# All things LASIK surgery (aircrew/other -- merged)



## bossi

(I will believe it when I see it - no pun intended - up here in Canada.  I realised how cynical I‘ve become when I mused that DND will probably continue to drag its‘ feet with regard to approving laser eye surger ... probably because some penny-pincher is afraid that if they approve this procedure, then DND would have to pay for it!  Thus, it‘s in the bureaucrats‘ best interest to continue to stonewall, since really gung-ho individuals will/would continue to pay for it themselves - thereby saving DND a pretty penny ... which they‘ll need to pay for those two new executive jets for the Prime Minister ...).

Laser Surgery Battle-Worthy In Army‘s Eyes
Vision Treatment Shown To Give Soldiers an Edge 

By Steve Vogel
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, April 1, 2002; Page A01 

Army Sgt. Kevin Hayes lay flat on his back in a circular operating room at Walter Reed Army Medical Center, his right eye pried open directly beneath a laser.

"Acquired," a computer attached to the laser announced in a metallic voice, signaling that the machine was tracking Hayes‘s pupil.

A motorized instrument sliced an opening in Hayes‘s cornea. Lt. Col. Scot Bower, an Army surgeon, pressed a foot pedal, triggering a laser that delivered pulses to reshape the cornea to Hayes‘s prescription. Within minutes, Hayes, 24, was recuperating in a waiting area, slightly dazed behind protective eyeshades but no worse for the wear.

The Army is building itself a better soldier, one eye at a time.

After years of skepticism, the military is embracing laser eye surgery with enthusiasm, envisioning soldiers in Afghanistan and other hot spots who no longer have to worry about glasses fogging up or contacts popping out during combat. "It makes people into potentially better soldiers, better able to perform their duties," said Bower, director of refractive surgery at Walter Reed, in Northwest Washington.

"They‘re kind of tuned up, if you will," said Col. William P. Madigan Jr., assistant chief for ophthalmology at Walter Reed.

Just two years ago, anyone who had undergone such surgery would have been disqualified from active duty.

Now, laser eye surgery is not only allowed, but it is also actively promoted by the military. Today, Walter Reed is launching its Warfighter Refractive Eye Surgery Program. There and at other Army hospitals across the country, the surgeons expect to correct the vision of thousands of soldiers in coming years. The Air Force and Navy offer similar programs.

"There‘s a huge demand for the procedure -- probably more demand than we‘re going to be able to handle," Bower said.

The about-face came after a Department of Defense medical panel, after evaluating several years of research by the Navy, concluded that concerns about laser surgery damaging the structure of the eyes had not been borne out and that -- to the contrary -- the surgery was a way to improve the fighting forces. Congress subsequently approved $15 million for the program.

Officials are quick to point out that the laser surgery is strictly voluntary. "It‘s not a program to build an Uebermensch," Madigan said.

Nonetheless, many soldiers are encouraged by superiors to have the surgery. "Commanders are seeing the potential and wanting to have their troops treated," Bower said. "People are seeing it as combat readiness, enhancing the fighting force."

Eyeglasses have long been troublesome for soldiers, and modern warfare has made the problem worse. Increasingly, the military is employing sophisticated weapons and gadgets where glasses can get in the way. Soldiers who wear glasses need prescription inserts to wear gas masks. The same is true of goggles being developed to protect soldiers from enemy lasers.

"If your glasses steam up or fall off, you‘ve become a liability," Madigan said. "You‘re no longer part of the solution -- you‘re part of the problem."

In harsh environments where U.S. troops often are deployed, contact lenses can be even worse. Many soldiers who wore contact lenses during the Gulf War ended up ditching them and wearing glasses, Madigan said.

Laser eye surgery was approved by the Food and Drug Administration in 1995. Since then, more than 3 million Americans have had the surgery.

Bower estimated that the surgery he performed on Hayes‘s eyes would cost $2,700 to $4,500 in the civilian world.

The adverse effects reported by small percentages of patients -- including pain, glare, halos and vision left worse than it had been with glasses or contact lenses -- have not been common enough to stop performing the surgery, Army officials said.

Much of the military‘s earlier concern involved LASIK (Laser Assisted In-Situ Keratomileusis) surgery, which Hayes underwent. There were worries that the flap created in the cornea as part of the procedure might tear open in combat conditions.

As part of its review, the Army monitored how members of its elite combat force, the Rangers, fared in rugged training conditions after having the surgery. "They could jump out of planes at night, fight with pugil sticks, slog through the swamps for weeks and not have problems," Madigan said. "They reported that it gave them an edge. They didn‘t have to worry about fogging up their glasses or losing their [contact] lens."

Added Col. William Rimm, chief of ophthalmology services at Walter Reed, "We were criticized for being slow on the uptake, but we wanted some science to back it up."

The military remains reluctant about allowing LASIK surgery on aviators out of concern that high-speed ejections from aircraft could tear the flaps, officials said, and more research is being conducted.

The Army has established criteria for who should get the surgery first, according to Madigan. Top priority will be given to infantry and Special Forces, followed by others deemed likely to face combat, including armor, artillery and combat engineers -- "The people actually mixing it up," Madigan said. Within a unit, commanders may decide the priority, Madigan said.

The services estimate that 35 percent to 50 percent of service members need corrective lenses, but eligibility for laser surgery depends on the type of eye problem and other medical factors. Initially, officials predicted that perhaps 30 percent of eligible troops would opt for the procedure. But given its increasing popularity, the figure may be 70 percent to 80 percent, Rimm said.

Soldiers go through counseling before the treatment, and if a doctor senses uneasiness, the surgery is canceled, Madigan said. "The soldier always has the last say," he said.

Walter Reed‘s refractive surgery center has corrected the vision of nearly 200 service members since opening in January. Soldiers who have had the procedure have given it rave reviews.

"Being a person who‘s worn glasses since second grade, it‘s been a kick," said Marine Master Sgt. Bob Beyer of Woodbridge.

"It was 15 minutes, and I was out and seeing," said Spec. Antoine Flowers, assigned to a satellite control battalion at Fort Meade, while reporting for his one-week checkup. "This is the best thing since sliced bread. I can see."

Flowers said that word of the surgery is spreading quickly at the Army post in Anne Arundel County. "I have four more people in my unit trying to get it," Flowers said. "Everybody‘s trying to get it."


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## Fishbone Jones

We‘ll have to see if the CF med system has any money after doing the free sex changes (sorry, Gender Re-allocation (pc)).


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## Canidule

holy ****! I was laughing pretty bad when you said that recceguy, i thought it was a joke....until i decided to see if it wasnt a joke after all....and i saw that  http://www.dnd.ca/menu/maple/vol_3/Vol3_5/entrenous_e.htm 
that really isnt funny at all anymore.....what the **** is this? he wanted a ****ing free surgery so he joined the army?


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## portcullisguy

*"... Laser eye surgery for combat troops ..."*

Two steps forward...

*"... Gender-reallocation surgery for combat troops ..."* 

And, three steps back.


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## Gordon Angus Mackinlay

Ladies and Gentlemen,

It‘s a great idea, only one problem, there is absolutely no knowledge of what the long term effects of this procedure will be.

I was talking to a old friend who is an opthalmic surgeon just before Christmas, she saying that every client who has the procedure done, has to sign the relevent legal documentation in the presence of a solicitor which relieves the surgeon of any litigation due to health problems caused by this procedure in the long term!  I rang her this morning after emailing the text to her, she saying that when at a conference in Honolulo in January, they were told that this is standard in the US, so if you go blind ect, tough you have no recompense from the US Government.

Yours,
Jock in Sydney who will stick with his glasses


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## Soldier of Fortune

Yes, I have been debating with myself over this issue for a while. Does anybody know if you can wear glasses if you wanted to join a SF unit or Para unit? 
Maybe Canada should take a step at looking at contact lenses made for combat conditions and can be worn for days/weeks at a time. That would be a better investment than the ****in sex change.


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## Canidule

i might be wrong but yeah you surely can be in the SF and para if you wear glasses but glasses surely doesnt help in the field, like on discovery or tlc i dont remember which 1 there was a thing about the ranger training, there was 2 or 3 guy with glasses and none of them made it to the end(i think, but anyway its not a thing about wearing glasses or not i guess) but some legion and mercenary group dont accept anyone with glasses


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## portcullisguy

> Originally posted by Gordon Angus Mackinlay:
> [qb]It‘s a great idea, only one problem, there is absolutely no knowledge of what the long term effects of this procedure will be.
> [/qb]


True, the research that has been done (every surgery is another case for the doctor‘s research reports to medicl journals) only goes back 20 years, the date of the first radial keratotomy (RK).

LASIK is only about 4 years old, and PRK is about 10-15 years old.  LASIK is based on the PRK principle, but instead of lasering through the first layers of corneal tissue, they leave it intact by creating a flap with a speculum, thereby eliminating the need for a bandage lens after the surgery, and reducing the risks for over-regrowth.

My doctor also told me about the possibility of side-effects and that regrowth could occur that would leave your vision only slightly better than before.

My doctor also said that, in about 20 years (when I‘m 45 ... I was 25 at the time of surgery), I will probably need reading glasses in any event, as the lens in your eye hardens at about 45 from over exposure to UV light.

So I took the chance.  I can see great again, and I might get 20 useful years out of my eyes (regrowth occurs normally in the first week and is easy to treat with hormone drops).

My vision is 20/15, and has been since November 2000, when I had the surgery done.

Even if I end up needing glasses for reading in 10 years, I still have gotten 12 solid years of clear vision without corrective lenses, during my prime working years.


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## Soldier of Fortune

Portcullisguy, you‘ve convinced me, I had better start saving now!


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## Korus

hhmm... Interesting.. I‘ll have to see what unfolds over the next 5+ years or so.. It‘s not worth it to think too much about eye surgery until my vision stabilizes enough to have it...


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## noneck

I had PRK done in 1996. I was working for a Bde HQ then on Cl B and had to go to Calgary as the Cf was still kicking people out at that point.

I can honestly say that it was the best money I have ever spent. 6 years on I have no problems with halos or degenerative vision. From -2.5 in my right eye and -4.5 in my left eye I am now 20/15 in the right and 20/20 in the left.

It is also a lot cheaper now, when I had the procedure it cost me $5,500.00. Now it can be had for the equivalent cost of a couple of pairs of specs.

Get it done and don‘t look back, especially if it‘s preventing you from meeting a vision category for employment.

Alba Gu Bragh


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## Harry

All the med data to date indicates benefits.  My only concern is that you are dealing with a soft tissue that is being burnt by laser.

Nobody knows the long term effects or ramifications.  Most people will go with the time tested theory of "Worry about that when it happens".  I classify it with knee and back surgery.  Some initial probs, but they have been almost perfected. 

However the immediate recovery and improvements are in itself a very compelling justification.

Good luck if you do it.


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## rceme_rat

Search the forum - this has been discussed elsewhere just recently.

I had LASIK after getting out of the army.  Very pleased with the results.  One bad effect is that it seems my eyes get tired more often than they used to - or this may just be the result of getting a little older.

For those who can‘t understand why someone would take the risk, consider what it would be like if you woke up every morning and had to find your glasses before you could see the alarm clock, or what it must be like to be in the field with your glasses covered in rain or snow, or what it is like to have them gog up when you go into the CP, etc.

My recommendation is to go for it -- after you‘ve read as much as you can about the procedure, and talked with as many people as you need to before you are comfortable choosing a facility -- and then, go quality - don‘t try to save a few bucks - choose the latest equipment, the best surgeon, etc.  For what it‘s worth, I went with Gimble.

Oh - the comment above re liability waiver -- it IS surgery, so why wouldn‘t you expect to sign the waiver just like you do for other surgery.  Besides, the waiver relly makes you aware of what you are doing, so what‘s wrong with that?  And if the surgeon really screws up, the waiver may end up being tossed aside by the courts.


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## Jug

...is this true? That you can‘t get in as a pilot when you‘ve had your eyes corrected. I can understand it for jet fighters, but is this also a restriction for mult-engine and helos?


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## Zoomie

Yes, it is true....


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## Mat-V

I know this has been discused a couple of times, but one question was never answered.

Is there a delay you have to wait after the surgery before you can go back and make a new demand for recruitement as an infantry soldier ?

I had one medical officer talking about 6 months and a recruiter telling me there‘s no delay. I just dont know who to believe anymore !!!


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## Jug

Doesn‘t really matter if you‘ve had it for 6 months or 1 year. They‘ll still send you with some forms for your eye-surgon to fill out verifying that there wree no problems.

At the time of my app, my sight was stable 20/15 from Laser-Eye for over a year and they still had me get forms filled out for it.

Just more hoops to jump through and more red tape to rip-up.


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## Christopher

There is a delay. According to the Canadian Medical Association, it is required for patients to come in for follow-up examinations for a period of six months after you get zapped.

Within that timeframe, I believe that they won‘t completely process your medical until your eyes completely heal over and your vision stabilizes, and there are no severe complications (which is why they want the extra LASIK/PRK form filled out by your eye doctor).

I lucked out, because my medical was a day after the six-month period.


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## furyofmojo

Hi! Im not exactly sure if this is the proper place to post this question but I‘ll give it go anyways.

Im really interested in joined the canadian Armed forces but my vision is not perfect. I know the air force requires their pilots to have 20/20 vision uncorrected, but does that also include lasik eye surgery? My vision isn‘t bad actually, maybe just worse that perfect. I really want to become a pilot but if that door is closed, I will join the infantry. When I went down to the recruitment centre they made it sound as if Lasik would prevent me from joining even the infantry. Can someone with reliable information let me know what exactly the status is on people who have had lasik eye surgery done?

1) For someone who wants to become a pilot; is a perfect vision after lasik eye surgery a big No No?

2) For someone who wants to become an officer in the infantry; is a perfect vision after lasik eye surgery a big No No?

I would really appreciate a response, I was really disappointed after coming out of the recruitment centre : (


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## jonsey

1) I‘m not sure of this, but I don‘t think that laser eye surgery would help. I could be wrong, though.

2) It doesn‘t matter. Glasses, surgery, I think it‘s all good, as long as you meet the minimum sight requirement.


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## nULL

if you want to be a pilot, you must have 20/20 vision uncorrected - that includes laser eye surgury. the problem as i understand it is that during trainer, you learn to fly using planes with ejection seats, and the relation between LASIK and rapid ejections isn‘t understood very well. if you have had lasik, i believe that you have to wait a year (or was it six months?) from the date of your surgury to apply. i dunno, it‘s something like that. you couldn‘t go and apply a week after surgury, that‘s for sure. perhaps someone else could help you more, i‘m still in the recruitment process....


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## furyofmojo

Hmmmm where can I find the answers to my question? (For Sure)

I already went down to the local recruitment centre and the guy there told me that he is not sure exactly about the lasik for either infantry or pilot. He gave me a number to call where they deal with medical informations but when I called the number, it said it was no longer in service.

Hey nULL, where did you hear about having to wait 6 months to a year after lasik to apply? If the wait period is true then that must mean that people who have had lasik could still become pilots....just a matter of waiting??? 

In any case, can someone direct me to a sure proof way to find out? I am in my last year of university and I want to get into the armed forces as soon as I get out, but I need to know now about the lasik so that I can get the lasik over the reading break and still have time to heal for the force while I graduate. 

That guy at the recruiting centre didn‘t seem all that helpful or eager to recruit : ) Just sipping and spilling his coffee while reclining on his chair. haha


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## combat_medic

For any trade OTHER than pilot, CRFC will accept lasik or PRK vision correction. There is a waiting period after the surgery before you can apply.

As for being a pilot, unless you have 20/20 uncorrected vision, with perferct colour vision, then you cannot apply. This includes ALL corrections, glasses, contact lenses, and surgical corrections.

You still can be in the infantry though. And if your vision is only slightly less than 20/20, you may not need a laser correction at all.


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## furyofmojo

Argggggggg!!!!

This is not something I wanted to hear : (

Ok, I see on the broucher where it lists the requirements, that the 20/20 vision only applies to a DEO(Direct Entry Officers)

What does that mean? What?!? Does an appicant in a Continuing Education Officer Training Plan not need 20/20 vision? 

What about a serving officer in the Canadian Forces who is not MOC qualified or a serving officer in the Canadian Forces who is MOC qualified applying for the pilot program? 

 http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/pilot/entry_e.htm 

Do they need to have none lasik 20/20 vision too?

By the way whats a serving officer who is MOC qualified and not MOC qualified?

Im sorry for asking soo many questions but once I set my mind on something I don‘t let it go easily, especially if they tell me its something I CAN‘T do >: r

Is there no possible way to become a pilot in the Canadian forces if I had Lasik eye surgery? I don‘t know much except for the research I have done online and the pointless visit to the recruitment office, but can I like join the armed forces as an officer other then a pilot and then apply for it under a different plan?

I mean I am even thinking about going to flight school and getting a civilian flight license, if that will help my chances of getting into the program.

I will be graduating from university this year and I like having a routine in my life and what better place to find routine then the armed forces right? I guess if there is ABSOLUTELY no way of getting into the pilot program with lasik vision (which by the way, I think is a little odd) I guess I will settle for the infantry but it makes me soooooo angry that they are telling me that I can‘t do something...AHHHHHHHHHHH!!! 

To **** with the rules, Im gonna find some way of getting in, Im gonna find a way to weasel my way in. Anyone out there with reliable information on the recruiting process and procedures have any ideas that might be of help?

I appreciate the responses I have received already and hopefully someone knows a way or point me to the right direction. : ) Thanks


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## portcullisguy

I joined and I had lasik, but I‘m in reserve infantry.

For my lasik, they needed to see a note from the clinic that did the procedure attesting that my vision had been stable for at least 6 months prior to applying.

The reason is, after the lasik procedure, sometimes your eyes can change as they adjust to the new corneal shape, and because of the risk of regrowth affecting your vision.

As far as I am aware, you simply cannot be a pilot in the CF if you do not have perfect vision already.  Corrections are simply not accepted.  It doesn‘t matter if you are already serving and want to transfer, or if you are joining with a civvie pilots licence.  The rules are antiquated - as nearly every other job in the world accepts some level of vision correction nowadays.

But, last time I heard, those were the rules.


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## dwyer.sd

First, the right direction you are looking for is to use the rules, do what you are told you have to and do not accept rumours and speculation on a chatsite as the be-all-end-all.  Some of these people have an axe to grind.

Second, Pilots must have a 20/20 uncorrected vision, no matter what the program they are trying to enter under or what point in their career they are trying to remuster in.  So, CEOTP is only offered in some cases when not enough Degreed officers are available, so it will close at the end of this Fiscal year (31 Mar 04) and will not be offered again unless significant shortages occur.  There is no way to get into the pilot occupation with less than perfect uncorrected vision at the begining of pilot training.

Third, laser (lasik) surgery causes a weakening of the eye and significant or serious head trauma could result in a "blowout" theoretically.  This is the part of the reasoning for the six-month delay.  In all cases you will need letters from your clinic/doctor and significant research will be done by the Medical Officer who reiews your file, which may also cause a long delay.

Last, MOC qualified refers to someone who has completed all the required courses or OJT and can now work in their occupation unrestricted.  For Infantry, until you are complete Phase 4 your MOC would be 23U (U= untrained).  After Phase 4 you become 23A.

I hope this helps to alleviate some of your questions.  I wanted to be a pilot too, but am now an Inf Officer


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## furyofmojo

Im just wonder, is this vision standard higher in the canadian air force then the american air force?

I was just surfing the web and found at this site

 http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/genjoin/a/pilotvision.htm 

that they just can‘t have lasik but still enter the program with correctable vision.

I guess the canadian armed forces have higher standards for their soldiers : )


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## combat_medic

Is there no possible way to become a pilot in the Canadian forces if I had Lasik eye surgery?

NO! There is a chance that you could be in mid-flight and your corneas could tear off. There is no way you can be a pilot without 20/20 uncorrected vision. Many people have told you this, so please stop asking.

There‘s also no way you can sneak or weasel your way in. Pilot candidates (and yes, there are hundreds of kids just like you vying for that one position) go though a barrage of testing in fields like vision, but also many others. 

Every 2nd kid I speak to about recruiting wants to become a pilot (every first kid wants to be a sniper or in the JTF). There are literally THOUSANDS of applicants into the pilot program in the CF. Even if you had perfect vision, the chances of being accepted are pretty minimal. Even if you‘re 1" too tall or too short, you‘re turned down. If you tried to cheat, and were found out, you will be sent to prison.

Stop trying to cheat your way in. If you want to be a pilot that badly, then get your civilian pilot‘s lisence.


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## nULL

as i understand it furyofmojo, when LASIK is performed, the surgeons use a tool to cut a "hole" in your cornea. through this hole, they shine the laser that is used to correct your vision. at that point, the corneal "flap" is then reattached. it‘s very similar to a medical procedure where someone‘s skin on their chest is cut off and put aside so the surgeons can do their thing...when the surgeons are finished, they put the skin flap back. 

were you a pilot, and say, hit turblucence, or had to eject, there‘s always a chance that that "flap" might come apart, and as combat_medic said, more or less tear your corneas off. at that point you‘d be pretty screwed up. any passengers with you would be screwed. anybody on the ground would be screwed, doubly so if you were flying a CF-18; a friend in air cadets told me that when a fighter pilot ejects, the weapons arm so as to ensure that there is no wrackage or technology that could be salvaged by the enemy. this would obviously be serious if your plane was, say, flying over a heavily populated area.

if you are talking about the US air force, yes, they are allowing some pilots to fly with LASIK. however, the way it‘s done (again, as best i am able to understand) is that the individual has to have PERMISSION beforehand. you can‘t have it done, then apply to be a pilot; you‘d be turned away outright. they want you to have it done with THEIR surgeons. i believe the US air force academy  performs the surgery on those who exhibit excellent pilot potential - not just everyday joe off the street who wants to be a pilot. 

if it‘s any consolation, look at the bright side (get it? haha); LASIK isn‘t the ultimate laser surgury anymore. Look up something called NO TOUCHÃ‚® correction.

  http://lasereye.com/  

in this one, there is no flap cut, so in theory, it‘s much safer. before you get your hopes up (too late i imagine) remember that before any air force in the world accepted a set type of "safe" laser vision correction, they would go through years and years of trials and studies. a pilot is a big investment; after all, look how much a private licence costs - nearly 50,000 dollars for a commercial one. 

it‘s always been my dream to be a pilot as well, which is compounded with frusturation that my eyes are not quite 20/20. (-1.25L, -1.5R)

so close yet so far....

my plan has always been to get into the army reserves, finish my degree, and see where i want to go from there...regular army, or off to a certain country which (according to a recruiter i got my sister down there to contact)is currently conducting so-far favourable studies into the reliability of laser eye surgury on it‘s pilots....

but hey, it can‘t hurt to try.


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## dwyer.sd

Im just wonder, is this vision standard higher in the canadian air force 

Yes.  You must have 20/20 uncorrected when you apply and complete training.  In the years following, then your vision may deteriorate to glasses, but you can still fly.  You are a proven entity that changed.  Coming off the street already with problems you are an un-proven and untrained entitiy asking the CF to spend 2M$ on your pilots training.

Call me nutz, but I wouldn‘t advise the CF to spend 2M on a chance.


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## nULL

true, but seeing as how at the least a pilot must have a degree, they are obviously looking for someone who wants it. if XXXXXXXX has gone to the expense and trouble to make him/herself an attractive candidate...

i suppose what it comes down to picking somebody based on their hunger for the position vs someone‘s superior genetics (and possibly lower desire)

kind of like the army...would you want to recruit say, ah, a _kinda thin_ guy who wants to be there, or a guy who can do twice as many pushups and is there for the college money?

something to think about; i‘d advise the CFRC to recruit the people most likely to come out the other end.


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## jutes85

furyofmojo,

What is your prescription of your glasses or contacts?

If you are really inclined to wear contacts or glasses, and you don‘t want the risk of LASIk or anyother opperation, you may want to give  http://www.visionfreedom.com  a try, as I did. It is not exactly the same program as I did but it is close. 

My vision was about -7.5 and -7.75 before I gave this method a try. It was seriously improved my vision from where it was a month ago. Now my vision is around -4.00 in each eye and i‘m hopeing to continue until i‘m 20/20. My vision has also hindered me in becoming a pilot (In the Forces anyway).

Combat_Medic,

Is there really THOUSANDS of applications from people who want to become pilots? I‘ve herd that they are in a real shortage.


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## combat_medic

Null: The "no-touch" laser surgery is a misnomer. The laser does, in fact, touch your eye, although they do not make the corneal flap that they do with Lasik. The type of surgery is more commonly referred to as PRK, and is a more dangerous route than Lasik. Your healing time is longer, you have more chances of complications, and the outcome typically isn‘t as good. It‘s an older method, and by no means the ‘latest technology‘, but people are blinsided into having it because they think "no-touch" = less invasive, which it isn‘t. 

Jutes: There are scads of applicants to the pilot program. Many are kids with no post secondary, no skills, and in poor medical health who are rejected outright. Once you make it past the BASIC qualifications (bachelor‘s degree, good vision, reasonable health, pass the written test), the numbers are shaved down considerably, and the testing becomes more rigorous. I wouldn‘t know an exact number, but my friend at CFRC has said that they usually see several people a day who put "pilot" as their first trade choice, and this is in just one recruiting centre. There‘s a shortage because every kid and his dog wants to be a pilot, but most aren‘t even qualified enough to get though the initial screening.


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## FlightSergeantRose

"corneas could tear off"
I would really like to see if you could show me a documented situation where this occurred. I have never heard of this happening and I believe that this is no different then when the government said that African Americans couldnt be pilots because they naturally had bad night vision. They just made it up for whatever stupid reason.
If you can show me something documented, then Ill take what I said back.


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## combat_medic

BadBird: I never said it was a logical reason, but no one has ever taken someone with laser correction up to supersonic speeds and whipped them around to see if they could tear their corneas off. It‘s a slight risk, but one that the government isn‘t willing to take until the long term effects of laser surgery are better documented, and have more time behind them. Maybe in 10 years, they‘ll change their minds. Until then, those are the rules.


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## nULL

combat_medic...i know about the risks with PRK, but i was under the impression that in that case, the surgeon used a scalpel to scrape away the cornea? The initial advantages to LASIK were that the eye was "suctioned still" and the machine (m-something) would make the cut, so no doctor-error. i was pretty sure that No TouchÃ‚® was a completely new method, it being paired with the relatively new Wavefront method of laser mapping the eye...?

then again, you‘re the medic, heh, so i‘m gonna lose this no matter what    

i wonder if they‘ll ever get to the point of performing LASIK on an ape, strapping it into a jet, and ejecting it somewhere over cold lake to see if the corneas tear off? you‘d think that would save alot of time...


EDIT: quote from the no touch people "As defined above, this technique involves total epithelial removal with the laser, a technique developed at London Place Eye Centre Inc. This is coupled with a multi-pass/multi-zone method and advanced lasers with the most updated hardware and software used anywhere in the world. Techniques such as standard PRK and LASIK that utilize manual epithelial removal introduce many variables that are eliminated with ‘no touchââ€žÂ¢‘."

ahh...i think i "see" where you‘re going with this.

"....Techniques such as standard PRK and LASIK that utilize..."

standard? so i guess this IS just more advanced.


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## furyofmojo

jutes, to answer your question. My prescription is -2.25.

By the way whats the exact program you did called?

That visionfreedom place looks a little shady but I‘ll take a closer look anyways : ) thanks for your reply.

Combat_medic, sorry if Im starting to get on your nerves. 

I was just really excited about it when I saw the advertisements for the pilot program. I got even more excited when my best friends cousin got accepted for one of the fighter pilot spots earlier this year or something. I was really hoping uncorrected didn‘t count lasik. I mean as far as I can see I think I would have been a pretty good candidate; the right size, build, shape, education. (But then what can I SEE? excuse the pun, hehe)

Now im really sorry to bring this point up, but seeing as how people on the replies are talking about the extreme cases of the dangers of lasik on pilots; helicopter pilots or cargo pilots don‘t have too much of a worry with the high Gs : )

I guess either eye exercises like the one jutes is talking about is going to help fix my vision or it off to the infantry for me.


----------



## combat_medic

null: here‘s an excerpt from a laser surgeon whom I‘ve met with and discussed the procedure with:

 What is "No Touch" or "touchless" PRK?

"No touch" is transepithelial PRK (Photorefractivekeratotomy) with the where the top layer of the cornea (the epithelium) is removed by the laser beam.

Is this method of removing the epithelium the most accurate?

In my opinion as a surgeon, it is not as accurate as using the cornea‘s natural plane between epithelium and it‘s underlying tissue to gently wipe away the epithelium. All methods of epithelial removal yield very similar outcomes. I have no strong oppinion on one method versus another. I have performed several different techniques and have selected the method I use as in my hands it is the most accruate.

Does a surgical instrument touch the eye in the "No Touch" procedure?

The laser is a surgical instrument. It removes tissue from your eye. The only way to correct vision without touching the eye is to wear glasses (contact lenses touch the eye).

Which is a better procedure, LASIK or PRK? This is best determined by a discussion with your doctor and by having a pre operative eye evaluation. Generally speaking for low corrections, both LASIK & PRK can provide excellent results. With the LASIK procedure the advantages include little or no pain, faster healing time, minimal regression and low incidence of scarring. For moderate to high levels of correction, LASIK is generally preferred. 95% of surgeons prefer LASIK. Of this group, PRK is reserved for a select group of patients i.e., patients with scarring on the eye that require surface removal, as well as patients with occupations where risk of direct trauma to the eye (boxers, martial arts professionals) etc make PRK the more desirable procedure. If one does not have enough corneal tissue for LASIK, PRK is the safest and most preferred method. 

In essence, PRK and "no-touch" are the same thing.


----------



## dwyer.sd

Since nobody is going to tear cornea off to check the feasability study and to confirm that "**** yeah when I went too fast my eyes tore open" effect, the Medical Officers within the CF are of the opinion that, eye surgery weakens the strength of the cornea for an indeffinite period of time.  This being said, anyone who is employed in a high impact or physically stressful employment (Cbt Arms, pilots?)where a blow to the head can occur at almost any time during training, be it from a rifle butt on your shoulder on the obstacle course, a high G turn or hard landing, paratrooping, it is not recommended.

The skull is made up if plates, a hard blow to the head can cause swelling of the brain, plate movements and general pressure build-up inside the skull.  Physics would dictate that pressure escapes through the path of least resitence.  Put the pegs in the holes and you have weakened cornea = BLOW-OUT!  Remember, people at risk for irreversible injuries are not going to get into the military, we can‘t take the risk.


----------



## portcullisguy

LASIK = This is a laser keratotomy (skin removal) in which the subcorneal layers are removed to reshape the light passing through the cornea.  It involves leaving the top 1-4 layers of corneal tissue intact, and burning the middle 5-7 layers with a laser.  To qualify for the procedure, you must have a minimum corneal thickness in order to allow the flap incision.

PRK = Photo Refractive Keratotmy.  In this procedure, which has been practiced for nearly 20 years now, a laser simply removes the corneal tissue all the way from layer 1 to about 7.  There is a significant recovery time because layers 1-4 will regrow to approximately their original depth and shape, leaving the middle layers to remain as they were altered.  This requires wearing a contact lens bandage during recovery time, but has less chance of infection generally.

Radial Ortho-K = This procedure does NOT involve a laser, and is the oldest method of surgical eye correction.  A surgeon makes incisions in a number of radials on the surface of the cornea.  The scar tissue then reshapes the cornea as the eye heals.  This has been associated with "star patterns" when viewing bright lights at night, and other vision problems, because of the presence of the radial incision scars.

All of these procedures involve weaking the structure of the eye to some level, and for that reason, all of them have been at one time or another a bar to many types of employment.

I was looking at applying to the police several years ago, and it was a transitional phase in police employment.  They didn‘t want to hire people who had any of the surgeries, in a lot of cases, because of the unknown long term risks.  But, many police agencies changed their policy when they realized the risks were minimal for the job, and they needed more applicants.

However, the CF only has so many pilot positions, and can‘t afford to spend good money on bad risks, so I completely understand why they do not accept any form of vision correction for new applicants.


----------



## FlightSergeantRose

The CF should not be turning people away based on a thesis of their own making without any substantiated facts;  not even remotely proven at all.


----------



## jutes85

> By the way whats the exact program you did called?


Well, my program is called "Vision Freedom", although it is written by a different person then that of the website I gave you. My program is written by an ex-pilot. I bought the booklet he had a while back but never really had time to actually do the excersises until a couple months ago. It has really helped me, like I said, it naturally improved my vision by 50%, i‘m very happy.

P.S. If any of you guys are considering LASIK or any other kind of surgery, Canada is the right country for it. A doctor in Vancouver has something like a 99% success rate.


----------



## Korus

BadBird, the CF didn‘t make up their own thesis. Many other organizations have similar policies. It‘s a relatively new procedure, the fact of the matter is no one knows for sure how eyes will react, even over the long term. What happens if, 10-20 years down the road, people start having trouble due to long term effects?

However, there are studies being made into the effects..


----------



## FlightSergeantRose

Is there a website for one of those studies so I may inquire?


----------



## Korus

Do a search on  http://www.google.ca .

I‘m sure you‘ll find something there.


----------



## FlightSergeantRose

I was asking because if you say there are studies then you must know of some specifically. By giving me a search engine I guess you dont.


----------



## furyofmojo

......

I am starting to worry a little bit about even getting the lasik. I think my eyes meet the minimum requirement for Officer in infantry without lasik, but I was hoping to get his done regardless of the military. Im now thinking I should wait it out a little.

Hmmmmm do you guys know how long the lasik procedures have been around for? I‘ve tried to research a little but they all just summerize the same arguement; that there is a chance of lossing night vision. They don‘t actually tell you how long its been around for and what kind of actual studies have been done so far.....a sides from the purely speculative opinions of doctors.

I am wondering, seeing as how this topic seems to be fairly popular, if anyone would like to share some specifics on this topic. Some opinions and informations from medics or someone of that sort would be really useful.

Thanks.


----------



## Korus

> I was asking because if you say there are studies then you must know of some specifically. By giving me a search engine I guess you dont.


Don‘t pull that BS on me.

I‘m giving you a search engine because I don‘t have the time to look for websites for you. There are plenty of articles reporting findings of various studies that i‘ve come across, but they‘ve all been in print, and to be honest It haven‘t been paying attention to it in the past year or so. Keep in mind that just because something doesn‘t have a .com URL doesn‘t mean it doesn‘t exist.

If you need some direction, try looking for information on the study the US Navy started in the early 90‘s (1993, IIRC). I know the US Army is condcting studies as well. These studies have been big on changing the US military policies on laser eye surgery.


----------



## nULL

the military seems to be an organization largely based on the physical attributes of an individual. some things, like lack of muscle/weight you can work on...albeit slowly. when it comes to delicate and inheritable characteristics though, such as eyes, you may just have to recognize that you‘re SOL. i can sympathize with anyone wanting to become a pilot, but can‘t because of their eyes. on one hand, i‘m setting myself up NOW to be an attractive candidate...getting in shape, getting prior military experience(hopefully!), finishing my degree (2 years left!!!)...even though it may not matter in the end. i‘m having problems enough putting myself through a poli sci degree, let along pilot school.

go beat up your parents for screwing you over, because when it comes down to it, it really was THEIR fault, not the governments. they have a vested interest in getting the most for their money, and genetically inferior pilots aren‘t it.


----------



## medic65726

> Originally posted by Royal:
> [qb]The skull is made up if plates, a hard blow to the head can cause swelling of the brain, plate movements and general pressure build-up inside the skull.  Physics would dictate that pressure escapes through the path of least resitence.  Put the pegs in the holes and you have weakened cornea = BLOW-OUT!  Remember, people at risk for irreversible injuries are not going to get into the military, we can‘t take the risk. [/qb]


You might want to have a chat with someone with an emergency medicine background about what happens in severe head injuries. The plates of the skull move only if they are fractured, your brain is inside a bony vault and swelling/pressure will push your brain out of the base of your skull (transtentorial herniation) before it pops out of your eyes. Increased intracranial pressure can put pressure on the optic nerve, affecting pupillary response and vision (which is OK, because you should be deeply unconscious by that point). The only other thing that could happen to your eye is that it gets avulsed (popped out) by blunt force trauma to your head. All of these things can happen to anyone, regardless of pre-existing conditions.


----------



## ludacris

I know this topics been touched upon a few times, but after getting laser eye surgery, does it restrict you from anything... does the canadian army approve of the procedure?


----------



## tabernac

It would be the Air Force that contols that. Even though you are a griffon pilot, you still belong to the Air Force.
To add to the subject, does anyone know whether people with glasses can become pilots? Same thing with the eye surgury. Is it an approved procedure?


----------



## Stephen

No and no.  20/20 unassisted vision to become a pilot.  That means no surgery, no contacts, no glasses.


----------



## tabernac

S***. stupid rules. Sure hope your wrong. How did you find out anyway? The online recruiting site was of no use. I expect that no one even awnsers the emails they recieve.


----------



## Thompson_JM

Sorry Monkey... but last i checked its true..

if you dont have perfect vision from the get go, then no pilot for ya. Im really sorry.


----------



## Michael OLeary

The requirement for pilot training is "at least 20/20 vision uncorrected." Once trained some deterioration and correction by contacts or glasses may be within the existing restrictions.

22 Questions with four Canadian CF-18 Pilots - see question #11) 

Prepare for Takeoff - (see page 4 for requirements)


----------



## Jarnhamar

Go join the infantry.


----------



## tabernac

So it has to perfect. Not just slightly corected? Like within the 2 accepable levels? Ever since my dad read me an article about the lack of CF-18 pilots, I have wanted to be a pilot. As for the infantry... right now, no. In a couple of years, I might reconsider, but it would take some coaxing. Hows the pay for an engineer?


----------



## combat_medic

Several people have already told you. 20/20 uncorrected, unassisted vision. Absolutely NO glasses, no contacts, no laser eye surgery, nothing. Please listen to what people are telling you. There isn‘t leniency in this case, and several dozen people have already asked this question.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Join the infantry. You can fly helicoters and CF18s after you join. Its like a QL5 course or something.


----------



## ZipperHead

> Originally posted by Ghost778:
> [qb] Join the infantry. You can fly helicoters and CF18s after you join. Its like a QL5 course or something. [/qb]


I know that sarcasm is difficult to detect in print, so I will assume that you are being sarcastic, based on your experience stated in your profile.

For the non-military types who might believe this, don‘t. Just because it‘s on the Internet doesn‘t make it true. 

You can in practice become a pilot after joining, but you have to become an officer, and still undergo all the normal flight training that you would if you walked in off civvie street. There are more than a few programs that allow for this, but it won‘t happen until you‘ve been in for at least your first Basic Engagement (3 years), and then it‘s based on competition.

Anyway, hope that puts that tall tale to rest.

Allan


----------



## tabernac

Thanks for the help guys. Now to plan B(pray that they change the no laser eye surgery rule).      But if they don‘t change the rule, Il‘l go through RMC and join an Engineering Corps. O well dreams are still dreams.


----------



## Armymedic

Not entirely correct people...

To enter the CF as a pilot:

yes, you need 20/20 uncorrected, but the CF has leaned towards trained pilots getting laser eye surgery to maintain the "perfect vision".

But for Air crew (navigators, loadmasters, etc) You may get laser eye surgery to have what is called V1 or vision catagory 1 which is no less then 25/20 as you all would call it.

In the Army, the only vision catagory requirements above V3 are for Cbt divers which are a specialty of the Engineers. They have to be no less then V2(actually you can read for anyone that can become a ships diver, including medics). Also for interest of you wanna-bes, SAR Tech is a V2 as well because of thier diving/flying requirements. 

Then if you are below spec, you may get the surgery if...

1. Granted permission from CO,
2. Go on 6 - 12 temp medical catagory,
3. Pay for it yourself..

Then you have to be cleared V2 or higher by Opthamoligist (if your paying $1500, your eyes better be V1).


----------



## ludacris

yea no one answered about teh army, i dont care about the airforce, for the army, are you restricted wth having glasses or laser eye surgery to anything, ie, airborne or jtf-2 or infantry.


----------



## Korus

Ludacris, re-read ArmyMedic‘s post.... 

Basically for the army, you can have glasses and/or eye surgery.. If your eyes are really bad, however, you can be restricted from certain trades, if not the military in general.


----------



## Shockwave

I was very close to getting Laser Eye surgery about a year ago but decided to wait because the doctor told me I need to go throught at LEAST two months of little to no extreme physical activity because any sweat that enters they eyes will likley lead to infection.


----------



## buglog1

I find it suspect that a lot of the doctors performing these procedures seem to employ the use of glasses.  Hhhmmmmmmmmmmm....


----------



## bossi

Interesting.  Too bad the Canadian Forces doesn't similarly realise the BENEFITS of providing a similar service to Canadian troops (but, of course, I suspect some bean-counter would say it costs too much ... or that there's "no entitlement", since it's not covered by provincial health care programs ... ignoring the simple fact that provincial health care programs are not designed to produce combat-ready soldiers ...)


US soldiers flock to laser eye clinic
By Kimberly Hefling, Associated Press  |  September 26, 2004

FORT CAMPBELL, Ky. -- Command Sergeant Major Kurt Pinero looked up from the operating table after laser eye surgery, and made out the pictures on the television screen across the room.

"It was amazing," said the 45-year-old Iraq war veteran. "It was the first time I could see that far since I was a child."

After months in the Iraqi desert fumbling with dusty contacts, smudged eyeglasses, and prescription goggles, soldiers by the thousands are flocking to get refractive eye surgery.

And the Army is picking up the tab.

"Our workload and number of patients has gone through the roof," said Major Glenn Sanford of the two-year-old Warfighter Refractive Eye Surgery Clinic at Fort Campbell's Blanchfield Army Hospital.

About 26,000 soldiers have undergone the surgery at Army clinics nationwide since it was first made available four years ago at Fort Bragg, N.C.

More than 9,000 of the operations have been done at Fort Bragg, and 8,000 other soldiers at the post are on a waiting list to have the procedure between now and January, when many are scheduled to be deployed.

The military sees this surgery as a way to help soldiers see better on the battlefield, where split-second decisions can save lives. Soldiers without glasses can also use instruments such as night-vision goggles with less trouble.

In combat, soldiers who lose their glasses are not only a danger to themselves, but also to others

Priority for the surgery is typically given to the soldiers most likely to be in combat. It is offered at eight Army medical centers, and at least 10 Navy and Air Force medical facilities.

The surgery costs the Army about $1,000 per soldier, compared with an average $1,785 per eye in the civilian sector.

In 1993, the military's first refractive surgery program started at Naval Medical Center San Diego. The surgery was done on Navy SEALS; many had problems with losing contacts or glasses while parachuting or in the water.

Of 450,000 active Army soldiers, an estimated one-third are potentially eligible for surgery, said Colonel Kraig Bowers, refractive surgery consultant for the Army surgeon general.

But with its current funding, the Army can treat only about 10,000 to 12,000 soldiers a year.

Lieutenant Colonel Mark Torres, an optometrist who has analyzed surveys of soldiers who have been deployed with and without the surgery, said they say overwhelmingly that it was a benefit.

"We look at this surgery as a performance-enhancing procedure that gives us a soldier that's better able to function," said Torres, chief of refractive surgery at the Madigan Army Medical Center at Fort Lewis, Wash.

The two procedures commonly done by the military are photorefractive keratectomy, or PRK, and laser keratomileusis, or LASIK.

In PRK surgery, a laser is used to reshape the surface of the cornea. LASIK involves cutting a flap in the cornea and using a laser to reshape exposed tissue before the flap is put back.


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## Scratch_043

bossi, I was wondering, could you give me the web adress of this article?
I would like to send it to my father, he is in the business.


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## bossi

Sure!  (as long as you tell him to give me the "family" discount ... chuckle!  No - not THAT Family ...)
http://www.boston.com/news/world/ar...of_american_troops_on_the_front_lines?mode=PF


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## Scratch_043

sure, but he is not in the laser surgery, he sells the prescription swimming goggles, and I thought he might want to take a look at the article, especially the part about the soldier wearing goggles in Iraq.


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## Jarnhamar

I hear theres a big market for swimming goggles in iraq


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## Scott

I find it hard to believe that the CF hasn't gotten on the ball and starting providing funds for soldiers who want the surgery. I have found that alot of emergency services departments out there get a deal going for their employees with clinics. In 2000 you could go through the Halifax Fire Dept and get 50% off of your surgery or anyone's in your family. ALOT of guys used this to their advantage. The CF probably can't afford to cover it all but, IMHO, they should be eating some of the cost. The surgery gets better by the day, less risks, better results, etc. they should take the plunge sometime.


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## Korus

It's cheaper for the CF to provide an uncommon medical service for free (say a surgery that only one or 2 members need.. not hinting at anything specific  : ) than to provide a surgery that many soldiers could use to vastly improve the effectiveness of how they carry out their job.


----------



## Scott

I am sure that there could be some sort of deal worked where the surgery could be made cheaper. Spend a bit of the budget, have the CF's Med Staff go look at surgeons in certain cities, say, Vancouver, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Ottawa, Toronto, Fredericton and Halifax. Have them find the ones that they like the most and then approach these places and ask them if they'd like some advertising done on their behalf on Military bases. Most would probably jump at that and also be willing to drop the price a bit for members. As I said before, it has worked great in some fire services across the country.

Just thoughts


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## George Wallace

~RoKo~ said:
			
		

> It's cheaper for the CF to provide an uncommon medical service for free (say a surgery that only one or 2 members need.. not hinting at anything specific : ) than to provide a surgery that many soldiers could use to vastly improve the effectiveness of how they carry out their job.



Now you should know better than that.  If it were to make sense and be cost effective over the long run our government and DND heirarchy will not go for it.  Now if it is for some whinning visible minority or just outright illogical, then they will go for it. :

I would subscribe to it.  I've worn glasses a long time and hate them, although they have saved my eyes in the case of a "cook off".

GW


----------



## PPCLI Guy

I think that you will find that the official position is that laser surgery can have an effect on your night vision, which is why the CF does not offer the surgery.


----------



## Scott

It may affect your night vision, yes, but I believe that the CF allows you to have the surgery. When I did the processing they told me that if I were to have the surgery as a potential recruit that I would have to wait for one year and then have my eyes re checked before I could get an offer of employment. I know that I did discuss the possibility of surgery while I was a member and for the life of me can't remember the answer I was given. Seems to me that they told me that I could not do major exercises or deployments for that one year.....Someone here must have some experience with this.........?


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## Piccillo

sure it may effect your night vision...may..and even still we have the wonders of NVG's 

i wear glasses, have since i was 5. i am also joning the army next year hopfully. I intend to get the surgury whenever i can afford it (average of $3000 i assume, prolly not covered with the coverage we get up here, to costly for a part time worker.) and if i have to wait an additional year, that will suck but ill take it anyday.

if the CF would go for this (and its totally pratical) people like myself can get the surgury sooner and at lower cost. everyone wins...cept the military budget


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## Scott

Piccillo, there are places that offer financing for laser surgery, look at some on the internet, it may help. I researched one out of Vancouver that can get your surgery done for payments of as low as 30 bucks a month. Food for thought


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## Piccillo

im all the way the heck in ontario, but that IS food for thought and i can tell you i will be looking further into this over the next month...(a trip to the optomitrist as well to get more information)

thanx for bringing that up thou ^_^ i prolly wouldnt have found out on my own for months.


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## Scott

Optometrists are the best source of info, mine gave me a bunch of inside info as he used to work at a refractive surgery center, and, like I said, use google, google finds all. Either way though you are going to need to go see your Doc before getting the beams of light fired into your lookers!


----------



## Piccillo

my glasses recently actually broke (had them 4 years, i guess the hinge wore out or sumthing, first time they broke ) and ima go down to his office somtime within the week to get it all fixed up nice nice. ill speak to them then about getting any and all information i can get about this. ^_^


----------



## Blindspot

scott1nsh said:
			
		

> Optometrists are the best source of info, mine gave me a bunch of inside info as he used to work at a refractive surgery center, and, like I said, use google, google finds all. Either way though you are going to need to go see your Doc before getting the beams of light fired into your lookers!



Hmm... I wonder if this is true. My Optometrist (I'm looking for a new one) also sells glasses, frames and contacts including the associated annual checkup plans that go along with them. Though he has told me after questioning that I am a candidate for surgery, he still has reservations about the long term effects. Now, he makes a tidy some off me for all the non appointment residuals. How would it benefit him financially if I were to seek permanent vision correction? Conversely, perhaps I'm just being cynical, but is there any possibility that optometrists can make a commission for referring patients to clinics? I'm not aware if this is considered ethical or not or the legality. I have always been a little nervous about asking questions of medical practitioners who's practice is not funded by healthcare and getting an honest, "good for me" answer.


----------



## bossi

Blindspot said:
			
		

> ... My Optometrist ... still has reservations about the long term effects ...



These eye surgeries are still relatively new, thus it's a fact that there's just not enough empirical data yet.
Thus, the CF initially erred on the side of caution (i.e. until there was more info).
Now we're seeing and hearing more from people who've had the procedures, so a "track record" is emerging.

Personally, I decided to wait a few years rather than get something done and then suffer from side-effects when I could least afford it (i.e. I could have had the procedure done years ago, but if anything had gone wrong it could have impacted upon that time of life just before I'm ready to be put out to pasture ...)

Anyway - there's tons of data becoming available in reputable sources such as medical journals.


----------



## HollywoodHitman

Don't tell anyone, but I've had the surgery. Best money I ever spent and my medical category is green all around. Yes the Army knows about it. I cannot become a Navy Diver. WAH! Everything else, I am good to go. the CF will come on board eventually. the night vision thing is a possibility, but I havent' had a single problem with my eyes since I had it done in 1999.

Like I said, best money I ever spent.


----------



## SilentWolf

Hi, and greetings from the USA. My current and main goal is to be a soldier. I would like to join the United States Marines, however, there is a problem... My eyesight is very poor. It is -9.0 in my left eye, and -8.0 in my right. I am getting laser eye surgery within a few months, but the US military does not take anyone with eyesight worse than -8.0 points in any eye, even if you have surgery to correct it to 20/20 vision. So, I figured, if plan A doesn't work, I'd move up north, become a legal resident, and join the CF. So far it looks good, since I haven't seen anything that would prevent me from serving in Canada. I have not seen any policies regarding LASIK for enlisted members, and I don't think that they have a policy where LASIK automatically disqualifies you from entry if your vision meets acceptable standards after surgery. This is all based on educated guesses though, and I would like concrete answers. Is there anyone here that knows official CF Army policy torwards LASIK, and if there are any waivers required. It's not asked on the application if you've had LASIK (I checked), and I have not found any policies, anywhere that would bar me from entry, but again, I really want to hear answers from someone who had "been there, and done that". Recruiters won't answer me over email, or tell me where to find info, so do any of you know. Thanks alot, and the help is really appreciated...


----------



## Redeye

One of my Section Commanders had LASIK earlier this year.  No problems that I heard.


----------



## m_a_c

All applicants require a thorough medical examination, followed by a description of limitations (if any), and assignment of an appropriate and approved medical category. Applicants will not be medically disqualified on the basis of a diagnosis or disease but only because of employment medical restrictions. The examination includes measuring your heart rate, your blood pressure, your cholesterol, etc. and you will have to provide a urine sample. 

Applicants who have corrective lenses should bring any glasses or contact lenses, as well as a copy of their prescription (if available). Applicants must NOT wear contact lenses for a period of 24 hours (for soft lenses) or 72 hours (for hard lenses) prior to their eye examination in order to have a valid unaided vision test. Applicants should avoid any unnecessary noise exposure for 48 hours prior to hearing testing. Aircrew applicants need to fast for 14 hours prior to blood being drawn for lipid testing.

I pulled this blurb from the recruiting site http://www.recruiting.dnd.ca/engraph/howtojoin/med_examination_e.aspx

There does not seem to be anything on laser eye surgery.  That being said I have worked with a number of soldiers in the CF who have had corrective laser eye surgery.  The military had no issues with this, the only issue is that the military does not pay for it.  Hope this helps, good luck with your recruiting.


----------



## SilentWolf

Thank you very much for the info. Like I said, it doesn't appear that I'll have any problems getting in, but I wanted to make sure. That's really good news, I'm glad to see that I won't have to completely give up on a military career. PS, I'm looking into getting into Airborne Infantry, do they have any special requirements?


----------



## m_a_c

You should do a search on the forums for that one.  I believe there has been much discussion on that issue.  You would need to join the infantry first then get your basic jump qualification.  The first step is joining the infantry.  Hope this helps.


----------



## shootergurl

I have read other postings on this site that indicate that a 6 month wait is required between the surgery and your application to the CF.  i was also told the same thing by a recruiter.  This reason is so that they can ensure that nothing went wrong with the surgery and that you have healed properly.  I think there are still some limiataions -  can't  be a pilot etc.


----------



## 043

Just a question but............why does the army need to know?


----------



## Michael OLeary

Mike Cotts said:
			
		

> Just a question but............why does the army need to know?



The Army needs to know a complete medical history so that it can efficiently diagnose and treat problems you may have while serving. They also need to know such issues to ensure you are assigned a medical category which properly fits your correct medical history and condition. Hiding any condition constitutes fraudulent enrolment, if it leads to injuries in service by a recurrence or failure of concealed treatment, you may not be eligible for release benefits or medical pension. If you are granted a medical category, and possibly a trade, that exceeds what a proper assessment would justify, you may be putting yourself and your fellow soldiers in danger if the training requirements exceed the limits of your physical capabilities. And, finally, if we cannot trust someone to admit to their medical history, and have the personal integrity to accept the limits that may impose, how would we trust them with our lives in training or operations.  This is real life, there is no reset button.


----------



## SilentWolf

Yeah, that's exactly why I wan't to be nice and honest about all of this, I don't want things to come  up and bite me in the rear later on...


----------



## openclass

SilentWolf, I am going through the recruiting process right now and I had LASIK in the summer.  The first thing I would like to say is that I think you are mistaken about the USMC not accepting laser eye vision.  I have read numerous reports in the media about the US military paying for the procedure for frontline soldiers.  The reason is that sodiers with glasses can't use night vision goggles:  plus glasses are a pain in the a** when doing any sort of outdoor activity.  I can even recall TV news item (CNN, NBC, ABC, etc...) about the US airforce sending pilot candidates to an eye surgery clinic.  I guess the air force was turning away too many good candiates (and accepting too many marginal candidates just because they had 20/20 vision.) due to a correctible problem.

The current policy of the CF for applicants is to have them wait for 6 months to make sure everything turned out okay (no halos, dry eyes, starbursts, stable vision, blah, blah).  The guy who did my medical said the CF was about to change this policy to 3 months;  as a result he gave me extra forms to get filled out 3 months post-op by my surgeon.  Most police departments make applicants wait 3 months after surgery before they can be cleared medically so I guess the CF is just going along with the crowd.

If your prescription is -8 I would definately consider getting the procedure whether you enter the military or not.  Wow, -8 is basically blind.  I was -2.75 in both eyes and that was bad enough.  Do yourself a favour and get a second opinion from an eye doctor who does not do the procedure.  The Lasik clinics always say "you are an excellent candidate for the surgery" so you can't trust them.  I spent quite a bit of time researching the procedure and there can be serious complications.


----------



## SilentWolf

Yes, the Marine Corps takes people with a history of Lasik surgery. It's a simple waiver process... IF your eyesight was no less than -8.0 points BEFORE surgery. My left eye is -9.0 points, so I'm automatically DQ'd even if I have perfect eyesight afterwards. Bad policy? Yes, but I don't think that I can do anything about that for now...


----------



## SaskCiv

I currently wear glasses and really want to join the Air Force and become a pilot. But you have to have 20/20 vision uncorrected in order to become one. If you get laser eye surgery to fix the problem, will the military allow you to become a pilot? Or should people with bad eyes not hold such ambitions?


----------



## beach_bum

As it states "20/20 uncorrected".  Laser surgery would fall into the corrected category.


----------



## SaskCiv

So that would be a no?  :crybaby: Well, maybe I could be an air navigator...or join the navy or something.


----------



## Inch

http://army.ca/forums/threads/17651/post-83632.html#msg83632
http://army.ca/forums/threads/18111.0.html

Here's two threads on it. The short answer is no corrective means whatsoever, including laser eye surgery. Sorry but that's the way it is.


----------



## jwwood

For those of you looking for more specific information visit the website below. It is a statement of the visual requirments for aircrew, including pilot.
http://www.toronto.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/medical/visreq_e.html


----------



## Spooks

I suppose this should be on the recruiting forum, but this one is here.

What is the period you have to wait after your operation/procedure before you can enlist. My brother has V4 and needs a V3 or higher to get into the combat arms (Sapper) and was wondering. I had no clue myself.

-Spooks


----------



## combat_medic

It depends on the type of surgery you have. Call your local recruiting office if you want to get specific details, but I think it's around a year at least.


----------



## FredDaHead

Last time I inquired (might have changed since then) it was 6 months minimum for LASIK, but it could be longer depending on how well your eyes had healed. But like combat_medic said, you should call your recruiting office.


----------



## OatmealSavage

Shockwave said:
			
		

> I was very close to getting Laser Eye surgery about a year ago but decided to wait because the doctor told me I need to go throught at LEAST two months of little to no extreme physical activity because any sweat that enters they eyes will likley lead to infection.


Get a new doctor, that one is incompetent. The cut closes up in a day or so, and they ask that you to refrain from wrestling for a couple weeks until the cut completely heals. I was told the army (reg force anyway) expects you to wait a year for your vision category to stabilize. What I did, since I was in the Comm Res, is just get it done and tell them about it later. The only reason I told them is because I was looking into re-badging.   If you haven't joined yet and your eyes work and they don't specifically ask, don't tell.


----------



## Sapper6

cheeky_monkey said:
			
		

> Thanks for the help guys. Now to plan B(pray that they change the no laser eye surgery rule).        But if they don't change the rule, Il'l go through RMC and join an Engineering Corps. O well dreams are still dreams.



Whoa there tiger!   As a combat engineer, we only want the best.   So, if your heart isn't in it don't bother applying to the Engineers. 

Ubique.

S6 Out


----------



## Hansol

hey all, just figured i'd add my two cents.

If you want to be a pilot, and your eyes need ANY sort of correction, you are fucked. Simple as that.

I got my eyes lasered for the specific reason of being able to join the infantry. It is a six month wait if you do get em zapped, but after, if you want to join, submit your application about 3 months into your waiting period. Because of our recruiting incompetance, by the time your medical comes round, you will have completed your 6 month wait. Just so people know, the medical officer in the recruiting building will give you a form to fill out that states the type of surgery you had, a few lines that the doc has to fill out that basically says there were no complications in the surgery and your eyes are healthy, and then the doc signs it saying you are good to go. You hand that in at your medical exam, and you are set. (Just pray they don't loose that when they send it out to borden)

If there are any other questions, fire em my way. I'm going through all this nonsense right now, so i have some first hand experience in the matter.

And for something interesting: on the front page of the National Post a week back, there was an article on the Canadian forces recruiting problems. Supposedly, the whole process should take about 7 weeks. wouldn't that be a dream come true.... Cheers -Cameron


----------



## combat_medic

Hansol, is that 6 months for Lasik or PRK surgery?


----------



## GINge!

jwwood said:
			
		

> For those of you looking for more specific information visit the website below. It is a statement of the visual requirments for aircrew, including pilot.
> http://www.toronto.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/medical/visreq_e.html



Thanks for that link... I failed my Aircrew medical (AirNav) due to laser eye surgery in 1999. Seems they revoked the restriction shortly after!


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## combat_medic

This seems to sum it up:

"Laser refractive surgery will continue to be medically disqualifying for either entry into or retention in the Pilot classification."


----------



## Hansol

from what i got from my both talking to the medical officer and phoning in my questions, the wait for LASIK might be as soon as three months, but don't bet the farm on that info. The RCMP and such have a waiting period of 3 months, and the army might be moving in that direction. PRK and LASIK I assume would be the same. If you are debating about which type of surgery to get, try for LASIK, as there is less of a burning sensation after the operation is performed. Cheers -Cameron


----------



## combat_medic

Hansol: I would be very surprised if the wait time was only 3 months for PRK as the healing time from that type of surgery is substantially longer than with LASIK.


----------



## Bucksnort

Enough already, the question has been answered. In short, the military only covers procedures that the civilian population are covered for under their provincial health insurance. Laser eye surgery is not! Go pay for it if you want, but be warned, if something bad happens, ie.infection, which BTW, happen about 5% of the time, you are screwed. Also, laser eye surgery weakens the cornea, so under certain conditions, where alot of pressure may occur, ie. diving, flying, as in a pilot, you could blow an eyeball, nice eh. Look, just join the infant-ry, suck it up, and carry on, you sorry sack of monkey shit! :-X


----------



## Strike

I can't believe after all this one answer has not yet been given.

You can have less than perfect vision (not sure what the exact measure is) to become a pilot IF you are transfering over from another trade.  I know more than a few people who have come over from AirNav, Mars, CELE, and such that wore glasses.

No matter what, the AF is still out on eye surgery for pilots.  There are still questions over night vision impairments.


----------



## Cliffy433

I'm gonna try to answer several points raised in this forum in one post:

1. I had LASIK in Dec 99, at the time the Temp Cat for ALL eye surgery was a minimum 6 months.  But, since I had applied for and been accepted into a posn on ROTO 7, and the CF was considering dropping the wait time for LASIK to 3 months, and every eye test I had had since the procedure was 20/15 (slightly better than perfect) in both eyes, I got my full cat back at V1 in 3 months.

2. I was -6.5 in one eye, and -6.75 in the other - couldn't read the big fricken "E" on the chart...

3. If considering surgery - DO YOUR RESEARCH!!  Stay off the 'Net!  There's a wealth of mis-info.  Visit SEVERAL clinics and remember - the words "DISCOUNT" and "LASER EYE SURGERY" do NOT belong in the same sentence - this is your vision you're messing with.  

4  According to a Time Magazine article I read in 1999, the biggest learning curves and subsequent reductions in "complications" numbers occur at 600 and 800 procedures.  My surgeon had over 3500 procedures (PRK and LASIK) before I saw him, so many, they didn't even differentiate.  His complication rate was less than the organization's AVERAGE of less than 1 in 1000.  However, it should be noted that where I had it done - they consider a complication after surgery as: "chronic dry eyes", which is so common as to not register as a complication in most places.  The average for "discount" places: 1% - or, God forbid, more - (remember, they don't always count the common things).

5.  I loved my surgery, and the clinic I went to - PM me and I'll give you the low-down on where I had it done - I don't think it's appropriate for me to do it publicly.  

A little food for thought.  As for what trades require what vision category - your recruiter can tell you that - and yes, that is the MINIMUM for getting in from the recruiting ctr - some trades make allowances if you've already got time in - but I don't know who would have that info.

tlm.


----------



## kincanucks

SilentWolf said:
			
		

> Hi, and greetings from the USA. My current and main goal is to be a soldier. I would like to join the United States Marines, however, there is a problem... My eyesight is very poor. It is -9.0 in my left eye, and -8.0 in my right. I am getting laser eye surgery within a few months, but the US military does not take anyone with eyesight worse than -8.0 points in any eye, even if you have surgery to correct it to 20/20 vision. So, I figured, if plan A doesn't work, I'd move up north, become a legal resident, and join the CF. So far it looks good, since I haven't seen anything that would prevent me from serving in Canada. I have not seen any policies regarding LASIK for enlisted members, and I don't think that they have a policy where LASIK automatically disqualifies you from entry if your vision meets acceptable standards after surgery. This is all based on educated guesses though, and I would like concrete answers. Is there anyone here that knows official CF Army policy torwards LASIK, and if there are any waivers required. It's not asked on the application if you've had LASIK (I checked), and I have not found any policies, anywhere that would bar me from entry, but again, I really want to hear answers from someone who had "been there, and done that". Recruiters won't answer me over email, or tell me where to find info, so do any of you know. Thanks alot, and the help is really appreciated...



You will have at least three years between the LASIK and applying because that is how long it will take at a minimum for you to become a Canadian citizen.

"I'd move up north, become a legal resident, and join the CF."  NOPE.


----------



## Cliffy433

> You will have at least three years between the LASIK and applying because that is how long it will take at a minimum for you to become a Canadian citizen.
> 
> "I'd move up north, become a legal resident, and join the CF."   NOPE.



Can you ref the 3yr info - there are often extenuating circumstances (direct descendant of Cdn Citizen, etc).  Plus, can someone confirm current Policy - when I joined non-residents could join with landed immigrant status, but only the PRes - they then have 3 yrs to get citizenship or get out.  Could he not come up, get landed immigrant status, put in 3 yrs in the Mo while getting his citizenship and then do a Component Transfer to the Regs.

The landed immigrant thing was still in place when I worked at CFRC Winnipeg in Spring of '02 - it was the only PRes engagement that wasn't "Indefinite" at the time.

tlm.


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## kincanucks

tlm said:
			
		

> Can you ref the 3yr info - there are often extenuating circumstances (direct descendant of Cdn Citizen, etc).   Plus, can someone confirm current Policy - when I joined non-residents could join with landed immigrant status, but only the PRes - they then have 3 yrs to get citizenship or get out.   Could he not come up, get landed immigrant status, put in 3 yrs in the Mo while getting his citizenship and then do a Component Transfer to the Regs.
> 
> The landed immigrant thing was still in place when I worked at CFRC Winnipeg in Spring of '02 - it was the only PRes engagement that wasn't "Indefinite" at the time.
> 
> tlm.



The minimum to become a Canadian citizen is three years after obtaining landed immigrant status but that can be confirmed through immigration.  However, to join the CF an applicant must be a Canadian citizen.  The website does mention the following:

_Citizens of another country who have landed immigrant (Permanent Resident) status in Canada may also be considered for enrolment when the CF has need of their skill, when the position cannot be filled by a Canadian citizen, and if the national interest would not be prejudiced. However, only under exceptional circumstances will authority be granted to enrol a citizen of another country. _

And we, in recruiting, have been told that this is never likely to happen.


----------



## HItorMiss

I will freely admit that I know squat about the RMC application process, but what I do know about is that it is possible to have your Vision status changed by retaking the eye test. Now you might say well how would I get a better score and I have the answer for that as well, the answer is laser vision correction, and now everyone here including Mr Changs might say that Laser correction is not supported by the Army and they would be right. However like Mr Chags would know is that what you don't tell them they don't know, there are currently to my knowledge 4 people on tour right now that had Laser correction done and had there V state changed without telling the army that the procedure was done.

this is of course a back door and no it is not truthful, do you want to start your career as an Officer in Her Majesty's Canadian Forces with a little lie or omission thats your call, but if you want Cbt Arms and you think it could make a difference then you might think about it.

Now Mr. C, I shall sit here and receive my dressing down for inputing my oppinion in matter above my pay grade   ;D


----------



## Chags

You know what...  Hitormiss has made a good suggestion, but the wrong way to go about it.  (Prepare for a good jacking!!)

People get the Lasiq (or whatever) surgery all the time, and even when it was in its experimental stages, guys at RMC had it done.  The Army will not pay for it, and you if there are complications, you can be released, but with the technology theses days, that is very rare.
Of course it is fairly expensive..
My suggestion, if you really want to be in the cbt arms, is hold out on the surgery for now..  get in to RMC with whatever trade they offer you..  they know you are V4 from your initial test.. that wont change.  While you're there, you have 4 years to get the surgery, and request an occupation transfer before graduating..  If  you don't want to delay any occupational training (in the summer), you should consider getting the surgery before the end of 2nd year.. (usually have 2nd language trg after 1st year, if you are not exempt)

Think about it..  no lies involved

Now hitormiss, steady up!  And you shouldnt use my name in your post.. even if its spelled wrong..  I'm not trying to hide or anything.. enough people know me as Chags anyway..  As for giving your opinion, heck, there's no problem with that..  you admitted to knowing squat!!


----------



## seoulja

Thank you all for your great suggestions and I'm actually considering all of those. However, I'm only 18 right now and to my knowledge, my body is still changing so I should wait a few more years to get a laser eye surgery. I called the medical technition to see if I could retake the test because I believe I screwed up my right eye while she tested my left eye by pressing against it too hard while covering it(my stupid mistake) but she said that I will not be able to change those results. I even sent my visual acuity which shows that my eyes are -3.50 and -3.75, which should pass for V3 I think, but that did not change anything. So, I called my career councilor and added a few more occupations to my MOC, which were logistics officer, signals officer, and EME officer. To me, these occupations don't compare to combat arms but I'll take it. So, for now I guess I'll just wait and hope for an acceptance to RMC and then change my occupation after getting the surgery done during my first few years. For now I'll just keep my fingers crossed for an acceptance. Thanks again for your suggestions!


----------



## Meridian

Uhhm.. I have a buddy at RMC in 2nd year who is MARS who is getting his LASIK Paid for my Her Majesty....  He just told me about it, was booked in november, cleared by all the channels, and is going in May or something.


----------



## AirForceWife

Thanks eliminator ,   however we still havent gotten ours,  and neither has my husbands friends that graduated.  Everyones convinced they forgot since its been this long. Anyone else here graduate last year and get theirs?


----------



## Strike

seoulja,

If you're worried about your vision status, get a second opinion with a civvie optometrist.  This will be on your own buck, but they can't refute official docs from another official source (doctor).  When I applied to RMC as a pilot they told me I had epilepsy (from my EEG).  The only recourse they offered was sending the graph to Ottawa to be reread.  Knowing buddy in Ottawa would probably say the same thing, I got another EEG at the local hospital.  No probs, they accepted it.

Meridian,

Haven't seen the CANFORGEN on the Lasik yet.  Any references?  This sit. has been discussed at length by my unit.


----------



## kincanucks

_Meridian,

Haven't seen the CANFORGEN on the Lasik yet.  Any references?  This sit. has been discussed at length by my unit._

Because it is BS.


----------



## AirForceWife

kincanucks said:
			
		

> _Meridian,
> 
> Haven't seen the CANFORGEN on the Lasik yet.   Any references?   This sit. has been discussed at length by my unit._
> 
> Because it is BS.




That it is. My husband inquired about it, and RMC said it is not covered due to what can happen if your on a flight, and pressure changes


----------



## Meridian

He is MARS, not going for Pilot. 

And KinCanucks.. It isnt BS..  He may have had his chain pulled, but he isnt the type of guy to make s#it up and besides there is no real reason to make it up. I told him I was suprised they were covering it, he said he managed to convince someone with a red cross that it was a good idea he do it.

Apparently his only apprehension is possibly missing phase training.


----------



## Strike

AirForceWife said:
			
		

> That it is. My husband inquired about it, and RMC said it is not covered due to what can happen if your on a flight, and pressure changes





			
				Meridian said:
			
		

> He is MARS, not going for Pilot.



So you're saying he will NEVER fly in ANY TYPE of aircraft?  Does he intend to sail everywhere?  Or take the train when he has to go out to Esquimalt or Halifax for Phase training?  I doubt it.

I have done a recent search through the CANFORGENs and have not found anything.  

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21676.0.html

Suggest you check out the above link.


----------



## Meridian

Strike = Look. Like I said, maybe the military docs were yanking his chain. But he seemed pretty convinced that he was getting it done, and that the military was paying.

No need to be so hostile towards me, I already clearly stated that its possible he was being yanked around.


----------



## Strike

I just don't want your buddy getting fleeced.  I don't have the link on hand, but you can get to the DWAN medical site and they do have a list of things that are covered and that are not.

BTW, have a friend that was told he was V3 when he was recruited, and then they later said there was an error and he was V4 and therefore was going to be released ('cause he couldn't be V4 in his trade).  He did end up winning that battle.


----------



## Meridian

Pure curiosity, what was the end result... transfer of trade, or vision correction or a review of the V4?


----------



## Strike

He was able to remain in his trade with his vision at V4.


----------



## Themos

Wow, this topic is really interesting.  

As a current RMC cadet I would just like to make a few points that may or may not have been touched on (i dont have time to read 14 pages of posts)

When I first learned of the existance of RMC I was intrigued to say the least. I have always had a fascination with the military.  One of the things that was really built up in my head from recruiters and also the RMC webpage was the professionalism of the institution and its cadets.  This is also the main thing that shocked me when arriving for IAP in St-Jean and then again, but harder the second time, after the completion of FYOP at the college.  I was definately shocked how some people managed to make it to basic in the first place (and also shocked when they passed). The entrance criteria is based on two scales, academic and military potential. I am not ashamed to say that I am one of those who floated in easily on a high academic potential with only an average to upper-average leadership potential. I have now that a lot of my prespectives on everything have changed.  I am (if others here are not) greatful for the experiences afforded to me hear to improve my leadership skills.

Anyway, back to my point, I found that once the viel of the isolation of the First Year Orientation Period was lifted that the level of maturity and professionalism in the college was much lower than I had come to expect.  This has been reinforced numerous times over the past year, including this morning with a can of water leaning against another cadet's door.  The disciplinary actions at the college are inadequate for helping the cadets develop a high standard of self discipline, albeit that the system is currently undergoing review and change.  It is still shocking to see the actions of 4th year cadets who are now just a litte over 6 months of phase training away from being placed in their units. I do hope they grow up very quickly.

As for the cocky attitude of "ring knockers" i can say nothing as my experience is still limited. It does not seem like something that is unlikely to some graduates, although I do know many people here at the college that do take a much more professional approach to things as I do.  To say this is a quality of RMC cadets only seems extreme to me however. While I have personally witnessed a lot of unimpressive behaviour from RMC cadets, they are only acting as anyone their (and my) age would.  This type of behaviour is common to most of the current young generation and was something that i had hoped to get away from by going to the college.

 on a lighter note, there was a comment on Queen's girls not being impressed by RMC guys. I can say that i know a lot of guys with Queen's girls, and the girls still like the uniforms (heh, the first year Queen's girls don't know any better yet). I cannot speak from personal experience however, as I am one of the few with a girlfriend at the college (we met during IAP). For anyone looking at attending RMC, it is very hard to leave family and friends behind and I would suggest that if you do end up at the College try to find one or two close friends you feel comfortable sharing your thoughts and feelings with. The support will go a long way to helping you deal with the stresses faced on a day to day basis.  It is a huge life change and a huge sacrifice to join the Forces, but I do feel that it is worth it.

I noticed a comment earlier about having trouble to get people to go to RMC. All I can say to that is that approx. 250 cadets were accepted this year from over 1500+? applications (i have heard various numbers, this being a more conservative one, but all quite large relative to the number selected).  Although, we did have one fellow cry and quit the second day of IAP when he was the first CPC (cadet platoon commander) and got yelled at and fired by the Sgt.. I believe the first 5 got fired, which was very planned out, as most of the things in IAP are, to create worry and stress.

As for comments on officers being strictly commisioned from the ranks, I believe that to be something both impossible and unnecessary, especially for trades outside of the combat arms or outside of the Army.  IAP is designed to give us a taste of what it means to follow.  A common phare was "you must learn to follow in order to lead". Although some people had a difficult time with the concept of followership and coursemanship, and in the process often bladed fellow coursemates. It might be desireable to give officers more of a taste of what it is like to be commanded, however there are also good leaders here that don't require that experience and I am sure they will make good officers (although they are in the majority).  My complaint is with the overall maturity level at the college, but what can you expect with examples being set like a recent incident with a squad com getting really drunk at the Christmas Ball and doing a lot of things best left unmentioned here. There are differences in how we are treated from private recruits though (they make more money for one,  ). Right from the start we are guided and expected to figure things out on our own as apposed to being told how and when to do everything. It was a favorite game of our PO1, Sgt and MCpls to change information on us or not provide enough of it to see if we could coordinate or think of and ask the proper questions.

As for the RETP program at the college, it is a very difficult life.  The service commitment, or rather lack thereof, is nice for some people. However, with the mounting costs (although low tuition compared to many universities) and inablility to work part time (at least in first year) it can be difficult financially.  What they dont tell you ahead of time is that to get the reserve education money (some thing like $762 for the year this year) in your final year you must be a member of a reserve unit and you cannot apply for it until september to ensure that you have a commitment to the forces.  I would also like to clarify that the service commitment for ROTP is now 5 years not 4, and I believe that it is 7 for aircrew.

RMC has shifted towards a high focus on marks and academics. The mil wing however has become a part of the weekly school schedule. Wednesday mornings (as apposed to the former system of every other weekend) are dedicated to Professional Miliary Training, which encompasses a wide variety of things from leadership to drill (in fall and spring).  There is also a military psychology course built into the core curriculum, 1 semester for Sci/Eng and 2 for Arts students. While this may seem like very little, it is a lot more military exposure than ROTPs at civi U's are getting. RMC provides a great opportunity, combined with summer phase training, to develop your leadership skills as well as academics (esp. with the small classes, much unlike other Us), but you have to want to develop yourself. A common problem is that rather than developing useful things cadets become very good at cutting corners without being caught. And as my squadron Sgt says, "You cut corners and infantry die!" 
Perhaps it is the need for junior officers that prohibits more thorough screening of cadets to tell those who are just here for a free ride from those who are serious.

That is basically what I have come to learn about the college in the past year. It is not necessarily the college (and its policies) tself but some of the people here that create problems. I believe that RMC still produces more capable Jr Officers than instituitions like Westpoint who have a very different approach than RMC (which places emphasis on self discipline). I do feel that there are changes that will develop over next few years, hopefully for the better for the college and the CF. It is also possible that stereotypes have developed against RMC "ring knockers" because more is expected of them simply because they come from RMC. Anyone who feels they are a superior officer for having attended RMC and flaunts the fact is not a good officer. There are however many good RMC officers too. I see a lot of speculation in a some posts. Trust me when I say you dont know what its like until you get here, and dont be surprised if its not what the recruiter said.

All of that being said, I am proud to say that I attend RMC (albeit less proud at some moments) because it is an excellent educational institution and I hope that after I graduate that my experiences here at the college will have at least helped to give me an idea of the concept of leadership.  Personal developement is really up to us as individuals, and it is too bad that some people don't take that as seriously as they should, but don't automatically assume that all RMC graduates are useless.  

- An Ossifer Kididiot


----------



## Meridian

Excellent read! 

You've got my vote for CWC 

---

I only completed the ROTP Junior program "Prep Year", so again, my RMC experience is limited. I do speak every so often with a friend who is a 2nd year right now at the college as previously mentioned.  I did note however during IAP and during my initial prep year that the quality of cadets in general was pathetic in my opinion, but that it did meet with the stereotypical generalizations we can make about today's youth.

Many of the cadets who were selected for the program in prep year were either behind academically marks-wise, were from the province of Quebec and thus required a cegep qualifying year for entrance to an Ontario university or were from another province where math or other courses were determined to be lackluster for admittance to RMC.  All this to say that the military has even adapted to make room for those who may not be academically advanced initially, but who have supposedly proven themselves otherwise.

Recalling my application, much of what I had to show was leadership and military potential.  (You are gauged on Academics, Military AND leadership, if I recall correctly, not just Academics and military, Kincanucks and others can correct me here if IM wrong).

The way I (and I subsequently found out others) "proved" this was by demonstrating that we were things like "School President, Captain of this team, chair of this high school committee" etc.  The issue here is that it can be especially daunting to review a 17 (sometimes 16) year old. While there are older applicants (and in my experience it is these who generally find the maturity level at the college/IAP/BOTP appalling, not suprisingly) the majority of candidates have just graduated high school and have never been away from home.

How do you assess leadership potential? Is it based off of the most popular person in school? The problem I noticed was that the program basically pulled in the "snobby" popular kids from schools across Canada... you then have a bunch of kids who are used to be the go-to guy... the most important person... all together.. Then you throw in the "top" cadets from the Cadet movement, and you get the same sort of thing, but now with people who "know military stuff".

I think the biggest issue in general with todays youth is the ever-building individualist movement. Everything is about me me me, making my dreams cometrue, doing whatever my heart contents... coupled with the irreverance of the Canadian population towards the military profession in general (when I joined, and when I was in, I heard ALL THE TIME "Why did you join the military!?  Why would you go to a military school voluntarily!?") . The pomp and pageantry, the perhaps old-school "gentlemanliness" that was associated with being an officer and a cadet at RMC is no longer really evident. 

Note that I do not pretend to believe that there was never any shenaningans in the past - far from it. But the biggest thing I noted (even within myself) is that I found I had to sell why I was going to RMC to everyone. My family, friends, people I met at the bar... I constantly felt the need (And saw all my colleagues doing it as well) to show the positives 'Free education, getting my wings for free, etc etc".  Basically highlighting all the WRONG reasons for joining, but the same reasons the military and CFRG's push so heavily to market to youth.

All said and told, you get people who really are wearing blue just because its a cheap way to get a pilot's license. They never wanted to lead soldiers - they are wearing blue afteralll; they dont really want to fight wars; they just cant afford pilot training and love to fly.  Same thing on the navy side - I just want to "sail the ocean" and "I love big ships" was actually a common reason.   an Ethics class demonstrated to myself and friends that many of our colleagues had never even considered real-war, real-life, life-or-death situations and what they would do if they were in them...   they were just here for the free ride....


----------



## AznVengence

Are there any requirements besides the basic knowledge and things like that. to get into RMC? What do you do there? Anything Specific? Can anyone tell me?


----------



## Paish

Meridian said:
			
		

> Note that I do not pretend to believe that there was never any shenaningans in the past - far from it. But the biggest thing I noted (even within myself) is that I found I had to sell why I was going to RMC to everyone. My family, friends, people I met at the bar... I constantly felt the need (And saw all my colleagues doing it as well) to show the positives 'Free education, getting my wings for free, etc etc".   Basically highlighting all the WRONG reasons for joining, but the same reasons the military and CFRG's push so heavily to market to youth.
> 
> All said and told, you get people who really are wearing blue just because its a cheap way to get a pilot's license. They never wanted to lead soldiers - they are wearing blue afteralll; they dont really want to fight wars; they just cant afford pilot training and love to fly.   Same thing on the navy side - I just want to "sail the ocean" and "I love big ships" was actually a common reason.     an Ethics class demonstrated to myself and friends that many of our colleagues had never even considered real-war, real-life, life-or-death situations and what they would do if they were in them...     they were just here for the free ride....




Here here! I myself am applying for rmc and my reasons for applying are not the free education(hence why i said i would take retp) but to serve my country and lead people and not to just skim along for the free ride. I just have to say that if i am not accepted, i just hope the people who are, are there for the right reasons of serving their country and not just for free education and ending up having to justify why they are there.


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## Themos

As for saying that you would take RETP, it is unlikely that they will offer you RETP if you do not want it, as far as most of the RETPs this year go. I know some who asked for RETP and were offered ROTP on the other hand.

Excellent point Meridian, and something that I have both realized and i believe forgot to mention in my earlier post is the fact that most of the people here are still so young. I have also noticed those that started off saying that they would quit before second year (so they get a free first year, and before we have financial obligations if we VR) have now changed their minds. It takes time to adapt I guess. It really is quite a system shock and huge change/adjustment coming out of highschool. Imagine how great I was feeling getting yelled at by a french-canadian MCpl when I should have been at my grad/prom or out drinking on my 18th birthday


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## Paish

Themos said:
			
		

> As for saying that you would take RETP, it is unlikely that they will offer you RETP if you do not want it, as far as most of the RETPs this year go. I know some who asked for RETP and were offered ROTP on the other hand.



Yeah i dint say i was expecting it, just showing that free education was not my motive to apply


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## Seal

I'm in the process of applying to join the Canadian Forces.     Currenly, I'm getting all my documentations ready.   As you might already have guess, I wear glasses, I am nearsighted.   I'm just wondering if its a good idea to get my eyes fix with respect to the Canadian Forces' policy.   For example, if I do go through with the Lasik treatment, will I be rejected at the medical examination stage?   Are there any medical examiner, doctor, or recuiter can answer this question?   Thanks in advance.

Seal


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## alan_li_13

This might have been gone over before, but i'm wondering: How do fellow cadets see cadets who use to be in the Army, Air, or Sea Cadets? How many are there? How well do they do, if at all? Does Cadets help? If so, how much? If not, why not?


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## s23256

For the most part at RMC it's a non-issue.  No one really cares if someone was in cadets or not.  On BOTC some people, one individual in particular, let it be known that having been cadets they were superior in some way.  Unfortunately they did not realize that the fact that you were a cadet chief warrant means jack all in the real forces.  The most vocal individual was eventually released when it turned out he was entirely useless.  Cadet experiences may be helpful in some ways, I wouldn't know as I was never one, and as long as you use them constructively no one will have a problem with it.  In the end I don't think there is any real difference between those who were in cadets or not and as long as no one actively makes an issue out of it, it won't become one.


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## Big Foot

I second what Spinaker said. I have seen my fair share of former cadets get torn apart by directing staff for being smartasses. On one occasion, i have even seen a former cadet try to correct a MCpl, only to be jacked up like I have not seen since. That said, if you don't let it go to your head at all, it gives you a good grounding and will enable you to help others out. Just remember though, even if you are a former cadet, it means nothing in the real world and don't try to say it does. Once you get to basic, you should know only one thing, and that one thing is that you know nothing. They will teach you everything you need to know.


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## Strike

When I did BOTC (in Chilliwack) there were two of us in the female MOD who had cadet experience.  It was actuallt very useful when it came time to get ready for inspections.  One of us would pollish boots, the other would do the ironing, and we would both of us would make the beds while the rest of the MOD would do the rest of the kit.  It was a very good arrangement -- have people do what they are strong at.  This is probably the only way that it helped.


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## Cpl.Banks

Cadets is very good movement, it allows for youth to participate in semi military activites and gives them a small yet lasting impression on the armed forces on th whole. RMC does prefer having an applicant that has some experience in the Cadets or Resv becasue they know that you know what is expected and you have be trained for years in some cases to learn obey and adapt. I am very proud to be a Cadet and I can quite frankley say I joined Cadets becasue I intend on Going to RMC and serving my country, since I am a minor I will do what the law permits me to do. Woudl you A) take some know it all "geek" from school who has no actual military exp other than Halo who is looking for a free ride and is out after 5 years of mandatory service or B) An intelligent but not brilliant guy who has some experience in the ways of the army, who is ready to serve his country and is fit to participate in the CF!   thats what I though!!!!!
UBIQUE!!!!


----------



## Ironside

This thread intrigues me, and, being a student at the RMC, I would like to post several concerns:

"Ring knockers" :
By and large a myth - at least from what I have viewed in my four years here.  Since I joind the College in 2001, Cadets in higher years than myself who are truly dedicated to the CF have constantly warned me of the "ring knocker" ideology, and to avoid playing into it.  From what I have viewed here at the College throughout my second, third, and fourth year, I have seen no evidence that points towards Officer Cadets playing into this idea.  I cannot speak for officers who have continued on to their regiments, but when military personnel I meet find out I am from RMC (i.e. when on leave/in town, etc.),, they automatically joke about me being a "ring knocker", thus supporting my statement that this is a myth, since I am most definately not.  This idea has lived in the CF for a long time, and is passed onwards constantly to new members as far as I have seen as an insult.

Arrogant Cadets:
I would like to attack this point from a different angle that has yet to be covered.  First of all, as previously stated, you will run into people like this all over the place regardless of where you end up, whether these people come from RMC or not.  Tying in to the "ring knocker" theory, many Cadets at the College are dedicated to constantly pursuing higher professionalism, as the majority of us desire to become more proficient in our future careers.  In doing this, we place a strong onus on the officer-NCO relationship.
I will not lie and say that all Cadets here are dedicated to future CF careers.  There are those who are here simply for a degree or were recruited for varsity level sports.  This is unfortunate, but there are also recruits who join the CF for the wrong reasons as well and must also be dealt with.

Officer-NCO Relationship:
As previously given, many of us going fresh to regiment have a lot to learn upon arrival.  We must learn our job as well as establish good relationships with our subordinates and superiors.  Overall, NCOs can not blame officers just as officers cannot blame NCOs - it is each individual's responsibilty to work hard towards establishing good working ties.  And, if an officer is definitely unfit for command (another fear that floats around), it is most likely that he/she will be replaced, just as an NCO will be if he/she is lax in their duties.

Future Military Candidates (ROTP, RETP, CIVY U, etc.):
If you are accepted to RMC or civilian university, I strongly recommend that you take the offer if you wish to become an officer.  It is possible to become an officer through DEO (direct entry officer - having a degree already is a prerequisite), or as a UTPNCM (University Training Plan NCM [commissioning from the ranks]).  However, there are some problems concerning these choices.
DEO - After two years of waiting, my brother has finally been accepted as a pilot through the DEO program.  I know of several others who have been put on the waiting list for this long or longer, without receiving a message.  This may not be the case for all people applying, but I believe there are fewer slots for this option, decreasing the chances of getting it.  Many people try to take this route as well, so do not become confident that you will get it right away.
UTPNCM - I have talked to several UTs whom I have gotten to know over the years, and they have told me that it is a tough selection to make, as there are few slots available.  Any UTs who find this to be incorrect, please post a correction as I am most definately not as informed to the process as you are.  In addition, you will not even be eligible until a certain amount of time.
Overall, DEO and UTPNCM are both viable options.  However, if being an officer is what you are really interested in and you are given the offer, I recommend you take it.  Just because you are accepted now does not mean that you will be in the future.
I also agree with the statements that officers should come from the ranks, as these people are more aware going into their units as to how things are run.  However, this is not the case, and many good officers have come and gone without prior military experience.

Discipline at RMC:
To all those who have already, knock it if you want.  However, I warn those people who do (especially first/second years), please do not become hypocrites.  Before the College's problems are posted nation-wide, think to yourselves when the last time was that you picked up a piece of random garbage, told someone to wear their wedge properly, or inform someone they are not wearing appropriate dress for the mess?  Just because you are first and second years does not give you the ability to turn your head away and pretend you did not see anything.  This point also applies to all Cadets in general.  It is just as much your responsibility to help ensure CADWINS are followed as it is a generic fourth year slasher.  And I can guarantee that most of these people who complain about discipline and the actions of others have done nothing else to try and rectify the problem.  For example, I have seen more heads turn away from improperly dressed Cadets than I have seen attempts to correct them.  Corrections do not necessarily have to be jackings, they can be friendly gestures to keep people out of trouble.
All units have their own sets of problems to work out - but it is the actions each individual takes in upholding the rules, not complaining online, that solve the problems.

In conclusion, I want to make it clear I am in no way attacking any person who has posted on this forum.  The above listed are my concerns alone, which I feel should be addressed concerning the "politics" of the Royal Military College of Canada.
I wear my ring, I do not knock it; I am enthusiastic about the career I will be launching myself into in several months; I hope I have good NCOs working under me when I go to regiment, just as I hope to serve them well and earn their respect; and, I am proud to come from this place.  Everyone has pride from the things they have done in the past, and I do not believe RMC should have to be excluded simply because there are bad impressions of the place, many spurring from people who have never been there, but have simply heard rumours.
I am still very new to the CF and do not have the experience that many people who post here do, but these are my views to date.

Cheers.


----------



## somegei

Out of curiosity, if I had laser eye surgery, and applied to the air force with the hopes of being a pilot, how would they ever know if I had laser eye surgery?


----------



## Island Ryhno

They would ask you, "did you ever have laser eye surgery?" to which you would respond "why yes I have." It's called honesty and it should be number on your list of virtues for being an officer in the Canadian Armed Forces.


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## x-grunt

Hi all,
I am seeking help from those here who have had Lasik or similar eye surgery.

Due to the new vision standards, I am now on the edge of V3 and V4. It's possible I will not qualify for my chosen occupation at my medical.

So, I am considering laser eye surgery in case I end up V4. I am researching this as fully as possible. I have read all the posts here, and I am aware of the implications for CF service.

There's lots of marketing stuff on the 'net, and testimonials are nice but biased towards the positive. Not much unbiased, real life info in my research so far. So I'm looking for experiences and info from those of you who have had laser eye surgery.  What was it like for you â â€œ really? Were there complications, how long did it take to stabilize your vision, did you get decent results, how has it impacted you at work and play, etc.

I know some may not want to go public with their experiences, please PM me if you wish. I will not post any info given via PM.

If you are in the Toronto area, any info concerning your doctor would be appreciated, too.

Many thanks.


----------



## MP 811

Oh i got the goods my friend, I did it about 10 years ago.  The actual surgery is pretty painless.  They used eye drops that numbed my eyes.  The laser itself is kinda cool.  I saw it as a small blue dot in my eye making a clicking sound.  I actually felt the laser as being cool, temperature wise.  My whole procedure took about 10 minutes.  It's the week after that I didnt enjoy.  As the eyes heal, you have to wear a protective contact lense that covers the eye until the healing process occurs, you can see through this contact as it's clear but, any light exposure to your eye feels like knives digging into them!  I was pretty much only active at night with no light for the first little while.

Now, I was 20/200 in my left eye and 20/300 in my right.  I am now 20/20 individually with 20/15 combined vision.  Would I recommend it..............you bet ya!  A week is nothing for the lifetime of freedom from glasses.


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## ImanIdiot

This is kind of a dumb question guys, but how much does this usually cost?I'm sure it can probably vary quite a bit... I hear ads on the radio for $500 off eye surgery, but using coupons for a medical procedure seems...unsettling. 

I would love to experience an exercise without the annoyance of glasses or contacts.


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## -rb

I have never had the surgery myself but me and the family got it for my dad as a birthday present last year. Although I have no specifics as to vision standards before and after the surgery, his results were in his words 'Amazing'. From wearing glasses as a necessity for 55+ years to having daytime 20/20 it was a pretty remarkable thing.

The surgery was quick, painless and he had no major complications whatsoever. He did have some blurry spots in his vision for the first few days but they slowly disappeared over the course of a few weeks.

I would however arrange a consultation at the clinic of your choosing as soon as possible though...due to the thickness of some people's cornea it may not be possible to 're-shape' it as required.

Do your due diligence and research but as far as the old man recommending it, I know for sure he'd echo MP 811's comments as well.

cheers.


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## ExistancE

I feel your pain... I'm right on the edge now with the new standards.

Corrected I have 6/6 (20/20) and 6/60 in my right 6/90 in my left uncorrected. Fortunately I'll get into the army, unfortunately it may not be the infantry. I've been trying to find out a little more about a newer procedure that involves wearing contact lenses at night that re-shape the eye to improve vision. Not too much info on it so far. Best of luck, I'm looking at getting lasered asap.


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## darlingdon76

Hi,

It'll be a month tommorrow that I had my eyes corrected with laser surgery.  (TLC Halifax)

Lasik as it's called, is a pretty simple and quick procedure.  The thing that probably bothered me the most was all the testing.  It seemed they did the same tests, measuring of the eye, etc.. about 3 times.  (Remember though, it's your eyes, and it's pretty much a one shot deal.)

I found shortly after the procedure there is a strong burning sensation in your eyes, especially if it's a sunny day on your way home from the clinic.  Even with the dark glasses they give you, it burns, really burns when the local anesthetic wears off, which is about an hour after.

My best advise is right after surgery is go home and sleep.  I was so wired up after, I was pacing the floors!!!  After a little while I did take about a 4 hour nap and it did wonders.  

Your vision will come and go for the first couple of weeks really.  Alot of the blurry vision I blame on the antibiotic and antiswelling drops they give you.  This stuff is pretty thick and milky, one bottle of drops you actually have to shake, so that tells you it's thick.  You're only on this stuff for 4 days.  Some days are crystal clear, others a little blurry.  Don't panic, it's just your eyes healing.  Right now, everything is perfect, 20/20 all the way.  Some mornings my eyes seem a little tired, but that's just the dryness, no big deal.

I would recommend to anyone to get this done.  I'll repeat what I've heard from everyone else who had it done....  "I WISH I HAD DONE THIS YEARS AGO!!!"  Worth every penny.

I was a -7.5 in both eyes, very poor vision, I've come a long way.  The price?  $4300.00.  I had conventional Lasik, custom would have been about $1000.00 more.  I wanted the custom but I wouldn't of had enough flesh on my eye in case I needed a touch up after.  Both are equally effective, same results, the custom uses more computer tech. for the measuring and testing aspect from what I understand.

The best of luck, you won't regret it....

Regards,

Don


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## HollywoodHitman

I had mine done in 1999. Best money I have EVER spent. No problems at all!!!

Give 'er!

TM


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## Sf2

i would also look into the military's position on laser eye surgery.

An exerpt from a CANFORGEN:

LASER EYE SURGERY 

	Laser eye surgery for the correction of refractive error (usually near-sightedness) is becoming more popular among military personnel.  The procedure is heavily promoted by private clinics in most provinces.  HAVING THIS PROCEDURE DONE CAN HAVE SIGNIFICANT ADMINISTRATIVE AND CAREER CONSEQUENCES FOR MILITARY PERSONNEL.  No military member should undergo this procedure without first obtaining the consent of the CO pertaining to the period of temporary category and operational restrictions.   Once this consent is obtained the member will meet with the MO to be placed on temporary category.

	It is important for military members to be aware of the following points:

1.  	The procedure is not funded by DND.  This includes doctor's fees, facility fees, medications, travel, and accommodations.   No sick leave or excused duty is granted by the CF Medical Services. 
2.	Personnel who have had the procedure are placed on a temporary 6-month  medical restriction.  This precludes deployments and prohibits the driving of military vehicles.   
3.	There are more significant repercussions for personnel attempting to be fit for flying or diving occupations.  The procedure produces changes that are evident on eye examination.
Following the period of temporary medical restrictions there is no guarantee that members will be fit for return to unrestricted duty.  Complications that arise could result in the member's release from the CF.
5. 	Aircrew members must be grounded for 6 months.  Pilots or pilot applicants are unfit pilot after refractive surgery.


----------



## mover1

Lasik is awesome. I reccomend it to anyone who is thinking of it. I have had mine for a year now. I went from a V-4 to a V-1.
 It's not really painless. Just a bit uncomfortable. The whole process took roughly 20 minutes and I took the reccomended 3 hour nap afterwards because it felt like I had sand in my eye. The drive from Winnipeg to Shilo was astounding. I could read the signs see the cows and everything else. One of the things they don't tell you about that is awesome.  SEX..... its awesome when you can see.

http://www.grmc.ca/

This is the site that I went to to get my information.
I reccomend it to anyone who is thinking of it. Remember if your current eye doctor tells you the scary stories he is just trying to keep a customer.


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## x-grunt

I really appreciate the info you folks are sharing. Keep it coming!

For those of you who are investigating this procedure, here's a link to a site with a lot of good information, including advice on screening your doctor:

http://www.usaeyes.org

The referral service is strictly US, but the rest of the info is useful to Canadians.


----------



## Old Ranger

Had Lasik April,1999.  About $1500.
Went from 20/60 to 20/20 in a Blink.
Yes the Tests are Lengthly, and being told over and over some of the possible side affects suck.
But waking up in the morning looking for your glasses to see the clock, then looking at the clock and actually SEEING it!
Wearing Dark sunglasses at the Beach...so your wandering eyes aren't seen.

Water puts out Fire, Right.  Get extra Eye Drops to Flush your eyes after, and for the next few days.  It will cool the burning sensation.

Wish I had it done sooner, cause now the old age requires reading glasses.. :'(

Good luck!


----------



## Pfc_Norup

Had it done in the summer of 2000 before I joined the Danish Army...  Best money I've ever spend!


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## CBH99

This might seem like a pretty stupid question, but - can you get laser surgery on your eyes more than once?

I have a feeling the reason I'm short sighted is because I spend so much time on this damn computer, a necessary evil in my line of work.  My vision isn't horrible, but I definitely need to wear glasses in order to see presentations and to drive.  I don't know what the exact strength of my vision is.  Can laser surgery be done more than once, incase I get near sighted again down the road?


----------



## sguido

To make an informed decision, you should have all the options...here's another.

RK, Radial Keratotomy.  Sometimes also known as PRK.

No laser is used; a diamond blade scalpel is used to make radial incisions in the cornea, flattening it permanently to correct myopia.  It can also be done multiple times per eye to correct vision, if required, and variants exist for astigmatism.  Recommended for up to -12.00 vision.

It's been used for over 35 years; I had mine done in 1989, and still have 20/20 in both eyes with no problems.  Surgery was pain free...it's more of a mind game, thinking, "This guy's got a knife in my eye!"  Post-op care was eye drops for a couple of months; no discomfort, other than a sensation similar to being in a smoke-filled club all night long...and a couple of drops of 'Refresh' solved that problem immediately.

You'll probably hear that it's an 'obsolete' procedure...but it's your vision you're talking about.  Wouldn't you rather have a procedure where you know the long term effects?

Here's something to research about, and ask the LASIK doctors:  ask about interface debris; dislodged flap; wrinkling; lipid deposits; decentration of .5 mm or more; corneal haze; anterior chamber perforation and kerato conus; free cap; displaced flap; striations; corneal flap melt; and corneal abcess.  Here's a hint; good doctors will inform you about *all* risks, including these ones...red flag any doctor that dismisses the above as "insignificant" and only talks about the pros, not the cons.

Toronto area recommendation: 
Dr. Karas, 10014 Yonge Street (Richmond Hill, Yonge/Major Mac), 
905-884-2020


----------



## sguido

ExistancE said:
			
		

> *snip*
> I've been trying to find out a little more about a newer procedure that involves wearing contact lenses at night that re-shape the eye to improve vision. Not too much info on it so far. Best of luck, I'm looking at getting lasered asap.



It's not new...it's known as Ortho Keratotomy Keratology, and has been around since the early 1980's.   The leading Toronto MD was Ned Paige, but he passed on some years ago.   Gas permeable contacts are used to 'mold' the cornea into taking the correct shape for 20/20 vision.

To be brutally honest, it's a waste of time & hope.   Your eyes are resilient, and bounce back...sometimes even from surgery.   A temporary molding, which the contacts do, *never* takes permanence.   Sure, you're good in the morning after a night of wearing them...but a few hours after they're out, your vision returns.   There *might* be a diopter or two of improvement long term...but stop using the lenses for even a week, and you're back to square one.

There's a trick old pilots use...they rub their eyes *really* hard before their eye exam.   This temporarily flattens the cornea, allowing them to pass with perfect vision.   A few hours later, the eye 'bounces' back to its regular state.

It doesn't hold up to scrutiny, however...corneas can be mapped quite easily these days...

(Edited for mistaking -totomy for -tology...common thing when sleep deprived, no?  However, the facts *are* correct!)


----------



## Pfc_Norup

> ...can you get laser surgery on your eyes more than once?



Yes! My mother had her right eye "redone" because it wasn't "sharp" enough. In this case it was free. I don't know how rules are in Canada?


----------



## silentbutdeadly

i kinda really hate the fact that the military doesn't pay for it! I guess all the money was spent on sex change operations.!


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## mover1

The U.S. Military does already. It feels that solders in combat with glasses pose a handicap. There is a 9 month waiting list to get it done. It isn't expensive to do because they own the machines and are not doing it for profit. 

The Can Military will follow suit. But in its own time. I kept my receipts. Waiting for that day.


Good news after I had it done. WOW what a tax break.


----------



## Taylor187

I got a quote done for Lasik and its at $5600. Pretty nasty but worth it in the long run in my opinion. I am booked for next June. I've had a few family members get it done and they are 40 years old are more, most of the damage was old age but its all fixed and they are still 20/20. As far as I have been told if your eye naturally changes or some thing "natural" has happened to change your vision I believe a touch up is free. But if you got hit so hard playing hockey your eye popped out, and after it was reinserted your vision was off, that will cost you. (My optomotrist actually had that done except his eye is unfixable.)

I am nervous as hell.


----------



## Taylor187

Double post, sorry.


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## mover1

You should be nervous. holy cow. its so hard not to blink or move your eye. If you do you will cause a scratch and it can't be fixed. if you rub your eyes too hards afterwards you'll rip it open and there is no cure. ;D

Relax though I was just kidding I had the jitters too. but the payoff. WOW. The wors part of it all is handing all that cash over. the best part. SEEING


----------



## Old Ranger

CBH99 said:
			
		

> This might seem like a pretty stupid question, but - can you get laser surgery on your eyes more than once?



That depends on your particular eye problem.  There are many different types of surgery and options.
Get second and third or more oppions.  Read all the info you can.  Types and reasoning for surgeries are constantly changing.

One that sounds promising are semi-permenant contacts placed under the outer skin of the eye. These can be changed at a later date.


----------



## mover1

Both INTACS and Lasik are good vision correction techniques in well selected patients. There are pros and cons with each technique. INTACS are only indicated in low myopes with minimal astigmatism, while Lasik has a wider range of correction possible. INTACS are placed in the periphery of the cornea, sparing the central part of the cornea, or visual axis, while Lasik involves the central sculpting of corneal tissue. INTACS are involved with no tissue removal, while Lasik is.

Postoperative discomfort is rare with Lasik, and more frequent with INTACS. Nevertheless, discomfort after INTACS lasts for 24-36 hrs.

There is mild postoperative visual fluctuation with both techniques, yet this settles by 4-6 weeks after surgery.

INTACS are reversible, Lasik is not.  Early evidence suggests that INTACS patients may have crisper vision than Lasik patients in the long term.

Both techniques can be associated with glare and halos for a period of 4-6 weeks after surgery. INTACS patients need to be well examined for pupil size, as large pupils are more frequently associated with persistent glare and halos.

http://www.grmc.ca/


----------



## dearryan

I had mine done 2 months ago in Vancouver.

Cost: 2300.00  (Tissue sparing technique) PRK Very commonly used 
Previous Vision: -8.25 (both)
Current Vision 20/20  (V1 CF equivalent)
Wait time required by CF before proceeding with application: 3months


Slight irritation (varies) for a week afterwards. The only thing that was not appealing about the whole thing was that eye reshaping smelled like burning hair! 

Get er done! You wont regret it!


----------



## mover1

Walked in. did it. 6 months later went to the MO told him I had Lazer Eye Surgery. Handed him a copy of the documents. 

The only person who was upset was the MEd Records Clerk who had a hissy fit. THe OC was more interested in the video of my procedure. There was no six month med catogory and there was no hassle. 

Mind you if your bosses are really strict then do as per orders and get permission.


----------



## x-grunt

dearryan said:
			
		

> I had mine done 2 months ago in Vancouver.
> 
> Cost: 2300.00  (Tissue sparing technique) PRK Very commonly used
> Previous Vision: -8.25 (both)
> Current Vision 20/20  (V1 CF equivalent)
> Wait time required by CF before proceeding with application: 3months



Thanks for the info!

I was told about a month or 6 weeks ago by CFRC Toronto it's a minimum 6 months wait after Lasik, 12 months wait after PRK. How'd you get the 3 months? That would be nice.


----------



## x-grunt

Thanks for the posts. It's tough to get good feedback on other sites.

Today I went to my first consultation. (I have booked consutls at several facilities.) The technician looked over my eyes, then a sales type takes over with the pitch. Thing is, I have developed a list of hard hitting questions - and it flustered her completely. She looked like a trapped animal every time I asked one, eyes darting around the room. Not inspiring. Actually it was kind of funny, but I feel no pity for someone selling a _surgical procedure_ to be so uninformed.

To her credit, she booked me a "special" consult directly with the surgeon to answer my tough questions. I hope that goes better.

So, off to the next consult.


----------



## Old Ranger

X-Grunt, have you checked the Medical group forum as well?


----------



## x-grunt

Old Ranger said:
			
		

> X-Grunt, have you checked the Medical group forum as well?



Hey, Old Ranger, how you doing?
Yes, I have been watching all vision related posts closely. Good suggestion though.


----------



## dearryan

X-grunt,

 I have a form that the physicians as sitant gave me for my civi doc to fill out regarding my medical condition at 3 months. the civi doc has to be able to sign off, and clear you (under HIS requirements). A year wait time for PRK is ridiculous. If you want PM me and Ill try to email you the form....or you can ask for one yourself. 

Ryan


----------



## dearryan

hello all,

I just had a meeting with my accountant; He has told me that laser surgery is indeed tax deductable (in BC at least). So I would inquire come tax time regarding this sizable deduction. Thats all.

Ryan


----------



## Pearson87

I realize this is a dead thread, but I am close to getting PRK ( my eyes qualified ). I have heard you need to wait a year before applying for the CF if you get this done, I have heard 6 months. What are the rules and regulations surrounding PRK and the military? 

Thanks in advance


----------



## Old Ranger

There are answers in the search function.  Try "Vision"


----------



## dearryan

pearson
Check your PM's


----------



## 2006AF

Sorry if there is already something about this on this web site, I could not find it.

I had laser surgery done on my eyes 6 years ago.  The surgery went well and I have had great eye sight ever since.  The clinic that performed the surgery went out of business a few years after my surgery and the eye surgeon went back to the town that he has his original practice from, as an Ophthalmologist and eye surgeon, not performing laser surgery any more.

Before I even thought of applying to the airforce, I started working on my Private Pilot Licence (PPL).  I had to get medical clearance as part of my physical as far as the laser surgery.  This proved to be very difficult as the clinic was no longer in operation to get the paper work.  They kept 80% or so of the past years paper work in a basement and could not find mine.  So to make a long story short, since I wanted to fly so bad, I paid another eye surgeon to test out my eyes and put his name on the paper work saying that he performed testing on my eyes and that they are fine to fly.  Which they are.

The people at Transport Canada said that was good and off I went flying.

So now comes the problem.  I have read on here that pilot's in the airforce can not have had laser eye surgery done.  What would happen if I do not say anything and just say that I have not had it done???  I know that is lying but I have had one very respectable eye surgeon check my eyes and said that they were fine to fly (as far as a PPL goes).

Is there any part of the physical that can undercover the fact that I have had laser eye surgery?

Also I dislocated my shoulder in a skiing accident years ago and opted not to have the surgery to have the collar bone put back exactly where it came from.  This creates absolutely no problems for me in any way.  I just don;t want them saying that I can not fly due to these two things.  

Do the pilots that get accepted have perfect everything?

Thanks for your help !


----------



## ROTP Applicant

You would undergo a number of tests as part of the medical portion Aircrew Selection at DRDC Toronto. One of the tests is a topography of your cornea which will reveal the fact that you've had the surgery.


----------



## 2006AF

Ok thanks !  So If I tell them no I did not have laser eye surgery and then they find out that I did, then what?  Do they stop tetsing and kick me out or do they make me pick a MOC that I would qualify for?


----------



## D-n-A

Lieing/withholding info during the recruiting process is stupid. If/when they find out you've lied, you not be able to ever apply for the CF again, or any government job.


----------



## 2006AF

I understand that............ about lying

So as soon as I tell them about my eye surgery I am no longer able to be a pilot, correct?


----------



## Jaxson

2006AF said:
			
		

> I understand that............ about lying
> 
> So as soon as I tell them about my eye surgery I am no longer able to be a pilot, correct?



That would be correct, as stated If youve had lasik, you cant be a pilot. Also, if you lie it says alot about you, honesty is the best way to go about things especially when applying for the CF.


----------



## 23007

With laser eye surgery you CANNOT be a pilot in the miliatary. You have to pick another MOC or just fly for the civvies.

and yes...we have to have perfect everything :


----------



## 2006AF

That is why I am on this web site trying to find out some answers.   I would not have lied it is not my charachter. I simply wanted to know how they would find out itf I had it or not.

I have found a few threads that says it is still possible to fly.........

"Not entirely correct people...
To enter the CF as a pilot:
yes, you need 20/20 uncorrected, but the CF has leaned towards trained pilots getting laser eye surgery to maintain the "perfect vision".
But for Air crew (navigators, loadmasters, etc) You may get laser eye surgery to have what is called V1 or vision catagory 1 which is no less then 25/20 as you all would call it." posted by Armymedic April 25, 2004

and..............

"Join the infantry. You can fly helicoters and CF18s after you join. Its like a QL5 course or something."

"Thanks for that link... I failed my Aircrew medical (AirNav) due to laser eye surgery in 1999. Seems they revoked the restriction shortly after!" posted Jan 24th 2005

and ...........

"You can in practice become a pilot after joining, but you have to become an officer, and still undergo all the normal flight training that you would if you walked in off civvie street. There are more than a few programs that allow for this, but it won't happen until you've been in for at least your first Basic Engagement (3 years), and then it's based on competition. posted the same day in the same thread."

All of these posts give me a shimer of hope, that I can still fly.   Maybe I can not join directly as a pilot but is there still a way I can fly in the CF?
My first choice was Pilot which seems to bee a No Go, my second was Air Nav, am I out of that one too?
Thanks I won't give up on this until I hear NO to every possibility.


----------



## kincanucks

Next time to add validity to your references post the links too as it is very easy to cut and paste just what you want to and you have already revealed your level of trustworthiness thorough this thread.  You can try for any occupation but pilot and that is it, end of story.


----------



## Inch

I'd take some of those posts you found with a grain of salt, most of them are from people that are neither pilots nor medical pers.

Simply put, at this point in time, laser surgery is not permitted for pilots in the CF, either before you join or at any point in your career for that matter. Once you get your wings, you are permitted to wear glasses though. As for remustering to pilot later on, I know of a Sea King AVN tech that tried to remuster to pilot and was told he couldn't because he wears glasses.

So, you must have 20/20 uncorrected vision in order to apply for the Pilot MOC, uncorrected includes surgical correction.


----------



## CBH99

I don't imagine you would be out of the running too quickly.

If I'm not mistaken - the CF is currently looking for pilots due to a shortage, are they not?

Also - if your ALREADY a pilot, and you ALREADY have all of your flight school/pilot training done, that would give you a serious advantage over people just walking in off the street.   (I have a student pilot permit, so I'm not completely ignorant of this).   However, I'm no Air Force expert...I would imagine you'd be pretty qualified for a pilot MOC, no?


----------



## kincanucks

CBH99 said:
			
		

> I don't imagine you would be out of the running too quickly.
> 
> If I'm not mistaken - the CF is currently looking for pilots due to a shortage, are they not?
> 
> Also - if your ALREADY a pilot, and you ALREADY have all of your flight school/pilot training done, that would give you a serious advantage over people just walking in off the street.   (I have a student pilot permit, so I'm not completely ignorant of this).   However, I'm no Air Force expert...I would imagine you'd be pretty qualified for a pilot MOC, no?



You are wrong. The entry standards are not lowered because he has a couple of qualifications.


----------



## Zoomie

Okay...   <deep breathe>

LASIK eye surgery or any other brand name of Laser Eye surgery is not currently acceptable for any CF pilot - that is any CF pilot (clear?).

The basic medical requirements for Pilot is the same for average-joe Civilian as it is for Mr. Crunchy the Infanteer (not you Infanteer!) - the only time that the V1 uncorrected category can slip is for trained CF Pilots - they must be correctable without Laser eye surgery.

The restriction on LASIK may be lifted in the future - maybe next year, maybe 30 years from now.   Do not base your career choice on a maybe...

We do not only expect supermen (or women) to apply - we are not genetically superior beings, we just meet the basic aircrew requirements (of which one of them is the V1 category).   I am a CF pilot and I progressed through my aircrew selection with a myriad of small cardiac related issues - each of which were examined fully by the medical board and deemed not to be a factor.

There are lots of good exciting trades in the CF - join as an ANAV and then you will be in the perfect position to effect a   transfer to pilot if and when they drop the LASIK restriction - which I must reiterate could be in 30 years, could be tomorrow.








Mod edit.
Someones first name in open forum

Slim
STAFF


----------



## Inch

CBH99 said:
			
		

> I don't imagine you would be out of the running too quickly.
> 
> If I'm not mistaken - the CF is currently looking for pilots due to a shortage, are they not?
> 
> Also - if your ALREADY a pilot, and you ALREADY have all of your flight school/pilot training done, that would give you a serious advantage over people just walking in off the street.   (I have a student pilot permit, so I'm not completely ignorant of this).   However, I'm no Air Force expert...I would imagine you'd be pretty qualified for a pilot MOC, no?



No, I had a Commercial Multi IFR licence when I joined, I skipped PFT due to my College Aviation Diploma, but other than that, I did every single bit of training that everyone else did. As far as advantages go, I wouldn't say it's a huge advantage. I know of civvie pilots with over 1000hrs of flight time that failed out of the CF.

As a winged pilot I will say this, the day they start lowering standards just to fill gaps is the day I put some serious thought into prolonging my career knowing that the guy sitting next to me may not be as capable as someone else.


----------



## 2006AF

Thanks Zoomie !! I was waiting for a CF pilot to get into this.  I appreciate your cup is half full attitude rather than everyone else's cup is half empty attitude.

OK so for now I am out of the Pilot MOC but you are saying I am fine for AirNav MOC?  That was my second choice.


----------



## 2006AF

[size=10pt]*Hey kincanucks *   [/size] 

I have tried to copy the link that I got most of those posts from just so you don't think I made them up, like I care what you think anyway.

Re: Laser eye surgery 
 « Reply #12 on: April 25, 2004, 09:03:00  »

Army.ca Forums  |  The Field  |  Combat Service Support and Branches  |  Canadian Forces Medical Group (Moderator: old medic)  |  Topic: Laser eye surgery 


If you do a search for that, you should be able to find it.  Also take a look at his profile, unless you are scepticle that he may be lying too?


----------



## acclenticularis

scepticle?  Is that some sort of disease or something?  Kincanucks, not only does your 'own-time' gratuitous, appreciated-by-many professional support count for nothing, it appears that you have a very serious malady.  Sometimes the straight goods are not as appreciated as baseless advice.  If the person who started this thread prefers the advice of non-recruiters with questionable sources for their advice, perhaps the thread initiator should suffer the consequences and thus learn a valuable lesson.  Based on this person's attitude, this could only be good for the forces.


----------



## 2006AF

[size=10pt]*acclenticularis *   [/size] 

Thanks for pointing out my spelling mistakje I forgot to spell check that one for you.

I did not come on this site to talk to people like you, so if you don;t have anything good to say don't type.

I do appreciate everyone's advice on the _original post_.

Maybe you can answer a few other questions without the sarcasm ????  

Since I have had the eye surgery am I still ok for Air Nav?


----------



## Slim

2006AF said:
			
		

> OK so for now I am out of the Pilot MOC but you are saying I am fine for AirNav MOC?   That was my second choice.



I am not a pilot...CF or Civvy. I know NOTHING about flying, other than where to sit in a helicopter to take pics out the door.

Hopefully when I offer this bit of advise I will not get my foot jammed up my verbal keester for it. ( I better not as I'm a mod and know where all of you live! ;D)

My only piece of advise (take it for what its worth) is that if you love to fly then try and find a way to keep current...You never know what will happen. I'm not trying to raise your hopes up or start any false ones. I just know what its like not to be able to do the things you want to do...Even if its just as a hobby.

Cheers. Advice machine off.

Slim


----------



## Zoomie

2006AF said:
			
		

> Since I have had the eye surgery am I still ok for Air Nav?



Yes


----------



## Jaxson

2006AF said:
			
		

> [size=10pt]*Hey kincanucks *   [/size]
> 
> I have tried to copy the link that I got most of those posts from just so you don't think I made them up, like I care what you think anyway.
> 
> 
> If you do a search for that, you should be able to find it.   Also take a look at his profile, unless you are sceptical that he may be lying too?



First off he wasnt accusing you of making them up, what he wanted to do, or what i assume he wanted to do was infact read the threads and post you were referring to, to see if it came from a credible source. Second, Kincanucks is a recruiter and what he told you about going for anything but pilot,is to save you time and down the road when they find out you have infact had Lasik.Your question has been answerd: No you can not CURRENTLY   become a pilot in the CF, but you are eligible to be Air Nav if you pass all tests and meet all requirements.


----------



## Good2Golf

2332Piper said:
			
		

> Both of you take a deep breath, and remove your heads from your rear ends.
> 
> On this website, you will recieve advice from many people, some of which (like kincanucks) know alot about what they are saying. Therefore, unless you suffer from a severe lack of IQ points, you would be well advised to shutup and take that advice, or ignore it. You would be well advised to NOT mouth off to a member of this site (and the CF) with plenty of TI and who has garnered quite a bit of respect among the members of this website. If you want to ask for advice and recieve the most current available, and then ignore. Fine. But DO NOT proceed to try to show how smart you are by trying to disprove someone who deals with questions like yours everday. It is a well known fact that pilots in the CF have never been allowed to have laser eye surgery. Everyone in the CF who knows a pilot knows that.
> 
> So welcome to army.ca and unless your attitude changes, may your stay be a short one. Very short.




 : ....................


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

> Yeah. I see a PM from a mod in the very near future for me. Oh well.



Nah. I am sure most of us were thinking the same thing. 

I would have taken my email address, that contains my name, out of my profile if I felt the need to shoot from the hip at my future employers. :tsktsk:


----------



## acclenticularis

Thanks for the advice 2332.  I suppose I was a little harsh, as were you.  I have been following the forums for months and I have found Kincanucks to be a valuable, respected source of info.  Having been in the military before (for 10 years), and having taken an educational break, and now returning, I have found Kincanucks' posts very useful.  In fact I have only had to post for information just once, due to the responses that he has provided in other posts that apply to my situation.  I suppose Kincanucks can fight his own battles, however, I found it rather offensive that the poster would take such a tone with someone who has helped so many.  And I do respect the advice of others that are in the military ... as I have been and will be in the near future again.  P.S. you sound like my Chilliwack instructor, except he would say "shut your cake hole or I will chew your head off and %$it down the stump".


----------



## 2006AF

Ok so what I have learned so far is that if you have sarcastic remarks to be made a good place for them if you feel they absolutely need to me made is through a private message and not out in the open of the forum.

Thanks to everyone who have answered all of the questions


----------



## Pte. Bloggins

2006AF said:
			
		

> "Join the infantry. You can fly helicoters and CF18s after you join. Its like a QL5 course or something.



ROTFLMAO!  ;D


----------



## 2006AF

I am supposed to have a form filled out for the CF for the laser eye surgery that I had done.   This form is supposed to be filled out by the operating physician that did the eye surgery.   The form needs *pre-op * and post-op eye conditions.     This is where the problem occurs.   I had the surgery done 6 years ago and the company has since gone out of business.   I have contacted the doctor who still practices, when I needed ironically the same form the CF uses for my private pilot licence almost two years ago.   His office has most of the files archived, but at that time and still now can not find my file.   For my PPL I was able to get another   eye doctor to do an eye exam for me and fill out this form for transport Canada.   Tranpsort Canada ok'd this form even though the *pre-op * part had to left blank.
Since I can not get the pre-op eye conditions what can I do?????

I am no longer going for Pilot, I am going for my second choice now for Air Nav.


----------



## kincanucks

Well if I were you I would start by calling the medical person at your CFRC/D and asking them.  It doesn't matter whether you are going Air Nav now you still need to provide the information regardless of your occupation choice.


----------



## 2006AF

Thanks Kincanucks. Hopefully we are nicer to each other this time 

I did ask the medical person at the recruiting centre and he said to do my best to get that info, but offered no ideas if I can not get the info, he just said that it is something that is required.
I would love to provide the info if I could get it rather than calling all over trying to find out what to do and paying more $$ for eye exams.
So lets say that there is no way of getting my old files to get the pre-op info (I doubt the doc that did the surgery would let me go rumaging through the files until I found mine, apparently they are all stored in a basement in London, Ontario).
Is it a dead end at that point?


----------



## kincanucks

Well correct me if I am wrong but isn't the doctor who did the surgery under an obligation to provide the information?  If not and he doesn't then I would assume that you need to get another doctor to do it or go back to the recruiting medical person and say "WTF do I do now?"


----------



## 2006AF

Your right Kincanucks !   BUT what can I do when every time I call the office of the doc that did my surgery they tell me they will look, and within a few hours they call me back and say NOPE couldn't find it !
It really pisses me off that the company folded and they just threw all the patient files in a basement with no organization   !   It is impossible for me to have any other doctor write down pre -operation results, since it is now post-operation.
I am going to call the recruiting office and talk to the doc that did my medical and see WTF to do now.   What a pain in the *** the is !   The only hope that I have is that they accept it like it is just as Transport Canada did.   I am not too sure what difference the pre-operation results have now anyway, you would think all that matters is how my eyes are currently.   Unless they want to know how much of a correction was done during the operation?


----------



## Dog

Did you ever go to a different eye doctor before you had your surgery? Maybe they can give your pre-op test results?


----------



## ImanIdiot

Hello all,

Not to continually beat a dead horse, but I thought I would mention I had LASIK(I opted for LASIK over PRK because of the quicker healing time- I can't take a week off work at the moment) about 50 hours ago, and so far it impresses me. The procedure itself was not fun. There is no pain at all, but really, who likes being poked at? They use some kind of suction tool that changes the shape of your eye-causing everything to go black- and then it cuts the corneal flap. Like I said, there's no pain, but it wasn't pleasant either. Each eye took about 5 mins. The laser smells like burning hair. Yum.

The day of surgery is pretty lame, because all you want to do is close your eyes and go to sleep, but they recommend you stay awake for 5 or 6 hours after surgery. Of course, no TV, computer, or reading.....so good luck keeping your mind occupied. The drops they gave you were not fun, either....it felt like I was dropping sand into my eyes....but yesterday I found them quite soothing, so chalk it up to just post-procedure discomfort.

Today is not as clear as yesterday, although apparently it can fluctuate quite a bit over the first few weeks. I had my 24 hr post op check up yesterday morning, and Doc said I could expect increasingly clearer vision as time goes on. That's pretty awesome considering I wouldn't have complained if it had just stayed the same as it was right then!

So, today I have some minor blurry-ness, and light sensitivity. Nothing to worry about. I don't want to jinx anything, but so far, so good! Hopefully I will continue to improve! Good luck to those about to get it done.


----------



## mover1

Funny my doctor told me the exact opposite, I was to sleep for three hours after surgurey so I wouldn't get the sand in the eye feeling. 
Your vision will fluctuate for the next few months. I found the fishbowl feeling at night hard to adjust to, but I did eventually and it went away.


----------



## Cliffy433

Before you read - I am not a representative or employee of the Gimble Centre - just an INCREDIBLY SATISFIED CUSTOMER.  Any further questions, PM / email me and I'll get back to you.  I will detail the entire procedure for you.  All stats etc are from 1999 as that's when I had the procedure.  

As for the CF Regs on it - I cannot say.

I went from being unable to read the big friggin' "E" at the top of the chart (roughly 20/400+ in each eye) to 20/15 in both eyes, yep, that's slightly better than perfect!!

Best $3000 I ever spent!!  I got it done in Dec 99 at the Gimble (sp?) centre in Edmonton.  I mention the name because I believe in the following:

1. Research:
 - according to a Time magazine article published in '99 the largest learning curves for a surgeon are at 600 and 800 procedures, therefore, you should get a surgeon who has done approximately 1000 
*(my surgeon had been with the Gimble centre for years, and performed in the range of 3000 procedures - PRK, LASIK, this does not include his Cataract or Lens Replacement numbers)*​
 - the best odds for minimal complications and largest permanent effect are between 18 and 25 years of age for the patient 
*(I was 23)*​
 - Average complication rate for "discount" laser eye joints (as low as $450/eye in Wpg that year) nationally? 
*~ 1 in 100*​
 - What do the discount places consider a complication? 
_*Any reduction in vision*_​
 - Average complication rate for Gimble Centres? 
*Less than 1 in 1000*​
 - What does the Gimble Centre consider a complication?
  *Dry or irritated eyes beyond 6 months post-op.*​
2. Cost:

 - I went to the most expensive place, why? well, Dr Gimble (based in Calgary) brought PRK from Russia and was instrumental in the development of LASIK 
*(those are impressive credentials) *​
 - the words "discount" and "laser eye surgery" DO NOT GO IN THE SAME SENTENCE

Read that last line until it sinks in.

tlm.


----------



## Chauhan

Im going for Veh Tech if i save up enough money for my laser eye surgery while im in training my MOC can i go ahead and get laser eye surgery while im serving in the CF or you must take off some time or how does it go? and as a Veh Tech are the ranks and promotions same as infantry and others.. since we get paid according to our ranks..What do we make as Privates? on the pay chart it says 2421 $ after the taxes rations insurance and all that what does it come down to?


----------



## George Wallace

Locked:

There are dozens of Threads on this topic already.

Some are:

My Journey Through the Recruitment Process (including LASIK info)  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/35067.0.html 

What is the LASIK policy of the Army?   http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/22971.0.html

 What's the Canadian Forces Policy on Laser Eye Surgery? (Lasik)   http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/28672.0.html  

Lasik before or after training   http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21820.0.html

Lasik Eye Correction / Recruitment   http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/13313.0.html

What was laser surgery like for you?.  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33536.0.html

Lasik surgery   http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/13032.0.html

Laser eye surgery... acceptable or not?   http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/30942.0.html

vision requirements  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/30014.0.html

Laser eye surgery   http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/26417.0.html

laser vision correction & the CF   http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/28987.0.html

The CF policy on laser eye surgery for Pilots? Unfair?   http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/25631.0.html

Eyesight?   http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/13297.0.html

And there are many more if you use the "SEARCH FUNCTION"

I have done enough searching for a few minutes, you can take over.


----------



## MikeL

I searched, out of the threads that are still around I didn't really find something that answered my specific question.


Right now I'm doing a componet transfer, an I've been accepted in the trade, etc. Right now they are taking forever to do a prior learning assesment, etc. Seems like I got a fair bit of time before I get my formal job offer, etc.  Anyways, I was considering getting LASIK done an staying in my current trade, etc. I read for a civvie who just got it done he/she would have to wait 6 months before being able to apply(something like that) but how about a serving PRes member already accepted into the Regs? Would I have to wait 6 months an do another medical an start the process again or will it not effect my transfer(an get my eyes checked out 6 months after LASIK).

Thanks


----------



## WT

I'm currently applying to the reserves from the CFRC based in Montreal.
I've enquired about their LASIK stance and I've been told that whenever the ophtalmologist signs that you're ok to go, they'll take you.
They've said this usually takes between 1-3 months with most ophtalmologists waiting the whole 3 months to cover their behinds.
I dunno how much of this applies to you, but it's what I've been told.
-WT-


----------



## dearryan

WT said:
			
		

> I'm currently applying to the reserves from the CFRC based in Montreal.
> I've enquired about their LASIK stance and I've been told that whenever the ophtalmologist signs that you're ok to go, they'll take you.
> They've said this usually takes between 1-3 months with most ophtalmologists waiting the whole 3 months to cover their behinds.
> I dunno how much of this applies to you, but it's what I've been told.
> -WT-



I waited 3 months to the day after my laser eye correction to do my medical.


----------



## MikeL

I don't think thats too relevent to me, since you have a different situation. Anyways, don't matter as I called the LASIK place an I can't get my eyes done for like 6-8 weeks.


----------



## mbhabfan

The reason I ask this is because when I had my eye examination the doctor read the specifications page from the cf air medical requirements.  His exact words were " I can't see any reason why not" 

Today the local recruiter calls me and informs me that it is very borderline and he is not sure whether it will pass.  Is there a definite line or not?  My optometrist couldn't see any reason to not meet the requirements so how can the local medic think otherwise?  Am I missing something here?  He has sent my file in as is anyway, just curious as to why the deviation away from what I have already been informed by a professional.


----------



## Bograt

First, It is great to see ( no pun intended) that things are progressing for you.

So you have done the medical, interview, CFAT and PT test, and now they are recommending you for aircrew?

I am under the impression that there is a standard and that you are in or you are out, it doesn't matter if you are close. Best thing is to ask the status of your file.

Good luck.


----------



## mbhabfan

my original cfat was high enough.  I have had the interview, the extra blood work for aircrew.  Just waiting for my file to be cleared medically again and then hopefully an aircrew date shortly.


----------



## kincanucks

The CF Medical system will decide whether you meet the vision requirements to be a pilot not your civilian optometrist.


----------



## mbhabfan

yes I understand that part.  I was referring to whether the standard had changed or not.  If I pass according to the specs laid out by the cf as ready by my doctor I would think that would be a pretty good indication.  Thanks for your help though.


----------



## kincanucks

No the standards have not changed and the assessment of whether or not you meet the vision standards to be a pilot is lot more complex than a civilian optometrist looking at the specifications and saying "I can't see any reason why not".


----------



## mbhabfan

I printed the cf aircrew medical eye examination specifications and brought it to him.  So he can't read the guidelines and tell if I am more than likely going to fit in them??? Not trying to sound like a pest here but why wouldn't he be able to read the guidelines and give me an idea?  I know the final say is with the recruiting people.


----------



## kincanucks

Yes he can certainly do that, give you an idea. ( I know the final say is with the recruiting people) so what is the point of your first post?


----------



## mbhabfan

in my original post I asked if they had changed the requirements lately.  If they had changed the requirements, I could understand the medic contradicting what the doctor had told me.  If they haven't changed the requirements then I will assume that the eye doctor knew what he was talking about.


----------



## double0three

The standards have been pretty much the same for quite some time as far as I know.

20/20 vision uncorrected.  One eye can be as bad as 20/30, and your color vision has to be near perfect as well.  As for the +/- refraction numbers, I believe they cannot be any worse than - 0.25, or + 2.50 or so.


----------



## Melbatoast

double0three said:
			
		

> The standards have been pretty much the same for quite some time as far as I know.
> 
> 20/20 vision uncorrected.  One eye can be as bad as 20/30, and your color vision has to be near perfect as well.  As for the +/- refraction numbers, I believe they cannot be any worse than - 0.25, or + 2.50 or so.



booya

http://www.toronto.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/medical/visreq_e.html

Rather complex ophthamalogical requirements to be met, past just the refraction standards.


----------



## rz350

Will, I just got lasik (2 days ago) and am 20/20 in each eye and 20/15 with both. But the thing is, I submitted my medical papers back in february, with horrid vision and am wondering wether I wait for them to call me to tell them, or go to the CFRC and tell them my current eye medical is out of date and can I retake the vision test? I'm going for armoured recce. I did it so hastly for a few reasons one, I had the money now, and wanted to get lasik instead of letting the temptation for a new motorcycle suck the money out of my pocket. 2: so that my eyes would be healed by fall, which is when I would go to BMQ if I am accepted. So do I call them and tell them, or wait for them to call me?


----------



## Michael OLeary

Go to the CFRC, update your file.  Find out what affect it will have on processing time, if any.


----------



## Wookilar

rz,

The way it is worded, you should be on a "medical category" (don't know if the same terminology applies to those applying) for a maximum of 6 months or (paraphrasing here, can't remember the exact wording) until the vision category stabilizes. When you do your follow up appointments, get your Doc to put it in writing when they are finished healing and stabilizing. I know you are seeing awesome in both right now, but it can take upwards of 6 months to really figure out what they are going to be. Keep those eye-drops going.

It took mine almost 3 months and almost screwed myself out of a good go down to Camp Ripley. But, I would let the CFRC know right away, with a change in vision category, a whole bunch more trades might now be open.

Kinda scary when they tried to suck your eyeball out of your head while cutting the flap straight, eh? That really sucked for me, at any rate. Got lasik 4 years ago now, still better than 20/20 in both eyes  .


----------



## lawandorder

I had Wavefront PRK,a little  newer then lasik.  I had to go to the recruitment centre pick up a form that my surgeon had to fill out and then the re-submitted it and sent it back to borden.  I would guess you could do somthing similar.


----------



## windsorftw

Hello, I was recently informed that the CF is changing the visual requirements for pilots (as in they will allow lasik correction). 
Has anyone else heard of this, or know where I can find information about this on the web?  I've tried searching and cannot find anything.
My next guess would be to call a recruiting office if I can't find the information here.

Any info would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Gazoo

I have been in Recruiting for three years, and have heard the vision standard for Pilot is going to change.  So far it has not.  Believe me, as soon as something like that does change we will find out quickly and ensure the word gets out.


----------



## Loachman

Thre is a realization that current requirements are perhaps both outdated and overly restrictive, which should result in a change within, oh, ten years or so.


----------



## Gazoo

I don't think the issue is necessarily that requirements are outdated.  I understand vision correction surgery is OK for civilian pilots, but I don't know if any studies have been done on the effects of high altitude depressurization.  What I am specifically referring to is fighter aircraft.  Also what about ejecting from a fighter, what would the effect be?  Now I know we fly more than fighter aircraft, BUT we have only one vision standard.  Maybe that should change, but I don't think it will.


----------



## Loachman

That's all part of it being outdated.

Other terms could be used, too.

The requirement is V1, uncorrected, for recruiting purposes. This drops for "experienced " military pilots - which has been interpreted to mean once they get past Clearhood 1 (first lesson) on their Primary Flying Course.

When I started flying, fighter pilots couldn't wear glasses. Contact lenses became popular, but nobody could fly with those for many years either. That's all changed.

The stated reason for refusing to accept any form of laser eye surgery was the possibility of some sort of colour halo effect under certain lighting conditions. I do not recall the specific wording - or hearing about any actual complaints from recipients of this treatment.

The Armed Forces will not pay for the procedure, due to risk and cost. Glasses are safer.

They wouldn't pay for contact lenses either at one time.

This is a very conservative organization.


----------



## I_am_John_Galt

windsorftw said:
			
		

> Hello, I was recently informed that the CF is changing the visual requirements for pilots (as in they will allow lasik correction).



Whoever "informed" you of this is wrong.  I am in a recruiting centre right now: the standard has not changed.

Apparently the US Navy is experimenting with corrective surgery to existing members: http://www.avweb.com/newswire/12_25b/briefs/192540-1.html?CMP=OTC-RSS


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

> Hello, I was recently informed that the CF is changing the visual requirements for pilots (as in they will allow lasik correction).



I had V1 for the vision test but I am just curious as to what the rumour is exactly - this is the second time I have about a "pilot vision requirement change" rumour. 

[stupidquestion] Is the rumour that the CF is going to change the vision requirements to allow people who have had lasik or that they lowering the vision requirements altogether - as in accepting applicants who don't have 20/20 but something acceptable, whatever that may be. Or is it just that people are hoping the CF is going to do this because they "...are short pilots" and they need to fill the vacant spots with qualified people who don't have V1 and the rumour is spreading.[/stupidquestion]


----------



## IrishCanuck

I just hope they accept me into pilot training  , my vision is fine.


----------



## kitrad1

Good posts, all of them.

The requirement is that pilot applicants (that is to say, those who were not former serving pilots) must have 20/20 uncorrected vision.

If and when the policy changes, you can be sure that the word will get out to CFRCs.


----------



## windsorftw

I was informed by the Windsor Star (local news paper)

The whole issue on laser eye surgery is this - the individual seeing "halo's" or a blurring effect during night missions.  Now this is true of the procedure 15 years ago when it was first introduced, but technology changes and as such, laser eye surgery is getting better and more efficient.  I have had the procedure done about a year and a half ago and have no side effects (halo's at night) and personally I think they SHOULD change the requirements.  
All in all, with the current lack of personnel to key positions, I think it is wise of the CF to change the standards.  And when they do, I'll be one of the first to apply as a DEO pilot.  Hopefully they will have the change before 10 years though!


O' Canada!


----------



## ark

> Lucas said the air force has recently updated requirements that previously excluded most women from becoming pilots.
> 
> Vision standards are next on the list for the air force, and Lucas anticipates a report in the coming months.
> 
> "Right now, we have probably the most stringent vision standards of anybody out there," he said.
> "We're looking at that to see if it still makes sense in today's age of corrective vision."



http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=dfbbcad0-400a-4182-905e-51ff1bf676f6&k=71334

This is the latest I was able to dig concerning changes in vision standards.

Good luck


----------



## windsorftw

I decided to hit the CFRC here in Windsor to see if they had any additional information (and to apply for DEO for the Inf Reserves).  There is a new recruiting directive that will be out by August, and chances are the changes to pilot vision requirements will be implemented in the directive.

I'm just hoping that laser eye surgery will be allowed in there somewhere!
In the meantime, I guess I'll have to stick with the infantry.


----------



## UB6IB9

this issue has been the subject of much debate for the past 10 years. everytime this issue comes out you hear "it's just around the corner" the same banter as "pilot will be put on the NAFTA trades list.....it's just around the corner" the fact is canada is just behind. the US military have there own doctors doing research on the effects of corrective surgery, while the canadian military does not. and no doctor in canada from private sector is willing to conduct their own research on the canadian forces behalf. one common concern regarding the banning of corrective surgery for canadian forces pilot's is the fact that all canadian forces pilot's train on the same aircraft...which has an ejection seat. that is the main concern. the effects of high g's on a surgically corrected eye. also, a common misconception about the US military...willingness to accept the surgery as a means of entrance is false. the surgical procedure is still not approved for pilot candidates.......HOWEVER, a WAIVER can be obtained. meaning...if you meet certain requirements you might get the waiver. other's and plenty have not. 

just playing the devil's advocate here. i sure hope they allow it. there have been some pretty qualified candidates who have been turned away because of it. who know's....but for the time being......i wouldn't hold my breath. 

regards,
someone who's "in the know"


----------



## big bad john

sirukin said:
			
		

> I'm just going to say what's going on in the back of everyone's minds.....
> 
> Corrected vision will be accepted for pilots when and only when combat grade remote control robotic fighter drone's in effectiveness replace the capabilities of regular combat pilots.
> 
> heh, call me paranoid, but it could happen. I mean to say that any pilots accepted afterwards will be flying transports.
> hrm?



Read more post less, when you post, post something worth reading not tripe.  Contribute to the whole of the site please or say nothing.  Also use the spell check feature more often.


----------



## Rob

Well August has come and gone.  Does anyone know if this new recruiting directive ever came out, and if so, what was included in it (specifically, any changes in vision requirements for pilots)?

Thanks


----------



## probum non poenitet

Dude, I'm still holding my breath waiting for the implementation of Corps '86 ~~


----------



## Good2Golf

probum non poenitet said:
			
		

> Dude, I'm still holding my breath waiting for the implementation of Corps '86 ~~



LMAO!  :rofl:


----------



## Foxman

Hi,

I just found this article:

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/genjoin/a/pilotvision.htm

I had PRK laser surgery in 2000 with no negative effects. At that time, I vaguely remember something about the US Navy allowing their pilots to get laser surgery. Also, (and I'm certainly no medical authority) I remember being tested with some sort of drops that fully dilate your pupil. I was told that the corrected area, when you have surgery, is approximately 8mm. If your pupil dilates more than 8mm, you will see coronas around lights at night. If it doesn't, you won't. Apparently, some less reputeably shops will not do this test as it will discourage some of their customers....oops, I mean patients. The hazing is a little harder to predict, but from what I remember PRK has (or had at that time - things change) a lower chance of this sort of complication. PRK hurts like hell though.

Anyways, I'm dragging this all from my imperfect memory

Cheers


----------



## windsorftw

Well I handed in all my paper work for Inf Officer in the Regs, and I asked if there were any changes were made.  The Recruiter told me there were some changes however they are slow to receive the official changes and was told to call back in a week.  If I find anything out next week when I call, I'll post it up for all to see.

I'm still keeping my fingers crossed on this one.


----------



## Gunnar

> I was told that the corrected area, when you have surgery, is approximately 8mm. If your pupil dilates more than 8mm, you will see coronas around lights at night. If it doesn't, you won't.



I had those drops done on my uncorrected eyes when I was trying to get in.  They dilated my pupils all right....I don't recall ever seeing those coronas before I had the drops, but once I had them, I always see coronas at night.

That being said, I have worn glasses for some time, but that seems to be one thing that changed since the drops...no idea why.  Anyone have any answers?  Apart from the obvious "maybe you just never noticed before..."?


----------



## Good2Golf

A Cycloplegic Refraction partially dilates the pupils but more to the point relaxes the lens to allow an unaffected assessment of the eyeès internal structure...that's why as the lens relaxes, you can't focus as closely...reading by holding the book/mag further and further away from your eyes until you give up and imagine what it would be like to be an old fart.  ;D


----------



## GAP

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> imagine what it would be like to be an old fart.  ;D



hey! hey! .....just as soon as I can see you, them's fighting words bucko!! 

from the old fart  ;D


----------



## freekers

Has anyone had any news since then? I'm eager to know. I saw the US Navy and marines are open-minded enough to let people gone under lasik in their cockpits, and I have heard that the Canadian Air Force was analysing feedback of the US Navy for early experiments on lasik after-effects under hi-G stress. 

Vision is a basic requirement, and not even a skill, I think we should let everyone the chance to prove its skills and motivation to serve our country at 30000 feet  ;D


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

freekers said:
			
		

> Vision is a basic requirement, and not even a skill, I think we should let everyone the chance to prove its skills and motivation to serve our country at 30000 feet  ;D



I have heard this said before; oh no wait - my mistake. Substitute the word "Vision" with "degree" or "B.A." and I have heard it before. Having said that, CEOTP opened the door for those people so I guess you never know!  Having said _that_ things, sorry rumours, can take a LONG time to become fact IF they do... 

Just as an example, I went through the process with three friends who had 20/20 but were told they did not satisfy the requirements. I still here from them almost a year later (with the exception of one who cringes at the word Recruiting) and they are still holding their breath for the same news...

Good luck...

Edit: Sorry forgot to add that others (not me mind you) will say:
- call the recruiting centre and find out
- the basic eligibility requirements are what they are, accept them and get on with your life (I heard this a lot !)


----------



## freekers

Ok so let's get on with our lives. Completing my M.Eng in aerospace engineering next year is not enough to have a seat in a CF18 but IF, since then, they open the door to LASIK then I will be there to take my chance for sure.

I wait on monday to call the recruiting center. I indeed believe there is little chance that these requirements have changed just now (the synchro would just be too good), but who knows...

I'll post the info if I get it.


----------



## Sigop2004

Post removed so no one gets offended


----------



## aesop081

Sigop2004 said:
			
		

> Not meaning to troll or anything but how many bombs have Canadian pilots dropped on allies lately.



If you had any idea what its like to work in a warplane at high speeds in an fast changing environment, you wouldnt be spouting off idiotic comments like this.  If you know nothing of the subject, then back away from your keyboard. Blue-on-blue incidents are usualy a case of miscomunication or confusion on the battle field, before jumping to conclusion and mashing the keys to post on here, think a little while longer.


----------



## George Wallace

This Topic is LOCKED

Reason:  Same questions being asked by people too lazy to read the whole topic (and this is a short two page one).

Anyone with any further information that has not been put forward so far, please contact a Mod and it will be included/reopened.


----------



## razor

Hi everybody. I recently applyed for pilot/airnav and completed the aptitude, 1, 2 medical and interview no problem. Now I have to go and get some more medicals done such as eye exams and blood tests. 

I havnt gotten my vision tested in a while and at the cfrc they told me I has 6/6 in the right and 6/9 in the left. Now I dont know what happened but as far as Im concerned you cant be a pilot in the military without 6/6 in each eye. I got an eye exam in a week and Im kind of nervous.  

Also anyone know whats next in my venture? 

Much help and advise is appreciated.

-Razor


----------



## George Wallace

Welcome to Army.ca

Your questions have already been answered.  Check here:


*Army.ca Conduct Guidelines*: MUST READ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937.0.html

MSN and ICQ "short hand" -  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33247.0.html

Regarding the use of "MSN speak" versus the employment of prose which is correct in grammar, spelling and punctuation, please see: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/34015/post-260446.html#msg260446

Tone and Content on Army.ca: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/51970.0.html

FRIENDLY ADVICE TO NEW MEMBERS - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937/post-259412.html#msg259412

Recruiting FAQ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21101.0.html

Army.ca Wiki Recruiting FAQ - http://army.ca/wiki/index.php/Frequently_Asked_Questions


Canadian Forces Aptitude Test - http://army.ca/forums/threads/21101/post-103977.html#msg103977
Fitness requirements at enrolment, see page 12 of this brochure: http://64.254.158.112/pdf/physical_fitness_en.pdf

Infantry Specific FAQ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21131.0.html

Search page - http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?action=search;advanced

Google search of Army.ca - http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=+site%3Aarmy.ca+%22search+term%22&btnG=Search&meta= (follow the link then replace "search term" with what you are looking for)

Army.ca wiki pages  - http://army.ca/wiki/index.php/Main_Page


To summarize. Welcome to Army.ca, start reading.


----------



## Michael OLeary

If you search on pilot vision, limiting the search to the last 365 days, and restricting the search to these boards:
* Recruiting
* Physical Standards
* Enrolment Medical 
 ....you wil get a return of four threads have recent discussions on pilot vision requirements.


----------



## Michael OLeary

The following section has been added to the Recruiting FAQ:

*Vision Threads for Pilot Applicants(eyesight)*

for those with bad eyes....
The CF policy on laser eye surgery for Pilots? Unfair?
Vision 20/16
Becoming a Pilot
Colour Blindness
Need advice ... in a tough situation
Pilot Vision Requirement Changes
laser eye for pilot 
Have the exact vision requirements for pilot changed?


----------



## RetiredRoyal

Lasik with custom wavefront and no intralase. I chose microkeratome as the FDA does not support the claim you get better results with intralase, only less operative and post op complications. My centre uses the Hanson microkeratome which has a lower operative complication rate than any around. I also chose microkeratome over intralase because of the shorter suction time on the eye. The internal pressure in your eye is delicate, the shorter time the suction ring is on, the better.

My results....went from 20/400 (I could make out the big E, sort of) in each eye to 20/20 individually and 20/15 binocular. That was 18 hours after surgery. My surgeons says it should improve slightly over the next 3 months.

My experience, excellent. Highly recommended, worth every penny. They sent me home with 'bubbles' taped to my face, you can't see through them well as they fog up very quickly, the idea is to create high humidity around your eyes until the follow up. You take them off for the drops and put htem right back on.

I did not experience the burning or scratchy feeling some find. I did get a little discomfort in my left eye as the freezing wore off and could feel the swelling of the flap when i blinked until I put my eyedrops in when I got home.

I was cleared to drive after 18 hours, have had to ground myself from flying for 3 months etc. My vision is much clearer now, colours are more brilliant and printed words look crisper.

I got the surgery because I'm trying to re-enroll and after the 2005 medical standards change, i would have gone from a V3 on release to a V5 at re-enrollment.

Wonder if I would have gotten kicked out because of my vision if I'd stayed in?


----------



## russianfrontphotos

Just wanted to let you all know that there is a new rule in place regarding laser eye surgery.
I had my CFAT late June and had my Med and Interview set for July 12th. I told the lady at the booking counter that I was going to have
laser eye surgery on June 29th. She said it didn't matter. I called the office 2 days before the med & interview and I was told that I must now wait 3 months after the surgery date to have my medical. So that means end of September for me. I could have gone ahead with the interview but I decided to postpone that to medical day as to not have to make 2 trips downtown. 

So be advised. Don't know if this is a Vancouver office rule or a new forces-wide rule. A Cpl in the centre said this new rule JUST came into place. She was advised from above. Reading back through this post there does seem to have been a mandatory wait in the past. Its strange then that the counter lady was clueless about it??


----------



## labattblue

Is there any wait period after having laser eye before being able to deploy?


----------



## PMedMoe

Wow, I did a "search" for laser eye surgery and look what I came up with:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/26412.0.html


----------



## old medic

There is a period spent on a temporary category immediately after the surgery. 
Expect it to be anywhere from 3 to 6 months. 

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/26417.0.html



			
				St. Micheals Medical Team said:
			
		

> Then if you are below spec, you may get the surgery if...
> 
> 1. Granted permission from CO,
> 2. Go on 6 - 12 temp medical catagory,
> 3. Pay for it yourself..
> 
> Then you have to be cleared V2 or higher by Opthamoligist (if your paying $1500, your eyes better be V1).



They have shortened the TCat to 3 months, if you go right to the end of that thread.


----------



## bisonmedic

As far as I recall, there is no TCAT after the surgery is done. The changes happened a ways back, but I can confirm soonest.


----------



## Armymedic

Swingline1984 said:
			
		

> until I was healed (approx 3 months).  That was it.  No TCat.


By the letter of the law, any recovery time > 3 months should be a TCat. Your MO was just avoiding the extra paperwork.


----------



## bisonmedic

As long as you are following the direction of the MD that performed your procedure and there are no problems with your eyes, then you shouldn't have a category. You should visit the medics and get some workplace limitations IE, no contact sports, no close quarter combat etc for the duration of your healing process.


----------



## Sig_Des

Great news, and I love the Highlighted bit:



> CANFORGEN 069/08 CAS 014 081205Z APR 08
> LASER (EYE) REFRACTIVE SURGERY IN CF AIRCREW
> UNCLASSIFIED
> 
> 
> REFS: A. 6600-1 (CAS) 20 MAR 08
> HTTP://VCDS.MIL.CA//CAS/DMCS2005/FILES0/DMCS-17864.PDF
> B. 1150-1 (SSO AV MED) 22 OCT 07
> C. RODS 1150-1 (CAS MED ADV) OCT 07
> D. AMA DIRECTIVE 400-02 LASER REFRACTIVE SURGERY FOR CF AIRCREW
> HTTP://WINNIPEG.MIL.CA/1CDNAIRDIVSURG/FLTSURG/GUIDELINES.HTM
> E. FSG 400-01 VISUAL STANDARDS FOR CF AIRCREW
> F. A-GA-005-000/AG-001 CHAP 7 - MEDICAL STANDARDS FOR CF AIRCREW
> 
> 
> 
> THE PURPOSE OF THIS MESSAGE IS TO COMMUNICATE RECENT CHANGES MADE TO CF POLICY ON LASER REFRACTIVE SURGERY IN AIRCREW
> 
> 
> IN THE PAST, PILOT APPLICANTS WHO HAD UNDERGONE CORRECTIVE LASER REFRACTIVE SURGERY WERE NOT ELIGIBLE FOR ENTRY INTO AIRCREW OCCUPATIONS. SERVING PILOTS WERE ALSO DENIED THE OPPORTUNITY TO UNDERGO LASER REFRACTIVE SURGERY TO CORRECT FOR REFRACTIVE ERRORS
> 
> 
> AT REF A, CAS ENDORSED THE RECOMMENDATION FROM THE AEROMEDICAL POLICY AND STANDARDS COMMITTEE (REF B) TO APPROVE LASER REFRACTIVE SURGERY FOR CF AIRCREW INCLUDING PILOTS. THE RECOMMENDATIONS WERE MADE FOLLOWING THE CF REFRACTIVE SURGERY SYMPOSIUM (REF C) AND ARE CAPTURED IN THE AEROSPACE MEDICINE AUTHORITY DIRECTIVE 400-02 LASER REFRACTIVE SURGERY FOR CF AIRCREW (REF D)
> 
> 
> REFER TO REF A OR REF D FOR THE FULL LIST OF APPROVED/NON-APPROVED PROCEDURES
> 
> 
> IN ALL CASES, APPLICANTS AND SERVING MEMBERS MUST STILL MEET THE VISION STANDARDS DETAILED AT REFS E AND F
> 
> 
> AS THE CF DOES NOT YET INCLUDE LASER REFRACTIVE SURGERY IN ITS SPECTRUM OF CARE, BOTH THE DECISION TO UNDERTAKE SUCH SURGERY AND THE ADMINISTRATIVE ARRANGEMENTS ARE THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE CF MEMBER. PLEASE NOTE HOWEVER THAT WRITTEN CHAIN OF COMMAND APPROVAL IS STILL REQUIRED BY SERVING MEMBERS PRIOR TO THE COMMENCEMENT OF ANY LASER REFRACTIVE SURGERY. FOR DETAILS CONCERNING ELIGIBILITY AND STANDARDS, INDIVIDUALS ARE ENCOURAGED TO CONTACT EITHER THEIR LOCAL RECRUITING CENTRE OR THEIR LOCAL FLIGHT SURGEON.
> 
> 
> *FUNDING: A CF FUNDING POLICY FOR LASER REFRACTIVE SURGERY IS UNDER DEVELOPMENT*. UNTIL THIS POLICY IS PROMULGATED, EXPENSES FOR THESE PROCEDURES MUST BE BORNE BY THE CF MEMBER


----------



## PuckChaser

I think my dream of flying is somewhat nearer!!! I think I'll wait a little while after my surgery on Wednesday to CT though.  ;D

Great news though, especially since the USAF and USN pilots are allowed to get it done.

Anyone with DWAN access that can let me know whether they are specific on what type of surgery you can get (PRK or LASIK) in REF A??? One thing about being on postdeployment leave, no cool DWAN access!!


----------



## ArmyGuy99

Yes it is true about the laser eye surgery, but there are restrictions on which surgery you can have and there is a wait period as well.  For anyone serving or wanting to enlist, who wants to be a pilot and has been waiting for this.  Please call your local Med Section, or the Recruiting centre. BEFORE doing anything, or spending thousands of dollars. 

We will be more than happy to discuss the new regulations with you.

Just wanted to get this out there 

Your Friendly Neighborhood Med Tech


----------



## justin.c

I apologize if this has been posted already, but certain types of surgery have been approved for aspiring pilots, who in the past did not meet the vision requirements

edit: yep, I'm an idiot this has been posted already, and a whole month late too.  Sorry guys

Effective 20 March 2008 the Chief of Air Staff endorsed the recommendation from the Aeromedical Policy & Standards Committee to approve laser refractive surgery for CF aircrew including pilots. 

 The following procedures have been approved: 

- WFG (Wavefront guided) or conventional PRK (Photorefractive Keratectomy) 
- WFG or conventional LASEK (Laser epithelial Keratomileusis) or Epi-LASIK (Epithelial LASIK) 
- WFG or conventional LASIK (Laser assisted in situ Keratomileusis) either with mechanical or femtosecond keratome. 

The following procedures are not approved: 

- RK (Radial Keratotomy) 
- Any corneal reshaping procedures 

In all cases, applicants and serving members must still meet the vision standards for CF aircrew. As the CF does not yet include laser refractive surgery in its spectrum of care, both the decision to undertake such surgery and the administrative arrangements are the responsibility of the applicant or CF member.


----------



## PuckChaser

Already posted, however the CANFORGEN didn't include the types of LASIK/PRK that are approved. Mods can probably combine this into the other thread for a one-stop shop on "Can I get laser eye surgery?" questions.


----------



## jzaidi1

All,

This is the news I've been waiting for since age 11!!  I'm 33 now but will do whatever it takes to become a pilot in the CF.  I'll go back to the CFRC and chat with them about how to move forward.

Thanks,
CPL Jay


----------



## Urban

I'm not able to verify this information, but this is what I found regarding the types of surgery accepted.

http://www.cadet-world.com/cwforums/showthread.php?p=775034

"6. Acceptable refractive surgery procedures for serving CF pilots are as follows: Wavefront Guided (WFG) Photorefractive Keratectomy (PRK), WFG surface ablation procedures such as LASEK and Epi-LASIK and WFG Laser Assisted In-Situ Keratomileusis (LASIK) using a femtosecond keratome.
7. Conventional (non WFG) refractive surgery and LASIK using a mechanical keratome are not recommended for pilots but may be acceptable for non-pilot aircrew."


----------



## aesop081

Note the key words in your quote........




			
				Urban said:
			
		

> "6. Acceptable refractive surgery procedures *for serving CF pilots * are as follows:


----------



## ArmyGuy99

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Note the key words in your quote........
> 
> "6. Acceptable refractive surgery *for serviing CF pilots are as follows:*



Gotta love it when only half the info is being circulated.  It is the same standard for pilot applicants.  Gotta read the whole CANFORGEN carefully, it's in there.



			
				Urban said:
			
		

> I'm not able to verify this information, but this is what I found regarding the types of surgery accepted.
> 
> http://www.cadet-world.com/cwforums/showthread.php?p=775034
> 
> "6. Acceptable refractive surgery procedures for serving CF pilots are as follows: Wavefront Guided (WFG) Photorefractive Keratectomy (PRK), WFG surface ablation procedures such as LASEK and Epi-LASIK and WFG Laser Assisted In-Situ Keratomileusis (LASIK) using a femtosecond keratome.
> 7. Conventional (non WFG) refractive surgery and LASIK using a mechanical keratome are not recommended for pilots but may be acceptable for non-pilot aircrew."



Consider the information verified, for the most part ( i'm at home and don't the the Regulations with me).  But as I said above please do not do anything ref laser eye surgery  until you have contacted your local recruiting center and spoken with them and the MED STAFF.  ( I think I'm starting to sound like a broken record, nor more posting on this subject for me, before I get a headache)


----------



## ark

jzaidi1 said:
			
		

> All,
> 
> This is the news I've been waiting for since age 11!!  I'm 33 now but will do whatever it takes to become a pilot in the CF.  I'll go back to the CFRC and chat with them about how to move forward.
> 
> Thanks,
> CPL Jay





> WASHINGTON (AP) -- A panel of medical advisers -- mostly eye doctors wearing glasses -- listened to tales of woe and wonder Friday from people who sought to get rid of their specs through LASIK surgery.
> 
> What was clear by day's end: The vast majority of people undergoing laser eye surgery benefit and are happy, but a small fraction, perhaps fewer than 1 percent, suffer serious, life-changing side effects: worse vision, painful dry eye, glare, inability to drive at night.
> 
> Advisers to the Food and Drug Administration heard about a dozen of those stories Friday -- including a father reading his son's suicide note -- and then concluded that today's warnings for would-be LASIK recipients should be made more clear.
> 
> Another lesson: Choose a surgeon carefully.



http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/04/25/lasik.surgery.ap/index.html

As the article says, chose your surgeon carefully and good luck.


----------



## PuckChaser

Yep, I definately had to weigh the pros and cons of getting it done. 1 week later its awesome, but I paid a pretty penny for it.

Word of advice? $199 an eye does not sound like a good investment, considering an eye exam on civvie street is 75  bucks.


----------



## Corey Darling

199 per eye?? thats very cheap. Here on the island, i think its around 2000$ for both. A few years ago it was 3 grand.

Im currently using Ortho-K contact lenses.  These were new to the airforce as of 2 years ago. They dont like them lol.  Ive had to have mine out for over 6 months now before eye testing this year.

2000 bucks for 2 sets of lenses  but completely reversable and safe   I can always do lasik down the road.


----------



## KingKikapu

I got Wavefront PRK done last August.  The recovery time for PRK was much longer than Lasik (1 week of hell and 4 months full recovery vs. 1-2days hell and a 1-2 weeks for full recovery).  For PRK, the first week was pure hell.  Don't expect to be doing anything.  That includes, reading, watching tv, or just plain looking.  You are seriously that disabled.  I had to go back for checkups for a total of 4 months before the vision tightened to better than 20/20.  That may sound like a rediculously long time, but I could see well enough to drive after 2 weeks.  I am VERY pleased with the results, but I want people to be realistic.  It is very expensive (mine was 3500$ for 2 eyes + checkups), you will be out of comission for some time (much less if you go the Lasik route), and there is some initial discomfort involved.  I chose PRK because it is a more robust surgery that is less prone to infection, and there is less chance of injury if you are very physically active (lasik leaves you with a flap that, if hit hard enough - I mean really hard - there is a small possibility that the flap could shift).  

The surgery itself lasted maybe 5 minutes tops (lasik 10-15 I believe).  It is a bit disorienting.  I even had an extreme reaction: ended up passing out, then puking my guts out when I woke up.  That is extremely rare by the way.  Apparently, my brain didn't like the sensory overload of getting zapped in the face with laser pulses.  You would think I hated the experience, but I would do it again in a hearbeat!  So quit being a baby and get 'er done  

And for the love of god, don't go cheap on your eyes! 199$ !?!?!  Why do I have images of Dr. Nick Riviera from the Simpsons....

"Hiya everybody!"


----------



## Chinchilla

Well it sure is about time this went thru, a well-needed change.


----------



## combatbuddha

I've done the research (civvy side) and have scratched the surface on military side and am considering having either Wavefront PRK or Wavefront LASIK surgery done to correct my vision. I have researched the hell out of it and feel confident that this is the right choice for me for work and pleasure.
 I understand that the CF still considers this elective and that authorization is required from the CoC before having this done. I also understand the carreer implications if things go south.
 What I am curious about is that I had heard rumours about a 6 month TCat that follows, with driving restrictions etc. Can anyone clarify this? The TCat is not a huge hiccup as according to the big crystal ball of uncertainty I am not scehduled for anything earth moving within the next year or so.
If anyone has any additional info that could be useful, please it on over.


----------



## PuckChaser

I recently had it done (2.5 months ago) and underwent Wavefront PRK. I spoke to a PA before leaving theatre, and was told a TCat was not required. I had my surgery done while I was on leave, and had about 4 weeks to heal before I was on duty. You are correct, there are driving restrictions. You will not be allowed to drive anything until you are cleared by an MO. I was ahead of the curve for a little bit, so I booked a 15 min medical at the CDU, got their paperwork filled out by the Focus Eye people, as well as having a letter drafted from FE stating my pre and current post op vision, using all those wierd medical acronyms. Doc asked if I had any night vision problems, or blurring, and signed me off with a chit. 

Your med cat will still reflect your old vision (mine was V4) until you complete a full medical. The CDU in Kingston was extremely helpful, as I assume PRK/Lasik is something that is happening fairly regularly now.


----------



## combatbuddha

Sweet
Thats what I was looking for PuckChaser


----------



## Nauticus

Hey everyone.

I apologize if this has been done (and I bet it has), but then my skills as a Forum searcher lack.

Quick background: I'm a 22 year old security worker who applied to the Forces as an armoured crewman about 2 months ago. Last Wednesday, I did the processing (Aptitude, Medical, Interview) successfully. However, I wear glasses only when I have to, because every pair of glasses I've worn have really been very uncomfortable on my ears/head around the ears. So, I've considered doing laser eye surgery. I can do it as early as Thursday, _however_...

During my searches, I've read debate on the Airforce's policy on corrected or assisted vision, but I'm curious on the Army's policy. I spoke to a recruiter about this same question, and they "think it's the same as the Airforce, with a 6 month probationary period" after the procedure, before which you cannot reapply.

And further, during my searches I read that the military is actually offering doctors to do the procedure. Why would there be a 6 month wait if you can do it while you're a member?

I might just be an idiot, and I apologize in advance if that's the case. Any help will be great. Thanks!


----------



## PuckChaser

There is time needed for your eyes to stablize, depending on the procedure you get done. 6 months is a little bit overboard, but aircrew requirements are a little more strict. The only army policy I've seen is a paragraph in the Driver Regulations which references Medical Directive 3-92. The MD states (paraphrased) that the vision has to be stable, no night vision problems, and not taking any drops (the steroid drops you take for 6 weeks after).

Since your medical is done, your category is already in the system, so this might effect your wait for enrollment. One of the recruiters that float around here might be able to be more clear.


----------



## Nauticus

Excellent. Simply *not* doing the surgery has come to mind, but I wouldn't mind dropping the money before training, because I feel I'd be a much better soldier.


----------



## combatbuddha

Just had mine done on July 18th.
I underwent the custom wavefront PRK as LASIK wasn't right for me. The first 4 days post surgery were the worst as the contact lens that they install for PRK got quite irritating. I could drive, legally, after 6 days. I took the antibiotic drops for one week, the steroid drops for 3 weeks and now use artificial tears whenever I find my eyes getting a dry feeling, especially at the end of the day. I am now, approximately 7 weeks later, in possession of 20/25 vision with no restrictions. I saw the MO and handed in my 4 week post op report and am now looking at my vision category dropping from a V3 to V1. After my next check-up in November I suspect the rating will be even higher.
Before the surgery I wrote a memo and received authorization from the CO and made an appointment with the MO to discuss any medical issues. It was that simple.
The hit to the pocketbook is worth it to me and is also tax deductable.


----------



## ArmyGuy99

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Since your medical is done, your category is already in the system, so this might effect your wait for enrollment. One of the recruiters that float around here might be able to be more clear.



Agreed, this will definately affect your wait for enrollment, as you will be delayed min 3 months.  Please contact the CFRC Med Staff where your file is and speak to them if you are thinking about doing this.


----------



## Nauticus

Just an update guys.

I spoke to another recruiter today and he informed me that there _is_ a six month wait after doing laser eye surgery before you can reapply. If you're already enrolled in the armed forces, there is a six month period that you are placed in the Temporary Medical category, after which you return to your normal category.


----------



## Wookilar

Your recruiter is right...if they are a little busy and you are a little lazy that is what will happen. You will be on a 6-month Temporary Category (T-Cat) *OR* until your vision stabilizes (which is decided by the surgeon that does it and the Medical Officer/Doctor that does your medical update).

They CAN (if they want) make you wait the 6-month period, but if your eyes stabilize in 1 month (mine took almost 2 months from LASIK) and are cleared as stabilized by the MO, there is no reason for the CFRC to hold your file....

But is is a risk. If the difference in vision category will affect your trade choices, my advice is to get it done, wait until they clear you (but don't sit on your bum, get the letters from the surgeon and the MO) and then continue in the process. If your vision category doesn't affect your trade choices and you want to get in as soon as possible, wait.


----------



## Nauticus

Thanks for the advice. I've already been waiting quite a while to get into the military, and so I think I'm just going to hold off until I get in. From there, it'll be on the backburner until the opportunity arises.


----------



## PuckChaser

If you already qualified medically for the trade you want, time between your BMQ and your next course might be the perfect opportunity to get it done. Depending on your trade choice, you could end up with a 6 month block of time where you are awaiting training, and as long as you have the money saved for it, go for it! I'd get my eyes done again in a heartbeat, my reasoning behind getting the surgery done was the same as yours.


----------



## Nauticus

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> If you already qualified medically for the trade you want, time between your BMQ and your next course might be the perfect opportunity to get it done. Depending on your trade choice, you could end up with a 6 month block of time where you are awaiting training, and as long as you have the money saved for it, go for it! I'd get my eyes done again in a heartbeat, my reasoning behind getting the surgery done was the same as yours.


That is an excellent idea! I applied as an armoured crewman, so I imagine I'd have to wait for Battle School anyway. And yeah, I'm done all of my processing, including my medical, and I passed them all.

I guess I'm just waiting for them to give me a call!


----------



## Nauticus

I'm discovering how difficult it is to get hold of _anybody_ at the recruiting offices in Vancouver. All week, I've been trying to 'touch bases' with them, and not one person has answered their telephone, or responded to a message. I imagine they're extremely busy.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Man I'm really racking up the questions eh?

Which laser eye surgery does the army accept? (and which do they not allow?)
Lasik, Lasik MD, PRK?
I can't remember which is which.
Thank you.


----------



## Blindspot

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> Man I'm really racking up the questions eh?
> 
> Which laser eye surgery does the army accept? (and which do they not allow?)
> Lasik, Lasik MD, PRK?
> I can't remember which is which.
> Thank you.



I had my eyes zapped a little over a year ago to meet combat trade vision requirements. The procedure I had was the lasik method. The lasik method has the advantage of faster and easier heal time. The disadvantage is the creation of a cornea flap and the fact that it's newer (and thus less tried) technology. My surgery was performed by the Bochner Eye Institute of Toronto and they made the process as comfortable as could possibly be. Before the surgery, I checked out the local Lasik MD and decided the high-volume, cookie-cutter treatment wasn't for me.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Ahh. I thought the LASIK was not allowed-something about if you get hit hard enough that little flap on your eye may detach?

WHat do you mean high-volume cookie cutter treatment?
How is the Lasik MD different from regular Lasik?

Also thanks for answering


----------



## Haggis

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> Ahh. I thought the LASIK was not allowed-something about if you get hit hard enough that little flap on your eye may detach?



Eight years later and never had a problem... and you know I don't back down from a scrap!


----------



## xmarcx

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> Ahh. I thought the LASIK was not allowed-something about if you get hit hard enough that little flap on your eye may detach?
> 
> WHat do you mean high-volume cookie cutter treatment?
> How is the Lasik MD different from regular Lasik?
> 
> Also thanks for answering



Lasik MD is a chain of medical providers that offer Lasik surgery. Their concept of ops is high volume, low priced lasery surgery - they're the company that is always advertising specials, $999 an eye, etc. They claim they can afford to bring the prices down through volume and efficient operation, also by owning their own equipment, rather than leasing specialized and higher end equipment that comes with high royalties and fees.

As a result, they are a lot cheaper, but don't offer the newest techniques, like custom / wavefront lasik, which generally speaking produces better outcomes, specifically in regards to night vision. The difference is basically generating a 3D model of your exact eyes and a correction tailored to that, rather than applying a generic correction formula. 

Of course, it costs about $6000 all in for the fancy stuff. I had it done in 2004 to get into the infantry, and despite being generally terrified that my eyeballs would pop open somehow, I've had no complications.


----------



## LuvsMud

Blindspot... ummm I take it the surgery was a success?   >


----------



## medicineman

You are allowed to have PRK or LASIK only - and there is a restiction on the type of LASIK procedure that's acceptable.  Unfortunately, I don't have the guidelines in front of me or a DND computer at the moment otherwise I'd fill in that blank.  Suffice to say, if you're joining and getting it done or are already in and getting it done, talk to your medical section to make sure you don't get suckered into something that will get you kicked to the curb.

MM


----------



## Bass ackwards

Question from a shooter on the topic of laser surgery:

For about the last ten years, any rifle with open sights (like my beloved old Winchester 94) has become useless to me. Glasses don't help at all. I can still shoot reasonably well with an aperture sight and have no problems at all with a scope, so what I'm asking is if anyone else has been in the same boat who has had the surgery -and did it make any difference with open-sight rifles ?

I really love the old 19th century rifles: Winchesters, Martini-Henrys, Spencers, etc -so I'd consider shelling out the bucks for the surgery if it meant I could go back to shooting them (beyond 25 yards).  

Apologies to Flawed Design if this is a hijack of the thread.


----------



## KingKikapu

Had PRK 1.5 years ago.  I now have better than 20/20, so I can't really complain.  Be prepared for a slow heal if you go PRK though.  It took me 3-4 months before vision was 100% sharp.  Was at 60% effectiveness by 1 week.


----------



## PuckChaser

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/72796.0.html Has the CANFORGEN posted about CF aircrew regulations.

I had Wavefront PRK, and experienced little to no loss of night vision. PRK is normally better I was told, because it doesn't leave a flap of the outer layer of the eye, which is the cause of "halos". Like KingKilapu said, it takes a little while to heal with PRK, but I'd do it again in a heartbeat. The MO certified me to drive SMP vehicles after 1 month post-op, and I had my med cat changed to V1 within 3 months when I was stable at better than 20/20 (20/15 right and 20/10 left).


----------



## Jarnhamar

Hummmm

So the CF allows Lasik AND PRK.

Lasik heals faster but there is that whole flap detaching scare. 
PRK heals a lot slower and is more painful BUT you retain better night vision?


----------



## PuckChaser

I can't speak on the night vision aspect of LASIK, however I did not notice a difference in my night vision after the PRK was done. PRK is also more expensive, but it was recommended to me by my eye surgeon as I am in a high impact profession and play contact sports.


----------



## medicineman

How odd - my other half is getting the PRK done instead of LASIK because it is the cheaper of the two where she went.

MM


----------



## KingKikapu

There are two big reasons why I went PRK.  First was that I was a borderline candidate for LASIK because the procedure requires a thicker cornea relative to PRK, so in that situation you go with the safer bet.  Secondly, I chose PRK because I moonlight as a construction worker and I, along with my optometrist, figured that the incredible amounts of dust present on job sites would lead to a higher chance of a flap infection.  Now I can't say how much creedence you should pay to that last bit as I have no idea how easy or difficult it is to infect a flap, but it's something to think about if you are concerned about such a thing and you happen to do work in some sort of dusty environment.....


----------



## Unglunk

Not that this remotely applies to me, but why would laser eye surgery matter before applying to be a pilot? As long as things went well and it had been over a year post surgery without any problems, what is the problem with it? I had laser surgery 5 years ago and am still 20/20 uncorrected as a result to this day. That doesn't make an ounce of sense. It should be based on your vision being 20/20 and STABLE.


----------



## Armymedic

Unglunk said:
			
		

> That doesn't make an ounce of sense.



As you will see, once in you are in, there is a lot of things that the CF does that will not make sense to you. There is usually a good reason, which may or may not become apparent to you as you get more experience.


----------



## xmarcx

Unglunk said:
			
		

> Not that this remotely applies to me, but why would laser eye surgery matter before applying to be a pilot? As long as things went well and it had been over a year post surgery without any problems, what is the problem with it? I had laser surgery 5 years ago and am still 20/20 uncorrected as a result to this day. That doesn't make an ounce of sense. It should be based on your vision being 20/20 and STABLE.



First off, big picture, the military is generally risk averse. The Air Force especially - training a pilot costs big money, and aircraft cost more. 30,000 feet in the air in a $30 million aircraft would be a bad time to discover an unattended side effect. As much as it may drive us low level types nuts, it's the duty of senior level commanders and managers to take all reasonable steps to protect the people and equipment of the Forces. 

Second, more specifically, the enduring concern with laser eye surgery, specifically LASIK, is that it compromises the integrity of the structure of the eye. Consider this analogy - if you were looking to buy a submarine to take to the bottom of the ocean, and you had the choice between a brand new, top of the line submarine, and another identical submarine....that someone had cut open,  tinkered with, then welded back together with a new welding technique that had never been tried on a submarine at that depth before - it would be an easy decision to make.


----------



## KingKikapu

More specifically, I believe one of the major concerns was with LASIK flaps dislodging "somehow" on high G maneuvers.  Either that or some susceptibility to deform easier than a normal eye.   I suppose the only thing holding a flap together with the eye is either a weak covalent bond, or some Hydrogen bond, so I guess it's feasible.  HIGHLY unlikely, but feasible.


----------



## dapaterson

warrior vegetable said:
			
		

> Second, more specifically, the enduring concern with laser eye surgery, specifically LASIK, is that it compromises the integrity of the structure of the eye. Consider this analogy - if you were looking to buy a submarine to take to the bottom of the ocean, and you had the choice between a brand new, top of the line submarine, and another identical submarine....that someone had cut open,  tinkered with, then welded back together with a new welding technique that had never been tried on a submarine at that depth before - it would be an easy decision to make.



...although, in a Canadian context, new vs used submarines is perhaps not the best example to use...


Given that these types of eye surgery are still relatively recent innovations, and long term epidemiological studies are only just beginning to be conducted (long-term being 10+ years), it may be a while before the CF relaxes certain aspects of the policy.  I'm not  a doctor, though, so don't be quoting "Some guy on the internet said..."


----------



## KingKikapu

In all honesty, the science is pretty easy.  Human eyes use a limited band, and the lasers used to correct them are orders of magnitude smaller in wavelength, making them incredibly accurate.  The only thing that could be improved at this stage is eye movement tracking sensors, but adding an adaptive optics package to the sensor suite seems like incredible overkill.

I would like to point out that numerous long term (10+ years) studies have been released showing LASIK and PRK to be safe and stable.  Waveguided LASIK/PRK have made the procedure even more accurate.  *More importantly, laser surgeries are orders of magnitude safer than wearing contacts.*


----------



## RubberTree

I spoke with Dr. Lin in Vancouver about the flap dislodgement issue as I've been thinking about surgery for a while. He stated that during his practice (and he is one of the pioneers of Laser eye surgery in North America so its a long practice) he has never actually seen a flap dislodge. He has read cases about this happening but the accidents that caused the dislodgment were very severe and the eyes were already damaged beyond repair.


----------



## KingKikapu

To be honest, the thought of ejecting with LASIK flaps is not very appealing, but I think I would have bigger worries if that ever happened.

Also, I got PRK so it wouldn't be an issue.


----------



## xmarcx

All science aside, regardless of any evidence either way, try war gaming the problem from the point of view of the senior officer in charge of the decision.

There rarely seems to be a shortage of people applying for the pilot trade. The military has been comfortable for decades taking people with no prior experience and training them 100% to their standards, so qualifications and experience is a non issue. If you have a seemingly limitless pool of candidates with natural, surgery free 20/20 vision, with no possible risk for future surgery related complications, and then a number of candidates who do present this risk, even if it is just an urban legend or a theoretical possibility, from a risk management point of view, you're going to take the natural vision candidates. 

It's the same kind of thinking that ends up in troops wearing their helmets in a milcot on the ranges - it seems like a gay rule to the individual soldier, but someone up the chain of command is just exercising his duty of care to the maximum extent. 

Personally, I'd hate to be a high ranking Air Force type the day Lt. Flyboy's eyeballs explode pulling a tight turn...


----------



## The Bread Guy

Reviving necropost to share latest (MODS:  pls let me know if this is better as a stand-alone) - it appears the CF is taking the first steps toward setting up its own surgery program:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/81725/post-786998.html#msg786998


----------



## medicineman

The issues with pilots were multifactorial.  First off, there wasn't any good evidence at the time that changes in pressure combined with 6 or 7 G's weren't going to cause issues with the integrity of the eyeball after surgery had been done.  Secondly, a  study of US and UK tactical helicopter pilots showed that there was potential problem with fine colour perception while wearing night vision goggles in pilots that had laser corrections.  As you might imagine, this could have rather awful consequenses with a Chinook with half a company of troops aboard if the pilot had problems distinguishing the geography in front of him while flying nap of the earth.  As it turned out, it was a non-issue, but it had to be looked at.

As for the person that thought badly of the policy, well, it's a volunteer military, with limited numbers of spaces, so we can be picky and choosy as to who gets in and does what - we aren't here to cater to your needs or wants, but to ours and ours alone.

MM


----------



## old medic

It's no problem at all milnews.ca.
Better to have these updated, rather than old information all over that turns up in searches.


----------



## nickinguelph

I was originally classified as a V4, and went ahead with Wave Front Lasik...now 7 weeks after the surgery, I have 20/15 vision, and mild halos around bright lights at night (which is fading).  My optometrist has signed off on the stability of my eyes and I have submitted my form to have my vision re-evaluated for my recruitment into AEC.
What is the process for this? As one PA told me that it could take 4 to 5 days, but then an PA assistant told me it will take 3-4 weeks.  
Thanks very much!


----------



## old medic

As with anything that has to be sent away, plan for worst case scenario.   
The file and the new information will be sent off for approval. Beyond that, hard to say on the time. 
Are they sitting there just waiting to read the next file, or are they already off on Christmas vacation?
Impossible for us to say.


----------



## nickinguelph

old medic said:
			
		

> As with anything that has to be sent away, plan for worst case scenario.
> The file and the new information will be sent off for approval. Beyond that, hard to say on the time.
> Are they sitting there just waiting to read the next file, or are they already off on Christmas vacation?
> Impossible for us to say.



Thanks very much!  That is what I am expecting to happen, oh well, April BMOQ here I come 
Cheers!


----------



## Smirnoff123

This is great news for me  ;D


----------



## combatbuddha

We all have seen what going for the lowest bidder has cost the CF over the years.
4000 is alot of money but it was worth it to me. Heck, the LDA, whenever it gets here will be paying for it and it is income tax deductable. I should see about 1000 back.


----------



## KingKikapu

agreed.  Your vision shouldn't be something you skimp on.


----------



## Smirnoff123

Wearing normal glasses has been approved as well, unless im misunderstanding what the recruiter said.


----------



## aesop081

Smirnoff123 said:
			
		

> Wearing normal glasses has been approved as well, unless im misunderstanding what the recruiter said.



Thats because the vision standard has changed so that some people who are V2 can apply.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Judging by the "what the CF is buying this month" looking for a contractor to conduct eye correction this is just the beginning.  Must have looked at the Americans and what they are accomplishing.  About time too.  Maybe there might be hope for me to be able to smash two of my four eyes to death with a hammer down the road.  Would make DC work safer on ship for those of us afflicted by poor eyesight.  Will wait and see, but it is obvious the worm has turned for the better with the attitude of the proceedure.


----------



## joeforts

I applied to be infantry and was just told today that I was a V4 so I have to pick a non combat trade. I'm un sure of the trade I would like but I had my heart set on infantry, which has me thinking I should get laser eye surgery. Would the army pay for the laser eye surgery? Would it be hard for me to switch trades afterwards? And how long would it take me to make that switch. I've looked at a few threads here and haven't really found a direct answer to this. Any info would be great about switching trades or laser eye surgery.


----------



## MikeL

The CF won't pay for LASIK/PRK.

If you really want Infantry, get the LASIK done, tell the CFRC an they may make you wait a certain period of time before you can do another medical and have the eye vision retested, etc.


----------



## joeforts

Would it be easier to pick a non combat trade, do my bmq and then get the LASIK and switch trades? Can you switch trades?


----------



## Michael OLeary

Regular or Reserve?

How long are you willing to be in the non-combat arms trade before getting your move to infantry?

Are you sure you want to go into a trade you don't want, with all the commitments that come with it, while you wait?


----------



## MikeL

joeforts said:
			
		

> Would it be easier to pick a non combat trade, do my bmq and then get the LASIK and switch trades? Can you switch trades?



Yes you can apply for an OT; but I can't tell you(since I don't know) if it's a guarenteed thing or how long it would take to go through, etc.



If all you want is Infantry; don't waste anyone's time by going into a trade you have no intention of staying in.  Just get LASIK done; than back to the CFRC an inform them.


Either way you are going to be waiting; so would you rather spend that time training for a trade you don't want or continue doing what you're doing already untill the time comes?


----------



## joeforts

Regular, I'm not sure how much lasik costs but I'm sure its pretty expensive, I owe the banks about 17,000, so I'm kinda backed into a corner and getting the news today that I'm a V4 sure is a kick in the nuts on top of that.

I'd be willing to wait, depending on the trade....


----------



## MikeL

joeforts said:
			
		

> Regular, I'm not sure how much lasik costs but I'm sure its pretty expensive, I owe the banks about 17,000, so I'm kinda backed into a corner and getting the news today that I'm a V4 sure is a kick in the nuts on top of that.
> 
> I'd be willing to wait, depending on the trade....



Does the CFRC know about this debt? An say that you can still come in even though you have financial/personal issues at this time?


If you can't afford LASIK at this time, what makes you think you can afford it after Basic? You won't exactly be making a lot of cash as a recruit an that money would be better spent paying off debt IMO.


----------



## joeforts

They don't, I didn't think it was relevant. I wouldn't mind getting it done, it just seems like it would take a few more months for me to get into the army and I don't think I can wait much longer.


----------



## joeforts

My real question would be could I switch trade in my first year? I'm gonna get the lasik done no matter what.


----------



## Run away gun

Yes you can switch trades in your first year, however it will be a little hard to convince them with a V4 eyesight on record why you want a trade that requires V3 vision. Good luck with that one.


----------



## George Wallace

joeforts said:
			
		

> My real question would be could I switch trade in my first year? I'm gonna get the lasik done no matter what.



Not likely.

Time for you to do some reading as to what has already been said about Laser eye surgery and you will find out what you haven't asked yet.  You'll also find all your answers about changing Trades or Trade Reassignment if you do a SEARCH.  You may also want to read about the Recruiting Process, BMQ, SQ, some of the Trades Training and a heck of a lot more.


----------



## PuckChaser

Run away gun said:
			
		

> Yes you can switch trades in your first year, however it will be a little hard to convince them with a V4 eyesight on record why you want a trade that requires V3 vision. Good luck with that one.



Its doubtful he can even start the process with V4. As soon as the powers that be see the MedCat, doors will close to V3 trades.

joeforts: When you get LASIK, expect to be on a Temporary Medical Category from anywhere from 3 to 6 months after the surgery. The Forces don't take chances after LVC, it took me 2 months to get the vision required and medical certification to even drive, and another 2 months to get my medical category changed from V4 to V1.


----------



## Sonnyjim

If you really want this job then you should wait and not go into something that you won't be happy in. Life is too short, and the time it takes to wait for eye surgery is much less than putting years of training into a trade to turn your thoughts to something you had already wanted in the first place. Also getting laser eye surgery for any trade no matter what will help you, especially on the ranges and in just in everyday military life. My eyes were pretty bad and now they are 20/15 each and 20/10 both together. The tv screen is fuzzy because my eyes are soo good and it's annoying if I'm not watching HD or Plasma. My shooting scores went up on the range (49/49, mainly because I wasn't wearing glasses with water/sweat/ dirt getting on them or getting knocked around) and when I'm out in the field it's easier to spot things and my night vision is superb. I am glad I had the procedure done before, waited for what I wanted, and I am very happy that I was patient. As well, if you go to some places and you are already in the military, in some cases just the fact it's for applying to the military, you will get a 500$-1000$ discount. (Young/Eglinton Lasik). Just some food for thought.


----------



## schart28

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1195579
Canadian soldiers in line for laser eye surgery
Defence department aims to better equip troops for combat

Tom Blackwell, National Post  
Published: Monday, January 19, 2009

Canada's military is moving toward surgically enhancing the vision of its soldiers, sailors and airmen, hoping to better equip them for combat and other demanding jobs -- without the hassle of eyeglasses or contact lenses.

The Department of National Defence recently issued a tender for contractors to develop a detailed laser eye surgery program, noting that corrected vision is particularly important in certain military trades.

The operation would give troops in the field an advantage over having to wear spectacles or contacts, said Dr. Walter Delpero, who was the Canadian Forces' chief of opthalmology until he retired from military service in 1996.

"The big question is, what happens if you lose your corrective vision," said Dr. Delpero, who is now in private practice and teaches at the University of Ottawa.

"How would you manage without your appliance? You've hurt yourself, you've fallen, you've been involved in a scuffle, whatever the case is, and you lost your contacts. How would you be able to take care of yourself, take care of your crew?"

The navy is particularly interested in the treatment, as a splash of seawater over a sailor's glasses can significantly reduce his or her visibility, he said.

In fact, most other NATO countries have already started offering the surgery, said the opthalmologist.

Dr. Delpero said Canada has taken its time studying the procedure and its side effects, a "prudent" approach designed to ensure the operation would do no harm to troops.

A National Defence spokeswoman stressed that the department has made no final decisions on whether to offer the surgery, which carries a price tag for civilians in the range of $3,000 to $6,000, and would not comment on the project.

However, the tender documents suggested a decision had already been made, following a 2005 recommendation by the Forces' surgeon-general, and approval by two key internal bodies: the armed forces council and standard-of-care committee.

"It was felt that refractive eye surgery would elevate certain serving members to an enhanced operationally fit status, eliminating some of the drawbacks that corrective eye wear has in an operational setting," said the posting.

The tender calls for development of a program that would cover everything from choosing appropriate candidates to dealing with any complications or liability issues.

It is unclear whether the procedure would be performed only on those in combat-type roles, or offered more widely.

Dr. Delpero said it would likely be rolled out first to those at the "sharp end of the stick" -- troops most likely to be operating in the field.

But if it turns out instead to be a perquisite available to any member of the Forces, that would be a questionable use of money, suggested one retired army officer and military critic.

"If this is to be done for operational reasons, why not? If this is going to give someone bionic vision to kill a Taliban a hundred miles away, do it," said Michel Drapeau, an Ottawa lawyer and retired infantry colonel. "But if it's going to be a discretionary benefit, where anybody (can get it) ... I have a problem with that."

Laser-eye refractive surgery is most commonly used to correct vision problems like near-sightedness, far-sightedness and astigmatism: distorted vision at any distance.

Surgeons use a laser to make permanent changes to the shape of the cornea, which plays a major role in the eye's ability to focus. 

Complications, including infection, night glare, under- or over-correction and scarring, are known to occur in less than one per cent of cases, said Dr. Delpero, who does not perform the surgery himself.

The U.S. Army launched its "Warfighter Refractive Eye Surgery Program" about seven years ago, seeing it as a way to improve "combat readiness," Colonel William Madigan, an army spokesman, was quoted as saying in 2002. 

"If your glasses steam up or fall off, you've become a liability," Col. Madigan told The Washington Post at the time. "You're no longer part of the solution - you're part of the problem."

Still, the program is voluntary for soldiers who have less than perfect vision, and is not an attempt to create an "Uebermensch," or superman, Col. Madigan said.


----------



## Michael OLeary

> "If this is to be done for operational reasons, why not? *If this is going to give someone bionic vision to kill a Taliban a hundred miles away, do it*," said Michel Drapeau, an Ottawa lawyer and retired infantry colonel. "But if it's going to be a discretionary benefit, where anybody (can get it) ... I have a problem with that."



Uh, yeah, nice preparation for that interview.    :


----------



## chris_log

Is there anyone here close enough to the project to give us an idea of when the CF is planning to implement this and to whom (yes I read the article, no I don't trust any media story related to the CF). I'm someone who suffers from crummy vision, and subsidised surgery would be...well....awesome.


----------



## George Wallace

Michael O`Leary said:
			
		

> Uh, yeah, nice preparation for that interview.    :



"If this is to be done for operational reasons, why not? If this is going to give someone bionic vision to kill a Taliban a hundred miles away, do it," said Michel Drapeau, an Ottawa lawyer and retired infantry colonel. "But if it's going to be a discretionary benefit, where anybody [can get it] ... I have a problem with that."


I wonder if he though about the old days, way before his time, when glasses were first invented.  If it were a discretionary benefit, where anybody in the military could be fitted with glasses.........would he have a problem with that?


----------



## KingKikapu

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I wonder if he though about the old days, way before his time, when glasses were first invented.  If it were a discretionary benefit, where anybody in the military could be fitted with glasses.........would he have a problem with that?



My guess is in those days the common foot soldier was more or less cannon fodder.  Forming square or line isn't my idea of a smart battle plan, and if honour and tradition dictates the weapon equivalent of fisticuffs, then maybe the glasses were the least of their concerns.  Besides, the comparison isn't entirely accurate because back then there was no alternative for correcting your vision.  Now we have three methods to correct vision, and some are not only cheaper than others, but they also have shorter recovery times as well.


----------



## dapaterson

Piper said:
			
		

> Is there anyone here close enough to the project to give us an idea of when the CF is planning to implement this and to whom (yes I read the article, no I don't trust any media story related to the CF). I'm someone who suffers from crummy vision, and subsidised surgery would be...well....awesome.



Development is ongoing.  If you can read AFC RoDs, it was presented in April 2008.  My personal take is that it will not be for everyone - if you meet the standard for your trade there's no need for the CF to pay to upgrade your vision; if you've fallen below the trade requirement and are occupationally qualified it might be a worthwhile investment for DND/CF to make.

But it is still under development, so take anything with a grain of salt.  A large one.


----------



## xo31@711ret

:   Weeeeell,... don't that just figure..... 
I retired after 24+years as a medic out of Gagetown in 06. I was always a strong V3; almost a V4. ( Doing some reserves class A now in Quebec). I've been trying saving up the 5 grand or more that it"ll probably cost me once we head back to NB after niner-dom finishes her 20 regs.


----------



## George Wallace

KingKikapu said:
			
		

> My guess is in those days the common foot soldier was more or less cannon fodder.  Forming square or line isn't my idea of a smart battle plan, and if honour and tradition dictates the weapon equivalent of fisticuffs, then maybe the glasses were the least of their concerns.  Besides, the comparison isn't entirely accurate because back then there was no alternative for correcting your vision.  Now we have three methods to correct vision, and some are not only cheaper than others, but they also have shorter recovery times as well.



Kiljoy.  You're just no fun.     :-[


----------



## PuckChaser

dapaterson said:
			
		

> My personal take is that it will not be for everyone - if you meet the standard for your trade there's no need for the CF to pay to upgrade your vision; if you've fallen below the trade requirement and are occupationally qualified it might be a worthwhile investment for DND/CF to make.



I would have to say that would be a horrible position to take. The cost of glasses and prescription inserts is probably significantly more than the short term cost of LVC and an optometrist visit every year afterwards. I personally had 3 sets of glasses, 1 set of inserts for BEW and 1 set of gas mask inserts gone through, and I was only entitled for eyewear at CF expense for 2 years before my LVC. Unless the CF gets a special government "discount" of +$5000 on top of the normal cost to civvie land, it'll be a money saver in the long run. This being said, it can be open to abuse for people joining and then getting out right after LVC, and would have to have strict caveats as to when the surgery can be performed.


----------



## KingKikapu

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I would have to say that would be a horrible position to take. The cost of glasses and prescription inserts is probably significantly more than the short term cost of LVC and an optometrist visit every year afterwards. I personally had 3 sets of glasses, 1 set of inserts for BEW and 1 set of gas mask inserts gone through, and I was only entitled for eyewear at CF expense for 2 years before my LVC. Unless the CF gets a special government "discount" of +$5000 on top of the normal cost to civvie land, it'll be a money saver in the long run. This being said, it can be open to abuse for people joining and then getting out right after LVC, and would have to have strict caveats as to when the surgery can be performed.


Well, that would be true if we assumed that eyes don't change after surgery (which they unfortunately do), and that the CF will still have these people for the long term.  If they're only in for another 5 years, I do not expect them to make their money back.  Otherwise I agree with what you're saying.

Mr. Killjoy.  :-[


----------



## Blackadder1916

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> . . .  The cost of glasses and prescription inserts is probably significantly more than the short term cost of LVC and an optometrist visit every year afterwards. . . .



And your assumption is probably incorrect.

Though I'm no longer serving and have not had anything to do with a cost analysis of optical supplies for the military in over twenty years, I'll wade in with a quick guesstimate.

Assumptions:  (make changes to the numbers where you know actual figures or guess better than me)
Total number of pers eligible for optical benefits -  75,000
Pers needing glasses - 30,000  (40 to 60 percent is usually quoted as percentage of population with some vision deficit)
Pers who could benefit from vision corrective surgery - 18,000 (picked a figure of 60 percent of glasses wearers out of my ***)

Average cost of individual benefit or procedure: (guesses but they are based on some knowledge of the industry)
Current CF optical benefit - $485 every two years
Cost of vision corrective surgery - $3500

Total annual cost for vision correction
by glasses
$7,275,000 (30,000 x $485  = $14,550,000 every two years)

by surgery
$63,000,000  (18,000 x $3500 in year one to establish a base of currently serving pers with corrected vision)
$6,300,000 (each year following due to pers replacement rate of 10 percent - 1800 pers)
$2,900,000 (for optical supplies for 12,000 pers who did not have surgery)


----------



## George Wallace

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> And your assumption is probably incorrect.
> 
> Though I'm no longer serving and have not had anything to do with a cost analysis of optical supplies for the military in over twenty years, I'll wade in with a quick guesstimate.
> 
> Assumptions:  (make changes to the numbers where you know actual figures or guess better than me)
> Total number of pers eligible for optical benefits -  75,000
> Pers needing glasses - 30,000  (40 to 60 percent is usually quoted as percentage of population with some vision deficit)
> Pers who could benefit from vision corrective surgery - 18,000 (picked a figure of 60 percent of glasses wearers out of my ***)
> 
> Average cost of individual benefit or procedure: (guesses but they are based on some knowledge of the industry)
> Current CF optical benefit - $485 every two years
> Cost of vision corrective surgery - $3500
> 
> Total annual cost for vision correction
> by glasses
> $7,275,000 (30,000 x $485  = $14,550,000 every two years)
> 
> by surgery
> $63,000,000  (18,000 x $3500 in year one to establish a base of currently serving pers with corrected vision)
> $6,300,000 (each year following due to pers replacement rate of 10 percent - 1800 pers)
> $2,900,000 (for optical supplies for 12,000 pers who did not have surgery)




Question for you:

Why did you only calculate the prescription glasses group for two years, and not multiply it by a minimum of 13 times (to cover 25 yrs service); while you calculated the surgery and follow-ups for each year following surgery?

$14,550,000 every two years X  13 (min.) = $189,150,000.00


----------



## dapaterson

He was doing annualize costs:

Glasses at $7.3M per year, surgery plus glasses at $9.2M per year, with an additional $63M one-time cost for everyone now serving.

Thus, roughly $1.9M per year more to move to surgery, as not everyone is suitable for surgery, and some would still require collective lenses after surgery.


----------



## Michael OLeary

I do wonder what will be the fate of those who fall into that small percentage of "complications".

LASIK Complications - Statistics



> More than one million patients undergo the LASIK procedure in the United States each year. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) reports that LASIK eye surgery complications occur in 1 to 5 percent of cases. According to the FDA’s LASIK surgery statistics:
> 
> * Glare and sensitivity to light affect 1.7 percent of LASIK patients.
> * Visual fluctuations occur in 2.6 percent of LASIK patients.
> * Halos around light sources are experienced by 3.5 percent of patients.
> * *About 3 percent of patients report vision worse than before LASIK.*



If this is to be a voluntary procedure, what happens if someone ends up with vision that actually makes them ineligible for their trade?  Would that be a service related "injury"?  Would they be entitled to compensation?


----------



## dapaterson

The RFP is for program development.  Issues identified include "Identifying best practices for handling complications and identifying potential liability issues".

Still a lot of development work to be done for policy before we can begin zapping anybody at Crown expense...


----------



## PuckChaser

Michael O`Leary said:
			
		

> I do wonder what will be the fate of those who fall into that small percentage of "complications".
> 
> LASIK Complications - Statistics
> 
> If this is to be a voluntary procedure, what happens if someone ends up with vision that actually makes them ineligible for their trade?  Would that be a service related "injury"?  Would they be entitled to compensation?



It is already an at-your-own risk procedure, members who want LASIK need a memo signed by their CO stating they accept responsibility should they become unfit for service after the surgery and any associated costs with the surgery are at their own expense. I don't see this policy changing much, other than the surgery being covered by DND medical plans.


----------



## dapaterson

The second DND provides you a service they take on liability for its successful completion.  Hence one of the reasons for treading softly on this one.


----------



## Tharris

I just had the procedure done a week today and it was well worth the cost (especially since I was V5).  Besides a 90 day wait before the powers that be will allow me to train, so it all seems pretty straightforward.  For me it was simply a question of how much I wanted to join up.  

T.


----------



## Klinkaroo

In a post before you said that you were able to send in your paperwork after 7 weeks. Can someone please give me a semi-formal answer, because I heard anything between 3-6 months before I can even get the form sent in. If I understand from you, once the optometrist says I'm stable and good to go I can get the form signed, sent and my med cat changed in a between 5 days and month long waiting period...

BTW Faster I get that done, faster I can get my CT to AES OP moving so I really would like to know what is the fastest I can get this stuff done at.


----------



## nickinguelph

Klinkaroo said:
			
		

> In a post before you said that you were able to send in your paperwork after 7 weeks. Can someone please give me a semi-formal answer, because I heard anything between 3-6 months before I can even get the form sent in. If I understand from you, once the optometrist says I'm stable and good to go I can get the form signed, sent and my med cat changed in a between 5 days and month long waiting period...
> 
> BTW Faster I get that done, faster I can get my CT to AES OP moving so I really would like to know what is the fastest I can get this stuff done at.



Well, unfortunately the original information that was given to me was not for Air Crew Status.  The waiting period after laser eye surgery for Aircrew is 6 months, and Medical will not even consider it sooner.
Originally I was under the assumption that I could have my vision re-evaluated within 3 months, and it can be done just not for Aircrew, if your doctor signs off on your eyes.  I went through the whole process only to have Medical turn it down stating that not enough time had passed.


----------



## knownothing89

Hi. I've been reading that part of training involves exposure to eye-irritating gas (cs gas?) and that troopers will often rub their eyes, etc. I've also read that some people undergo LASIK procedures before or after enrollment in the military. Before I apply to ROTP (I hope i get in..), I'm planning on getting laser eyes surgery to correct my horrible vision (my worst eye is -5.50  :-\; recruiters told me I might only qualify as V4) I was just wondering if having a corneal flap (which I've also read never fully 'heals') and being exposed to rugged environments and/or eye irritants is advised against. Thanks for any helpful answers.

-some wannabe


----------



## Scott

Sounds more like a question for your optometrist and also one for the recruiters.

FYI, there are other options available http://www.tlcvision.com/what_prk.fxml that offer surgeries with no flaps created. It boils down to personal preference and how much you are willing to invest in your eyes. FYI, you only get two of them and if you frig them up you might never get 'em back. To me, spending on laser is a no brainer, being frivolous is stupid.


----------



## Toad

Well I got PRK (boxing- too much risk of a flap) in November 08, and January 09..I'll say my eyes are both 20/20 now..but the risk of scarring is slightly higher, the pain after the surgery lasts about 5-8 days instead of 4-5 hours, and your vision improves over months, not a week. As well, you'll be on drops for a couple of months/eye just in case that sort of thing bothers you..and for me it was cheaper than the lasik by about 600 dollars overall.

Personally, I think it was well worth the money I paid, and worth the shitty recovery. Scott is right though, talk with your optometrist, and talk with the office that does the lasik/prk, to see if you can get the surgery.


----------



## MikeL

I got LASIK an did the gas hut a few months later, no problems. But rubbing your eyes after the gas hut is a bad idea for everyone. Theres a lot of people in the Military(ours and other nations)who've gotten LASIK an PRK done an as far as I know there been no issues, atleast nothing I've heard/read. If there was a good chance it would mess you up during Military service I don't think the Military would allow people to get it done.

As far as I know my cornea flap is completly sealed back to my eyeball. Probably be something to ask the optromitrist, an ask the question post LASIK to make sure your eyes are good to go, etc.


----------



## Rinker

Well this question hasn't seemed to be asked before. I start my bmq august for the trade I want. My eyes are V3, but I would really like to not have to wear glasses. I was told it will be fine for what I am doing at this stage. But I would like to get my eyes zapped once in, without seriously affecting my training/unit. I have no problem waiting a year or two, but how long of a break would I need to take from training to get my eyes fixed. And would they let me once in the infantry being through basic and all of that other stuff.


----------



## bdave

Is anyone doing pkr or everyone does LASIK?
Wouldn't pkr be better?


----------



## Rinker

If I got it done I would do custom wavefront PRK, because the eye would have much more structural intregrity. However your chances of getting 20/20 would not be as high.


----------



## RCR Grunt

Rinker said:
			
		

> Well this question hasn't seemed to be asked before. I start my bmq august for the trade I want. My eyes are V3, but I would really like to not have to wear glasses. I was told it will be fine for what I am doing at this stage. But I would like to get my eyes zapped once in, without seriously affecting my training/unit. I have no problem waiting a year or two, but how long of a break would I need to take from training to get my eyes fixed. And would they let me once in the infantry being through basic and all of that other stuff.



Schedule the actual op for the start of your summer or Christmas leave, you'll need about 3 weeks to heal to the point of complete functionality.  I did mine right before deploying on 3-06.  I had 3 weeks to heal up, and my 2 month checkup came during my HLTA. 

I had Wavefront PRK done and ended up getting better than 20/20 in the end.

DO NOT go cheapo and get the kind where your eye is sliced.

Think of your eye like an orange, the only part that ever really heals is the peel.  If you cut the fruit, that incision will be there forever.  A strong impact, say from pugil stick fighting, firing the Carl G, or mop bucket jousting can reopen the incision and may cause you to lose vision in that eye.  Most places will recommend the PRK prcedures for anyone who plays sports or is in law enforcement / military.

Wavefront PRK is fired through your lense, the "peel" of your eye is removed first, but the "fruit" is never sliced.  The "peel" heals over in about a week.  There will be alot of checkups done in the first month.  Be prepared for that.


----------



## PMedMoe

Also, don't forget that you will be on a PCAT for a period of time after your surgery, until everything checks out okay.  I don't believe it's very limiting.  It's posted here somewhere.


----------



## goldenhamster

Just my 2 cents:  I had wavefront PRK 2 months ago, and I asked the eye surgeon about advantage/disadvantage of LASIK vs PRK.  Lasik heals more quickly and people can get 20/20 almost right away; however the flaps that are created during LASIK never fully reattach to the cornea.   Some rigorous activities might jar/break the flap  .  He said that a corneal transplant may be needed to rectify that situation.  For that reason, the safety of PRK is higher  than LASIK.
However, PRK takes longer time to heal and to actually reach 20/20 acuity.  In my own experience, there are a lot of discomfort during the first 3 days, but they are bearable.  Day # 2 is the worst  :nod:  During that period, my eyes were very sensitive to light that I had to double-cover the window in my room with dark-colored posters and stayed in there when I awake.  The pain was gone after 3 days. I got to 20/25 and 20/30 after a week, but improved to 20/20 after 1 month.  There was also a lot of fluctuation in my eyesight during that 1st month, e.g. reduced night vision, seeing "double", etc.  Just make sure not to apply the freezing drop too much during that first 3 days, because it can delay the healing.


----------



## goldenhamster

Rinker said:
			
		

> If I got it done I would do custom wavefront PRK, because the eye would have much more structural integrity. However your chances of getting 20/20 would not be as high.



Rinker, I asked this question to my surgeon too.  He said that the chances of getting 20/20 does not depend on the procedures, but rather of your best visual acuity before the surgery.  Say if someone has the best corrected acuity of 20/40 before the surgery, that may be the best acuity reached after the surgery as well.  He also said that it is possible to get better than 20/40, but not guaranteed.


----------



## RCR Grunt

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Also, don't forget that you will be on a PCAT for a period of time after your surgery, until everything checks out okay.  I don't believe it's very limiting.  It's posted here somewhere.



But that's only if you tell them about it.


----------



## PMedMoe

RCR Grunt said:
			
		

> But that's only if you tell them about it.



And then something happens to your eye and you're screwed.    IIRC, the PCAT is usually only about three months or even less.


----------



## Rinker

Well that sums everything up quite nicely. The orange peel analogy was genius. And 3 months isn't that long if you get it right before Christmas break. Thanks.


----------



## medicineman

RCR Grunt said:
			
		

> But that's only if you tell them about it.



Think someone might notice the change in your Vision Cat on your next medical  .  

MM


----------



## George Wallace

The absence of glasses is usually a dead give away.


----------



## medicineman

I don't believe much in miracles  - karma on the other hand...

From QR&O 34.13 : (2) An officer or non-commissioned member who has received medical care while absent from his base or unit shall report to the medical officer immediately on return.

From HS Instruction 4020-01: Deployment

7. Once identified for deployment, a CF member shall not undertake Laser Eye Surgery without the consent of their CO as it could interfere with operational requirements. Personnel who are postoperative from laser eye surgery, must have completed all follow-up appointments and obtained medical clearance prior to the commencement of pre-deployment training.


MM


----------



## EreZer

It would be the Air Force that contols that. Even admitting you are a griffon pilot, you still accord to the Air Force.

To add to the subject, does anyone apperceive whether humans with glasses can become pilots? Same affair with the eye surgury. Is it an accustomed procedure?




________________
Advertising link removed


----------



## medicineman

EreZer said:
			
		

> To add to the subject, does anyone apperceive whether humans with glasses can become pilots? Same affair with the eye surgury. Is it an accustomed procedure?



As opposed to other primates/mammals requiring visual correction?

As to the latter question, for pilots, it's a recent innovation in the CF - something that may have been perceived earlier in this thread and one or two others.

MM


----------



## dapaterson

I've met a few pilots where I'd question whether their family lineage is _Homo Sapiens_, so it's not that unreasonable a question...


----------



## medicineman

But they were at least humanOID correct? 

MM


----------



## Pea

The last documentation I saw on laser eye surgery stated you no longer were put on a PCAT after the procedure. You just needed to make sure to get your medical done as soon as possible to update your vision category. However the point MM made above about members identified for deployment is a good one. I'm in the process of trying to get my surgery approved before I head over this spring on the next roto out of here. Would make my life a heck of a lot easier not worrying about ballistic inserts. Mine have been broken in training once already.


----------



## fuscia

"IntraLASIK - bladeless, all laser LASIK"
Source: online info site. looks legitimate. good for overview.
http://www.docshop.com/education/vision/refractive/intralasik/

"NASA approves all-laser LASIK for astronauts"
Source: The European Society of Cataract and Refractive Surgeons
http://www.escrs.org/Publications/Eurotimes/08Feb/NASAapprovesalllaser.pdf
- all-laser LASIK is also approved for US military pilots
- I figure, since NASA and US Air Force and Navy approved this type of LASIK for their pilots and astronauts, Canada military won't be too far behind

"Intrastromal Ablation" (Flapless laser eye surgery - not PRK)
Source: blog of some guy who claims to be a retired ophthalmic consultant. good for overview
http://irvaronsjournal.blogspot.com/2008/10/intrastromal-ablation-technology-whose.html
- Personally, i'm really excited about this possibility if it works. No LASIK flaps. No PRK healing issues. 

"Another Approach to Intrastromal Ablation - Femtosecond Lenticule Extraction (FLEx®)"
Source: a random online site. looks legitimate. good for general overview.
http://stanford.wellsphere.com/general-medicine-article/another-approach-to-intrastromal-ablation/702637
- Some say Instrastromal Ablation won't work. That this is an alternative. From browsing online, this procedure looks closer to being useable than the Intrastromal Ablation.


----------



## ajp

I had a successful procedure last month.  I reported it on my last visit to the Base Hospital and all they did was make a note on my record.  I am going for my 1 month check up Saturday.  I have a physical some time this year (waiting lists) and thats all there was to it.  My CoC was aware I was going and I was back to work on the Monday after the procedure (on a Thursday).  I followed the donts, as in No Ball Hocket the Friday after.....


----------



## 097004610

I just went for my enrollment medical and because I had lasik surgery 10 years ago I have to get my vision tested by a Optometrist because I couldn't read the last line of letters.  I even brought with me an eye test I did from 4 months ago stating I had perfect vision and no night vision troubles and they are still making me get the form filled out.  Why is lasik such a bad thing with the Forces?


----------



## AC 011

mariomike said:
			
		

> How did Ned Flanders put it? "It's great for a while, but at the ten year mark, your eyes fall out!"



I know someone who had a complete reversal less than a year after the surgery.  So, after paying for the procedure, less than a year later - right back at square one.  Pretty rare, I expect, but it's just something else to consider.


----------



## 097004610

Well, thankfully my eyes haven't fallen out!!  I just got back from ym eye appontment and my vision is fine. 20/25 without correction and 20/20 with correction.  My eye itself is also perfect.  Although, apparantly I have a mole on the back of my eyeball. Nothing to worry about but interesting to know.  didn't think a person would get a mole there, but doc said about 18% of people do.  Anyway, faxed back the form all filled out.  Now I just need to schedule my interview.


----------



## medicineman

NO Hopeful said:
			
		

> I just went for my enrollment medical and because I had lasik surgery 10 years ago I have to get my vision tested by a Optometrist because I couldn't read the last line of letters.  I even brought with me an eye test I did from 4 months ago stating I had perfect vision and no night vision troubles and they are still making me get the form filled out.  Why is lasik such a bad thing with the Forces?



It's like any other surgeries you've had - you need a letter from the specialist comfirming how things went short and long term.  As well, for laser surgery, they need to confirm what procedure was done as some forms have been deemed incompatible with military service.

MM


----------



## 097004610

Thankfully everything went well.  I understand about the whole process and concerns with laser surgery.  I have gone through it all before with previous employment screening processes.  I am sure I will be ok as a Nursing Officer needs a minimum V4.  I don't know where 20/25 uncorrected and 20/20 corrected puts me but hopefully it is good enough.


----------



## medicineman

NO Hopeful said:
			
		

> Thankfully everything went well.  I understand about the whole process and concerns with laser surgery.  I have gone through it all before with previous employment screening processes.  I am sure I will be ok as a Nursing Officer needs a minimum V4.  I don't know where 20/25 uncorrected and 20/20 corrected puts me but hopefully it is good enough.


V1-V2 , so no issue.


----------



## Lando

Hmm, I have my Lasik in a couple of weeks and i can't wait. No worries what so ever...
V1 will feel alot better then V4


----------



## Antoine

Hi All,

I went shopping for laser eye surgery. Following my corneas thickness measurement  by ultra sound, the optometrist told me that I qualified for LASIK without problem and he sent my results to his affiliated laser eye surgery company. However, the surgeon of another company told me that my corneas thickness was borderline for LASIK. However, PRK can be done without problem on my eyes. Then I went back to the optometrist and he told me that depending on the newest equipments, they can perform LASIK on thinner corneas.

Moral of the story: Get your eyes tested by different surgeons and/or optometrists before making your choice.


----------



## Lando

I had that happen to me but then i had a consultation at the actual Laser Surgery Clinic and they were able to give me an accurate/in depth look at my eyes. I had the choice of LASIK or PRK and i went LASIK just for the sheer fact of that the healing process is faster. Either way is great and either way works.
And so far 5 days in from having the surgery 20/20 never felt so good


----------



## Antoine

In my case, the PRK suggestion was given at a Laser Surgery Clinic by the surgeon himself and the Lasik suggestion was given by an optometrist affiliated to a Laser Eye Surgery Clinic on the claim that they use the state of the art Lasik equipments.

An experienced surgeon but old school that sticks with an older technology that he masters to perfection is it better than a younger surgeon using the newest technology that helps him to gather more informations on your eyes and allows him to be more precise during the operation. 
This type of surgery seems to relay heavily on the tools so what is the limitation: the surgeon experiences or the technology in used?

I understand that no one here is allowed to give medical advices, fair enough. However, I was wondering if anyone has found Laser Eye Surgery Clinics in Vancouver that are using the latest PRK surgery equipments? Using internet, some clinics give the list of their equipments and others don't.

Regards,


----------



## Lando

Antoine,

I myself went with LASIK MD and so far their great! (Don't expect to pay the $450 a eye...)
My long-time optometrist recommended Pacific Laser Eye Centre
and iv heard alright things about Lasik Eye Centers


----------



## AlexD.

Lando said:
			
		

> Antoine,
> 
> I myself went with LASIK MD and so far their great! (Don't expect to pay the $450 a eye...)
> My long-time optometrist recommended Pacific Laser Eye Centre
> and iv heard alright things about Lasik Eye Centers



I went with LASIK MD here in Montreal as well in February. It was a little expensive, but completely worth it and I am glad I postponed my enrollment to get the surgery.  The recovery period is only 3 months as well before you can apply!


----------



## AndyRad

and to complete my  spiel on the surgery...i had it completed on the 16th dec.... best choice ive made. great vision now. itsa hard to really figure after so many years with glasses or contacts what i should be able to see at how far of a distance. in other words my vision is 20/20 and i would recommend it to every one. as a side not the facility that did mine. gimbel in edmonton has a 18month free enhancement clause. so if its not perfect they fix it at no extra cost. not bad IMHO


----------



## Antoine

Happy that the surgery went well for all of you.

I'll go for PRK surgery on the 7Th of January. I've chosen the old school experienced surgeon !

Then I'll conquer the world as a MARS officer


----------



## RubberTree

Antoine...who did you choose to go with? I had my eyes done in Vancouver this past year and did extensive research before selecting a surgeon. Interestingly, my surgeon ended up having a hit put on him by his partner...at least he'll see it coming.
Apparently Pacific Laser is the best in the business in North America. Their prices reflect this (too much for me unfortunately) but their reputation is unparalleled.


----------



## Antoine

I have chosen pacific laser eye center, if anyone would like more information, feel free to PM me.

Cheers,


----------



## Rinker

I was pondering on when to get the surgery and how I would go about getting it whilst in PAT because I don't wanna go in the field with glasses on or prescription inserts as they hinder me when it rains or at the slightest amount physical activity.  But, Problem A, I have no idea when my course starts (BIQ) anywhere from feb to may and I am currently in Wainwright. And don't know who I would go to to find out about the procedure of having surgery done while on "duty". Becuase I had to take all my leave at once so I can't go on leave while I heal. The only thing I have gunnin for me right now is I have the money. If anyone has been in a posistion similar to me and got through the process let me know the answers to some of the above questions. 

And on a minor note, does anyone know if the CF allows intacs? nvm they don't


----------



## MikeL

Have you tried talking to your Chain of Command?  


I believe to start the process you would have to write a memo with your request and your CO will approve/deny it. Also, I believe somewhere in this thread it says if they still do the TCAT or not post surgery, or you could always ask at the MIR.


----------



## Lando

I don't know to much about all that but i do in fact know that when you have the surgery they want you to rest for 3 Months. Basically they don't want you as a risk during those 3 Months... The time while the flap heals over. I have to wait 3 Months before i can continue on with my recruitment.


----------



## Rinker

Yea I talked to one of the sergeants once, he didn't really know. He also told me it was a 6 month wait so there was no way I was going to wait that long for after the procedure. And I hopped back onto army.ca on my christmas break and found out it could be as low as 3 months. So when I go  back I will just write a memo and whatever happens, happens. On the plus side it will give me time to get fit for course and figure out this small shin splint problem. But that is another matter for another day.


----------



## Antoine

I think it has been said previously but what the CFRC told me:

Following Lasik surgery: minimum wait of 3 months.

Following PRK surgery: minimum wait of 6 months.

I don`t know if the wait can be shorter if you are healing faster than normal.


----------



## AlexD.

Rinker said:
			
		

> Yea I talked to one of the sergeants once, he didn't really know. He also told me it was a 6 month wait so there was no way I was going to wait that long for after the procedure. And I hopped back onto army.ca on my christmas break and found out it could be as low as 3 months. So when I go  back I will just write a memo and whatever happens, happens. On the plus side it will give me time to get fit for course and figure out this small shin splint problem. But that is another matter for another day.



When I got LASIK, I was told by a recruiter that the minimum wait time was 6 months before I could apply. 6 months later, after undergoing the application process, I was informed by the Sgt who did my medical interview that it was only 3 months and that it was 6 months for the Pilot trade. It was pretty frustrating to find out that I could have applied 3 months earlier and maybe already been in BMQ, especially since I had never mentioned anything about being a pilot, hah. Oh well, what can you do.


----------



## GoCanada

I had LASIK custom wavefront done september 18th. I then had my medical appointment on the 24th, passed with CV1. On a side note, I applied for ROTP so i'm not entering the CF until about June (provided I get accepted ). The officer in charge of the medical said if I was applying for immediate entry for reserves I should have waited 3 months before doing my medical,and up to 6 if it was for regs. Just my 2 cents 

On a side note, definitely do your research about which institution is best, I would base my choice upon how many successful surgeries have been performed by the eye surgeon. I chose Lasik MD in Hamilton, as they have a good reputation, average costs, but amazing post-surgery care to ensure everything is going ok.


----------



## PMedMoe

GoCanada said:
			
		

> I had LASIK custom wavefront done september 18th. I then had my medical appointment on the 24th, passed with *CV1*.


Ummm, you do know that CV is Colour Vision, right?  Somehow, I doubt LASIK will help with that.


----------



## Antoine

To people in the process of getting laser eye surgery: 

Don't forget to pick up the form (at your CFRC) that the ophthalmologist who operated your eyes will need to fill up only three months and one day after the surgery (PRK in my case) date.


----------



## AndyRad

Update time...... Got off the phone on Tuesday with the Med WO in Calgary and i was told the following (still in the pre-merit list life):

1) No reliance on medicated eye drops
2) All follow up appointments with your surgeon/optometrist to be completed
3) Must wait a minimum of 90 days from the date of surgery before they want the letter of confirmation from the Surgeon on what procedure was done

Now that I've said all of that, i have completed my 1 week and one month follow up. Currently 20/20 in my left eye and 20/25 in my right eye (it always has been the weak eye. Next appointment is scheduled for 2 days after the 90 day wait time. Now if everything goes as planned they accept that form and i can go down to get my medical re-done and be ready right when they drop all the new F/Y jobs.

Good luck to any and all looking at Eye Surgery!!


----------



## Antoine

Thanks for the info, and good luck to you too on your next vision test, hope you'll make in the trade you are looking for.

I was wondering, what do you mean by



> 1) No reliance on medicated eye drops



Still working on my English


----------



## AndyRad

After your surgery you are prescribed steroid drops to help with the healing of your eyes. PRK requires the drops for up to 6 months. Lasik for me involved drops for less than ten days.


----------



## Antoine

In my case (PRK), I need to put drop in my eyes for 3 months. However, by "no reliance", you mean that you have to be done with your eyes medications before getting in CF.


----------



## bran

Just wondering if anyone in the infantry has had any problems doing the job with Lasik or PRK?


----------



## AndyRad

@ Antoine...im not up to snuff on the verbatim of their rules but i would assume that no drops means just that...Any Medtechs here with a view on it?


----------



## medicineman

It means no more steroids and no regular (read all the time) need for tears - the odd artificial tears here and there aren't a big worry.

MM


----------



## George Wallace

A guy I was just on course with had laser surgery done on his eyes fifteen years ago.  He is now wearing glasses again.  He is in his early Thirties, so this is not a case of "old age".  This brings up the question as to how long one can expect to go without glasses after having laser eye surgery?  It apparently is not for the remainder of your life.


----------



## Teeps74

Honestly, if I could afford it, and get just one year without glasses, for me it would be worth every single penny.  I have worn glasses since I was twelve. I hate my glasses, and can not wear contacts (shape of eyeball leads then to shift to the back of my skull, and it sucks to dig them out from there).


----------



## Proud_AF_Pilots_Girl

It depends what form of laser you get because there are so many out there.. Lasik has alot of issues with eyes not focusing properly after an extended period of time.. PRK is one of the best procedures


----------



## Antoine

Your eyes were reset to the state they were before your myopia started following a successful surgery and healing. Then, your myopia might come back slowly after 5 to 10 years due to your genetic and/or your life habits (bad lighting when reading, lot of computer work, and so on....).

However, Optometrist and Ophthalmologist are reluctant to talk about it as it might be difficult to predict. But, they made a point to tell me that they can't do anything to fix the hyperopia (farsightedness) that comes with aging.

Disclaimer: This is my :2c:, I am not an optometrist neither an ophthalmologist.


----------



## Griffon

Just a clarification that the farsightedness that occurs due to aging is called "presbyopia" as opposed to hyperopia.  There is a difference, as presbyopia is caused by the stiffening of the lens in your eye as you get older.  You are right however that there is nothing that they can do to surgically correct it (yet), whereas hyperopia can be corrected through laser surgery.   As for how long the surgery will be effective, Antoine pretty much hit the nail on the head.  If your eyesight is continually degrading, it will continue to do so post-op.  The surgery is best for those people whose eyes stabilized pre-surgery (i.e. their prescription hasn't changed in the last few years).  So far, I have had fantastic results - I underwent Intralase-LASIK in 2008, and now have 20/15 vision in both eyes with no signs (yet ) of any degradation.


----------



## galgal23

i have my medical check very soon and i've had lasik about a week ago..should i tell them i've had lasik and reschedule my medical 3 months in advance or go to medical and then tell them there when they ask?


----------



## Cat

galgal23 said:
			
		

> i have my medical check very soon and i've had lasik about a week ago..should i tell them i've had lasik and reschedule my medical 3 months in advance or go to medical and then tell them there when they ask?



tell them now, and they"ll tell you what's appropriate to do. No point wasting their time by showing up if you can't take your medical


----------



## galgal23

Cat said:
			
		

> tell them now, and they"ll tell you what's appropriate to do. No point wasting their time by showing up if you can't take your medical



are you sure? I was thinking getting the hearing test etc out of the way and then coming back in 3 months just to get the vision checked..Wouldn't that be easier? only I'm not sure that's allowed..


----------



## PMedMoe

galgal23 said:
			
		

> are you sure? I was thinking getting the hearing test etc out of the way and then coming back in 3 months just to get the vision checked..Wouldn't that be easier? only I'm not sure that's allowed..



Call them.  Tell them.  Why should they do two medicals for you if they don't have to?


----------



## Frozen

This seems to be a really confusing topic, are pilots in the CF allowed to have LAISK?  I've heard so many people saying yes and no that I think I'm more confused then when I starting looking up all this stuff.  ??? Like on the DND site, it seems to say you can have LASIK, but most people on this forum seem to say you can't. http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/commun/ml-fe/article-eng.asp?id=4322  I was also told by a CF recruiter (online) that it is allowed.  My eyes are -2.5 if that matters at all.

I won't be trying to join for around 2-4 years, depending on if I get into Athabasca University or not this year.  The program I want to take seems pretty easy so if I work a lot I think I can get it done quickly.  ;D Because I have a bit of time, if I'm allowed to get LASIK when should I get it?  I'm still young and I'm a little worried that my eyes will get worse so would it be possible to get LASIK *after* I do basic training and stuff like that?  Is the CF willing to pay for it?

Thanks!


----------



## Michael OLeary

There a requite a few discussions here on LASIK and other laser eyes surgery for pilots.  The search function is a useful tool, as are Google site-specific searches:

site:army.ca laser eye pilot

site:army.ca lasik pilot

You can even used the search page to limit the age of returned threads to find the most recent discussions on the topics if your choice.


----------



## PegcityNavy

I had lasik done and i have 20/20 vision, however as in my case and the majority of cases with Lasik your night vision is compromised. I have halo's around light sources at night and although for civilian life it is fine in the case of landing and flying at night time it would be a serious issue.


----------



## DexOlesa

You can have certain procedures (there is a list. ask your medical section). No the CF will not pay for it. If you are trying to be a pilot you would have to have it done before you apply (min 6 months before actually) As you need to pass the medical (which is the whole reason you want to have the procedure). My father had Lasik this year. 20/20 No Halo's no dryness no nothing. If your eyes have not stabilized (ie. your perscription has changed recently and keeps changing ever year or two) then yes it will continue to change and you will probably have to do Lasik again when you sight deteriorates again.


----------



## Frozen

I did a bit more searching again (thanks Michael for the tip on only searching this site, that helped a lot!), and I seem to have found a bit more of info and a few more things to ask.

I can't believe that I missed it, but it seems that I'll be too young to get LASIK when I plan to apply...  Chances are that it won't last at all.  Nighttime doesn't seem to be a much of a issue with Wavefront-guided LASIK, only for normal LASIK.

It seems that what type of aircraft I fly doesn't get picked until about a year into the program.  Would it be possible to get LASIK half way in the training?  If the case it didn't help that much, couldn't they put me in a helicopter?  That way I could apply a little earlier.

I might try to take a internship with Lockheed or another aircraft company while doing my degree and take my time.  It seems that I can't rush in like I hoped.


----------



## Zoomie

Frozen said:
			
		

> Would it be possible to get LASIK half way in the training?  If the case it didn't help that much, couldn't they put me in a helicopter?



No - CF medical entry standards are uniform for the Pilot MOSID.  You cannot begin training without meeting the requirements.


----------



## crosswind

Hey everyone,

I'm a longtime forum reader, and a new poster because I couldn't find some information I was looking for (I tried to search through the forums but came up with nothing for this specific question).  Sorry in advance if there's another thread I should post this in.

I'm hoping to apply for pilot and have done a lot of research into the vision standards (have spoken with a CF Flight Surgeon from DRDC) but was still unable to get one question answered.

Does anybody know if laser eye surgery will prevent a pilot from flying high g-force maneuvers? (fighter jets, aerobatics, etc.)  The flight surgeon never got back to me with an answer to this, and I've heard mixed answers from other sources.  

Any help is greatly appreciated.  Thanks


----------



## PuckChaser

The CANFORGEN is on this website that lists the types of Laser Eye surgery approved for aircrew. Aircrew = pilots. Its even in this subforum I think.


----------



## crosswind

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> The CANFORGEN is on this website that lists the types of Laser Eye surgery approved for aircrew. Aircrew = pilots. Its even in this subforum I think.



Thanks PuckChaser, I'm aware of the types of surgery that are approved.  My question was just if there are any restrictions imposed on aircrew who have undergone a procedure.  Over on the avcanada forums someone posted saying that CF aircrew who had undergone refractive surgery were restricted from certain aircraft because the effects of high g-force loading on eyes was not well known.  I was just wondering if there was any merit to their claims.


----------



## GreenIsGood

According to my optometrist, hyperopia and astigmatism are much harder to correct that myopia and, in some cases, cannot be corrected.

Here's a LVC center in Vancouver that publishes statistics on their success rate: http://www.pacific-laser.com/our-statistics/


----------



## PanaEng

Can anyone comment or post a link related to policy or practice pertaining to laser eye surgery in the CF? More specifically, what the industry calls "mono-vision" - for those who do not know, this refers to the procedure where one eye is corrected to 20/20 and the less dominant eye is corrected to some degree but also compensate for presbyopia.

cheers


----------



## medicineman

http://hr.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/health-sante/pd/pol/4020-01-eng.asp

That is up to date as of Jan 2010.  I don't recall anything in there about mono-vision - it does outline can do and can't do procedures and restrictions, etc.  

If it's a fairly new thing, my advice is to talk to your MO about it.

MM


----------



## PanaEng

medicineman said:
			
		

> http://hr.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/health-sante/pd/pol/4020-01-eng.asp
> That is up to date as of Jan 2010.  I don't recall anything in there about mono-vision - it does outline can do and can't do procedures and restrictions, etc.
> If it's a fairly new thing, my advice is to talk to your MO about it.



Thanks MM, 
Is there an external (internet) source for that file? I won't be near my DWAN machine for a while.

cheers,
Frank


----------



## medicineman

Yeah - I don't have it with me, but google CF Health Services Policy and Direction or CFHS Instruction 4020-01 and you should be able to find it.

MM


----------



## Occam

PanaEng said:
			
		

> Can anyone comment or post a link related to policy or practice pertaining to laser eye surgery in the CF? More specifically, what the industry calls "mono-vision" - for those who do not know, this refers to the procedure where one eye is corrected to 20/20 and the less dominant eye is corrected to some degree but also compensate for presbyopia.
> 
> cheers



Interesting...after my last eye exam, I mentioned that I was toying with the idea of Lasik or PRK.  I was surprised to learn that I'm not a candidate.  I've been nearsighted since my teens, and within the last couple of years I can no longer read while wearing my glasses, as I always could.  I tried bifocals, and couldn't get used to them.  The ophthalmologist mentioned that while I wasn't a candidate for both eyes, he suggested getting only one done.  I thought he was dipping into the pupil dilation stuff at the time...but I guess not!


----------



## BeakedBruce

I was searching around and couldn't find an answer to my questions. SO here it is. My plan in life is to join the infantry(Regular) and take all the cool courses I can (paratrooper, sniper, etc) Maybe when I have a few tours under my belt and I am older I would like to try out for CSOR or maybe even JTF2 Special Operation Assaulter. Would having laser eye surgery restrict me from anything at all? Thanks in advance.


----------



## ModlrMike

Clearance diver and fighter pilot.


----------



## JB 11 11

Im no expert, but can you back that up?(not calling you out...just curious) CANFORGEN? I've read a few posts on here regarding Lasik requirements for Pilot. I also can't imagine why having gone through Lasik would disqualify someone for Clearance Diver? What about Combat Diver? I would suspect the two would have similar requirements and restrictions.

EDIT: I found the CANFORGEN

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/72796.0

Pilots seem to be allowed to undergo laser eye surgery now. No mention of Clearance diver, but the links to trades that allow and do not allow refractive surgery does not work anymore. Not sure where to find that list.


----------



## ModlrMike

I was being facetious. He asked if he would be restricted from "anything at all".

There's 80 bazillion pages on vision questions here. I'm not going to draw this out any longer than it needs to be. Suffice to say that Clearance Diver and fighter pilot are opposite ends of the same spectrum.


----------



## JB 11 11

Ahh... sorry. I missed that


----------



## old medic

Just for the record, the requirements are different.

Mininum medical categories for vision, colour vision and hearing are different for those. 

Combat Engineer (Combat diver)  
323225
task statement 
http://www.forces.gc.ca/health-sante/pd/cfp-pfc-154/AN-Dapp4-ta041-eng.asp


Clearance diver 
212225
task statement
http://www.forces.gc.ca/health-sante/pd/cfp-pfc-154/AN-Dapp4-ta341-342-eng.asp


----------



## JB 11 11

While Im aware that Combat Divers are part of the Combat Engineers, I would have thought that the course/trade would have had another set of requirements all its own. Given how tough it is said to be to become a Combat Diver, this comes as a bit of surprise.


----------



## Maverick585

Does anyone know if you are eligible for sick leave if you have laser eye surgery?

I have read the leave manual and the QR&O's and they conflict. Is laser eye surgery considered "elective"? I have a signed memo from my CO saying I can get it done. Most of the operations that I have had done while in the AF are considered "elective" but made me more productive (better solider/ not sure how to describe it). 

Gum grafts and had my septum fixed. I received a week for each of those. 

I'm going to speak with the Flt Doc next week, but I was wondering if anyone else has sick leave approved? 

I apologize if it was already answered in this thread, but it starts in 2004 and goes on for pages, I skimmed most of it and searched and didn't find anything about about laser eye surgery and leave.

Cheers,

Mac


----------



## medicineman

Last I heard, you still have to take annual...gum grafts, I can see if your gums aren't healthy, neither are you, and nose, if it's causing a problem, then it's no longer cosmetic.  Fact of the matter is, until it's covered by at least one provincial health care plan, they're not going to pay for it or give you leave for it.  On the bright side, your meds are covered now.

MM


----------



## GreenIsGood

George Wallace said:
			
		

> A guy I was just on course with had laser surgery done on his eyes fifteen years ago.  He is now wearing glasses again.  He is in his early Thirties, so this is not a case of "old age".  This brings up the question as to how long one can expect to go without glasses after having laser eye surgery?  It apparently is not for the remainder of your life.



He was supposed to wait until his vision had stabilized before having corrective eye surgery. My ophthalmologist told me I should wait until my prescription remains unchanged for at least 2 years.

My understanding is that laser eye surgery simply reshapes the cornea and does not correct the condition that causes your vision to worsen nor does it correct the condition that causes you to need reading glasses (which is caused by the hardening of the cornea.)

I suggest anyone thinking of getting laser corrective eye surgery, go visit their ophthalmologist first, and discuss it with them. If the ophthalmologist is not associated with any laser eye surgery clinic, they should be able to give you an unbiased opinion.


----------



## Pusser

I had laser eye surgery (PRK) done almost 12 years ago.  I went from V4 (almost V5) to V1.  I'm still V1, but now use glasses occasionally to sharpen things up (i.e. driving at night).  The fact of the matter is that your eyes change over time and even if you've never worn glasses in life up to now, does not mean that you won't need them eventually.  Laser eye surgery does not stop time.  Your eyes are still subject to change and you should never consider it a permanent thing.  Another thing to keep in mind is that laser eye surgery can correct myopia, hyperopia, but NOT presbyopia.  In other words, if you're near-sighted or far-sighted, laser eye surgery can help, but if you need bifocals, you're SOL.


----------



## medicineman

My wife had it done and still needs reading glasses - some people also regress, it's not uncommon.  Like was said, you should wait until things settle down and are stable before doing the procedure.

MM


----------



## qwiks

My eyes aren't perfect.  I had laser correction surgery, but I'm still color blind.  Is there any piloting occupation available to me?


----------



## lethalLemon

You can't pilot an aircraft, especially ones containing passengers other than yourself, if you're colour blind.


----------



## AGD

qwiks said:
			
		

> My eyes aren't perfect.  I had laser correction surgery, but I'm still color blind.  Is there any piloting occupation available to me?



The answer is yes, believe it or not. You can still get a restricted CPL; the restrictions being that you can only fly during the day and that you can't go NORDO at a controlled airport.

As for the CF, you can be a pilot with "minor defects" in colour vision, whatever that means. Looks like you'd also have to pass something called a "Farnsworth Panel D-15 test." Probably best to speak to an ophthalmologist about that one.

Here are some links:

Transport Canada Medical Standards: http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/regserv/cars/part4-standards-t42402-1412.htm

CFP 154: http://www.forces.gc.ca/health-sante/pd/cfp-pfc-154/default-eng.asp


----------



## aesop081

qwiks said:
			
		

> Is there any piloting occupation available to me?



No.


----------



## medicineman

:+1:

Actually, having reviewed the CFP 154, you need to be a CV2 - which means a small amount of error is allowed in the Ishihara Plates but you pass the Farnsworth Test.    

MM


----------



## Globemaster77

Hello, I am interested in becoming a pilot (a lot of people are I know). I have searched the forces website about my problem and came out blank. I'm in a trippy situation. I'm not sure if you guys get a lot of questions along these lines, so I apologize in advance if there was... I noticed many people here get anal sometimes. Anyway, I am currently 16, almost 17. Everything is looking good except for my left eye. My left eye is below pilot standard of V2,  therefore making me unsuitable unless I recieve laser eye surgery. My birthday is on the 27th of August, 1995. Even if I recieve LASIK or PRK procedures, I was informed that there is a minimum 6 months recovery period for all applicants. I know that all applicantinons must be in by mid January of the next year. Would that mean that I wouldn't be able to apply right after the surgery?
(For example:
Surgery date: August 27th 2012
Date I become elligible: Febuary 27th 2013, meaning I cannot apply on the following year and must apply in 2014?)

Or is there a loophole around that somehow? I've heard that the medic must decide that I am fully healed during the pilot medical or I will not be meeting the requirements. I'm certain that I am not the only one who was in this situation. (Late Birthdays) Or can I under go surgery after being accepted? (During RMC years during summer break). Any info would be appreciated. Thanks!


----------



## AGD

Globemaster77 said:
			
		

> Hello, I am interested in becoming a pilot (a lot of people are I know). I have searched the forces website about my problem and came out blank. I'm in a trippy situation. I'm not sure if you guys get a lot of questions along these lines, so I apologize in advance if there was... I noticed many people here get anal sometimes. Anyway, I am currently 16, almost 17. Everything is looking good except for my left eye. My left eye is below pilot standard of V2,  therefore making me unsuitable unless I recieve laser eye surgery. My birthday is on the 27th of August, 1995. Even if I recieve LASIK or PRK procedures, I was informed that there is a minimum 6 months recovery period for all applicants. I know that all applicantinons must be in by mid January of the next year. Would that mean that I wouldn't be able to apply right after the surgery?
> (For example:
> Surgery date: August 27th 2012
> Date I become elligible: Febuary 27th 2013, meaning I cannot apply on the following year and must apply in 2014?)
> 
> Or is there a loophole around that somehow? I've heard that the medic must decide that I am fully healed during the pilot medical or I will not be meeting the requirements. I'm certain that I am not the only one who was in this situation. (Late Birthdays) Or can I under go surgery after being accepted? (During RMC years during summer break). Any info would be appreciated. Thanks!



-If previous years are any indication, you have until November if you're applying for pilot, not January
-No, they won't let you get zapped during summer break. They wouldn't hire you for pilot unless you've already had the procedure. 
-Why would you want to get zapped on your birthday?? Just wondering!
-I'm pretty sure they'll still process your application and let you write the CFAT, but they won't do the medical or send you to ASC until the six months are up. That's just a guess. I'm not familiar with anyone who has attempted this, nor do I work at the recruiting centre...
-Would waiting until 2014 really be so bad? I can't see into the future, but I'm pretty sure the Canadian Forces will still be here then.

In any case, don't go to one of those places that advertises $490/eye or any of those places that advertise on radio or TV where the eye surgeon sounds more like a game show host than a doctor. :nod:

EDIT: Also, how come you applied for the glider pilot course this year? You know you're eligible for the power pilot course, right?


----------



## Globemaster77

I am aware of the power program. But I joined a bit late and new standards say level 4 minimum. I am 3.
In addition, I'm planning to get "zapped" on my birthday as it is ASAP. So I would have as much time as possible to heal before applying. Not a very good plan I know lol.


----------



## MKos

I would suggest going to your local recruiting centre, and asking to speak with one or the head medical officer on duty their , explain your situation and see what they have to tell you. When I inquired about laser eye (I'm not applying for Pilot, but my vision is poor) the med officer told me that even sometimes they do not condone or support certain laser eye procedures, because they do not support them, it may not correct what is needed to be fixed, I know it is a little confusing I found it a little overwhelming.


Sorry to ramble, point is, inquire at your local centre, either calling (i suggest in person) and/or speaking to your eye surgeon!


GOOD LUCK!


----------



## medicineman

If it says 6 months, they mean 6 months - no loophole.  You'll need a letter from your surgeon as well attesting to your vision and how well you've healed.

MM


----------



## ModlrMike

medicineman said:
			
		

> If it says 6 months, they mean 6 months - no loophole.  You'll need a letter from your surgeon as well attesting to your vision and how well you've healed.
> 
> MM



In addition to the above, most reputable surgeons won't touch you until your vision stabilizes sometime in your 20s.


----------



## Globemaster77

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> In addition to the above, most reputable surgeons won't touch you until your vision stabilizes sometime in your 20s.



Again, my worries exactly. Some say it is unsafe to take the surgery until your vision completely stabilizes.


----------



## Trick

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> In addition to the above, most reputable surgeons won't touch you until your vision stabilizes sometime in your 20s.



Yeah was going to say this. You don't want to go to some hack, and a responsible doctor should tell you to wait until around 24-26ish.


----------



## tanman89

I am not currently going through for a trade that required an air crew medical but have went through a similar situation.

I am 22 and went to LasikMD and they said to me that sometimes after surgery there is a chance of your eyes regressing (obviously the chance increases the worse your eyes are) but they are able to go in after and "re-tweak " the eyes back to 20/20 and eventually it will stay (they told me the cost of them to even touch the eye after is roughly 1000$ which makes the life time warrenty seem very valueable )

When i asked the warrant at the RC what would happen she commented that i would need to be 3 months of stable vision and recieve a letter from lasik md stating such. Now i remind you this is STABLE i had a friend of mind who at 2-2.5 months during his recovery his eyes got better which reset the clock on the 3 months and ultimately set his application back roughly 8 months untill he could say he was 3 months of stable vision. 

This is just my experiance and i hope it has helped somewhat, as always i suggest you contacting the RC and finding out for yourself.


----------



## QORvanweert

Trick said:
			
		

> Yeah was going to say this. You don't want to go to some hack, and a responsible doctor should tell you to wait until around 24-26ish.



That is complete misinformation.

I had LasikWaveFront done 4 years ago at 21 and still see 20/16 in each eye... without any astigmatism. My original prescription was -2.5 and 90 ast. for each eye. Everyone's eyes are unique and the only person who can confirm you are ready for the surgery is the Dr. I had mine done at Yonge-Eglinton Laser Eye Clinic by Dr. Rootman. It was a phenomenal experience and I couldn't be happier with the outcome. My vision is literally perfect both day and night. My gf had her eyes done two years ago using the same technology at a clinic in BC. Same great result. Intralase is WORTH the money. Aside from that, 99% of the info on the internet is crap written by people who aren't qualified to comment. Talk to a Dr.

PS. Stay far far far away from LasikMD. Everyone I have met who had their eyes done at a LasikMD outlet has suffered very negative complications. They are only interested in the money and push shitty procedures with shitty technology. Stay far far away from them.

Edited to add postscript.


----------



## tanman89

I said:
			
		

> That is complete misinformation.
> 
> I had LasikWaveFront done 4 years ago at 21 and still see 20/16 in each eye... without any astigmatism. My original prescription was -2.5 and 90 ast. for each eye. Everyone's eyes are unique and the only person who can confirm you are ready for the surgery is the Dr. I had mine done at Yonge-Eglinton Laser Eye Clinic by Dr. Rootman. It was a phenomenal experience and I couldn't be happier with the outcome. My vision is literally perfect both day and night. My gf had her eyes done two years ago using the same technology at a clinic in BC. Same great result. Intralase is WORTH the money. Aside from that, 99% of the info on the internet is crap written by people who aren't qualified to comment. Talk to a Dr.



I agree with I, Citizen here... the Docter actually suggested that the age i was at (22) was around the perfect age because your eye is still young and healthy and has had less of a chance to develop problems that would complicate the surgery... once again just my experiance. Go talk to a DR


----------



## Globemaster77

Just a quick note for the guy who asked about my glider application, I found out today that I was accepted to the glider pilot scholarship!! I'm flipping sh*t right now and can't sit still!!! I feel that I am one step closer to my dream already. 

Thanks for your help guys! Any of you guys attended this before? Got any tips for me?


----------



## Trick

I said:
			
		

> That is complete misinformation.
> 
> I had LasikWaveFront done 4 years ago at 21 and still see 20/16 in each eye... without any astigmatism. My original prescription was -2.5 and 90 ast. for each eye. Everyone's eyes are unique and the only person who can confirm you are ready for the surgery is the Dr. I had mine done at Yonge-Eglinton Laser Eye Clinic by Dr. Rootman. It was a phenomenal experience and I couldn't be happier with the outcome. My vision is literally perfect both day and night. My gf had her eyes done two years ago using the same technology at a clinic in BC. Same great result. Intralase is WORTH the money. Aside from that, 99% of the info on the internet is crap written by people who aren't qualified to comment. Talk to a Dr.
> 
> PS. Stay far far far away from LasikMD. Everyone I have met who had their eyes done at a LasikMD outlet has suffered very negative complications. They are only interested in the money and push shitty procedures with shitty technology. Stay far far away from them.
> 
> Edited to add postscript.



No, it's not. You're right, each case is individual, but a responsible doctor (not one just looking for a payday) would advise a patient to wait until early to mid twenties. It doesn't mean it can't work out, especially by 21 things would _probably _be just fine. It just means they should probably wait a little bit. There's a big emphasis in medicine on avoiding unnecessary surgery. A doctor who ignores that would indeed be deemed "irresponsible" by his peers. For this reason, many of these surgeons are in fact looked down on by their peers (at least here in Ontario). 21 isn't so bad, especially if your eyes have been stable for years. There's a big difference here between 21 and 18 (not like say 33 and 36. The OP is significantly younger than you were. You're also right in that I'm not really qualified to talk about it- I'm not a vision specialist. I am however in another medical field just trying to offer my 2 cents and I get the feeling you are not. Anecdotes are not medical advice.

Anyone looking to get laser surgery should start their journey not by walking into a clinic, but with their GP, who will (hopefully) point them in the right direction from the outset.

EDIT: Congrats on the scholarship! I was an air cadet myself.


----------



## dcs

Do a lot of investigation and listen to your personal GP and the reputable  (Lasik,Bochman etc) eye doctors.  If they say anything but positive at the current time... wait.  And... when you do go ahead (if you do) make sure that you are getting the type of procedure that is acceptable for flight crews if that is what you are going for. Also Med Techs that we spoke to said that they get a lot that have it done and the results do not change the medical status of the file.  Also a cost of about $5,000      ..... Bochner does dove a student/military discount of 15% I think it was.

Younger Son was advised that his eyesight was not not good enough for his selected trades and asked if he wanted to select others that were.   He really wanted the selected trades and his older brother is at RMC and would not change his decision for the world.

Younger son wanted to take a look at Laser surgery and we spoke with a number of Doctors and did a lot of web based research to say the least.  He was 18 at the time, and a few doctors showed little concern and comment........ walk away from these.  Spoke with Bochman, who have been around a long time and the Doctors there literally wrote the text books for such surgery.  The first question was "what change has there been in his eyes over the past 3 years?"  and " we need copies of his eye exam results from the last three years before we can even make any comment".   His eyesight has been very stable with very little change, which they said was unusual for someone of his age.   They stated that they could therefore do the surgery only if his eyes checked out and corneal thickness etc was good.... And that they could not guarantee 20/20 vision but were able to supply statistics as to percentage that were and others.    Also stated that as we all should know eyesight changes as we get older and that would still happen etc....

Took down the past three years results, had him checked out and the surgery was done.  He was a real trooper (no pun intended) and pleased to state that he does indeed have 20/20 vision and has been changed to V1 and merit listed March 15th.   He is a strong candidate or we would not have had him get.......... it is his dream and I guess he will find out in the next couple of weeks if he is accepted.   If not .....  either Queens, McMaster or Carleton for CIvil Engineering.

So in summary... do your homework and listen to the Doctors and take their advice.  DONT EVEN DISCUSS FURTHER WITH THOSE THAT DO NOT ASK A LOT OF QUESTIONS WITH YOUR AGE.  Son was fortunate that stable and thick corneas etc.  If they recommend not to do for a few more years or until stable listen to them.  Most will not even do the surgery when this is the case... there is a a reason that this is their stance.

Good luck in your application.


----------



## dcs

From sons experience.............    You will not be Merit listed until you meet all requirements including medical.  They will not give any status to you having had the surgery  (and see earlier post in regards to you even doing that at your age).

How could they possibly know the outcome 6 months post operation and that it will be acceptable????  

Your file will be simply with a whole lot of others... on hold not proceeding due to medical reasons.


----------



## I dont know

So I’m from the UK (My father is from Quebec and so I have Canadian citizenship) and hope to be a pilot serving the CF. 

Today I had an eye test, and my optometrist told me that my vision is okay and that I will be eligible to do things like be in the air force and become a pilot.

However, I just want to get confirmation of this and hope you guys can tell me based on what my prescription states...

Right: Sph= -1.00 Cyl= -0.50 Axis=90

Left: Sph= -1.25 Cyl= -0.25 Axis= 105

(These results are listed on the 'distance' blocks)


----------



## mariomike

This may help:
http://www.google.com/cse?cx=001303416948774225061%3Aqhcx9pz3dku&ie=UTF-8&q=pilot+vision&sa=Search&siteurl=www.google.com%2Fcse%2Fhome%3Fcx%3D001303416948774225061%3Aqhcx9pz3dku&ref=#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=pilot%20vision&gsc.page=1

Also see, "Vision Threads for Pilot Applicants(eyesight)":
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/17703/post-103980.html?PHPSESSID=aa5o7mgk0v8ksv19koau5hdjh7#msg103980


----------



## Jon_John

AGD said:
			
		

> CFP 154: http://www.forces.gc.ca/health-sante/pd/cfp-pfc-154/default-eng.asp



The website indicates minimum med standards. So if one receives a lower numerical value on their med testing is this acceptable, or is it the higher the number the better your medical performance. I'm having a hard time finding an answer to that even after searching through the references. I completed a med test back in 2008 and I'm trying to determine (based on those results) how far off my med performance is from that of the pilot trade. i.e. the vision requirement for pilot is 2, I received a 3 back in 2008; is a lower number better?


----------



## brihard

No it is not I'm afraid. The lower the number the better. Pilot requires V2 or lower, you're a V3. You will not be a CF pilot.


----------



## Jon_John

Brihard said:
			
		

> No it is not I'm afraid. The lower the number the better. Pilot requires V2 or lower, you're a V3. You will not be a CF pilot.



Thanks for the prompt reply! Do individuals have to meet the minimum vision requirements BEFORE applying as a pilot or can this requirement be met even after aircrew selection? I'm only asking because it looks like laser eye surgery is my only option here but I am not interested in pursuing that if I'm not accepted into the pilot trade (for my own personal  reasons), if I later find out that I've passed all other preliminary testing inclusive of aircrew selection then I would be more comfortable with receiving laser eye surgery.  

Thanks in advance.


----------



## medicineman

If you're not a V2 when you do your enrollment medical, you'll not be processed further for aircrew selection as a pilot.

MM


----------



## Gunshark

This advice might be too obvious, but why not pop into the CFRC and discuss your options in person with the recruiter? This is the go-to vehicle for answering questions, especially serious ones like whether to go through with lazik or not. Best of luck.


----------



## Flyingboy444

Hi, on the Canada Forces website they say that you can still apply to become a pilot if you wear glasses. But, my problem is that I don't really need glasses. I did my driver license test and I pass the vision test without glasses but I was borderline. So, I don't 20/20 vision but I don't have bad vision. Most likely if I do become a pilot in the air force I would need to wear my glasses but would I be okay for the application process. Thank you very much.


----------



## Sadukar09

A little search goes a long way.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/31590.0

Pilots need V1 in visual acuity.

So you have to have 20/20 uncorrected vision.


----------



## Flyingboy444

But that was in 2005. The website say if you wear glasses you can apply. http://www.forces.ca/en/page/faq-101


----------



## mariomike

Flyingboy444 said:
			
		

> But that was in 2005. The website say if you wear glasses you can apply. http://www.forces.ca/en/page/faq-101



Also, I saw this the other day in regards to a question about hearing.

Medical Standards for Military Occupations
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-medical-occupations/index.page

Date modified:2013-07-23

Best bet is to contact CFRC.


----------



## PuckChaser

Flyingboy444 said:
			
		

> But, my problem is that I don't really need glasses. I did my driver license test and I pass the vision test without glasses but I was borderline.



For some reason, I think the vision standard to fly a multimillion dollar aircraft at speeds over 200mph at a minimum are probably significantly higher than a civilian driver's test.


----------



## Loachman

Glasses are not a showstopper. A few things have changed since 2005. A little search may go a long way, but a big one will go further.

You will get a pretty thorough eye exam if you make it to that point, and that will determine whether your eyesight is good enough or not.

There is a lot more on this site that you should be reading if you want to be a CF Pilot.


----------



## Flyingboy444

Also, is there a difference between the vision requirements for fast jet, multi engine and helicopter? Thanks for all answers. BTW this was my first post but not my last!


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Flyingboy444 said:
			
		

> Also, is there a difference between the vision requirements for fast jet, multi engine and helicopter? Thanks for all answers. BTW this was my first post but not my last!



Thanks for the warning.

We'll fire up the radar and schedule extra mod operators.


----------



## Loachman

Flyingboy444 said:
			
		

> Also, is there a difference between the vision requirements for fast jet, multi engine and helicopter? Thanks for all answers.



No.

I gave you some guidance in my last response. Read,  and learn to use the Search Function. If you cannot do simple work like that, y'ain't getting near a live CF aircraft.


----------



## Blackadder1916

I suppose resurrecting a long dead thread is appropriate for All Hallows' Eve, but as my presence on these means has been sporadic over the past year or more, I don't know if this topic has been discussed on a more recent thread.  The arrival in the mail a few days ago of the most recent PSHCP bulletin got me wondering if a similar benefit has been initiated in the CF's spectrum of care.  The reason for my wondering?



> *Laser eye surgery now eligible under the Plan*
> 
> Effective October 1, 2014, the PSHCP will cover expenses for elective laser eye surgery to correct vision.  The benefit is subject to a lifetime maximum of $1,000 (reimbursed at 80%).  Procedures that take place before October 1, 2014, will not be eligible.
> 
> Please note that the lifetime maximum is per covered person under the Plan, not per eye or per procedure.  The surgery must be performed by an opthalmologist; however, a physician's prescription (referral) is not required by the Plan.


----------



## CombatDoc

Laser eye surgery is not presently covered in the CF Spectrum of Care. This has been a topic of discussion for at least 15 years, including the cost savings of not having to provide prescription eyewear.


----------



## Mister Donut

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> I suppose resurrecting a long dead thread is appropriate for All Hallows' Eve, but as my presence on these means has been sporadic over the past year or more, I don't know if this topic has been discussed on a more recent thread.  The arrival in the mail a few days ago of the most recent PSHCP bulletin got me wondering if a similar benefit has been initiated in the CF's spectrum of care.  The reason for my wondering?






			
				ArmyDoc said:
			
		

> Laser eye surgery is not presently covered in the CF Spectrum of Care. This has been a topic of discussion for at least 15 years, including the cost savings of not having to provide prescription eyewear.



I was wondering the same thing and figured it would be at least offered to Reg force folks and maybe Class B, but I guess CF isn’t covered under the Public Service Health Care Plan?


----------



## medicineman

No - they're covered under the CFSOC.

MM


----------



## MartinB22

Hi there,

I haven't seen a whole lot of posts related to the air division of the CF on here, but I thought I'd still ask. I have always dreamed of being a pilot with the Canadian Forces, but recently my vision deteriorated just past the 20/20 requirements (I'm 20/20 in one eye and 20/25 in the other  ). However, I was just browsing the pilot webpage on the forces.ca website and on the entry plans portion of this page (http://www.forces.ca/en/job/pilot-32), it says "Applicants who wear glasses, contacts, or have had certain types of laser refractive surgery to improve their vision may apply for the Pilot occupation. However, Radial Keratotomy or corneal reshaping procedures are not approved for Pilots." So does this mean that it's now possible to fly in the CF if your vision is corrected with glasses? I'm not too keen on getting laser eye surgery so this would be awesome, if it's not a mistake. 

I look forward to hearing back on this topic.

Kind regards,
Martin


----------



## Loachman

Hello, MartinB22, and Welcome to Army.ca

I have merged your post with an existing thread regarding Laser Eye Surgery for Pilots. I also intend to merge other Pilot vision-related topics into this one. Other people with knowledge can also chime in here, whereas they cannot in the Ask a Recruiter section.

In the meantime, the nifty Search Function is your friend. Please take the time to do some research here. You will likely find answers to questions that have not even occurred to you yet.


----------



## DAA

MartinB22 said:
			
		

> So does this mean that it's now possible to fly in the CF if your vision is corrected with glasses? I'm not too keen on getting laser eye surgery so this would be awesome, if it's not a mistake.



You will never know whether or not you are medically fit for the Pilot occupation, until you apply and have been properly assessed by the recruiting medical staff.  Anything less, is mere speculation.


----------



## MartinB22

DAA said:
			
		

> You will never know whether or not you are medically fit for the Pilot occupation, until you apply and have been properly assessed by the recruiting medical staff.  Anything less, is mere speculation.


Fair enough. As soon as I finish flight college I guess I'll apply and hope for the best. If I'm unsuccessful, I guess I'll just have to bite the bullet and do the LASIK surgery.


----------



## Luftwaffle

MartinB22 said:
			
		

> Fair enough. As soon as I finish flight college I guess I'll apply and hope for the best. If I'm unsuccessful, I guess I'll just have to bite the bullet and do the LASIK surgery.


I had laser eye surgery done last September and went from a 20/200 V4 to 20/15 in each eye, sometimes 20/10 in my left. I'll share my advice.

-Take your time and find a highly skilled doctor, the best equipment, and preferably a life-long guarantee with free post-operative checkups (you're going to have plenty of those, especially if something goes wrong). My eyes ran me $3700 at King Lasik (after a $300 military discount, also got $1050 back on my tax return), I paid for around $200 in meds, I have a year of free appointments at my local eye place, and as long as I get an eye check once a year, I can go back whenever I want to get my eyes re-done for free.

Get PRK, not lasik. PRK takes longer to heal, but it does not leave a flap. Also, as far as I can tell, in some branches of the military there's a bias against Lasik due to the flap. The usual fear is that water pressure / concussive force from heavy weapons discharges / air pressure / sand / etc might dislodge the flap or irritate it. This may not sound like a big deal, but speaking from experience, a painfully irritated eye will jam itself shut regardless of how much you will it to be open. Seeing as you're in a field where getting minor eye injuries is common, you probably won't want that flap's liability.

-If you do one eye at a time, for the love of god, do your dominant eye first. When your brain starts retraining eye dominance, it's weird to say the least.

-Don't worry about pain during the procedure! it's just weird and uncomfortable. The next 24 hours will be a little painful, but the funny thing about eye irritation pain is that it makes you keep your eyes shut. You'll spend a lot of the next day sleeping whether you want to or not. Pain after 24 hours will vary. My pilot friend was extremely light sensitive and spent the first few days hiding from light in a pitch black room. I was just fine. That said, for the first week or two, your vision will be something like 20/80 while the initial healing occurs. Don't get freaked out by it. It slowly gets better over 2-4 months.

-What people may not tell you is that morning dry eye is very common after laser eye surgery for up to two years afterwards due to all the nerves the procedure damages. Overnight eye ointment will be your friend. $10/tube, lasts a month or so, and saves you the trouble of waking up with painfully dry eyes while staggering around, trying to find eye drops. Lubricating gel, however, will be your friend in the morning if you ever forget to put eye ointment in. It's thicker than drops, so it soothes those burning eyes much better.

-Break your habit of rubbing your eyes. I trained myself to rub my temples instead. Not only is rubbing your eyes a way to deform perfectly good eyes, but rubbing your healing ones will be counterproductive to healing properly, and most importantly, will hurt like a motherfucker. Seriously. One time I woke up and, not thinking, accidentally dragged my arm over my left eye three weeks in. Worst pain of my life.

-Follow your eyedrop schedule.

-Take flax seed oil and omega 3 supplements to help those eyes heal.

While it was easily the best decision of my life, do keep in mind that the numbers are something like 50% for getting 20/15 after surgery and 90% for 20/20 after surgery. There's no guarantee your eyes will get fixed.

Hope it all works out for you, though!


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## medicineman

A good ophthalmologist will make the decision for you which is the best procedure based on what you do or plan on doing for a living - I'm going through the process now.  Though I'd prefer going through the iLASIK due to recovery time and missing work (not to mention what I saw my wife go through for her PRK), I've a feeling that I'll be pushed towards the PRK simply because I'm still active in the Reserves and work full time in emergency medicine, where things can get a little rough sometimes.  I see my ophthalmologist in a couple weeks and we'll have the formal discussion then..the price for the 2 is the same, so we'll see how things go.

MM


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## MartinB22

Thanks for the advice guys. It's appreciated. So I've done a little more research. I don't think there would be any point to getting laser eye surgery right now as my eyes are really not that bad (one is 20/20 and the other is 20/25). As far as I know, my vision is V2 which means I could fly with glasses as long as they correct me to 20/20 vision. The only restriction would be that I can't fly fast jets, for obvious reasons. My goal is flying transport aircraft so that works for me! If my eyesight deteriorates to V3 vision or less, I guess I'll have no choice but to get laser eye surgery if I want to be a pilot in the CF. I'll make sure I go the PRK way because I don't fancy the idea of a flap on my eyes! 

Cheers


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## BlueAngels14

Good day ladies and gentleman,

After completing my interview last Wednesday, I was scheduled to go back for my medical today. I am by no means an expert in the medical process but I just wanted to share a quick example of the visual acuity numbers for those who know they might potentially be around V3/V4 and are worried. (This addresses vision for Combat Arms trades rather than Pilots, however the other vision megathread is locked.) The Sergeant, who was also the medical officer on duty, told me that my eyes would not qualify me for the three trades I applied for. To make sure that they were correct, the Sergeant gave me a Visual Acuity "Non Aircrew" form and told me to have it filled out by an optometrist. The form is to be handed back in within 30 days by mail or in person in order to keep my application file active. It was a whooping $60 for the eye examination and $35 to fill out the damn form. :-\ The following were the results: 

*Uncorrected vision* (without glasses or contact lens)
Right: 6/90 = 20/300
Left: 6/90 = 20/300

*Best corrected vision* (with my glasses on)
Right: 6/6
Left: 6/6

*Present glasses* 
Right: -4.00 sphere 
Left: -5.00 sphere -0.50 Cylinder 004º Axis

*Manifest refreaction* (actual prescription)
Right: -4.00 sphere
Left: -4.50 sphere -0.50 Cylinder 005º Axis 

Turns out that the glasses I have right now, the left lens is -0.50 sphere stronger and 001º weaker than what my left eye needs. However, the result still puts my eyes in the V4 category, therefore disqualifying me from the combat arms trades. :'( Just thought I'd share these numbers as a quick reference for those with a similar prescription.

Keep your eyes healthy !


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## SupersonicMax

MartinB22 said:
			
		

> As far as I know, my vision is V2 which means I could fly with glasses as long as they correct me to 20/20 vision. The only restriction would be that I can't fly fast jets, for obvious reasons.



Where did you get this information?  Or is it an assumption?


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## wolfforlunch

Good day folks,

I am a recent applicant to the CF. I have chosen to pursue the Pilot position.
I wrote my CFAT two weeks ago and I was told that I will be called within 45 times for my interview and medical. The CAF Recruiting officer was extraordinarily supportive and told me that I did great on my CFAT. He said that I had every potential to become a pilot, as long as I do well on my interview and ACS test. I have a couple of medical question that I forgot to ask the CAF Recruiter, that I was hoping you'd be kind enough to help me with:

I do not have 20/20 vision. I was told that I do not require glasses by the optometrist, but my vision is somewhere around 19.50/20.50.  I also like to add that my height is 5' 7". Now is this enough for me to fail the medical? If so, should I stop the application process and not waste the CAF's time along with my own? I would love some insight on this.

God Bless.


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## Pilot-Wannabe

Not sure about the vision but youre good for height as far as I know - see the topic below.

http://army.ca/forums/threads/17651.0

as long as youre over a little less than 5'4" and under 6'2"\6'3" standing.


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## bradley247

Pilot-Wannabe said:
			
		

> Not sure about the vision but youre good for height as far as I know - see the topic below.
> 
> http://army.ca/forums/threads/17651.0
> 
> as long as youre over a little less than 5'4" and under 6'2"\6'3" standing.
> 
> Good luck! Im a pilot hopeful too just need to finish up school first



That info is over a decade old and no longer valid. There are no min/max heights anymore, your body is measured by a computer to determine what (if any) aircraft you fit in. The average height for males in Canada is 5'8.5", being 5'7" is a non issue (it's body proportions that count anyways, not height).


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## JackMerridrew

I'd still go through with the medical, aircrew candidates actually need what's called a "cytoplegic refraction" as well.

If you know your prescription you can compare it to the V2 vision category on the forces website here. (Pilots need V2 and up)

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-medical-occupations/cf-visual-acuity-testing-instructions.page

I wouldn't count yourself out yet.


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## PuckChaser

Gentlemen, this area of the forums is for recruiters only to answer questions. That way, only official responses are here and they will not mislead potential applicants. Those official recruiters will have their rank in their forum name, and a special badge. You probably didn't see the giant orange banner at the top and bottom.


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## MAJONES

The only person who can give you the difinitive answer is the recruiting medical officer which means your best bet is to go do the medical and see what thr RMO says.


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## bradley247

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Gentlemen, this area of the forums is for recruiters only to answer questions. That way, only official responses are here and they will not mislead potential applicants. Those official recruiters will have their rank in their forum name, and a special badge. You probably didn't see the giant orange banner at the top and bottom.



My bad, didn't see the banner. I just saw bad info being passed and jumped on it.


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## mariomike

DAA said:
			
		

> You will never know whether or not you are medically fit for the Pilot occupation, until you apply and have been properly assessed by the recruiting medical staff.  Anything less, is mere speculation.



Considering the source of the above advice is DAA, and another thread about vision standards for Pilots has been started elsewhere today, his advice is probably worth repeating.


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## Loachman

Standard practice is to remove all non-DS/non-Recruiter posts in this forum. I am leaving these, however, and will move or merge this thread when I have a little more time. 



			
				wolfforlunch said:
			
		

> should I stop the application process and not waste the CAF's time along with my own?



Apply. You'll never know until you go through the process. This is not a waste of time. It's a necessary step. Is trying a waste of time? Selection itself is no guarantee of success. There are many opportunities to fail throughout the Pilot training programme.

If you want your Wings, you have to take that first step, and then you have to want your Wings enough to do the work necessary to earn them.


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## mariomike

Loachman said:
			
		

> I am leaving these, however, and will move or merge this thread when I have a little more time.



In addition to the above six pages, and the one started today in Ask a CAF Recruiter, there are plenty more Pilot vision threads,

Vision Requirements for PILOT  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/56529.0

is there any way to be a pilot with imperfect vision?
http://army.ca/forums/threads/104653.0

Have the exact vision requirements for pilot changed?
http://army.ca/forums/threads/40464.0

Need an advice on eye laser surgery  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/117977.0
"My eye sight does not meet the requirements for the pilot so I am considering to have LASIK."

Becoming a Pilot  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/17651.0/nowap.html
"Lets just say I don't have 20/20 vision. But, I get laser surgery so that I do have 20/20. Am I eligable to be a CF pilot?"

etc...


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## Loachman

And all but the last link have now been merged into this thread.

Thanks, mariomike.


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## Willyboyrun

Hi all,

I'm looking to join the Infantry, and had LASIK done just under 6 months ago. I cannot seem to find any information on the recruiting websites, and though I have read a number of the threads on here - I have not been able to find quite the answer I'm looking for.

Could anyone tell me the acceptable time between LASIK and joining? Would it be acceptable to apply now?

Respectfully,

Willy


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## mariomike

Willyboyrun said:
			
		

> Could anyone tell me the acceptable time between LASIK and joining?



For reference, perhaps,

LASIK Eye Surgery and Infantry

will be merged with,

Laser eye surgery  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/13032.325
14 pages.

See also,

Lasik
https://www.google.ca/search?q=lasik&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gws_rd=cr,ssl&ei=bLifV8H5GuzZjwTdxpXoBQ#q=lasik+site:army.ca

_As always,_  Recruiting is your most trusted source of information.


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## DAA

Willyboyrun said:
			
		

> I'm looking to join the Infantry, and had LASIK done just under 6 months ago. I cannot seem to find any information on the recruiting websites, and though I have read a number of the threads on here - I have not been able to find quite the answer I'm looking for.
> Could anyone tell me the acceptable time between LASIK and joining? Would it be acceptable to apply now?



As a general rule of thumb, the CF will not approve your medical profile until after 6 months from the date you had the surgery.  They will also request additional information about your LASIK surgery during the medical portion of your application process.

If you are coming up on the 6 month mark post surgery with no complications, it would be safe for you to apply now.


----------



## RedCardOP

Actually I was at the recruitment center a few weeks ago (And forgot my ID like a genius) and asked a similar question. The times are as such:
 3 months for non-aircrew trades
 6 months for aircrew trades

Recommend Procedures for Aircrew (Not Pilots) and other trades:
 WFG or conventional PRK
 WFG or conventional LASEK or Epi-LASIK
 WFG or conventional LASIK (either with mechanical or femtosecond 
keratome)

Recommend Procedures for Pilots:
 WFG PRK
 WFG LASEK or Epi-LASIK
 WFG LASIK with femtosecond keratome

Non-approved Procedures for Aircrew(Not Pilots) and other trades:
 RK
 Any other corneal reshaping procedures

Non-approved Procedures for Pilots:
 RK
 Any other corneal reshaping procedures
 Conventional (non WFG) refractive surgery

(Source: Med Tech Sgt)


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## Deadpoetic6

On the force.ca website, for pilots, they say that laser eye surgery is accepted, except Radial Keratotomy or corneal reshaping procedures.

Corneal reshaping, isnt this what Lasik and all laser eye surgeries does??


----------



## CombatDoc

Deadpoetic6 - read first, post afterwards. This topic has been covered.


----------



## BCstangWA

Hey guys,

I just had a question. Thankfully the career counselor wants to give me the position I am very excited and happy, she said as long as I can verify my workplaces so im hunting down the t4,s also my medical.  I am just waiting on something. I just had some questions about the medical. So I did the medical, all tests are fine, no anxiety, no depressed, no allergies, no adhd no meds no injuries. I did have prk correction in my eyes. Also I was just wondering I was a bit nervous I think I had some salt for lunch a burger and fries, and I didn't sleep all night because I was preparing for my interview. But I have some questions for someone out there hoping they can help.*0) also is it ok to have an appendix removed? I told her that and asked if it was ok she said yes why wouldn't it be  1) she said my blood pressure was a bit high on the exam, but she didn't give me a sheet to fill from my doctor, is that good then? Also on my reserve fitness test it was fine, but I switched to full force so I just have the paper still. 2) for the prk surgery I was just wondering I have a  sheet here it says when did you get it about 4 months ago now, she said 3 after you can join, heres what it says: Request for medical information (refractive surgery) type of surgery, prk, date of surgery. some eye data. Yes/ no questions include : glare sensitivity, photophobia, nigh vision difficulty, diumal variation of vision, dry eyes I think I have a bit need the drops at least 2 times a day right now but it will wear off, and corneal haze. Also Current medication: no, any restrictions, no, is any follow up required, yes, once in a month, once in 3 months, 6 months and a year, so yes, can the follow up be done my a optometrist: I think yes because they just make me do the eye exam again. Date of final post operation check. Does anyone know more about this stuff, moreso the post prk. THANKS!!!    :warstory:


----------



## Kat Stevens

The questions on that sheet are for your doctor to answer, not you.  You were given it because the medical people need more information on your condition than they currently have, and they can't proceed until they have it. Get it done and handed in pdq, and wait.  That's the only answer you're likely to get here, none of us work in your CFRC med section, and even if we did it's likely you wouldn't get a reply in an unofficial forum.  Good luck, I hope it all works out for you.


----------



## mariomike

airforce2714 said:
			
		

> *0) also is it ok to have an appendix removed?



Question about Medical (previous surgery) 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/24039.0
OP: "I had surgery to remove my appendix when I was 7 years old (13 years ago)."



			
				airforce2714 said:
			
		

> 1) she said my blood pressure was a bit high on the exam, but she didn't give me a sheet to fill from my doctor, is that good then?



The Blood Pressure Superthread  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/19246.25
7 pages.



			
				airforce2714 said:
			
		

> 2)Does anyone know more about this stuff, moreso the post prk.



All things LASIK surgery (aircrew/other -- merged)  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/12747.150
22 pages.

_As always,_  Recruiting is your most trusted source of information.


----------



## Jayjaycf

Hey Airforce2714 thought I would chime in, ive had corrective laser surgery done prior to enrollment. I had to wait 6 months after the surgery to get cleared by medical staff. Other than that all was good I suppose you have medical form because you picked an occupation who need further medical testing. What are the trade you applied for ?


----------



## FSTG

Currently in the application process for Pilot trade. Done my CFAT and waiting on the interview/medical. Seems to be a minimum delay of 6 months after eye surgery from the information previously stated. As i went for an enhancement surgery (LASIK) 3 months prior to application to be sure to be V1, do i need to tell them right away as it will just be a waste of time for me and the medical staff at the recruiting center or is this 6 month delay only important for the phase II medical in Toronto after the ACS? Thanks a bunch.


----------



## PuckChaser

Disclose it at the medical, it's private medical information.


----------



## SFHL

Hello,

I'm currently awaiting my CFAT for my ROTP application (I realize I've probably missed selection for this year). I've applied for pilot. Noting that there is a 6 month wait time between LASIK and application, I was thinking of getting it done right after enrollment, well before BMOQ. Is this kosher? 

Thanks!


----------



## Seanadams

SFHL said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> I'm currently awaiting my CFAT for my ROTP application (I realize I've probably missed selection for this year). I've applied for pilot. Noting that there is a 6 month wait time between LASIK and application, I was thinking of getting it done right after enrollment, well before BMOQ. Is this kosher?
> 
> Thanks!



If your waiting a year for pilot anyway , get it now , you've only got a few months between enrolment and bmoq I think..


----------



## FSTG

RedCardOP said:
			
		

> Actually I was at the recruitment center a few weeks ago (And forgot my ID like a genius) and asked a similar question. The times are as such:
> 
> Non-approved Procedures for Pilots:
> RK
> Any other corneal reshaping procedures
> Conventional (non WFG) refractive surgery
> 
> (Source: Med Tech Sgt)



I believe this information might not be true for applying candidates to pilot trade. WFG is for SERVING pilots. Its the safest surgery and when the forces fully trained you at enormous cost it’s quite understandable. Applying candidates that received conventional LASIK/PRK (non-WFG) prior to enrollement and observe no complications after 6 month should be fine.

Correct me if i’m wrong.


----------

