# Really Cool Fitness Initiative



## scaddie (22 Sep 2006)

My unit (I believe it's only my unit, I'm unsure though) just introduced a new fitness initiative to encourage our members to get into better shape.

For every five hours of physical activity (ie; running, rucksack march, weight lifting) you receive half of a days pay. We're required to fill out forms, and include a witness signature for each hour, which is understandable. I was told our CO thought of the idea, but I'm wondering if other units are trying the same type of program. It'll be really interesting to see the results of this, hopefully people don't abuse the system.


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## Blackadder1916 (22 Sep 2006)

Interesting.  A few questions though.

1.  Are there criteria/limitations for the location, type of activity, and witness?
2.  Does your CO have approval for this from higher?
3.  Has the CO already certified for payment to anyone?
4.  Is this CO still commanding?
5.  Has he or anyone else been arrested yet?

I applaud your CO's desire to increase the fitness level of his unit, however, (IIRC) when I was in a reserve unit, authorizing pay in this manner was not permitted, even if there was the budget available.


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## orange.paint (22 Sep 2006)

Before I begin I will just say I am really pleased to see the reserve force applying initiatives to improve a problem that has plagued the CF in general.

I do however see this as a corrupt system as you have explained it very vaguely.I personally see this working for a select few,while others who need a bit of pocket money "witness" each other working out for a few dollars for the weekend.Or does it have to be a senior officer who witnesses it.I see the problem arising where Sgt bloggind and cpl bloger attend assneck university together and write each other off.Corruption waiting to happen.

Also,as a member who puts in 3 hours plus a day outside of work I'm wondering where my extra days pay is.Jealously?Perhaps.But as a member of the CF should I not also receive monetary gains where others are receiving?

My third question is where are these funds coming from?As you said you believe this is only your unit taking part in this.I have been off for 10 weeks so I cannot say if this is taking place in the regular force.

I understand reserve units usually don't have access to base gyms and PSP staff.But I do believe if this is taking place it has to be closely administered.I also believe this should be available to all CF personell.Because right now I'm looking at if I went to the gym for 5 hrs in the morning and went on a 30 km ruck in the afternoon I could get two days pay per day! So why even go regular force?

Also is there a cap on how much you can do a week?Your post was kind of lacking in the detail department so I'll wait to rant until we can clarify some of this.


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## Blunt Object (22 Sep 2006)

It does sound like a good idea but I think it's kind of rediculous that it has resorted to almost bribing people to stay in shape, it's required as part of the job and life style. If there is going to be some sort of restitution for being in shape maybe they should hold fitness tests on a regular basis and offer some "gucci" kit or something of the sort once in a while for the top preformers.

  Thats just my 2 cents.


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## dglad (22 Sep 2006)

An interesting idea, but as has been pointed out, one that requires a fair bit of due diligence to ensure that resources are being managed properly.

Actually, I've always seen this as relatively simple (my poor infantry brain, you know).  The only reason that fitness is important is so that members can do their jobs.  If they can't, then a performance  issue exists.  If Cpl Bloggins can have the C6 where I want on the battlefield, when I want it there, and operate it effectively once it is, then he is doing his job.  Implicit in this is that he's "fit", not to mention that he can effectively operate a C6, knows his drills, how to engage targets, etc.  If, on the other hand, he collapses into a quivering heap 100m past the LD or, somewhat less extreme, can't get the gun into a fire position when it's needed there, or is too bagged to do anything with it when he does, then there's a problem with job performance.  A poor level of fitness might be the CAUSE, but the ISSUE is performance.  At that point, Bloggins is subject to administrative action intended to get him to correct his inadequate performance or, at the extreme, cause him to be released from the CF.  Such correction may involve getting fit, and there may be things the CF can do to assist, but the onus will be on Bloggins himself.

The implication is that members must be fit simply as a pre-requisite to do their jobs.  It's a truism that class A Reservists may suffer a handicap in not having fitness facilities readily available, but it's hardly insurmountable; one can quite easily stay reasonably fit without a membership to some gym or fitness centre.  It takes some additional effort for which there currently may not be compensation (and don't get me wrong, I'm all for finding some sort of formal way of compensating class A soldiers for fitness training).  But lack of such compensation should hardly constitute an excuse for not being adequately fit for one's job.


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## orange.paint (22 Sep 2006)

Yep we all understand why fitness is important etc. That isnt the point.
The point is
A reserve unit may/or may not be paying their troops to workout.(5 hrs=1 day pay)

Who else is getting it?
Where are the funds coming from?
How they heck can they regulate this?
Where do I get the paperwork to start making twice the pay?


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## Haggis (22 Sep 2006)

Blunt Object said:
			
		

> If there is going to be some sort of restitution for being in shape maybe they should hold fitness tests on a regular basis and offer some "gucci" kit or something of the sort once in a while for the top preformers.



I did exactly that in my Rifle Company.  Worked like a charm to the point that I'm doing it again this year.


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## Centurian1985 (22 Sep 2006)

Scaddie said:
			
		

> My unit (I believe it's only my unit, I'm unsure though) just introduced a new fitness initiative to encourage our members to get into better shape.
> 
> For every five hours of physical activity (ie; running, rucksack march, weight lifting) you receive half of a days pay. We're required to fill out forms, and include a witness signature for each hour, which is understandable. I was told our CO thought of the idea, but I'm wondering if other units are trying the same type of program. It'll be really interesting to see the results of this, hopefully people don't abuse the system.



Where was that when I was still in!!? A could clear a couple extra days pay every month with that type of perk...  Otherwise, never heard of that type of incentive program before.


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## Blunt Object (22 Sep 2006)

This is a little off topic of the thread but can reservists claim a gym pass ( such as the YMCA, Family fitness etc...) on their taxes?? I've been informed we can write off things like razors or insoles so would it not be the same for a gym pass to make it more feasible for reservists to get to the gym?


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## pylon (22 Sep 2006)

rcac_011 said:
			
		

> Also,as a member who puts in 3 hours plus a day outside of work I'm wondering where my extra days pay is.Jealously?Perhaps.But as a member of the CF should I not also receive monetary gains where others are receiving?



You're right, class A reservists get all the perks....  bastards.   :blotto:


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## dglad (22 Sep 2006)

rcac_011 said:
			
		

> Yep we all understand why fitness is important etc. That isnt the point.
> The point is
> A reserve unit may/or may not be paying their troops to workout.(5 hrs=1 day pay)
> 
> ...



No, that's precisely the point.  It shouldn't be necessary to resort to measures like this, which , as you allude, are just problems waiting to happen (as you say, "how the heck can they regulate this?").  If soldiers are  going to get compensation for fitness training, it should be done consistently, fairly and with all the appropriate checks and balances.  Otherwise, it risks becoming a misuse of public funds and resources.


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## 17thRecceSgt (22 Sep 2006)

rcac_011 said:
			
		

> Before I begin I will just say I am really pleased to see the reserve force applying initiatives to improve a problem that has plagued the CF in general.


+1



> I do however see this as a corrupt system as you have explained it very vaguely.I personally see this working for a select few,while others who need a bit of pocket money "witness" each other working out for a few dollars for the weekend.Or does it have to be a senior officer who witnesses it.I see the problem arising where Sgt bloggind and cpl bloger attend assneck university together and write each other off.Corruption waiting to happen.


Nothing is perfect, and something is better than nothing.  Dishonest people are dishonest, but you can't use that as a realistic reason to stop it for everyone can you?  How would that apply to say, the ranges?  "Well sir, one of the troops might steal live ammo from the range, so I think we shouldn't take live ammo.  Someone might be dishonest and take some."  If they sign on a goverment document for monies they are not entitled to and get caught, there is a charge under the NDA they can be nailed with.  



> Also,as a member who puts in 3 hours plus a day outside of work I'm wondering where my extra days pay is.Jealously?Perhaps.But as a member of the CF should I not also receive monetary gains where others are receiving?


You do.  Its called your monthly salary I think.  And the other benefits a Reg Frce member has over Reserve Frce members.  



> My third question is where are these funds coming from?As you said you believe this is only your unit taking part in this.I have been off for 10 weeks so I cannot say if this is taking place in the regular force.


If it is just his unit, I would say his CO is using the funds from his budget.  I think Reserve Units are funded based on their unit strength and roughly 32 days pay for each person on strength.  Something like that.  Aside from Mandated trng, the CO has the say over where/when his/her funds are expended.



> I understand reserve units usually don't have access to base gyms and PSP staff.But I do believe if this is taking place it has to be closely administered.I also believe this should be available to all CF personell.Because right now I'm looking at if I went to the gym for 5 hrs in the morning and went on a 30 km ruck in the afternoon I could get two days pay per day! So why even go regular force?


You know full well that as a Reg Frce member you are paid 24/7, and Reservists on Class A are not.  As far was your last comment, heck all you have to do is CT to the Reserve Force, to the originators Reserve unit and you too can have this outstanding benefit.  

Let's not let this degrade into a Reserve-Reg Force nit-picking thread.  It will get locked before you can say MODS.  Remember if you want to come to the table with a problem, its preferable to bring a solution or two along with you.   ;D

It appears that a CO of a Reserve Unit is doing something to encourage physical fitness in his/her soldiers, and I think that is a good thing.  Its really that simple if you want to let it be...

my 2 cents..

MRM


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## orange.paint (22 Sep 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> +1
> Nothing is perfect, and something is better than nothing.  Dishonest people are dishonest, but you can't use that as a realistic reason to stop it for everyone can you?  How would that apply to say, the ranges?  "Well sir, one of the troops might steal live ammo from the range, so I think we shouldn't take live ammo.  Someone might be dishonest and take some."  If they sign on a government document for monies they are not entitled to and get caught, there is a charge under the NDA they can be nailed with.
> You do.  Its called your monthly salary I think.  And the other benefits a Reg Frce member has over Reserve Frce members.



I disagree.Troops going to a range are under supervision of the RSO and down to the ARSO's on the mound.They are supervised and warned at the end of this activity that "taking live ammo from the range....service offence.. etc."I'm not throwing a knife at our reserve guys I'm basically throwing it at humanity in general.I know that if this was implemented in regular force units Cpl fatty and SGT bellyman would be bringing in the free bucks.Humans like free stuff period.And why work for something when you can get it for free?That's humanity.

As for my monthly salary I agree.I am paid by the people of Canada to keep fit and defend this country with my peers.However I do usually work out on my own time not during the army's time.My basic peeve is that unless there is a cap on these funds (i.e 1 hr a day for 5 days) a member who is active in a hobby like mine of marathons etc can make a days pay without ever donning the green suit.



			
				Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> . Let's not let this degrade into a Reserve-Reg Force nit-picking thread.  It will get locked before you can say MODS.  Remember if you want to come to the table with a problem, its preferable to bring a solution or two along with you.



The reason I didn't bring a solution was from the lack of information posted by the original guy.My solution would be:

Everyday at a certain time (concensus needed to find when most people can attend) LT/CAPT stands outside designated armouries and takes roll call.People work out for 1 hr,supervised and get paid.

Theres also that problem with class A guys getting compensation when working out alone.So there is my idea to solve this.

It all sounds a little weird to me,more info needed.


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## orange.paint (22 Sep 2006)

dglad said:
			
		

> No, that's precisely the point.  It shouldn't be necessary to resort to measures like this, which , as you allude, are just problems waiting to happen (as you say, "how the heck can they regulate this?").  If soldiers are  going to get compensation for fitness training, it should be done consistently, fairly and with all the appropriate checks and balances.  Otherwise, it risks becoming a misuse of public funds and resources.



+1


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## 17thRecceSgt (22 Sep 2006)

rcac_011 said:
			
		

> It all sounds a little weird to me,more info needed.



Agreed, and FWIW, I don't think its perfect, or maybe even practical, and there is lots of room for misuse, but I do applaud the CO who is trying to do something.

One small point.  IF Sgt Fatty was signing for all this pay, and not getting in shape, wouldn't it be obvious?  

Good point on the cap, there should be a "to a maximum of" or some other control measure in place, maybe there is.

I still like the idea that something is being done, its a step in the right direction.  I know in our Bde, you can't order a Class A reservist to do the EXPRES test, but a reservist can not be put on ANY Class B employment until such time as they DO complete the EXPRES.  Its not perfect, but its what our Cmdr can do at this time.

MRM


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## scoutfinch (22 Sep 2006)

rcac_011 said:
			
		

> The reason I didn't bring a solution was from the lack of information posted by the original guy.My solution would be:
> 
> Everyday at a certain time (concensus needed to find when most people can attend) LT/CAPT stands outside designated armouries and takes roll call.People work out for 1 hr,supervised and get paid.



While you won't find a more ardent supporter of organized fitness for reservists, the problem with the approach quoted above is liability.  If a reservist injures him/herself while doing PT, they may well be putting their civilian livelihood at risk and the CF would be left holding the bag for their financial losses as well as rehabilitation expense (for which reservists do not have an insurance programme or DND health care)..  Moreover, there is a greater risk for the CF to be entertaining pensionable injury claims should reservists be conducting PT without trained supervisors.  Most important is the fact that the *once per week fitness regime* has a potential for injury as members aren't always as fit as they should be...  

The PT issue is one of risk management for the CF.  Unfortunately, too many reservists take the *PT on your own time* as *PT at no time*.  

As an aside, can you imagine completing Basic Training without any PT??? Well, due to the new policies, I did!  I am lucky as I am a runner in my civie life but I can say with certainty that the lack of PT reflected on a number of reservists' performance on CAP this summer.  That being said, there were a few that were in OUTSTANDING shape but they certainly weren't the majority.


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## orange.paint (22 Sep 2006)

scoutfinch said:
			
		

> Moreover, there is a greater risk for the CF to be entertaining pensionable injury claims should reservists be conducting PT without trained supervisors.



Although I know reserves sometimes don't take mod 1 PLQ which is PT instruction,Im sure there are plenty of qualified guys in the reserve.I know on my mod 2-5 which was militia run in Nova Scotia the crse warrant and officer done PT with us every morning.(I did however put on 10 pounds.)



			
				scoutfinch said:
			
		

> As an aside, can you imagine completing Basic Training without any PT??? Well, due to the new policies, I did!  I am lucky as I am a runner in my civie life but I can say with certainty that the lack of PT reflected on a number of reservists' performance on CAP this summer.  That being said, there were a few that were in OUTSTANDING shape but they certainly weren't the majority.



Thats amasing.Absolutely amasing. :
(not directed at yourself just at "policies")

Now if I understand correctly your Basic Training was a reserve course.Where you could have been supervised for PT every morning.
How the heck could your course not do PT while this regiment in Nova Scotia is paying pers to work out in their off time!!!

Im totally lost,does this make sense to anyone else?


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## Trinity (22 Sep 2006)

scoutfinch said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, too many reservists take the *PT on your own time* as *PT at no time*.



HEY... I resemble that remark!!!  :


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## 17thRecceSgt (22 Sep 2006)

I spent the summer of 2001 in Aldershot as Crse WO for the Res Armd QL3.

No word of a lie, we were NOT allowed to run during PT.  

AND...

before the troops showed up, one of the Inf crse staff complete went for a run one morning.

The young Lt got 17 extras.

 :

We did, however, form up in Battalion in Mass before going for our 15 minute walk.

Thats the worst I have ever seen it.

But I digress.

In line with your question, no it makes no sense.  None at all.

I think things are changing, people are taking some measures to get their soldiers fit, and sooner or later, its bound to lead to some improvement.  I hope.


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## paracowboy (22 Sep 2006)

Hey, Reservists, would this work? Just run a PT test every month. Something basic and simple, like the Para PT test. You pass, you get this extra money that's getting tossed around. You fail, you get beasted for an hour. And it's mandatory. Everybody in the unit has to do it once a month.

To make sure it's not being played with, it gets run by Reg Force pers. There would be volunteers. That I can guarantee. A chance to laugh at fatties, and beast people? There'd be volunteers.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (22 Sep 2006)

Hey, I even know a certain civi who would volunteer.........


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## 17thRecceSgt (22 Sep 2006)

Well, I am sure it would be fun to do and watch, not sure if it would work though.

Let's put this whole Reserve PT issue into perspective here, if I may.

My unit is currently doing the workup trng (for 5 weeks) for the BFT.  Our CO ( a Reg Frce Cmbt Arms type) has not made it mandatory, for either Reg Frce or Class B folks.  He could have.  He didn't.  Why?  I don't know, it hurts my head when I try to understand it.  

So the ones out there are the ones that think EVERYONE should be doing it, while the lamo's are back in the HQ drinking coffee and jawing off.   :

Problem????  

The whole thing always goes back to this liability issue.  I am not sure when this came up.  I was looking at my UER, and noticed this entry on one of my CF 743Bs

"FMC Fitness Test (Passed) 08 Oct 92.  I was curious so went back in time, and yup, that was a Thursday.  We came in on a normal training night, rucked up, and did the FMC Fitness Test in then CFB Summerside.  

I don't remember anyone dieing.  I do remember the less fit folks who didn't make it to training that night for some reason.

I don't know if there is, was or ever will be the DS Solution to the Reserve PT issue.

Reference the extra money, I am going to ask about this at work, stuff like that you usually hear about at the HQ.


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## orange.paint (22 Sep 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> Hey, Reservists, would this work? Just run a PT test every month. Something basic and simple, like the Para PT test. You pass, you get this extra money that's getting tossed around. You fail, you get beasted for an hour. And it's mandatory. Everybody in the unit has to do it once a month.
> 
> To make sure it's not being played with, it gets run by Reg Force pers. There would be volunteers. That I can guarantee. A chance to laugh at fatties, and beast people? There'd be volunteers.



+1
All this is speculation of course as some poster appeared and vaguely said "my CO is giving me pay at home for PT" or words to that effect.Lets get verification

I get to see the armoured school do PT this week during the AFM and 13km.I'm dying with the flu and cant wait to kick the crap out of some of those people.I see my share of fatties here,hence why I'm trying to vacate the premises.


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## scoutfinch (22 Sep 2006)

Current policy is that there will be NO PT on weekend courses (ie. BMQ) or courses of less than a certain time frame (particulars of which I am uncertain but can state that courses that are less than one week definitely do not have PT).

It is policy that PT WILL NOT be done.  Trust me, I asked.  My section practically begged but our course officer said no, contrary to his wishes but consistent with his orders.


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## paracowboy (22 Sep 2006)

scoutfinch said:
			
		

> Current policy is that there will be NO PT on weekend courses (ie. BMQ) or courses of less than a certain time frame (particulars of which I am uncertain but can state that courses that are less than one week definitely do not have PT).
> 
> It is policy that PT WILL NOT be done.  Trust me, I asked.  My section practically begged but our course officer said no, contrary to his wishes but consistent with his orders.


somebody call Rick. Does he know about this?


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## orange.paint (22 Sep 2006)

This is right up there with men wearing paternal combats....

I will start my webpage of fatties yet...


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## scoutfinch (22 Sep 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> somebody call Rick. Does he know about this?



Trust me, para... I tried that argument already.... unsuccessfully.


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## 17thRecceSgt (22 Sep 2006)

Well, I have never seen this policy in writing.  Oddly, I don't know of anyone who actually has seen this policy, but it apparantly exists.

I remember SLC in Gagetown.  No PT on the course.  Reason?  "There is no time".

My 6B in Wainwright.  No PT.  Reason? "The schedule is too crammed".

Things got to change.  That I do know.

How?  That I do not know.  First off, get rid of this "Resevists will break if they do PT" policy.

Same consequences for all CF members for failing the EXPRES test.  BFT becomes mandatory for all Reg/Res Class B in Army/CLS units.  Coverage for Reservists that are on PT that has been authorized by the CoC?  Something has to change, we are tieing our own friggin' hands here.


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## Lear (22 Sep 2006)

As another note on COs encouraging PT within Regiment, the CO for the Regiment I parade with is working on implementing a sports night once a week, costs are covered to rent equipment and we the troops get together to have some good fun and PT. No extra pay given to us but allot of people are looking forward to starting the program, and why not?


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## scoutfinch (22 Sep 2006)

I think that the idea is great but wait for it to come to a screeching halt as soon as someone is injured and their civilian disability insurer refuses a lost wage claim because they were on military duty.

Then your CO has a big problem on his hands.


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## Haggis (22 Sep 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> Hey, Reservists, would this work? Just run a PT test every month. Something basic and simple, like the Para PT test. You pass, you get this extra money that's getting tossed around. You fail, you get beasted for an hour. And it's mandatory. Everybody in the unit has to do it once a month.



Before this degenerates into more Reg/Res pokey-chest, here's my desperate attempt to drag this thread back on topic:

Last year I planned and executed a fitness challenge for my Company.  I conducted a modified Cooper's Test (no bench press) on a training night.  It took about an hour.  Thinking it was a one-shot deal, the troops put forth maximal effort.  Then, once done, I announced that the troops would be re-tested in 12 weeks AND that the Regimental association had donated a number of cool prizes for the most improved in each category.  Then I gave each soldier access to the Army Fitness Manual and some very fit NCOs and turned them loose.

As an added incentive, in order to qualify for these prizes (GPS, fighting/field knives etc.), no matter how good your improvement, I tied attendance at two major exercises to eligibility.  In the event of a tie in any one category, my tie-breaker would be overall attendance based on my parade states.

Every single soldier improved, some by an impressive amount.  How much did it cost the unit?  Nada.

This spring I will do it again.  However, in order to initially qualify, your scores must be at least  equal to your closing results last year.

If anyone wants more details, PM me and I will provide them.


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## paracowboy (23 Sep 2006)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Before this degenerates into more Reg/Res pokey-chest,


I don't do that. You should know that by now. I've handed out smackin's to people on this site for doing it. Both Components. I'm an equal-opportunity ass-kicker.

It's a question. Would it work? I have no idea how things work in the Reserve world, remember? You had to school me on some stuff a few months ago. Also fitness-related. I asked about the viability of Armouries purchasing their own fitness equipment.


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## COBRA-6 (23 Sep 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> Also fitness-related. I asked about the viability of Armouries purchasing their own fitness equipment.



There are provisions for this in the budget process, "vote 5 funds", IIRC. The Irish bought big whack of pugil stick eqpt a few years back, helmets, gloves, sticks, chest protectors, jocks, mats... excellent training! All it takes is some planning and effort.


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## orange.paint (23 Sep 2006)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Last year I planned and executed a fitness challenge for my Company.  I conducted a .  Every single soldier improved, some by an impressive amount.  How much did it cost the unit?  Nada.



This is clearly showing the benefit of having senior NCO's who are fitness orientated.The problem stems at your level and shadders anything below it.Unfortunately in many units this is the case.I have been fortunate to have a few snr NCO' who actually gave a care about the army,and their subordinates.And I have benefited tremendously.

We also did the modified coopers test as I have mentioned before.Problem being we knew we would be tested each month.And I will not confirm or deny that our senior people told us "not to push it too hard the first time" and "leave room for improvement so the CO will be happy with results."

As I alluded to prior its all about humanity.(I put on 6 pounds of FAT during 10 wkpig out/drinking enjoying my life leave parental leave and am kicking my ass around the block now.Although I still worked out it could not cut the copious amounts of deep fried toast etc that my mother insisted I ate due to looking starved.

Haggis:I will be interested in seeing where these troop stand now compared to their previous year (if they retained) and where they stand at the end of this year.

And lets face it some regular guys will bitch and complain about res class A not doing PT when a large number of reg and class b guys visit the gym as regularly as a crewman passes up dessert in the hide.It isn't a reserve problem its a army problem.


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## paracowboy (23 Sep 2006)

COBRA-6 said:
			
		

> There are provisions for this in the budget process, "vote 5 funds", IIRC.


that's what Haggis explained to me, as well. But, he said that most times, the money gets spent on hockey sticks and such, as opposed to dumbells, kettlebells, or other such thingies.


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## COBRA-6 (23 Sep 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> that's what Haggis explained to me, as well. But, he said that most times, the money gets spent on hockey sticks and such, as opposed to dumbells, *kettlebells*, or other such thingies.



I was recently introduced to these by a kettlebell instructor, incredibly versatile and effective! Plus they don't take up an entire room...


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## Haggis (23 Sep 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> I don't do that. You should know that by now.



I wasn't singling you out specifically, Para, your post just gave me a good segue into mine.

(Yes, I "used" you.  Was it good? )



			
				paracowboy said:
			
		

> that's what Haggis explained to me, as well. But, he said that most times, the money gets spent on hockey sticks and such, as opposed to dumbells, kettlebells, or other such thingies.



The best PT kit the Army issued is a ruck, boots and an NCO to show you how they work together.


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## paracowboy (23 Sep 2006)

in most cases you can achieve the same aim with dumbells, if you don't have kettlebells available. A chunk of metal weighing 'x' pounds is still a chunk of metal weighing 'x' pounds, no matter the shape. But, people get caught up in the idea of "well this is a kettlebell workout" or "dumbells are for bodybuilding". It's mostly perspective.

You see a guy doing whatever with dumbells in a picture, that's what you assume they're for, same with kettlebells.


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## paracowboy (23 Sep 2006)

Haggis said:
			
		

> (Yes, I "used" you.  Was it good? )


I've had worse. Don't get a swelled head or anything, but you weren't the worst I've had. Or been had by, as the case may be.


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## orange.paint (23 Sep 2006)

Seeming this girl who originally posted seems to be from the west nova scotia regiment in Aldershot,maybe someone else from the unit can shine light on the topic?If its even true.

Maybe I'll give up working out and claim my Inuit blood has me fattening up for the cold months and Ill be slim by spring.


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## Haggis (23 Sep 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> I've had worse. Don't get a swelled head or anything, but you weren't the worst I've had. Or been had by, as the case may be.




... I think we're straying again (not in a biblical sense, though)

The idea of paying Class "A" Reservists to do PT is, in my opinion, off base.  We pay Reg F and Reserve Class "B" and "C' members, give them access to the best equipment and time away from work and we still don't get the required/desired results.  (Doubt this? drop by the NDHQ remedial PT class someday.)

What we need is MOTIVATION, GUIDANCE and REWARD.

"Motivation" comes from making training physically and mentally demanding to the point where you don't  truly enjoy it unless you are fit.  It also comes from having fit and intelligent leaders who know how to set the bar and raise it when appropriate.

"Guidance" comes from the fine folks at CFPSA, fit and competent NCOs and Officers (not egotistic gazelles, but really competent and mature leaders) who provide advice, tips and, above all, act as role models.

"Reward" comes from seeing something tangible for your effort, be it a GPS from the Association  or a coveted slot on Basic Para.


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## orange.paint (23 Sep 2006)

Haggis said:
			
		

> "Motivation" comes from making training physically and mentally demanding to the point where you don't  truly enjoy it unless you are fit.  It also comes from having fit and intelligent leaders who know how to set the bar and raise it when appropriate.


I believe PT should be challenging but attainable first.Allow the personnel to enjoy the pt,therefor wanting to improve.I've seen PT that was geared towards the top 3 pers where only the top 3 guys finished (destroys morale and thus motivation).And have seen PT that was geared towards the bottom 3 where it is not benefiting 80% of the group and embarrassing the bottom 3.PT IMHO should always be a personal thing done alone.Only you know how to improve yourself.Although I could say lets beast the bottom 3 till they quit.We have to look at these pers as potential fit soldiers and work for them IF they show the want and desire to improve.




			
				Haggis said:
			
		

> "Guidance" comes from the fine folks at CFPSA, fit and competent NCOs and Officers (not egotistic gazelles, but really competent and mature leaders) who provide advice, tips and, above all, act as role models.



I believe these "egotistic gazelles" are more or less aggravated at the current system,and sick of those who cannot help themselves when all opportunity's are provided for them to improve.
....I wouldn't know any of these people...wait I try to emulate them.I don't believe fitness has anything to do with ones career,at least where I work.Egotistic gazelles (or springboks);these guys also instruct civilian side to meet like minded people,and organise base wide fitness programs to BENIFIT other troops.Its all how you view things.Some may see Sgt soandso as a "Greek god" while others take note and follow suit.Its all opinion of what a soldier is to you.Some believe they are fit well turned out smart troops.While others think a pudgy smart guy does just as good etc.And I believe it all stems back to who you emulated,and who you promised yourself you would never become.



			
				Haggis said:
			
		

> "Reward" comes from seeing something tangible for your effort, be it a GPS from the Association  or a coveted slot on Basic Para.



Rewards are rare in the army.Fitness is rarely looked at in compar assion to "time in" etc.I could give example of obese people placed on courses that fit guys would kill for,only cause they had more "time in".This is where a good SNR NCO steps in,and a good troop mcpl recommends who he thinks will complete the job better/reward hard working troops.

What were the results of last years testing?Or the top test results?


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## 17thRecceSgt (23 Sep 2006)

rcac_011 said:
			
		

> It isn't a reserve problem its a army problem.



Heck, I'll take that one step further.  Its a CF problem.  And the CDS is trying to solve it.

August, the CLS came to LFAA for a conference, whatever it was called.  He, at some point in time during this period here, took all the attendee's out and did PT.

Last week was our COS Conf.  Guess what the COS did?  Took all the attendee's from all our sub-units and lead them on PT.  First one I have seen them do that.  Should have always.  It seems the CLS is leading from the front in support of the CDS direction, and the teen-agers are starting to do what Ma and Pa want.

Now, if only my CO would order all the Reg and Class B's onto our BFT training, well.  While the new additions wouldn't be smiling Tuesday with their rucks, TVs and helmets on, I know me and few others sure would be.

Its a CF problem.  And it won't change over night.  BZ to those doing their part as leaders to change it.  Creativity like Haggis's is just what the doctor ordered for the Res side, where our own policies are whats holding us back.


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## 17thRecceSgt (23 Sep 2006)

rcac_011 said:
			
		

> Seeming this girl who originally posted seems to be from the west nova scotia regiment in Aldershot,maybe someone else from the unit can shine light on the topic?If its even true.
> 
> Maybe I'll give up working out and claim my Inuit blood has me fattening up for the cold months and Ill be slim by spring.



I am good friends with the WNSR Trng WO, I see him at the Stad gym every Sunday.  So, by Sunday, I should be able to confirm.

However, I do know the CO of that unit, and he is ex-PPCLI ( I believe he was a Maj when he left the Reg's) and a no nonsense type.  I could see that CO backing a plan like that, and the obvious and "army politics" reasons why.


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## Haggis (23 Sep 2006)

rcac_011 said:
			
		

> What were the results of last years testing?Or the top test results?



I don't have the results here at home, but the winner in the run category knocked over 2 1/2 minutes off his time.  The push-up winner added, IIRC, 18 reps.  The overall winner of a brand new high-speed Garmin GPS didn't have the best score in everything (he tied in two categories) but had 100% attendance at regularly sheduled unit training plus addtional points for filling "above and beyond" tasks.

The coolest things about this is that the troops were pretty keen thoroughout (you'd see them running/rucking around the city) and not a dime  of "training" money was spent to make this happen.

On the subject of rewards, the four soldiers with the best attendance in the first half of the training year (Sep to Dec) were awarded sweet seats to an Ottawa Senators home game, plus parking passes, donated by our new honouray LCol.


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## dglad (23 Sep 2006)

Haggis said:
			
		

> I don't have the results here at home, but the winner in the run category knocked over 2 1/2 minutes off his time.  The push-up winner added, IIRC, 18 reps.  The overall winner of a brand new high-speed Garmin GPS didn't have the best score in everything (he tied in two categories) but had 100% attendance at regularly sheduled unit training plus addtional points for filling "above and beyond" tasks.
> 
> The coolest things about this is that the troops were pretty keen thoroughout (you'd see them running/rucking around the city) and not a dime  of "training" money was spent to make this happen.
> 
> On the subject of rewards, the four soldiers with the best attendance in the first half of the training year (Sep to Dec) were awarded sweet seats to an Ottawa Senators home game, plus parking passes, donated by our new honouray LCol.



I applaud this.  You're very fortunate that your unit has the support of a proactive and, obviously, well-off HLCol and others, as well as access to a major sporting venue, attendance at which would certainly be a high-value prize.

But what about the small unit in rural Canada somewhere, whose HCol may be a retired Mayor on a municipal pension and is located hundreds of kms from the nearest NHL fanchise?

I, too, offered local (and non-publicly funded) incentives for fitness and attendance for class A Reservists as a coy comd and CO.  But they're not the solution and, in fact, their existence only highlights the problem.  Our soldiers system-wide deserve a fair and accessible way of becoming and remaining fit.  Until that's provided, the ONLY such incentive is that a soldier must meet a certain, minimum standard of PERFORMANCE (generally expressed as IBTS).  Fitness is one aspect of that, but so is attendance at training, knowledge of the trade, general mil skills, and so on.  If any of these are lacking, it constitutes a performance issue and can/should be dealt with administratively (see my earlier post about Bloggins and his C6).  That approach is something we CAN enact across the system, now, until something more comprehensive comes along.


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## Fishbone Jones (23 Sep 2006)

rcac_011 said:
			
		

> My solution would be:
> 
> Everyday at a certain time (concensus needed to find when most people can attend) LT/CAPT stands outside designated armouries and takes roll call.People work out for 1 hr,supervised and get paid.
> 
> ...



Won't work. Many have to travel more than an hour round trip. For 1 hr training? Many have school, work shift work, etc. An organized 1 hr PT session is doomed to failure before it starts. Also, why a Lt/ Capt?


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## Haggis (23 Sep 2006)

dglad said:
			
		

> I applaud this.  You're very fortunate that your unit has the support of a proactive and, obviously, well-off HLCol and others, as well as access to a major sporting venue, attendance at which would certainly be a high-value prize.



My OC and I were quite willing to cough up for a prize until the, at that time"soon-to-be", honourary stepped forward without being asked.



			
				dglad said:
			
		

> But what about the small unit in rural Canada somewhere, whose HCol may be a retired Mayor on a municipal pension and is located hundreds of kms from the nearest NHL fanchise?



Every unit has SOMETHING nearby!  It doesn't have to be an NHL game, and for the record we are over 100 km from ScotiaBank Place.  (Even big city units have similar problems.  Who would really want to go to a Leafs Game? :warstory   It just has to be something that appeals to the troops.A stock car race?  Rock concert?   Why not grab corporate sponsors (hit up your chamber of commerce)?



			
				dglad said:
			
		

> I, too, offered local (and non-publicly funded) incentives for fitness and attendance for class A Reservists as a coy comd and CO.  But they're not the solution and, in fact, their existence only highlights the problem.



True.



			
				dglad said:
			
		

> Our soldiers system-wide deserve a fair and accessible way of becoming and remaining fit.



But at the expense of what else? Range time?  PLQ vacancies?  Not in my Company, sir!  Why?  Because I and my officers, WOs and NCOs beleive strongly that physical fitness is the ONE SOLDIER SKILL that is 100% within the soldier's ability to improve witout the need for any fancy equipment, facilites or specialized training and supervision.



			
				dglad said:
			
		

> Until that's provided, the ONLY such incentive is that a soldier must meet a certain, minimum standard of PERFORMANCE (generally expressed as IBTS).  Fitness is one aspect of that, but so is attendance at training, knowledge of the trade, general mil skills, and so on.  If any of these are lacking, it constitutes a performance issue and can/should be dealt with administratively (see my earlier post about Bloggins and his C6).  That approach is something we CAN enact across the system, now, until something more comprehensive comes along.



Hopefully the release and implementation of DAOD 5023-2 (Physical Fitness) will go a long way to encouraging and protecting Class A Reservists to do good, gainful PT.  Until then we in the Chain of Command must continue to improvise, adapt and overcome this obstacle.


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## orange.paint (23 Sep 2006)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Won't work. Many have to travel more than an hour round trip. For 1 hr training? Many have school, work shift work, etc. An organized 1 hr PT session is doomed to failure before it starts. Also, why a Lt/ Capt?



It could be any member IMHO,but leaders lead and I just put those ranks down as examples.(Usually its the TP WO who runs PT.)

I also suggested earlier maybe a consensus would be needed to find out when the most people could attend.Lets face it,in the world of A class reserves no one can guarantee time off from civilian jobs/school every night.Sometimes planning for ARCON months in advance poses its problems.

I personally don't agree with the "witness" idea posed by the original poster.It is a corrupt system waiting to happen.Organise something with local gyms as in a check in register. 
One extra days pay earned from this "work-out fund" could easily pay for gym fee's for at
least 6 months.

Why not take these funds and buy troops membership to local gyms?

I Know that if the CO of the armoured school said "I got a pocket full of cash here,if you and your buddy work out sign this form and receive money."Amazingly every troop would be working out EVERY night,and somehow not getting in better shape.

Unfortunately to perform this excellent initiative not all personell will be able to be involved.It has to be organised,it has to be closely monitored.Besides a register at a local gym or a roll call of sorts I personally don't see it working.

disclaimer: It's not directed at class A guys,I just personally don't see it working due to human nature in general.And from experiences with regular force soldiers.


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## muskrat89 (23 Sep 2006)

> Why not take these funds and buy troops membership to local gyms



I've been out of the "system" for awhile, but advocated this, even way back when. I understand that perhaps the funding is not available now, but maybe this is what the Reserves need to push for. Part of the deal with local health clubs could be an attendance record, sent back to the Unit. In addition, most of those clubs provide a trainer as part of the cost, so the workout would be surpervised to a degree. They also offer a wide variety of options.

There's a ton of potential incentives as well, from (hypothetically speaking) tax breaks to patriotism. I think it just needs so creative thinking and effort to work out a good system.


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## GAP (23 Sep 2006)

Something could be worked out with the local Gym so that their membership payments could be tagged to actual attendance. Could be a real boost in business for the Gym.


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## dglad (23 Sep 2006)

Haggis said:
			
		

> But at the expense of what else? Range time?  PLQ vacancies?  Not in my Company, sir!  Why?  Because I and my officers, WOs and NCOs beleive strongly that physical fitness is the ONE SOLDIER SKILL that is 100% within the soldier's ability to improve witout the need for any fancy equipment, facilites or specialized training and supervision.



We're in 100% agreement here.  There is absolutely NO way that, within the constraints of 37.5 days of training per year, we can provide meaningful fitness training to class A soldiers.  What I was suggesting wasn't formal fitness training inside the class A training envelope, but the ability for our soldiers to get and remain fit outside of it.  Your next point:



			
				Haggis said:
			
		

> Hopefully the release and implementation of DAOD 5023-2 (Physical Fitness) will go a long way to encouraging and protecting Class A Reservists to do good, gainful PT.  Until then we in the Chain of Command must continue to improvise, adapt and overcome this obstacle.



...speaks directly to that, and I hope it is the systemic solution I'd like to see.  Frankly, I don't think we can afford the class A time a real fitness regimen would cost; we'd have to at least double the 37.5 days.  But how about support for the Chain while "improvises, adapts and overcomes"?  How about, instead of having to hit up the Senate, Honouraries, or the OC's bank account to provide incentives, the system provides something?  Liability coverage for class A soldiers while they do fitness training on their own time would be a huge benefit even if it comes without actual pay, as would some sort of subsidy for access to a gym, etc., but some incentives for simply being fit (other than the performance hammer I described earlier) would help even more!


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## ZipperHead (23 Sep 2006)

I personally think that this is a good initiative. Going with the "somebody might abuse it" line of thought would doom everything to failure (treat soldiers like soldiers and they will act accordingly; treat soldiers like children and they will act as such). Reward those that use this opportunity to improve themselves, nail anybody who is caught abusing it to the wall, and see where it goes. 

People shouldn't have to be "bought" to do what should be a part of military service, but one would argue that anybody who is getting paid (i.e not a true volunteer) is being bought to do their job. 

Now, onto hammering those amongst us (Reg Force and Class C Reservists) who aren't taking the opportunity that they have been given to get into shape (being paid 24/7 and liability covered), and aren't taking it seriously.....

Al


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## 54/102 CEF (23 Sep 2006)

I searched these posts for what the Brit Reserves do - a demanding skill at arms including fitness test. Haven`t seen it myself but a number of our unit from Trail BC went through it at Shornecliffe a few years back. Bag drive. Once it was over - the checks are issued. In Sep 2003 when we snagged a trip to Manchester to the Royal Green Jackets camp at Preston - all the reserves were looking for a instant teller machine to deposit their performance pay = BOUNTY. 

$2500 - I am not smoking wacky tabaccy here. 

That said - I suggest CF Reserve go to a bounty system IMMEDIATELY! That way the pressure is on to parade - trian - remember - be efficient and STAY IN SHAPE physically, soldierly etc. 

Next time I see Rick having a smoke at NDHQ I`ll bring it up.


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## Haggis (23 Sep 2006)

54/102 CEF said:
			
		

> Next time I see Rick having a smoke at NDHQ I`ll bring it up.



You do that.  And also tell him this has to be "new" money, not taken out of existing budget allocations or found through a reduction in ammo/training days/POL/maintenance/admin/etc. etc as is the usual method of funding unforecasted Reserve "initiatives".

Be sure to come back and tell us how it goes.


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## 17thRecceSgt (23 Sep 2006)

The idea of assisting with gym memberships is a good one.  The college I went to in PEI had a Coporate membership that was paid for out of the Student Union.  You showed your Student ID, and they let you in.  The only "restriction" was the number of college students allowed in at one time ( I think it was 30).  

I believe my old unit has a membership like this in the city that covers all the Reg Frce and Class B people...why not just extend that?  Show your military ID, in you go.  Too easy?  Except for the funding.  If your CO is a butter ball himself, will he pay for this or will there be another Mess Dinner?

Like I said earlier, in my Bde, if you don't have a current EXPRES test passed, you don't get Class B anymore.  Period.  Those fatties-bum-batties who can't pass the EXPRES test who are already Class B will be put on remedial PT and all the normal stuff. If they can't pass, they will be done.  That should be motivation to start "sweatin' to the oldies"  ;D.

About time.  In all honesty, its about time.  I was at the my current unit 3 years before I was fitness tested.   :

Now let's bring in the policy where all people in CLS units HAVE to do the BFT.  Out of our entire staff, only 16 of us are doing it.  Call that...25-30% of our staff?


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## nawk (24 Sep 2006)

Last year our unit recreated a running club.  Anyone could come down a couple hours before the parade night started.  We'd go for a group run for an hour or so and instead of getting paid a half day we got a full days pay.  We also got paid to enter in certain races such as the 8km Harry's run for prostate cancer and the Mississauga Marathon.  Of course it helps to have a super-motivated PT god for a sergeant-major (MWO McIntyre).  We also have entered a soccer team in a rec league.  We pay for this out of our own pockets but it's good, fun PT.


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## 54/102 CEF (24 Sep 2006)

Haggis said:
			
		

> You do that.  And also tell him this has to be "new" money, not taken out of existing budget allocations or found through a reduction in ammo/training days/POL/maintenance/admin/etc. etc as is the usual method of funding unforecasted Reserve "initiatives".
> 
> Be sure to come back and tell us how it goes.



You`re on. He`s got more surprises for you on what you mentioned. Anyone in LFAA using AIME?


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## Journeyman (24 Sep 2006)

I keep coming back to this one line - - best one in the whole thread!


			
				Haggis said:
			
		

> *physical fitness is the ONE SOLDIER SKILL that is 100% within the soldier's ability to improve witout the need for any fancy equipment, facilites or specialized training and supervision.*


Yes, I'm aware of the lack of fitness facilities in remote locations and the liability involved in getting injured. That's the nature of remote locations. As for injury, that liability is deemed acceptable by many non-military civilians who manage to exercise despite the risk of injury and their civil employment.

In my mind, I can rationalize paying Reserves an extra half day's pay (or whatever amount) because it's just another aspect of training - - weapons' handling, law of armed conflict, personal fitness - - they're all part and parcel of being a trained soldier. In most units I've been with (RegF), opportunity to work-out is "provided" (read - you _will_ be on the parade square at 06:45 for PT). Comparing Reg & Res in this is clearly apples/oranges.

Of course, getting back to Haggis' quote, I choose to see it as a lifestyle issue because that's more acceptable to my male ego than admitting that if I didn't run, my g/f would kick my ass.


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## Haggis (24 Sep 2006)

54/102 CEF said:
			
		

> You`re on. He`s got more surprises for you on what you mentioned. Anyone in LFAA using AIME?



Surprises?  Cool!  I love some of the surprises that have come out of NDHQ (like garrison dress, the LSVW, the wholesale elimination of domestic Class "C", LFRR,  Reserve pension... oh, wait.  We're not supposed to know about that one yet.).

I'm not from LFAA.  What is AIME?  Is that like a CPR doll?


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## 17thRecceSgt (24 Sep 2006)

Haggis said:
			
		

> I'm not from LFAA.  What is AIME?  Is that like a CPR doll?
> 
> Surprises?  Cool!  I love surprises (like the Reserve pension).



I am from LFAA.  Believe me, you don't want to know about AIME... :

A CPR doll has a use...thats the difference...

Back to your regular scheduled issue on PT in the Reserves...


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## Haggis (24 Sep 2006)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Of course, getting back to Haggis' quote, I choose to see it as a lifestyle issue because that's more acceptable to my male ego than admitting that if I didn't run, my g/f would kick my ***.



If people put as much effort into doing PT as they do into avoiding it, we wouldn't be where we are today.


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## orange.paint (24 Sep 2006)

Also the people who plan courses and forget to plan in pt.Thats just wrong.Or days at the hanger when it just "too busy for PT" and you finish all the mornings work by 10h00 anyway.


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## 54/102 CEF (24 Sep 2006)

dglad said:
			
		

> We're in 100% agreement here.  ..........I don't think we can afford the class A time a real fitness regimen would cost; we'd have to at least double the 37.5 days.



It may be counter productive - despite good intentions - to pay to train for PT alone - out of the current pool of aval trg money.

Everybody who dances around the question of getting something for nothing is wasting everyone else's time. As Ray Liotta says in the Deniro Gangster movie "Goodfella's" - PAY ME.

I come up with a PT requirement of 3 hours per week x 52 weeks a year = 24 mandays @ 6.5 hrs effective work per day

Based on my near brush with an EXPRESS exemption (after I will admit too much time slacking) I figure you`d need to factor in

for Class A Trg  - 3 hours per week - has to be 1 hour per trg day - if you don`t have consistent time to do that - ie: Monday Wed Fri - with a PERI egging you on - you probably won't do it on your own to achieve what the supervising PERI will consistently achieve. As many have said - we can try - eg community sourced 3rd party managed program - because if a person in green can use a 9mm pencil on the ranges they will fiddle on the PT.

So give it to a Phys Ed Program at the local highschool - take attendance - have a bi weekly practise test - track progress - and when the CF Reservists pass their semi annual Express Test (Australian Reserves do 2 X a year I am told) - they get 12 days pay or a chit for a tax free bonus to equalise it up to a max of 24 days a year. Miss your test - thats OK - keep trg - but no $ until you pass - as I am told its a 90 day wait until your next test. Getting it right the first time generates a more important soldier skill - a sense of urgency. That will cause the bean counters to take notice. When the Express Test Fund cashes out the CDS will have a pretty good indicator that troops are serious. Seems a good payoff for dedication. If you don't pass the test - and don't have a medical chit - keep trg until you do.

Summary

Have an arms length deal with a non CF tester trainer if the CF cannot get itself organised to provide the EXPRESS TRG program for reserves year round. Old timers tell me that there used to be something called Unit Phys Ed Cpl ...... details are hazy. This could easily be brought back - and quickly.

One things for sure - Reserves are very capable of a wide range of jobs that do not require front end Taliban Experience. 4 local reserve Infantry Mcpls and an Engr Res Mcpl just ran 47 of us through Basic Gas Hut and Standard First Aid in Ottawa last week. To me thats way more demanding than supervising what you need to pass Express Test.

Sense of Urgency 
A little managed Risk

Voila! A training puzzle solved.


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## brihard (27 Sep 2006)

My company's got a simple and direct approach to this issue this year. The CO was able to get funds authorized for a second training night per week; on Monday nights, those who can make it in show up, do a couple weekends of PT/ancilliary 'gucci' training, and get a half days pay. I quickly started kicking myself in the head for signing up for a monday night history elective.

Our unit has the same plan as others- PT testing every few months, dire threats if performance doens't improve. Not quite sure what the nature of the stick is, and I've not seen a carrot, but at least it's being noticed. Perosnally I pulled on my ruck and did a 5km run along the river yesterday- God my legs hurt. If I can ruck run the 5km again at the Run for the Cure on Sunday though, I'll feel pretty bloody good about myself. I plan to run with the ruck more often; I can run distance no sweat, but the extra weight changes the nature of the workout entirely.

The reserves, unfortuantely, will always be prone to laziness and apathy among certain memebrs of the junior ranks. That's unfortunate and more or less inevitable. Hopefully we can motivate enough of a solid core (and retain them) that as the slackers enlist and release we won't really notice them passing through.


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## 54/102 CEF (27 Sep 2006)

Threats, unit initiatives ---- all in all a quest to make everyone better

In any organisation it helps to have a clear picture of what a basic level of achiveable fitness is.

Here`s the Ontario Plice Fitness Award Program - looks curiously like the Express test

http://www.police.london.ca/Employment/cadet/PDFs/Fitness_OPFA.pdf

Every Armoury in the country has 20 metres - all weather year round training now achievable! WE CAN DO THIS!


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## orange.paint (27 Sep 2006)

Or as i alluded to in another forum take the "warrior platoon" money and invest it into our reserve armouries on soldiers who can pass express test.


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## 54/102 CEF (28 Sep 2006)

Or

Everyone is formally shown how to do the exercises and keep records of their performance pointing to their repective goals

3 months elapse - do your physical prep

The first test - all who pass get 12 days pay

6 months later the second test - all who pass get 12 days pay

Repeat every 6 months

Expand the physical side on courses or attachments to reg force.

Keep it simple and it will work

Fill it up with administrators and endless reports up the line and it will go where everything else goes - when the man in the red suit and hot temperatures lives ---------- AYCH EEE DOUBLE ELL


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## Gunnerlove (29 Sep 2006)

Pass the BFT get a cheque (same amount regardless of rank or component). You get tested once a year, pass or fail. Make it forces wide (all branches Reg and Res) and watch the dreams of a new TV or ???????? drag the sloths off the couch. 

If you want the money you will get off your a**, train and show up to be tested.
Connect the cash to the pass. Not the training. No points or pay for taking part in any training, if you want the money you earn the reward. 

Now as for a Bounty system for showing up for unit training in the reserves that is a separate issue.


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## Cote (4 Oct 2006)

The CF shouldn't have to pay soldiers to be in shape. As civilians we pay to get in shape in forms of gym memberships, equiptment, and time lost (if your really busy). Taken from a larger view point it looks silly having to pay reserve soldiers to stay fit.


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## keaner (4 Oct 2006)

> The CF shouldn't have to pay soldiers to be in shape.



 A+


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## Bruce Monkhouse (4 Oct 2006)

Cote said:
			
		

> The CF shouldn't have to pay soldiers to be in shape. As civilians we pay to get in shape in forms of gym memberships, equiptment, and time lost (if your really busy). Taken from a larger view point it looks silly having to pay reserve soldiers to stay fit.



..........does your civilian job toss you out if your not in shape?.........Apples and oranges.


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## badlieutenant (9 Oct 2006)

This is goddam pathetic....

First of all, you should be in shape because it`s your duty as a soldier and it serves your best interests if you should ever be sent into combat.
Second, and this goes out to the younger soldiers, if you aren`t in shape, what the hell are you doing in the army? this isn`t a country club...
I really resent the fact that the military has to resort to measures such as bribery (the half days pay initiative) and fat camp (the VO2 max pre-basic training program) in order to maintain numbers. In my eyes, this is simply a lack of drive...sort your shit out, lay off the donuts and take pride in being a FIT soldier...simply throwing on a uniform doesn`t automatically make you a ninja commando...
I know this may come off as harsh, but i just want everyone in the forces, and especially the combat arms folks, to accept nothing less but the best from themselves, and to remember that fitness isn`t a bonus in forces, its a duty...hit the gym more and worry less about claim forms for extra out-of shape pay


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## 17thRecceSgt (10 Oct 2006)

That opinion works for Reg Frce and Fulltime P Res types...what about the Class A soldiers?

Can't paint everyone with the same brush...

Physical training is required to maintain physical fitness right?

Weapons training is requires to maintain proficiency with weapons.  Right?

Why, if PT/physically fitness TRAINING is done, would it not be the same as weapons training?  We pay em for going to the range...or whatever else they do.

Thats what I don't get.  No one has trouble paying Reservists to go the range and TRAIN with weapons.  If a CO of a unit is going to pay his troops to TRAIN physically...whats the difference?  Training is training.  Should we tell the Class A types to go to the local paintball place and "train" there, not pay them and then not see the results we want?

This issue is specific to Class A troops, IMHO.  The fulltime butterballs, Reg or Res are a different issue.

Training is training.  If a Reservist trains, they get paid.  If they don't train, they don't get paid.

Why make the PT training the part that they don't get paid for?  Reg Frce and Class B/C reserves get paid for this training...

 ???


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## orange.paint (10 Oct 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> That's what I don't get.  No one has trouble paying Reservists to go the range and TRAIN with weapons.  If a CO of a unit is going to pay his troops to TRAIN physically...whats the difference?  Training is training.  Should we tell the Class A types to go to the local paintball place and "train" there, not pay them and then not see the results we want?



Ranges...whats that?
I don't thinkthat's a very good analogy actually.It's actually the same problem,only with diffdifferentects of army life.Lack of training equals lack of results from the troops.However,from my point of view I could care less if Cpl mcblobby does his job anymore.It's nice to see the initiatives in place for class A guys,but I have learned over the past year that no canforgen/orders/guns to heads will fix our obese problem.

We were all quite excited on the aspect of the new canforgen last Christmas I remember people logging on here and being totally for it or against it.Wondering how it applied to them,their trade
and component.As I can see nothing has changed from higher.A few senior NCO's that I know took it and ran with it at section/troop level having mixed results from their subordinates.Those who wanted to improve,emulate their superiors did so.Those who did not want to improve took different direction,which could not be enforced upon due to other DND policy' such as harassment.Some people actually got charged for trying to motivate people on runs.IE "come on catch up."

If the west novies are doing this great.Do I believe it will help fitness of class A reservist?Not really.But if a few of these people benefit,all the power to them.It seems a lot of the time (myself included)we worry too much where the moneys coming from, who gets a piece of the pie,and how do I get some.

I suggest all senior per's (mcpl-up)look at themselves.You are what your troops will either strive to become or strive to never become.Be inspirational.Because when you really look at it it isnt the troop leader,OC,CO that has direct enforcement of physical conditioning it's us.CO's may put policy's in place(or in this case make new fitnesst initiatives) if the NCM's don't embrace it,it will fail.I know as a young trooper if someone was bitching about this new fitness problem,I would proably be online with them.Why?Youth are easily lead when it comes to senior people.Senior people could be the fat cpl in the smoking area.The canforgen would get rid of these people if followed corrcorrectly alas nothing.Hence NEVER establishing a society of fitness within our army I am so proud to  be a part of.

Taking in unfit people and expecting them to get fit,not releasing those who are not up to standard.Deploying fat per's who cannot meet standards,if far from a society of fitness.

cheers all


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## 54/102 CEF (10 Oct 2006)

badlieutenant said:
			
		

> This is goddam pathetic....
> its a duty...hit the gym more and worry less about claim forms for extra out-of shape pay



Very good points except all soldiers currently inside the perimeter all came from outside - and they are all vulnerable to a degree to all the sloth and indolence of the real world. Leadership only has them for a time........ eg: ride the bus to work, walk down the hallway - look at your own family get together - count up all who don`t look like your mental image - I bet its about 30% pudgy - 30% going pudgy ---- see whats waiting for you when you let up? That's where the soldiers come from. So we cajole and lead to make it easier for all to follow the path of fitness......

To quote that all time favorite movie Pulp Fiction

Jules, played by Samuel L. Jackson, is the thoughtful, spiritually-oriented half of a team of thug assassins. Before Jules "offs" people, they get treated to some scripture, Ezek 25:17: 

"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. _(TV, TIMS, Sit on your a$$ society) _ Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children _(That's the Leadership)._ And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you." http://www.unomaha.edu/jrf/2004Symposium/Denzey.htm

So once again we get to the old saw of there are no bad soldiers - its always about leaders leading.


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## keaner (10 Oct 2006)

> So once again we get to the old saw of there are no bad soldiers - its always about leaders leading.



 No, it isn't. It's about being accountable to yourself, it's about maintaining your fitness level because it  a requirement of a good soldier....because someone who is responsible does the right thing whether or not someone watches him or pays him to do it....whether A, B, C class or Reg.


...and before anyone jumps down my throat with.."its not a requirement"...I understand it is technically legal to be a slob the whole year and scrape out an Express test once every 12 months. My definition of "requirement" is that we should all be fit to fight, and if you aren't find another job.

 Think of it this way: If you are failing - or barely passing - the CF fitness tests, would you want someone like you to be responsible for your life?


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## Synthos (17 Oct 2006)

Instead of paying a member for X hours of PT on their own time... Make a standard for your unit and give a day or two days pay (or gucci kit) to all the members that pass that standard. If this is done monthly, that would seem fair to me. Some people (probably not me >_<) who spend around 6-7 hours weekly on their own PT. That's 24-28 hours per month of PT, or 3-3.5 days (8 hours/day) of unpaid time. Compensating a days pay/month for meeting an extra high standard sounds nice.

The only thing I might have issue with is that why certain people (higher ranks) would  receive more money for meeting the same standards as Joe the private. Since this pay is intended to compensate people for their time outside of the military, is the Pte's personal time worth less than the Cpl?


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