# Army Cadet League Uniform Survey  Now till 31 March 08



## cdn031 (4 Feb 2008)

Finally your chance to be heard!!! - 
Army Cadet League Uniform Survey 

http://www.armycadetleague.ca/Templates/maine.html (English)

See the http://www.armycadetleague.ca for the French links

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The Army Cadet League of Canada would like to know what you think about the current army cadet uniform.
Preliminary results of the survey will be presented at the ACLC Annual General Meeting on April 4th, 2008.
The completion date for this survey is March 31, 2008.

There are three questionaires :
Questionnaire A for Cadets
Questionnaire B for CIC Officers and Civilian Instructors
Questionnaire C for Volunteers and Members

Note: Questionnaire C should be completed by the following:
Volunteers, Sponsoring/Support Committee Members, Provincial and Territorial Board members, Military Advisers (Regular Force or Reserve personnel) and any other individuals.
Please send all questions in regards to the surveys to commscoord@armycadetleague.ca


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## wannabe SF member (18 Feb 2008)

I am awestruck by some of the propositions that were made in the survey .

I mean Cargo pants?!
Ribbons instead of Badges?! (to cut down on the sowing time I presume)
Generally easier Uniform maintenance.
We don't need easier maintenance, part of being cadet means taking care of your uniform, it teaches us responsibility and gives us pride. Eliminating this would mean contributing to the erosion of some of the RCAC's bases principles

I mean CARGO PANTS 

I am for a redesign, but it would be to make the whole uniform more elegant, not Friendlier to some projected slacker generation which the Cadet league would be contributing  to by implementing this kind of change.

My 0.02$


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## Michael OLeary (18 Feb 2008)

The incongruous said:
			
		

> I mean CARGO PANTS



Uh, what do you think combat pants are?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_pants


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## 1feral1 (18 Feb 2008)

Gone are the days of battle dress, ha!

At least the current uniform looks military to some degree, but with todays day and age of PC, don't be suprised if they given you something less military looking. You know, wishing not to offend 'new' immigrants who come from war torn regions etc. So more tradition lost to cater to a minority.

The current uniform has been around for over 25 yrs now.

Australian Army Cadets have Cadet DPCU AUSCAM (less IR resistant - but the same cut), and for dress, wear the exact uniform )Polys) as we do. Just smaller, with Army rank, but caet flashes on the shoulders, same on the DPCU AUSCAM too.

Supporting ARA and AGR Units also sponser many cadet units, giving them stuff like webbing etc written off.


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## wannabe SF member (18 Feb 2008)

Michael O`Leary said:
			
		

> Uh, what do you think combat pants are?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_pants



At this part I'm pretty sure they were talking about the dress uniform's pants.


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## midget-boyd91 (18 Feb 2008)

I always though that aside from the tunic belt that was near invisible on the Air Cadet uniform (sorry for that little hijack), they looked pretty decent (I'd have preferred white belts, no idea what they're called).

 Going from a personal experience, I'd be willing to bet that civilians think they look pretty military too. My first year when I was in cadets we took a trip down to Halifax for the day (in uniform). That day just happened to be the first anniversary of the start of the war in Iraq, so while we were formed up on the sidewalk on Barrington Street, Halifax mounties closed the street off to traffic, and around the corner comes probably four or five hundred protesters chanting anti-Bush anti-military songs and beating drums, with us standing there in uniform, as if it had been set up that way.

Needless to say we ended up receiving more than a couple dirty looks and foul remarks as the protesters marched past us while we were standing there, surprised, in uniform. I still find it funny, and I guess, judging by the looks the marchers gave us, the uniforms looked military enough.  

Midget


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## GGHG_Cadet (18 Feb 2008)

No, they are just trying to get a general consensus on what cadets would like to see on their uniforms, whether they would like a dress uniform, a field uniform or both.


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## Michael OLeary (18 Feb 2008)

The incongruous said:
			
		

> At this part I'm pretty sure they were talking about the dress uniform's pants.



And since the questionnaire starts with:



> Do you like your present cadet parade uniform?



maybe they're actually trying to determine what Cadets want if they don't like what they have now.


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## Acer Syrup (19 Feb 2008)

I also got the general sense that they meant change the dress uniform to cargo pants. Since combats, as you already said, are cargo's. Army cadets need two uniforms, dress uniform and workdress (whatever it may be). If you don't agree, then stop complaining about how cadets look horrible and not uniform.


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## medaid (19 Feb 2008)

Okay, I filled out the survey. I've seen the cadet pat, read CRAP. You want to know why they're crap? Here are my reasons.

1) The uniform is of a pattern that is NOT Canadian. It is MARPAT Temperate. That is correct, the uniform's camouflage pattern is those of the United States Marine Corps. 

2) The material is sub standard. It is too rough for uniforms and it is poorly constructed. The design is that of an American BDU pre-ACU, and honestly, it does not look good period.

3) The boots that they sell are pieces of crap. Jungle boots?! Please. They are not useful at all 90% of the time when the cadets are in the field. They don't stand up to regular tear and wear, and they fall apart really quickly. They aren't even a proper brand?! They are the CHEAPEST type that you can find!

It is in my honest opinion that the ACL did not do their homework when they decided to declare this uniform as part of the approved wear with Army Cadets. It showed pretty well when they were first purchased from US Cav. Then US Cav set up CANCAV... I mean seriously! Please! If they are going to provide a uniform, could they not have done so without going with another country's camouflage pattern? 

What is wrong with wearing OD? You don't like the old Canadian combats?! Fine! Ask a uniform manufacturer. I don't mean the ones that no one's heard of before just because they're inexpensive. I mean ask people who's had experience in designing uniforms and have them build you something! 

Now, I can understand the concern of how expensive these things can be. I mean heck $100 was the going price for the uniform the last time I looked, and I was shocked, because it was $100 worth of substandard clothing. Not to mention there are no jackets offered, no intermediate layers and... just all around weird planning!

Many of the times the Cadets still wear the old Canadian cbts, because they are fairly inexpensive, and they are not uncomfortable. Talk about non-breathable material. 

If I was to build a set of combat uniform for Army Cadets, or Cadets in general, I would use OD. They would incorporate a mandarin collar, front side entry zip pockets. Zip front closure with velcro over flap, and a rank tab for their slip-ons. There would be a strip of velcro for their nametape, and on both arms there would be bellowed arm pockets with large loop velcro for placement of Canada Flag on left arm and first aid badge. On the right arm it will be place for their units tab, or squadron crest.  

The shirt will end about mid hip, and there will be draw strings in the waist line to allow size adjustment. The pants will feature large belt loops, same as the combat pants. It will have rear pockets with button and flap closure, and large map pockets both sides with zip closure. The bottom of the pant leg will feature shock cords that allows blousing to be done without the annoying boot bands, and it won't cut off circulation, along with the sand trap. 

Rain gear could be drawn from existing rain gear. For intermediate layering, a liner like the M65 with a combat jacket cut like combat shirt, except without the flap closure. It will also feature a large removable hood which rolls up beneath their collar. Or they can just wear their existing Gtx Green Jackets, which i think is really neat!

That's just what my thoughts are. They would be expensive on individual orders of course. Close to $200 a set... however, if you make it into large production orders for the Cadet system, then they are no more expensive then the uniforms that we wear currently. Make them exchangeable items, and they won't be a waste for the next kid that comes through.

My 0.02... what do you guys think?


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## Acer Syrup (19 Feb 2008)

I second that! I really do think they should just keep the old OG combats, just make new ones! The hammie downs really don't fit 12 yrs olds very well.


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## wannabe SF member (19 Feb 2008)

MedTech, I'm not sure I understand, what you are proposing is:

a) A replacement to the field uniform that would not affect the parade uniform.
b) A replacement for the field uniform that would altogether replace the parade uniform.

Apart from that, I find your idea pretty neat.


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## geo (19 Feb 2008)

As things stand right now, cadets are issued OD combats when they are at summer camp.  During the regular training year, they only have one uniform - the sorta Workdress uniform they've had for many, many years.  When they go into the field they either wear surplus store combats or a hodge podge mix of civy & military clothing that makes serving & former members of the military shudder.

All in all, they need two uniforms.
There is nothing wrong with their current dress uniform.  Some cadet corps have replaced plastic buttons with anodized/brass ones, etc.  It looks good & wears well.  Keep it!
They need a field(ish) kind of uniform.  Does it have to be Cadpat, marpat or any other kind of pat..... nope.  A good tough wearing uniform in Kidz sizes is what they need.


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## medaid (19 Feb 2008)

TI I'm proposing a replacement for the field uniform


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## wannabe SF member (19 Feb 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> +1
> 
> camo patterns are superfluous, it's not like we're going to war with these. Right? ;D


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## cdn031 (20 Feb 2008)

As mentioned before These are all good discussions and PLEASE be sure to capture them in the survey. 
There is a broader discussion going on about BOTH the current uniform (which came into effect in the fall of 1977 I believe) and also the need for a field uniform.

The Need for a field uniform, in my humble opinion, supersedes the need for a new dress uniform and could be faster to implement. The Latest Memo, posted on this forum is unworkable. The quantity / quality of OG107 available on the market is reaching a historic low and the inclusion of Marpat or other foreign patterns is also unworkable in anything but the very short term.

We are the only country in NATO/English speaking world that disassociates out military clothing pattern from their Cadet program (Australian, British, American etc) - Prove me wrong on this claim?


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## medaid (20 Feb 2008)

Perrty much! Everyone else wears the uniform pattern of their country's military. The US is quite different as their JROTC program is both a School program and a Military program all at the same time. It sorta preps them for ROTC in University and college days. 

I am not saying go back to the OD, I'm saying give them a distinct uniform in OD. OD fabric is plenty and kicks around at the mills, and if we want we can have a tactical equipment company come up with a uniform. in fact I outlined how such a uniform would look and be in my previous post. Providing good uniforms are not that tough for kids, because honestly? Their size dose come into it after all. They're smaller, which for the majority of the time = less fabric which cuts down costs. 

I tried to get a hold of the ACLC to try and talk to them,  but so far I've gotten nothing in return. I shall try again...


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## geo (20 Feb 2008)

Medtech.... the cost of fabric in the overall picture of thing is minimal.... it's the labour, manufacturing & shipping costs that make up the lion's share of the ticket price.... so, size doesn't matter.  Be they tall, short, thin or ball(oon).


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## medaid (20 Feb 2008)

Oh trust me I'm aware of the production costs it takes to make clothing. I work in the industry. The thing is if they are interested, there is a way to do it.


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## catalyst (20 Feb 2008)

CSTCs have scads and scads of OD's (and apparently there are boxes of unissued ones sitting in some bases supply?)
. 
Cadet corps' CO's sign equipment out of Logistic Support Centers (at least in Pac). Redestribute them upon the end of summer camp when they've been washed, etc. 
Why not sign out those uniforms as well - yes, they'd get more use but if there are still lots left it could be a workable solution until more "cadetpat" is procured or a suitable clothing . We already do that for winter gear, muklucks, etc. Why not just add the boots and ODs?

The corps CO's woudl be very accountable as they are responsible for when they sign out the equipment. The cadets wouldn't take them home - they'd be used for the activities and be returned to the LSC. 

My .02 from a lowly OCdt


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## geo (20 Feb 2008)

Cat.
Boots are "next to skin" and once issued aren't supposed to be re-issued to someone else "unless" someone from Healt Services permits it... 
Combats issued on a temp basis would be a problem as they would constantly be laundered @ crown expense.  If the cadets were permitted to take em home, a good many sets would be swapped with surplus scraps ... ALSO there is also the issue that some parents believe the Cadets are "too" military ( go figure ??? ).


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## catalyst (20 Feb 2008)

Good point - the way I'd figure it is that they would be used for the FTX only...returned like ex stores. The boots are issued out, year after year...I do belive they disinfect them though...atlhough after some of my cadets this summer I wouldn't want to go near those boots!


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## geo (21 Feb 2008)

Bingo!


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