# Canada's History of poor MNDs



## Weinie (17 Jul 2021)

dapaterson said:


> Correct.  As they are Criminal Code charges, he is only subject to the penalties articulated in the Criminal Code.
> 
> Note that since this is not a proceeding under the Code of Service Discipline, there is no entitlement to Defence Counsel at Crown expense (NDA 249.17 / QR&O volume II chapter 101 article 101.11)
> 
> ...


You are being charitable by only framing him in one century.


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## dapaterson (17 Jul 2021)

Weinie said:


> You are being charitable by only framing him in one century.



I'm not 100% certain of all the early 1900s MNDs...


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## MJP (17 Jul 2021)

dapaterson said:


> I'm not 100% certain of all the early 1900s MNDs...


I can't recall if we have procured shovels lately.....


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## Weinie (17 Jul 2021)

dapaterson said:


> I'm not 100% certain of all the early 1900s MNDs...


They fought a war. We won.


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## Blackadder1916 (17 Jul 2021)

No turn of discussion to the qualities of previous MNDs, especially in a thread that touches on sexual scandal, can be complete without mention of the "*Tiffany Factor*".


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## Edward Campbell (17 Jul 2021)

Blackadder1916 said:


> No turn of discussion to the qualities of previous MNDs, especially in a thread that touches on sexual scandal, can be complete without mention of the "*Tiffany Factor*".



Off topic, but Bob Coates was the fellow who pushed the distinctive environmental uniform to the very top of the DND procurement priority list back circa 1984. We used to refer to the project as "Coates of many colours."


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## dapaterson (17 Jul 2021)

Weinie said:


> They fought a war. We won.


Because of or despite them?


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## Weinie (17 Jul 2021)

dapaterson said:


> Because of or despite them?


Flip a coin. Rock, paper scissors. Or use a 21st century algorithm which factors in all available inputted data to reach a conclusion.


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## Weinie (17 Jul 2021)

Edward Campbell said:


> Off topic, but Bob Coates was the fellow who pushed the distinctive environmental uniform to the very top of the DND procurement priority list back circa 1984. We used to refer to the project as "Coates of many colours."


Sigh..........Bob Coates was my MP, from my hometown.


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## cavalryman (17 Jul 2021)

Heh... I lived in Langenwinkel, a few hundred meters away and drove by Tiffany twice a day on my way to and from the base for three years, but moved there two years after Coates' visit.


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## Kilted (17 Jul 2021)

Weinie said:


> They fought a war. We won.


This was also the man who during the Boar War stated that he was outside of military authority and would not take orders from any officer.  He would be sent less than a year into the war. He, however, still recommended himself, for not one, but two Victoria Crosses. 

On his deathbed, he told the minister not to bother him because he would soon be sitting at the right hand of God and would be able to arrange everything himself.


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## Weinie (17 Jul 2021)

Kilted said:


> This was also the man who during the Boar War stated that he was outside of military authority and would not take orders from any officer.  He would be sent less than a year into the war. He, however, still recommended himself, for not one, but two Victoria Crosses.
> 
> On his deathbed, he told the minister not to bother him because he would soon be sitting at the right hand of God and would be able to arrange everything himself.


I'm not sure who you are referring to, but he isn't the first one, or the last,  to exaggerate "deeds". The "architects" are many. The builders are few.


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## Kilted (17 Jul 2021)

Weinie said:


> I'm not sure who you are referring to, but he isn't the first one, or the last,  to exaggerate "deeds". The "architects" are many. The builders are few.


Sam Hughes, Minister of Militia and Defence during WWI. He was sacked in 1916.


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## Kilted (17 Jul 2021)

Also of interesting note, we went through four MND during WWII (granted one of them died in a plane crash).  The last one was the grandfather of General Leslie.  I know this is off-topic, perhaps we should have an MND thread.


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## Colin Parkinson (17 Jul 2021)

Kilted said:


> Sam Hughes, Minister of Militia and Defence during WWI. He was sacked in 1916.


Not to mention his nifty shovel


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## Kilted (17 Jul 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Not to mention his nifty shovel


Or the Ross Rifle.


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## Colin Parkinson (17 Jul 2021)

Kilted said:


> Or the Ross Rifle.


To be fair the Ross rifle was actually pretty good, British ammunition manufacturing standards, not so much.


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## MilEME09 (17 Jul 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> To be fair the Ross rifle was actually pretty good, British ammunition manufacturing standards, not so much.


It was a good marksmanship rifle, tolerances were too tight for mud fields


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## Colin Parkinson (17 Jul 2021)

MilEME09 said:


> It was a good marksmanship rifle, tolerances were too tight for mud fields


As I recall it came to be the preferred sniper rifle


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## OldSolduer (18 Jul 2021)

Kilted said:


> Sam Hughes, Minister of Militia and Defence during WWI. He was sacked in 1916.


Read “Vimy” by Pierre Berton. There’s some good descriptions of Sam in that book.
Insane. He had to be.


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## dangerboy (18 Jul 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> Read “Vimy” by Pierre Berton. There’s some good descriptions of Sam in that book.
> Insane. He had to be.


I would also recommend the book "The Madman and the Butcher: The Sensational Wars of Sam Hughes and General Arthur Currie" by Tim Cook for information about Sam Hughes.


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## cavalryman (18 Jul 2021)

dangerboy said:


> I would also recommend the book "The Madman and the Butcher: The Sensational Wars of Sam Hughes and General Arthur Currie" by Tim Cook for information about Sam Hughes.


Seconded. I read it a few weeks ago.


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## daftandbarmy (18 Jul 2021)

Edward Campbell said:


> Off topic, but Bob Coates was the fellow who pushed the distinctive environmental uniform to the very top of the DND procurement priority list back circa 1984. We used to refer to the project as "Coates of many colours."



Things you can’t make up


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## Kilted (18 Jul 2021)

There has only been three MDN (including it's previous titles) who have gone on to become Prime Minister: John A. Macdonald, Mackenzie Bowell, and Kim Campbell. Bowl actually held both positions at the same time for about a week. Macdonald was also the joint Premier of the Province of Canada at the same time as well.


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## Loachman (19 Jul 2021)

And Kim was . . .









. . . best forgotten.


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## Loachman (19 Jul 2021)

Kilted said:


> Boar War



Pigs can be cunning and determined adversaries.

And Boers can be as well.


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## Edward Campbell (19 Jul 2021)

There were, to be sure, some pretty dreadfully poor MNDs (and PMs, too, and some who were both) over the past 150+ years. Sam Hughes is just the most famous infamous.

But, I think there was one very, very good one: Brooke Claxton who was MND from Dec 1946 to June 54. He reorganized the CF, in the way St Laurent and Eisenhower wanted and in the face of some ill-informed but stiff opposition from the admirals, generals and air marshals who wanted to return to the 1930s.


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## Weinie (20 Jul 2021)

Edward Campbell said:


> There were, to be sure, some pretty dreadfully poor MNDs (and PMs, too, and some who were both) over the past 150+ years. Sam Hughes is just the most famous infamous.
> 
> But, I think there was one very, very good one: Brooke Claxton who was MND from Dec 1946 to June 54. He reorganized the CF, in the way St Laurent and Eisenhower wanted and in the face of some ill-informed but stiff opposition from the admirals, generals and air marshals who wanted to return to the 1930s.


Wait for it, the video doesn't have audio, by design, until about 20 seconds in.

generals and majors xtc - Bing video


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## daftandbarmy (20 Jul 2021)

Weinie said:


> generals and majors xtc - Bing video



An interesting video for more than one reason:

"The music video shows the band playing servers and a group of men in military uniforms, one of them is Richard Branson, driving a Go-kart and jumping on a bouncy castle. According to Andy Partridge, Branson appeared "because he's a complete publicity hog. He decided he was gonna turn up and keep suggesting that he be in the video. That is the worst video ever made by man."[4]" 









						Generals and Majors - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## Weinie (20 Jul 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> An interesting video for more than one reason:
> 
> "The music video shows the band playing servers and a group of men in military uniforms, one of them is Richard Branson, driving a Go-kart and jumping on a bouncy castle. According to Andy Partridge, Branson appeared *"because he's a complete publicity hog*. He decided he was gonna turn up and keep suggesting that he be in the video. *That is the worst video ever made by man.*"[4]"
> 
> ...


Seems to have worked out OK for him.


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## Good2Golf (20 Jul 2021)

Weinie said:


> Seems to have worked out OK for him.


👍🏼 

…especially since he had enough sense not to fly into space in a giant dildo!


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## Maxman1 (23 Jul 2021)

Kilted said:


> This was also the man who during the Boar War stated that he was outside of military authority and would not take orders from any officer.  He would be sent less than a year into the war. He, however, still recommended himself, for not one, but two Victoria Crosses.
> 
> On his deathbed, he told the minister not to bother him because he would soon be sitting at the right hand of God and would be able to arrange everything himself.



He also had a downright ideological hatred for the British Army and had us adopt the Ross Rifle *because *it was rejected by the British Army. He was also convinced the Boers won, somehow.


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## Old Sweat (23 Jul 2021)

And is there any relevance to the tiidbit that Brooke Claxton was a BSM who was awarded the DCM, while the others were officers or without service, some, such as Danson, after non-commissioned service?


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## Blackadder1916 (23 Jul 2021)

Old Sweat said:


> And is there any relevance to the tiidbit that Brooke Claxton was a BSM who was awarded the DCM, while the others were officers or without service, some, such as Danson, after non-commissioned service?



Claxton's service records are an interesting read.  Before he went overseas as a Gunner, he was a "provisional" lieutenant with the Victoria Rifles of Canada.  When it transpired that he would not be put on a draft for overseas service as an infantry officer, he attested (in Apr 1917) for CEF service in the ranks (at age 18) with McGill's Siege Artillery Draft.  He arrived in France approx a year later after some months in England with ranks of cpl to sgt (acting?) and reverting back to gunner.  Once in France confirmed as sergeant and then to BQMS before the armistice.  His DCM refers to him as acting as BSM.  Returned to Canada and demobbed in May 1919 as a 21 year old.  After the war he was briefly in the Militia as an officer, but despite being recommended for promotion to substantive Lt (notation that his war service was not commissioned and so not considered qualifying) and even Capt, he left in 1926 still a Provisional Lieutenant.


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## OldSolduer (23 Jul 2021)

The appointment as the MND in most governments takes a back seat to Ministers of Finance and Global Affairs.


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## Loachman (23 Jul 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> The appointment as the MND in most governments takes a back seat to Ministers of Finance and Global Affairs.



And environment.

And . . . , well, everything else.


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## Brad Sallows (23 Jul 2021)

For some reason MND doesn't have quite the same heft as SecDef.


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## OldSolduer (24 Jul 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> For some reason MND doesn't have quite the same heft as SecDef.


The US military is "Ginormous" and the leverage it can bring to bear is downright scary politically. Therefore it commands a big part of the "power pie" in the US. 

The military in the US really didn't start out that way. The US til post WW1 really didn't want a huge standing army/military and was isolationist until FDR or thereabouts. Post WWII we can see the military starting to become self aware and evolve into what it is today.


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## daftandbarmy (24 Jul 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> The US military is "Ginormous" and the leverage it can bring to bear is downright scary politically. Therefore it commands a big part of the "power pie" in the US.
> 
> The military in the US really didn't start out that way. The US til post WW1 really didn't want a huge standing army/military and was isolationist until FDR or thereabouts. Post WWII we can see the military starting to become self aware and evolve into what it is today.



And Eisenhower famously warned everyone about that evolution:

Ike's Warning Of Military Expansion, 50 Years Later​
On Jan. 17, 1961, President Dwight Eisenhower gave the nation a dire warning about what he described as a threat to democratic government. He called it the military-industrial complex, a formidable union of defense contractors and the armed forces.

Eisenhower, a retired five-star Army general, the man who led the allies on D-Day, made the remarks in his farewell speech from the White House.

As NPR's Tom Bowman tells _Morning Edition_ co-host Renee Montagne, Eisenhower used the speech to warn about "the immense military establishment" that had joined with "a large arms industry."

Here's an excerpt:



> "In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists, and will persist."











						Ike's Warning Of Military Expansion, 50 Years Later
					

On Jan. 17, 1961, President Dwight Eisenhower gave the nation a dire warning about what he described as a threat to democratic government. He called it the military-industrial complex, a formidable union of defense contractors and the armed forces.




					www.npr.org


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## Ostrozac (24 Jul 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> The appointment as the MND in most governments takes a back seat to Ministers of Finance and Global Affairs.


It is perhaps telling that despite Brooke Claxton’s stellar service both as a soldier and as MND, he is probably more remembered for his service as the Minister of Health. After all, Defence hasn’t even named a building after him, while Health Canada did (in Tunney’s Pasture).


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## FJAG (24 Jul 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> The US military is "Ginormous" and the leverage it can bring to bear is downright scary politically. Therefore it commands a big part of the "power pie" in the US.
> 
> The military in the US really didn't start out that way. The US til post WW1 really didn't want a huge standing army/military and was isolationist until FDR or thereabouts. Post WWII we can see the military starting to become self aware and evolve into what it is today.


So is Canada's. The concept of a standing army outnumbering the "Militia" because of a "come as you are war" is a Cold War concept that just refuses to go away.

We still have a headquarters large enough to support a force triple to quadruple our size.

🍻


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## dapaterson (24 Jul 2021)

Ostrozac said:


> It is perhaps telling that despite Brooke Claxton’s stellar service both as a soldier and as MND, he is probably more remembered for his service as the Minister of Health. After all, Defence hasn’t even named a building after him, while Health Canada did (in Tunney’s Pasture).



The CFSME building to train EOD should be named after Rocky Leja, but we are where we are...


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## daftandbarmy (24 Jul 2021)

FJAG said:


> So is Canada's. The concept of a standing army outnumbering the "Militia" because of a "come as you are war" is a Cold War concept that just refuses to go away.
> 
> We still have a headquarters large enough to support a force triple to quadruple our size.
> 
> 🍻



Which is probably the point, really.

All we need now is a realistic mobilization plan to justify it.

Hey, maybe we can start by numbering our Infantry battalions from 1 to 200+?


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## Rifleman62 (27 Jul 2021)

British Defense Secretary​


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## Maxman1 (15 Aug 2021)

And in other news, Paul Helleyer passed away recently.






						Former federal defence minister Paul Hellyer dies at 98 - Medicine Hat News
					

Paul Theodore Hellyer, the influential former federal defence minister, has died at the age of 98. Hellyer fell and struck his head on June 19, losing the ability to walk and temporarily losing the ability to speak. He convalesced at St. Michael’s Hospital in Toronto for about a month before...



					medicinehatnews.com
				




Whoever decided to use a photo of him next to a sailor in square rig sure has a sense of humour.


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## FSTO (15 Aug 2021)

^^ The like wasn’t for Mr Hellyer’s death but at the comment regarding a uniform the minister needlessly got rid of.


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## Maxman1 (15 Aug 2021)

Not to worry, I assumed it was for the comment.


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## daftandbarmy (15 Aug 2021)

Maxman1 said:


> And in other news, Paul Helleyer passed away recently.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## mariomike (15 Aug 2021)

FSTO said:


> ^^ The like wasn’t for Mr Hellyer’s death but at the comment regarding a uniform the minister needlessly got rid of.


I don't recall anyone in our PRes RCASC company being noticeably upset when we switched from the khaki 1949 pattern Battle Dress to the "new" green uniform.


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## Halifax Tar (15 Aug 2021)

mariomike said:


> I don't recall anyone in our PRes RCASC company being noticeably upset when we switched from the khaki 1949 pattern Battle Dress to the "new" green uniform.



I don't think the Army, or the RCAF for that matter, suffered a loss of identity, culture or pride quite like the RCN did with the implementation of unification.


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## mariomike (15 Aug 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> I don't think the Army, or the RCAF for that matter, suffered a loss of identity, culture or pride quite like the RCN did with the implementation of unification.


I still admire the photos of my father in his RCN uniform during the war. He was an Engine Room ART APP.

Can't picture him in anything other than the old "square rig".

I asked him why he joined at age 17. He said, "For the uniform."


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## Maxman1 (16 Aug 2021)

mariomike said:


> I don't recall anyone in our PRes RCASC company being noticeably upset when we switched from the khaki 1949 pattern Battle Dress to the "new" green uniform.



I guess the Navy experienced it differently.


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## mariomike (16 Aug 2021)

Maxman1 said:


> I guess the Navy experienced it differently.


I guess so. This seems like a logical explanation,


> I don't think the Army, or the RCAF for that matter, suffered a loss of identity, culture or pride quite like the RCN did with the implementation of unification.


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