# What Bases should stay open and which Bases should be closed



## canuck101 (9 Nov 2004)

I know we have too many bases which ones should close and which ones should stay open.  We have very little presence in the north should we put a base in the north insteed of one in southern Canada.  Should we form bigger bases that the airforce and army share ie combining the old bases of kingston, Trenton and North bay on one base like Petawawa. If you have any comments or idea's on this please add.


----------



## pbi (9 Nov 2004)

Who says we have "too many bases?" Cheers.


----------



## bossi (9 Nov 2004)

canuck101 said:
			
		

> We have very little presence in the north should we put a base in the north insteed of one in southern Canada.



No.  "Out of sight, out of mind."
The further we retreat from the public eye, the quicker and deeper our budget will be cut
(ironically, a vicious circle, since costs increase proportionately with distance from supply sources).

The biggest mistake our Army has made in recent years has been to close bases in major population centres.
Yes, we need training areas in remote locations - however, we also need to be seen by the taxpayers in order for them to take pride in their military.
It's all about public perception, and we are slitting our throats by retreating to the boonies.


----------



## Inch (9 Nov 2004)

You can't move North Bay because of the "Hole", Trenton is one of the biggest Air Force bases in the CF, and the last time I was in Trenton, I didn't see a whole lot of room to be able to move Kingston there. Moving Trenton is out of the question, the amount of land required for a military airfield is pretty hard to come by.

I agree with pbi and bossi, we cut a huge amount of bases in the 90's in favour of the mega bases. We closed Calgary, London, Summerside, Cornwallis, Chilliwack, 2 of the 3 Military colleges, Portage la Prairie, we also just recently moved 2VP out of Winnipeg, I'm sure there's some I missed but you get the idea. During the whole Sept 11th ordeal, it was found that 2 fighter bases wasn't enough, so after moving all the fighters (I include T33s in this) to Cold Lake and Bagotville, we now had to send out detachments of a few fighters to Comox, Greenwood, and Trenton to be able to respond quick enough to emergencies at the major centres. 

I don't think closing more bases will accomplish much, that's just my opinion though.

Cheers


----------



## Scratch_043 (9 Nov 2004)

Don't forget about Downsview.

I wonder how much the people of Toronto would be able to forget about the military if there was still a huge base downtown??


----------



## Black Ops (9 Nov 2004)

North Bay's Underground Complex is soon to be closed. Theyre is a new complex being built above ground accross from base HQ. North Bay will be around for yearrrrrrs to come .


----------



## combat_medic (9 Nov 2004)

I would say that the LAST thing the CF needs right now is fewer bases. At the moment, there is no army base west of Edmonton, and if there were some kind of emergency in Vancouver, there would be virtually no capacity to respond to it, other than the few hundred reservists in the Lower Mainland. The CF needs a larger presence in this country, certainly not a smaller one.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (9 Nov 2004)

We need MORE bases for MORE soldiers, and I don't particularly care where you put them. Just put them, somewhere, and staff them.


----------



## HollywoodHitman (9 Nov 2004)

There is simply no question that there needs to be a fulltime Army presence back in BC. Chilliwack should be re-opened. The RCMP can run it's show out at the JIBC.


----------



## Glorified Ape (11 Nov 2004)

ToRN said:
			
		

> Don't forget about Downsview.
> 
> I wonder how much the people of Toronto would be able to forget about the military if there was still a huge base downtown??



Downsview is nowhere near downtown Toronto. That being said, having a base in Toronto would be nice since it would mean I might be able to get a posting in my hometown.


----------



## bossi (11 Nov 2004)

Glorified Ape said:
			
		

> Downsview is nowhere near downtown Toronto. That being said, having a base in Toronto would be nice since it would mean I might be able to get a posting in my hometown.



Don't worry - AFTER you've done your time in the field, there should still be a few positions in Toronto
(e.g. LFCA HQ, 32 CBG HQ, RFC at reserve units, Recruiting, Staff College)


----------



## Scratch_043 (11 Nov 2004)

Glorified Ape said:
			
		

> Downsview is nowhere near downtown Toronto. That being said, having a base in Toronto would be nice since it would mean I might be able to get a posting in my hometown.


 I said downtown to make a point.


----------



## aesop081 (11 Nov 2004)

And exactly what point is that ????


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (11 Nov 2004)

"No.   "Out of sight, out of mind."
The further we retreat from the public eye, the quicker and deeper our budget will be cut
(ironically, a vicious circle, since costs increase proportionately with distance from supply sources).

The biggest mistake our Army has made in recent years has been to close bases in major population centres.
Yes, we need training areas in remote locations - however, we also need to be seen by the taxpayers in order for them to take pride in their military.
It's all about public perception, and we are slitting our throats by retreating to the boonies."

Kinda like moving from Winnipeg to Shilo.   :  :'(  :rage:


----------



## Yeoman (11 Nov 2004)

should have left 1 RCR in london. sure I lived just 20 minutes outside of london, but that's not the point   
anywho; yeah we do need some more places to have guys at. most definetely we should have troops out in the bc area, but really it comes down to the fact of "well there wouldn't be a big enough training ground to have an entire battalion plus all the support trades to work in over there" is what someone somewhere would pull.
just like when 1 RCR was in London, they deemed it too far from Petawawa, so they moved em up here.
we definetely should have some type of base in bc for sure, a rather large base, and put 1 PPCLI or 3 PPCLI out there. they shouldn't have moved 2 VP from Winnipeg, I know a couple of guys I know where pretty ticked off with that one. And alot of guys from 1 RCR are still bitter of moving from London (would be nice to be called the hollywood battalion again, like the old guys tell me), and that happend in what? 89-91? quite a while ago.
most definetely we need a larger presence in major areas. who knows, maybe one day it'll happen again, never say never.
Greg


----------



## JasonH (11 Nov 2004)

For a government wanting to recruit more, they sure are doing the opposite.  We have no reg force on the west coast (in British Columbia), we should reopen or build a new base here.  

Yes, I'm a bit biased... I don't wanna leave Vancouver but I do hah  :-\


----------



## NavyGrunt (11 Nov 2004)

Yeah I think the idea of us "having to many bases" is wild- where did you hear that? More bases, more soldiers, more gear.....

perhaps for a presence up north we could make a camp for winter warfare training and exercises and rotate different reggies through it.....but that why we have the "rangers"...that was for northern presence specifically.


----------



## Zoomie (12 Nov 2004)

BC has plenty of CF presence...  Ever heard of Comox and Esquimalt?  Sure they're not populated by the crunchies but it's still quite a number of Reg force members.  In the modern age of planes, trains and automobiles the boys in Edmonton are only a short hop away from the West Coast (if so required).  In the mean time I am sure that we can rely on the Navy to prowl our waters and let us Air Force types keep the sky's safe.

The PPCLI moved out of Esquimalt a while back, I don't think they can have their own shacks back - the fish-heads are happily ensconced in them right now.


----------



## NavyGrunt (12 Nov 2004)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> the fish-heads are happily ensconced in them right now.



Thats "squids" to you wedge head.... ;D


----------



## JasonH (12 Nov 2004)

Navy is like the Armies little brother, no one picks on them except for the Army  

Either way, I'd like to stick around here then go off to some remote area


----------



## NavyGrunt (12 Nov 2004)

Jay Hunter said:
			
		

> Navy is like the Armies little brother, no one picks on them except for the Army
> 
> Either way, I'd like to stick around here then go off to some remote area



Dont let anyone pick on me Jay...


----------



## HollywoodHitman (12 Nov 2004)

A fulltime REG force presence in the airforce or navy does NOT an army presence make. There is no comparison whatsoever. Zoomies and squids do their thing, crunchies do ours. I can't do your thing, guarantee you can't do mine. 

Reg force Infantry is needed in BC. There is NOT a sufficient Reg force presence of any kind on the West Coast. I am a rental, who is more than combat capable, in a Unit that can field more than combat capable troops and I acknowledge our limitations as rentals...............

TM :threat:


----------



## pbi (12 Nov 2004)

Just out of idle interest, what is the pressing need to have a RegF Inf unit in the Lower Mainland, other than pre-positioning in the event that The Big One damages airheads and ground transportation routes?

Cheers


----------



## Lethbridge U (12 Nov 2004)

bossi said:
			
		

> No.   "Out of sight, out of mind."
> The further we retreat from the public eye, the quicker and deeper our budget will be cut
> (ironically, a vicious circle, since costs increase proportionately with distance from supply sources).
> 
> Very interesting point. I've never thought of it that way.


----------



## aesop081 (12 Nov 2004)

*A fulltime REG force presence in the airforce or navy does NOT an army presence make. There is no comparison whatsoever. Zoomies and squids do their thing, crunchies do ours. I can't do your thing, guarantee you can't do mine. * 

I'm pretty sure i can do yours....however its not my job anymore.  You do have a point, we need a joint presence in the north that amounts to more than the rangers.


----------



## Brad Sallows (12 Nov 2004)

>In the modern age of planes, trains and automobiles the boys in Edmonton are only a short hop away from the West Coast (if so required).

Leaving aside all the things which can happen to railbeds and airfields, we did actually experience a bout of very poor weather which resulted in simultaneous and temporary closure of all three major highways (1, 3, and 5) at various points east of Hope back in the '80s (if memory serves).  It would be a bit of a stretch to knock out every means of getting heavy equipment into the lower mainland, though.


----------



## Storm (13 Nov 2004)

pbi said:
			
		

> Just out of idle interest, what is the pressing need to have a RegF Inf unit in the Lower Mainland, other than pre-positioning in the event that The Big One damages airheads and ground transportation routes?
> 
> Cheers



There's no "pressing need" but there are advantages to having a base around BC's lower mainland. I'm not too concerned about it, but I thought I'd list off what I can think of (out of idle interest as well):

-If we ever actually get a sealift capability it would be much easier/cheaper/faster to have equipment an hour or so away from the loading docks rather than having to move them through the mountains. 

-Having a reg force presence in sight of a couple million civilians could really help improve their understanding of the forces. As Vancouver is one of Canada's largest cities, having little presence there doesn't exactly help the average Canadian understand what the military does (one of the key barriers to improving our forces).

-The variety of terrain is good in the area, as you can find everything from completely flat to bitchin' steep within a few minutes' drive, not to mention a climate in which you can actually play outside in winter in relative comfort (for those who must, you can still easily walk up a hill for a few minutes to freeze your butt off in the white stuff). This makes the area versatile for all sorts of training exercises.

-Finally, living in Vancouver would improve quality of life since it's such a nice place  :dontpanic: (guess where I'm from   )



			
				Zoomie said:
			
		

> BC has plenty of CF presence... Ever heard of Comox and Esquimalt? Sure they're not populated by the crunchies but it's still quite a number of Reg force members.



You mean Vancouver Island has plenty of CF presence. The mainland (the majority of the province in land and population) has precisely crap all. That doesn't help public awareness much.

Seriously though, I don't see the point in messing with new bases (or re-opening closed ones) unless we actually recruit, train, and retain the soldiers that would justify them. People come first.

As to the original topic of this thread: close bases? Wrong forum if you're looking for support on that idea. Talk to your local NDP if you want support for completely abolishing the Canadian military.


----------



## Griswald DME (13 Nov 2004)

Pity they couldn't do more with Jericho.  There's not enough land for a large army base however.


----------



## pbi (13 Nov 2004)

Storm: my question wasn't really about whether or not we needed a RegF Army presence, it was about why we specifically needed an Inf bn. A few comments:



> If we ever actually get a sealift capability it would be much easier/cheaper/faster to have equipment an hour or so away from the loading docks rather than having to move them through the mountains



This makes sense, although to the best of my knowledge all of our military sea movement is done out of Montreal Harbour, even when 1 CMBg goes overseas. I am not sure what would happen if we were to do a Pacific Rim deployment-pehaps then Vancouver would make more sense;



> Having a reg force presence in sight of a couple million civilians could really help improve their understanding of the forces. As Vancouver is one of Canada's largest cities, having little presence there doesn't exactly help the average Canadian understand what the military does (one of the key barriers to improving our forces).



What is 39 CBG doing?



> The variety of terrain is good in the area, as you can find everything from completely flat to bitchin' steep within a few minutes' drive, not to mention a climate in which you can actually play outside in winter in relative comfort (for those who must, you can still easily walk up a hill for a few minutes to freeze your butt off in the white stuff). This makes the area versatile for all sorts of training exercises



I served briefly in Chilliwack and I was posted at Work Point for three years. I agree with the great countryside, but IIRC one of things that led to the relocation of 1 CER and CFSME was the fact that the increased population of the Lower Mainland (including the Chilliwack area) was making it increasingly difficult to access training areas other than Chilcoten (and that had its own problems). When I served on Vancouver Island we faced the problem of havin nowhere to do mech training, although there were a few dismounted areas. To do any mech trg we had to get off the Island, which was like the second coming of D-Day. It would have to be a light bn if the idea was for it to actually train in that area.



> Finally, living in Vancouver would improve quality of life since it's such a nice place  (guess where I'm from  )



What RegF soldiers could afford to live there? Jericho Beach is way too small and is closing anyway. I agree Van is nice though, especially Granville Island. Cheers.


----------



## Matt_Fisher (13 Nov 2004)

I tend to agree with pbi on the subject of reg. infantry in BC.   

For those who argue that troops should be in BC because of close access to sealift, you've got to think about this first.   It's going to take a good deal of time for any deployment of troops to get approved in political circles before the troops actually embark on their deployment.   It'll take at least a week or two or so that it'll take Ottawa to settle any squabbles in the cabinet, then debate the motion in parliament.   With that said, it's pretty much a non-issue as to where the troops are that are going to man the pre-positioned equipment.

It does make sense to have another pre-positioned stock on the west coast to deal with any Pacific rim contingencies, ie. 2nd Korean War, Chinese invasion of Taiwan, Indonesian meltdown, etc.   But it would not be a necessity to have troops within one hours driving distance to man that equipment, as they'd likely be sitting on their butts for another 14 days before they got their marching orders at the earliest.

What might make sense would be for a redeployment of 3PPCLI or another light infantry unit to Esquimalt.   This light infantry battalion could focus on mountain and amphibious operations (coastal raids, riverine ops. etc.) given the terrain of BC and Vancouver Island in particular.   While there is not a large-scale training area on Vancouver Island, the US has Ft. Lewis and the Yakima Firing Center in Washington State that could be utilized for live-fire training and company and battalion level training, which would be easier to get to with a light battalion vs. a mech. (troops board up into buses and the rest of the stuff is transported by military vehicles).   Actually, such training evolutions could work out very well for the unit, as the battalion staff would become masters of embark and become very proficient in deploying the unit.   You could also airlift the battalion periodically to Ft. Lewis or Yakima by Canadian or US air transport assets to further enhance this deployability of the battalion.


----------



## pbi (15 Nov 2004)

Matt-that was pretty well what we did in 3PP when we were in Work Point with AVGP Grizzly. We used road and rail ferries to get the vehicles over, and either bus or airlift to move troops. Yakima and Fort Lewis were favourite training locations, since Wainwright was a VERY long road move (I did it once.....that was enough!) Cheers.


----------



## R031button (15 Nov 2004)

I think the one thing that is forgotten here is how beneficial a reg force base/presence is for reserve training. It is very very difficult to get needed supplies from WATC, and ASU Chilliwack does not meet that need, it can barely handle outfitting soldiers; case in point I don't have winter gear because I can't get issued it from my unit only the ASU can do that, but my unit has a big box of the stuff, which is currently sitting idle because it has to come from ASU, and the ASU doesn't have to the room to store it. On a more tactical level, our unit (RMRang) has a recce specialization, however, we can't get in any NVG (at least that's a humble privet's understanding of the situation). Now if we had a reg force base here, I would imagine much of the supply issue would be dealt with; as evidence, CScotR's  on my BMQ course showed up in CADPAT with all sorts of guichi kit, simply because they got issued kit from Esquimalt and Comox. I could not even imagine the problems the BCD's must have faced trying to get Cougar's to Vernon from WATC if the RMRang's can't even get a set of NVGs.


----------



## pbi (15 Nov 2004)

> I don't have winter gear because I can't get issued it from my unit only the ASU can do that, but my unit has a big box of the stuff, which is currently sitting idle because it has to come from ASU, and the ASU doesn't have to the room to store it



I have to ask what your Bde HQ, specifically your G4 staff, are doing about this? We have units far from their support base too, but they get winter kit. Cheers.


----------



## Matt_Fisher (15 Nov 2004)

pbi said:
			
		

> Matt-that was pretty well what we did in 3PP when we were in Work Point with AVGP Grizzly. We used road and rail ferries to get the vehicles over, and either bus or airlift to move troops. Yakima and Fort Lewis were favourite training locations, since Wainwright was a VERY long road move (I did it once.....that was enough!) Cheers.



pbi, do you think that keeping 3PPCLI at Work Point Barracks would have been more arguable had they been a light infantry battalion without the mech. resources that consumed alot of time, effort and money to transport to training areas?

Also, do you think that there would be any benefit to having them stationed in Esquimalt so that they would have more opportunity to work on amphibious and mountain operations than they may now in Edmonton?


----------



## pbi (15 Nov 2004)

> pbi, do you think that keeping 3PPCLI at Work Point Barracks would have been more arguable had they been a light infantry battalion without the mech. resources that consumed alot of time, effort and money to transport to training areas?



Possibly, except that there was nowhere to do any serious sp weapon firing or field firing. We would still have had to go to the mainland for that, and probably still to Yakima for TOW/81mm. Dry dismounted trg areas were pretty good: we did some patrol trg up-island (Deadwood Valley outside Nanaimo-Mark C will remember it well....) in very challenging deadfall swamp with zero ambient light at night because of the canopy.



> Also, do you think that there would be any benefit to having them stationed in Esquimalt so that they would have more opportunity to work on amphibious and mountain operations than they may now in Edmonton?



For those two reasons; yes. However, mtn trg can also be done from Edmn (not as easily as Calgary or Esquimalt). Cheers.


----------



## CrimsonSeil (15 Nov 2004)

More bases=more soldiers=canada leading power jk that will never happen eh?


----------



## Matt_Fisher (16 Nov 2004)

pbi,

Thanks for the insight.  When you consider all the points, it does seem to make more sense to have the battalion in Edmonton now due to their proximity to Wainwright as a local training area, capable of supporting all organic weapons to the battalion, as well as economies of scale in terms of support garnered by the 'superbase' model.

On the subject of amphibious training, it would probably be easier to move a company at a time to Esquimalt or some other location to go through the training rotation, then home to Edmonton when the training was complete.


----------



## Storm (16 Nov 2004)

(edit: ended up longer than I planned... skip to the last paragraph if you're short on time)



			
				pbi said:
			
		

> Storm: my question wasn't really about whether or not we needed a RegF Army presence, it was about why we specifically needed an Inf bn.


Whoops, missed that. I read it as being about Reg presence in general. I don't really see why it would have to be specifically infantry either.



			
				pbi said:
			
		

> What is 39 CBG doing?





			
				pbi said:
			
		

> I have to ask what your Bde HQ, specifically your G4 staff, are doing about this? We have units far from their support base too, but they get winter kit. Cheers.



You seem to be wondering quite a bit what's going on in 39 CBG. ;D

I would comment more, but I'm not in their loop just yet. So far, as a current outsider to 39 CBG, all I can say with credibility is that the NCO handling reserve files at CFRC seems on the ball with my file and the units make a decent showing at public events. I wasn't knocking the importance of reserve presence, just commenting that an everyday reg force presence helps all that much more. I've been driving past Jericho almost every day for a few years now, and have to say that I doubt many civilians know it's even there. The only person in uniform I've seen in all that time (guard shack at the gates 9/11 era notwithstanding) is a Seaforth NCM walking to lunch (I assume) two or three times, and that's from someone who's actually looking. I doubt most people even notice the little sign.



> What RegF soldiers could afford to live there? Jericho Beach is way too small and is closing anyway. I agree Van is nice though, especially Granville Island. Cheers.


If they lived by Jericho then the cost of living adjustment would be astronomical. However, heading out of the more central areas you can start finding much more reasonable prices, many no worse than around Victoria. Prices in Chilliwack aren't all that bad. 

As an aside, it's too bad about Jericho really. Looks like it must have been a great little station back before it was a park, when they had the amphibs and such out there (going way back now). 



			
				Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> What might make sense would be for a redeployment of 3PPCLI or another light infantry unit to Esquimalt.   This light infantry battalion could focus on mountain and amphibious operations.... While there is not a large-scale training area on Vancouver Island, the US has Ft. Lewis and the Yakima Firing Center in Washington State that could be utilized for live-fire training and company and battalion level training, which would be easier to get to with a light battalion vs. a mech...



I like the idea of a light force making use of the geography here. If we'd be sending them off Island to train all the time though, why have them on the island? (I'm having terrible images of having to rely on BC Ferries for transport :blotto It's doubtful the mounties and other groups would give up the sweet deal they got from the forces with Chilliwack though. They'd be just as crazy to give it back as the politicians were to give it to them in the first place, so we'd have to do something new. 

Estabilishing a decent reg army presence on the mainland would be easiest closer to Kamloops or Kelowna, as much as I hate to admit it. The lakes around there are enough to play in that either would make a decent area. Then again, so would Squamish (for moderate numbers), but that would guarantee no ability to expand ever.

As fun as that little flight of fancy was, I have to concede that pbi has the reality: it's Edmonton for the long haul. Starting up a new place on the mainland would be too troublesome to be politically viable anytime soon. I can always dream of a time where the forces will be solid enough to seriously look at a dedicated mountain ops location though, can't I?


----------



## pbi (16 Nov 2004)

> I've been driving past Jericho almost every day for a few years now, and have to say that I doubt many civilians know it's even there



Roger-I didn't mean the HQ itself (our Bde HQ is even more out of the way and nondescript than Jericho, which is actually one of the most beautifully situated of any military installations in Canada IMHO..). I meant the units, which are the ones really "doing" the footprint. 

The sad fact (having served in two RegF bns garrisoned in cities, and being stationed next to door to a third), is that in big cities none of us, Reg or Res, make nearly the impact that we do in the smaller places. Cheers.


----------



## Bograt (16 Nov 2004)

Okay, I'll bite.

How about Baggotville? Move the Hornets to Goose and Greenwood.


----------



## Inch (16 Nov 2004)

Bograt said:
			
		

> Okay, I'll bite.
> 
> How about Baggotville? Move the Hornets to Goose and Greenwood.



Sorry, I can't see that happening anytime soon either.  Goose as it stands is a 3 year posting, no more than that and when you go, you don't take your own stuff with you since there's no highways to get it there. The cost to operate anything more than a Sqn there would be crazy. Greenwood is not much good either, there's no training areas in NS for jets and the Bay of Fundy is off limits due to the protected whales so they're going to have to transit to actually get some work done. Not to mention that Bagotville is very close to Chicoutimi-Jonquiere, which is, needless to say, a whole lot better place to be than Goose or Greenwood. We'd be further ahead to move Goose to Bagotville, though that would bankrupt the town of Happy Valley/Goose Bay since the major industry there is the military.

Just my opinion though.

Cheers


----------



## aesop081 (16 Nov 2004)

Not to mention the somewhat uncertain future of Goose bay.


----------



## Bograt (17 Nov 2004)

aesop081 said:
			
		

> Not to mention the somewhat uncertain future of Goose bay.



Hun? But Prime Minister Martin said that he promised to make sure that the military continues to take advantage of the wonderful resources that Goose Bay provides. (Sarcasm does not work well in type).

I heard rumors in certain circles that Baggotville was being considered. I don't know the rationale, but from what I understand there are valid justifications- since I don't know any details I'll shut up and listen to my Zamfir cd- Goodness I love the pan flute.


----------



## Ennasa (17 Dec 2004)

Does anyone know what happened to Moose Jaw??  Might sound like a funny question but my father was Airforce and I spent 4 years of my life there ( falling asleep to the sound of big plane engines )  
My father retired in '94 when there were cut backs or something like that ( I was only 14, dont really know) and friends told me it was a private pilot school... others say its closed completly and the PMQ's have been torn down.  Anyways just curious to know 

Thanks


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (17 Dec 2004)

I believe Moose Jaw is the home of the Canadian Snowbirds as well as a training base for many other nations.


----------



## Ennasa (17 Dec 2004)

ok... should of guessed for the Snow Birds....  but is it still a fully functionnal military base? Thats what Im curious about.   ???


----------



## FSTO (17 Dec 2004)

Moose Jaw is the NATO primary flight training base. Most of the Air Force left in 98-99. I was a staff officer at HMCS UNICORN in Saskatoon and   Moose Jaw was our support base. When it was decided to go ASD for flight training, Bombardier (who else? (extreme sarcasm here)) took over. I was posted out in the spring of 99 so I don't know how much of the air force infrastructure left.

Work Point - The Navy has completely taken over there. It is now the home of Venture, the Naval Officer Training Centre. That red brick building the Army built is now home to our bridge simulators and a mjority of the classrooms. They are building a new accomodation block and galley. I think we will be moving our PLQ organisation out there also. The only PPCLI presence is Range Control, for Heals Rifle range and Betenick Island (demolitions). While they do good work, I would rather they went back to the PPCLI (I think they could find more meaningful jobs for them) and let us run the ranges, we are the primary users anyway.

As for having a military presence in a major city, we are basically near the centre of Greater Victoria Regional District, our ships are always sailing across the waterfront of Victoria and I bet that half the city don't know or care that we exist. And for opening a base in or near Vancouver, boy we could recruit 20,000 troops for the amount that would cost us. Cheaper to buy C-17 to fly need troops from Edmonton if the big one hits. (they could land in Vic, Comox, Abbotsford or south if Vancouver Airport was unusuable.

As for the moving of 3 PPCLI from Winnipeg to Shilo, (Deep Breath)
Good Christ its 1hr and 1/2 drive down a 4 lane highway to Winnipeg! I think people in TO have a longer drive to work EVERY DAY!
If I hear one more person say that they won't be able to see the RWB, I'll puke!, How many times did you watch them when you lived there
I"m from Killarney, 1 hr south of Shilo, I have heard this crap from Winnipegers for years, get over it! Your in the fricken military!!!!!


----------



## aesop081 (17 Dec 2004)

FSTO said:
			
		

> As for the moving of 3 PPCLI from Winnipeg to Shilo, (Deep Breath)



You meant 2 PPCLI right ??

As for the original topic........  I could see whats left of Winnipeg closing in the next few years. IMHO, there is nothing here that cannot be done elsewhere.  2VP is gone to Shilo, CFSMET could be moved to Borden ( to join the rest of air force NCM training.....with the execptions of SAR tech, FE, AESOp and AC Op), CFANS could be moved to Trenton, CFSSAT could go to Trenton as well, CFSAS could go to Borden/Trenton/Wherever. 402 Sqn to trenton to support CFANS and 435  to Trenton ( this would further consolidate C-130 ops there).

As for Bagotville, well i can't see that closing.  I can see the political storm that would result from closing the only air force base in Quebec.  With Gose bay's futer uncertain ( beleive me , it is) there are no other alternatives for a fighter base on the east coast.


----------



## FSTO (18 Dec 2004)

aesop081 said:
			
		

> You meant 2 PPCLI right ??



1,2,3 whatever!! ;D



Don't get your shorts in a knot, though I don't know the diff between the regiments, I am sure that what I said would get the same response as if an army person said "frigate, destroyer, AOR whatever!"


----------



## MJP (18 Dec 2004)

FSTO said:
			
		

> As for the moving of 3 PPCLI from Winnipeg to Shilo, (Deep Breath)
> Good Christ its 1hr and 1/2 drive down a 4 lane highway to Winnipeg! I think people in TO have a longer drive to work EVERY DAY!
> If I hear one more person say that they won't be able to see the RWB, I'll puke!, How many times did you watch them when you lived there
> I"m from Killarney, 1 hr south of Shilo, I have heard this crap from Winnipegers for years, get over it! Your in the fricken military!!!!!



I hardly think that the dissatisfaction about the 2PPCLI move to Shilo revolves around RWB or even the distance to Winnipeg.  Brandon has grown in leaps and bounds in the last 8-10 years and has all the amenities of Winnipeg, albeit on a smaller scale.  I think the major dissatisfier is the lack of white collar jobs for spouses of military members.  I know of a more than a few cases of spouses not being gainfully employed in their speciality(healthcare, education, justice) due to a dearth of jobs in Brandon.  All one has to do is look at the number of IR postings that 2PPCLI has right now and realize that for some they are taking a financial hit.


----------



## Inch (18 Dec 2004)

FSTO said:
			
		

> Moose Jaw is the NATO primary flight training base. Most of the Air Force left in 98-99. I was a staff officer at HMCS UNICORN in Saskatoon and     Moose Jaw was our support base. When it was decided to go ASD for flight training, Bombardier (who else? (extreme sarcasm here)) took over. I was posted out in the spring of 99 so I don't know how much of the air force infrastructure left.



Moose Jaw is actually home to Basic Flight Training and Advanced Flight Training for jets. Primary Flight Training is done in Portage la Prairie, semantics I know, but the truth. The only people that have left MJ in the last 10 years has been the technicians since all maintenance on the NFTC equipment is done by Bombardier. Other than that and Base rescue flight that was canned in the mid 90s, ATC, the Snowbirds and the Big 2 (2CFFTS) all remain there. It's still a CFB and it's a proper wing too complete with meatheads unlike Portage la Prairie. You can get everything there that you can get in Trenton or elsewhere. There's still a ton of PMQs (Bushell Park) and a brand new barrack block.


----------



## Ennasa (18 Dec 2004)

Inch thanks, thats the info I wanted to hear.   My dad was a Tech and we left there 10 years ago last september.   Ive lived in Quebec since and I havent returned.   Anyways, thanks for the info!


----------



## aesop081 (18 Dec 2004)

FSTO said:
			
		

> 1,2,3 whatever!! ;D
> 
> 
> 
> Don't get your shorts in a knot, though I don't know the diff between the regiments, I am sure that what I said would get the same response as if an army person said "frigate, destroyer, AOR whatever!"



And before* YOU * get your  knickers in a not........I was asking a simple question ! I was trying to make sure that i was actualy awake the day 2PPCLI drove out of the peg........Maybe you need to relax a bit......


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (18 Dec 2004)

FSTO speak to what you know.
For starters its a 2 lane highway (albeit its 2 lanes either way) not a 4 lane highway like they have in TO.
Second its a 2 hour drive and thats to the outskirts.  If you live in other more distant area's within Wpg it could be a 2 1/2 hour drive not to mention the winter time.
MJP hit it on the head really.  People that are teachers, bank tellers, even pharmacy techs can't find work.  There is also few jobs that pay above minimum.  So you'll excuse those that are affected from being a little bitter and in shock about the whole thing.
P.S.  go ahead and ask me where our first field ex was.  Shilo.  No, it was in Wainwright.


----------



## mbhabfan (18 Dec 2004)

I think it is more a matter of time.  In the Shilo area (Brandon) those people will find jobs but in a move as big as that they would run into the same problems no matter where they were going to move to.  That many skilled people hitting the same area all at once would congest most job markets if every spouse was as skilled as made out to be.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (18 Dec 2004)

you might be right but for those affected, it doesn't make it any easier to take when there were viable options in WPG.


----------



## Gilligan (18 Dec 2004)

Okay, I guess I'll add my .02 worth on the idea of a base in Vancouver.   As it stands, they are in the process of moving Seaforth Highlanders into Jericho Garrison.   This is only temporary, as they plan on moving 39 Bde, 12 fld Amb and 744 Comm Reg't, along with a few others I believe, into what they want to be CFB Vancouver, which will be located (apparently) on the current site of Seaforth Highlanders.   Of course, as the GVRD (Greater Vancouver Regional District for those not from here) is not reg force, it would be a reserve base, with a few reg force members on contract with res units, however it would lend itself to the idea of public presence.   That, and who would hate the idea of having a military base right next to a Molson Brewery      Apparently this will be happening in the next 3-5 years, and will end with the closing and selling of Jericho to the City to build many condos....typical!


----------



## mbhabfan (18 Dec 2004)

I realize it would be difficult for those affected and did not mean to seem unsympathetic, I was only meaning that as a resident of the general area I am sick of hearing people bi*** about it.  It comes off as people hate the location but what I am getting at is that it wouldn't matter where they moved people would be unhappy.


----------



## Sea Cadet (19 Dec 2004)

The one base that i no will stay open is cfb gagetown in new brunswick


----------



## Inch (19 Dec 2004)

Sea Cadet said:
			
		

> The one base that i no will stay open is cfb gagetown in new brunswick



I just wanted to take the chance to personally thank you for adding such a useful and well thought out point to this discussion. BZ.

CFL, it all depends on what part of the country you're from, the 4 lane vs 2 lane highway dispute is not unlike the case of beer dispute.  I've always referred to highways by their total number of lanes, Toronto doesn't have 4 lane highways, they have 8 or more lane highways and the TransCanada between Brandon and Winnipeg is a 4 lane highway in my mind. 

Anywho....

Cheers


----------



## Ex-Dragoon (19 Dec 2004)

Sea Cadet said:
			
		

> The one base that i no will stay open is cfb gagetown in new brunswick



its the damn noise to signal ratio going up again.   :


----------



## Infanteer (19 Dec 2004)

What's that, I can't hear you?


----------



## FSTO (19 Dec 2004)

CFL said:
			
		

> FSTO speak to what you know.
> For starters its a 2 lane highway (albeit its 2 lanes either way) not a 4 lane highway like they have in TO.
> Second its a 2 hour drive and thats to the outskirts.  If you live in other more distant area's within Wpg it could be a 2 1/2 hour drive not to mention the winter time.


And people in TO and Vancouver drive more than that every day to go to work!



			
				CFL said:
			
		

> MJP hit it on the head really.  People that are teachers, bank tellers, even pharmacy techs can't find work.  There is also few jobs that pay above minimum.  So you'll excuse those that are affected from being a little bitter and in shock about the whole thing.
> P.S.  go ahead and ask me where our first field ex was.  Shilo.  No, it was in Wainwright.



Did you really think that the Kensington site was going to stay open forever? As a family did you not take into account that you might be moved and that it would be to Shilo? Did you take the time to check out the job market in the Brandon, Cornwallis, SW Manitoba? If your spouse is in the Pharmacy field, there are a dozen towns within a 1/2 hr drive that are in dire need of health care workers. 
I said before that in the military you should have in the back of your mind that you could be moved every 3 years. What if you were moved to Gagetown, Valcartier, North Bay? You would probably have the same problems as you face going to Shilo.

Finally, being from rural Canada, I get a littleannoyed  when people automatically asume that if they are out of sight of a large metro area they are in the hillbillly hick world with no amenities, no transport and no future. Nothing can be further from the truth.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (19 Dec 2004)

I guess your right Inch.   In my mind a case of beer is 24 and a 4 lane highway is 4 lanes in one direction.   Semantics I guess.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (19 Dec 2004)

I'll let her speak on the health care job market.
The members of the Infantry (not including officers) can spend a minimum of 10 years in on place.   There are very few postings in my trade especially now.   The higher up you are ie Sgt, WO the greater chance you have to be posted to a school.
I had no doubt that the old barracks would close however there is plenty of room on 17 Wing to build as well as a little further out just past city limits.   Think of the savings in money (posting allowances, IR postings,) keeping in more personal, still being in the public eye etc.
Just because I'm a soldier doesn't mean I have to like it.   Suck it sure.   Like it, no.


----------



## birdgunnnersrule (19 Dec 2004)

I agree CFL...Shilo is a not a good spot and driving for an hour round trip is tiresome. I was lucky enough to stay for a brief visit only. I am tired of people stating that spouses should suck it up because they knew when they married a military person that they would have to give up their lives.  Sure they are aware that postings to Wainwright and those places may come along, but the military/government has done little to promote other worthwhile industry in the local area. Besides a few hardware stores, a strip mall, there's nothing. Call centers don't count when a wife has a Masters Degree and is forced to work their because jobs are not avail. Yeah....We could all pop smoke or go on IR as a solution, but we shouldn't be forced to.Also if you every get posted to NB please ensure that your wife is bilingual as the government rarely hires if you don't have at least BBB.  If you do get hired, there's little chance of advancement until you get a profile, kind of like the military.


----------



## Infanteer (19 Dec 2004)

Yup.  Small cities of at least 10,000 shoud be the minimum size for locating garrisons.


----------



## bossi (19 Dec 2004)

As suggested previously, we're slitting our own throats if we retreat from major urban centres - the taxpayers are only human, and if they aren't reminded of something on a regular basis ... they can't be blamed for forgetting or even neglecting unseen priorities (and of course, the federal Liberal party takes every opportunity to further their own political agenda ... which doesn't necessarily include a resonable defence budget ... but, I digress ... as always ...)

Heck - I've lost count of how many guysI've met who  leave their families behind in Kingston, Ottawa, etc. because they're dug in and have a job - it's a simple case of job markets being better where there is a more diversified socio-industrial complex, as opposed to smaller communities.  There's no stigma attached to smaller towns - they've got their unique qualities, benefits and disadvantages.

Thus, once again it's a matter of "rationalisation" - it's not necessarily the best idea to consolidate in fewer and fewer locations, especially if supposed "cost savings" are outweighed by a loss of public support (due to a loss of public visibility), combined with unnecessary hardships to families.


----------

