# Intelligence Officer / Operator



## future_soldier

I am interested in this MOC, however on the recruiting page it is not listed and I was unable to find any information about it anywhere else. Anything anyone can tell me about it would be great.. do you go through another MOC and then transfer? or whats the deal?


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## Korus

In the regs, you have to be in another MOC first, they won‘t just take you off the street. In the res,  some units might take you off the street, others will only take you if you‘ve been in another MOC>


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## klumanth

Yes, you need something like 4 years in another MOC before you can go intel.  Talked with some int guys, nothing specific but it sounded like a good trade to be in.


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## ender

You don‘t nessesarilly need four years in, but you do need significant experience.  (regs, and reserves)  They prefer you to be Cpl qualified in your trade.  Intel is someting to think about later on as a possibility; first, pick a trade you think you would be happy in.


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## humint

I went by a CFCR yesterday to get the trade info on Intel (82) and the clerk gave me the MOC info for Military Police Officer/Security Officer (81). He said that they don‘t have info for Intel and that the best they could do was MPO. He also mentioned to me that the BEST WAY in to the Intel trade was to become an MP.

Anyone have any experience with, on knowledge about, this?


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## Korus

You can also remuster into INT from other trades than MP, i.e. combat arms..

Here are some websites that deal with INT, so you can get an idea of what it‘s all about..

 http://www.airforce.forces.ca/air_reserve/Recruiting/intelligenceoperator_e.cfm 
This site deals with MOC111 Intelligence Operator, the NCM side of int..

 http://www.airforce.forces.ca/air_reserve/Recruiting/intelligenceofficer_e.cfm 
MOC82...

 http://www.intbranch.org 
The Intelligence Branch Association.

How‘s that for information collecting skills


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## mplourde

Having a degree I was told that I could start as an officer in the army. Plus, it is a computer degree therefore it would be convenient for me to enter into millitary intelligence. But, I am also ready to go on missions on distant areas. I am very physically fit and have great fighting skills. Is there a way to have a platoon as a sargeant and be in the millitary intelligence.

Mario Plourde
trexhunter34@hotmail.com
(204) 453-9199


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## ark

Make sure you know what is expected from officers before you apply, just because someone has a degree doesn't mean he has what it takes to succeed. 



> Is there a way to have a platoon as a sargeant and be in the millitary intelligence.



What do you mean by "having a platoon" ? By the way sergeants are not commissioned officers.


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## humint

SUGGESTION:

I really think that a MIL-INT section needs to be created to breakdown the freakin' myths of the INT world, and to give a hand to the young pups interested in the field. This would also (well, hopefully) cut down on redundant question traffic.

Also it has been said a million times, the best place for you to start (since there is not an INT readonly advice section on this board) is to talk to people in an INTCOY or to your local recruiter. Although, I must admit that the local recruiter will likely not know all that much about the INTfield other than the basics.


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## johnny_boy

http://army.ca/forums/threads/23892.0.html


It was like 3 posts down.


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## ReadyAyeReady

So I got a call from the CFRC today and was told that I had been merit-listed for Int Officer.  Despite the fact that I asked the recruiter several times what being merit listed entails exactly I was not really given a clear response.  I was just told that the next DEO selection board will meet in the spring so I have to wait until then.  Now this may sound stupid, but what exactly does "merit-listed" mean?  Is it just a nice way of saying that "you didn't make the cut so we've stuck you on a waiting list"?  Is it just a glorified waiting list? Or does it mean that when some spots open up I will be given consideration?  Or does it mean something else?

I did a search on merit-listing and came up with loads of hits.  It seems to me that everyone knows what merit-listed means except me.  I've heard the term used several times but am not quite clear on what happens when you get merit-listed.  Does this mean that I will eventually get an offer or will I just be banging my head against the wall until my file closes?  Especially with the Int trade which is pretty selective.

Basically, I'm just looking for some straight up info on the merit-listing process and how it affects the selection process.

Cheers.


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## Pieman

Hi ReadyAyeReady,

I was merit listed for Engineer Officer for a while before I got my offer. You are in a certain position on the merit list. From what I understand this means that you were selected at the selection board, but they did not have enough slots to train you this time around. That means you sit on the list until a training slot opens up, and you will be given your official offer at that point. You will be offered this position before anyone else in the spring selection board. 

So it is good news, but there is a little more waiting to be done.


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## kincanucks

Merit listed means that you have met all the eligibility and suitability requirements for your file to go to the selection board for your chosen occupation.  It does not mean you have a job or that you have been selected for a job it means you now wait for the next selection to see if you are competitive enough to get a job offer.

Pieman,

You haven't learned a damn thing as you are referring to being wait listed after a selection board. ;D

Clear as mud?


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## Pieman

> Pieman,
> 
> You haven't learned a darn thing as you are referring to being wait listed after a selection board.
> 
> Clear as mud?


Doh! Sorry, didn't realise they were two different things. You can have the rest of my tea.  :warstory:


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## kincanucks

Pieman said:
			
		

> Doh! Sorry, didn't realise they were two different things. You can have the rest of my tea.   :warstory:



I had already taken it. ;D


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## ReadyAyeReady

Merit listed means that you have met all the eligibility and suitability requirements for your file to go to the selection board for your chosen occupation.  It does not mean you have a job or that you have been selected for a job it means you now wait for the next selection to see if you are competitive enough to get a job offer.

Okay.  So if I was told yesterday that I was merit-listed then what DEO selection board will I be considered for?  Is it the current one or is it going to be later?


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## kincanucks

ReadyAyeReady said:
			
		

> Merit listed means that you have met all the eligibility and suitability requirements for your file to go to the selection board for your chosen occupation.   It does not mean you have a job or that you have been selected for a job it means you now wait for the next selection to see if you are competitive enough to get a job offer.
> 
> Okay.   So if I was told yesterday that I was merit-listed then what DEO selection board will I be considered for?   Is it the current one or is it going to be later?



_I was just told that the next DEO selection board will meet in the spring so I have to wait until then. _


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## ReadyAyeReady

Sorry, I'm just a little confused that's all.  Because the guy who called me yesterday said to wait until the spring, while my MCC, who I talked with today, says that if I don't hear from them in january then I should call them to find out what's going on.  So my MCC made it sound like I was going to be on this board while the other guy I talked to, who I had never even spoken to before, said I wait until spring.

I don't want to start a gripe session but I honestly can't get a clear answer from anyone at the CFRC.  That's why I posted this in the first place.

I guess I'll just wait until the call me.


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## Zertz

Hey folks. I've recently done my CFAT and other tests for the Army Reserve, I'm stuck with V4 vision but that doesn't mean I can't get in on an interesting trade that I can get alot out of (RMS Clerk, a very vital CSS trade). My Interviewer, after checking out my CFAT score, suggested I look into the ROTP when the time comes around (I'm in Grade 10 at the moment) and I've always been drawn to Intelligence. I see that recently Intelligence has been openned to ROTP.

I know that Intelligence Officers work in analysis, supervization of operators, and dissemenation but I am curious do they ever work in data collection, for example interrogation. Who is it exactly that collects intelligence, especially HUMINT? Do Intelligence Officers do this in addition to analysis and dissemenation?


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## muffin

Collection of Int is done by many level of operator both in the Intelligence trade and out.

HUMINT courses are run for anyone who is suitable, you do not have to be int to get them. 

As an Int Op (NCM) I collected SIGINT... but that was just my tasking. Others did map work, some did analysis...

I am not sure my IntO did any collection, I never saw him do any any, but that doesn't mean that he didn't. He did mostly colaltion, analysis and dissemination.... perhaps Journeyman can fill in on the Int O role (*snicker*)

You mentioned RMS Clerk, so I am not sure if you are looking at NCM trades as well, and am by no means an expert on the vision requirements for them, but you may want to check out Sig Op and Comm Research too - they may be of interest to you, if you qualify.

muffin


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## Zertz

Going Clerk right now to get some experience before trying for ROTP where I'm kind of set on taking Poli Sci. Thanks for the info on data collection, appreciated.


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## Centurian1985

Zertz said:
			
		

> Do Intelligence Officers do this in addition to analysis and dissemenation?



They and the Int Ops can have widely varying duties depending on their element, unit they work at/with, size of unit, location, and task.


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## TCBF

"Going Clerk right now to get some experience before trying for ROTP where I'm kind of set on taking Poli Sci. Thanks for the info on data collection, appreciated. "

- Good plan.  The 'secretarial'/IS skills you pick up as a clerk should help you both at Civ U and as an IO.


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## Journeyman

Zertz, there are currently seven postings on this thread; four of them are yours. 

Since Intelligence Officers seem to spend a lot of time talking to themselves - - you're a natural  >


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## paracowboy

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Zertz, there are currently seven postings on this thread; four of them are yours.


Not anymore, there aren't J. Thanks for pointing that out, though.


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## Centurian1985

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Since Intelligence Officers seem to spend a lot of time talking to themselves - - you're a natural  >



Is that implying some form of mental ailment or because no one wants to be their friend?


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## Zertz

Teehee, natural eh? Sorry if I was a tad post happy in the ol' thread, still would love to get in contact with an Intelligence Officer, Reg or Reserve.

I tried contacting 5 Platoon, 6 Company out of Winnipeg but apparently they're quite busy and unable to check voicemail. Any other suggestions? 

*goes back to talking to himself*

Edit: To Clarify - I've gotten good responses from two folks here, which I thank again, but I've got some specific questions as you can understand.


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## simonsimon

Hey there. I'm a university student finishing a degree in economics, and I'm looking to become an intelligence officer. I'm wondering if anybody has more information about the recruitment process, beyond what's already on the website ( http://www.recruiting.forces.gc.ca/v3/engraph/jobs/jobs.aspx?id=82&bhcp=1  ). I remember reading somewhere that you have to be in the army for a couple of years before going into the intelligence stream. Is that right? Does anybody have any experience in this regards? thanks


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## DannyD

simonsimon said:
			
		

> Hey there. I'm a university student finishing a degree in economics, and I'm looking to become an intelligence officer. I'm wondering if anybody has more information about the recruitment process, beyond what's already on the website ( http://www.recruiting.forces.gc.ca/v3/engraph/jobs/jobs.aspx?id=82&bhcp=1  ). I remember reading somewhere that you have to be in the army for a couple of years before going into the intelligence stream. Is that right? Does anybody have any experience in this regards? thanks



I applied for Int O a month and a half ago. The trade is undermanned, so they are indeed accepting DEO applicants. However, in my case, from the time I applied up to my CFAT (one month), the trade had been closed (they told me that while I was getting my medical scheduled). At CFRC Montreal, they told me that there was one vacant post left (out of the only 3 they had to fill), but they already had selected 11 applicants for it. So, to continue with the recruiting process, I would have to wait until they re-opened the trade in the coming months, only to get my name on the long list.

This being said, you can apply, but be warned that the trade is VERY competitive. 

What I've decided to do, instead, is to enrol in another trade as an NCM, get military experience, and eventually re-muster in the intelligence trade (I want to start as a NCM, to know the job inside out before applying to become an officer). It will make the learning curve much more manageable, as knowing the details of military ops (especially from the combat arms point of view) is ESSENTIAL to the job. The more you know the military world beforehand, the more efficient you can be on the job. This is one of the reasons why they prefer applicants with previous military experience.

Now, if you're not selected for DEO, but still want to have a shot at the trade, there is another option for you. You can apply to a Int Reserve unit. They are short on personnel, and there are possibilities for working full time (they need people who can be deployed overseas) even though you're not in the Regs. However, in this case, forget about entering as an officer, you'll have to start as Int Op (but you can work your way up once you're in the unit, as they usually prefer to promote their officers from their own ranks). 

Hope this helps.

P.S. Oh, by the way, there are also a bunch of topics on this forum about details concerning the application process for Intelligence. And since this trade is all about finding information, I'll let you start practicing and search for them...

_Edited to add P.S._


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## George Wallace

......and there are other topics on the site that may also help answer your questions.

Even as a Reservist, you can find full time work as an INT Op, depending on your location.  The chances of deploying after completing your QL5A Crse are very good, should you so desire.   The chances are fewer as an officer - a numbers game.

Visit the CFRC and ask about oportunities in both the Reg and Res Forces.  If there is a unit nearby, pay them a visit or give them a call.


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## edgar

Is Naval Intelligence with the Nav Res a good route? I understood they integrated, no longer Naval Control of Shipping, I wonder how that is going?


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## mtdnavy

Entering DEO as intelligence is very tough to get. I know some very qualified candidates with graduate degrees in relevant studies who have been turned down.



			
				edgar said:
			
		

> Is Naval Intelligence with the Nav Res a good route? I understood they integrated, no longer Naval Control of Shipping, I wonder how that is going?



It is quickly filling up, but it can be a good route. It is still integrated with NCS (now called Naval Co-operation and Guidance of Shipping (NCAGS)). In addition to your Int training you also take a course in NCAGS so you're qualified in both. The BIOC you take is equivalent to the reg force's navy element standard. If you were to go reg force from navres, you would only need to do CAP and if not going navy, your specific element Int trg. The old rule was you had to have 3 years of class B (or equivalent) time in before transferring to reg force Int but that doesn't seem to apply now. As a reservist, you can still find reg force jobs to fill.


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## Greymatters

It is the opinion of a small minority that the DEO category was not created so that young, bright and well-educated people from university without security clearances could become Int O's.  It is quite likely it was created so old and suitably experienced military Int O's with security clearances could retire and come back into the same department as civilians (and union members).


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## George Wallace

Greymatters said:
			
		

> It is the opinion of a small minority that the DEO category was not created so that young, bright and well-educated people from university without security clearances could become Int O's.  It is quite likely it was created so old and suitably experienced military Int O's with security clearances could retire and come back into the same department as civilians (and union members).



Interesting comment.  

I must ask you a question.  What makes one with a Degree and no military experience so much better a candidate for DEO Int O, than NCMs with several degrees already doing the job?  What would that person feel, knowing that they knew a lot less about the job, the military, and life in general than their subordinates?  

Sorry.  I guess that was two questions.  I see a lot of that these days, as well as High School kids who know so much more than I think they know.   :-\


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## Greymatters

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Interesting comment.  I must ask you a question.  What makes one with a Degree and no military experience so much better a candidate for DEO Int O, than NCMs with several degrees already doing the job?  What would that person feel, knowing that they knew a lot less about the job, the military, and life in general than their subordinates?  Sorry.  I guess that was two questions.  I see a lot of that these days, as well as High School kids who know so much more than I think they know.   :-\



Personally, I dont think replacing experienced NCMs (degree or not) or Into O's with civilians who have degrees but no military experience is the right thing.  Other minds think differently on the subject.


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## George Wallace

That, they do.


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## dwalter

For intelligence right now they are also accepting ROTP applications for IntO. That is what I am applied for. There are 11 open spots for the Feb review cycle. The kind folks in the recruiting office told me that I had a pretty good shot at getting into the ROTP program for it at my current civvi university. It seems like it's one of those trades that needs people to fill the positions, along with so many others. Then again it was nothing like the LogO which had 60 ROTP spots this cycle...


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## medaid

dwalter said:
			
		

> It seems like it's one of those trades that needs people to fill the positions...



The Branch NEVER just needs people to fill the positions EVER. 

That goes with the CF in general, but unfortunately useless people still get through and cause havoc on others. 

I still think that Int should be a remuster only MOC on both NCM and Officer levels.


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## dwalter

Sorry I didn't mean to make it sound like they just needed the bodies for the sake of numbers. I meant that it seems like they may be legitimately short staffed of good people. CSIS recruits their intel officers out of universities, so I think it is logical if the CF does the same for the intel branch, at least for the intel officers.


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## IntlBr

I too am up for this round of selections.  Apparently I've been "accepted" to RMC and CivvyU already, so I hope that boots my chances, along with being a Reservist already.


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## blacktriangle

dwalter said:
			
		

> Sorry I didn't mean to make it sound like they just needed the bodies for the sake of numbers. I meant that it seems like they may be legitimately short staffed of good people. CSIS recruits their intel officers out of universities, so I think it is logical if the CF does the same for the intel branch, at least for the intel officers.



Intel makes processors...  ;D


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## -rb

dwalter said:
			
		

> CSIS recruits their Intel officers out of universities, so I think it is logical if the CF does the same for the Intel branch, at least for the Intel officers.



I'm not sure where you are going with this one? The CF does indeed recruit people from universities IE. DEO/ Civi ROTP applicants. See GW's post above...



			
				MedTech said:
			
		

> I still think that Int should be a re-muster only MOC on both NCM and Officer levels.


+1


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## medaid

dwalter said:
			
		

> CSIS recruits their intel officers out of universities, so I think it is logical if the CF does the same for the intel branch, at least for the intel officers.



A military intelligence officer must know their element's function almost inside and out. They need to be able to think like the enemy and observe, analyze and critique information that has been gathered, then siphon it into one clean neat end result. In order for you to do that, you need have experience in the setting in one of the trades that you will eventually have to provide information to. 

Your experience with one or two or three previous MOCs will only aid you in better decision making, and allow a Int Op or Int O to better understand what everyone else is doing, and what type of information they might possibly need. 

CSIS is a whole different animal. You're comparing apples and oranges. 

Also what popnfresh said, Intel makes processors, Int is what we use and do to make us look like James Bond.


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## scoutfinch

MedTech said:
			
		

> I still think that Int should be a remuster only MOC on both NCM and Officer levels.



I think you are wrong.  Very very wrong.  But we can discuss that offline some time.


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## NCRCrow

an INTO without any medals!

No thanks, just another glorfied university educated DEO who can use spell check!

Do at least 6 years in an operational trade/element and then join the INT branch. 

Everybody is tired of listening to INTO's with no experience briefing operational teams with not even a tour under there belt. 

Just the battlefields of CFB Kingston.

What a joke!


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## dwalter

Well unfortunately for me I can't go into an 'operational' trade first because I have a V4 vision category, so they told me unless I wanted to be a LogO I should apply for Intel. I chose it because it is interesting work in my mind, and because my vision stopped me from getting my first choice in careers. Don't most IntOs operate under a senior IntO for one tour anyways for OJT?


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## aesop081

dwalter said:
			
		

> I should apply for Intel.



its INT.....in this country we say INT


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## dwalter

Sorry, I guess I'll get used to the official abbreviations soon enough. On the topic of knowing your element though, does anyone know what kinds of differences there would be for an Air Force INT O?


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## Greymatters

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> an INTO without any medals!



These things happen - it takes time for an Int O to get their first tour, just like any other trade. 



			
				HFXCrow said:
			
		

> No thanks, just another glorfied university educated DEO who can use spell check!



Are you putting all Int O's into one basket here?  I can assure they are not all this way.



			
				HFXCrow said:
			
		

> Do at least 6 years in an operational trade/element and then join the INT branch.



At least 4, but otherwise I wouldnt disagree...



			
				HFXCrow said:
			
		

> Everybody is tired of listening to INTO's with no experience briefing operational teams with not even a tour under there belt.



This is true, but not neccesarily the fault of the 'no-tour officer' giving the presentation.  This is the fault of whoever decided to have this inexperienced Int O give the presentation when it should be done by someone who has had at least one tour in or near the region in question.  There are some out there who insist that the person doing the presentation be an officer regardless of the Int O's experience level.


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## Greymatters

dwalter said:
			
		

> Sorry I didn't mean to make it sound like they just needed the bodies for the sake of numbers. I meant that it seems like they may be legitimately short staffed of good people. CSIS recruits their intel officers out of universities, so I think it is logical if the CF does the same for the intel branch, at least for the intel officers.



The Int trade is not 'short-staffed', this is an incorrect observation, but rather has a sudden demand for support that is bigger than the Int trade can support.  This is what happens when for decades the higher levels think they dont need intelligence support for their missions, or that they can do it themselves better, or when they do get it you need more than just 1 or 2 to do the job properly. 

Also, the CF operates in areas where the opposing or threat force is normally a proper military force or a force trained in using military tactics.  If you dont understand military tactics, you cannot effectively understand the actions of your opponent, or predict what they will do next.  Int personnel also need to understand the way that the people they are working for think and act, use same the common language, understand internal porcesses, and finally, know how to interpret orders.  University students have a greater challenge in doing this than those who come in from four years experience from other trades.  Its not something you learn from a two-month familiarization course...


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## lou-reed

As a retired INT O I am going to add this for thought.  Over the past several years I have seen some very good INT Os come in from Combat arms trades.  Most of them have had several tours and a lot of operational experience.  Some are good INT Os, others not so good.  However, they do not come with experience as an INT O.  Unfortunately, just as in any other trade this experience is only gained on deployment.  Thus, until an INT O has deployed in the capacity as an INT O he/she really has no more experience at doing their job in a theatre of war than a DEO would have on their first deployment.  Up until 2001 how many INT Os and INT Ops really knew a lot about the Taliban and Al-Qaida...Not that many - myself included.  It is knowledge we have gained over the past six years and from being in theatre.  

The real issue here is that people are too closed minded to consider the advantages of allowing DEOs into the INT branch.  I say give it a try - see how the first few make out.  Do not send them to Ottawa but send them to the brigades so they will be immersed in the environment.  Deploy them as soon as possible.  If it does not work out then we know for next time.  Until then, nothing ventured nothing gained.  

The bread and butter of the INT O and INT Op is to be able to analyze the information that they are seeing.  Analyze the threat and tell the commander on the ground what he/she really needs to know. 

I have seen first hand INT Os and INT Ops who have a lot of combat arms experience but lack the necessary skills needed to conduct proper and sound analysis.  When this happens there is no value added and credibility wanes.  

Perhaps a DEO would require a bit of mentoring (but then who hasn't) and this could be done during the pre-deployment phase.  I personally would much rather take a green DEO civi U type with no operational experience who has sound analytical skills with the ability to express those skills than an ex-combat arms type who cannot write or spell or be nothing more than a news reporter.

But, hey, I am retired so I guess this debate will have to go on without me.


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## -rb

lou-reed said:
			
		

> I have seen first hand INT Os and INT Ops who have a lot of combat arms experience but lack the necessary skills needed to conduct proper and sound analysis.  When this happens there is no value added and credibility wanes.



Out of curiosity is that not the fault of the INT selection process and standards during training?(not saying that it's lacking in any way) It goes without saying I guess that a good combat arms vet does not necessarily make a good INT O/Op or whatever else for that matter. 

I realise that the training one receives is only an indicator of the future success a member may have while employed in his trade...but given the critical importance of INT perhaps some red flags should have went up before these member were posted or operational? 

cheers.


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## lou-reed

Let's face it, every trade has training and standards issues.  

My main point is give the DEO course of action a chance to either prove successful or unsuccessful.  Maybe there is a requirement to put them through CAP and/or phase III infantry first then on to BIOC.  Just a thought.  Afterall, a newly commissioned 2LT in the infantry has no more operational experience than a newly commissioned INT O yet no one seems to think the infantry officer will not succeed.  Both require maximum mentoring from the Snr NCM level.    Just my thoughts


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## Greymatters

At least they are good ones and worth considering.  I agree that there are advantages to having a DEO, but IMO so far not enough to convince me they are worth more than OT transfers.  Many of the points you bring up as valid problems can in turn be rectified by improvements to the selection process, and more 'in-trade' courses to improve writing and analytical skills.


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## -rb

lou-reed said:
			
		

> Let's face it, every trade has training and standards issues.



Agreed...100%



			
				lou-reed said:
			
		

> My main point is give the DEO course of action a chance to either prove successful or unsuccessful.  Maybe there is a requirement to put them through CAP and/or phase III infantry first then on to BIOC.  Just a thought.  Afterall, a newly commissioned 2LT in the infantry has no more operational experience than a newly commissioned INT O yet no one seems to think the infantry officer will not succeed.  Both require maximum mentoring from the Snr NCM level.    Just my thoughts



As it stands now, watch and shoot
cheers.


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## scoutfinch

Greymatters said:
			
		

> At least they are good ones and worth considering.  I agree that there are advantages to having a DEO, but IMO so far not enough to convince me they are worth more than OT transfers.  Many of the points you bring up as valid problems can in turn be rectified by improvements to the selection process, and more 'in-trade' courses to improve writing and analytical skills.



I don't have a problem with INT being opened to DEO for exceptional candidates depending on what skills they bring to the table.

What do people think about ROTP/RMC INT Os?


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## George Wallace

I personally feel that they are coming in lacking in many of the issues Greymatters has been bringing up.  I think that DEO are not good for the INT Branch in the vast majority of cases.  The Branch does suffer from many personalities that shouldn't be giving anyone advice other than Steven Staples.  There is a lot of "Corporate Knowledge" being brought to the Branch by INT Ops and INT Os who have OT ed.  There is a lot of training that can be cut from the QL5 and BIOC due to their having this "Corporate Knowledge".  They already have working knowledge of what ORBATs are and how they function on both Blue and Red Force models.  They usually have good Map and Map Marking Skills.  They know how the CF functions and is structured.  They are usually physically fit and know how to wear their uniforms and handle a wide variety of weapons.  They have usually picked up other skills that are IT related, interests in Imagery, interests in Foreign weapons and vehicles, etc.  All qualities that many DEO candidates are lacking and would have to be extensively trained in.  

The worse thing that the INT Branch can do, is put a slovenly INT Op or INT O in front of a group of Cbt Arms types and expect them to garner anything of value from that briefing.  Image means a lot; both visual and spoken.  If an INT O or and INT Op can't walk the walk and talk the talk, they are hamstrung from the get go.  A DEO who can analyze better than any man on the face of the planet, and use big words that an Infanteer can only guess at, is totally ineffective.  

Can an effective INT O be culled from the DEO herd?  I guess the answer could be a "Yes"; but I feel that this would be one heck of an exceptional person.


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## Greymatters

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Can an effective INT O be culled from the DEO herd?  I guess the answer could be a "Yes"; but I feel that this would be one heck of an exceptional person.



Ive met a few and they were indeed exceptionally bright, able to adapt to the new environment, and great fun to work with.  Unfortunately they were the exception and not the standard.  'Minimum standards' during recruitment would not be likely to capture the same level of competence these people had, and of note none of these men and women I use as an example of good DEO candidates were right out of university, they each had quite a few years of experience in the private business sector under their belt.


----------



## meni0n

But, not all OTs into Int are from combat arms. What if you have a sailor OTing into Army Int op.


----------



## Greymatters

meni0n said:
			
		

> But, not all OTs into Int are from combat arms. What if you have a sailor OTing into Army Int op.



Its been done.


----------



## meni0n

I know it can be done, I was referring to George's post about knowing ORBATs, combat experience and cutting the QL5As on the assumption that all individuals getting the OT are combat arms.


----------



## George Wallace

meni0n said:
			
		

> I know it can be done, I was referring to George's post about knowing ORBATs, combat experience and cutting the QL5As on the assumption that all individuals getting the OT are combat arms.



So?  They still bring a lot of "Corporate Knowledge", no matter what Trade.  They understand how the CF and other Nations militaries work.  They still have knowledge of Naval ORBATs.  They also don't usually go "Army", so that is a misleading statement, as they would/could take their "Naval" experience into the SEA side of the Branch.  Same goes for AIR.  Not everything in INT is Army.  So anyone with previous "Corporate Knowledge" gained from prior Service would require less 'indoctrination' than a person hired straight off the street.

Greymatters has pointed out that some exceptional people have come in off the street, but they have usually had the required skill sets developed over time in 'the profession' (in other agencies) or in a 'corporate environment' as a professional; not as a freshly graduated university student.


----------



## Greymatters

meni0n said:
			
		

> I know it can be done, I was referring to George's post about knowing ORBATs, combat experience and cutting the QL5As on the assumption that all individuals getting the OT are combat arms.



Ive looked it over again, but I dont see the reference or the inference that all individuals getting the OT are combat arms... but then I dont agree with everything in George's comment.  Some basics you have to include to ensure all trade candidates have the same basic skill level, unless you move it from the training aspect to the selection aspect, then it would work.


----------



## Franko

meni0n said:
			
		

> I know it can be done, I was referring to George's post about knowing ORBATs, combat experience and cutting the QL5As on the assumption that all individuals getting the OT are combat arms.



Anyone can OT to the Int trade but combat arm troops are in high demand by the Army Int environment itself. It would be the same for every other element I would think.

Regards


----------



## meni0n

But there is a chance that they might be told they will have to switch uniforms or they've requested it by personal choice. I am all for the INT trade being OT only. 

Recce, indeed they are but that doesn't guarantee that someone from a non combat arms trade not get his OT into the army element.


----------



## George Wallace

meni0n said:
			
		

> But there is a chance that they might be told they will have to switch uniforms or they've requested it by personal choice. I am all for the INT trade being OT only.



You are correct.  Right now the Air side is taking in the majority of OT, VOT, CT and Re-enrollees.


----------



## Franko

meni0n said:
			
		

> Recce, indeed they are but that doesn't guarantee that someone from a non combat arms trade not get his OT into the army element.



There are no guarantees IRT an OT.       

Regards


----------



## lou-reed

Another point to consider is that, due to manning shortfalls, many INT positions are being filled by Air and Navy INT Os and INT Ops.  The ASIC is full of air and navy personnel - and they quickly learn about the army way of things.  Let's not forget that the ASIC also has civilians doing analysis - these civilians, many have no military experience other than being paid by DND.  From my experiences, absolutely excellent people to work with and have excellent knowlegde of how the military works.  I do not see what the difference is from a civilian or a DEO?

Besides, I do not recall ever starting any of my briefings with my resume.  INT is personality based - the commander will either be receptive to what you tell him/her or will not.  

Again, it comes down to keeping an open mind.  I stand by my earlier post of giving DEO a try.


----------



## Greymatters

lou-reed said:
			
		

> INT is personality based - the commander will either be receptive to what you tell him/her or will not.



Are you refering to the personality of the briefer, or the commander, or both?


----------



## simonsimon

Hey guys, thanks a lot for the information and opinions. I appreciate the discussion about the value of DEO candidates too. Although it seems most are skeptical, I am still intent on exploring this possibility, and have more questions regarding the job in general and the recruitment process. I've been to the CFRC and called the local Int Coy (although they don't seem to pick up the phone), but am interested in sounding out the forum for perhaps better-informed opinions

I'm currently learning Pashto in the hope of doing a DEO, starting BOTC this Fall, completing CAP and BIOC by the end of 2009, and deploying to Afghanistan in 2010. I want to know if this is realistic.

1. Is it possible to complete BOTC, CAP and BIOC within a year? Do IntO even have to do CAP? And how often is the BIOC offered in the year? Once you've finished those, is it possible to start training for deployment immediately - and how long does this last? 6 months like for infantry?

2. How does selection for deployment work? Do you apply for it? Are you assigned according to relevant skills?

3. If you know the local language on a deployment, what kind of different work could you be expected to do? Would you ever be going off base and talking to locals, or more translating enemy documents on-base?

4. Do any Int O work on PRTs?

5. When you're not on deployment and are working at your local Company, what kind of work are you doing exactly? Are you working with deployed forces?

Thanks again for all the help, it's been very useful. Cheers,


----------



## medaid

simonsimon said:
			
		

> I'm currently learning Pashto in the hope of doing a DEO, starting BOTC this Fall, completing CAP and BIOC by the end of 2009, and deploying to Afghanistan in 2010. I want to know if this is realistic.



No.



			
				simonsimon said:
			
		

> 1. Is it possible to complete BOTC, CAP and BIOC within a year? Do IntO even have to do CAP? And how often is the BIOC offered in the year? Once you've finished those, is it possible to start training for deployment immediately - and how long does this last? 6 months like for infantry?



That depends. Are you attempting to apply to RegF or PRes? Is it possible? No. Why? Because you are assuming that you pass every single one of your courses without fail, which may happen but may not. You are also assuming that courses are back to back to back, which they're not. If you are PRes, which by the latter questions you are, the likelihood of you doing everything in one go is at the mercy of whether or not you've missed the que for certain courses. IntOs do CAP in the RegF without question of element. Navy IntOs in the PRes do not, but they do in the Army. BIOC is element dependent, and depending on when you finish your course, you may have missed the opportunity to join a BG.



			
				simonsimon said:
			
		

> 2. How does selection for deployment work? Do you apply for it? Are you assigned according to relevant skills?



Depends.



			
				simonsimon said:
			
		

> 3. If you know the local language on a deployment, what kind of different work could you be expected to do? Would you ever be going off base and talking to locals, or more translating enemy documents on-base?



Can't say.



			
				simonsimon said:
			
		

> 4. Do any Int O work on PRTs?



Can't say.



			
				simonsimon said:
			
		

> 5. When you're not on deployment and are working at your local Company, what kind of work are you doing exactly? Are you working with deployed forces?



Things that you're trained to do in support of your local CBG and units.


----------



## George Wallace

It really amuses me when I see this type of post on the internet.  Does the person making the post really have any idea of what they are doing, or what the job is that they are talking about.  In this case no.  This is a case of someone who has no concept of what the job is; no concept of what Security Concerns are, and not concept of the proper channels to go through to research the matter.  I would start with a quick view of Killing with Keyboards and a visit to the CFRC where a more secure environment exists to make your query.


----------



## Greymatters

Do you know where the website is for that version you quoted in the old thread?  The version you posted has extra parts that are missing from the version Ive seen.


----------



## simonsimon

MedTech said:
			
		

> That depends. Are you attempting to apply to RegF or PRes? Is it possible? No. Why? Because you are assuming that you pass every single one of your courses without fail, which may happen but may not. You are also assuming that courses are back to back to back, which they're not. If you are PRes, which by the latter questions you are, the likelihood of you doing everything in one go is at the mercy of whether or not you've missed the que for certain courses. IntOs do CAP in the RegF without question of element. Navy IntOs in the PRes do not, but they do in the Army. BIOC is element dependent, and depending on when you finish your course, you may have missed the opportunity to join a BG.


 Thanks for the input MedTech, much appreciated.

I am currently a civilian, but would want to join the RegF. Do you know if there is a high failure rate for the different courses (BOTC, CAP, BIOC)?


----------



## Tanner

Look up an Int branch and call the recruiting WO and they should be able to answer any questions about the trade.


----------



## medaid

BOTC is the initial "weeding" phase I suppose where potential officers are subjected to the military life. CAP has a HIGH failure rate due to physical fitness or other areas. The instructors are there to help you along and not to fail you so keep that in mind. BIOC... If you study, pay attention and learn you'll be fine


----------



## twistedcables

Thanks Wallace, for reminding all to be discreet when responding to questiosn requiring too much detail for a forum.  Recruiting Centres and the CF website ARE the best sites to get most info and the forum here does otherwise plenty to help.

I will say I have an app submitted with the CF as a Reg.  Held up by additional medical tests (shit I'm getting old!) but I have a very very unique background (includes work with 2 fed agencies), I speak 2 of the languages of interest for deplymnt to Afg - my background is also from that area --- but I dont have the degree - yet.  I will try to get my study subsidized and once I have the degree, hopefully by then I'll have had some experience as an NCM - mostly gained through deployment.

To put Officers in charge where they are obviously outdone by an NCM's skillset (attained through real life experience AND prof military trg) is disastrous for the battlespace preparation because of the IMAGE of a superior who is shitting himself while explosions rock the periphery.  On the other hand, a good officer does'nt have to be a master of the subject - he or she must effectively MANAGE that very-qualified NCM so as to produce a product acceptable to the Op's objectives.

I think they should make certain as much as possible candidates (NCM or Officers) are deployment-minded and I dont mean deployed to an office somewhere, crafting clever powerpoint presentations for soldiers on the ground to have to figure out what it means in terms of their life and death and the success of the mission.


----------



## Greymatters

twistedcables said:
			
		

> I think they should make certain as much as possible candidates (NCM or Officers) are deployment-minded and I dont mean deployed to an office somewhere, crafting clever powerpoint presentations for soldiers on the ground to have to figure out what it means in terms of their life and death and the success of the mission.



That is the ideal mentality, but there are always exceptions...


----------



## blacktriangle

Twisted...it sounds like you might enjoy a more field oriented INT experience? If so, maybe you are looking in the wrong places and thats all I will say.


----------



## Greymatters

popnfresh said:
			
		

> Twisted...it sounds like you might enjoy a more field oriented INT experience? If so, maybe you are looking in the wrong places and that's all I will say.



I'm not sure how you want that interpretted - can you spell it out a bit more clearly?


----------



## swiftwin

Hello, I am looking at the idea of a career as an Intelligence Officer. I'm graduating this summer with a B.A. with honors double major in _history_ and _geomatics and spatial analysis_, I also have a handful of political science courses (I once considered doing a minor in that).

Im currently looking at this webpage: http://www.forces.ca/v3/engraph/jobs/jobs.aspx?id=82&bhcp=1

It says that as a DEO: "applicants must hold an *undergraduate* degree from an accredited Canadian university, preferably in one of the areas of study listed under “Qualification Requirements”. Proficiency in some foreign languages may be an asset."

However, in the .pdf file (monograph), it says: "DEO applicants must hold a *Master* degree from a from an accredited Canadian university, preferably in one of the areas of study listed under “Qualification Requirements”. Proficiency in some foreign languages may be an asset."

Why the difference? 
Which one is accurate? 
How often are DEO's accepted as an intelligence officer?


----------



## benny88

The website will never be as up to date as the folks in your Recruiting Centre. Go in or call and just ask.


----------



## UoTJustin

i'm graduating soon with a degree in chemistry but i am considering a stint in the army. i initially wanted to be in the infantry but i have a feeling that i'd more suited/better as an intelligence officer. i speak three languages but not french, geopolitics is a passionate hobby of mine and i am an avid student of history (espcially military history). i am pretty fit and i have lived in many many places over my short life (22) including germany usa china. i believe these will all work for me if i join. 

now knowing a little about my background how should i proceed? what kind of time scale am i look at in terms of training and starting work? how much say will i have in what i am being assigned as a job? what if i want to interrupt and get my master and do research in chemistry? 

i am kind of adrift here but i'm sure the kind people here will point me in the right direction


----------



## Lil_T

> i'm graduating soon with a degree in chemistry but i am considering a stint in the army. i initially wanted to be in the infantry but i have a feeling that i'd more suited/better as an intelligence officer. i speak three languages but not french, geopolitics is a passionate hobby of mine and i am an avid student of history (espcially military history). i am pretty fit and i have lived in many many places over my short life (22) including germany usa china. i believe these will all work for me if i join.
> 
> now knowing a little about my background how should i proceed? what kind of time scale am i look at in terms of training and starting work? how much say will i have in what i am being assigned as a job? what if i want to interrupt and get my master and do research in chemistry?
> 
> i am kind of adrift here but i'm sure the kind people here will point me in the right direction




well, if it's something you really want, I'd hop on it, living outside the country can cause delays in your application as they have to verify your whereabouts and security clearances and all that jazz.  Some of the more experienced folks here - and I believe there are a couple recruiters on here too - would be able to steer you in the right direction.

Good luck.


----------



## forza_milan

The best advice anyone gave me when applying included the following:

1) Visit the www.forces.ca website (which includes an online chat feature);
2) Talk to the local CFRC;
3) Search the forums because chances are, that your questions have already been answered (numerous times). 

In response to your post, UoTJustin, you will probably have to have a pre-sec done and as someone who had to go through a pre-sec himself, the process of getting from applying to getting the pre-sec could take *up to* two years (from what the people at the CFRC told me). Fortunately for me, it took two months. It entirely depends on the countries you have visited, family members abroad etc. Your CFRC can you give you more detailed information. Hope that helps  Good luck with your application and keep us posted!


----------



## Pete H

Hello everyone, I'm in the process of completing my MA (Masters) in political science at the University of Toronto, and Im seriously considering applying for the Int O profession. While I have no formal military background, defense policy has been my primary interest throughout undergrad and graduate school. I've been reading through the posts on this forum over the past few days, and I was just wondering what the likelihood is that I will be accepted into this occupation through DEO even though I wont be coming from the ranks?


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Pete H said:
			
		

> Hello everyone, I'm in the process of completing my MA (Masters) in political science at the University of Toronto, and Im seriously considering applying for the Int O profession. While I have no formal military background, defense policy has been my primary interest throughout undergrad and graduate school. I've been reading through the posts on this forum over the past few days, and I was just wondering what the likelihood is that I will be accepted into this occupation through DEO even though I wont be coming from the ranks?



Hace you even bothered to look at the recruiting site?

Since I'm in a good mood, here is something from the recruiting site.

QUALIFICATION REQUIREMENTS
INT Officers must be selfless and dedicated team members and leaders, able to lead troops and follow orders in close support of headquarters or command staff of combat units. They must have initiative and be resourceful, have physical and mental stamina, good analytical skills, be able to perform multiple tasks under stress and in adverse circumstances, and work without supervision for extensive periods of time. They must have a good understanding of military operations in the world, both in peace and war, and excellent written and oral communication skills in both official languages. 

*INT Officers are normally required to have a university degree preferably in Economics, Geography, History, Imagery Science, Information Technology, International Studies, Journalism, Military and Strategic Studies, or Political Science*.

*Candidates must meet the CF medical standards and successfully complete a selection process consisting of interviews and a wide range of examinations*.

The minimum security clearance required for Basic Intelligence Officer Course (BIOC) is Secret, but INT Officers must qualify for Top Secret, Special Assignment level clearance.

Entry Plans

Most candidates are selected from the Officer Occupational Transfer Program (OT), University Training Plan Non-Commissioned Members (UTPNCM), Special Commissioning Plan (SCP), and Commissioning from the Ranks (CFR). Applicants from the following programs may also be accepted:

*Direct Entry Officer – DEO applicants must hold an undergraduate degree from an accredited Canadian university, preferably in one of the areas of study listed under “Qualification Requirements”. Proficiency in some foreign languages may be an asset.*


----------



## Pete H

Yes I have looked at the site, but I also know how competitive this occupation is. Even though I do meet the physical and academic pre-requisites, I will be applying DEO so I will not have the combat arms expertise that many experienced members have. Im just wondering how competitive my application will be in comparison.


----------



## aesop081

Pete H said:
			
		

> Yes I have looked at the site, but I also know how competitive this occupation is. Even though I do meet the physical and academic pre-requisites, I will be applying DEO so I will not have the combat arms expertise that many experienced members have. Im just wondering how competitive my application will be in comparison.



Please visit the CFRC and discuss this with them.

Personaly speaking, i would say that applying and see where it takes you, is the only way to get an idea how competitive you would be.


----------



## Hastings

I have searched army.ca all morning and can't find a single bit of useful information.  I have searched "Int O" Int Officer" "Intelligence Officer" "Intelligence" and read everything that seems relevant but nothing is.  

I know I have previously found information about the trade, but damned if I can find anything now.  I am looking for some no BS answers to what an junior INT O can expect to do while on tour.   

I have been interested in this trade, but find the information slightly ambiguous.  I am specifically wondering if Int O's are in charge of interrogations, as I'm not sure that is a role that I am comfortable with. 

SO anyone that can give me an idea of what a junior Int O can expect to do while on tour would be great.  Thank you.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

I would say paperwork.

The would take all the intel that is coming in and compile them to produce reports which then gets sent higher.


----------



## Sig_Des

This makes you uncomfortable?  ;D

I am not an Int O, nor do I portray one on television, so I won't tell you what they do. And I imagine any specifics they would have, they still couldn't tell you. Could always go off what the recruiting file says they do.

I do however know that Tactical Questioning and Interrogation is something that is taken seriously, and that there are checks and balances.

So if you're concerned about being in charge of a waterboarding or anything, this might alleviate your conscience:



> CONSTRAINTS ON INTERROGATION AND TACTICAL QUESTIONING
> 1. PW shall be treated humanely.
> 2. No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on PW to secure from
> them information of any kind whatever. PW who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or
> exposed to unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind.



~B-GJ-005-110/FP-020 - Prisoner of War Handling Detainees and Interrogation & Tactical Questioning in International Operations


----------



## vonGarvin

Int Officers do Int work.  As the junior, you will help the Int O to conduct "IPOE" (Intelligence Preparation of the Operational Environment")  In other words, help "them" do the estimate as you induce and deduce "factors Enemy"


----------



## dapaterson

And, as a junior officer anywhere, you may be sent to get coffee.  Usually to get you out of the room while other discussions are going on that you shouldn't be privvy to.


----------



## Soldier1stTradesman2nd

DIN:

http://kingston.mil.ca/cfsmi-ermfc/En/Intg.asp (Only open to INT trade ATM)

http://kingston.mil.ca/cfsmi-ermfc/En/TQ.asp  (Open to all MOCs)


----------



## tankman

I just finished my basic training in Kingston this month and I am applying to join the regular force..interested in becoming an intelligence officer. I had a university degree already. and I wonder what kinds of training would be in the future? Where and for how long? And what would it be like for me in the next three years? and where would I be likely to work?(ottawa?)..any info regarding pursuing it as a career are welcome! Thanks!


----------



## brihard

You're gonna get dogpiled and this will get locked, but I'll give you a few quick links.

This is a google search of 'Intelligence Officer' on this site, because the site's built in search is crap, and;

Here is the recruiting page for the trade.

All this information is readily out there. Next time, search. If you intend to be an Int O, learning how to dig up easily accessible information for yourself would be a good start.

Welcome to army.ca


----------



## poiriernb

Although it does appear that being an intelligence officer is "readily available" its not the case.  I too am in the process of joining as an officer an intel was my first pick.  I was however informed that its not really a position available for direct entry.  It would in fact require three years experience and then an OT to intel.  Upon receipt of this info I decided to choose a trade which involved a lot of recce (armour, arty, inf) choosing one of those trades, if possible, would increase your chances for intel officer.  I decided with arty officer and im waiting for my call!  Everyone feel free to correct me if this information is flawed.


----------



## Cowboy

Mods please relocate to a more suitable forum if applicable:

This is a difficult question and requires a little background first. I am 26, a reservist from a combat arms unit with three years in. I have no operational experience but am PLQ qualified. I want to component transfer to the Regs and go ROTP. My goal is to become an intelligence officer. I know the selection is tough. I have directed my degree towards this goal (Ba in International Relations, with a focus on security and strategy) and in the process of learning my third language. I have been told the odds of me being selected for Int-Officer for ROTP are slim. Therefore I want to know what trade I could take up in order to better my chances for a remuster down the road? I am hoping after 5 years in whatever trade that may be I will be able to remuster to Int. What can I do to improve my chances? I know all the basics such as good grades, languages,  performance and potentially a grad degree but it is very difficult to get information on the kind of people who become eligible for this trade. I have even considered contacting a PSO. Any information or direction is greatly appreciated!!


----------



## breezie

Hi Cowboy, you could consider going ROTP and just doing the best you can. I'm at RMC now, and was told when I enrolled in 2008 that I couldn't get Int O, as it was full or something. So, when we had trade interviews last May, Int O was my second choice, as I thought it was still not available. I got it though, as did some of my friends, so maybe it's not as closed as it seems. As far as I have seen, good grades (difficult to maintain here due to all the other things you have to do on top of your academics), fitness, and generally good attitude and excellent personal behavior seem to be common traits among those who got int. It could also depend on your element - of the six I know, three are air force, two are army, and one is navy. So, good luck, and with any luck, you'll get the trade too!


----------



## The_Dictat

Great suggestions breezie.  Cowboy by saying ROTP are you implying that you want to go to RMC?  Have you completed your Ba Intl Rel degree?  ROTP is generally designed for people going for their first university degree through RMC.  

Once you have a university degree you could join the RegF from the reserve as an Int O through the Direct Entry Officer (DEO) program.  It should be easier to reach your goal through that way.  It is of course conditionnal that you meet the criterion for Int O.  Contact a PSO at your recruiting center to get more info.  

Good luck


----------



## Sam001

The other day I went to the recruiting center and they gave me the number for the recruiter for intelligence. I had an info session with him, but I found he wouldn't answer some of my questions. However, he kept giving my vague answers or said that he wasn't technically allowed to answer them; hence, I was hoping maybe someone here might be willing to answer them. They more about getting the job than the job itself. Below are the questions:

1. What are the qualities that Intelligence Operators need; thus, are looked for by recruiters?
2. What are the skills that recruiters look for in potential applicants?
3. What is seen by recruiters as a "good" candidate for the job?
4. What is the typical applicant like? Are they usually prefered?


----------



## MasterInstructor

Hi 

I think you could not get an answer for your questions because they all sound like the same question to me, at least first 3...

Canadian Forces recruitment system has a certain process, its not like you hand in your resume and see if you get an interview. 

Results of your CFAT, Medical, Background Check, Interview will determine if you get employed. Each trade had different requirements for CFAT, Medical and Interview. 

I am not familiar with Intelligence Operator myself.

cheers


----------



## George Wallace

If you go to the CFRC you can pick up a handout that tells about the Intelligence Operator position.  

If you use the SEARCH function you can find topics about the Intelligence Operator Trade.



That being said, we do not need yet another topic asking about Intelligence Operators.  In those topics you will find that an Intelligence Operator is not a James Bond, they are not Secret Agents of any sort, they do not spy on people, they do not have a "Licence to Kill", they do not go on Recce Patrols, or anything of the type.  They do not get Spec Pay, and train in the Martial Arts, nor learn foreign languages.  The only thing mysterious about them, is their name.




Topic Closed Locked


----------



## George Wallace

I might add, if you are honestly serious about becoming a member of the INT Branch, in any rank, that you pay particular attention to your writing skills.  Your ability to correctly use Canadian English, spelling and grammar, will make or break you on course.  Your use of correct spelling, grammar, and sentence structure have a cause and effect on those receiving your work.  Your credibility will be on the line.  The surest way to loose credibility in the INT Trade is to produce a product that unintelligible, poorly written, and full of spelling and grammatical errors.  "US Spelling" is a big no no, so don't trust Bill Gates' Spell Check.   Plagiarism will mean failure.  Cheating will mean failure.  So, cite all sources and do your own work.


----------



## 45a14

Hey Everyone,

I joined the CF (Infantry reserves) when I was 18 and got out when I was 21.  I've worked some shitty jobs in the last 3 years, but I always have toyed with joining up again.  I'm working on a degree I have about 15 credits and after this term I will have another 15.  I don't want to go into debt with school, so I want to get the military to pay for it.  I'm interested in becoming an intelligence officer. 

My questions to you are:

1) Is there any other information on Intel officers besides what the CF website has up?  Looking for supplemental stuff to aid in my decision making.
2) Will the military pay for the rest of my schooling despite the fact that I have already started my way to a degree?  
3)How do I go about applying for them to pay for my schooling?
4) If the military pays for the rest of my schooling does that have an effect on how many years I serve?  Does the amount invested determine how many years you serve?


----------



## 1911CoLt45

Good day

From my past experiences this job is not available for any kind of direct entry, ROTP,  CEOTP.  Its usually offered once you have served some time at the lower portions of a regiment in the beginning of your officer career,  lets say with infantry for example.  I am however only talking from personal experience , being not in the CF and am still a civilian I could be extremely wrong.  However I did try this route as well and that is what the recruiters told me.  The recruiter could have been fibbing for all I know though get in contact with the recruiters.

Any one else have any suggestions?


----------



## gcclarke

I can't really comment on question 1), but...

2) You can apply for entry into the regular force under the Regular Officer Training Plan even if you still have some post-secondary under your belt, provided that upon your enrollment, you will still have a minimum of 2 years worth of schooling to go in your degree. Keep in mind that not all schools use the same "credit" system as yours may, so stating that you have 15 credits may be meaningless.

3) Wait until the new fiscal year, and then go into the recruiting centre to tell them that you would like to enrol as an ROTP candidate as an IntO. 

4) You incur obligatory service at the rate of 2 months obligatory service per month of education subsidized. 

And yes, as was mentioned, they don't seem to often (Although they do occasionally) hire Intelligence Officers "off the street", so it's entirely possible that once April rolls around, there will be a total of 0 ROTP slots and 0 DEO slots available for the fiscal year. If that is the case, you can always apply for entry under ROTP as another trade, and apply for an Occupational Transfer at a later date.


----------



## 45a14

gcclarke said:
			
		

> I can't really comment on question 1), but...
> 
> 2) You can apply for entry into the regular force under the Regular Officer Training Plan even if you still have some post-secondary under your belt, provided that upon your enrollment, you will still have a minimum of 2 years worth of schooling to go in your degree. Keep in mind that not all schools use the same "credit" system as yours may, so stating that you have 15 credits may be meaningless.
> 
> 3) Wait until the new fiscal year, and then go into the recruiting centre to tell them that you would like to enrol as an ROTP candidate as an IntO.
> 
> 4) You incur obligatory service at the rate of 2 months obligatory service per month of education subsidized.
> 
> 
> 
> And yes, as was mentioned, they don't seem to often (Although they do occasionally) hire Intelligence Officers "off the street", so it's entirely possible that once April rolls around, there will be a total of 0 ROTP slots and 0 DEO slots available for the fiscal year. If that is the case, you can always apply for entry under ROTP as another trade, and apply for an Occupational Transfer at a later date.


Okay.  So I shouldn't apply until September?


----------



## gcclarke

You can talk to them in early April to find out whether or not there's even going to be any IntO ROTP positions that Fiscal year. And by that year, I mean selected that year, as if I recall correctly, the final round of selections for the Sept 2010 school year is going on soon. So any selection boards that sit after April will be for Sept 2011. 

Anyways, I'd typically say that the earlier you apply the better, but I wouldn't bother applying until at least April, when you can at least likely find out if there are any positions that you're applying to.


----------



## NinjaRider

Hi everyone,

Any suggested entry career/path best suited to get a crack at intel one day? I figure infantry would be a good bet but would appreciate your input.

I have gone through over 4 years of application delays and program closures with the CF. Enhanced CSIS checks took years due to my extensive travels, continuing education program closures.. I'm 32 and a civilian pilot. Ironically I taught the Canadian Forces how to fly the Challenger jet, CC-144, however since I only have 2.5 years of University studies I'm not eligible to direct entry, hence the mess. On numerous occasions I've gone on to recruiting centers to apply for a different career only to be convinced to apply for pilot again, and face more delays and closures. So I've quit on the idea of pilot. Intelligence interests me and I was told I could apply. I did. Only to later find out half the recruiting staff told me intel operators are not hired from outside and the other half yes. I was eventually advised from a higher up in a different center that my file although competitive would just stay in limbo.

So.. I'm trying to decide on a regular soldier career with intelligence in mind for the future, if possible. I'm inclined more to the combat arms but would consider all paths. My file is complete, checks done and ready to roll. Would appreciate suggestions. Thank you!


----------



## George Wallace

Your best bet is to do some time in Cbt Arms.  You are currently looking at a two year waiting list for INT.


----------



## TimBit

Another way to go is with Signals. A fair share of int comes from sigs and background in the field can help. Plus as a Sig Op you could get exposure to cbt arms. Finally there is always the comms research way which will get you in signals intelligence straight away.

Cheers!


----------



## Greymatters

NinjaRider said:
			
		

> Any suggested entry career/path best suited to get a crack at intel one day? I figure infantry would be a good bet but would appreciate your input.
> 
> I have gone through over 4 years of application delays and program closures with the CF. Enhanced CSIS checks took years due to my extensive travels, continuing education program closures.. I'm 32 and a civilian pilot. Ironically I taught the Canadian Forces how to fly the Challenger jet, CC-144, however since I only have 2.5 years of University studies I'm not eligible to direct entry, hence the mess. On numerous occasions I've gone on to recruiting centers to apply for a different career only to be convinced to apply for pilot again, and face more delays and closures. So I've quit on the idea of pilot. Intelligence interests me and I was told I could apply. I did. Only to later find out half the recruiting staff told me intel operators are not hired from outside and the other half yes. I was eventually advised from a higher up in a different center that my file although competitive would just stay in limbo.
> 
> So.. I'm trying to decide on a regular soldier career with intelligence in mind for the future, if possible. I'm inclined more to the combat arms but would consider all paths. My file is complete, checks done and ready to roll. Would appreciate suggestions. Thank you!




While many Int Ops come from an Army background, and most of those used to come from Infantry, that trend has more to do with how many persons are in other trades rather than a 'proper' career path.  Int Ops come from a wide range of trades and there is no single yellow brick road to success. 

As to direct entry, that topic has been brought up on this forum before.  Based on what youve posted I think it unlikely that you would be accepted for direct-entry to Int; IMO you dont appear to have the education skill or experience areas they would be looking for, or the personal connections to open the doors for you.  Thats only my opinion on this aspect, others might know better.      

I would suggest though, that if (by your example provided) you are the type of person who walks into a recruiting centre and you let the staff there easily convince you to change your mind as to what career you want to pursue, you might want to either work on developing your level of self-determination and stop letting others make career decisions for you, or quit looking for the easy route.

Other than that, what you really need to do (as it may be awhile before you get a chance to apply for Int (not 'intel')) is that you should focus at this moment on selecting a career path that appeals to you.  Just in case there is a monstrous long line up, or the trade closes admissions for a while, or you dont meet standards for application to the Int trade, it would be nice to have a career you enjoy.


----------



## NinjaRider

Thanks everyone for the advice. Signals seems interesting. That or infantry. Grey.. I hear you but my words weren't the right ones. My determination to join and mistake to wait on the CF had a big impact on my flying career. What was supposed to be months turned to years. 14 years a pilot with thousands of hours logged it's only natural to want to be in the cockpit and get it done. Supposedly opened programs turned out to be closed. S#$& happens. I'm still determined to join the CF enough to leave an airline career. Question is which trade. Int would be an interesting opportunity if it arose. I've been most interested in infantry and signals, also looked into combat engineer and comm research. I appreciate your help. Great forum!


----------



## SupersonicMax

NinjaRider said:
			
		

> 14 years a pilot with thousands of hours logged it's only natural to want to be in the cockpit and get it done. Supposedly opened programs turned out to be closed.



And rightly so.  



			
				NinjaRider said:
			
		

> I'm still determined to join the CF enough to leave an airline career.



If you are in a good position now (ie: one of the Majors with a good sched), I'd recommend against it.  What I'd recommend is keep your job, join the reserve and give it a try that way first.  Who knows, you may not like it or you may like the reserves and stick with that plan.  If you live or can easily commute to YWG, talk to 402 Sqn (Dash 8).  They take direct entry reserve pilots.  All you need is 500TT and a MIFR.  You'd do a King Air course to get your CF pilot wings and you'd be trained as an FO on the Dash 8, all the while being a Class A reservist.  I personally know 1 guy that did that and flies the 777 with AC.  If you want more info, PM me.

If you're still working your way up the ladder working on smaller equipment with a crappy schedule, then Reg Force can be a good option.


----------



## NinjaRider

Hey Super,

Thanks for the advice. That's a great idea. And I wish I could do it the problem is scheduling. Went through 2 layoffs this past year and recently got lucky in finding a job in this market where I'll be doing a lot of flying up north 3 weeks at a time and 6 month tours in Africa. I'll be gone most of the year especially summers leaving no time for the reserve. Pay is low, conditions not good and the birds date back to the 50s, although fun to fly. I'm still in the middle pack grinding my way. It's made for an exciting career, had a lot of fun in places like China, New Guinea and the north. But all the layoffs and conditions going down the tube are giving me second thoughts. Had my fun maybe it's time for change. Learn a new trade, finish my education.. I wish I could take the reserve route but this job won't make it possible. I also wish the Canadian Forces would do as the British military and considering life experience, such as being an expert on the Challenger jet who train their own pilots from 412 Squadron, into consideration regarding education. That leaves a college grad with a philosophy degree more eligible for pilot. Had to vent that out.. Oh well. Thanks!


----------



## CountDC

Wow this takes me back over 20 years.  Walking to work and a Major stopped and offered me a drive.  He vented about his friend that couldn't get into the military as a pilot even though he had 15 years flying with AC plus years of instructing along with helicopters.  Couldn't get in because he didn't have a university degree.  The Major was PO'd because when he joined he only had a grade 6 education and was accepted as a pilot.  Didn't help that at the same time they had taken in a new guy fresh from University with an Oceanography Degree.  I always remember the Major - "what the hell does oceanography have to do with flying?  The only thing a pilot needs to know about the ocean is not to put the jet into it".


----------



## NinjaRider

Lol.. That's a good one. There's bureaucracy for you and the lack of common sense. I have 2 1/2 years of University studies, became a pilot at a US military school, have two airline transport licenses, licenses and ratings from the US and Canada, advanced courses from manufacturers, avionics and an expert on the CC-144.. We're talking years of advanced studies and experience. That guy with the oceanography degree is eligible for direct entry, I ain't. Some years back tired of waiting I applied with the British Army as a regular soldier. I just wanted to get in. Enough with the pilot thing. Being part of the Commonwealth we can do that. While they prefer having degrees they do consider life experience. And so I was invited to do the selection phase in the UK as an infantry officer. I went and did well and during the process they suggested I go for pilot. Again that was hard to resist, flying Apaches in the Army would have been something, so I did. I did well and was advised to prepare for Sandhurst, their academy, only to fail their new written which was harsh. That trip ended up being expensive. Point of the story, they considered life experience and kudos to the Brits for that. Their selection process was exemplary. I screwed up and can live with that. It's a shame our military doesn't do that because you're losing good candidates. That's the bureaucracy and red tape of today and not just in the military. Common sense has gone out the window. Hopefully some people can change that.


----------



## NinjaRider

Reminds me of a CC-144 pilot from the CF we were training. He'd been in the service something like 20+ years. He ended up taking a leave to fly civilian for a while only to come back. Thing is he'd never had a degree and was not eligible for direct entry. Even after all those years of service. He was eventually able to get back in through the continuing education program.


----------



## TimBit

But a military pilot is so much more than a pilot. As an officer, a degree DOES help to open your eyes to critical thinking and the bigger picture, and since you're expected to go up, you need that in HQ. Otherwise, you're just a driver.


----------



## HavocSteve

TimBit said:
			
		

> But a military pilot is so much more than a pilot. As an officer, a degree DOES help to open your eyes to critical thinking and the bigger picture, and since you're expected to go up, you need that in HQ. Otherwise, you're just a driver.


Some of the greatest minds don't come from a uni. degree. If someone has previous experience flying especially one that has carried the lives of many, I don't see why that couldn't take into play. They let Ed's UP (show on a barenaked ladies guy) to fly a CF-18.


----------



## NinjaRider

I agree to the need of having an education and its benefits. But it would be ideal in my opinion to not judge out life experience. In my case just for example I have 2 1/2 years of University studies. But I also have years of practical experience from the workplace as a pilot, in business and as supervisor managing pilots. The level of education I've completed equates to more than a PhD. For the flying role thousands of hours of command and flight experience in some of the world's most challenging environments. Would one make an argument that two extra years studying general courses in college is worth more than this experience combined? This isn't a question of getting that job but the opportunity to prove yourself in that role, flying and beyond. I'm done with the pilot trade, just my two cents on the subject 

Go Army!  ;D


----------



## NinjaRider

NikN,

Thanks for the detailed info! Was not aware of that possibility in AAC. It's nice to know and I'll look into it. That trip over there ended up very expensive as you know. A trick is to get a working holiday visa for the UK so you can work as you wait. Unfortunately I'd already used mine in the past during travels so I started the process in Northern Ireland, working in Ireland while I waited. The Brits wanted me to stay in country more so was shipped to London and then things got real pricey  After failing the exam I had an opportunity to apply as a regular soldier but was running out of money with months left in the process. Called up the CF and the continuing ed program was open again for pilots with my file ready to roll. Came back and that's just when the new background checks were put in place and took over 2 years to complete, naturally during that time the program closed. What a mess that was. Should have stayed over in the UK. I was broke, in debt, had sold my car and couldn't go back. Morale went down the tubes. I eventually looked back into it to find a max age of 29 if I recall for infantry soldier. 32 now. I'll look into your suggestions with the Brits and that trade here, it could prove useful as backup. 

I'll first try to join the CF and it's coming down to 1. signals and 2. infantry. Using this forum to read up on the signals trade. Thanks much and again, this is a great forum and community! Good luck getting into your trade NikN 

Cheers!  :nod:


----------



## NinjaRider

Thanks Nik! It's nice to know age won't be a barrier and there's a second option. I don't know the pub but thanks for the tip. I'll go to the Montreal recruiting center on Monday to look into an application for signals, to see how long it would take and so on. The crappy thing is my employer will require a 2 year financial bond mid May and I'm hesitant at dropping the job without an offer. Never a dull moment..   Good luck on your end!


----------



## NinjaRider

Hahaha... Thanks a lot for the heads up. Surprised to see that considering recent threads. It's good to know the program is open again and I'll put it into consideration. The CC-144 pilots were telling me the training delays were up to 4 years even though they said the CF is short of flight crews. That's a turn off but it's good to know the program is up again. Thanks a lot for your help Nik! Any progress on your end?


----------



## bigabe

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I might add, if you are honestly serious about becoming a member of the INT Branch, in any rank, that you pay particular attention to your writing skills.  Your ability to correctly use Canadian English, spelling and grammar, will make or break you on course.  Your use of correct spelling, grammar, and sentence structure have a cause and effect on those receiving your work.  Your credibility will be on the line.  The surest way to loose credibility in the INT Trade is to produce a product that unintelligible, poorly written, and full of spelling and grammatical errors.  "US Spelling" is a big no no, so don't trust Bill Gates' Spell Check.   Plagiarism will mean failure.  Cheating will mean failure.  So, cite all sources and do your own work.



I believe there are many literary critics who would have things to say about overuse of punctuation, capitalization and fragmented sentences; however I do stamp this written piece as absolutely impeccable according to CFPAS and CF memo-writing standards.   >  

The smarterer it sounds, the less likelihood for  the WO to red-pen, then have the captain red-pen all your new corrections, just to be resubmitted to the R/C/B/S/T SM again (as the first two were lost, notice the double entendre), denied on principle on said 3rd try because the date is now over 14 days old and it must be resubmitted.  Of course, said process started 5 months ago, so now file numbers have changed, FORGENs superseded, all addressed members of CoC changed positions/names, and it was only to participate in a charity bowling game.

I love beaucracy.


----------



## Greymatters

bigabe said:
			
		

> The smarterer it sounds, the less likelihood for  the WO to red-pen, then have the captain red-pen all your new corrections, just to be resubmitted to the R/C/B/S/T SM again (as the first two were lost, notice the double entendre), denied on principle on said 3rd try because the date is now over 14 days old and it must be resubmitted.  Of course, said process started 5 months ago, so now file numbers have changed, FORGENs superseded, all addressed members of CoC changed positions/names, and it was only to participate in a charity bowling game.



I would laugh but Ive actually endured that experience and I wasnt happy about it...


----------



## armychick2009

bigabe said:
			
		

> I believe there are many literary critics who would have things to say about overuse of punctuation, capitalization and fragmented sentences; however I do stamp this written piece as absolutely impeccable according to CFPAS and CF memo-writing standards.   >



Well _almost _impeccable except for the "loose"/"lose" oversight in the sentence pointing out the need for grammar checking! I do assume though that George was trying to see if we were all really paying attention....


----------



## PMedMoe

bigabe said:
			
		

> The smarterer it sounds,



Smarterer?    ???


----------



## REDinstaller

Smarterer????? Is that a new word that spell check allows?? Dumberer is acceptable, but only if it refers to Harry and Lloyd.  ;D


----------



## bigabe

> smarterer


I was actually going to go on in my best Cape Bretoner English (You know who you are, buddy!) before the memo thing popped into me mind.  Oops, there it goes again.  I'm surprised it took 3 posters later to catch it.  I guess its kind of like the classic:



> This sentence gives you the impression that I
> I believe in the importance of attention to detail.



^^ See the screw up?
I feel like I'm playing a "Where's Waldo" of prose.  iper:  For the record, I haven't used spell check in years, I simply read.


----------



## CanForceOfficer

Cowboy said:
			
		

> Mods please relocate to a more suitable forum if applicable:
> 
> This is a difficult question and requires a little background first. I am 26, a reservist from a combat arms unit with three years in. I have no operational experience but am PLQ qualified. I want to component transfer to the Regs and go ROTP. My goal is to become an intelligence officer. I know the selection is tough. I have directed my degree towards this goal (Ba in International Relations, with a focus on security and strategy) and in the process of learning my third language. I have been told the odds of me being selected for Int-Officer for ROTP are slim. Therefore I want to know what trade I could take up in order to better my chances for a remuster down the road? I am hoping after 5 years in whatever trade that may be I will be able to remuster to Int. What can I do to improve my chances? I know all the basics such as good grades, languages,  performance and potentially a grad degree but it is very difficult to get information on the kind of people who become eligible for this trade. I have even considered contacting a PSO. Any information or direction is greatly appreciated!!



I realize my reply is a little late, I apologize... I am an occasional army.ca reader...
But to answer your question, I would recommend getting into an MA in War Studies after you finish your degree.  The program is directly relevant and you can focus on intelligence studies.  I'm doing the BIOC DL right now and judging by the profiles of the candidates the vast majority have masters degrees or they are former NCM/NCOs.  By the time you finish all that you should be a Capt in whatever trade you are in.  Then you will be able to bring previous military experience to the table as well.  There are many different ways to make yourself more attractive, consider this just one helpful suggestion.


----------



## sean m

Hello, 

On the Canadian forces site, it says that in order to get into psy ops  that it is necessary to be in  INT first, yet there have been post on here which state that it is not necessary to be in INT  for psy ops. Could someone please explain if it is or is not necessary


----------



## Michael OLeary

sean m said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> On the Canadian forces site, it says that in order to get into psy ops  that it is necessary to be in  INT first, yet there have been post on here which state that it is not necessary to be in INT  for psy ops. Could someone please explain if it is or is not necessary



http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/96028.0

(Found by searching site:army.ca "psy ops")


----------



## brihard

sean m said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> On the Canadian forces site, it says that in order to get into psy ops  that it is necessary to be in  INT first, yet there have been post on here which state that it is not necessary to be in INT  for psy ops. Could someone please explain if it is or is not necessary



No it is not, at the moment.

If and when you get into the military, by the time you're in a position to try for any such particular tasking or employment, you'll be in a position to know what the requirements are.

As it stands I very much doubt you have a clue what PSYOPS actually is, and I would not base your intentions on joining the forces on whatever conceptions you may have at this point in time about a task or organization that may or may not exist in similar or radically different form some years hence.

Worry about province you've got what we're looking for to get into the military first.


----------



## aesop081

sean m said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> On the Canadian forces site, it says that in order to get into psy ops  that it is necessary to be in  INT first, yet there have been post on here which state that it is not necessary to be in INT  for psy ops. Could someone please explain if it is or is not necessary



What happenned to HUMINT ?


----------



## sean m

Thank you very much for the help sirs.  haha that still would be the cumulative goal, but as Mr. Brihard stated to take it one step at a time. 



			
				CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> What happenned to HUMINT ?


----------



## brihard

'Sir'? Ew, no. I work for a living.


----------



## ltmaverick25

Just a quick update on the INT Officer trade.

By the end of this summer, when all BIOCs are complete (we are running 3 of them) the trade will be overborne by 60-70 officers depending on how many guys pass the training.  From what we have been told, attrition and a recruiting freeze will be used to account for the surplus.  What that means is that those of you who are not yet INT officers will have a VERY hard time becoming one in the reg force in the short to medium term.

I have been told that we are only taking 2 component transfers per year now and in order to component transfer you have to have been commissioned in the reserves for at least 4 years to be considered.

The good news is, we will have the opportunity to be posted to positions we could never do before due to being undermanned.


----------



## MP 811

Not exactly the information I was looking to read.  I'm interested in commissioning as an Int O sometime in the very near future and this may effectively "kybosh" me  for some time.


----------



## Fergie

Hello all,

  I'm looking to gather information above and beyond the recruiting site and "fact sheets" recruiters send out regarding intelligence in the CF.  My current (limited) understanding is that intelligence is not branch specific--navy PRes int officer aside--in the traditional sense (i.e. "army intel", "navy intel", etc.).  From the job video on forces.ca it appears that int. officers do a substantial amount of their work in an office setting and little field exposure (just what I gather from the video, please correct me if I'm wrong).  I am also aware that there are a variety of specializations in the field, but aside from the obvious and some acronyms there is little in detailed information.  With all of this being said it is obviously a trade that isn't meant to be fully exposed, however I am hoping to make the intelligence side of the military my career.  I am hoping to get as much information (within reason) about the trade as possible, but more specifically on the best routes of getting in.  Some context of myself:  

- Currently finishing up my degree (Int'l Relations) and have been in an Armour Recce reg't (PEIR) for four years
- It is my passion to learn about all there is to know regarding military affairs/history, AFV, tactical/operational/strategic studies and the like, but...
- Also love the field side of things (one of the few who doesn't cringe when hearing the phrases "OP" or "dismounted recce")

  I would very much like to CT into Int officer, but from what I hear (including a person currently in the CT process to the trade) it is very difficult to do so without any real operational experience and/or intelligence related experience (i.e. was in a PRes Int unit).  I've also heard that the numbers of available positions are essentially nill.

  If the above is true what would be the best avenue of approach given my circumstances?  Any clarifications and any information above and beyond the recruiting fact sheet-type stuff would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks,

-Fergie

PS:  I have done my best to search the forums (and elsewhere) for info before hand and am more than aware of the grillings/stay in your lane comments in some of those threads.  I'll do my best to avoid the same outcome  ;D


----------



## George Wallace

This may help:



			
				ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> Just a quick update on the INT Officer trade.
> 
> By the end of this summer, when all BIOCs are complete (we are running 3 of them) the trade will be overborne by 60-70 officers depending on how many guys pass the training.  From what we have been told, attrition and a recruiting freeze will be used to account for the surplus.  What that means is that those of you who are not yet INT officers will have a VERY hard time becoming one in the reg force in the short to medium term.
> 
> I have been told that we are only taking 2 component transfers per year now and in order to component transfer you have to have been commissioned in the reserves for at least 4 years to be considered.
> 
> The good news is, we will have the opportunity to be posted to positions we could never do before due to being undermanned.


----------



## Fergie

Hello all,

  I'm looking to gather information above and beyond the recruiting site and "fact sheets" recruiters send out regarding intelligence in the CF.  My current (limited) understanding is that intelligence is not branch specific--navy PRes int officer aside--in the traditional sense (i.e. "army intel", "navy intel", etc.).  From the job video on forces.ca it appears that int. officers do a substantial amount of their work in an office setting and little field exposure (just what I gather from the video, please correct me if I'm wrong).  I am also aware that there are a variety of specializations in the field, but aside from the obvious and some acronyms there is little in detailed information.  All of this being said it is obviously a trade that isn't meant to be fully exposed, however I want to make the intelligence side of the military my career.  I am hoping to get as much information (within reason) about the trade as possible, but more specifically on the best routes of getting in.  Some context of myself:  

- Currently finishing up my degree (Int'l Relations) and have been in an Armour Recce reg't (PEIR) for four years as an NCM
- It is my passion to learn about all there is to know regarding military affairs/history, AFV, tactical/operational/strategic studies and the like, but...
- Also love the field side of things (one of the few who doesn't cringe when hearing the phrases "OP" or "dismounted recce")

  I would very much like to CT into Int officer, but from what I hear (including the posts in this thread) it is very difficult to do so without any real operational experience and/or intelligence related experience (i.e. was in a PRes Int unit, Psy Ops, CIMIC, etc.).  I've also heard (as the previous posts seem to confirm) that the numbers of available positions are essentially nil.

  What would be the best avenue of approach given my circumstances and the realities of openings?  Any clarifications and information above-and-beyond the recruiting fact sheet-type stuff would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks,

-Fergie

PS:  I have done my best to search the forums (and elsewhere) for info before hand.  If I have missed something that is already posted forgive me (a re-direction is always well taken).


----------



## Webgear

From my understanding, you will have a great deal of difficultly becoming an Intelligence Officer because the branch is currently overloaded by 15%  in officer positions. 

I do not believe the branch is accepting anymore officers for the next few years.


----------



## George Wallace

Fergie said:
			
		

> Hello all,
> 
> I'm looking to gather information above and beyond the recruiting site and "fact sheets" recruiters send out regarding intelligence in the CF.  My current (limited) understanding is that intelligence is not branch specific--navy PRes int officer aside--in the traditional sense (i.e. "army intel", "navy intel", etc.).  From the job video on forces.ca it appears that int. officers do a substantial amount of their work in an office setting and little field exposure (just what I gather from the video, please correct me if I'm wrong).  I am also aware that there are a variety of specializations in the field, but aside from the obvious and some acronyms there is little in detailed information.  All of this being said it is obviously a trade that isn't meant to be fully exposed, however I want to make the intelligence side of the military my career.  I am hoping to get as much information (within reason) about the trade as possible, but more specifically on the best routes of getting in.  Some context of myself:
> 
> - Currently finishing up my degree (Int'l Relations) and have been in an Armour Recce reg't (PEIR) for four years as an NCM
> - It is my passion to learn about all there is to know regarding military affairs/history, AFV, tactical/operational/strategic studies and the like, but...
> - Also love the field side of things (one of the few who doesn't cringe when hearing the phrases "OP" or "dismounted recce")
> 
> I would very much like to CT into Int officer, but from what I hear (including the posts in this thread) it is very difficult to do so without any real operational experience and/or intelligence related experience (i.e. was in a PRes Int unit, Psy Ops, CIMIC, etc.).  I've also heard (as the previous posts seem to confirm) that the numbers of available positions are essentially nil.
> 
> What would be the best avenue of approach given my circumstances and the realities of openings?  Any clarifications and information above-and-beyond the recruiting fact sheet-type stuff would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks,
> 
> -Fergie
> 
> PS:  I have done my best to search the forums (and elsewhere) for info before hand.  If I have missed something that is already posted forgive me (a re-direction is always well taken).



Hey Fergie

The above and this is bordering on SPAM.  We do not appreciate that here.  You were given answers to this question, and still you ask it again.  If you think an INT OP or INT O would conduct themselves in this manner, your are mistaken.  If you can not read and absorb what is written or spoken, then INT is not for you.

By the way, being a Reservist, you should know that it is INT; not Intel.  Intel is either American, or a Compurter product.  



[Edit:  It is not "compurter", but "computer".  Sorry!  Spent too much time on the Island adding "r's" to words such as "warsh". ]


----------



## ltmaverick25

The Int Officer trade is considered to be purple, meaning that it is common to all elements and theoretically an Army officer could find himself working in a Navy environment ect...  However, this is something that is becoming less and less true as time goes on.  For example, the Navy will absolutely not allow an Air or Army Int Officer to be posted to the J2 Section in Esquimalt.  I know of only one exception to this and that is because her husband is being posted out there in a relatively high position.

Similarly it would be rare to find a Navy Int O as the G2 for an infantry battalion or Brigade.

As for the environments themselves.

Navy Int Os can get deployed to sea on one of our frigates or destroyers.  However, these opportunities are rare compared to the number of Navy Int Os competing for those spots so right now its not easy to get.  In Garrison Navy Int Os will either go to Esquimalt or Halifax for environmental specific employment and there are several positions in Ottawa.  They can also be found in the Joint HQs across the country.  For example there is a Navy Int O posted to JTFC in Toronto right now, and another one posted to 1 Div HQ in Kingston.

Army Int Os can be posted to the infantry battalions, Armoured Regiments, Brigades, Land Force Area HQs, (LFWA, LFAA, LFCA, LFQA), the Joint HQs, 1 Div, and of course several positions in Ottawa.  If you are part of a battalion you will still get lots of field time.  When the battalion has a major exercise you will go to the field with them and work in the Battalion HQ.  So think of a portable office under a giant tent.  The same is true for Brigade level postings.  Moreover, if your Battalion or Brigade deploys to Afghanistan, in all likeliness you will deploy with them as part of their Int support team.  Intelligence Officers are staff officers, which means you are employed in HQs for the most part.  That can be a dry comfy office in Ottawa, or a tent in the middle of the Arctic.

Air Force Int Os can be posted to any of the Wing's or Squadron's throughout the country working in their respective HQs providing Int support to flight operations of all kinds.  If you are part of a Tac Hel squadron you will have more of an Army experience then an Air experience so you can see the best and worst of both worlds.  Air guys can also be posted on either coast supporting maritime flight operations which means working very close with the Navy.  Whenever an Air element deploys, Air Int will go with them.  I don't have too much more info on the Air side as I haven't been exposed to much of it myself.  Otherwise they can also be posted to a number of positions in Ottawa and the Joint HQs throughout the country.

So bottom line, you spend the vast majority of your career hoping from one HQ to another.  Your job is to support the commander by providing him Int that he requires to successfully complete his mission.  So where he is, you will be.  You certainly wont see the same kind of field time as a combat arms guy, or sea time as a MARS officer would, but, there will be times when Army guys go to the field and Navy guys get to sail.  

As for a CT to the reg force as an Int O...  It will be extremely difficult.  The Int Branch is not expecting to take in very many to the trade in the next few years.  We currently have over 70 officers awaiting BIOC.  Average wait times for a course can be two years or more.

The best thing you can do right now is finish your degree.  Maybe start up a masters degree.  You can also look at commissioning as an Armoured Officer in the reserves first.  You will be one step closer that way.  Or you could try to transfer to a reserve Int Company as an NCM, or try to go in as an officer.  Regardless of which way you try to enhance your chances, you should still submit your CT request and get it in the Q.

Hope this helps.


----------



## ltmaverick25

George,

He sent me a PM asking for some answers and I asked him to post his original post here so that I could provide the answers to anyone looking for the information.  I was under the impression that the other thread had been locked.


----------



## Fergie

Thanks Ltmaverick25,

Your reply essentially spelled out most of the unknowns to me.  Recceguy, your post also helps tremendously (it never hurts to know those sort of "methods").

Having been under the impression that it's highly unlikely to CT into INT within a reasonable amount of time (though I'll put my name in the system), I have begun to look at options that will make me more competitive down the road.  These options are MARS officer (preferably aboard a sub) or Armour officer (preferably recce).  Obviously with my armour recce "experience" it would seem logical to continue along that path, however I do find a MARS officer career aboard subs (yes I'm looking a tad far ahead, but dare I dream? ;D) very appealing.  I want to "know" what's going on and have an impact on the big picture, hence my desire for INT, and both have a focus--amongst other tasks--on recce/surveillance (obviously in very different capacities) which I personally find appealing.  To this end I have two questions:

1) Which of these two paths is more relevant in terms of eventually transitioning into the Int O world?

2) Are there combat arms trades that are more "desirable" for incoming Int O candidates to have experience within (in the short-mid term)?

Any info/comments are greatly appreciated.  Thanks all,

-Fergie


----------



## ltmaverick25

That really depends on weather you want to be a Naval Int O or an Army Int O.  

If you want to be a Navy Int O then going MARS is a good route as you will suffer a huge credibility gap with the operators if you don't have any sea time.  You will also suffer an even bigger credibility gap among the Naval Int Os that are former MARS officers.  However, MARS, last time I checked was considered a red trade.  Meaning that once in the reg force it is extremely difficult to switch out to another trade.

As for desirable combat arms trades prior to Int...  That just comes down to a matter of opinion.  I personally don't think there is any such thing.  We have guys with a myriad of different backgrounds and quite a few who are fresh off the street.

What you really have to consider is which one of these trades would you be most happy serving in for your entire career.  Right now it is just as hard to VOT to Int O from another reg force trade as it is to CT.  So you want to make sure you are in a trade that you can see yourself doing over the long term just in case things don't work out.  

Also, if I am not mistaken, I think there is a minimum timeframe that you must serve in one trade before you can qualify to VOT to another one in the reg force.  So that is something you want look into as well.


----------



## stealthylizard

Int O can be direct entry, if you have the right credentials for it.  Int op, you must have 3 years previous service.


----------



## Journeyman

Fergie said:
			
		

> Recceguy, your post also helps tremendously (it never hurts to know those sort of "methods").


I don't think Recceguy was recommending that route, or being remotely complimentary to anyone who manipulates the system to benefit themselves to the detriment of those adhering to established procedures.

While I don't know the person he's describing, he certainly sounds like someone not to be depended upon in a team situation. I'm sure we've all met people who will blade anyone around them to get ahead.


----------



## Fergie

Journeyman,

That is the same impression I got from Recceguy's post.  I'll work on making sarcastic remarks more obvious... though it is still good to know for the sake of knowing  ;D 

On a serious note to those methods, in general I personally think it is good knowledge to have.  Not being fully aware of all options to carry out a task/goal is leaving your tool box partially empty, which is always foolish.  I personally like to think I am above that type of conduct (and I'm sure my colleagues would back that sentiment) and that others avoid such measures, but it is obviously foolish to assume so (as you point out we all know that "someone").  

What may have appeared to be an excellent opportunity initially may end hurting in the long run.  Recceguy's post made that more clear to me (which is helpful), as I had previously thought playing around with transfers would cut down on the wait, but would likely have repurcussions that outweigh the benefit of "getting in" quicker.  Your sentiment is appreciated and well taken.

-Fergie


----------



## Scott

Fergie said:
			
		

> Journeyman,
> 
> That is the same impression I got from Recceguy's post.  I'll work on making sarcastic remarks more obvious... though it is still good to know for the sake of knowing  ;D
> 
> On a serious note to those methods, in general I personally think it is good knowledge to have.  Not being fully aware of all options to carry out a task/goal is leaving your tool box partially empty, which is always foolish.  I personally like to think I am above that type of conduct (and I'm sure my colleagues would back that sentiment) and that others avoid such measures, but it is obviously foolish to assume so (as you point out we all know that "someone").
> 
> What may have appeared to be an excellent opportunity initially may end hurting in the long run.  Recceguy's post made that more clear to me (which is helpful), as I had previously thought playing around with transfers would cut down on the wait, but would likely have repurcussions that outweigh the benefit of "getting in" quicker.  Your sentiment is appreciated and well taken.
> 
> -Fergie



I trust that you are above those sorts of tactics. They're useless, really, because you eventually get found out to be a fraud and coffee table chit chat loves stories like these about abuse of a system, a system that all participants are involved in. Basically it starts to follow you around and you'll find that you lose credibility for everything - and right you should, hell, even here!

You're astute enough to figure out that any benefit you gain from plopping around will be done in, perhaps a few times over, by the methods you use...some people just aren't as bright as you are.

Cheers


----------



## airdelta2

I've searched the forum and could not find an answer to my question(s). 

Here goes:

Does a DEO Intelligence Officer require a Masters degree before being accepted as a DEO for Intel? The Brochure says Masters (for DEO) and the page for Intelligence Officer itself (for DEO) says "undergraduate degree". 

Feedback is appreciated.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Courtesy of Google - site:forces.ca intelligence officer

First hit - FORCES.CA - Intelligence Officer

Fact sheet tab - http://www.forces.ca/en/job/intelligenceofficer-76#info-1



> Direct Entry Officer – DEO applicants must hold an undergraduate degree from an accredited Canadian university, preferably in one of the areas of study listed under “Qualification Requirements”. Proficiency in some foreign languages may be an asset.





> INT Officers are normally required to have a university degree preferably in Economics, Geography, History, Imagery Science, Information Technology, International Studies, Journalism, Military and Strategic Studies, or Political Science.



You're welcome.


----------



## airdelta2

Thank You, I appreciate the help. 

Yes, I noticed it said undergraduate on the website. However, the brochure says this: "Direct Entry Officer – DEO applicants must hold a Master degree from an accredited Canadian university, preferably in one of the areas of study listed under “Qualification Requirements”. Proficiency in some foreign languages may be an asset." What you posted was qualifications requirements and this is on the next page (a few paragraphs under it). I will definitely talk to the RC tomorrow about whether or not the Master's is needed.


----------



## kratz

While you are eager to compare and note different information:



> Please do not quote this site as a reference.
> 
> MilNet.ca and her sister sites are privately owned and have no official affiliation with the CF.


----------



## airdelta2

I won't be saying that I found out the info from this site. On the CF officers page it says undergraduate degree (as one of the posters said) and it only says Master's in the brochure. So I will be comparing the info on the Forces official site compared to the official brochure for intel (the poster happened to post official info from the actual Forces intel officer webpage).


----------



## George Wallace

Using your Open Source Research skills is a must and you are not doing too well so far.  If you have read any of the info posted on this (unofficial) site, you will see that INT is overborn in applicants.  There is currently approx two years worth of people waiting to attempt to become INT officers.  That means that the standards are going to be very high, and the failure rate will match that standard.  

INT may no longer be recruiting off the street, and for there to be any openings for DEO they will probably be only for people who have actual intelligence backgrounds from previous service or another government agency.   

If you are aspiring to become a "James Bond" you should probably look for a job in the motion picture industry, as INT professionals do nothing along those lines.  INT Os and INT Ops do not have a "Licence to Kill", nor the mandate to spy on people.  They collate information collected in reports from their sources: Armour and Infantry Recce, Snipers, CIMIC, Arty FOO/FAC, and numerous other agencies and organizations and then disseminate information to the Comd so (s)he can make decisions.  They do not go out and actively gather information themselves.  They sit at desks.  

If you want a job in Intel their recruiting page is:  JOBS AT INTEL.


----------



## airdelta2

You make some assumptions about my knowledge of what an intel job entails. I am not trying to be James Bond. I am knowledgeable in the field of International Relations and have strong research/analytical skills in that field. I appreciate the help though, 2-3 years of being backed up would be enough to make me consider a different trade (especially if I was competing mainly against those with Master's degrees and 4-6 years experience). 

As far as unofficial info on this site, all the info I discussed is off the official Forces.ca site. I am going mainly by the 'official' site info and not speculation off the forum. However, what you said about 2 years backlog seems to be the general consensus anywhere I go (so it's probably more truth than speculation).


----------



## airdelta2

My other picks for DEO are pilot/ACSO/armour if intel is not a direct possibility.


----------



## blacktriangle

Just a hint. Here in Canada we refer to Intelligence as "Int" not "Intel". As George said, if you want a job with "Intel", click the link in his post. It will help to know little things like this if you are serious about getting your trade choice one day. 

 Best of luck with your application.


----------



## Hal Jordan

Just to corroborate what George said. A recruiter also told me that they usually hire people from other military trades i.e., maybe someone used to work in logistics so now they're switching to intelligence. As to your question about requiring a masters for intelligence officer, the answer is "no" according to my recruiter.Based on the CF website videos, your background in international relations is probably useful so don't be too discourage even if it's a competitive field.  

cheers

Hal


----------



## Webgear

From my understanding, you will have a great deal of difficultly becoming an Intelligence Officer because the branch is currently overloaded by 15%  in officer positions. 

I have recently heard from a friend that the branch is only taking in one or two new officers per year for the next three years in all recruiting programs.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Spectrum said:
			
		

> Just a hint. Here in Canada we refer to Intelligence as "Int" not "Intel".



Not true. I spent 26 years in the int branch, a lot of it in the air force, mostly in the fighter world and I can say that among fighter pilots we were usually referred to as "intel" not "int." Not sure whether other air force units (transport, tac hel, navy) used intel vice int or not.


----------



## airdelta2

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Not true. I spent 26 years in the int branch, a lot of it in the air force, mostly in the fighter world and I can say that among fighter pilots we were usually referred to as "intel" not "int." Not sure whether other air force units (transport, tac hel, navy) used intel vice int or not.



Anyone I've ever spoken to (U.S. or Canada) has said intel. Int sounds weird...like a bad nickname.

I am not discouraged but I did talk to recruiting today and I was told: "No masters required and your background will help. However, you will be competing with people who are already officers and have 4-6 years experience....and potentially a masters degree." I am guessing these officers want the job because maybe once you hit captain rank - you can just transfer and be a captain in a new field (rather than restart at 2nd lt). 

It's only one of my choices. I will also apply for ACSO - which I am preparing for (the testing). From what I hear AEC has a 10-15% passing rate, that's intense.


----------



## J.J

Spectrum said:
			
		

> Just a hint. Here in Canada we refer to Intelligence as "Int" not "Intel". As George said, if you want a job with "Intel", click the link in his post. It will help to know little things like this if you are serious about getting your trade choice one day.
> 
> Best of luck with your application.



In the military it is generally referred to as Int, but you may have heard intel used in a non-military context. CSIS and law enforcement agencies use Intel.


----------



## George Wallace

airdelta2 said:
			
		

> Anyone I've ever spoken to (U.S. or Canada) has said intel. Int sounds weird...like a bad nickname.



I'll be politically incorrect and say that that sounds just gay.  You will see and hear Americans and non-CF Canadians using the term RECON as well.  We in the CF use the term RECCE.   

As for our Air Force pilots using the term Intel; well they are pilots.  No need to say more on them.  Even Retired AF Guy uses the term INT in his profile.  He did not work for DGINTEL, but DGINT.  We don't refer to any of our types of Intelligence gathering as SIGINTEL, OPEN SOURCE INTEL, HUMINTEL, COMMINTEL, etc.  We use many different terms to describe what we do, that other nations don't use.   Just as if you went to England and were told to take the lift to room 303 and knock up Mr. X in the morning, you would have to learn to adapt and accept the different terminology of the locale.  Live with it.


----------



## Nauticus

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Using your Open Source Research skills is a must and you are not doing too well so far.  If you have read any of the info posted on this (unofficial) site, you will see that INT is overborn in applicants.  There is currently approx two years worth of people waiting to attempt to become INT officers.  That means that the standards are going to be very high, and the failure rate will match that standard.
> 
> INT may no longer be recruiting off the street, and for there to be any openings for DEO they will probably be only for people who have actual intelligence backgrounds from previous service or another government agency.
> 
> *If you are aspiring to become a "James Bond" you should probably look for a job in the motion picture industry, as INT professionals do nothing along those lines.  INT Os and INT Ops do not have a "Licence to Kill", nor the mandate to spy on people.  They collate information collected in reports from their sources: Armour and Infantry Recce, Snipers, CIMIC, Arty FOO/FAC, and numerous other agencies and organizations and then disseminate information to the Comd so (s)he can make decisions.  They do not go out and actively gather information themselves.  They sit at desks.  *
> 
> If you want a job in Intel their recruiting page is:  JOBS AT INTEL.


Oh, godamnit. I better go cancel my CT...


----------



## xFlashx

Sorry to barge in. Was just reading thread....

Some guys previously mentioned how Intelligence officer ranks would be over filled.... Wondering what the case is for the Int Ops??

That is my goal.. (not officer) was wondering if they are similarly filling up at the NCM level?

Thx for any info. NP if not.


----------



## GreenIsGood

You should be asking the CF this question, since they are responsible for the info in question.

I had the same question you had, and asked a CF recruiter the day after you posted your question. Here is the answer I got: "A Masters was preferred and a bachelors was accepted for DEO. However Int O is no longer available for DEO since its [sic] receptor."

I hope the helps.


----------



## ltmaverick25

Sorry for the late responce..

I know that the branch is full on WOs now, and short on Sgts.  However, I dont know what that translates into as far as availability for new Int Ops.  I will try to find out this week.


----------



## airdelta2

Receptor? What's that mean?


----------



## GreenIsGood

According to the recruiter I spoke with, 'receptor' means you have to be a current serving member of the CF to apply for that trade.


----------



## Nauticus

Generally speaking, intelligence is very hard to apply directly into without prior military experience, unless you have some relevant experience. Having intelligence experience as a civvy is very hard to do, unless you've taken courses in the past, or unless you've worked for a "public" agency that does it (policing, CSIS, etc).

I'm not speaking for a recruiter, but due to Int O being allegedly 15% overmanned, I would suspect that the very few positions that may be available over the next few years would sooner be offered to current or previous serving members of the CF.


----------



## George Wallace

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> Sorry for the late responce..
> 
> I know that the branch is full on WOs now, and short on Sgts.  However, I dont know what that translates into as far as availability for new Int Ops.  I will try to find out this week.



Not much information there.  No one is going to come into the Trade as a WO or even a Sgt.  There is still, to the best of my knowledge, a fair amount of openings for INT OPs.  

I am curious as to where ltmaverick25 has progressed in the backlog of people awaiting BIOC, as I see another BIOC and 6A Crse have appeared and will be starting very, very soon, and may not have yet made it to any of the webpages.


----------



## ltmaverick25

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Not much information there.  No one is going to come into the Trade as a WO or even a Sgt.  There is still, to the best of my knowledge, a fair amount of openings for INT OPs.
> 
> I am curious as to where ltmaverick25 has progressed in the backlog of people awaiting BIOC, as I see another BIOC and 6A Crse have appeared and will be starting very, very soon, and may not have yet made it to any of the webpages.



Thats confirmed, I had the opportunity to ask that question this week and according to the branch advisor there is still a healthy demand for INT OPs.

As for BIOC, mine is complete.  There is one about to start at the end of May in Kingston, another ongoing in Borden and another ongoing in Quebec.  I think Quebec is also planning on running another one this fall.


----------



## alexs47

Hi all!

I sent in my application around a week ago for the reserves, and i am wondering when they will contact me. The reason why i am concerned is because i am going back to university in 3 weeks and it would be nice to finish the whole process before i leave.

Also, a quick question. What is the process in becoming an intelligence officer after basic training? I am currently studying philosophy and i know that is not one of their recommended areas to begin a career in intelligence, but i am fully-fledged to learn every aspect of the intelligence community.

Thanks for your time, it is much appriciated!


----------



## m.k

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I do not believe any trade in Intelligence (NCM or Officer) is open to Direct Entry


----------



## The Bread Guy

Try here and here.

A head's up - some might think that a university student in the liberal arts (and someone considering becoming an intelligence officer)  might know something about finding information beyond, "hey, someone wanna tell me....."


----------



## PMedMoe

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Try here and here.



And don't forget here.


----------



## Nauticus

alexs47 said:
			
		

> Hi all!
> 
> I sent in my application around a week ago for the reserves, and i am wondering when they will contact me. The reason why i am concerned is because i am going back to university in 3 weeks and it would be nice to finish the whole process before i leave.
> 
> Also, a quick question. What is the process in becoming an intelligence officer after basic training? I am currently studying philosophy and i know that is not one of their recommended areas to begin a career in intelligence, but i am fully-fledged to learn every aspect of the intelligence community.
> 
> Thanks for your time, it is much appriciated!


Have you learned any aspects of the intelligence community yet?


----------



## alexs47

hey Nauticus

ive read books on a variety of topics that deal with intelligence gathering 
the topics range from the USA's keyhole satellite program(Deep Black by William Burrows, and America's Secret Eyes in Space by Jeffrey Richelson) to terrorism (Al- Qaeda by Jason Burke) as well as cyberwarfare (Cyberwar by Richard Clarke)

I just started reading Silent Warfare by Abram Shulsky and Gary Schmitt 

by no means am i trying to say i am an 'expert' or well read within the topics, it is just something that fascinates me greatly and i would love to be involved in


----------



## medicineman

A suggestion - Int O's give a lot of briefings, often with Power Point, as well as presenting written briefs and reports.  Therefore, they have to be able to present things with good grammar, spelling and punctuation.  Want to make yourself more credible?  Start doing it here and get in the habit, lest you have those briefings and reports fired back at you.  It'll likely help you in university as well.

MM


----------



## RCDtpr

As to your question on when you will be contacted.  A buddy of mine in recruiting is telling me your slated to be called on January 13 2012 at 1037 and 43 seconds.


----------



## frank1515

RCDcpl said:
			
		

> As to your question on when you will be contacted.  A buddy of mine in recruiting is telling me your slated to be called on January 13 2012 at 1037 and 43 seconds.



Can you rub your crystal ball one more time and let me know when I'll get the call?!  >  ;D


----------



## Ayrsayle

m.k said:
			
		

> Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I do not believe any trade in Intelligence (NCM or Officer) is open to Direct Entry



From what I have been informed, it is possible - but highly unlikely (read, you'd usually expect to see a qualified applicant speaking numerous languages, top notch marks, a masters degree, etc). I actually started off applying as an INT O, and was informed of this during my process. Not to say that I wouldn't have been a good INT O, but the more likely route is through transfer later on. They tend to take so few from direct entry as to make it very unlikely.

Again, this is what I have been told from recruiters. It is also not currently open (as in, at all - no spots whatsoever)


----------



## alexs47

Thank you for all your help!

I now have a clearer interpretation of the applicant process in becoming an intelligence officer and my current situation. As a proud Canadian planning on joining the reserves I will give you all my word that I will work my hardest to better Canada as a country. My word may not be much, but I am planning on demonstrating it at every level and situation. Lastly, more than ever now am I determined in becoming an intelligence officer knowing it is a matter of my will and determination in overcoming an obstacle.

Once again thank you all for your help and hopefully one day I will be in your shoes helping someone out.

PS. If I could I would take you all out for beers.


----------



## Greymatters

Ayrsayle said:
			
		

> From what I have been informed, it is possible - but highly unlikely (read, you'd usually expect to see a qualified applicant speaking numerous languages, top notch marks, a masters degree, etc). I actually started off applying as an INT O, and was informed of this during my process. Not to say that I wouldn't have been a good INT O, but the more likely route is through transfer later on. They tend to take so few from direct entry as to make it very unlikely.



Take it with a grain of salt.  Of all the persons who pass the tests for getting into the Int trade (officer and NCO) only a very small percentage are a template for a Tom Clancy character like you described above...


----------



## Ayrsayle

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Take it with a grain of salt.  Of all the persons who pass the tests for getting into the Int trade (officer and NCO) only a very small percentage are a template for a Tom Clancy character like you described above...



Fair enough and a very good point - I assume the process (and requirements) to get into INT as an Officer or NCM is entirely varied depending on entry plan. I know of a few ROTP candidates who do not seem to meet those requirements (grins). In contrast then all I can accurately portray is my own experience - I applied and did well on my Cfat as an applicant for INT O (at least, I was told I qualified for it up to that point), graduated with honors with a degree in History (one of the "suggested" degrees). I did not have a second language nor a masters degree.

I assume that previous experience in a similar field might also weigh in favourably - again, outside of my experience. Either way, the Trade was not open while I was applying for it - which made any of my attempts to get in rather moot. Perhaps it is not always so - I did not sit on the list waiting to find out, as being an Infantry Officer appealed to me equally. Always a (potential) option later, if the Infantry isn't everything I hope it will be.


----------



## Conker

Hi,

I'm seriously considering joining as an intelligence specialist. It's currently closed, but according to my recruiter, it's highly likely that there's going to be a couple positions openings in late February/early March. I did my homework (read the forces.gc.ca description, spoke with the recruiter, etc) and all that basic information and that's appealing to me.

That being said, even though the recruiter told me that direct entry is possible, reading posts on this very forum are making me believe that it's not as easy as he made it sound like.

I'm 19, have completed 2 years (out of 4) in mechanical engineering (DEC, in Quebec... not university) but pretty much lost all motivation as I've been idealizing it since I was 10, and being actually in the program made me realize that it wasn't really the kid's dream I had.
Considering that even if in theory (based on the recruiting website), there's no specific requirements for INT besides speaking english, I understand I probably won't get in with what I currently have so my intention is joining in "Social Studies, Global Issues" (Sciences humaines, Enjeux internationaux being the original program name) for next semester.

Thoughts? Tips for the INT field?

(Meanwhile, I'm reading other threads about this carrier field)


----------



## Miller97

Thats what i originally wanted to do before and everyone in the cfrc in my hometown laughed at me and said its very hard to get into off the street.

Good luck!


----------



## jasonf6

I know some trades are OT only (least I think some are) but of all the people I know who are INT are OTs (former Infantry).


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Unless things have changed in the last few years you cannot join the Int Branch as a basic Pte. You have to join some other trade, spend a few years in that trade, be promoted to Cpl and* then *request transfer into the Int Branch.  On the officer side, when I retired ('05) there was talk of officers coming in direct from RMC into the trade, not sure if it actually happened.


----------



## The Bread Guy

FLY3 - Loads of information here:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/92756.0.html
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/43142.0.html
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/31120.0.html
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/12858.0.html
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/101102.0.html
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/19140.0.html
Loads of thoughts and tips here for your chosen "career" field.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Given the number of enquiries regarding joining the Int Branch while in the recruiting process, I've pulled together related threads into one mega-thread to have all the info in as few threads as possible.

*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## Greymatters

Looks good, any new persons should be able to learn just about all they need to know in this thread...


----------



## Conker

Much appreciated, thank you, and thanks to all who answered.

Lots of advice and food for thought, that will be helpful.


----------



## Arctic Acorn

This is a bit of a bump, but just to get this out there to Reserve folks, if you really want to be successful as an Int Op/Int O in the CF, do yourself (and the Branch) a favour and get a few years in another trade first. The combat arms is preferable, but anything is better than nothing...just pick something and do it. Although the Reg Force has toyed with the idea of bringing folks from off the street as Int Ops (and Int Os, which I believe has been more of a long-standing practice, mainly through RMC), this has been more of a Reserve thing. 

I'm saying this as someone who joined off the street into the Branch at a reserve training unit almost thirteen years ago, and spent most of that as an NCM before commissioning. After two deployments and more exercises supporting other units than I can count, I can honestly say that I regret not spending time in another trade first. I learned a lot of very hard lessons, and I fell flat on face a lot just not knowing the culture of the combat arms. You can learn it (and I had to), but being tossed into a Battle Group for a deployment when you don't understand the first thing about how an Infantry Battalion/Armoured Squadron, etc works helps no one, least of all yourself. 

More than anything, this job is based around credibility. Having a previous background (obviously some trades have more direct utility than others for the Branch), can be tremendously useful. What you know, and how you present it, means everything. How you learned it, and having those creditentials (especially if you are in the combat arms first) will make your life a hell of a lot easier. Using a 'worst-case scenario', trying to build a rapport with a group of Type-A personalities with zero time for someone who doesn't have a clue of what they do and what their capabilities are does the Branch no favours. 

To be blunt, if you 'really want to join the Branch', bring something to the table. It will make life easier for you, and allows you to better support those you're dedicating yourself to (from Pte Bloggings about to head outside the wire for a patrol to the commander and their staff). 

Just my  :2c:, but I earned both of those pennies the hard way.


----------



## Erix1990

its a trade ive been looking into as a second choice, but im curious to see if anyone on here has past experience in intel, like im curious if it is possible to choose outside operations in the field instead of being cooped up in an operations base and be on computers all day..., if anyone can give me past experience id greatly appreciate it

Thanks, Eric.


----------



## The Bread Guy

1)  the "Op" in "Int Op" is short for "operator", not "operative"
2)  There's a WHOLE thread dealing with nothing but this stuff right here:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/12858.0.html

In fact, let me bring you over there - care to follow me this way......?

*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## david890

Hello!

I am interested in applying for the regular officer training program. I would like to give a bit of information about myself to see if I would be eligible/well-suited.

First off, I studied one year of sciences at McGill, hated it, and so I took this year to study arts courses part time. I have now transferred into arts at McGill and will be doing a BA in political science, hopefully with an emphasis on international relations and North American studies. Including the upcoming year, I will have 3 years left to complete my degree.

I am wondering if I would qualify based on academics, and if they would mind only paying for 2 or 3 years of education. My marks were quite good this year...To the best of my knowledge, we must apply by mid January to be accepted for the following year? Or is there any way for the upcoming year at McGill to be subsidized? Can someone please explain what would be the situation with my educational background. Thank you.

I am in great shape (do track etc.), love my country, and am passionate about potentially serving. I need to know, however, more details about the paid education. 

I did find this earlier in the thread, but if someone could please elaborate on it and relate it a bit more to my situation (such as when to apply, etc.) that would be fantastic! Thanks!!


"2) You can apply for entry into the regular force under the Regular Officer Training Plan even if you still have some post-secondary under your belt, provided that upon your enrollment, you will still have a minimum of 2 years worth of schooling to go in your degree. Keep in mind that not all schools use the same "credit" system as yours may, so stating that you have 15 credits may be meaningless.

3) Wait until the new fiscal year, and then go into the recruiting centre to tell them that you would like to enrol as an ROTP candidate as an IntO. 

4) You incur obligatory service at the rate of 2 months obligatory service per month of education subsidized. "


----------



## Greymatters

If no one has already told you, probably best to check with your local recruting center and find out if there are any openings are out there at all, given the current reduction in staffing and recruitment across the country...


----------



## Spooks

Erix1990 said:
			
		

> its a trade ive been looking into as a second choice, but im curious to see if anyone on here has past experience in intel, like im curious if it is possible to choose outside operations in the field instead of being cooped up in an operations base and be on computers all day..., if anyone can give me past experience id greatly appreciate it
> 
> Thanks, Eric.



I suppose I should make a note on this (from what I know) since it appears that the Hollywood misconception of Int (in Canada, it's Int, not Intel). As an IntOp, you will be in the HQ pretty much 99% of your time. You will be given a task such as collater (Cpl or Senior member's job) which means you take all the int coming into you and you organize it so it can make sense. Then you have the plotter (juniormost postion) where you get to draw symbols on a map. This is where you will be as a prettymuch guarantee. If you want to go 'into the field' and gather int there then perhaps IntOp is not the job for you.

FieldInt is gathered by all ranks, by all people, given to the section Cmdr in the debriefing and he gives it up to the collator. By the way the book goes, members with the TIOC (Tactical Intelligence Operator's Course) cut in between and are actually the ones that gather all the mission reports to put up, take the IntBriefings and give them to the individual Coys or patrols, and if need be, are the ones tasked to go out and take measurements or photos for the HQ IntCell. Not that much more glamorous, but it gets you out with the feet on the ground.

The Hollywood-ized 'getting contacts to feed you info' is neither one of them, is nowhere as cool and 10x more frustrating (being fed bad intel, etc), and is a course people take from any trade that enables you to gather HUMINT (Human Intelligence). If you want the Int gathering where you go out in a hide and spy optically on the enemy's postions, (physically there, not using UAVs) then join the combat arms and go Recce. If you want to fly UAVs and gather Int for others on direction, then go Air Force. Essentially, if you want to do 'frontline int' where you are doing information gathering right from the source, it is usually done by another trade. That ends up leaving three fields that progressively get you further out of 'the office' IntOp - TIOC - HUMINT gatherers.

I understand that this post may make you wonder 'why should I even go Int?' Well, Int is pretty cool b/c you deal with a lot of different factors. Us TIOC guys only have to worry about a small slice of the cake while Int gets to worry about it all. Being know ledgable in history and current events in a big plus. My friend went Int (from infantry)and it seems that he is a walking encyclopedia of information, which I find to be cool. I ask him about one little thing and he can tell you 10years of history altering events which led up to that event I questioned about. With the statement that 'Knowledge is Power', Int definitely makes it true. Int is about taking the raw data from other sources and making sense of it. Since you get info from multiple sources, it's easier for you to verify and collate information that is useful.

Disclaimer: I am TIOC qualified but I am not including specialty courses that people can take for OpSec reasons. This was merely a post to illustrate that 'field int' is something not done by the Int trade. TIOC, for those who are by the old books, is the new name for Cbt Int.

Edit: Spelling. I embarrassed myself enough to correct it.


----------



## aesop081

GhostofJacK said:
			
		

> This was merely a post to illustrate that 'field int' is something not done by the Int trade.



The same can be said for the INT guys on the air side.


----------



## Spooks

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> The same can be said for the INT guys on the air side.



I modified the last post to hopefully illustrate that, CDN.


----------



## OldSolduer

GhostofJacK said:
			
		

> I modified the last post to hopefully illustrate that, CDN.



Advanced Cbt Int here. Jack has it right.

Int Ops mark maps, collate, analyze and all the rest of the Int stuff.

Everyone in the BG is a potential source...not just organizations  but individuals.


----------



## Greymatters

Quote from: Erix1990 on March 08, 2012, 21:10:56


How the heck did you get a quote from a date that has yet to occur?  


Aside from that, former Int Op here.  Adding to the multitude, you spend most of your time in an office, reading information.  If you want to be an Int Op, and be good at it, you better like reading and analysis.  Like already stated, if you want the field work, go Infantry, or Military Police.  

In the previous two decades, there was a lot of work outside the office for an Int Op in the right place at the right time due to many ongoing operations and deployments, but with the reduction in overseas activity and changes in Intelligence back to elemental lines, the chances for field work are a lot lower than they used to be.  Some guys spend their entire careers driving a desk, with the occasional time away for courses or conferences.


----------



## Spooks

Greymatters said:
			
		

> How the heck did you get a quote from a date that has yet to occur?



Um, well, it was a post 4 before my first one, so all I did was hit the 'quote' button on it. Not to be a dink or anything, but March comes before May on a normal Gregorian calendar. If you are simply joking, then I am a dink and I apologize.


----------



## OldSolduer

Greymatters said:
			
		

> How the heck did you get a quote from a date that has yet to occur?



They do it on Star Trek all the time....and March does come before May. We  may be infantree but we r sum smrt sumtymes to.


----------



## The_Falcon

david890 said:
			
		

> Hello!
> 
> I am interested in applying for the regular officer training program. I would like to give a bit of information about myself to see if I would be eligible/well-suited.
> 
> First off, I studied one year of sciences at McGill, hated it, and so I took this year to study arts courses part time. I have now transferred into arts at McGill and will be doing a BA in political science, hopefully with an emphasis on international relations and North American studies. Including the upcoming year, I will have 3 years left to complete my degree.
> 
> I am wondering if I would qualify based on academics, and if they would mind only paying for 2 or 3 years of education. My marks were quite good this year...To the best of my knowledge, we must apply by mid January to be accepted for the following year? Or is there any way for the upcoming year at McGill to be subsidized? Can someone please explain what would be the situation with my educational background. Thank you.
> 
> I am in great shape (do track etc.), love my country, and am passionate about potentially serving. I need to know, however, more details about the paid education.
> 
> I did find this earlier in the thread, but if someone could please elaborate on it and relate it a bit more to my situation (such as when to apply, etc.) that would be fantastic! Thanks!!
> 
> 
> "2) You can apply for entry into the regular force under the Regular Officer Training Plan even if you still have some post-secondary under your belt, provided that upon your enrollment, you will still have a minimum of 2 years worth of schooling to go in your degree. Keep in mind that not all schools use the same "credit" system as yours may, so stating that you have 15 credits may be meaningless.
> 
> 3) Wait until the new fiscal year, and then go into the recruiting centre to tell them that you would like to enrol as an ROTP candidate as an IntO.
> 
> 4) You incur obligatory service at the rate of 2 months obligatory service per month of education subsidized. "



There are no external positions for either IntOp or IntO for this FY.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

GhostofJacK said:
			
		

> I suppose I should make a note on this (from what I know) since it appears that the Hollywood misconception of Int (in Canada, it's Int, not Intel).


 Just a minor quibble the time I spent in Air Force Intelligence were referred to for the most part, as intel, and in rubbed off on us after a while. Minor point, but its just a personal bugbear of mine. 

As for the rest of your post, you are right on the ball. As an Int Op 99 % of your time its sitting in the HQ marking maps/updating databases/analyzing information/preparing reports, etc. Another aspect is that the Int trade has become very hi-tech and a lot of your work involves computers, so any computer skills are a bonus. 

The only times that I can see someone deploying into the field is if you are a HUMINT operator, interrogator (best course I was every on!), counter-intelligence or possibly psych-ops. Unfortunately, I've been retired for a few years, so I'm not sure what the status of these trades are. 

As for the navy, I know in the past Int Officers did deploy with the ships. Not sure if Int Ops deployed with the ships or not. 

The only other positions that are of interest are embassy postings, however, those are Sgt positions and pretty hard to get.


----------



## Greymatters

GhostofJacK said:
			
		

> Um, well, it was a post 4 before my first one, so all I did was hit the 'quote' button on it. Not to be a dink or anything, but March comes before May on a normal Gregorian calendar. If you are simply joking, then I am a dink and I apologize.



Ack, I thought it said May, my mistake...


----------



## maestro67

Hey there guys, 

So I've spent a day and a half reading tons of forum posts and literature from the forces site...

At first I wanted to be a log officer...but then I stumbled upon the Intel officer (I unchecked the "now accepting apps" on the site). I really really like the description.

Anyway's here's me in a nut shell:
-Recently graduated with a bachelors in commerce
-GPA is abit low (2.97/4.00)
-Fresh outta school and no real professional experience
-I've been reading current events and news publications since I could afford the $$ to (15?)
-I have pretty bad vision, like -6 with some astigmatism
-Physically very fit

*My question is*: does anyone know if you have to be a current forces officer in another branch/etc to get in? It sounds logical from one post, as you do not want idiots in there who have no idea how the combat arm is done. But at the same time, I don't think I could ever qualify for a combat role due to my vision.
I don't want to send my application in, only to get persuaded/sweet talked into a role I do not want to do. Although at this point, I think I'd really enjoy the logistics role. Lastly, my impressions are that I am either too late on applying and/or it's extremely competitive for officer spots now?


----------



## Franko

maestro67 said:
			
		

> Hey there guys,
> 
> So I've spent a day and a half reading tons of forum posts and literature from the forces site...
> 
> At first I wanted to be a log officer...but then I stumbled upon the Intel officer (I unchecked the "now accepting apps" on the site). I really really like the description.
> 
> Anyway's here's me in a nut shell:
> -Recently graduated with a bachelors in commerce
> -GPA is abit low (2.97/4.00)
> -Fresh outta school and no real professional experience
> -I've been reading current events and news publications since I could afford the $$ to (15?)
> -I have pretty bad vision, like -6 with some astigmatism
> -Physically very fit
> 
> *My question is*: does anyone know if you have to be a current forces officer in another branch/etc to get in? It sounds logical from one post, as you do not want idiots in there who have no idea how the combat arm is done. But at the same time, I don't think I could ever qualify for a combat role due to my vision.
> I don't want to send my application in, only to get persuaded/sweet talked into a role I do not want to do. Although at this point, I think I'd really enjoy the logistics role. Lastly, my impressions are that I am either too late on applying and/or it's extremely competitive for officer spots now?



Short answer: go and talk to a recruiter.

Regards


----------



## maestro67

Nerf herder said:
			
		

> Short answer: go and talk to a recruiter.
> 
> Regards



Yeah, I guess I will have to send in my application just to get a sit down talk. My local officer recruitment office is not accepting anything but online now...guess they don't want people wasting their time haha.


----------



## PuckChaser

Simple call the 1-800 number, they can tell you right away the requirements to become an Int O (intel is a US term).


----------



## zClassified

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Simple call the 1-800 number, they can tell you right away the requirements to become an Int O (intel is a US term).



good luck trying to get  hold of a recruiter!


----------



## The_Falcon

maestro67 said:
			
		

> Hey there guys,
> 
> So I've spent a day and a half reading tons of forum posts and literature from the forces site...
> 
> At first I wanted to be a log officer...but then I stumbled upon the Intel officer (I unchecked the "now accepting apps" on the site). I really really like the description.
> 
> Anyway's here's me in a nut shell:
> -Recently graduated with a bachelors in commerce
> -GPA is abit low (2.97/4.00)
> -Fresh outta school and no real professional experience
> -I've been reading current events and news publications since I could afford the $$ to (15?)
> -I have pretty bad vision, like -6 with some astigmatism
> -Physically very fit
> 
> *My question is*: does anyone know if you have to be a current forces officer in another branch/etc to get in? It sounds logical from one post, as you do not want idiots in there who have no idea how the combat arm is done. But at the same time, I don't think I could ever qualify for a combat role due to my vision.
> I don't want to send my application in, only to get persuaded/sweet talked into a role I do not want to do. Although at this point, I think I'd really enjoy the logistics role. Lastly, my impressions are that I am either too late on applying and/or it's extremely competitive for officer spots now?



Longer answer is, the requirements are on the Forces.ca website, however Int both Regular Force Officer and NCM are not recruiting off the street, the only positions available are for occupational transfer from other Regular Force occupations, or skilled transfer from Reserve Int.


----------



## Lost boy

So, for a long time I have not known what I want to be. But I think I want to be an intelligence officer after researching it. I was wondering how I would do that. If any one would help me, I can answer any questions you have to help me become an intelligence officer. I am 16 right now, and still I high school. I get good grades and am in all sciences and in all academic(university) level courses. If someone could help me out I would appreciate it.
Thanks, 
Lost boy


----------



## The Bread Guy

Lost Boy:  If you want to do more research, try this thread right here - chock full of 9 pages of people also wanting to get into intelligence.....
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/12858.0.html

In fact, you and your post will be moving there shortly.

"Search" can be your friend - use it.

*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## Lost boy

Is there someone I can talk to about becoming an intelligence officers, like through e-mail or the phone I have lots of questions, I am only 16 and really want to become an intelligence officer.


----------



## Spooks

Lost boy said:
			
		

> Is there someone I can talk to about becoming an intelligence officers, like through e-mail or the phone I have lots of questions, I am only 16 and really want to become an intelligence officer.



Regardless if the trade is accepting mbrs from the street or not, if you REALLY want to be an IntO and your heart is set on it, I would highly suggest you get a commission in another trade first and then transfer over. Furthermore, I would suggest taking a job in a Combat Arms if you want to become an IntO in the Army (Navy/Air Force, I'm not sure what they like for their IntOs to be first). The reason for this is that in the Combat Arms, you gain an understanding of what is or isn't important. You know what you sort of Int you like to receive b/c the lives of you and your men depend on it. Coming into the trade off the street, you may know what the battlefield overview in COD looks like, but you do not have an appreciation of what Int really is like (usually). If you are 16, you have time to adjust your plan an incorporate what you need.


----------



## OldSolduer

And I certainly agree with Ghost. We need folks who have "walked the walk".


----------



## George Wallace

That amongst other qualities that you will get in those years.....Maturity and being able to think outside the box.  

I highly recommend the Combat Arms (whatever element, Land, Sea or Air).  You know what it is like to be in the "Trenches" and what you would like to know.  You get to see the actual vehicles you may have to talk/brief about and know what they are as opposed to reading a book and looking at pictures.  You learn what a Section, Platoon, Coy, etc. are and as you progress how to mark what they are on a map.   Experience gained here will help later.  

I hope you were not thinking that you could become a "James Bond" with a 'Licence to Kill'.


----------



## Journeyman

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I hope you were not thinking that you could become a "James Bond" with a 'Licence to Kill'.


Although.......if you were to walk into a Mess, or a Base-side bar, and pompously order a "martini, shaken not stirred," you may learn some other lessons that could serve you well -- whether you go Int or not.   :nod:


----------



## PMedMoe

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Although.......if you were to walk into a Mess, or a Base-side bar, and pompously order a "martini, shaken not stirred," you may learn some other lessons that could serve you well -- whether you go Int or not.   :nod:



I bet there's not one bartender working at a Mess who could make a proper martini.....


----------



## Journeyman

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I bet there's not one bartender working at a Mess who could make a proper martini.....


Only fair; I couldn't identify a "proper" martini.     :cheers:


----------



## Greymatters

I would be hard pressed to believe anybody was a member of a military intelligence organization, in any country, or from any country, if they ordered a martini.  Or any drink with an umbrella in it.


----------



## George Wallace

Greymatters said:
			
		

> I would be hard pressed to believe anybody was a member of a military intelligence organization, in any country, or from any country, if they ordered a martini.  Or any drink with an umbrella in it.



Oh!  I don't know.  Have you met many?  You may be surprised.   >


----------



## PMedMoe

Greymatters said:
			
		

> I would be hard pressed to believe anybody was a member of a military intelligence organization, in any country, or from any country, if they ordered a martini.  Or any drink with an umbrella in it.



I'm no expert, but I've never seen a martini with an umbrella in it....


----------



## GAP

Greymatters said:
			
		

> I would be hard pressed to believe anybody was a member of a military intelligence organization, in any country, or from any country, if they ordered a martini.  Or any drink with an umbrella in it.



Oxymoron?


----------



## Greymatters

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Oh!  I don't know.  Have you met many?  You may be surprised.   >



George, are you suggsting that you drink Martinis...!


----------



## GAP

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I'm no expert, but I've never seen a martini with an umbrella in it....



They fall out when you tip them up to quickly..... :nod:


----------



## George Wallace

Greymatters said:
			
		

> George, are you suggsting that you drink Martinis...!



On occassion I have been know to.....w/o the umbrellas.......Then again there was that time at Drops Disco in Goldscheuer where I had some very large fancy drink with at least three sparklers in it.......and maybe an umbrella.........Would that count?


----------



## Greymatters

If that's not proof of current or former membership in some sort of super-spy organization, I dont know what is...    ;D


----------



## PMedMoe

GAP said:
			
		

> They fall out when you tip them up to quickly..... :nod:



Oh, _that's_ what I'm doing wrong.   :facepalm:

Actually, I think one is more likely to get a toothpick in the eye....


----------



## Loachman

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Drops Disco in Goldscheuer



Oooohhh!!!!

Memories.

Fuzzy memories.


----------



## George Wallace

Loachman said:
			
		

> Oooohhh!!!!
> 
> Memories.
> 
> Fuzzy memories.




As you are here, you obviously managed to pay your tab and get out........(Exit was through a gate similar to what you find on the TTC subways, operated by the Cash Register as you paid off your Club Card which somehow had a record of all the drinks you had......still haven't figured out how that worked.....but it did away with the Bartenders dealing with cash........Lose your card and you pay DM50 to get out.)


----------



## Loachman

I do recall checking my pocket every few minutes to make sure that I had not lost it.


----------



## Numerwiz

I've been looking around the forum, reading things, as the Military has been a great interest for me for many years. I have found great heaps of information about combat units (infantry, armour, artillery and the like) but I don't seem to be lucky in finding much details about Intelligence officers. 

All I know is that one should have a degree in Geography, Economics or International Studies, with a Master's preferable. All IO's go through Basic Officers Training and a few other training courses. And then specialty training. 

What I want to know is that since this isn't a combat rank, what are the medical requirements, specifically eyesight. And am I correct to assume that there are subdivisions within the category of "Intelligence officer", as in some individuals might be assigned to tasks where they are deemed better, such as Person A being assigned Field Work and Person B serving as an analyst.

I hope I've posted this in the correct forum. I look forward to hearing your answers.


----------



## mariomike

Numerwiz said:
			
		

> <snip> I don't seem to be lucky in finding much details about Intelligence officers.



You may find some here.

"I want to be Int" Mega-thread:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/12858.0



			
				Numerwiz said:
			
		

> What I want to know is that since this isn't a combat rank, what are the medical requirements, specifically eyesight.



"Minimum Medical Standards for Officers/Non-Commissioned":
http://www.forces.gc.ca/health-sante/pd/CFP-PFC-154/AN-E-eng.asp


----------



## GnyHwy

The medical requirements do not sub divide. It is the same for all Int Os.  However, Int O medical requirements are lower than the combat arms in vision (V), geographic(G), and operational (O) categories.

An unofficial explanation of these would be. With lower numbers being a higher standard.  For combat arms your categories would need to be V3,G2,02.  For Int O is is V4,G3,O3.

Essentially 

Combat arms
V3 - have good vision already, or be able to be corrected
G2 - be able to be away form medical specialist for at least 1 year
O2 - have no physical limitations (do physically demanding work)

Int O
V4  - up to 6/60, but your vision can be corrected.
G3 - as long as you can spend at least 6 months away from medical specialist treatment
O3 - you can do a job physically harder than desk duties, but don't necessarily have to.  More importantly, you are not limited to a desk.

Once again, a very vague and unofficial answer to your question.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Many would also argue that there's more than just 'a few' questions about Intelligence Officers


----------



## Jack-44M

Hey guys, I am currently finishing my second year at university (Major: Political Science Minor:Journalism) and and considering joining the C.F and specifically the intelligence officer trade. I was wondering if anyone could provide me with any advice on the best path towards this potential career are and the steps I can be currently taking to pursue it. 

Cheers,


----------



## Spooks

Jack-44M said:
			
		

> Hey guys, I am currently finishing my second year at university (Major: Political Science Minor:Journalism) and and considering joining the C.F and specifically the intelligence officer trade. I was wondering if anyone could provide me with any advice on the best path towards this potential career are and the steps I can be currently taking to pursue it.
> 
> Cheers,



Well, as stated many times before this post - get some experience in the combat arms. Maybe join the reserves while still going to school. I do not know how easy it is to OT from InfO to IntO but that is a possibility. It may seem really pertinant to you that there were 20x IED attacks spread out across the city, but you neglect to care about the operational AA battery 5km outside the city. As a person getting the Int, yes, the IED attacks tell me that there is likely a bomb cell in the area, but the AA means my medilift could be endangered. Being in the combat arms can show you what is important or cared about by the audeience that gets the Int. (I am not saying that it definitely will be the case where you gain unlimited enlightenment on what matters and what doesn't, but you -may- learn aspects that are important like slowing down and maintaining an objective view rather than spinning)

Intelligence is simply not regurgitating information - which is simply reporting. I am not judging your minor nor do I have much experience dealing with it, but I envision that journalism is basically like 'telling what is going on' which anyone can do. While procducing intelligence through the Intelligence process, you are still telling what is happening but you have to determine -why - you are telling it. Just like the news world is now, you will be bombarded with tonnes of info about everything. Intelligence is having the ability to pick through that information and pull out what is needed. In no way is being an InO/IntOp the 'going out behind enemy lines and pulling the casette from the hidden voice recorder in the enemy's bunker' sort of deal. You will never even be embedded in a patrol and gather your Int first hand as you likely will always be in a room at a computer. Before anyone here says 'But what about...?' I will re-affirm that there are some gucci tasks/courses/roles you can do in the trade but only a small percentage of people get chosen for it and you primarily should be okay with what your job regularily should do on a day-to-day basis. I know many troops in the combat arms that joined to goto war, throw grenades and shoot at enemies with AKs and be the elite super-secret-ninja-JTF-sniper squirrel that they saw in Hollywood. Once they got into the job, it was nothing like that and they are now releasing. Always ask yourself 'Am I fine with doing the non-war, lowspeed, day-to-day tasks my trade is going to offer?' and if not, find a different trade.

Being a perspective IntO, you will imediately be shoved into a leadership role. You will have trained IntOps feeding you their Intelligence assessments and you report to your highers from there. You get directives pushed on down to you from higher as to what information needs to be collected and your IntOps direct patrols to gather this info or they extrapolate that info from the normal reports that are gathered in from patrols. A good real life analogy of this is you are immediately pt as the editor of a newspaper and your reporters are the IntOps. Might sound like a sweet carreer course and all, like many officer trades (on paper), but there are things to consider before throwing in your app. I am not an officer but I am sure that there are many threads of 'What it's like to be an officer vs NCM' on here. What I have gathered on most officer trades in the military with an NCM couterpart is that as the officer, you likely will be doing less of the hands on stuff and more of the managerial/paperwork/administrative side of the house.


----------



## SentryMAn

//Disclaimer, I've never been, worked as, nor had any experience with intelligence//

I have always thought of intelligence like a television show called "Elementary" where inference by way of using facts leads to a conclusion of sorts.  Then a lot like a show called "Criminal minds" where that inference is put into a workable set of objectives and pushed to the "end users".

Sorry if you don't know these shows and yes I understand they are "make believe".


----------



## OldSolduer

Intelligence is derived from facts - and there is an intelligence cycle as well.

Information is not intelligence. Intelligence is, like Ghost says, is what is likely to happen given the information and the time to analyze it and make it useful.


----------



## Webgear

GhostofJacK said:
			
		

> In no way is being an InO/IntOp the 'going out behind enemy lines and pulling the casette from the hidden voice recorder in the enemy's bunker' sort of deal. You will never even be embedded in a patrol and gather your Int first hand as you likely will always be in a room at a computer.



I would have to disagree with this statement. I have known several Int Ops that have been embedded on patrols/operations in both Kandahar and Kabul over the last 10 years.

It depends on what rotation you where on, how the Int Staffs were used within that rotation and how well the Int Ops were integrated into their attached unit or headquarters.

However in general most Int Ops will remain behind the wire in secure locations working on a computer for hours on end. 

I know several Squadron and Company Commanders that had requested Int Ops be presence at key leader engagements or other key events in order to collect that first hand information/intelligence.

It is my opinion that Int Ops and Int Os should have front line experience in every operation in order to build creditability with the combat arms types. Maybe that is a discussion for another thread.

Edit:

I agree with everything thing else that you have stated.


----------



## Spooks

Webgear said:
			
		

> I would have to disagree with this statement. I have known several Int Ops that have been embedded on patrols/operations in both Kandahar and Kabul over the last 10 years.
> 
> It depends on what rotation you where on, how the Int Staffs were used within that rotation and how well the Int Ops were integrated into their attached unit or headquarters.
> 
> However in general most Int Ops will remain behind the wire in secure locations working on a computer for hours on end.
> 
> I know several Squadron and Company Commanders that had requested Int Ops be presence at key leader engagements or other key events in order to collect that first hand information/intelligence.
> 
> It is my opinion that Int Ops and Int Os should have front line experience in every operation in order to build creditability with the combat arms types. Maybe that is a discussion for another thread.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> I agree with everything thing else that you have stated.



Okay, yes, I stand corrected on this. Int Ops do go out in patrols, occasionally, upon request. When I started writing that sentence, I was envisioning the Hollywood 'Bourne Indentity/Supremacy/etc' or how the CIA is depicted frequently - an IntO/Op just won't do that. They won't even be sneaking behind the lines during an Oka Crisis-like scenario. At the same time, in tours from 05-09 in the Gan, I know some IntOps that went outside the wire and some that didn't. I even know some TIOC members who are infantry and never left the wire for the whole tour. I do believe that most of the hands-on stuff (ie being embedded with a patrol) would be done by an IntOp while and IntO would be present for higher meetings like (hypothetically) ISAF and all the provincial leaders. 

And as I said, which I'll reiterate to future CF members reading this thread, going out of the wire is not the norm and reserved for special occasions/people. Before entering this job, you should be fine with what and IntO/Op does on a regular basis.


----------



## GnyHwy

Jack-44M said:
			
		

> Hey guys, I am currently finishing my second year at university (Major: Political Science Minor:Journalism) and and considering joining the C.F and specifically the intelligence officer trade. I was wondering if anyone could provide me with any advice on the best path towards this potential career are and the steps I can be currently taking to pursue it.
> 
> Cheers,



Having an IT/IM background will likely be helpful.  You will be managing databases and sharepoints that the troops will be looking to for int.  Some would say that we are poor at this and some of our databases would be considered information soup.  Figuring out ways to make our intelligence tools more efficient and effective would certainly be welcomed.


----------



## Loachman

SentryMAn said:
			
		

> I've never ... had any experience with intelligence



I've met a few dumb thuds in my time. I hope that you weren't one of them.


----------



## maestro67

Just a little update, not sure if anyone cares.

CFRC here in Calgary told me they had 1 INT position open up in the past 12 month's I believe. I believe he said they had over 40 people (internal) apply for it.


----------



## DAA

maestro67 said:
			
		

> CFRC here in Calgary told me they had 1 INT position open up in the past 12 month's I believe. I believe he said they had over 40 people (internal) apply for it.



Not sure what the "internal" (ie; OT/CT) numbers are but off the street is ZERO.


----------



## Aldaren

Enter, stage right, an IntOp with some general QnA. Ghost is generally spot on with info. If there are specific questions not covered under this blanket, by all means ask. 

Q: I want to be an intel guy!
A: Intel is an American term. Int as a trade has two main paths: officer (“IntO”) and NCM (“IntOp”, Intelligence Operator). Both have their own quirks. Those choosing the officer path generally do not need a background in any other military trade, as they spend about 4 years (give or take) learning how to play military. NCM (reg) is OT or CT only, as there needs to be some level of experience. No joining off the street (reserves is different, however I have no experience with that).

Q: Do I have to be combat arms first?
A: No, but it does help. Individuals who join the trade from a non Combat Arms trade sometimes struggle a little more with doctrine, having not really delved deep into the basics of how section/platoon/company/combat team attacks work. Again, this isn’t a 100% struggle for non combat arms folk, as there are plenty of combat arms transferees who struggle with it as well. Experience helps.

Q: Do you do James Bond/Jason Bourne stuff?
A: No.

Q:  Do you do domestic operations?
A: Loaded question. Yes, Int pers deploy to domestic operations (fires, floods, Olympics, political summits), however CAF Int pers are NOT ALLOWED by law to collect information on Canadian citizens. That role falls to CSIS (for national security threats) and the RCMP (for criminal threats)

Q: What specialties can Int pers pursue?
A: HUMINT (for which any CAF member can undergo selection), Counter Int (CI, again, selection), Interrogator (selection), Imagery Analysis, Electronic Warfare Analyst. Most of these can be done by both NCM and Officer. These are not handed out willy nilly, again most is selection or merit based.

Q: Do Int guys go outside the wire?
A: Yes. Again, this is where having a preference for combat arms applies. A former infantryman is more likely to conduct a foot patrol than the former cook.

Q: What are the hours?
A: In garrison, the usual 0730-1600. In the field, expect 12-20 hour days in a mod tent behind a toughbook.

Q: What are the general Int jobs? Do I get to pick and choose?
A: The new Int was has effectively gotten rid of old job titles such as “logger” and “plotter” in favour of maintaining Collator and Analyst. Collators receive information from a variety of sources and agencies, save it in hard and/or soft copy and ensure that the Analysts receive pertinent info. Analysts take said information and use it to build a clear (as much as possible) picture of what is happening and what may happen next (based on fact, doctrine, and patterns). That’s as specific as I’ll give here. As for “pick and choose”, as much as I’d love to say yes, its no. Your CoC will assign you to a job based on your personal ability. Some people are really good at collating. Some are really good at Analysis. Some of the aforementioned skills either can’t be taught or the teaching doesn’t stick. 

Q: Do IntOps have to do PLQ? Which one?
A: Yes, PLQ Land (or whatever the new name for it is) regardless of your element. Sorry Air Force, expect to get dirty.

Q: Non Int branch people do Int things right?
A: To a degree yes. TIO trained personnel operate at the battalion level in support of the Int staff there. 

Q: How many IntO/IntOp positions are open now?
A: I don’t know. I’m not a recruiter.

Q: Do I need a degree? In what?
A: To be an officer, yes. And honestly it doesn’t hurt for NCMs either. The ability to write in a clear and concise manner, and the ability to speak with confidence to people many ranks higher than you are a must. Corporals routinely brief Colonels and Generals (based on where you are). Confidence in your skills and accuracy of your assessments mean credibility. Credibility means that the guy with many bars on his chest listens to the Corporal and can trust that the info/int presented is as accurate as possible. What kind of degree? Politics, History, International Relations. Degrees that help in providing insight into current events. 

Q: Are Int guys all SOF? Do you get SOF/Spec pay? What colour is your beret?
A: I was actually asked this once. No, not all Int pers are SOF, no there is no fancy SOF or Spec pay. Unless you are posted to one of the CANSOF units, your beret is your element and your pay is normal. In a SOF unit, yes you change your beret and get supporter pay (unless you’re an operator)

Q: I have a criminal record.
A: Find another trade. If there is anything in your personal or family history connected to illegal activity or untrustworthyness, you will likely not get your security clearance and will end up being a waste of uniform.


----------



## Journeyman

Aldaren said:
			
		

> Q: Do Int guys go outside the wire?
> A: Yes. Again, this is where having a preference for combat arms applies. A former infantryman is more likely to conduct a foot patrol than the former cook.


Let's see.....50-odd folks -- take "odd" as you will -- sitting in an ASIC for 6 months.  How many went on a patrol?  Note: "went on" as opposed to "conducted."  

Discounting the HUMINTers I've worked with, most of whom were not Int Ops, during my 10 months in Afghanistan I know of only 1 x Int Op who accompanied a patrol, and she went because of the knowledge she had, not because she was a "former infantryman and/or cook" -- the people requiring her presence didn't bother checking her MPRR.  Not calling "BS" on your post, I just don't want any hopes being unduly raised.



Oh damn, another Recruiting thread  :facepalm:


----------



## Aldaren

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Let's see.....50-odd folks -- take "odd" as you will -- sitting in an ASIC for 6 months.  How many went on a patrol?  Note: "went on" as opposed to "conducted."
> 
> Discounting the HUMINTers I've worked with, most of whom were not Int Ops, during my 10 months in Afghanistan I know of only 1 x Int Op who accompanied a patrol, and she went because of the knowledge she had, not because she was a "former infantryman and/or cook" -- the people requiring her presence didn't bother checking her MPRR.  Not calling "BS" on your post, I just don't want any hopes being unduly raised.



No it's a fair comment. Obviously Int going on a foot patrol wouldn't be an all the time thing, it was more alluding to "yes, you have to be prepared to conduct one if asked".


----------



## The_Dictat

Aldaren said:
			
		

> No it's a fair comment. Obviously Int going on a foot patrol wouldn't be an all the time thing, it was more alluding to "yes, you have to be prepared to conduct one if asked".



I have a few of my Int Op colleagues who have been involved in firefights on several occasions. So yes, be prepared to.


----------



## George Wallace

Reference the INT OP going out on patrols, especially Fighting Patrols, let's simplify it for the noobs.  If your unit has one mechanic to fix the LAVs, that one mechanic is not likely to be sent out on patrols where (s)he may be seriously injured or killed.  That would make the unit combat ineffective as they would find themselves in a position where all their vehicles were grounded and they could not conduct further patrolling.  A little common sense (which we all know is not that common) goes a long way.


----------



## Franko

The_Dictat said:
			
		

> I have a few of my Int Op colleagues who have been involved in firefights on several occasions. So yes, be prepared to.



I can tell you that there was absolutely no Int ops outside of KAF for TF3-08 with exception of one who was brought into the FOBs at the demands of the BG and much to the protests of the ASIC. For OP Athena/ Archer roto 4/0 no Int Ops left Jullian or KAF at all, nor accompanied any of the convoys or presence patrols in Kandahar, Kabul, Zabol or Ghazni provinces. They didn't even forward deploy to the FOB to link in and get any info.

For TF3-08, our dude did not get into any firefights, and went on one op....as a passenger in a LAVIII once....for one day, much to the protests of his leadership. They basically had a hissy-fit and balked at the idea.

 It was the same for TF1-08 as I knew the Int op in MSG. It was the same protests by her leadership as well and she did not leave the confines of the wire.

If that was the way it was for two tours, I'm sure it was the prevailing pattern for other tours as well, unless someone grew a backbone and got them out actually gathering in the field with the troops, which I highly doubt. Forward deployed troops are the primary collectors of Int. An Int ops job is to gather it all and figure out WTF is going on....not get into a fire fight nor go on patrols. A desk and a computer are their tools.

HUMINT are a different thing altogether, please don't get the two mixed up.

Regards


----------



## Journeyman

I think it's a typo.  I'm sure he meant to say....





			
				The_Dictat said:
			
		

> I have a few of my Int Op colleagues who  *claimed to* have been involved in firefights on several occasions. So yes, be prepared to.



Unless he was talking paintball......


----------



## OldSolduer

Here's my take:

If an Int Op has a specific task and is required to go on patrol that's fine. The Patrol Comd and 2 I/C can deal with that by assigning two patrollers to babysit the Int Op - chances are he or she will need some coaching and practice.

If the Int Op wants to go on patrol for craps and giggles - no. 

I never liked the idea of clerks, mechanics, cooks etc being encouraged to go on patrol in Croatia or Bosnia. This idea never came from the troops - it came out of BGHQ where the Good Idea Fairy had taken root.


----------



## medicineman

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I think it's a typo.  I'm sure he meant to say....
> Unless he was talking paintball......



Or they were partaking from one of the big screens in the TOC?

MM


----------



## George Wallace

medicineman said:
			
		

> Or they were partaking from one of the big screens in the TOC?
> 
> MM




Some of those screens are great for HD movies after hours.


----------



## Aldaren

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Some of those screens are great for HD movies after hours.



Sometimes it's hard to tell what's predator feed and what's Call of Duty...  >


----------



## The_Dictat

Guys, I never said that they where on patrol... They've been hit by IEDs during their road moves/convoys and got injured. Some have exchanged fire with the enemy. So don't generalize that Int Ops don't get out. Heck, a colleague of mine was even on Op Medusa, doing Intreps behind a mud wall... For myself, my driver brought us into a minefield during my tour in Bosnia...thankfully we were able to get ourselves out safely.

As for the Int Officers decision not to send out their guys, well no comment.

I do agree that Int personnel are not supposed to go outside the wire as they have a valuable work to do inside HQs. However, sometimes being on the ground to see by their selves what is going on is useful and time saving. Would they need babysitting? Obviously.


----------



## whisper

Hello all! First post.

I am a 24 year-old Master of Arts Graduate in Political Science, and I need a job. At least, the job-hunt was the reason I found myself back on the FORCES Browse Jobs tab. I have looked into the CF before, but that was mid-undergrad and - at the time -  a friend informed me that hiring was frozen across the board. I had a job at the time, and no intention of moving away, so I let it drop and went on to do a Master's degree.

But here I am with training, experience, and skill in reading complex documents, distilling info from multiple sources, writing simpler analyses, and presenting them to people verbally/in written form. I understand these are valuable skills across the board.

So, I'm interested in a few trades specifically - places where I might get to deploy this skill-set. INT Officer is incredibly appealing, and if I could join for that Trade tomorrow I would _seriously _consider it.

That said, forum-posts seem to the the only insider info on feasibility of being hired DEO into this Trade - and they aren't positive or recent (http://forums.air-force.ca/forums/threads/77865.25). I'm trying to get some research done before visiting a Recruiter. Any thoughts on the trade generally, DEO entrance into it/suggested alternative forms of entrance, wait-times, etc. would be great! Any thoughts on appropriate alternative trades would be a good start for me too (I am tentatively looking at Signals Officer as well at the moment). Thanks in advance!



*Aside*: I am not afraid of exercise or personal fitness, I spent three years rowing in highschool and quit the mornings so I could party. I'm done with that crap at this point, and miss the discipline - the freedom of not having a choice and just _f**ing doing it_ because expectations demand it. I understand that self-motivation will be required, but think basic could kick-start that. My interest in INT Officer comes from the nature of the work, not apprehension of being dumped into an extremely physical lifestyle.


----------



## mariomike

Some here.

"I want to be Int" Mega-thread  
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/12858.225


----------



## whisper

Thanks - I just found it myself a few moments ago - starting seeing all the "I'm applying tell me everything" threads and felt guilty.
Cheers!

Edit: It appears that I was moved here. Thanks Mods! It seems like I will just have to go to the source and visit a recruiter.


----------



## d_edwards

Aldaren said:
			
		

> Sometimes it's hard to tell what's predator feed and what's Call of Duty...  >



 :rofl:


----------



## George Wallace

INT is not hiring DEO.  At the moment, it next to impossible for trained INT O's to CT from the PRes to the Reg Force; and they would be chosen before someone off the street.  This would make the suggestion to join the Reserves and becoming an INT Op or INT O a less than encouraging route to take, but still an option.  You may want to weigh the Pros and Cons.

No matter whether or not you go officer or NCM, you will have to do Basic.  This may tie up a good portion of your first year to two years in the Reserves, depending on how lucky you are at getting onto a BMQ and BMQ (L).  In the Regular Force, you will go to BFC St Jean for your Basic.  If you join as an officer, you will then have to go off to CFB Gagetown for CAP (DP1).  It will be a year to two years before you even see the doors of a QL5A INT Op (NCM) or BIOC (officer) course.

I have had several Masters grads working for me as INT Ops in a Reserve unit.  The NCM route for a person right off the street takes approx two years before they are Trained as an INT Op.  The officer route is a long and drawn out route to take, even as a Reservist.  Compounding it all is that there are not that many openings at the moment for positions on a BIOC, which will run up to eight months of training, and may consequently take a Reservist over three years to become trained and employable.  In the last year, openings for Snr NCO and officer positions on career courses have been extremely rare for Reservists, further prolonging the time it may take to become employable.   

If you join the Regular Force, you likely would have to join in another Trade (as you suggested Signals Officer) and apply for a VOT a few years down the road, after you have been fully trained in that Trade.  Once again, you would have to spend another year on the BIOC, before becoming employable as an INT O.

No matter which route you should decide to take, it will be many years before you become employable as an INT O.


----------



## whisper

Thanks George, this kind of info is exactly what I wanted to get a handle on before visiting a recruiter. It helps me go in knowing what questions I want to ask. Very helpful.
Cheers.


----------



## hockey1234

Hello, 

I am currently in first-year studying for a Bachelor of Public Affairs and Policy Management, and was wondering if this is an acceptable degree to be entered into ROTP as an Intelligence Officer? The specializations that I can take that seem the most related would be International Studies or Public Policy and Administration. In short:
1) Am I in the right program to become an Intelligence Officer?
2) If so, which specialization would be most beneficial?
3) Can I apply for the Reserves as an Intelligence Officer and then switch into ROTP, say two years from now? 

Thank you for taking the time to answer!


----------



## DAA

hockey1234 said:
			
		

> I am currently in first-year studying for a Bachelor of Public Affairs and Policy Management, and was wondering if this is an acceptable degree to be entered into ROTP as an Intelligence Officer? The specializations that I can take that seem the most related would be International Studies or Public Policy and Administration. In short:
> 1) Am I in the right program to become an Intelligence Officer?
> 2) If so, which specialization would be most beneficial?
> 3) Can I apply for the Reserves as an Intelligence Officer and then switch into ROTP, say two years from now?



Current academic programs recognized for ROTP Int O are:

Ideal

Bachelor of Arts in:Conflict Studies, International Studies, Military and Strategic Studies, Political Science, Global Studies or Anthropology 

Acceptable

Bachelor of Arts in: Economics, English, History, Journalism, Geography, Psychology or Theology. 
Bachelor of Science in: Geography, Geomatic Imagery/Science, or Information Technology Systems
Bachelor of Engineering (any)

As far as applying to the Reserves as an Int O, the academic requirements for both RESO and DEO are slight different than above:

Bachelor of Arts in: Conflict Studies, International Studies, Global Studies, Political Studies, Military and Strategic Studies, History, Geography, or Social Sciences (with a major in Politics or Economics)
Bachelor of Engineering (any)
Bachelor of Science (any)

So you could join the Reserves and then apply for ROTP provided you have not already obtained the requisite undergrad degree required under the ROTP program.


----------



## hockey1234

DAA said:
			
		

> Current academic programs recognized for ROTP Int O are:
> Ideal
> 
> Bachelor of *Arts* in:International Studies, Political Science, Global Studies
> 
> As far as applying to the Reserves as an Int O, the academic requirements for both RESO and DEO are slight different than above:
> 
> Bachelor of Arts in: International Studies, Global Studies, Political Studies, or Social Sciences (with a major in Politics or Economics)
> 
> So you could join the Reserves and then apply for ROTP provided you have not already obtained the requisite undergrad degree required under the ROTP program.



I appreciate the thorough response!
Just to clarify, is a Bachelor of Arts the only one accepted or could I remain in my Bachelor of Public Affairs and Policy Management program provided that I major in International Studies? I was accepted into the programs that I just quoted. Also, would you recommend applying straight to ROTP and avoid Reserves if I am nearly certain that this is a career I would like to pursue? 

Thanks again,  

**Note: I only quoted excerpts from DAA's post


----------



## DAA

hockey1234 said:
			
		

> I appreciate the thorough response!
> Just to clarify, is a Bachelor of Arts the only one accepted or could I remain in my Bachelor of Public Affairs and Policy Management program provided that I major in International Studies? I was accepted into the programs that I just quoted. Also, would you recommend applying straight to ROTP and avoid Reserves if I am nearly certain that this is a career I would like to pursue?



Your best option, would be to apply for ROTP NOW before the deadline and see just what comes of it.  If not selected for ROTP, you could always convert your application over to the Reserves or wait until you complete your studies.

As far as the required undergrad degree, I would suggest printing off all the information regarding the academic program that you plan on taking and visit your local CFRC to obtain are more thorough review, just to ensure that it is an "acceptable" program of study for the occupation that you wish to pursue.

Good luck!


----------



## hockey1234

DAA said:
			
		

> Your best option, would be to apply for ROTP NOW before the deadline and see just what comes of it.  If not selected for ROTP, you could always convert your application over to the Reserves or wait until you complete your studies.
> 
> As far as the required undergrad degree, I would suggest printing off all the information regarding the academic program that you plan on taking and visit your local CFRC to obtain are more thorough review, just to ensure that it is an "acceptable" program of study for the occupation that you wish to pursue.
> 
> Good luck!



Thank you very much DAA, I really appreciate all your helpful advice!


----------



## juliandam26

Hi, I'm new in this forum, and I am about to take my CFAT, and hopefully everything will go as expected.

I have a question regarding what kind of training and how long it is for intelligence officers. Also, I would like to kindly request any kind of information regarding that specific trade. I have bee looking into the forum but I haven't been able to find much information (or probably I don't know where to look). I will really appreciate any input regarding this trade.

Thanks


----------



## mariomike

Juliandam26 said:
			
		

> I have a question regarding what kind of training and how long it is for intelligence officers. Also, I would like to kindly request any kind of information regarding that specific trade.



 "I want to be Int" Mega-thread  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/12858.275


----------



## George Wallace

Juliandam26 said:
			
		

> I have a question regarding what kind of training and how long it is for intelligence officers. Also, I would like to kindly request any kind of information regarding that specific trade.





As marionike pointed out there is lots of information on this site that you can read.  




			
				Juliandam26 said:
			
		

> I have bee looking into the forum but I haven't been able to find much information (or probably I don't know where to look). I will really appreciate any input regarding this trade.



You just failed one of the attributes required of someone aspiring for a career in the intelligence field.

Enjoy your reading.


----------



## cryco

quote< You just failed one of the attributes required of someone aspiring for a career in the intelligence field. >  <- that's funny because it's true.


----------



## juliandam26

Yeah, I can see that now. Maybe I should start considering another trade.

Thanks anyways.


----------



## Thinkingofenlisting

I have a question about the qualifications for becoming an intelligence Officer.

I have an honours degree in Sociology and a Master's degree in criminology. I have seen the university degrees required for this job and neither of the two I hold match. It's unfortunate because the skill set I have is identical to what is required as an intelligence Officer and it would be a dream job for me. Is there any way to have this problem addressed? For example I believe I have heard of having a department in Ottawa assessing situations like this on a case by case basis (I could be wrong though). 

Any information would be a huge help. Thanks in advance.


----------



## cryco

What did the recruiter tell you? The only one than can give you an answer to that is a recruiter. 
With those degrees, it is definitely worth your time to go ask in person.


----------



## Thinkingofenlisting

The recruiter told me I should look at intelligence operator first and was pretty by the book in terms of the qualifications. I had spoken to a recruiter in the past and I believe that is where I got the info about having the situation assessed by a department in Ottawa, that was a while ago though and it was vague at best. I just find it hard to believe that this is e end an issue, I understand policy and procedure has to be followed but frustrating nonetheless.


----------



## George Wallace

Thinkingofenlisting said:
			
		

> I have a question about the qualifications for becoming an intelligence Officer.
> 
> I have an honours degree in Sociology and a Master's degree in criminology. I have seen the university degrees required for this job and neither of the two I hold match. It's unfortunate because the skill set I have is identical to what is required as an intelligence Officer and it would be a dream job for me. Is there any way to have this problem addressed? For example I believe I have heard of having a department in Ottawa assessing situations like this on a case by case basis (I could be wrong though).
> 
> Any information would be a huge help. Thanks in advance.



You want to become an Intelligence officer, yet you have failed on one of the most important criteria of what would make you a desirable candidate to become an intelligence operator.  



			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> Some here.
> 
> "I want to be Int" Mega-thread
> http://army.ca/forums/threads/12858.200



Thanks mariomike.  Although not an INT OP, you show more skills than many who are asking questions here.


----------



## Thinkingofenlisting

thanks Georgey Ol Boy tremendous help


----------



## Messorius

What degrees actually match? Forces.ca mentions 'relevant' degrees, but I was asked if I wanted to go the officer route with a BFA.


----------



## Good2Golf

Messorius said:
			
		

> What degrees actually match? Forces.ca mentions 'relevant' degrees, but I was asked if I wanted to go the officer route with a BFA.



Did you tell them that you understood that officers generally use a pistol and not a rifle, thus the BFA wouldn't be of much use during training?


----------



## Messorius

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Did you tell them that you understood that officers generally use a pistol and not a rifle, thus the BFA wouldn't be of much use during training?



 No, but I'm remembering that for later. ;D


----------



## Steve_m

I'm a university student and working toward a degree in IT(Information technology).  I was thinking over my choices of what i would want to do in the military and narrowed it down to armour, infantry, or intelligence officer through direct entry.  I know i made a post about infantry officer earlier to ask if my degree was fine but wanted to know if my degree would make me eligible to become an armour or intelligence officer as well. Any help would be great just want to make sure i have options if i decide to change my mind about infantry and want to do something else that I'm interested in.


----------



## mariomike

Steve_m said:
			
		

> Any help would be great just want to make sure i have options if i decide to change my mind about infantry and want to do something else that I'm interested in.



12 pages of Intelligence Officer ( and Operator ) questions and answers:

"I want to be Int" Mega-thread  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/12858.200


----------



## MShep

Good day,
I would like to join the CAF as an intelligence officer. However that trade is not currently open to DEO applicants. I will be graduating with a degree in international studies this spring and I don't want to spend a few years in RMC. So in the long run what trade would prepare me best to be intO? I heard it's very competetive to get in and I have 0 relevant experience beyond my degree.

Thank you


----------



## RedcapCrusader

You could start out as a Reserve Int Operator Or Officer if there is a Reserve Int Company in your area.

Otherwise, I'd look into Communications Research Operator. Some of the stuff Comms Rsch Ops do is even more secret squirrel than Int and CANSOFCOM. 

Otherwise, there's not much... Sonar Operator, Naval Communicator?  Those aren't officer occupations though.


Fair warning however, it's not easy to change your trade/occupation, the process is very lengthy, and it's not guaranteed to be approved either. I would suggest looking into other occupations that interest you, ones you could see yourself doing for a long period of time and select one of those... Or just wait it out until IntO becomes available to DEO applicants, and probably your least favourite choice, enter under ROTP as IntO (they're hiring), and get another degree.


----------



## George Wallace

MShep said:
			
		

> Good day,
> I would like to join the CAF as an intelligence officer. However that trade is not currently open to DEO applicants. I will be graduating with a degree in international studies this spring and I don't want to spend a few years in RMC. So in the long run what trade would prepare me best to be intO? I heard it's very competetive to get in and I have 0 relevant experience beyond my degree.
> 
> Thank you




One of the most important skills one needs to become an Intelligence officer or Intelligence Operator, is the skill to surf the internet and research.  That would mean you should enhance your Google Fu.

Here is a source you may read here on this site:

https://army.ca/forums/threads/12858/post-1029950.html#msg1029950

A good method of doing a Component Transfer to INT O is to join as a Combat Arms officer and gain knowledge and experience in ORBATS of friendly and 'enemy' organizations and their SOPs and equipment.  The knowledge you will learn as a Combat Arms officer (Army, Navy or Air Force (mostly Army)) will put you in a good position to switch later.


----------



## MShep

Thanks for your insight guys! Guess there's just a lot of opportunities available for me after school and I'll have to follow my gut feeling. A good problem to have.


----------



## k25

I'm wondering if anyone can tell me how a reserve unit operates. More specifically, do each branch of the Canadian forces (Army, Navy and AF) work together? Or are the units specific to each branch?

I am in school right now and want to finish my degree while working for the reserves. I originally wanted to apply to the Air Force as an Intel Officer, but the closest AF base to me is hours away in Borden, which would prove difficult being in school. There is an Army reserve unit walking distance to where I live. I know everything depends on the demand for your trade, and job openings, but if I did apply to the Air Force, would I be able to work at the army unit nearer to me?


----------



## brihard

k25 said:
			
		

> I'm wondering if anyone can tell me how a reserve unit operates. More specifically, do each branch of the Canadian forces (Army, Navy and AF) work together? Or are the units specific to each branch?
> 
> I am in school right now and want to finish my degree while working for the reserves. I originally wanted to apply to the Air Force as an Intel Officer, but the closest AF base to me is hours away in Borden, which would prove difficult being in school. There is an Army reserve unit walking distance to where I live. I know everything depends on the demand for your trade, and job openings, but if I did apply to the Air Force, would I be able to work at the army unit nearer to me?



Keeping it short and simple, basically when you join an army reserve unit, you need to be one of the trades that unit employs. Most units are majority one trade- infantry, artillery, engineers, armour, etc- but some units will have a variety of different trades, such as the service battalions, communications units, etc. Every unit will employ maybe a couple of clerks, maybe a supply tech or two in addition to their primary trade. But by and large, if you're joining say an infantry unit, expect to be joining and working as infantry. You won't get much if any experience working with the other elements, but you'll sometimes get experience working with other trades within your element- eg an infantry unit will sometimes work with the engineers, medics, artillery, armour, etc.

Which unit is closest to you? That would make it easier to give a more precise answer.


----------



## k25

Thanks for the help everyone.



> Which unit is closest to you? That would make it easier to give a more precise answer.



I live right downtown in Toronto. The closest reserve unit to me is 32 Signal Regiment: Fort York - it's an armoury so I am guessing I would not be able to work there given as I am applying to be intelligence. I know there are a few more in the city, though.


----------



## mariomike

k25 said:
			
		

> I live right downtown in Toronto. The closest reserve unit to me is 32 Signal Regiment: Fort York - it's an armoury so I am guessing I would not be able to work there given as I am applying to be intelligence.



2 Intelligence Company
http://www.army-armee.forces.gc.ca/en/2-intelligence-company/index.page
1 Yukon Lane
Toronto, ON  
( near Downsview Station )


----------



## LightFighter

k25 said:
			
		

> Thanks for the help everyone.
> 
> I live right downtown in Toronto. The closest reserve unit to me is 32 Signal Regiment: Fort York - it's an armoury so I am guessing I would not be able to work there given as I am applying to be intelligence. I know there are a few more in the city, though.



The Royal Regiment of Canada(Infantry) and Queen's York Rangers ("Armour" Recce) are also located at Fort York Armoury. North Toronto/Downsview area is where Denison Armoury is located, and they have an Intelligence Company there.


----------



## MackenzieJRT

So I'm enlisting as an Intelligence operator but just have some questions. 

Can anyone tell me how long you have to be in until you can branch out into one of the advanced specializations (such as HUMINT and counter intelligence)? 

What are the day to day duties of an intelligence operator on a "normal day"?

And I understand it's difficult but I am hoping to try for SOF selection later on down the road, because Intel is a non combat trade will I be able to try out for the role of "assaulter" or will I be limited to that of a support trade?

Finally, are courses such as recce and other courses (maybe even jump school?) available to Intel operators? Or are those specifically set aside for combat arms such as infantry?


----------



## MackenzieJRT

Do Intel operators have the ability to, later on down the road,  try out for the role of CSOR assaulter? Or is that only reserved for the combat arms? Would Intel operators be restricted to sof support staff?

Thankyou


----------



## MackenzieJRT

I'm enlisting as an Intelligence operator. I'm wondering if, as an Intel operator, I would have the opportunity and ability to take courses such as recce, advanced small arms, driver and other combat related courses. I ask because I hope to pursue HUMINT where these would be slightly more applicable.


----------



## MackenzieJRT

I'm enlisting as an Intelligence operator. I am wondering how long one is required to be an Intel operator before branching out into a more specialized career. I have my eye set on JTFX and any other tactical HUMINT roles. On another note, I do hope to apply to CSOR down the road and am wondering if it's possible to go from Intel operator to CSOR assaulter? Or would I be confined to CSOR support staff?

Thankyou for any info on this trade, any info on it would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## MackenzieJRT

I have enlisted as an Intelligence operator and am trying to dog up as much info as I can about the specialized jobs within. My main question is how would one go about  applying for the advanced jobs such as JTFX? In the official canadian forces recruiting video it says briefly that when you attend the canadian firces school of militaty Intel "that is where you can choose a career tk specialize in, this can be tactical Intel gathering....".

Any info would be immensely helpful.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Holy (&#38;#38;#()#@&@ batman...calm down.  You aren't even in the CAF yet, you registered on the site yesterday and you have a handful of posts scattered all over asking about all the high speed/low drag stuff.

What you NEED to be thinking about first is getting accepted.  Then passing BMQ.  Are you in shape for training?  Are you getting all your 'life' ducks in a row so you can focus on your training _IF_ you get accepted?


You are worrying about black-belt techniques and you haven't even tested for yellow yet.  Start thinking about BMQ, not CSOR.  At this point, you are an aspiring applicant.  Do not expect to get any info on SOF/CSOR/specialized Int Op training or employment that you can't get yourself thru open source stuff i.e. from a google search.  

Despite what you might think when you read this post, the info in my post is immensely helpful.   :2c:


----------



## Loachman

Welcome to Army.ca, MackenzieJRT.

As Eye In The Sky said, stop spurting all over the Site. And follow his other advice as well. It is sound.

Int Ops are expected to be able to research subjects. There is much discussion about this here already. Please take the time to explore older threads on this Site and try the Search Function. This saves others' valuable time repeating earlier answers, saves DS the effort of merging threads of repetitive questions and answers, saves new people the effort of wading through them, and rewards you by providing answers to other questions before you even think of them.

And it's "Int" and not "Intel". This is Canada, not the US.

Lastly, you might not want to use your real name.


----------



## LightFighter

MackenzieJRT said:
			
		

> Do Intel operators have the ability to, later on down the road,  try out for the role of CSOR assaulter? Or is that only reserved for the combat arms? Would Intel operators be restricted to sof support staff?




Any trade can try out to be a SF Operator for CSOR



			
				MackenzieJRT said:
			
		

> I'm enlisting as an Intelligence operator. I'm wondering if, as an Intel operator, I would have the opportunity and ability to take courses such as recce, advanced small arms, driver and other combat related courses. I ask because I hope to pursue HUMINT where these would be slightly more applicable.



Can Int Ops take a driver wheel course, yes
Can Int Ops try out for HUMINT, yes
Can a Int Op be loaded onto Basic Para, yes 

Are Int Ops loaded onto Basic Recce, ASA, and other Infantry orientated courses, no.


----------



## George Wallace

Loachman said:
			
		

> Welcome to Army.ca, MackenzieJRT.
> 
> 
> 
> Int Ops are expected to be able to research subjects.



Exactly!

Please read this thread:  "I want to be Int" Mega-thread


This topic is now LOCKED

George
army.ca Staff


----------



## VKCornes

MackenzieJRT said:
			
		

> I'm enlisting as an Intelligence operator. I am wondering how long one is required to be an Intel operator before branching out into a more specialized career. I have my eye set on JTFX and any other tactical HUMINT roles. On another note, I do hope to apply to CSOR down the road and am wondering if it's possible to go from Intel operator to CSOR assaulter? Or would I be confined to CSOR support staff?
> 
> Thankyou for any info on this trade, any info on it would be greatly appreciated.



You need prior service before you become int ops.

You don't need to be an int op to be HUMINT qualified.

CSOR is open for everybody like everybody said.👌 

Be a weapons/ammo tech and be fit, join csor support )


----------



## Ostrozac

VKCornes said:
			
		

> You need prior service before you become int ops.



Not anymore. Intelligence Operator is now open to direct entry.

http://www.forces.ca/en/job/intelligenceoperator-9


----------



## brewski5000

I've searched the threads but haven't found an answer to my question. 

Do Air Force Int Os still have to do CAP/BMOQ-L? I've seen some hints / rumours that they might not have to, so I'm wondering if anyone knows for sure. A couple of people in other Int-related threads have said the trade is becoming a bit more element-specific. Thanks for your time.


----------



## Frankopolous

Hi new here, I'm currently on course at CFLRS as an Int-Op, I am wondering if anyone knows if Int-Op is considered a spec trade like MP being immediately ranked to Cpl after BMQ and before QL5 completion? I've searched the web and asked all of my instructors / duty staff but they see few Int-Ops so I can't get an answer from anyone. Thanks!


----------



## sarahsmom

Part of the reason MPs get their Cpl's right after basic is because they have to have Police foundations course (or whatever it's called these days). Some veh techs get their first hook or even their Cpl's on graduation too. It depends on your qualifications.

According to this link http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-pay/specialist-pay-reg-force-ncm-mosids.page Int Op does not get spec pay.


----------



## PuckChaser

Int does not start as automatic Corporal. You get to be a Pte like everyone else. The reason you rarely see Int Ops below Cpl, as most of the trade is remusters, so they are rank protected at Cpl.


----------



## George Wallace

Frankopolous said:
			
		

> Hi new here, I'm currently on course at CFLRS as an Int-Op, I am wondering if anyone knows if Int-Op is considered a spec trade like MP being immediately ranked to Cpl after BMQ and before QL5 completion? I've searched the web and asked all of my instructors / duty staff but they see few Int-Ops so I can't get an answer from anyone. Thanks!



Simple answer: "No."

After you complete your QL 5 you will be qualified Cpl, and promote-able should you have the "time in" (or you are deemed a prospect for an Advance Promotion).  As PuckChaser pointed out, most Int Ops on the QL 5 are coming into the Int Trade as Trained CAF members from other Trades and are already Cpl, or above; so that is why you will see many as Cpls before they complete the QL 5 Int Op Crse and are fully trained.  If you are an Int Op right off the street, with no previous military training, you are not going to be a Cpl until after you are fully trained having graduated a QL 5 Int Op Crse; not before.

No Spec Pay either.   [


----------



## Frankopolous

Thanks for the information, I asked 12 instructors and none of them had a clue about Int-Op.


----------



## hangin_around

Frankopolous said:
			
		

> Thanks for the information, I asked 12 instructors and none of them had a clue about Int-Op.



Hey, do you mind telling me a bit about your qualifications ? I know they hardly hire anyone off the street but I was told there's a good chance I could be offered Int Ops soon as well. I only have high school education and a year of university and didn't really have any Int Ops related qualifications at all. I was told I scored a very competitive score but that alone doesn't seem like enough considering only 10-15 people are offered that position off the street per year.

Any information you can give me about your experience would be appreciated.


----------



## Frankopolous

hangin_around said:
			
		

> Hey, do you mind telling me a bit about your qualifications ? I know they hardly hire anyone off the street but I was told there's a good chance I could be offered Int Ops soon as well. I only have high school education and a year of university and didn't really have any Int Ops related qualifications at all. I was told I scored a very competitive score but that alone doesn't seem like enough considering only 10-15 people are offered that position off the street per year.
> 
> Any information you can give me about your experience would be appreciated.



I have previous service in the naval reserve, I've worked closely with RCMP, OPP and CSIS, University of Toronto Criminal Psych / Criminal Justice certificates, Licensed private investigator, Level II security clearance prior to my application. 

I believe only 6 were hired for the 2016 year I could be wrong though just what my career counsellor told me back during my interview. Keep it as a choice just have a fallback option incase it doesn't go through. Cheers!


----------



## econ_kid

I recently wrote my CFAT and scored well-enough to be offered Pilot, though my initial application was for Int Officer--for disclosure I have an Economics degree. Int Officer was closed. Int Operator was closed. I was encouraged to go for Pilot or Logistics Officer (due to demand), but my eyesight is so poor that I thought it would have been a waste of time (I have a lazy-eye and -8.00 prescription), and the recruiter told me Logistics wouldn't align with my interests.

After a lengthy conversation with a different recruiter, I was convinced that going for Communicator Research Operator was a good choice--it was also a proposed path to increase my probability of becoming an Int Officer or Int Operator down the road.

I took it, but now I am second guessing my decision. I know this decision to go the NCM route was borne out of the fact that Int was closed, but, would it have been better for me to simply wait until Int opened up again? Or to try again in a few years from within the Military?

Thanks for your input guys.


----------



## PuckChaser

If you don't like windows, fresh air, or being social, you picked a great trade.  ;D


----------



## mkil

As someone who has been exactly where you are, I feel like I can chime in on this. 

I have a Master's degree, and I really wanted to be an officer when I was initially recruited. I was told that the officer trade I wanted was not available for DEO that year (which was kind of a lie... but I digress). Not being interested in any of the other officer routes that I was herded into, I decided to go the NCM route with hopes of getting a foot in the door and eventually moving into the officer trade I wanted. 

I can tell you, with zero hesitation, that it is extremely difficult to make the jump from NCM to officer - especially something as competitive as Int Officer. There are only two programs to make the leap and the one that you would be involved with (SCP) is even more competitive. You would be up against other NCM's across the country and competing for literally one spot (if any). While I cannot sit here and tell you I outright regret being an NCM, I can tell you not a day went by that I didn't still want to move on. I had to work my ass off, and jump through many MANY hoops in order to commission. If you are already feeling like it might have been a mistake, you need to be really honest with yourself about what you want. Your education does not matter when you are a private, and you will be treated as if you are a completely empty vessel, void of all intelligence and knowledge until you master your new trade. The fact that you are already feeling like this, tells me that you should put the brakes on this one, because once you are in - it is for the long haul. The only thing worse than waiting is settling. Trust me on that. 

Being a NCM is a valuable experience; however, if you will be miserable and thinking "I wish I had've waited" the whole time, it is not worth it.


----------



## krimynal

Going NCM prior to Officer might not be a bad choice as far as experience goes.  That way you will understand both side of the coin and the reality of both world.
It is 2 totally different world , but as stated above, if you already doubt the choice you made, don't continue tht route.  Call your recruiting center and tell them about your desire to go Officer even if the wait is longer.
It's better to wait 6 month to a year on something you really want than getting in on a job you will most likely regret and do it for 4-5 years and maybe even for the entire duration of your carreer.

Remember there is ABSOLUTELY no certainty that you will be able to commission once in the NCM world.  Would you do this for the next 25 years? if you doubt this , don't go with it.
If you tell yourself , this would be a great job , then keep the application and maybe one day you will be lucky and get to transfer Officer. 

Joining the army just to "get a foot in" is one of the worst decision ever.  Pick a trade you really want to do, and take the time it needs to go that route.


----------



## econ_kid

Thank you for the responses gentlemen, this is some valuable insight.

My desire to be mentally stimulated in whatever occupation is my number one priority; I don't care as much about the title or respect as long as I am consistently being challenged (solving difficult problems). I initially decided to pursue INT because it seemed like a path that I was eligible for, but also a path that would also satisfy my craving for stimulation. Communicator Research Operator was pitched to me as an occupation that would accomplish this--is this true? I mean, I love doing things on the computer like solving coding problems, writing scripts, working with encryption, etc; but I am finding it difficult to get a true sense of what 'a day in the life of ______' would truly entail. This goes for INT Officer and INT Operator as well.

If I get bored I will hate my life, and I get bored when I am not being challenged. Reading, writing, researching, learning about anything related to complex systems (from language and programming to geopolitics and finance) are things that challenge me. A concrete example I can offer is, just for a fun project, I wrote a genetic algorithm (using principles of biology and evolution) which aims to write a specified sentence in English, beginning with a random string of characters. However, my formal background is Economics and Finance, which is obviously totally unrelated to programming and biology. So, this example is a signal of the type of person I am--I will come up with stupid random challenges for myself just to keep my gears turning.

I guess the simplest question I can ask is.... Will I get bored?

*Edit:

I am also getting conflicting information about how easy it would be to switch. The recruiters here said that my education being in NCM will be a huge asset and I would move up quick; it would also enable me to apply for INT from WITHIN the Military a lot easier than trying to be a guy off the street. I am simply trying to increase my probability of getting into INT Officer or INT Operator while still being challenged with my chosen path. Will my decision to go NCM Communicator Research Operator increase the probability of getting into INT down the road, considering I would have experience and already be a member of the Forces?


----------



## krimynal

remember 1 thing , people at the recruiting center do have Quotas to fill .... which in the end , makes them a bit biased and might not be the total truth.
When I joined the reserve they told me it was the best thing to do and as soon as I wanted I couldnt switch to reg Force and work full time.  That it would take like 3 weeks for my file to be processed.
When I applied for a transfert , 6 months later I got an email saying it would take up to 7 years for me to transfer.  

That's my personnal story and YMMV but , at the end of the day , pick something you wouldn't mind doing 25 years straight in.  If it's INT , go INT. simple as that


----------



## Andraste

Good afternoon Econ-Kid,

I am certain that either occupation INT OP or Comm Research will keep you mentally challenged on a daily basis but in different ways.  INT OP is more related to intelligence gathering, researching and collating that information up the chain to populate the global CAF intelligence picture (bare bones description) whereas Communication Research is more akin to analyzing high frequency radio signals, managing secure computer nets and IT security.  If you have not already done so, I would check out the two occupations on the CAF Recruiting website:

http://www.forces.ca/en/job/communicatorresearchoperator-29
http://www.forces.ca/en/job/intelligenceoperator-9

WRT to Communication Research increasing your chances of transferring to INT OP down the road . . . what you are talking about is a Voluntary Occupation Transfer once you are in the CAF and that option will not be available to you for 48 months after you enroll.  The CAF needs to get it's pound of flesh out of you for training you in your first MOSID.  The program is competitive in that you compete with other CAF members and if selected, you will get your new MOSID.  Comm Research definitely has transferable skills which are akin to INT OP so it does provide a bit of a leg up for OT but that is just one part of the assessment process when the decision is rendered.  

Regarding INT O, if you decide to join as an NCM and spend some time getting experience you could apply for the Special Commissioning Program (SCP) once you are trained in your NCM MOSID. What this means is since you have a degree, you apply for commissioning to an officer occupation.  Again this is a competitive program and various factors come into play such as education (i.e., is your degree acceptable or ideal for the MOSID of choice), demonstrated leadership, performance in the CAF, Commanding Officer's recommdation 

If you truly feel INT OP or INT O is your chosen path then you could also just mark time until they open up again and apply.

Will you ever get bored?  Goodness, no job is 24 hours of excitement every day so yes, you can expect to get bored now and then.  Will you be challenged is probably a better question and yes, you will be challenged.

Good luck 

Andraste


----------



## Flyingismything

Hi,

I am currently a university student and am interested in joining as an Intelligence Operator. As I return to full time studies in mid-September, I wanted to know what is the best way for me to join for the summer (full time) and go on part time throughout the school year. I am looking into reserves and am unsure as to how much time I would actually be serving.

I will be contacting a recruiter soon but wanted to get a bit more direction prior to doing so.

Thank you!


----------



## Frankopolous

direct your INTOP questions here: http://army.ca/forums/threads/12858.200


----------



## Loachman

Please note that this is the "Ask a CAF Recruiter" forum. Nobody should be responding except for Recruiters, DS, and a very small number of other designated people.

I have removed one post, but left Frankopolous' post as it is helpful.

Expect this thread to be merged with the one at Frankopolous' link soon.


----------



## Flyingismything

Hi,

I am currently a university student and am interested in joining the army as an Intelligence Operator. As I return to full time studies in mid-September, I wanted to know what is the best way for me to join for the summer (full time) and go on part time throughout the school year. I am looking into reserves and am unsure as to how much time I would actually be serving and want to make the most out of my time this summer.

I will be contacting a recruiter soon but wanted to get a general idea prior to doing so.

Thank you!


----------



## mba2011

Flyingismything said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> I am currently a university student and am interested in joining the army as an Intelligence Operator. As I return to full time studies in mid-September, I wanted to know what is the best way for me to join for the summer (full time) and go on part time throughout the school year. I am looking into reserves and am unsure as to how much time I would actually be serving and want to make the most out of my time this summer.
> 
> I will be contacting a recruiter soon but wanted to get a general idea prior to doing so.
> 
> Thank you!



Flyingismything,

Reserves is the best way to work full time over the summer and part time through the school year. As far as I know, the only way to continue your studies and be reg force is to put a hold on university while you are undergoing training and then resume your studies on a part time, (1 or 2 courses in the evening type thing).

 If you joined the reserves asap, in terms of paid work, you would likely get a few weeks, possibly most of the summer. That said, that depends on the unit/space on course, which only a Unit Recruiter could really answer.

Cheers!


----------



## Loachman

Flyingismything said:
			
		

> I am currently a university student and am interested in joining the army as an Intelligence Operator. As I return to full time studies in mid-September, I wanted to know what is the best way for me to join for the summer (full time) and go on part time throughout the school year. I am looking into reserves and am unsure as to how much time I would actually be serving and want to make the most out of my time this summer.



Where are you? There may or may not be any Reserve Int positions wherever that is.

Look at the Component Transfer (CT) thread(s) regarding moving from Reserve Force to Regular Force as well.


----------



## Frankopolous

Anyone able to give me some quick basic info about CFSMI in Kingston? ie: living quarters, base itself. 

Im getting posted there next week as i finish my BMQ on Thursday; i've asked around at the school and everyone has been telling me it's nice, but im getting mixed feedback that it's going to be Green Sector all over again...just looking for a quick tid bit about it thanks.


----------



## mariomike

Frankopolous said:
			
		

> Anyone able to give me some quick basic info about CFSMI in Kingston? ie:  living quarters, base itself.



CFB Kingston - Posted In - Merged Thread  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/29166.175
8 pages.


----------



## kpar

I'm a 21-year-old female student who is currently studying to get a BSc in Earth and Space Science and I hope to join the CAF as an Intelligence Officer. From what I've heard and researched, employment opportunities for direct entry are slim in this field and a transfer is often recommended. Is that true? Also, I'm a shy and reserved person...would this be an impediment for this specific field? The major reason I'm interested in this field is because I'm very much invested and interested in world affairs, politics, geopolitical and economic relationships (pretty much any kind of research). It's a hobby more than anything. I also excel at report and essay writing. Is there anything I can do to improve my chances of getting hired (i.e. Masters? Certification?). Any word of advice or direction is greatly appreciated.


----------



## Andraste

Hello,

DEO is open for Intelligence Officer but the positions are limited so you could potentially be in a tight competition.  I note that your current degree program would be "acceptable" which means that those applicants for DEO with an "ideal" degree program would score a bit higher on Person-Job fit when decisions are rendered.  Now bear in mind this is not the only factor which determines an offers as your CFAT testing, other testing and interview works into the scoring equation.  So you still stand a chance.

WRT being shy and reserved well . . . an INT O will most definitely be in a position where she/he has to brief people (large and small audiences) and this could be briefing very senior people in the Command structure.  So if you are comfortable interacting with people in a dynamic situations this should not prove a problem.  However, if you are nervous interacting with people or shy about briefing large groups of people you might struggle.  The CAF in general is a very communal environment and while you don't require a Type A personality to survive, you do need a certain amount of comfort being around others.  All this say reserved is fine so long as you can interact and function in your job.

Cheers

Andraste


----------



## Loachman

There are threads on this Site wherein Int, DEO, personality, and many other pertinent topics have been discussed, kpar. If your research has not yet included those, I'd suggest that you explore them, and other existing threads. You'll likely find answers to questions that have not even occurred to you yet.


----------



## mariomike

Saw this discussion in Ask a CAF Recruiter. Adding to "I want to be Int" Mega-thread for reference,



			
				kpar said:
			
		

> http://milnet.ca/forums/threads/123082/post-1436120/topicseen.html#new
> I'm a 21-year-old female student who is currently studying to get a BSc in Earth and Space Science and I hope to join the CAF as an Intelligence Officer.





			
				Andraste said:
			
		

> WRT being shy and reserved well . . . an INT O will most definitely be in a position where she/he has to brief people (large and small audiences) and this could be briefing very senior people in the Command structure.


----------



## Castus

Frankopolous said:
			
		

> Anyone able to give me some quick basic info about CFSMI in Kingston? ie: living quarters, base itself.
> 
> Im getting posted there next week as i finish my BMQ on Thursday; i've asked around at the school and everyone has been telling me it's nice, but im getting mixed feedback that it's going to be Green Sector all over again...just looking for a quick tid bit about it thanks.



Speaking as someone who just finished course there, the accommodations are quite nice, one to a room.

As for the course itself - it's difficult. There are many things that, upon initially seeing them, you will think are nonsensical and silly. Trust me when I say that it all comes together at the end of the course and not to dump any information that you're given. Get close with your course mates, find out your strengths and weaknesses (everyone has them) and help each other out as much as you can. Group study is not only your friend, it is absolutely crucial. If we wouldn't have done group studying, I know there would have been many more training failures. You will have some long days and long nights. 

The course itself is rewarding, but be prepared to jump into it head first for 4 months, to sit through hours upon hours of power point slides and still be able to pull out the required info and put it to practical use. Luckily, I found that the course staff were phenomenally professional and if you require extra help and make it known, they will provide it.

PM me if you've got any more questions.


----------



## doc_graham

I'd like some clarification on training to become a part-time Int Officer. I live in Halifax and already work in Int Analyst for the federal government. I have a graduate degree in history with a specialization/numerous publications in international affairs related to the Middle East. While I understand that there will be a six-month stint in Kingston, can the basic training etc be done locally or do all reservists have to go to Quebec and NB? If so, how long is the NB training?

Thanks!


----------



## George Wallace

Sigh!

"I want to be Int" Mega-thread


----------



## doc_graham

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Sigh!
> 
> "I want to be Int" Mega-thread[/irl]




Very professional response, sir. Thank you for the great first impression.


----------



## Loachman

It does get a little frustrating when people register and immediately launch questions that have been asked and answered before without bothering to look around first. There is a ton of information here already, ripe for your reading, and only a couple of Recruiters who cannot know everything about every occupation and training programme, especially with much variation in the Reserve Force world, and they only have so much time each day.

Explore this Site. Start with the stickied threads in applicable sub-fora. In doing so, you will likely find answers to questions before they even occur to you. Consider this as preparatory training before the real training begins. Should you not find what you need after honest effort, post your question(s) in the applicable forum, and help will be provided by all sorts of people, none of whom are permitted to post responses in the "Ask a CAF Recruiter" forum.

And if you think that the previous response was unprofessional, wait until training starts. There will be much less patience shown to those not doing their homework or otherwise not meeting expectations.


----------



## doc_graham

You're right Loachman. I could have (and should have) done some digging in the site first. Thanks for the response.


----------



## GAP

The original question does not come across as an excited 14 year old wanting immediate info, but as a reasonable request by someone in a related field, but unfamiliar with the CF. 

Loachman is partially right, but forgets that this site to a newbie is cumberson. The layout is intuitive to someone with military jargon embedded, but to civvies not so much. 

 :2c:


----------



## Loachman

Yet many new members do have a look around and read stuff before posting.

Hennyway, QUESTIONS about JOINING THE RESERVES http://army.ca/forums/threads/16735.0.html is probably another thread worth skimming through.


----------



## mariomike

doc_graham said:
			
		

> I'd like some clarification on training to become a part-time Int Officer.



See also,

Reserve DEO questions,
https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3Aarmy.ca+DEO+Reserves&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=Nt9NV6Uqo4LxB-vOgfgF&gws_rd=ssl#q=site:army.ca+DEO+Reserve


----------



## LPike

doc_graham said:
			
		

> I'd like some clarification on training to become a part-time Int Officer. I live in Halifax and already work in Int Analyst for the federal government. I have a graduate degree in history with a specialization/numerous publications in international affairs related to the Middle East. While I understand that there will be a six-month stint in Kingston, can the basic training etc be done locally or do all reservists have to go to Quebec and NB? If so, how long is the NB training?
> 
> Thanks!



Hi Doc,

I'm a reserve INT NCM in Halifax. If you're going reserve, you'll be in 3 INT COY. If you want to touch base with the Recruiter there, PM me and I'll pass along their email. I have nothing but positive things to say about her, too.

Officers in my unit did BMQ (C) on weekends through the school year, and then moved onto BMOQ portions in the summer, at Aldershot, I believe (Don't quote me on that). The Basic can be done during the school year, and the BMOQ can be completed by the end of the summer.

Cheers.

Sent from my XT1563 using Tapatalk


----------



## pascalywood

I got a phone call last week, I was selected to go on the Int Op course and have to be in Kingston for August 24th. I'm very excited about this! Any hint for a future candidate?


----------



## LPike

pascalywood said:
			
		

> I got a phone call last week, I was selected to go on the Int Op course and have to be in Kingston for August 24th. I'm very excited about this! Any hint for a future candidate?


Can you confirm this is the INT OP QL5?

I'm waiting to be loaded on one.

Sent from my XT1563 using Tapatalk


----------



## pascalywood

That would be QL3 I guess, this is the basic int course. I'm to report in for August 24th but I don't know when the actual course will take place.


----------



## chenzo

pascalywood said:
			
		

> That would be QL3 I guess, this is the basic int course. I'm to report in for August 24th but I don't know when the actual course will take place.



So are you reserve then?


----------



## pascalywood

chenzo said:
			
		

> So are you reserve then?



No, Reg force. I'm not familiar with the support trade courses but thats the 3 months and a half course.


----------



## j-rex

LPike said:
			
		

> Can you confirm this is the INT OP QL5?
> 
> I'm waiting to be loaded on one.
> 
> Sent from my XT1563 using Tapatalk


I'm waiting to be loaded onto the Int Op QL5 as well. I have heard nothing.

Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk


----------



## LPike

pascalywood said:
			
		

> That would be QL3 I guess, this is the basic int course. I'm to report in for August 24th but I don't know when the actual course will take place.


There's no INT OP QL3.

Sent from my XT1563 using Tapatalk


----------



## LPike

J-Rex said:
			
		

> I'm waiting to be loaded onto the Int Op QL5 as well. I have heard nothing.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk


Good to know I'm not the only one. Are you reg or Res?

Sent from my XT1563 using Tapatalk


----------



## j-rex

LPike said:
			
		

> Good to know I'm not the only one. Are you reg or Res?
> 
> Sent from my XT1563 using Tapatalk


I'm Reg Force. Remustered from another trade after 7 years. I heard rumours of a course at the end of August and one in the Winter. Hopefully don't have to wait until December. Which element are you?

Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk


----------



## LPike

J-Rex said:
			
		

> I'm Reg Force. Remustered from another trade after 7 years. I heard rumours of a course at the end of August and one in the Winter. Hopefully don't have to wait until December. Which element are you?
> 
> Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk



I'm in the same boat. I'm on the army side.

I'm on tasking, so I'm continually checking the CFSMI page.

I'll be a happy bunny if I don't have to wait until the winter.

Sent from my XT1563 using Tapatalk


----------



## j-rex

LPike said:
			
		

> I'm in the same boat. I'm on the army side.
> 
> I'm on tasking, so I'm continually checking the CFSMI page.
> 
> I'll be a happy bunny if I don't have to wait until the winter.
> 
> Sent from my XT1563 using Tapatalk


I'm Navy myself, so a little bit worried about when the environmental phase hits, we have a very small contingent compared to the other elements. The CFSMI page has the joining instructions posted on there now. It's for a course at the end of August. I wonder if we'll all get surprised a few weeks before it starts.

Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk


----------



## LPike

J-Rex said:
			
		

> I'm Navy myself, so a little bit worried about when the environmental phase hits, we have a very small contingent compared to the other elements. The CFSMI page has the joining instructions posted on there now. It's for a course at the end of August. I wonder if we'll all get surprised a few weeks before it starts.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk


Good to know, I'll check when I get back in the office. Do the JI list a start date?

Sent from my XT1563 using Tapatalk


----------



## j-rex

LPike said:
			
		

> Good to know, I'll check when I get back in the office. Do the JI list a start date?
> 
> Sent from my XT1563 using Tapatalk


It said that the report in date was either the 30 or 31 of August. There's a biography we must complete in memo style and some assignments to complete prior to course start as well.

Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk


----------



## pascalywood

Looks like I wont be on that one then, I'm to report to some obscure Air Force school in Kingston on August 25th while I wait for QL5 to start.


----------



## j-rex

pascalywood said:
			
		

> Looks like I wont be on that one then, I'm to report to some obscure Air Force school in Kingston on August 25th while I wait for QL5 to start.



Well, like all things in the military, things can change quite fast. They could always load you onto the course prior to you arriving at that Air Force school. My friend just re-mustered to Traffic Tech, she was loaded onto her course no more than 2 weeks prior to the course starting; anything is possible. Although, alternatively, the CFSMI training schedule said this course was originally starting in May 2016 and the next running course on Dec 04, 2016. Since the May course got pushed up to Aug 31, then the next course must be pushed to the right quite a bit. I also heard they have made major changes to every course after the one running on August 31, 2016. I can't say it has officially switched from a QL5 to a QL3, but from the sounds of it, it almost seems like it. Don't quote me on anything though.


----------



## pascalywood

I was wondering, are food and housing paid during the stay in Kingston or are there fees for that?


----------



## George Wallace

pascalywood said:
			
		

> I was wondering, are food and housing paid during the stay in Kingston or are there fees for that?



???

Are you really Regular Force?  It doesn't sound like it.

Not knowing your situation, I advise you to visit your OR and ask those questions.  We don't know if you will live in the Shacks or on the Economy.  We don't know if you are currently living in a house or in the Shacks at your previous posting.  We don't know if you are Single or Married.  We don't know if you are Posted, will be on TD, or what.


----------



## pascalywood

George Wallace said:
			
		

> ???
> 
> Are you really Regular Force?  It doesn't sound like it.
> 
> Not knowing your situation, I advise you to visit your OR and ask those questions.  We don't know if you will live in the Shacks or on the Economy.  We don't know if you are currently living in a house or in the Shacks at your previous posting.  We don't know if you are Single or Married.  We don't know if you are Posted, will be on TD, or what.



I was in the PRes from 2007 to 2013. Re-applied for the CF as Reg Force and was sworn in on August 4th. I'm currently on leave until I get to Kingston next week. So yes I am Reg Force but have pretty much no clue of how things will work once I get there. In the PRes I never had to pay for Q&R but I read here that things are done differently in the Reg Force. I'll check with the recruting office.


----------



## pascalywood

So any of you guys started the course yet? With some luck I'll be loaded on the course that is supposed to start in January.


----------



## mba2011

J-Rex said:
			
		

> I also heard they have made major changes to every course after the one running on August 31, 2016. I can't say it has officially switched from a QL5 to a QL3, but from the sounds of it, it almost seems like it. Don't quote me on anything though.



J-Rex,

The courses have not yet switched over. The change will happen once the final serials are completed this fall. It originally was supposed to happen before the fall serials, however issues and delays have necessitated the revision of the  timeline. 

Cheers,

Neverdismount


----------



## j-rex

NeverDismount said:
			
		

> J-Rex,
> 
> The courses have not yet switched over. The change will happen once the final serials are completed this fall. It originally was supposed to happen before the fall serials, however issues and delays have necessitated the revision of the  timeline.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Neverdismount


NeverDismount,

Thanks for clearing this up for us. I was not loaded onto August's course, so I assume I'll be on the next course, which will be the one that is changed with the new changes? Is it confirmed or estimated that the course will take place in January?

Thanks.

Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk


----------



## pascalywood

J-Rex said:
			
		

> NeverDismount,
> 
> Thanks for clearing this up for us. I was not loaded onto August's course, so I assume I'll be on the next course, which will be the one that is changed with the new changes? Is it confirmed or estimated that the course will take place in January?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk



Word here is that it is supposed to take place in January as of now but might be pushed to the right. Guess we won't know for sure until December.


----------



## j-rex

Any news about this course from anyone? I haven't heard anything from my holding unit.


----------



## pascalywood

J-Rex said:
			
		

> Any news about this course from anyone? I haven't heard anything from my holding unit.



Last I heard a QL5 will start around mid-January.


----------



## j-rex

Hey guys,

The newest information I have is that a course will start on January 17, 2016 and finishing around April 26, 2016. Has anyone heard anything differently? 

Also, what elements are you guys? Any other Navy guys in here?


----------



## j-rex

Has anyone received their course loading message yet? Christmas holidays and the course start date is approaching quite fast.


----------



## pascalywood

J-Rex said:
			
		

> Has anyone received their course loading message yet? Christmas holidays and the course start date is approaching quite fast.



Next QL5A starts on Jan 17th and will be Navy and Air Force only due to operationnal requirements. There will be a single Army guy on it. Don't know if the loading message is out yet though.


----------



## Dija

pascalywood said:
			
		

> Next QL5A starts on Jan 17th and will be Navy and Air Force only due to operationnal requirements. There will be a single Army guy on it. Don't know if the loading message is out yet though.



We saw quite a few guys have their elements switched to get loaded on course, I wish the branch wasn't so bottlenecked for QL5 training. There are people who have been waiting for YEARS.


----------



## thearmyman1212

Hello everyone,
First off, just wanted to say thank you to all the current and former members of the CAF, your service is appreciated!

Second, recently I have been doing intense research on joining the military and what not, and have also recently spoken to a recruiter. In April 2018, I will have a university degree in Criminology with Honours. My main point of interest is intelligence operator. I saw in a post on here that they do not accept intelligence operators right off the street and that you have to do another trade for a certain amount of years beforehand. However, the recruiter quickly shut that notion down and said I could, in fact, go right into intelligence (after BMQ and BMQ- Land). I was wondering why there are two opposite accounts on how to get into intelligence.

Also on a different (but similar) note, I have seen that most people are interested in reserves more so than Regular Force, and I was wondering why that is the case as I myself am looking at doing Regular Force. 

Any and all answers would be greatly appreciated!! Thank you again.


----------



## MarkOttawa

thearmyman1212

Some general background:



> The Scope of Canadian Forces’ Intelligence Activities (including HUMINT)
> https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2016/06/27/mark-collins-the-scope-of-canadian-forces-intelligence-activities-including-humint/
> 
> Not Much Noticed: Canadian Forces Intelligence Command (plus HUMINT) [has personnel numbers]
> https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2016/01/27/mark-collins-not-much-noticed-canadian-forces-intelligence-command-plus-humint/
> 
> Canadian Forces in Intelligence Big Leagues (with document)?
> https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2015/02/08/mark-collins-canadian-forces-in-intelligence-big-leagues-with-document/
> 
> Canadian Forces Intelligence Consolidation
> ...
> The bullet on JTF-X (cute, remember Camp X? [ https://www.google.ca/search?q=camp+x+oshawa&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&gws_rd=cr&ei=ow07UqBFiMOqAZGDgbgP ]) is the most public statement I’ve seen about the CF’s HUMINT capabilities...
> https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2013/09/19/mark-collins-canadian-forces-intelligence-consolidation/



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## pascalywood

Dija said:
			
		

> We saw quite a few guys have their elements switched to get loaded on course, I wish the branch wasn't so bottlenecked for QL5 training. There are people who have been waiting for YEARS.



A guy I know has been stuck on BTL for a whole year and got loaded on the current QL5 because the staff at CFSMI pushed for him to be loaded on it, even if he's Army. 

Actually Dija, I think we worked together at VA-35. I got an OJE in Val if it rings a bell.


----------



## JJR

Good Morning,

I just did an OT into the trade. Would anyone happen to know the course dates of the next Int-OP QL5 course? 

Thank You  [


----------



## da1root

JJR said:
			
		

> Good Morning,
> 
> I just did an OT into the trade. Would anyone happen to know the course dates of the next Int-OP QL5 course?
> 
> Thank You  [



This is a recruiting board; you may want to look for an area that is specific for Int Ops now that you're in, or speak with your chain of command.  
The search feature on here is fantastic.

Best of luck in your career


----------



## pascalywood

JJR said:
			
		

> Good Morning,
> 
> I just did an OT into the trade. Would anyone happen to know the course dates of the next Int-OP QL5 course?
> 
> Thank You  [



There is a French course in Quebec city on May 10th however it is (mostly) for reservists. There is also a French course in Kingston around the 18th of May. The next English course is likely to be in August/September in Kingston though they might run one in May as well.


----------



## Lex Justitia

For int. officers posted at embassies, does anyone know what their duties specifically entail? And would reservists be posted at embassies?

I'd ask my recruiter, but there won't be any replies until after next week (owing to vacation).

Thank you!


----------



## mariomike

E. B. Korcz Forrester said:
			
		

> For int. officers posted at embassies, does anyone know what their duties specifically entail? And would reservists be posted at embassies?



See also,

Embassy Question  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/57947.0

OJT at an embassy?
https://army.ca/forums/threads/79325.0

Working In an Embassey, and everything else! 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/33093.0

_As always,_  Recruiting is your most trusted source of _up to date_  information.


----------



## bothewarrior

I have been put on the Merit list for Int Op, and was granted to bypass BMQ and BMQ Land due to prior service in the reserve infantry. 
I know there is a course running army/navy int ops from someone I know who is a Int O and am wondering if I still have a shot at getting on this course considering its still at least a month away. Does anyone know when the next selection could take place? 
I find the Int threads on the forum are pretty dated, or isn't talked about much so if anyone has any information pls msg me or post!
Jumped on this opportunity the moment I saw the trade open and hoping with past Infantry training (5 years) I have a shot at getting in before the new year.
Currently im in the SuppRes, with my "membership" there extended to middle of September with the possibility of another extension. Ive been told ill keep my rank and pay so im worried if I don't get in before then ill possibly lose my RSBP and I don't really care to start over..

thanks all any insight is helpful. 
im familiar with hurry up and wait but the anxiousness is growing lol.


----------



## bothewarrior

JJR said:
			
		

> Good Morning,
> 
> I just did an OT into the trade. Would anyone happen to know the course dates of the next Int-OP QL5 course?
> 
> Thank You  [



I was told this past weekend the next course is September 2017 for Int Op.  Congrats on the OT btw, Im on the merit list hoping to get the course soon as well. 
hope that helps.


----------



## George Wallace

bobthewarrior said:
			
		

> I know there is a course running army/navy int ops from someone I know who is a Int O and am wondering if I still have a shot at getting on this course considering its still at least a month away. Does anyone know when the next selection could take place?



With the next Crse being run within the next month, it will already be Course Loaded with candidates.  Unless there is a last minute withdrawal from the Crse, your chances would seem to be very slim (and that goes for any course being run) to none.


----------



## Shrek1985

What, if any are the differences between NAVRES INT OP and other PRES INT OP?


----------



## George Wallace

Shrek1985 said:
			
		

> What, if any are the differences between NAVRES INT OP and other PRES INT OP?



NAVRES INT will focus solely on Naval matters.

PRES INT OPs will focus solely on the Air/Land scenarios.


----------



## Shrek1985

So, how would that be for a choice for "Get in the trade, get the course, begin career progression?"

I had understood INT to be near totally purple.


----------



## mariomike

Shrek1985 said:
			
		

> What, if any are the differences between NAVRES INT OP and other PRES INT OP?



Navy Reserve Intelligence  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/79200.75.html
4 pages.

Intelligence branch
https://army.ca/forums/threads/1458.0
3 pages.

Military Intelligence - Primary Reserves  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/23906.0
2 pages.

Reserve INT  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/19140.100
5 pages.

Intelligence reserve  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/366.0

etc...
https://www.google.ca/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&biw=1280&bih=603&q=site%3Aarmy.ca++reserve+int&oq=site%3Aarmy.ca++reserve+int&gs_l=psy-ab.12...0.0.0.35573.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0.foo%2Cersl%3D1%2Cfett%3D1%2Cewh%3D0%2Cnso-enksa%3D0%2Cnso-enfk%3D1%2Cnso-usnt%3D1%2Cnso-qnt-npqp%3D0-1%2Cnso-qnt-npdq%3D0-45%2Cnso-qnt-npt%3D0-09%2Cnso-qnt-ndc%3D300%2Ccspa-dspm-nm-mnp%3D0-045%2Ccspa-dspm-nm-mxp%3D0-1125%2Cnso-unt-npqp%3D0-15%2Cnso-unt-npdq%3D0-25%2Cnso-unt-npt%3D0-06%2Cnso-unt-ndc%3D300%2Ccspa-uipm-nm-mnp%3D0-0075%2Ccspa-uipm-nm-mxp%3D0-0525...0...1..64.psy-ab..0.0.0.nef8X502gUU


----------



## George Wallace

Shrek1985 said:
			
		

> So, how would that be for a choice for "Get in the trade, get the course, begin career progression?"
> 
> I had understood INT to be near totally purple.



You asked about PRES and NAVRES.  

Reg Force bounces back and forth between being totally PURPLE and Element Specific.


----------



## Shrek1985

New question; why in the hell would my grade 11 English mark be of sudden importance to the Intelligence trade?!

Of all the random things; I am a university graduate (BA SocSci/Military Science) WTF do they care about HIGHSCHOOL ENGLISH for?

More importantly, does anyone know what threshold they would be looking for?

My entire school career has been a nightmare for me, but higschool english was an especial low point. But I write for fun; I read voraciously. Surely I could submit essays or something?! Four years in this process and this is the first I've heard of this.


----------



## PuckChaser

That's odd considering you have post secondary education. I can see the importance of it in Int. Did you take an English elective for your degree?


----------



## Shrek1985

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> That's odd considering you have post secondary education. I can see the importance of it in Int. Did you take an English elective for your degree?



Odd would be an understatement.

And no; I have a degree in military science (cross-disciplinary). So I wrote tons of good essays, but I never saw one single additional word of Margaret Atwood or Shakespeare ever again.


----------



## bothewarrior

George Wallace said:
			
		

> With the next Crse being run within the next month, it will already be Course Loaded with candidates.  Unless there is a last minute withdrawal from the Crse, your chances would seem to be very slim (and that goes for any course being run) to none.



well I have beat the odds. Got the offer about joining through recruit bypass. Enroll in august start September 11.


----------



## Shrek1985

Man, glad I held off on my VOT schemes; I got my offer and my CT to INT Op is going through.

Now that I have my message, could anyone tell me where they are posting Int Ops after course?

Thank you for your time.


----------



## da1root

Shrek1985 said:
			
		

> Odd would be an understatement.
> 
> And no; I have a degree in military science (cross-disciplinary). So I wrote tons of good essays, but I never saw one single additional word of Margaret Atwood or Shakespeare ever again.



That's why they want it.

The ideal entry standards for Intelligence Operator is
1) Secondary school graduation certificate or Secondary V certificate of Quebec, including: English or French course at the gr 12 or Sec V level in Quebec
2) Any baccalaureate degree or post-secondary diploma.

The acceptable entry standards for Intelligence Operator is
1) Gr 11 high school Secondary V certificate of Quebec or equivalent secondary school education, including: English or French course at the gr 11 or Sec V level in Quebec

These entry standards are put into effect by the appropriate occupational advisor.  As you've stated you do not have an English credit at the university level, so without proving that you have English at the Gr 11/12 level you are not eligible to apply for Int Op.

You could request a PLAR (Prior Learning Assessment) based on your University experience however it would be up to the PLAR coordinator for your occupation and will lengthen your recruiting process by at least 4-6 weeks, if not longer.


----------



## waningcrows

I've seen a number of threads related to this, but haven't seen one recent enough that I'd really rely on (unless things are that stagnant), apart from the 2018/2019 DEO sticky.

I wrote my CFAT in 2016 and scored 'very high'. I was told this week that because of my scores, degrees, and background, I'd qualified for any of the Officer trades; so, my DEO picks are Int Officer, Pilot, and ACSO. 

I was also told the wait for anything further in the process could be 2-8 months. I know that these are specialized positions, so there may only be certain timeframes/courses where I can start training for them, post BMOQ.

That said, I've seen people on here with specialized trades waiting 1+ years just for BMQ/BMOQ - is this still true now that there is such a push for new CAF members?


----------



## SomeCodingNobody

I can't recall the exact thread that said it, but I remember reading something that said, "Even with the army needing a lot of people, they still have something like 4000+ applicants for something like 100ish jobs?" I'd have to dig on that a bit more, since that was pretty profound for me. So, that being said, you can easily be waiting 1+ years for BMQ/BMOQ -- just because you applied while they're seeking people, doesn't mean anything more. You're not owed a job or anything, as this forum is fond of saying, and it'll depend on where you are on that merit list.

Next, I guess I wanted to just type on Int Officer. That trade's pretty closed. No "hiring" on the top. Compare that to Pilot, which it does! (At least in the time of writing, April 2nd, 2018). You're not going to get into that, at all.

So, that being said, that 2-8 month process sounds about right, if not generous. It might be having a push for people, but the CAF definitely can afford to be choosy. I'd wait on the interview, hope you're high up on that merit list... and as everyone here loves saying..

Hurry up and Wait!


----------



## LegioXEquestris

Hey man, I'm happy to chip in with some of my experiences in the process. Please note that I'm just another humble applicant, much like yourself, so some informal suggestions is all I can give ya. 

I also did my CFAT back in 2016, scored "very high" (I feel those words are being thrown out there a lot) and qualified for every trade. My recruiter suggested Int DEO as well, given my language abilities and a compatible Master's degree from Oxford. For me though, it was combat arms or bust, so I didn't give the other trades much consideration and pushed on with my application. 

Looking at your signature, it is possible that you will be in for quite a wait. Reliability screening will take time to complete, but what could very well hold up your application is Pre-Sec. In my case the two of them took over a year to complete. As I've traveled and studied abroad quite extensively within the last ten years, this is perhaps understandable. It would appear that most CAF applicants did not have to sit through the process, and having a reliability screening was deemed sufficient. If you are Canadian born and raised, and have not been to problematic countries, then you may not have to go through with Pre-Sec (which can take 6-18 months to complete) at all. I was told that it was merely a formality, albeit a long one, since almost no one get their Pre-Sec denied.  

Coding has provided you some very solid stuff right there. INT DEO positions rarely open up (according to Buck CAF is looking to hire only 4 in the 2018/19 FY, and on the forces website it's not even listed as currently hiring). INT's a pretty niche occupation, and as one of the "cool" jobs it has a lot of appeal so competition for openings is likely intense. Having said that, if you have a killer CFAT score and meet and exceed all the right criteria, there's nothing stopping you from getting an offer if and when the selection board for that occupation convenes.

Pilot is always looking to hire, and for good reasons: many don't even make it to the competition list. Unlike most occupations, there are a variety of factors that could end your application. Low CFAT score is the first hurdle for many, medical is the other (e.g. less than 20/20 vision and you can forget about it). Air Crew Selection's no picnic either. Not everyone's cut out for the job, but that just means if you make it to the competition list then your chances are looking pretty good. The problem with INT is that there aren't too many hurdles; a very high CFAT score may get you on the competition list but when you are competing against so many for so few openings, there's no telling how long you might have to wait.

I also feel that many applicants get the wrong impression with how "desperate" CAF is looking to recruit. Some news outlets talk no end about how CAF is short on personnel and struggles with retention. There may be some truth to it, but what many of them neglects to mention is that apparently "far more Canadians — by a factor of 10 — show interest in enlisting than the armed forces actually take in any given year" (please see this Feb 2018 article http://toronto.citynews.ca/2018/02/19/us-fight-for-military-recruits-not-echoed-in-canada-but-problems-remain/). I think a lot of recruiters also do not let on how competitive the process can be, perhaps not wanting to discourage potentially qualified applicants. As for DEO applications, so many people have university degrees these days a Bachelor's or Master's will hardly make anyone stand out.

Also bear in mind that BMOQs happen only so many times a year, and definitely far less frequently than BMQs. Even if you receive an offer, therefore, you may still have to wait several month before going off to basic. By the same token, DEO selections occur less frequently than NCM selections, which may also contribute to longer wait times.

I don't want to paint a picture of doom and gloom. Nevertheless, I think it is very important for you to have a realistic expectation of the process. Ultimately, if CAF thinks you have what it takes, you will be given a chance. It will take time, however, and unfortunately there is no getting around that. The recruitment process is far from perfect, but it does work - and you have to make it work. Be proactive and get all your documents right can go some way in speeding up Pre-Sec. It sounds like you have a good application going, and with your interview coming up you still have time to improve on your chances. Research everything you can about your chosen trades, ask yourself why you want to join the force and why specifically the trades you chose. 

At the risk of giving you an answer on something I have no authority on, I'm just gonna come out and say that there is no way your application for those trades will get processed in a couple of month. Whether it stays under a year could very well depend on whether you have to go through Pre-Sec. 

At the end of the day, I'm just another applicant like you, so take what I've said here as you will. Much of the process is simply out of your control. I will say this though: you may not control how long it takes, but you sure as hell can determine where you sit on that competition list. Your CFAT is done, but there is still the interview to go. Work on it and give it all you've got. I wish you all the best!


----------



## OceanBonfire

LegioXEquestris said:
			
		

> .... As for DEO applications, so many people have university degrees these days a Bachelor's or Master's will hardly make anyone stand out.
> 
> ...



Depends on how you define "many people". No more than 31% of adult Canadians holds at least a Bachelor's degree:

https://www.facebook.com/StatisticsCanada/photos/a.168165143295004.32908.125909694187216/1367581120020061/?type=3&theater

From my perception, having at least a Bachelor's degree makes you stand out.


----------



## Loachman

OceanBonfire said:
			
		

> From my perception, having at least a Bachelor's degree makes you stand out.



It took my daughter many years at Rotten Ronnie's (yes, just like the old joke) to pay off her student debt for her BA, and she was not the only one like that at her McDonald's.


----------



## LegioXEquestris

OceanBonfire said:
			
		

> Depends on how you define "many people". No more than 31% of adult Canadians holds at least a Bachelor's degree:
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/StatisticsCanada/photos/a.168165143295004.32908.125909694187216/1367581120020061/?type=3&theater
> 
> From my perception, having at least a Bachelor's degree makes you stand out.



OP is taking the officer route, and in addressing his question I was specifically referring to DEO applications. Considering that all direct entry occupations require a university degree as a prerequisite, having only a Bachelor's certainly won't make you stand out from the crowd.


----------



## OceanBonfire

LegioXEquestris said:
			
		

> OP is taking the officer route, and in addressing his question I was specifically referring to DEO applications. Considering that all direct entry occupations require a university degree as a prerequisite, having only a Bachelor's certainly won't make you stand out from the crowd.



But he didn't asked about the level of education. For that part I'm pretty sure anybody would have figured that out...


----------



## LegioXEquestris

OceanBonfire said:
			
		

> But he didn't asked about the level of education. For that part I'm pretty sure anybody would have figured that out...



That's fair enough. In that case I will concede that my sentence was redundant. It's not factually incorrect, however, as I simply said that for DEO applicants a Bachelor's will not make one stand out. 

I was just trying to help the OP (Waningcrows) by giving him some personal advice that I wish I had when I started my application almost 2 years ago. I was not at all trying to discourage OP by saying he is not an outstanding applicant. Just wanted to highlight two important observations I picked up during this time: (1) even though CAF is pushing for new members, the process is selective, perhaps more so than OP realises, and (2) regardless of how competitive OP is, the process will in all likelihood take some time to complete, and whether OP makes it to basic in 2-8 months will depend on a lot of things, not all of which are in his control.


----------



## G8r

As an intOps recruit, I have been informed that after BMQ, I will be transferred to Intelligence School Kingston and while awaiting a spot in course, will be on Basic Training List.  What will this entail?  Am I looking at 4-6 months of mopping floors and peeling potatoes?


----------



## G8r

I have been informed that after BMQ and BMQ Land, that I will report to CFSMI in Kingston, and while waiting 4-8 months for a spot in a course, I will be BMQ List.  I assume that this essentially puts you to work on the base while awaiting specialized training.  But what kind of work do recruits on List perform?  Am I looking at 6 months of swabbing floors and peeling potatoes?  If I am not trained for my chosen MOC, then what will I be doing until I am brought in for course training?  I appreciate any insight.


----------



## da1root

G8r said:
			
		

> I have been informed that after BMQ and BMQ Land, that I will report to CFSMI in Kingston, and while waiting 4-8 months for a spot in a course, I will be BMQ List.  I assume that this essentially puts you to work on the base while awaiting specialized training.  But what kind of work do recruits on List perform?  Am I looking at 6 months of swabbing floors and peeling potatoes?  If I am not trained for my chosen MOC, then what will I be doing until I am brought in for course training?  I appreciate any insight.



This type of employment is called "General Duty" (GD).  You can be doing many things; it depends on what is required on the base.  My unit in Borden has 2-3 people from the BTL and we've employed them as Drivers.


----------



## G8r

Thank you for your response.  I love driving.  I could handle that.

On an aside, anyone know how I can delete my double post?


----------



## Pikache

G8r said:
			
		

> As an intOps recruit, I have been informed that after BMQ, I will be transferred to Intelligence School Kingston and while awaiting a spot in course, will be on Basic Training List.  What will this entail?  Am I looking at 4-6 months of mopping floors and peeling potatoes?


It will depend on which BTL you get assigned to, and whether there is an int unit or organization willing to take you on for OJT. What you do for OJT will depend on a lot of things. How busy that unit is, whether they have pers available to mentor you, etc. Some int units will train you to certain level and take you on exercises and such. At some other units you may end up doing very little or GD. 

How much you get out of any OJT time is up to you. As a future int op, you should be doing a lot of self learning anyways. If you do get a chance to do OJT at an int unit (try to get to an ASIC), ask if there is a training plan for OJTs, and what can you learn on your own. I would concentrate on briefing/public speaking skills, researching and basic military tactics (doctrine, how each arms fight/operate, etc) to get you prepared for QL3.


----------



## Loachman

What is your current security clearance level?


----------



## pascalywood

G8r said:
			
		

> I have been informed that after BMQ and BMQ Land, that I will report to CFSMI in Kingston, and while waiting 4-8 months for a spot in a course, I will be BMQ List.  I assume that this essentially puts you to work on the base while awaiting specialized training.  But what kind of work do recruits on List perform?  Am I looking at 6 months of swabbing floors and peeling potatoes?  If I am not trained for my chosen MOC, then what will I be doing until I am brought in for course training?  I appreciate any insight.



It all depends. When I was on BTL at CFSMI at first we had a MCpl and a WO that gave us lessons about AFV recognition, maps, ethics, past conflicts, etc. Then those guys had to leave and we were back to moving chairs around, driving, working at CQ. CFSMI is short staffed and they dont have the manpower to assign someone fulltime to teach the ropes of the trade to the OJT.


----------



## Jackal2018

Hello everyone,

I have searched through the forums but was unable to find the answer to my questions below. I hope I am asking them in the right place.

I am interested in joining the CAF as an Intelligence Officer. I am going to be writing the CFAT and doing the Physical Forces test this week.
Only the Navy Reserves are accepting Intelligence Officer applications (The Army reserves apparently closed it a couple of weeks back so I was too late in applying).
I went to the information session at the Navy Reserves unit here in Montreal and I was told that they are always accepting applications for Intelligence Officers and don't have a limit (unless I misheard or misunderstood).
How true is this and what does it mean for me? Will I actually have a chance at this trade or is it there to pull in candidates for the other trades? I liked the presentation and the unit itself and would like to join there but I don't understand how they can always be accepting candidates for this trade when, as far as I understand, it is one of the most competitive ones out there, with the army reserves filling their openings almost immediately.

Someone in the Army Reserves told me that with this Naval Reserve unit I would not be a real Intelligence Officer and that is why they are always accepting candidates, but didn't elaborate on why more than "because it's a stone frigate, they take all trades but don't use them"

The other thing is that I initially started my CAF application with the Army Reserves so the Naval Reserves Unit told me to call them after my CFAT in order to transfer the file to them.
Does this mean that I will lose any chance at my other Officer choices in the army reserves if it doesn't pan out for me as Intelligence Officer.

I really hope I didn't post this in the wrong place as I've scoured the forums for answer to these questions.

Much appreciated,

Jackal2018


----------



## da1root

Jackal2018 said:
			
		

> Hello everyone,
> 
> I have searched through the forums but was unable to find the answer to my questions below. I hope I am asking them in the right place.
> 
> I am interested in joining the CAF as an Intelligence Officer. I am going to be writing the CFAT and doing the Physical Forces test this week.
> Only the Navy Reserves are accepting Intelligence Officer applications (The Army reserves apparently closed it a couple of weeks back so I was too late in applying).
> I went to the information session at the Navy Reserves unit here in Montreal and I was told that they are always accepting applications for Intelligence Officers and don't have a limit (unless I misheard or misunderstood).
> How true is this and what does it mean for me? Will I actually have a chance at this trade or is it there to pull in candidates for the other trades? I liked the presentation and the unit itself and would like to join there but I don't understand how they can always be accepting candidates for this trade when, as far as I understand, it is one of the most competitive ones out there, with the army reserves filling their openings almost immediately.
> 
> Someone in the Army Reserves told me that with this Naval Reserve unit I would not be a real Intelligence Officer and that is why they are always accepting candidates, but didn't elaborate on why more than "because it's a stone frigate, they take all trades but don't use them"
> 
> The other thing is that I initially started my CAF application with the Army Reserves so the Naval Reserves Unit told me to call them after my CFAT in order to transfer the file to them.
> Does this mean that I will lose any chance at my other Officer choices in the army reserves if it doesn't pan out for me as Intelligence Officer.
> 
> I really hope I didn't post this in the wrong place as I've scoured the forums for answer to these questions.
> 
> Much appreciated,
> 
> Jackal2018



"Stone Frigates" (Naval Reserve Divisions) do have positions for all NAVRES occupations; that doesn't mean that they don't do their occupation though.  The Army Reserve is often set-up (with the exception of Service Battalions) that each unit is for one type of occupation (Infantry, Artillery, Signals, MPs, Intelligence, etc); however NAVRES Units have all available Navy Reserve occupations at each unit.  Intelligence Officer is new within NAVRES (it used to be a NAVRES trade, got removed for a number of years and is reintroduced again).

As to them "always" accepting applications; again the Army and the Navy differ.  When a Army unit fills all of it's applications it cannot "borrow" from another unit.  Where as NAVRES is able to shift it's positions from unit to unit.  So while HMCS DONNACONA might fill all of it's positions early in the year, HMCS MALAHAT might not, which means DON can "borrow" positions from MAL (with approval from NAVRESHQ).  This is why they're always able to accept applications; because until the national quota has been filled they're able to enroll more members.

In regards to your other question about your Army occupations remaining open, you'd need to discuss this with either your Army or Navy Recruiter.  The Reserves has "owned" their own recruiting for the last 2 years; previously you could apply to multiple units but now that each element is in charge of their own recruiting this may have changed.


----------



## Jackal2018

Buck_HRA said:
			
		

> "Stone Frigates" (Naval Reserve Divisions) do have positions for all NAVRES occupations; that doesn't mean that they don't do their occupation though.  The Army Reserve is often set-up (with the exception of Service Battalions) that each unit is for one type of occupation (Infantry, Artillery, Signals, MPs, Intelligence, etc); however NAVRES Units have all available Navy Reserve occupations at each unit.  Intelligence Officer is new within NAVRES (it used to be a NAVRES trade, got removed for a number of years and is reintroduced again).
> 
> As to them "always" accepting applications; again the Army and the Navy differ.  When a Army unit fills all of it's applications it cannot "borrow" from another unit.  Where as NAVRES is able to shift it's positions from unit to unit.  So while HMCS DONNACONA might fill all of it's positions early in the year, HMCS MALAHAT might not, which means DON can "borrow" positions from MAL (with approval from NAVRESHQ).  This is why they're always able to accept applications; because until the national quota has been filled they're able to enroll more members.
> 
> In regards to your other question about your Army occupations remaining open, you'd need to discuss this with either your Army or Navy Recruiter.  The Reserves has "owned" their own recruiting for the last 2 years; previously you could apply to multiple units but now that each element is in charge of their own recruiting this may have changed.



Thank you for the detailed answer Buck. This does clear up a lot of confusion that I had regarding this.
I was getting conflicting information regarding applying at two different units at the same time, but it was cleared up to me yesterday that you can in fact only have a single application either for Army Reserves or Naval Reserves, but not at the same time.

I have to choose between the two occupations at this time and it's a hard choice, but I'm doing my research and asking more questions at the units and the recruiters.

Thanks again.


----------



## Jackal2018

Regarding the interview for Intelligence Officer trade, I understand that I am expected to be explain what the trade does and everything around it.
The information I have found has been sparse however.
For example, there is the Intelligence Officer page on the DND website, but doesn't say much about Navy or Navy Reserves.
There is also http://www.navy-marine.forces.gc.ca/en/navy-life/careers-reserve which speaks briefly about naval reserves intelligence, but not too many details.
As far as I can see from my searches on these forums, there aren't many details to be found on this either (regarding the interview specifically).

Would anyone be able to tell me what other specific things I will be expected to know so I can better prepare for the interview?

Edit: To clarify, I have read and am rereading this thread for more information, but I wanted to know what information I would need to know specifically for the interview.


----------



## Jackal2018

Jackal2018 said:
			
		

> Regarding the interview for Intelligence Officer trade, I understand that I am expected to be explain what the trade does and everything around it.
> The information I have found has been sparse however.
> For example, there is the Intelligence Officer page on the DND website, but doesn't say much about Navy or Navy Reserves.
> There is also http://www.navy-marine.forces.gc.ca/en/navy-life/careers-reserve which speaks briefly about naval reserves intelligence, but not too many details.
> As far as I can see from my searches on these forums, there aren't many details to be found on this either (regarding the interview specifically).
> 
> Would anyone be able to tell me what other specific things I will be expected to know so I can better prepare for the interview?
> 
> Edit: To clarify, I have read and am rereading this thread for more information, but I wanted to know what information I would need to know specifically for the interview.



It seems I misunderstood what is required to be known about an Officer trade for the interview. I initially assumed I was supposed to know the minutiae of the day-to-day work than an intelligence officer does. Without giving away much about the interview, the expectation is not to know everything prior to the interview like I assumed, but to make sure you enough enough about the trade to know what you're getting into. I realize my assumption was a little silly now.
I just wanted anyone to come across this question to not panic about not knowing absolutely everything before the interview.

I hope I'm not giving too much away about the interview so feel free to delete this post if I am.


----------



## Lumber

NAVRES IntO = NAVRES Staff Officer...

That's my take on the duties of an IntO after 3 years working for NAVRES.

Actually, now that I think about it, all officers at NRDs = staff officers. 

Really, they should all be PAOs given it's one of the primary purposes of NAVRES.


----------



## Jackal2018

Lumber said:
			
		

> NAVRES IntO = NAVRES Staff Officer...
> 
> That's my take on the duties of an IntO after 3 years working for NAVRES.
> 
> Actually, now that I think about it, all officers at NRDs = staff officers.
> 
> Really, they should all be PAOs given it's one of the primary purposes of NAVRES.



In your experience, what would be the day-to-day of an IntO in the NAVRES?


----------



## Lumber

There is no "day to day" duties of IntOs in NAVRES.

There are no "Intelligence Officer" positions in the Naval Reserve. 

First, let be clear on what I mean when I say, “the Naval Reserve”. I don’t mean everyone who is a naval “reservist”, I mean the specific collection of units and organizations that make up the Naval Reserve. This includes the 24 Naval Reserve Divisions (NRDs), the Headquarters, and to a lesser extent, Naval Fleet School Quebec (which technically a part of a Reg Force organization (NPTG), but for all intents and purposes, it’s a Reserve unit).

Second, let me be clear on what I mean by “Intelligence Officer Position”. There are a few positions within the naval reserve that specifically call for an Intelligence Officer, such as the Intelligence Section’s divisional officer position at NRDs, the IntO training officer(s) at Fleet School, etc. However, there are no positions (yet) within the Naval Reserve where Naval Reserve Intelligence Officers will be asked to perform actual intelligence gathering and analysis, and production of intelligence products.

So, if you are an IntO working within the Naval Reserve (full time or part time), all you will be doing is administration, and lots of it, most having nothing to do with Intelligence. You’ll be a divisional officer responsible for junior officers or junior sailors (IntOps), and you’ll take on whatever projects your department head wants to send your way. You could be overseeing the construction/implementation of a new security network at your building, performing a research project on the acquisition of radars for the unit, developing a training plan for the Intelligence section, assisting the OpsO in designing whole unit/regional training exercises, etc…

Every now and then (6 weekends throughout the year) there will be Naval Reserve “Intelligence Officer Training Weekends” across the country that you can sign up for. I have no idea what happens at these weekends, but I hear there’s lots of beer and shenanigans. I believe the most “advanced” intelligence products that they produce over these “training” weekends is summaries on different nations, military equipment, and world leaders, all using open source intelligence. Whether these products actually get distributed for use, I have no idea (maybe someone can confirm?). 

Now, that all being said, there ARE opportunities for a Naval Reserve IntO to work as an actual Intelligence Officer, but all of these jobs are outside of the Naval Reserve. You can go on overseas deployment in Bahrain or Iraq, you can sign up for exercises like RIMPAC, or you can take a long term contract working at TRINITY, which is the Maritime Operational Support & Intelligence Center (MOSIC) in Halifax. You’d be doing actual Intelligence Officer work, but TRINITY is a Regular Force unit, so not “within the Naval Reserve”.

Hope this helps.


----------



## Jackal2018

Lumber said:
			
		

> There is no "day to day" duties of IntOs in NAVRES.
> 
> There are no "Intelligence Officer" positions in the Naval Reserve.
> 
> First, let be clear on what I mean when I say, “the Naval Reserve”. I don’t mean everyone who is a naval “reservist”, I mean the specific collection of units and organizations that make up the Naval Reserve. This includes the 24 Naval Reserve Divisions (NRDs), the Headquarters, and to a lesser extent, Naval Fleet School Quebec (which technically a part of a Reg Force organization (NPTG), but for all intents and purposes, it’s a Reserve unit).
> 
> Second, let me be clear on what I mean by “Intelligence Officer Position”. There are a few positions within the naval reserve that specifically call for an Intelligence Officer, such as the Intelligence Section’s divisional officer position at NRDs, the IntO training officer(s) at Fleet School, etc. However, there are no positions (yet) within the Naval Reserve where Naval Reserve Intelligence Officers will be asked to perform actual intelligence gathering and analysis, and production of intelligence products.
> 
> So, if you are an IntO working within the Naval Reserve (full time or part time), all you will be doing is administration, and lots of it, most having nothing to do with Intelligence. You’ll be a divisional officer responsible for junior officers or junior sailors (IntOps), and you’ll take on whatever projects your department head wants to send your way. You could be overseeing the construction/implementation of a new security network at your building, performing a research project on the acquisition of radars for the unit, developing a training plan for the Intelligence section, assisting the OpsO in designing whole unit/regional training exercises, etc…
> 
> Every now and then (6 weekends throughout the year) there will be Naval Reserve “Intelligence Officer Training Weekends” across the country that you can sign up for. I have no idea what happens at these weekends, but I hear there’s lots of beer and shenanigans. I believe the most “advanced” intelligence products that they produce over these “training” weekends is summaries on different nations, military equipment, and world leaders, all using open source intelligence. Whether these products actually get distributed for use, I have no idea (maybe someone can confirm?).
> 
> Now, that all being said, there ARE opportunities for a Naval Reserve IntO to work as an actual Intelligence Officer, but all of these jobs are outside of the Naval Reserve. You can go on overseas deployment in Bahrain or Iraq, you can sign up for exercises like RIMPAC, or you can take a long term contract working at TRINITY, which is the Maritime Operational Support & Intelligence Center (MOSIC) in Halifax. You’d be doing actual Intelligence Officer work, but TRINITY is a Regular Force unit, so not “within the Naval Reserve”.
> 
> Hope this helps.



It helps a lot. Thank you for the insight.
I think I understand the reality of trade as you described it, especially since I heard the trade was taken out and just recently reintroduced again in the NAVRES.
About those deployments or long term contracts, are there real chances of being able to do them after getting trade qualified? Do they require changing to the Regular Force?

Thanks again.


----------



## Lumber

Jackal2018 said:
			
		

> About those deployments or long term contracts, are there real chances of being able to do them after getting trade qualified? Do they require changing to the Regular Force?
> 
> Thanks again.



Nope. One thing you'll become quite familiar with is CFTPOs (basically short term taskings) and "REOs" (reserve employment opportunities - these are essentially job bulletins for reservists (not just naval reservists)).

In either of these cases, they will be advertising trying to specifically attract reservists (there will be other job postings/tasking opportunities aimed specifically at Reg Force IntOs). All you do is taken on a short term contract (1-6 month) or long term contract (2-3 years) for these exercises/units, but your status as a "reservists" does not change the entire time, which means at ANY point, you can simply say "screw this, I'm done, I'm going back to my old job".**

**Caveat: unless there's a war; then you're not going ANYWHERE!


----------



## Blackadder1916

Jackal2018 said:
			
		

> About those deployments or long term contracts, are there real chances of being able to do them after getting trade qualified? Do they require changing to the Regular Force?





			
				Lumber said:
			
		

> Nope. One thing you'll become quite familiar with is CFTPOs (basically short term taskings) and "REOs" (reserve employment opportunities - these are essentially job bulletins for reservists (not just naval reservists)).




Further to Lumber's explanation, Reserve Employment Opportunities are online if you want to see what is available.   http://armyapp.forces.gc.ca/reo-oer/en/index.aspx


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## Jackal2018

Thanks to Lumber and Blackadder1916 for all the information. It's been very helpful. I'm very excited to get started in the CF.

Now all I need to do is wait and hope that everything goes well in my application.

Wish me luck.


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## polska

Hi everyone,

Apologies for resurrecting a long dead thread, but I can't seem to find an answer.   Are Air Force and Navy Intelligence Officers still required to do CAP (BMOQ-L)?


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## Bushman242

polska said:
			
		

> Hi everyone,
> 
> Apologies for resurrecting a long dead thread, but I can't seem to find an answer.   Are Air Force and Navy Intelligence Officers still required to do CAP (BMOQ-L)?



I am wondering the exact same thing so thanks for asking! It doesn't specify on the site that only Land candidates need to complete the Common Army phase... it seems as though an Int Officer inherently needs the Land training, regardless of posted environment.


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## Jstock92

Hey guys, Im looking for some information from past or present Intelligence operators.

I just put in my VOT last month. I would like to hear something from people with real experience, as after 6 years in my current trade I understand that the videos on the Forces website can be a bit misleading.

Cheers


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## doydeldog

Hi, there! It's my first post so I'm sorry if it's not in the right place. I'm sure it's been asked a hundred times but most of what I searched is relatively dated information - so I was hoping for some fresh insight.

I've been considering a few trades, but the NCM Intelligence Operator has stood out to me so far. I've yet to ask the recruitment office about it yet but I was just looking to get a take from people who have a general idea about it. I'm mainly interested in knowing how competitive of a trade it is; how hard it is to get into and an estimation of how high I might need to score in the CFAT to be eligible. Any other information about the job, apart from what the video says on the career site, would also be greatly appreciated!


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## alwaysfresh

Has anyone had any experience with IntOp reserves side? I’m just wondering about education standards. I failed out of my university a few years ago due to poor study habits and being young and stupid. I see that, I’ve worked to beat it, and I’m set to graduate next year from a CC. I know IntOp only requires grade 10, but will my university marks reduce my chances of getting in?


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## jaysfan17

I was wondering if i could get some insight on how lengthy the process is of VOT’ing from Inf O to Int O. Specially, what does the whole “trades being red or green mean”. Does red mean they need more people?


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## PuckChaser

If the trade you are leaving is red, they cap how many people can transfer out every year. If the trade you want to move to is red, they're have a low PML and accept more VOTs than a green trade. Green to red = "easier", Red to Green = difficult


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## jaysfan17

PuckChaser said:


> If the trade you are leaving is red, they cap how many people can transfer out every year. If the trade you want to move to is red, they're have a low PML and accept more VOTs than a green trade. Green to red = "easier", Red to Green = difficult


Roger, thank you.

I suspect Inf O to Int O will be the ‘red to green’ scenario.


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## dapaterson

Int is Red because of growing demand.

Inf trades are relatively easy to fill - training is inexpensive, and there's generally a solid number of Res to Reg CTs.  So leaving Inf should not be a big issue.


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