# Medak Pocket (info, documentaries, etc. - merged)



## Travis Silcox

Hey

I need the name of a battle that took place somewhere in Yugoslavia, it‘s been said to be the biggest battle canada was in since korea. essentially what happened was that the dutch and french pulled out and the CAR dug in and defended a city.

..or something like that

Thanks in advance
Travis Silcox


----------



## Doug VT

The Medak Massacre: Canada‘s trial by fire 

By SCOTT TAYLOR and BRIAN NOLAN,
THE SUNDAY (TORONTO) SUN,
November 1, 1998 

Untold story of this nation‘s largest military action since Korean War 

During Canada‘s UN peacekeeping stint in the Balkans, prior to taking a more aggressive role with NATO, some 100 soldiers became casualties, and were often put in impossible situations - taken hostage, mined, fired at, resented, threatened - all the while with imprecise orders on whether they could, couldn‘t or shouldn‘t fight back. 

Perhaps the closest the Canadians came to war, or battle, was in the Croatian invasion of the Medak Pocket in the Serb-held Krajian area of Croatia in the fall of 1993. Yet, for political reasons, virtually no publicity was given to the Canadians‘ trial by fire. 

Here, in the first of three excerpts of a starling new book focusing on Canada‘s UN peacekeeping in the 1990s, is the little-known story of Canada‘s role in the battle of the Medak Pocket. 

The book, Tested Mettle, published by Esprit de Corps books, is by Scott Taylor and Brian Nolan whose previous book, Tarnished Brass, was a national bestseller. 

At 6:05 a.m., on Sept. 9, 1993, the Croatian artillery bombardment rolled into the Medak Pocket like a wave of thunder. All along the 25- km valley geysers of earth and flame shot skyward. Lieutenant Tyrone Greene of the 2 PPCLI (Princess Patricia‘s Canadian Light Infantry) was heading out the door on his way to the morning order‘s group when he observed a shell explode about 5 km away. He turned to go back inside to report the shot when a 152-mm mortar round impacted behind him and threw the big officer flat. 

Seconds later, the rest of the Croat mortar battery opened fire in earnest. 

Greene‘s platoon was to witness firsthand a devastating barrage that would crumble Serb defenses. From the outset, the town of Medak was the primary target for the Croat gunners. It was the Serb headquarters and a vital transportation hub. 

Back at battalion headquarters in Gracac, LCol. Jim Calvin anxiously wondered what was happening north in the Medak Pocket. He could feel the ground shake and saw the plumes of smoke. 

As the day progressed, Calvin was pressured by his anxious UN commanders in New York to provide them with a clear assessment of the deteriorating situation. He went forward in his APC to liaise with Lt. Greene and ordered the subaltern to set up an observation post to keep track of the battle. For the next three days, the men of Greene‘s Nine Platoon were the sole eyes and ears of the international community. It was essential that they hold their ground. 

That evening, there was a significant shift in the Croat bombardment. The change in the fire plan signified the next phase of the Croat attack: Atop the ridgeline, Croat special forces and dismounted infantry launched a lightning pincer advance, rolling up the surprised Serb pickets in a series of deadly, one-sided firefights. Croatian armour columns then rolled down the valley. 

Calvin was constantly calling Lt. Greene for updates as the UN Headquarters tried to plot out the political ramifications of the offensive. Every time Greene radioed in his reports, his position was immediately bombed by Croat mortars. It dawned on the young lieutenant that the Croats were using their radio "direction finding" equipment to zero in on his broadcasts, apparently mistaking his signals for those of the Serbians (who were, in fact, using land-line field telephones to communicate messages). 

From then on, Greene only used the radio in emergencies, and tried to switch locations when he did so. 

By the evening of Sept. 11, the tide of the battle began shifting as a major Serbian counter-attack was mounting. The gaggle of wounded soldiers and fleeing refugees along the main road in Medak was replaced by determined Serb reinforcements pushing forward into the pocket. 

Buses, tanks and even armoured trains began pouring into the region from all over the Krajina. For the next 72 hours, the Serbs and Croats fought a pitched battle. The counter-thrust blunted the Croat offensive and both sides began digging in along their new front lines. 

With the combat situation temporarily stalemated on Sept. 14, the UN began to press the warring sides for a ceasefire. International pressure was for the Croatians - clearly the aggressors in this instance - to pull back to the Sept. 9 ceasefire lines. To help force the issue, the Serbs soon demonstrated their resolve to escalate the strategic stakes. On the afternoon of Sept. 14. They launched a Soviet-built Frog missile at the suburbs of the Croatian capital of Zagreb. The heavy-calibre tactical rocket plunged harmlessly into a field, but Croatians quickly agreed to remove their troops from the Medak valley. The "buffer zone" created as the Croats withdrew was to be occupied by UN peacekeepers. 

French General Jean Cot, the UN commander in Sector South, knew that for the ceasefire to take hold, oeacekeepers would have to be deployed, quickly and in as much strength as could be mustered. LCol. Jim Calvin and his Patricias were ordered to prepare to advance within the next 24 hours. To reinforce his two rifle companies (Charlie and Delta) which were already in the Medak Pocket, Calvin was to receive two companies of well-equipped mechanized infantry from the French army. 

Calvin was uneasy that he might have to forcibly oust the Croat forces. The magnitude of this possibility weighed heavily on him. 

At 2 p.m. the next day, Lt. Greene gave the order for his APCs to advance into the killing zone. As they moved forward, the troops could see how close the Serbs had been to losing the town of Medak itself. Battle debris and bodies indicated that the Croats had even established a foothold in the northernmost buildings before being beaten back. 

Calvin‘s plan was for a two-pronged push up the valley. The Canadian companies would provide the left-hand column and the French army the right. Greene‘s Nine Platoon was the centre of Charlie Company‘s formation, with Seven Platoon right and Eight Platoon on the far left. Major Dan Drew‘s Delta Company would follow Charlie‘s advance and take up position to prevent any subsequent Serbian advances. 

On the afternoon of Sept. 15, 1993, Private Scott Leblanc, an artillery reservist from Nova Scotia, was humping a C-9 light machine gun, as Eight Platoon advanced toward the little village of Sitlik. Off to their right flank, they heard the developing fire fight between Greene‘s men and the Croat defenders. Leblanc‘s section, commanded by Sgt. Rod Dearing, had just reached a low hedgerow when Capt. Dan McKillop signaled them to halt. McKillop had heard Greene‘s situation report on the company radio net and had spotted the Croat rifle pits about 200 metres to their front. The troops began digging in. Fire- team partners took turns shoveling. Leblanc was pumped up as gunfire continued to erupt across the Medak Valley floor and crept ominously closer. 

Raging firefights 

Capt. McKillop yelled to Sgt. Dearing that combat engineers were on the way with heavy equipment to assist with the trench digging. A Croat machine-gun burst cut short McKillop‘s comments. Dearing took cover behind his APC and started pumping rounds back at the opposite hedgerow. The burly sergeant radiated; his example was infectious. Young Leblanc switched his C-9 to automatic and loosed a long, withering burst toward the Croat muzzle flashes. 

At dusk, with the firefights still raging across the valley, Maj. Drew shouted for Warranr Officer Matt Stopford to prepare a section of soldiers. Calvin had received a telephone call from the local Croatian commander, who seemed to want to negotiate a peaceful UN passage of no-man‘s-land. 

The meeting was heated, with Calvin matching his Croat host‘s bluster and rhetoric. It was agreed that Stopford‘s and Drew‘s protection party would remain at the Croatian lines to ensure that the main battle group would cross without incident the next day. Calvin returned to his headquarters while Stopford set up a duty roster for his six soldiers and two APCs deployed in the middle of the road. 

Almost immediately the Croats began moving into fire positions around the Canadian detachment. At point blank range, they set up heavy machine guns and Russian-made anti-tank missiles. "I guess we‘re not going anywhere for a while," quipped Stopford. 

Throughout the long night, Stopford remained uneasy about his situation. He could see tracer fire being exchanged between Sgt. Dearing‘s men and the Croat forces in the village of Sitlik. Despite the intensity of that combat, he was more concerned about the activity of the Croat troops to his immediate front. They appeared to be a special forces unit, unlike anything he‘d seen thus far in the Balkans. Well equipped, with an assortment of modern weaponry, these guys were all young, fit and extremely intense. The men Stopford was observing were part of the new Croatian army - equipped and trained by U.S. "advisers." 

These Croats were unconcerned by the Canadian presence. Muffled explosions could be heard up the valley and occasional single shots rang out. From a cluster of buildings just to his front, Stopford heard sudden screams, punctuated by a burst of gunfire. A moment of silence followed by raucous laughter. 

Moments later, a nearby explosion shook the ground and a farm building burst into flames. Stopford raced back to his APC and radioed headquarters. His voice cracking with emotion, Stopford said the Croats had begun "ethnic cleansing" of the Medak Pocket. "You‘ve got to move now, " he yelled. "They‘re killing people. We can‘t wait..." 

Four kilometers to the rear, LCol. Calvin didn‘t need Stopford‘s report to understand what was happening. Fires were visible everywhere in the valley. He radioed UN headquarters in Zagreb and requested permission to advance immediately. He was ordered to remain in location and gather evidence for use at a future war crime trial. 

Stopford was furious. Leaving his APC, he walked towards the Croat position, where the little village was burning furiously. Gunshots still echoed, along with drunken laughter. 

A drunken Croat soldier emerged from a building and staggered toward Stopford. A girl could be heard screaming inside the house. Draped on the drunken soldier‘s head was a pair of blood-soaked panties. 

The Canadian stepped forward, chambered a round in his rifle and flicked off the safety catch. Shaking with horror and rage, Stopford wanted to kill the Croat so badly he could taste it. The Croat smiled, threw down his assault rifle and held up his hands - empty now except for the undergarment. To shoot him would be cold-blooded murder. Stopford couldn‘t do it. As he walked slowly back to his carrier, he could hear the drunken rapist laughing. 

As the sun rose over the horizon. It revealed a Medak Valley engulfed in smoke and flames. As the frustrated soldiers of 2PPCLI waited for the order to move forward into the pocket, shots and screams still rang out as the ethnic cleansing continued. 

Sharp at noon, Major Drew‘s Delta Company began to roll forward. The long line of white UN APCs bristled with rifles and machine-guns as infantry rode topside with the cargo hatches open. For the weary, embattled soldiers of Charlie Company, the armoured column with large, blue UN flags fluttering from the radio antenna was a welcoming sight. 

However, the Croat defenders weren‘t impressed. Their special forces company that had deployed behind Stopford‘s detachment concluded their extra-curricular activities and took up fire positions to block the main road. Somehow the Croatian general‘s agreement had not been passed along to his forward troops. The Croat company commander was adamant that any attempt to cross his lines would be resisted with "all available force." 

Calvin played his one trump card to avoid a slaughter. 

About 20 members of the international press had tagged along, anxious to see the Medak battleground. Calvin called an informal press conference at the head of the column and loudly accused the Croats of trying to hide war crimes against the Serb inhabitants. 

The Croats started withdrawing back to their old lines, taking with them whatever loot they hadn‘t destroyed. All livestock had been killed and houses torched. 

French reconnaissance troops and the Canadian command element pushed up the valley and soon began to find bodies of Serb civilians, some already decomposing, others freshly slaughtered. In one village, Calvin saw the bodies of two young girls who had been repeatedly raped, tied t ochairs and then set on fire. 

Rotting corpses 

Rain fell steadily through the night as those few soldiers who had deployed into no-man‘s-land waited for a possible counter-attack from either Serbs or Croats. Finally, on the drizzly morning of Sept. 17, teams of UN civilian police arrived to probe the smouldering ruins for murder victims. 

Rotting corpses lying out in the open were catalogued, then turned over to the peacekeepers for burial. 

The emotional effect on the Canadians was incalculable. They had seen the decomposed bodies and lived with the putrid stench of death, and had helplessly listened to people dying and being killed. 

However, as details of the casualties inflicted on the Croat forces by the Canadian "peacekeepers" became known, morale was roused. Officially, the Croats admitted to 27 of their soldiers being killed or wounded by the UN troops in the Medak. Unofficially, the tally was pegged at 30 dead and over 100 wounded. 

HERE‘S AND INVESTIGATION:

It was the most severe action Canadian troops had been involved in since the Korean War. Yet they had sustained only four wounded and no one killed. 

Senior defence bureaucrats back in Ottawa had no way of predicting the outcome of the engagement in terms of political fallout. To them, there was no point in calling media attention to a situation that might easily backfire. Besides, a general election was underway in Canada with former defence minister Kim Campbell now the prime minister. So Medak was relegated to the memory hole - no publicity, no recriminations, no official record. Except for those soldiers involved, Canada‘s most lively military action since the Korean War simply never happened. 


       The Medak Pocket Operation comprises the military operations of the Republic of Croatia (Croat), United Nations Protection Force (UN or UNPROFOR) and, to a lesser extent, the Â«Republic of Serbian KrajinaÂ» (Serb) forces near Medak, Croatia, in September 1993. 

       Sadly, it is only a typical example of how war is, and apparently always has been, waged in the Balkans. 

       It is especially amenable to legal study for a variety of reasons. The operation was confined in both time and geography. The units involved were limited in number. UNPROFOR reported on the operation in a particularly detailed and helpful manner. UN forces anticipated law of war violations and gathered much relevant information during the operation. Lastly, it was a recent event so evidence and witnesses were still available. 

II. Overview
       The operation took place just north of the town of Medak and just outside the United Nations Protected Area designated as Sector South. Medak is about 150 kilometres south-west of Zagreb. 

       Before 9 September 1993, the Medak Pocket was a collection of small rural villages and hamlets forming a finger of Serb- controlled land jutting into Croat territory. 

       On 9 September, at about 6:00 a.m., Croat forces attacked the Pocket. An artillery, mortar and/or tank fire barrage preceded an infantry and tank advance. Croats attacked from the north-east and quickly killed or routed the few Serb defenders. Overrunning the Serb defences, the Croat forces soon captured Divoselo (Strunici), Citluk (Licki), Donje Selo, and the surrounding villages. By 10 September, the Croatian army was in charge of the area. 

       The rationale for the Croat attack is impossible to determine with certainty. Speculation includes: a rehearsal by the Croats for a larger operation, a test of their forces by the Croats, retaliation by the Croats for Serb shelling of Gospic, a desire by the Croats to straighten their front, or simply a Croat desire to seize territory. 

III. Description
       Evidence of events during the Medak Pocket Operation emerges from various witnesses‘ experiences. The following is an extremely summarized version of their experiences. 

       Captain "1" was in command of the Serb forces in the Divo Selo area. In the face of the Croat attack, he ordered his soldiers to withdraw. This they did along with many local civilians. Over the next days, this mixed group made its way by foot to Serb territory. During the escape, an unidentified Serb soldier escaping with the group told the Captain that Croat soldiers had spared him. Indeed, the Croats told the unidentified soldier to escape when they could easily have killed or captured him. 

       "2" was a soldier in the Serb army on 9 September. Upon the Captain‘s orders, he withdrew in the face of the Croat attack. During his escape to Serb territory, he saw the Croats burn houses and steal livestock. He came across a body. Someone had either badly mutilated it after death or had tortured the victim before death. During his escape, he entered Citluk to try to find food. There he came within 10 to 15 metres of a group of Croat soldiers. He heard instructions translated into German for some soldiers. The apparent commander said in Croatian: Â«Those houses are Serbian houses and you can do anything you wish.Â» 

       "3" was a Serb soldier on the front line at the beginning of the Croat attack. He retreated with his comrades but became separated from them. He came across a female body with an eye, an ear, and all right-hand fingers cut off. "3" saw Croat soldiers setting fire to houses and stealing sheep. 

       Three other Serb soldiers all fled the Croat attack. They all report that the only Croat activity they saw was legitimate Â«soldier against soldierÂ» combat. 

       "4", a resident of "A", was in the local Serb militia. He fled the Croat attack and immediately returned to his home. There he saw his elderly sister-in-law dead. A search of the scene after UNPROFOR took control of the area revealed only some clothing. She was wearing this clothing when "4" saw her dead body. During "4‘s" escape to Serb territory, he saw Croat soldiers killing sheep belonging to local civilians and stealing five or six tractors owned by the local populace. 

       "5", a resident of "A", was also a member of the Serb militia. On 9 September, he was on the front line. Upon the attack he fled, returned to his home, and warned his family to flee. While he was in hiding, before he reached safety, he saw his tractor being stolen by the Croats. Croat soldiers wounded him during his escape. 

       Two persons, "6" and "7", witnessed the murder of an 83 year- old blind woman. 

       "6" was a resident of "B". He left his home at the beginning of the Croat attack. Upon leaving, he saw the victim and a younger unidentified woman outside her home, from about 200 metres away. About 20 unidentified Croat soldiers came up to the victim‘s house and ordered the younger woman away. Then, the soldiers gunned down the victim. After this, "6" fled to the forest with relatives, where he eventually joined a mixed group of Serb military and civilians. They walked to safety. 

       "7", a resident of "A", was hiding in the woods also near the victim‘s house. From the woods, she saw 10 unidentified Croat soldiers approach the victim, who was standing alone outside her home, and simply kill her. 

       "8" was a resident of "B". During the early morning of 9 September, he tried to evacuate two wounded Serb soldiers in his private vehicle. Croat forces ambushed the vehicle, their gunfire hitting all three vehicle occupants. "8" believed the gunfire killed both of his passengers. "8" escaped and hid in bushes approximately 20 metres from the ambush site. Ten to 15 unidentified soldiers approached the vehicle, dragged the two dead Serb soldiers out, placed the bodies near a building and set the building on fire. In "8‘s"; original statement, he said one of his passengers was alive when taken from the vehicle by the Croats. He also said that they placed both the wounded soldier and the body of the other dead soldier in the building before setting it afire. The correction of the original statement was not placed in all versions of the various reports compiled by UN organizations. 

       "9", a resident of "A", fled the initial attack with her family. When shortly thereafter she returned to her house to get shoes, she was shot and wounded by unidentified Croat soldiers. She heard the soldier‘s conversation from 300 to 500 metres away. The conversation showed that the Croats deliberately targeted her as a civilian. One soldier objected to shooting at her with, Â«No, it‘s a womanÂ»; the other replied, Â«It does not matterÂ». 

       "10" resided in "A". During the 9 September attack, she was in her home. "10" son fled the house at the start of the attack. He took his rifle with him. No one has seen him since, and he is presumed to be dead. An unidentified Croat soldier saw her through a window then threw a grenade into her house. The subsequent explosion wounded her. The same soldier entered the house and fired into the room in which she lay. This gunfire did not hit her. Wounded but still in her house, "10" observed two Croat vehicles pull up disguised as UN vehicles (i.e. white with Â«UNÂ» lettering). These vehicles carried Croat military forces. She heard instructions, translated between German and Croatian, to slaughter everything and leave nothing. She saw Croats killing her sheep and pigs. During her escape, she also saw Croats killing domestic animals, burning houses and stealing roof tiles. She eventually made her way to safety. 

       "11" lived between "B" and "A". He and his family escaped to the woods at the beginning of the attack. He fled with his rifle. From hiding, he returned to his house on 10 September. There he found all his possessions destroyed, his animals mostly dead or injured and his house burning. During the several days it took "11" to reach safety, he was shot at several times and eventually wounded. A neighbour accompanied "11" during most of the time. 

       "12", a resident of "B", also fled during the attack carrying his rifle. On 10 September, while still in the area, Croat soldiers discovered him and a friend. The Croats arrested both and ordered them to turn over their weapons. A Croat soldier then used his rifle to hit "12". "12" fled with the Croats trying unsuccessfully to shoot him. His friend apparently did not escape, not having been seen since. He spent the next several days hiding in various houses and in the forest in the area. During this time, he discovered Croats had taken the furniture and animals from his house. "12" observed the Croats stealing sheep, cows, and horses belonging to others. He was shot at by Croats twice and wounded in the leg on the second occasion. 

       "13", a resident of "A", fled the 9 September Croat attack. During his escape, he saw civilian Croats stealing cattle, including his own cows and calves. 

       "14" a resident of "A", escaped from her house on 9 September. During the several days she spent in the woods before she made her way to safety in Medak, she saw Croat soldiers burning houses and throwing grenades into houses. Other Croats fired upon her while she was walking to Medak. 

       "15" lived in "C". She entered the Pocket on 26 September to look for her sheep. While searching, she came across the body of a dead female, whose fingers were cut off. 

       Many witnesses report joining up with groups of fleeing Serb soldiers or mixed groups of fleeing Serb civilians and Serb soldiers. 

       Many male civilian residents of the area carried or fled with their rifles. 

       There are many witnesses available who, while not seeing any illegal activity by Croatian forces, can establish the general non-damaged nature of the area prior to the attack and the non- military use of most of the civilian houses. 

       Within several days of their attack, Croatian authorities showed a willingness to withdraw to their 8 September positions. Serb artillery attacks on Karlovac and a Serb missile attack on Zagreb may have prompted this willingness. 

       Negotiations took place, and the parties eventually agreed that the Croats would withdraw to their 8 September positions, and UN forces would occupy the territory vacated by the Croats. UN forces consisted of Canbat I, the Canadian battalion of the Princess Patricia‘s Canadian Light Infantry. It was augmented by two companies of infantry from two separate French battalions. The Croat withdrawal and insertion of UN forces started on 15 September and were originally to be completed by 6:00 p.m., 16 September. 

       During the evening of 15 September, UN and Croat authorities held a meeting to iron out the implementing details of the original agreement. 

       As the UN forces began to deploy into the Pocket on 16 September, they could hear tens of explosions and see new smoke rising from Croat-controlled territory. There were no Serb forces in those areas nor had there been for many days. Such explosions and smoke had not been seen before 15 September. They also heard small arms fire from the same area. There are many witnesses to this including nearly all Canbat I personnel, UNMOs, UNCIVPOLs, UN civilian personnel, UN and Canadian Forces public affairs personnel and news reporters. All suspected that the Croats were engaged in ethnic cleansing of the Pocket before turning it over to the UN. 

       During the morning of 16 September, several more meetings took place between Croat and UN authorities. As a result, the time by which UN forces were to complete the takeover of territory evacuated by the Croats was delayed 24 hours until 17 September. 

       At noon, 16 September, Croat forces prevented Canbat I soldiers from crossing into the Pocket. This was a violation of the agreement. UN public affairs video and radio, plus Reuters news agency, videotaped this delay. Additionally, there were numerous witnesses to this delay. UN personnel felt the delay was a deliberate tactic used by the Croats to give them more time to complete their ethnic cleansing of the Pocket. UNPROFOR pressed the Croats, and after a delay of about two hours, they allowed UN forces to enter the Pocket. 

       The explosions and smoke from fresh fires continued to be evident from Croat-controlled parts of the Pocket throughout the Croat withdrawal. Again, there are many witnesses to this, including all UN personnel involved in the operation. 

       As UN forces entered the Pocket, they found every building burning or demolished. There were hundreds of such buildings in the several villages and hamlets, none of which were habitable. Special sweep teams assessed and recorded damage, searched for survivors and collected bodies. The teams included UNPROFOR medical officers, UNCIVPOLs, and soldiers. 

       On 16 September, in the Medak Pocket, "16" saw the crest of the Croat Ninth Mechanized Brigade (Ninth) on several Croat army trucks. He also saw the crest of the Croat 111th Home Defence (HD) Brigade (111th) on a Croat army truck. 

       "17" noted Croat soldiers with the shoulder flashes of the Ninth Brigade. On 16 September, he saw Croat police of the Special Police in the Medak area. He witnessed the explosions and fires that preceded the Croat withdrawal. He also saw the complete destruction throughout the Medak Pocket. 

       "18" heard the explosions and saw the fires within Croat- controlled territory on 16 September. He questioned a Croat liaison officer about these. The Croat officer replied that maybe the Croats were destroying their own homes in the area. "18" also observed that the Croat troops within the territory did not react to the explosions as they would to incoming artillery. He witnessed the total destruction and devastation throughout the area. He saw no house undemolished and took photographs of the damage. 

       Also on 16 September, "19" saw about 15 Croat Special Police at Drjlei in the Pocket. These Special Police appeared fresh, probably having recently arrived in the area. 

       During a 16 September meeting held at 10:00 a.m. an UNPROFOR officer specifically asked a Croatian officer to stop the explosions and fires in Croat-controlled territory. The Croatian officer clearly ordered to ensure his troops stopped those actions. 

       Two more representations to the same effect were made to the Croats that day. The Croats said that Croat soldiers were firing into the houses, but that Croat forces were causing the explosions by detonating mines to make the area safe. 

       On 17 September, after personally viewing the destruction in the Pocket, an UNPROFOR officer expressed his disappointment at this devastation to Croat officers. The Croats offered no explanation, but said they would again warn their troops. 

       Also on 17 September, during a dispute between UN forces and the Croatian Army on the exact proper location of their respective forces, an UNPROFOR officer met a Croatian officer in the Pocket. The Croatian officer had a map and was plainly in charge of the Croat forces. The map had been obviously and crudely altered, and it no longer represented the earlier agreed upon placement of various forces. 

       On 19 September, Croatian and UNPROFOR officers met and discussed the exact boundaries of the UN zone of responsibility in the Pocket. 

       On that same date, an UNPROFOR officer met Croatian officers. During this meeting, a Croatian officer threatened to have his Croat forces fire on UN forces, if he did not receive the cooperation he wanted. 

       On 22 September, a meeting was held to finalize the agreed upon positions of Croat and UN forces in the Medak Pocket. A Croatian officer signed a map depicting the agreed relative positions. 

       The Medak Pocket area falls within the area of responsibility of the Croat OZ Gospic. Croat units involved were largely from OZ Gospic. Some Special Police Forces from OZ Split were seen during the operation, but their role seemed to be secondary. 

       The nominal OZ Gospic Commander was a particular Croatian officer. However, during the relevant prelude to the attack and the attack itself, he was not in command due to his absence on leave and to illness. The actual OZ Commander was another officer. 

       The major Croat unit involved in the attack was the Ninth Mechanized Brigade (Ninth), which is unofficially called the Â«WolvesÂ». It had been designated the 6th Mechanized Brigade until about July 1993. The Ninth was directly responsible to OZ Gospic. Graffiti left on the walls of buildings in the Pocket by Croat forces included the Â«NinthÂ» and Â«WolvesÂ». 

       The 111th also participated in the attack. Miscellaneous other Croat army units formed a minor part of the attacking forces. 

       The UN Military Information (MI) Branch (at UNPROFOR headquarters and elsewhere) compiles orders of battle (orbats) for all the protagonists in the former Yugoslavia. 

       UNPROFOR units sweep teams recovered 18 bodies in the Pocket in the immediate aftermath of the operation. Croat authorities turned over another 64 bodies they said they recovered in the Medak Pocket. These bodies were all given to the Serb authorities. Of all the bodies recovered, 59 (71 per cent) were probably those of soldiers and 23 (29 per cent) those of civilians. Among other factors complicating the determination of military status is that many civilians wear items of military clothing and many local military wear items of civilian clothing. 

       Serb authorities have identified most of the bodies. There are no reported witnesses to the deaths of any of the bodies identified. 

       Medical officers examined many of the 18 bodies recovered by UNPROFOR. The preliminary field examinations and the circumstances in which the bodies were found revealed: 

Some suspicious circumstances, e.g., two badly burned bodies were found in a concrete chicken coop that could have been used as a jail, spent casings found near bodies, one body tied up, etc.; 
Some bodies had injuries that might have occurred before death, e.g., broken legs, a broken neck, a smashed face; 
Some evidence of either pre-death torture or post-death mutilation, e.g., missing ears, eyes or fingers; and 
A perhaps higher portion of head and close range wounds than might be expected. 
       These examinations led a medical officer to place the times of death from 24 to over 96 hours before discovery of the bodies, with six having died after 14 September. 

       Serbian authorities had a doctor conduct an examination of the bodies turned over to them by the Croats and UNPROFOR. Only one full autopsy was done. UNCIVPOL describes the rest of the examinations as Â«cursoryÂ». After this, Serb authorities quickly turned over the bodies to relatives for burial. 

       The Serb authorities prepared a postmortem report and gave it to Major Holland. He passed it on to Dr. Robert Kirschner, an experienced pathologist with the independent group, Physicians for Human Rights. Dr. Kirschner‘s report states that regarding the bodies recovered by UNPROFOR, Â«there is insufficient evidence to document an execution style slayingÂ». Of those bodies turned over to the Serbs by the Croats, Â«I could find no evidence to suggest a pattern of extra-judicial executionsÂ». His opinions regarding both groups cannot exclude some murders and admit some suspicious circumstances, but in summary the evidence is ambiguous. 

       Dr. Kirschner‘s further verbal opinion was that the earlier preliminary field examinations and those conducted by a Serbian doctor are not reliable. This unreliability results from the necessarily rudimentary conditions of the field examinations, e.g., the bodies could not be washed, no x-ray equipment was available, etc. Additionally, the medical personnel involved understandably lacked forensic experience. 

       The Croats claimed in an 11 October statement to the UN in Geneva that they did not violate the laws of war during the Medak battle. They specifically cited the cases of two elderly but apparently still feisty women killed during the attack. They said one was killed while operating anti-aircraft artillery and another blew herself up with a grenade to avoid capture. 

       Most Canbat I personnel entering the Pocket witnessed the total destruction involved. Many buildings were still on fire on 16 September. There may be others with equal experiences. A Canbat I photographer took 1,400 photographs recording the destruction and the 18 recovered bodies. Much of this activity was video recorded by Canbat I personnel. 

       Besides the destruction of buildings, all witnesses saw that most livestock was killed and most personal property, including vehicles and farm equipment, was destroyed. They noted that haystacks were set on fire, and wells were polluted. Croatian forces had discarded hundreds of surgical gloves throughout the area. 

       Canbat I personnel think the bulk of the destruction in the Pocket was done on 16 September. 

       The Canbat I reports state that firewood and other incendiary materials were seen being brought into the area by the Croats. Unfortunately, the report does not identify the specific witnesses to this. 

       UN civilian employees and UNCIVPOLs also witnessed the same destruction. A UNCIVPOL team member made sketches of most buildings and detailed damage assessments of over 100 representative buildings. These assessments confirm the total devastation in the Pocket. 

       The Canadian War Crimes Investigation Team (WCIT) visited the area from 27 to 31 October and on 10 November 1993. The WCIT consisted of Major Holland and Master Corporal T. McComb, both of the Canadian Forces. The team was accompanied by Dr. Kirschner. The team took video and still photographs, interviewed some witnesses and gathered further materials and reports. The team also obtained the 1,400 photographs taken by the Canbat I photographer and arranged and conducted the videotaped assessment by Major S. Laplante (a combat engineer in the Canadian Forces serving as UNPA Sector South Engineer) and Chief Warrant Officer Bastid (an explosive ordinance disposal expert in the French Army serving with UNPROFOR HQ Zagreb) of the damage to civilian buildings. 

       The examinations of the buildings by Major Laplante and Chief Warrant Officer Bastid reveal that the buildings were either set on fire and/or demolished by charges set inside the buildings. Artillery did not cause the damage nor did tank fire, mortar shells, rocket propelled grenades, nor aerial bombardment. Canbat I personnel believed that antitank mines were used to demolish those buildings not burned. However, neither of the above witnesses could be that certain of the type of explosives used. 

       Croat authorities say that the widespread destruction in the Medak Pocket was necessitated by the Serbs using the civilian homes for barracks and the storage of ammunition. What evidence there is of military use of the civilian accommodation is ambiguous or point to its military use by Croat forces. The type of garbage (Croat cigarettes, newspapers, etc.) and the direction the builders pointed the defensive positions (towards Serb controlled areas, etc.) support usage by Croat forces.


----------



## Mud Crawler

Man my index itches just reading that rape thing.Rape and child abuses are 2 things that i can absolutly not take.I wonder what would be needed for the investigation team to conclude there was ethnic cleansing? a video footage of an actual murder?


----------



## Mud Crawler

Man my index itches just reading that rape thing.Rape and child abuses are 2 things that i can absolutly not take.I wonder what would be needed for the investigation team to conclude there was ethnic cleansing? a video footage of an actual murder? 
I heard of a Canadian unit being held hostage, in croatia or Bosnia i dont remember.Can anyone tell me a lil bit more?


----------



## noneck

I am interested in collecting information on the Medak Pocket operation of Sept 93. I was with the Bn and took part in the operation as a member of 7Pl. Does anyone else out there have any new info or anything interesting to add. It would be good to hear from former members of Charlie and Delta Coys.


----------



## noneck

Hi Travis , I was recently a member of the Seaforths and was part of Charlie coy 2VP during the Medak Pocket operation of Sept 93. It is interesting to note that the article is quite accurate, however it is embarrassing that our government has yet to recognize the actions of the members of both Charlie and Delta Coy‘s as well as AAD PL. Our government was embarrassed by Somalia so they covered the whole incident up and wanted to forget about it, it was only when a newspaper back East did an article on it that the whole incident came to light. Another interesting fact is that the line rifle companies were made up of about 70% reservists from across the country. These reservists (some of whom were PL Comds and WO‘s) did an outstanding job, we managed to hold the line and push back the Croat ethnic cleansers. However after all was said and done the reservists were knocked by Ottawa in a report that stated that they were not up to standard....Bull**** The proof is in the casualty reports, some state the Croats suffered as much as 50 KIA and 100‘s wounded for a total of 4 Canadian soldiers wounded.If you would like to find outmore drop me an E-mail.  at noneck11@hotmail.com

Cabar Feidh


----------



## kaspacanada

I have a question for you.  How come when a person is raped and that crime has been committed right in front of a Canadian soldier, he/she can do nothing at all.  I understand that you may not shoot a person for revenge as well as an unarmed person, but could you not take that person into custody of some kind?  Hold him until he can be charged?  Or is that not possible because of the dangers to the peacekeepers if they did try to do that?

  Do we simply have no authority to actually help the people we are there to protect in the first place?  We are not there to fight wars for people, but we are there to stop agression are we not?  It seems to have been not only a terrible situation but also an extremely frustrating one.  

Jeff


----------



## noneck

For Kaspacanada to answer his question. The reason that we could not do anything about it  was that we were attempting to push the Croat 9 Bde (Lika Wolves) Back. They had not finished cleaning up after their murder spree and decided to attack us in order to gain a respite.  They underestimated us and as a result we did find evidence when we searched the villages afterwards. Immediately after we managed to push them back and fhad cleared the villages the RCMP were onscene as members of UNCIVPOL to document the atrocities. It is interesting to note that most of the killing according to a UN report was carried out by Foreign Volunteers with the Croats, mostly Dutch and German.


----------



## KibbyCC

CBC aired a half hour documentry on the Medak Pocket on Remembrance day.

If your interested take a look...
Part 1 (Runs 17:32) 
Part 2 (Runs 8:38) 

,Andrew


----------



## SNoseworthy

Excellent, thanks for the link, I was looking for that since I couldn‘t see the whole thing the other night (I was watching the History Channel Docs).


----------



## Spr.Earl

Andrew were can I find the link,as I want to send it to a friend working over seas.

 Iv‘e tried from here but no luck I is computer iliterate   :blotto: 

 I figuerd it out !

 Ah I is a Engiiineeer


----------



## rounder

Just curious to know if anyone has read this? If so, and I am after feedback from guys with first hand knowledge... how accurate was this book. I noticed there were a few minor mistakes.


----------



## pbi

Never heard of it. Who wrote it, and what sources does he indicate? Cheers.


----------



## rounder

Carol Off is the author and the only source she spoke of was access to information and I believe through interviews. I highly reccommend this book. I was in the total dark as to the shit 2PPCLI went through there. Thats why I wanted to know how accurate it was.


----------



## pbi

Ok, thanks. Anybody on this board who was at Medak, or knows someone who was? Cheers


----------



## noneck

I bought and read the book today, I have to say that it's pretty accurate. I was a "MO" augmentee in 7Pl and know most of the Charlie Coy folks mentioned ( I even lived with 5 of them post tour although that phase is pretty blurry). 

Apart from the books cover, misspelling the Dragovic Rd and talking about Spiess's 50 mm machine gun, she is pretty spot on. As a rifleman I was not privy to the internal battalion politics between the MO, Padre and the CO so I found that end pretty interesting. 

It is unfortunate that the Government that sent us to Croatia was too ashamed to treat us with the respect we deserved when we returned. It was only when a series of articles on the incident came out back East many years later that the true story was publicized. As far as I am concerned the establishment can pound their CIC commendation up their combined AR*#S, it was 10 years too late. What made the trip to Winnipeg last year was the opportunity to see all the troops again... that in itself was awsome!! 

Cheers
Mark


----------



## rounder

> I was a "MO" augmentee in 7Pl and know most of the Charlie Coy folks mentioned



   Good for you and congats on a job well done....


----------



## westie47

I agree with Noneck, I served in 4 pl B Coy and happen to be good friends with noneck and some of the other guys mentioned.  I haven't had a chance to read it yet but plan on buying it this week! Since we got the CIC it seems it's getting issued to everyone that's gone somewhere. At least now we are getting some recognition. It's amazing that so many people (including service pers) who don't know anything about the tour!


----------



## HollywoodHitman

Westie47,

I think there's a few reasons that not many people seem to know about the experiences of you guys in the Medak........One of the biggest ones I think is the failure of the Mililtary and the Gov't to acknowledge the actions of the soldiers sooner. Arguably 10 years is far too long to recognize exemplary service and accomplishments. One of the other reasons may be the reluctance of you guys who were there, to talk openly about your experiences. That coupled with those who were not there knowing that it is generally not considered appropriate to ask another soldier about his experiences in combat situations unless the information is volunteered. I've known alot of you guys for years and while I know a little bit, listened closely for tidbits of lessons learned, yet I still don't think I'm comfortable asking you for more details, even though there's much to be learned. 

Young soldiers in an army that doesn't get into fights too often can only learn based on the experiences of the more seasoned soldiers. It's a catch 22 really. Privacy vs   passing on some valuable history of Canadian troops in a hostile environment and the lessons learned. 

For what it's worth I think pretty highly of what you guys did over there and I think that the CIC was long overdue. I wish it had happened for you all alot sooner, for alot of reasons.


----------



## John Nayduk

I read it and enjoyed it.  I thought it captured the feeling of being there.  I also recommend "My War Gone By, I Miss It So".  I forget the author's name but also worth a read.


----------



## bossi

pbi said:
			
		

> ... Anybody on this board who was at Medak, or knows someone who was? ...



I know Jim Calvin from Staff College (and playing hockey - I'd give him a ride to the rink, so once in a while we'd get to chat one-on-one).

My favourite story was the road block - he cracked the impasse by holding an impromptu press conference in front of it ... followed shortly thereafter by the arrival of a higher-up (from the belligerents) who immediately let them through (there's more to this story, but I won't spoil the book for all of you).

It was also interesting for me to hear a guest speaker talk about the Bihac Pocket - unfortunately I can't repeat the eye-witness accounts of atrocities in this forum, but it reinforced the importance of the Canadian Army - we defend those who can not defend themselves ...

Christmas is coming, Hannukah is upon us - there are lots of good excuses this time of year for giving the gift of a book to friends, family, or even yourself (... and remember that over 80% of Afghanistan is illiterate ...)


----------



## D-n-A

pbi said:
			
		

> Ok, thanks. Anybody on this board who was at Medak, or knows someone who was? Cheers




I Know 3 people that fought there.


----------



## Slim

I have just purchased and read the book. I thought it was excellent. Like most in the service I knew nothing of the firefight in the Medak pocket and am astounded that the govt did not acknowledge the huge sacrifice made by the troops during that tour.

I do remember seeing an interview with WO Matt Stopford talking about being poisoned...Don't know what ever became of that issue.

My hat is off to the guys and gals that fought there. 

Well done. As for the book I would make it "recommended reading"

As a matter of fact I wouldn't mind seeig it made into a film (a good one though!) as long as the CBC didn't have anything to do with it.

Slim


----------



## sapper332

Unfortunately our government back then was too weak to recognize (and publicize) the fact that this was the worst fighting Canadian troops had seen since Korea. Canada back in those days was not ready to hear that their soldiers were actually shooting their weapons at a "hostile" force... although I'm sure all that were there still refer to them as the "enemy".
   It didn't get any better in Somalia either - as the numerous firefights and contacts were quickly overshadowed by one (albeit significant) incident. It wasn't until the planes hit the Twin Towers did the Canadian public actually realise that they have a military that serves a purpose greater than sandbagging and snowshovelling.
   My hat's off to all soldiers who were in the Medak and served with distinction - those who weren't there will never know, and shouldn't judge.... wish the civvies would figure that one out - then maybe their 9-5 desk job would seem a little better when they realize that there are those of out there 24/7 who protect their rights to shuffle paper and eat donuts by the water cooler!!

Chimo.


----------



## Canuck_25

sapper332 said:
			
		

> Unfortunately our government back then was too weak to recognize (and publicize) the fact that this was the worst fighting Canadian troops had seen since Korea. Canada back in those days was not ready to hear that their soldiers were actually shooting their weapons at a "hostile" force... although I'm sure all that were there still refer to them as the "enemy".
> It didn't get any better in Somalia either - as the numerous firefights and contacts were quickly overshadowed by one (albeit significant) incident. It wasn't until the planes hit the Twin Towers did the Canadian public actually realise that they have a military that serves a purpose greater than sandbagging and snowshovelling.
> My hat's off to all soldiers who were in the Medak and served with distinction - those who weren't there will never know, and shouldn't judge.... wish the civvies would figure that one out - then maybe their 9-5 desk job would seem a little better when they realize that there are those of out there 24/7 who protect their rights to shuffle paper and eat donuts by the water cooler!!
> 
> Chimo.



 I recieved "Gohsts of Medak" as a gift for christmas. Plan on reading it soon!


----------



## a_majoor

I just received the book for Christmas, and plan to read it soon. My concern is the author, Carol Off, had quite an axe to grind against Gen Mackenzie in her previous book (The Lion, The Fox and the Eagle), and I wonder if this sort of attitude infects this book as well? Will report back when I'm done.


----------



## KevinB

She seems to ignore Mac in this one...

  It makes for a good book - fairly accurate from what I heard from those who were with the second at the time.


----------



## c4th

Getting the C in C 10 years after the fact may seem a little late, though WW1 battle honours were not awareded untill 1931 and the Canadian Volunteer Service Medal for Korea was issued in 1991. Maybe everything is relative.

in the min-1990's the common feeling among job hunting (ex) soldiers that it was better in an interview to say that you spent the last (x) number of years doing drugs than admit to service time.  

All in all 10 years is a good reunion time.  Even if anyone had thought of it earlier, from a public recognition standpoint it was better to wait untill the public was ready for it.  Now we get the added bonus of slagging the government for taking 10 years.  That is having your cake and eating it too.

No one was is Croatia for the Gong, CPSM, or C in C.  Maybe the work or the money, but not the tin.


----------



## Kurt Grant

Chris Wattie of the National Post (and a serving Reserve Officer with the GGHG in Toronto) did a review of the book.  Unfortunately, Mrs Off did not fair well in the review.  To quote Chris "What makes Ghosts of Medak ultimately unsatisfying is that Off has written nearly 300 pages on one of the most dramatic incidents in modern Canadian history and managed to make it boring."

Attached is a copy of the review.

kurt
Author "All Tigers No Donkeys"


In 1993, 600 Canadian soldiers -- half of them reservists -- fought a battle in a desolate corner of the former Yugoslavia. Outnumbered and, outgunned by their Croatian foes, they nonetheless fought them to a standstill and forced them to retreat.  In the process, they helped uncover evidence of ethnic cleansing by Croatian forces who were determined to evict ethnic Serbs before the Canadians could
enforce a shaky UN peace agreement.

The story of their battle, and the physical and mental scars that plagued the soldiers for years after, went largely unreported in Canada. Government and senior military officers, distracted by the Somalia scandal of the same year, did little to put out the story of the largest military action by Canadian troops since the Korean War and the troops returned home to little fanfare or recognition.

Eleven years later, along comes journalist Carol Off with The Ghosts of Medak Pocket: The Story of Canada's Secret War, a book that purports to be the never-before-told story of how Lieutenant-Colonel Jim Calvin and the soldiers of 2nd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry fought and suffered.

Well, not exactly.

For a secret war, Medak Pocket has been awfully conspicuous over the past eight years. And Off was far from the first one to let the "secret" out of the bag. In fact, the battle has been in the media since at least 1996 -- three years after Lt.-Col. Calvin's patchwork battalion fought off the Croatians in the
UN's Sector South.

The Ottawa Citizen's a journalist first told the story in a lengthy article which featured interviews with Lt.-Col. Calvin and most of the same soldiers that Off features in Ghosts of Medak. The article was picked up by Canadian Press and reprinted in newspapers across the country. The Toronto Star ran it on their front page.

Global TV and CTV did stories on Medak in the wake of a journalist's article and Scott Taylor, the publisher of the military magazine Esprit de Corps, wrote about it in his gadfly publication and later -- in 1998 -- devoted an entire chapter of his book, Tested Mettle, to the battle, as well as the persistent health problems suffered by the soldiers who served in the nightmarish Croatian battlefield.

In 2002, Dr. Sean Maloney and John Llambias published Chances for Peace: Canadian Soldiers in the Balkans, which exhaustively chronicled Medak, using the soldiers' own words, and remains the definitive published work on the battle.

Some secret. Yet all of this previous work on Medak is given only a passing reference by Off, and in the case of Taylor, a dismissive reference.

Still, for some Canadians, the story Off lays out in Ghosts of Medak is not a familiar one -- which should be as much a national disgrace as the shameful treatment of the veterans of the battle by the government in the years after their return -- and there is a need for a book on Medak that appeals to a broad audience.

In Ghosts, Off covers the events leading up the battle, setting the context with a brief summary of the bewilderingly byzantine history of the Balkans, and she does a reasonable job of laying out the diplomatic wheeling and dealing into which the Canadian troops were thrust in the summer of 1993.

But her description of the action itself, drawn from interviews with many of the soldiers involved, is confused and sketchy. Granted, the situation was "fluid" -- military parlance for chaotic -- but the book gives the reader little help in keeping the main players and significant troop movements straight. A few judiciously placed maps would have done wonders.

But they would not have helped overcome Off's flat prose, which manages to deflate the dramatic impact of the events she describes. A point-blank firefight involving one platoon of soldiers reads like a baseball game covered by a bored sportswriter, and the troops who should be the heart of her story never come to life for the reader as the book skips erratically from one character to another and from incident to incident.

The best passages in the book are those where Off lets the soldiers tell their own stories, including their descriptions of the horrific evidence of ethnic cleansing which Lt.-Col. Calvin and his soldiers found after
forcing the Croatians out of the Medak Pocket.

The last third of the book is the most disappointing, as Off attempts to chronicle the years of sychological and physical problems the troops faced after their return home. She seems determined to prove that the government conspired to hide evidence of the battle from the public, but comes up with no proof. Her contention that senior military officers and a Liberal government with little love for the Canadian Forces co-operated to cover up evidence of a battle that was politically inconvenient may well be true, as other military analysts have claimed, but there is nothing new in Off's discussion of the issue and no solid evidence to support her thesis.

In fact, while the military was probably happy to let the battle slip beneath the media's radar, at least one of the public affairs officers quoted in Ghosts of Medak informed me recently that they had plenty of
co-conspirators in the media. Military spokesmen on the ground in Croatia in 1993 were practically begging Canadian reporters to come see what the troops were going through, but got no takers. Government officials and generals, it seems, were not the only ones preoccupied with the Somalia scandal.

Most of Off's lengthy discussion of the health problems faced by the Croatian veterans -- including the sad and bizarre tale of Warrant Officer Matthew Stopford who was poisoned by his own troops -- amounts to little more than an inelegant synopsis of media reports and the transcript of an official military inquiry into the matter.

What makes Ghosts of Medak ultimately unsatisfying is that Off has written nearly 300 pages on one of the most dramatic incidents in modern Canadian history and managed to make it boring.

© National Post 2004


----------



## Blakey

c4th said:
			
		

> All in all 10 years is a good reunion time.



Ill say!, heh our JR's (The Patricia Arms Club) Had the single most profit in one day since its inception!  and that was back in 1972 some time.


> No one was is Croatia for the Gong, CPSM, or C in C.   Maybe the work or the money, but not the tin.



Damn Straight.


----------



## jmackenzie_15

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: pbi on October 23, 2004, 09:51:19
Ok, thanks. Anybody on this board who was at Medak, or knows someone who was? Cheers


I know one, but he's never talked about it  ???
There were alot of reservists on that tour it seems?


----------



## 043

Hi All,

You have to remember the saying "Never judge a book by its cover" on this one. I almost didn't buy it because of the cover.........the person on the front has a BFA on the rifle!!!!!!!!!! First impression was that this book would be a waste of money.........what made me buy it however was that I have a lot of friends who were over there........

It was a good read for me and I did enjoy it.


----------



## noneck

Mike you have pointed something out that was conveyed in very specific terms to Carol Off's publisher. Several of my friends and I wrote the publisher (I believe it was Random House) and stated that it was a complete disgrace to all that  served in the  2VP Battlegroup to feature an American soldier in MOPP gear on the front cover. The publisher did write back and apologised profusely , promising that future copies would be changed.

"Chances for Peace" is also a very good book, I would reccommend it to all CF members who served in the Balkans. As it provides accounts from throughout the conflict from CF members of all ranks and trades. It was also the first time that I could actually visualize C-Coy positions during the firefight as the authors Maloney and Llambias provided maps.

Cheers
Noneck


----------



## mandj

I was with the Engineer Troop attached to 2PPCLI in the Medak Pocket. I participated in the search teams through the villages and recovered bodies from the mountains. The memories and stench of the Medak Pocket will last forever.

Chimo


----------



## Mark Antony

I was with D Coy in Medak.   I finished the book last week.
While I do agree that Carol Off's portrayal has been rather emotionless with some disjointed organization, I'm quite happy with what she has done(although the lack of maps is almost inexcusable in order to properly set the stage to describe the story).
I found Tested Mettle by Scott Taylor to be a well worded work of fiction.   Ms Off, while having a few glaring time/place errors has done quite a good job at describing things.   She keeps it pretty factual rather than emotional.   I've actually read about a couple of buddies I haven't seen since pretraining in Winnipeg and I've wonder what happened to them after.   Bear in mind that this tour was one of the most significant incidents in many of these men's lives (as it was in mine and continues to be almost daily).   Ms Off only gives a small amount of words about the Maslenica Bridge mission but it was pretty much as significant as Medak was with the extremely harsh conditions (Sector south as a whole was) and the amount of fire the Coy took in those areas (Of course realizing the book is really about Medak).

One major point is for the people that were affected by it.   I've heard stories through the grapevine of the various effects on the people I knew there (including the leadership).   One thing is plain from my own experiences after the tour.   It is that here is no help from our government.   Unless you are imminently dangerous to yourself or others, there is no recourse to any strife each person may be dealing with emotionally.   Only the support of buddies and family are left for them.   For those of use who have been able to work through it, its probably the best way, but shame on our gov't for not doing more.   I still don't think they do enough.


----------



## Only One Left

I was in 10Pl.  I managed to drag myself down to the PSP for help with PTSD 10 years after the fact and those turds gave me the cold shoulder.  I had to go to the VA for any help.  Stupid thing is I'm still in.


----------



## larry Strong

Just a couple of small nitpicky points, otherwise I found it well written. I was on Roto1.

Camp Polum she states was between Pacrac and Lipik, it was just outside Daruvar, and Lilpik was on the otherside of Pacrac

She also says that the Dragovic Rd linked Pacrac and Lipik, when it actually went East of Pacrac to the town of Dragovic, hence the name.

The last one she states "....they couldn't go to the local bars and cafe's (if such things existed)..." Well I have to say that my liver would argue that fact, as the local economy was quite robust when we were there. In fact there was a Pizza joint just outside of camp, who finally started making a semi respectable pizza.


----------



## Slim

I have purchased and read the book, which I enjoyed immensly.

My hat is off to all of you who served there!

Slim


----------



## Britney Spears

and the whole battle was a lie concocted by the Canadian Army to bolster fledgeling public support for the forces after the Somalia scandal. Also a liturgy of various instances of drunken and undisciplined Canadian soldiers, many of whom were reservists, brutalizing Croatian civilians.

<a href=http://www.nsf-journal.hr/issues/v3_n3-4/10.htm>Tolstoy-esque article</a>

Go get a coffee before you start reading, it's rather lengthy.


----------



## Teddy Ruxpin

Typical inflamatory Balkans blathering...  I couldn't get through it.... :


----------



## Rfn

Well, I can tell this will be a hot topic here. Can't wait to hear from the folks with BTDT.

I was on the tour before Medak and I haven't got through the entire article and so I won't comment yet but this line shows a flaw in the author's research:



> They had armoured personnel carrier M-113, like those of the American armoured cavalry. On the transporter a steel turret was added to protect the gunner who manned the Browning .50 caliber (12,7 millimetre) machinegun....


 A turret on the M113?


----------



## Britney Spears

Yeah, there's a LOT of dodgy assumptions and flawed logic, but I'm willing to overlook the turret thing, lots of other countries used the M113 with gun shields or some kind of protection for the gunner, and since a lot of them were all painted one color (white),  it's not an unreasonable mistake to make.


----------



## Kat Stevens

I dunno where the "author" gets the idea that we chose the Serb side.  In fact, the opposite is true.  I was in Vukovar on Roto 0, or whatever it was called.  We were getting along just fine, more or less, with occupying Serb troops.  Then our beloved PM went on the air and declared the Serbs as the bad guys of the whole conflict.  Within days, the government in Belgrade had spun that into a statement that Canadian aircraft were prepared to start bombing ops at a moments notice.  Needless to say, we, being in the middle of it, became persona non grata quite quickly....

CHIMO,  Kat


----------



## TCBF

You can always tell when those people are lying - their lips are moving.

Tom


----------



## larry Strong

We started receiving gun Shields, both for the .50 and two on the sides of the cargo hatch near the end of Roto1


----------



## Britney Spears

> We started receiving gun Shields, both for the .50 and two on the sides of the cargo hatch near the end of Roto1



My sole source for my comments was a reading a few years back in "The Road To Sarajevo" By Lew Mackenzie commenting on what a dangerous job the .50 was, without gun shields. Obviously some more detailed research would have been in order, but hey it's Monday morning...


----------



## larry Strong

I hear you on the "Monday" Not criticizing, just mentioning what I remember.


----------



## HItorMiss

OK I was not there, however I do know 2 individuals who were there and I have since directed to this article..... you want to see some pissed off troops, I myself am enraged not because what the person saying is untrue, in fact many of his facts seem to be correct if you were a casual reader and not a military historian or were/know people that were there, from first hand accounts they were not sporadic small pockets of fire fights it was a push to remove the Serbs from their postions what happened was we got caught in the middle of it.


----------



## medicineman

Geez that guy is long winded.  Interesting hearng things from the other side.  Just need to average it all out I guess.  Having said that, I have a few screwed up friends from that op.

MM


----------



## pbi

I haven't read it, and I'm not going to. 

The Croatians, whether through their official spokespeople, their nationalist media, or through expatriate pressure groups here in Canada, have busily tried to deny Medak since the day it happened. The Croats learned very early in the war that the Western media was their friend, and they quickly became spin-masters. The Serbs, obtuse nitwits and xenophobes that they were, of course obligingly provided both the Croats and Western media with an endless supply of material that usually eclipsed the Croats in brutality and stupidity. However, Medak was one the Croats could not spin away, so they tried to deny it, much as they tried to deny their atrocities against Serb civilians and the killing of UN soldiers during their 1995 summer offensive that took back the Krajina: the largest ethnic cleansing in FRY until the Serbs attacked Kosovo. 

I have dealt directly with one of these Croat expat groups, known at the time (1994) as "_Mothers For Peace_" based in Thornhill, Ontario. The blatant and totally false propaganda that this group spewed would have been humorous but for the sad fact that these people were using the safe, peaceful and prosperous haven of Canada to attack the efforts of the Canadian military and to support their "own" war effort which put Canadian troops at risk. It was interesting to see how hysterical they were about Medak: obviously the whole thing was a thorn in their side (or an embarassment to whoever was guiding their efforts). Corresponding with them was like arguing with a rabid parrot.

Cheers.


----------



## TCBF

Reinforces my belief in NO DUAL CITIZEN.  If your country of birth will not release you from your National obligation, then you don't get to come here.

Tom


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Rfn said:
			
		

> Well, I can tell this will be a hot topic here. Can't wait to hear from the folks with BTDT.
> 
> I was on the tour before Medak and I haven't got through the entire article and so I won't comment yet but this line shows a flaw in the author's research:
> A turret on the M113?



Yes, the ACAV kits - US Army adopted them in the 1960s, we finally got them in the 90s....

ACAV is short for Armoured Cavalry - it included gunshields for M60s over the troop overhead hatch (which Canada didn't use), and an armoured "tub" for the commander, with a large plate in front of the .50 as additional armour for the commander.

The description in the article is accurate, and these are what Larry Strong are remembering.


----------



## Cracker Jones

Here's a copy of an interesting article written by Major General Lewis Mackenzie pertaining to the Kosovo incident. http://www.g2mil.com/Jun2004.htm


----------



## Blakey

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Yes, the ACAV kits - US Army adopted them in the 1960s, we finally got them in the 90s....
> 
> ACAV is short for Armoured Cavalry - it included gunshields for M60s over the troop overhead hatch (which Canada didn't use), and an armoured "tub" for the commander, with a large plate in front of the .50 as additional armour for the commander.
> 
> The description in the article is accurate, and these are what Larry Strong are remembering.



I concur with Mike, I was there in '93 and we had the armoured kits for the 113's.


----------



## pbi

When we took over from the R22eR in OP HARMONY in the spring of 04 in Croatia, our M113s were fitted with the ACAV shields: in my company we eventually got rid of them because they were far more trouble that they were worth: cramped, very hard to turn, and without a reliable locking system: quite often they would rotate suddenly if the vehicle tilted left or right on uneven tracks, risking injury to the gunner. If the vehicle was stopped on an angle anything out of vertical, it was almost impossible to rotate the ring. They also (along with the applique armour kit) added weight to the vehicle that strained the worn-out power plants almost beyond their limits.

Cheers.


----------



## 48Highlander

TCBF said:
			
		

> Reinforces my belief in NO DUAL CITIZEN.   If your country of birth will not release you from your National obligation, then you don't get to come here.
> 
> Tom




Don't you think that's a wee bit xenophobic?  I suppose that next you'll be telling me to "go back home"?


----------



## medicineman

It's amazing how many ex-pat Croats in Canada went back during that period.  I remember going on a 72hr pass one time and while we were going down the coast highway from Zadar to Split a minivan with Ontario tags whistled by - imagine my surprise.  As for Medak being a figment of our collective imagination, I think there are alot of soldiers (some buddies of mine) and reporters that might have to say otherwise.  This made CNN when it happened, even though there was probably a bit of a twist to it (there almost always is), I think it's safe to say that the Croats were caught stone cold and flat footed on this one.  Like a number of other instances before the battle and well afterwards, I really don't think they expected anyone to get in their faces and push back and when someone did, it kind of backfired.

     My guess this article is to rebutt "The Ghosts of Medak Pocket".

     MM


----------



## Infanteer

TCBF said:
			
		

> Reinforces my belief in NO DUAL CITIZEN.   If your country of birth will not release you from your National obligation, then you don't get to come here.



Don't know about that.  I fail to see how "Citzenship" is correlated with "Loyalty".  There were numerous examples of Americans (and probably Canadians) who had German parents and returned to Germany in WWII.  Or take John Walker Lindh, who found his way to fight for _Al Qaeda_.

We aren't going to affect peoples moral decisions within the legal framework of citzenship.


----------



## pbi

medicineman: when I was taking over my sector in the spring of 04, I was meeting each of the opposing force commanders along our line. Opposite the Croat village of Prkos, I met the local Croat HDB (home guard) battalion CO. I walked up to him and offered him a greeting in Serbo Croat: he shook my hand and replied in perfect English. After a brief conversation I found that he was a long tme resident of Toronto, and his family was still there, awaiting his return from serving the "homeland".

What bothered me about this (and what became reality in 95 during the HV offensive...) was that this guy's battalion could be ordered to attack through CANBAT lines to get at the RSK forces holding the Krajina. If he did that, his actions would endanger the lives of Canadiam soldiers, because our task was to : "_protect the Zone of Separation against military incursion_" (another ill-conceived UN mission statement with no teeth or will to back it up...) Regardless of this risk to the lives of Canadian soldiers, this guy would be free to return back to the benefits of life in Canada. IMHO we should enforce our legislation against foreign enlistment where the foreign service puts the person in opposition to Canadian soldiers.

Cheers.


----------



## medicineman

PBI - I hear what you're saying.  That's what that John Lindh fellow is going through in the US.  If you want to play mercenary like that and come up against your home countrymen, it should be just like you're at home in Canada.

I was in country in Apr - Oct 94 and we got a similar order to defend the ZOS.  The infantry guys in the OPs worked it out to something along the lines of a firefight roughly 3-5 minutes max if they were in "just give it " mode - then no more ammo.  I chuckle about it looking back on it now, but then we were a little exasperated to say the least.

MM


----------



## 48Highlander

Criminal Code
                  PART II OFFENCES AGAINST PUBLIC ORDER
                       Treason and other Offences against the Queen's Authority and Person


> *High treason*
> 
> 46. (1) Every one commits high treason who, in Canada,
> 
> (a) kills or attempts to kill Her Majesty, or does her any bodily harm tending to death or destruction, maims or wounds her, or imprisons or restrains her;
> 
> (b) levies war against Canada or does any act preparatory thereto; or
> 
> (c) assists an enemy at war with Canada, or any armed forces against whom Canadian Forces are engaged in hostilities, whether or not a state of war exists between Canada and the country whose forces they are.
> 
> *Treason*
> 
> (2) Every one commits treason who, in Canada,
> 
> (a) uses force or violence for the purpose of overthrowing the government of Canada or a province;
> 
> (b) without lawful authority, communicates or makes available to an agent of a state other than Canada, military or scientific information or any sketch, plan, model, article, note or document of a military or scientific character that he knows or ought to know may be used by that state for a purpose prejudicial to the safety or defence of Canada;
> 
> (c) conspires with any person to commit high treason or to do anything mentioned in paragraph (a);
> 
> (d) forms an intention to do anything that is high treason or that is mentioned in paragraph (a) and manifests that intention by an overt act; or
> 
> (e) conspires with any person to do anything mentioned in paragraph (b) or forms an intention to do anything mentioned in paragraph (b) and manifests that intention by an overt act.
> 
> *Canadian citizen*
> 
> (3) Notwithstanding subsection (1) or (2), a Canadian citizen or a person who owes allegiance to Her Majesty in right of Canada,
> 
> (a) commits high treason if, while in or out of Canada, he does anything mentioned in subsection (1); or
> 
> (b) commits treason if, while in or out of Canada, he does anything mentioned in subsection (2).



And then there's the PUNISHMENT



> *Punishment for high treason*
> 
> 47. (1) Every one who commits high treason is guilty of an indictable offence and shall be sentenced to imprisonment for life.
> 
> *Punishment for treason*
> 
> (2) Every one who commits treason is guilty of an indictable offence and liable
> 
> (a) to be sentenced to imprisonment for life if he is guilty of an offence under paragraph 46(2)(a), (c) or (d);
> 
> (b) to be sentenced to imprisonment for life if he is guilty of an offence under paragraph 46(2)(b) or (e) committed while a state of war exists between Canada and another country; or
> 
> (c) to be sentenced to imprisonment for a term not exceeding fourteen years if he is guilty of an offence under paragraph 46(2)(b) or (e) committed while no state of war exists between Canada and another country.
> 
> *Corroboration*
> 
> (3) No person shall be convicted of high treason or treason on the evidence of only one witness, unless the evidence of that witness is corroborated in a material particular by evidence that implicates the accused.
> 
> *Minimum punishment*
> 
> (4) For the purposes of Part XXIII, the sentence of imprisonment for life prescribed by subsection (1) is a minimum punishment.




Seems pretty clear to me.   Under the criminal code of Canada, an individual fighting for "any armed forces against whom Canadian Forces are engaged in hostilities" wether in or out of Canada, is guilty of Treason, and upon convinction will be sentenced to at MINIMUM life imprisonment.

Now how likely is it to be enforced?   Well, maybe if we voted the liberals out of office...


----------



## Infanteer

Geez PBI, you should have got the guys name and number - perhaps he could have been indicted?


----------



## Brad Sallows

Does it make a difference if the Canadian forces are operating under command of the UN?


----------



## 48Highlander

well, the relevant section is:



> assists an enemy at war with Canada, or *any armed forces against whom Canadian Forces are engaged in hostilities, whether or not a state of war exists* between Canada and the country whose forces they are.



So, unless my command of the english language is much worse than I thought, it doesn't matter who the CF troops are reporting to.


----------



## Infanteer

I would imagine that Brad was getting at the idea that someone could claim that they were engaging UN Forces wearing Blue Hats and thus were not targeting the CF specifically.

Technicalities, they suck but they tend to bite us in the ass.


----------



## pbi

> I would imagine that Brad was getting at the idea that someone could claim that they were engaging UN Forces wearing Blue Hats and thus were not targeting the CF specifically.



A "technicality" like that wouldn't cut much ice because we do not put our troops under UN command-at most the UN gets a form of OPCON-and we never cease being Canadian soldiers under Canadian command. Firing on us would be firing on Canadian soldiers.

Hey, Infanteer: I like your Napoleon Dynamite avatar. Cool movie. I wish I was just like him.  Oh--wait... I am. Gosh!

Cheers


----------



## Sandbag

I don't want to be too emotional about the whole "research paper" this gentleman has written, but IMHO it is politically motivated as most such diatribes are.  It is filled with a political agenda and many inaccuracies, but it is his opinion I guess, as well as his interpretation of events.

Just a couple of comments, one about the WO who won the medal of bravery and *was* shot at by the Croatian side.  He went in with a couple of other Patricias, at night, in the rain, prodding with a bayonet through a minefield directly in front of Croation positions.  Oh by the way, they had a UN flag with a flashlight shining on it, clearly identifying them as UN, and still shots were fired at them.  The WO, who was advanced pioneers, was in the coy as pnr platoon was not on the orbat,(nor will it ever be again for that matter).  The french soldiers had wandered into the minefield, and their minestrike  was one of a couple the attached french units suffered during that time period.

Second, the "inexperienced soldiers" had been in theatre for almost six months and had conducted many operations, as well as being fired at and shelled "accidently" by opposing forces prior to Medak.  In Sector West these same "pro-serb" soldiers had conducted patrols and cordon and searches including weapons seizures predominantly on the Serb side, up until July when the order to conduct such operations was rescinded by Sector HQ.  Then we moved down to Sector South and occupied the Serb side in the Frebat AOR.

Finally, in 2001 I had the opportunity to go back to the area while serving in Bosnia, and for an operation that did not happen, the trenchlines are still there, the fighting and vehicle runup positions are still there, the minefields are still there, the buildings are still destroyed and overgrown, and there are no people/or few living anywhere in the area.  Oh by the way, between the two front trenchlines, the Croatians have placed an old armoured vehicle with a Croatian flagpole and memorial celebrating their victory in the area during 1993.

Just my ramblings on an event that didn't happen.


----------



## medicineman

Hard to say they were only engaging "UN" forces with those big (beep)ing Canadian Flags on our shoulders.

MM


----------



## Danjanou

Just to toss a little more gas on the fire. Here's the â Å“discussionâ ? on this 'reportâ ? over at milphotos.net. Those of you were there may find the comments by the Croats on that board interesting. It Appears that it never happened and you made it all up as a â Å“medal grabâ ? to help cover up Somalia.  :

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=44019&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Oh yeah someone tell Tess that according to one of these Euro wussie nintendosnipers at that site it seems he and his buddy got tanked up New Years Eve and shot their own Iltis full of holes.

Excuse me know while I grab my helmet and hunker down.


----------



## larry Strong

I think if you were to probe it deep enough, "Hostilities" would mean engaged in a declared war, which we were not.


----------



## 48Highlander

Geeze, what part of "whether or not a state of war exists" don't you undertand?


----------



## Infanteer

Wow, checking at that link reminds of why I come to Army.ca - next time I hear a complaint about moderators I'm going to link them to militaryphotos.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Just to toss a little more gas on the fire. HereâÃ‚ Ã‚â„¢s the "discussionâÃ‚ Ã‚? on this âÃ‚ Ã‚ËœreportâÃ‚ Ã‚? over at milphotos.net. Those of you were there may find the comments by the Croats on that board interesting. It Appears that it never happened and you made it all up as a "medal grabâÃ‚ Ã‚? to help cover up Somalia.   :
> 
> http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=44019&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
> 
> Oh yeah someone tell Tess that according to one of these Euro wussie nintendosnipers at that site it seems he and his buddy got tanked up New Years Eve and shot their own Iltis full of holes.
> 
> Excuse me know while I grab my helmet and hunker down.



Hahahaha what a freaking hillarious site!!   Makes me very very happy about being here (army.ca) at home...

but woot woot, they talked about me!   I was tempted to wade in and clarify, but why taint my fingertips with that punch up..I am tempted though...

dileas 

tess


----------



## pbi

I am afraid to go to that site because at my age I might have a blood pressure episode. I used to get into it over on the Military section of History Channel with some of these insane Croat nationalist mouth-foamers(a number of whom seem to live in North America...), but I gave it up as a waste of time. Anybody who questions them is a "Serb lover". They tend to have an almost totally distorted view of what happened, and they rest smug in the knowledge that the Croat govt, ably assisted by the Croat communities in North America, waged a successful Info Ops campaign to spin the Croat ops that involved nasty things, like Medak, or the summer 1995 offensive ops in Sector North and Sector South. Just go onto Main St. North America and ask Joe Sixpack who the "bad guys" were in Yugoslavia (but don't distinguish what part of Yugoslavia-that will just confuse him because the media never realy explained that to him...). He will, I bet, answer "the Serbs". Croats win. Serbs lose.

Cheers.


----------



## Blakey

Thats exactly it Pbi, when I was over ther in '93, it was who ever needed the help they got it (serb, croat) those people do not understand that the Canadian contingent was probably the most *impartial* "unit" that was there, at least when i was there. As well every side took there "pot shots" at us, so trying to deny it after all these years just pisses me off. I wont go on a rant at this time.....


----------



## Infanteer

I remember reading a good synopsis in "Dangerous Places", probably the best "travel guide" out there:

The Serbs: Officially "the Baddies" of the war, much to their own outrage...The Serbs just feel that no one sees their point of view; but as this involves paranoid rhetoric about a global "Muslim Plot," this is not very surprising.

The Muslims: Officially "The Victims" of the Bosnian War.  Probably debatable.

The Croats:  The guys who seem to have got away with it all.


----------



## medicineman

Holy Aerobics Batman - Blakey, what's with your SpiderDude?  ;D

MM


----------



## Acorn

I actually scanned three pages of that before the red mist behind my eyes started to rise. Lucky I was able to close it before I burst a blood vessle.

Sometimes I think the worst "nationalists" are the expatriates. The difference between us and them is that while they fabricate "proofs" that certain events didn't take place, we don't deny the actions of Clayton Matchee.

Acorn


----------



## oyaguy

What I don't understand in the paper is the rationale that Medak was hyped  because the Canadian Government wanted to distract the public from Somalia. Most of what I know about Medak has come out in the last few years much less 12 years ago.


----------



## medicineman

And trying to get that information out of the government publicly was like trying ot pull hen's teeth.  They didn't want the public to know that you can get into combat on "blue" ops.

MM


----------



## Love793

.... Canada/UN/NATO and her Serb allies... Canada and her Croat/UN/NATO allies... Canada/UN/NATO and her Muslim allies... blah blah blah.  This person killed my cow 800 years ago. :

Sounds like every other official Yugo statement.


----------



## noneck

What a load of bunk this article is, it seems to have been written by the Croatian version of "Comical Ali". He must have searched high and low for any info on the subject, as he horribly perverts an interview I gave to a local newspaper prior to going to Winnipeg for the CIC Commendation Pde.

Noneck


----------



## Mineguy

Hey "B"(noneck)...good to see youÃ‚'re still alive buddy!..me too ...

Dont get to wrapped over this guys article.Or any balkans press for that matter..


----------



## GerryCan

I needed a new book for the flights over to Afghanistan and finally decided to buy The Ghosts of Medak Pocket after cheaping out for quite some time. 

I ended up finishing it along the way in no time and pretty much didn't put it down. The funny thing is, I met a guy on the plane that was also on his way to the Stan who was in 2 VP in the time. So after i was done with the book i gave him a barrage of questions about the book, some which I thought needed a little clarification. He too had started to read the book but put it down out of boredom, can't blame him I guess, but I thought it was an excellent book. It revealed a lot i didn't know, and i think more soldiers should go out of their way to get their hands on this book and get a taste of what some of our troops have been through recently...it makes a tour in Afghanistan look like a walk in the park, literally. 

Great book, and i may even pick up some of Carol Off's other books in the future.

Cheers


----------



## MdB

First of all, I have to say that this book is very instructive on a hidden, shadowed part of our Canadian (military?) history. It's a beautiful tribute to what little good have been done there and efforts of our soldiers. All that due to extensive research done by Off. Research that are impressive given the broad range of facts mentionned, the history of this part of the world and link with Canada; all that put a context around the political and military events described in the book.

The first chapter is rather misleading though. It opens with soldiers under shell fire. That's how we make contact with PPCLI soldier's deployed in Croatia. We come to understand that's this event will be described later, because after introducing some key 'characters', she comes back in time and show the history of preparation of this mix of units forming the battalion deployed. Then, she follow this preparation up to the deployment in the north and west part of Croatia. Then, she tells us about the history of Former Yugoslavia (including Croatia) and the links with Canada's Croats expats community. After that, we really dive in the story of the UN mission. Troughout this I always thought that the 18-hour firefight would be a climax in the book. Books like We Were Soldiers... and Young or that kind of military history piece book use that process: telling a bit of an event, go back in time, come back to the event. So this is why I found that rather misleading in that she passes over it in a couple of paragraphs and then we go on with the Croat-Serb ceasefire and the first time the CF soldiers enter the Croat-held area. It's about the 2/3 of the book at that time and I was really wondering what so important was to come after that and taking that long. It was the returning.

Not that the coming home wasn't important, but, to me, the climax was behind. Still, this part touched me really deeply. As a future CF member, I read and learned the bad side of NDHQ and the CF in the '90s. You have to be strong to still believe in the CF after what is reported in this book. I don't exactly know how it is now in the CF, but I know that pre- and post-deployment medical tests are conducted, that now that NDHQ and CF have been obliged to publicly recognize their responsability and that by putting the focus on the soldier, maybe the bean counter bureaucrat point of view have been reduced if not eliminated. It's full of doubts and hopes that I came out of this book and look foward to join the CF. I hope to be part of it and change it, in my own way, by bringing the best of me.

I dearly hope it becomes a mandatory reading (in the Army reading list) and, even though it's heart shattering, that people will acknowledge and remember this dark part of the canadian military history.


----------



## Mark Antony

Interesting viewpoint MdB and very valid in a storytelling context.   I also agree that she did a phenomenal amount of research.  She very clearly described the history of the conflict and how it started with an eye to having lay-persons understand.

From my perspective though I agree with the way she told the story though.  It was very important to tell the story of the firefight, but that surely isn't the end.  What was equally important (and possibly the crux of the entire story) was how the lives of everyone were affected afterward and how policies were changed to deal with it.  While seeming anticlimactic, I see the benefits to how she organized things.

Cheers,


----------



## MdB

Mark Antony said:
			
		

> It was very important to tell the story of the firefight, but that surely isn't the end.   What was equally important (and possibly the crux of the entire story) was how the lives of everyone were affected afterward and how policies were changed to deal with it.   While seeming anticlimactic, I see the benefits to how she organized things.



I agree with you. We see in some way that there's been some lessons learned implemented and that the CF don't do things like before the '90s. Haven't been of that, I would not know at all of the Medak events and that's one story the public must know.

Still, I really liked the way she told it the entire book, because you feel like being there, as a tour with her and visiting all those extraordinary characters. But the battle itself went in a flash, dig in, position the firebase, position of medic 50 meters back, the fight itself, or fights is better. Ranging from 20 minutes to two hours (if I remember well), but all we know of it is the retreat of the firebase, the fight in the trenches (that saved lives) and that it's been several fights over a total of 16 hours. Well, I would have had more details. I understand that's not the point, but given the books opens on the incidents...

Ah, and another thing I didn't mentionned. I'm pretty visual and like to see maps and track movements on it. I would have liked more maps, maybe 1-2 more and with more infos on it... just glitches in my mind.

But overall, this is a MUST.


----------



## Mark Antony

The lack of maps is almost inexcusable.  I think with a military context in any book a map would be a must or much of the story simply couldn't be understood.  Had it not been for her excellent content, her book would surely have failed to meet its point.

Let that be a lesson for future military book writers....


----------



## noneck

If you are looking for maps on the Medak Pocket then have a look at, CHANCES FOR PEACE-Canadian Soldiers in the Balkans, 1992-1995 An Oral history. by Sean M. Maloney and John Llambias. It has maps of the operation down to the indivual tracks of 8 Pl. The book itself is an excellent read, I believe I picked up my copy for $35.00 at Chapters.

Noneck


----------



## MdB

I can understand up to a certain point that Off or the publisher failed to put some really precise maps in the book. This is no Sean Maloney or David Bercuson or Bernd Horn, who are either military historian, scholar or in the military.

Thanks for the tip.


----------



## Fraser.g

larry Strong said:
			
		

> Just a couple of small nitpicky points, otherwise I found it well written. I was on Roto1.
> 
> Camp Polum she states was between Pacrac and Lipik, it was just outside Daruvar, and Lilpik was on the otherside of Pacrac
> 
> She also says that the Dragovic Rd linked Pacrac and Lipik, when it actually went East of Pacrac to the town of Dragovic, hence the name.
> 
> The last one she states "....they couldn't go to the local bars and cafe's (if such things existed)..." Well I have to say that my liver would argue that fact, as the local economy was quite robust when we were there. In fact there was a Pizza joint just outside of camp, who finally started making a semi respectable pizza.



I was on ROTO 1 with you, Except I was down with the Engineers in Daruvar proper. All I gotta say is that there was no shortage of local alcohol nor Twins Pizza when we were in camp.Unfortunately all the beer was Pivo and you have not had a hang over until you have had a pivo hang over.

As for knowing people that were in the pocket, one is working in the office across the hall from me right now.

GF

Edit for spelling


----------



## noneck

;D ;D Man those names bring back memories Twins Pizza and PiPi's Disco....fond memories of Darauvar Roto 2. Every couple of months the Pl WO would take us into Camp Polom from Toranj, on a maintenance day run and give us a few hours in Darauvar. I still have all the pirated euro trash 90's tapes that I bought there. The night would usually end with the 10 or 12 of us in the back of the ML chugging homebrew rakija on the way home...thank god I was only 20 at the time I'd never recover from those nights these days!!!

Noneck


----------



## rayvermette

Hi,

The link below is to a photo taken on September 28th, 1993 near the town of Licki Citluk in the Medak Pocket.  The guys in the photo are from 10 platoon, D Coy, 2PPCLI.  I think someone from 2PPCLI HQ took it; a medic maybe?  Any idea who the photographer might be or how I might find him?  I would like to get a (better) reproduction of this photo.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7125/1129/1600/image1118.jpg

Thanks in advance for your help and please accept my apologies if I posted in the wrong forum -- my first time posting.

Thanks,

Ray Vermette


----------



## claybot

As a former soldier now reservist I routinely do searches on Medak Pocket since I was there and do to other circumstances I'm still involved with it.
On my lastest search I came across this forum and decided to reply in the hopes I can clarify a few points that others have been discussing.
"Tested Mettle" by Scott Taylor intresting read not a great read if you know some of the facts. I talked with Scott Taylor about this during his book tour when I was stationed in Gagetown. I talked with him because I was concerned about the misleading statements he made in his book about the Sweep Teams 

"Rain fell steadily through the night as those few soldiers who had deployed into no-man's-land waited for a possible counter-attack from either Serbs or Croats. Finally, on the drizzly morning of Sept. 17, teams of UN civilian police arrived to probe the smouldering ruins for murder victims. 

Rotting corpses lying out in the open were catalogued, then turned over to the peacekeepers for burial"

These Teams of UN Civilian Police only sort of exisited.

Reality is the Team cocnsited of a Canadian Medical Doctor (1), UN Civilan Police (1), photographer, padre plus his driver, body bag detail (1 PPCLI Mortar Platoon), 1 section of Medical pers support staff all led my Maj King and MWO Cameron. All military except for the (1) UNCIVPOL.
Scott Taylor does not mention this as he never bothered to interview anyone about this portion. He said after 60-90 interviews on Medak he had enough info.

Next it seems the story of the Battle of the Medak Pocket gets better every time people discuss it in case the victims get younger and yougner the longer the story goes on as in this example

1. French reconnaissance troops and the Canadian command element pushed up the valley and soon began to find bodies of Serb civilians, some already decomposing, others freshly slaughtered. In one village, Calvin saw the bodies of two young girls who had been repeatedly raped, tied t ochairs and then set on fire. 

2. Some suspicious circumstances, e.g., two badly burned bodies were found in a concrete chicken coop that could have been used as a jail, spent casings found near bodies, one body tied up, etc.; 

Both points 1 and 2 refer to the same incident when the investigation was first conducted the bodies were thought to be mother (50-60) and daughter (30-40). Other UN documents list them as sisters but place their age at 50+.

But every time these two victims are talked about they get younger makes the story sound better I guess.

One other point off topic that should be clarified, the reason we had so many reservists is that the previous roto (3PPCLI) neede four companies and took our Charlie Company. Which left us with two rifle companies for our tour. So we needed all those reservists which was a good thing as they brought a lot of talents to the table. One guy pretty well rebuilt every bunker in A companies AOR due to his construction skills.

I've worked with reservists on three tours Cyprus Croatia and Bosnia great people to work with, and now I too am a reservist Class A


----------



## c4th

None of that was as good as gate, sweeping the road, or pounding track


----------



## noneck

_None of that was as good as gate, sweeping the road, or pounding track None of that was as good as gate, sweeping the road, or pounding track _ 

Yeah, the Toranj Municpal Workers Union Local # 7 (TMWU#7). Good seeing you on the wekend Marty even though it was for Smokey's service.

Noneck


----------



## rayvermette

Just checked in on this thread and notice the link has been denied.  Here's another one -- hopefully this one won't get pulled:








Here's a link to the page it's on.  Hopefully this will work if the direct link doesn't:

http://flickr.com/photos/15792904@N00/35683472/

Thanks,

Ray


----------



## noneck

It could have been Cpl. Gomm, he was the Bn photographer on our tour.  I believe he is still in 2VP as a MCpl, at least he was at the CIC Pde in Winnipeg.

Hope this helps
Noneck


----------



## Rifleman62

Cpl Gomn is a Class A Reserest working for 38 CBG. I will ask him if he took the photo and get back to you here.


----------



## Infanteer

He posts on this site - I've let him know about this thread.


----------



## rayvermette

I actually spoke with Cpl Gomm late last year.  He took another photo I was searching for, but not this one.  Might have been a medic, someone from 2PPCLI HQ, or D Company.

Thanks in advance.

Ray


----------



## claybot

I've yet to read the book, not sure if I want to. A friend who was in the pocket with me read it and even though it was a good book it brought back a lot of memories he was trying to forget. Not sure I want those memories to resurface.

To me it was a great tour for 4 1/2 months.

With the rack of medals I got over 20 years of service, my tour of Croatia/Medak Pocket is the only one that counts. I've talked with ohters who served on the same tour and they feel the same way.


----------



## legare

I'm very interested about what you are discussing in this forum because I'm presently doing researches about the Medak Pocket Battle and plan to go in Croatia next year.  I have already came into contact with people who were there and read articles and books I found (Carol Off, Nolan/Taylor), but I want to have as many primary sources as possible to understand everything right:  would you agree to answer some of my questions on this forum or by email ?


----------



## claybot

Yes, I've sent you an email on this


----------



## HollywoodHitman

Silcox......

There are several guys in the Regiment who were there in the Medak....Be patient, hang around the mess a little bit and you're likely to hear a little about it.......

There are some, who if you ask in a certain way, will discuss some of their experiences there, at that time. Express some curiosity at the events there, and there may be someone in the Unit who might help ease some of your curiosity.

TM


----------



## Blakey

HollywoodHitman said:
			
		

> Silcox......



You are aware that the original poster posted this message over 5 years ago...right?  ;D


----------



## HollywoodHitman

Ok, where's my AK and clown suit? I saw a name I recognize, and there ya go......
 :threat:

 ;D


----------



## Glorified Ape

I bought the book for my mom this past Christmas (hadn't read it when I gave it to her but was lucky enough to have a WO who was at Medak as a guest speaker at my IAP graduation and thought it might be a good book for my mom, as she didn't know much [like most Canadians] about the CF). 

It turned out to be a mixed blessing gift - while she respected the hell out of the troops after reading the book (not that she didn't respect the CF prior to that), she was absolutely irate over the treatment they received, the UN's ineptitude, and all the other detestable crap that went on - including the quasi-blackout on the press coverage. I think she has even more misgivings about my joining the CF than she did before. 

When I got to read it, I thought it was great, though I don't know anyone who was there nor knew much about the situation other than what little I could find about it on the net and what was recounted by our guest speaker. I've recommended it to some people.


----------



## LF(CMO)

As per the "Medak Pocket" see "Century of Service: The History of the SALH" page 236 uniforms of the SALH..... " M/Cpl., Combat Dress, Serving with UNPROFOR, Medak Pocket, Croatia, 1993" by Donald Graves.  ( A close friend of mine was involved in the research)

 I'm curious as to the casualties, KIA, WIA etc.?  That is what will give its place in history (unfortunately) more than anything else!


----------



## Infanteer

LF(CMO) said:
			
		

> I'm curious as to the casualties, KIA, WIA etc.?   That is what will give its place in history (unfortunately) more than anything else!



A quick scan of Lee Windsor's article in the Army Doctrine and Training Bulletin states that 16 Croatian KIA were found.  How many killed and wounded were removed is another matter (I forget what the Croatian government gave as figures).

I seem to remember that the Canadian force took 4 WIA, but I can't give you a definate source.


----------



## LF(CMO)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> A quick scan of Lee Windsor's article in the Army Doctrine and Training Bulletin states that 16 Croatian KIA were found.   How many killed and wounded were removed is another matter (I forget what the Croatian government gave as figures).
> 
> I seem to remember that the Canadian force took 4 WIA, but I can't give you a definate source.



 Thanks, I'll check that.  Be sure to check the illustration in the "History of the SALH"  It's good!  Also on page 238 there is a photo of four LH personnel on a knocked out Serbian Tank.  BTW:  A number of SALH are now preparing to deploy to Afgan.


----------



## sjm

I've never been a fan of military history, so I guess the Boer war will be breaking out in my back yard anytime now.

But seriously, I heard of the "minor altercation" a very short while (weeks) after it happened.  The details of the events that surrounded the incident have generally eluded me.  I just finished the book and I recommend it highly.  The history of the region is quite fascinating and I felt that Carol Off gave a fairly impartial view of the bigger picture.  She spread out the blame pretty evenly.  For those that were there, I salute you, hauling decaying corpses is not on my top ten list of things to do.

My favourite quote from the book "Real men don't do MOOTWA." What an ass.

I don't want to start a rant about bin rats again but who really cares how much a body bag costs, was he selling them on E-bay or something.

Again, to the troops that were there, you were and still are appreciated.  The truth is out there, it just takes a while to surface sometimes.


----------



## claybot

Infanteer said:
			
		

> A quick scan of Lee Windsor's article in the Army Doctrine and Training Bulletin states that 16 Croatian KIA were found.   How many killed and wounded were removed is another matter (I forget what the Croatian government gave as figures).
> 
> I seem to remember that the Canadian force took 4 WIA, but I can't give you a definate source.



Lee Windsorsarticle is good but the part about _"The bodies recovered included those of two young women found in a basement. They had apparently been tied up, shot and then doused with gasoline and burned."_ is part of the problem that finds it way into MEDAK.
When we found these bodies the MO said it looked like a mother and daughter but no one was sure, according to UN documents these to women were in their 60's. 
Every time I hear the story of the operation these two women get younger and younger, the last time I heard it they were 14. I've never understood why this is done.
There was no way except by an autopsy to find out how old these women were when we were there they were burnt beyond any form of recognition.


----------



## Infanteer

Infanteer said:
			
		

> A quick scan of Lee Windsor's article in the Army Doctrine and Training Bulletin states that 16 Croatian KIA were found.   How many killed and wounded were removed is another matter (I forget what the Croatian government gave as figures).
> 
> I seem to remember that the Canadian force took 4 WIA, but I can't give you a definate source.



Opps, my bad.  The article says that 16 Serb bodies were found following Croat pull back.  The article makes no mention of Croat casualties from the battle.

The article also mentions that the Canadians took the 4WIA during an intense barrage that followed the occupation of the town of Medak.


----------



## Unknown C/S

While I have not yet read "Ghosts" I have read The Lion the Fox and the Eagle. Carol Off does not pretend to be a soldier. (as some journalists try) Her writing style conveys a story that most of the population will understand. (Soldiers are usually more critical of military matters be it in print, or on screen.)
   I have spoken with, and met Ms. Off while deployed in Bosnia and again in Macedonia . I was left with impression that she is both professional and unpretentious. She was generally concerned about the little thing in a soldiers life. When she took time and asked the soldiers "how are things?" she really wanted to know and actually waited for an answer.
   I have met other media types that sweep into camps overseas like the second comming and want the troops to feel honoured if they stop to talk to them.
   I shall attempt to purchase a copy of her book. 
   To those who were destined to experience the event first hand, I imagine the the ghosts of Medak will continue to haunt them. For that reason, first hand accounts may be a long time comming on this site.
   We, as soldiers, agree to fullfill our commitment to the CF upon joining. The rucksack gets packed and off we go, no complaints. (well maybe a few.... :crybaby: lol) It is a shame that the politicians do not feel obligated to respect/acknowledge the task if it is not deemed to be "a warm and fuzzy story" or accept responsibility for placing them in that type of situation.
  My respect and sympathy go out to those soldiers. At least Carol Off did not just let the story die.


----------



## Maritime_Matt

Read "Ghosts...", as well as "The Lion, the Fox, and the Eagle" within the same week- I haven't read two books this quick since University. Ms. Off is a brilliant journalist. These two books are both excellent.


----------



## zeke_wpg

Read it quite a while ago, but it was a good read.. Funny re-remembering stuff that happened..


----------



## Guest

I was told there was a documentary on the medak pocket done by W5 I am unable to locatea link to this. I am interested in a video documentary that was mentioned on this program . My son in law was in this Battle .If anyone can direct me in the right direction it would be appreciated . My e-mail is peimom17@hotmail.com. Thanks


----------



## Mineguy

Nope sorry guys, I had to delete this one after writing it as ive decided its to sensitve to disscuss with normal members. Noneck, we both know each other well (if this is the Engr Noneck) id love to tell you personally back home in detail sometime we are both home again at the same time as I know you well what ive Heard from people I know who were on the recieviing end of the PPLCI which isnt in any of these books over the past years from "inside" croatia. It will confirm or deny alot of true and untrue things you may have heard but its nothing to change whats known about the atrocities, just alot of background info not in this book or reported properly from all sides (i.e croat one also) without bias. 

Pm me when you get a chance, but im in Iraq So I might not get back fast...


----------



## McG

I just saw the paperback in stores.  It seems critism about the first cover was heard:






Still not a Canadian soldier though.


----------



## Cannonfodder

Just stumbled upon this board .I've been out of the army for 8 years and served 2 tours in Croatia one with C company 1 PPCLI and the other with 9 Platoon C Company 2 PPCLI. I have not read the book but I am going to pick it up tomorrow at Chapters.Our Platoon House was in Medak and recieved heavy shelling.Basically the Serb land position resembled two fingers shaped like a v on a map with medak at the base of the v.
  On the night of Sept 8th I watched with Adrian Tomson  the spectacular shelling of the villages of the left finger  in the distance.By 5 when i was awoken for my security picket things were very quiet I finished my shift  awoke Tranelus a Lithuanian giant for his shift.I crawled into my sleeping bag and started to go to sleep when I heard a shell cut through the air followed by the impact.Immediatley  we were all awake trying to get dressed and grab our rifles .Adrian had immediatley jumped of his cot and ran to one of the firing ports with his C9 in the buff.We were all crowded in the front room when the second barrage came.

   It is hard to explain the feelings that go through your mind ,your pulse races after the impact misses you start to calm down then you hear the report in the distance your heart races.Basically your body is getting pulses of adrenelin it really starts to wear on you after a short period of time.I was thinking what the f*$k am I doing here only 4 weeks till we go home and this crap has to start.
   Our houses location was surrounded by the serb brigade hq to our north, an OP to our south and a train station to our east.It was no wonder we were getting a  crap kicking.Mr Green reported the drama to our Company Hq and we were given a patronizing reponse by our OPS OfficerXXXXXXXXXXXXX pound for pound one of the most aragant inept officers I have ever had the displeasure of working for] that it was normal activity for this area.Sorry for the rant I havent talked about this for awhile  and sometimes one gets angry when regressing about past events.


(Edited by Moderator, insulting identification of serving pers removed.)


----------



## Mineguy

"Lee Windsorsarticle is good but the part about "The bodies recovered included those of two young women found in a basement. They had apparently been tied up, shot and then doused with gasoline and burned." is part of the problem that finds it way into MEDAK.
When we found these bodies the MO said it looked like a mother and daughter but no one was sure, according to UN documents these to women were in their 60's. 
Every time I hear the story of the operation these two women get younger and younger, the last time I heard it they were 14. I've never understood why this is done.
There was no way except by an autopsy to find out how old these women were when we were there they were burnt beyond any form of recognition"

I agree these reports are flawed and some are downright inaccurate. Having half a croatian family myself I have tried to see this from all angles. I have a freind who was listed on these UN "perpetrators of crimes documents" that can be found online on one of these UN docs listed along with another international names supposedly involved with medak. These two were defintily nowhere near the area despite the statements of these docs -with one not even IN the balkans geographical region for 1.5 years at that point! So these Un docs are not completely accurate, however Much of the evidence gathered by the RCMP and the CF has been thankfully  very accurate to provide evidence which will help the hague bring justice where its due and despite this many people abroad seem to will keep genralizing about croatians and the other two sides and who was more evil etc etc- I can say every  croatian  i have met who really knows about this action agrees that these people commiting crimes  as listed above with the two murders mentioned did a very evil and unessecary thing over and above their mission of the day. I dont think these books will ever be 100%accurate and most people never will have the oppurtunity to experience that from outside the box without being on one or the other side in opinion which is fair. This misinterpretation is most likley because alot of evidence came from a sole Serbian source base which is obvious when you read them as they were the victims.And There will be for sure more people from the croatian press to write all sorts of things about what they belive -this which routinly ive seen peope here take offence to which is fair given their experiences. There are a few basic things which I havent seen many cdn soldiers or books at all  view without bias or at least if they do i have never heard or read it. Croatia at this time in 1993 was a recgognized country in the world not a breakup undefined state although all of this was seen as one big civil war ( and is interpreted as such) and this land was therefore "taken-occupied" in direct contravention of international law by krajina rebel serbs who had been offered peaceful integration into croatia several times since 1991. The operation in medak and its sole purpose was not ethinc cleansing and destruction of the towns (although this is what happened in excess to the mission) when these guys got out of hand with personal vengence. The purpose of the operation was to silence the big guns which had pounded Gospic and area since 1991 so to speak round the clock like in sarajevo and caused much damage and suffering to civilians. When the gospic bde was allowed to go in first this is why this balkans tit for tat retalition took place. These types of crimes do not go unnoticed as There have been around 1000 plus war crimes trails within croatia since the war for example with no less than 728 guilty convictions! So theres a whole new world of another half of this story and real people to describe it in a diffrent light if you have the pleasure to hear it thats not in these books.


----------



## TN2IC

I am in middle of reading the book when I have time...as far as I got around page 140 something... it has been good read. Going on how the Former Yugo got into this spot... and who was what and where. I can't wait to finsh the book.  ;D


----------



## TN2IC

Okay... done the book... sorry to bump this.... but it was one hell of a good book. I enjoy each page I read...


----------



## Cannonfodder

Fairly interesting book brought back a lot of memories good and bad . Showed decisively that there were no good guys in the FRY . But what makes me laugh is that the whole lot  Serbs ,Croats and Muslims are all the decendants of Turkish invaders . Kind of like the Beverly Hillbillys  with AK 47s and T 54 - 55s , instead of Jeb it was  Milos .


----------



## 3rd Herd

Cannon: Eastern European History Crse Notes

1)Like the Croats, the Serbs are believed to be a purely Slavic people who originated in the Ukraine. 

2)Most of the Muslim Slavs and Albanians converted to Islam in the early stages of Ottoman occupation to gain the higher social status that Ottoman policy afforded to converts. Seems like a good idea to me

3)Hillbillynoun) disparaging term for an unsophisticated person. 

The Last Laugh


----------



## gnplummer421

Greetings,

I just finished reading "The ghosts of medak pocket". I know very little about this part of the Balkan conflict. Are there any members out there who can share some experiences from that mission?

Bob


----------



## blueboy

You might want to ask "noneck" about that little piece of CDN history....I believe he was there.


----------



## gnplummer421

I finished reading this book and to be honest, I had no idea that was happening in the Balkans. I left Germany in 1991, and I must have missed the news about it, but then the book did state that The government wanted to keep things quiet because of the Somali situation. I wonder about all the guys that scattered after the mission. I know that it is a sensitive issue to ask someone who was there to talk about it, but I do want to know whether the military and/or the Government is taking care of any emotional/social or phychological problems some of these soldiers might be experiencing.

Thoughts/comments?

Gnplummer421


----------



## Mineguy

"A quick scan of Lee Windsor's article in the Army Doctrine and Training Bulletin states that 16 Croatian KIA were found.   How many killed and wounded were removed is another matter (I forget what the Croatian government gave as figures)."

Ill get the answer on that for you when i can from a medak veteran of 9th bde (neighbor)! I just need to think of "how" and "when" to ask that politley.....Wait out!



I always laugh at these people who say where everybody is from over here,History is my hobby and im still amazed from what i hear from historian sover here in my research.  The facts were of what happened in the balkans through history( which you have to realize were purposly tailored by  who was the ruling victor of the period remains now taken as fact in books...post 1945 yugo being a prime example), and the authors of these one sided opinions on what went on over here in the war and who was bad and who wasnt. The west is very much just as guilty killing many people as well with bad policey and late decisons! ....This place is and always will be crazy and full of misinformation so you really have no clear picture of whats going on! ???


I am living in croatia and Ive been right into the DNA origin of croats just out of interest.There have been some pretty extenisve studies done that show why on the genetic level everybody is who they are after all the mixing. When you get into it that far you see after the results are shown that croatians are most likley from the carpathian mountains area bordering ukriane as was said. The serbs are another slavic tribe who showed up later and gradually came down into these parts and started claiming this and that.There were some theories which said croats were from iran and afghanistan and there is even a pure DNA blood line in dalmatia on some islands which is isolated back to pre historic times, but this has no relation to the mainland croats.Some areas have and remain pure croat dna, nothing to do with being decednats of turkish invaders.Some areas were invaded and DNA is mixed, some remain pure to this day. The ottoman empire advance was thankfully stopped around sisak, made it into bosnia and swung around the top in hungary getting close to vienna but were stopped by croats. In a sense this stopping them saved the rest of europe and you very guys reading this a few hundred years down the road. Thus you have people in Bosnia today who are muslim because they converted under duress, mixed serbs croats and muslims included. Then you have pockets like hercegovina which i must add in this war was protected by a Canadian croat general former PPCLI and FFL . Croatia really once existed all the way into present day serbia long before the kingdom of yugoslavia or ndh propaganda said that to gather support ( this is where you get muslims who see themselves as muslim croats) and these lands were gradulally lost to serbs and muslims which addedd all the pockets you see today..and added some of the tensions you see today!

On another side note our veterans here are really treated like crap and they have absolutley no support system like in canada.No benefits and if they get them its squat money and thats if it even shows up!  We loose around 100 a month to suicide! In this video from thompson who is married to a canadian girl non croat -it reaches out to people to take care of their buddies after all the battle they been through together.I guess its no diffrent anywhere after!

http://media.putfile.com/Thompson-Prijatelji

http://www.durham.net/facts/crogen/newsltr9.html


----------



## galvanizer

When I read all these comments about Medak situation makes me laugh. This story is pure lie.
I'm from Gospic so these "soldiers" who claim they were there should know about it. In 1992. UN peacekeepers arrived in Croatia. UNPA were created and one of duties of peace keepers was to move all heavy weapons from certain places. One of those was Medak from which Gospic was shelled day nad night. Canadians never did their job. So Cro forces after  a year has passed and Canadins did nothing entered the place and leveled it and returned to starting position.  No clash with Canadian force happend. There were no Croats wounded or killed in this "clash" . If it really happend what ammo were you using? snowballs?This clash is pure Canadian sci-fi story to cover 2 things. 

1. That they didn't do their job and removed Serbian artillery which from their arrival to this action from this position fired some 3000 grenades.

2. That Croat retaliation was was cause by reason no.1

The real truth is that nothing happend and there is nothing to be proud of.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Dobar Dan and Thank you for the commentary.

I am sure we are now all aware of what really happened, due to your enlightenment.  Those of us that served in your beloved country, feel honored in being called liars.  Whether it was in the medak or elsewhere. Please Okrenite se and go back to the peaceful home. 

And, take you flights of fancy elsewhere...As we will not take the abuse, after we laid down our lives to offer peace for yours....

dileas

tess


----------



## eyre

> When I read all these comments about Medak situation makes me laugh. This story is pure lie.



Galvanizer, I find denial amongst your countrymen very common when it comes to your embracing of ethnic war.  You are not the first to deny these atrocities happened.  

My platoon was the first into the village of Licki Citluk, perhaps the largest village in the Medak pocket, and saw first-hand the after-effects of what your proud soldiers did.  In fact, they were still there and laughing when we arrived as the village burned around us.  The book has the framework of the story correct.  Your soldiers had fire returned upon them and were killed.  I am currently serving with some that did the killing.

Several years ago, while serving in Bosnia, I had a good conversation with one of your military psychologists regarding combat stress.  Without prompting he specifically mentioned the problems your soldiers were having after this Medak operation.  Dave Grossman, in _On Killing_, discusses the psychological trauma of committing atrocities.  Here it is manifest.



> Canadians never did their job. So Cro forces after  a year has passed and Canadins did nothing


 We only arrived in Sector South in Jul 93, six to eight weeks before the Medak operation began.



> The real truth is that nothing happend and there is nothing to be proud of.


Three years ago I served with a Croat officer while we were both studying in the US.  At first he denied your country's embrace of ethnic cleansing.  Then, after several months, and many beer, denial turned to admission.  You and your country must get over its dark past, because if you don't, you will never truly connect with globalized civilization.  Get over the past, admit your historical faults, and drive on.


----------



## galvanizer

Where did I say Medacki dzep didn't happend??? I precisely said that Canadian clash with Croat soldiers is a pure lie. And that can be seen in yours CBC documentary.  The biggest lie is yours claim that we accused you for wounding or killing 27 Croat soldiers.

You have nothing to be proud of and you know it.

Yes you arrived six weeks before but UN generaly arrived 1.5 years before.

Now a question:
 Was your job to remove serbs artilery??? Did you do it???

Now you can continue twisting the truth and my statments.


----------



## galvanizer

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Dobar Dan and Thank you for the commentary.
> 
> I am sure we are now all aware of what really happened, due to your enlightenment.  Those of us that served in your beloved country, feel honored in being called liars.  Whether it was in the medak or elsewhere. Please Okrenite se and go back to the peaceful home.
> 
> And, take you flights of fancy elsewhere...As we will not take the abuse, after we laid down our lives to offer peace for yours....
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess



You laid your lives???

Hwo was killed or wounded???


----------



## Mineguy

Galvanizer,

The Domobrans liberated these territories which was their right and within the law to do so which some people find hard to accept. BUT this was not always done in the opinion of the outside world in the most legal way and as we know on the other hand croatia never got a fair shake from day one as it was. Croatia had to defend itself and take back what was theirs and im sure other countries pointing fingers at croatian for defending their home and soverignty have also done in past wars but nobody questions these people now on their past. As we both know it wasnt  a proffessional style army and there were some things going on which werent right and the retaliation that goes on around here for centuries. Its the law of the wild in our parts, it might not be right but we seem to see it continue and people dont get any smarter. Some body from Velebita (gospic) like you which is a hard and tough proud people would know that more then anyone else! Theres no doubt in the mind of any croatians I know even those who were there in medak in 9 bde that this happened. 

Its no "story" , it really happened and there was a clash. We have to accept and realize that it was a dirty war, not  a normal one,  which was obvious and people who got out of hand need to be brought to justice or answer to prove themselves if we want to be part of the rest of the world and the eu. On the other hand im fully aware as you are of who started this war and what they on the croat side were trying to achieve in the operation which was stop shells from falling on you from the artillery at medak after many attempts to rectify this peacefully and politically. Let the guys go to trail like ante gotovina now and answer, ante gotovina on trail is a badge of honour for croatia because it shows they stood up as a country to be counted which costed lives which cant be forgotten something carla del ponte cant understand fully. If theyre not guilty then all is ok, thats the purpose of the court. But we cant erase fact and evidence until proven FAIRLY in a modern court.

These guys from Canada came as volunteers to try and help the situation. While many UN forces got  a bad repuatation for lack of action, and definitly the people at the very top of unprofor!!... the average un soldier were very good and brave guys who helped croatia with small and big unnoticed acts. Many of these acts are only known to people who witnessed them.The canadians here actually did what it took to preform thier mission where many other UN brigades failed, shall i say more about the dutch? In my opinion the guys who came as peacekeepers are just as brave in coming to help in their own mission as the Canadian international volunteers who came for the hv and hvo, hos to defend their land. We need to respect our veterans and listen to them from both sides, and open disscussion is the sole purpose of a forum.


----------



## the 48th regulator

galvanizer said:
			
		

> You laid your lives???
> 
> Hwo was killed or wounded???



Mcpl Mark Robert Isfeld 

Corporal Daniel Gunther 

Me. I was Severly wounded..

December 31st, 1994

Or is that a lie too?

Shame on you for coming here and stating what you have said....go back to your other blog site....as this is not the first time you have trolled here..Dobar Dan pal..

dileas

tess


----------



## galvanizer

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Mcpl Mark Robert Isfeld
> 
> Corporal Daniel Gunther
> 
> Me. I was Severly wounded..
> 
> December 31st, 1994
> 
> Or is that a lie too?
> 
> Shame on you for coming here and stating what you have said....go back to your other blog site....as this is not the first time you have trolled here..Dobar Dan pal..
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess



You've mitakened me with someone else.


----------



## muskrat89

galvanizer - without facts or substantiation, your comments are simply more rhetoric. You've offered your point, and made your opinion known. You knew this discussion would be inflammatory, and deliberately posting inflammatory comments is against the conduct guidelines. I see no thoughtful debate here. If that's not going to happen, then move along and rant on someone else's forum.

Army.ca Staff


----------



## galvanizer

@ LurkingKuna

The clash especcialy the story that canadians pushed us back is a lie.
fact was that our Army in those days had many shaky caracters. But this was because, as you said we didn't have it fair from the start. We had no army while JNA( at that time 5th in Europe) sided on Serbs side. To top it all we had embargo on wepons import.Everyone was saing taht we'll be done in 2 weeks but we stood our grond. So we took every hand that was willing to help. Even Mandela: " when we were sinking in living mud we took every hand that was willing to help". In Croatian situation this ment some caracters who had criminal history cause they could suply wepons  by their connections.
Medak as I said before happend because Un(canadians included) did nothing to stop serbian sheling of Gospic.3000 shels was dropped on Gospic from Un arrival to this action. We simply had it enogh. I never said that shit didn't happend baut I've said that "your" version is a imagend.

UN has left a shameful mark in Balkans. Beggining with Vukovar situation ending with Srebrenica. And Croats supported by Bill Clinton did Un job and saved Bihac from becoming another Srebrenica.

As i said I'm from Gospic. My father was killed in 1991. my brother lost his leg during Maslenica action and I've joined in just few months before tis action. To be precised end of May. So i know what I'm talking about.


----------



## galvanizer

muskrat89 said:
			
		

> galvanizer - without facts or substantiation, your comments are simply more rhetoric. You've offered your point, and made your opinion known. You knew this discussion would be inflammatory, and deliberately posting inflammatory comments is against the conduct guidelines. I see no thoughtful debate here. If that's not going to happen, then move along and rant on someone else's forum.
> 
> Army.ca Staff



 I diodn't see anyone else providing any evidences that prove Canadian story. If saying the truth that is in conflict wiith your fact I apologise 'cause I tougt that this is democracy.


----------



## Mineguy

Edited to get to the point. 

Well, Im not going to argue any more but there was definitly a "fight!"....now who pushed who or who didnt is a point to argue on both sides which is the norm I guess!.....does the evidence taken from the UN side matchup with the version of events from the croatian side we could go on forever!

You know its just like Miroslav Skoro sings "....The truth is a deep ocean"......im sure that goes for all sides and parties. So im sure facts will all come out whats true and whats not someday and somewhere!

With personal respect to you and UN veterans And again thank you for your work at the maslenica op and showing hrvatska can "successfully do somthing" for later operations to the world.


----------



## galvanizer

I've joined after Maslenica and before Medak. As I said in May 1993 and Maslenica was done from 6. to 27. January that year.
maslenica was another example of shameful actions of UN(politics)
Before that action Croatia was cut in half and UN were responsible for securing normal traffic and funcion of south Croatia. But again they did nothing. Our forces took initiative  and started the action. HV secured Novsko zdrilo and pushed Serbs away from Zadar suburbs.
Action was stopped by UN which treatend Croatia with economic sanctions. after that our forces were in defencive because action was stooped  few miles from ideal defencive positions which resulted in some 120 Croat soldiers killed. But we stood our ground and secured normal traffic between Dalmatia and north Croatia.

And believe me there was no fire clash only verbal after action was over. And that was even shown in CBC documentary.


----------



## muskrat89

> I diodn't see anyone else providing any evidences that prove Canadian story



That's because, until you came along - the thread was a review about a book. Several posters have commented on the books accuracy, based on their own experiences.



> I tougt that this is democracy.



No, this is a private website. The forum is administered per the wishes of the owner.


----------



## combat_medic

We're here to defend democracy, not practice it. 

Galvanizer, if you continue this rhetoric, you will be banned. Last warning.


----------



## Franko

Well well.....another troll I see.

Listen bub....he was there plain and simple. I know a few who were there that are currently serving here in A stan who can back up his story.

You have your POV on this topic....he lived it. Period.

You're on the ramp with no chute.....it's up to you.

Regards


----------



## galvanizer

I see none of you has answerd 2 simple questions:
1. Was your job to remove serbian artilery that sheelled Gospic?
2.Did you do it?


For defending democracy: What democracy were you "defending" there???

Now you can ban me!

Dovidjenja!


----------



## George Wallace

No real need to ban you.  No real reason to answer your question either, as this is not a Thread for 'Historical Discussion' but a Thread on "BOOK REVIEWS".  

Perhaps you'd like to go to the threads on Military History or Foreign Militaries to start a Topic on this subject?


----------



## muskrat89

Here you go:

From http://www.cda-cdai.ca/library/medakpocket2.htm



> In mid-September 1993 United Nations Protection Force (UNPROFOR) soldiers from 2nd Battalion, Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry (2PPCLI) advanced into the disputed Medak Pocket in southern Croatian with orders to implement the latest cease-fire between Croatian Army troops and Serb irregular forces. 2PPCLI were reinforced with two mechanized companies of French troops.  The Canadians, well schooled in the delicate art of “peacekeeping”, discovered their negotiation skills and strict impartiality were not immediately required the Medak Pocket.  Instead they found themselves calling upon their primary war-fighting skills when Croatian Army units opened fire with machine-guns, mortars and artillery in an effort to stop the Canadian advance.   To complete their assigned mission the Patricia’s were required to threaten the use of, and ultimately use, deadly force against Croatian units.  However, the true test of military professionalism and discipline came after the smoke cleared, the Croatians backed down and the Canadians immediately reverted to their role as impartial peacekeepers in their dealings with individuals who only moments before had attempted to kill them.
> 
> Resolute Canadian and French action came at a time when the UN reputation in Croatia was at a low ebb due to repeated failures to secure the infamous United Nations Protected Areas (UNPA’s).  Colonel George Oehring, commander of UNPROFOR Sector South, claimed the Princess Patrcia’s “won for the whole mission a credibility and respect that will be long remembered by the opposing parties and much facilitate our future efforts here.”  For their efforts, 2PPCLI was awarded a United Nations Force Commander’s Commendation from French General Cot, the first of its kind of one of only three awarded in UNPROFOR’s history.
> 
> Of course, the Canadians originally went to the Former Republic of Yugoslavia to protect a fragile truce, not to impose peace on warring factions locked in a bloody civil war.  Until the early 1990's Yugoslavia was a federation of consisting of six republics including Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro, Slovenia, Bosnia-Herzegovina and Macedonia, all quite similar in language, culture and custom. Despite the presence of ultra-nationalist movements in each republic, the Yugoslav federation existed harmoniously earning international acclaim and the privilege of hosting the world at the 1984 Winter Olympics.
> 
> The collapse of centralized communist authority in Yugoslavia during the late 1980's brought nationalists in each republic into mainstream politics.  In Serbia, Slobodan Milosevic and in Croatia Franjo Tudjman, rose to power by destroying the carefully constructed Yugoslav identity in favour of a new nationhood based on blood and religion. In the process,            Serbia, most powerful of the six republics, attempted to take control over the crumbling federation. This did not appeal to growing nationalist movements in Croatia and Slovenia resulting in declarations of independence in 1991, followed closely by a similar move in Bosnia. Croatia and Bosnia contained large numbers of ethnic Serbs, hostile to the federal breakup. Croatian and Bosnian Serbs established paramilitary forces to resist their respective new governments leading to two distinctly separate civil wars.
> 
> During the opening months of these wars, the Yugoslav National Army (JNA), on orders from Belgrade, openly intervened to prevent the breakup of the federation. JNA involvement usually meant assisting Serb militias in Croatia and Bosnia. However, the regular army was a mirror of the old federation and thus suffered from the same problems of divided loyalties. Non-Serb officers and senior NCO's left the JNA to join the new national armies of their home republics.  This exodus of non-Serbs destroyed cohesion in the JNA, thus eliminating the only modern  professional military force in Yugoslavia. With no army left to implement its goals and an economy on the verge of collapse, Serbia gradually withdrew from conflicts in Croatia and Bosnia, leaving Serb minorities there to fend for themselves against the newly created Bosnian and Croatian armies. Serb militias acquired weapons, vehicles, and even volunteers from the JNA as it withdrew, while newly created Croatian and Bosnian forces received equipment from outside sources like Germany and the United States. However, equipment alone does not build an army. It would take years before the various militias and armed gangs would coalesce into professional military forces.
> 
> For most of the period between 1992-95, the Yugoslav wars of succession were waged by amateurs. When the JNA was removed from the equation, they took with them the normal codes of conduct held by modern professional military officers.  Rival militias fired weapons in the vicinity of opposing troops, more often than not, intent on killing civilians. The result was to create a pattern of combat where military casualties were few. The new armies knew how to kill, but not how to wage war against other soldiers properly. Unprotected civilians were a different matter.  And so, the objective in these wars was not to defeat the opponent’s combat power but to consolidate new ethnic nation-states by killing or driving out those who did not fit.
> 
> The United Nations Protection Force (UNPROFOR) entered this storm in 1992, first in Croatia and later in Bosnia. In Croatia, the UN brokered a cease-fire between the new Croatian government in Zagreb and minority Serbs who sought independence from the new state. The peace agreement included establishment of a UN patrolled buffer zone in under Chapter VI of the UN Charter. Both parties welcomed the cease fire, when in fact it held, as an opportunity to build their military capabilities until such time as victory could be assured.  This was the environment faced by Canadian soldiers making up UNPROFOR’s Canadian Battalion Number 1 in 1993.





> The Patricia’s vigorously enforced weapons bans in their area of operations, seizing contra-band arms of all types from both warring factions.  Colonel Calvin also, on his own initiative, developed a procedure to deter Croat and Serb patrolling and raiding within the Protected Area.  Previously, belligerent soldiers detained by the UN after engaging in such activity would be returned to their own authorities for punishment.  Calvin began releasing detainee’s to the opposing forces with UN civilian police keeping a close eye to ensure punishment was not ‘terminal’.



There's lots more there too, if you care to read it. I'm sure it is all lies though.

Anyway - per George, if you'd like to continue this in a civil manner, please feel free to start another thread in a suitable forum. I'll lock this for now. If someone wants to re-open and discuss the book, let a Mod know.


----------



## muskrat89

OK - I was PMd with a request to re-open this. Since it was so far off of the original topic, I split it at the point where galvanizer piped up.

Please keep things civil. I'll unlock the original thread as well.

Thanks.


----------



## muskrat89

A separate topic regarding the actions at Medak has been opened in the Canadian Army forum. Please limit comments in this thread to the book review. Thanks.


----------



## ZipperHead

I just finished reading the book (a Xmas present from the wife). I thought it was pretty decent, and even read of a few people that I know from 2PPCLI and some Reserves that I hadn't known were in Medak (they never mentioned it, I never asked). 

I was talking with a guy who was there (a Reservist at the time), and he said, like most books, there were some factual errors. But on the whole, he seemed to be OK with it. I was aware of the basic events of Medak Pocket, but I didn't know nearly as much as I had initially thought (due to the DND black-out of events, and people not getting their story out). It is a sad commentary on the state of the CF at the time (and the government mostly) that this was swept under the carpet. Not giving the soldiers that were there their due (and vindicating them for the job well done, rather than investigating people on some small transgressions) was a damn shame. It mentioned in the book that there was a break in the normal military tradition of accepting responsibility at the highest level (i.e not passing the buck, and blaming it on subordinates) in regards to the Somalia scandal, and it obviously happened with this as well. After living through that era, and witnessing the absolute shame of senior officers (and senior Sr NCO's) standing by silently as only the lower ranks were punished, in the interest of themselves (i.e. not damaging their own careers) left a bad taste in the mouths of every soldier that I know. I would say that time frame was the lowest that the military has ever been, and it has been rough sledding to get the military out of that particular abyss.

I have seen a big change in the attitudes of officers and NCO's in regards to looking after their soldiers. Sure, there are still careerists and shit-pumps at the top, but I think that one day (soon) they will get their due (if there is any justice). If a person is more concerned about the next rank level, and not about the welfare of their soldiers (not being willing to take a stand on behalf of their soldiers for fear of career implications), they have no right to be a leader. Unfortunately there were too many examples of this happening in this period, so it became the norm.

I'm not particularly poetic, but a Bruce Cockburn lyric might sum up this dark period in the CF's history: "Got to kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight". Tell the soldier's stories, and let them be proud of what they did, not the shame that the government wanted them to feel.

Al


----------



## noneck

I was in the Pocket prior to the attack by the 9th Lika Wolves Bde. On the night the Croat preparatory shelling began I was occupying an OP above Sveti Rok overlooking the rail and road junction between Medak and Gracac. Prior to this by about a few weeks my Section Op'd a Serb artillery Battery up by the Peruca Dam.

So during this whole period I didn't see Serb Arty, fire one round anywhere towards HV Forces or Croat occupied towns. I did observe a minor tank engagement up by the Peruca Dam and numerous instances of patrols bumping each other but that was it.

After the initial onslaught into the Pocket it was a free for all, RSK aircraft from either Udbina or Bosnia did attack HV ground forces in the Pocket on numerous occasions and rockets were fired from Bihac into Zagreb. I also witnessed a Super Galeb attack targets as well as a HIP pop up and fire ATGM's and HV armoured forces.

Basically what I am attempting to put forward is that there was no Serb provocation that I observed prior to the HV preparatory fire.

It is obvious from the comments on the other post prior to it being split that there are still some folks in Croatia that are either embarrassed/ashamed of what occurred in the region by their forces. So much so , that 13 years later they are still trying to convince people that it didn't happen.....then again there are still Holocaust deniers claiming that it didn't happen either! 

Cheers 
Noneck


----------



## Mark Antony

Right on noneck!

The Pocket is just the the last example in my 6 months of witnessing hatred, death and shameful acts by both Serb and Croat.  While the Serbs certainly have nothing to be proud of, I often thought that the Croats tried to play the "poor me" card so much to the press (much like galvanizer), while committing the same atrocities, that I began to take a great dislike to that side (at least more than the Serb side).

That aside, both Serbs and Croats should be ashamed of this history and should be trying to wipe it out through educating their people about it rather than trying to deny it.  It might prevent it from happening again.  I'd like to hear from anyone of Croat or Serb descent that might be able to enlighten me about whether this education may be happening.

...or did they learn nothing?


----------



## derael

Galvanizer kinda reminds me of the Iraqi information minister...


----------



## HollywoodHitman

Well done Noneck. One of the reasons we install peacekeepers as force monitors is so that history can be viewed and reported as it happened. Everyone on the ground watching what happens will have a different vantage point and where the information is assembled, a more clear picture of what happend comes out.

Cheers


----------



## S McKee

Hey galvanizer you must be familiar with the great Croat military victory at the villiage of Stupni Do....


----------



## blueboy

Thanks for the enlightenment noneck. It's hard for some to accept the truth when they view it like an ostrich with their head in the sand.


----------



## pbi

Galvanizer is sadly very typical of the numerous Croat "ethnic cleansing" deniers I have met since I served in Sector South with CANBAT in 04 (MCpl Isfeld was killed in my company area). I have argued with them on a number of occasions since then. One thing I noted about the Croats, both in the homeland and the expat organizations here in Canada, was their capacity for denial and self-delusion about what had been done in ther name by the HVO and the Special Police. (Similar perhaps to some in the German population in the post WWII years.) They have swallowed their own information operation, whole. 

Nobody (not least the Canadians) denies the stupid, hideous and unrepentant behaviour of the Serbs in many situations in FRY. What people like Galvanizer hope is that we will all be so busy yelling about Sarajevo, Srebenica and Mostar that we will forget about Medak and the atrocities during AKTION GROM in 1995. To a great exent they have been successful, and they get very upset when "liars" like us bring up a different version than what Zagreb approves.

IMHO the healthiest thing for Croatia to do is to follow Germany's post-war example and admit to the fact that war, especially war driven by nationalist and ethnic furies, can produce horrible results. The recent actions of  the Croat governmen in indicting people such as Gen Gotovina and others will go some way towards this, but there needs to be a national effort. Only then can  Croatia rightfully lay claim to the status it so desperately wanted in 1993: to be a civilized part of the modern Europe, not a throwback Balkan backwater with a murderous history  in the service of the Austro-Hungarians or the Axis, or of their own uncontrolled nationalist feelings.

Cheers


----------



## Strike

I just picked up the book at the Ottawa airport on my way to the UK and could not put it down.  I just finished it today as I had another day of leave left to burn (good thing too, 'cause I have a cold).  Wow.  I only knew a little about Medak.  There was a guy a couple of years below me at RMC who had been there.  He didn't talk about it at all, but we all knew where the decoration came from.  The description of him in the book was bang on.   

All in all, I found the book very well written.  I am not much of a history buff, but got through the historical aspects of the Balkans very quickly.  I found that Off seemed to write for the average Canadian, explaining things well, but not going into so much detail that it would scare off anyone who has no knowledge of the military.  I would certainly recommend this book, and plan on passing it on to my father.  I suspect my mother will get a little miffed at me, as he has a habit of staying up all night when he has a good book.


----------



## Medak

I suppose you can tell by my name that i was also therelet me know what you want to know and we will chat.


----------



## Medak

Hey noneck I was with D Coy 11 pl name is Cpl Matt Rushton


----------



## noneck

Good to hear from you buddy, PM sent. 

Noneck


----------



## 3rd Horseman

I do believe that a new member here at army.ca was also present at the battle and he would from what I understand be the only gunner present. Pm him if you want, his handle is billyray.

Cheers


----------



## Centurian1985

Can anyone show me the link to the previous Medak discussion boards?  I tried a search and all i got were references back to this book review...

(edit - thanks bruce)


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Just made up a super-thread of all the small "pockets" here and there.....enjoy.
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/64.0.html


----------



## Centurian1985

As an 'investigator' who worked in the Balkans long after Medak, there was ample evidence that all three sides had units that were involved in ethnic cleansing and war crimes.  

Ref the documents published by Serbs and/or Croat sources, after the war ended in 1995 all three sides were actively 're-creating history' to make themselves appear innocent and the others guilty (yes, including the Muslim Bosniacs).  Special departments were created on all three sides to create documentation and testimy that would reinforce their claims of their innocence and others wrongdoing. 

Its called 'disinformation' and 'propoganda'; people forget that the inhabitants of this area of the world learned their craft over the past 50 years from experts: the Russians, the Nazis and the extremist Muslim factions.  

It is made worse by the fact that once information gets into the electronic information systems those who are unaware of whats going on, or who dont have first or second hand knowledge of events, dont know what to believe and are easily led down the wrong path.


----------



## 54hawken

I was in the medak , I was lead wagon once we crossed the start line by the Serb Bgd HQ in Medak and I have read every propaganda article that Croatia has written that I could find. The fact is this the  proof of their ethnic cleansing was carried out by the Bn and the UN . Theres pictures , VHS tapes written statemants from dozens of men we dont have it together enough to create that many false statements. They are claiming that its false only to salvage their ass cause they want into the EU and the EU wont have anything to do with them because of War crimes conducted by their forces in the Medak in Sep of 93. End of their LIES! Read Ghost of the Medak its very well written ! And it shows the truth of the Croats assault and Ethnic cleansing and of the Canadian problems with certain personnell!


----------



## noneck

BILLYRAY was there, we were in the same Company.  

Matt say hello to Steve for me and any of those other C-Coy reprobates you run into! ;D

Cheers
Noneck


----------



## Chindian

if it was taken in the Medac by someone in Charlie company, I'm going to say Mike Obrien. Last I heard he was with recruiting in Toronto area. Bill Gomm didnt get out to a lot of these little comany parties. I worked with him quite a bit.

Seriously, try finding Mike, I'm betting he isthe guy.


----------



## paracowboy

I'm going to modify your title a bit, to draw in the 2VP dudes. Maybe that'll get you better results.


----------



## noneck

Is the  big blond guy in the picture Woodie (Garnet Woodford) ? I remember this position as my section was co-located in this field with elements of Delta Coy and TOW, it was one big mud bog. 

We were the Charlie Coy Section that rolled in with our blue rocket porta potty strapped to the roof of our track ;D. If I can find the pic I am going to post it!

Cheers
Noneck


----------



## rayvermette

That's Woodie alright.


----------



## captjtq

I've got nothing pertinent to add - just that it's an awesome looking pic - I can see why you'd want a better quality one. ;-)


----------



## quinner12

If it's any help, I was in DCoy HQ during that tour....Each platoon in the coy had an unofficial photographer...He would hand his pics to the coy 2IC who would then pick and choose from the lot that he was given and use these for the SANDBAG(the tour book).  I know this because, the 2IC took alot from me.  It's been a long time so I forget who the photographer was for 10 pl...Although it's a little out of focus, it is a good pic of some down time the troops had during a stressful time for the Bn in general..


----------



## gwoody

hey ray i have more pictures of the game, i am not sure who took them but it was with my camera, send me your email address and i will forward all of them to you - good to hear from you - isnt it scary what you find about yourself when you google your own name - this is the only wayi came across this sight - woody


----------



## spqr

Hey there,

Reviving this old thread to say that I was able to pick a copy of Ghosts of Medk Pocket up for 5.99 at Chapters yesterday.   Its on the discount rack now and it is a good read so if you haven't read it yet its a good price now.


----------



## Zevon26

I was in D Coy and I am intrested to see if 54hawken and I were in the same vehicle. I was in the first M113 to cross the line in Sept after C Coy had engaged the Croats. 

noneck, I was in a section with a BILLYRAY from BC. Same person I guess??


----------



## Bartok5

54 Hawken is on the cover of "Tested Mettle".  He was the sect comd involved in the heaviest fighting in the Pocket.  That ought to be enough for you to figure out if you two were in the same track.  He doesn't hang out here much, but you might try PM'ing him.  He's CSM of the 3PPCLI Para Coy these days.


----------



## 3rd Herd

Just an observation and maybe a bit of highjack but. I can't figure out if it is the water or training but the past couple of posts have been great in view of opsec/persec. You have all managed to figure out who is who without an internet broadcast such as found in the "Any 1 CER here" thread and a couple of others. Again from purely an observation point it has been both interesting and enjoyable to watch.


----------



## George Wallace

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> Just an observation and maybe a bit of highjack but. I can't figure out if it is the water or training but the past couple of posts have been great in view of opsec/persec. You have all managed to figure out who is who without an internet broadcast such as found in the "Any 1 CER here" thread and a couple of others. Again from purely an observation point it has been both interesting and enjoyable to watch.



When it comes to PERSEC, there is none if all the information is already in a profile.  Sort of like Pte Bloggins trying to tell the MP that his name is "Smythe", when his nametag tells the real story.


----------



## Fusilier

Has anyone else heard when the documentary "The Battle of Medak Pocket" will be shown?  Supposedly it will be on the History Channel, on Turning Points in History.  I know they interviewed a bunch of the guys just last summer and filmed it in Meaford, On.  Any info would be great!


----------



## the 48th regulator

I went to history.ca, typed in medak and got this.

http://www.history.ca/ontv/titledetails.aspx?titleid=101238

September 16th 8pm EST.

dileas

tess


----------



## Flip

There is a book by Carol Off - same one as on CBC

It's called - The Ghosts of Medak Pocket.

Dry read but quite a story.

It'll help kill that pesky "peacekeeping" thing.


----------



## Fusilier

Flip, yes I know the book and the battle very well.  My husband was there.  Just trying to confirm when the new movie/documentary will be shown

48th - thanks, for the info - I wasn't having any luck!


----------



## noneck

Fusilier- Your husband was more than there     He was a big part of Charlie Coy, a major personality and leader that the troops still talk about. One of those in case of war break glass types.

 I still remember the big cheer that went up in the Winnipeg Hotel lounge when he came in for the reception that Carol Off put on. Please give him the best from all the Seaforths!!! 

Very interested in this documentary, I'll pass the word to the troops that it's coming on.

Cheers
Noneck


----------



## Fusilier

Hey Noneck - it's been a while!  Rudy and I got married on 23 June, still living the country life!  This documentary is new, CBC came out to the house to interview Rudy it was an all day affair.  They also interviewed Rod Dearing and a couple of other guys.  I think what they've done is to slide the interviews between re-enactments, we've been in contact with Craig Cyr, the actor that plays Rudy.  Seem like a good guy, they filmed in Meaford.  Bill Coban was ramroding the project but I haven't been able to get hold of him to nail down time/date when it would be on but no luck so far.  Just keep an eye on the history channel!

 to all you guys too....no man is alone in the fight!

cheers


----------



## medaid

Tonight at 8ET/8PT the History Channel will be doing a presentation on the Battle of Medak Pocket for all of you who are interested. I will be watching it. It'll be interesting to hear from the Veterans of this battle, their views and their comments on the presentation and its accuracy by the History Channel.


Cheers,

MT.


----------



## TN2IC

I am standing by, 20 more mintues for me. Looking forward to it. As long as the 9er don't turn it on me... again.


----------



## Poco

I have the PVR all fired up!


----------



## Fusilier

Really??  I was told it's not on until Nov 6, and the cast isn't even seeing it until 4 Nov.  Is this the newest documentary??


----------



## CADPAT SOLDIER

yeah, the one thats mostly reenactments by reserve soldiers


----------



## Fusilier

They have real actors too, Craig Cyr plays Rudy Bajema and I think this one has the interviews??    Is anyone taping this or recording somehow???!!!!  I'm currently stuck in Wainwright on ex - have computer but no TV.  Really, really want a copy for my husband who was there....


----------



## TN2IC

I think you can buy these videos/DVD on the history web site. It's been a while since i was on there.


Regards,
TN2IC



Edit to Add link..

http://www.history.ca/


----------



## Fusilier

thanks, I'm listening to it through the field phone, Rudy is watching at home.  I'll try the history channel and see if I can buy it.  Rudy says they're doing a pretty good job on the re-enactments.


----------



## TN2IC

Yup, I am impressed. 45 minutes into it.


----------



## TN2IC

I want to find the DVD collection "FOR KING AND COUNTRY". Wonder if it is floating around yet.

Regards,
TN2IC


----------



## Mike Baker

It was good, I must say.


----------



## Pte.Butt

Mike Baker said:
			
		

> It was good, I must say.



Yeah I enjoyed watching it!


----------



## Rocketryan

I enjoyed watching it as well

If it wasnt for this I would've never heard of the Battle of Medak Pocket


----------



## Northern Ranger

Don't forget its on tonight starts a 9 out west.

edit, well this is the first post that came up on the Pocket when I searched., seems like I missed the boat as timmings have been given on another thread.


----------



## Fusilier

Well from what I heard through the phone line sounded good.  Rudy was impressed and said they did a good job?  Can someone tell me how his interview came off??

thanks


----------



## ClaytonD

Just watched it. I thought it was pretty damn good. It's unfortunate that this battle isn't heard about more in Canada or at the very LEAST mentioned by teachers in our schools. The Battle of the Medak Pocket truly shows the courage the Canadian soldiers had when they could have just turned and left.

It's sad to know that it took 9 years for these soldiers to be recognized.


----------



## CrazyCanuck

I thought it was funny that the BFA's were on the rifles during all the combat scenes, but at least they painted them black. Otherwise it was fairly interesting.


----------



## Fraser.g

Pretty dam accurate as to the countryside etc. I was on the tour before the pocket flaired up but it certanly brought back some memories. Not all happy ones to say the least.
I was impressed. Beats the hell out of the King of Karenja or what ever that cheezy CBC documentary was called in the late 90's


----------



## medaid

Finished watching it and it was quite a good documentary. I recognized a few faces on the documentary, the one that stuck out the most was one of my instructors for my BMQ course. It was true that during my younger years I have never heard of Medak Pocket. Not until my History 12 teacher taught it to us in my Gr.11 year. The fact that so many people, CF and civilians were unaware of the happenings during that time in Medak, was a shock to me even till this day. I still remember the local newspaper coming out with an article which detailed some of the happenings during Medak and those that were locals here in my home town being awarded the GGC.

The actions of those in 2PPCLI should never be forgotten, and the recognition should be ever lasting. 

Just a fun fact, some of the interviews were conducted at the Jericho Garrison Mess.


----------



## noneck

Fusilier- 

Rudy did a great job, as did the rest of the troops, Rod's "matter of fact no BS" way of speaking makes me laugh !!!

I was really worried that in typical Cdn TV fashion that they wouldn't do it justice.....I am pleased to say that it was great (apart from the helmets and BFA's). Even the weather in Meaford matched! 

I have to say that, that hour took me back to being a  20 year old Cpl in C-Coy. I called up Rob D about 30 seconds after it ended and he was quite happy with it as well. I would go so far as to say that it was better than the CBC documentary.

Raising a glass to all the troops from Roto 2  

Noneck


----------



## Fraser.g

I am in the process of raising a tankard to those in roto 2 from an old sodd from roto 1


----------



## Cannonfodder

It was very well done , a good blend of first hand stories and reenactments . I think the Medak story has finally been given justice from a first hand perspective this documentry was flawless , good show .


----------



## westie47

That totally brought me back to Sept 93 and a lot of old memories. I found out about it by fluke too!!!! I made some life long friends during that tour, some were interviewed in the show. Just because there were no physical casualties doesn't mean there weren't any............anyway I thought it was a good job. I loved the old footage, never seen that before.

Cheers 2VP.

5 Pl, B Coy


----------



## Mike Baker

Rocketryan said:
			
		

> If it wasnt for this I would've never heard of the Battle of Medak Pocket


+1. I am kind of embarrassed I never heard of it, even a little bit of it before.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Bad news if you're interested in buying the show on DVD, folks....

According to the History.ca web page FAQ:

Q: Are History Television's programs available to purchase on DVD or VHS?

A: At this time, we have discontinued the Shop section on history.ca. If you have any questions regarding this matter, please contact us at: Webmaster@history.ca.


----------



## RHFC_piper

milnewstbay said:
			
		

> Bad news if you're interested in buying the show on DVD, folks....
> 
> According to the History.ca web page FAQ:
> 
> Q: Are History Television's programs available to purchase on DVD or VHS?
> 
> A: At this time, we have discontinued the Shop section on history.ca. If you have any questions regarding this matter, please contact us at: Webmaster@history.ca.



Wow... Glad I PVR'd it.  Now I have to figure out how to get it from PVR to DVD/VHS... I hate technology.


----------



## larry Strong

I was on Roto 1 and remember the first bunch arriving at Polom. I thought it was an interesting documentary.


----------



## Fusilier

Noneck - on behalf of Rudy, thanks for the comments - he says "hi buds" too.  I listened to most of it through the field phone and definately know what you mean about Rod.  He's out here in the field with me too, can't miss that voice or laugh anywhere in the camp.  I'm hoping it airs again, the producer told us that it wouldn't be aired until 6 Nov...so it was a bit of a surprise.  I wouldn't have known if I hadn't done my nightly log in here - thanks guys!!

RHFC piper - if you're willing to help a fellow fusilier could I get a copy? I'll pay for the disc and postage etc.  

 to all you guys that served with Rudy and Rod and the rest of them.  I'm very honoured that I'm married to a fine soldier and the other is one of my best friends.  You all did an awesome job as soldiers always do and continue to do.  Thanks guys, love you all :-*


----------



## RHFC_piper

Fusilier said:
			
		

> RHFC piper - if you're willing to help a fellow fusilier could I get a copy? I'll pay for the disc and postage etc.



I've been PM'd about a method to extract it from my PVR, but I don't know if it would be a good idea, legally, to distribute copies...  But if it makes its way on to the web as a Torrent file, or on YouTube, I'll post a link...  ;D

Also, I'm thinking of just contacting the production company about getting legal copy... I'm really surprised The History Channel isn't selling copies of their documentaries anymore.       I know the CBC still sells copies directly... you just have to ask.  (is it a CBC production?)


----------



## armyvern

Limewire works for me!!


----------



## RHFC_piper

I'll see what I can do.  No promises though... I have to get it off of the PVR first.

If anyone else has a copy to upload...   ;D  (limewire, BitTorrent, Ares, Liveleak, YouTube... take your pick.)


----------



## The Bread Guy

RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> I've been PM'd about a method to extract it from my PVR, but I don't know if it would be a good idea, legally, to distribute copies...  But if it makes its way on to the web as a Torrent file, or on YouTube, I'll post a link...  ;D  Also, I'm thinking of just contacting the production company about getting legal copy... I'm really surprised The History Channel isn't selling copies of their documentaries anymore.       I know the CBC still sells copies directly... you just have to ask.  (is it a CBC production?)



I missed it, so I was hoping for a DVD as well....

As I read the FAQ  a bit further, though, I see some hope:
"Please note that at this time, episodes from the Turning Points of History series are unavailable for purchase from History Television. Please send your video request to _*Barna-Alper barnaalper@bap.ca 416-979-0676*_"

Here's the producer's page for the series "Turning Points of History", so it appears appears that the production company is the best go-to, either at the address listed above, or info@bap.ca.  I will drop them a line and share whatever I get back.

Barna-Alper Productions Inc.
366 Adelaide St. West, Suite 700, 
Toronto Ontario M5V 1R9
Telephone: 416-979-0676
Fax: 416-979-7476 
E-mail: info@bap.ca


----------



## Fusilier

Thanks for the link for the Turning points in History producers.  I'll try that, I guess we at least have to try to be legal about it


----------



## The Bread Guy

Fusilier said:
			
		

> Thanks for the link for the Turning points in History producers.  I'll try that, I guess we at least have to try to be legal about it



At least in the public forum, anyway


----------



## Fusilier

Great news!  Got hold of the producer, he is sending all the interviewees a copy of the DVD!


----------



## Greymatters

Will someone be able to post this on the net somwhere so others can get a copy?  (if it doesnt violate your ethical/moral code that is...)


----------



## GAP

Just simply upload on a torrent site, distribute the torrent for downloading


----------



## the 48th regulator

GAP said:
			
		

> Just simply upload on a torrent site, distribute the torrent for downloading



Rapidshare much faster and allows you to remain annonnymous.

So I have heard....hey is that the postman?  Gotta go!

dileas

tess


----------



## noneck

Fusilier-

Awesome news, You don't get unless you ask! 

Noneck


----------



## Fusilier

Thanks noneck, let me know if you want a copy.   :-*


----------



## noneck

No worries I see Rob D at least once a week, i am sure he will provide his copy for burning by the Lower Mainland Crew. 

Graham B, Rudy's 2 i/c was on vacation and didn't catch it, so we will have to have a screening for the Troops.....and maybe a few beers ;D

noneck


----------



## CE621

I have a copy and will be putting it on *Ares*  p2p now.Search for  "Battle of the Medak Pocket"


----------



## Greymatters

CE621 said:
			
		

> I have a copy and will be putting it on *Ares*  p2p now.Search for  "Battle of the Medak Pocket"



To quote the younger generation... 'sweet'!


----------



## Fusilier

Noneck, 

From Rudy (I read him the posts, he's not a computer guru) "hi buds!  Cheers to all of you and have a beer for me!"

 ;D


----------



## Mike Bobbitt

Folks, if this is copywritten material we need to handle it appropriately. Or at least take it to PMs.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Fusilier said:
			
		

> Great news!  Got hold of the producer, he is sending all the interviewees a copy of the DVD!



Well done!  Still waiting for a response to an e-mail and a phone message here....


----------



## Fusilier

I we're getting a copy only because they're sending a DVD to ea of the guys interviewed.  I also emailed the production company and have yet to recieve a reply.  You think they would jump at the chance to sell DVD's.  I'm sure it will end up on the net somewhere, but like Mike said if it's copywritten.... well you know.  Need to act responsibly, also I suppose that its a good thing that I can't manage to burn a music CD let alone anything else!!

 ;D


----------



## The Bread Guy

Fusilier said:
			
		

> You think they would jump at the chance to sell DVD's.



I even spelled it out in my e-mail re:  there are a not insignificant number of people who'd buy....

Oh well, I'll have to wait to buy a legal copy


----------



## axeman

Its on the history channel right now


----------



## hr1u00

Hi guys,

I was wonderin how far in front of the serb lines were you on night 15/16 september when croats fired you ?
Were serbs tryin to use you to get behinde croat line, on 10 km long battle line ?
First sory for my poor english but this is what happend :
CANBAT had HQ few kilometers behinde serb lines, in Medak along with serb HQ.
Agremment was aranged on 13th september and ratified on 14th september for Croats to pull out their units on old positions before action, and serbs to stayed on  lines wich they lose in Croatian offensive. In the midlle of that tampon zone wide only 150-400 m  CANBAT and FREBAT were sopouse to establish check point .
On 15th september around 13.00 Charlie Company advancing from Medak forward to serb lines , followed by Frenc company on north wing to fullfill faze 1, ocupying serb lines. As they were approaching serb lines firefighting become closer and closer. At that point C-Coy fired back at will, and start diging trenches. They stuck along with srb lines as night was falling. Firefight was low -intensity and sporadical . Croats were firefighting preventivly on srb lines to stop any possible attack from serb side, wich was powered by busues with fresh forces of notorius special forces Arkan and kapetan Dragan and 10-12 tanks a day before to stop Croat advancing. C-Company stayed in trenches all night anaware they were in the midlle of front srb lines and in the midlle of firefight between srb and croat forces. C-Company engaged in firefight at will, but they didnt asked for any help or autorisation over radio to the HQ or tryed to communicate to Croats and serbs over their HQ. In the morning C-Company gets message from their HQ that Croats want meeting with Jim Calvin.
They were talking obout faze 2, puting UNPROFOR check point on the road in the midlle of killing zone, there was no report abot last night " high intensity firefight from all Croat weapons on canadians". Only weak Croatin protest on minor firefight form C-Company on Croats wich lasted for like 15 - 20 minutes.  French Company didnt report no battle . Official serb documents and reports didnt pick up any incident altough C-Company was in the midlle of their lines.
Faze 2 was done, and in the 1200 that day (16th) Delta Company followed by second french company came on Croatian Check point on front croat lines to complete faze 3.
Jim Calvin came on croatian side sudenly demanding Croats to pull back and out of Medak Pocket or he will start fireing.It was 1.5 houre mexican stand off he says 3 years later. But again ,french company didnt report no mexican stand off, neither journalists saw anything like that. Croats refused to pass him into the area so he called some serb and reuters jurnalists waiting there and held press conference. Again there was no word about last night firefight nor ethnical cleansing or burning villages. At 1330 croats started pullin their tenks and units out of Pocket so canadians were entering Pocket area. Not untill next day 17th they reached whole area of Medak Pocke altough they were not blocked by croat side.Once they reached area they disobade they mandate and enter 10 km behinde lines agred by agreement. So the craoatian officer Ademi called for new round of negotiation. Canadians have to pull back into the agred by agrement.
So there is no evidence or official report wich proves c-company story "about hole nigt intesive battle", from Croat side, serb side, CANBAT HQ, FREBAT HQ or any other UN organs. there was no even radio communication between C-Company to CANBAT HQ, call for back up, arial strike or negotiation with croat side.
There was no evidence of battle . Croats didnt report any casulties, but Canadians 3 years later started talking about 27 dead croats.

it seems  primitive Jim Calvine and afraid in the night C-Company created war story so they could fix their financial status and ranking , also they becom all-canadian war heros.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

.....and you are just furthur proof that,.......ah, never mind.  

Always good for a chuckle anyway.


----------



## hr1u00

http://www.nsf-journal.hr/issues/v3_n3-4/10.htm

here is some serious questions raised wich non of them can't be answered by canadian side.
it is quite bite of text so read it carefuly...oh that Jim Calvin is such a funny guy


----------



## Good2Golf

hr1u00 said:
			
		

> ...it seems  primitive Jim Calvine and afraid in the night C-Company created war story so they could fix their financial status and ranking , also they becom all-canadian war heros.



hr1u00, you appear to have failed to understand the Milnet.ca Conduct Guidelines, in particular this section:



> *Personal Attacks*
> 
> Milnet.ca has a zero tolerance policy for personal attacks, whether against another Milnet.ca member or a public figure. Posts that contain a personal attack should be summarily deleted, and the user should normally receive a warning. Personal attacks detract from the professionalism of the site and can sometimes cause serious problems for Milnet.ca as a whole.



The other section of the Guidlines which you should familiarize yourself with is the Warning System, welcome to it's first level.

Re-read the Conduct Guidelines and conduct yourself in an acceptable manner.


*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## George Wallace

hr1u00 said:
			
		

> http://www.nsf-journal.hr/issues/v3_n3-4/10.htm
> 
> here is some serious questions raised wich non of them can't be answered by canadian side.
> it is quite bite of text so read it carefuly...oh that Jim Calvin is such a funny guy



It is interesting to read from another perspective.  Of course you have to also remember who is writing the story and what the political climate is at the time.  When I went to school Louis Riel was the 19th Century version of Osama bin Laden in Canada.  Today, Louis Riel is a Canadian hero.

In this case, we have an article from the Croatian perspective out of an editorial office in Zagreb (read very bottom of article for source):


> National Security and the Future >> Editorial Office, Ruđera Boškovićeva 20, 10000 Zagreb, Croatia.
> >> Tel: (385) 1 492 1099, Fax: (385) 1 492 1101 >> info@nsf-journal.hr



Nothing is being hidden from the discerning reader.


----------



## fraserdw

Still fighting old wars if you ask me.  Being a native, I just cannot understand the European need to always be conquering one another.  Let it go, take a vacation, go for a boat ride and enjoy life.


----------



## Scott

:stop: Don't feed the trolls.


----------



## OldSolduer

fraserdw said:
			
		

> Still fighting old wars if you ask me.  Being a native, I just cannot understand the European need to always be conquering one another.  Let it go, take a vacation, go for a boat ride and enjoy life.



I didn't ask you and I think you missed the point. 

My point is that this person attempted to re write history, and I, along with about 800 other Canadian soldiers, bore witness to that history. Some of those soldiers are stilll affected by the slaughter that occurred.


----------



## fraserdw

Reading through the Croatian site at the link, most of what is on there is revisionist.  It is all fairly typical of a post communist state, the line that "we were victims under the communists, so we could not possibly be victimizers" resonates throughout South Europe and the former USSR.  As time moves on, revisionists theory becomes more and more accepted as the witnesses go silent.  I remember discussing social politics with post communist professors who emigrated to Canada and were working at a Canadian Uni, they were very insulator in their beliefs.  Firmly, convinced that everything that happened to them was forced on them by someone else.  Indeed, Putin has made a career out of convincing everyone in the former USSR that the USSR was OK and the West was the reason it did not work.  What is needed is a total defeat and occupation and an Allied Commission to force them look at their crimes like Eisenhower (sic) did with the "average" German at the end of WW2.  Unfortunately, the balance of power politics will mean that Croatia's European backers will accept a "little" changing of history in exchange for a shaky South Europe peace.  Such is the hallowed halls of political leadership where a moral man needs a shower after each decision!


----------



## George Wallace

Currently Croatia is trying to join the EU and NATO.  As such they have an image that they must clean up and policies to change.   Denial.  Perhaps.


----------



## cupper

You know, it sounds even better if you read it like you are making trouble for Moose and Squirrel.  ;D


----------



## noneck

Hopefully this revisionist bu**sh&t won't effect us next year, as a number of former C Coy ( and maybe 1-2 D Coy and B Coy) lads are going to make a trip back for the 20th anniversary. This gumball rally of ill disciplined, slightly inebriated and politically incorrect 40 year olds is going to be epic!

We are planning to start in Sector West, maybe stay at the Termal Hotel, some drinks at PiPi's and tour Daruvar, Toranj, The Ranch. Hit the Drag, Pacrac, Lipik and Okicani. The head to Sector South via the same route we took in 93 and stop in Plitvice Park. Then through to Kijevo, Knin, Gracac, Sveti Rok, Lovinac and the Medak area. 

We are from a bunch of different units that all had Italian Campaign service in WW2, so for the final few days we are looking at crossing the Adriatic and heading over to Ortona et al. 

This a year and a half away but we will definitely take a wack of pics and post them, there has even been some interest in documenting it via video. 

If anyone on the site has any pointers, places to go or stay give me a shout and we'll add it to the itinerary.

Cheers
Noneck


----------



## hr1u00

Hi guys,

If you think this document is one-side-point-of-view please read the document, wich is made in december 1994. for Security Councile of UN. The whole investigation is made by Canadian Army Major, and gues what - there is no evidence of ethnic cleansing, planed killing of civilians and ofcourse there is no word about "famous canadian battle", altough there was a sistematic destruction of houses and objects as prevention of serb forces to establish their front lines again for repeated destruction of Gospić city.
I'll qoute some key foundings :

_However, the majority (71%) of the located dead were military. Although not strictly comparable, this was a higher percentage of military casualties than the global figures in WWII, the Korean War, or the Vietnam War.

Further, the examinations done by the Serb authorities were unsatisfactory. They were extremely undetailed and were conducted in an unprofessional atmosphere, i.e., the supervising judge's drunkenness and corruptness.

Thus, conclusions reached in the preceding examinations are unreliable. As earlier mentioned, an independent examination of what material remains (Dr. Kirschner's report) also fails to disclose any convincing pattern.

Many civilians were fleeing in the company of retreating Serb soldiers, armed Serb civilians or were themselves armed. Thus, the actions of many Croat soldiers were possibly lawful and, at least, ambiguous. Much of the firing was at night. They may have believed they were firing on retreating non-surrendering enemy forces, which remain lawful targets. The law of war does not impose a standard of perfection on soldiers. It accepts that unfortunately civilians near military objectives may be incidentally killed without necessarily breaching the law of war. The inherent ambiguities surrounding this aspect of the Medak Pocket Operation make building a prosecution for unlawful targeting of civilians difficult. The evidence is not sufficiently reliable or clear to obtain a conviction.
Yet, even using a stringent standard, it is obvious from the many witnesses' experiences that Croatian forces fired on fleeing civilians, killing some. However, this action cannot be proved to be illegal. 

Care must be taken in relying upon local witnesses. They tend to be unreliable due to their extremely emotional attachment to their own community's cause and their demonization of the enemy. Witness "9" has given several versions of her experiences. While her versions are not inconsistent, they do not cover the same material, some of which it is surprising not to hear in all versions. Her testimony should be confirmed and carefully considered before presentation.
One or even two local witnesses may be insufficiently reliable to obtain a conviction.

Further, there is no strong unambiguous pattern of willful killing emerging from the evidence available to this point. Without such a pattern, it is impossible to affix criminal responsibility upon the Croat commanders. 

Clearly, assignment to command military troops is accompanied by broad authority and heavy responsibility. This has been true of all armies throughout recorded history. It is absurd, however, to consider a commander a murderer or rapist because one of his soldiers commits a murder or a rape.»

There are some suspicious circumstances and even some probable murders. However, no convincing pattern can be proved such that a commander can be held indirectly criminally responsible using the doctrine of command responsibility. _


----------



## hr1u00

noneck said:
			
		

> Hopefully this revisionist bu**sh&t won't effect us next year, as a number of former C Coy ( and maybe 1-2 D Coy and B Coy) lads are going to make a trip back for the 20th anniversary. This gumball rally of ill disciplined, slightly inebriated and politically incorrect 40 year olds is going to be epic!
> 
> We are planning to start in Sector West, maybe stay at the Termal Hotel, some drinks at PiPi's and tour Daruvar, Toranj, The Ranch. Hit the Drag, Pacrac, Lipik and Okicani. The head to Sector South via the same route we took in 93 and stop in Plitvice Park. Then through to Kijevo, Knin, Gracac, Sveti Rok, Lovinac and the Medak area.
> 
> We are from a bunch of different units that all had Italian Campaign service in WW2, so for the final few days we are looking at crossing the Adriatic and heading over to Ortona et al.
> 
> This a year and a half away but we will definitely take a wack of pics and post them, there has even been some interest in documenting it via video.
> 
> If anyone on the site has any pointers, places to go or stay give me a shout and we'll add it to the itinerary.
> 
> Cheers
> Noneck



Wellcome to Republic of Croatia Noneck 

Hi guys,

If you think previuos document is one-side-point-of-view please read the document, wich is made in december 1994. for Security Councile of UN. The whole investigation is made by Canadian Army Major, and gues what - there is no evidence of ethnic cleansing, planed killing of civilians and ofcourse there is no word about "famous canadian battle", altough there was a sistematic destruction of houses and objects as a prevention of serb forces to recapture and establish their front lines again for repeated destruction of Gospić city.
I'll qoute some key foundings from that official UN document:

_However, the majority (71%) of the located dead were military. Although not strictly comparable, this was a higher percentage of military casualties than the global figures in WWII, the Korean War, or the Vietnam War.

Further, the examinations done by the Serb authorities were unsatisfactory. They were extremely undetailed and were conducted in an unprofessional atmosphere, i.e., the supervising judge's drunkenness and corruptness.

Thus, conclusions reached in the preceding examinations are unreliable. As earlier mentioned, an independent examination of what material remains (Dr. Kirschner's report) also fails to disclose any convincing pattern.

Many civilians were fleeing in the company of retreating Serb soldiers, armed Serb civilians or were themselves armed. Thus, the actions of many Croat soldiers were possibly lawful and, at least, ambiguous. Much of the firing was at night. They may have believed they were firing on retreating non-surrendering enemy forces, which remain lawful targets. The law of war does not impose a standard of perfection on soldiers. It accepts that unfortunately civilians near military objectives may be incidentally killed without necessarily breaching the law of war. The inherent ambiguities surrounding this aspect of the Medak Pocket Operation make building a prosecution for unlawful targeting of civilians difficult. The evidence is not sufficiently reliable or clear to obtain a conviction.
Yet, even using a stringent standard, it is obvious from the many witnesses' experiences that Croatian forces fired on fleeing civilians, killing some. However, this action cannot be proved to be illegal. 

Care must be taken in relying upon local witnesses. They tend to be unreliable due to their extremely emotional attachment to their own community's cause and their demonization of the enemy. Witness "9" has given several versions of her experiences. While her versions are not inconsistent, they do not cover the same material, some of which it is surprising not to hear in all versions. Her testimony should be confirmed and carefully considered before presentation.
One or even two local witnesses may be insufficiently reliable to obtain a conviction.

Further, there is no strong unambiguous pattern of willful killing emerging from the evidence available to this point. Without such a pattern, it is impossible to affix criminal responsibility upon the Croat commanders. 

Clearly, assignment to command military troops is accompanied by broad authority and heavy responsibility. This has been true of all armies throughout recorded history. It is absurd, however, to consider a commander a murderer or rapist because one of his soldiers commits a murder or a rape.»

There are some suspicious circumstances and even some probable murders. However, no convincing pattern can be proved such that a commander can be held indirectly criminally responsible using the doctrine of command responsibility. _


----------



## hr1u00

Let go even further with official statemans and documents :

*There was no battle between Croats and UNPROFOR in Medak pocket:*

_There was no armed conflict between HV and UNPROFOR, although, Croatian side stalled retreat, was been said by ex officer of UNPROFOR Vagn Ove Moebjerg Nielsen during the Rahim Ademi and Mirko Norac trial, for war crimes in Medak pocket 1993.

Despite Canadian claims that their forces fought against Croats in the biggest battle since Korea war, and despite that they decorated whole infantry battalion, there was only one minor incident, said colonel Nielsen, ex military observer. *He had taken command of peace corps in ex Krajina in July 1993, and he claims that there was no any fighting.*
"When Canadians were positioned in front of Serbian forces, i think it was at 15th september, there was shooting on Canadian by Croat forces before we entered Medak pocket, but during the operation, there was no problem, all went smooth. I think that Croats stopped shooting, when they realised that they were shooting at UN."

*Nielsen also said that Canadians were not shooting back*, and he remembered that Cro side stalled their retreat, and that they during the first entrance in are did not alow passage, because as they claimed it was too dangerous.

Similar thing has said John John McGuinnes, Canadian officer.

After question about battle betveen Canada batt. and HV, he said that there was one or two shootouts, but there was no injured.
He also said that decorations were awarded for whole employement in Croatia, not only for participation in Medak pocket activity._

I hope you guys can accept this discussion established on officila UN reports and documents rather than ones established on ethnic prejudice stories without arguments.


----------



## OldSolduer

Twenty yers already. It seems like yesterday. Yes, pics are needed!

Have a fun trip!


----------



## hr1u00

Hi to you all ,

In my second shot I will try to point you, in a civilised maner , on a huge inconsistencies and discrepancies in the canadian story during the years and also beetween canadian insiders themself on the same incident. Focusing, for now only on the "the battle" itself.  My point is the canadian soldiers by using media have created "the battle" rather then minor incident as it was originally even according to their statemenst (about their reasons maybe later). I will use all publicly available official reports, statements and documents.
First of all you have to know there is no single evidence, report, document or a statement about "the bigest canadian battle since Korean war" from either of these resources :
- UNPROFOR Sector South HQ
- UNPROFOR HQ Croatia
- CANBAT HQ
- CANBAT soldiers statements in September 1993.
- CANBAT Commander Jim Calvin statement in September 1993.
- FREBAT HQ
- UN Military observers
- UN Civil police
- Commander Jean Cot
- UN Security Councile
- Serb HQ, field units or inteligence
- Croat HQ, field units or inteligence
- Human rights watch and similar organisations
- US State department
Amog all of these , there is only few  hardly mention the incident, reporting "minor incident" as sporadical firefigt or few shootouts. One reffering on firefight both sides (craoatian and serb) done on a CANBAT. Mostly given by few CANBAT members.
On the other hand most of these resources does not even mention such incident.
If anyone can provide some non-canadian official report on "the battle" ?


----------



## Teeps74

hr1u00 said:
			
		

> Hi to you all ,
> 
> In my second shot I will try to point you, in a civilised maner , on a huge inconsistencies and discrepancies in the canadian story during the years and also beetween canadian insiders themself on the same incident. Focusing, for now only on the "the battle" itself.  My point is the canadian soldiers by using media have created "the battle" rather then minor incident as it was originally even according to their statemenst (about their reasons maybe later). I will use all publicly available official reports, statements and documents.
> First of all you have to know there is no single evidence, report, document or a statement about "the bigest canadian battle since Korean war" from either of these resources :
> - UNPROFOR Sector South HQ
> - UNPROFOR HQ Croatia
> - CANBAT HQ
> - CANBAT soldiers statements in September 1993.
> - CANBAT Commander Jim Calvin statement in September 1993.
> - FREBAT HQ
> - UN Military observers
> - UN Civil police
> - Commander Jean Cot
> - UN Security Councile
> - Serb HQ, field units or inteligence
> - Croat HQ, field units or inteligence
> - Human rights watch and similar organisations
> - US State department
> Amog all of these , there is only few  hardly mention the incident, reporting "minor incident" as sporadical firefigt or few shootouts. One reffering on firefight both sides (craoatian and serb) done on a CANBAT. Mostly given by few CANBAT members.
> On the other hand most of these resources does not even mention such incident.
> If anyone can provide some non-canadian official report on "the battle" ?



This reads like an HDZ revisionist history lesson.  Are you serriously trying to re-write what happened at the Medak Pocket on a CANADIAN ARMY page?  Seriously?  You really need to rethink the audience you are trying to appeal to, because I sincerely doubt you will find anyone you can convert here.


----------



## OldSolduer

hr1u00 said:
			
		

> Hi to you all ,
> 
> In my second shot I will try to point you, in a civilised maner , on a huge inconsistencies and discrepancies in the canadian story during the years and also beetween canadian insiders themself on the same incident. Focusing, for now only on the "the battle" itself.  My point is the canadian soldiers by using media have created "the battle" rather then minor incident as it was originally even according to their statemenst (about their reasons maybe later). I will use all publicly available official reports, statements and documents.
> First of all you have to know there is no single evidence, report, document or a statement about "the bigest canadian battle since Korean war" from either of these resources :
> - UNPROFOR Sector South HQ
> - UNPROFOR HQ Croatia
> - CANBAT HQ
> - CANBAT soldiers statements in September 1993.
> - CANBAT Commander Jim Calvin statement in September 1993.
> - FREBAT HQ
> - UN Military observers
> - UN Civil police
> - Commander Jean Cot
> - UN Security Councile
> - Serb HQ, field units or inteligence
> - Croat HQ, field units or inteligence
> - Human rights watch and similar organisations
> - US State department
> Amog all of these , there is only few  hardly mention the incident, reporting "minor incident" as sporadical firefigt or few shootouts. One reffering on firefight both sides (craoatian and serb) done on a CANBAT. Mostly given by few CANBAT members.
> On the other hand most of these resources does not even mention such incident.
> If anyone can provide some non-canadian official report on "the battle" ?



Since you haven't learned anything other than to irritate us, see below:

Reported to Mods. Have a great day!!!


----------



## George Wallace

hr1u00 said:
			
		

> First of all you have to know there is no single evidence, report, document or a statement about "the bigest canadian battle since Korean war" from either of these resources :
> - UNPROFOR Sector South HQ
> - UNPROFOR HQ Croatia
> - CANBAT HQ
> - CANBAT soldiers statements in September 1993.
> - CANBAT Commander Jim Calvin statement in September 1993.
> - FREBAT HQ
> - UN Military observers
> - UN Civil police
> - Commander Jean Cot
> - UN Security Councile
> - Serb HQ, field units or inteligence
> - Croat HQ, field units or inteligence
> - Human rights watch and similar organisations
> - US State department



Sorry to break the news to you, but I think it highly unlikely that you, or anyone in the public, media, or government, would have access to any documents listed in the above organizations, that would be CLASSIFIED as SECRET or higher.  Your deductions are totally unfounded.





			
				hr1u00 said:
			
		

> Amog all of these , there is only few  hardly mention the incident, reporting "minor incident" as sporadical firefigt or few shootouts. One reffering on firefight both sides (craoatian and serb) done on a CANBAT. Mostly given by few CANBAT members.
> On the other hand most of these resources does not even mention such incident.
> If anyone can provide some non-canadian official report on "the battle" ?



Now you just contradicted yourself.  You said there was NO SINGLE EVIDENCE, and then said there was "Amog all of these , there is only few  hardly mention the incident...."    Make up your mind.


----------



## The Bread Guy

hr1u00 said:
			
		

> Hi to you all ,
> 
> In my second shot I will try to point you, in a civilised maner , on a huge inconsistencies and discrepancies in the canadian story during the years and also beetween canadian insiders themself on the same incident. Focusing, for now only on the "the battle" itself.  My point is the canadian soldiers by using media have created "the battle" rather then minor incident as it was originally even according to their statemenst (about their reasons maybe later). I will use all publicly available official reports, statements and documents.
> First of all you have to know there is no single evidence, report, document or a statement about "the bigest canadian battle since Korean war" from either of these resources :
> - UNPROFOR Sector South HQ
> - UNPROFOR HQ Croatia
> - CANBAT HQ
> - CANBAT soldiers statements in September 1993.
> - CANBAT Commander Jim Calvin statement in September 1993.
> - FREBAT HQ
> - UN Military observers
> - UN Civil police
> - Commander Jean Cot
> - UN Security Councile
> - Serb HQ, field units or inteligence
> - Croat HQ, field units or inteligence
> - Human rights watch and similar organisations
> - US State department
> Amog all of these , there is only few  hardly mention the incident, reporting "minor incident" as sporadical firefigt or few shootouts. One reffering on firefight both sides (craoatian and serb) done on a CANBAT. Mostly given by few CANBAT members.
> On the other hand most of these resources does not even mention such incident.
> If anyone can provide some non-canadian official report on "the battle" ?


Three words for you:

Were you there?

Some of the people reading & posting here _were_ there.


----------



## George Wallace

According to your profile:



> Rank: private
> Unit: 4. brigade HV



Privates are not often privy to the full picture of what is going on.  Referring back to my last post, Privates are also not likely to be accessing Classified Documents, which include archived Radio Logs, Operations Logs, Unit Diaries, etc.  

From what little we know, your credentials to be commenting accurately with any authority on this matter are sadly lacking.


----------



## Kat Stevens

George Wallace said:
			
		

> According to your profile:
> 
> Privates are not often privy to the full picture of what is going on.  Referring back to my last post, Privates are also not likely to be accessing Classified Documents, which include archived Radio Logs, Operations Logs, Unit Diaries, etc.
> 
> From what little we know, your credentials to be commenting accurately with any authority on this matter are sadly lacking.



Privates most likely weren't even born when Medak "allegedly" took place.  Stop telling those us who may have been there what happened.


----------



## Burrows

Hr1u00,

You may contact me via email in order to explain your intent here.  Until such time as you see fit to do so, your account will remain in read-only.

As has been said already, you're coming to a Canadian site to tell people that were there how it happened.  

If you would care to provide proof that you are who you claim to be (a member or former member of the Croatian 4 HV Brigade - which to my knowledge no longer exists and hasn't for awhile) as well as explain to me your intent towards this site, we will talk.  Failure to provide a believable answer will result in termination of your membership.

Regards,

Army.ca Staff


----------



## hr1u00

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Sorry to break the news to you, but I think it highly unlikely that you, or anyone in the public, media, or government, would have access to any documents listed in the above organizations, that would be CLASSIFIED as SECRET or higher.  Your deductions are totally unfounded.
> 
> 
> 
> Now you just contradicted yourself.  You said there was NO SINGLE EVIDENCE, and then said there was "Amog all of these , there is only few  hardly mention the incident...."    Make up your mind.



well first of all, nothing about Medak Pocket is or ever bein SECRET/CLASSIFIED especially after canadians testimoneys solders on National Commitee in Canada. Further more, CANBAT HQ SITREPS are no secret it as well as Final report UN Security Councile on Medak Pocket.
Second, I said there was no evidence on "the battle" as canadians decribed it, only few mentioning minor incident, if you read it carefuly.


----------



## hr1u00

further more, as I alredy said to your moderator I have no intention to disclosure my military identity and operations details I participated in, so for you I am just _4. brigade private_. And  maybe you dont know but we had number of operations much biger then Medak Pocket over 5 years of war, and we been in more dangerous situations and operations on monthly basis then canadian solder can imagine (no intention to disparage canadian army).
Also, on our forums we gain open minded disccussion even with serb veterans and via verce, hope you will reach that level soon, but I am very suprised by your untolerant reactions on other side point of view on this topic.

hope you will embraced open mind disccusion on this subject if you moderator allows me.


----------



## the 48th regulator

hr1u00 said:
			
		

> further more, as I alredy said to your moderator I have no intention to disclosure my military identity and operations details I participated in, so for you I am just _4. brigade private_. And  maybe you dont know but we had number of operations much biger then Medak Pocket over 5 years of war, and we been in more dangerous situations and operations on monthly basis then canadian solder can imagine (no intention to disparage canadian army).
> Also, on our forums we gain open minded disccussion even with serb veterans and via verce, hope you will reach that level soon, but I am very suprised by your untolerant reactions on other side point of view on this topic.
> 
> hope you will embraced open mind disccusion on this subject if you moderator allows me.



Hi,

Can you give us a link to these open files that are not secret?

It would help us to acieve the level of openess that you enjoy on your "Serb Forums".....(is it me or does that seem like an Oxymoron)  

dileas
t
ess


----------



## The Bread Guy

hr1u00 said:
			
		

> further more, as I alredy said to your moderator I have no intention to disclosure my military identity and operations details I participated in, so for you I am just _4. brigade private_. And  maybe you dont know but we had number of operations much biger then Medak Pocket over 5 years of war, and we been in more dangerous situations and operations on monthly basis then canadian solder can imagine (no intention to disparage canadian army).
> Also, on our forums we gain open minded disccussion even with serb veterans and via verce, hope you will reach that level soon, but I am very suprised by your untolerant reactions on other side point of view on this topic.
> 
> hope you will embraced open mind disccusion on this subject if you moderator allows me.


Shame you can't tell us if you were there at Medak - some of our folks here _were_ there, and it might be interesting to share notes.  Oh well....


----------



## OldSolduer

hr1u00 said:
			
		

> but I am very suprised by your untolerant reactions on other side point of view on this topic.
> 
> hope you will embraced open mind disccusion on this subject if you moderator allows me.



It seems to me that you are the one who is, as you say, untolerant. 

I tend not to tolerate people who attempt to re-write history.


----------



## hr1u00

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> Can you give us a link to these open files that are not secret?



Yes I can.
Final report on Medak Pocket for UN Security Councile in 1994. http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/comexpert/ANX/VII.htm

UNTV 1993 , Canadian Soldiers abot minor firefight with SA, direct and undirect firefight http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060016451

UNTV 1993 , Jim Calvin talks about sporadic firefight  and minor , D-Coy officer does not even mention the incident difficulties http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060016450,

Jean Cot in final report on action does not saying anything on the incident

John John McGuinnes, Canadian officer.
After question about battle betveen Canada batt. and HV, he said that there was one or two shootouts, but there was no injured.
He also said that decorations were awarded for whole employement in Croatia, not only for participation in Medak pocket activity. (on trial for Medak Pocket in Croatia)

There was no armed conflict between HV and UNPROFOR, although, Croatian side stalled retreat, was been said by ex officer of UNPROFOR Vagn Ove Moebjerg Nielsen during the Rahim Ademi and Mirko Norac trial, for war crimes in Medak pocket 1993.
Despite Canadian claims that their forces fought against Croats in the biggest battle since Korea war, and despite that they decorated whole infantry battalion, there was only one minor incident, said colonel Nielsen, ex military observer. He had taken command of peace corps in ex Krajina in July 1993, and he claims that there was no any fighting.
"When Canadians were positioned in front of Serbian forces, i think it was at 15th september, there was shooting on Canadian by Croat forces before we entered Medak pocket, but during the operation, there was no problem, all went smooth. I think that Croats stopped shooting, when they realised that they were shooting at UN."
Nielsen also said that Canadians were not shooting back, and he remembered that Cro side stalled their retreat, and that they during the first entrance in are did not alow passage, because as they claimed it was too dangerous.

CANBAT SITREP 1993-09-15/ 1600h - 1993-09-16/1600h
„ ..lots of shooting and explosions alogn front line NW to Medak…most of shooting registered as firefights…5 serb arty shells on Croat forces on Debela glava …5 croatian arty shells on Medak (serb HQ is in Medak)…CA shoots heavy machine guns on Medak ….

UNPROFOR daily Report for September 15th :
…both sides, croatian and serb, had SA (small arms) fire on front CANBAT lines. CANBAT returned fire so agressors stoped…no casulaties …


and so on and on...no word about 15 hours of "the battle"


----------



## hr1u00

but who were canadians in Medak Pocket. lets see :

Of its 875 soldiers (2PPCLI) , only 375 came from the regular unit: the rest were augmentees, 385 militia citizen soldiers and 165 from other regular force units. In fact, reserve soldiers made up 70% of rifle company strength during the mission due to the requirement for highly skilled and experienced regular soldiers in support and technical trade positions . This includes 7 out of the 12 platoon commanders who came from militia battalions as Reserve Entry Scheme Officers (RESO). Nevertheless the 2 PPCLI Battlegroup in Croatia contained the highest concentration of reserve soldiers on an operational mission to date. There was no time to properly exercise the companies, let alone the whole battalion...No one could know that the 2 PPCLI platoons would be called upon to gel together and go into action as a full battalion.
Alpha and Bravo Companies, arrived in the area (Sector South's Medak Pocket) from Sector West on September 7th 1993. just 48 hours befor Croatian ofensive started.

One Regular Force sergeant from ROTO 2 provided a view from platoon
level: “I had ten personnel in my section, including myself, two of which were Reg Force, seven of which
were reservists. Six of those seven, it was the very first time besides their general military training with the
reserves that they ever encountered any sort of operation with the military. So in actual fact I had civilians in
my section that worked as soldiers with minimal training. And I was only one of many section commanders
with the same responsibility.” Sgt Chris Byrne, testimony to Croatia BOI, 25 November 1999, p.15. (

http://veteranvoice.info/ARCHIVE/...battle" with  9. brigade on their teritory.


----------



## hr1u00

can anyone explain me how they could make such tourist photo on top of the row , just 150 meters from enenmy with wich they were engaged in the 15 hours battle ? http://www2.canada.com/vancouversun/photogalleries/template.html?topic=PTSD&g=1
I never saw such thing in my 5 years expirience in war in Croatia and BiH ...


----------



## hr1u00

One mor link on my statement there was no "The battle" 
book about war in croatia , author is serb general-major from general serb HQ
http://www.scribd.com/doc/2867332/Mr-Milisav-Sekulic-Knin-Je-Pao-U-Beogradu

some one shoul translate it on english, but there is no word abot "the battle" , wich was in front of serb lines according to Jim Calvin


----------



## armyvern

hr1u00 said:
			
		

> can anyone explain me how they could make such tourist photo on top of the row , just 150 meters from enenmy with wich they were engaged in the 15 hours battle ? http://www2.canada.com/vancouversun/photogalleries/template.html?topic=PTSD&g=1
> I never saw such thing in my 5 years expirience in war in Croatia and BiH ...



Yep. They were there. That's how they got a pic. They were there longer than 15 hours too. You sure that pic was taken in the middle of the battle? Or are you flapping your lips again?

You keep telling us you were there. Straight up: were you IN MEDAK during the time period in question? Got a pic to prove it yourself? Because I think you're full of shit. Stop being so evasive and openly answer the specific question that has been put to you more than once now. After all, you're the one claiming that "you" are the one wanting the "open" discussion. Out with it or bugger off and cease the trolling. Please.


----------



## hr1u00

one more question, 
how is possible that even French Company (CO was Jean Cot son) or French HQ did not report anything similar to incident altough they were in buffer zone too , along with canadians ?
once again picture on trenches was made around 8 o'clock in the morning according to C-Coy . According to Jim Calvin, C-Coy and others battle lasted till 8 o'clock.
How they knew "the battle" is over, and there is no more danger to sit on top of the so called trench, some of them even without helmets with enemy who wants to kill'em all , on 150 meters away ?


----------



## armyvern

hr1u00 said:
			
		

> one more question,
> how is possible that even French Company (CO was Jean Cot son) or French HQ did not report anything similar to incident altough they were in buffer zone too , along with canadians ?
> once again picture on trenches was made around 8 o'clock in the morning according to C-Coy . According to Jim Calvin, C-Coy and others battle lasted till 8 o'clock.
> How they knew "the battle" is over, and there is no more danger to sit on top of the so called trench, some of them even without helmets with enemy who wants to kill'em all , on 150 meters away ?



No answer eh? That omission confirms that YOU were not in Medak at the time. 

That actually answers it; you are a troll and nothing but. Apparently, you can spout insanity off, but only we have to answer questions. Not quite being very open are you?

Piss off.

[set to ignore/]


----------



## The Bread Guy

You've had your chance, hr1u00 - let's see if a bit more silence will help you learn your lesson.

Locked for the moment.

*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## Informationseeker

Hello!

Sorry for intruding, and perhaps this is totally out of place, but I promise I will get lost if anyone wants me to.

I am doing a small paper on the Medak Pocket battle, and I was wondering if any Veterans or experts related to this battle exist on this forum. I just wanted to ask a few non-intrusive questions on the Canadian role in this battle, as well as maybe get some interesting facts or details that I might not be able to anywhere else. Trust that I would not use you like Google -- There are tons of other resources out there, but I also know that Wikipedia and a few books can't give you the whole story from the perspective of someone who was actually there. 

Thanks!  

Anna


----------



## mariomike

Some discussions ( in case you have not already read them ) you may find of interest.

The Medak Pocket  
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/64.0

The Ghosts of Medak  
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21736.0

History Television Presents: The Battle of Medak Pocket  
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/66240.0/nowap.html

THE BATTLE OF MEDAK POCKET - NEW CBC DOCUMENTARY
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/65791.0/nowap.html


----------



## Informationseeker

Thank you!

I've looked through the Medak thread already existing on this forum, but I was more specifically looking for key players in the Canadian presence in the battle. I have found a couple names, but not a lot of information of why they are so significant. Specifically, Pvt. Peter LeBlanc, and Sgt. Rod Dearing.

Have you heard of them or any other like them?


----------



## Loachman

Hello, Anna.

That would be _*Pte*_ Peter LeBlanc. "Pvt" is short for "pervert".

Who are you, and why are you writing this paper? People tend to be a little suspicious of strangers asking questions.


----------



## noneck

<mod deleted>

A bunch of us from Charlie Coy are heading back this Sept for the 20th anniversary. 

Cheers 
Noneck





Mod note - some people may not want where they work in the open.


----------

