82 (19 Oct 2010)

Hi,
I hope I will be able to shed a little light onto your situation.  As I am an RMC grad (as my screen name subtly suggests  ;D ), it is my experience that if you are married you both live off campus.  I had friends at RMC in this position and the only time they were expected to live in dorms was for the 'that-which-we-will-not-call-hazing' period of first year.  If my memory serves me, they still had to maintain a dorm room for inspection and other purposes, but i believe this is subsidized because it is considered a second dwelling.  I'm not a rude person, therefore, I never asked about money, so I cannot speak on the subject of how pay differs, but I imagine it does. Hope this was of some help!  And FYI, not all ring knockers are bad guys (or gals in my case)  
 :yellow:


----------



## top4u20 (10 Jan 2011)

Hello,,,

Just to add to this and pose another question.

I decided to move and spouse to our final place of residence approx 1600km from my posting in Ottawa in 2009. In 2010 I got posted to the West coast and decided not to go on IR for several reasons. Anyway, has anyone heard of going on IR after the fact? It was not actually offered to me in the first place (not on posting message) so not officially declined. Just wondering if I can go on IR now or would I have to wait until the next posting?
Thanks


----------



## caocao (10 Jan 2011)

I don't think you can.  The info below was taken from the CMP site.

14.5.06 Limitations - future relocation benefits
When an early IPR relocation is exercised, CF members are no longer eligible to further IPR relocation benefits or reimbursements during their current terms of service, even if future postings occur.

CF members who are posted after exercising their early IPR and do not move their (D)HG&E to their new place of duty are not entitled to:

IR benefits; 
SA benefits; 
PLD; and 
LTA. 

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pd/rel-rei/aps-paa-2009/chapter-chapitre-14-eng.asp#art-14-05-06


----------



## Pusser (10 Jan 2011)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> I am well aware of the rules when a service member decides to move to the new location alone.   What I want to know is this, what happens when one member of a service couple decides to take the F&E to the new location while leaving the other member at the old location.   Would the member who is left behind be entitled to IR benefits?
> 
> I have read through the orders and I can't seem to find anything written about the subject anywhere.



Married Service Couples do not go on IR.  However, when an MSC is split up (due to the exigencies of the service) the member who is separated from the F&E is entitled to separation expenses, LTA, etc.


----------



## PMedMoe (10 Jan 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Married Service Couples do not go on IR.  However, when an MSC is split up (due to the exigencies of the service) the member who is separated from the F&E is entitled to separation expenses, LTA, etc.



I beg to differ.  I was on IR for my posting to Ottawa.  I had to request it from my CM.

From the DCBA Aide Memoire:



> or is *part of a service couple that has been posted apart* or has been posted to a new location in Canada and has been granted Imposed Restriction (IR) status


----------



## top4u20 (10 Jan 2011)

Thanks caocao for the reply,

Only thing is I did not take an early IPR as I miss informed  the audience. The IPR was my decison and I did not use military funds for it..I paid the move since I was too many years from retirement to take advantage of it.


----------



## PMedMoe (10 Jan 2011)

topo4u20 said:
			
		

> Thanks caocao for the reply,
> 
> Only thing is I did not take an early IPR as I miss informed  the audience. The IPR was my decison and I did not use military funds for it..I paid the move since I was too many years from retirement to take advantage of it.



You may still not be able to request IR as it was your choice.  Check with your clerks/OR.


----------



## Pusser (11 Jan 2011)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I beg to differ.  I was on IR for my posting to Ottawa.  I had to request it from my CM.
> 
> From the DCBA Aide Memoire:



It looks like IR, smells like IR and is in fact, often mistakenly called IR, but is not in fact IR - that's from the folks who actually work at DCBA.  I'm surprised you had to request it from your CM.  What happens if he/she says no?  Does this force your spouse's CM to then move your spouse with you?


----------



## armyvern (11 Jan 2011)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I beg to differ.  I was on IR for my posting to Ottawa.  I had to request it from my CM.
> 
> From the DCBA Aide Memoire:



MSCs are not considered IR. They are considered to be Restricted Posted, but not Imposed Restricted (Imposed R implies a choice the mbr and his/her family made to be separated which is NOT the case with MSCs).

My CM cut me a message that actually said "Imposed Restriction" and we all went WTF!!?? The message was then recut for a "restricted posting". I've done 4 now, and only that 1 message (in error) was cut for an "IR" posting.

There was a message cut this past spring by NDHQ clarifying that MSC were _*not*_ "IR", but rather just "restricted".


----------



## armyvern (11 Jan 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> It looks like IR, smells like IR and is in fact, often mistakenly called IR, but is not in fact IR - that's from the folks who actually work at DCBA.  I'm surprised you had to request it from your CM.  What happens if he/she says no?  Does this force your spouse's CM to then move your spouse with you?



The having to request it bit comes from IRPP ... they do it to me every single time that I am posted ... I tell them "My CM will NOT cut a message saying that "Imposed Restriction Posting is authorized" because I am 1/2 of a MSC and thus it does not apply. I then point out that my message says "Restricted" and that is good enough. The last lady that I dealt with at IRPP didn't believe that to be the case and refused to begin my claim without an "IR authorized" message from my CM ... what she did get from me instead was a copy of that widely circulated email from DCBA stating that there was NO such thing in the case of MSCs ... then my claim got done --- very quickly.


----------



## PMedMoe (11 Jan 2011)

Both of my messages stated Imposed Restriction.  I don't see how it could be considered a "choice" when one member is posted and the other is not.  At any rate, it doesn't make a difference as it amounts to the same thing, IMHO.


----------



## Pusser (11 Jan 2011)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Both of my messages stated Imposed Restriction.  I don't see how it could be considered a "choice" when one member is posted and the other is not.



The lack of choice is exactly the point ArmyVern was making.  An MSC has no choice in the matter, whereas an IR is only granted when the member chooses it.  As for what your message said, I find it hard to believe that a posting message would ever have an error... ;D


----------



## Halifax Tar (31 Jan 2011)

Looks like I am being posted to CFB Kingston during the 2011 APS. My family (mom and dad) minus my PNOK live there. I intend to go IR (Not sure of the process but my CoC has informed careers of my intention), would I be allowed to room with my parents ? What if my parents want to charge rent ? Have the rules changed where you must stay in SQs if available ? Would it be wiser to go out on the economy if available ?

We have himed and hawed about this and it looks like a good way to save $ and throw it against our mortgage here in Halifax, by staying with my parents.

Oh and I know the refs are available on the DIN/DWAN, but I wont have a log in for that until next week, as I am just coming off post deployment leave and the IT folks say it will take that long to get set up.


----------



## clericalchronicals (31 Jan 2011)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Looks like I am being posted to CFB Kingston during the 2011 APS. My family (mom and dad) minus my PNOK live there. I intend to go IR (Not sure of the process but my CoC has informed careers of my intention), would I be allowed to room with my parents ? What if my parents want to charge rent ? Have the rules changed where you must stay in SQs if available ? Would it be wiser to go out on the economy if available ?
> 
> We have himed and hawed about this and it looks like a good way to save $ and throw it against our mortgage here in Halifax, by staying with my parents.
> 
> Oh and I know the refs are available on the DIN/DWAN, but I wont have a log in for that until next week, as I am just coming off post deployment leave and the IT folks say it will take that long to get set up.



1) You can stay with your parents and receive IR benefits as long as they are approved by your CM.  You are entitled to a certain amount, I will verify and repost the exact details tomorrow for you.

2) The process is simple, there is an application form to be filled out for IR benefits which goes up to your career manager, the form has questions regarding why you are applying for IR authority and that gets scanned and sent up for approval to the CM.

3) You still owe me a beer from the T-Dot days.   :camo:

Cheers!


----------



## Halifax Tar (31 Jan 2011)

clericalchronicals said:
			
		

> 1) You can stay with your parents and receive IR benefits as long as they are approved by your CM.  You are entitled to a certain amount, I will verify and repost the exact details tomorrow for you.
> 
> 2) The process is simple, there is an application form to be filled out for IR benefits which goes up to your career manager, the form has questions regarding why you are applying for IR authority and that gets scanned and sent up for approval to the CM.
> 
> ...



Sounds like a plan my friend! And I owe you more than "a" beer lol


----------



## clericalchronicals (1 Feb 2011)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Sounds like a plan my friend! And I owe you more than "a" beer lol



So here is the answer from "the gods" in Ottawa;

Good Morning;

 In actuality, he has an entitlement to $540.00/month provided his parents submit a monthly receipt, for the used of private accn, IAW Chap 2 Sect 3 para 3.3 of our Aide Memoire.  Without receipts the mbr wouldn't have entitlement to accn reimbursement> ...> ...> that's his choice.  I will make the assumption this mbr is married, and if not this doesn't apply to mbrs without dependants and you will have to call me to discuss.

 If he is married/common-law or has dependants, he is entitled entitled to 65% of the NJC Travel Directive dinner meal rate as per the same para above.

 If he is married, I would point out there is no need to request IR from the CM, as he is on unaccompanied move benefits for 6 months.  If, nearing the 6 month period the house hasn't sold, he may want to see if he qualifies for IR/SE under one of the approved criteria of CBI 209.997.

There is your answer...as official as it's gonna get.


----------



## jwtg (19 Apr 2011)

Hey,

So to revive an old thread, I was wondering if anyone has a source they can point to for info with regards to being married while at RMC?  I applied only for Civi U and was offered RMC, so now I'm trying to figure out how these things are all going to work out (I'm a little older than most 1st years...).  Or, even better, does anyone have a number/e-mail address of someone I can contact to ask about the norms for married OCdts at RMC?  

I appreciate everyone's input here, but I'm about to make a major life decision and I'd like to speak to someone at RMC in order to make as informed a decision as possible.  

I DID check the RMC website and the only 'contact' page I found didn't have any indications as to who to contact with general inquiries.  Just a list of numbers for Deans and the Principle!
If anyone can point me in the right direction, I'd greatly appreciate it.  I'm sure my significant other would too!  

EDIT: Lucked out and hit a link that indicated 'General Inquiries.'


----------



## ringknocker82 (19 Apr 2011)

@jwtg - Try this number: 613-541-6000 ext. 6953, its the liaison office.  This is the number to call for general inquiries and if they cannot answer your question, they should be able to direct you to someone who can.  Are you doing the Jr or Sr RMC plan?  I know that if you're married at RMC, you are allowed to live out, but I have no idea how it works at CMR.  Hope this helps a bit.


----------



## wannabe SF member (21 Apr 2011)

One of my flightmate was married when he came in, he had to live in until the end of FYOP after which time he was allowed to clear out and live in a PMQ, he was also paid deduction free due to him being married. PM me if you have some specific questions and I can ask him.


----------



## PMedMoe (21 Apr 2011)

Inky said:
			
		

> he was also paid *deduction free* due to him being married.



Keep in mind, those deductions are _only_ rations and quarters.  Taxes, CPP, EI, etc will still be deducted.


----------



## Halifax Tar (31 May 2011)

High Folks, 

I have searched for COS date and it turns up little pertaining to my question, which follows:

My COS is 11 Aug 11. Is that the day I report for duty at my gaining unit ? Or the day I leave my loosing unit and begin travel to my destination ? 

The reason I as is, Brookfield is telling people that their COS date is the date they begin to travel to their destination. This is confusing to me as I always believed it is actually the date one shows up for work at the gaining unit. 

Any help and references anyone can provide would be much appreciated as I have searched the DIN high and low for a definition of COS date and RFD date. 

Thanks in advance, 

Halifax Tar


----------



## 211RadOp (31 May 2011)

Brookfield is correct.  The COS (Change of Strenght) is the day you belong to your new unit.  Your RFD date is your COS plus any travel time to get from where you are to your new unit.


----------



## Halifax Tar (31 May 2011)

211RadOp said:
			
		

> Brookfield is correct.  The COS (Change of Strenght) is the day you belong to your new unit.  Your RFD date is your COS plus any travel time to get from where you are to your new unit.



My RFD was not listed on my post msg. So am I to assume that will be worked out after my HHT ?


----------



## aesop081 (31 May 2011)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> My RFD was not listed on my post msg. So am I to assume that will be worked out after my HHT ?



You RFD is worked out between the CO of your current unit and the CO of your new unit. This will allow a door-to-door move that accomodates your situation. Your RFD can be moved to anywhere between 30 days prior to COS and 30 days after.


----------



## Pusser (31 May 2011)

211RadOp said:
			
		

> Brookfield is correct.  The COS (Change of Strenght) is the day you belong to your new unit.  Your RFD date is your COS plus any travel time to get from where you are to your new unit.



Sorry to be blunt, but Brookfield is not correct in this case and neither are you.  The Change of Strength (COS) Date is one of the most misunderstood things in the CF.  The COS Date is simply a spot on the calendar where you cease to belong to one unit for administrative purposes and begin to belong to another.  In simple and somewhat ghoulish terms, it determines who gets stuck organizing your funeral if you die en route to your new location (heaven forbid, knock on wood, etc).

Your Report for Duty (RFD) Date is not in the Posting Instruction, but is actually a more pertinent detail. It is negotiated between the gaining and losing COs to any point within 30 days either side of the COS Date.  Any point outside of this 60 day window requires a new posting message.  In a standard posting situation (i.e. there are exceptions), once the two units have agreed to an RFD Date, then Brookfield used RFD Date  to determine the schedule for packing, loading, starting travel etc. 

Keep in mind that you also can have input into the RFD Date.  For example if you're in a situation where you can break a lease at COS -20 without penalty, then it's in everybody's best interests to move your RFD date forward and move you well in advance of COS.  This is possible and should be encouraged.  You could even have the move completed before COS.  By the same token, if moving the RFD to COS +20 means your kids can finish school before you leave, that makes sense as well.  Brookfield shouldn't care one way or the other what your COS Date is.  They only need to know the RFD Date.  PM me if you're still having issues.


----------



## Northern Ranger (31 May 2011)

You sir, hit the nail on the head!  I think something like this should be posted in the IRP booklet as most can find it or don't know of the 245.



			
				Pusser said:
			
		

> Sorry to be blunt, but Brookfield is not correct in this case and neither are you.  The Change of Strength (COS) Date is one of the most misunderstood things in the CF.  The COS Date is simply a spot on the calendar where you cease to belong to one unit for administrative purposes and begin to belong to another.  In simple and somewhat ghoulish terms, it determines who gets stuck organizing your funeral if you die en route to your new location (heaven forbid, knock on wood, etc).
> 
> Your Report for Duty (RFD) Date is not in the Posting Instruction, but is actually a more pertinent detail. It is negotiated between the gaining and losing COs to any point within 30 days either side of the COS Date.  Any point outside of this 60 day window requires a new posting message.  In a standard posting situation (i.e. there are exceptions), once the two units have agreed to an RFD Date, then Brookfield used RFD Date  to determine the schedule for packing, loading, starting travel etc.
> 
> Keep in mind that you also can have input into the RFD Date.  For example if you're in a situation where you can break a lease at COS -20 without penalty, then it's in everybody's best interests to move your RFD date forward and move you well in advance of COS.  This is possible and should be encouraged.  You could even have the move completed before COS.  By the same token, if moving the RFD to COS +20 means your kids can finish school before you leave, that makes sense as well.  Brookfield shouldn't care one way or the other what your COS Date is.  They only need to know the RFD Date.  PM me if you're still having issues.


----------



## Zoomie (31 May 2011)

I guess I better see if my IRP rep did any of this - I already have a pack,load, move date and I know my two chain's have not talked.


----------



## navymich (31 May 2011)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> I guess I better see if my IRP rep did any of this - I already have a pack,load, move date and I know my two chain's have not talked.



My chains don't seem concerned.  We also have pack/load/move dates (based on our possession date) and they just want to know what dates I'll be where.  It doesn't even appear it is going much higher up then my direct supervisors, current and new.


----------



## aesop081 (31 May 2011)

airmich said:
			
		

> My chains don't seem concerned.  We also have pack/load/move dates (based on our possession date) and they just want to know what dates I'll be where.  It doesn't even appear it is going much higher up then my direct supervisors, current and new.



 That both your units were unconcerned is great but sometimes its not that simple ( like when the new job requires specialized training with set course dates, for example).

Both direct supervisors would have to have sought approval from higher. I'm going through this myself....well........i will as soon as my posting message/IRP situation gets unfucked.


----------



## Zoomie (31 May 2011)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> That both your units were unconcerned is great but sometimes its not that simple



Every new job that I have been to requires "specialized training" - I just happen to already know when that course starts and have tailored my move to fit that requirement.  Whether I am sitting around down there or up here doesn't really matter to any degree.  Like Mich said, unconcerned supervisors are a good sign.

I hope your file gets fixed soon C.A.


----------



## Scoobs (31 May 2011)

I'm currently going through a posting myself.  As other poster's stated, the RFD is way more important than the COS date.  As long as your RFD date is close to your possession date (if buying) or move in date (if renting), they are okay with it.  They will tell you a date that you should change your RFD to, but remember, it is your move and if you are close to what they want, they won't give much of an argument.  I changed my RFD date to 6 days earlier than my COS just by putting a memo up.  Normally an email from your losing unit Chief to the gaining unit Chief will do the trick.  The formal approval does come from CO to CO.  Once I understood how the relocation leave would work, I decided to change my RFD to one day earlier.  Brookfield just said, "okay".

Just so everyone can understand, here is the thing about relocation leave as I did my research by reading the CF Leave Policy and speaking with my unit's Chief Clerk.  Plus, some of my pers who are posted asked me these quesitons:

1. You are entitled to 5 days "special leave - relocation" at the losing unit.  The CO must, key word, must grant the 5 days.  He/she would have to justify to Ottawa why the leave was denied.  This rarely happens.  Therefore, if your losing unit CO denies the 5 days, then there will be a major issue.  Note that the 5 days is counted only against working days.  Thus, weekends and holidays do NOT count against the 5 days.  Also, the 5 days can be broken, i.e. they don't have to be taken continously.  The 5th day is always your clean/closing date on your old home.  Then count backwards 5 working days and then you have your entire dates for leave.  Note that your travel day does NOT count as one of the leave days as you are technically considered on duty.  Your travel day can be on a weekend or stat holiday, as is the case for me.

2. You are entitled to 5 days at the gaining unit.  The gaining unit CO approves this leave.  Just like at the losing unit, the gaining unit CO must give you the 5 days and the other stuff above applies.  The problem here is when this leave begins.  This leave does not have to be taken when you move into your new home, but I highly recommend that it is so that you can properly settle into your new home.  Your RFD date should NOT count against one of the leave days.  Depending on the unit, the unit may actually want you to report in uniform into work and thus this is considered a duty day.  Most units that I have been to use their common sense and just have you phone into your boss to let them know that you are okay and arrived at the new location.  I will be using my closing date on my new home as my RFD and then start the 5 days of leave on my unpack date.  This is of course if my F and E actually gets moved into my new home on my closing date.

Note that annual leave cannot be on a leave pass for special.  All annual, just like normal, is up to your boss' approval.

Hope this helps.


----------



## aesop081 (31 May 2011)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> Every new job that I have been to requires "specialized training" -



Not in my case, my last 3 postings did not require any.


----------



## navymich (31 May 2011)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Not in my case, my last 3 postings did not require any.



Because you're already special.    And ditto to what Zoomie said, hope all of your stuff gets sorted out soon.


Scoobs, thank you for the details on the leave.  Although it is nice to have unconcerned supervisors in some instances, in others it would be nice to have a bit more guidance, regardless of what I know or profess to know.


----------



## aesop081 (31 May 2011)

Correction to my last, 2 out of my last 3 postings did not require specialized training. One was post wings course and had some hard dates attached to it if i was unwilling to wait 6+ months for the next one.


----------



## Zoomie (1 Jun 2011)

Thanks Scoobs - good to know.  Albeit in my case, my supervisor really doesn't care what I do.  I am returning to work soon off PATA and won't be in a position to get my instructor category back in the short time that I will be on duty.  So in all reality he doesn't want to see me around at work unless I am doing some admin - I plan on flying as much as I can and taking short days when I can't fly.  On the other end I have a month until my course starts, so again, they don't want to see me until about two weeks before course start date.


----------



## captloadie (1 Jun 2011)

airmich said:
			
		

> My chains don't seem concerned.  We also have pack/load/move dates *(based on our possession date)* and they just want to know what dates I'll be where.  It doesn't even appear it is going much higher up then my direct supervisors, current and new.



The highlighted portion has been a rather large factor in recent years. People were denied IL&M because their RFD and travel days didn't match the timeline for delivery of F&E. Individuals were told by IRP what reporting date they had to request, instead of it being the other way around. It was so bad for awhile, members were told that they wouldn't be reimbursed additional IL&M if their closing date and new possession date didn't correspond to the the times it took for the travel days and/or F&E to arrive. It was considered a personal decision to buy a house where the possession date fell outside "their" policy. I believe they sorted this out last year via a Canforgen, but I'd be interested to find out if members run into issues again this APS.

As for the relocation leave issue, it isn't a MUST for the CO to grant. He can deny the requested dates for a myriad of reasons, just like any other leave he signs off on. The policy just states he shouldn't without justification. I'm sure plenty of members can tell stories of being put on exercise/DOM OP/traingin immediately upon arrival and given the five days later.


----------



## Halifax Tar (1 Jun 2011)

Scoobs said:
			
		

> 1. You are entitled to 5 days "special leave - relocation" at the losing unit.  The CO must, key word, must grant the 5 days.  He/she would have to justify to Ottawa why the leave was denied.  This rarely happens.  Therefore, if your losing unit CO denies the 5 days, then there will be a major issue.  Note that the 5 days is counted only against working days.  Thus, weekends and holidays do NOT count against the 5 days.  Also, the 5 days can be broken, i.e. they don't have to be taken continously.  The 5th day is always your clean/closing date on your old home.  Then count backwards 5 working days and then you have your entire dates for leave.  Note that your travel day does NOT count as one of the leave days as you are technically considered on duty.  Your travel day can be on a weekend or stat holiday, as is the case for me.
> 
> 2. You are entitled to 5 days at the gaining unit.  The gaining unit CO approves this leave.  Just like at the losing unit, the gaining unit CO must give you the 5 days and the other stuff above applies.  The problem here is when this leave begins.  This leave does not have to be taken when you move into your new home, but I highly recommend that it is so that you can properly settle into your new home.  Your RFD date should NOT count against one of the leave days.  Depending on the unit, the unit may actually want you to report in uniform into work and thus this is considered a duty day.  Most units that I have been to use their common sense and just have you phone into your boss to let them know that you are okay and arrived at the new location.  I will be using my closing date on my new home as my RFD and then start the 5 days of leave on my unpack date.  This is of course if my F and E actually gets moved into my new home on my closing date.



As a member going on my posting under "Imposed Restriction" I would hazard a guess that the leave at both ends is shorter, as Im not moving my F&E and NOK with me correct ? I looked in the CF leave manual and I dosnt specify.


----------



## Halifax Tar (1 Jun 2011)

Thanks for all your help guys. I figured it out after reading all your posts. My COS is 11 July but my RFD is 11 Aug so 11 Aug I show up for work ready to rock'n'roll. 

All the best!


----------



## PMedMoe (1 Jun 2011)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> As a member going on my posting under "Imposed Restriction" I would hazard a guess that the leave at both ends is shorter, as Im not moving my F&E and NOK with me correct ? I looked in the CF leave manual and I dosnt specify.



For IR, the CO (gaining and losing) _may_ authorize two days each.  It's under Chapter 5, Special Leave (Relocation) Table 1.  Right after para 5.11.11.


----------



## Halifax Tar (1 Jun 2011)

Thanks Moe!  :nod:


----------



## McG (1 Jun 2011)

Scoobs said:
			
		

> You are entitled to 5 days "special leave - relocation" at the losing unit.


This is true for a move within the continent where movement of HG&E is authorized.  It is not neccesarily true for people in other circumstances.  The breakdown is 3 days personal admin and 2 days HG&E.



			
				Scoobs said:
			
		

> You are entitled to 5 days at the gaining unit.


This also is true for a move within the continent where movement of HG&E is authorized and is also not neccesarily true for people in other circumstances.  The breakdown is the same as on the other end: 3 days personal admin and 2 days HG&E.



			
				Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> As a member going on my posting under "Imposed Restriction" I would hazard a guess that the leave at both ends is shorter, as Im not moving my F&E and NOK with me correct ? I looked in the CF leave manual and I dosnt specify.


It does.  It indicates 2 days personal admin on either end.


----------



## Pusser (1 Jun 2011)

Scoobs said:
			
		

> I will be using my closing date on my new home as my RFD and then start the 5 days of leave on my unpack date.  This is of course if my F and E actually gets moved into my new home on my closing date.
> 
> Note that annual leave cannot be on a leave pass for special.  All annual, just like normal, is up to your boss' approval.



The RFD Date is the day youi actually show up for work, in uniform, ready to start.  Your RFD Date shout NOT be the closing date of your new home.  How can you possibly put in a day's work at your new job, when you will spending a good chunk of that day at the lawyer's office, picking up keys, etc?  Remember that Relocation Leave is specifically designed for performing the administration of moving into your new home.  Closing the deal is part of that.

Once you arrive at your new location, the gaps between the arrival of your F&E and your RFD need to be covered somehow.  You can use any combination of Relocation Leave, Annual Leave or work to fill those gaps that works for you.  Remember that if you are arriving on time, the day you arrive is a travel (i.e. duty) day and is not counted as anything else.

As long as all days are consecutive,m there is absolutely no reason that Annual Leave and Special Leave - Relocation cannot be on the same leave pass.  In fact, depending on the circumstances, it is entirely feasible that a single leave pass could include, Annual, Weekend, Short and a variety of forms of Special Leave all on the same document.  Why kill another tree?


----------



## Scoobs (1 Jun 2011)

Captloadie stated, "As for the relocation leave issue, it isn't a MUST for the CO to grant. He can deny the requested dates for a myriad of reasons, just like any other leave he signs off on. The policy just states he shouldn't without justification. I'm sure plenty of members can tell stories of being put on exercise/DOM OP/traingin immediately upon arrival and given the five days later".


Actually, the CO must give the leave and your post itself states this.  Never did I say that the CO must give it right when you move into your new home, but I said that he must give it.  You agree with this by saying, "... and given the five days later."  I did state that the CF Leave Policy Manual states that it can be given in non-consecutive days.  Believe me, prior to giving anybody advice, I do my research and give them the correct answer.  I do this for all questions that are asked of me by my pers if I don't immediately know the policy.  I don't want to give false hope to my pers or others on this site by giving them duff info.


----------



## Scoobs (1 Jun 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> The RFD Date is the day youi actually show up for work, in uniform, ready to start.  Your RFD Date shout NOT be the closing date of your new home.  How can you possibly put in a day's work at your new job, when you will spending a good chunk of that day at the lawyer's office, picking up keys, etc?  Remember that Relocation Leave is specifically designed for performing the administration of moving into your new home.  Closing the deal is part of that.
> 
> Once you arrive at your new location, the gaps between the arrival of your F&E and your RFD need to be covered somehow.  You can use any combination of Relocation Leave, Annual Leave or work to fill those gaps that works for you.  Remember that if you are arriving on time, the day you arrive is a travel (i.e. duty) day and is not counted as anything else.
> 
> As long as all days are consecutive,m there is absolutely no reason that Annual Leave and Special Leave - Relocation cannot be on the same leave pass.  In fact, depending on the circumstances, it is entirely feasible that a single leave pass could include, Annual, Weekend, Short and a variety of forms of Special Leave all on the same document.  Why kill another tree?



I am telling pers what is reality out there, not what it should be.  I agree that it is silly that we must make our RFD so close to the close of the new home, but this is what Brookfield is telling everybody, including my pers being posted and me.  Brookfield wanted my RFD to be on the day of my unpack.  By your reasoning, I would have to go to work and leave my wife to supervise the unpack all by herself.  This would not work.  Like I said, I have had and will have reasonable bosses who use logic and allow(ed) me to "report for duty" by phoning in and saying that I am safe and sound in the new area.  Then I carry out all other necessary business on that day.  It is nice to say what it should be in theory, but I am only telling everybody what it is like in reality.  The real kicker here is that why does Brookfield and ultimately DND tell us to have the closing dates for both the old and new homes on the same days?  How is this realistically possible?  Yet, this is what Brookfield is telling our CF members due to direction from DND.  I asked my Brookfield rep this question and the answer that I got was, this is just the policy!

The policy at every unit that I have been at, so I assumed that this was the CF's direction, was that special leave needed to be on different leave passes than annual.  If not, great, I agree that we shouldn't kill so many trees!

To everybody, remember, each person's move situation will be different.  Instead of finding holes to poke in my posting, why not ask questions about your specific situation and then there are more than enough pers on this site that have the knowledge to help you.


----------



## aesop081 (1 Jun 2011)

Scoobs said:
			
		

> but I am only telling everybody what it is like in reality.



"reality" in so far as it has applied to you.




> The real kicker here is that why does Brookfield and ultimately DND tell us to have the closing dates for both the old and new homes on the same days?



They do not say that.



> Yet, this is what Brookfield is telling our CF members due to direction from DND.



If BGRS is saying that, it is not due to direction from DND.



> I asked my Brookfield rep this question and the answer that I got was, this is just the policy!



That answer is incorrect.



> was that special leave needed to be on different leave passes than annual.



This is not Cf policy. I have many leave passes containing both.



> Instead of finding holes to poke in my posting, why not ask questions about your specific situation



Because my situation is unique from everyone else and besides, my situation is nobody's buisness. If i have questions, i know where to go ask and where to look. If you are unhappy with the reaction your posts get, it is a simple fix.............


----------



## Scoobs (1 Jun 2011)

CDN Aviator,

First, my response was not directed towards you.  To say that "reality in so far as it has applied to you" is not correct.  I actually read the IRP Directive.  I actually read the leave policies.  I actually ask and get responses in email from the Brookfield rep so as to cover myself if Brookfield was to deny a claim. So, yes, this is reality for me.  However, I will not be treated differently as compared to other pers, so this is the same as other pers.  I posted info based on the typical posting, a sell of a home, a purchase of a new home, and then a move.  Yes, your situation is more than likely different, but this does not preclude you or anyone from learning from what I or other posters have went through in regards to Brookfield and some of the silly IRP regulations.

Also, yes, my Brookfield rep told me to my face that DND wants us to close on both homes on the same day.  Why would I make this stuff up?  

Also, note that I never stated the CF policy was that annual and special leave did not go on the same leave pass.  Read my post again.  I stated that my unit's policy was.  Whether or not this is correct is not for me to decide (nor you), I only stated what happens.

Also, if your situation is nobody's business, then why are you even reading, yet posting, comments on this thread?  You'll note that I don't post that often, but have been a long time member of Army.ca.  This is because I would like to offer my opinion/advice on issues, but more than not, I see people getting ripped to shreads just because they may say something and the reader doesn't actually read the exact words, interprets what they want to hear, and then throws a fit via posts.


----------



## aesop081 (1 Jun 2011)

Scoobs said:
			
		

> Why would I make this stuff up?



I'm sorry, i was not clear. I am saying that BGRS is making it up. I have had my share of DND moves and have yet to close old and new homes on the same day.


----------



## PO2FinClk (21 Jun 2011)

All very good, but reading the actual reference would saved some time.

A-PM-245 Chap 7 Annex A Appendix 4
DIN: http://hr.dwan.dnd.ca/DHRIM/mhrrp/ch07/engraph/CH07A04_e.asp

Bottom line, and as per CFIRP Policy: "The first day of TNL is normally the Change of Strength (COS) date unless there is a change of Report For Duty (RFD) date approved by the losing and gaining COs."

Anything more would be belabouring.


----------



## East Coaster (6 Oct 2011)

Hello, I need some advice...Here is my situation:
-Posted to Victoria and went on an HHT (House Hunting Trip) in July
-HHT unsuccessful
-I realized that going to Victoria on IR (Imposed Restriction) was the way I would have to go for at least 6 months or more so I looked for accommodations for myself.  I found a small one bedroom apartment close to work and within the set amount of $1600, it actually was $1500 per month.
-As per BC regs I put down half a month's rent ($700) to secure the place until I showed up and started living in it.
...All well and good right?  
Here is the kicker
-The posting was cancelled by the career shop in Ottawa due to a myriad of reasons that I had no active role in.  I did not get the news until a week before I was to drive across the country.  I had everything in place for a successful IR period, kids OK, finances in order, wife OK and had a visit schedule, etc..
My question is, How do I get that $700 back, or, is it just lost?  If I have to go through Brookfield I think I will just forget about it because they are obstinant.  Any advice is welcome.  I anticipate a fight with whomever I ask for the money back from.


----------



## PMedMoe (6 Oct 2011)

So the $700 was not refundable from the landlord?  Normally, if you had occupied the apartment and then moved out, the landlord is obligated to reimburse you the money if there is no significant damage to the apartment.  Since you never actually moved in, I assume that this would be the case.

More info here:  http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/co/reho/yogureho/fash/fash_002.cfm

And possibly here:  http://apartmentguide.ca/Renters/deposit.asp


----------



## Bluebulldog (6 Oct 2011)

Aha. At last one where I can weigh in with my civvy experience.

Since your $700 was placed as a deposit against a rental agreement where the terms were never met, you should simply draft a letter to Brookfield, and they should refund it. Their admin may take a bit of time, but they are a rather well run organization, and it shouldn't take long.


----------



## CountDC (6 Oct 2011)

Bluebulldog said:
			
		

> Their admin may take a bit of time, but they are a rather well run organization, and it shouldn't take long.



 ??? :


----------



## Bluebulldog (6 Oct 2011)

CountDC said:
			
		

> ??? :



I know, I know. Actually BPM are a nationwide company, and they rank among the highest for residential tenancies, particularly with tenant satisfaction. I'm sure there are folks who have their issues with them....


----------



## East Coaster (6 Oct 2011)

OK, So here's what I am leaning towards doing.  I will send a registered letter to BGRS (Brookfield Global Relocation Services) explaining my issue and requesting their support and reimbursement of the $700.  

Does this sound like a plan?


----------



## PMedMoe (6 Oct 2011)

I really don't see why you don't try the landlord or rental company first.  IIRC, they can't legally keep a security deposit.  Or did you already try them?


----------



## Good2Golf (6 Oct 2011)

> Their admin may take a bit of time, but *they are a rather well run organization*, and it shouldn't take long.



I'm intrigued --  compared to...?


To the OP, I'd say as have others, talk to the landlord first...they can probably fill the apt no probs given the vacancy (or lack thereof) rate in Vic.


Regards
G2G


----------



## aesop081 (6 Oct 2011)

East Coaster said:
			
		

> Does this sound like a plan?



No. The half-month you paid is not to secure the place, it is the damage deposit. The landlord should be reimbursing that to you when you cease to occupy the property ( assuming no damage). If you had a signed lease, there are penalties for breaking it ( 3 month's rent in some provinces) and THAT is also covered by IRP.

I'm a landlord in BC.........


----------



## Bluebulldog (7 Oct 2011)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> I'm intrigued --  compared to...?



Brookfield Property management is "rather well run" in comparisom to other residential property management companies. I however can't comment on their relocation services company. When East Coaster mentioned "Brookfield" I assumed he meant that they were the landlord, not the company handling the relocation, with a separate landlord being involved.

I'd advocate for contacting the landlord directly, and dealing with them.


----------



## PMedMoe (7 Oct 2011)

Ahh, well then, that's different.

In the CF, Brookfield Global Relocation Services is the company that does our moves.


----------



## Bluebulldog (7 Oct 2011)

Indeed.

As a reservist, I've not had to go through a relocation.

I am however a Property Manager civvy side.


----------



## Good2Golf (7 Oct 2011)

Seen.  

As PMedMoe says, BGRS in this context is the civilian company that is mandated to provide relcation services to CF members on posting that in years past were provided by CF clerks.  Starting with Royal Lepage Relocation Services then by Brookfield Global Relocation Services, the military posting/relocation services were devolved through the alternate services delivery (ASD) trend that began in the 90's.  Apprently, the ASD intent for relocation services was to provide BETTER services for LESS MONEY.  "Some" have found that their "mileage may have varied" with the actual services provided when compared to when the military provided its own services.  


Regards
G2G


----------



## Pusser (7 Oct 2011)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Seen.
> 
> As PMedMoe says, BGRS in this context is the civilian company that is mandated to provide relcation services to CF members on posting that in years past were provided by CF clerks.  Starting with Royal Lepage Relocation Services then by Brookfield Global Relocation Services, the military posting/relocation services were devolved through the alternate services delivery (ASD) trend that began in the 90's.  Apprently, the ASD intent for relocation services was to provide BETTER services for LESS MONEY.  "Some" have found that their "mileage may have varied" with the actual services provided when compared to when the military provided its own services.
> 
> ...



In answer to the OP's question, your first course of action is to approach the landlord and ask for the money back.  If they refuse, you can then approach BGRS for reimbursement.  The regulations are quite clear that you are entitled to reimbursement of expenses incurred as a result of cancelled postings.  See CBI 209.9962 - Reimbursement on Postponement or Cancellation of a Posting, specifically:

*(b) in respect of any amount the member has paid as a deposit or rent or in respect of any liability under a lease for accommodation the member was unable to occupy at the place to which the member was authorized to move prior to postponement or cancellation of the posting; and.... * 


As someone who has been involved in the relocation business of the CF, both under the old system and under the IRP (Royal LePage and then BGRS), I can offer a little insight.

We all tend to look back through rose-coloured glasses and many folks will swear up and down that thing were better before the IRP.  This was simply not true.  Some parts may have been better, but other parts were quantitatively worse.  The worst part of all was a lack of consistency.  Every orderly room in the country (and we had a lot more of them then) interpreted regulations and policy differently and so folks on some bases were receiving things that folks on other bases were not.  Furthermore, the regulations often could not keep up with the policy changes and so we were administering relocations based on stacks of CANFORGENS, while the CFAOs we should have been using simply gathered dust in a corner.  This was all combined with an horrific lack of consistency out of DGCB that swung wildly between approving everything and approving nothing.  It was a mess.

Out of this was born the Integrated Relocation (Pilot) Program.  This was not a DND initiative, but rather a pan-government one.  Although we move more people than anyone else, we are not the only federal government organization to do it and the Government wanted everyone under the same umbrella.   It was not necessarily designed as a cost saving measure, but rather as a means of streamlining and simplifying things.  One of the biggest goals was consistency.  Another goal was to formalize and properly approve policies which were being used, but technically didn't exist (e.g.  reimbursement for home inspection and pet shipment fees wasn't actually an approved policy, but we managed it by using the Special Powers of the Minister (CBI 209.013)).  Yes, the Minister had to approve Fido and Fluffy's trip to a new home.  Obviously, this was not the best way to do this.  The process of instituting the IRP brought many things into line and formalized what had in many cases been "ad hoc" benefits.  However, there was some negative fallout in that certain benefits, which had previously been tax-free became taxable.  The fact is, they should have been taxed all along and so our benefits had actually been in violation of the Income Tax Act.  At least the didn't collect any taxes retroactively!

Based on my observations, we came out ahead on this.  Although there are frustrations (particularly where things *seem* to have gotten worse), I would say that overall we have a better, more flexible package with more consistency than we had before the IRP.


----------



## Good2Golf (7 Oct 2011)

Pusser, I will agree with you that the program is theoretically more flexible than before.  

That said, when people are involved, reality and theory can be different.  

Based on my observations, we have not come out ahead on this.  I have found on numerous occasions that the onus of ensuring a move is executed properly is devolved to the member.  Three times I have been told to "review the CFIRP Annual Policy" to clarify what I am entitled to, asked the BGRS agent about what I have found, then waited while they then went back to the "mother ship" (DCBA) to confirm what the policy (which appeared clear enough in the CFIRP Annual Policy).  I have had money garnisheed of my military pay through actions of a relocation agent who believed that I had been over compensated IAW regulations/policy, only to have to fight months to have such adjustments (which were incorrect) corrected.  The sheer amount of time taken to sort these situations out, let alone the frustration and loss of personal time to address this outside of my official duties, leaves me yearning very strongly for the days when moves were the case of a half-day or two in the Base R&D section, followed by a quick visit down the hall to Base Traffic.

Your and my cases are but two of tens of thousands, and we can only speak to our personal experiences or those of whom we have spoken on the issue.  That said, I have no acquaintances who have ever maintained the position that CFIRP is "better" than the old system, so that would be at least several tens of people who had similar frustrations to me.

If the "theoretical flexibility" was actioned consistently in the spirit that the Treasury Board intended, that would be a good thing.


Regards
G2G


----------



## SeaKingTacco (7 Oct 2011)

I will echo G2G.  My issue is not with the allowances/benefits.  It is in dealing with BGRS staff, who have no discretion (and in many cases poor knowledge of the CFIRP policy manual) and must refer every non-std issue to DCBA.  I have found that the time I must personally take in administering my move (and filling out the same, mindless information on multiple, but slightly different forms) has exponentially exploded- to the point where wonder what BGRS actually does for the money they receive.  I seem to be doing all of the work.  Now, multiply this by thousands of DND moves per year.  Have we actually increased our efficiency or just downloaded the work on individual CF members?


----------



## aesop081 (7 Oct 2011)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Just downloaded the work on individual CF members?



BINGO !!!!!

The effort that I and my CoC had to expend this APS to organize the door-to-door move I was forced into was beyond absurd. If that wasnt bad enough, it's been a week since my arrival and still no F&E. There has been zero flexibility.


----------



## East Coaster (7 Oct 2011)

Pusser et all,

Thank you for the specific CBI relating to my issue.  My interpretation is that I will be asking the military for reimbursement rather that BGRS.  This is immeasurably better for many reasons.  Thank you.

On another note.  If anyone out there is being posted and chooses not to sell due to market values, IR, good schools for the kids, etc.. BE ADVISED that BGRS only gives you 15 business days to decide, after your appraisal, to elect to take the real estate incentive (REI), THEY WILL NOT TELL YOU THIS!  Sorry for the all caps but this info may help another military member and their family.  

In my case I was almost out $12,000.  Also, it may be more money in your pocket to take the REI and pay for the lawyers, real estate agent, deed transfer, etc yourself.  Remember this has to do with selling or not selling your home, the move of DF&E is still paid for.

It is funny when you go to your first planning appointment and after you ask them a question they hand you an 85 page document and say "look it up".  If we ever have to go to a full scale war we should just send a few BGRS agents to the enemy to bog them down in red tape and bureaucracy.


----------



## PMedMoe (8 Oct 2011)

East Coaster said:
			
		

> Thank you for the specific CBI relating to my issue.  *My interpretation is that I will be asking the military for reimbursement rather that BGRS.*  This is immeasurably better for many reasons.  Thank you.



Have you even talked to the landlord/rental company yet?   ???


----------



## Pusser (10 Oct 2011)

East Coaster said:
			
		

> My interpretation is that I will be asking the military for reimbursement rather that BGRS.  This is immeasurably better for many reasons.  Thank you.



That's not what I said.  You must do it in this order:

1)  Approach the landlord (be prepared to show that you have done everything reasonably possible to get the money back.  This is a well ingrained aspect of government policy).  IF the landlord refuses, then,

2)  File a claim *through BGRS*.  This is a move benefit like any other (e.g. pet transportation) and is administered by BGRS.  Keep in mind that *every* benefit administered by BGRS has a QR&O/CBI behind it.  This one is no different.  The reason I gave this reference to you was so that you could remind BGRS should that be required, not so you could go around them (because you can't).


----------



## captloadie (11 Oct 2011)

East Coaster said:
			
		

> In my case I was almost out $12,000.  _*Also, it may be more money in your pocket to take the REI and pay for the lawyers, real estate agent, deed transfer, etc yourself.*_  Remember this has to do with selling or not selling your home, the move of DF&E is still paid for.



Here lies one of the misconceptions many members have. The IRP program isn't meant to put any money in your pocket. It's meant to get you relocated from point A to point B, without _*costing*_ you anything.

Although we all have horror stories about IRP moves, I think Pusser is right when he says we look back with rose coloured glasses. Now, because it is a civilian contractor, and the policy is openly available, and literally forced upon us, we become more involved and cynical about the move. In the past, most members probably took what they were told by the clerks as gospel, and never argued. They were military members right, who knew the policy back and forth and never made mistakes right? I bet if you researched some of your pre-IRP moves, you would find out you were screwed over just as much, but because you weren't forced to take as active a role, didn't realize it.

I for one am looking forward to APS 2012, being posted back to Canada and seeing what interesting hassles evolve  8)


----------



## Pusser (11 Oct 2011)

captloadie said:
			
		

> In the past, most members probably took what they were told by the clerks as gospel, and never argued. They were military members right, who knew the policy back and forth and never made mistakes right? *I bet if you researched some of your pre-IRP moves, you would find out you were screwed over just as much*, but because you weren't forced to take as active a role, didn't realize it.



 :nod:  You've hit  it right on the head.

Good luck with your move home.


----------



## CountDC (11 Oct 2011)

hmmm still having  problem with the consistency part as during my move a few years back entitlements were determined in Halifax by my rep who enquired higher up to confirm.  After I arrive in Ottawa the rep on this end again checks higher, determines the entitlement does not exist and that they have to recover the money. I was actually lucky as I was then able to go back with a "fine, then that leaves me room in my envelope to claim this stuff instead" and zero balanced the transactions rather than fighting for months.  Seems we still have the old each OR interpreting the regs their way problem.

Although - I do hear that now you continue to deal with the same rep for the entire move instead of one at each end.  Is this true as it seems to me that it would make it a lot easier?


----------



## PMedMoe (11 Oct 2011)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Although - I do hear that now you continue to deal with the same rep for the entire move instead of one at each end.  Is this true as it seems to me that it would make it a lot easier?



That's what I was told this year.  And I did deal with the same rep.


----------



## aesop081 (11 Oct 2011)

Yup, you only deal with the BGRS rep at the place of origin.


----------



## magnumcharger (15 Nov 2011)

I've read what has been written here with great interest! 
Although my personal circumstances are not exactly the same, I am facing a similar situation in the near future. 

My wife and I are a service couple, currently co-located in Halifax. My wife's contract will be expiring on January 8th 2012. My contract will be completing on Feb 29th 2012.
Upon completing her service, my wife will be moving back to our home province, and our house, to look for employment. As the PMQ we are renting in Halifax is not only in her name, but excessively expensive, we will be forced to vacate it when my wife moves. As well, the F&E will accompany her to our house, as she is entitled to a move.
My sole income will not be able to cover the cost of our house and an apartment in Halifax.
This leaves me without a place to stay for two months until I release.
I submitted a memorandum through my CoC to my CM requesting a posting to the Base closest to my house in order to complete my term of service, and carry out my clearances. I've already been informed by my CoC that they would not support my request, and have indicated so to my CM.
Apparently, (so I was informed), my qualifications are such that my place of work would experience difficulty functioning if I were to leave. I find this excuse to lack credibility as I'm releasing in February anyway. My unit is going to have to quickly develop a game plan to deal with my loss, and it's impact on operations.

My question is thus: Am I entitled to any form of support, IR or otherwise, to facilitate my cost of living in the Halifax area?
Thanks.


----------



## PMedMoe (15 Nov 2011)

I would suggest requesting to live in barracks for the short period required.  Since your spouse is moving of her own accord, and not for service reasons, I have my doubts as to whether you will be entitled to SE.


----------



## CountDC (15 Nov 2011)

I agree that it lacks credibility too.  you are talking about less than 2 months.

You will be entitled to a move too along with the special relocation days (2 or 3, never can recall which is for the losing end).  What other leave will you have to burn off before the 29th?  While you be flying when you move or will you have a vehicle to drive?  Makes a difference in travel days. My move flying was one day, driving was 3 days.  This can all build into an actual small amount of time at your current work which in turn lessons the credibility.  All depends on how much you want to burn your bridges.

I would compile all my leave days, calculate everything out for a departure date and then request barracks for the period you will be on the ground.  Mind you I am also the type that would save as much annual as I could for then.

Just out of curiousity.  Is the 29 Feb your choice?  just wondering as it is an odd date for a release.  Looking at the calender if I was a release clerk I would recommend to the member to elect the 4 Mar as the release date instead.  4 More days pay for nothing as you would earn 2 more days leave to cover the rest of the week.


----------



## Pusser (15 Nov 2011)

Some other things to consider:

1)  Your wife does not have to move immediately upon release.

2)  You can still stay in the PMQ if you are still serving (just have it transferred to your name).

So, why doesn't she stay in Halifax until you are released and then you both move together?  Keep also in mind that upon release, your wife will be entitled to a number of release and/or EI benefits that may help to tide you over financially until your release and move.  Even if you run up your debt a little bit in the interim, your release benefits will likely cover the loss.


----------



## emanthal (21 Nov 2011)

G'Day,

I'm in the process of CTing from PRes to Reg I'm expecting to get posted to Kingston in the new year.   I'm planning to go on IR and I've read the IRP docs, however I have a few of questions that I havent been able to find an answer to anywhere.  Just trying to do some research so I don't go crazy waiting for the official offer.  

Accomodations:
1. I'm pretty sure that Kingston does not have available space on base ATT, so I will be looking for an apartment off-base.  Will I be given some options by the IR folks, or is it completely up to me to find a place that meets the requirments?  
2. Does anyone know of a good place to start looking, other than the usual online apartment rental sources?

Transportation 
3. I have a motorbike as my only vehicle.  Am I able to rent a small truck to move my belongings and bike, or am I going to be forced to ship everything seperately?

Thanks for any help


----------



## PMedMoe (21 Nov 2011)

Apparently, you can rent a vehicle only if you are within 250 km of the new place of duty.



> rent a vehicle (maximum size – mini van) to transport their personal effects to new place of duty and return when they are within 250 km of their new place of duty. No overnight stay is authorized. CF members must have insurance on the rental vehicle.



http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pd/rel-rei/aps-paa-2009/chapter-chapitre-03-eng.asp#art-03-04-06


----------



## emanthal (21 Nov 2011)

Apparently I did not read close enough.  "CF members must ship their PMV under the HGRS contract system when the service is available."  

OK, question 3 tentatively answered.

Any takers on questoin 1 and 2?


----------



## PMedMoe (21 Nov 2011)

emanthal said:
			
		

> Apparently I did not read close enough.  "CF members must ship their PMV under the HGRS contract system when the service is available."



I've been posted on IR twice and have never shipped my vehicle.


----------



## emanthal (21 Nov 2011)

Doesn't mean you must ship your vehicle. Means if you do, it has to be done through the HGRS contract.


----------



## PMedMoe (21 Nov 2011)

emanthal said:
			
		

> Doesn't mean you must ship your vehicle. Means if you do, it has to be done through the HGRS contract.



Okay and what does that have to do with renting a vehicle to move your belongings?  Scratch that, I notice you asked about renting a vehicel to move your bike _and_ belongings.


----------



## Pusser (21 Nov 2011)

Generally you are on your own to find a place to live.  However, you should contact the IR clerk in OR in Kingston.  He/she may have a list of local places that meet the criteria (IR clerks often do).  I also wouldn't be too quick to discount the availability of single quarters in Kingston, which you must use if suitable and available. 

Yes you can ship your motocycle as your PMOV.  You also have the option to drive it and claim mileage as well as meals and accomodations en route.  You can also ship 500 lbs of unaccompanied baggage at public expense (through CMTT).


----------



## emanthal (21 Nov 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Generally you are on your own to find a place to live.  However, you should contact the IR clerk in OR in Kingston.  He/she may have a list of local places that meet the criteria (IR clerks often do).  I also wouldn't be too quick to discount the availability of single quarters in Kingston, which you must use if suitable and available.
> 
> Yes you can ship your motocycle as your PMOV.  You also have the option to drive it and claim mileage as well as meals and accomodations en route.  You can also ship 500 lbs of unaccompanied baggage at public expense (through CMTT).



The Kingston Accom page makes it look  unlikley to get single quarters: http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/asu_kingston/accommodations/docs/2010/Single_Quarters_Entitlement_Imposed_Restriction_Temp_Relocation_Jul_10.pdf

Trust me,  I would rather ride my bike, but January would not be a preferable time to do it.  ;D


----------



## tabernac (7 May 2012)

So I've read through the entire thread, and I have some questions as they pertain to my situation. 

I'm posting to Esquimalt from Kingston this summer. I'll be driving my vehicle across the country, for which BGRS has told me it takes 10 days. My COS is near the end of May, and I will be sorting out my RFD in the near future. My problem is this: my losing unit is forcing me to take annual leave to drive across the country. I don't think this is right, but I don't know how to prove it. Where can I find references to clarify my situation?


----------



## SeaKingTacco (7 May 2012)

Your losing unit is wrong.  Your travel days are duty.  Ask your unit how exactly they propose that you will be getting per diem while travelling?

Ask to see the chief clerk.


----------



## Biohazardxj (8 May 2012)

cheeky_monkey said:
			
		

> So I've read through the entire thread, and I have some questions as they pertain to my situation.
> 
> I'm posting to Esquimalt from Kingston this summer. I'll be driving my vehicle across the country, for which BGRS has told me it takes 10 days. My COS is near the end of May, and I will be sorting out my RFD in the near future. My problem is this: my losing unit is forcing me to take annual leave to drive across the country. I don't think this is right, but I don't know how to prove it. Where can I find references to clarify my situation?



Travel days are working days, not annual leave.


----------



## bridges (9 May 2012)

THE CF Leave Policy Manual says that "Special Leave (Relocation) is exclusive of and distinct from the travel time *authorized* [emphasis mine] for the relocation of members and families between locations" - but I haven't yet laid hands on a reg explicitly saying the travel isn't part of annual leave.   I wonder why they would say you have to take annual.  I agree with SeaKingTacco - ask to see the chief clerk on this one.   

In the meantime, further to MCG's remarks about Special Leave (Relocation) applying differently in various circumstances, and the breakdown of the components (pers admin, HG&E, embarkation, etc.), there are some tables at para "5.11.11 Calculation" that lay out various scenarios - posted overseas, posted to Canada from overseas, restricted posting, etc.

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pd/lea-con/cflpm-mprcfc-eng.asp


----------



## Biohazardxj (9 May 2012)

And you won't anything saying annual is not part of travel.  Annual is annual and relocation is relocation.  They are two separate things and not interchangeable.  Having said that you may, if you wish, take annual leave in conjunction with your relocation leave.  

As stated  a couple of times here.  Talk to you orderly room.


----------



## dapaterson (9 May 2012)

I suspect someone has read the new CFTDI and is applying it to a relocation scenario.


----------



## tabernac (9 May 2012)

Well they seemed to have dropped the topic - I haven't heard anything more about being forced to take leave. If they do start down that road again, I'll know who to talk to. Thanks for the replies!


----------



## bridges (10 May 2012)

I wonder if they've compelled any other mbrs to do that in the past, who didn't check into it further at the time.  Anyway, good luck with the rest of your move.


----------



## CountDC (10 May 2012)

Wow mate.  Going through my move preps to BC now.  There is no annual leave involved in the move as it is covered by your claim.  What a mess that one could create if something would happen enroute.   The only place you may need to take annual for is if you do an extended HHT that involves additional week days or you want to tack some on to your move.  You have 10 days of travel that is duty not leave (and I am jealous - I only get 9 days as I am about 60k short of crossing the 9500 mark).

You are going ahead of me so feel free to post any route and hotel suggestions.


----------



## TCM621 (3 Jul 2012)

I searched around but couldn't find anything here on this topic (or on dwan for that matter). Short background: Been in about ten years, took a CEOTP commission a few years back and after about 4 years of career mismanagement (long story), was put on my DP1.1 Course in Feb. I have been posted in Esquimalt as that was my previous place of duty prior to commissioning. Have been doing OJE there and travelling on TD to courses until the day before I left for DP1.1 when I was posted prohibited to Gagetown. Was unsuccessful on DP1.1 and am awaiting a reversion to the ranks.

So my question is how long can they post you prohibited before they move your family? I'm going on 5 months and sadly no clear date in sight for my transfer. I have no problem waiting a while as it is no ones fault but mine that I am in this position but on the other hand I have an autistic son back home and it is pretty tough on my wife and family to here, "Sorry hun, I could be here indefinitely. Two years doesn't seem uncommon".

I am trying to do what I can to speed the process along the canforgen says BPSO appointment with in 30 days of cease training but that passed a while ago and a few more months won't kill me. However, I can't see there being no recourse to being posted away from your family indefinitely. I'm hoping some of you admin types or barracks lawyers can help me out.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (3 Jul 2012)

Tony Manifold said:
			
		

> I'm hoping some of you admin types or barracks lawyers can help me out.



I would not take anything from them.....

My suggestion is to contact your CoC and see what the hang up is......


----------



## TCM621 (3 Jul 2012)

easier said then done. Without speaking out of turn, lets just say I would rather provide them with a possible solution IAW CF regulations than complaints.


----------



## Ostrozac (3 Jul 2012)

I'm going to make some assumptions here, as some of the branches handle untrained officers differently. I assume that you are posted prohibited to the Gagetown BTL -- and while you are legally posted to Gagetown, and your pers file is held there, administrative responsibility for you is probably resting with your branch advisor shop, or possibly one of the DGMC career managers. What you likely need to do is get your local BTL administrator in contact with that shop, and get them to cut a posting message back to BTL Esquimalt. Justification? Needs of the service. Keeping you on Prohibited status costs the military extra money. Reuniting you with your Furniture and Effects doesn't. And there are BPSO in both locations.

This assumes that the final decision has been made that you will not continue as an officer in your current MOC. Whether they permit you to revert to NCO status or give you a release (if, for example, your old trade is overborne), you still have to get back to Esquimalt, either so you can collect your family for your next posting as an NCM, or for release admin. 

If that final decision hasn't been made, and you may in fact potentially continue as an army CEOTP officer, there is a good argument to keeping you in Gagetown because that's where the army OJT opportunities are.


----------



## McG (3 Jul 2012)

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> I'm going to make some assumptions here ...


That is a bad place to start if you are giving someone advice on career or life decisions.



			
				Ostrozac said:
			
		

> I assume that you are posted prohibited to the Gagetown BTL ...


Most of the untrained officers in CTC schools are posted to the schools and not to a BTL.  There are exceptions, but this assumption would not be a safe one to make.



			
				Ostrozac said:
			
		

> ... and while you are legally posted to Gagetown, and your pers file is held there, administrative responsibility for you is probably resting with your branch advisor shop, or possibly one of the DGMC career managers.


CTC's G3 Trg Production is the BTL manager for Army officer occupations.  No branch adviser or DGMC CM.



			
				Tony Manifold said:
			
		

> So my question is how long can they post you prohibited before they move your family?


  
Do you have DWAN access to research things such as APM-245 and CFAO?
Have you inquired about being sent on OJE in Esquimalt while you wait for your career admin to be sorted?  There is a budget for that, and it will actually save the CF money to put you in a workspace where you are back living with your family.


----------



## TCM621 (3 Jul 2012)

MCG said:
			
		

> That is a bad place to start if you are giving someone advice on career or life decisions.
> Most of the untrained officers in CTC schools are posted to the schools and not to a BTL.  There are exceptions, but this assumption would not be a safe one to make.
> CTC's G3 Trg Production is the BTL manager for Army officer occupations.  No branch adviser or DGMC CM.
> 
> ...



APM-25? I'll check that out. As I said, I really like to present a solution that fits with in Army regs rather than just whine " I wanna go home". I figure it costs the army 1500 bucks a month or there about while they still pay me PLD for Esquimalt, so i think it would be best for both me and the army. But references always help. Thanks.


----------



## PuckChaser (4 Jul 2012)

Think of it this way, now you know what a deployment feels like.


----------



## TCM621 (4 Jul 2012)

its not like I have never been away before and deployments have end dates. if there was an end date I wouldn't be worried.


----------



## armyvern (4 Jul 2012)

Tony Manifold said:
			
		

> its not like I have never been away before and deployments have end dates. if there was an end date I wouldn't be worried.



K. Now you know what it's like to be IR (well, not exactly - MSC) ... for numerous postings (ie: years) in a row.

That being said, I managed to get a lot of pers out of PRetC Borden in to Gagetown to do their OJT because their families were in the area of us and not Borden.

It's already been brought up here by someone else, but I'd approach with a request to be sent to Esquimalt to do OJT until a final disposition is made on your status. The worst that's going to happen is a "no" response. They sure as heck won't (can't) say "yes" if you don't make the inquiry though.


----------



## wesleyd (5 Jul 2012)

Tony Manifold said:
			
		

> its not like I have never been away before and deployments have end dates. if there was an end date I wouldn't be worried.


I wouldn't say that deployments have end dates. I have been on several that have had no end date. We were just told we may be home in 8 months time or longer or shorter.


----------



## Disenchantedsailor (5 Jul 2012)

Tony.  PM me


----------



## jeffb (5 Jul 2012)

wesleyd said:
			
		

> I wouldn't say that deployments have end dates. I have been on several that have had no end date. We were just told we may be home in 8 months time or longer or shorter.



That's still an end date... When I was in Gagetown it was not uncommon for people to posted there prohibited for 1.5 - 2 years. I know of one guy who was prohibited posted there for over 3 years. Many of these people moved their families up to Fredericton on their own dime not willing to be doing the long distance relationship thing for years on end with no date. Not sure what it is like now but given the length of training for officers, I suspect it can not be much shorter that people are expected to be away from their families.


----------



## mayoman (30 Aug 2013)

Here is the issue, I was posted to Cold Lake from Winnipeg, and I submitted a memo to reside outside the Geo Area of Cold Lake, which i received back approved in Apr 13, So  I went to IRP and planned my HHT to Lloydminster did my HHT and bought a house in Lloyd, RTB'd to Wpg and planned my move packed and loaded my HG&E end July and traveled to Lloyd, arrived on the 2 Aug 13 and took possion of my house that morning, I received a call from IRP Winnipeg that afternoon and was told that DCBA denied my request, my memo states in the W ADM CWO min that CO's approval granted and that no need to staff through DCBA, so this mean that my move was an illegal move and it means that I have to repay my all money from my move. that means I have to Repay all My HHT, and everything associated with the move. Now DCBA and IRP has come around a bit they will cover some of my drive out to Lloyd but not all, they will not pay for anything with buying in Lloyd, and I have to pay back all the HHT, Also because I bought in Lloyd, which DCBA denied my HG&E was not delivered to Lloyd but to Cold Lake and the trailer was parked on the side of the road, where I had to rent U-Hauls trucks and reload it myself and bring it to Lloyd at my own expense. This is just some of the points, so far getting posted to Cold Lake is costing me over $10 grand out of my pocket, after 25 years of loyal service, this how they treat me. my release went in yesterday. I am thinking legal action, but don't know where to start, can anyone point me in the right direction.


----------



## Jungle (30 Aug 2013)

Can you claim it as your release move ?


----------



## dapaterson (30 Aug 2013)

IRP Manual, section 2.6 has the following to say:


> Section 2.6 Authority to reside outside geographical
> boundaries
> 
> 2.6.01 Shipment of HG&E
> ...


----------



## Eye In The Sky (30 Aug 2013)

I just went thru this process this APS and was approved.  I'm curious how your file got thru all the checks and balances in place.

Someone screwed up.  The approval to reside outside Geo Boundaries final authority is DCBA.  The process is:

1.  seek CO's approval, if granted, go to 2.  If denied...secure replacement residence inside boundaries/go IR.

2.  BAdmO approval is sought.  If approved, that org fwd's request to DCBA for adjudication.

3.  DCBA does their file review and renders decision.

Someone dropped the ball with your request.  However, I knew the process as I am OCD and read the IRP manual, etc from front to back and had a highlighter when I did it, to draw attention to the parts that applied to me.  *CYA* kind of thing, right?

Also, I'm curious about IRP;  my file didn't move forward until they had a copy of the DCBA decision and IRP was Cc'd the email decision;  I had about a 1.5 month wait for DCBA to decide but IRP would do nothing until that decision.  How, in your case, did IRP move forward without that message from IRP??

How far is your replacement residence from the geo boundary?  Not defending anyone, but DCBA reviews lots of factors (market health, distance from place of duty, etc) when deciding these requests.

I don't believe the way they handled it was appropriate based on your reply; the CofC has a responsibility to ensure the admin was done correctly (IMO).


Not sure of your unit SOPs, but maybe a start to getting this reviewed is a sit-down with your immediate CofC, after which they can speak to the Admin O.  If the Admin O gets the facts straight, they might be able to brief the Exec types/CO and see what can be done.

You might also consider doing up a Notice of Intent To Grieve to submit to your CO.


----------



## mayoman (3 Sep 2013)

Thanks for the feedback, to clarify a couple of things, my memo was submitted and approved by CO's, W Admin O, and W Ops O,  min #2  states " This is CO approval no need to staff thru DCBA" and this is what I gave to IRP, and they made the arrangements, I guess, based on this. So everything I done was done in good faith, and above board, although I purchased a house outside geo area, I had a plan to stay with my uncle during the week and this was also stated in my memo, I had all bases covered.


----------



## DAA (3 Sep 2013)

dapaterson hit the nail on the head.  CFIRP Manual Art 2.6.02 and 2.6.03.  Whilst your CO does have the authority to authorize you to reside outside the geographical boundaries of your place of duty, it is DCBA who is the ultimate authority for the relocation of your D HG&E to that area due to financial issues both going in and coming out.

You got some seriously BAD administrative advice and on top of that your Brookefield Rep should have said "Where is the DCBA approval to relocate your belongings?".  In the end, you may be paying the price for it!


----------



## mayoman (4 Sep 2013)

DAA you may be right, I am already paying the price, but what to do next, I have submitted my release, after 25 + years, i am the one to pay for other peoples mistakes, they have already started to recover my HHT expenses, so legal action my be my next option.


----------



## DAA (4 Sep 2013)

mayoman said:
			
		

> DAA you may be right, I am already paying the price, but what to do next, I have submitted my release, after 25 + years, i am the one to pay for other peoples mistakes, they have already started to recover my HHT expenses, so legal action my be my next option.



Why jump the gun and make a decision to release based on a "bump" in the road.  Your better off to ride it out and try to resolve the issue from within, as opposed to walking away bitter and angry over a screw-up that should never have happened in the first place.

And I wouldn't waste any money on the legal avenue.  I'm pretty sure that Agents of the "crown" can't be sued for making mistakes at their job, unless it is as a result of "wilful" negligence.


----------



## PAdm (5 Sep 2013)

I am going to assume that all was in good faith and it was failures of bureaucracy that created this problem. I am also going to assume that many people are now looking at you and saying "gee, that's too bad".  I have seen screw ups put right when the right people get involved. E.g. When your general calls their general, the issue gets attention. If you do not have a general buddy in your pocket (few do), you need another mechanism to get attention at the right level.  A grievance is one such mechanism but will take 12-24 months to get there. Release is not such a mechanism as the system does not care/get fussed with releases.  Accordingly, I would recommend you look into the Ombudsman route. You need to demonstrate that the system created a problem and is now leaving you holding the bag. They cannot guarantee a positive solution, but will demand due process take place in a timely manner. This maybe the heat and light you need.  Right now you are arguing with staff officers when the reality is you need to access the organ grinder himself. Who knows what the result will be, but you need to get past the staff. Good luck and do not release.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (6 Sep 2013)

Would a good place to start be the Admin O at the new unit?  I mentioned it before, as I thought that *perhaps* the Admin O at new place of duty might see the error was not on the part of the mbr, discuss with CO, CO support and take up to his/her boss...etc.  This could be the quickest and best remedy (if it worked).  

Also, a well-written NOI to grieve might get 'eyes on' from the Admin O and CO as well.

I am thinking *quickly, informally* for *slow/formal*.

Also, with the Ombudsmen, I doubt you'll get any action there as there is a requirement to "use existing mechanism's in the CF first".  Ref for that is the DAOD for the Office of the Ombudsmen (I am not at work and can't recall the exact DAOD #).  It also states that CF mbr's who do not use CF internal mech's may be subj to admin/disciplinary measures.


----------



## dapaterson (6 Sep 2013)

From the original post:  "my memo states in the W ADM CWO min that CO's approval granted and that no need to staff through DCBA".

Sounds to me like negligent performance of a duty.  Methinks if more folks were held accountable for their actions they might do their jobs properly.


----------



## McG (6 Sep 2013)

Sounds like negligent misrepresentation.  Legally, the crown could be obligated to pay up, but even the CDS does not have the authority to fix what happened by covering the costs.  You may want to look at DAOD 7004-0 and Director Claims and Civil Litigation (DCCL).


----------



## mayoman (6 Sep 2013)

Thanks for all the feed back, I received an email this morning stating that under 2nd review DGCB has consulted all documentation and considered the new facts that were brought before him, DGCB is authorizing all relocation benefits, including purchase benefits.


----------



## badwolf (6 Sep 2013)

I know this subject has been discussed to great lengths; however, I have been out of the CF for just under 2 years and I am looking for some clarification on IR Benefits. When I was last in the CF during 2011 I was on IR and basically I received something like $14/day and my rent was reimbursed. 

I am returning to the CF and I will be posted away from my spouse for at least the first year. I want to know what the new(since all the cuts) IR Benefits are; basically we are wondering if is even worth applying for, or if we should just have all our belongings shipped to my new posting and just collect the PLD and deal with being apart. 

I am being posted to Calgary and there are no barracks, or mess,  and rent is extremely high, so we are also curious what the PLD is and how it is payed out as I have never received PLD before. 

Any help with this will be greatly appreciated, thanks in advance.

Badwolf


----------



## Eye In The Sky (6 Sep 2013)

Great news!  Did you retract your release memo?


----------



## captloadie (8 Sep 2013)

I've been watching this post with interest, and now have to ask one question. How did you convince anyone that living 2 hours away from your place of duty was acceptable? To be honest, I think the CO should have denied the request from the onset, which would have stopped all futher issues you have had.


----------



## TCM621 (9 Sep 2013)

If I recall correctly Calgary's PLD is very low. Like 20 dollars. The current policy states if you go on IR that :
(CBI 208.997(8))
If quarters are unavailable
at public expense and the member occupies a
private accommodation, the amount of SE is
limited to:
(a) private accommodation expenses, the
monthly amount of which does not exceed
the monthly charge under paragraph (1) of
article 208.50 (Deductions for the Provision
of Single Quarters and Covered Residential
Parking) of the QR&O for a single quarter
Type H1, rated “very good”;


----------



## Pat in Halifax (9 Sep 2013)

Keep in mind that as of Feb this year, all SE for those on IR ceased so you will only get reimbursed your rent...and that's it. If you are there IR, you will automatically get PLD for your 'home' location. You might want to do a bit of reading of this as there have been some dramatic changes in the last 12-18 months.
I suspect you may have had one of the RMS clerks PM you already??

Pat


----------



## badwolf (9 Sep 2013)

Thanks for the feedback, I knew that IR had been greatly reduced, and that it will likely see more cuts and restrictions in the future. That said, although having the rent covered would be very helpful considering average rent for a decent place ranges from 1300 to 1700/month(...granted I could rent a tiny apartment, or shady basement in a rougher neighborhood for 800-1200/month). My wife and I are renting a furnished place on Manitoulin and all our belongings have been in storage in my mom's basement for years, we would like to get all our stuff out of there; however, if PLD is only $20 that might not be a viable option. I thought I had read some where that PLD in Calgary had gone up to $710? I'd like to know for certain before committing to a HHT and moving all of our F and E out there only to find out that PLD really is only $20... I realize that I can't count on PLD as a constant income source; but, given the cost of living out there I do have to take into consideration in my budget. 

thanks again, and if anyone knows where I can get an up to date list of the current PLD rates that would great.


----------



## ARMY_101 (10 Sep 2013)

If I've found the correct reference, PLD is currently frozen at 2009/2010 rates. For Calgary that's $711.


----------



## TCM621 (10 Sep 2013)

I was mistaken. It is now 711. Here is the most recent list IAW CBI 204.45

Aldergrove 418 Ottawa/Gatineau 0
Barrie -Borden 0 Peterborough - DND 0
Brantford 0 Prince Albert 0
Calgary 711 Quebec City - Valcartier 117
Cambridge 71 Red Deer 327
Chatham ON 0 Regina 62
Chilliwack 0 Rouyn-Noranda 0
Cold Lake 319 Sarnia 0
Corner Brook 0 Saskatoon 382
Dundurn-Saskatoon 0 Sault Ste Marie 0
Edmonton 684 Sept -Îles -DND 107
Gander 0 Sherbrooke 0
Grand Falls - Windsor 0 Shilo 0
Guelph 167 Saint-Hyacinthe 0
Halifax 631 Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu 0
Hamilton 414 St. John’s 149
Kamloops/Kelowna 525 Stratford - DND 82
Kenora 0 Sudbury 0
Kingston 0 Thunder Bay 0
Kitchener 62 Timmins 0
Lethbridge 234 Toronto Area 1 1,485
London 0 Toronto Area 2 506
Meaford-Owen Sound 77 Toronto Area 3 522
Medicine Hat 145 Toronto Area 4 819
Montreal North Shore 505 Toronto Area 5 1,167
Montreal South Shore 376 Trail 0
Moose Jaw 284 Vancouver 1,083
Nanaimo 75 Victoria/Esquimalt 816
Niagara/St. Catharines 0 Windsor 0
North Bay 0 Winnipeg 0


----------



## badwolf (19 Sep 2013)

Awesome, thanks for the confirmation guys. I think we are going to just take the PLD and get our F and E shipped out there. That way we can have an actual home in Calgary, which will be nice when the missus comes out for her summers off... can't argue with summers in the Rockies! Now I just have to wait for Brookfield/IRP to send me my login and password. Also Since I am a re-enrollment, would my pay start after my COS date(30 Sep)? the CFRC put me on LWOP until 29 Sep. I just want to make sure that I won't be without a paycheck for too long. Thanks again for the help!


----------



## TwoTonShackle (19 Sep 2013)

There is also new direction for joining members and PLD.  If you are not "trades' qualified, (QL3/OFP but don't quote me on that) you are no longer entitled to PLD.  This direction came out in August from Ottawa and currently applies to new members and CT's going into the Regular Force and into different trades.  Good times.


----------



## badwolf (20 Sep 2013)

TwoTonShackle said:
			
		

> There is also new direction for joining members and PLD.  If you are not "trades' qualified, (QL3/OFP but don't quote me on that) you are no longer entitled to PLD.  This direction came out in August from Ottawa and currently applies to new members and CT's going into the Regular Force and into different trades.  Good times.



That's not too surprising... Luckily I have my QL3 so I should be okay... famous last words right? lol. Does anyone know how long IRP takes to send you a password and login; I've been waiting since 10 September.


----------



## DAA (20 Sep 2013)

badwolf said:
			
		

> That's not too surprising... Luckily I have my QL3 so I should be okay... famous last words right? lol. Does anyone know how long IRP takes to send you a password and login; I've been waiting since 10 September.



PM inbound with some details for you.......please confirm that you received the info?  I notice alot of new members here don't seem to check or don't know how to check their "Personal Messages - PM's"


----------



## armymen (31 Oct 2013)

Good morning,
I am currently in IR in Edmonton, my house and wife still in NB.
When I do my tax this years, would I pay Alberta or NB Tax ?

I understand my primary residence is in NB, but same time I work in Alberta, and where I live is Alberta ?


----------



## DrSize (31 Oct 2013)

You would have to file your taxes with NB.  It is where you reside on 31 Dec.  If your primary residence is still in NB then technically that is where you reside on 31 Dec.  It is the same thing for all the guys that go work in Fort Mac but have their house in NS, they file with NS even though they live and work in the camps in Fort Mac


----------



## armymen (31 Oct 2013)

Ha  that sad, tax a lots lower here.
Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## DAA (31 Oct 2013)

armymen said:
			
		

> Good morning,
> I am currently in IR in Edmonton, my house and wife still in NB.
> When I do my tax this years, would I pay Alberta or NB Tax ?
> 
> I understand my primary residence is in NB, but same time I work in Alberta, and where I live is Alberta ?



Filing income tax is a "personal" matter, so the CF cannot tell you YES or NO with regards to tax related questions.  It is entirely up to you as to what you choose to do.  I would suggest taking a quick look at the CRA website and if you want a definitive answer, you would have to speak with CRA directly.

I believe this is the most current info from CRA  -  http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/tchncl/ncmtx/fls/s5/f1/s5-f1-c1-eng.html


----------



## DrSize (31 Oct 2013)

I was working towards a CA designation before joining the CAF and have worked for a public accounting firm as well as getting pretty intimate with the income tax act that I studied in both personal and corporate taxation.  You would be extremely hard pressed to be able to justify filing with AB with your principle residence and spouse in NB, in fact you couldn't justify it.  It is pretty clear cut that it is where your principle residence is on 31 Dec.  Your house, spouse, and kids are your resendential ties.......it sucks cause Quebec and the Maritimes are brutal for provincial income tax rate


----------



## DAA (31 Oct 2013)

DrSize said:
			
		

> I was working towards a CA designation before joining the CAF and have worked for a public accounting firm as well as getting pretty intimate with the income tax act that I studied in both personal and corporate taxation.  You would be extremely hard pressed to be able to justify filing with AB with your principle residence and spouse in NB, in fact you couldn't justify it.  It is pretty clear cut that it is where your principle residence is on 31 Dec.  Your house, spouse, and kids are your resendential ties.......it sucks cause Quebec and the Maritimes are brutal for provincial income tax rate



That's true but as a member of the CF, by going the way of IR, you have merely suspended an employment required relocation which at some point in time will take place.  So technically, you could be considered as having "dual" residency status at this time.  But careful where you go with this.  IR is merely a "temporary" situation, taken on by yourself due to personal circumstances.  So you can't say "I have no intention of relocating my family to my current location" as that puts the brakes on IR should it come to light.

Are you "physically" living in Alberta, do you have an AB drivers licence is your employment location AB, will your family join you, etc.......there are pro's and con's.

At the end of the day, it's your call!


----------



## DrSize (1 Nov 2013)

NB actually isn't too bad (nowhere near as bad as Quebec or NS).  If you have 70k of taxable income the difference you pay in provincial income tax between NB and AB is a little over 800/year.  It starts to become really noticable if your taxable income is 100k + per year as AB tax rate is 10% across the board regardless of how much you make.  ON and BC have attractive provincial income tax rates as well....

It is worth talking to CRA to get a definite answer from the source.  I am 99% sure that you would have to file in NB and in my opinion saving 800 in taxes isn't worth possibly getting audited by CRA as most likely a red flag would come up on your file......


----------



## armyvern (1 Nov 2013)

DrSize said:
			
		

> I was working towards a CA designation before joining the CAF and have worked for a public accounting firm as well as getting pretty intimate with the income tax act that I studied in both personal and corporate taxation.  You would be extremely hard pressed to be able to justify filing with AB with your principle residence and spouse in NB, in fact you couldn't justify it.  It is pretty clear cut that it is where your principle residence is on 31 Dec.  Your house, spouse, and kids are your resendential ties.......it sucks cause Quebec and the Maritimes are brutal for provincial income tax rate



Nope; you're right - it's NB taxes for him.  There's many threads on this site already dealing with IR and taxes and inclusive of the CRA response.

How could one swear to the CF that his principal residence is in NB and therefore be granted IR and it's associated expenses covered "for being posted separately from his principal residence and family" ... then turn around and sign off on his legal income tax forms swearing that his principal residence is actually Alberta??  He's lying to at least one entity then.  It's called fraud.

Last time I checked, only senators from PEI were, for a time, deemed to be officially-unofficially eligible for such principal residency flip-flops.


----------



## Transporter (1 Nov 2013)

Not only that, but when he goes to sell his house in NB (assuming home ownership and possible move at some later date) he'll be liable for capital gains for the period the house wasn't his principal residence... they get you one way or the other


----------



## ryanski (28 Aug 2014)

So this year I was accepted to AVOTP.  Upon completion of my QL3 would I be entitled to IR (I have met CBI 208.997(3)a-h) even though it's my first posting in my new trade?  

I recall seeing in a pub somewhere (Can't remember the circumstances) that one was not eligible for IR on the first posting [insert acronym here] that I was told meant once qualified in a new trade. I cannot remember the acronym.

Anyone have any idea of this?  Any IR SMEs out there?  I'm a newb pub searcher but I've spent quite some time looking.  Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## HR Mgr (23 Sep 2014)

Everyone says if you meet the conditions to move your HG&E in accordance with the CFIRP Manual 11.1.01, then you're also entitled to IR as long as your CM gives his approval. QL3 is good enough to be entitled to a move on first posting, see 11.1.01.



But dam I can't find it in any policy.


----------



## McG (24 Sep 2014)

ryanski said:
			
		

> I cannot remember the acronym.


I suspect it is OFP, which means operational functional point ... or, the point at which you can start to do your job.


----------



## HR Mgr (27 Sep 2014)

Read CANFORGEN 184/12 it has pretty much all the info.  In that CANFORGEN or one of the refs in that CANFORGEN, says QL3s on their first posting are NOT entitled to IR. But this isn't your first posting.


----------



## 63 Delta (27 Sep 2014)

I dont have any references for you other than my own personal experiences.

But on my QL3/QL5, two of my course mates both were receiving IR while on course for different reasons. I don't know the specifics, but they both had IR for around 6 months. One was AVOTP, the other was a component transfer from the reserves.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (27 Sep 2014)

MCG said:
			
		

> I suspect it is OFP, which means operational functional point ... or, the point at which you can start to do your job.



Add-on point.  Check your occ specs for your trade OFP.  Not all are the same.  My current trade OFP is QL5. My previous trade was QL3.


----------



## firehoser (6 Oct 2014)

Good day,

I`m looking for some administrative advice since I`m not getting any clear answers from work and I have no access to dwan at the moment so unable to ref. CANFORGEN`s and whatnot. 

What I`m trying to find out is whether I am eligible for IR or not.

Here's my sit:

CT'ed to regF 05 OCT 13 from resF
prohibited posted to Borden BTL 
QL3 finished, COS date 09 SEP 14
Posted to bagotville 10 SEP 14

Here's the refs I was told to look into;

CANFORGEN 184/12 7D
CANFORGEN 184/12 CMP 078/12 101509Z OCT 12
http://cmp-cpm.forces.mil.ca/dgmc/mc-cm/posting-affectation/docs/ir-faq-ri-fra.asp#q7

Any help would be great,

Thanks,


----------



## firehoser (10 Oct 2014)

After researching my own situation I found this.  Hope it helps.

REFs: 

http://cmp-cpm.forces.mil.ca/dgmc/mc-cm/posting-affectation/docs/ir-faq-ri-eng.asp
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits-relocation/2014-directive-ch11.page
CANFORGEN 145/12 CMP 063/12 301435Z JUL 12 
Benefits IAW CBI 208.997

"Q9: I have just reached OFP. Am I eligible for IR status and/or SE benefits?
No, even though you have reached your OFP, you must complete one posting after you have reached OFP. OFP is only one of the criteria that must be reached to be granted IR status."

"Q16: I have just completed an OT and I have not reached OFP in my current occupation. Am I eligible for IR status?
The IR policy was never generated to penalize Regular force members who have reached their OFP, have completed at least one posting and are improving themselves. Therefore, Regular Force members who have VOT'd to a new occupation or commissioning through the UTPNCM, SCP programs, etc., who have reached their OFP in their previous occupation and completed at least one posting in that occupation, but have not reached the OFP in their current occupation, are still eligible for IR status. The member however, must still meet all the other criteria in order to receive SE benefits."

"Q15: I am not eligible for IR status. Is there something else I maybe eligible for?
If you are posted an are not eligible for IR status, you maybe eligible for "Unaccompanied Move" benefits. Refer to the Canadian Forces Integrated Relocation Program Directive, APS 2009, A-PP-005IR-AG-001 and contact DCBA."


SE, IR and unaccompanied move benefits are all different and being eligible for one does not entitle you to the other.

Hope this helps, good luck!


----------



## Messerschmitt (5 Mar 2015)

Could anyone please tell me what exactly does getting posted restricted (if married) or authorised (if single) mean in terms of moving circumstances? 

Thanks


----------



## DAA (5 Mar 2015)

Messerschmitt said:
			
		

> Could anyone please tell me what exactly does getting posted restricted (if married) or authorised (if single) mean in terms of moving circumstances?
> 
> Thanks



95% of normal postings after reaching OFP in the CF will start out as "Restricted" for both Married and Single people.  Restricted means that the movement of your DHG&E is not authorized until such a time as you secure permanent accommodations at the gaining unit.  Once you have secured suitable accommodations, then the "restriction" can be lifted and the relocation status changes to "Authorized".

IRP Policy Manual - Sect 1.4 (Definitions)   http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits-relocation/2014-directive-amend-ch-1.page#sec-01-04

Restricted Move
A move to a place of duty to which the Department considers it desirable, or in the public interest, to restrict the move of dependants or Household Goods and Effects or both, until suitable accommodation becomes available.


----------



## Navy_Pete (5 Mar 2015)

Apologize for the necro post,

Looks like I will be going to Halifax on IR this summer for a year or two; I have found the rates for lodgings in CBI 208.997 ($1450/mo for Halifax), and the parking spot at $100/mo, and starting to look for a spot.

So far, looks like there are some spots in the Bedford area with everything all in for the IR rate, and maybe some with partial furnishing/utilities as well.  There are also lots of good unfurnished apartments at reasonable rates with heat/water included and options for renting furniture.

One thing I'm not really clear on, is if the apartment itself doesn't have an 'all in' rate, and I can get the apartment, furniture and any extra utilities separately at or under the ceiling, would it be covered provided I gave the separate receipts for the individual items?  For instance, if I found an unfurnished apt for $1000/month with heat/water incl, then had receipts for power, furniture rental etc, would that still be covered?

Seems reasonable, and that it might actually save the taxpayer some money, so I suspect it won't be feasible.  Anyone have experience with this or know where I might find the reference on it?

Thanks
Pete


----------



## DAA (5 Mar 2015)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> Apologize for the necro post,
> 
> Looks like I will be going to Halifax on IR this summer for a year or two; I have found the rates for lodgings in CBI 208.997 ($1450/mo for Halifax), and the parking spot at $100/mo, and starting to look for a spot.
> 
> ...



Yes, those items would be covered up to the maximum rate.  If you need help, PM me.  I might have some "tips" for you.


----------



## FSTO (5 Mar 2015)

I'm heading home this summer after a couple of years on IR here in Victoria. I have bought some furniture (bed, couch and chair and a couple of side tables) will I be able to bring those items home with me? Or will I have to pay extra?
Cheers


----------



## Ostrozac (5 Mar 2015)

FSTO said:
			
		

> I'm heading home this summer after a couple of years on IR here in Victoria. I have bought some furniture (bed, couch and chair and a couple of side tables) will I be able to bring those items home with me? Or will I have to pay extra?
> Cheers



When you are returning from an IR posting and you are posted back to your original location you are entitled to drive/ship a vehicle and also to ship 500 pounds of UAB. Para 3.4.06 of the IRP directive covers this as a core benefit.

500 pounds doesn't go very far. If you have a literal ton of stuff then you can load up your pickup truck Beverley Hillbillies style for your grand cross Canada driving adventure.


----------



## Navy_Pete (7 Mar 2015)

DAA said:
			
		

> Yes, those items would be covered up to the maximum rate.  If you need help, PM me.  I might have some "tips" for you.



Thanks DAA; have my initial meeting next week, so may have more questions then.

So does that actually mean common sense prevails here?  Will wonders never cease! ;D


----------



## toule (25 Mar 2015)

Hello,

At my recruiting center single members who are house owners were told to bring their proof of mortgage to St-Jean to get exempted of paying the quarters. At St-Jean my instructors told me that I should rent my house and that is not the army's problem. I then ask if I can store my personal effect at crown expense to rent my house while on BMQ and course qualification and they told me that this is only for member's who were renting and not owning property. I've search on this forum and found in old threats other people who were in the same situation and didn’t pay quarters but nobody quoted an actual policy. Can someone help me with that? I can’t find the policy anywhere.

Thanks in advance for your help!


----------



## kratz (25 Mar 2015)

You have a choice, one option or the other. Not both.

1.   Provide proof of mortgage and you will have free quarters at BMQ.

2.  Choose to move your belongings into storage at your own expense and 
reap the benefits (and responsibilities) of renting your house out.

Yes. People joining the CAF who rent (do not own property) have the option of their 
belongings being put into storage. 

The reason you do not have this as an option, is you own your home. Why should taxpayers
offer you free storage and free accommodations, while you earn extra profit renting out your home?

Double-dipping comes to mind.

**Edit: Harris is right. I missed the poor advice your staff  is advising you. Ask to speak with a SISIP Financial Advisor, you are paying into it.


----------



## toule (25 Mar 2015)

kratz said:
			
		

> You have a choice, one option or the other. Not both.
> 
> 1.   Provide proof of mortgage and you will have free quarters at BMQ.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the answer! Like you said I don't want both but one or the other. Do you know the policy? I can't find it anywhere...


----------



## Eye In The Sky (25 Mar 2015)

I love hearing how NCOs at CFLRS are still saying stupid shit.   :

As you are now on BMQ, and don't have time to set up rental stuff, I suggest you submit your request to be exempt paying quarters.


----------



## DAA (25 Mar 2015)

toule said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> At my recruiting center single members who are house owners were told to bring their proof of mortgage to St-Jean to get exempted of paying the quarters. At St-Jean my instructors told me that I should rent my house and that is not the army's problem. I then ask if I can store my personal effect at crown expense to rent my house while on BMQ and course qualification and they told me that this is only for member's who were renting and not owning property. I've search on this forum and found in old threats other people who were in the same situation and didn’t pay quarters but nobody quoted an actual policy. Can someone help me with that? I can’t find the policy anywhere.



Let me help you out and pay very close attention.

Once you have completed both BMQ and your Basic Occupational Training (ie; DP1 or QL3) and are posted for "first time employment", this is what applies to you

Move from Place of Enrolment  --->  http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits-relocation/2014-directive-ch11.page#sec-11-01

Once you have been authorized a relocation under the CFIRP and should you want to "sell" your home at that time, then this is what applies

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits-relocation/2014-directive-ch8.page#art-08-02-02

If at the time of sale and if your home has been "rented" and has NOT remained "vacant", then your home would be considered to be an "income property and will be subject to 8.1.06   http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits-relocation/2014-directive-ch8.page#art-08-01-06

Simply put, if you choose to RENT your home and when the time comes for you to be relocated at public expense, you WILL NOT be entitled to ANY benefits associated with selling that home!!!


----------



## toule (25 Mar 2015)

DAA said:
			
		

> Let me help you out and pay very close attention.
> 
> Once you have completed both BMQ and your Basic Occupational Training (ie; DP1 or QL3) and are posted for "first time employment", this is what applies to you
> 
> ...



I actually don't want to rent since I'll be back home in 6 months (or sell it to move for a new city), but it's quite bad that the army is forcing me to pay for my house + quarters since they can't tell me where I'll work.

I paid close attention at what you said and looked everywhere but couldn't find anything for the time when I'm at BMQ and QL3.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (25 Mar 2015)

The orderly room clerks know the policy and regs.  Provide your mortgage papers and you will not have quarters deducted.   But if you have time to burn on policy and regs vice kit and quarters...

http://Army.ca/forums/threads/106874.0.html


----------



## TCM621 (25 Mar 2015)

toule said:
			
		

> I actually don't want to rent since I'll be back home in 6 months (or sell it to move for a new city), but it's quite bad that the army is forcing me to pay for my house + quarters since they can't tell me where I'll work.
> 
> I paid close attention at what you said and looked everywhere but couldn't find anything for the time when I'm at BMQ and QL3.


It is in the CBI under separation expense, I believe. Search the forum for separation expense.


----------



## sarahsmom (25 Mar 2015)

toule said:
			
		

> I actually don't want to rent since I'll be back home in 6 months (or sell it to move for a new city), but it's quite bad that the army is forcing me to pay for my house + quarters since they can't tell me where I'll work.
> 
> I paid close attention at what you said and looked everywhere but couldn't find anything for the time when I'm at BMQ and QL3.



The army is not forcing you to pay a mortgage and quarters. You were told to provide proof of your mortgage and you will not be charged quarters. 
If you cannot prove you have a mortgage then you will be charged for quarters.


----------



## Harris (25 Mar 2015)

I believe that the issue is actually that the OP has proof and wants to "show" it but his instructors are telling him that he is not allowed to.


----------



## toule (26 Mar 2015)

Harris said:
			
		

> I believe that the issue is actually that the OP has proof and wants to "show" it but his instructors are telling him that he is not allowed to.



Exactly.

So I guess that I'll try again to submit my mortgage! Thank's again for your help!


----------



## TCM621 (26 Mar 2015)

toule said:
			
		

> Exactly.
> 
> So I guess that I'll try again to submit my mortgage! Thank's again for your help!


Have you talked to the clerks or just your instructors? The clerks should be able to clear this up in about 5 minutes.


----------



## toule (9 Apr 2015)

Just to keep everyone updated; my request has been denied. Apparently house owners need to pay quarters since a few years...


----------



## PMedMoe (9 Apr 2015)

Are you talking about rations and not quarters?  Because if so, they are correct.  However, you shouldn't be paying for quarters if you have a mortgage.  I haven't heard of any changes, but then, I could be wrong....   :dunno:

Of course, looking at the CFLRS Joining Instructions, it says if you are _single_, you _must_ pay both R&Q.  No mention of being a homeowner.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (10 Apr 2015)

CFLRS doesn't make up the rules for benefits.  However, this doesn't surpise me.

On what basis was it denied?


----------



## c_canuk (10 Apr 2015)

I've heard in some places R & Q are locked together, but I've also heard you can apply to have yours de linked for situations such as this. 

Also from what I understand the Q part of the linked cost ends up being very little of the total cost.

I would suggest talking to SISIP Financial Manager to see what help you can get.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (10 Apr 2015)

So because it is only $99/month, mbrs at CFLRS should just suck it up and go to SISIP?

 :facepalm:


----------



## Eye In The Sky (10 Apr 2015)

Well, after reviewing the CBI, it appears that the denial of free quarters was in accordance with the CBIs, as you aren't entitled to move at public expense yet IAW current CFIRP policy.  Additionally, as you say you are single I will assume you don't have a dependant residing in your principle residence on a full time basis.  2 strikes.

I am not an admin SME, but here is what CBI Ch 208- Relocation Benefits [CBI 208.997(3)] says; applic parts in yellow.

CBI 208.997 – SEPARATION EXPENSE

208.997(1) (Purpose) The purpose of Separation Expense (SE) is to reimburse Canadian Forces members for some additional living expenses resulting from the short-term separation from their dependants and household goods and effects ((D)HG&E) as a result of relocation within Canada for service reasons.

208.997(2) (Definitions) The following definitions apply in this instruction:

“commercial accommodation” means an accommodation that: 
(a) is at a hotel, motel, tourist home, guest cottage or similar commercial property; 
(b) is publicly available at a published rate; and 
(c) contains no more than one bedroom.

“dependant” means: 
(a) a member’s spouse or common-law partner; 
(b) a member’s, their spouse’s, or their common-law partner’s child — including a stepchild, legal ward, adopted child or child adopted under a Canadian aboriginal custom adoption practice — who is dependent on the member because the child is:
(i) under 18 years of age;
(ii) mentally or physically disabled; or
(iii) under 25 years of age and in fulltime attendance at a school or other education institution that provides training or instruction of an educational, professional, vocational or technical nature; or
(c) a member’s, their spouse’s, or their common-law partner’s relative — a parent, grandparent, brother, sister, uncle, aunt,
niece, nephew or grandchild — who is dependent on the member because the relative is mentally or physically disabled.

“fair market value” means the highest rent — in an open and unrestricted market — of accommodation or furniture agreed to by two
persons who are knowledgeable, informed, prudent and acting independently of each other.

“family housing” has the same meaning as in Charges for Family Housing Regulations (Volume IV of the QR&O, Appendix 4.1
(Changes for Family Housing Regulations)).

“furniture rental” means furniture rented at fair market value from a furniture rental company, but does not include furniture rented with a right to own.

“non-commercial accommodation” means an apartment, condominium or similar residential property that:
(a) the member rents at fair market value from another person; and
(b) contains no more than one bedroom, bathroom, living room and kitchen.

“place of duty” has the same meaning as in paragraph (3) of CBI 208.80 (Application and Definitions)

which states:

“place of duty” means the place at which an officer or non-commissioned member usually performs their normal military duties and includes any place in the surrounding geographical area that is determined to be part thereof by the Chief of the Defence Staff or such other officer as the Chief of the Defence Staff may designate.

“principal residence” means a residential property in Canada that:
(a) is located:
(i) at the place to which the member’s HG&E were last moved at public expense;
(ii) at the place of the member’s HG&E on the date the member enrolled in the Regular Force unless the member has
subsequently moved at public expense
(iv) at any other place of duty, selected place of residence or designated alternative location, to which the member was authorized to move their HG&E at public expense;
(b) is owned or rented by a member; and
(c) but for service reasons, would have been occupied by the member on a full-time basis.

“private accommodation” means an accommodation rented by a member at fair market value and located within a larger
residential property.

“quarters” means an accommodation — without cooking facilities — available to a member at public expense, and includes “government and institutional accommodation” as defined in the National Joint Council Travel Directive, as
amended from time to time.

“Separation Expense” or “SE” means the reimbursement of expenses and payment of allowances identified in this instruction.

“spouse” in relation to a member, does not include a spouse who is living separate and apart, within the meaning of the Divorce Act,
from the member.

208.997(3) (Entitlement) Subject to paragraphs (5) and (6), a member of the Regular Force — or of the Reserve Force who is on Class “C” Reserve Service — is entitled to SE if all of the following conditions are satisfied:

(a) the member’s immediate former place of duty is in Canada;
(b) the member has a principal residence in Canada;
(c) the member is posted to or on that Class “C” Reserve Service at a new place of duty in Canada;
(d) the member is entitled to a move of (D)HG&E at public expense to the new place of duty;
(e) the move of the member’s (D)HG&E at public expense to the new place of duty is, for service reasons, prohibited or restricted, in accordance with orders or instructions issued by the Chief of the Defence Staff;
(f) the member does not move their (D)HG&E to the new place of duty;
(g) the member occupies an accommodation at a new place of duty; and
(h)a dependant occupies the principal residence on a full-time basis.

CFIRP Policy On Entitlement/Eligibility For CFIRP moves at public expense located here

1.1.03 Eligibility application

The following are entitled to relocation benefits under the CFIRP:
•Regular Force members who are posted and Reserve Force members who accept a period of Class "B" or "C" service employment, as per Chapter 13, who are authorized to move their (D) HG&E from one place of duty to another only when the new residence is at least 40 kilometres closer to the new place of duty than the current residence.

(Limitation) CF members who enrol or re-enrol, or transfer from the Reserve Force to the Regular Force, and have not successfully completed basic military occupation or trade training or its equivalent for the occupation or trade for which they enroll, re-enroll or transfer are not entitled to relocation benefits under the CFIRP, unless they:
•have graduated from a Canadian miitary college during their current period of Regular Force service;
•have graduated from a civilian university for which their education was paid by the Canadian Forces during their current period of Regular Force service;
•are a dental, medical or legal office who has successfully completed basic officer training; or
•are a Chaplain recruit, who by virtue of their ecclesiastical mandate received by their respective religious authority, is authorized to exercise pasatoral care.

(TB amended 16 September 2014)

Sorry, I didn't realize or remember that this had changed when the policy changes occurred back in 2012.  They've also stopped using the former "Career Status" definition for CFIRP benefits as well.  I jumped the gun at CFLRS staff - I was staff there in a former life and had to deal with some BS they pulled WRT SE and benefits for my recruits and some OCdts who were getting fucked around.  

Regardless, I was incorrect, the CBI stands.


----------



## c_canuk (10 Apr 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> So because it is only $99/month, mbrs at CFLRS should just suck it up and go to SISIP?
> 
> :facepalm:



Not my intention. My point was that the financial manager at SISIP is more likely to have the contacts that can find out what his options are and know who to call to have a swift kick delivered to those refusing to provide them to him. Based on what he's said his staff and OR are unhelpful. I fail to see who else he may be able to speak to. If the amount he gets back on his paycheque is not enough to off set the Rations cost in his personal budget, he'll already be there for help.

The point of my bringing up the the difference in R&Q not being much, is that he's still not likely to see much relief due to change in policy. 

Having recently been on IR/Unaccompanied I was in a much similar situation. I had not just a house, but a wife and kids to support as well. If I'd been forced to pay for rations I'd have been dipping into my RRSPs.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (10 Apr 2015)

c_canuk said:
			
		

> Not my intention. My point was that the financial manager at SISIP is more likely to have the contacts that can find out what his options are and know who to call to have a swift kick delivered to those refusing to provide them to him. Based on what he's said his staff and OR are unhelpful. I fail to see who else he may be able to speak to. If the amount he gets back on his paycheque is not enough to off set the Rations cost in his personal budget, he'll already be there for help.
> 
> The point of my bringing up the the difference in R&Q not being much, is that he's still not likely to see much relief due to change in policy.
> 
> Having recently been on IR/Unaccompanied I was in a much similar situation. I had not just a house, but a wife and kids to support as well. If I'd been forced to pay for rations I'd have been dipping into my RRSPs.



No worries...as you can see in my previous post, I was way out of my lane and into the pecker-brush WRT the current policy.   :

Oh well...learn something every day they say...


----------



## Spring_bok (11 Apr 2015)

Does anyone know what defines a bedroom within current IR policy?  I would expect that a second bedroom made into a study might be a stretch but an advertised I bedroom plus den might sound more reasonable.  Are there any factors such as windows, closets or square footage that would distinguish a bedroom from a den?  Is there a national guidance or is it a base to base thing?  Any experiences or suggestions?  My destination for IR is Kingston if that helps.


----------



## RADOPSIGOPACCISOP (12 Apr 2015)

Spring_bok said:
			
		

> Does anyone know what defines a bedroom within current IR policy?  I would expect that a second bedroom made into a study might be a stretch but an advertised I bedroom plus den might sound more reasonable.  Are there any factors such as windows, closets or square footage that would distinguish a bedroom from a den?  Is there a national guidance or is it a base to base thing?  Any experiences or suggestions?  My destination for IR is Kingston if that helps.



Generally a bedroom has a closet and a window. If it lacks either of those, I think then it's technically a den. From looking at rental properties, you can't call something a bedroom unless it has a proper egress window (ie designed that a person could escape from it in an emergency)


----------



## mariomike (12 Apr 2015)

RADOPSIGOPACISSOP said:
			
		

> From looking at rental properties, you can't call something a bedroom unless it has a proper egress window (ie designed that a person could escape from it in an emergency)



I'm not familiar with the Ontario Building Code. But, out of curiosity, I read this ( for what it is worth ):

"This may come as a surprise to many people, or a relief to those looking to add a bedroom in the basement, but contrary to the National Building Code and popular brief ( sic ), a bedroom in Ontario does not require an egress window in the actual bedroom! As long as there is an egress window or door to the exterior somewhere on the level, the requirements for egress have been met. However, there are still light and ventilation requirements for each bedroom that must be met, but that is another topic."
http://www.seacliffhomeinspections.com/egress.php


----------



## Spring_bok (12 Apr 2015)

Just wondering what those administering IR are using as a reference.  I am looking at a one bedroom plus den.  The den has French doors, no window or closet.  I would use it for a work study area, not a bedroom.


----------



## toule (13 Apr 2015)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Are you talking about rations and not quarters?  Because if so, they are correct.  However, you shouldn't be paying for quarters if you have a mortgage.  I haven't heard of any changes, but then, I could be wrong....   :dunno:
> 
> Of course, looking at the CFLRS Joining Instructions, it says if you are _single_, you _must_ pay both R&Q.  No mention of being a homeowner.



I'm talking about quarters.

When they denied my request they quoted what Eye In The Sky posted. Apparently there's nothing for single members without dependants due to budget cuts. I'm now in Borden and I wrote an e-mail to my recruiting center and they apologized for the wrong information that they gave [for the last few years at all recruits that went trought that recruiting center]...

Thanks again for your help!


----------



## captloadie (14 Apr 2015)

From my experience, if your lease calls it a one bedroom apartment, then you are okay. Unless thngs have changed, no one actually goes out to inspect your living quarters to check they fall within the regulations.


----------



## IRSpouse (24 May 2015)

Hi there!
Hoping one of you fine people can help me with a couple of questions I have about IR. We're having a hard time selling our house and the kids are I are going to stay while hubby goes IR until it sells. We will then proceed onto the new posting together and purchase (maybe rent - we're going to Toronto) a new home.

I understand the rules about a one bedroom apartment, and that rent is the ONLY thing reimbursed, however I'm wondering what happens if hubby has to sign a lease to attain said accommodations. If we need the apartment for a shorter time than the lease specifies (I hope we will) will the CF cover the lease breaking penalties? Are we expected to find something month-to-month? I've seen a few questions about furnished vs. unfurnished accommodations, will we be allowed a small move of things to furnish an apartment, or do we have to get something furnished?

Thanks for any and all help you can give me!

IRSpouse :nod:


----------



## mariomike (24 May 2015)

IRSpouse said:
			
		

> will the CF cover the lease breaking penalties?



Lease Liability  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/99290.0/nowap.html



			
				IRSpouse said:
			
		

> we're going to Toronto)



Lease Liability for Ontario IRP  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/117693.0



			
				IRSpouse said:
			
		

> I've seen a few questions about furnished vs. unfurnished accommodations, will we be allowed a small move of things to furnish an apartment, or do we have to get something furnished?



IR - furniture rental  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/108573.0

Reply #6 
"If you're going to Toronto, I give high recommendations to IR Solutions." 
http://irsolutions.ca/


----------



## putz (24 May 2015)

I know this has been beaten to death but has anything come down the pipes regarding changes to PLD or a current list of PLD rates?


----------



## Ostrozac (24 May 2015)

putz said:
			
		

> I know this has been beaten to death but has anything come down the pipes regarding changes to PLD or a current list of PLD rates?



No changes have been announced yet (although changes are expected, eventually).

The rates are as published in CBI 205, no change from Tcm621's post two years ago.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits/ch-205-officer-ncm-allowance-rates.page


----------



## PuckChaser (24 May 2015)

The independent review was due 1 Apr 15. We'll see revised rates probably not before 1 Apr 16, or pushing into Apr 17. Thus is Treasury Board.


----------



## Newfie72 (12 Apr 2016)

Can anyone advise me on the current IR policy, what is and isn't covered?


----------



## rbw902 (13 Apr 2016)

Newfie72 said:
			
		

> Can anyone advise me on the current IR policy, what is and isn't covered?



Read CBI 208.997  http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits-relocation/ch-208-relocation-benefits.page

Basically, rent up to a maximum which varies by city, parking costs up to $100, and the connection charges (but not the monthly cost) of cable / internet.

Oh, and LTA once a year to see your family.


----------



## Newfie72 (13 Apr 2016)

Thanks. Do you always have the choice to live outside or is it base depending? Covers heat, lights, etc?


----------



## PuckChaser (13 Apr 2016)

Newfie72 said:
			
		

> Thanks. Do you always have the choice to live outside or is it base depending?



Depending on the area, but some places are really cold outside in the winter.


----------



## Newfie72 (13 Apr 2016)

Lol...how did I know that would be a reply....let me try again. Do you have the choice to live off base or do you have to use military accommodations?


----------



## rbw902 (13 Apr 2016)

Newfie72 said:
			
		

> Thanks. Do you always have the choice to live outside or is it base depending? Covers heat, lights, etc?



Best to check with the base you're going to.  997(7) says quarters if they are available, though I don't see how they can obligate you live without cooking facilities as they are not contributing a cent toward your food bill. 

997.9 - Non-Commercial Accommodations - does include utilities and furniture rental, but the total of rent and those other expenses is still capped at the rate posted for your city. I remember seeing a list somewhere that defined what furniture you were allowed to rent; pretty standard fare, you couldn't choose to go cheap or skip entirely on some things so that you could squeeze a hot tub rental into the budget.

I opted to go the furnished apartment route, and found a basement suite in someone's house that included washer and dryer, cable, and internet, and still came in under the rent ceiling. I didn't want to be incurring any more extra monthly expenses, as there's no way around the fact that you'll be spending more to feed your family out of two kitchens than one.


----------



## PuckChaser (13 Apr 2016)

Newfie72 said:
			
		

> Lol...how did I know that would be a reply....let me try again. Do you have the choice to live off base or do you have to use military accommodations?



I apologize, but sometimes low hanging fruit just can't be left on the tree.


----------



## Newfie72 (14 Apr 2016)

Lol true. If you are on IR do you get PLD?


----------



## rbw902 (14 Apr 2016)

Newfie72 said:
			
		

> Lol true. If you are on IR do you get PLD?



Not for the new location, though you continue to collect it at the old location (if it is a PLD area). Also, from a tax perspective, CRA deems you to be a resident of the province where you have most residential ties, so if your home and your family are in the old province, and you're renting an apartment in a new province, you should likely be filing under the old province. (Ultimately up to you where you file, but if they catch something they don't think is right...)

Where are you going from / to?  PM if desired.


----------



## Newfie72 (14 Apr 2016)

Thanks. Pm sent


----------



## kj_gully (21 May 2016)

Hello everyone. I am hoping someone out there is familiar with Restricted posting (Service Couple) Everybody calls it IR, but it isn't apparently. Anyway, I am posted to Comox, and my wife isn't. I am being told there is no requirement for a HHT as there are quarters available. Where can I find the type of quarters required for IR? I am pretty sure there's a kitchen requirement but I can't find the reference. I have a few more questions specific to Service couples, but they are specific to my situation, so if someone would be willing to off line comms that would be great.


----------



## Good2Golf (21 May 2016)

kj_gully said:
			
		

> Hello everyone. I am hoping someone out there is familiar with Restricted posting (Service Couple) Everybody calls it IR, but it isn't apparently. Anyway, I am posted to Comox, and my wife isn't. I am being told there is no requirement for a HHT as there are quarters available. Where can I find the type of quarters required for IR? I am pretty sure there's a kitchen requirement but I can't find the reference. I have a few more questions specific to Service couples, but they are specific to my situation, so if someone would be willing to off line comms that would be great.



K, you're right that it technically isn't IR when it comes to an MSC split to different locations.  Some call it SB-YOYO (sorry buds, you're on your own) for the manner in which the CAF cares for MSCs.  It its coldest, pure factual dealing with the situation, the CAF considers you and your spouse as independently self-supporting family members, so I'm not sure you get much more than a "you can get a free room in the shacks if you want, if there are some available," but when I was last at a line unit (on IR - got free shacks, but nothing else (SE/separation expense was long dead at that point) - at lease we were eventually allowed to opt out of the stupidly expensive base feeding meal plan when R&Q was officially decoupled)  

I recall what you are referring to about the kitchenette, etc... but I think that now applies only to IR (not separately locates MSCs on Restricted Posting), so you may be getting as much as you're going to get with the "We have shacks, take it or leave it, no HHT/DIT....although I thought DIT still applied....best to check, but I believe CFIRP 2009-2016 still applies:  Section 4.03

4.02 Purpose
[abridged]￼
The purpose of a DIT (destination inspection trip) is to:
- visit the new place of duty and provide the opportunity to:

inspecting replacement residences
inspect purchased property
finalize school arrangement
arrange specific medical requirements / specialized care; or
make administrative arrangements related to the pending relocation

4.03 Entitlement


CF members who have ...are entitled to ...- not secured accommodation at the new place of duty    
- already secured accommodation, purchased property, or officially contracted for the construction of a replacement residence- an HHT.￼- a DIT.

That said, it is more than a year since I had to go rummaging through the policies on this one, so some other folks may be closer to the pulse on current policies of 'support', K.

Good luck and thanks for your continued service doing what you do! :nod:

Regards
G2G


----------



## Lumber (11 Aug 2016)

Hello all, digging up an old thread for a question.

Trying to _prove_ what I already _know_.

You can request an RFD date 30 days on either side of your COS date.

Where is the reference for this? I checked a few of my incoming personnel's posting messages, and it's not on any of them.

Please assist.

Cheers.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (11 Aug 2016)

Military Human Resources Policy Manual...something like that.  I have it at work but am on leave this week.

If you are on the DIN...do a DWAN search for _Report For Duty date _or _Change of Status_, _COS_.  I believe it was in Ch 7 of the ref.  It's been several years since I requested a delayed RFD and I don't have a copy of my memo on my home PC.

Hope this helps get you into the ballpark at least!

Edit -  the pub reference is A-PM-245-001/FP-001, Chap 7, Annex A, Appendix 4, Para 16 (according to my change in RFD memo from a few years ago).

Haven't looked at the ref in a few years, but when I did this, you could move your RFD 30 days left/right of your COS date with agreement between losing/gaining units COs.  Anything beyond 30 days required a new COS date.  That meant a new posting message from Careers, and a new file to be opened with IRP and start that process from Square 1 again.  PITA, I opted for the change in RFD.


----------

