# CLS:  From Arid CADPAT to Snowshoes



## The Bread Guy

> Canadian troops will soon swap one barren desert for another, as many Afghan veterans deploy to Canada’s Far North late this winter for the first major Arctic exercise after almost 10 years of fighting insurgents in South Asia, according to the new commander of the Canadian army.
> 
> About 600 infantrymen based in Quebec and Alberta will be the first to trade Afghan temperatures that can run as high as 60 C for the -40 C that are common during the winter in Canada’s North. It is part of a strategy to keep young soldiers in the army by giving them fresh challenges, said Lt.-Gen. Peter Devlin.
> 
> The move also dovetails nicely with the Conservative government’s frequently stated priority to protect the country’s northern frontiers.
> 
> “The Arctic may not seem very exciting to older guys because they have done it before, but to the vast majority of the army it will be new,” Lt-Gen. Devlin said after talking up the North in a town hall with frontline troops at a particularly austere forward base in Panjwaii.
> 
> “They will have to learn how to wear our winter gear, move in the snow, be in the harness of a toboggan, light a stove outside their tent without burning it down and to do surveillance and sovereignty operations in the Arctic. To a young guy who has not done it before, it is different and with that difference will come a level of excitement.” ....


More here.


----------



## OldSolduer

This could be a very steep learning curve for our younger NCOs and officers.


----------



## Oh No a Canadian

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> This could be a very steep learning curve for our younger NCOs and officers.


That being a good or bad thing?


----------



## OldSolduer

Oh No a Canadian said:
			
		

> That being a good or bad thing?



Mostly a good thing. They'll need some mentorship from some senior folk who know. Some may need a good swift.....session of counselling.


----------



## PPCLI MCpl

This tent you speak of.....is it difficult to use?


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Not at all.

It is lighting the stove without burning down the tent that is hard.


----------



## chrisf

I like how that was specificly mentioned.


----------



## SeaKingTacco

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Not at all.
> 
> It is lighting the stove without burning down the tent that is hard.



I feel like an ass- I didn't even see that line in the orginal article.

Still-you haven't lived until you have thrown a flaming stove out of a 10 man tent...


----------



## PPCLI MCpl

I particularily enjoy the chicanery of tent routine:

"Don't worry man, I filled the latern just before I woke you for shift. It's alllllllll good."


----------



## Good2Golf

PPCLI WO said:
			
		

> I particularily enjoy the chicanery of tent routine:
> 
> "Don't worry man, I filled the latern just before I woke you for shift. It's alllllllll good."



Oh when a guy lays a steamer in the middle of the night just in front of the Vacan's air inlet...

Anyone know what the CF record for how many stacks on an immersion heater's exhaust you could put on?  A buddy and I had five sections on (progressively, starting with two, then sliding another section of three onto the first two).  The whole thing secured with some buckshee guy wiring with WD line...  >


----------



## old medic

Canadian troops heading north to Arctic after Afghan mission
 By Matthew Fisher, Postmedia News
http://www.theprovince.com/news/Canadian+troops+heading+Arctic+after+Afghan+mission/3707437/story.html



> PANJWAII, Afghanistan — Canadian troops will soon swap one barren desert for another, as many Afghan veterans deploy to Canada's Far North late this winter for the first major Arctic exercise after almost 10 years of fighting insurgents in South Asia, according to the new commander of the Canadian army.
> 
> About 600 infantrymen based in Quebec and Alberta will be the first to trade Afghan temperatures that can run as high as 60 C for the -40 C that are common during the winter in Canada's North. It is part of a strategy to keep young soldiers in the army by giving them fresh challenges, said Lt.-Gen. Peter Devlin.
> 
> The move also dovetails nicely with the Conservative government's frequently stated priority to protect the country's northern frontiers.
> 
> "The Arctic may not seem very exciting to older guys because they have done it before, but to the vast majority of the army it will be new," Devlin said after talking up the North in a town hall with frontline troops at a particularly austere forward base in Panjwaii.
> 
> "They will have to learn how to wear our winter gear, move in the snow, be in the harness of a toboggan, light a stove outside their tent without burning it down and to do surveillance and sovereignty operations in the Arctic. To a young guy who has not done it before, it is different and with that difference will come a level of excitement."
> 
> While acknowledging that the move coincided with Prime Minister Stephen Harper's announced intention to bolster Canadian sovereignty in the North, Devlin said that the military purpose of such exercises was to bolster morale and provide meaningful training.
> 
> "I don't think the army needs to go back to basics, but I think there are some skills — winter warfare would be one good example — where we haven't had the ability to conduct training for some time," he said.
> 
> Two soldiers were already in Brazil learning jungle warfare, while some soldiers would be trained for air mobility operations using Canada's new fleet of Chinook helicopters. There would also be more mountain warfare training and a taste of amphibious operations because Canadian troops had to go ashore in Haiti and in Timor.
> 
> "I do not mean that every year we will have guys going ashore across a beach," Devlin said, "but it would be useful for our army to have an understanding of the complexity of these operations."
> 
> Still, the question that has been most on soldiers' minds for some time has been where Canada might next send them overseas.
> 
> "The army doesn't need a pause. I'd like you to note that," Devlin said. "The army is very flexible. If there is a window before we go out again, we will exploit it for training. If there is no window and we are going out the door, I assure Canada that the army will be ready to go.
> 
> "I think that the next conflict will be different than this conflict. Our training plan will adjust for 'a war,' rather than 'the war,' and that will involve a bit of uncertainty."
> 
> Equally uncertain is the level of funding for the Armed Forces post-2010.
> 
> "I believe that there will be some resource challenges in the years ahead," Devlin said. "Part of this is due to the fact that we have enjoyed a certainty of mission and funding to allow the current mission to be as successful as it has been. That additional funding will definitely come to an end in 2011."
> 
> There have also been persistent rumours here that Ottawa and NATO will soon agree on a training role for Canadian troops in Afghanistan when the combat mission ends next July. If this were to happen, a contribution of about 400 trainers is the number mentioned most often.
> 
> "What does 400 trainers mean?" Devlin said. "Are you looking for the heart of one battalion or are you looking for 400 NCOs (senior enlisted personnel), which is the heart of a lot more than one battalion?"
> 
> Canada still has about 1,250 more infantry on the books than was intended, but that number was dropping and the army remained in good shape after eight years in Kandahar, Kabul and then Kandahar again, the general said.
> 
> "The army has what I call warrior spirit," he said. "We have a new level of confidence, a new level of skill and a new level of professionalism. We are a professional army capable of full spectrum combat operations and proud of what we have done in combat in Afghanistan. We are proud of the pride that we have instilled domestically and the influence we have gained internationally."


----------



## Oh No a Canadian

Already a discussion on the subject.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/97180/post-983264/topicseen.html#new


----------



## dogger1936

Yeah thats a sure fire way to keep guys in after Afganistan... send em to the arctic!  ;D

Being frozen staring at frozen tundra is the excitement the troops will be craving!


(note: I do agree that it's great training...but really? retention?)


----------



## Arsenal

Hahah yea I was just going to point that out... Brilliant.


----------



## dogger1936

it's nothing like being north of 60 on polar bear watch to give young troops time to contemplate life...and WTF I'm doing!! ;D

I speak from experience!


----------



## bdave

Damn, wish I could do this.
Sounds like quite the experience!


----------



## Arsenal

Guys are bummed over going to wainwright in february... The artic though, god damn. Frostbite, agonizing cold, humping tent groups across the frozen tundra. At least when the 1980s attack we'll be prepared.


----------



## BDTyre

I'd be up for some experience up north (my wife is even encouraging it). I was lucky and got a very small taste of "winter" warfare on my reserve, weekend BMQ. We had to set-up and man arctic tents and haul the toboggans (sp?) around, albeit in only -15. I got another small taste of cold weather during pre-deployment (it only got down to -47, and we had guys getting frostbite at -30). I must say, it was a learning experience especially when we weren't issued with a complete set of arctic gear. I'd do it again, for sure.


----------



## AIC_2K5

At least the CLS will be putting a greater emphasis on training in other complex environments:



> "I don't think the army needs to go back to basics, but I think there are some skills — winter warfare would be one good example — where we haven't had the ability to conduct training for some time," he said.
> 
> Two soldiers were already in Brazil learning jungle warfare, while some soldiers would be trained for air mobility operations using Canada's new fleet of Chinook helicopters. There would also be more mountain warfare training and a taste of amphibious operations because Canadian troops had to go ashore in Haiti and in Timor.
> 
> "I do not mean that every year we will have guys going ashore across a beach," Devlin said, "but it would be useful for our army to have an understanding of the complexity of these operations."


----------



## Scott

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Oh when a guy lays a steamer in the middle of the night just in front of the Vacan's air inlet...
> 
> Anyone know what the CF record for how many stacks on an immersion heater's exhaust you could put on?  A buddy and I had five sections on (progressively, starting with two, then sliding another section of three onto the first two).  The whole thing secured with some buckshee guy wiring with WD line...  >



My personal record for blowing them off is three.


----------



## officerdown

quote "Canadian troops will soon swap one barren desert for another, as many Afghan veterans deploy to Canada’s Far North late this winter for the first major Arctic exercise after almost 10 years of fighting insurgents in South Asia, according to the new commander of the Canadian army.

About 600 infantrymen based in Quebec and Alberta will be the first to trade Afghan temperatures that can run as high as 60 C for the -40 C that are common during the winter in Canada’s North. It is part of a strategy to keep young soldiers in the army by giving them fresh challenges, said Lt.-Gen. Peter Devlin.

The move also dovetails nicely with the Conservative government’s frequently stated priority to protect the country’s northern frontiers.

“The Arctic may not seem very exciting to older guys because they have done it before, but to the vast majority of the army it will be new,” Lt-Gen. Devlin said after talking up the North in a town hall with frontline troops at a particularly austere forward base in Panjwaii.

“They will have to learn how to wear our winter gear, move in the snow, be in the harness of a toboggan, light a stove outside their tent without burning it down and to do surveillance and sovereignty operations in the Arctic. To a young guy who has not done it before, it is different and with that difference will come a level of excitement.” .... "


I just wanted to add that Afghanistan is in Central Asia, not South Asia.


----------



## Shamrock

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> This could be a very steep learning curve for our younger NCOs and officers.



Nah, I'm good.  I've got basic winter warfare.  This shit should be simple.


----------



## George Wallace

officerdown said:
			
		

> I just wanted to add that Afghanistan is in Central Asia, not South Asia.



Your Googlefu has failed you.  This is like saying Southern Ontario is Central Ontario.

South Asia, also known as Southern Asia, is the southern region of the Asian continent, which comprises the sub-Himalayan countries and, for some authorities, also includes the adjoining countries on the west and the east. Topographically, it is dominated by the Indian Plate, which rises above sea level as the Indian subcontinent south of the Himalayas and the Hindu Kush. South Asia is surrounded (clockwise, from west) by Western Asia, Central Asia, Eastern Asia, Southeastern Asia and the Indian Ocean. According to the United Nations geographical region,  South Asia comprises the countries of  India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Nepal, Maldives, Afghanistan, Iran and Sri Lanka.


----------



## Armymedic

Arsenal said:
			
		

> Guys are bummed over going to wainwright in february... The artic though, god damn. Frostbite, agonizing cold, humping tent groups across the frozen tundra. At least when the 1980s attack we'll be prepared.



WOW.

Do you not watch the news or read a newspaper (either on actual paper or online)?

The next "war for oil" (as our leftist friends tend to call it) and strategic area for the resources that are needed to supply the world's industries will be likely above the Arctic Circle.

We might want to be somewhat prepared to defend our own turf when the 2020s attack.


----------



## vonGarvin

I'll point out (again) that the highest temperature ever recorded in Kandahar was 42 point something degrees.

Of course, that's ambient air temperature, not factoring in things like humidity or the sun hitting you or even reflecting off the road, or in a tank or...


But the press should at least qualify things like that...


----------



## gun runner

It can't be all that bad...I mean really, it will be black half of the year, and the other half is the time to find all the sh*t that went missing during the dark half! i think it is a make work project myself!Cheers.


----------



## PuckChaser

gun runner said:
			
		

> It can't be all that bad...I mean really, it will be black half of the year, and the other half is the time to find all the **** that went missing during the dark half! i think it is a make work project myself!Cheers.



I tend to agree, without the government committing us to a mission after Kandahar, we've got to start planning to do SOMETHING. 30 day survival trips to Alert so we all get SSMs?


----------



## gun runner

They could have picked someplace warmer..like Congo!


----------



## Arsenal

Rider Pride said:
			
		

> WOW.
> 
> Do you not watch the news or read a newspaper (either on actual paper or online)?
> 
> The next "war for oil" (as our leftist friends tend to call it) and strategic area for the resources that are needed to supply the world's industries will be likely above the Arctic Circle.
> 
> We might want to be somewhat prepared to defend our own turf when the 2020s attack.



I'm well aware of that, I was leaning more towards the type of "training" that will be done up there... We are flexing our muscle in the north, I get it.  For the soldier on the ground all that means is tent routine and freezing our balls off doing jack.


----------



## Northern Ranger

Arsenal said:
			
		

> I'm well aware of that, I was leaning more towards the type of "training" that will be done up there... We are flexing our muscle in the north, I get it.  For the soldier on the ground all that means is tent routine and freezing our balls off doing jack.



About the smartest thing said in this thread.  I want troops to learn stuff, bring them up in the summer, build some skills, build some routines, learn the area and learn how to use a map and gps .  When here in the winter it will teach troops how to survive tent routine -50 to 60not much takes place and regardless of the rules, you will refuel and light your stove in a tent when its -40 and the wind is blowing at 50km an hour, its a skill set that needs to get learned.
 :yellow:


----------



## chrisf

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I tend to agree, without the government committing us to a mission after Kandahar, we've got to start planning to do SOMETHING. 30 day survival trips to Alert so we all get SSMs?



You'd need to do six before you got an SSM. 180 days non-consecutive.


----------



## gun runner

Northern Ranger,well stated,and true..but without a base to return to after training(sorry Alert does not qualify as a base)the walk home will really suck. As a taxpayer I say 'build it( a new base) and they will come', as a member, I say it's about damn time too(for a base in the arctic).Sovereignty is the one thing I never thought of as a kid, because nothing ever happened.And now...well lets start building.Cheers.


----------



## OldSolduer

Shamrock said:
			
		

> Nah, I'm good.  I've got basic winter warfare.  This crap should be simple.



You think so? OK..... ;D


----------



## PuckChaser

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> You'd need to do six before you got an SSM. 180 days non-consecutive.



Oh thats right, the GCS is 30 days.


----------



## Franko

Arsenal said:
			
		

> I'm well aware of that, I was leaning more towards the type of "training" that will be done up there... We are flexing our muscle in the north, I get it.  For the soldier on the ground all that means is tent routine and freezing our balls off doing jack.



Well if the training isn't what you want it to be, pipe up and make some suggestions or go further and develop a training plan. 

I can't stand it when troops complain about the training, or lack thereof, that they receive on ex and aren't willing to say something except bitch whine and moan about it.

Every time we did winter warfare in any Sqn/ Tp I have ever been in it was excellent and far more interesting than some of the other units due to the fact that the Tpr/ Cpls made suggestions and came up with viable plans. From making snow defensive's (snow crete ) to learning how to survive off the land. Other troops just sat in their tents and whined that they got nothing out of the training.

Regards


----------



## Retired AF Guy

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Still-you haven't lived until you have thrown a flaming stove out of a 10 man tent...



Been there..done that!


----------



## Shamrock

Northern Ranger said:
			
		

> About the smartest thing said in this thread.  I want troops to learn stuff, bring them up in the summer, build some skills, build some routines, learn the area and learn how to use a map and gps .  When here in the winter it will teach troops how to survive tent routine -50 to 60not much takes place and regardless of the rules, you will refuel and light your stove in a tent when its -40 and the wind is blowing at 50km an hour, its a skill set that needs to get learned.
> :yellow:



Simulation is an effective aid to training, but training in the environment is irreplaceable.  Further, while the troops will learn some valuable lessons in the cold, they aren't the target audience in Level 2 and beyond training.  However, the troops who participated in these exercises may find themselves in higher positions later in life and can apply that knowledge directly or institutionally.

Otherwise, the humor in my previous comment becomes a terrifying reality.


----------



## dogger1936

I've also been on the receiving end of young officers in the warm CP dreaming up great things for cold,tired hungry troops to do out in -30. Unfortunately we didn't have snr NCO's with the professionalism to bring up at the AAR (nevermind while out there) that you CANNOT do that sort of pushing up north. We had 6 dehydration cases multiple frost bites etc (within 4 days in southern Ontario)...all because many officers forgot that water has to be boiled down from ice...and requires time. Tent routine can be exhausting with small numbers of people, etc etc etc.

Snr NCO's have to do their jobs in the north. Which sometimes means saying "NO!" and adding in WHY.


----------



## aesop081

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> Snr NCO's have to do their jobs in the north. Which sometimes means saying "NO!" and adding in WHY.



In order for many to be able to do that, they have to go up there and experience it first hand. Same goes for junior officers like the ones you mentioned. What a great leadership development oportunity eh ?


----------



## dogger1936

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> In order for many to be able to do that, they have to go up there and experience it first hand. Same goes for junior officers like the ones you mentioned. What a great leadership development oportunity eh ?



Indeed.Its just a shame that the mentoring aspect of this form of training is near gone. The inexperience and mistakes unfortunately will be worn by the young guys they wish to retain with this type of operation.

Hopefully we get a really good cold winter down here to shake out the cobwebs.


----------



## safetysOff

I love eating food from a cold paper pouch  :threat:


----------



## canuck101

When i read your response I get the mental image of someone saying " I love the smell and fell of wind chill in the morning" lol


----------



## Fdtrucker

If units are training Basic Winter Warfare and then having additional Trg Exercises in southern Canada and going above the 60th Parallel practicing Winter Warfare, then maybe those units should be looking at sending more MCpl/Sgt/WO/Lt onto the Advance Winter Warfare Course. This way they will have BWW/Training exercises and the Advance Course as experience. Being Qualified Advance Winter Warfare also qualifies that members as a Artic Advisor. If something is going wrong there is a qual member to put it on track.  Did my AWWC in Wainwright and NWT before it was moved to Trenton CFLAWC.


----------



## pbi

I think Jim Seggie will agree with the following...

Don't blame Afghhanistan for the shocking disappearance of winter warfare skills in the Army (especially the RegF). IMHO, this started long before any of us could find Kabul on a map. It was brought about nearly a decade before, by the emphasis on deployments to Yugo under the UN and then NATO, when the decision was taken to focus training more and more on TMST conducted in warmer locations in the US.

The skill fade didn't happen overnight: as a junior officer in the early '80's, I recall winter exercises in which all of 1 CMBG went to Wainwright (and later on, a couple of times Chilcoten) for almost a month under prairie winter conditions. We started at Level 1 or 2 trg, then moved up to at least Level 5 (occasionally 7). As well as the Bde exercises, when I was with 1PP (89-97)we did several annual AMF(L) deployments to NATO exercises in Norway while we had that role. All of these exercises were extremely expensive and they eventually ceased, but we always did something at unit level until probably the mid-late nineties or so, when it began to drop to company level training.

I was DCO of 1 PPCLI in 96/97. One day in the deep winter, the QMSI and I drove from Calgary down to the Crowsnest pass, where one of our companies was on exercise on land clearances. Walking around, we began to notice signs that all the many tricks and TTPs for winter ops that the QMSI and I had grown up with were lacking. I asked the CSM about snow defences. He told me that they weren't doing them because there was no longer any corporate knowledge on the skill set. Then, he went on to say something that surprised me: words to the effect probably only he and the CQMS knew anything whatsoever about winter ops. That comment stuck with me: I have to assume that things were similar in other RegF units.

After Yugo faded away, then came Afghanistan which (for understandable reasons) took the focus away from winter ops even further, making an already bad situation much worse. Although I've since left the RegF, I have no doubt that it will be a "start from square one" situation for most RegF units.

I'm glad to see that we've "remembered" that we live in a country that, in at least half of its huge extent, is cold, sparsely inhabited, and difficult to operate in for much of the year. Whether we think it's "interesting" or not is irrelevant.: it's our country and securing it is our first responsibility. Retention of Afghanistan veterans in the service is a very important goal, but we can't define our operational roles based on that. Whether these very valuable folks stay or go will, IMHO, be decided by the quality and intensity of the training they do, not by its geographic setting.

The world is changing, all the time, which means that our security situation will change. If history tells us one thing, it's that we never know what's coming next. Smug assumptions that  we'll "never" have to conduct Defence of Canada ops could always be proven wrong. On top of that, if we want to be taken seriously about our claims to sovereignty of our country, including the North, we need to demonstrate a capable joint response. To me, "joint" includes a credible Land component that can not just survive, but operate and if necessary, fight in severe cold weather conditions.

Cheers


----------



## OldSolduer

You thought right PBI, the skill fade started long before Afghanistan. I fully agree.

And I agree with Cdn Aviator - a great place to refine leadership skills.


----------



## Kat Stevens

In the 80's, Ex Rapier Thrust was my second favourite thing to do, after Ex Valley Run (bridge gallop).  I was very surprised when I returned to 1 CER from Germany in '92 that winter indoc was two nights of tent group routine in a Provincial park, and only unqualified pers were required to attend.  That's when the rot set in, we were more concerned with sending troops to Wainwright to do TCP training for some far off shit hole, than we were with training to defend our own Country.  Winter Warfare wasn't the only casualty either.  Bridge training for an Engineer Regiment in the 90's was non existent... if you didn't build them on course, you didn't build them at all.  Toward the end of my period of military employment, you would be hard pressed to find 4 SNCOs in the regiment I would have been comfortable on a bridge site with.  That peacekeeper label the sheeple love to toss around cost us dearly.


----------



## GAP

Soooo, given there's a lack of experience training, how did they do in Nfdld?


----------



## Kat Stevens

I didn't follow the Nld story too closely, but I'm sure they did well.  There is however a huge difference between a daylight build on a prepared site and a tactical bridge build when it's darker than the inside of a cow.


----------



## PuckChaser

My unit ran a winter warfare course last year.... it amounted to 2 days outside (one was improvised shelters which was awesome). Calling it "warfare" though is an insult, weapons were carried because that's the habit, and the troops only had 30 rounds of blank a piece.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> I didn't follow the Nld story too closely, but I'm sure they did well.  There is however a huge difference between a daylight build on a prepared site and a tactical bridge build when it's darker than the inside of a cow.



We did well Kat, most of the build was during daylight but we also brought in flood lights to build into the wee hours of the morning.....and we spent days preparing the sites....which where very restrictive....


----------



## Old Sweat

Look, we, okay, you have got to start somewhere, and Square One seems as good as place as any. If that is a two day winter indoctrination course, so be it. It is two days more than the unit would have had if it had been decided that it was too difficult. It may take time, but the skills and corporate knowledge will be developed. Why not bring in a few of the old arctic foxes that are out there and pick their brains either sitting around a table or in a more formal setting?

The same thing could be said about all sorts of things that went by the wayside in the last couple of decades. The modern officers and troops aren't stupid, and with a bit of help can start to rebuild the lost skill sets. 

One last thought. Our little army which was widely believed by outsiders to have concentrated on peacekeeping "somehow" managed to make the transition to war pretty well despite not having fought for two generations. By the logic I see in much of this thread, we should not have been able to do so. The behind the scenes concentration of fighting skills year after year after year was much of the reason. There is no reason today's army can't do the same with winter ops or amphibious ops or jungle ops or whatever; it will just take some time and some mistakes will be made. In the end, the effort will be bear fruit. It's like making sausages. The process is really frigging ugly, but the result is well worth the effort.

I will now crawl back in my hole and keep quiet.


----------



## OldSolduer

I concur with OS......it may be ugly, but the "end state" desired is to have an Army that can function in the cold. You don't HAVE to go to the Arctic to be cold. Try Shilo. 

If anyone is interested, contact 38 Bde WRT Northern Bison.


----------



## gun runner

HAHAHAHAHA!


----------



## George Wallace

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> My unit ran a winter warfare course last year.... it amounted to 2 days outside (one was improvised shelters which was awesome). Calling it "warfare" though is an insult, weapons were carried because that's the habit, and the troops only had 30 rounds of blank a piece.



It is "warfare".  You have to know how to suvive in the cold and fight off the elements to stay warm and dry.  Then you have to know how to maintain your weapons and kit in the extreme cold so that they don't fail you when either Mother Nature or some human enemy tries to kill you.  It is "warfare".  It will not always be an IED, bomb or bullet from an enemy that kills you.  It could be the "Cold" and/or the "Wet" or perhaps "Fire" when some idiot lights a stove or lantern inside a tent and burns the Tent Group to the ground.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Look, we, okay, you have got to start somewhere, and Square One seems as good as place as any. If that is a two day winter indoctrination course, so be it. It is two days more than the unit would have had if it had been decided that it was too difficult. It may take time, but the skills and corporate knowledge will be developed. Why not bring in a few of the old arctic foxes that are out there and pick their brains either sitting around a table or in a more formal setting?
> 
> The same thing could be said about all sorts of things that went by the wayside in the last couple of decades. The modern officers and troops aren't stupid, and with a bit of help can start to rebuild the lost skill sets.
> 
> One last thought. Our little army which was widely believed by outsiders to have concentrated on peacekeeping "somehow" managed to make the transition to war pretty well despite not having fought for two generations. By the logic I see in much of this thread, we should not have been able to do so. The behind the scenes concentration of fighting skills year after year after year was much of the reason. There is no reason today's army can't do the same with winter ops or amphibious ops or jungle ops or whatever; it will just take some time and some mistakes will be made. In the end, the effort will be bear fruit. It's like making sausages. The process is really frigging ugly, but the result is well worth the effort.
> 
> I will now crawl back in my hole and keep quiet.


----------



## pbi

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I concur with OS......it may be ugly, but the "end state" desired is to have an Army that can function in the cold. You don't HAVE to go to the Arctic to be cold. Try Shilo.
> 
> If anyone is interested, contact 38 Bde WRT Northern Bison.



Good point Jim. In my post I focused on the skill loss in the RegF, for a specific reason: I think it was worse there. As far as I know (based on my time as COS 38 CBG 2002-2005), the skill loss was not as bad in the Army Reserve, as their training was not as heavily slaved to the op roto cycle as the RegF. As Jim points out, 38 CBG maintained a respectable level of skill in this area, and for a while ran a Winter Warfare course that was (IIRC) accredited by LFWATC. Of course, living in SK/MB/NW ONT helps you to take winter a bit more seriously...


I also agree with Old Sweat: what was lost can be regained. Even us old guys weren't born knowing how to pack a toboggan or build a snow shelter: somebody taught us. The Army can gather the expertise in from those who still know, from our Rangers, from old manuals, and from other countries who train for it. With that we can create training cadres, and start again. Canadian soldiers can learn to anything well if they put their minds to it.

Cheers


----------



## Kat Stevens

Weird. I had a nice long winded post there, luckily for you all it seems not to have made it.  It was awesome, trust me.


----------



## daftandbarmy

There may be some here who will disagree, but in terms of arctic operations, the 'skill fade' will have the biggest impact on operational effectiveness in the A & B Echelons, plus other more complex support needs. 

You can train up and equip a rifle company pretty quick to do what's required in the cold. It's harder to make sure that you can exist longer than a week or so, which is where the echelon being equipped and trained properly comes in. E.g., the helicopters, my Gawd, the things you need to do to keep those things flying at mega sub-zero temps just isn't worth thinking about (for an infantryrman that is, it hurts my brain).


----------



## Old Sweat

Here is an indication of how quickly a major skill that altered our way of doing things can be mastered. In late 1964 the first M113A1s arrived in 4 CIBG and were issued to 1 PPCLI. Much of 1965 and 1966 was devoted to training in the operation of the APCs and in the platoon and company formations and tactics, along with cooperation with the armoured regiment. It really meant that the infantry, which had moved and thought at a speed Marlborough and Wellington would have been comfortable with, had to undergo a major shift. This was also true for the other arms. Anyway, in the fall of 1966 the brigade took part in a division exercise as part of 1 (BR) Corps. This included an assault water crossing of a major obstacle - the Weser River, I think - which saw 2 RCR swim all four "rifle" companies across under tactical conditions. The battalion had rotated to Germany over the winter of 1965-1966, so it only had had several months to master the new role.


----------



## pbi

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> There may be some here who will disagree, but in terms of arctic operations, the 'skill fade' will have the biggest impact on operational effectiveness in the A & B Echelons, plus other more complex support needs...
> You can train up and equip a rifle company pretty quick to do what's required in the cold. It's harder to make sure that you can exist longer than a week or so, which is where the echelon being equipped and trained properly comes in. E.g., the helicopters, my Gawd, the things you need to do to keep those things flying at mega sub-zero temps just isn't worth thinking about (for an infantryrman that is, it hurts my brain).



Very good point. CSS soldiers have to be soldiers first, but effective supporters right after that. Having commanded Admin Coy/1PP on a winter exercise in Wainwright when windchill took us down to about -50, I agree completely. As an example, one very cold night, the main generator unit that was lighting the  camp (and powering heaters, etc.), failed. As a result, while almost everybody was asleep, things began to freeze up, including the main generator itself, other generators, heaters, etc. That isn't funny when it gets very cold. Of course, once you get below -25, unheated diesel will start to gel, which poses its own set of problems. Our veh techs managed to get one generator inside a repair van, thaw it out, and then use it to power up a single heater. From there, we gradually got everything thawed out and going again. Good thing nobody was trying to kill us at the same time. (Although some people probably wanted to...)

The other problem that you face with CSS folks is that while almost everybody in a rifle coy has a solid Army field background, that isn't the case with all of your support people, esp in Log and Med. Even though I found them to be excellent and hard working folks for the most part, sometimes you had to start from square one just to teach them about life in the Army. Add surviving under winter conditions to that and it can be a challenge, never mind doing support or combat tasks.

Cheers


----------



## OldSolduer

The best thing that can be said about winter ops is that Winter is a great equalizer. Everyone, friendly and enemy, are subject to the ravages of winter.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Arsenal said:
			
		

> I'm well aware of that, I was leaning more towards the type of "training" that will be done up there... We are flexing our muscle in the north, I get it.  *For the soldier on the ground all that means is tent routine and freezing our balls off doing jack*.


It doesn't _necessarily_ have to....
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/84292.0
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/land-terre/news-nouvelles/story-reportage-eng.asp?id=3500
http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/commun/ml-fe/article-eng.asp?id=6056


----------



## Wookilar

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> There may be some here who will disagree, but in terms of arctic operations, the 'skill fade' will have the biggest impact on operational effectiveness in the A & B Echelons, plus other more complex support needs.



I couldn't agree more. I think we are going to reap exactly what we have sown wrt the reduced amount of hands-on training that many tech trades have gotten for a few years. I am not very confident that many on the EME side will still have enough of a solid troubleshooting background.

As pbi noted, working on a genny with an air-lock is one thing...working on a frozen genny with an air-lock, with waxy fuel, with frozen fingers under red-light conditions is another thing all together.
Every generator type (and heater for that matter) I have ever worked on has frozen up at one time or another (mechanics gloves are a gift from heaven as far as I am concerned).

That old '54 skid-mounted Cat genny we had at 1 VP ran like gangbusters every Ex, even in the winter, but even it went down occasionally, and it had no electronic controls to freeze up.

That all being said, it doesn't take long for troops to pick up the necessary skills. I saw one tent fire, very early in my career, got frost bite my 1st winter ex. These are memories that tend to stick in your mind.

Wook


----------



## Kirkhill

On receiving my parchment the first thing my CO said to me was "time to head to the mess".

The second thing he said to me, after pouring the beer I had just bought him over my single stripe, was "As the only uninterested officer in the unit I need you conduct an inquiry into why one of Her Majesty's Tents disappeared in a puff of smoke on our last Winter Indoc exercise".

If anyone needs a copy of 1 PPCLI's Winter Warfare SOP Aide Memoire, circa 1980 and suitably annotated for the Calgary Highlanders please send beer and I can put you in touch with one.

As I recall the outcome of the Inquiry was the recommendation to lay charges - "Conduct prejudicial to the maintenance of good order and discipline"  - suitably filed and never acted on.


----------



## Kirkhill

Having read this thread I was jolted back to my time "playing soldier" and it prompted this:

A few Winter Indoctrination observations from a MITCP officer.

1. It is dark at night and nights are very long in the Winter.
2. It is important to memorize trivia such as the relative positions of Safe, Fire and Automatic (Or was that Full, Safe and Automatic?) on the FN C1A1 because of point 1. 
3. Squeezing the trigger while a blank round is in the chamber and the magazine is loaded is a reliable and effective method of determining the answer to the conundrum at point 2.
4. CO’s and fellow soldiers tend to take a dim view of solution at point 3.
5. See point one.
6. It is very difficult to find the trigger group spring assembly of an FNC1 in a snow bank after conducting an indepth, “inspection” of one of your soldier’s FNs in the conditions described in points 1 and 5.
7. Loss of said spring assembly, and rendering one of Her Majesty’s Rifles N/S does not endear you to your chain of command and generates lots of paperwork.
8. Paperwork resulting from loss of said spring assembly can be drastically reduced by having a quiet conversation with a co-operative unit armourer.
9. Paperwork can be further reduced by ensuring that the event happens on an exercise where your OC c*cks-up worse than you.
10. It is possible to unditch an MLVW with an axe after it has slid off an inclined skating rink cleverly camouflaged as a mountain road. 
11. It is not necessary to carry chains, shackles, come-alongs, sledges, picks or straps on Winter Exercises.  See point 10.
12. Having your OC and OPI-Ex bottle with the only MLVW in the packet with a winch, while declaring he has important stuff to do back at the armouries and will send help encourages innovation.  See point 10 again.
13.  Radios with long range and someone manning a base station during an exercise are surplus to requirement.  See point 12.
14.  It is very peaceful and warm lying in a snowdrift in the dark enjoying the night sky  at 20 below in your issue gear beyond the tent line during a break in the training plan.
15. Regardless of where you are your troops will find you.
16. Opportunities for impromptu astral navigation courses (dippers and north stars, hunters and bears) present themselves in the most unexpected times.  Discussions of night vision, rods and cones and constellations that can only be seen when you don’t look at them, follow.
17. Planning such exercises at Sarcee will inevitably be for naught as sky glow from the city on a cloudy night with snow on the ground makes it impossible to see the sky at all.
18.  Further to point 17, on the plus side conditions above made it easier to read maps and navigate at midnight than it was on in the fog on Shirley Road at midday.
19. Knee high snow with an ice crust means that that review of your OPs around that bluff at Dundurn that took 20 minutes in the summer takes over 2 hours.
20.  Always remember the password.  See point 19.
21.  After training to combat HYPO-thermia your will discover that HYPER-thermia is the real problem when a keen young soldier on his first exercise, impressed with all his warm new gear, wears it all and has it all zipped up and buttoned up, and wanting to impress is allowed by his section leader to stay in the traces hauling the toboggan up the road referenced in point 10.  
22.  The young soldier’s enthusiasm will only become apparent when he drops in harness and falls into a “heat stroke induced” coma.
23.  You will thank God for a real ambulance with real live medics on the exercise.  See point 22.
24.  Carrying spare, non-issue “survival” items, knives, ropes, carabineers etc will improve your chances of following the young soldier into the ambulance.
25.  You will never have enough water at 40 below.
26. Take whatever opportunity you can to rest and you might be able to avoid repeating these learning experiences.
27. It is easier to learn in a nice, warm, comfy, quiet classroom from a boring instructor than it is to learn in a snowdrift from a cold, tired, angry one.

These are some of the lessons I learned on various exercises.  But the most important ones I learned were about the value of letting people learn, about preparing to fix the mistakes they make while they are learning, and, for those in command, the importance of being constantly aware during planning that those are real live people’s lives you are gambling with, even during training.

It is a wonder that the CF and the Calg Highrs survived me, and they are better served by my absence, but I thank both for what they taught me during all those exercises freezing appurtenances off and learning tent routine.


----------



## Kiwi99

Lets not kid ourselves...Arctic Operations are not going to prevent massive retention issues post Afghanistan.  There are large amounts of soldiers who, in the last 5 years, joined the CF for one reason...KANDAHAR.  Everyone wanted their go at the enemy, to say they had the stones, win VCs, whatever.  SOVOPS are not going to make those guys and girls stay in, no matter what.  

I have said before that retention is our next battle.  How do we keep soldiers in the CF?  After talking with some Ptes and Cpls and even junior MCpls, having them freeze their junk off up north is not the way to do it.

And it's not just the bloody freezing temps that make them turn away.  For those that have deployed their is the dread of post war boredom, the post tour blues.  I had the post tour blues really bad this year when i went back to 1VP this year after 10 months in theater last year.  Especially with being in the rear party for that unit.  (luckily I am fortunate enough to learn french for a year now...I think lucky is the word).  No matter how exciting you make the training, it simply is not going to be as exciting as a fire-fight, and that is going to be a huge transition for some people.


----------



## OldSolduer

And we all know what the post war will bring. Retention issues? You bet we'll have em. And I agree, going to the Arctic or even Shilo isn't going to do anything.
We all know what the post deployment will bring:

1. Emergence of OSIs among all rank levels. This will be a HUGE issue;
2. Another issue is the "garatrooper" mentality. We MUST do all we can to prevent that. That mentality will drive people out, especially those that have "seen the elephant" so to speak.


----------



## bdave

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> 2. Another issue is the "garatrooper" mentality. We MUST do all we can to prevent that. That mentality will drive people out, especially those that have "seen the elephant" so to speak.



What is garatrooper?


----------



## aesop081

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> 2. Another issue is the "garatrooper" mentality.



and we must be careful what people consider "garatrooper" mentality.


----------



## OldSolduer

bdave said:
			
		

> What is garatrooper?



Its someone, IMO, who enforces every little rule and regulation to the letter without regard how it affects his/her personnel. Now, I realize there is a need for discipline, and rules and regulations. I also recognize the need for some Drill and Ceremonial we've lacked the last few years....and I agree that operations take primacy.

The trick is to know when and where to bend the rules.


----------



## ArmyRick

Personally from my expiriences (I served in the same Coy as Jim for awhile in 2VP) I would offer this. With the wind down (potentially) of operations in A-stan (Just remember, six months later we may be standing in some other place anywhere in the world), here is my ideas for Infantry (Speaking as one)
-Keep troops busy (NOT insanely busy) with productive training (PCF cycle, career courses) and interesting training (Beleive it or not, but alot of dudes enjoy a trip to the arctic for a sov ex plus the rangers can teach you cool stuff).
-When possible, try getting the troops on international exercises (Fort Irwin and Fort Polk are two good examples) I always found those to be a real blast
-Some may want to move on to other careers within the CF, I would hope their respective CoC support them fully
-For those that we can, advance their careers

So I guess basically we keep troops busy doing productive stuff but not "make work" projects. If troops are left to go stale, they will up and leave. Its a balance and it will take good leaders to know when and where to do what.

In the end, some will leave anyways, nothing can be done about that and its better if a soldier wants out to let him go.

Avoiding the Garatrooper mentality is a big one. I know exactly where Jim is coming from on this one.

I am basing this on MY expiriences so if you disagree, so be it.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Its someone, IMO, who enforces every little rule and regulation to the letter without regard how it affects his/her personnel.



Actually, from the original source: Bill Mauldin, who republished the 1944 cartoon in his 1945 book "Up Front":



> The garritroopers are able to look like combat men or like the rear soldiers, depending upon the current fashion trend.


----------



## daftandbarmy

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> Personally from my expiriences (I served in the same Coy as Jim for awhile in 2VP) I would offer this. With the wind down (potentially) of operations in A-stan (Just remember, six months later we may be standing in some other place anywhere in the world), here is my ideas for Infantry (Speaking as one)
> -Keep troops busy (NOT insanely busy) with productive training (PCF cycle, career courses) and interesting training (Beleive it or not, but alot of dudes enjoy a trip to the arctic for a sov ex plus the rangers can teach you cool stuff).
> -When possible, try getting the troops on international exercises (Fort Irwin and Fort Polk are two good examples) I always found those to be a real blast
> -Some may want to move on to other careers within the CF, I would hope their respective CoC support them fully
> -For those that we can, advance their careers
> 
> So I guess basically we keep troops busy doing productive stuff but not "make work" projects. If troops are left to go stale, they will up and leave. Its a balance and it will take good leaders to know when and where to do what.
> 
> In the end, some will leave anyways, nothing can be done about that and its better if a soldier wants out to let him go.
> 
> Avoiding the Garatrooper mentality is a big one. I know exactly where Jim is coming from on this one.
> 
> I am basing this on MY expiriences so if you disagree, so be it.




I have to agree. 

The British Army came and went from NI for decades, some of my peers completing up to 10-12 tours in less than 10 years (yes, that's more than one tour annually in some cases).  The best thing for keeping people motivated was trying to keep up with an agressive and exciting, well organized and led,  training plan. For example, I recall during my last tour, the almost constant circuit training going on for the post-tour battalion boxing competition. I even had patrol commanders, at the urging of the troops, leading longer and more difficult than normal patrols to build up their endurance!


----------



## OldSolduer

ArmyRick can attest to this. 

When we were in A Coy......the trg plan was unimaginitive. Referesher trg was conducted every day, same subjects every week. Sgts had NO input, and I don't think the WOs had much more. Troops hated being in A Coy.


----------



## dangerboy

But we did have lots of inspections.


----------



## ArmyRick

The best were the OC's inspections for living in pers by there beds at 0630 HRS, 1 hour before PT and no we did not f*ck up in anyway. Or the one fun week, we did approximately 4 or 5 full kit inspections, waiting for Brigadier general Jimmy Cox (comander 1 CMBG at the time) to come check us out. 

YEEEEE HAWWWWWWWWWWW, Boy was that fun!


----------



## OldSolduer

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> The best were the OC's inspections for living in pers by there beds at 0630 HRS, 1 hour before PT and no we did not **** up in anyway. Or the one fun week, we did approximately 4 or 5 full kit inspections, waiting for Brigadier general Jimmy Cox (comander 1 CMBG at the time) to come check us out.
> 
> YEEEEE HAWWWWWWWWWWW, Boy was that fun!





			
				dangerboy said:
			
		

> But we did have lots of inspections.



Yes we did. What did that do for retention? 

But we digress....... ;D

Edited to add: We need one of these.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

Kiwi99 said:
			
		

> I have said before that retention is our next battle.  How do we keep soldiers in the CF?  After talking with some Ptes and Cpls and even junior MCpls, having them freeze their junk off up north is not the way to do it.



Kiwi,

So what is the answer?


----------



## pbi

While I accept that a number of "hostilities only" folks will pack it in after Afgh (like they always do after any war), Jim Seggie and others have pointed out what will really kill retention, Arctic jaunts or not: a drift back to the bad old days of uninspired routine, picking up cigarette butts, days spent playing cards, hanging out in the lines, or skiving off at 1500hrs because there is literally nothing to do. That, and bad training that is pitched at the wrong level and tries to do 100 things half-assedly instead of a few things well.

There are literally hundreds of important, useful and satisfying things that soldiers can train on (especially those of us lucky enough to  be Inf-the skill range is so wide), and we have a generation of officers and NCOs who have not only served in combat but have seen some of the best training techniques the Army could offer, at all levels. IMHO we also need to start rebuilding things like Pioneers, Mortars and working on restoring a credible anti-armour capability to the Inf because, who knows what's next, or where, or against whom?

There is absolutely no excuse to slide back to the bad old days (and no, I don't consider reduced funding to be an excuse), but I fear that this is exactly what may happen.  The observation that we need to listen to the NCOs and WOs (especially with Cbt experience) is vital: in my experience training at company level lived or died by the quality of NCO input, motivation and "buy in". The more the NCOs "owned" the training, the better it was for everybody, including them.

I hope we remember all this stuff. In a small Army like ours, our great treasure is our people, and right now I think we have the finest crew we have had in a very long time.

Cheers


----------



## Kiwi99

PPCLI Guy....I simply do not know the answers....if there even are answers.  In my opinion we are all soldiers and we have a job to do and we better be damn well good and ready to do that. Those who find the 'non-war' times to be boring can easily put in their release and say good bye.

The obvious answer is money.  Lots and lots of money.  Does it work short term...Yes.  Will it work long term....No.  For years soldiers have talked about re-signing bonuses, and how they should be utilized.  In some ways they work for the CF as humans are inherently greedy by nature and young soldiers rarely think long term.  To offer a soldier a re-signing bonus of $5000 for three years will be applauded by all soldiers.  They will re-sign, take the money, and then six months later when they money is gone they will be back at square one.  So yes, short term (6months) we have happy soldiers committed to new contracts.  Long term (6 months and longer) we have disgruntled soldiers, sans $5000, knowing that they owe another 2.5 years.  Therefore, in my opinion, money is not the answer.

Pride.  That may work.  Soldiers are proud members of Canadian society.  They have done wonderful and brave things in Afghanistan.  They need to be able to get out amongst the public and tell their stories.  Not in a sense of 'oh look at me I did this', but in a  way that educates Canadians about the mission that they were part of.  Educating Joe Public about the capabilities of our military.  What we can do both within Canada and abroad.  This should not be left purely to senior officers  and the such.  But Pte Bloggins who was at the sharp end.  This may also serve a s a valuable recruiting tool.  It may seem trivial, but little things like the cancellation of the Combat Action Badge can be enough to make a soldier consider his career with the CF.  But it is the pettiness and internal bickering over why these things are canceled or not that really leaves a bad taste in the soldiers mouth.  His dress uniform, with medals etc is his resume.  It is a list of his achievements.  It tells people what he has done and where he has been.  Let it!  And if some other guy or girl gets bent out of shape because of what he is wearing, too bad.

Postings.  PLD and LDA are great things, but they have an adverse effect when a member is posted.  If he was in 1VP in Edmonton, a Sgt is making about an extra $1000 a month with PLD and LDA.  Post him to the infantry school and he loses that extra income that he has become accustomed to over the years, and it can be a big blow financially when it stops.  Cancel the PLD and LDA and pay members the same across Canada, regardless of cost of living.  If the member deploys to the field, then he gets field pay.  It is the members responsibility, in conjunction with his chain of command and clerks, to ensure that the paperwork is done and the member is paid accordingly for the time spent in the field.  Some good soldiers have become over reliant on these extra bonuses and the fear of not having them when posted is a huge concern.

Either way, we will lose people at all levels of rank and experience.  There could be a million ways to keep them in or their could be none.  Soldiers of all rank levels and trades should be actively involved in discussions on retention, not just senior positions.  With so many people it is obvious that not all will be happy.  Myself, I don't think it will be types or duration of training that will be the deal breaker, it will be the soldiers perception of their quality of life and how they are treated by both their chain of command and the Canadian public.


----------



## dogger1936

How to keep soldiers in.

#1. Instead of announcing deploying to the tundra as a way of keeping soldiers in; announce it as a noble thing to do protecting our sovernity. Otherwise it appears the army senior leadership has ZERO idea how to retain NCM's and NCO's. How many soldiers have heard "yeah thats a good way to retain me :" this week? How many snr NCO's had to explain to young troops our country sovernigty may not be glamourous and exciting but an important role. :nod:

All due to one SNR officer's speech which made him appear like he doesnt have a clue on retention.

#2. You want retention? Treat your injured good. Every injured soldier has 20 non injured friends who are watching the system mess him about and provide crap health care. Continue to treat them poorly...you got soldiers with no faith in our medical system or leadership to provide good care to our injured...it then brings the question what happens if that becomes me? Is this army worth it? I've been seeing this one first hand. Many of our troops are discusted with their treatment and the treatment of their friends. I've signed out at least 20 young guys this past month...more to come.


#3. Family time and don't be skimpy on the short days. Hold competitions and give the winners some short days. Nothing helps along training as friendly competition for a 4 day weekend. Soldiers like throphies....soldiers really train hard to win competitions when 2 days short are offered. This sounds common sense...but  I have yet to ever see it happen.


----------



## OldSolduer

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> How to keep soldiers in.
> 
> #2. You want retention? Treat your injured good. Every injured soldier has 20 non injured friends who are watching the system mess him about and provide crap health care. Continue to treat them poorly...you got soldiers with no faith in our medical system or leadership to provide good care to our injured...it then brings the question what happens if that becomes me? Is this army worth it? I've been seeing this one first hand. Many of our troops are discusted with their treatment and the treatment of their friends. I've signed out at least 20 young guys this past month...more to come.
> 
> 
> #3. Family time and don't be skimpy on the short days. Hold competitions and give the winners some short days. Nothing helps along training as friendly competition for a 4 day weekend. Soldiers like throphies....soldiers really train hard to win competitions when 2 days short are offered. This sounds common sense...but  I have yet to ever see it happen.



One hundred percent in agreement with point number 2. And point number three.


----------



## BDTyre

Technoviking said:
			
		

> I'll point out (again) that the highest temperature ever recorded in Kandahar was 42 point something degrees.
> 
> Of course, that's ambient air temperature, not factoring in things like humidity or the sun hitting you or even reflecting off the road, or in a tank or...
> 
> 
> But the press should at least qualify things like that...



The record I found was 43.8 - 44 for argument's sake. Another thing to keep in mind that average and record temperatures are always recorded at a single site (here in Canada, usually at the airport) and don't reflect local/regional variations. I'm fairly certain that my winter tour saw temperatures of 42 to 45, and I've had anecdotal evidence from a few summer tours of ~60-ish highs. That said, I don't know the context of those reports...but of course I've seen more than a few news articles stating that summer temps reach low 50s to nearly 60.

I'm sure those that have been there in the summer can address that properly.


----------



## Furniture

I did my tour in the summer over there and I can attest to the fact that it is unreasonably hot. The problem with many of the temperature figures that people are throwing around is that they aren't considered accurate for meteorological purposes. There are very specific ways that the temperature has to be measured to actually be considered offical. Two of the key mistakes people are making when they come up with the temps is they measure them near the ground, and they are in direct sunlight. When the temperature is measured at a proper weather station the thermometer is contained in a Stevenson Screen which provides shade and ensures that it is about one metre above the ground. The reason for this is so that temperatures anywhere in the world can be compared in a scientific way. 
I know my portable weather station was recording temps well below the 50+ guys were getting using their Canadian Tire thermometers placed in direct sunlight on a black tarp.


----------



## vonGarvin

WeatherdoG said:
			
		

> I did my tour in the summer over there and I can attest to the fact that it is unreasonably hot. The problem with many of the temperature figures that people are throwing around is that they aren't considered accurate for meteorological purposes. There are very specific ways that the temperature has to be measured to actually be considered offical. Two of the key mistakes people are making when they come up with the temps is they measure them near the ground, and they are in direct sunlight. When the temperature is measured at a proper weather station the thermometer is contained in a Stevenson Screen which provides shade and ensures that it is about one metre above the ground. The reason for this is so that temperatures anywhere in the world can be compared in a scientific way.
> I know my portable weather station was recording temps well below the 50+ guys were getting using their Canadian Tire thermometers placed in direct sunlight on a black tarp.


THANK YOU!  I was personally getting sick and tired of the "one-upmanship" on temps.  "It was 45"  "It was 50"....etc.  But, as I try to explain in my non-met trained way, was that the ambient air temp is measured as you say, and then the relative effects are based on a number of variables: humidity, sunlight, wind, sitting in a black suit on the tarmac, etc.  

For what it's worth, the highest temp ever recorded in Kandahar was around 42 or 43 degrees.  Which in itself is very hot.  Add the effects of working with plates, the humidity, the sun, it adds up.


----------



## PMedMoe

Technoviking said:
			
		

> For what it's worth, the highest temp ever recorded in Kandahar was around 42 or 43 degrees.  Which in itself is very hot.  Add the effects of working with plates, the humidity, the sun, it adds up.



True, although, humidity is fairly low in KAF.

http://www.timeanddate.com/weather/afghanistan/kandahar


----------



## Journeyman

Rider Pride said:
			
		

> The next "war for oil" (as our leftist friends tend to call it) and strategic area for the resources that are needed to supply the world's industries will be likely above the Arctic Circle.


There's a newly-available report from the Congressional Research Service (which informs US political decision-makers.....well, some of their staffers anyway), that provides some American perspective on this.

The five Arctic coastal states—the United States, Canada, Russia, Norway, and Denmark (of
which Greenland is a territory)—are in the process of preparing Arctic territorial claims for
submission to the Commission on the Limits of the Continental Shelf. The Russian claim to the
enormous underwater Lomonosov Ridge, if accepted, would reportedly grant Russia nearly onehalf
of the Arctic area. There are also four other unresolved Arctic territorial disputes.

The diminishment of Arctic ice could lead in the coming years to increased commercial shipping
on two trans-Arctic sea routes. Current international guidelines for ships operating in Arctic
waters are being updated, with a targeted completion date of 2010.

Changes to the Arctic brought about by warming temperatures will likely allow more exploration
for oil, gas, and minerals. Warming that causes permafrost to melt could pose challenges to
onshore exploration activities. Increased oil and gas exploration and tourism (cruise ships) in the
Arctic increase the risk of pollution in the region. Cleaning up oil spills in ice-covered waters will
be more difficult than in other areas, primarily because effective strategies have yet to be
developed.

The complete report, CRS "Changes in the Arctic: Background and Issues for Congress," 15 October 2010, is available here 

Despite all the rhetoric -- which may expand to sabre-rattling in time -- arctic operations, whether commercial or military, is a much more difficult problem than headline-writers in Ottawa or Washington understand.



And I think it's cute that CRS has to point out to Congress that Greenland belongs to Denmark  ;D


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Whether deployed or not, I gauge the temperature as soon as I walk out of a controlled environment.

First I look out the window. Lots of snow, no leaves on the trees, no dogs in the park. Is my car covered with frost or ice or snow?

Damn, it's cold out. Better dress appropriately.

First I look out the window. Lot's of kids playing. Have to cut the lawn. Wife wants plants for the porch, fucking dogs are shitting on my lawn.

Break out the Hawaiian shirt collection.

We had no AC when I deployed. Everything worked fine. Computers, printers, fridges and deep freezes. We had no air conditioning.  My office thermometer topped out at 140 degrees. I got climatised and lived with it, so did our equipment.

If you're on deployment, and you're living in a climate controlled condition where walking out on the porch is a suprise, or shock to your delicate disposition?

Perhaps you should rethink the reason or factors that led you to your decision to join our ex halted group of warriors.

You're supposed to be a soldier, with a warrior attitude, does someone really have to tell you how cold it is outside and how to survive in it?


----------



## George Wallace

recceguy said:
			
		

> Whether deployed or not, I gauge the temperature as soon as I walk out of a controlled environment.



Fairly good advice, and what I usually do for the most part.  Only time I didn't was when the Herc landed in Pond Inlet at zero dark thirty one December morning and the Ramp dropped.  Frack!   It got really COLD, really quick.


----------



## dogger1936

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Fairly good advice, and what I usually do for the most part.  Only time I didn't was when the Herc landed in Pond Inlet at zero dark thirty one December morning and the Ramp dropped.  Frack!   It got really COLD, really quick.



Or the transition from Dubai to Ottawa in december.....no soldier can adjust to that!!


----------



## daftandbarmy

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> Or the transition from Dubai to Ottawa in december.....no soldier can adjust to that!!



Once upon a time I traveled directly from a winter in eastern Norway (the coldest part of the country) where I was attending a 6 week long AWT course, with temps in the low minus 30s and 40s, to Oman where temps were in the high plus 30s/ low 40s. It sucked, but being a fit young lad I acclimatized quite fast. 

It helped that we headed fairly quickly, on foot, up into the Jebel Akhdar where temps at night dropped into the single digits. For some reason, I was nice and warm but few others were!  ;D

Over time it became apparent to me that the fitter you were, the faster you acclimatized. There were a bunch of medical studies out backing that theory that I read a couple of decades ago but can't put my hands on now.


----------



## Shamrock

recceguy said:
			
		

> You're supposed to be a soldier, with a warrior attitude, does someone really have to tell you how cold it is outside and how to survive in it?



Figuring out that being cold sucks is a fairly short learning curve.  Being instructed on how to mitigate that suck only does so much.  We, as a Force, should remain cognizant that a great deal of our recruits come from urban areas, one city being known for demanding the army come to its assistance at the first sign of snow.

Individual cold weather training is as essential as any other individual training. Imagine hearing, "I know stuff can be heavy, I know how to walk, therefore, my BFT should be written off."  But I'm not arguing for or against individual training.  I argue in favor of collective cold- and arctic training, where leaders learn the effects of cold on their troops and resources and how this influences how a mission is accomplished.

Can this be accomplished through abolishing basic winter indoc and basic arctic warfare but instead maintaining these as specialist courses at the unit (or higher) level?


----------



## OldSolduer

Shamrock said:
			
		

> Figuring out that being cold sucks is a fairly short learning curve.  Being instructed on how to mitigate that suck only does so much.  We, as a Force, should remain cognizant that a great deal of our recruits come from urban areas, one city being known for demanding the army come to its assistance at the first sign of snow.
> 
> Individual cold weather training is as essential as any other individual training. Imagine hearing, "I know stuff can be heavy, I know how to walk, therefore, my BFT should be written off."  But I'm not arguing for or against individual training.  I argue in favor of collective cold- and arctic training, where leaders learn the effects of cold on their troops and resources and how this influences how a mission is accomplished.
> 
> Can this be accomplished through abolishing basic winter indoc and basic arctic warfare but instead maintaining these as specialist courses at the unit (or higher) level?



First of all I agree. 
Second, we all need (Army wise at any rate) to be able to operate in winter. My opinion? Stop winter "idnoc" for trained winter warfare people. Go on winter ex for five days, like we used to for "winter Indoc"


----------



## Good2Golf

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Fairly good advice, and what I usually do for the most part.  Only time I didn't was when the Herc landed in Pond Inlet at zero dark thirty one December morning and the Ramp dropped.  Frack!   It got really COLD, really quick.



Try wobble pumping JP-4 into a helo in February in Pond Inlet (or Clyde River, or Grise Fjiord, or Eureka, or Alert, etc...)  Holy Jeebus!

 :-\


----------



## Journeyman

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Try wobble pumping JP-4 into a helo in February .....


    :warstory:


----------



## Good2Golf

Journeyman said:
			
		

> :warstory:



I know, I know...it's still not as hard as switching trades and classifications more often than APS's come and go...


----------



## DexOlesa

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Try wobble pumping JP-4 into a helo in February in Pond Inlet (or Clyde River, or Grise Fjiord, or Eureka, or Alert, etc...)  Holy Jeebus!
> 
> :-\



ahh the joys of northern flying.


----------



## GAP

Or lighting firepots under propane tanks at -40 (unnerving) , cause, at -40 propane is a liquid, not a gas, thus it can't flow to furnace.....


----------



## daftandbarmy

GAP said:
			
		

> Or lighting firepots under propane tanks at -40 (unnerving) , cause, at -40 propane is a liquid, not a gas, thus it can't flow to furnace.....



Right up there with blowtorching the Band Wagon http://www.pakistan-karachi.info/Bv_206


----------



## Good2Golf

GAP said:
			
		

> Or lighting firepots under propane tanks at -40 (unnerving) , cause, at -40 propane is a liquid, not a gas, thus it can't flow to furnace.....



Gord, that reminds me of the late-80's CF use of propane to power vehicles.  Images of propane-powered staff cars and duty vans stranded all over Cold Lake the first winter of service when the temp dipped below the -42.1C boiling point.  There were a few MSE ops jumping up and down on the bumpers to try and 'warm up' the propane to get a little vapour pressure.   :  They stayed in the fleet in Victoria and other warmer places for some time, but their life up North was pretty short.

CF use of alternative fuels...A for Effort, E for Execution. 

It would be interesting to see the Army/CF fleet of non-tac vehicles move to diesel/JP8 as well.  That would be single fuel and safe.


----------

