# TF 1-07



## GUNS (8 Sep 2006)

Not sure if this is the correct place to ask my question but I am sure I will be directed to the proper place.

My question/concern is with the living standards and training schedule of TF 107. 

My son and his fellow soldiers(Reservist) from this area are back home on leave from Gagetown. We had them over to the house for a welcome home party. 

Though I was not involved in the conversation, I overheard them talking among themselves of how they were being treated.
As an ex-soldier I could not believe my ears that the military would treat soldiers who are training for A'gan in this manner. 

Examples: sleeping quarters - eight men to a room that was orginally for four. Not knowing from week to week where they will be sleeping.
 Being moved to huts where there is no proper storage for their kit.

               Pay is all screwed up, told they were intitled to monies and after they had spent that money were told , it was a mistake.

               Training is a joke, no itinerary sometimes and when there is an itinerary, its not followed.

I am concerned because quite a few are talking about not renewing their contract when it comes up for renewal.

I was wondering if this actually happening? I would like to hear from other TF 107 soldiers.


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## orange.paint (8 Sep 2006)

Although I cannot comment directly on training I can tell you from what we have seen In WTP/petersville they had it pretty good.Two buses layed on one to go to St.john one for Frederiction every night while we were there...far from rough times.

8 men to a 4 man room= add bunkbeds to a 4 man room.(at least they got a roof)
no room for kit? 4 man room and no room for kit?

pay all screwed up..they spent the money before even recieveing it! thats just a big no no.Dont spend it till its in your hand.

Training is a joke...Ill leave up to they guys running the stands etc for that (2RCR?)

Hey GUNS seeming you were in dont you remember this stuff? Too bad they are thinking about getting out,Ive got a few reserve buddies that are excited to be going.


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## Nfld Sapper (8 Sep 2006)

Same here, my unit has a section going on that ROTO.


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## GUNS (8 Sep 2006)

Remember all to well.

One would assume that over the years, the military that I served in, is still not the military my son is serving in.

The days of " It's always done that way", " Hurry up and wait ", and " SNAFU " should be something from the past and not in the vocabulary of todays soldier.

The saying " The more things change, the more they remain the same" comes to mind.

Its not how things are being done that's my concern. Its who its being done to.


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## geo (8 Sep 2006)

Guns,
Throughout the summer, CTC Gagetown has been chock a block full of troops taking courses - School of Engineering, Armd & Infantry are all there & as the centre of excellence - everyone goes there to learn.... so yeah - quite possible facilities were stretched.
Could tell ya that TF 2/06 was training in Valcartier last summer ('05).  For part of the summer = they were quartered under canvas (concrete pads).  It wasn't the Ritz but the troops were made as comfortable as possible - take it or leave it......... there wasn't any widespread quitting by the reservists... it was explained- it was understood - all was up front - no secrets, no surprises.

With respect to the money..... would need to know what the problem is / was. What promisses were made, advances paid and reason for it's being claimed back.

If the troopies didnt have the basics of their 2050 form signed off - they can't be put onto class C - is that it?

Let me know what's the beef - someone might have messed up OR individuals might have had unrealistic expectations.


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## 17thRecceSgt (8 Sep 2006)

Guns

FWIW, I had a pretty long conversation with a buddy of mine today (45 minutes or so) that I bumped into at work who is one of the TF1-07 D & S Platoons, he is one of the Pl WOs and a good friend.

From what he said, yes some of the trng was alittle...well whats the word to use...let's just say it could have been better.  But that was at the beginning for the most part.

I have never heard a word about the pay being screwed up, and I work at the HQ and attend the COS weekly staff meeting from time to time and since the stand-up of the Battle School last spring, I have not heard about this stuff at all, even in the O Grps.  If its happening, it would appear very quietly.

What the buddy of mine DID say was that there was lots of Armchair Generals, and that they were having most of their issues with the MCpls who thought the Coy should be running different.  None of them have been anywheres or done anything for the most part, and my buddy said stuff was happening as per normal for a deployment (this isn't his first tour).

If the admin side was that messed up, he would obviously know about it as Pl WO, and he would have said it was all messed up.  

Admittedly, this is only one platoon in the whole gaggle, but as NCOs and WOs tend to do, he would have told me if the other guys in from our Mess were FUBAR. 

I can only tell you what my buddy was saying, and he said things were rough starting (aren't they always though, which is why Reservists do predeployment workups?).

I can tell you this.  Before the RCG completed the ELOC and went on to the TMST, some of the troops were getting tired of (cough cough) PT in the morning and decided to do it at their own pace, not the OCs.  That is the other side of the coin, some of the troops aren't used to "training" this way and had to adjust.  This PL WO thought the training was not only necessary but started to weed out the ones that were more interested in the thought of going on the tour from the ones who were truly committed to it.  

I am not sure what to say about the not knowing where they were sleeping stuff...is that really something to whine about??  

MRM

*edit - the troops who pulled the PT thing were called to task for it by the way.  Forgot to mention that.


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## HollywoodHitman (8 Sep 2006)

This sort of thing is unfortunately the status quo for Reservists on pre-deployment training.....It was the same on 1-06, and will likely not change. Lessons learned are sadly too often quickly forgotten. My pay was screwed (still is) but at least I was getting paid. There were guys on my tour (Reservists) who went MONTHS without paycheques during pre deployment. This is not imaginary, and the chain of command was WELL informed regarding the pay issues. It all has it's moment, but in the end, despite the MILES of BS and crap they'll put up with/encounter it's not a bad go overall.......Sh*t show yes, for the most part, but on par for the army.

Much of the training is still ad hoc simply because we lack the resources.....The money is finally there, but the means to conduct it is still being worked on. 

Tell the boys to bear with it. It all works out in the end, and let 'em know not to sweat the small stuff......Easier said than done I know. Believe me I know.

Best of luck to them on their tour.

Cheers

HH


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## Armymedic (8 Sep 2006)

GUNS said:
			
		

> The saying " The more things change, the more they remain the same" comes to mind.
> 
> Its not how things are being done that's my concern. Its who its being done to.


Recently here in Petawawa, they had a group of soldiers on a training course for 4 months. They put them all up (Sr NCOs and Officers included) 8 pers in similar 4 person rooms, with all their gear.

As for the money...well? Young uns...what can you say. Pay does get screwed up for us full time guys too, if we are not on top of it.

Training being screwed...2 RCR has not had to set up Bn level deployment training for several yrs. They have a pretty steep learning curve and are no doubt very busy. It is natural for them to be a bit screwed up. In Pet, when we have a Bg going over, a full bn worth of troops do nothing but support the training for the Bg going over. In Gagetown, you do not have that number of people to support the training. So, it is logical it would be screwed up. 

Also if this is the first time they have done predeployment tng, they would not realize how much free time you have. Tell them to get there admin sorted, do pt, an just relax, cause once they go... they will not have time for anything.


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## 17thRecceSgt (8 Sep 2006)

Guns,

Quick question, are they with the Bn or the NCE/NSE component?


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## Nfld Sapper (8 Sep 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> Guns,
> 
> Quick question, are they with the Bn or the NCE/NSE component?



The ones training over the summer are the ones to be attached to 2 RCR _et al_. NCE/NSE don't start until later this month or early next (or so I've been told).


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## Arctic Acorn (8 Sep 2006)

From what I've seen from some of the the BG folks, they're doing a little better than the RCG/NCE/NSE, but have their own issues. For example, the guys in the companies are staying in larger rooms, with over 20 troops. The upside is that they have been able to stay there consistently (without being moved around constantly), but not even having lockers to store kit has caused a fair bit of kit theft (not from them....they can't lock their room).

The biggest beef from the TF 1-07 folks is in part being moved around so much. I don't think people mind so much living in cramped conditions, but its the moving around that is the source of frustration. I think they have a point. Sure, Gagetown is a the home to quite a few schools, and sees a large number of candidates come every summer for courses, but I think there is merit to arguing that maybe they should have been the ones going to 'FOB Argonaut' instead of the TF 1-07 folks. I'm new to the base, but it would seem to me that it would be much easier to block off a couple of buildings for TF 1-07 pers, who will require R&Q until Feb (Wainwright excluded), and push any overflow (courses) to Argonaut for the duration (a much smaller period)? It has to be more difficult to book R&Q for a group of pers, and them re-booking them for each exercise? Accomodations wanted to re-book each of us in our cell for each of the Virtual/Royal Archer exercises (even though they were in sequence)...it took a lot of pushing from 2 RCR to fix it.

 :dontpanic:


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## George Wallace (8 Sep 2006)

What!  Take over buildings and facilities belonging to the Cadet Movement.......Heritic!


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## 17thRecceSgt (8 Sep 2006)

Nfld_Sapper said:
			
		

> The ones training over the summer are the ones to be attached to 2 RCR _et al_. NCE/NSE don't start until later this month or early next (or so I've been told).



The D & S platoons, and the CIMIC and TacPhyOps types all did the ELOC stuff and are in Gtown too.  They started as "one mob" and then got broken up into their respective org's which is ongoing I think...

I am getting dribs and draps from friends in the Bn side, NCE and NSE.  

Some were selected for and went right to the Bn after the ELOC trng was done.   Others went D & S...CIMIC...etc.

Much more might be too much for here on the info side.


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## Arctic Acorn (8 Sep 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> What!  Take over buildings and facilities belonging to the Cadet Movement.......Heritic!



Heh heh...I usually get called a "Philistine"...the change is welcome....thanks!

I guess it's an 'outsider, looking in', thing. I'm still getting used to working with the Bn and Base Gagetown. 

Maybe if I disengage brain it'll be easier....

I've been on leave the last two weeks, so it will be interesting to see how things have changed since I've been gone. I know that accomodations have tried to book our rooms out from under us in that time...

 :dontpanic:


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## medicineman (8 Sep 2006)

I had problems getting rooms with a desk for 6 students on a 2 week instructor's course I was teaching in May - these people had research and lessons to prepare every night and didn't even get the common courtesy of a bed side lgith until a week intot he course and hgh level yelling and screaming from Ottawa.  It was simply because the infrastructure wasn't there.  Every summer, alot of the schools have their candidates either bivouacked in PV or in Blue Mountain or out near the flight line -  that's par for the course in Gagetown right now until the new shacks are built.

MM


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## Nfld Sapper (8 Sep 2006)

medicineman said:
			
		

> Every summer, a lot of the schools have their candidates either bivouacked in PV or in Blue Mountain or out near the flight line -  that's par for the course in Gagetown right now until the new shacks are built.
> MM



Dare you talk of my tent city  ;D ? it will always be there as we had begun construction of 32 more tent pads.

Well the problem with accommodations in G'town is that they book the rooms months in advance and accommodations refuses to let the rooms be used if they have already been booked. Which makes no sense to me.


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## medicineman (8 Sep 2006)

Dude - if it makes sense, we don't do it.  You ought to know that's the alternate motto of the CF.

MM


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## Nfld Sapper (8 Sep 2006)

Yeah I know MM  :cheers:


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## Arctic Acorn (8 Sep 2006)

Well, that makes the unofficial motto of TF 1-07 all the more appropriate

'Why plan, when you can react?'

 :dontpanic:


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## medicineman (8 Sep 2006)

That's what happens when you have to do the chicken dance every day at work.

MM


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## GUNS (9 Sep 2006)

I can see from your replies that all is not  a bed of roses and the guys should suck it up and soldier on. In most cases I would say the same thing. My point is that when soldiers are being trained for combat, why make their life any harder than necessary. My son and his friends have been in long enough to know the routine of how the military operates(or does not operate). I have heard these stories before and I have experienced it myself. 
My son and his friends have been putting up with this since June and have stuck it out but enough is enough. Latest rumors have them moving again,  I advised them to wait and see before flying of the handle. Kit have been stolen already and everyone is aware of the paperwork involved when reporting missing kit.
Someone asked what was the issue with money, unless my son or one of his friends volunteers that info, I can't answer it. If my son finds out I'm doing this, they will never find my body.
I agree with who ever said, it is not the living quarters that's the problem, it's the moving. Our boys say the same thing. The money issue was not their doing, HQ told them they were owed money.  I don't know the reason why. I agree that training will be a concern, lack of instructors, lack of guidance, lack of material, lack of space but these guys had over a year to get ready.

I'll leave with this quote: Never ask why something was done,
                                    the real answer is found when you ask why something was not done.


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## geo (9 Sep 2006)

Guns,
Have been around the ramping up of many TFs over the years.  The Reserve component has had a tough go many a times but, most Bases and areas are adapting and learning.  Gagetown hasn't been in the loop much for a long time.  Gagetown units have oft been components of other CMBGs so some of the planning has been willy nilly and base operations geared towards catering to the Schools.

Time will tell if they too learn their lessons well.


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## armyvern (9 Sep 2006)

0tto Destruct said:
			
		

> From what I've seen from some of the the BG folks, they're doing a little better than the RCG/NCE/NSE, but have their own issues. For example, the guys in the companies are staying in larger rooms, with over 20 troops. The upside is that they have been able to stay there consistently (without being moved around constantly), but not even having lockers to store kit has caused a fair bit of kit theft (not from them....they can't lock their room).
> 
> The biggest beef from the TF 1-07 folks is in part being moved around so much. I don't think people mind so much living in cramped conditions, but its the moving around that is the source of frustration. I think they have a point. Sure, Gagetown is a the home to quite a few schools, and sees a large number of candidates come every summer for courses, but I think there is merit to arguing that maybe they should have been the ones going to 'FOB Argonaut' instead of the TF 1-07 folks. I'm new to the base, but it would seem to me that it would be much easier to block off a couple of buildings for TF 1-07 pers, who will require R&Q until Feb (Wainwright excluded), and push any overflow (courses) to Argonaut for the duration (a much smaller period)? It has to be more difficult to book R&Q for a group of pers, and them re-booking them for each exercise? Accomodations wanted to re-book each of us in our cell for each of the Virtual/Royal Archer exercises (even though they were in sequence)...it took a lot of pushing from 2 RCR to fix it.
> 
> :dontpanic:



And I think your post above highlights exaclty why Gagetown should not be considered/used as a mounting base, but rather the training base that it is.


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## jmackenzie_15 (9 Sep 2006)

0tto Destruct said:
			
		

> Well, that makes the unofficial motto of TF 1-07 all the more appropriate
> 
> 'Why plan, when you can react?'
> 
> :dontpanic:



Thats hilariously accurate.

On the living conditions, they _were_ quite ridiculous for a while. When my group of guys left the RCG D/S group and came to Gagetown, we were put in Argonaut and were told we would be there for a short time untill R/Q were sorted out. That turned out to be over a month staying there... a bit of a hike to work. Alot of us didnt have cars and not enough to pool everybody all the time, and because of argonazis rules, we were not permitted to park our vehicles outside of the parking lot way the hell down the road.. anyway.

After we were moved out of there at the end of june or so, we went into shacks in the D lines. They put 23 of us in one of those common rooms they use for TVs and such. Just bunkbeds.. no footlockers or anything, and only one key to the room, so kit theft was a large problem, everything was always a mess with everyones kit everywhere.. it was very frustrating and aggrivating. I even went so far as to sleep in my car for a bit untill in late august when they moved us into 4 man rooms.

It was a long time coming and alot of bull**** but accomodations are sorted out and everybody is happy, no need to call CTV on that one.

Id offer my opinion on the training and such, but im not going on record with that one, thats a whole other can of worms im not going to open.

As far as the reservists go, if anyone is concerned about us, we're all making out just fine training and PT wise, and are having no problem _keeping up_ with the _regf_. We're all soldiers and we're all doing our jobs, and the transition from reserve life to regular as far as training and working goes was done with little difficulty as far as I can tell.

If anything, the regular troops are having a problem keeping up with us!  ;D


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## geo (9 Sep 2006)

Good post Mack.

Still of the opinion that Quarters in CTC are semi permanently handed out to the Schools and this ramping up of a TF "did not compute" with the boys & girls who make decisions and control R&Qs (not you Vern).

Someone shoulda thought of it and planned in advance.


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## armyvern (9 Sep 2006)

CTC students were in the same posn regarding quarters this year and past years. Modular cities being erected every summer for LFAA TC students and others etc is nothing new. This was adressed years ago by the Comd, who has made it a priority to build new accomodations in Gagetown and this is currently taking place. 

Unfortunately, way back, Gagetown fell to the bottom of Army priorities for new infrastructure because it was "only a Training Base" and monies were being directed to actual honest-to-goodness mounting bases instead.

Which is exactly why they shouldn't be used as a mounting Base. The infrastructure and support personnel simply aren't there. Either that, or take your pick, STOP all training and courses and task those instructors/support staff to support the Op. We can't do both simultaneously.


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## jmackenzie_15 (9 Sep 2006)

Absolutely!

We were actually told by accomodations, (many of us went up there independantly after a few weeks of this nonsense, breathing fire and doom) to get an explanation, and they told us that they had "higher priorities", and we would have to wait untill all the troops in d24 on demo.... *demo* for the inf school would have to clear out.

Now, I would apparently be silly to assume that troops being prepared for combat in afghanistan would be the highest priority to take care of, since this is the entire purpose of the military is to fight the enemy, but evidently accomodations had other plans.

What also drove us mad was the fact that there is no way they didnt know we were coming, and they had months in advance to plan for the 50 some odd guys augmenting 2rcr, and when we arrived, almost nothing was in place, but at that point it was par for the course.. like otto said, "why plan when you can react!" Thats exactly what it was like for months.

No offense to RCR at all, they tried to get us rooms and did everything they could for us, but higher slacked off and didnt get the job done, and didnt listen. Cudos to our sergeant major who busted his ass to get us in rooms.

Like I said, the horror show ended before our first exercise and as far as I can tell, everyone is fairly comfortable.


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## jmackenzie_15 (9 Sep 2006)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> CTC students were in the same posn regarding quarters this year and past years. Modular cities being erected every summer for LFAA TC students and others etc is nothing new. This was adressed years ago by the Comd, who has made it a priority to build new accomodations in Gagetown and this is currently taking place.
> 
> Unfortunately, way back, Gagetown fell to the bottom of Army priorities for new infrastructure because it was "only a Training Base" and monies were being directed to actual honest-to-goodness mounting bases instead.
> 
> Which is exactly why they shouldn't be used as a mounting Base. The infrastructure and support personnel simply aren't there. Either that, or take your pick, STOP all training and courses and task those instructors/support staff to support the Op. We can't do both simultaneously.



That makes alot of sense when you say that. The overall sense of being unprepared was everywhere, but its coming around.

One problem I do have though, is with kit. We're going on another exercise soon, and we're still using all kinds of old kit that we wont be using overseas. Id really like to get some Gen3 armor and ditch these old 1966 sweatervests and get some time to adjust and get used to wearing it. Same for the boots we'll be using, and all the other theatre specific gear we need. Im really hoping it doesnt turn out to be 2 weeks before we deploy and, oh heres all your stuff, have fun.


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## Gunner (9 Sep 2006)

> Unfortunately, way back, Gagetown fell to the bottom of Army priorities for new infrastructure because it was "only a Training Base" and monies were being directed to actual honest-to-goodness mounting bases instead.



I can not comment on accn in Petawawa or Valcartier as I haven't been there recently.  I would guess that most "mounting bases" have minimal temporary accn to support large influxes of augmentees.  Infrastructure is expensive to build and maintain which is why tent cities are quite popular at training establishments.  Should DND spend millions of dollars on temporary accn if it is only used for a limited four month (May - Aug) period every year?  Even worse is limited six month periods every 2-3 years.  I think there are better places to place our limited resources. 

My comments above do not negate the requirement for proper planning for large influxes of soldiers for training, deployment or redeployment.  As an example, for the redeploying elements of TF 1-06, they were placed into hotels rather than have them stay several nights in the limited facilites in Edmonton. 

Finally, when I lived in the shack/tent cities, we really only slept there as trg and other activities kept us fully engaged during most of the waking hours.   As long as it was relatively dry, we were fine.


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## geo (9 Sep 2006)

Mack674 said:
			
		

> Im really hoping it doesnt turn out to be 2 weeks before we deploy and, oh heres all your stuff, have fun.



Uh oh... you're setting yourself up for dissapointment....


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## armyvern (9 Sep 2006)

Gunner said:
			
		

> Infrastructure is expensive to build and maintain which is why tent cities are quite popular at training establishments.  Should DND spend millions of dollars on temporary accn if it is only used for a limited four month (May - Aug) period every year?  Even worse is limited six month periods every 2-3 years.  I think there are better places to place our limited resources.



Gunner, I agree with your sentiments on temp accomodations and better places to spend our resources. Gagetown doesn't even have enough quarters for it's living in personnel or augmentee staff on a year round basis. Even the permanent Snr NCOs are doubled up/tripled up in rooms etc ad nauseum. Accomodations (well the lack of them anyway) are a year-round problem in Gagetown and not just for students.

You get posted here, you have 1 year in quarters, then you must move out. And it's not easy to find yourself alternate arrangements in the huge-boomin-industrial town of Oromocto to do that.


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## Gunner (9 Sep 2006)

Ack.  Similar problems in Wx as well.


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## GUNS (9 Sep 2006)

geo said:
			
		

> Guns,
> Throughout the summer, CTC Gagetown has been chock a block full of troops taking courses - School of Engineering, Armd & Infantry are all there & as the centre of excellence - everyone goes there to learn.... so yeah - quite possible facilities were stretched.
> Could tell ya that TF 2/06 was training in Valcartier last summer ('05).  For part of the summer = they were quartered under canvas (concrete pads).  It wasn't the Ritz but the troops were made as comfortable as possible - take it or leave it......... there wasn't any widespread quitting by the reservists... it was explained- it was understood - all was up front - no secrets, no surprises.
> 
> ...


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## jmackenzie_15 (9 Sep 2006)

geo said:
			
		

> Uh oh... you're setting yourself up for dissapointment....



cant say im surprised


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## TCBF (9 Sep 2006)

"Ack.  Similar problems in Wx as well."

(TCBF adopts Tom Berenger's SSgt Barnes' accent):

"Talkin' bout Wainwright accomodations?  Y'all experts? Y'all know about Wainwright accomodations?"

 ;D


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## geo (9 Sep 2006)

Guns,

As was pointed out by many people, Gagetown is not a base that has lots of experience for ramping up TFs and thus, a lot of people are being forced to deal with things for the 1st time.  This is not an excuse - it's an explanation.  There are many, many people like Armyvern who are busting their a$$ trying to get the job done but, CTC has been off the beaten path for so long that it's been fortgotten or discounted more times than we care to think about....

With a full time CMBG HQ in Gagetown, the TF types might have been taken more seriously by Base, Area and NDHQ staff weenies.

There are some good people at 2RCR working on solving these problems - they'll get 'er done.....


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## TCBF (9 Sep 2006)

A good time for the old guys to say "I told you so!" when we realize it would have been nice NOT to have lost 3 Bde from Camp Gagetown in the late 60s.


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## geo (9 Sep 2006)

hindsight = 20/20 ?


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## Donut (9 Sep 2006)

"Should DND spend millions of dollars on temporary accn if it is only used for a limited four month (May - Aug) period every year?  Even worse is limited six month periods every 2-3 years.  I think there are better places to place our limited resources."

Really?  If the CF needs res augmentees, then maybe that is the place to spend some resources.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but if the CF is counting and relying on Res mbrs coming forward to serve on these deployments, and they pull pin halfway through due to shitty accomodations and poor tng standards, then maybe this is EXACTLY where we need to spend some resources, else we can't staff and deploy the TFs.

For an organization that claims that the individual member is the most important asset they have, then treating those thinking, breathing resources as valuable might be the way to go, else all we've got is some well armed, understrength parking lots.

I've got lots of buddies who've been, are tng to go, or are chomping at the bit to get over there; hell, I've got family in the same boat, some who've been there three or four times to date, and I salute them for it.  Those who are reservists are sucking hind teat every time they get in line, and that's making many others debate why they would do it. 

Acknowledging that G'town is unique (boy is it ever), treating augmentees like crap is what got WATC into the crap bin it's been in for the past several years; demonstrating that the soldiers are valued members of the team, fairly treated and well looked, after is the solution.

And, yeah, TCBF, I've been there often enough.

My .01 (I've got two mortages, I need the other)

DF


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## GUNS (9 Sep 2006)

Guys are willing to tuff it out for a while longer. I suggested trying to get someone to listen to their concerns(again). If only people would explain to them the  situation, I think they would understand. There is no need to treat them like mushrooms, " Kept in the dark, and feed Sh*t". 

When you treat them like soldiers, they will act like soldiers.


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## Donut (10 Sep 2006)

Well put, Guns.

Don't piss on their faces and tell them it's raining, tell them the sit, treat them like the good adult troops they are, and they'll perform.  Treat 'em like crap, and watch them walk away.


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## Gunner (10 Sep 2006)

> Really?  If the CF needs res augmentees, then maybe that is the place to spend some resources.



And where would you like to take the millions of dollars from?  Try reading or quoting my full post vice picking a portion of it to disagree with.



> I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but if the CF is counting and relying on Res mbrs coming forward to serve on these deployments, and they pull pin halfway through due to shitty accomodations and poor tng standards, then maybe this is EXACTLY where we need to spend some resources, else we can't staff and deploy the TFs.



Accn and trg stds are two different things.  I can rationalize poor accn but I can't rationalize poor trg/trg stds.



> I've got lots of buddies who've been, are tng to go, or are chomping at the bit to get over there; hell, I've got family in the same boat, some who've been there three or four times to date, and I salute them for it.  Those who are reservists are sucking hind teat every time they get in line, and that's making many others debate why they would do it.



Lots of Regs waiting in line...part of being in the army.



> Acknowledging that G'town is unique (boy is it ever), treating augmentees like crap is what got WATC into the crap bin it's been in for the past several years; demonstrating that the soldiers are valued members of the team, fairly treated and well looked, after is the solution.



ASU Wx/WATC are trying to provide more services to reservists/augmentees and they have come a long way.  I hope you took the opporunity to suggest improvements via the augmentee survey (if it was done this year).

Cheers,


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## Donut (10 Sep 2006)

Gunner, I've heard that watc was a fundamentally different place these past several years; that's a reaction to the poor treatment in the past, and I did read your post (and agree with the bulk of it)

I'm also not saying to strip funds from other projects, what's there is probably not enough as it is.

BUT, if the CF needs the augmentees, which it sounds an awful lot like they do, then treating those that volunteer like shite isn't the way to get them.  It's HR management, which the CF should be pretty dang good at by now.

Cheers,
DF


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## R031button (10 Sep 2006)

Gunner said:
			
		

> ASU Wx/WATC are trying to provide more services to reservists/augmentees and they have come a long way.  I hope you took the opporunity to suggest improvements via the augmentee survey (if it was done this year).



THe survey was done, and I have to say that I appreciated the obvious intent in better services, ie: the internet cafe, it is not so much the things I, and many fellow augmentees, had or didn't have access to that lowered our moral at WATC; it was the lack of purpose and the overal attitude expressed by WATC towards treatment of augmentees, in perticular a certain high level NCO addressing WATC pt and saying "This isn't the Cadets, this isn't the Reserves, your in the army now," neatly summerized to many of us how we were regarded and where we fit at WATC.


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## Gunner (10 Sep 2006)

R031 - Those same sentiments were expressed to me back in the 80s.  My advice, suck it up, move on and don't treat your soldiers that way when you make it up the chain of command.  If you let the comments by one "high level NCO" dictate your future...you are selling yourself, and the army, short.     



> BUT, if the CF needs the augmentees, which it sounds an awful lot like they do, then treating those that volunteer like shite isn't the way to get them.  It's HR management, which the CF should be pretty dang good at by now.



Don't get me wrong, I do agree with you and alot of the BS could have been solved with proper planning.  However, if you are looking for air force style accn...join the air force.  I would prefer our limited $ be spent elsewhere.


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## Steve 1 RNFLDR (10 Sep 2006)

In the next day or so, I need to make up my mind whether to drop out of university for another year and go on TF 1-07.  As it is, I am uneasy about the whole thing in light of the quality of training I received on my DP1 this summer; seemed like we were just going through the motions.  If an ex - Sig Op finds an infantry course unchallenging, something is wrong, in my opinion.  Hearing that the predeployment training seems to be something of a clusterf*** does nothing to ease my mind.  I find myself missing the regulars.  If anybody would like to offer a description of the calibre of training, I would appreciate it if you would PM me, if you don't wish to describe it publicly.  Thanks.


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## GUNS (10 Sep 2006)

As I am on the sidelines, my view is as an observer. My military backround allows me some understanding of military policies and procedures. I fail to understand how in this day and age we still can't get it right. If the military was a civilian organization, it would have folded long ago.

My military background has served me well in my civilian life and career. If it works for me in civilian life, why isn't it working for soldiers.
My training is from years ago but it still applies today, why does it not apply now.

 In my days you did what had to be done to complete your task or mission, if you screwed up, you took your lumps and moved on to the next task or mission. It would appear that is not happening now. The cheapest and quickest way to correct a problem is to listen to the people that have the problem. Try to solve the problem and in the process, keep your people informed. You will be surprised how people will react when they now someone is actually trying to do something. Main thing is to keep your people informed.

If you screw up, admit to it. If a scheduled task can not happen, tell your people why, don't leave them sitting around waiting for direction.
This is very basic Man Management Skills so why isn't it happening. What this TF needs is for someone to take control, kick some butt, and make things happen. To accomplish this that person has to firstly listen to his/her soldiers. You may be surprised how little effort is needed to turn your people from "not pleased" to "pleased".

For the sake of those that will be in A'gan soon do it now


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## Pte.Shrubb (10 Sep 2006)

Ya a good friend of mine is on TF 1-77 and theres a bunch of guys from my unit and some friends on it as well. I hear about the problems all the time. Some were how they were sleeping in shacks in gagetown then out to argonaut then back into the base then out there again. I also hear how they havent been paid properly the whole time. They lost alot of people who orginally signed up for it to all of these problems.


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## geo (10 Sep 2006)

well... now that summer courses are completed, things should get back to "normal"
quarters that were not available should now be..... available.

Let's turn the page and move on.


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## SeaKingTacco (10 Sep 2006)

> As I am on the sidelines, my view is as an observer. My military backround allows me some understanding of military policies and procedures. I fail to understand how in this day and age we still can't get it right. If the military was a civilian organization, it would have folded long ago.



Guns-

I understand your frustration, but we (the military) very nearly DID fold.  Remember the 1990s?  DND was everyone's favorite source to raid for funds.  We are not out of the woods yet by a long shot and it will take several more years to undo the damage caused by a hostile Govt and an apathetic public.  

Sorry that your son is having a crappy go.

And for the record, Air Force accommodations  aren't as good you might think, either.  Visit Warrior Block in Shearwater, sometime.


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## Gunner (10 Sep 2006)

> And for the record, Air Force accommodations  aren't as good you might think, either.  Visit Warrior Block in Shearwater, sometime.



There is always an exception to the rule.  Mind you, why would any sane person go to Shearwater?


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## geo (10 Sep 2006)

Transit quarters at Trenton aren't bad though...........


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## GUNS (10 Sep 2006)

geo said:
			
		

> well... now that summer courses are completed, things should get back to "normal"
> quarters that were not available should now be..... available.
> 
> Let's turn the page and move on.



Geo,
 No offence intended but the military has been turning the page and moving on for to long. Correct the problem, then you won't have to turn the page so often.


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## paracowboy (10 Sep 2006)

Guns,

your civvie to mil comparison is more appropriate than you think, as most of the problems one experiences with regards to accomodations, etc, is directly resulting from the OVER-WHELMING preponderance of civilians involved in what should be soldier's jobs.


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## geo (10 Sep 2006)

Lots of changes are happening at this time.

Won't make excuses for people who should know better.
From what I've seen, LFQA is currently doing a decent job of ramping up it's own TFs... which was not the case 2 yrs ago.  Some people are learning, more will.....


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## jmackenzie_15 (15 Sep 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> Guns,
> 
> your civvie to mil comparison is more appropriate than you think, as most of the problems one experiences with regards to accomodations, etc, is *directly resulting from the OVER-WHELMING preponderance of civilians involved in what should be soldier's jobs.*



Owned +1


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## 17thRecceSgt (25 Sep 2006)

Mack674 said:
			
		

> Owned +1



So did the troops ever get "permament accn's" after ARTS and ARCON is all stood down now I wonder?  This seemed to be one of the biggest issues (for everyone in Gagetown, not just TF1-07).

Soon time for MG, on the bus again!


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## GUNS (25 Sep 2006)

From what I have been told - they are going to continue with their contracts and if the situation worstens some very hard decisions will be made when it comes time to sign another contract.

I would suggest that since their training will be 90% complete by contract time, they might as well continue with the mission.( vast majority will).

One sidenote from all of this, many had expressed interest in switching to Reg. Force after the deployment but have reconsidered because of the way the TF had been conducted. 

Someone said on this thread that "Some people are learning and more will", with respect of preparing TF's for deployment,which I agree with. The unfortunate thing is the soldiers that were used as training aids have had their attitude of the military drastically altered.


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## geo (25 Sep 2006)

unfortunately an old and all too familiar story....
Leaders learning their lessons on the backs of their troops.

And CTC being a training base VS having an Operational Bde stationed there.... they will learn, learn AND learn again......... SIGH


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## 17thRecceSgt (25 Sep 2006)

But...this isn't the first time the major unit we are talking about here in Gtown has deployed...maybe to this particular patch of ground but...its not like they have never left the unit lines.

From what I have been hearing, the troops that are in with the Bn are quite happy, its the RCG types that are not...and even some of the NCE/NSE types.

I hope they all stick it out.  I know if it were me, years later, and I thought back to "I could have went and been a part of that" and then realized I opted out do to Admin fow-pah's and some frustration, I am sure I would regret it.  I am sure I would REALLY regret it when the boys and girls came back and I wasn't one of them with the gong and the stories in the Mess to go along with it.  

But thats just me.

Hang in their boys, if you are getting 3 meals and shite-tickets, it isn't all that bad!


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## armyvern (25 Sep 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> But...this isn't the first time the major unit we are talking about here in Gtown has deployed...maybe to this particular patch of ground but...its not like they have never left the unit lines.



And to be fair to that Training Base, let's just point out the fact that after mounting Eriterea, Op Athena TAT, Haiti, Op Augural, et al the same problems with lack of infrastructure/support staff were noted in the AARs. There is no Svc Bn...yet here we go again.

Let's at least get realistic here and stop slamming Gagetown...alot of people are working their butts off and doing the best they can , given the infrastructure and lack of support staff, to do their best to accomodate everyone.

*The exact same thing would happen to any Army operational base such as Pet or Edmonton only vice versa were the Army to send all of CTCs 8800 summer students to that Operational base for their summer training while that Base was mounting an Operation. * 

Where would that Base (Pet/Ed for example) put all those 8800 "extra" pers? In modular tentage etc the exact same thing Gagetown has had to do. Why? Because those bases are set up as Operational Units, and don't have the infrastructure to handle an influx of 8800 extra students. 

Crap guys, the Op tempo is tremendous no matter which Base you are at...time for us to all build a very big bridge and get over it.


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## geo (25 Sep 2006)

GMC +1


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## HItorMiss (25 Sep 2006)

+2 GMC


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## 17thRecceSgt (25 Sep 2006)

3 meals a day AND the shite tickets to deal with the aftermath   ;D

And, thinking back to something a WO said to me once...


"If the troops are complainin', it ain't that bad.  When they STOP complaining, its bad!"

Stick on the ice...


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## GUNS (25 Sep 2006)

A former BSM of mine once said that some people look at a pile of manure and only see the manure,
while other's look at the pile of manure and see fertilizer. :warstory:


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## geo (25 Sep 2006)

(... obviously not the one required to do the spreading)


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## GUNS (25 Sep 2006)

Soldiers are noted for " slinging the s**t ""  ;D


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## geo (25 Sep 2006)

Slinging.....????
Naw - we shoot the S***

Gawd guns.... you must be real old


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## GUNS (26 Sep 2006)

I'm not that old but - when you were in  Dad's bag,
I was in Bagdad. ;D

I know I'm off the subject but I couldn't resist.


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## GUNS (7 Oct 2006)

Money problems still alive and well for some members of TF 1-07.


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## geo (10 Oct 2006)

Sigh!
I figure that there will always be "some" minor goofs, errors & omissions but, they should be the exception &not the rule.

Any for instances Gunns?


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## GUNS (10 Oct 2006)

people had their income tax returned to them because money people said they were owed it.

Went to payroll and checked to see if true.

Told the money is theirs.

money spent.

returned from leave, money people want money back.

two options: pay all back in one payment or over two pay periods.

$400 paydays for next two pay periods.

Many happy campers.

on top of that were told they will not be paid over xmas break.

contract will not be renewed until they return from xmas break.

some may not sign contract after xmas break.

no life like it.


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## geo (10 Oct 2006)

Guns,  someone brought up the subject of Income taxes before.... it's a bugger but, true enough that while in theatre their income will not be taxed but, while still at home, it will be.  If the troops were paid what's been held back, they have the $$ in their bank accounts.... and it was prolly spent - yeah, I know... but, while it is an inconvenience, no one is getting fleeced here.

With respect to the XMass break.... - that's downright wrong.  They are not supposed to conveniently allow one contract to expire and wait 2 or 3 weeks before starting up a new one..... is there a electronic copy of the message with that directive?

Pls send me a copy if possible - will at least verify the references for "correctness"


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## Jed (10 Oct 2006)

Better the money people in the orderly room ask for the money back fairly soon than the CRA ask for it 2 or 3 years later. A whole new level of hurt. And, just like elephants the CRA will never forget and will never trust you , personally, again, even if someone else frigged up the paperwork.


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## geo (10 Oct 2006)

Jed.... I had my 1985 tax return audited 6 times... I'd appeal & win, they would contest, I'd appeal & win, ad nauseum. It was quiet for many years, then in 2005, they bugged me about my 2001 one for one complete year & I thought I had made em happy .... WRONG!.... now they are lookng at 2004 & I will have to prove them wrong once (or many times) again   

Ain't life grand?


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## GUNS (11 Oct 2006)

geo,

Money in and money out problems are not restricted to the military alone, everyone will experience these situations throughout their lives.
What you do for a living will not make a difference, as they say "s**t happens".
When it seem to occur regularly than it fails to be a money issue but more of a admin. issue.
There are hundreds of reasons why this continues to happen but doesn't anyone learn from these mistakes and correct them.
I went on my first pay parade in Jan. 1968, in those days you were handed cash. I can not count the number times there wasn't an issue with my pay. It is still happening, is it that there is a constant turn-over of personnel within the pay section, I don't know. I would assume that after all these years improvements would be evident. I suggested that if it is happening to everyone, Reg & Res alike, than there is not much could be done at their level. If it is strictly a Reserve problem than they should follow all avenues available to correct it.

As for delaying contract signing till they return from Xmas leave, I can not say positively where it came from. All I was told was " they were told that their contract signing would be delayed upon their return from leave." I told them that it would never happen and wait till you have written confirmation. I suggested that the military would not allow you to return home without a contract because they would be concerned that you may decide not to resign. Christmas time and family can have an affect on your desire to serve your country. Especially just before deployment, a lot of emotions will be brought to the surface. As I stated just wait and see and if its true, make your decision.

Another small concern while I am at it. Our armoury here is willing to delay their Xmas Dinner and Dance so that our guys and girls  could be present. As it stands now the training schedule will not allow our people to make this function. They plan to let those that make the decisions aware of this. I do not see this as not happening. What I do see is the delay in letting them know.



s


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## geo (11 Oct 2006)

Guns,  Per ADM(HR-MIL) INSTRUCTION 20/04 the intentional breaking of periods of service is a big "nono".... material for a big grievance.

4.1C     Short Breaks. Short breaks in svc may negatively impact the mbr’s benefits and entitlements. Therefore, *the approving authority shall ensure that intentional short breaks in Cl “B” Res Svc, such as over weekends or holidays, are not permitted * except in the case of annuitants or former contributors who are required to take (a) mandatory break(s) as set out in Part 1 of this document.

5.1C    Short Breaks. Short breaks in svc may negatively impact the mbr’s benefits and entitlements. Therefore, *the approving authority shall ensure that intentional short breaks in Cl “C” Res Svc, such as over weekends or holidays, are not permitted * except in the case of annuitants or former contributors who are required to take (a) mandatory break(s) as set out in Part 1.


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## Jed (11 Oct 2006)

Geo, Yep, nothing is sure but death and taxes. Gotta love them endless paper wars with the government,


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## GUNS (11 Oct 2006)

Thank you for official language on this issue.

 E-mailed those affected,this will ease their concerns now as opposed to finding out later.


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## 17thRecceSgt (11 Oct 2006)

GUNS said:
			
		

> Thank you for official language on this issue.
> 
> E-mailed those affected,this will ease their concerns now as opposed to finding out later.



Let's hope their CoC was already WELL aware of this...was any of this confirmed that they would be breaking up the contracts??  Just curious.  No chance it was just a bad rumour?


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## dapaterson (11 Oct 2006)

Traditionally, there have been two periods of class C service: one for prep, and the second for deployment.  This is supposed to be streamlined in the future.  The normal process would be for the second period of service to immediately follow the first.  

In this case, I don't see how the full-time service could be breached.  The soldiers will have annual leave that they will have to use prior to the termination of their service; that will probably take them int othe middle of the Xmas leave period... add the stat holidays and the special holidays and the net increae would be only a few days.


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## geo (11 Oct 2006)

I can only speak for what I look after and deal with on a daily basis in LFQA (aka SQFT).  Reservists are an integral part of any TF being stood up, trained and deployed.  Where they would only sign their Cl C contract immediately prior to climbing onto the aircraft deploying em, they are now entitled to Cl C from the start of their training WITH ONE PROVISO: They must have completed the "big 5" points on their 2050 / opready status sheet..... 
Once the CO has signed off, you're supposed to be OK for Cl C BUT, there is no retroactive Class C - so put some spring into your step and "git going".  
There will be no arbitraty termination of Callouts BUT, if you are unable to meet the standard, it'll be strike 1, strike 2, strike 3 & you're outa there with an RTU... 

Guns, If there are specific problems I can look into for your kin & friends, let me know.  The CF is not trying to be cheap, they're not trying to save a buck on the back of anyone.  If someone is misinterpreting rules & regs, let me (or DAP) know & we'll rattle a few bushes.

Chimo!


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## GUNS (11 Oct 2006)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Traditionally, there have been two periods of class C service: one for prep, and the second for deployment.  This is supposed to be streamlined in the future.  The normal process would be for the second period of service to immediately follow the first.
> 
> In this case, I don't see how the full-time service could be breached.  The soldiers will have annual leave that they will have to use prior to the termination of their service; that will probably take them int othe middle of the Xmas leave period... add the stat holidays and the special holidays and the net increae would be only a few days.



PM sent


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