# Retired Soldier Who Died Christmas Day Committed Suicide, Husband Contends



## Bruce Monkhouse (9 Jan 2014)

This is the kind of story that makes you go 'hmmmmmm'.
Of course a large part of me is just screamin' mad that, if true, she would have had no qualms about taking others with her.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Retired+soldier+died+Christmas+committed+suicide+husband/9365613/story.html

TORONTO - The husband of a former member of the Canadian Armed Forces who died in a head-on collision in Alberta on Christmas Day says his wife’s death was a suicide.

Tom MacEachern told CTV News his 51-year-old wife, retired corporal Leona MacEachern, was being treated for post traumatic stress disorder and had been allowed to leave a treatment facility for Christmas.

He said in a written statement that the 20-year Forces veteran intentionally drove her car into an oncoming transport truck on the Trans-Canada highway near Calgary. Two people in the tractor-trailer were not seriously hurt.

Tom MacEachern said his wife left a note for the family and that her death was a “final desperate act” as a result of “protracted battles” with Veterans Affairs over medical benefits for dental work she received in the late 1980s, while stationed in Germany during the First Gulf War.

CTV says government sources confirmed to the network that another soldier committed suicide last week at Alberta’s CFB Suffield. It provided no details.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (9 Jan 2014)

More.
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/final-desperate-act-husband-reveals-details-of-another-canadian-soldier-s-suicide-1.1630129


----------



## McG (9 Jan 2014)

Looks like more bad news:


> Four other Canadian soldiers died from apparent suicides in the past six weeks.


http://www.ottawacitizen.com/entertainment/More+Canadian+military+suicides+feared+recent+weeks/9365597/story.html


----------



## Journeyman (9 Jan 2014)

MCG said:
			
		

> Looks like more bad news:http://www.ottawacitizen.com/entertainment/More+Canadian+military+suicides+feared+recent+weeks/9365597/story.html


Seriously?!  The Ottawa Citizen put this article in the "Arts and Entertainment" section?!  :not-again:


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (9 Jan 2014)

Found this link at the bottom of MCG's article.
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/2266.0

EDIT: same last name, different person


----------



## Journeyman (9 Jan 2014)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Found this link at the bottom of MCG's article.
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/2266.0


Yes Bruce, good marketing for the site, but nonetheless, I don't think the _Citizen_ should have posted it under "Arts"


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (9 Jan 2014)

I wasn't responding to your post my friend,......I saw the link on thier site and when I clicked I saw the same name and made an assumption that it was the same person.
My bad.......


EDIT: ..and I left a comment there in regards to your point.


----------



## Journeyman (9 Jan 2014)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> EDIT: ..and I left a comment there in regards to your point.


Thanks much. Being a non-Facebook Luddite, I had no option to comment...other than to email the owner directly  :nod:

ps - nice pic with your comment by the way    >


----------



## jeffb (9 Jan 2014)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Seriously?!  The Ottawa Citizen put this article in the "Arts and Entertainment" section?!  :not-again:



And here's the email for the editor. Feel free to drop him an email about how insensitive this is. apotter@ottawacitizen.com


----------



## George Wallace (9 Jan 2014)

Well.  The author did make a few final points and link his article to this site:



> ........
> 
> • “We aren’t out to lay blame or criticize the individuals working in Veterans Affairs or the health care system. These people are suffering too, trying to make the most with their ever dwindling resources. Too many bad decisions are being made by disconnected politicians and unaccountable mandarins at both federal and provincial levels.”
> 
> ...


----------



## McG (9 Jan 2014)

It seems the article can be addressed through every section of the site:

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/sports/More+Canadian+military+suicides+feared+recent+weeks/9365597/story.html
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/More+Canadian+military+suicides+feared+recent+weeks/9365597/story.html

I note that the link I followed has been fixed on the home page (it now goes through the news section).  We can probably get back to the actual topic now.


----------



## Bzzliteyr (9 Jan 2014)

"We believe her PTSD symptoms manifested themselves as the result of some protracted battles with Veterans affairs to obtain medical benefits for issues arising from dental work in the late 1980s while stationed in Germany during the first Gulf War. Metals used in fashioning a quick replacement tooth (that were banned from use in Germany shortly after) she believed, had contributed to a confirmed diagnosis of geographic tongue. Other symptoms following the dental work included an increased sensitivity to smells, taste and frequent vomiting. There was also speculation that the high levels of air pollution in Lahr, Germany, may have contributed to her hyper-sensitivities. Conspiracy theorists suggest that soldiers in that conflict may have been injected with some kind of anti-chemical warfare agent that later manifested itself with PTSD-like symptoms. Some of her symptoms did bear a striking resemblance to what American soldiers in that conflict suffered as Gulf War Syndrome in the numbers approaching 300,000."

Am I the only one that finds the referencing to anything that has to do with the Gulf war a sort of misdirection? Like to garner more attention to the PTSD situation here?  Maybe I am just a big meanie.

Edit to add: her funeral was yesterday, some of the members from work attended.  RIP.

Read more: http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/full-statement-from-cpl-maceachern-s-husband-1.1630115#ixzz2pvzu9ocb


----------



## George Wallace (9 Jan 2014)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Am I the only one that finds the referencing to anything that has to do with the Gulf war a sort of misdirection? Like to garner more attention to the PTSD situation here?  Maybe I am just a big meanie.



I don't think you are being a meanie.  I think that anything to do with serving or former serving members of the CAF is automatically having a PTSD label added to it when the MSM start broadcasting their stories.  It seems to be their main storyline, per se.   On one hand it may be poor journalism; on the other, it may bring more focus onto the problems facing those with issues that are not getting the treatment they need.  There are Positives and Negatives to all of these stories.


----------



## Bzzliteyr (9 Jan 2014)

My quote is from the husband's statement. He is the one suggesting it was PTSD.


----------



## winnipegoo7 (10 Jan 2014)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> "We believe her PTSD symptoms manifested themselves as the result of some protracted battles with Veterans affairs to obtain medical benefits for issues arising from dental work *in the late 1980s while stationed in Germany during the first Gulf War*. Metals used in fashioning a quick replacement tooth (that were banned from use in Germany shortly after) she believed, had contributed to a confirmed diagnosis of geographic tongue. Other symptoms following the dental work included an increased sensitivity to smells, taste and frequent vomiting. There was also speculation that the high levels of air pollution in Lahr, Germany, may have contributed to her hyper-sensitivities. Conspiracy theorists suggest that soldiers in that conflict may have been injected with some kind of anti-chemical warfare agent that later manifested itself with PTSD-like symptoms. Some of her symptoms did bear a striking resemblance to what American soldiers in that conflict suffered as Gulf War Syndrome in the numbers approaching 300,000."
> 
> Am I the only one that finds the referencing to anything that has to do with the Gulf war a sort of misdirection? Like to garner more attention to the PTSD situation here?  Maybe I am just a big meanie.
> 
> ...



I'm surprised to learn that the Gulf War was fought in the "late 1980s."


----------



## PMedMoe (10 Jan 2014)

winnipegoo7 said:
			
		

> I'm surprised to learn that the Gulf War was fought in the "late 1980s."



The Iran-Iraq War, also known as the *First* Persian Gulf War was an armed conflict between the Islamic Republic of Iran and the Republic of Iraq lasting from September 1980 to August 1988.


----------



## Bzzliteyr (10 Jan 2014)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> The Iran-Iraq War, also known as the *First* Persian Gulf War was an armed conflict between the Islamic Republic of Iran and the Republic of Iraq lasting from September 1980 to August 1988.



With a side conflict in Germany?


----------



## PMedMoe (10 Jan 2014)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> With a side conflict in Germany?



The newspaper never said anything about Germany (or the CF) being involved.  I would imagine that overseas bases would have been on some kind of alert though.

I get what some of you are saying about PTSD for dental work or her never having been in  a "conflict" (is that necessary for development and/or diagnosis of PTSD?).  What about her having to leave the forces due to harassment?  I can see where the combination of that and the runaround from VAC might cause depression of some kind.  Just my  :2c:


----------



## Lightguns (10 Jan 2014)

My condolences to the family.  This news event is not helping the cause of PTSD treatment for veterans suffering from an OSI.  This individual did not have an OSI and did not serve anywhere that an OSI was possible.  Yes, PTSD is possible from any traumatic event in one's life dependent on the mental fitness of an individual but this event has nothing to do with the cause of veterans and OSI.  A lifetime mental illness also manifests itself later in life as changes to our older bodies can make it hard to stay on an emotional even keel.  

I see no mention of a note left to family and friends, nothing to indicate a suicide.  I tried to get some information on the incident of harassment, indeed and could not find any.  My memory serves that some allegations were proved but the individual went on to serve and retired successfully under the 20/40 program.  I also remember at the time W5 doing a story on the dental filllings material in question and that the evidence was not conclusive.

Indeed, there is no evidence that this auto accident is self inflicted, this may well be a distracted driver or a medication induced inattention.  I am sorry but this is tragedy for a family at Xmas and nothing more, no conspiracy of government, military, VA and/or the German Dental Guild.


----------



## Bzzliteyr (10 Jan 2014)

Moe, see the link of the staement by the woman's husband.

Also, in regards to her having to leave the forces due to harassment.  I understand that but "frustration" does not equal PTSD.  I feel PTSD is a buzzword that's now getting overused and we're attributing every suicide to it.

Remember when we barely spoke of suicides and some people would suggest it was a "coward's way out"? Now they make headlines.


Lightguns, one of the five steps of grief is anger, and I believe that is what the husband is expressing in his statement. I also believe he is using all the hyped up PTSD coverage to help with the attention.


----------



## PMedMoe (10 Jan 2014)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> My condolences to the family.  This news event is not helping the cause of PTSD treatment for veterans suffering from an OSI.  This individual did not have an OSI and did not serve anywhere that an OSI was possible.  Yes, PTSD is possible from any traumatic event in one's life dependent on the mental fitness of an individual but this event has nothing to do with the cause of veterans and OSI.  A lifetime mental illness also manifests itself later in life as changes to our older bodies can make it hard to stay on an emotional even keel.



No where in the article did it say she was suffering from an OSI, only PTSD. 



			
				Lightguns said:
			
		

> I see no mention of a note left to family and friends, nothing to indicate a suicide.



Right from the news article:



> MacEachern, who suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder, had left a note for her family.





			
				Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Also, in regards to her having to leave the forces due to harassment.  I understand that but "frustration" does not equal PTSD.



You equate harassment with "frustration"?  Seriously?



			
				Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> I feel PTSD is a buzzword that's now getting overused and we're attributing every suicide to it.



I agree.  I also agree it seems that her spouse is pushing an agenda.


----------



## Bzzliteyr (10 Jan 2014)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> You equate harassment with "frustration"?  Seriously?



Maybe I misworded what I was trying to say. I feel people are using PTSD to write off suicides.  If I'm angry with the military (ie, was forced to leave the forces due to harrassment) and then subsequently kill myself, is it PTSD? No. it's me killing myself because of the situation. 

I'm actually having a hard time expressing what I mean, I hope you understand.


----------



## PMedMoe (10 Jan 2014)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> I'm actually having a hard time expressing what I mean, I hope you understand.



Yes, I do.


----------



## Danjanou (10 Jan 2014)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> The newspaper never said anything about Germany (or the CF) being involved.  I would imagine that overseas bases would have been on some kind of alert though.



I was in Baden In September 1980 and if I remember correctly we went on a higher level of alert, with all the reulting fun and games involved. There was also a couple of shite disturbers in Poland  (a Cardinal and a Union type) making the Soviets a bit antsy that month too. Lot of fun interfering with the normal post Reforger drills of clena kit  and leave.

Re the auto branding of all these cases by the MSN with PTSD I agree. I'm sure in some instances it is something else. There are varius types and forms of depression and other mental health issues that if left undiagnosed or untreated could and have lead to suicide. If memory serves wasn't one of the suicides prior to Christmas a young recently enrolled soldier still in trainiing with no deployments. While it is possible he could have developed PTSD from some where ( accident etc.) most likely this may have been a case of something else.

One of the problems with mental health issues is they often are not as easy to immedialty recognize and therefore treat. A broken leg easy to notice, a broken mind or soul not so. Toss in the stigma still associate dwith this tyoe of illness, especially so in the military, altough not as bad as in my day thankfully ("Ah you're sad buttercup, I don't care , buck ruck up and carry on")  and many will continue to suffer in silence.

End of the day we have lost one of our own and should mourn that. Could it have been prevented, who knows? What was the reason, does it matter except in the instance that we may be able to rpevent the next one? I'll mourn her and at least draw some small comfort that her pain has ended.


----------



## Journeyman (10 Jan 2014)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> I'm actually having a hard time expressing what I mean, I hope you understand.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think we all do, but it's a slow day and we're content to watch you squirm.     op:


----------



## Bzzliteyr (10 Jan 2014)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> I'll mourn her and at least draw some small comfort that her pain has ended.



Ditto.


----------



## winnipegoo7 (10 Jan 2014)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> The Iran-Iraq War, also known as the *First* Persian Gulf War was an armed conflict between the Islamic Republic of Iran and the Republic of Iraq lasting from September 1980 to August 1988.



The article doesn't say "First *Persian* Gulf War." So either the author got the name of the war wrong or got the dates wrong I guess.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (11 Jan 2014)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> My condolences to the family.  This news event is not helping the cause of PTSD treatment for veterans suffering from an OSI.  This individual did not have an OSI and did not serve anywhere that an OSI was possible.  Yes, PTSD is possible from any traumatic event in one's life dependent on the mental fitness of an individual but this event has nothing to do with the cause of veterans and OSI.  A lifetime mental illness also manifests itself later in life as changes to our older bodies can make it hard to stay on an emotional even keel.
> 
> I see no mention of a note left to family and friends, nothing to indicate a suicide.  I tried to get some information on the incident of harassment, indeed and could not find any.  My memory serves that some allegations were proved but the individual went on to serve and retired successfully under the 20/40 program.  I also remember at the time W5 doing a story on the dental filllings material in question and that the evidence was not conclusive.
> 
> Indeed, there is no evidence that this auto accident is self inflicted, this may well be a distracted driver or a medication induced inattention.  I am sorry but this is tragedy for a family at Xmas and nothing more, no conspiracy of government, military, VA and/or the German Dental Guild.



Please post your medical CV. Especially the parts that cover your psychological\ psychiatric expertise in the areas of PTSD, anxiety and depression. Scans of your diplomas in these areas would also be appreciated. I know Dr\ patient confidentiality bars you from talking about your sessions that led you to these determinations. 

Otherwise, sit back down in your easy chair and quit trying to Monday morning quarterback someone's mental\ medical condition.

If that's not plain enough for you, STFU about something you know nothing about. 

That goes for the rest of you that think you can come on here and determine what the causes and reasons are for the death of this person.

As to her husband's motives, ditto to the above.

This is a tragedy that has happened to one of our own. Leave it at that and have some feeling for the remaining family.

Accident or suicide, it doesn't matter. A cherished life has been lost. 

Quit making a circus of it.


----------



## OldSolduer (11 Jan 2014)

At this time I would like to extend our condolences to the family, friends and comrades.   

Its a difficult time.


----------



## Navy_Pete (29 Jan 2014)

Came across this today as a pretty shameful addendum to a sad story;

I think it's time to stop talking about reforming VAC and just let the motherf*cker burn, then start over from the ground up with an entirely new group of people.  I am appalled and saddened by the callous and automatic bureaucratic follow up, seems indicative of a completely broken system.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/after-veteran-s-death-government-demands-581-benefits-repayment-1.1660614



> After veteran's death, government demands $581 benefits repayment
> CTVNews.ca Staff
> Published Tuesday, January 28, 2014 10:03PM EST
> Last Updated Tuesday, January 28, 2014 11:18PM EST
> ...


----------



## Infanteer (29 Jan 2014)

Ahh....bureaucrats at their finest....


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (29 Jan 2014)

When people die the paperwork needs to be done,........gettin' sick of lots of folks who think the same rules don't apply because they served.


----------



## Jarnhamar (29 Jan 2014)

It's funny how fast VA seems to work when they want money, compared to when they owe it.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (29 Jan 2014)

Just like any part of the Govt. machine......


----------



## PPCLI Guy (29 Jan 2014)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> When people die the paperwork needs to be done,........gettin' sick of lots of folks who think the same rules don't apply because they served.



 :goodpost:

Amen brother.  We are not nearly as special as we like to think - and we are pissing away the credibility that 10 years of war and too many dead and injured has afforded us.


----------



## jollyjacktar (29 Jan 2014)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> When people die the paperwork needs to be done,........gettin' sick of lots of folks who think the same rules don't apply because they served.



Maybe so, but... I am tired of the faceless f-sticks being so damn heartless or seemingly so.  How's about a bit of compassion.  Regardless of whom they were, would it really kill the system to maybe let (any family) have the month's benefits before cutting them off.  Clawing back seems petty, bullying and beneath what should be.  FFS, it's not like anyone's making Bill Gates kind of wages over a portion of ANY month?  I think not.

Justice doesn't just need to be done it needs to be seen to be done and the optics in any case like this are bad.  I don't give a damn who you are, what you've done or where you've been or not.  Beancounting apparatchiks don't need to be douche bags all of the time.  As a taxpayer, I am happy for my 5 cents or portion thereof being used towards the total amount of funds distributed to the bank account of a fellow citizen who died that month.  There's more than $500+ dollars of negative press generated by DVA with moves like this, and frankly Fantino and Co (or any Party/Dept) can't afford it.  Backpeddling as they've done is shutting the barn door after the horse has vacated the premisis.  Looks like it tastes on the tongue.  Shittty...


----------



## Teager (29 Jan 2014)

I don't think the husband was disputing the payment I think he was more in shock at the speed of the letter. I think having someone call personally and explain the situation would have been a better method. That and maybe give a bit of time as obviously emotions are still running high. There are better ways of dealing with situations like this.

Just because there are policy's in place doesn't always make them right. The system is broken in places and those places have been identified with proper fixes. Whether or not those fixes are put in place remains to be unseen.


----------



## George Wallace (29 Jan 2014)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Maybe so, but... I am tired of the faceless f-sticks being so damn heartless or seemingly so.  How's about a bit of compassion.  Regardless of whom they were, would it really kill the system to maybe let (any family) have the month's benefits before cutting them off.  Clawing back seems petty, bullying and beneath what should be.  FFS, it's not like anyone's making Bill Gates kind of wages over a portion of ANY month?  I think not.
> 
> Justice doesn't just need to be done it needs to be seen to be done and the optics in any case like this are bad.  I don't give a damn who you are, what you've done or where you've been or not.  Beancounting apparatchiks don't need to be douche bags all of the time.  As a taxpayer, I am happy for my 5 cents or portion thereof being used towards the total amount of funds distributed to the bank account of a fellow citizen who died that month.  There's more than $500+ dollars of negative press generated by DVA with moves like this, and frankly Fantino and Co (or any Party/Dept) can't afford it.  Backpeddling as they've done is shutting the barn door after the horse has vacated the premisis.  Looks like it tastes on the tongue.  Shittty...



Let's get real here.  It was a poorly handled situation.  It should not have been one letter offering condolences and the stating that they were recouping the payment made after her death.  It should have been at the very least, two letters with an appropriate amount of time in between mailings.  Was it wrong to recoup the payment?  No.  It was bad taste in the way it was done.  

This whole affair, however, places the plight of Veteran's in a poor light, as it comes off as "whining" about a perceived wrong.  It detracts from the more serious legitimate complaints of Veterans.


----------



## Navy_Pete (29 Jan 2014)

They've also probably now burned through 10s of thousands in staff time between the paperwork, briefing notes up to the minister, PA folks etc.

Someone should have taken a sanity check and just written off the overpayment.  There is some discretion in the TBS guidlines and pretty sure if they have gone up the chain with that may have gotten signed off.  At the very least they could have gotten approval for delaying the recovery.


----------



## Pusser (30 Jan 2014)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> Someone should have taken a sanity check and just written off the overpayment.  There is some discretion in the TBS guidlines and pretty sure if they have gone up the chain with that may have gotten signed off.  At the very least they could have gotten approval for delaying the recovery.



No.  The Financial Administration Act (FAA) is pretty clear - all attempts must be made to recover overpayments.  Only after all attempts have been made, can an overpayment be declared unrecoverable and then written-off.  And it must be truly unrecoverable.  Simply dying does not make an amount unrecoverable (the country becomes a creditor with a claim on the estate).  It is also worth noting that even if something is written-off, it can still be recovered at a later date should circumstances change.  In short, the bureaucrats were doing their job.  Could they have done it differently and, therfore, perhaps better?  Probably, but that does not negate the fact that by law, the money still had to be recovered and VAC was obligated to try and do so.  Now we have a situation where a Minister has publicly stated that the payment will now be forgiven.  He doesn't actually have the authority to do this.  Only Treasury Board does.  I don't know if the Minister of Veterans' Affairs is even a member of Treasury Board, but even if he was, he would have to recuse himself from this discussion.  What will happen now is that TB will retroactively approve the write-off, so as not to embarrass the Minister/Government.  Not exactly the best way to do things.

For the opposition parties to now lambaste VAC and the Government over this is disingenuous politicking.  As I said before, the LAW is quite clear and ALL Members of Parliament are responsible for the law of the land.  Should the rules be changed?  Probably, because as they stand, the FAA is quite inflexible and there should be a few changes.  Other amendments are probably in order to prevent a situation like this repeating itself.  There are CF regulations that state certain benefits only cease at the end of a month where a change occurs, so Parliament can probably amend the appropriate legislation to do something similar here.  Now we just need the political will and all parties to be on board.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (30 Jan 2014)

You can argue the legalities and whether it was right or wrong all day long.

None of that matters in this situation.

It's the optics and the public perception that count in this case.

It's up to the media and the Opposition to decide how far they want to ride this.


----------



## Pusser (30 Jan 2014)

recceguy said:
			
		

> You can argue the legalities and whether it was right or wrong all day long.
> 
> None of that matters in this situation.
> 
> ...



It's easy to criticize "legalities" when you're not the one charged with executing them.  I never once said that what happened was morally right.  I was only explaining why it happened.  I stand by my comments on the opposition politicians and their political grandstanding


----------



## Edward Campbell (30 Jan 2014)

In so far as regulations go, and all that, I'm with Pusser, the bureaucrats did the "right thing" but the execution was poor, to say the least; but I would say that the regulations don't need changing: public money which is paid out when it is not due should be recovered.

I agree with recceguy that the media and opposition politicians can, until they find something new, use this as a club to bash the government for being cruel and niggardly towards veterans.

(Parenthetically: I'm not overly surprised that this entirely preventable bungle occurred. I had periodic, thankfully infrequent, dealings with DVA, as it was then, over many years. My _impression_ was that it was a "low quality" bureaucracy ~ compared with, say, Industry Canada or Treasury Board or the crème de la crème at Finance and PCO; moving most of it from the National Capital to PEI did not improve the quality, nor did, occasional changes of DMs. I know there were some good, even excellent people in DVA ~ but I suspect they mostly spent their days reading the job posters, looking for lateral moves to 'real' departments.)


----------



## Edward Campbell (30 Jan 2014)

And _Gable_ in the _Globe and Mail_ gets it:






Source: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/a-celebration-of-the-joyous-human-spirit/article16130567/#dashboard/follows/
Reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_


----------



## Fishbone Jones (30 Jan 2014)

Pusser said:
			
		

> It's easy to criticize "legalities" when you're not the one charged with executing them.  I never once said that what happened was morally right.  I was only explaining why it happened.  I stand by my comments on the opposition politicians and their political grandstanding



You missed my point entirely.


----------



## Navy_Pete (31 Jan 2014)

You may want to actually read the FAA (uses may recover any overpayment vice shall), but here is some TB guidance on the para;

http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/hr-rh/in-ai/2011/1216-eng.asp

The recovery is *discretionary*, but normally done off the first pay.  As they have six years to recover the money, they may want to institute a standard delay to recover any overpayment from someones estate.  Also, they may want to write off an amount below a certain threshold where costs more to oversee the recovery overpayment rather then running through the hoops for something to have it actually cost the taxpayers money (ie cost $1k of time to recover $500).

The point is this was poorly handled, and included in a condolence letter a few weeks after the members death, for a fairly trivial amount (maybe a days worth of work?).  Doing the 'right thing' can mean meeting the intent of the law as well as the wording; there is nothing saying they can't delay the sending of letters for a reasonable time, nor would any reasonable person have an issue with a delay (3 months?) before starting the recovery process after a death.


----------



## George Wallace (31 Jan 2014)

I think that I would find it an insult if they waited six or X years before doing a clawback.


----------



## Pusser (31 Jan 2014)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> You may want to actually read the FAA (uses may recover any overpayment vice shall), but here is some TB guidance on the para;
> 
> http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/hr-rh/in-ai/2011/1216-eng.asp
> 
> ...



I have read the FAA.  Many times in fact.  The bulletin you are quoting is not the FAA, but rather guidance on how to apply it.  Nothing in this bulletin contradicts what I have said.  Yes, recovery is discretionary, but only in the sense that *Treasury Board * has the authority to write off debt (but no one in VAC, including the Minister does).  Note that the bulletin says, "An attempt to recover the overpayment needs to be made in all cases."  I know from direct experience in this area that write off rarely happens and the justification required is considerable.   There really has to be no asset of any sort from which to recover the funds.

Having said that, I agree that this was handled very badly.  They could have waited and I think combining a recovery letter with a condolence letter was in particularly poor taste.


----------



## OldSolduer (1 Feb 2014)

The law needs to be changed then.


----------



## Edward Campbell (1 Feb 2014)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> The law needs to be changed then.




I don't agree. It is the SOP for writing _condolence_ versus _collection_ letters that needs to be either revised or, maybe, just followed.

People should not get payments from the government ~ your money, by the way ~ to which they are not entitled. Recovering overpayments is a normal procedure, and it is, also normally, handled briskly, efficiently and with a tiny bit of understanding. This should have been done better, but it should be done.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Feb 2014)

recceguy said:
			
		

> You can argue the legalities and whether it was right or wrong all day long.
> 
> None of that matters in this situation.
> 
> ...



For those that missed it the first time.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (3 Apr 2014)

Here we go again................I fight with my insurance company every year when I put in my orthotics claim. Now I'm not saying that it isn't a freakin' pain in the ass but I can't see me getting called into Ottawa to testify about how I've been "failed". This follows a trend I'm seeing that seems to be "I served, therefore I'm more special than others".
Yes it's a shame that a Mother would leave her child motherless in such a way but to blame that on Veteran's Affairs is absurd.


..and the highlighted parts confuse me.


http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/widower-of-canadian-soldier-says-it-s-his-duty-to-speak-out-about-wife-s-suicide-1.1758538


CTVNews.ca Staff 
 Published Wednesday, April 2, 2014 10:24PM EDT  
 Last Updated Wednesday, April 2, 2014 11:30PM EDT  


The husband of a Canadian soldier who died of suicide Christmas Day after battling Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder says it’s his “duty” to share his family’s ordeal so he can prevent it from happening to others.

In an interview with CTV News, Tom MacEachern spoke about his wife Cpl. Leona MacEachern’s death on an Alberta highway on Dec. 25, saying the government did little to help his wife before her death.

The grieving widower is scheduled to testify before a Veteran Affairs committee on Parliament Hill on Thursday.
“It’s my duty, I think, to tell them what went wrong,” MacEachern said Wednesday.
His retired 51-year-old wife was instantly killed Dec. 25 after she intentionally drove her car into an oncoming transport truck on the Trans-Canada highway near Calgary.

The crash was initially believed to be an accidental collision, but MacEachern publicly revealed in a letter days later that his wife, suffering from PTSD, had died of suicide. She left behind a nine-year-old daughter.

In the written statement, MacEachern called the collision a “final desperate act” of a soldier who had developed PTSD as a result of “protracted battles” with Veterans Affairs over medical benefits.
Four months after his wife’s death, MacEachern said his daughter knows “mom was sick” but doesn’t know exactly what happened to her.
MacEachern said his wife, who joined the military after high school, was ultimately abandoned by the Canadian government, with no specialized help for her PTSD, and little acknowledgement for her service.

“When she died, her military pension after 23 years of service was $172.05,” MacEachern said.
Adding insult to the tragedy, MacEachern received a letter from Veterans Affairs two days after his wife’s funeral, demanding repayment on a portion of her monthly disability cheque.

The letter expressed condolences to the family, and stated that the “overpayment of $581.67” was due because MacEachern did not live through the full month.
At the time, MacEachern called it a “slap in the face.”
In late January, Veterans Affairs Minister Julian Fantino said the decision to collect the money had been reversed.

“(The government) should really have more compassion when dealing with people,” MacEachern said Wednesday.
Leona MacEachern’s death followed a string of military suicides that has raised concerns about the treatment of troubled soldiers, veterans and families.
Four Canadian soldiers died from apparent suicides in late November and early December.

Last month, an Ontario woman received a one-cent cheque from the federal government for her son, a soldier who died of suicide in 2011.
Defence Minister Rob Nicholson later apologized for the cheque -- labelled as “release pay” – calling it an “insensitive bureaucratic screw-up.”

With a report by CTV News’ Omar Sachedina


----------



## Bzzliteyr (3 Apr 2014)

I'll be honest, I don't like the part where they state "His retired 51-year-old wife was instantly killed Dec. 25 after she intentionally drove her car into an oncoming transport truck on the Trans-Canada highway near Calgary"

They are basing that on this? "The crash was initially believed to be an accidental collision, but MacEachern publicly revealed in a letter days later that his wife, suffering from PTSD, had died of suicide. She left behind a nine-year-old daughter." So, he wasn't there.. how does he know that? I remember being first responder on a fatal motorcycle accident last summer in Calgary, a week or so later there was a memorial and I bumped into the father, he was told by the coroner that he couldn't be sure if his son had suffered or not.. I was there.. death was pretty much instantaneous. How did he get details that quickly? 

If there was no one in the vehicle and the only witness was the truck driver she ran into then how does the husband at home know? 

Also, I agree.. that's the fastest response from Veterans affairs in regards to a letter/cheque.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (3 Apr 2014)

I'm confused on the amounts he stated she received for a pension and what they should she owed back from 'half' a month.


----------



## PuckChaser (3 Apr 2014)

> “When she died, her military pension after 23 years of service was $172.05,” MacEachern said.
> Adding insult to the tragedy, MacEachern received a letter from Veterans Affairs two days after his wife’s funeral, demanding repayment on a portion of her monthly disability cheque.
> 
> The letter expressed condolences to the family, and stated that the “overpayment of $581.67” was due because MacEachern did not live through the full month.



Takes 6 months to a year to prove the CF injured you and get your money, but the claws are out right away if there's an overpayment. What a freaking joke.


----------



## PMedMoe (3 Apr 2014)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I'm confused on the amounts he stated she received for a pension and what they should she owed back from 'half' a month.



I'm thinking a typo and they've missed a "1".  A military pension of *$172.05* per month after 23 years of service?  Ummmm, no.....


----------



## xo31@711ret (3 Apr 2014)

thinking your right Moe; I retired a sgt medic after +24 in 06 with $1, 170 give or take


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (3 Apr 2014)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Takes 6 months to a year to prove the CF injured you and get your money, but the claws are out right away if there's an overpayment. What a freaking joke.



Apples and oranges and any adult would know this.........but oh yea, you're in the CF, where of course you're 'more special' than say a normal person who probably has to sue their employer to get a single red cent.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (3 Apr 2014)

....and thank you for the clarification on the pension.  It doesn't seem like a whole lot but I guess that's not bad from [ I'll assume from most] around your mid-fourties.


----------



## Teager (3 Apr 2014)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Apples and oranges and any adult would know this.........but oh yea, you're in the CF, where of course you're 'more special' than say a normal person who probably has to sue their employer to get a single red cent.



Oh you can sue your employer? Hmm something else a CAF member can't do. I'm sorry but in the civi world your also able to buy your own insurance aside from what your employer offers. In the CAF no insurance company will offer you any additional coverage in a war zone. Not to mention pay outs in the civi world are more than what VAC has been giving and this has been proven. Also I could start pulling news articles of civi people that have been injured and were treated unfairly or screwed over and went to the media and started to fight for something better. IMO this is no different so get over the "I'm more special" stuff.


----------



## Strike (3 Apr 2014)

I suspect he's talking medical pension.  Makes no sense that this would be a service pension.


----------



## PMedMoe (3 Apr 2014)

Strike said:
			
		

> I suspect he's talking medical pension.  Makes no sense that this would be a service pension.



If the pension is only $172 per month, how could they ask for $581 for half a month?  I still say typo.


----------



## Strike (3 Apr 2014)

Verbal error more than typo.  Just heard the interview and that's exactly what he said.


----------



## Bzzliteyr (4 Apr 2014)

Teager said:
			
		

> Oh you can sue your employer? Hmm something else a CAF member can't do. I'm sorry but in the civi world your also able to buy your own insurance aside from what your employer offers. In the CAF no insurance company will offer you any additional coverage in a war zone. Not to mention pay outs in the civi world are more than what VAC has been giving and this has been proven. Also I could start pulling news articles of civi people that have been injured and were treated unfairly or screwed over and went to the media and started to fight for something better. IMO this is no different so get over the "I'm more special" stuff.



TD Canada Trust will.


----------



## PuckChaser (4 Apr 2014)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Apples and oranges and any adult would know this.........but oh yea, you're in the CF, where of course you're 'more special' than say a normal person who probably has to sue their employer to get a single red cent.



Calm down the rhetoric here, buddy. You've got a union that you continually bang the drum for, use them and get yourself more benefits.  :facepalm:


----------

