# Recruit training discipline



## dannybou (27 May 2004)

After reading alot of posts in this forum, I was wandering what the difference is between discipline in basic training from 1980, when I went through, to now in 2004. In 1980, the swearing, yelling, harsh PT, pushups (25 to 50), manhandling and at times, although rarely, some hitting. Nothing was said back then as it was par for the course and part of the discipline process. Now I have heard and read that now the instructors are not supposed to yell and swear and something about cards?? Can someone set me straight please? Thanks


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## Bruce Monkhouse (27 May 2004)

Manhandling and hitting?? I‘m sorry dannybou, I went through in 1978 and I don‘t recall either of these.


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## AlphaCharlie (27 May 2004)

god ****! swearing is just as much a part of the army as uniforms are!


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## dannybou (28 May 2004)

> Originally posted by Bruce Monkhouse:
> [qb] Manhandling and hitting?? I‘m sorry dannybou, I went through in 1978 and I don‘t recall either of these. [/qb]


Well let me explain what I mean. Manhandling by the instructors when you would drop your FN on a parade square, when you would march like a yogy that kind of manhandling. Hitting?? Oh yes, was witness to a couple of incidents. When one recruit actually laughed when during an inspection, his recruit neighbour was having his day of having his kit thrown all over the floor. When the instructor saw that, he left that recruit to immediately go over to the laughing one and slapped him across the face. Like my post said, I mentionned it had happended on rare occasions.


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## MP 811 (28 May 2004)

Basic today is a joke.  You have infantry instructors who are not allowed to swear and its quite funny actually to see these guys try very hard to not use the odd word here and there when trying to sort out his troops.  As for the stress card, I have heard of it, but havent seen it.  Rumor has it that a recruit can flash this coloured card at an instructor and say that he‘s stressing him out.  The instructor then has to lay off the recruit for the day.  I stress this is a rumor though as recruits aren‘t given any "stress cards" at the beginning to BRT.


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## Redeye (28 May 2004)

That‘s an ancient rumour, and no such thing has ever existed in the CF.  It started as a concept for the US Army and made it north only as a rumour.  Technically, instructors aren‘t supposed to yell or swear - but it‘s not like anyone expects anything different.  So long as they don‘t "single anyone out" for rough treatment they‘re okay.  Usually the real bags become obvious to their fellow recruits who then would sort them out.  Any course I‘ve been on it‘s always worked that way.


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## Gayson (28 May 2004)

Instructors still scream and yell.

These days if they give you PT they have to do it as well.

Rules do get broken though.


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## 48Highlander (28 May 2004)

We‘re still allowed to swear goddamit.  The day I get told that I can‘t use bad words because that makes me a potty-mouth is the day I quit the army and join the Girl Guides.


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## PnkrWeb (30 May 2004)

well i heard that if the instructor  make u do pushup  the instructor need ot make them to with u same as for PT


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## Pikache (30 May 2004)

PnkrWeb said:
			
		

> well i heard that if the instructor   make u do pushup   the instructor need ot make them to with u same as for PT



And NCOs are not allowed to dispense push ups to the platoon for disciplinary purpose apparently.

Or am I wrong?


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## Fraser.g (30 May 2004)

Royal Highlander,

Only the CO or his apointed deputy can administer or oreder to be administered diciplineary action. An NCO can give out corrective training. The corrective training must fit the infraction. Push ups are not apropreate for being late for a class. They are for being unable to lift a load with your upper body like a secton of bridge or other engineering equiptment.
If you are slack on the parade square, push ups are not going to fly but extra drill is.

Hope this clears things up.

Also, if an NCO yells all the time he or she is not going to get the troops attention when it is necisary by yelling. In the troops mind that is just the noise that that NCO makes.


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## Pikache (30 May 2004)

So how should troops who's being late often be corrected?

If a troop doesn't find NCOs yelling or giving them a lecture... intimidating and convincing to learn why he should not be late, then what, charge the troop?
Shouldn't there be measure before a troop be charged over such matters as being late?

When I did my basic, I was... apprehensive whenever someone of higher rank talked to me because that is the way it should be; as a recruit, anyone with a higher rank deserves respect for his rank and I should pay attention to whatever I'm being told.
But I must have been an oddball because a lot of recruits I see don't find anyone with a leaf intimidating.

I never found a set of ten or twenty push ups done by the platoon to break a troop, but a good... motivator and a reason to not be late again (or other similar... problems)


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## sgt_mandal (30 May 2004)

RoyalHighlandFusilier said:
			
		

> then what, charge the troop?



What is exactly meant by "charging the troop"? Do they actually have to pay? Or is it a figure of speach?


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## Scratch_043 (30 May 2004)

sgt_mandal said:
			
		

> RoyalHighlandFusilier said:
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we have a spell checker now.

I believe he means a monetary fine for the action.


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## sgt_mandal (30 May 2004)

How much do they have to pay?


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## Redeye (30 May 2004)

sgt_mandal said:
			
		

> RoyalHighlandFusilier said:
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It means to lay a charge against the troop under the National Defence Act for violating the Queen's Regulations & Orders or the Canadian Forces Administrative Orders.  The accused can elect to face a summary trial (in front of his/her CO or other designated officer) or a court martial (usually reserved only for serious offenses).  For most minor things (rusty rifle, drunk & disorderly, or the infamous "129" catchall charge), the penalties are fines.  Other less common outcomes might be reduction in rank, for example.

The summary trial involves the accused being marched by the RSM before the presiding officer, during which he is not permitted to wear his headdress.  This is why they are called "the hatless dance".  The accused has the right to an Assisting Officer, whose job is to ensure that he understands what he is being charged with and makes sure that all appropriate information is brought to light.  It's not a "barrack room Matlock" kind of thing, just assistance to make sure the process serves its just purpose.


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## AlphaCharlie (30 May 2004)

On my BMQ we got pushups a lot. Drop your rifle during drill? That means you lack upper body strength. Pushups. Falling asleep in class? Not enough blood pumping. Pushups. Late for your timing? Pushups. PT? Pushups.


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## clasper (30 May 2004)

There are lots of ways to make push ups "corrective" rather than punitive.   Whenever a recruit called me Sgt instead of MCpl, they got to do "rank structure pushups".   Instead of counting them out "1- MCpl, 2- MCpl, 3- MCpl..." the offending recruit had to go through the rank structure on each downstroke, and then my rank on the upstroke: "Pte- MCpl, Cpl- MCpl, MCpl- MCpl..."   For a recruit who is a minute late for a timing, you can demonstrate the length of a minute by leading them in PT for one minute.   I normally took the total time to complete one push up (1/4 of the way down, 1/2 way down, 3/4 of the way down, 1/2 way up, etc.)   When the platoon finally recovers, they'll normally make sure Bloggins isn't late again.

As for swearing at recruits, I had the dubious distinction (in 97) of nearly being charged for swearing at recruits.   Lucky for me, the RSM convinced the commandant that he could take care of the discipline problem (me) without resorting to a charge.   Funny thing was, I hardly ever swore at the recruits, unlike some of my colleagues.   I just happened to let a couple of profanities slip out at a particularly deserving recruit within earshot of an MP.   Oops.


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## sgt_mandal (30 May 2004)

Not being allowed to at least swear, in my oppinion, sort of takes away some of the "umph" or "chutzpah" of being a soldier. Makes it soud too boring. Especially after watching movies like Full Metal Jacket, you would think the army is hard core (I know FMJ was about the Marines, but I'm sure you can see the connection I am trying to make).


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## AlphaCharlie (30 May 2004)

I dont know where you guys were training but in my BMQ (same course as I posted about above) the instructors swore at us... y'eno like "get a f*cking grip on your kit!"

Mind you, I don't know if this new regulation is no swearing or just no calling troops names with swearing in it (i.e. you f*ckheads!) but they can still swear in general?


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## PTE Gruending (30 May 2004)

Talking to a NCO, this is my understanding;
Instructors can swear, however they are not allowed to swear at a candidate. IE: "You troops are ******* slow" is allowed, but not "Bloggins, you are a piece of fuck".


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## RebornXmetalhead (30 May 2004)

Swearing, in my opinion, shows lack of vocabulary and intelligence.

If one has to resort to swearing to show what he's feeling, then he should learn to express himself correctly.

I don't think not swearing would take the "umph" out of it. If you're mean looking and agressive, it should scare the new recruits enough to make them work correctly.

Swearing is usually destructive, I'd rather hear constructive speech for motivation.

Just my opinion.


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## Scratch_043 (30 May 2004)

Why does everyone always pick on Bloggins? Wilson is the real bad apple.


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## Pvt_QoR (31 May 2004)

I have just completed my BMQ .they swear and yell alot as for stress cards i dont know wtf those are cause i never got them unless its a reg force thing.the hitting does not exist anymore nor does the harrassment.To be honest with you i was disappointed at how easy going they are one of the troops on a ruck sack march complained his back was hurting and the corporal drill instruster carried his ruck the rest of the march.this never would have happened 10 or 20 years ago.i think its ridiculous.


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## clasper (31 May 2004)

The corporal carried his rucksack?!?!  Holy crap!

On a ruck march, one of my recruits asked me if he could carry Wilson's rucksack, because Wilson was having so much trouble.  My initial thought was "One man, one kit", but I amended that pretty quickly.  "Bloggins, if you want to carry two rucksacks, go for it."  It never occurred to me to carry the second rucksack myself.  That would have been perverse.


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## Tebo (31 May 2004)

From my experience the current directing staff Sgts are as verbally inventive as ever with one major distinction.  I always pull out the obstacle course wall example.  For my BOTP the Sgt was right there beside you yelling all manner of things into your ear.  When a person hits the six foot wal,l for example, and has difficulty, the urgency and swearing come pouring in.  However, it goes something more like:

"You're akgjalfgj better than that ajglafhg wall.  Now get the ajkgj over it."

For me this makes all the difference.  It's very serious and very motivated encouragment vice destructive personal criticisms.  Equally functional and far more positive.

Of course, experiences will vary based on platoon Warrant Officer and course officer.


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## jswift872 (31 May 2004)

what happens if you swear at you cpl or whatever, because I tend to curse alot, such things as, wtf are you talking about sir, or shut the hell* up, etc.


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## Scratch_043 (31 May 2004)

I would not reccomend it, think what would happen if you swore at a teacher at school, or your grandmother, etc.


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## winchable (31 May 2004)

> what happens if you swear at you cpl or whatever, because I tend to curse alot, such things as, wtf are you talking about sir, or shut the heck* up, etc.



Being moderately familiar with the PLF's BMQ, I'd say you will find your course very long and very painful if you let a profanity slip in the direction of any of the instructors.


It may be a sign of a poor vocabulary, but lets face it, every knows when they hear cursing and what that means but not everyone is going to know what to do if the MCpl whips out a thesauras and blasts you "Webster's Style"


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## Bert (31 May 2004)

Not only a blasting, but it may affect the whole platoon.

Its OK to show drive and personality.  Its better to pick and chose the times and method for
doing it.  By pissing off your section, 2 IC, or platoon commander, you might be responsible
for giving your whole platoon a world of trouble.  Stick with the "Yes MCpl, no MCPL, and
three bags full MCpl!".

A nice way to sneak a bit of verbal fun is in making up marching songs if you're future 
platoon is so inclined.  Our platoon, thanks to OS Lalonde, made up a great one...

Sung to the timing of a standard US Army marching song

"Join the Navy out to sea, (One of our staff was a MasterSeaman)
All the sailors wink at me,
Tie a soap onto a rope,
Pray that I don't drop my soap,
Join the Air Force learn to fly,
<forgot line here>, (I truly forgot the Air Force lyrics, anyways the Air Force shouldn't be dissed)
<forgot line here>,
<forgot  line here,  something about taking a nap>,
Join the Army dig a trench,
I picked up a little french, (as a side note, our staff were primarily French speaking members)
I don't know what they yell at me, (Most of the platoon were from the east coast and knew very little french at the beginning)
"Calise, taberwack, calise, istie",  (I have no idea how to spell)
Sound-off 03,
Sound-off 41,
0341 BRAVO - Huuhrahhh.

I guess you had to be there.  We sang it out in the front of the Mega.  Some said that it was the only time we
surprised our pl commander (except for passing the course hehe).


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## AlphaCharlie (31 May 2004)

Anyone else find it hard not to crack a smile when the instructors are yelling at you?

We were doing a practice for a parade last weekend, and the Sgt was like "you! stop moving your rifle when you march!" and I couldn't help but smile because i'm trying to march, my weapon isn't going to be perfectly immobile, and I really wasn't moving it much. 

Needless to say I got put on weapons watch.  hehe


Funny part is, I only seem to smile when that one Sgt yelled at me... I guess it was funny because even after 3 months he still didn't know our names.


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## shen (1 Jun 2004)

PnkrWeb said:
			
		

> well i heard that if the instructor   make u do pushup   the instructor need ot make them to with u same as for PT


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## Merkava (3 Jun 2004)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Manhandling and hitting??



In Cornwallis I had to solve a problem with my section commander behind our quarters in basic. I also remember a few cases at the RCR Battle School in Pet.


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## Merkava (3 Jun 2004)

J. Gayson said:
			
		

> Instructors still scream and yell.
> 
> These days if they give you PT they have to do it as well.



Please excuse me, but that sounds a bit wimpish!! I remember when I manages to get my locker up to par, I had to dump it and mark time on the contents


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## rcr (3 Jun 2004)

Merkava said:
			
		

> In Cornwallis I had to solve a problem with my section commander behind our quarters in basic.



So what you're saying is you fought your Section Commander during Basic?


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## Merkava (3 Jun 2004)

archer said:
			
		

> Merkava said:
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Lets put it this way we took our problem behind the barracks and left it there.


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## Marauder (3 Jun 2004)

Well, I know everyone is disappointed that you can no longer beat the living dogshit out of some poor stupid 'cruit. I mean, failing to put his neck back in his collar, swinging his arm shoulder high, ELBOWS STRAIGHT YOU, and digging in his left heel deserve a sound thrashing. But you know, nowadays, perhaps it is best that things like that not get shown on the nightly National. Might create a wee bit of a problem, don't you think? I think if the Marines can stop the practice of marching troops into a swamp and having a few of them drown, we might be OK letting the practice of striking recruits go to the wayside. Know'Imean?

Besides, the good MCPL leaning in and quietly suggesting that I sort out a deficiency always put me on edge waaaay more than when he was just screaming at me and walking away. Sometimes less is indeed more.


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## Merkava (3 Jun 2004)

Never said that I thought that was the best way, it simply happens. In my particuliar case, it was that or disciplinary action


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## rcr (3 Jun 2004)

Merkava said:
			
		

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Merkava, I was just curious as to the fact that such things happened.  I apologize if I seemed like I were questioning the truth.


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## Merkava (3 Jun 2004)

archer said:
			
		

> Merkava, I was just curious as to the fact that such things happened.   I apologize if I seemed like I were questioning the truth.



No, nothing to appologize for. Now that I look back at it it does seem a bit "wierd" that I used to be like that.


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## portcullisguy (5 Jun 2004)

Last summer, I *think* that my sect 2ic, a MCpl, was sort of hoping someone would call him out.  In his twisted way, I think this would have given him some sort of satisfaction.  Although he was a major tool (I know guys in his regiment who tell me what a knob he is), he honestly thought he was GI Joe or something, and wanted to PT the snot out of us and give us the big c()ck.  Without going into too much detail, he was way overboard quite often, and I could swear a couple of times he really wanted someone to step forward and "sort things out" with him out behind the tent lines.  The fact that he was a fitness instructor and built like a brick sh_t-house probably kept any takers from opening their yaps.

What tipped me off is during one day out in the field, we stopped in some brush for a little break, and we somehow got into a half-joking little wrestlemania.  Only about 2 or 3 guys would take on this MCpl, and of course they'd lose because most of our guys were skinny 18 year olds (and I was 28 and too smart to try!  haha!), but this guy was really enjoying it and putting the hurt on when he got the chance, and it went way past the half-joking stage.

I'm all for the "old way" but this guy just wasn't a professional at all.  I'm glad that almost every other MCpl I've met wasn't like this guy.


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## bossi (5 Jun 2004)

Fines as a result of disciplinary action are explained in QR&O's (Queen's Regulations and Orders).
They're not something an instructor can mete out.
An instructor can, however, order a course to double-time (run) everywhere in order to teach them the benefit of arriving on time, and if necessary have them enter and exit the classroom several times until they get it right.

Having said that ... last time I was course commander for a recruit course, all instructors were ordered not to swear.
If they did, they were encouraged to donate to the "potty mouth fund" - a jar in the orderly room.
It worked, extremely well.
The recruits came to respect the fact that they were being treated properly and not being abused by their instructors, especially when they saw poor examples being set by instructors from other courses (as an aside, the Brigade Commander eventually ordered another course to come under our command - their performance was THAT bad ...).

Any individual who can not normally/routinely express themselves without resorting to profane language is merely revealing to the world that they have limited intellect - there are absolutely wonderful expressions in the English language whereby an instructor can express their disappointment in a candidate's performance ...
In addition, as noted in other discussions about transgressions which swiftly come to the attention of the public, you never really know who's listening ...

In order to earn the respect of the candidate, and maintain the respect of the citizens we protect, it is essential for soldiers to behave in a disciplined manner.
It's also called Leadership by Example.

Finally, having said all of the above ... yes - there will eventually come a day when swearing might happen.
At that point in time, it is infinitely more effective if it is a rarity - rapidly focussing attention on the problem at hand
(e.g. "GET THE F*** DOWN!!!  INCOMING!!!"  I've seen it happen, for real.)
It's sort of like a siren - if you use if all the time, people ignore it and it loses its' effect.



> When one treats people with benevolence, justice, and righteousness, and reposes confidence in them, the army will be united in mind and all will be happy to serve their leaders.
> Chan Yu, fl. 1000


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