# Do alot of you have wrecked bodies? (knees, back etc)



## blacktriangle (25 Jul 2008)

So I've been thinking about how long I want to be in the CF, and I'm looking to get out by about 30. 

I've heard of "Snr NCO's knees" and many a bad back in the forces, so I'm just curious, if any of you have experienced severe long term side effects from PT/Training/Operations have they set in as early as 30, or not until later on in life? 

Also, can the majority of these ailments be prevented or is it a given in military life?


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## Love793 (25 Jul 2008)

I'm 31 going on 32 and my knees/ankles and back are cosnstant issues, along with shin splints. A lot of it though was caused by me being young, dumb and supposedly knowing more than all the old guys. Lesson learned (the hard way).


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## aesop081 (25 Jul 2008)

I'm 32 and my knees and back are a constant source of various aches and pains and sometimes its enough to knock me out of action. Over a decade of sleeping in holes in the ground, ruck marches, jumping in and out of trucks and APCs..........


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## Kat Stevens (25 Jul 2008)

Knees were shot before I was 30,  left shoulder and neck trashed before 35,  back destroyed by 37.  Slugging bridge panels, falling off the top of vehicles in dark hides, full on full contact sports, endless pavement pounding runs, and crawling in, on, and around AEVs and AVLBs for a whole bunch of years.  Plus, when I was a much younger sapper, all senior NCOs were also cross qualified as doctors, and could instantly tell you that nothing was wrong, you were just being an idle crow.


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## medaid (25 Jul 2008)

I'm on the young side... but wrecked left trap muscle and shoulder. That was 05, 2 years later still not healed properly.


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## Spanky (25 Jul 2008)

A bad knee and my ears need checking.


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## Armymedic (25 Jul 2008)

From my experience, I have found that the incidences of injury and chronic aches are no more that in athletes. You do anything physically strenuous for years, and your body will break eventually. Some break early (in thier 20's) some last into thier 50's.

After all, if you really think about it, we are professional athletes (too bad more people do not think that way) in the worlds most extreme contact sport - combat.


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## Jed (25 Jul 2008)

Well said, Prairie Dog. I hope this thread does not become a massive hypocondriac whine session that scares off the young guys.   The life does take its toll but so do other professions out in the civi world.


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## Fishbone Jones (25 Jul 2008)

If the CF had to follow the Occupational Health & Safety Act and Regulations, we'd all be sitting in offices at ergonomically designed workstations.


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## Harley Sailor (25 Jul 2008)

It's not just in the Army either.  After 30 years in the Navy my knees are shot from running up and down ladders as the ship in moving up and down.  My back is shot from slipping down hatches and landing on it.  My left ear is dead from sitting beside the gun while firing it.  Others have bad shoulders from lifting as the ship is rolling, or being thrown out of their bunk during ruff weather. And the list goes on.


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## Haggis (25 Jul 2008)

recceguy said:
			
		

> If the CF had to follow the Occupational Health & Safety Act and Regulations, we'd all be sitting in offices at ergonomically designed workstations.



DND and the CF is required to follow some aspects of the Canada Labour Code.  Every unit is mandated to have a General Safety Committee to deal with OH&S matters.

I work at NDHQ and have been the Military co-chair on our directorate's Health & Safety committee.  Although it's true that DND/CF is exempt from certain OH&S legislation, in garrisons and HQs the regulations must be applied due to the mixed civilian/military workplace/workforce.  There have been cases where CF members have faced NDA and/or criminal charges arising from workplace "industrial" accidents which have cause death or injury.

Once deployed, however, the principle of unlimited liability effectively cancels out many OH&S requirements that could hinder the execution of the mission.  Even so, every injury and death while deployed must be investigated to ensure we can lessen the risks for others.  In the final analysis, a possible negligent discharge could be interpreted as a workplace accident and be investigated as such.


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## Sig_Des (25 Jul 2008)

Haggis said:
			
		

> DND and the CF is required to follow some aspects of the Canada Labour Code.  Every unit is mandated to have a General Safety Committee to deal with OH&S matters.
> 
> I work at NDHQ and have been the Military co-chair on our directorate's Health & Safety committee.  Although it's true that DND/CF is exempt from certain OH&S legislation, in garrisons and HQs the regulations must be applied due to the mixed civilian/military workplace/workforce.  There have been cases where CF members have faced NDA and/or criminal charges arising from workplace "industrial" accidents which have cause death or injury.
> 
> Once deployed, however, the principle of unlimited liability effectively cancels out many OH&S requirements that could hinder the execution of the mission.  Even so, every injury and death while deployed must be investigated to ensure we can lessen the risks for others.  In the final analysis, a possible negligent discharge could be interpreted as a workplace accident and be investigated as such.



Sidebar question for you, Haggis.

Any locals that we employ overseas, are we obligated to apply OH&S standards?


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## Haggis (25 Jul 2008)

Beadwindow 7 said:
			
		

> Sidebar question for you, Haggis.
> 
> Any locals that we employ overseas, are we obligated to apply OH&S standards?



in the camps, we are (morally/ethically?) obligated to provide as safe a work enviornment for them as we would for CF members,  CFPSA or OCGD employees.  Outside the wire (terps, for example) we cannot do the same as the Taliban/AQ do not provide a safe work environment that we can control.


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## blacktriangle (25 Jul 2008)

Ok looks like a common theme. Thanks guys. I'm getting out just after my 29th birthday I guess, then off to retire in the tropics  > 10.5 more years to go...


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## smithdc (23 Aug 2008)

hell, ive only been in for 2 years , done bmq sq and dp1, and i have nerve damage in 3 toes, and i already have a chit for magnums because my arches and heels are messed up, but thats just army feet, it happens, soldier on :warstory:


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## rormson (23 Aug 2008)

Definitely some chronic issues with muscles and knees. Question is do you want to end life at the finish line in perfect shape or knowing that you had fun along the way & contributed in your own way to the work and greater efforts of the CF? Civies do the same, trust me. (e.g. welders, truckers, white colllar MFs, etc.) 

PS RIP Combat Engrs - - the lads hit the ground in Trenton today. CHIMO


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## X-mo-1979 (24 Aug 2008)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Plus, when I was a much younger sapper, all senior NCOs were also cross qualified as doctors, and could instantly tell you that nothing was wrong, you were just being an idle crow.



bhaaaaaaa!

That really made a bad day a lot better!
Funny stuff...cause it's true.

p.s I was faking a broken Fibula a while back...I swear to god.Snr NCO didnt know me well I guess,seen my cast come off towards end ex and decided to say "how coinvienent it was" I could take the cast off now that the ex was done. :

Only issues I have is my ankle keeps blowing out...after it folded in half thus breaking my fib off.


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## xo31@711ret (24 Aug 2008)

44 years old: Spent 6 years in the infantry; then 18 as a medic, mostly with field units (been doing supp res / employed since). Have some 'minor' issues with my shoulder, ankle and (sometimes) back. Sometimes I think, I'm broken. But then i look at some of civvies friends I've known for +30 years; out of shape, pot belly, etc. Had a couple who kicked the bucket with the old heart before they were 50....yep, I think I'm doing ok considerin'.


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## geo (24 Aug 2008)

Heh... been in for 35+ yrs - back is in decent shape, ears are surprisingly decent shape (considering), the only real problem I have is my right knee ( darned WWB !!! ) and that only happened in the last year.  Yeah, my back & knees did ache before the big fall - but, at 54 - there are a lot of people who are younger than I who are a lot more messed up & spend a bundle to recover their health.

Must be all that clean living.


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## George Wallace (24 Aug 2008)

Let's see.......  After 30 plus years, and many of those on Tracked Vehicles, there are signs of compressed discs and arthritis in my lower back.  Years of wearing a headset, mostly over the left ear, leaving the right ear to listen to other 'outside' noise, as well as having CC'd and fired HMG and Tank, I have reduced hearing in the Left ear...........although I can still hear the Stereos of many young driver's pimped out rides in city traffic.  (Wonder what their hearing will be like before they reach their 20th birthdays?)


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## Haggis (24 Aug 2008)

30+ years; all in the Infantry; all dismounted or light units.  Two pins in my right shoulder, a staple in my left ankle, broken bones in my right foot, a 1/3 of my left knee missing. Sore back, diminished hearing (although the troops claim otherwise.. "Frigg'n sar-major hears *everything*!!!") and a VAC pension already for five years  And, after all this, I have a note on my pers and med files that says "no career limitations".


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## Fusaki (24 Aug 2008)

5 years 031, bad right knee and right ankle, nerve damage up and down my right arm, and my right shoulder dislocates if I'm not careful when I put on a jacket. But hey, it's pensionable! 8)


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## axeman (24 Aug 2008)

17 yrs 031  4 yrs navy  compressed/ deteorated c4/c5. blown back  support system. possible torn knee meniscus. shoulder troubles.  reduced hearing l/r ears . facial  burns from muzzleflash from 2 to 3 ft away eye took some of that . feet require orthotic footwear.



you win some you lose some .  ive had fun  > in the end I feel a lot of pain on some damp days  but  hey someones got to do it


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## Eye In The Sky (25 Aug 2008)

Just starting my 19th year.  I have (from a jump injury) herniated discs L4-L5, L5-S1, degenerative discs (same ones) and spinal stenosis.  I am listed as having 10% disability in the lumbar spine (by VAC), but have never had any MELs, T-CATs, and am fit full duties.  (2s on Geo and Occ in my Med Cats).  That happened in April '92, and I've made it fine since then for the most part.  The better I take care of myself...the better the injury is.

I also have fallen arches (ruck marches on cement roads) and wear orthotics, I have a bad right knee (listen when they say "don't jump off the back of the &*&@)#&@ ML troops!") and hands that were too cold too often, so the Dr thinks there might be some nerve damage.  Aside from that, there is the normal bumps and aches from falling off vehicles (stationary and otherwise), getting mashed around cross country, from humping kit around, falling into half dug trenches in the night (slit trenches and otherwise), and the other fun stuff I've come to miss the last few years.   

Your body tells you that you've used it, but I still use mine and its got lots of miles left on it.


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## Mike Baker (25 Aug 2008)

I'm not even in yet, and I have my knees totally screwed up enough that I don't think I'll be able to get in the CF (I'm still not sure what the problem is, haven't seen the doc yet for the results of my MRI). 

Stupid ball hockey, how I still love thee 


-Deadpan


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## geo (25 Aug 2008)

heh... cortizone is wearing off....
Forgot - ankles are sore - and the left thumb is causing me grief 

Guess that says a lot about my memory


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## JackD (25 Aug 2008)

Any old sappers out there are subject to "EWBB/ MGB/ Airportable Bridge/ Class 30 ferry knees/ back etc." . My bones just say "Hey! You were really an idiot some 30 years ago weren't cha?".  I can't hold a pencil/pen due to arthritis - and when it's cold, wet and miserable.. them bones let me know what the weather is like (ie. cold, wet and miserable). More so, thanks to some overenthusiastic gentleman and a rifle butt, I have problems with my jaw (which was broken and set wrong) and of course, the hearing is not what it should be - And think.. a teacher: sometimes can't speak, can't hear, can't draw  and can't see... My students just love me during exam times... Ended up with malaria too from Egypt.  As to any other problems.., fortunately, there IS Viagra... or beer


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## aesop081 (25 Aug 2008)

JackD said:
			
		

> Any old sappers out there are subject to "EWBB/ MGB/ Airportable Bridge/ Class 30 ferry knees/ back etc." .



Yup......


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## Haggis (25 Aug 2008)

JackD said:
			
		

> As to any other problems.., fortunately, there IS Viagra... or beer



To make you bigger and them prettier?   ;D


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## JackD (25 Aug 2008)

;D Of course I'm at the age where I look at some sweet young thing - well from what i can see - and I think "Hey! She's a honey! I wonder what her mom looks like?"" or " Hey! I wonder if she can cook!"" The real beauty of getting old is that when you take off the glasses - all the girls look good - fuzzy and there's usually two of them - but - hey - they look good. Not only that, but i don't need beer anymore.. Mind you, if any sweet young thing ever said sweet nothings in my ear  - she'd have to shout. I did have a honey last year in my class wrap her arms around me and say "Jack, I love you!"' then she said "'You remind me of my grandpa...just before he died''


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## Mike Baker (25 Aug 2008)

JackD said:
			
		

> I did have a honey last year in my class wrap her arms around me and say "Jack, I love you!"' then she said "'You remind me of my grandpa...just before he died''


:rofl:

You win post of the day! ;D

-Deadpan


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## JackD (25 Aug 2008)

Actually, I think she said great grandpa.. but you know hearing.. and I think she was serious, but being an old sapper, i'm kind of bent over - I do think she was a honey.. at any rate she had nice ankles


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## blacktriangle (25 Aug 2008)

Interesting. I've always thought alcohol and viagra we're needed ANYTIME you meet a girl in an army town!

I just started taking fish oil for my joints and it has been helping. I do think that my knees and shoulders will be my "hurt" points later in life. Thank you all for sharing your aches, pains...and uhh other deficiencies.


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## RubberTree (25 Aug 2008)

I think if you look at almost any occupation you will see problems. Factory workers have repetitive strain injuries, secretaries have carpal tunnel syndrome, nurses have back and knee issues, landscapers have back problems and occasionally missing digits, Pulmonologists have Tuberculosis...the list is endless.
By the nature of our occupation we are bound to become injured or disabled at some point. In addition to that, we are (generally) a thrill seeking, "why lower when you can jump" type population. The CF has done a lot to try and reduce issues through the use of protective gear (from ear protection to insoles) but it is impossible to prevent all injuries. I'm thankful that A) I was not a member 50 years ago when occupational safety was never heard of and B) VAC is there to recognize our issues and help once the inevitable occurs.


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## Redeye (25 Aug 2008)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Plus, when I was a much younger sapper, all senior NCOs were also cross qualified as doctors, and could instantly tell you that nothing was wrong, you were just being an idle crow.



It only took my first summer as an Officer Cadet to realize that.  I've got chronic achilles tendinits and a really warped foot that was most likely broken.  Fortunately, a keen Med A assessed it as a sprain, taped it up, gave me Motrin, and told me to carry on.  And I did.

I don't let it slow me down too much though - Gucci boots and good anti-inflammatories are enough most days.


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## Nfld Sapper (25 Aug 2008)

JackD said:
			
		

> Any old sappers out there are subject to "EWBB/ MGB/ Airportable Bridge/ Class 30 ferry knees/ back etc."



Does building this at the school count?  ;D


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## aesop081 (25 Aug 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Does building this at the school count?  ;D



We're talking about physical injuries not destroyed morale and insanity...... >


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## geo (25 Aug 2008)

Building bridges and viagra... at the same time ??? ... ouch - wee wullie risks getting in the way


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## X-mo-1979 (25 Aug 2008)

Taking mefloquine and cant remember where I put the phones....does that count...it's happening RIGHT NOW lol.


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## aesop081 (25 Aug 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Building bridges and viagra... at the same time ??? ... ouch - wee wullie risks getting in the way



Dont put your fingers where you wouldnt stick your..........


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## GAP (25 Aug 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Dont put your fingers where you wouldnt stick your..........



....and this is based on personnal experience?  ;D


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## PMedMoe (25 Aug 2008)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Taking mefloquine and cant remember where I put the phones....does that count...it's happening RIGHT NOW lol.



Then change medications.  It's that simple.....


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## geo (25 Aug 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Dont put your fingers where you wouldnt stick your..........



... wee Wullie and all fingers (and thumbs) present and accounted for... ;D


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## aesop081 (25 Aug 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> ... wee Wullie and all fingers (and thumbs) present and accounted for... ;D



Same here but i have been bitten once or twice by the occasional MGB / EWBB


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## geo (25 Aug 2008)

Ooooh... on that point(s), I resemble that.


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## BernDawg (25 Aug 2008)

OK Here goes 23 years so far and...
  - Bad feet from old runners and even older Cbt Boots (remember the Cornwallis cripplers!)
  - Track Back, actually it's not that bad except when I over do it.
  - Arthritis in my Knees, elbows & Shoulders (meds work so its tolerable but right now my meds are in my suitcase which is in Yellowknife and I am in Resolute Bay!, it's gonna be a long week)
  - Weakened ankles due to my next point -
  - And the piece de resistance Steel rods in both femurs anchored top and bottom with 4 screws (I snapped off the screw heads years ago Doc says that I play to rough)
  All that and I'm still deployable (barely) but it's been a hell of a ride and I wouldn't change much of it except for maybe being stupid enough to drive through the Rockies in Feb (broken legs)


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## geo (25 Aug 2008)

You're in Resolute Bay?
Been there....
didn't help my back when, coming out of the NCPC power station in mid February, (ice covered factory staircase), foot slipped & I rode the staircase down on my back.......... Yippie.... OWWWWWWWWW!!!


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## Mike Baker (25 Aug 2008)

Little off topic, but I'm double jointed quite a bit. Does that enhance the chance of injury? Or would be able to cause more problems when I reach an older age?

-Dead


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## TN2IC (25 Aug 2008)

I"m just insane in the membrane.  ;D


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## RubberTree (25 Aug 2008)

Deadpan said:
			
		

> Little off topic, but I'm double jointed quite a bit. Does that enhance the chance of injury? Or would be able to cause more problems when I reach an older age?
> 
> -Dead



Look at wikipedia under hypermobility. In short maybe and maybe. Dislocation and arthritis are both possibilities but some never have problems.


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## the 48th regulator (25 Aug 2008)

Partially blind
Hearing loss
Headaches
Muscle pain in my Right upper arm and left shoulder
Left hand swells in various places and joints hurt
Knees shot
Feet hurt on a daily basis
Back pain from lower to upper
Daily medication to stop me from making me MAD AND SMASH 

Other than that all is good.   

dileas

tess


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## blacktriangle (25 Aug 2008)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Partially blind
> Hearing loss
> Headaches
> Muscle pain in my Right upper arm and left shoulder
> ...



I was in Ottawa and put two and two together, saw your iltis. You're hardcore in my books


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## the 48th regulator (26 Aug 2008)

popnfresh said:
			
		

> I was in Ottawa and put two and two together, saw your iltis. You're hardcore in my books



That was my dopplegangers shennigans you saw...

Oh how I hate how he steals my thunder....oops, are the pink elephants talking to me again?

dileas

tess


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## danchapps (26 Aug 2008)

popnfresh said:
			
		

> I was in Ottawa and put two and two together, saw your iltis. You're hardcore in my books



I second that, I've just never wanted to say anything. And to think, I moan about my ankles being a chronic problem. It's thinking about folks like Tess and Piper that gets me through the morning jogs when the ankles flare up. I say to myself "Hey, dumbass, there are guys in worse shape then you, keep going you pansy". It usually works.


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## Redeye (26 Aug 2008)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Partially blind
> Hearing loss
> Headaches
> Muscle pain in my Right upper arm and left shoulder
> ...



Well Tess, you are sort of an exception to most of us - having been shot what, seven times?


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## daftandbarmy (26 Aug 2008)

Broken heart, Cosmo Nightclub, Fredericton, 1980.  :blotto:


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## geo (26 Aug 2008)

LOL D&B, LOL... is that all you lost ???


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## the 48th regulator (26 Aug 2008)

Redeye said:
			
		

> Well Tess, you are sort of an exception to most of us - having been shot what, seven times?



That's right seven, however the War museum has it at 5.  I have never had the heart to correct them.

dileas

tess


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## JackD (26 Aug 2008)

Then there is "Pin knee" - you know, the medical condition that comes about when the guy hits the bloody thing THEN yells "Pin out!" . However,  "Pin knee' is one thing, "Pin balls" is another...


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## geo (26 Aug 2008)

heh JackD...

In the new Acrow bridge, if you try to pinout from a certain angle, the pin abuts to a rather sturdy flange.... poor fella hammered that pin till he was blue in the face and his body was aching... before his Sgt pointed out the little alignment problem 

He won't do that ever again


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## JackD (26 Aug 2008)

Sigh.. modern stuff.. always making things complicated.. bad enough those American verses British panels - i don't know why they never made those bridgie handling parts more egonometric - you know  a bend in the carrying handles to ensure equal distribution of weight -thinking MGB here... I was put on a back course  when in  NDHQ (after going topo-surveyor) and they told me -"If it is not safe you have a right to refuse.."  That sort of indicated to me that there was a bit of a disconnect between "Puzzle-Palace'' and reality.. Certainly though some equipment could be just slightly redesigned.. and save alot of people  life-long grief - Hey any-one notice what comes up when the spell-check does ''puzzle-palace''? Neat!


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## tankie (28 Aug 2008)

Greetings, PLEASE PLEASE do not jump on and off wagons of any sort, 19 years ago i wish that some SNCO would've slapped me upside the head and pointed this out!!! *CLIMB* the handrails are there for a reason!!!

stiffness of the knee brought on by sitting in one position, arthritis left ankle, both shoulders, caused by a bug that lives in the back of the throat (Fusobacterium necrophorum)


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## daftandbarmy (1 Sep 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> LOL D&B, LOL... is that all you lost ???



Nope. Lost my ride back to Gagetown too. Ever try hitchhiking from Fredericton to Gagetown at 3.00am Sunday wearing a kilt and CF short sleeve shirt? Worked like a charm... ;D


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## Greymatters (2 Sep 2008)

20 years:
Blown left knee, right knee on its way,
Cold sensitivity in hands,
Partial hearing loss,
L4/5 sciatic nerve damage,
Gastrointestinal and autoimmune injuries,
Several broken bones...

Actually a day at the beach compared to the damage a lot of others have...


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