# Annual Pay Increase for 2011



## MasterInstructor (11 Dec 2011)

I only have about 2 years in, in April 2010 all CF members received a raise separate from the incentives. It was something around 2 percent, in order to compensate inflation etc. 

This year I assumed same would happen but still we are getting paid the same rates from 2010. I have found the historical rates and it seems like there was a raise almost every year since 1970s and in the past 2 decades this year is the only year where there has not been a inflation adjustment. I was wondering if anybody had any info on this topic? 

Is it possible that they will give a raise retro active to april 2011? I think something like that was done approximately 4 years ago. Any input from those with years of experience would be appreciated.


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## Pat in Halifax (12 Dec 2011)

I would remind (especially new members to the CF) people that with 10% budget cuts for all Federal Departments mandate by the Government, it is a possibility we may not see anything. Remember, believe half of what you see and less of what you hear ... especially when it comes to pay raises.


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## Grunt_031 (12 Dec 2011)

A briefing from a local commander on Friday says that DND owes 2 billion dollars back to the treasury. One billion for last year and another billion for the next 10% of budget cuts. Interesting times coming for the army. He said that everything is on the table from PLD/LDA to closing of units/bases. everything is dependent on the next budget and MND.


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## OldSolduer (12 Dec 2011)

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> I would remind (especially new members to the CF) people that with 10% budget cuts for all Federal Departments mandate by the Government, it is a possibility we may not see anything. Remember, believe half of what you see and less of what you hear ... especially when it comes to pay raises.



Generally the cuts aren't made on the backs of pay raises for the troops, however if other governement departments aren't giving the public servants raises - then we likely won't see any either.


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## Grapeshot (12 Dec 2011)

Pay and benefits are usually tied in with those in the Public Service. However, there is a something called the 'military factor' that adds approximately 7.5% to CF pay over what a comparable civil servant would earn. The background and FAQs can be found at the following link:

 http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/pay-sol/faq/index-eng.asp

That being said, most PS unions have negotiated raises in the 1.5-1.75% range for the 2011-13 timeframe and in return gave up their future severance pay at the rate of 1 week per year of service. 

I would expect that the CF will see a similar raise which has been made retroactive in the past. However, there was a stretch in the 90s where we saw pay incentives and raises frozen for about 5 years at a time when many Privates were living below the povery line.  Afterwards we did recieve a good raise of somewhere around 7%.

Given the state of affairs of the Government today, I would concur with some others who've noted that everything is on the table and that DND along with most other departments will have to cough up $$$$$$ to fight the defecit. Given that personnel costs account for over 55% of DND's budget, this area will be closely examined.


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## CountDC (12 Dec 2011)

Considering the PS did get the 1.5% and the CFM already has the 1.5% built into it my guess is that it is just waiting for all the T's to be crossed and I's to be dotted.   It is normal for our increases to get screwed up in election years so not worried about it, after all they do have the PS/CF ratio to maintain so will have to cough something up eventually........unless they change the ratio.    Shhhhhhh.


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## dapaterson (12 Dec 2011)

There is an organization in NDHQ called the Director of Pay Policy Development (DPPD, part of the Director General Compensation and Benefits) that deals with such issues.

Any increase to CF pay rates and any changes to benefits are done by this group, working with the Treasury Board to set rates and policies.


Delays in announcing a pay increase are not connected to the Strategic Review (SR) or the Deficit Reduction Action Plan (DRAP).  The last Federal Budget indicated that DND/CF had identified $525M in savings for fiscal 12/13, and $1B per year beyond that.  If you go to http://www.budget.gc.ca/2011/plan/anx1-eng.html you can see where that $1B per year in savings will come from.

The Deficit Reduction Action Plan is still underway, with no decisions yet.  That is where each department has identified 5% and 10% reductions; for DND/CF, those would represent about $500M or $1B in addition to the $1B announced in budget 2011.  I expect those reductions will be announced in the next Federal Budget.


Back on topic here:  It is not unusual for pay increases to be announced late; it is not unusual for them to be retroactive.  There is a great deal of work involved in adjusting the pay scales, both internal to DND and external.  Getting everyone to do everything can be like herding cats.  It will be done when it's done; it will then be announced, and then we can start new threads about "Why hasn't my retro pay shown up yet?" and "When will we get the 2012 pay increase?"; in other words, the circle of life will continue.


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## Occam (12 Dec 2011)

Add to that the fact that there are still several Public Service (PS) unions who have not signed off new collective agreements (2 tables of PSAC,  the CS community in PIPSC, and the EL community in IBEW, off the top of my head), there is still lots of room for the benchmark PS wage to go up....or down.


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## wesleyd (13 Dec 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Generally the cuts aren't made on the backs of pay raises for the troops, however if other governement departments aren't giving the public servants raises - then we likely won't see any either.



What about the late 80's and 90's. Pay incentives frozen no pay raises.


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## Good2Golf (14 Dec 2011)

wesleyd said:
			
		

> Jim Seggie said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Technically, 'frozen' does not equal 'cut'.   


The cycle that dapaterson noted above averages 12-18 months behind the PS, so we shouldn't start panicking quite yet.


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## teenwolf (29 Dec 2011)

It's hard to say. On the one side, it's possible that all the budget cuts could impact a pay increase for us. On the other side, some PS folks have seen a cost of living pay increase, which means we should see one eventually. I'm not banking on it though. I wouldn't be highly surprised if we didn't see a raise for 2011. The same holds true for a reduction in PLD.


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## Occam (29 Dec 2011)

teenwolf said:
			
		

> It's hard to say. On the one side, it's possible that all the budget cuts could impact a pay increase for us. On the other side, some PS folks have seen a cost of living pay increase, which means we should see one eventually. I'm not banking on it though. I wouldn't be highly surprised if we didn't see a raise for 2011. The same holds true for a reduction in PLD.



PS folks don't see "cost of living pay increases".  Their unions negotiate new collective agreements when the old ones expire, then the benchmark PS raise is determined in order to figure out what may be offered to the CF in the form of an economic adjustment.  None of the PS unions I mentioned earlier have ratified new agreements yet...


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## teenwolf (29 Dec 2011)

Occam said:
			
		

> PS folks don't see "cost of living pay increases".  Their unions negotiate new collective agreements when the old ones expire, then the benchmark PS raise is determined in order to figure out what may be offered to the CF in the form of an economic adjustment.  None of the PS unions I mentioned earlier have ratified new agreements yet...



You're arguing semantics. I've been in unions before, worked towards new collective agreements, and understand how they work. The pay tables increase to reflect inflation (typically not on par though). A primary argument by unions for the increase is inflation. If you don't want to refer to that as a cost of living increase, then that's your choice. There are unions with the CG that have reached a new collective agreement; so I am told by friends in the CG. Even if there are collective agreements yet to be ratified, this doesn't mean that new higher rates haven't been finalized and will eventually become reality.


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## Fishbone Jones (29 Dec 2011)

teenwolf said:
			
		

> You're arguing semantics. I've been in unions before, worked towards new collective agreements, and understand how they work. The pay tables increase to reflect inflation (typically not on par though). A primary argument by unions for the increase is inflation. If you don't want to refer to that as a cost of living increase, then that's your choice. There are unions with the CG that have reached a new collective agreement; so I am told by friends in the CG.



That may be so, but nothing will be determined, for us, until they ALL get new ones, IIRC.


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## teenwolf (29 Dec 2011)

recceguy said:
			
		

> That may be so, but nothing will be determined, for us, until they ALL get new ones, IIRC.



I don't recall claiming differently.


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## Occam (29 Dec 2011)

teenwolf said:
			
		

> I don't recall claiming differently.



Really?



			
				teenwolf said:
			
		

> Even if there are collective agreements yet to be ratified, this doesn't mean that new higher rates haven't been finalized and will eventually become reality.



It would not be in the CF's interest to go looking to finalize an increase until all the various players have settled.  The unions I mentioned previously who have not ratified agreements yet make up a sizable portion of the PS, and are arguably some of the unions with more "leverage" for increases.


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## teenwolf (9 Jan 2012)

Occam said:
			
		

> Really?
> 
> It would not be in the CF's interest to go looking to finalize an increase until all the various players have settled.  The unions I mentioned previously who have not ratified agreements yet make up a sizable portion of the PS, and are arguably some of the unions with more "leverage" for increases.



Yes, really.

I have not said, anywhere, that the CF should go looking to finalize an increase prior to PS negotatiatons. In my original post, I stated that some PS have an increase in the works, which means we will would likely get one eventually. 

My quote that you used was in response to your comment: "None of the PS unions I mentioned earlier have ratified new agreements yet..."


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## Occam (9 Jan 2012)

teenwolf said:
			
		

> Yes, really.
> 
> I have not said, anywhere, that the CF should go looking to finalize an increase prior to PS negotatiatons. In my original post, I stated that some PS have an increase in the works, which means we will would likely get one eventually.
> 
> My quote that you used was in response to your comment: "None of the PS unions I mentioned earlier have ratified new agreements yet..."



Well, if the PS unions I mentioned have not yet ratified agreements, how can you possibly make a misleading statement such as "some PS have an increase in the works, which means we will would likely get one eventually"??

If the remaining unions who haven't settled don't fare as well in negotiations as those who have already settled, that would mean the CF would likely not get an increase since it's entirely possible the average of the PS unions' increases would be zero.

All that to say that you're simply guessing until all the unions have ratified their collective agreements.  Speculate away for all it's worth.


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## Pusser (9 Jan 2012)

Occam said:
			
		

> If the remaining unions who haven't settled don't fare as well in negotiations as those who have already settled, that would mean the CF would likely not get an increase since it's entirely possible the average of the PS unions' increases would be zero.



It's not as simple as that.  We're not paid based on any average of PS salaries.  Our pay is benchmarked against the Public Service, but a complex formula then kicks in to determine what our pay will be.  I'm leaning toward thinking that we will receive a pay raise eventually, backdated to 1 Apr 11 with another one effective 1 Apr 12.


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## Nfld Sapper (9 Jan 2012)

Or do like they did back in the early 2000's, they back dated a pay raise that went back years....


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## SeaKingTacco (9 Jan 2012)

I remember that one.  That was some sweet back pay.


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## Pusser (9 Jan 2012)

No, we won't see a pay raise like we did c. 1999.  That was a result of a re-working of the pay comparability formula.  The new formula was actually re-worked prior to the pay freeze c. 1995 when it was noticed that on average, the CF was as much as 14% behind where we were supposed to be compared to the Public Service.  However, giving the CF a 14% raise when the rest of the government was smacked with a pay freeze was seen as unpalatable and so it was applied in phases after the freeze was lifted.  It was a nice increase, but was also a one-time fix.  It should also be noted that although the federal government froze pay, some provincial governments were actually cutting pay and putting pressure on the federal government to do the same.


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## Occam (9 Jan 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> It's not as simple as that.  We're not paid based on any average of PS salaries.  Our pay is benchmarked against the Public Service, but a complex formula then kicks in to determine what our pay will be.  I'm leaning toward thinking that we will receive a pay raise eventually, backdated to 1 Apr 11 with another one effective 1 Apr 12.



Yes, I'm familiar with the process.  For anyone who is not, there's some good reading at http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/pay-sol/faq/index-eng.asp, which should explain everything that goes into the complex formula.

Normally, I would agree with you that the CF would get at least something in the line of a pay increase.  However, many of the PS unions who have ratified agreements this year have had to give up severance pay benefits (not an insignificant chunk of change), and who knows how that's going to affect the calculation.


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## dapaterson (9 Jan 2012)

Occam said:
			
		

> Yes, I'm familiar with the process.  For anyone who is not, there's some good reading at http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/pay-sol/faq/index-eng.asp, which should explain everything that goes into the complex formula.
> 
> Normally, I would agree with you that the CF would get at least something in the line of a pay increase.  However, many of the PS unions who have ratified agreements this year have had to give up severance pay benefits (not an insignificant chunk of change), and who knows how that's going to affect the calculation.



As I recall, PSAC surrendered severance for an additional 1% over two years.  Their settlement was 1.75% in the first year, 1.5% the second, and 2% in the third.

As PSAC is one of the largest public sector unions, I expect the CF increase will closely mirror the PSAC settlement.


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## CountDC (10 Jan 2012)

dang DAP , when I saw a new post by you I was hoping it was some new info on an increase.

I agree with you - I am expecting a CF increase close to the PSAC.  Doesn't hurt that the Cost Factor Manual has a 1.5% already in it. Tells me someone else is thinking the same.


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## AliG (21 Mar 2012)

With regard to Severance pay. The rumour under this mushroom is that it will no longer accrue effective this budget (1 Apr). Is that not the equivalent of a near 2% salary envelop cut? If there is a pay increase in the budget along with the freeze on severance, then in order to be effective would this pay increase need to be above this amount and CPI ???


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## Stoker (21 Mar 2012)

AliG said:
			
		

> With regard to Severance pay. The rumour under this mushroom is that it will no longer accrue effective this budget (1 Apr). Is that not the equivalent of a near 2% salary envelop cut? If there is a pay increase in the budget along with the freeze on severance, then in order to be effective would this pay increase need to be above this amount and CPI ???



Chief Clerks were briefed in Halifax that the severance is going away as of April 1st. What I suspect the government is waiting until the budget comes down until they officially announce it. Wait and see I guess.


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## krustyrl (21 Mar 2012)

Can either of you please put in "laymans terms" *accrued *in respect to severance.?  How might it affect someome ready to pull the pin.....like ME.!!


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## dapaterson (21 Mar 2012)

krustyrl said:
			
		

> Can either of you please put in "laymans terms" *accrued *in respect to severance.?  How might it affect someome ready to pull the pin.....like ME.!!



Depends on your situation.  How many years in?  Prior Res svc?  Prior Reg svc?

Everyone's situation is different.


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## krustyrl (21 Mar 2012)

PM inbound


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## Occam (21 Mar 2012)

For Reg Force, the quick and dirty calculation of severance pay on release is one week's pay for every completed year of service.  You served 26 years?  You get 6 months pay on release.  It's slightly more complicated than that but it's pretty close.  If you want the nitty gritty details see CBI 204.40.

*If* (!) they pull severance pay on 1 Apr, and you had completed 26 years of service prior to that date, then you'd have accrued 26 weeks of severance pay, which, if they copy the terms given to the Public Service unions who gave up severance, would mean you'd have the option of taking the money then or taking it when you release.  Either way, you would not accrue any more severance pay, even if you served additional full years of service.  Those joining up would not be entitled to severance pay in its current form.


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## dogger1936 (21 Mar 2012)

Do the retiring members of the forces get any benefit from not getting the severance? I.E was it traded for something? Do we get anything?


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## krustyrl (21 Mar 2012)

On behalf of all "laymans" thanks Occam.!


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## dapaterson (21 Mar 2012)

Occam said:
			
		

> For Reg Force, the quick and dirty calculation of severance pay on release is one week's pay for every completed year of service.  You served 26 years?  You get 6 months pay on release.  It's slightly more complicated than that but it's pretty close.  If you want the nitty gritty details see CBI 204.40.
> 
> *If* (!) they pull severance pay on 1 Apr, and you had completed 26 years of service prior to that date, then you'd have accrued 26 weeks of severance pay, which, if they copy the terms given to the Public Service unions who gave up severance, would mean you'd have the option of taking the money then or taking it when you release.  Either way, you would not accrue any more severance pay, even if you served additional full years of service.  Those joining up would not be entitled to severance pay in its current form.



Sounds about right.  The PS unions that gave it up did retain it for workforce adjustment situation - folks being laid off.  (No double dipping though, so if they cashed out, on getting laid off the years they alread cashed out would be removed). 

Were I a betting man I'd guess any change to the CF severance would follow the same lines... so any future FRP would give CF member severance (less what they may have already taken).


Dogger:  Assuming these stories are true, you'll get severance for your years of service up to the date it was cancelled.  The PSAC settlement got an additional 0.5% for each of two years in their pay increases; I'd guess the CF pay increases will be similar if not identical.


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## Occam (21 Mar 2012)

krustyrl said:
			
		

> On behalf of all "laymans" thanks Occam.!



You're welcome.  If you haven't already, look into a SCAN seminar.  They do an excellent job of detailing all of your benefits on release, in general terms anyways.  I just released this past Sept and I'm glad I got the opportunity to take the SCAN seminar a few times over the last 10 years just to keep up with the changes in policies.  The severance pay is great - as long as you're able to protect it from the taxman!  (Which is a topic best left to a financial planner.)


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## AliG (21 Mar 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Dogger:  Assuming these stories are true, you'll get severance for your years of service up to the date it was cancelled.  The PSAC settlement got an *additional* 0.5% for each of two years in their pay increases; I'd guess the CF pay increases will be similar if not identical.



From http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/pay-sol/faq/index-eng.asp


> In the late 70s, Treasury Board directed that the Department adopt Total Compensation (TC) analysis, which was also being developed for use in collective bargaining with the PS unions. Treasury Board wanted to ensure that the full value of the compensation and benefits made available by the employer to federal public servants was considered in negotiations. The methodology includes salary, but also evaluates benefits such as pensions, *severance pay*, acting pay, overtime and medical and dental services, as well as "time not worked", annual leave and sick leave being two examples.



This goes back to what I wrote above. Is not removing the severance pay actually a cut in the salary envelope; a cut that will probably not be covered by any "extra" increase? All I'd be asking on this is for HQ to be forthcoming on this and call it what it really is if this is it. Then again, until the Canforgen is cut it's all speculation.


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## dogger1936 (22 Mar 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Sounds about right.  The PS unions that gave it up did retain it for workforce adjustment situation - folks being laid off.  (No double dipping though, so if they cashed out, on getting laid off the years they alread cashed out would be removed).
> 
> Were I a betting man I'd guess any change to the CF severance would follow the same lines... so any future FRP would give CF member severance (less what they may have already taken).
> 
> ...



Thanks.


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## jollyjacktar (22 Mar 2012)

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Chief Clerks were briefed in Halifax that the severance is going away as of April 1st. What I suspect the government is waiting until the budget comes down until they officially announce it. Wait and see I guess.


Have also heard talk of a 2% back dated to last April to take some of the sting out.  Also hearing PLD is getting chopped in half as well.


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## Pat in Halifax (22 Mar 2012)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Have also heard talk of a 2% back dated to last April to take some of the sting out.  Also hearing PLD is getting chopped in half as well.


The chopping in half of PLD has been the rumour the last 3 or 4 Aprils. I suppose if something is rumour long enough, it will eventually come to fruition!


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## PMedMoe (22 Mar 2012)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Have also heard talk of a 2% back dated to last April to take some of the sting out.



This is what I've heard as well.



			
				jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Also hearing PLD is getting chopped in half as well.



Darn, so I'll only get $3.00 per month instead of $6.00.   :'(


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## jollyjacktar (22 Mar 2012)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Darn, so I'll only get $3.00 per month instead of $6.00.   :'(


Maybe not cut at your locale.


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## armyvern (15 May 2012)

MasterInstructor said:
			
		

> ...
> Is it possible that they will give a raise retro active to april 2011? I think something like that was done approximately 4 years ago. Any input from those with years of experience would be appreciated.



Indeed possible; in fact, it's in the bank today --- I'm going shopping.  ;D


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