# Air Force Forage Cap



## brian_k (20 Jan 2008)

What are the regs on wearing the AF forage cap.

I don't have easy access to the DIN otherwise I would check the dress regs.


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## navymich (20 Jan 2008)

brian_k said:
			
		

> What are the regs on wearing the AF forage cap.
> 
> I don't have easy access to the DIN otherwise I would check the dress regs.



Check out  this post.  It contains a link to where you are able to view Dress Regs on the 'net and find your answer.


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## brian_k (20 Jan 2008)

Thanks for the link airmich. I needed something like that.

Do many guys wear the forage cap instead of the wedge with their DEU's?


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## I_am_John_Galt (20 Jan 2008)

We're bringing it back!


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## navymich (20 Jan 2008)

brian_k said:
			
		

> Thanks for the link airmich. I needed something like that.
> 
> Do many guys wear the forage cap instead of the wedge with their DEU's?



You're welcome.

I haven't seen any forage caps at all recently, but maybe some of the _older _ AF guys (Loachman?  G2G?) can help out.

As I'm sure you noticed in the Dress Regs Chapter 6, Section 1, Para 5 a (1), it narrows down who is authorized to even wear it:



> ceremonial, mess and service dress –
> cap/hat service dress *(officers and
> CWOs)*, wedge cap, tuque, Yukon cap,
> or turban;


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## Good2Golf (20 Jan 2008)

Yup, I wear my forage cap when I'm not allowed to wear my beret (only applies to DEU 1A, I believe).  The stupid plastic tube inside the cap was one of the first things to go...I'm less bus-driver like without it...not quite "50 mission" style, but I don't get mistaken for an OC Transpo driver, either.

G2G


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## navymich (20 Jan 2008)

G2G, do you choose to wear the forage cap over your wedge, or are you told to wear it?


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## Crimmsy (20 Jan 2008)

brian_k said:
			
		

> Do many guys wear the forage cap instead of the wedge with their DEU's?



There's a bit of a grassroots movement afoot to bring the forage cap back to prominence. If you're on Facebook, check out the group "Forage Cap Ressucitation And Promotion Society - FCRAPS".


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## Good2Golf (20 Jan 2008)

airmich said:
			
		

> G2G, do you choose to wear the forage cap over your wedge, or are you told to wear it?



I wear the Forage cap because I am not a fan of the wedge.

For entertainment, though, may I present this little nugget? (it used to be allowable policy in the CFP 265 when I first joined.  Now it's only a tradition to do this.)

G2G


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## navymich (20 Jan 2008)

Good entertainment for sure.  I recall it being posted before, maybe by yourself about a year ago?

I don't mind the wedge, but then again, I hardly wear it as I'm typically in a beret.  Oh wait, what am I saying, I've been in a toque for the last 3 months!!  :


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## dimsum (20 Jan 2008)

Hmm.  Methinks I should use some of that hard-earned Logistik Unicorp points to score myself a peaked cap!  And yes, packing ring is definitely the first thing to go    ;D


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## brian_k (20 Jan 2008)

I think the forage cap looks a lot sharper than the wedge, but thats just me.

G2G what cap badge do you use on it, the standard size or are there larger ones for the forage cap.


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## I_am_John_Galt (20 Jan 2008)

http://www.joedrouin.com/af-hat.htm The first one ...


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## medaid (20 Jan 2008)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> _*packing ring*_ is definitely the first thing to go    ;D



Is that what that annoying plastic thing is? I cheat and stick a coat hanger into it and bend it down . I now looks _das bootesque_ mit meiner cap. Get lots of weird looks from those in the Naval element that likes their caps the way of the bus drivers... ;D


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## navymich (20 Jan 2008)

Yuck!


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## dimsum (20 Jan 2008)

And honestly how much worse was that compared to the Navy version?  I know your background Mich...   >

I'd actually wear one if I saw people in/around CFANS or 1 Cdn Air Div walking around in them.  Doesn't look too popular when the temp's -40 though...wonder why?   ???


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## armyvern (20 Jan 2008)

airmich said:
			
		

> Yuck!



Oh gawd ... it's all enough to bring back horrible memories of when I wore blue.  :-\


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## benny88 (20 Jan 2008)

Not finished BOTP yet, therefore have no cap badge but the cornflake. I got a P-cap just for something to do with my points though. I doubt I'll ever wear it before I get proper cap badges, but just so I know, are cornflakes ok with the P-cap? I seem to remember Navy OCdts in DEUs with them on...


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## brian_k (20 Jan 2008)

I think a forage cap and corn flake might look a little odd


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## armyvern (20 Jan 2008)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> And honestly how much worse was that compared to the Navy version?  I know your background Mich...   >
> 
> I'd actually wear one if I saw people in/around CFANS or 1 Cdn Air Div walking around in them.  Doesn't look too popular when the temp's -40 though...wonder why?   ???



At least the navy version has that fake vinyl/PVC/leathery/whatever the hell it is white crap on it.

The blue female bowler used to warp if any moisture got within 100m of it. Divisions in Halifax in the fog were lovely indeed. Constantly replacing the damn thing.

Speaking of vinyl, leather ... off I go -- reminds me of something. Back later.


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## dimsum (20 Jan 2008)

benny88 said:
			
		

> Not finished BOTP yet, therefore have no cap badge but the cornflake. I got a P-cap just for something to do with my points though. I doubt I'll ever wear it before I get proper cap badges, but just so I know, are cornflakes ok with the P-cap? I seem to remember Navy OCdts in DEUs with them on...



Naval Cadets (well, all navy personnel) wear them with DEUs b/c they aren't allowed to wear anything else (except Turbans, but I digress).  

I remember how much they hurt...I was convinced I was wearing the wrong size, but after 3 size changes I realised that it was just meant to hurt  :-[


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## benny88 (20 Jan 2008)

I know they can't wear anything else, so does that mean a cornflake is ok with the P-cap? (Sidenote, I realize I could requisition or order the proper badges, although I don't believe I'm entitled to wear them until trained, and must stick with the tri-force.)


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## TN2IC (20 Jan 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> The blue female bowler used to warp if any moisture got within 100m of it. Divisions in Halifax in the fog were lovely indeed. Constantly replacing the damn thing.



Ha!

We now do Divisions in the Stad Drill Shed. Now can someone explain to me, why does a "Chief" blowing a dog whistle means "Fall In"?


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## Nfld Sapper (20 Jan 2008)

Sgt  Schultz said:
			
		

> Ha!
> 
> We now do Divisions in the Stad Drill Shed. Now can someone explain to me, why does a "Chief" blowing a dog whistle means "Fall In"?



Cause its a Navy thing there my trucking friend


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## Disenchantedsailor (20 Jan 2008)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Naval Cadets (well, all navy personnel) wear them with DEUs b/c they aren't allowed to wear anything else (except Turbans, but I digress).


Not true, naval personel are permitted to wear the beret with all orders of dress save for #3 and all orders of #1 (1a, 1b) Blah Blah, and ball caps are permitted for wear onboard ship (read within the dockyard)


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## navymich (20 Jan 2008)

ArtyNewbie said:
			
		

> Not true, naval personel are permitted to wear the beret with all orders of dress save for #3 and all orders of #1 (1a, 1b) Blah Blah, and ball caps are permitted for wear onboard ship (read within the dockyard)



Actually you CAN wear the beret with some orders of #3 (ref: dress regs Ch 6, Sec 1, para 3d):



> The beret may be worn as an optional
> headdress with the following navy order of
> dress: Nos. 3A, 3B (with black trousers/
> pants/skirt) and 3C. The service dress
> ...


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## Sub_Guy (20 Jan 2008)

There's nothing wrong with the wedge, it travels well, the forge cap would just be something else to cram into a suitcase.


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## navymich (20 Jan 2008)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> And honestly how much worse was that compared to the Navy version?  I know your background Mich...   >



Like I've said before, if I picked an element based on uniform, I would have stayed Navy.  The black & white looked so much sharper.


/off topic



			
				Sgt  Schultz said:
			
		

> Ha!
> 
> We now do Divisions in the Stad Drill Shed. Now can someone explain to me, why does a "Chief" blowing a dog whistle means "Fall In"?



THUNDER whistle my non-navy friend.


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## dimsum (20 Jan 2008)

airmich said:
			
		

> THUNDER whistle my non-navy friend.



Ha.  I was confused by the "dog" whistle too, but Thunder whistle made perfect sense.


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## brian_k (20 Jan 2008)

I know in the regs it says i can wear an AF forage cap but I don't often see guys wearing it so should I be asking someone at my base before I wear it?


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## navymich (20 Jan 2008)

brian_k said:
			
		

> I know in the regs it says i can wear an AF forage cap but I don't often see guys wearing it so should I be asking someone at my base before I wear it?



When in doubt, always ask.  As well, if it is for a parade or such, the orders for it will typically include specifics such as whether women can wear the skirt, or if you wear the wedge or cap.


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## aesop081 (20 Jan 2008)

I dont even have an AF p-cap !!!!


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## Disenchantedsailor (20 Jan 2008)

airmich said:
			
		

> Actually you CAN wear the beret with some orders of #3 (ref: dress regs Ch 6, Sec 1, para 3d):



My bad I should have been a little clearer, what I meant was the order #3 and forgot to add that the sub orders, less whites allowed for the wear of the beret. so basically what you said.


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## niceasdrhuxtable (20 Jan 2008)

brian_k said:
			
		

> I know in the regs it says i can wear an AF forage cap but I don't often see guys wearing it so should I be asking someone at my base before I wear it?



Would you really want to haul that thing around with you all day long? The wedge fits so nicely under your belt for easy storage and transit


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## Ex-Dragoon (20 Jan 2008)

Sgt  Schultz said:
			
		

> Ha!
> 
> We now do Divisions in the Stad Drill Shed. Now can someone explain to me, why does a "Chief" blowing a dog whistle means "Fall In"?



A little more respect for other elements traditions goes a long way....

"dog whistle" is a bosun call

Navy.ca Staff


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## Good2Golf (20 Jan 2008)

Wedges are for poofters...real men wear forage caps...especially famous Canadian fighter aces like George "Buzz" Beurling, seen below with fellow pilot, Bob Middlemiss (now 427 Sqn's HCol).

Photo can be seen at Aces of WW2.


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## I_am_John_Galt (20 Jan 2008)

No too many of the Aces on the walls of the Glass Palace are wearing Wedges ... they can be kinda okay if you rip the stitches out when you're hammered.  :

Not even sure if I still have a beret ...


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## Good2Golf (20 Jan 2008)

Aden_Gatling said:
			
		

> No too many of the Aces on the walls of the Glass Palace are wearing Wedges ... they can be kinda okay if you rip the stitches out when you're hammered.  :
> .....



You would, of course, not be too surprised to know that I've already done that...


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## armyvern (20 Jan 2008)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> You would, of course, not be too surprised to know that I've already done that...



Yes indeed. We have a whole thread on the winter wedge happening here somewhere ... dress reg pictures posted by you and all IIRC.


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## brian_k (20 Jan 2008)

niceasdrhuxtable said:
			
		

> Would you really want to haul that thing around with you all day long? The wedge fits so nicely under your belt for easy storage and transit



Yeah, i'd haul around the P-cap, i prefer the looks of it to the wedge so the small effort would be worth it.


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## aesop081 (20 Jan 2008)

brian_k said:
			
		

> Yeah, i'd haul around the P-cap, i prefer the looks of it to the wedge so the small effort would be worth it.



I fly on a fairly big aircraft and the p-cap would be a serious pain in the a**


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## Disenchantedsailor (20 Jan 2008)

Can someone who has the CF Dress Instructions handy confirm this for me, the last I was told and this was few years back was that the Air Force Peak Cap was for wear only by MWO and above, this of course was about the same time the Army finally said see you later to the bleedin thing. I could be wrong this info is about 10 years old or more.  Cheers.


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## armyvern (20 Jan 2008)

ArtyNewbie said:
			
		

> Can someone who has the CF Dress Instructions handy confirm this for me, the last I was told and this was few years back was that the Air Force Peak Cap was for wear only by MWO and above, this of course was about the same time the Army finally said see you later to the bleedin thing. I could be wrong this info is about 10 years old or more.  Cheers.



Link is included in the second post on this thread.

CWOs & above -- with Ceremonial and Mess Dress.

Vern


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## Fishbone Jones (20 Jan 2008)

Anyone that has had a forage cap, for any reasonable amount of time, and wants to keep it, is a masochist or someone that doesn't wear it as much as they should. Two minutes from your car to office in the morning and another two minutes from your office to car in the evening (ok, early afternoon), is not normal wear. Spend most of the day wearing it, and you'll soon change your tune. If you really want to spend your day looking like Ralph Kramden (Google him), feel free. Most of us gave up trying to emulate Milkman Dan (you can google him too) years ago, and were more than grateful when the regs changed. But hey, I suppose there's still a little Cliff Robertson (Google) left in enough fly boys to keep the archaic piece of headgear alive ;D


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## aesop081 (20 Jan 2008)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I suppose there's still a little Cliff Robertson (Google) left in enough fly boys to keep the archaic piece of headgear alive ;D



Its alive enough that i was never issued with one. As a matter of fact, none of my coworkers have one either. I did see a Capt. in CYZX wear one a few years ago. I hear he's out now !


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## Inch (21 Jan 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Its alive enough that i was never issued with one. As a matter of fact, none of my coworkers have one either. I did see a Capt. in CYZX wear one a few years ago. I hear he's out now !



That's because you're not a CWO or above, only then are you issued one. All your officer coworkers would have been issued one, I know I was and I even exchanged it for one with the gold band when I got my Commission and promoted to 2Lt, if they no longer have it that's their own fault.


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## dimsum (21 Jan 2008)

Inch said:
			
		

> That's because you're not a CWO or above, only then are you issued one. All your officer coworkers would have been issued one, I know I was and I even exchanged it for one with the gold band when I got my Commission and promoted to 2Lt, if they no longer have it that's their own fault.



When did they stop issuing AF peaked caps?


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## Fishbone Jones (21 Jan 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Link is included in the second post on this thread.
> 
> CWOs & above -- with Ceremonial and Mess Dress.
> 
> Vern



Forage cap with Mess Kit. Please, if anyone has a picture of someone doing that, please post it. I want to see if it looks anything like Carlton the Doorman. ;D

(God is probably partial to airmen, and I'm going straight to hell  : )


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## medaid (21 Jan 2008)

benny88 said:
			
		

> I know they can't wear anything else, so does that mean a cornflake is ok with the P-cap? (Sidenote, I realize I could requisition or order the proper badges, although I don't believe I'm entitled to wear them until trained, and must stick with the tri-force.)




Yes. corn flake = okay with peak cap. It'll be quite silly for Naval personnel to walk around with no capbadge doesn't it? ;D


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## Loachman (21 Jan 2008)

airmich said:
			
		

> I haven't seen any forage caps at all recently, but maybe some of the _older _ AF guys (Loachman?  G2G?) can help out.



Because I like you so much, I will forgive your inclusion of my user name and "AF" in the same sentence - but just this once, okay?

I despise wedges, which the Army rightly declared obsolete decades ago, not too long after the shako.

I'd prefer a peaked cap over that, but a beret over either.

Or even a shako.


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## brian_k (21 Jan 2008)

Loachman said:
			
		

> I despise wedges, which the Army rightly declared obsolete decades ago, not too long after the shako.
> 
> I'd prefer a peaked cap over that, but a beret over either.




I agree, the wedge isn't the sharpest lookin item, and i'd wear a peak cap or beret over it any day, but it's nice that we have a choice.


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## Disenchantedsailor (21 Jan 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Link is included in the second post on this thread.
> 
> CWOs & above -- with Ceremonial and Mess Dress.
> 
> Vern


Thanks vern my eyeballs were a little glued shut


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## Inch (21 Jan 2008)

brian_k said:
			
		

> I agree, the wedge isn't the sharpest lookin item, and i'd wear a peak cap or beret over it any day, but it's nice that we have a choice.



It's pretty hard to screw up wearing a wedge. How many bad berets have you seen worn? There are a number of people that cannot figure out how to form one and end up looking like Chef Tony. I much prefer the wedge, it fits in my flight suit nicely and looks better than pizza head berets.


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## kj_gully (21 Jan 2008)

Slow morning for me, so I'll jump in. I believe Forage Cap refers to the old unigreen, "Forage Green" cap. I think it is actually a peak cap, or maybe peaked? As for the wedge, it needs to be worn at a jaunty angle, to look remotely good. Those who wear it down the middle, aspire to NDHQ, not flight. The wedge colour should be changed to match the flying suit, also. The blend of green ( or tan) flying suit with blue ranks and name tapes, and green heraldic and unit patch is getting too busy. maybe a green wedge with blue piping? At any rate, orange flying suit and beret all the way.


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## brian_k (21 Jan 2008)

kj_gully said:
			
		

> The wedge colour should be changed to match the flying suit, also. The blend of green ( or tan) flying suit with blue ranks and name tapes, and green heraldic and unit patch is getting too busy. maybe a green wedge with blue piping?



Even better, make a peak cap that matches the flight suit.


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## aesop081 (21 Jan 2008)

brian_k said:
			
		

> Even better, make a peak cap that matches the flight suit.



Why ?

So that i  we have one more thing to stuff into my helmet bag ?


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## brian_k (21 Jan 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Why ?



I just happen to like the peak cap, that doesnt mean anyone else has to, and yes there are times when it is inconvenient but so far it doesnt bother me that much. I havent had it to long though so that may change.


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## aesop081 (21 Jan 2008)

brian_k said:
			
		

> I just happen to like the peak cap, that doesnt mean anyone else has to,



True that theres no accounting for taste. I had one during basic training and it was a PITA and i'm glad we got rid of it then ( used to be army).



> and yes there are times when it is inconvenient but so far it doesnt bother me that much. I havent had it to long though so that may change.



I dont know where the fighter guys would put it. I dont think any of the helo guys would have a good spot for it. I sure dont have any room for it in my aircraft since it would end up getting wrecked anyways. i would say the same about transports ( minus the Airbus). So i would say that the wedge or beret would overwhelmingly be worn.


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## Delicron (21 Jan 2008)

Pardon my intrusion into the thread, but I've read the whole thing and am a little confused.  As I'm not in the RegF proper quite yet, I'm having a hard time identifying the caps of which you speak.  The only one I really recognize (through my time in Air cadets many moons ago) is the Air Force Wedge.  I've tried looking for examples of this through google and such, but it seems most articles kinda lump together the wedge, the Forage Cap, and the Peak cap as the same item.  Are these all very similar?  Because from reading this so far, there seem to be some vast differences.  Does anyone have a definitive link that can help sort this out for me?

Again, pardon for hijacking the thread.


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## armyvern (21 Jan 2008)

Wedge: worn by AF males & females 

AF beret: worn by AF males & females

Peak Cap: blue coloured cap with peak worn by AF males ranking CWO and above with Ceremonial Dress (also comes in black/white combo for the Navy guys ... all naval males can wear this item).

Bowler: blue coloured "bowler" hat worn by AF females ranking CWO and above with Ceremonial Dress (also comes in black/white combo for the Navy gals ... all naval females can wear this item).

Forage Cap: Old Service dress "peak cap" (green in colour) -- before the CF went "tri-service"


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## brian_k (21 Jan 2008)

Delicron said:
			
		

> I've tried looking for examples of this through google and such, but it seems most articles kinda lump together the wedge, the Forage Cap, and the Peak cap as the same item.  Are these all very similar?  Because from reading this so far, there seem to be some vast differences.  Does anyone have a definitive link that can help sort this out for me?



This is the  peak cap, i also referred to it as a forage cap before I was correct.


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## Delicron (21 Jan 2008)

Thanks Vern and Brian_K!   

Cleared that right up for me.  There was a little disconnect on the naming of the Forage cap and Peak Cap for me so that works nicely!


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## Blackadder1916 (21 Jan 2008)

Delicron said:
			
		

> I've tried looking for examples of this through google and such, but it seems most articles kinda lump together the wedge, the Forage Cap, and the Peak cap as the same item.  Are these all very similar?  Because from reading this so far, there seem to be some vast differences.  Does anyone have a definitive link that can help sort this out for me?



The following definitions (and the attached image) are from CFP 265 CF Dress Instructions:

*Cap*. Means a headdress without a brim all the way around, e.g., beret, wedge cap. A peaked cap has a projecting brim on the front. (casquette)

*Field Service Cap*. Means a cloth folding or “wedge cap” (see below). Originally designed for wear during field operations and training, it may now also be worn as an undress cap with full and undress uniforms. (calot [de campagne])

*Forage Cap*. Means an undress peaked cap (see “cap”) which may be worn with army full and undress uniforms. Originally designed for casual and fatigue wear in the field (“foraging”). (casquette de police)

*Hat*. Means a headdress with a brim all around the central crown. (chapeau)

*Peaked Cap*. (See “cap”).

*Service Cap*. Means a peaked cap (see “cap”) designed and coloured for wear with service dress
uniforms. (chapeau de service)

*Wedge Cap*. Means a modern field service cap (see above) designed for wear with service dress. (calot)


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## Delicron (21 Jan 2008)

Thanks again!  A great example from Dress instructions.  Would that have been available to the public originally?

That winter fur cap (RMC) looks....interesting... :-X (haven't seen a real picture of one, but that illustration makes it look hideous).

*EDIT: Looked back in the thread again and answered my own question...found the publicly available dress regs.


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## Blackadder1916 (21 Jan 2008)

And to add to the confusion.  In the RAF, the forage cap is their term for the wedge cap (as worn by a well known individual shown below) and is an optional item of kit.  In another thread some comments were made about the manner in which he was wearing this head-dress which does not seem to conform to that service's instructions.  But then the only photo of a pers wearing the item in their dress instrs does not provide a good example of correct wear (see below).  (BTW, the optional leather flying jacket as shown in the photo can be worn with aircrew dress but can not be worn while flying aircraft.)

AP 1358 Uniform Dress and Appearance Regulations for the Royal Air Force

Chapter 1 - General Instructions on Uniform Dress and Appearance 
Wearing of Head-dress
0124. When wearing uniform outdoors, on or off base, headdress is to be worn by all personnel in the following manner:
....
b. Forage Cap. The forage cap, which is an optional extra at own expense, is worn tilted to the right so that that front edge is approximately 25mm above the eyebrows and the side edge is approximately 12mm above the right ear. The material is blue/grey worsted barathea of standard styling for wg cdrs and below; for gp capts and air officers the cap is piped in minerva blue. The forage cap is never worn with CS 95.  

Chapter 6 - Aircrew Orders of Dress
...
0614. Black Leather Flying Jacket – (No 14C dress). A blue leather flying jacket of the standard approved pattern (in accordance with RAF GAI 6076) may be purchased at personal expense and worn with flying clothing, on the ground only. See Para 0615.

0615. Mixing of Uniform. Cold weather flying jackets, cold weather trousers, CS95 outer jackets and blue leather flying jackets, are only for wear with service issue flying suits. Under no circumstances are any of these items to be worn with other orders of dress e.g. No 2 Dress uniform.


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## IntlBr (21 Jan 2008)

Alllllmost picked up an old (but in remarkably good shape!) Army Forage Cap today.

I think I'm going to wait to see if I get an offer from the ROTP selection boards in early Feb.  It'd be awesome for wear with mess kit (coming and going from functions), instead of the beret.


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## TN2IC (21 Jan 2008)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> A little more respect for other elements traditions goes a long way....
> 
> "dog whistle" is a bosun call
> 
> Navy.ca Staff




All in good fun. I'm so use to being call a Pongo..  ;D


Army.ca Reader


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## benny88 (21 Jan 2008)

I have no DIN access, and those internet links to dress regs don't seem to be working for me  :-[ but are there regs for carrying the peaked cap? I seem to recall seeing it carried under the left arm, but maybe some naval personnel could help me out?


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## medaid (21 Jan 2008)

What do you mean carrying it? You carry it by putting it on your head  where it's meant to go 

But when you're not wearing it, and you're walking around with it indoors, you may put it between your left arm and your body. Forearm parallel to the ground, with your hand supporting the crown of the cap, with the brim pointing forward while being careful so that your fingers don't touch the brim as it leaves nice greasy finger prints ;D

Now, is this in the dress regs somewhere? I don't know  That's how I carry it and boy do I look sharp  >


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## benny88 (21 Jan 2008)

MedTech said:
			
		

> But when you're not wearing it, and you're walking around with it indoors,



Bah, you know that's what I meant. Thanks MedTech.


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## medaid (21 Jan 2008)

benny88 said:
			
		

> Bah, you know that's what I meant. Thanks MedTech.



Not a problem mate... but please, tell me you read this part too right?



			
				MedTech said:
			
		

> Now, is this in the dress regs somewhere? I don't know  That's how I carry it and boy do I look sharp  >



Because I just make myself look good  I don't know if I'm actually doing it right


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## I_am_John_Galt (21 Jan 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I dont know where the fighter guys would put it. I dont think any of the helo guys would have a good spot for it. I sure dont have any room for it in my aircraft since it would end up getting wrecked anyways. i would say the same about transports ( minus the Airbus). So i would say that the wedge or beret would overwhelmingly be worn.



The wedge fits nicely in the right leg pocket, but as Chuck Yeager managed to get a broom handle into the X-1, I'm sure we could figure something out.  It's not for the flightline, anyway.



			
				Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> 0614. Black Leather Flying Jacket – (No 14C dress). A blue leather flying jacket of the standard approved pattern (in accordance with RAF GAI 6076) may be purchased at personal expense and worn with flying clothing, on the ground only. See Para 0615.


The Aussies are _issued _with a sweet black leather flying jacket which, amazingly, they don't think is a fair trade for a CF Air Force Turban  ???  They also wear ballcaps anywhere on base.  8)


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## Nfld Sapper (21 Jan 2008)

benny88 said:
			
		

> I have no DIN access, and those internet links to dress regs don't seem to be working for me  :-[ but are there regs for carrying the peaked cap? I seem to recall seeing it carried under the left arm, but maybe some naval personnel could help me out?



Try looking here Useful Links for Training


----------



## medaid (21 Jan 2008)

I think the G-1 is the shiznit! If we can wear the USN Aviator G-1 jacket I would be sooo happy


----------



## niceasdrhuxtable (21 Jan 2008)

MedTech said:
			
		

> I think the G-1 is the shiznit! If we can wear the USN Aviator G-1 jacket I would be sooo happy



I think you picked the wrong element, mate.


----------



## geo (21 Jan 2008)

Forage caps on one's head is fine... forage caps in one's hand is a pain in the arse.
Tracking down YOUR forage cap in a cloak room that is full of forage caps is a monstruous headache.

Hurrah the Beret!


----------



## medaid (21 Jan 2008)

niceasdrhuxtable said:
			
		

> I think you picked the wrong element, mate.



Nope, not really mate  USN (N for Navy dude!) We just need to bring back the Fleet Air Arm!


----------



## Avro_Arrow_1976 (21 Jan 2008)

An Air Force Major was wearing a Forge cap a few weeks ago at Trenton Air Base. And yes, you can wear a corn flake, cough excuse me CF tri-service cap badge with it if that's all you have.


----------



## aesop081 (22 Jan 2008)

MedTech said:
			
		

> Nope, not really mate  USN (N for Navy dude!) We just need to bring back the Fleet Air Arm!



You need to change MOC then.......


----------



## benny88 (22 Jan 2008)

MedTech said:
			
		

> Because I just make myself look good  I don't know if I'm actually doing it right



Haha, seen. But maybe if I look good enough people will assume I know what I'm doing.



			
				NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Try looking here Useful Links for Training


Thanks Sapper, cheers.


----------



## medaid (22 Jan 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> You need to change MOC then.......



When FAA returns I will... if not I shall stick to my modified 10year plan. If THAT doesn't work... well I guess I'll have to stick with this MOC 



			
				benny88 said:
			
		

> Haha, seen. But maybe if I look good enough people will assume I know what I'm doing.



Hahahaha  image is everything.


----------



## I_am_John_Galt (22 Jan 2008)

MedTech said:
			
		

> When FAA returns I will...



You might be waiting a *really* long time: AFAIK, the "Fleet Air Arm" is specific to the UK, in Canada  the term was purposefully avoided in favour of just  "Naval Aviation" (although it may have been used unofficially by some).

Back on topic ...


----------



## medaid (22 Jan 2008)

Aden_Gatling said:
			
		

> You might be waiting a *really* long time: AFAIK, the "Fleet Air Arm" is specific to the UK, in Canada  the term was purposefully avoided in favour of just  "Naval Aviation" (although it may have been used unofficially by some).
> 
> Back on topic ...



and hence I said I'll stick with my modified 10year plan mate ;D


----------



## benny88 (23 Jan 2008)

I'm considering forming mine to not look so "busdriverish" Could someone post a photo of one that's properly formed?


----------



## brian_k (23 Jan 2008)

I took out the plastic and used a coat hanger to give it shape


----------



## benny88 (23 Jan 2008)

;D Thanks Brian.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (24 Jan 2008)

benny88 said:
			
		

> I'm considering forming mine to not look so "busdriverish" Could someone post a photo of one that's properly formed?




A-AD-265-000/AG-001 Chapter 2 Section 1

31. CF items of clothing shall not be altered or modified, except to obtain a reasonable fit, or to convert service dress jackets to doublets as authorized in Chapter 6.


----------



## benny88 (24 Jan 2008)

What about forming berets? I see your point, but is altering peaked hats not pretty common though?


----------



## KJL (24 Jan 2008)

Reasonable fit I think are the key words there


----------



## Disenchantedsailor (30 Jan 2008)

Avro_Arrow_1976 said:
			
		

> you can wear a corn flake, cough excuse me CF tri-service cap badge with it if that's all you have.


Aww T no bitterness there


----------



## kj_gully (30 Jan 2008)

KJL said:
			
		

> Reasonable fit I think are the key words there


  I think its reasonable to modify the peak cap so your David Clark's will fit over.... ;D ;D


----------



## I_am_John_Galt (30 Jan 2008)

kj_gully said:
			
		

> I think its reasonable to modify the peak cap so your David Clark's will fit over.... ;D ;D


  ;D


----------



## Winged Wheels (7 Feb 2008)

I was just on logistik today to try and order a new peaked cap but I don't see it in my catalog anymore. I can't help but wonder if they finally did away with.


----------



## dwalter (7 Feb 2008)

There goes half my motivation to be in an air force uniform right there.


----------



## Ping Monkey (7 Feb 2008)

It appears our head-dress options are diminishing... not only was the forage cap missing from my catalogue, but so was my turban!!


----------



## Winged Wheels (7 Feb 2008)

duffman said:
			
		

> ... not only was the forage cap missing from my catalogue, but so was my turban!!



Mine too. Shame, I always liked entertaining the notion that could become a Sikh if I so desired.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (7 Feb 2008)

Turban is gone form mine too. But I could order a black/scarlet/maroon beret if I wanted too.  ;D


----------



## Eye In The Sky (7 Feb 2008)

Well, I bet if you counted how many turbans and Service Caps were ordered in relation to the total # of CF mbr's that would be authorized to wear the things...there would be a small...difference??   ;D

So in the end, those items being unavailable is really just doing the best thing for Sam and Susie Taxpayer, our bosses


----------



## benny88 (7 Feb 2008)

I just ordered a service cap last month  ??? Guess I got it just in time. I heard they did the math and saw that a few hundred turbans had been ordered and about 100 sikhs had enlisted and got all pissed off and took it off the website, but thats just a rumour. Perhaps ArmyVern can shed some light?


----------



## Eye In The Sky (7 Feb 2008)

the removal of the service cap/forage cap/'pick a name' cap is probably based on rank.  I am not sure and would have to check CFP265 but I don't think the Air Force ranks below CWO are authorized to even wear the bugger.

I haven't seen one of those on a Zoomie for years now.   ;D


----------



## Ping Monkey (7 Feb 2008)

> I am not sure and would have to check CFP265 but I don't think the Air Force ranks below CWO are authorized to even wear the bugger.



Yeah, I know for a fact that's the policy on the AF forage cap.  Just as well... one less thing to pack/carry around on deployments.

I went through two of them when I was in the Navy... the white top turns yellowy-brown in no time.  I now use one as a spittoon (or want to anyway), and let my kids play with the other one.  I must remember to take it away from them before they get too attached to it and want to do something crazy like go join the Navy!


----------



## Sub_Guy (7 Feb 2008)

Duffman, if I ever see junior Duffman's in the Navy I will kick your a$$!!!     Unless they are using the Navy as a stepping stone for the AF, then its ok.


----------



## aesop081 (7 Feb 2008)

Duffman, i know for a fact you should be working right now !!!


----------



## medaid (7 Feb 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Duffman, i know for a fact you should be working right now !!!



muahahha Duffman got caught  hehehehe...


----------



## aesop081 (7 Feb 2008)

MedTech said:
			
		

> muahahha Duffman got caught  hehehehe...



Oh he was busted a while ago.....in fact i am looking at him from across the hall right now and hes still not doing anything  >


----------



## medaid (7 Feb 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Oh he was busted a while ago.....in fact i am looking at him from across the hall right now and hes still not doing anything  >



LOL... ah... the bliss of some people  you should send him a PM with the big words

I'M WATCHING


----------



## Ping Monkey (7 Feb 2008)

> Oh he was busted a while ago.....in fact i am looking at him from across the hall right now and hes still not doing anything



lol    I was wondering why CDN Aviator's been staring at me all day... it was starting to make me uncomfortable...

And, just for the record, I made that post during my lunch hour!


Anyway... if we could all get back to the subject topic...


----------



## Zoomie (7 Feb 2008)

You slackers at 407 squadron - get back to work.

Me?  I'm at home in pajama pants - it's a work day.


----------



## Jorkapp (8 Feb 2008)

AF Forage caps are still on Logistik, they just aren't available using free points. They're $30 each.

Turbans are gone all together. I would think that someone could get one through CS/QM if necessary.

Look on the upside, at least we have Belgian berets now!


----------



## geo (8 Feb 2008)

no we don't have "belgian" berets... we have belgian"ish" berets...

There is a difference.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (8 Feb 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> no we don't have "belgian" berets... we have belgian"ish" berets...
> 
> There is a difference.



Even the "Belgique" beret that was considered the best, "Codeba" is not a Belgian beret but is "Basque".


----------



## Retired AF Guy (17 Feb 2008)

Avro_Arrow_1976 said:
			
		

> An Air Force Major was wearing a Forge cap a few weeks ago at Trenton Air Base.



Interesting, when I was stationed in North Bay around 1996 or so the order came down from on-high that the air force forge cap was retired and that all Air Force personnel were to wear the wedge cap instead. I' don't know if the policy has been reversed or not but it was still in effect when I retired in 2005.


----------



## Zach15 (17 Feb 2008)

I ordered the forage cap with free points this summer, but I still don't have a cap badge on it yet.


----------



## benny88 (17 Feb 2008)

Zach check some of the posts a few pages back, theres a link for the proper cap badge.

     That being said, after finally examining my peaked cap in hopes of putting my cornflake on, I realize theres no slit as with a beret, as the seam runs right down the front. Just to confirm, I need to sew on one of those metal brackets like the one that holds the cornflake on my wedge, right? Thanks.


----------



## Disenchantedsailor (17 Feb 2008)

no it just slides on to the band that goes around the peak cap no requirement for the device on the wedge


----------



## benny88 (18 Feb 2008)

Think we need a :smashselfinforeheadwithpalm: emoticon. Thanks newbie.


----------



## PMedMoe (18 Feb 2008)

benny88 said:
			
		

> Think we need a :smashselfinforeheadwithpalm: emoticon. Thanks newbie.



Like this??


----------



## Disenchantedsailor (18 Feb 2008)

no problem, 7 years in the navy taught me that little one, I did the same bloody thing when I first got my peak cap


----------



## benny88 (18 Feb 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Like this??



Precisely


----------



## zorro (12 Mar 2008)

AEC Kapp said:
			
		

> AF Forage caps are still on Logistik, they just aren't available using free points. They're $30 each.
> 
> Turbans are gone all together. I would think that someone could get one through CS/QM if necessary.
> 
> Look on the upside, at least we have Belgian berets now!



Actually you can still order them with points, or at least you could earlier in the year. I ordered one around Aug/Sep 2007 and used only points. 

I can't remember the actual point-cost but it wasn't much. Around 30 I think.

EDIT: Woops, I meant the peak cap not the forage cap. Note to self, read the entire post next time rather than skimming.

Benny do you look bad boy with yours? HAHA.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (12 Mar 2008)

I think they changed the system so that only people who are actually authorized to wear them, can order them(as a Replacement Order)...namely CWOs and above (which would include all officers, subordinate officers to be included).


----------



## inferno (12 Mar 2008)

Negatory.

I just tried to order one about a month ago, and was told that I could get one, but I wasn't allowed to use replacement points for it. It would have to be cash.

Unless 2Lt isn't an officer rank.


----------



## PViddy (22 May 2008)

Ok good, i am not the only one wondering why the forage is only available for purchase now and not through the point system?? Would it be safe to say that they are trying to phase this item off the list of authorized head dress?   Perhaps Vern or one of the resident supply gurus might be able to provide a bit of insight ? Curious more than anything.

Thanks

PV


----------



## armyvern (22 May 2008)

I'll have to check the Air Scale of initial DEU issue tomorrow.

If it's still an initial entitlement item, then I'd imagine that one would still be entitled to replace it via their points.

I'm suspecting that it's no longer a "must have", but a nice to have "optional" piece of kit versus a "required" piece of kit ... which means that taxpayer funded points wouldn't cover it anymore.

Don't know if that's actually the case ... I'll consult the scale tomorrow, and will fire off an answer-seeking email if required. Will advise of results.


----------



## PViddy (23 May 2008)

Awesome, i knew i would get a more direct answer from here rather than e mail Logistik directly, thanks Vern.

cheers!

PV


----------



## armyvern (24 May 2008)

PViddy said:
			
		

> Awesome, i knew i would get a more direct answer from here rather than e mail Logistik directly, thanks Vern.
> 
> cheers!
> 
> PV



Sorry that I didn't actually get a chance to look it up for you yesterday, after being in and out of the office doing various courses/taskings/ranges/parades & assorted silly stuff over the past three weeks -- I actually had lots of "work" work piled up in my in basket. Go figure. Monday, I'm out with CHRO doing a CR-05 competition package up, so it'll all have to wait until Tuesday now.

I will get an answer to this one though ...


----------



## armyvern (26 May 2008)

inferno said:
			
		

> Negatory.
> 
> I just tried to order one about a month ago, and was told that I could get one, but I wasn't allowed to use replacement points for it. It would have to be cash.
> 
> Unless 2Lt isn't an officer rank.



Well ...

I've got the baselined laptop sparked up and running beside me right now. Why?? It's 0459hrs & I really have no idea why, but here goes ...

I have just downloaded the D01103CFS Basic Air Force Entitlement Scale, last updated and effective as of: *02 Jan 2008*. 

This item now reads (in the remarks column):

"*Optional item, not to be distributed on initial issue. Item est optionnel, ne pas distributer lors de la distribution initial.*"

So there you have it folks -- apparently the Air Force:
*Cap, Service Dress (Men's, Officer) *; and the
*Hat, Service Dress (Women's, Officer)*
... are now optional items. 

Ergo, you can't use your points (taxpayer funded) anymore to obtain them with as they are not "required", just "nice". Quite like Mess Kit and Regimental buttons for DEU etc -- your money now pays for them if you want them.


----------



## PViddy (26 May 2008)

Well, that was my first guess.  It makes sense to try and save some money on that item as they must be kinda expensive to produce and not a daily item of wear, but at least it's still on the scale! Thanks again Vern.


Cheers

PV


----------



## geo (26 May 2008)

Forage caps are NOT expensive.... relatively speaking
but... if you mean simply having to spend YOUR money VS Gov't money.... yes, I guess it is expensive.


----------



## PViddy (26 May 2008)

Oh no, i was simply implying that it must be expensive to physically manufacture them, having the Gov pay logistik for a cap for every member of the AF.  Seeing as we don't wear them that often i am sure that money can be better spent somwhere else.  I hope they keep the item scaled though, as i am sorta a traditionalist and history buff, and yeah! it's military fashion baby yea! I don't mind paying for optional items (albeit i already have the one and only FC that i'll ever need in my career, and the Queen footed the bill for that one  ).

Cheers

PV


----------



## tabernac (17 Jul 2009)

Well today was the RMC change of command parade, with Cdre Truelove taking over from BGen Lawson.

In the crowd there was several officers of the air variety, with at least 2 wearing forage caps. And they were RegF, not CIC.








If only both Generals on the dias were wearing them as well, but I must admit, the gold piping along the wedge does look good.


----------



## observor 69 (18 Jul 2009)

I have always found it hard to get comfortable with the wedge.
Looks awkward on many and has to be rammed on the head in strong winds.
Forage cap for dress and beret for everyday wear is my ideal.

Edited for "forage" spelling.  :-[


----------



## Good2Golf (19 Jul 2009)

Baden  Guy said:
			
		

> I have always found it hard to get comfortable with the wedge.
> Looks awkward on many and has to be rammed on the head in strong winds.
> Forage cap for dress and beret for everyday wear is my ideal.
> 
> Edited for "forage" spelling.  :-[



Just one more voice, but I agree fully!  :nod:


----------



## benny88 (20 Jul 2009)

I'm at 8 Wing and was told I could get the Forage Cap Air Ops badge at the museum. Can anyone confirm or deny that?


----------



## Good2Golf (20 Jul 2009)

What makes a forage cap hatbadge any different from a wedge or beret hatbadge?  It's more a question of cloth, wire, wire with metal eagle or all-metal -- never heard of a foragec cap-specific hatbadge.

G2G


----------



## benny88 (20 Jul 2009)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> What makes a forage cap hatbadge any different from a wedge or beret hatbadge?  It's more a question of cloth, wire, wire with metal eagle or all-metal -- never heard of a foragec cap-specific hatbadge.
> 
> G2G



Oh. I read somewhere (somewhere unofficial, like this forum, not dress regs or anything.) that it was a larger one. You just wear a regular air ops one on yours?


----------



## Loachman (20 Jul 2009)

As G2G says, there has never been a specific badge for service dress cap.

The available types are shown on this http://joedrouin.com/af-hat.htm page. The enamelled metal type has not been available for many years.

The only one that I wear is AF.040.D. AF.040.D1 looks chintzy, and AF.040.D2 is too cheap for officers to wear.


----------



## Good2Golf (21 Jul 2009)

Benny, I have the "D" noted by Loachman on my wedge and forage cap, and wear a "D1" on my berets.  I (and perhaps others) had understood an "implicit" rule that the "D2" cloth badge was reserved for NCMs.

cheers
G2G


----------



## Loachman (21 Jul 2009)

It was, and the simulated gold (mylar) embroidered ones are Officers' badges.

I've seen too many Officers wearing the rayon-embroidered ones, regardless.

Cheap bastards.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (21 Jul 2009)

benny88 said:
			
		

> Oh. I read somewhere (somewhere unofficial, like this forum, not dress regs or anything.) that it was a larger one. You just wear a regular air ops one on yours?



This isn't something I have to worry about as a lowly oar-puller  8), but our Wing Dress Instructions (dated Aug 07), Article 5 reads as follows:

ARTICLE 5   HAT/CAP BADGES 

1.	There are presently two sizes  of air force hat badges authorized for wear by Officers and CWOs.  They shall only be worn as follows:

a.	small hat badge is to be worn with the wedge and beret; and

b.	large hat badge is to be worn with the Service hat onlv.

2.	Metallic embroidered badges to be worn by Officers and CWOs only.
---------------------------------------------------------

Not saying its right...just saying that is in the Wing DIs.


----------



## ruckmarch (21 Jul 2009)

Just had a look on the Logistik website, and yes you CAN'T use points for the forage cap, you have to purchase it. It's currently listed for $50:20 without tax

They seem to be out of the bigger sizes 7 1/8 and up. I am not a fan of the wedge


----------



## Occam (21 Jul 2009)

Those on the DWAN can see a letter written by a former CAS, outlining his reasoning behind the "wedges for all" policy.  Seems well thought out to me.

http://vcds.mil.ca/cas/dmcs/FilesO/DMCS-20328.pdf


----------



## Loachman (21 Jul 2009)

Occam said:
			
		

> Those on the DWAN can see a letter written by a former CAS, outlining his reasoning behind the "wedges for all" policy.  Seems well thought out to me.
> 
> http://vcds.mil.ca/cas/dmcs/FilesO/DMCS-20328.pdf



The green wedge was an option for all; I saw a Major wearing an RCR cap badge on one in Lahr in 1986.

Prior to adoption of the blue uniform, we wore berets on parade in 427 Squadron and 444 Squadron, and possibly in all Tac Hel Squadrons. That option should at least have been given.

I hate wedges, as I've said before. There is good reason why the Army, in which they originated, rejected them as obsolete many, many years ago.


----------



## ruckmarch (21 Jul 2009)

Someone answer this please.....is the beret allowed with air force dress DEU without the jacket on? I ask because I saw a major wearing his short, with ribbons and a beret outdoors.

Don't get me wrong, I like wedges potatoes, but can't stand the wedge


----------



## Occam (21 Jul 2009)

ruckmarch said:
			
		

> Someone answer this please.....is the beret allowed with air force dress DEU without the jacket on? I ask because I saw a major wearing his short, with ribbons and a beret outdoors.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I like wedges potatoes, but can't stand the wedge



As far as the Air Force is concerned, berets are only for wear with CADPAT.  If you're wearing Ceremonial or Service dress (flavours of No.1 or No.3 orders), then one is supposed to be wearing the wedge.  It sounds like you're describing No.3B order of dress.


----------



## Loachman (21 Jul 2009)

Occam said:
			
		

> As far as the Air Force is concerned, berets are only for wear with CADPAT.



Flying suit.


----------



## Good2Golf (21 Jul 2009)

Occam said:
			
		

> As far as the Air Force is concerned, berets are only for wear with CADPAT.  If you're wearing Ceremonial or Service dress (flavours of No.1 or No.3 orders), then one is supposed to be wearing the wedge.  It sounds like you're describing No.3B order of dress.



This is not correct, occam.  

You can wear the beret in any order of DEU less than 1/1A, i.e. if you are only wearing ribbons (vice gongs), beret is AOK.  That from the CFP-265 and the AF CCWO.

Cheers
G2G

p.s. my official Departmental portrait is in #3 with beret.  The photographer asked if I wanted to wear my medals (vice just the ribbons) - I told him, "No thanks, that's okay," -- fashionable and dress reg compliant - sweet! 

p.p.s.  Thankfully common sense and good judgement came into effect the day that AF leadership banned the wedge from being worn with CADPAT.  :nod:


----------



## Eye In The Sky (21 Jul 2009)

Occam said:
			
		

> As far as the Air Force is concerned, berets are only for wear with CADPAT.



And flight suit/flying clothing.   ;D

Also, I thought the beret was allowed in No. 3, according to Figure 6C-2 of CFP 265 (page 340 of 378).  That figure shows a male and female in AF DEU with a wedge, but states "cap/hat, service, or beret, or wedge, or toque, or (for males) turban (note 2).

Note 2 states:  Navy members shall not wear berets or short-sleeved shirts with this order.

CFP 265. (DIN/IntraNet Link)

So, if you go by CFP 265, the beret is authorized for wear in No. 3 Service Dress (3-3E inclusive).


----------



## Occam (21 Jul 2009)

I stand corrected, but I wonder if there's an error in the 265?  I just noticed this:

5. Air Force Uniforms 
a. Except as noted in sub-paragraph b., air
force personnel shall wear the following
headdress:

(1) ceremonial, mess and service dress –
cap/hat service dress (officers and
CWOs), wedge cap, tuque, Yukon cap,
or turban

(2) service dress, less No. 3E order – as
above and beret;

(3) No. 3E order (base dress) – wedge cap,
beret, tuque, or turban; and

(4) operational dress – wedge cap, beret or
turban.

Why wouldn't the authors just omit the reference to service dress in (1), if the intent was to allow the beret with service dress?


----------



## Good2Golf (21 Jul 2009)

Occam said:
			
		

> Why wouldn't the authors just omit the reference to service dress in (1), if the intent was to allow the beret with service dress?



Because the beret used to be allowed with all orders of AF dress, until some folks who were big fans of the wedge decided to put a stop to the beret, saying it looked "too Army."  The regulations were revised to allow beret in a round about way, for all orders except 1 and variants, hence how the 265 is written currently.  

Interestingly, there was a temporary flare-up of beret with DEU 1 for a period when CANSOFCOM personnel assigned the Air DEU wore the tan beret for just under a year for all orders of DEU.  That was quickly quashed by AF dress gurus, who scurried to put a tan "flash" in place to be worn on the wedge to indicate that the member wearing the AF DEU was part of CANSOFCOM (similar to how AF DEU Military Police have a red flash on their wedges).  

[disclaimer: end factual information / start opinion]

Of course, no regulation wouldn't be a truly great regulation unless there was an organizationally-endorsed double standard for a chosen elite few, hence SAR Techs are still permitted to wear their beret with all AF DEU orders of dress, 1/1A included.  Many have found it to be an energy-sapping exercise to get an answer to the question, "Why don't the SAR Tech have an orange flash for their wedges, like the red or tan flash for MPs and CANSOF?" Some people are more special than even 'special' people.  ;D 

My 2 ¢


----------



## ruckmarch (21 Jul 2009)

Can someone please a working link intranet or internet for all the dress numbers ( # ) for all elements please


----------



## Occam (21 Jul 2009)

ruckmarch said:
			
		

> Can someone please a working link intranet or internet for all the dress numbers ( # ) for all elements please



You'll find them in the dress manual, CFP265 (DWAN link only)


----------



## Eye In The Sky (21 Jul 2009)

ruckmarch said:
			
		

> Can someone please a working link intranet or internet for all the dress numbers ( # ) for all elements please



Holy Recce Eyes Batman!  I am guessing you didn't know the CF Dress Instructions are sometimes referred as CFP 265, or just 265.  Learn something every day around here, eh?   ;D



			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> CFP 265. (DIN/IntraNet Link)


----------



## Occam (21 Jul 2009)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Holy Recce Eyes Batman!  I am guessing you didn't know the CF Dress Instructions are sometimes referred as CFP 265, or just 265.  Learn something every day around here, eh?   ;D



He did say a _working_ link....


----------



## PMedMoe (21 Jul 2009)

And here it is, in a non-DWAN link.*

Orders of dress are in Chapter 6 with pictures starting at pg 6A-4.

*_Almost_ as good as a _working_ link.


----------



## ruckmarch (22 Jul 2009)

Occam said:
			
		

> He did say a _working_ link....


Indeed...a no-duff link is no good to anyone.


----------



## AmmoTech90 (22 Jul 2009)

ruckmarch said:
			
		

> Indeed...a no-duff link is no good to anyone.



So, a real link is no good to anyone.

You do know what no-duff means right?


----------



## brian_k (22 Jul 2009)

> Indeed...a no-duff link is no good to anyone.



I agree. I hate when links actually work.


----------



## ruckmarch (23 Jul 2009)

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> So, a real link is no good to anyone.
> 
> You do know what no-duff means right?



Have you been following this thread, or you just like jumping in with both feet at the end of conversations? Go back a few posts and see the non-working link I was talking about, then come back and reitirate your comment


----------



## Roy Harding (23 Jul 2009)

ruckmarch:

"Noduff" means - for real, actual.  It's used for a variety of purposes - usually during an exercise when passing for real info - as opposed to exercise info.

This means that your statement above:


> Indeed...a no-duff link is no good to anyone.



translates to "Indeed... a working, real link is no good to anyone."

That's all everybody is driving at.  

I'm pretty sure that's not what you meant to say - and I'm also aware of how one can overlook simple errors in one's own posts - after all, you already KNOW what you meant - so you tend to skim and miss obvious errors.  Happens to all of us.


Roy


----------



## ruckmarch (23 Jul 2009)

You are right Roy....

Thx


----------



## Eye In The Sky (23 Jul 2009)

Occam said:
			
		

> He did say a _working_ link....



Okay you got me there!  I just went back and looked...can't you link something as http://ftp:// or what I had up there?   :blotto:


----------



## Good2Golf (23 Jul 2009)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Okay you got me there!  I just went back and looked...can't you link something as http://ftp:// or what I had up there?   :blotto:



EITS, it would just be ftp://.....   

Hypertext and File Transfer Protocols are separate ports on a browser so the http://ftp://... would not be a valid routing address.

Cheers
G2G


----------



## Eye In The Sky (23 Jul 2009)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> EITS, it would just be ftp://.....
> 
> Hypertext and File Transfer Protocols are separate ports on a browser so the http://ftp://... would not be a valid routing address.
> 
> ...



Um, I know, I used to be a DWAN/Baseline Net Admin?Mgr and have tons of IT coursing and experience...so I have no idea what I was up to the other day.   :blotto:


----------



## Occam (23 Jul 2009)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Okay you got me there!  I just went back and looked...can't you link something as http://ftp:// or what I had up there?   :blotto:



Nope, you can only specify one protocol when requesting a URL.  The one that gets used depends on whether you're accessing a web server or a file server.


----------



## Good2Golf (23 Jul 2009)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Um, I know, I used to be a DWAN/Baseline Net Admin?Mgr and have tons of IT coursing and experience...so I have no idea what I was up to the other day.   :blotto:



  For shame, then...no soup for you!


 ;D


----------



## DonaldMcL (12 Apr 2010)

Sorry to rehash an old topic but,

Where the hell can I get these? Logistiks only has sizes on their website for the tiny melons... there's 5 of us that need 7 3/8" ones.
Anyone know any military surplus stores or something that'd sell them?


----------



## dimsum (12 Apr 2010)

Out of curiousity, has the School CWO allowed them on parades at 1CFFTS now, or is it for something else?

PS:  Nice course patch!


----------



## DonaldMcL (12 Apr 2010)

We haven't offically "asked" yet, but it's kinda hush hush =D

Also... I've seen 3 versions of the peak cap, one without the gold braid, one with single and one with double gold braid.
Which are junior officer ones? I was under the assumption it was the single gold braid


----------



## Strike (12 Apr 2010)

BobSlob said:
			
		

> We haven't offically "asked" yet, but it's kinda hush hush =D
> 
> Also... I've seen 3 versions of the peak cap, one without the gold braid, one with single and one with double gold braid.
> Which are junior officer ones? I was under the assumption it was the single gold braid



Same as the Navy -- No gold is for OCdts, Gold band for up to Capt, Leaf is for Maj+, etc


----------



## Zoomie (13 Apr 2010)

BobSlob said:
			
		

> We haven't offically "asked" yet, but it's kinda hush hush =D



You won't have to ask - the parade order will be very specific.  It will most probably state "Dress for Officers:  Wedge and shoes."


----------



## Good2Golf (17 Apr 2010)

BobSlob said:
			
		

> Sorry to rehash an old topic but,
> 
> Where the hell can I get these? Logistiks only has sizes on their website for the tiny melons... there's 5 of us that need 7 3/8" ones.
> Anyone know any military surplus stores or something that'd sell them?



I have a 50-mission Jr.Offr FC I could send your way, but it's a 7 1/8...(it's a big 7 1/8...i.e. old style, before the messed up Logistek sizes came on board...   )


----------



## benny88 (17 Apr 2010)

Can the braid be put on an existing cap? Or do you need a new cap at 2Lt and Maj?


----------



## medaid (17 Apr 2010)

New cap.


----------



## Good2Golf (17 Apr 2010)

MedTech said:
			
		

> New cap.



Indeed...or, un-stitch the original visor  from the hat and hand stitch in the new up-ranked visor.  Forage caps cost $$$ (can't use your Logistik point) so make sure you get the size right if you choose the easier "buy me now" option.

Cheers
G2G


----------



## Taptrick (27 Apr 2010)

> Forage caps cost $$$ (can't use your Logistik point)



The SERVICE caps (which is the proper term) only cost 31$ on Logistik Unicorp, I don't think that is "$$$", it more of a "$"  

Here's some good news for people with a head larger than 7-3/4 or smaller than 6-3/8, have your service cap custom made!  William Scully Ltd. is a uniform manufacturer that has been supplying uniforms to the canadian military since the Boers War!  The were one of the official providers before Logistik Unicorp and still supply specialty items (specific ceremonial dresses, headgears, badges, swords, feathers, and so on...).  A custom made Service Cap is 47,95$ and the hand-embroided Air Ops cap badge is 14,50$.  If you are promoted to junior officer or senior officer (or general officer), you can have your cap repeaked for 35,95$ (including the price of the new peak...).

They can pretty much do whatever you ask for if you are willing to pay, I know someone who's service cap features a genuine leather peak (which is regulatory since it's the way they were made before plastic. Beeing an official supplier, they know all the regulations anyway so they'll tell you what you can or can't have)

Anyway, check it out here: http://www.williamscully.ca/!
I would really recommend going for a visit if you're in Montreal... this place is a real museum!


----------



## armyvern (27 Apr 2010)

Taptrick said:
			
		

> The SERVICE caps (which is the proper term) only cost 31$ on Logistik Unicorp, I don't think that is "$$$", it more of a "$"
> 
> Here's some good news for people with a head larger than 7-3/4 or smaller than 6-3/8, have your service cap custom made!  William Scully Ltd. is a uniform manufacturer that has been supplying uniforms to the canadian military since the Boers War!  The were one of the official providers before Logistik Unicorp and still supply specialty items (specific ceremonial dresses, headgears, badges, swords, feathers, and so on...).  A custom made Service Cap is 47,95$ and the hand-embroided Air Ops cap badge is 14,50$.  If you are promoted to junior officer or senior officer (or general officer), you can have your cap repeaked for 35,95$ (including the price of the new peak...).
> 
> ...



They're only known as "service" caps to those with no/little TI.  

Officially, they are:

Cap, "Service Dress". 

Don't forget the "dress" because that is the part that the word "service" goes with - implying our "Service Dress" or "DEU".

Even better news: If your head is larger than 7-3/4 or smaller than 6-3/8  -- Save your money ($47.95)!! The supply system is obligated to provide you with your initial issue of Service Dress (DEU). Clothing stores will order your initial issue on your behalf ... and will utilize the special size clothing roll to obtain any service dress items that you require custom-made or specially fitted ... using national funds and keeping your earned $ in your own pocket.

This public service announcement brought to you by Vern.
__________________________________________________________________

For those who require "custom sizes or builds" (ie: It's NOT initial issue):

Same procedure applies. Go see your clothing stores and ask them to measure you via the special size clothing roll. Clothing Stores will then obtain your special-sized or custom made item for you - Clothing will also charge you only what it costs for a "regular" sized item available to anyone "regular sized". IE: If your cap costs 31 Logistik, then it'll only cost you 31 for yours too ... even if you're a custom.

Again, save your money.


----------



## captloadie (27 Apr 2010)

Before all clothing stores personnel across the country are besieged by OCDTs and 2 LTs demanding their forage caps, can anyone answer as whether they are still on the initial issue list? I thought that although they were still authorized to wear, they were no longer being issued to Airforce personnel.


----------



## dimsum (27 Apr 2010)

captloadie said:
			
		

> Before all clothing stores personnel across the country are besieged by OCDTs and 2 LTs demanding their forage caps, can anyone answer as whether they are still on the initial issue list? *I thought that although they were still authorized to wear, they were no longer being issued to Airforce personnel.*



That is correct.  Logistik Unicorp also doesn't have it listed as one of the items you can order as a replacement through your points.


----------



## armyvern (27 Apr 2010)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> That is correct.  Logistik Unicorp also doesn't have it listed as one of the items you can order as a replacement through your points.



No, but you can buy the replacement through them. Ergo, they are the supplier of note for the CF members wishing to purchase this item.

Ergo, if you are a special size, clothing can order (via the special sized clothing roll) and you'll be charged the same as a "normal sized" individual for this item.


----------



## Good2Golf (9 May 2010)

$$$ for the service dress cap (a.k.a. forage cap to those out of diapers   ) was meant in relation to "free with points."

Cheers


----------



## dimsum (19 May 2011)

Resurrecting a necro-thread here.  It appears you can't even buy a forage cap on Logistik Unicorp anymore.  Boo.


----------



## hauger (20 May 2011)

Go figure.  Yet another move to bury the once proud forage cap.  It's really a travesty.  Luckily I "bought" one on points when I still could, although I've never had a chance to wear it with DEU's yet.


----------



## benny88 (29 May 2011)

Can Supply (specifically, 8 Wing)  restitch a new brim onto my cap with the required braiding or will I need a whole new cap? I'd like to not do the whole aftermarket thing, as I already have a perfectly good cap, and am hoping the black brim with gold braid will be available, as it should be the same as for Navy personnel.


----------



## Zoomie (29 May 2011)

I seriously doubt that the base tailor will stitch on the braid.  In all reality you won't ever be in a position to wear that cap in the AF.  All parades specifically call for Wedge.


----------



## Neill McKay (29 May 2011)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> In all reality you won't ever be in a position to wear that cap in the AF.  All parades specifically call for Wedge.



Perhaps when attending a parade on your own, as a spectator.


----------



## benny88 (30 May 2011)

N. McKay said:
			
		

> Perhaps when attending a parade on your own, as a spectator.



That's kind of what I was thinking as well. I understand that formed groups will probably never again wear it, but I like it so might ask around at Supply about a new brim.


----------



## Zoomie (30 May 2011)

N. McKay said:
			
		

> Perhaps when attending a parade on your own, as a spectator.



Most parades will also dictate the dress of any CF spectators.


----------



## Loachman (30 May 2011)

benny88 said:
			
		

> but I like it so might ask around at Supply about a new brim.



If you are very lucky, you might get a whole new hat, if there are any around at all.

There were never any new peaks (not "brims") available in the supply system of old, only complete hats.

I just saw a bunch of brand-new never-issued Service Caps in KW Surplus in Stratford, Ontario this past weekend. I'd guess that whatever stocks still existed have been recently dumped.


----------



## Neill McKay (30 May 2011)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> Most parades will also dictate the dress of any CF spectators.



Yes, but not necessarily to that level of detail.  (cf. naval pers who, in most orders of dress, have a choice between cap and beret.  If the rig is shown only as "3B", for example, you may see some of each in the crowd.)

As an example, I know of a major who has a forage cap and wears when attending functions as an individual -- but not at air element parades, where he conforms to the mainstream dress and wears his wedge.

(He's also an aide-de-camp to the Lieutenant Governor, so finds himself the only air force member present at a greater-than-average number of ceremonial functions and presumably gets a lot of use out of it in those circumstances.)


----------



## hippie (30 May 2011)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> Most parades will also dictate the dress of any CF spectators.



Such a party pooper, Zoomie!  While absolutely correct in that you will probably never see the Service Cap in any parade order ever (tragic), there are definitely still occasions where you can wear said cap.  ie on an individual basis.  I for one wear it when the opportunity presents itself.  That said, I typically wear my DEU's once a year (RD) when it's mandated, so it's not all that often.  THAT said, I attended a ceremony this past year over in North Vancouver (my unit parades in Sidney), where I wore the Service Cap in all it's glorious panache and brawn.


----------



## kj_gully (31 May 2011)

if you do wear it, I hope you take the plastic ring out of it and scrunch down the sides, a real crusher cap.


----------



## hauger (1 Jun 2011)

Glad to hear some people are "fighting the man" and wearing the cap whenever they are able.  What I don't fully understand is what the reasoning is behind the near-Stalinist movement to try and officially bury all traces of the once proud cap.  It seems like at every turn everything short of writing the cap out of the orders is being done to dissuade it's use.

So, anyone know what the evil reasoning behind it's death is?

(yes, I know this post is a little melodramatic, but hey, might as well make the post interesting).


----------



## Neill McKay (1 Jun 2011)

hauger said:
			
		

> So, anyone know what the evil reasoning behind it's death is?



I suppose it's because the wedge is easier to pack and store (including, e.g., in closets where there's often not room for hats).


----------



## Pusser (1 Jun 2011)

The wedge cap was actually a 19th Century army invention, often made in regimental/corps colours.  To this day, it is an optional item for many corps of the British Army adn still quite colourful.  The Air Force (which has strong army roots in the RFC) picked it up during a lull in its use by the Army.  It was largely adopted as a piece of operational headgear to be worn with flying clothing because it was easily folded and stuffed in a pocket.  The forage cap remained the proper dress headgear for officers and warrant officers for other occasions.  There is plenty of photographic evidence of this.

The wedge really came to the fore during the green era of the Canadian Air Force.  It was an optional item sold at Canex and enabled air force personnel to wear something that was uniquely air force (similar to the Navy's S7 rig of white shirt and trousers with green shoulder boards and forage cap).  Thus it rose in popularity.  This popularity carried over into the DEU.  The CAS actually issued a letter a few years ago on the subject and he pointed out that the demise of the forage cap was part of an evolutionary process and that it was removed simply because that is where we are now.  Although I don't really agree with the premise, the letter actually put forth a pretty good argument.  At least some aspects of the wedge were realized to be silly and the Air Force stopped wearing wedges with combat clothing (that looked really stupid)!  However, I also feel that the Air Force's use of the beret has gone too far.  It should be restricted to operational clothing only.  I feel a beret has no place in service dress for anyone other than the Army  :2c: (although I do wish some soldiers would keep a separate one for dress occasions instead of simply wearing the faded and stained one for everything).

Don't get me started on berets with naval service dress.  That is an absolute abomination!!!


----------



## Neill McKay (1 Jun 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Don't get me started on berets with naval service dress.  That is an absolute abomination!!!



Agreed, but, interestingly enough, it was worn on naval air stations at one time -- so it too has an air force connection in so far as the Canadian air force now encompasses the navy's air power.  However, that is a bit of a stretch.


----------



## FSTO (1 Jun 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> *Don't get me started on berets with naval service dress.  That is an absolute abomination!!!*



You got that right.


----------



## Good2Golf (1 Jun 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> ...The wedge really came to the fore during the green era of the Canadian Air Force....The CAS actually issued a letter a few years ago on the subject and he pointed out that the demise of the forage cap was part of an evolutionary process and that it was removed simply because that is where we are now.  Although I don't really agree with the premise, the letter actually put forth a pretty good argument.  At least some aspects of the wedge were realized to be silly and the Air Force stopped wearing wedges with combat clothing (that looked really stupid)!



Sad, really...the forage cap is pretty sharp when WORN CORRECTLY.



			
				Pusser said:
			
		

> However, I also feel that the *pure* Air Force's use of the beret has gone too far.  It should be restricted to operational clothing only.  I feel a beret has no place in *Air Force* service dress for anyone other than Army *Aviation*  :2c: (although I do wish some soldiers would keep a separate one for dress occasions instead of simply wearing the faded and stained one for everything).



There Pusser, I fixed that for you.  

Cheers
G2G


----------



## observor 69 (1 Jun 2011)

Agreed G2G the "Air Force" hat in your photo was great.
Unfortunately it became the forge cap of today.
Even the wedge is hard to keep on your head.
My preference, even as Air Force, has always been the beret. Practical and easy to fold.


----------



## dimsum (1 Jun 2011)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Sad, really...the forage cap is pretty sharp when WORN CORRECTLY.



That picture is gold, not only b/c of the cap but the general "Why the F are you bothering me" look.  I'm taking it and sending it to my supply/admin/office buddies.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (1 Jun 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Don't get me started on berets with naval service dress.  That is an absolute abomination!!!





			
				FSTO said:
			
		

> You got that right.



Count me in. The beret belongs onboard ships with the Naval Combat/Garrison/Work uniforms. And even then (IMHO) not for all. Personally, dress regs be damned, I always felt (and had it done in many occasions) that officers and CPO's should wear their service caps (which I have never heard anyone in the Navy refer to as "forage" ) at least in harbour or entering/leaving it. It makes for a sharper look and, most important, It lets the bridge personnel see right away who is in charge of a station or evolution, especially when wearing parkas, floater jackets or canary suits that otherwise don't let us see the ranks.

BTW, educational note here, the hat that in its current form became known as the "forage cap" in the British army (sometimes known as the Brodrick cap for the Minister of the Army who adopted it in 1905) was modeled on the caps then in use in the Royal Navy.


----------



## Good2Golf (1 Jun 2011)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> That picture is gold, not only b/c of the cap but the general "Why the F are you bothering me" look.  I'm taking it and sending it to my supply/admin/office buddies.



Dimsum, George "Buzz" Beurling, aside from knowing how to properly wear a forage cap, was Canada's leading WWII fighter ace (30+ kills).  

Also in the picture is 427 Squadron's current Honorary Colonel, then F/O Bob Middlemiss.  You can see the difference in personalities in their eyes; Col Middlemiss is an outgoing and social fellow, Beurling was a relatively quiet, lethal, wolf-like hunter.

It's a shame that current Air Force leadership doesn't see the linkage between Air Force tradition and the forage cap...  


Regards
G2G


----------



## aesop081 (1 Jun 2011)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> It's a shame that current Air Force leadership doesn't see the linkage between Air Force tradition and the forage cap...



I would much rather we be allowed to wear ballcaps with flightsuits as regular headress.


----------



## Pusser (2 Jun 2011)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Sad, really...the forage cap is pretty sharp when WORN CORRECTLY.
> 
> There Pusser, I fixed that for you.
> 
> ...



Nahh.  I stand by my original point. Berets have no place in service dress in my mind.  I'll accept it with the Army, but I'd prefer they wore forage caps as well.  :stirpot:


----------



## Pusser (2 Jun 2011)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Count me in. The beret belongs onboard ships with the Naval Combat/Garrison/Work uniforms. And even then (IMHO) not for all. Personally, dress regs be damned, I always felt (and had it done in many occasions) that officers and CPO's should wear their service caps (which I have never heard anyone in the Navy refer to as "forage" ) at least in harbour or entering/leaving it. It makes for a sharper look and, most important, It lets the bridge personnel see right away who is in charge of a station or evolution, especially when wearing parkas, floater jackets or canary suits that otherwise don't let us see the ranks.
> 
> BTW, educational note here, the hat that in its current form became known as the "forage cap" in the British army (sometimes known as the Brodrick cap for the Minister of the Army who adopted it in 1905) was modeled on the caps then in use in the Royal Navy.



i too agree with wearing service caps  with NCDs in certain situations.  The RCN did it.  We did when we wore green and the dress regs even allowed it when we first went to DEU.  I have no idea why we changed.

I called it a "forage cap" because sometimes its just easier to speak to the lowest common denominator and use the term everybody else uses, regardless of its correctness.  Considering that I've met many soldiers with as much service as I have who still can't figure out the naval rank structure (despite the fact that myself and most sailors have figured out the army/air force structure by the time the class has ended) justifies my observation.

My biggest issue with the naval service cap is that it's made of plastic.  I once submitted a proposal to the Maritime Command Clothing and Dress Committee that we go to a frame style cap with a removable cloth cover.  It was rejected because they thought it was unnecessary?  Obviously those folks have never worn one on a hot summer day.  A cloth cover would be much more comfortable and if it was removable it could be washed and/or replaced in order to keep it looking sharp.


----------



## FSTO (2 Jun 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> i too agree with wearing service caps  with NCDs in certain situations.  The RCN did it.  We did when we wore green and the dress regs even allowed it when we first went to DEU.  I have no idea why we changed.
> 
> I called it a "forage cap" because sometimes its just easier to speak to the lowest common denominator and use the term everybody else uses, regardless of its correctness.  Considering that I've met many soldiers with as much service as I have who still can't figure out the naval rank structure (despite the fact that myself and most sailors have figured out the army/air force structure by the time the class has ended) justifies my observation.
> 
> My biggest issue with the naval service cap is that it's made of plastic.  I once submitted a proposal to the Maritime Command Clothing and Dress Committee that we go to a frame style cap with a removable cloth cover.  It was rejected because they thought it was unnecessary?  Obviously those folks have never worn one on a hot summer day.  A cloth cover would be much more comfortable and if it was removable it could be washed and/or replaced in order to keep it looking sharp.



Once again I agree with you. In my personnal opinion there are too many chiefs on the Clothing and Dress Committee and many of them have no clue as to fashion sense :stirpot:


----------



## Neill McKay (2 Jun 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> I once submitted a proposal to the Maritime Command Clothing and Dress Committee that we go to a frame style cap with a removable cloth cover.  It was rejected because they thought it was unnecessary?  Obviously those folks have never worn one on a hot summer day.



Yes, I saw one of these belonging to a USN officer in a cloakroom once.  It made ours look like a fireman's helmet in comparison.


----------



## medicineman (2 Jun 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Nahh.  I stand by my original point. Berets have no place in service dress in my mind.  I'll accept it with the Army, but I'd prefer they wore forage caps as well.  :stirpot:



I'm very glad I don't have to wear my forage cap anymore - I DESPISED (and still DESPISE) it...come to think of it, I think I accidentally on purpose disposed of that thing.  And if for some silly reason I decide to switch out to Salt and Peppers, I'll continue to DESPISE it, especially now that there is extra maintenance with the thing compared to the green one.

Spleen smaller.

MM


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Jun 2011)

My only concern with the Air Force having a 'forage cap' is the dress control they would have on it. Unless it was made of some unalterable shape, I suspect many would start looking like overdone 40 mission hats in very short order, whether worn by aircrew or not.


----------



## observor 69 (2 Jun 2011)

As I remember the base CWO had no problem pointing out the error of our ways.


----------



## benny88 (9 Jun 2011)

Getting a new brim, stitching on the brim, or a new cap was a no-go at Supply. Guess they really are trying to stamp them out. Anyone with a spare Jr. Officer one lying around, I'd be happy to take it off your hands.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (9 Jun 2011)

benny88 said:
			
		

> Getting a new brim, stitching on the brim, or a new cap was a no-go at Supply. Guess they really are trying to stamp them out. Anyone with a spare Jr. Officer one lying around, I'd be happy to take it off your hands.



Here's a suggestion.  Try the original manufacturer - okay, the tag within your current hat may simply say "Logistik", but it may be likely that it was built by William Scully Ltd.  They are probably still the leading manufacturer of uniform hats in Canada.

Years ago, my immediate boss did not like the "foam top" service dress cap that he was issued when promoted to major; he much preferred the look of his older style CF green forage cap.  He solved the problem by having Scully refurbish his existing cap and changing the braid.  They may still provide that service, but it may not be cheap.  However, since you currently have (I assume) an unadorned brim, it might not be much to affix junior officer braid.  They might also have unsold caps.


----------



## Privateer (9 Jun 2011)

"Repeaking" at William Scully sounds like what you are looking for: http://williamscully.ca/gallery2/v/Products/Repeaking/


----------



## benny88 (9 Jun 2011)

Good advice. Thanks guys.


----------



## benny88 (18 Aug 2011)

Got my forage cap returned from William Scully with the Jr. Officer peak sewn on the other day, looks great! Got it the same day we were rebranded the RCAF, coincidence?  

I fear it may be on it's way out completely, but I'm going to keep wearing it when I can, hopefully others get on board before we lose it for good.


----------



## biggs (26 Aug 2011)

I was toying with the idea of getting one.  One of the guys at my squadron has it and wore it at our change of command parade.  He was the MC, which is probably the only way he got away with it.  He said he got it off eBay from someone who'd bought up a bunch from Logistik when they still offered them.

Think I could get a brand new one from Scully's?


----------



## benny88 (26 Aug 2011)

biggs said:
			
		

> Think I could get a brand new one from Scully's?



Yup.


http://williamscully.ca/gallery2/v/Products/caps+and+headwear/3-5000_Canadian_Forces_Air_001.jpg.html


----------



## Zoomie (26 Aug 2011)

biggs said:
			
		

> Think I could get a brand new one from Scully's?



What size is your head - I'll grab my junior officer hat from my kids dress up box and sell it to you.


----------



## benny88 (28 Aug 2011)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> What size is your head - I'll grab my junior officer hat from my kids dress up box and sell it to you.





			
				benny88 said:
			
		

> Anyone with a spare Jr. Officer one lying around, I'd be happy to take it off your hands.



Where were you a few weeks ago?!


----------



## Fishbone Jones (28 Aug 2011)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> What size is your head - I'll grab my junior officer hat from my kids dress up box and sell it to you.



That'd be the ticket! It should have that 40 mission look built right in by now ;D


----------



## PViddy (19 Sep 2011)

I was just, very firmly, informed by my CofC that the forage cap is now history at a conference i was at on the weekend: not to be worn any longer at any occasion.  Indeed, it doesn't seem to appear in the newset version of the dress regs...RIP AF tradition! now...bring on the Yukon!  

PV


----------



## DaHonga (2 Nov 2011)

PViddy said:
			
		

> I was just, very firmly, informed by my CofC that the forage cap is now history at a conference i was at on the weekend: not to be worn any longer at any occasion.  Indeed, it doesn't seem to appear in the newset version of the dress regs...RIP AF tradition! now...bring on the Yukon!
> 
> PV



Any updates on this in terms of regs?

Do you think it'll be ok to wear this for Remembrance Day?


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## Occam (2 Nov 2011)

Sure looks like it's still mentioned in the CF Dress Instructions, Change 6, Chap 6 Section 1 para 5 a (1).


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## PViddy (2 Nov 2011)

I know this sounds..not quite right but the dress regs that are posted on the Army site are not the latest version.

The latest is: (copy and paste) "(Supersedes A-AD-265-000/AG-001 dated 2001-06-15)" and is dated 2011-06-01.

The Forage Cap has been removed from the dress regs.  Someone with DWAN access can confirm this i'm sure.

cheers,

PV


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## PViddy (2 Nov 2011)

...For Airforce personnel of course! 

PV


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## Occam (2 Nov 2011)

Well, imagine that.  A-AD-265-000/AG-001 is no more.

They've actually renamed it to A-*DH*-265-000/AG-001, dated 2011-03-01 (original).

No wonder nobody knows about it, they renamed the bloody pub.

The cap has indeed been removed from the new version.  Only wedge cap, tuque, Yukon cap, or turban are allowed now with ceremonial, mess and service dress.


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## PMedMoe (2 Nov 2011)

And, of course, the link at the CMP website is dead.   :


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## RangerRay (2 Nov 2011)

That's too bad.  The forage cap would look much better with No. 1, 1A, 1C and 1D than berets or wedges.

My  :2c:


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## Occam (2 Nov 2011)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> And, of course, the link at the CMP website is dead.   :



Of course!

You can get it at the E-publications depot - http://publications.mil.ca/pod/pubs/pubSearch.jsp (DWAN only) and put in the NDID number.


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## PMedMoe (2 Nov 2011)

Thanks!


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## Occam (2 Nov 2011)

You're welcome!

Just did some quick checking - someone seriously dropped the ball about publicizing a new version/renaming of the Dress Instructions.

An 11 Oct MARLANTGEN (issued by the BCPO) referenced the old A-AD-265.

CANFORGEN 169/11 from 15 Sep (issued by CANADA COM) referenced the old A-AD-265.

CANFORGEN 096/11 from 24 May (issued by CMP) referenced the old A-AD-265.

Even a DWAN search for "a-dh-265-000/ag-001" only returns a few relevant hits.

Can't fault anyone for being out of dress if the higher-ups can't be bothered to make it known that there are new instructions out there...


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## ekpiper (2 Nov 2011)

As someone who still hasn't been able to get access to a DWAN account, is it possible for anyone to PM me and arrange an e-mail copy so that I may host it for others?  It would be nice to get something a touch more recent than my Mod 3 + 4 ,5, and 6 PDFs.


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## Privateer (2 Nov 2011)

Obviously time to go to the new furry-and-fun Yukon cap!


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## PViddy (2 Nov 2011)

@EKpiper

I can send when i get home.

Cheers

PV


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## PViddy (2 Nov 2011)

> That's too bad.  The forage cap would look much better with No. 1, 1A, 1C and 1D than berets or wedges.
> 
> My  :2c:



Agreed.  I always enjoyed wearing the forage for the most formal of parades.  But, i think they cost around $ 50.00 a piece, so i can see the logic.

PV


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## ekpiper (2 Nov 2011)

@ PViddy,

Thank you!


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