# Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization



## OceanBonfire (4 Sep 2019)

> *Uniform, camouflage and equipment modernization process marches on*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Zoomie (4 Sep 2019)

> It is most closely associated with the Canadian Army but it is also worn by Navy and Air Force personnel when they work within Army lines.


Apparently the author is blissfully unaware that LWCC is the dress of the day for all RCAF personnel (exception being aircrew).  None of us work within "army lines".


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## OldSolduer (4 Sep 2019)

From the time I joined in 1975 until I retired from the Regular Force in 1999 the only camouflage we received was the garrison jacket.


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## Jarnhamar (4 Sep 2019)

So 10 years from the time the project started until the full roll out will begin. The same amount of time it took us to fight and win WW1 and WW2 combined.


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## Ostrozac (4 Sep 2019)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> From the time I joined in 1975 until I retired from the Regular Force in 1999 the only camouflage we received was the garrison jacket.



Not quite, there were also helmet covers for the steel pots!


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## OldSolduer (4 Sep 2019)

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> Not quite, there were also helmet covers for the steel pots!



Oh of course. Please forgive me for my memory


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## Oldgateboatdriver (4 Sep 2019)

I literally don't have a clue what a f**ck*** Army line is, but, assuming for instance that it includes any base under the direction of the Army (the old "camps"), I seem to recall a CANFORGEN that stated that  Naval personnel will wear the NCD when "combat" is the dress of the day, except when wearing the Cadpat is required for operational reasons.

And Hamish, you forgot also: in winter, we wore "whites" - that's a camouflage.


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## OldSolduer (4 Sep 2019)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> I literally don't have a clue what a f**ck*** Army line is, but, assuming for instance that it includes any base under the direction of the Army (the old "camps"), I seem to recall a CANFORGEN that stated that  Naval personnel will wear the NCD when "combat" is the dress of the day, except when wearing the Cadpat is required for operational reasons.
> 
> And Hamish, you forgot also: in winter, we wore "whites" - that's a camouflage.



Once again you are correct.


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## Eye In The Sky (4 Sep 2019)

Ditch said:
			
		

> Apparently the author is blissfully unaware that LWCC is the dress of the day for all RCAF personnel (exception being aircrew).  None of us work within "army lines".



_By Eric De Lafontaine, Manager – Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization, Directorate of Soldier Systems Program Management_

The only way the article could be worse was if they let the people who manage the CAF social media write-ups do it.  The crap that comes out on the various FB pages is pretty brutal...who is letting these people be the 'face/voice' of the CAF these days?  and why??


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## Eye In The Sky (4 Sep 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> So 10 years from the time the project started until the full roll out will begin. The same amount of time it took us to fight and win WW1 and WW2 combined.



_With the final decision expected no later than 2022 and a full roll out 2027, the interim years will see mixed uniforms and equipment as items in the new pattern are gradually acquired and put into service._

Jesus...the CAF just seemed to get thru the mix-match of OD combats and CADPAT...might as well start the visual gong-show up again so we can go back to looking like a wild turkey hunting club again.  

It's too bad the CAF has come to accept the underlined part above as 'ops normal'.


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## daftandbarmy (4 Sep 2019)

Ummmm.... can't we just point at CANSOFCOM and say 'I'll have what they're having, please?'.


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## BDTyre (5 Sep 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Ummmm.... can't we just point at CANSOFCOM and say 'I'll have what they're having, please?'.



Too easy and it makes too much sense (and probably costs less). So...no.


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## FSTO (5 Sep 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> _By Eric De Lafontaine, Manager – Soldier Operational Clothing and Equipment Modernization, Directorate of Soldier Systems Program Management_
> 
> *The only way the article could be worse was if they let the people who manage the CAF social media write-ups do it.  The crap that comes out on the various FB pages is pretty brutal...who is letting these people be the 'face/voice' of the CAF these days*?  and why??



The worst one I recently saw was of the RCN Twitter page saying that NTOG was the same as US Navy SEALS. They got a severe bollocking over that faux pas!


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## Cloud Cover (5 Sep 2019)

Because the US Navy Seals only wish they were elite NTOG members!


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## FSTO (5 Sep 2019)

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> Because the US Navy Seals only wish they were elite NTOG members!


  :nod::rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## daftandbarmy (5 Sep 2019)

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> Because the US Navy Seals only wish they were elite NTOG members!



... or at least received the same pay and benefits


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## ballz (5 Sep 2019)

Ditch said:
			
		

> Apparently the author is blissfully unaware that LWCC is the dress of the day for all RCAF personnel (exception being aircrew).  None of us work within "army lines".



I don't know what  LWCC stands for but we definitely have some air force FSAs working in Army units / HQs and they are wearing CADPAT.


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## mariomike (5 Sep 2019)

ballz said:
			
		

> I don't know what  LWCC stands for



Light Weight Combat Clothing ( LWCC )
https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ACYBGNTL6i1JoHUNbj23PIzOyUl8MH8BLQ%3A1567716666772&ei=OnVxXcnaLtCq_QaR7b7QDg&q=site%3Aarmy.ca+%22light+weight+combat+clothing%22+lwcc&oq=site%3Aarmy.ca+%22light+weight+combat+clothing%22+lwcc&gs_l=psy-ab.3...2795.4498..5237...0.0..0.197.741.0j5......0....1..gws-wiz.mv83DFaltnQ&ved=0ahUKEwjJ35_Yx7rkAhVQVd8KHZG2D-oQ4dUDCAs&uact=5#spf=1567716855571


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## Eye In The Sky (5 Sep 2019)

Yup - our Div dress order covers how to wear both LWCC and the ECU.


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## Furniture (6 Sep 2019)

The trial pattern looks pretty reasonable to me, as for the roll out timeline I imagine it will be staggered by base much like the CADPAT roll out was. 

There is no need for most RCAF/RCN pers to be in a camouflage uniform at all, so using up the less than optimal camouflage uniforms in those environments makes good sense. If RCAF, RCN, and pers basic training stick to the CADPAT TW until stocks are used up, then switch to the new pattern it stands to reason that the rollout of new uniforms could take years to complete.


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## daftandbarmy (6 Sep 2019)

Furniture said:
			
		

> The trial pattern looks pretty reasonable to me, as for the roll out timeline I imagine it will be staggered by base much like the CADPAT roll out was.
> 
> There is no need for most RCAF/RCN pers to be in a camouflage uniform at all, so using up the less than optimal camouflage uniforms in those environments makes good sense. If RCAF, RCN, and pers basic training stick to the CADPAT TW until stocks are used up, then switch to the new pattern it stands to reason that the rollout of new uniforms could take years to complete.



Or just give all the stuff that you want to get rid of faster to the training bases and the Combat Arms


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## FSTO (6 Sep 2019)

Furniture said:
			
		

> The trial pattern looks pretty reasonable to me, as for the roll out timeline I imagine it will be staggered by base much like the CADPAT roll out was.
> 
> There is no need for most RCAF/RCN pers to be in a camouflage uniform at all, so using up the less than optimal camouflage uniforms in those environments makes good sense. If RCAF, RCN, and pers basic training stick to the CADPAT TW until stocks are used up, then switch to the new pattern it stands to reason that the rollout of new uniforms could take years to complete.



That's just crazy talk! You must outfit the chairborne warriors at Startop first, then the frontline troopies of Ostfront Carling. Then if anything is left over, maybe send something to the hinterlands of Petawawa.


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## Furniture (6 Sep 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Or just give all the stuff that you want to get rid of faster to the training bases and the Combat Arms



If the RCAF went back to a modernized work dress similar to NCDs (current or new pattern) for use on base I'd be all for it. Not much is more ridiculous to me than walking around a weather office in a camouflage uniform. The job of the Jr Met Techs requires a more practical uniform than 3s, but does not require CADPAT with safely boots.


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## Jarnhamar (6 Sep 2019)

Burn down our procurement system and put a new one in.

Put everyone in multicam. 

Same style/cut CANSOF uses.  Army, Navy, Airforce. Wear it in the field and in the office. 

DEUs for parades and other functions.

Everyone gets a boot allowance.


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## dimsum (6 Sep 2019)

Furniture said:
			
		

> If the RCAF went back to a modernized work dress similar to NCDs (current or new pattern) for use on base I'd be all for it. Not much is more ridiculous to me than walking around a weather office in a camouflage uniform. The job of the Jr Met Techs requires a more practical uniform than 3s, but does not require CADPAT with safely boots.



The safety boot thing is another RCAF screwup.  Very few people, and even not all aircrew, need safety boots.  

Also, the new NCD is the same cut (more or less) than the newer CADPAT aside from colours and fire-retardant properties.  I personally think we should have gone in with the Navy and got NCDs (AFCDs?) too.


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## my72jeep (6 Sep 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Burn down our procurement system and put a new one in.
> 
> Put everyone in multicam.
> 
> ...


In the new military everyone is special, taking away their cadpat will diminish the ability to tell stories at the leagion. Thus creating a whole new line of PTSD claims.


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## Eye In The Sky (6 Sep 2019)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> The safety boot thing is another RCAF screwup.  Very few people, and even not all aircrew, need safety boots.
> 
> Also, the new NCD is the same cut (more or less) than the newer CADPAT aside from colours and fire-retardant properties.  I personally think we should have gone in with the Navy and got NCDs (AFCDs?) too.



We had the RCAF CWO at the Sqn last...spring?  He said the boot issue is being looked at and the intent is to go the way the Army did.  Honestly...most, if not a lot, of people (aircrew, at least) seem to be buying their own boots and wearing them.  Who wants to walk around in 5-6 lbs of steel toe boots?


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## daftandbarmy (6 Sep 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> We had the RCAF CWO at the Sqn last...spring?  He said the boot issue is being looked at and the intent is to go the way the Army did.  Honestly...most, if not a lot, of people (aircrew, at least) seem to be buying their own boots and wearing them.  Who wants to walk around in 5-6 lbs of steel toe boots?



Navy divers. I am qualified to comment because I've seen 'Men of Honor' (ASNF)   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_of_Honor


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## Eye In The Sky (8 Sep 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Navy divers. I am qualified to comment because I've seen 'Men of Honor' (ASNF)   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_of_Honor



But...only on the way down to the bottom.... ;D


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## OceanBonfire (22 Nov 2019)

Close comparison:







https://twitter.com/Army_Comd/status/1197898289741471744

Looks like digitized multicam.


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## daftandbarmy (22 Nov 2019)

OceanBonfire said:
			
		

> Close comparison:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Looks pretty good!

I just hope it won’t inherent the ‘Cadpat Fade’ effect ...


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## STONEY (22 Nov 2019)

A fine selection of different boots sortta  destroys the term uniform.

Cheers


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## Eye In The Sky (22 Nov 2019)

STONEY said:
			
		

> A fine selection of different boots sortta  destroys the term uniform.
> 
> Cheers



Everyone wears the same ankle boots or oxfords on the parade square...not really required in operational dress, though, is it?  Maybe the real need is to reconsider what 'uniform' means for op dress.  I don't care if everyone has the 'same make' of fire protective gloves on;  the important thing is that they are fire protective to the required spec.  If some are green, some brown....doesn't matter.


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## winds_13 (22 Nov 2019)

I agree with daftandbarney and 
Jarnhammer, it just seems to make more sense for us to adopt Multicam along with our closest allies (U.S., U.K., Australia). Creating another unique camo pattern is costly and ensures our continued reliance on sole-source procurement.

IMO, the army does have somewhat of a uniformity problem at the moment, with soldiers in some units wearing whatever color/pattern of equipment they see fit. This makes our force look like a militia, not a first world fighting force. If we added Multicam along with everyone else, it would greatly solve the issue of uniformity in most ways as there is ample aftermarket equipment already  available in the pattern. There is very little available currently in CADPAT TW or AR, there will be even less in this new pattern at the start. 

Further to this, it would make it easier to consider moving to a more American-style procurement system, where we would provide a clothing allowance and soldiers would be empowered to buy their own boots, gloves, load carriage systems, etc. (within guidelines).


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## Navy_Pete (22 Nov 2019)

Really makes no sense for Navy to adopt multicam on a ship; all we really need is fire resistance work clothes, our current uniform works fine for that. If you can see the ship, the multicam is redundant. Making a set of multicam with the fire proofing would be a bit dumb when they make all kinds of stuff that would be fit for purpose for the offshore industry.

If you look up the CADPAT, it's about $300+ for a set, compared to whatever pittance they pay for the DEUs. Worth the savings to keep all the office monkeys wearing something other then combats.


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## MilEME09 (22 Nov 2019)

One thing I have heard from RUMINT is that the move to multicam is actually a potential shift towards a NATO standard camo pattern, to make the supply chain easier for the entire alliance.


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## daftandbarmy (23 Nov 2019)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> One thing I have heard from RUMINT is that the move to multicam is actually a potential shift towards a NATO standard camo pattern, to make the supply chain easier for the entire alliance.



At which point the US will replace 5.56mm with 6.5mm


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## FSTO (23 Nov 2019)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> Really makes no sense for Navy to adopt multicam on a ship; all we really need is fire resistance work clothes, our current uniform works fine for that. If you can see the ship, the multicam is redundant. Making a set of multicam with the fire proofing would be a bit dumb when they make all kinds of stuff that would be fit for purpose for the offshore industry.
> 
> If you look up the CADPAT, it's about $300+ for a set, compared to whatever pittance they pay for the DEUs. Worth the savings to keep all the office monkeys wearing something other then combats.



But....how would CJOC maintain its operational focus if they weren't wearing combats?


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## PPCLI Guy (23 Nov 2019)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> One thing I have heard from RUMINT is that the move to multicam is actually a potential shift towards a NATO standard camo pattern, to make the supply chain easier for the entire alliance.



Where did you hear this?  The NATO water cooler?  The NATO smoking area?  Outside NATO clothing stores?  A dude from the NATO uniform purchasing desk?  Just trying to determine the source and hence value of the rumour.   ;D


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## Infanteer (23 Nov 2019)

winds_13 said:
			
		

> it just seems to make more sense for us to adopt Multicam along with our closest allies (U.S., U.K., Australia). Creating another unique camo pattern is costly and ensures our continued reliance on sole-source procurement.



Except they don't.  The U.S. Army uniform uses Operational Camouflage Pattern, which is derived from Multicam.  The British Armed Forces use Multi-Terrain Pattern, which is derived from Multicam (and which the NZ Army will adopt as well).  The Australians us Australian Multicam Camoflauge Pattern, which is derived from Multicam.

These are all domestic patterns derived from Multicam.  So, it isn't a stretch to see that the CAF would pursue a domestic pattern similar to multicam.



> IMO, the army does have somewhat of a uniformity problem at the moment, with soldiers in some units wearing whatever color/pattern of equipment they see fit. This makes our force look like a militia, not a first world fighting force.



What does "looking like a first world fighting force" mean?  Remember, the original purpose of a uniform in the 1600s was to identify soldiers on a battlefield where fighting was close (within a hundred meters).  Does that requirement for uniformity still exist?  If so, are matching boots part of that requirement?


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## Colin Parkinson (23 Nov 2019)

FSTO said:
			
		

> But....how would CJOC maintain its operational focus if they weren't wearing combats?



I puke a little everytime I see a sailor in blue camo. Can we have sailors actually look like sailors in clothing designed for their environment?


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## daftandbarmy (23 Nov 2019)

Colin P said:
			
		

> I puke a little everytime I see a sailor in blue camo. Can we have sailors actually look like sailors in clothing designed for their environment?



Remember though, we're the military that issued camouflage Airborne-style smocks and 'jump boots' so that everyone could feel like they were 'in the fight'.  :


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## dimsum (23 Nov 2019)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Can we have sailors actually look like sailors in clothing designed for their environment?



I'll put up an unpopular opinion - if it complies with safety requirements (ie. fire/flash safety, etc) then does the "look" of naval operational clothing matter?  Aside from the anchors and the colour scheme of black and blue, our NCDs don't scream "Navy" to anyone and if someone were to be teleported from WWII to now and see them, they wouldn't probably recognize them as sailors right away.  

I can't remember what book it was, but there was a line where in WWII, once they left port and were underway past the public eye, most sailors changed into sweaters, toques...whatever was comfortable.  When they entered port, they wore their "nice clothes" but that wasn't the case at all times.


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## daftandbarmy (23 Nov 2019)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> I'll put up an unpopular opinion - if it complies with safety requirements (ie. fire/flash safety, etc) then does the "look" of naval operational clothing matter?  Aside from the anchors and the colour scheme of black and blue, our NCDs don't scream "Navy" to anyone and if someone were to be teleported from WWII to now and see them, they wouldn't probably recognize them as sailors right away.
> 
> I can't remember what book it was, but there was a line where in WWII, once they left port and were underway past the public eye, most sailors changed into sweaters, toques...whatever was comfortable.  When they entered port, they wore their "nice clothes" but that wasn't the case at all times.



... or shave


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## winds_13 (23 Nov 2019)

Infanteer, I'd argue that "looking like a first world fighting force" means that in our appearance we resemble other first world militaries more than we do a 3rd world army or militia force. This comes down to a certain amount of uniformity and modern equipment. I'm not saying that we have to only wear issued equipment or be 100% the same but our current system seems to be to let soldiers wear anything (gloves, chest rigs, backpacks, toques,  eyewear, etc.) that is brown, tan, green, black, grey, multicam, coyote brown, CADPAT TW, CADPAT AR, etc.. Adopting Multicam, or a very close variant like our allies (they are all near indistinguishable from each other) would mean that aftermarket equipment would still maintain a degree of uniformity. 

I don't think we all need identical boots but perhaps they should all be the same colour. The current boot regulations are vague to the point where one could simply wear construction boots, doc martens, or the issued parade boots and fall witin the guidelines.


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## PPCLI Guy (23 Nov 2019)

winds_13 said:
			
		

> Infanteer, I'd argue that "looking like a first world fighting force" means that in our appearance we resemble other first world militaries more than we do a 3rd world army or militia force.



Huh.  Having served in and with other "first world fighting forces" in garrison, the field, and on operations (as has Infanteer), I do not agree with your assertion.  We look an awful lot like our peers, in many ways - from boots to load carriage systems etc.  I will concede that what you may see on the street as ill-disciplined members walk around with a wide variety of backpacks could lead you to assume that we are a "3rd world army or militia force" but the operational reality is completely at odds with that assessment.

My  :2c:


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## Oldgateboatdriver (23 Nov 2019)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Can we have sailors actually look like sailors in clothing designed for their environment?



Well, that is an interesting question, which leads to a second interesting one: How are sailors supposed to dress to look like sailors?

Put another way: What dress would make your average person (I go beyond only Canadians here) who is NOT a sailor look at someone else and exclaim "That's a sailor!"?

First, let me say that the current DEU does a decent job at that: It has the general cut of a uniform people are used to seeing sailors in, with its Navy blue/black colour, white hat, double breasted styling and ranks - at least for the officers - that look sailor like and could be found on most cruise ship seaman officer. And to me, it works for the actual seamen too, with only a square rig being more sailor like for them if you want to go there.

But what about at sea? Well, there, the "It's a sailor!" moment can only come from wearing something civilians would recognize as such. The bluish (US) and Greyish (Australia) cammo patterns or even brownish (Danish navy - see video below) ones are recognizable to civilians as they watch shows like The Last Ship, or NCIS, or Mighty Ships, or Sea Patrol. The uniform Navy blue colour ones that we are in the process of getting in Canada look close to the ones from many other nations, including the R.N., and so become more and more recognizable to people as being "sailors" uniforms.

But to say that, for shipboard dress, there is a dress we could wear that screams "sailor", is just completely unlikely. As many others have put here, the most important thing is that it fulfills the Navy's requirement for protection of its personnel, and if someone decided that its colour would be Canadian Army cammo pattern, it would not bother me in the slightest.

It's only ashore, in public, that the identity really matters and we have our DEU's for that.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DLgqr5HT8GQo&psig=AOvVaw3P2PSsM8mjkjrsfDUh3EpR&ust=1574638490790000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCLDZyeS_geYCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAQ


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## Blackadder1916 (23 Nov 2019)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> I can't remember what book it was, but there was a line where in WWII, once they left port and were underway past the public eye, most sailors changed into sweaters, toques...whatever was comfortable.  When they entered port, they wore their "nice clothes" but that wasn't the case at all times.



RCN operational dress, 1941 variety



> Gerald Moore, a sailor in the Royal Canadian Navy, smokes a cigarette whilst sitting on the deck of HMCS NIAGARA an ex-American Town class destroyer, 1941. He is wearing a peaked-hat with tied up ear covers commonly worn by Canadian servicemen.




 THE ROYAL CANADIAN NAVY DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR. © IWM (A 3273) IWM Non Commercial License


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## Cloud Cover (23 Nov 2019)

... Elmer Fudd hat and hunting sweater!


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## FJAG (23 Nov 2019)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Well, that is an interesting question, which leads to a second interesting one: How are sailors supposed to dress to look like sailors?









You asked.

;D


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## FSTO (24 Nov 2019)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Well, that is an interesting question, which leads to a second interesting one: How are sailors supposed to dress to look like sailors?
> 
> Put another way: What dress would make your average person (I go beyond only Canadians here) who is NOT a sailor look at someone else and exclaim "That's a sailor!"?
> 
> ...



1st photo Lt John Stubbs shortly after bringing HMCS ASSINIBOINE alongside after its battle with U-210.

2nd photo Vice Admiral Harry DeWolf in the office


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## SeaKingTacco (24 Nov 2019)

I have read the few first person accounts of the RCN in World War 2 seem to exist (Saints, Devils and Ordinary Seamen; 50 North; The Champagne Navy- surely there must be others?).

In all cases, as soon as the ship was off the wall (and sometimes not even that long) uniformity was out the window in favour of whatever clothing would keep them comfortable.


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## Humphrey Bogart (24 Nov 2019)

Just give everyone a set of blue coveralls, job done:






Edit:  But then, submariners, clearance divers, NTOG, boarding party and ships divers would whine because people have somehow correlated wearing a pair of Dickies Coveralls from Marks Work Wearhouse with being special.


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## chrisf (24 Nov 2019)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Just give everyone a set of blue coveralls, job done:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It boggles me that the navy won't embrace coveralls, that's what we do in the civilian sailing world and it's definitely the way to go...

Cheap, easy to carry an assortment of spares on board, available in flame retardant (and you get full body coverage for that purpose), and utilitarian.


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## SeaKingTacco (24 Nov 2019)

Speaking to female sailors that I know, coveralls are not super popular for obvious abolution reasons.

The RCAF has both a two piece and one piece flying suit option that are authorized. Perhaps a solution for the RCN?


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## Halifax Tar (24 Nov 2019)

I don't understand this either.  

I would take coveralls with a fleece and NCD style jacket any day! 

While I do like the look of the new "combat style" NCDs, I think coveralls are still the way to go.


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## Old EO Tech (24 Nov 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Everyone wears the same ankle boots or oxfords on the parade square...not really required in operational dress, though, is it?  Maybe the real need is to reconsider what 'uniform' means for op dress.  I don't care if everyone has the 'same make' of fire protective gloves on;  the important thing is that they are fire protective to the required spec.  If some are green, some brown....doesn't matter.



Well IMHO, the problem here is that we are using operational dress for daily work dress, which is both expensive and creates the "uniformity" problem.  Wearing 3B for us office dwellers works for this issues, but its actually not a very good uniform for anything but looking pretty, pockets are few and things constantly fall out of them, I know several people that have lost keys and had to retrace steps to find them.  There was nothing wrong with the work dress we had in the 90's, it had decent pockets etc, looked sharp and everyone had the same boots :-/  Sure we can improve on it, in fact I'd be ok with a non fire retardant camouflage version of NCD's with black combat boots...  Then we could save our expensive operational dress for operations :-/


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## daftandbarmy (24 Nov 2019)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> I don't understand this either.
> 
> I would take coveralls with a fleece and NCD style jacket any day!
> 
> While I do like the look of the new "combat style" NCDs, I think coveralls are still the way to go.



I know some Armoured Corps folks who would agree with you.


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## FJAG (24 Nov 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I know some Armoured Corps folks who would agree with you.



My favourite field uniform of all time were the AFV crewsuits-both winter and summer. (I wish I still had the winter jacket.)






 :cheers:


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## dimsum (24 Nov 2019)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Speaking to female sailors that I know, coveralls are not super popular for obvious abolution reasons.
> 
> The RCAF has both a two piece and one piece flying suit option that are authorized. Perhaps a solution for the RCN?



Only if they don't have to be tucked in!  

The RAN had gray coveralls for all sailors for a while.  They changed to the current style (not too different than our new style with different colour/pattern) afterwards.


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## Navy_Pete (24 Nov 2019)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Well, that is an interesting question, which leads to a second interesting one: How are sailors supposed to dress to look like sailors?
> 
> Put another way: What dress would make your average person (I go beyond only Canadians here) who is NOT a sailor look at someone else and exclaim "That's a sailor!"?



If giant f** off anchors, NAVY in big letters, and ship ballcaps can't do it while someone is working on a ship, I'm not really sure what else you can do.  I still encounter all kinds of people that have no idea we have a Navy, so I think the obsession with public perception for a work uniform is waste of time.

Personally, the last thing I want is a uniform that blends in with the ocean if I fall overboard, which is why I don't understand the blue camo pattern at all. At that point, I want to be as visible as possible, so am a fan of the bright orange survival suit and all the orange/reflective tape on the inflatable harnesses. The current NCDs/new NCDs are pretty functional and look pretty decent, so why not stop messing around with changing them and try having them in stock?


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## dimsum (24 Nov 2019)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> Personally, the last thing I want is a uniform that blends in with the ocean if I fall overboard, which is why I don't understand the blue camo pattern at all. At that point, I want to be as visible as possible, so am a fan of the bright orange survival suit and all the orange/reflective tape on the inflatable harnesses. The current NCDs/new NCDs are pretty functional and look pretty decent, so why not stop messing around with changing them and try having them in stock?



RAN NCDs have large reflective strips on the upper arms.  I thought that was a great idea for visibility.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (24 Nov 2019)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Well, that is an interesting question, which leads to a second interesting one: How are sailors supposed to dress to look like sailors?
> 
> Put another way: What dress would make your average person (I go beyond only Canadians here) who is NOT a sailor look at someone else and exclaim "That's a sailor!"?
> 
> ...



Well since you asked:


----------



## Eye In The Sky (24 Nov 2019)

FJAG said:
			
		

> My favourite field uniform of all time were the AFV crewsuits-both winter and summer. (I wish I still had the winter jacket.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just had to remember to "up-size" the jacket or it was awful tight.  And...not great in a dismounted OP in real cold!  I also loved the AFV suit/jacket...

My daily dress now...2 piece flight suit.  I prefer the 2 piece for comfort and 'ease'...not just using the facilities, but during missions / Hot Wx ops, I could remove the shirt and not have to walk around with coveralls tight around my waist.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (24 Nov 2019)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Only if they don't have to be tucked in!



Someday...hopefully.  We just need a shirt with a different cut to it so it doesn't look so bad as the current one would.


----------



## FJAG (24 Nov 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Just had to remember to "up-size" the jacket or it was awful tight.  And...not great in a dismounted OP in real cold!



For that I opted for the AFV winter coverall trouser (with the handy poop flap), a parka and mukluks. You could sit in a snow covered OP for hours in those.

 :cheers:


----------



## Furniture (25 Nov 2019)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Only if they don't have to be tucked in!
> 
> The RAN had gray coveralls for all sailors for a while.  They changed to the current style (not too different than our new style with different colour/pattern) afterwards.



I imagine the change from coveralls to a two piece system is rooted in one of the key issues with coveralls. They are either too big, or too small. 

For people like me who wear 73 length tops, but 70 length bottoms we end up with a permanent wedgie, or looking like we stepped out of a 90s rap video with our crotch seam down at our knees.


----------



## chrisf (25 Nov 2019)

Personally I like mine baggy in the crotch, gives me more freedom of movement and my pockets are usually filled with tools anyway...

North American coverall sizes are usually pretty good for most North American males, not always so good for North American females.

That's standard sized coveralls in the civilian world though, which come in surprisingly standard sizes even between different manufacturers, can only assume the forces would find a way to mess it up.

European coverall sizes are a whole different mess when worn on North Americans though, far different length to width ratios.

That being said, if your concern is a difference of a couple of inches in size, it brings you back full circle to the root of the problem with military uniforms... the never ending battle between "appearance" and "functionality".


----------



## quadrapiper (28 Nov 2019)

Not a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Personally I like mine baggy in the crotch, gives me more freedom of movement and my pockets are usually filled with tools anyway...


Until you tear the crotch out scrambling over something.


----------



## quadrapiper (28 Nov 2019)

FJAG said:
			
		

> For that I opted for the AFV winter coverall trouser (with the handy poop flap), a parka and mukluks. You could sit in a snow covered OP for hours in those.
> 
> :cheers:


Were those broadly intended for dry cold, or also good for the damper West Coast snow?


----------



## dimsum (28 Nov 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Someday...hopefully.  We just need a shirt with a different cut to it so it doesn't look so bad as the current one would.



They could have cut the bottoms of the shirts to be straight across instead of being longer in the front and back.  That's pretty much the only difference.


----------



## chrisf (28 Nov 2019)

quadrapiper said:
			
		

> Until you tear the crotch out scrambling over something.



It happens, I work in a industrial environment, on a ship, and realistically, a pair of coveralls lasts me 6-8 weeks. 

Sometimes they last me longer but usually for me, the pockets are getting pretty shredded after 8 weeks regardless.

That's flame retardant coveralls, they're usually $120, the nicer ones are $150-200 "off the shelf"

Anyone buying in bulk should be paying less.

Once I rip the crotch out, no big deal, toss them and go to the supply locker to grab another pair.

That's what happens when clothing is reasonably priced and easy to keep in stock.

That's why it boggles me that the navy doesn't embrace them. *shrug*


----------



## Eye In The Sky (28 Nov 2019)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> They could have cut the bottoms of the shirts to be straight across instead of being longer in the front and back.  That's pretty much the only difference.



This solution would require extensive testing over a number of years....you couldn't simply '_modify_' an existing item to the specs the actual users say "would work great!"  ;D


----------



## Navy_Pete (29 Nov 2019)

Not a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Personally I like mine baggy in the crotch, gives me more freedom of movement and my pockets are usually filled with tools anyway...
> 
> North American coverall sizes are usually pretty good for most North American males, not always so good for North American females.
> 
> ...



Big fan of the offshore coveralls. Can't remember if it was something similar to AOPS or the Bonn class, but they had a small change room with a shower in the entrance to the engine room specifically so the techs could get changed in/out of coveralls they wore while doing normal work in the space.  Makes sense to me! Was looking at some recently, and they were about $150-180. Last time I looked, the NCDs were about that for each piece. Maybe not issue them to everyone for normal wear, but would be good for the 20% or so of the crew doing when they are doing some of the greasy maintenance/repairs.


----------



## chrisf (29 Nov 2019)

Are NCDs nomex or treated cotton or a treated/cotton synthetic blend?

Very few in the civillian world still wearing straight nomex any more, I've got a few pieces of cold weather gear in nomex, but that's it.

Treated cotton coveralls are the cheapest, but not usually too durable.

There's other synthetics on the market and synthetic/cotton blends, big fan of these, more comfortable are more durable.

No idea what standard NCDs are tested to, but everything I wear has to be tested HRC2, for arc flash, its a bit of a higher standard than just straight "flame retardant".

The polys in an HRC2 are usually about $180 for a pair, but that's the off the shelf price. Those usually last me an extra month over the treated cotton type.

I'd guess you could get it down to $100 in bulk no problem, and no problem to get in whatever colour you want.


----------



## Furniture (29 Nov 2019)

Not a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Are NCDs nomex or treated cotton or a treated/cotton synthetic blend?
> 
> Very few in the civillian world still wearing straight nomex any more, I've got a few pieces of cold weather gear in nomex, but that's it.
> 
> ...



Your $180 coveralls aren't artisanal works from a company with no prior experience making coveralls, located in Quebec or some other important(Minister's) riding.   

They aren't sold by a haberdashery located in Quebec that specializes in not having sizes people wear in sufficient quantities, ergo we will never have them.


----------



## chrisf (29 Nov 2019)

Furniture said:
			
		

> Your $180 coveralls aren't artisanal works from a company with no prior experience making coveralls, located in Quebec or some other important(Minister's) riding.
> 
> They aren't sold by a haberdashery located in Quebec that specializes in not having sizes people wear in sufficient quantities, ergo we will never have them.



Sarcasm and pork-barrelling aside, there's several Canadian manufacturers making them and other good quality FR clothing.

Suppliers are only going to bid and supply what the customer specs and buys.

Same problem comes up over and over again in Canadian procurement, reinventing the wheel and going with a custom product when proven off-the-shelf solutions exist.


----------



## Halifax Tar (30 Nov 2019)

Low stock of clothing is compound issue to deal with and there are multi factors. 

1) We didn't set up the contract to have provide the correct amount of clothing available at all times; and

2) We didn't/don't set up a performance based contract whereby the vendor gets incentives to timely deliveries and keeping stock on hand; and 

3) We are too quick to scrap clothing and equipment that still has life left in it; Go check out your local Army surplus for validation; and

4) We have bought into the "just on time" logistics/delivery method relying heavily on vendor warehousing and supply/delivery, which in my opinion is counter to what we require in military logistics.  I need mass amounts stores to sit on shelves and wait to be used quickly, rather than empty shelves and hopeful supply by contract after the need arises.


----------



## Stoker (30 Nov 2019)

Coveralls all the way as it makes sense in many ways as mentioned here. Over the my past 30 years coveralls have come up, time and time again on the various dress committees. These committees are staffed by a lot of senior dinosaurs people who see coveralls as somehow lazy and unsanitary when going to the heads. As the final trial is currently going on for the new NCD's, it will never happen.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (30 Nov 2019)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> 3) We are too quick to scrap clothing and equipment that still has life left in it; Go check out your local Army surplus for validation; and



I completely concur.  Sadly, this is our approach now:



			
				Not a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Once I rip the crotch out, no big deal, toss them and go to the supply locker to grab another pair.



We used to issue sewing kits - we also issued SNCOs who would jack you up for ill-repaired clothing, and ensure kit was truly worn out / irreparable before it went to clothing stores for exchange.  It should not be lost on anyone that "no big deal, toss them and go to the supply locker" is likely a contributing factor to shortages of kit.

"One man one kit" does not mean that every person always has brand new kit.  It means that every person is responsible for the care, cleaning, and repair of their kit.  That shows true pride.

Old timer rant ends.


----------



## Halifax Tar (30 Nov 2019)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> I completely concur.  Sadly, this is our approach now:
> 
> We used to issue sewing kits - we also issued SNCOs who would jack you up for ill-repaired clothing, and ensure kit was truly worn out / irreparable before it went to clothing stores for exchange.  It should not be lost on anyone that "no big deal, toss them and go to the supply locker" is likely a contributing factor to shortages of kit.
> 
> ...



You arent wrong at all.  Alternately why not exchange and have the torn pair repaired by the base tailor and put back into the system ?  Just another idea.


----------



## daftandbarmy (30 Nov 2019)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> I completely concur.  Sadly, this is our approach now:
> 
> We used to issue sewing kits - we also issued SNCOs who would jack you up for ill-repaired clothing, and ensure kit was truly worn out / irreparable before it went to clothing stores for exchange.  It should not be lost on anyone that "no big deal, toss them and go to the supply locker" is likely a contributing factor to shortages of kit.
> 
> ...



We also issue huge amounts of kit to people like me that never gets used and is still in pristine condition, who are office bound, that would better be used by a 19 year old door kicker somewhere down range, just because I'm R23A.


----------



## chrisf (30 Nov 2019)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> It should not be lost on anyone that "no big deal, toss them and go to the supply locker" is likely a contributing factor to shortages of kit.



Maybe, but I work in the private world, no longer a military member...

I promise, if there's a way to save money, they've considered it, so its cheaper and more effective to replace than to repair, and we don't suffer from shortages...

Specifically, that's in reference to fire retardant clothing... which should *not* be repaired by anyone unqualified to do so, and holes/damage rendering it useless as PPE.

NCDs also being flame retardant, an important requirement of any modern naval uniforms...  important lesson learned from  HMS Sheffield sinking 

Anyway, just my thoughts on coveralls.

Though speaking of flame retardant and repairs, would be interesting what is/isn't approved for repairs should the army ever get with the modern world and issue flame retardant combats...


----------



## Halifax Tar (30 Nov 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> We also issue huge amounts of kit to people like me that never gets used and is still in pristine condition, who are office bound, that would better be used by a 19 year old door kicker somewhere down range, just because I'm R23A.



Solid point as well.


----------



## daftandbarmy (30 Nov 2019)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Solid point as well.



But, sadly as I can do, dragging this thread off track.

I like the cam pattern so far... we should call it CULTICAM or something like that  

Carry on!


----------



## Good2Golf (30 Nov 2019)

Not a Sig Op said:
			
		

> ...Specifically, that's in reference to fire retardant clothing... which should *not* be repaired by anyone unqualified to do so, and holes/damage rendering it useless as PPE.



A very important point, NSO.

I asked a base tailor if they had FR thread to repair a seam on a flying suit. They said they did not, so I exchanged my suit for a replacement item in the short-term and spoke with Svc Bn CO and RQ to suggest that FR thread could allow the CAF to make better use of a rather short-supply item. They conferred with the LCMM and FR thread was procured and distributed to base/wing tailors in need.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (30 Nov 2019)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> A very important point, NSO.
> 
> I asked a base tailor if they had FR thread to repair a seam on a flying suit. They said they did not, so I exchanged my suit for a replacement item in the short-term and spoke with Svc Bn CO and RQ to suggest that FR thread could allow the CAF to make better use of a rather short-supply item. They conferred with the LCMM and FR thread was procured and distributed to base/wing tailors in need.



Thanks for the tip! I have several (otherwise serviceable, except for some dye fading issues) flight suits unravelling at the seams. I have needle and threaded my own minor repairs (thank-you, Recruit Term @ RRMC), but the services of a quailfied seamstress could definitely extend their lives a few more seasons!


----------



## Eye In The Sky (30 Nov 2019)

We've had a shortage of flying suits for...well, seems like a long time now.  I had a few teeth on the zipper of my shirt go AWOL recently, rendering the zipper U/S.  I went to Supply and said the shirt is perfectly fine, I just need the zipper fixed/replaced.

Nope; it went in the bin and I was issued a new one.   :dunno:


----------



## FJAG (30 Nov 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> We've had a shortage of flying suits for...well, seems like a long time now.  I had a few teeth on the zipper of my shirt go AWOL recently, rendering the zipper U/S.  I went to Supply and said the shirt is perfectly fine, I just need the zipper fixed/replaced.
> 
> Nope; it went in the bin and I was issued a new one.   :dunno:



I would have said that you could always have taken the flight suit to a tailor to be repaired but that is probably against some regulation because it's a specialty melt resistant zipper unavailable outside of the system. 

(As an aside, and no joke, many many years ago I did a board of inquiry on the destruction by a fire of a trailer belonging to our sigs troop. Everything (including a number of PRC 25 and 524 sets) was destroyed to ashes or slag by the intense fire (fueled by several Jerry cans of gas and naphtha in the trailer) except for a bunch of zippers from various items of gear. The zippers survived the fire intact and serviceable.)

Seriously though, like much equipment today, it's much cheaper in the long run to replace many items rather than stocking thousands of repair parts and the personnel and facilities to repair them.

 :cheers:


----------



## Jarnhamar (30 Nov 2019)

As far as I can tell different countries adopted different versions of Multicam, which is owned and trade marked by Crye Precision, in order to avoid paying Crye Precision royalties or whatever. The multicam patterns are just different enough to not violate the trademark.


As for us, the percent of Canadian Forces member who are going to actually benefit from camouflage uniforms is pretty small. Snipers, Recce teams, 100%.  Infantry, especially those operating out of giant green humming LAVs, carrying black rifles and tan backpacks, maybe a bit less. Armor and artty (minus JTAC or FOO/FAC) even less.
Clerks, Supply Techs, Posties etc..   Not at all.

Our uniforms are 99% political.


----------



## Spencer100 (1 Dec 2019)

I don't get this problem.  Here is fact for the group. And the world has DOUBLED textile production and use since 2001. Clothes are cheaper now than in any time in human history.  I supply clothing to over one thousand employees with no problem.  This whole thing is an administrative issue in the dept that is all.  I would bet uniforms are cheaper now (accounting of inflation) then ever.  Not including special uniforms with IR, fire retardant, etc.


----------



## Navy_Pete (1 Dec 2019)

Spencer100 said:
			
		

> I don't get this problem.  Here is fact for the group. And the world has DOUBLED textile production and use since 2001. Clothes are cheaper now than in any time in human history.  I supply clothing to over one thousand employees with no problem.  This whole thing is an administrative issue in the dept that is all.  I would bet uniforms are cheaper now (accounting of inflation) then ever.  Not including special uniforms with IR, fire retardant, etc.



Because less expensive means the budget for the same number of units gets smaller, not that they order enough to fit the actual people.  In theory, they have everyone's measurement on file for the DEUs, so someone should be able to poll the system and figure out exactly how many people of any trade (and rank) are in a particular size range, and do something like make sure there are enough of the common sizes.  Or tailor them to the human form; my NCD shirt went from a 48 inch shoulder basically straight down to the same sized waist. Huge pain in the ass to have an extra 14" of fabric along the waist, and the tails on the front and back where like a good winter coat. Inevitably ended up looking like a muffin top with suggestions of a diaper after a bit of walking around. The DEUs aren't much better, but at least I can have them tailored. There is a crazy amount of fabric to remove though, seems like a waste.

And for the DEUs, I recently had to order a new tunic as the one I got in basic no longer fit (at the chest and shoulders, to throw off navy stereotypes), and the new one is noticeably much lower quality in comparison to the 15 year old one.  The threadcount of the cotton dropped quite a bit and a lot more polyester in it, so it just looks cheap.  So while quantity of fabric has doubled, guessing the general quantity has plummeted.

In general there are a huge amount of steps with a lunatic number of fingers in the pie internally, plus all the shenanigans in our overly complex procurement system.  There are all kinds of committees involved in how it looks, plus the various actual standards that are usually there for operational reasons (or at least were when put in place 70 years ago).  I think that some rationalization and prioritization is called for, and they should probably spend more time sorting out critical things like retention then worrying about how many pieces of flair we can fit on new uniform mk 8,210.5. Understand that these are different organizations, but makes we side eye snr leadership pretty hard when they get so excited about some clothes while ignoring that they are driving the fleet into the ground.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (1 Dec 2019)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> Because less expensive means the budget for the same number of units gets smaller, not that they order enough to fit the actual people.  In theory, they have everyone's measurement on file for the DEUs, so someone should be able to poll the system and figure out exactly how many people of any trade (and rank) are in a particular size range, and do something like make sure there are enough of the common sizes.  Or tailor them to the human form; my NCD shirt went from a 48 inch shoulder basically straight down to the same sized waist. Huge pain in the *** to have an extra 14" of fabric along the waist, and the tails on the front and back where like a good winter coat. Inevitably ended up looking like a muffin top with suggestions of a diaper after a bit of walking around. The DEUs aren't much better, but at least I can have them tailored. There is a crazy amount of fabric to remove though, seems like a waste.
> 
> And for the DEUs, I recently had to order a new tunic as the one I got in basic no longer fit (at the chest and shoulders, to throw off navy stereotypes), and the new one is noticeably much lower quality in comparison to the 15 year old one.  The threadcount of the cotton dropped quite a bit and a lot more polyester in it, so it just looks cheap.  So while quantity of fabric has doubled, guessing the general quantity has plummeted.
> 
> In general there are a huge amount of steps with a lunatic number of fingers in the pie internally, plus all the shenanigans in our overly complex procurement system.  There are all kinds of committees involved in how it looks, plus the various actual standards that are usually there for operational reasons (or at least were when put in place 70 years ago).  I think that some rationalization and prioritization is called for, and they should probably spend more time sorting out critical things like retention then worrying about how many pieces of flair we can fit on new uniform mk 8,210.5. Understand that these are different organizations, but makes we side eye snr leadership pretty hard when they get so excited about some clothes while ignoring that they are driving the fleet into the ground.



Speaking of thread count, the new NCD T-Shirts are terrible.  They used to be 100% Cotton, now they have this cheap polyester feel and they don't fit well at all.  I ordered a large and it fits like a dress around my mid section.


----------



## dimsum (1 Dec 2019)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Speaking of thread count, the new NCD T-Shirts are terrible.  They used to be 100% Cotton, now they have this cheap polyester feel and they don't fit well at all.  I ordered a large and it fits like a dress around my mid section.



Aren't they literally just black t-shirts that you can buy at Walmart or something?  How does one manage to screw that up?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (1 Dec 2019)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Aren't they literally just black t-shirts that you can buy at Walmart or something?  How does one manage to screw that up?



I have no idea.  You can feel a clear difference between the old and new ones. I 100% guarantee these shirts won't last as long as the old shirts either.  I have sets of green cotton under shirts from 2005 when I first joined that are still in perfectly good condition, meanwhile one of the "new" black ones I own already has a hole in the arm pit.  :rofl:


----------



## dapaterson (1 Dec 2019)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Aren't they literally just black t-shirts that you can buy at Walmart or something?  How does one manage to screw that up?



Practice.


----------



## daftandbarmy (1 Dec 2019)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Speaking of thread count, the new NCD T-Shirts are terrible.  They used to be 100% Cotton, now they have this cheap polyester feel and they don't fit well at all.  I ordered a large and it fits like a dress around my mid section.



Isn't that polyester stuff a bad idea on ships where everything turns to flame once you get hit?


----------



## Navy_Pete (1 Dec 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Isn't that polyester stuff a bad idea on ships where everything turns to flame once you get hit?



What a little molten t-shirt material searing your skin between friends?

Stuff on the top layer (like badges etc) isn't a great idea, but still has to go through the clothes, but there is a good reason that all your next to skin stuff is supposed to be cotton, wool or some other natural material that won't melt and char. It gets into the burns and is apparently a huge pain to clean out properly so you don't get infections. In the off chance I'm somewhere hot enough for my t shirt to melt, I'd rather have 2nd degree burns then die.

When they test the clothes they dress a mannequin in the middle of four propane flamethrower type things and hit it with something like a burst. The old ass, baggy NCDs performed pretty good (partly because of all the air pockets due to poor fit), and having a tshirt on made an absolutely massive difference in the extent of burns on the entire torso.

Here's a link to the University of Alberta testing, which includes some video. Does a great job of explaining the test protocol and procedures. For the NCDs, they did a variety, with the blue shirts, jacket on/off, and with/without flash gear. They also highlight that just complying with a standard isn't necessarily good, as you can pass with up to 49% burns, where a more heavyweight (and thus more expensive) could be below 10%.

https://www.westex.com/blog/a-first-hand-perspective-of-flash-fire-testing/


----------



## daftandbarmy (1 Dec 2019)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> What a little molten t-shirt material searing your skin between friends?
> 
> Stuff on the top layer (like badges etc) isn't a great idea, but still has to go through the clothes, but there is a good reason that all your next to skin stuff is supposed to be cotton, wool or some other natural material that won't melt and char. It gets into the burns and is apparently a huge pain to clean out properly so you don't get infections. In the off chance I'm somewhere hot enough for my t shirt to melt, I'd rather have 2nd degree burns then die.
> 
> ...



A friend of mine was torched by a VISA (vehicle incendiary South Armagh). This was well before there was a credit card by that name, of course.

The VISA was about 20 gallons of gas launched from a car trunk, like a flamethrower, with a kicker charge of a couple of pounds of Libyan provided Semtex plastic explosive. He had burns over 70% of his body but lived, because he’s just that tough. His face looks like ‘Ben Grimm’, and his fingers fused together so that they had to be surgically separated.

The wounds were made even worse by the synthetic ‘denim’ trousers he was wearing, including a plastic zipper that melted over the obvious appendage. We usually wore the issued combat trousers, less comfortable but cotton, with a cotton lining, but he chose to wear the denims that day for some reason. We used to wear them in the base but not in patrol.

He lived, but I’m pretty sure he wished he hadn’t. He continued to serve in the Army, and is someone I always think about when the term ‘role model’ is blithely thrown around by others.

The fact that we make our Infantry, and others, wear synthetic clothing into battle, merely for the sake of comfort, strikes me as irresponsible.


----------



## dimsum (1 Dec 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> A friend of mine was torched by a VISA (vehicle incendiary South Armagh). This was well before there was a credit card by that name, of course.
> 
> The VISA was about 20 gallons of gas launched from a car trunk, like a flamethrower, with a kicker charge of a couple of pounds of Libyan provided Semtex plastic explosive. He had burns over 70% of his body but lived, because he’s just that tough. His face looks like ‘Ben Grimm’, and his fingers fused together so that they had to be surgically separated.
> 
> ...



Hmm...what's CADPAT and the zippers made of?


----------



## chrisf (2 Dec 2019)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Hmm...what's CADPAT and the zippers made of?



Which item? 

The combat uniform itself isn't fire retardant... but its probably less "melty" and flammable than the issued underwear, long johns, fleece, goretex, polyester blend t-shirts and every other item issued...

Not really anything you'd ever want to be exposed to a fire while wearing...

Maybe that's why there was so much upset over wearing fleece toques rather the issued wool?

Side note for anyone who didn't know, "fire retardant" doesn't mean "fire proof" or even "fire resistant", usually it just means the material is self-extinguishing, and it usually means it doesn't melt or drip.


----------



## OceanBonfire (27 May 2020)

> https://twitter.com/CFCombatCamFC/status/1265623796641398784
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/CFCombatCameraFC/posts/4149820251725247
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/cfcombatcamera/with/49938962711/


----------



## MilEME09 (27 May 2020)

I didnt like the new pattern at first, but after seeing it actually used  i like it a lot more. Now can they just replace the tac vest please.


----------



## dangerboy (27 May 2020)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> I didnt like the new pattern at first, but after seeing it actually used  i like it a lot more. Now can they just replace the tac vest please.



Part of SOCEM is replacing the Tac-Vest, Fragmentation vest, Small pack, and rucksack. The are telling bidders it is to be a system so hopefully the components will work together better than the current system.


----------



## dimsum (27 May 2020)

dangerboy said:
			
		

> Part of SOCEM is replacing the Tac-Vest, Fragmentation vest, Small pack, and rucksack. The are telling bidders it is to be a system so hopefully the components will work together better than the current system.



Plate carrier?


----------



## daftandbarmy (27 May 2020)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Plate carrier?



Not bad, for a Blue Job


----------



## OldSolduer (27 May 2020)

dangerboy said:
			
		

> Part of SOCEM is replacing the Tac-Vest, Fragmentation vest, Small pack, and rucksack. The are telling bidders it is to be a system so hopefully the components will work together better than the current system.



Each soldier needs to be able to modify their kit according to their body type, their role (Number 1 rifleman or Number 2 C9 as examples) and the mission. 
Let's hope some big brains have the forethought to get rid of the "this must be carried by all in this location" thinking.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (27 May 2020)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Plate carrier?



In my day these were the only plates we carried and we didn't have special pouches for them.   [


----------



## 211RadOp (27 May 2020)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> In my day these were the only plates we carried and we didn't have special pouches for them.   [



Yes we did. The butt back on the webbing.


----------



## OldSolduer (27 May 2020)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> In my day these were the only plates we carried and we didn't have special pouches for them.   [



Actually in 1997 in Bosnia, Velika Kladusa,in the support contingent the mat techs made plate bags for exactly that type of plate. 

No f&cking kidding.


----------



## Haggis (27 May 2020)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> In my day these were the only plates we carried and we didn't have special pouches for them.   [



I ditched my Melmac in my rucksack and carried a Frisbee in my butt pack.  Better at holding gravy and watery veggies, wouldn't snap in half if I fell on it and I was a sports day waiting for a place to happen.


----------



## MilEME09 (27 May 2020)

dangerboy said:
			
		

> Part of SOCEM is replacing the Tac-Vest, Fragmentation vest, Small pack, and rucksack. The are telling bidders it is to be a system so hopefully the components will work together better than the current system.



As long as the infantry get some sway on it, I am sure it will, none of our infantry battalions use the issued vest to my understanding. Buddy of mine got posted to 2 VP (a vtech) and was promptly told no to his issued vest, brought out back to a seacan filled with approved rigs and told to pick one he likes.


----------



## Jarnhamar (27 May 2020)

Haggis said:
			
		

> I ditched my Melmac in my rucksack and carried a Frisbee in my butt pack.  Better at holding gravy and watery veggies, wouldn't snap in half if I fell on it and I was a sports day waiting for a place to happen.



Plus if you're ever captured you can commit seppeku with the Frisbee 

http://www.realultimatepower.net/ninja/seppuku.htm

 ;D


----------



## daftandbarmy (27 May 2020)

Haggis said:
			
		

> I ditched my Melmac in my rucksack and carried a Frisbee in my butt pack.  Better at holding gravy and watery veggies, wouldn't snap in half if I fell on it and I was a sports day waiting for a place to happen.



I saw one of my guys do the same thing and thought 'The Canadian Army is going to be alright.'


----------



## IRepoCans (27 May 2020)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Each soldier needs to be able to modify their kit according to their body type, their role (Number 1 rifleman or Number 2 C9 as examples) and the mission.
> Let's hope some big brains have the forethought to get rid of the "this must be carried by all in this location" thinking.



This quote appears in the 2002 edition of FM 3-97.61 Military Mountaineering and the 2012 TC 3-97.61 Military Mountaineering:

_"Leaders must understand that each individual has a different metabolism and, therefore, cools down and heats up differently, which requires Soldiers to dress-up and dress-down at different intervals. Provided all tactical concerns are met, the concept of uniformity is outdated and only reduces the unit’s ability to fight and function at an optimum level."_

Wonder who allowed for that nugget of wisdom to be put into a publication.


----------



## daftandbarmy (27 May 2020)

Ó Donnghaile said:
			
		

> This quote appears in the 2002 edition of FM 3-97.61 Military Mountaineering and the 2012 TC 3-97.61 Military Mountaineering:
> 
> _"Leaders must understand that each individual has a different metabolism and, therefore, cools down and heats up differently, which requires Soldiers to dress-up and dress-down at different intervals. Provided all tactical concerns are met, the concept of uniformity is outdated and only reduces the unit’s ability to fight and function at an optimum level."_
> 
> Wonder who allowed for that nugget of wisdom to be put into a publication.



Someone who has never almost killed one of his own in a Blue on Blue? 

Just sayin'


----------



## Blackadder1916 (27 May 2020)

Ó Donnghaile said:
			
		

> This quote appears in the 2002 edition of FM 3-97.61 Military Mountaineering and the 2012 TC 3-97.61 Military Mountaineering:
> 
> _"Leaders must understand that each individual has a different metabolism and, therefore, cools down and heats up differently, which requires Soldiers to dress-up and dress-down at different intervals. Provided all tactical concerns are met, the concept of uniformity is outdated and only reduces the unit’s ability to fight and function at an optimum level."_
> 
> Wonder who allowed for that nugget of wisdom to be put into a publication.



And the following sentences are:  "The extreme cold weather clothing system (ECWCS) is specifically designed to allow for rapid moisture transfer and optimum heat retention while protecting the individual from the elements. Every leader is responsible for *ensuring that the ECWCS is worn in accordance with the manufacturers’ recommendations*." 

It's not suggesting that soldiers get to choose their own kit and wear it as they see fit, but that they wear the issued kit as it is designed to be worn.  The dress-up/dress-down concept to meet activity level is nothing new, if I recall correctly, we taught the same thing on winter warfare courses.


----------



## Haggis (27 May 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Plus if you're ever captured you can commit seppeku with the Frisbee



Step away from the Internet.  Turn around, face away from me, keep your hands where I can see them.


----------



## Maxman1 (15 Apr 2021)

chrisf said:


> The combat uniform itself isn't fire retardant... but its probably less "melty" and flammable than the issued underwear, long johns, fleece, goretex, polyester blend t-shirts and every other item issued...



I found that out the hard way on my BWW. In the improvised shelter, while I was getting dressed for my shift watching the fire - because the guy before me decided to dump ALL of our goddamn firewood on at once, right before his shift ended - a giant ember landed on my arm after I put on the thermal top and melted right through.


----------



## Maxman1 (15 Apr 2021)

MilEME09 said:


> I didnt like the new pattern at first, but after seeing it actually used  i like it a lot more. Now can they just replace the tac vest please.



At least it looks better than what the Americans have to wear.


----------



## Good2Golf (15 Apr 2021)

Maxman1 said:


> I found that out the hard way on my BWW. In the improvised shelter, while I was getting dressed for my shift watching the fire - because the guy before me decided to dump ALL of our goddamn firewood on at once, right before his shift ended - a giant ember landed on my arm after I put on the thermal top and melted right through.


One would think economies of scale would come into play, and the Army consider working with the RCAF for fleece...fire retardant and static dissipating.  Yes it would cost more to procure, but then supply chain economies would be improved...assuming, of course, that Army was okay with the ‘looks the same’ pattern of the RCAF fleece, and not do something stupid like require a different pattern, so that only the rank slip-on was different. At least Armour and mech inf should be considered for FR fleece.


----------



## dapaterson (15 Apr 2021)

If you're issuing it to the Armour folks, you have to test on how easy it is to wash out gravy stains.


----------



## Kilted (15 Apr 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> One would think economies of scale would come into play, and the Army consider working with the RCAF for fleece...fire retardant and static dissipating.  Yes it would cost more to procure, but then supply chain economies would be improved...assuming, of course, that Army was okay with the ‘looks the same’ pattern of the RCAF fleece, and not do something stupid like require a different pattern, so that only the rank slip-on was different. At least Armour and mech inf should be considered for FR fleece.


I would think it they are ok having the same combat uniform, they would be ok with that. I always tell one of my friends in the air force to get his own uniform.


----------



## dimsum (15 Apr 2021)

Maxman1 said:


> At least it looks better than what the Americans have to wear.


The American...Army?  Navy?  Marines?  Air Force?  Space Force?  Coast Guard?



Kilted said:


> I would think it they are ok having the same combat uniform, they would be ok with that. I always tell one of my friends in the air force to get his own uniform.


Is the intent for the RCAF to switch to the new pattern as well once it's rolled out?


----------



## daftandbarmy (15 Apr 2021)

dimsum said:


> The American...Army?  Navy?  Marines?  Air Force?  Space Force?  Coast Guard?
> 
> 
> Is the intent for the RCAF to switch to the new pattern as well once it's rolled out?



They should just stay with plain OD green for the flight suit. 

Like all 70s fashions, if you wait long enough....


----------



## dimsum (15 Apr 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> They should just stay with plain OD green for the flight suit.


Is this when I say that not all RCAF folks are aircrew?


----------



## Haggis (15 Apr 2021)

dimsum said:


> Is this when I say that not all RCAF folks are aircrew?


And not all aircrew are RCAF folks.


----------



## daftandbarmy (15 Apr 2021)

Haggis said:


> And not all aircrew are RCAF folks.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (15 Apr 2021)

Haggis said:


> And not all aircrew are RCAF folks.





daftandbarmy said:


>


That looks like baggage. 😁
Not aircrew.


----------



## daftandbarmy (15 Apr 2021)

Fishbone Jones said:


> That looks like baggage. 😁
> Not aircrew.



In more ways than one


----------



## Maxman1 (15 Apr 2021)

dimsum said:


> The American...Army?  Navy?  Marines?  Air Force?  Space Force?  Coast Guard?



Army. I've always thought the ACU looks like trash no matter the camo pattern.


----------



## daftandbarmy (21 Nov 2021)

I'm guessing the CAF CWWB wasn't included in this trial due to it being too dangerous for those doing the testing 

5 out of 6 winter boots fail slip test on ice, Marketplace finds​
Winter boots equipped with fibre-embedded soles may be the answer to fewer slips and falls on ice this winter, a CBC _Marketplace_ investigation has found. 

_Marketplace_ looked at popular brands for sale in Canada — Merrell, Sorel, Kamik, Ugg, Timberland and WindRiver — to see how some of these companies' winter boots would fare on a wet, icy surface. 

The investigation of the boots selected by _Marketplace_ found that the WindRiver Backwoods Waterproof Hyper Dri 3 hiking boots, which include embedded fibres in the sole for extra traction, had the best grip on a wet, icy surface compared to the boots with outsoles made of different materials. WindRiver is a brand owned by Mark's (formerly Mark's Work Wearhouse).

_Marketplace _went to the KITE Research Institute in Toronto, which is part of the University Health Network's Rehabilitation Institute, where biomedical engineers conducted a footwear slip test assessing the Maximum Achievable Angle (MAA) for each pair of boots. An MMA is the highest degree of elevation at which a boot is able to be worn before slipping on the ice.

_Marketplace_ chose boot models that were warm and good for walking, and based on recommendations from customer service staff from each company.  




			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/marketplace-boot-test-1.6252613


----------



## Bluebulldog (22 Nov 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> I'm guessing the CAF CWWB wasn't included in this trial due to it being too dangerous for those doing the testing
> 
> 5 out of 6 winter boots fail slip test on ice, Marketplace finds​
> Winter boots equipped with fibre-embedded soles may be the answer to fewer slips and falls on ice this winter, a CBC _Marketplace_ investigation has found.
> ...


I remember being issued them before the recall....

Slightly less glidy on ice than a pair of hockey skates....


----------



## LittleBlackDevil (22 Nov 2021)

Maxman1 said:


> At least it looks better than what the Americans have to wear.



What's wrong with MultiCam?


----------



## Maxman1 (22 Nov 2021)

LittleBlackDevil said:


> What's wrong with MultiCam?



The pattern looks like puke and the cut and design of the uniforms are junk.

This video is mostly about the awful camouflage pattern of what multi-cam replaced, but it also explains the problems with the uniform itself, as they simply reprinted it in multi-cam (just like how when we switched to CADPAT, we simply started making the OD combats in CADPAT).


----------



## KevinB (23 Nov 2021)

Maxman1 said:


> The pattern looks like puke and the cut and design of the uniforms are junk.
> 
> This video is mostly about the awful camouflage pattern of what multi-cam replaced, but it also explains the problems with the uniform itself, as they simply reprinted it in multi-cam (just like how when we switched to CADPAT, we simply started making the OD combats in CADPAT).


There are several different uniforms done in OCP (OCP is NOT Multicam, long story there but let's just try to accept hat for now).








						Operational Camouflage Pattern Army Combat Uniforms available July 1
					

The Army announced today the release of the Operational Camouflage Pattern in Soldier uniforms. The Operational Camouflage Pattern will be available for purchase in select Military Clothing Sales Stores beginning, July 1.




					www.army.mil
				




The standard uniform is absolute junk, you ned to view that like a garrison dress - but there are ones designed to be worn with armor, and operational use - think the early Crye Precision gear.


			PEO Soldier | Project Manager Soldier Survivability Portfolio


----------



## Eye In The Sky (23 Nov 2021)

Haggis said:


> And not all aircrew are RCAF folks.


 Old post but, actually they are all RCAF.


----------



## SupersonicMax (23 Nov 2021)

Eye In The Sky said:


> Old post but, actually they are all RCAF.


Technically, SOFCOM has aircrew.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (23 Nov 2021)

Hmmmm.  Never thought of that actually, even though our trade fed a few bodies over…


----------



## Eye In The Sky (23 Nov 2021)

Maxman1 said:


> The pattern looks like puke and the cut and design of the uniforms are junk.
> 
> This video is mostly about the awful camouflage pattern of what multi-cam replaced, but it also explains the problems with the uniform itself, as they simply reprinted it in multi-cam (just like how when we switched to CADPAT, we simply started making the OD combats in CADPAT).



The rant made me chuckle!


----------



## markppcli (26 Nov 2021)

Eye In The Sky said:


> Old post but, actually they are all RCAF.


Door Gunners ?


----------



## Ostrozac (26 Nov 2021)

markppcli said:


> Door Gunners ?


Door gunners are Flight Crew, not Aircrew. The Army DEU Aircrew are certain Loadmasters — Loadmasters being a mix of Army and Air Force DEU.

And in theory certain Astronauts, I suppose. Marc Garneau was a naval officer when he first went on the space shuttle.


----------



## Halifax Tar (26 Nov 2021)

Ostrozac said:


> Door gunners are Flight Crew, not Aircrew. The Army DEU Aircrew are certain Loadmasters — Loadmasters being a mix of Army and Air Force DEU.
> 
> And in theory certain Astronauts, I suppose. Marc Garneau was a naval officer when he first went on the space shuttle.



I'm pretty sure all TFC Techs are RCAF now.  Might be a few stragglers but the went RCAF DEU only I'm lead to believe by a WO Loadie.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (26 Nov 2021)

Ostrozac said:


> Door gunners are Flight Crew, not Aircrew. The Army DEU Aircrew are certain Loadmasters — Loadmasters being a mix of Army and Air Force DEU.
> 
> And in theory certain Astronauts, I suppose. Marc Garneau was a naval officer when he first went on the space shuttle.


Loadmasters are flight crew not aircrew.  It’s a specialist flight crew qualification for Traf Tech, their MOSID. 

Aircrew = Pilot, ACSO, Flt Engineer, SAR Tech and AES Op.

CFA0 55-10 details:

CFAO 55-10 -- THE CREATION AND AWARDING OF CANADIAN FORCES FLYING AND SPECIALIST SKILL BADGES

BADGE AWARD -- CRITERIA

1. A Canadian Forces (CF) flying or specialist skill badge shall be authorized only for employment that requires CF members to:
a.  fly in an aircrew/flight crew position and perform duties associated with the badge (this would include parachuting);


FLYING BADGES -- GENERAL
2. A CF aircrew badge may be awarded to a member of the Regular or Reserve Force after successful completion of formal CF training or a CF qualifying course for pilots, navigators, airborne electronic sensor operators, search and rescue technicians, or flight engineers. 


FLIGHT CREW BADGES

10. A member of the CF Regular and Reserve Force is entitled to the award of the basic flight crew badge on the basis of occupation or occupational specialty employment when the member is held on unit strength against an annotated establishment position requiring active and continuous airborne duties as follows:

b.  Occupational Specialities 

2.  Flight Attendant (OSQ Code FY)-- a member of any occupation when employed continuously in the occupation specialty duties of a flight attendant. 
3.  Flight Steward (OSQ Code FX)-- Cook (MOC 861) or Steward (MOC 862) when employed continuously in the occupational specialty duties of a flight steward. 


SPECIALIZED FLIGHT CREW BADGES

16. Members are eligible for specialized flight crew badges in the following categories:

a.  Flight Surgeon Badge
b.  Flight Test Engineer Badge
c.  Loadmaster Badge. 
e.  Aeromedical Evacuation Badge.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (26 Nov 2021)

markppcli said:


> Door Gunners ?



Specialist flight crew, with upswept wing badges.   After AW&C and Loadmaster flight crew were changed to full wing badges, I am not sure why all flying badges weren’t converted to full wing.  🤷‍♂️









						INTRODUCTION OF THE TACTICAL AVIATION DOOR GUNNER BADGE
					

CANFORGEN 001/19 C AIR FORCE 01/19 201621Z DEC 18 INTRODUCTION OF THE TACTICAL AVIATION DOOR GUNNER BADGE  CANFORGEN 001/19 C AIR FORCE 01/19 201621Z DEC 18 INTRODUCTION OF THE TACTICAL AVIATION DOOR GUNNER BADGE  UNCLASSIFIED  REFS: A. DIRECTORATE OF HISTORY AND HERITAGE PRELIMINARY DESIGN -...




					army.ca


----------



## markppcli (7 Dec 2021)




----------



## Pelorus (8 Dec 2021)

I feel like the ">" in ">3 years" is going to be pulling a lot of weight in those headings.


----------



## daftandbarmy (8 Dec 2021)

markppcli said:


> View attachment 67551



I hope they issue a closet to hold all those boots


----------



## MilEME09 (8 Dec 2021)

Big take aways I see there, Operational clothing going online, something many of us have called for for years, New upgrades to the C7/C8 family, new tac vests and sleeping bags


----------



## dangerboy (8 Dec 2021)

MilEME09 said:


> Big take aways I see there, Operational clothing going online, something many of us have called for for years, New upgrades to the C7/C8 family, new tac vests and sleeping bags


New general-purpose sleeping bags have arrived at one of the supply depots already.


----------



## KevinB (8 Dec 2021)

I note a new pistol is not on the personal weapon list.
   All hail the Browning Hi-Power No2 Mk1*'s second century of Service.


----------



## dimsum (8 Dec 2021)

KevinB said:


> I note a new pistol is not on the personal weapon list.
> All hail the Browning Hi-Power No2 Mk1*'s second century of Service.


To match another Browning product? 

Edit: 

Actually it's in there - the C22 Full Frame Pistol for CA (first bullet in the Personal Weapons - Medium Term column).  

My question is why SOCEM is dealing with flying gloves, but not anything else RCAF uniform-related?  Unless those will also fall under OCFC2?


----------



## KevinB (8 Dec 2021)

dimsum said:


> To match another Browning product?
> 
> Edit:
> 
> ...


I guess I need both my reading glasses and coffee before I look at stuff here.

My bad.


----------



## Kilted (8 Dec 2021)

I noticed that ruck sacks aren't on there. I'm guessing that they expect troops to continue to carry duffle bags around in the field.


----------



## dimsum (8 Dec 2021)

Kilted said:


> I noticed that ruck sacks aren't on there. I'm guessing that they expect troops to continue to carry duffle bags around in the field.


RUCKFORGEN!


----------



## daftandbarmy (8 Dec 2021)

dimsum said:


> RUCKFORGEN!



Or just buy shares in CP Gear


----------



## Eye In The Sky (8 Dec 2021)

dimsum said:


> My question is why SOCEM is dealing with flying gloves, but not anything else RCAF uniform-related?  Unless those will also fall under OCFC2?



Maybe because touch-screen requirement is a shared requirement for C Army and RCAF folks?  Touch-screen gloves were discussed during the ALSE symposium earlier in the fall, and that no long term solution was in sight as the gloves lost their 'touch screen ability' quickly and the products are improving quickly.  I would be surprised if touch screen capable is common across RCAF, SOF and Army....there's a chance to get the best product at lowest cost, like the current CADPAT raingear (started RCAF from CEMS project, then Army was interested and voila...CCR, combined CADPAT raingear was produced).

Just a guess...

What is the new load carriage kit like?  Assuming this is a TACVEST replacement...


----------



## daftandbarmy (8 Dec 2021)

Eye In The Sky said:


> Maybe because touch-screen requirement is a shared requirement for C Army and RCAF folks?  Touch-screen gloves were discussed during the ALSE symposium earlier in the fall, and that no long term solution was in sight as the gloves lost their 'touch screen ability' quickly and the products are improving quickly.  I would be surprised if touch screen capable is common across RCAF, SOF and Army....there's a chance to get the best product at lowest cost, like the current CADPAT raingear (started RCAF from CEMS project, then Army was interested and voila...CCR, combined CADPAT raingear was produced).
> 
> Just a guess...
> 
> What is the new load carriage kit like?  Assuming this is a TACVEST replacement...



Not sure but apparently it's going to be 'lighter'. Whatever that means these days 

Shedding the Weight: Project aims to lighten the load with updated soldier clothing and equipment​





						Shedding the Weight - Canada.ca
					

The first layer of protection between Canadian soldiers and a hostile world is operational clothing, and some of that wardrobe needs updating.




					www.canada.ca
				




​


----------



## Eye In The Sky (8 Dec 2021)

Ohhhhh....wardrobe!  I want some


----------



## KevinB (8 Dec 2021)

dimsum said:


> RUCKFORGEN!








						Military Packs | MYSTERY RANCH BACKPACKS
					






					www.mysteryranch.com


----------



## Eye In The Sky (8 Dec 2021)

Whoa, wait wait wait.  Are those already existing, proven pieces of kit?

'Cause that's not how we roll in the Canadian Semi-Armed Forces!!  😁


----------



## RangerRay (8 Dec 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Not sure but apparently it's going to be 'lighter'. Whatever that means these days
> 
> Shedding the Weight: Project aims to lighten the load with updated soldier clothing and equipment​
> 
> ...


Doesn’t that just mean “Now we can overburden the troops with more stuff!  Huzzah!”?


----------



## markppcli (8 Dec 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Not sure but apparently it's going to be 'lighter'. Whatever that means these days
> 
> Shedding the Weight: Project aims to lighten the load with updated soldier clothing and equipment​
> 
> ...


Well the new LAV 6 tablets are touch enabled so it’s probably mutually beneficial


----------



## Retired AF Guy (13 Feb 2022)

Since this thread is about new uniforms I thought I would attach this article from the February issue of _Soldat und Technik _about the four Nordic countries (Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Finland) adopting a common Nordic Combat Uniform which includes winter, summer, jungle and desert versions_. _A link to the original article can be found on the last page and contains photos and video. The original article was translated from German to English using the ViValdi Translation tool, so hopefully no major typos.


----------



## KevinB (13 Feb 2022)

Retired AF Guy said:


> Since this thread is about new uniforms I thought I would attach this article from the February issue of _Soldat und Technik _about the four Nordic countries (Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Finland) adopting a common Nordic Combat Uniform which includes winter, summer, jungle and desert versions_. _A link to the original article can be found on the last page and contains photos and video. The original article was translated from German to English using the ViValdi Translation tool, so hopefully no major typos.


File won't open for me.

There is a thread on Lightfighter that has info about this - with pictures of the uniforms 


			https://www.lightfighter.net/topic/arctic1-s-big-winter-gear-thread?reply=134889926193568862#134889926193568862


----------



## kev994 (13 Feb 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Doesn’t that just mean “Now we can overburden the troops with more stuff!  Huzzah!”?


Yeah, but instead of 200 lbs of heavy crap you’ll be able to carry 200 lbs of light crap.


----------



## Fabius (17 Feb 2022)

Does anyone know what the status is of the new CADPAT? 
Last I was tracking it was a trial run I think with 2 CMBG and the eFP BG.


----------



## markppcli (17 Feb 2022)

3 RCR is wearing it, no idea if / when remit will be more widely adopted.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (17 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> File won't open for me.
> 
> There is a thread on Lightfighter that has info about this - with pictures of the uniforms
> 
> ...


Try this.


----------



## IRepoCans (17 Feb 2022)

CADPAT MT will begin issuing out in 4 Div sometime later this year starting with combats, rain gear and bush caps (which would go to 2CMBG lines first); but Ontario is a weird place and I wouldn't be surprised to see just COs and RSMs with it and us regular folk still in faded combats until next year. PPE and LCE in MT is still being worked out, and TW will still be retained for recruits / non-trade qualified pers.

The DICE program if it was mentioned here, has very little to do with SOCEM and is specific only to the LIB(s?) and therefore light infantry types in the reg force may be seen with entirely different PPE and LCE than anyone else outside of cansof.


----------



## dimsum (17 Feb 2022)

IRepoCans said:


> PPE and LCE in MT is still being worked out


Look Cool Equipment?


----------



## Kat Stevens (17 Feb 2022)

dimsum said:


> Look Cool Equipment?


My money would have gone on Lowest Cost Equipment, but I hope you're right, 'cause if it's cool, it ain't cheap.


----------



## markppcli (18 Feb 2022)

IRepoCans said:


> CADPAT MT will begin issuing out in 4 Div sometime later this year starting with combats, rain gear and bush caps (which would go to 2CMBG lines first); but Ontario is a weird place and I wouldn't be surprised to see just COs and RSMs with it and us regular folk still in faded combats until next year. PPE and LCE in MT is still being worked out, and TW will still be retained for recruits / non-trade qualified pers.
> 
> The DICE program if it was mentioned here, has very little to do with SOCEM and is specific only to the LIB(s?) and therefore light infantry types in the reg force may be seen with entirely different PPE and LCE than anyone else outside of cansof.


I would be very surprised if DICE doesn’t end up equipping most of the infantry Bns. It’s pretty easy to justify since we all do dismounted training and all that.


----------



## daftandbarmy (18 Feb 2022)

dimsum said:


> Look Cool Equipment?



Probably more like 'Last Chance, Eh?'


----------



## IRepoCans (18 Feb 2022)

markppcli said:


> I would be very surprised if DICE doesn’t end up equipping most of the infantry Bns. It’s pretty easy to justify since we all do dismounted training and all that.


To some extent yes, by which if any of the small scale procurements made under DICE get made into larger scale acquisitions under SOCEM. Otherwise, maybe only Recce and snipes within the Mech Bns (albeit they already have their own equipment program).

Really the only different kit under DICE is this: a high cut helmet that can accommodate over-ear electronic hearing protection / communications headsets with a built in shroud for mounting night viewing devices; a plate carrier with a scalable suite of accessories; and lastly, a new rucksack and daysack. Otherwise, Light Inf have the same MT clothing system, sleeping kit and everything else as anyone else under the new deliverables through SOCEM or the other CAF wide equipment acquisitions.


----------



## KevinB (18 Feb 2022)

IRepoCans said:


> Really the only different kit under DICE is this: a high cut helmet that can accommodate over-ear electronic hearing protection / communications headsets with a built in shroud for mounting night viewing devices; a plate carrier with a scalable suite of accessories;


SO what every other ground Army has done 20 years ago...
  Got it.


----------



## IRepoCans (18 Feb 2022)

We're painfully slow and adverse to change.


----------



## daftandbarmy (18 Feb 2022)

IRepoCans said:


> We're painfully slow and adverse to change.



But... but... but we've adopted the Mandarin Collar, haven't we?


----------



## Jarnhamar (18 Feb 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> But... but... but we've adopted the Mandarin Collar, haven't we?


Yea no wearing your collar up like that isn't listed as allowable on the kitlist. Please stick to cam paint in the front left tacvest pocket and field dressing in the right.


----------



## markppcli (18 Feb 2022)

IRepoCans said:


> To some extent yes, by which if any of the small scale procurements made under DICE get made into larger scale acquisitions under SOCEM. Otherwise, maybe only Recce and snipes within the Mech Bns (albeit they already have their own equipment program).
> 
> Really the only different kit under DICE is this: a high cut helmet that can accommodate over-ear electronic hearing protection / communications headsets with a built in shroud for mounting night viewing devices; a plate carrier with a scalable suite of accessories; and lastly, a new rucksack and daysack. Otherwise, Light Inf have the same MT clothing system, sleeping kit and everything else as anyone else under the new deliverables through SOCEM or the other CAF wide equipment acquisitions.


Which should be for all soldiers engaged in close combat, mechanized or light. Rifles and radio work the same. But I digress.


----------



## daftandbarmy (19 Feb 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Yea no wearing your collar up like that isn't listed as allowable on the kitlist. Please stick to cam paint in the front left tacvest pocket and field dressing in the right.


----------



## IRepoCans (19 Feb 2022)

markppcli said:


> Which should be for all soldiers engaged in close combat, mechanized or light. Rifles and radio work the same. But I digress.


I don't disagree, there are some arguments that the dedicated dismounted forces may have some slightly different requirements than than those who aren't; but I'm not airborne enough to understand that line of reasoning.


----------



## markppcli (19 Feb 2022)

I have my doubts frankly, its not like mechanized units aren’t given the same tasks, and aren’t expected to perform them. Sooner we end the fetishism of light infantry the better.


----------



## GR66 (19 Feb 2022)

markppcli said:


> I have my doubts frankly, its not like mechanized units aren’t given the same tasks, and aren’t expected to perform them. Sooner we end the fetishism of light infantry the better.


US Army Armored units were deployed in Afghanistan in a dismounted infantry role.  You lose some flexibility when you cling too tightly to defined "specialist" roles.


----------



## KevinB (19 Feb 2022)

GR66 said:


> US Army Armored units were deployed in Afghanistan in a dismounted infantry role.  You lose some flexibility when you cling too tightly to defined "specialist" roles.


Infantry elements of Armored units where deployed like that - but most Armored and Artillery where used for Convoy work -- I am unaware of any Armored troops used as Dismounted Infantry - outside of Scouts - and even then they retained UpArmored Hummers


----------



## GR66 (19 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> Infantry elements of Armored units where deployed like that - but most Armored and Artillery where used for Convoy work -- I am unaware of any Armored troops used as Dismounted Infantry - outside of Scouts - and even then they retained UpArmored Hummers


I was referencing an episode of The Spear podcast from the Modern Warfare Institute at Westpoint that follows the deployment of an Tank Platoon in a dismounted role at a COB in Afghanistan in 2009.  A very interesting episode of the podcast and an interesting podcast series for those that haven't heard it before.  

In re-listening to the start of the podcast to refresh my memory as it was a while ago that I heard the podcast it appears that the unit was a tank platoon of 1-66 Armored of the 3rd ABCT of the 4th Infantry Division at Fort Carson, CO.


----------



## markppcli (21 Feb 2022)

GR66 said:


> US Army Armored units were deployed in Afghanistan in a dismounted infantry role.  You lose some flexibility when you cling too tightly to defined "specialist" roles.


Right, look at 1 VP in 2009, all dismounted work, including 4 man recce patrols.


----------



## daftandbarmy (21 Feb 2022)

GR66 said:


> US Army Armored units were deployed in Afghanistan in a dismounted infantry role.  You lose some flexibility when you cling too tightly to defined "specialist" roles.



Tangentially...

Artillery and armoured units were regularly deployed as Infantry in Northern Ireland, over decades, and generally did an excellent job in a variety of operational roles previously thought of as 'Infantry only' tasks.

I've even had some Navy bods on patrols who did a great job... under supervision of course


----------



## markppcli (22 Feb 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Tangentially...
> 
> Artillery and armoured units were regularly deployed as Infantry in Northern Ireland, over decades, and generally did an excellent job in a variety of operational roles previously thought of as 'Infantry only' tasks.
> 
> I've even had some Navy bods on patrols who did a great job... under supervision of course


I believe Artillery were used by the Brits in Afghanistan as cimic / psy ops types. “Non kinetic strikes” was the term


----------



## Halifax Tar (22 Feb 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Tangentially...
> 
> Artillery and armoured units were regularly deployed as Infantry in Northern Ireland, over decades, and generally did an excellent job in a variety of operational roles previously thought of as 'Infantry only' tasks.
> 
> I've even had some Navy bods on patrols who did a great job... under supervision of course



Walking and carrying rifle aren't that hard


----------



## KevinB (22 Feb 2022)

markppcli said:


> Right, look at 1 VP in 2009, all dismounted work, including 4 man recce patrols.


Big difference between Canadian Infantry who also drive in a LAV, than tankers...



daftandbarmy said:


> Tangentially...
> 
> Artillery and armoured units were regularly deployed as Infantry in Northern Ireland, over decades, and generally did an excellent job in a variety of operational roles previously thought of as 'Infantry only' tasks.
> 
> I've even had some Navy bods on patrols who did a great job... under supervision of course


Not to bash the issues of the Troubles - but Urban/Rural Patrolling in NI is significantly different that the same task in most areas of Iraq or Afghanistan.
  When I was in Iraq the US Army had Armored and Artillery units on FOB/COB security missions.   They didn't really leave the wire in those roles, just permitter patrols and OP (Tower) duty  - they had for the most part rolled Infantry and MP's into convoy duties after the Artillery and Armored had colossally screwed those up.  

 There is a major difference in the attitude and experience/training when units come under contact especially dismounted or in light vehicles - Infantry generally revert to close with and destroy - while other units tend to not do that.


----------



## markppcli (22 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> Big difference between Canadian Infantry who also drive in a LAV, than tankers...


I was more commenting on the value of DICE being strictly for the light infantry try and pointing out that mech sized infantry can and is tasked with those tasks.


----------



## quadrapiper (22 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> There is a major difference in the attitude and experience/training when units come under contact especially dismounted or in light vehicles - Infantry generally revert to close with and destroy - while other units tend to not do that.


How much of a difference is there between US armour/artillery and their Canadian or British peers as far as breadth of training, noting the US habit of thin-slicing job specs?


----------



## daftandbarmy (22 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> Big difference between Canadian Infantry who also drive in a LAV, than tankers...
> 
> 
> Not to bash the issues of the Troubles - but Urban/Rural Patrolling in NI is significantly different that the same task in most areas of Iraq or Afghanistan.
> ...



IMHO, there's alot that the (generally Testosterone afflicted) Infantry can learn from that approach


----------



## Kirkhill (22 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> Big difference between Canadian Infantry who also drive in a LAV, than tankers...
> 
> 
> Not to bash the issues of the Troubles - but Urban/Rural Patrolling in NI is significantly different that the same task in most areas of Iraq or Afghanistan.
> ...



I think what I'm seeing from this discussion is that no matter what the task is, it takes time to become proficient. 

And the second point is that often your previous experience is a hindrance to adapting to your current situation.

I always figure it takes two years for a new body to learn, understand and adapt when moved into a different environment.   Experienced hands can take longer.

Pack a lunch and bring the wife and kids.


----------



## KevinB (22 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> I think what I'm seeing from this discussion is that no matter what the task is, it takes time to become proficient.
> 
> And the second point is that often your previous experience is a hindrance to adapting to your current situation.


  I think it is more than one can either incorrectly attempt to apply previous experience that either isn't relevant or is OBE.
   Some folks can adapt better on the fly and relate training and experiences better than others - regardless of trade




quadrapiper said:


> How much of a difference is there between US armour/artillery and their Canadian or British peers as far as breadth of training, noting the US habit of thin-slicing job specs?


Armor  
  Honestly I have next to no recent experience with CAF Armor or Arty personnel -- I can tell you E Bty (Para) back in the day was a fairly proficient in the basic Infantry skills - local defense task/skills in W Bty (with the M109) where significantly higher than US Arty in the 2000-2014 time frame -- Squad/Team/Individual level fire and movement was pretty much a unknown thing to most - and the NCO and O levels had virtually no understanding of anything to do with dismounted fighting, or as a former member here (BigRed) can attest that the NCO corps was also completely incompetent in doing what one would expect of a NCO corps - like having ammunition for troops to move back through a red zone after a range...
   These major unit (even trade) level deficiencies where one of the goals the now disbanded Asymetrical Warfare Group was working on fixing - both with Mobile Training Teams when deployed - at units home stations - or at the AWG sites (Ft Meade and AP Hill) 




Kirkhill said:


> I always figure it takes two years for a new body to learn, understand and adapt when moved into a different environment.   Experienced hands can take longer.
> 
> Pack a lunch and bring the wife and kids.


The Aussie SASR have a board outside one of their ranges reminding people that 1) Perfect Practice makes Perfect 2) 10,000 reps are required to commit something to unconscious memory.


----------



## Kirkhill (22 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> The Aussie SASR have a board outside one of their ranges reminding people that 1) Perfect Practice makes Perfect 2) 10,000 reps are required to commit something to unconscious memory.


Which rather goes to my point.

If someone has done something 10000 times they are no longer thinking.  

I don't want that person on my team.  I'd sooner somebody that observes and works from first principles.


----------



## KevinB (22 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Which rather goes to my point.
> 
> If someone has done something 10000 times they are no longer thinking.
> 
> I don't want that person on my team.  I'd sooner somebody that observes and works from first principles.


That is the wrong take away -- that is discussing things like mag changes - target scans etc.
  You have removed a lot of processing power to allow the Assaulter to use their mind to see the picture of the fight - and react accordingly -- rather than being slowed down by thinking and looking for the right mag pouch to get a reload - the need to look at the mag well etc.

The goal of IA's is to make them immediate - putting those task into the "unconscious memory" frees up the active memory to be able to react quicker and more accurately to what is seen and presented.


----------



## daftandbarmy (22 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> That is the wrong take away -- that is discussing things like mag changes - target scans etc.
> You have removed a lot of processing power to allow the Assaulter to use their mind to see the picture of the fight - and react accordingly -- rather than being slowed down by thinking and looking for the right mag pouch to get a reload - the need to look at the mag well etc.
> 
> The goal of IA's is to make them immediate - putting those task into the "unconscious memory" frees up the active memory to be able to react quicker and more accurately to what is seen and presented.



(Grim memories of switching between traditional webbing and chest rigs and desperately searching for a mag that wasn't there in each case .... until I got my sh&t together)


----------



## Kirkhill (22 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> That is the wrong take away -- that is discussing things like mag changes - target scans etc.
> You have removed a lot of processing power to allow the Assaulter to use their mind to see the picture of the fight - and react accordingly -- rather than being slowed down by thinking and looking for the right mag pouch to get a reload - the need to look at the mag well etc.
> 
> The goal of IA's is to make them immediate - putting those task into the "unconscious memory" frees up the active memory to be able to react quicker and more accurately to what is seen and presented.



Your point is understood but my counter is that "muscle memory" doesn't just extend to swapping mags.  Anyone that has gone through a door too many times and found exactly the same scenario before them, and has been conditioned to react the same way, will twitch exactly the same way the next time they go through a door.

They will twitch to solution A, and then consider alternatives B and C that they have encountered before.  Meanwhile Plan Zulu might be called for.  But they have already committed to A, B or C.


----------



## KevinB (22 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Your point is understood but my counter is that "muscle memory" doesn't just extend to swapping mags.  Anyone that has gone through a door too many times and found exactly the same scenario before them, and has been conditioned to react the same way, will twitch exactly the same way the next time they go through a door.
> 
> They will twitch to solution A, and then consider alternatives B and C that they have encountered before.  Meanwhile Plan Zulu might be called for.  But they have already committed to A, B or C.


Maybe once or twice - but historically more experienced high trained troops can switch gears faster.
  Dev had a house dropped on a team - they changed SOP's that night, and have probably the most advanced program on the planet now.

Part of the issue is to ensure you just don't have hammers in your toolbox - or everything then looks like a nail...


----------



## lenaitch (22 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> I think it is more than one can either incorrectly attempt to apply previous experience that either isn't relevant or is OBE.
> Some folks can adapt better on the fly and relate training and experiences better than others - regardless of trade
> 
> 
> ...



It's an interpretation of Malcolm Galdwell's '10,000 hour rule' required to achieve mastery in something.  According to the Internet, a lot of researchers have debunked it.









						Researcher Behind ‘10,000-Hour Rule’ Says Good Teaching Matters, Not Just Practice - EdSurge News
					

You’ve probably heard of the 10,000 hour rule, which was popularized by Malcolm Gladwell’s blockbuster book “Outliers.” As Gladwell tells it, the rule ...




					www.edsurge.com


----------



## KevinB (22 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> It's an interpretation of Malcolm Galdwell's '10,000 hour rule' required to achieve mastery in something.  According to the Internet, a lot of researchers have debunked it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yet virtually all Tier 1 entities worldwide (that study human performance more than an Olympic Athlete) all have bought into...
   Agreed on good teaching - hence it is not practice makes perfect - but perfect practice makes perfect.


----------



## Kirkhill (22 Feb 2022)

lenaitch said:


> It's an interpretation of Malcolm Galdwell's '10,000 hour rule' required to achieve mastery in something.  According to the Internet, a lot of researchers have debunked it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I suggest there is a significant difference between 10,000 hours of instruction and 10,000 repetitions.  I believe the Madrassas to a great job using the 10,000 repetition technique.


----------



## MJP (22 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> Yet virtually all Tier 1 entities worldwide (that study human performance more than an Olympic Athlete) all have bought into...
> Agreed on good teaching - hence it is not practice makes perfect - but perfect practice makes perfect.


Yea they all bought in Grossman's malarkey too, doesn't mean it is actually true or rather good science


----------



## KevinB (22 Feb 2022)

MJP said:


> Yea they all bought in Grossman's malarkey too, doesn't mean it is actually true or rather good science


Grossman went sideways after BulletProof Mind.


----------



## Kirkhill (22 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> Yet virtually all Tier 1 entities worldwide (that study human performance more than an Olympic Athlete) all have bought into...
> Agreed on good teaching - hence it is not practice makes perfect - but perfect practice makes perfect.



Kevin, 

If I need somebody to run 100m in 9.58 then I will hire Usain Bolt.   If I need a door kicked in efficiently then I know what my options are.  There are good people that have mastered their trades.

But I am not going to hire a cooper to brew my beer.

On the other hand, given enough time I am sure that Usain, DevGru and the Cooper could all produce passable beers that we could enjoy together.

The key element is indeed time.

But not so much time spent in practice as time spent in appreciation, in estimation.  And, I suggest, in the military world that time is bought through a combination of space, and situational awareness.   That ultimately is why I lean so heavily towards small elements, ISR and long range precision fires.


----------



## KevinB (22 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Kevin,
> 
> If I need somebody to run 100m in 9.58 then I will hire Usain Bolt.   If I need a door kicked in efficiently then I know what my options are.  There are good people that have mastered their trades.
> 
> ...


I'm a huge fan of small elements - up until you end up needing a larger one.
  A friend of mine from Canada was in a small detachment - with every ISR available - and then stuff went sideways - their Det went Winchester - and the (then) fledgling Aussie SOAR extracted them from the compound they where trapped in.

 There is a time and a place for small special elements - and a time for a combined arms maneuver force in strength.

I don't want to drain this thread further than I already have.


----------



## Kirkhill (22 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> I'm a huge fan of small elements - up until you end up needing a larger one.
> A friend of mine from Canada was in a small detachment - with every ISR available - and then stuff went sideways - their Det went Winchester - and the (then) fledgling Aussie SOAR extracted them from the compound they where trapped in.
> 
> There is a time and a place for small special elements - and a time for a combined arms maneuver force in strength.
> ...




Small elements



Large structures






						LEGO World Records
					

World Records for LEGO constructions, LEGO events and       LEGO collections



					www.recordholders.org
				




As I have said elsewhere

Time, Money, Effort and Persistence

And as somebody else has said

Practice.


----------



## KevinB (22 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Small elements
> 
> View attachment 68914
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with some of it.
  But your 4-6 man Bricks require a greater level of skill experience training etc (read lots of $) 
Because you need to be able to deal with much more in a small team - medic, comms, fire support, as well as the close fight.


----------



## Kirkhill (22 Feb 2022)

KevinB said:


> I don't disagree with some of it.
> But your 4-6 man Bricks require a greater level of skill experience training etc (read lots of $)
> Because you need to be able to deal with much more in a small team - medic, comms, fire support, as well as the close fight.



I agree.

The buddy system will never work.











						Rifle Brigade (The Prince Consort's Own) - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## blacktriangle (22 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> On the other hand, given enough time I am sure that Usain, DevGru and the Cooper could all produce passable beers that we could enjoy together.
> 
> The key element is indeed time.


Given time, quality inputs (human & material), and the right processes, humanity can accomplish amazing things.


----------



## KevinB (22 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> I agree.
> 
> The buddy system will never work.
> 
> ...


My point is simply that if one is going to deploy smaller teams - one needs to train and equip then in such a manner as they are effective.

 Do I think that Light Infantry can be effective GIB's - yes at the end of the day LI is a GIB in some manner - be it helicopter, or aircraft, APC or boat/ship - do I think it is a waste of a trained LI formation to be GIB's in the back of an IFV - yes in most cases.

I'm getting off task again to the thread at hand but.

I see the CA as needing 1 Heavy Force - Tanks, IFV, SPA etc. 1-2 Med Forces 1-2 Light Forces 
   I do not see them all the same, as I think there is an advantage to specializing.

Could you use the Brick as a building block - yes - but then not all your Lego's will be the same - they may have the same shape - but some will be made of paper, and others stone - which is fine as long as you remember not to build the stone wall with some paper blocks...


----------



## Kirkhill (22 Feb 2022)

Or you can understand the capabilities of paper and not try do things the way you would with stone.


I can find you an engineer that would cheerfully build you a paper wall that would deflect cannon balls as well as stone, and be easier to repair.


----------



## markppcli (23 Feb 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Your point is understood but my counter is that "muscle memory" doesn't just extend to swapping mags.  Anyone that has gone through a door too many times and found exactly the same scenario before them, and has been conditioned to react the same way, will twitch exactly the same way the next time they go through a door.
> 
> They will twitch to solution A, and then consider alternatives B and C that they have encountered before.  Meanwhile Plan Zulu might be called for.  But they have already committed to A, B or C.


That reeks of “over training effecting the. Atrial fighting spirit.” My guys who have done more training are more able to improvise because they have see AB and C so D or E is less of a surprise.


----------



## OceanBonfire (1 Mar 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1498689529410170880








						Canadian Army
					

Approximately 600 Canadian Army soldiers took part in the validation at the Joint Readiness Training Centre in Fort Polk, Louisiana, from 5 to 28 February. This annual exercise has focused on...




					www.facebook.com


----------



## Eye In The Sky (1 Mar 2022)

While this is 'nice to see'...isn't one of the Cdn troops wearing the "new" uniform and a CADPAT TW bush hat?

I really dislike when we do that.  Get it all...issue it all.  The "some of this/some of that" makes it obvious we underbudget and suck at procurement.


----------



## Ostrozac (1 Mar 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> The "some of this/some of that" makes it obvious we underbudget and suck at procurement.


But we do underbudget. And we do suck at procurement. Why lie about it, or try to hide it? Shouldn’t we be transparent, within the limits of security?


----------



## Eye In The Sky (1 Mar 2022)

Ostrozac said:


> But we do underbudget. And we do suck at procurement. Why lie about it, or try to hide it? Shouldn’t we be transparent, within the limits of security?



I don't think we've "tried to hide it", specifically with uniforms, for decades.  We did the same thing with CADPAT;  some people in OD Cbts, with CADPAT jackets, 1970s toques...people in CADPAT field dress except the Robin Hook bush hat...

We do the "mix and match" well;  I just wish we wouldn't....especially on an exchange.  Mom and dad should make sure our socks match when we go to a sleepover...


----------



## KevinB (1 Mar 2022)

The Bush Hat looks surprising like my early original trial pattern one (with the brown) and not the stupid large brim.
  But that was 2000-2001 era and he's not that old.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (2 Mar 2022)

KevinB said:


> The Bush Hat looks surprising like my early original trial pattern one (with the brown) and not *the stupid large brim*.
> But that was 2000-2001 era and he's not that old.



The tailor up at The Rock in ASAB would _'improve'_ the size of the brim for about $10USD....rumour has it.  I do not like the '_hat, floppy, gardening_' design either.


----------



## OldSolduer (2 Mar 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> We do the "mix and match" well;  I just wish we wouldn't....especially on an exchange.  Mom and dad should make sure our socks match when we go to a sleepover...


Resurrecting Jimmy maybe would help?


----------



## KevinB (2 Mar 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Resurrecting Jimmy maybe would help?


Negative, from his idiocy patrolling Petawawa training areas for troops not wearing helmets in vehicles, to kit checks for matching socks in Calgary - he gave me the idea he really just wanted to be a bad RSM not a General.


----------



## Weinie (2 Mar 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Resurrecting Jimmy maybe would help?


Resurrecting Jimmy would imply that he died and went to Heaven.I am pretty sure when he passes the elevator will only go one way.


----------



## GK .Dundas (2 Mar 2022)

I used to have a field mgr.who was so anal I once asked if he was related to you know who.


----------



## daftandbarmy (2 Mar 2022)

Weinie said:


> Resurrecting Jimmy would imply that he died and went to Heaven.I am pretty sure when he passes the elevator will only go one way.





Chair, Board of Directors, Canadian Intelligence Network (CIN)/Président, Conseil d'administration, Réseau canadien de renseignement



			https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-cox-31567a172/?originalSubdomain=ca


----------



## OldSolduer (2 Mar 2022)

KevinB said:


> Negative, from his idiocy patrolling Petawawa training areas for troops not wearing helmets in vehicles, to kit checks for matching socks in Calgary - he gave me the idea he really just wanted to be a bad RSM not a General.


A completely wrong person in command at any time. A retired RCR I work with told me tales of derring do by Jimmy.


----------



## Weinie (2 Mar 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> A completely wrong person in command at any time. A retired RCR I work with told me tales of derring do by Jimmy.


The tales are legion.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (2 Mar 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Chair, Board of Directors, Canadian Intelligence Network (CIN)/Président, Conseil d'administration, Réseau canadien de renseignement
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-cox-31567a172/?originalSubdomain=ca



And   Governor, Council of Governors Commissionaires Ottawa    . . .    I wonder if their socks match.

I had no love lost with BGen Cox and would not have liked to repeat the experience of serving under his command again.  However, he was probably the only officer in my experience who applied the maxim "train as you would fight" to the nth degree.  That was probably his failing; he didn't differentiate between a driver wheeled course that had the students living in slit trenches with a work-up ex in anticipation of a no-duff mission.  While most of us in those days followed a philosophy of "any fool can be uncomfortable", his view was "make them uncomfortable so they are prepared for war".


----------



## KevinB (2 Mar 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> And   Governor, Council of Governors Commissionaires Ottawa    . . .    I wonder if their socks match.
> 
> I had no love lost with BGen Cox and would not have liked to repeat the experience of serving under his command again.  However, he was probably the only officer in my experience who applied the maxim "train as you would fight" to the nth degree.  That was probably his failing; he didn't differentiate between a driver wheeled course that had the students living in slit trenches with a work-up ex in anticipation of a no-duff mission.  While most of us in those days followed a philosophy of "any fool can be uncomfortable", his view was "make them uncomfortable so they are prepared for war".


I think he thought that was what he was doing, but so many of his ideas for 'war fighting readiness" where incredibly dumb.
  I remember him arriving on a 2RCHA gun position back in the SSF days - and screaming about not wearing helmets -- when the then issued helmet did NOT allow for ear defenders -- I blame him for the start of my ear problems.

An officer with half a brain would have wondered why it was SOP for Arty not to wear helmets on a gun position.
   Then started a process to get helmets that would allow for ear protection to be worn.

Not tell troops to wear helmets and ignore ear protection (plugs work fine for rifle fire  - but don't really work for big guns and explosions)


----------



## daftandbarmy (2 Mar 2022)

KevinB said:


> I think he thought that was what he was doing, but so many of his ideas for 'war fighting readiness" where incredibly dumb.
> I remember him arriving on a 2RCHA gun position back in the SSF days - and *screaming about not wearing helmets* -- when the then issued helmet did NOT allow for ear defenders -- I blame him for the start of my ear problems.
> 
> An officer with half a brain would have wondered why it was SOP for Arty not to wear helmets on a gun position.
> ...



General Screamer.... 

.... I can recall a couple of people who earned that nickname, and who were roundly loathed


----------



## Weinie (2 Mar 2022)

So my wifes' C1A1 boots that she has had since basic (1998) gave up the ghost last week. She took advantage of Bootforgen and bought some Lowa's Task Force Z-85 GTX boots from Fundy Tactical. I am a Magnum guy, and how no idea how good the Lowa's are. Can anybody weigh in on them?


----------



## dapaterson (2 Mar 2022)

You're really planning to intervene in your wife's footwear?  Planning to discover the comfort level of a Lowa halfway up your ass?


----------



## KevinB (2 Mar 2022)

Weinie said:


> So my wifes' C1A1 boots that she has had since basic (1998) gave up the ghost last week. She took advantage of Bootforgen and bought some Lowa's Task Force Z-85 GTX boots from Fundy Tactical. I am a Magnum guy, and how no idea how good the Lowa's are. Can anybody weigh in on them?


Excellent footwear


----------



## Furniture (2 Mar 2022)

Weinie said:


> So my wifes' C1A1 boots that she has had since basic (1998) gave up the ghost last week. She took advantage of Bootforgen and bought some Lowa's Task Force Z-85 GTX boots from Fundy Tactical. I am a Magnum guy, and how no idea how good the Lowa's are. Can anybody weigh in on them?


I don't have the tactical boots (have never found wide ones in Canada), but I just dropped almost $400 on my second pair of Renegades. The first pair have held up well for the last 6+ years of use, though it was nothing extreme.


----------



## OceanBonfire (4 Mar 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499425704718606342


----------



## markppcli (5 Mar 2022)

Weinie said:


> So my wifes' C1A1 boots that she has had since basic (1998) gave up the ghost last week. She took advantage of Bootforgen and bought some Lowa's Task Force Z-85 GTX boots from Fundy Tactical. I am a Magnum guy, and how no idea how good the Lowa's are. Can anybody weigh in on them?


Z8s are to a pair of magnums what a BMW M3 is to a dodge neon.


----------



## daftandbarmy (5 Mar 2022)

OceanBonfire said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499425704718606342



Let me guess... 

The Reservist is the one on the end with the out of date kit who looks like he's not really part of the team?


----------



## GK .Dundas (5 Mar 2022)

Well that and the fact that they're about send the snot nosed kid out for coffee for them.


----------



## kev994 (5 Mar 2022)

Furniture said:


> I don't have the tactical boots (have never found wide ones in Canada), but I just dropped almost $400 on my second pair of Renegades. The first pair have held up well for the last 6+ years of use, though it was nothing extreme.


Edit: disregard, I think I found the ones you mean. 








						LOWA Renegade II GTX HI TF | Made in Europe | LOWA Boots Canada
					

Excellent comfort, flexibility, lightness and the best-possible support on any terrains; the LOWA RENEGADE II GTX HI TF is multi-talent!




					www.lowa.ca


----------



## Furniture (5 Mar 2022)

kev994 said:


> Edit: disregard, I think I found the ones you mean.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was actually referring to these: 









						LOWA Renegade GTX MID WIDE Men | Made in Europe | LOWA Canada
					

The #1 boot sold in Europe. The LOWA Renegade GTX WIDE brings trekking comfort to a multifunction boot. Durable/Waterproof/Breathable




					www.lowa.ca
				




I haven't found any of their wide sizes in Canada, so I wear Altama, or Altberg in uniform.


----------



## kev994 (5 Mar 2022)

Furniture said:


> I was actually referring to these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Altitude sports sells them in wide, though they appear mostly out of stock. Are they tall enough for bootforgen? 








						Lowa  Renegade GTX Mid Boots - Wide - Men's
					

Shop the Renegade GTX Mid Boots - Wide - Men's from Lowa. FREE shipping over $49. Fast & Simple Returns. Here to serve You




					www.altitude-sports.com


----------



## Furniture (5 Mar 2022)

kev994 said:


> Altitude sports sells them in wide, though they appear mostly out of stock. Are they tall enough for bootforgen?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nope, they are just my daily use footwear. Like I said, I wear Altberg or Altama in uniform, I was just pointing out that Lowa makes great boots, such good boots that the first pair lasted 6 years, and I just picked up the exact same ones to replace the worn out boots.


----------



## daftandbarmy (5 Mar 2022)

Hanwag Alaskan GTX boots are BOOTFORGEN approved. They've been awesome....


----------



## KevinB (5 Mar 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Hanwag Alaskan GTX boots are BOOTFORGEN approved. They've been awesome....


I'm more of a SHOEFORGEN sort of guy...


----------



## daftandbarmy (5 Mar 2022)

KevinB said:


> I'm more of a SHOEFORGEN sort of guy...
> View attachment 69230



Shall be known as the 'Hush Puppy Commando'


----------



## markppcli (9 Mar 2022)

The race down to 13 cm is pretty funny to watch honestly.


----------



## markppcli (20 Mar 2022)

3 PPCLI trialing new helmets.


----------



## dapaterson (20 Mar 2022)

I'd have thought a PPCLI helmet trial would have involved Broomaloo


----------



## markppcli (20 Mar 2022)

dapaterson said:


> I'd have thought a PPCLI helmet trial would have involved Broomaloo


Helmets that fit wouldn’t be sporting.


----------



## OceanBonfire (5 Oct 2022)

CJOC Command Team wearing the Prototype J pattern:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575198908807974912


----------



## Furniture (5 Oct 2022)

OceanBonfire said:


> CJOC Command Team wearing the Prototype J pattern:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575198908807974912


I'm sure the troops deployed are overjoyed to see senior people in a new uniform, likely keeps the zeal for King and Country alive in them. 

That said, the new pattern seems far more practical outside temperate woodlands.


----------



## OldSolduer (5 Oct 2022)

Furniture said:


> I'm sure the troops deployed are overjoyed to see senior people in a new uniform, likely keeps the zeal for King and Country alive in them.


The reason that senior commanders are issued it first or close is that it demonstrates the clothing is ok to wear on issue.


----------



## RedFive (5 Oct 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> The reason that senior commanders are issued it first or close is that it demonstrates the clothing is ok to wear on issue.


Cool. Can I be issued a flak vest in old CADPAT for the first time in my 11 year career?


----------



## OldSolduer (5 Oct 2022)

RedFive said:


> Cool. Can I be issued a flak vest in old CADPAT for the first time in my 11 year career?


lol I did 38 years - our first flak vests were Vietnam era OD. I cannot remember ever being issued a CADPAT flak vest.


----------



## RedFive (5 Oct 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> lol I did 38 years - our first flak vests were Vietnam era OD. I cannot remember ever being issued a CADPAT flak vest.


At least you had a vest.

I've been given ill fitting old American woodland vests a handful of times to throw grenades, that's it. Put it on, toss, take it off and hand to the next guy.

Embarrassing.


----------



## daftandbarmy (5 Oct 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> The reason that senior commanders are issued it first or close is that it demonstrates the clothing is ok to wear on issue elitism, posturing and peak Chateau Generalship.



There, FTFY


----------



## OldSolduer (5 Oct 2022)

RedFive said:


> At least you had a vest.
> 
> I've been given ill fitting old American woodland vests a handful of times to throw grenades, that's it. Put it on, toss, take it off and hand to the next guy.
> 
> Embarrassing.


yes absolutely. The original OD Goretex kit all had to be returned when we got back from Bosnia so another rotation could have it. Super cheap.


----------



## Maxman1 (5 Oct 2022)

RedFive said:


> Cool. Can I be issued a flak vest in old CADPAT for the first time in my 11 year career?



Just "forget" to return it next time you're provided one without signing for it. Everyone I know who has one did that.


----------



## dimsum (5 Oct 2022)

RedFive said:


> At least you had a vest.
> 
> I've been given ill fitting old American woodland vests a handful of times to throw grenades, that's it. Put it on, toss, take it off and hand to the next guy.
> 
> Embarrassing.


If I recall correctly, even on deployment to Afghanistan, you got the vest issued just before (and plates later than that), then returned everything right when after you got back.

I assumed (probably incorrectly) that the vest is pretty useless without the plates/kevlar, and that the plates/kevlar are controlled items...?  

Then again, I've been trying to return my helmet for years.


----------



## KevinB (5 Oct 2022)

dimsum said:


> If I recall correctly, even on deployment to Afghanistan, you got the vest issued just before (and plates later than that), then returned everything right when after you got back.
> 
> I assumed (probably incorrectly) that the vest is pretty useless without the plates/kevlar, and that the plates/kevlar are controlled items...?
> 
> Then again, I've been trying to return my helmet for years.


When I released I couldn’t return my helmet. 
   It wasn’t on my docs apparently…


----------



## Weinie (5 Oct 2022)

KevinB said:


> When I released I couldn’t return my helmet.
> It wasn’t on my docs apparently…


I tried to return stuff that hasn't been issued for years.


----------



## MH2022 (5 Oct 2022)

dimsum said:


> If I recall correctly, even on deployment to Afghanistan, you got the vest issued just before (and plates later than that), then returned everything right when after you got back.
> 
> I assumed (probably incorrectly) that the vest is pretty useless without the plates/kevlar, and that the plates/kevlar are controlled items...?
> 
> Then again, I've been trying to return my helmet for years.


For the last few years at least in RegF for combat arms you sign for one from your unit and don't turn it in till you leave said unit or not at all and take it to your next unit. Even in The PRes it's become much more common to get issued a frag for course or exercise ya know train as ya fight and all. And the soft armour stays with the vest.


----------



## MJP (5 Oct 2022)

MH2022 said:


> For the last few years at least in RegF for combat arms you sign for one from your unit and don't turn it in till you leave said unit or not at all and take it to your next unit. Even in The PRes it's become much more common to get issued a frag for course or exercise ya know train as ya fight and all. And the soft armour stays with the vest.


I haven't looked at the SOIs in a while but it seems to be restricted to CMBG folks only along with a handful of other UICs

Note 3H essentially states that while on Land CJOC ops folks from RCN/RCAF will receive on temp basis




If anyone ever wants to see the most current or even older scales they are on DRMIS so find someone with DRMIS access.  The OPIs within each environment (usually the G/N/A4 Supply at the L1) also usually have copies.  Generally clothing stores also have them and/or access them on a regular basis.

TCode CV04N
Doc Type: MAD
Max Hits: 99999 (there are only 9kish records but better safe than sorry  )
Description: _scale designation_ or wildcard *.  

Note you can just wild card * or you can wildcard with some filter EG: * 01301 will only return MAD docs that 

You generally need the scale designation but you can wildcard the description with a * plus you'll need to extend the max number of hits (99999)



To get the latest one, add the from date to the report by clicking on current layout and bringing from date to the report and then sort


----------



## Eye In The Sky (5 Oct 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> The reason that senior commanders are issued it first or close is that it demonstrates the clothing is ok to wear on issue.


 You’re not serious I hope…


----------



## Edward Campbell (5 Oct 2022)

Weinie said:


> I tried to return stuff that hasn't been issued for years.


When I retired, 25+ years ago, I made an appointment to turn in my stuff at NDHQ clothing stores. I appeared with a kit bag and a couple of the those big, reusable, CF moving boxes. I told the NCO "I washed and cleaned everything ... but I'm not retuning my 'cups, enamel' or my 'ration bag' because I still use both (the ration bag for shaving gear when I travel) and I haven't seen my hold-all or sewing kit in decades. My wife is keeping my barrack box to store stuff she wants to give to her grandkids."

The nice corporal took out my envelope full of documents, tossed them in the trash, signed my clearance form and said, "enjoy your retirement, sir."

"What happens to all this stuff?" I asked.

She looked at it and said, "Sir, your newest accountable item, a pair of combat boots, was issued almost 15 years ago ... it all goes for disposal as trash."


----------



## Halifax Tar (6 Oct 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> When I retired, 25+ years ago, I made an appointment to turn in my stuff at NDHQ clothing stores. I appeared with a kit bag and a couple of the those big, reusable, CF moving boxes. I told the NCO "I washed and cleaned everything ... but I'm not retuning my 'cups, enamel' or my 'ration bag' because I still use both (the ration bag for shaving gear when I travel) and I haven't seen my hold-all or sewing kit in decades. My wife is keeping my barrack box to store stuff she wants to give to her grandkids."
> 
> The nice corporal took out my envelope full of documents, tossed them in the trash, signed my clearance form and said, "enjoy your retirement, sir."
> 
> ...



Next to skin items, DEUs and Boots all go back to the member or can be disposed of through clothing, boots with a hole punched.

Operational kit is inspected for serviceability and is either scrapped or dry cleaned and put back into circulation. 

Having said that our clothing docs are a mess.  And most require MLR action to clear them.


----------



## RangerRay (6 Oct 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> lol I did 38 years - our first flak vests were Vietnam era OD. I cannot remember ever being issued a CADPAT flak vest.


Must have been the same one I was given in the 90’s in Wainwright!


----------



## KevinB (6 Oct 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> lol I did 38 years - our first flak vests were Vietnam era OD. I cannot remember ever being issued a CADPAT flak vest.





RedFive said:


> At least you had a vest.
> 
> I've been given ill fitting old American woodland vests a handful of times to throw grenades, that's it. Put it on, toss, take it off and hand to the next guy.
> 
> Embarrassing.



As far as I can recollect in the year I was in, the 1980's with the the US Vietnam vest (which didn't stop .22LR BTW - I checked) , followed by a CAF solid green in the 90's (the FYR years) (also didn't stop .22LR) , then a mix of the FYR Green and US Army old PASGT woodland vests (the PASTG vest stopped .22LR but nothing more), and the over that plate carrier for shoot house etc work, then Green Armor with both soft and plates - then the CADPAT ones.  The there where also Blue "MP" vests issues for various things, plus the Pacific Safety soft and hard that didn't really go outside of the Hill at those times.


----------



## Good2Golf (9 Oct 2022)

Wasn’t one issue that some folks thought that the aptly named frag vest was something more than its (accurate) name suggested?  I flew users with a BV early on, and we were all clear on the difference of a true BV and the green beast.


----------



## KevinB (9 Oct 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Wasn’t one issue that some folks thought that the aptly named frag vest was something more than its (accurate) name suggested?  I flew users with a BV early on, and we were all clear on the difference of a true BV and the green beast.


Yes. IIRC all the non ski vests where considered Frag vests other than:
 the ones used in conjunction with over worn plate carrier
The MP soft vest (handgun only without the PC) 
Then the current gen body Armor. 

The Vietnam era and FYR era where definitely marked as Fragmentation vests -


----------



## markppcli (31 Oct 2022)

New sleeping bags getting issued out west, in a stunning display of modernity they’re machine washable mummy bags


----------



## IRepoCans (1 Nov 2022)

Issued headlamps too!


----------



## dimsum (1 Nov 2022)

markppcli said:


> New sleeping bags getting issued out west, in a stunning display of modernity they’re machine washable mummy bags


"Back in my day, you smelled the last three people issued it, and liked it!"


----------



## markppcli (1 Nov 2022)

dimsum said:


> "Back in my day, you smelled the last three people issued it, and liked it!"


I look forward to snag that only smells like my farts


----------



## daftandbarmy (1 Nov 2022)

IRepoCans said:


> Issued headlamps too!


----------



## Eye In The Sky (1 Nov 2022)

IRepoCans said:


> Issued headlamps too!



Are they decent or junk that most people will replace with a good one that actually works?


----------



## Jarnhamar (1 Nov 2022)

markppcli said:


> New sleeping bags getting issued out west, in a stunning display of modernity they’re machine washable mummy bags


Would love to see some pics.

Are they GBA+ designed with a whole bunch of different lengths and sizes?


----------



## daftandbarmy (1 Nov 2022)

dimsum said:


> "Back in my day, you smelled the last three people issued it, and liked it!"



Bag, sleeping, RCAF, equivalent...


----------



## Eye In The Sky (1 Nov 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Bag, sleeping, RCAF, equivalent...



Why…why isn’t there a rental BMW in any of the pics?

☹️


----------



## OldSolduer (1 Nov 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Would love to see some pics.
> 
> Are they GBA+ designed with a whole bunch of different lengths and sizes?


And In trendy colours too?


----------



## markppcli (1 Nov 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Would love to see some pics.
> 
> Are they GBA+ designed with a whole bunch of different lengths and sizes?


I don’t know that GBA plus played a factor, stunning as it may be to outside observers this whole “woke army” thing isn’t reality. They are in different sizes though, which as a 6’3 guy is fantastic.


----------



## Jarnhamar (1 Nov 2022)

markppcli said:


> I don’t know that GBA plus played a factor, stunning as it may be to outside observers this whole “woke army” thing isn’t reality. They are in different sizes though, which as a 6’3 guy is fantastic.


I definitely think it's a good thing for kit and equipment. Different sized people need different sized gear.  Not as important as with female body armor and plates maybe but still pretty significant IMO.


----------



## dangerboy (1 Nov 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Would love to see some pics.
> 
> Are they GBA+ designed with a whole bunch of different lengths and sizes?


As mentioned they come in different sizes and they did look at GBA + in terms of sizing, in the user trials had female representation.


----------



## Jarnhamar (1 Nov 2022)

dangerboy said:


> As mentioned they come in different sizes and they did look at GBA + in terms of sizing, in the user trials had female representation.



Nice.

How realistic is it to expect we'll get a decent selection of sizes available  compared to having a medium-regular bag thrown at us and told that's all that's in stock?

What's the temperature rating?


----------



## dangerboy (1 Nov 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Nice.
> 
> How realistic is it to expect we'll get a decent selection of sizes available  compared to having a medium-regular bag thrown at us and told that's all that's in stock?
> 
> What's the temperature rating?


The sleeping bags come in three sizes based on height and chest circumference, Medium, Large, and Extra Large. Not sure of the temperature rating but this is a General Purpose Sleeping Bag System and while it has an inner and outer sleeping bag it is not designed for arctic conditions. DLR and DSSPM have another project, the Extreme Cold Weather Sleeping Bag that will provide sleeping bags for soldiers (and sailors, aviators) operating in arctic conditions.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (1 Nov 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Bag, sleeping, RCAF, equivalent...


I just want to say that the most hard core, closest to death course that I have ever done is the Arctic Survival Course in Resolute Bay.

An RCAF course…


----------



## markppcli (2 Nov 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Nice.
> 
> How realistic is it to expect we'll get a decent selection of sizes available  compared to having a medium-regular bag thrown at us and told that's all that's in stock?
> 
> What's the temperature rating?


We went through, and we’re sized
Small medium large, as far as I could tell. I didn’t see a temp rating, but it’s a modular system with a liner, thicker inner, and thinner outer.


----------



## dimsum (2 Nov 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> I just want to say that the most hard core, closest to death course that I have ever done is the Arctic Survival Course in Resolute Bay.
> 
> An RCAF course…


I know someone who has lost body parts on that course.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (2 Nov 2022)

dimsum said:


> I know someone who has lost body parts on that course.


It happened on my serial, too.

It gave me the appreciation that our current winter kit is just on the edge of being useful in the Arctic.


----------



## ueo (2 Nov 2022)

dimsum said:


> I know someone who has lost body parts on that course.


Not really hard core, just inattentive and often stoopid cadre.


----------



## daftandbarmy (2 Nov 2022)

dangerboy said:


> The sleeping bags come in three sizes based on height and chest circumference, Medium, Large, and Extra Large. Not sure of the temperature rating but this is a General Purpose Sleeping Bag System and while it has an inner and outer sleeping bag it is not designed for arctic conditions. DLR and DSSPM have another project, the Extreme Cold Weather Sleeping Bag that will provide sleeping bags for soldiers (and sailors, aviators) operating in arctic conditions.



The layered sleeping bag system we currently use is still one of the best in the world for extreme cold, IMHO. Especially if used with the good ol' 'Black Betty'


----------



## SeaKingTacco (2 Nov 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> The layered sleeping bag system we currently use is still one of the best in the world for extreme cold, IMHO. Especially if used with the good ol' 'Black Betty'


Stupidly, I left my ”off the books” Black Betty at home and used the issue ThermaRest. Big mistake.


----------



## daftandbarmy (2 Nov 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Stupidly, I left my ”off the books” Black Betty at home and used the issue ThermaRest. Big mistake.



The T-Rest works OK if you also use a foam 'Z-lite' pad underneath it, which you have to purchase yourself of course


----------



## SeaKingTacco (2 Nov 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> The T-Rest works OK if you also use a foam 'Z-lite' pad underneath it, which you have to purchase yourself of course


Stupidly, I left the Z-lite at home, too.

Well, you learn more when you are cold and uncomfortable, they say…


----------



## OldSolduer (2 Nov 2022)

ueo said:


> Not really hard core, just inattentive and often stoopid cadre.


To prevent that your officers and NCOs need to be very attentive to their troops and troops have to be attentive to each other. 
It’s not just physical changes ie visible signs of frostbite or cold weather injuries that you need to pay attention to. You need to pay attention to their mental state as well. 
Not everyone can endure the cold either.


----------



## daftandbarmy (2 Nov 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Stupidly, I left the Z-lite at home, too.
> 
> Well, you learn more when you are cold and uncomfortable, they say…



I rock one of these in higher altitude climbs/ colder winters. Looxury, and light

Exped DownMat XP review​


----------



## Jarnhamar (2 Nov 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> I just want to say that the most hard core, closest to death course that I have ever done is the Arctic Survival Course in Resolute Bay.
> 
> An RCAF course…



I've read up on that course and all I can say is holy crap.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (2 Nov 2022)

ueo said:


> Not really hard core, just inattentive and often stoopid cadre.


Not in my case. However, at -35C, things can go south in a hurry.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (2 Nov 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I've read up on that course and all I can say is holy crap.



The phase of SAR Tech trg completed at/near Crystal City takes the Air Ops Survival - Arctic Aircrew course to a fairly different level.

Crystal City is the small “trg camp” located about 4km north of Resolute Airport, which is where the CAFATC is located.   You can search Crystal City in Google Earth and it will take you right there. Pretty sparse location and cold as f$$k in Feb.  

I think the army Arctic Ops Course would be hard, too;  they had a lot more cold casualties than AOS-AA in ‘18.  Snowmobiles + cold wind.






						Arctic Operations Course addresses emerging Arctic challenges - Canada.ca
					

Canadian Armed Forces personnel, along with multinational partners, recently completed the Arctic Operations Course.




					www.canada.ca


----------



## IRepoCans (2 Nov 2022)

The new Arctic Operations Advisor course is way more tactical than its predecessors. The 150km advance to contact is a doozy.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (2 Nov 2022)

Is that also ran at Resolute??


----------



## SeaKingTacco (2 Nov 2022)

IRepoCans said:


> The new Arctic Operations Advisor course is way more tactical than its predecessors. The 150km advance to contact is a doozy.


That would be…a gut check.


----------



## markppcli (3 Nov 2022)

A friend just graduated from that last year. Apparently there was a Captain from France who was rudely surprised to find the course wasn’t just academic.


----------



## Eagle_Eye_View (3 Nov 2022)

Tbh, I found the course quite an eye opener and I learned a lot on it. For one, I really got to experience what works and what doesn’t in terms of our ALSE. We also had a guest instructor and students, all SERE instructors in their respective NATO countries. We shared experience and learned from each other. I’d encourage anyone contemplating going on it.


----------



## daftandbarmy (3 Nov 2022)

markppcli said:


> A friend just graduated from that last year. Apparently there was a Captain from France who was rudely surprised to find the course wasn’t just academic.



I did a similar Norwegian course.

There was a Swiss Officer on the course who found out the hard way that there weren't going to be too many 'fondue parties by the piste'


----------



## markppcli (3 Nov 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> I did a similar Norwegian course.
> 
> There was a Swiss Officer on the course who found out the hard way that there weren't going to be too many 'fondue parties by the piste'


Was he reasonably put out to find that it didn’t involved pike and shot so no one cared about the Swiss experiences ?


----------



## daftandbarmy (3 Nov 2022)

markppcli said:


> Was he reasonably put out to find that it didn’t involved pike and shot so no one cared about the Swiss experiences ?



As I recall it was an 'Athens meets Sparta' kind of thing. 

When the required 'BFT' is a 30km biathlon race carrying a 30lb ruck and a rifle, and you're used to schussing the champagne pow, it's a pretty good culture shock


----------



## markppcli (3 Nov 2022)

I have friends that were invited to a Swiss barracks, “serious soldiering” was not the order of the day.


----------



## markppcli (6 Nov 2022)

Does anyone know if the ISSP project has completely stalled out ?


----------



## PuckChaser (6 Nov 2022)

Probably a good thing, it looked like hot 1990s garbage when I saw it. I did hear a rumor they were looking to upgrade the palm pilot thing, but that was years ago.


----------



## markppcli (6 Nov 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> Probably a good thing, it looked like hot 1990s garbage when I saw it. I did hear a rumor they were looking to upgrade the palm pilot thing, but that was years ago.


I know 2 CMBG has the vests, but I think the electronics have been largely ditched. I just wasn’t sure if it was a full stop or a reset.

The palm pilot thing…. Just hand out an android phone with atak and the hook up to a 152 like they do for JTAC in the DACAS suite.


----------



## PuckChaser (6 Nov 2022)

It's not that simple and DACAS is a technically complex project. You're transmitting and storing SECRET data and the 152A doesn't work the same way the wave relay radios they tried on the first run of ISSP.


----------



## dapaterson (6 Nov 2022)

markppcli said:


> I know 2 CMBG has the vests, but I think the electronics have been largely ditched. I just wasn’t sure if it was a full stop or a reset.
> 
> The palm pilot thing…. Just hand out an android phone with atak and the hook up to a 152 like they do for JTAC in the DACAS suite.


ISSP without the electronics is like weapons without ammunition.


----------



## markppcli (6 Nov 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> It's not that simple and DACAS is a technically complex project. You're transmitting and storing SECRET data and the 152A doesn't work the same way the wave relay radios they tried on the first run of ISSP.


Fair, I’m just looking at what that palm pilot was supposed to do, and seeing something that can do broadly the same thing that’s already in service, and actually works.


----------



## markppcli (6 Nov 2022)

dapaterson said:


> ISSP without the electronics is like weapons without ammunition.


I think there’s a reasonable argument that the electronics suite want going to be much of a benefit.


----------



## KevinB (6 Nov 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> It's not that simple and DACAS is a technically complex project. You're transmitting and storing SECRET data and the 152A doesn't work the same way the wave relay radios they tried on the first run of ISSP.


What you can’t put TS stuff over an iPhone?
   Geez next you’re going to tell me I can’t just plug it into a classified network.   

Party pooper.


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## rmc_wannabe (6 Nov 2022)

KevinB said:


> What you can’t put TS stuff over an iPhone?
> Geez next you’re going to tell me I can’t just plug it into a classified network.
> 
> Party pooper.


What the kit is capable of and what DIMEUS allows are two different things. 

We often hobble tactical performance because of perceived strategic risk. Our IM/IS policies are the limiting factor, not the gear.

When we are put in a situation where our enemy can out think us faster because they don't need to TCI or put out an RFC every time they set up, then maybe things will change.


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## markppcli (6 Nov 2022)

KevinB said:


> What you can’t put TS stuff over an iPhone?
> Geez next you’re going to tell me I can’t just plug it into a classified network.
> 
> Party pooper.


I mean take the SIM card out and it’s just a tablet.


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## KevinB (6 Nov 2022)

markppcli said:


> I mean take the SIM card out and it’s just a tablet.


Actually a buddy of mine had a US made IPhone that was encrypted for TS work. 
  That project died on the vine sadly as no one else in JSOC wanted to pay for them.


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