# Military can absorb Tory recruit promises if there is money: Hiller



## Armymatters (31 Jan 2006)

http://www.mytelus.com/news/article.do?pageID=canada_home&articleID=2157653


> Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006
> 
> Military can absorb recruits promised by Tories if there's money: Hillier
> 
> ...



Thoughts? Comments? Hiller is definetely optimistic about absorbing the promised troops.


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## Docherty (31 Jan 2006)

More Soldiers is great, but we can't drop the standards for recruiting to fulfill the quota.


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## Sig_Des (31 Jan 2006)

Sounds like the answer to everything else that's ever promised in Campaigns or speeches by the politicos.

Politicians say we will do this.

DND says, that's a great idea...make the funds available, and we'll implement and produce.

Will it happen? Watch and shoot



			
				Docherty said:
			
		

> More Soldiers is great, but we can't drop the standards for recruiting to fulfill the quota.



Agreed


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## Scoobie Newbie (31 Jan 2006)

and the time frame for this is what?


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## geo (31 Jan 2006)

As things stand right now, areas are short of $ and have cut back $ to the Reserve and Regular formations to meet the shortfall. 
Reservist have had training cancelled - how are you supposed to maintain interest when you suddenly tell em to stop and come back in a month or two. Retention is going to take a pounding.
Reg exercises being trimmed back.... cheez!

Now we're talking about enrolling 13000 Regs AND 10000 Res?
don't see where the financial support is going to come from....
Harper is talking about reduced Cap Gains, Reduced GST, increased transfer payments to the provinces & the taxpayers (health & education)... how's this going to work?

Unless your name is Merlin or Rumplestilskin - can't see these programs moving forward with any great speed.


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## Armymedic (31 Jan 2006)

Put me in, Coach, I'll help train them.

BMQ, SQ, QL 3, I don't care, where do you want me to help?


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## watson (31 Jan 2006)

Well come train me because 40 other troops and myself have been waiting for SQ for about a month and our course doesn't start for another 2 months. So maybe we should concentrate on the 5000 that are not trained yet before we start trying to jam another 13000 in with us...


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## ERIK2RCR (31 Jan 2006)

23000 more people to stand idle monday thru friday except for the odd ex that gets cancelled or scaled down at the last minuit. It's fine to add the numbers to bring the ranks up, but are they going to raise the budget for units? Training dosen't end with BMQ SQ and then your trade training. I just can't see where the money will come from long term.


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## RCD (31 Jan 2006)

Get the equipment first. Then the recruit's will followed


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## geo (31 Jan 2006)

Get a plan,
get the money,
get troops and equipment

Having one without the other is just wasting everyone's time
and just pissin in the wind


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## Armymedic (31 Jan 2006)

RECON-MAN said:
			
		

> Get the equipment first. Then the recruit's will followed



Wrong...

All the kit in the world is useless without the troops to use it. Infact right now we have more trucks, rifles etc then people, thanks to deployments.
For now, lets get the troops cause we need them, and that need is right now. And while that process is working and building our strength, get the kit.



			
				geo said:
			
		

> Having one without the other is just wasting everyone's time
> and just pissin in the wind


Not wrong,
Sounds like they got a plan...now show us the money.


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## geo (31 Jan 2006)

more trucks than people to use em?
uhhh..... where?
areas have developed a system where they rotate their vehicle pools from unit to unit - that doesn't sound like we have more than we need.... I mean - really need.


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## ERIK2RCR (31 Jan 2006)

And what we do have for vehicles are sitting in a compound with a drip pan full of various fluids underneath it. There are too many shortfalls already, and throwing troops at problems dosen't fix all of them


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## Scoobie Newbie (31 Jan 2006)

Well Col Barr seems to feel there are plenty of troops to fill the bill of this new regiment.  Of course there is no mention of how or if it will undermine the current regiments.


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## ERIK2RCR (31 Jan 2006)

We've been told that for the first year, CSOR will be hand picking it's training and admin staff,(we've lost a few key people already, and after that candidates will have to apply much in the same fassion to JTF-2 selection. It sounds like they're going with a purely volunteer approach to filling out the majority of their ranks.


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## Armymedic (31 Jan 2006)

geo said:
			
		

> more trucks than people to use em?
> uhhh..... where?
> areas have developed a system where they rotate their vehicle pools from unit to unit - that doesn't sound like we have more than we need.... I mean - really need.



I am not sure what its like in Valcartier, but come to Pet. There are several units here who have more vehs then people.
Possibly that is a result of deployments, but more then likely its because most of the units are underborne.

As a result of the CSOR, 3 RCR will have only 2 rifle companies of 2 platoons each....yep, lots of people to go around.


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## Scoobie Newbie (31 Jan 2006)

"As a result of the CSOR, 3 RCR will have only 2 rifle companies of 2 platoons each....yep, lots of people to go around."

And that's only cause their original tasking was taken away.  I see his point that there are plenty of highly fit and motivated troops out there that would love to apply but if they took everyone that passed the other units would be severly devistated as we are all undermanned as it is.


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## geo (31 Jan 2006)

AM
as CSOR stands up and fills out, they're going to be a lookin for rolling stock would be my guess. This managed readiness thing is being applied on bases across the country. Valcatraz can't be the only place around where vehicles are scarce.


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## TCBF (31 Jan 2006)

Let's take some of the money and institute MANDATORY psychological testing for ALL entrants.  Ten more psycopaths and we won't have an Army.

Tom


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## KevinB (1 Feb 2006)

TCBF said:
			
		

> Let's take some of the money and institute MANDATORY psychological testing for ALL entrants.  Ten more psycopaths and we won't have an Army.
> 
> Tom



I'm out now - so they have room for one more  ;D


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## STONEY (1 Feb 2006)

I believe it can be done. I originally joined during the great cold war expansion and found myself in recruit school a mere 5 weeks after walking into the recruiting center. The place was bursting at the seams and all the newer barracks were full so my class was shuffled off to some old wartime H-huts with long open dorms that had not been used for many years . We were there for 18 weeks and they graduated a class of approx 60 every week and on a few occasions 2 classes. All classes had their own class WO & MWO plus all other instructers in the school were at least SGT. level.

Fast forward to today , a couple of my co-workers had sons trying to get into infantry they waited around for 8 months after walking into recruiting centre before being called to go to basic and other trades have to wait a lot longer. So it would appear the porcess has slowed up a lot, maybe the infastructure isn't there anymore. But unless the military has changed a lot,  i think if the money in made available and Hillier say do it , it'll get done somehow.


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## Scott57 (1 Feb 2006)

STONEY said:
			
		

> Fast forward to today , a couple of my co-workers had sons trying to get into infantry they waited around for 8 months after walking into recruiting centre before being called to go to basic and other trades have to wait a lot longer. So it would appear the porcess has slowed up a lot, maybe the infastructure isn't there anymore. But unless the military has changed a lot,  i think if the money in made available and Hillier say do it , it'll get done somehow.


 STONEY: agree totally. I was in Cornwallis 4 weeks after stepping into the Recruiting Office in Bathurst NB.The The infrastrucure both at the schools and recruiting centres (and process) has be fixed after the reckless chnages and downsizing that occurred in the 90's. I'm still not confident this is being looked at in the manner that it should. The fact that the schools are still seeking incremental staff (a product of the downsizing) and the continual long recruiting process can attest to that.  

But, I agree with the CDS. It can be achieved if the resources and money are provided. 



> Valcatraz can't be the only place around where vehicles are scarce.


 GEO: your correct. It exists in Petawawa as well. It may not be all Units, however, the two that I served with recently had major shortages (B Vehs).


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## George Wallace (1 Feb 2006)

STONEY

In your day there were two Recruit Training Centers; one in Cornwallis and one in St Jean.  Today we only have the one in St Jean.  The CF, due to FRP and other cutbacks, no longer has a large Instructor base to draw from so qualified Instructors are a lot fewer.  With recent events, Borden has been opened up to act as an overflow training facility for St Jean, but we still have the problem of lack of Instructors.  Compound the problem with those currently from the '80s and 90's reaching end of Contract or CRA and the Instructor Pool will stay at a bare minimum.  That problem may not be properly rectified until well after the CF has its 13,000 +/- new recruits trained and the Instructor Pool then having more members to draw from.


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## DG-41 (1 Feb 2006)

Man... this sure gets a not-quite-as-young-as-he once-was man's thoughts drifting towards operational transfer....

What's the situation like in the RCD these days?

DG


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## geo (1 Feb 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> STONEY
> In your day there were two Recruit Training Centers; one in Cornwallis and one in St Jean.  Today we only have the one in St Jean.  The CF, due to FRP and other cutbacks, no longer has a large Instructor base to draw from so qualified Instructors are a lot fewer.  With recent events, Borden has been opened up to act as an overflow training facility for St Jean, but we still have the problem of lack of Instructors.  Compound the problem with those currently from the '80s and 90's reaching end of Contract or CRA and the Instructor Pool will stay at a bare minimum.  That problem may not be properly rectified until well after the CF has its 13,000 +/- new recruits trained and the Instructor Pool then having more members to draw from.


George,
when you say that we're down to one Recruit school - you're right & wrong at the same time. They have been using Work Point Barracks for BMQ training - If the facilities are there - they can continue to use em.... OR Cornwallis has become a peacekeeping centre - who says it can't be converted back to what it once was...... OR there's always CFB Goose Bay that NATO has chosen to walk away from.... 
so facilities.... we've got!!

with respect to the instructors - given that a lot of senior individuals are going to retire in the near future (or have recently retired) it would make a lot of sense to "make em an offer that they can't refuse". If the Gov't is serious about growing the military and willing to provide the necessary funding, am positive there are many motivated soldiers who would provide the bridge and relieve the growing pain - as long as they are not penalised for it.


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## TCBF (2 Feb 2006)

" I originally joined during the great cold war expansion and found myself in recruit school a mere 5 weeks after walking into the recruiting center. The place was bursting at the seams and all the newer barracks were full so my class was shuffled off to some old wartime H-huts with long open dorms that had not been used for many years . We were there for 18 weeks and they graduated a class of approx 60 every week and on a few occasions 2 classes. All classes had their own class WO & MWO plus all other instructers in the school were at least SGT. level."

Stoney, what CFB and what year was this?

Tom


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## Trogdor (2 Feb 2006)

Well all this attention is encouraging.  It certainly sways me more to take my military carrer to the next level and join the regs.  I've been a reservist for almost five years now and I'm really enjoying the work.  In that time I have helped get people in my personal life on the path to joining both the regs and the reserves.  I think if we do get up to the strength of 83,000 in the total CF it would be very positive for both Canada and the world.


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## Navy_Blue (2 Feb 2006)

We all seem to think there is 23000 people in Canada that think the military is a viable career.  The recruiting process as it stands now is making our most promising people wait so long they find other options.  We end up recruiting allot of people really not suited or not prepared for a life in the forces.  These people then tend to release early wasting allot of time and money.  You almost have to recruit 2/3's more people than you need to account for the failures and releases (not to mention nut bars, ever heard and I quote "when I was with the SAS" from a 18 year old recruit).  Thats can be a big waste too.   

The other issue is that a discusting amount of people don't realize we have a military.  I don't know how many times I've told people I'm in the navy and got the response "we have a navy?"  I think this comes from almost 15 years of the media's unrelenting criticism of the Canadian Forces.  Mind you the government made criticism very easy.  Never the less I wouldn't buy into a company that has had this much bad press and smart educated young people look at recruitment the same way.  (I don't no what this makes me??? I kinda bought into the company )



No matter what our condition is today our personnel have made the most of what they have and had an adapt and overcome mentality that is very much a trait of our forces.  We think outside the box.  I hope they can find the people they need and I hope we get the type of people we deserve.


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## The_Falcon (3 Feb 2006)

Navy_Blue said:
			
		

> We all seem to think there is 23000 people in Canada that think the military is a viable career.  The recruiting process as it stands now is making our most promising people wait so long they find other options.  We end up recruiting allot of people really not suited or not prepared for a life in the forces.  These people then tend to release early wasting allot of time and money.  You almost have to recruit 2/3's more people than you need to account for the failures and releases (not to mention nut bars, ever heard and I quote "when I was with the SAS" from a 18 year old recruit).  Thats can be a big waste too.
> 
> The other issue is that a discusting amount of people don't realize we have a military.  I don't know how many times I've told people I'm in the navy and got the response "we have a navy?"  I think this comes from almost 15 years of the media's unrelenting criticism of the Canadian Forces.  Mind you the government made criticism very easy.  Never the less I wouldn't buy into a company that has had this much bad press and smart educated young people look at recruitment the same way.  (I don't no what this makes me??? I kinda bought into the company )
> 
> ...



I think you nailed it.  Its great to sit here and speculate the hows and wheres of trying train/equip/house(regs anyways) 23000 more pers, but the reality is the CF has an image problem in the mindset of most Canadians.  To most Canadians we are "peacekeepers" and this image is what will prevent us from getting more people in the combat arms, which I presume is what the CDS is after, not more wogs, logs, and techs who tend to view the CF as a cushy job, and cringe at thought of even going out into the field.  (in all fairness, I know not all support trades have this mentality, but we all know they are out there, and more of them is the last thing we need, if we want to be more combat capable).  So before we start running around like idiots worrying about how to handle these numbers, we need to figure out how to attract them.  And for that there are other threads to discuss this in.


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## Scoobie Newbie (3 Feb 2006)

"To most Canadians we are "peacekeepers" and this image is what will prevent us from getting more people in the combat arms,"

Then lets change the image.  
As a side note I wonder if the CSOR will draw new blood.


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## matty101 (3 Feb 2006)

I'm not in yet, However the army's what I want for my life and I'll take it any way I can get it.  The new units like CSOR and (not new) Para Coy's are a source of motivation for me because the are combat orientated.  I'm fine with peace keeping, but If I wanted to be a cop I'd be a cop.  I know a lot of people will come into the recruiting offices and say they want to "JTF-2" or what ever.  But if that's what gets them in the door than maybe it's not to bad a thing.  As far as the waiting times for getting in? well I know I'll be fit as balls by the time I start my basic.  

Matty


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## Haggis (3 Feb 2006)

CFL said:
			
		

> "To most Canadians we are "peacekeepers" and this image is what will prevent us from getting more people in the combat arms,"
> 
> Then lets change the image.



There's 28 pages of good ideas here: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/2276.0.html



			
				CFL said:
			
		

> As a side note I wonder if the CSOR will draw new blood.



Only if they get better press than JTF-2.  Nobody's gonna join a unit they know nothing about.  Outside the CF very little is known about JTF-2, which is not that big an issue as they don't recruit "off the street".  IMO neither should CSOR, but some good press would allow prospective recruits to see something to strive for once in.


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## Navy_Blue (3 Feb 2006)

If you walk into a CFRC and say sign me up for JTF they should turn you around and show you the door.  Come back when your not playing war in the back yard with your friends.  Its a voluntary thing to be apart of the unit and muster into it but if your attitude is all blow things up and kill people you shouldn't be there.  Its a mind set that not everyone has.  They should be told they need the experience that only time in the regs can give.  I don't think you can direct entry into JTF anyways.


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## Scoobie Newbie (3 Feb 2006)

"but some good press would allow prospective recruits to see something to strive for once in"

My thoughts exactly.


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## rifleman (3 Feb 2006)

Just rename ourselves the Canadian Special Forces  CSF and they will come in droves... ;D


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## ERIK2RCR (15 Feb 2006)

On that note, we juat recieved word that the manning for the CSOR takes priority over manning for TF 1-07, And that anyone who wants to go will be going for selection as early as 06 April. Openings for 031's and support trades. 2RCR may look like a ghost town soon. On the bright side, lots of openings on the tour  :


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## geo (15 Feb 2006)

Gunner.... by the sounds of things, might as well rebadge 2RCR to CSOR and go thru the recruiting process to rebuild the 2nd... worse comes to worse, they can always use TF207 - which isn't tasked right now.


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## ERIK2RCR (15 Feb 2006)

They've already picked through most of 3RCR, probably going to go through every infantry batallion. Rebadging us wouldn't work......too many out of shape mechanized troops here.  ;D


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## derael (15 Feb 2006)

rifleman said:
			
		

> Just rename ourselves the Canadian Special Forces  CSF and they will come in droves... ;D



Do the special forces get to ride the "special bus"?  ???  ;D


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## rifleman (15 Feb 2006)

ha ha good one. ;D


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## Pikache (16 Feb 2006)

Well, the new figure is a big number. 
Things are going to have to change pretty fast though, like finding enough instructors to teach (ARC is always understaffed, at least what I observed at meaford) and willing to go (because people are fed up with Meaford and its chickenshit ways).
Also leaders to lead these troops after recruiting courses.

How the heck is reserves (not to mention regs) suppose to find competent leaders with sudden increase in numbers when res is having troubles keeping up leadership at present level? There's enough enthusiasic brand new cpls willing to take a shot leading a section, but that's no way to properly train newly minted privates.


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## Bobbyoreo (16 Feb 2006)

I don't think you should show someone the door if they want to get into the JTF-2. Shows they want something more then the norm. Now I think the Recruiter should be fast to point out that its going to take alot to get there and it is no easy step. I think having these small Elite units helps bring people into the forces...yes sometimes the bad people but thats why the recruiting process for these units is intense..I hope...


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