# Jungle Warfare



## PPCLI MCpl (22 Nov 2004)

*Canadian troops may learn jungle warfare*

OTTAWA - Canadian soldiers may soon be chopping their way through the jungles of South and Central America, the head of the army says. 
  
Lt.-Gen. Rick Hillier told the Toronto Star that he's working on a plan to train troops in jungle warfare. 

He said he has no plans to dispatch the army to a specific skirmish, but wants it ready to fight in any environment. 

"We know we're going to operate around the world," the army commander said in a newspaper report published Monday. "We need to make sure we have resident in our army those skills sets." 

Under the plan, Canadians would train Central and South American forces in peacekeeping in exchange for a schooling in jungle combat. 

The plan moved closer to reality last week, when Hillier and Defence Minister Bill Graham discussed it with their counterparts at a defence meeting in Ecuador. 

Hillier said the plan will strengthen Canada's ties with other armed forces while helping southern countries that want a stronger presence on the world stage, such as Uruguay. 

Written by CBC News Online staff


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## Gunnerlove (22 Nov 2004)

Kind of like the US Canada training exchange that went on during Vietnam. We sent troops to the states they trained and deployed them. Not a bad way for eager peacetime soldiers to get some experience they otherwise would not get.


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## HollywoodHitman (22 Nov 2004)

Interesting that they're looking to begin this type of training. I think it's about time as the Jungle environment requires a completely different set of skills than what we're used to. 

I wonder if it is possible that Canada may begin to look at some missions closer to home, maybe in S. America etc to take pressure of the US commitments in those areas..........


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## pbi (22 Nov 2004)

There's actually nothing new about this. For years the Inf Bns sent guys to the Australian Army Jungle Warfare Centre (at Canungra??), to the US Army jungle warfare facility in Panama, and to Jamaica. This training, like all of the other good Inf stuff we used to do alot of, seems to have become a casualty of budgets and op tempo. Good to see it coming back. IMHO the more "real" infanty training we do, the better., a opposed to rumbling around as GIBs (Guys In the Back). Cheers.


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## HollywoodHitman (22 Nov 2004)

PBI, 

I seem to recall that in the past the only ones who were able to go on the courses in Aus or Panama had to be Sgt. or better and that the odds of being selected were somewhat similar to winning the POWERBALL lottery.........Has this changed?

TM


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## pbi (22 Nov 2004)

HollywoodHitman said:
			
		

> PBI,
> 
> I seem to recall that in the past the only ones who were able to go on the courses in Aus or Panama had to be Sgt. or better and that the odds of being selected were somewhat similar to winning the POWERBALL lottery.........Has this changed?
> 
> TM



No: IIRC we sent entire companies. I know for a fact that in 3PPCLI we sent Recce Pl complete to Panama. At one time we were a "patrolling Army" and we invested alot of effort into being good at those skills. I'm not sure exactly where we would stack up today: I would be very interested to hear the opinions of those in bn now.


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## Fusaki (22 Nov 2004)

Man, this sort of thing would be sweet.

I haven't been in long enough to take part in anything like this before, but I can imagine it would be a good go. A few weeks of patrolling in the jungle and the possibility of partying in South America? Definitely a get away from the everyday. This is the kind of training I joined for.


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## JBP (23 Nov 2004)

Good to hear!

I'm still hoping that I'll one day (down the road 2-3 yrs) I can get something like unarmed combat and/or basic mountain ops courses in Reserve. Any chance of those or any "Jungle" type courses comming to reserves???

I imagine I cut my chances at least 3X compare to reg force but do reserve guys get training like that too???

PS> I swear in Dec 9th so can't ask anyone in my unit yet...


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## Matt_Fisher (23 Nov 2004)

Ghostwalk,

Be careful for what you wish for.  Nothing like having a millipede crawl down your shorts to get the adrenaline going.   ;D

All in all though, I'm happy for you guys to have the opportunity once again to broaden your training experiences.  In hindsight I am kind of surprised when Canada negotiated the 'Subs for Training Areas' deal that Canadian access to the British Army Jungle Training Center in Belize wasn't in the contract.  Same thing could have been done for the VanDoos and other franco units with the French jungle training center in Guyana.

Even here in the US, access to jungle training has become more problematic with the closure of Ft. Sherman in Panama.  We Marines have a jungle training facility in Okinawa and have the opportunity to train in Thailand and Singapore as part of Western Pacific deployments.
I don't know what the US Army is doing for jungle training since Ft. Sherman was closed.


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## Michael Dorosh (23 Nov 2004)

I thought 3 PPCLI used be referred to as "the jungle battalion' because of the training the did on the west coast in the rain forest environment - about 15 years ago?


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## armyrules (23 Nov 2004)

oooh jungle warfare how interesting. 
 Would this type of training be longer than other types?


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## pbi (23 Nov 2004)

The terrain and climate on Vancouver Island contribute to some very "jungle-like" areas. In the vicinity of Nanaimo, back in the logging areas, is a region known as Deadwood Valley. When I was in 3PPCLI (1983-86) we used to do patrol trg there quite a bit, and one year we ran a battalion patrol competition there. It was an area of swamps, rock, and extremely thick canopy. There was also extensive deadfall, which I suppose gave rise to the name. It was so dark in the valley at night that you literally could not see your hand in front of your face-we sometimes put our compasses over our backs so the soldier behind could see the guy in front of him(glowsticks and luminous cats-eyes were not yet common). I can recall taking about three hours to go a kilometre: fall in a swamp, get up, fall over a log, get up, fall in a swamp, etc. Loads of fun for the guy carrying the GPMG. It was very challenging terrain and I imagine somewhat resembled a jungle area.   All Inf should get a chance to work on patrolling under those conditions. Cheers.


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## armyrules (23 Nov 2004)

Thanx for that insight pbi it sounds fun


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## HollywoodHitman (23 Nov 2004)

Patrolling here on the 'Wet Coast' can be a challenge and a chore. Some of the rain forests here have enough deadfall and whatnot to do a great job of simulating a 'Jungle' environment. About the only thing we're missing are the creepy crawlies and the heat.......Oh yeah, and the nice warm, water.......With any luck the 3VP will start sending troops through and some spots will open up for the rentals. 

TM


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## rw4th (23 Nov 2004)

It's funny that stuff like this is even considered news.



> CBC: Army to get training
> Population: Ooooooo, Ahhhhhhh



I'm surprised they didn't spin it as "Jungle Peacekeeping"  :


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## OLD F of S (23 Nov 2004)

This is not new, in the 70s the CAR trained in Jamacia for jungle warfare. I was Sigs support
2 years for the exercises and it is about time they brought the training back.

                             Regards


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## HollywoodHitman (23 Nov 2004)

Old F of S.....

The 70's........you said it. To the army today, this is going to be new. (Thats not a shot at age.......I learned to stop doing that when I started to feel it!) 

TM


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## dutchie (23 Nov 2004)

Did anyone else immediately think of Sudan when reading this story? That was my first thought.


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## enfield (23 Nov 2004)

Why the need to begun relationships with potentially dodgy (ie, politically unpalatable given recent histories) S American/ SE Asia/African states? Do the Brits (Belize & Brunei), French (Guyana), Aussies, or Americans (Okinawa) suddenly not like us?

Jungle training sounds like a blast, and something we haven't had any of (except East Timor?) for too long, given the likelihood of deploying to a jungle terrain.
Any thoughts on further specialized training, like Desert?


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## Infanteer (23 Nov 2004)

Caesar said:
			
		

> Did anyone else immediately think of Sudan when reading this story? That was my first thought.



Being that Sudan is a desert, I am not sure why you would think of this....


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## dutchie (23 Nov 2004)

From a google search on 'sudan climate':

_Although Sudan lies within the tropics, the climate ranges from arid in the north to tropical wet-and-dry in the far southwest.....From January to March, the country is under the influence of the dry northeasterlies.....By early April, the moist southwesterlies have reached southern Sudan, bringing heavy rains and thunderstorms. By July the moist air has reached Khartoum, and in August it extends to its usual northern limits around Abu Hamad, although in some years the humid air may even reach the Egyptian border.....Yambio, close to the border with Zaire, has a nine-month rainy season (April-December) and receives an average of 1,142 millimeters of rain each year; Khartoum has a three-month rainy season (JulySeptember ) with an annual average rainfall of 161 millimeters; Atbarah receives showers in August that produce an annual average of only 74 millimeters. _ 

http://countrystudies.us/sudan/33.htm

not trying to get into a pis*ing contest here Infanteer, just seems that the climate in Sudan includes wet/tropical/jungle areas.

Did you have other info re:this? I didn't know either, and had to check.


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## Infanteer (23 Nov 2004)

No worries.   Good thing to point out - it only seems likely that the south would contain jungles when you consider it borders Kenya.   However, 2 points:

1)   Right now, the most likely areas we would be employed in (Darfur) would be the arid/desert regions (I got that from watching Four Feathers   )

2)   If you look at a vegitation map, the area of Sudan that is actually tropical rainforest is really quite tiny (the sky blue areas around the Upper Nile regions).   For all intensive purposes, we can say the country is an arid region.


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## jrhume (23 Nov 2004)

Most of the possible operational area looks to be the kind of place where snakes have to carry canteens.

Sorry.  Old joke.  I'll go away now.

Jim


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## dutchie (23 Nov 2004)

re:the most likely areas we would be employed in (Darfur) would be the arid/desert regions. & For all intensive purposes, we can say the country is an arid region

Seen. Thanks.


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## Storm (23 Nov 2004)

I'd lean towards giving LGen Hillier more credit than assuming this is only for the immediate future, which would be working behind the curve. I don't know him or anything, but from what I've heard he seems to be a decent guy. Anyone think that, perhaps, when he said our troops are going to be working all over the place and we need to be able to go anywhere this was actually the logic at work? That he wants troops prepared for anywhere the politicians might send them? 

Ok, so Sudan may not be much of a jungle. What about potential problem areas in the future? Africa isn't exactly predictable, and there's a fair amount of jungle in places there. The pacific rim isn't devoid of potential hot spots either, nor is it short of jungle. Exchanging training with forces down south gives us a working relationship with some jungle SMEs that, with newly aquired training from us, might be willing to deploy with us. Training us to work in varied terrain makes military sense. Training them to do peacekeeping makes political sense.


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## Infanteer (23 Nov 2004)

Phillipines, Indonesia, Columbia, Southeast Asia, Central Africa.   Basically all the tropical rainforest jungles (what we are talking about here) exist in areas filled with strife and conflict.

General Hillier is right on the ball with bringing this back to the fore - it's a shame it wasn't done sooner.


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## pbi (23 Nov 2004)

rw4th: Actually, I'd much rather see an article in the media featuring the CLS talking about training soldiers to be soldiers, than:

a) rubbish about a "peacekeeping brigade";

b) another slagging; or

c) nothing.

As for the CLS we are quite lucky to have him. We have not had, to the best of my knowledge, a CLS with the same level of experience since Unification. He was the DComd of a US Corps before becoming CLS, and recently commanded ISAF V. (and is still well remembered by US forces here, as opposed to the present shower ISAF VI run by Eurocorps). I think we can expect good things from him: he has an op focus. Cheers.


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## Acorn (23 Nov 2004)

Some areas of Vancouver Island's raiforest have similarities with jungle. However, I doubt the fauna and temperatures are the same. As mentioned above, we used to do quite a bit of patrolling. If there's one thing I remember is how dark it is under the tree canopy.

<slap on yer helmets, the lantern is swinging>
On one ex we were issued Long Range Patrol Rations, essentially a dehydrated meal. I suppose no-one thought that the amount of water needed...nahh. Anyway, I remember fumbling around in the dark for my ration pack, getting the heat tab going under the canteen cup of water (the heat tab was the only light source) once it was semi-tepid, after about 30 minutes over the heat, I poured it into the pack of chili and mixed it up. Tasted not too bad 'till I scooped a spoonful of unmixed spices into my hungry gob. Dehydrated rations should not be reconstituted in the dark.

Same ex: section moving single file through the trees, deftly avoiding the jesus branches and roots by watching the "cats' eyes" on the combat cap of the man in front. Suddnely, a flurry of noise, and the sight of a pair of "cat's eyes" taking off into the trees. An owl had taken a liking to the hat of the man in front of me. He never did get that cap back.

Anyone trg at Rocky Point find a beat-up combat cap circa '85?

Final ex obsn: I seriously doubt that any tropical jungle sees rain at slightly above freezing. 
<you may take your helmets off>

Acorn


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## Bartok5 (24 Nov 2004)

Hah!  The "Deadwood Valley" stories sure bring back some memories.  Thankfully, most of them are good!   I pretty much grew up right there, serving from Res F recruit to Sgt with B Coy C Scot R in Nanaimo duriing the 1980s.  We did the majority of our training in the nasty "jungle-like" swampy areas of the Nanaimo Lakes, as well as on the forested mountainsides.  Lots of interesting times, and I can personally attest to everything that PBI says about it taking 3 hours to move 1 km cross-country at night underneath tree cover where it is so dark that NVGs don't work due to the utter absence of ambient light.  Quite literally "patrolling by braille".

Later on when I joined the Reg F and was Recce Pl Comd in 2 PPCLI, I deployed the platoon out to Nanaimo for a 2-week patrolling exercise.  Suffice it to say that the terrain provided some very unique challenges for a bunch of "high-speed" troops whose patrolling experience up to that point had mostly occurred in the comparatively wide open spaces of Manitoba and Germany.  They were quite taken aback by the sheer difficulty of operating in a fairly dense temperate rain forest. 

If you want to experience true jungle in Canada (albeit temperate, not tropical), take a trip to the West Coast of Vancouver Island in the vicinity of Pacific Rim National Park/Tofino/Uculet.  The undergrowth is so dense in places that you quite literally need a machete or a chainsaw to move through it.  Other areas provide the classic "towering tree canopy" experience, with perpetual twilight and fairly sparese (but lush) growth at ground level.   It is worth experiencing, particularly from a training perspective.

PBI - I still swear to this day that I wasn't "geographically disoriented" during that infamous 3 VP Patrol School back in 1984!!   Fenrich - bah!


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## Jungle (24 Nov 2004)

While I have no doubt that the forest in Deadwood Valley is difficult, it cannot be a substitute for actual jungle trg. There is more to the jungle than the vegetation. In order to learn how to operate in the jungle, you need to be exposed to the tropical climate, heavy monsoon rain etc... and the fauna. And that is the big one. I don't think there are nerve-toxic frogs in BC... but there are some in South-America !!!  
Now add the different varieties of snakes, spiders, millipedes, monkeys, flying insects, scorpions... and the diseases: malaria, dengue, leishmaniasis... 
80% of the tree varieties do not burn or float. That made building a fire during the survival phase a challenge, and building a raft after the POW thing a nightmare.
Everytime you are walking down a hill, there will be a stream or river to cross when you get to the bottom.
Everyone is carrying 20-25 lbs more in explosives and related accessories, chainsaw, gas for chainsaw etc.. in case someone is injured and has to be evacuated. In case of medevac or resupply, an area has to be cleared to permit a helicopter to lower it's hoist to the ground.
Sleeping in a hammock for a month, which you tear down every morning because you never go anywhere without your ruck, and there are no showers or laundry facilities.
That, in a few words, is partly what a jungle warfare course feels like; at least the one taught by the FFL in French Guyana...


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## JasonH (24 Nov 2004)

Jungle said:
			
		

> While I have no doubt that the forest in Deadwood Valley is difficult, it cannot be a substitute for actual jungle trg. There is more to the jungle than the vegetation. In order to learn how to operate in the jungle, you need to be exposed to the tropical climate, heavy monsoon rain etc... and the fauna. And that is the big one. I don't think there are nerve-toxic frogs in BC... but there are some in South-America !!!
> Now add the different varieties of snakes, spiders, millipedes, monkeys, flying insects, scorpions... and the diseases: malaria, dengue, leishmaniasis...
> 80% of the tree varieties do not burn or float. That made building a fire during the survival phase a challenge, and building a raft after the POW thing a nightmare.
> Everytime you are walking down a hill, there will be a stream or river to cross when you get to the bottom.
> ...



I'll kick myself now but I would love to go through that


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## Bartok5 (24 Nov 2004)

Hey Jungle,

No disputing anything that you have said.  The onmipresent humidity, weather, flora and fauna associated with a genuine tropical jungle environment undoubtedly present challenges which cannot be replicated by training time in the West Coast temperate rainforest.  I don't think you will find anyone here with a schmeck who has suggested otherwise.  I have spent a month in the Amazon basin during monsoon season, albeit as a tourist.  I can appreciate the difference.  Having said that, I can also state based on 6 years of personal military experience that the West Coast rainforest is nothing to be dismissed lightly.  This is particularly true during the winter months when the ceaseless rain/mist and near-zero temperatures conspire with the mountains, swamps and undergrowth to make life in the field a physically brutal, water-soaked and freezing version of hell on earth!   

Each environment presents its own challenges.  No different than suddenly having to operate at 10,000' elevation in an arid region where cactus meets the snow line.  Perhaps at the same time that we jump back on the band-wagon of tropical jungle training, we ought to rotate our line battalions through our own "school" in the BC rainforest?  At the end of the day, I am willing to bet that most Canadian soldiers have never served in that particular climate found within their own country.  You could make the same argument for conducting desert training in selected areas of the BC interior during the summer months.  No cobras, scorpions or camel spiders, but there are areas around Vernon and Kelowna that are most definitely "real" desert.  

Just some thoughts on recently overlooked training opportunities "at home"....


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## enfield (24 Nov 2004)

Jay Hunter said:
			
		

> I'll kick myself now but I would love to go through that



www.ambafrance-us.org/atoz/legion/index.asp

Go for it, they're recruiting now....  ;D


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## Jungle (24 Nov 2004)

Mark C, I absolutely agree. As I said I have no doubt the BC rainforest is difficult, and we are definately missing on good opportunities for trg our Infantry in "difficult terrain". We should certainly use that temperate rainforest, the Rockies, and some of our own deserts to conduct realistic trg here in Canada. I also think we do not train enough in the Arctic.
That said, apart from the mountains, we cannot become specialists by doing the trg here. We need to go where the expertise, and the genuine climate and terrain, are located.
Plus we usually get a couple of days R&R out of the deal !!!  :blotto:


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## Acorn (24 Nov 2004)

Mark C said:
			
		

> PBI - I still swear to this day that I wasn't "geographically disoriented" during that infamous 3 VP Patrol School back in 1984!!     Fenrich - bah!



Hmm, was that the one in Nov/Dec of '84? The two stories I related below were from my time with B Coy 3 PPCLI during the workups for that School. The reference to freezing and rain I made is from that time. I remember we had one set of NVGs for the platoon for a fighting ptl. As I was shivering wrapped in my poncho liner in the ptl base (we had a couple of hours and were told to get some rack) I watched the guy on security with the NVGs. The little red IR light was on, so all i could see was the red dot - it was the only point of reference under the canopy. Anyway, I watched in fascination as the dots started to move back and forth, and then drop rapidly to the ground. The guy was so exhausted he did a face-plant on the spot.

Later in the ptl we stumbled around in the dark for what seemed like hours 'till we hit a road. The ptl comd (our pl comd) must have thought "f*^& it, now we have a landmark" and that he could make up time by legging it down the road. Unfortunately he didn't take into account the physics of 28 guys in line astern hitting open terrain in succession. By the time the pl WO (WO "W" of 5 pl - he looked like Mr. Dressup) as tail end hit the road he was sprinting to keep up. Not often I saw him lose his temper, but he was furious that night.

Acorn


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## pbi (25 Nov 2004)

> PBI - I still swear to this day that I wasn't "geographically disoriented" during that infamous 3 VP Patrol School back in 1984!!   Fenrich - bah!



What? Scoundrel! You dare mock the UberFenny? Obviously you learned nothing from that great man!



> Later in the ptl we stumbled around in the dark for what seemed like hours 'till we hit a road. The ptl comd (our pl comd) must have thought "f*^& it, now we have a landmark" and that he could make up time by legging it down the road. Unfortunately he didn't take into account the physics of 28 guys in line astern hitting open terrain in succession. By the time the pl WO (WO "W" of 5 pl - he looked like Mr. Dressup) as tail end hit the road he was sprinting to keep up. Not often I saw him lose his temper, but he was furious that night.



Hmmmmm. The Platoon Commander wouldn't have been a certain small fellow who was frequently inebriated, would it?

Anyway-what does anybody who actually has mud on their boots think about our patrolling skill levels today? Cheers.


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## JasonH (25 Nov 2004)

Enfield said:
			
		

> www.ambafrance-us.org/atoz/legion/index.asp
> 
> Go for it, they're recruiting now....   ;D



To think I actually seriously thought about joining the FFL, but I was talken about the Jungle Warfare training.  If I were to join the FFL it'd be after a few yrs in the CF to get myself up to par with that kind of stuff.  Straight from highschool I don't think would be ones wisest choice, specially given the prestige and umm 'hardness' of the FFL.


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## Arctic Acorn (26 Nov 2004)

Yeah, I saw a pack of them once. They popped into Banka Luka to participate in anendurance race the Brits were hosting. 

They sat (I should say 'lounged') in Echos the night before, drinking bottle after bottle of wine, smoking their cigarettes backwards and doing the whole, "Pfft...life ees sheet." thing.

 :dontpanic:
A.A.


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## Recce41 (26 Nov 2004)

What Jungle training will be official? We have been doing it for yrs. We were down in Bragg/ Lachune in 92/93. A patrol out in the back forty, is darn close. 1 CDO was down in CA with the French a few times. Maybe be able to train in Belize, Malaysia. That would be a treat.


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## Jungle (26 Nov 2004)

Enfield said:
			
		

> www.ambafrance-us.org/atoz/legion/index.asp
> 
> Go for it, they're recruiting now....   ;D


He he he... try this link for an insider's look into the Legion. Click on 3 REI for info on Fr Guyana.
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/kbmag/pages_fr/framevuinterfr.htm
Reading French helps... but the pics are nice.


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## 2 Cdo (30 Nov 2004)

In Apr 1984 the 3rd battalion PPCLI sent a platoon of troops to Australia for 2 months in order to conduct Jungle Warfare. It took place up near Cairns and Tully in Nothern Queensland at their Jungle Warfare School. Without a doubt it was the best time I had in the army outside of the Airborne Regiment. I think it would be great to bring back this type of training which involves all your troops rather than mechanized crap which really only exercises your command eschelon.
I know some people will have a problem with me stating this but unless you've been a troopie sitting in the back of a carrier sleeping most of the exercise away you wouldn't understand!


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## Jungle (30 Nov 2004)

Hey 2 CDO, nice to see you here. Welcome to the site.
I was in Tully in 1999, during workup for East Timor. I didn't do the course there, as there was not enough time, but we went through some of the basics with them, and Recce Pl received extra trg in tracking techniques.
Tully is also where they filmed the first "Sniper" movie.


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