# REG VS RES NCM INF PAY



## expeditionary (22 Feb 2016)

Hi guys! 

I'm getting into the Infantry, though can't make the call between REGULAR VS RESERVE FORCE. 

*A little help: Crucial missing information in my analysis is the deductions that'd be made in the form of rations+quarters and/or additional danger pay such as tours.*

What I need help dissecting here is this question: *What's my take away at the end of each month?* So they're two cases here:


*1) REG FORCE - THREE (3) YEAR VIE *

*REG - YEAR/INCREMENT 1*
Monthly = $2,806
Yearly = $2,806 x 12 months = $33,672
Taxes = $4,554
After Tax Yearly Income = $29,118
After Tax Monthly Income = $29,118 / 12 months = $2,426.5

*REG - YEAR/INCREMENT 2*
Monthly = $3,430
Yearly = $3,430 x 12 months = $41,160
Taxes = $6,066
After Tax Yearly Income = $35,094
After Tax Monthly Income = $35,094 / 12 months = $2,924.5

*REG - YEAR/INCREMENT 3*
Monthly = $4,120
Yearly = $4,120 x 12 months = $49,440
Taxes = $8,397
After Tax Yearly Income = $41,043
After Tax Monthly Income = $41,043 / 12 months = $3,420.5

*2) RES FORCE - THREE (3) YEAR INVOLVEMENT *

*RES - YEAR/INCREMENT 1*
Daily = $90.30
Half Daily = $45.15

Evening Weekly Parade = $45.15 x 44 = $1,986.6
Weekend Parade = $180.6 x 10 = $1,806
Summer Course = $90.30 x 60 = $5,418
Yearly = $9,210 (5,418+1,806+1,986)
Taxes = $0.00
After Tax Yearly Income = $9,210
After Tax Monthly Income = $9,210 / 12 months = $767.7

*RES - YEAR/INCREMENT 2*
Daily = $102.32
Half Daily = $51.16

Evening Weekly Parade = $51.16 x 44 = $2,251.04
Weekend Parade = $204.64 x 10 = $2,046.4
Summer Course = $102.32 x 60 = $6,139.2
Yearly = $10,436 (2,251.04+2,046.4+6,139.2)
Taxes = $29
After Tax Yearly Income = $10,407
After Tax Monthly Income = $10,436 / 12 months = $867.25

*RES - YEAR/INCREMENT 3*
Daily = $115.14
Half Daily = $57.57

Evening Weekly Parade = $57.57 x 44 = $2,533.08
Weekend Parade = $230.28 x 10 = $2,302.8
Summer Course = $115.14 x 60 = $6,908.4
Yearly = $11,744.28 (2,533.08+2,302.8+6,908.4)
Taxes = $158
After Tax Yearly Income = $11,587
After Tax Monthly Income = $11,587 / 12 months = $965.6


AVERAGE MONTHLY TAKE HOME AFTER THREE YEARS
REG = $2,923.7
RES = $866.7

A difference of $2,056.97, favourably of REG.



ASSUMPTIONS: 
[list type=decimal]
[*]RANK STAYS AT PRIVATE FOR THREE (3) YEARS
[*]PAY INCREMENT LEVELS INCREASE YEARLY ON DATE OF ENROLLMENT
[*]PROVINCIAL TAXES PAID IN ONTARIO
[*]RES - PARADE ONE NIGHT WEEKLY - ONE WEEKEND(TWO DAYS) MONTHLY - 60 DAY COURSE SUMMER TIME
[*]RES - WEEKLY PARADE PAY = HALF OF DAY RATE
[*]RES - # OF PARADES - WEEKLY: 44 - Weekend: 10
[/list]

SOURCE: 
REG FORCE PAY
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-pay/reg-force-ncm-class-c-rates.page

RES FORCE PAY
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-pay/ncm-class-a-b-service-rates.page

TAX CALCULATOR
https://simpletax.ca/calculator

*Disclaimer: My decision isn't based solely on pay, though as the lubricant of society, and the constraints I currently face, it's a crucial factor in making an informed decision.*


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## runormal (22 Feb 2016)

If you don't go reg-f what are you going to be doing in your spare time? A critical factor in how much you will make in the reserves is how available you will be for taskings/courses in the summer and well as various times throughout the training year.

Edit:
The reserves are great for people who have something else to keep them occupied (School or work).


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## LightFighter (22 Feb 2016)

If you want to do this full time, join the Regular Force. There isn't a great deal of full time jobs in the Reserves(also, depending on where you live, there may not be any positions nearby), and you wouldn't be eligible for them for awhile. Applying for a full time position is a competition, so you may not be able to get a full time job even if you are eligible. Keep in mind, these jobs won't be a Infantry job, but more admin, such as a file clerk at the CFRC.

Say in a couple years, you are a Cpl and do get a 3 year Class B job, you will still be making less than someone in the Regular Force.


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## expeditionary (22 Feb 2016)

runormal said:
			
		

> A critical factor in how much you will make in the reserves is how available you will be for taskings/courses in the summer and well as various times throughout the training year.



That's exactly what I'm after. 

If I take the RES route, I'll be available for taskings and courses throughout the year. 

What kind of taskings (duty, time period, etc.) are available as an NCM INF RES?


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## expeditionary (22 Feb 2016)

LightFighter said:
			
		

> Keep in mind, these jobs won't be a Infantry job, but more admin, such as a file clerk at the CFRC.


Ugh. Say no more.


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## Eye In The Sky (22 Feb 2016)

Interesting that you are asking about infantry stuff, but you have the 405 Sqn motto in your signature block.   ^-^


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## runormal (22 Feb 2016)

expeditionary said:
			
		

> That's exactly what I'm after.
> 
> If I take the RES route, I'll be available for taskings and courses throughout the year.
> 
> What kind of taskings (duty, time period, etc.) are available as an NCM INF RES?



No idea really, I've seen the odd Pat leave 6 month contract in Pet or w/e, but you had to pay your own way to get there in the first place as well as R/Q. In the sigs world it depends we various things here and there and there Class-A/B Junkies that jump around from one "meaningless" tasking to the next. I think it would be ok to do for the short term but I wouldn't advise it for the long haul. 

I've posted this in a different thread so I'll quote my self.



			
				runormal said:
			
		

> It depends what you want:
> 
> If you want _fairly_ consistent part time work with the potential of unstable contracts/tasking (CLS B's) and random CLS A taskings then join the reserves.
> if you want full time consistent work join the reg-f.
> ...



Based on you said it sounds like you don't have anything else going on. I think you'd be a fool to join the reserves instead of the reg-f and this is coming from a reservist. I was studying at university while i was in reserves. Now that I'll be graduating, I'll be working during the week while remaining a reservist. It is excellent supplementary income, but I wouldn't directly rely on it to pay the bills.  

Are you uneasy about the reg-f for some reason? Family? Moving? Girl/Boyfriend?

Edit: If you debating between school + reserves or reg-f I would say that there are pros and cons to and both options but I wouldn't join the reserves with the intention of trying to make a part-time job a full time job. Likewise most long term cls bs are cpl and above which is going to be at least 2.5 years.  You might be able to get something as a Pte (T), but that is a might.

Edit 2: from forces.ca



> HOW LONG DO I HAVE TO SERVE?
> Service in the Reserve Force is voluntary and for an undefined period. Most Reservists serve on a part-time basis and most have non-military, full-time careers or are full-time students.


http://www.forces.ca/en/page/careeroptions-123#tab3


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## expeditionary (23 Feb 2016)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Interesting that you are asking about infantry stuff, but you have the 405 Sqn motto in your signature block.   ^-^



No idea what you're talking about. Here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNiie_zmSr8. Enjoy.


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## expeditionary (23 Feb 2016)

Hey runormal! Thanks so much for the much needed answering and insight!



			
				runormal said:
			
		

> I think it would be ok to do for the short term but I wouldn't advise it for the long haul.



Agreed. The plan here is three years.



			
				runormal said:
			
		

> Based on you said it sounds like you don't have anything else going on...It is excellent supplementary income, but I wouldn't directly rely on it to pay the bills.



RES will definitely not be primary income!



			
				runormal said:
			
		

> Are you uneasy about the reg-f for some reason? Family? Moving? Girl/Boyfriend?



Yes. I'm between RES (living in big city, pursuing my equally important passion of pursuing arts/school, being with my family in their last years/old age) and REG (being financially secure, living and doing life with likeminded people, and really feeling like being "in" - this is personal).


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## expeditionary (23 Feb 2016)

From this http://army.ca/forums/threads/13533/post-60522.html#msg60522 thread, I found this: 



			
				Cpl Bloggins said:
			
		

> ...when you‘re out in the field you get 16 bucks of ‘field operation allowance‘ every day you‘re out there...



If true, this fact adds ~$450 per month, or ~$900 per annum in my RES calculations. Though to balance this out, I'm sure it'd be true as well for REG, and we'd be in the field more days in a year than RES, but still, it all adds up.

Not bad. 



I'm still not convinced that REG is the best way to go right now (even though I want it to be!), and by searching through the forums, I can only find people asking the same questions and nothing comprehensive that lists the deductions in pay. Hmm...


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## expeditionary (23 Feb 2016)

Hi guys!

I'm looking to get into INF 00010 NCM, and although information exists on what the pay is, information on deductions is a little scarce.

Side note: I'm doing some research into a decision being made between joining the REG vs. RES force. The discussion and income schedule is is over here: http://army.ca/forums/threads/122173/post-1419581.html#msg1419581

The questions here today are some I can't find over the forum - I've searched (hopefully well enough!). 
[list type=decimal]
[*]What are "normal" deductions from pay no one escapes?
[*]What are a few examples of out of pocket expenses?
[*]As deductions, are Rations and Quarters the same across the country, in every base?
[/list]


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## Oldgateboatdriver (23 Feb 2016)

expeditionary said:
			
		

> Hi guys!
> 
> I'm looking to get into INF 00010 NCM, and although information exists on what the pay is, information on deductions is a little scarce.
> 
> ...


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## kratz (23 Feb 2016)

Why do you need a new thread with the same topic title, just to ask similar questions to what you admit you asked in an earlier thread of your own. The questions have been asked and answered multiple times in the past. Ultimately you can make an educated ballpark guess, but there are too many variables to nail down exact answers that you are expecting from this unofficial source.

To answer today's questions:
1.  Income Tax, CPP, EI, Mess Dues (both RegF and PRes)
2.  Haircuts, shoe polish and personal travel expenses not reimbursed by TD (individual choices)
3.  No. Are other prices the same across the country? (Gas, rent, food)


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## sarahsmom (23 Feb 2016)

Also the mess dues vary from base to base and mess to mess. But you cannot opt out.


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## expeditionary (23 Feb 2016)

Cheers! So pertinent to the military, it's basically just rations and quarters (rent and food) and mess dues.


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## sarahsmom (23 Feb 2016)

There is also superannuation and SISIP. And PSHCP if you have a family and choose to opt in.


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## expeditionary (23 Feb 2016)

kratz said:
			
		

> ...Why do you need a new thread with the same topic title...



Threads merged.


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## expeditionary (23 Feb 2016)

paleomedic said:
			
		

> There is also superannuation and SISIP. And PSHCP if you have a family and choose to opt in.



Wow wow wow! Lingo! *aggressively starts searching acronyms*
...
Cool! Great insight on the possibilities! Thanks!


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## expeditionary (23 Feb 2016)

It looks like this https://army.ca/forums/threads/33594.0.html is my best best for finding the answer to the Rations and Quarters questions.


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## expeditionary (23 Feb 2016)

Wait. kratz. You marked me (a new user, less than a week old) spam? This thread was started by me for helping out others and myself realize what actually comes into your pocket at the end of the day, and answering questions I couldn't find, and yet another to augment the initial discussion. The answers of life and reasoning for life are out there, but people still ask them in many venues, and some (many) don't know, but say anything, yet the wise (few) ones that don't know, don't answer, something you've failed to demonstrate. It helps to no degree that your wise remarks to "todays questions" (as if I've my posts were a chore to you) contributed little to no significant insight. 



			
				kratz said:
			
		

> Why do you need a new thread with the same topic title, just to ask similar questions to what you admit you asked in an earlier thread of your own. The questions have been asked and answered multiple times in the past.



I admitted in that new thread that I searched and attempted. Maybe you could have suggested I use Google, which I later did, and which a respectful admin gave me hints to use in a PM, which I'm posting here to help out the community, and not degrade it. 

Google Search. site:army.ca (and your own content). 
For example: www.google.ca -> site:army.ca rations and quarters -> Voila! First Link!



			
				kratz said:
			
		

> Ultimately you can make an educated ballpark guess, but there are too many variables to nail down exact answers that you are expecting from this unofficial source.



Maybe they're too many variables (for _some_ to handle). I'll be dammed, I want to know them. 



			
				kratz said:
			
		

> To answer today's questions:
> 1.  Income Tax, CPP, EI, Mess Dues (both RegF and PRes)
> 2.  Haircuts, shoe polish and personal travel expenses not reimbursed by TD (individual choices)
> 3.  No. Are other prices the same across the country? (Gas, rent, food)



1. You had seen my other topic, so you saw I calculated income tax. 
2. Thanks for the insight. Being Green, I'd totally expect a military that says, "You have to have a hair cut/shaven head, but we ain't paying for it!" That makes sense! *sigh*
3. No. Real estate prices are not the same across the country, although so aren't the cost of low-skilled labour workers wages!!!

It's fair to assume, as our government posts wages for the position you'll enter and be paid (nationwide), you'll be paying consistent deductions (on that nationwide pay) regardless of geographic positing! Said in another way, the military is a federal job, so you're federal pay, not provincial/geographical, but nationally; as a job working at Tim Hortons is different in Toronto than Fort McMurray (logically: cost of living differs, so should pay. Does the military follow this principle?)

Anyway, forget the assumption, for when fighting (wanting to fight) for your country, one shouldn't be concerned about how much money is pocketed end of they day - though, wait, shouldn't it?; to fight only to understand ones pay, already we've lost the battle inside before we've started. - This is an example of the minds (rules writers) failing (or not caring) of the muscles (fighters) in our society. - Classical History in Modern Times 101 

*These considerations effect adversely or gainfully financial decisions we make day to day for life, and if we cannot contribute positively to the conversation with quantitative information about numbers, please, don't bother.*​


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## kratz (23 Feb 2016)

Nobody can quantify an individual's situation down to the dime.

A smart rule of thumb is to never include allowances (Field pay, SDA, PLD ect...) into your base pay.
Too often new sailors do so when applying for loans and when the reason for the allowances cease, 
they are still left paying for the loans.

Other items from your demands have not been mentioned either:
- PRes: Income- PILL 9% vs annual leave (2 days for every 30 worked)
- PRes: Income - Random potential for GD or extra drill and work parties
- PRes: Expense - PSCHCP personal (and/or family) and PRes dental plan.


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## expeditionary (23 Feb 2016)

kratz said:
			
		

> A smart rule of thumb is to never include allowances (Field pay, SDA, PLD ect...) into your base pay.
> Too often new sailors do so when applying for loans and when the reason for the allowances cease,
> they are still left paying for the loans.



Right on. Regarding the allowances to qualify for loans, then falling short on absence of said allowance, though still liable for payments based on allowance income, this brings importance to very important financial mindfulness. 

Such does in the same respect in this example: 
[list type=decimal]
[*]Posted to Base X - Rations and Quarters $1.0
[*]Buy car at Base X with loan, on base pay only.
[*]Income - Base X R/Q($1.0) = disposable - car loan = Positive
[*]Relocated to Base Y - Rations and Quarters $2.0
[*]Income - Base Y R/Q($2.0) = disposable - car loan = Negative
[/list]
Obviously, we're in trouble here. 

Now, my question is, what's the variance/range, low-high, one can expect to pay for rations and quarters across the country? 
Are we talking a range from $1.00 - $600.00 or $500.00 - $4,000. Said differently, for a single soldier, new to the military, an REG NCM INF (PTE), posted anywhere across the country, what can he/she be expected to be paying in rations and quarters?



			
				kratz said:
			
		

> Nobody can quantify an individual's situation down to the dime.



As individuals, this holds merit in everything. I'm looking for the status quo here.



			
				kratz said:
			
		

> - PRes: Expense - PSCHCP personal (and/or family) and PRes dental plan.



Wait. Voluntary expense, right?


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## kratz (23 Feb 2016)

Yes. The PRes PSHCP and Dental plan are voluntary, but are variables that affect individual net pay.


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## Rheostatic (23 Feb 2016)

There's no cost associated with the PRes dental plan.


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## BinRat55 (23 Feb 2016)

Lol!! This is quite interesting... my only question to expeditionary (which my have been answered here and I overlooked it) would be why are you attempting to "vet" semantics? At the beginning of this thread you broke down you monthly pay over three increments for both Reg and Res. You already know that your pay as a Res is 85% daily what a Reg force member comensurate to that rank. I would want the other 15%. When I joined, I did something similar as you. It looked like this:

Gotta pay for car
Gotta pay for beer
Gotta pay for smokes
Gotta get the hell away from family

Join Army.


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## expeditionary (24 Feb 2016)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Gotta pay for car
> Gotta get the hell away from family
> Join Army.



Yup, I just got back from being away for a long time. It's been two days and I gotta get the hell away from family. Join Army sounds really good right now.


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## Ludoc (24 Feb 2016)

> ASSUMPTIONS:
> [list type=decimal]
> [*]RANK STAYS AT PRIVATE FOR THREE (3) YEARS
> [*]PAY INCREMENT LEVELS INCREASE YEARLY ON DATE OF ENROLLMENT[/list]
> ...



Your methodology is flawed. Tax rates and cost of living swing drastically between provinces. Except in the broadest sense, trying to make cost comparison of between the Reg Force and Reserves without taking those costs into consideration is a waste of your time. Especially, considering you probably won't end up in Ontario (Only two of the Army's 9 Infantry Battalions are in Ontario). You have also failed to take into account the potential financial costs and benefits of moving. Which you will most certainly very early in your career.


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## BinRat55 (24 Feb 2016)

Also take into consideration that as a Reserve the chances of a Class B in your first three years are slim. So, your annual will be significantly lower than a first year Reg force Pte... more money, higher tax bracket...


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## expeditionary (7 Mar 2016)

Ludoc said:
			
		

> Tax rates and cost of living swing drastically between provinces.



Yes, though Ontario does hold an above-average tax rate and cost of living which would represent the high side of my expenditure.



			
				Ludoc said:
			
		

> You have also failed to take into account the potential financial costs and benefits of moving. Which you will most certainly very early in your career.



I don't have anything I need moved. I don't own anything of significant size or value. 





			
				BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Also take into consideration that as a Reserve the chances of a Class B in your first three years are slim.



Noted. I wasn't interested in Class B.



			
				BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Reg force Pte... more money, higher tax bracket...



Yup, the tax bracket eat up is part of why I'm doing this. I'm finding out how much more is _actually_gained (financially), REG vs RES.


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## Jarnhamar (7 Mar 2016)

Long story short forget the pennies. 

If you want a full time job that pays your bills go reg force.

If you want a part time job that will pay some bills where you have to fight tooth and nail for jobs, against people with 10 15 or 20 years experience on you, tours to Afghanistan and the ability to write memos convincing the chain of command if they don't get X tasking (instead of you) their life will explode, join the reserves.


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## krimynal (7 Mar 2016)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Long story short forget the pennies.
> 
> If you want a full time job that pays your bills go reg force.
> 
> If you want a part time job that will pay some bills where you have to fight tooth and nail for jobs, against people with 10 15 or 20 years experience on you, tours to Afghanistan and the ability to write memos convincing the chain of command if they don't get X tasking (instead of you) their life will explode, join the reserves.



Trust me joining the reserves with the hopes of working full time is basically the worst Idea ever ....

Been there , done that 

And now I released and I am applying again for reg forces in April !


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## expeditionary (7 Mar 2016)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Long story short forget the pennies.



Yea, this is what's it's coming to. Whatever the pay will be, it'll be better than minimum wage.



			
				krimynal said:
			
		

> applying again for reg forces in April !



I think I'll join you on that!


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## Jarnhamar (7 Mar 2016)

expeditionary said:
			
		

> Yea, this is what's it's coming to. Whatever the pay will be, it'll be better than minimum wage.


Good ol'green welfare.


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## Krissa (7 Mar 2016)

Wow! I admire your tenacity trying to figure this all out. However, there are so many other things to consider too.

For example- the opportunities to advance, learn, lead and gain work experience can differ.  But in both res and reg you will add to your resume, learn resilience and flexibility, humour and team work. 

Have you considered the pension amount at end of service? 

My husband joined as a very young man, to get out of town, make some cash and SERVE others. He made terrible money at first and put miles on his car visiting his girlfriend back home ( me) . He bought a house, rented rooms to other corporals-  sold it. Bought a house, sold it, repeat at each posting. Lawyer and real estate fees paid. 4 tours with amazing danger pay. One IR posting back when it was a viable option financially. Today? Making better money than most of our civilian friends, living in a lake front home, paying for his son's university, and 26 years of pension coming his way soon. Not one week of unemployment. Oh and still married to me.

He hadn't planned any of that out. Not one bit of it. Happy? You bet! 

Imagine! A divorce, a sick child, a catastrophic injury, a poor sale on a house, cancer -- all were the roll of the dice and out of my husband's control. How different would his finances be if luck hadn't been on his side.  :2c:


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## BinRat55 (8 Mar 2016)

expeditionary said:
			
		

> Noted. I wasn't interested in Class B.



I'm a little confused... maybe I am reading it wrong - if you're not interested in Class B, then why are you even doing math (comparing your pay at Class A to a Reg force job is 10s and 10s and 10s of thousands in difference...)

What else in the Res would you be interested in?


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## DAA (8 Mar 2016)

Here's a breakdown of what you will make at BMQ.


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## BinRat55 (8 Mar 2016)

Wow!! I made a quarter of that in MY first year! Actually, I think I was in for 3 before I was pulling down THAT kind of coin!!

But see, here's the thing - that 2800 a month goes to over 6000 a month in a few (cough**20**) short years!

Reg force is where it's at baby!! Army alllllll the way too!! I have had the absolute honor and pleasure to meet, abuse and lose friends that I will remember forever.


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## BinRat55 (8 Mar 2016)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Wow!! I made a quarter of that in MY first year! Actually, I think I was in for 3 before I was pulling down THAT kind of coin!!
> 
> But see, here's the thing - that 2800 a month goes to over 6000 a month in a few (cough**20**) short years!
> 
> Reg force is where it's at baby!! Army alllllll the way too!! I have had the absolute honor and pleasure to meet, abuse and lose friends that I will remember forever.



And yes - many of the cool kids weren't just Army. I know many airmen/women and sailors who I would float down a river for... but watch out for them sailor-types... odd bunch them guys!


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## expeditionary (31 Mar 2016)

Fantastic! 

Thank you DAA for the fantastically informative post! We have something to work on!



*Pay During Initial Training*

*Private Pay Incentive (PI) 1 = $2,806.00
Deductions = $1,437.14
Net Pay Single = $1,368.86

BMQ = 12 weeks = Three (3) Months
BMQ - Land = One (1) Month
BOQT = 17 Weeks = 4.25 months - round to Four (4) Months
Total Time (initial) Training = ~Eight (8.25) months* *

Time (8.0 - months) * Net Single Pay ($1,368.86) = $10,950.88**



Assume: 
[list type=decimal]
[*]Pay and Deductions stay *roughly*_ (+/- 10%) the same during eight months and various postings.
[/list]

* That's 22% (approx. 1/5) of a Three (3) year VIE - substantial. 
** Considering after basic necessities met, this is grand money! 
_


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## Nfld Sapper (31 Mar 2016)

IIRC BMQ-Land is rolled into Inf DP1 Trades course so you will go from BMQ-Common to Inf DP 1....


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## expeditionary (31 Mar 2016)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> IIRC BMQ-Land is rolled into Inf DP1 Trades course so you will go from BMQ-Common to Inf DP 1....



Hmm...interesting, I was just reading up on it. (source http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/training-prof-dev/non-commissioned-members.page).

If true, BMQ-Land is amalgamated into the 17 week BOQT, right?
If if true, DP1 for INF is ~seven months then.

BMQ = 12 weeks = Three (3) Months
BOQT = 17 Weeks = 4.25 months - round to Four (4) Months
Total Time (initial) Training = ~Seven (7.25) months*


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## DAA (31 Mar 2016)

expeditionary said:
			
		

> Hmm...interesting, I was just reading up on it. (source http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/training-prof-dev/non-commissioned-members.page).
> 
> If true, BMQ-Land is amalgamated into the 17 week BOQT, right?
> If if true, DP1 for INF is ~seven months then.
> ...



What exactly are you trying to get at here?

If I'm following this correctly, you seem to be equating training time and qualifications with pay increases, which isn't the case.  Pay Increments (increases) are granted annually based on your date of enrolment.  So whether or not you are occupation qualified, after 12 months of service, you move to Pte IPC 2.


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## expeditionary (6 Apr 2016)

DAA said:
			
		

> What exactly are you trying to get at here?
> 
> If I'm following this correctly, you seem to be equating training time and qualifications with pay increases, which isn't the case.  Pay Increments (increases) are granted annually based on your date of enrolment.  So whether or not you are occupation qualified, after 12 months of service, you move to Pte IPC 2.



Good point. My logic (albeit out-of-loop and quasi awake state of mind) was as follows:
[list type=decimal]
[*]forces.ca (http://www.forces.ca/en/job/pdf/infantrysoldier-4) markets a fully trained soldier to rake in $49,000. We know this to be the third year of service/pay increment, with a little math from the pay table (http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-pay/reg-force-ncm-class-c-rates.page), and my original thread post. 


			
				expeditionary said:
			
		

> *REG - YEAR/INCREMENT 3*
> Monthly = $4,120
> Yearly = $4,120 x 12 months = $49,440
> Taxes = $8,397
> ...


[*]Silly me totally neglects this info (and the fact that from DOE goes into effect for annual pay increases), and thought process goes to, "So, lets calculate what time it takes to finish training, and then we'll know when we're making the big bucks!" 'sigh.
[*]Actually, yes, I remember now. The pay grade is posted, the deductions aren't. *This is all about deductions!*


> The financial importance and scrutiny of figuring out deductions (R&Q, taxes, etc.):
> 
> _Make a million, spend a million, and you're back at zero. Make a dollar, keep that dollar, and you have a dollar._


So, from the information provided on the net pay from BMQ in St. Jean, I interpolated the data to give a rough estimate as to what deductions would be for the duration of training in the DP1 stage (BMQ, environmental, and basic occupational qualification). 

[*]So, we (kind-of?) figured out what a rough estimate of DP1 net pay, which is approximately eight months of a three year VIE, or 22% of the VIE. Now, we just have to find out what approximate costs would be deducted while posted to a base after DP1. Or, in all favour, give this up because it's starting to feel like I should have became an accountant and meddled with numbers, and this is exactly why I'm joining the military as infantry, because I can only (or, want to) count to ten on my hands; and dig dig dig, of course. 

[*]Involuntarily, another way to look at it is calculating total DP1 time and figuring out it's approximately 22% of the time of a three year VIE. That's probably the best we got outta that post. 

[/list]



*

		Code:
	

If anyone could provide info on deductions/net pay info from Garrison Petawawa/Gagetown/Shilo/Edmonton like DAA did for BMQ in St. Jean, THANK YOU!!




So, this post has gone from REG VS RES NCM INF PAY to REG NCM PAY/DEDUCTIONS

Regarding provincial taxes. Well, lets look at postings:

Royal Canadian Regiment (RCR)

Petawawa - Ontario - 5.05% on the first $41,536 of taxable income, + 9.15% on the next $41,539
Gagetown - New Brunswick - 9.68% on the first $40,492 of taxable income, + 14.82% on the next $40,493

Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry (PPCLI)

Shilo/Edmonton - Alberta - 10% on the first $125,000 of taxable income

For simplicities sake, lets use the average gross pay of all three years in the VIE to calculate provincial and federal taxes due. 
That would be $124,272 (cumulative gross over three years) / 3 (years) = $41,424 (averaged gross pay over three years).

ONTARIO - 5.05% of $41,424 = $2,091.91 
NEW BRUNSWICK - 9.68% of $40,492 = $3,919.63 AND 14.82% of $750 = $111.15 --- TOTAL = $4,030.78
EDMONTON - 10% of $41,424 = $4,142.4



		Code:
	

RMKS
ONTARIO - GOOD
NEW BRUNSWICK - DECENT
ALBERTA - COUNTING TO TEN ON FINGERS EASY


Federal Tax: 

15% on the first $45,282 of taxable income, +

20.5% on the next $45,281 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income over $45,282 up to $90,563),

15% of $41,424 = $6,213.6

TOGETHER NOW!

ONTARIO POSTING - $2,091.91 + $6,213.6 = $8,305.51 ||| $41,424 (gross) - $8,305.51 = $33,118.49 (after taxes)
NEW BRUNSWICK POSTING - $4,030.78 + $6,213.6 = $10,244.38 ||| $41,424 (gross) - $10,244.38 = $31,179.62 (after taxes)
EDMONTON POSTING - $4,142.4 + $6,213.6 = $10,356 ||| $41,424 (gross) - $10,356 = $31,068 (after taxes)

Now, add them all up, average them, since the range ($33,118.49 - $31,068) is $2,050.49 (4.95% of 3yr/avg. gross pay. Marginal).

The average is $31,788.70 (annual net) or $2,649.06 (monthly net). Said another way, expect to clear in as net in three years $95,366.11, before deductions, pizza, smokes, booze, and alimony. INCOMING CURVEBALL! INCENTIVES!

If I can see ~$2,000 coming in post incentives and deductions (R&Q - FOOD AND HOUSE!), that's $500 a week in saving money. Not bad. Not bad at all. 

Now we can all go home and stop thinking of this, focus on PT, and dream of digging holes in our sleep. Oh, sleep. 

DUCIMUS!

TAX RATE SOURCE:
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html

*


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## DAA (6 Apr 2016)

The deductions won't really change much.  Ration charges are "universal", so it makes no difference where you are posted, they will always be the same.  The only difference will be after completion of DP1 and posted for first time employment, at which point you can "self" manage your ration charges in one of three ways:

1 - continue to be subject to the "full rate";   or
2 - opt to elect the "half rate";  or
3 - opt out of paying for rations all together and feed yourself.

Quarters charges may fluctuate upward, depending on the type of accommodation assigned after DP1.


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## expeditionary (10 Apr 2016)

DAA said:
			
		

> The deductions won't really change much.  Ration charges are "universal"...



This make this threads life easy. Since we're talking from a national annual salary, universal/national is good here.

$538.72 was the "full rate" Ration cost at St.Jean during BMQ. The daily rate works out to $17.96, which is a bargain considering:
[list type=decimal]
[*]No need to prepare/wash/cook.
[*]Three square meals - $17.96/3 = $5.98 per meal.
[*]Time to hang out and relax.
[/list]
The average income is $2,649.06 (monthly net (pre Rations and Quarters)). 

$2,649.96  - $538.72 = $2,111.24 (monthly net (post Rations)).

Now, to obtain the variance of Quarters...


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## SupersonicMax (11 Apr 2016)

Man, you are over-thinking this..


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## blacktriangle (11 Apr 2016)

This is either an elaborate trolling, or he's probably going to have some issues making friends in the Army.


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## AbdullahD (11 Apr 2016)

Spectrum said:
			
		

> This is either an elaborate trolling, or he's probably going to have some issues making friends in the Army.



I'm inclined to think he is not trolling, but then again im enjoying his research albeit it is redundant and he is way over thinking it imho.

I just hope he realizes there is more then money to life.

Abdullah


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## blacktriangle (11 Apr 2016)

Well if he's serious, he's soon going to realize that becoming an Infantry NCM is not exactly a cash-cow. 

My constructive comment for the day: expeditionary - you are very thorough, we could use more clerks like you. There are also many other options in the military as an NCM - including a number that receive Spec Pay after QL5/DP2. Do yourself (and possibly the Infantry  ;D ) a service and explore the options...


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## PuckChaser (11 Apr 2016)

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> I just hope he realizes there is more then money to life.
> 
> Abdullah



Excellent point.


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## runormal (11 Apr 2016)

I agree with the others you are over thinking the hell out of this. Likewise trying to plan how much money you will make as a CLS A reservist is a *dangerous *and *foolish *idea IMO. I've looked at the past few year end pay stubs and my my pay difference has been in the thousands of dollars (up or down $4k depending on the year). 

Likewise your pay in the reserves for the first few years is heavily dictated by how quickly you get trained and if you are lucky get your 404's. You are going to pretty much need your PTE(T)'s to get various taskings/class A days. If you can drive (i.e be in possession of 404's) that makes you 200% more employable. Furthermore some units really engage their PATs (Personnel Awaiting Training), and other units don't do a whole lot with them. 

Likewise your pay in the reserves is dictated by how often you show up, and the availability of work.

Need a weekend off to study? Fine but it will cost you $300 + Field Pay + 2 days worth of food.

Can't make this weeks parade night? Fine, but it will cost you $65.

All you friends are going to City X for the weekend, oh crap we have an ex this weekend... 

If you miss any event that is money out of your pocket, which you can't make up..

As a reservist you will have to make decisions, I've had friends and a ex flat out tell me that I work too much and that I should take some weekends off. Likewise my social life was close to nil between 3rd and 4th University as I managed to snag a job in my field of study while showing up 2-3 weekends a month. I've missed parties, sporting events, activities with friends, concerts, one time a funeral (but that is a complicated story, I didn't want to go as  I'm not on the best terms with my dads side of the family, so I willingly worked). Likewise I've taken weekends off to study, and weekends to do group projects. As student the money is pretty good, but I don't really do it for the money. Yes I "needed" the money but I have really enjoyed my time in the reserves.

Now that I'm more or less done school I did create a budget to see how much I'd make at my civy job and how quickly I can pay off my student loans. However I didn't even factor in the reserves, there are far too many variable to even consider. I have an idea of what i'll make but whatever I'll make in the reserves I'm transferring directly to pay back my student loans. Once those are taken care of the reserves will be my "fun money" as well as I'll start saving for a downpayment on a house. 

You can support your self as a student fairly well as an army reservist, but again I wouldn't crunch numbers before you even see your unit calendar for the training year, let alone swear in. What if you try it and find out it isn't for you? Even in the reserves people VR after weekend 1.


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## LightFighter (11 Apr 2016)

Easy way to determine if you should go Reg vs Reserve instead of being Rainman and only thinking about the money and calculating it over and over again. 

If you want to be employed full time with the Military, go Regular Force. This will be enough to support yourself and family, plus you will get more benefits compared to the Reserves. 


If you only want to do this part time with occasional periods of full time employment, while still maintaining full time school or civilian employment go Reserve. Don't count on the Reserves for full time employment or to support yourself financially. 



Or continue to think this over for another couple months; but eventually you will need to decide and submit an application.


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## expeditionary (11 Apr 2016)

Alright gentlemen, the response. 

[list type=decimal]
[*]Agreed. I am overthinking; in the regard of considering take home pay in a situation where calculation net pay varies to a high degree and is unpredictable to calculate, given the virtue of the occupation.
[*]This research would have been quick and easy if: 1) Rations and Quarters at individual garrisons were public knowledge like: provincial/federal taxes, home insurance, base pay salary, and a quick google search for rent and cost of food in a particular town, amongst a varying degree of other costs of living. 

[*]Subject Change: REG NCM INF NET PAY - I've realized it's a mighty endeavour to compare the two, as pointed out by this research and generous comments/input. The mission forth-ward is to find the approximate net pay for a Pte during the first VIE with some acceptable degree of variance (say ~10%) given the large amount of factors that can effect pay.
[*]REG FORCE makes the most sense, for me.
[*]Today, unfortunate circumstances brought news to my ears that will inhibit me to join the forces for six months. It's a sad day, but in this respect, it gives me time to work on myself, physically and mentally, and determine the average net INF pay....JUST KIDDING! I'm going to rest this issue and research for a while.

[/list]


*Thank you* to all who contributed wish insight, perspective, knowledge, and facts towards this endeavour, and those who wish to further contribute to the financial planning research of an NCM REG INF 3YR VIE.​



			
				SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Man, you are over-thinking this..


Agreed. When I get thinking, I think, and it does give me a headache. It's good to see perspective from the outside.



			
				Spectrum said:
			
		

> This is either an elaborate trolling, or he's probably going to have some issues making friends in the Army.


Far from "trolling". It'd be a shame if the negation of your first statement made your second true. 



			
				AbdullahD said:
			
		

> I'm inclined to think he is not trolling


You are correct!



			
				AbdullahD said:
			
		

> ...but then again I'm enjoying his research.


Thank you!



			
				AbdullahD said:
			
		

> ...I just hope he realizes there is more then money to life.


Please refer to my first post in this thread, quoted below. 


			
				expeditionary said:
			
		

> *Disclaimer: My decision isn't based solely on pay, though as the lubricant of society, and the constraints I currently face, it's a crucial factor in making an informed decision.*





			
				Spectrum said:
			
		

> Well if he's serious, he's soon going to realize that becoming an Infantry NCM is not exactly a cash-cow..


Exactly the point of this research; figuring out the financial compensation _before_ committing, and whether it fulfils my needs; read disclaimer on first post. Even though it's not very financially rewarding, my intent through my goals are to join REG NCM INF.



			
				Spectrum said:
			
		

> My constructive comment for the day: expeditionary - you are very thorough, we could use more clerks like you. There are also many other options in the military as an NCM...


Thank you! Though I must admit, I hate office work. RE: OPTIONS, infantry is exclusive to the military, desk-work isn't. 


			
				Spectrum said:
			
		

> including a number that receive Spec Pay after QL5/DP2.


The attraction of spec pay (in another trade) isn't enough to skew me from fulfilling a life long goal of serving as 00010. 


			
				Spectrum said:
			
		

> Do yourself (and possibly the Infantry  ;D ) a service and explore the options...


[/brokenheart]



			
				runormal said:
			
		

> ...I didn't even factor in the reserves, there are far too many variable to even consider...
> ...I wouldn't crunch numbers before you even see your unit calendar for the training year, let alone swear in. What if you try it and find out it isn't for you?


I find this a very healthy approach and input I admire. You, and the other posts make a good point, thank you. 



			
				LightFighter said:
			
		

> Don't count on the Reserves for full time employment or to support yourself financially.


Agreed. 


			
				LightFighter said:
			
		

> Or continue to think this over for another couple months; but eventually you will need to decide and submit an application.


See response point #5.


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## AbdullahD (12 Apr 2016)

Well ill give you the tip of the hat for the humor. mayhap we will be in basic together, i need to get fit and plan on applying in around 6 months.

I can use intelligent chaps around me 

nonetheless good on ya and it looks solid to me.

Abdullah


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## Brasidas (12 Apr 2016)

expeditionary said:
			
		

> Alright gentlemen, the response.
> 
> [list type=decimal]
> [*]Agreed. I am overthinking; in the regard of considering take home pay in a situation where calculation net pay varies to a high degree and is unpredictable to calculate, given the virtue of the occupation.
> ...



Three points:
One, if your "lifelong goal" is to be infantry, and you don't have immediate commitments such as three kids to support, what's held you up from your goal and why are you spinning over reg vs res and finances? You are going to get an incomplete picture, you are going to be making less than you might pursuing some other career, and you are going to be more stable and earning more in the reg force than the reserve. You already know all of this.

Two, you are aware that there's more to military than infantry, pilots, and ships' captains, right? Have you spent a significant time sitting down and talking to infanteers about their experiences and choices, or visiting a reserve infantry unit and observing training? There are plenty of trades that aren't the office work that you disparage (and you might be surprised at how much paperwork leadership does). Have you actually researched engineers or armour as trade options? How about signals or medics? If you don't know what the alternatives are like, do you really think you're doing yourself a favor by putting yourself inside a small box?

Three, you're spinning. Stop.

Instead of trying to calculate the aggregate rations and quarters bill between Gagetown and Shilo, research your prospective career(s) in a productive manner and make intelligent decisions.


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## Loachman (12 Apr 2016)

And if you waste this much time and effort with minutiae, how are you ever going to be able to conduct an estimate, make a plan, and issue orders before the enemy overruns your position and is three weeks into their post-war victory leave?

This has been incredibly painful to read.


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