# The Fall of Stephane Dion



## Reccesoldier (26 Mar 2008)

Although I'm on the record here in other threads as thinking that Dion is merely a seat warmer for the Liberal King in waiting (Trudeau) I'm going to call it now that he will never be permitted to lead the Liberal Party in an election.

http://www.ottawasun.com/News/National/2008/03/26/5103291-sun.html

So let the speculation begin.  Who will it be, Ignatief, the Canadian of convenience, Rae the Liberal of convenience or my personal favorite Justin, King in Waiting and seed of the loins of Pierre the Great.

In my opinion it really doesn't matter, the Liberals have shown that the only thing they attack with more gusto than Conservatives is other Liberals.  The Martin - Cretien feud is a poison pill and has not worked its way through the digestive system of the big Red machine yet, nor will it in the near future.


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## KJL (26 Mar 2008)

Not exactly hard to foresee Dion going down, the man doesn't have an ounce of leadership in his body. He's just not electable. The other thing is that since there leadership convention didn't effectively anoint a leader and Dion kept his main rivals close to him and in the spotlight ( when it shines on the Opposition anyway), there's no clear successor so the attacks on fellow Liberals will only continue for the next few years.


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## Fishbone Jones (26 Mar 2008)

I would hate to see Dion go before the election. His ineptitude almost guarantees the CPC a victory. 

The liberal base support in Ontario, notwithstanding Rae's newly parachuted into riding, still have too recent a memory of him as premier and he would erode the Morontario red powerbase too much. His riding would have voted for Hitler or Stalin if they ran as the liberal candidate.

Trudeau is not a mature enough statesman. He's misstepped too much since they offered him the safety and backing of the party. He's done an excellent job so far of alienating non bilingual persons, the west and anyone that considers themselves a hard working Canadian.There are also many, I think, within the party elite that didn't like daddy much and have no inclination to let that particular legacy endure. I also believe that the general public today is more politically savvy, than my starry eyed sisters and their ilk were when they voted for that pompous prig PET simply on his charisma.

Ignatieff on the other hand, he could cause trouble. He has some personality hurdles to overcome, but he's fast on his feet. Very intelligent, but uses to many $30.00 words for the working man. 

Nope, I hope Dion leads the libs into the next election. He's the best thing that ever happened to not only the CPC, but all the other parties to boot. I really never thought there could be anyone worse than Martin, but there he is! ;D

All just my $00.02 and opinion.


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## armyvern (26 Mar 2008)

Well,

Apparently all the current Liberal issues are NOT all just a matter of him lacking "charisma" then (like I ever thought _that_).  :

Evidently there are those in the party (at least the Quebec wing) who "want a leader." Imagine that. What a concept. An actual Leader --- perhaps one with some leadership abilities & skills who actually CAN lead.

Doesn't sit too well with me that M. Dion then makes this comment (and I really do hope he is wrong here):



> He added that the _Quebec wing of the party was ready to sway voters should an election be called this spring_.
> 
> "Instead of being scared of losing, we must showcase our will to win. And we will win, united, in Quebec," Dion proclaimed.



A wing that admits that their Leader is not a leader at all and that can not lead the party is actually willing to sway voters to elect that non-Leadership capable individual to lead the country?? They don't want him to run the party, but him running the country is OK?? Seems quite logical to me.  :

Somewhere on here --- just the other day --- someone made the remark that for the Liberals it wasn't about "what's good for Country, but rather it was about gaining & retaining power only." <--- or something to that effect.

After this article, I'm leaning towards agreement with that observation.


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## KJL (26 Mar 2008)

Think it may have been Klein who said it, something to the effect of its never good to be in power for too long a period of time....Just my two cents, but the Liberals need to spend some time on the Opposition side of the House again. Then again, Harpers actually spending money on the CF so Im alright with that for the time being.


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## JesseWZ (26 Mar 2008)

They have been on the opposition side, for two years... But I agree. They can stay there for as long as they want.


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## Yrys (26 Mar 2008)

JesseWZ said:
			
		

> They can stay there for as long as they want.



huh, they don't WANT to be there for longer that it will take to make an election   !


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## JesseWZ (26 Mar 2008)

I would disagree, by continuing to allow Dion as leader its like they enjoy being in Opposition.


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## Yrys (26 Mar 2008)

JesseWZ said:
			
		

> I would disagree, by continuing to allow Dion as leader its like they enjoy being in Opposition.



If it was that easy a mechanism, Ignatieff and Rae would have league together to have a leadership course, it seems to me...


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## midget-boyd91 (26 Mar 2008)

In my opinion (not that it's really worth a full 2 cents), Ignatieff and Rae would like to see Dion go through a federal election. They wouldn't need to worry about the CPC gaining a majority.. there are too damn many parties running for that to happen. 
Dion would be quite frankly, given the boot after losing _XX_ number of seats to _X_ party (but would 'step down' graciously) giving Ignats or Rae the party. This is what they want. They want to be the heroes whom swoop to the rescue after the dismal failure that is M. Dion. 
Anything and anybody, including some of the road kill out here, will appear to be the worlds greatest leader to the Liberals _and their shifted supporters_ after the blundering, stumbling Dion mess..   Score one for Ignats/Rae.

Midget


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## Reccesoldier (26 Mar 2008)

uncle-midget-boyd said:
			
		

> In my opinion (not that it's really worth a full 2 cents), Ignatieff and Rae would like to see Dion go through a federal election. They wouldn't need to worry about the CPC gaining a majority.. there are too damn many parties running for that to happen.



All those other parties are dividing a (shrinking?) piece of the left side of the pie, leaving only the CPC to express the views of those on the right, small and large "C" conservatives, libertarians etc.

I agree though I'd love to see Harper shred Dion in a real election, not that it would be as much a _show_ as a one-sided donkey whipping.


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## Reccesoldier (26 Mar 2008)

Be a man don't like Dion.  ;D


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## a_majoor (26 Mar 2008)

This makes me wonder. The conventional wisdom is the current "troika" at the head of the Liberal party are the contenders for leadership, and the King in Waiting may/could swoop in and take all the marbles while the big three are impaled on each other's knives.

Since we have seen first hand examples of how people with no identifiable beliefs or platforms can capture parties and even power (Premier McGuinty in Ontario, Senator Obama in the United States), I don't think the true story is on the front benches of parliament. We see shadowy hints of the power brokers in the Liberal Party at work, Bob Rae is aligned with the Chretien/Power Corp wing of the party and even openly employed people involved in ADSCAM as part of his election team. I suspect at least some of this back room group recognizes that the current crop of Liberals leadership wannabes has too much baggage, and may be making other plans. The King in Waiting is one plausible solution, the name recognition alone must be quite tempting to exploit.

I wonder if there is a "B" team in the wings. Gerard Kennedy and Martha Hall Findlay were both contenders, and on surface examination don't seem to be lightweights or loose cannons. Maybe there are other names as well?

Someone with greater inside knowledge of the workings of the Liberal Party will need to look into this in order to shine a light on what is really happening.



> someone made the remark that for the Liberals it wasn't about "what's good for Country, but rather it was about gaining & retaining power only."



This seems to be a paraphrase of Warren Kinsella, although I confess I can't seem to find the exact quote right now.


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## RangerRay (26 Mar 2008)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Since we have seen first hand examples of how people with no identifiable beliefs or platforms can capture parties and even power (Premier McGuinty in Ontario, Senator Obama in the United States)...



You forgot the obvious...Pauly "Mr. Dithers" Martin!  ;D


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## stegner (28 Mar 2008)

> Think it may have been Klein who said it, something to the effect of its never good to be in power for too long a period of time



He said that about Chretien.  Klein would go on to serve as Premier longer than Chretien served as PM.  The PC's got fed up and kicked him out of power.  He really needed to take his own advice.  Harper has also noted that he would not serve longer than 8 years as PM.  



> This seems to be a paraphrase of Warren Kinsella, although I confess I can't seem to find the exact quote right now.



He probably said this about Martin not about Liberals in general considering he is the guy the runs Dalton's warrooms.  It's not just true of the Liberals it's true about all political parties.  




> Be a man don't like Dion.



Reccesoldier I would rather have women liking me than men  



If you go to the media coverage around September 2005 you saw similar stuff written about Stephen Harper.  Just a couple months later is he was in power.  I am not saying necessarily that this is the case for Dion, but hey stranger things have happened.  I guess the media is getting bored and needs to start causing conflict again.  Who cares what Liza Frulla thinks anyway?


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## a_majoor (28 Mar 2008)

The media both sadly underestimated Stephen Harper, and like many segments of Canadian society are fundamentally opposed to the precepts of Classical Liberalism, and will say and do many things to support the cause of Progressivism. 

Mr Dion has one very good reason to hang on at all costs: his leadership debts. While they will become illegal campaign contributions in July of this year if not paid off, at least the Party will be partially or entirely on the hook, whereas if he is deposed, he will be financially ruined.

http://westernstandard.blogs.com/shotgun/2008/03/how-long-does-d.html



> *The Shotgun Blog*
> 
> Friday, March 28, 2008
> *How Long Does Dion Have Left?*
> ...


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## Panzer Grenadier (28 Mar 2008)

Well, I for one will be getting my popcorn ready for the show/debacle.


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## footslogger (28 Mar 2008)

The thing that I can't understand is that in the polls both Conservatives and Liebrils are very close to being tied.  What could it possibly take for these people to see that party for what it is?


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## Panzer Grenadier (28 Mar 2008)

footslogger said:
			
		

> The thing that I can't understand is that in the polls both Conservatives and Liebrils are very close to being tied.  What could it possibly take for these people to see that party for what it is?



God coming down from heaven, telling everyone to vote for the Tories.


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## VM (28 Mar 2008)

Dion may be the least political politician I have ever seen. His political game (and we all know often times politics is a game) is dreadful at best. I consider myself more Liberal than conservative, and it is a bit disapointing to see the Liberal party going down the tubes because of one man. That being said, I consider myself Liberal because of many of the ideologies I adhere to, Liberals are just closer to me in thought then conservatives are. The practical is a different story. Like many (I would say most) I consider myself almost non-partisan, and vote purely on the party which represents the closest form to what I think is right. And because of the existence of this kind of politics among the Canadian voters the Leader of parties play a gigantic role, and thus, the Liberal party doesn't stand a chance. If the Liberals had Ignatieff it would be a different story, and I would surely vote for the Liberals, now I am in a tough spot when the next election does come. 

Of course, my 2 cents may count as nothing, as I am a recent university graduate and my political ideologies have been up and down. Went from being conservative (before uni) to being the middleman, to being Liberal, to being border line Marxist for a year, and then back down the other way. I see myself moving more and more back towards middle the more months I'm out of university. Wierd. 

Was it Churchill who said, "The young person who is a conservative is heartless, the older person who is Liberal is stupid."  Something like that at least.


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## a_majoor (28 Mar 2008)

footslogger said:
			
		

> The thing that I can't understand is that in the polls both Conservatives and Liebrils are very close to being tied.  What could it possibly take for these people to see that party for what it is?



Many powerful groups benefit from the growth and implementation of "Progressive" ideology (i.e. government and quasi government unions, bureaucracies, government companies like the CBC and businesspeople who have discovered how to milk the system). These interest groups will go to very great lengths to maintain their hold on power. They have also discovered how to manipulate the population, using the promise of social programs to bribe the voters, inversion of language to disguise concepts (think about what "progressive taxation" really means, for example), and the use of ad hominem arguments and contrived scandals to supress or eliminate debate on various topics. Controlling institutions like schools, the media and the courts also ensures things go the way "they" want.

In one sense, the fight against the HRC's may represent the first crack in the Progressive's armour. HRC's operate as "Star Chambers" to enforce the memes of Political correctness, and as currently constituted operate beyond the law. Once this battle is joined fully, it may occur to many people that there are lots of other bureaucracies and government agencies which also infringe upon our rights and freedoms, and action must be taken against them as well.

I know this is a sea change which will be fought against with all the weapons in the Progressive armoury, and all the more difficult since most of these people and institutions have access to the resources of the State itself. The rise of the CPC and corresponding small Classical Liberal perties at the provincial level (Wildrose Alliance, Saskatchewan Party, Reform Ontario) suggests to me that there is now a real chance this battle can be won in the end.


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## Reccesoldier (29 Mar 2008)

To go along with what Thucydides is saying about progressive definitions.  The concept of "hate speech" is an anti-concept that clumps real hate (antisemitism, Nazism, racism) with the imagined hate of blunt honesty, exposure of hypocrisies and politically correct appeasement policies.

It's all about control.  If you can control what people say, if you can control the definitions you will gain some control over what people think and do and how they act and_ that _is the real goal of progressivism.


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## Good2Golf (29 Mar 2008)

Don't count him out yet.  He IS a leader!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ux_s2l26dUc&feature=related


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## aesop081 (29 Mar 2008)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Don't count him out yet.  He IS a leader!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ux_s2l26dUc&feature=related




 :rofl:


Well, i'm convinced.


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## Reccesoldier (29 Mar 2008)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Don't count him out yet.  He IS a leader!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ux_s2l26dUc&feature=related



This feel good piece will be followed immediately by a corresponding drop in the polls.

Desperation you could cut with a knife.


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## armyvern (29 Mar 2008)

But, I suppose, he certainly is "*The Leader * of the Official Opposition" and "*The Leader * of the Liberal Party of Canada". Technically they're correct. 

But, I sure don't see that video saying that he's a very good leader (or even just a good, or even a so-so leader) ... and they certainly don't call him a strong or capable leader.

In fact, the only one who even uses the word "*Leader*" is the PM who is congratulating Dion on his winning the Leadership of the Liberal Party of Canada, ... and any PM always congratulates a newly elected *Leader* of a Party. It's politics.

Here we go ...

Martin said he called Harper on the phone to congratulate him on his victory... "The people of Canada have chosen him to lead a minority government. I wish him the best," said Martin. "We differ on many things, but we all share a belief in the potential and the promise of Canada, the desire of our country, to succeed."

Notice that PM Martin was congratulating Harper on his winning the Leadership of the Country, ... not merely a party. Telling that.


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## Good2Golf (29 Mar 2008)

I wouldn't get too fussed about Mr. Harper, Duceppe or Layton's comments...they're all lukewarm.  


In contrast, Elizabeth May's accolade is pure gold! "If they say he was anything other than a very strong environment minister, they're making it up."  

...there's a small tear in my eye...that was beautiful!


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## stegner (29 Mar 2008)

For all the money the CPC is spending on ads why don't they promote their own accomplishments instead of going after the opposition leader?  As a citizen who keeps relatively good track of politics I am sort of confused per Harper's accomplishments-other than the Federal Accountability Act.   Can someone kindly provide  me with a short list of Harper's accomplishments?


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## aesop081 (29 Mar 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> For all the money the CPC is spending on ads why don't they promote their own accomplishments instead of going after the opposition leader?  As a citizen who keeps relatively good track of politics I am sort of confused per Harper's accomplishments-other than the Federal Accountability Act.   Can someone kindly provide  me with a short list of Harper's accomplishments?



Ordinarly i would agree but the average voter in this country hardly remembers positive political achievements. Its much more productive in this country to remind voters of why the other party is bad.

Sad but true.


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## sgf (29 Mar 2008)

Plus so much easier to blame the other parties. All parties do this, and its just so childish.


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## Yrys (29 Mar 2008)

sgf said:
			
		

> Plus so much easier to blame the other parties. All parties do this, and its just so childish.



It is childish, but I heard a few weeks ago a municipal politician saying that he wasn't going for provincial or federal politics
because the job of the government is to prove that they're doing a good job, and the job of the opposition is to prove that they're not,
and he wasn't interested in that... I found that very ... illuminating.

So what is childisnesh on their part is them doing their job. Which is sad (that it's that their job).


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## Reccesoldier (29 Mar 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> For all the money the CPC is spending on ads why don't they promote their own accomplishments instead of going after the opposition leader?  As a citizen who keeps relatively good track of politics I am sort of confused per Harper's accomplishments-other than the Federal Accountability Act.   Can someone kindly provide  me with a short list of Harper's accomplishments?



I've noticed this too and the real thing is that the accomplishments of the government *are* being reported in the news.  A couple of days ago there was an article noting that the Department of Indian affairs had cleared 54 land claims in the last year (a substantial increase over the norm and 4 more than the goal set by the minister) but unlike previous governments the CPC didn't hold a news conference to pat itself on the back and therefore the message was missed by the blinkered and spoon-fed majority.

I personally don't like it when the government calls a news conference every time it successfully passes gas and prefer the CPC's approach, but it seems to me that the majority of the public don't pay enough attention to the news unless the rhetoric volume is set high enough to make ears bleed or the annoyance factor is right up there with nails on a chalkboard.

I may be in the minority (it's happened before  ) but I prefer my government to work rather than to break its arm in self-congratulation every week in the Ottawa press gallery.  

Unfortunately it seems that unless the CPC begin to shout "look at us" every time they meet a goal or reach a benchmark the Canadian people are never going to raise their heads out of the sand and look past constructed crisis's, and the obligatory _"something"gate_ of the daily newsentainment as fabricated by our faithful Canadian pressitutes.  :


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## Meridian (29 Mar 2008)

Ive always followed Dion with a bit of special interest, and, ironically, this is because of the CF, indirectly.

When I was an OCdt at RMC st-jean,  Dion's wife,  Janine Krieber, was my political science professor.   Through him and their contacts, we had quite the little tour of NMCC in Ottawa and a meet and greet with both Dion and McCallum who was Min Def at he time.

Sufficed to say... Janine's stories at Mess dinners made it all go by quite fast 

[edit to correct spelling]


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## armyvern (29 Mar 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> For all the money the CPC is spending on ads why don't they promote their own accomplishments instead of going after the opposition leader?  As a citizen who keeps relatively good track of politics I am sort of confused per Harper's accomplishments-other than the Federal Accountability Act.   Can someone kindly provide  me with a short list of Harper's accomplishments?



Well geez,

While you were doing all that tracking of the CPCs adds ... did you miss the stuff like this?? Attacks on the others ... nothing new for either side there.  :

Stephane Dion makes fun of Harper's weight;

Or, heck ... did you prefer the Liberal adds slamming those Soldiers in their streets with weapons?? In Canada!!??


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## stegner (29 Mar 2008)

> Or, heck ... did you prefer the Liberal adds slamming those Soldiers in their streets with weapons?? In Canada!!??



Those ads were not cool-but neither were the comments that Gordon O'Connor made about JTF2 in the last election campaign.   



> Stephane Dion makes fun of Harper's weight;



I don't think it is unreasonable to expect our leaders to be in good shape.


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## armyvern (29 Mar 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> Those ads were not cool-but neither were the comments that Gordon O'Connor made about JTF2 in the last election campaign.
> 
> I don't think it is unreasonable to expect our leaders to be in good shape.



Got something new for us??

It's not like too many of us around here like the comments either. You miss that too?? There's certainly no shyness in calling a spade a spade around here -- no matter the political stripe of that spade.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/37742.0.html

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/37768.0.html

As for your second bit --- get real.  :


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## Yrys (29 Mar 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> I don't think it is unreasonable to expect our leaders to be in good shape.



What did you thought when Coderre
 was minister of Sport ?


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## armyvern (29 Mar 2008)

Yrys said:
			
		

> What did you thought when Coderre
> was minister of Sport ?



Not much.


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## stegner (29 Mar 2008)

> It's not like too many of us around here like the comments either. You miss that too?? There's certainly no shyness in calling a spade a spade around here -- no matter the political stripe of that spade.



Of course I don't miss those comments.  I am all about calling a spade a spade around here also.


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## Meridian (30 Mar 2008)

apparently.... even his wife may have something to do with his downfall...

http://en.chatelaine.com/english/life/article.jsp?content=20070416_160841_4712&page=2


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## RangerRay (30 Mar 2008)

According to the latest CROP poll, the Tories and BQ are in a statistical tie in Quebec, and the Liberals and NDP are far behind.  Must be something to this putsch from the Quebec wing...

<a href="http://www.cyberpresse.ca/article/20080329/CPACTUALITES/803290815/6730/CPACTUALITES">Link to article</a>

If my translation is correct, here's the breakdown:

Overall
BQ - 30%
Conservatives - 29%
Liberals - 20%
NDP - 15%

Quebec City area
Conservatives - 41%
BQ - 25%
NDP - 17%
Liberals - 15%

Rest of Quebec
CPP - 34%
Bloc - 30%

Montreal
BQ - 32%
Liberals - 25%
Conservatives - 21%

Best PM
Harper - 35%
Layton - 24%
Dion - 16%

Satisfaction with Harper government...55%


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## Fishbone Jones (30 Mar 2008)

Meridian said:
			
		

> Ive always followed Dion with a bit of special interest, and, ironically, this is because of the CF, indirectly.



I've always followed Dion with a bit of special interest, and, ironically, this is because it's like watching a train wreck. It's morbid, but you can't look away.


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## Good2Golf (30 Mar 2008)

Meridian said:
			
		

> apparently.... even his wife may have something to do with his downfall...
> 
> http://en.chatelaine.com/english/life/article.jsp?content=20070416_160841_4712&page=2




welll....


> ....Says one disgruntled Liberal who doesn't want to be named, "She has the potential to overshadow him. The scuttlebutt here is that he's being cast in a role that's weak, a guy who lets his wife pick his clothes for him and asks her advice on policy – it doesn't play well for him."



That's BS!  No need to blame her for being overly strong....if you pick a pantywaist to lead your party forward, don't try and devalue other people associated with him!  [He's just appears weak because his wife is so [overly] strong?]  That's tripe!


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## KJL (31 Mar 2008)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I've always followed Dion with a bit of special interest, and, ironically, this is because it's like watching a train wreck. It's morbid, but you can't look away.



Hahaha Probably the best description of the Liberals since Chretien.  Thanks for my morning laugh Recceguy


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## McG (31 Mar 2008)

> Dion's advisers want Ignatieff demoted: CTV
> Updated Sun. Mar. 30 2008 10:38 PM ET
> CTV.ca News Staff
> 
> ...


http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080330/dion_deputy_080330/20080330?hub=TopStories


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## Yrys (31 Mar 2008)

> "She has the potential to overshadow him. The scuttlebutt here is that he's being cast in a role that's weak, a guy who lets his wife pick his clothes for him
> and asks her advice on policy – it doesn't play well for him."



Why is that make him weak ? Because it's his wife who make suggestion, instead of high paid communication specialists for the clothes 
and politicals consiglieres for policy ? 

Shhees!


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## ModlrMike (31 Mar 2008)

I hazard to guess that if Mr Ignatieff were demoted, he might cross the floor. After all, he's probably the bluest liberal in the house.


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## Reccesoldier (31 Mar 2008)

Yrys said:
			
		

> Why is that make him weak ? Because it's his wife who make suggestion, instead of high paid communication specialists for the clothes
> and politicals consiglieres for policy ?
> 
> Shhees!



I took this as a close look into the brain of some Liberals.  It isn't a crack at Dion but a commentary of where some Liberals place women in our society.

Of course I'm a man who has from time to time required my wifes fashion advice.


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## Danjanou (31 Mar 2008)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I hazard to guess that if Mr Ignatieff were demoted, he might cross the floor. After all, he's probably the bluest liberal in the house.



Now that would be an interesting scenario. Wonder if the Conservatives would want, accept him, or would he end up sitting as an independent which would be the kiss of death politically for him.


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## forcerecon85 (31 Mar 2008)

Coderre has been demoted too. I don't like him one bit.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080331/dion_coderre_080331/20080331?hub=TopStories

"Dion demotes Coderre in bid to restore discipline

Updated Mon. Mar. 31 2008 12:29 PM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

Liberal MP Denis Coderre has been demoted from his position as defence critic in a move seen as a bid by leader Stephane Dion to restore discipline in his party's caucus.

Coderre is being shuffled to the position of heritage critic, a portfolio with a lower profile. He has been replaced by Bryon Wilfert, a Dion loyalist and one of the first supporters of his bid for the party leadership.

"Stephane Dion is trying to take control of his caucus, believing he's being undermined by people like Mr. Coderre and Michael Ignatieff, and so the knives are out," CTV's Ottawa Bureau Chief Robert Fife told Canada AM.

The outspoken Coderre was a key supporter of Ignatieff during his bid for the leadership of the Liberal party, a contest that was eventually won by Dion, who beat out Ignatieff, along with Bob Rae and Martha Hall Findlay.

Dion's leadership ability has come under fire in recent weeks, with many within the party looking to Ignatieff to take over. Fife said the Dion camp has even contemplated dropping Ignatieff from his position as deputy leader and demoting him to immigration critic.

New MPs

The shuffle comes as Rae, Hall Findlay and Joyce Murray take their seats in the House of Commons for the first time since being elected in recent byelections.

Rae remains in his position as foreign affairs critic, which he held despite not having been elected, and Hall Findlay becomes associate finance critic.

Gerard Kennedy, another unsuccessful leadership candidate, is the new critic for intergovernmental affairs, though he has not yet run for election.

Fife said the new MPs will be hard to miss in the House of Commons but Ignatieff's role will likely be scaled back.

"As time goes on you'll see Mr. Ignatieff will be playing less of a role in question period and that will go to people like Bob Rae and Martha Hall Findlay who are coming into the House today as legitimate stars."

Shuffle details

According to a Liberal news release, the following changes were made within the opposition ranks:

    * In addition to continuing as foreign affairs critic, Rae will join the Priorities and Planning Committee;
    * In addition to becoming associate finance critic, Hall Findlay will also join the Priorities and Planning Committee;
    * Murray becomes Vice-Chair of the Caucus Committee on Environmental Sustainability;
    * Geoff Regan replaces John Godfrey as Chair of the Caucus Committee on Environmental Sustainability;
    * Coderre becomes the Liberal Critic for Canadian Heritage, la Francophonie and Official Languages;
    * Wilfert, formerly Associate Foreign Affairs Critic, moves to the Defence file;
    * Kennedy becomes Critic for Intergovernmental Affairs; and
    * Senator James Cowan and Dr. Bernard Party join the Priorities and Planning Committee. "


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## RangerRay (31 Mar 2008)

> He has been replaced by Bryon Wilfert, a Dion loyalist and one of the first supporters of his bid for the party leadership.



Who?


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## Kirkhill (31 Mar 2008)

All this talk of Liberal MPs wanting an election and M. Dion holding off for fear of the consequences....

It seems to me that if those Liberal MPs really want to get rid of M. Dion, and the only way they can do that is have a leadership contest, and the only way the can have one of those is to have an election then they have one sure cure immediately available to them: Next confidence motion show up and vote against the Government.

Last I heard the MP's vote was his own....not the Party's and not the Leader's.


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## 54/102 CEF (31 Mar 2008)

footslogger said:
			
		

> The thing that I can't understand is that in the polls both Conservatives and Liebrils are very close to being tied.  What could it possibly take for these people to see that party for what it is?



There was a poll a month or two back that said the country is permanently split - and in Canada - if your parents voted one way - you probably vote that way too.

Not being a political guy like the rest of the troops on this thread (and its very good I believe) it seems to validate in that people you`d think would vote one way after certain life experiences (Army, School, University) go right back to throw their vote away .... but to them they are going the right thing - so what can you do except observe the phenmenon? 

In the next election vote like Ferdinand Marcos - Vote Early and Vote Often!


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## stegner (31 Mar 2008)

> It seems to me that if those Liberal MPs really want to get rid of M. Dion, and the only way they can do that is have a leadership contest, and the only way the can have one of those is to have an election then they have one sure cure immediately available to them: Next confidence motion show up and vote against the Government.




Um...You can't just hold a leadership contest willy nilly.  However, there will be a leadership review coming up and the Liberal party faithful can yay or nay Dion.  A leadership contest might result as a fact of that situation.  



> Last I heard the MP's vote was his own....not the Party's and not the Leader's.



Yikes!  Where did you hear that???  This is not at all how the Canadian Parliamentary system works now, or quite frankly, has ever worked.   Canada is governed by responsible government-meaning that the executive is accountable to Parliament.  To ensure that the executive is accountable to Parliament it must command the confidence of the House of Commons.  In order to ensure that the executive has the confidence of the House of Commons it uses measures such as party discipline comprised of different levels.   This means that if an MP wants to remain a member of that Party he has to toe the line or he is out.   Only rarely does an MP have the ability to vote they way he wants even if it is against his own party and these are free votes.


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## Reccesoldier (31 Mar 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> Yikes!  Where did you hear that???  This is not at all how the Canadian Parliamentary system works now, or quite frankly, has ever worked.   Canada is governed by responsible government-meaning that the executive is accountable to Parliament.  To ensure that the executive is accountable to Parliament it must command the confidence of the House of Commons.  In order to ensure that the executive has the confidence of the House of Commons it uses measures such as party discipline comprised of different levels.   This means that if an MP wants to remain a member of that Party he has to toe the line or he is out.   Only rarely does an MP have the ability to vote they way he wants even if it is against his own party and these are free votes.



Exactly, the choice is still the MP's.  She He still has to face the consequences but no one can issue an order for Him or Her to remain seated and leave them without free will to stand on their own.

Yes our MP's are whipped in more way than one but they can still vote their conscience.


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## vonGarvin (31 Mar 2008)

Reccesoldier said:
			
		

> Yes our MP's are whipped in more way than one but they can still vote their conscience.


And they have.  I believe that it was Bill Casey of the Conservatives who voted against a government motion (budget?).  He was tossed from caucus and I believe he sits as an independant.  The NDP also have: in the initial "same sex" marriage vote, it was not a free vote for the NDP.  A member from Manitoba (?) voted against it, and I believe that she too was tossed from their party.
Now, if some sort of grass roots MP rebellion arose with a cry of "For God's sake, go!" were to happen, I don't know how the party would deal with say ten plus members.
EDIT:
Now, imagine this.  Ten or so liberal MPs inform the Conservative whip of their intentions.  It comes time for the vote, and the conservatives deliberately leave x number of MPs away.  Dion thinks that he still has it by 8 votes or so for the latest government motion to pass with his guys remaining in their seats.  Much to his surprise, ten stand, the motion is defeated and Stephen Harper announces that he's lost confidence of the house and is off to see the Governor General.  
Imagine: ten opposition members dealing with the government to bring it down so that they can go to election and lose their leader!  Someone ought to write a book!  ;D


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## stegner (31 Mar 2008)

> Yes our MP's are whipped in more way than one but they can still vote their conscience.



The sad fact is that the MP's that do so have short political lives after such acts of political bravery.


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## Reccesoldier (31 Mar 2008)

Mortarman Rockpainter said:
			
		

> And they have.  I believe that it was Bill Casey of the Conservatives who voted against a government motion (budget?).  He was tossed from caucus and I believe he sits as an independant.  The NDP also have: in the initial "same sex" marriage vote, it was not a free vote for the NDP.  A member from Manitoba (?) voted against it, and I believe that she too was tossed from their party.
> Now, if some sort of grass roots MP rebellion arose with a cry of "For God's sake, go!" were to happen, I don't know how the party would deal with say ten plus members.
> EDIT:
> Now, imagine this.  Ten or so liberal MPs inform the Conservative whip of their intentions.  It comes time for the vote, and the conservatives deliberately leave x number of MPs away.  Dion thinks that he still has it by 8 votes or so for the latest government motion to pass with his guys remaining in their seats.  Much to his surprise, ten stand, the motion is defeated and Stephen Harper announces that he's lost confidence of the house and is off to see the Governor General.
> Imagine: ten opposition members dealing with the government to bring it down so that they can go to election and lose their leader!  Someone ought to write a book!  ;D



I like the way you think.


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## Reccesoldier (31 Mar 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> The sad fact is that the MP's that do so have short political lives after such acts of political bravery.



Which is another reason that the Party system as it is in Canada is causing a degradation in the pluralism of our democracy. Too much power in the hands of the party, not enough in the hands of the people/MP's


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## stegner (31 Mar 2008)

Getting rid of the party system is difficult if not impossible considering responsible government.


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## Reccesoldier (31 Mar 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> Getting rid of the party system is difficult if not impossible considering responsible government.





> Party system *as it is*



Parties are an inevitability, either formalized like our system or informal (like in Afghanistan) like seeks out like.  The trick is to limit the power held by the apparachik and destroy the ideal of a "political career".


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## stegner (31 Mar 2008)

Howabout primaries to select the national party leaders like in the U.S?  Is that a start?


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## Yrys (31 Mar 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> How about primaries to select the national party leaders like in the U.S?  Is that a start?



doesn't primaries require more money that the actual system, i.e. people with money and cies get to have more "say" ?


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## stegner (31 Mar 2008)

Sure money helps to advertise but it alone does not decide elections.  If you place restrictions like there are for general elections moneyed influence should not matter really.


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## Yrys (31 Mar 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> Sure money helps to advertise but it alone does not decide elections.  If you place restrictions like there are for general elections moneyed influence should not matter really.



Then I guess the "commandite scandal" happens just because members of the Liberal Party of Canada justed wanted to play   !


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## stegner (31 Mar 2008)

> commandite scandal



Sorry what is this?


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## armyvern (31 Mar 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> Sorry what is this?



I think it's lost in translation!!  :-\


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## stegner (31 Mar 2008)




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## Yrys (31 Mar 2008)

(sorry, couldn't remember 'commandite' in English  :



			
				stegner said:
			
		

> Sure money helps to advertise but it alone does not decide elections.  If you place restrictions like there are for general elections moneyed influence should not matter really.



Then I guess the "sponsorship scandal" happens just because members of the Liberal Party of Canada justed wanted to play   !


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## Reccesoldier (31 Mar 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> Howabout primaries to select the national party leaders like in the U.S?  Is that a start?



Might be, but as you said with limits in place.


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## vonGarvin (31 Mar 2008)

If we had primaries as in the US model, then wouldn't we have to adopt an adversarial form of government where the executive is not from within the legislative branch?


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## Reccesoldier (31 Mar 2008)

Mortarman Rockpainter said:
			
		

> If we had primaries as in the US model, then wouldn't we have to adopt an adversarial form of government where the executive is not from within the legislative branch?



Why?  If the only thing decided at the convention is the selection of the leader then it will allow more of the members of the party to actually vote for their leader of choice.  Currently each riding only gets to send a small delegation to vote for the leader so only a small minority of card carrying members select the leader.  That's how you get mistakes like Dion's election. Never would have happened if the Liberals had done the kind of traveling road show that the US hopefuls are going through now.


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## armyvern (1 Apr 2008)

All right you french and german speakers ...

You're thread is here dammit!!

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/72543/post-695306.html#msg695306


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## Kirkhill (1 Apr 2008)

If we can skirt the discussion about bunnies and trees for a second (keep this up and you'll be conducting an on-line seminar on tying bowline knots.....or worse).

Stegner, as Reccesoldier and Bomb Chucker said, the MPs still have free will.  They do toe the party line but that is an act of volition.  They do it because they believe it is the right thing to do, or they fear their fates too much or their deserts are not small.  In a distorted "democracy" they sell their votes for their future reward as a minister or a critic and the increased perqs.

In the case of Dion's Liberals there is precious little in the way of deserts that he can offer as a reward.  His coat-tails are as long as the average mess-jacket's.

In fact, far from having coat-tails he is an anchor.  Montreal and Toronto Liberals have a better than even chance of getting elected regardless of who the leader is.  Folks like Bob Rae, Ignatieff, Findlay and Coderre will likely keep their seats even if the Liberals get knocked back to 20 to 50 seats.

As to primaries ...... just more bloody complications and machinations.   Keep in mind the Yanks use the Primary system to vote for their King-pro-tem or Governor-General.  They are filling an entirely different billet.  

Aside from wanting the Senate gingered up to become a house of provinces with single term senators I don't think there is much wrong with our system.  Nothing that regularly changing the government won't cure.

Und Herre Gott Bombchucker, mussen wir wieder Deutsch gelernen?   >


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## vonGarvin (1 Apr 2008)

Reccesoldier said:
			
		

> Why?  If the only thing decided at the convention is the selection of the leader then it will allow more of the members of the party to actually vote for their leader of choice.  Currently each riding only gets to send a small delegation to vote for the leader so only a small minority of card carrying members select the leader.  That's how you get mistakes like Dion's election. Never would have happened if the Liberals had done the kind of traveling road show that the US hopefuls are going through now.


Ah.  Seen.  Thanks.  I was thinking of a radical shift from party elected leaders who then lead their parties in a general election, vice a national election following the primaries in which Canadians en masse vote for PM, vice voting as we do now (for the local representative, who just may happen or not also to be the leader of a federal party).

Cheers!


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## stegner (1 Apr 2008)

> As to primaries ...... just more bloody complications and machinations.   Keep in mind the Yanks use the Primary system to vote for their King-pro-tem or Governor-General.  They are filling an entirely different billet.



But the PM is basically the King pro-tem as long as s/he can command the confidence of the H of C.  S/he has the essentially the entirety of the prerogative powers at his/her diposal.  In fact, many American Presidents have been jealous of the power that Canadian PM's have.   For example, whereas, the American President has to deal with the Senate for foreign policy the Canadian PM can Picard-like proclaim "make it so."  Moreover,  I like the idea of each province having its own primary for selecting national leader and we can group the folks way up north all together.


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## Kirkhill (1 Apr 2008)

Stegner, this discussion could probably be better continued on this thread:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/25692.0.html

It is full of comments on Kings and PMs and GGs and Presidents, not to mention Senators, MPs and Congressmen.  

History is a tale of eternal triangles - three individuals or parties or governments vying for position.  2 out of 3 wins the debate and always leaves 1 out 3 perturbed and looking for friends to reverse the decision.

There is no perfectable system.  There is only the situation we find in the here and now.  And we can be sure it will be different tomorrow and that that solution will be similar to solutions of the past.

Stephane, like Jack and Stephen and Gilles are all just playing with the cards available to them.  Personally I think Stephane has a pretty poor hand.


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