# PT- Running with weight and gasmask



## Jarnhamar (18 Jan 2012)

To alleviate the tediousness of running on a treadmill I started running with body armor, training plates and a gasmask.

Is there anything really detrimental to running with a mask on? Obviously it makes breathing more difficult but is there a risk of any long term harm?

I'm also told through a friend a couple airforce members don't like seeing it. Is using PPE during personal PT allowed?


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## MJP (18 Jan 2012)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> Is there anything really detrimental to running with a mask on? Obviously it makes breathing more difficult but is there a risk of any long term harm?
> 
> I'm also told through a friend a couple airforce members don't like seeing it. Is using PPE during personal PT allowed?



Other than looking like an douche AFAIK it has no long term effects.  Gas masks during workout seems to be the new craze out there.

We wear PPE for PT at times, this really is no different as long as you aren't destroying it.


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## Veiledal (18 Jan 2012)

Just have a spotter when working out like that, wouldn't want to overheat and pass out.


> Gas masks during workout seems to be the new craze out there.


Everyone wants to be fruity Rudy.


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## Armymedic (18 Jan 2012)

Instead of providing yourself with session of self induced c@ck which will make anyone who sees you doing this question your sanity, perhaps you should look at other cardio activities that are not just running on a treadmill. 

Jumping rope for instance,

Tabata intervals squats or burpees or anything else you want to do,

1 minute speed or elevation training on your tread mill,

or just breath exclusively through your nose while you run

Nobody knows what the harmful long term effects of doing cardio with a gas mask on because there are no medical researchers whom would ethically subject people to such a test. 

As for adding weight, via weight vest or pack, there is science. The largest risk is the added pressure to the joints and a relative increase in the risk of developing degenerative joint disease later, esp if you are running long. This was evident by all the broken people who ran in cbt boots with rucks on. 

If you are going to do this, like the five fingers shoe training period, you should restrict your increases to 10% (of weight or distance, not both) per week. Ideally you do this for a workout which is more involved than just a straight run. Also, start working to strengthen your abs, because it will add strain on your back too.


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## Armymedic (18 Jan 2012)

MJP said:
			
		

> Gas masks during workout seems to be the new craze out there.



Guess it is true that stupidity is more contagious than knowledge.


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## Container (18 Jan 2012)

I dont run with weight but I ruck with it. I also train with a gas mask- because I work in a gas mask- and I put out better than the super fit who dont train with one when we both strap one on.

The argument is that it can simulate altitude training to a lesser degree and it used by lots of professional MMA fighters- who have their own mask now but originally were using snorkels taped to their heads.

I train for "c@ck" like conditions so that I dont care that much when they happen. I dont expect everyone to get it.


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## Jarnhamar (18 Jan 2012)

Oh I didn't _catch _stupidity, we've been friends a while  

I'll usually change up the runs and not just go at one speed for 40 minutes. 
5mph pace on the machine for a few minutes then speed it up to a sprint for a minute or two then drop it down to a walk for a few minutes, sometimes I'll throw up the incline.
It may be a placebo effect but it feels like my normal sprints are improved.

As for running with the vest, I notice if I push it too much my knee gets just a little sore but at the end of the day even with the vest and plates I still weight 8 or 9 pounds less than what I did when I started running.

I never thought about jump rope, thanks.  I got a nose like Owen Wilson, no way I could breath though that honker alone.


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## Armymedic (19 Jan 2012)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> Oh I didn't _catch _stupidity, we've been friends a while



You might be resistant. 

You questioned what you could do instead of just jumping on the bandwagon.


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## Maxadia (19 Jan 2012)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> I got a nose like Owen Wilson, no way I could breath though that honker alone.



If that's true, you should be able to do 4 minute miles, breathing only through that schnozzle.  ;D

Hang on....maybe you'd suck the mask right to your face.


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## ballz (19 Jan 2012)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> I'll usually change up the runs and not just go at one speed for 40 minutes.
> 5mph pace on the machine for a few minutes then speed it up to a sprint for a minute or two then drop it down to a walk for a few minutes, sometimes I'll throw up the incline.
> It may be a placebo effect but it feels like my normal sprints are improved.



That's interval training for you, and it will improve your sprints and your distance runs.



			
				Grimaldus said:
			
		

> As for running with the vest, I notice if I push it too much my knee gets just a little sore but at the end of the day even with the vest and plates I still weight 8 or 9 pounds less than what I did when I started running.



And that's really the set-back about running with weight, it can be pretty detrimental to the joints. I don't know how much you weigh, but I have a 40 pound weight vest. Consider if you were a 200 pound person, performing like a 200 pound person, but the impact on your joints is that of an overweight 240 pound person, doing things that an overweight 240 pound person wouldn't be able to do to his joints because he's too out of shape.

I use the weight vest for training on stairs, hill sprints, and for ruckmarching, as well as for callisthenics (it's made a huge difference on my push ups), because there's less impact. I am looking at buying a parachute for sprint training, I used them from ages 14-17 when I played hockey competitively and they were great training tools with a lot less chance of injury / stress on joints. Something you might want to consider as opposed to sprinting with weight.


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## Jarnhamar (19 Jan 2012)

cypres78 said:
			
		

> Gas Mask?? Haha is this a serious thread?



No I'm just joking. You should never train wearing a gaskmask for things you might be exposed to like physical exertion, shooting, applying first aid etc..




			
				RDJP said:
			
		

> If that's true, you should be able to do 4 minute miles, breathing only through that schnozzle.  ;D
> 
> Hang on....maybe you'd suck the mask right to your face.



It's big but crooked, air has to twist and turn to get around all the bends. Requires more effort!


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## Pusser (19 Jan 2012)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> To alleviate the tediousness of running on a treadmill I started running with body armor, training plates and a gasmask.



Not quite sure how piling on weight and restricting your breathing alleviates tedium.  As far as I can see, you'd still be bored, just more tired.

If you want to make running interesting, check out this routine:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L30rynCHwPs&feature=youtube_gdata_player

This one's even better (except for the leaping off the cliff part): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLctf4o6feQ


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## OldSolduer (19 Jan 2012)

cypres78 said:
			
		

> Im no stranger to sarcasm ;D
> 
> I can't help but laugh thinking of being out running and crossing paths with someone running wearing a gas mask.
> 
> To each his own.



I'd be looking for said individual to see if he/she (weirdness knows no bounds and cuts across all demographics) was carrying a bloody machete.


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## Journeyman (19 Jan 2012)

cypres78 said:
			
		

> I can't help but laugh thinking of being out running and crossing paths with someone running wearing a gas mask.


Until further down the trail when you find the toxic spill the masked-up person was running from.   ;D


I agree that it probably looks retarded......but think of it as resistance training for the lungs, for someone who can't afford to fly to the mountains to train at elevation.


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## SentryMAn (19 Jan 2012)

You could buy a Altitude tent and Be like Lance.


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## MJP (19 Jan 2012)

Just don't be this guy.

http://www.mensfitness.com/training/build-muscle/man%E2%80%99s-workout-causes-bomb-scare


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## medicineman (19 Jan 2012)

Personally I don't see any real reason not to train like that, especially for someone that actually needs to work in that equipment (other than the looks you get from folks - best not done in public).  You need to be able to regulate your breathing and your muscles have to adapt to a change in delivery time of the O2.  Go watch a youtube video called "First Among Equals" about the NZSAS - you get to see some training sessions of the boys on their counter-terror training doing PT in their respirators for two reasons: they have to be able to do CT in a CBRN environment, and they wear them routinely as part of their assault kit, so they train in them.

$0.02

MM


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## Jarnhamar (19 Jan 2012)

cypres78 said:
			
		

> Im no stranger to sarcasm ;D
> 
> I can't help but laugh thinking of being out running and crossing paths with someone running wearing a gas mask.
> 
> To each his own.



I hear ya.  If I was out running around the streets in a gaskmask and I passed someone else in a gasmask I'd snort and make fun of them too  ;D


While I don't run around the streets with it on, if it looks a little retarded but makes me stronger I'm willing to wear a little egg on my face over it.

I was reading up about it in the Journal of Sports Science.   It says it; 


> Training the muscles responsible for breathing in – inspiratory muscles – can improve performance by 15 per cent, meaning a runner can run for longer and a swimmer can swim faster


-Dr Mitch Lomax, university of Indiana's Department of Sport and Exercise Science


Run farther from Zombies, swim faster from sharks? Sold


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## OldSolduer (19 Jan 2012)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> Run farther from Zombies, swim faster from sharks mutated sea bass with frickin laser beams attached to their heads? Sold



There - fixed.


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## blacktriangle (19 Jan 2012)

Hey Grimaldus, let's be PT buddies!


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## Blackadder1916 (19 Jan 2012)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> I was reading up about it in the Journal of Sports Science.   It says it; -Dr Mitch Lomax, university of Indiana's Department of Sport and Exercise Science
> 
> 
> > Training the muscles responsible for breathing in – inspiratory muscles – can improve performance by 15 per cent, meaning a runner can run for longer and a swimmer can swim faster



While I haven't seen professional journal articles or the original study by Dr. Lomax, I did find that an article about Dr. Lomax's study was quoted in another thread Physical Fitness (Jogging, Diet, Cardiovascular, and Strength ).  Since it may seem that you equate training in a gas mask to training the respiratory muscles as per Dr. Lomax's study, I'll requote some pertinent passages from that article.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/04/training-breathing-muscles-can-boost.html


> . . . . .  IMT involves the use of a hand-held device that provides resistance as one inhales through it, requiring greater use of inspiratory muscles. For half of the study participants, the IMT device was set to a level that provided resistance as the subjects took a fast forceful breath in. *For six weeks they took 30 breaths at this setting twice a day*. The cyclists in the control group did the same exercises with the IMT adjusted to a minimal level.
> 
> . . . . . .
> 
> ...



It should be made clear that this study was not about training while wearing a gas mask, but rather a breathing device that restricted the flow of air.  The device was not used continually during a training period.

I am nowhere near a SME on exercise physiology or even much interested these days in performing at peak physical condition (_I'll pause while those who know me snort and make rude remarks about when or if I was ever interested in being in peak physical condition_).  However, there was a time when my primary duties (and some odd secondary duties) exposed me to some of the things being discussed.

The breathing exercises (and breathing device) proposed in the study reminds me much of the "breathing physio" that post-op cardiac patients had to do nearly 30 years ago when I worked in the cardiac unit at NDMC.  The intent was probably much the same - to get the individuals to breathe deep and exercise the muscles involve in respiration - it did not restrict the total amount of air inspired nor did it lead to hypoxia.  Do not automatically assume that training while wearing a gas mask will equal the inspiratory muscle exercises as per Dr. Lomax's study.  There is no measurement of the breath intake while wearing a gas mask.  One can just as easily continue breathing but taking in less air, thus leading to hypoxia.

But there can (possibly, maybe, hopefully) some benefit in training in hypoxia.  During my quick google search I did come across some relatively recent (within the last ten years) journal articles about exercise results in both normobaric and hypobaric hypoxic conditions.  It seemed that the goals of these research studies was often aimed at the obese - a way to increase the workload without increasing the physical demands on joints etc.

The only time I've ever done PT while wearing a gas mask was during BOTC, but that was punishment c**k because there were stupid people on course.  On one of the few instances when I observed a soldier seriously doing individual PT in a gas mask, he passed out; however he was a stupid person and that was not the only sample of his idiotic behaviour.  It's a good example for making the case that doing PT in a gas mask should be a controlled activity, not something that should be done alone.




			
				Rider Pride said:
			
		

> Nobody knows what the harmful long term effects of doing cardio with a gas mask on because there are no medical researchers whom would ethically subject people to such a test.



While I know of no studies that were specifically aimed at doing PT in a gas mask, there has been some research into effects of physical activity while wearing gas masks and other elements of NBC ensemble.  I'm personally familiar with some conducted in Canada in the 1970s.  I couldn't quote the results or even the intent of the studies; at the time I was more interested in the test allowance and the extra days of leave granted for each individual test.


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## daftandbarmy (19 Jan 2012)

Training with weight on your back? Sounds totally whacked out. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V8X01mewno

Unless you're training for war in the infantry, I guess....


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## Jarnhamar (20 Jan 2012)

I didn't dig down that deep, good find Blackadder.

The little device they use in the article, I imagine, would be significantly harder to breathe through that a gas mask.
Pro's and con's to it I guess.  
I can't imagine CJIRU not doing all kinds of PT with gasmasks on and and bunny suits all done up and my friend did the army run- 5k-  in TOPP high (forget the new term).  

The videos on the NZSAS are pretty neat. It sounds like they do a lot of running (and shooting) with the masks on.



			
				Spectrum said:
			
		

> Hey Grimaldus, let's be PT buddies!


Great! You can catch me if I pass out.


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## TN2IC (20 Jan 2012)

If you were in my town, I would be game as a training buddy.


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## dangerboy (20 Jan 2012)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> I can't imagine CJIRU not doing all kinds of PT with gasmasks on and and bunny suits all done up and my friend did the army run- 5k-  in TOPP high (forget the new term).



It is Dress State 4 mask worn. TOPP was replaced with MOPP and it is now called Dress State.


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## George Wallace (20 Jan 2012)

dangerboy said:
			
		

> It is Dress State 4 mask worn. TOPP was replaced with MOPP and it is now called Dress State.



Just another case of someone wanting to get a check in a box on his/her PER.  Me; I stick with the old standby: "Raincoats ON/Raincoats OFF" philosophy.  Just tell me what you want, don't confuse me......I am CLC qual.......ummm JLC qual........no......JNCO qual and JNCO CF qual.......NO! ........PLQ qual.........FRIG IT!.... I earned that damn Leaf, I can understand what you want (If you give Clear, Concise Orders).........


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## blacktriangle (20 Jan 2012)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> I didn't dig down that deep, good find Blackadder.
> 
> The little device they use in the article, I imagine, would be significantly harder to breathe through that a gas mask.
> Pro's and con's to it I guess.
> ...



Is TOPP High the same thing as MOPP 4? It would be better since at least no one will confuse the call with "Mop floor". EDIT: Disregard, just read the posts above me.  "Dress State" ? Wow, that sounds super.  :

I'd like to try mixing some of the New SAR Tech fitness test with CBRN gear, I bet that would be a bag drive.  I just wish I didn't have to worry about getting taken down by the cops while I workout...


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## daftandbarmy (20 Jan 2012)

dangerboy said:
			
		

> It is Dress State 4 mask worn. TOPP was replaced with MOPP and it is now called Dress State.



Wait? What? Does that mean we can get rid of LD and bring back the 'Start Line' now too?


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## resolute (30 Jan 2012)

1.  Running with weight.  Joint considerations have been outlined reasonably above.  Do you throw a grenade (or shot put) like you do a baseball?  Obviously not.  Your rotator cuff would be torn to $hit in short order.  Another thing to consider is you don't necessarily want to do something that will significantly alter your form / neuromuscular programming.  You can probably get away with a bit of extra weight, maybe 5 or 10 % BW, and still run at 3/4 speed or sprint.  But too much of a good thing (like running with a giant parachute behind you or doing overspeed training down a very steep hill), and you are now training a fundamentally different movement, and actually messing up your "normal" running form.  To use a more mundane example, consider that when a person has sprained an ankle, they can actually do more long term damage to the (originally) uninjured structures by trying to do "too much / too soon" and then acquiring abnormal compensatory movements (i.e. limping) that may be difficult to shake completely once the ankle has healed.

2.  Running with gas mask on.  First of all, this isn't really like altitude training.  
a) You may be somewhat increasing your "pneumatic resistance" such that the required inspiratory and expiratory pressures are larger (just like in the article quoted).  I was involved (actually, as a guinea pig) in research at DRDC utilizing a device called a "Power Lung" which did this in a measurable way.  There was no translation to real world performance.  The reason for this (I think), is that the lungs are seldom the limiting factor during submaximal or maximal exercise (unless you're a steady smoker with COPD).  There are some exceptions to this (e.g. exercise induced arterial hypoexemia), but generally, it's the cardiac output and the rate of utilisation of oxygen by the working muscles that limit performance.  Improving the capacity of a non-limiting component is useless.  
b) Other than possibly increasing the resistive forces by increasing turbulence / reducing laminar flow, the other probable difference to running with gas masks (vs. without) is that you are increasing "dead space."  This means that you are rebreathing the same air to a greater degree.  I am unfamiliar with the actual volume of the masks, but if you significantly increased dead space, not only would your breathing mixture be hypoxic, it would also be hypercarbic.  This is NOT the same as hypoxic training, which uses a carefully regulated mixture of gas that is hypoxic but NOT hypercarbic.  Again, there are a lot of variables (e.g. the amount of dead space, tightness of the mask on the face, rate of metabolism), but the possibility of unpredictably losing consciousness does exist (just like those jokers who hyperventilate before taking a large breath of air and then trying to swim as far as possible underwater).  
c) Even if it WAS like altitude training, most proponents of altitude training have long ago adopted the "train low / sleep high" philosophy, because the erythropoietic stimulation of hypoxia can be gained by ~ 16 hours of daily exposure while still having optimal intensity of training in a normoxic environment.  
d) The "real world / functional" arguments of the CJIRU-types only applies if you are wearing the rest of your gear.  There were people in KAF doing Army Runs and the like with PT gear and a gas mask.  I'm no SME on CBRN, but I'm not sure what readiness / MOPP state corresponds to spandex shorts + tank top + gas mask.  

Just my $0.02.  Well, probably more like 3 or 4 cents, actually.  Sorry for the length...


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## daftandbarmy (31 Jan 2012)

resolute said:
			
		

> 1.  Running with weight.  Joint considerations have been outlined reasonably above.  Do you throw a grenade (or shot put) like you do a baseball?  Obviously not.  Your rotator cuff would be torn to $hit in short order.  Another thing to consider is you don't necessarily want to do something that will significantly alter your form / neuromuscular programming.  You can probably get away with a bit of extra weight, maybe 5 or 10 % BW, and still run at 3/4 speed or sprint.  But too much of a good thing (like running with a giant parachute behind you or doing overspeed training down a very steep hill), and you are now training a fundamentally different movement, and actually messing up your "normal" running form.  To use a more mundane example, consider that when a person has sprained an ankle, they can actually do more long term damage to the (originally) uninjured structures by trying to do "too much / too soon" and then acquiring abnormal compensatory movements (i.e. limping) that may be difficult to shake completely once the ankle has healed.
> 
> 2.  Running with gas mask on.  First of all, this isn't really like altitude training.
> a) You may be somewhat increasing your "pneumatic resistance" such that the required inspiratory and expiratory pressures are larger (just like in the article quoted).  I was involved (actually, as a guinea pig) in research at DRDC utilizing a device called a "Power Lung" which did this in a measurable way.  There was no translation to real world performance.  The reason for this (I think), is that the lungs are seldom the limiting factor during submaximal or maximal exercise (unless you're a steady smoker with COPD).  There are some exceptions to this (e.g. exercise induced arterial hypoexemia), but generally, it's the cardiac output and the rate of utilisation of oxygen by the working muscles that limit performance.  Improving the capacity of a non-limiting component is useless.
> ...



Wait a minute there, you sound like you actually know what you're talking about. Now how the heck am I going to BS people on this thread? Geez.... no consideration from some people


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## Jarnhamar (1 Feb 2012)

Next someone is going to suggest you can't have BMQ students attempt chin-ups with rucksacks on  :


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## Armymedic (4 Feb 2012)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> Next someone is going to suggest you can't have BMQ students attempt chin-ups with rucksacks on  :




there is no issue with that as long as the troop can grip the bar while having the shoulder and elbow joints in the proper physiological and anatomical position before the full load is placed onto the joints.

I had the opportunity to discuss this issue of gas mask tng with a large group of military MOs and PAs. The common consensus is that while there is literature (one of which is mentioned above) shows there is some  small benefit to training with restricted breathing, it should only be done by those who's occupation routinely requires that a breathing apparatus be worn in a life threatening environment where removal of said device would result in harm or death. The thought is that it is only beneficial to train while requiring the small increase in inspiratory stregnth for job perfomance, as once restricted breathing device  training is ceased, the benefits of it are completely lost in 3-6 months. Further, there is no data that shows if there is any long term effects from restriced breathing to the lung tissue itself.

Further, the study was conducted with restricted brathing apparatus, under direct supervision of a medically trainied personnel. This is also the way professional and high perfomance athletes train as well.


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## The_Falcon (4 Feb 2012)

I have been running with a weighted vest since last july, started with 12lbs, now up to 66lbs.  I find that when I run without the vest my speed and endurance has gone up significantly.  Also learned early on while running with it on, that for at least myself personally, running right a forefoot strike/POSE style stride, significantly reduced/eliminated any pain I felt in my legs/joints, so much so that I run that way now without the vest as well (also because I wear minimalist shoes, that really aren't designed to be run in using heel strike running.).


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