# Ontario Election: New riding and choices.



## Remius (1 May 2018)

So it should be no surprise that Ontario is about to have an election.  I like many have grown tired of the Wynne government.  I was tired last time and the time before that but it is what it is. 

I happen to be in an interesting situation.  I am not a fan of Doug Ford.  I don't think he has a good grasp of issues or at least the complexities of certain issues and not a fan of populist style politics.  I was really hoping that one of the more moderate candidates would be leading the party but again, it is what it is now.  

Now, my current MPP is one I like.  She is a PC.  I was willing to vote for her because as much as I am nota  fan of Ford, I'm even less of a fan of Wynne. Someone once said to look at the candidates instead of the leader. I have done that in the past in another riding where federally I was not a fan of the liberals but really liked my Liberal MP.  so I figure I can do the same provincially since I like my current PC MP. 

Except I found out that I'm in a new riding.  New people, new candidates.  I only found out because the PC candidate knocked at my door courting my vote. 

She was a bit pushy asking me straight off the bat for my support.  So looking at my candidate a bit further I found two things of interest.

This:
 http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/ontario-pcs-close-investigation-into-claims-against-lanark-mpp

and more disturbing is this:

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/reevely-intra-conservative-battle-in-carleton-spills-into-the-open

So the liberal candidate is a spouse of a city councillor and is very involved in the community. 

So what to do?  Some people here hold up the Rebel as a worthy news source yet that news source says that my conservative candidate is bad and that I shouldn't support her.  (don't worry I don't follow the rebel or believe them, but I would like to know from those that do if she is someone I should vote for).  My current MPP doesn't like her either so maybe that should push me to vote for the Liberal candidate? 

So I really don't want to vote Wynne in. And I'm no fan of Ford (mind you he does seem pretty disciplined)
Many here have said to look at the candidates.  Ok, but the PCs don't even like the one they picked.  The Liberal candidate seems ok.

I'm a self described red tory so forget the Alliance party or the Trillium party.  I have yet to see an NDP candidate.  There is the None of the Above Party running.  Maybe that's who would get my vote.  

Campaigns matter. It's what I told my PC candidate and why I'm still on the fence but leaning away from the Liberals.

I guess I'll see what the all candidate debates look like.

Don't worry, this post is more for musings about the conundrum many voters will face rather than an appeal for help in choosing.


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## mariomike (1 May 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> I am not a fan of Doug Ford.



You are not alone. Two-thirds voted against him in the mayoral election.


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## Retired AF Guy (1 May 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> You are not alone. Two-thirds voted against him in the mayoral election.



That would be two-thirds of Toronto voters.


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## mariomike (1 May 2018)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> That would be two-thirds of Toronto voters.



Yes. That is why I said,



			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> Two-thirds voted against him in the mayoral election.



Should have said, "...the _Toronto_  mayoral election."


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## Retired AF Guy (1 May 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Yes. That is why I said,
> 
> Should have said, "...the _Toronto_  mayoral election."



My apologies, its been a long day.


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## mariomike (1 May 2018)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> My apologies, its been a long day.



No problem. Thank-you.


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## FJAG (1 May 2018)

Personally if your disgust with Wynne and her mob is as strong as mine, you'll hold your nose and vote PC regardless. I thought her bunch was going to be voted out in the last election and was shocked when they weren't. I'm not a fan of Ford either and I appreciate the fact that your local candidate may not be the best fit either but, that said, every vote counts.

 :cheers:


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## Brad Sallows (2 May 2018)

How can anyone know whether a voter votes "against" a candidate rather than "for" a candidate, unless the voter says so?


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## mariomike (2 May 2018)

Good point.


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## Remius (2 May 2018)

FJAG said:
			
		

> Personally if your disgust with Wynne and her mob is as strong as mine, you'll hold your nose and vote PC regardless. I thought her bunch was going to be voted out in the last election and was shocked when they weren't. I'm not a fan of Ford either and I appreciate the fact that your local candidate may not be the best fit either but, that said, every vote counts.
> 
> :cheers:



It is.  But a good chunk of PC supporters are saying that the PC candidate is a terrible choice and even some of the established riding association staff have left.  So do I vote for good MP or vote for party with a leader I don't like?  I guess it depends on who my vote benefits.  If I vote for NOTA party does that benefit the liberals or the conservatives?  It's a new riding so I don't know.  the liberals are desperate and on life support, it seems that any vote that does not support them will hurt me more in the grand scheme.  FYI I am not voting liberal.  At all.  I just have yet to decide if I should vote PC.


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## walrath (2 May 2018)

Focusing on the person who represents you and your actual riding instead of a leader who has little fidelity on specific issues pertaining to provincial governance and how it affects your riding is one of many appropriate ways to look at voting. 

I was quite ready to give the PC's a go in 2018 as I'm progressive conservativ-y.
However I always start with the candidate who represents my riding, and they handled that poorly. Then there is Doug Ford, so maybe next election!

I've been reading up lately to figure out how I'll go. 

I don't like the Liberal Candidate.
The NDP Candidate is strong, and looks to do a good job for my riding
The PC Candidate was appointed, and does not inspire confidence
 The NOTA Candidate appeals to my voter apathy 

Good Luck!


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## FJAG (2 May 2018)

I'm probably older than most on this thread and hence have a personality where cynicism is one of my major traits.

Back when I was young--my first election in fact--I voted for Pierre Trudeau's Liberals because he called me out to stand guard with a rifle in Quebec against the FLQ. "Just watch me" did it for me. Stanfield was boring. Unfortunately I little appreciated what he was about to do to the country in general and the military in particular. In 72 he won by a very narrow margin and sometimes I have nightmares that it might have been my vote that put him back into power.

These days I don't worry so much about how much the candidate can do for the riding because if the candidate's party isn't in power then there's nothing of value he/she can do anyway. Even a poor candidate with the party in power can accomplish more for his/her riding that a good candidate who stands in opposition.

I'm not a Ford Nation kind of guy but I'm a rabid anti-Liberal when it comes to Ontario. I live within a small Liberal hotbed within a solid Conservative riding with a fairly decent MPP who has represented the riding since 2011 so it's a pretty easy choice for me.

Best of luck

 :cheers:


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## observor 69 (3 May 2018)

I will never vote for Doug Ford. He is uninformed on the issues, IMHO is a bully and has the wrong temperament to run the province of Ontario. During my liberal MPP's time in office several major important projects have been completed in the riding.
But I believe the Ontario Liberal party needs time out to recharge and let the democratic process unfold.
Unfortunately the Ont. PC party badly stumbled when it did not elect Christine Elliott as leader. So vote Liberal for a party that according to the polls will likely not win or for a Premier who I hold no respect for.
Or vote Liberal "pour encourager les autres" the next time around.


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## Remius (3 May 2018)

Baden Guy said:
			
		

> I will never vote for Doug Ford. He is uninformed on the issues, IMHO is a bully and has the wrong temperament to run the province of Ontario. During my liberal MPP's time in office several major important projects have been completed in the riding.
> But I believe the Ontario Liberal party needs time out to recharge and let the democratic process unfold.
> Unfortunately the Ont. PC party badly stumbled when it did not elect Christine Elliott as leader. So vote Liberal for a party that according to the polls will likely not win or for a Premier who I hold no respect for.
> Or vote Liberal "pour encourager les autres" the next time around.



And this is the problem.  If Christine Elliott had won I wouldn't even be having this conversation.


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## George Wallace (3 May 2018)

Baden Guy said:
			
		

> I will never vote for Doug Ford. He is uninformed on the issues, IMHO is a bully and has the wrong temperament to run the province of Ontario. During my liberal MPP's time in office several major important projects have been completed in the riding.
> But I believe the Ontario Liberal party needs time out to recharge and let the democratic process unfold.
> Unfortunately the Ont. PC party badly stumbled when it did not elect Christine Elliott as leader. So vote Liberal for a party that according to the polls will likely not win or for a Premier who I hold no respect for.
> Or vote Liberal "pour encourager les autres" the next time around.



I'm not sure that just this attitude is what will guarantee yet another Wynne Government.  

Personally, I am bit of a rebel and would like to see the Liberal Party devastated in the next election, even to the state of extinction.  Both the McGuinty and Wynne Governments have reeked of corruption in my opinion and if they cannot be brought to justice through the legal system, then they should be brought to justice through the electoral system.  Even though my Riding representative may have brought some benefits to our Riding, it has to be examined as what it really is; vote buying.  Small contributions to a Riding do not excuse the overall waste and corruption exhibited by the past two decades of Liberal Government in Ontario.


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## Oldgateboatdriver (3 May 2018)

Yet one more demonstration that Tom Bentley was right in his book _Everyday democracy: why we get the politicians we deserve_.

P.S.: You fooled us FJAG. We all thought that cynicism was one of you major personality trait because you were a lawyer ... never figured it had to do with your age.     ;D

 :cheers:


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## observor 69 (3 May 2018)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I'm not sure that just this attitude is what will guarantee yet another Wynne Government.
> 
> Personally, I am bit of a rebel and would like to see the Liberal Party devastated in the next election, even to the state of extinction.  Both the McGuinty and Wynne Governments have reeked of corruption in my opinion and if they cannot be brought to justice through the legal system, then they should be brought to justice through the electoral system.  Even though my Riding representative may have brought some benefits to our Riding, it has to be examined as what it really is; vote buying.  Small contributions to a Riding do not excuse the overall waste and corruption exhibited by the past two decades of Liberal Government in Ontario.


My MPP has been a major player in millions being spent to improve the medical services of one of our cities hospitals. He has championed numerous improvement of Go train service as it affects the commuters in our riding.
This is the sort of "vote buying" that he was elected to do. Working in the best interests of his constituents.


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## Lumber (3 May 2018)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Even though my Riding representative may have brought some benefits to our Riding, it has to be examined as what it really is; vote buying.



Vote buying is only a bad thing if it's nothing but lies and empty promises. If the politicians actually go through with real changes and improvements, then it doesn't matter what their underlying motivation is. A good deed is a good deed even if the underlying motivation was selfish. "No thanks, I don't want the free day care because you're just using it to get my vote". Nope.


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## mariomike (3 May 2018)

Baden Guy said:
			
		

> I will never vote for Doug Ford.



I voted Ford Nation in 2010. But, not in 2014.


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## FJAG (3 May 2018)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Yet one more demonstration that Tom Bentley was right in his book _Everyday democracy: why we get the politicians we deserve_.
> 
> P.S.: You fooled us FJAG. We all thought that cynicism was one of you major personality trait because you were a lawyer ... never figured it had to do with your age.     ;D
> 
> :cheers:



If truth be told I was a cynic long before I became a lawyer or became old.

I think I became a lawyer because I was a cynic.

Not sure if being a gunner first led to the development of my cynicism.

 ;D


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## Blackadder1916 (3 May 2018)

FJAG said:
			
		

> If truth be told I was a cynic long before I became a lawyer or became old.
> 
> I think I became a lawyer because I was a cynic.
> 
> ...



Really?  Well, I suppose that's why there are lawyer jokes.  I would have thought that "skepticism" rather than "cynicism" is the appropriate trait of the legal profession since it is about the truth of things.  A skeptic doesn't believe anything without strong reasons, which is why it is also associated with doubt (reasonable or otherwise).  Cynicism is believing the worst of something or someone.  It has nothing to do with evidence.  Now, a lawyer's clients, once having dealings with the profession, is usually justified in being cynical.  The same would hold with age, once you experience the shit that happens it is easy to believe the worst of someone.


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## FJAG (3 May 2018)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Really?  Well, I suppose that's why there are lawyer jokes.  I would have thought that "skepticism" rather than "cynicism" is the appropriate trait of the legal profession since it is about the truth of things.  A skeptic doesn't believe anything without strong reasons, which is why it is also associated with doubt (reasonable or otherwise).  Cynicism is believing the worst of something or someone.  It has nothing to do with evidence.  Now, a lawyer's clients, once having dealings with the profession, is usually justified in being cynical.  The same would hold with age, once you experience the crap that happens it is easy to believe the worst of someone.



The two aren't mutually exclusive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynicism_(contemporary)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skepticism

I tend to reserve cynicism for politics and religion. My skepticism runs more broadly.

 ;D


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## Remius (9 May 2018)

Sigh...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/doug-ford-debate-protesters-1.4653301

So, I really don't know why or even if there is a need to hire actors to show up for anything. 

Maybe voting for the NOTA party is a good choice this time around.


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## mariomike (9 May 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> Sigh...
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/doug-ford-debate-protesters-1.4653301
> 
> ...



QUOTE

'We don't need to pay anyone,' Progressive Conservative leader told reporters

END QUOTE

Councillor Doug handing out, "$20 dollar holla's" in Ward 2.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ckIcOiJyH4

Hopefully Doug will have a better attendance record with the province than he did with the city,

QUOTE

Doug Ford had third-worst attendance, missed 53 per cent of 2014 city council votes
https://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/toronto2014election/2014/09/16/doug_ford_had_thirdworst_attendance_missed_53_per_cent_of_2014_city_council_votes.html

Only veterans Giorgio Mammoliti (49 per cent) and Ron Moeser (39 per cent) were worse, and both were suffering health problems for part of the term.

END QUOTE

Councillor Mammoliti had brain surgery.  Councillor Moesser was battling cancer, and has since passed away.

Doug accused a reporter of a 'Gotcha Question' for asking him to explain how a bill becomes law in Ontario,
https://globalnews.ca/news/4197277/doug-ford-bill-becomes-law/


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## Brad Sallows (10 May 2018)

If it turns into an "ABF" ("ABC") campaign, early indications are that you'll get NDP.  Not much space left to indulge in the luxury of a non-Conservative protest vote while still hoping for a Conservative government.


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## Fishbone Jones (10 May 2018)

There's always been an ABF faction, even amongst Conservatives. I'm not worried. Horvath's platform is pretty well the same as Wynne's. Dumping billions into social programs. Horvath's idea of making us a Sanctuary province will cost us billions more and kill anything left of Ontario. There is still enough voters that remember the NDP goverment and Rae Days. I think it might be a couple of more election cycles before that goes away. Horvath hasn't been able to capitalize in three elections, even against Hudak. I don't think it'll be different this time. Probably make official opposition though. Ford needs to stop being distracted by Wynne. If he's arguing with her, he cant get his message out. Which is exactly what she wants to do. She knows no one believes her, so she doesn't need her message. Ford needs to shed his stage fright.

I'm not even going to worry about it. What happens, happens. I'll start to decide what to do the day after the election. Things are looking better and better across the river from me.


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## Lumber (10 May 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Probably make official opposition though.



Disagree (respectfully). There are enough that remember Bob Rae, enough ABCs, enough anti-TrumpFord types, and enough staunch liberals supporters that I believe, the Liberals will have opposition status, with a possibility of them even keeping a minority gov.

To be clear, I said a possibility... I didn't say how big...


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## Fishbone Jones (11 May 2018)

I've got no crystal ball, so your guess is as good as mine. We'll just have to wait and see.

My biggest hope is if the grits fall below status that Ford closes them down.


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## FJAG (11 May 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> . . .
> I'm not even going to worry about it. What happens, happens. I'll start to decide what to do the day after the election. . . .



Ditto. 

I've lived under an NDP government in Manitoba and didn't die and after Nov 8th, 2016, I think I can handle just about anything. (Well, maybe not another Wynne majority but I've learned never to trust Toronto--a sad statement from a Scarborough boy)

 :cheers:


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## mariomike (11 May 2018)

FJAG said:
			
		

> I've lived under an NDP government in Manitoba and didn't die



I remember the Ontario NDP Social Contract aka Rae Days,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Contract_(Ontario)
"The Social Contract was a 1993 initiative of the provincial Ontario New Democratic Party government of Bob Rae to impose austerity measures on the civil service. The plan imposed a wage freeze and mandatory unpaid days of leave for civil servants, which became known as Rae Days."

We lost 144 hours regular pay. But, gained 144 hours OT at time-and-a-half.



			
				FJAG said:
			
		

> after Nov 8th, 2016, I think I can handle just about anything.  :cheers:


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## Altair (22 May 2018)

And so it begins. The fluid vote on the left is starting to coalesce around a winner.
https://globalnews.ca/news/4222975/ontario-election-pcs-ndp-tied-ipsos-poll/


> If the election were held tomorrow, 37 per cent of decided voters in Ontario would vote NDP, up two points since last week, according to a new Ipsos poll conducted on behalf of Global News. Thirty-six per cent would vote for the PCs, which is down four points since last week.
> 
> The poll suggested that Doug Ford’s “Tory tumble” was largely due to eroding support in the 905-region of Toronto. Typically those with this area code live in some of Toronto’s populous suburbs, including Mississauga, Vaughan, Newmarket, Richmond Hill and Durham.
> 
> “Conservatives usually tend to be strong in 905 area, and it disappeared in this poll,” Bricker said. The collapse of Liberal party support in the area is probably the reason why NDP are gaining ground in the area, he added.


This could only happen under doug ford. Mulroney or Elliot, the conservative party walks with this election, ford, the vote on the left starts to shift.

Ontario conservatives,potentially grabbing defeat from the jaws of victory once again.


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## Infanteer (22 May 2018)

From the article:



> However, a big question remains: can any of the parties can get voters to turn up on election day?
> 
> “We know that certain groups have a stronger tendency to participate [on election day] and those people tend to be conservative,” Bricker said.
> 
> “The people who are less sure of their choice and less likely to participate are voting for the NDP. So can Andrea Horwath galvanize the support she has? A low turn out in the election will be an advantage for the Conservatives,” he added.



Ford just has to continue to appeal to a base, whereas Horwath needs to get people out to vote and decide that she and her party are their first choice.


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## Altair (22 May 2018)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> From the article:
> 
> Ford just has to continue to appeal to a base, whereas Horwath needs to get people out to vote and decide that she and her party are their first choice.


If the numbers stay the way they are, sure.

If the Liberal vote collapses further and their voters see the NDP as the best ABF vehicle, no.


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## Remius (22 May 2018)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> From the article:
> 
> Ford just has to continue to appeal to a base, whereas Horwath needs to get people out to vote and decide that she and her party are their first choice.



Maybe.  Ford's issue is that he has no room to grow. 

I see a few issues.

1) Disaffected liberals will more likely choose they NDP over the PC.  Altair alluded to it.  U nder any other moderate leader the PCs would have walked away with this election.

2) Internal party strife.  Many PCs are still unhappy with how the nomination races went.  In my riding a lot of the established PC volunteers aren't coming out and in fact some have moved toe Trilium party candidate.  Those that supported Tanya Grannic Allen for example might just stay home now that she's been kicked to the curb.

3) The NDP seem to have momentum.  That could be an issue. 

So a PC minority?  Or an NDP minority with liberals shoring them up to keep what little power they can get? 

What should have been an easy contest is turning into a real race.


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## Infanteer (22 May 2018)

I've seen too many weird elections in the last few years to settle for those kinds of predictions.  People were saying the same thing about Donald Trump in the U.S.  "Hillary has momentum.  The GOP is suffering from internal party strife.  Disaffected Republicans will stay home."


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## Remius (22 May 2018)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> I've seen too many weird elections in the last few years to settle for those kinds of predictions.  People were saying the same thing about Donald Trump in the U.S.  "Hillary has momentum.  The GOP is suffering from internal party strife.  Disaffected Republicans will stay home."



Actually the same was being said about the Democrats.  Sanders supporters staying home etc. 

The point is that this race should not even be this close.  The fact that the NDP is even a contender is an indication that any prediction can be thrown out.

The big edge that Ford will have though is that conservative voters do tend to show up at the polls.  A low voter turn out might help him on election day. 

Alberta and BC elected NDP governments after being annoyed with the ruling party...


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## Altair (22 May 2018)

Another thing in that article was people saying they didn't believe anyone could beat the conservatives.

Now that this poll is out, it's going to wake people up to the fact that it's a real race now.

And those who don't want Ford now know where to park their vote.

I'll be interested in what polls look like in a week after people on the left realize that Ford isn't a done deal.

If I were to predict, the Liberal support will collapse another 5 points, the PCs will hold steady and the NDP will be just below 40.

Why the PCs didn't choose Mulroney or Elliot is beyond me. This was their best chance in years and they went with Doug Ford.


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## observor 69 (22 May 2018)

FYI:

Éric Grenier‏Verified account @EricGrenierCBC · 29 minutes ago

New data from Ipsos/Global News (May 18-21): 37% NDP (+2 since May 14), 36% PC (-4), 23% LIB (+1), 4% GRN/OTH (+1).


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## Infanteer (22 May 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> The point is that this race should not even be this close.  The fact that the NDP is even a contender is an indication that any prediction can be thrown out.
> 
> The big edge that Ford will have though is that conservative voters do tend to show up at the polls.  A low voter turn out might help him on election day.
> 
> Alberta and BC elected NDP governments after being annoyed with the ruling party...



I don't know why you would say the race should not even be close.  The NDP won in Alberta and B.C. because people were annoyed with the ruling party.  It seems that people in Ontario are annoyed with the ruling party, so it seems logical that the NDP offer an alternative.



			
				Altair said:
			
		

> Why the PCs didn't choose Mulroney or Elliot is beyond me. This was their best chance in years and they went with Doug Ford.



Lol.  Replace PC with "GOP" and Mulroney or Elliot with "Cruz or Jeb Bush" and you are essentially replaying what I've heard in the US for the last year or two.  I'm not comparing Ford to Trump, only pointing out that "unelectable politicians" are actually quite electable.

I just see a lot of "conventional logic" being posted, when the last few years of national and sub-national politics has indicated that it isn't true or universal.


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## Altair (22 May 2018)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> I don't know why you would say the race should not even be close.  The NDP won in Alberta and B.C. because people were annoyed with the ruling party.  It seems that people in Ontario are annoyed with the ruling party, so it seems logical that the NDP offer an alternative.
> 
> Lol.  Replace PC with "GOP" and Mulroney or Elliot with "Cruz or Jeb Bush" and you are essentially replaying what I've heard in the US for the last year or two.  I'm not comparing Ford to Trump, only pointing out that "unelectable politicians" are actually quite electable.
> 
> I just see a lot of "conventional logic" being posted, when the last few years of national and sub-national politics has indicated that it isn't true or universal.


without going too much into American politics,  it can be said that American voters didn't know what they were getting with trump. Populist leaders around the world since then have failed to replicate trumps success,  maybe due to the fact that the voting public want nothing to do with what they are seeing in America. 

That said,  Ontario is not America,  the NDP are not the liberals or democrats,  and the conservatives are not the GOP. 

Ford could still win this,  Mulroney and Elliot might have lost,  but everything in the polls months ago and now repeat the same theme. Elliot and Mulroney were less devisive and as moderates were able to court voters outside the base far better than ford. 

As such,  they would have been far better positioned to fend off a NDP surge in the late stages of a election campaign. 

Ford now needs to hope that the liberals don't collapse completely,  because liberal voters looking for a second choice are not going to be voting for him.


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## brihard (22 May 2018)

Heh. The page’s ads are making a funny.


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## Furniture (22 May 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> Ford could still win this,  Mulroney and Elliot might have lost,  but everything in the polls months ago and now repeat the same theme. Elliot and Mulroney were less devisive and as moderates were able to court voters outside the base far better than ford.
> 
> As such,  they would have been far better positioned to fend off a NDP surge in the late stages of a election campaign.
> 
> Ford now needs to hope that the liberals don't collapse completely,  because liberal voters looking for a second choice are not going to be voting for him.



The alternative view point is maybe seeing a NDP surge will chase less far-left Liberal supporters to the PC camp because they remember, or have been fed horror stories about the Bob Rae NDP days.

I'm curious to see how this election turns out, even if the NDP win I'm only stuck here for a bit less than three years now. Even the NDP with the "sanctuary" province virtue signalling shouldn't be able to mess things up too bad in that time...


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## Fishbone Jones (22 May 2018)

I think Horvath may have scared off a lot of voters, NDP and Grit, with her sanctuary province promise. A lot of people ran the other way as fast as possible, when she floated that. Plus, every couple of days, the MSM seems to find another whack job, dipper candidate, with a ridiculous SJW mantra of their own, that just makes the party look like escapees from the loony bin..

The grits just look like thieves and gangsters and they are finished anyway. 

But the dippers? They just keep climbing out of that clown car, keeping their craziness on the front page.

I'd almost bet Doug Ford could die, two days before the election, and he'd still win.


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## Remius (22 May 2018)

Furniture said:
			
		

> The alternative view point is maybe seeing a NDP surge will chase less far-left Liberal supporters to the PC camp because they remember, or have been fed horror stories about the Bob Rae NDP days.
> 
> I'm curious to see how this election turns out, even if the NDP win I'm only stuck here for a bit less than three years now. Even the NDP with the "sanctuary" province virtue signalling shouldn't be able to mess things up too bad in that time...



If that were the case we would see a bump in the PC numbers but instead they have gone down.  they may just stay home too.

At this time though I feel that Ford has the right number 40% or so and has entrenched ridings that will be hard if not impossible for the NDP to budge.  It's the swing ridings that will decide if this will be a majority or a minority PC government.  the NDP could pull it off but would have to keep the surge going.  I'm not sure that can happen but then again I thought this election was locked in earlier.

Either way the liberals are out and that's fine by me.


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## mariomike (22 May 2018)

Furniture said:
			
		

> Even the NDP with the "sanctuary" province virtue signalling shouldn't be able to mess things up too bad in that time...



For reference to the discussion,

QUOTE

Toronto Sun

PC Leader Doug Ford voted in favour of these actions while on Toronto council, so Hussan expects he would not oppose doing so at the provincial level.
http://torontosun.com/news/provincial/ndps-sanctuary-ontario-must-have-broad-reach-activist-says

The PCs did not provide comment when asked about Ford’s position on a sanctuary province, and the Liberals did not respond when asked their views on the NDP proposal.

END QUOTE


----------



## Remius (22 May 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> For reference to the discussion,
> 
> QUOTE
> 
> ...



Hmn.  Interesting...

Makes me wonder if this might be a trap.

That being said I suppose what is good for someone's city ward may not be so good for a whole province?  Different crowd different point of view?


----------



## mariomike (22 May 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> Hmn.  Interesting...



Since you are interested, this was the source,
http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2013.CD18.5


----------



## Loachman (22 May 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> it can be said that American voters didn't know what they were getting with trump.



Sure, anything can be said.

I watched the past Glorious US Election very closely, and far more people knew "what they were getting" with now-President Trump than you would think by watching the mainstream media.



			
				Altair said:
			
		

> Populist leaders around the world since then have failed to replicate trumps success



Viktor Orbán. Yuge majority.



			
				Altair said:
			
		

> maybe due to the fact that the voting public want nothing to do with what they are seeing in America.



Voting publics everywhere just hate tax cuts, wage increases, more jobs, not being fined because they do not want to pay exorbitant costs for health care that will not benefit them, the first real prospect of resolving the Korean situation...



			
				Altair said:
			
		

> Elliot and Mulroney were less devisive and as moderates



"Moderates". Blecchh. I am sick of "moderates" who do not know what they stand for, if anything, and accomplish nothing useful whatsoever. Ontario's best years in my lifetime were those when Mike Harris was premier.



			
				Altair said:
			
		

> they would have been far better positioned to fend off a NDP surge in the late stages of a election campaign.



I seriously doubt that. They failed to inspire.


----------



## Remius (22 May 2018)

Loachman said:
			
		

> "Moderates". Blecchh. I am sick of "moderates" who do not know what they stand for, if anything, and accomplish nothing useful whatsoever. Ontario's best years in my lifetime were those when Mike Harris was premier.



The irony of that statement is that Mike Harris banished most if not all social conservatives to his backbenches... 

The fact that Doug Ford got rid of Tanya Grannic Allen and the PC party seemingly limiting their involvement in local debates indicates they are trying to keep a more moderate point of view.   A good strategy in my mind.


----------



## Infanteer (22 May 2018)

I would consider myself a moderate, and I know what I stand for.


----------



## Remius (22 May 2018)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> I would consider myself a moderate, and I know what I stand for.



Agreed.  Being moderate be it fiscally or socially does not equate to not knowing what you stand for.


----------



## Altair (22 May 2018)

Loachman said:
			
		

> Viktor Orbán. Yuge majority.


 He was around before Trump, and will be around after him if my guess is right. Not the best example. Looking at Germany, France, Netherlands, the other trump like figures did poorly.





> "Moderates". Blecchh. I am sick of "moderates" who do not know what they stand for, if anything, and accomplish nothing useful whatsoever. Ontario's best years in my lifetime were those when Mike Harris was premier.


 Be that as it may, they had more room to grow the party than Ford. More left leaning voters would have considered voting for Mulroney or Elliot. Ford is dealing with a hard cap of 40% of the electorate, and if he can win with only his base backing him, power to him, but if recent polling is to be believed, he may lose if the 60 percent of voters he cannot reach coalesce around the NDP





> I seriously doubt that. They failed to inspire.


They failed to inspire the base, but they would have been a breath of fresh air for disenchanted liberals voters. 

And while he may inspire the base, he's also going to inspire his opposition. Like it or not, he's a polarizing figure, and if there is a ABF movement afoot come election day, he's cooked. I seriously doubt there would be a ABE or ABM movement, and left leaning voters might have simply stayed home rather than vote for the liberals which they didn't like and the NDP who couldn't win. Now the NDP might win and there is a ABF movement, two things that may doom the PC come election night.

It's going to be interesting.


----------



## Cloud Cover (22 May 2018)

If the NDP win, it means there will be a really good buyers market for housing.  That alone should scare the crap out of all those 416/905 who have overpaid and mortgaged the rest of their life for a postage stamp property.


----------



## Altair (22 May 2018)

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> If the NDP win, it means there will be a really good buyers market for housing.  That alone should scare the crap out of all those 416/905 who have overpaid and mortgaged the rest of their life for a postage stamp property.


growing up in quebec as a English speaking person,  I always knew that I could move to ontario if things got unbearable. 

Where does an ontarian move to?


----------



## PuckChaser (22 May 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> growing up in quebec as a English speaking person,  I always knew that I could move to ontario if things got unbearable.
> 
> Where does an ontarian move to?



Alberta, the NDP will be gone there soon.


----------



## Cloud Cover (22 May 2018)

I don't think an NDP government would be unbearable, there is nothing wrong with more progressive government services and in some cases, policies... 

Whether they can do that without being as divisive, corrupt, vengeful and full of coercive equity ideas that are punitive and driven by racial/gender undertones is a whole other matter. 

An NDP government would be very good for all manner of things in Northern Ontario. 

 The outcome of this election is not as relevant as the one that will occur on October 21, 2019.


----------



## PuckChaser (22 May 2018)

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> I don't think an NDP government would be unbearable, there is nothing wrong with more progressive government services and in some cases, policies...
> 
> Whether they can do that without being as divisive, corrupt, vengeful and full of coercive equity ideas that are punitive and driven by racial/gender undertones is a whole other matter.
> 
> ...



The NDP did a great job last time they were in power in Ontario.  :facepalm: Not to mention the radical candidates that get a pass for the NDP but are tarred and feathered if they're a Tory, or the glaring $1.4B CAD budget shortfall in just their declared campaign promises.

Ontario is drowning in debt. What we don't need is more debt. Liberals and NDP = catastrophic debt levels.


----------



## Cloud Cover (22 May 2018)

Puck I understand that. I lived here during the last one-"Stay Alive til'95" was our mantra as young men. Let's be honest though, no party running in this election is going to bring down Ontario's debt. It will take a substantial  external push for that to happen. The best the province can hope for is to die in its sleep as far as that goes. There are no more Mike Harris era's* in the future of the province so long as the GTA remains a part of it. 

* edit:  by that, I mean the Harris government made it abundantly clear that Ottawa was to stay out of Ontario's fiscal situation and we would get ourselves out of the mess left over from the Peterson and Rae governments.


----------



## Altair (22 May 2018)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> The NDP did a great job last time they were in power in Ontario.  :facepalm: Not to mention the radical candidates that get a pass for the NDP but are tarred and feathered if they're a Tory, or the glaring $1.4B CAD budget shortfall in just their declared campaign promises.
> 
> Ontario is drowning in debt. What we don't need is more debt. Liberals and NDP = catastrophic debt levels.


And ford wants to cancel the carbon tax,  and balance the budget finding 10 billion dollars of efficiencies. 

I think everyone is using funny math.


----------



## Cloud Cover (22 May 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> I think everyone is using funny math.



Agreed: we cannot fix this: http://www.debtclock.ca/provincial-debtclocks/ontario/ontario-s-debt/


----------



## Altair (22 May 2018)

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> Agreed: we cannot fix this: http://www.debtclock.ca/provincial-debtclocks/ontario/ontario-s-debt/


There I disagree.

Look east.

The Quebec Liberals simply slowed the growth of expenditures and waited for the economy to grow enough to catch up. It took what, 3 years to balance it?

They burnt a lot of political capital to do it, but they did it. 

The sad fact is that Ontario isn't at the level of debt where it hurts enough to do something to do about it. Quebec was over 50 percent before a government got serious about it. Ontario is at "only" at 37.


----------



## Cloud Cover (22 May 2018)

Hmmm, thats interesting. But... Ontario is at 80 percent risk of defaulting on its debt within 15-20 years (around the time I retire). The scale of the existing debt is the issue especially as it rises with GDP- it should be going down, not up. 

If Ontario had done what Quebec was doing 5-6 years ago (and Quebec apparently had a plan and no choice), then it might have been possible.  To knock that down, we would need to cut back spending by about 15++ billion per year (deficit+debt servicing).  It does not seem to be a possible for political reasons to increase revenue and hold back spending in this province, especially when what is needed is a severe cut in spending ...


----------



## Altair (22 May 2018)

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> Hmmm, thats interesting. But... Ontario is at 80 percent risk of defaulting on its debt within 15-20 years (around the time I retire). The scale of the existing debt is the issue especially as it rises with GDP- it should be going down, not up.
> 
> If Ontario had done what Quebec was doing 5-6 years ago (and Quebec apparently had a plan and no choice), then it might have been possible.  To knock that down, we would need to cut back spending by about 15++ billion per year (deficit+debt servicing).  It does not seem to be a possible for political reasons to increase revenue and hold back spending in this province, especially when what is needed is a severe cut in spending ...


The Ontario economy is growing, to date, so there actually need to be no "cuts" made. Simply slow the growth of expenditures to below the rate of economic growth and the revenue will eventually catch up with the expenditures.  It's a far less cruel way want to simply hack and slash their way through the budget, and in a few years(assuming the global economy doesn't nosedive) budget balance would be achieved.

But, no party in Ontario right now is proposing anything close to that, the NDP and Liberals are proposing more deficits and the PCs are proposing getting rid of the carbon tax and somehow finding 10 billion dollars of efficiencies in the budget.(Although I don't believe Ford has a platform out yet, does he?)

All that says to me is that Ontario has yet to feel the pain Quebec was starting to feel when their debt to GDP reached 54 percent. When they do (and paying 20 -25 billion in interest or so) they will take the logical steps to start fixing their finances. 

Ontario is Quebec in the early 2000s, thinking they can borrow their way into prosperity.


----------



## Altair (24 May 2018)

http://nationalpost.com/news/politics/doug-ford-accused-of-buying-memberships-to-help-preferred-candidate-win-tory-nomination





> Ontario Progressive Conservative leader Doug Ford paid for memberships for new Tories —contrary to party rules — and bused them in to help his preferred candidate win the PC nomination in the riding where he lives, say a former top Conservative official and a party member present at the 2016 vote.
> 
> The losing contender for the Etobicoke Centre nomination, lawyer Pina Martino, filed a complaint, which included testimony from members recruited by Ford, said the former official, who spoke on condition of anonymity. But the party decided to allow Kinga Surma to remain as the candidate, the source said.
> 
> Meanwhile, the Ontario Liberal Party announced Wednesday evening it would release a recording of Ford and Surma Thursday morning which it said would implicate Ford “directly” in a nomination controversy.


Perfect timing for a controversy. Suddenly tied in the polls, now this coming out. 

Two weeks to go, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say the OPC might have found a way to defeat themselves once again.


----------



## Jarnhamar (24 May 2018)

Vote PC if anything to get rid of the carbon tax.


----------



## Remius (24 May 2018)

https://globalnews.ca/news/4225759/ontario-election-decline-to-vote/

Another option...


----------



## Journeyman (24 May 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> https://globalnews.ca/news/4225759/ontario-election-decline-to-vote/


A useful news story.... but:

a.  like many 'protest gestures,' it's utility is generally limited to letting the person protesting tell themselves, "well, I sure showed them!"  A declined ballot just says 'person is unhappy' -- is the voter upset with the local candidates? Provincial leadership? Riding boundaries? A particular policy?  No one knows, so nothing is correctable based on this type of protest; it's a futile gesture.

b.  you forfeit your vote, you forfeit your right to bitch about whatever government you eventually get.

 :2c:


----------



## Remius (24 May 2018)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> A useful news story.... but:
> 
> a.  like many 'protest gestures,' it's utility is generally limited to letting the person protesting tell themselves, "well, I sure showed them!"  A declined ballot just says 'person is unhappy' -- is the voter upset with the local candidates? Provincial leadership? Riding boundaries? A particular policy?  No one knows, so nothing is correctable based on this type of protest; it's a futile gesture.
> 
> ...



a.  You could say that about any type of vote.  No one will know why you voted one way or another.  Did you vote for something or against?  Or was it for one policy or another or against it?

b.  You forfeit absolutely no rights whatsoever.  You pay taxes, you live in the province.  You can complain all you want regardless of whether you voted, stayed home or showed up and spoiled your ballot or indicated a declined vote (which is a valid option).  Welcome to a free society.  All you do is not put your support behind anyone.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (24 May 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> http://nationalpost.com/news/politics/doug-ford-accused-of-buying-memberships-to-help-preferred-candidate-win-tory-nominationPerfect timing for a controversy. Suddenly tied in the polls, now this coming out.
> 
> Two weeks to go, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say the OPC might have found a way to defeat themselves once again.



It strikes me that most of the problems associated with various Canadian elections in recent years have been caused by the manner in which most parties now select leaders. It used to be that either caucus voted, or there was a delegated vote. This direct election of a  leader by anyone with a party membership seems to be the source of a lot of abuse, corruption and outright fraud.


----------



## Remius (24 May 2018)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> It strikes me that most of the problems associated with various Canadian elections in recent years have been caused by the manner in which most parties now select leaders. It used to be that either caucus voted, or there was a delegated vote. This direct election of a  leader by anyone with a party membership seems to be the source of a lot of abuse, corruption and outright fraud.



Not to mention that some groups can buy memberships to try and affect the outcome.  The Red Star Hippy Whale Protectors Corps don't like mr. X so they buy a  membership to ensure he might not get the leadership.  They have no intention of voting for the party at all.  or they try to ensure that the most unelectable guy/girl gets in.


----------



## Cloud Cover (24 May 2018)

If I recall, giving each OPC party member a right to vote in the election of leader was a pre-cursor step to (the now abandoned) desire of  theoretically adopting a policy of direct democracy for major policy issues.  Obviously, the theory needs work ....

A group named None of the Above (nota.ca) has claimed the direct democracy ground, but are only running in a few dozen ridings and have somehow managed to come off as both populist and fringe. Since there is a Green party in Ontario, I would colour these folks as very dark blue


----------



## Remius (24 May 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> http://nationalpost.com/news/politics/doug-ford-accused-of-buying-memberships-to-help-preferred-candidate-win-tory-nominationPerfect timing for a controversy. Suddenly tied in the polls, now this coming out.
> 
> Two weeks to go, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say the OPC might have found a way to defeat themselves once again.



It is becoming a big steaming pile.

This is turning into a bad week for the PCs.


----------



## Altair (24 May 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> It is becoming a big steaming pile.
> 
> This is turning into a bad week for the PCs.


And its not over yet,  debates on Sunday. 

Wonder what the topic of conversation is going to be.


----------



## PuckChaser (24 May 2018)

Considering the full court press the media is giving to tar Doug Ford with a bad light, I can understand why he's slipping. He turfs a radical right candidate that made comments not proper of a prospective MPP, but the NDP gets a free ride on a radical left candidate for a similar issue. Not to mention the NDP platform to kill the Pickering Nuclear Plant (clean energy) and fire 4500 people gets barely a whisper.


----------



## Cloud Cover (24 May 2018)

I remember when the NDP poured billions into that plant. What is the radical NDP issue that you speak of (I've lost track of all the shocking misbehavior )


----------



## Cloud Cover (24 May 2018)

Disregard. I found it (insert vomit emoji).


----------



## larry Strong (24 May 2018)

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> What is the radical NDP issue that you speak of (I've lost track of all the shocking misbehavior )



Which one.........

https://www.ontariopc.ca/meet_the_real_ndp

And that's not counting the dude that was involved with oiled up female wrestling....and since has scrubbed his FB account and stated he must have a doppelganger as he did no such thing.......



Cheers
Larry


----------



## Fishbone Jones (24 May 2018)

Considering the lies, half truths and social engineering failures of the McGuinty and Wynne grits, I find it laughable that they decided to follow the Clinton/ Obama modus operendi of digging up dirt on opponents instead of providing a platform people can trust. It appears that Matthews is the attack dog on this one and not Wynne, possibly means she is sinking fast in her riding and has to get noticed.

The polls are a joke and the fact CBC and other MSM are supporting Horvath shows the worry they have about Ford winning. Closing a clean, affordable, efficient nuclear power plant and tossing 4500 people out of work. Sanctuary province? Really? What kind of moron would support that? I have yet to see anything in her platform that's not going to rape the taxpayer of more of their hard earned wages. The NDP platform is far and away a much worse one than Wynnes, in every aspect. Most of Wynne's ideas were stolen and softened from the NDP. Which is why the NDP carried Wynne's water for the last eight years. Think they won't support each other again?

The only poll that matters and tells the real story is on election day. Anything else is just expensive guessing and trying to justify the results of that guessing is equally futile.

And that's where I see things right now. Still got two weeks.


----------



## FJAG (24 May 2018)

Sat in on a teleconference town hall meeting with my incumbent PC MPP/candidate. Everything was going well until one of the questioners started with "I'm a Christian and don't like all this sex education . . ."  :facepalm:

Why does fiscal conservatism have to come with religious strings attached?

 [cheers]


----------



## Altair (24 May 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Considering the lies, half truths and social engineering failures of the McGuinty and Wynne grits, I find it laughable that they decided to follow the Clinton/ Obama modus operendi of digging up dirt on opponents instead of providing a platform people can trust. It appears that Matthews is the attack dog on this one and not Wynne, possibly means she is sinking fast in her riding and has to get noticed.
> 
> The polls are a joke and the fact CBC and other MSM are supporting Horvath shows the worry they have about Ford winning. Closing a clean, affordable, efficient nuclear power plant and tossing 4500 people out of work. Sanctuary province? Really? What kind of moron would support that? I have yet to see anything in her platform that's not going to rape the taxpayer of more of their hard earned wages. The NDP platform is far and away a much worse one than Wynnes, in every aspect. Most of Wynne's ideas were stolen and softened from the NDP. Which is why the NDP carried Wynne's water for the last eight years. Think they won't support each other again?
> 
> ...


the liberal play here is obvious. 

They can't win,  but if the NDP does,  it will likely be a minority.  If they sink the PCs enough,  they get a minority. Either way,  they hold the balance of power. 

As for the polls,  give me a break.  Everyone was touting them when the PCs had a huge lead. Now that they are tied its BS?


----------



## Cloud Cover (24 May 2018)

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> Which one.........
> Cheers
> Larry



The Mississauga one.


----------



## Infanteer (24 May 2018)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> It strikes me that most of the problems associated with various Canadian elections in recent years have been caused by the manner in which most parties now select leaders. It used to be that either caucus voted, or there was a delegated vote. This direct election of a  leader by anyone with a party membership seems to be the source of a lot of abuse, corruption and outright fraud.



Yes, isn't it.  I always thought caucus voting was the better option, as the party could avoid the hucksters.  You do run the risk of coup/counter-coup as the Aussies have, but that isn't as bad as the crap that seems to tarnish every party election.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (25 May 2018)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Yes, isn't it.  I always thought caucus voting was the better option, as the party could avoid the hucksters.  You do run the risk of coup/counter-coup as the Aussies have, but that isn't as bad as the crap that seems to tarnish every party election.



I would rather risk that than the clown show we have going in every party at every level of government in Canada now.


----------



## Edward Campbell (25 May 2018)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Yes, isn't it.  _I always thought caucus voting was the better option_, as the party could avoid the hucksters.  You do run the risk of coup/counter-coup as the Aussies have, but that isn't as bad as the crap that seems to tarnish every party election.




So did I and I still do ... the rise of Bush 43, Obama, Saunders, Clinton and Trump have persuaded me that caucus selection is vastly superior to 'grass roots' elections. 

The caucus is well attuned to what the people are thinking ... more so if recently defeated candidates are included in the mix. Party _activists_ (you're right, they're mostly hucksters) are, mainly, the well funded stalking horses of (sometimes extremist) special interests.

The occasional _coup_ (like the Aussies have had and as the brits did with PM Thatcher) are probably healthy.

I think that the party, writ large, should be responsible for the policies and platform while the caucus should elect ~ and, now and again, fire ~ its own leader. Candidates should have to 'sign up' to the platform, the leader should have to stand by (or disallow) each candidate.


----------



## Remius (25 May 2018)

I would tend to agree but:

With the limitations now on corporate donations and individual donations, it seems that membership purchases are now a significant revenue source.  People want something for their money.  A say and a vote on choosing a leader and policy is that "something".  

I could be wrong but getting the grass roots directly involved is a result of limiting large donations.  Parties need revenue and the need for that revenue has put the power in the hands of the party activists.


----------



## Altair (25 May 2018)

http://poll.forumresearch.com/post/2847/ontario-mid-campaign/



> Toronto, May 24th -  In a random sampling of public opinion taken by The Forum Poll™ among 906 Ontario voters, amongst those decided and leaning almost half of Ontarians (47%) say that they would support the NDP. A third (33%) say they would support the PCs, and one-sixth (14%) say they would support the Liberals. Few (4%) say they would support either the Green Party, or another party (2%).



There is no way this can be true...right?


----------



## Remius (25 May 2018)

I would say so if it weren't showing the NDP on an upward trend in virtually every poll.  it may just be an outlier poll but it supports what is happening in other polls. 

Likely this poll was done before the more recent Ford revelation so this won't be the best news for the PCs. 

Also it seems the PCs are going to get dirty in the mud as well:  https://globalnews.ca/news/4230225/ontario-pc-party-ndp-announcement/


Andrew Coyne last night on CBC made a good suggestion.  Ford and the PCs need to stay on message about the economy.  The problem being is that they have yet to release a costed platform (or platform for that matter).  They need to stop acting like front runners and go on a smart offensive.   

I've mentioned this before but I think that Doug Ford is weak on the complexities of government policy, so I'm not sure he can switch gears.  It's one thing to coast on the unpopularity of your opponents but he is allowing the NDP to flank him as an alternative. 

Something has to happen and quick to turn this around for the PCs.


----------



## ModlrMike (25 May 2018)

Yes, because the best thing for Ontario is to drift even further left.  :facepalm:


----------



## Remius (25 May 2018)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Yes, because the best thing for Ontario is to drift even further left.  :facepalm:



Yeah, and if they only manage a minority they will be propped up by what's left of the LPO and wil essentially just be a continuation of liberal policies...

The ideal scenario for me is a minority PC government.  But that may not happen if trends keep up.


----------



## Cloud Cover (25 May 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> Yeah, and if they only manage a minority they will be propped up by what's left of the LPO and wil essentially just be a continuation of liberal policies...
> 
> The ideal scenario for me is a minority PC government.  But that may not happen if trends keep up.



If not, it won't be the end of the world. ^This country is bigger than the fuck ups of any particular party than might be in power or loses a good chance at gaining power at any particular point in time.  ^


----------



## Altair (25 May 2018)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Yes, because the best thing for Ontario is to drift even further left.  :facepalm:


Maybe not, but I don't think Ontario was ready for a lurch to the right.

Maybe a slow inching over to the right. A moderate leader in that case would have been for the best.

Instead, faced with Ford, people would rather the NDP, the same bad ideas as the liberals, less baggage.


----------



## Good2Golf (25 May 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> Instead, faced with Ford, people would rather the NDP, the same bad ideas as the liberals, less baggage.



...other than 1990-1995...


----------



## Remius (25 May 2018)

Most millenials and younger gen x cohorts (who may be behind the NDP surge) don't really remember that.  25 years ago plus, last century, before social media etc etc.

But a lot of people have seen what a mess the PC party is right now.  They remember the Ford scandals in Toronto and they see what populist leaders can result in. 

The PC party and Ford have to ensure they don't give anyone any reason not to vote for them.  So far it does not seem to be working.

Horvath when compared to the other two looks better and has little to no ethical baggage.


----------



## Good2Golf (25 May 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> Most millenials and younger gen x cohorts (who may be behind the NDP surge) don't really remember that.  25 years ago plus, last century, before social media etc etc.



They'll get a refresher with "Social Contract #2"...  :nod:


----------



## Altair (25 May 2018)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> ...other than 1990-1995...





> The memories of the 1990 election — and the subsequent five years of Rae's NDP government — are beginning to fade. Millennials will be the biggest cohort of eligible voters in this election, and even the oldest among them would have been roughly 15 years old when Rae's government was defeated in 1995.
> 
> About a sixth of the Ontario electorate today wasn't even been born yet in 1990, nearly a quarter were barely out of diapers and over 2 million Ontarians came to Canada as immigrants after 1990.
> 
> So for a significant portion of voters, Ontario's only NDP government is a history lesson rather than a lived experience. Those voters who might be negatively influenced by memories of the early 1990s would be predisposed already to shun the New Democrats. The party traditionally has struggled to win support among older voters, so it's difficult to separate the tendency of those voters to eschew the NDP from any lingering memories of 'Rae Days'.



http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/grenier-ontario-1990-election-1.4675425

Yeah, I don't think that matters much for a great deal of people.


----------



## Good2Golf (25 May 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/grenier-ontario-1990-election-1.4675425
> 
> Yeah, I don't think that matters much for a great deal of people.



You are likely right...at their own peril, of course.  Anyone I knew who voted NDP in '90 got 'the Hand' from me when they stated having to take 'Rae Days.'  :'(

'On verra'

G2G


----------



## Remius (25 May 2018)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> They'll get a refresher with "Social Contract #2"...  :nod:



No doubt.  One can hope they won't repeat the errors in their past. But hope is the first step towards disappointment.

I'll just be glad to see Wynne go.

If the NDP win, then the other parties will have to reinvent themselves for the next round.  Except the PC.  They seem to keep screwing themselves over and over.


----------



## mariomike (25 May 2018)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> They'll get a refresher with "Social Contract #2"...  :nod:



I remember the first one.

We lost twelve 12-hours regular shifts. But, gained twelve 12-hour shifts of OT.


----------



## Remius (25 May 2018)

The problem with these polls though is that I think that vote distribution isn't accounted for. 

So while the NDP may have the lead, the PCs may have the more effective vote distribution.


----------



## ModlrMike (25 May 2018)

Looks like the NDP have their own warts to cure:

NDP under fire for GTA candidate's Hitler-themed social media post

Leader Andrea Horwath offered words of support for candidate in Scarborough-Agincourt

Ontario's Progressive Conservatives are calling on NDP Leader Andrea Horwath to part ways with a candidate in the Toronto area who shared an Adolf Hitler meme on social media several years ago.

--------------------------------------

I have to observe that if this were a Conservative candidate the response from the NDP would be much different.


----------



## Brad Sallows (25 May 2018)

>I always thought caucus voting was the better option

"Democracy" has several flavours, but any system which relies mostly on delegated representation is likely to produce superior outcomes to pure "majoritarian" (which I always substitute with "mob") democracy.


----------



## Underway (25 May 2018)

The problem with the NDP the first time round was that they went against their own unions.  The current NDP will just strengthen them to Greece like proportions and by them off.  At least Bob Rae realized how screwed the province was.  The current NDP have no clue despite the current rosy economic picture.  

Given that young voters tend to vote left and get more conservative as they age we are guaranteed an NDP majority here.  With the millennial vote you can take it to the bank.  The rise of Trudeau is another example of this.  If you have no policies (or in the case of the PC's no policies at all, wheres the platform Mr. Ford??) that focus on millenials and their concerns you might as well just quit the race right now.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (25 May 2018)

I have a couple of questions for those so enamoured with Horvath.

1. How do you feel about living in a welfare sanctuary province?

2. How do you envision making a living when she wants to take billions more from your pocket?

3. How do you feel about your taxes supporting criminal gangs like MS13?

4. Do you agree extending the grit green plan by closing a clean, efficient nuclear generating plant and pay more for hydro?

5. Where is the money coming from for all her promises?

6. Is she going to bail out Toronto's sanctuary city bill?

7. Her plan includes the end of resource extraction. No oil, gold, gas, diamonds and uranium. Do you agree?

That's just a few problems I hear none of the Horvath crowd talking about.

Care to shed some light?


----------



## Altair (25 May 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I have a couple of questions for those so enamoured with Horvath.
> 
> 1. How do you feel about living in a welfare sanctuary province?
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure people are thinking that they cannot be worst than the liberals and left leaning voters want nothing to do with ford. 

I don't think people are enamoured with horvath as much as they are enamoured with the idea that they don't need to put up with Ford or Wynne anymore. 

And I know I'm a broken record,  but this doesn't happen with Mulroney or Elliot.


----------



## PuckChaser (25 May 2018)

I still fail to see how Doug Ford is the far-right Godzilla that will outlaw abortions and put the Lord's Prayer back in school that he's portrayed to be. He's made mistakes that are no different than the other leaders, but can't do anything right. Anyone that uses "Donald Trump" as a reason not to vote for Ford is just using the modern version of Godwin's Law IMO: they've lost any ability to have a rational discussion or debate.


----------



## Remius (25 May 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure people are thinking that they cannot be worst than the liberals and left leaning voters want nothing to do with ford.
> 
> I don't think people are enamoured with horvath as much as they are enamoured with the idea that they don't need to put up with Ford or Wynne anymore.
> 
> And I know I'm a broken record,  but this doesn't happen with Mulroney or Elliot.




That’s a good take on it.  It seems that ethical behaviour is the flavour right now.  Wynne has run out of any capital on that and people may be realizing that Ford is no better.  The PC party has a massive credibility problem now with the shenanigans in their nomination processes and now Ford himself being linked to thing s like bogus memberships.   Horvath comes off as more likeable and the NDP seem like a viable way to stop Ford so people are parking their support there.  Ford’s inexperience is showing too.  

It is less about supporting Horvath and the NDP and more about stopping Ford.  The Liberals aren’t even a factor anymore.


----------



## PuckChaser (25 May 2018)

The Liberals don't have a credibility problem? They just had 2 senior staffers convicted of criminally deleting documents related to the closure of a gas plant for political gain. The then minority Liberal government would have fallen if the NDP under Andrea Horwath didn't prop them up years ago. I think the only credibility problem is with the credibility of the political news coverage from the mainstream media.


----------



## Altair (25 May 2018)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I still fail to see how Doug Ford is the far-right Godzilla that will outlaw abortions and put the Lord's Prayer back in school that he's portrayed to be. He's made mistakes that are no different than the other leaders, but can't do anything right. Anyone that uses "Donald Trump" as a reason not to vote for Ford is just using the modern version of Godwin's Law IMO: they've lost any ability to have a rational discussion or debate.


And that's fair in my opinion,  and to date,  since the new rules came out,  I don't think anyone has said that. 

That said,  its not like ford has exactly dome much to inspire voters from the NDP or Liberals to want to vote for him. 

And its not like the ford family is a unknown entity,  people know what to expect from the ford family from their time running toronto. 

He says weird things like how its a gotcha question when asked about how the legislative process works. Or how he plans to stop any carbon tax,  balance the budget and not cut a single job. And say what you will about how the NDP platform shakes out,  at least we know what it is. 

He is what he is,  a guy who will motivate the conservative base. He's not a guy who will convince left leaning voters to give him a chance. He also motivates a lot of left leaning voters to rally against him. We shall see how this shakes out in the end,  but things seem to be shifting on the ground and the NDP have a lot of momentum simply by not being the other guys.


----------



## Remius (25 May 2018)

Puck chaser: Um did you not read what I wrote?  I stated that Wynne has llost all capital on ethical behaviour and that the Liberals are not a factor in this election. At all. 

Where did I state that they don’t have a credibility problem?


----------



## Altair (25 May 2018)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> The Liberals don't have a credibility problem? They just had 2 senior staffers convicted of criminally deleting documents related to the closure of a gas plant for political gain. The then minority Liberal government would have fallen if the NDP under Andrea Horwath didn't prop them up years ago. I think the only credibility problem is with the credibility of the political news coverage from the mainstream media.


the liberals definitely has a credibility problem. And with the way their vote is collapsing the voters will punish them for it. 

The problem for Ford is that he isn't reaping the rewards of that collapsing liberal vote. 

Hell,  ironic as it may sound,  he may have been better off with a stronger liberal party splitting the vote on the left.


----------



## PuckChaser (25 May 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> Puck chaser: Um did you not read what I wrote?  I stated that Wynne has llost all capital on ethical behaviour and that the Liberals are not a factor in this election. At all.
> 
> Where did I state that they don’t have a credibility problem?



It was a link to state the NDP is just as credibility-deficient as the Liberals. The NDP have no leg to stand on after they could have ended the Ontario Liberals years ago with a perfect political scandal, but didn't.


----------



## Remius (25 May 2018)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> It was a link to state the NDP is just as credibility-deficient as the Liberals. The NDP have no leg to stand on after they could have ended the Ontario Liberals years ago with a perfect political scandal, but didn't.



That’s politics.  

The credibility issue is more about vote rigging, tainted nomination runs, sexual harassment scandals etc and yes liberals going to jail. 

People see the NDP as less tainted. 

The problem for them though is if they peaked too early and their inexperience being in the lead and campaigning that way.  I’ve mentioned the PCs having a more efficient vote distribution and that will be a factor come Election Day. 

This is a change election.  If they see the same taint in the Liberals and the PCs then the NDP benefits. 

Given how the campaign started, the PC party was banking on Liberals dissatifaction across the province to be their ace in the hole.  They now need to do more than just sit and make comments with no substance.  They are going to have to come up with more detail on their platform, focus on the economy and show people they are the better change.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (25 May 2018)

Ford voters know how they're voting and have no reason to answer polls.  The same thing happened with Trump. The base waited for the vote while Clintons bunch believed the polls. Given the biased treatment of the MSM and that polls are written to effect what result the buyer wants, I think Horvath is in for a kick in the nuts come election night. People can fault Ford all they want with their petty politics and smear campaigns, he's more than likey your next Premier. Hopefully, with a handy.

So far as the smear campaign against him by Horvath and Wynne it was investigated, by the party ethics people and Ford was found not at fault and there was no impropriety on his part.

That Mulroney or Elliot could or could not have won is immaterial and wasteful. That is in the past and has no bearing on anything whatsoever in the present. 'What ifs' are useless and only draw the discussion from reality.

I'm still waiting for someone NDP to answer my questions.


----------



## Altair (25 May 2018)

Who here is NDP to answer your questions?


----------



## Remius (25 May 2018)

I suggest you post those questions on RABBLE or something.  You’ll likely get their answers on there. 

Judging by most people here I’m not sure there are any real NDP types here.


----------



## Remius (25 May 2018)

This article from macleans from March is almost prescient about what is actually happeneing in Ontario I think.  Many parallels with the Alberta election.  

https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/when-the-politically-unthinkable-happens-why-cant-canadians-see-the-signs/


----------



## Infanteer (26 May 2018)

Good article.  I wonder if the problem of bias and disconnection are due to the fact that we seem to treat "who did you vote for" as some sort of deep and personal secret...like some sort of bedroom talk.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (26 May 2018)

Now the NDP has another lunatic. This one wants to kill American gun owners with drones during a civil war.

https://www.thepostmillennial.com/ndp-candidate-would-not-be-sad-to-see-gun-nuts-blown-apart-in-drone-strikes/


----------



## FJAG (26 May 2018)

So today I get a call from my local PC constituency office with a short survey. The third question was whether I would be voting conservative. I replied that while I've been a conservative for almost fifty years and certainly wouldn't be voting NDP or Liberal, that I was seriously thinking of not voting since "my" party decided it believed Doug Ford would be the best leader. I suspect she only had a small check box to fill and either didn't care what I said or had a script that didn't handle my position and in a cheery voice thanked me for my support. Go figure. Waiting to see if there is a follow up call.  op:

 :cheers:


----------



## Altair (26 May 2018)

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/onvotes/poll-tracker/

Poll tracker starting to shift. 

NDP now winning popular vote,  PCs most seats but continuing to fall. 

Lets see how the next few weeks go. This is one of the more interesting elections I've seen in a while.


----------



## Remius (26 May 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Now the NDP has another lunatic. This one wants to kill American gun owners with drones during a civil war.
> 
> https://www.thepostmillennial.com/ndp-candidate-would-not-be-sad-to-see-gun-nuts-blown-apart-in-drone-strikes/




This is another issue the NDP will need to deal with.  They probably didn’t think they had a chance.  I doubt that most candidates were properly vetted.  Now that they have the lead they will face more scrutiny.  The NDP candidate in my riding looks like a token candidate.  A sociology student from Toronto or something that was placed on the last day they could.  Not very inspiring...


----------



## Remius (26 May 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/onvotes/poll-tracker/
> 
> Poll tracker starting to shift.
> 
> ...



And sunday’s debate may actually have an impact.


----------



## Jarnhamar (26 May 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Now the NDP has another lunatic. This one wants to kill American gun owners with drones during a civil war.
> 
> https://www.thepostmillennial.com/ndp-candidate-would-not-be-sad-to-see-gun-nuts-blown-apart-in-drone-strikes/



Seems typical. 

"Right wingers are a bunch of violent rednecks and we don't need that kind of violence in Canada .  People who want to own assault weapons should be shot with heir own guns to prove a point".


On one hand I find it kind of annoying how people are brought to task over innocuous comments or jobs they made  years ago. That said some people say some pretty psychotic stuff and probably should be turfed over it.

What's REALLY messed up is these  candidates that drop in out of no where with zero experience, may have applied for a joke and all of a sudden win and now have to represent us. 

WhomI think (correct me if I'm wrong) will get a bigger pension after two short terms should they get re-elected than the majority of us get after 20+ years of hard service.



Edit: just reading a out the NDP and their idea to make Ontario a sanctuary province. How lovely lol


----------



## Brad Sallows (27 May 2018)

The people who think Ford will initiate the end-of-days just need to remember what they were saying when they were defending Trudeau against the flip side end-of-days breast-beaters: he will not be the only person in the assembly, and there will be some experienced old hands present.


----------



## Remius (27 May 2018)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> The people who think Ford will initiate the end-of-days just need to remember what they were saying when they were defending Trudeau against the flip side end-of-days breast-beaters: he will not be the only person in the assembly, and there will be some experienced old hands present.



I’m not sure people are worried about the end of days.  To be honest I’m seeing more of that fear in the eyes of those terrified of an NDP government.

I think they fear incompetence mixed with a goat rodeo.  The PCs have been such a mess internally that some like myself fear what they would do when in power.  People I think are tired of corrupt politics and other far Dough Ford despite being very disciplined hasn’t quelled that fear.  Real or not. 

I’m looking forward to the debate tonight.  My guess is that Horvath will be on the hot seat and it will be testy.  Ford can do well here if he stays on a message of the economy and doesnt fall for any baiting.


----------



## mariomike (27 May 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> People I think are tired of corrupt politics and other far Dough Ford despite being very disciplined hasn’t quelled that fear.



I voted Ford Nation in 2010. But, decided not to in 2014. Prior to 2018, was he well known outside of Toronto?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (27 May 2018)

Whatever people think about Ford should be immaterial. The grits are for big ongoing social plans and their magical funding. They appear as NDP lite. The NDP on the other hand are hell bent on showing us how they can out greek the Greeks and turn us into an African third world province.

Doug Ford however, is the only candidate fighting to lower our deficit. A moritorium on green energy products and a reviewing of the deal. Costs can be reduced by attrition and retirments.

There is nothing to look forward to from either the grits or dippers. Unless, you are on welfare, an illegal immigrant, recent refugee from the middle east. If you work and pay taxes, the grits and dippers are your enemy.

Mario,

I knew of the Ford brothers prior to Rob becoming mayor. I knew little of either though. When Doug announced, I checked him, as I did the others like Elliot and Mulroney. Based on who and what, I made my decision.


----------



## Remius (27 May 2018)

This piece here sums up a lot for some of us.  Gave me a chuckle.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4228561/mike-stafford-brampton-bill-davis-bland-works/


----------



## mariomike (27 May 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Mario,
> 
> I knew of the Ford brothers prior to Rob becoming mayor. I knew little of either though. When Doug announced, I checked him, as I did the others like Elliot and Mulroney. Based on who and what, I made my decision.



Oh, my wife and I will be voting PC.


----------



## PuckChaser (27 May 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> This piece here sums up a lot for some of us.  Gave me a chuckle.
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/4228561/mike-stafford-brampton-bill-davis-bland-works/



Too often are we stuck voting for "who's going to screw us the least". The way the Canadian politics is going, we're unlikely to see a change to that paradigm in our lifetimes.


----------



## Lumber (27 May 2018)

I was pretty well set on voting PC, but after a lot discussion and thought, the debate tonight probably sealed the deal; I'm probably voting Liberal.

As much as I initially hoped the PCs would be the ones who could actually make a difference in the province, and possibly bring back the Mike Harris days, I don't Beleive that either Doug Ford or the PC party (under any leader know how to do that.

I don't think the Liberals can either, because I don't think ANYONE can. No matter your political ideology, any government elected will be forced to tax and spend the province to death or face political suicide. I think that's the socio-economics of today's society, spurred on by social media and or demand for instant  gratification. We're not willing to sacrifice for anything. 

So why the liberals? Plain and simple: experience. Like them or hate them, the liberals have been doing this for a long time now; they actually know how to do their jobs. Some you might hate, but other are real honest politicians who've fought for their constituents for years, like the liberal incumbent in St. Catharines. The PCs I think have the second best cadre of "component" legislators, but under the leadership of Doug Ford, who is inexperienced and doesn't even have a platform yet, they still fall second to the Liberals. Don't even get me started on the NDP. Andrea Horwath actually comes off, to me, as the most "stomachable" leader of the big three, but her party is so full of inexperience wack jobs... Nuff said. 

So, if you don't believe that any platform is capable of actually "fixing" the province, regardless of how much you might agree with their platform, then I think the smarter choice is to stick with the devil you know, and those with the most actual experience. 

My 2c.


----------



## QV (27 May 2018)

A population always gets the government it deserves.


----------



## PuckChaser (27 May 2018)

The Liberals sure do have experience. Experience in wasting billions to keep themselves in power, and experience absolutely screwing over the middle class with hydro rates doubling in under 10 years. The devil we know is the one that's turned Ontario into a have-not province and torpedoed any ability to rebuild the manufacturing sector. Not to mention the ill-advice skyrocketting of the minimum wage which has led to 35K part time jobs lost (https://economics.td.com/provincial-economic-forecast) in the first 3 months of the year and boosted the Consumer Price Index (basically taxing the middle class to pay for the minimum wage earners).


----------



## Lumber (27 May 2018)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> The Liberals sure do have experience. Experience in wasting billions to keep themselves in power, and experience absolutely screwing over the middle class with hydro rates doubling in under 10 years. The devil we know is the one that's turned Ontario into a have-not province and torpedoed any ability to rebuild the manufacturing sector. Not to mention the ill-advice skyrocketting of the minimum wage which has led to 35K part time jobs lost (https://economics.td.com/provincial-economic-forecast) in the first 3 months of the year and boosted the Consumer Price Index (basically taxing the middle class to pay for the minimum wage earners).



And I'm saying, any one of the three parties will either continue or exacerbate these issues.


----------



## Altair (27 May 2018)

Lumber said:
			
		

> And I'm saying, any one of the three parties will either continue or exacerbate these issues.


yeah, none of these people or their parties will help ontario. 

NDP and Liberals would tax and spend, PCs will hack and slash. 

As for the debate,  Doug ford didn't have any concrete answers for the questions he was asked about, simply saying that the NDP are scary. 

Andrea didn't find a problem that she couldn't tax the rich for the solution. 

Kathleen pretty much said nothing to see here folks,  everything is fine. 

No knockout blow,  hard to say how this will effect things on the ground.


----------



## jollyjacktar (27 May 2018)

I do feel for everyone in Ontario with this election.  I think no matter wins, you'll all lose.  It will just be a matter of how much pain will come with the win.


----------



## dapaterson (28 May 2018)

https://nota.ca


----------



## Altair (28 May 2018)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> https://nota.ca


I feel that if NOTA wins every party needs to come back in 3 months with new leaders.


----------



## Remius (28 May 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> yeah, none of these people or their parties will help ontario.
> 
> NDP and Liberals would tax and spend, PCs will hack and slash.
> 
> ...



My take on the debate is:

Wynne was irrelevant.  She’s a good speaker but irrelevant.  The only thing she succeeded in doing was maybe scare more middle of the road voters into voting NDP.

Horvath was annoying.  She kept cutting people off and interrupting. 

Ford was all catchphrases and no substance.

I’m voting early.  Without an actual party plan it likely will not be PC and I really wanted to vote PC again this time.  I was think of a declined vote but NOTA may get it instead.  

None of the big three deserves my vote. I’ll get my wish to see the Liberals go but it’s sad that we have no real alternative and echo some of the posters’ above.


----------



## observor 69 (28 May 2018)

I thought Wynne won the debate and I agree with previous comments that she has the party with the most experience to run the government.
Ford, what can I say, he will never get my vote. That leaves Horvath and her party with no experience in governing.
Like many here I am in a quandary between Liberal and NDP.


----------



## mariomike (28 May 2018)

Baden Guy said:
			
		

> Ford, what can I say, he will never get my vote.



If he doesn't get in at Queen's Park, there will be nothing stopping him from campaigning ( again ) for City Hall.


----------



## Infanteer (28 May 2018)

Now you Ontarians know what it was like to be an American voter in 2016.... :not-again:


----------



## observor 69 (28 May 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> If he doesn't get in at Queen's Park, there will be nothing stopping him from campaigning ( again ) for City Hall.



Long as he doesn't run against Bonnie Crombie !  :nod:


----------



## mariomike (28 May 2018)

Baden Guy said:
			
		

> Long as he doesn't run against Bonnie Crombie !  :nod:



The good news for Mississauga is,

Statement: Mayor Crombie Welcomes Kathleen Wynne and Doug Ford’s Commitment to Fund Hurontario LRT 

“I am pleased that both the leader of the Ontario Liberal Party, Kathleen Wynne and the leader of the Progressive Conservative Party, Doug Ford have committed, if elected as Premier, to fully fund and build the Hurontario Rapid Light Transit (LRT) system."
https://www.mayorcrombie.ca/statement-mayor-crombie-welcomes-kathleen-wynne-and-doug-fords-commitment-to-fund-hurontario-lrt/

From what I have read, Hurontario is the busiest bus route in the GTA.

Hopefully, if there is a change in government, the Hurontario LRT won't suffer the same fate the Eglinton subway did as a result of the 1995 Ontario election. 

There was a subway already under construction under Eglinton Avenue in Toronto. But, after Premier Mike Harris got in, he proceeded to rebury the project (literally, the fill that was dug out for the subway tunnel was dumped back in to refill it). And only now is there transit construction underneath Eglinton again.

Mayor Rob Ford announced the cancellation of Transit City the day he got in: "No more war on the car."

Doug voted to cut TTC funding by 10 per cent.

Hopefully, if he gets in, he will keep his word and not cancel the Hurontario LRT.

QUOTE

Fact-checking Doug Ford’s transit promises
http://toronto.citynews.ca/video/2018/05/09/fact-checking-doug-fords-transit-promises/

END QUOTE


----------



## FSTO (28 May 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> My take on the debate is:
> 
> Wynne was irrelevant.  She’s a good speaker but irrelevant.  The only thing she succeeded in doing was maybe scare more middle of the road voters into voting NDP.
> 
> ...



I'm new to Ontario. None of the 3 impress me so I voted for NOTA at the advance poll.


----------



## captloadie (28 May 2018)

Several posters have bemoaned the fact that this party or that lack qualified candidates to run the province. Does this mean that you accept the fact that being a politician is a profession in and of itself? I know it is naïve,  but I have always thought the purpose of a democracy was to have individuals from the community stand for office so they can attempt to affect change at the various levels (municipal, provincial, and federal). If you believe only those with experience running the province can be trusted to hold the mantles of power, then the incumbent gov't should always win, and why have more than one party then?

Let's be honest, the bureaucrats run the province. The politicians are only meant to provide the direction based on the wants of the people they serve. So, if your only reason not to vote NDP is their lack of experience, then vote NDP and hope they learn along the way. If you want to vote PC, but are scared of the leader, vote PC anyway and see what happens. If you think Wynne deserves 5 more years to try and unscrew the mess they have made in the last 13 or so, then well, maybe you should stay home  ;D At the end of the day, the decision we make now we will only have to live with for 5 years, and then change will come again.


----------



## Jarnhamar (28 May 2018)

I would have almost considered the NDP even with their inexperience and candidates who don't seem military friendly but after hearing about their Sanctuary-Province idea they'd be worse than Wynne and the Liberals.


----------



## mariomike (28 May 2018)

captloadie said:
			
		

> If you want to vote PC, but are scared of the leader, vote PC anyway and see what happens.



I voted Ford Nation in 2010 and saw what happened.  

But, everyone deserves a fresh start now and then, so,



			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> Oh, my wife and I will be voting PC.





			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I would have almost considered the NDP even with their inexperience and candidates who don't seem military friendly but after hearing about their Sanctuary-Province idea they'd be worse than Wynne and the Liberals.



QUOTE

Toronto has asked the province, which does have authority over these services, to designate itself as Santuary Ontario.

PC Leader Doug Ford voted in favour of these actions while on Toronto council, so Hussan expects he would not oppose doing so at the provincial level.
http://torontosun.com/news/provincial/ndps-sanctuary-ontario-must-have-broad-reach-activist-says

END QUOTE


----------



## Remius (28 May 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I would have almost considered the NDP even with their inexperience and candidates who don't seem military friendly but after hearing about their Sanctuary-Province idea they'd be worse than Wynne and the Liberals.



Hmn.  That would conflict with Ford’s voting history with the city where he supported something similar...

That might explain why he hasn’t had much to say on the sanctuary province issue.


----------



## Jarnhamar (28 May 2018)

Ford voted in support of making Ontario a sanctuary province? Where police would refuse federal immigration enforcement?

Guess I'll have to find someone else too.


----------



## Cloud Cover (28 May 2018)

It's a stupid ideological idea,  I doubt any sober provincial solicitor general who takes their job seriously would go to the bother of issuing directives and guidelines respecting policy matters like sanctuary cities for only one municipality when that could clearly violate the Constitution anyway.

"...any Law of the Legislature of a Province relative to Agriculture or to Immigration shall have effect in and for the Province as long and as far only as it is not repugnant to any Act of the Parliament of Canada.


----------



## Brad Sallows (28 May 2018)

"Inexperience" just might be the laziest cop-out there is.  The charge was leveled against the federal Liberals and Trudeau; it was leveled against the Conservatives and Harper.  An inexperienced or agenda-free government could do almost nothing at all for its first few months in office and the day-to-day operations of running the political entity will continue.

A fresh government at least has the promise of offering some new ideas at some point, and will be subject to the usual reality checks.  I don't recall any historical examples of flailing, stale, self-absorbed, clinging-to-power governments that, when re-elected, suddenly were full of awesome new ideas and fiscal responsibility.


----------



## Remius (28 May 2018)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> A fresh government at least has the promise of offering some new ideas at some point, and will be subject to the usual reality checks.  I don't recall any historical examples of flailing, stale, self-absorbed, clinging-to-power governments that, when re-elected, suddenly were full of awesome new ideas and fiscal responsibility.



Well said.  The last two elections in Ontario proved your point.


----------



## larry Strong (28 May 2018)

Gonna leave this here.....

https://globalnews.ca/news/4236201/ontario-election-poll-ndp-soften-pc-lead/

Thursday7 June will tell the story 

Cheers
Larry


----------



## Remius (29 May 2018)

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> Gonna leave this here.....
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/4236201/ontario-election-poll-ndp-soften-pc-lead/
> 
> ...




I wouldn’t be surprised if it drops more.  Her performance at the debate wasn’t very good.


----------



## Altair (29 May 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> I wouldn’t be surprised if it drops more.  Her performance at the debate wasn’t very good.


This poll is showing something quite odd.

The PCs are up one point, margin of error territory.

The liberals are at the same level of support.

The NDP are down 3 points.

But if the PCs and Liberals didn't budge, where did that support go?

The Ontario green party up from 4 percent to 7. Ah, there we go. NDP bled support to the greens. Interesting. I would like to see if this lasts.

The poll, conducted between May 25 and 27, so we shall see in the next week how that changes things, and if this green surge is a real thing.


----------



## Altair (29 May 2018)

https://www.mainstreetresearch.ca/ndp-surge-past-pcs-into-the-lead/

This poll, taken around the same time, showing something a little different



> The poll represents the last two days of Mainstreet’s Ontario Daily Tracker and was fielded on May 26th and May 27th – entirely before the Ontario Leaders’ Debate. The poll surveyed 1682 Ontarians and has a margin of error of +/- 2.39% and is accurate 19 times out of 20.
> 
> Among decided and leaning voters, the NDP currently enjoy 39.3% support (+10% from Mainstreet’s May 18th poll), while the PCs are currently at 37.9% (-4%). The Ontario Liberal Party led by Kathleen Wynne are at 16% (-6.3%). While the Greens led by Mike Schreiner are at 4.5% (-0.5%).


To Mainstreet has the PCs around the same, at 37, liberal vote collapsing further, much lower than IPSOS at 16, and the greens around their average of 4 percent as opposed to 7 in IPSOS.

Taken together, I don't see the NDP being as high as Mainstreet, or as low as IPSOS, probably around 37 percent, tied with the PCs, who both say are around 37 percent. I don't think the liberals are as low as Mainstreet or as high as IPSOS, 20 percent maybe? I do think mainstreet has the Greens accurately, I think IPSOS will be the outlier here, greens at 7? I would want to see other polls confirm this near doubling of support for the 4th party before I buy that one.


----------



## Cloud Cover (29 May 2018)

I was quite surprised at the polled level of support for the PC party in Northern Ontario- 39%.


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## Jarnhamar (29 May 2018)

https://www.google.ca/amp/torontosun.com/news/provincial/warmington-star-ndp-candidate-carried-f-the-police-protest-sign/amp

"star" NDP candidate  :nod:


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## Cloud Cover (29 May 2018)

I know some police officers who feel the same way about the NDP, but have class, wisdom and maturity to hold their tongue.


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## mariomike (29 May 2018)

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> I know some police officers who feel the same way about the NDP, but have class, wisdom and maturity to hold their tongue.



I recall the Ontario police and fire union ad campaigns in the last election. 

Ontario Provincial Police Association ( OPPA )
https://www.google.com/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&biw=1280&bih=603&ei=bM4NW673LOupjwSI5YOAAQ&q=opp+hudak&oq=opp+hudak&gs_l=psy-ab.3..35i39k1.56896.58904.0.59597.4.4.0.0.0.0.168.528.1j3.4.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.2.320...0i8i7i30k1j0i7i30k1j0i8i7i10i30k1j0i7i5i10i30k1.0.iT65j_9j48w

Ontario Provincial Firefighters Association ( OPFFA )
https://www.google.com/search?q=opffa+hudak&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj79oLW9qvbAhUE6oMKHej5CiAQ_AUICSgA&biw=1280&bih=603&dpr=1.5


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## Jarnhamar (29 May 2018)

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> I know some police officers who feel the same way about the NDP, but have class, wisdom and maturity to hold their tongue.



Some more examples of NDP candidate thoughts on that link.

Droning gun owners. 
Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan are murdering men women and children. 
Wearing the poppy is glorifying war (or words to the effect). 

Guess Im back to Mr Ford and hope he changes he actually doesn't support  the sanctuary province non-sense.

Lowering gas prices would be great too.


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## mariomike (29 May 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Guess Im back to Mr Ford and hope he changes he actually doesn't support  the sanctuary province non-sense.



Considering some have already voted, I'm hoping it won't be long before he releases the cost of his political platform,
https://www.google.com/search?ei=LNMNW8bTLIjJjwSkkpbwCA&q=%22doug+ford%22+cost+platform&oq=%22doug+ford%22+cost+platform&gs_l=psy-ab.12...156953.158547.0.160690.4.4.0.0.0.0.268.534.3j0j1.4.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.0fa1-8nXXUI


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## Jarnhamar (29 May 2018)

Why? Because doing so might make you vote for him?


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## mariomike (29 May 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Oh, my wife and I will be voting PC.





			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Why? Because doing so might make you vote for him?



Because everybody deserves a fresh start now and then. I'm only familiar with his record as a city councillor. 

I support provincial and municipal politicians who support our emergency services. Sometimes, their support seems a mile wide and an inch deep.

On Rob and Doug's watch, Toronto fire stations were shut-down. 

Including one only a 1 km. walk from my home. ( Attached photo. ) It had been in operation since 1927. The sign on the door reads, "Closed by Rob Ford."

"Stop the gravy train" was the Ford Nation slogan back then.

 QUOTE

“This is not about politics. It’s about public safety. They (Ford brothers) are misleading the public. The citizens aren’t aware of this, we’re making them aware because we’re concerned,” Kennedy added, noting firefighters are working on their off-time to notify residents in the four affected communities about the reduction in service.
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/04/19/doug_ford_firefighters_union_clash_over_fire_truck.html

Ed Kennedy, president of the Toronto Professional Firefighters Association ( TPFFA )

END QUOTE


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## Rifleman62 (29 May 2018)

marionmike: 





> .........I'm hoping it won't be long before he (Ford) releases the cost of his political platform ....



Why, what Party keeps election promises, intent, red books, etc?


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## Furniture (29 May 2018)

I had been considering Trillium Party as a protest vote, but seeing the NDP polling close to the PC has changed my mind. I don't particularly trust or like most politicians, but I really dislike the idea that continued deficit spending is the key to prosperity... seems far too much like Greece, Portugal, Spain, etc.. 

I think the voter turnout will decide this election, and traditionally the more conservative minded voters turn out in greater numbers.


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## Brad Sallows (30 May 2018)

Not everything that is shut down is a loss.  Very common example: schools are closed every year owing to demographic shifts, just as new ones are opened or existing ones are expanded.  Keeping surplus capacity operating costs money.  Maintaining unused real estate costs money.  There are too many calls on public purses for any one service to be operating above minimum requirement - more of X means less of Y, but Y is often one of those "unseen" things that is never included in the measurements.

It's impossible to judge any assertion about public services without knowing the whole (area coverage) picture.


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## mariomike (31 May 2018)

Doug released his, "Plan For The People",
https://www.google.com/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&biw=1280&bih=603&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A5%2F30%2F2018%2Ccd_max%3A5%2F31%2F2018&ei=sWUQW528LoOXjwSynbuICw&q=doug+ford+platform&oq=doug+ford+platform&gs_l=psy-ab.12...0.0.0.2679.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1c..64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.dNI_23r0IeI


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## jollyjacktar (2 Jun 2018)




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## FSTO (2 Jun 2018)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

>



Damn! Didn't realize Zod was running. I voted in the advance poll and voted for my local NOTA candidate.


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## Remius (2 Jun 2018)

FSTO said:
			
		

> Damn! Didn't realize Zod was running. I voted in the advance poll and voted for my local NOTA candidate.




Same.  He would have had my vote.


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## Jarnhamar (2 Jun 2018)

FSTO said:
			
		

> Damn! Didn't realize Zod was running. I voted in the advance poll and voted for my local NOTA candidate.



Did you drive there or walk?


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## jollyjacktar (2 Jun 2018)

Wynn acknowledges she's going down in flames and is trying to get some damage control.



> Wynne acknowledges election is lost, urges voters to ensure NDP or PC minority
> Some polls suggest the Liberals could lose official party status with fewer than 8 seats
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/wynne-liberals-ontario-election-minority-government-1.4689222


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## expwor (2 Jun 2018)

Doesn't matter if you're behind in the polls or not, if you get in an election race you run it to the end.  Quitting now frankly disgraceful IMO  She shouldn't have run at all. She didn't care about her supporters, her caucus members no one but herself. Sounds cliché but the only poll that counts is election night
A Liberal vote is truly a wasted vote in this election, and she saw to that

Tom


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## Edward Campbell (2 Jun 2018)

One _*guess*_, and that's all it is, is that the Liberal's polling says that the NDP's momentum has stalled, even slipped away and the Conservatives are headed towards a comfortable majority ... that will spell trouble for the Liberals because the PCPO will, very likely, want to open two or three judicial inquiries into various things that were done by both the McGuinty and Wynne administrations ... a Horwath government that depends upon LPO support might be willing to overlook the past 15 years. 

Maybe she's making a 'Hail Mary' play to try to stave off something worse than just losing the election.


----------



## ModlrMike (2 Jun 2018)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> ... a Horwath government that depends upon LPO support...



Will be just as bad as it is now, because the liberals will hold the balance of power.


----------



## Jarnhamar (2 Jun 2018)

I don't think Wynne is even voting liberal anymore.


----------



## Edward Campbell (2 Jun 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I don't think Wynne is even voting liberal anymore.




I wonder what her announcement does to her own, personal chances of winning her own riding (Don Vally West). My suspicion is that most of the soft left voters in Don Valley West will, now, take her statement as a signal to vote NDP and some (many?) Liberals might do the same ~ _sauve qui peut_ and all that ~ just to try and keep the seat in the _progressive_ camp. Equally I wonder if some right wing Liberals will not abandon Wynne because she's, in effect, given up and throw their support behind Team Ford. 

Wynne won Don Valley West with 57% of the vote in 2014 ~ that's in landslide territory except for the fact that the PCPO candidate took 30% of the vote. I don't think the riding is terribly _progressive_ and a lot of the people who voted for Wynne may be more inclined to swing right than left ... 

... just my  :2c:


----------



## FJAG (2 Jun 2018)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I wonder what her announcement does to her own, personal chances of winning her own riding (Don Vally West). My suspicion is that most of the soft left voters in Don Valley West will, now, take her statement as a signal to vote NDP and some (many?) Liberals might do the same ~ _sauve qui peut_ and all that ~ just to try and keep the seat in the _progressive_ camp. Equally I wonder if some right wing Liberals will not abandon Wynne because she's, in effect, given up and throw their support behind Team Ford.
> 
> Wynne won Don Valley West with 57% of the vote in 2014 ~ that's in landslide territory except for the fact that the PCPO candidate took 30% of the vote. I don't think the riding is terribly _progressive_ and a lot of the people who voted for Wynne may be more inclined to swing right than left ...
> 
> ... just my  :2c:



Is it only me that sees the irony in the fact that the only party that actually has the word "progressive" in its party name is the PCPO?  ;D

 :cheers:


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## George Wallace (3 Jun 2018)

Recent Polling:

https://www.scribd.com/document/380406307/Ontario-Proj-28-05-2018-Detailed


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## ModlrMike (3 Jun 2018)

This really comes down to which no-Wynne situation looks better. More of the same wrapped in orange, or something completely different wrapped in blue.


----------



## Cloud Cover (3 Jun 2018)

According to the CBC election poll tracker, Wynne's speech actually increased support for the Liberals and took away from both NDP and PC.  Not by much, but it's a good illustration of the schizophrenic nature of Ontario voters.


----------



## Jarnhamar (3 Jun 2018)

https://www.ontariopc.ca/meet_the_real_ndp_carbon_tax_crusader_joel_harden



> In the latest revelation about the real Ontario NDP agenda, Ontario PC Candidate Stephen Lecce today revealed that a star NDP candidate is continuing to court radical voters by calling for a $150/tonne carbon tax.
> 
> “Joel Harden is openly crusading for a carbon tax that will increase gas taxes by 35 cents per litre,” said Lecce.


----------



## Edward Campbell (3 Jun 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> https://www.ontariopc.ca/meet_the_real_ndp_carbon_tax_crusader_joel_harden



And in the poll posted just above by George Wallace, he has an 80+% chance of defeating a sitting Liberal cabinet minister (Yasir Navqi) in Ottawa Centre. People who topple ministers are often rewarded with a seat at the new cabinet table.


----------



## Remius (4 Jun 2018)

Looks like the PCPO starts the week with the edge. 

https://www.macleans.ca/politics/the-macleans-pollara-ontario-election-poll-doug-ford-gains-an-advantage/

Their vote efficiency is working for them.


----------



## Remius (4 Jun 2018)

Hmn,

Hard to tell if he is for more control or not...

https://www.680news.com/2018/06/04/doug-ford-gun-control/

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/doug-ford-gun-control-1.4690585

This last week is getting dirty I guess.


----------



## CountDC (4 Jun 2018)

Now wouldn't it be ironic if Wynne's move actually resulted in a large number of people deciding maybe it would be best to have a minority and going to vote liberal to make it happen but instead they win the election.

Give her credit on this one, losing anyways but still trying to grab the power.  If successful she also sets her party up for a comeback chance in the next election.

See the campaign now;

Everything good is because we pushed it through.
Everything bad was theirs but we had to let it through so they would allow our good stuff through.

Of course they would have to hem and haw a bit on all votes to make it look good.


----------



## George Wallace (4 Jun 2018)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Now wouldn't it be ironic if Wynne's move actually resulted in a large number of people deciding maybe it would be best to have a minority and going to vote liberal to make it happen but instead they win the election.



That is how I look at it.  A very crafty move to garner votes, and a win, like you said.

She is a master of manipulation.


----------



## Jarnhamar (4 Jun 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> Hmn,
> 
> Hard to tell if he is for more control or not...
> 
> ...



Anyone expect more from Wynne and company at this stage?


----------



## dapaterson (4 Jun 2018)

And Rob Ford's widow is suing Doug & Randy for breach of trust, conspiracy and “negligent mismanagement” of the family business.

http://torontosun.com/news/provincial/doug-ford-embroiled-in-family-legal-battle-over-brothers-estate


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## mariomike (4 Jun 2018)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> And Rob Ford's widow is suing Doug & Randy for breach of trust, conspiracy and “negligent mismanagement” of the family business.



Deco Labels was started in the 1960s by Doug Sr. He died in 2006. 

"Rob Ford’s widow sues Doug Ford, alleging he has deprived her and her children of millions"
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2018/06/04/rob-fords-widow-sues-doug-ford-alleging-he-has-deprived-them-of-millions.html


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## FJAG (4 Jun 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Deco Labels was started in the 1960s by Doug Sr. He died in 2006.
> 
> "Rob Ford’s widow sues Doug Ford, alleging he has deprived her and her children of millions"
> https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2018/06/04/rob-fords-widow-sues-doug-ford-alleging-he-has-deprived-them-of-millions.html



I've read the claim and find it interesting in two respects:

1st is that it pleads an excessive amount of alleged evidence rather than material facts. In general, claims are designed to define issues while a further and later process called "discovery" is used to define and present the supporting evidence to the material facts. In my experience, lawyers who plead extraneous evidence do so because they wish to set a tone in the pleadings for either their clients (to make them think they are fighting hard for them) or alternatively for the press when they intend to besmirch/shame the opposition in public.

2nd is that much of the wrongdoing that she says Randy and Doug did in what she calls running down the business and extracting large amounts of money for their own families' benefit was done during the time when Bob was still alive. Whatever thought I might have of Bob as a mayor doesn't detract from the fact that I'm sure that he was quite capable of looking after his own and his own families interest under Doug Senior's estate and his interest in the various companies.

IMHO there's something else at play here. I doubt that either Renata or her lawyers could have realistically expected that this approach would have brought Doug to the table for a quick settlement at this particular time. Neither is there a limitation period at play that necessitated that the claim be filed prior to rather than after the election. It certainly makes me question what their intentions were to do this at this time?

 ???


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## mariomike (4 Jun 2018)

Ford Nation was Rob's tribe. 

Although Doug wasted no time taking on the FN mantle, hosting Rob's lying-in-state in the City Hall rotunda, and co-opting the @fordnation tag.

Will Renata's lawsuit cause a few FN'ers to turn against Doug?

QUOTE ( satire )

Doug Ford finds millions in efficiencies in brother’s widow’s inheritance
Etobicoke, ON – After Renata Ford, his brother’s widow, accused him of stealing money from her Rob Ford’s estate, Doug Ford issued a statement showing how his cost-cutting measures actually help his brother’s family.

“The Rob Ford estate was bloated and wasteful. So much of it was going towards healthcare, his children’s education, housing, and other inessentials,” explained Doug Ford. “But how much money do his two children and their mother really need? It’s far better to put that money into private enterprises, like my bank account.”
https://www.thebeaverton.com/2018/06/doug-ford-finds-millions-in-efficiencies-in-brothers-widows-inheritance/

END QUOTE

Not satire,

"Doug Ford apologizes for using ‘Polack’ to describe Rob Ford’s wife" 
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2012/06/10/doug_ford_apologizes_for_using_polack_to_describe_rob_fords_wife.html


----------



## dapaterson (5 Jun 2018)

Takes a while to load, but the Laurier Institute has a forecast up.  Spoiler alert: There's not much red on the map.

http://maps.lispop.ca/ontario_projections/


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## Fishbone Jones (5 Jun 2018)

I haven't looked real hard, but the way I understand it, she wants the kids trust fund released early, to her, as opposed to what's in the will. There are two executors of the will, Doug Ford and another person. Both have decided, as the legal executors, to not to pay the trust fund out early, and follow the intent of the last wishes, as laid out in the will.

If true, he's following the intent of the will, not stealing from her or anyone else or mismanaging his position.

Have I got that right?


----------



## observor 69 (5 Jun 2018)

More details at link: https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2018/06/04/rob-fords-widow-sues-doug-ford-alleging-he-has-deprived-them-of-millions.html

Doug Ford has “knowingly and deliberately put (Renata and her two children) in a highly stressful and unfair financial position during their period of grief after Rob Ford’s death, and continued to do so for more than two years after Rob Ford’s death,” the statement of claim alleges.

The lawsuit was filed by lawyers from Aird & Berlis LLP in Superior Court against Doug, his brother Randy (who is a top executive at Deco), and the Deco company itself. The allegations have not been proven in court.

Doug Ford has “knowingly and deliberately put (Renata and her two children) in a highly stressful and unfair financial position during their period of grief after Rob Ford’s death, and continued to do so for more than two years after Rob Ford’s death,” the statement of claim alleges.

The lawsuit was filed by lawyers from Aird & Berlis LLP in Superior Court against Doug, his brother Randy (who is a top executive at Deco), and the Deco company itself. The allegations have not been proven in court.


----------



## Remius (5 Jun 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I haven't looked real hard, but the way I understand it, she wants the kids trust fund released early, to her, as opposed to what's in the will. There are two executors of the will, Doug Ford and another person. Both have decided, as the legal executors, to not to pay the trust fund out early, and follow the intent of the last wishes, as laid out in the will.
> 
> If true, he's following the intent of the will, not stealing from her or anyone else or mismanaging his position.
> 
> Have I got that right?



I've read a bit but again some of this is he said she said. 

Looks like Doug would have suggested they deal with the estate without lawyers.  The estate was supposed to be split three ways between her and the two kids.  Doug tried to or did buy Rob's shares in the company and sold them for much higher.  Also it seems he has yet to fully disclose the estate value to Renatta.

Two things though ring alarm bells for me.

1) The timing seems opportunistic. 
2) The fact that the wife is not an executor is telling


----------



## GAP (5 Jun 2018)

> 1) The timing seems opportunistic.
> 2) The fact that the wife is not an executor is telling



1) was done to hurt Ford's election chances

2) there probably a very good reason why she is not an executor


----------



## FJAG (5 Jun 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I haven't looked real hard, but the way I understand it, she wants the kids trust fund released early, to her, as opposed to what's in the will. There are two executors of the will, Doug Ford and another person. Both have decided, as the legal executors, to not to pay the trust fund out early, and follow the intent of the last wishes, as laid out in the will.
> 
> If true, he's following the intent of the will, not stealing from her or anyone else or mismanaging his position.
> 
> Have I got that right?



Not exactly. But maybe.

First and foremost she is looking for several orders that Doug and Randy have breached their obligations to properly administer the various estates and that they have benefited themselves and their families at the expense of the estates. She requires that the estates' accounts be passed and that the funds which have left the estates be traced to determine where they ended up. In addition she wants Doug and Randy removed as trustees of the estates and replaced. - these are pretty common requests that come up in estate disputes.

Secondly she is seeking damages from Doug and Randy for breach of trust, negligence, conspiracy and breach of duty for the way they handled the estate in the amount of at least $5 million in favour of herself and each of her kids and a further $250,000 as punitive damages. - again, pretty standard estate dispute stuff (except for the punitive damages stuff).

There are two estates here: Doug Snr's and Rob's. 

As far as Snr's is concerned (and please note I only know of these wills what it says in the pleadings) it appears that the capital is to remain in trust as long as Ruth (Snr's wife) remains alive (and I understand she's still alive). None of Snr's kids (or their beneficiaries in the case of Rob) have any entitlement to any of that estate until Ruth dies. That doesn't mean however that Rob's wife and kids can't take legal action to protect and preserve that estate if it is being mismanaged by the Trustees (albeit that would be an uphill road if Ruth is satisfied with the way it is being managed and their are logical business reasons for what is being done.)

As far as Rob's estate is concerned (which undoubtedly has a component over and above Rob's or Rob's estate's eventual rights to share in Snr's estate), Rob's wife and kids have much greater rights as they are the direct beneficiaries of it. Rob died two years ago and generally trustees are expected to settle the affairs of an estate within a year, give or take (more complex estates can take much longer while simple estates shouldn't take that long) It's impossible to tell from these pleadings as to whether or not Doug is dragging his feet or dealing with very complex issues. It may well be that she (and her kids) have already received a large bulk of this estate. It is clear that she has received some information (and assets?) but she thinks she should have more.

The thrust of her allegation regarding Snr's estate (and which seems to be where the big dollars are being lost) is that at the time that Snr was alive the Deco companies were very valuable but at the time of Rob's death the shares he held were virtually without value (and I presume these are shares that Rob held over and above whatever his or his estate's entitlement might be in Snr's estate on Ruth's death). She points to specific losses from the financial statements several years after Snr's death as evidence of mismanagement etc. Again, it's impossible to say whether or not these losses are evidence of mismanagement etc or something else altogether.

The thing with statements of claim is that they are only designed to outline the basic framework of the claim. The real evidence gets developed during the "discovery" phase which can take years and is done outside of the public courtroom. In a proceeding in Ontario a party named as a defendant has twenty days from when he is served with the claim to file a Statement of Defence or Notice of Intent to Defend. If a Notice of Intent is filed they have an additional 10 days to file the Statement of Defence. A Statement of Defence will give an outline of the defendants' position as to the claim. I'll be interested in seeing what Doug and Randy and the other defendants have to say.

 :cheers:


----------



## observor 69 (5 Jun 2018)

More info on this story from the CBC:

Doug Ford calls allegations in sister-in-law's lawsuit 'false and without merit'

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/doug-ford-calls-allegations-in-sister-in-law-s-lawsuit-false-and-without-merit-1.4692165


----------



## Fishbone Jones (5 Jun 2018)

So, she's made accusations, formed a media circus to disrupt his election plans and nothing has been proven.

Ì have a feeling some one approached her and offered to pay the legal bills and pin money to get her to launch. With the way Wynne has been nonstop about it, it wouldn't surprise me if it was the grits. All speculation though. The party lawyers usually sift through everything you're involved in, including this. They didnt think it was big enough to bother with. It's likely a desperation attempt by his opposition.


----------



## Remius (5 Jun 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> So, she's made accusations, formed a media circus to disrupt his election plans and nothing has been proven.
> 
> Ì have a feeling some one approached her and offered to pay the legal bills and pin money to get her to launch. With the way Wynne has been nonstop about it, it wouldn't surprise me if it was the grits. All speculation though. The party lawyers usually sift through everything you're involved in, including this. They didnt think it was big enough to bother with. It's likely a desperation attempt by his opposition.



I doubt it.  Why concede the race and then reveal this?

This just seems more of a personal thing.  according to Ford, he was approached and was threatened that this would go public unless he settled.  It's no secret that the Ford Family is a bit of a mess so none of this is surprising. 

I'm not sure they really like each other...

https://torontolife.com/city/toronto-politics/doug-ford-polack/


----------



## mariomike (5 Jun 2018)

When Doug ran for mayor, he pointed to his success as a businessman,
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/doug-ford-at-deco/article21067584/


----------



## ModlrMike (5 Jun 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> ... he was approached and was threatened that this would go public unless he settled.



Sounds sort of extortionist if you ask me.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (5 Jun 2018)

I get that Ford may not be popular to some. However, only those in his riding are really the only ones voting for him......òr not.

Ì have trouble with those that still want to vote grit after what has taken place over the last 15 years.

Ì really have trouble believing that the dippers, who have already decided to stay the current course and accelerate its end game. Sanctuary province should have been enough to scare the bejesus out of sane working taxpayers. Never mind the rest of her platform and the bevy of useless crackpots and deranged candidates. Can anyone put forward a reason to stick with the socialists (either the grits or.dippers)?


----------



## jollyjacktar (5 Jun 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> I doubt it.  Why concede the race and then reveal this?
> 
> This just seems more of a personal thing.  according to Ford, he was approached and was threatened that this would go public unless he settled.  It's no secret that the Ford Family is a bit of a mess so none of this is surprising.
> 
> I'm not sure they really like each other..



You can rest assured they sure as hell aren't going to after this settles down.  Especially if it torpedoes his chances


----------



## blacktriangle (5 Jun 2018)

I live in a liberal/socialist wasteland (Ottawa Centre) filled with underemployed hipsters and smug "professionals". 

Excited to vote I am   ;D


----------



## George Wallace (5 Jun 2018)

Spectrum said:
			
		

> I live in a liberal/socialist wasteland (Ottawa Centre) filled with underemployed hipsters and smug "professionals".
> 
> Excited to vote I am   ;D


 :rofl:


----------



## Halifax Tar (5 Jun 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I get that Ford may not be popular to some. However, only those in his riding are really the only ones voting for him......òr not.
> 
> Ì have trouble with those that still want to vote grit after what has taken place over the last 15 years.
> 
> Ì really have trouble believing that the dippers, who have already decided to stay the current course and accelerate its end game. Sanctuary province should have been enough to scare the bejesus out of sane working taxpayers. Never mind the rest of her platform and the bevy of useless crackpots and deranged candidates. Can anyone put forward a reason to stick with the socialists (either the grits or.dippers)?



George I agree with you.  But you and I both know most of the population has their head in the sand and all parties have a certain percentage that will always vote for that party no matter what is on the platform. 

As an Ontario Ex Pat, who leans conservative, I would be really torn on who to cast my vote for.


----------



## observor 69 (5 Jun 2018)

This article in the Toronto Star lays out there advice for the Ontario voter:

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/2018/06/01/ontario-voters-should-back-ndp-to-stop-doug-ford.html


"All three parties (including the PCs) plan to keep running deficits for the next few years. The next government needs to pay greater attention to getting the province’s finances in order; we can’t assume the relatively good economic times will continue indefinitely. (It was, as we’ve written before, a mistake for the Liberals to return to deficit financing in their last budget after struggling so hard to balance the books.)

What’s at stake in Thursday’s election is the future of the province. That’s more important than any strictly partisan choice and progressive voters should think beyond their loyalties to a particular party. They shouldn’t risk giving Doug Ford the chance to drag this province backwards, and in the great majority of ridings that means supporting the New Democrat.

Ontarians are obviously looking for change: the polls are clear on that. But the same polls show the majority of people in this province are fundamentally progressive.

They want, and deserve, a government committed to openness, inclusivity and making sure our prosperity is more widely shared. On June 7 voters should support candidates who will uphold those values."


----------



## PuckChaser (5 Jun 2018)

Lays out advice for the Ontario voter written by the NDP PR team...


----------



## mariomike (5 Jun 2018)

I voted Ford Nation in 2010. After fours years of chaos, voted against them in 2014. Will vote FN again in 2018. 

Because everyone deserves a fresh start now and then.

Interesting editorial in today's Globe. 

QUOTE

For Ontario voters, leadership and vision are not on offer
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/editorials/article-globe-editorial-for-ontario-voters-leadership-and-vision-are-not-on/

END QUOTE

Hard times for Renata and the kids? Their home is for sale.

That place would be pretty legendary to own!


----------



## dapaterson (6 Jun 2018)

With forecasts as low as two surviving Liberals in the provincial legislature, Yasir Naqvi may become Jean Charest to Kathleen Wynne's Elsie Wayne...


----------



## mariomike (7 Jun 2018)

FJAG said:
			
		

> There are two estates here: Doug Snr's and Rob's.



Thank-you for your insight, FJAG.

During the 2010-2014 era in Toronto politics, while Rob was alive, there was an ongoing discussion, which was: "How well did Doug run Deco?

Nobody had access to Deco's records, because it's a privately owned company.

It was common knowledge that Doug Sr. had run the company well. He legitimately made himself rich. And before he passed in 2006, had established a good number of longstanding business relationships with solid, long-term customers which essentially ensured the company's future - so long as nobody dramatically screwed it up. 

If Doug wants to prove Renata wrong, and prove to voters he is a good businessman, could he not simply release Deco's financial statements?


----------



## Cloud Cover (7 Jun 2018)

That will happen during the 'discovery' process, not the election process. Even if Ford is the president of the company, he has legal obligations to protect any other co-owners (if any) or others that he may have  duty to. For example, his private lenders and creditors may have non-disclosure terms in lending agreements with contractual rights to obtain interlocutor relief to protect their interests. So, it's not just about what Doug may want to prove, but the method and process by which he does so.


----------



## mariomike (7 Jun 2018)

During Doug's unsuccessful campaign for mayor in 2014, he said that his experience as president of Deco ( which he inherited from his father in 2006 ) qualified him to manage city money.

All Toronto voters knew about Deco was what we read in the papers at the time,
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/doug-ford-at-deco/article21067584/


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt (7 Jun 2018)

I remain stupified by the Ontario PC Party's ability to nominate the worst possible candidates given the choices available....

I will be voting PC because my fear of Doug Ford's combination of obnoxiousness and stupidity is only slightly lower than my fear of Andrea's candidates' "crazy".

For next election, I may actually join the 'Consensus' party and assist with their campaign - they were just a little late to get rolling this time around to have much of an impact.


M.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (7 Jun 2018)

I truly feel sorry for Ontarians today, trying to decide who to vote for.

Good Luck.


----------



## observor 69 (7 Jun 2018)

Just finished voting.    Get out and vote Ontario!!


----------



## FJAG (7 Jun 2018)

Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> I remain stupified by the Ontario PC Party's ability to nominate the worst possible candidates given the choices available....
> 
> I will be voting PC because my fear of Doug Ford's combination of obnoxiousness and stupidity is only slightly lower than my fear of Andrea's candidates' "crazy".
> 
> ...



I'm with you with one exception, I have been a long time party member but more recently have not become involved in the leadership race(s). I think it's past due time to get re-involved and take the party back.

 :cheers:


----------



## dapaterson (7 Jun 2018)

Vote early, vote often.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (7 Jun 2018)

FJAG said:
			
		

> I'm with you with one exception, I have been a long time party member but more recently have not become involved in the leadership race(s). I think it's past due time to get re-involved and take the party back.
> 
> :cheers:



Take it back from whom? Doug Ford won the Party election. He was voted in by the rank and file with a majority. Unless you're in his riding, you are not voting for him. I wish people would move past their personal dislike of Ford. For me, it was a decision on a socialist government, a radical socialist government or a conservative government. I want to keep the money that I worked 50 odd years to collect and invest. I have no compunction whatsoever to help any illegals, border jumpers, sanctuary politicians or paid anarchists. I voted for the party closest to my values and wants and that was Conservative. Do I care Ford might fuck up? Absolutely, but so far, no cause for alarm. As opposed to the grits and dippers, who's pogroms, dirty dealings and potential ties to Soros stink to high heaven and we've already seen the havoc, financial and cultural, that both leftist parties will promote in order to gain full control. Ontario is on the cusp of being able to pull back and not become another communist failure. It'll take time, but if we don't do it now, I fear we won't get another chance in the future.

Doug Ford is someone I see on TV. I've never met him, nor likely ever will. I can't judge someone by what I read or hear from the MSM, unless there is multiple reporting of the same incident by all the MSM, with the same facts. Horvath and Wynne fit that bill, 15 years of watching both is enough to draw conclusions. Being in an election, I'm not interested, nor believe, in the lies of the media or opposition. It's garbage and innuendo. I will judge Doug Ford on what I see from him as Premier. Not what some gender bent, antifa, blm, unionist, etc, etc has decided, will be good for me. Time to swing the pendulum the other way, before it breaks off and remains on the left.

Already voted.


----------



## Edward Campbell (7 Jun 2018)

FJAG said:
			
		

> I'm with you with one exception, I have been a long time party member but more recently have not become involved in the leadership race(s). I think it's past due time to get re-involved and take the party back.
> 
> :cheers:




I've done as you did and now I'm thinking the same way you are.

----------

I voted today. Fortunately I have a good solid PCPO candidate here ~ I'm in Ottawa centre, with Spectrum ~ so I can vote PC{PO despite Doug Ford's manifest lack of qualifications to hold high office.

----------

I want to see the parliamentary/legislative leadership being largely in the hands of elected MPs and MPPs and candidates for election with some votes going to riding associations: say a 75 : 25 split, while the Party platform should be largely drafted and decided in the riding associations, by grass-roots members and then voted on in open conventions. The platform should then be required to be signed by every prospective candidate ... you join the Party, you run on the Party's platform, every bit of it, and then you, as a candidate, get to pick your party's leader.

If the members of the PCPO caucus think that Doug Ford can be, will be a good leaders in the legislature and a good premier then they should select him from their ranks; if they think someone else in the caucus will do a better job then they should have a bit of a revolt and elect a new premier ... as recceguy says, none of vote for the premier, we all vote for a representative of our community, those representatives then give their confidence to one Party in the legislature to form a government and that Party should select the premier from the ranks of its elected members.


----------



## mariomike (7 Jun 2018)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Fortunately I have a good solid PCPO candidate here ~ I'm in Ottawa centre, with Spectrum ~ so I can vote PC{PO despite Doug Ford's manifest lack of qualifications to hold high office.



Regarding the part I highlighted in your post.

I voted Doug with the hope he will get in at Queen's Park.

Otherwise, if he does not get in there, registration for candidates is only 1 km. away at City Hall. 
It is open until July 27, with the election on October 22, 2018.

It has been mercifully shortened from the ten-month campaign we went through in 2014.

Assuming Doug gets in at Queen's Park, he may be able to impose the "strong mayor - one person in charge" system on Toronto.

Rob voted against it as a councillor, _when David Miller was mayor._ 

Fortunately, when Rob was mayor, under the "weak mayor" system, he was unable to veto city council. 

Unlike a city employee, they could not fire him. But, because Rob lacked veto power, as a matter of public safety, they were able to transfer his authority during a state of emergency to the Deputy Mayor. 

If Premier Doug Ford is able to impose the "strong mayor" system - with veto power - on Toronto, it could make things interesting if his nephew, Ward 2 Councillor Michael Ford, were to successfully run against Mayor Tory this October. 
http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/ontario-pc-leader-says-hed-like-to-bring-in-a-u-s-style-strong-mayor-system-for-cities-one-person-in-charge?utm_campaign=magnet&utm_source=article_page&utm_medium=related_articles


----------



## FJAG (7 Jun 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Take it back from whom? Doug Ford won the Party election. He was voted in by the rank and file with a majority. Unless you're in his riding, you are not voting for him. I wish people would move past their personal dislike of Ford. For me, it was a decision on a socialist government, a radical socialist government or a conservative government. I want to keep the money that I worked 50 odd years to collect and invest. I have no compunction whatsoever to help any illegals, border jumpers, sanctuary politicians or paid anarchists. I voted for the party closest to my values and wants and that was Conservative. Do I care Ford might frig up? Absolutely, but so far, no cause for alarm. As opposed to the grits and dippers, who's pogroms, dirty dealings and potential ties to Soros stink to high heaven and we've already seen the havoc, financial and cultural, that both leftist parties will promote in order to gain full control. Ontario is on the cusp of being able to pull back and not become another communist failure. It'll take time, but if we don't do it now, I fear we won't get another chance in the future.
> 
> Doug Ford is someone I see on TV. I've never met him, nor likely ever will. I can't judge someone by what I read or hear from the MSM, unless there is multiple reporting of the same incident by all the MSM, with the same facts. Horvath and Wynne fit that bill, 15 years of watching both is enough to draw conclusions. Being in an election, I'm not interested, nor believe, in the lies of the media or opposition. It's garbage and innuendo. I will judge Doug Ford on what I see from him as Premier. Not what some gender bent, antifa, blm, unionist, etc, etc has decided, will be good for me. Time to swing the pendulum the other way, before it breaks off and remains on the left.
> 
> Already voted.



So have I. And while this may surprise you I agree with everything that you say in your first paragraph and that's exactly why I voted Conservative.

My problem isn't with the general party platform. It's with the process by which we chose our leader and, quite frankly, many of my fellow Conservatives who think that he was the best option that we had. 

I don't like Ford. While I respect that he only had a month or so to pull it together, it struck me that he did poorly in the campaign. He was absent as the face of the party, did poorly in the debates, showed a poor party platform and alienated many long-time conservatives. (I've been arguing with some of my own family members who do feel that a Conservative vote is an endorsement of Ford which they are not, in good conscience, prepared to do.) On a personal level Ford doesn't strike me as the best that the business community can offer nor as someone who has a firm grasp on provincial issues and provincial government. He might be a successful city councillor but has no experience at the provincial level. I'll give his personal life a by although his early drug history gives me some pause. Before you say it, I do agree that the proof is sketchy at best and long predates his entry into provincial politics. As I said I give him a by and for all that I hear he is a personable, genuinely nice guy.

I think that at the time he was selected as leader, we conservatives were surging well ahead in the polls. It's after he was selected that the PC's started their drop of 10 points and the NDP their rise. Who couldn't forsee that. There's been a modest comeback and quite frankly I think that in the solitude of the voting booth, more folks are going to swallow their bile and mark down "Conservative" in spite of Ford and the polls and to spite Wynne and Horwath. It would be nice though if the province voted for a leader/party they trust and respect instead of voting against ones they revile.

 :cheers:


----------



## mariomike (7 Jun 2018)

FJAG said:
			
		

> He might be a successful city councillor but has no experience at the provincial level.



In reference to the highlighted.

QUOTE

National Post

Doug Ford once branded himself Toronto's 'co-mayor.' What did he and brother Rob accomplish at City Hall?
http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/doug-ford-once-branded-himself-torontos-co-mayor-what-did-he-and-brother-rob-accomplish-at-city-hall

END QUOTE

Regarding his attendance,
https://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/toronto2014election/2014/09/16/doug_ford_had_thirdworst_attendance_missed_53_per_cent_of_2014_city_council_votes.html


----------



## Remius (7 Jun 2018)

FJAG said:
			
		

> So have I. And while this may surprise you I agree with everything that you say in your first paragraph and that's exactly why I voted Conservative.
> 
> My problem isn't with the general party platform. It's with the process by which we chose our leader and, quite frankly, many of my fellow Conservatives who think that he was the best option that we had.
> 
> ...



I agree. It will be a win despite Ford.

One thing I do console myself with is that his Caucus will have real talent unlike the NDP.  Someone on the radio today stated that we'll learn a lot more about where Ford plans to take us with who he names to cabinet.  In particular finance, health and education.  If someone like Elliott or Mulroney are the finance minister we might be able to take that as a more centrist approach.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (7 Jun 2018)

I see not having been involved with provincial government as a boon. He gets to come in with a clean fresh look. The municipal governments that Doug Ford sat on were bigger than some provincial legislatures. He, has surrounded himself with good, solid people. As a true leader does. And not surround yourself with radicals that alienate a large swath of voters every time they open their mouths.

Everyone has to start somewhere and politics is politics. The same rules of order exist in all levels. Whether at the municipal, provincial or federal level. I don't even blame him for not costing his whole platform. How would that be fiscally responsible without a look at the books? You have to know where you came from before you can plan to move on. The grits cooked the books for 15 years. They've been slammed by all the financial oversite bodies in the province. Yet Horvath and Wynne would have you believe they have it all figured out, except they don't know what's in the bank to back their promises. That is a huge tell for me. Any shortfall caused by their lack of prep and dishonesty will have to be made up with more and more taxes. Until we, then the government, run out of our money.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (7 Jun 2018)

FJAG said:
			
		

> So have I. And while this may surprise you I agree with everything that you say in your first paragraph and that's exactly why I voted Conservative.
> 
> My problem isn't with the general party platform. It's with the process by which we chose our leader and, quite frankly, many of my fellow Conservatives who think that he was the best option that we had.
> 
> ...



I'm not impressed with the dipper rise in the polls. At first, it appeared strange, and I was genuinely confused. Then the news broke that Horvath was being supported by a Soros spin off super pac. http://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/lilley-foreign-funded-activist-group-helping-andrea-horwaths-ndp and that our very own public broadcaster would partner with Soros for their coverage. http://brianlilley.com/cbc-joins-forces-with-far-left-soros-backed-group/

I might even wager that the reason for Horvath's open border, sanctuary province promise was payment for Soros' support. The same support the Clintons and Obama paid for. Look where Clinton was polling and what happened to her. Phony polls get you phony advertising and phony results.

Nor am I worried about Horvath's chances today. 




But Ive been wrong before also.


----------



## Remius (7 Jun 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I see not having been involved with provincial government as a boon. He gets to come in with a clean fresh look. The municipal governments that Doug Ford sat on were bigger than some provincial legislatures. He, has surrounded himself with good, solid people. As a true leader does. And not surround yourself with radicals that alienate a large swath of voters every time they open their mouths.
> 
> Everyone has to start somewhere and politics is politics. The same rules of order exist in all levels. Whether at the municipal, provincial or federal level. I don't even blame him for not costing his whole platform. How would that be fiscally responsible without a look at the books? You have to know where you came from before you can plan to move on. The grits cooked the books for 15 years. They've been slammed by all the financial oversite bodies in the province. Yet Horvath and Wynne would have you believe they have it all figured out, except they don't know what's in the bank to back their promises. That is a huge tell for me. Any shortfall caused by their lack of prep and dishonesty will have to be made up with more and more taxes. Until we, then the government, run out of our money.



It is and it isn't.  Ford hasn't demonstrated any real depth or understanding of certain policies and files beyond catch phrases and slogans.  I hope that changes.  they did a good job of keeping him bubble wrapped throughout the campaign. 

I agree that he has good people that he inherited.  Hopefully he will use them.

Costing is what it is and frankly really at the end of the day doesn't matter.  Like you said they'll know when they see the books.  I have no doubt that the conservatives will say that things are worse than they thought and that inefficiencies will now include job and service cuts.  It will just depend on how that is accomplished.


----------



## ModlrMike (7 Jun 2018)

I am not afraid of an army of lions led by a sheep; I am afraid of an army of sheep led by a lion. Alexander the Great

I would suggest that the Conservatives are the former, and the Liberals are the later. YMMV.


----------



## FJAG (7 Jun 2018)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I am not afraid of an army of lions led by a sheep; I am afraid of an army of sheep led by a lion. Alexander the Great
> 
> I would suggest that the Conservatives are the former, and the Liberals are the later. YMMV.



I'm with you but what about the proverbial wolf in sheep's clothing?   ;D

 :cheers:


----------



## Retired AF Guy (7 Jun 2018)

Another 25 minutes and we will start to see the results coming in.  ???


----------



## Remius (7 Jun 2018)

The only result I want to see is Liberals being thrown out.  That is the one certainty I have about this election.  

I just hope that what we get will not be worse.


----------



## Remius (7 Jun 2018)

ALREAdy called. Lol.  That was fast.

Congrats PCPO.


----------



## Remius (7 Jun 2018)

Green Party wins a seat.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (7 Jun 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> ALREAdy called. Lol.  That was fast.
> 
> Congrats PCPO.



So much for polls saying NDP and PC being neck-to-neck.


----------



## dapaterson (7 Jun 2018)

Right now, 40% PCPO vs 35% NDP.  Within the margin of error of polls published.

Potentially a question of turnout vs polling - NDP vote skews young, and young voters are generally less likely to vote (2015 Federal election being perhaps an exception).


----------



## Remius (7 Jun 2018)

Liberals close to party status but not called yet...


----------



## Remius (7 Jun 2018)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> So much for polls saying NDP and PC being neck-to-neck.



In popular vote yes but all polls were predicting a conservative win based on distribution.


----------



## Remius (7 Jun 2018)

OH man.  Kathleen win I sent leading in her riding.  Her seat may mean party status or not.  What does she do if she wins? She can’t step down as an MP.  Interesting.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (7 Jun 2018)

I'm wondering how PM Trudeau is looking at this win?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (7 Jun 2018)

I think i saw Wynne just lost her riding to the PC party.

As usual, the unionists in my town have once again elected a bunch of candidates not from the governing party. And once again we live another 4 years of political wasteland and gratuitous scorn from Queens Park.

However, I'm happy as a pig in shit that Ford is in it for a very large majority. I hope Trudeau and his incompetent caucus  is paying attention.


----------



## Remius (7 Jun 2018)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> I'm wondering how PM Trudeau is looking at this win?



One of two ways. And I am guessing.

 Worried about that kind of rejection of left wing policies. 

Happy to have a foil.  Ford will be the new boogeyman.


----------



## jollyjacktar (7 Jun 2018)

Somebody please tell me Laura Kaminker of the NDP fame has thundered in.  That would make my day.


----------



## Remius (7 Jun 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I think i saw Wynne just lost her riding to the PC party



She’s still leading. By a thousand votes so far give or take.


----------



## cavalryman (7 Jun 2018)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Somebody please tell me Laura Kaminker of the NDP fame has thundered in.  That would make my day.



Don't know if that's thundering in, but we won't have to listen to Ms Kaminker's ignorant BS in the legislature at any rate.

Mississauga Centre
44 of 105 polls reporting
24,437 total votes
10,193 Natalia Kusendova - PC
6,462 Laura Kaminker - NDP
6,224 Bobbie Daid - LIB
676 Noah Gould - GRN
552 Alex Pacis - SSE
229 Farouk Giga - LTN
101 Viktor Chornopyskyy - OMP


----------



## dapaterson (7 Jun 2018)

And this one's dedicated to Kathleen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGytDsqkQY8


----------



## jollyjacktar (7 Jun 2018)

Excellent, now she can go back to her rock or wherever she crawled out from under.


----------



## Remius (7 Jun 2018)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Excellent, now she can go back to her rock or wherever she crawled out from under.



If she wins her seat we won’t see the last of her...


----------



## dapaterson (7 Jun 2018)

Or even...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnQ8N1KacJc


----------



## jollyjacktar (7 Jun 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> If she wins her seat we won’t see the last of her...



Not bloody likely.  ;D


----------



## Remius (7 Jun 2018)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Not bloody likely.  ;D




And Wynne resigns as liberal leader.


----------



## FJAG (7 Jun 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> Green Party wins a seat.



My daughter lives there and couldn't be happier.  :facepalm:

 :cheers:


----------



## FJAG (8 Jun 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> She’s still leading. By a thousand votes so far give or take.



At the moment she's leading with 43 votes and one poll left to report. I smell a recount coming.

 :cheers:


----------



## jollyjacktar (8 Jun 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> And Wynne resigns as liberal leader.



I wasn't gloating at Wynne, l was gloating at the NDP candidate from Mississauga Centre.


----------



## Infanteer (8 Jun 2018)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> From the article:
> 
> Ford just has to continue to appeal to a base, whereas Horwath needs to get people out to vote and decide that she and her party are their first choice.



Oh man, did I ever call that.  I should be a political pundit....naahhh.


----------



## FJAG (8 Jun 2018)

FJAG said:
			
		

> At the moment she's leading with 43 votes and one poll left to report. I smell a recount coming.
> 
> :cheers:



All polls in now and she's re-elected by 181 votes.

 :facepalm:


----------



## dapaterson (8 Jun 2018)

FJAG said:
			
		

> All polls in now and she's re-elected by 181 votes.
> 
> :facepalm:



Is there a statutory requirement for a recount if the margin is below a certain level?

There's a handful of down to the wire ridings.

EDIT: Saw this on Twitter.  25 votes or less and there shall be a recount; bigger margin and a recount may be requested by anyone.

https://twitter.com/KatePorterCBC/status/1004931932403036161


----------



## Jarnhamar (8 Jun 2018)

> A poll leaked Thursday suggested Andrea Horwath’s NDP had a whopping 10-point lead over Doug Ford’s PCs in the Ontario election campaign.



Good ol media polls.


----------



## FJAG (8 Jun 2018)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Is there a statutory requirement for a recount if the margin is below a certain level?
> 
> There's a handful of down to the wire ridings.
> 
> ...



This is covered by the Ontario Election Act RSO 1990 c. E.6

https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90e06

The provisions for recounts starts at s. 69. In short any candidate may apply to a judge of the Ontario Court of Justice for a judicial recount if he/she alleges that ballots were improperly counted, rejected, improperly tabulated or the number of votes cast for a candidate were misstated. In addition under s 67(2) where the lead candidate won by less than 25 votes, the returning officer shall apply for a judicial recount.

Incidentally. Did anyone else think that the new automated tabulation machines at the polls that they stuffed your ballot into looked strangely similar to a shredder?

 :cheers:


----------



## Fishbone Jones (8 Jun 2018)

I'm going to sleep really well tonight. The tearing of hair, the rending of flesh and the smack in the face of reality for the left, is amusingly satisfying. The fact that they just moved to the bottom rung and that their voice is muted, must be like psychotic break for them.

Yes, I'm gloating, because the working man no longer has to eat the left's shyte. ;D

The manipulated polls were, again, proven to be out to lunch.

Long live capitalism, down with communism :rofl:


----------



## George Wallace (8 Jun 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I'm going to sleep really well tonight. The tearing of hair, the rending of flesh and the smack in the face of reality for the left, is amusingly satisfying. The fact that they just moved to the bottom rung and that their voice is muted, must be like psychotic break for them.
> 
> Yes, I'm gloating, because the working man no longer has to eat the left's shyte. ;D
> 
> ...



I am both elated and depressed.  I am glad to see the Ontario Liberals, whom I have considered nothing more than corrupt to the core, and the NDP with their spending and taxing platforms defeated in the province.  I am, however, not impressed to see one of the most radical NDP candidates win in Ottawa Center, and Liberals taking two Ottawa East Ridings.  I guess my impression of the voters who were at the polling station while I was there was correct, that they were Left leaning.

I think the PCs would have had a clean sweep had it not been for people voting against Doug Ford, not for his policies, but just because they did not like Doug Ford.  Seems that there are pockets of this nation where the voters vote more on personalities, than Party Platforms.  We saw it with the "Anyone but Harper" and saw some of it with "Not Doug Ford" in this election.  I am sure that is where the NDP gained many votes in a lot of ridings.

I also had serious reservation with the polling system.  I am of the impression that it can easily be manipulated and/or corrupted/hacked.  I did not notice where the actual hard paper ballots were being put after being scanned, in case of some challenge.


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## PPCLI Guy (8 Jun 2018)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I also had serious reservation with the polling system.  I am of the impression that it can easily be manipulated and/or corrupted/hacked.  I did not notice where the actual hard paper ballots were being put after being scanned, in case of some challenge.



No part of the system was connected to the internet, and so I do not see how it could be hacked.  The ballots stayed in the scanner's hoppers once scanned in.


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## mariomike (8 Jun 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Good ol media polls.



"A poll leaked Thursday suggested Andrea Horwath’s NDP had a whopping 10-point lead over Doug Ford’s PCs in the Ontario election campaign."

The above was posted as an unsourced quote in Reply #260. A source would make it easier to discuss.

2018 Ontario general election polls,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_general_election,_2018#Opinion_polls

And votes,

Conservative: 2,322,422 

NDP: 1,925,574 

Liberal: 1,103,283



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> I think the PCs would have had a clean sweep had it not been for people voting against Doug Ford, not for his policies, but just because they did not like Doug Ford.



Perhaps they remembered the 2010-2014 Ford Nation era when he was a councillor.

Late night comics in the U.S. were mocking Doug even then,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSKJqEY5EOo

On the other hand, perhaps out of town voters were excited to be able join, for the first time, the Ford Nation movement started by his late brother Rob.

I voted Ford Nation in 2010. Against FN in 2014. For FN again in 2018. 

CP2Ford CP24 showed the family glued to the TV set in Mom's basement. 

Conspicuously absent this time, both there, and later at the Congress Centre, was Rob's widow.


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## Retired AF Guy (8 Jun 2018)

FJAG said:
			
		

> Incidentally. Did anyone else think that the new automated tabulation machines at the polls that they stuffed your ballot into looked strangely similar to a shredder?
> 
> :cheers:



Funny you should mention that!  I said the same thing to official when I handed in my vote. We both had a good laugh about it.


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## Retired AF Guy (8 Jun 2018)

Does anyone have information why voting hours were extended in several ridings due to "school lockdowns?"

Media release  here.


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## Remius (8 Jun 2018)

I went to bed before I saw confirmation of the liberals being reduced to non party status. 

The only thing that would have been a bit better would have been for Kathleen Wynne to lose her seat. 

oh well. 

Whatever we have coming can't be any worse than what we had.


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## Jarnhamar (8 Jun 2018)

Are liberals officially non-party status or did they cling on?


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## Halifax Tar (8 Jun 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Are liberals officially non-party status or did they cling on?



The Liberals lost official party status.


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## Cdn Blackshirt (8 Jun 2018)

They lost official party status.....

One of the pundits last night said that the Liberals are likely in really bad shape as he believes they took out a bunch of debt for the election and now without the higher level of funding, they'll have a heck of time paying it back.


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## Old Sweat (8 Jun 2018)

CTV is reporting non-party with seven seats. This is subject to any recounts.

Being the only Conservative in an extended family of Liberals dating back to Confederation, I am keeping my mouth shut as I wade through rivers of electronic tears.


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## Remius (8 Jun 2018)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> CTV is reporting non-party with seven seats. This is subject to any recounts.
> 
> Being the only Conservative in an extended family of Liberals dating back to Confederation, I am keeping my mouth shut as I wade through rivers of electronic tears.



You should see my facebook feed  ;D


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## mariomike (8 Jun 2018)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Being the only Conservative in an extended family of Liberals dating back to Confederation, I am keeping my mouth shut as I wade through rivers of electronic tears.



For those of us old enough to remember when every household subscribed to a newspaper, and had it delivered daily to their doorstep ( before voters began getting their information from social media ), even without a lawn sign, you could pretty much tell which party people supported.

In my neighborhood, Star subscribers tended to vote Liberal, and Telegram ( after it folded, Sun ) subscribers tended to vote Conservative.

That's a generalization on my part. But, I believe it to be true as a general rule.


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## Halifax Tar (8 Jun 2018)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> CTV is reporting non-party with seven seats. This is subject to any recounts.
> 
> Being the only Conservative in an extended family of Liberals dating back to Confederation, I am keeping my mouth shut as I wade through rivers of electronic tears.



Me too.  My Facebook feed is alight with cry's of Armageddon the apocalypse.


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## mariomike (8 Jun 2018)

First Ward 2, then Toronto, then Ontario. Canada next?

QUOTE

CBC

As Ford Nation conquers Ontario, federal parties ponder what it means for them
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ford-trudeau-austerity-election-1.4696771
It's time, Canada, to recognize the emergence of Ford Nation in the province known as Ontario.


From 2014,

"Here, a genealogical guide to Camelot North."
https://torontolife.com/city/toronto-politics/rob-ford-family-tree/
"They call themselves the Canadian Kennedys."

END QUOTE


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## Jarnhamar (8 Jun 2018)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> The Liberals lost official party status.





			
				Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> They lost official party status.....



Oh snap.


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## mariomike (8 Jun 2018)

Some discussion of the "first-past-the-post" electoral system,  

QUOTE

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/ontario-voters-express-displeasure-first-past-post-system-004642372.html
The Ontario election has prompted some residents in the province to raise concerns about the first-past-the-post electoral system  after premier-designate Doug Ford led his party to a majority mandate despite receiving approximately 40 per cent of the popular vote.

END QUOTE


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## Good2Golf (8 Jun 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Some discussion of the "first-past-the-post" electoral system,
> 
> QUOTE
> 
> ...



Indeed!  Can you imagine?  A political party given a majority mandate from the electorate despite receiving approximately 40  per cent of the popular vote?

...oh wait, does 39.5% count?


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## CountDC (8 Jun 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> Whatever we have coming can't be any worse than what we had.



Be careful on that one.  Might come back to bite you. ;D


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## mariomike (8 Jun 2018)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Indeed!  Can you imagine?  A political party given a majority mandate from the electorate despite receiving approximately 40  per cent of the popular vote?



I guess the article had something to do with this discussion,

Electoral Reform
https://army.ca/forums/threads/25692.0
42 pages.
Locked.


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## OldSolduer (8 Jun 2018)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Indeed!  Can you imagine?  A political party given a majority mandate from the electorate despite receiving approximately 40  per cent of the popular vote?
> 
> ...oh wait, does 39.5% count?



It seems that Liberals and the NDP only bring this up when they lose.


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## mariomike (8 Jun 2018)

Been a long time since I took Sex-Ed in school. But, whatever it is now, he is repealing it.

"One of the first moves, however, will be scrapping the modernized sex education curriculum opposed by social conservatives, he noted."
https://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2018/06/08/premier-elect-ford-names-transition-team.html
“We’re repealing it.”


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## Jarnhamar (8 Jun 2018)

> After winning a Liberal majority, Premier Kathleen Wynne reintroduced a very similar radical Sex Ed Curriculum from the one she developed as Education Minister, and which outraged parents back in 2010. In spite of multiple protests, student strikes, and petitions, the Ontario government disregarded the concerns of parents and began to implement the controversial curriculum in the summer of 2016. According to many reports, schools only began teaching the new curriculum during the last 2 weeks in June, after report cards were finished and when there was nothing left to grade. Effectively, 2016/2017 is the first school year in which it was implemented.
> 
> In 2010, parents and religious leaders came out angrily against Liberal plans to teach early grades about age-inappropriate topics like masturbation, anal intercourse, oral sex, vaginal lubrication, and the idea that being male or female is merely a “social construct”. So strong was the backlash that McGuinty “shelved” the curriculum after only 3 days of public outcry.


https://www.campaignlifecoalition.com/sex-ed-curriculum


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## mariomike (8 Jun 2018)

The Premier-elect's entire experience in government was in Ward 2. 

Rob Ford was the Ward 2 councillor prior to Doug. 

Nephew Michael Ford became the Ward 2 councillor after Doug.

Other than his late brother Rob, Ward 23 Councillor Filion likely knew Doug Ford about as well as anyone at City Hall.

Councillor Filion offered these ten points,

QUOTE

1. Doug Ford will move very quickly. Doug is an action figure who'll want to demonstrate that there’s a new alpha male running Ontario. No time – and no need - for careful analysis before acting.

 2. Doug Ford will be persistently combative. Doug is a brawler who won the fight. The other side can try to swing back – and he'll be delighted if they do, so he has a reason to flatten them again.

 3. Doug Ford will be deliberately divisive: he’ll want to keep his supporters cheering and the other side booing. That’s all part of the show.

 4. For Doug Ford, politics is a continuous battle. The next campaign will start the first day in office.

 5. Doug Ford wants attention. If things get too quiet or are going too smoothly, he’ll create controversy so that the media will be forced to pay attention.

 6. Expect Doug Ford's Trump-like attacks on mainstream media. He'll use friendly media, his own media, and rallies “for the people.” The Star, Globe and CBC will be characterized as elite establishment who will do anything to stop him from helping people.

 7. Doug Ford will totally control the PC party, demanding total loyalty. Any PCs who don't follow him anywhere he wants to go will be sidelined.

 8. Doug Ford will expect a partisan bureaucracy, likely causing a big turnover in its ranks. If bureaucrats attempt to provide independent advice that contradicts what he wants, they will be replaced.

 9. Expect outrageous statements by Doug Ford. Also ethical lapses by him and other Conservative MPPs who will be so partisan in their approach that they'll see helping political and personal friends as part of the normal role of government.

 10. Expect from Doug Ford a Trump-like propensity for untruths, the distortion of reality and extreme exaggeration – especially when describing his accomplishments and public support for his actions.
https://www.toronto.ca/city-government/council/members-of-council/councillor-john-filion/

END QUOTE


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## jollyjacktar (8 Jun 2018)

I think Ontario will be better off with Ford than they'd be with Horvath and her party in power.


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## larry Strong (8 Jun 2018)

Outstanding results....one down....two more to go next year...... Woot Woot  :cheers:

Larry


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## jollyjacktar (8 Jun 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> How many politicians have had to write a formal apology to the Chief of Police?
> https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2014/08/14/police_chief_bill_blair_to_address_media_today.html



Not him.  Singh the lesser.


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## garb811 (8 Jun 2018)

This thread has required too many interventions by the DS due to violations of the rules that Mike laid down with regard to political discourse.

If you are unsure as to what they are, please take a moment and reacquaint yourself:  How to engage in political discourse on Army.ca

- Staff


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## dapaterson (9 Jun 2018)

In Ontario, there's a riding of under 70K voters, and another with over 170K.

Oh, democracy...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6mJw50OdZ4


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## kratz (9 Jun 2018)

With the conclusion of the election, this topic has run it's course.

After action comments related to the election are open until June 14th, before this topic is locked.

*Milnet Staff*


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## FJAG (9 Jun 2018)

A good article of 20/20 hindsight by MacLeans as to "How Doug Ford did it."

https://www.macleans.ca/politics/how-doug-ford-did-it/

 :cheers:


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## Altair (10 Jun 2018)

So, Doug Ford said all the right things, and ticked off many of his fans for not bashing Justin. Crazy comments on this tweet.


@fordnation

We will stand shoulder to shoulder with the Prime Minister and the people of Canada. My number one goal is to protect jobs in Ontario, starting with my unwavering support for our steel and aluminum workers.


Here's a sample response

Replying to @fordnation
Shit, how do I retract my vote?! I voted PC to get away from all the Liberal mindsets altogether. Now you're buddying up with he who is rapidly destroying the Canada I love.


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## Fishbone Jones (10 Jun 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> Here's a sample response
> 
> Replying to @fordnation
> Shit, how do I retract my vote?! I voted PC to get away from all the Liberal mindsets altogether. Now you're buddying up with he who is rapidly destroying the Canada I love.



 I hear lots of grits that say the same about Trudeau. Chattering classes. No consequence.


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## mariomike (10 Jun 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> @fordnation
> 
> We will stand shoulder to shoulder with the Prime Minister and the people of Canada. My number one goal is to protect jobs in Ontario, starting with my unwavering support for our steel and aluminum workers.



Doug Ford also declared his "unwavering" support for Donald Trump.
http://toronto.citynews.ca/video/2016/10/13/video-doug-ford-says-his-support-of-donald-trump-is-unwavering/

To understand the roots of Ford Nation, it might help to understand Ward 2. ( For those unfamiliar with the ward. )

There are 47 wards in the city. 

Rob was the Ward 2 councillor from 2000-10, Doug from 2010-14, nephew Michael Ford from 2014 - present. 

Until last week, Doug never held elected office beyond the confines of Ward 2. 

You can also read their book, "Ford Nation: two brothers, one vision".

Then get out to a Ford Fest or FN rally. Enjoy the People’s Festival!

There was a Ford Fest in 3D on Youtube, but it was removed.

However, this will give you a taste of an indoor FN rally.
https://vimeo.com/110365134

The pic is from an outdoor Ford Fest.


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## Altair (11 Jun 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I hear lots of grits that say the same about Trudeau. Chattering classes. No consequence.


I actually question how many of those are russian bots.


----------



## mariomike (11 Jun 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> I actually question how many of those are russian bots.



For reference to the discussion,

QUOTE

WASHINGTON—The same Russian online troll farm that meddled in the American presidential election has also taken swipes at Canadian targets, including oil infrastructure and Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2018/03/18/notorious-russian-troll-farm-targeted-trudeau-canadian-oil-in-online-campaigns.html

With inhuman frequency, army of bots shares news about Doug Ford on Twitter and Facebook
https://www.nationalobserver.com/2018/06/06/news/inhuman-frequency-army-bots-shares-news-about-doug-ford-twitter-and-facebook

END QUOTE


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## pbi (12 Jun 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> ...Here's a sample response
> 
> Replying to @fordnation
> crap, how do I retract my vote?! I voted PC to get away from all the Liberal mindsets altogether. Now you're buddying up with he who is rapidly destroying the Canada I love.



IMHO Canadians need to put down their party politics and realize that we are all in this together. Even the Trump-lovers among us might want to remember what country they belong to (if only for a minute...). Trump and his base really couldn't care less about Canada, nor about any other weird foreigners. No votes to be had there!

We are now learning the hard way that countries (especially big powerful countries) don't have friends-they have interests.  And, almost always, those interests are beholden to domestic politics. Like Truman once said: "_Foreign policy is domestic politics with its hat on_"  Trump has that tattooed over his heart.

While I don't put a lot of stock in the PM, I do have great faith in our Foreign Minister: I think she is every bit as tough as anybody on Trump's gang. I want her and the team to succeed: the alternative will be bad for us all.

Maybe Doug Ford, as a businessman with interests in the US, realizes something that some of his base don't seem to understand: Ontario depends on open access to US markets. US protectionism (a dragon that never really dies: it just dozes for a few years) is very bad for Ontario. 

Ford got into office as a representative of The Common Man: many of those common men (and women) may have no jobs if the US doesn't start acting like a mature and reasonable trading partner and not a petulant, unpredictable adversary. Since provinces don't negotiate national trade deals like NAFTA, Ford really has little choice but to support the Govt.

And, don't forget that the Canadian trade team is not just a Liberal effort: it's also closely advised by Tories like Rona Ambrose and Brian Mulroney.


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