# Training in Calling for Fire Support



## Haligonian (7 Dec 2008)

What are some of the ways to train calling for fire?  I have heard that this is a skill that should be known at all ranks so I would like to know all the different sorts of ways to achieve this.  Thanks.


----------



## Fusaki (7 Dec 2008)

There's no lesson plan for this on the DIN?

Everything you need should be right there, and I'm 99% sure this is covered on a gunner's QL3.  Army.ca is a good place to get insight from guys who've actually used the drills or modified them to kill Taliban, but you shouldn't be worrying about that untill you've mastered the skill as taught by the PAM.  Learn from the ground up. Thats my .02.

And uhhh... you're not using your service number as a screen name, are you? Your SN is NOT public information.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (7 Dec 2008)

You mean this?

INDIRECT FIRE SUPPORT REQUEST

a. FIRE MISSION  (Warning order)
b. Target grid
c. Direction (bearing in mils)
d. Method of engagement


----------



## Fusaki (7 Dec 2008)

TGT description is in there too.

I remember it as 5 point's I've got to hit:

FIRE MISSION
Grid
Bearing
Description
Method of engagement

I know that as long as I get those 5 points out there the gunners will have enough to work with. If need be, they'll ask for my RNG to TGT if they want to be sure I'm not danger close.  

Corrections can be tricky. I'm not a FOO and I probably won't have mil scale binos with me and I don't know the "mils to distance" formula off the top of my head anyways.  But what I can do is wing it by imagining football fields and being bold with the corrections.

I think if you can remember the above, your average combat arms guy should be good to go.


----------



## Michael OLeary (7 Dec 2008)

There's plenty of open-source information on the basic call for fire - such as 061-283-6003 (SL2) - Adjust Indirect Fire

The process will be taught before you need it, and checklists should be provided to ensure you know the sequence.  To best prepare, it might be better at this point to focus on the fundamentals:

Map using
 - identifying your own location
 - identifying a distance location with similar accuracy (e.g., a target)

Determining Direction
 - from you to a given point (e.g., a target)
 - by use of a compass
 - by use of the map

Judging Distance
 - from your location to a distance location (e.g., a target)
 - between two distant locations, roughly in line with one another  (e.g., the range between an adjusting round and the a target)

Math
 - the WORM rule (which is used to calculate the correction left or right to bring the adjusting fire onto the observer-target line)

These elements are where many people first attempting to adjust fire in practice, whether on a live range or simulation, tend to fail.  The basic proforma for the call for fire isn't challenging, but the underlying skills to provide accurate data rapidly can be for some.


----------



## Cleared Hot (7 Dec 2008)

The Supported Arms Call For Fire has 5 Parts - but I have also included Direction because most people think it's required and most checklists include it not to mention you will probably be asked for it anyway.

Warning Order (Fire Mission)
Location of Target  (Target Grid, Target Number, Reference Point, Direction and Distance from your own loc, or Direction and Distance from a known point)
Direction (either from you to target or some other "arbitrary direction)  * This is not technically required until/unless you are going to adjust the rounds, but most CPs will incorrectly ask you for it anyway.
Target Description (Target Type - what it is, Size, Activity, Degree of Protection)
Effect Desired  (What you want done i.e. screen, destroy, neutralize)
Timing and Duration of Fire  (eg. suppress for 10 min in 5 min or Destroy ASAP).

As has been mentioned, you will be taught this properly prior to being placed in a situation where you will need it.  Please don't rely on what you read on MILNET.CA to get you out of a tight spot on a two-way range.  That being said, when you request this you will have someone on the other end of the radio who will know what they are doing and will be able to walk you through it if you forget/lose your checklist.

-CH


----------



## George Wallace (7 Dec 2008)

Just go to your Unit and get the standard Voice Procedures for REPORTS and RETURNS, and you will be OK.  A copy of ACP 125 may be of some help.  

If you do that then you will be able to cover all the other IMPORTANT procedures that you and your troops will have to know; such as CONTACT REPORTS, SITREPs, LOCSTATs, ADREPs, INTREPs, VEHCASREPs, VEH RECOVERY REQUESTs, FIRE MISSIONS, etc.


----------



## aesop081 (7 Dec 2008)

The OP is in second language training...i doubt he will need to worry about this for some time. I also doubt that his unit ( CFLS) will have that info on hand.


----------



## rampage800 (7 Dec 2008)

If your heading overseas, your right, this is a skill your going to want to know, cold. Cleared Hot has it the AACFF down pretty good, IMO just worry about giving a Gr though for tgt loc, dir and dist will work too but for that you'll have to send your own loc first so keep that in mind. The other stuff is more relevant to trained observers and in a TIC you don't want to be guessing tgt #s. For adjusting if you get stuck just use cardinal directions and distances of where you want the round to go, ie East 200 North 50 its a little easier and most guys don't carry scribed optics on ptl anyhow and it'll save you from doing the math in your head.

 All that being said, theres shortcuts to everything, your best bet is to get in the IFT,lots, and if its all going bad, speak in plain English to your FOO/FEDC/JTAC and he'll (she) will get you what you want.


----------



## George Wallace (7 Dec 2008)

Re: Training Calling for fires

Hope no one minds that I have changed the Title.  I don't think anyone really wants to be calling 911 or the Fire Dept here.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (7 Dec 2008)

FSOP/FP001

FIRE MISSION CALL FOR FIRE (FM.CFF)

	FM.CFF	
A.	MAP DETAILS	
	MAP/CHART SERIES	
	MAP/CHART SUFFIX NO.	
	MAP/CHART SHEET NO.	
	MAP/CHART EDITION NO.	
	GEODETIC DATUM	
B.	TARGET NO.	
C.	NUMBER OF FIRE UNITS TO FIRE FOR EFFECT	
D.	TARGET LOCATION	
D.1.	UTM EASTING	
D.2.	UTM NORTHING	
D.3.	ALTITUDE	
E.	TARGET GRID ZONE	
F.	TARGET DESCRIPTION	
F.1.	TARGET TYPE	
F.2.	TARGET SUBTYPE	
F.3.	DEGREE OF PROTECTION	
G.	TARGET STRENGTH	
H.	TARGET SIZE	
H.1.	LENGTH	
H.2.	WIDTH	
H.3.	ATTITUDE	
I.	REPORT VALUE ACCURACY OF THE TARGET LOCATION 	
J.	TRAJECTORY TYPE FROM:
HIGH-HIGH ANGLE
LOW-LOW ANGLE 	
K.	MUNITIONS IF EFFECT	
K.1.	# OF VOLLEY/ROCKETS	
K.2.	FIRE FOR EFFECT PROJECTILE	
K.3.	FIRE FOR EFFECT FUZE	
L.	EFFECTS REQUIRED	
M.	METHOD OF CONTROL	
M.1.	METHOD	
M.2.	TOT OR TIME TO FIRE	
N.	FIRING INTERVAL	
N.1.	INTERVAL	
N.2.	DURATION	
O. 	END OF MISSION


----------



## Michael OLeary (7 Dec 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> FSOP/FP001
> 
> FIRE MISSION CALL FOR FIRE (FM.CFF)



Way too much information for someone who is only starting to think about learning a basic call for fire.


----------



## 241 (7 Dec 2008)

Michael O`Leary said:
			
		

> Way too much information for someone who is only starting to think about learning a basic call for fire.



That is way more information then I every sent up in my 5 years in the OP as a FOO tech or sig...


----------



## Nfld Sapper (7 Dec 2008)

That info is straight from USOP (VOL 1) 1999-04-01


----------



## rampage800 (7 Dec 2008)

NFLD Sapper

Although I applaud your ability to bring something like that up I think thats a little too complicated for calling in fire. I don't even think thats Canadian to be quite truthful the trained Cdn Observers is :
*Obs ID
Wng Ord
Tgt Loc*
Direction
*Description*
Traj 
Type of Engagement
Ammo
Distribution of Fire
At My Comd
*Method of Eng*

The avg AACFF needs only a few of those (see Cleared Hots Post) and even the observers only need to give 5 of the 11 listed. Its by no means hard, it just requires some practice.

Just trying to help out and keep it simple


----------



## George Wallace (7 Dec 2008)

The most I have ever had to worry about is the:

WARNING ORDER:      FIRE MISSION WAIT OUT

Actual FIRE MISSION:

FIRE MISSION

GRID   123 456
DIRECTION 6400

EN PLATOON DUG IN ON FORWARD SLOPE     150 X 50

NEUTRALIZE IN 15 FOR 5.

(AT MY COMMAND)

ADJUST FIRE

CORRECTIONS:    LEFT or RIGHT; ADD or DROP (Until a bracket has been achieved and/or within 50 to 100 m.)

FIRE FOR EFFECT

END OF MISSION
TGT NEUTRALIZED etc.
GOOD SHOOTING

OUT 

Nothing too hard about it.  Now if some anal Gunner asks for air temperature, wind speed or whatever at your loc and the tgt loc, just ask him/her to send up a MET Tech and you will continue.   >


----------



## 241 (7 Dec 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> That info is straight from USOP (VOL 1) 1999-04-01



Well as I have never even seen that book, I don't know what country it comes from, but can tell you that in the five years I was on the hill calling in fire we *never* sent that much info ever. Not even on the FOO Tech course did they have us send that much. That could be some info that the FSCC (Fire Suppot Coordination Center) has to log, I am not sure as I haven't ever worked in the FSCC.


----------



## aesop081 (7 Dec 2008)

241 said:
			
		

> I don't know what country it comes from,



Its Canadian


----------



## Nfld Sapper (7 Dec 2008)

241 said:
			
		

> Well as I have never even seen that book, I don't know what country it comes from, but can tell you that in the five years I was on the hill calling in fire we *never* sent that much info ever. Not even on the FOO Tech course did they have us send that much. That could be some info that the FSCC (Fire Suppot Coordination Center) has to log, I am not sure as I haven't ever worked in the FSCC.



B-GL-334-001/FP-001 STANDING OPERATING PROCEDURES FOR LAND OPERATIONS Supersedes B-GL-332-001/FP-001 [Vol 1 and 2] dated 1999-04-01 and B-GL-333-001/FP-001 dated 1999-03-16

And from I listed is the NATO Standard as listed in 334.


----------



## Haligonian (7 Dec 2008)

For everyone who has given me some constructive info, thankyou.  Perhaps I should be a bit more clear however.  I am curious as to what are the methods that we use to train this skill?  We have the simulators, we have live fire ranges.  Is there any other ways?

In my trades training I was on a simulator for about 2 hours and then during attacks we called in fire missions, which of course, were notional and really just put you through the motions of calling in a fire mission over the means.


----------



## 241 (7 Dec 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> B-GL-334-001/FP-001 STANDING OPERATING PROCEDURES FOR LAND OPERATIONS Supersedes B-GL-332-001/FP-001 [Vol 1 and 2] dated 1999-04-01 and B-GL-333-001/FP-001 dated 1999-03-16
> 
> And from I listed is the NATO Standard as listed in 334.





			
				CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Its Canadian



Well OK then, still wasn't taught to nor ever sent that much information.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (7 Dec 2008)

Again just for info I am posting the current edition version of a Fire Mission.

SOP 704.07—FIRE MISSION CALL FOR FIRE (FM.CFF) (NATO)
1. Purpose. Used to transmit initial fire for effect request for fire and/or orders to fire.
FIRE MISSION CALL FOR FIRE (FM.CFF) (NATO)
A
1
2
3
4
5
Map details: (Note 1)
Map/chart series
Map/chart suffix no
Map/chart sheet no (Note 2)
Map/chart edition No (Note 2)
Geodetic datum (Note 2)
B Target no
C Number of fire units to fire for effect
D
1
2
3
Target location:
UTM easting (in metres)
UTM northing (in metres)
Altitude (in metres)
E Target grid zone
F
1
Target description:
Target type (Note 3)
SOP 704-13
FIRE MISSION CALL FOR FIRE (FM.CFF) (NATO)
2
3
Target subtype (Note 3)
Degree of protection (Note 4)
G Target strength
H
1
2
3
Target size:
Length or radius (in metres)
Width (in metres)
Attitude—azimuth of the longest axis (in mils)
I Report value accuracy of the target location (in
metres)
J Trajectory type from: HIGH—high angle; LOW—
low angle
K
1
2
3
Munitions in effect: (Note 5)
Number of volleys/rockets
Fire for effect projectile (Note 6)
Fire for effect fuze (Note 6)
L Effects required (as %)
M
1
2
Method of control:
Method (Note 7)
Time on target or time to fire
N
1
2
Firing interval:
Interval (in seconds)
Duration (in minutes)
O End of mission (Note 8)
Figure 61: Fire Mission Call for Fire (NATO)
NOTES:
1. Use of this ser is optional.
2. Repeat as nec.
3. Selected from: _omitted list is long_
4. Selected from:  _omitted list is long_
5. The Munitions in Effect ser (set) may be repeated as a group up to two times, initial plus
one. The first iteration shall be the first selected shell/fuze combination, the second iteration
shall be the second selected shell/fuze combination. However, special considerations state
that currently only one iteration shall be specified.
6. Selected from:  _omitted list is long_
7. Selected from: _omitted list is long_
8. Selected from: _omitted list is long_
9. Record as Target



Also found the CDN one after the NATO one.

FIRE MISSION CALL FOR FIRE (FM.CFF) (CAN)
Warning order Order is sent on the supported arm net: G11 THIS IS 13A.
FIRE MISSION OVER.
Target location The supported arm will point out the target to be engaged
by one of the following methods:
1 Grid reference, e.g., GRID 57822 67253 (with LAV, use 10
figs)
2 If a reference point is available (i.e., one either known to
both the supported arm and the observer, or visible and
recognizable to both), it may be used to point out the
target, e.g.:
a. REFERENCE RED BARN, SOUTHEAST ALONG TRACK
200 METRES, 2 BMPS IN HULL DOWN POSITION; or
b. REFERENCE TARGET AP1234, DIRECTION 0500, R200
A400, INFANTRY PLATOON WITH ATGM DUG IN WITH
OVERHEAD COVER.
3 If no convenient reference point is available, the supported
arm may request that a group of rounds or a smoke round
be fired to provide a reference point and then indicate the
target using the group of rounds or smoke, e.g.:
a. MARK BY SMOKE, REFERENCE POINT IN SQUARE
4927; or
b. REFERENCE SMOKE, NORTHWEST 300M, DEAD
TREE.
4 A direction and distance may be given if the supported
arm’s call sign location is known, e.g., DIRECTION 4800,
DISTANCE 1500, 3 x T72S ADVANCING SOUTH.
5 The supported arm may fire smoke or tracer and give the
location of the target in relation to such fire.
Direction Grid bearing in mils (unless stated otherwise).
Description of
target
As detailed as possible.
Type of fire
required
This part of the call for fire will tell the observer what is to
be done to the target, including any requirement for special
ammunition, e.g., NEUTRALIZE WITH SMOKE,
NEUTRALIZE or DESTROY.
Time/duration
of fire for effect
This is the time at which the supported arm wishes FFE to
begin and the duration of such fire, e.g., (NEUTRALIZE)
AS SOON AS POSSIBLE FOR FIVE MINUTES, or
(NEUTRALIZE WITH SMOKE) FOR THREE MINUTES AT
H PLUS 2.


----------



## George Wallace (7 Dec 2008)

b00161400 said:
			
		

> For everyone who has given me some constructive info, thankyou.  Perhaps I should be a bit more clear however.  I am curious as to what are the methods that we use to train this skill?  We have the simulators, we have live fire ranges.  Is there any other ways?
> 
> In my trades training I was on a simulator for about 2 hours and then during attacks we called in fire missions, which of course, were notional and really just put you through the motions of calling in a fire mission over the means.



There is the old tried and true.....Classroom.  Dry Trg in a classroom to 'drill' the format into the minds of the troops.  You can use a blackboard/greenboard, a Flipchart, a whiteboard, or whatever to draw a tgt and then mark "X's" for Adjustments.  The only limits on how to train iare the limits you place on your own imagination.


----------



## George Wallace (7 Dec 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Again just for info I am posting the current edition version of a FM.



*FM*'s are American *Field Manuals*.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (7 Dec 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> *FM*'s are American *Field Manuals*.



I was using FM as in Fire Mission, will edit to reflect this.


----------



## rampage800 (7 Dec 2008)

b00

To go along with what George said, another thing to try take something, anything really and put it in the center of the classroom, now grab 4 or 5 styrofoam cups and label them 1-5. Do your AACFF and have the first rd come in and miss the tgt, mark it with cup, now with your binos (forgot to mention that you needed those) begin your adjustments, you'll be able to track your adjustments after, see where maybe you went wrong. You can keep doing this till your blue in the face, just keep changing the OT (Observer to tgt, what you need to make the WORM Rule work) and how the rds land on the ground. 

In my experience its not getting the AACFF sequence out  that guys have trouble with, its what to do(correctly) with that  rounds once they start landing.


----------



## George Wallace (7 Dec 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Again just for info I am posting the current edition version of a FM.
> 
> SOP 704.07—FIRE MISSION CALL FOR FIRE (FM.CFF) (NATO)      WARNING ORDER sent
> 1. Purpose. Used to transmit initial fire for effect request for fire and/or orders to fire.
> ...


----------



## Michael OLeary (7 Dec 2008)

> 4 A direction and distance may be given if the supported
> arm’s call sign location is known, e.g., DIRECTION 4800,
> DISTANCE 1500, 3 x T72S ADVANCING SOUTH.   DIRECTION AND DESCRIPTION SHOULD BE RIGHT AFTER GRID



George, the distance and direction referred to are in case the observer is using Polar Coordinates to direct the fire mission.  That is why it refers to the supported arm call sign's location being known [i.e., by the firing unit].


----------



## Cleared Hot (7 Dec 2008)

NFLD Sapper,

Okay, rest assured that while what you quoted in USOPs is accurate it is for calls for fire from HQ's or trained observers, not SACFF so it is not what is asked of or taught to a line soldier.  The definitive references for firing Artillery are the Artillery Pubs, namely B-GL-371-002 and B-GL-371-004.  The reason USOPs are so named is because they are UNIT SOPs.  Yes they are NATO compliant, however that is why they include so much extra info, because for example the Cdns and the Dutch may not be on the same mapsheet.  I hope to God the Pte Bloggins is using the same map as his Bn HQ (in which will reside an FSCC who will also be on the same map or at the every least be able to lean over to the duty O's to convert.

In the end what I gave as a SACFF in my initial post is correct, what you cite is correct but never used, and what rampage800 listed is what a trained FOO would send.

B00,

The only one who really answered the initial question was Michael O'Leary who gave some good advice on areas to practice (George'e classroom point is also good advice).  Other than that make friends with a Gunner / Advanced Morterman and have them book some extra time in the IFT (Indirect Fire Trainer).


----------



## George Wallace (7 Dec 2008)

Thanks Michael

My mind is spinning.  I doubt a computer geek or a Gamer could follow this.  What ever happened to KISS?


----------



## daftandbarmy (8 Dec 2008)

We used to use the good old 'Puff Table': A model of a piece of ground made up using hessian with 'willing helpers' underneath with a handy dandy container of foot powder - a.k.a. 'Foo foo powder'. This can be set up anywhere. I have also seen more robust puff tables set up, more or less permanently, in a variety of training establishments around the world.

Its use is described here by an OC in 42 Cdo during shipboard training on their way down to the Falklands to beat up the Argies in 1982:

THE OTHER MILITARY SKILL I WOULD HIGHLIGHT AS
RECEIVING PARTICULAR ATTENTION WAS THAT OF CALLING FOR
AND CONTROLING NAVAL, ARTILLERY, TANK AND MORTAR FIRE
SUPPORT.  EVERY MAN IN MY COY WAS CAPABLE BY THE TIME
WE LANDED, OF CALLING FOR AND ADJUSTING FIRE SP, AND
HAD PRACTICED THIS ON WHAT WE CALL A "PUFF RANGE"; IN
THIS CASE A DETAILED CLOTH MODEL OF THE APPROACHES TO
PORT STANLEY BUILT IN THE EMPTY SWIMMING POOL UNDER THE
LANDING SPOT.  I GOT A GREAT KICK PRIOR TO THE ACTUAL
BATTLE PERSONALLY CALLING FOR, AND ADJUSTING, A TWO
BATTERY FIRE MISSION.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1986/WDG.htm


----------



## Old Sweat (8 Dec 2008)

Gunner Sweatie spent many a day under the puff table rolling the little table with the smoke generator on it. As the generator didn't work all that well, non-smoker Sweatie would end up puffing away on a cigarette and blowing smoke up the tube.

A puff table is a good device, but it has its limitations. First of these is that the view and perspective is really only correct from the point where the observer in the barrel sits. It is out of whack, especially for those at the ends of the benches. The graduations in the binoculars also are difficult to see and don't really line up.

In later life Sweatie fired quite a few missions on various puff ranges. It is good practice and an inexpensive way to learn the basics of target grid. It may seem very stone age compared to what is available these days, but it works.


----------



## Haligonian (8 Dec 2008)

Thanks for the ideas guys.


----------

