# Wearing of Medals



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Wyn van der Schee <vandersw@cadvision.com>* on *Mon, 6 Dec 1999 20:40:15 -0700*
There was an article on page A4 of the 2 Dec 99 issue of the National Post
headlined "Reform MP seeks to decriminalize wearing of kin‘s war medals."
The gist of it is that some woman named Ballantyne in Victoria wants to
wear her father‘s medals publicly  at Remembrance Day ceremonies, which of
course contravenes the Criminal Code. She has convinced John Reynolds MP to
table a private member‘s bill to remove the offending section from ther
Criminal Code.
Fortunately private member‘s bills seldom if ever get enacted into law, and
it is doubtful if this one will pass. The insidious part of her little
campaign though is her statement that "Britain, Australia and New Zealand,
other commonwealth countries that once had similar laws now allow next of
kin to wear the service medals of their relatives." Surely this is a gross
untruth.
Can any knowledgeable person resident in the UK or the Antipodes and who is
on this means assure me that such is not the case.
 I only receive the digest so please send your responses directly to me as
well as to the newsgroup the digest seems to arrive only once every couple
of weeks.
Wyn van der Schee
Calgary, Alberta
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Gordan Dundas <dundas@prairie.ca>* on *Thu, 09 Dec 1999 00:06:24 -0600*
I‘m not at all sure where I stand on this one......I really don‘t
On one hand the last thing I want to see are those medal dishonoured and yet I
can also understand the intent of the woman ‘s actions.this is one of those
situations that make me think of the saying about life never being simple.
 As I recall the criminal code section came about in order to prevent people
from using them as advertising gimmicks or otherwise debasing them in order to
make money.
 Again I really not too sure where I stand on this. I suspect part of  my
problem is that I know someone who would like to be able to wear his late
father‘s campaign medals as a sort of living memorial to him It also brings him
closer to his father who he lost at an early age
Yet at the same time I worry that we may end up reducing the medals to the
level of decorative jewelry
Wyn van der Schee wrote:
> There was an article on page A4 of the 2 Dec 99 issue of the National Post
> headlined "Reform MP seeks to decriminalize wearing of kin‘s war medals."
> The gist of it is that some woman named Ballantyne in Victoria wants to
> wear her father‘s medals publicly  at Remembrance Day ceremonies, which of
> course contravenes the Criminal Code. She has convinced John Reynolds MP to
> table a private member‘s bill to remove the offending section from ther
> Criminal Code.
> Fortunately private member‘s bills seldom if ever get enacted into law, and
> it is doubtful if this one will pass. The insidious part of her little
> campaign though is her statement that "Britain, Australia and New Zealand,
> other commonwealth countries that once had similar laws now allow next of
> kin to wear the service medals of their relatives." Surely this is a gross
> untruth.
> Can any knowledgeable person resident in the UK or the Antipodes and who is
> on this means assure me that such is not the case.
>  I only receive the digest so please send your responses directly to me as
> well as to the newsgroup the digest seems to arrive only once every couple
> of weeks.
> Wyn van der Schee
> Calgary, Alberta
>
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com>* on *Thu, 09 Dec 1999 19:53:19 -0800*
Gordan and Wyn from Ian Edwards:
Like you Gordan I have mixed feelings about this. There is an old wives
tale that it is OK to wear a deceased relatives medals if such medals
are worn on the left breast rather than the right breast. I‘ve heard
countless people try to tell me that. It ain‘t so. 
I‘ve seen someone in the Army charged for not wearing his ribbons a WW2
vet on callout during SMTP in in 1961. The vet was somewhat of a wino
rather than someone making some kind of a statement.
Perhaps better to see the medals treated with respect than thrown on the
trash can. Just as long as somehow, don‘t know how, the viewer can be
made fully aware that the wearer is not posing as the one who earned the
medals. 
Rather than medals, where I really go ballistic is when I see some hippy
or the modern equivalent wearing some form of uniform including the
shoulder flash!! I‘ve been told that if it‘s an outdated uniform then
its OK to wear same, but it‘s the flash I zero in on. While I just do a
slow burn if it‘s not my old unit I would jump on someone wearing the
flash of my old unit - even if the flash was obsolete pattern. I‘ve
tried to politely explain that wearing the flash is .... but all I‘ve
ever received in response is "piss off". I once called the Military
Police when I found someone wearing a current uniform, but was told they
couldn‘t be bothered to check into it, even though my phone call pointed
out the wearer was in a public building not far away. So, I can see some
people upset that others are wearing not their own medals, even tho they
have the best of intentions.
Gordan Dundas wrote:
> 
> I‘m not at all sure where I stand on this one......I really don‘t
> On one hand the last thing I want to see are those medal dishonoured and yet I
> can also understand the intent of the woman ‘s actions.this is one of those
> situations that make me think of the saying about life never being simple.
>  As I recall the criminal code section came about in order to prevent people
> from using them as advertising gimmicks or otherwise debasing them in order to
> make money.
>
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Grayson McCready" <noduff@HOTMAIL.COM>* on *Thu, 09 Dec 1999 21:31:16 PST*
>Rather than medals, where I really go ballistic is when I see some hippy
>or the modern equivalent wearing some form of uniform including the
>shoulder flash!! I‘ve been told that if it‘s an outdated uniform then
>its OK to wear same, but it‘s the flash I zero in on. While I just do a
>slow burn if it‘s not my old unit I would jump on someone wearing the
>flash of my old unit - even if the flash was obsolete pattern.
This one bugs me too. You try to build  unit identity and esprit by making 
the unit badge something a soldier has to earn and some drillbit can just go 
buy one and slouch around in it.
As far as wearing medals  by ppl who did‘nt win/earn them I‘m against it.  
While I have some sympathy for the widows of vets wearing medals I have a 
problem with offspring or other relatives doing so. It is bad enough already 
with the charlatans and their gongs. Every Remembrance day you see  the 
fakers in the Legions or trying to sneak into a mess, impressive fruit 
salads and just full of bull****. It always seems like they  claim to have 
served in a special forces unit too, never a line unit or in a rear echelon 
job like most soldiers. I feel for the relatives of those who served but 
only those who served should wear the medals.
Vent over.
Cheers
Grayson
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Warrant Bonin" <wo3018@HOTMAIL.COM>* on *Fri, 10 Dec 1999 09:20:10 EST*
I agree, but what about cadets wearing shoulderflashes, and medals?! As a 
cadet, i see lots discracing the forces, but tons like me, hehe that 
actually work to improve the public image. Any thoughts on this?
WO3018
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com>* on *Fri, 10 Dec 1999 22:16:07 -0800*
Edwards to Bonin:
I don‘t have any real problem with cadets wearing the shoulder flash of
their affiliated unit. They are not posing as "soldiers". The wearing of
the flash should be a constant reminder to the wearer that they have a
tradition to live up to, and as they used to say must wear the uniform
in a "smart and soldierly manner." In addition, cadets are part of a
"regimental family" rather than the more narrow "battalion" concept as
such they are an ideal means of placing the name of their regiment in
the eyes of the larger public. For instance my old Regiment, the LEdmnR,
has ten cadet corps througout the Province. Sure, if you have ten corps,
at any given time one or more of the corps must be at a low ebb, poor
morale, leading to sloppy dress from poor leadership, etc. Just natural.
It behooves the affiliated unit to pay more attention to its cadets
rather than be so introverted. Perhaps the sometimes heard disgust by
soldiers about cadets wearing their badges could be paralleled by 4RCR,
4 and 6 R22R as viewed by their Regular counterparts I have no current
knowledge of the state of those PRes units, just using as examples and
the same can be said for the Combat Support, etc. units as well.
As far as medals, as a former CIC Officer, I‘ve noticed a "medal creep"
over the years. Many more cadets wear medals than ever before. While
medals to cadets were once limited to bravery life saving and the very
top marksmanship awards they are much more widely distributed. I‘ve no
real problem - cadets tend to be dressed like Boy Scouts - lit up like
Christmas trees with all their patches, etc. Perhaps that is necessary,
perhaps not. However, I would be more comfortable if the cadet
recipients of medals were restricted to the wearing of medals swing
mounted or court mounted to real ceremonial occasions rather than
weekly parades. For weekly parades I would prefer to see just the ribbon
worn, and perhaps just on the left breast.
There are some non-Army medals permitted to be worn for debateable
reasons, such as the Service Medal of the Order of St. John 12 years
service St. John Ambulance and, if it is still permitted,the Order of
Lazarus of St. John of Jerusalem. I believe that the OLJ could virtually
be "bought" for a donation of several $K and worn. Perhaps someone
will leap to the defence of these medals. Go ahead, I welcome your
rebuttal.
Warrant Bonin wrote:
> 
> I agree, but what about cadets wearing shoulderflashes, and medals?! As a
> cadet, i see lots discracing the forces, but tons like me, hehe that
> actually work to improve the public image. Any thoughts on this?
> 
> WO3018
> 
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Warrant Bonin" <wo3018@HOTMAIL.COM>* on *Sat, 11 Dec 1999 00:51:29 EST*
I agree, thank you. There is another thing of concern. A friend of mine went 
to germany i went to england as part of an international exchange. She 
earned german medals and decorations which she proudly wears on her uniform. 
No regs on this one. Thoughts?
c/WO Bonin
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"W.W.Sadler" <wsadler@sprint.ca>* on *Sat, 11 Dec 1999 12:28:22 -0700*
The only medals authorised to be worn on the cadet uniform are:
Lord Stratcona
Legion Medal of Honour
Bravery Medals
ANAVETS Medal
all others are unauthorised and MUST not be worn. As Ian Edwards said they
are to be worn on ceremonial occasions only and normal parade wear is the
ribbon.
There are no medals awarded by a foreign government that are authorised for
wear, nor are the various shooting medals the cadets earn at Bisley.
Interestingly, theBanff National Army Cadet Summer Training Centre pin now
Rocky Mountain is authorised for wear only one time, the graduation parade.
I agree with Ian that with all the qual badges cadets wear these days they
are looking like Boy Scouts, however the medals are strictly controlled by
CATO‘s.
WW Sadler
Captain
CO 2551 PPCLI Cadet Corps
----- Original Message -----
From: Warrant Bonin 
To: 
Sent: 10-December-1999 10:51 PM
Subject: Re: Medals  Flashes
> I agree, thank you. There is another thing of concern. A friend of mine
went
> to germany i went to england as part of an international exchange. She
> earned german medals and decorations which she proudly wears on her
uniform.
> No regs on this one. Thoughts?
>
> c/WO Bonin
>
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Dave Kenney" <dkenney@telusplanet.net>* on *Sat, 11 Dec 1999 13:48:05 -0700*
In reply to Ian‘s concerns that cadets are wearing the medals on regular
occasions but should be reserved for more ceremonialy events is true.  In
reality, what happens is that in most Cadet Corps, the dress is dictated by
several factors.  The first is that cadets are only issued one uniform - a
dress uniform.  They can vary it by wearing tunic with t-shirt, tunic with
turtle-neck, tunic with dress shirt, tunic with shirt  tie or any of the
previous variations without the tunic - the choice of which is then
dependant on three main factors - weather, training and staff preference.
In any case, they are still in dress pants and parade boots.  Many Corps
then follow a weekly parade format which is a formal parade, complete with
inspection  march past - every week.  Some view this as an indication of
full ceremonial dress - flags, white belts, canes, swords, medals etc.  The
decision is not coming from the cadets themselves, but from the cadet staff
who organize and run the Corps. In agreement with Ian, what the staff should
do is to declare that only truly important parades are designated as full
dress ceremonial like annual inspections, change of commands, promotion
nite, swearing in etc.  The remaining parades should be ribbons only.
Also, Capt Sadler is quite correct in listing the 4 medals normally
authorized for wearing on a cadet uniform.  These medals are authorized by
CATO‘s which states that the authorization is for wearing on the left
breast.  CATO‘s then goes on to make an exception - in the exceptional event
that a "regular" medal is awarded to the cadet, it will be worn on the left
breast and the cadet medals will then be worn on the right breast.
Now for my rant:
The cadets enjoy being awarded and then wearing the badges and medals.  To
them, it is their rite of passage.  It‘s a sign of recognition for their
efforts - at their level.  In a time of their life when they earnestly seek
approval and acceptance from peers and others, these are their signs of
belonging and achieving.  When they get older and more jaded with the
system, some of these desires will pass away.  For now, the only way to
resist negative peer pressure for anyone is the feeling of acceptance lodged
deep within.  In the Cadet system, the first aim is the building of
Citizen-Leaders.  A sense of accomplishment  pride in self is one of the
tools they "earn" by working hard, developing over the years and they
indicate this proudly, with the display of badges, medals, drill canes,
sashes, regimental brass, white webbing, and anything else that senior
cadets can dream up to make themselves look special.  As a civvie manager, I
know that one of the greatest deficiencies in supervisors is commenting to
employees only when things are going bad, and not when things are going
right or as expected.  We should be telling our staff good things all along
the way.  And the same goes with other relationships as well - family,
cadets etc.
Do cadets look like boy-scouts with all their badges?  Many think so.
However, the boy-scout organization has enjoyed a positive image for a good
many years and there is nothing wrong with being a "boy-scout".  It‘s a
proud heritage of service etc.  With the loss of trades training in the Army
Cadets, there is some loss of "look at what I can do".  Lets not take
everything away.
A while ago on this forum, there was some discussion on the value of the CF
medals.  Apparently, the CD s-nickel for example is not valued by some.
As I think about that, I am reminded of a man I knew who refused to cash a
Christmas bonus cheque from his employer. He thought it was an insult
because it was too small to recognize his efforts.  I think some people are
only truly happen when they are miserable, and they have an outlook on life
which is less than positive.  This is truly a general comment and not aimed
at anyone in particular.  Can all this thinking be reconciled with seeing
the wearing of medals cheapened by improper wearing of them?  Is the dismay
at cadets wearing too many badges and medals be a Canadian mindset regarding
the fruit salad worn by many Americans?  I don‘t have any answers to these
questions.  I just pose them for thought.
Dave Kenney
Captain
Commanding Officer
1390 RCA Cadet Corps
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Gareth Green" <gareth@mail.caninet.com>* on *Sat, 11 Dec 1999 22:00:33 -0800*
I have edited some of the original message to comment only on part of the
mailing.
This is not a rebuttal nor am I leaping to the defence of any particular
order or medal - I am neither qualified to do so nor am I well informed
enough to do so.  Having said that - here is my comment:
The wearing of medals awarded to another individual is against the law - all
other sentimental aspects put aside.  I am proud of my own orders,
decorations and medals, and even prouder of those of my mother and father -
however their‘s are on permenent display for the viewing of all visitors to
my home - my own are worn as appropriate.
The "non-Army" what happened to the other two branches of the services
medals you have mentioned are infact two distinct orders.  As in other
situations, some of these orders are recognized by various governemental
bodies and some are not.  The Venerable Order of St. John of Jerusalem is
one such Order that is recognized.  In some quarters the Military Order of
St. Lazaurs of Jerusalem is also recognized.  When you mentioned that the
OLJ could be bought, I was not suprised, as there are individuals out there
who would sell such accutrements to the unwary and the unwise - Caveat
emptor.  I hold the Order of St. Lazarus of Jerusalem as well as the Order
of St. Catherine of Sinia - but I did not buy them.  I was duly nominated
and inducted into both orders.  However, please don‘t get confused with the
term ‘buying‘ when thinking about the genuine articles - as there is a
price to be paid.  This is called a ‘fee of passage‘ and even the recipients
of the Order of the Garter are required to pay a ‘fee of passage.‘
My two cents worth - if anyone is interested
Green
----- Original Message -----
From: Ian Edwards 
To: 
Sent: Friday, December 10, 1999 10:16 PM
Subject: Re: Medals  Flashes
> Edwards to Bonin:
>
> There are some non-Army medals permitted to be worn for debateable
> reasons, such as the Service Medal of the Order of St. John 12 years
> service St. John Ambulance and, if it is still permitted,the Order of
> Lazarus of St. John of Jerusalem. I believe that the OLJ could virtually
> be "bought" for a donation of several $K and worn. Perhaps someone
> will leap to the defence of these medals. Go ahead, I welcome your
> rebuttal.
>
> Warrant Bonin wrote:
> >
> > I agree, but what about cadets wearing shoulderflashes, and medals?! As
a
> > cadet, i see lots discracing the forces, but tons like me, hehe that
> > actually work to improve the public image. Any thoughts on this?
> >
> > WO3018
> >
> > ______________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Warrant Bonin" <wo3018@HOTMAIL.COM>* on *Sat, 11 Dec 1999 23:27:15 EST*
We are also allowed the General Howard award...  I thought i had to share =
>The only medals authorised to be worn on the cadet uniform are:
>
>Lord Stratcona
>Legion Medal of Honour
>Bravery Medals
>ANAVETS Medal
>
>all others are unauthorised and MUST not be worn. As Ian Edwards said they
>are to be worn on ceremonial occasions only and normal parade wear is the
>ribbon.
>
>There are no medals awarded by a foreign government that are authorised for
>wear, nor are the various shooting medals the cadets earn at Bisley.
>Interestingly, theBanff National Army Cadet Summer Training Centre pin now
>Rocky Mountain is authorised for wear only one time, the graduation 
>parade.
>
>I agree with Ian that with all the qual badges cadets wear these days they
>are looking like Boy Scouts, however the medals are strictly controlled by
>CATO‘s.
>
>WW Sadler
>Captain
>CO 2551 PPCLI Cadet Corps
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"W.W.Sadler" <wsadler@sprint.ca>* on *Sun, 12 Dec 1999 09:21:32 -0700*
The General Howard Medal is specific to Army Cadets and is covered under a
separate CATO.     That being said I am sure there are specific medals
attached to both Sea and Air cadets that the Army side doesn‘t see.
To take the discussion to a different level, the only cadet all cadets
qualification that can be carried in to the regular force is the Parachutist
Qualification.
I do agree with Captain Kenny and his rant, but maybe we should be looking
at something that implies you don‘t get this one unless you have the
prerequisite instead of wearing them all.
The uniform accoutrements are a necessary evil, as he states. In our corps
all the bells and whistles are only worn on ceremonial parades and the
monthly CO‘s parade with normal dress being the cadet uniform, ribbons,
canes and sashes.
Capt Sadler
----- Original Message -----
From: Warrant Bonin 
To: 
Sent: 11-December-1999 9:27 PM
Subject: Re: Medals  Flashes
> We are also allowed the General Howard award...  I thought i had to share
=
>
>
>
> >The only medals authorised to be worn on the cadet uniform are:
> >
> >Lord Stratcona
> >Legion Medal of Honour
> >Bravery Medals
> >ANAVETS Medal
> >
> >all others are unauthorised and MUST not be worn. As Ian Edwards said
they
> >are to be worn on ceremonial occasions only and normal parade wear is the
> >ribbon.
> >
> >There are no medals awarded by a foreign government that are authorised
for
> >wear, nor are the various shooting medals the cadets earn at Bisley.
> >Interestingly, theBanff National Army Cadet Summer Training Centre pin
now
> >Rocky Mountain is authorised for wear only one time, the graduation
> >parade.
> >
> >I agree with Ian that with all the qual badges cadets wear these days
they
> >are looking like Boy Scouts, however the medals are strictly controlled
by
> >CATO‘s.
> >
> >WW Sadler
> >Captain
> >CO 2551 PPCLI Cadet Corps
>
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com>* on *Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:19:37 -0800*
To Gareth and others from Ian Edwards:
I‘ll jump back in:
Gareth Green wrote snips:
> > 
> The wearing of medals awarded to another individual is against the law - all
> other sentimental aspects put aside. 
And I agree with the law it‘s the only practical solution, even though
I sometimes sympathize with relatives wishing to honour their deceased,
they should find some other way. At least we can concur the medals have
a very powerful symbolic value, even if the relatives don‘t understand
the reasons the medals were issued invariably most of them are the
common CVSM, etc., ie. "campaign" medals rather than valour - but I
would say that any France-Germany Star [for example] should be
respected, we‘ve had lots of debate about where the front lines were and
if/if not those in the rear entitled to the F-G saw any real action - I
would say all are "heros" in my eyes. But let‘s not start another thread
today.
It‘s a pity the Cdn Gov‘t decided not to stamp the names of the
recipients of WW2 medals on the rim as they did in WW1. 

> The "non-Army" what happened to the other two branches of the services 
Well, Ok, non Canadian Military can‘t say just CF since the context is
often pre-Integration.
  The Venerable Order of St. John of Jerusalem is
> one such Order that is recognized.  In some quarters the Military Order of
> St. Lazaurs of Jerusalem is also recognized.  When you mentioned that the
> OLJ could be bought, I was not suprised, as there are individuals out there
> who would sell such accutrements to the unwary and the unwise - Caveat
> emptor. 
If you re-read my posting I think you will understand that I was not
referring to purchase on the market, but rather the "purchase" for as
you call it a "fee of passage". The OLJ is not listed as authorized in
my copy of a ref on Cdn medals Blatherwick but I recall for sure that
it was OK to wear it 20-25 years ago! It was commonly referred to as
"the Order of the Wandering Jew". And I knew individuals that pure and
simply asked/lobbied to be "nominated", never did a thing to earn the
medal by their admission and PAID a sum of money to purchase it for
wear on a CF uniform!
 I hold the Order of St. Lazarus of Jerusalem as well as the Order
> of St. Catherine of Sinia - but I did not buy them.  I was duly nominated
> and inducted into both orders.  However, please don‘t get confused with the
> term ‘buying‘ when thinking about the genuine articles - as there is a
> price to be paid.  This is called a ‘fee of passage‘ and even the recipients
> of the Order of the Garter are required to pay a ‘fee of passage.‘
> 
> My two cents worth - if anyone is interested
> 
> Green
See your two and raise you two.
Ian
>
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