# Sergeant Major Marching Up & Down the Parade Square - Return to Spit & Polish



## Occam

> But our Army captain is correct in asserting that one of the warning signs of deterioration in the military during peacetime is an emphasis on appearance over effectiveness.



I like that.  

It's the first thing that came to mind when I read the recent mass e-mail reminding NCR military pers that the MacKenzie-King station (outside 101 Col By) is the only bus stop in a non-saluting zone, and that salutes are required at all other bus stops.  I wish I had a nickel for every time I've seen someone in uniform get off one of the transitway buses at Lebreton Stn, and make a mad dash for one of the Gatineau-bound buses on Booth St.  Inevitably, someone salutes the mad-dasher, causing the mad-dasher to drop out of high gear (resulting in a multiple-civvy pileup behind him/her) in order to return the salute.  It's like something out of Monty Python.  (This scene is played out at several bus stops around the NCR - by no means is it solely a Lebreton Stn issue.)

What's that saying about common sense?


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## armyvern

Occam said:
			
		

> What's that saying about common sense?



Nothing worse than stopping and stepping out of your vehicle to stand on a public access highway to salute the National Flag while it is raised or lowered outside of the main gate at CFB Gagetown. There are things we salute; commissioned officers are one of them; population density of those officers really means nothing to me as I think it interesting to watch them try to rush to avoid ... same thing occured during my posting at 8 Wg when they would literally break into a trot trying to get onto the flight line before you got close enough to salute them. Interesting times.

All will be moot once moved to the Nortel site ...


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## Staff Weenie

*Sigh* I'm already seeing the rumblings as things wind down. All those spit and polish types who have hidden in the dark corners for years, are now coming back out into the light. Conformity and snappy drill will now replace functionality and combat capability.


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## OldSolduer

I can agree with some of the points that are made and are going to be made. The truth is we are in the CF and things such as salutes, parades etc are part of the job. 
Yes, we are going to see a return to Drill and Ceremonial, as we should. The op tempo of the last 10 years has seen a decline in our dress, drill etc and a few ceremonial parades in DEU 1A wouldn't hurt.
As for the "garatroopers" (garrison troopers, the kind that can soldier well in garrison but not so well in the training area....if they go at all)......well.....hmmmm.....words fail me.....


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## Michael OLeary

Staff Weenie said:
			
		

> *Sigh* I'm already seeing the rumblings as things wind down. All those spit and polish types who have hidden in the dark corners for years, are now coming back out into the light. Conformity and snappy drill will now replace functionality and combat capability.



Then it's time that someone sits down and writes the combat skill maintenance plan, or at least a way to keep unit chains of command and troops busy with useful work, within the constraint envelopes.

Assumptions - 

1.  A tighter budget; no money, no ammo, limited mileage allowance for "A" vehicles.
2.  No regular operational tour on horizon, i.e., no regular pre-deployment training cycles.
3.  Train to need lifts its ugly head driven by budget constraints; no authority for running course without define training requirements. 

Welcome back to the 1980s, when the parade square, cleaning vehicles/kit, and the platoon room were all equally unsatisfying solutions to "keeping busy" between exercises.

Unfortunately, when the numbers of disgruntled troops increases because they are unsatisfied with garrison life; there's an exponential increase in the pers admin burden the minority creates for the chain of command. Time which could be spent on planning low budget local training gets consumed writing C&P memos and recommendations for BPSO interviews (etc., etc., etc.) With most officers and many NCOs tied to desk and computers by this surge in admin, and still no frequent exercises, you're left with the remaining unit staff and a lot of bored troops and nothing on the schedule for six weeks before a change of command. Unfortunately, in the absence of a more defined plan, the "solution" becomes obvious to any Sergeant Major trying to keep troops busy enough to reduce extra admin and disciplinary problems (at least during working hours).

New solutions are always welcome, and the Army Journal is always looking for articles.


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## armyvern

Staff Weenie said:
			
		

> *Sigh* I'm already seeing the rumblings as things wind down. All those spit and polish types who have hidden in the dark corners for years, are now coming back out into the light. Conformity and snappy drill will now replace functionality and combat capability.



LOL. You're talking to a CSM --- what the heck did you expect me to respond like?? "Conformity" and discipline is the cornerstone of a well-disciplined and professional force --- always has been. Google the origin of 'decimate'.

It is, after all, a two way street. Outside of those bus stops ... the troops would hang if they didn't salute an Officer even if their NCM hands were full of boxes of work files etc ...

I'm pretty sure it wasn't the troops complaining about having to salute ...


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## OldSolduer

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Here I was hoping this would end in more discussion on effective/in-effective running shoes... nope, random executions...
> 
> Back to the original topic though, it's a rather flimsy excuse to ban the shoes... there's already plenty of variation in running shoes... one has to wonder, what sort of shift would result in them being re-allowed?



That's not what the article intended. The intent of this particular thread is to discuss the way ahead in a post combat mission Afghanistan CF. You will see the "spit and polish" types appear, and I'm one of them, to a certain extent (not extreme). What's the problem with a few ceremonial parades ie Trooping of the Colour?
Besides, it was the US Army that banned them, NOT the CF. What the US Army does WRT to dress and deportment etc is not our concern. Our concern is the CF.


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## Good2Golf

For some reason, this reminds me of the kind of person who will argue at mess meetings that you should wear socks (preferably black) with sandals.  What is it with some people having hang-ups about feet/toes?  ???  don't we have better things to worry about?


Unprofessional?  Really?  You mean as bad as the chunky plastic frame glasses the US Army issues?  :


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## Haggis

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> That's not what the article intended. The intent of this particular thread is to discuss the way ahead in a post combat mission Afghanistan CF. You will see the "spit and polish" types appear, and I'm one of them, to a certain extent (not extreme). What's the problem with a few ceremonial parades ie Trooping of the Colour?



I'm one of them spit & polish types, too, Jim.  But when the rubber meets the road, I'm a field soldier first.  I'd daresay that most of today's Army RSMs are similar in thought.  We see drill and ceremonial as crucial to maintaining unit pride, celebrating history and honouring our fallen.  But we firstly see our role as preparing our units to fight the next war (not the last war).

Yes, conformity will return.  Troops will say to me "non issue kit worked in Afghanistan".  I'll say, "issue kit worked, too - and it's free!".  Now's our chance to use the system to make issued kit the gear of choice before we go somewhere nasty again and re-learn a bunch of hard lessons.

Now - where's my pace stick?


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## OldSolduer

Haggis said:
			
		

> Now - where's my pace stick?



Mine is in my truck. I tend not to carry it  in CADPAT on the Wing.

BTW I agree with your assessment of the situation.


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## GAP

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Unprofessional?  Really?  You mean as bad as the chunky plastic frame glasses the US Army issues?  :



Hey!! I broke 4 pair of those!!! Ever try wearing them during a monsoon?......need wipers....


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## Pusser

Staff Weenie said:
			
		

> *Sigh* I'm already seeing the rumblings as things wind down. All those spit and polish types who have hidden in the dark corners for years, are now coming back out into the light. Conformity and snappy drill will now replace functionality and combat capability.



I've never understood why some folks seem to feel that these two concepts are mutually exclusive.  I've always argued that a professional serviceman (or woman) needs to be good both in the field AND in garrison.  The two go together and should not be separated.  Although I will admit that there are plenty of "garret troopers" who look great on parade, but are useless on operations, I can honestly say that I've never found the the reverse to be true.  In my experience a screw-up in garrison is a screw-up on operations as well.

I'm one of those folks who believes we've let the pendulum swing too far in one direction.  Seeing public parades of soldiers downtown in CADPAT or change of command parades in home port with sailors in NCDs rots my socks down to the bottom of my military soul.  The excuse is that it's easier and it proves we're "operationally-focused."  What utter crap! To me it says, "we're lazy and have difficulty looking after ourselves!"  Furthermore, I have never understood why anyone sitting in an office should wear anything other than service dress.  Environmental clothing is for use when you are working in a particular environment that requires it.  CADPAT at a desk on the 11th floor at NDHQ is ridiculous.

Having said the above (and in order to get back on topic), I will point out that all clothing has a time and place.  If soldiers wish to do PT in a particular type of shoe, I think they should be allowed to do so provided that it doesn't interfere with the type of training being conducted, that the soldier is properly versed in the correct use of the item and that it does not lead to injury.  If the Army wants to dictate a particular type of shoe, then it really should provide that shoe as an issue item.


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## Staff Weenie

Don't get me wrong folks - wearing DEU in a pure office job is fine. It projects at atmosphere of professionalism, and I've no problem with that (except for wool pants in Ottawa in humid 30 degree weather). And I've no problem with ensuring that the hair is cut, the shave is close, and the boots are polished. Wearing Ray-Bans on top of your head ain't on either.

It's that we've spent a lot of time pushing hard to get training focussed on producing capable people to support operations. We only have so many training days available, I don't want to lose time to needless pomp and pagentry. Or, lining up troops to make sure that only the black inner socks are worn vice other products.

As for the 'shoes' - I'm tempted to try them - I wonder what they would do with plantar fasciitis???


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## Edward Campbell

Topic: Sergeant Major Marching Up & Down the Parade Square - Return to Spit & Polish - see here.


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## Oldgateboatdriver

Pusser said:
			
		

> ... or change of command parades in home port with sailors in NCDs ...



Good lord! Looks like I left the Navy at the right time . We would have been shot in my days if we did our day work onboard a ship in harbour in anything else than the appropriate DEU/CF (yes, long sleeves shirt and tie in winter) or failed to put it on when just traveling from the Dockyard to Stad.


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## aesop081

CoC parades.........yes, another worthwhile effort  :

Lost 3 days of training, at a critical time for my unit, because someone showed up for work, told us how busy we are and then went on leave for 3 weeks.

I would rather have had the 3 days to get my troops ready for the war we're sending them to.


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## SupersonicMax

In my world, every single day is training.  Any time spent on "Marching up and down the Parade Square" or "Spit and polish" is training lost.  I really don't care if someones boots are black from polish or grey from the dust.  As long as they do their job properly.


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## Edward Campbell

Pusser said:
			
		

> I've never understood why some folks seem to feel that these two concepts are mutually exclusive.  I've always argued that a professional serviceman (or woman) needs to be good both in the field AND in garrison.  The two go together and should not be separated.  Although I will admit that there are plenty of "garret troopers" who look great on parade, but are useless on operations, I can honestly say that I've never found the the reverse to be true.  In my experience a screw-up in garrison is a screw-up on operations as well.
> 
> I'm one of those folks who believes we've let the pendulum swing too far in one direction.  Seeing public parades of soldiers downtown in CADPAT or change of command parades in home port with sailors in NCDs rots my socks down to the bottom of my military soul.  The excuse is that it's easier and it proves we're "operationally-focused."  What utter crap! To me it says, "we're lazy and have difficulty looking after ourselves!"  Furthermore, I have never understood why anyone sitting in an office should wear anything other than service dress.  Environmental clothing is for use when you are working in a particular environment that requires it.  CADPAT at a desk on the 11th floor at NDHQ is ridiculous.
> 
> Having said the above (and in order to get back on topic), I will point out that all clothing has a time and place.  If soldiers wish to do PT in a particular type of shoe, I think they should be allowed to do so provided that it doesn't interfere with the type of training being conducted, that the soldier is properly versed in the correct use of the item and that it does not lead to injury.  If the Army wants to dictate a particular type of shoe, then it really should provide that shoe as an issue item.




I'm with Pusser on this one. Our military personnel, of all sorts, need to be able to do it all, and do it all right, as and when required. There are times and places for everything - including parades in the Air Force. When it's the _right_ time then I expect that all officers and NCOs, of all services, will want to do it well, which is to say _do it right_.

I also agree with Pusser re: appropriate dress of the day for various places and forms of duty.


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## aesop081

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> When it's the _right_ time then I expect that all officers and NCOs, of all services, will want to do it well, which is to say _do it right_.



For me it is not a question of doing it "right" or doing it "wrong", it is a question of "more important things to do. I recently witnessed a USN change of command and they didn't run parade practice for 2 days and then used an entire day for parade and related events. They gathered everyone involved in a hangar, said a few words, signed documents and carried on. I would hardly accuse them of doing it "wrong".

We use enough of our soldier's time on things that really matter and often run short, let us not use more on things like parades and dog & pony shows for commanders to look over their fiefdoms. That sort of thing belongs in another time..........


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## Fishbone Jones

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> In my world, every single day is training.  Any time spent on "Marching up and down the Parade Square" or "Spit and polish" is training lost.  I really don't care if someones boots are black from polish or grey from the dust.  As long as they do their job properly.



Yeah, we've been over this before and we know your thoughts. As Edward says, there's a time and a place for everything in the military, and when expected to do it, you're expected to do it right. I've been mortified and embarassed when 'other arms' are suddenly called to parades for funerals, etc and are total bags of shit, drill and deportment wise, because "They had better things to do" instead of paying attention TO THE BASICS. I've spent time in the AirForce and I've seen pilots on parade :

You're paid to do a fucking job. And "to do that job properly" also includes staying current and precise in ALL aspects of your job, including drill and deportment. 

Want to fly and be a gluebag? Join Air Canada. I've got no time for Tom Hank's Top Gun wannabees.


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## Edward Campbell

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> For me it is not a question of doing it "right" or doing it "wrong", it is a question of "more important things to do. I recently witnessed a USN change of command and they didn't run parade practice for 2 days and then used an entire day for parade and related events. They gathered everyone involved in a hangar, said a few words, signed documents and carried on. I would hardly accuse them of doing it "wrong".
> 
> We use enough of our soldier's time on things that really matter and often run short, let us not use more on things like parades and dog & pony shows for commanders to look over their fiefdoms. That sort of thing belongs in another time..........




I do not disagree that there might be better ways to do the right things and to do things right. Ceremonies, especially, can, perhaps even should evolve to suit our circumstances. What might be suitable for an infantry battalion may not _fit_ a flying squadron. But, whatever we you decide to do, there is a "right" and "wrong" way to do it.


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## aesop081

recceguy said:
			
		

> . I've spent time in the AirForce and I've seen pilots on parade :



I've spent time in the army and seen soldiers on parade. Seems to me they fight very well regardless of their performance on the parade square.


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## daftandbarmy

With a degree of common sense applied which, I admit, seems to desert us in the military from time to time, I tend to agree with General George:

“If you can't get them to salute when they should salute and wear the clothes you tell them to wear, how are you going to get them to die for their country?” 

 General George S. Patton

http://thinkexist.com/quotation/if_you_can-t_get_them_to_salute_when_they_should/147747.html


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## Pusser

Again I'm seeing folks separating parades and spit and polish from all the other aspects of military service.  They're not separate and they're not additional.  Parades and spit and polish are part of the very fabric of military service.  We need to do all of it well.  If practice is required to do it well, then we should practice.  However, I will concede that perhaps we practice too much.  Far too often, the only ones really needing the practice are the officers in command positions who seem to have no clue how drill movements work ( :facepalm: it's not that freaking complicated!).

I was on a course years ago that included drill instruction for officers.  Many of my compatriots had a great deal of difficulty getting the commands right.  I concluded that they weren't very good at memorizing some of the more complicated ones, so I went to one of the "drill instructors" and suggested that perhaps teaching what the commands actually mean and how they function within the whole parade structure would help them to understand and, therefore, be able to better remember the commands.  In other words, if you know what "move to the right in column of route" actually means, it's easier to remember that than if it's just a string of words you have to put together at a certain point in the program.  I soon gathered from the blank look on their faces, that they didn't understand either.  Oh well...

Not to put too fine a point on it, but who wants to be the guy at his buddy's funeral who doesn't think spit and polish are important?  This stuff is an important part of who we are and the way we show our respect for ourselves.


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## Fishbone Jones

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I've spent time in the army and seen soldiers on parade. Seems to me they fight very well regardless of their performance on the parade square.



However, their performance on the parade square is also of the same high standard. They do not exchange one for the other, rather they see it as a complete package of being a member in the CF. Which is why those combat soldiers, that fight very well, are also the CF standard for drill and deportment. They seem to be able to do both, with equal aplomb, regardless of any other burdens that are placed on them.


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## aesop081

Pusser said:
			
		

> Again I'm seeing folks separating parades and spit and polish from all the other aspects of military service.



I am indeed separating the two. I separate them because i view parades as archaic and unnecessary. I do them and do them well because that is what is expected and, as long as it is so, i will continue to do them to the highest standard. I am all for traditions but i can think of many more important ones.

Parades remain a waste of mine and my soldier's time. We are not show horses.


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## lethalLemon

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I am indeed separating the two. I separate them because i view parades as archaic and unnecessary. I do them and do them well because that is what is expected and, as long as it is so, i will continue to do them to the highest standard. I am all for traditions but i can think of many more important ones.
> 
> Parades remain a waste of mine and my soldier's time. We are not show horses.



Reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend of mine who's a Trooper with The Blues & Royals... After the Trooping of the Guard for Her Majesty's birthday, he said he's never hated his life so much.


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## Occam

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I am indeed separating the two. I separate them because i view parades as archaic and unnecessary. I do them and do them well because that is what is expected and, as long as it is so, i will continue to do them to the highest standard. I am all for traditions but i can think of many more important ones.
> 
> Parades remain a waste of mine and my soldier's time. We are not show horses.



Mark this date on the calendar, Cdn Aviator and I are in agreement on something.   ;D

Some weeks ago, over a hundred pers from Ottawa were tasked for a parade.  One full day's practice, and one full day for the parade.

A full day for a parade, you ask?

Yup.  Got bussed down to Kingston (two hours away) early in the morning, got a few practice runs in, got changed, did the parade, and returned.  Apparently the box lunches that were ordered didn't show up.

Neither did the bottled water.

The General got his promotion parade, though.


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## aesop081

mariomike said:
			
		

> D and B that quote from WW2 reminds me of something I read about recruits selected for RCAF aircrew training practicing drill during the war. The instructor said, "How do you expect to bomb in formation, if you can't even walk in one!"
> 
> It was a light-hearted Canadian book called "The Long and the short and the Tall: An Ordinary Airman's War" about the wartime RCAF by Robert Collins.



You do understand that flying and marching are 2 different things right ?

You do understand the way we fight wars have changed since 1945 ?


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## aesop081

Missed that.


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## Michael OLeary

Every time someone protests doing drill on the forum, you'd think people were expecting this from our service members instead of simply crisp uniform foot and weapon drill that they were taught in Basic training.


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## aesop081

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Every time someone protests doing drill on the forum, you'd think people were expecting this from our service members



Yes, clearly that is what i am expecting.


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## jollyjacktar

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Every time someone protests doing drill on the forum, you'd think people were expecting this from our service members instead of simply crisp uniform foot and weapon drill that they were taught in Basic training.



Maybe not, but that's what it feels like at times..... enjoyed the video otherwise.  Thanks.


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## SupersonicMax

recceguy said:
			
		

> You're paid to do a ******* job. And "to do that job properly" also includes staying current and precise in ALL aspects of your job, including drill and deportment.
> 
> Want to fly and be a gluebag? Join Air Canada. I've got no time for Tom Hank's Top Gun wannabees.



I'm a military pilot.  Not an Airline Pilot.  Slight difference.   I don't want to join Air Canada.

Say I'm in the QRA 2 times a week on average, I fly 1 Red Air mission, during which I emulate enemy aircraft and armament and perhaps I fly 1 "blue air" mission (if we don't do Force Employment ie: CAS for the army, TASMO for the Navy), meaning on average, if I am lucky, I will fly 1 training mission a week.  Considering we have about 6 disciplines we need to be proficient at (BFM, ACM, AWI, DCA, CAS and AI) and they all are very perishable skills.  That means in month I never train in all 6 disciplines. We keep proficient using spare time flying the simulator or hitting the books, when you can spare time away from your secondary duties.  I work on average 10-12 hours a day (not including the 24hrs everytime you are in the QRA) and we can barely maintain a good tactical standard.  And you want us to sacrifice some of this time to do drill and shine shoes?  

Again, I can do my job fine and I expect the same from other.  Dress is definately not of any importance, given the nature of our operations.  Attitude is 1000 times more important. 

Thankfully, my boss thinks the same....


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## Neill McKay

I can sympathize with those who have been subjected to day-long parades, and days-long preparation for them.  I overheard a comment at the Freedom of the City parade in Halifax last summer that captured the spirit of it: "Nothing like a parade, when you're not in it!".

But I come down on the side of there being some value to drill.  Parades in front of the public are important in reminding the public that they have armed forces, and allowing them to connect with us.  The ultimate purpose of the armed forces is to be able to conduct operations but it's important to build public awareness and support (especially when there isn't a heavily broadcast war under way).  This is one of the ways we do it.

Drill itself (irrespective of any show you put on with it) also has a training purpose in that it builds a framework of immediate reaction to commands in a set way.  "Right - DRESS" isn't fundamentally different from "Starboard fifteen" or "On water, check foam and pattern"; each requires exactly one response, right away, without anyone taking time to second-guess it.


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## aesop081

N. McKay said:
			
		

> This is one of the ways we do it.



Surely, there are better ways of doing that than by prancing around like ponies.



> each requires exactly one response, right away, without anyone taking time to second-guess it.



I did not learn to obey commands from learning drill.

"he's the boss, do what he says" was more than enough. Teaching drill to recruits accomplishes nothing more than showing them what they need to do for ceremonies. Good officers and NCOs would have their commands followed without hesitation even without drill classes.


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## Edward Campbell

Just sayin' is all ...


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## krustyrl

Meh...HRH won't mind, he is in the Air Element too.!


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## Fishbone Jones

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Just sayin' is all ...



What kind of friggin' dance is that front rank doing?


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## Edward Campbell

recceguy said:
			
		

> What kind of friggin' dance is that front rank doing?




The result of insufficient practice, perhaps?


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## Fishbone Jones

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I'm a military pilot.  Not an Airline Pilot.  Slight difference.   I don't want to join Air Canada.
> 
> Say I'm in the QRA 2 times a week on average, I fly 1 Red Air mission, during which I emulate enemy aircraft and armament and perhaps I fly 1 "blue air" mission (if we don't do Force Employment ie: CAS for the army, TASMO for the Navy), meaning on average, if I am lucky, I will fly 1 training mission a week.  Considering we have about 6 disciplines we need to be proficient at (BFM, ACM, AWI, DCA, CAS and AI) and they all are very perishable skills.  That means in month I never train in all 6 disciplines. We keep proficient using spare time flying the simulator or hitting the books, when you can spare time away from your secondary duties.  I work on average 10-12 hours a day (not including the 24hrs everytime you are in the QRA) and we can barely maintain a good tactical standard.  And you want us to sacrifice some of this time to do drill and shine shoes?
> 
> Again, I can do my job fine and I expect the same from other.  Dress is definately not of any importance, given the nature of our operations.  Attitude is 1000 times more important.
> 
> Thankfully, my boss thinks the same....



What? You think you're the only one in the military that has to pull shifts, stay current, do extra studies, duties, courses, etc, etc, etc. Cry me a river. Welcome to the club bub. Don't try make yourself sound so hard done by. You're not talking to a bunch of kids on Career Day at public school.


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## Fishbone Jones

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> The result of insufficient practice, perhaps?



Gee, imagine that.


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## Michael OLeary

krustyrl said:
			
		

> Meh...HRH won't mind, he is in the Air Element too.!



Which is probably why someone in the Air Staff likely made sure it was a light blue guard.

Those who support efficient drill understand that few units will ever have the time to achieve a level that could compete with the Buckingham Palace Guard, but is _"don't be an embarrassment in the public eye"_ too much to ask for?  It's not like they were expected to perform a form on the march in slow time.


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## Neill McKay

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Surely, there are better ways of doing that than by prancing around like ponies.



There are several ways, of course -- having a Public Affairs Branch is among them.  But it's hard to deny the appeal of a parade for the general public.  To someone who has done it before it may be little more than a long walk and a lot of standing around, but it can attract interested spectators in numbers that might make a concert promoter jealous.



> I did not learn to obey commands from learning drill.
> 
> "he's the boss, do what he says" was more than enough.



And, for some people, it would be.  But drill, especially early in a CF member's training, is part of the process of acculturation to the CF and its requirement for rapid obedience to orders. 

I suspect that the most loyal employees in a civilian workplace will not, for the best boss in the world, react without hesitation to an order that seems patently incorrect to them -- even if they know that the boss has a much better understanding of the situation than they do.  At some point you have to get past the point where "starboard fifteen" could be met with "but, Sir, wouldn't it be safer to go to port?".  Drill is part of the process that builds that culture.


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## SupersonicMax

Ref Picture:  And nobody will remember any of this tomorrow (if they even noticed).  No big deal.  

recceguy: I am not whining. In fact, I love my job the way it is. I don't mind being the first one at work at 0600 and the last one out at 2100. When it's for reasons that make sense (making the unit better or becoming a better fighter pilot).  Looking good on the parade square is not going to help either situation. 

 I am telling you what we do on a daily basis.  And trying to point out that adding hours of drill practice in an already full week and crazy op tempo is not feasible in our environment.  I worked for 23 straight days without a day off and went off on a course in the field for 5 days.  I'm back home for 5 days and off for 2 months.  It's been the case for pretty much everybody in the squadron...  

But I guess we have to agree to disagree.  I probably don't understand your universe and from what I gather, you definitely don't understand mine.


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## Fishbone Jones

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Ref Picture:  And nobody will remember any of this tomorrow (if they even noticed).  No big deal.
> 
> recceguy: I am not whining. In fact, I love my job the way it is. I don't mind being the first one at work at 0600 and the last one out at 2100. When it's for reasons that make sense (making the unit better or becoming a better fighter pilot).  Looking good on the parade square is not going to help either situation.
> 
> I am telling you what we do on a daily basis.  And trying to point out that adding hours of drill practice in an already full week and crazy op tempo is not feasible in our environment.  I worked for 23 straight days without a day off and went off on a course in the field for 5 days.  I'm back home for 5 days and off for 2 months.  It's been the case for pretty much everybody in the squadron...
> 
> But I guess we have to agree to disagree.  I probably don't understand your universe and from what I gather, you definitely don't understand mine.



Like I said, you are far from alone in those work habits and certainly no where near unique in the whole of the CF. I also spent time as Safety Systems in 409 Sqn and BAMEO in Trenton. Your world is far from foreign to me.


----------



## Occam

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Which is probably why someone in the Air Staff likely made sure it was a light blue guard.



It was actually a tri-service parade at Rideau Hall.  Army and Air Force guard, and Navy Colour party.  



> Those who support efficient drill understand that few units will ever have the time to achieve a level that could compete with the Buckingham Palace Guard, but is _"don't be an embarrassment in the public eye"_ too much to ask for?  It's not like they were expected to perform a form on the march in slow time.



If it's that important, bring back a Standing Guard that you can attach people to for six months to a year, so that they get good at it and use it repetitively.  Oh yeah, and it lets the rest of us get some work done.

And whose bright idea was it to mix English and French while doing rifle drill?  It's hard enough as it is trying to understand a parade commander who sounds like he has marbles in his mouth because it's been 20 years since he barked a drill command, without making us Anglophones try to decipher the mumbles in French.


----------



## Steve1987

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I am indeed separating the two. I separate them because i view parades as archaic and unnecessary. I do them and do them well because that is what is expected and, as long as it is so, i will continue to do them to the highest standard. I am all for traditions but i can think of many more important ones.
> 
> Parades remain a waste of mine and my soldier's time. We are not show horses.



CDN Aviator,

I'm not on here too often but dropped by this thread and after reading it a couple times you summed up how I feel on this topic.  I understand why drill exists, and have respect for tradition, but I am absolutely opposed to excessive drill and being paraded around like a show horse as well.   I think doing this if anything distances us from the public.  I think excessive drill in the eyes of the public would make soldiers look less human and more like robots.  I also find most parades, with the obvious exceptions, to be very pompous and their is nothing lamer than a speech nobody cares about or that stupid sheepdog story we have all heard 100 times *barf*.  If there is a reasonable standard, once that standard is met, I don't see the point in wasting valuable time past that point on the drill floor?  Do we actually have nothing better to do? 

[QOUTE]But it's hard to deny the appeal of a parade for the general public.  To someone who has done it before itMab may be little more than a long walk and a lot of standing around, but it can attract interested spectators in numbers that might make a concert promoter jealous.[/QUOTE]

Hi McKay, I guess I just don't see it. I'm not from a military family, most of my friends are civilians, and I still can't really imagine why your average civilian would want to watch more than one or two parades in their lifetime. I also don't know how it connects us to them.  Maybe you can explain to me what exactly what about an average parade appeals to the public?  Even the changing of the guard seems like one of those things you only watch once or twice before it becomes boring.  And how can you connect with the average private or corporal standing in the ranks, who won't say a sentence the entire time, how does that connect the public with them at all?   Also, who would want to join the military if they thought they would be doing drill all the time?

-Steve


----------



## Michael OLeary

I don't think anyone here is arguing for _"excessive drill and being paraded around like a show horse"_ or _"drill all the time"_. The question becomes how much is just enough so that when a Guard of Honour or  funeral party or even a change of command parade is to be conducted, officers and soldiers/sailors/airmen on parade look like they know what they are doing and not like they haven't formed up since graduating from trades training?


----------



## Steve1987

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> I don't think anyone here is arguing for _"excessive drill and being paraded around like a show horse"_ or _"drill all the time"_. The question becomes how much is just enough so that when a Guard of Honour or  funeral party or even a change of command parade is to be conducted, officers and soldiers/sailors/airmen on parade look like they know what they are doing and not like they haven't formed up since graduating from trades training?



If that is the case, I would agree finding the right medium would be ideal, just the impression I got from others was that they are interested in more than what is needed for these events.  edit: I suppose also the standard will be very different for everyone. 

-Steve


----------



## Snaketnk

One example I'll never forget is just prior to high readiness training... they had us practice for 3 weeks for a winter parade that consisted of marching on, present arms, marching off. 

All day, 5 days a week for 3 weeks.


I've spent more days practicing drill in Bn than I have firing my weapon in training. Including High Readiness/Workup training.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Snaketnk said:
			
		

> One example I'll never forget is just prior to high readiness training... they had us practice for 3 weeks for a winter parade that consisted of marching on, present arms, marching off.
> 
> All day, 5 days a week for 3 weeks.



Thankfully, isolated examples of _stupid and unnecessary_ don't support either side of the discussion.


----------



## mariomike

Steve1987 said:
			
		

> I'm not from a military family, most of my friends are civilians, and I still can't really imagine why your average civilian would want to watch more than one or two parades in their lifetime. I also don't know how it connects us to them.  Maybe you can explain to me what exactly what about an average parade appeals to the public?



Whether the public wants them or not, and what purpose they serve, there always has been and always will be parades. Military, police and fire parades are examples. But, there are other organizations as well that understand the powerful effect they have on the public.


----------



## aesop081

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> even a change of command parade is to be conducted,



The question, at least to me, is why have a parade for change of command at all. Are events like this necessary ? Can't a new commander assume his/her duties without having to line everyone up in 3 ranks and a march past ? Does reporting for work really necessitate using up multiple days worth of valuable training time to practice for and execute a parade ?

My last change of command parade consumed 3 days. An entire air wing, that is in the middle of cranking out another OP MOBILE roto, where nothing got done for 3 days. Was this realy worth it ?


----------



## Infanteer

Good point.


----------



## Michael OLeary

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Was this realy worth it ?



I my opinion, unit change of command parades are important for the very purpose of all unit personnel being formally aware of the change or appointment and seeing their own superiors responding to it, even if it is an artificial environment. It is one of the few times that many units will have their command structure in one place and visible to members of the unit.

Formation change of command parades; those could be a signing ceremony. If convenient, do it in the presence of a unit that is on parade for its own purposes.

There are other events that do merit formal ceremonies, as mentions there are funerals, Guards of Honour and I would add, for those units that have them, trooping of the Colours on presentation of new Colours (which for most would occur once about every 20 years or maybe once in a career, not exactly a burden).


----------



## OldSolduer

I don't know if it would matter all that much IF the unit isn't on a mission.

The Army tends to perform Change of Commands post  mission so they troops (after leave etc) can spend the time square bashing. 
Change of Command parades are important as it lets everyone in the unit know that the new boss is here and visible.

 :2c:


----------



## Fishbone Jones

I'm not advocating all drill, all the time. However it should be done at least to stay proficient enough not to be an embarassment in public. And while CoC parades may not be an overwhelming justification, things like funeral parades certainly are. And any we are holding that parade for are entitled to the very best we can give them. Not a bunch of slovenly, out of step, bumbling............well you get the picture. That drill you will not pick up in an afternoon, without a half decent base to work from, and that base requires at least some regular workout. If not, you get the results in the previous picture.


----------



## aesop081

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Change of Command parades are important as it lets everyone in the unit know that the new boss is here and visible.



I'm sorry but that is rather weak if you are trying to justifie the time spent. As i said before, i witnessed a USN patrol squadron's change of command only 2 months ago. The did the change in front of everyone. The old CO and new CO were there, the Wing commander was there, the entire squadron was there. Everyone was sitting in chairs and witnessed old and new COs sign documents. Short speaches were made. Everyone went back to work. The whole thing took less than an hour. No practices, no parading and i assure you everyone knew who the boss was going to be well in advance.

This unit is not a bunch of amateurs. They are no less professional in the eyes of anyone because they didnt march around in a square with the CO leading.


----------



## Infanteer

Does parade drill improve the combat effectiveness of soldiers on the ground, sailors on a ship or pilots and their aircrew getting planes in the air?


----------



## OldSolduer

We teach drill for some very basic reasons:

Adherence to orders.....intantaneous reaction to orders.

Respect for superiors

Obedience. 

There was a spiel we used to tell the recruits. I can't recall it offhand but it covered the above points.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Does parade drill improve the combat effectiveness of soldiers on the ground, sailors on a ship or pilots and their aircrew getting planes in the air?



Would that not depend on the attitudes of the chains of command and how they promote the usefulness of drill as an exercise in military discipline, team work and unit pride.

Are those not useful attributes which can be developed in a small way at little cost. No-one is proposing endless days on the parade square and canceling range training to do it.


----------



## Snaketnk

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Are those not useful attributes which can be developed in a small way at little cost. No-one is proposing endless days on the parade square and canceling range training to do it.



No-one may be promoting it, but it's happened a frighteningly high number of times in my short career. Drill practice is a thing that everyone has to drop everything to do, while going to the range is a "if nothing else comes up" thing.

I'll admit I'm a little disgruntled, but there's been a significant spike in releases and OTs in the people I know and I think it's for a reason.


----------



## Infanteer

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> We teach drill for some very basic reasons:
> 
> Adherence to orders.....intantaneous reaction to orders.
> 
> Respect for superiors
> 
> Obedience.



Are you really trying to convince me that my subordinates follow my orders because some PO in St Jean broke down the movement of swinging your arms when you walk?


----------



## quadrapiper

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> The question becomes how much is just enough so that when a Guard of Honour or  funeral party or even a change of command parade is to be conducted, officers and soldiers/sailors/airmen on parade look like they know what they are doing and not like they haven't formed up since graduating from trades training?


A few thoughts on drill instruction and competency... I'm not going to touch the "role of drill and ceremonial in today's CF" thing, except to say that I can think of no armed force that conducts or conducted operations involving more than company-on-company fights, or technology, strategy, or tactics beyond contemporary banditry, without some sort of shared, non-mission-relevant ceremonial activities, whether it be gathering for a blessing or sacrifice, a formal oath-taking to a commander, or the damned near universal act of tramping about one's home town in whatever passes for No. 1 kit.

Changes of command, unit birthdays, Remembrance Day (and the service- and regiment-specific commemorations) and community parades all have a certain predictability to them. A reasonable run-up to each, with perhaps six hours of drill over the course of a week (a drill-day right before the gig is a waste of time, after the first two or three hours), should maintain the unit's standard of drill to a sufficient level that, should something unexpected crop up, it is not necessary to either turn a blind eye to ham-handed drill, or to spend an unexpected three or four days re-teaching the 201.

As far as smaller events; guards of honour, funeral parties, and so on, where the entire unit is not required to do anything overly complicated, rotate sub-units through the role of having to provide personnel for ceremonial duties on a routine basis. Work up one month, deal with ceremonial tasks the next. Wouldn't take too much time, overall: cadets can be taught how to (badly) conduct basic rifle drill in two hours, well enough to get through Colours without committing any major gaffes, and the predictability might prevent some of the complaints on here regarding disruption of training, operational prep, or whatever.


----------



## aesop081

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> There was a spiel we used to tell the recruits.



Telling them that does not make it so.

Besides the fact that i do not consider parade drill a useful tool for teaching those things, teaching drill is not the issue. It is the pointless ceremonial afterwards that is the issue.


			
				Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Would that not depend on the attitudes of the chains of command and how they promote the usefulness of drill as an exercise in military discipline, team work and unit pride.



How about we use training for the unit's primary function instead ?

That promotes discipline, teamwork and unit pride. Yes, i do remember reading that somewhere. I have certainly been more proud after finishing a demanding, exhausting exercise that i have been from doing any sort of parade.



> canceling range training to do it.



I don't know wether to laugh or cry at that one. Laugh because you probably say that with a straight face or cry because it actualy happens.


----------



## Infanteer

quadrapiper said:
			
		

> A few thoughts on drill instruction and competency... I'm not going to touch the "role of drill and ceremonial in today's CF" thing, except to say that I can think of no armed force that conducts or conducted operations involving more than company-on-company fights, or technology, strategy, or tactics beyond contemporary banditry, without some sort of shared, non-mission-relevant ceremonial activities, whether it be gathering for a blessing or sacrifice, a formal oath-taking to a commander, or the damned near universal act of tramping about one's home town in whatever passes for No. 1 kit.
> 
> Changes of command, unit birthdays, Remembrance Day (and the service- and regiment-specific commemorations) and community parades all have a certain predictability to them. A reasonable run-up to each, with perhaps six hours of drill over the course of a week (a drill-day right before the gig is a waste of time, after the first two or three hours), should maintain the unit's standard of drill to a sufficient level that, should something unexpected crop up, it is not necessary to either turn a blind eye to ham-handed drill, or to spend an unexpected three or four days re-teaching the 201.
> 
> As far as smaller events; guards of honour, funeral parties, and so on, where the entire unit is not required to do anything overly complicated, rotate sub-units through the role of having to provide personnel for ceremonial duties on a routine basis. Work up one month, deal with ceremonial tasks the next. Wouldn't take too much time, overall: cadets can be taught how to (badly) conduct basic rifle drill in two hours, well enough to get through Colours without committing any major gaffes, and the predictability might prevent some of the complaints on here regarding disruption of training, operational prep, or whatever.



A good post, with much to agree with.

I can't help wonder if the Drill PAM is in need of an overhaul.  How much drill is required by today's CF to look good when formed up in public and give ceremonial events the dignity they deserve?  Would we be just as convincing if we did away with sword/rifle drill completely?


----------



## OldSolduer

Infanteer said:
			
		

> A good post, with much to agree with.
> 
> I can't help wonder if the Drill PAM is in need of an overhaul.  How much drill is required by today's CF to look good when formed up in public and give ceremonial events the dignity they deserve?  Would we be just as convincing if we did away with sword/rifle drill completely?



I think quite the opposite. Ceremonial parades without arms (Army type here) IMO are useless and horrible to watch.

Drill is a cost effective way to instill obedience to orders to your troops. Its also a bloody good PR exercise that can get you some good press and 30 seconds on the local news. And even the Air Force does drill. Civilians who don't normally see troops are in awe of troops who perform well on parade. Those civilians are our bosses....they pay our wages, buy us our kit etc....and if they ain't happy.....
The Manual of Drill and Ceremonial is fine the way it is IMO.


----------



## Michael OLeary

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> How about we use training for the unit's primary function instead ?



Sure, once you explain how practicing to conduct section attacks gets troops ready to bury one of their comrades or stand on parade on Remembrance Day. Stop acting like the only choices are _all drill all the time_ or _all op training all the time_. You're just coming across like someone who doesn't understand anything outside your own technical trade.


----------



## Infanteer

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Drill is a cost effective way to instill obedience to orders to your troops.



How so?

I've heard this parroted about before, usually as the reason why drill is so important.  I'd challenge the claimant of this to prove it.  All the studies of men under fire that I've read haven't mentioned it.


----------



## aesop081

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> doesn't understand anything outside your own technical trade.



Yes, that must be the problem.

 :


----------



## OldSolduer

Drill can be done just about anyplace and anytime. I'm not saying we need to do drill every day. Recruits need to learn drill to instill a sense of obedience and reaction to orders. That is why recruits learn drill. It also has the effect of teaching them some teamwork.
Its far cheaper than going to the field, arming them and yelling at them ad nauseum, which we doing during drill anyways. Why are we having this conversation on a Friday night??


----------



## aesop081

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Recruits need to learn drill to instill a sense of obedience and reaction to orders.



Yes, you said that several times already.



> Why are we having this conversation on a Friday night??



It is Thursday. I'm guessing drill hasn't helped you with keeping track of the days of the week  ;D


----------



## OldSolduer

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Yes, you said that several times already.
> 
> It is Thursday. I'm guessing drill hasn't helped you with keeping track of the days of the week  ;D



Yes I have said it several times as it doesn't seem to be getting through ;D

I don't dispute that technical trades (ie Air/naval stuff) don't have the time to do drill like the Army. Nor should the Air Force be as good at drill. I don't want you to be. I want Air guys putting aircraft up to support the ground guys.

Thursday,,,,,hmmmmmOK why are we having this conversation on a Thursday night? Has to be ladies night somewhere.....


----------



## Snaketnk

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Drill can be done just about anyplace and anytime. I'm not saying we need to do drill every day. Recruits need to learn drill to instill a sense of obedience and reaction to orders. That is why recruits learn drill. It also has the effect of teaching them some teamwork.
> Its far cheaper than going to the field, arming them and yelling at them ad nauseum, which we doing during drill anyways. Why are we having this conversation on a Friday night??



I have a really hard time buying this. You make it sound as if Drill is the only reason people follow and react to orders. The reason I react to orders is because I understand that I'm a piece of a tool (section) that someone who makes more money than me is using -- in combat and in garrison.

You ever stop and think that recruits learn drill so that they can do drill during their career? Isn't that what they always say in the "you will use this..." part of the drill class? If Drill is the thing that's instilling obedience in soldiers than the rest of the system needs a serious overhaul.

I'm all for making sure you look good when you're paraded infront of the public - but the only time that's happened for me, at least, is on Rememberance Day (and I have no issues whatsoever practicing that particular parade to perfection...). The rest of my parades have been in private; in a drill hall or on a parade square very sheltered from the public eye. I often just feel like a decoration so the reviewing officer has something pretty to look at while he rolls his eyes at the endless barrage of speeches.


----------



## medicineman

Infanteer said:
			
		

> How so?
> 
> I've heard this parroted about before, usually as the reason why drill is so important.  I'd challenge the claimant of this to prove it.  All the studies of men under fire that I've read haven't mentioned it.



I suppose I could draw on an anecdote from my grandfather, who was one of the last guys off the beach at Dunkirk...despite being bombed and strafed, troops were formed up, called to attention, turned and marched out into the water towards whatever vessel was designated to lift them out.  It kept a semblance of order and calm by relegating everything back to parade ground familiarity and making a very abnormal situation seem a little more normal.  Not saying it was a Trooping at Buckingham Palace or even unchaotic, but it helped get things done.

 :2c:

MM


----------



## aesop081

I much prefer troops that do what they are told because they understand what it is that is being done rather than blind obedience just because i barked out the right words.


----------



## OldSolduer

Snaketnk said:
			
		

> I have a really hard time buying this. You make it sound as if Drill is the only reason people follow and react to orders. The reason I react to orders is because I understand that I'm a piece of a tool (section) that someone who makes more money than me is using -- in combat and in garrison.
> 
> You ever stop and think that recruits learn drill so that they can do drill during their career? Isn't that what they always say in the "you will use this..." part of the drill class? If Drill is the thing that's instilling obedience in soldiers than the rest of the system needs a serious overhaul.
> 
> I'm all for making sure you look good when you're paraded infront of the public - but the only time that's happened for me, at least, is on Rememberance Day (and I have no issues whatsoever practicing that particular parade to perfection...). The rest of my parades have been in private; in a drill hall or on a parade square very sheltered from the public eye. I often just feel like a decoration so the reviewing officer has something pretty to look at while he rolls his eyes at the endless barrage of speeches.



You don't have to "buy" it. The value of drill hit home for me when I was an instructor in CFRS Cornwallis. Taking a bunch of civilians and within 90 minutes of starting from a zero knowledge, we can have them come to attention, stand at ease etc. 
Try to teach them how to perform section attacks without learning drill first. And what are some of the first lessons in recruit school, after being kitted out etc?

I have stopped and thought. Drill is a tool to instill obedience....just one of many. And I've been on my share of parades as well, and cursed many of them.


----------



## OldSolduer

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I much prefer troops that do what they are told because they understand what it is that is being done rather than blind obedience just because i barked out the right words.



You know I fully agree with that.....but barking out the right words is essential on the mortar line as well. And they  understand what it is they have to do.


----------



## aesop081

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Try to teach them how to perform section attacks without learning drill first.



Just like teaching people anything else. You explain what to do, you explain why it is done and then show them how to do it. If people understand why they do certain things, they will do it without question. Teaching section attacks is no different than teaching attack runs on the CP-140.

I don't "adance left turn" because the parade commander yelled it out. I "advance left turn" because i know this is the part where we need to face the crowd, the advance in review order is coming up.


----------



## OldSolduer

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Just like teaching people anything else. You explain what to do, you explain why it is done and then show them how to do it. If people understand why they do certain things, they will do it. Teaching section attacks is no different than teaching attack runs on the CP-140.



I've never been in the Aurora, however I do know that once the soldier is past the intense drill phase of training, he/she is now ready to be instructed on how to perform section attacks. And yes....we explain, demo and they imitate. 
We cannot take a raw recruit and teach them section attacks....and I have seen AESOPs do drill as well... 

And if you practise enough you know that the Advance Left turn is coming up, and not to react until told to, right?


----------



## aesop081

I'm going to go ask a bottle of Crown Royal what it thinks.............. :nod:


----------



## OldSolduer

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I'm going to go ask a bottle of Crown Royal what it thinks.............. :nod:


And if I were there......I'd ask my buddy Jack Daniels....lol have a good one!!


----------



## mariomike

medicineman said:
			
		

> I suppose I could draw on an anecdote from my grandfather, who was one of the last guys off the beach at Dunkirk...despite being bombed and strafed, troops were formed up, called to attention, turned and marched out into the water towards whatever vessel was designated to lift them out.  It kept a semblance of order and calm by relegating everything back to parade ground familiarity and making a very abnormal situation seem a little more normal.  Not saying it was a Trooping at Buckingham Palace or even unchaotic, but it helped get things done.
> 
> :2c:
> 
> MM



I bet he never forgot that. 
"Many stood shoulder deep in water for hours, waiting to board the vessels.":
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d2/DUNKIRK1940.jpg


----------



## medicineman

mario - he actually had to swim almost 1 km to the destroyer

Pat - I'm hoping the bottle doesn't talk back  :nod:.

MM


----------



## blacktriangle

Drill isn't the easiest thing on the body either...I'm sure my ankles, knees and back would be better without driving my foot down sharply. That, and standing in the new parade boots sucks. I got off one of these lovely parades and it was noticeably painful for me to operate the clutch in my car, as I was that stiff. They honestly need to do a warm up and cool down before these things! Laugh all you want, I know VAC will if I put in a claim when I'm old and tired. 

As for the notion that you can't train tactics until a person knows drill...give any decent INF Sgt a 2IC, a soccer field, and some new guys...it will happen. 

I know why we have drill and what its purpose is, but let's not act like it's the main driving force behind a successful CF.


----------



## Towards_the_gap

What an unusual thread to pop up when I've been away for a bit!

I heartily concur with CDN_aviator's comments. I don't expect mindless obedience from my soldiers. This is not the Wehrmacht. My dudes will do their jobs because A) they know why they must do something and B) they already know the next step in the process, not because I am standing there shouting like a prat. I have personal experience in a situation where if a soldier had immediately carried out the orders given to him by his superior he would have killed himself, for no gain. Is that what drill is supposed to teach us? Should he have carried out the order regardless, just because someone of a superior rank told him so???

As for CofC parades, I was recently on one where about 18 soldiers passed out due to heat. Just so a bunch of brass could pat each other on the back. Seriously??? Is this 2011? or 1913???

 Like CDN_aviator says, what the heck is wrong with gathering everyone in the gym, shaking hands/signing papers then a BBQ and early finish?

Every day I am reminded of the famous quote regarding the experience of junior officers returning to the UK after VE day and being greeted by the garrison army with ' Thank god the war is over, now we can get back to real soldiering'. Thank god my contract ends when it does.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Spectrum said:
			
		

> I know why we have drill and what it's purpose is, but let's not act like it's the main driving force behind a successful CF.



It's not, and neither does the Air Force _have_ to fly jets in formation or the Navy sail around with commissioning pennants either, but they are all part of things we do that define us as the Army, Air Force and Navy, to ourselves and to the Canadian public.  The challenge in a modern CF is figuring out how much is just enough and stopping there - overdoing it doesn't make us better.


----------



## blacktriangle

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> It's not, and neither does the Air Force _have_ to fly jets in formation or the Navy sail around with commissioning pennants either, but they are all part of things we do that define us as the Army, Air Force and Navy, to ourselves and to the Canadian public.  The challenge in a modern CF is figuring out how much is just enough and stopping there - overdoing it doesn't make us better.



I think there might be some tactical reasons for the AF to fly in formation  ...not so much for a soldier to advance in review order. I know what you are saying though.

It's good to see that lots of Sgt/WO/Capts want to minimize the nonsense. I was starting to think it was only the junior ranks that felt that way.


----------



## Towards_the_gap

Unfortunately alot of those Sgt's/WO's/Capt's feel that they can only butt their heads against the wall for so long in the struggle for common sense, then vote with their feet, leaving the automatons in charge.


----------



## armyvern

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I much prefer troops that do what they are told because they understand what it is that is being done rather than blind obedience just because i barked out the right words.



That's why we teach them drill slowly and by squads during their basic ... so that they understand what it is that is being done and how/why ... oddly enough, even after we teach them that, there are those who still manage to fuck it up on parades etc when we "bark it out". When people consistantly manage to fuck up simple, fundamental-to-uniform-wearing basics like that, it's no damn wonder why we and people like me have them out practicing. That's not blind obedience - it's called immediate reaction - disciplined - and capably performing immediate actions (no matter HOW basic) has saved an ass or two out there in the nasty big old world of war. 

My .02cents worth.


----------



## armyvern

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> Unfortunately alot of those Sgt's/WO's/Capt's feel that they can only butt their heads against the wall for so long in the struggle for common sense, then vote with their feet, leaving the automatons in charge.



On the other hand, there are many of us today who are of the new generation and who hold those ranks, who are thinking "what the fuck happened to professionalism and discipline?" War-fighting is fine, but you can't tell me that troops are incapable of being disciplined and professional concurrent with that fighting. I see it happening every day here --- and I see those who don't think it's necessary too - that they simply have more or better things to do. They make some of their fellow soldiers look like shit especially during certain parades.


----------



## a_majoor

And it is not as if things like drill or dress and deportment don't happen in the "real world" as well. Training people to operate complex machinery, write computer programs or other complex tasks is generally broken into steps just like teaching drill so the machinist can "understand his job".

Go to the bank for a loan, or attend a business conference and see what "dress and deportment" will do for you.

You will have to leave the unit lines eventually, so make the use of _all_ the skills you were taught....


----------



## Towards_the_gap

@ ArmyVern: personally, I do not use drill and deportment as a yardstick for discipline and professionalism. Rather, how they carry out their jobs ensuring that they understand my intent in regards to the task. I agree there is a bare minimum of deportment, but I do not get wrapped around the axle about it I always assume they are adults and treat them like such until they prove me otherwise, and as it stands have not been proven wrong yet. 

@ Thucydides: totally agree, and you can imagine in my line of work that knowing complex tasks by rote is a common job skill. However, advancing in review order or presenting arms means little on a bridge site, or when on your hands and knees and staring at a freshly uncovered pressure plate hooked up to god knows what.


I think, at the end of the day, what CDN_Aviator and I are arguing is more about degrees of importance rather than doing away with drill and ceremonial altogether. I rate drill and dress uniform parades at the bottom of what is important in my job, but realise it still has to be done (NB FROM TIME TO TIME, not weekly or even monthly). I will never use it however to 'fill time' or 'build discipline'. My soldiers have plenty of self-discipline because that is what I expect of them, I give them plenty of slack to display such discipline, and I do not treat them like idiots by using outdated training methods to instill said discipline.


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## vonGarvin

OK, I'm probably going to regret this, and I'm probably going to say stuff that's been said in here, but here goes anyway

(first of all, yes, I read through this thread)

My one and only point is this: we are in the military and being in the military involves doing drill (among many other things).  Yes, there are times when parades are too time consuming.  But for any of you who think that drill is a waste of time at _any_ time, I suggest that you get out of the military. 


That is all I have to say about that...


----------



## GAP

Yes....drill is a pain......................but a potential lifesaving pain........

It's not the drill, per se, but the training of the individual and group to act in accordance to a barked command.....it's the mindset to react upon command, not stand there wondering what the DI wanted and whether you should do it.........sound familiar.......ever come under fire?..... ever react to a barked command?
It's the training of neural responses to stimuli......


----------



## Dissident

And really, am I the only one who gets goose bumps when participating in something like this?:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=121142&d=1273007770

(I am a proud Army Reservist, I just happened to be teaching at NOTC Venture last summer when they had the centennial parade.)


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## Snaketnk

GAP, I'm relatively new and I can't recall once being told to blindly follow drill commands. I've been told my entire career that even people calling drill make mistakes, and so to think about the parade format, and what you're "allowed" to do in drill (for example: grounding arms on the stand at ease, giving turns in the wrong direction, etc) And when someone screws up the drill programme, to go ahead with what's right. Problems occur when people's initiative and self confidence get stamped out and they'll follow the leader even if he's wrong.

On that note, maybe officers should practice drill more than the day before when the NCMs are out there for a week? Every major drill screw up I can think of are a direct result of an officer who wasn't present during practice really shitting the bed, and some of the NCMs following him while the rest did what was right.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Snaketnk said:
			
		

> ...
> On that note, maybe officers should practice drill more than the day before when the NCMs are out there for a week? Every major drill screw up I can think of are a direct result of an officer who wasn't present during practice really shitting the bed, and some of the NCMs following him while the rest did what was right.




You mean to say that they don't?

They used to, as late as _circa_ 1980 - when I was last on regimental duty.

In the 1960s, '70s and inot ther '80s, regimental officers were drilled, separately, by the adjutant, assisted by the RSM or DSMI, in the relative privacy of the officers' mess parking lot, to ensure that they knew how to do their parts on parade without requiring too many rehearsals.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Spectrum said:
			
		

> I think there might be some tactical reasons for the AF to fly in formation



So, why do only a few wear special clothing and fly special aircraft for public display and spend many days practicing special drills that other pilots don't use?


----------



## OldSolduer

Spectrum said:
			
		

> I think there might be some tactical reasons for the AF to fly in formation  ...not so much for a soldier to advance in review order. I know what you are saying though.
> 
> It's good to see that lots of Sgt/WO/Capts want to minimize the nonsense. I was starting to think it was only the junior ranks that felt that way.


Nonsense? I think many of you are forgetting our history and heritage. There was a tactical reason for the Advance in Review Order at one time. There was a tactical reason for forms on the march and at the halt. There is a reason why troops - especially recruits - should be marched from class to class instead of having them make their own way.

And its not nonsense.  The day we take drill out of the syllabus for recruit training or we say Trooping of the Colours are forbidden is the day I quit.

I'm not a proponent of unnecessary drill. Drill is required at some points in the CF. 

Oh and if the officer or NCO makes a mistake in giving an order ie Shoulder Arms when you are standing at ease the correct drill movement is to not move.


----------



## aesop081

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I think many of you are forgetting our history and heritage.



Far from it.




> There was a tactical reason for the Advance in Review Order at one time. There was a tactical reason for forms on the march and at the halt.



I know you still have vivid memories Jim, but the Earth has cooled since then.  ;D




> There is a reason why troops - especially recruits - should be marched from class to class instead of having them make their own way.



I do not disagree. If you go back and re-read my posts in this thread, this is not what i was talking about.



> The day we take drill out of the syllabus for recruit training



I dont think anyone has suggested that.



> Drill is required at some points in the CF.



Again, i don't think anyone has said it was not.


----------



## Rifleman62

ERC:


> You mean to say that they don't?
> 
> They used to, as late as circa 1980 - when I was last on regimental duty.
> 
> In the 1960s, '70s and into the '80s, regimental officers were drilled, separately, by the adjutant, assisted by the RSM or DSMI, in the relative privacy of the officers' mess parking lot, to ensure that they knew how to do their parts on parade without requiring too many rehearsals.



The last two units I was with always did this. The RSM (Go, See, Fix) and the CO ensured this was done. 

On a change of command parade, all ranks, incl officers, carried a rifle with bayonet fixed for a change of pace. How do you think the officers came to be "capable" in arms drill? 

The troops enjoyed it!


----------



## Kirkhill

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> ERC:
> The last two units I was with always did this. The RSM (Go, See, Fix) and the CO ensured this was done.
> 
> On a change of command parade, all ranks, incl officers, carried a rife with bayonet fixed for a change of pace.



And I'm flashing back to the words of WO Angus Muise RCR after I had marched my platoon all over the range trying to get them so that the "Front" rank faced "Front" (ie down range) : "Pay attention to detail, Sir, and the words of command for."

As to the role of "Ceremonial" drill, it had its origins in permitting a small, coordinated group of disciplined troops to defeat a mob by superior use of manoeuvre.   The need was for the troops to respond like marionets so that they all manoeuvred according to one of the many "plans" available - those plans being devised to ensure that weaknesses in the line were limited to the greatest extent possible.  When manoeuvring with sticks and shields in the face of a mob I don't believe there is a lot of time to discuss, debate and inform.

As you find yourselves fighting more "wars amongst the people" and thus conducting more ACP type operations, i would be willing to bet that some of the more complex drills from the 18th and 19th century could actually find application in the real world.  Operations that the Fort Henry Guard still conduct:  "Forming Twos, Forming Fours, Forming Square, Refusing a Flank, Reversing your Front, Advance and Retire by Platoons etc...."

I always find it useful to look to history to find solutions rather than trying to figure out how to build a wheel myself.

Having said that, in today's world there are many technical trades where time and distance are sufficient to permit collaborative decision making and where the collaborative process may be a more effective method of conducting operations.

Maybe it doesn't make sense for the technical trades to spend time learning anything more than coming to attention, saluting and managing a right turn - dismiss.  But for those troops that operate on the ground in close proximity to the "enemy" then I think Drill is not just a useful training tool and a historical reminder but could still find practical application on certain "urban battlefields".


----------



## OldSolduer

Cdn Aviator,,,,,thanks......lol  

I just watched the Ceremonial Guard on Parliament Hill. Damn fine parade, wasn't it? 

Oh and the Snowbirds were pretty damn good too.....as were the 18s!


----------



## Michael OLeary

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> Maybe it doesn't make sense for the technical trades to spend time learning anything more than coming to attention, saluting and managing a right turn - dismiss.



Then who will bury their dead, when that task is required? What would you say to a member of such a technical trade when he or she asks why they aren't considered worthy to stand vigil at the National War Memorial, because there is no training requirement for them to learn the drill movements?

There are a few tasks which must be done when required, that no trade can clearly claim that they are part of the technical execution of their duties. But all the same, they must be done as needed, and done well. It's been stated above that a proper balance should be found, and that balance point doesn't have to be the same level of training/practice for Air Force technicians as it is for infantry soldiers. But the baseline should be at a level such that required tasks can be performed as needed with a minimum of preparatory practice and additional training.

The use of extreme examples to form a basis of argument against drill is setting aside the utility of drill when it has a purpose, such as moving a body of troops or marching a guilty bastard in.


----------



## GAP

> Maybe it doesn't make sense for the technical trades to spend time learning anything more than coming to attention, saluting and managing a right turn - dismiss.  But for those troops that operate on the ground in close proximity to the "enemy" then I think Drill is not just a useful training tool and a historical reminder but could still find practical application on certain "urban battlefields".



U of S mandates that all trades be capable of defending their positions....drill is, as noted, important....it's not always going to be bombardment/banzai attacks from a uniformed opposition....

Likely to happen.....ehhhh.....not so much

Would you like to be in the position of deer in headlights as the mob bears down on you, and you hold up your hands and say nicely that you are a tech.....this war stuff has nothing to do with you........


----------



## Towards_the_gap

I think we're all coming to some semblance of an agreement here. Drill is a necessary evil, that I think CDN_aviator and I agree with the dinosaurs on. Unneccessary drill is a PITA and should be avoied, but the ceremonial side is still something that must be done and therefore drill is the tool which you use to crack that particular nut, be it funerals, freedom of city parades etc.

HOWEVER, please believe me when I say that drill has absolutely no bearing on the training of soldiers for war. 20,30,40 years ago maybe, but the world has changed, how we fight has changed. My soldiers knew what they needed to do in contact not because I was shouting at them, but because they knew what needed to happen. I don't see how they got that fron rifle drill.


----------



## GAP

> My soldiers knew what they needed to do in contact not because I was shouting at them, but because they knew what needed to happen.



Once you have taken the bright shiney guys off the streets, run them through processing hopefully crashing their civilian mores down to a point they start listening to you, teach them the military way...through example, repetition, repetition....repetition (with some shouting, etc.).....you then take them out and teach them step by step how to do military functions mostly related to the field......

is it any wonder that....they knew what needed to happen?  

They were trained. Nothing more. Drill is a portion of that training....that was my whole point.

ps: I agree with the guys saying needless drill is not needed.....then it comes down to who decides what is needless and what is not....


----------



## Rifleman62

Towards_the_gap;



> soldiers knew what they needed to do in contact not because I was shouting at them, but because they knew what needed to happen._* I don't see how they got that fron rifle drill.*_



Because they were use to being shouted at on the parade square!



Joking.


----------



## Towards_the_gap

GAP- I see your point, as part of the 'indoctrination' to military life. However trained soldiers do not need drill to keep their battle readiness up to par, no matter what trade they are.


----------



## GAP

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> GAP- I see your point, as part of the 'indoctrination' to military life. However trained soldiers do not need drill to keep their battle readiness up to par, no matter what trade they are.



But they do need practice to be able to do the ceremonial thingys, and in today's forces that tends to be the everyday emphasis for drill....


----------



## vonGarvin

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> HOWEVER, please believe me when I say that drill has absolutely no bearing on the training of soldiers for war.



I could not disagree more. 



			
				Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> However trained soldiers do not need drill to keep their battle readiness up to par, no matter what trade they are.


Again, I disagree.


As I've already stated, we are soldiers.  Yes, soldiers are expected to march and look pretty when called for, but I'm not talking just the ceremonial side of things.  It's the intangibles in drill, kit and quarters, etc that have proven, since the time of the Romans (and before) to be war-winning (or at least battle-winning) requirements.


----------



## vonGarvin

GAP said:
			
		

> I agree with the guys saying needless drill is not needed.....



If something is needless, then, by definition, it's not needed.  (From the word "need" and the suffix "less", which means "without need" or "unnecessary")  8)

But I think I know what you mean, and yes, there can be too much of anything.  In the case of doing drill for drill's sake, then it's an unnecessary act.


----------



## Infanteer

Technoviking said:
			
		

> As I've already stated, we are soldiers.  Yes, soldiers are expected to march and look pretty when called for, but I'm not talking just the ceremonial side of things.  It's the intangibles in drill, kit and quarters, etc that have proven, since the time of the Romans (and before) to be war-winning (or at least battle-winning) requirements.



You mean the Romans that were ultimately overrun by non-drilling Germans?

I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with any of the arguments, but someone has to provide some proof linking close-order drill with battlefield discipline instead of making these claims that professional armies cannot exist without it.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Infanteer said:
			
		

> You mean the Romans that were ultimately overrun by non-drilling Germans?



They did seem to pick it up some time later though.


----------



## Good2Golf

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> They did seem to pick it up some time later though.



Well played, sir!  :nod:


----------



## vonGarvin

Infanteer said:
			
		

> I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with any of the arguments, but someone has to provide some proof linking close-order drill with battlefield discipline instead of making these claims that professional armies cannot exist without it.


One article
Another



> As armament and weaponry have improved, drill has had to adapt to new tactical concepts. Although the procedures taught in drill today are not normally employed on the battlefield, the objectives accomplished by drill are just as important to the modern Army as they were to the Continental Army.
> Throughout history, armies have practiced drill.  In times of war, leaders used drill to move troops and equipment quickly from one location to another in an orderly manner.  Drills also show how troops can move as one in a flawlessly timed effort.  These unison movements are still important on the battlefield where mistakes can cost lives.  In peacetime, drill provides a means of enhancing morale, developing a spirit of cohesion, and presenting traditional and well-executed ceremonies.



These are just two parts, but to assert that the Romans lost the empire in spite of lack of drill on the part of the Germans is laughable.  The Western Empire fell for many reasons, but just as the German Soldier of 1939-1945 was arguably superior to his foes (on a one-to-one comparison), the German Empire fell nevertheless, no matter how well that Soldier marched.


----------



## vonGarvin

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> They did seem to pick it up some time later though.



 ;D


And some could argue that the Germans were decades ahead of their time in their drill:


----------



## 57Chevy

Drill..........What is it good for....whoa... whoa... whoa... whoa....(to the tune of "War" by Edwin Starr 1969  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01-2pNCZiNk&feature=related )

But seriously I think drill is actually an army thing. 
Lets face it, the Navy and Airforce types never were,
nor ever will be any good, at pounding the pavement.
Sure, there is always a few you can compare to the best
but they were probably remusters. ;D 

Military Drill: Its Theory and Purpose
http://www.vexen.co.uk/military/drill.html

1.The History of Drill
2.Drill and Politics
3.Drill and Physical Training
4.Drill and Discipline

1. The History of Drill

Drill is marching. In ancient history, the most powerful, efficient and developed empires developed ways of moving organized units of troops from one place to another on the battlefield, without individuals getting mixed up with other units. Otherwise, as masses of people manoeuvred amongst each other individuals would get lost and end up having to attach themselves to any old unit. A system of flags was developed so people could identify their own units (and side) on the field and make their way to their correct flag bearer if they got separated. But sticking to "formed up" squads was better, forming a box of men who moved as a single body. Overall it meant command systems were effective - men stayed together and could be commanded as units. Josephus, a first century Jewish historian, testifies to the superiority of Roman discipline, and part of that discipline was an ordered method of moving formed up squads from one place to another. This discipline facilitates effective realisation of tactical man-management, and the result is a superior fighting army.1

During what historians have reluctantly come to call “The Military Revolution” European armies between 1550 and 1720 became generally state-controlled, financed and permanent. “There was a resultant loss of individuality, with the need for better organization, good training - especially in drill - and strict discipline”2. Training became an institution.

Since then, drill has become increasingly important as part of training, discipline and military parades. Goose Stepping was a form of extreme marching held by German, Prussian, and Russian heads of military to be an ultimate display of the unbreakable will and discipline of its soldiers. Most modern marching is not as extreme as the rigid goose step. Anything that resembles it is now unpopular because it has become associated with fascism. Nevertheless it is still used by some countries as a powerful display of military discipline.

Military Drill in the Army is formalized with utmost precision in the fearsomely bulky Drill Book. In the preamble to the Drill Book it is "confidently asserted that the foundation of discipline in battle is based on drill" and that this has been proven again and again. According to William Barlow, Robert Graves said there are "three types of troops: those with guts who could not drill; those good at drill but with no guts and those who had guts and could drill well. [...] These last fought best of all"3.

2. Drill and Politics

An army that regularly parades in public displays itself as a highly professional army. Even though the parade itself does not perform any useful function on a battlefield, it has an affect even in times of peace and in build-ups to wars. A rag-tag army is likely to be unable to put on parades, hence it holds that larger and better armies can display their discipline by means of public performances. It therefore acts as a psychological tool and a deterrent - it says that the army is ready, strong and trained.

For example North Korea was facing off against the USA in 2002/2003 and making politically aggressive claims that it was developing nuclear weaponry. It put on a large number of military parades, sometimes including squads of children playing instruments and performing rigid dances, and they received attention in the news, commenting on how "modern" their army and military was. They could clearly be seen to be skilled; and this would act as a deterrent against many lesser armies.

German Nazi parades in the 1930s were awesome, fast and hard. They clearly formed part of the psychological manipulation tools of the Nazis, making the people feel strong and proud, making them happier to put themselves behind such a dedicated and inspiring home force.

So merely as a deterrent and as home inspiration, drill and parades perform useful military and political functions. As we are concentrating, in this text, on the ontology of training procedures, I will now concentrate on the role of drill on the personal development of soldiers physically and mentally, and not look at the role of drill in formal military displays.

3. Drill and Physical Training

Not everyone has the control over their bodies that athletes have. Strain, stress, laziness, inability, mental weakness and disfamiliarity prevent most people from having maximum control of their own bodies. When situations become stressful, cold or uncomfortable then people who have been trained to rigidly form their bodies around their will will undoubtedly perform better than those people whose only mind-body training has been computer games and casual sport.

A recruit will spent an apparent eternity stood motionless at attention, sometimes in seemingly unbearable cold and warmth. But with each such session, the cold becomes a little more bearable, the motionlessness becomes more familiar and more elegant and the recruit's body learns a little better how to conform completely to the wishes of its operator.

With drill comes increased control over your own body.
•In a tactical situation, on sentry, you must remain completely quiet and motionless in order to minimize the chances of being seen or heard. A recruit who has mastered hundreds of hours of drill, in the cold and in uncomfortable positions, will also be a master of his own body in such tactical situations.

•When a recruit moves on to skill at arms training the casual motionless and calmness, despite discomfort, is an essential ability of a good shot. If a recruit is not used to ignoring the minor discomforts of a held position, their minds will be distracted and their firing will be less accurate.

Once drill is internalized and your body is accustomed to the discipline, it becomes more like a relaxing meditation than hard work, and your mind can wonder. Retrospectively, it feels to some like they no longer find it hard... it is hard, but, they have become accustomed to the hardness.

“Nearly everyone who came into the Depot from civilian life brought with him the tortuous notion that, to drill smartly, one had to restrict and frustrate the natural action of the body. [Through drill] men came to inhabit and use their bodies less self-consciously, with an economy of movement.”
William Barlow (2005)3

4. Drill and Discipline

Many civilians and military men would like to consider discipline the primary role of drill. Parades, it is frequently said, is a display of discipline and in training it forms a method of instilling discipline that can be visually and physically tested. Drill was "a considerable art and could be used to show off, to punish or to loosen up. In the early stages of training it was the recognised means of breaking a squad in"3. Yes, discipline is a major part of drill but I hope that by highlighting the other roles it plays before getting on to this subject, I also highlight the other functions that drill serves.

When training recruits in drill it tends to bring out peoples' attitudes. Employing typical low-level popular psychology, it is used to "drill" discipline into recruits by pummelling them harder the more they resist, until they "break". When they break, they accept that they're rubbish at drill, that they are making mistakes, and that they will have to keep doing it until they get as good as they are being trained to be. Until they reach that point of breaking, recruits will resist the training. They may think they're "good enough", they may reject the need to do drill or they may reject the commands or make fun of drill. Once broken, they will accept drill. Although previous "attitudes" will surface, they won't interfere anymore with the actual obedience to the commands given. In short, their attitude has been overridden by freshly instilled discipline. That's how drill is seen to instill discipline amongst the average person.

In addition, drill is used within the armed forces as a punishment. Drill can be made very physically demanding. On the coldest days, a squad commander can drill a group of men until they sweat, their legs and feet ache and hurt, and they can no longer perform the moves with full gusto. It is a form of exercise. Keeping those knees waist high when "marking time" (marching on the spot) can be a form of torture, a dynamic stress position. As such, many of the low-rankers in the armed faces pretty much hate drill for the memories of the angst, although some come to like it.

                                              Shared with provisions of The Copyright Act


----------



## lethalLemon

I love drill and parades, just thought I'd throw that out there


----------



## a_majoor

Dril, dress and deportment and kit inspections per se don't win wars. I doubt the Taliban, Mowhawk warriors or Serbian militias (to name some of the groups I have encountered in the past) really care if we can do sharp hospital corners or "swing like a gate" when we wheel, but the ingrained habit of mind to pay attention to detail means we also pay attention to details like overlapping arcs of fire and surveillance; ensuring the wire is strung properly etc.

Drill is a tool, and the proper application of tools helps create the end results desired. I fully agree that tools can be misapplied or used poorly, and too often marching up and down the parade square substitutes for training. (If you really need something to do, go outside and do range estimation or play "hide and seek" while practicing why things are seen...)


----------



## Towards_the_gap

Technoviking said:
			
		

> the German Empire fell nevertheless, no matter how well that Soldier marched.




One might argue that it fell in part due to the mindless obedience of its soldiers!! Just sayin'......


But TV, those two articles you give as evidence, one has a guardsman who later became a russian othodox priest in it's references, and the other is from a JROTC website. I'm just gonna throw it out there that they're probably not the most objective of references!

Most of the 'drill is a pill that needs to be taken twice daily' proponents on here keep saying that drill is timeless, and has worked since the romans in developing professional armies. That I will not argue. Just like the sword has for many a year has enabled armies to hack and stab the other dude, allowing them to win. Should we still use them in combat? No. So is doing drill the smartest and most efficient way of instilling discipline in educated troops? I mention the education bit because drill worked back in the day because 100% of your soldiery were nose-picking farmers, thieves and ditch diggers, and to turn that rabble into something disciplined took drill. Do we need it with the troops we have today? Troops who are arguable more intelligent, educated and technically savvy than ever before in history?


----------



## Infanteer

Technoviking said:
			
		

> These are just two parts, but to assert that the Romans lost the empire in spite of lack of drill on the part of the Germans is laughable.  The Western Empire fell for many reasons, but just as the German Soldier of 1939-1945 was arguably superior to his foes (on a one-to-one comparison), the German Empire fell nevertheless, no matter how well that Soldier marched.



Two summaries of what drill is with nothing actually supporting the argument that drill and discipline are related- what does that tell me?  I can write a paper saying drill makes the sky blue, but if I don't offer anything substantive, it's baseless supposition.

Saying that the fall of Rome was in spite of lack of drill on the part of the Germans is indeed laughable, just as laughable as saying Roman military successes were necessarily built upon it.  There are as many examples of successful undrilled armies as there are of drilled ones if one looks at history.


----------



## vonGarvin

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Two summaries of what drill is with nothing actually supporting the argument that drill and discipline are related- what does that tell me?  I can write a paper saying drill makes the sky blue, but if I don't offer anything substantive, it's baseless supposition.
> 
> Saying that the fall of Rome was in spite of lack of drill on the part of the Germans is indeed laughable, just as laughable as saying Roman military successes were necessarily built upon it.  There are as many examples of successful undrilled armies as there are of drilled ones if one looks at history.


You know what else you can do?  You can go fuck yourself, that's what you can do

That the Roman Army was a highly efficient machine is not in question.  Why was it so?  Probably because of discipline (among other reasons).  Why did _Rome _ have successes and failures?  Political reasons, will to fight, etc.

Why don't you instead explain why drill has no place in a military and why it is useless as a tool to instill and maintain discipline in a profession force instead of bucking against it?  Or, better yet, submit your release so you can join a "thing" that has no drill or whatever.


----------



## medicineman

I find it difficult to inter relate discipline and education...in fact, I've found that some of these really smart and educated kids coming through the SEP system have absolutely ZERO military discipline or respect.  As an example, my NETP course was jam packed with these numpties - wouldn't/couldn't pay attention in class, were disrespectful to the instructors, looked like Irish tramps - Bags O'Shyte - and I've since found that a number of them became problems on their ships.  The problem with alot of really smart cookies is that they tend to over think things when they should be just doing them.  I find it interesting that when things start going the wrong way with people that are under the impression that because they're sick they don't have to respect people's rank and start beaking off, a sharp "stand at attention you!!" shuts them up, has them standing still and quiet and defuses the situation somewhat and gives people a chance to take a breath.  That happens, as GAP noted, as a reflex that comes from training.  Reaction to a command sometimes has to be instantaneous, like when someone says "STOP" because they just realized they're in a minefield, if you keep walking, badness wil occur.  The idea of any drill, be it foot drill or battle drills is simply to train the body so that it will function in a situation without thought, since people freeze under stress - this way the body will take over and get you alive through the initial shock.  I can name a number of occasions in emergencies where I'm still trying to figure out what happened, since the body was working independant of the brain because of training and rehearsal.  Parade square training helps facilitate that (as does classical martial arts training, etc).

BTW, yes, I do enjoy a good parade... and I don't enjoy doing drill all day every day just because though.   As for those that hate drill, just hope I'm not the Base Duty Dork when you're on defaulters  ;D.

MM


----------



## blacktriangle

I don't think anyone is saying there should be NO drill, but we are saying that its importance is being grossly overstated. It is useful for instilling a basic level of discipline in new soldiers and for conducting ceremonial/charge parades...full stop. 

Telling someone to "submit their release" because they don't see value in drill is pushing it. I don't know about you TV , but I want a competent leader...I don't care how sharply they wheel. From all accounts I've heard (no names, no pack drill!), Infanteer is just the kind of person that soldiers want to follow.


----------



## 57Chevy

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> I mention the education bit because drill worked back in the day



And it still works today.



			
				Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> because 100% of your soldiery were nose-picking farmers, thieves and ditch diggers



I doubt that.



			
				Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> Do we need it with the troops we have today?



Probably more than ever ;D




			
				Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> Troops who are arguably more intelligent, educated and technically more savvy than ever before.



Says who ?

Soldiers will always be pounding the parade square to utter perfection.
And perfection requires a lot of practice. As the saying goes....."Practice makes Perfect"


----------



## Infanteer

Technoviking said:
			
		

> You know what else you can do?  You can go frig yourself, that's what you can do
> 
> That the Roman Army was a highly efficient machine is not in question.  Why was it so?  Probably because of discipline (among other reasons).  Why did _Rome _ have successes and failures?  Political reasons, will to fight, etc.
> 
> Why don't you instead explain why drill has no place in a military and why it is useless as a tool to instill and maintain discipline in a profession force instead of bucking against it?  Or, better yet, submit your release so you can join a "thing" that has no drill or whatever.



Well, that was sweet.  Feel better now?  Are we all to submit our release papers when we challenge "conventional wisdom"?

I only challenged the statement that "drill = discipline" and that "discipline = battlefield success" made by others on this forum.  If there is no way of building this argument with a little data, then it is strictly opinion.


----------



## Towards_the_gap

57Chevy said:
			
		

> And it still works today.
> 
> Really? I have trained and led soldiers in combat, and drill had nothing to do with their performance
> 
> I doubt that.
> So you're telling me that the common dog rifleman in the 1800's was literate, could carry out grade 12 math, and was fluent in at least one other language?
> 
> Probably more than ever ;D
> How well do you know the soldiers of today's army?
> 
> 
> Soldiers will always be pounding the parade square to utter perfection.
> And perfection requires a lot of practice. As the saying goes....."Practice makes Perfect''
> 
> Well that's an intelligent response....''we do it cause we've always done it''


----------



## Towards_the_gap

Also, I agree that there is no inter-relation between education and discipline. However, I believe that ''imposed discipline'' is for the uneducated, and 'self-discipline' is for educated (by which I mean grade 12) soldiers. 

As stated earlier by myself and others, soldiers should do what they must not because it is ingrained in them to do so following a barked word of command, but because they know it is what must be done for whatever reason, because they themselves want to be seen as professional, and most importantly, so they do not let their mates down. In my experience this is not gained on the parade square but through challenging training in the field and operations themselves.


----------



## 57Chevy

Towards the Gap,

The soldiers that you trained with and led into combat, like yourself, have learned drill and
more than likely performed on the parade square.     No ?

Yes, you can rest assured that the common dog rifleman of the 1800s was educated for the
norm of his day. Just like soldiers today.....educated to the norm of our day.

That is not what I said ?
But you can go ahead and do drill "because we've always done it", if you want.
Like it or not......Drill will always be present in Military life. 
(It is easier when you begin to take a liking to it.)


----------



## a_majoor

Your argument is circular; they do it because "they know it is what must be done for whatever reason" does not explain _how_ they come to know this.

Drill is _one_ aspect of how it is done. The development of self-dicipline does not happen in a vacuum, and sadly many recruits , regardless of their mental ability, don't have the ability to stick with tasks under demanding, difficult or unusual conditions. The smartest guy in the room isn't much good to you when he is cowering in a corner or frozen in shock. Some form of mental conditioning is needed.

Now we can argue about the "best" way to do this. I personally would argue that some sort of "outward bound" type training may well be more effective and appropriate than traditional square bashing, and would love to find some way to test or prove this. I am also willing to be proven wrong as well.


----------



## mariomike

medicineman said:
			
		

> I find it difficult to inter relate discipline and education...in fact, I've found that some of these really smart and educated kids coming through the SEP system have absolutely ZERO military discipline or respect.



If college did not teach them to respect the profession, the uniform and equipment, or loyalty to the organization that puts food on their table, how can they respect the people they are paid to help? Can you imagine being partnered with some of them? Or, what sort of supervisors they will make one day in the CF? How can they manage others, when they can't even manage themselves?
I bet some of them aren't "kids" either.


----------



## 57Chevy

Shared with provisions of The Copyright Act

Civil War Library---DRILL! DRILL!! DRILL!!! FIGHT! FIGHT!! FIGHT!!! 
http://civilwarlibrarian.blogspot.com/2008/01/cwl-drill-drill-drill-fight-fight-fight.html

Drill, Training and the Combat Performance of the Civil War Soldier: Dispelling the Myth of the Poor Soldier, Great Fighter, Mark A. Weitz, Journal of Military History, 62 (April 1998): 263-289.

A theme irregularly runs through the military literature of the American Civil War: the worst soldiers made the best fighters and a wink towards the ragged rebels. To explain this characterization, some truisms are offered: a natural inclination towards fighting, the rural life, Celtic genes, and the strong ties of community and cousins. These explanations are couched in the notion of American, North and South, uniqueness. For Mark A. Weitz, these are not the answers. Civilians are made into good fighters by drill. The classical military definition of a professional army holds the answer. The effectiveness of drill and training is reported in the soldiers' statements. The soldiers' faith in training becomes obvious in their letters and diaries. 

Non-military explanations for combat effectiveness divides the concept of fighter from that of a soldier. The skills of a good soldier had to be mastered before he could be an effective fighter. A second problem with most explanations is that they discount the abilities of the trained soldiers. A proclivity for personal violence in the civilian world does not translate to controlled effective violence on the battlefield. Rural life may have acclimated to harsh weather, long and vigorous physical activity, meager meals but the will to overcome threats to personal survival and comfort would not follow from having lived in a rural agricultural environment. The idea of a Celtic gene residing in the blood of Southerners, a notion offered by Grady McWhiney before the movie Braveheart appeared, offers little in the way evidence that the gene exists or Southerners have it. 

Weitz first considers a definition of 'strong combat effectiveness'. Soldiers equated this a performing duty under fire while suppressing fear. In illustrating this, the author quotes both Frederick the Great of Prussia, Major Eugene Blackford of the 5th Alabama and Private Amos Steel of the 25th Massachusetts. The misperception that combat effectiveness came from environment and not from drill came from international observers. If the country had no significant military class and no military institutions with a storied past, then good soldiers could not be produced. How then did the American enlisted and and the American commissioned officer fight so well?

The stand of Prentiss' division at Shiloh, 1862, supports the traditional interpretation that training, drill, discipline and tactics contributes to combat effectiveness. Weitz briefly examines the military effectiveness of the ancient Sumerian army, the troops in the Thirty Years War and the army of Shaka Zulu in the 19th century. In each case, the transformation of civilians into soldiers is performed by drill in small and large units. Daily repetition of drills in company and battalion sized units. Patrick Cleburne, a former enlisted man in the British Army, relied on constant drill of his company, later regiment, then brigade and later division to become premier fighting units. Reliance on Hardee's Tactics, marching drill and rifle training were the keys to Cleburne's success as a battlefield commander. 

A variety of regimental commanders, North and South, attested to the importance of drill as a means attaining cohesion and efficiency on the march and on the battlefield. As a whole, the great strides that McClellan made with the Army of the Potomac after the Battle of Manassas was due in large measure to constant drilling. Wietz's cites regimental diaries throughout the army as a way of making this point. The tremendous losses in the first two years of the war did not impair the soldiers' faith that drilling was essential for battlefield cohesion. Emory Upton, one of the Army of the Potomac's best field commanders and a tactical innovator, denounced the notion that a poor soldiers could be made into a good fighter by anything other than drill. When soldiers failed on the battlefield, Upton felt it in most cases that it was not that the soldiers were undrilled by that the soldiers nonprofessional officers failed to lead.


----------



## Towards_the_gap

thu





			
				Thucydides said:
			
		

> Now we can argue about the "best" way to do this. I personally would argue that some sort of "outward bound" type training may well be more effective and appropriate than traditional square bashing, and would love to find some way to test or prove this. I am also willing to be proven wrong as well.



In this we are in agreement. There may be a better way to train and instill discipline, and from personal experience I know the most I ever learned about discipline and performance during demanding circumstances was during the survival phase of my JNCO cadre. It is those who think drill is the be-all and end-all of discipline and training that I take issue with.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> thu
> In this we are in agreement. There may be a better way to train and instill discipline, and from personal experience I know the most I ever learned about discipline and performance during demanding circumstances was during the survival phase of my JNCO cadre. It is those who think drill is the be-all and end-all of discipline and training that I take issue with.



And I think I can honestly say, there is not one of those people here. Even amogst us that advocate that drill is an essential military practice.


----------



## ModlrMike

Why then do we not look at drill as part of the training cycle? My last unit had CO's parade every Tuesday morning. Three hours of left right, left right per week. When other parades had to be done, there was little practice required.


----------



## Kat Stevens

So the drill haters' position is that parades take up valuable time that could be spent learning how to eat snakes, and other high speed ninja skills?  Really?  Soldiers still don't sit around the stores for hours on end waiting for the afternoon O Gp points that are inevitably "PT tomorrow, 07:20, dress for a run"?  If it was all training, all the time, I might see your point.  One point your missing is that unit parades are a no-to-low cost way of keeping troops occupied and focused.  With the budget going the way it is, better get them boots up to scratch, you're gonna be wearing them a lot for the foreseeable future.  Either that, or start letting troops go home when there's nothing going on, and we all know that's not going to happen.


----------



## aesop081

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> So the drill haters' position is that parades take up valuable time that could be spent learning how to eat snakes, and other high speed ninja skills?  Really?  Soldiers still don't sit around the stores for hours on end waiting for the afternoon O Gp points that are inevitably "PT tomorrow, 07:20, dress for a run"?  If it was all training, all the time, I might see your point.  One point your missing is that unit parades are a no-to-low cost way of keeping troops occupied and focused.  With the budget going the way it is, better get them boots up to scratch, you're gonna be wearing them a lot for the foreseeable future.  Either that, or start letting troops go home when there's nothing going on, and we all know that's not going to happen.



Kat,

I work in a unit that works 24/7 in 3 shifts. There is no breezway for the troops to either sweep or sit in. We launch and recover aircraft daily for both training and operational flights. There is no sitting around i stores for hours. When the troops are actualy at home base ( a pretty rare event as most training events are abroad) they have plenty of academics to absorb so yes, it is "all training, all the time". We don't need a "no-to-low cost way of keeping the troops occupied", we have plenty of ways to do it that accomplish something.

There was plenty of sitting around when i was in the CERs but there more to life in the CF than the combat arms.

And i'm the one who got told i come accross as having a limited perspective............


----------



## Kirkhill

A note to Germanophiles TV and Infanteer:

Terry Jones wrote a great book "Barbarians: An Alternative Roman History" wherein he describes the Roman World from the point of view of everybody BUT the Romans.  The are simply the hole in the Barbarian doughnut.

In that book he discusses the Goose-Steppers hero Hermann the German - aka Arminius - the German that beat Varus in the Teutoburg (9 AD/CE).  Hermann had actually received his training..... wait for it ..... in the Roman Army.  He was one of the 250,000 or so German Auxilliaries that infested the ranks of the Roman Army starting from the time that Marius reformed it (circa 100 BC(E) in response to a beating by the Cimbri and Teutons)  from the Upper Class Twit era.

Jones quotes Tacitus (ca 50 AD/CE):  

"The old German unsystematic battle-order and chaotic charges were things of the past.  Their long wars against Rome had taught them to* follow the standards*, keep troops in reserve and *obey commands*."


Drill, discipline and comportment beat Varus's Legions.


PS - and for those commenting about the use of swords - a nice little gladius would make a useful addition to any kit.  Useful point, enough heft to chop wood and short enough not to get in the way.  You could even put a lug on it so you could attach it to your rifle..... >


----------



## Kat Stevens

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Kat,
> 
> I work in a unit that works 24/7 in 3 shifts. There is no breezway for the troops to either sweep or sit in. We launch and recover aircraft daily for both training and operational flights. There is no sitting around i stores for hours. When the troops are actualy at home base ( a pretty rare event as most training events are abroad) they have plenty of academics to absorb so yes, it is "all training, all the time". We don't need a "no-to-low cost way of keeping the troops occupied", we have plenty of ways to do it that accomplish something.
> 
> There was plenty of sitting around when i was in the CERs but there more to life in the CF than the combat arms.
> 
> And i'm the one who got told i come accross as having a limited perspective............



I don't have a narrow perspective at all.  I can appreciate that in an undermanned and overworked unit, drill and ceremonial can and must take a back seat to doing your jobs or learning to do them.  In fact, it bugged me to no end to be doing Thursday morning parades when I had 2 AEVs and an AVLB with their guts out on the shop floor. 


edited for clarity.


----------



## mariomike

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> Jones quotes Tacitus (ca 50 AD/CE):
> "The old German unsystematic battle-order and chaotic charges were things of the past.  Their long wars against Rome had taught them to* follow the standards*, keep troops in reserve and *obey commands*."
> Drill, discipline and comportment beat Varus's Legions.



From "1918: Year of Victory" by Malcolm Brown an account from a British private in May 1918 ( page 133 ):
"They were all huge men, evidently Prussian Guards and they came forward in perfect order, all their actions were carried out with parade ground precision. They carried the rifle across the body, brought the muzzle down smartly, fired, and then carried back across the body.  There was something inhuman about these smart parade-ground movements on the battlefield, the Germans looking like a horde of robots, no haste, no flurry, just cold and calculating human machines."
"My impulse was to pick up my rifle and pick one or two Germans off, but I couldn't keep my rifle steady, I was shaking rather badly and taking aim was out of the question."


----------



## aesop081

Roman legions, the US civil war, 1918........

Good thing wars are still fought like that  :


----------



## Kirkhill

Perhaps a different tack then:

A agressive civilian fights because he/she wants to.  Likewise an aggressive soldier.  A pacifist soldier is a waste of oxygen and need not be discussed here except to note that armies need to recruit aggressive civilians and not pacifists and then convert them into soldiers in an army.

The question for me is: how do you train that agressive individual?  How do you train someone who fights when he/she WANTS to, and train them to fight when their Commanders want them to? And how do you train them for the more difficult task, I believe,  of training them NOT to fight, and equally not to flee, when their options close in to those two?

How do you train them to react to their Commanders' wishes in a timely fashion?  How do you convert them from a debating society, discussing all the options and only acting as they see fit, into a force of action that responds to command?

The problem is the same now as it was for Schlieffen and his Prussians, Lee and his Confederates, Arminius and his Teutons and Marius and  his mules.


----------



## Blackadder1916

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Roman legions, the US civil war, 1918........
> 
> Good thing wars are still fought like that  :



Actually there is not much difference in the essence of the activity.  It is still taking relatively ordinary young men (and now women) with an average education and generally average family and social backgrounds and organizing and training them to perform (despite what some erroneously think) what is an unfamiliar and unnatural task - the successful application of violence on other relatively ordinary young men with average education and generally average family and social backgrounds.  The things that have changed are the size of the organizations and the equipment that these relatively young men use.  Getting to that point where they can successfuly apply that violence involves training, a lot of which is (in an oversimplification) rote.  While at one time the rote learning of "drill" was for the tactical movement of troops, it is still probably the most cost effective means to instill the "most basic lessons" that all new soldiers need to learn - that they are no longer civilians (and should stop thinking like one), that they must work as a team and that they must respond to orders.  It also has added benefits in being an effective evaluation tool, an easy and organized method (still) of moving bodies of troops and (if done properly) poetry in motion to entertain and encourage.


----------



## aesop081

Dear Lord.......

You guys can keep on living in the middle ages of you want to. My troops and myself will keep training for tomorow's war.


----------



## a_majoor

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Roman legions, the US civil war, 1918........
> 
> Good thing wars are still fought like that  :



Maybe not wars in general, but I was once part of a platoon blocking a road on the Cypriot "green line" at the Mercedes gate (close to Richardson house AKA the paper factory for other old timers) with 2000 screaming demonstrators in front, minefields to either side and a company of Turkish army soldiers with bayonets fixed standing on their side of the fence. Keeping formation (especially after the gate was breached) was very important indeed. I think we can think back to events like Oka, former Yugoslavia and so on where this sort of thing came into play.

Good times......


----------



## medicineman

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> Also, I agree that there is no inter-relation between education and discipline. However, I believe that ''imposed discipline'' is for the uneducated, and 'self-discipline' is for educated (by which I mean grade 12) soldiers.



I disagree - as I've said, I've met some pretty educated people in my day that lack self-discipline, especially the smart ones that can get by on their natural intelligence.  Do you think some of those guys in my NETP would have the self-discipline to stay awake on duty when they couldn't/wouldn't stay awake to pay atention in a class that was meant to save their own life?  I'm willing to bet no - not without the threat of a charge or worse.   I'd suggest that kids/people with high school diplomas that HAD to work as well as go to school (and even those that had to work and dropped out of school to support their families) and succeeded likely have more self-discipline than the others, because they had to balance everything.   Imposed discipline across the board first, combined with self-discipline coming from within or taught to people is what makes soldiers of civilians IMHO.

MM


----------



## Good2Golf

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Dear Lord.......
> 
> You guys can keep on living in the middle ages of you want to. My troops airmen, airwomen and myself will keep training for tomorow's war.



There, fixed that for you.


----------



## aesop081

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> There, fixed that for you.



Sure. I will carry on calling them "troops" though


----------



## Old Sweat

I told myself over and over not to join in this recurring discussion which is going nowhere and which will come to an eventual pause without resolution. In my opinion there are two factors which colours the Canadian army’s approach to drill – an obsession which sometimes has seemed to me to confuse the parade square with the Promised Land. The first is that we are a British pattern army, with an excellent senior NCO cadre, and a fetish for fuss and feathers. The second factor is a generally competitive gene pool coupled with a desire for perfection. Now, there are other types of drill besides foot and arms drill. There is the old Second World War creature, battle drill, and the various natures of crew and detachment drill as well as the drill for individual skills. However, let’s concentrate on square bashing, because that is pretty well what we all think of when somebody says the d word.

I am not going to give you a long dissertation on the history of drill and how it had the same meaning as training in the 19th Century. Instead, let’s think about how our understanding of drill developed over the past 75 or so years. My take on it might be coming at it from a different angle, but mine is an historical approach, which should not be surprising. It seems to me that in the Second World War era, and probably into Korea and the start of the Cold War, our senior leadership believed as a matter of faith that the combat efficiency of a unit could be assessed by a formal parade and inspection. There is some evidence that the selection of units for certain tasks or their selection for disbandment relied on the impression they gave to a senior officer on parade. A battalion or regiment that performed well on the square, so the theory went, would do equally well in battle. The example used was usually the British Brigade of Guards, and helps explain why we created the Canadian Guards in the early fifties. As time went on and the Second World War leadership retired, a newer generation who also had fought in the war, but as more junior officers, emerged until they too retired in the early seventies.

These officers were often just as keen to take general salutes and inspect the troops, but they often wished to inspect the troops in the field and watch them do unit tasks. They also began to talk about tactical evaluations and test exercises, devices which their predecessors dismissed as “Americanisms” or gimmicks. As time went on, reliance on the formal parade and inspection as an evaluation of potential combat effectiveness waned, but in my opinion at least, it never disappeared completely nor is it likely to any time soon in the future. After all real warriors always had matching socks, grey, wool. Still, the flavour of the month in terms of assessing combat suitability seems to be the instrumented two-sided free play exercise combined with live fire training in realistic scenarios. Of interest, this first emerged as a concept for operational training in the 1960 Dare Report. Colonel Mike Dare was the commandant of the RCAC School at the time he headed the team that did the study that led to the report, and he went on to command 3 and then 4 CIBG, eventually rising to VCDS.

The trouble with all this is that training can be very expensive and lengthy. Perhaps it was too lengthy for the mission that is just ending, but there are few in the upper ranks who would describe it as ineffective. So what do we do? Is there really an emerging school in the Canadian army that considers drill a suitable substitute for training? Fortunately I am long retired – 17 years this fall – and am hence unable to inflict my theories on the troops, but it seems to me now is the time to be creative, not reactive. There is a time and a place for drill and for perfection on parade, but there are others activities that could well occupy the troops in an era of likely retrenchment.


----------



## dapaterson

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> There, fixed that for you.



He's just a Tac Hel wannabe...


----------



## aesop081

dapaterson said:
			
		

> He's just a Tac Hel wannabe...



Nice........ ;D


----------



## Neill McKay

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> My troops and myself will keep training for tomorow's war.



We hope it won't happen, of course, but tomorrow's war could involve a ship taking enough battle damage to require abandonment.  Never done it myself, obviously, but if the training video is anything to go by a foundation in drill is a definite asset in getting the ship's company off of the ship in an orderly (and therefore relatively safe) fashion.  That's at least one real-world, non-infantry, example of an application for drill training.


----------



## aesop081

N. McKay said:
			
		

> That's at least one real-world, non-infantry, example of an application for drill training.



My kids can evacuate their school in proper order too but they don't have their time wasted pounding pavement to the sound of "left right left" every time a new principal takes over. They certainly did not take "drill" as part of their classes.

I know how to evacuate my aircraft because 404 Sqn showed me how and we practice it regularly, it has sweet nothing to do with parade drill.

There are "drills" and then there is "drill".


----------



## Good2Golf

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Sure. I will carry on calling them "troops" though



Cake and eating it too.  Ack.

Most 'troops' I know, while they may not be it's biggest fan, conduct drill as a part of what their profession requires of them. 

Regards
G2G


----------



## aesop081

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Cake and eating it too.  Ack.
> 
> Most 'troops' I know, while they may not be it's biggest fan, conduct drill as a part of what their profession requires of them.
> 
> Regards
> G2G



I have always, and continue to do what i am asked to do and do it well. That being said, i do not have to like it, i do not see the need for most of it and do not buy the argument that it is a tool for teaching obedience or anything of the sort.


----------



## Good2Golf

...and you've made it amply clear that it isn't required for your airmen and airwomen to do their jobs properly.

So noted.


Regards
G2G


----------



## the 48th regulator

I will add some views based on historical aspect.

Rome fell, due to the fact most of her enemies were trained by the Roman Machine.  The "German Hordes" that finally invaded and defeated Rome, were mostly made up of former legionnaires trained by the Empire.

As for drill.  Well, the Roman empire had a road that spanned from one end to the other.  This was built by the Roman soldier.  Why?  As the saying goes idle hands are the Devil's playthings.  It was intended to keep the troops busy, so as boredom did not fester, and cause decay.

Now, when talking about modern times.  I am totally for constant training, however, as been pointed out, a good old fashioned parade is a hell of a lot cheaper than a day on the range.  It involves all ranks, and justifies employment to the treasury board.

If we can find alternative methods of keeping the troops busy, interested, and saving money, then I am willing to hear the opinion from anyone on this thread.

dileas

tess


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Dear Lord.......
> 
> You guys can keep on living in the middle ages of you want to. My troops and myself will keep training for tomorow's war.



Well if you know how tomorrow's war will be fought then you must really be Nostradamus.......................don't flatter yourself, you are training for what you, and your troops/ superior's, THINK will be "tomorrow's war".

Your line of thinking has led to many a colossus failare.


----------



## blacktriangle

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Well if you know how tomorrow's war will be fought then you must really be Nostradamus.......................don't flatter yourself, you are training for what you, and your troops/ superior's, THINK will be "tomorrow's war".
> 
> Your line of thinking has led to many a colossus failare.



He's an AES Op. His job requires him to train so that he can ____ and supervise others in the conduct of ___. By doing this he is fulfilling his small piece of the puzzle that is the greater CF. The same can be said for just about every trade. None of us may know what the next war entails, but I am pretty sure it won't be won with drill. We need drill for ceremonial reasons, nothing more. 

I have noticed that a lot of people feel the CF won't be doing "anything" now that the Kandahar mission is winding down. True there might be less action for the Cbt Arms, but real training still needs to be done when possible. As for everyone else from AES Ops to RMS Clks to Shift workers at Leitrim...business as usual.


----------



## Gunner98

recceguy said:
			
		

> Want to fly and be a gluebag? Join Air Canada. I've got no time for Tom Hank's Top Gun wannabees.



I have resisted replying to this topic (even though SuperMax and recceguy both seem to think it wants Hanks and not Cruise that starred in Top Gun) but can do so no longer.  Drill is not just ceremonial otherwise the manual would be called Ceremonial and not Drill and Ceremonial (http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/Downloads/cfp201.pdf)

Have we all forgotten the 'all CF members are soldiers first' mantra that was so popular under General Rick.  

I have found it useful in many ways to incorporate regular parades (weekly/monthly/as required) into the workdays of a(ny) unit to pass information, present awards/promotions and recognize individual or group efforts in garrison and on field exercise.  Forming people into ranks tells them that it is important that everyone hears the same message and afforded the same recognition.   Having junior leaders who are capable of forming, sizing and marching troops as a basic skill set should be maintained regardless of unit that is why it is still a module of the PLQ.  The fact that officers are rusty or negligent in maintaining their drill competencies is a command and leadership issue.  A Service/Branch of the CF should never become so afraid of the parade square that it moves his recognition ceremonies to auditoriums as a routine.

Freedoms of the City, Partnership parades and sunset ceremonies throughout my career are remembered with pride.  Were they perfect ceremonies - no - but every effort was made to ensure they were dignified attempts to demonstrate pride, leadership and teamwork.

I find the insistence by some that drill is a thing of the past is more about complacency and laziness.  A parade does not need to be an arduous affair to symbolize to all ranks in a unit that dignity and integrity remain important military values. 

CFP 201 Chapter 1 excerpts:  

2. The aim of drill and ceremonial is to contribute to the operational effectiveness of the CF by:

a. ensuring that the CF efficiently march and manoeuvre together as one in duty and routine; and

b. promoting discipline, alertness, precision, pride, steadiness and the cohesion necessary for success.

3. Drill is the basis of all teamwork...

17. The hallmarks of CF drill are efficiency,precision and dignity. These qualities are developed through self-discipline and practice. They lead to unit
pride and cohesion...

19. Military troops which display constant competence in drill are recognized universally as highly trained, well-disciplined and professional.
Drill that is well taught and executed develops individual pride, mental alertness, precision and esprit-de-corps which will assist the individual
service member to carry out orders instinctively at all times.

20. Good drill, well rehearsed, closely supervised and precise, is an exercise in obedience and alertness. It sets the standard for the execution
of any duty, both for the individual and the unit, and builds a sense of confidence between commander and subordinate that is essential to high morale.

21. The personal qualities developed on the parade ground must be maintained in all aspects of military life. Commanders must insist on the same
high standards both on and off parade to instill these qualities strongly enough to endure the strain of military duty in peace or war. The systematic
correction of minor errors strengthens these characteristics and improves both individual and unit standards.


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## jollyjacktar

N. McKay said:
			
		

> We hope it won't happen, of course, but tomorrow's war could involve a ship taking enough battle damage to require abandonment.  Never done it myself, obviously, but if the training video is anything to go by a foundation in drill is a definite asset in getting the ship's company off of the ship in an orderly (and therefore relatively safe) fashion.  That's at least one real-world, non-infantry, example of an application for drill training.



And that, is why we have the Damage Control School, Sea Trainers, Fire Ex's during duty watches etc etc.  These situations are drilled into our lives as sailors and I suppose could be compared to the field training that the Army conducts.  Lots of nice response to situations and commands to make sure you keep the motto To Float, To Move, To Fight.  No wasted time spent square bashing to ensure discipline is instilled where and when it is needed to fit the Navy's needs.  Just as CDN Aviator feels fits the needs of today's Air Force.  If the Army types feel the need to square bash to get in their daily requirement of discipline, well so be it and more power to them I say.  I remember the countless hours/days of prep and execution for the GOC Inspection of Jimmy Cox et al in Calgary in the early 90's and don't miss it at all.  Weeks of my life I'll never get back...


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## aesop081

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> I find the insistence by some that drill is a thing of the past is more about *complacency* and *laziness*.



I will be sure to pass that on to my leaders. Those are words that none of them have seen fit to use in any of my assesments over the years. I guess i fooled them all the way to my current rank.

Regardless, i will withdraw from this topic and wish everyone a great Sunday.


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## Pieman

My thoughts on this are that even at a high tempo, there was plenty of extra time for more drill (among the lower ranks anyway).

The months (literally - when you add it all up) in regiment of sitting around the cage with our thumbs up our butts, and not being allowed to go anywhere, or do anything (including PT or some kind of training) were the most demoralizing times for me in the army. All because they want you right there just in case someone needs you for something, maybe.  If we had drill practice once a week, at least that would have killed some time and made us feel like we were at least doing something for our paycheque. Better yet, it would have been great to do some training related to our job, perhaps self study courses. Oh well, easier to lock people in a cage and pull them out only when needed. On that note, too much drill would be the same thing as locking people in a cage. There has to be a happy medium.

I cringe at the thought of things slowing down, and wonder how people survived the cold war without hanging themselves from boredom.


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## daftandbarmy

I recall a fairly sensible and practical daily routine we used to follow in the old battalion:

Coy muster Pde at 0800 every day we were in barracks. It took about 30 minutes as I recall.

Dress of the day? Whatever the training plan demanded.

The OC would inspect one platoon each day. Pl Comd's inspected the others.

There was none of that "get there by 0700 so the Sect Comd can inspect you befor ethe Pl Comd inspects you at 0730 before the OC inspects you at 0800" junk. We're all adults and can read the training plan, so we knew what to wear.

Another bonus was that, because we did the same parade pretty much every dayt we were in barracks, junior NCMs could take over and act as Sect Comds etc as a way to get them ready for various leadership courses. A good confidence builder for them, as well as we freshly minted officers. Also, if someone was missing for any reason (courses, jail etc) anyone could stand in for him.

Basic dril was pretty good as a result, as was the standard of dress and equipment, so we could ramp it up pretty quick for a big event as required.

Just like anything else, good drills get you a good grounding in the basics.


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## Old Sweat

Let me throw in another example of drill that we took to an extreme in the gunners, and for good reason. We had our own version of Voice Procedure called Artillery Fire Orders or AFO. It was abbreviated and call signs were dropped after the original link was made. For example, "1, This is 11, Fire Mission Battery, over." "1, Fire Mission Battery, out." (All transmissions were written down and read back by the artillery communicator as quickly as possible and the logs were retained in case of error.) From then on all call signs were dropped and all other stations stayed off the air, unless there was information of tactical importance, which was only passed after the battery had reported "shot" which meant a round was in the air. The aim was to shave seconds or even tenths of seconds off the response time (how much time does sending "1, This is 11" take up each time it is used?) as well as to use something as rigid and demandingly accurate as computer code, if anybody had even dreamed of it when AFO was established.

To the other arms we sounded like babblers or chipmunks on steroids as we sent and acknowledged messages in hyperspeak, but it worked and maybe this time around, it saved some Canadian lives. To the unitiated it sounder like "1thisis11,firemissionbattery,over" all in one breath, and responded to by "1firemissionbattery,out." We spent hours and hours practising it and that included officers.


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## Pusser

After having read through all of this, one point keeps coming to mind.  To all those drill-detractors, what makes you think that drill has no place in modern operations?  I can tell you from experience and observation that drill is very much a component of operational success.  All you have to do is look:

1)  what is fleet maneuvering, other than drill with ships?

2)  what is damage control at sea, other than drill with lumber and plugs?

3) what is fire-fighting, other than drill with hoses?

4)  what is communication between ops rooms, other than drill with radios and computers?

5)  what is launching sonobouys from a Sea King other drill with sonobouys?

6)  what is a section attack, other than drill over and around obstacles with various weapons?

7) what do soldiers doing riot control (aid to civil power) do, other than a modified form of parade drill with shields and batons?


I could go on, but my point is that all of these are practiced movements made in response to commands.  We do them over and over again until we have drilled them into our minds so that we can perform competently and efficiently.  Good drill, of any type, starts with a mindset.  An easy way to start to develop that mindset is on a parade square.  It's cheap.  It's easy and it doesn't put anyone's life at risk before we give them a firearm or a multi-million dollar piece of equipment.  

Even after basic training we continue it because it has a ceremonial function, which is part of the fabric of who we are.   I've been on plenty of bad parades, but I can honestly say that the bad ones were a result of leadership, who didn't feel it was important enough or who thought they were doing us a favour by "simplifying" it (dispensing with a guard and band).  I have never felt put upon by having to go on parade for change of command or presentation, but I've often felt cheated when someone decided a parade wasn't necessary for something that was important to me.  When I was on NATO staff in Bosnia, my medal parade was cancelled in favour of an Oktoberfest celebration, so I received my medal in an office and I had to arrange for that myself!

Do Napoleonic linear tactics (from which parade square drill is derived) have anything to do with modern warfare?  Probably about as much as a degree in medieval French literature has to do with becoming a MARS officer, but we still expect a MARS officer to have degree and medieval French literature is perfectly acceptable.  We sometimes spend too much time thinking about the specific applications of our training and education and neglect the more general aspects, which can be just as important.  As a logistics officer, I don't grease engines, but that doesn't mean that my training years ago as a diesel mechanic has not helped to make me a better at what I do now.  Drill is not the be all and end all of military training, but it is certainly a part of it.  That being the case, it is worth doing well.

I'll close with a story.  A few years ago, I was observing the Battle of the Atlantic parade in Toronto.  I was in uniform on the sidewalk watching the parade when a young lady in yoga pants, a tank top, rollerblades and nose ring approached me and asked what was going on.  So I explained it to her.  She was fascinated and thrilled and thanked me profusely for the history lesson.  She went away with an entirely new perspective on the Canadian Forces, Canadian History and the military in general.  In other words, the CF made a positive connection with somebody that day - because of a parade.  It was hardly a useless of meaningless endeavour.


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## Towards_the_gap

As a 'drill detractor', I want to note that the point cdn_aviator and I are making is not against training by way of drills per se, but rather we are making a case against excessive and needless parade square tick-tocking, and also we are putting a point across that we see no correllation between the parade square and the battleground. As he pointed out, the examples given were from the 19th and early 20th century, where certainly parade ground practice led to battlefield success. 

However, I'd like to hear from someone who, having fought in Afghanistan, directly attributes the same success to hours spent marching up and down the square.

I myself don't see it. But I am not arguing for abolishing drill altogether, just using our time, and our troops time, more effectively and wisely, rather than doing  something most regard as a PITA simply because it's cheap and we've always done it. Here in Pet there is more training venues and possibilities than you can shake a stick at, all low-to-nil cost, and all certainly more valuable than ceremonial drill. All that is required is some imagination and some leg work/e-mail chasing to book it.


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## Michael OLeary

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> ..., but rather we are making a case against excessive and needless parade square tick-tocking, ....



Who was arguing for that?


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## Ex-Dragoon

Pusser said:
			
		

> I'll close with a story.  A few years ago, I was observing the Battle of the Atlantic parade in Toronto.  I was in uniform on the sidewalk watching the parade when a young lady in yoga pants, a tank top, rollerblades and nose ring approached me and asked what was going on.  So I explained it to her.  She was fascinated and thrilled and thanked me profusely for the history lesson.  She went away with an entirely new perspective on the Canadian Forces, Canadian History and the military in general.  In other words, the CF made a positive connection with somebody that day - because of a parade.  It was hardly a useless of meaningless endeavour.



But was she hot?


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## OldSolduer

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> As a 'drill detractor', I want to note that the point cdn_aviator and I are making is not against training by way of drills per se, but rather we are making a case against excessive and needless parade square tick-tocking, and also we are putting a point across that we see no correllation between the parade square and the battleground. As he pointed out, the examples given were from the 19th and early 20th century, where certainly parade ground practice led to battlefield success.
> 
> However, I'd like to hear from someone who, having fought in Afghanistan, directly attributes the same success to hours spent marching up and down the square.
> 
> I myself don't see it. But I am not arguing for abolishing drill altogether, just using our time, and our troops time, more effectively and wisely, rather than doing  something most regard as a PITA simply because it's cheap and we've always done it. Here in Pet there is more training venues and possibilities than you can shake a stick at, all low-to-nil cost, and all certainly more valuable than ceremonial drill. All that is required is some imagination and some leg work/e-mail chasing to book it.



And I agree with you, for the most part. I do not see the point in marching up and down the square for hours, nor do I see the point in having C6 or C7 refresher training every second day because "there's nothing else to do". 

Drill is the basis from which you can build on. It is not dangerous, doesn't involve live fire. You can formulate opinions on how recruits can perform under some pressure prior to giving them weapons and ammuntion. Just my  :2c:


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## Kirkhill

> 7) what do soldiers doing riot control (aid to civil power) do, other than a modified form of parade drill with shields and batons?



Right then, here's the solution.....

Issue shields and batons,  add a couple of paragraphs to the manual of Drill and Ceremonial to accomodate the required "Order, Arms" drill and then you can designate half the square bashing time as ACP training - and all those fancier moves that seldom get practiced will suddenly become useful when placed in context of manoeuvering in the face of an enemy (even if they are just youngsters in black balaclavas with rocks).


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## Michael OLeary

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> Right then, here's the solution.....



No, the solution is not to make up reasons to do extra drill. The solution is to rationalize what drill is needed, and to establish how to maintain required competencies with a minimum of chickenshit to ensure that any anticipated events requiring presentable drill can be achieved with a minimum of special preparatory practice. It is also reasonable to assume that the level of expectation regarding types of events and the drill required for them will not be the same for each type of unit.


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## Fishbone Jones

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> As a 'drill detractor', I want to note that the point cdn_aviator and I are making is not against training by way of drills per se, but rather we are making a case against excessive and needless parade square tick-tocking, and also we are putting a point across that we see no correllation between the parade square and the battleground. As he pointed out, the examples given were from the 19th and early 20th century, where certainly parade ground practice led to battlefield success.
> 
> However, I'd like to hear from someone who, having fought in Afghanistan, directly attributes the same success to hours spent marching up and down the square.
> 
> I myself don't see it. But I am not arguing for abolishing drill altogether, just using our time, and our troops time, more effectively and wisely, rather than doing  something most regard as a PITA simply because it's cheap and we've always done it. Here in Pet there is more training venues and possibilities than you can shake a stick at, all low-to-nil cost, and all certainly more valuable than ceremonial drill. All that is required is some imagination and some leg work/e-mail chasing to book it.



As has been noted numerous times in this thread, there is not one person here that is advocating endless hours of parade square bashing. Some people are just failing to read the whole story in their drive to post something to get rid of drill altogether. 

It's simply a skill to be maintained the same as weapons handling, ship's docking procedures or aircraft marshalling.

That way we don't become an embarrassment to ourselves in front of dignitaries like HRH, or our Vets and public on Remembrance Day, etc.

My, and I dare say most, Reserve units manage less than an hours practice before we get on the bus to head for the cenotaph. That's all it takes so that we don't look like that uncoordinated, uncontrolled embarrassing gaggle in the previous picture. I can almost guarantee what is going through the mind of that Army Chief standing off to the right hand side of the formation.

If Reservists can do it, with the limited time they have available, there is no excuse for full time CF members not to be able to accomplish this most basic of tasks, no matter what element they are from.


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## Halifax Tar

Here in Halifax we have the "Base Standing Guard" which fills most formal/ceremonial occasions where drill is required. This is usually made up of UIC 0100 unit's junior members and selected personnel to fill certain parade postions. 

Having said this I know on my last ship, HMCS Toronto, we had "hands fall in" or "divions" at least once a month. 

I personally have not done drill sense the last ramp ceremony I attended on KAF (May/June 2010). 

1 hous(ish) a month, of drill, is plenty. I don't think anyone can argue that is too much.


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## OldSolduer

Recceguy, last fall I was invited to be the Guard Sergeant Major on the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders of Canada 100th Anniversary Freedom of the City parade.  I think we might have had two hours practise.
Funny thing is I'm a Royal Winnipeg Rifle, so our drill is totally opposite of all I knew as a Reg Force PPCLI Sgt. 

So I'm a Rifle, on parade with a Highland Regiment, and for the most part...doing PPCLI drill. The hardest part was the pace of a Highland "Quick" march.


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## Fishbone Jones

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Recceguy, last fall I was invited to be the Guard Sergeant Major on the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders of Canada 100th Anniversary Freedom of the City parade.  I think we might have had two hours practise.
> Funny thing is I'm a Royal Winnipeg Rifle, so our drill is totally opposite of all I knew as a Reg Force PPCLI Sgt.
> 
> So I'm a Rifle, on parade with a Highland Regiment, and for the most part...doing PPCLI drill. The hardest part was the pace of a Highland "Quick" march.



Even so, because of a solid foundation and regular use of drill, there was likely no problems adapting and looking professional.

Hardly "Quick" more like, "By the left' stroll" ;D I dread having to march on parade with our local Highland unit 8)


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## daftandbarmy

recceguy said:
			
		

> Even so, because of a solid foundation and regular use of drill, there was likely no problems adapting and looking professional.
> 
> Hardly "Quick" more like, "By the left' stroll" ;D I dread having to march on parade with our local Highland unit 8)



Wearing a swinging kilt, and the camouflage provided by a pipe band, helps....  ;D


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## Fishbone Jones

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Wearing a swinging kilt, and the camouflage provided by a pipe band, helps....  ;D



Hard to get that swish and sway down if you're marching normally


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## OldSolduer

recceguy said:
			
		

> Hard to get that swish and sway down if you're marching normally



Even harder at 140 to the minute....plus the problem of the Double Past.......


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## Rifleman62

At the Trail.


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## Pusser

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> But was she hot?



Oh yeah!


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## OldSolduer

Pusser said:
			
		

> Oh yeah!



Ummmm I don't suppose you took a picture??


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## Rifleman62

> My, and I dare say most, Reserve units manage less than an hours practice before we get on the bus to head for the cenotaph.



When HRH Prince Charles visited The Royal Winnipeg Rifles for the first time as Colonel-in-Chief, Apr 79, we had one night of practice (3 hours). An excellent parade was conduced. 

HRH in his remarks "I have been called many things, but never before a Little Black Devil".



> I dread having to march on parade with our local Highland unit.



Just swagger and roll with the pipes and drums.


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## Pusser

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Ummmm I don't suppose you took a picture??



I think that would have been a tad crass.  Besides, my memory of what I thought I saw is usually much better than any photograph.  Sailors's stories, like fine wine, get better with age! ;D


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## Pusser

recceguy said:
			
		

> Even so, because of a solid foundation and regular use of drill, there was likely no problems adapting and looking professional.
> 
> Hardly "Quick" more like, "By the left' stroll" ;D I dread having to march on parade with our local Highland unit 8)



I still remember practicing for the sunrise service  at the Earl's Court Legion (Toronto) many years ago.  As we were marching up and down the square, the petty officer who was drilling us (and who was not known for political correctness) said, "and remember that you will be marching slower than normal because you will be behind a bunch of Presbyterian bag-squeezers!"  At this point, all semblance of order was then lost.  Nevertheless, we acquitted ourselves quite well on the day itself and the post-ceremony coffee with breakfast  back at the legion hall was outstanding!

My apoligies to anyone offended by the aforementioned comment, but it's difficult to censor something that was actually said.  I also remembered thinking at the time that most Highlanders are actually Catholic, but thought better of mentioning that little factoid...


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## Kirkhill

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> No, the solution is not to make up reasons to do extra drill. The solution is to rationalize what drill is needed, and to establish how to maintain required competencies with a minimum of chickenshit to ensure that any anticipated events requiring presentable drill can be achieved with a minimum of special preparatory practice. It is also reasonable to assume that the level of expectation regarding types of events and the drill required for them will not be the same for each type of unit.



Fair enough.  Apologies for another Kirkhill flash in the pan.


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## daftandbarmy

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> Right then, here's the solution.....
> 
> Issue shields and batons,  add a couple of paragraphs to the manual of Drill and Ceremonial to accomodate the required "Order, Arms" drill and then you can designate half the square bashing time as ACP training - and all those fancier moves that seldom get practiced will suddenly become useful when placed in context of manoeuvering in the face of an enemy (even if they are just youngsters in black balaclavas with rocks).



Oh, I like riots ... stop teasing me  ;D

Anyways, I would say that it's all part of that 'morale' thing. If you've got good morale, you can do anything. If not, you can't even do a little foot drill :

"Too, the definition cuts through one of the oldest myths in the military book - that morale comes from discipline....The process is precisely the reverse: whether on the field of battle or in 'pirouetting up and down a barrack yard' as Carnot's phrase has it, true discipline is the product of morale." - S.L.A. Marshal, Men Against Fire, 1947


http://regimentalrogue.com/quotes/quotes_discipline3.htm


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## PanaEng

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Anyways, I would say that it's all part of that 'morale' thing. If you've got good morale, you can do anything. If not, you can't even do a little foot drill :
> 
> "Too, the definition cuts through one of the oldest myths in the military book - that morale comes from discipline....The process is precisely the reverse: whether on the field of battle or in 'pirouetting up and down a barrack yard' as Carnot's phrase has it, true discipline is the product of morale." - S.L.A. Marshal, Men Against Fire, 1947
> 
> http://regimentalrogue.com/quotes/quotes_discipline3.htm



ding, ding, ding, ding...
We have a winner!
(now I'm going to click on the little button with the x on it and hope to never see this thread again...
an hour of my life that I'll never get back - was like slowing down on the hway to see the accident on the other lanes)
on second thought, I guess some things needed to said and they were said; and I won't repeat them  :-X


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## Journeyman

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Anyways, I would say that it's all part of that 'morale' thing. If you've got good morale, you can do anything. If not, you can't even do a little foot drill


 Soldiers complain; it's in the rules. 
If your biggest complaint is periodically doing drill for having taken the Queen's shilling, I'd suggest that life isn't too bad.


Mind you, as Will Rogers said, "we can't all be heroes; someone has to sit on the curb and clap as the parade goes by." 
Personally, I can sit in the bleachers, listening to a military band and watch slow marching all day.  ;D


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## dapaterson

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Soldiers complain; it's in the rules.
> If your biggest complaint is periodically doing drill for having taken the Queen's shilling, I'd suggest that life isn't too bad.
> 
> 
> Mind you, as Will Rogers said, "we can't all be heroes; someone has to sit on the curb and clap as the parade goes by."
> Personally, I can sit in the bleachers, *[size=10pt]drinking a cold beer ,*listening to a military band and watch slow marching all day.  ;D[/size]



Fixed that for you.


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## Kirkhill

Ah, Scipio....


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