# Where are the new jump bags?



## Armymedic (5 Feb 2007)

Now that we have the role 1 vs role 3 medics pissing match done:

How about we go onto the reason why Medical services does not expidite a proper medical bag for dismounted or veh mounted intimate support medics?

The only "ïssued"' bag is still the antiquated airborne medical pouch which is still without proper adjustable straps...definately not easy to get on over ballistic and tac vests.

The ones most medics use are purchased off the shelf and for in country use only. 

That should be a bigger issue.


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## xo31@711ret (5 Feb 2007)

Crissakes, I thought we finally got new bags. On my 6A's at the school (2000) they had numerous med bags and asked various courses throughout the school at the time what the opinions were. We were then suppose to get 'em in a couple of years  :. Never seen them when I left last june, but then again I was a recruiting centre doing medicals last 4 years; don't remember seeing 'em around gagetown either....


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## Gunner98 (5 Feb 2007)

St. Mike's 

I think the challenge will continue be to select just one for all tasks.  1 Cdn Fd Hosp is in the process of purchasing one for each Med Tech/PA in the unit with contents to be tailored to task.


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## Armymedic (5 Feb 2007)

And your unit is purchasing them off the shelf, correct?

Let me guess...Blackhawk Special Operations bags or STOMP bags?

psst-just between you and I, there are better ones out there.


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## old medic (5 Feb 2007)

9th CTI-DND Conference & Military Textiles and Personal Equipment Trade Show
Thursday, April 20, 2006
Army Presentations: Army Current Product Improvements
http://www.textiles.ca/_static/webUpload/193/143_1.pdf


Specifically page six and seven for section level TCCC pouches and self aid pouches.
No mention of full size jump bags.


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## Gunner98 (5 Feb 2007)

St. Micheals Medical Team said:
			
		

> And your unit is purchasing them off the shelf, correct? Let me guess...Blackhawk Special Operations bags or STOMP bags? psst-just between you and I, there are better ones out there.



Between you and me, all users at our end and our pers abroad are quite satisfied with having their own Blackhawk bags, thanks.


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## Armymedic (5 Feb 2007)

Gunner98 said:
			
		

> Between you and me, all users at our end and our pers abroad are quite satisfied with having their own Blackhawk bags, thanks.


I used to be quite happy with my STOMP as well.

What do they say...ingnorance is bliss.

But thats is taking away from my original point of the question. 1 CFH, as well as 1 and 2 Fd Amb, has gone out of its way to find a suitable bag for thier medics in a light/veh mounted role. CF H Svc Gp spends millions on health care for the CF, and I don't know how may hundred of thousands of dollars in improving the KAF MMU. 

How about CFMG spend a couple thousand and equip thier medics in the shit in Afghanistan properly?


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## old medic (5 Feb 2007)

I split this off so we can concentrate on the jumpbag subject with it's own thread.


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## Donut (5 Feb 2007)

I'm not sure there is a "Best Bag" out there, as there is so much variation in the tasks, duration, terrain, pers kit, water, ammo, etc. which ultimately needs to dictate what you carry.  

I THINK modular task specific organization is the way to go, so you have to take out of the bag only  what you need, and there's nothing that has to be stuffed back in before you move.  Then perhaps give the troops a variety of models to choose from, (as per several suggestion in the various tac-vest threads) to fill with what modules they need for their mission.

I've looked at the STOMP, liked it, but it didn't stand out as "the solution", either.  In fact, no one bag has struck me as "the solution".

My 2 cents

DF


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## riggermade (5 Feb 2007)

I'd have to agree with PMT.  I modified many a jump bag when I was with 3 RCR and normally to the users specifations, what is ideal for one person doesn't work for the next.  A good det of shoulder pads was the big thing and some mods could be done inside depending on what the individual carryed


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## old medic (5 Feb 2007)

I wonder whatever happened too....   (Just to keep the discussion going):

http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/news_pubs/engraph/CFHS_Bulletin_Mar02_e.asp



> New Medical Bag on the Horizon
> 
> Infantry medics in the CF could be using the new medical bag as early as next year. The Med bag is currently undergoing testing and evaluation and is expected to be released at the same time as the new small pack system for the Land Force. In line with the Clothe the Soldier project, these new medical bags have been designed to integrate into the small pack system that will be provided to all Land Force soldiers.
> 
> ...


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## medicineman (5 Feb 2007)

I see where SMMT is coming from.  The STOMPII in and of itself is a great kit - problem is it's huge and therefore be prone to overloading and it is a de facto rucksack all on it's own.  It's great if you're mounted, but if you're on a long hump over hill and over dale for a number of days, you have to make a decision about what medical gear goes out and personal kit goes in, because the issue ruck is almost as big as this thing is AND is totally incompatible with it.

As a minor aside, it kind of strikes to me like another UNMO kit - a bit of an over reaction without properly thinking things through and actually doing some proper user trials under a variety of conditions.

My two pennies worth.

MM


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## medaid (5 Feb 2007)

wow that little link to the bulletins... that bag looks exactly like a Small pack system, and honestly that would make it a POS... in my honest honest honest opinion.


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## Gunner98 (5 Feb 2007)

old medic said:
			
		

> I wonder whatever happened too....   (Just to keep the discussion going): http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/news_pubs/engraph/CFHS_Bulletin_Mar02_e.asp



What happened was the bullets started flying in theatre, ballistic plates and real trauma became common in the deployed Med Techs daily routine.  As has been indicated no one bag fits the needs, trials continue, opinions vary and so the wait has been prolonged.


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## old medic (5 Feb 2007)

True enough. Still, it is difficult to reconcile that with 57 years of no adequate bag (or bags).


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## bisonmedic (5 Feb 2007)

Actually, we do have new jump bags in theater now. It started out as a trial, but we now have enough of them to supply the medics out in the sandbox. The SO Tech bag is a tan modular bag that can be utilized depending on the mission requirements. It has the ability to hold some pers kit as well as your medical equipment. We also got to use another type, but it was like the Blackhawk bag only way bigger, not good for those on foot for long periods. Previous tours to Afghanistan had trialed a bag and was steps beyond the old green monster, but I think someone in Ottawa had to make too many changes to it to be usefull to us. Something with a better harness system that can be adjustable depending on the medics size and equipment worn ( width/height ). Because as it was stated, it is a pain in the butt trying to wear the bag with all the PP/E we have, it takes a toll on the body.


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## Armymedic (5 Feb 2007)

This SO Tech bag...it is the one with the two pockets on its face?

I am trying to find a pic to upload.


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## Donut (7 Feb 2007)

Is this the one:


http://www.sotechmed.com/sm/medpdf/SOTechMedicalDoc.pdf

pp 18-19?

I can't cut the pic from the catalogue for some reason.

DF


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## bisonmedic (7 Feb 2007)

Yes that's the bag we have right now. It's not bad, but the stitching needs to be improved because we are finding that the shoulder straps are coming apart from the bag itself. It is way more user friendly than the old jump bag, but like anything new and improved, people still have their own idea of what a bag should be. I prefer the bag that roto 0 guys were using, velcro inside the bag meant you could use the mini pouches as issued or anyway you wanted. It has good adjustability overall even with body armor and other kit, it compacts well with the straps supplied, and it takes the abuse from mother nature and medics well.


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## Donut (8 Feb 2007)

Did you get them complete with inserts, or just the outer bags?

Inquiring minds want to know...

DF


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## bisonmedic (8 Feb 2007)

The jump bags came with all the inserts and such, not a bad purchase for once. It has a fanny pack and a valice/compression sack as well. For our patrol medics who go out for extended patrols and such, you can leave the small pack at the camp and have everything you need attached to one bag without it being bulky. Like I said, it does need some minor work but it does a fairly good job for us out and about.


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## Donut (5 Apr 2007)

Bump.

Any updates?  Contracts on MERX?  More feedback on the bags?

I was recently given a TT FR Pouch, which seems a great way to organize 1-2 Pt worth of TCCC IA kit, but I can't find a reasonable way to attach it to my MoFOCR that will allow me to both work out of it, and employ pers wpns effectively.  It's a great bag for a "grab it, get out, get the pt, get back" TCCC-type scenario, but beyond that, I think I'll be needing something that I'm able to carry on vest, pouch-in-a-pouch type set up, with roughly the same contents.

DF

Edit to add:

As well, with all the Tac Vest POS threads, and the direction that our troops "just aren't using it right...they need to carry the small pack to have enough ammo" where the #$^k does that leave our medics, with a jump bag on their backs, a TV with four mags, and a shootin' role in the Platoons?


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## medicineman (5 Apr 2007)

ParaMedTech said:
			
		

> As well, with all the Tac Vest POS threads, and the direction that our troops "just aren't using it right...they need to carry the small pack to have enough ammo" where the #$^k does that leave our medics, with a jump bag on their backs, a TV with four mags, and a shootin' role in the Platoons?



Something comes to mind about sewage, creeks, and canoes but no paddle perhaps?  Or needing a bandolier pouch added to the jumpbag (on top of everything else).

MM


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## Donut (5 Apr 2007)

:rofl:

Maybe that will convince the RSM that I really NEED my after market vest?


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## medicineman (5 Apr 2007)

I actually bought a patrol pack awhile ago from Wheeler's - some of the accoutrements I got for it included a double pouch rig designed for C-7 Mags - 3 per side - that could velco onto the MOLLE slats - you could do the same with a  small pack I suppose.  I actually used them for my IA stuff - shell dressings, TK's and airways before I bought my TCCC leg pouch and had other stuff inside the pack like my IV's, suture kits, general dressing supplies and snivel drugs.  Something similar would solve part the issue of where to put extra mags if you use the issued TV and small pack system (if you were using the smallpack as your med bag as well).

Just a small thought for what it's worth.

MM


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## Farmboy (5 Apr 2007)

This is a pouch that will fit the bill for all medics.








    http://www.oneshottactical.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=oneshot&Product_Code=MP-CTMP&Category_Code=MP-medical




> CTOMS’ Combat Trauma Management Pouch is a revolutionary new approach to casualty management solutions for the Tactical Care Provider. This pouch was designed using a realistic and logical approach to the principals of Tactical Combat Casualty Care and is designed to efficiently store critical equipment in an organized manner.



  This pouch is amazing for medics!!   CTOMS also have an IFAK pouch and a Medic bag on the way with the same M.A.R.S. TM internal system.

 Both the CTMP and IFAK pouch are MOLLE compatible.

 Nothing else on the market even comes close.


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## Donut (5 Apr 2007)

Farmboy said:
			
		

> This is a pouch that will fit the bill for all medics.



No such animal, but I appreciate the thought.


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## Farmboy (5 Apr 2007)

Wow, that was quick to write it off.


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## Donut (5 Apr 2007)

What I "wrote off" was the concept that one pouch would "fit the bill for all medics", not that actual pouch.  If you put 3 health care proffesionals in a room, you'll get 5 opinions on kit and equipment and techniques.  We can't agree on simple stuff that's been around for a couple of decades (such as treatmtnt  of hypotention, the golden hour, etc) , much less an emerging field like TCCC.


I've looked at it before in one of the other threads that you've posted that in.  It looks good, but I'm very hesitant to buy something so critical without being able to hold it, touch it, examine the construction, look at the inside, load it up, wear it around.  

That's it, that's all.

DF


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## Farmboy (5 Apr 2007)

Usually what is argued about is internal layout and what to put in it, correct?

 The internal MARS system allows the user to configure the inside of the pouch how he/she wants it.  It will allow for countless layouts of equipment.  It will hold the stuff you want it to hold, where you want it held.

 It allows very quick access to tourniquets and gloves.

 It's also about to be issued only to the medics heading overseas.

 Anyone is welcome to drop by and take a look at them here.

But back on topic - The pack will have the same internal MARS system to allow the user to put anything anywhere


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## Donut (5 Apr 2007)

Farmboy said:
			
		

> Usually what is argued about is internal layout and what to put in it, correct?



Correct.  That and quantity of items to be carried.



			
				Farmboy said:
			
		

> It's also about to be issued only to the medics heading overseas.



For a drop leg?  I don't see it going anywhere on the TV, so that leaves me with a CTS Mag pouch drop leg on one leg, this pouch on the other, and a holster on my 3rd leg?  ;D  I guess it means it's available to both hands equally!

Or is it being supplied with the "big honking leg panel"?


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## riggermade (5 Apr 2007)

I wasn't going to way in on this one but hard to keep myself shut up.

Here in Petawawa the dropleg pouch was being bought for those pers who took the TCCC course, a good pouch for the basic soldier with the course to do immediate first aid.

In no way is a drop leg ever going to be suitable for a medic in my opinion, there is just not the room to carry as much as most medics want

Paramedtech I agree with your statement about not everybody will be happy, after years of modifying jump bags in every different configuration you can think of it is up to the individual

I am by no means an expert on med bags but have had the experience of makinfg or modifying many


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## Farmboy (5 Apr 2007)

This pouch I have shown will work on a drop leg or a vest or anywhere else there is MOLLE. It does have a DL panel that will fit a modular holster as well.

I have seen the TCCC pouch you're speaking of and again it doesn't even come close to this one for quality or effectiveness.

Riggermade

 You have just said that you have modified your bag in every different configuration.

This internal system will do that already for you.


ParaMT

 The problem is, if you want something specific for the TV, well you're going to be waiting on DLR, cause every other Mfg makes their gear for MOLLE/PALS.  If you want something for a D/L or your MOLLE vest then you'll have no problem with this.



 I would show a pic of the inside to show how effective it is but with all the knock offs that happen...........


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## Armymedic (6 Apr 2007)

As for any pouch or bag fitting the bill for all medics....I think that is a DLR line of thought (dig, dig). And I agree with PMT that no one bag is good for everyone.

Not to say that Farmboy's pouch isn't good...it is actually one of the better pouches I have seen.

Drop legs are just wrong for people who need to wear them 23 hrs a day, you need to put it on your belt or body.

BTW PMT, if you have a sit where as a medic, you actually need to shoot 9 of the 10 mags you are carrying, it will be a bad day for whomever it is your supporting, or you are in the wrong friggin spot.


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## Donut (6 Apr 2007)

St. Micheals Medical Team said:
			
		

> BTW PMT, if you have a sit where as a medic, you actually need to shoot 9 of the 10 mags you are carrying, it will be a bad day for whomever it is your supporting, or you are in the wrong friggin spot.



+1 SMMT, but I'm tryin' to think ahead.  I don't think we always get to choose our spots, or what kind of day it'll be.


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## HItorMiss (6 Apr 2007)

ParaMedTech said:
			
		

> +1 SMMT, but I'm tryin' to think ahead.  I don't think we always get to choose our spots, or what kind of day it'll be.



Worst day we saw and I know more then a few who can back me up on this as being a pretty bad day, our company medic never fired a round. He had someone with him who did the shooting. Not sure about the Platoon medics only one I can think of might have had to shoot that day. 

As for the medical stuff well that all is your bag I wont even dream of wading into it


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## Donut (22 Aug 2007)

To bump this up a bit, Roto 5 TFA Roll 1 medics got their SO Tech Jump bags today, see my post well above for a link to the website.

They seem alright, all I've done is watch the troops kit theirs out and snapped a few pics with my phone, more to follow.


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## Armymedic (23 Aug 2007)

No molle on the outside of the bag itself? The really good bag from SO Tech is molle'd up all over the outside and inside. I love the expansion panel at the bottom for extra gear.

As far as a bag itself goes, it got a good design, and the extra pouches which attach isdine are not bad.

One thing they all must be wary of is filling up every avail spot.


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## Donut (23 Aug 2007)

You're right, no Molle on the outside, and I've had a couple of conversations with troops about over-packing.

The OMLT guys are still with us, including several from 1-06, and passing on lots of their experience to the next generation of dismounts.


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## Donut (31 Aug 2007)

A follow up to the previous pics:

There is PALS/MOLLE on the sides of the packs, but not the outer face.  Given the "depth" of the things, I'm not so sure that's a bad idea.


The top pic shows the SOTech, the bottom shows both side by side.


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## Keltic (12 Sep 2007)

I see a lot of kit (read: for a dismounted medic) that needs to be streamlined..that c collar, bandaids? seriously CMED Packed? :blotto:


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## Armymedic (12 Sep 2007)

HumanParadigm said:
			
		

> I see a lot of kit (read: for a dismounted medic) that needs to be streamlined..that c collar, bandaids? seriously CMED Packed? :blotto:



Hey, Punisher wannabe....just cause they give it to you does not mean you have to pack it in your gear.

As for the c-collar, I have never seen any role 1 medic without some sort of veh nearby, esp during tng. And being in a MVA esp while wearing brain bucket, is an indication of using it. I still would not have it in my bag, but with my gear in the veh. But if you want to talk about kit vs weight, lets talk about carrying 2L of IVs when there is Pentaspan and HSD, and why on earth anyone wants to carry a collapsible Adult/pediatric femoral traction splint.


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## Armymedic (12 Sep 2007)

PMT,
I would advise that whosever bag you pictured, take his scissors and keeper off the bag and attach it to thier tac vest or belt. The keeper line is not all that long and the scissors is the first thing they'll need of thier own body once they let go of thier weapon.


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## Matt_Fisher (11 Oct 2007)

We've got a new medic jump bag which I'll be bringing up to Petawawa next week for anybody interested to have a look at.  It's designed to be carried 3 ways:
1.  Stand-alone medical backpack.
2.  Attached to the exterior of the CTS Small Pack via the daisy chain webbing.
3.  Carried internally via the CTS Small Pack.

We based the design on the Camelbak BFM medbak insert, but have changed it into a stand-alone backpack.  It's not going to work for everybody, but it does address some issues of size/overloading that have been discussed with the Blackhawk STOMP bag, as well as the issues of medics not having enough room to carry pers. items due to the mission specificness of most medical backpacks; when used with the smallpack, you still have room for your other stuff.


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## Armymedic (11 Oct 2007)

I'll try to drop by the Legion and see what you got going on.


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## medicineman (11 Oct 2007)

Matt,

Do you have any pics per chance?

MM


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## Armymedic (17 Oct 2007)

I got eyes on Matts Med bag design.

First look..with a few "improvements" it will do more than jut fine. As he said, it is not designed to replace all med bags for all medical people. But no experienced medic will tell you that one bag is perfect for all jobs.

I definately will use it.

I'll leave it to Matt to throw up the pics.


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## MPSHIELD (9 Dec 2008)

Was browsing the internet and found this. I did a search on the forum and found that no one has posted this info. I understand this thread is old but rather then starting a new one, i figure this is the best bet.

I think some medics might be interested if they have not seen this.

http://pubs.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/inbasket/cmarrao.050616_0730.CR%202005-187.pdf

Enjoy


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