# Naval Reservist retention issues



## navymich (24 Jul 2006)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> RW: For me I would like to see the class get dedicated mission fits i.e 2 per coast being dedicated route survey/mine inspection ships; 2 per coast being dedicated mine sweepers; and 2 per coast being dedicated diving support ships and coastal patrol vessels.



Psst, wake up Ex-D, you're dreaming.... 

I can't comment on the East Coast, but for the West Coast, they are half-way there for your idea.  A few problems with having all of them dedicated though.  When you're sailing in support of your mission fit, there isn't a lot else that can be done i.e. MARS IV training, OJT etc.  And, as we are discovering this summer, it is tight to have enough crew for the 6th ship to be stood up.  And that is during the summer when there is more availability of sailors.  What happens come September to April when all of them return to school and civy jobs?


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## Sub_Guy (24 Jul 2006)

I understand that crewing is a problem, so how about considering Reg F personnel to fill the Shad positions!!    Seriously we have shads out on the heavy's, we have shads sitting at NRS eating cookies, why not reg force sailors on the MCDV?   I know we are short on the reg side of the house, but eventually we should get to where we want to be with the numbers.


Nothing against the shad comms I work with at NRS, but when I am told I am getting a LS, I get excited, then when I find out its a shad, I get brought back down to reality................  BUT the MWV fleet has been and is always the best to deal with.  I'm just jealous, as I would like a trip on one, I think sailing around the local area would be something to see.


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## Rhibwolf (24 Jul 2006)

Sub_Guy said:
			
		

> I understand that crewing is a problem, so how about considering Reg F personnel to fill the Shad positions!!    Seriously we have shads out on the Heavies, we have shads sitting at NRS eating cookies, why not reg force sailors on the MCDV?   I know we are short on the reg side of the house, but eventually we should get to where we want to be with the numbers.



Sub-guy, there is a reason we have shads in the heavies - we cant fill them with Reg F sailors.  We are more than just short, we are being bled white, and I can only hope that the next few years see an infusion of sorts.  A cursory look through the daily message files will highlight (nicely I might add) just how short we are in manning - on both coasts.  It seems that every ship that sails needs to pump out manning messages as part of flash up.
Ceteris paribus, if we were healthily overloaded in sailors, I'm sure that more than a few would jump at the chance to sail in a MCDV, they do have some nice summer excursions.


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## Sub_Guy (24 Jul 2006)

Sub_Guy said:
			
		

> I know we are short on the reg side of the house, but eventually we should get to where we want to be with the numbers.




That is why I mentioned that we are short, I see all the shortage messages, it is crazy........


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## mdh (25 Jul 2006)

> That is why I mentioned that we are short, I see all the shortage messages, it is crazy........



Just out of curiosity what's driving the exodus? Pay? Working conditions? Too many deployments? Or all of the above?  ???

I would have thought the navy would be an attractive alternative to young recruits who want to see a bit of the world - or is that just romantic sentiment on my part?

cheers, mdh


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## Sub_Guy (25 Jul 2006)

Its not just the reserves!! The reg force has the same problem.


I have no idea, what drives people away, some just hate being told what to do...

Others miss home/family/seek out better employment with better pay

I know in our trade they always say we are short, but we could quite easily trim our remar down on the ships anyway.  So we sail short and have 3 people sitting around doing nothing instead of 6


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## Rhibwolf (26 Jul 2006)

In addition to the reasons for being shorthanded in any given trade, the problem is compounded by pers who are unfit sea, unfit alongside.  Some trades have horrific numbers landed ashore, meaning that those able to sail are passed from ship to ship until they too are unfit, or simply quit.  The days of the mythical sea-shore ratio are now relegated to the rank of urban legend.  The only trades that I can see that do relatively well are the non-sea trades, where in theory there are hoardes of soldiers and airpersons who can be posted to ships.


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## Sub_Guy (26 Jul 2006)

You know what they should do, you should lose your sea pay as soon as you go unfit sea/alongside.  I have unfit pers working for me right now who have missed RIMPAC, but are still collecting sea pay......


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## Colin Parkinson (26 Jul 2006)

Likely it is difficult for many of the Reservists with skills to get time off as out here on the West Coast, most of the industry is crying out for trained people and can pay better than the military.


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## navymich (26 Jul 2006)

It is difficult for reserves to get time off from their civy jobs.  Whether it be because of the pay difference, their employers not letting them take the time, or time off not co-ordinating with courses/training.  It is getting better, thanks to  CFLC, but for every reserve that has an amazing boss (topping up pay, holding their job and seniority) there is the horror story about the one who gets fired because they want to go away on course.  Students have it a bit better, as they know when they will be available, and luckily many of the availability of positions coincides with this.

On the other side, many of the skilled reservists don't want to go away anymore.  They have have lots of sea time under their belts, coursing is complete, and they are settled in jobs/family life and/or schooling.  But as we all know, you lose your skills if you don't keep them updated, or, like always seems to happen, trades are modified and require upgrading.

Those above are the people that aren't on the ships.  Now looking at the ones who are.  You have the sailors that love it and will continue to do it until you drag them off, or they are promoted out of a position.  With the lack of people, you are able to jump from contract to contract, and many crew have been on an MCDV since they came out.  But with no sea-to-shore ratio for NavRes, you are running the risk of burnout, the sailing schedules can be absolutely hectic.  Effort is made to take qualified people and have them teach ashore, but if it is a posting, you lose your sea pay and get bumped down from Class C pay to Class B pay (difference of 15%), and many choose instead to continue on the ships, as they have grown accustomed to the money.

The original idea behind the 2 or 3 year posting on an MCDV was for a sailor to get trained and qualified, and then return to their home unit after their contract was done to pass on the knowledge to the people there.  This very rarely happens.  Contracts are being handed out like candy, with a new one received 6 months prior to your current one finishing.  Want to stay?  Great, here you go, welcome.  Outsiders say "if you're going to make a career out of it, join the reg force".  You get used to what you know, Class C reserves are making the same pay rate as reg force, and now that the pension is coming through, what is the difference?  Personally, I don't want to live my life contract to contract, wondering every time if this might be the year that there isn't one.  And many are finally waking up to this, and either CTing, or making the break to go to school, or back to school, or returning home and getting a civilian job.

I'm happy for my time as a reserve.  Very rarely have I not been able to get full-time employment when I wanted it.  I loved the trips, the money, the courses, the friends I made.  But, like anything else, you get out of it what you put into it.  I feel that I put my all into it, and therefore got out of it what I wanted.  But you still get the ones who come out for a good time and an easy time, and you realize that you've grown and it's time to move on and let the next generation take your place.  The pace on the MCDV is very hectic, and scheduling is not known very far in advance and is often less minute.  Great for the way reserves were, young and single.  But as the MCDVs grow older, so do the crews and you will find many with families now that are realizing that they need more stability in their lives and it's time to move on.  Unfortunately, it seems that this idea has hit more and more people and is spreading like wildfire, and thus the current mass exodus.


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## GAP (6 Aug 2006)

I have added this to this thread, as it seems to most related. The US DOD has worked out a program to top up the salaries of reservists/National Guard members who are called up. It does not directly relate to the CF except in concept/wishful thinking. 

just my 1.5 cents



> American Forces Press Service
> 
> WASHINGTON, Aug. 4, 2006 - The Defense Department this month kicked off a program to help prevent activated reservists and National Guardsmen from facing financial hardships.
> 
> ...


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## Leo791989 (6 Aug 2006)

Quick question to all in Navy or any recruiters here.
Is there shortage for MARS officers or it's a misconception. I've read most of the posts here and it seems like chances of gettng hired on as a Navy officer are pretty good.
any thoughts?


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## andpro (6 Aug 2006)

I hear all the time from people in the forces that the Navy is always needing MARS officers. I hear they have a tough time keeping them because the training is very tough, I guess that I'll see it when I get to that point though.


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## navymich (6 Aug 2006)

NavRes MARS Officers:

I'm not sure if they are short of them per se, but yes it is a difficult course.  Or rather, course*s*.  You also have no guarantee of a job afterwards either.  But then again, this is the reserves, and a typical reservist is there to serve a training night each week, occasional weekends during the year, and the summer months if they are available, and if there is a position for them.  Of course, with the MCDVs, your chances are greater now of having a 1, 2 or 3 year contract as a ship's officer.

There are only 5 Officers in the core crew of an MCDV: CO, XO, OpsO, NavO and DeckO.  As you go higher up the chain, you require extra courses, and of course experience and time in.  And if you think you can do the positions consecutively, you will fast find yourself burnt out, so add in some extra years either as a watch officer at PSS, or a CTO at Venture, or whatever else you might be able to pick up.

Taking the CO out of the equation, gives you 5 officers per ship, times 5 operational ships on each coast for a total of 50 MARS officers on the MCDVs.  Quite a few when you look at it in that perspective, and it seems like everywhere you turn you're tripping over another one.  But still, there are many ships sailing short-handed.  As with many trades, there are only the bodies available that are required for the billets.  Should someone happen to go on course, get hurt, or cancel their contract, it's a rush to get another qualified person.

For the new MARS officers coming in: if you are sure this is what you want to do, my hat off to you.  As much as I complain and joke about MARS, it is a thankless job and you've got a long road ahead of you.  Give it your all, ask for help when needed and keep your nose to the grindstone.  Watch and learn from the ship's officers while you're on MARS IV, and ensure that your home unit knows that you want to be employed full-time.  With all the work officers onboard do, they are always greatful to get a BWK onboard for awhile to take up some of the slack.  Be good at what you do, and your chances of getting a job increase.  Good luck!

(oh, and be thankful that I'm posted ashore soon....I can be a bit tough on the reqs I do for MARS IV  )


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## Cronicbny (13 Sep 2006)

navymich said:
			
		

> It is difficult for reserves to get time off from their civy jobs.  Whether it be because of the pay difference, their employers not letting them take the time, or time off not co-ordinating with courses/training.  It is getting better, thanks to  CFLC, but for every reserve that has an amazing boss (topping up pay, holding their job and seniority) there is the horror story about the one who gets fired because they want to go away on course.  Students have it a bit better, as they know when they will be available, and luckily many of the availability of positions coincides with this.



What CFLC is doing is commendable there have been, as you mention, many successes. Sadly, without legislation to back up the odd few "bad" situations, there really isn't any incentive for employers to be the nice guy. (WARNING: This is going to be a long post - please read on)



> On the other side, many of the skilled reservists don't want to go away anymore.  They have have lots of sea time under their belts, coursing is complete, and they are settled in jobs/family life and/or schooling.  But as we all know, you lose your skills if you don't keep them updated, or, like always seems to happen, trades are modified and require upgrading.



As you know, it has been increasingly difficult to get core crew members away for coursing since backfills are become more and more rare. Trade modification is only part of the problem - We're unable to manage refresher trg requirements with the sailing schedule let alone specialty courses (Mine Warfare, Route Survey, IT, COMSEC, Loan Holder, Custodian etc etc). Frankly, when a core crew member does finally call it quits (or more likely gets promoted or finishes their "one kick at the cat" in the senior billet) it's nearly impossible to find enough qualified people remaining onboard to fill secondary duties! Ack!



> Those above are the people that aren't on the ships.  Now looking at the ones who are.  You have the sailors that love it and will continue to do it until you drag them off, or they are promoted out of a position.  With the lack of people, you are able to jump from contract to contract, and many crew have been on an MCDV since they came out.  But with no sea-to-shore ratio for NavRes, you are running the risk of burnout, the sailing schedules can be absolutely hectic.  Effort is made to take qualified people and have them teach ashore, but if it is a posting, you lose your sea pay and get bumped down from Class C pay to Class B pay (difference of 15%), and many choose instead to continue on the ships, as they have grown accustomed to the money.



(/ranting stations) I think burnout is the least of our problems at the moment. Where's the career progression in doing the same job for 5, 6 or even 10 years? Sure, I love sailing and I love my job but at some point someone else should be taking over for me and I should be going off elsewhere right? Wrong. There isn't anywhere for a PO2 NCIOP (or BOSN or NAVCOMM etc etc) to go except to sea since most of the good shore billets are taken up with perpetually unfit pers who refuse to go back to sea (/generalization). Sure the pay reduction hits hard - and if you couple that with the MASSIVE taxes in a likely posting area (Quebec City) it quickly becomes a non-starter and serious demotivator. The sailing schedules ARE ridiculous and we're BLEEDING people - both to civvy street and more likely to the regular force. In the past six months fully 25% of our ships core crew billets have applied for (or are already gone) for CT - many of them SENIOR, experienced people who are more than happy to take significant rank reduction for less sailing, fewer duty watches and FAR fewer secondary duties.

Many people will continue to plug away on the ships - thank goodness! NO ONE in thier right mind wants a core crew billet on the MCDVs these days! Can you blame them? The old school benefits are all but gone. We're expected to comply with MARPAC direction in myriad areas - Risk Management, Force Protection, Training and Logistics to name a few - using the same rules that apply to ships with 6 to 8 times our crew levels. While it's great for LS Bloggins to be a CSD Loan Holder, RADHAZO, Departmental Training Coordinator and perhaps even Well or Bar Manager (or VPMC etc) it can be a little much in addition to standing 1/3 watches at sea and 1/2 foreign port duty watches. Additionally, we're sending MCDVs out solo more often than in the past to make port visits. Quite literally this puts the ship into a 1 in 2 rotation for duty... then tack on all the COMREL garbage for those who are off watch!

What we NEED to do is review ALL of our SOPS and amend some things to make to job palatable to more people. There are just as many people in the Reserves today as there were back when we had all 6 ships on the coast up! Anyone who thinks we have adequate manning to run 5 ships is seriously fooling themselves. We have finally hit the brick wall when it comes to manning and the only solution is to make the job, for lack of a better word, BETTER! Sure, we could have Reg Force pers augment us, which I am all in favour of. Sadly, they too will realize the ridiculousness that is MCDV life and they'll never come back unless things change. 

What I'm proposing here is a wholesale revamp of the way we do things in order to SAVE ourselves for the imminent (and I do mean imminent) collapse of the MCDV community.

1. Something needs to be done about the watch rotation in both home and foreign port (especially the latter). What? Make 5 ships nests in home port the norm at the very least or lock all the ships down daily and continue with Reduced Duty Watches. To solve the foreign port issues, we need to impress upon CANFLTPAC the importance of sending no less than 2 MCDVs to a port at a time.
2. Reduce the number of sailing days. Seems pretty basic doesn't it? Put people to sea LESS than 180 days and see what happens to morale. Suddenly everyone is able to do requisite refresher training, use annual leave without being FORCED to during block leave periods and spend some quality time with "the fam". Not only can they do all this, but they can do it in a less stressful timeframe.
3. We need to get rid of COMSEC and CSD Custodians on the boats (former happening) and MOG 4 should (rightfully) take over the duties of Program Coordinator and Flex Designer (strangely, they actually have a PLANSO on the East Coast... what a novel idea). This will, of course, require that the MOG actually "work". The MOG should also take on custodial responsibility for all ships when dealing with Risk Management and LOGREQ/Sailing Intentions/ORR. If anyone up the hill read our OPSUMS (besides the sections pertaining to what is broken) they could draft all of this crap on our behalf and Risk Management is a HUGE cluster because XO's and COXN's just don't have the time to make it a priority.... perhaps the SYO or UENVO should take care of it? Ooops... same people.
4. Immediately reduce to 4 standard readiness ships and sort out how many people we have and how many we need (NERVS MCDV perhaps?!!?) to sail them. Get everyone moving into long term billets and stop moving them hither and tither to do WUPS on different ships right after they just did a set. Who are we fooling?! The same 50 people have done WUPS 95 times... eventually MWVTRAINPAC will catch on... or someone will DIE.
5. Establish 31 (a whole ship worth) billets for BACKFILL so people on the ships can do courses, training and... oh gee I dunno... get time off when a family member dies or when they themselves get hurt. 
6. Get the NRD's moving on getting people shipboard qualifications during Class A night. I still don't understand why a person from an NRD can't be QM, DENG or SWK qualified when they get onboard. While we're at it... get them some BASIC force protection training... like have them hold a rifle for two minutes and MAYBE (crazy idea) familiarize them with Standing ROE and application of force.
7. Finally... get rid of Class B and Class C. Make it full time, or part time and pay people accordingly. I'll never understand why two LS Clerks working at the same shop make different cash... it's the SAME job. Frankly, we're asking for trouble with Class B anyhow - the limited liability *is* a liability at sea especially in the post 9/11 era. Funny enough there is a CANFORGEN that states all people serving on an MCDV are to be class C.... implemented? Nope.  

I could go on and on... but I'll spare everyone's eyes... Basically put *IF* we treat our people better maybe we can stem the tide of CT's and NATCANs and get our manning looking better.  (/secure ranting stations)



> The original idea behind the 2 or 3 year posting on an MCDV was for a sailor to get trained and qualified, and then return to their home unit after their contract was done to pass on the knowledge to the people there.  This very rarely happens.  Contracts are being handed out like candy, with a new one received 6 months prior to your current one finishing.  Want to stay?  Great, here you go, welcome.  Outsiders say "if you're going to make a career out of it, join the reg force".  You get used to what you know, Class C reserves are making the same pay rate as reg force, and now that the pension is coming through, what is the difference?  Personally, I don't want to live my life contract to contract, wondering every time if this might be the year that there isn't one.  And many are finally waking up to this, and either CTing, or making the break to go to school, or back to school, or returning home and getting a civilian job.



We (NAVRES) need to stop the fantasy of the "returning to the unit and spreading experience" sailor. People don't generally return... they either quit, stay on the coast or join the Regular Force. We need a comprehensive strategy to run these ships. If we can't demonstrate that we can do it - and do it well - we will go back to the (IMHO) "Bad Old Port Boat Days" of binge drinking and fleet recognized incompetance. I'm quite honestly proud of what we have managed to do with these ships and the professional and hard working crews we have formed over the last decade - It is an impressive accomplishment. We are on the very brink of losing our credibility simply based on manning issues and a systematic "bleed off" of our best and brightest.



> I'm happy for my time as a reserve.  Very rarely have I not been able to get full-time employment when I wanted it.  I loved the trips, the money, the courses, the friends I made.  But, like anything else, you get out of it what you put into it.  I feel that I put my all into it, and therefore got out of it what I wanted.  But you still get the ones who come out for a good time and an easy time, and you realize that you've grown and it's time to move on and let the next generation take your place.  The pace on the MCDV is very hectic, and scheduling is not known very far in advance and is often less minute.  Great for the way reserves were, young and single.  But as the MCDVs grow older, so do the crews and you will find many with families now that are realizing that they need more stability in their lives and it's time to move on.  Unfortunately, it seems that this idea has hit more and more people and is spreading like wildfire, and thus the current mass exodus.



Michelle, I think we (old timers) all see the problem. We just need someone with the cajones to tell NAVRES that it is FAR worse than they think and that they need to fix it. I'm almost to the point where I think CANFLTPAC should take over management of our little fleet and the MOG can return to the old Training Squadron days. The ENTIRE system - from career management and recruiting to materiel acquisition and personnel retention - needs to be massively overhauled. 

We cannot and must not accept a reduction in overall capability just so we can maintain an image of a 5 ship fleet. Whats more useful to a commander? 5 ships restricted to 12 hours a day at sea or 4 ships capable of 24/7 operations? I think the answer is pretty plain. I just hope someone tells COMCANFLTPAC and JTF(P) sooner rather than later that we're perilously close to an MCDV fleet incapable of meeting the objectives of MARS IV, Sar Zone and "other" Operational taskings. 

Miss ya on the boats... hope the new digs are treating you well.

LK


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## navymich (14 Sep 2006)

Cronicbny said:
			
		

> Miss ya on the boats... hope the new digs are treating you well.



Ahhh shucks, thanks.  Can't say I miss them too much, although I do miss many of the people.  I am definitely seeing how another side of the NavRes world lives, and I'm sure to be posting about that soon enough too.

Good to see you back on the boards, looking forward to reading more of your posts.  Stay strong (as I know you will) and don't back down (as I know you won't)!!


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## mdh (14 Sep 2006)

> What CFLC is doing is commendable there have been, as you mention, many successes. Sadly, without legislation to back up the odd few "bad" situations, there really isn't any incentive for employers to be the nice guy. (WARNING: This is going to be a long post - please read on)



A long post but an interesting post...

Please forgive the totally noob question from an army guy, but why doesn't the navy reserve operate as augmentees for the whole fleet rather than just operating the MCDVs? From the sounds of it the navy reserve isn't really a part-time "citizen's force at all, but a "Class B" force that pretty much rules out people who have committed civilian careers (at least over the long term). I know that it's hard enough to balance civvy and military work in the army reserve, but it sounds impossible with the NAVRES. 

Or is the regular fleet just too technologicially complex nowadays for part-timers and augmentees???

cheers, mdh


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## navymich (14 Sep 2006)

mdh, we were talking about that exact issue in another thread around here somewhere.  I'll see if I can track it down for you.


edited to add:

Here it is: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/49700.0.html.  And no, not a noob question at all, very valid in fact.  Have a read of that thread and feel free to ask if you have anything else, either here or on that one.


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## mdh (14 Sep 2006)

> mdh, we were talking about that exact issue in another thread around here somewhere.  I'll see if I can track it down for you.



Thanks Navymich! 

cheers, mdh


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## Cronicbny (24 Sep 2006)

mdh said:
			
		

> A long post but an interesting post...
> 
> Please forgive the totally noob question from an army guy, but why doesn't the navy reserve operate as augmentees for the whole fleet rather than just operating the MCDVs? From the sounds of it the navy reserve isn't really a part-time "citizen's force at all, but a "Class B" force that pretty much rules out people who have committed civilian careers (at least over the long term). I know that it's hard enough to balance civvy and military work in the army reserve, but it sounds impossible with the NAVRES.
> 
> ...



For whatever reason, the MCDVs were "given" to NAVRES to man exclusively (short of three reg force billets - since reduced to two). We basically have a requirement to man 29 billets on each ship (two positions are paid for by MARPAC here on the west coast though). If you have a fully manned ship (31) this still leaves plenty of space for the traditional "weekend warrior" or short term personnel. 

The technology isn't so much of a problem. The real issue is that by manning ships for 24/7 operations 365 days a year NAVRES has become the true definition of a "two tiered" force. Some thought was given to running the MCDVs with a much smaller custodial crew with short term personnel taking them to sea whenever they had enough time. (Imagine if you will a Reserve Division weekend trip or something to that effect). While the idea would bring us more in line with the true definition of a reserve force... there are a few problems:

1) Both Formations (MARLANT/PAC) are, quite frankly, too used to having extra hulls to do all the little stuff and MARS IV courses. Losing this capability would cause FFH/DDH sailing days to go up significantly in the immediate future - in the long term, once FELEX is really engaged it will be simply impossible for either formation to meet even the most basic requirements
2) After a set of WUPS a "Standard Readiness" MCDV is expected to be able to safely perform certain tasks (SAR, Towing, Gunnery, RMP Compilation, Mine Warfare <Route Survey, BOIV, Clearance Diving> etc) some of which require personnel with specific expertise few (if any) people at the Reserve Divisions have. It would be impossible for a custodial crew of, say 10 or 15 to accomplish this tasks without significant augmentation... and even then, once the "augmentees" are gone... so too will be Sea Trainings comfort level - and likely the Standard Readiness moniker (Reduced readiness A la HMCS Nanaimo this summer for example).

I could go on... but suffice to say that there is still plenty of opportunity for part-timers to come out to sea and grind some of the rust off thier skills. We just don't see it very much anymore except for "Reserve Division" sailing periods which are specifically designed to take a bunch of part time folks our during times they're more likely to be available (March Break, just after school finishes before Summer etc). Sadly, those weeks are designed more for the students rather than the 9-5ers working on civvie street.


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