# Problems with Canadian Military I.D.?



## Jimmy C (14 Sep 2007)

I am on leave at the moment in Ontario and I was at The Beer Store yesterday to purchase some beer and I was asked to provide some I.D. The only piece of identification I had on me at the time was my military I.D. I handed it over to the cashier and he looked puzzled then pulled out a booklet with all different forms of I.D. in it. To my surprise there was no information on my card in the booklet and then he handed the I.D. back to me and said "sorry sir I cannot serve you" and that really frustrated me. I left the store embarrassed and ended up having my mother buy me the beer I desired. I was wondering if there is anyone else that has had a similar experience regarding people not acknowledging military I.D. as a valid form of identification. How much humiliation does a guy have to take? :-[


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## HItorMiss (14 Sep 2007)

You should have called over the Manager of the store at informed him that the Military ID is a FEDERAL ID I think perhaps he would have allowed you to buy the beer.

Also you may wish to contact The Beer Store and express your confusion as to why this happened perhaps they can enlighten you

 http://www.thebeerstore.ca/AboutUs/contact_us.asp


EDIT: Added link to Beer Store and follow on text


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## Jimmy C (14 Sep 2007)

Yeah I thought about that but the manager was not there. However I think I will go in again tomorrow and inform him that it is a federal piece of identification.


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## Michael OLeary (14 Sep 2007)

You can't blame the clerk for obeying the procedure he was required to follow.  The problem lies with the Liquor Commission not updating the information they provide to employees.

You can declare all you want that it's "Federal ID", they're not legally required to recognize it until their own 'ID identification' reference includes it.  In fact, I would expect they are legally required to refuse it, as they did.


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## patt (14 Sep 2007)

was this a tempary military id? ive had the same problem in the past not a biggy just that maybe the beer store needs to update their booklets. plus half the time the people who work there dont even look at the age on those id's anyways.


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## Nfld Sapper (14 Sep 2007)

Heck I had no problem returning to Canada from Europe I just showed my Military ID to the Custom Agent and was waved through.


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## Jimmy C (14 Sep 2007)

That was one thing I found frustrating was that the booklet was a 2007 copy so I thought that the military I.D. would have been in there. 

No it was not one of those laminated temporary I.D.'s it was the hard plastic one.


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## Rusty_Poth (14 Sep 2007)

I know I have tried to use my retirement card in the past and I get the old "Deer in the headlights" stare and a "sorry this will not do for picture ID!!!!!!"

I used to use my Military ID all the time and never had a problem, but most places prefer to use my drivers license.


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## Shamrock (15 Sep 2007)

Rusty_Poth said:
			
		

> I know I have tried to use my retirement card in the past and I get the old "Deer in the headlights" stare and a "sorry this will not do for picture ID!!!!!!"



You're retired and still get carded when buying beer?  What's your secret?


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## retiredgrunt45 (15 Sep 2007)

Damn I never get asked for ID anymore, makes you feel old.


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## GAP (15 Sep 2007)

retiredgrunt45 said:
			
		

> Damn I never get asked for ID anymore, makes you feel old.



It's even more frustrating when the young fools offer you "Seniors discount" and you're not there yet!!


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## armyvern (15 Sep 2007)

Kind of makes me giggle actually.

While your NDI20 is not apparently good enough to get you a beer at the Beer Store ...

That and a letter (all in Arabic I might add) managed to get me out of the Gulf, to Zagreb, to Frankfurt, to Pearson in 03 during the height of the dropping of the "mothers of all bombs". (since outdone by the Ruskies I hear)

Interesting part was when I landed at Pearson (thinking why the heck do all these people have their faces covered in surgical masks) and walked up to the counter ... the chick (about 20, blonde & blue-eyed -- you mostly think she was _hot_, but obviously not Arabic) asked for my passport. I have none says I. Why not says she? They wouldn't give it back says I. Who wouldn't? Can't tell you that, but I can show you this ...

Vern flops the Arabic hallway pass onto the counter, she glances over it & asks me what it says. I don't know says I -- I speak not Arabic. She picks up the phone ... makes a call ... Vern's thinking here comes immigration or whoever it is to throw me in some tiny dark room to strip-search me.

Golf cart pulls up. This the girl?? Yes, says she. Jump on says buddy ... I'll take you out back to get your luggage if you have any. Yep I do. Off we go ... whipping through the bowels that are Pearson. Find luggage (not yet loaded onto conveyor). Vern's thinking (yes, I know -- hard to believe) -- what could be next??

Takes me back out to arrivals in the terminal and drives me right to the exit door on the little golf cart, and says have a great day.

Vern wanders to luggage arrival section ... and walks up behind her family (who are now beginning to watch for her arriving through the gate with the others from the plane -- still without their luggage coming down the conveyor) and scares the shit out of them when she says "hi everyone, I'm home ..."

The next week, phone rings ... 2 AMU ... hey we've got this passport in on the last Airbus that belongs to you ...

Dammit all to hell, that means I have to go back when my leave is done. Frankfurt, was the ONLY spot I was given any hassle but I managed to charm my way through there too. That's a scary thought.

True story.


_Edited to add:_ And I still have that little Arabic hallway pass, framed and hanging in my office. One day I'll even have it translated.


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## exgunnertdo (15 Sep 2007)

The Beer Store/LCBO are Ontario Government , at least at arms length, are they not?  

I had difficulty getting my Ontario Driver's Licence using my Military ID, when I moved from Manitoba.  You need 1) your other province's DL - check; 2) proof of citizenship/residency - my Birth certificate (in maiden name, though) - check; 3) and proof that you are who you say you are, if the names on the first two are different.  I didn't have a passport at the time (expired).  My military ID, with photo and signature was not sufficient.  I tried to explain that a permanent military ID is as good a piece of ID as a passport or citizenship card to prove my identity, no dice.  They would have accepted an Ontario government employee ID, but not a military ID.  The only other acceptable way of proving my identity was with my marriage certificate.  OK, so I came back with my marriage certificate.  Unfortunately, I have only ever had the one issued by the church, not the official provincial one, and the church one wasn't good enough.  (In 15 years of marriage, the Ontario government was the only organization that didn't accept it as proof of name change, BTW).  So I had to order an official marriage certificate from Manitoba, wait for that to come in.

In the meantime, I went on the MTO website and wrote a (very polite) suggestion in their "ask a question, feedback" section that they consider military ID as a valid proof of identity, in addition to passports, citizenship cards, and Ontario Gov't employee ID.  Included my contact information and asked someone to get back to me.  Never heard a word from them.

Most places - "Government Issued Photo ID" is the norm.  Why is a military ID not automatically on that list in Ontario?


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## armyvern (15 Sep 2007)

Are not the Beer Stores in Ontario independently owned and operated??

The one I went to when posted up there, had a poster on the wall behind the cashiers ... and the NDI20 was on it; so was the temp ID (one with a pic & one with a fingerprint).

I also had no problem switching my drivers license over. Nor obtaining OHIP cards for my kids. My ID worked fine along with my NB provincial license for both (+ I had to show my mortgage paperwork -- to prove Ontario residential address -- to obtain the OHIP cards).

Perhaps the issue is smaller than it seems and is rather a problem relegated to a few local, uniformed, unupdated employees. IE, the Beer Store involved in this first incident was obviously guilty of not providing their employees with the latest up-to-date copy of authorized identification for use in Ontario. I think he said their copy was from a few years before (then the old-style mil ID would have been pictured in it ... guaranteed). That's not the employees fault, he was just doing his job; that's the management's screw up.

Walk into any corner store up there in Ontario and ask to see the booklet showing authorized IDs (they have them...if they sell smokes); I'll guarantee you that our IDs are in there (both permanent & temp). Unfortunately, the onus is on the management of the business to obtain up-to-date versions of these; obviously some management needs to be shot.


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## observor 69 (15 Sep 2007)

Rusty_Poth said:
			
		

> I know I have tried to use my retirement card in the past and I get the old "Deer in the headlights" stare and a "sorry this will not do for picture ID!!!!!!"
> 
> I used to use my Military ID all the time and never had a problem, but most places prefer to use my drivers license.



Yea that makes two of us. Moved to Toronto a few years ago from Kingston and as per habit pulled out my Can Force retired ID. I might as well have pulled out my membership in the Mickey Mouse club for all the impact it had. After a few experiences of glazed eyeballs I now use my Ontario drivers license and the new picture health card.

Also remember when we (NATO) were bombing Serbia ? Around that time, 1999, while having a chest x-ray I mentioned to the nurse that I was retired air Force. She replied that she was from Serbia. Next topic. !!


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## exgunnertdo (15 Sep 2007)

Regarding Drivers Licences, they changed the rules in Jan 06, and I was trying to change mine in February.  If I had tried to do it in early Jan, my MB Drivers Licence would have been enough, but not after the new rules.


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## Petard (15 Sep 2007)

Sounds like some things in Ont have not got any better with respect to the military

Many, many moons I go I ran into this in of all the places the Legion in North Bay
I went on New Year's morning as newly minted gunner me in unifrom to join my uncle C (a WW II veteran) to bring in the new year proper.
But big bubba at the door asked for an age of majority card or proper ID, when I proudly produced my military ID, his response was (and it still burns me): "I don't feckin care if you're in da Harmy, I just asked for some proper ID, got anything else? No? Blow!"
Never did bother going back to that Legion


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## armyvern (15 Sep 2007)

What?? I've met you!! And you still don't look a day over 21. How could this have happened years ago??


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## Old Sweat (15 Sep 2007)

Funny, my ID card worked for me in Ontario when I was way younger. The last time I was asked, I was 27 and the drinking age was 21. Let me be an example to you all, especially you, Edward, of the benefits of clean living.

Not only that, in 2005 I was asked for proof of age in Texas when I purchased a case of beer. In this case I am assuming that the computor kicked out a randon 'check proof of age message.' Mind you, it might be another testimony to clean living, or a defective gene pool.


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## GAP (15 Sep 2007)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Funny, my ID card worked for me in Ontario when I was way younger. The last time I was asked, I was 27 and the drinking age was 21. Let me be an example to you all, especially you, Edward, of the benefits of clean living.
> 
> Not only that, in 2005 I was asked for proof of age in Texas when I purchased a case of beer. In this case I am assuming that the computor kicked out a randon 'check proof of age message.' Mind you, it might be another testimony to clean living, or a defective gene pool.



or lots of makeup and kidee's clothes..hmmmm......


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## Petard (15 Sep 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> What?? I've met you!! And you still don't look a day over 21. How could this have happened years ago??



Vern, you sweetie, just for that, next time if I meet up with you in a watering hole somewhere, and you coin me, I won't even take mine out.


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## TCBF (15 Sep 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> ... but I managed to charm my way through there too. ...



- This website must have a "Charm Filter" built into it then!  We should see if we can disable it...

 ;D

- Just kidding.  I actually enjoyed your tale.


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## willy (15 Sep 2007)

Here's a weird thing that happened to me at the Canex in Kingston a while back:

I went in to buy a pack of smokes and presented my BC drivers' license when the clerk carded me.  She said there was no way she could sell me the cigarettes.  I asked why.  She said that she could only accept Ontario-issued ID.  I hauled out my military ID, and after a while she finally accepted that, but only begrudgingly.  She seemed to think that it was a rule imposed by the government of Ontario: Ontario ID only, and if you don't have it then TS.  Now obviously that isn't the case, but there was no convincing her otherwise at the time.

Another thing that happened near Kingston:

A buddy of mine and I went to the Casino in Gananoque one weekend.  He had a Saskatchewan drivers' license.  The security guard at the door took one look at it, announced that it was a fake ID, and told my buddy that he was confiscating it.  We ended up having to call the cops in order to get the dude's license back, and even after the cops showed up and returned his license the security guy still wouldn't let us in.

What I take from those two instances is that it's all about the individual you're dealing with.  You get a moron behind the counter, you're going to have problems no matter what.


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## Rusty_Poth (15 Sep 2007)

I have used my retirement card in Vegas!

We went to Madame Touseau's (Sp?) in the Venetian and it was Veterans/Rememberance day and they were allowing former and current military in for free or half price or something to that effect, anywayI asked if it applied to Canadians and of course they had to get the manager but they accepted it after some discussion, I said that the sign never mentioned anything about foriegn military.....


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## Mattd (15 Sep 2007)

Jimmy C said:
			
		

> I am on leave at the moment in Ontario and I was at The Beer Store yesterday to purchase some beer and I was asked to provide some I.D. The only piece of identification I had on me at the time was my military I.D. I handed it over to the cashier and he looked puzzled then pulled out a booklet with all different forms of I.D. in it. To my surprise there was no information on my card in the booklet and then he handed the I.D. back to me and said "sorry sir I cannot serve you" and that really frustrated me. I left the store embarrassed and ended up having my mother buy me the beer I desired. I was wondering if there is anyone else that has had a similar experience regarding people not acknowledging military I.D. as a valid form of identification. How much humiliation does a guy have to take? :-[



Hello Jimmy C and everyone else who may read this.

I actually work as alcohol enforcement for major events in Toronto (Rogers Centre - Baseball, Concerts, Football, etc). In direct response to The Beer Store incident do not blame the clerk, the manager, or The Beer Store. The problem is the actual book that was used to check (it is one standard book used everywhere). The book has the Canadian Armed Forces ID pictured wrong in two different versions of the book. The first error was that the Canadian Armed Force ID was listed as an United States Military ID, so the index of the book never actually listed the Canadian Armed Forces ID. This was later "fixed" in an updated version of the book; The book listed the Canadian Armed Forces ID in the "fixed" version with the wrong ID colour. This issue has been present for over a year now.

Unless the person actually has seen a Canadian Military ID badge before from a friend, family member, or general research I do not think they would know what it looks like. This happens once a day with with any event that is going on in the Rogers Centre. Please, everyone please do not take offense if buying alcohol and you get a funny look when presenting your ID. I hope this post has shed some light on why The Beer Store may have acted in the way they did.

Edit: Just seen this.



> That was one thing I found frustrating was that the booklet was a 2007 copy so I thought that the military I.D. would have been in there.



Yes the book says 2007 however it is an exact copy of the 2006 book before the attempted fix that was later released. I will look in the book tomorrow at work, in the hopes of getting more information back to everyone.


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## Private Parts (16 Sep 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Are not the Beer Stores in Ontario independently owned and operated??



Sort of.  From http://www.thebeerstore.ca/AboutUs/Corporate.asp:



> The Beer Store is owned by three Ontario brewers: Labatt, Molson and Sleeman. While the company is private, the nature of the industry means that laws and regulations impact our business. As a result, The Beer Store maintains a close working relationship with the Government of Ontario through the Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario (AGCO) and the Ministry of Consumer and Business Services. Through these agencies, the Ontario Government regulates issues such as minimum age for purchase, hours of sale, selling price, labeling and product integrity, and approval of store locations.


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## CADPAT SOLDIER (16 Sep 2007)

I once knew of a man who bought his beer underage with his military ID, that in fact stated his actual birthday, but because the date was so hard to find and that pretty litle girl at the counter was so easy to fool it always worked. 
"Where's the birthday"
"its military ID, you have to be 18 to be in the military"
"Ohhh, ok"


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## Strike (17 Sep 2007)

> with the wrong ID colour



There are several different colours to DND ID, depending on if the person is military, non-, retired, etc.  Perhaps those who make up the book should get a copy of the poster the commissionaires have in their roosts and use it as a reference.


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## Sig_Des (17 Sep 2007)

Future Unknown said:
			
		

> I once knew of a man who bought his beer underage with his military ID, that in fact stated his actual birthday, but because the date was so hard to find and that pretty litle girl at the counter was so easy to fool it always worked.
> "Where's the birthday"
> "its military ID, you have to be 18 to be in the military"
> "Ohhh, ok"



So basically, fraudulently using military documents for illegally obtaining alcohol while a minor.


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## Command-Sense-Act 105 (17 Sep 2007)

Des, I think you're just upset you never thought of that line before... ;D


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## Sig_Des (17 Sep 2007)

CSA 105 said:
			
		

> Des, I think you're just upset you never thought of that line before... ;D



Nah, I was legal when I joined. I had to obtain my alcohol different ways


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## TN2IC (17 Sep 2007)

Future Unknown said:
			
		

> I once knew of a man who bought his beer underage with his military ID, that in fact stated his actual birthday, but because the date was so hard to find and that pretty litle girl at the counter was so easy to fool it always worked.
> "Where's the birthday"
> "its military ID, you have to be 18 to be in the military"
> "Ohhh, ok"




I would "NEVER" done that!  :


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## TN2IC (17 Sep 2007)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> Nah, I was legal when I joined. I had to obtain my alcohol different ways




Ok.. telling the Mess bartender, it's on the RSM's tab doesn't work either.  ;D

Now Commanding Officer.. that's a different story.


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## Private Parts (17 Sep 2007)

Have a look at para 6:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/cmj/sentence/2002/2002ecm068.s.pdf


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## Mattd (18 Sep 2007)

Hey guys and gals I'm back with an update!

First sorry that I did not post about it yesterday like I said I would, but I had to do more research and confirm my answers. 

The 2006 ID book used (North American IDs book name) does not have the Canadian Military IDs in it. An update was released that would see the addition of the Canadian Forces ID cards in it. To my surprise the company did not inform major buyers of this error, and charge for the extra pages. That I find to be totally unacceptable as it was the error of the company who makes the book to exclude Canadian Forces ID cards from their book. I learned that information in the previous line when I informed my manager that Canadian Forces ID was not in the 2006 ID book. He did not believe me at first, but when he looked through the book and could not find it he went ape shit. 

That brings us to today, the 2007 book contains the same error of no Canadian Forces ID in the book. Upon seeing that my Manager (from above) went ape shit again. After a day of researching we finally where able to acquire blank copies of the Canadian Military Active Member ID card (Plastic version and Paper Laminated version). So I am happy to say that the Rogers Centre now has copies one piece of Military ID at every Beer Pump in the building. I know its not much in the grand scale of things, but I think its a small victory now knowing that our Troops won't be embarrassed any longer at the Rogers Centre now.


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## geo (18 Sep 2007)

Considering that our current ID cards look just like the COSTCO membership cards...... what's the point?

the old CAFIB20 used to be laminated in plastic & had a tamperproof signature block as protection.  Our current one has no security


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## Greymatters (18 Sep 2007)

This is quite an interesting thread.  Are fake ID cards such a significant problem in Ontario that they need a book to check which ones are real?


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## geo (18 Sep 2007)

with drinking age in Quebec is 18 and Ontario's is 21, there are some who decry the unfairness of it all.


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## PMedMoe (18 Sep 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> with drinking age in Quebec is 18 and Ontario's is 21, there are some who decry the unfairness of it all.



Ontario's drinking age is 19: See Para 4


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## geo (18 Sep 2007)

heh.... still one year younger in Quebec.
Ontario kids that live near the border can appreciate the difference and find ways to beat the system


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## PMedMoe (18 Sep 2007)

Certainly can.  I remember enjoying our summer trip to PEI the year I was 18.  ;D  Besides, it's not "beating" the system so much, as it is legal to drink in Quebec if you are 18.  Now, if you get drunk and then come back over the border, I wonder, is there any consequences?  Also, is there a hassle in Quebec with military ID?


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## CADPAT SOLDIER (18 Sep 2007)

I'm crying unfairness! I lived in Winnipeg and was perfectly legal until i crossed an imaginary line and moved to Thunder Bay and became a child again.
It would be worst if i wasn't milking $70000 in free flight training from the Ontario Government. 

... ah well... at least I still have my Military ID.....  ;D


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## geo (18 Sep 2007)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Also, is there a hassle in Quebec with military ID?


Problem with the ID card - NOPE
If you get drunk and arrested DUI or disturbing the peace? OH YEAH!
then the local police reports it to the Military police, I along with many others get wind of the incident/arrest... and then the fun starts


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## Emenince Grise (29 Sep 2007)

Curious. My local UPI gas station has a list of acceptable ID's on the wall behind the cashier. Yes, Forces ID is there in living colour.


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## GK .Dundas (30 Sep 2007)

My Uncle had to cash a cheque some years back was about to attend  a graduation parade at Depot in Regina, he walked in full dress scarlets not only did they give him a hard time after he showed his work ID,seems they preferred he Sask drivers licence. ignorance must indeed be bliss I can't think of two many people who would piss off the Corps Sargent Major of the RCMP


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## geek (30 Oct 2007)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> This is quite an interesting thread.  Are fake ID cards such a significant problem in Ontario that they need a book to check which ones are real?



I wouldn't call them a significant problem but the easier ID scams rely on the bartender/bouncer being unfamiliar with a particular id. I can understand why the first reaction is to reject unfamiliar IDs. I'd hope that a Forces ID is familiar at most places.

The easiest scam around here is to get an official-looking id that doesn't try to be a real id, but has a bunch of seals and holograms. I sometimes see cards with a US state name, DOB, address, photo, signature and a seal and hologram. Doesn't actually say that it's a driver's license or look anything like the real state license, but some people try to buy booze with them. Or an id from a nonexistent school or club. Just wandering near UofT I've discovered five places that will do these sorts of id cards and actually advertise it.

I can't imagine it works too well around here.


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## medic65726 (31 Oct 2007)

Wow, I believe you are grossly misinformed. Private citizens, as Security Guards/Bouncers/Doormen are have NO legal powers of serach or seizure. A serch can be requested persuant to entry, but if refused there is no repercussion available besides barring entry. While uttering a forged document is an indictable offence in Canada, your only course of action would be to effect a Citizens Arrest as you found the person committing an indicatble offence, and immidiately infomr the police. Also, if you are wrong about the ID, you could be open to Civil Litigation or Criminal charges related to forcible confinement and any force that was used. Personally if someone tried to sieze my legit ID I would be contacting the Police in regards to a theft charge. Of course you have the right to restrict entry to anyone you want, but I'd love to see the legislation that obligates you to sieze fake IDs.

Note:
Charges also possible are-
"Personation with intent"
403. Every one who fraudulently personates any person, living or dead,
(a) with intent to gain advantage for himself or another person,
(b) with intent to obtain any property or an interest in any property, or
(c) with intent to cause disadvantage to the person whom he personates or another person,
is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years or an offence punishable on summary conviction.
R.S., 1985, c. C-46, s. 403; 1994, c. 44, s. 27.

"Improper documentation"
(12) No person shall present as evidence of his or her age any documentation other than documentation that was lawfully issued to him or her.
Liquor Licence Act, R.S.O. 1990, chapter L.19; Section 30, Sub-section (1)


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## IntlBr (31 Oct 2007)

I've had mine accepted as a valid ID, but mine has been expired since February 2007.

My unit (PRes) has refused making me a new one on many, many occaisions.

Part of the many gripes I have with the BOR.

Grrrrr


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## medic65726 (31 Oct 2007)

What I meant was that laws pertaining to search & seizure are generally found in the same place.
Seizing ID that is believed to be fake may seem like the right thing to do, but not only is there no legal obligation to sieze it, there is no legal right to do it (althought there was a proposed ammendment to the LLA, that as far as I know never passed). Now if it is fake, people are unlikely to persue the issue, but you are still committing a theft. Legally you might arrest the person under the CC (sec 494) and hold them for Police but that is all. And if all this is based on your BELIEF that the ID was fake and you are wrong, that is where the liability lies.


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## Greymatters (1 Nov 2007)

Medic65726 said:
			
		

> What I meant was that laws pertaining to search & seizure are generally found in the same place.
> Seizing ID that is believed to be fake may seem like the right thing to do, but not only is there no legal obligation to sieze it, there is no legal right to do it (althought there was a proposed ammendment to the LLA, that as far as I know never passed). Now if it is fake, people are unlikely to persue the issue, but you are still committing a theft. Legally you might arrest the person under the CC (sec 494) and hold them for Police but that is all. And if all this is based on your BELIEF that the ID was fake and you are wrong, that is where the liability lies.



The precedent for seizure of a person's card was set by big box stores that seized expired or fake credit cards and fake debit cards, for turning over to investigative units or public security forces.  It may be technically 'against the law' to seize someone's property, like a fake identification (which in itself is against the law), but its a little late to protest it since seizure of fake ID has been in practice for at least 20 years.  Its a policy that has been allowed to be enforced by numerous establishments across North America and so far no court case has halted the action, and I havent read of any police departments charging stores/bars for enforcing that policy. So far I know only California has an actual law that requires store operators to seize fake identification, with efforts to enact the same laws in Illinois, Pennsylvania, and Washington, DC.  I havent seen it passed for anyplace in Canada yet, but if the insurance fraud groups have their say, it wont be long before we see it porposed here.   

Example 1: http://www.cordweekly.com/cordweekly/myweb.php?hls=10034&news_id=1055
Employee enforces company policy. 

Example 2: http://ca.answers.yahoo.com/answers2/frontend.php/question?qid=20071006010903AAjruMM
Not sure where they came up with that ruling, looks only like popular consensus.

Example 3: http://www.towncrieronline.ca/main/main.php?direction=viewstory&storyid=6179&rootcatid=&rootsubcatid=
More justification for bar owners - they would rather face $25,000 in court fees for wrongful deprivation of property than face up to $500,000 for being caught with having underage drinkers in their bars.


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## 241 (1 Nov 2007)

Piper said:
			
		

> I can also confiscate anything they have on them that we don't allow in (weapons, booze etc) again, if they want to come in. I can also poor out booze and turn weapons over to the police (never found a weapon yet though, thanks goodness).



From www.dictionary.com :

con·fis·cate      /ˈkɒnfəˌskeɪt, kənˈfɪskeɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kon-fuh-skeyt, kuhn-fis-keyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -cat·ed, -cat·ing, adjective 
–verb (used with object) 1. to seize as forfeited to the public domain; appropriate, by way of penalty, for public use.  
2. to seize by or as if by authority; appropriate summarily: The border guards confiscated our movie cameras.  
–adjective 

As far as I can tell by the definition is that confiscate means take without consent, I am sure if you tried that you could have theft charges filed against you, if you tell them that if they wanna come in they have to _give_ it to you them that's not really confiscating it so much as being given, as for pouring out booze & turning weapons over to the police (which would have been giving to you for you to not to have broken any laws your self) well anyone can do that... Haha  ;D


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## garb811 (2 Nov 2007)

Credit cards, drivers licenses etc are not owned by the individual but rather issued by the bank, provincial government etc.  So if the institution that actually owns the item in question sends out a directive asking for stolen/expired/fraudulent cards be seized by a vendor, it isn't theft.  Same idea as with your uniform.  You are issued it for wear and have financial liability for loss or damage but you do not assume defacto ownership of it to do with it as you please.

For items surrendered at the door as a provision of gaining entry to an establishment, they are not being "confiscated" but rather held for safekeeping.  Should the guy return to the door and ask for his item back, you are legally obligated to return it, unless it's a weapon or another illegal item you've turned over to the police.  If the item is legal for someone to possess which you do not allow to have carried it due to it's potential use as a weapon or licencing issues, such as a pair of scissors or a unopened bottle of beer, if you refuse to return it on demand when the patron exits your establishment you are committing theft.  Don't be confused about your legal liability being waived simply because it's something which has been ongoing for years without anyone raising a fuss.

_Edit: Slight grammar fix._


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## The_Falcon (2 Nov 2007)

I have worked as a doorman on occasion at my friends bar, and I have seized id's that I knew to be fake/false.  When I work at a Slot Casino (OLG) all security officers had to take this 2 course on spotting fraudulent ids.  One of the more common ones I keep seeing is a red and white card, that says Ontario Canada ID (with both the provincial and federal government logo on it).  Do I give it back hell no, I very bluntly explain to the idividual what kinds of laws they are breaking and the penalties the come with them for using, said fake id's, and if they want to discuss the matter with the police I would be more than happy too.  That shuts them up right quick.


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## PO2FinClk (2 Nov 2007)

IntlBr said:
			
		

> Part of the many gripes I have with the BOR.


Your post has me confused as it is responsibility of the MP Section to issue new ID cards, not any Base Orderly Room.


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