# Re: Joining the Brits



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Juno847627709@aol.com* on *Mon, 1 Jan 2001 22:47:24 EST*
Let‘s get something straight: I‘m not looking to be a mercenary.
                            I‘m not planning on ‘selling out‘
                        I don‘t give two sh*ts about having the ‘coolest 
looking‘ gear
    I am a frusterated Canadian. I see our traditions, our past, our 
principles, our soldiers, and even our ‘nationhood‘ get bashed every day. I 
don‘t claim to know HALF as much as Mr. Gow, Mr. MacFarlane, Mr. Schepens, 
Mr. Devries, or anyone on this list. 
    My next statements will seem to you like lies, stories, and basically 
just anything I could think of to save face. Not true.
    - - - - I am a very proud Canadian. I love it here. Our civilian 
opportunites are unparalled. We can do ANYTHING we want to with work. I know 
that. We are an accepting nation. We have immigrants at the door step all the 
time because it‘s hard to keep the fact that we are one of the best countries 
in the world, a secret. As a Canadian, I am fiercely devoted to the Canadian 
people, military, and well-being. Also, as a Canadian I am almost equally as 
devoted to the British Crown. My Monarch. My Queen. Whether I make my career 
here in Canada, or over in GB, that will remain. In Canada, it seems as 
though, with the vast majority or people, nothing is sacred. I feel that is 
an impression which we may give to frequently. Widely, our military is 
bashed, and not taken care of. Although that is, to some degree, the case 
everywhere, it‘s my understanding and opinion that things of that nature are 
not as common in Britain. 
    Sirs and soldiers,: I don‘t care about the title "Airborne Ranger" I 
don‘t look at some poster and say, "Wow, I want to look like that guy with 
the Maroon Beret and the Big Gun!"
    I‘m rambling, but I don‘t know how to express this. The word ‘mercenary‘ 
in its very essence is disgusting, and I‘m uphauled that some might think I 
should be, in any way, associated with that title.
    This is not some little kid who evaluates how cool uniforms look, or what 
the payroll is. 
    I am well aware that this list does not revolve around me, and I am 
sincerely sorry for sharing so many personaly views, and taking up your time 
to yak about myself. 
    I love our Country even as much as the rest here. No, I haven‘t bled for 
it yet, and no, I haven‘t had to go to some God-forsaken place in her name 
yet, but my time too will come.
    If anyone thinks that myself, Adam, or anyone else who may one day go to 
Britain is in someway being  some kind of a traitor or mercenary, he‘s 
gravely mistaken. 
    I‘d do anything to make you realise how much I love this place, but it 
doesn‘t matter.
    Sure, I‘ll ‘give my head a shake‘, and maybe realise I‘m doing something 
wrong, or just plain dumb. But till then, I hope no one makes any more 
blanket statements about what one might perceive as a ‘childish‘ interest in 
the UK‘s Forces. 
    I don‘t know what else to say.

                            matt
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Jay Digital" <todesengel@home.com>* on *Mon, 1 Jan 2001 23:08:24 -0500*
For Queen and Country perhaps?
:
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Monday, January 01, 2001 10:47 PM
Subject: Re: Joining the Brits
> Let‘s get something straight: I‘m not looking to be a mercenary.
>                             I‘m not planning on ‘selling out‘
>                         I don‘t give two sh*ts about having the ‘coolest
> looking‘ gear
>     I am a frusterated Canadian. I see our traditions, our past, our
> principles, our soldiers, and even our ‘nationhood‘ get bashed every day.
I
> don‘t claim to know HALF as much as Mr. Gow, Mr. MacFarlane, Mr. Schepens,
> Mr. Devries, or anyone on this list.
>     My next statements will seem to you like lies, stories, and basically
> just anything I could think of to save face. Not true.
>     - - - - I am a very proud Canadian. I love it here. Our civilian
> opportunites are unparalled. We can do ANYTHING we want to with work. I
know
> that. We are an accepting nation. We have immigrants at the door step all
the
> time because it‘s hard to keep the fact that we are one of the best
countries
> in the world, a secret. As a Canadian, I am fiercely devoted to the
Canadian
> people, military, and well-being. Also, as a Canadian I am almost equally
as
> devoted to the British Crown. My Monarch. My Queen. Whether I make my
career
> here in Canada, or over in GB, that will remain. In Canada, it seems as
> though, with the vast majority or people, nothing is sacred. I feel that
is
> an impression which we may give to frequently. Widely, our military is
> bashed, and not taken care of. Although that is, to some degree, the case
> everywhere, it‘s my understanding and opinion that things of that nature
are
> not as common in Britain.
>     Sirs and soldiers,: I don‘t care about the title "Airborne Ranger" I
> don‘t look at some poster and say, "Wow, I want to look like that guy with
> the Maroon Beret and the Big Gun!"
>     I‘m rambling, but I don‘t know how to express this. The word
‘mercenary‘
> in its very essence is disgusting, and I‘m uphauled that some might think
I
> should be, in any way, associated with that title.
>     This is not some little kid who evaluates how cool uniforms look, or
what
> the payroll is.
>     I am well aware that this list does not revolve around me, and I am
> sincerely sorry for sharing so many personaly views, and taking up your
time
> to yak about myself.
>     I love our Country even as much as the rest here. No, I haven‘t bled
for
> it yet, and no, I haven‘t had to go to some God-forsaken place in her name
> yet, but my time too will come.
>     If anyone thinks that myself, Adam, or anyone else who may one day go
to
> Britain is in someway being  some kind of a traitor or mercenary, he‘s
> gravely mistaken.
>     I‘d do anything to make you realise how much I love this place, but it
> doesn‘t matter.
>     Sure, I‘ll ‘give my head a shake‘, and maybe realise I‘m doing
something
> wrong, or just plain dumb. But till then, I hope no one makes any more
> blanket statements about what one might perceive as a ‘childish‘ interest
in
> the UK‘s Forces.
>     I don‘t know what else to say.
>
>                             matt
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Mon, 1 Jan 2001 23:10:54 -0500*
Wll, I did say that I did not want to ruffle feathers the wrong way.
I, too, can get very frustrated, angry and upset over any number of things.
And I damned sure don‘t want my country to miss on having somebody as
genuine as you, Matt, go off to the UK over an issue that I percieve as
trivial, of whether we have a formalised Airborne element...or not.
The coolest looking gear, by the way is that of the soldier who knows how to
use it, and wears it with pride.
And as for being Canadian, yes, we are a nation of immigrants, remembering
too there are the First Peoples, who, really, got ripped a fair bit in the
Constitution, as they should be a "Distinct Society"..if only in my
opinion...
Regrettably, that same Constitution separated us somewhat from the UK...I‘m
no political science type to get into this, others may hopefully comment,
but we are an independent nation, and that separation began when the
Canadian Corps of volunteer civilians stormed Vimy Ridge, an "impossible"
task, and created a situation that ended the Great War.  We affirmed it in
September 1939, when Parliment debated going to war, instead of being at war
by action of the UK government.  We proved it in 1956, when Lester Pearson
prevented a world war by solving the Suez Crisis by the formation of UNEF...
Since then, we‘ve been in more actions that might have been, while fully
prepared for countering those actions.  That the Canadian public "seems"
oblivious of this, is in fact  high compliment to the men and women that
achieved it.  It is to our soldiers, sailors and airmen‘s collective credit
that those "actions" tended to be avoided, with exceptions like Kapyong,
Cyprus, recently in Bosnia...well you get the idea.
I‘m not sure that I‘m addressing your several points, but remember that
"bravery" is exceptional action in exceptional circumstance "courage" is
exceptional action over the long term.  I‘ve no doubt that you have a good
deal of both, exposing your thoughts on this list....just keep a clear head
on the long term benefits you could offer to you country, indeed to the
world.  The green beret is a small price, and trust me, you‘ll have all
sorts of chances for blue berets, which do a lo of great work.
You might want to speak with the people that received the benefit of an
Armed Service in the Red River Floods, Saguenay, Ice Storm, etc etc..the
ones I know have an awfuly high opinion of our Forces...
John
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Monday, January 01, 2001 10:47 PM
Subject: Re: Joining the Brits
> Let‘s get something straight: I‘m not looking to be a mercenary.
>                             I‘m not planning on ‘selling out‘
>                         I don‘t give two sh*ts about having the ‘coolest
> looking‘ gear
>     I am a frusterated Canadian. I see our traditions, our past, our
> principles, our soldiers, and even our ‘nationhood‘ get bashed every day.
I
> don‘t claim to know HALF as much as Mr. Gow, Mr. MacFarlane, Mr. Schepens,
> Mr. Devries, or anyone on this list.
>     My next statements will seem to you like lies, stories, and basically
> just anything I could think of to save face. Not true.
>     - - - - I am a very proud Canadian. I love it here. Our civilian
> opportunites are unparalled. We can do ANYTHING we want to with work. I
know
> that. We are an accepting nation. We have immigrants at the door step all
the
> time because it‘s hard to keep the fact that we are one of the best
countries
> in the world, a secret. As a Canadian, I am fiercely devoted to the
Canadian
> people, military, and well-being. Also, as a Canadian I am almost equally
as
> devoted to the British Crown. My Monarch. My Queen. Whether I make my
career
> here in Canada, or over in GB, that will remain. In Canada, it seems as
> though, with the vast majority or people, nothing is sacred. I feel that
is
> an impression which we may give to frequently. Widely, our military is
> bashed, and not taken care of. Although that is, to some degree, the case
> everywhere, it‘s my understanding and opinion that things of that nature
are
> not as common in Britain.
>     Sirs and soldiers,: I don‘t care about the title "Airborne Ranger" I
> don‘t look at some poster and say, "Wow, I want to look like that guy with
> the Maroon Beret and the Big Gun!"
>     I‘m rambling, but I don‘t know how to express this. The word
‘mercenary‘
> in its very essence is disgusting, and I‘m uphauled that some might think
I
> should be, in any way, associated with that title.
>     This is not some little kid who evaluates how cool uniforms look, or
what
> the payroll is.
>     I am well aware that this list does not revolve around me, and I am
> sincerely sorry for sharing so many personaly views, and taking up your
time
> to yak about myself.
>     I love our Country even as much as the rest here. No, I haven‘t bled
for
> it yet, and no, I haven‘t had to go to some God-forsaken place in her name
> yet, but my time too will come.
>     If anyone thinks that myself, Adam, or anyone else who may one day go
to
> Britain is in someway being  some kind of a traitor or mercenary, he‘s
> gravely mistaken.
>     I‘d do anything to make you realise how much I love this place, but it
> doesn‘t matter.
>     Sure, I‘ll ‘give my head a shake‘, and maybe realise I‘m doing
something
> wrong, or just plain dumb. But till then, I hope no one makes any more
> blanket statements about what one might perceive as a ‘childish‘ interest
in
> the UK‘s Forces.
>     I don‘t know what else to say.
>
>                             matt
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
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----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Bruce Williams" <Williabr@uregina.ca>* on *Mon, 1 Jan 2001 22:38:26 -0600*
> But if I was really looking for travel and adventure - remembering I am
only
> going to be young once - then I would also consider joining the French
> Foreign Legion. Well, what‘s the diff? They must have a unit or two for
> English speaking soldiers. Can‘t all be Germans and Spanish or Poles.
I agree. The Legion has some of the toughest training in the world. They are
based all over the world including French Polynesia which sounds very nice
in the middle of a Saskatchewan winter. They train extensively in the jungle
and desert as well as operating in Europe.
As for the language, they operate in French regardless of the original
language of a Legionnaire. IIRC you learn to understand the orders pretty
quickly and the gaps get filled in until you are fluent.
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Mon, 1 Jan 2001 23:40:38 -0500*
Hey Bruce, don‘t I know you?
John Gow
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Williams" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, January 01, 2001 11:38 PM
Subject: Re: Joining the Brits
>
> > But if I was really looking for travel and adventure - remembering I am
> only
> > going to be young once - then I would also consider joining the French
> > Foreign Legion. Well, what‘s the diff? They must have a unit or two for
> > English speaking soldiers. Can‘t all be Germans and Spanish or Poles.
>
> I agree. The Legion has some of the toughest training in the world. They
are
> based all over the world including French Polynesia which sounds very nice
> in the middle of a Saskatchewan winter. They train extensively in the
jungle
> and desert as well as operating in Europe.
>
> As for the language, they operate in French regardless of the original
> language of a Legionnaire. IIRC you learn to understand the orders pretty
> quickly and the gaps get filled in until you are fluent.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Peter deVries" <rsm_kes_cc254@hotmail.com>* on *Tue, 02 Jan 2001 05:26:07 *
Matt,
   I don‘t think you will find an army as respected as the Canadian army. I 
know Americans who thought that the Canadians were crazy because they were 
so unconventional during field training exercises. I also heard that 
Canadian troops are far more disciplined than the Brits No offense 
intended and example of this is during the Falkland war. In the infantry 
I‘m not sure if you are familiar with this there are attacks section, 
platoon, company, etc... during a section attack you do what is called 
firemovement which is also called pepper podding. which means you are 
broken down in to teams section, group, team-all this means is the number 
of people working together within the section with one person firing while 
the other moves. Usually you go down into the prone position when firing. 
The person moving takes about 3 steps UP-HE-SEES-ME-DOWN andthen gets down 
in a firing position. Anyway, what happened in the Falklands was that when 
the Brits started the approach on the enemy, they wouldn‘t get up to bound 
their 3 steps during the attack, and therefor the attacks didn‘t work very 
well.
So you see, every army has its blemishes. Don‘t get me wrong, I think that 
the Brits are great soldiers, but I wouldn‘t rate the regular infanteer over 
the Canadian. We have the respect of tons of counties.
Also, even though it‘s sometimes hard to see, we do have the respect of 
Canadians, just look at This Hour Has 22 Minutes, and the program they had 
on the Peacekeepers.
I don‘t think anyone is trying to annoy you Matt, but just trying to 
understand why anyone would want to join a foreign army when the Canadian 
army is one of the best in the world. It‘s very hard to understand it when 
you are not a part of it, but you are a cadet right? I know that when I was 
in cadets army I worshipped the Canadian reg force.
Well, Matt. Just something to think about.
Peter
>From: "Gow" 
>Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
>To: 
>Subject: Re: Joining the Brits
>Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 23:40:38 -0500
>
>Hey Bruce, don‘t I know you?
>
>John Gow
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Bruce Williams" 
>To: 
>Sent: Monday, January 01, 2001 11:38 PM
>Subject: Re: Joining the Brits
>
>
> >
> > > But if I was really looking for travel and adventure - remembering I 
>am
> > only
> > > going to be young once - then I would also consider joining the French
> > > Foreign Legion. Well, what‘s the diff? They must have a unit or two 
>for
> > > English speaking soldiers. Can‘t all be Germans and Spanish or Poles.
> >
> > I agree. The Legion has some of the toughest training in the world. They
>are
> > based all over the world including French Polynesia which sounds very 
>nice
> > in the middle of a Saskatchewan winter. They train extensively in the
>jungle
> > and desert as well as operating in Europe.
> >
> > As for the language, they operate in French regardless of the original
> > language of a Legionnaire. IIRC you learn to understand the orders 
>pretty
> > quickly and the gaps get filled in until you are fluent.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
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_________________________________________________________________________
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Bruce Williams" <Williabr@uregina.ca>* on *Tue, 2 Jan 2001 10:06:05 -0600*
> Hey Bruce, don‘t I know you?
>
> John Gow
If you were the John Gow in the N Sask R you do. I was with B Coy for a
while, also Sask D, SMDHQ and 16 SVC BN.
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## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Juno847627709@aol.com* on *Tue, 2 Jan 2001 12:25:19 EST*
Well, my understanding of most of the statements made which I might‘ve taken 
offense to, is now far greater.
    Someone on this list said that they ‘worshipped‘ the Canadian Reg Force 
when they were in Cadets. Believe me, I know what you‘re saying. I‘m just 
wrapping up my career as a Sergeant, and I hear ya. I am well aware of the 
many unique talents of the Canadian soldier. His versatility, competence, and 
our military history.- I know it‘s  one of the finest military histories on 
earth. 
    Canada is a country, unto itself. I just tend to feel a great tie to the 
throne. I wasn‘t just picking a ‘country of convenience‘, ..- I felt that 
joining the Brits wouldn‘t be joining a ‘foreign‘ army,- just the ‘spearhead‘ 
of the British Commonwealth. I would never DREAM of enlisting in any other 
army, anywhere, but the British.
    Yes Jay, ‘Queen and Country‘ is the long and short of it.
    Paschandaeleforgive the spelling Vimy Ridge, The Somme, Dieppe, Juno 
Beachhence my email address. The list goes on.
    Very glad my point of view and yours are more fully understood now.
            -Matt B.
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## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Ian Edwards" <iedwards@home.com>* on *Tue, 2 Jan 2001 20:32:15 -0700*
John, I don‘t want to pounce on you for your view of history, as I agree
with your sentiments.
But a portion of your claims about Canada‘s role in two events are either
open for discussion or can be disagreed with. And Mil Hist discussion is one
of the purposes of this list.
I refer to your statements on Vimy and also the 1956 UNEF.
I don‘t think that Canada‘s major part in Vimy Ridge the Brits call it the
3rd battle of Ypres IIRC played other than a very small part in hastening
the end of the Great War. But it was important TO US  as that it was the
first time that Canada attacked together and triumphed together as a Corps.
We still had a Brit, Byng,  in command at the time Currie didn‘t receive
command until a few months later. Certainly, the Canadians were not
expected by the Brits to be successful in the battle. But from that moment
on, Canada‘s participation in the war, as a larger formation, permitted us a
small "say" in  the conduct of world affairs. That was in April 1917.
Canada‘s efforts in the closing months of the war, 1918, were outstanding as
were the Australians we, over here, don‘t hear much about their valiant
efforts on the Western Front.
Now, Canada‘s foreign policy at the time of the Suez Crisis, can arguably be
said to be shameful. Before I get into my rant I wish to make it clear that
I have nothing but admiration for our soldiers in the UNEF. When I took my
basic equivalent of QL2 in 1959 my Platoon Sergeant had not long before
served in the UNEF and Korea prior to that. And that was Canada‘s first
attempt at peace keeping rather than the euphemism peace making. But what
L B Pearson did to our allies was stab them in the back. Remember: the
Brits, the French and the Israeli‘s were within a few HOURS of reaching
Cairo and putting "paid" to Nasser. Pearson refused to back our Allies, the
Brits and the French. The Americans were neutral because they faced an
election in a few months and the US President, Eisenhower, was a "lame duck"
and couldn‘t make any strategic moves. Russia had a revolution in her back
yard - within a few weeks open rebellion in Hungary in particular. Russia‘s
hands were thus tied and she couldn‘t have intervened in the Mid East. But
Australia, too, sided with Canada more the shame.  Winning the battle, but
without Western World support, the Brits and the French were forced to call
it off. A World War in the making? Not at all!!!
The consequence? The toothless Brits and the French saw a hastening of the
break up of their overseas empires. Anthony Eden was forced to resign as
Brit PM. Open revolt amongst the French troops and the return of deGaulle.
The empires were going to be closed down anyway as the Americans had forced
the Brits, in 1942, to agree to giving up India at the end of the WW2, as a
condition for American support for British war policy in the Mediterranean
and elsewhere. It was in America‘s interest to see the end of European
colonialism.
Yes, the empires would have gone anyway, but they might have devolved with
less haste and better consequences for the former colonies, with their
ill-drawn map boundaries that suited European needs rather than acknowledge
tribal realities. Can anyone argue that most of Africa, in particular, is
better off today than in colonial times? Yes, some probably could, having
listened to Liberal propaganda for 44 years.    End of Rant for Today.
----- Original Message -----
From: Gow 
To: 
Sent: Monday, January 01, 2001 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: Joining the Brits
snip, snip
> Regrettably, that same Constitution separated us somewhat from the
UK...I‘m
> no political science type to get into this, others may hopefully comment,
> but we are an independent nation, and that separation began when the
> Canadian Corps of volunteer civilians stormed Vimy Ridge, an "impossible"
> task, and created a situation that ended the Great War.  We affirmed it in
> September 1939, when Parliment debated going to war, instead of being at
war
> by action of the UK government.  We proved it in 1956, when Lester Pearson
> prevented a world war by solving the Suez Crisis by the formation of
UNEF...
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## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"dave" <dave.newcombe@home.com>* on *Wed, 3 Jan 2001 16:26:23 -0800*
You can only join the Legion from French soil.......You can join from St.
Pierre  Michilon sp...Which is why they have a fair number of Newf‘s as
members.
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## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"dave" <dave.newcombe@home.com>* on *Wed, 3 Jan 2001 16:35:03 -0800*
As the Russian Premier threatened Nuclear retaliation on Paris and London,
maybe Pearson did prevent WWIII, We will never know.  Stabbing our allies in
the back?...that is a debatable point, as they surprised NATO with this
attack on Egypt.
Not my opinion, just fodder for debate!!!
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## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Wed, 17 Jan 2001 15:49:57 -0000*
Ambition is a deeply personal impulse.
- Joan
----Original Message Follows----
From: Juno847627709@aol.com
Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
Subject: Re: Joining the Brits
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 22:47:24 EST
Let‘s get something straight: I‘m not looking to be a mercenary.
                             I‘m not planning on ‘selling out‘
                         I don‘t give two sh*ts about having the ‘coolest
looking‘ gear
     I am a frusterated Canadian. I see our traditions, our past, our
principles, our soldiers, and even our ‘nationhood‘ get bashed every day. I
don‘t claim to know HALF as much as Mr. Gow, Mr. MacFarlane, Mr. Schepens,
Mr. Devries, or anyone on this list.
     My next statements will seem to you like lies, stories, and basically
just anything I could think of to save face. Not true.
     - - - - I am a very proud Canadian. I love it here. Our civilian
opportunites are unparalled. We can do ANYTHING we want to with work. I know
that. We are an accepting nation. We have immigrants at the door step all 
the
time because it‘s hard to keep the fact that we are one of the best 
countries
in the world, a secret. As a Canadian, I am fiercely devoted to the Canadian
people, military, and well-being. Also, as a Canadian I am almost equally as
devoted to the British Crown. My Monarch. My Queen. Whether I make my career
here in Canada, or over in GB, that will remain. In Canada, it seems as
though, with the vast majority or people, nothing is sacred. I feel that is
an impression which we may give to frequently. Widely, our military is
bashed, and not taken care of. Although that is, to some degree, the case
everywhere, it‘s my understanding and opinion that things of that nature are
not as common in Britain.
     Sirs and soldiers,: I don‘t care about the title "Airborne Ranger" I
don‘t look at some poster and say, "Wow, I want to look like that guy with
the Maroon Beret and the Big Gun!"
     I‘m rambling, but I don‘t know how to express this. The word 
‘mercenary‘
in its very essence is disgusting, and I‘m uphauled that some might think I
should be, in any way, associated with that title.
     This is not some little kid who evaluates how cool uniforms look, or 
what
the payroll is.
     I am well aware that this list does not revolve around me, and I am
sincerely sorry for sharing so many personaly views, and taking up your time
to yak about myself.
     I love our Country even as much as the rest here. No, I haven‘t bled 
for
it yet, and no, I haven‘t had to go to some God-forsaken place in her name
yet, but my time too will come.
     If anyone thinks that myself, Adam, or anyone else who may one day go 
to
Britain is in someway being  some kind of a traitor or mercenary, he‘s
gravely mistaken.
     I‘d do anything to make you realise how much I love this place, but it
doesn‘t matter.
     Sure, I‘ll ‘give my head a shake‘, and maybe realise I‘m doing 
something
wrong, or just plain dumb. But till then, I hope no one makes any more
blanket statements about what one might perceive as a ‘childish‘ interest in
the UK‘s Forces.
     I don‘t know what else to say.
                             matt
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## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Sun, 28 Jan 2001 01:16:10 -0500*
Giving it a try, to see if it works
Found this communication in a clean off attempt, Ian.
In a nutshell, you are being a little too open to a historical kick to the
crotch...I think
So lets get to it and throw some ideas around...
We agree on the base of my comments..we are Canadians, different from the
Brits, the USA, the frogs etc...okay.
About Vimy, well, those were Canadians that did it.  A certain number may
have been ex-brits not arguing, but very few returned to the so-called
Mother Country...at the day and subsequently, the manpower was Canadian...
Yes, yes, no one can argue, Byng was a Brit, first, last and always.  Nobody
with more than two years experience will fight that a Canadian General
Officer is a bit of a qjuestion mark there are a few good ones...but they
do not have the strategic freedom of thought or planning, and those that do
either don‘t make General in the first place or at best are  System
anomaly...we are just not a warlike nation and do not have large formations
to "breed" General Officers...though we admittedly have more than our
share...
Speeding on through your appended communication, Australia is
mentioned...certainly, they are a parallel to Canada until 1941...when their
men were in Africa, and the apparent enemy was at their gates...so certainly
they look at things a fair bitdifferently than we do.  And here again, Vimy
was a success, and Gallipoli albeit for any number of reasons, including
Brit generalship of the day a failure...
Having addressed, or waved the recent red rag comment in front of your face,
lets get into Suez and the African "Mess"...because mess it is...kind words,
you‘ll admit...
Using "Force" to implement "national policy" is sort of Clauswitz in
theory...but the theorists and politicians had better be damn careful how
they do it...in my opinion, of course...
And in hindsight, implementing Force as a 19th century means of protecting
investment seems awfully silly now, doesn‘t it?
Given that I was only a year or two past bouncing from nut to nut at the
time, I defer to your wisdom you‘d have been in about Grade 7, but I‘d have
to agree, my brain was not fully formed at the crucial date...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian Edwards" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 10:32 PM
Subject: Re: Joining the Brits2
> John, I don‘t want to pounce on you for your view of history, as I agree
> with your sentiments.
> But a portion of your claims about Canada‘s role in two events are either
> open for discussion or can be disagreed with. And Mil Hist discussion is
one
> of the purposes of this list.
>
> I refer to your statements on Vimy and also the 1956 UNEF.
>
> I don‘t think that Canada‘s major part in Vimy Ridge the Brits call it
the
> 3rd battle of Ypres IIRC played other than a very small part in
hastening
> the end of the Great War. But it was important TO US  as that it was the
> first time that Canada attacked together and triumphed together as a
Corps.
> We still had a Brit, Byng,  in command at the time Currie didn‘t receive
> command until a few months later. Certainly, the Canadians were not
> expected by the Brits to be successful in the battle. But from that moment
> on, Canada‘s participation in the war, as a larger formation, permitted us
a
> small "say" in  the conduct of world affairs. That was in April 1917.
> Canada‘s efforts in the closing months of the war, 1918, were outstanding
as
> were the Australians we, over here, don‘t hear much about their valiant
> efforts on the Western Front.
>
> Now, Canada‘s foreign policy at the time of the Suez Crisis, can arguably
be
> said to be shameful. Before I get into my rant I wish to make it clear
that
> I have nothing but admiration for our soldiers in the UNEF. When I took my
> basic equivalent of QL2 in 1959 my Platoon Sergeant had not long before
> served in the UNEF and Korea prior to that. And that was Canada‘s first
> attempt at peace keeping rather than the euphemism peace making. But
what
> L B Pearson did to our allies was stab them in the back. Remember: the
> Brits, the French and the Israeli‘s were within a few HOURS of reaching
> Cairo and putting "paid" to Nasser. Pearson refused to back our Allies,
the
> Brits and the French. The Americans were neutral because they faced an
> election in a few months and the US President, Eisenhower, was a "lame
duck"
> and couldn‘t make any strategic moves. Russia had a revolution in her back
> yard - within a few weeks open rebellion in Hungary in particular.
Russia‘s
> hands were thus tied and she couldn‘t have intervened in the Mid East. But
> Australia, too, sided with Canada more the shame.  Winning the battle,
but
> without Western World support, the Brits and the French were forced to
call
> it off. A World War in the making? Not at all!!!
>
> The consequence? The toothless Brits and the French saw a hastening of the
> break up of their overseas empires. Anthony Eden was forced to resign as
> Brit PM. Open revolt amongst the French troops and the return of deGaulle.
> The empires were going to be closed down anyway as the Americans had
forced
> the Brits, in 1942, to agree to giving up India at the end of the WW2, as
a
> condition for American support for British war policy in the Mediterranean
> and elsewhere. It was in America‘s interest to see the end of European
> colonialism.
>
> Yes, the empires would have gone anyway, but they might have devolved with
> less haste and better consequences for the former colonies, with their
> ill-drawn map boundaries that suited European needs rather than
acknowledge
> tribal realities. Can anyone argue that most of Africa, in particular, is
> better off today than in colonial times? Yes, some probably could, having
> listened to Liberal propaganda for 44 years.    End of Rant for Today.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gow 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, January 01, 2001 9:10 PM
> Subject: Re: Joining the Brits
>
>
> snip, snip
>
>
> > Regrettably, that same Constitution separated us somewhat from the
> UK...I‘m
> > no political science type to get into this, others may hopefully
comment,
> > but we are an independent nation, and that separation began when the
> > Canadian Corps of volunteer civilians stormed Vimy Ridge, an
"impossible"
> > task, and created a situation that ended the Great War.  We affirmed it
in
> > September 1939, when Parliment debated going to war, instead of being at
> war
> > by action of the UK government.  We proved it in 1956, when Lester
Pearson
> > prevented a world war by solving the Suez Crisis by the formation of
> UNEF...
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Ian Edwards" <iedwards@home.com>* on *Sun, 28 Jan 2001 10:57:36 -0700*
I don‘t understand anything that you‘ve written. Perhaps the time delay Jan
2 to 27 in your response makes it difficult for me to focus on the original
thread. But John, John, John, I‘ve been accused of being racist, but
"frogs"? Is that your slur term for the French?
----- Original Message -----
From: Gow 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2001 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: Joining the Brits2
> Giving it a try, to see if it works
>
> Found this communication in a clean off attempt, Ian.
>
> In a nutshell, you are being a little too open to a historical kick to the
> crotch...I think
>
> So lets get to it and throw some ideas around...
>
>
>
> We agree on the base of my comments..we are Canadians, different from the
> Brits, the USA, the frogs etc...okay.
>
> About Vimy, well, those were Canadians that did it.  A certain number may
> have been ex-brits not arguing, but very few returned to the so-called
> Mother Country...at the day and subsequently, the manpower was Canadian...
>
> Yes, yes, no one can argue, Byng was a Brit, first, last and always.
Nobody
> with more than two years experience will fight that a Canadian General
> Officer is a bit of a qjuestion mark there are a few good ones...but
they
> do not have the strategic freedom of thought or planning, and those that
do
> either don‘t make General in the first place or at best are  System
> anomaly...we are just not a warlike nation and do not have large
formations
> to "breed" General Officers...though we admittedly have more than our
> share...
>
> Speeding on through your appended communication, Australia is
> mentioned...certainly, they are a parallel to Canada until 1941...when
their
> men were in Africa, and the apparent enemy was at their gates...so
certainly
> they look at things a fair bitdifferently than we do.  And here again,
Vimy
> was a success, and Gallipoli albeit for any number of reasons, including
> Brit generalship of the day a failure...
>
> Having addressed, or waved the recent red rag comment in front of your
face,
> lets get into Suez and the African "Mess"...because mess it is...kind
words,
> you‘ll admit...
>
> Using "Force" to implement "national policy" is sort of Clauswitz in
> theory...but the theorists and politicians had better be damn careful how
> they do it...in my opinion, of course...
>
> And in hindsight, implementing Force as a 19th century means of protecting
> investment seems awfully silly now, doesn‘t it?
>
> Given that I was only a year or two past bouncing from nut to nut at the
> time, I defer to your wisdom you‘d have been in about Grade 7, but I‘d
have
> to agree, my brain was not fully formed at the crucial date...
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ian Edwards" 
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 10:32 PM
> Subject: Re: Joining the Brits2
>
>
> > John, I don‘t want to pounce on you for your view of history, as I agree
> > with your sentiments.
> > But a portion of your claims about Canada‘s role in two events are
either
> > open for discussion or can be disagreed with. And Mil Hist discussion is
> one
> > of the purposes of this list.
> >
> > I refer to your statements on Vimy and also the 1956 UNEF.
> >
> > I don‘t think that Canada‘s major part in Vimy Ridge the Brits call it
> the
> > 3rd battle of Ypres IIRC played other than a very small part in
> hastening
> > the end of the Great War. But it was important TO US  as that it was the
> > first time that Canada attacked together and triumphed together as a
> Corps.
> > We still had a Brit, Byng,  in command at the time Currie didn‘t
receive
> > command until a few months later. Certainly, the Canadians were not
> > expected by the Brits to be successful in the battle. But from that
moment
> > on, Canada‘s participation in the war, as a larger formation, permitted
us
> a
> > small "say" in  the conduct of world affairs. That was in April 1917.
> > Canada‘s efforts in the closing months of the war, 1918, were
outstanding
> as
> > were the Australians we, over here, don‘t hear much about their valiant
> > efforts on the Western Front.
> >
> > Now, Canada‘s foreign policy at the time of the Suez Crisis, can
arguably
> be
> > said to be shameful. Before I get into my rant I wish to make it clear
> that
> > I have nothing but admiration for our soldiers in the UNEF. When I took
my
> > basic equivalent of QL2 in 1959 my Platoon Sergeant had not long
before
> > served in the UNEF and Korea prior to that. And that was Canada‘s
first
> > attempt at peace keeping rather than the euphemism peace making. But
> what
> > L B Pearson did to our allies was stab them in the back. Remember: the
> > Brits, the French and the Israeli‘s were within a few HOURS of reaching
> > Cairo and putting "paid" to Nasser. Pearson refused to back our Allies,
> the
> > Brits and the French. The Americans were neutral because they faced an
> > election in a few months and the US President, Eisenhower, was a "lame
> duck"
> > and couldn‘t make any strategic moves. Russia had a revolution in her
back
> > yard - within a few weeks open rebellion in Hungary in particular.
> Russia‘s
> > hands were thus tied and she couldn‘t have intervened in the Mid East.
But
> > Australia, too, sided with Canada more the shame.  Winning the battle,
> but
> > without Western World support, the Brits and the French were forced to
> call
> > it off. A World War in the making? Not at all!!!
> >
> > The consequence? The toothless Brits and the French saw a hastening of
the
> > break up of their overseas empires. Anthony Eden was forced to resign as
> > Brit PM. Open revolt amongst the French troops and the return of
deGaulle.
> > The empires were going to be closed down anyway as the Americans had
> forced
> > the Brits, in 1942, to agree to giving up India at the end of the WW2,
as
> a
> > condition for American support for British war policy in the
Mediterranean
> > and elsewhere. It was in America‘s interest to see the end of European
> > colonialism.
> >
> > Yes, the empires would have gone anyway, but they might have devolved
with
> > less haste and better consequences for the former colonies, with their
> > ill-drawn map boundaries that suited European needs rather than
> acknowledge
> > tribal realities. Can anyone argue that most of Africa, in particular,
is
> > better off today than in colonial times? Yes, some probably could,
having
> > listened to Liberal propaganda for 44 years.    End of Rant for Today.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Gow 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Monday, January 01, 2001 9:10 PM
> > Subject: Re: Joining the Brits
> >
> >
> > snip, snip
> >
> >
> > > Regrettably, that same Constitution separated us somewhat from the
> > UK...I‘m
> > > no political science type to get into this, others may hopefully
> comment,
> > > but we are an independent nation, and that separation began when the
> > > Canadian Corps of volunteer civilians stormed Vimy Ridge, an
> "impossible"
> > > task, and created a situation that ended the Great War.  We affirmed
it
> in
> > > September 1939, when Parliment debated going to war, instead of being
at
> > war
> > > by action of the UK government.  We proved it in 1956, when Lester
> Pearson
> > > prevented a world war by solving the Suez Crisis by the formation of
> > UNEF...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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