# Domestic Terrorism/Public Attacks on CAF Personnel



## Humphrey Bogart

Potential terror attack in St-Jean-sur-Richelieu on Canadian Forces members, more to follow.



> Driver runs over two Canadian soldiers outside Montreal, police shoot and kill driver after high-speed chase
> 
> Postmedia News | October 20, 2014 | Last Updated: Oct 20 4:04 PM ET
> More from Postmedia News
> 
> A man in his 30s was shot dead by police south of Montreal on Monday morning after two Canadian soldiers were hit by a car. Police say the man fled the scene of the accident when police arrived, was involved in a chase, lost control of his car and flipped it, got out of the car and ran at police with a knife.
> 
> It began just before noon, when the soldiers were hit in the parking lot of a strip mall in St-Jean-sur-Richelieu and the suspect sped off. The regional police followed him and he lost control at an intersection.
> 
> When police caught up, the suspect climbed out of his car, a knife in his hand, and ran at them. Police opened fire and he died.
> Because the local St-Jean-sur-Richelieu police were involved in a fatality, another police force, in this case the Sûrété du Québec, has taken over the investigation.



Courtesy of The National Post
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/10/20/driver-runs-over-two-canadian-soldiers-outside-montreal-police-shoot-and-kill-driver-after-high-speed-chase/

- mod edit to add date to subject line -


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## cryco

hearing this on the radio last hour. Possible terrorist links?
Prayers for the injured men (excluding nut job)


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## George Wallace

Link to CBC

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.


> Driver who hit 2 Canadian Forces members shot by police in Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu
> *Incident was raised in House of Commons as MP asks about 'possible terror attack'*
> CBC News Posted: Oct 20, 2014 2:08 PM ET Last Updated: Oct 20, 2014 3:56 PM ET
> 
> A man in his 30s was shot by police in Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu, Que., earlier this afternoon after he hit two members of the Canadian Forces with his car and led police on a dramatic high-speed chase.
> 
> The soldiers were hit in a parking lot of a commercial plaza at around 11:30 a.m. ET. Both were injured, one critically.
> 
> The incident was raised in the House of Commons this afternoon by Conservative MP Randy Hoback, who questioned Prime Minister Stephen Harper about "unconfirmed reports of a possible terror attack" targeting members of the Canadian Forces.
> 
> Harper would only say he is "aware of these reports" and that they are troubling.
> 
> Police have not named the soldiers but confirmed at an afternoon press conference that they were members of the armed forces.
> 
> Lieut. Guy Lapointe of the Sûreté du Québec said it's too soon to say if the victims were targeted.
> 
> "All I can say is that the theory that this is a deliberate act is part of what we’ll be looking at," he said. "But it’s really too early to speculate at this point."
> 
> Shot by police
> 
> Lapointe said officers from the Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu police spotted the suspect not long after the soldiers were hit and followed the driver for four kilometres.
> 
> The chase ended when the suspect lost control of his car, flipping it into a ditch.
> 
> Police say the man got out of the vehicle and several shots were fired by officers.
> 
> The suspect suffered life-threatening injuries.
> 
> Quebec provincial police are now investigating.




More on LINK.


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## Humphrey Bogart

Conflicting reports on whether the suspect is indeed dead or not...


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## Eye In The Sky

Stay safe out there folks.

A wish for quick and full recoveries to the injured troops.


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## AceBlackFlame

Suspect is dead


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## jollyjacktar

A full and speedy recovery to both injured members.  

As for the death of the (possibly) little Johnny Jihad, no tears here.  Good riddance.


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## Edward Campbell

This is reported, by Vassy Kapelos, _Global National_ parliamentary correspondent, to be the PMO statement:


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## The Bread Guy

Hoping for a speedy and full recovery by the troops involved    

Meanwhile, this from the RCMP:


> This individual was known to Federal authorities including our Integrated National Security Investigations team in Montreal who along with other authorities were concerned that he had become radicalized.
> 
> Out of respect and deference to the ongoing Criminal investigation arising from today's terrible events the RCMP will not comment further except to say that we are working with our law enforcement partners to ensure all avenues of investigation are pursued.


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## Humphrey Bogart

Perps name was Martin "Ahmad" Rouleau and he was a convert who had been radicalized, here is an article from La Presse which details more....

http://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/justice-et-affaires-criminelles/faits-divers/201410/20/01-4810905-acte-terroriste-a-saint-jean-martin-ahmad-rouleau-affilie-au-djihad-islamique.php


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## Marchog

I had had a bad feeling that something like what happened to Lee Rigby would happen soon, what with the ISIS threat and all.

Prayers for their recovery and the comfort of their families.


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## kratz

My prayers and thoughts for a quick and full recovery of our two brothers.


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## Snakedoc

Thoughts and prayers with the family, very difficult to read :S


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## donaldk

Thoughts and prayers to the wounded and their families.  Kudos and much thanks goes to the SQ for ending this idiot's spree - Good riddance.

Aside: MARLANT raised its threat level to medium last Friday -- coincidence?


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## Scoobie Newbie

Weren't we told in the past not to wear uniforms out of work?


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## George Wallace

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> Weren't we told in the past not to wear uniforms out of work?



One was not in uniform.


Clean shaven and clean, trimmed hair makes one not look like a barbarian.


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## Marchog

> Weren't we told in the past not to wear uniforms out of work?


You'd think it wouldn't make a difference, at least for reservists travelling from armouries. Even in civvies (as is required for us newbie cornflakes with "pizza chef" berets), the CADPAT small pack/duffel bag and haircut make it blatantly obvious.


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## Robert0288

Quick recovery to the 2 members, and good shoot SQ.


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## Eye In The Sky

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> Weren't we told in the past not to wear uniforms out of work?



And let's hope we don't go down that road for a handful of reasons...


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## Scoobie Newbie

Perhaps, but if it keeps our families safe I'm not sure I'd be against it.


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## kratz

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> Weren't we told in the past not to wear uniforms out of work?



Policies and enforcement change over time.

I echo EITS sentiment, but if levels are rising, even Marchog will have to do it again.

Sadly, there if this is the plan...even civilian clothing provides no safety, for servinging members or like minded agencies.


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## Scoobie Newbie

I agree. If the bad guys want you hurt bad enough they will eventually find a way despite what we do.


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## Haggis

Robert0288 said:
			
		

> Quick recovery to the 2 members, and good shoot SQ.



Best wishes to our wounded for a speedy recovery.

I believe that it was St. Jean-sur-Richelieu Police who took the decisvie action.

Personally I don't like the idea of "when threatened, the CAF hides in civilian clothes" approach.  We did this after 9-11, too and it caused a backlash.

What we should be doing is being more alert and aware of our surroundings.  How many of us actually take the time to employ basic security precautions when in public?  For example, when was the last time you did a "shoulder check" when using your Interac card in a public place?   Being observant is a life skill whether you're crossing the street or serving abroad.


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## Cloud Cover

I am in agreement with Haggis, basic security practiced by and for all of our citizenry should be emphasized at this point. "they walk among us". 

Condolences to the wounded, I hope there is a speedy recovery. 

And to the family of the accused/deceased, my heart goes out to you. It is tough, no matter what the circumstances, to lose someone that you hopefully have done your best to raise.


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## donaldk

Haggis said:
			
		

> Best wishes to our wounded for a speedy recovery.
> 
> I believe that it was St. Jean-sur-Richelieu Police who took the decisvie action.
> 
> Personally I don't like the idea of "when threatened, the CAF hides in civilian clothes" approach.  We did this after 9-11, too and it caused a backlash.
> 
> What we should be doing is being more alert and aware of our surroundings.  How many of us actually take the time to employ basic security precautions when in public?  For example, when was the last time you did a "shoulder check" when using your Interac card in a public place?   Being observant is a life skill whether you're crossing the street or serving abroad.



Agree with your comment.  Being observant of your surroundings is prudent and commonly is how threats are outed.  I am pondering the civi dress of the day for my unit during work hours, however, another side of me says its cowardly to kick this in at this point and should stick with the uniform.  If civi dress is ordered from my CoC, it'll be done without question. All my guys come to and from work in civis so I am currently not concerned with rush hour comings and goings.

Food for thought:  Over in the UK, HM British Forces and allies attached to them are typically banned from wearing uniforms in Metro London due to these exact types of insurgent aggression towards uniformed military pers.  When I was on my SEMC course in the UK in 2010, my course as the others in the school were explicitly barred from doing rigger runs in London without express permission from both the CFSU(E) Ruislip detachment and the Canadian High Commission of London.


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## Haggis

donaldk said:
			
		

> Food for thought:  Over in the UK, HM British Forces and allies attached to them are typically banned from wearing uniforms in Metro London due to these exact types of insurgent aggression towards uniformed military pers.  When I was on my SEMC course in the UK in 2010, my course as the others in the school were explicitly barred from doing rigger runs in London without express permission from both the CFSU(E) Ruislip detachment and the Canadian High Commission of London.



And, given the threat situation in the UK and the plethora of both transnational and homegrown groups who have come to despise HM's Forces, I agree.  But let's put this into context.  A radicalized amateur see and runs down *a* uniformed soldier and then can't get away from the police and, in the end, elects to bring a knife to a gunfight.  Clearly this was a well planned and brilliantly executed terrorist attack.    But does it demand that the entire CAF now hide?


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## Scoobie Newbie

Perhaps some see it as precautionary. Besides we're pretty blind to the general population as it is. Would we really be despised?


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## Ex-Pat FlagWagger

donaldk said:
			
		

> Food for thought:  Over in the UK, HM British Forces and allies attached to them are typically banned from wearing uniforms in Metro London due to these exact types of insurgent aggression towards uniformed military pers.  When I was on my SEMC course in the UK in 2010, my course as the others in the school were explicitly barred from doing rigger runs in London without express permission from both the CFSU(E) Ruislip detachment and the Canadian High Commission of London.



I can't speak for the UK in recent years (since 2006 basically) but for many years, the threat from Irish terrorism drove us into civvies when off-base. For transit between home and unit we were permitted to wear a civvy jacket over our uniform and  were advised to vary our route. In terms of precautions we were advised to check under our cars for IEDs and even issued with a mirror/flashlight device to allow for easier checking. It was also suggested that uniform items should not, when laundered, be dried on washing lines that could be visible to an observer. There was also a central security operation running that permitted us to report any suspicious activity. Rig runs were rare, although they did happen (the biggest I experienced was in 2002 when 2000+ members of the RNR descended on central London for the Centenary parade on Horse Guards with celebratory drinks afterwards in any pub where we could find room). Ceremonial parades were often not publicised until minute, if at all - obviously participants and their families knew, but the general public were not iinformed. 

We can take some sensible precautions to reduce the risk, but I agree we shouldn't be forced "underground" - if we are, then the extremists have won.


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## kratz

Haggis said:
			
		

> And, given the threat situation in the UK and the plethora of both transnational and homegrown groups who have come to despise HM's Forces, I agree.  But let's put this into context.  A radicalized amateur see and runs down *a* uniformed soldier and then can't get away from the police and, in the end, elects to bring a knife to a gunfight.  Clearly this was a well planned and brilliantly executed terrorist attack.    But does it demand that the entire CAF now hide?



If we choose to go further blind now, it would increase our CAF personal security on mass transit or conducting personal business...but as I alluded to earlier, there may be an increase in collateral damage when like minded agencies in or out of uniform become local "targets of opportunity" As Haggis mentioed, even our PRes are *covered, laugh by VAC*  if they are injured to / from work.


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## George Wallace

Haggis said:
			
		

> ...........  A radicalized amateur see and runs down *a* uniformed soldier and then can't get away from the police and, in the end, elects to bring a knife to a gunfight.  ........



Before we get too far into this, why don't we wait until the investigation is complete and we know if this was a well planned terrorist attack and martyrdom or just some nut job who just happened to be a Muslim.   So far, reports from his neighbours mention that he had become very quiet and reclusive since his conversion.  I would question his sanity, after hearing some of the comments on the case so far.

Just remember to be mindful of your, and others', security in the meantime.


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## BorisK

Not sure if the link will work, but here is a link to the little nutjob's Facebook page :

https://www.facebook.com/Baller.Qc?ref=ts&fref=ts

(Posted just for those curious, analytical types such as myself.)

As an aside : Speediest of recovery both mentally and physically to those injured, and all effected.


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## vonGarvin

One of the CAF members has died.


More here


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## The Bread Guy

General Disorder said:
			
		

> One of the CAF members has died.
> 
> More here


Damn.

Condolences to family, colleagues & friends


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## jollyjacktar

My deepest condolences to the family and friends of the fallen.


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## The Bread Guy

Local (Montreal-area) French-language media are covering a bit more of the driver's background (parents talked to authorities about his behaviour, authorities took away his passport, etc.) than English media so far - more here & here (in French).


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## Oldgateboatdriver

First of all, my deepest sympathy to the family of our fallen comrade.

This does not seem to have come out in the English media but, for those familiar with Garrison Saint-Jean, this is not just another shopping strip mall. On one end of it, the end where the event happened, there is a federal/provincial government building that houses Services Canada offices, some of the local recruiting services, employment offices, and some other military functions ( I can't recall which ones exactly, either transport or family services or the like) as it is just down the road, ~1km from the back entrance of Mega, and about the same distance from College Militaire and its PMQ. Anyway the good people (and obviously the bad ones too) of Saint-Jean know very well that people in uniform walk in and out of there all the time during normal working days. I just don't think it was a coincidence that this nut job went there.


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## jollyjacktar

From the Daily Mail.  Photos as well at story link below.



> *Radicalized Canadian Muslim convert runs down two young soldiers in his car before being shot dead by police*
> - Martin Couture-Rouleau, 25, smashed his car into soldiers in Quebec
> - Reportedly then drove off boasting to 911 about striking in name of Allah
> - Police pursued him until he lost control of car and landed in a ditch
> - Witnesses say got out, charged at cops with knife and was shot
> - Both victim survived, but one was left with life-threatening injuries
> - Couture-Rouleau, a recent convert, posted anti-West messages online
> - Government today announced Couture-Rouleau is a known radical
> 
> ByKieran Corcoran for MailOnlineand Reuters
> 
> Published: 03:31 GMT, 21 October 2014 | Updated: 07:44 GMT, 21 October 2014
> 
> A radicalized Muslim convert ran down two soldiers in his car in an apparent terror attack Monday, before being shot dead by police.
> Martin Couture-Rouleau, 25, sped into the two young soldiers - one uniformed and one not - around 11.30am in Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu, not far from Montreal.  After the impact he sped off, but was chased down by Canadian police, who shot him dead.
> 
> Both soldiers survived the attack, but one is now in hospital with life-threatening injuries.  A Canadian government spokesman today confirmed that Couture-Rouleau, who describes himself as a recent convert online, was on a list of known radicals.  One neighbor told reporters that the man had fallen in with extremist Muslims around a year ago.
> 
> On social media websites, Couture-Rouleau posted polemics attacking Christianity, Western leaders and Israel.  He also published images seemingly to glorify armed jihadist extremists, denigrating Westerners as 'kaffir', a derogatory Arabic term for non-believers.
> 
> After he ran down the two men, Couture-Rouleau called 911 and boasted to operators that he had attacked in the name of Allah, the Toronto Sun reported.  Eyewitnesses told the newspaper how during the police chase which followed, Couture-Rouleau rolled his car, which landed upside-down in a ditch.
> 
> They told how he emerged from the car with a long knife and charged at police - who then opened fire.  One witness said: 'I heard [the police] shout several times, "Get out of the car, get out of the car and raise your hands."  'The man got out and charged towards the policewoman. Then that's when we heard seven gunshots, then the man was on the ground.'
> 
> In a statement released shortly after the incident, a spokesman for Prime Minister Stephen Harper said: 'The individual who struck the two [Canadian Armed Forces] members with his car is known to federal authorities, including the Integrated National Security Enforcement Team.  'Federal authorities have confirmed that there are clear indications that the individual had become radicalized.'
> 
> Earlier in the day, Randy Hoback, a member of Parliament for the ruling Conservative Party, referred in the House of Commons to unconfirmed reports of 'a possible terror attack against two members of the Canadian armed forces.'
> 
> At the time, Harper said the reports were 'extremely troubling' but declined to give more details.  A spokesman for the Surete du Quebec police force said they were investigating whether the soldiers had been specifically targeted.  The Canadian government recently pledged six fighter jets to take part in the U.S.-led campaign against ISIS militants in Iraq.
> 
> Canadian security officials have fretted for years about the potential threat of radicalized young men, especially those traveling abroad to join militant groups including Islamic State in Iraq and Syria. There was no immediate indication Rouleau had traveled abroad.
> 
> Ray Boisvert, former assistant director for intelligence at the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS) spy agency, said he suspects Rouleau was a lone actor who would have been difficult for authorities to stop.  'It reflects what's going on in a very active threat environment. You have far too many targets and far too many active targets,' he said.
> 
> The case bears some parallels to the murder in the UK last year of Lee Rigby, a member of the British Army who was run down then beheaded by two Muslim fanatics.  Michael Adebolajo and Michael Adebowale rammed their car into Rigby as he walked down the street in the Woolwich suburb of London.  They then hacked his head from his shoulders with a meat cleaver and delivered threatening messages, characterizing the murder as a revenge attack, to bystanders recording with their phones.  Both were tried and convicted for the murder and are serving decades-long prison sentences.
> 
> Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2801102/radicalized-canadian-muslim-convert-runs-two-young-soldiers-car-shot-dead-police.html#ixzz3GmZqXsVv
> Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


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## OldSolduer

RIP to the fallen soldier


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## George Wallace

English media (radio) has reported that he was a recent convert to Islam (1.5 years ago) after his 'Spray Wash' business was robbed and he was upset with the Police investigation progress.  It has reported on his FaceBook accounts and adopted Muslim names.  It also reported that his neighbours had seen his withdrawal and reclusive behaviour since his conversion.  This may raise questions about his mental state.

Now we are, no doubt, going to see a lot of discussion as to whether or not we should wait for another similar attack, or just empower the Law Enforcement agencies to start rounding up all those they believe are radicalized and under surveillance.  In a way, our democracy, freedoms and the Laws we live by have hampered our own security.  How far will the general public's attitudes swing towards enabling the agencies that are responsible for our security to do their jobs?  This is where the debate will show how naïve or not the general public is.  The Charter of Human Rights will also come under scrutiny.


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## Lightguns

Hopefully, we do not start rounding up Canadians, that never worked before and left us with stains on our history.  Other than using personal SA, there is not alot we can do.  Not much more than protecting ourselves from ordinary crime and understanding the job makes you a target to certain elements.  My fear is that we will make society less free in order to appease an element that is already afraid of it's own shadow.


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## The Bread Guy

Concise round-up by the _Toronto Star_ re:  what media is saying:


> 1. Martin Rouleau, 25, rammed two soldiers with his Nissan Altima in the parking lot outside the Integrated Personnel Support Centre in Saint-Jean-Sur-Richelieu south of Montreal One died Tuesday of his injuries. The other has minor injuries.
> 
> 2. Police shot and killed Martin Rouleau, 25, of Saint-Jean-Sur-Richelieu, after Rouleau’s car flipped during a police chase about four kilometres from the town.
> 
> 3. Rouleau “was known to authorities” and “authorities were concerned that he had become radicalized,” RCMP spokesman David Falls said.
> 
> 4. Friends told the Star’s Allan Woods he became obsessed with practising Islam and reading news from the Middle East after he said his industrial cleaning company had been robbed about 18 months ago and he felt police failed to investigate.
> 
> 5. Rouleau’s Twitter account followed what Allan Woods characterizes as “a number of ISIS-related users whose focus is the attempt to establish an Islamic caliphate in Syria and Iraq.” The Canadian fighter jets and support planes being sent to Iraq to join a coalition launching airstrikes against the Islamic State are scheduled to start leaving Canadian Forces Base Cold Lake today.


Rouleau's Twitter account has no posts of his own, but here's a list of who he was following.


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## cryco

don't have a twitter account to see who he was following...
Any names worth note in there?


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## The Bread Guy

cryco said:
			
		

> don't have a twitter account to see who he was following...
> Any names worth note in there?


No names that stand out specifically, but mostly other Twitter accounts sharing "the word" about the ISIS-ISIL fight.  Here's a public Twitter list (you shouldn't need an account) showing all the posts of who he would have followed - you'll get the feel quickly enough.


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## cryco

thanks.
Looking through it kinda gives me mixed feelings: sad that people can so corrupt and twist religious teachings and angry that these people exist and feel sorry for some of them that actually turn to this to give some meaning to their lives. How low one can get to take that path.

I also offer my condolences the family and friends of the deceased soldier and a speedy recovery to the injured one.


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## George Wallace

cryco said:
			
		

> Looking through it kinda gives me mixed feelings: sad that people can so corrupt and twist religious teachings and angry that these people exist and feel sorry for some of them that actually turn to this to give some meaning to their lives. How low one can get to take that path.



Unfortunately, the fundamentals of that religion are towards world domination.  There are NO moderate Muslims.


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## cryco

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, the fundamentals of that religion are towards world domination.  There are NO moderate Muslims.



omg, I saw that video, that is ridiculous. On a personal note, i did not observe that behavior from a group of muslims I played ball hockey with. 3 years and no evidence of that. They had more liberal points of view (probably still homophobic, but that's not limited to islam)
i don't want to derail this thread so I won't add anymore.


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## The Bread Guy

This just out from the PM's office:


> Prime Minister Stephen Harper today issued the following statement in response to a deadly incident that occurred in Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu, Quebec:
> 
> “I learned with shock and sadness yesterday that two Canadian Armed Forces members from Canadian Forces Base Saint-Jean Garrison were hit by a man who, according to our national security services, had become radicalized.
> 
> “On behalf of all Canadians, Laureen and I offer our deepest condolences to the family and friends of the CAF member who succumbed to injuries caused by this vicious event.  We also offer our prayers for the recovery of the member who was injured. I would also like to thank first responders on the scene for their efforts.
> 
> “Finally, I want to express that the authorities can count on our full support in order to get to the bottom of this terrible act.”


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## ModlrMike

Condolences to the fallen, and wishes for a speedy recovery to the injured.


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## bridges

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, the fundamentals of that religion are towards world domination.  There are NO moderate Muslims.



I know some moderate Muslims who would disagree with you.      Extremism exists in most creeds, and in those of no creed.  Let's not make this into an anti-religion or anti-any particular religion polemic - instead, let's focus our attention on the behaviour itself, and examining how individuals end up going down that dark path.

Sincere condolences to the family and friends of the fallen soldier.       I can't imagine their anguish.


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## The Bread Guy

This from the Minister of Defence:


> “It was with tremendous sorrow that I learned of the death of a Canadian Armed Forces member who succumbed to his injuries after being the victim of a hit-and-run yesterday in Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu, Quebec.
> 
> “Our thoughts are with the member’s family, friends and colleagues, and we will do whatever we can to provide assistance in their time of need. Another CAF member, injured in the same tragedy, remains in hospital. We wish him a full and fast recovery as we extend our support to the member and his family.
> 
> “We are aware that the suspect was known to police and federal authorities although the circumstances remain under investigation.
> 
> “The Canadian Armed Forces has contributed greatly to the safety and security of those at home and abroad  and has provided the hope of a better future to those who have known horror and death. Our CAF members represent the best of Canada, and to have one die in a senseless act such as this only strengthens our resolve. We will not forget.”


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## Oldgateboatdriver

Name of the victim now released.

R.I.P. Warrant Officer Patrice Vincent, and condolences to family, friends and all those who knew him well.


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## The Bread Guy

And this from the CDS:


> “Yesterday, two members of the Canadian Armed Forces were injured in a hit-and-run incident in Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu, Quebec. One member later died in hospital.
> 
> “Our hearts go out to the family, friends and colleagues of the member and the Canadian Armed Forces are supporting them in their time of grief. We wish our injured colleague a speedy recovery, and we offer our unwavering support to his family as he recuperates.
> 
> “The suspect fled the scene of the incident and was pursued by police. This pursuit ended in the death of the suspect. There has been speculation that this hit-and-run may have been a possible terror attack directed at our members. Police are investigating this incident and will make a determination once their investigation is concluded.
> 
> “The safety and well-being of Canadian Armed Forces members is a primary concern. Security measures are in place at every Canadian Armed Forces installation across Canada. We continually adapt these measures to meet the demands of an evolving security environment, and we will remain vigilant against possible threats.”


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## acen

My sincere condolences to the family, all it takes is a few seconds to undo many years. 

Unfortunately, a reactionary decision has already been handed down. Staff and students of a brigade battleschool have been ordered to wear civilian attire to and from work as well as any time in public.


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## OldSolduer

acen said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, a reactionary decision has already been handed down. Staff and students of a brigade battleschool have been ordered to wear civilian attire to and from work as well as any time in public.


We haven't heard of this out west yet. I refuse to run scared and NOT wear a uniform I've worn for over thirty years. 

Be vigilant and report as necessary.


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## bridges

We did the civvy dress thing for a while during the Gulf War as well, in Ottawa at least.  Then a few years later, when I had occasion to visit a U.S. base for the first time, it was almost a relief being in such a flag-waving culture, where the uniform was seen openly & with pride.  I thus came to realize a psychological effect of having to "hide" our profession.   Personal impression only.  

Commanders should take steps necessary to ensure safety, but if that involves hiding CAF uniforms, I hope that doesn't last too long.


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## Remius

Not a fan of the civy dress thing either.  This might sound weird but when I'm in uniform I tend to have a higher sense of what's going on around me, who's looking at me at how I'm comporting myself.  More self awareness as it were.  Let's not give this loser (a dead one at that) any validity to what he did or that his actions will change our way of doing things.  Vigilance yes.  Decisions based on fear no.  

My concern though is that more of these closet whackos are going to try and pull off something similar.


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## Scoobie Newbie

I agree with all of you however IF going home in civvies keeps my family safer I'm not going to argue.


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## Spimx

acen said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, a reactionary decision has already been handed down. Staff and students of a brigade battleschool have been ordered to wear civilian attire to and from work as well as any time in public.



I am a new recruit, but im proud of my uniform, and i my oppinion not being allow to wear or uniform outside of work is losing the battle. I joined for pride and honor, and hiding my uniform is nothing more than being a coward and ashamed of the uniform.. Of course there are more things behind the policy, but thats my point of view and i just wanted to put it out there.

"Lets not forget" our follen bothers and sisters


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## bridges

Crantor said:
			
		

> This might sound weird but when I'm in uniform I tend to have a higher sense of what's going on around me, who's looking at me at how I'm comporting myself.  More self awareness as it were.



That doesn't sound weird at all; I remember the same heightened awareness.

Again, sincere condolences to WO Vincent's family and friends.


----------



## Jarnhamar

acen said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, a reactionary decision has already been handed down. Staff and students of a brigade battleschool have been ordered to wear civilian attire to and from work as well as any time in public.



What a shitty knee-jerk reaction.


----------



## Loachman

Patrice Vincent was a member of one of our Squadrons.

I offer my condolences to his family and Squadron-mates, and take no small measure of comfort in the fact that his murderer will waste no money in R&Q and "rehabilitation". May his seventy-two virgins all be of the thirty-year-old-male-Star Trek-fan-bacon-eating-and-living-in-their-parents'-basements variety.

Following the 2001 attacks in New York and Washington, we were ordered by the CDS to wear civilian clothes to and from work. I complied. My uniform was protected by a dry-cleaning bag while I was carrying it outside.

They're cheap and plentiful.


----------



## Gunner98

acen said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, a reactionary decision has already been handed down. Staff and students of a brigade battleschool have been ordered to wear civilian attire to and from work as well as any time in public.



This type of 'reaction' demonstrates why the low-level isolated acts gain favor with terrorist organizations. One radicalized madman sacrifices himself after killing a soldier and at least one CAF leader forces his unit into hiding.  Did one of the student's mommies call the CO or RSM to say she did not want her child to be in harm's way?  Next, all veterans with designated license plates will be recommended to order standard provincial license plates for their cars!

Rest in Peace WO!


----------



## blacktriangle

Maybe if we closed the gates to our bases and PMQ's, and checked ID at the gates with armed MP's...

No, let's just hide in our own country and wear civvies. Wearing your uniform inside the gates only...talk about strong and proud. 

I wonder if that will be normal practice by the time I get back to work...probably. 

RIP WO.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Caught CBC Radio this afternnoon and they had on a RCMP spokesman who stated that Rouleau had waited for two hours before he acted. No indications (so far) that he had been in contact with any terrorist group/individuals.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Canada's NRA wannabes (NFA) are having a great time making jokes about banning cars on facebook  :facepalm:


----------



## DAA

Loachman said:
			
		

> Following the 2001 attacks in New York and Washington, we were ordered by the CDS to wear civilian clothes to and from work.



We had the exact same direction back in the late 80's in Toronto due to people in uniform getting "beaten up" while using public transit.



			
				Spectrum said:
			
		

> Maybe if we closed the gates to our bases and PMQ's, and checked ID at the gates with armed MP's...



Believe it or not, this was pretty much common practice 30 years ago.  Coming back on Base, the light was RED, you had to stop and show ID before you were allowed to pass.



			
				Simian Turner said:
			
		

> Next, all veterans with designated license plates will be recommended to order standard provincial license plates for their cars!



PERSEC.........  I think they are neat.  But sorry, I'm not about to "self identify".

It a sad day when we lose any member of the CF.  Condolences to the family.


----------



## Jed

My heartfelt condolences to the families of the injured and deceased soldiers.

What a pussy move, caving in to the rare, idiot Tango wanna be, to have everyone remove their uniform in our own country. To say I am disappointed with this position taken by the CDS and the grownups would be a gross understatement.

Wake up people, you are losing the Psychological battle taking this approach.


----------



## TCM621

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Caught CBC Radio this afternnoon and they had on a RCMP spokesman who stated that Rouleau had waited for two hours before he acted. No indications (so far) that he had been in contact with any terrorist group/individuals.



He was definitely inspired by ISIS and the like. His modus operandi was exactly that suggest by  Abu Khalid Al-Kanadi, a well know Canadian member of ISIS.


----------



## ModlrMike

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. I've received some communications on this issue from my CoC, but nowhere did it state we were not to wear uniform in public. Rather it spoke to Force Protection, INFOSEC, and CyberSEC and PERSEC. To repeat, it did not speak to not wearing the uniform.

And no, I will not repost it here.


----------



## OldSolduer

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Let's not get ahead of ourselves. I've received some communications on this issue from my CoC, but nowhere did it state we were not to wear uniform in public. Rather it spoke to Force Protection, INFOSEC, and CyberSEC and PERSEC. To repeat, it did not speak to not wearing the uniform.
> 
> And no, I will not repost it here.



We have not recieved any direction like that either.


----------



## Remius

Nothing in ottawa that I've seen or heard.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

I'm hoping our serving pers aren't stuck with this stupid shit again. I flat ignored it the last two times, but I considered the type of turtle imitating government we had back then. I don't think the serving government has any of the 'head in the sand' qualities of those previous.

While there are many examples of the ill way they appear to be treating the military and veterans, they still have faith in us and aren't a bunch of surrender monkeys. The PM likes a show of force and is not afraid to spit in a bad guys eye.

On that, I'm behind him.


----------



## George Wallace

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> Mounties tried to intervene in radicalization of suspect in Quebec hit-and-run
> 
> 
> CTVNews.ca Staff
> Published Tuesday, October 21, 2014 6:28AM EDT
> Last Updated Tuesday, October 21, 2014 7:29PM EDT
> 
> The RCMP say they met with the suspect in Monday’s attack on two soldiers in Quebec as recently as Oct. 9 in their ongoing attempts to de-radicalize him.
> 
> Supt. Martine Fontaine, who heads national security for the RCMP in Quebec, told a news conference Tuesday afternoon that 25-year-old Martin Rouleau was arrested in July when he attempted to leave the country, but was released because there was not enough evidence to prove he was planning to fight alongside terrorists overseas.
> 
> There was also no evidence that Rouleau was planning an attack within Canada, Fontaine said.
> 
> She said Rouleau’s passport was seized and the RCMP made contact with his family and the imam of a mosque he attended in an attempt to curb his radicalization process.
> 
> Fontaine said the RCMP hoped to exert a “positive influence” on Rouleau through the imam and family members. When police met with Rouleau on Oct. 9, he suggested that he wanted to take steps to change his life, Fontaine said.
> 
> That meeting ended on a positive note and the RCMP had no indication that an attack was being planned, she said.
> 
> But on Monday morning, less than two weeks later, Rouleau allegedly struck two members of the Canadian Armed Forces with his car in St-Jean-sur-Richelieu, about 50 kilometres southeast of Montreal. Rouleau was subsequently shot and killed by police.
> 
> The incident occurred in a strip mall parking lot around 11:30 a.m. One of the soldiers, 53-year-old Patrice Vincent, later died of his injuries, while the other soldier suffered minor injuries.
> 
> A local patrol officer witnessed the hit-and-run and gave chase as Rouleau fled in his car.
> 
> Police said Tuesday that Rouleau called 911 after the attack to claim responsibility for it.
> 
> After a four-kilometre chase, Rouleau’s car rolled into a ditch. Police said he exited the car and lunged at an officer with a knife before he was fatally shot.
> 
> Public Safety Minister Steven Blaney said Tuesday that the hit-and-run was “linked to terrorist ideology.”
> 
> The Department of National Defence said that Vincent, the deceased soldier, was a warrant officer and a member of the regular armed forces since 1986. He had also worked as a firefighter in a number of cities, including Halifax, Edmonton and Montreal.
> 
> RCMP Commissioner Bob Paulson confirmed Tuesday that the suspect is one of 90 suspected extremists on Canadian soil that the force was monitoring. He also confirmed reports that the Mounties had seized his passport.
> 
> “He was part of our investigative efforts to try and identify those people who might commit a criminal act travelling abroad for terrorist purposes,” Paulson told reporters following an appearance at the House procedure committee.
> 
> Investigators were monitoring him, “along with other suspects,” he said.
> 
> Asked whether military personnel in the town are in danger, Paulson replied: “That’s a larger issue that will be informed by a full investigation, and we have to get on that.”
> 
> Chief of Defence Staff General Tom Lawson said in a statement that the “safety and well-being of Canadian Armed Forces members is a primary concern.
> “Security measures are in place at every Canadian Armed Forces installation across Canada.”
> 
> Lawson added that the Canadian Forces “continually” adapt security measures “to meet the demands of an evolving security environment,” and will be on the lookout for potential threats.
> 
> Blaney told reporters earlier Tuesday that he is “horrified” by the incident, which he called “a terrible act of violence against our country, against our military, against our values.”
> 
> His office later confirmed that Canada has raised the domestic terror threat level in response to “general chatter” from “radical” organizations such as ISIS and al Qaeda.
> 
> “This increase is not the result of a specific threat,” a spokesperson for Blaney said.
> 
> In a statement issued Tuesday morning, Prime Minister Stephen Harper extended his and his wife’s “deepest condolences” to the family and friends of the deceased soldier, and offered “prayers for the recovery” of the one who was injured.
> 
> “I want to express that the authorities can count on our full support in order to get to the bottom of this terrible act,” the prime minister said.
> 
> *‘Radical thoughts’*
> 
> The RCMP said Tuesday they began their investigation into Rouleau in June, after posts on his Facebook page suggested that he was “radicalized to the idea of travelling overseas.”
> 
> Rouleau was arrested in July when he attempted to travel to Turkey, but police did not have enough evidence to keep him in custody. Fontaine said investigators presented the evidence to the Crown, which determined that wasn’t enough to charge Rouleau with any crime.
> 
> Although Rouleau’s passport was seized, Fontaine said there was little else police could do.
> 
> “We could not arrest someone for having radical thoughts,” she said.
> 
> Fontaine said the RCMP did not continue to monitor Rouleau after their Oct. 9 meeting, but were still in contact with his family members, who had noticed “changes” in the suspect and wanted to help him.
> 
> She also said there was no indication that Rouleau was planning to use his car as a weapon.
> 
> “It would have been very difficult to prevent that … because it’s not a crime either to drive a car or be in a parking lot.”




More on LINK.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Let's not get ahead of ourselves. I've received some communications on this issue from my CoC, but nowhere did it state we were not to wear uniform in public. Rather it spoke to Force Protection, INFOSEC, and CyberSEC and PERSEC. To repeat, it did not speak to not wearing the uniform.
> 
> And no, I will not repost it here.



It appears from Acen's post that 1 Reserve Bridage Battle School made the decision to go in civies.

Driving off where I work in uniform or civies makes no difference.  If we hide they've won already.  IMO.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

> A local patrol officer witnessed the hit-and-run and gave chase as Rouleau fled in his car.
> 
> Police said Tuesday that Rouleau called 911 after the attack to claim responsibility for it.
> 
> After a four-kilometre chase, Rouleau’s car rolled into a ditch. Police said he exited the car and lunged at an officer with a knife before he was fatally shot.



Seems to me we can stop using the (very over-used) word "allegedly" any time now.

RIP to our fallen


----------



## Cloud Cover

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> If we hide they've won already.  IMO.



Best quote of the year, IMO. BZ.


----------



## Spimx

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> If we hide they've won already.  IMO.



We CAN'T let them win...


----------



## rmc_wannabe

RIP WO Vincent   .

Condolences to the family and a speedy recovery to the other soldier injured in this cowardly attack.


----------



## Old RM Tech

RIP WO Vincent, My sincere condolences to family. Hopefully a spped recovery tothe other member.

Chimo


----------



## George Wallace

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Is it wise to post this on an open public forum ?



Good Point.

Related posts removed for PERSEC.


----------



## The Bread Guy

More rooting into the "why?" - highlights mine:


> The lawyer for the man who ran down two soldiers south of Montreal this week, killing one of them, described her client as a "very calm, even friendly" man.
> 
> "There was no indication that he would do such a thing," said Patricia Gauthier, who was representing 25-year-old Martin Couture-Rouleau in a child custody case.
> 
> *Couture-Rouleau alleged his ex-wife was preventing him from being able to see their child because he had converted to Islam in April 2013.
> 
> "The applicant is Muslim and believes (his former wife) refuses him access to (their child) for that reason alone," court documents filed Oct. 14 say.*
> 
> He and his former spouse were due in court Nov. 5.
> 
> Gauthier said her client's change in faith was "a way for him to see life as he pleased. He never seemed violent."
> 
> Couture-Rouleau, who changed his first name to Ahmad, also had financial problems.
> 
> He was living with his father in Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu, near Montreal, when he declared bankruptcy in February. He was part owner of an industrial cleaning company that was not doing well, and he owed nearly $22,000, but had just $452 in his bank account, QMI Agency has learned.
> 
> On Facebook and Twitter, he used the names Ahmad Rouleau and Abu Ibrahim AlCanadi. His Twitter profile photo was the ISIS flag. A Facebook page believed to be Couture-Rouleau's included verses from the Qur'an about fighting for Allah, as well as Islamist YouTube clips.
> 
> But that alone wasn't enough to have him charged with anything, police said.
> 
> Mounties confirmed Tuesday they took Couture-Rouleau's passport after he tried to fly to Turkey, a common transit point for Westerners who want to go to Syria. *Police tried to have his parents and his imam from the Al-Imane mosque in Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu talk to him. Even after meeting with him as recently as Oct. 9, police did not think he was a threat* ....


----------



## tomahawk6

My condolences to the fallen warrior and his family.Prayers for a speedy recovery for the injured soldier.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Breaking news, from CBC Radio: A CF soldier has been shot in Ottawa, at the National War Memorial.


Edit to add:

An image (from _Twitter_) of paramedics arriving:







John Ivison (_National Post_) _Tweets_ that it "Looks like one of the soldiers on guard at the war memorial was shot." 

Further edit to add another image, credited to the _Globe and Mail_:






And reports, on CBC News, that shots have been fired on the Hill.


----------



## cryco

Ottawa police sending in tactical squad. Social media said it was soldier. No official confirmation.


----------



## cryco

Ok, confirmed DND soldier 

edit: reporter saw chest wound on solider, also wearing kilt.
edit: 2 shootings reported


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Do they have cameras looking from different angles at the monument property?

Hopefully I'm not wrong and I wish the Soldier a safe and speedy recovery


----------



## Old Sweat

Live radio is reporting shooter not yet in custody and there are reports he ran towards Parliament Hill. He was armed with a rifle.


----------



## George Wallace

No Shooter in custody.

Possibly now on Parliament Hill, which is now on Lock Down.

Shooter has long hair, wearing a long scarf.  (fairly vague discription)  Armed with a long rifle.


----------



## George Wallace

Unconfirmed reports of shots fired at different locations.  (Possibly just folks hearing echos of shots fired at the War Memorial)

Police and Paramedics have not responded to other locations.

Shooter reported to have got in a vehicle, and drove to East Block where he ran into Parliament buildings.


----------



## George Wallace

Prime Minister's motorcade has left Parliament Hill as part of his planned trip to Toronto.

Swat Teams at Parliament Hill.

Live CTV coverage at: http://www.ctvnews.ca/live?autoPlay=true

Live feed shows Paramedics taking a Cpl from the Cameron Highlanders off on a stretcher and performing CPR on him.

Live CBC coverage at:  http://www.cbc.ca/player/LiveStreams/News/ID/2396780283/


----------



## The Bread Guy

recceguy said:
			
		

> Do they have cameras looking from different angles at the monument property?


I hope there are, but there may be more cameras pointed the other way, towards where the government works.


			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> I wish the Soldier a safe and speedy recovery


Same -


----------



## acen

Correction: soldier's status is unknown


----------



## bridges

Live reports on CBC Radio Ottawa are saying that the gunman then went to Parliament Hill, hijacked a car on the hill, drove up to centre block & went inside.  They are saying he has now been killed.  There may be others.


----------



## Halifax Tar

My hope for a speedy recovery for the highlander.


----------



## jollyjacktar

And so it begins.  A speedy recovery to the Cameron.  Hope the shooter is dead.


----------



## Edward Campbell

I'm hearing/reading: one killed and one other arrested. Journalists are very, very confused.


----------



## acen

Just heard it is not a Cameron. Likely working on the national sentry task.


----------



## Robert0288

Still in scramble phase, Twitter is a a mess and filled with junk, live cams don't show anything.  And news outlets are releasing conflicting information.


----------



## OldSolduer

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I'm hearing/reading: one killed and one other arrested. Journalists are very, very confused.



First reports are ususally confused and at odds with other reports.


----------



## Cloud Cover

Is the other sentry accounted for? A media report suggests he took off... After the shooter or someplace else?


----------



## George Wallace

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> Is the other sentry accounted for? A media report suggests he took off... After the shooter or someplace else?



One witness said that he took off at the high port for the park Southeast of the memorial.  

City Hall and other facilities and embassies are all going into Lock Down; yet lots of 'rubberneckers' and journalists in area.


----------



## bridges

We've been told at work that all DND buildings in the NCR are currently on lock-down; nobody in or out for any reason.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> First reports are ususally confused and at odds with other reports.


Indeed - here's a couple of "on the run" consolidated stories so far ....


> Parliament Hill has been locked down in the wake of a shooting incident that left MPs and journalists huddled in secure rooms inside Centre Block as police hunted for the gunman.
> 
> Multiple reports say an unidentified gunman shot a soldier at the War Memorial before fleeing towards the Hill. MPs report seeing a body lying outside the entrance to the Library of Parliament inside Centre Block and that the shooter is dead. Journalists are reporting the building has been locked down and they’ve been gathered in the cafeteria for their safety.
> 
> According to one witness, an NDP MP reported hearing a gun battle outside their caucus door and the smell of gunpowder. Another MP reported hearing 30 shots fired inside Centre Block.
> 
> One witness reports seeing a man exit a vehicle parked on Wellington carrying an object wrapped in blankets, and that at least one of them headed to the War Memorial. Another witness quotes police saying two suspects approached the Hill in a brown car before running inside.
> 
> “I was stopped at a red light at the corner of Wellington St. and Elgin St. … In front of me is a little brown car parked beside the war memorial with no flashers on,” said one eyewitness. “I thought it was odd because there were no flashers. A man exited the front seat and opened the back seat on the passenger side. He pulls out what looked like a pile of blankets and ran around the back of the car to the memorial. I changed lanes to avoid his car, and then saw him running back towards the car with what looked like a pipe …”
> 
> MP John McKay said he was on his way to caucus when MPs were told to evacuate and that they heard multiple shots. He said he saw soldiers heading towards the Hill armed with assault rifles.
> 
> Witnesses report hearing more than a dozen shots fired. They also report seeing a man with rifle, wearing a light-coloured hoodie.
> 
> All MPs and senators are believed to be safe. A spokesman for Prime Minister Stephen Harper says he is off the Hill and is safe. Justin Trudeau and Thomas Mulcair are also reportedly safe ....


ipolitics.ca



> A soldier standing guard at the National War Memorial in Ottawa has been shot by an unknown gunman and there have been reports of gunfire inside the halls of Parliament.
> 
> Ottawa police confirmed they had a call at 9:52 a.m. with a report of shots fired.
> 
> Witnesses reported seeing the gunman running towards Parliament Hill, which is currently under lockdown. Others on the Hill say they heard shots being fired in several different corridors.
> 
> The whereabouts of the gunman are still unknown.
> 
> It is caucus morning on the Hill, meaning most MPs are in the Centre Block.
> 
> Police cars and emergency vehicles are clustered at the foot of the Peace Tower and the Centre Block is being evacuated.
> 
> Emergency responders are still on the scene and paramedics performed CPR on the soldier before he was taken away by ambulance ....


The Canadian Press


----------



## bridges

The news story on cbc.ca has a live feed, updated every few seconds it looks like; lots of pictures of journalists waiting around, but some interesting reports as well.


----------



## Yrys

Police ask that people DO NOT POST pictures of policemen,
as they can be <<geolocaliser>> (found).


----------



## Remius

Stay away from the downtown core.


----------



## Flatliner

bridges said:
			
		

> The news story on cbc.ca has a live feed, updated every few seconds it looks like; lots of pictures of journalists waiting around, but some interesting reports as well.



Direct link to live feed here: http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/ID/2396780283/


----------



## Spimx

Is the soldier alive???


----------



## bridges

The reporters in the area are tweeting that they are being told by police to get inside a building NOW, but they can't, because all the buildings are on lock-down.  Mayhem!  I hope emergency management folks take note.  Meanwhile, this is probably exactly what the shooters wanted.


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from one reporter:


> Julian Fantino: "The sergeant-at-arms, a former Mountie, is the one that engaged the gunman, or one of them at least, and stopped this."


Also, some reports of cell phones not working in, around Parliament.


----------



## Stoker

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> This from one reporter:Also, some reports of cell phones not working in, around Parliament.



Probably overloaded or a security measure.


----------



## dapaterson

Probably overloaded the cell capacity, usually txt messages still work.


----------



## George Wallace

Now reports that a second suspect has been shoot.


----------



## OldSolduer

This is going to take a while to sort out. Let's be patient. 

Reports that all CFBs are closed to the public. I'm not sure what the Armories are doing.


----------



## Flatliner

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Now reports that a second suspect has been shoot.



Do you happen to have a source?


----------



## X Royal

CBC is now reporting all Canadian bases closed to all civilians.
Any confirmation here?


----------



## George Wallace

Flatliner said:
			
		

> Do you happen to have a source?



CFRA 580 AM radio

http://www.cfra.com/


----------



## bridges

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Probably overloaded the cell capacity, usually txt messages still work.



Actually my text messages are coming back 'failed ' now too.


----------



## The Bread Guy

A couple of Twitter lists to follow whazzup here and here - caveat:  it's all shotgun bits o' info from all over right now.


----------



## George Wallace

Police are reporting three shootings.

Event is still unfolding, with concerns now over situation in the large shopping mall within the area, the Rideau Centre.  If you Google the area, there is a lot of possibilities within that 1 km (approx) area.  Google Maps or Google Earth will allow you to get a feel for events in Ottawa.


----------



## cryco

soldier fighting for his life at hospital (ctv national news via CJAD)


----------



## The Bread Guy

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Police are reporting three shootings.


This from OPS Twitter:


> Incidents occurred at National War Memorial, near the Rideau Centre and Parliament Hill this morning.


----------



## sappermcfly

Prayers for the injured soldier and his family. I sincerely hope he makes it.


----------



## Offstar1029

Hopefully the soldier survives this. I can't believe these guy's are that stupid they're beginning terrorist attacks on Canada all they're going to do with this is make Canada become more involved and make all of our allies put in more effort into going at ISIL/ISIS. I really hope they catch everyone who might of been involved with these cases and the injured survive.


----------



## George Wallace

Offstar1029 said:
			
		

> Hopefully the soldier survives this. I can't believe these guy's are that stupid they're beginning terrorist attacks on Canada all they're going to do with this is make Canada become more involved and make all of our allies put in more effort into going at ISIL/ISIS. I really hope they catch everyone who might of been involved with these cases and the injured survive.



Most of these guys are criminally insane.  Complete nut jobs.  Throwbacks to the dark ages of barbarianism.  Nut jobs who have no respect for tolerant societies and human life.


----------



## mike12255

Prayers to the solider, pull through man!


----------



## GR66

Perhaps best not to possibly identify the soldier through a picture until we know that Next of Kin have had a chance to be notified?


----------



## Colin Parkinson

The picture is from a twitter feed and the family likely knows they are on guard duty and we don't know which soldier is hurt and those that do would not say anything.


----------



## bridges

Just because something's on Twitter doesn't necessarily mean it's ok for Army.ca to join in the dissemination.  Media agencies, for example, often refrain from publishing info that's available elsewhere.


----------



## George Wallace

bridges said:
			
		

> Just because something's on Twitter doesn't necessarily mean it's ok for Army.ca to join in the dissemination.  Media agencies, for example, often refrain from publishing info that's available elsewhere.



Photos of the suspect(s) and the suspect vehicle are also circulating on numerous media mediums.  One of the prices we pay for our embracing technology.


----------



## CougarKing

The DND reaction:

Reuters



> *Canada military closes bases after soldier shot in Ottawa: CBC*
> 
> Reuters – 43 minutes ago
> 
> OTTAWA (Reuters) - The Canadian military has closed its bases across the country to the public after a soldier was shot in Ottawa on Wednesday, CBC TV said.
> 
> A suspect was shot and killed inside Canada's parliament buildings in Ottawa after a soldier was shot at the nearby war memorial on Wednesday.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## Conz

I just received word that something involving a terrorist act is happening right now at the Vancouver Hospital. No official reports yet, but I have been told that the hospital is being cleared out and locked down.


----------



## Privateer

From Minister Jason Kenny via Twitter:

"Condolences to family of the soldier killed, & prayers for the Parliamentary guard wounded. Canada will not be terrorized or intimidated."


----------



## Treemoss

Privateer said:
			
		

> From Minister Jason Kenny via Twitter:
> 
> "Condolences to family of the soldier killed, & prayers for the Parliamentary guard wounded. Canada will not be terrorized or intimidated."
> 
> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Condolences to family of the soldier killed, &amp; prayers for the Parliamentary guard wounded. Canada will not be terrorized or intimidated.</p>&mdash; Jason Kenney ن (@kenneyjason) <a href="https://twitter.com/kenneyjason/status/524963481565790208">October 22, 2014</a></blockquote>
> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>



Apparently that statement was retracted regarding the critical soldier.


----------



## newwifey

He has retracted that statement.

3 people sent to Ottawa Hospital, 2 are stable.  Won't release info on soldier, deferring to DND.


----------



## X Royal

I just checked Twitter.
No retraction yet.


----------



## Treemoss

3rd person who came in by ambulance could potentially be a random, unrelated patient, according to cbc.

It was retracted on CTV and CBC live.


----------



## bridges

Haven't heard this through the CoC yet, but CBC (Steve Rukavina) is reporting that CAF mbrs are ordered not to wear uniforms in public unless "on active duty".


----------



## The Bread Guy

Still up @ Tory MP John Williamson's Twitter feed:


> Government Caucus received confirmation shortly ago that one CAF soldier was killed. A moment of silence followed.



Also, NORAD keeping a closer eye out as well - this and this via their Twitter feed:


> We stand w/ our Canadian partners as scene unfolds in Ottawa. We stand resolute in defense of our 2 nations.First responders in our thoughts .... NORAD taking appropriate and prudent steps to ensure adequate posture to respond quickly to any incidents involving aviation in Canada.


----------



## George Wallace

The whole downtown core is on Lock Down.  This affects the Toronto Maple Leafs who are in town to play tonight, who are in Lock Down in their downtown hotel.  This will in all likelihood mean they will not play tonight.  

All the people in the Lock Downed offices will face traffic and bus transportation chaos when they are finally allowed to leave.


----------



## Jamzes

I am working close to downtown Ottawa. Our airport is restricting visitors for local flights.


----------



## ZacheryK

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/soldier-shot-at-war-memorial-in-ottawa

The soldier killed was an Argyll. I knew I recognized the tartan. Rest easy Brother.


----------



## cryco

George Wallace said:
			
		

> The whole downtown core is on Lock Down.  This affects the Toronto Maple Leafs who are in town to play tonight, who are in Lock Down in their downtown hotel.  This will in all likelihood mean they will not play tonight.
> 
> All the people in the Lock Downed offices will face traffic and bus transportation chaos when they are finally allowed to leave.



The game is officially postponed (NHL website)
My condolences to the family and loved ones. RIP soldier.


----------



## Privateer

Conz said:
			
		

> I just received word that something involving a terrorist act is happening right now at the Vancouver Hospital. No official reports yet, but I have been told that the hospital is being cleared out and locked down.



Source?  Details?


----------



## old medic

CBC is already chomping at the bit:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/canadian-soldier-shot-in-ottawa-a-reservist-from-hamilton-1.2808960


----------



## Conz

Privateer said:
			
		

> Source?  Details?



Source: CAF mbr who resides in the area.
Details: I am awaiting further reports/news coverage. I will post updates when I receive them.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

George Wallace said:
			
		

> The whole downtown core is on Lock Down.  This affects the Toronto Maple Leafs who are in town to play tonight, who are in Lock Down in their downtown hotel.  This will in all likelihood mean they will not play tonight.
> 
> All the people in the Lock Downed offices will face traffic and bus transportation chaos when they are finally allowed to leave.



Who cares about hockey or gridlock at a time like this? That's why we're in this mess. No one wants to take any responsibility and just wants to be left alone to their individual pleasures. Maybe while they're missing their hockey game or stuck in traffic for two hours, it'll give them time to reflect on how they themselves let this happen and how naïve they were to listen to the left leaning apologists.


----------



## Harris

Well said.


----------



## Remius

recceguy said:
			
		

> Who cares about hockey or gridlock at a time like this? That's why we're in this mess. No one wants to take any responsibility and just wants to be left alone to their individual pleasures. Maybe while they're missing their hockey game or stuck in traffic for two hours, it'll give them time to reflect on how they themselves let this happen and how naïve they were to listen to the left leaning apologists.



The game has been cancelled.  It is important because it will keep the 20 000 or so people off the road in what is still an active situation.  But I get what you are saying.


----------



## bridges

Crantor said:
			
		

> The game has been cancelled.  It is important because it will keep the 20 000 or so people off the road in what is still an active situation.  But I get what you are saying.



My thoughts exactly.  Disseminating that news is part of a public safety response, at this point.


----------



## George Wallace

recceguy said:
			
		

> Who cares about hockey or gridlock at a time like this? That's why we're in this mess. No one wants to take any responsibility and just wants to be left alone to their individual pleasures. Maybe while they're missing their hockey game or stuck in traffic for two hours, it'll give them time to reflect on how they themselves let this happen and how naïve they were to listen to the left leaning apologists.



Sorry; but I do, as my wife is in Lock Down in the center of all this.


----------



## Ex-Pat FlagWagger

recceguy said:
			
		

> Who cares about hockey or gridlock at a time like this? That's why we're in this mess. No one wants to take any responsibility and just wants to be left alone to their individual pleasures.



I disagree - we are not in this mess because of individual pleasures, we're in this mess because we as a society have neglected to ensure that people we're letting into the country share the same as those already living here.  Like the UK, once an extremist is here, his/her human rights are protected which means that our own laws enacted for our protection are actually being used against us.

I'm not against immigration, I'm actually an immigrant myself - I am, however, against immigrants coming here and attempting to impose their views on the rest of us.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

My immigrant wife says the exact same thing


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Ex-Pat FlagWagger said:
			
		

> I disagree - we are not in this mess because of individual pleasures, we're in this mess because we as a society have neglected to ensure that people we're letting into the country share the same as those already living here.  Like the UK, once an extremist is here, his/her human rights are protected which means that our own laws enacted for our protection are actually being used against us.
> 
> I'm not against immigration, I'm actually an immigrant myself - I am, however, against immigrants coming here and attempting to impose their views on the rest of us.



No need to disagree. Bad rules are put in place by governments, because the people are too wrapped up in themselves to pay attention to what politicians are doing. I'm just going to the lowest denominator.

We 'the society' are made up of those said individuals, who outnumber the rest of us that do care.


----------



## GR66

These individuals may not even be immigrants.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Ex-Pat FlagWagger said:
			
		

> I disagree - we are not in this mess because of individual pleasures, we're in this mess because we as a society have neglected to ensure that people we're letting into the country share the same as those already living here.  Like the UK, once an extremist is here, his/her human rights are protected which means that our own laws enacted for our protection are actually being used against us.
> 
> I'm not against immigration, I'm actually an immigrant myself - I am, however, against immigrants coming here and attempting to impose their views on the rest of us.


Assuming, of course, an immigrant/immigrants did all this.

Meanwhile, a bit of info from Ottawa police:


> The Ottawa Police Service and Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) responded to reports of shooting incidents this morning in the downtown area. Police can now confirm that incidents occurred at the National War Memorial and on Parliament Hill.
> 
> Contrary to earlier reports no incident occurred near the Rideau Centre.
> 
> One shooting victim succumbed to injuries. He was a member of the Canadian Forces.  Our thoughts and prayers are with him and his loved ones.
> 
> Next of kin notification is underway and as such, the victim’s identification will not be released.
> 
> One male suspect has also been confirmed deceased. There is no further update on injuries at this time.
> 
> This is an ongoing joint police operation and there is no one in custody at this time.
> 
> Ottawa residents are asked to stay away from the downtown area while the investigation continues.  If you work in one of the downtown buildings, follow the instructions from the building management you are in.
> 
> A number of RCMP and Federal government buildings are also closed to the public; as is Ottawa City Hall and all Ottawa Police stations.
> 
> The Ottawa Police Service wants to speak to witnesses of today’s shooting incidents.  Witnesses are to call Ottawa Police at 613-236-1222, ext 5493.
> 
> Those with tips regarding the shooting incidents, or those looking to report suspicious activity, can call 613-236-1222 or call 9-1-1.
> 
> Anonymous tips can be submitted by calling Crime Stoppers at 613-233-8477(TIPS), toll free at 1-800-222-8477 or by downloading the Ottawa Police iOS app ....


A news conference is also under way.


----------



## Ex-Pat FlagWagger

recceguy said:
			
		

> No need to disagree. Bad rules are put in place by governments, because the people are too wrapped up in themselves to pay attention to what politicians are doing. I'm just going to the lowest denominator.


 
A disengaged electorate allowing a government free rein is the real cause, and I agree with you on this; accusing the electorate of being wrapped up in individual pleasures as the reason behind this disengagement is subjective - perhaps the partisan nature of politics is why the electorate is disengaged. The problem is disengagement, not personal pleasures.


----------



## Ex-Pat FlagWagger

GR66 said:
			
		

> These individuals may not even be immigrants.





			
				milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Assuming, of course, an immigrant/immigrants did all this.



Agreed - I was generalising and may well be incorrect. However the indigenous religion within Canada is not known for preaching extreme violence - the ideas are being imported from somewhere by someone.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Ex-Pat FlagWagger said:
			
		

> A disengaged electorate allowing a government free rein is the real cause, and I agree with you on this; accusing the electorate of being wrapped up in individual pleasures as the reason behind this disengagement is subjective - perhaps the partisan nature of politics is why the electorate is disengaged. The problem is disengagement, not personal pleasures.



You win. I'm not going to get into a discussion on what terms to use for someone's reason for not caring.


----------



## Bellesophie

I agree about immigrants but I just want to remind everyone that the guy in St-Jean-Richelieu was a Canadian not an immigrant ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

Ex-Pat FlagWagger said:
			
		

> Agreed - I was generalising and may well be incorrect. However the indigenous religion within Canada is now know for preaching extreme violence - the ideas are being imported from somewhere by someone.


And so far, we still don't know the religion or culture of the folks involved, either.  That _may_ yet be the case, and I stand to be corrected if it is, but we don't _know_ yet, do we?

Meanwhile, Tweeted "thinking of you" posts from UK PM David Cameron ....


> I'm appalled by today's attack in Ottawa. I offer my full support to @pmharper and the Canadian people as they deal with this incident.


.... and Australian PM Tony Abbott:


> Today I spoke w/ @pmharper & expressed our condolences & solidarity w/ Canada, following the horrific murder of a Canadian soldier overnight


----------



## George Wallace

Bellesophie said:
			
		

> I agree about immigrants but I just want to remind everyone that the guy in St-Jean-Richelieu was a Canadian not an immigrant ...



And the Shooter in Ottawa has not been identified as to ethnicity and religious background.


----------



## MilEME09

I think the words of President Roosevelt just after pearl harbor hold true here "Today is a day of many shattered realities", my condolences to the members family, and I hope for a swift conclusion to this situation.


----------



## bridges

recceguy said:
			
		

> We 'the society' are made up of those said individuals, who outnumber the rest of us that do care.



As long as disagreeing as to root causes is not confused with not caring!


----------



## Scott

bridges said:
			
		

> As long as disagreeing as to root causes is not confused with not caring!



I think that's enough on that bend. It's understood, it can be read through the thread.

Just trying to keep this concise.

Staff


----------



## Old Naval Guard

I wish to express my deep regret and sorrow for the loss of this young solider, from the Argyle and Sutherland Highlanders of Canada to his family and regiment  Rest easy brother, from an old  infantry militiaman


----------



## bridges

Quote from CBC.ca's live feed:



> "Captain Marie-France Poulin, the public affairs officer at CFB Valcartier says military personnel have received the order to not wear their uniform in public places, unless they are on official duty.
> She says this order applies to soldiers across Quebec, but wouldn't confirm if it applies across Canada.
> Poulin says Valcartier has also tightened security measures at the entrance of the base. A military police unit, that normally patrols the base, will be stationed at the gates permanently. Two security commissionaires are also present.
> Vehicles will have to show identification and could be searched at random. Poulin says she received no indication that the base would be locked down."


----------



## old medic

"Halton Regional police have called a press conference about the shooting at 3 p.m. The Spectator will Live Stream this conference. "

Source: http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4927568-hamilton-argylls-soldier-fatally-shot-at-national-war-memorial/


----------



## The Bread Guy

A little reminder "aide memoire" posted on Twitter by a Canadian Press reporter:


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the Commander-in-Chief:


> Together with all of Canada, Sharon and I are shocked and deeply saddened to learn of today's attacks.
> 
> At this most difficult time, we wish to express our deepest sympathies to the family of the Canadian Armed Forces member who was killed in this crisis. Our thoughts and prayers also go out to those who were injured today.
> 
> As governor general and commander-in-chief of Canada, I am grateful for the professionalism and courage of our security personnel and emergency responders.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Just got ordered to travel to and from work in civies.    I wonder if we will be told to remove bumper sticks and yellow ribbon magnets next.


----------



## Loachman

And those causing, advocating, and cheering these attacks will be laughing at us.


----------



## jollyjacktar

A quote from another site that grabbed my attention.



> The famous Roman orator Marcus Tullius Cicero said: ' A nation can survive its fools and even the ambitious, but it cannot survive treason from within. The traitor moves amongst us, he speaks in accents familiar to his victims and he wears their face and their arguments. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear. The traitor is the plague.'


----------



## Conz

Privateer said:
			
		

> Source?  Details?



I apologize for the jumpy assumption that I received through word of mouth earlier today. The Vancouver Hospital was locked down as a precautionary measure because 12 Field Ambulance (I think) operates from there.


----------



## cryco

identity of victim by the globe and mail
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/parliament-shooting/article21217602/


----------



## Oscar590

Rest in Peace Cpl


----------



## thehare

Sad day to hear a fellow Argyll has fallen. RIP, you will not be forgotten.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

The Epoch Times has posted the alleged name of the shooter. They report that U.S. officials told CBS the gunman's identity. However, I'm not going to post the name until confirmed by Canadian authorities. If you're curious you can go to Epoch Times webpage.


----------



## DAA

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> The Epoch Times has posted the alleged name of the shooter. They report that U.S. officials told CBS the gunman's identity. However, I'm not going to post the name until confirmed by Canadian authorities. If you're curious you can go to Epoch Times webpage.



http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/gunman-in-ottawa-attack-identified-as-michael-zehaf-bibeau-report-1.2065443

Video is now available via open source news reporting ---->  http://www.news965.com/news/news/local/video-catches-shooting-ottawas-parliament-building/nhpqN/


----------



## Offstar1029

RIP Cpl. Cirillo. Hopefully everyone involved with this guy are found and get what they deserve.


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt

Rest in Peace....


Matthew.


----------



## cryco

fantastic. The suspect was born under another name and was a recent convert to islam. (got this on the radio)


----------



## KerryBlue

This came across my twitter feed. 
https://twitter.com/ArmedResearch/status/525019752507658240

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/ISIS?src=hash">#ISIS</a> Media account posts picture claiming to be Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, dead <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/OttawaShooting?src=hash">#OttawaShooting</a> suspect. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Canada?src=hash">#Canada</a> <a href="http://t.co/kWam0E4tyX">pic.twitter.com/kWam0E4tyX</a></p>&mdash; Military Studies (@ArmedResearch) <a href="https://twitter.com/ArmedResearch/status/525019752507658240">October 22, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


----------



## The Bread Guy

Quick & dirty summary of Zehaf-Bibeau*** here.

*** - If you're going to Google-fu this guy, his name has been spelled in some reports is Zehef-Bibeau.


----------



## Privateer

CBC reports:



> Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, the slain gunman in Wednesday’s shooting at the Ottawa War Memorial and Parliament Buildings, had a criminal record in Quebec and British Columbia.
> 
> Court documents obtained by CBC News show that Zehaf-Bibeau pleaded guilty to charges including drug possession and robbery.
> 
> Zehaf-Bibeau, a Canadian born in 1982, was charged with drug possession in 2004.
> 
> He pleaded guilty and was sentenced to 60 days in jail.
> 
> Court documents show he lived in Montreal at the time, in the north-end neighbourhood of Villeray.
> 
> CBC News in Montreal went to the address listed on the court documents. Neighbours said Zehaf-Bibeau had not lived there for years.
> 
> Zehaf-Bibeau was in trouble with the law again in 2011, this time in British Columbia.
> 
> Following a bank robbery in Vancouver, Zehaf-Bibeau was charged with robbery and uttering threats. He was found guilty of the lesser charge of uttering threats.



http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/michael-zehaf-bibeau-slain-ottawa-shooter-had-criminal-record-in-quebec-b-c-1.2809562


----------



## tomahawk6

My condolences to the family of CPL Cirillo.Sgt of Arms Vickers saved numerous lives today.Out of tragedy springs hero's.


----------



## NSDreamer

Rest in peace Cpl Cirillo, you've done your duty


----------



## cupper

Rest in Peace. You have served your country. Those who's memories you were standing guard over will be proud and honoured to provide escort for you in the hereafter.


----------



## cupper

The National War Memorial will be hard to watch this upcoming Remembrance Day, knowing of today's events.


----------



## SoldierInAYear

Rest in peace


----------



## cupper

Condolences to WO Vincent's family. Positive thoughts to the other member and his family.


----------



## cupper

Has anything been said of what happened to the other member of the Honour Guard?


----------



## cameron

Please allow me to express my sincerest condolences to the family of the serviceman who lost his life in this senseless and cowardly act. :cdnsalute:  I have to say it's a sad world we live in when those put on a uniform to defend the rest of us have to be banned from wearing uniforms in public.


----------



## dapaterson

Today is also Diwali, a Hindu festival that signifies the victory of light over darkness, knowledge over ignorance, good over evil, and hope over despair.

As we remember our fallen, let us also strive for the victory of light over darkness, knowledge over ignorance, good over evil, and hope over despair


----------



## Eye In The Sky

"A photographer happened to be taking some photos of a proud soldier this morning. Little did he know he was taking one of this man's last photos. Let us remember him standing tall and on guard. Rest in peace Nathan Cirillo."


----------



## Mab163

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> "A photographer happened to be taking some photos of a proud soldier this morning. Little did he know he was taking one of this man's last photos. Let us remember him standing tall and on guard. Rest in peace Nathan Cirillo."



So sad... Rest in peace Cpl. Cirillo


----------



## George Wallace

Colin P said:
			
		

> Apparently taken just before the shooting. No doubt not given any ammunition during guard duty. From now on they need to either stop the guard or give them the correct tools to do it. My prayers and thoughts to the soldier, his comrades and his family. I hope he makes it.



The above post was removed initially as it identified the Honour Guard before any details were know as to seriousness of Cpl Cirillo's condition.  

Photos are now appearing all over the media of the days events.  Some even capture the Shooter getting into his car at the War Memorial to drive to Parliament Hill around the corner.


----------



## PuckChaser

That picture is circulating social media stating the guard has reposted sentries, although it's during the day and Cpl Cirillo is pictured.


----------



## Hisoyaki

Rest in peace Cpl Cirillo.


----------



## donaldk

Rest in peace Cpl Cirillo, and my condolences to your family.  

I wish a speedy recovery to all other families affected by the tragedies over the last 48 hours.


----------



## dimsum

Once again, Rex Murphy puts into words what Canada is thinking:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N89BAADF1bE


----------



## The_Falcon

Merged both the Montreal and Ottawa incidents as the underlying issues and the aftermath are the same.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright from the _Chronicle Herald_


----------



## Halifax Tar

That is a poignant and appropriate editoral cartoon.  I have never seen one more appropriate than that. 

RIP Highlander


----------



## Edward Campbell

I something going on in Halifax?

This, two minutes ago, from _Twitter_:





Caption, quoted without correcting the capitalization, is: "Police with guns drawn at scotia bank center halifax"


----------



## kratz

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright from the _Chronicle Herald_



A very powerful image E.R.C.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I something going on in Halifax?
> 
> This, two minutes ago, from _Twitter_:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Caption, quoted without correcting the capitalization, is: "Police with guns drawn at scotia bank center halifax"



https://twitter.com/HfxRegPolice

Reports of a man with a gun in the area of Brunswick and Duke Streets


----------



## Offstar1029

This is looking like organized small scale terrorist attacks. A man attacks 2 soldiers in Saint Jean Sur Richelieu killing one injuring the other, not to long after a man attacks and kills a soldier in Ottawa then enters the parliament buildings probably in an  attempt to go after our leaders, and now there's reports of an armed man near Brunswick and Duke streets in Halifax. This can't just be random attacks they're happening to soon after ISIS threatened Canada and are happening to soon after each other. I'm worried if we will be mourning more loss's today and even more worried about what tomorrow will bring.


----------



## c_canuk

Offstar1029 said:
			
		

> This is looking like organized small scale terrorist attacks. A man attacks 2 soldiers in Saint Jean Sur Richelieu killing one injuring the other, not to long after a man attacks and kills a soldier in Ottawa then enters the parliament buildings probably in an  attempt to go after our leaders, and now there's reports of an armed man near Brunswick and Duke streets in Halifax. This can't just be random attacks they're happening to soon after ISIS threatened Canada and are happening to soon after each other. I'm worried if we will be mourning more loss's today and even more worried about what tomorrow will bring.



I feel that it was a couple of unhinged individuals who are lashing out at society. The first may have been spurred on by the announcement, and the other may have been on the edge and the first incident helped push them over. I'm sure any known remainders are well watched at this point and will be picked up should they make any aggressive moves.


----------



## Remius

Offstar1029 said:
			
		

> This is looking like organized small scale terrorist attacks. A man attacks 2 soldiers in Saint Jean Sur Richelieu killing one injuring the other, not to long after a man attacks and kills a soldier in Ottawa then enters the parliament buildings probably in an  attempt to go after our leaders, and now there's reports of an armed man near Brunswick and Duke streets in Halifax. This can't just be random attacks they're happening to soon after ISIS threatened Canada and are happening to soon after each other. I'm worried if we will be mourning more loss's today and even more worried about what tomorrow will bring.



Or it might just well be the work of a deranged individual susceptible to influence from the messaging being sent out by ISIS/ISIL et al and his actions inspired another lone wolf whacko to do the same.  ISIS knows it is very hard to do anything coordinated these days and hopes that what has happened happens a lot more.  

As far as the Halifax thing it may just be a reaction given the events this week.  People are on edge.  I suspect that for the next few weeks any gun related issue is going to be scrutinised and looked at with "terrorism" being a possibility.

Fact is, we don't have all the info just yet.


----------



## MeanJean

There was an unconfirmed report of a man with a rifle in downtown Halifax.  It was reported at 8:30 this morning but has not been found yet.  Buildings downtown have been locked down.  Halifax police are investigating.  

It has almost been three hours since the report, no shots fired and no gunman found. 

Here is a link to the CBC:
http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/nova-scotia/topstories/halifax-police-try-to-confirm-gunman-sighting-in-downtown-1.2810019


----------



## Remius

And this morning on the day after:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-shooting-man-arrested-near-war-memorial-as-stephen-harper-lays-wreath-1.2810121


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

I think everyone should take a deep breath and relax.

After the events of the last few days, and with the police asking citizen to report anything suspicious, a lot of skittish people will report all sorts of things for the next few weeks.

If I look at the picture that was released, the Police seems to be near the Metro Center. This could just as easily have been a sighting of someone carrying a couple of hockey sticks in one of those new fangled bags they make for sticks nowadays. Are the Moossehead practicing today?

Anyway, just relax people.


----------



## MeanJean

Halifax Regional Police tweeted they arrested the man and recovered the firearm. 

https://twitter.com/hfxregpolice/status/525291754225168384

He was arrested near the Metro Center on Argyle street.


----------



## brihard

Whoah. I thought this was going to turn out to be someone getting silly and twitchy. Well done by Hfx Police.


----------



## Jungle

Crantor said:
			
		

> I suspect that for the next few weeks any gun related issue is going to be scrutinised and looked at with "terrorism" being a possibility.



Are we going to do the same with all car-related issues ?


----------



## Eye In The Sky

soccerplayer131 said:
			
		

> HRP: "We can confirm that we have arrested a man on Argyle St. at 11:08am and recovered a firearm on a metro transit bus nearby. Invest. continues."



Article Link

Police make arrest in a weapons complaint

Police Media Releases - Thursday, Oct 23, 2014 at 11:46am

Halifax Regional Police has one person in custody in relation to a weapon complaint in downtown Halifax.

At 11 a.m., several patrol units, including members of the Emergency Response Team, responded to a report of a man who had left a firearm on a Halifax Transit bus. The man left on foot walking southbound on Albermarle Street in Halifax. He was quickly apprehended at 11:08 a.m. near Argyle Street and Carmichael Street without incident and remains in custody. The firearm was recovered from the bus.

This matter remains under investigation and it is unclear at this point if this and the previous incident are related.

We thank citizens for their continued cooperation.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Ref the map below, as SoccerPlayer131 mentioned this is area is pretty close to the HMC Dockyard area.  It is also _very, very close _to the Grand Parade (outlined in orange).


----------



## Remius

Jungle said:
			
		

> Are we going to do the same with all car-related issues ?



If the car is used in a hit and run I suspect we may well see that.

The point is that the country is a bit on edge.  People will jump to conclusions and will try to somehow relate anything no matter how remote to the incidents that happened this week.

That being said, no one can be blamed for doing so when we tell them, to be vigilant.


----------



## The_Falcon

Let's try to refrain from minimizing the actions of perpetrators, by referring to them with blanket vague statements as crazy/un-hinged etc.  People can still have mental health issues, and still have the ability to form rational, logical thoughts.  While murdering soldiers in Canada in broad daylight, may make people leap to the conclusion well they must have been nuts, belies the facts that at least on the surface there was some planning in their attacks, and planning only comes from (somewhat) coherent and rational minds.  Just because we can't or won't ever understand what rationale they used doesn't necessarily make them "crazy" or "unhinged".


----------



## Remius

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Let's try to refrain from minimizing the actions of perpetrators, by referring to them with blanket vague statements as crazy/un-hinged etc.  People can still have mental health issues, and still have the ability to form rational, logical thoughts.  While murdering soldiers in Canada in broad daylight, may make people leap to the conclusion well they must have been nuts, belies the facts that at least on the surface there was some planning in their attacks, and planning only comes from (somewhat) coherent and rational minds.  Just because we can't or won't ever understand what rationale they used doesn't necessarily make them "crazy" or "unhinged".



Well, it wasn't an attempt to minimise any of their actions.  Be they lone wolf inspired planners, ISIS/ISIL, Boco Haram etc etc, I still think they are all a little "un-hinged and crazy".  And by a little, i mean a lot.   And while their minds might be coherant in the sense that they can plan whatever, they are certainly not rational by any stretch or definition as we know it here in this society.

I don't think that we have to be all PC when it comes to these types.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> If I look at the picture that was released, the Police seems to be near the Metro Center.



That picture would have been taken from the Duke Street side/north side of the Metro Center (now the Scotiabank Center), just at the South end of Albemarle Street (just past the Andrei tailor shop).


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Standing Ovation In Parliament for Sgt-At-Arms, Kevin Vickers


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Cars are becoming the weapons of choice in Israel by Israeli-Arabs who wish to harm people.


----------



## The_Falcon

Crantor said:
			
		

> Well, it wasn't an attempt to minimise any of their actions.  Be they lone wolf inspired planners, ISIS/ISIL, Boco Haram etc etc, I still think they are all a little "un-hinged and crazy".  And by a little, i mean a lot.   And while their minds might be coherant in the sense that they can plan whatever, they are certainly not rational by any stretch or definition as we know it here in this society.
> 
> I don't think that we have to be all PC when it comes to these types.



I wasn't directing my post at you specifically, and I am not trying to be PC or suggest anyone be PC.  I think these perps and others like them are cold blooded jackals, but calling them crazy, irrational, etc. deflects any real attempt at gaining an understanding into their (others like them) mindset so we can identify them and deal with them, and it gives the apologists and doves, an excuse to bury their heads and do nothing substantial to address the problem.  There is a very wide gulf between folks like this who may or may not have some sort of personality disorder, and decided to lash out at the world as a result, and the person standing on a street corner arguing with a lamp pole, who all of sudden attacks a random person because they thought they were a demon.  Lumping these 2 and like minded individuals into the same basket as the latter example, won't help stop them.  That's what I am getting at.  

Edit to add this, it was posted on my FB wall as I typed this, and it's exactly what I am talking about.

http://www.dhra.mil/perserec/osg/terrorism/radicalization.htm


----------



## The Bread Guy

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Crantor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, it wasn't an attempt to minimise any of their actions.  Be they lone wolf inspired planners, ISIS/ISIL, Boco Haram etc etc, I still think they are all a little "un-hinged and crazy".  And by a little, i mean a lot.   And while their minds might be coherant in the sense that they can plan whatever, they are certainly not rational by any stretch or definition as we know it here in this society.
> 
> I don't think that we have to be all PC when it comes to these types.
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn't directing my post you specifically, and I am not trying to be PC or suggest anyone be PC.  I think these perps and others like them are cold blooded jackals, but calling them crazy, irrational, etc. deflects any real attempt at gaining an understanding into their (others like them) mindset we can identify them and deal with them, and it gives the apologists and doves, an excuse to bury their heads and do nothing substantial to address the problem.  There is a very wide gulf between folks like this who may or may not of some sort of personality disorder, and decided to lash out at the world as a result, and the person standing on a street corner arguing with a lamp pole, who all of sudden attacks a random person because they though they were a demon.  Lumping these 2 and like minded individuals into the same basket as the latter example, won't help stop them.  That's what I am getting at.
> 
> Edit to add this, it was posted on my FB wall as I typed this, and it's exactly what I am talking about.
> 
> http://www.dhra.mil/perserec/osg/terrorism/radicalization.htm
Click to expand...

Great link, HM - thanks for sharing that.

I think you're both right.  We have to deal with how the "jihad peddlars" flog their poisoned goods and affect vulnerable people while, at the same time, realizing that if we want fewer people to be susceptible to the allure of the jihad peddlars, there's cases where _other_ stuff out there (call it mental illness, call it lack of resilience, whatever) needs fixing.


----------



## Jed

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> I wasn't directing my post you specifically, and I am not trying to be PC or suggest anyone be PC.  I think these perps and others like them are cold blooded jackals, but calling them crazy, irrational, etc. deflects any real attempt at gaining an understanding into their (others like them) mindset we can identify them and deal with them, and it gives the apologists and doves, an excuse to bury their heads and do nothing substantial to address the problem.  There is a very wide gulf between folks like this who may or may not of some sort of personality disorder, and decided to lash out at the world as a result, and the person standing on a street corner arguing with a lamp pole, who all of sudden attacks a random person because they though they were a demon.  Lumping these 2 and like minded individuals into the same basket as the latter example, won't help stop them.  That's what I am getting at.
> 
> Edit to add this, it was posted on my FB wall as I typed this, and it's exactly what I am talking about.
> 
> http://www.dhra.mil/perserec/osg/terrorism/radicalization.htm



Exactly, Let's accurately identify the threat.


----------



## Remius

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> I wasn't directing my post you specifically, and I am not trying to be PC or suggest anyone be PC.  I think these perps and others like them are cold blooded jackals, but calling them crazy, irrational, etc. deflects any real attempt at gaining an understanding into their (others like them) mindset we can identify them and deal with them, and it gives the apologists and doves, an excuse to bury their heads and do nothing substantial to address the problem.  There is a very wide gulf between folks like this who may or may not of some sort of personality disorder, and decided to lash out at the world as a result, and the person standing on a street corner arguing with a lamp pole, who all of sudden attacks a random person because they though they were a demon.  Lumping these 2 and like minded individuals into the same basket as the latter example, won't help stop them.  That's what I am getting at.
> 
> Edit to add this, it was posted on my FB wall as I typed this, and it's exactly what I am talking about.
> 
> http://www.dhra.mil/perserec/osg/terrorism/radicalization.htm



Understood and point taken.


----------



## c_canuk

I feel that acting in an insane manner is the defining characteristic of the insane. 

Insane is merely the description of someone who is not Sane. Sanity is defined and measured by observing ones behaviour and ability to make sane rational choices.

Radicalization will target those that have difficulty making sane rational choices. Therefore, identifying those that have difficulty and treating them as we can is one of many reasonable avenues of response. Ignoring them and leaving them to fester, out of some groundless and misguided fear that harmless disabled persons will be mistreated, is not.


----------



## The Bread Guy

This, from the Queen:


> Prince Philip and I were shocked and saddened by the events in Ottawa earlier today. Our thoughts and prayers are with all those affected.


----------



## The_Falcon

c_canuk said:
			
		

> I feel that acting in an insane manner is the defining characteristic of the insane.
> 
> Insane is merely the description of someone who is not Sane. Sanity is defined and measured by observing ones behaviour and ability to make sane rational choices.



Except the professionals (ie Psychiatrists/Psychologists) don't use the terms sane/insane, crazy/not crazy, because those are fairly vague terms and wide open for interpretation.  They drill down to the root problem/disorder (or at least attempt to).  And btw there is no definition of sanity/insanity in the DSM



> Radicalization will target those that have difficulty making sane rational choices. Therefore, identifying those that have difficulty and treating them as we can is one of many reasonable avenues of response. Ignoring them and leaving them to fester, out of some groundless and misguided fear that harmless disabled persons will be mistreated, is not.



And as the link I just posted pointed out, the how/why does one become radicalized is not entirely clear.  What is clear, majority of the people who are or become radicalized have no mental illness.


----------



## Loachman

Maher: Time to reflect on the courage of our ancestors

By Stephen Maher, Postmedia News October 23, 2014 

When I heard about the shooting, and headed to Parliament Hill, the first sign that something bad had happened was across Sussex Drive from the American embassy, where two Ottawa police officers were standing guard. One of them had an automatic rifle. A third man in green fatigues and a Kevlar vest was with them, with a police dog at his feet.

This, I thought with dismay, will now be a more common sight.

A few minutes closer to the Hill, on Wellington Street, across from the National War Memorial, I run into an ashen-faced John Ivison, of the National Post, who had arrived minutes earlier. He pointed to an older model Toyota Corolla car parked on the street and told me it was believed to be the shooter’s car.

A female police officer was walking down Wellington, putting up a line of police tape, shutting down the area.

Everyone was quiet, serious, tense.

I walked past Langevin building to the corner of Wellington and Metcalfe, across the street from the Hill. This was still minutes after the shooting, and nobody knew what was going on. Police were streaming to the Hill.

A few minutes earlier, a gunman had shot Cpl. Nathan Cirillo, 24, a member of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, a reserve regiment based in Hamilton, Ont.

Bystanders gave him mouth to mouth in a vain attempt to save his life.

After that, witnesses say, the gunman got into the Corolla, drove a very short distance and parked the car on Wellington. He then appears to have somehow got into Centre Block, where he shot and injured two guards before he was shot to death by Kevin Vickers, the gentlemanly former RCMP officer in charge of security on the Hill.

For the next several hours, police streamed to the Hill, organized themselves and slowly set up an expanding security perimeter.

I watched it for hours, being politely and firmly told to move back by very professional Ottawa Police Service officers.

Their calmness and resolve was impressive, and it was impressive to listen to the calm talk of the commanders on their police radios, all of them focused on making Canadians safe.

On the street, as in the Hall of Honour, where security guards bravely rushed the shooter, the courage and resolve of our police is a source of comfort to us when we are scared.

And people were scared. Cell towers downtown were overwhelmed with people calling and texting their loved ones. There were false reports of a third shooting scene at the Rideau Centre, and a fourth, at the Chateau Laurier. Police were scanning the rooftops looking for a shooter at large. At one point, a police officer warned me to get out of the street and take cover behind a building, so that I wouldn’t be a target.

It is too early to say for sure, but it seems likely that this was the work of one disturbed individual, someone swayed by the dark propaganda of extremists on the other side of the world.


It appears to be the same thing with the death of Warrant Officer Patrice Vincent, 53, who was run down in St-Jean-sur-Richelieu, Que., on Monday.

This is a terrible business, and we must mourn the loss of Vincent and Cirillo.

But we had best guard against giving into our fears.

On Wednesday afternoon, the Canadian Forces sent out an email to some members warning them against wearing their uniforms off base, cautioning they shouldn’t be seen to be soldiers when they stop for gas, for instance.

I think we should think of our ancestors. The war memorial that Cpl. Cirillo gave his life protecting was erected in 1938 to commemorate our losses in the First World War.

We lost almost 60,000 people in that war and more than 40,000 in the Second World War. We lost 158 in Afghanistan, not to mention the thousands of Canadian Forces members and veterans who will never fully recover from their physical and psychological wounds they suffered over there.

Our ancestors would not have allowed themselves to be cowed by two or three or 10 incidents like this.

On Wednesday evening, DND told me they have decided to suspend the sentry program in front of the war memorial “until further notice.”

Over time, as our society has become safer, we have become increasingly risk-adverse and fearful.

The blood-soaked maniacs in Iraq who are inspiring these killings know that about us, and they want us to be afraid. They want us to pay attention to their demented rants, to worry about more attacks.

If we give in to our fears, we will be engaged in an impossible quest for perfect security, and our streets will be lined with police. We will spend half our lives going through metal detectors, give up our civil liberties, and we won’t be any safer.

Or we can meditate on the courage of our ancestors, mourn the loss of Warrant Officer Vincent and Cpl. Cirillo, get those sentries back in front of the memorial, and take every opportunity to thank Canadian Forces members for having the courage to wear their uniforms in the street.

smaher@postmedia.com

Twitter.com/@stphnmaher

© Copyright (c) Postmedia Network Inc


----------



## The Bread Guy

This statement from the Sergeant at Arms (who got a standing O in the House today), via Huffington Post reporter's Facebook page:


> I am very touched by the attention directed at me following yesterday’s events. However, I have the support of a remarkable security team that is committed to ensuring the safety of Members, employees and visitors to the Hill. Yesterday, during extraordinary circumstances, security personnel demonstrated professionalism and courage. I am grateful and proud to be part of this team.
> 
> House of Commons Security Services also maintains a close working relationship with its security partners, including Senate Security, the RCMP and the Ottawa Police. This close collaboration made it possible to pull together and quickly restore order in the Parliamentary Precinct and throughout the downtown core.
> 
> I would also like to take this opportunity to thank the Speaker, the Hon. Andrew Scheer, for his leadership and calm demeanour throughout.
> 
> On behalf of all members of the House of Commons Security Services team, I would like to extend our deepest condolences to the family of Cpl. Nathan Cirillo. Our prayers are with you. Our thoughts are also with Constable Samearn Son, who has been with the House of Commons Security Services for 10 years. Constable Son suffered a gun shot wound to the leg. He is in stable condition and expected to make a full recovery.
> 
> As this is an ongoing investigation, I unfortunately cannot comment any further at this time, nor can any member of my Security Services team.
> 
> Thank you,
> Kevin Vickers


----------



## George Wallace

The House's appreciation for a humble man:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152802025764604


----------



## The Bread Guy

George Wallace said:
			
		

> The House's appreciation for a humble man:
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152802025764604


With a further idea for appreciation from a reporter on Twitter:


> Bill C-633, the Kevin Vickers never pays for his own drinks in this country again Act.



Meanwhile (further proof of the "beware early reports" caveat) - highlights mine ....


> Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, the Parliament Hill attacker, was not on the RCMP’s list of 90 individuals under criminal investigation as potential threats, sources tell the Star.
> 
> That distinguishes him from Martin Couture-Rouleau, who ran down two Canadian soldiers Monday, killing one.
> 
> *Zehaf-Bibeau was not formally identified as a “high-risk traveller” but had applied for a passport, a process that was ongoing. However, he hadn’t been issued one because authorities had raised questions about the application.*
> 
> Security sources told the Star that while Zehaf-Bibeau’s name was known to Canada’s spy service, CSIS, he was not considered a high-priority case.
> 
> Erroneous reports Wednesday stated he was listed as one of Canada’s nearly 90 designated high-risk suspects who showed aspirations of travelling to fight abroad and had their passports seized. Couture-Rouleau, 25, who killed Warrant Officer Patrice Vincent in a hit-and-run in Quebec, was arrested at Montreal’s airport in July while on his way to Turkey and his passport taken.
> 
> *Sources say Zehaf-Bibeau had tried to renew an expired passport and had been questioned* — but his case had not been elevated to that of Couture-Rouleau ....


----------



## Remius

More on Bibeau and some of his activities...

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/23/world/ottawa-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1


----------



## Kilo_302

It's troubling to me that the narrative around Justin Bourque never really included "terrorism." He targeted the RCMP and killed 3 officers, and there's every indication he was driven by a far right, anti-government, anti-gun control ideology. I'm far more worried about people like that than home grown "terrorists" of may or may not be of Arab descent. The FBI and the RCMP are also more concerned about right wing militias and the like than Islamic fundamentalism. Somehow this reality seems to be lost on our esteemed mainstream media.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> I understand that may have been appropriate in previous years, but given today's threat environment and what had already happened in Montreal, this seems like complete negligence which resulted in the loss of life of a good young man and father.  Whomever is responsible for the decision needs to take a trip to Hamilton and explain their logic to his son....because if they can't do that with a straight a face, then it was a pure-BS political optics decision and we as a society need to talk about why it was made and damn-well fix it.
> 
> As a civilian, I don't think you guys are obligated to be targets to fifth column terrorists.  On the contrary, I believe we as a civilian body have an obligation to provide you with the authorization to use deadly force if you come under attack on our soil, regardless of the role you happen to be in at that moment.
> 
> Bottom Line:  The world has changed and you guys shouldn't be wearing a bullseye on home turf without any means of protecting yourselves....I hope it doesn't take further casualties before a policy change is made.
> 
> 
> 
> M.



By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by
imitation, which is easiest; and third, by experience, which is the bitterest.

Confucius


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Crantor said:
			
		

> With that logic (and I'm not saying it is wrong) then all CAF members while on duty should be armed with live ammo.  WO Vincent was in uniform and was a target.
> 
> Ceremonial Sentries be they at the cenotaph or rideau hall, as has been mentioned, are performing a ceremonial role.  for anyone who has done it before, you don't exactly have situational awareness.  You are at attentione or at ease the whole time with the occasional "beat" patrol.  At RH at least you either have a wall or sentry box/gate behind you but at the cenotaph anyone can sneak behind any of them.  Imagine someone coming from behind, grabbing a rifle while standing at ease.  Bad enough without it having a full mag.
> 
> Arming them will really achieve very little given their ceremonial duty and weapons either being at the shoulder or at the order.  Reaction, posture etc etc is not very condusive if you are the target of an attack.  As well, firing a C-7 in that kind of public space when defending yourself or others is risky without the approriate training.
> 
> Years ago (they might still be doing it) we had a member in CF order nearby to ensure the sentries were not harrassed etc etc.  Armed with a cell phone.  The more logical solution to current events would be to have an armed guard watching them.  Be it an MP, cop or whoever.  Discreetly out of the way with a pistol.   While it may not prevent someone from doing what they did it might certainly end it sooner.



Add an armed soldier to the location who is there for security.  I am curious how the ceremonial guard at and around Buckingham Palace are kitted, as an example.


----------



## George Wallace

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Actually all on duty CAF members can in fact carry and use firearms http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/ccaps-spcca/cew-ai/pol-aut-eng.htm
> emphasis mine.
> 
> CAF members have the legal/authority via the Criminal Code and Firearms Act.  It's the Commanders in the CAF and internal policies that prohibit it.



I have carried a loaded firearm while on duty in Canada, as a Cbt Arms soldier, under certain circumstances.  It was not the norm, and that is what I am referring to in my post; the norm.


----------



## Remius

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Add an armed soldier to the location who is there for security.  I am curious how the ceremonial guard at and around Buckingham Palace are kitted, as an example.



This isn't gospel. But I have heard that only the guys at the tower of london had any ammo since they actually had a security tasking.  I believe they may also have been armed when the IRA were giving them issues.

Perhaps somebody in the know can chime in. 

Edit:  It should also be noted that the public can get nowhere as near to the Guards in London (fence and gates prevent this) as they can here (one can litterally stand next to them and get in their way.


----------



## cryco

does that mean an armed soldier out in the streets would not get arrested but would get in a world of trouble by their superiors? (assuming he/she wasn't given orders requiring weapons)
What drives the internal policy to not arm all on duty personnel?  Prohibitive cost of arming everyone? Risk of mishap?


----------



## Remius

cryco said:
			
		

> does that mean an armed soldier out in the streets would not get arrested but would get in a world of trouble by their superiors? (assuming he/she wasn't given orders requiring weapons)
> What drives the internal policy to not arm all on duty personnel?  Prohibitive cost of arming everyone? Risk of mishap?



Depends on why they were out with their weapons.  I've seen police stop guys doing BFTs along the canal.  Mostly because they weren't advised what was happening. Unless they are operationally required to or have some sort of training or a specific tasking/job purpose then they are not required to have them.  And yes they could be arrested and charged if it is outside their duties and responsabilities.

We also have plenty of personnal weapons to go around so cost isn't the issue.  We're not a police state either.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

cryco said:
			
		

> does that mean an armed soldier out in the streets would not get arrested but would get in a world of trouble by their superiors? (assuming he/she wasn't given orders requiring weapons)
> What drives the internal policy to not arm all on duty personnel?  Prohibitive cost of arming everyone? Risk of mishap?



Troops don't just walk into work and voila there are weapons laying around.  We have controls, checks and balances we follow.


----------



## a_majoor

A wonderful gesture by the Pittsburgh Penguins:

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2014/10/23/pittsburgh-penguins-play-o-canada-in-show-of-solidarity-after-ottawa-shooting-acknowledged-by-stephen-harper/



> *Pittsburgh Penguins play ‘O Canada’ in show of solidarity after Ottawa shooting; acknowledged by Stephen Harper*
> National Post Staff | October 23, 2014 | Last Updated: Oct 23 2:23 PM ET
> More from National Post Staff
> 
> Screen grab/YouTubeThe Penguins played 'O Canada' in addition to the 'Star-Spangled Banner' before Wednesday night's game..
> 
> The Pittsburgh Penguins were playing an American team in the U.S., but they made it clear their thoughts were with Canada.
> 
> The team played ‘O Canada’ in addition to the ‘Star-Spangled Banner’ before Wednesday night’s game against the Philadelphia Flyers as a tribute to those affected by the shootings in Ottawa that morning.
> 
> The crowd, too, showed its support, singing along loudly as Jeff Jimerson performed O Canada. Here’s Sean Gentille’s video from the press box at the Consol Energy Center:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Both teams include multiple Canadian players, but Canada’s national anthem is generally not played unless a Canadian team is playing.
> 
> “It was a really, really nice gesture,” Penguins captain Sidney Crosby told Sportsnet. “I was following the news all day and it was tough to see [what was happening]. It’s awful to think that people are capable of doing that to each other.
> 
> 
> 
> “But I think we all come together after different incidents … we saw it in Boston, [with] the World Trade Centers, all that stuff. I think that you see people rally behind one another.”
> 
> Hockey fans all across Canada showed their appreciation. Prime Minister Stephen Harper acknowledged the Penguins’ show of solidarity during his speech in Parliament on Thursday morning.
> 
> There were acknowledgments elsewhere in the NHL, including moments of silence in Anaheim and Edmonton.
> 
> It was a particularly emotional performance of O Canada for the Oilers — the only Canadian team in action on Wednesday. (The Toronto Maple Leafs were scheduled to take on the Senators in Ottawa but the game was postponed.) It’s difficult to hear the fans singing along on the broadcast, but this video shot from the stands captures some of it:


----------



## cryco

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Troops don't just walk into work and voila there are weapons laying around.  We have controls, checks and balances we follow.



I assume that if you're staying on base and doing office work you're not getting a weapon, but if you're required to do something off base, say honor guard, driving a VIP around or whatever, that packing some firepower isn't unreasonable.


----------



## DAA

Crantor said:
			
		

> The more logical solution to current events would be to have an armed guard watching them.  Be it an MP, cop or whoever.  Discreetly out of the way with a pistol.   While it may not prevent someone from doing what they did it might certainly end it sooner.



I was thinking the exact same thing.   In my travels throughout the world, anytime I have visited a cenotaph/memorial/Royal Palace/ etc which is accessible to the public and where there is the presence of some form of "Ceremonial Guard", there has always been some form of "dedicated" armed security aparatus within very close proximity.


----------



## The_Falcon

Before we go further down this rabbit hole about armed status, lets remember this is an OPEN forum.  Talking in a broad sense is fine ie, CC and Firearms act say it's ok, DND/CAF policy may say otherwise.   Getting into the SPECIFIC details of who is armed, for what purpose and when, is not on, Period. 

HM
Staff


----------



## George Wallace

cryco said:
			
		

> I assume that if you're staying on base and doing office work you're not getting a weapon, but if you're required to do something off base, say honor guard, driving a VIP around or whatever, that packing some firepower isn't unreasonable.



Let's not let Hollywood be the model of what should or should not be done.  Let's not speculate on what should or should not be done.  In the REAL world, things are done and if you are not privy to what is being done, there often is no need for you to know.  An example is what happened on the 22nd and for those watching the news live, you saw hundreds of Police and Security coming out of the woodwork.  Suffice it to say, there are people doing their jobs to keep you safe.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> It's troubling to me that the narrative around Justin Bourque never really included "terrorism." He targeted the RCMP and killed 3 officers, and there's every indication he was driven by a far right, anti-government, anti-gun control ideology. I'm far more worried about people like that than home grown "terrorists" of may or may not be of Arab descent. The FBI and the RCMP are also more concerned about right wing militias and the like than Islamic fundamentalism. Somehow this reality seems to be lost on our esteemed mainstream media.



Gee lucky me, since I had to convert and gave up on the NDP and despise gun control as enacted in this country I can cover all of the bases at once. Perhaps you can blame the previous governments for lying and attempting social engineering as precursors to such actions? You certainly slathered us with that brush.


----------



## Kilo_302

Colin P said:
			
		

> Gee lucky me, since I had to convert and gave up on the NDP and despise gun control as enacted in this country I can cover all of the bases at once. Perhaps you can blame the previous governments for lying and attempting social engineering as precursors to such actions? You certainly slathered us with that brush.



I'm not sure what you mean. Being against gun control isn't in itself an extreme position (in most cases). Killing to support that position is. This is what Bourque did. HIs Facebook page is full of extremist posts. My point is, why aren't we calling him and people like him terrorists? They seem to target law enforcement and the government, and also appear to have political motivation, regardless of how disturbed they may be. And again, law enforcement agencies across North America have acknowledged groups and individuals with these views pose a greather threat than Islamic terrrorism. My issue is with the media frenzy around this clouding the reality of the situation, as per usual. It's not a problem of the "liberal media" it's a problem with turning this into some sort of existential threat, not questioning Harper's ridiculous statements linking this attack to Iraq etc.


----------



## kratz

I see two parts in the answer to your question Kilo.

1st-the main difference is the agenda (ie: religion) vice grudge.

2nd-and more disquieting, the winner always narrates the story. Even here on Navy.ca, we've tacitly approved saving taxpayer money and the suspect a public platform at trial.

Do I disagree with the outcome of these three examples? No, as there was ongoing active risk to the public at large.
As a society, should we always approve of it? I do not believe so.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

cryco said:
			
		

> I assume that if you're staying on base and doing office work you're not getting a weapon, but if you're required to do something off base, say honor guard, driving a VIP around or whatever, that packing some firepower isn't unreasonable.



The very fact that you don't know tells me you don't need to know.  Sorry.  As mentioned, open forum and all that.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

While his action are extreme and unforgivable, some of the root causes are due to the dishonesty and demonization of firearm owners by past governments leading most to frustration and some to extreme action. I don't see the parties responsible for creating such an environment calling for changes to remove the grievances. You could undercut most of those extremist you worry about, but that would mean giving up sacred cows for some politicians.


----------



## kratz

This is why I prefer to wait until things shake and staighten out.

ref: CBC.ca

*snip*  





> Paulson said the shooter was at an angle where Cirillo would not have been able to see him, and fired twice at Cirillo. He also fired once at Stevenson, but missed.
> 
> Ron Foxcroft, the honorary colonel of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders of Canada regiment, said *Brandon Stevenson briefly chased the shooter before returning to the war memorial to try to revive his wounded friend*.  Foxcroft said he showed "tremendous bravery" in pursuing the shooter, later identified as Michael Zehaf-Bibeau.


 *snip*

Now we know more of what the 2nd sentry was doing and able to do.


----------



## 57Chevy

With this type of savagery happening to our soldiers, my questions is:

Could veterans be at risk ?


I can see this Remembrance Day as a very special one indeed, and I'm hoping these events do not affect the attendance.
(Actually it should increase)

 :yellow:


----------



## 2ndChoiceName

With all the talk about keeping CAF members out of their uniforms in public, I can't wait until Remembrance Day when we're all back in the public eye, uniformed, and in full force.


----------



## George Wallace

2ndChoiceName said:
			
		

> With all the talk about keeping CAF members out of their uniforms in public, I can't wait until Remembrance Day when we're all back in the public eye, uniformed, and in full force.



OK.  The CDS was on CTV today and his statements were to the effect that it is OK to wear your uniform to and from work, at work, etc.  It is NOT OK to wear your uniform to go shopping after work, or to a restaurant or bar after work.  A little common sense goes a long way even if we have seen that common sense is not always so common.


----------



## 2ndChoiceName

I've gotten the sense that that's been more or less the sentiment all along, even before the incident, however I wouldn't be surprised if there were fewer uniformed CAF members in the public. I know that I'm a little wary to wear my uniform to work, seeing as I live in the heart of Toronto and ride the subway 30 minutes to and from work.


----------



## George Wallace

My commentary on the events of the last few days are this:  The two culprits who MAY have thought that they would be remembered forever as martyrs have not seen the resolve of Canadians of all faiths who are praising WO Vincent, Cpl Cirillo and Sgt-at-Arms Vickers as HEROES.


----------



## dimsum

2ndChoiceName said:
			
		

> I've gotten the sense that that's been more or less the sentiment all along, even before the incident, however I wouldn't be surprised if there were fewer uniformed CAF members in the public. *I know that I'm a little wary to wear my uniform to work, seeing as I live in the heart of Toronto and ride the subway 30 minutes to and from work.*



I'd suggest that now is a good time to "show the flag" and wear your uniform to/from work on the TTC.  I think you'd be surprised at the positive reaction.


----------



## 2ndChoiceName

> I'd suggest that now is a good time to "show the flag" and wear your uniform to/from work on the TTC.  I think you'd be surprised at the positive reaction.



I'm conflicted on the issue, although it'll be a little difficult to hide the fact I'm a member tomorrow regardless when I take the subway carrying a fully loaded ruck and my FFO for the exercise this weekend.


----------



## kratz

George Wallace said:
			
		

> OK.  The CDS was on CTV today and his statements were to the effect that it is OK to wear your uniform to and from work, at work, etc.  It is NOT OK to wear your uniform to go shopping after work, or to a restaurant or bar after work.  A little common sense goes a long way even if we have seen that common sense is not always so common.



In the name of safety, it's gone as far as barring cadets and junior rangers from wearing uniforms until Monday...as reported in the MSM.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

CBC Radio is reporting that the firearm used in the shooting was a Winchester 30-30 lever action rifle. The shooter was prohibited from owning any firearms. So it will be interesting to see where he obtained the rifle.


----------



## dimsum

kratz said:
			
		

> In the name of safety, it's gone as far as barring cadets and junior rangers from wearing uniforms until Monday...as reported in the MSM.



While I believe that CF members should wear uniforms, I believe this is prudent for folks like Cadets.  We've signed on the dotted line to defend our country with our lives if necessary (and all of the consequences therein), they haven't.


----------



## kratz

My comment was an observation.

No criticism intended toward the decision.


----------



## The Bread Guy

*"Canadian Muslim groups denounce violence, brace for backlash following Ottawa shooting"*


> Representatives of major Canadian Muslim groups gathered in Ottawa today to reiterate their denunciation of terrorism in the name of Islam at a news conference in Ottawa, even as fear of harassment and violence grows in the Muslim-Canadian community.
> 
> “Our message to anyone who believes in violent extremist ideologies is that you have nothing to do with Islam,” said Ihsaan Gardee, the executive director of the National Council of Canadian Muslims and one of several speakers at Thursday’s event. “You have nothing to do with the noble principles of our faith, which categorically condemn the taking of innocent life.”
> 
> ( .... )
> 
> Muslim community leaders, who placed a wreath at the National War Memorial where the fatal shooting took place, spoke with numerous media outlets as well as other Ottawans about what had taken place in the city, with Imam Sikander Hashmi of the Kanata Muslim Association telling Postmedia News that it was “a very emotional day.”
> 
> “Obviously there’s a lot of sadness and perhaps some anger as well,” Hashmi said in a phone interview. “This is my country. I haven’t lived anywhere else and I call this home, so for someone to spread bloodshed and violence in my homeland, I don’t take that very kindly. I take great offence to that.”  ....








National Council of Canadian Muslims statement attached.


----------



## George Wallace

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> CBC Radio is reporting that the firearm used in the shooting was a Winchester 30-30 lever action rifle. The shooter was prohibited from owning any firearms. So it will be interesting to see where he obtained the rifle.



Yes indeed.  Reports say that he was living in the Ottawa Mission/Shelter near the U of O for the last week or so and I am sure that the management did not permit firearms on the premises.


----------



## cryco

I would venture a guess that some hunter somewhere had his 30-30 stolen at some point from his home. Unless he stole it himself, it was probably all he could afford. Assaulting parliament with a lever action rifle smells of desperation and an ill conceived plan.

ps. apologies for the earlier questions. I will show more restraint in the future.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Sigh one of my friends from way back is questioning whether Cpl Nathan Cirillo existed or was made up.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Colin P said:
			
		

> Sigh one of my friends from way back is questioning whether Cpl Nathan Cirillo existed or was made up.


Sadly, he's not alone -- here's an "alternative" version of events .....


> .... It is very likely that the recent attacks in Canada involved at least one "informant" working for the FBI. Because the FBI uses confidential informants to handle suspects, if a plot is switched "live," the informant will be implicated as an accomplice and the FBI's covert role will remain uncompromised.
> 
> Everything from a mass shooting to a bombing, and even an Operation Northwoods-style false flag attack involving aircraft could be employed to provide Wall Street and London with the support it needs to accelerate its long-stalled agenda of regime change and reordering in both Syria and across the Iranian arc of influence ....


More folks believing the government did this to make it easier to take away individual liberties and look after mysterious business interests on Twitter here.  :Tin-Foil-Hat:


----------



## Remius

Colin P said:
			
		

> Sigh one of my friends from way back is questioning whether Cpl Nathan Cirillo existed or was made up.



Well I'm pretty sure that a few fact checkers at the Argyles' armouries would be more than willing to correct that misconception.  

I shake my head sometimes.


----------



## TCM621

The Sgt at arms. 100% badass.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Colin P said:
			
		

> Sigh one of my friends from way back is questioning whether Cpl Nathan Cirillo existed or was made up.



You need to find a new friend.


----------



## tomahawk6

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/10/23/nathan-cirillo-dogs-photos_n_6037358.html


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

OR you could look at it as a prudent COA.


----------



## Moore

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/10/23/nathan-cirillo-dogs-photos_n_6037358.html



That's real sad. I took a look through his @ncitaly Instragram account and he looked like a great man.


----------



## cupper

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/10/23/nathan-cirillo-dogs-photos_n_6037358.html



The owner - pet bond is strong.

You can't tell me that they don't know something is wrong.


----------



## George Wallace

David Aken tells: How the shooter got into the Center Block


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/23/canada-police-ottawa-gunman-video-passport-motive

Video of the shooter getting into centre block.


----------



## Snakedoc

I just wanted to note that with all the talk about immigration and certain types of immigrants being responsible for these issues earlier in this thread, that both of these incidents were caused by Canadians, born and bred, here in Canada...

Let the xenophobia begin??  Whether we like it or not, there's a bit of it in everyone which we need to keep in check with some sound reasoning and checking of facts...


----------



## George Wallace

Just heard on the radio that the body of Cpl Cirillo's body will travel down the Highway of Heroes today, departing Ottawa at approx 1100 hrs and arriving in Hamilton later this afternoon.

https://www.facebook.com/580CFRA


----------



## Kilo_302

This thread is labelled "domestic terrorism." IS this domestic terrorism? This guy had a lot of problems it appears.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/previous-assessment-described-ottawa-shooter-as-deeply-troubled-but-not-mentally-ill/article21277933/


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/michael-zehaf-bibeau-ottawa-gunman-asked-b-c-judge-to-send-him-to-jail-1.2810683


I'm sure we are all aware of the implications of calling something "terrorism" versus a murder.


----------



## George Wallace

UPDATE:

Cpl Cirillo's body will move by hearse down the Veteran's Memorial Highway (Hwy 416) to Hwy 401 and follow the Highway of Heroes to his home in Hamilton.  The expected departure from Ottawa is now 1300 hrs.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/cpl-nathan-cirillo-s-final-journey-home-will-be-along-highway-of-heroes-1.2069186


The procession will go around Toronto on Hwy 407.  (1135 hrs radio broadcast on CFRA 580 AM)


----------



## The_Falcon

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> This thread is labelled "domestic terrorism." IS this domestic terrorism? This guy had a lot of problems it appears.
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/previous-assessment-described-ottawa-shooter-as-deeply-troubled-but-not-mentally-ill/article21277933/
> 
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/michael-zehaf-bibeau-ottawa-gunman-asked-b-c-judge-to-send-him-to-jail-1.2810683
> 
> 
> I'm sure we are all aware of the implications of calling something "terrorism" versus a murder.



Two things

1) Who are you?  Your profile is blank, and your posts make me suspicious of you motive and intent.
2) What is your point ? Your article says he had drug issues but no mental health problems/disorders.  As well, while he made stupid life choice, he was aware they were stupid and tried to fix that, while on the surface his method seems odd, from personal experience it's really not.  Plenty of folks of limited means, living on the street, and who have already been arrested previously, will commit petty crimes, so they can get in the system and either get treatment, or 3 hots and a cot. None of that suggests he was incapable of formulating a plan and implementing it.  In fact it suggests the opposite is true.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> This thread is labelled "domestic terrorism." IS this domestic terrorism? This guy had a lot of problems it appears.
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/previous-assessment-described-ottawa-shooter-as-deeply-troubled-but-not-mentally-ill/article21277933/
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/michael-zehaf-bibeau-ottawa-gunman-asked-b-c-judge-to-send-him-to-jail-1.2810683
> 
> I'm sure we are all aware of the implications of calling something "terrorism" versus a murder.


There was a bit of discussion starting around here in the thread.  

At one level, it's two issues:
1)  How do you deal with people who are in a state where the only place they feel they have to turn to is jihadi orientation/cults/end of world conspiracies?
2)  How do we deal with the jihad snakeoil salesmen that, as someone smarter than me said on Twitter, like pedophiles, prey on/appeal to the vulnerable mentioned above?

At another level, does intent make a difference?  Even if Bloggins shooting a soldier and shooting up Parliament didn't _intend_ to terrorize or apply violence for political ends because of mental defect, can we ignore how the act is _perceived_?


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> CBC Radio is reporting that the firearm used in the shooting was a Winchester 30-30 lever action rifle. The shooter was prohibited from owning any firearms. So it will be interesting to see where he obtained the rifle.



The picture they showed of him "posing" from the waist up holding a rifle with his scarf on;  I called that rifle a Win 30-30.  Wonder when that picture was taken.


----------



## 2ndChoiceName

George Wallace said:
			
		

> UPDATE:
> 
> Cpl Cirillo's body will move by hearse down the Veteran's Memorial Highway (Hwy 416) to Hwy 401 and follow the Highway of Heroes to his home in Hamilton.  The expected departure from Ottawa is now 1300 hrs.
> 
> http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/cpl-nathan-cirillo-s-final-journey-home-will-be-along-highway-of-heroes-1.2069186



Do you know if it will get off at Keele like it usually does or just continue past Toronto to Hamilton?


----------



## George Wallace

2ndChoiceName said:
			
		

> Do you know if it will get off at Keele like it usually does or just continue past Toronto to Hamilton?



Local radio announcer said that the procession will go around Toronto on Hwy 407.  (1135 hrs radio broadcast on CFRA 580 AM)


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Generally ISIS and AQ get the suicide person to pose for PR pictures. He likely had that picture taken prior to departing and e-mailed it to his contact. It's all good for ISIS, they lose a sh*trat and gain with PR stuff to be used locally and internationally. Likely a local id's people like this to ISIS or directs them to them and helps prep them. The local is kept "clean" and ISIS contact takes over to encourage an attack and offers advice. At worst they lose a few hours of internet time, but with a chance of a big payoff for them with minimal outlay.


----------



## vonGarvin

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Wonder when that picture was taken.



That photo was snapped by a tourist at the time of the shooting.


----------



## 2ndChoiceName

> Local radio announcer said that the procession will go around Toronto on Hwy 407.  (1135 hrs radio broadcast on CFRA 580 AM)



Thanks.


----------



## Kilo_302

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Two things
> 
> 1) Who are you?  Your profile is blank, and your posts make me suspicious of you motive and intent.
> 2) What is your point ? Your article says he had drug issues but no mental health problems/disorders.  As well, while he made stupid life choice, he was aware they were stupid and tried to fix that, while on the surface his method seems odd, from personal experience it's really not.  Plenty of folks of limited means, living on the street, and who have already been arrested previously, will commit petty crimes, so they can get in the system and either get treatment, or 3 hots and a cot. None of that suggests he was incapable of formulating a plan and implementing it.  In fact it suggests the opposite is true.




1) I post on a lot of different threads on this site, if you haven't searched them then you're free to make whatever assumptions you want. My intent is take part in a discussion. 
2) The article said the Forensic Psychiatric Services Commission found he was troubled, but not mentally ill. That's one organization, who let's face it, is probably overworked and understaffed. It's clear he had SOME issues, whether or not they could officially qualify him as being "mentally ill" is not something I can comment on. However, as we find out more, we're getting a picture of a troubled individual with a criminal past and drug problems, and not what I would define as a your traditional politically motivated terrorist. So my point is that referring to this incident as "domestic terrorism" is premature. In the event that he was influenced by ISIS, the question remains, did he have direct contact with them? Did they help him plan this (if there was a plan at all)?  Calling this domestic terrorism sets in motion a whole set of responses which may not be appropriate. Already Mr. Harper has referenced this incident as evidence that we need to expand the powers of CSIS, and need to continue our efforts in Iraq. It's far too early to say whether either of these comments are in any way relevant to this incident. The government is already cynically using this incident to further their own agenda (as governments do), and this thread referring to the attack as domestic terrorism follows that narrative.


----------



## The Bread Guy

General Disorder said:
			
		

> That photo was snapped by a tourist at the time of the shooting.


More on that (and the discounting of initial reports of it being from ISIS/ISIL) here.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

a good article on 2 Sergent of Arms.
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/10/23/jonathan-kay-two-sergeants-at-arms-two-kinds-of-heroism/


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> More on that (and the discounting of initial reports of it being from ISIS/ISIL) here.



I believe you need a subscription.


----------



## 2ndChoiceName

For anyone planning on going, OPP has confirmed that the route will go along the Highway of Heroes, then divert on the 404 to the 407 and continue to Hamilton.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/cpl-nathan-cirillo-s-final-journey-home-will-be-along-highway-of-heroes-1.2069186


----------



## Remius

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> 1) I post on a lot of different threads on this site, if you haven't searched them then you're free to make whatever assumptions you want. My intent is take part in a discussion.
> 2) The article said the Forensic Psychiatric Services Commission found he was troubled, but not mentally ill. That's one organization, who let's face it, is probably overworked and understaffed. It's clear he had SOME issues, whether or not they could officially qualify him as being "mentally ill" is not something I can comment on. However, as we find out more, we're getting a picture of a troubled individual with a criminal past and drug problems, and not what I would define as a your traditional politically motivated terrorist. So my point is that referring to this incident as "domestic terrorism" is premature. In the event that he was influenced by ISIS, the question remains, did he have direct contact with them? Did they help him plan this (if there was a plan at all)?  Calling this domestic terrorism sets in motion a whole set of responses which may not be appropriate. Already Mr. Harper has referenced this incident as evidence that we need to expand the powers of CSIS, and need to continue our efforts in Iraq. It's far too early to say whether either of these comments are in any way relevant to this incident. The government is already cynically using this incident to further their own agenda (as governments do), and this thread referring to the attack as domestic terrorism follows that narrative.



I agree that calling this an act of terrorism might be premature.  I actually get what you are saying.

However I would like to point out that the Government already had plans to expand CSIS' powers before this incident and were already indicating a ramp up of efforts in Iraq before any of this happened.  Homegrown radicalised individuals are a threat though.  Whether they are sick or influenced or whatever they are still a threat.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> I believe you need a subscription.


Worked for me without logging in - in case the link doesn't work for you, here's the piece on where the photo came from.


----------



## Kilo_302

Crantor said:
			
		

> I agree that calling this an act of terrorism might be premature.  I actually get what you are saying.
> 
> However I would like to point out that the Government already had plans to expand CSIS' powers before this incident and were already indicating a ramp up of efforts in Iraq before any of this happened.  Homegrown radicalised individuals are a threat though.  Whether they are sick or influenced or whatever they are still a threat.



Yes the government already had plans on both the CSIS and Iraq fronts, I was just pointing out that Harper has already linked this incident with both directly. So in a sense he is using the death of a soldier to drum up support for his policies, however unrelated they seem (at this point) to the attack.


----------



## Remius

I'm not sure I would go that far yet.  We do know that one of these two guys tried to get to Syria and was stopped from travelling and was being monitered but nothing really could be done.  The next one is a bit harder to tell because info is conflicting as of yet.

I don't think he's using the death of a soldier as much as he's using the acts of a few extreme individuals that we've been warned about for some time now and that litteraly attacked our seat of government.


----------



## The_Falcon

Crantor said:
			
		

> I don't think he's using the death of a soldier as much as he's using the acts of a few extreme individuals that *we've been warned about for some time now and that litteraly attacked our seat of government*.



Ref the bolded part, I think that is precisely why there is a lot of shock and anger, particular from the "mushy/moderate middle" of Canadian society, who scoffed at the notion of attacking parliament/behead the Prime Minister was even remotely possible and just some outlandish fantasy when the "Toronto 18" were arrested.  They are now seriously rethinking their position after only ONE person managed to penetrate deep into parliament and get off several rounds before being stopped.


----------



## Blake Castelein

I just saw on CBC news that the shooter had told his aunt the night before that he had converted to Islam and that he was recently trying to obtain a Libyan passport. I know that's a few borders away from ISIL/ISIS but I think that's still an apparent link nonetheless. (I am just a civi though so I think you guys would be a better judge on this).


----------



## The Bread Guy

Crantor said:
			
		

> I'm not sure I would go that far yet.  We do know that one of these two guys tried to get to Syria and was stopped from travelling and was being monitered but nothing really could be done.  The next one is a bit harder to tell because *info is conflicting as of yet*.


In fact, here's what BBC is saying about what our Foreign Affairs Minister's saying:


> There is no evidence so far that a gunman who attacked Canada's parliament had links to Middle Eastern Islamist extremists, the government has said.
> 
> Foreign Minister John Baird told the BBC gunman Michael Zehaf-Bibeau was "certainly radicalised", but was not on a list of high-risk individuals.
> 
> (....)
> 
> Mr Baird told the BBC there were no substantiated claims yet that Zehaf-Bibeau was associated with Islamic State.
> 
> Mr Baird said he was "tremendously concerned about the number of Canadians who are radicalised and are fighting in Syria or Iraq, but we don't have any evidence to link the two at this stage" ....


----------



## Edward Campbell

I think we need to be conscious of the fact - and _I think_ it is a _*fact*_ - that the _radicalization process_ is very loose, very informal. Yes, indeed, there still are several fiery imans teaching _jihad_ in their mosques ...






London-based imam Abu Hamza al-Masri
[Source: Ian Waldie / Reuters / Corbis]

... but it is slick, English language propaganda, in print but, mostly, online, that is fueling the current generation of young "self radicalized" terrorists.

Incidents like this, the vanadalization of a mosque in Cold Lake ...






... actually help rather then hinder the "self radicalization" of young Muslims.


----------



## Kilo_302

Crantor said:
			
		

> I'm not sure I would go that far yet.  We do know that one of these two guys tried to get to Syria and was stopped from travelling and was being monitered but nothing really could be done.  The next one is a bit harder to tell because info is conflicting as of yet.
> 
> I don't think he's using the death of a soldier as much as he's using the acts of a few extreme individuals that we've been warned about for some time now and that litteraly attacked our seat of government.




Pierre Poilievre is already bragging that he warned us about this a week ago on his FB page. I think we can say this is a government that is trying to make political hay of a tragic incident. Harper has a notoriously tight leash. If he didn't think it was appropriate for Pierre to be saying this stuff, he wouldn't be saying it. And again, directly referencing CSIS and our foreign policy in his response to this attack is at the very least insinuating a connection. There is no evidence of such a connection yet, so this is irresponsible and manipulative. 

https://www.facebook.com/PierrePoilievreMP?hc_location=timeline

And yet more about the shooter:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/10/23/details-of-michael-zehaf-bibeaus-life-paint-a-picture-of-a-man-troubled-by-drugs-and-crime/


----------



## The Bread Guy

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Incidents like this, the vanadalization of a mosque in Cold Lake ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... actually help rather then hinder the "self radicalization" of young Muslims.


Here's  Minister for Multiculturalism Jason Kenney's response:


> “Earlier today vandals spray painted the Cold Lake Mosque in Cold Lake, Alberta with hate messages. This cowardly act is unacceptable and has no place in Canada.
> 
> “Canada is a strong, peaceful, pluralistic nation, and Canadians will not stand for crimes of intolerance and bigotry against anyone.
> 
> “As Minister for Multiculturalism, I call on Canadians to firmly reject this and any other cowardly expressions of hatred against Canadians of any faith.”


Also, the Burnaby mosque we're hearing about these days, while trying to fight extremism, is reportedly getting threats.

As much as I despise the killings, I like to think we're better than this.

The Minister today has issued a statement about the death of Cpl. Cirillo:


> “Last Wednesday, the nation watched in horror as passersby and medical professionals tried desperately, but ultimately unsuccessfully, to save the life of Corporal Nathan Cirillo after he was shot while standing sentry at the National War Memorial. This was an appalling event which affected us all, and we mourn with the families and friends of this fine Canadian.
> 
> “As we mourn this tragic loss, there will be an opportunity for Canadians to show their respect and support for the Fallen. This afternoon, Corporal Cirillo’s remains will be transported from Ottawa to his hometown of Hamilton, Ontario. The route on which his remains will travel incorporates the section of Highway 401 between Trenton and Toronto which came to be known as the ‘Highway of Heroes’ when fallen Canadian soldiers returned home after dying in service to Canada on overseas missions.
> 
> Canadians always showed heart-warming and humbling displays of visual support to fallen soldiers and their families whenever the motorcades travelled that route on their way to Toronto. I would encourage all Canadians who want to show their support to Corporal Cirillo and his family to gather at overpasses along the route this afternoon and offer a show of solidarity. It is my hope that the family of our Fallen may take some comfort in the fact that they do not mourn alone.”


----------



## smale436

http://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/cold-lake-residents-work-together-to-clean-up-vandalized-mosque-rcmp-investigating-1.2069684

Massive amounts of people, includin military in uniform, showed up down there almost immediately either cleaning or dropping off paint, brushes, and coffee for those helping. A local glass company replaced the windows as well.

It was nice to see as you can't really order a pizza, get your hair cut, or return your empties without supporting a muslim-owned business. The chairman of this mosque has lived in CL for 30 years and as chairman of the Lakeland United Way has donated thousands of dollars to the MFRC and other functions here on the wing.

WCom and WCWO showed up as well.
https://twitter.com/KikkiPlanet/status/525749796884475904


----------



## kratz

So no uniforms and now remove any online presence.
This website will get more interesting   :Tin-Foil-Hat:

ref:   CTV.ca



> Military gets new social media policy in wake of attacks
> 
> Karolyn Coorsh, CTVNews.ca
> Published Friday, October 24, 2014 7:26PM EDT
> Last Updated Friday, October 24, 2014 9:25PM EDT
> 
> 
> Members of Canada’s National Defence staff and Canadian Armed Forces are being asked to remove any reference to their employment on social media profiles, “especially photographs of military personnel in uniform.”
> 
> The Canadian Forces Counter Intelligence Unit issued a new directive regarding social media practices to soldiers and staff on Friday, two days after a reservist guarding the National War Memorial in Ottawa was shot dead.
> 
> The staff bulletin was prompted by a recent increase of reports made to the unit’s western branch of military personnel -- or their family members -- receiving “friend requests” on Facebook



more at link...


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

These is sound advice regardless and I believe we were encouraged to do this given our deployments to the sandbox.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Here is a wonderful example of grace in a time of grief. I only hope I could be as generous as is the family of WO Vincent.


----------



## OldSolduer

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> These is sound advice regardless and I believe we were encouraged to do this given our deployments to the sandbox.



IMO it's running and hiding. Be proud of who we are, we're told. Wear your uniform proudly, we're told. 

At the first sign of trouble? Oh run to the bunkers and hide. Don't wear your uniform to and from your work.

It does not sit well with me.


----------



## MilEME09

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> IMO it's running and hiding. Be proud of who we are, we're told. Wear your uniform proudly, we're told.
> 
> At the first sign of trouble? Oh run to the bunkers and hide. Don't wear your uniform to and from your work.
> 
> It does not sit well with me.



feels like we are sticking our heads in the sand


----------



## The Bread Guy

CDNAIRFORCE said:
			
		

> http://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/cold-lake-residents-work-together-to-clean-up-vandalized-mosque-rcmp-investigating-1.2069684
> 
> Massive amounts of people, includin military in uniform, showed up down there almost immediately either cleaning or dropping off paint, brushes, and coffee for those helping. A local glass company replaced the windows as well.
> 
> It was nice to see as you can't really order a pizza, get your hair cut, or return your empties without supporting a muslim-owned business. The chairman of this mosque has lived in CL for 30 years and as chairman of the Lakeland United Way has donated thousands of dollars to the MFRC and other functions here on the wing.
> 
> https://twitter.com/KikkiPlanet/status/525749796884475904


Thanks for sharing that.  A photo from home-town media:







			
				CDNAIRFORCE said:
			
		

> WCom and WCWO showed up as well.


Good on them!


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> Pierre Poilievre is already bragging that he warned us about this a week ago on his FB page. I think we can say this is a government that is trying to make political hay of a tragic incident. Harper has a notoriously tight leash. If he didn't think it was appropriate for Pierre to be saying this stuff, he wouldn't be saying it. And again, directly referencing CSIS and our foreign policy in his response to this attack is at the very least insinuating a connection. There is no evidence of such a connection yet,



Can you please take your subtle anti-Harper crap elsewhere.  What makes you think you know more about goings-on than him?  Are you being briefed at the same level and by the same people he is?  Maybe the media isn't reporting everything that is known because they aren't privy to that info, so you don't see it in the news. 



> so this is irresponsible and manipulative.



Indeed.  And for the record I am referring to your attempts to make political hay from a tragic incident.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Can you please take your _subtle anti-Harper crap_ elsewhere.  What makes you think you know more about goings-on than him?  Are you being briefed at the same level and by the same people he is?  Maybe the media isn't reporting everything that is known because they aren't privy to that info, so you don't see it in the news.
> 
> Indeed.  And for the record I am referring to your attempts to _make political hay from a tragic incident_.




In fairness, EITS, he's not the only one making "political hay from a tragic incident;" I don't see any difference at all between what Kilo_302 and Pierre Poilievre are doing. (And I'm a Conservative Party member, in fact I'm a members of the so-called "Leaders Circle" of major financial donors.)

And Kilo_302's "anti-Harper crap" is not really subtle, is it? Plus, we must recognize that about half of our fellow Canadians, probably more than half, share his views to a greater or lesser extent.

One of the reasons we take the recent events (especially those in Ottawa) so seriously is that we sense that democracy, itself, government with the consent of the governed and the rule of law, is under attack. Even 99.99% of the most virulent _Harper Haters_ don't wish to see him shot down in the House of Commons hallways - but I did see one such comment (from a person with a name and avatar that suggested a First Nations connection) on _Twitter_ on the day of the event. I _guess_ that Kilo_302 wants to see someone other than Prime Minister Harper in 24 Sussexd Drive late next year ~ that's a right for which millions of Canadians fought and 100,000+ died.

One of the great things about Army.ca is that Mike Bobbitt and the Mods encourage free, open, even spirited, but always respectful debate.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

You missed the more important part of my post, the "what makes you think you know more than him" part.


----------



## dogger1936

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/military-gets-new-social-media-policy-in-wake-of-attacks-1.2070490#ixzz3HAA5IXJq

Seen this new directive. The terrorist have already won.


----------



## George Wallace

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/military-gets-new-social-media-policy-in-wake-of-attacks-1.2070490#ixzz3HAA5IXJq
> 
> Seen this new directive. The terrorist have already won.



Actually: NO.  That policy was in effect years ago, and for the most part not enforced or ignored.  It came about due to the fact that members, spouses of members, extended family and friends of members were posting PERSEC and OPSEC info on our troops.  "Johnny is coming home on the 21st, landing in Tuktoyaktuk at 1545 hrs.  See you there."  "Jane is working at the hospital in Kandahar, and her lovely accommodations are near the front gate.  She can have easy access to the bazaar from where she is staying."


----------



## cphansen

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> IMO it's running and hiding. Be proud of who we are, we're told. Wear your uniform proudly, we're told.
> 
> At the first sign of trouble? Oh run to the bunkers and hide. Don't wear your uniform to and from your work.
> 
> It does not sit well with me.



It does not sit well with me either.

We have had two proud examples of the best in our society murdered in an attempt to strike fear into us.

We had one regular force member, a firefighter who had to give up firefighting because of a heart condition. So what happens?

He is run down and killed while escorting another soldier to help him navigate the shoals of government regulations,  murdered while serving others.

Thank you WO Vincent for your example of service.

And then there's Cpl Cirillo, a true citizen soldier, a reservist proud of his service and equally involved in his community.

Murdered, shot in a run by shooting while doing the honour guard at The Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.  We were robbed of the services of not a great man but two good men, examples of the best of us.

No I do not agree with the suggestion we adopt a low profile and avoid our uniforms.

What I would suggest is the CDS and our civilian leaders do, is consider, allowing on Tuesday, members to wear their uniforms and not only wear their uniforms but wear the uniform they are proudest of wearing, it could be for officers their mess kits and for NCM, their dress blues.  This would allow members to show how much they mourn our murdered comrades and how proud they are of the example of service those two individuals, Regular and Primary Reserves, have shown us.

You will notice I have avoided the use of the word terrorist.  The Nazis in WW2 considered my father a terrorist because of his Resistance activities and I refuse to allow the current spate of murders to sully my father's and other resistance fighters memories.

I am no longer a member of the Reserves but am still proud of my unit and the people I grew to know, respect and love


----------



## dogger1936

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Actually: NO.  That policy was in effect years ago, and for the most part not enforced or ignored.  It came about due to the fact that members, spouses of members, extended family and friends of members were posting PERSEC and OPSEC info on our troops.  "Johnny is coming home on the 21st, landing in Tuktoyaktuk at 1545 hrs.  See you there."  "Jane is working at the hospital in Kandahar, and her lovely accommodations are near the front gate.  She can have easy access to the bazaar from where she is staying."



Good. Thanks for thisI am out of the loop as per the CNAFORGENS etc nowadays. Glad to see this is just the media spinning recent events.


----------



## tomahawk6

The Cold Lake mosque is an example of "fake hate" designed to garner sympathy.It worked because alot of citizens came to clean up the graffiti.
Like this case in France where the imam confessed to spray painting his own mosque.







Le Republique – The police opened an investigation after the discovery of offensive tags made ​​of green paint on the end of October mosque Pau Avenue Buros. Written in Arabic, the graffiti appeared to the faithful to be about dealing with “infidels, hypocrites, unjust …”. The ‘crying wolf’ imam of the mosque went to the police station a few times to denounce the hateful messages.

Police indulged the mosque leader’s demand for an investigation, which led them…. nowhere. No lead had been successful until Wednesday, when the imam came to the police station to confess that, in fact, it was he who was the author of that little display of self-hatred and blamed it on the nasty infidels – in retaliation for an ongoing internal feud.


----------



## George Wallace

For the most part I agree with you SherH2A, but you lost me here:



			
				SherH2A said:
			
		

> What I would suggest is the CDS and our civilian leaders do, is consider, allowing on Tuesday, members to wear their uniforms and not only wear their uniforms but wear the uniform they are proudest of wearing, it could be for officers their mess kits and for NCM, their dress blues.  This would allow members to show how much they mourn our murdered comrades and how proud they are of the example of service those two individuals, Regular and Primary Reserves, have shown us.



That does not make any sense to me.

As for this:


			
				SherH2A said:
			
		

> You will notice I have avoided the use of the word terrorist.  The Nazis in WW2 considered my father a terrorist because of his Resistance activities and I refuse to allow the current spate of murders to sully my father's and other resistance fighters memories.



I would in no way consider the "Resistance" terrorists in the way that we call Terrorists today.  The Resistance were organized organizations cooperating fully with the Allies in their endeavors to defeat the Nazi threat.  They were not terrorizing the public.  They may have been terrorizing the German army, but so were other Allied units; all part of the efforts to stop the threat.

Terrorists today target one and all, to throw fear into the minds of whole populations.  The Resistance can not be compared in anyway to Terrorists.


----------



## George Wallace

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> The Cold Lake mosque is an example of "fake hate" designed to garner sympathy.It worked because alot of citizens came to clean up the graffiti.
> Like this case in France where the imam confessed to spray painting his own mosque.



True.  It could be.   It may not be.  It was in English, not Arabic, so it could have been anyone.  I would say that the case in France would have eliminated a vast majority of Frenchmen due to it being spray painted in Arabic, something I am sure the majority of Frenchmen would not have knowledge of.  

The fact that the community came together to clean up the graffiti says more.


----------



## bald guy

I find it more than ironic that military personnel have received directives to remove their military employment and pictures of military personnel from their personal facebook pages.  Meanwhile DND facebook pages have numerous pictures of military personnel with their names attached.  Am I missing something?


----------



## George Wallace

bald guy said:
			
		

> I find it more than ironic that military personnel have received directives to remove their military employment and pictures of military personnel from their personal facebook pages.  Meanwhile DND facebook pages have numerous pictures of military personnel with their names attached.  Am I missing something?



I think they are seriously worried about the PERSEC and OPSEC of CAF members who, along with family and friends, may be posting such things on social media as:

"Here is a view of Kabul from my position on TV Hill."  
"Jill will be arriving home on Flight XYJ, in Ottawa at 1450 hrs on Thursday."

Usually the photos and info on the DND pages are vetted.  Not to mention our faith in the PAO's to get things wrong, like all the rest of the Press.   ;D


----------



## The Bread Guy

George Wallace said:
			
		

> The fact that the community came together to clean up the graffiti says more.


 :nod:


----------



## cameron

RIP Cpl. Cirillo :cdnsalute:


----------



## Haggis

It appears that Cpl Cirillo is getting a full military send-off and a whole lot of media coverage.  However, we have heard little of the arrangements for WO Vincent.  Does anyone know about his funeral?


----------



## The Bread Guy

Haggis said:
			
		

> It appears that Cpl Cirillo is getting a full military send-off and a whole lot of media coverage.  However, we have heard little of the arrangements for WO Vincent.  Does anyone know about his funeral?


Here's the Google English version of this in French:


> The funeral of Warrant Officer Patrice Vincent, the military killed when Martin Rouleau Couture launched its drive against him Monday in Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu, will take place on Saturday, November 1 at the Cathedral of Longueuil.
> 
> (....)
> 
> Not surprisingly, the family requests that the media and the community respect their privacy and states that it did not intend to speak to the media, preferring instead to focus on the possible creation of a Facebook page in memory Patrice Vincent will post information, personal photographs as well as his career in the Armed Forces.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> The Cold Lake mosque is an example of "fake hate" designed to garner sympathy.It worked because alot of citizens came to clean up the graffiti.
> Like this case in France where the imam confessed to spray painting his own mosque.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Le Republique – The police opened an investigation after the discovery of offensive tags made ​​of green paint on the end of October mosque Pau Avenue Buros. Written in Arabic, the graffiti appeared to the faithful to be about dealing with “infidels, hypocrites, unjust …”. The ‘crying wolf’ imam of the mosque
> went to the police station a few times to denounce the hateful messages.
> 
> Police indulged the mosque leader’s demand for an investigation, which led them…. nowhere. No lead had been successful until Wednesday, when the imam came to the police station to confess that, in fact, it was he who was the author of that little display of self-hatred and blamed it on the nasty infidels – in retaliation for an ongoing internal feud.



What's your source that they desecrated their own business?


----------



## JS2218

bald guy said:
			
		

> I find it more than ironic that military personnel have received directives to remove their military employment and pictures of military personnel from their personal facebook pages.  Meanwhile DND facebook pages have numerous pictures of military personnel with their names attached.  Am I missing something?



I would question the legality of giving *legal* orders to do so. It might be highly recommended but I have not seen anything that specifically states "you *will * remove x photos."


----------



## DAA

bald guy said:
			
		

> I find it more than ironic that military personnel have received directives to remove their military employment and pictures of military personnel from their personal facebook pages.  Meanwhile DND facebook pages have numerous pictures of military personnel with their names attached.  Am I missing something?



The pictures are used with the "consent" of those who appear in them.  It would be a monumental task to try and sanitize those websites and at the end of the day, what's the point?  You can always pull that data through Google and retrieve a "cached" version of the same page.  Not to mention what do you post next on those sites, pictures which have no personal appeal or connection to the average Canadian?

Best case scenario, would be that if an individual wants their photo removed, they need merely ask for it to be taken down.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

JS2218 said:
			
		

> I would question the legality of giving *legal* orders to do so. It might be highly recommended but I have not seen anything that specifically states "you *will * remove x photos."



The term is 'lawful command'.  Are you even in the military?

Whether this is a lawful command or not I'll leave to a Legal SME.  Common Sense SME in me says it's stupid to ignore this advice, and it could be your family, kids and friends who pay the price.


----------



## DAA

Also, for those who follow various other sites, you'll be happy to know that FB has either pulled down "that guys" FB page or through his own better judgement he deleted his account.  And on a more important note, the Company that he listed as his "Employer" on his personal Facebook page, has indicated that he was NOT one of their employees and had no affiliation with that company.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Devon-Lumber-Company-Inc/113434102181376

PS - see the post below from Chief Stoker.  Seems to be two unrelated companies, one in the US and one in Canada by relatively the same name.

http://www.devonlumber.ca/


----------



## George Wallace

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> The term is 'lawful command'.  Are you even in the military?
> 
> Whether this is a lawful command or not I'll leave to a Legal SME.  Common Sense SME in me says it's stupid to ignore this advice, and it could be your family, kids and friends who pay the price.



And that, once again, brings us back to Killing With Keyboards.

or here:  http://army.ca/forums/threads/71137.0  where our discussion and updates add a bit to more.


----------



## Stoker

DAA said:
			
		

> Also, for those who follow various other sites, you'll be happy to know that FB has either pulled down "that guys" FB page or through his own better judgement he deleted his account.  And on a more important note, the Company that he listed as his "Employer" on his personal Facebook page, has indicated that he was NOT one of their employees and had no affiliation with the company.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/pages/Devon-Lumber-Company-Inc/113434102181376



Yes he did, with their Canadian store it appears.


----------



## cphansen

Well frankly what I am suggesting is we allow the members to wear their best to honour the memory of two very good men.  I think if a good portion of the CAF wear their dress uniforms going back and forth to work, it would send a very different message and if the CDS amended his suggestion to allow the members to decide for themselves, it would show the esteem they were held in by the rest of us.

I think it would send a very powerful statement.

And as for the use of the term terrorists,  they do not deserve the honour of that term as the Nazis applied it to the resistance fighters.  The term had a very different meaning 60 years ago and should not be debased by being applied to haters and murders


----------



## DAA

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Yes he did, with their Canadian store it appears.



I'm thinking it is two totally different operations (ie; Ltd and Inc), the one shown on his FB page implicated the company in the US but they could have been a bit more specific in there response and "distanced" themselves a bit more from all of this.

http://www.devonlumber.ca/


----------



## a_majoor

When we think of Cpl Nathan Cirrillo, Warrant Officer Patrice Vincent, Cpl Brandon Stevenson (who was also on guard at the monument), Sergeant at Arms Kevin Vickers (and all the other men and women who serve), I'd like everyone to remember how they epitomize the words of the "Funeral Oration" by Pericles:



> "What I would prefer is you should fix your eyes every day on the greatness of Athens as she really is, and fall in love with her. When you realize her greatness, *then reflect what made her great were men with a spirit of adventure, men who knew their duty, men who were ashamed to fall below a certain standard.* If they ever failed in an enterprise, they made up their minds that at any rate the city would not find their courage lacking to her, and they gave to her the best contribution that they could. They gave her their lives, to her and to all of us, and for their own selves they won praises that never grow old, the most splendid of sepulchers- not the sepulcher where their body is laid but where their glory remains eternal in men’s minds, always there on the right occasion to stir others to speech or to action."


----------



## Edward Campbell

Things that make you go "Hmmm ..." include this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from _The Independent_:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/ottawa-shooting-harpers-prous-agenda-has-turned-canada-into-a-target-and-divided-society-9811918.html


> Ottawa shooting: Harper’s pro-US agenda has turned Canada into a target – and divided society
> *The impact of the country’s participation in the US-led war against Isis has already been felt*
> 
> NELOFER PAZIRA
> 
> Wednesday 22 October 2014
> 
> The safest country in the world is no longer a safe place and many Canadians will be asking today whether this is because the Conservative Prime Minister Stephen Harper pushed Canada into joining the US-led war in the Middle East.
> A multicultural society which prided itself on tolerance became divided when the Conservative government put a number of Muslims on a “watch list” in addition to announcing three weeks ago that it would send 600 special forces members along with fighter jets to support the US effort in their fight against Isis in Iraq. Two Canadian soldiers were hit by a car on Monday near Montreal – one of them died later. The attacker was shot dead and identified as a Muslim convert influenced by “radical Islamists”.
> 
> Canada has a large Muslim population – more than 2 per cent are Canadian citizens – but the word “radicalised” only came into use recently when the Harper government revealed it believed that about 30 young Canadians had gone to support Isis.
> 
> Then at 10am Canadian time yesterday a gunman fired shots at the War Memorial near the Parliament Hill in Ottawa and first reports suggested a Canadian soldier on honour guard was killed. The gunman entered the parliament building with a rifle where some 30 shots were heard. Harper was evacuated to safety and the parliament building was under police guard for hours afterwards. On Wednesdays, parliament is a busy place with all parties holding their caucus meetings; the building is often packed with tourists.
> 
> One parliamentary worker described the armed man as having an Arab appearance with long hair and a beard. Canadian Muslims will be among the first to express their concern if this proves true.
> 
> The Montreal attacker was identified as Martin Couture-Rouleau, aged 25, of Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu outside the city.
> 
> Canada refused to join the UK-US war in Iraq in 2003. As a bargain, then Canadian Liberal Prime Minister Jean Chrétien offered to send troops to Afghanistan. Initially, Canadians were not told their soldiers were on a combat mission. Only when their bodies began to return home did it become clear that Canada was at war in a Muslim country. Canadians eventually forced Harper to withdraw their soldiers from Afghanistan.
> 
> But now he is sending them back to the Middle East. Canadians have been against joining wars on the basis that, historically, their country only sent peacekeepers abroad. However, Harper’s pro-American policies appear to have turned Canada – and indeed the seat of political power in the capital Ottawa – into a target. Now Canadians will not only be worried about travelling to Europe, America or the Middle East – but wondering if they’re even safe inside their own homes.
> 
> So what happens next? Will Canada’s Muslim community – which has existed for more than 100 years – now have to “re-prove” it is loyal to a country which is fighting in the Muslim world? There have been plenty of “plots” uncovered in the past – in one of which Muslim extremists were apparently threatening to kill MPs. Since 9/11, many Muslims in the country have offered to work in government security in order to prevent incidents like those this week. How long this co-operation will continue now that Canada is in action in Iraq is another question.
> 
> _Nelofer Pazira is a Canadian journalist_




Now, I have no doubt that some people, some of them Muslims, oppose Canada's intervention in the Middle East. I have no doubt that some Canadians support IS** for any number of reasons, none of them good.

But consider this: "Canadians eventually forced Harper to withdraw their soldiers from Afghanistan." I have no doubt that one of the factors that led Prime Minister Harper to withdraw from Afghanistan was that Canadians' support for the mission declined over time. But I am fairly certain that several other factors weighed at least as heavily.

There's a _Wikipedia_ page about Ms Pazira.


----------



## tomahawk6

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> What's your source that they desecrated their own business?



Here is your source.How's yout French ? ;D

http://www.larepubliquedespyrenees.fr/2013/11/14/tags-a-la-mosquee-de-pau-l-imam-avoue-en-etre-l-auteur,1164851.php


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Je suis sexy.... Is all I've got


----------



## Cloud Cover

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> Je suis sexy.... Is all I've got



Oh my Allah, that's it, I'm filing for expedited divorce on Monday. 8 months of match.com and "the one" shows up on army.ca. Go figure.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

;D


----------



## Cloud Cover

JS2218 said:
			
		

> I would question the legality of giving *legal* orders to do so. It might be highly recommended but I have not seen anything that specifically states "you *will * remove x photos."



I can think of better things to question the legality of, than that. There is nothing but the best interests in terms of persec behind that order. And, unless you are the CDS, or one of his direct 2 star minions, nobody stands around questioning the legality of things that are merely annoying.


----------



## cryco

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Things that make you go "Hmmm ..." include this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from _The Independent_:
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/ottawa-shooting-harpers-prous-agenda-has-turned-canada-into-a-target-and-divided-society-9811918.html
> 
> Now, I have no doubt that some people, some of them Muslims, oppose Canada's intervention in the Middle East. I have no doubt that some Canadians support IS** for any number of reasons, none of them good.
> 
> But consider this: "Canadians eventually forced Harper to withdraw their soldiers from Afghanistan." I have no doubt that one of the factors that led Prime Minister Harper to withdraw from Afghanistan was that Canadians' support for the mission declined over time. But I am fairly certain that several other factors weighed at least as heavily.
> 
> There's a _Wikipedia_ page about Ms Pazira.



I get the impression that Ms Pazira doesn't get that a country can evolve or change their beliefs as a whole. 
We may have had peacekeeping roles in the past, but as time goes by and remote conflicts become more, um, widespread I guess, and some pretty sick things and atrocities are committed, we cannot idly stand by or go and maintain peace. The aggressors do not want peace, they want death and destruction of anything not like them; and they place the west in their crosshairs. But that's just how I feel. 
I sometimes feel guilty for thinking that way because I'm all for sending our military is some pretty hot zones, but that's you guys. I am part of the voices that want to send you guys into grave danger and it's kinda weird now that I've read alot of the comments you write; I see you're people too, not pawns on a chess board. So thanks. Like, a lot.


----------



## a_majoor

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Things that make you go "Hmmm ..." include this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from _The Independent_:
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/ottawa-shooting-harpers-prous-agenda-has-turned-canada-into-a-target-and-divided-society-9811918.html
> 
> Now, I have no doubt that some people, some of them Muslims, oppose Canada's intervention in the Middle East. I have no doubt that some Canadians support IS** for any number of reasons, none of them good.
> 
> But consider this: "Canadians eventually forced Harper to withdraw their soldiers from Afghanistan." I have no doubt that one of the factors that led Prime Minister Harper to withdraw from Afghanistan was that Canadians' support for the mission declined over time. But I am fairly certain that several other factors weighed at least as heavily.
> 
> There's a _Wikipedia_ page about Ms Pazira.



The writer is an idiot, and one who fails to do even the most elementary research to boot. There were several rounds of public debate, which pushed the mission from the Sha-i-kot valley to Kabul, then back to Kandahar, then extended the mission to 2009, then 2011. While it is true public support of the mission declined over the years, the Government for what it said it would do and followed the timetables laid out and agreed to by Parliament. Hardly sounds like "forced".

Just for the record, I personally do not support the Canadian Mission against ISIS, because:
a. There are more pressing issues threatening the National Interest in Ukraine, the South China Sea, etc., and;
b. We are enabling our _other_ enemies in the ME by taking up arms against their enemies (i.e. we are helping Iran, the Syrian puppet regime and Hesbollah). Far better to let them fight it out amongst themselves.

However, since the government evidently has weighed the options and come to a different conclusion, I will continue to carry out my orders and do the job. And now that we are "all in", *we* need to deploy _all_ the resources of the modern state, including police, intelligence, military and using the PCO and other resources to craft messages that disarm or otherwise neutralize the message(s) of radicalism. Even thinking about one of the articles posted "upthread", *we* need to show people that radical Islam is *not* empowering for people who feel disenfranchised, and offer a better alternative based in Liberal Western culture and values.


----------



## tomahawk6

The fight against IS is important.Like other terrorist organizations they have their tentacles everywhere.The main focus for IS is in Syria-Iraq.After they secure a base of operations just like cancer they will spread.I prefer to fight them far from our own shores as long as possible.The jihadists so far have inspired attacks in Canada and NYC.They got some headlines and some martyr's.Canada has paid a price this week for standing up to the jihadists and for that I am proud to call Canada friend and I mourn for your fallen sons.Please continue to fight for freedom.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Recessional

God of our fathers, known of old—
Lord of our far-flung battle line—
Beneath whose awful hand we hold
 Dominion over palm and pine—
Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
 Lest we forget—lest we forget!

 The tumult and the shouting dies—
The Captains and the Kings depart—
Still stands Thine ancient sacrifice,
 An humble and a contrite heart.
 Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
 Lest we forget—lest we forget!

 Far-called our navies melt away—
On dune and headland sinks the fire—
Lo, all our pomp of yesterday
 Is one with Nineveh and Tyre!
 Judge of the Nations, spare us yet,
 Lest we forget—lest we forget!

 If, drunk with sight of power, we loose
 Wild tongues that have not Thee in awe—
Such boastings as the Gentiles use,
 Or lesser breeds without the Law—
Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
 Lest we forget—lest we forget!

 For heathen heart that puts her trust
 In reeking tube and iron shard—
All valiant dust that builds on dust,
 And guarding calls not Thee to guard.
 For frantic boast and foolish word,
 Thy Mercy on Thy People, Lord!

 Amen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recessional_(poem)


----------



## Kilo_302

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Can you please take your subtle anti-Harper crap elsewhere.  What makes you think you know more about goings-on than him?  Are you being briefed at the same level and by the same people he is?  Maybe the media isn't reporting everything that is known because they aren't privy to that info, so you don't see it in the news.
> 
> Indeed.  And for the record I am referring to your attempts to make political hay from a tragic incident.



How is pointing out Harper making political hay out of this akin to me doing the same thing? Would you prefer we stick our collective heads in the sand and allow the government to make false connections and distort reality to further their own ends? This is what politicians do, but it seems especially cynical in the wake of Wednesday's events. 

 IF Harper had seen some sort of report linking ISIS with Wednesday's events, it would probably be public knowledge by now, as it would further support government policy. OR, if for whatever reason, this report was sensitive, Harper probably would not have connected the two in a national address. John Baird has come out and said there was absoluteoly no connection between ISIS and Bibeau, so either the government has conflicting information or Harper was politicking in his speech. The latter is far more likely, and frankly I'm surprised that Canadians (or our media) aren't more concerned that Harper clearly tried to make a connection where there was none, only to have his own minister clarify there is zero connection a day later.

Your powers of observation are impressive, I do not support Harper. But that is not the central reason why I am concerned with his address, or our government's response. It's not rocket science. Governments often overreact in the wake of "terror" attacks, and enact laws which could potentially impact democratic institutions. Our current government has demonstrated they have little respect for democratic institutions or processes in Canada, so it might serve us all well to watch them like hawks in times like these.


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the _Toronto Star_:


> The RCMP has asked the Ontario Provincial Police to lead an independent probe into Wednesday’s attack on Parliament, during which police and parliamentary security staff shot and killed a gunman who stormed the government buildings, The Star has learned.
> 
> According to sources with knowledge of the request, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, which gathered evidence immediately after the attack, is seeking an independent third-party investigation of events inside and outside Parliament in which several of its officers were involved in the massive show of force that killed the gunman.
> 
> Mounties joined parliamentary security staff in the dramatic chase through Centre Block before Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, who minutes earlier fatally shot Cpl. Nathan Cirillo at the nearby National War Memorial, was himself brought down in a hail of bullets.
> 
> The independent probe comes on top of a sweeping security review already ordered by Commons Speaker Andrew Scheer. Sources say it will be led by a credible, respected individual independent of the agencies and institutions involved ....


----------



## JS2218

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> The term is 'lawful command'.  Are you even in the military?
> 
> Whether this is a lawful command or not I'll leave to a Legal SME.  Common Sense SME in me says it's stupid to ignore this advice, and it could be your family, kids and friends who pay the price.



Yes, I am.

I understand and agree that it would be a lawful command to order someone to remove photos that specifically compromise OPSEC/PERSEC, give away critical mission details, etc.

But not long ago the military attempted to get everyone to sign an "appropriate comments on social media" policy and it failed miserably.  It failed because the military has no jurisdiction over an individual's personal social media accounts unless they're taking/circulating the type of photos mentioned above.

My point is not to argue whether it would be smart and prudent for every military member to keep an eye on what they post; rather it was pointing out that the military does not have legal jurisdiction to *order* someone to remove photos. I too would be interested in a lawyer's perspective.


----------



## George Wallace

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> IF Harper had seen some sort of report linking ISIS with Wednesday's events, it would probably be public knowledge by now, as it would further support government policy. OR, if for whatever reason, this report was sensitive, Harper probably would not have connected the two in a national address. John Baird has come out and said there was absoluteoly no connection between ISIS and Bibeau, so either the government has conflicting information or Harper was politicking in his speech. The latter is far more likely, and frankly I'm surprised that Canadians (or our media) aren't more concerned that Harper clearly tried to make a connection where there was none, only to have his own minister clarify there is zero connection a day later.



Officially and technically you are correct, there is no official connection between ISIS and Bibeau.  However, if you look at the ISIS directives to Muslims who are also following their beliefs, Bibeau's visits to their sites, etc.; then there is a convoluted connection that had warped Bibeau's judgement.  It could well be the fact that the ISIS directives on the internet, did indeed drive Bibeau to conduct his acts of murder and violence. 




			
				Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> Your powers of observation are impressive, I do not support Harper. But that is not the central reason why I am concerned with his address, or our government's response. It's not rocket science. Governments often overreact in the wake of "terror" attacks, and enact laws which could potentially impact democratic institutions. Our current government has demonstrated they have little respect for democratic institutions or processes in Canada, so it might serve us all well to watch them like hawks in times like these.



I would say you are being overly dramatic and paranoid in what our Government is doing.  So far, I have witnessed a lot of restraint on the part of the Government and an intent to maintain the 'openness' of Parliament, Parliament Hill, and the Nations' Capital.   I have seen concerns about physical security raised in the media and by officials, but no overbearing move to restrict personal freedoms, nor enact more restrictive laws.   I wonder what your opinions of the previous Liberal Governments over the past two or three decades have been under similar circumstances:  Enacting the War Measures Act; the OKA Crisis; sending our troops to Iraq; and later sending troops to Afghanistan.  What freedoms have Liberal Governments removed from the democratic society and institutions that you speak of?

It is the job of our parliamentarians, no matter what Party they belong to, to protect our freedoms.  In some cases, a minority of people will feel done in by.  Obviously you are one.  Does this mean we are a Totalitarian State?  I don't think we are.  The cost of freedom does come with some price.  We are still free, and I think at the moment that you are looking at something that is NOT there.  The sky is not falling.


----------



## George Wallace

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> This from the _Toronto Star_:



This is just like any shooting that involves Police forces.  The [Edited to add:]an outside Police force/outside agency like the SIU will investigate .  Is that unusual?

JS2218

Again, we are pointing out that Common Sense is not that common.  Too many CAF members are too casual with their own PERSEC that they are their own worse enemy at times.  The population of Canada is very naive when it comes to PERSEC, so it should come as no surprise that most CAF members follow suit.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

The uniqueness may be that the RCMP is asking another police agency, to conduct an investigation. Just a guess


----------



## ModlrMike

JS2218 said:
			
		

> But not long ago the military attempted to get everyone to sign an "appropriate comments on social media" policy and it failed miserably.  It failed because the military has no jurisdiction over an individual's personal social media accounts unless they're taking/circulating the type of photos mentioned above.



No, they asked us to sign an agreement not to post information relating to our TTPs on line, and to recognize that social media is not secure. There's a difference. The military does have jurisdiction - it's called the Official Secrets Act. There's also sections of the NDA that cover bringing the organization into disrepute, using threatening or insulting language towards or about a superior etc.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> The uniqueness may be that the RCMP is asking another police agency, to conduct an investigation. Just a guess


I've seen OPP called in to check out municipal situations where the muni force itself was involved, so it makes at least that level of sense.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

I agree it sounds like a prudent COA


----------



## daftandbarmy

Ccunter-terrorism is not just an RCMP thing. There's a whole network involved, as we all well know. I wonder to what extent they'll just focus on the RCMP?


----------



## Kilo_302

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Officially and technically you are correct, there is no official connection between ISIS and Bibeau.  However, if you look at the ISIS directives to Muslims who are also following their beliefs, Bibeau's visits to their sites, etc.; then there is a convoluted connection that had warped Bibeau's judgement.  It could well be the fact that the ISIS directives on the internet, did indeed drive Bibeau to conduct his acts of murder and violence.
> 
> 
> I would say you are being overly dramatic and paranoid in what our Government is doing.  So far, I have witnessed a lot of restraint on the part of the Government and an intent to maintain the 'openness' of Parliament, Parliament Hill, and the Nations' Capital.   I have seen concerns about physical security raised in the media and by officials, but no overbearing move to restrict personal freedoms, nor enact more restrictive laws.   I wonder what your opinions of the previous Liberal Governments over the past two or three decades have been under similar circumstances:  Enacting the War Measures Act; the OKA Crisis; sending our troops to Iraq; and later sending troops to Afghanistan.  What freedoms have Liberal Governments removed from the democratic society and institutions that you speak of?
> 
> It is the job of our parliamentarians, no matter what Party they belong to, to protect our freedoms.  In some cases, a minority of people will feel done in by.  Obviously you are one.  Does this mean we are a Totalitarian State?  I don't think we are.  The cost of freedom does come with some price.  We are still free, and I think at the moment that you are looking at something that is NOT there.  The sky is not falling.



We likely read different papers:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/harper-vows-to-fast-track-boost-to-spy-policing-powers-after-shooting/article21282699/

From the article" 





> “Our laws and police powers need to be strengthened in the area of surveillance, detention and arrest,” the Prime Minister told the House of Commons. “They need to be much strengthened. I assure members that work which is already under way will be expedited.”



This is 24 hours after the attack. I don't think I'm being too dramatic or paranoid at all. History is replete with examples of governments doing this, just not usually at this speed.

I have no love for the Liberal Party, or the governments they have formed either. The War Measures Act is perhaps the worst overt violation of our rights in a democracy in modern Canadian history. I'm not aware of a Liberal government sending Canadian soldiers to Iraq on anything outside of the regular exchange programs between Canada and the US.  Similarly, Oka occurred while Mulroney was in office. As for sending forces to Afghanistan, I was initially in favour of the mission as well as the later role in Kandahar but became opposed to it as it became clear there was no clear definition of success. Nowadays, I would not support the deployment of Canadian Forces to fight "terror" outside of very specific direct actions designed to counter very specific and imminent threats to Canada. Otherwise it's counterproductive, as the Pentagon report detailed in this article explains:

http://www.salon.com/2009/10/20/terrorism_6/

"


----------



## a_majoor

VDH suggested the dawn of Democracy was the outcome of ranks of equals standing in the field to defend their crops and farmland. We have now come full circle, with MPs taking up makeshift arms and preparing to sell themselves dearly in response to the attack on Parliament:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/mps-fashioned-spears-out-of-flag-poles-after-hearing-shots/article21278580/



> *Ottawa attack: MPs fashioned spears while Harper whisked into closet*
> STEVEN CHASE
> OTTAWA — The Globe and Mail
> Published Thursday, Oct. 23 2014, 8:07 PM EDT
> Last updated Friday, Oct. 24 2014, 8:47 AM EDT
> 
> Stephen Harper spent about 15 minutes hidden in a Parliament Hill closet after a gunman stormed Centre Block where he and the rest of the Conservative caucus were guarded by MPs who’d fashioned sharp spears from flagpoles, sources say.
> 
> After they heard gunfire outside their meeting room door Wednesday, members of Parliament snapped close to 15 flagpoles to make weapons.
> 
> MORE RELATED TO THIS STORY
> 
> ‘You are so loved’: Lawyer describes efforts to save Nathan Cirillo
> In wake of shooting, Ottawans talk politics: ‘Things will change on the Hill’
> Harper vows to strengthen national security laws after Ottawa shooting
> 
> VIDEO
> Video: Walking through the Hall of Honour the day after the Ottawa shooting
> 
> VIDEO
> Video: Nurse who gave Cpl. Cirillo CPR shares her story
> 
> VIDEO
> Video: No link between two soldier attacks: RCMP
> Some positioned themselves on risers that flanked doors, ready to attack an assailant.
> 
> Further reading: What we know so far on the attack on Ottawa
> 
> “There were 15 flags up at caucus and all but two were taken down,” one MP recalled.
> 
> “These guys were up there holding these spears ready to impale anyone who came in,” the source said.
> 
> “It was that or get mowed down,” the member of Parliament said of the threat posed by a gunman who was ultimately shot dead by Parliament Hill security.
> 
> Mr. Harper, meanwhile, had been whisked into a closet in the Centre Block room shortly after the gunfights outside began.
> 
> There were more than 150 Tory MPs stuck in this caucus room during the ordeal.
> 
> Many MPs thought the Prime Minister had managed to get out of the room and didn’t know he was sequestered in what amounted to a cubbyhole.
> 
> “Someone knew there was a closet there so they stuck him in there,” the source said.
> 
> “So for a lot of people it was as though he was gone.”
> 
> The Prime Minister’s RCMP security detail ultimately rescued him and whisked him out of the building.
> 
> It was a surprise to many Conservatives when Mr. Harper emerged from his hiding place to exit Parliament Hill.
> 
> Some MPs kept their flagpole weapons as souvenirs.
> 
> “Everyone was taking their spears home,” the MP said. “I’m going to frame mine.”
> 
> One soldier was killed by the gunman Wednesday and a Hill security guard was shot fighting the assailant but is expected to make a full recovery.
> 
> Tory MPs reunited with Mr. Harper Wednesday evening at the Foreign Affairs building and Democratic Reform Minister Pierre Poilievre brought his spear as a memento, another source said.


----------



## cupper

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> “Our laws and police powers need to be strengthened in the area of surveillance, detention and arrest,” the Prime Minister told the House of Commons. “They need to be much strengthened. I assure members that work which is already under way will be expedited.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is 24 hours after the attack. I don't think I'm being too dramatic or paranoid at all. History is replete with examples of governments doing this, just not usually at this speed.
> 
> I have no love for the Liberal Party, or the governments they have formed either. The War Measures Act is perhaps the worst overt violation of our rights in a democracy in modern Canadian history. I'm not aware of a Liberal government sending Canadian soldiers to Iraq on anything outside of the regular exchange programs between Canada and the US.  Similarly, Oka occurred while Mulroney was in office.
Click to expand...


First, I would call this a knee jerk reaction in the aftermath of a traumatic incident, if it weren't for the fact that the government was already doing a review of policy with respect to terrorism.

Second, any measure that the Government comes up with needs to be able to withstand a Charter challenge, even when accounting for the Reasonable Limits clause.



> Guarantee of Rights and Freedoms
> 
> Rights and freedoms in Canada
> 
> 1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.



That's the one thing that people seem to overlook or forget. In Canada your rights under the Charter are not absolute. Which is why we can have a more robust set of laws regarding hate speech, why the government can seize a person's passport to keep them from leaving the country even though you are guaranteed the right to enter, remain and leave the country as a Canadian Citizen.



> Mobility Rights
> 
> Mobility of citizens
> 
> 6. (1) Every citizen of Canada has the right to enter, remain in and leave Canada.
> Marginal note:



I like to compare the reasonable limits clause to the  concept that with rights comes responsibilities and the reasonable limits which may be imposed reflect those responsibilities.


----------



## Robert0288

cupper said:
			
		

> why the government can seize a person's passport to keep them from leaving the country even though you are guaranteed the right to enter, remain and leave the country as a Canadian Citizen.



Passport Canada can revoke a passport or travel document of a Canadian citizen for a bunch of reasons*, but the rights you mention are absolute**.  It's just exceptionally hard to find another country to go to that will authorize entry to a foreign national if you do not have a passport.

* http://www.ppt.gc.ca/protection/revocation.aspx?lang=eng
** except when bound by ongoing legal obligations, IE court order


----------



## Eye In The Sky

JS2218 said:
			
		

> Yes, I am.
> 
> I understand and agree that it would be a lawful command to order someone to remove photos that specifically compromise OPSEC/PERSEC, give away critical mission details, etc.
> 
> But not long ago the military attempted to get everyone to sign an "appropriate comments on social media" policy and it failed miserably.  It failed because the military has no jurisdiction over an individual's personal social media accounts unless they're taking/circulating the type of photos mentioned above.
> 
> My point is not to argue whether it would be smart and prudent for every military member to keep an eye on what they post; rather it was pointing out that the military does not have legal jurisdiction to *order* someone to remove photos. I too would be interested in a lawyer's perspective.



I think you, and anyone who agrees your post above, should read a few things for education and awareness and ensure your subordinates, etc know this as well.  Keep in mind, the case below was a Class A Reservist and challenged based on that she was not subj to the CSD.  CDS decision pending but I suspect a Deny by the FA.

MGERC - Policies on the use of social networks  Don't forget to read the Case Summary, Case # 2013-55.

Issue

It is a reality of modern society that increasing numbers of Canadians, military personnel included, are using social networks and have access to them via a variety of electronic platforms, including wireless networks, both in the workplace and elsewhere. Current policies and directives of the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) governing access to social networks are limited to the use of the Department of National Defence/CAF infrastructure. Case law indicates, however, that inappropriate comments posted by employees on social networks can lead to administrative and/or disciplinary measures, irrespective of the location, time or electronic platform used. The CAF should alert military personnel to the potential consequences they may suffer when posting comments on the social networks.  

** the MGERC review process includes Legal/JAG review steps.


----------



## George Wallace

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I think, and anyone who agrees your post above, should read a few things for education and awareness and ensure your subordinates, etc know this as well.  Keep in mind, the case below was a Class A Reservist and challenged based on that she was not subj to the CSD.  CDS decision pending but I suspect a Deny by the FA.
> 
> MGERC - Policies on the use of social networks  Don't forget to read the Case Summary, Case # 2013-55.
> 
> Issue
> 
> It is a reality of modern society that increasing numbers of Canadians, military personnel included, are using social networks and have access to them via a variety of electronic platforms, including wireless networks, both in the workplace and elsewhere. Current policies and directives of the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) governing access to social networks are limited to the use of the Department of National Defence/CAF infrastructure. Case law indicates, however, that inappropriate comments posted by employees on social networks can lead to administrative and/or disciplinary measures, irrespective of the location, time or electronic platform used. The CAF should alert military personnel to the potential consequences they may suffer when posting comments on the social networks.
> 
> ** the MGERC review process includes Legal/JAG review steps.



If anyone has had the Harassment Crse, they will recognize the definition of "workplace".  If you are anywhere, with coworkers discussing anything related to your work, you are considered to be in the workplace.  So, sitting at home, chatting on a media with coworkers, in this case fellow Service members, you could likely find that being a workplace environment by that definition.   Just a point of thought.


----------



## cupper

Robert0288 said:
			
		

> Passport Canada can revoke a passport or travel document of a Canadian citizen for a bunch of reasons*, but the rights you mention are absolute**.  It's just exceptionally hard to find another country to go to that will authorize entry to a foreign national if you do not have a passport.
> 
> * http://www.ppt.gc.ca/protection/revocation.aspx?lang=eng
> ** except when bound by ongoing legal obligations, IE court order



Your point about Passport Canada is well taken, but still falls within the the reasonable limits clause. Refusal and / or Revocation cannot be arbitrary, so it must be justified. The reasons listed are reasonable. The same with surrender of a passport while under court order.

If the right were absolute, no measure whatsoever could be taken to restrict that right, be it speech, mobility, practice of religion and so forth. Lawmakers and Courts could not make laws and uphold them that would in anyway restrict those rights.

There will always be situations where one's rights can be restricted or suspended. But those situations need to be justified, and hold up to review by the courts.


----------



## Sf2

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Ccunter-terrorism is not just an RCMP thing. There's a whole network involved, as we all well know. I wonder to what extent they'll just focus on the RCMP?



Curious to hear what you are inferring?


----------



## The Bread Guy

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Ccunter-terrorism is not just an RCMP thing. There's a whole network involved, as we all well know. I wonder to what extent they'll just focus on the RCMP?


Good question - since we don't have the Terms of Reference, all we have is what the reporter wrote from what she heard from what her "source" said ....


> .... the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, which gathered evidence immediately after the attack, is seeking an independent third-party investigation of events inside and outside Parliament in which several of its officers were involved in the massive show of force that killed the gunman ....


This reads like the RCMP is the requestor, but for _just_ the RCMP or for the whole of government?  I'm guessing the government would ask for an all-forces review of what happened.  

It _will_ be interesting to see, if the story pans out, how wide a net the OPP will be allowed to cast, given that it's not just RCMP that was involved.

Meanwhile, a new graphic's making the rounds of the interwebs ....


----------



## The_Falcon

SF2 said:
			
		

> Curious to hear what you are inferring?



That there are other organizations involved in Canada's counter-terrorism efforts such as CSIS and CSE, and whether or not they will be looked at as well.


----------



## Edward Campbell

There are, as several people reported last week, overlapping and, possibly, conflicting responsibilities for security in the precincts of parliament - it gets worse on the streets around them.

I fully understand why the RCMP would like "fresh" and "disinterested" eyes to look at what happened last week and I'm sure they hope that a respected, very senior police officer will make some useful recommendations that will be hard to ignore ... hard, but not impossible. Many responsibilities, not just for security, are divided on the Hill between the House and the Senate and each _place_ is, for _constitutional_ reasons, reluctant to cede authority in one domain lest it be used, by the other _place_, to "empire build" in others.

You would think that life could be, and should be simpler, wouldn't you? Well, it isn't and it's time for a chat about that.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> That there are other organizations involved in Canada's counter-terrorism efforts such as CSIS and CSE, and whether or not they will be looked at as well.




Just a slightly  ff topic: reminder:

     CSEC is, amongst other things, a _foreign intelligence_ gathering agency ~ it spies on foreigners, listens to their phone calls, and reads their mail;* and

     CSIS is a counter-intelligence agency, as it's name implies, it is concerned with our security here at home. CSIS might need to gather some foreign intelligence to support its counter-intelligence goals,
     but, most often, its goals, the things it goes looking for, will be different from the things CSEC goes after.

It is generally agreed that intelligence and counter-intelligence functions ought to be kept (reasonably) separate and discrete.

_____
* Not "gentlemen" by Henry Stimson's infamous definition


----------



## dapaterson

RCMP Update: They're reviewing a video he made before the attack, and are tracking his spending.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/news-nouvelles/speeches-stat-discours-decl/2014/20141026-eng.htm?tw


----------



## The_Falcon

Yes and both agencies (amongst others) are presumably involved in the country's counter-_terrorism_ efforts, which is what DandB and I were referring to.  Are the RCMP only going to look at their piece of the pie, or the whole pie.


----------



## JS2218

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I think you, and anyone who agrees your post above, should read a few things for education and awareness and ensure your subordinates, etc know this as well.  Keep in mind, the case below was a Class A Reservist and challenged based on that she was not subj to the CSD.  CDS decision pending but I suspect a Deny by the FA.
> 
> MGERC - Policies on the use of social networks  Don't forget to read the Case Summary, Case # 2013-55.
> 
> Issue
> 
> It is a reality of modern society that increasing numbers of Canadians, military personnel included, are using social networks and have access to them via a variety of electronic platforms, including wireless networks, both in the workplace and elsewhere. Current policies and directives of the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) governing access to social networks are limited to the use of the Department of National Defence/CAF infrastructure. Case law indicates, however, that inappropriate comments posted by employees on social networks can lead to administrative and/or disciplinary measures, irrespective of the location, time or electronic platform used. The CAF should alert military personnel to the potential consequences they may suffer when posting comments on the social networks.
> 
> ** the MGERC review process includes Legal/JAG review steps.



It was my fault for not being clearer. I will rephrase: in said situations (criticizing a superior, giving away official secrets, etc), there are specific rules (QR&Os, DAODs, CFAOs, etc) in place prohibiting such behaviour. However, under what authority would an order be given to remove pictures and descriptors that identify one as a member of the CAF?


----------



## The Bread Guy

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Yes and both agencies (amongst others) are presumably involved in the country's counter-_terrorism_ efforts, which is what DandB and I were referring to.  Are the RCMP only going to look at their piece of the pie, or the whole pie.


In this RCMP news release ....


			
				dapaterson said:
			
		

> RCMP Update: They're reviewing a video he made before the attack, and are tracking his spending.
> 
> http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/news-nouvelles/speeches-stat-discours-decl/2014/20141026-eng.htm?tw


.... here's the wording they use:


> .... the RCMP has asked the Ontario Provincial Police to take complete conduct of the investigation of the shooting of Zehaf-Bibeau inside Parliament. The RCMP is confident we will have an authoritative and detailed account of the shooting, including a complete reconstruction of the heroic actions of those involved, in the weeks to come.


Barring any further statement/clarification by RCMP, this wording suggests to me that OPP'll primarily take apart who did what when inside Parliament, but it doesn't sound like a review of _everything_ that led to the incident outside Parliament.


----------



## The_Falcon

This goes back to what I was talking about earlier in the thread

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/10/26/not-every-person-who-feels-lost-is-mentally-ill-psychiatrist-warns-against-rush-to-portray-ottawa-gunman-as-crazy/



> ‘Not every person who feels lost is mentally ill': Psychiatrist warns against rush to portray Ottawa shooter as ‘crazy’
> 
> Sharon Kirkey, Postmedia News | October 26, 2014 | Last Updated: Oct 26 9:21 PM ET
> 
> Groping for answers, Michael Zehaf-Bibeau’s mother said her son was mentally unbalanced and desperate to escape an unhappy life before he made his suicidal charge across the lawn of Parliament Hill last week.
> 
> But a renowned U.S. psychiatrist cautions against the rush to loosely label Zehaf-Bibeau as “crazy” or attribute his perturbed state of mind before gunning down Cpl. Nathan Cirillo to a psychiatric disorder.
> 
> “It’s always a dangerous thing to diagnose anyone from a distance, especially when they’re dead,” said Dr. Allen Frances, a professor emeritus at Duke University who chaired the task force that produced the fourth version of psychiatry’s official manual of mental illness.
> 
> “Total mental balance is an ideal and elusive goal for any of us,” Frances said.
> 
> When something so horrific, bizarre and destructive happens, everyone searches for meaning, “and the natural, first thing that comes to mind is, well, he must be crazy,” Frances said.
> 
> 
> “But most criminals, most substance abusers and most political or religious extremists are ‘mentally unbalanced’ at least some of the time,” he said. “Our man was all of these.
> 
> “This doesn’t mean that we have a psychiatric diagnosis that fits him, or a psychiatric treatment that would have cured him, or an explanation for his behaviour that satisfies, or that we could ever predict who, or when.”
> 
> Related
> RCMP conducting threat assessment after Tom Mulcair demands 24-7 security in wake of Ottawa attack
> Michael Zehaf-Bibeau made video that suggests Ottawa shooting driven by ‘ideological, political motives': RCMP
> 'I am sickened by it': Ottawa shooter's mother pens a candid letter about her 'unhappy' son
> Rex Murphy: In our age of hollow celebrity, moral heroes emerge during a week of darkness
> 'I am sickened by it': Ottawa shooter's mother pens a candid letter about her 'unhappy' son
> 
> EXCLUSIVE: Michael Zehaf-Bibeau’s conversations were strange — he often spoke of the devil — leading the family to wonder, ‘Was he crazy?’
> 
> Read the letter …
> In an emotional and lengthy written statement to Postmedia News on Saturday, Susan Bibeau said her son had a serious addiction to drugs and that his conversations were strange — he often spoke of the devil, for instance — leading the family to wonder, “Was he crazy?”
> 
> She said her son was an unhappy person who was “at odds with the world,” and so he turned to religion and Islam as a way to make sense of it.
> 
> After reading the letter Saturday, Frances described it as deeply moving, a final statement to the media written by a “decent, intelligent, emotionally aware and deeply pained and guilty mother” who understood her son “better than anyone else could, or will.”
> 
> But he is concerned, too, that describing the shooter as mentally unbalanced doesn’t necessarily mean he had a definable psychiatric illness. “Not every person who feels lost or has a messed up life is mentally ill,” he said.
> 
> It also suggests someone has to be crazy to do violent things. There is some increase in violence among the severely mentally ill, Frances said. “But it’s not enormous, and they’re responsible for only a tiny amount of the violence in the world.”
> 
> Mental illness can make people more susceptible to extreme religious or political teachings or fanaticism, he said. The killer may have “globed onto” radical teachings that brought meaning “to what was previously his meaningless life.
> 
> “And if he was willing to kill and die for this, that is regrettable. It is something that all of us have to begin to worry about — how we’re going to prevent others from finding meaning in this bizarre way, this destructive way,” Frances said.
> 
> It’s hard to solve those problems. It’s hard to solve the alienation of youth, particularly youth of first- or second-generation immigrants
> Zehaf-Bibeau was a danger to society and to himself. But believing his actions those of a single, mentally sick man — a one-off aberration, an individual act — is easier than addressing the systemic problems that are dangerous and harder to deal with, Frances said, including disaffected youth and a society that permits easy access to drugs, weapons and bizarre political and religious extremisms.
> 
> “It’s hard to solve those problems. It’s hard to solve the alienation of youth, particularly youth of first- or second-generation immigrants,” Frances said.
> 
> “It’s easy to say, ‘oh, he’s just crazy.’ “
> 
> With files from Douglas Quan, Postmedia News


----------



## Cloud Cover

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Barring any further statement/clarification by RCMP, this wording suggests to me that OPP'll primarily take apart who did what when inside Parliament, but it doesn't sound like a review of _everything_ that led to the incident outside Parliament.



It is a trite fact that it is common professional practice to have one police service review the actions of another when there is a shooting. Especially when it occurred on property that is solely under the jurisdiction of the federal government, I don't believe there is an SIU type of organization that exists for the sole purpose of investigating wild shoot outs on Parliament Hill.   

Certainly there needs to be a conclusion found in fact and in law that the killing was justified, and while there is nothing to suggest otherwise, all of the facts need to be on record. It turns my stomach to state this, but you can imagine the outcry, for example, should it transpire that the shooter may have attempted to surrender himself and then was subsequently shot and killed.  Did they continue to put rounds into hi after he was down and no longer in control of his weapon. Was he funneled into a shooting gallery by the design of the security system in place? Things of that nature ...  I know these are shitty questions but they will be addressed and people should prepare themselves for the answers, they may not like what they read...


----------



## Occam

JS2218 said:
			
		

> It was my fault for not being clearer. I will rephrase: in said situations (criticizing a superior, giving away official secrets, etc), there are specific rules (QR&Os, DAODs, CFAOs, etc) in place prohibiting such behaviour. However, under what authority would an order be given to remove pictures and descriptors that identify one as a member of the CAF?



The issue is moot, anyways.  There is no new social media policy.  Someone "leaked" an old CFNCIU social media bulletin to CTV claiming it was some new social media policy and that its contents were orders.  I've been all over the DWAN this morning and there's not a hint of anything related to a new CF social media policy - no CANFORGENS, no messages, nothing on the national homepage, nothing.  And definitely not anything ordering members to remove anything from their profiles identifying themselves as CF members.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

It seems some people are busy trying to change the messaging to "deranged man with a gun attacks parliament, therefore we need more gun control". What a lot of people fail to realize is that the terrorist organizations target vulnerable people to act on their behalf. It may involve both a mentally unstable person and a terrorist organization at the same time.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Colin P said:
			
		

> It seems some people are busy trying to change the messaging to "deranged man with a gun attacks parliament, therefore we need more gun control". What a lot of people fail to realize is that the terrorist organizations target vulnerable people to act on their behalf. It may involve both a mentally unstable person and a terrorist organization at the same time.




Exactly, Colin: the IS** propaganda, which appears to be very slick and professional, aims to exploit the _*angst*_ of people who have difficulty succeeding in the modern, sophisticated, complex 21st century Western lifestyle. IS** offers them a chance to be "somebody" on a "winning" team. Even the violence is calculated to appeal to a certain sort of young man.

IS** probably has no idea who Michael Zehaf-Bibeau and Martin Couture-Rouleau were, and it doesn't care, either. It's *system* worked: it planted an idea into a couple of weak, confused minds and just waited for the 'bombs' to detonate themselves.

I'm _guessing_ both young men were "mentally unstable," although, of course, I have no qualifications to make that assessment. But I also _suspect_, with rather more confidence in my ability to do so, that their radicalization was part of a broad, long term _jihadist_ campaign plan.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Colin P said:
			
		

> It seems some people are busy trying to change the messaging to "deranged man with a gun attacks parliament, therefore we need more gun control". What a lot of people fail to realize is that the terrorist organizations target vulnerable people to act on their behalf. It may involve both a mentally unstable person and a terrorist organization at the same time.



The anti-gun mob is renowned for shamelessly dancing on graves and obfuscating fact in order to further their political agenda. Their self righteous indignation, that not everyone is like them, makes them believe the rights of others don't exist and you're subhuman until you drink their Utopian Kool Aid.  eace:

A pox on their house. :sword:


----------



## PPCLI Guy

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Exactly, Colin: the IS** propaganda, which appears to be very slick and professional, aims to exploit the _*angst*_ of people who have difficulty succeeding in the modern, sophisticated, complex 21st century Western lifestyle. IS** offers them a chance to be "somebody" on a "winning" team. Even the violence is calculated to appeal to a certain sort of young man.
> 
> IS** probably has no idea who Michael Zehaf-Bibeau and Martin Couture-Rouleau were, and it doesn't care, either. It's *system* worked: it planted an idea into a couple of weak, confused minds and just waited for the 'bombs' to detonate themselves.
> 
> I'm _guessing_ both young men were "mentally unstable," although, of course, I have no qualifications to make that assessment. But I also _suspect_, with rather more confidence in my ability to do so, that their radicalization was part of a broad, long term _jihadist_ campaign plan.



This is their genius, and our all too obvious failing.  These sociopathic nut-jobs are just that.  We give them, and by extension, ISIL, too much credit when we allow the narrative to be cast such that they were responding to the dictates of some unifying philosophy or credo.  10 years ago, the same sociopathic nut-jobs would have sought out out White Supremacists, or Basque Seperatists, or Bader Mein Hof or whatever in order to elevate their sociopathic nut-job-ness to something more compelling than just some maladjusted scumbag with mental issues.

These are not radicalized disaffected Canadian youths.  They are socio-paths, nut-jobs and losers and we should not allow them to be anything other than that.


----------



## Old Sweat

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> This is their genius, and our all too obvious failing.  These sociopathic nut-jobs are just that.  We give them, and by extension, ISIL, too much credit when we allow the narrative to be cast such that they were responding to the dictates of some unifying philosophy or credo.  10 years ago, the same sociopathic nut-jobs would have sought out out White Supremacists, or Basque Seperatists, or Bader Mein Hof or whatever in order to elevate their sociopathic nut-job-ness to something more compelling than just some maladjusted scumbag with mental issues.
> 
> These are not radicalized disaffected Canadian youths.  They are socio-paths, nut-jobs and losers and we should not allow them to be anything other than that.



I wonder if your point is not too narrow. These individuals may be vulnerable, but they are vulnerable to a doctrine that seems to provide a structure that has a comforting framework for a personality that is adrift or confused. Odious as the three doctrines you cite above are, they do not, in my humble opinion, have all that much in common with the more radical sects of Islam. Back to the latest two and some of their earlier cohorts, I fear they are, in the eyes of their particular 'ism,' expandable and the return from their passing is more than offset by their effect on Western society.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

and a doctrine that has been around for 1400 years and currently expanding and causing havoc over a good chunk of the globe, downplaying the connection will also make you more vulnerable and allow the silent majority of Muslims to remain just that. Notice how quick the mosques are responding, because they are feeling the heat. We just had a Saudi funded Sunni mosque open up in my city, you can bet that they are singing the praises of Unicorn farts. Saudi funded mosques have played a huge part in radicalizing the Islamic world. That issues has to be dealt with sooner or later.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> I wonder if your point is not too narrow. These individuals may be vulnerable, but they are vulnerable to a doctrine that seems to provide a structure that has a comforting framework for a personality that is adrift or confused. Odious as the three doctrines you cite above are, they do not, in my humble opinion, have all that much in common with the more radical sects of Islam. Back to the latest two and some of their earlier cohorts, I fear they are, in the eyes of their particular 'ism,' expandable and the return from their passing is more than offset by their effect on Western society.


\

Vulnerable is the key word here.  We have had equally vulnerable people in our society for many a decade, who have always been preyed upon, be it by criminal syndicates, gangs, "motorcycle clubs", and yes, even organised religions - each of which had some sort of compelling ideology / narrative / myth.  What has changed is the rise of global connectivity that has fostered a much larger market of ideologies / myths / narratives, and linked them with a much larger global pool of the "vulnerable".

And so I say again that we offer both the scumbags and the "isms" too much credit when we sensationalize the linkage between the two.


----------



## Edward Campbell

I take PPCLI Guy's point; the _information universe_ has certainly expanded and it allows more "ideologies/myths/narratives" to reach the "vulnerable" ... that's a good word.

_I think_ that the 'vulnerable' are not, usually, mentally ill ~ the mentally ill usually end up harming themselves, not others ~ but they lack the skills to cope with the world that confronts us all, the world with which the MSE Op private and the day labourer and the gas station attendant all cope well enough. The vulnerable are over at the left hand side of the bell curve* ...







... they aren't on the far left, with the truly mentally _disabled_, rather they are on the left edge of the second stanard deviation - not quite disabled, but not as _able_ as needed to be anything but a socio-economic failure.

But, I concede that the vulnerable, like the poor, are always with us (and they're often poor, too) and they often drift towards organizations like the Orange Order, Communists, Fascists and Nazis, Aryan Nations and, now, IS**.

But I do think that religiously based ideologies are very, very powerful: they offer a _certainty_ that e.g. communism or fascism cannot, they promise _*paradise*_ ~ for centuries Christianity offered the miserable poor (99.9% of the population) _hope_ that they could go to heaven and receive their just 'reward' for the lives of grinding poverty they endured on earth. It worked. Islam, I believe, offers a lot more than 72 virgins ... it, too, promises something even more desirable: success.

I _think_ Michael Zehaf-Bibeau and Martin Couture-Rouleau were failures and, what's more, I _suspect_ they knew they were failures and, above all else, they wanted to succeed, at something, at be accepted into something.

That means I _think_ there is more to IS** propaganda than meets the eye. I _fear_ that the IS** version of Goebbels is as good as the original and, for that reason, I believe we should take _*self radicalized "lone wolves"*_ seriously, not write them off as "nut cases."

_____
* May-Britt Moser Xi Jinping, Isamu Akasaki and e.g. Gen Nicholas Carter are all over on the right hand side


----------



## Edward Campbell

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> ... Barring any further statement/clarification by RCMP, this wording suggests to me that OPP'll primarily take apart who did what when inside Parliament, but it doesn't sound like a review of _everything_ that led to the incident outside Parliament.




Here's a report about some of the problems that bedevil simple security, much less counter-terrorism: _silos_/stovepipes and jurisdictional disputes (some of which are, actually rooted in the _Constitution_).


----------



## The Bread Guy

> I am writing to you from Europe, where I am currently undertaking an official visit, to let you know that my thoughts are with you at this difficult time. The Canadian Armed Forces is very much a family, and together we are mourning the loss of two comrades and the wounding of another. To all who have been affected by the recent despicable events in St-Jean-sur-Richelieu and in Ottawa, including fellow soldiers, friends and family members, my heart and the hearts of all Canadians go out to you.
> 
> These attacks have given all Canadians reason to pause and reflect upon the contributions of those who serve in the Canadian Armed Forces. While in Poland, the Netherlands and Belgium, I am participating in solemn ceremonies in locations where brave Canadians lost their lives in the First and Second World Wars. While the circumstances of those conflicts differed greatly from the challenges we face today, the bravery and dedication of our men and women in uniform remain constant. I have laid wreaths in communities and cemeteries in the memory of all Canadian servicemen and women, including Warrant Officer Patrice Vincent and Corporal Nathan Cirillo. To do so as your commander-in-chief on behalf of all Canadians is a great honour.
> 
> Everywhere I have been on this visit, people speak gratefully about the contributions of Canadian Armed Forces members, past and present. You should be very proud of your sense of duty and your commitment to defending the rights and freedoms we cherish in a democratic society. I will stand with you once again during this year’s Remembrance Week to pay tribute to those who have so bravely served Canada. I am certain that you will continue to find support from each other and from all Canadians during this challenging time, and I wish you the very best as we move ahead together.
> 
> David Johnston
> Governor General and Commander-in-Chief


Statement here


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Here's a report about some of the problems that bedevil simple security, much less counter-terrorism: _silos_/stovepipes and jurisdictional disputes (some of which are, actually rooted in the _Constitution_).


A possible problem that needs to be worked out is the overload of information on a new tac net. If it was all inclusive people may be walking all over each other. Try getting a word in edge wise  with combined arms when the tankers start doing their thing. Bloody hard.  ;D


----------



## The Bread Guy

Without taking away from ANY person's contribution to keeping folks safe this week, am I the only one thinking it might be a touch early to single out any one individual?


> The petition to honour Sergeant-at-Arms Kevin Vickers with the Cross of Valour -- Canada's highest civilian bravery decoration -- for shooting the Parliament Hill terrorist is gaining steam.
> 
> Vickers is credited with firing the first shots that brought down killer Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, 32, last Wednesday outside the entrance to the Library of Parliament, where he reached after gunning down Cpl. Nathan Cirillo, 24, who was standing sentry at the National War Memorial.
> 
> The Cross of Valour is the second-highest bravery award that can be given in Canada next to the Victoria Cross, which is only bestowed upon Canadian Forces members or allies serving under Canadian military command.
> 
> Public Safety Minister Stephen Blaney told reporters in Ottawa on Monday that the petition, launched by Sun News contributor Kevin Gaudet, is a great idea.
> 
> “I would sign that petition because I am very grateful to be here today to help keep our country safe,” Blaney said.
> 
> Gaudet said he was moved by Vickers' heroic actions last Wednesday.
> 
> “It’s the ultimate act of bravery," he said. "He was in the line of fire.”
> 
> NDP MP Paul Dewar took it a step further, saying that it’s important to recognize all involved in keeping MPs safe during the shootings.
> 
> “Kevin should be praised, but anything we can do to recognize the group which saved our lives would be great as well,” Dewar said Monday.
> 
> Annabelle Cloutier, a spokesman for Governor General David Johnston, said that thanks to Gaudet’s initiative, a recommendation will be put forward to have Vickers receive the honour.
> 
> Cloutier said they are also looking into how best to recognize the “courage and bravery” of all involved ....


More from Sun News here.


----------



## cryco

I agree with you. From the video that was taken during the gunfght, it looks like there was a lot of security right behind him waiting to take the shot. I just so happened that Mr Vickers took the shot that killed him. Kudos to him for that. 
Btw, do we have any info on how many times the criminal was shot, and where?


----------



## cupper

cryco said:
			
		

> I agree with you. From the video that was taken during the gunfght, it looks like there was a lot of security right behind him waiting to take the shot. I just so happened that Mr Vickers took the shot that killed him. Kudos to him for that.
> Btw, do we have any info on how many times the criminal was shot, and where?



It seems to me that there was something about this in the briefing by the RCMP Commissioner(?) that was given about the unfolding of events. From what I can recall it was quite a few rounds that hit him.


----------



## The_Falcon

cupper said:
			
		

> It seems to me that there was something about this in the briefing by the RCMP Commissioner(?) that was given about the unfolding of events. From what I can recall it was quite a few rounds that hit him.



The CBC had a video, saying Mr. Vickers fired the entire magazine in his pistol at point blank range at the perp.  From the video they used google maps walk through feature to show where this all took place.  Basically the perp, was hiding behind a pillar, kitty corner to Mr. Vickers office.


----------



## cryco

thanks HM, i found that video. The guy was peppered. Wouldn't matter where he was hit with that number of rounds that got him.


----------



## cupper

Here is the CBC article I was referring to.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ottawa-shooting-the-face-to-face-encounter-that-ended-the-attack-on-parliament-1.2812802


----------



## Edward Campbell

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Just a slightly  ff topic: reminder:
> 
> CSEC is, amongst other things, a _foreign intelligence_ gathering agency ~ it spies on foreigners, listens to their phone calls, and reads their mail;* and
> 
> CSIS is a counter-intelligence agency, as it's name implies, it is concerned with our security here at home. CSIS might need to gather some foreign intelligence to support its counter-intelligence goals,
> but, most often, its goals, the things it goes looking for, will be different from the things CSEC goes after.
> 
> It is generally agreed that intelligence and counter-intelligence functions ought to be kept (reasonably) separate and discrete.
> 
> _____
> * Not "gentlemen" by Henry Stimson's infamous definition




More about this issue here. The knee jerk reaction is to:

     1. Think that counter-terrorism is more important than many, many other intelligence and security missions - I'm not sure that is the case, at all; and

     2. To want to expand CSIS, just because it's there; also a wrong answer.

I _think_ we need a Secret Intelligence Service, separate from CSEC, the SIGINT service, and from CSIS, the counter-intelligence/security service. But: I doubt that CSEC or a new SIS would be focues much, and certainly not mainly, on counter-terrorism. CSIS has the authority to work overseas in support of its missions, it my need more _*capacity*_ (money and people).

We need to also remember that CSIS is not a law enforcement agency; it does not bring people to the bar of justice; that's the job of national, provincial and local police forces and crown prosecutors ~ they too need more, better focused authority and resources (money and people).


----------



## Gunner98

Let's look at the events of last Wednesday and how Canadians would have responded to ends of the spectrum:

1.  Gunman bypasses War Memorial and goes straight to parliament and starts shooting senior officials.  State funerals, tightening security, nation in mourning?  Flowers surround parliament buildings. Does the CAF leadership order civilian dress for soldiers in public since civilians, in particular bureaucrats are most at risk.

2.   Gunman wakes up and is too lazy to leave the Ottawa Mission, starts shooting homeless and is overhwelmed and killed by a homeless woman.  Is she immediately nominated for a medal of bravery?  Are homeless people quietly buried in pauper's graves?  Does the CAF leadership order civilian dress for soldiers in public or are we just glad most of soldiers and veterans won't become homeless people at risk?

The precedent set by the nation's reaction over the detour that he made to the War Memorial is shocking.  How do we respond if things become more frequent?


----------



## Remius

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> Let's look at the events of last Wednesday and how Canadians would have responded to ends of the spectrum:
> 
> 1.  Gunman bypasses War Memorial and goes straight to parliament and starts shooting senior officials.  State funerals, tightening security, nation in mourning?  Flowers surround parliament buildings. Does the CAF leadership order civilian dress for soldiers in public since civilians, in particular bureaucrats are most at risk.
> 
> 2.   Gunman wakes up and is too lazy to leave the Ottawa Mission, starts shooting homeless and is overhwelmed and killed by a homeless woman.  Is she immediately nominated for a medal of bravery?  Are homeless people quietly buried in pauper's graves?  Does the CAF leadership order civilian dress for soldiers in public or are we just glad most of soldiers and veterans won't become homeless people at risk?
> 
> The precedent set by the nation's reaction over the detour that he made to the War Memorial is shocking.  How do we respond if things become more frequent?



I'm not getting your point.  The comparison is a poor one if you ask me.


----------



## Gunner98

This not about a comparison - it is a contrast, 'a spectrum'. It does not surprise me that someone might not get it - bureaucrats, military and homeless people - are we not all equal?


----------



## Remius

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> This not about a comparison - it is a contrast, 'a spectrum'. It does not surprise me that someone might not get it - bureaucrats, military and homeless people - are we not all equal?



While we are all equal (in theory at least) in most things.  How one dies, is killed, under what circumstances, in what environment, in what conditions however is not equal.  

Thus receiving an unequal amount of attention and or reaction (justified or not).


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> This not about a comparison - it is a contrast, 'a spectrum'. It does not surprise me that someone might not get it - bureaucrats, military and homeless people - are we not all equal?



The answer is clear, no we are not. Why does a politician get armed security when a guy running a all night store down near Jane and Finch does not?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Without taking away from ANY person's contribution to keeping folks safe this week, am I the only one thinking it might be a touch early to single out any one individual?More from Sun News here.



I'll bet that this presentation, if it happens, will be absolutely supersonic compared to the years that a soldier, receiving a similar decoration, would have to wait for theirs.

We'll see.


----------



## jollyjacktar

recceguy said:
			
		

> I'll bet that this presentation, if it happens, will be absolutely supersonic compared to the years that a soldier, receiving a similar decoration, would have to wait for theirs.
> 
> We'll see.



To be fair, however, how rare is it to have the heroic deed of said soldier caught on national TV or by any camera for that matter?  The only thing I can think of off the top of my head of a medal worthy deed being caught on film would be Maj. Currie VC of the SAR.

Not demeaning *any* past, present or future deeds of galantry by members of the CAF.

You're point is well taken and of course has been pointed out before, the glacial pace of recognition for said deeds by our honours and awards system.  One of it's major failings in my opinion.


----------



## kratz

recceguy said:
			
		

> I'll bet that this presentation, if it happens, will be absolutely supersonic compared to the years that a soldier, receiving a similar decoration, would have to wait for theirs.
> 
> We'll see.



I was having similar thoughts, but as noted did not want to voice it and take away from what was done.


----------



## Treemoss

The procession is pretty gut-wrenching and solomn.


----------



## PanaEng

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Yes and both agencies (amongst others) are presumably involved in the country's counter-_terrorism_ efforts, which is what DandB and I were referring to.  Are the RCMP only going to look at their piece of the pie, or the whole pie.


The RCMP will only get to look at the relevant pieces of the pie as ascertained by a, maybe joint, review of the information. They will not and should not have access to all of it.
(as much as that may pain some ppl, the RCMP is not in the business of intelligence - in a broad sense -  but law enforcement)


----------



## McG

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Without taking away from ANY person's contribution to keeping folks safe this week, am I the only one thinking it might be a touch early to single out any one individual? More from Sun News here.


Is security, including with a firearm, not his job?  Should every infantry private who did his job in contact be up for the Cross of Valour?  Every police officer who had to return fire?



			
				Offstar1029 said:
			
		

> This is looking like organized small scale terrorist attacks. A man attacks 2 soldiers in Saint Jean Sur Richelieu killing one injuring the other, not to long after a man attacks and kills a soldier in Ottawa then enters the parliament buildings probably in an  attempt to go after our leaders, and now there's reports of an armed man near Brunswick and Duke streets in Halifax. This can't just be random attacks they're happening to soon after ISIS threatened Canada and are happening to soon after each other.


Lesson from insider attacks in Afghanistan: one incident acts as a catalyst to others.  A guy sitting on the fence over doing one of these attacks is emboldened upon learning somebody else has just done it.  After an insider attack, there is a period of weeks of statistically significant higher risk ... and then things settle as the fence-sitters continue to dither.

At worst, I suspect the second attack was inspired or catalysed by (but not coordinated with) the first attack.  It may also have just been coincidence.  Regardless, hightened vigilance against domestic attack is reasonable for a few weeks.


----------



## stonington

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> This not about a comparison - it is a contrast, 'a spectrum'. It does not surprise me that someone might not get it - bureaucrats, military and homeless people - are we not all equal?


The question is too vague.
Equal before the law?
Access to equal opportunities?
Equal outcome?
These each have different meanings.


----------



## Gunner98

Colin P said:
			
		

> The answer is clear, no we are not. Why does a politician get armed security when a guy running a all night store down near Jane and Finch does not?



The guy running the all night store does so at his own financial and personal risk, and other than financial cost there is nothing that prevents him from hiring a type of security.


----------



## RedcapCrusader

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> The guy running the all night store does so at his own financial and personal risk, and other than financial cost there is nothing that prevents him from hiring a type of security.



But not Armed Police Sentry like Mr Muclair will receive... That's the difference.


----------



## Gunner98

RedcapCrusader said:
			
		

> But not Armed Police Sentry like Mr Muclair will receive... That's the difference.



The difference...the difference is Mr. Muclair chose to run for politics and his constituents elected him. 

Mr. 7-11 was not elected (although he may have run for office) and chose to sell Slurpees in a dangerous part of town.


----------



## jollyjacktar

No, we are not all equal or born equal for that matter.  Some of us are gifted in their abilities and can leverage them to their advantage to get ahead.  Others are in the right place at the right time, or are ambitious to do what is needed to get ahead.  Or it might be a matter of choice and career path or not as they're disadvantaged somehow due to birth, physical/mental limitations etc. 

Someone will always have the upper hand or better side of town than the others.  Life is like that and no, it's not fair, but that's life.  The big wheels will and always have had protection assigned to them to protect them from those who would do them harm.  Tis the way of the world.


----------



## Loachman

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> The difference...the difference is Mr. Muclair chose to run for politics and his constituents elected him.
> 
> Mr. 7-11 was not elected (although he may have run for office) and chose to sell Slurpees in a dangerous part of town.



So what _*is*_ the difference?

Both made choices to accept employment that may put them at some level of risk. Being "elected" is irrelevant. Nobody forced Mr Mulcair to seek election, and he could quite easily have found alternate, less risky, employment.

The Charter of Rights and Freedoms recognizes that "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice." It does not recognize that Mr Mulcair has a greater right, or that somebody has a lesser right because they run a convenience store.

Mr Mulcair seeks to deprive honest citizens of the best means of protecting their rights to life, liberty and security of the person by banning defensive firearms while at the same time whining that he should be entitled to be protected by defensive firearms. He is a hypocrite.

If he is serious about self-protection, he can take a firearms safety course, get an RPAL, buy a pistol, and apply for authrization to carry just like any other citizen and have exactly identical chance of self-defence.

*That's* equality that I can support.


----------



## Gunner98

Loachman,

Both leaders of parties in the opposition voted against Canada`s involvement in the combat mission against ISIL, so it is not surprising that he is seeking and being granted armed protection.  When I saw Mr. Harper hugging them in the House of Commons, when they reconvened, IMHO it almost as an apology rather than a sign of solidarity. Considering the best security forces could come up with to protect the PM from a loan gunman was to hide him in a closet-like anteroom.  Was that really the SOP?‏ 

Sources:  http://ottawacitizen.com/news/politics/after-losing-vote-on-isil-combat-mission-opposition-scrambles-for-position
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/10/23/stephen_harper_had_to_hide_in_closet_during_gun_fight_on_the_hill.html


----------



## Loachman

And the convenience store operator would not likely even have the ability to hide in a broom closet during a robbery attempt.

Is his life and safety of any less value than Mr Mulcair's?

In the absence of a specific threat directed to Mr Mulcair, he can take advantage of all of the self-defence methods and tools available to every other citizen. Equality for all.


----------



## daftandbarmy

I find it interesting that, whenever we feel that we have lost control over the ability to effectively deter/ kill/capture the evil doers, we always tend to focus on criticizing/judging the innocent victims/targets.

I guess that's why Dirty Harry movies were so popular. That, and the huge calibre hand guns of course.  ;D


----------



## TCM621

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> The difference...the difference is Mr. Muclair chose to run for politics and his constituents elected him.
> 
> Mr. 7-11 was not elected (although he may have run for office) and chose to sell Slurpees in a dangerous part of town.


Also, killing the guy at 7-11 doesn't present the symbolism killing the head of the official opposition (or any parliamentarians). MPs and soldiers are symbols of canada where as the 7-11 clerk is a symbol of slurp es.  If one wanted to make a statement, killing a member of the legislature of a country will do it.


----------



## Treemoss

I think we're all starting to under value slurpees and 7-11s now.


----------



## YZT580

I see that Mr. Mulcair has called the shooter on Monday a criminal and not a terrorist.  So does that mean he was just after the guard's wallet and then was entering the House of Commons to try and collect some more?  The chap left a tape explaining his actions and claiming solidarity with Islam.  Until people will acknowledge the problem we haven't got a chance of finding a solution.  Several things we know.  1. He was a Muslim. 2.  It is likely that he was slightly deranged but not enough to be classified as insane.  He knew what he was doing.  3.  He was influenced by the extreme sentiments expressed by the leaders of ISIS and took action as a result.  Those leaders have exhorted their followers to make Jihad wherever they may live (including Canada).  Thus this susceptible young man committed a terrorist act as a result.  By anybody's logic (except left wing types like Mulcair who like to blame the system or his parents or the like) that makes his actions those of a terrorist. 4.  One murder could possibly be passed off as insanity but a second within a couple of days puts the odds heavily in favour of another explanation: namely Islam.  

A few years back the operator of an abortion clinic in the states was gunned down by a person that the press gleefully identified time and time again as being an evangelical and made no bones about connecting the faith with the action.  Peculiar isn't it that although multiple murders have been committed both in Canada and the States by individuals declaring themselves as acting for Allah the press, the politicians and many others go out of their way either totally ignore this fact or point out that these folks don't really represent Islam.  They say they do so the very least the press is doing is branding them as liars or they (the press) are saying that they don't know anything about their own faith.  How did so many politicians become such experts on Islam?  Have they even read the Koran or Mohammed's other writings?  If they had they would know that what the terrorists are saying is far more accurate than what the press is declaring.  

Finally, criminals are being falsely maligned by Mr. Mulcair even suggesting that this chap was a criminal and should initiate legal action against Mulcair for damages.


----------



## Gunner98

YZT580,

Most of these deranged, radicalized converts have not read the Quran; they have generally had it interpreted by a radicalizing Imam. Have you read it?  I have tried to read a respected translation and it is not easy to comprehend or follow from one section to another. 

The individual was forgiven for frequently breaking into an Alberta mosque to sleep there.  These actions were not reported to the police.  He had been committed of drug and robbery offenses.  Therefore, he was a convicted criminal even before he became a shooter.


----------



## Haggis

YZT580 said:
			
		

> I see that Mr. Mulcair has called the shooter on Monday a criminal and not a terrorist.



By doing so, Mr. Mulcair may have actually done Cpl Cirollo's family a favour since most insurance policies will not pay out of the insured is killed in an act of war, including a terrorist attack.

Terrorist or criminal, the one definition we can all agree on is "nutjob".


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> The difference...the difference is Mr. Muclair chose to run for politics and his constituents elected him.
> 
> Mr. 7-11 was not elected (although he may have run for office) and chose to sell Slurpees in a dangerous part of town.



But Muclair is not planning on paying for the security but you expect Mr Slupree to do so. No one forced Muclair to run for office either and they both get a level of taxpayer protection from the police and Muclair already gets an extra layer of the Parliament security, but that is not good enough for him. Anyway in Muclair mind it's purely a criminal matter he is free to call 911 next time.


----------



## The Bread Guy

If there's a case to be made for Mulcair to be protected as a public figure representing Canada's elected will, then that case can be made for _all_ elected politicians.

To me, the question seems to be more like:  how critical is the Leader of the Opposition to the running of government if something happens to the Head of Government and/or the Executive?  If you look at the latest (that I can find, anyway) "who's next if the guy ahead of me can't do the job?" list, even if Mulcair's a member of the Privy Council, I'm not seeing any Leader of the Opposition or leader of the third or fourth party there.


----------



## a_majoor

The leader of the opposition is the head of "the government in waiting", and under certain curcumstances it would be appropriate for the Governor General to request that the opposition leader organize a government.

According to "Victor Suvrov" in one of his books on the GRU, the Soviet Union had plans to decapitate Western governments by assasinating both Government and Opposition leaders, in order to prevent a nucleus of leadership from remaining and organizing the Western nations warfighting capabilities. While this might be taken with a grain of salt, there is an element of plausibility, since opposition leaders are well known enough that they _could_ serve to rally the government and nation in the absence of the government leader. (The USSR might also have looked at the examples of "national unity" governments or wartime coalitions, as well as mirroring the weakness of their own highly centralized system). I would imagine terrorist organizations might come to similar conmclusions about Western democracies.

Whatever one may think of Mr Mulcair, his position is both high profile and the proverbial few steps away from the seat of power, so it is appropriate to think about the issue at the very least.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

The thought of Muclair taking over the government even as an emergency step causes my stomach to churn. Democracies strength is that politicians are really quite expendable and we have a decent supply of them.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Thucydides said:
			
		

> The leader of the opposition is the head of "the government in waiting", and under certain curcumstances it would be appropriate for the Governor General to request that the opposition leader organize a government.
> 
> (....)
> 
> Whatever one may think of Mr Mulcair, his position is both high profile and the proverbial few steps away from the seat of power, so it is appropriate to think about the issue at the very least.


While far from being a constitutional expert, based on my reading & understanding (and I stand to be corrected), the Leader of the Opposition, no matter what party s/he may be leader of, is *far* more than a "few steps" from becoming PM, given how many cabinet Ministers would have to be incapacitated before I think that would even be considered.


----------



## TCM621

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> While far from being a constitutional expert, based on my reading & understanding (and I stand to be corrected), the Leader of the Opposition, no matter what party s/he may be leader of, is *far* more than a "few steps" from becoming PM, given how many cabinet Ministers would have to be incapacitated before I think that would even be considered.


The point is that the governor general could (in theory) ask him to form a government tomorrow.  In the case of a minority, this is a very real possibility. 

It isn't like the U.S where the leader can only be replaced at an election, even if that is the norm. The opposition could become the government if the governing party loses the confidence of the house. This would be particularly important if the governing party lost confidence during a time when elections wouldn't be immediately feasible like a war.

*at least, this how I understand the British parliamentary system.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> The point is that the governor general could (in theory) ask him to form a government tomorrow.  In the case of a minority, this is a very real possibility.


Even with a minority, unless every Cabinet Minister is unable to pick up the torch and most MPs wouldn't be able to do the work, I'm thinking the government in power would keep cobbling together an executive, no matter how much the opposition asks for otherwise.



			
				Tcm621 said:
			
		

> The opposition could become the government if the governing party loses the confidence of the house. This would be particularly important if the governing party lost confidence during a time when elections wouldn't be immediately feasible like a war.
> 
> *at least, this how I understand the British parliamentary system.


Not impossible (and I guess one would have to judge the potential of such a thing happening to assess the level of protection needed for the Leader of the Opposition), I guess, but pretty unlikely.

Then again, who'd have thought a month ago that an unarmed sentry could be executed in cold blood at the national cenotaph?


----------



## TCM621

Senators and congressmen are entitled to protection  in the U.S. (googling that may put me on a watch list BTW). This through the auspices of the capital police. Why shouldn't we afford our lawmakers the same privilege? If it is a money thing.  Make parties pay a premium per MP to off set the cost. As long as it is reasonable and the same cross the board it should be fair. 1000 per year for put 300 grand in to security and that would be on the very low end of reasonable).   It would still be primarily funded by tax payers but it would show a willingness to contribute to their own security. 

I also think the RCMP should give up the security of Parliament and politicians and turn it over to a dedicated force. Then that force could concentrate on being the best at protection rather policing and the protection.


----------



## a_majoor

:highjack:

For history wonks the "King-Byng affair" in 1926 is a perfect example of the GG using the reserve powers of the office to have a minority leader replaced by the opposition leader.

While perfectly correct under constitutional law, given the circumstances, King managed to spin the affair (Arthur Meighen was unable to maintain the confidence of the House after the GG had appointed him to take the helm), and won the election. This also ultimately resulted in the GG being less public about his/her role in government (the question of the actual extent of the GG's Reserve Powers have never been fully tested, which is probably for the good).

Given the examples of history (King-Byng; National unity governments and so on) the idea of providing protection to opposition leaders should be given some serious consideration.


----------



## kratz

I don't consider Thucydides' post a hijack at all. In fact, I believe his point is germane to the discussion.


----------



## YZT580

But where do you stop?  What about spouses and children?  They are as much on the front line as their elected half. As the attempted assassination of Reagan showed, you can't prevent a nutcase from taking a shot.  Sadly, that is the price that a politician pays for being a politician.  I always feel for the guard on the gate at places like embassies and official residences.  The person standing guard has got to know that he is the first one that is going to be taken out in the event of any attempt and there is very little he can do about it.  I can see it for heads of state etc. but why should the life of the leader of the opposition be any more valuable than that of the guard at the gate.  He chose his occupation, the guard is following orders.  If his party wants him protected, they can pay for it.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Pulling it back a moment to the troops killed in the attacks - Prince Charles continues to show himself to be a class act ....


> Prince Charles has made what is being described as a substantial donation to the families of the two Canadian soldiers killed recently in separate attacks.
> 
> Clarence House confirmed a donation was made to the True Patriot Love Foundation, which is managing the flood of money coming in through the Stand on Guard Fund. The contribution was made explicitly for the families of Cpl. Nathan Cirillo and Warrant Officer Patrice Vincent.
> 
> The Prince of Wales’ Charitable Foundation isn’t revealing the amount of the donation, but a source close to the matter called it “substantial.” ....


----------



## The Bread Guy

> Nearly 100 members of Edmonton's Muslim community held a prayer ceremony in front of the Alberta Legislature on Friday to express their condolences to the families of slain soldiers Warrant Officer Patrice Vincent and Cpl. Nathan Cirillo.
> 
> Vincent, a veteran soldier who was killed in a deliberate hit-and-run attack in St. Jean-sur-Richelieu, will be honoured Saturday with a military funeral. Cirillo, who was gunned down last week as he stood guard at the War Memorial in Ottawa, was laid to rest in Hamilton on Tuesday.
> 
> Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, the man who fatally shot Cirillo, was a recent Muslim convert. People like Zehaf-Bibeau who are radicalized "have a misunderstanding of what Islam stands for," said Murtada Shah with the Muslim Association of Canada.
> 
> "In my mind and the Muslim Association of Canada, Islam represents peace and our purpose is to contribute to the benefit of society wherever we are," said Shah, who helped organize Friday's ceremony.
> 
> Edmonton-Mill Woods MLA Sohail Quadri participated in the ceremony. He said the community of Cold Lake showed the generosity of Canadians when they painted over graffiti placed at a local mosque ....


A bit more here


----------



## The Bread Guy

This just out ....


> Corporal Branden Stevenson issued the following statement:
> 
> “Nathan Cirillo was my friend, though he was more like a brother. We met in Grade 9 and from that time on, we were pretty much inseparable. He was the first from our group of friends to join the Canadian Armed Forces and it earned him the nickname 'Army Nate.' It was his love of the Army that inspired me to join, and I remember going to his house to practice my swearing-in ceremony.
> 
> “We did everything together from hanging at the mall to going on double-dates, so it was an incredible honour when we were both chosen to come to the National War Memorial to stand-to as sentries. We were very proud to be here together watching over the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, honouring all those who have fallen.
> 
> “Over the past few years, Nathan and I would routinely drive around together, making jokes that no one else would understand. Neither of us had much of a voice, but that didn't stop us from singing along with every song on the radio, whether we knew the words or not. It seemed as if we were always laughing and joking about something. The morning of October 22 was no different. As we stood sentry and walked the beat, one of my socks was sagging. Nathan smiled and intentionally kept our walk going so my sock would fall a little more. He had such an amazing personality!
> 
> “What happened shortly after left me in shock and grieving the loss of my best friend. My heart goes out to his family for the terrible loss they have to endure. I am still struggling to cope with everything that has happened. My family, the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders in Hamilton, and my extended family within the Canadian Armed Forces are helping me through this very difficult time. I am overwhelmed by the outpouring of support from across Canada and around the world.
> 
> “In the coming days, I'll be resuming my duties at the National War Memorial. It will not be an easy task, but I am resolved to do it in honour of Nathan, Warrant Officer Patrice Vincent, and all those who stood, and continue to stand, on guard for Canada. I still believe Canada is a nation of peace where soldiers within its borders need not take up arms. My fellow soldiers and I remain proud and committed to watching over the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier as a strong, silent reminder of every person who made the ultimate sacrifice.
> 
> “I now have to learn to live without someone who was closer to me than I can put into words. When I resume my post, I will not be conducting interviews with media. I appreciate, in advance, your consideration and respect for my privacy during this difficult time.
> 
> “Nathan Cirillo was my friend, my best friend, my brother. I will miss him forever.”


----------



## cryco

When I read that today, I was so moved. That was his best bud he was guarding with, long time friends.
Good on him to go back when he's ready.


----------



## Edward Campbell

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> More about this issue here. The knee jerk reaction is to:
> 
> 1. Think that counter-terrorism is more important than many, many other intelligence and security missions - I'm not sure that is the case, at all; and
> 
> 2. To want to expand CSIS, just because it's there; also a wrong answer.
> 
> I _think_ we need a Secret Intelligence Service, separate from CSEC, the SIGINT service, and from CSIS, the counter-intelligence/security service. But: I doubt that CSEC or a new SIS would be focues much, and certainly not mainly, on counter-terrorism. CSIS has the authority to work overseas in support of its missions, it my need more _*capacity*_ (money and people).
> 
> We need to also remember that CSIS is not a law enforcement agency; it does not bring people to the bar of justice; that's the job of national, provincial and local police forces and crown prosecutors ~ they too need more, better focused authority and resources (money and people).





This might have gone in our Killing With Keyboards thread, but it is germane to how we gather intelligence. This report is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Financial Times_ and it is accompaniued by a video report:

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/c89b6c58-6342-11e4-8a63-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3I6MkvyJG


> The web is a terrorist’s command-and-control network of choice
> *People do not want social media platforms to facilitate murder, writes Robert Hannigan*
> 
> Robert Hannigan
> 
> November 3, 2014
> The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (Isis) is the first terrorist group whose members have grown up on the internet. They are exploiting the power of the web to create a jihadi threat with near-global reach. The challenge to governments and their intelligence agencies is huge – and it can only be met with greater co-operation from technology companies.
> 
> Terrorists have long made use of the internet. But Isis’s approach is different in two important areas. Where al-Qaeda and its affiliates saw the internet as a place to disseminate material anonymously or meet in “dark spaces”, Isis has embraced the web as a noisy channel in which to promote itself, intimidate people, and radicalise new recruits.
> 
> The extremists of Isis use messaging and social media services such as Twitter, Facebook and WhatsApp, and a language their peers understand. The videos they post of themselves attacking towns, firing weapons or detonating explosives have a self-conscious online gaming quality. Their use of the World Cup and Ebola hashtags to insert the Isis message into a wider news feed, and their ability to send 40,000 tweets a day during the advance on Mosul without triggering spam controls, illustrates their ease with new media. There is no need for today’s would-be jihadis to seek out restricted websites with secret passwords: they can follow other young people posting their adventures in Syria as they would anywhere else.
> 
> The Isis leadership understands the power this gives them with a new generation. The grotesque videos of beheadings were remarkable not just for their merciless brutality, which we have seen before from al-Qaeda in Iraq, but for what Isis has learnt from that experience. This time the “production values” were high and the videos stopped short of showing the actual beheading. They have realised that too much graphic violence can be counter-productive in their target audience and that by self-censoring they can stay just the right side of the rules of social media sites, capitalising on western freedom of expression.
> 
> Isis also differs from its predecessors in the security of its communications. This presents an even greater challenge to agencies such as GCHQ. Terrorists have always found ways of hiding their operations. But today mobile technology and smartphones have increased the options available exponentially. Techniques for encrypting messages or making them anonymous which were once the preserve of the most sophisticated criminals or nation states now come as standard. These are supplemented by freely available programs and apps adding extra layers of security, many of them proudly advertising that they are “Snowden approved”. There is no doubt that young foreign fighters have learnt and benefited from the leaks of the past two years.
> 
> Link to _FT_ video: UK spy chief pursues tech sector
> 
> GCHQ and its sister agencies, MI5 and the Secret Intelligence Service, cannot tackle these challenges at scale without greater support from the private sector, including the largest US technology companies which dominate the web. I understand why they have an uneasy relationship with governments. They aspire to be neutral conduits of data and to sit outside or above politics. But increasingly their services not only host the material of violent extremism or child exploitation, but are the routes for the facilitation of crime and terrorism. However much they may dislike it, they have become the command-and-control networks of choice for terrorists and criminals, who find their services as transformational as the rest of us. If they are to meet this challenge, it means coming up with better arrangements for facilitating lawful investigation by security and law enforcement agencies than we have now.
> 
> For our part, intelligence agencies such as GCHQ need to enter the public debate about privacy. I think we have a good story to tell. We need to show how we are accountable for the data we use to protect people, just as the private sector is increasingly under pressure to show how it filters and sells its customers’ data. GCHQ is happy to be part of a mature debate on privacy in the digital age. But privacy has never been an absolute right and the debate about this should not become a reason for postponing urgent and difficult decisions.
> 
> To those of us who have to tackle the depressing end of human behaviour on the internet, it can seem that some technology companies are in denial about its misuse. I suspect most ordinary users of the internet are ahead of them: they have strong views on the ethics of companies, whether on taxation, child protection or privacy; they do not want the media platforms they use with their friends and families to facilitate murder or child abuse. They know the internet grew out of the values of western democracy, not vice versa. I think those customers would be comfortable with a better, more sustainable relationship between the agencies and the technology companies. As we celebrate the 25th anniversary of the spectacular creation that is the world wide web, we need a new deal between democratic governments and the technology companies in the area of protecting our citizens. It should be a deal rooted in the democratic values we share. That means addressing some uncomfortable truths. Better to do it now than in the aftermath of greater violence.
> 
> _The writer is the director of GCHQ, a UK government intelligence and security organisation_




I'm not going to comment, beyond saying that _I think_ Mr Hannigan is right to make this problem public, even as I say that _I also think_ that GCHQ and NSA and CSEC and all the other allied SigInt agencies are far, Far, FAR too _public_ already. _In my opinion_ I and you and all the other Canadians (and Australians, Brits and Kiwis and Americans, too) have* no need to know* about SigInt and no_* right*_ to know about it either.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Well done ....


> Canadian Armed Forces members deployed on Operation IMPACT are commemorating Warrant Officer Patrice Vincent and Corporal Nathan Cirillo by naming two of their locations after the members.
> 
> One of the locations of Air Task Force – Iraq (ATF-I) has been named Camp Vincent, in honour of Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) Warrant Officer Vincent. Likewise, the operations base of Canadian Special Operations Forces Command (CANSOFCOM) in Iraq is now called Patrol Base Cirillo, in honour of Corporal Cirillo, a Canadian Army Reserve soldier with The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders of Canada.
> 
> *Quick Facts*
> 
> The dedication of Camp Vincent and Patrol Base Cirillo by members deployed on Operation IMPACT is an initiative generated by the deployed CAF personnel intended to pay tribute to both Warrant Officer Patrice Vincent and Corporal Nathan Cirillo, as well as all those who died in service on home soil.
> 
> The naming of Camp Vincent and Patrol Base Cirillo coincides with Remembrance Day, which is commemorated annually to remember Canadians who served in the military in past conflicts and especially those who paid the supreme sacrifice.
> 
> RCAF Warrant Officer Patrice Vincent, a member of the Joint Personnel Support Unit, Integrated Personnel Support Centre St-Jean, died as a result of injuries sustained in Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu, Quebec, on October 20, 2014.
> 
> Corporal Nathan Cirillo was a member of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders of Canada (Princess Louise’s) based in Hamilton, Ontario. He died as a result of injuries sustained while on duty at the National War Memorial on October 22, 2014.
> 
> Operation IMPACT is the Canadian Armed Forces contribution to the Middle East Stabilization Force, the international coalition assisting security forces in the Republic of Iraq who are fighting against the ISIL ....


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Not a flattering article on the idiot shooter

I like this quote: _He also says he doesn't believe that Zehaf-Bibeau owned a rifle or hunted.

"He didn't know even how to use a wrench. Mike was the kind of guy who you would send out of the tunnel to bring you a hammer, and he would come back half an hour later with a big wrench and say he couldn't find the hammer, but hey, this is big, why don't you hit it with that?"
_

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/michael-zehaf-bibeau-showed-b-c-co-workers-jihadi-videos-1.2838296


----------



## JS2218

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/politics/four-weeks-later-what-we-know-and-dont-about-michael-zehaf-bibeau



> Four weeks later: What we know – and don't – about Michael Zehaf-Bibeau
> 
> Exactly four weeks ago Wednesday, gunman Michael Zehaf-Bibeau rushed onto Parliament Hill after killing a guard at the National War Memorial – only to be killed himself in the Hall of Honour inside the Centre Block.
> 
> But beyond their initial statements in the days immediately after the attack, police and security officials have revealed little about what they know. Meanwhile, Prime Minister Stephen Harper has deemed the Oct. 22 attack a “terrorist” act, and the government is forging ahead with legislation on terror threats.
> 
> With national policies now being shaped in the aftermath of the shooting, here is what we still don’t know.
> 
> *What is in the video Michael Zehaf-Bibeau allegedly took?*
> What we know: The RCMP last issued a statement Oct. 26. The next day, Commissioner Bob Paulson told a Senate committee that police recovered “a device” owned by Zehaf-Bibeau that contained a video. In that video, Zehaf-Bibeau appears “quite deliberate, he was quite lucid, and he was quite purposeful in articulating the basis for his actions. And they were in respect, broadly, to Canada’s foreign policy, and also in respect of his religious beliefs.” Paulson said the video had to be assessed before being made public.
> 
> The RCMP’s national and terrorism divisions both declined Tuesday to answer further questions about the video, citing the ongoing investigation.
> 
> What we don’t know: When, if ever, will the video be made public? Will the police have to suppress parts of it? Was it shot on a smart phone and if so, where did that come from?
> 
> *How did he get his weapons?*
> What we know: The RCMP recovered a knife from Zehaf-Bibeau’s body, which they say he obtained from his aunt’s Mont-Tremblant, Que. home on the eve of the attack. The Citizen has learned that investigators believe Zehaf-Bibeau planned to behead a Canadian politician. The day of the attack, Zehaf-Bibeau used a .30-30 Winchester lever-action rifle.
> 
> What we don’t know: Is there more to the beheading theory? How did Zehaf-Bibeau obtain the rifle when he had been barred by court order from owning a gun in Canada? How much ammunition did he have? Did he own other weapons?
> 
> *Did he have associates?*
> What we know: After saving money from working in the oilsands, Zehaf-Bibeau arrived in Ottawa on Oct. 2. He slept in a shelter, surfed the Internet there and at Ottawa’s public library, took a tour of Centre Block on Oct. 4, bought a car, visited his mother and had loud arguments in public. After the shooting, an undated photo of Zehaf-Bibeau holding a gun and wearing a keffiyeh scarf surfaced on social media sites promoting Islamist terror groups. After the shooting, police said Zehaf-Bibeau’s email was found in the hard drive of an unnamed person who has been charged with terrorism-related offences.
> 
> What we don’t know: How did Zehaf-Bibeau spend the bulk of his time in Ottawa? Did he meet with anyone or contact anyone about the attack? Where did the photo of him come from? Did he have any firm connections to extremists in Canada or overseas?
> 
> *What were his motives?*
> What we know: Zehaf-Bibeau tried in early October to get a passport, but faced problems with background checks. RCMP Commissioner Paulson said the passport’s delay “was central to what was driving” Zehaf-Bibeau and “figured prominently in his motives.” He said the gunman had “radical views.”
> 
> Susan Bibeau, mother of the gunman, said a severe drug addiction plagued her son. He turned to religion and Islam to try to make sense of the world, she said. Susan Bibeau suspected that delays getting a passport made him feel “cornered, unable to stay in the life he was in, unable to move on to the next one he wanted to go to.”
> 
> In her opinion, his violent assault was likely more an act of desperation than one driven by ideology or political motive.
> 
> What we don’t know: Did Zehaf-Bibeau yell, “For Iraq,” while running from the war memorial, as one witness suggested? Did Zehaf-Bibeau leave behind any kind of manifesto or anything in writing? What evidence makes Paulson believe Zehaf-Bibeau “was an individual who may have had extremist beliefs?”
> 
> *How are the police reviews going?*
> What we know: The Ontario Provincial Police is investigating how RCMP and Ottawa police officers responded to the attacks. “It’s very much continuing and ongoing at this time. There is no identified date of completion – it will be completed when it’s done,” OPP Sgt. Peter Leon said Tuesday. He added that any findings will be given to the RCMP, who will decide what becomes public.
> 
> Meanwhile, Ottawa police say they’re reviewing how well they responded to the shooting, but won’t release any information until the RCMP makes its findings public.
> 
> What we don’t know: Have security gaps been identified? How many shots were fired by police that day? What happens if the OPP finds problems with the response?
> 
> *What about the security review of Parliament?*
> What we know: It took Michael Zehaf-Bibeau 83 seconds to get from the National War Memorial to the doors of the Peace Tower, over the course of which he hijacked a minister’s vehicle and approached the front doors of Centre Block, where an unarmed House of Commons guard was shot in the leg. A policeman tried to intervene but was stopped when a panicky tourist entered his car. Sergeant-at-Arms Kevin Vickers was part of the gunfight outside the Library of Parliament that killed Zehaf-Bibeau, but says he can’t yet talk about it. A House security review has been ordered, and it includes the video of Zehaf-Bibeau’s Oct. 4 tour of the Hill.
> 
> What we don’t know: When can Vickers give his version of events publicly? There are discrepancies in the account of Vickers’ role, though no one doubts he was a heroic player. When can the injured guard, or other guards, tell their stories? What new security measures are in place? Will Parliament Hill get a unified security force – three security teams are currently responsible – two years after the auditor general recommended such an approach? Was Parliament Hill security strengthened already after Canada decided to take military action against ISIL in Iraq?


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

The whole gun thing shows how obtuse our political leadership is.


----------



## The Bread Guy

For the record, here's what the Criminal Code says about treason:


> _*Treason and other Offences against the Queen’s Authority and Person
> *_
> 
> *High treason*
> 
> 46. (1) Every one commits high treason who, in Canada,
> 
> (a) kills or attempts to kill Her Majesty, or does her any bodily harm tending to death or destruction, maims or wounds her, or imprisons or restrains her;
> 
> (b) levies war against Canada or does any act preparatory thereto; or
> 
> (c) assists an enemy at war with Canada, or any armed forces against whom Canadian Forces are engaged in hostilities, whether or not a state of war exists between Canada and the country whose forces they are.
> 
> *Treason*
> 
> (2) Every one commits treason who, in Canada,
> 
> (a) uses force or violence for the purpose of overthrowing the government of Canada or a province;
> 
> (b) without lawful authority, communicates or makes available to an agent of a state other than Canada, military or scientific information or any sketch, plan, model, article, note or document of a military or scientific character that he knows or ought to know may be used by that state for a purpose prejudicial to the safety or defence of Canada;
> 
> (c) conspires with any person to commit high treason or to do anything mentioned in paragraph (a);
> 
> (d) forms an intention to do anything that is high treason or that is mentioned in paragraph (a) and manifests that intention by an overt act; or
> 
> (e) conspires with any person to do anything mentioned in paragraph (b) or forms an intention to do anything mentioned in paragraph (b) and manifests that intention by an overt act.
> 
> *Canadian citizen*
> 
> (3) Notwithstanding subsection (1) or (2), a Canadian citizen or a person who owes allegiance to Her Majesty in right of Canada,
> 
> (a) commits high treason if, while in or out of Canada, he does anything mentioned in subsection (1); or
> 
> (b) commits treason if, while in or out of Canada, he does anything mentioned in subsection (2).
> 
> *Overt act*
> 
> (4) Where it is treason to conspire with any person, the act of conspiring is an overt act of treason.
> 
> _*Punishment for high treason*_
> 
> 47. (1) Every one who commits high treason is guilty of an indictable offence and shall be sentenced to imprisonment for life.
> 
> *Punishment for treason*
> 
> (2) Every one who commits treason is guilty of an indictable offence and liable
> 
> (a) to be sentenced to imprisonment for life if he is guilty of an offence under paragraph 46(2)(a), (c) or (d);
> 
> (b) to be sentenced to imprisonment for life if he is guilty of an offence under paragraph 46(2)(b) or (e) committed while a state of war exists between Canada and another country; or
> 
> (c) to be sentenced to imprisonment for a term not exceeding fourteen years if he is guilty of an offence under paragraph 46(2)(b) or (e) committed while no state of war exists between Canada and another country.
> 
> *Corroboration*
> 
> (3) No person shall be convicted of high treason or treason on the evidence of only one witness, unless the evidence of that witness is corroborated in a material particular by evidence that implicates the accused.
> 
> *Minimum punishment*
> 
> (4) For the purposes of Part XXIII, the sentence of imprisonment for life prescribed by subsection (1) is a minimum punishment.
> 
> *Limitation*
> 
> 48. (1) No proceedings for an offence of treason as defined by paragraph 46(2)(a) shall be commenced more than three years after the time when the offence is alleged to have been committed.
> Marginal note:Information for treasonable words
> 
> (2) No proceedings shall be commenced under section 47 in respect of an overt act of treason expressed or declared by open and considered speech unless
> 
> (a) an information setting out the overt act and the words by which it was expressed or declared is laid under oath before a justice within six days after the time when the words are alleged to have been spoken; and
> 
> (b) a warrant for the arrest of the accused is issued within ten days after the time when the information is laid.


----------



## George Wallace

So.  According to those criteria, any sentence less than "Life Imprisonment" is not following in the 'Spirit of the Law' as laid out by our Criminal Code.  

It would seem that so far, our Courts have not been following the 'Spirit of the Law' in sentencing all our 'Terror Cases' to date.

We are our own worse enemy.


----------



## The Bread Guy

George Wallace said:
			
		

> So.  According to those criteria, any sentence less than "Life Imprisonment" is not following in the 'Spirit of the Law' as laid out by our Criminal Code.
> 
> It would seem that so far, our Courts have not been following the 'Spirit of the Law' in sentencing all our 'Terror Cases' to date.


How many of those cases found someone guilty of treason or high treason, though?


----------



## George Wallace

That is just it.  None.  The Courts are too leery to sentence a person for Treason, even if they fill the criteria.


----------



## Remius

All things considered, we're not the only country to be that way.

It seems worldwide that convictions for treason are rare occurences in most countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_convicted_of_treason


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

George Wallace said:
			
		

> That is just it.  None.  The Courts are too leery to sentence a person for Treason, even if they fill the criteria.



Don't blame the Courts. It is the Crown Prosecutors, originally "guided" by the police, that decide what charge to lay against the accused criminals.

Give the Court the charge of treason or high treason and provide them with the appropriate evidence and they will find the accused guilty and then punish them according to the law.


----------



## MilEME09

Perhaps as more of a shock factor, we need to capture a Canadian who has joined ISIL, and put him on trial for High treason. The fact it's never been done might be more of a shock factor to the average public then one else.


----------



## The Bread Guy

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Perhaps as more of a shock factor, we need to capture a Canadian who has joined ISIL, and put him on trial for High treason.


Assuming one lives long enough to be nabbed....


> .... Mohammed Hafez, (chairman of the department of national security affairs at the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, Calif. ) who studies (ISIS/ISIL) and use of transnational suicide bombers (said) Suicide bombers often are drawn from among the group’s cadre of thousands of foreign fighters. “They are trying to put people in the right spot,” he says. *“If you have no skills or you can’t speak Arabic, the easiest thing for you to do is drive a car and blow it up.* Everyone knows how to drive.” Skilled and ­experienced fighters, he says, are needed for combat ....


----------



## The Bread Guy

> Students at the Edmonton Islamic Academy made a big donation to some special Canadian military families on Wednesday.
> 
> The children presented a cheque for $10 thousand to the Edmonton Garrison’s Second in Command Lt. Col. Mike Connelly on Wednesday morning. The money will be passed along to the families of the fallen soldiers in the attacks in Ottawa and Quebec in October ....


More here


----------



## TCM621

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> More here


Canada's Muslim community has really served as a model of how Muslims should respond to Islamic terrorism. It is sad that they waited this long but more Muslims speaking out makes the terrorist message less powerful.


----------



## McG

The CAF victims of these attacks have been voted Canada's news makers of the year.


> Soldiers murdered on home soil chosen as Canada’s Newsmaker of the Year
> Colin Perkel, Canadian Press
> The Globe and Mail
> 21 Dec 2014
> 
> Two Canadians killed in cold blood on home soil for simply wearing a soldier’s uniform have been selected the country’s Newsmaker of the Year for 2014.
> 
> Warrant Officer Patrice Vincent and Cpl. Nathan Cirillo, whose senseless murders in October shook the country, were the top choice of editors and news directors surveyed by The Canadian Press.
> 
> “It’s very sad but very deserved,” Vincent’s eldest sister Louise Vincent said in her first interview since his funeral.
> 
> “First it was a family death and after that we realized that his death was not only ours.”
> 
> Indeed, the two unsuspecting and unarmed soldiers quickly became household names for reasons Canadians could barely fathom.
> 
> Vincent, 53, described as a quiet, determined person who was always looking to help others, died Oct. 20 after a “radicalized” Martin Rouleau, 25, deliberately ran him down in a parking lot in Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu, Que.
> 
> Two days later, with the country struggling to process Vincent’s death, terror gripped the nation’s capital when Michael Zehaf Bibeau shot Cirillo, 24, in the back before storming Parliament Hill and dying in a hail of bullets.
> 
> The photogenic, dog-loving reservist had been quietly standing ceremonial guard with an unloaded weapon at the Tomb of the Unknown soldier when he was attacked without warning.
> 
> Once again, Canadians were dismayed and saddened at the prospect of a soldier killed on home soil — this time someone who might have looked like a “big tough man” but was, as a cousin said, “such a kid at heart.” Photographs of Cirillo’s dogs poking their heads from beneath the fence of the family home in Hamilton only added to the palpable grief.
> 
> Even before his state-like funeral, Canadians learned of the valiant efforts to save and comfort the dying father of a five-year-old boy.
> 
> “You are so loved,” lawyer Barbara Winters said she repeatedly told him.
> 
> In scenes not seen since the repatriation of soldiers killed in Afghanistan, thousands of Canadians lined the “Highway of Heroes” to show support for the two men.
> 
> “These two men did not ask to be in the news,” said Fred Hutton, news director with VOCM in St. John’s.
> 
> “They were random victims who were thrust into the spotlight by deranged individuals who made us all question our own safety.”
> 
> Michel Lorrain, general director with Cogeco nouvelles in Montreal, noted in his survey comments how rare it is in Canadian history for soldiers to be killed outside of a combat mission.
> 
> Their deaths, said Murray Guy, managing editor of the Times and Transcript in Moncton, N.B., symbolized Canada’s “sudden loss of innocence in a world where we thought we were all detached from the dark threat of terror that has plagued so many seemingly so far away.”
> 
> In all, Cirillo and Vincent picked up 23 of the 85 votes cast to be named 2014 Newsmaker.
> 
> Cirillo’s still-grieving family refused to comment but Louise Vincent called the result a show of respect for the depths of their sacrifice.
> 
> …


To see the whole story and runners-up, see here: 
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/soldiers-killed-on-home-soil-chosen-as-canadas-newsmaker-of-the-year/article22170991/


----------



## jollyjacktar

This is interesting.



> Updated
> Kevin Vickers to be named ambassador to Ireland
> 
> Sergeant-at-arms of the House of Commons lauded for confronting shooter on Parliament Hill
> 
> CBC NewsPosted: Jan 08, 2015 9:27 AM ET|Last Updated: Jan 08, 2015 10:46 AM ET
> Kevin Vickers, the House of Commons sergeant-at-arms who became a household name in October after his confrontation with a gunman in the hallway on Parliament Hill, will be Canada's next ambassador to Ireland.
> 
> Vickers will replace Loyola Hearn, who has been in the post since Jan. 12, 2011. The former Conservative cabinet minister from Newfoundland and Labrador had retired from politics three years before he was appointed.
> 
> Full story here http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/kevin-vickers-to-be-named-ambassador-to-ireland-1.2893764


----------



## The Bread Guy

Oopsie ....


> The RCMP tried to restrict the movements of Martin Couture-Rouleau weeks before he used a car to run down two Canadian soldiers in Quebec, but prosecutors said they didn't have enough evidence to obtain a peace bond, CBC News has learned.
> 
> (....)
> 
> Police knew the 25-year-old as a Muslim convert who made increasingly radical statements on social media and had arrested him in July before he could board a plane to Turkey, only to be told they had to let him go.
> 
> "We interviewed him and [with] the information we had and the statement he provided to us, we [did] not have enough evidence to charge him and to detain him," RCMP Supt. Martine Fontaine told CBC News.
> Martin
> 
> Couture-Rouleau was released after RCMP seized his passport and added him to the 90 or so individuals on their watch list.
> 
> Now, CBC News has learned officers tried several weeks later to place Couture-Rouleau under a peace bond, which would have forced him to agree to meet certain conditions or go to jail.
> 
> Once again, prosecutors told police they didn't have enough evidence under the law, which says there must be evidence that a person will commit a terrorism offence.
> 
> (....)
> 
> Peace bonds have only been used eight times since 2001 for terrorism suspects — six of them related to members of the 2006 Toronto 18 plot, and two others against a couple who are now charged with plotting to blow up the B.C. legislature. The pair —​ John Nuttall and Amanda Korody —​ recently pleaded not guilty in a Vancouver court.
> 
> Critics claim that's proof police aren't using the tools they already have. But government sources insist the current legal requirements put the tools too far out of reach ....


----------



## daftandbarmy

Not a bit like 'Independence Day' it seems...


How top military brass handled shooting on Oct. 22


As government officials scrambled to find out what was occurring during the Oct. 22 attack on the National War Memorial and Parliament Hill, one of the’s top priorities of the Chief of Defence Staff was determining whether the event was an isolated attack.

Emails exchanged by Gen. Tom Lawson and other military brass, obtained by the Citizen, also show one top official briefly locked out of headquarters and others just across from Parliament Hill leaving their buildings despite a police lockdown in the centre core.

But overall, their emails reflect a calm, methodical approach to assessing the events, in sharp contrast to the confusion reported at some Canadian Forces bases.

“Interested in ensuring we have visibility across the nation to confirm that this is localized,” Lawson wrote his colleagues within an hour of the shooting. He sent three similar messages that morning from his BlackBerry while under lockdown in the Langevin Block across from Parliament Hill.

At 11 a.m., Lawson wrote to his second-in-command, Lt.-Gen. Guy Thibault: “I need to be able to report to NSA (the prime minister’s National Security Adviser) that we have done a nationwide scan and found ‘picture clean,’ or the alternative. Can we have a call-out fan conducted, and a check with NORAD?”

Around the same time, there was minor confusion when Lawson and two colleagues were taken out of the Langevin Block.

“We are cleared to leave now, and will stand by to hear where to meet the car,” Lawson wrote. But Maj.-Gen. Michael Hood, director of staff, advised that “press is reporting that there is an active shooter on the Hill. Recommend you stay put and under cover.” Nonetheless, Lawson was driven away minutes later, along with his personal assistant and senior legal officer, Maj.-Gen. Blaise Cathcart.




http://ottawacitizen.com/news/politics/military-brass-quickly-in-touch-with-u-s-officials-on-day-of-shootings


----------



## vonGarvin

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> At 11 a.m., Lawson wrote to his second-in-command, Lt.-Gen. Guy Thibault: “I need to be able to report to NSA (the prime minister’s National Security Adviser) that we have done a nationwide scan and found ‘picture clean,’ or the alternative. Can we have a call-out fan conducted, and a check with NORAD?”


I see that they fixed their earlier error.  Initially this story came with a tag line along the lines of "Harper was contacting the US during the attack".  They misread NSA to mean the US agency.


----------



## The Bread Guy

JS2218 said:
			
		

> Sounds like the journalists cast a wide net into DND, likely for an overly broad ATIP on anything related to "negative Ceremonial Guard incidents." These certainly aren't the first times a drunk tourist has pissed on the Memorial or some idiots tried to grab a rifle or harass the Guards. Obviously, they're now trying to build a narrative of "see, you were warned the soldiers at the Memorial were in danger."


If you have a look at "here's the requests DND's completed" list, you can see "trawler" requests like "Please provide a list of all briefing material, reports, memoranda and presentations prepared for the VCDS for the period of 1 to 30 Sep 14. Please include potential cabinet confidence," or "All emails and Blackberry pins to and from the CDS between 7:30 a.m. and 10:30 a.m. on Oct. 22, 2014. Please include potential cabinet confidence," from which I'm guessing they can either 1) bore down with more specific requests, or 2)  pick/choose from the cull to write about.


----------



## The Bread Guy

One year later ....


> A solemn ceremony was held Tuesday for Warrant Officer Patrice Vincent, who was killed in a politically motivated hit-and-run attack in St-Jean-sur-Richelieu, one year ago today.
> 
> The event, organized by the Royal Canadian Legion of St-Jean-sur-Richelieu, celebrated the memory of the Canadian Services officer killed in a parking lot by jihadist Martin Couture-Rouleau ....


More memorials coming Thursday:


> A ceremonial service to commemorate the Parliament Hill shooting and the lives of two soldiers killed on their home soil last October is set to take place at the National War Memorial on Thursday morning.
> 
> The prime minister, Governor General, military officials, Ottawa's mayor and members of the public will gather around the granite arch of the memorial to pay tribute.
> 
> The ceremony will take place one year to the day after Cpl. Nathan Cirillo, 24, was shot in the back three times while standing guard at the memorial, the first event in a five-minute attack during which the shooter stormed Parliament Hill's Centre Block.
> 
> The ceremony will also commemorate Warrant Officer Patrice Vincent, a 53-year-old Canadian Forces member who was purposefully run down in a hit-and-run attack in Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu, Que., just two days before Cirillo was slain.
> 
> The families of the two soldiers are expected to attend the ceremony.
> 
> Outgoing Prime Minister Stephen Harper is expected to lay a wreath at the memorial.
> 
> The ceremony will include the flyby of CF-18 Hornets in "missing man" formation at 11:20 a.m., a 21-gun salute by the 30th Field Artillery Regiment and a speech by Gov. Gen David Johnston ....


----------



## CherryCherry

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> Canada's Muslim community has really served as a model of how Muslims should respond to Islamic terrorism. It is sad that they waited this long but more Muslims speaking out makes the terrorist message less powerful.



I know this comment was made nearly a year ago, but I can't let it lie. It's pretty offensive for you to expect that a certain people conduct themselves a certain way in order to not be lumped in with the extremists of any group, religion, classification, or organisation to which they belong. You might be Christian, for example, but I don't expect you to speak out against the loony tunes who harass women outside sexual health clinics to prove you're not one of them.

I've seen time and time again people posting in these very forums, referring directly to pieces of legislation which instruct us that persons are innocent until proven guilty. Expecting Muslims to meet your standard of behaviour goes against this.

"It is sad that they waited this long"? No one was looking for this message before the media sought it out. What's really sad is that they feel they have to do this to not be seen negatively. Anyone with half a brain knows that what Middle Eastern terrorists are doing and preaching is a bastardisation of Islam that is unrecognisable to Muslims.


----------



## PuckChaser

The difference is though, that Christians in Canada have been around for generations, so people know what to expect. Islam is new as a major western religion, and needs an active PR campaign to show what it's all about. I would expect the Canadian Jewish congress to stand up publicly against terrorism if they had a fundamentalist group suicide bombing, and cutting people's heads off that were non-believers. That's how western society works, we're so influenced by images we see in media, and so quick to tar everyone with the same brush, that an active campaign needs to be held to distance from the crazies. One only needs to look at the fear campaign against Harper and his Christian values. Social media would have made you believe he was going to personally bomb an abortion clinic.


----------



## opcougar

Wow.....Yes Christians in Canada and the US have been around for ever, but that hasn't stopped them from attacking planned parenthood etc. Yes we know what to expect, but is it right i.e. we should just rollover and accept it? In the same token, minorities have been around for ever in Canada, yet racism persists (subliminally and blatantly) in Canada.

You are right that we are influenced by images and what we hear / see in the media.....does that mean minorities need an active PR to ward off racists and xenophobes then???????



			
				PuckChaser said:
			
		

> The difference is though,* that Christians in Canada have been around for generations,* so people know what to expect. Islam is new as a major western religion, and needs an active PR campaign to show what it's all about. I would expect the Canadian Jewish congress to stand up publicly against terrorism if they had a fundamentalist group suicide bombing, and cutting people's heads off that were non-believers. That's how western society works, *we're so influenced by images we see in media, and so quick to tar everyone with the same brush, that an active campaign needs to be held to distance from the crazies.* One only needs to look at the fear campaign against Harper and his Christian values. Social media would have made you believe he was going to personally bomb an abortion clinic.


----------



## Jed

opcougar said:
			
		

> Wow.....Yes Christians in Canada and the US have been around for ever, but that hasn't stopped them from attacking planned parenthood etc. Yes we know what to expect, but is it right i.e. we should just rollover and accept it? In the same token, minorities have been around for ever in Canada, yet racism persists (subliminally and blatantly) in Canada.
> 
> You are right that we are influenced by images and what we hear / see in the media.....does that mean minorities need an active PR to ward off racists and xenophobes then???????



I think you are bass akwards on this. Thanks to the BS Media the common person needs PR to ward off those that call ordinary folk racists and xenophobes.


----------



## opcougar

"ordinary folks"...is that how we refer to people who can see past colour now? I think you know what am talking about, and just trying to shy away from reality. By the sound of things, you seem to think Canadian society is full of people that just get along???? Right, and then we all wake up



			
				Jed said:
			
		

> I think you are bass akwards on this. Thanks to the BS Media the common person needs PR to ward off those that call ordinary folk racists and xenophobes.


----------



## vonGarvin

opcougar said:
			
		

> Wow.....Yes Christians in Canada and the US have been around for ever, but that hasn't stopped them from attacking planned parenthood etc.



These "attacks" are largely just vocal opposition to a group that performs legally protected homicide.
There are a few cases of arson and murder, but these are mostly years ago and are the exception and not the norm. Typical "attackers" are people like the woman who is constantly jailed for silently protesting at abortion "clinics". To compare their opposition to planned parenthood to the acts of Muslim terrorists is shady at best and blatant lying at worst.

Instead use the IRA as an example, or that Catholic terrorist Guy Fawkes.


----------



## opcougar

Vocal...where have you been living; you haven't heard of petrol bombs, graffiti , etc?



			
				Technoviking said:
			
		

> *These "attacks" are largely just vocal opposition to a group* that performs legally protected homicide.
> There are a few cases of arson and murder, but these are mostly years ago and are the exception and not the norm. Typical "attackers" are people like the woman who is constantly jailed for silently protesting at abortion "clinics". To compare their opposition to planned parenthood to the acts of Muslim terrorists is shady at best and blatant lying at worst.
> 
> Instead use the IRA as an example, or that Catholic terrorist Guy Fawkes.


----------



## Brad Sallows

If you have a hard time seeing a distinction, think about the number of provocative people willing to openly slag Christianity and the number willing to openly slag Islam.

Domestic terrorism takes many forms, with varying objectives.  But most eco-terrorists and hardcore pro-lifers  and separatists/nationalists aren't a danger to uniformed soldiers (or most other agents of the state, except when the terrorists are cornered).  Furthermore, most - nearly all - past terrorism in Canada supported specific aims and was fairly narrowly targeted.  This idea that we should never feel safe because disenchanted losers recruited to the cause could run amok at any time is novel.


----------



## opcougar

Mate...the problem is Christianity gets slagged by other Christians let alone other faiths. A terrorist is just that period...lets not start nit picking and saying it's OK for one form and not the other. This is akin to stealing and burglary....is it OK to shoplift vice break into a home? Both should deserve the same punishment regardless...period.


----------



## c_canuk

CherryCherry said:
			
		

> I know this comment was made nearly a year ago, but I can't let it lie. It's pretty offensive for you to expect that a certain people conduct themselves a certain way in order to not be lumped in with the extremists of any group, religion, classification, or organization to which they belong. You might be Christian, for example, but I don't expect you to speak out against the loony tunes who harass women outside sexual health clinics to prove you're not one of them.
> 
> I've seen time and time again people posting in these very forums, referring directly to pieces of legislation which instruct us that persons are innocent until proven guilty. Expecting Muslims to meet your standard of behaviour goes against this.
> 
> "It is sad that they waited this long"? No one was looking for this message before the media sought it out. What's really sad is that they feel they have to do this to not be seen negatively. Anyone with half a brain knows that what Middle Eastern terrorists are doing and preaching is a bastardisation of Islam that is unrecognisable to Muslims.



horse shit, any time someone pulls something despicable in the name of Christianity all social media is full of Christians loudly announcing "THIS IS NOT WHAT WE STAND FOR!"

Anytime a Christian leader says something prejudiced and discriminatory you will see a huge debate in public if that person has a point or not, and you will find the majority of people are freely open about mocking them and dismissing their beliefs as not representative of the majority.

If someone comes forward and does something heinous in the name of your chosen group of associates, regardless of their name, it is your duty and responsibility to come forward and loudly proclaim "THIS IS NOT WHAT WE STAND FOR!" regardless of what the name of your org is.

If we don't know where you stand when something happens, and you don't clarify, we have to assume you have no strong feelings one way or another.

If you don't protect your trademark, someone will appropriate it for their own needs. The assumption is that if you don't assert your control over your trademark, you are giving consent.

Deal with it.


----------



## a_majoor

Ultimately, the objective of terrorism is about power. Power over the population, power to force changes to the policy of governments and even power to overthrow the State (often the stated aim of the terrorist groups, even if there are huge gaps in their abilities to do so).

Historically, terrorism has been conducted under all kinds of flags and in the name of virtually every religion, ideology and idea imaginable. Probably the main difference b between today and the past is people are far more empowered, so individuals have access to information and equipment that would be unimaginable to even '70's era groups like the Red Army Faction, the FLQ or the Badder-Meinhoff Gang. In relative terms, the State is weaker vis a vis terrorists (much like the decaying Russian Empire was wracked by terrorist groups in the 1800's), giving then that much more of an edge.

So blaming religion or other ideas is stopping short of where the real issue is: people who are looking for ways to achieve power outside of existing social, economic and political structures. The fact they can wrap themselves in various flags or cloak their actions with rhetorical devices is just a way to justify their actions to the larger audience and perhaps gain adherents to the cause. Discrediting the ideologies or "causes" is an important step, isolating the active members from possible resources and support, but in the end, it does not take too many people to put us at risk (one might contemplate that the British Army was engaged in a long running war with the PIRA from the "Troubles" in the 1960's until 2007, and it was estimated that the PIRA's active shooters only numbered about 250 altogether).


----------



## jollyjacktar

CherryCherry said:
			
		

> I know this comment was made nearly a year ago, but I can't let it lie. It's pretty offensive for you to expect that a certain people conduct themselves a certain way in order to not be lumped in with the extremists of any group, religion, classification, or organisation to which they belong. You might be Christian, for example, but I don't expect you to speak out against the loony tunes who harass women outside sexual health clinics to prove you're not one of them.
> 
> I've seen time and time again people posting in these very forums, referring directly to pieces of legislation which instruct us that persons are innocent until proven guilty. Expecting Muslims to meet your standard of behaviour goes against this.
> 
> "It is sad that they waited this long"? No one was looking for this message before the media sought it out. What's really sad is that they feel they have to do this to not be seen negatively. Anyone with half a brain knows that what Middle Eastern terrorists are doing and preaching is a bastardisation of Islam that is unrecognisable to Muslims.



If the adherents of any particular faith/belief system can get out in the streets to shout and decry cartoons or what is offending them from an outsider, then they can do the same for what is offensive from within.  It cuts both ways.  Fair or not, it appears some are all to ready to wail about the one side and keep mum on the other.  The silence is seen by some as a silent approval.


----------



## ArmyRick

I think thucydides hit the nail right on the head!

Terrorism is about gaining and retaining power. I do not believe for a second that those at the top of the whole Islamic state are truly driven by "some religious calling"  but rather a grab for control of populations. Chances are they whip up a frenzy of anger and excitement amongst people living in desperation or as I watched on a BBC documentary, IS was detaining and brainwashing children. They also had a nice display of heads stuck on poles in the streets and then claimed to be "functioning normally". Right.

To sum it up, I think the leaders use religion/or whatever cause they want to recruit/force the desperate to fight and die for them.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Thucydides is only partially correct. Terrorism is a tactic ... it is a tactic normally favoured by the weak because it is cheap, simple and, sometimes, effective. As the organizations employing terrorism become more powerful they, usually, adopt other, better tactics. Consider, as a good example, the _Viet Minh_: from mid 1941, when they were formed they employed terrorism against the French, from 1942 to 45 they employed the same tactics but expanded into _guerrilla_ warfare against the Japanese and then against the French again, but by 1954 the Viet Minh army that defeated the French at Dien Bien Phu was just that, an army, which, later, resorting, sometimes, again to _guerrilla_ tactics, met, engaged and, arguably, beat the US in the Viet Nam War.

The move from terror to _guerrilla_ to convention warfare tactics, and back again, as necessary, is a measure of the relative strengths of the contending parties.


----------



## Loachman

CherryCherry said:
			
		

> the loony tunes who harass women outside sexual health clinics



Who is more "loony" - those who protest against organized mass-murder of the innocent, or those who wilfully participate?

One party with a pretty valid interest in the "Pro-Choice" argument gets absolutely no choice whatsoever, just death.

Rather a hypocritical selection of movement name - just like "Liberal" or "Progressive".


----------



## Jed

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Thucydides is only partially correct. Terrorism is a tactic ... it is a tactic normally favoured by the weak because it is cheap, simple and, sometimes, effective. As the organizations employing terrorism become more powerful they, usually, adopt other, better tactics. Consider, as a good example, the _Viet Minh_: from mid 1941, when they were formed they employed terrorism against the French, from 1942 to 45 they employed the same tactics but expanded into _guerrilla_ warfare against the Japanese and then against the French again, but by 1954 the Viet Minh army that defeated the French at Dien Bien Phu was just that, an army, which, later, resorting, sometimes, again to _guerrilla_ tactics, met, engaged and, arguably, beat the US in the Viet Nam War.
> 
> The move from terror to _guerrilla_ to convention warfare tactics, and back again, as necessary, is a measure of the relative strengths of the contending parties.



So as an extention of this thought, where a less powerful, but more determined force like the Viet Cong can take down a very powerful, but internally divided force like the USA Military.

Maybe we should be taking very hard line approaches to forces like ISIL to protect our own country of Canada similar to the way Israel takes on their Enemies?

I do believe ISIL is starting to project beyond the middle East. The Western world should annilate them now before they become powerful.


----------



## Cloud Cover

Jed said:
			
		

> Maybe we should be taking very hard line approaches to forces like ISIL to protect our own country of Canada similar to the way *Isreal* takes on their Enemies?



I like the new spelling of the name for the tiny, tough nation state. Pretty much reflects their reality when the roof knocker comes calling:    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roof_knocking ; https://youtu.be/n7VqGMMpMPI


----------



## opcougar

So kinda like Racism then i.e. the "objective is about power"????

As for the other poster that said...if someone from a certain group does something heinous, the group they belong to should come forward and separate themselves from it. When was the last time majorities spoke out about racist cops beating / kicking / punching a minority?



			
				Thucydides said:
			
		

> *Ultimately, the objective of terrorism is about power.* Power over the population, power to force changes to the policy of governments and even power to overthrow the State (often the stated aim of the terrorist groups, even if there are huge gaps in their abilities to do so).
> 
> Historically, terrorism has been conducted under all kinds of flags and in the name of virtually every religion, ideology and idea imaginable. Probably the main difference b between today and the past is people are far more empowered, so individuals have access to information and equipment that would be unimaginable to even '70's era groups like the Red Army Faction, the FLQ or the Badder-Meinhoff Gang. In relative terms, the State is weaker vis a vis terrorists (much like the decaying Russian Empire was wracked by terrorist groups in the 1800's), giving then that much more of an edge.
> 
> So blaming religion or other ideas is stopping short of where the real issue is: people who are looking for ways to achieve power outside of existing social, economic and political structures. The fact they can wrap themselves in various flags or cloak their actions with rhetorical devices is just a way to justify their actions to the larger audience and perhaps gain adherents to the cause. Discrediting the ideologies or "causes" is an important step, isolating the active members from possible resources and support, but in the end, it does not take too many people to put us at risk (one might contemplate that the British Army was engaged in a long running war with the PIRA from the "Troubles" in the 1960's until 2007, and it was estimated that the PIRA's active shooters only numbered about 250 altogether).


----------



## c_canuk

opcougar said:
			
		

> So kinda like Racism then i.e. the "objective is about power"????
> 
> As for the other poster that said...if someone from a certain group does something heinous, the group they belong to should come forward and separate themselves from it. *When was the last time majorities spoke out about racist cops beating / kicking / punching a minority?*



I'm not sure what you're asking, but the answer is, every time it happens.

if you are implying otherwise, I don't know what to tell you. 

In every accusation of police brutality people from all race creed and colour come together to most emphatically state, "THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE, THIS IS NOT WHAT WE STAND FOR"

If you are implying otherwise, I dont' know what to tell you. Come out of your cave and join reality once in a while maybe?


----------



## ArmyRick

opcougar, care to back up your statement? Examples? Specifics?


----------



## Jarnhamar

opcougar said:
			
		

> When was the last time majorities spoke out about racist cops beating / kicking / punching a minority?


 :


----------



## opcougar

Is that why the cops end up on leave with pay, only to get their job back after another police body concludes that it was just? If what you say is really true, then perhaps majority should join demonstrations like "Black lives matter", and ask for racist cops to be fired.



			
				c_canuk said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what you're asking, but the answer is, every time it happens.
> 
> if you are implying otherwise, I don't know what to tell you.
> 
> In every accusation of police brutality people from all race creed and colour come together to most emphatically state, "THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE, THIS IS NOT WHAT WE STAND FOR"
> 
> *If you are implying otherwise, I dont' know what to tell you. Come out of your cave and join reality once in a while maybe?*


----------



## opcougar

1. Kid that got shot on the transit bus in Toronto...what do you think the outcome is going to be? I don't see majority saying that is someone's kid and the cops should be fired





			
				ArmyRick said:
			
		

> opcougar, care to back up your statement? Examples? Specifics?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

opcougar said:
			
		

> 1. Kid that got shot on the transit bus in Toronto...what do you think the outcome is going to be? I don't see majority saying that is someone's kid and the cops should be fired



No what you see is people acting correctly and waiting for justice [whatever way it rolls] to be served by the courts.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

opcougar said:
			
		

> Is that why the cops end up on leave with pay, only to get their job back after another police body concludes that it was just? If what you say is really true, then perhaps majority should join demonstrations like "Black lives matter", and ask for racist cops to be fired.



This post suggests only white cops are racist.  That is racist against white cops.   Did you realize you are racist?


----------



## opcougar

Racism is driven by power with the majority. In the town you live in, how many minority cops / firefighters / EMS are there? Oh, lets not claim they aren't applying for these jobs. A minority in any of those jobs, will be driven out / segregated by the majority



			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> This post suggests only white cops are racist.  That is racist against white cops.   Did you realize you are racist?


----------



## OldSolduer

opcougar said:
			
		

> Racism is driven by power with the majority. In the town you live in, how many minority cops / firefighters / EMS are there? Oh, lets not claim they aren't applying for these jobs. A minority in any of those jobs, will be driven out / segregated by the majority



So, you are suggesting that all EMS personnel are racist? That's a huge broad brush stroke. 

Where's your evidence - proof- that's  the norm?


----------



## Jarnhamar

opcougar said:
			
		

> Racism is driven by power with the majority. In the town you live in, how many minority cops / firefighters / EMS are there? Oh, lets not claim they aren't applying for these jobs. *A minority in any of those jobs, will be driven out / segregated by the majority*



Bullshit.


----------



## opcougar

Lets just put it like this....people are afraid of the unknown, and will rather hire someone that looks like them, which is stupid really because that doesn't guarantee that the person that looks like you won't hurt you. I mean just look at the institution that is marriage. 1 in every 2 goes South



			
				Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> So, you are suggesting that all EMS personnel are racist? That's a huge broad brush stroke.
> 
> Where's your evidence - proof- that's  the norm?


----------



## Eye In The Sky

You are out to lunch and speaking for no one other than yourself.


----------



## opcougar

It takes one to know one


----------



## cavalryman

opcougar said:
			
		

> Lets just put it like this....people are afraid of the unknown, and will rather hire someone that looks like them, which is stupid really because that doesn't guarantee that the person that looks like you won't hurt you. I mean just look at the institution that is marriage. 1 in every 2 goes South


Our new MND is a Sikh yet other than a few isolated idiots, we all, CAF members serving and retired, recognize him as one of our own.


----------



## PuckChaser

opcougar said:
			
		

> It takes one to know one


One notch above a mother joke, class act.


----------



## OldSolduer

opcougar said:
			
		

> Lets just put it like this....people are afraid of the unknown, and will rather hire someone that looks like them, which is stupid really because that doesn't guarantee that the person that looks like you won't hurt you. I mean just look at the institution that is marriage. 1 in every 2 goes South



I prefer intelligence and competence over colour. 

Sorry if I've ruined your day.....


----------



## Jarnhamar

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> You are out to lunch and speaking for no one other than yourself.



He does seem to be stuck on the same channel doesn't he.


----------



## medicineman

Opcougar, you should pay attention to a few important phrases in this - the bits about the blah blah ologist and the captain of your brain ship in particular.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj4dC56V4bM

BTW, about half the coppers in my town are minorities, and about a third of the EMS here are as well.

MM


----------



## mariomike

opcougar said:
			
		

> In the town you live in, how many minority cops / firefighters / EMS are there? Oh, lets not claim they aren't applying for these jobs. A minority in any of those jobs, will be driven out / segregated by the majority





			
				Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> So, you are suggesting that all EMS personnel are racist?



That can't be possible, we took sensitivity training.    All kidding aside, I've never heard of a crew who refused to carry anyone out of a building because of their colour.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> He does seem to be stuck on the same channel doesn't he.



yah and it sounds a lot like that old emergency broadcast test signal channel.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>In the town you live in, how many minority cops / firefighters / EMS are there?

How old are you?  In Canada and the US, public and private employers across wide swaths of professions and occupations have been actively working to recruit various "minorities" under pressure from governments at all levels since at least the 1970s.  (My memory only goes back that far.)


----------



## Harris

opcougar said:
			
		

> I mean just look at the institution that is marriage. 1 in every 2 goes South



Actually it is closer to 2 in 5 as per Employment and Social Development Canada: http://well-being.esdc.gc.ca/misme-iowb/.3ndic.1t.4r@-eng.jsp?iid=76

See what I did there?  Disagreed with you and provided proof.  You should do the same sometime.


----------



## mariomike

medicineman said:
			
		

> BTW, about half the coppers in my town are minorities, and about a third of the EMS here are as well.





			
				Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >In the town you live in, how many minority cops / firefighters / EMS are there?
> 
> How old are you?  In Canada and the US, public and private employers across wide swaths of professions and occupations have been actively working to recruit various "minorities" under pressure from governments at all levels since at least the 1970s.  (My memory only goes back that far.)



There were no women, and only five visible minorities, on the job when I hired on. None were in Communications ie: Call Takers and Emergency Medical Dispatchers - EMDs ( because you first had to work in Operations back then ). 
It was, and still is, the largest municipal EMS operation in Canada. 

When approached in public by a citizen about Diversity ( or lack of ), I did not argue. But, I encouraged them to put in an application to the Paramedic college of their choice. 

Since then, the department has come a long way in achieving Diversity. From 2006:
"Twenty-five of the 46 paramedic recruits are women, as are nine of the thirteen new EMDs."
http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=af71df79b2df6410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD&nrkey=15552D6A7792CEC18525718E00734C7A

An explanation from the ( now President ) Secretary - Treasurer of the Toronto Professional Fire Fighters’ Association, I.A.F.F. Local 3888:

"It was at this event that I was approached by an Afro-Canadian male in his 40’s who complained that, by viewing the members we had in attendance at Union Station, it was clear to him that we do not reflect the community. The man was upset and was very articulate at getting his point across. I listened patiently to him and I acknowledged what he was saying. I was fortunate to be familiar with the TFS hiring process and was able to assure him that the suggestions he was making were already implemented within the Toronto Fire Service. I explained to him that, regardless of the fact that the TFS has thousands of applicants each year, we still have a Recruitment Division and their primary goal is to get candidates to apply that reflect the community. I also explained that women and visible minorities, once qualified, are placed in their own group and that each class hired would require 50% from that group and 50% from the white male group. I further explained, that usually after the first class, the visible minority group is exhausted. We discussed the changes toward hiring out of the community colleges and the fact that their representation of visible minorities currently is low and that if the TFS continues down that road then it will be a new challenge for our recruitment outreach program to see higher numbers apply to the colleges. I went over the courses the TFS offers and the assistance they provide to individuals trying to join the Fire Service.
The discussion then turned to how we treat out visible minorities. While I was careful to state that I did not want to speak on behalf of individuals and their experiences, I was more than willing to share my own experiences. I was open and honest and I think he sensed that I was being sincere. The conversation took about 20 minutes but his attitude from the start of it to the end had drastically changed for the better. He was very appreciative and told me he felt a lot more comfortable with how the TFS was working toward being reflective of the community it serves."
https://www.torontofirefighters.org/wp-content/uploads/firewatch/Spring2009.pdf
Page 8.


----------



## Journeyman

Harris said:
			
		

> See what I did there?  Disagreed with you and provided proof.


That should be a site mantra!  :nod:


----------



## opcougar

I see what you did there...you provided obsolete data from 2008. Redeem yourself and provide something from at least 2yrs back



			
				Harris said:
			
		

> Actually it is closer to 2 in 5 as per Employment and Social Development Canada: http://well-being.esdc.gc.ca/misme-iowb/.3ndic.1t.4r@-eng.jsp?iid=76
> 
> See what I did there?  Disagreed with you and provided proof.  You should do the same sometime.


----------



## Kat Stevens

opcougar said:
			
		

> Racism is driven by power with the majority. In the town you live in, how many minority cops / firefighters / EMS are there? Oh, lets not claim they aren't applying for these jobs. A minority in any of those jobs, will be driven out / segregated by the majority



That's ridiculous. Some of the worst bigots I know live on reservations, arguably the people with the least power in Canada.  Oh, right, forgot, only white males can be racist or sexist, everyone else just has pride.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Balanced "representation" is difficult to obtain.  Actively working to achieve it does not guarantee success.  Only conscription can guarantee success.


----------



## daftandbarmy

FWIW:

The Social Psychology of Radicalization and Extremism

Western Governments are increasingly concerned about the radicalization of young Muslims, and so they should be.  The UN has estimated that the number of foreign jihadists who have joined IS may be over 15,000. According to a British MP this may include as many as 2,000 Britons currently fighting in Syria and Iraq. On a recent visit to Jordan, Prince Charles called the UK radicalization figures “alarming” and one of the “greatest worries.” Similar words have been used by Governments in the US, France, Germany, the Netherlands and Belgium. What is radicalization and how can it be prevented? Here are some useful insights from social psychology.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/naturally-selected/201502/the-social-psychology-radicalization-and-extremism?collection=1082225


----------



## Edward Campbell

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> FWIW:
> 
> The Social Psychology of Radicalization and Extremism
> 
> Western Governments are increasingly concerned about the radicalization of young Muslims, and so they should be.  The UN has estimated that the number of foreign jihadists who have joined IS may be over 15,000. According to a British MP this may include as many as 2,000 Britons currently fighting in Syria and Iraq. On a recent visit to Jordan, Prince Charles called the UK radicalization figures “alarming” and one of the “greatest worries.” Similar words have been used by Governments in the US, France, Germany, the Netherlands and Belgium. What is radicalization and how can it be prevented? Here are some useful insights from social psychology.
> 
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/naturally-selected/201502/the-social-psychology-radicalization-and-extremism?collection=1082225



I wonder ...

Perhaps this, the 2,000 Britons, for example, just represents the fairly, historically, _normal_ rate of the truly _engaged_: engaged with a cause in which they really, sincerely believe.

Almost two hundred years ago Lord Byron and other young Englishmen went to fight to liberate Greece from the Ottoman Turks ~ it was part of many young men's response to the (ongoing) European _enlightenment_. Maybe young people and causes, especially romantic, quixotic causes are _natural_ fits.

According to the 2011 census there are 2.7 Million Muslims in the UK, maybe 2,000 going off to do odd things is not too much about which to worry.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Until they return, especially if they want to showcase their newly found skill sets.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/stabbing-arrest-1.3491413

This could get bad


----------



## Michael OLeary

To all; this is a developing news story, let's keep the speculation to a minimum.


----------



## jollyjacktar

BZ to the guys for stopping the perp in his tracks.  Speedy recovery to the wounded.


----------



## The Bread Guy

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> BZ to the guys for stopping the perp in his tracks.  Speedy recovery to the wounded.


Same here


----------



## PuckChaser

Speedy recovery to the injured, and BZ to the staff who prevented further injuries.

In case anyone didn't watch the video, Toronto Police Chief said details will be released in the morning WRT the suspect's name, and possible motivations. OPP, RCMP, CSIS are all assisting the investigation.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Another news report here:

http://www.cp24.com/police-investigating-motive-behind-unprovoked-attack-against-members-of-canadian-forces-1.2816854


----------



## rmc_wannabe

This was the most satisfying part of the article:



> The suspect is currently being held in custody in hospital



A speedy recovery to those hurt in the attack, and well done to those who stopped the attacker, repeatedly, and with force.


----------



## medicineman

Can just shake my head...good work to those that took the perp out and well wishes to the wounded.

MM


----------



## Halifax Tar

Speedy recovery to those injured and BZ to those who subdued this "gentleman"


----------



## jollyjacktar

The radio was reporting on the way in this morning, from a "source that was in a position to know" claims the Perp mentioned "Allah" during his encounter with the staff at the centre.


----------



## observor 69

Man arrested after 2 Canadian Forces members stabbed at Toronto recruitment centre

Police Chief Mark Saunders praises group of soldiers who took down suspect.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/stabbing-arrest-1.3491413


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Happy to add my kudos to the staff of the recruiting centre here.

I suppose it's a good thing that radicalization, if that is what is at issue, does not improve IQ. Walking  with a knife and intent to use it into a place that contains a large number of combat arms soldiers around the rank of sergeant is not exactly a recipe for success.

Again, well done to all, and speedy recovery to the injured.


----------



## Inspir

Just a question out of curiosity. Who is conducting the investigation? MP, RCMP or TPS?


----------



## rmc_wannabe

From what I read in the article, TPS has the lead, but other organizations (RCMP, CSIS, OPP, MPs) have been contacted as per protocol for suspected acts of terrorism.


----------



## Jarnhamar

This exemplifies why all soldiers sailors and airmen need to be fighters and have that _ambush right, charge! _ mindset.


----------



## George Wallace

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> The radio was reporting on the way in this morning, from a "source that was in a position to know" claims the Perp mentioned "Allah" during his encounter with the staff at the centre.



Yet the Federal Government's only comment is that this is an "incident".  It seems that they are afraid to mentiont the "T" word for fear of panicking the Sheeple.

Other agencies are not:



> National Post
> 
> Double stabbing at Toronto military site prompts probe into possible terror link
> Tristin Hopper | March 14, 2016 10:12 PM ET
> 
> Toronto police are weighing a possible link to terrorism after a knife-wielding attacker injured two Canadian Forces members at an uptown recruitment centre.
> 
> “There were some comments made by the suspect at the time, and without getting into it, I want to be very careful, very cautious with what I do say,” Toronto Police Chief Mark Saunders told a CP24 TV interviewer about the attack that has drawn in CSIS and RCMP investigators.
> 
> ....snipped.


----------



## jollyjacktar

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Yet the Federal Government's only comment is that this is an "incident".  It seems that they are afraid to mentiont the "T" word for fear of panicking the Sheeple.
> 
> Other agencies are not:



That's because Mr. Sunshine say's a "Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian"  not a "T" ( I guess they don't exist anymore). :


----------



## Rifleman62

George Wallace: 





> Yet the Federal Government's only comment is that this is an "incident".  It seems that they are afraid to mention the "T" word for fear of panicking the Sheeple.



Taking the pith of his mentor to the south who won't say the word or phrase Islamic terrorists.


----------



## mariomike

'Allah told me to do this,' says accused in Canadian Forces double stabbing
http://www.680news.com/2016/03/15/allah-told-says-accused-canadian-forces-double-stabbing/

The man accused in a double stabbing at a Canadian Forces recruitment centre invoked Allah during the attack, Toronto police said Tuesday.

The 27-year-old suspect, who has been identified as Ayanie Hassan Ali, remains in custody. Ali is facing several criminal charges including attempt murder and assault with a weapon. He is scheduled to appear in court later on Tuesday.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Well I guess he'll get off the charges because he's crazy.


----------



## Bucky

A few points, here:

[list type=decimal]
[*]This guy is just your average crazy dude. Just because he used the word "allah" doesn't make this an ISIS plot. This most certainly isn't 9/11 x 1000, though i'm sure your racist uncle would love to make it out to be.
[*]Since when are we happy about beating people up? Last I checked, we used force to detain people, not to get revenge on them for hurting (barely) our buddies. Grow up and start thinking like professionals, folks. 
[/list]

Yeesh. CF members are all fine, bad guy will be dealt with by mental health professionals and the justice system, and the recruiting centres remain the front lines on the war on crazy. The REALLY crazy folks who get into the recruiting centres end up in the infantry, anyways  ;D


----------



## Jed

How quickly we  Canadians seem to adopt the politically correct double speak we have seen in the USA for the past decade. Comparing our response to the tragic attacks on the CAF for a little better than a year ago to now, is revealing. 

My best wishes for our injured CAF members.


----------



## Altair

Jed said:
			
		

> How quickly we  Canadians seem to adopt the politically correct double speak we have seen in the USA for the past decade. Comparing our response to the tragic attacks on the CAF for a little better than a year ago to now, is revealing.
> 
> My best wishes for our injured CAF members.


I think it's fair to say the circumstances are very very different than what happened a year ago.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Bucky said:
			
		

> A few points, here:
> 
> [list type=decimal]
> [*]This guy is just your average crazy dude. Just because he used the word "allah" doesn't make this an ISIS plot. This most certainly isn't 9/11 x 1000, though i'm sure your racist uncle would love to make it out to be.
> [*]Since when are we happy about beating people up? Last I checked, we used force to detain people, not to get revenge on them for hurting (barely) our buddies. Grow up and start thinking like professionals, folks.
> [/list]
> 
> Yeesh. CF members are all fine, bad guy will be dealt with by mental health professionals and the justice system, and the recruiting centres remain the front lines on the war on crazy. The REALLY crazy folks who get into the recruiting centres end up in the infantry, anyways  ;D



How do you know he's crazy and not a terrorist?  Do you have some kind of insight the rest of us are unaware of?
We kill people with extreme prejuduice and are happy it's us that survived and not them so I'm not sure how being excitied about some guys laying the boots to a would be murderer is unprofessional.


----------



## George Wallace

Bucky said:
			
		

> A few points, here:
> 
> [list type=decimal]
> [*]This guy is just your average crazy dude. Just because he used the word "allah" doesn't make this an ISIS plot. This most certainly isn't 9/11 x 1000, though i'm sure your racist uncle would love to make it out to be.[/list]



I am sure that they will investigate every minute detail of his life leading up to this event to determine his relationships.  A professional mental health assessment will also be made as to his faculties.  

So, before you just brush it off as "your average crazy dude", let's wait and see what the investigators and Doctors determine.  

Question:  How does "racist" in anyway fit into this question?

As for your Point 2, I am wondering where you are going with that?  Sheep are defenceless.  Sheepdogs are capable of defending themselves and others, and that may require force.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Altair said:
			
		

> I think it's fair to say the circumstances are very very different than what happened a year ago.



Compare and contrast the differneces please.


----------



## GR66

Altair said:
			
		

> I think it's fair to say the circumstances are very very different than what happened a year ago.



Firstly I'd say it's a bit too early to say we know what the circumstances are.  All we've seen and heard are a few very vague reports from the media citing "sources".

Secondly I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this as being very different from the motivation behind previous "lone wolf" attacks just because the weapon this particular individual had available was not as effective in this case as a vehicle or a rifle.  A knife may not be as "dramatic" as another weapon but a stabbing murder victim is just as dead as someone killed with another weapon.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Bucky said:
			
		

> This guy is just your average crazy dude. Just because he used the word "allah" doesn't make this an ISIS plot.


Not that I'm doubting your precognitive abilities but who say's he's crazy?  Allah tells a lot of people to do all kinds of nasty shit- and they do it.



> This most certainly isn't 9/11 x 1000, though i'm sure your racist uncle would love to make it out to be.


Muslim and Islam are races, right?



> Since when are we happy about beating people up?


Honest question, are you a hockey fan?



> CF members are all fine





> Last I checked, we used force to detain people, not to get revenge on them for *hurting (barely)* our buddies. Grow up and start thinking like professionals, folks.


Pretty awesome that you're so quick to down play the stabbing injuries that your brothers in arms received.  How bad were the injuries you suffered the last time you were stabbed?

I think it's great they put the guy in the hospital.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Bucky said:
			
		

> A few points, here:
> 
> [list type=decimal]
> [*]This guy is just your average crazy dude. Just because he used the word "allah" doesn't make this an ISIS plot. This most certainly isn't 9/11 x 1000, though i'm sure your racist uncle would love to make it out to be.[/list]



So, you know more than the TPS, RCMP and CSIS.  Did you call them to inform them so they don't waste time and money on an investigation that isn't needed??



> Since when are we happy about beating people up? Last I checked, we used force to detain people, not to get revenge on them for hurting (barely) our buddies. Grow up and start thinking like professionals, folks.



First, who said he got beat up?  Proof?  Conjecture?  Jumping to conclusions?

Act like a professional?  You come into my place of work, stab 1 or 2 people and I'll do what I can to take you down, as hard and as fast as I can.  

Last point,  I wouldn't go jumping to the conclusion that what happened went beyond 'reasonable force', unless you were there.  In that case, you'd be a witness and shouldn't be talking.  I'll just assume you are just talking out of your arse with no idea of what went on any more than the rest of us who weren't there.   

BZ to the CAF mbr's who took this POS down and prevented further injury to others, military AND civilian; fuck what the thin-skinned Jimmy above said.  That's my  :2c:

Hopes for a speedy recovery to the 2 CAF members who were wounded in this attack.


----------



## goldwing

Thanks to those who subdued this freak. Well wishes to those who were hurt. Can we take the Air Force Major and the Army soldier that were at the press conference and teach them how to form and wear a beret. Looks like crap!


----------



## Journeyman

Altair said:
			
		

> I think it's fair to say the circumstances are very very different than what happened a year ago.


In what way?

Single, stray-mutt attacker (that the media insist on calling a "lone wolf," which people then repeat unthinkingly); attacking very limited number of CAF members, not in a position to defend themselves in any manner beyond that available to non-military pers; cites "Allah" as justification for attack; [too soon to tell, but we'll see if this guy is a 'recent convert'; ie - two weeks before attacking Cpl Cirillo, Zehaf-Bibeau was a druggie & petty criminal -- suddenly he's a 'jihadist martyr'  : ].

Seems pretty similar... well, except for the government response.


....oh, and one attacker used a knife, one used a rifle, one used a car.


----------



## Altair

GR66 said:
			
		

> Firstly I'd say it's a bit too early to say we know what the circumstances are.  All we've seen and heard are a few very vague reports from the media citing "sources".
> 
> Secondly I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this as being very different from the motivation behind previous "lone wolf" attacks just because the weapon this particular individual had available was not as effective in this case as a vehicle or a rifle.  A knife may not be as "dramatic" as another weapon but a stabbing murder victim is just as dead as someone killed with another weapon.


My point is, the last attacks, two soldiers were dead and parliament turned into a battlefield. 

I wouldn't put this at quite that level, as serious as it is. 

Let's just see if he's a crazy or a isil inspired terror wannabe or both.

Kinda weird to get all raging mad about a mental patient. Not saying that he is, but let's make sure he's not.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Altair said:
			
		

> My point is, the last attacks, two soldiers were dead and parliament turned into a battlefield.



So it's very very different circumstances because these soldiers were simply able to defend themselves and didn't die (not for lack of effort)?  You're back pedaling.


----------



## Jed

Altair said:
			
		

> My point is, the last attacks, two soldiers were dead and parliament turned into a battlefield.
> 
> I wouldn't put this at quite that level, as serious as it is.
> 
> Let's just see if he's a crazy or a isil inspired terror wannabe or both.
> 
> Kinda weird to get all raging mad about a mental patient. Not saying that he is, but let's make sure he's not.



Sigh...   I guess, Altair you sure wouldn't want be be accused of erring on the side of your fellow CAF members at the expense of some poor down trodden miscreant.


----------



## Altair

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> So it's very very different circumstances because these soldiers were simply able to defend themselves and didn't die (not for lack of effort)?  You're back pedaling.


nailed it on the head mate.

When soldiers are dead, people are angry, worried, ect, one does not have the luxury to wait around and say that they are waiting for all the facts to come in.

When people are wounded, with non life threatening injuries, it buys one a little time.

Again, if it's just a god freak wacko who is bi polar is it really the time to go on about fighting terrorists? Probably not?

So let's wait and see if it is a god freak wacko who is bi polar. If not, go on about fighting terrorists


----------



## Altair

Jed said:
			
		

> Sigh...   I guess, Altair you sure wouldn't want be be accused of erring on the side of your fellow CAF members at the expense of some poor down trodden miscreant.


If it's a mental patient,  no good comes from bashing them. It's just sad.

If not, throw the book at him, and in the case of the soldiers at the RC, a lot more.  

Sorry if I don't go for the knee jerk reaction with little to no facts coming in at this time.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Altair said:
			
		

> Kinda weird to get all raging mad about a mental patient.



Who said he is a mental patient?  No one.  Well, actually you did in this quote.  No one else is.





> Not saying that he is, but let's make sure he's not.



You actual did say he is a mental patient.  In the quote.  Just above here.  Read it again.  Start a rumour, repeat it until someone states it as fact.

I noticed you couldn't take a moment to say "I'm glad no CAF members were more seriously wounded or killed" or "hopes for a full and speedy recovery", something along that line.

Aren't you a CAF member?


----------



## Altair

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Who said he is a mental patient?  No one.  Well, actually you did in this quote.  No one else is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You actual did say he is a mental patient.  In the quote.  Just above here.  Read it again.  Start a rumour, repeat it until someone states it as fact.
> 
> I noticed you couldn't take a moment to say "I'm glad no CAF members were more seriously wounded or killed" or "hopes for a full and speedy recovery", something along that line.
> 
> Aren't you a CAF member?


should I have phrased that differently? OK,  how about if he is a mental patient, which he may or may not be, it would be weird for the goverment to go on about terrorists when they could be dealing with someone with mental illness?

Sorry. Didn't pass my online sensitivity training class at basic.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Altair said:
			
		

> If it's a mental patient,  no good comes from bashing them. It's just sad.
> 
> If not, throw the book at him, and in the case of the soldiers at the RC, a lot more.
> 
> Sorry if I don't go for the knee jerk reaction with little to no facts coming in at this time.



Throw the book at the troops from the Recruiting Center?  For defending themselves from a knife-welding attacker who had already tried to kill someone?

This is a serious question; have you ever had anyone try to stab you with a knife, I mean really really no-bullshit try to drive a knife into your body?

I have.  You don't think, you react.  You do what you have to do to stop the mo-fo from driving that blade into whatever part they are going for.  In my case, it was my neck/head/throat.  

You so casually dismiss any and all things, with a toss of your hand and quick judgement.  You always have the "DS solution".  

Consider what your reaction and thoughts would be if this happened to someone you cared about, maybe that will help envision what it is like to be in a life and death situation.  The perfect ending is the one you aren't leaking your juices all over the place when all is said and done.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Altair said:
			
		

> If not, throw the book at him, *and in the case of the soldiers at the RC, a lot more.  *



Could you explain that?


----------



## Altair

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Throw the book at the troops from the Recruiting Center?  For defending themselves from a knife-welding attacker who had already tried to kill someone?


The attacker.


----------



## Altair

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Could you explain that?


Throw a lot more at the attacker than a book.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Altair said:
			
		

> Sorry. Didn't pass my online sensitivity training class at basic.



Fake bravado in the place of concern for 2 people who got hurt by someone coming at them with a knife;  classy.

Dude, take a few minutes to think about what message you are portraying.  You aren't impressing anyone with talk like that.   

 :2c:

At the very least, consider stopping the rhetoric you are spreading in this thread from this thread.  It is in poor taste in my opinion.


----------



## Jed

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Throw the book at the troops from the Recruiting Center?  For defending themselves from a knife-welding attacker who had already tried to kill someone?
> 
> This is a serious question; have you ever had anyone try to stab you with a knife, I mean really really no-bullshit try to drive a knife into your body?
> 
> I have.  You don't think, you react.  You do what you have to do to stop the mo-fo from driving that blade into whatever part they are going for.  In my case, it was my neck/head/throat.
> 
> You so casually dismiss any and all things, with a toss of your hand and quick judgement.  You always have the "DS solution".
> 
> Consider what your reaction and thoughts would be if this happened to someone you cared about, maybe that will help envision what it is like to be in a life and death situation.  The perfect ending is the one you aren't leaking your juices all over the place when all is said and done.



A good question to bring reality into these situations. It is not like you see in some TV show. People do matter. Especially people who are on your side like family or CAF members.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Altair said:
			
		

> Throw a lot more at the attacker than a book.


Ah I had the wrong context sorry. Yes I agree.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Throw the book at the troops from the Recruiting Center?  For defending themselves from a knife-welding attacker who had already tried to kill someone?
> 
> This is a serious question; have you ever had anyone try to stab you with a knife, I mean really really no-bullshit try to drive a knife into your body?
> 
> I have.  You don't think, you react.  You do what you have to do to stop the mo-fo from driving that blade into whatever part they are going for.  In my case, it was my neck/head/throat.
> 
> You so casually dismiss any and all things, with a toss of your hand and quick judgement.  You always have the "DS solution".
> 
> Consider what your reaction and thoughts would be if this happened to someone you cared about, maybe that will help envision what it is like to be in a life and death situation.  The perfect ending is the one you aren't leaking your juices all over the place when all is said and done.



 :goodpost:  Milpoints inbound.


----------



## Altair

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Fake bravado in the place of concern for 2 people who got hurt by someone coming at them with a knife;  classy.
> 
> Dude, take a few minutes to think about what message you are portraying.  You aren't impressing anyone with talk like that.
> 
> :2c:
> 
> At the very least, consider stopping the rhetoric you are spreading in this thread from this thread.  It is in poor taste in my opinion.


to each their own.


----------



## Altair

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> :goodpost:  Milpoints inbound.


a great post. Loved it actually.

If only he had gotten the proper context of what I was saying.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

The context of your post (re: throw more than the book at the RC types) I did mistake, but it wouldn't have changed much of my post.  I still find it alittle disconcerting that you see it as 'they were only stabbed' and never honestly thought to so much as wish them a full recovery.

So, mistaken context aside (I was glad to read you didn't mean the law should come after them), the rest of my thoughts remain the same.  Sometimes the little things we do are what make us big.  In the case of wounded CAF members, even without knowing them personally, taking a second to give them best wishes can be a little big thing.  It reminds us of the greater family we are all welcomed into and a part of, whether we embrace or reject it.


----------



## Loachman

Altair said:
			
		

> If only he had gotten the proper context of what I was saying.



If only you had expressed yourself clearly. I, too, took it the same way as others have.


----------



## The Bread Guy

First off, re:  any suggestion that they were "only stabbed", I echo the WTF's already shared.


			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> Yet the Federal Government's only comment is that this is an "incident".  It seems that they are afraid to mentiont the "T" word for fear of panicking the Sheeple.


Maybe, or maybe this?


			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> I am sure that they will investigate every minute detail of his life leading up to this event to determine his relationships.  A professional mental health assessment will also be made as to his faculties.
> 
> So, before you just brush it off as "your average crazy dude", let's wait and see what the investigators and Doctors determine.


For the record, here's the latest from the info-machine @ this point (also attached in case the link doesn't work for you):


> The Honourable Ralph Goodale, Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, made the following statement:
> 
> “I am aware of the incident at the Canadian Forces Recruitment Centre in Toronto. While it is premature to comment as an investigation is on-going, the information the RCMP has at this point suggests this is an isolated incident and that there is no imminent threat to public safety. Canadians can be assured that their police and security agencies are fully engaged and are discharging their responsibilities. My thoughts are with the victims and their families.”


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Since when is attempted murder an incident?


----------



## The Bread Guy

And we have another government comment, via Twitter, less than an hour old as of this post:


> Canadians - and the @CanadianForces - will not be intimidated by terror & hate. May the CAF members injured yesterday make a full recovery.


Post edited to add the French version ...


> Ni les Canadiens, ni @ForcesCanada ne seront intimidés par la terreur et la haine. Bon rétablissement aux membres des FAC blessés hier.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Altair said:
			
		

> Depends on the motivation.
> 
> Whether he hates western society or has  voices in his head telling him to do things.
> 
> I trust that every aspect of his life is being looked through and security services will know soon enough.



Ok, I'll lessen it to assualt and attempted assualt with a deadly weapon.  Whether it was in regards to a relgious vendetta, drug money, or insanity; I don't think motive matters.  To me an incident is Jay walking.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> And we have another government comment, via Twitter, less than an hour old as of this post:



As much as it pains me to do so, I will admit that I am somewhat surprised by this.


----------



## The Bread Guy

And this from the Toronto Police Service (also attached in case link doesn't work):


> *Man faces five charges following incident at Joseph Shephard Building, 4900 Yonge Street*
> 
> Broadcast time: 10:51
> Tuesday, March 15, 2016
> 
> 32 Division
> 416-808-3200
> 
> Case #: 443332
> 
> On Monday, March 14, 2016, at 2:45 p.m., police were called to 4900 Yonge Street for a man with a large knife who was threatening people.
> 
> It is alleged that:
> 
> - a man entered the Canadian Forces Recruiting Centre and stabbed a soldier
> - the man was restrained by several soldiers
> - during the struggle, a second soldier received a stab wound
> 
> Ayanie Hassan Ali, 27, of Toronto, was arrested and charged with:
> 
> 1) two counts of Assault with a weapon
> 2) Attempt Murder
> 3) Weapons Dangerous
> 4) Aggravated Assault
> 
> He is scheduled to appear in court at 1000 Finch Avenue West on Tuesday, March 15, 2016, 2 p.m., room 306.
> 
> Anyone with information is asked to contact police at 416-808-3200, Crime Stoppers anonymously at 416-222-TIPS (8477), online at www.222tips.com, text TOR and your message to CRIMES (274637) ...


----------



## George Wallace

Bucky said:
			
		

> Sane people don't attack a large group of military personnel with a knife. Hardly the brilliant plot of some terrorist mastermind.



Ummmm?  One guy at a front desk (I am thinking from the reports) does not constitute a "large group of military personnel", even if you take into fact that there are cubicle dwellers somewhere nearby.



			
				Bucky said:
			
		

> In  my experience, your racist uncle is also fiercely islamophobic.



I am still confused as to why you are bringing "race" into this discussion?   I am getting the impression that you are one of Kathleen Wynne's Liberals who use "racist" to describe anyone who disagrees with their views.  Religion and Race are not one and the same.


----------



## RocketRichard

Well, this is a lively thread. I've visited a CFRC recently and one would be very 'unwise' to take on the Sr. NCO's at the front desk...
Quick recovery to the injured troops.


----------



## George Wallace

An update from CP24 in Toronto:

http://www.cp24.com/news/police-suspect-in-military-recruitment-office-stabbing-said-allah-told-me-to-do-this-1.2817553

Video and photos on link.

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.


> Police: suspect in military recruitment office stabbing said 'Allah told me to do this'
> Chris Fox, CP24.com
> Published Tuesday, March 15, 2016 5:30AM EDT
> Last Updated Tuesday, March 15, 2016 1:01PM EDT
> 
> A 27-year-old man who allegedly slashed two uniformed Canadian Forces members at a recruitment office in North York on Monday claimed that “Allah told me to come here and kill people,” police say.
> 
> The suspect, who was born in Montreal and moved to Toronto five years ago, walked into the office on Yonge Street near Greenfield Avenue at around 3 p.m.
> 
> Once inside, police say the suspect walked past a master corporal who was stationed at the door of the office and then slashed him on his right arm with a “large knife” when he tried to stop the suspect.
> 
> The suspect then allegedly continued into the office and attempted to slash a female uniformed Canadian Forces member, who escaped injury.
> 
> Military personnel were then able to corral civilian applicants in a safe location and subdue the suspect until police arrived.
> A second uniformed member did suffer non-life-threatening knife injuries while subduing the suspect.
> 
> At this point a motive for the attack has not yet been determined but Police Chief Mark Saunders says he can’t rule out terrorism.
> Provincial police, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and the Canadian Security Intelligence Service have all been notified
> “We are certainly looking into it and that is why we are working in concert with other agencies to determine exactly what is going on,” Saunders told reporters at police headquarters on Tuesday morning. “There has to be a lot of analysis done so we can have a full and proper picture on what exactly motivated this act.”
> 
> Saunders said the suspect uttered the words “Allah told me to do this. Allah told me to come here and kill people” at the scene, however it is not clear whether he did so during or after the attack.
> 
> Right now, Saunders said police are trying to find out more about the suspect, including whether he may have travelled to any foreign countries where he could have been radicalized.
> 
> The suspect has, however, been “unresponsive” to questioning so far, according to Saunders.
> The suspect does not have a prior criminal record.
> 
> “Certain comments were made that would fit a profile but there needs to be more to support (that the stabbing was an act of terrorism). You can’t just do that based on one statement,” Saunders said. “Today there is nothing to indicate that the accused was working with anyone or acting in concert with any organization.”
> 
> As police continue to search for a possible motive for the stabbing, Saunders said officers are eager to speak with anyone who saw the suspect yesterday or are otherwise aware of his activities.
> 
> Meanwhile, Saunders said he is asking his officers “be more vigilant” in the wake of the attack.
> 
> “We have exercised our due diligence by making sure our officers are aware and are being more vigilant in certain areas of the city and making sure that if they see suspicious activity they investigate it,” he said.
> 
> *Victims released from hospital*
> 
> The two Canadian forces members who were injured in Monday’s attack have both been released from hospital and are now recuperating at home.
> 
> Speaking with reporters on Tuesday morning, the commanding office of the recruitment centre said that it is largely “business as usual” today.
> 
> “They (members) are prepared to do their duties. Obviously it is not something we see on a daily basis but they are professional,” Major Richard Silva said.
> 
> Silva was asked whether the military was on any elevated alert leading up to Monday’s attack, however he refused to comment. He did, however, say that officials at the North York office “had not observed any unusual activities” in the days and weeks before the stabbing.
> 
> Ayanie Hassan Ali, 27, is charged with attempted murder, two counts of assault with a weapon, weapons dangerous and aggravated assault.
> 
> Ali is expected to appear in court at Finch Avenue West this afternoon.


----------



## PuckChaser

Bucky said:
			
		

> Sane people don't attack a large group of military personnel with a knife. Hardly the brilliant plot of some terrorist mastermind.



Sane people also don't burn people alive in cages, keep children as sex slaves, and behead non-believers, but we're cool with calling ISIL terrorists, right?

I'll also quote for you the relevant Criminal Code of Canada definition of "terrorist activity" 83.01 (1) -



> (b) an act or omission, in or outside Canada,
> 
> (i) that is committed
> 
> (A) in whole or in part for a political, religious or ideological purpose, objective or cause, and
> 
> (B) in whole or in part with the intention of intimidating the public, or a segment of the public, with regard to its security, including its economic security, or compelling a person, a government or a domestic or an international organization to do or to refrain from doing any act, whether the public or the person, government or organization is inside or outside Canada, and
> 
> (ii) that intentionally
> 
> (A) causes death or serious bodily harm to a person by the use of violence,
> 
> (B) endangers a person’s life,
> 
> (C) causes a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or any segment of the public,
> 
> (D) causes substantial property damage, whether to public or private property, if causing such damage is likely to result in the conduct or harm referred to in any of clauses (A) to (C), or
> 
> (E) causes serious interference with or serious disruption of an essential service, facility or system, whether public or private, other than as a result of advocacy, protest, dissent or stoppage of work that is not intended to result in the conduct or harm referred to in any of clauses (A) to (C),
> 
> and includes a conspiracy, attempt or threat to commit any such act or omission, or being an accessory after the fact or counselling in relation to any such act or omission, but, for greater certainty, does not include an act or omission that is committed during an armed conflict and that, at the time and in the place of its commission, is in accordance with customary international law or conventional international law applicable to the conflict, or the activities undertaken by military forces of a state in the exercise of their official duties, to the extent that those activities are governed by other rules of international law. (activité terroriste)



The CCC is pretty clear. You can sign up to be his defense attorney and proclaim him not psychologically fit to stand trial. The facts are, he linked himself to a religious ideology that attempted to cause death or serious bodily harm (just because he's terrible at knife fighting doesn't change that), so what he did can be defined as a terrorist attack.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Ayanie Hassan Ali


----------



## Altair

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Sane people also don't burn people alive in cages, keep children as sex slaves, and behead non-believers, but we're cool with calling ISIL terrorists, right?
> 
> I'll also quote for you the relevant Criminal Code of Canada definition of "terrorist activity" 83.01 (1) -
> 
> The CCC is pretty clear. You can sign up to be his defense attorney and proclaim him not psychologically fit to stand trial. The facts are, he linked himself to a religious ideology that attempted to cause death or serious bodily harm (just because he's terrible at knife fighting doesn't change that), so what he did can be defined as a terrorist attack.


lets wait for the facts to come out.

I have no problem calling him a terrorist if there isn't any evidence that he's mentally ill or bi polar, low functioning, ect.

But we cannot say with 100 confidence that he isn't and all we are doing is speculating.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> Ok, I'll lessen it to assualt and attempted assualt with a deadly weapon.  Whether it was in regards to a relgious vendetta, drug money, or insanity; I don't think motive matters.  To me an incident is Jay walking.



Bugger that, leave that to the appeasers and apologists (of which there are plenty coming out of the woodwork already) 

As posted by milnews:

Ayanie Hassan Ali, 27, is charged with attempted murder, two counts of assault with a weapon, weapons dangerous and aggravated assault.

Ali is expected to appear in court at Finch Avenue West this afternoon.


----------



## George Wallace

Altair said:
			
		

> lets wait for the facts to come out.
> 
> I have no problem calling him a terrorist if there isn't any evidence that he's mentally ill or bi polar, low functioning, ect.
> 
> But we cannot say with 100 confidence that he isn't and all we are doing is speculating.



You and I have some rather different views of what a "terrorist" is.  For the most part, I am of the opinion that a vast majority of terrorists are suffering one form or another of Mental Illness.  That does not excuse them for what they are.


----------



## PuckChaser

Altair said:
			
		

> lets wait for the facts to come out.
> 
> I have no problem calling him a terrorist if there isn't any evidence that he's mentally ill or bi polar, low functioning, ect.
> 
> But we cannot say with 100 confidence that he isn't and all we are doing is speculating.



Speculating is speculating, whether you think he's a terrorist or you think he's mentally ill. 

Even Trudeau has made the link to a terror/hate motiviation: https://twitter.com/JustinTrudeau/status/709772306801778688


----------



## DAA

op:

Ever work "front desk" at a Recruiting Detachment?  You get to meet some pretty interesting people but you always hope, they aren't as interesting as this guy.

The world will never know his "true" motivation for doing this and or why he chose that location to do it.  He just did......

Personally, I couldn't care less, I'd still be standing proud at the "front desk" ready to serve the next customer.  That's just what "we" do......


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Altair said:
			
		

> I thought you had me on ignore. I guess not.  It's a simple solution to a simple problem.



I do, but as a Mod, it's incumbent on me to check everyone. You get checked when I see tons of posts from you and a whole bunch of others disagreeing. Besides, most have learned to quote you (for posterity) in their posts, so I still get to read them anyway. ;D

Hope that solves your misunderstanding 

---Staff---


----------



## Scott

Altair said:
			
		

> I thought you had me on ignore. I guess not.  It's a simple solution to a simple problem.



No. You are not getting it here.

I have been doing a lot of defending of your posts, and some others in the same vein. I have also called out other folks for how they reply to you, and have suggested the same thing - put you on ignore. I am fine doing this most of the time.

Not today.

I don't have a hard time making a leap from A to B when we have military members, in uniform, attacked where they work. Sorry. That doesn't make me a Stephen Harper smooching, knuckle dragging neanderthal - it makes me fucking logical. Especially given that we are doing this speculating on a military themed forum.

Enough chewing up of bandwidth trying to drill down as far as we can go with diagnoses of mental illness or quoting the CCC to see if this guy is a shithead terrorist. I don't give a fuck and it's rather useless caring.

Not all people who attack military members and use Allah's name in the commission of their crime(s) are terrorist. The group grants this.

Not all people who attack military members and use Allah's name in the commission of their crime(s) are mentally ill. The group gets this.

Debating either any further is more time wasting.

Thoughts with the injured members, their families, friends and colleagues.

Scott
Staff


----------



## Nudibranch

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Sane people also don't burn people alive in cages, keep children as sex slaves, and behead non-believers, but we're cool with calling ISIL terrorists, right?



Sane people ostensibly also wouldn't pack women and children into gas chambers, but to my knowledge no one's been weeping about mass insanity among the Nazis. Thus I'm perfectly fine calling these people terrorists, war criminals, and whatever is applicable to whichever group we're talking about. 

That aside though, people with an already shaky grip on reality can fall prey to messianic messaging, and ISIL is good at those. To me there is a difference between a sane individual hooked into ISIL networks and carrying out their orders (either specific or just of the "attack nonbelievers" variety) and some wacko deciding that Allah is speaking to him from the internets. Looks like it remains TBD which one this guy falls into.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Altair said:
			
		

> lets wait for the facts to come out.
> 
> I have no problem calling him a terrorist if there isn't any evidence that he's mentally ill or bi polar, low functioning, ect.
> 
> But we cannot say with 100 confidence that he isn't and all we are doing is speculating.



While some organizations do make such distinctions(we had a friend declare 2 IRA men mentally unfit to stand trial and she was threatened by the IRA to declare them sane), in fact Islamic terror organization have a habit of using the mentally ill or incompetent to conduct attacks. Someone here could be deemed mentally ill, but still capable of understanding exactly what they were doing. Also unlike AQ, the ISIS organization believes in encouraging Lone wolf attacks and tells the faithful to attack wherever and whenever possible. So technically if he is capable of selecting the target correctly and saying why he is doing it, then I am happy to support his beliefs by trying his sorry ass under terrorism charges.


----------



## Jarnhamar

John Tescione said:
			
		

> Again, as I said above.  My street has more people living on it, than the entire population of the town you live in.
> 
> It is an incident.  No different than if the nut job stabbed two people on the street.  And they are not serious wounds, they are out now. IT would never been reported if my neighbour was attacked.



There's a huge difference between two homeless dudes getting in a fight and one of them getting stabbed and someone targeting a CAF recruitment building and attacking uniformed soldiers inside while talking about Allah.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> There's a huge difference between two homeless dudes getting in a fight and one of them getting stabbed and someone targeting a CAF recruitment building and attacking uniformed soldiers inside while talking about Allah.



Oh please.

Stop making this out to be our Charlie Hebdo.

A nutter, in a city that holds millions, walked into a building and Cut two people in uniform.

Why are people like you so hoping for a major Terrorist incident? So we can be like the others?


----------



## DAA

John Tescione said:
			
		

> Oh please.
> Stop making this out to be our Charlie Hebdo.
> A nutter, in a city that holds millions, walked into a building and Cut two people in uniform.
> Why are people like you so hoping for a major Terrorist incident? So we can be like the others?



 :goodpost:

4900 Yonge houses more than just the Recruiting Centre.  It's a pretty big building and open to the public.


----------



## DonaldMcL

John Tescione said:
			
		

> Oh please.
> 
> Stop making this out to be our Charlie Hebdo.
> 
> A nutter, in a city that holds millions, walked into a building and Cut two people in uniform.
> 
> Why are people like you so hoping for a major Terrorist incident? So we can be like the others?



He's not wrong...


----------



## the 48th regulator

BobSlob said:
			
		

> He's not wrong...



Thank you


----------



## the 48th regulator

DAA said:
			
		

> :goodpost:
> 
> 4900 Yonge houses more than just the Recruiting Centre.  It's a pretty big building and open to the public.



Bingo, if he cut someone else, this would have been an incident.  The two were in uniform, and we have people up in arms and ready to hit Daesh with everything we got!


----------



## kratz

What happened to respecting on going investigations and speculation?

To protect this site, the DS and mentors have always agreed with the rule of law 
and a presumption of innocence. Yes, there are examples when initial indications 
clearly lead many to think guilt and our perceptions were proven wrong.

This individual was sent to hospital. That is a fact that is reported in public.
Nothing reports to how or why he is there. It may be due to injury, mental or observation.
We do NOT know. It is not reported. I ask, why are we spending 4 pages speculating when
if this was another case the DS would be all over it? Consider this before chiming in.

I'm glad our brothers are recovering and able to return to their loved ones.

I rarely sign off as a mentor.

kratz
-mentor-


----------



## Altair

kratz said:
			
		

> What happened to respecting on going investigations and speculation?
> 
> To protect this site, the DS and mentors have always agreed with the rule of law
> and a presumption of innocence. Yes, there are examples when initial indications
> clearly lead many to think guilt and our perceptions were proven wrong.
> 
> This individual was sent to hospital. That is a fact that is reported in public.
> Nothing reports to how or why he is there. It may be due to injury, mental or observation.
> We do NOT know. It is not reported. I ask, why are we spending 4 pages speculating when
> if this was another case the DS would be all over it? Consider this before chiming in.
> 
> I'm glad our brothers are recovering and able to return to their loved ones.
> 
> I rarely sign off as a mentor.
> 
> kratz
> -mentor-


all good points we should heed


----------



## The Bread Guy

OK, folks, since this is heating up a bit quicker than expected, how about a briefish pause to let people take a breath, let the investigators do their job, and let the media catch up with what they deem fit to share.

Back at 'er, in a bit ...

*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## OldSolduer

Just to add:

I think the stabber was mentally ill, highly impulsive and prone to suggestion, that is to say he might have got this idea in his head because he "heard a voice" that told him to do this.

As far as I know, most suicide bombers are those of limited mental capacity and if I may say so "the elevator doesn't go to the top floor".

Just my opinion.


----------



## Zoomie

It's an incident - fact, not opinion.  It was a targeted attack - in the same vein as what happened in St Jean and the National War Memorial - or were those non-incidents?  It just so happens that this nut-case decided a knife was his weapon of choice, vice a vehicle or a crappy lever-action rifle.

Stabbings do happen all the time - acts of emotion, theft, etc --- rarely do they involve the perp invoking Allah's name and the associative violence associated with it - random violence on prominent targets is Terrorism - whether you like it or not.  My comments are not based on some misguided superiority on being from the Big Smoke either - I don't really think where you are from allows to you form an opinion that is more valid than those from small town Canada.  I'm from that 6 million person cess pool myself - I just decided that growing up involved leaving home and getting out and about and seeing the rest of the country.


----------



## Remius

I'm sure the CO of that CFRC is or has filled out a significant incident report.

It's an incident.  Sure.  How significant that is is another matter but consider this.

Canadian Forces personel have been attacked and killed simply because they were in a known location for CAF members and for simply being in uniform in the last 18 months or so in three different parts of the country.  It really does not matter if it was a knife, a car or a rifle.  The act is symbolic whether one wants to accept that or not.

An insignificant act does not attract national attention.  This one has because there are legitimate concerns.  And while I agree this may be isolated, we've now had three isolated incidents in a short time period.  People are talking about it so yeah, while John is making it seem like Toronto is awash in knife fights and is no big deal, context makes this an issue.

On the flip side there is no shortage of people hoping and likely praying this is more than what it might be.  Facebook is awash with people assuming this was teh act of syrian refugee just chomping at the bit to get at Trudeau to justify their irrational fears and anger.

The good thing at least, this time is that the perp is alive and we might actually get some insight into his motivations.


----------



## The Bread Guy

We'll keep 'er locked for juuuuuuuuuust a bit longer, but here's some updates:

_"Police: Man Charged in Toronto Stabbing Cites Allah"_ (Associated Press)
_"Canada says military stabbing appears to be isolated incident"_ (Reuters)
_"Canadian man says 'Allah' told him to stab two in Toronto"_ (Deutsche Welle)
_"Toronto attacker said 'Allah' told him to stab soldiers"_ (Agence France-Presse)
_"Military to continue wearing uniforms in public following stabbing, says general "_ (_Globe & Mail_)
_"Forces stabbing suspect 'very scared,' lawyer says"_ (_Toronto Sun_)
According to the Sun article, the accused is back in court Friday, when his lawyer says he might seek bail - remember, seeking =/= chance of getting.

Edited to add statement from the Chief of Defence Staff ...


> “As we remain steadfast in our commitment to defending Canadians and Canadian interests, we remain undeterred by yesterday’s attack at the Canadian Armed Forces Recruiting Centre in Toronto.
> 
> “I would like to express my sincerest gratitude to our members who bravely detained the attacker, effectively neutralizing the threat from further harming CFRC Toronto staff and applicants.  Their courage in the face of adversity is to be commended. It is a demonstration of the training they receive and their devotion to Canada.  We request their privacy be respected at this time.
> 
> “While investigative authorities continue their work in this very important matter, the Canadian Armed Forces will continue to adapt Force Protection measures to ensure the ongoing safety of our personnel across Canada.  Their safety and well-being is, as always, our primary concern.
> 
> “As usual, we will not discuss the specifics of these measures.  However, under current circumstances, our men and women will continue to proudly wear their uniforms in public.
> 
> “We would like to re-iterate our utmost appreciation to enforcement agencies for their swift action in ensuring prompt resolution to the matter and thank them for helping to ensure our members can continue to feel safe on Canadian soil.”


... and the Minister of Defence, via Twitter:


> Our @CanadianForces members continually show their bravery, at home and abroad. Yesterday is proof of that.


----------



## The Bread Guy

OK, let's see if we can keep this civil, and reasonably fact-ish, shall we?

Thanks, in advance, for your help.

*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## The Bread Guy

A few more bits of info through the continued lock ...

_"Stabbing suspect once had restricted airport security clearance"_ (globnalnews.ca) - _"Ayanle Hassan Ali, accused in military centre stabbing, once worked at Pearson airport"_ (CBC.ca)
_"Ayanle Hassan Ali, accused of stabbing soldiers, described as 'nice' but troubled"_ (CBC.ca)
_"The suspect who allegedly cited Allah during a double stabbing at a Toronto military recruitment center was a calm and religious person, according to one friend, who said Ayanle Hassan Ali struggled to cope with an ill mother, and would only leave home to get groceries or go to a mosque ..."_ (VICE News)
He should be back in court today Friday.


----------



## The Bread Guy

A few more tidbits:

_*"Imams call attack on Canadian Forces 'disturbing' "*_ _-- The head of a council of Canadian imams has condemned an attack on soldiers at a recruitment centre in Toronto.  Dr. Mohammad Iqbal Al-Nadvi called the violence, which saw two soldiers injured and a third threatened, “disturbing.” ... “It was shocking for us,” Al-Nadvi, of the Canadian Council of Imams, said. “He put the responsibility on religious reasons. It’s a disturbing notion.”  Al-Nadvi said the council found the attack particularly upsetting because it has connections to, and supports, the Canadian Forces. Three Muslim chaplains are part of an interfaith community network that works with the Forces.  “When we go there, we see how we can make the Forces a good and friendly environment for Muslims,” he said.  Al-Nadvi said Muslims share the concerns of their fellow Canadians about the security of their country.  “We are not living in isolation,” he said. “We are part of the national fabric. It’s also important we make our point very clearly ..._ (_Toronto Sun_)
*"The National Council of Canadian Muslims (NCCM), a prominent civil liberties and advocacy organization, condemns (Monday's) attack on two members of the Canadian Forces in Toronto ..."* (NCCM info-machine news release)
Still no word on the court appearance today My mistake:  he's back in court tomorrow (Friday) ...


----------



## Loachman

http://www.metronews.ca/news/toronto/2016/03/16/changes-seen-in-ayanle-hassan-ali.html

‘Dramatic’ changes seen in alleged military attacker Ayanle Hassan Ali

Ali is said to have taken his mother Maryam’s diagnosis of mental illness in 2001 particularly hard. His mother was a big part of his life, said a source.

The Canadian Press 

The lawyer for a man charged with stabbing and wounding two soldiers at a Toronto military recruitment centre says his client seems 'very scared' and 'very unhappy.' Ayanle Hassan Ali made a brief court appearance on Tuesday. 

By: Torstar News Service Published on Wed Mar 16 2016 

Ayanle Hassan Ali was a “very charismatic, very caring person,” but in 2011 a relative began to notice “dramatic” changes.

“He wasn’t as social, wasn’t as charismatic,” said his mother’s cousin, Mariam Adam, whom Ali called “Auntie.”

“He started to talk about crazy conspiracies, talking about the working class, the rich, the Illuminati, atheists, Jesus.”

Adam, who now lives in the United States, told Torstar News Service that Ali had been staying with her in Edmonton, after having put his engineering studies at the University of Calgary on hold.

Not long after she noticed the changes in his behaviour, Adam said Ali’s mother asked that he come back to stay with her in Toronto. She hasn’t been able to speak to him since.

Born in 1988 in Montreal to Somali immigrant parents, Ali is the only boy in a family of four, Adam said, which includes an older sister who went to Oxford University and now works as an optometrist in London.

The family moved to Toronto when Ali was two years old, and Adam said he graduated high school here.

“He was very smart for his age, kind of like an old soul,” she said. “We’d watch cartoons and he’d want to watch the Discovery Channel.”

She said Ali took his mother Maryam’s diagnosis of mental illness in 2001 particularly hard. His mother was a big part of Ali’s life, she said, taking him to soccer practice and encouraging him in school.

About a year after the diagnosis, Adam said Ali’s father left the family.

“I don’t blame him, though,” she said, adding that life had become very difficult and Maryam had wanted him out of the house.

Mental illness is a taboo in practically any culture, but Abdifatah Warsame, a Somali community leader, said it can be especially tough in the Somali community, where some see the mentally ill as being possessed.

He said he once ran into Maryam at a Rexdale burger restaurant where she pushed him and told him to duck, mentioning shots fired and the KGB.

“That shows that mental illness is a taboo,” he said. “We stigmatize the person. But we’re learning. Because it’s wrong.”

After graduating with honours in high school, Ali took some time off before applying and being accepted at the University of Calgary, Adam said. But he left in his third year, saying he wanted to work to help take care of his family, so he moved in with her in Edmonton.

He took a security course, but worked just one day on an oilpatch in Alberta because he didn’t like it, Adam said. It was while she was staying at home for a few months that she began to notice the changes in him.

“I started to think: Is he starting to become like his mother?”

Adam came for a visit last year, but she said Maryam, who lived in an apartment with Ali and his youngest sister, would only talk to her through the door, and she wasn’t able to speak to Ali.

Adam said she wishes Ali had received the treatment she feels he desperately needs.

“He was never taken to a psychiatrist, never evaluated,” she claims. “No one took it upon themselves to help him.”


----------



## The Bread Guy

_"Ayanle Hassan Ali, the man facing nine charges after two members of Canada's military were stabbed at a recruitment centre in Toronto on Monday, is due back in court today for a bail hearing ..."_


----------



## The Bread Guy

The latest:


> Ayanle Hassan Ali, the man charged with attempted murder after an attack at a North York military recruitment centre, made a brief appearance in court on Friday.
> 
> Ali, 27, is accused of walking into the building at Yonge and Sheppard streets and stabbing and wounding two uniformed soldiers on Monday afternoon.
> 
> Neither soldier has life-threatening wounds. A third person was injured during Ali’s arrest.
> 
> Ali’s hearing lasted less than a minute and he was instructed to return to court on March 24. He will remain in police custody until that time.
> 
> His lawyer said the time is needed to gather more information about his bail application ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

Back in court yesterday, returning to court (for now) 2 May ...


> A man facing attempted murder charges for allegedly stabbing two soldiers at a Canadian Forces recruitment centre has been ordered to undergo a mental heath assessment.
> 
> Ayanle Hassan Ali’s fitness to stand trial will be assessed over a 30-day period at a hospital in Hamilton, according to the order made Wednesday by Ontario Court Justice Fergus ODonnell.
> 
> As the assessment was discussed in court, Ali, 27, remained still and impassive with his eyes fixed on the floor. A relative who attended the court appearance with several family members and would not give her name said he is “doing fine.”
> 
> A fitness assessment examines whether an accused person is capable of understanding what happens in court, the nature of the charges they face, the potential consequences of the charges and whether they are able to meaningfully communicate with and give instructions to their lawyer.
> 
> When an assessment is ordered, a psychiatrist observes and interviews the accused over a set period of time and then offers an opinion to the court. A fitness hearing may be held, and the court may order an accused to undergo treatment. If an accused is found unfit to stand trial, the case may be transferred to the Ontario Review Board.
> 
> Ali faces nine charges: three counts of attempted murder, two counts of aggravated assault, three counts of assault with a weapon and one count for possessing a weapon (for a dangerous purpose) ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

The "T" word appears - this, from the RCMP ...


> Yesterday, as part of a national security criminal investigation following the knife attack at a Canadian Forces recruitment centre on March 14, 2016, the RCMP Integrated National Security Enforcement Team (INSET) in Ontario charged Ayanle Hassan Ali, 27, with a terrorism-related offence.
> 
> Ali is charged under section 83.2 of the Criminal Code with three counts of attempted murder, two counts of committing assault causing bodily harm, three counts of committing assault using a weapon, and one count of carrying a weapon dangerous to the public, for the benefit of a terrorist group.
> 
> These are in addition to charges laid by the Toronto Police Service on March 15, 2016.
> 
> “Terrorism-related charges require a significant investigation, which can be time-consuming,” said Assistant Commissioner Jennifer Strachan, Commanding Officer of RCMP “O” Division. “I would like to highlight the efforts of our INSET here in Ontario which worked diligently to obtain the evidence required for these charges.”
> 
> The RCMP-led INSETs are multi-agency teams responsible for investigating all criminal threats related to national security in Canada. They are made up of specially trained members of the RCMP and provincial and municipal law enforcement agencies, and national security partners at the federal, provincial and municipal levels.
> 
> “As part of INSET, the Toronto Police Service contributes to investigating criminal threats related to national security. We recognize the tremendous value of law enforcement, working in close collaboration, to protecting the safety of all Canadians,” said Toronto Police Service Chief Mark Saunders ...


And here's what CCC s83.2 says ...


> ... Every one who commits an indictable offence under this or any other Act of Parliament for the benefit of, at the direction of or in association with a terrorist group is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for life ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

Holy mackeral with the new developments!  (Thanks mariomike for sharing this one with me)


> The man accused of walking into a military recruitment centre and stabbing soldiers at the behest of Allah is facing nine new terrorism charges, but he was declared unfit to stand trial in court on Tuesday.
> 
> Ayanle Hassan Ali is already facing nine counts laid by Toronto police at the time of his arrest in March, but the RCMP said the terrorism offences are all in addition to those original charges.
> 
> The new ones include three counts of attempted murder, two counts of assault causing bodily harm , three counts of assault using a weapon and one count of carrying a weapon dangerous to the public, all for the benefit of a terrorism organization.
> 
> Ali’s lawyer could not immediately be reached for comment, and Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale declined to say whether any particular terrorist organization is implicated in the case.
> 
> “I wouldn’t comment on the process. That will all come out in the course of the prosecution of the case,” Goodale said. “It’s now in the hands of the justice officials and they will undoubtedly do a proper job.” ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

Some editorial content ...


> Only in Canada could a man accused of attacking our soldiers with a knife while yelling “ “Allah made me do this” be charged with terrorism in the morning and deemed unfit for trial by lunchtime ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from The Canadian Press, via CBC.ca:


> A man accused of stabbing soldiers at a Toronto military recruitment centre in March has been found fit to stand trial.
> 
> Ayanle Hassan Ali, a 27-year-old born in Montreal, allegedly stabbed several soldiers inside the recruitment centre, sending two to hospital. Nobody was killed in the attack.
> 
> In May, he was found unfit to stand trial just hours after the RCMP laid terrorism charges in the case. That ruling was handed down following a two-month psychiatric assessment.
> 
> Judge Riun Shandler of the Ontario Court of Justice ordered Ali to undergo 60 days of treatment in a bid to improve his condition and leave him able to stand trial.
> 
> On Friday, in a Toronto courtroom, Ali was declared fit based on another psychiatric evaluation.
> 
> Ali, wearing a loose dark grey t-shirt, hung his head throughout the proceedings and did not speak. A pre-trial hearing is scheduled for Sept. 8.
> 
> He's facing a raft of charges.
> 
> The RCMP charged him with three counts of attempted murder, two counts of assault causing bodily harm, three counts of assault using a weapon and one count of carrying a weapon dangerous to the public, all for the benefit of a terrorist organization ...


----------



## Ping Monkey

Man accused in military centre stabbing acquitted of terror charges

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/man-accused-in-military-centre-stabbing-acquitted-of-terror-charges-1.3928605




> The Canadian Press
> Published Monday, May 14, 2018 11:30AM EDT
> TORONTO -- A man with schizophrenia who attacked soldiers at a military recruitment centre in Toronto has been acquitted of terror-related charges and found not criminally responsible for lesser offences due to mental illness.
> 
> 
> Judge Ian MacDonnell says Ayanle Hassan Ali's actions in May 2016 do not fit the intended scope of Canadian terrorism laws.
> 
> 
> Ali had pleaded not guilty to three counts of attempted murder, three counts of assault with a weapon, two counts of assault causing bodily harm and one count of carrying a weapon for the purpose of committing an offence, all for the benefit or at the direction of a terror organization.
> 
> 
> His lawyers had argued that because he committed his actions alone and had never been in contact with any terror groups, he should be found not guilty on the terror charges. They also argued he should be found not criminally responsible for the lesser included offences of attempted murder, assault and weapons offences.
> 
> 
> The prosecution argued that Canadian terror laws could apply to Ali because he acted as a "terrorist group of one."
> 
> 
> The judge ruled against the Crown's argument, saying the federal government's intention behind terrorism laws must be taken into account.


----------



## brihard

Not surprising in the least. And an NCR verdict isn’t a free pass, he’ll probably be in secure custody for a long time.


----------



## Jed

Brihard said:
			
		

> Not surprising in the least. And an NCR verdict isn’t a free pass, he’ll probably be in secure custody for a long time.


Probably about as long as the guy who beheaded a person on the bus in Manitoba.


----------



## brihard

Jed said:
			
		

> Probably about as long as the guy who beheaded a person on the bus in Manitoba.



Vince Li was held in secure psych custody for eight years- which coincidentally is three years longer than the minimum (and common) sentence for attempted murder. Though in any case the custodial time for an NCR verdict has nothing to do with the offense severity and everything with how long it takes to treat and stabilize someone.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Brihard said:
			
		

> Vince Li was held in secure psych custody for eight years- which coincidentally is three years longer than the minimum (and common) sentence for attempted murder. Though in any case the custodial time for an NCR verdict has nothing to do with the offense severity and everything with how long it takes to treat and stabilize someone.



But seeing as he went all the way to cannibalism after decapitating his victim, what's the minimun sentence for that?  As a rule?


----------



## brihard

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> But seeing as he went all the way to cannibalism after decapitating his victim, what's the minimun sentence for that?  As a rule?



Irrelevant, as that’s not what we’re talking about. There is no ratio relating length of treatment to potential custodial sentences. I was merely noting that the length of time in secure treatment can be very considerable, and should in no way be viewed as an easy dodge. Severe mental health cases are one of the things our system handles pretty well. Someone whose psychosis presents a danger to the public may be held indefinitely if needed. Their disposition is evaluated periodically my the provincial mental health review board, and if they remain deemed dangerous to the public, they won’t be getting released. A person can enter the criminal mental health system for quite minor violent offenses that would net negligible time in custody, yet in the mental health system they stay in secure custody for many years. Compliance with conditions and medications is foremost in this.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Li got off easy. Since he’s cured he should be in prison.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Fair enough and well explained.


----------



## brihard

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> Li got off easy. Since he’s cured he should be in prison.



How do you figure? If someone is so mentally disordered that they are psychotic and not capable of controlling their actions, how can they be held morally or legally blameworthy? The principle is no different from if someone had a brain tumor or some other physical disorder that affected their behaviour. Or for that matter someone who has a heart attack while driving and strikes and kills someone. If they could not choose or control their behaviour due to a medical issue, then the onus on the state is to address the public safetyconcern  and the medical issue- but not to punish something that was not a deliberate or considered act.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I don’t *like* what this can look like, but we have to contend with cold hard facts. Emotionality has no role in justice policy. What do the facts say, what makes sense, and what works?

Consider that any one of us could develop a degenerative medical condition that could render us temporarily or permanently unable to control our behaviour. In fact many of us eventually will in our old age. Some people simply suffer from such things when they are much younger and physically capable of dangerous actions.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Drunk drivers are still held accountable. I’m not suggesting he spend the rest of his years in a prison camp but if he decides to go off his meds who’s gonna be accountable?


----------



## mariomike

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> Drunk drivers are still held accountable.



True. On the other hand,



			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> If someone is so mentally disordered that they are psychotic and not capable of controlling their actions, how can they be held morally or legally blameworthy?


----------



## Haggis

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> Drunk drivers are still held accountable. I’m not suggesting he spend the rest of his years in a prison camp but if he decides to go off his meds who’s gonna be accountable?



if you're comparing the consciously chosen actions of an impaired driver with the unconsciously caused actions of a driver who suffers a medical crisis while at the wheel, then you're comparing apples and bricks.


----------



## medicineman

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> Li got off easy. Since he’s cured he should be in prison.



He has an incurable brain disease - it's been treated and is in remission...so long as he stays on his meds.

I do take issue with people knowingly stopping their meds and then something like this happens.  I've looked after my fair share of folks that have done some pretty wacked out stuff because they didn't like their medication side effects and decided to stop them...and then snap when the hallucinations return.  I don't think that the relatively few people this (horribly violent acts) happens to should be trusted on their own in the community - IMO, they should stay under supervision until their disease burns out (which it does in some cases after a certain age) or they pass away.  The person made a conscious decision that led to dire events - the consequence, while doesn't necessarily need to be a forensic lock down for life, should result in incarceration at a treatment facility, since they can't be trusted to look after themselves.  In Vince Li's case and others I've been privy to, it would also be for his protection - there is still a lot of bad blood flowing due to his actions and the ultimate result for him.

 :2c:

MM


----------



## brihard

Generally speaking, those who are found NCR have an extremely low rate of violent recidivism. The mental health system attached to our criminal justice system overall delivers excellent results in terms of recidivism rates.

There’s a huge difference between choosing to drink, getting sloshed and running someone else, and being afflicted with a mental health disorder that crippled your reasoning and ability to make choices.


----------



## jollyjacktar

That being said, l would be somewhat uncomfortable with him as a neighbour if it is only his medication keeping him in check.  To me, that's only one safety on someone who lost the bubble like he did.  I would prefer a redundancy of some sort.

Not very snag of me, l know, but there it is.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Man armed with knife arrested on Parliament Hill

A man armed with a knife was arrested on Parliament Hill on Monday morning, officials have confirmed.

Vice News first reported the story on Monday afternoon, several hours after the incident occurred during the ceremonial changing of the guard, around 10:15 a.m. ET. The outlet reported that the man had attempted to stab a soldier participating in the display.


Department of National Defence spokesperson Daniel Le Bouthillier confirmed that “due to the quick reaction of our soldiers, RCMP and Parliamentary Protective Services, the potential threat was identified and neutralised.”

He added that “as the matter is currently under investigation by the Ottawa Police Service, any other comments at this point would be inappropriate.”

It’s unclear if the attacker has been charged, and there has been no word on possible motivations. The RCMP have confirmed they are not involved in the investigation, and referred all questions to Ottawa Police.

The municipal police department confirmed to Global News that there was “an incident,” and that a male was arrested on the Hill and handed over to Ottawa police. He remains in custody.

They would not say if the actual incident occurred inside or outside the Parliamentary precinct, or confirm that it was an attempted stabbing.

The changing of the guard is a daily event in downtown Ottawa during the summer and involves dozens of soldiers. It begins at the same time every morning (10 a.m. ET).

Security on and around Parliament Hill has been increased significantly since a terror-linked shooting in October 2014 that resulted in the death of Cpl. Nathan Cirillo as he stood guard near the National War Memorial.


----------



## brihard

From what I'm hearing from a couple angles on this, don't be too quick to jump to conclusions on the terrorism side of things. From one of my troops on scene, the article does slightly overstate the actions the suspect took, although there was a physical altercation. 

Generally speaking, Parliament Hill is like a bug lamp for people who aren't calibrated quite right.


----------



## dapaterson

Brihard said:
			
		

> Generally speaking, Parliament Hill is like a bug lamp for people who aren't calibrated quite right.



Yes, but in this case we're talking about a member of the public, not a Member of Parliament...


----------



## medicineman

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Yes, but in this case we're talking about a member of the public, not a Member of Parliament...



 :rofl:


----------



## Remius

Brihard said:
			
		

> From what I'm hearing from a couple angles on this, don't be too quick to jump to conclusions on the terrorism side of things. From one of my troops on scene, the article does slightly overstate the actions the suspect took, although there was a physical altercation.
> 
> Generally speaking, Parliament Hill is like a bug lamp for people who aren't calibrated quite right.



Yup. Pretty much.

When I worked for the NCC last century I can attest to plenty of mental health cases around and even living on the grounds.


----------



## garb811

*No charges against man arrested in Hill incident: Ottawa police*



> ...
> On Monday, parliamentary security officers detained Mooney during the Changing of the Guard ceremony on Parliament Hill, where Canadian Armed Forces members perform an almost daily ceremony that has been a colourful summer tradition since 1959.
> 
> A video posted online showed several Mounties and parliamentary security officers pinning someone to the ground on the east lawn. Authorities say a small pocket knife was discovered nearby.
> 
> Mooney was handed over to Ottawa police who charged him with assault with a weapon, possession of a weapon, assault causing bodily harm and failure to comply with a probation order in relation to the Sunday events.
> 
> Ottawa police originally said Mooney would face two charges related to the Hill incident, but on Tuesday afternoon the force said it did not plan to lay them.
> ...


Full story at link.


----------



## 211RadOp

*Man who attacked soldiers in 2016 shouldn't have been acquitted of terror charges: Crown*

Ayanle Hassan Ali attacked soldiers at a military recruitment centre in March 2016

CBC News · Posted: Jun 24, 2019 1:26 PM ET | Last Updated: 39 minutes ago



> A man with schizophrenia who was found not criminally responsible after he attacked soldiers at a military recruitment centre in Toronto should be considered his own 'lone wolf terrorist group,' argued crown prosecutors at the Ontario Court of Appeal Monday.
> 
> Ayanle Hassan Ali was also acquitted of terror-related charges in May 2018 after Judge Ian MacDonnell said Ali's actions do not fit the intended scope of Canadian terrorism laws.
> 
> At the time, MacDonnell said the definition of a terrorist under the criminal code could not apply to "an alleged one-person terrorist group."
> 
> On Monday, the Crown said the judge erred in his decision and argued that a terrorist "can be a lone actor," said Federal Crown Jason Wakley.
> 
> "Terrorist activity can be committed as readily by an individual — a lone wolf — as it can by a larger group," read the Crown's factum.
> 
> "He committed the offences for the benefit of or in association with his own lone wolf 'terrorist group,'" it continued.
> 
> Prosecutors are asking for a new trial on the terrorism charges - insisting Ali should have been found not criminally responsible and not acquitted.
> 
> For their part, Ali's lawyers argue "Mr. Ali acted alone — driven by his delusions and hallucinations — and not for the benefit of, at the direction of or in association with a terrorist group."
> 
> Soldiers attacked at Toronto recruitment office
> 
> On March 14, 2016, Ali entered a Canadian Forces recruitment office in north Toronto at 4900 Yonge Street, armed with a knife, and attacked uniformed soldiers, leaving at least two with minor injuries. He was then overpowered and subdued.
> 
> Ali repeatedly punched and slashed at one soldier, leaving the man with a three-inch gash on his arm.
> 
> He then tried to stab or slash three other military personnel  — one of whom was left with bruises and a "small, superficial nick" — before being subdued, an agreed statement of fact read.
> 
> Ali pleaded not guilty to three counts of attempted murder, three counts of assault with a weapon, two counts of assault causing bodily harm and one count of carrying a weapon for the purpose of committing an offence, all for the benefit or at the direction of a terror organization.
> 
> "The attack was motivated by the defendant's radical religious and ideological beliefs but there is no dispute that the formation of those beliefs was in large part precipitated by mental disorder," the judge said in his decision at the time.
> 
> "One of the beliefs that the defendant had formed in his mentally disordered state was that killing Canadian military personnel was justified because the military was fighting in Muslim lands."



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ayanle-hassan-ali-crown-appeal-1.5187613


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## The Bread Guy

211RadOp said:
			
		

> *Man who attacked soldiers in 2016 shouldn't have been acquitted of terror charges: Crown*
> 
> Ayanle Hassan Ali attacked soldiers at a military recruitment centre in March 2016 ...


An update ...


> The federal government failed on Friday to persuade an Appeal Court that a schizophrenic man who attacked a Canadian Forces recruiting centre was a one-person terrorist group.
> 
> In upholding the acquittal of Ayanle Hassan Ali, Ontario's top court rejected the idea that someone committing a terrorist act could legally be considered to be acting for, or in association with, a group of which the person was the only member.
> 
> "When Parliament wishes to describe conduct done for the self-interest of an actor, it uses different language," the Appeal Court ruled. "A person cannot, at one and the same time, commit an offence and be the sole member of a terrorist group for which the offence was committed."
> 
> (...)
> 
> In May 2018, Superior Court Justice Ian MacDonnell acquitted him of the terror group charge. At the same time, MacDonnell found the mentally ill Ali not criminally responsible for offences that included attempted murder and assault with a weapon.
> 
> "The kind of lone-wolf criminal conduct engaged in by the defendant was not intended to be captured by Section 83.2," the judge ruled. "Parliament understood that such conduct was subject to prosecution under the existing provisions of the Criminal Code."
> 
> The prosecution, which argued at trial that Ali had acted as a "terrorist group of one," appealed only the acquittal. It called for a new trial on that issue alone.
> 
> In its submissions, the government maintained that the relevant law could apply to a "lone wolf" who commits a crime to advance the goals of his own self-constituted terrorist group. It argued MacDonnell made several errors in rejecting that interpretation, saying that excluding the solo actor would undermine Parliament's preventative purpose in enacting the anti-terrorist legislation.
> 
> The defence countered that MacDonnell was correct.
> 
> The Court of Appeal, in its analysis, said the aim of the law was to suppress terrorist activity but that interpreting the wording of any provision had to start from the principle that lawmakers did not intend to produce absurd results.
> 
> "The position the appellant advances — that the principal and the terrorist group may be one and the same person — is inconsistent with the modern principle of statutory interpretation," the appellate court found. "It is a reasonable inference that Parliament did not intend that s. 83.2 would apply to the lone wolf terrorist."
> 
> (...)


More @ link - Ontario Court of Appeal decision attached


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## The Bread Guy

Good question ...


> *Can new federal unit address Canada's 'inconsistent track record' in terrorism prosecutions?*
> _Since Canada’s adoption of the Anti-terrorism Act in 2001, 56 people have been charged with terrorism-related offences in this country. The outcomes have been mixed_
> Douglas Quan, National Post, January 2, 2020 2:43 PM EST
> 
> National security and legal experts say they’re hopeful Ottawa’s plan to create a new office specializing in terrorism prosecutions will improve this country’s track record of holding accountable those who threaten public safety.
> 
> “It’s been an inconsistent track record,” said Phil Gurski, a former CSIS analyst and president of Borealis Threat and Risk Consulting Ltd. “My initial reaction is ‘yay,’ but the form this thing takes dictates whether it means anything. The devil is in the details.”
> 
> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau recently directed the ministers of justice and public safety in their mandate letters to “coordinate efforts to prosecute terror suspects to the fullest extent of the law” and create a new office of Director of Terrorism Prosecutions.
> 
> Since Canada’s adoption of the Anti-terrorism Act in 2001, 56 people have been charged with terrorism-related offences in this country.
> 
> The outcomes have been mixed.
> 
> In February, federal prosecutors announced that Rehab Dughmosh had been sentenced to seven years in prison after being found guilty of leaving Canada to participate in the activities of a terrorist group and other offences. Prosecutors said she had tried to travel to Syria to join the Islamic State in April 2016 and used a knife and a golf club to assault people at a Canadian Tire store in Scarborough, Ont., in June 2017.
> 
> When Ayanle Hassan Ali went on a knife rampage at a Canadian Forces recruiting centre in Toronto in 2016, injuring two people, federal prosecutors took the position he did so for the benefit of, at the direction of or in association with a terrorist group of which he was the only member. But the trial judge found him not guilty of the terror charge and found him not criminally responsible for other offences, including attempted murder, on account of mental disorder.
> 
> The Crown tried to make the case on appeal that a “lone wolf” can commit an act of terror to advance his own self-constituted terrorist group. But the appeal was recently dismissed by the Ontario Court of Appeal.
> 
> Citing errors in jury selection, Ontario’s top court this past summer ordered a new trial for Raed Jaser and Chiheb Esseghaier who were convicted of conspiracy to commit murder for the benefit of a terrorist group and for participating in terrorist activity in relation to a plot to derail a Via Rail passenger train ...


More @ link

_- OP edit to add link - with thanks to JM  -_


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## brihard

A dedicated unit that pools specialized prosecutorial expertise should be helpful, to be sure.

Counterterrorism investigations are complicated, to say the lease. In an ideal investigation a threat would be identified early, and a prolonged and well resourced investigation would watch the development of a plot, the establishing of contacts, and gathering of materials, the identification and communication of targets... There would be combinations of physical surveillance, Part VI communications intercepts, maybe undercover plays, surreptitious access to and examination of computers... all culminating with a glorious door kick just before they assemble the bomb or what have you. The investigation would have proceeded at a pace that allowed all steps to be documented immediately and thoroughly, and investigative avenues pursued systematically as they arose.

Then you get the threats that develop quickly- maybe off the back of a thinly detailed advisory letter from CSIS, or some human source info of questionable validity. Investigators, often without all the resources they would ideally need, have to piece together what they can quickly, triage the threat (if there really is one), and then figure out how mature the threat is and if something is close to going bang. A thorough criminal investigation may not be possible, and police may need to kick a door, make an arrest on what they've got, and disrupt an imminent threat before an investigation is thoroughly matured. This can leave a lot of holes that can be challenging to prosecutors.

Add to that, once we're sharing national security/intelligence information into an investigation, and you may be seeing some tricky Canada Evidence Act exclusions on grounds of National Security, National Defence, or International Relations. These can lead to their own entirely separate hearings that can delay trials, preliminary hearings, etc. Crown has to be adept at handling these matters.

Just as police have created specialized units to investigate this stuff, and to know the case law and how tools are appropriately used, it makes sense to me that crown needs to do the same.


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## Cloud Cover

Jesus wept...


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## daftandbarmy

CloudCover said:
			
		

> Jesus wept...



We're not alone and, based on what I understand the sneaky peekies need to do a good job, it's not necessarily a good thing...



UK spy agencies criticised for lack of black leaders 

MI6 and MI5 had no one from minority ethnic background in a top post, MPs find

The UK’s intelligence agencies suffer from a lack of black and Asian staff in top posts, according to a report from the parliamentary intelligence and security committee published on Wednesday.

Neither MI6, which deals with overseas intelligence-gathering, nor MI5 had any people from a black, Asian or minority ethnic background in the top posts in 2016-17. The surveillance agency GCHQ was the only agency listed as having any staff at a senior level from a BAME background.

The spy agencies have over the last few years made a big play about the need for more diversity in recruitment. The head of MI6, Alex Younger, has said he wants a more diverse staff to be part of his legacy.

The report also found a lack of gender balance.

The report describes the lack of BAME staff in senior posts as “lamentable”. On lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people, the report records 3% of staff at MI6 choosing to declare themselves as LGBT, 4.4% in MI5 and 1.3% in GCHQ.

“It is not clear why the declaration rates for the agencies are lower for this group than for staff declaring as BAME, particularly as the LGBT groups across the agencies and organisations are high profile and well-established,” the report says.

Work on the report began in December 2016.

Grieve complained about a lack of data, particularly in relation to recruitment. “To gain a clear understanding of diversity across the intelligence community, robust data is essential. Until an organisation knows where it stands and how it is performing, it cannot define and deliver progress,” he said.

“This means that no organisation’s commitment to diversity and inclusion can be taken seriously until it collects, scrutinises and is transparent with its workforce data and can measure its progress accordingly. Unfortunately the current data across the intelligence community is not sufficiently robust.”

A government spokesperson said: “The intelligence and security community needs to attract and draw upon the skills, talent and experience of all sectors of our society in order to continue its vital work effectively.

“As the report states, we have made significant progress in recent years, but there is clearly more to do. We remain committed to further improving this and will give full consideration to the conclusions and recommendations of the ISC’s report and respond formally in due course.” 


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/18/uk-spy-agencies-criticised-for-lack-of-black-leaders-mi6-mi5


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## Jarnhamar

CloudCover said:
			
		

> Jesus wept...



We should go to that as our own little tiger team.


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## The Bread Guy

In you stay, then ...


> A woman imprisoned for an ISIS-inspired attack at a Toronto Canadian Tire store has threatened to conduct another terrorist attack once she is released from prison, documents obtained by Global News show.
> 
> “If you release me from jail, I will do another terrorist attack, so tell your government to send me back to my country (Syria),” Rehab Dughmosh wrote in a note to her parole officer in February.
> 
> The incident was one of several cited by the Parole Board of Canada in a decision Monday denying Dughmosh’s bid to be released on parole. The ruling followed a review on Thursday.
> 
> “Given your continued commitment to a terrorist organization, and ongoing indications that you will commit a terrorist attack if released, the board do not consider your risk to re-offend violently is manageable at this time,” the decision read ...


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## dimsum

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> In you stay, then ...



So...no rehab for Rehab I guess.


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## Good2Golf

Yup, Rehab is unrehabitabilizable


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