# Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"



## 40below (23 Jul 2009)

An honour killing?
Posted By ROB TRIPP RTRIPP@THEWHIG.COM
Posted 1 hour ago


Kingston Police have arrested at least three people in connection with the mysterious deaths of four Montreal women found in a submerged car in Kingston Mills on June 30.

Police sources confirmed the dramatic development in the case yesterday, 22 days after a black Nissan Sentra was found in roughly three metres of water near one of the four locks.

Three teenage sisters were found dead in the car, Zainab Shafi, 19, Sahar, 17, and Geeti, 13, along with a 50-year-old woman, Rona Amir Mohammed.

La Presse newspaper in Montreal said three people who were heading to Pierre Elliott Trudeau International Airport were arrested yesterday morning.

Initially, police said the case was suspicious but that they had not found evidence of foul play.

It's not clear what charges are being laid, but the Whig-Standard learned that Kingston Police have been investigating, for at least two weeks, the allegation that the deaths were an honour killing. 

More:
http://www.thewhig.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1668566


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## OldSolduer (23 Jul 2009)

This is proving to be an interesting case. If they were murdered and the murderers are caught....sorry alleged murderers, what will be their defence?
If, as the article says, the three were heading for PET Airport....are they foreign nationals?
There is more than meets the eye on this one.


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## Shec (23 Jul 2009)

More than meets the eye indeed.  It'll be interesting to hear what the spin is at this afternoon's police press conference.


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## 2 Cdo (23 Jul 2009)

Something I quietly suspected when the names of the three females were released. If it is true, just more nonsense from the "religion of peace". :


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## axeman (23 Jul 2009)

Kinda makes you wonder what would happen if we brought back the "bad ol days" of capital punishment of cases where DNA evidence seals the evidence.. Or if we used their countries rules to punish wrong doers in our countries if they come here to do a crime and try to flee away ?


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## Loachman (23 Jul 2009)

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> Something I quietly suspected when the names of the three females were released. If it is true, just more nonsense from the "religion of peace". :



Show me one religion completely lacking members who have murdered or committed any other crimes. Just one.

Even we atheists have been known to commit one or two here and there.


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## vonGarvin (23 Jul 2009)

Loachman said:
			
		

> Show me one religion completely lacking members who have murdered or committed any other crimes. Just one.


As a member of a church that has not only had individual members commit heinous crimes, but also sanctioned and conducted some of its own throughout its "colourful" past, thank you for posting this.  When I hear sh*t like "All I learned about Islam I learned on 9-11", it makes my blood boil.  Little do people know of some facts.  Such as The Virgin Mary is mentioned more often in the Koran that in the bible.
Islam, as a faith, is indeed a religion of peace.  Those who use it as a shield or excuse to do some crazy sh*t are no more representative of Islam than I.  And I'm Roman Catholic.


OK: Back on topic.  No matter the case, circumstances or allegations, if proven to be true, this remains a tragic incident.  If there was indeed a crime, then I hope that justice prevails.


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## OldSolduer (23 Jul 2009)

This news item is eerily somewhat similar to the Law & Order episode I watched last night.

The teenager murdered his mother because she was having an affair and her mother was Muslim, therefore God command this young man to kill her, in essence, a Christian honour killing.

The guy that played Sam Wise in Lord of the Rings was the preacher who was indicted for murder, but was found not guilty. The preacher ran a camp/school for young Christians which was in effect a producer of soldiers for the "religious war" on Islam. 

I agree with Loachman - any religion is capable of producing murderers. Sorry about the tangent here....


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## Colin Parkinson (23 Jul 2009)

Well having had to convert to that particular religion, all I can say is that they no one to blame but themselves for the bad reputation. Evil flourishes when good people do nothing, and that is crux of why they are in the particular crisis they are in now. Only recently have there been serious efforts to fix some of those issues, my deceased sister inlaw was one of the people working to change things from the inside. Funny when you think that what Muhammad proposed 1400 years was quite a radical shift giving some rights and protection to Arab woman which had none before. To bad his followers choose not to continue that work. I doubt the prophet is at peace.


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## leroi (23 Jul 2009)

This may already be known to some of you but if not journalist Rob Tripp's blog Cancrime can be found here:

http://www.cancrime.com/

He has been following the case quite closely.

For the sceptical-minded: a video re-enactment of how the car may have ended up in the lock:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtNAuCREDD0


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## ENGINEERS WIFE (23 Jul 2009)

Canal victims murdered by family, police allege
Updated Thu. Jul. 23 2009 2:20 PM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

Police say three Montreal sisters and their caregiver found dead in a submerged car near Kingston, Ont., were murdered by their own family members. 

On June 30, Zainab Shafi, 19, and her two sisters, 17-year-old Sahar and 13-year-old Geeti, were found inside a black Nissan Sentra submerged in water, near a Rideau Canal lock northeast of Kingston. 

The body of another 50-year-old family member, Rona Amir Mohammed, was also found inside the car. 

Kingston police Chief Stephen Tanner told a news conference on Thursday afternoon he was saddened at the "needless and senseless loss of innocent human lives."

The girls' father, Mohammed Shafi, previously said the deaths occurred as the family was headed home after vacationing in Niagara Falls and had stopped for the night at a Kingston hotel. 

Shafi said he awoke in the morning to discover that one of the family's cars was missing from the hotel parking lot.

Developing...


http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20090723/kingston_canal_090723/20090723?hub=TopStories


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## Edward Campbell (23 Jul 2009)

I have been assured by people who can, fairly, claim to be experts in the field, that no Muslim can find any religious justification for “honour killings.” Any sheik or iman who does not, unreservedly, condemn “honour killings,” my expert source told me, should be properly described as being totally ignorant about the basic tenets of his faith.

But, “honour” and, consequential “honour killing” are fairly central artefacts of West Asian, Persian and Arab *culture* – there’s that word again – and we, in _mainstream_ Canada need to ensure that they are not allowed to find any level of acceptance or understanding here. They are abominations.

Thankfully, I heard on the news that the charge is, once again, First Degree Murder. This is the most and least we can do to remind our fellow citizens that their _old_ cultural values are unacceptable in the civilized society in which they find themselves. “Honour killings” and the cultural values that give rise to them must be wrung out of our society; those who cannot give up their old cultural values must be separated from our civilized society because they are barbarians.


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## Kat Stevens (23 Jul 2009)

Where exactly is the honour in killing a 50 year old woman and three teen aged girls?


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## chris_log (23 Jul 2009)

As much as it burns my more sensible side to admit it, from the details gleaned from media reports etc when this happened I suspected from day one (ya, I follow these kinds of things, I'm a criminal justice nerd) this was a) no accident and b) had a cultural connection. 

And yes, I got the 'cultural' connection from the names of the victims. Four women from a recently immigrated Afghan family found dead in a car in a canal where a car accident is near impossible. Someone tell me I'm not a bad person for assuming this (and regrettebly being proven correct).


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## leroi (23 Jul 2009)

Piper said:
			
		

> *Someone tell me I'm not a bad person for assuming this* (and regrettebly being proven correct).



You're not a bad person for assuming the worst Piper.


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## The Bread Guy (23 Jul 2009)

+100


			
				Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Where exactly is the honour in killing a 50 year old woman your spouse and three teen aged girls your three daughters?


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## Jorkapp (24 Jul 2009)

Piper said:
			
		

> And yes, I got the 'cultural' connection from the names of the victims. Four women from a recently immigrated Afghan family found dead in a car in a canal where a car accident is near impossible. Someone tell me I'm not a bad person for assuming this (and regrettebly being proven correct).



You're not alone: I had actually read an article on honour killings about a week ago, and I too thought this could have been an honour killing.


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## BunnyFooFoo (24 Jul 2009)

The entire crime was so methodical... from the backstory of the little girl "joyriding", to the boy taking the other car back to Quebec in the early hours of the morning before the family "noticed" the Nissan was missing.  Then they make an appearance on TV...  Of course he's sad and upset, he just (allegedly) killed half his family.
  Come on people, we didn't just fall off the turnip truck yesterday.


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## Jarnhamar (24 Jul 2009)

There is no place in our future as a race for "honour" like this.

It pisses me off that people import this cultural bullshit along with themselves to our country.


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## leroi (24 Jul 2009)

There are some updates on R.Tripp's blog _CanCrime_ today including a copy of the court document.

How very, very sad for these four women who probably came to Canada hoping for a better life.

Kudos to Canadian Law Enforcement.


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## George Wallace (24 Jul 2009)

A relative of one of the accused puts some spin on the matter:

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act

Teens' death no honour killing: victims' relative

LINK

24/07/2009 4:13:04 PM


*
The great aunt of three teenagers found dead in a submerged car in the Rideau Canal last month says their deaths were a result of "sabotage," and not caused by a culture clash. 
*
CTV.ca News Staff 

At a press conference on Thursday, Kingston police said they're investigating the possibility the three girls, who were found dead on June 30 with a woman now identified as their stepmother, were victims of a so-called "honour killing." 

The four victims in this case, "all shared the rights within our great country to live without fear, to enjoy safety and security, and to exercise freedom of choice and expression, and yet had their lives cut short," Kingston Police Chief Stephen Tanner said at the press conference. 

But Zarmina Fazel, the aunt of the girls' mother, Tooba Mohammad Yahya, has alleged in an interview with the Toronto Star that the four victims died as part of a suicide bid by the eldest daughter, Zainab Shafia, 19. 

"Zainab was not normal," Fazel said. She defended both parents, saying the father of the family, Mohammed Shafia, was "a very honest man" and that the teens' mother was "not that kind of person." 

Zainab's body was discovered with those of two younger sisters, Sahar, 17, and Geeti, 13, on June 30. The fourth passenger in the submerged vehicle has been identified as Rona Amir Mohammed, 50. 

The parents of the three teenage girls and a brother, 18-year-old Hamed Mohammad Shafia, have been charged with first-degree murder and with conspiracy to commit murder in connection with their deaths. 

The Shafia family came to Canada from Afghanistan, part of the world in which so-called "honour killings," or the practice of murdering female relatives deemed to have brought shame on a family, has been known to occur. 

They were on their way back to their home near Montreal, in Saint-Leonard, Que., around the time the submerged car was discovered. The family had been returning from a trip to Niagara Falls. 

Meanwhile, residents of Saint-Leonard reacted with shock on Friday at news that the father, mother, and eldest son of the Shafia family had been charged in relation to the teens' deaths. 

From the get-go, police said they were treating the deaths as "suspicious." 

The three accused are being held in police custody until their next court appearance on Aug. 6.


============================================================

Excuse me!

Four people in a car in 3 m of water, in a next to impossible location to drive into, and not one of the four victims bothered to open a door or window to escape?  Suspicious?  Hell Yeah!


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## 40below (24 Jul 2009)

... and at least one of the victims was still belted in when they recovered the car. You do the figuring.


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## 1feral1 (24 Jul 2009)

They do thse 'honour killings' in their own country, and now they do it in ours (both Canada and Australia), and that goes to show you how much they respect their new adopted country, it's culture and our laws.

Pathetic.

Lets hope they spend the rest of their lives in gaol.

OWDU


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## George Wallace (24 Jul 2009)

Wes

I do agree with you.  Some of these people (of all Cultures) have emigrated to our countries, and have been unable to leave their ....... shall we say..... less desireable "Cultural habits" behind.   

We should be more 'stringent' in educating them as to what our cultures expect of them, and enlighten then as to our "LAWS".


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## 1feral1 (24 Jul 2009)

Fair enough George, but these are the only types who do these honour killings, and perhaps they should grasp something we all have, and thats common sense as they know its unacceptable here in the west, but maybe they know how pi$$ weak our legal system is, and have to sit in a gaol for a few years before they regain their freedom. I wonder what defence their lawyers will use :

Overall we have all sorts of disgusting crimes committed by our own citizens, but I find these honour killings something from the dark ages, and totally 'unwestern' in their 'sense' in their justification of such sick and twisted things.

Family is what life is all about, and to plan a MURDER of a family member for (example, say the wearing 'western' dress to school when told to wear the cultural one - remember this recent case?), not a crime of passion or such, but to be cunning and openly KILL in cold blood is unacceptable, and there is no excuse for it.

Throw a way the key, adn seet an example please.

Cold beers,

Wes


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## Beltlink (25 Jul 2009)

I guess I may be a bad person for seeing this in my light.
I think it is a shameful discusting waste of a good automobile.
The bright side being five potential lunatics removed from the streets one way or the other.
Still brighter yet, they kept it amongst themslves.
And I do appreciate that. No innocent bystanders getting whacked for a change.
Real deep down in your hearts you all appreciate it too. All your family getting home that day not getting caught up in a crossfire or worse because some lunatic gets the kooky religion itch.
(It's OK -- that don't make you bad).
I don't condone senseless killings, but I would stand back and watch a dog eat a dog.
And yes, I do sleep well at night.
Right after my prayers of thanking our Vets for my freedom.


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## Smity199 (25 Jul 2009)

Good riddance, ship em all back in my opinion


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## FastEddy (25 Jul 2009)

Beltlink said:
			
		

> I guess I may be a bad person for seeing this in my light.
> I think it is a shameful discusting waste of a good automobile.
> The bright side being five potential lunatics removed from the streets one way or the other.
> Still brighter yet, they kept it amongst themslves.
> ...





I won't attempt to critique your post as it speaks volumes for itself and the writer.

However, I don't think our Veterans had you in their mind or your philosophy.


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## Edward Campbell (25 Jul 2009)

The *cultural problems* we face have nothing much to do with Islam, _per se_, and are not even confined to predominantly Muslim Arab/Persian/West Asian peoples. Here in Canada there have been cases of “honour” killings amongst Indians (mostly Sikhs) and now, from the USA, we have this horrific story of the gang rape of a child and the consequential family “shame” (dishonour). It involves Liberians. There is no indication that the father’s shame is, in any way, religiously motivated. It is a cultural matter and, I repeat, it is an element of the *barbarism* that infects many *illiberal* cultures.


At the risk of repeating myself, the cultural spectrum does not run on a straight line:

Liberal --------------------------------------- Conservative


Rather the spectrum is more like this:

                                                   Conservative
Illiberal ----------------------------<
                                                    Liberal


Both Liberal and Conservative cultures are _enlightened_ and highly _civil_ized; they differ, primarily, in the emphasis they place on individual rights vs. social harmony. Illiberal societies, on the other hand, are less enlightened and less likely to have well developed _civic_ institutions and values. 

Canada is not quite as Liberal as many would like to believe but we are, certainly, not, in any meaningful way, illiberal. One risk we take, however, is that we pride ourselves on being, broadly, tolerant. That can be dangerous if we allow ourselves to “tolerate” barbaric social customs, imported from the illiberal world.


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## George Wallace (25 Jul 2009)

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act

Family conflict led to canal tragedy, says relative

LINK

25/07/2009 8:22:39 AM


*
The eldest of three sisters found dead in a submerged car last month was in a forbidden relationship with a young man before her death, according to a relative, who says the 19-year-old girl had clashed with her family earlier this year.  
*
CTV.ca News Staff 

Zainab Shafia's body was discovered with those of two younger sisters, Sahar, 17, and Geeti, 13, on June 30. Also found dead in a submerged car in the Rideau Canal was Rona Amir Mohammad, a 50-year-old woman now identified as their father's first wife. 

Father Mohammed Shafi, wife Tooba Mohammad Yahya and their son Hamed Mohammad Shafia, 18, have been charged with first-degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder in connection with the deaths. 

Kingston police are investigating the possibility that the three girls and the woman were victims of a so-called "honour killing." 

Rona's brother says that the family was locked in conflict and that the eldest daughter's romantic relationship with a young Pakistani man may have been a contributing factor in the tragedy. 

"The parents of this girl did not want her to marry a Pakistani boy who didn't have any money. They didn't want that," relative Wali Abdali, who lives in France, told CTV Montreal on Friday. 

Rona, who had previously been identified by the family as both an aunt and a cousin, lived with her husband, his second wife and their seven children at the family's Montreal home. 

But the family arrangement was causing strain, according to Abdali. 

"They didn't have a good relationship. The other woman didn't want my sister to stay in the house with them," he said in French. 

The father reportedly took a second wife after it was found that Rona couldn't conceive. The marriages took place in Afghanistan in the late 1970s and early 1980s, where it is legal to have two wives. 

According to Zarmina Fazel, who is the aunt of wife Tooba, Shafia is a smart businessman who has worked hard to build a life for his family in Canada. 

Shafia owns at least three business, and last year, he bought a retail mall in Laval, Que., which is worth around $2 million, CTV Montreal reported. 

Shafia was also building a large family home in a gated community in Brossard, a suburb east of Montreal. 

Originally from Afghanistan, the family lived in Dubai for 15-years before coming to Canada two years ago. 

Community reaction 

Another relative defended her family members, in an interview with the Toronto Star. 

But Zarmina Fazel, the aunt of the girls' mother, Tooba Mohammad Yahya, has alleged that the four victims died as part of a suicide bid by the eldest daughter, Zainab. 

"Zainab was not normal," Fazel said. She defended both parents, saying that father Mohammed is "a very honest man" and that the teens' mother was "not that kind of person." 

The three accused are being held in police custody until their next court appearance on Aug. 6. 

The whole family was on the way back to their home near Montreal, in Saint-Leonard, Que., around the time the submerged car was discovered. They had been returning from a trip to Niagara Falls. 

As rumours surrounding the deaths continue to circulate, Ihsaan Gardee, spokesman from the Canadian chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, said the term "honour killing" is troublesome. 

"With regards to the term honour killing thrown about, all Canadians soundly reject killing, by whatever name -- a killing is a killing," he said. 

The term has been used to describe other high-profile cases in Canada, including the 2007 death of Toronto teenager Aqsa Parvez, who was allegedly killed by her father and brother after she refused to wear the traditional Muslim headscarf. 

But Gardee said using the phrase sends the message that "the killing of women and children is the exclusive monopoly of any one faith or culture or ethnicity." 

More on Link.
LINK


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## hauger (25 Jul 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> But Gardee said using the phrase sends the message that "the killing of women and children is the exclusive monopoly of any one faith or culture or ethnicity."



True, killing transends all races, colours, and creeds, but the *motives* involved in "honour killings" seem to be highly concentrated to one particular faith and culture.  Rather than ignore and divert responsibility, maybe particular communities leaders should take a strong stand against the mindset that leads to these acts.  That would probably be more useful than saying "hey, this stuff happens to every community".


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## chris_log (25 Jul 2009)

hauger said:
			
		

> True, killing transends all races, colours, and creeds, but the *motives* involved in "honour killings" seem to be highly concentrated to one particular faith and culture.  Rather than ignore and divert responsibility, maybe particular communities leaders should take a strong stand against the mindset that leads to these acts.  That would probably be more useful than saying "hey, this stuff happens to every community".



Islam isn't the only faith with people that condone killing in the name of 'God'.

Christians are good at killing abortion doctors, witches (still happens in places like Africa) etc etc. Let ye without sin...

Just sayin'.


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## George Wallace (25 Jul 2009)

hauger said:
			
		

> True, killing transends all races, colours, and creeds, but the *motives* involved in "honour killings" seem to be highly concentrated to one particular faith and culture.



I guess you haven't read much of the thread yet.  "Honour killings" ARE NOT concentrated to one particular FAITH.  Honour killings are found in several faiths such as Sikh, Hindi, etc.  No doubt you have heard of Vendettas as well?  Vendettas are not uncommon in every faith, especially around the Mediterranean, and Eastern Europe.  

But we digress.


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## The Bread Guy (25 Jul 2009)

Smity199 said:
			
		

> Good riddance, ship em all back in my opinion


Ah, the old "the only good x is a dead x" school - good one...  :

Re:  media coverage, all are considered innocent until proven otherwise in our system, but it's interesting the different stories one gets from different family members (like many families anywhere, I guess) - this from today's _Kingston Whig-Standard_:


> The older brother of a woman found dead in a submerged car in Kingston says the man accused of killing her told him roughly two months ago that his sister had "gone very bad."
> 
> Wali Abdali said he spoke to Mohammed Shafion the telephone about Abdali's sister, Rona Amir Mohammed, who married Shafi 30 years ago.
> 
> ...


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## Edward Campbell (25 Jul 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I guess you haven't read much of the thread yet.  *"Honour killings" ARE NOT concentrated to one particular FAITH.*  Honour killings are found in several faiths such as Sikh, Hindi, etc.  No doubt you have heard of Vendettas as well?  Vendettas are not uncommon in every faith, especially around the Mediterranean, and Eastern Europe.
> 
> But we digress.




Well, some Muslims believe they are.

Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s _National Post_ is a column by Tarek Fatah, described in the linked CBC item as _”a fierce critic of "radical" Islam”_:

 http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1826529


> How to cure the honour killings ‘cancer’
> *Comment*
> 
> Tarek Fatah, National Post
> ...



I certainly agree with Fatah that many, far too many, Islamic “clergy” are quite irresponsible when they (incorrectly) mix Arab/Persian/West Asian cultural norms with Islam; the two are not the same.

I also agree with Fatah that _Sharia Law_ is wholly and completely incompatible with Canadian values and must never be allowed to gain a foothold here. (Parenthetically, we should also refuse to recognize Jewish and Christian “law” also – including religious divorces and ecclesiastical courts which, now and gain, punish members of the clergy for some infractions. Civil remedies to civil problems should be found, exclusively, in civil institutions: courts and/or mediators. If rabbis, for example, want to _mediate_ marriage disputes and then recommend a civil divorce that it fine but the _Get_, the rabbinical divorce, should not be recognized or, in any way, required in Canada.)

The real problem is that some cultural “communities," many of which happen to have large, strong Muslim _communities_ embedded within them, have “values,” including patriarchal “values” that consign women to the status of property and which allow, even encourage, male violence against women, which *must be intolerable* here in Canada.

Again, accepting the risk of repeating myself: my life experiences (nearly seven decades including living and working on several continents) have taught me that all people are equal, but that cultures are not. Some cultures, our Anglo-American one included, are *superior* and others are flawed. We, Canadians in Canada, cannot, indeed must not “tolerate” the flaws in other cultures.


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## Beltlink (25 Jul 2009)

Fast Eddie wrote---
"I won't attempt to critique your post as it speaks volumes for itself and the writer."

You just did, and there is nothing wrong with that either.

Fast Eddie wrote---

"However, I don't think our Veterans had you in their mind or your philosophy."

If this country is going to embrace multiculterism then do so.
Warts and all. Quit complaining because you let a lamb in the front door and it grows into something else.
Far to many people beleive that the toothless lions guarding the front gate are doing a good job.
If so --- then why is the back gate wide open ??????
Also there are far too many peope that think they can pet an aligator.

All anyone has to do is look at Europe (with their eyes open that is).
Britain, France, Belgium Holland -- the names of these countries and more should be familiar.

There in that list is what happens when toothless lions run the show.

History repeats itself and at the same time -- it expands.

When the carnage hits the streets here some may want to come back and read my post.
And I have talked to Veterans. From WW1 to present.
The only difference between myself and others that have talked to them, I beleive I listened.
Europe is in the mess it is in because they have allowed it. "Again and again", and now again.
And we are on the same trail.

Not in our time -- but in a time soon to come -- 49%/51% is all it will take to change the Lambs into Aligators.
Our own rules say so. Even I can't argue that one.

And in ending -- there is still a lot of sand in this country, room for more heads.
To my knowledge it is still free.

I don't allow sand on my property  -- it blurs my vision of the back gate.

Be well, and live in peace.


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## zipperhead_cop (28 Jul 2009)

Beltlink said:
			
		

> Far to many people beleive that the toothless lions guarding the front gate are doing a good job.



I would be curious to find out whom you think the "toothless lions" are.  

Would you have, perhaps, ever known of a poster named cmndr-cb?


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## Edward Campbell (28 Jul 2009)

Shec said:
			
		

> Mr. Campbell, once again your sagacity contributes greatly to the quality of debate on this site.  However, and with all respect, may I offer a point of clarification?  A Get is not a requirement or a prerequisite for a divorce in Canada.  Rabbinical law holds that the civil laws of the country of residence take precedence to Rabbincal law.  All a Get does is enable the divorced parties to re-marry according to Jewish customs and traditions.  In the absence of one Canadian law holds that a Jewish couple can still divorce.   Nor does it tolerate one party using the refusal to grant a Get as a lever of coercion.
> 
> Curiously enough as a result of this linkage (or,perhaps more appropriately,lack thereof), Canadian law is providing a model for the amendment of Israeli divorce laws:
> 
> ...



Thank you for that, Shec. I think I understood the fine distinction of what the _Get_ does and doesn't get you (I cannot resist puns! It's a major character flaw.  :'(  ) but it is a point well worth making and we thank you for doing it.

I was unaware of the information on the link.

The Jews, (*not* and _ethnic_ group or a "race") have a long, long "continuous" history - like the Afghans, Chinese and Persian/Iranians they are an "old" culture. Old cultures are often patriarchal. The Chinese have, nearly, but only in the cities, overcome their "age." Urban Chinese women are, for all practical purposes just as "equal" as urban Canadian women. The Afghans and Persian/Iranians are having more difficulty, even when they migrate to modern, liberal states. The Jews are, as they traditionally have, adapting to the societies in which they live and they are making Israel a modern, liberal society.


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## OldSolduer (28 Jul 2009)

Beltlink said:
			
		

> I guess I may be a bad person for seeing this in my light.
> I think it is a shameful discusting waste of a good automobile.
> The bright side being five potential lunatics removed from the streets one way or the other.
> Still brighter yet, they kept it amongst themslves.
> ...


I WILL comment on your post.

You, sir or madam, have no place alongside our Veterans. You are displaying racist tendencies which are not welcome here. 
These women were not "lunatics". THEY were attempting to adapt to our norms, and were MURDERED for doing so.
MURDERING someone because they have besmirched some arrogant man's sense of "honour" is unacceptable. Period.


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## Beltlink (28 Jul 2009)

I would be curious to find out whom you think the "toothless lions" are.  
(I beleive politicians are "toothless lions.)

Would you have, perhaps, ever known of a poster named cmndr-cb?  
(No -- )

You, sir or madam, have no place alongside our Veterans.
(Too late for that) -- and please --you don't have to call me sir.)

You are displaying racist tendencies which are not welcome here. 
(I extend caution in many directions. When I said I would watch a dog eat a dog that included gangs that shoot each other up, drug dealers and the like.-- poor choice of words at the time I will admit.)

THEY were attempting to adapt to our norms, and were MURDERED for doing so.
MURDERING someone because they have besmirched some arrogant man's sense of "honour" is unacceptable. Period.
(The truth is -- we don not know exactly what went on -- there is nothing more than mere speculation --"at least that is the way I see it" -- given on this forum.)
( For all any of us know they may have been escapeing to warn others of foul deeds to come.)
(I merely stated that I was glad they kept it amongst themselves. I didn't ask that the whole of them be shipped out,or chastised as a religion.)
(And if you would care to note  -- I have never once given this situation the respect of calling it an "Honour Killing" as many have. There is no honour in this. If that it what the world chooses to call it. I prefered to, you will note, to refer it as a senseless killing. By continually calling it an honour killing merely brings recognition to those who commit these acts as being succesful. But all I suppose are or should bve free to call it what they choose.)
(You may e-mail as you wish "Old Soldier"  -- as you have -- I would prefer you didn't offer threats, even mild ones. You are ceretainly within your rights to say what you wish, which apparently I am not. Each of us have opnions. And I do welcome yours.But no need for that.)

(I will disengage from this post -- as it was not my intention to start a riot.)

In ending ---
"Old Soldier"
I see by your avitar you have suffered a great loss.
For that I am truely deeply sorry.
The personel Sacrifice of your Son and that of his Collegues and those in the world like them while extending their hand of help to those oppressed is in my opinion is where Honour has it's only place.
(I will Remember).

Be well, live in Peace.

Beltlink --- out.


----------



## Jarnhamar (28 Jul 2009)

> I don't condone senseless killings, but I would stand back and watch a dog eat a dog.



The difference between a sheep and a Shepard.


----------



## OldSolduer (28 Jul 2009)

Beltlink - no threats were intended. I'm just warning you that most of us....virtually all of us that post here regularly have a very....well we are like sheepdogs. We protect the flock or sheep, no matter who is in the flock. And as you know, sheepdogs don't like wolves very much.
My PM was intended to steer you straight.

Thank you!





			
				Flawed Design said:
			
		

> The difference between a sheep and a Shepard.


----------



## Edward Campbell (29 Jul 2009)

Barbara Kay has an opinion, reproduced here under the Fair Deal provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s _National Post_, but I think it is poorly conceived:

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/07/29/barbara-kay-honour-killing-is-not-domestic-violence.aspx


> Barbara Kay: Honour killing is not 'domestic' violence
> 
> July 29, 2009
> 
> ...




At the (continuing) risk of repeating myself: “honour killings” are not part of or condoned by Islam. Any Muslim who, even a “holy man” with a PhD in the topic who suggest that Islam does permit such a thing is, clearly, an ignoramus. 

“Honour” killings are part and parcel of several cultures – and not just “foreign,” dark skinneedc cultures, either.

Ms. Kay gets close to the truth when she mentions our _”chivalric tradition of honour”_, which is about 1,000 years old. 

Other cultures have “codes of honour” related to a warrior class – including the Arabs, from whom European chivalry likely came, via Spain - but few (none of which I am aware) incorporated the ideas of “courtly love” and the “responsibility to protect” women that came to exemplify European chivalry by, say, 1,000 years ago.

One other factor is urban vs. rural societies.

Western Europe was, by 1,000, essentially a “settled” place. So were China, India and Japan. North Africa, the Middle East and West Asia were still nomadic – herding, raiding and trading societies, in the main. Women took increasingly important and “valuable” roles in settled societies, whether in the town or on the farm, as they “specialized” (see Adam Smith, _et al_) and their responsible roles gave them status and independence and made it important to protect them. Women were (still are) less critical in nomadic societies and there was, and still is, a tendency to _“commodify”_ them and make them property – like the animals.

The *cultural problem* is that women are perceived, in *some cultures*, to lack value, except as _”reflections”_ of the status and “honour” of their the patriarchal families. When that happens it is too easy to remove their humanity and consider them as property rather than as “loved ones.” Religion has nothing to do with it, except for the fact that many of the “weak,” indeed *inferior* cultures in which such customs are common happen to be Islamic. The “strong,” *superior* cultures resisted Islam and turned it away when the opportunity arose and kept their *superior* values.


----------



## Edward Campbell (30 Jul 2009)

The _cultural_ proclivity to treat women as *private* property  - imposed *modesty* being, in fact, a way to enhance that _”privacy”_ - and to enforce that status through both mosques and law courts is alive and well in Sudan as this article, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s _National Post_, illustrates:

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Woman+accused+immodesty+wearing+pants+braves+lashes/1843576/story.html


> Woman accused of immodesty for wearing pants braves 40 lashes
> *Former journalist's fight will test Sudan's decency laws, lawyer says*
> 
> Andrew Heavens, Reuters
> ...




I take minor issue with one tiny bit of the story. My understanding, at it may be flawed, is that most of Southern Sudan is animist rather that Christian but that’s just a quibble.

The issue is *slavery*. That is what too many “inferior” cultures still practice. Slavery is still common in Sudan and that reinforces the idea that women can be private property, too.

The end* of slavery in the West followed our _enlightenment_. Slavery still persists in China and, I think in other parts of Asia, but Confucians, especially, have long condemned the _idea_ of people as property even they accept that bondage might be a “natural” state of misfortune.

The point is that most African, Middle Eastern and West Asian _cultures_ are in dire need of some _enlightenment_ that, based on our experience, may not be possible until there has been a religious _reformation_.

Reformations, again based on our experience, in the West, are usually long lasting and very violent events.  


--------------------
* But not as early as we usually think. Indentured servitude (which might as well have been slavery) persisted, in Canada, well into the late 19th century.


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## GAP (30 Jul 2009)

> The end* of slavery in the West followed our enlightenment. Slavery still persists in China and, I think in other parts of Asia, but Confucians, especially, have long condemned the idea of people as property even they accept that bondage might be a “natural” state of misfortune.



Slavery in its' many forms is still alive and well in the West....we just put a polite face on it and call it something else....from the asians who come over as indentured servants to the Nannies who live a life of restriction by their "employers"....


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## PMedMoe (5 Aug 2009)

Peter Worthington's comment in The Sun

*Some ‘honour’
A characteristic of honour killings is that the accused has no right of defence*
Article Link

Why do they call it “honour killing”? It’s anything but honourable. 

Then again, it’s like dictatorial tyrannies calling themselves “peoples’ democracies” when they’re neither for the people nor democratic. 

The possible honour killings of four women found dead in a car in the Rideau Canal near Kingston would be only the latest manifestation of this obscenity. 

The alleged perpetrators have been charged (including the father, mother and the girls’ brother), and if found guilty will be due for a long stay in Canada ... in prison. Some “honour”! 

So-called “honour killings” are a worldwide phenomenon, if not epidemic, peculiar mainly to the Mideast and Asia, where a family member (usually female) has supposedly brought dishonour to the family or clan that can only be expunged by the person’s death. 

Human rights and women’s groups point out there’s nothing in the Qur’an that dictates the murder of women for transgressions — usually sexual, but not necessarily. 

Often, under-age boys in the offended family are assigned to kill the female offender because as minors they will be treated more leniently. 

Too often there’s no penalty for the murderer(s). In some countries (Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Iran, Iraq) men who “honour” kill their wives (or daughters or sisters) for adultery, may be “exempt” from penalty. 

Thousands of women are killed every year for reasons ranging from refusal to wear head coverings, to having a love poem written in their name, to having arguments over clothes. 

There have been bizarre cases where a husband dreamed his wife was unfaithful, and so was thought justified in killing her. A girl in Turkey had her throat cut when her name was mentioned in a love poem on the radio. 

National Geographic recalls that a mentally retarded girl in Pakistan who was raped, was subsequently executed because she supposedly brought shame to the tribe. A conservative estimate has three women per day subjected to honour killings in Pakistan. 

A characteristic of honour killings is that the accused has no right of defence. There is no need to prove guilt — the accusation alone is enough to bring dishonour that can only be removed by execution. 

According to UNICEF, some 5,000 brides in India are killed annually because their dowries are too small. In Latin America, when women are murdered in “crimes of passion,” it often results in a lesser penalty for their killers compared to other murders. 

The UN’s Human Rights Commission has recorded “honour killings” in Britain, Canada, the U.S., throughout Europe, Bangladesh, Ecuador, Brazil, Egypt, Italy, Morocco, Sweden, Turkey, Uganda. 

In some countries, honour killing is a cultural institution — Iran, Afghanistan, parts of Pakistan (where 1,000 women a year are victims). 

It’s difficult to determine the number of honour killings, since they can be disguised and the community often closes ranks. In India, young women who have supposedly dishonoured their family have been set on fire. 

In theory, honour killings also apply to men, but are much more rare. In sexual offences, women are usually blamed for tempting men, or provoking their illicit sexual behaviour. 

Strangely, perhaps, it is often women themselves who justify honour killings. Similarly, some defend the burka or hijab as a matter of choice, and not as a symbol of subservience or male dominance. 

If the murders of the four women in the submerged car in the Rideau Canal, which shocked the nation, were indeed honour killings, they are neither unique nor unusual among those familiar with the despicable practice, which shows few signs of being curtailed.


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## templeton peck (6 Aug 2009)

Are we fighting and dying in Afghanistan in order to protect these people and their culture? We already know that young men handed over to Afg. authorities are routinely raped, the voting is rigged, and women still are property of men regardless of Taliban influence, so what are we really doing there? All these people know is death - to hell with them.


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## 1feral1 (7 Aug 2009)

templeton peck said:
			
		

> Are we fighting and dying in Afghanistan in order to protect these people and their culture? We already know that young men handed over to Afg. authorities are routinely raped, the voting is rigged, and women still are property of men regardless of Taliban influence, so what are we really doing there? All these people know is death - to hell with them.



.....and what do yu suggest?

OWDU


----------



## Foxhound (7 Aug 2009)

templeton peck said:
			
		

> All these people know is death - to hell with them.



Which "these people"?


----------



## templeton peck (10 Aug 2009)

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> .....and what do yu suggest?
> 
> OWDU


Well, how about not meddeling in their business for a start? How arrogant to think we can change them in the first place.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (10 Aug 2009)

templeton peck said:
			
		

> Well, how about not meddling in their business for a start? How arrogant to think we can change them in the first place.



So, we should stand idly by while women and children are killed, maimed and their human rights denied while being treated as slaves by uneducated religious cultural fanatics? How arrogant of you, to think that you hold such a position in the world society, that you can ignore human suffering, but I see your signature line sums you up pretty well.

Sorry, the sky is blue in the world I inhabit, and if, as your profile suggests, you are in the recruiting phase, you best read this lesson On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs before you engage, with us, in this honourable profession of ours.


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## 1feral1 (10 Aug 2009)

templeton peck said:
			
		

> Well, how about not meddeling in their business for a start? How arrogant to think we can change them in the first place.



And to think you want to be a Member, and artillery at that.

I've said enough   : (gags)

Edits to say 'great attitude'.

OWDU 
Veteran.


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## Edward Campbell (10 Aug 2009)

templeton peck said:
			
		

> Well, how about not meddeling in their business for a start? How arrogant to think we can change them in the first place.



Itr becomes *my business*, *Canadian society's business* and, as a matter of law, the *Queen's business* when someone's unacceptable cultural proclivity bumps into the rights and freedoms of people in Canada. No one has *any right* to kill someone for their misconceived barbaric notion of honour. Our culture, which is vastly superior to any and all that _tolerate_ "honour killings" and slavery, will not, must not tolerate it.

I have pointed out before that "honour killings" are not a religious issue. There is no religious "justification" for them - anyone who tries to argue for that case, based on any of the "great religions," is an ignorant fool - even if they are priest, rabbi or iman.

"Honour killings" are barbaric; those who do them are barbarians; their cultures do not belong and must not be allowed to take root in a civilized place like Canada.


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## templeton peck (10 Aug 2009)

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> And to think you want to be a Member, and artillery at that.
> 
> I've said enough   : (gags)
> 
> ...



Very sorry to have an opinion different from yours downunder! I am getting the impression that an army.ca poster with a differing opinion from the rest of the herd has less freedom of speech than a woman Afghanistan, geez!


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## Fishbone Jones (10 Aug 2009)

templeton peck said:
			
		

> Very sorry to have an opinion different from yours downunder! I am getting the impression that an army.ca poster with a differing opinion from the rest of the herd has less freedom of speech than a woman Afghanistan, geez!



You can have any opinion you want as long as you can morally defend it. Please remember the site you are posting on, and be prepared to defend any post you make. Please also respect that this site is full of sheepdogs (you read that link didn't you?) and that we find it hard to abide with those that would sit on the sidelines and oppose our logic of protection.

Lastly, please don't demean those Afghan women, whom you refuse to acknowledge or defend, by comparing them to your own personal plight.


----------



## Michael OLeary (10 Aug 2009)

Since the topic under discussion has devolved into trading of insults between members, this thread is locked.  It may be reopened by staff for the addition of factual content based on the original news story.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## Eye In The Sky (29 Jan 2012)

Article Link

*Shafia jury finds all guilty*

A Montreal couple and their son were all convicted Sunday of first-degree murder in the deaths of four family members.

Mohammad Shafia, his wife Tooba Yahya and their son Hamed had pleaded not guilty.

They were accused of killing Hamed's three sisters and their father's childless first wife in a polygamous marriage.

The bodies of Zainab, 19, Sahar, 17, and Geeti Shafia, 13, along with Rona Mohammad Amir, 50, were found dead in the family’s Nissan, submerged in the Rideau Canal on June 30, 2009.

The verdict came after about 15 hours of deliberations, less than 48 hours after they were first charged by the judge in the case, Justice Robert Maranger.

They were each handed an automatic life sentence with no chance of parole for 25 years.

'Twisted notion of honour'
Meranger said it is difficult to imagine a more "heinous crime" than two parents convicted of killing three of their own daughters for "an apparent notion of honour that has absolutely no place in any civilized society."

"The apparent reason behind these cold shameful murders was that four (victims) offended your twisted notion of honour," the judge said.

Each of the Shafia family members addressed the court, denying their invovlment. Hamed said in English, "I did not drown my sisters anywhere, while Yahya said "I am not a murderer." Her husband echoed that, with "I did not commit any murder."

One of the female jurors started crying after the verdict was read, wiping her eyes. Hamed grabbed a hold of the prisoners' box for support, his parents rubbing his back as each juror affirmed that guilt was their verdict.

To return that verdict of first-degree murder, the jury had to be satisfied with six elements beyond a reasonable doubt including, that the accused caused the death of the victims, the accused caused the deaths unlawfully, the accused had the state of mind required for to commit murder and that the murders were planned and deliberate.

Three-month trial
During the nearly three-month-long trial, the Crown maintained the family road trip was part of a plot to kill the four because they had tainted the family’s honour. The Crown alleged the family's patriarch was upset that his two eldest daughters wanted boyfriends, betraying his traditional Afghan values.

The Shafias moved to Canada in 2007. They fled their native Afghanistan more than 15 years earlier and had lived in Dubai and Australia before moving the family to Montreal and applied for citizenship.

At the time of the deaths, they were all permanent residents, except for Amir Amir who had only a visitors’ visa.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (29 Jan 2012)

Folks, 
lets start this topic off right. I'm sure we can all agree on what should be done to these folks but this is not a forum for vengeance or just for spouting off hatred.

If there is to be a discussion, then it will be about the TOPIC.

Bruce
Staff


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## SevenSixTwo (29 Jan 2012)

I don't particularily like talking about court trials/decision etc because no matter what on a forum:

No one knows the true facts and evidence of the trial

People come up with their own assumptions and theories

People disagree or agree with outcomes of trials without interior knowledge of the trial


I am not talking about just this court case but all of them.

That's why I am steering clear.


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## Fishbone Jones (29 Jan 2012)

The jury got it right. Guilty of Honour Killings *First Degree Murder*


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## OldSolduer (29 Jan 2012)

Justice has been done.

Our job is to educate Canadians that this crime will not be tolerated.


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## GAP (29 Jan 2012)

Now for the much larger problem...................losing the attitude that "women are property"............That's a far, far larger problem than honor killings....


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## OldSolduer (29 Jan 2012)

GAP said:
			
		

> Now for the much larger problem...................losing the attitude that "women are property"............That's a far, far larger problem than honor killings....



Agreed. Start with mandatory citizenship classes for all immigrants and some Canadians.


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## ModlrMike (29 Jan 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Agreed. Start with mandatory citizenship classes for all immigrants and some Canadians.



Add mandatory language classes to that.


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## GeorgeD (29 Jan 2012)

Would any of that change their ideas,culture and beliefs?


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## OldSolduer (29 Jan 2012)

GD said:
			
		

> Would any of that change their ideas,culture and beliefs?



Maybe not right away, but over a generation...


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## jollyjacktar (30 Jan 2012)

I'm very happy to see the jury was not suckered into the BS realm the defence was trying to weave.  It's a good verdict and hopefully will send a message to those others out there who have an evil twisted idea of what honour is all about.  I do wonder how the general population inside will warm to them all.  And kudos to all the good work done by the police, crowns and everyone else who made this case successful.


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## OldSolduer (30 Jan 2012)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> .  I do wonder how the general population inside will warm to them all.




They are pariahs already I am guessing. I imagine they are already in protective custody, and most likely  (If I were the Superintendent of the jail they were in) on a suicide watch.
My  :2c: minus GST.


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## Pieman (30 Jan 2012)

> I don't particularily like talking about court trials/decision etc because no matter what on a forum:
> 
> No one knows the true facts and evidence of the trial
> 
> ...



I totally agree there. I am glad that there is a jury there to make these decisions. I have been watching the case on news, and could not decide from what I read one way or the other. My gut kept telling me that something did not add up on either side of the case. I just have to trust that the jury came to the right decision.


----------



## ttlbmg (30 Jan 2012)

I found it very interesting last night, as I was watching the news, they had an interview with a member of the Muslim Association of Canada, and her response to the idea of honor killings and Islam. She thought that immigrants coming into Canada should learn Canadian culture and should adapt to Canadian ways. Her contention was that those who did not want to conform or accept the "Canadian" Muslim, then they should "go back to the country they came from." These ideas are not that of Islamic faith, but of barbarians and old world thinkers. I thought it was interesting to hear such a strong opinion from someone of the Muslim culture explaining this. I guess there comes a time when you get sick of these people representing you in the world. One can only hope that something positive can come out of this tragedy, rather than the rest of the country and world simply chalking it up to "the Muslims" again.


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## Edward Campbell (30 Jan 2012)

There is *nothing* inherently _Muslim_ about honour killings; they are a problem in several different religions - including some parts of Christendom. They, honour killings, are a purely cultural phenomenon and, as such, they are problematical throughout Northern Africa, the Middle East, and West and South Asia,including India. Where there are large migrant populations from those regions they are also problems for the new host nations, like Australia, Britain and Canada.


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## The Bread Guy (30 Jan 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> They are pariahs already I am guessing. I imagine they are already in protective custody, and most likely  (If I were the Superintendent of the jail they were in) on a suicide watch.
> My  :2c: minus GST.


One hopes, but I was listening to a CBC Radio call-in on this today, and one gentleman who helps folks dealing with such situations says he's taken calls from men, senior professionals in this country, who mainly feel pressure from others within their community to "take care" of such honour issues.


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## Strike (30 Jan 2012)

Pieman said:
			
		

> I totally agree there. I am glad that there is a jury there to make these decisions. I have been watching the case on news, and could not decide from what I read one way or the other. My gut kept telling me that something did not add up on either side of the case. I just have to trust that the jury came to the right decision.



That probably comes from being so used to people being caught outright in the act or our exposure to Law & Order-type shows where the prosecution is able to find that 1 piece of evidence that will convict the accused without a doubt.

In this case it was a matter of a bunch of little things that, alone, caused the gut feeling but, together, added to the jury finding the accused guilty.

Needless to say, this will probably end up being a made-for-tv movie some time in the near future.


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## Diamondwillow (30 Jan 2012)

Thought this was an interesting *meaty* article.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/canada/Blatchford+heart+Shafia+trial+very+notion+what+girl/6069603/story.html


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## a_majoor (30 Jan 2012)

And I hope the term "Honour killing" is forever struck from the vocabulary; this is one of the sickest and most cowardly crimes imaginable.

Update:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?action=post;msg=1109767;topic=87856.50



> *Shafia lawyers expected to appeal murder conviction*
> 
> CTVNews.ca Staff
> 
> ...



Not one of their relatives stood for these girls and their mother? How sad indeed...


----------



## The Bread Guy (31 Jan 2012)

Niiiiiiiiiiiiice....


> In the weeks before he helped kill his sisters and his father's first wife, someone had used Hamed Shafia's laptop for an online search.
> 
> That person wanted to know: "can a prisoner have control over their real estate?"
> 
> ...


The Canadian Press, 30 Jan 12


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## Jarnhamar (31 Jan 2012)

What exactly happens during an appeal?

Does it end up costing the tax payers even more money?

10 weeks for a trial seems long to me.

If this happens in Canada imagine what women go through in Afghanistan.


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## GAP (31 Jan 2012)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> What exactly happens during an appeal?
> 
> Does it end up costing the tax payers even more money?
> 
> ...


this    

30 January 2012 
Afghan woman is killed 'for giving birth to a girl'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16787534


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## jollyjacktar (31 Jan 2012)

GAP said:
			
		

> this
> 
> 30 January 2012
> Afghan woman is killed 'for giving birth to a girl'
> ...



Yeah, disgusting eh?  I read the same story at the Daily Mail site.  My mind boggles at the barbarity of some people.  If you can even call them people, acting this way...


----------



## Jarnhamar (31 Jan 2012)

What a disgusting cultural mindset.


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## Diamondwillow (31 Jan 2012)

So the male (sorry - that creature cannot be given the honoured title of being called a *man*) kills the woman who produced a girl.. even though its HIS sperm that makes the choice of male/female -I'm sincerely gobsmacked ...  is this culture that uneducated? (I'm doubting it but I'm unfamiliar with the culture) ... hmmm... Maybe since his *male* sperm is so  *slow and weak* compared to the *female* sperm he creates, he should be the one removed from the gene pool... lord have mercy.   The term barbaric is too kind - and the science tosses their beliefs on it's ear.


----------



## GAP (31 Jan 2012)

Christie Blatchford: Startling revelations from relatives as Shafia trial jury deliberates
Christie Blatchford  Jan 28, 2012
Article Link

KINGSTON, Ont. — One of Tooba Mohammad Yahya’s sisters and her husband fully endorse the notion of honour-killing. The startling revelation is contained in a Saturday story in Montreal’s La Presse, written by columnist Michele Ouimet, who interviewed the couple in Kabul two months ago.

As news of the story rocketed about the near-empty Kingston courthouse where jurors in the notorious Shafia murder trial are deliberating, the jurors were completing their first full day of work. They retired late Friday, and have now spent 11 hours in their jury room. They are sequestered, always accompanied by two court constables, kept away from radio, TV, newspaper and web reports of any kind and stay overnight as a group at a local hotel.

Ouimet’s front-page story was headlined: “Perdre filles, et avoir péché trois fois”, a quote from Yahya herself. It translates in English as, “to lose three daughters and have sinned three times.”

The reporter had facilitated a call between the two long-lost sisters, and when Soraya said she hoped she’d soon be out of jail, Yahya told her, “Yes my sister, there are problems. To lose three daughters and have sinned three times.”

Asked directly if she would kill for honour, Soraya replied yes, and said if the deed was sufficiently odious, the punishment is elimination. Her husband Habibullah, who was sitting in a corner and not participating in the women’s discussion, at the mention of honour piped up. If his daughters — the couple has seven, and two boys — dishonoured his family, he wouldn’t hesitate, he told Ouimet.

“I would put them in a bag and eliminate them so no one would ever find their traces in Afghanistan,” he said.

Ouimet noted that some of the daughters were present, and quiet, when their father said that.

The scenario fits in squarely with what the prosecution’s so-called cultural expert, Dr. Shahrzad Mojab, testified to at trial. ”There’s no serious debate about the phenomenon (of honour-killing), but on its forms, how to name it and how to deal with it,” she told the jurors.
More on link


----------



## The Bread Guy (31 Jan 2012)

Diamondwillow said:
			
		

> So the male (sorry - that creature cannot be given the honoured title of being called a *man*) kills the woman who produced a girl.. even though its HIS sperm that makes the choice of male/female -I'm sincerely gobsmacked ...  is this culture that uneducated? (I'm doubting it but I'm unfamiliar with the culture) ... hmmm... Maybe since his *male* sperm is so  *slow and weak* compared to the *female* sperm he creates, he should be the one removed from the gene pool... lord have mercy.   The term barbaric is too kind - and the science tosses their beliefs on it's ear.


Such subtlety is lost on some....



			
				GAP said:
			
		

> Christie Blatchford: Startling revelations from relatives as Shafia trial jury deliberates
> Christie Blatchford  Jan 28, 2012
> Article Link
> 
> KINGSTON, Ont. — One of Tooba Mohammad Yahya’s sisters and her husband fully endorse the notion of honour-killing. The startling revelation is contained in a Saturday story in Montreal’s La Presse, written by columnist Michele Ouimet, who interviewed the couple in Kabul two months ago ....


As much as I'm a fan of Christie for her coverage of (and support for) the troops, this should not be a "startling revelation":  "Some Afghans in Afghanistan endorse honour killings" is hardly an above-the-fold headline in Afghanistan, so we shouldn't be too surprised.

Still, sad, sick story all around.....


----------



## Strike (31 Jan 2012)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> As much as I'm a fan of Christie for her coverage of (and support for) the troops, this should not be a "startling revelation":  "Some Afghans in Afghanistan endorse honour killings" is hardly an above-the-fold headline in Afghanistan, so we shouldn't be too surprised.



I would not doubt it if she wrote that headline toungue-in-cheek.


----------



## jollyjacktar (31 Jan 2012)

It's funny.  I listened to her being interviewed on the radio yesterday afternoon on the drive home.  She said that she did speak with a male member of the woman's family, an Uncle I believe.  She asked him about the thought of honour killing one of the girls for being with a man of Pakistani origins, if that was OK with him.  She said, that he said, "No, he had a daughter who recently (last month or so) married a man of Pakistani origins and he was OK with that."  So it would appear as if there is at least one relative who does not sing the same sick song, at least publicly.


----------



## The Bread Guy (31 Jan 2012)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> It's funny.  I listened to her being interviewed on the radio yesterday afternoon on the drive home.  She said that she did speak with a male member of the woman's family, an Uncle I believe.  She asked him about the thought of honour killing one of the girls for being with a man of Pakistani origins, if that was OK with him.  She said, that he said, "No, he had a daughter who recently (last month or so) married a man of Pakistani origins and he was OK with that."  So it would appear as if there is at least one relative who does not sing the same sick song, at least publicly.


Interesting how _this_ tidbit didn't come up in her column - I guess there wasn't room.  Thanks for sharing that.



			
				Grimaldus said:
			
		

> What exactly happens during an appeal?
> 
> Does it end up costing the tax payers even more money? ....


We're going to find out shortly.....


> Hamed Shafia's lawyer has filed a notice to appeal his first-degree murder conviction in the deaths of four family members, the lawyer confirmed Tuesday.
> 
> The 21-year-old and his parents — Mohammad Shafia, 58, his wife Tooba Mohammad Yahya, 42 — were convicted on Sunday of the first-degree murder of Shafia's three teenage daughters and his first wife.
> 
> ...


Postmedia News, 31 Jan 12

Also, from the same source, this from AFG's embassy in Ottawa:


> .... the Embassy of Afghanistan in Ottawa issued a statement on the Shafia verdicts.
> 
> "The Embassy of Afghanistan in Ottawa condemns the horrific death of four innocent women in Kingston, Ontario, with the strongest terms possible. The killing of Rona Amir Mohammed, Zainab Shafia, Sahar Shafia and Geeti Shafia, which accrued in summer 2009, were a heinous crime against humanity," the statement said.
> 
> "This kind of crime is neither part of Afghan culture nor Islamic culture, and it is not acceptable in any ways. There is nothing honorable, about violence against anyone especially against innocent women. Honor killing is unacceptable in Afghanistan constitution and its justice system." ....


Still no such statement on the embassy's web page - will share once it pops up.


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## jollyjacktar (31 Jan 2012)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Interesting how _this_ tidbit didn't come up in her column - I guess there wasn't room.  Thanks for sharing that.
> We're going to find out shortly.....Postmedia News, 31 Jan 12


She also called all three murders bald faces liars with absolutely no honour whatsoever, who could not tell the truth and lied their pants off from the start to finish.  She had only scorn and derision for all three.  Bravo Christie for telling it like it is.


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## Strike (31 Jan 2012)

I found her writing pretty entertaining.  I would read the basic articles and then go on to hers to try to get a feel of how things were going during the trial.  Had some friends that were able to attend a couple days at a time and they all pretty much said that what she wrote was how things unroled during the trial.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (31 Jan 2012)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> What a disgusting cultural mindset.



The North American man who beats his wife is exactly the same slimy beast................

This is about having power over someone, it's not given up easy.  It took a rather large loss of life and property before the South decided to cede their power over slaves, and I'm sure even today I could find folks who would take those days back in a heartbeat.  They would be in no way indicative of ' a cultural mindset".


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## Retired AF Guy (31 Jan 2012)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> What exactly happens during an appeal?



The Readers Digest Condensed version: 

 How to Process an Indictable Appeal 



> Does it end up costing the tax payers even more money?



Yep!



> 10 weeks for a trial seems long to me.



Ahhh, the "_Law and Order/ CSI Effect!_ Remember, that there was no "direct smoking gun" that implicated the Shafia's. Instead it was a multitude of bits and pieces of evidence from different jurisdictions that had to be presented in at least three different languages. And speaking of the "CSI Effect," when the forensic witness was asked as to the exact causes of death, he (figuratively) shrugged his shoulders and said I don't know. Kudo's to the jury for ignoring this phenomena and sticking with the actual evidence.


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## The Bread Guy (3 Nov 2016)

Bumped after a while with the latest - still guests of the state for some time to come ...


> The Ontario Court of Appeal has dismissed a request for a new trial for a Montreal couple and their son who were convicted of first-degree murder in the so-called honour killings of four female family members in 2009.
> 
> "Charitably put, the evidence of guilt was overwhelming," Justice David Watt wrote in the decision released Wednesday, and co-signed by two other Court of Appeal justices.
> 
> Mohammad Shafia, his wife Tooba Yahya and their son Hamed launched an appeal earlier this year. After their convictions in January 2012, each had received automatic life sentence with no chance of parole for 25 years ...


Appeal court decision attached.


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## jollyjacktar (3 Nov 2016)

I'm glad they didn't get their appeal granted.  If it were up to me they'd foot the bill for the appeal and be booted out of the country when their sentences were completed too.


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## jollyjacktar (13 Apr 2017)

And once again, it's Justice 1 - Barbarians 0 as the Supreme Court declines to hear the appeal of the youngest Barbarian.   

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/shafia-supreme-court-1.4069068


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## ModlrMike (13 Apr 2017)

Good. Let them rot in jail.


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## GAP (13 Apr 2017)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Good. Let them rot in jail.



 :ditto:


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