# Segregation in Messes



## Lumber (4 Aug 2013)

So, this will be more of a comment then a question, but maybe it will generate some lively discussion.

CFB Esquimalt, as a cost saving measure, shutdown the cafeteria at the Chief and PO's mess and combined it with that of the wardroom. Fine by me! Do whatever you have to do to save a buck. But apparently, as an Officer, I would be so upset by the sight of a senior NCM eating near me that they have cordoned off the eating area into two sections. They even put in place theselittle fabric walls as dividers so I don't have to gaze upon such unsightly beings as senior NCMs.  :sarcasm: :sarcasm: 

Anyone else this as taking the segregation of messes a little too far? It's not even a drinking mess, just a cafeteria for cripes sake! I'd much rather shoot the shit with some of the crusty old chiefs and hear their war stories over dinner then sit in silence with some of the weird and anti social or ultra elitist officers who show up.


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## Michael OLeary (4 Aug 2013)

That barrier also protects those old Chiefs from the company of "some of the weird and anti social or ultra elitist officers who show up." The Chiefs may not be as ready to consider that the potential for your gracious company makes up for the added possibility of the company of some of your peers. Conversely, it also protects you from being joined by a bitter NCO who sees you at dinner as a captive audience for his chosen points of discussion. Keep in mind, that there and good and bad options on that path of wide open access.


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## Lumber (4 Aug 2013)

Hmm... never thought about it from the other side. 

Mind blown! I think I just suffered some professional development!


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## Pat in Halifax (4 Aug 2013)

This is happening in Halifax too and now with A Galley closed, everyone is being fed from the same area though Officers have a separate Dining Area. There was some resistance at first from some as people were naturally wandering into areas they shouldn't have but we have to learn to live with it in this day and age of dwindling budgets.
I (personally) believe that the segregation is necessary for reasons I wont get into here but I am sure those who have transitioned from one Mess to another will agree; Generally Messes are considered a privileged platform (What happens in the Mess or is said in the Mess stays in the Mess) for some discussions.
As for Esquimalt, I am told that the C + POs Mess still has the sandwich bar at lunch (???)

Pat


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## Old EO Tech (4 Aug 2013)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> That barrier also protects those old Chiefs from the company of "some of the weird and anti social or ultra elitist officers who show up." The Chiefs may not be as ready to consider that the potential for your gracious company makes up for the added possibility of the company of some of your peers. Conversely, it also protects you from being joined by a bitter NCO who sees you at dinner as a captive audience for his chosen points of discussion. Keep in mind, that there and good and bad options on that path of wide open access.



You beat me too it  ;D

Jon


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## Robert0288 (4 Aug 2013)

So to get this straight.  We're talking about a normal mess for meals, and not the drinking mess?

Kingston has that, and no issues there that I've seen.  They do have a little sectioned off area that I've seen foreign dignitaries use on the rare occasion.


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## PuckChaser (4 Aug 2013)

Robert0288 said:
			
		

> So to get this straight.  We're talking about a normal mess for meals, and not the drinking mess?
> 
> Kingston has that, and no issues there that I've seen.  They do have a little sectioned off area that I've seen foreign dignitaries use on the rare occasion.



Pet has it too, but I guess budget cuts are just getting to the RCN now.


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## ModlrMike (4 Aug 2013)

Interestingly, the galley at NOTC Venture is all ranks with none of the aforementioned segregation.


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## Sub_Guy (4 Aug 2013)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Pet has it too, but I guess budget cuts are just getting to the RCN now.



Nah it's the RCN, they are firm believers in segregation.


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## Fdtrucker (5 Aug 2013)

Wainwright has closed both the Dining Facilities of the Offr Mess and the WOs and Sgt mess last year. Now everyone eat out of the All Rank Dining Facility but there is a divider between the Offrs/WO&Sgts from the Jr NCMs. Edmonton still has the Offrs eating at the WO&Sgts Mess Monday to Friday only


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## armyvern (5 Aug 2013)

Gagetown, Trenton and Kingston merged their dining messes years ago; no segregated seating ... no issues.

Borden merged the Sgt & WOs into the Officer's Dining Hall in 2009 while I was there on my year long french course; no segregation & no issues.

We save the really good chatter for the drinking messes which are still separate else there _may_ be issues.


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## PuckChaser (5 Aug 2013)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> We save the really good chatter for the drinking messes which are still separate else there _may_ be issues.



Which might not be a reality for much longer, if some people in Kingston get their way. Eyes have been prying into the JR Ranks mess for a few years, despite Garrison Officers having 4 messes they can attend...


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## jollyjacktar (5 Aug 2013)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Gagetown, Trenton and Kingston merged their dining messes years ago; no segregated seating ... no issues.
> 
> Borden merged the Sgt & WOs into the Officer's Dining Hall in 2009 while I was there on my year long french course; no segregation & no issues.
> 
> We save the really good chatter for the drinking messes which are still separate else there _may_ be issues.


Valcartier was the same way as well when I was there doing workup training.  No-one had any issues or problems with sitting and eating together.  Sometimes, (gasp) even at the same table.  Talking with each other.

We even had a combined mess for a period when I was in the Militia.  Everyone got along and played nice with each other.  It was pleasant.


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## sandyson (5 Aug 2013)

When I first entered the officers' mess of the Royal Canadian School of Infantry at Borden, I was struck by the history it contained in the decoration--especially the silver. I missed that as I left the service with combined messes years later.  Nonetheless a modern army is no longer a pyramid in social and command structure, so the change is not only necessary financially--though they'll waste any savings elsewhere, the change is consistent with the modern battle field where a soldier is no longer an expendable but rather is as critical to success as many in 'command'.  Likewise regimental messes which insulate soldiers from the combined arms environment are no longer relevant.  Still, they were grand while they lasted.


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## Navy_Pete (5 Aug 2013)

Personally I like the common dining areas; it's a good way to get to know all the folks you work with and talk about something other then work.  It's not all that hard to avoid talking to folks you don't want to.  Happens once in a while on the ships if a mess is down for maintenance (tiling etc) and aside from some jokes about finally getting canapes and martinis or the good desserts, never any issues.

Funnily enough, was in St. Jean at the Mega waiting for basic when they decided to merge the officer cadets and recruits messes into one bar about eight years ago now.  There was a little bit of chest poking but nothing serious that couldn't be sorted out by more sober friends stepping in; but the number of folks caught fraternizing skyrocketed.  Is that still a thing?


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## Jarnhamar (5 Aug 2013)

I prefer a common eating place, it's nice to interact socially with other ranks.  The SNCO/Officer sectioned off eating area in Petawawa irks until I hear the conversations going on in the main area- at which point I get up and go sit on my own by the windows.


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## Old EO Tech (5 Aug 2013)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Gagetown, Trenton and Kingston merged their dining messes years ago; no segregated seating ... no issues.
> 
> Borden merged the Sgt & WOs into the Officer's Dining Hall in 2009 while I was there on my year long french course; no segregation & no issues.
> 
> We save the really good chatter for the drinking messes which are still separate else there _may_ be issues.



I agree I eat at the combined mess in Borden, and other than laughing a bit at the young CIC officers on the weekend, no harm was ever done :-/

Jon


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## Navy_Pete (5 Aug 2013)

Spent a bit of time in the UK training with the RN. When you walked into the wardroom for meals, one of the servers would show you to a table.  They generally segregated the Canadians , Kiwis and the REME students from all the RN guys aside from a few of their version of CFRs and some less sensitive folks.  Apparently there had previously been complaints, so it was their SOP.

Oddly enough, looking at the page three girls in the newspapers at breakfast was fine, but having milk outside of breakfast was frowned upon.

So even in the same mess, it was segregated, it was too bad.  Didn't get to know some of them as a result until our course was almost done, and it turns out a lot of them were pretty decent people.

Not sure that I have a point, other then sharing meals seems like a good way to get past preconceived notions (ie all Canadians are 'boorish colonials' and all RN officers are stuck up...) and get to know people better.  Like you said, you always have the option of picking up your stuff and moving if you want, or sitting with your own group.


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## armyvern (5 Aug 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I prefer a common eating place, it's nice to interact socially with other ranks.  The SNCO/Officer sectioned off eating area in Petawawa irks until I hear the conversations going on in the main area- at which point I get up and go sit on my own by the windows.



Was there on my LSO course last year and didn't even realize there was a "Snr NCO / Officer" segregated area.  Ate every meal in the hall with people I knew from asstd tours, courses etc ... only to get shit on the second last day for being in the "main" hall.  I stayed where I was and ate in the main area with course-mates the last day too.  'Tis silly rule.

Segregation is also why we avoided the drinking mess like the plaque while on course:  2 X Majors, 1 X Capt, 2 X MWOs, 1 X WO and 1 X Corporal.  Instead all the bars within the surrounding area got our business and we "played" together.


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## cupper (5 Aug 2013)

When I was working at the CE section and living in at Cornwallis in the early 90's just before the shut the base down, they merged the all of the eating messes together at Champlain Hall. Officers and Snr. NCO's were partitioned off, and had their own serving staff.

The drinking messes were still separate. At that time I was basically the only one living in the Officer's quarters, so had my own personal bartender for most weekday evenings.

Ironically, after the base closed and was turned over to the local development authority, the Pearson Center offered lunch for anyone working in the business park for a reasonable price.


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## Canadian.Trucker (6 Aug 2013)

My time in Meaford was excellent for combining ranks together.  Since it is a training base there is a separate section for the SNCOs and Officers to eat, but we eat together away from the Jr ranks.  As well the mess itself is a combined SNCO and Officer mess, however the mess is designed so that each group has their own bar and side to the mess and if anyone wished they could close a set of doors and have their own gathering.  I enjoyed this set up because it allowed me to get to know everyone much better.  I never saw any issue with eating/socializing with SNCOs, and there was also the opportunity to separate from one another if required.


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## Lumber (6 Aug 2013)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> We save the really good chatter for the drinking messes which are still separate else there _may_ be issues.



See, I can get on board with this. Although some might disagree, I'm sure the XO wouldn't appreciate some of the things I've heard some sailors say over a few pints!


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## Humphrey Bogart (6 Aug 2013)

Canadian.Trucker said:
			
		

> My time in Meaford was excellent for combining ranks together.  Since it is a training base there is a separate section for the SNCOs and Officers to eat, but we eat together away from the Jr ranks.  As well the mess itself is a combined SNCO and Officer mess, however the mess is designed so that each group has their own bar and side to the mess and if anyone wished they could close a set of doors and have their own gathering.  I enjoyed this set up because it allowed me to get to know everyone much better.  I never saw any issue with eating/socializing with SNCOs, and there was also the opportunity to separate from one another if required.



Some Brit messes I have seen are setup exactly like this.  The dining hall is combined; however, each group has their own separate private drinking area.  From what I saw, this seemed to work fairly well.


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## PuckChaser (6 Aug 2013)

I've been to Meaford's mess a few times, and it should be a model of what a combined mess should be. However, its a purpose-built facility, and any place I've seen talking about combining messes, just has one shutting down and taking over a corner of another messes' building.


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## a_majoor (6 Aug 2013)

My understanding is that the various messes in Wolseley barracks will not only be shut down, but demolished, and a small combined mess of some sort will be established in Beaver Hall (the old Drill Hall). From what I remember of the layout, there is room in the former Quartermaster's stores for a small lounge with a central bar and the possibility of dividers or screens to segregate the areas (assuming the Base commander wishes to keep the sports facility/parade square intact).

Or everyone can go across the street to Kelsey's.


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## Jorkapp (7 Aug 2013)

From the Blue side of the house: Here in North Bay, the Officers and WO/Sergeants messes were demolished years ago in the late-90's downsizing, and all that is left is a combined mess for both eating and drinking. It's a big enough mess to partition (2 bars, several lounges, and a dance floor), but most if not all functions are all-ranks events.


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## ballz (7 Aug 2013)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Gagetown, Trenton and Kingston merged their dining messes years ago; no segregated seating ... no issues.



Not sure how long ago that happened in Gagetown but since I've been here (summer 2010, summer 2011, and May 12 - Present) its always been segregated. For breakfast and on the weekends everyone sits in the same dining area, but the seating is segregated by a divider.

What's always irked me is that even in the same dining area, the Officers/SNCO side of the house has nicer chairs and stuff. If we're going to eat in different locations, no problem, but if we're going to share the same room, then the divider and better furniture has got to go. I always feel like a schmuck sitting on the Officer/SNCO side with the better chairs.

I personally have no problems eating in the same room, or at the same table, as anybody else. For my unit, however, I'm glad the officers have their own drinking mess.


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## Rifleman62 (7 Aug 2013)

Possibly they moved the furniture from the other two Messes.


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## cupper (7 Aug 2013)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Possibly they moved the furniture from the other two Messes.



That's what they did when the combined messes in Cornwallis. They moved some of the dining room furniture from the Officer's mess down to Champlain hall for the Officers / Snr NCO side of the house.


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## q_1966 (7 Aug 2013)

Lumber said:
			
		

> So, this will be more of a comment then a question, but maybe it will generate some lively discussion.
> 
> CFB Esquimalt, as a cost saving measure, shutdown the cafeteria at the Chief and PO's mess and combined it with that of the wardroom. Fine by me! Do whatever you have to do to save a buck. But apparently, as an Officer, I would be so upset by the sight of a senior NCM eating near me that they have cordoned off the eating area into two sections. They even put in place theselittle fabric walls as dividers so I don't have to gaze upon such unsightly beings as senior NCMs.  :sarcasm: :sarcasm:
> 
> Anyone else this as taking the segregation of messes a little too far? It's not even a drinking mess, just a cafeteria for cripes sake! I'd much rather shoot the shit with some of the crusty old chiefs and hear their war stories over dinner then sit in silence with some of the weird and anti social or ultra elitist officers who show up.



Seeing as Officers and Senior NCMs ate at Nellie's Block Galley anyway (as it's too far to go from Naden to the Wardroom & C&PO's mess) and Jr Ranks / Sr NCM's ate at NOTC depending on the training being done. Combined messing will mean less wastage of food (as oppose to all the galleys throwing out the same amount), easier staffing during holidays (some messes close over xmas anyways), and third I hated buttering the officers toast for him (wardroom), put the damn toaster on the other side of the steam line like all the other Messes (NOTC / Nellies Block), Stewards don't have to make Officers beds anymore and it's no longer "full table service" on ship but partial table service, why butter their bread on base.


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## Lumber (8 Aug 2013)

Get Nautical said:
			
		

> and third I hated buttering the officers toast for him (wardroom)



While I think this is getting a little off topic, they butter toast at every breastfast restaurant I've ever been to, and last I checked, any jo-shmo civi can walk into the Wardroom and pay for breakfast.


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## Marauder (8 Aug 2013)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> My understanding is that the various messes in Wolseley barracks will not only be shut down, but demolished, and a small combined mess of some sort will be established in Beaver Hall (the old Drill Hall). From what I remember of the layout, there is room in the former Quartermaster's stores for a small lounge with a central bar and the possibility of dividers or screens to segregate the areas (assuming the Base commander wishes to keep the sports facility/parade square intact).
> 
> Or everyone can go across the street to Kelsey's.



That's the rumour I have heard since September as well. It's a shame since the JRs has been quite profitable from what I understand, and the O Mess is actually quite nice (though the dues are, ahem, a mite pricey).

Palasad is also another decent option. The unit I am with was at one point parading on Wednesdays to sync with the out of town HQ element, while the rest of the base paraded on Thursday. Since the mess wouldn't open for just a dozen people, off base was the only option to have a quiet tipple with comrades before calling it a night.


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## Gunner98 (8 Aug 2013)

cupper said:
			
		

> That's what they did when the combined messes in Cornwallis. They moved some of the dining room furniture from the Officer's mess down to Champlain hall for the Officers / Snr NCO side of the house.



Really, the Sr NCO side maybe!  When was this, I closed out the place in 1994.  I remember the bowling lanes in the Sr NCO's mess with human pin-setters.  

As for buttered toast - not every restaurant puts butter on toast since people have allergies and preferences (Denny's, Husky, Irving do not - all of the classy places anyways).


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## Canadian.Trucker (8 Aug 2013)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> As for buttered toast - not every restaurant puts butter on toast since people have allergies and preferences (Denny's, Husky, Irving do not - all of the classy places anyways).


To link in with the "Do officers do physical work?" thread - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/111664/post-1248543/topicseen.html#new I view putting butter on my toast as physical work and delegate that job to my batman, and if the mood hits me he puts strawberry jam on my toast as well.


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## Michael OLeary (8 Aug 2013)

Canadian.Trucker said:
			
		

> To link in with the "Do officers do physical work?" thread - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/111664/post-1248543/topicseen.html#new I view putting butter on my toast as physical work and delegate that job to my batman, and if the mood hits me he puts strawberry jam on my toast as well.



In the Strathconas, the junior subalterns used to have to go to the Officers' Mess and make the toast for coffee break. probably because all the troops were polishing the officers' saddles for the afternoon polo chukka.


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## The Bread Guy (8 Aug 2013)

Canadian.Trucker said:
			
		

> To link in with the "Do officers do physical work?" thread - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/111664/post-1248543/topicseen.html#new I view putting butter on my toast as physical work and delegate that job to my batman, and if the mood hits me he puts strawberry jam on my toast as well.


"Have you buttered my toast yet, you dirty little man?





 ;D


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## Furniture (8 Aug 2013)

I think the need for separate dining facilities died long ago. If the officers and senior NCOs can't handle eating with the men and women they lead what right do they have to lead them?  We aren't the British army of the Zulu wars, and we aren't the RN of Nelson's time. We are all professionals who signed up to do a job, some jobs require we wear shiny gold bars (or pips and crowns now) and some jobs require a few hooks on our sleeves.


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## pbi (9 Aug 2013)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> In the Strathconas, the junior subalterns used to have to go to the Officers' Mess and make the toast for coffee break. probably because all the troops were polishing the officers' saddles for the afternoon polo chukka.



We went one worse in 1PPCLI (on the other side of the Base): we used soldiers from the duty company to butter toast and serve coffee at coffee break each day. (Just like we used to use them to serve at the table during mess dinners, and before that as bartenders).
At the time I didn't think much of it, but in retrospect I think it was really legacy behaviour left over from a bygone time and an outdated view of what soldiers are for.


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## Humphrey Bogart (9 Aug 2013)

pbi said:
			
		

> We went one worse in 1PPCLI (on the other side of the Base): we used soldiers from the duty company to butter toast and serve coffee at coffee break each day. (Just like we used to use them to serve at the table during mess dinners, and before that as bartenders).
> At the time I didn't think much of it, but in retrospect I think it was really legacy behaviour left over from a bygone time and an outdated view of what soldiers are for.



Are you sure that was butter on your toast?  From some stories I have heard, I wouldn't be surprised if some other substances made their way onto that bread  >


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## George Wallace (9 Aug 2013)

It was common practice in the RCD that the Duty Pers went to both the Officer's Mess and the WO's and Sgt's Mess to prep toast and coffee for the 10:00 hrs Coffee Breaks.  

We used to fight to serve at both Mess' for their Mess Dinners, just for the after dinner 'bonus'.  ;D  Not to mention the booze we would 'syphon off' during the dinners.  But that would be telling.....

Now it is "below the dignity of our soldiers" to so task them, and of course unacceptable under NPF rules, TB rules, and whatever other regulations brought into effect, etc. 

Times have changed.


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## Edward Campbell (9 Aug 2013)

pbi said:
			
		

> We went one worse in 1PPCLI (on the other side of the Base): we used soldiers from the duty company to butter toast and serve coffee at coffee break each day. (Just like we used to use them to serve at the table during mess dinners, and before that as bartenders).
> At the time I didn't think much of it, but in retrospect I think it was really legacy behaviour left over from a bygone time and an outdated view of what soldiers are for.




In the "good old days," which weren't all that good at all, by the way, units were established with soldiers, infantry soldiers, engineer soldiers, signals soldiers and RCEME soldiers, as applicable, to be mess managers, bartenders and so on. Officers had batmen, also all legal and proper and on the establishment, until about 1970 - I know for a fact that the CO's batman remained on at least one unit's establishment until at least 1981. Officers' batmen were tasked, by the officers' mess sergeant and with the CO's approval, on a roster basis, to help out at coffee break and lunch time. It was, as pbi pointed out, a different time, and social and military customs were different. Some soldiers liked being batmen, it was a "jammy go," in their view; others didn't. My last batman was there because he was an exceptional NCO who needed two years of "light[er] (than normal) duties" to give him time to recover from a serious injury. He was the best batman I ever had but he was not a "natural" choice - he was there, and both he and I knew it, because "hiding" him for a bit was, in our collective judgement, in the best interests of the Army. (He retired, by the way, as a very, very senior NCO.)

So these _customs_ were fairly natural extensions of was established practice. _Circa_ 1980, with the full approval of the base commander, PMCs, mess managers and the dining room staffs, I approved the augmenting of  the dining room staff with soldiers to serve at dinner nights in both the officers' and sergeants' messes. The soldiers were paid at the same rate as casual dining room staff, and I think most of them appreciated the chance to earn some extra income.


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## ModlrMike (9 Aug 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> So these _customs_ were fairly natural extensions of was established practice. _Circa_ 1980, with the full approval of the base commander, PMCs, mess managers and the dining room staffs, I approved the augmenting of  the dining room staff with soldiers to serve at dinner nights in both the officers' and sergeants' messes. The soldiers were paid at the same rate as casual dining room staff, and I think most of them appreciated the chance to earn some extra income.



Not really feasible today as the UNDE would raise stink.


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## Edward Campbell (9 Aug 2013)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Not really feasible today as the UNDE would raise stink.




Indeed they would, and I wouldn't blame them. We, the big, BIG WE, the Canadian people, _consented_ to a unionized public service back in the mid '60s. (The federal _Public Service Staff Relations Act_ was passed into law in 1967.) We _consented_ to unions and now we, all, must live with all the baggage that collective bargaining and "union rules" bring with them.


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## Rifleman62 (9 Aug 2013)

ERC:



> ....needed two years of "light[er] (than normal) duties" to give him time to recover from a (serious) injury.





> ......because "hiding" him for a bit was, in our collective judgement, in the best interests of the Army.



My long understanding that this was the practice in the Reg F Army. Another method of looking after soldiers.


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## Eye In The Sky (9 Aug 2013)

ballz said:
			
		

> What's always irked me is that even in the same dining area, the Officers/SNCO side of the house has nicer chairs and stuff. If we're going to eat in different locations, no problem, but if we're going to share the same room, then the divider and better furniture has got to go. I always feel like a schmuck sitting on the Officer/SNCO side with the better chairs.
> 
> I personally have no problems eating in the same room, or at the same table, as anybody else. For my unit, however, I'm glad the officers have their own drinking mess.



Where do the WO's eat?   

Although it may be _common_ in this day and age, it is still incorrect to refer to CWOs, MWOs and WOs as "Snr NCOs".  Only Sgt's and PO2's are Snr NCOs.


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## Edward Campbell (9 Aug 2013)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> ERC:
> 
> My long understanding that this was the practice in the Reg F Army. Another method of looking after soldiers.




It was; sometimes, as in the case I mentioned, we did it because it was in the best interests of the Army, but we also "hid" too many of the sick, lame and halt, chronic alcoholics and the just plain stupid because they had, perhaps, done one really "good" thing in their careers* or because they had "always" been here. More restrictive establishments make it much, much harder and, on balance, the new rules are probably better than the old ones. But I "knew" the old rules and I knew how to make them works, so ...  :nod:

_____
* I well recall one fellow - who had, indeed, been brave as hell once but who was, in pretty well every respect, a lousy soldier - who we kept on, and tried to keep out of trouble, for far too long. I doubt we would even try today, but in the 1960s I guess it seemed like a good idea to those who had enough rank to make those sorts of decisions.


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## Michael OLeary (9 Aug 2013)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Where do the WO's eat?



WOs don't eat, they sustain themselves on the life force of those they intimidate.


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## Eye In The Sky (9 Aug 2013)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> WOs don't eat, they sustain themselves on the life force of those they intimidate.



I'm sure they all will like that reply.   ^-^


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## Michael OLeary (9 Aug 2013)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I'm sure they all will like that reply.   ^-^




It's better than going down the WO =/= Sr NCO discussion *again*. 

I'm sure there's a thread dedicated to it you can direct people to.


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## Eye In The Sky (9 Aug 2013)

What's that saying...

"Never Pass A Fault"


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## Michael OLeary (9 Aug 2013)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> What's that saying...
> 
> "Never Pass A Fault"



I've heard that. There's also one about correcting people in private.


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## Gunner98 (11 Aug 2013)

WeatherdoG said:
			
		

> I think the need for separate dining facilities died long ago. If the officers and senior NCOs can't handle eating with the men and women they lead what right do they have to lead them?  We aren't the British army of the Zulu wars, and we aren't the RN of Nelson's time. We are all professionals who signed up to do a job, some jobs require we wear shiny gold bars (or pips and crowns now) and some jobs require a few hooks on our sleeves.



It is not always about leading them, it is about having willing followers.  I am not sure the Navy folks would agree with your assessment, I know I don't.  I am not sure the junior folks enjoy having their bosses at their tables to listen to the meal time conversation and I know that the Captains of HMCS still enjoy the privacy of the Captain's table.  I still believe that familiarity breeds content.  It can be hard to be disciplined by someone and then break bread with them soon after.


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## Furniture (11 Aug 2013)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> It is not always about leading them, it is about having willing followers.  I am not sure the Navy folks would agree with your assessment, I know I don't.  I am not sure the junior folks enjoy having their bosses at their tables to listen to the meal time conversation and I know that the Captains of HMCS still enjoy the privacy of the Captain's table.  I still believe that familiarity breeds content.  It can be hard to be disciplined by someone and then break bread with them soon after.



I can't argue that sometimes eating at the same table as the one who just jacked you up an hour ago is a bit uncomfortable. In reality though is there a difference between a CWO jacking a Sgt and then having lunch in the same mess, and a Sgt jacking a Cpl and then eating in the same mess? In my personal experience there was no noticeable difference in the discomfort felt at the table. 

I think todays NCMs and officers can be professional enough to live in a somewhat shared environment and still maintain proper discipline.  :2c:


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## Lumber (11 Aug 2013)

WeatherdoG said:
			
		

> I think todays NCMs and officers can be professional enough to live in a somewhat shared environment and still maintain proper discipline.  :2c:



Agreed, but then they have to look over their shoulders before they start a sentence with "That damn Lt(N) Bloggins..."

Again, this kind of banter should be left to the drinking messes. Isn't work, religion and politics impolite dinner conversation anyways? 

Clearly, given the myriad of examples people have given of Officers and NCMs (both jr. and sr.) eating together, it does work. 

So, why the need to wall of the C&PO's at the CFB Esquimalt Wardroom? Is it because it's at the "Wardroom" and not simply a cafeteria or dinning hall?


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## George Wallace (11 Aug 2013)

WeatherdoG said:
			
		

> I can't argue that sometimes eating at the same table as the one who just jacked you up an hour ago is a bit uncomfortable. In reality though is there a difference between a CWO jacking a Sgt and then having lunch in the same mess, and a Sgt jacking a Cpl and then eating in the same mess? In my personal experience there was no noticeable difference in the discomfort felt at the table.
> 
> I think todays NCMs and officers can be professional enough to live in a somewhat shared environment and still maintain proper discipline.  :2c:



Unless it is personal, there should be no such concerns.

If you can 'jack up' your kids at home, and eat at the same table, why would eating at the same table as a colleague at work be any different?


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## Jarnhamar (11 Aug 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Unless it is personal, there should be no such concerns.
> 
> If you can 'jack up' your kids at home, and eat at the same table, why would eating at the same table as a colleague at work be any different?



I understand what you're saying but personally I think there is a significant difference between a parent disciplining a child and a supervisor/leader disciplining one of their soldiers.

It can also be a hard pill to swallow when one's supervisor disciplines them for say immature/inappropriate behavior then sits down with their peers and laughs about something stupid immature or inappropriate they themselves did.  
I used to get up and switch tables because of a situation like this.


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## George Wallace (11 Aug 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I understand what you're saying but personally I think there is a significant difference between a parent disciplining a child and a supervisor/leader disciplining one of their soldiers.
> 
> It can also be a hard pill to swallow when one's supervisor disciplines them for say immature/inappropriate behavior then sits down with their peers and laughs about something stupid immature or inappropriate they themselves did.
> I used to get up and switch tables because of a situation like this.



Combat Arms camaraderie develops that 'family'.  Jacking up a person should not be a personal thing.  If you take it personal then you should not be here; whether you are getting the jacking up or dealing it out.   The Combat Arms also have a very dark sense of humour, and should know the time and place for it.  One must maintain a sense of humour in any aspect of life, and again, know when and where it may be appropriate to use it.  

Perhaps I am wrong, but I take it from your post, that you are easily offended.  I am not sure then, that you made the right career choices if you can't deal with some of the aspects of military life.  The Liberals wanted a "Kinder, Gentler Army" and PC has crept into the military as everywhere else in our society.  The military, unlike other parts of our society, is in the business of killing people, and training to ensure our members are capable of doing so.  Some aspects of the military are quite foreign to other Canadians, and may seem insensitive to an outsider when they are in fact a defence mechanism or black humour.  I am sure that you will find the same characteristics in members of Police, Fire and other Emergency Services, who have the difficult task of facing the possibility of death every day.  If you can't, and need to 'run away' every time something offends you, another calling may be in order.


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## Humphrey Bogart (11 Aug 2013)

I think an important component of a jacking is the tone you use.  I have been jacked up plenty of times by my OC's for stupid shit I did.  It's how you respond to that jacking that makes you a professional.  I remember getting called into my Coy Comd's office and getting a strip torn off me for some dumb shit I did, later on at the mess we had a beer and laughed about it and all my buddies also had a go poking fun at me  ;D

If you can't handle a little criticism then you have no business wearing the red sash or possessing a commission, my  :2c:

On the other hand, a lot of people watch too many movies and think every jacking has to be like something straight out of Full Metal Jacket, this itself is very unprofessional and I have been guilty of this but as you get more experience you will find their are better methods of getting what you want from someone.


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## Scott (11 Aug 2013)

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> If you can't handle a little criticism then you have no business wearing the red sash or possessing a commission in the working world



FTFY


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## Humphrey Bogart (11 Aug 2013)

Scott said:
			
		

> FTFY



haha touche!


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## Jarnhamar (11 Aug 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Perhaps I am wrong, but I take it from your post, that you are easily offended.



I'm professionally offended when a supervisor in the combat arms who can barely pass a fitness test, asks privates what to pack on exercise (and who's been apparently promoted as a means of being off loaded on others) tries to jack me up for something they're constantly guilty of doing themselves.  An example of this behavior; jacking up two soldiers for wrestling in front of their tent for being inappropriate only to sit down an hour later at supper in the kitchen and unscrew the top of a salt shaker so it pours in someones food. Or throws food.  Yup that easily and quickly offends me.

Do you not find it very bad leadership when a leader jacks a subordinate up for something and then does whatever it is themselves? 


You may assume that I made the wrong  career choice, I'll stick by my belief that leaders should lead by example and subordinates in the military should not be disciplined by their supervisors in the same manner that a parent disciplines their child. 

I think  you have enough time in the CF to realize what happens when you treat soldiers like children.


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## mariomike (11 Aug 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I am sure that you will find the same characteristics in members of Police, Fire and other Emergency Services, who have the difficult task of facing the possibility of death every day.  If you can't, and need to 'run away' every time something offends you, another calling may be in order.



The "black humour" after the call demonstrates the high degree of trust and confidence you have in your partner. I found it to be the single most important factor in the work we did together. 

There was also an unspoken agreement to not use such humour with friends, family or members of the public.


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## myself.only (11 Aug 2013)

WeatherdoG said:
			
		

> I think todays NCMs and officers can be professional enough to live in a somewhat shared environment and still maintain proper discipline.  :2c:



In fact, perhaps the unsegregated dining messes might be an environment that's more instructive for junior officers negotiating their learning curve as leaders, compared to the artificially tidy split between leaders and subordinates provided through traditional segregated messing.
Essentially an ongoing, natural reminder to the 2Lt "careful how you treat / act with the men, you have to work with them, rely on them, dine with them etc."

Then leave the drinking messes segregated to permit everyone a chance to unwind, debate or ***** etc.
Just my  :2c:


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## Kat Stevens (11 Aug 2013)

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> I think an important component of a jacking is the tone you use.  I have been jacked up plenty of times by my OC's for stupid shit I did.  It's how you respond to that jacking that makes you a professional.  I remember getting called into my Coy Comd's office and getting a strip torn off me for some dumb shit I did, later on at the mess we had a beer and laughed about it and all my buddies also had a go poking fun at me  ;D
> 
> If you can't handle a little criticism then you have no business wearing the red sash or possessing a commission, my  :2c:
> 
> On the other hand, a lot of people watch too many movies and think every jacking has to be like something straight out of Full Metal Jacket, this itself is very unprofessional and I have been guilty of this but as you get more experience you will find their are better methods of getting what you want from someone.



Also with this, I was always more than okay with having stupid shit corrected, but if the jacker ever devolved to the playground and started in with name calling, I very quickly took it personally.  Attack the behaviour all you want, don't attack the man, treat me like a child and I can become the most ill tempered six year old you ever met in a short amount of time.


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## George Wallace (11 Aug 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I'm professionally offended when a supervisor in the combat arms who can barely pass a fitness test, asks privates what to pack on exercise (and who's been apparently promoted as a means of being off loaded on others) tries to jack me up for something they're constantly guilty of doing themselves.  An example of this behavior; jacking up two soldiers for wrestling in front of their tent for being inappropriate only to sit down an hour later at supper in the kitchen and unscrew the top of a salt shaker so it pours in someones food. Or throws food.  Yup that easily and quickly offends me.
> 
> Do you not find it very bad leadership when a leader jacks a subordinate up for something and then does whatever it is themselves?
> 
> ...



Yes, indeed those types doe exist, and those events do happen.  Yes, you are right in your beliefs.  

Honestly, it is amazing how we preach professionalism and credibility, and then shoot ourselves in the foot by passing and promoting those people.


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## Sgt_McWatt (11 Aug 2013)

The messes being torn down in London is front page (local) news right now because of the number of building being removed from Wolseley Barracks. 

http://www.lfpress.com/2013/07/29/base-insiders-say-there-are-many-reasons-eight-buildings-on-wolseley-barracks-should-be-kept

It will be a loss of excellent gym facilities considering all of the upgrades in Beaver Hall since 2005, however, the building could easily accommodate 3, substantially smaller, separate messes.


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## Michael OLeary (11 Aug 2013)

Ranger Rick said:
			
		

> It will be a loss of excellent gym facilities considering all of the upgrades in Beaver Hall since 2005, however, the building could easily accommodate 3, substantially smaller, separate messes.



The "gym" is already gone, equipment sold and PSP employees gone. The building stands empty right now, although available as a training facility again.


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## Navy_Pete (11 Aug 2013)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> It is not always about leading them, it is about having willing followers.  I am not sure the Navy folks would agree with your assessment, I know I don't.  I am not sure the junior folks enjoy having their bosses at their tables to listen to the meal time conversation and I know that the Captains of HMCS still enjoy the privacy of the Captain's table.  I still believe that familiarity breeds content.  It can be hard to be disciplined by someone and then break bread with them soon after.



I don't think the ships Captains get much privacy while they eat; generally they seem to be monitoring a few different radio channels, looking at the radar, and either catching up on paperwork or being briefed on something while at sea.

A few times during my training (combined MSEng and CSEng) when the course of 20 was attached to a ship they would rotate some of us through the Jr. ranks for meals just because of the lack of space in the wardroom to sit down.  It was a good way to figure out as an A/SLt that you need to chuck sh&t back and how to get along with folks without being a pushover.  For the OJT part where you dependent on the techs (generally LS and MS) to learn how things worked, so it was a pretty important lesson, and carried on to the other phases of our training on board which is mostly self directed OJT.  Was more of a happy coincidence then intentional, but I know I personally got a few mistakes  out of the way (nothing serious) there which were basically forgotten by anyone else as I was just one of a faceless mass.


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## George Wallace (11 Aug 2013)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> ......  I still believe that familiarity breeds content.  .......



So do I.   >


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## Mr. St-Cyr (22 Aug 2013)

Just put a small sign on a table that says ''Reserved for Officers / Senior NCO's''. I routinely eat and socialize with NCO's that I personally work with/know but sharing a table with junior ranks is where I draw the line. A lot of them have a habit of getting too familiar for some odd reason. I do not have that problem with NCO's at all; perhaps they know better. The familiarity breeds content for  and saps the chain of command.


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## cupper (22 Aug 2013)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> I still believe that familiarity breeds content contempt.





			
				Mr. St-Cyr said:
			
		

> The familiarity breeds content contempt for  and saps the chain of command.



FTFY

The more acquainted one becomes with a person, the more one knows about his or her shortcomings and, hence, the easier it is to dislike that person.


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## Gunner98 (23 Aug 2013)

cupper said:
			
		

> FTFY
> 
> The more acquainted one becomes with a person, the more one knows about his or her shortcomings and, hence, the easier it is to dislike that person.



So after 11 days, you want to play copy-editor without adding anything to the thread.  Thanks cupper.  Maybe I meant content and was not using an old saw.  But thanks... ???

cupper according to your profile you and I were in Cornwallis in 1993 - did you enjoy the separate drinking messes or did you like to dine with the recruits and party with their families at the grad parties?


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## McG (23 Aug 2013)

Having attended formal mess dinners in all-ranks dining cafeterias and then then trudged across base to Sgts' & WOs' Mess or to Officers' Mess, I found the atmosphere to have taken an unfortunate hit.  I hope we do not fully do away with the formal dining halls on bases.  There is nothing wrong with that dining hall being shared by officers and sr NCOs for day to day purposes.

Of course, I say that without having looked at the costs.  It is a time of restraint, and we should not be consuming excess public funds where they are not needed.


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## rmc_wannabe (23 Aug 2013)

MCG said:
			
		

> Having attended formal mess dinners in all-ranks dining cafeterias and then then trudged across base to Sgts' & WOs' Mess or to Officers' Mess, I found the atmosphere to have taken an unfortunate hit.  I hope we do not fully do away with the formal dining halls on bases.  There is nothing wrong with that dining hall being shared by officers and sr NCOs for day to day purposes.
> 
> Of course, I say that without having looked at the costs.  It is a time of restraint, and we should not be consuming excess public funds where they are not needed.



Perhaps if funds were pooled, the atmosphere would be improved? Hard to feel at home when the dining hall resembles a hospital cafeteria...  :-\


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## cupper (23 Aug 2013)

MCG said:
			
		

> Having attended formal mess dinners in all-ranks dining cafeterias and then then trudged across base to Sgts' & WOs' Mess or to Officers' Mess, I found the atmosphere to have taken an unfortunate hit.  I hope we do not fully do away with the formal dining halls on bases.  There is nothing wrong with that dining hall being shared by officers and sr NCOs for day to day purposes.
> 
> Of course, I say that without having looked at the costs.  It is a time of restraint, and we should not be consuming excess public funds where they are not needed.



I know that when they went to the combined eating mess in Cornwallis, for any mess dinners they reopened the dining room and kitchen in the Officer's Mess for the event. I believe the same was true for the WO's & Sgts Mess as well.


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## pbi (28 Aug 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> ...We used to fight to serve at both Mess' for their Mess Dinners, just for the after dinner 'bonus'.  ;D  Not to mention the booze we would 'syphon off' during the dinners.  But that would be telling.....
> 
> Now it is "below the dignity of our soldiers" to so task them, and of course unacceptable under NPF rules, TB rules, and whatever other regulations brought into effect, etc.
> 
> Times have changed.



As a young Res soldier I happily volunteered to serve at both Officers' and WOs/Sgts' Mess dinners. As you say, it was generally thought of as a "good go" because you were well fed (usually much more than you could actually eat) and many wine and port decanters were (at least partially...) "decanted" for our purposes., which was also good. I know that in those days we thought it was all fun.

What I'm talking about when  I refer to legacy ideas is the mindset that assumes without question that soldiers should act as servers, or servants, to officers (or to WOs/Sgts for that matter). To me, the day for that point of view is gone.


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## a_majoor (28 Aug 2013)

Of course how the Mess Dinner is run also has a lot to do with how "successful" it is. I once attended a dinner with spouses (a very long time ago) where the PMC apparently thought that wives were also beholden to the rule that no one leave the table until after the port is served. Needless to say, my wife _NEVER_ attended a mess dinner with me again (and yes, stupidity like this turned me off mess dinners as well).


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## ModlrMike (28 Aug 2013)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Of course how the Mess Dinner is run also has a lot to do with how "successful" it is. I once attended a dinner with spouses (a very long time ago) where the PMC apparently thought that wives were also beholden to the rule that no one leave the table until after the port is served. Needless to say, my wife _NEVER_ attended a mess dinner with me again (and yes, stupidity like this turned me off mess dinners as well).



Therein lies the problem. Dinners that include spouses are more properly "dining-in" affairs. Different rules completely.


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## PPCLI Guy (28 Aug 2013)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> (and yes, stupidity like this turned me off mess dinners as well).



It has been a while since I attended a Mess Dinner that precluded one from getting up prior to the toast - and most if not all now have a programmed break.  These days, if I need to pee or have a smoke, I simply do so, and expect others will as well (then again, I have been in long enough that my small bladder and extreme tobacco consumption is a relatively well-known and accepted fact). 

No point in paying big bucks for a dinner and then arbitrarily torturing yourself....


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## Old EO Tech (30 Aug 2013)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> It has been a while since I attended a Mess Dinner that precluded one from getting up prior to the toast - and most if not all now have a programmed break.  These days, if I need to pee or have a smoke, I simply do so, and expect others will as well (then again, I have been in long enough that my small bladder and extreme tobacco consumption is a relatively well-known and accepted fact).
> 
> No point in paying big bucks for a dinner and then arbitrarily torturing yourself....



Just don't leave your name plate sitting at the table when you are off for your break, or you might find you made an odd request to the PMC    Some traditions are still running strong 

Jon


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## PuckChaser (30 Aug 2013)

Old EO Tech said:
			
		

> Just don't leave your name plate sitting at the table when you are off for your break, or you might find you made an odd request to the PMC    Some traditions are still running strong



My DEU/mess kit always has a pen for that reason, and I distinctly remember holding onto the gavel for 2.5 hours because the PMC wouldn't make an announcement to ask for it back....  ;D


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## q_1966 (10 Nov 2013)

Mr. St-Cyr said:
			
		

> Just put a small sign on a table that says ''Reserved for Officers / Senior NCO's''. I routinely eat and socialize with NCO's that I personally work with/know but sharing a table with junior ranks is where I draw the line. A lot of them have a habit of getting too familiar for some odd reason. I do not have that problem with NCO's at all; perhaps they know better. The familiarity breeds content for  and saps the chain of command.


.
If it's communal messing in the Jr Ranks mess I'm against having a reserved table sign...if you want that, take the time to walk to your own mess. Better yet build a mess hall for everyone with 3 separate entrances with a central kitchen/galley.


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## pbi (10 Nov 2013)

Get Nautical said:
			
		

> .
> If it's communal messing in the Jr Ranks mess I'm against having a reserved table sign...if you want that, take the time to walk to your own mess. Better yet build a mess hall for everyone with 3 separate entrances with a central kitchen/galley.



But here's the problem: on most Army bases now, officers and senior NCOs don't have their "own" eating mess anymore. Unless of course you want to buy sandwiches at the bar, or something. The downsizing and centralization in base food services that started about a decade ago has created the situation this thread is addressing.

Most bases I was at when I was still in, and the ones I go to now for work purposes, seem to get along fine with a smaller area set aside for Offrs/NCOs.


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