# The C9A2 (pics)



## D-n-A (5 May 2004)

http://www.cdnmilitary.ca/images/C9A2_1.jpg 


 http://www.cdnmilitary.ca/images/C9A2_2.jpg 


*for those who dont know, the little black rectangle shaped box is a AN-PEQ2 unit


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## AlphaCharlie (5 May 2004)

sexy.


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## leopard11 (5 May 2004)

very nice indeed,  one of my friends pointed this out,  one of the barrels is longer on one pic from the other, i take it they are still prototyping and havent found the exact specs they want yet?


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## scm77 (5 May 2004)

One is a normal barrell the other is for FIBUA and other CQB situations.  I read something somewhere that said each C9 gunner would get two of each barrell.  

And yes it is very sexy.

Anybody know if they upgrading the the C8‘s to Diemacos C8A2 aswell?


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## 48Highlander (6 May 2004)

Am I the only one who doesn‘t know what an AN-PEQ2 unit is?


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## Jarnhamar (6 May 2004)

Thats a beautiful gun.
Gotta get rid of the C79 site though.
I‘d probably prefer the shorter barrel as well. I‘d even trade the distance and accurcy with the longer one for the shorter one.
Carrying 4 barrels woudln‘t be much fun either.


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## stukirkpatrick (6 May 2004)

I looked the AN-PEQ2 up, it appears to be some sort of aiming laser, but most of the web references are for Airsoft...

Why mount a laser sight on an LMG?


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## mattoigta (6 May 2004)

> Originally posted by Kirkpatrick:
> [qb] Why mount a laser sight on an LMG? [/qb]


In that same vein, why mount an optical sight on an LMG?


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## 48Highlander (6 May 2004)

the optical sight makes some sense for an LMG.  Used at the section level, the C9 is rarely employed as a machinegun at all, especially during the type of advance-to-contact that we usualy paractice.  There‘s very little use of the concept of the beaten zone.  It‘s basically used as a C7 with much more ammo, so mounting a C79 sight on it makes as much sense as mounting it on a C7.  Putting it on a C6 on the other hand would be a mistake because the C6 actually IS supposed to be employed as an MG.


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## D-n-A (6 May 2004)

The AN-PEQ2 is a IR Pointer/Illuminator, with a 0-600m Range.


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## D-n-A (6 May 2004)

Here‘s a AN-PEQ2 zap-strapped to a US Marines M16A2? rifle

  http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/gulf_war_2_iraqi_freedom_marines/usmc21.jpg 


And another picture of it on a Marines M4 Rifle
 http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/gulf_war_2_iraqi_freedom_marines/usmc186_001.jpg


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## kyleg (6 May 2004)

Please excuse the complete lack of knowledge on this subject, but why would a laser need such a big case? I mean, laser pointers are smaller than pens nowadays...


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## Marauder (6 May 2004)

Given that the C79 can‘t hold a zero worth a shiite on a rifle, I still don‘t know why Higher insists on keeping it on an MG, even if it is firing 5.56. It should be used as an area weapon, and IMO should be issued with iron sights. If it‘d only being used as another automatic rifle, it‘s being underutilized.

And I don‘t understand why They would cheap out on not having CADPAT furniture, and just settling for OD. I‘d say you could do the job at unit level, but I‘m sure some obscure little corner of the Puzzle Palace will spew out a rule against that too.


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## Infanteer (6 May 2004)

As usual, your right on the money bro.

About the pics...I like the cloth ammo bag, BIG improvement from  the usual ka-CLUNK, ka-CLUNK, ka-KLUNK noise a gunner makes when running.


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## 1feral1 (6 May 2004)

Very interesting pics indeed! I take the second image is the para one with the shorter bbl.

Interesting about the C8/M4 style butt too.

Australia too is upgrading its F89A1 Minimi fleet, but not to extreme the CF is.

Presently the main diff between the Aussie Minimi and the CF one is as fol:

1. MAG 58 style flash suppressor
2. Thicker barrel
3. No front sight on the gas block
4. No Emerg sights on the rail
5. Knurled take down pin
6. Optics are 1.5X, but the C79 is also used
7. Hyrdraulic buffer is used
8. Solid M249 type butt

The improvements are to install a rail system where the handgurad normally is. we already have the para Minimi in service. Also used is various NINOX kit, and NADs.

Ther is a pic of the Aussie F89A1 in the weapons uploads, so go have a squizz.


Cheers,

Wes


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## jbeach95 (6 May 2004)

Wesley Allen, in regards to number 3 on your list, some C9s that I have used do not have front sights, which are probably easy to remove. Those C9s used the C79 optical sight only.

As for the optical vs. iron sights debate, why not let the gunners decide which one to use? They make rear iron sights that attach to the rail (with elevation adjustment, unlike the built in aperture).


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## AlphaCharlie (6 May 2004)

> Originally posted by Marauder:
> [qb]
> 
> And I don‘t understand why They would cheap out on not having CADPAT furniture, and just settling for OD. I‘d say you could do the job at unit level, but I‘m sure some obscure little corner of the Puzzle Palace will spew out a rule against that too. [/qb]


I‘m no expert, but I would think that printing OD on a rifle would be MUCH easier than trying to print CadPat...


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## scm77 (6 May 2004)

> Originally posted by Pte. gremlin:
> [qb] Please excuse the complete lack of knowledge on this subject, but why would a laser need such a big case? I mean, laser pointers are smaller than pens nowadays... [/qb]


It‘s an Infra Red laser pointer/illuminator.  You can‘t see it without night vision.


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## Slumsofsackville (6 May 2004)

I used Pac 4 In VA, Only way I was Doing Live Fire Fibua, I could tell where my Muzzle was and so Did my buddy. 



> It‘s an Infra Red laser pointer/illuminator. You can‘t see it without night vision.


Bingo, Naked Eye Cant See It, But NVD Can.


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## kyleg (6 May 2004)

> Originally posted by scm77:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> ...


Well that makes sense, thanks for the info. I didn‘t realize night vision was needed to see it.


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## D-n-A (6 May 2004)

This is why I THINK the furniture is OD not cadpat

having OD furniture is

cheaper
easier to do
and more adoptable to different areas


If the weapons were in TW CADPAT, and were used in Afghanistan(for example) the weapon would stick out a lot, but the OD doesnt stick as much.

Unless they planned on putting new cadpat furniture on the weapons for different deployements(TW and AR cadpat furniture), I think OD is the better option.


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## 1feral1 (6 May 2004)

WRT the F89A1. The front sight and mount are not even milled onto the top of the gas block. This mod was done when the LSW ‘lost‘ the iron sights and went optical back in about 1996.

Also dumped was the dummy buffer (which the C9 currently has), and this was replaced with an hydraulic type, with an entirely different return spring guide (not that yellow colour coded type you are all familiar with).

I would assume in the A2 upgrade, the CF too will adopt this superior design.

Another paint mod was AUSCAMing the whole wpn less the barrrel. These are currently being tired in desert AUSCAM along with the tropical issue colour which is general issue. Its an interesting process, and its epensive, but it easily chips off, as the wpn must be 100% de-greased, and the ones trialed were not.

In lay terms, the wpn is dipped into a special tank with AUSCAM on the surface with a water disolving film, and the AUSCAM sticks to the wpn and is removed, dried and spratyed with a protective finnish.

The C9A2 appears to have the OD finnsih powder coated on. This is a durable finish which we use on the 84mm Carl G when we FTR them. The eqpt is magnatised, and sprayed with a powder type paint, then placed into an pre-heated 200C giant oven for about 15 mins, then hung to cool.

Even in FTRs when the wpn has to be stripped by bead blasting, the finnish takes a while to be blown off.

The C9A2 looks great, and is definatly a vast improvement. I would imagine when issued, it will be well recieved by the troops.


Regards,

Wes


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## AlphaCharlie (6 May 2004)

Wes, how hard is that "OD Powder finish" to chip? I mean, with the use our weapons get, wouldn‘t paint chip off quite quickly?


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## Armymedic (6 May 2004)

The handgaurd and such are molded in OD, tan, and black and interchangeable to enviroment.


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## 1feral1 (6 May 2004)

The powder coating process bakes the paint on, and it stays. Yes it will chip and wear in time, but its just as durable as phosphating in my books. 

Threre are 3 major weapons rebuild facilities which have the powder coating machinery in Australia. One in Sydney, one in Brisbane, and one in Lithgow.

For reasons unknown, our weapons of all types really seam to get the worst wear and tear I have ever witnessed. From new to silver and worn within 12 months sometimes!

In Australia FTR‘d (Factory Thurough Repair)M16A1s have been powder coated in black, along with the 9 x 19mm browning Hi Power too. Its also effective for lawn mowers, car parts, and yes bike frames, etc.

We also utilise powder coating on BFBs (Blank Firing Barrels) where the first 50mm of the barrel are in signal red. This can hve some ‘burn off‘ with excessive heat after prolonged firing of belts, but thats a barrel. The housing and feed cover would never get that hot on a Minimi.

Australia does NOT use dedicated live firing barrels for blank use on MGs (I.E. we have no barrels for both blank and live firing). Sure the barrels are normal ones, but fitted with a BFN (Blank Firing Nut) which is also signal red. No BFAs such as for the rifle, F88 are ever yellow, Red is the colour used here. 

Also on the Minimi, a red plastic carrying handle is incorperated as is on the MAG 58 (C6) too.

BFBs are  are numbered ‘3‘, and the spare live barrel ‘2‘. Example for a F89A1 would be the serial number AM961234-3 would be a BFB for the life of the gun, or barrel which ever comes first. AM961234-2, would be a spare live firer. Ones marked simply with the serial number, known here as an ARN (Army Registered Number) are the primary live firer.

We have dedicated BFBs for the F89A1, the MAG 58, and 12.7 x 99 browning M2 QCB has a factory only BFB.

More wierd Australian military facts.

Cheers,

Wes


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## CI Dumaran (6 May 2004)

The AN/PEQ2 now cdn issue? or is that just for proto purposes?

Thanks for the pics DNA, quite sexy indeed.


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## Mortar guy (30 May 2004)

Hello to everyone here at Army.ca. I am new to this board. As for the C9A2, I posted that info on the Canadian Forces forum so I can answer some of your questions on the new weapon. The two barrel lengths are just as someone stated: the long on for normal use and the short one for CQB/FIBUA roles. Each C9A2 gunner will be issued 2 long and 2 short barrels. The cloth bags are already in the system and have been issued to some of the guys in Kabul. Also, the C9A2 is equipped with the Tri-rail mount to mount the AN/PAC-4C (not the PEQ-2A) Laser Aiming Device and the Surefire flashlight. It also has a collapsible C8 style butt with a buffer which lowers the rate of fire a little. Anyway, I hope this helps.

Pro Patria

Alex


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## gremlin (30 May 2004)

The powder coat seems to be a little thin so i have my doubts about the durability of it. As for the buffer slowing the rate of fire, there is no buffer in the butt of the C9. The buffer is the thick yellow spring on the end return spring rod. The rate of fire is set by the gas nut located in the gas block on the front of the barrel.  
   The reason the C79 sight is used on the C9A1 and A2 is because of the light gathering properties of the sight allow an extra half hour to an hour of improved sight at dawn and dusk (also the gunner can use the reticle to judge distance and call target info to the section) as for the A2's the origanal C9 iron sight is used as well as the upgraded Zero retaining C79 sight.  
   Finally I haven't seen the long barrels issued just the short ones maybe NDHQ just bought the one type, or the others will be held centrally and issued as required for the mission.


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## D-n-A (30 May 2004)

Mortar guy said:
			
		

> AN/PAC-4C (not the PEQ-2A) Laser Aiming



Ah, your right. I got the PEQ2 info from another site, but I read somewhere else that is is the Pac4


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## Mortar guy (31 May 2004)

Gremlin,

There is most certainly a buffer in the butt of the C9A2 and I am pretty sure I know what a buffer is! Take a close look at the pictures, the C9A2 has a C8 butt and within that butt is a buffer and spring assembly. I know this because my friend is the project manager for the C9A2 at DLR and he told me this. Also, the long and short barrels are most definitely being issued together. I don't know where you would have seen the short barrel as they haven't finished trials yet (unless you're in the lucky unit doing the trials   . The long barrels have been in the system since the C9 entered service in the early '90s. The C9A2 will have a new long barrel that has a floding carrying handle and a new gas regulator. Other than that, it is the same as the old long barrel. Hope this helps clear things up for you.

Alex


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## Doug VT (31 May 2004)

Sorry Mortar Guy, If you knew the operation of the C9, you would know that even if there was a buffer inside of the C8 style collapsing butt, it would be of no use.   This buffer is made for the bolt in the C7/C8 weapons.   The C9 works entirely off a return spring which is contained completely internal to the weapon.   Unless somehow they've changed the system, which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever (it would be a COMPLETE system overhaul!)   The butt is telescopic, and that's all, stop trying to complicate the issue.


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## Ex-Dragoon (31 May 2004)

Busted lol


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## Jarnhamar (31 May 2004)

> I know this because my friend is the project manager for the C9A2 at DLR and he told me this.



Well on the bright side maybe theres going to be a position opening up at DLR for an aspiring project manager


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## Jarnhamar (31 May 2004)

:fifty:


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## Spr.Earl (1 Jun 2004)

Whats with our DOH HEADS !! 

The weapon is a light Machine Gun,to aid a section to suppress fire while in the attack.
Or too lay fire down while redrawing.
Why the scope?


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## Mortar guy (1 Jun 2004)

Guys,

I know I am new here so I don't have much credibility so I thought I would post the info I got from the Project Manager at DLR. In this email he explained exactly what mods will be made to the C9A2. I direct your attention to paragraph 1:



> Here are the C9A2 upgrades:
> 
> 5.56mm, LMG, C9A2.
> 
> ...



Also, I was a Small Arms instructor at the Infantry School for a year and have been in the infantry for over a decade now. Maybe this will convince you that I am not talking out of my ass! Cheers

Alex


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## Bzzliteyr (1 Jun 2004)

If the butt will have the ability to "fold in".. how can it be used as a buffer??   It would be rendered useless in the event of it being folded, wouldn't it?   What I think we have is two seperate things in the same paragraph:   1. a hydraulic buffer system installed in the housing of the weapon itself and
2. a collapsible butt that is identical to the C8 butt and will be "foldable"

Does that sound more plausible?


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## Mortar guy (1 Jun 2004)

That is a damn fine question and one I hadn't thought of. I have seen the C9A2 and the butt is designed to fold forward to one side. Perhaps the weapon cannot fire unless the butt is to the rear? I will have to ask my buddy about this one. I'll get back to you.

Alex


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## Smoothbore (1 Jun 2004)

If the optical scope is so useless why did American forces in Iraq install it on their M249 SAW's?


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## 48Highlander (1 Jun 2004)

Small arms instructor my ass.  Anyone who'se ever seen the inside of the C9 would understand exactly what that e-mails was refering to.  Just for the sake of everyone elsethough,  I'll explain it:  The C9 guide rod and return spring (which are in the body of the weapon, not the butt mortar guy) is being replaced by a hydraulic rod.  Because the hydraulic rod provides more resistance than the spring, it slows the rate of fire somewhat.  The butt itself is immaterial to the operation of the weapon.  You could cut the whole thing off and just fire the weapon from the hip if you wanted to because all of the working parts are within the body of the weapon.  Just like a C6 and the .50cal.


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## Ex-Dragoon (1 Jun 2004)

I read this someplace and I am sure it will be corrected but from what I understand the sight gathered light in the early morning and early evening hours which was why it was mounted because it helped with seeing the bad guys.


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## Mike Bobbitt (1 Jun 2004)

Maybe these pics will help... I assume the new collapsing stock looks like some of these:

http://dboy.cpgl.net/fn/minimi/photos.htm

Note the pics with the stock pushed in. I suspect the buffer system is listed in the same para as the stock because it (or at least parts of it) are permanently attached.


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## Mortar guy (1 Jun 2004)

Hey 48Highlander calm down a bit there buds. I'm sure your 116 days of combined reserve experience have taught you alot but you don't know everything. You doubt my credentials or the info I post here? Do you treat all new people here with such hospitality? I apologize for mistaking this board for a place of serious, mature discussion.


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## Jarnhamar (1 Jun 2004)

> Do you treat all new people here with such hospitality?



usually only new recruits

heh just kidding, couldnt help it.


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## Doug VT (2 Jun 2004)

That sounds about right to me.  Only a minor mistake in the way the info was presented.  Makes complete sense now.  The midlife upgrades for weapons are usually just add-ons, not complete mechanism changes.  No need to get all upset here everyone, it was just a simple misunderstanding.


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## Celtic1VP (30 Aug 2005)

i'm new on this whole forum thing but give me a chance. i'm a c9 gunner in my section and i've found that the soft ammo pouch isn't the greatest, if u don't load it just right then in the middle of an attack the belts gonna break and ur useless. and as for having 4 barrels, that's fine and dandy but carrying my spare barrel now is a pain i usually just leave the spare in the lav on ex because we're not allowed to use it as we haven't zeroed with it. probly wont b allowed to use the short barrels either for that same reason.


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## KevinB (30 Aug 2005)

Geez look what happens when I dont pay attention to the weapons forum...
 :blotto:


 The current C9A2's DO NOT have the hydraulic buffer like the US M249/Mk46 and Minimi PI.   Why - cause the butt was still a trial item - we had both folding stock mounts and fixed - both used the C8 telestock.

 For those who wish to envision the buffer - think C6 Buttstock and SF kit buttplate - there is your hydraulic buffer.

The current issue C9A2 buttstock has a blue plastic schnib where the hydralic buffer will go - as for the its there comments - yeah just like our ambi safety's on the C8SFW's and C7A2's   :

 Project Managers are fine - Diemaco shipment reality is something else


The soft pouch is a patrolling item - designed to make it quiet - no slosh slosh slosh of ammo against the plastic - it is NOT for playing silly bugger on the badlands of Wainwright.


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## Britney Spears (30 Aug 2005)

Sorry, do you mean the butts are STILL in trial? Or that the trial is done, and the hydraulic buffer was found to be unneccesary?


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## KevinB (30 Aug 2005)

I'm guessing it meant - they are not ready yet  

 OR - we are to cheap, and are sticking with the rubber/plastic insert thingy...  ;D


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## Fusaki (30 Aug 2005)

> yeah just like our ambi safety's on the C8SFW's and C7A2's



These actually exist, and I saw it with my own eyes... on one C7A2, issued to one of truckers who was driving us to KAIA on the way home...

As for the soft pouches, the only good thing about them was that they didn't fall off the weapon after being banged up a bit. When you set your C9 down on the bipod, the belt tends to fold inside the bag and cause stoppages. True, it does make less noise while walking, but IMHO this does not outweigh the risk of stoppages when firing from the prone.

I was lucky enough to scrounge a US plastic C9 drum, which had a metal latch/clip thingy instead of the plastic Canadian one. This was quite a bit more rugged and lasted me a few months of regular use and abuse. As well, I got a couple pieces of cardboard to line the bottom and back side of the box which reduced noise pretty well. Some guys disagree with this and say it could lead to stoppages, but whenever I pulled my ammo out to count my rounds (about once a month) the belt came out of the box smoothly and I wasn't too worried.

The recce boys were issued the smaller 100rd soft pouches, which I think would have been a good alternative, but I've never played with these personally.


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## KevinB (30 Aug 2005)

Ah - yeah the 100rd AusCam ones?  They seem to be 100% better than the 200rd OD ones.


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## 1feral1 (30 Aug 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> Geez look what happens when I dont pay attention to the weapons forum...
> :blotto:
> 
> 
> ...




I'll take my camera into work tomorrow and get a few pics of the hydraulic buffer which we use the 'stock std' ADI F89A1(P) LSW. Our Para Minimi's do not have the buffer, as the same as the French and Malaysian versions.

Secondly, I thought the CF are using our surplus AUSCAM canvas mags in 100rd capacity.

Thoughts?

Cheers,

Wes


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## Spr.Earl (30 Aug 2005)

Who cares as long as I can kill the bastard.  ;D


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## KevinB (30 Aug 2005)

Wes,  We have both the 100rd in AusCam and 200rd in OD - the 200rds ones SUCK ASS (want to get in a 200rds fight - use the plastic box...)  Unfortunately someone fell victim to the more is better concept the 200rd'ers never should have been done. (or at least not released until they worked)


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## Britney Spears (30 Aug 2005)

If our personal kit keeps improving at the same startling speed it has maintained for the last 2 or 3 years, I predict by next year we'll all be walking around with scarlett tunics, white crossbelts, and Martini-Henris, wondering when the new rucksacks are going to show up. Better start working on that moustache, guys, or you'll look like a fool!

Anyone know where to get the Auscam 100rd bags? I know the question has been asked before but I never found a satisfactory answer. It may be the second item of non-issued kit I ever buy.


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## 1feral1 (31 Aug 2005)

General issue here are the 100rd ones only, although I have seen the 200rd'rs out and about. I took those pics of the Minimi buffer a few minutes ago, and when I get home, I'll post them.

Cheers,

Wes


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## 1feral1 (31 Aug 2005)

Here is some pics for all to enjoy. Note the buffer, as opposed to the dummy buffers the CF use. These buffers work well on our FN/ADI F89A1(P) 'hybrids', and are good value.

Over the years I have replaced very few of these buffers, and replace them if they leak oil. I have no idea of the viscosity of the oil, and therefore I cannot say how they would function in those wickedly cold winter days back in the Land of the Maple Leaf, so maybe thats why the CF never adopted them, who knows. Mind you, it can drop anywhere from -15C to -20C here in our southern Alps in the Australian winter, so even without windchill thats cold even by my now spoiled standards.

Like the stack of Minimi 100rd mags?   ;D


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## KevinB (31 Aug 2005)

I wonder what the shipping woudl be like  ;D

Thanks Wes.  The only C8/M4 telestock hydraulic buffer I've seen for the C9/M249/Mk46 was done by Rich Fitzpatrick at MAGPUL (with a Magpul stock).


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## Eric_911 (9 Feb 2009)

I hate to ressurect such an old thread, but my question does not really merit a new one.

Any chance somebody could post nice, decent picture or two of the C9A2? (perhaps a pic of the butt in each position?) I would have snapped a pic myself overseas, but the first one I saw was just a couple days before my rip out, and I was bouncing around doing a handover.

I have seen it, (although didnt get to fondle it), and from what I can see, the pics which are posted on the "C9A2" threads are of foreign MINIMI's, as well as a few pics of a prototype C9A2 (I say this because of the different flash suppressor on the short barrel, as well as a fixed telescopic butt instead of the folding one http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=21491.0;attach=788;image ). 

Thanks,
Eric


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## KevinB (16 Feb 2009)

The pic of the C9A2 demo, had a Minimi Para barrel on it.  The Para barrels have a different thread pitch than the C9 barrel.  Most C9A2's that I have seen have the C9 barrel that was cut down and re-threaded 1/2x28 which is the standard M16/C7 and C9 barrel thread.

 If anyone is looking for Para barrel flash-hiders (as a official order) we have a number of M249 Para flash hiders/mounts for our NT-4 QD Suppressor - they are similar to a C7 birdcage flashhider, but threaded for the FNC/Para barrel thread pitch (which currently escapes me)


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## Eric_911 (28 Feb 2009)

Eric_911 said:
			
		

> I hate to ressurect such an old thread, but my question does not really merit a new one.
> 
> Any chance somebody could post nice, decent picture or two of the C9A2? (perhaps a pic of the butt in each position?) I would have snapped a pic myself overseas, but the first one I saw was just a couple days before my rip out, and I was bouncing around doing a handover.
> 
> ...



Come on... anybody?? :-\


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## Oh No a Canadian (17 Jun 2009)

Found these on some Chinese site (scary eh?) while googling around.

First pic is with the stock folded in.
Second is of the front of the gun with the support grip folded down.
Third is the gun with the longer barrel and butt stock fully extended, and a flashlight and an AN-PEQ2 unit attached.
Fourth is the gun with the shorter barrel and the butt stock fully contracted. (I know this has already been posted but I added it just for comparison purposes.)

(first post with pictures hope it works.)


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## tech2002 (12 Jul 2009)

nice weapon..


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