# Cultural Divide



## wst997 (18 Dec 2013)

Just interested in gaining some perspective. It's been 20 years since I left the Canadian Forces. Served for a bit over 6 years in the army. Basically finished up my 2ND B.E. then left for civilian life. I was proud to have served Canada and have great respect for the men and women who serve us today. 

I bit about myself, I was born in Canada to Serbian immigrant parents. Grew up in Vancouver and joined up in 1987. The Canadian military was for me a strange place to be, especially during the 1990's with the Yugoslav wars and Canada's involvement in the region. While there was never any official discrimination, unofficially it was a different story. Especially when you have a Slavic/Serbian surname on your uniform for all to see. 

I read a story once about the experiences of a Jewish officer in the German army, the basic plot is as follows:
It's a story of a Jewish officer in the German army who was highly decorated from the 1st world war. He was proud to be in the army, proud to be German and proud to serve his country. Life was good for him during the Weimar period, but as the tides of history turned he found himself at a crossroads, How could he be proud of the organization that has now become a hostile entity towards him?

It has been said that the Canadian Forces are a cross section of Canadian society; yet my experience was a vast majority of the Canadians that serve/ had served are of old Canadian stock (by that I mean: English, French, Scottish, Welsh, Irish) It least going by surnames. And that there is a cultural divide between urban Canadian cities like Vancouver/Toronto vs. The prairies, rural Ontario/Quebec and the Maritimes.  Yet I wonder as I write this in Vancouver, one of the worlds most multicultural cites; what percentage of these urban Canadians who are not of old Canadian stock represent the members of the C.F.? Of course I assume there are a few poster men and women that the media and advertising guru's like to display. I remember the vast majority being Quebecois, Newfoundlanders,  people from Cape Breton and rural northern Ontario and prairie folk. Many who trace their heritage back many generations of early Canadian settlers.

I wonder if there are any Afghan-Canadians in the C.F.? and what are their feelings/experiences? I wonder if their was any Korean Canadians in the C.F. in the 1950's, I can just imagine that would have been an uneasy place to be!

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of fond memories from my years in service, made a lot of great friends. But in general my view of the Canadian Forces was bittersweet. 

I guess I'm interested in seeing what kind of responses I'll get to my story. At least it will be a good indicator of the social climate in the C.F. And to see if views have changed or remained the same.

P.S. Please don't interpret my writings as polemic or as an attack on anyone, but sometimes you have to colour outside of the politically correct lines in order to tell a story.


----------



## mariomike (18 Dec 2013)

wst997 said:
			
		

> It has been said that the Canadian Forces are a cross section of Canadian society; yet my experience was a vast majority of the Canadians that serve/ had served are of old Canadian stock (by that I mean: English, French, Scottish, Welsh, Irish) It least going by surnames. And that there is a cultural divide between urban Canadian cities like Vancouver/Toronto vs. The prairies, rural Ontario/Quebec and the Maritimes.  Yet I wonder as I write this in Vancouver, one of the worlds most multicultural cites; what percentage of these urban Canadians who are not of old Canadian stock represent the members of the C.F.? Of course I assume there are a few poster men and women that the media and advertising guru's like to display. I remember the vast majority being Quebecois, Newfoundlanders,  people from Cape Breton and rural northern Ontario and prairie folk. Many who trace their heritage back many generations of early Canadian settlers.



A couple of discussions you may find of interest.

Diversity in recruitment
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/106927/post-1162114.html#msg1162114

Urban vs Rural recruits. Do similar patterns exist in Canada?
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/36214.0/nowap.html


----------



## pbi (18 Dec 2013)

What you are saying about lack of diversity still holds true to a great extent in the Regular Force (although there has been change there, too, over the last decade). It was certainly true of the Regular Force of 20 years ago. It is definitely not true of the Res, and hasn't been true for at least a decade, probably more.

Despite the mythology, I think you will find that the majority of Res units are not in "small towns": they are in urban centres of 100,000 or more people. For example, here in Ontario the GTA, Hamilton, Windsor, London, Thunder Bay, Ottawa, Kitchener-Waterloo, Sudbury and Kingston probably represent the great majority of Res unit locations. These are all cities of 100,000 people or much more.

Even in Saskatchewan, most of the units are in either Regina or Toontown: there are only a few in truly "small towns" such as Yorkton, PA and Moose Jaw.

Because of this, I think it is probably fair to say that most Res units do in fact reflect the diversity of the communities they are based in.

That said, I don't think it's a big concern if very small ethnic groups such as Afghans aren't represented in the CF: they aren't really represented anywhere else either, because they are statistically too small to generate much of a demographic that would be inclined to join the military.



> I read a story once about the experiences of a Jewish officer in the German army, the basic plot is as follows:
> It's a story of a Jewish officer in the German army who was highly decorated from the 1st world war. He was proud to be in the army, proud to be German and proud to serve his country. Life was good for him during the Weimar period, but as the tides of history turned he found himself at a crossroads, How could he be proud of the organization that has now become a hostile entity towards him?



That may have been a rather unfortunate choice of an example.....To the best of my knowledge Canada has not started a program of genocide against non-WASPs.



> And that there is a cultural divide between urban Canadian cities like Vancouver/Toronto vs. The prairies, rural Ontario/Quebec and the Maritimes.



This is true, but since IIRC over 80% of Canadians live in urban centres, IMHO it isn't really that big of a deal. Rural people in any country are usually suspicious of "city slickers", and urban folk love to joke about "hicks" and "rednecks" in any culture you might choose to pick. It doesn't make it right, but it doesn't mean we have a unique problem that the CAF has to fix somehow.



> I guess I'm interested in seeing what kind of responses I'll get to my story. At least it will be a good indicator of the social climate in the C.F



Actually, what you will get is a good indication of the social climate at Army.ca . We are a relatively small, self-selected group of folks. What the other 80,000 people in the CAF think is a different issue. That said, I think that the days when a person's race, religion or ethnicity mattered much (whenever those days really were...) are gone.


----------



## wst997 (18 Dec 2013)

Thanks for the feedback, Those 2 links shed some light. 



> Despite the mythology, I think you will find that the majority of Res units are not in "small towns": they are in urban centres of 100,000 or more people. For example, here in Ontario the GTA, Hamilton, Windsor, London, Thunder Bay, Ottawa, Kitchener-Waterloo, Sudbury and Kingston probably represent the great majority of Res unit locations. These are all cities of 100,000 people or much more.



I never thought of the reserve units and where they where located, Reserve units located in urban centres.  I was thinking of my experiences in the Reg Forces and places like Wainwright, Petawawa and Gagetown. I spent a good portion of my time in Petawawa. 




> That may have been a rather unfortunate choice of an example.....To the best of my knowledge Canada has not started a program of genocide against non-WASPs.



What I meant by including the story was to draw parallels about a soldier who had conflicting views, I guess between pride and prejudice. An internal struggle that a person faces. I didn't mean anything as sofar as genocide. I suppose the closest I could come up with was the subtle latent animosity between English and French during the 90's especially since the separation movement was at it's height during that time. It was an unwritten/unspoken vibe that was in the air. 




> Actually, what you will get is a good indication of the social climate at Army.ca . We are a relatively small, self-selected group of folks. What the other 80,000 people in the CAF think is a different issue. That said, I think that the days when a person's race, religion or ethnicity mattered much (whenever those days really were...) are gone.




True enough, I guess the reason I decided to write this post was I ran into an old Warrat Officer that I knew way back when and it brought back memories. He was in his seventies by now but talking with him, briefly as I did, I knew he was of the old guard and his views still remained of that era. 

I guess I just wanted to get some things off of my chest and Army.ca was a good a place as any.


----------



## pbi (19 Dec 2013)

> didn't mean anything as sofar as genocide. I



I got that. I'm just not sure every other reader might.




> I guess I just wanted to get some things off of my chest and Army.ca was a good a place as any.



And you did. And it was a pretty good post.

Your perspective as a person who served 20 years ago is, IMHO, an interesting and useful one. Being able to remember what went before is good.

I know, because I can't remember what day of the week it is any more...


----------



## RADOPSIGOPACCISOP (19 Dec 2013)

pbi said:
			
		

> I got that. I'm just not sure every other reader might.
> 
> 
> And you did. And it was a pretty good post.
> ...



Or what you had for breakfast, non-immediate family members, ect.


----------



## john10 (5 Jan 2014)

As another poster further up stated, in 2014, the reserve units in important urban centres are very diverse. The local communications unit in Montréal should be re-named the 34th Viet Cong Communications Regiment.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (5 Jan 2014)

OK Sunshine,.....I've had enough of you and your racist crap.
Buh-bye.


----------



## dimsum (5 Jan 2014)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> OK Sunshine,.....I've had enough of you and your racist crap.
> Buh-bye.



I'd delete what he wrote too.  I'm not Vietnamese, but that offended me like nothing has in a long time.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (5 Jan 2014)

I see your point but 'hiding' why some folks were banned has made a lot of work for us in the past.
I'd like to think folks would read that and realize we don't take kindly to internet assholes and that army.ca as a whole is much, much better than that.
Bruce


----------



## dimsum (5 Jan 2014)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I see your point but 'hiding' why some folks were banned has made a lot of work for us in the past.
> I'd like to think folks would read that and realize we don't take kindly to internet assholes and that army.ca as a whole is much, much better than that.
> Bruce



Fair enough; understood.


----------

