# Reserves being issues the C7A2 already?



## Lost_Warrior (28 Aug 2005)

http://www.34gbc.ca/Images/gallery/Noble%20Guerrier%202005/LQ2005-6006.jpg

This is a pic from Exercise Noble Guerrier 2005 a couple of weeks ago.  Call me crazy, but isn't he holding a C7A2?


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## Scoobie Newbie (28 Aug 2005)

Its the modified C7 (whatever the hell they call it now).


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## KevinB (28 Aug 2005)

They are C7A2's, they also have the PRR (personal role radio) so I'm guessing they are troops gearing for deployment.

 If not something seriously FUBAR since the PRR are not even in REG inf units beyond deployment.


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## MJP (28 Aug 2005)

Hey I was going to say that Kev......


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## Scoobie Newbie (28 Aug 2005)

What your not typing from the same computer??


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## McG (28 Aug 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> They are C7A2's, they also have the PRR (personal role radio) so I'm guessing they are troops gearing for deployment.


Probably elements of TF 2-06, or a group put together for some CF trg video.  I've only ever seen the PRR and the C7A2 with troops that were working-up or overseas.


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## KevinB (28 Aug 2005)

Which is further alarming sice TF 1-06 does not have all its kit yet...


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## McG (28 Aug 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> Which is further alarming sice TF 1-06 does not have all its kit yet...


It is here.  The engr sqn was issued the wpns on Thursday (if we really were first, it is because we are already going to Wainwright this Monday).


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## KevinB (28 Aug 2005)

We've had our C7A2's since RotoII - the issue is the PVS-14's, PRR and all our other high-speed wiz bang tour kit.


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## Lost_Warrior (28 Aug 2005)

> They are C7A2's, they also have the PRR (personal role radio) so I'm guessing they are troops gearing for deployment.



Actually that pic was taken during exercise Noble Guerre (sp?)  which is basically the 34th brigade concentration.


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## Jungle (28 Aug 2005)

Lost_Warrior said:
			
		

> Actually that pic was taken during exercise Noble Guerre (sp?)   which is basically the 34th brigade concentration.


The pic has nothing to do with 34 CBG. I recognize some of the Troops on there, and they are RegF Inf from the same Batt as me.
There is a reason they have the "deployment" kit...


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## Da_man (28 Aug 2005)

I noticed it too the other day.. found it a bit odd


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## cbt arms sub tech (28 Aug 2005)

Anyone know the status of TF01-06, are you deploying in February, are they're still positions open, what are the plans for the next 6 months?


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## Jungle (28 Aug 2005)

cbt arms sub tech said:
			
		

> Anyone know the status of TF01-06, are you deploying in February, are they're still positions open, what are the plans for the next 6 months?


Use the Chain of Command. If they cannot provide the info, there is no reason we should provide it here.


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## cbt arms sub tech (28 Aug 2005)

Guess you really believe in the chain of command system, sometimes just makes sense to chat with folks that are involved directly compared to some Op's guy checking his PC with 1,000's of emails concerning the tasking!

No offense intended!


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## MJP (28 Aug 2005)

Hmm what exactly is a cbt arms sub tech........anyway I digress.

While TF1-06 isn't confirmed for anything right now....if you don't already have a position that has been identified then your not on the boat.


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## cbt arms sub tech (28 Aug 2005)

Just a nick name I came up with some night out in the field of Wainwright!


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Aug 2005)

The threads is not about TF1-06, and Jungle provided the answer to the original question. It's already veered offline.

I've received a request to reopen this topic. It'll stay open as long as it stays on track. Although, seeing as the initial post was addressed, I'm not sure what more needs to be said on the subject. If there's something other than Reservists receiving the C7A2, it should be addressed in a new thread.


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## reccecrewman (1 Sep 2005)

On the reservists having the C7A2's. Personally I really don't think it's really all that big of a deal.  So what if they have them?  It's not as if the A2 is a vastly superior weapon or anything........... I carried a C7A2 around Kabul for 6 months, and the few times I fired it (on ranges) I actually found that the new cocking handle kinda sucks a**.  Now, this of course is a Crewmans point of view, I don't really know, perhaps the infantry love the weapon........... All I can say is I found it rather cumbersome to cock it and the extended cocking handle tended to get tangled and snagged on every damned thing I passed by.  As well, can't say I really care for the double sided mag release either. (Mind you, I am right handed so lefties probably like it  ;D)  In any event, the Militia doesn't get gucci kit too often, so if they got to play with some during an ex or on build-up training, good for them.


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## KevinB (1 Sep 2005)

Beleive me - WE HATE the A2, we've had them RotoII workups.  

The issue to me was reservists getting PRR's - Jungle clarified who those troops are, and we are aware why our french brothers are training...   

But kit shoudl not be given out to make the Mo feel good - especially items that are in shortage and operational usage only in the regs.  Especially when units gearing up have not gotten them back yet.


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## Britney Spears (1 Sep 2005)

I need to rant a little about the distribution of kit here. It seems to me that there are SO many pieces of useless LCF kit that have been rushed to the reserves, while the real useful stuff is still in short supply. If I were CDS I would stop issuing to reservists: 

1) Tacvest, because it's a useless POS that adds ZERO to capabilities or effectiveness. Even if it wasn't a POS it' s still a minimal improvement over the webbing. The old stuff wasn't the best but it worked.
2) Cadpat uniforms, for the same reason as above (if we're allowed to travel back in time)
3) Goretex jackets, useless, zero increase in effectiveness.
3) CWWB, same as above
4) Definitely the new C7s, C9s, etc. because the benefit would basically be minimal. There's nothing you can do with the A2 that you can't with the A1.

The issue is that even if these items wern't crap, they are still useless because there's no NEED for reservists to have them. They bring NOTHING new to the table, and being marginally warmer or more comfy isn't worth the expense given our current budget. The training value of humping around Wainwright wearing ODs is exactly the same as doing it in CADPAT.
And with the cost savings, I would purchase and issue to the reserves:

1) NVGs, so we can see at night.
2) LADs, so we can shoot at night.
3) PRRs, so we can communicate.
4) The new armour carriers, with dummy armour.

The NVG/LAD combo in particular is a HUGE step forward for the infantry, and by ignoring it we are ignoring literally half the battle. I would happily trade in every other piece of new kit issued since 2000, including all the IECS/ICE and the CADPAT uniforms, for 10x sets of both to each reserve infantry regiment. the CADPAT and ICE stuff adds ZERO to capabilities, I can get along perfectly fine with the old stuff,  the night vision devices basically double it, and the PRRs double again. We should get our priorities straight.


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## KevinB (2 Sep 2005)

Blatently stolen from Brit  

If I were CDS I would stop issuing to the CF

1) Tacvest, because it's a useless POS that adds ZERO to capabilities or effectiveness. Even if it wasn't a POS it' s still a minimal improvement over the webbing. The old stuff wasn't the best but it worked.
2) Cadpat uniforms, for the same reason as above (if we're allowed to travel back in time)
3) Goretex jackets, useless, zero increase in effectiveness.
3) CWWB, same as above
4) Definitely the new C7s, C9s, etc. because the benefit would basically be minimal. There's nothing you can do with the A2 that you can't with the A1.  (unlike Brit I'd get everyone C8's  )

The issue is that even if these items wern't crap, they are still useless because there's no NEED for the Army to have them. They bring NOTHING new to the table, and being neither warmer or more comfy but just lookign cool isn't worth the expense given our current budget. The training value of humping around Wainwright wearing ODs is exactly the same as doing it in CADPAT.
And with the cost savings, I would purchase and issue to the ARMY:

1) NVGs, so we can see at night.
2) LADs, so we can shoot at night.
3) PRRs, so we can communicate.
4) The new armour carriers, with IIIA Armour and Plates (not the crappy stuff they just issued that is frag only - but the IIIA stuff we get overseas)

The NVG/LAD combo in particular is a HUGE step forward for the infantry, and by ignoring it we are ignoring literally half the battle. I would happily trade in every other piece of new kit issued since 2000, including all the IECS/ICE and the CADPAT uniforms, for 10x sets of both to each reserve infantry regiment. the CADPAT and ICE stuff adds ZERO to capabilities, I can get along perfectly fine with the old stuff,   the night vision devices basically double it, and the PRRs double again. We should get our priorities straight.


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## Britney Spears (2 Sep 2005)

Well, I was trying to stay away from criticizing the actual issued kit itself, because my point wasn't that, but rather that we spend huge sums making(well, attempting to, anyway) marginal improvements to kit that wasn't all that bad to begin with, while ignoring the really important stuff. Every item in list 1 were not only complete failiures but never even needed in the first place(except for the new rifle, and new webbing if there's money left over) and a massive waste of money, while we can't get enough of list 2 to even kit out the operational units.  This is especially true for the reservists, because their kit should be geared towards TRAINING VALUE(i.e. no need for real armour or the other expensive operational stuff). 

Hmm, let's see: Having the best webbing in the world to colour coordinate with our uniforms, or the kit to regularly conduct live fire pairs/team/section ranges AT NIGHT?  We go for the first one and F it UBAR while ignoring the second. The reservists around here never stop complaining about the webbing, but nobody ever speaks up about why we can't shoot/scoot at night like every other third world village militia now can . Like I say, priorities......


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## DG-41 (2 Sep 2005)

Trying not to veer too far off the main topic... but I can't say I agree with you about the new webbing and uniforms.

Quick background: I just came out of retirement the very day before SG05; was issued the new kit and went to the ex the same day. So all the "new" stuff is very new to me.

The tacvest I kinda like. For sure it makes mounting and dismounting vehicles way easier, and I find (once adjusted) that it doesn't flop around quite as bad as the old webbing did. It is also  easier to ruck up with it on. It's not perfect - I wish the mag pouches were modular and could be swapped out with other pouches for pers who don't carry a lot of C7/C8 mags, and not having the integral buttpack means you have to carry the old pack separately for your raingear/flashlight/gloves/spare socks - but overall, I found the tac vest easier to live with than the old webbing. Additionally, the tacvest is unlikely to "explode" during a section attack when the little plastic tits on the mag pouch supporting the web yoke decide to stop gripping... which has happened to me before. So maybe not a *huge* step forward, but not a step back either.

The new CANPAT combat clothing though, THAT is awesome. I'm amazed at just how well the disruptive pattern works, but independant of that, they are beacoup more stain resistant, abrasion resistant, dry out just as fast as the old ones... they *are* a big step forward. My only complaint is that moving the rank from the sleeve/shoulder to the centre of mass means you never know what rank anybody is, and the rank itself blends in with the slip-on to the point where even facing someone it can be hard to read. The velcro flag also seems to be ideally positioned to get ripped off every time you put on/off webbing/rucks/slings/ etc.

The new leg pistol holster I also really like a lot. It puts the pistol down in easy reach, it is down and away from the webbing (so it doesn't get all tangled in it) and I REALLY like that it is on your pants belt, so that even if you've taken the webbing off, the sidearm is still strapped to you.

All this kit is good stuff.

Keep in mind too that there isn't an unlimited supply of the old stuff (this includes the weapons as well) Kit wears out, and as stocks grow low, there is an opportunity to make some evolutionary improvements to the new issue. It's not so much that we get all this new Gucci stuff just to be fashionable, but rather that we need to buy replacement stuff to replace old and worn out equipment, and rather than replacing it with more of the same, we managed to work some improvements into it.

DG


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## Britney Spears (2 Sep 2005)

Point taken. I guess I am just dismayed by the amount of griping by the reservists about the distribution of superficial, minimal-improvement new kit, while NVGs and LADs, kit that has been around for 10-15 years and that add huge new capabilities to the soldier, are ignored. When was the last time you reservists did a section live at night? The regs do it all the time(OK, YMMV with that one), and there's no reason why we can't do it with reservists.

Anyways, back to whining about the new rifle.....


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## KevinB (2 Sep 2005)

My biggest bitch is that we squandered tons of money making everyone wear CADPAT - my OD Gortex was next to new - I fail to see why I needed NIB Cadpat Gortex???

 Why not phase in the CADPAT kit (inc regular clothing) when the OD stuff wore out and the system was out of it...

?

Same with the new rifle - send units C8 telestocks and let the weapons techs replace the stocks and buffers - its like a 5min job for each gun.


However Brit I would not generalise so much the Belgian Para's as a Euro example - have no CLAD/LAD or NV setups for their guys (beyond the strict SF guys)


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## Britney Spears (2 Sep 2005)

Mmm, maybe the Belgians spent all their money on the pistols?


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## JimmyPeeOn (2 Sep 2005)

What's with the Triad (POS) on every weapon now anyway? Clearly noone was listening to the Bn's.  Again.  That was a huge waste of money! I know as a Sig, the possibility of mounting a PAQ or surefire on my weapon ever again is next to nil, unless posted to a Bn. / Coy.  I took mine off today, I'll put it back on in 3 months when I hand that piece of trash back in.  I also noticed today I can hang my rifle off my belt by the cocking handle.  Thats not too good.  (no there was no mag in it and my hand was right there, before anyone goes off with the safety thing)

Cheers;
Andrew


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## brihard (19 Jan 2006)

KevinB said:
			
		

> My biggest ***** is that we squandered tons of money making everyone wear CADPAT - my OD Gortex was next to new - I fail to see why I needed NIB Cadpat Gortex???
> 
> Why not phase in the CADPAT kit (inc regular clothing) when the OD stuff wore out and the system was out of it...
> 
> ...



Regarding the phasing in of CADPAT as OD wore out, there's an answer to that obvious enough I'm surprised it didn't occur to you- not all of us reservists are the kind who take the job or the kit compeltely seriously, and I have no doubt that some of the guys I've met would deliberately mangle their old OD kit to get the CADPAT. There are a lot of unscrupulous reservists who see the reserve thing as more or less a social club, and who have no intention of ever going on tour or progressing in the military beyond their last year of university. though I doubt I really needed to tell you that.

On the telestocks, of course, you're absolutely right- For government order each telestock is probably well under $50 bucks. Send each unit  a set of them plus a couple of stock wrenches, and the weapon tech could replace them easily for a minimal cost. I don't particularly give a rats ass if my handguards are green or not- I'll just cam them with some kind of fabric or whatnot if Ir eally need them to be disrupted. Since I've not much faith in the C79 sight anyway, I'm not jumping in anticipation for the C79A2 sight. Sure it'll be a neat new piece of gucci kit that some of the guys will ooh and ahh over, but with the focus on OBUA these days I won't exactly be using it either. Do me a real favour and send the unit a company set of backup iron sights. Supposedly we have the POS plastic ones kicking around in QM somewhere, but I've never seen them issued. I HAVE seen at least one NCO using a personally ordered carry handle iron sight, which strikes me as a much better piece of kit if we aren't going to be supplied with EOTechs.

I'd say it's a safe guess that those of us who DO try and take it seriously would rather wait for the kit so the Regs can get what they need- as I see it, if I manage to get a tour in a few years, I'll get the stuff anyway when I actually NEED it. I will say I admire Britney's opinion about giving the PRes the really efective combat oriented gear listed- it's unusual and heartening to see someone around ehre throw that kind of bone to us PRes folk. The chance to train for realistic night actions would be an invaluable training experience if a group could be assembled with sufficient basic competence to put them through that kind of extra training. As it stands we haven't even used our FATS range at all since september.  :


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## a_himself (19 Jan 2006)

lol why do some of these guys get so excited over getting a rifle which is only different in that it's green in a few places and has an adjustable buttstock.  I highly doubt it's going to change the face of the army as we know it.

I don't know too much about this, with this upgrade did they do more like redo the barrels or whatever it is they do to extend the life of the weapon?  Because I think if all they did was add a green sight, handguards, and pistol grip and make it left handed fire selecting + an extendable buttstock that's quite a big frill.


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## GDawg (20 Jan 2006)

I'm not gonna hold my breath while waiting for the C7A2 in my neck of the woods, most of my chums at work agree that C-8s would do for us, as on some exercises were eat, sleep, and live in the back of our pods. I don't have any issues with the tac vest personally, the only reason I prefer it to the webbing is that I can comfortably drive my vehicle without taking it off!


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