# S-92/CF purchase?



## Armymedic (14 Mar 2009)

The type of helo that crashed of NFLD this past week, is it one of the airframes being considered for purchase by the CF?

If it is, is the recent events indicative of possible future problems?


----------



## aesop081 (14 Mar 2009)

It is the civillian version of the aircraft that is replacing the CH-124.

Whats your point ?


----------



## Sub_Guy (14 Mar 2009)

SFB said:
			
		

> The type of helo that crashed of NFLD this past week, is it one of the airframes being considered for purchase by the CF?
> 
> If it is, is the recent events indicative of possible future problems?



Well if it was one of the airframes being considered for purchase then there are all kinds of problems.  

1. What were they doing flying our airframe; and
2. "Considered" - I thought the contract for purchase was signed.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (14 Mar 2009)

Lets lock this topic until all the facts are known from what happened to Cougar 491.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (14 Mar 2009)

> The type of helo that crashed of NFLD this past week, is it one of the airframes being considered for purchase by the CF?
> 
> If it is, is the recent events indicative of possible future problems?



It is really too early to tell.  The TSB has a long investigation in front of them to determine of the cause was pilot error, maintenance error, design flaw, act of God, all of the above, none of the above, some of the above.

Helicopters crash.  It is the way things are.


----------



## Scott (14 Mar 2009)

Locked. No use getting a bunch of talk going about this until the results are released.


----------



## Scott (21 Mar 2009)

And re-opened, many things in the news about these machines that can be discussed here.


----------



## GAP (21 Mar 2009)

On the news they are saying the initial problem was mounting bolts/brackets, and everything cascaded from there...

Change ordered to Sikorsky choppers after N.L. crash
Updated Fri. Mar. 20 2009 9:17 PM ET CTV.ca News Staff
Article Link

Aviation investigators said Friday that a gearbox known to be deficient led to a deadly helicopter crash off the coast of Newfoundland last week. 

The discovery of a busted mounting stud on the gearbox has also led officials in Canada to ground Sikorsky S-92A choppers until the problem is fixed.

On Friday, the Transportation Safety Board issued an emergency order stating that the chopper's titanium mounting studs must be replaced with steel studs.

The Federal Aviation Administration in the U.S. is currently reviewing the findings, but has yet to formally ground the helicopters.

On Jan. 28, Sikorsky Aircraft Corp. sent out a service message telling customers to replace the titanium studs within the next year or 1,250 flight hours.

Six weeks later, 17 people were killed when Cougar Flight 491 crashed nose first into frigid waters off the coast of Newfoundland. 
More on link


----------



## beenthere (22 Mar 2009)

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/163206-sikorsky-s-92-design-operations-67.html The S-92 MGB has a history of oil problems and there seems to be some controversy about what Sikorsky is or is not saying about the MGB. The issue has been ongoing for some time. 

Certainly is interesting reading for anyone who appreciates the high that a good pucker factor produces.


----------



## Good2Golf (22 Mar 2009)

CHI491 Track Log

Interesting is the flight track log taken from ATC/IFR tracking measures.  Interesting to see the flight profile at 8:15EDT turn into a rapid (1500FPM) descent, then level out at 800' and ~130 kts, seven minutes later, fly for a further three minutes then descend through 300' before disappearing off scope.

Looks like what most helo guys would do with potential transmission problem, descend to a reasonably safe (lower) altitude to be in a decent position to conduct an auto if something were to worsen.  Sadly something did, but not in a manner that allowed the pilots to recover safely.

G2G


----------



## Armymedic (24 Mar 2009)

Back to my initial question:



			
				SFB said:
			
		

> is the recent events indicative of possible future problems?





> The Federal Aviation Administration grounded Sikorsky S-92A helicopters Tuesday and ordered operators to replace a gearbox component linked to both a deadly crash in Newfoundland and a close call in Australia.
> 
> The U.S. regulator had been expected to issue the emergency directive, which states owners must replace titanium mounting studs on the main gearbox filter assembly with steel ones before they can resume flying.
> 
> ...



If the CF is purchasing the military version of this helicopter (which is what, I think, was eluded to earlier), how will this newest FAA decision affect the procurement?

Further, as we all know, politics had a had to play in the initial tender process, will recent events have an impact?


----------



## Nfld Sapper (24 Mar 2009)

Probably won't as Military Specs and Civy Specs would be different.


----------



## aesop081 (24 Mar 2009)

1- The mounting studs have not as yet been identified as the cause of the crash.

2- The issue with the mounting studs have been known for sometime and the manufactururer had issued recomendations for their replacement.

3- Only one of our aircraft has been built. Since the issue has been known for a while, it follows that ours will not be delivered with the same mounting studs as the incident aicraft.


----------



## Good2Golf (24 Mar 2009)

SFB said:
			
		

> If the CF is purchasing the military version of this helicopter (which is what, I think, was eluded to earlier), how will this newest FAA decision affect the procurement?
> 
> Further, as we all know, politics had a had to play in the initial tender process, will recent events have an impact?



Likely not.  

Regarding consideration of a similar type airframe entering into CF service, one could note even more closely-related situations that did not affect ultimately the decision to procure a helicopter. 

On the actual delivery ferry flight from Philadelphia to Ottawa on October 18, 1974, Canada's first Chinook, CH147001, broke up in mid-flight and crashed, killing the crew, yet the C-model Chinooks entered and remained in service for another 17 years.

G2G


----------



## Nfld Sapper (26 Mar 2009)

TSB releases more details of crash, investigation  

The Telegram


Officials with the Transportation Safety Board confirmed today that a bolt in the main gearbox failed during flight and resulted in a sudden loss of oil pressure prior to the crash of the Sikorsky S-92 A in the Atlantic Ocean off Newfoundland March 12.
The crash killed 17 of the 18 people onboard the Cougar helicopter, which was making its way to oil platforms on the Grand Banks.
TSB officials released the finding during a news briefing today at St. John’s International Airport.
“So far we cannot find any other anomaly that would account for that loss of oil pressure. However, there is further analysis and work to be done on how and why that stud broke,” said Mike Cunningham.
It was one of many new details released today as investigators continue their search into the cause of the deadly crash.
Roughly 95 per cent of the wreckage has been recovered from the ocean floor, and the gear box has been sent to Sikorsky headquarters in Connecticut for analysis. 
Officials related a detailed chain events just prior to the crash, and noted the flight data recorder indicated oil pressure in the gear box had dropped to zero. There was also a power interruption prior to the crash which caused the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder to shut off.
The flight crew radioed they were preparing to ditch, and radar indicates the aircraft descended at roughly 1,000 feet per minute. Impact data indicates the helicopter hit the water with an impact 20 times the force of gravity.
TSB officials also corrected earlier information that the chopper had crashed nose-first. It now appears the craft crashed “belly-down,” with the tail hitting first.
Cunningham also explained that 70 per cent of the worldwide fleet of Sikorsky S-92 A helicopters have now had these studs replaced.
He cautioned that the investigation is still in its early stages.


----------



## dapaterson (26 Mar 2009)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> On the actual delivery ferry flight from Philadelphia to Ottawa on October 18, 1974, Canada's first Chinook, CH147001, broke up in mid-flight and crashed, killing the crew, yet the C-model Chinooks entered and remained in service for another 17 years.



Tangent:  Only another 17 years?  I seem to recall being pax in early 1992 (Montreal - Valcartier).


----------



## Good2Golf (26 Mar 2009)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Tangent:  Only another 17 years?  I seem to recall being pax in early 1992 (Montreal - Valcartier).



Not one of ours...last one went to Mountainview in late-September '91. Maybe it was 1991?  Was Dallaire the Bde Comd of 5e GBMC yet?


----------



## dapaterson (26 Mar 2009)

Hmm... for some reason I'm fixated on Feb 1992, as part of a Reserve weekend exercise.  Though perhaps it was Feb '91?

Then again, they say memory is the second thing to go, and I'ev already forgotten the first...


----------



## Good2Golf (26 Mar 2009)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Hmm... for some reason I'm fixated on Feb 1992, as part of a Reserve weekend exercise.  Though perhaps it was Feb '91?



When you were there, did one of the Chinooks drag a 5/4 half-way off the top of Mt. General Allard trying to sling just after it had snowed?  If so, then yes, it was Feb 91.


----------



## dapaterson (26 Mar 2009)

As I recall, we flew down Fri night, Saturday the crew was still hung over from their party on Friday night there was a minor mechanical glitch that prevented flying, and Sunday we took of from Valcartier and made it most fo the way back to Montreal, but weather condition at St Hubert were too poor, so we turned around and went back to Val


----------



## Armymedic (7 Apr 2009)

From Tuesday's Globe and Mail

April 7, 2009 at 4:36 AM EDT

A major helicopter manufacturer acknowledged yesterday it is scrambling to find a way to equip Canada's next fleet of military helicopters to deal with a potentially catastrophic oil leak in the gearbox.

The design work continues even though Sikorsky International Operations Inc. should have already started delivering 28 Cyclone MH-92 helicopters to replace the aging Sea Kings under a 2004 contract with Ottawa.

The first fully equipped helicopter is now scheduled to land in Canada in 2012, but critics and experts expressed fears that issues such as the gearbox design will hold up the completion of the $5-billion contract.

more on link:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090407.wcopter07/BNStory/National/home


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt (7 Apr 2009)

For those in the know, knowing what we know now, what helicopter would you have selected for the role and why?  I'm quite curious if the gearbox issue is now trumping the tail rotor issues that plagued the Cormorant.


Matthew.


----------



## Loachman (7 Apr 2009)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Probably won't as Military Specs and Civy Specs would be different.



Only so much, or it becomes a completely different machine.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (17 Apr 2009)

Last updated at 3:12 PM on 17/04/09   

MacKay says DND won’t accept helicopter if it doesn’t meet specifications  
The Canadian Press—Halifax

Defence Minister Peter MacKay says Ottawa will not accept a helicopter contracted for the military unless it meets specifications set out by the Defence Department.
MacKay says the Cyclone MH-92 helicopters being manufactured by Sikorsky will have to have a so-called run-dry capability as spelled out in the contract specifications.
He says the requirements for the military aircraft are set by Defence technicians and there will be “rigorous testing and examination” of the aircraft before Ottawa takes possession.
Questions arose over the technology after a similar helicopter crashed off Newfoundland last month, killing 17 people.
The Sikorsky S-92, which did not have the run-dry capability, experienced an oil leak in the gearbox and went down after a mounting stud broke in flight.
MacKay says they will consider findings from an investigation into the crash that affect the design of the helicopter, but the specifications won’t change.


----------

