# Army language



## P Kaye (8 Feb 2005)

Something I've noticed about the Army Reserve culture... the rampant use of the word "f***k".
Sometimes I find it almost comical... there was a course instructor who always sounded like he was acting out that Robin Williams radio skit about the use of the "f" word.  But it leads me to wonder... where does this come from?  
When I joined, I found my language went all to sh** right away.  I started swearing all the time, at home, at school, everywhere.  It just rubbed-off on me.  On my BMQ I realised that almost every second word out of everyone's mouth was "f**k", so I started making fun of it (making f**k literally every second word out of my mouth).  
I had to make a serious effort to stop swearing so much.  Actually, I make an effort now to stop swearing so much, even within the Army.
Is this a reserve phenomena?  Or is it the same in the regular force?  What about the Air Force and Navy?
I've never encountered it to such a ridiculous degree anywhere in the civilian world, and I'm just curious as to why it seems so different in the military.  Maybe if I hung around a construction site or firehall for a day I'd notice the same thing...
Comments?


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## Greywolf (8 Feb 2005)

I would say it is the same in the Reg Force.   I think the word is used a lot especially in basic training for shock value.   After that, people just start swearing because they hear the word so much.   But I think it's possible to restrain oneself.   I don't use the "f***"   word or any other swear word much, I would say hardly ever, unless there's something that Really   :threat: pisses me off.   

I think it doesn't reflect well on CF personnel when civilians hear that every 2nd word out of soldiers' mouth is the "F" word.


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## P Kaye (8 Feb 2005)

Agreed.  Some people think I may be too uptight about professionalism, but I don't think we can ignore the real power that public opinion has over the military.  The public vote for govenments who set budgets and dictate defense policy.
I think the Cadet programme is great because the cadets I have seen are almost always extremely polite and respectful compared to many of todays youth.
Unfortunately I think the manners of reserve soldiers could sometimes use some improvement.  It is very important to me that the public see soldiers as "professionals".  For that reason I think it's vital that we behave in the most professional manner possible when the public might hear us.
That being said, when out in the field in training, a good "what the F*** are you doing???" is sometimes very effective!


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## Bruce Monkhouse (8 Feb 2005)

Signature: 
PROFANITY IS THE INABILITY OF A FEEBLE MIND TO FULLY EXPRESS ITSELF! 

...I guess my feeling is pretty obvious..............


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## Navalsnpr (8 Feb 2005)

Years ago it was common to hear profanity just about anywhere in the CF.

This day and age with Sensitivity training and all, the usage has definitely decreased substantially. Obviously when stopping a potential safety infraction, you can get good shock value by using it like P Kaye indicated.

People have to realize that if it is used for shock value to cease a potentially action, they shouldn't take it personally!!


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## P Kaye (8 Feb 2005)

Agreed.  What people also have to realise is that if it's going to be effective as shock-value, we can't "wear-it-out" by using that kind of language all the time, in every conversation!


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## Infanteer (8 Feb 2005)

I have a horrible potty mouth.   So do most soldiers I know.   When I was training with the Brits, at the course smoker each national contingent did skits - both the Brits and the Dutch noticed how much the F-word was used in our normal vocabulary and poked fun at it.

Don't think this is an unusual or new thing.   Just reading Fighting For Canada: Seven Battles, 1758-1945 and I caught the following excerpt regarding Canadian soldiers in the Boer War:

_"An Australian who also served in the 1st Mounted Infantry Brigade devoted considerable space in "Tommy Cornstalk", his book about the Australians in South Africa, to highly laudatory and colourful stories about Canadians in and out of action.   *Many observers, including Rudyard Kipling, commented on their picturesque and highly profane language*, and they also earned a reputation as enthusiastic and opportunistic foragers (that is, looters).   There is little doubt that the Canadians, with their wide-brimmed Stetsons and U.S. Army surplus McClellan saddles, were recognized and respected by Boer and Briton alike."

Brian A Ried, "For Gods sake...save you Guns!", Action at Leliefontein 7 November 1900" in Fighting for Canada, pg 198._


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## infamous_p (8 Feb 2005)

yup ive noticed it too

im currently on a weekend BMQ and every second word out of my instructor's mouth is f*** this and f*** that

literally, every second word. sometimes twice in a row! like to the point where some sentences dont even make sense.

its definitely changed my civilian language for the worse as well


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## P Kaye (8 Feb 2005)

I know what you mean... I once listened to a PLQ instructor talking to his students... he would preface EVERYTHING he said by "F**ing...".  It was his replacement for "um".  Sometimes during a pause when he was thinknig about what to say next, he'd just subconciously say "...f**ING....".  I actually found  myself laughing to myself when I heard this guy talk.
Sometimes I think that when I get a command position someday, or am a course officer, I will actively try to discourage such language, saying it is not acceptable for the "workplace".  But then sometimes I think this would be impossible to acheive, and that all my troops would just think i am on some kind of high-horse.
What do you guys think?  Would you respect an officer who outwardly tried to discourage this kind of language within his command authority, or would you think he should keep it to himself if he doesn't like it?


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## Infanteer (8 Feb 2005)

P Kaye said:
			
		

> What do you guys think? Would you respect an officer who outwardly tried to discourage this kind of language within his command authority, or would you think he should keep it to himself if he doesn't like it?



Telling your soldiers how to think and talk wouldn't go over well.   You'd just be seen as some PC bum trying to "socialize" them.

How about applying the principle of "Lead by Example".   Don't be so vulgar in your own speech and perhaps your subordinates will follow up - although I doubt it, because creative vocabulary is a deeply institutional thing in the Army.

Hey, there is nothing really wrong with using profanity.   Just look at "Colonel Glover Johns Leadership Principles" .

*11. There is a salient difference between profanity and obscenity; while a leader employs profanity (tempered with discretion), he never uses obscenities.*


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## P Kaye (8 Feb 2005)

I'm not sure how much of the "tempered with discretion" actually goes on sometimes 

What is "PC" ??


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## Infanteer (8 Feb 2005)

PC = Politically Correct


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## Armymedic (8 Feb 2005)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Telling your soldiers how to think and talk wouldn't go over well.  You'd just be seen as some PC bum trying to "socialize" them.



There was a supervisor who would discourage the use of the word Gay with threats of administrative and disciplinary action. The use by which he disapproved of was not the use as per definition:

a. Of, relating to, or having a sexual orientation to persons of the same sex. 
b. Showing or characterized by cheerfulness and lighthearted excitement; merry. 
c. Bright or lively, especially in color: a gay, sunny room. 
d. Given to social pleasures. 
e. Dissolute; licentious.

but more along a general "army" term describing any situation or circumstance that was:
a. wrong,
b. illogical,
c. inconvenient,
d. lacking common sense, or
e. stupid or just plain dumb.

With his somewhat excessive use of profanity, it was a perceived double standard that his subordinates tolerated because they had to.


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## Jarnhamar (8 Feb 2005)

Saying F**k isn't any better than saying Fuck in my opinion. Your not really fooling anyone.

I'd agree though. It's way too over used by reservists.   I don't have a problem with it at work or in the field.

It's when your in public when it becomes inappropiate.   I have no problems with telling soldiers to watch their language in public.   It can get pretty bad around kingston.


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## B.McTeer (8 Feb 2005)

When i was in cadets and we were around reserve or reg force personal we would NEVER swear. cause one time i said "oh my F***ing god what in the F*** hell is he doing" and i was referring to a youth cadet who didn't have any idea what he was doing and an reg force officer just let me have it, mind you a couple potty words cam out of his mouth too, or maybe he was just having a bad day or something i don't know.

B.McTeer


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## big bad john (8 Feb 2005)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Signature:
> PROFANITY IS THE INABILITY OF A FEEBLE MIND TO FULLY EXPRESS ITSELF!


Such is the motto of most British NCO's during training that I have met.  Example: "You, that man there.  YOU YES YOU!  What do you think you are doing?  Do you want me to pound your pointy, pointy head into the hard, hard ground?"  Not a curse to be heard and very effective.


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## Chief Clerk (8 Feb 2005)

Sometimes I think using this type of language shows a complete lack of intelligence or education, and the user  (especially if a Snr NCO) should maybe go back and take a few more leadership courses and maybe even a basic psychology course or two.  If you cannot win a persons heart and mind without using foul language, and your a Snr NCO (with some Time In), maybe its time to look for a new career.  I remember as a young recruit wondering why the instructor even had to sink to such stupidity - and then I realized he really did not have the "skills" to attempt other methods.  Just my thoughts - hey this is not only ARMY language, its just as bad or worse in the Navy and AirForce!
I believe in being physically tough on all CF pers, but not verbally - this proves squat!


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## honestyrules (8 Feb 2005)

Being a frenchman, when i started to speak English at my home unit, obviously i learned with the boys.... and i got that bad habit. F*** all the time! i had to work hard to get rid of this, that's for sure. I used to use that word to fill the "gap"! Now that my vocabulary in my second language gets better, i have more options!

Having to promote a good image of the military to civilians, we have to put some effort into it!!!!!

Honesty...


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## honestyrules (8 Feb 2005)

That being said, i used to swear and curse a lot in french too...

Honesty


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## Redeye (8 Feb 2005)

big bad john said:
			
		

> Such is the motto of most British NCO's during training that I have met.   Example: "You, that man there.   YOU YES YOU!   What do you think you are doing?   Do you want me to pound your pointy, pointy head into the hard, hard ground?"   Not a curse to be heard and very effective.



Our ex-RM UTA Sgt very rarely swears, but has an ability to make you feel two foot small with the most innocuous phrases.  When he calls me a "pumpkinhead" for depending on someone else to sort something out for me, I really truly feel like I've blown it.


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## big bad john (8 Feb 2005)

Effective language is what it is called!


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## pbi (8 Feb 2005)

I am reminded of the Marlon Brando line from _Apocalypse Now_: "They send young men out to bomb hospitals, but they won't let them paint "F*ck" on the side of their airplanes".

Let's not get too self-righteous about bad language. Some of the most capable Inf WOs and Sgts Maj I have ever had the pleasure to serve with (including on operations) had mouths on them like sewers. To say that these people were incapable, feeble-minded, lacked leadership ability, etc. is in my experience simply not true. They grew up in an Army in which that was SOP. I found, for example, that when I attended USMC C&SC at Quantico, I had to restrain my language because US officers just did not swear like we would. (That is not necessarily the case here in Afgh-in the G3 shop in CJTF76 there is a big 1940's style poster that says "_How About a Big Steaming Cup of  Shut the F*ck Up_?" (without the asterisk).

I use profanity only selectively at work. I may insert a word now and then for emphasis: it makes the point. Of course, you have to tune your language to your audience: if we are briefing the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce, for example, I am a model of linguistic rectitude. ^-^. I tend to agree that if "F*ck" is used as a form of punctuation, it loses it value and just becomes irritating.

I also agree that showering recruits (or any subordinates) with a stream of profanity probably is not the best way to go, but again in certain circumstances a well used-word or two can be useful.

I find that my two kids (20 and 15) use it without thinking: it has lost its value amongst people of that generation, I think.

Cheers


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