# Every westerner should see this



## Red Hackle (8 Apr 2009)

This may be an eye opener for some but this is what we are up against fanning the flames in the middle east.

http://www.tangle.com/view_video.php?viewkey=0861ff3eabea1ceb73e4


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## mediocre1 (8 Apr 2009)

Red Hackle said:
			
		

> This may be an eye opener for some but this is what we are up against fanning the flames in the middle east.
> 
> http://www.tangle.com/view_video.php?viewkey=0861ff3eabea1ceb73e4



The man is truly the ideal and true embodiment of EVIL. Just cannot believe that there are  people like that. Because of what I saw, Sir Red Hackle, I am determined to sacrifice my life if necessary in the fight against terrorism. That is crazy!


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## benny88 (8 Apr 2009)

The scariest part is not what he's saying, we've heard all that before, it's that he's not saying it from a bunker behind a mask. He's in what appears to be some sort of reputable press conference speaking to what sounds to be a large crowd.  
   I doubt this video will come as a shock to anyone on this site, but it's an interesting watch.


Edit:


> I doubt this video will come as a shock to anyone on this site



I stand corrected:


			
				mediocre1 said:
			
		

> The man is truly the ideal and true embodiment of EVIL. Just cannot believe that there are  people like that. Because of what I saw, Sir Red Hackle, I am determined to sacrifice my life if necessary in the fight against terrorism. That is crazy!


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## BradCon (8 Apr 2009)

Ideas like this are why I chose to be a member


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## Michael OLeary (8 Apr 2009)

I see referrals to this video in the blogosphere, but has anyone found any clear evidence that the closed captioning is correct and accurate?


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## BradCon (8 Apr 2009)

I thought the same thing Michael.
That would be a tragedy if so, 
Some one out there is thinking this way


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## Michael OLeary (8 Apr 2009)

And it would be equally wrong to foster hatred based on this video if it is not, in fact, accurate.


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## Fiver (8 Apr 2009)

Well, the translation was made by MEMRI, and there's a lot of controversy about this "research institute"...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_Media_Research_Institute


> The accuracy of MEMRI's translations is sometimes disputed,[15] as in the case of MEMRI's translation of a 2004 Osama bin Laden video, which MEMRI defended.[32][33][10][27][34] Norman Finkelstein, in an interview with the Muslim newspaper In Focus said MEMRI "uses the same sort of propaganda techniques as the Nazis... _t’s a reliable assumption that anything MEMRI translates from the Middle East is going to be unreliable."[22]_


_

Where the excerpt came from: http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD224709

Also, the video was mostly spread through die-hard Christan blogs, advocating that we, well, for example:



			The comments of this kuwaiti professor is not surprising as it is totally compatible with the filthy bloody teachings of the filthy prophet of islam who did nothing but kill, pillage, loot and sleep with women. This professor's hatred of the West is typical of the islamic bloody mind. This professor doesn't know the One true God of the Universe Our Lord and God Jesus Christ and his protection of his children everywhere and that he is the One who will use the filthy schemes of muslims to bring islam and its darkness down once and for all.
		
Click to expand...

_


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## Red Hackle (8 Apr 2009)

There has been over 800,000 people that have seen it, sounds like from some of comments that they speak Arabic, I'm sure they would correct any errors in the translation.


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## Michael OLeary (8 Apr 2009)

And the likelihood that their comments would be allowed to remain on tangle.com is?

http://www.tangle.com/support/aboutus



> tangle is the new name of GodTube, our video-file sharing company.
> 
> 
> tangle is a social networking site that allows GodTube to expand its vision to reach more people with the ability to connect, share and grow online. It's a place where, in addition to sharing videos, our users can connect and share their faith and lives with others through photos, audio messages, blogs, prayers, music, causes and so much more.



Social networking sites do not always ensure credibility with their offerings.


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## mediocre1 (8 Apr 2009)

Red Hackle said:
			
		

> There has been over 800,000 people that have seen it, sounds like from some of comments that they speak Arabic, I'm sure they would correct any errors in the translation.



If it was allegedly bogus then I stand to be corrected.


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## logairoff (8 Apr 2009)

I just finished watching that and I can confirm that the translation is accurate.


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## Michael OLeary (8 Apr 2009)

logairoff said:
			
		

> I just finished watching that and I can confirm that the translation is accurate.



Thank you.  It is interesting that a Google search of the title doesn't turn up any sites other than blogs pointing at tangle.com.

Has anyone seen other sources for this?  Or any analysis commentaries from credible sources?


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## logairoff (8 Apr 2009)

Everyone watching this video just keep in mind that fanatics exist in every society and they all have followers. Don't make the mistake of assuming everyone who is arabic or is muslim has the same beliefs as this fanatic.


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## Teflon (8 Apr 2009)

logairoff said:
			
		

> Everyone watching this video just keep in mind that fanatics exist in every society and they all have followers. Don't make the mistake of assuming everyone who is arabic or is muslim has the same beliefs as this fanatic.



For sure, one just has to look at our own society here in the west, white supremacists, christen fanatics etc. fanatics exist in MANY flavours!


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## Fiver (8 Apr 2009)

Heh, about the guy in question:

http://www.zoominfo.com/people/Alnafisi_Abdulla_101260580.aspx


> Abdulla F. Alnafisi of Kuwait (b. 1945). In 1961 received his G.C.E. from Victoria College in Cairo, Egypt and later, received his B.A. in Politics from the American University in Beirut in 1967. Dr. Alnafisi continued on in this field and received his Ph.D. in Politics in 1972 from Cambridge University, UK, Churchill College. At one point he served as a member of the Parliament of Kuwait, and from 1972-78 he acted as chairman of the Department of Politics at the University of Kuwait. Currently Dr. Alnafisi serves as a professor at the University of Kuwait.



http://www.tsrn.us/blog/2009/03/20/following-memri-tv-clip-arab-liberals-denounce-kuwaiti-islamist-abdallah-al-nafisi/


> In a March 3, 2009 article in the Elaph e-journal, Jordanian-American liberal author Shaker Al-Nabulsi wrote: “… The aim of this article is not to reproach or condemn the Kuwaiti political scientist ‘Abdallah Al-Nafisi. It is simply an attempt to analyze the importance and danger of his political discourse, much of which is a call to the culture of terrorism, glorifies terrorism, encourages terrorism, and says that it is necessary to carry out terrorism. This has made him a new, Kuwaiti, Bin Laden.
> 
> “The importance and danger of ‘Abdallah ‘bin Laden’ Al-Nafisi lies in the fact that he is the greatest media propagandist for terrorism in the Arab world. He wraps his terrorist speeches in a layer of buffoonery, joking, and laughter, which makes them enter more easily into the heart and mind of the listener. He travels freely in the Arab world, and speaks freely and with great audacity.



http://brianakira.wordpress.com/2009/02/19/al-jazeera-kuwaiti-prof-praisesuggests-bio-attack-on-white-house-prays-for-bombing-of-us-nuclear-plant/


> In Kuwait, Dr Al-Nafisi is considered moderate and somewhat liberal.
> Dr Al-Nafisi is a long-time supporter of and theorist for The Muslim Brotherhood. [Khalil Al-anani, "The Brotherhood and the Gaza Crisis", 2009.01.31]
> Dr Al-Nafisi in 2002: “It is hard to distinguish between what is American and what is Zionist”.
> In 2006, Dr Al-Nafisi, speaking about Iranian plans for Iraq, warned of the danger of Shi’ism, a nightmare for the people of the Arabian Peninsula. On Al-Jazeera he stated that “We [Sunni Arabs] are now surrounded by a dreadful and unprecedented danger.” He emphasized the Iranian threat from the East and West (via Syria), and the Al-Hooti threat from the South (Saada, Yemen).



He doesn't represent the general view of the population, he's trying to convince them of his views. Many Arab journalists have been asking for the US and the Kuwait governments to arrest him.


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## Monsoon (8 Apr 2009)

I'm suspicious of the cuts in this video. I don't doubt that the speaker is a hard-liner who hates the west and encourages people to fight the coalition in Afghanistan, but that bit about the anthrax was cut off quickly. I kind of get the impression that he was saying that Al-Qaeda "could" have used anthrax or another WMD to attack the US and chose not to.

The laughter at the mention of 9-11 was also... odd. If this is a group of people who support bad things for the west, why laugh at what they should regard as a victory? He used the word "conspiracy" to describe it, and then later was talking about how white supremacist militias were going to attack the US from the inside and how they should pray that Allah supports them - but he doesn't go as far as to say that the people in the room should attack the US at home, only that they should resist them in the Middle East.

So here's my read of what he's saying: he believes 9-11 was a "conspiracy" organized by the west to use as a pretext to attack Muslims in the Middle East. The thinks that Al-Qaeda had the means to carry off a much worse attack using WMDs like anthrax, but chose not to attack the US because they are "freedom fighters" and not inclined to kill innocent civilians. He thinks that western society is fundamentally corrupt and will be taken down by radical groups from within. He encourages everyone to resist the westerners in the Middle East.

This is all (especially that conspiracy theory stuff) nothing new in Islamist circles. Definitely ugly, deluded and hateful - but I don't think he's advocating or giving people a recipe to kill 330,000 Americans using anthrax. Though maybe I just don't like to believe that anyone could warm to that thought.


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## logairoff (8 Apr 2009)

His name is "Abdallah Fahd Abd Al Aziz Al Nafisi" do a quick google search.

the cuts in this video I can say were done without a doubt to appeal to a Western audiences. He talks about the KKK and white supremicist groups but they cut that out. The person doing the editing wanted to capture the things that would interest a western audience. Nothing is wrong with that. I can confirm that this person has a deep hate for the west. you can tell even by his tone. I dont think anything was taken out of context. He babbles a lot so some of the editing was necessary.

The laughter at the 9/11 remark was actually because of an interesting difference in the translation. He said that the 4lbs suitcase is like "salad" compared to 9/11, referring to how easy it would be. In arabic that was a joke which was why you heard the laughter. It wasn't because of 9/11. He definitely is encouraging people to do harm to the US. If not in the anthrax remark than in the KKK and white supremicist remark where he says that they are trying to do harm to Americans, and wishes them luck.

I am not encouraging people to hate but I am trying to make sure that people like this are not able to hide behind translations. I will not defend this guy. He's slime! the things he says and advocates are despicable.


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## JBG (9 Apr 2009)

benny88 said:
			
		

> The scariest part is not what he's saying, we've heard all that before, it's that he's not saying it from a bunker behind a mask. He's in what appears to be some sort of reputable press conference speaking to what sounds to be a large crowd.
> I doubt this video will come as a shock to anyone on this site, but it's an interesting watch.
> 
> 
> ...


They say "you love life we love death". Let's give them what they love. In spades.


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## Fusaki (9 Apr 2009)

I'm about halfway through The Looming Tower by Lawrence Wright and I believe that so far it's helped me to put at least some of this video in context.  I am by no means an expert on this stuff, but I will throw this point out there to stimulate discussion. logairoff, I'm looking in your direction...

One thing that stick out in my mind:

-The notion of Takfir, or the declaring of those who consider themselves Muslims as non-believers and legitimate targets. At around 6:18 Dr Al-Nafisi declares that in the Koran Allah has dictated that Jews are the eternal enemy and anyone who would negotiate with them is therefore an infidel. I think it demonstrates that with these fanatics you are either with them or against them.  Even good Muslims can be declared takfir if they even suggest that peacefull negotiations can take place.

Am I using the term correctly? In the way that Islamic fundamentalists use it? How is Takfir described in "Western Islam"?


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## mediocre1 (9 Apr 2009)

Teflon said:
			
		

> For sure, one just has to look at our own society here in the west, white supremacists, christen fanatics etc. fanatics exist in MANY flavours!



The democratic West countries are governed by laws that debar these abominations. We have laws that  cover discrimination whether they be religious or race. Consider the laws that the Taliban has imposed. They're not only barbaric. They're crazy. It would be good to pay lip service to America for having been governed by reasonable laws.


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## Red Hackle (9 Apr 2009)

The big problem is that we hear that not all Muslims think this way. I understand, but we are not hearing from the moderates , they are too intimidated and content to just keep quiet . I'm sorry but the moderates are a huge part of the problem. They have to grow some and put it on the line. If they don't, this is going to get out of control. We have certainly done our part as a Country, the ball is in the moderates court. To boil it down... if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem and when you say this out comes the racists card. 

No more excuses please.

Hamas is already in Mexico ( I have that on good authority ) right now they are in the beginnings of supply drugs to the Mexican gangs, hence part of the gang wars down there . This being phase one, once they have raised enough funds they will send in Mexican runners with dirty bombs . The FBI is very concerned.


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## mediocre1 (9 Apr 2009)

Teflon said:
			
		

> For sure, one just has to look at our own society here in the west, white supremacists, christen fanatics etc. fanatics exist in MANY flavours!




The Taliban's code of conduct: An eye for an eye, a tooth for a  tooth. You don't find this  kind of conduct among Israel's and American's legal system.


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## Edward Campbell (9 Apr 2009)

mediocre1 said:
			
		

> The Taliban's code of conduct: An eye for an eye, a tooth for a  tooth. *You don't find this  kind of conduct among Israel's and American's legal system.*




Oh, for all the gods’ sakes! Of course you do! Old Testament, retributive justice is the very solid bed upon which our whole legal system rests.

As too “moderate Muslims” who should speak up – where are the “moderate” Christians when the fanatical, fundamentalists fringes of their coreligionists take to the airwaves and streets screaming and slobbering their intolerance? Ditto the moderate Hindus and moderate Sikhs and so on; where are they? Why is it just Muslims who must speak out against their own people?

Islam is not – or, if we want to win *this* war, ought not to be – our enemy. It (Islam) is in urgent need of a _reformation_ (to separate it from its crude, medieval Arab/Persian roots) and an _enlightenment_, too, for large parts of the Muslim world, but we do not need to make it our enemy. We have enough real enemies without creating new, unnecessary ones.


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## TimBit (9 Apr 2009)

mediocre1 said:
			
		

> The Taliban's code of conduct: An eye for an eye, a tooth for a  tooth. You don't find this  kind of conduct among Israel's and American's legal system.



hem... ever heard of Death penalty? How's that for an eye for an eye & al. Mind you, it is  a post by mediocre 1.


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## mediocre1 (9 Apr 2009)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Oh, for all the gods’ sakes! Of course you do! Old Testament, retributive justice is the very solid bed upon which our whole legal system rests.
> 
> As too “moderate Muslims” who should speak up – where are the “moderate” Christians when the fanatical, fundamentalists fringes of their coreligionists take to the airwaves and streets screaming and slobbering their intolerance? Ditto the moderate Hindus and moderate Sikhs and so on; where are they? Why is it just Muslims who must speak out against their own people?
> 
> Islam is not – or, if we want to win *this* war, ought not to be – our enemy. It (Islam) is in urgent need of a _reformation_ (to separate it from its crude, medieval Arab/Persian roots) and an _enlightenment_, too, for large parts of the Muslim world, but we do not need to make it our enemy. We have enough real enemies without creating new, unnecessary ones.



If retributive justice is the very solid bed upon which our legal system rests then there should have been no mitigating, attenuating circumstances to determine the penalty for the  crime.
Our legal system rests upon a code of conduct which every law abiding citizen must carry: Do not right a wrong with another wrong.


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## mediocre1 (9 Apr 2009)

TimBit said:
			
		

> hem... ever heard of Death penalty? How's that for an eye for an eye & al. Mind you, it is  a post by mediocre 1.



The death penalty is preventive. Who among us wants to die. So in able not to die, do not commit a heinous crime. Your argument then does not justify the Taliban's code of conduct.


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## Journeyman (9 Apr 2009)

mediocre1 said:
			
		

> The death penalty is preventive.


I _believe_ you consider the death penalty is a "deterent"....but you're right, it definitely is "preventive" -- not many re-offenders.   ;D


My favourite comment, posted after the video has to be:


> These people are crazy! He looks like he is on drugs. He keeps touching his hat and acting weird. That is scary!    It makes me so sad.


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## logairoff (9 Apr 2009)

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> I'm about halfway through The Looming Tower by Lawrence Wright and I believe that so far it's helped me to put at least some of this video in context.  I am by no means an expert on this stuff, but I will throw this point out there to stimulate discussion. logairoff, I'm looking in your direction...
> 
> One thing that stick out in my mind:
> 
> ...



Takfir in arabic is committing a sin and to ikfir is to commit a sin(something along the lines of contradicting the word of the lord). As you can see commiting a sin is not taken to kindly by the religious fanatics. Most people believe that god will punish you for committing a sin. The thing that seperates these folks from normal and most average people is the fact that they believe that if you commit a sin you must be punished now. They seem to think that it is their responsibility to punish you in order to preserve the word of the lord. Whether you like it or not we see this type of fanaticism in every religion. The ones that get the headlines are the ones that shock you the most. As much as people want to make arabs/muslims out to be our enemy that is simply not the case. I would say that they are our friends in this fight against a common enemy. 

Let me throw out a theory out there for people to think about. The Quran is written in arabic but as we all know there are a lot of people who are muslim and not necessarily arabic. For example India, Pakistan, Afghanistan etc. The Quran is an ancient text never changed therefore it is very hard to understand even by arabs. There are arabic scholars who dedicate their whole life to studying and trying to understand the Quran. How do people who don't speak arabic understand this thing if even arabic speaking people have a hard time with it. 

Here's where the problem comes in. I believe this doesn't get nearly as much focus but it should. Do a quick search on Wahabi muslims on google. These people ae a small minority when it comes to muslims and they can be found mostly in Saudia Arabia and Egypt. The one thing they have a lot of is money. Being the "good" muslims they believe they are they translate the Quran for non arabic speaking countries such as Pakistan, India, Afghanistan etc. Ofcourse, we all know that translations create problems because when you translate you have to interpret some things. The problem is that these people interpret the Quran into their beliefs of what islam is/should be or what the Quaran is saying acording to them. 

I already mentioned that arabic scholars spend their whole lives studying this thing yet these people come and interpret/translate this text into different languages. The translated text is then spread to Afghanistan, India, Pakistan and so on. Now these non arabic speaking people are reading the word of the lord according to wahabis and they believe they are practicing the true islam. They don't know/care that the Quaran has already been filtered for them by these wahabi extremists. Having a lot of money the Whahabis actually hand out this translated version of the Quaran and start schools in these countries speading their form of Islam for free. You think these populations that have never had a school or a book given to them for free aren't grateful? It is unfortunate that these wahabis are protected by a king and by a lot of resources. 

This is what I think is the root cause of Islamic extremisim feel free to research this theory and believe what you wish. This is just something to think about before putting the blame on all arabs/muslims.


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## Journeyman (9 Apr 2009)

logairoff said:
			
		

> The problem is that these people interpret the Quran into their beliefs of what islam is/should be or what the Quaran is saying acording to them.


At which point societal emphasis is on _taqlid_, "imitation"; ie - don't think about it; just act as you've been told.

The opposite, within Islamic law, is _ijtihad_, or "independent interpretation of the legal sources" (Qur'an and the Sunnah). Needless to say, the Imams very actively discourage ijtihad.


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## Monsoon (9 Apr 2009)

Red Hackle said:
			
		

> The big problem is that we hear that not all Muslims think this way. I understand, but we are not hearing from the moderates , they are too intimidated and content to just keep quiet .


Well, that's a good point - but remember just who translated and distributed the video we're discussing. MEMRI is, so far as I can tell, solely dedicated to translating and spreading the very worst of the Arab world for the west to see and shape beliefs from. No organization can get funded to translate and distribute texts of conciliatory speeches by moderate imams - and if they did we wouldn't read them. There's a bit of a selection bias at work here.


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## JBG (10 Apr 2009)

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> Well, that's a good point - but remember just who translated and distributed the video we're discussing. MEMRI is, so far as I can tell, solely dedicated to translating and spreading the very worst of the Arab world for the west to see and shape beliefs from. No organization can get funded to translate and distribute texts of conciliatory speeches by moderate imams - and if they did we wouldn't read them. There's a bit of a selection bias at work here.


I'm sure Saudi Arabia could find the money to fund the moderates' positions being publicized if they existed.


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## Michael OLeary (10 Apr 2009)

JBG said:
			
		

> I'm sure Saudi Arabia could find the money to fund the moderates' positions being publicized if they existed.



If they existed?

You can, of course, now provide credible proof that moderate Muslim Imams do not exist, right?


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## Michael OLeary (10 Apr 2009)

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> Well, that's a good point - but remember just who translated and distributed the video we're discussing. MEMRI is, so far as I can tell, solely dedicated to translating and spreading the very worst of the Arab world for the west to see and shape beliefs from. No organization can get funded to translate and distribute texts of conciliatory speeches by moderate imams - and if they did we wouldn't read them. There's a bit of a selection bias at work here.



Yes, and for that same reason they are looking for reactions of outrage, to select as the representative examples of the Western opinion of Muslims for those without the resources to see them as extreme examples.


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## Weinie (10 Apr 2009)

Quote from a previous poster

"If they existed?

You can, of course, now provide credible proof that moderate Muslim Imams do not exist, right?"

  The counter argument is that there are large numbers of "moderate Muslims everywhere" as many commentators would have us believe. You can of course, provide credible proof that moderate Muslims do exist.


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## Michael OLeary (10 Apr 2009)

Weinie said:
			
		

> The counter argument is that there are large numbers of "moderate Muslims everywhere" as many commentators would have us believe. You can of course, provide credible proof that moderate Muslims do exist.



So you also believe that every Muslim is an extremist?

Well, I stand corrected. You can go back to building your bomb shelter now, I'll try not to disturb your belief structure again.


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## Fiver (10 Apr 2009)

You should be ashamed of having made such a mistake, Michael. It is, after all, well documented and known that the human mind is very simple and we all think the same. It's because of those magical barriers around each regions of the world making everyone born inside a particular region think the exact same way. It sure is a boring world without all those debates and controversies we would experience if we had more complex thoughts. Bless the Overmind!


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## Michael OLeary (10 Apr 2009)

I've always had a problem synching with the hive mind.  perhaps I don't take enough supplements for perceptual modification.


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## Franko (10 Apr 2009)

:

Locked.

Some people have their tinfoil hat on WAY too tight.
*
the Army.ca Staff*


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