# New flying suits & jackets going on trial



## Ping Monkey (4 Feb 2008)

Just heard that starting this month, a select few persons in 17 Wing Winnipeg, 15 Wing Moose Jaw, and 3CFFTS Southport will be trialling a new version of the flying suit and jacket.

Looks like the design is trying to bring us in line with the style currently worn by our US/UK/Aussie/NZ colleagues.

Nothing mentioned about a new two-piece ensemble yet.


----------



## benny88 (4 Feb 2008)

Classy...


Just out of curiosity, if something like this gets approved, how often would it take to work it's way into the system? And also, is there a shortage of or dissatisfaction with the current flight suits?


----------



## Eye In The Sky (4 Feb 2008)

All information on the Air Force Clothing & Equipment - Millennium Standard (CEMS) Project can be found at the link below.  Use the "About The Project" link on the left for timelines and such.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/cems/index_e.htm


----------



## geo (4 Feb 2008)

funny thing is.... the artwork says NOV 06 and we are now FEB 08.
So someone has been plodding around 14 months trying to make this work... and we're only trialing something that other airforces are already wearing?..... Unbelievable!


----------



## dapaterson (4 Feb 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> funny thing is.... the artwork says NOV 06 and we are now FEB 08.
> So someone has been plodding around 14 months trying to make this work... and we're only trialing something that other airforces are already wearing?..... Unbelievable!



Yes - unbelievable indeed.  If this was the Army's CTS team it would take at least 4 years to get that far along


----------



## geo (4 Feb 2008)

DAP, I bet you're still waiting for your Cadpat raingear


----------



## Sf2 (4 Feb 2008)

meh...I'll believe it when I see it.


----------



## Zoomie (4 Feb 2008)

This trial is in it's final phase. 

Current "interim" flying suits are no longer on contract and only enough to suffice for a couple of years were bought - so this *is *going to happen.

Trials are also being done at 19 Wing Comox - I believe the trial is AF wide.

Just so we can also squash the rumours - this flying suit is not one that is in current stock anywhere in the world - so we are not rehashing someone else's design.


----------



## Strike (4 Feb 2008)

The only thing I don't like is the rank placement (has been discussed at other sites).  The way it's sitting right now is slapping the slip-on on the chest.  Either keep it on the shoulder, throw it on the name tag, or get a different design to put on the chest.  The slip-on is just too darned big!


----------



## I_am_John_Galt (4 Feb 2008)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> Just so we can also squash the rumours - this flying suit is not one that is in current stock anywhere in the world - so we are not rehashing someone else's design.



As in; no other country is stupid enough to put pen pockets on their shins!


----------



## Strike (5 Feb 2008)

Aden_Gatling said:
			
		

> As in; no other country is stupid enough to put pen pockets on their shins!



The whole reason they were moved off the arm was because of the high probablility  of someone's arm getting ripped up because of pens getting caught on the lip of the cockpit during ejection.  This was especially likepy in the older seats with a "curtain" system or the handles on the sides of the seat as oposed to the middle.

(Ah, how the young'uns forget.)

Pen pockets in the shins aren't that bad if you're not crammed in the seat.


----------



## Good2Golf (5 Feb 2008)

Aden_Gatling said:
			
		

> As in; no other country is stupid enough to put pen pockets on their shins!



 ???

You may find when you transition from a learning environment to an operational environment that your shin is one of the few places you still have unrestricted access to for stowage of writing implements.   

G2G


----------



## George Wallace (5 Feb 2008)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> ???
> 
> You may find when you transition from a learning environment to an operational environment that your shin is one of the few places you still have unrestricted access to for stowage of writing implements.
> 
> G2G



......And not only in aircraft.


----------



## I_am_John_Galt (5 Feb 2008)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> ???
> 
> You may find when you transition from a learning environment to an operational environment that your shin is one of the few places you still have unrestricted access to for stowage of writing implements.
> 
> G2G



I seriously doubt it!  I find it a huge PITA; on my kneeboard (for example) is *far* more convenient.  Moreover, yesterday I fogot to stuff my pens into my jacket (there's no way to secure them, so you just have to hope one doesn't drop)  and it took me 10 minutes to get one working after my walkaround.  I've never heard anyone complain about them on their sleeves (even forearm would work much better).


----------



## aesop081 (5 Feb 2008)

and where they are now, 1500 hours later, still works perfect for me.


----------



## Sf2 (5 Feb 2008)

Kneeboards?  Lol...does anyone still use those?  I haven't touched mine since MJ.  And have yet to see ANYONE at the sqn use one either.

75% of the time, I'm flying with a jacket, so unless the jacket has pen holders in the sleeves too, I see no purpose in having pens on the sleeves of the suits either.


----------



## I_am_John_Galt (5 Feb 2008)

Strike said:
			
		

> The whole reason they were moved off the arm was because of the high probablility  of someone's arm getting ripped up because of pens getting caught on the lip of the cockpit during ejection.  This was especially likepy in the older seats with a "curtain" system or the handles on the sides of the seat as oposed to the middle.
> 
> (Ah, how the young'uns forget.)


Has that ever happened?  It that even physically possible on any airframe we have?



> Pen pockets in the shins aren't that bad if you're not crammed in the seat.


 Bunny pants + ejection seat a/c = crammed in the seat.




			
				CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> and where they are now, 1500 hours later, still works perfect for me.


 And when was the last time you did a walkaround at -22 (or -30 for that matter)?




			
				SF2 said:
			
		

> Kneeboards?  Lol...does anyone still use those?  I haven't touched mine since MJ.  And have yet to see ANYONE at the sqn use one either.
> 
> 75% of the time, I'm flying with a jacket, so unless the jacket has pen holders in the sleeves too, I see no purpose in having pens on the sleeves of the suits either.


 And I have pet pockets on both shins of both my flightsuit and my bunny pants: I fail to see how that is any better (at least in that regard).


I don't mean to give the impression that it's keeping me up at night, it's just that I find it silly to use design that seems functional, but has proven on more than one occasion (as in me yesterday a little before I wrote that post) to be worse than useless!


----------



## aesop081 (5 Feb 2008)

Aden_Gatling said:
			
		

> And when was the last time you did a walkaround at -22 (or -30 for that matter)?



Feb 2005 for my checkride on the CT-142 in Winnipeg. For the record it was alot colder that -22 so i've BTDT


----------



## Good2Golf (5 Feb 2008)

Aden_Gatling said:
			
		

> ...I don't mean to give the impression that it's keeping me up at night, it's just that I find it silly to use design that seems functional, but has proven on more than one occasion (as in me yesterday a little before I wrote that post) to be worse than useless!




What's worse than useless?  Dangerous?  

Ask ArmyVern how to fill out a UCR then, and get the leg pen holder taken off.  In fact, Cc: the Director of Flight Safety while you're at it...   :

Tha fact that you're implying a Nation is stupid if it allows its military to design equipment to be flexibly tailored to a number of operational communities speak wonders.

G2G


----------



## I_am_John_Galt (5 Feb 2008)

This is going nowhere: it's not a safety concern, but a pen pocket that, if one uses it, renders the pen useless IS worse than useless, in my book.  That's all.

Out.


----------



## Strike (5 Feb 2008)

Aden_Gatling said:
			
		

> It that even physically possible on any airframe we have?


Tutor...Handles on the side of the seat.  And before we all go on about how they were retired years ago and only the Snowbirds were flying, keep in mind we were just getting the "interim" flight suit then.



			
				Aden_Gatling said:
			
		

> Bunny pants + ejection seat a/c = crammed in the seat.



Ohhh, that's just too easy.  Really, as a future pilot, you shouldn't set yourself up so easily.   ;D



			
				Aden_Gatling said:
			
		

> And when was the last time you did a walkaround at -22 (or -30 for that matter)?



Me?  All the way through my training, never in Halifax (but we all know a dry cold is not as bad as a damp cold...), and for 3 years in Petawawa.  In fact, I'm pretty sure everyone out west was pulling that off last week.


----------



## George Wallace (5 Feb 2008)

Aden_Gatling said:
			
		

> This is going nowhere: it's not a safety concern, but a pen pocket that, if one uses it, renders the pen useless IS worse than useless, in my book.  That's all.
> 
> Out.



If I am reading that correctly, you have a lot of ink stains in your uniforms.  That is the only way I can figure your statement that the pockets render pens useless.........ie. broken.


----------



## aesop081 (5 Feb 2008)

Aden_Gatling said:
			
		

> but a pen pocket that, if one uses it, renders the pen useless IS worse than useless, *in my book*.  That's all.



Works just fine for me, like i said. Others here don't mind it either. This is going nowhere because others dont share you displeasure with it. On *my* aircraft, in *my* job, the placement is perfect.


----------



## GAP (5 Feb 2008)

Strike said:
			
		

> Me?  All the way through my training, never in Halifax (but we all know a dry cold is not as bad as a damp cold...), and for 3 years in Petawawa.  In fact, I'm pretty sure everyone out west was pulling that off last week.




And the week before, and the week before, and the week before, except wednesday, but we got double on thursday.....uh....this guy does realize that -22 is only a piddling -8 F huh?


----------



## SupersonicMax (5 Feb 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Works just fine for me, like i said. Others here don't mind it either. This is going nowhere because others dont share you displeasure with it. On *my* aircraft, in *my* job, the placement is perfect.



In your job, you sit in the back of an aircraft, with plenty of room to have pens wherever you possible want, any chart or paper you want and even probably a table to write on.  On ejection seat aircrafts, you don't have all that confort.  With the bunny pants, the LPSV, the harness, the winter jacket, even for a small guy like me, there isn't much room to move around.  Reaching for a pen down is actually, hard!!  Flight suits have to accomodate every community, every jobs.  We can't possibly have different flight suits for every trade/airframe.  Having a pen on the arms would make my life a little easier.

Max


----------



## Strike (5 Feb 2008)

Max, I'm sure it would.  But if I can reach my pens while flying an aircraft that requires me to keep my feet on the pedals 100% of the time, I think you can shift a little to get to the ones on your leg.  (Yes, a little helo vs jet dig there.)  Trust me.  Reaching across your chest while wearing bunny pants, an LPSV, and a harness, is no easy feat either.  One of my jackets in MJ had those pockets.  I know I may be a little larger in the chest than you  ;D but I'm not THAT big.  And back then I was pretty darn scrawny.


----------



## SupersonicMax (5 Feb 2008)

Strike said:
			
		

> Max, I'm sure it would.  But if I can reach my pens while flying an aircraft that requires me to keep my feet on the pedals 100% of the time, I think you can shift a little to get to the ones on your leg.  (Yes, a little helo vs jet dig there.)  Trust me.  Reaching across your chest while wearing bunny pants, an LPSV, and a harness, is no easy feat either.  One of my jackets in MJ had those pockets.  I know I may be a little larger in the chest than you  ;D but I'm not THAT big.  And back then I was pretty darn scrawny.



How do you spell that, ruder?  What is it?  

You have a good point there Strike, but it might be because I'm small, I can reach my arm okay.  But I can imagine it can be harder for bigger people.

Max


----------



## Strike (5 Feb 2008)

Yes...that's exactly what it is.  And the two columns that I use to control the aircraft are a stick and throttle too. :

Oh, and it's R-U-D-D-E-R.


Anyway, as long as they keep both sets I'll be happy.  Never fails.  If you put your pens on your arms, you'll forget to take them out when you put your jacket on.  And if you put them on your shins, you'll forget about them when you put your bunny pants on.  At least there are zippers on the legs.  Either that, or we're all going to have to have 64 pens/pencils/omnichroms to fill all of our pockets.  Which means more for others to steal from us.


----------



## Infanteer (5 Feb 2008)

I'd love to see guys in Phase Training at the Infantry School telling OC's how things work.... ^-^


----------



## I_am_John_Galt (5 Feb 2008)

Because I apparently did not make myself clear enough:



			
				Strike said:
			
		

> Tutor...Handles on the side of the seat.  And before we all go on about how they were retired years ago and only the Snowbirds were flying, keep in mind we were just getting the "interim" flight suit then.


 I know that Tutors have ejection seat handles on the side: I was asking how a pen pocket on a pilot's sleeve could rip their arm off in an ejection (as in how could they get low enough in the seat for it to get caught on the lip of the cockpit).



> Me?  All the way through my training, never in Halifax (but we all know a dry cold is not as bad as a damp cold...), and for 3 years in Petawawa.  In fact, I'm pretty sure everyone out west was pulling that off last week.



No, not you (and others): I was replying to CDN Aviator's comment about how he had never had a problem with them.  I HAVE had problems with them, and we do different jobs.



			
				CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Works just fine for me, like i said. Others here don't mind it either. This is going nowhere because others dont share you displeasure with it. On *my* aircraft, in *my* job, the placement is perfect.


 Great, I'm happy for you: I am well aware of other pilots (perhaps not on Army.ca) that find the placement a PITA.



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> If I am reading that correctly, you have a lot of ink stains in your uniforms.  That is the only way I can figure your statement that the pockets render pens useless.........ie. broken.


Then you are not reading correctly; useless as in the cold coagulates (or whatever the term is) the ink so that they don't write.



			
				GAP said:
			
		

> And the week before, and the week before, and the week before, except wednesday, but we got double on thursday.....uh....this guy does realize that -22 is only a piddling -8 F huh?


That's my point: I'm not complaining about the cold (WTF?), I'm complaining about the fact that if I use my pen pockets, my pens will freeze in these temperatures.  And on top of that the placement is an ergonomic PITA: I can't figure out why they would do it ... but it's not that big of a deal.

So far there's been exactly two arguments about why they are better on the arms, neither of which is terribly convincing (1, because of some undisclosed environments where it is 'better', and 2, because of a safety issue that AFAIK no longer exists; pretty much every other air force in the world doesn't seem to share these concerns), and a whole bunch of 'well I don't have a problem with it' comments.


----------



## SupersonicMax (5 Feb 2008)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> I'd love to see guys in Phase Training at the Infantry School telling Major's how things work.... ^-^



You know Infanteer, the day you think you know everything about your job and you can't learn from people subordinate to you, it's time to retire.  

I just came back from a cross-country and I think my instructor learned just as much as I did, sometimes with my help (he's Australian, not really used to Canadian procedures).  There is nothing wrong with that.  We sat down, he explained stuff, I explained stuff and it just made us better pilots in the end.

Having said that, giving an opinion on something is not telling someone how it's done.  It telling someone how he feels about something.

Max


----------



## aesop081 (5 Feb 2008)

Aden_Gatling said:
			
		

> I was replying to CDN Aviator's comment about how he had never had a problem with them.  ............ and we do different jobs.



You asked me when the last time was that i did a walkaround at -22 or less. A walk around for me was no different that it is for you. I was frozen and wearing everything i owned. I still had to go over the entire aircraft exterior and interior. I could not see what it had to do with pen pockets and it certainly didnt have anything to do with different jobs.


----------



## George Wallace (5 Feb 2008)

Aden_Gatling said:
			
		

> George Wallace said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



OK.  So now I read you clearly.  You don't need pockets for pens, because they freeze on you in cold weather.  

And don't say you aren't talking about the cold, because obviously your are.


----------



## Sub_Guy (5 Feb 2008)

Way to go DuffMan!  See what you started, an entire thread on the placement of the pen holders.

I like the current placement for the pens, I haven't encountered a pen not working after a walk around on the CT-142, but that's probably because I use pencils   
(a lot of them too, stupid logs)

-22 for a check ride in Feb 05, that's shorts weather bro!


----------



## aesop081 (5 Feb 2008)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> -22 for a check ride in Feb 05, that's shorts weather bro!



I said it was COLDER than that


----------



## SupersonicMax (5 Feb 2008)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> Way to go DuffMan!  See what you started, an entire thread on the placement of the pen holders.
> 
> I like the current placement for the pens, I haven't encountered a pen not working after a walk around on the CT-142, *but that's probably because I use pencils   *
> (a lot of them too, stupid logs)
> ...



Unfortunately, at 2 CFFTS, we have to use the approved yellow pens in our cockpits.  FOD issues...

Max


----------



## Zoomie (5 Feb 2008)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> <snip> but that's probably because I use pencils  <snip>



BINGO - if you are of our F.A.G. brethren and your pens are freezing up - use a pencil.

Just so that we can all sleep tonight - the new designed flying suits have pen pockets on the legs (where they currently are) *and* on the arm pockets.

In the Operational community the placement of our pen pockets is not nearly as paramount as flying the plane effectively and safely.  We are all consummate professionals that adapt to our changing environment and manage with what we have got.  Grabbing a pen and replacing it is an instinctive reaction that requires zero thought process - I can't recall too much of MJ, but I don't remember a huge hassle with sub-zero walk-arounds and frozen pens.


----------



## Strike (5 Feb 2008)

All this and we STILL haven't talked about the rank placement...


----------



## Sub_Guy (5 Feb 2008)

IF anyone is concerned about pens freezing, check this out!

http://thewritersedge.com/story.main.cfm

"it is the only type of pen that will write satisfactorily in freezing cold (-50 degrees F) and extreme heat (+400 degrees F) and in the gravity-free vacuum of Space"


So without a doubt it will work in MJ!

You can thank me later.


----------



## Strike (5 Feb 2008)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> So without a doubt it will work in MJ!



But what about everywhere else? ;D


----------



## Loachman (5 Feb 2008)

Aden_Gatling said:
			
		

> As in; no other country is stupid enough to put pen pockets on their shins!



Au contraire - none other is bright enough.



			
				Aden_Gatling said:
			
		

> I know that Tutors have ejection seat handles on the side: I was asking how a pen pocket on a pilot's sleeve could rip their arm off in an ejection (as in how could they get low enough in the seat for it to get caught on the lip of the cockpit).



It didn't, but there was an ejection in the eighties or early nineties where a Tutor pilot's sleeve-born pens did catch and injury resulted. All sleeve pen pockets (these were only on the flying jackets and never the flying suits themselves, except for the Tac Hel shirts) were ordered sewn shut - including those of helicopter and other non-ejection-seat aircrew - as a result and the next batch of jackets and Tac Hel shirts came without them.



			
				Aden_Gatling said:
			
		

> I was replying to CDN Aviator's comment about how he had never had a problem with them.  I HAVE had problems with them, and we do different jobs.



Good, and thank-you very much for recognizing that last bit. Now, quit whining about something that many others, including those of us with way more experience than you LIKE and USE regularly, and don't use them yourself.



			
				Aden_Gatling said:
			
		

> Great, I'm happy for you: I am well aware of other pilots (perhaps not on Army.ca) that find the placement a PITA.



Then tell them to stop whining and stop using them too.



			
				Aden_Gatling said:
			
		

> I'm complaining about the fact that if I use my pen pockets, my pens will freeze in these temperatures.



Then find another place, and stop whining.



			
				Aden_Gatling said:
			
		

> And on top of that the placement is an ergonomic PITA: I can't figure out why they would do it ...



The placement is great for a lot of us, which is precisely why they put them there.



			
				Aden_Gatling said:
			
		

> but it's not that big of a deal.



Then why are you whining about it so much?



			
				Aden_Gatling said:
			
		

> So far there's been exactly two arguments about why they are better on the arms, neither of which is terribly convincing (1, because of some undisclosed environments where it is 'better', and 2, because of a safety issue that AFAIK no longer exists; pretty much every other air force in the world doesn't seem to share these concerns),



Then fill out a UCR suggesting that pen pockets be put back on the sleeves, where pens can freeze just as easily, and while you're waiting, stop whining.

Personally, I thought that ordering universal removal of these was dumb but I never used them myself, as I found that particular placement to be unsuitable for me. I just didn't whine about it, but used the much handier leg pockets.



			
				Aden_Gatling said:
			
		

> on my kneeboard (for example) is *far* more convenient.



Kneeboards don't work well in helicopters - too much interference betwixt cyclic and collective, and it's just one more piece of junk to have to carry out to the aircraft along with everything else that frequently has to be carried out.



			
				Aden_Gatling said:
			
		

> I've never heard anyone complain about them on their sleeves



Possibly because they can't carry them there anyway.

But seriously, I never heard any such complaints when such pockets did exist on sleeves. Not everybody found them useful, but we didn't whine about them being there.



			
				Aden_Gatling said:
			
		

> (even forearm would work much better).



That had occurred to me several years ago, but as I was content with the very useful leg pockets, I didn't bother pursuing the idea.



			
				Aden_Gatling said:
			
		

> And when was the last time you did a walkaround at -22 (or -30 for that matter)?



I've done a few off and on over one year shy of three decades and around four thousand hours of military flying, a bunch of which consisted of living out in temperatures colder than that during exercises, and you haven't even come close, laddybuck, so quit whining and don't use the ****ing pen pockets on your legs.



			
				Aden_Gatling said:
			
		

> I don't mean to give the impression that it's keeping me up at night,



Could have fooled me...



			
				Aden_Gatling said:
			
		

> it's just that I find it silly to use design that seems functional,



Then don't use them, and quit whining.



			
				Aden_Gatling said:
			
		

> but has proven on more than one occasion (as in me yesterday a little before I wrote that post) to be worse than useless!



Then don't use them, and quit whining. They work fine for many of us.



			
				Aden_Gatling said:
			
		

> This is going nowhere: it's not a safety concern, but a pen pocket that, if one uses it, renders the pen useless IS worse than useless, in my book.  That's all.



Then don't use them, and quit whining. They work fine for many of us.



			
				SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> In your job, you sit in the back of an aircraft, with plenty of room to have pens wherever you possible want, any chart or paper you want and even probably a table to write on.



And he wears a flying suit, too - so what's your point? He likes the leg pen pockets. So do I, and thousands of other aircrew over several decades. We aren't all spoiled wannabe fighter pukes with inflated egos, we're well beyond the student phase of our flying careers, and we don't whine over, and over, and over again.



			
				SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> On ejection seat aircrafts, you don't have all that confort.



I didn't in the Kiowa, either, and we couldn't use our heaters while flying tactically in the winter because the machine was underpowered. We'd often spend much longer in our cockpits than you're likely to, and couldn't trim the machine up and take our hands off of the controls either. We didn't whine about it, though. Those lower leg pen pockets sure came in handy.

The Griffon has a little more room, but those lower leg pen pockets still sure come in handy.



			
				SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> On ejection seat aircrafts, you don't have all that confort.



Spare me. Spend some time in Tac Hel. I'm sure that the Sea King or SAR community put up with far more than you, and with out whining about it.



			
				SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> With the bunny pants, the LPSV, the harness, the winter jacket, even for a small guy like me, there isn't much room to move around.



And you think that you're the only one who has to suffer like that? Poor baby...

You haven't tried flying with body armour or a gas mask either, I'll wager.



			
				SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Reaching for a pen down is actually, hard!!



I seem to manage to do so quite easily. It takes less effort to reach across to an opposite sleeve, especially with body armour or a gas mask on.



			
				SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Flight suits have to accomodate every community, every jobs.  We can't possibly have different flight suits for every trade/airframe.



Yes, so the leg pockets stay. Don't like 'em, don't use 'em. Just stop whining about them.



			
				SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Having a pen on the arms would make my life a little easier.



Fine. You seem to be getting that on the new flying suits anyway. If it doesn't happen, fill out a UCR each and request that they be added. In the mean time, stop whining.

I'm an extremely patient person, but this whining from two people with very litttle flying experience, and none operationally at all, has put my blood pressure up just a tad.

And yes, Strike, the placement of the rank insignia is absolutely stupid. It does give me an excuse to stare at your chest and others, though.

There's a survey section on the CEMS site. Put your comments there, and state that you feel extremely uncomfortable with males of all ranks and trades leering at your chest. If common sense won't prevail with rank placement, perhaps the harassment aspect will.


----------



## Strike (5 Feb 2008)

:rofl:

It's a good thing I put my glass of water down prior to reading that!

Now...go clean up your post mister!  It's a mess! ;D


----------



## Loachman (5 Feb 2008)

Done, finally, after repeat efforts.

Without whining either...


----------



## SupersonicMax (5 Feb 2008)

Loachman, I'm not whinning.  I couldn't care less if we kept the leg pen holders (actually, I wish they kept them for summer flying.  I love them in the summer).  But I would benefit from the arms pen holders.  My comments were pointed to the Navs/AESOPS/some multi engines aircrew (CND Aviator's comments).  Definately not helos, since you guys have your own flight suits and yes, you do have a small cockpit. I should have had specified that, my bad.



			
				CSA 105 said:
			
		

> *There is a time for ideas to flow back and forth and then there is a time for orders.    I wonder if your instructor would hold the same opionion of your cross country flight - maybe he's in the instructor lounge saying "Wow, that Max is sharp, he taught me so much, because the Canadian government put me behind the controls of a multimillion dollar flying machine without making sure I knew all the procedures... lucky me!"*



I probably had more experience than he had in a Canadian Instrument Flying Rules (IFR) environment (I did have some experience prior to this course).  He didn't have any Canadian IFR ground school.  Obviously, it's all smaller stuff but he questionned me a few times on smaller stuff, which I was glad to answer.  But that's not the point...  BTW, there is NO WAY to know everything...

Change of subject, anything new about this rank thing?

Max


----------



## Michael OLeary (5 Feb 2008)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Loachman, I'm not whinning.



Did you mean "winning" or "whining"?


----------



## dapaterson (5 Feb 2008)

CSA 105 said:
			
		

> ... we'd be kipped out in the hides or holding hands and singing kum-by-ya...



Dammit!  CSA 105 has broken the Log branch code!


----------



## aesop081 (5 Feb 2008)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> My comments were pointed to the Navs/AESOPS/some multi engines aircrew (CND Aviator's comments).



You should come visit some time. I dont have a whole lot of room to work. Much less than you seem to think and BTW, its not much  bigger than one of you ejection seat aircraft cockpit. With a Screen, big ass keyboard, joystick, 2 laptops, maps and charts, checklist, mission logs, all sorts of cables connecting everything.......i'm pretty damned cramped so spare me the lessons on how bad you have it.

Forgot to add that i also usualy have a navigator behind me who thinks its funny to drop his guts every 2 seconds........


----------



## Strike (5 Feb 2008)

Max and Aidan,

Flightsuits are for aircrew.  That means Navs, FEs, AESOPs, Mission Specialists (they are Army types), and sometimes even ATC and techs.  So ALL of their opinions on the flight suit are relevant.  Just because your aircraft doesn't carry a non-pilot type doesn't mean the others don't.  In fact, the majority of aircraft in the CF are manned by multiple trades.


----------



## armyvern (6 Feb 2008)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Dammit!  CSA 105 has broken the Log branch code!



He must have been spying on us all last Friday ...  >


----------



## Ping Monkey (6 Feb 2008)

> Way to go DuffMan!  See what you started, an entire thread on the placement of the pen holders.



Had I known this topic was going to generate such a heated debate I would have originally made the post asking "so what's the deal with those leg pen pockets?"  But as for that issue I think we can all agree on one thing... use them... or don't... nobody's going to get grief for NOT having a pen, pencil, crayon or spork in their leg pen pockets.

If people feel so strongly (one way or the other) perhaps they should contact CEMS or draft a UCR to ensure their suggestions are received BEFORE the trial period ends and we're stuck with a flightsuit that has pen pocket/rank placement where we don't want them.
:deadhorse:

And, by the trial design, it appears that somebody on the design team likes the idea of having pen holders on the sleeves (with covers to prevent inadvertent snags on equipment) and on the legs.  So now you get a choice!

Frankly, I'm more nervous about the possibility that these flightsuits might one day be produced in cadpat.... 


Begin pro/anti-cadpat rants now....
:argument:


----------



## armyvern (6 Feb 2008)

duffman said:
			
		

> Frankly, I'm more nervous about the possibility that these flightsuits might one day be produced in cadpat....
> Begin pro/anti-cadpat rants now.... :argument:



Geez, even I can do that!!

Plenty of helo flyers and air/ground crew around these parts wearing flight suits every day as part of their jobs who'd blend in much better with their work enviornment and their driveable beast if they were in a cadpat flightsuit.

I think it was said earlier ... not everyone is fast air.


----------



## Roy Harding (6 Feb 2008)

So, I'm just a simple Army guy - and I've only skimmed this thread - but I've got a question.

Why not put the pen pockets on BOTH the sleeve and the leg (hell - BOTH sleeves and BOTH legs (for lefties), and while we're at it - on the chest (where I like mine)) - and then you can use the one that you like/is appropriate to your load station?

I'm probably missing something obvious here - but I don't think so.


----------



## benny88 (6 Feb 2008)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> Why not put the pen pockets on BOTH the sleeve and the leg...
> I'm probably missing something obvious here - but I don't think so.



Got your back:



			
				Zoomie said:
			
		

> Just so that we can all sleep tonight - the new designed flying suits have pen pockets on the legs (where they currently are) *and* on the arm pockets.







			
				ArmyVern (Female type) said:
			
		

> I think it was said earlier ... not everyone is fast air.



   Even fast air may need the CADPAT should (knock on wood) they be forced to bail out in a tactical situation. I realize it's (especially right now) unlikely, and flame me all you want, but it's better to have and not need than need and not have. 
     There was a debate in a BSERE thread a few days ago, where people argued about wearing flight suits or CADPAT, with a lot of "train how you fight" going on, which CADPAT flight suits could solve nicely.


----------



## Roy Harding (6 Feb 2008)

benny88 said:
			
		

> Got your back:
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you.

As I said - I only skimmed this thread (and therefore should have kept my mouth shut), but having had that particular quote pointed out to me, I've got to ask - what's all the shootin' about?


----------



## SupersonicMax (6 Feb 2008)

Strike said:
			
		

> Max and Aidan,
> 
> Flightsuits are for aircrew.  That means Navs, FEs, AESOPs, Mission Specialists (they are Army types), and sometimes even ATC and techs.  So ALL of their opinions on the flight suit are relevant.  Just because your aircraft doesn't carry a non-pilot type doesn't mean the others don't.  In fact, the majority of aircraft in the CF are manned by multiple trades.



I agree 100%.  I'm just debating the utility of the pen holders on the arms.  Not the uselessness of those on the legs.

Max


----------



## Strike (6 Feb 2008)

Roy,

Although pen holders on the chest may seem like a good idea for those eaternally grounded  ;D let me put it in a context you would understand.  How would you get to your pen in your chest pocket while wearing armour and a TV?  Between an LPSV, cooling suit, armour, and harness, it would be a feat of doublejointedness.

The one thing I'm happy to see is that the clips will remain on both legs.  There was some talk they were going to go the way of the two-piece and only have them on one leg.  That's fine when you're in the same seat every day, but in the MH and TH worlds (don't know about the others, so won't speculate) captains and co-joes switch sides regularly.


----------



## benny88 (6 Feb 2008)

Strike,

    Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by clips. On the thighs for kneeboards?


----------



## Strike (6 Feb 2008)

As in clips on thighs to hold paper, maps, your touque, whatever.  Never used it in conjunction with a knee board though.


----------



## Roy Harding (6 Feb 2008)

Strike said:
			
		

> Roy,
> 
> Although pen holders on the chest may seem like a good idea for those eaternally grounded  ;D let me put it in a context you would understand.  How would you get to your pen in your chest pocket while wearing armour and a TV?  Between an LPSV, cooling suit, armour, and harness, it would be a feat of doublejointedness.
> 
> The one thing I'm happy to see is that the clips will remain on both legs.  There was some talk they were going to go the way of the two-piece and only have them on one leg.  That's fine when you're in the same seat every day, but in the MH and TH worlds (don't know about the others, so won't speculate) captains and co-joes switch sides regularly.



Fair enough - I think I said I was WAY outside my lane here (hey - I make furniture - my pencil, marking knife, six inch rule, and calculator are carried in chest pockets on my APRON).

But - the point I was (poorly) trying to make is why not have the pen holders in all four positions (both legs, both arms) - then the choice of which ones to use is up to the individual?

Edited to add:  A quick review of the thread reveals that I DIDN'T state that I was outside my lane.  I should have - because I am.  Sorry.


----------



## Sf2 (6 Feb 2008)

Would someone please explain to me how having these god forsaken sleeve holders prevents your pen from freezing??

I missed the boat on that one.....


----------



## Good2Golf (6 Feb 2008)

SF2 said:
			
		

> Would someone please explain to me how having these god forsaken sleeve holders prevents your pen from freezing??
> 
> I missed the boat on that one.....



Very high metabolism in huge pipes?  :-\

Apparently something aviators aren't blessed with...just Fast Air Group types....


----------



## SupersonicMax (6 Feb 2008)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Very high metabolism in huge pipes?  :-\
> 
> Apparently something aviators aren't blessed with...just Fast Air Group types....



I sure have huge pipes   : 



> Would someone please explain to me how having these god forsaken sleeve holders prevents your pen from freezing??
> 
> I missed the boat on that one.....



I don't understand that one eighter...

Max

Edited to add the quote.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (6 Feb 2008)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I sure have huge pipes   :  I don't understand that one eighter...
> 
> Max



Then don't worry about it.


----------



## Michael OLeary (6 Feb 2008)

If this thread doesn't find the original topic again soon, it's on it's way to Radio Chatter.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## Sf2 (6 Feb 2008)

the question is, will these new flight suits be able to accommodate these anti-pen-freezing pipes?


----------



## Globesmasher (6 Feb 2008)

Strike said:
			
		

> All this and we STILL haven't talked about the rank placement...



I personally love the location of the rank/slip-on "chest-paulette".
I am looking forward to walking around staring at the chests of female aircrew from now on!!!
Bring on these new flight suits!!!

This is purely from a professional point of view of course - so that I may render respects, greeting and salutations appropriately!   ;D

yeah baby!!

[Sorry Strike - I just couldn't resist.]  >


----------



## Strike (6 Feb 2008)

Clown. :clown:


----------



## Good2Golf (6 Feb 2008)

Strike, I'm not worried about the slip-on.  I'm just glad that many of the improvements that we recommended in the past were finally adopted on the new gear.  Covers for the pens is a good thing, as is the mandarin collar.  I like the waist tenstioners better, the crappy open velco ones were not great.

G2G


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (6 Feb 2008)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I don't understand that one eighter...



For a pedigree pilot your spelling is the shits.


----------



## Loachman (6 Feb 2008)

Maybe short for Charlie Foxtrot One Eighter. I don't understand those either - the wings don't turn like they do on proper flying machines.


----------



## Strike (7 Feb 2008)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> the crappy open velco ones were not great.
> 
> G2G



Yes, I especially like how my flt suit would come out of the wash in an unrecognizable bundle because of all the velcro getting stuck in one bug twisted mass.

Just remember, the less we complain, the more people should worry.


----------



## SupersonicMax (7 Feb 2008)

Lone Wolf Quagmire said:
			
		

> For a pedigree pilot your spelling is the shits.



Sorry, English isn't my first language.  I so my best to write it properly, sometimes it's not perfect.  Again, I apologize.

Max


----------



## Zoomie (7 Feb 2008)

Strike said:
			
		

> <snip> my flt suit would come out of the wash...



You wash your flight suit?  Maybe that's why my crew looks at me sideways.


----------



## bily052 (7 Feb 2008)

I can vouch for Strike...  Her Flightsuits are of the highest possible example of pride and dress as set out by the CF Dress Manual.

Now Remembrance Day was a different story...  (couple French fries and ketchup)  But that uniform did not have the problem of pens 
on the shin or upper arm.....

cheers


----------



## PMedMoe (7 Feb 2008)

AES Op - Jr said:
			
		

> Now Remembrance Day was a different story...



You can actually remember?  I lost track of time somewhere around 3 or 4 p.m.  (I think).  :-X


----------



## Strike (7 Feb 2008)

AES Op - Jr said:
			
		

> I can vouch for Strike...  Her Flightsuits are of the highest possible example of pride and dress as set out by the CF Dress Manual.
> 
> Now Remembrance Day was a different story...  (couple French fries and ketchup)  But that uniform did not have the problem of pens
> on the shin or upper arm.....
> ...



Ah ya.  And whose fault was that?


----------



## bily052 (10 Feb 2008)

Yup Yup Yup....  That was me LOL...  (someone bumped my arm)


----------



## dimsum (16 May 2008)

Just curious...now that it's a few months since the flying suit trial, what was the result?  Another suit coming to a wing near you in the near future?


----------



## Strike (16 May 2008)

These trials usually last almost year so that they can be trialed in all 4 seasons.  Then the final report, then a decision, and then a contractor once problems have been tweaked.  Depending on the priority thay was assigned to the trial, it may take some time.


----------



## dimsum (23 Aug 2008)

Talked to the trial-ee in 402 Sqn a few months ago, and while it does look nice (except for that velcro rank badge and placement), he did say it's thicker (and a lot warmer) than our flying suit now.  I suspect it'd be a little uncomfortable in the summer  :-X


----------



## Strike (23 Aug 2008)

All of our flightsuits are a little thicker when they are new.  I know that whenever I get one exchanged (which was pretty frequent when I was flying because of the exsessive fading) the new ones always seemed a little more robust.  A couple dozen washes should be able to sort that out.   ;D


----------



## Loachman (23 Aug 2008)

If anybody thinks that the trial ones are warm they should try the old wool/poly ones.

I hope that everybody involved with the trial complains about the stupid rank placement.

I do not like having to stare down at somebody's tits to see what rank they are.

Well, usually. Occasionally it's a good excuse.


----------



## aesop081 (23 Aug 2008)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> (except for that velcro rank badge and placement),



If you are talking about the rank on the front its a non-issue. The final production design will see them returned to the shoulders ( as we have them now).


----------



## Loachman (23 Aug 2008)

I would hope so.


----------



## SupersonicMax (23 Aug 2008)

With the little flap or just sewn on it like the fighter guys already do?

Max


----------



## aesop081 (23 Aug 2008)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> With the little flap or just sewn on it like the fighter guys already do?
> 
> Max



I was told they will be on the shoulders with velcro......


----------



## dimsum (23 Aug 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I was told they will be on the shoulders with velcro......



Hilarious practical jokes will ensue  ;D


----------



## aesop081 (23 Aug 2008)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Hilarious practical jokes will ensue  ;D



They already do with name tags, wings and such


----------



## Sf2 (23 Aug 2008)

all this banter about rank placement.....
when was the last time an AF guy cared about the rank he was talking to anyways???


----------



## SupersonicMax (23 Aug 2008)

Maybe we don't care about the rank but we do care about the look 

Max


----------



## Sf2 (24 Aug 2008)

that's even worse.....


----------



## Strike (24 Aug 2008)

SF2 said:
			
		

> that's even worse.....



Pot, this is Kettle, over!   ;D


----------



## Sf2 (24 Aug 2008)

pot no care about looks....pot care about not lighting on fire!


----------



## aesop081 (24 Aug 2008)

SF2 said:
			
		

> pot no care about looks....pot care about not lighting on fire!



I dont know about you but if i'm counting on my suit to prevent me from lighting on fire.....i have bigger issues.


----------



## Sf2 (24 Aug 2008)

that's my point....

I see my flight suit as fire protection, not a fashion statement.


----------



## SupersonicMax (24 Aug 2008)

SF2, in case you didn't get it, my comment was sarcastic and was in no way serious.


----------



## Sf2 (24 Aug 2008)

lol, yeah, I got it.....


----------



## hippie (2 Oct 2008)

Hopefully with this new gear somebody up high (enough) will realize the retardery of having subdued badges, and return to coloured ones just like every other damn air force in the WORLD.  Do the clothing neeners not realize we take the badges off if we need to anyways?  THUS the velcro?   With these subdued patches, you get every shade of green possible, depending on which establishment you order them from..   Looks very unprofessional.


----------



## aesop081 (2 Oct 2008)

Hippie said:
			
		

> Hopefully with this new gear somebody up high (enough) will realize the retardery of having subdued badges, and return to coloured ones just like every other damn air force in the WORLD.  Do the clothing neeners not realize we take the badges off if we need to anyways?  THUS the velcro?   With these subdued patches, you get every shade of green possible, depending on which establishment you order them from..   Looks very unprofessional.



You will find that alot of unit have already taken a somewhat wide liberty with the use of colour in badges  ;D


----------



## hippie (2 Oct 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> You will find that alot of unit have already taken a somewhat wide liberty with the use of colour in badges  ;D



aaaaaand the Pendulum is startin to swing back!  I have noticed as well...    Just a matter of time!   ;D


----------



## dimsum (2 Oct 2008)

Today I saw a Col from the Air Div sporting full-colour patches on his flying suit.  Maybe they have returned after all?


----------



## Sub_Guy (3 Oct 2008)

Flying suits that do not lose the velcro for the slip ons, and fray (velrco waist) after one wash would be nice.


----------

