# Bemoaning The Lack of Sports in The CF?  [merged thread]



## TCM621 (28 Feb 2014)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I barely know where to start......   :   ....but I'll limit myself to two points:
> 
> 1.   "...a political Agenda"...especially with the upper-case 'Agenda,' sounds _so_ conspiratorial.   :Tin-Foil-Hat:   anic:
> 
> ...



We can't afford training but the CF will still send a dozen hockey teams on TD to Borden for Nationals. I am all for CF sports in general but if cuts are to be made there is a good place to start.


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## Journeyman (28 Feb 2014)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> I am all for CF sports in general but if cuts are to be made there is a good place to start.


......but only _after_ HQs, as noted here.



And I'm referring to supporting some sports; in descending order:

1. Rugby
2. The others


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## Bzzliteyr (28 Feb 2014)

Why is roller derby not a CISM sport? 

Just wondering...


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## PuckChaser (28 Feb 2014)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> We can't afford training but the CF will still send a dozen hockey teams on TD to Borden for Nationals. I am all for CF sports in general but if cuts are to be made there is a good place to start.



Hockey is the last sport that should be cut. We're Canadians. Canadians play hockey. Old Timer's hockey is gone, but yet we still have squash and badminton nationals? Come on now. There should be 2 winter national sports, and 2 summer national sports.

PS: A dozen hockey teams is 3 separate events: Men's, Women's and OT's. Thats an awful lot of individuals keeping fit, which is what the CF sports program is all about, right?


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## OldSolduer (28 Feb 2014)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Hockey is the last sport that should be cut. We're Canadians. Canadians play hockey. Old Timer's hockey is gone, but yet we still have squash and badminton nationals?



By eliminating badminton and squash the RCAF will complain they have no sports to play...... >


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## Shamrock (28 Feb 2014)

There's still Poker.

And don't forget, they gave us crud.


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## Old Sweat (28 Feb 2014)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> There's still Poker.
> 
> And don't forget, they gave us crud.



And dead ant.


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## OldSolduer (28 Feb 2014)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> And dead ant.



Darts and billiards anyone?


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## TCM621 (28 Feb 2014)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Hockey is the last sport that should be cut. We're Canadians. Canadians play hockey. Old Timer's hockey is gone, but yet we still have squash and badminton nationals? Come on now. There should be 2 winter national sports, and 2 summer national sports.
> 
> PS: A dozen hockey teams is 3 separate events: Men's, Women's and OT's. Thats an awful lot of individuals keeping fit, which is what the CF sports program is all about, right?


Puckchaser jumps to defend hockey? Fitting. It was an example. The same can be said for softball and soccer. I am all for a robust sports program but we have cut benefits and training. Yet the CF keep spends tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars in travel, TD and wages on nationals.

The point is not that hockey or any sport should be cut. It is that the CF, Treasury and the Government could find ways to pay for the things that they need to spend to improve QoL.


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## George Wallace (28 Feb 2014)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> ........ It is that the CF, Treasury and the Government could find ways to pay for the things that they need to spend to improve QoL.



Interesting.

I always thought that Sports were part of that QoL that one would be entitled to.


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## TCM621 (28 Feb 2014)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Interesting.
> 
> I always thought that Sports were part of that QoL that one would be entitled to.



Sports yes. Sending a few dozen people to Nationals? Not really. There are other benefits to be had from a national competitive sports program and I understand and support them. But how can the CF say" sorry Mcpl Bloggins the CF is facing cutbacks so we can't send you on that career course right now. Or afford the TD for that exercise that would really benefit your team." Then turn around and spend that money on recreation that affects a very small group of people?


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## Bzzliteyr (28 Feb 2014)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> Sports yes. Sending a few dozen people to Nationals? Not really. There are other benefits to be had from a national competitive sports program and I understand and support them. But how can the CF say" sorry Mcpl Bloggins the CF is facing cutbacks so we can't send you on that career course right now. Or afford the TD for that exercise that would really benefit your team." Then turn around and spend that money on recreation that affects a very small group of people?



Different budgets


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## SupersonicMax (28 Feb 2014)

Yes and no.  In the end, the CAF is given X amount of money and then money is subdivided.  At the end of the day, same giant pot of money.  The gov. doesn't give extra money for sports on top of the regular DND allocated money.


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## Strike (28 Feb 2014)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> Sports yes. Sending a few dozen people to Nationals? Not really. There are other benefits to be had from a national competitive sports program and I understand and support them. But how can the CF say" sorry Mcpl Bloggins the CF is facing cutbacks so we can't send you on that career course right now. Or afford the TD for that exercise that would really benefit your team." Then turn around and spend that money on recreation that affects a very small group of people?



Probably not an argument meant for this thread.

Now, if you'd said, "We can't change/increas PLD because we're spending it on CF sports programs," then your post would belong here. (One QOL issue vs another QOL issue)

Otherwise things are going to go on a tangent pretty fast and I'm pretty sure there's already another thread out there about sports vs training budgets.


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Feb 2014)

Units should be forced to finance their teams out of the canteen fund. Want to play in the Nationals? Sure thing, you pay for it. 

I've heard of amateur roller derby teams that use donations to attend international championships 

Why should the CAF be different?


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## Bzzliteyr (28 Feb 2014)

Like this?

http://www.gofundme.com/6ckmtg


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## PuckChaser (1 Mar 2014)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Why should the CAF be different?



Pretty sure trolling, but:

The CF demands physically fit individuals, and what better way to encourage that then with competitive sports...


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## OldSolduer (1 Mar 2014)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Pretty sure trolling, but:
> 
> The CF demands physically fit individuals, and what better way to encourage that then with competitive sports...



The Regional and National sports programs are for the elite CF athletes. A noon hour league player will never get near the Nationals unless he/she is tasked to work at a Regional/National event. Meanwhile, some of the elite athletes get special treatment at the expense of their sub unit.....and believe me they do receive special treatment.

In my mind, this is not the intent of the sports program - to field teams that compete nationally. The intent should be to promote fitness and teamwork.


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## stealthylizard (1 Mar 2014)

The CF has national sports  ???  Wasn't evident in Edmonton, except for maybe hockey, but as far as I saw, that was just base regulated between the various trades.


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## McG (1 Mar 2014)

stealthylizard said:
			
		

> The CF has national sports  ???


https://www.cfmws.com/en/aboutus/psp/cfsports/national/pages/default.aspx


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## stealthylizard (1 Mar 2014)

McG, I don't doubt they exist, I just never saw it while I was in Edmonton.


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## Fishbone Jones (1 Mar 2014)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Pretty sure trolling, but:
> 
> The CF demands physically fit individuals, and what better way to encourage that then with competitive sports...



Right back at you.

Your statement isn't a reason for draining much needed cash from the system.

Physical fitness and competition can be accomplished without semi pro players and cross country trips.


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## PuckChaser (1 Mar 2014)

And yet Olympian Bear, and whatever 1 Bde hosts, probably move just as many people around as the national sports program. Start your savings measures there.

Full disclaimer: I'm not a national-level athlete, and have only competed at a regional competition once (and sat on the bench). That being said, I think its a valuable tool to promote/reward elite fitness, build teamwork and raise morale. With budgets slashed everywhere, CF sports took the same hit as everyone else. I'm sure we can find some more efficiencies than cutting the one morale-booster thats not a forced-fun smoker at the end of an exercise.


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## Strike (1 Mar 2014)

stealthylizard said:
			
		

> McG, I don't doubt they exist, I just never saw it while I was in Edmonton.



There's a pretty robust Taekwondo program in Edmonton.

Generally, the National and CISM sports programs will 'Advertise' in the base paper both before and after events, so no reason not to know about them.


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## Fishbone Jones (1 Mar 2014)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> And yet Olympian Bear, and whatever 1 Bde hosts, probably move just as many people around as the national sports program. Start your savings measures there.
> 
> Full disclaimer: I'm not a national-level athlete, and have only competed at a regional competition once (and sat on the bench). That being said, I think its a valuable tool to promote/reward elite fitness, build teamwork and raise morale. With budgets slashed everywhere, CF sports took the same hit as everyone else. I'm sure we can find some more efficiencies than cutting the one morale-booster thats not a forced-fun smoker at the end of an exercise.



I think giving our service personnel the active support, equipment and knowledge is more of a morale builder than sports. Organized sports should be the last thing on the table in a world where people don't even have proper boots.

It's also pretty shallow and naive to consider those sports "the one morale booster".


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## PPCLI Guy (1 Mar 2014)

Sports is one of the tings that makes us different from civilian employers.....


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## PuckChaser (1 Mar 2014)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I think giving our service personnel the active support, equipment and knowledge is more of a morale builder than sports. Organized sports should be the last thing on the table in a world where people don't even have proper boots.



And as pointed out before, 2 completely different budgets. Any of that sports money you're cutting isn't buying boots, or possibly not even staying in DND. We have procurement problems, but their cause is not the CF national sports program.  :


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## OldSolduer (1 Mar 2014)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Sports is one of the tings that makes us different from civilian employers.....


Correct.

I served in a few units that sent rep teams to various regional competitions. The participants - particularly the hockey teams - were viewed as prima donnas by the majority of the unit, and some acted like prima donnas. The vast majority of players were good people caught by their talent. They were a drain on personnel, and often they were MCpls and Sgts, Lts and Capts so their absence was felt.
Often the hockey team(s) were the best treated - formed into a little subunit of their own, trained twice per day, nothing in between and if they went on ex, it was seen as a "good go". A good way to sew dissension among the troops.


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## Fishbone Jones (1 Mar 2014)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Sports is one of the tings that makes us different from civilian employers.....



Yep, definitely different. Most civilian employers ensure their employees have the proper equipment they require to do their job.

That includes their house league sports teams btw.


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## ballz (1 Mar 2014)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> The CF demands physically fit individuals, and what better way to encourage that then with competitive sports...



Yes, and the CF gives them an hour a day every day to participate in physical training. Except half the troops miss it because they're on the base golf/curling/slo-pitch/(insert other non-strenuous sport here) team  :


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## Quirky (1 Mar 2014)

ballz said:
			
		

> Yes, and the CF gives them an hour a day every day to participate in physical training.



Funny, I've never seen an hour a day, every day, where I was allowed to go to PT during work hours. God forbid I go to the gym 30min before my shift ends, heads usually roll. Then again, the majority of my bosses have never seen the inside of a gym, let alone know where it is. I find the whole notion of "CF demands physically fit individuals" laughable when its not being enforced and overweight troops are the norm. 

As far as CF National Sports program, seems that the majority of complaints are coming from those that don't participate in sports. I will never say no to someone who requests time off to participate in regional or national events. This includes going to practices during work hours.


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## ballz (1 Mar 2014)

Quirky said:
			
		

> Funny, I've never seen an hour a day, every day, where I was allowed to go to PT during work hours. God forbid I go to the gym 30min before my shift ends, heads usually roll. Then again, the majority of my bosses have never seen the inside of a gym, let alone know where it is. I find the whole notion of "CF demands physically fit individuals" laughable when its not being enforced and overweight troops are the norm.
> 
> As far as CF National Sports program, seems that the majority of complaints are coming from those that don't participate in sports. I will never say no to someone who requests time off to participate in regional or national events. This includes going to practices during work hours.



Can't speak for your unit, where you are, etc, but in my unit its being enforced more and more from the top down. Command teams were chastised last year for not participating in the Petawawa Ironman and told they *will* be this year like it or not, and everyone was ordered to participate in the local Bushman event and will be this year as well. Sub-unit commanders have to submit a weekly PT sitrep to the CO and I have seen him walk into the office and change it because there wasn't enough (aka... range days were classic "no PT" days, now it is a ruckmarch back from range).

As for sports, I participate in martial arts 2-5 times a week... at 7pm, at a local gym, that I pay out of pocket for. I wouldn't want to participate in sports during work hours because I am busy enough without missing time, but I am all for the troops going and playing a game of hockey as they are generally less occupied than I am in garrison.

That said, when we are going to conduct live-fire platoon attacks in the field for a few days and we are forced to combine 3 Pl's + Coy HQ to make one rifle Pl, and some of the best troops are missing because they are gone on a week-long hockey tournament somewhere else in the country, no, I do not support that. I do not see why the CAF needs to have a national sports program of that magnitude when a local sports program is more than adequate to promote fitness and teamwork, and would allow us to actually do what we are paid to do when it is time to go do it....


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## Quirky (1 Mar 2014)

ballz said:
			
		

> That said, when we are going to conduct live-fire platoon attacks in the field for a few days and we are forced to combine 3 Pl's + Coy HQ to make one rifle Pl, and some of the best troops are missing because they are gone on a week-long hockey tournament somewhere else in the country, no, I do not support that. I do not see why the CAF needs to have a national sports program of that magnitude when a local sports program is more than adequate to promote fitness and teamwork, and would allow us to actually do what we are paid to do when it is time to go do it....



If there is an exercise during a regional/national event its up to the COC to approve members participation. I've been denied participating at a national event due to short manning and an ex. in the US. I didn't put up a fuss since there is always next year, plus Borden sucks.  I don't see how someone can be approved to go to a sporting event over an important career ex or course.


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## TCM621 (1 Mar 2014)

Quirky said:
			
		

> If there is an exercise during a regional/national event its up to the COC to approve members participation. I've been denied participating at a national event due to short manning and an ex. in the US. I didn't put up a fuss since there is always next year, plus Borden sucks.  I don't see how someone can be approved to go to a sporting event over an important career ex or course.


I once new a Lt(N) who came back from a deployment to practice up and compete for triathlon nationals. Stuff like that happens all the time.


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## Fishbone Jones (1 Mar 2014)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> And as pointed out before, 2 completely different budgets. Any of that sports money you're cutting isn't buying boots, or possibly not even staying in DND. We have procurement problems, but their cause is not the CF national sports program.  :



It does ultimately come from the same pot. That one that the taxpayers give us. Just because the CAF decides to split it off into various budgets does not change things. Funds can be reallocated to those budgets and some might even be cancelled and the funds transferred elsewhere.


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## Quirky (1 Mar 2014)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> I once new a Lt(N) who came back from a deployment to practice up and compete for triathlon nationals. Stuff like that happens all the time.



If he is approved, why not? Sports shouldn't be seen as a career handicap, in fact the opposite as it promotes fitness, team work and in some cases leadership.  :2c:


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## OldSolduer (1 Mar 2014)

Quirky said:
			
		

> If he is approved, why not? Sports shouldn't be seen as a career handicap, in fact the opposite as it promotes fitness, team work and in some cases leadership.  :2c:



By allowing pers to miss exercises and deployments you take either the worker bees or the leader bees. You put the strain in who is left behind. It promotes a culture of special privilege for physically gifted soldiers, and more work for those not so gifted.


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## Tibbson (1 Mar 2014)

I know that I most likely will not have one person agree with me but while I understand that we have a responsibility to be in shape and that the CAF has a fitness standard, I fail to see how we got to the point where our members expect to have 1-2 hours each day for PT.  And just try to tell someone they can't get the time off each day to practice with the Base basketball team or that week off to go to Nationals because it would leave the office too short staffed.  

Back when I started, and admittedly it was many years ago, it was the individuals requirement to ensure he/she was fit.  Other then Unit sports events we were expected to use the gym on our own time or participate in our own fitness program at home or where ever we wanted to.  Now I find that my workplace shuts down ever day an hour and a half early, or starts work an hour and a half later because of the "I'm entitled to go to the gym" viewpoint of the members.  God forbid work should come first.


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## Eye In The Sky (1 Mar 2014)

Quirky said:
			
		

> If he is approved, why not? Sports shouldn't be seen as a career handicap, in fact the opposite as it promotes fitness, team work and in some cases leadership.  :2c:



So does:  

1.  sailing, in the Navy.

2.  flying, in the RCAF.

3.  FTXs in the C Army.

Much better than *sports* does.   Full stop.  


Someone answer me this;  what does playing on say, the Wing hockey team and going to the Nationals do to directly improve the operational effectiveness of the Wing you are from?  Does it make you a better tech, pilot, MSE Op, or whatever?

I doubt it.

If budgets are shrinking, start cutting off the life supply to non-essential things, the same way your body does if it is freezing to death to protect the "important stuff" and make sure those important things survive.  Sports that cost PYs and TD $ should be cut before anything on the FG/FE side of the house.  Different budgets?  Change them.

We need to stop making excuses to justify the things we do that are stupid because we've been doing them for XX years.


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## JesseWZ (1 Mar 2014)

Schindler's lift said:
			
		

> Now I find that my workplace shuts down ever day an hour and a half early, or starts work an hour and a half later because of the "I'm entitled to go to the gym" viewpoint of the members.  God forbid work should come first.



I thought there was a CANFORGEN from the (now retired) CDS about that somewhere (circa 2011-2012ish?) expressing his intent we be *"fit to fight."* A "peacetime" army is still required to be fit to fight (the mission being our first priority and all). Claims, Stores, Reports, Memos, et al, can be dealt with after ensuring our men and women are "fit to fight" should the GoC call on us to go somewhere, kill people and wreck their stuff. 

I wont weigh in on the Sports stuff too much, other than if we are all tightening our belts, CISM should too. Start axing some National Sports/Teams, and re-examine that pot of money, but I definitely don't see a problem with members conducting PT during work hours at a unit where an organized PT time may be impractical. There are also solutions for places closing early like staggering the timings of members PT as well.


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## Eye In The Sky (1 Mar 2014)

Schindler's lift said:
			
		

> I know that I most likely will not have one person agree with me but while I understand that we have a responsibility to be in shape and that the CAF has a fitness standard, I fail to see how we got to the point where our members expect to have 1-2 hours each day for PT.



I could type out a long answer; the short version is for me to say "go read the CDS Guidance to COs", specifically Chap 22.  A few quotes from the Chap.

_It is imperative that the requirement for fitness training at least five times a week is
respected and applied. As Commanding Officers you will be in a position to facilitate this
requirement for all your personnel.
_

_Seek out every opportunity for CF members to include exercise in their work routines. The
mantras of “fitness on your own time” or “we don’t have time for fitness” *are to be
eliminated*. Given what we know of the power of daily fitness to increase morale, reduce
stress, and improve work performance, it is incumbent upon us to be innovative in our
approach when a formal fitness routine is impractical.
_

So ya, other than the direction of the CDS, there is no reason for people to do PT (part of their job, to keep fit) during "work hours".  It is part of our work.



> Back when I started, and admittedly it was many years ago, it was the individuals requirement to ensure he/she was fit.  Other then Unit sports events we were expected to use the gym on our own time or participate in our own fitness program at home or where ever we wanted to.  Now I find that my workplace shuts down ever day an hour and a half early, or starts work an hour and a half later because of the "I'm entitled to go to the gym" viewpoint of the members.  God forbid work should come first.



Not to be rude, but I really think you need to go read that Chapter.   ;D


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## Bruce Monkhouse (1 Mar 2014)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> By allowing pers to miss exercises and deployments you take either the worker bees or the leader bees. You put the strain in who is left behind. It promotes a culture of special privilege for physically gifted soldiers, and more work for those not so gifted.



Works for me, I never begrudged those who were good enough to play hockey, broomball, etc and scored better goes than I, or others, may have gotten. Sounds like petty whining to these ears....
I did manage one good go, and that was training everyday with no duties for most of a winter for a biathlon competition, and I don't recall getting grief from anyone either.


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## Drag (1 Mar 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> If budgets are shrinking, start cutting off the life supply to nonessential things, the same way your body does if it is freezing to death to protect the "important stuff" and make sure those important things survive.  Sports that cost PYs and TD $ should be cut before anything on the FG/FE side of the house.  Different budgets?  Change them.



Couldn't agree with you more.  I worked in a unit last year where we limited pers to one base/intermural team per sports season/ 2 per year due to significant pers reductions the unit experienced.  There was a distinct and very vocal minority who complained.  Talking to some of them I was taken aback by the culture of entitlement where some people seemed to actually think that it is acceptable for their primary duties to suffer so they can be afforded the opportunity to partake in CISM sports.  An individual actually threatened to grieve not letting him participate in regional due to the Op tempo at the time.


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## OldSolduer (1 Mar 2014)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> By allowing pers to miss exercises and deployments you take either the worker bees or the leader bees. You put the strain in who is left behind. It promotes a culture of special privilege for physically gifted soldiers, and more work for those not so gifted.



Further to this is that the leaders who missed exercises because of sports missed some development in being a leader and were not as able to adapt as others. That didn't matter, they were still promoted on time, were sent on career courses etc because they were "good soldiers".


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## OldSolduer (1 Mar 2014)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Works for me, I never begrudged those who were good enough to play hockey, broomball, etc and scored better goes than I, or others, may have gotten. Sounds like petty whining to these ears....
> I did manage one good go, and that was training everyday with no duties for most of a winter for a biathlon competition, and I don't recall getting grief from anyone either.



When the platoon suffers because the WO and some of his minions are off playing hockey, who does the work? The senior Sgt steps up and does it. In a small unit, the absence of key pers off playing sports is not desirable.

Our primary duty is to kill the enemy, not raise our hands when MCpl Jonny scores a goal.

BTW biathlon is an activity we should be looking at - we do shoot and we live in a country that has winter.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (1 Mar 2014)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> When the platoon suffers because the WO and some of his minions are off playing hockey, who does the work? The senior Sgt steps up and does it.



Well who steps up when the WO goes down in a real scenario???  Oh yea....


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## Journeyman (1 Mar 2014)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> ......training everyday with no duties for most of a winter for a biathlon competition, and I don't recall getting grief from anyone either.


So no one actually noticed that you were gone......


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## Bruce Monkhouse (1 Mar 2014)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> So no one actually noticed that you were gone......



.....and that's the key to really enjoying your job. :-*


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## upandatom (1 Mar 2014)

So, judging by some of the reactions in this thread, not many of you participate in Sports.

It benefits in many ways;

1. Physical fitness, to compete at the level in many sports takes peak conditioning.
2. Morale, Obviously
3. Team building, 
4. Leadership- and to that comment up above that states flying, and sailing develops leadership, that is head in the sand thinking. 
5. Friendly Rivalry between bases etc. 

I do agree that yes, some sports need to be reeled in. There is no way that a Base Hockey team should be getting free sticks every year. Im sorry, you play that sport, you buy your equipment. That includes sticks. That is a waste of the money right there. Basketball teams don't get shoes, Runners don't get shoes, soccer teams don't get shin pads or cleats. 

But the budget is different. PSP earns money from civilian memberships in joining gyms etc. The CAF buys us the best equipment they can for fitness, the PSP are smart and allow civilians to buy memberships. That budget, is something the CAF has said, this will go to fitness. So in essence, the gyms and fitness centres feed money back into the system. Its not only budget money that is used as well. A lot of sponsors are used to, local banks, credit unions etc offer money to run the events, pay for team travel to tournaments. 

If you choose not to make a goal, put personal time and effort in, and join one of the many teams, don't harp on the people that do. 

Each/most sport has a patron(like Regimental/Honorary Col ) as well, a Senior Staff Officer that is involved with the sport, of free will, they volunteer, that sometimes offer their own money to teams for travel etc. 
And CISM has tightened its belts, ALOT. As of now we only have Triathlon, Taekwondo and Soccer I think. The triathlon and taekwondo will never be cut as we are a world contender in those sports.


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## OldSolduer (1 Mar 2014)

upandatom said:
			
		

> So, judging by some of the reactions in this thread, not many of you participate in Sports.



That's a very broad brush you're using.

Many of us do participate in sports. One here coaches volleyball, I am long distance runner, and at least one I know of is  nationally ranked in karate.
I think our issue is with why in these times of fiscal restraint how do we justify to the public that we can not afford to train our soldiers, but we can afford to send a small select group off to play sports.


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## upandatom (1 Mar 2014)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> By allowing pers to miss exercises and deployments you take either the worker bees or the leader bees. You put the strain in who is left behind. It promotes a culture of special privilege for physically gifted soldiers, and more work for those not so gifted.



Physically gifted? Dafuq is that supposed to mean? Because they work out, train, dedicate their personal time and effort? If a member is not in shape to participate in a sport, that is level of fitness issue. I was out of shape after a sever injury, I busted my ***, got into shape, and was picked up by several base teams. 

Your right it is a privilege. We enjoy that privilege, if our CoC says we can go, its not your business. The CoC is aware of the shortage (and usually its only 2-4 days or so). If a unit is having that much manning issues, then the chances of that member being permitted to participate is unlikely. 

After several deployments, working with other countries, and seeing their fitness levels,  The overall fitness of our military is a bit of a joke. Why are we doing yoga? especially at units that don't have rigorous PT 5 days a week. Even the circuits given by the PSP are a bit weak sauce.


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## upandatom (1 Mar 2014)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> That's a very broad brush you're using.
> 
> Many of us do participate in sports. One here coaches volleyball, I am long distance runner, and at least one I know of is  nationally ranked in karate.
> I think our issue is with why in these times of fiscal restraint how do we justify to the public that we can not afford to train our soldiers, but we can afford to send a small select group off to play sports.



Like i stated, a lot of funds come from the Sports Patrons, Gym Membership sales, and Sponsors


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## Journeyman (1 Mar 2014)

upandatom said:
			
		

> .... its not your business.


You chose to post in a public forum, then say it's "not your business"?  :stars:

Jumping to conclusions is not considered PT.

Try not to get injured climbing down off your soapbox.


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## JesseWZ (1 Mar 2014)

upandatom said:
			
		

> 4. Leadership- and to that comment up above that states flying, and sailing develops leadership, that is head in the sand thinking.



I guess we should just disband the Navy then, not a leader amongst the lot right? It's not like our ships need a Captain and such.


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## Strike (1 Mar 2014)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> That's a very broad brush you're using.
> 
> Many of us do participate in sports. One here coaches volleyball, I am long distance runner, and at least one I know of is  nationally ranked in karate.
> I think our issue is with why in these times of fiscal restraint how do we justify to the public that we can not afford to train our soldiers, but we can afford to send a small select group off to play sports.



If you're talking me, it's TKD.  Big difference!  (And was ranked. Haven't competed in about two yrs)

I hear the call about fiscal restraint.  As far as I'm concerned, everyone should be affected equally wrt budget cuts.  But that shouldn't mean cutting sports out completely.  When you're posted to a place like Edmonton, sure, there are a whack load of places to practice, compete, etc outside of the base and on your own dime.  But if you're in a place like Goose Bay, there may be only two adult hockey teams -- the CF team and the civvie team.  And travelling to regionals/nationals is the only chance these people might get to see how good they really are and have a bit of fun.

And those people that always seem to be gone to compete?  If they are using their own leave when competing at civilian events and doing their best to make sure it doesn't interfere with the op tempo of the office, the what's the problem?  I've been there myself and sometimes had to miss big competitions, (like PanAm in Mexico grrrrrr) because I was on a course and the schedule didn't allow me to be away, but in the same vein, was given time to go to an international competition in Asia.


----------



## ballz (1 Mar 2014)

upandatom said:
			
		

> If you choose not to make a goal, put personal time and effort in, and join one of the many teams, don't harp on the people that do.



I can't help put notice that you keep saying "personal time" when in fact we are talking about the taxpayer's time.



			
				upandatom said:
			
		

> But the budget is different. PSP earns money from civilian memberships in joining gyms etc. The CAF buys us the best equipment they can for fitness, the PSP are smart and allow civilians to buy memberships. That budget, is something the CAF has said, this will go to fitness. So in essence, the gyms and fitness centres feed money back into the system. Its not only budget money that is used as well. A lot of sponsors are used to, local banks, credit unions etc offer money to run the events, pay for team travel to tournaments.



I would, in a heartbeat, support cancelling civilian memberships if it meant cancelling cross-country trips for base teams, but it would have better access to the facilities for both military members and units that want to use them for unit-run PT activities. 

It does not sound like a very good use of resources to me when an undermanned rifle coy can't get one floor for an hour to play a game of floor hockey because the facilities are being used up by the local town, and the money is then being used to pay for trips for people who already have no trouble getting ice-time because they are on the base hockey team.


----------



## kratz (1 Mar 2014)

upandatom said:
			
		

> But the budget is different. PSP earns money from: in part from NPF BASE FUNDS and civilian memberships in joining gyms etc. The CAF and in part from NPF BASE FUNDS buys us the best equipment they can for fitness.



You are not as aware of where all that support comes from, as you might think. When others posted above that funding comes from a different pot of money, it can NOT all be rerolled back into general public (taxpayer) funds, as NPF is owned by the members.

Edit: My words in yellow inside the quote.


----------



## Old Sweat (1 Mar 2014)

kratz said:
			
		

> You are not as aware of where all that support comes from, as you might think. When others posted above that funding comes from a different pot of money, it can NOT all be rerolled back into general public (taxpayer) funds, as NPF is owned by the members.
> 
> Edit: My words in yellow inside the quote.



Early post-unification the CDS tried to seize the various regimental and unit funds to create a giant CF central fund, but this bombed because the courts ruled these monies were separate from DND funds.


----------



## kratz (1 Mar 2014)

A central NPF fund continues to exist to this day.

Your post made my point, in that NPF thus a major part of PSP funding is separate from public funding
due to those court cases.


----------



## OldSolduer (1 Mar 2014)

upandatom said:
			
		

> Physically gifted? Dafuq is that supposed to mean? Because they work out, train, dedicate their personal time and effort? If a member is not in shape to participate in a sport, that is level of fitness issue. I was out of shape after a sever injury, I busted my ***, got into shape, and was picked up by several base teams.
> 
> Your right it is a privilege. We enjoy that privilege, if our CoC says we can go, its not your business. The CoC is aware of the shortage (and usually its only 2-4 days or so). If a unit is having that much manning issues, then the chances of that member being permitted to participate is unlikely.
> 
> After several deployments, working with other countries, and seeing their fitness levels,  The overall fitness of our military is a bit of a joke. Why are we doing yoga? especially at units that don't have rigorous PT 5 days a week. Even the circuits given by the PSP are a bit weak sauce.



Not my business? I beg to differ.


Get off your high horse. Try not to fall.


----------



## Infanteer (1 Mar 2014)

There is enough money to train.  These activities are useful to keep people interested during times between field deployments.


----------



## OldSolduer (1 Mar 2014)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> There is enough money to train.  These activities are useful to keep people interested during times between field deployments.



Understood. I know 1 CMBG has Strong Contender (some have said Pretender) but it is almost exclusivley an Edmonton thing, despite 2 VP and 1 Guns being in Shilo.
The rank and file a good many years ago weren't upset about the unit volleyball team, or the unit broom ball team....it was the hockey team. 
I have said enough now.


----------



## MJP (1 Mar 2014)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Understood. I know 1 CMBG has Strong Contender (some have said Pretender) but it is almost exclusivley an Edmonton thing, despite 2 VP and 1 Guns being in Shilo.



It is hardly an Edmonton only thing.  Both Shilo units send strong contingents , I can't recall from this year but Wx and Suffield generally send teams as well.  Troops coming in to Edmonton is the largest cost but I have never heard anyone say exclude them.  It is preferable to cut the number of spectators and sports.

I have long distained CISM as I personally feel it has little bang for its buck. Even Regionals and Nationals get my goat a bit and feel that they should be biannually but I certainly don't begrudge folks that play the sports.  As several have pointed out it is an excellent perk of the job; one very few civilian employers would give.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (1 Mar 2014)

upandatom said:
			
		

> So, judging by some of the reactions in this thread, not many of you participate in Sports.
> 
> It benefits in many ways;
> 
> ...



6.  Sports are NOT ESSENTIAL to conducting OPERATIONS.  

I've played rugby, soccer, hockey, I've boxed, competed in wrestling, judo, taken karate.  Guess what made me better at foot patrols?

None of those.

The CAF isn't a professional sports organization and anyone who joins for the 'sports scholarship' stuff is motivated for the wrong reason.


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## TCM621 (1 Mar 2014)

I wonder how many people who are so vehemently defending national spots programs, are doing so because they have benefited from being on a base team?

One poster above listed a bunch of benefits of sports. I totally agree with all of them. In a perfect world our national sport program would be huge and we would be attracted Olympic level athletes who could go on the world stage and rep the CF.
But the CF is not a perfect world, it isn't even a moderately reasonable one. We have personnel shortages everywhere, no money for training or equipment. Spending money and person days on something like nationals just does make fiscal sense.


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## Eye In The Sky (1 Mar 2014)

upandatom said:
			
		

> 4. Leadership- and to that comment up above that states flying, and sailing develops leadership, that is head in the sand thinking.



I'll reply to this as I wrote it.  Head in the sand thinking.  SO all the pre/work-up training for the sandbox should not have been done in the field, it should have been done on ballfields and hockey clinics??

So.  To you, flying/sailing/field deployments do NOT develop leadership but a rink or ball field does?

You are pure fucking clueless.


----------



## Strike (1 Mar 2014)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> I wonder how many people who are so vehemently defending national spots programs, are doing so because they have benefited from being on a base team?
> 
> One poster above listed a bunch of benefits of sports. I totally agree with all of them. In a perfect world our national sport program would be huge and we would be attracted Olympic level athletes who could go on the world stage and rep the CF.
> But the CF is not a perfect world, it isn't even a moderately reasonable one. We have personnel shortages everywhere, no money for training or equipment. Spending money and person days on something like nationals just does make fiscal sense.



But all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.


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## upandatom (1 Mar 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I'll reply to this as I wrote it.  Head in the sand thinking.  SO all the pre/work-up training for the sandbox should not have been done in the field, it should have been done on ballfields and hockey clinics??
> 
> So.  To you, flying/sailing/field deployments do NOT develop leadership but a rink or ball field does?
> 
> You are pure ******* clueless.



All of that does, I never said just athletics develops leadership skills. I was defending the fact that Athletics helps develop it as someone previously stated that it does not. 

It is well documented that Atheltics has a direct influence on leadership ability and develops leadership skills.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (1 Mar 2014)

It's not "all work".  We are talking about cutting the waste of tax dollars (including mine) sending people, who are being paid by the CAF, but aren't at their place of duty doing work, they are practicing or playing on teams that then go away on TD cash cow trips.

Intersection hockey, unit teams, etc are fine.  It's these sports scholarship types who think they 'have a RIGHT!' to get paid tax dollars to play sports and not use Ann Leave and use TD bucks and the like that are the problem.

I remember a good go on Adventure Training at Marble Mountain for a week years back.  Hard to do that now, and it wasn't open to the 'select few' who could slap a piece of rubber between the posts.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (1 Mar 2014)

There is plenty and friggin' plenty of money................to say it gets wasted badly is an insult to the term 'wasted badly'.

I'd scrap a lot of useless things before I'd scrap any sports......


----------



## Eye In The Sky (1 Mar 2014)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> There is plenty and friggin' plenty of money................to say it gets wasted badly is an insult to the term 'wasted badly'.
> 
> I'd scrap a lot of useless things before I'd scrap any sports......



So, the cuts to YFR at my Wing this coming FY are all in my head.  Roger.


----------



## upandatom (1 Mar 2014)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> There is plenty and friggin' plenty of money................to say it gets wasted badly is an insult to the term 'wasted badly'.
> 
> I'd scrap a lot of useless things before I'd scrap any sports......


 :nod:
How about the millions we have wasted on boots, or new cad pat uniforms (what is wrong with what we have now? besides no two "sizes" are the same) or the tonne of members on IR. 
I work at a unit that deals with money daily, huge wastes everyday. What about the rampant end of FY spending? on what? more useless crap?



			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> 6.  Sports are NOT ESSENTIAL to conducting OPERATIONS.
> 
> I've played rugby, soccer, hockey, I've boxed, competed in wrestling, judo, taken karate.  Guess what made me better at foot patrols?
> 
> ...



No they aren't essential for conducting operations, but they do keep the fitness level up as, the comradery, and develops leadership. Participating in these have given you fundamentals that can directly affect the outcome of those foot patrols. 

Why do you think RMC, Annapolis, and other Leadership schools around the world have set standards that their students will participate in sports. They develop skills essential to military life.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (1 Mar 2014)

upandatom said:
			
		

> *No they aren't essential for conducting operations*


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (1 Mar 2014)

I guess if "operations" are all ya' have left in your life then..............


----------



## Strike (1 Mar 2014)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I guess if "operations" are all ya' have left in your life then..............



'Zactly!


----------



## TCM621 (2 Mar 2014)

There seems to be a lot of people building a straw man argument here. Eye in the sky, myself and a few others are speaking strictly to sports teams and athletes that travel on the Queen's shilling to events like Nationals or CISM. This does not  make us anti sport. I have participated in sports in all my life and have reaped the benefits. Intersection sports are fun and cost effective. Even trips between bagotville and valcartier or comox and esquimalt, etc could still be workable. However, the current system is not fiscally responsible at this point.


----------



## OldSolduer (2 Mar 2014)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> There seems to be a lot of people building a straw man argument here. Eye in the sky, myself and a few others are speaking strictly to sports teams and athletes that travel on the Queen's shilling to events like Nationals or CISM. This does not  make us anti sport. I have participated in sports in all my life and have reaped the benefits. Intersection sports are fun and cost effective. Even trips between bagotville and valcartier or comox and esquimalt, etc could still be workable. However, the current system is not fiscally responsible at this point.



Well said. Sports are good but when they cause dissension they can be poison to a unit.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (2 Mar 2014)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I guess if "operations" are all ya' have left in your life then..............



So the CF should be responsible for each and every members recreational activities?  I don't want to play hockey or soccer.  I want to canoe.  So I guess for each hour someone plays hockey, I should be able to throw a canoe in the water and paddle around.

During work hours, that is.  I should also be able to load that canoe up for a week and go paddle in other places, on TD.

 :


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## upandatom (2 Mar 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> So the CF should be responsible for each and every members recreational activities?  I don't want to play hockey or soccer.  I want to canoe.  So I guess for each hour someone plays hockey, I should be able to throw a canoe in the water and paddle around.
> 
> During work hours, that is.  I should also be able to load that canoe up for a week and go paddle in other places, on TD.
> 
> :



You mean Adventure training? Units do that all the time. 



			
				Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Well said. Sports are good but when they cause dissension they can be poison to a unit.



Yes they can, I agree fully. Usually with people that are out of shape though, or just plain and simple too lazy to participate.

Its the same argument i get in my with civilian workers. They bitch and complain that we do PT (we do PT three days a week, and two PT sessions are at 1430 which is 30 min before we are done for the day), that some people play sports, either intersection or regional/national. The way my unit works is that- IF you participate in a sport, you are only allowed to attend the Tuesday morning PT Session with the CO and the PSP staff. 
I tell my civilian workers, hey, if you want the benefits, go to the recruiting office. 

And as for people taking my comments literally-
I agree, CISM should be scaled back (the triathlon people are spending two weeks in march in florida training and competing at a camp)

For those that don't know- CISM is a funny little machine- CISM is usually full of Class B, CISM funds actually pay those members contracts while they are part of/participating with CISM events. IE- an excellent and semi pro triathlon runner happens to be a reservist, in the triathlon circle the patron of the sport hears about this, that member gets a class b somewhere, then that member goes to Florida for two weeks, Because they are class B, and part of CISM, they get paid through CISM for those two weeks there. 

National level sports need to be cutback (some should become Biannual) I think the big ones- Hockey, Basketball, Volleyball, Soccer, Running, Softball (3 winter 3 summer ) should stay (maybe floor hockey for the hockey lovers that can't skate) In no way am i saying Badminton, Racquetball etc aren't sports. They just have a tendency to be very one sided and the same person winning year after year. 

I would also hesitantly agree- Sports TD should be of a different amount then Course, or Work related TD. And at all times possible, Service flights used. I am fairly certain we have planes that are required to fly one way or another to keep flying hours up.


----------



## Bird_Gunner45 (2 Mar 2014)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I guess if "operations" are all ya' have left in your life then..............



I don't think we will ever get to a point where "operations" is all anyone should have in their life, nor do I think anyone is arguing that.  What one could argue is that the only people that get anything out of CISM sports are the few people who do CISM sports.  If a unit wins the national hockey championship who other than the hockey players and the CO/RSM get anything out of it?  Whereas, we're willing to cut money for what I would deem "useful" TD such as international/NATO conferences but maintain CISM as a sacred cow.  If the money comes out of NPF than that's fine, that's what NPF money is for.  However, I see no reason why my mother, father, sisters (ie- taxpayers) should pay for personnel to go to a national or regional sports event so that they can drink/socialize on TD.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (2 Mar 2014)

upandatom said:
			
		

> You mean Adventure training? Units do that all the time.



And it is avail to all unit members who are not tasked, on course, etc.  Not just those who lace up skates or cleats.


----------



## Halifax Tar (2 Mar 2014)

This is getting silly.  

Claiming that hockey players going to hockey tournaments creates dissension ?  Please.  Want to canoe ?  Go to the MSA and sign one out, enjoy.  Or as upandatom said set up adventure training.  Good luck. 

But don't whine because others are off doing something else that's fun, god forbid anything be enjoyable in the CAF.  And don't tell me your defending the almighty taxpayers $ either because there isn't a person on this site who either was or is in the CF who hasn't had a jammy go on the tax payers dime, be it a course, conference or sport, the list can go on..  

Look people somedays your get the gravy somedays your get the crap.  Stop worrying about what others are doing and look after you and yours.


----------



## The Bread Guy (2 Mar 2014)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Claiming that hockey players going to hockey tournaments creates dissension ?  Please.


Don't know about your bit of the CF, but I heard similar complaints about hockey teams being excused from all sorts of nasty stuff as far back as 1980.  And it sounds like those still in suggest this has not been entirely reduced to zero.  I'd be happy to be corrected, but _if_ this is still happening, it's more "us vs. them", and money that can be used elsewhere.

Then again, if the Snowbirds found money to do U.S. shows after saying "we're not doing any U.S. shows to save some money," _anything_ is possible, right?


----------



## MAJONES (2 Mar 2014)

upandatom said:
			
		

> Yes they can, I agree fully. Usually with people that are out of shape though, or just plain and simple too lazy to participate.


And with those of us who now have no TD money available to go and do training that would help us do our jobs.  And also with those of us whose careers are about to get sidetracked because there is no money for a cost move.
If you want to be super fit, good on you.  There are lots of gyms on the base; hell, I don't even mind if you want to take time during working hours for it.  If you want to play hockey, great!  There are plenty of rinks available, and, again, I have no problem with people doing it during working hours.
However, if you want to be paid to travel around and play sports get yourself into the NHL, NBA etc; if they'll take you.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (2 Mar 2014)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Don't know about your bit of the CF, but I heard similar complaints about hockey teams being excused from all sorts of nasty stuff as far back as 1980.



Yup, and since I couldn't skate worth a lick back then, I just watched and wished I was good enough to do it also.  I surely did not whine, moan, or piss in everyone's cornflakes because of my shortcomings...............

Now I don't even know what 'CISM' stands for and I surely don't know if they waste money, [wouldn't be surprising] but I do know how important sport days et al were to a whole lot of us back In Pet during the 80's.  One thing that used to really, really bug me [us] was with all the tasking's we could never join a local organized sports league because you never knew when you'd be gone, at least with CF sponsored stuff that void can be partially filled.

I will freely admit that in my last 2 years while in Gagetown, I had discovered my love for volleyball, and not being able to really play anything organized, played a part in my decision to 'pull pole'.   
For those people are talking about "taxpayer's money" getting wasted here, I'll bet retention of a few trained individuals is one of those hidden savings that will never come to light, and therefore cannot be proved, but I'm sure exists.

[sorry if this is jumbled up but I'm rushing to pack up because the school team I'm coaching is going to the Ontario Championships this afternoon............oh wait, perhaps another hidden benefit of having local sports, learning skills that can help get a new generation of kids off their asses??]


----------



## Journeyman (2 Mar 2014)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Claiming that hockey players going to hockey tournaments creates dissension ?  Please.


Looking at the  :argument:  nature of these posts, it apparently does.

:dunno:    Just sayin'


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (2 Mar 2014)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Looking at the  :argument:  nature of these posts, it apparently does.
> 
> :dunno:    Just sayin'



Just like career course's can....cancel them also?? >


----------



## George Wallace (2 Mar 2014)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> [sorry if this is jumbled up but I'm rushing to pack up because the school team I'm coaching is going to the Ontario Championships this afternoon............oh wait, perhaps another hidden benefit of having local sports, learning skills that can help get a new generation of kids off their asses??]



Wait for it.  School budgets are also a bone of contention in municipalities.  How long will they support sending kids off to Provincial meets and National meets, even with the kids raising their own monies?   >


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (2 Mar 2014)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Wait for it.  School budgets are also a bone of contention in municipalities.  How long will they support sending kids off to Provincial meets and National meets, even with the kids raising their own monies?   >



High school sports pretty much pay our own way now. We've hosted VB tournaments for years to raise our funds.........
The only cost to the board this year is the cost of a substitute teacher for the 5 days my assistant has had to take the day off. [a teacher must always be present]


----------



## Halifax Tar (2 Mar 2014)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Looking at the  :argument:  nature of these posts, it apparently does.
> 
> :dunno:    Just sayin'



Well in my regiment I don't hear anything from the Pte - MCpl folks about it.  No on really seems to care.  I have a girl in one of my line crews gone to hockey nationals right now.  Her crew isn't phased in the slightest and we are on ex.  Infact I hear more about those "sick, lame and lazy" pers at all ranks who manage to weasel out of anything out side of their regular working hours, but not a peep about athletes gone to compete. 

This whole thread is just silly and filled with same blow hards complaining about something.  If it wasn't this it would be buttons and bow or boots or something.  Some people just like to complain is what I chalk it up too. 

Good luck to those competing in CISM/National/Regional events do the CAF proud and compete hard, fair and honest.  The athleticism, fitness and leadership you bring back will only be an asset to your units, squadrons and ships. 

*I have never been and probably never will be a CISM athlete, unless rugby union makes a come back*


----------



## Journeyman (2 Mar 2014)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> *I have never been and probably never will be a CISM athlete, unless *rugby union  * makes a come back*


----------



## George Wallace (2 Mar 2014)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> High school sports pretty much pay our own way now. We've hosted VB tournaments for years to raise our funds.........
> The only cost to the board this year is the cost of a substitute teacher for the 5 days my assistant has had to take the day off. [a teacher must always be present]



The point being, the students, and in some cases teachers, are at times absent for varying periods of classroom time when away at these tournaments.  Not all costs to the CAF, like the school systems, are financial.  

At the same times, the benefits of developing other skills and networking while at these events are never factored in on a financial scale.  Those benefits and networking may not have a price, but may outweigh any fiscal considerations being made by the "bean counters" who only see life through blinders focused solely on black and white accounting sheets.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (2 Mar 2014)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> *I have never been and probably never will be a CISM athlete, unless rugby union makes a come back*



Now THIS I can agree with.  I'd love to see base level intersection rugby.


----------



## Halifax Tar (2 Mar 2014)

Journeyman said:
			
		

>



Cant see your pic... Its block by DND servers  


EDIT:  It's the 'slow clap" pic.
Bruce


----------



## Navy_Pete (2 Mar 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Now THIS I can agree with.  I'd love to see base level intersection rugby.



That would be fantastic.  I think the closest we get to this anymore is the 'flag' football games.  Played in the Halifax officer vs NCM one and it was a lot of fun.  Out of any sport I've ever played, nothing built teamwork, leadership, etc like rugby, and it's excellent for fitness. Playing touch rugby as a warm up was actually more work then the full contact games; you didn't get a break after a tackle as there were no rucks, mauls etc.  Tough on the liver though!

Personally also found it a great confidence builder as well; went from being a shy nerd to occasional team captain (but still a nerd) after a few seasons.  Nothing quite like getting back up and into the fray after taking a kicking to improve your self image.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Mar 2014)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> High school sports pretty much pay our own way now. We've hosted VB tournaments for years to raise our funds.........
> The only cost to the board this year is the cost of a substitute teacher for the 5 days my assistant has had to take the day off. [a teacher must always be present]



Bingo! Replace High school with Units. Want to participate? Raise your own funds. No cost to the military.

No one is complaining about base intramural sports. It's the Units time and the military dime to pay people to fly willy nilly around the continent (world?) to participate in sports. Budgets are moot. The money all starts out in the same pot. The more that is allocated to one thing (budget), the less there is to spread around for other stuff (budgets).

It also has SFA to do with whether or not anyone else competes in sports or not. Also, people are not fat and lazy because they don't agree with the current policy. So people can stop throwing those two straw men out to further their agenda.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (2 Mar 2014)

We agree to disagree I guess.
Speaking as a long time civilian taxpayer I just know I'd rather see my dollars spent on military sports than sending folks to score more degree's, jammy postings, useless HQ's, friggin' etc, etc, etc.........

RG,...while we're at it, lets stop sending kids to the Olympics also,....same taxpayer pot ya' know.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (2 Mar 2014)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> That would be fantastic.  I think the closest we get to this anymore is the 'flag' football games.  Played in the Halifax officer vs NCM one and it was a lot of fun.  Out of any sport I've ever played, nothing built teamwork, leadership, etc like rugby, and it's excellent for fitness. Playing touch rugby as a warm up was actually more work then the full contact games; you didn't get a break after a tackle as there were no rucks, mauls etc.  Tough on the liver though!
> 
> Personally also found it a great confidence builder as well; went from being a shy nerd to occasional team captain (but still a nerd) after a few seasons.  Nothing quite like getting back up and into the fray after taking a kicking to improve your self image.



In 1 CMBG, there is the annual Rucking Ram exercise, which is a 15's tournament, so Rugby does get played at the unit level.  Sadly, it seems dependant on leadership that also plays rugby.  Mind you, I am not sure the Bde Comd will be allowed to play anymore - this year he cracked three ribs and had his right lung collapsed by a young Strathcona...


----------



## Tibbson (2 Mar 2014)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Then again, if the Snowbirds found money to do U.S. shows after saying "we're not doing any U.S. shows to save some money," _anything_ is possible, right?



I can't help but wonder how much of that "new found money" came from the $240,000 my Unit had to hand back in January and work out how to make do without?  I hope they enjoy their TD to the States.  Ours was cut as was all courses and purchases till 1 Apr.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (2 Mar 2014)

Schindler's lift said:
			
		

> I can't help but wonder how much of that "new found money" came from the $240,000 my Unit had to hand back in January and work out how to make do without?  I hope they enjoy their TD to the States.  Ours was cut as was all courses and purchases till 1 Apr.



Now come on,...just think how good that will be for your unit moral.
 :sarcasm: :sarcasm:
[shouldn't be required but some folks aren't good at getting it]


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Mar 2014)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> RG,...while we're at it, lets stop sending kids to the Olympics also,....same taxpayer pot ya' know.



I'm sure you understand that I'm talking about the pot that's handed to the CF to allocate to its various needs.

Sending young, amateur athletes to the Olympics is a matter of _national_ pride and serves a national interest (including financial when we host).

Sending semi pro (yes they are being paid to play) members from a Unit to play a tournament, across the country, from a military budget, is not.

However, you knew that  :stirpot: when you tossed out the red herring. 

I've made my points and defended them. I have nothing left to offer. I'm not going to waste anymore time when there's no compromise to be reached.


----------



## ModlrMike (2 Mar 2014)

I've resisted posting on this topic until my thoughts were more clear on the issue. Anyways, my  :2c:

I think there's some middle ground here. I agree that those pers who serve their careers on a "sports scholarship" need to wake up and realize that they're in the CF to serve it rather than the other way round. That being said, there's still scope to send pers, and even teams, to national and international events.

It used to gall me that hockey players would get the entire morning to practice, while everyone else worked. Then at PER time these guys would get pushed up the merit list with nothing other than their sports to support their PER. At the same time, individual athletes (TKD, Biathalon, etc) would have to train on their own, and routinely get turned down for attendance at various national camps etc. I'm not talking about casual participants, rather nationally ranked athletes. The result is that the base hockey team got to train and travel extensively on the Crown's dime, where the individual athlete had to travel and train on their own; and take annual leave to do so.

I'm not singling out hockey here, but hockey seems to be the biggest offender. I'm OK if we turn down the taps on team sports. It's important to recognize that there are high caliber individuals who need to compete at national events too. Support to one team from one base once per year may not be as effective as support to 22 individuals across the country. 

We talk about the leadership and so on the team sports builds. I submit that there are traits such as perseverance for example, that individual sports build. Both are equally valid and valuable to the CF.



			
				Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> ...(snip)... I'd rather see my dollars spent on military sports than sending folks to score more degree's, jammy postings, useless HQ's, friggin' etc, etc, etc.........



Oh, and I agree with Bruce. I'd rather spend money on sports rather than some of the other wasteful things we have going on.



			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> Also, people are not fat and lazy because they don't agree with the current policy.



You're right, people are fat and lazy because they're fat and lazy. It has nothing to do with policy, and everything to do with the lack of a fitness culture in the CF. But that's another discussion for another time.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (2 Mar 2014)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I'm sure you understand that I'm talking about the pot that's handed to the CF to allocate to its various needs.
> 
> Sending young, amateur athletes to the Olympics is a matter of _national_ pride and serves a national interest (including financial when we host).
> 
> ...





"Red Herring"??  When the phrase "only one pot" gets used in an argument, well there is only 'one pot', so it's fair game to be tossed.
Let me ask this, if that money was allocated by the "one pot people" to the CF to be used or loosed for national sports then you'd be onboard??


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Mar 2014)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> "Red Herring"??  When the phrase "only one pot" gets used in an argument, well there is only 'one pot', so it's fair game to be tossed.
> Let me ask this, if that money was allocated by the "one pot people" to the CF to be used or loosed for national sports then you'd be onboard??



I'm only posting here again as a matter of clarifying my statement.

The red herring you tossed out was about cutting amateur athletes to the Olympics and it was addressed as such after my explanation of the athletes. 

But then, once again, I'm sure you knew that and your indignance is, yet again, just another attempt to jerk my chain. Sorry, this dog is in the house and that chain has nothing on the end.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (2 Mar 2014)

Your wrong my friend, if I wanted to "jerk your chain" I'd go to the 'Gun Control" thread. ;D

I'm just very passionate about people getting involved in sports of any kind, at any level.  Almost all the real important things I learned in life came from playing, or teaching, sports.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Mar 2014)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Your wrong my friend, if I wanted to "jerk your chain" I'd go to the 'Gun Control" thread. ;D
> 
> I'm just very passionate about people getting involved in sports of any kind, at any level.  Almost all the real important things I learned in life came from playing, or teaching, sports.



No sweat. PM replied to.


----------



## Halifax Tar (2 Mar 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Now THIS I can agree with.  I'd love to see base level intersection rugby.



I think touch/flag rugby should be considered for a National level sport.  But Rugby union is too dangerous if played incorrectly.  A couple of years ago we had 2 players die in Canada from collapsed scrums.  Our insurance sky rocketed. 

The other aspect is having observed 2 CMBG play rugby it looked to me more like a bunch of thugs who found an excuse to club each other, rather than a Rugby match.  I have played this sport for over 20 years at the school, club, provincial and representative level and I would encourage those interested to to seek out a local civilian club as you will learn more and become a better rugby player.


----------



## OldSolduer (2 Mar 2014)

upandatom said:
			
		

> You mean Adventure training? Units do that all the time.
> 
> Yes they can, I agree fully. Usually with people that are out of shape though, or just plain and simple too lazy to participate.



Adventure training, in my experience, is difficult to get approved. Units do not "do it all the time".

And again, you use a very broad brush to paint the vast majority of CAF  members as out of shape and lazy.


I would love to see biathlon as a training activity. It's good exercise and it can improve marksmanship.


----------



## McG (2 Mar 2014)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Now I don't even know what 'CISM' stands for ...


International military sports league.
https://www.cfmws.com/en/AboutUs/PSP/CFSports/International/CISM/Pages/default.aspx


----------



## dapaterson (2 Mar 2014)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Mind you, I am not sure the Bde Comd will be allowed to play anymore - this year he cracked three ribs and had his right lung collapsed by a young Strathcona...



Wonder if that would be a chain of command prohibition, or a 9D prohibition...


----------



## PuckChaser (2 Mar 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> So the CF should be responsible for each and every members recreational activities?  I don't want to play hockey or soccer.  I want to canoe.  So I guess for each hour someone plays hockey, I should be able to throw a canoe in the water and paddle around.
> 
> During work hours, that is.  I should also be able to load that canoe up for a week and go paddle in other places, on TD.



PSP at least in Kingston has canoes available to sign out, fill your boots. Canoe at lunch hour when shinny hockey is on. If there's a regional canoe championships, paddle yourself there and enjoy the TD. If there isn't, work with your sports director to get one started if you think there's enough interest.


----------



## Navy_Pete (2 Mar 2014)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> I think touch/flag rugby should be considered for a National level sport.  But Rugby union is too dangerous if played incorrectly.  A couple of years ago we had 2 players die in Canada from collapsed scrums.  Our insurance sky rocketed.
> 
> The other aspect is having observed 2 CMBG play rugby it looked to me more like a bunch of thugs who found an excuse to club each other, rather than a Rugby match.  I have played this sport for over 20 years at the school, club, provincial and representative level and I would encourage those interested to to seek out a local civilian club as you will learn more and become a better rugby player.



That's fair; I know there are some really quality clubs here in the NCR but as Dad's Taxi co can't really properly commit anymore.  Fortunately we've taken up triathlons more or less as a family, so it's a good excuse to get out and run, bike and flounder around the water as a group.  I think touch rugby would be a lot of fun though, might see if I can set something up informally among some of us kicking around LSTL once the ground thaws as we could probably find a nearby park to run around in.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (2 Mar 2014)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> PSP at least in Kingston has canoes available to sign out, fill your boots. Canoe at lunch hour when shinny hockey is on. If there's a regional canoe championships, paddle yourself there and enjoy the TD. If there isn't, work with your sports director to get one started if you think there's enough interest.



No no, I want to do it during work hours and the same TD as a Wing/Base hockey team  ;D


----------



## upandatom (2 Mar 2014)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Adventure training, in my experience, is difficult to get approved. Units do not "do it all the time".
> 
> And again, you use a very broad brush to paint the vast majority of CAF  members as out of shape and lazy.
> 
> ...



Understood, Ill agree i may have gone a little broad with that, but you must admit that the average fitness level in the CF is of concern. 

As for biathlon i would as well. But the problem there would be weapons, range safety etc.


----------



## JesseWZ (2 Mar 2014)

If Biathlon, a national pastime that even cadets participate in, is something we can and want to do,  I'm sure we can well figure out how to run a biathlon range. I mean, it's not like those with PLQ don't have an A/RSO ticket or anything... 

Edit: my grammar is terrible today.


----------



## Halifax Tar (2 Mar 2014)

JesseWZ said:
			
		

> If Biathlon, a national pastime that even cadets participate in, is something we can and want to do,  I'm sure we can well figure out how to run a biathlon range. I mean, it's not like those with PLQ don't have an A/RSO ticket or anything...
> 
> Edit, my grammar is terrible



I have my PLQ and dont have the A/RSO ticket...


----------



## JesseWZ (2 Mar 2014)

I should have spoken more specifically and accurately, PLQ-L, I'm sure we can scrounge up a few kicking around.

HT - sorry about overlooking your Naval kindred.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Mar 2014)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> I have my PLQ and dont have the A/RSO ticket...



There's a course for that?


----------



## Halifax Tar (2 Mar 2014)

JesseWZ said:
			
		

> I should have spoken more specifically and accurately, PLQ-L, I'm sure we can scrounge up a few kicking around.
> 
> HT - sorry about overlooking your Naval kindred.



Theres always someone like me who has to be different eh  :nod:  

Just poking at ya bud... I do get your point and agree


----------



## Halifax Tar (2 Mar 2014)

recceguy said:
			
		

> There's a course for that?



I would imagine... jesus we cant switch toilet paper with out having to do an online course anymore...


----------



## OldSolduer (2 Mar 2014)

upandatom said:
			
		

> Understood, Ill agree i may have gone a little broad with that, but you must admit that the average fitness level in the CF is of concern.
> 
> As for biathlon i would as well. But the problem there would be weapons, range safety etc.



No problem with weapons as C7 is our service rifle, therefore the C7 it is.

I have no idea what your trade is, but in mine range safety is but one of our tasks.


----------



## Halifax Tar (2 Mar 2014)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> No problem with weapons as C7 is our service rifle, therefore the C7 it is.
> 
> I have no idea what your trade is, but in mine range safety is but one of our tasks.



Don't they use a .22LR in biathlon ?


----------



## Strike (2 Mar 2014)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Don't they use a .22LR in biathlon ?



Yes, but there used to be a military biathlon national competition that used the sevice rifle with members decked out in fighting order and skiing on 'bangie boards,' which really sucked when skiing down the hill in Pet behind the RCD lines.   ;D


----------



## OldSolduer (2 Mar 2014)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Don't they use a .22LR in biathlon ?



Yes for civilian competitions. Since we don't generally use .22 LR to engage the enemy the C7 should be the logical weapon, and service skis for the ski choice.


----------



## dapaterson (2 Mar 2014)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Yes for civilian competitions. Since we don't generally use .22 LR to engage the enemy the C7 should be the logical weapon, and service skis for the ski choice.



...but the weapons det gets to use the C6 and Carl G...


----------



## OldSolduer (2 Mar 2014)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> ...but the weapons det gets to use the C6 and Carl G...



Agreed..... >


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (2 Mar 2014)

We practiced with.22 inserts in the FNC1.


----------



## OldSolduer (2 Mar 2014)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> We practiced with.22 inserts in the FNC1.



I remember those. Showing your age Bruce.


----------



## upandatom (2 Mar 2014)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> No problem with weapons as C7 is our service rifle, therefore the C7 it is.
> 
> I have no idea what your trade is, but in mine range safety is but one of our tasks.



PLQ-L Qualified, so yeah its doable. 

I just find it kind of scary with the way some people handled their weapons overseas, i just can't imagine some people running around on skis with a weapon!!


----------



## OldSolduer (2 Mar 2014)

upandatom said:
			
		

> PLQ-L Qualified, so yeah its doable.
> 
> I just find it kind of scary with the way some people handled their weapons overseas, i just can't imagine some people running around on skis with a weapon!!



That is why you train and train some more til it's muscle memory that kicks in. Safe Weapons handling is an integral part of being in the CAF. Everyone should be capable of that.


----------



## PuckChaser (3 Mar 2014)

Biathlon should be something we bring back. I'd do that in a heartbeat, looks like an amazing sport.


----------



## upandatom (3 Mar 2014)

Im not disagreeing at all with the weapons handling. 

It could be a fun sport, but wasn't this thread about abolishing sports  ;D

Kidding. But there are a lot of stuff that gets sidelined for the major 6 i mentioned earlier


----------



## McG (3 Mar 2014)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Look people somedays your get the gravy somedays your get the crap.  Stop worrying about what others are doing and look after you and yours.


I think the expressed concern is not "gravy some days" but is instead individuals who have found themselves a "gravy train."



			
				upandatom said:
			
		

> ... wasn't this thread about abolishing sports  ...


Actually, it was not.  Abolishing sports has been the strawman to oppose the actual suggestion of abolishing national sports.
I think there has been general consensus that unit and base level sports are valuable in that they are open to all members and they encourage fitness.
National and international sports really cater to the elite athletes who do not need that encouragement.  So, why do we need these levels?

... and where do regional sports fit on this spectrum?  Are they encouraging fitness, or are they "gravy"?  Can regional sports be both if they are seen to reward pers/teams who are exceeding fitness expectations?


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## Fishbone Jones (3 Mar 2014)

MCG said:
			
		

> I think the expressed concern is not "gravy some days" but is instead individuals who have found themselves a "gravy train."
> Actually, it was not.  Abolishing sports has been the strawman to oppose the actual suggestion of abolishing national sports.
> I think there has been general consensus that unit and base level sports are valuable in that they are open to all members and they encourage fitness.
> National and international sports really cater to the elite athletes who do not need that encouragement.  So, why do we need these levels?
> ...



There you go.

The only advantage to a unit team going national is Unit prestige for owning the winning team.

You get bragging rights for the year. You get unit prestige. 

All those thousands of dollars equate to a trophy in the hallway of the Regimental HQ.

And in a lot of cases, career advancement for the players.


----------



## Biggoals2bdone (26 May 2014)

Mods feel free to move this if it is not In the right place.
Apologies for any spelling errors I'm on my smartphone.

I walked through the base gym here and see plaques honouring military athletes from decades ago, varied interests ranging from traditional military things such as shooting competitions, and running, to various other things such as fencing, javelin, weightlifting, cycling, hockey,boxing etc... It got me wondering a few things:
Why are some of these sports no longer included in military sports? (Boxin is a perfect example)
Why do we need have many if any successful athletes anymore (not talking about fun runs but someone or teams winning competitions and getting up there)
Why as a whole is the military less interested in having fit pers it seems.

Questions along these lines. Especially since the USA has special programs for members who compete in sports and possibly go to the olympics


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## PuckChaser (26 May 2014)

We can't afford sports, or other morale programs anymore. In the 60s we had tons of money to run boxing/biathalon/etc programs.


----------



## RCDtpr (26 May 2014)

I don't know where it went but it's sad to see.  I remember more than a few times a guy would put in a memo asking for some time to do pt on their own as well as asking for an annual day as they were relatively high level athletes.  The regiments response?  Said soldier was "randomly" selected for an "important" tasking that would preclude them from training and entering the competition.

Sad really as high level athletes would be great ambassadors for the CF.


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## Edward Campbell (26 May 2014)

Boxing was banned in the mid 1960s when the Surgeon General's staff presented data that showed, convincingly I was told, that brain injuries were far, far too common and that boxing helmets did not provide sufficient protection.

It, banning boxing, was controversial at the time ... boxing had a long, colourful history in the military; boxing champions were local, regimental _celebrities_ and boxing events were attended by officers in patrol dress or even mess dress uniforms and their ladies in evening gowns.






Sgt Mike Mercredi, Western Command and Army heavyweight
champion, about 1960, with (then)MGen Rockingham, Commander
Western Command.


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## Navy_Pete (26 May 2014)

When I was over on course in the UK they let us join their boxing club.  Before we left they had a fight night where a few of our guys boxed against the RN lads in their weight class.  They packed a small arena with maybe about 500 people in Portsmouth.  It was pretty funny to be in the crowd as the only officers fighting were Canadians, so there was a bit of jeering in the bleachers when they announces 'SLt Bloggins vs LS Bloggins' but the boys did well.  Pretty big night out though, lots of locals showed up to watch as well.

I can see the odd head injury resulting but I think it's possibly offset by the overall benefit of having fit, motivated folks and also a great way to burn off frustrations without getting arrested.  Lots of other team sport alternatives as well that don't involve getting punched in the head.

There's usually lots of intramural things on the go though for the average folks that want to just play something.  So for the majority of folks that aren't elite athletes, there is still a wealth of options.  Also, think the CoC is generally pretty supportive if someone is training for something specific (like a triathalon) that they let them go do PT offsite to prepare (if there isn't a pool avail).  Not many civies get that kind of opportunity and have to train outside of work, so don't really see why anyone in uniform should be different if they want to dedicate a large amount of time to sports.


----------



## daftandbarmy (26 May 2014)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> When I was over on course in the UK they let us join their boxing club.  Before we left they had a fight night where a few of our guys boxed against the RN lads in their weight class.  They packed a small arena with maybe about 500 people in Portsmouth.  It was pretty funny to be in the crowd as the only officers fighting were Canadians, so there was a bit of jeering in the bleachers when they announces 'SLt Bloggins vs LS Bloggins' but the boys did well.  Pretty big night out though, lots of locals showed up to watch as well.
> 
> I can see the odd head injury resulting but I think it's possibly offset by the overall benefit of having fit, motivated folks and also a great way to burn off frustrations without getting arrested.  Lots of other team sport alternatives as well that don't involve getting punched in the head.
> 
> There's usually lots of intramural things on the go though for the average folks that want to just play something.  So for the majority of folks that aren't elite athletes, there is still a wealth of options.  Also, think the CoC is generally pretty supportive if someone is training for something specific (like a triathalon) that they let them go do PT offsite to prepare (if there isn't a pool avail).  Not many civies get that kind of opportunity and have to train outside of work, so don't really see why anyone in uniform should be different if they want to dedicate a large amount of time to sports.



It was interesting seeing the sports thing in action in the British Army.

At Sandhurst, everyone plays 'house' level sports on Wednesday afternoons. I did rugby, boxing and cross country. It was a good break and got you connected with a bunch of others outside your usual 'silo' of experience. I was pretty good at cross country, definitely average at boxing and rugby (Me? Prop? Ha!), but it gave me a good chance to give the sports a shot with the benefit of some high quality coaching, which I would never have got otherwise. There were 'elite' teams that were hand picked to go play WestPoint at rugby, for example, and these guys were all the best sportsmen in their sports - largely because they were long time athletes before joining the army. We thought this was a good thing too.

In battalion we did pretty much the same thing. We had company boxing teams etc and the winners of various matches went to the Battalion/Brigade/ Army level matches. I led the Bn orienteering team (as a 2Lt no less!) and we placed 3rd in a Divisional level competition. The time investment was pretty minimal, usually just Wednesday afternoon sports, unless you went on to Army level sports where you joined a formal team of some kind. For example, two guys from my company went on to be Olympic bobsledders for Britain. 

Again, this was a good way to mix it up with those you never usually connected with, so you'd have the Bde Comd milling around with the rest of us at the start of some kind of running event or other. Then in the bar afterwards as well, of course. 

On the one hand you could argue that it was a drain on resources, on the other hand it was pretty inexpensive way to build a good level of self-esteem in guys who mostly came from humble backgrounds. It also helped build a good team - at all levels - and keep the overall interest levels up.

I keep hearing horror stories from various folks I know who joined the Regs and hung around a lot, 'guarding lockers' or whatever. I often wonder how much of this spare time could be refocused more usefully on sports.


----------



## Biggoals2bdone (29 May 2014)

I totally agree that there would be some minimal expenditures, but lets be honest money gets spent already on all kinds of silly stuff.

Not only does it help the morale, it also connects us with others in the military as others have pointed out, but further then that it also connects us to members of other militaries possibly, that we would compete against.

I'll also add that I think it comes down to bias and lack of education in some cases.
Example: There's a bench press competition every year in Petawawa, when the officer running the whole thing was asked why its bench only, and not a full powerlifting meet i.e squat, bench, deadlift, he responded with the Base commander said its to dangerous and won't agree to it, BUT how many guys get hurt playing hockey or rugby or competing in the Ironman...hell they even have pugil stick competition...how is that more dangerous then lifting a barbell (something a lot of us do on our own time anyway)


It has been my personal experience that CoC's i've had in the past would only support career themed PT request (i.e i'm training for CSOR/JTF2/SAR tech selection) or something that has to do with running/triathlons/marathons or unit sports.


dumb expenditures...redoing the hardwood floors of the courts...only to go ruin them by playing hockey on them when there are 3 field houses you can use isntead, and that means having to redo the hardwood floors again...

I'll also add that in my mind, if I heard more stories out there about how we have athletes at the olympics or Pan-Am or other big competitions who are also serving members in the military that would boost the image of the military.  You can't deny that having world class athletes wouldn't change the general publics opinion a bit.

I also think combative sports such as BJJ, Boxing, MMA, kickboxing should definitely be ENCOURAGED in the military, fostering that warrior ethos, and tradition.

I'm also surprised Track & Field isn't bigger in the military, as many events are in the wheelhouse of military members, and they are cheap competitions to put on.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (29 May 2014)

_I also think combative sports such as BJJ, Boxing, MMA, kickboxing should definitely be ENCOURAGED in the military, fostering that warrior ethos, and tradition._

That might fly in the face of harassment course you are required to take, along with taking time away from important things like, courses on how to design your e-mail Sig block to meet new TBS standards.


----------



## Biggoals2bdone (29 May 2014)

I have to ask if that's sarcasm or if those "courses" have actually happened to you?

Before I got in, after having watched to many military themed movies, I thought the military put an emphasis on fitness and sports, etc...in my time in i've come to realize they don't care, they are okay with fat out of shape troops, and providing us with low quality equipment to exercise with.

Also like you alluded to, they rather we go on these courses or what not that generally speaking are a waste of time since most people are just speeding through to get their check in the box.


----------



## PuckChaser (29 May 2014)

MrBlue said:
			
		

> I also think combative sports such as BJJ, Boxing, MMA, kickboxing should definitely be ENCOURAGED in the military, fostering that warrior ethos, and tradition.



Close quarters combat Basic course should be added to the BMQ-L course.

BJJ and MMA are slowly making their way mainsteam, Pet is running another grappling championship this year. Its a slow moving train, but we'll get there.


----------



## MJP (29 May 2014)

I disagree that we have lost our sports/fitness culture.  I think our focus and emphasis has changed from the years prior when it comes to sports and athletics. I will agree partly with you in that I think we have a terrible instituitional attitude towards physical fitness writ large.  As for sports there are still robust local sports leauges for all manner of sports plus a number of regional, national and CISM sports competitions, including various Brigade and element ones (Ironman, Mtn man, RCAF run, Army Run).  They IMHO are more than enough to sate anyone's appetite when it comes to sports.

We are a small force with limited funds.  I would rather see the bulk of sports funding downloaded onto the center of mass rather than focusing on individuals/teams who are elite in their field.  We don't need people whose job is to do a sport.  There are better avenues for those folks to go down if they want to be full time athletes.  If anything creating a workforce where PT isn't the first thing sloughed off when things get a bit busy would be a step in the right direction.

Wrt MMA/Grappling and the like, I do agree there should be a move for more inclusion and acceptance, but it also boils downs to what do the troops want to do.  Hockey, soccer, softball, golf, volleyball, basketball and various other intramural type sports dominant their wants.  Very few want MMA, boxing, biathalon etc etc


----------



## quadrapiper (29 May 2014)

How much of the apparent shift can by tied to the move from internal PERI pers to PSP?


----------



## daftandbarmy (29 May 2014)

MJP said:
			
		

> Wrt MMA/Grappling and the like, I do agree there should be a move for more inclusion and acceptance, but it also boils downs to what do the troops want to do.  Hockey, soccer, softball, golf, volleyball, basketball and various other intramural type sports dominant their wants.  Very few want MMA, boxing, biathalon etc etc



I agree. That's the secret of success behind a 'house sports league' approach. Everyone gets a chance to try their hand at everything.

And based on what kind of teams the troops want, you can engage with local civvy teams as part of a fun type of COMREL program. We frequently played rugby and soccer teams from a variety of local communities in various countries and it was good fun for everyone, especially when the 'British Army' lost!


----------



## Michael OLeary (29 May 2014)

quadrapiper said:
			
		

> How much of the apparent shift can by tied to the move from internal PERI pers to PSP?



By the time the PERIs disappeared, the only sports they were interested in were they ones they competed in. They contributed little to unit sports programs. PSP were just better building managers because they weren't allowed to spend most of the work time practicing their own chosen sports..


----------



## dimsum (29 May 2014)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> And based on what kind of teams the troops want, you can engage with local civvy teams as part of a fun type of COMREL program. We frequently played rugby and soccer teams from a variety of local communities in various countries and it was good fun for everyone, especially when the 'British Army' lost!



Exactly.  I would hazard a guess that a fair chunk of CF members already participate in local sports leagues and pay for team shirts, etc. so it wouldn't be much of a stretch for those playing the same sport in the league to make a CF team.  It wouldn't have to be anything formal, but it would increase PR presence in something that the members are doing anyway.

I never looked into it in Canada, but the ADF will pay for entry fees, etc. in a variety of events (such as marathons, triathlons and the like) if the member wears an ADF shirt/singlet.  Again, good PR and really not a whole lot of $ for the Crown.


----------



## Biggoals2bdone (30 May 2014)

MJP said:
			
		

> I disagree that we have lost our sports/fitness culture.  I think our focus and emphasis has changed from the years prior when it comes to sports and athletics. I will agree partly with you in that I think we have a terrible instituitional attitude towards physical fitness writ large.  As for sports there are still robust local sports leauges for all manner of sports plus a number of regional, national and CISM sports competitions, including various Brigade and element ones (Ironman, Mtn man, RCAF run, Army Run).  They IMHO are more than enough to sate anyone's appetite when it comes to sports.
> 
> We are a small force with limited funds.  I would rather see the bulk of sports funding downloaded onto the center of mass rather than focusing on individuals/teams who are elite in their field.  We don't need people whose job is to do a sport.  There are better avenues for those folks to go down if they want to be full time athletes.  If anything creating a workforce where PT isn't the first thing sloughed off when things get a bit busy would be a step in the right direction.
> 
> Wrt MMA/Grappling and the like, I do agree there should be a move for more inclusion and acceptance, but it also boils downs to what do the troops want to do.  Hockey, soccer, softball, golf, volleyball, basketball and various other intramural type sports dominant their wants.  Very few want MMA, boxing, biathalon etc etc



Pretty much the only sports I ever hear about are softball, hockey ice and ball, soccer and volleyball, you also cannot forget the point you made for me...runs, there's all kinds of military runs, and that's about it. As far as satiating everyone's appetite for sports I'm telling you that it in fact only caters to a portion of people.  I only know 1 person who wants to run as a sport, I know maybe 2-5 people who want to play hockey or rugby...majority of the people I know could care less about these sports.

As far as CISM goes, we don't compete in half the sports! So that's not exactly a shining beacon.

Like I said I think some people need to broaden their horizons and learn about other things then running and hockey for example. Excluding sports because you aren't knowledgeable about those sports and giving BS reasons shouldn't be happening. 

Not only for the opportunities should we harken back to the old days of sports, but for that added competitiveness and pride in having beaten everyone else on your base or everyone in your division. Think about it how many sports aternoons or functions or crappy boring (no long term plan) PT have any of us done that we couldn't have used that time instead to practice whatever chosen sport we did (provided we were competitive)?


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## daftandbarmy (30 May 2014)

MrBlue said:
			
		

> Not only for the opportunities should we harken back to the old days of sports, but for that added competitiveness and pride in having beaten everyone else on your base or everyone in your division. Think about it how many sports aternoons or functions or crappy boring (no long term plan) PT have any of us done that we couldn't have used that time instead to practice whatever chosen sport we did (provided we were competitive)?



Cricket. I even had to play cricket. I had no idea what was going on except: 

a) I had a nice nap in the outfield after they fed me lunch
b) We won (I couldn't tell)
c) We all got hammered on G&Ts afterwards


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## MJP (30 May 2014)

MrBlue said:
			
		

> As far as CISM goes, we don't compete in half the sports! So that's not exactly a shining beacon.


\

Good,  excuse my language but I fricking hate CISM and think it is almost a complete waste of funds.  I see little benefit for the CAF writ large from sponsoring sports that only benefit a limited number of CAF members.  Our limited funds are better spent at the base level with some National comps thrown in(but certainly not every year like the current status quo).



			
				MrBlue said:
			
		

> Pretty much the only sports I ever hear about are softball, hockey ice and ball, soccer and volleyball, you also cannot forget the point you made for me...runs, there's all kinds of military runs, and that's about it. As far as satiating everyone's appetite for sports I'm telling you that it in fact only caters to a portion of people.  I only know 1 person who wants to run as a sport, I know maybe 2-5 people who want to play hockey or rugby...majority of the people I know could care less about these sports.



What do you want to see?  The troops will only play and be interested in what they want to do.  You sound like the folks that want the mess to serve healthier food all the time but forget that that isn't what the troops want.  

That said, you can create all sorts of teams if you get the interest and put in the effort.  No one is stopping you from trying.  In recent years I have seen a football team, grappling, MMA"esque" and some limited rugby action started as grassroots (in some cases Comd driven) activities.

I have also had the opposite experience in my career than you in that there seems to be enough variety of sports for most people.  The fact that most bases are near major population centers also means that folks that play sports that don't have critical mass can go downtown and play.  Certainly doesn't help create "cohesion" within the military community but I would argue that the benefit is largely overstated anyway (unless of course it is rugby).



			
				MrBlue said:
			
		

> Not only for the opportunities should we harken back to the old days of sports, but for that added competitiveness and pride in having beaten everyone else on your base or everyone in your division. Think about it how many sports aternoons or functions or crappy boring (no long term plan) PT have any of us done that we couldn't have used that time instead to practice whatever chosen sport we did (provided we were competitive)?



Again I ask what sports should we harken back too?  The ones the troops don't want to participate in?  The ones with limited numbers of folks that want to do it that further spread our small allotment of money?  Like I said, start a team and get it going.  Bemoaning the that the lack of traction is due to ignorance smacks of excuse making.  Make them educated by having a well drawn up and executed plan of attack.  Not the easiest to do I will admit but if you want something different, no one else is going to do it for you.

As for the competitiveness out in the army of the west we have a winter sports competition and this summer an inaugural summer sport competition plus mountain man.  3 events driven by the Bde that foster some great competition between all the units.  Not to mention all the normal base leagues and base teams for the various regional and national comps.  IMHO I think we are pretty well covered in the sports dept.


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## Danjanou (30 May 2014)

MrBlue said:
			
		

> I have to ask if that's sarcasm or if those "courses" have actually happened to you?



having known the poster for 4 decades now I'd say both.  8)


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## Nemo888 (30 May 2014)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Cricket. I even had to play cricket. I had no idea what was going on except:
> 
> a) I had a nice nap in the outfield after they fed me lunch
> b) We won (I couldn't tell)
> c) We all got hammered on G&Ts afterwards



Is it wrong that I miss the getting hammered even more than the athletics?  I say bring back both.


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## Biggoals2bdone (30 May 2014)

MJP said:
			
		

> \
> 
> I have also had the opposite experience in my career than you in that there seems to be enough variety of sports for most people.  The fact that most bases are near major population centers also means that folks that play sports that don't have critical mass can go downtown and play.  Certainly doesn't help create "cohesion" within the military community but I would argue that the benefit is largely overstated anyway (unless of course it is rugby).



Are we in the same military? Most bases are near major population centers i.e cities?  (if that's not what you meant I apologise, that's how I understood it) I would say probably half of the installations are in the sticks,
To show what I mean: Gagetown, Aldershot, Petawawa, Meaford, Shilo, Suffield, Wainwright, Bagotville, Comox, Cold Lake, Gander, Goose Bay, Greenwood, Trenton are all small towns and/or are in the middle of nowhere, where you have to drive a while to get to anything worthwhile.



			
				MJP said:
			
		

> Again I ask what sports should we harken back too?  The ones the troops don't want to participate in?  The ones with limited numbers of folks that want to do it that further spread our small allotment of money?  Like I said, start a team and get it going.  Bemoaning the that the lack of traction is due to ignorance smacks of excuse making.  Make them educated by having a well drawn up and executed plan of attack.  Not the easiest to do I will admit but if you want something different, no one else is going to do it for you.
> 
> As for the competitiveness out in the army of the west we have a winter sports competition and this summer an inaugural summer sport competition plus mountain man.  3 events driven by the Bde that foster some great competition between all the units.  Not to mention all the normal base leagues and base teams for the various regional and national comps.  IMHO I think we are pretty well covered in the sports dept.



See just having winter and summer competitions would be a start provided it wasn't just hockey, volleyball, soccer, rugby.  Never heard of such competitions in Ontario. As far as base teams go, for Pet there seems to be only Soccer and Hockey and maybe women's softball, intramural ive seen soccer, baseball, soccer, ball hockey, obviously running teams ad nauseum. I actually am in the process of getting a club started, i'm not a whiner, i'm actually being proactive, filling paperwork, writing up bylaws, etc...BUT my club won't be through the military it will be through PSP, which means buddy in my Coy who's on the base hockey team would get to miss work (for practice and games/tournaments) without taking vacation or extra BS AND have his travel paid because its through the CF, but if I wanted to go to somekind of championship in anything other then those sports, my $, my vacation time, etc. 

I guess i'm not just saying that more sports should be played but more sports should be recognised by the CF, I mean GOLF and CURLING are for crying out loud...no one can ever convince me of the fitness benefits of golf for soldiers.


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## Journeyman (30 May 2014)

MrBlue said:
			
		

> ......i'm not a whiner......


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## Biggoals2bdone (30 May 2014)

Journeyman

I love that you had something constructive and relevant to say.


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## Journeyman (30 May 2014)

I was just highlighting you comment for those who may have missed it, buried amongst the whining as it was.  You're welcome.


And if I were to address this self-absorbed diatribe, I would weigh in on the side of the others who see plenty of sports culture still available.  Not as much as back in the mythical 'good old days,'  but as you have alluded to at the beginning, you're only looking for an "athletic culture" that directly supports _your_ desire to go SAR Tech, JTF2, CSOR......

However, I choose not to get involved in pandering to your me me me.


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## Biggoals2bdone (30 May 2014)

Actually I have no plans to go sar/csor/jtf2...I mentioned those units in a point I made never alluding at any time that, that is where I plan on going, which in case you missed it again since you missed A LOT in the entire thread: I am not planning to tryout for any of these units, I do have career goals in mind, none of which involve CANSOF.


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## daftandbarmy (31 May 2014)

Colin P said:
			
		

> _I also think combative sports such as BJJ, Boxing, MMA, kickboxing should definitely be ENCOURAGED in the military, fostering that warrior ethos, and tradition._
> 
> That might fly in the face of harassment course you are required to take, along with taking time away from important things like, courses on how to design your e-mail Sig block to meet new TBS standards.



Or IM training, or CTAT, or Ethics or......  :crybaby:


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## TangoTwoBravo (1 Jun 2014)

MrBlue said:
			
		

> See just having winter and summer competitions would be a start provided it wasn't just hockey, volleyball, soccer, rugby.  Never heard of such competitions in Ontario. As far as base teams go, for Pet there seems to be only Soccer and Hockey and maybe women's softball, intramural ive seen soccer, baseball, soccer, ball hockey, obviously running teams ad nauseum.



Well, Petawawa certainly had Ex OLYMPIAN BEAR which was a week long culmination of the Base winter sports program. It also included non-traditional events such as crossfit and pugil fighting. When I was there (just left this APS), there were plenty of sporting activities. Parking that for a moment, how can you discount sporting concentrations that have "just hockey, volleyball, baseball, ballhockey, running teams." Those seem like a pretty good foundation to a sporting program. What's missing? We also had Ironman which gave folks a goal and plenty of training time to achieve it.

Most if not all major units have a weekly sports program in addition to their PT program. Training tempo gets in the way a lot of the time, but my point is that there are plenty of sporting activities.


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## McG (1 Jun 2014)

1 CMBG has something similar with Ex STRONG CONTENDER every January, and Ex TOUGH CONTENDER being conducted this year as the summer time counterpart.  There are also the Mountain Man, Iron Man and Bush Man series of races in Edmonton, Petawawa and Gagetown respectively.

I think the sport/competitive culture is still there.  We don't need special programs catering to elite (or uniformed semi-pro) athletes as a measure of sports in the CAF.  The measure is at the unit and base level.


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## TangoTwoBravo (1 Jun 2014)

MCG said:
			
		

> We don't need special programs catering to elite (or uniformed semi-pro) athletes as a measure of sports in the CAF.  The measure is at the unit and base level.



I agree entirely. Our focus should be on unit and base level sports that allow the greatest number to participate.


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## Biggoals2bdone (1 Jun 2014)

You are saying what I am saying, but in addition to it, i'm also saying base sports should be more then just hockey, ect... hence my example with boxing when each base and/or unit had a champ/representative.

I'm not saying only the elite should be catered to, although I do think military gyms/training facilities should be outfitted as elite training facilities which in my entire time in the CF i've found most if not all to be pretty woeful in terms of quality AND quantity.  Usually if you buy lower quality stuff its to have more of it in terms quantity...not so with this.

This year, Military World Games sports include:

Aeronautical Pentathlon (we don't compete)
Basketball 
Beach Volleyball (demonstration sport) 
Boxing (we don't compete in, we actually prohibit it)
Equestrian (we don't compete in)
Fencing ('ve never heard of us doing this outside of RMC)
Football (Soccer) 
Judo (we don't compete)
Military Pentathlon (we don't compete)
Modern Pentathlon (we don't compete)
Naval Pentathlon (we don't compete)
Orienteering 
Parachuting 
Sailing 
Shooting 
Swimming 
Taekwondo (never heard of this outside RMC)
Track and Field (we don't compete)
Triathlon 
Volleyball 

The other thing, i've found with some digging that the majority (approx 85-90%) of the athletes sent to the world military games are officers...food for thought.


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## Navy_Pete (2 Jun 2014)

I think we really should just work on keeping all the soldiers/sailors/airmen(airwomen?) in basic shape before we worry about sending a team to compete in 90% of those sports.

There are always plenty of local competitions in the various disciplines that there really is no excuse not to do some kind of physical activity.  I think money is much better spent on supporting a few base teams in a house league then getting a single 'elite' athelete to a world military games, where they will face actual professional athletes who happen to be in uniform.


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## dimsum (2 Jun 2014)

I was very disappointed when I googled "Aeronautical Pentathlon" and it had no flying events.   :blotto:


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## GnyHwy (3 Jun 2014)

The saddest thing about the sports above, is that most of them are individual sports.  Isn't the military a team effort?  ???


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## daftandbarmy (3 Jun 2014)

GnyHwy said:
			
		

> The saddest thing about the sports above, is that most of them are individual sports.  Isn't the military a team effort?  ???



Yes, of course, that's why we all get 'Team PERs', right?  ;D


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## Biggoals2bdone (3 Jun 2014)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> I think we really should just work on keeping all the soldiers/sailors/airmen(airwomen?) in basic shape before we worry about sending a team to compete in 90% of those sports.
> 
> There are always plenty of local competitions in the various disciplines that there really is no excuse not to do some kind of physical activity.  I think money is much better spent on supporting a few base teams in a house league then getting a single 'elite' athelete to a world military games, where they will face actual professional athletes who happen to be in uniform.



The thing with that is it is very dependant on where you live, like i've pointed out before in Pet, if you're not into running, hockey, soccer and volleyball...you basically need to drive all the way to Ottawa (at the nearest!) for any other competitions, I don't even want to think about what its like in a remote place like Cold Lake or some other place similar.  Others have pointed out it is different across the board, although in doing a little digging, i've mainly found more support for my argument:

Mountain Man = long distance, several hours...mainly running
Iron Man = long distance, several hours...mainly running
Bush Man = long distance, several hours...mainly running
RCAF Run = long distance, several hours...running
Canadian Army Run = long distance, several hours...running
Navy 10km Run = long distance, several hours...running
Canadian Forces Triathlon = long distance, several hours...mostly running
These are the ones I found with about only 5mins of searching, guarantee there are more.

I know plenty of people love their running...but A LOT of us hate it too, and only like running when it involves chasing food down or in a game/sport of some kind.

As far as actual sports go, from digging around i've found that yes other bases do offer more stuff, but definitely not all of them are in the same boat. As to the $$ and support issue, that's where we disagree, no offense to anyone here, but I don't see why we have to spend so much money funding several different hockey teams (as an example) AND money for ice rink on base, when there is pretty much always at least ONE ice rink in town AND an old timer/house league in town as well, yet we have our own.  Hockey probably being the most expensive sport we support, soccer is cheap yet we have trouble maintaining fields properly. I would rather cut some of the ice rink money for example and either better equip other sports teams or facilities, but that's me.



			
				GnyHwy said:
			
		

> The saddest thing about the sports above, is that most of them are individual sports.  Isn't the military a team effort?  ???



I see where you're getting at, but look back centuries...hand to hand combat (a singular event) is central to any military, conditioning (i.e spartans) was primarily a solo event as well, i mean many boys/men were gathered about in the same area but physical conditionning, sword/spear practice was 1vs1, as well as wrestling/pankration. Same with the original olympiad which if i'm not mistaken was atleast in part fueled by militaries of the time.  I don't see anything wrong with individual sports in regards to military applications. Lets be fair sometimes its hard to get 5-12 guys all together at the same time. Although we sell the team image of the military to the public, personal experience is many people are just out for their own.



			
				quadrapiper said:
			
		

> How much of the apparent shift can by tied to the move from internal PERI pers to PSP?



I was never in when the PERI were around, but since they were military I can only guess they were all about push-ups, running, smoking and hockey probably, so I would say PSP move is maybe not a bad thing...now if only they hired PSP who actually trained and looked like it as well as having knowledge that would be another step.



			
				daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I agree. That's the secret of success behind a 'house sports league' approach. Everyone gets a chance to try their hand at everything.
> 
> And based on what kind of teams the troops want, you can engage with local civvy teams as part of a fun type of COMREL program. We frequently played rugby and soccer teams from a variety of local communities in various countries and it was good fun for everyone, especially when the 'British Army' lost!



This approach works well in small european countries because everything is so close, but here in Canada it would be more difficult to do because the majority of our bases are in bumf*ck nowhere. I do think it would be nice though if we could do it.



			
				Tango2Bravo said:
			
		

> Well, Petawawa certainly had Ex OLYMPIAN BEAR which was a week long culmination of the Base winter sports program. It also included non-traditional events such as crossfit and pugil fighting. When I was there (just left this APS), there were plenty of sporting activities. Parking that for a moment, how can you discount sporting concentrations that have "just hockey, volleyball, baseball, ballhockey, running teams." Those seem like a pretty good foundation to a sporting program. What's missing? We also had Ironman which gave folks a goal and plenty of training time to achieve it.
> 
> Most if not all major units have a weekly sports program in addition to their PT program. Training tempo gets in the way a lot of the time, but my point is that there are plenty of sporting activities.



you bring up a good point about olympian bear, the only downside of it, is that most units scramble to put teams together the week before the actual event, and even the sports that are more singular in nature are contested as team events during olympian bear. 

In regards to your foundational comment, I get we're in Canada, hockey is everywhere and it is not leaving, cool.  BUT not everyone plays or wants to play, agreed though if you have hockey, volleyball, soccer and basketball those are the "foundation" of a sporting program, but you said it yourself FOUNDATION, aka not the end all be all, more should be added on is what I am saying.  As for the running teams...if it was a proper track and field team with running as a component I would be all for it. I mean we have track and field teams in elementary schools...how does the military not have one.  Also majority of these don't leave opportunities for people who aren't skilled in any of those sports, which all concentrate primarily on the same modalities.

As far as most major units having weekly sports programs, other then maybe the INF, ARTY, ARMD, ENG...i've NEVER heard of this.  For the past 2 yrs other then special training i've written memos for, I averaged PT probably once a month at best, our unit throws any morale booster like PT or sports out the window for productivity all the time. There is a sports afternoon at most once a month, probably closer to once every 2-3months.

With regards to what is missing/what they should add to the "foundational":

Track & Field
Aquatics
Boxing
Wrestling (the real kind)
MMA
I would say Olympic weightlifting also because the CF has a history in it, AND would greatly help mechanics that we use everyday (squatting, etc) as well as strengthen CF members whom many are in need of strength and added muscle for injury prevention.

I could add more but I know to stay within.


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## Crispy Bacon (3 Jun 2014)

IMHO, the fitness culture is just one of hundreds of "cultures" we should be indoctrinated into as CAF members.  Our "culture of fitness" should also be met with a culture of constant self-improvement, continuous innovation, putting the right person in the right job at the right time, continually updating our credentials, education and experience, becoming better accustomed to providing customer or client services, and better organizing ourselves to work laterally, both internally and externally.

Fitness is just one component of a good CAF member.  We've all seen those guys who can pull off 100 pushups but have trouble running more than 400 metres.  Well, we also need to be careful that we don't have amazing athletes playing on national sports teams who can't function at the very basic level at their day job.  We need to be careful that we're not promoting fitness at the expense of education, or promoting fitness at the expense of something more important to get that person to do his/her job.

It also comes down to money and priorities, and I'd much rather see money spent on getting people educated and better qualified at doing their jobs than sending them on national and international sporting competitions.

 :2c:


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## Biggoals2bdone (3 Jun 2014)

Crispy Bacon said:
			
		

> IMHO, the fitness culture is just one of hundreds of "cultures" we should be indoctrinated into as CAF members.  Our "culture of fitness" should also be met with a culture of constant self-improvement, continuous innovation, putting the right person in the right job at the right time, continually updating our credentials, education and experience, becoming better accustomed to providing customer or client services, and better organizing ourselves to work laterally, both internally and externally.
> 
> Fitness is just one component of a good CAF member.  We've all seen those guys who can pull off 100 pushups but have trouble running more than 400 metres.  Well, we also need to be careful that we don't have amazing athletes playing on national sports teams who can't function at the very basic level at their day job.  We need to be careful that we're not promoting fitness at the expense of education, or promoting fitness at the expense of something more important to get that person to do his/her job.
> 
> ...



Conversely we all know people who can run like the wind but can't do a push-up or pullup to save their lives.

I totally agree that balance needs to be stricken between work capabilities and sports capabilities, I also 150% agree with your first paragraph. I'm not only advocating we support high level athletes, but that we aka the CF support/recognise a greater range of interests and sports.  I know hockey, soccer, et all will not be displaced anytime soon, but I think there should be the availability for a wider range of activities/interests/sports at the grass roots level, and that we all would benefit from it.  Realistically some of the sports i've mentioned adding are not that expensive to maintain a program.

Another thought I had was how are teams run in the CF?  I've never seen or heard of sports teams doing team S&C, only thing if ever i've seen or heard of is team practice now and again.  Are teams leaving out one of the major components of performance? Also are their any coaches and trainers for teams? Are they military or civilian and how are they chosen?


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## TangoTwoBravo (3 Jun 2014)

MrBlue said:
			
		

> As far as most major units having weekly sports programs, other then maybe the INF, ARTY, ARMD, ENG...i've NEVER heard of this.  For the past 2 yrs other then special training i've written memos for, I averaged PT probably once a month at best, our unit throws any morale booster like PT or sports out the window for productivity all the time. There is a sports afternoon at most once a month, probably closer to once every 2-3months.
> 
> With regards to what is missing/what they should add to the "foundational":
> 
> ...



In terms of major units having PT and sports programs, Armoured, Infantry, Artillery and Engineers pretty much covers a huge chunk of a brigade. Dare I ask which unit you are in? If you are doing PT once a month then perhaps there is not a CF problem but rather a problem in your unit or section?

I am guessing that you do not like running nor participating in team sports. That is unfortunate, but it does not mean that the CAF automatically has a problem. Wanting to bring back sports that the Spartans practiced might not be the solution. Looking at your other sports, do not expect boxing, wrestling or MMA to come into the CF sports program. With boxing and MMA the risks outweigh the benefits, while wrestling is somewhat specialized. I was in a major unit recently where we had a track and field meet. It was more fun than everyone (including myself as the OPI) expected, but I don't see it as a regular occurrence. It took a massive amount of support from outside agencies to pull off and I am not sure that the juice would be worth the squeeze in the long run. 

Most bases have a good sports program, and there are many clubs for other activities such as Karate under the PSP club umbrella. Once again, if you are only doing PT once a month at your unit then you should look inwards for your problems and solutions, not worrying about specialist sports.


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## stealthylizard (3 Jun 2014)

The sports culture will return over time.  We just had a decade where the focus for everyone was training for Afghanistan.  Now that has come to a close, things may return to "normal", until the next big mission comes along.


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## Biggoals2bdone (4 Jun 2014)

Tango2Bravo said:
			
		

> In terms of major units having PT and sports programs, Armoured, Infantry, Artillery and Engineers pretty much covers a huge chunk of a brigade. Dare I ask which unit you are in? If you are doing PT once a month then perhaps there is not a CF problem but rather a problem in your unit or section?
> 
> I am guessing that you do not like running nor participating in team sports. That is unfortunate, but it does not mean that the CAF automatically has a problem. Wanting to bring back sports that the Spartans practiced might not be the solution. Looking at your other sports, do not expect boxing, wrestling or MMA to come into the CF sports program. With boxing and MMA the risks outweigh the benefits, while wrestling is somewhat specialized. I was in a major unit recently where we had a track and field meet. It was more fun than everyone (including myself as the OPI) expected, but I don't see it as a regular occurrence. It took a massive amount of support from outside agencies to pull off and I am not sure that the juice would be worth the squeeze in the long run.
> 
> Most bases have a good sports program, and there are many clubs for other activities such as Karate under the PSP club umbrella. Once again, if you are only doing PT once a month at your unit then you should look inwards for your problems and solutions, not worrying about specialist sports.



Oh I totally know there's a problem within my Pl, but i'm not in a position to change anything, unless I had some kind of official recourse.  The line we're fed is work is more important then anything else...UNLESS its a Bde/Bn/Coy ruck march or something along those lines.

I guess I should also clarify that by Inf, arty, armd, and eng, I meant not the units themselves but members of those trades.  Everyone else other then cbt arms and especially support trades/purple trades get boned when it comes to PT and sports no matter what unit they are at, because there is so much crap to get done.

Do you mind if I ask how the track and field meet involved so much support? I mean from my POV, it would be one of the simpler events to hold,if you have the following contests:
-100m
-200m
-400m
-800m
-1500m
-3000m
-5000m
-10 000m
these races are all done on the track minus the 10 000m and possibly the 5000m, most bases have outdoor 400m tracks, and they are pretty easily found throughout towns/cities

Long Jump
Triple Jump
High Jump
Shot put
Most high schools have all the prerequisites for these, as well building a jumping sandpit isn't very expensive.

Pole Vault 
Discus throw
Javelin
Hammer throw
I could see being pricey or more difficult to find.

I definitely do NOT like running (majority of the joint/health issues I have are due to running), but I have nothing against team sports, in high school and Uni I actually participated in team sports, i've just always preferred sports that were singular in nature such as karate/martial arts/MMA, powerlifting, bodybuilding, strongman, track & field, I didn't prefer them because they were singular though, I preferred them because of the actual sport, the events contested.

I'm not basing the problem with MY issues solely i'm but one person of MANY who aren't satisfied with the state of things. I mentioned the spartans as an example i'm not saying we should necessarily emulate them in everyway.  I could also easily use the USMC or US army who have MMA programs for example, and they actually have branch wide competitions.

I'm not expecting boxing or wrestling or MMA to be supported anytime soon by the CF, I was just saying I think they should, I don't believe they will though, and that's a shame.

you call them specialist sports and that I don't understand, because they aren't.  They may seem like it to you, but thats perspective I feel the same about soccer and hockey and running, that they are specialist sports.  All the sports I mentioned adding have great health benefits.  I only do Unit PT once a month, I train on my own time 4-6 times a week.  Like I said at my level I cannot really influence my Pl cmdr or anyone who would make the call about PT, nor can I change their views on PT, most people higher up in the food chain of my Pl are out of shape and don't exercise.


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## TangoTwoBravo (4 Jun 2014)

Our unit track and field meet involved the various running events (100, 200, 400, 800, 1,600 (I think) and 3,000. There was also a relay race. We also had long jump, high jump, shot put and javelin. Everyone had to sign up for one event. To run a meet properly you need experienced judges/time keepers. The high jump, shot put and javelin were also a bit of a novelty. Guys signed up and had a couple of sessions to try and learn the events. It was fun, but it took outside support to run properly - the provincial track and field folks came in to help through the linkages of a senior PSP/ex-PERI staff guy. Those connections do not always exist and can wear out over time when they do exist. You can only call in favours so often.

I suppose that a base could a base have a track and field league, and track and field days can make a fun diversion in the spring (especially with a beer tent). Just remember that we are not high schools with gym teachers. The bad news for your perspective, though, is that the running events are the easiest for an army unit to organize and train for.

I understand that some units/sections have a hard time designating a set time for the whole group to go on PT together. They should, however, be giving individuals time to get PT done. The major units you mention, though, make up the majority of the folks on an operational army base. 

By all means make suggestions to your chain of command, and I applaud that you are trying to set up a club for a sport/activity that you have an interest in.


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## Biggoals2bdone (4 Jun 2014)

I'm really not trying to play dumb or anything, just trying to understand the logic of using provincial level judges/refs for a small time most likely non-sanctioned (by the Canadian Track and field association) competition, I mean its not like anyone could have qualified for nationals at the competition based on the pure fact that it more then likely was not a sanctioned (by governing body) competition.  Could you not have spared yourself some time and headache and just given stop watches to a dozen people and bang done, as well as just getting reading materials about the rules/regs of these events?

Don't get me wrong i'm all for having third party LEGIT scores/times because to often I find in the CF scores get fudged.

I'm just going from a few other competitions i've heard of in the military, like the powerlifting competition in gagetown I believe, that was just a fun/familiarity competition, it was no way a legal event by any powerlifting federations definition, because:
- did not use KG plates
- did not use compliant barbells or racks
- Competitors did not wear proper attire
Like I said would it not have been easier to not get all the "experts" from a planning POV.

As to the whole familiarity of events issue, if these were held more regularly that wouldn't be an issue.

The running events are the easiest to organize you're right, but to me that also speaks to how certain people are lazy (people planning things), same with PT, how many higher ups don't think of anything or don't want to try to get any courts or equipment so RUN it is.  I disagree that they are the easiest to train for, is it the easiest to just go out and run yes, but lets face it majority of people in the CF short of being competitive runners don't train all that well when it comes to running, and running related injuries are pretty high up there whether we're talking about acute injuries or chronic/repetitive use ones.

We're not a high school with a gym teacher definitely not...we SHOULD be better! We have federal funding as well as many other avenues for funds, we also have PSP staff and countless members who have experience in various sports.  On the "we should be better note"; my high school of about 250 students was better equipped for sports then many bases i've seen...and my HS sucked at sports.  

I don't know where PSP or whomever blows their money, but NOT ONE fitness/Strength & conditionning training facility is outfitted to a respectable level considering who and how many they are supposed to be catering to, not saying we should have olympic calibre equipment in every gym, but definitely as well outfitted as a respectable university athletics dept in saying that i'm trying to point out that having a sand pit for long and triple jump, a shot put throwing circle + shot puts, etc...are examples of things that we shouldn't have to borrow from a local HS.

I've already asked my CoC if we could do offset PT times to make up for it, so say I get PT 0700-0900, well you could give another person 0900-1100 or 1330-1530...that got SHOT DOWN quick, got told we all have to do it at the same time or no go.

About the club I am starting up, I just got tired of hearing about all these local competitions that I give zero F's about, left right and centre, and nothing that has remotely interested any of my buddies, so decided to take charge and make it happen, although it may be a few months or even a year before we have a competition we will (different disciplines) it will not only cater to a different crowd BUT also educate people about other sports that are less mainstream, which will hopefully bring in more interest and so on and so forth.


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## PuckChaser (4 Jun 2014)

MrBlue said:
			
		

> With regards to what is missing/what they should add to the "foundational":
> 
> Track & Field
> Aquatics
> ...



After 2 pages, you finally did get to listing what sports you want to see added. I noticed one thing: They're all individual sports. CAF sports program is basically built on team sports (save badminton, triathlon). So is your big issue here that you don't want to do the team sports thing?

I agree we need to open some things up, and track and field would be an excellent way to do that.


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## devil39 (5 Jun 2014)

GnyHwy said:
			
		

> The saddest thing about the sports above, is that most of them are individual sports.  Isn't the military a team effort?  ???



Great idea....I'd love a team Unarmed Combat Competition....but we got rid of that with the RV series of exercises and Platoon nights out in Wainwright.


----------



## Biggoals2bdone (5 Jun 2014)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> After 2 pages, you finally did get to listing what sports you want to see added. I noticed one thing: They're all individual sports. CAF sports program is basically built on team sports (save badminton, triathlon). So is your big issue here that you don't want to do the team sports thing?
> 
> I agree we need to open some things up, and track and field would be an excellent way to do that.



I don't see how me not being a hockey player, soccer player, or basketball player,etc = me not wanting to do the team sports thing...
I've already said before i've played team sports competitively before, my interests lie elsewhere but I have nothing against them.  I don't think you would have launched that comment at me if I loved running though. I don't have a passion for any of the sports in the sports program as you've outlined, has nothing to do with team or individual, has purely to do with interests.  You don't hold it against someone or berate people for liking/competing in soccer or hockey or any particular sport do you?

Also as a rebuttal, the CAF sports program in addition to hockey and soccer includes:
Taekwondo*
Swimming*
Squash*
Running*
Triathlon*
Badminton*
Golf*
Basketball
Men's Hockey
Women's Hockey
Old Timers Hockey
Ball Hockey
Men's Volleyball
Women's Volleyball
Men's Slo-pitch 
Women's Slo-pitch

7 out of 15 are solo sports...AND that's counting volleyball, hockey and slo-pitch twice or more each respectively which you technically don't need to, because all the other sports are not divided by sex, aka you don't see a header saying Men's triathlon, Women's triathlon...if you count it grouped then more then half the sports in the CAF program are NOT team sports, so its a moot point.

The sports contested in CISM events all include several solo competitions, but many events that are at the CISM games, are not supported by the CF, and I find that strange, since many militaries world wide compete there, it begs the question why does the CF not support certain sports like:

- Boxing
- Judo
- Wrestling
- Football
- Track & Field
- Fencing
to name a few


----------



## PuckChaser (5 Jun 2014)

Your answer to "why" is that I'm willing to bet not enough people in the CAF would participate or would have any sort of interest to do it. With an era of diminishing sports budgets and slashed national/regional sports, how many of those sports are just too cost prohibitive to get off the ground? Wrestling and judo would be easy enough, but is the money there to supply the gi's for Judo at $150 a pop? Boxing needs a ring, gloves, speed bags, headgear, etc. Renting off base isn't a COA, that's way too expensive. Ditto football, and why would they allow contact football and not contact hockey? How many pers would actually play flag football? I'm betting not many.

You want to do track, awesome. Get a proposal together to run a unit competition. Have it go well, and get your CO to go to the base commander and suggest an intra-base competition. Snowball effect from there.


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## Biggoals2bdone (5 Jun 2014)

I'm def not a SME of Track and Field hence why I haven't tried to run one, but it is a good idea, everything I have suggested up through my CoC has either not been answered or outright shot down.  at least 4-6 months ago I sent a memo up for a Coy or Bn level strength challenge (strongman light basically, involving different military objects like jerry cans and etc) and although it wasn't shot down, i've still not heard anything back and really am not holding my breath.   Also at the moment I am more focused with trying to get my club through PSP Rec up and going, and all the paperwork and what not isn't exactly easy. 

Through the club we will host various strength athletics competitions, including a strongman competition, and the competitions and seminars the club will host is where I am banking on getting support out there to eventually get something going base side. I am just getting held up at the moment by all the paperwork, proposed budgets, By-laws, etc...i've started on most of it, but not quite done yet.


----------



## Biggoals2bdone (6 Jun 2014)

Anyone else have any experience running sporting events? Any problems you faced? Creative thinkin you did etc or anyone else who's started a club through psp rec?


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## Biggoals2bdone (10 Jun 2014)

Anyone else have other sports they'd like to see either introduced or RE-introduced?

on another note,  I have a meeting with PSP rec about the club, and they will be helping out a little with the paperwork, so definitely moving in the right direction!


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## GINge! (11 Jun 2014)

MrBlue said:
			
		

> Anyone else have other sports they'd like to see either introduced or RE-introduced?



What's the one with the ball and long ribbon on a twirly stick? That one for sure. 

Oh, and buy a small fleet of dirt bikes and build a motocross track behind the field house. What could possibly go wrong?


----------



## Gunner98 (11 Jun 2014)

GINge!  I always expected that you were secretly into Rhythmic Gymnastics.

IMHO (and has already been stated by others) the ubiquitous sports and athletic culture started to dissolve when larger numbers of people moved off base and the PSP took over from the PERI staff.

Healthy bases and units still have leagues that attract soldiers.  

Taking a soldier team downtown into a civilian leagues entails a lot of risk - ìnjured on duty, practice availability, forfeits during major exercises. 

Using base or unit NP funds to pay league fees does not fly so there is no benefit is representing the CF downtown.


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## upandatom (25 Jun 2014)

I believe Rugby is active in Petawawa and Kingston, Intersquadron, I may have read some FB posts abotu 2 SVC BN having a team. -disclaimer, I may have been mistaken. 

I am starting to see a trend, yes with more people living off bases, less people are prone to participate in Athletics within the CF. 

I remember seeing the PERI days on the outside, and now the PSP days inside. I would prefer the PERI days from what I witnessed. From what I understand PERI staff was held to the same physical standard (if not more) then the people they were instructing. Where I am now, we have a PSP that instructs us to do certain things, and they cant do it themselves. This was a first for me, other places, PT Sessions, the PSP staff has always demonstrated, shown us, even participated but kept a watchful eye and still had positive control of the group. Im not saying all PSP are horrible, but we need a revamp of the system. 

Im starting to find it a bit ridiculous the people that are complaing about sports in the CF.  How the money is spent etc. its NPF funds, doesnt touch your unit funds, and your unit doesnt pay for you to go.



			
				Simian Turner said:
			
		

> Using base or unit NP funds to pay league fees does not fly so there is no benefit is representing the CF downtown.



Actually they pay up to 75% for one season, (Summer or Winter) and if money is available, they could pay for both, depends how good your Sports Coordinator is (more money is available for your team if you dont get new uniforms etc)

IF your CO signs off on you being allowed to participate on a team, that includes times, dates of practices and states in a downtown league with varying hours of games, its now a duty from  the Base Commander that you attend. Your coach and or Sports coordinator can initiate disciplinary action for missing games/practices. This also includes possible injuries etc that can be associated. Its a delicate balance and most CoC and Sports Teams are good at working together. 


I stand by being in Full agreeance that we need more range days for us non infanteers, we should probably stop spending billions of dollars on corrupt governments but I can guarantee thats another thread in here. 
Its pretty simple, Sports increase Morale, Fitness, Teamwork, Leadership, all which are very important in Day to Day Military life.


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## daftandbarmy (25 Jun 2014)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> GINge!  I always expected that you were secretly into Rhythmic Gymnastics.
> 
> IMHO (and has already been stated by others) the ubiquitous sports and athletic culture started to dissolve when larger numbers of people moved off base and the PSP took over from the PERI staff.
> 
> ...



Maybe the answer lies somewhere in this clip... especially for the PERI community  ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmwJAfHBFaE

Now I have to excuse myself to go wash my eyes...


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## Biggoals2bdone (26 Jun 2014)

upandatom said:
			
		

> So, judging by some of the reactions in this thread, not many of you participate in Sports.
> 
> It benefits in many ways;
> 
> ...



I don't know if you are well versed in equipment or strength and conditioning, but NO, the vast majority of the equipment is low to middle grade AT BEST.  The purchases for equipment seem to be made by a blind 10yr old with ADHD. Local establishments with 1/4 of the funding that our facilities have are far and away better equipped.  I've been to at least 6 CAF gyms, and I can say not one impressed me, and they seemed to all be equipped by someone who just liked pictures in a catalogue instead of someone who knows a thing or 2 about equipment.  

I'd actually like to see a standardization for equipment across the board for all CAF gyms, maybe not the amount of equipment but the type/style and quality + make/model.  Why buy crappy quality stuff that you are just going to have to replace sooner, or will limit what you can do, rather than buy good quality stuff that will last a long time.  Maybe you'll have to space out the purchases but it would be a better plan.  Not to mention listen to the people (gym members/soldiers/sailors/airmen) who are knowledgeable about equipment and take cues from them...by that I mean actual knowledge not just some dude saying oh ya i like this piece of equipment used it before and its sweet.

Speaking for Petawawa alone, the Army fitness centre had/has to be redone (i.e still needs WAY more done), all the barbells are getting thrown out because they are junk, bent, broken, rusted, etc...i'm talking 15-30 bars...thats probably 200-300 a pop, all because they didn't bother buying quality barbells. That's just ONE of MANY issues, when you get many issued they add up financially.


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## upandatom (27 Jun 2014)

MrBlue said:
			
		

> I don't know if you are well versed in equipment or strength and conditioning, but NO, the vast majority of the equipment is low to middle grade AT BEST.  The purchases for equipment seem to be made by a blind 10yr old with ADHD. Local establishments with 1/4 of the funding that our facilities have are far and away better equipped.  I've been to at least 6 CAF gyms, and I can say not one impressed me, and they seemed to all be equipped by someone who just liked pictures in a catalogue instead of someone who knows a thing or 2 about equipment.
> 
> I'd actually like to see a standardization for equipment across the board for all CAF gyms, maybe not the amount of equipment but the type/style and quality + make/model.  Why buy crappy quality stuff that you are just going to have to replace sooner, or will limit what you can do, rather than buy good quality stuff that will last a long time.  Maybe you'll have to space out the purchases but it would be a better plan.  Not to mention listen to the people (gym members/soldiers/sailors/airmen) who are knowledgeable about equipment and take cues from them...by that I mean actual knowledge not just some dude saying oh ya i like this piece of equipment used it before and its sweet.
> 
> Speaking for Petawawa alone, the Army fitness centre had/has to be redone (i.e still needs WAY more done), all the barbells are getting thrown out because they are junk, bent, broken, rusted, etc...i'm talking 15-30 bars...thats probably 200-300 a pop, all because they didn't bother buying quality barbells. That's just ONE of MANY issues, when you get many issued they add up financially.




"The best equipment THEY CAN" not best equipment money can buy(purchasers are trying to do way to much with way to little). If Dumbbells are being tossed and thrown around, then you should say something to the Jersey Shore wannabes throwing them, I understand dumbbells being dropped under "assistance" persay, but dropping them from two to three feet is idiotic. 
Be very happy you have a gym like Pets, could be worse off and have a Cardio AND Weight room half the size of the Petawawa Fitness centre entrance way like I do here. 

I do have to fully agree with the statement of Standardization of the fitness centres across the board. I have been to 6 as well, Pet Borden Kingston Wainwright St Jean(and montreal)  and Ottawa. Some are all over the board. Money being spent in one place where another needs it. Montreals is attrocious, Leitreims is even worse. Even at my current posting, I obtained a membership at a private facility because the fitness centre did not meet my needs.


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## Biggoals2bdone (27 Jun 2014)

I still disagree about it being the best equipment they can buy.

Considering the budget that PSP Pet/DDH has, they wouldn't even need 10% to make that place a GREAT facility (i've drawn up plans and presented them to people who make the decisions, they were all very excited and on board...but nothing ever happened)

Like I said its short sightedness, they see a cheaper priced option and think ooooh we're saving money, when instead they are buying something that is going to need to be fixed more often, that is going to need to be thrown out sooner, etc.

The space is used poorly, and ive been told it was on purpose because when they get new stuff in, they don't want to reorganize things, so they just put it wherever there is an empty spot.

Not only are you asking for trouble in terms of repairs and what not by buying low quality equipment, you're asking for trouble in terms of people getting injured.

The standardization thing I look at being good for several reasons; it means you can take a group and no matter what base you are sent to for courses, or taskings or whatever you can still maintain their workouts, and not have to go train elsewhere, would also mean no one would feel jipped (i.e people in X base bitch and moan about Y base's better gym), would be easier for PSPs who change bases/take new contracts.

Going back to quality, etc, even if you get lower quality things doesn't mean you can improve them somehow, for example, Valcartier has half racks in their cbt fitness corner, half racks suck for general use (less versatile) and most people who use half racks are primarily olympic weightlifters, they are easier to tip over being they have less mass, and fewer uprights...BUT they are cheaper, so Valcartier gets 12 of them, AND to make them safer BOLTS THEM to the floor, the money they save they spent on good quality bars and good quality bumper plates.

Other point I must mention is that sometimes even a crappy item is overpriced...and that price is in line with the price point of a quality item.  the racks at Pet which are falling apart, and not great retail for about 2300-2800$ for the SAME price you could get something HIGH quality, more versatile and SAFER, i've done the research.

and sometimes its just sillyness...as in buying 3 bench presses or more smith machines...when you only have 1 full power cage, numerous broken items, not enough weight plates, buying more of the same crappy bars that bend with only 400-500lbs on them, when they keep getting bent over and over, etc.


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## Good2Golf (27 Jun 2014)

Or you could replace the sit-up with the crunch, and use the 5BX plan with no equipment at all and maintain quite acceptable levels of fitness....


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## Biggoals2bdone (27 Jun 2014)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Or you could replace the sit-up with the crunch, and use the 5BX plan with no equipment at all and maintain quite acceptable levels of fitness....



Although that could certainly fly for unit or military PT, there's no way they could shut down base gyms or do this plan, if we do what you suggest why don't we also just get rid of all ice rinks, and volleyball nets, soccer nets, etc...

We get it, you don't care about equipment, you are to cool for school and only do running, and bodyweight stuff awesome, but others enjoy other things than calisthenics and running, not to mention some people need to be able to properly train for sports they compete in.


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## dapaterson (27 Jun 2014)

MrBlue said:
			
		

> not to mention some people need to be able to properly train for sports they compete in to maintain their fitness as members of the profession of arms.



I'm sure that's what you meant to say.


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## Eye In The Sky (27 Jun 2014)

MrBlue said:
			
		

> We get it, you don't care about equipment, you are to cool for school and only do running, and bodyweight stuff awesome, but others enjoy other things than calisthenics and running, not to mention some people need to be able to properly train for sports they compete in.



 :facepalm:

We're not a professional fuckin' sports organization.  Maybe you missed the news lately...check the link below.  Sort of seems there are more pressing issues than "Base Borden doesn't have the latest *insert sport gear name here*!!!   :

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/gen-tom-lawson-warns-military-cuts-will-hurt-readiness-1.2687806


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## Fishbone Jones (27 Jun 2014)

MrBlue said:
			
		

> Although that could certainly fly for unit or military PT, there's no way they could shut down base gyms or do this plan, if we do what you suggest why don't we also just get rid of all ice rinks, and volleyball nets, soccer nets, etc...
> 
> We get it, you don't care about equipment, you are to cool for school and only do running, and bodyweight stuff awesome, but others enjoy other things than calisthenics and running, not to mention some people need to be able to properly train for sports they compete in.



Back off the rhetoric. You're being close minded, intolerant and egotistical.

---Staff---


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## OldSolduer (27 Jun 2014)

MrBlue said:
			
		

> g
> 
> We get it, you don't care about equipment, you are to cool for school and only do running, and bodyweight stuff awesome, but others enjoy other things than calisthenics and running, not to mention some people need to be able to properly train for sports they compete in.



Maybe you should calm the f$$k down. I tell my troops to keep fit enough to pass the FORCE test. That is all that is required. Do we encourage them yo do better? Of course. 
As has been said, we are not a sports team. Sports teams don't hunt down and kill other human beings.


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## trustnoone73 (27 Jun 2014)

MrBlue said:
			
		

> We get it, you don't care about equipment, you are to cool for school and only do running, and bodyweight stuff awesome, but others enjoy other things than calisthenics and running, not to mention some people need to be able to properly train for sports they compete in.



Don't shoot yourself in the foot here.  Much of what you said with respects to use of space and quality of equipment makes sense at least to me and they are points I have heard at other bases as well.  Some base or unit gyms are better than others and it falls under the responsibilities of the PSP Facilities Coordinators.  If you have valid points that are being ignored while resources continue to be eroded maybe just bring it up next time a CO/Bde Comd/Div Comd is standing in front of your unit and asks if there are any questions.

I know a lot of people who are competitive athletes that are in no way supported by the CF and receive minimal if any support at the unit level.  Myself included.  When my work allows me to work my training into unit PT hours its a bonus.  When it doesn't I've found myself training at 0430 or 2200hrs.  That's life.  I'm sure my non-CF competition is doing the same with even less support from their employers.


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## Biggoals2bdone (28 Jun 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> :facepalm:
> 
> We're not a professional ******' sports organization.  Maybe you missed the news lately...check the link below.  Sort of seems there are more pressing issues than "Base Borden doesn't have the latest *insert sport gear name here*!!!   :
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/gen-tom-lawson-warns-military-cuts-will-hurt-readiness-1.2687806



Never said we were, as such I don't think we should be treated like them either.  At the same time considering a major part of the military's job is to be fit, AND since majority of the year is crappy weather and people are forced to train indoors, not to mention the fact that there are countless folks who are injured and on rehab...we do require adequate facilities.  I'm not talking about getting the newest Nike or Under Armour hockey pads, or fancy schmancy sticks, balls, etc... I'm talking about basic strength and conditioning tools, that any decent fitness facility should have.  Another thing to remember is the money that PSP uses for clubs, equipment, maintenance, etc...primarily money that doesn't come from the fed government, at least this is what I was told by PSP, so the cuts wouldn't exactly affect what I am discussing.



			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> Back off the rhetoric. You're being close minded, intolerant and egotistical.
> 
> ---Staff---


With all due respect, I felt the close mindedness was coming at me from others, who weren't contributing anything of worth to the thread.  I'm not getting into a match with anyone, just speaking my mind.



			
				trustnoone73 said:
			
		

> Don't shoot yourself in the foot here.  Much of what you said with respects to use of space and quality of equipment makes sense at least to me and they are points I have heard at other bases as well.  Some base or unit gyms are better than others and it falls under the responsibilities of the PSP Facilities Coordinators.  If you have valid points that are being ignored while resources continue to be eroded maybe just bring it up next time a CO/Bde Comd/Div Comd is standing in front of your unit and asks if there are any questions.
> 
> I know a lot of people who are competitive athletes that are in no way supported by the CF and receive minimal if any support at the unit level.  Myself included.  When my work allows me to work my training into unit PT hours its a bonus.  When it doesn't I've found myself training at 0430 or 2200hrs.  That's life.  I'm sure my non-CF competition is doing the same with even less support from their employers.



i've stopped trying to convince people that non-CF athletics should be covered, so no I don't think that, do I think it sucks...yes, BUT I do understand priorities of budgeting, as well as priorities in terms of training.  i've never had time to train on during work hours for my own interests, and I don't care/hasn't bothered me. My way of thinking is to those who can get it, good on you, to those who can't thems the breaks.

My main reason for my point of the facilities needing to be upgraded severely, is that A LOT of bases (by proxy their gyms) are in isolated areas, and therefore they are the only or one of the few options without having to drive far, on top of the fact that they (the psp) have the budget to do it, I don't see what is stopping them, ESPECIALLY when I personally know many people who have requested certain items be brought in or upgraded and they pleaded their case well, PSP boss liked what was brought to him but never did anything about it. 

Trust me if I was posted to Kingston, Ottawa, or a real city...i'd have no problem finding good quality facilities, and it most likely wouldn't bother/affect me, but I am not and it is, and I can tell you i'm certainly not the only one who it affects. 

Back to the standardization comment, does anyone have any info regarding what PSP are obligated/mandated to provide at minimum in their facilities? If there even is such a document? Curious because I was told base CE had a say in what went where, and how many lbs could be in X many square feet at PSP facilities, wondering how much truth there is to this, or if this was just a line I was fed.

I understand not everyone shares my thoughts, and I am likely to alienate people with my views, but I don't apologize for them in regards to this, but I'm not trying to get in anyones face.


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## Humphrey Bogart (28 Jun 2014)

Interestingly one of the things the British Armed Forces has done as a result of their draw down from Afghanistan and impending defence reductions has been to increase funding for sports and physical fitness.  Why you may ask?

Because young men who are soldiers need something to occupy their time when they aren't training for/fighting a war.

I tend to agree with OP that we suffer from a lack of sporting culture within the CF, I won't call it this though as we aren't paid to play sports, we are paid to be physically/mentally fit so when we are called upon we are ready to deploy.  

I don't think investing in high speed sports equipment and facilities is the solution.  We have ample money invested in sports it just isn't distributed properly.  I would like to see us get rid of CISM, if people want to go play professional volleyball/basketball/taekwondo/etc... they can doit on their own time.  Take the money from CISM and re-invest it in developing fitness culture at the Bde/Wing/Fleet level.  I'd also like to see us invest more money into events with a military focus.

Events/activities Like:

1.  Canadian Forces Patrol Concentration 
2.  Army Run
3.  Ironman/Mountain Man/Bush Man
4.  Biathlon 
5.  Bde Shooting Competitions
6.  Orienteering
7.  Increased adventure training
8.  Increased funding for sports clubs on bases

The possibilities are endless, what is needed though is an actual strategy to improve fitness with actual objectives and measurable goals.  For an organization that prides itself on "planning" it's amazing nobody can provide any sort of actual direction on health and fitness?  

Here is a radical idea.....

Presently, PSP falls under CFMWS, who answers to CMP.  My personal opinion, CFMWS has way too big of a mandate to effectively manage everything they do and parts of it should be given to others to manage, PSP being one of those organizations that doesn't belong.  

I believe PSP should answer directly to the Surgeon General or one of his appointed subordinates, why you may ask?  Take a look at your local public health unit and who is in charge of it and what it's mandate is.  It's overseen by a Doctor and it looks after a number of different portfolios which I will list:

In no apparent order:

Alcohol
Blind & Low-Vision
Child Health
Cold Chain
Dental and Oral Health
Diseases and Conditions
Eating Well
Extreme Weather
Falls Prevention
Health Hazards
Hearing
Immunization
Infection Control
Influenza
Physical Activity
Pregnancy and Postpartum
Resources for Health Care Providers
Sexual Health
Speech and Language
Sun Safety
Tobacco
Travel Health

Key ones highlighted in yellow

Taken from Kingston, Frontenac, Lexington & Addington (KFLA) Public Health website:
http://www.kflapublichealth.ca/Content.aspx?Id=1

Essentially they look after health promotion (educating people on how to live healthy lifestyles) and also implement programs to achieve this education.  Sounds a lot like PSP doesn't it?  Fact is, while physical fitness does improve morale and welfare in some cases, it is ultimately a medical issue and as such should be looked after by the medical branch.  We have a fitness problem in the military, rather than pretending it doesn't exist lets empower the medical field to deal with it and provide the Chain of Command with a comprehensive strategy to address this issue.


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## Biggoals2bdone (28 Jun 2014)

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> Interestingly one of the things the British Armed Forces has done as a result of their draw down from Afghanistan and impending defence reductions has been to increase funding for sports and physical fitness.  Why you may ask?
> 
> Because young men who are soldiers need something to occupy their time when they aren't training for/fighting a war.
> 
> ...



Definitely not a bad idea, but at te same time, we want pers to have fun while improving fitness and and all the other goodies that sports entail, we don't want to only offer bag drives for sports. Which to be fair some would consider the events you listed as such others would love them.

The major point of contention I have with what you said was high speed equipment and facilities...what do you define as high speed? Because I'm merely talking about power racks that I don't have to worry about holding up to use, barbells that won't bend with what should be insignificant loads on them. More weight plates (iron and bumper plates) those kinds of things, it's not like I am saying we should have a mono-lift or an indoor rowing tank.

There's nothing high speed about my recommendations.


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## Humphrey Bogart (28 Jun 2014)

MrBlue said:
			
		

> Definitely not a bad idea, but at te same time, we want pers to have fun while improving fitness and and all the other goodies that sports entail, we don't want to only offer bag drives for sports. Which to be fair some would consider the events you listed as such others would love them.



Hence why I said the possibilities are endless; however, we are in the business of war so obviously the military needs to keep soldier skills in mind whenever we do any sort physical fitness activity.  The #1 priority of our fitness programs should be to contribute to our operational effectiveness.  



> The major point of contention I have with what you said was high speed equipment and facilities...what do you define as high speed? Because I'm merely talking about power racks that I don't have to worry about holding up to use, barbells that won't bend with what should be insignificant loads on them. More weight plates (iron and bumper plates) those kinds of things, it's not like I am saying we should have a mono-lift or an indoor rowing tank.
> 
> There's nothing high speed about my recommendations.



No it's not high speed but it costs money, something we are already in short supply of in case you haven't already figured out.  What I am advocating is rationalizing the money we do invest into PSP/Health and Wellness etc... and actually coming up with some sort of coherent strategy.  You like weightlifting, so do I and that's great but that is not a strategy/mission for the CF to adhere to.  

There is little if any objective analysis regarding the performance of our PSP programs and that needs to change.  You saying we need to buy this and we need to buy that is not going to solve the lack of fitness culture in the military, the only way that will be solved is with proper governance derived from policy.  

If you want to keep arguing about buying power racks and olympics bars and be "zero value added" to this discussion then that's your prerogative.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (28 Jun 2014)

I stand corrected, we had strategic guidance with this document:

Canadian Forces Health and Physical Fitness Strategy
http://www.cg.cfpsa.ca/cg-pc/Trenton/EN/HealthPromotion/HPFS/Documents/CF_Health_Fitness_e.pdf

Drafted and signed by Rick Hillier back in 08... too bad it isn't worth the paper it's printed on.  I wonder if those OPI's responsible for the different LoO's were held to task on getting the job done  :


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## Biggoals2bdone (29 Jun 2014)

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> Hence why I said the possibilities are endless; however, we are in the business of war so obviously the military needs to keep soldier skills in mind whenever we do any sort physical fitness activity.  The #1 priority of our fitness programs should be to contribute to our operational effectiveness.



I although I agree that the aim should be to ensure our soldiers are in adequate physical condition to conduct operations, I disagree with your narrow view.  The majority of the sports/competitions you mentioned are ruckigng or long  distance events, although this would seem logical to many the vast majority of sailors and airman have little to no need for rucking or long distance events, partly because of their occupational requirement and partly due to space constraints of working environments. Conversely long distance running is pushed strongly military wife , very much so army wide yet speaking to many cbt arms types who were deployed, including our SF, no one really ran more than 20-200m. Which bring s me to my other point, that really no matter what activity you do so long as it improves your fitness it also has correlation to operational effectiveness.



			
				RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> No it's not high speed but it costs money, something we are already in short supply of in case you haven't already figured out.  What I am advocating is rationalizing the money we do invest into PSP/Health and Wellness etc... and actually coming up with some sort of coherent strategy.  You like weightlifting, so do I and that's great but that is not a strategy/mission for the CF to adhere to.
> 
> There is little if any objective analysis regarding the performance of our PSP programs and that needs to change.  You saying we need to buy this and we need to buy that is not going to solve the lack of fitness culture in the military, the only way that will be solved is with proper governance derived from policy.
> 
> If you want to keep arguing about buying power racks and olympics bars and be "zero value added" to this discussion then that's your prerogative.



And maybe you would have figured out that from psp staff I was explained their budget is actually mainly not handed down by fed, it's mainly from CAC, canex, and messes, therefore they are NOT taking funds away from the federal budget for the CAF.

I actually like powerlifting, weightlifting is a completely separate sport, to be accurate I compete in powerlifting I don't just like it , but that's beside the point. You can clearly see by my other posts that I've done more than say buy this or that, so your comment doesn't fly, I merely brought up another subject, and used strength and conditioning equipment as an example one of which I am pretty well versed in. I do however agree that PSP should somehow be held accountable and that checks and balances should be in place in case they are doing a crappy job. 

Also my point in bringing up the equipment is that most if not all military fitness facilities are inadequately furnished, for the amount of people and what we expect them to do, which many others on and off this board have agreed with me about. 

My prerogative is and has been clear just go back and read from the beginning.


----------



## daftandbarmy (30 Jun 2014)

The Army isn't all work:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=aJwcpj-5MTAC&pg=PT22&lpg=PT22&dq=british+army+sports+philosophy&source=bl&ots=xaEzpxHqOH&sig=BcmBmkSot2yBigsW948wE_pxjek&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lvOwU8iINsTZoATYmoJ4&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=british%20army%20sports%20philosophy&f=false


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## upandatom (30 Jun 2014)

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> Interestingly one of the things the British Armed Forces has done as a result of their draw down from Afghanistan and impending defence reductions has been to increase funding for sports and physical fitness.  Why you may ask?
> 
> Because young men who are soldiers need something to occupy their time when they aren't training for/fighting a war.
> 
> ...




I will fully agree with the statement of British increasing funding for sports,  the Americans and Aussies are doing the same. After a war keeping troops gainfully employed/occupied/trained and in top shape should be the priority. You are ramped up in that high gear when returning, Im not ssaying go back to that level, but the Athletics gives an outlet for the soldiers. 

Too often now do I see members continuously cleaning tentage, or doing joe shmo jobs that have been done and are "create work projects" (even not after ex), or not being allowed to workout, train. By no means am I saying open the flood gates and let the troops wander aimlessly to the gym like a zombie apocolypse. Im saying allow them that extra time, let the MCpl run an extra PT session or two, maybe an interunit basketball/soccer/or any sport really competition, or even a practical workout, tire tosses/carrys, weighted carries, log carries, PRACTICAL lifts that can easilyu be organized. 

We have gained many excellent soldiers that went above and beyond what was expected of them because of Afghanistan. Lately, I see many of them on their way out the doors because they have gone from being occupied, working hard, having a sense of worth, comradery and being part of a team to sweeping floors, mopping tentage, retesting the same kit over and over. 

Military Athletics keeps this mentality up of being the best you can, that competitiveness, fitness levels up. 

Some of you are real haters on it, I am not quite sure why. I get it maybe if you deal with the "Hockey elite" but TBH, it isnt their fault, they asked the CoC and it said yes. Thats something that should be brought up to the CoC if thats the case. 

Ill agree with MrBlue on the running aspect. It boggles my mind we have changed and adapted as a military. Our kit is heavier, we carry more, ECM, Radio, Ammunition, Rations, Water, but yet generally speaking we have not changed/altered fitness routines to adapt to this. If we were moving somewhere 10-20-30-40-50km out, it was a chopper or clip. not walking, patrols, NOT jogs. the kits heavier, 

in turn Leg, back, arm and core strength need to be up there. Im not talking a section full of jersey shore juice monkeys, a good variety of the strong, the fast, the agile and the smart. 

IMHO, running 3-5 days a week unless your training for an ultra marathon, trail race, triathlon, etc is not the answer to whats in store for the CAF. I think it is important, but not the end all be all, it does more the mental endurance of our members.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (5 Jul 2014)

MrBlue said:
			
		

> I although I agree that the aim should be to ensure our soldiers are in adequate physical condition to conduct operations, I disagree with your narrow view.  The majority of the sports/competitions you mentioned are ruckigng or long  distance events, although this would seem logical to many the vast majority of sailors and airman have little to no need for rucking or long distance events, partly because of their occupational requirement and partly due to space constraints of working environments. Conversely long distance running is pushed strongly military wife , very much so army wide yet speaking to many cbt arms types who were deployed, including our SF, no one really ran more than 20-200m. Which bring s me to my other point, that really no matter what activity you do so long as it improves your fitness it also has correlation to operational effectiveness.



Again, you miss my point.  I wasn't advocating for any specific activities.  I listed some in my OP but the list is not exhaustive.  Different services have different requirements of their members which is why I don't think we should be painting the CF with one broad brush.  I am a little confused where you thought I had a narrow view?  If it makes you feel better you can add a #9 to my list and insert Powerlifting.



> And maybe you would have figured out that from psp staff I was explained their budget is actually mainly not handed down by fed, it's mainly from CAC, canex, and messes, therefore they are NOT taking funds away from the federal budget for the CAF.



I am well aware of who controls what WRT to budgeting, ultimately NPF money is controlled by the Chief of Defence Staff who distributes it out at his discretion.  So while it may be a different pot of money it's still controlled by the military.



> I actually like powerlifting,



You don't need to tell me again, I've already noted it from your last few posts



> You can clearly see by my other posts that I've done more than say buy this or that, so your comment doesn't fly, I merely brought up another subject, and used strength and conditioning equipment as an example one of which I am pretty well versed in. I do however agree that PSP should somehow be held accountable and that checks and balances should be in place in case they are doing a crappy job.
> 
> Also my point in bringing up the equipment is that most if not all military fitness facilities are inadequately furnished, for the amount of people and what we expect them to do, which many others on and off this board have agreed with me about.
> 
> My prerogative is and has been clear just go back and read from the beginning.



I understand your prerogative is the following:

1.  You enjoy powerlifting, not only do you enjoy it, you compete in it;
2.  You think CF physical fitness facilities are inadequate; and
3.  You want them to invest in better equipment.

I don't have a problem with any of this if that was actually how you framed your argument.  No offence but the problem is you come across as a bit of a brat who is crying because he didn't get the new toy he wanted for Christmas.  I don't think this is your intent but it's how it sounds.  It sounds like you are unhappy because you aren't being afforded the very best to do something YOU love.  The key word being YOU.  

Something I am guilty of and I think almost every member of the military is guilty of is that we lose sight of the big picture and focus on ourselves when at the end of the day, what we want is irrelevant because what YOU want isn't a factor in the decision-making of the big machine.  

I have no problem with you wanting to buy new equipment for our fitness centers, in fact, I mostly agree with you that in some cases (not all) they are inadequately equipped.  What I am advocating is coming up with an actual strategy to raise fitness levels of the CF.  

Think of the 3 levels of operations: Tactical, Operational and Strategic.  Right now you are arguing for something that is at the tactical level (i.e. better fitness equipment) which is fine but how does it correlate to the operational and strategic level of the CF?  It has been stated by many that we have a fitness problem in the CF, I agree with this statement which is why I think we need a fitness strategy to address this issue and some changes need to be made rather then continuing on with status quo.  

You make some good arguments MrBlue but unfortunately they end up getting lost because you come across as only thinking about yourself and not about the actual institution.  The way you frame an argument is just as important as the argument itself.


----------



## ballz (10 Jul 2014)

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> Here is a radical idea.....
> 
> Presently, PSP falls under CFMWS, who answers to CMP.  My personal opinion, CFMWS has way too big of a mandate to effectively manage everything they do and parts of it should be given to others to manage, PSP being one of those organizations that doesn't belong.
> 
> ...



While it makes perfect sense, I don't have enough confidence in our healthcare* to think having the PSP answer to the medical corps would make a lick of difference.... The medical corps is often a part of the problem as to why we have unfit soldiers.

*Our healthcare in the CAF is subpar at best. Not only is it completely under-resourced for the overwhelming workload it has, many of the personnel, civilian and military, are working well outside their "arcs." Yes, I went there, if any healthcare professionals are offended by this they are free to PM me.


----------



## upandatom (10 Jul 2014)

ballz said:
			
		

> While it makes perfect sense, I don't have enough confidence in our healthcare* to think having the PSP answer to the medical corps would make a lick of difference.... The medical corps is often a part of the problem as to why we have unfit soldiers.
> 
> *Our healthcare in the CAF is subpar at best. Not only is it completely under-resourced for the overwhelming workload it has, many of the personnel, civilian and military, are working well outside their "arcs." Yes, I went there, if any healthcare professionals are offended by this they are free to PM me.



Agreed, 
Under manned, Under funded, over stretched. 
I shouldnt still be dealing with a knee issue for over a year now and just cringing when I do unit runs in pain.  I know people in way worse situations then I am.


----------



## Journeyman (10 Jul 2014)

ballz said:
			
		

> Yes, I went there, if any healthcare professionals are offended by this they are free to PM me.


That sounds pretty menacing.  You must have free Wi-Fi.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (10 Jul 2014)

upandatom said:
			
		

> Agreed,
> Under manned, Under funded, over stretched.
> I shouldnt still be dealing with a knee issue for over a year now and just cringing when I do unit runs in pain.  I know people in way worse situations then I am.



Try civie street.


----------



## OldSolduer (10 Jul 2014)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Try civie street.



It's much worse out on civvie street, unless you have a condition that demands you go to the ER.


----------



## PuckChaser (10 Jul 2014)

upandatom said:
			
		

> I shouldnt still be dealing with a knee issue for over a year now and just cringing when I do unit runs in pain.  I know people in way worse situations then I am.



3 months to diagnose, 7 month wait for surgery, 6-7 months rehab. Its not just you in that boat. I've never had a real issue with our medical system WRT sports injuries, other than the insistence that physio be the diagnosing solution, other than spending the money on imaging. A MRI is not cheap, but is going to pick up most soft tissue problems before we're forced to run on them (because no one is going back for another chit if it "feels fine" after a few weeks, lets face it) causing even more damage and delaying proper treatment (surgery or physio, etc).


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## CombatDoc (10 Jul 2014)

ballz said:
			
		

> *Our healthcare in the CAF is subpar at best. Not only is it completely under-resourced for the overwhelming workload it has, many of the personnel, civilian and military, are working well outside their "arcs." Yes, I went there, if any healthcare professionals are offended by this they are free to PM me.


I'm not offended by your opinion, but I will have to disagree with your POV.  

I have no idea what your particular circumstances are WRT your medical issues, but, the majority of our healthcare professionals belong to regulated professions (e.g. physicians, physio, pharmacist, nurses) with very well defined "arcs of practice".  As a health care practitioner, I believe that I belong to an excellent organization, but that is just my POV.


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## Fishbone Jones (10 Jul 2014)

ArmyDoc said:
			
		

> I'm not offended by your opinion, but I will have to disagree with your POV.
> 
> I have no idea what your particular circumstances are WRT your medical issues, but, the majority of our healthcare professionals belong to regulated professions (e.g. physicians, physio, pharmacist, nurses) with very well defined "arcs of practice".  As a health care practitioner, I believe that I belong to an excellent organization, but that is just my POV.



You must be practicing your bedside manner.

I think you let him off way to easy


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## Humphrey Bogart (11 Jul 2014)

ballz said:
			
		

> While it makes perfect sense, I don't have enough confidence in our healthcare* to think having the PSP answer to the medical corps would make a lick of difference.... The medical corps is often a part of the problem as to why we have unfit soldiers.
> 
> *Our healthcare in the CAF is subpar at best. Not only is it completely under-resourced for the overwhelming workload it has, many of the personnel, civilian and military, are working well outside their "arcs." Yes, I went there, if any healthcare professionals are offended by this they are free to PM me.



Why is the healthcare system part of the problem why we have unfit soldiers?  I think you should elaborate a bit.  If the healthcare system is part of the problem as to why we have unfit soldiers, it's because they haven't been afforded the necessary tools and policy for them to be able to do their jobs accordingly. 

As for PSP answering to the medical corps, it's called having a strategy because right now we have none.  I mentioned in another thread that the CF is far too focused on testing when they should be focused on the actual prescription of treatment options for people who are physically unfit.  A test will not solve a problem, it will only identify it.  

As for the testing we presently do, it is flawed IMO because it is based around average probable tasks our soldiers are presently doing; however, is this necessarily what we want them to do?  What should we expect of our soldiers?  What sort of things do we want them to be able to achieve?  These are questions our organization needs to ask itself and once we have an answer we can then begin implementing a test that gauges whether soldiers meet our standards and what the plan is to get the force to the level we want it to be at.

The medical corps is responsible for health and well-being of the force which is why PSP should fall under direction of the Surgeon General.  Right now nobody is owning the problem we have.  They would rather do the typical Ottawa thing of deflecting the problem and pushing it off to the side.


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## upandatom (11 Jul 2014)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> 3 months to diagnose, 7 month wait for surgery, 6-7 months rehab. Its not just you in that boat. I've never had a real issue with our medical system WRT sports injuries, other than the insistence that physio be the diagnosing solution, other than spending the money on imaging. A MRI is not cheap, but is going to pick up most soft tissue problems before we're forced to run on them (because no one is going back for another chit if it "feels fine" after a few weeks, lets face it) causing even more damage and delaying proper treatment (surgery or physio, etc).



In my location we see Civilian Physio, as well there are sports medicine, Kinesiologists etc there. 
Med Tech completes Menisicus and fails each time. 

Doc, Knee needs to be strengthened around it, go to physio (14 sessions at $65, and the Assessment is at $85 total $995)

Physio therapist completes Meniscus test, fails each one, sends letter to Doc saying MRI is required for further consult. Doc says no, just a Physiotherapist, not funding that. Two different doctors later, and 4-5 months, MRI finally ordered, comes back for a positive tear, in two spots. The sports expert and the med tech were right. 

MRI was i think $700,


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## upandatom (11 Jul 2014)

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> Why is the healthcare system part of the problem why we have unfit soldiers?  I think you should elaborate a bit.  If the healthcare system is part of the problem as to why we have unfit soldiers, it's because they haven't been afforded the necessary tools and policy for them to be able to do their jobs accordingly.
> 
> As for PSP answering to the medical corps, it's called having a strategy because right now we have none.  I mentioned in another thread that the CF is far too focused on testing when they should be focused on the actual prescription of treatment options for people who are physically unfit.  A test will not solve a problem, it will only identify it.
> 
> ...



Agreed, too often do I see people on a chit for a month, two months etc with physio and rehab for back, Sprains etc just thrown right into PT 110% risking worsening the injury etc because of CoC pressure as to why they are not part of the unit for PT.


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## Armymedic (11 Jul 2014)

ballz said:
			
		

> While it makes perfect sense, I don't have enough confidence in our healthcare* to think having the PSP answer to the medical corps would make a lick of difference.... The medical corps is often a part of the problem as to why we have unfit soldiers.
> 
> *Our healthcare in the CAF is subpar at best. Not only is it completely under-resourced for the overwhelming workload it has, many of the personnel, civilian and military, are working well outside their "arcs." Yes, I went there, if any healthcare professionals are offended by this they are free to PM me.



I also disagree. I will go further by saying your statement is made from a position of ignorance.

If you do not know or understand what our "arcs" are, then how can you say we "are working well outside" of them? Do you know precisely what each and every Clinician has done in thier training and what thier specific areas of expertise are?

But nothing we say will changed your opinion. So I will end there.


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## ballz (11 Jul 2014)

Okay, deep breath. This is why I said to PM me, as this will be longwinded.

My own personal situation is unfortunately not unique, especially since it sounds a lot like upandatom's. Keep in mind, I am in a command position, so this is not just about my experience. I have 30+ subordinates and I am dealing with these issues on their behalf all the time and its the same thing over and over again.

I had a knee injury that had almost locked my leg straight. I am directed to a WO Med tech, a Physicians Assistant (civie side I'd have seen a doctor, full stop). The WO can't find the problem, so instead of doing even an X-Ray (we have our own machine so no one can claim "costs" as the problem), he sends me to physio. Physio finds that I fail the Lachman's test, suspect a torn ACL, and send me back to get an MRI. The WO still can't find the problem, gets another physio to look at it, he looks at it and says "yup, failing the Lachman's test." The WO decides "well an MRI is expensive, I don't want to send you for an MRI unless we're sure that physio can't fix it. Do physio for 6 weeks and then if its not better we'll send you for an MRI." I specifically ask him to do an X-Ray because some of the pain is in the bump on my knee (from osgood-schlatters when I was younger) and something might show up, he says "no, I'm pretty sure its a soft-tissue injury so it won't show up on an X-Ray." This guy hasn't even found a problem with my knee yet after having two physio's tell him where the problem is, and yet he's "pretty sure?"

Keep in mind, this back and forth process meant months to actually get into physio and start a program. Then I am treated for a torn ACL in physio because there was no proper diagnosis made and the physio's are going off of their best indication. 

Finally, I do 6 weeks of physio, still not better. The physiotherapist is mildly surprised that I have not responded to the treatment but says "there is obviously something else going on by the way you are describing the pain to me." She told me herself she was genuinely frustrated when I was not sent for an MRI originally. I have to make another appointment and wait a month and a half or so to see someone, finally I get an MRI. After another two months or so I get to Halifax to get it and my physio calls me to tell me about the results and says "you need to go to the MIR and get these 'officially' so you can see a specialist'". I have a torn patellar tendon with bone isosceles (fragments) and this is causing a inner patellar bursitas as well. Then when I go to the MIR to get the results "officially," I am told I have to wait 2 months to see someone, just so he can refer me to someone else, as he will not see me during sick parade despite the fact that there are two people in the waiting area.

The whole process took me over a year to actually see an MD, even longer to see the specialist, and they were treating the wrong injury the whole time. And a big part of recovering from a torn patellar tendon is that you start treating it quickly. Finally I get to see a specialist, who recommends a certain non-invasive treatment instead of doing a major surgery (cutting my tendon, removing the bone fragments, and sewing it back together), and the CF won't pay for the $350 non-invasive treatment that could save me from major surgery.



			
				PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Try civie street.



I have. On civie street, I would be seen by a doctor. Not a med tech, not a physio, not a nurse, not a physician's assistant. That WO was right the f**k out of 'er the entire time and the way he handled it was detrimental to a full recovery of the injury. I have spoken to a family member who is a Physician on civie side and was told that it was crazy that I failed a Lachman's test and didn't get scheduled for an MRI, and that yes, an X-Ray would have shown right away there were more problems than just a torn ACL.

Every time I hear a military healthcare professional talk about our healthcare system, they brag about how fast they can get an MRI because they pay a private clinic, whereas civilians need to wait a year or more due to the waiting lists. This is great, except they go through all hell and back to avoid sending you for MRI so you end up waiting a year or two anyway. It was actually passed down in our O-Groups that 42 Health Svcs is being directed by Ottawa to use all other means possible including physio to treat an injury before sending someone for an MRI to be properly diagnosed. Treat the injury and then diagnose it? This is ***-backwards.



I have a young, fit soldier, who was told he "might" have compartment syndrome but between having med tech's and nurses send him to physio, cancelling his appointments, and taking months to schedule an ultrasound, he is over 8 months now without an actual diagnoses or treatment plan. Meanwhile he is on TCAT the entire time and couldn't deploy for Ex Maple Resolve. His chit won't let him do anything but he is also not being treated. The Adj contacted an MO over there and was given some reasons, some good, some bad, but was told "if this continues to be a problem, the members are always accepted at sick parade." Sorry, this may be the "policy," but I have personally been turned away at sick parade by an MO and told I need an appointment (and the next closest appointment is in 2 months).

I have an outstanding young SNCO who is going places, who almost lost vision in one eye permanently because he was directed to a Physician's Assistant who said he had a sty in his eye and gave him some drops and sent him home. He came back the next day cause it was worse and had to go to the civie hospital where an actual MD saw him (imagine that) and said he was misdiagnosed and actually had uveitis that was brought on by his rheumatoid arthritis and it needed to be treated immediately.



When you have med tech's and nurses dealing with torn patellar tendons / ACLs / MCLs / any serious knee injury, compartment syndrome, and rhematoid arthritis, or you have physios trying to diagnose these problems without modern day technology (X-rays and MRIs) and the solution to everything is to send you to physio because an MRI is too expensive, then clearly our healthcare system is under-resourced, overwhelmed, and the personnel are taking on things that on the civie side of the house a doctor would be handling. That means our healthcare is sub-par, if "par" is the civilian side.

So please, be offended all you want, the healthcare I am receiving and the healthcare my subordinates are receiving is sub-par, full stop.


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## CombatDoc (11 Jul 2014)

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> The medical corps is responsible for health and well-being of the force which is why PSP should fall under direction of the Surgeon General.  Right now nobody is owning the problem we have.  They would rather do the typical Ottawa thing of deflecting the problem and pushing it off to the side.


Actually, it is the Chain of Command that is responsible for ensuring the health of our troops. Health Services can provide diagnosis, treatment, recommendations and advice, but at the end of the day, it is Commanders that are held responsible for their troops health and safety.


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## ballz (11 Jul 2014)

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> Why is the healthcare system part of the problem why we have unfit soldiers?  I think you should elaborate a bit.  If the healthcare system is part of the problem as to why we have unfit soldiers, it's because they haven't been afforded the necessary tools and policy for them to be able to do their jobs accordingly.



Trying to treat everything with physio for one. It would be much cheaper in the long run to just diagnose the injuries and treat them, even if it includes a $1500 MRI, than to let these injuries drag out for 2 years and then the member gets released. I was fresh off Ph 4 with that torn Patelllar tendon, the military had spend an ungodly amount of money to make me a trained Infantry Officer, and yet they wouldn't spend the $1500 on an MRI to solve the problem so that they could actually get their money's worth. Luckily, through sheer dumb luck, I have recovered to the point of being functional again, but the longevity of my knee is certainly at risk and eventually will require a major surgery, which is only to prolong the life of my knee before I am eventually using a cane.

Two, if you have a member on restrictions who loves to abuse the chit system, you can't send them to the PSP for the "extra PT." They must be sent to a specific PSP member who deals with members on medical restrictions, and only the people that can send them there are the medical staff. I had a member fail a BFT because "his ankle hurts," (I would assume both his ankles hurt carrying around the excess weight). I put him on IC which directed he do remedial fitness. Except I can't make him do remedial fitness because he has restrictions, and the medical staff won't make him do it.

Like I said, I agree in theory that fitness and nutrition should be part of the Medical Corps problem, via the PSP, but I do not in my heart believe that it would be of any benefit to do so given the current state of our medical corps. Under-resourced and overwhelmed.


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## ballz (11 Jul 2014)

ArmyDoc said:
			
		

> Health Services can provide diagnosis, treatment



And it sure is hard for the CoC to ensure our troops are fit without those two things.


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## MJP (11 Jul 2014)

upandatom said:
			
		

> Agreed, too often do I see people on a chit for a month, two months etc with physio and rehab for back, Sprains etc just thrown right into PT 110% risking worsening the injury etc because of CoC pressure as to why they are not part of the unit for PT.



This is the second or third time you have brought up doing pt while still injured.  Then that is a shitty CoC not a crappy medical system.  I work in your world in a round about way and as an outsider I see little of that in the unit I belong too.  Granted it is only a small sampling of the sigs world and maybe our CoC just cares but it also the same for when I work in CSS and infantry units.  Not wading into the medical world debate because it isn't my lane and I have had nothing but pretty positive experiences for my subordinates and I.  Were there issues?  Yup.  Did we engage the CoC on both sides to solve them like adults?  Yup.


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## MedCorps (11 Jul 2014)

ballz said:
			
		

> So please, be offended all you want, the healthcare I am receiving and the healthcare my subordinates are receiving is sub-par, full stop.



Have you filled a formal complaint / letter of concern with the Commanding Officer of the Canadian Forces Health Services Centre that supports you and your subordinates?  Rest assured we take written correspondence where allegations of sub-par care have occurred quite seriously and none of these letters are just tossed out.  

If you have great, you are being a leader.  If you have not quite being a wanker and complaining like a Pte down in the smoking area.  

Not writing the Clinic CO about a problem you or your troops are encountering with his / her health care system is akin to noticing a problem about a rifle scope and not filling in a UCR about it but instead bitching on the Internet about it. 

MC


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## PuckChaser (11 Jul 2014)

We're probably way off topic from sports, and spliting sometimes just kills a topic, but hey: mods, maybe a split?

MJP: As a veteran of 2 serious knees injuries, I can tell you without them being diagnosed properly they can feel fine in a few weeks (conveniently when the chit expires) and not many guys want to be that "MIR-commando" and head back for a reassessment when "it feels fine", especially if you've been told its just a mild sprain, here's some physio. No followup appts are made in a few weeks to reassess when the swelling goes down, and do the imaging then (as I believe the MRI works better when there's not acute swelling) to either ensure there is nothing seriously wrong if Lachmans/other tests indicate something abnormal. Follow ups need to be ordered, not optional to prevent people from being hurt for 6 months before they find out its a serious injury that requires surgery.... and a 6-8 month wait for that surgery. They could have been on the list 5 months ago.


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## ballz (11 Jul 2014)

MedCorps said:
			
		

> Have you filled a formal complaint / letter of concern with the Commanding Officer of the Canadian Forces Health Services Centre that supports you and your subordinates?  Rest assured we take written correspondence where allegations of sub-par care have occurred quite seriously and none of these letters are just tossed out.
> 
> If you have great, you are being a leader.  If you have not quite being a wanker and complaining like a Pte down in the smoking area.
> 
> ...



You'll notice I said our Adjt was talking to the MO in one case, that didn't happen by bitching in the smoke pit... That's just a small piece of it. I have taken plenty of action, much to my own detriment for being pot-stirrer, on behalf of my troops. Lucky for me I am not a careerist, or if I am I'm doing it all wrong


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## MedCorps (11 Jul 2014)

Good drills... 

Just remember this sounds like it is more than a Unit / single MO problem and your unit (OC / DCO / CO) might want to engage the CF H Svcs C CO to ensure that he has visibility on the sub-par systematic health care problems in his AOR.  

MC


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## trustnoone73 (12 Jul 2014)

upandatom said:
			
		

> I shouldn't still be dealing with a knee issue for over a year now and just cringing when I do unit runs in pain.  I know people in way worse situations then I am.



How is doing unit runs dealing with knee issues?  I'm not a Doc but being infantry for two decades my knees are my paycheck and I don't know many people who cured knees by running in pain.  By not many I mean zero.  

A sub one year knee problem.  Typically that is really minor or awesome lucky.  Feel like turning that into a multi-year PCAT. Running in pain is a good start.  I'd be curious to know what medical professional prescribed that as opposed to several non-impact cardio options.

98.2% of the people I see running on unit PT are usually wasting their time anyway.  I'll wager that stretch of tarmac will still be there when your knee is GTG.


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## upandatom (14 Jul 2014)

MJP said:
			
		

> This is the second or third time you have brought up doing pt while still injured.  Then that is a shitty CoC not a crappy medical system.  I work in your world in a round about way and as an outsider I see little of that in the unit I belong too.  Granted it is only a small sampling of the sigs world and maybe our CoC just cares but it also the same for when I work in CSS and infantry units.  Not wading into the medical world debate because it isn't my lane and I have had nothing but pretty positive experiences for my subordinates and I.  Were there issues?  Yup.  Did we engage the CoC on both sides to solve them like adults?  Yup.



No means did I say all was horrible, Ill agree fully wrt to the CoC push to have full and absolute attendance/participation. I have had great experiences and bad. 
I'm in no way shy of PT at all, even when on a chit, I still make sure to get 6 workouts in a week around the injury or adapting my workout regime to the injury. 



			
				PuckChaser said:
			
		

> We're probably way off topic from sports, and spliting sometimes just kills a topic, but hey: mods, maybe a split?
> 
> MJP: As a veteran of 2 serious knees injuries, I can tell you without them being diagnosed properly they can feel fine in a few weeks (conveniently when the chit expires) and not many guys want to be that "MIR-commando" and head back for a reassessment when "it feels fine", especially if you've been told its just a mild sprain, here's some physio. No followup appts are made in a few weeks to reassess when the swelling goes down, and do the imaging then (as I believe the MRI works better when there's not acute swelling) to either ensure there is nothing seriously wrong if Lachmans/other tests indicate something abnormal. Follow ups need to be ordered, not optional to prevent people from being hurt for 6 months before they find out its a serious injury that requires surgery.... and a 6-8 month wait for that surgery. They could have been on the list 5 months ago.



And yes, when in repeatedly about one issue NOT being resolved or looked after, you do start to get treated differently by unit and medical staff. Even when the injury was documented to occur on Military time, at a unit PT session, with appropriate medical documentation.


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## dapaterson (19 Nov 2015)

Clearly, there are always new sports coming along.  I think I've found one that many CAF members would be happy to participate in - and a Canadian holds the world record.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/canadian-lewis-kent-chugs-to-beer-mile-world-record-1.3325859


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## maloney519 (29 Aug 2016)

Are there any gymnasiums to play basketball or floor hockey during free time on the grounds? I couldn't find a thread with any any information about this sort of stuff.


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## mariomike (29 Aug 2016)

maloney519 said:
			
		

> Are there any gymnasiums to play basketball or floor hockey during free time on the grounds?



Physical fitness is an essential part of life in the military. By maintaining a high level of fitness, members of the Forces are stronger, have more energy, are self-confident, have fewer injuries, and are better able to handle physical and mental stress. Our members are dependable, capable and physically ready to be deployed on short notice.

You will be tested on your level of fitness throughout your career and certain physically demanding jobs such as Firefighter or Search and Rescue Technician have their own fitness standards apart from the rest of the Forces.

Because staying fit is such an important part of life in the Forces, time for fitness training is available during normal working hours when circumstances permit. Most military facilities have a gym on site.

Getting involved in sports is another fun way to stay fit while making new friends. The Canadian Forces Sports Program plays a prominent role in promoting fitness and good health within the military community. Every base, unit and wing has a variety of both team and individual sports availablefor athletes of all kinds. If you qualify at the competitive level, you may have the opportunity to participate in regional, national and even international military sporting competitions. Team and individual sports range from recreational to highly competitive, Olympic-calibre levels.

To help you stay fit and adopt a healthy lifestyle, the Forces will provide you with: 
•outstanding physical fitness and sports facilities
•physical fitness programs and qualified trainers
•participation in base, regional, national and international sports events and competitions
•physiotherapists and sports medicine specialists
•family sports and leisure activities that promote wellness
•smoking cessation and addictions-free living programs
•nutrition and weight-management programs
•stress management programs
•... and much more.

Video included.

Click on "Sports",

http://www.forces.ca/en/page/lifeintheforces-75

See also,

Gyms
https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3Aarmy.ca+gyms&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=PsrEV_-OEMaC8QfihZl4&gws_rd=ssl

Sports while in the Canadian Forces
https://army.ca/forums/threads/89702.25
2 pages.

Bemoaning The Lack of Sports in The CF? [merged thread] 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/114228.0
10 pages.

etc...


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