# " Conduct After Capture/ Prisoner Suicide"- Split From Col. Williams



## SeanNewman (8 Apr 2010)

This is purely for curiosity's sake, but for those of you who deal with this regularly and have valid opinions what is the typical way that an inmate is successful in killing himself?

It seems that we always hear about failed suicides like Clayton Matchee and Col Williams, but what does work?

I have seen some of the articles make mention of things like running into a wall with their head down or climbing up and diving on the floor, but I have no idea if that would actually work the way it would in theory.

Seems very hit or miss, and even if they did break their neck it seems like it would suck even more because unless you could guarantee death...now not only are you in prison but you're paralyzed, too.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (8 Apr 2010)

Hanging is the oldie but goodie.

...and its usually the guy/girl you would never suspect. As Steel Badger said earlier, most failed attempts are very successful at what they wish to achieve, attention.


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## Retired AF Guy (8 Apr 2010)

From Tuesday's National Post:



> *Colonel's actions not sign of guilt, experts say*
> 
> Apparent Suicide Bid
> 
> ...



The reality is that the only person that knows why Williams tried to kill himself, is Williams.


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## George Wallace (8 Apr 2010)

He can not cope with being a "Detainee".


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## mariomike (9 Apr 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> This is purely for curiosity's sake, but for those of you who deal with this regularly and have valid opinions what is the typical way that an inmate is successful in killing himself?



Some lnks from the Canadian Medical Association Journal CMAJ.
"Causes of death among people in custody in Ontario, 1990–1999":
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC134290/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC134290/table/t1-17/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC134290/table/t2-17/


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## medicineman (9 Apr 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> This is purely for curiosity's sake, but for those of you who deal with this regularly and have valid opinions what is the typical way that an inmate is successful in killing himself?
> 
> It seems that we always hear about failed suicides like Clayton Matchee and Col Williams, but what does work?
> 
> ...



Some would consider this one of two things - suicidal ideation, or just plain boredom.  If the former, the mental health dudes in Gagetown are pretty good.  However, if the latter, I'd think that's it's not a wise idea for us to post online to give others some extra things in their tool box.   I'm sure some forensics or shock and awe dead person site would help you in your investigations though.

MM


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## SeanNewman (9 Apr 2010)

Mike,

Thank you for that.

Doc,

No need to get excited diagnosing me quite yet; my question was the result of a water cooler talk at work where a dozen or so of my peers were discussing the recent events and what we thought would work / not work.

It was more a matter of Army guys having morbid curiosity than anything else.

I guess you are right though that I could have phrased it a different way than "what works?".

Another thing that came out of our sewing circle was that I think in the back of a lot of people's minds the question exists "If I were ever taken prisoner and it had been years...".  Not something people are comfortable talking about, but it would be very diffucult for us to judge someone who had been tortured for years.

Not saying that's what has happened in the subject of this thread, but where the conversation went, which is why I asked the question.


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## George Wallace (9 Apr 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Another thing that came out of our sewing circle was that I think in the back of a lot of people's minds the question exists "If I were ever taken prisoner and it had been years...".  Not something people are comfortable talking about, but it would be very diffucult for us to judge someone who had been tortured for years.
> 
> Not saying that's what has happened in the subject of this thread, but where the conversation went, which is why I asked the question.



It appears from those statements that you don't have to do the same IBTS Trg the rest of us have to do.  Perhaps your questions would have been answered in the lectures on "Conduct After Capture".  These lectures cover the three (3) phases that a person will go through when they become a PW/Detainee/Hostage.  Perhaps you and your sewing circle should pull up those lectures and have a gander.


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## mariomike (9 Apr 2010)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Perhaps your questions would have been answered in the lectures on "Conduct After Capture".  These lectures cover the three (3) phases that a person will go through when they become a PW/Detainee/Hostage.



I think this must be it:
http://www.cfd-cdf.forces.gc.ca/sites/page-eng.asp?page=3485
http://www.cfd-cdf.forces.gc.ca/websites/Resources/dgfda/Pubs/CF%20Joint%20Doctrine%20Publications/CF%20Joint%20Doctrine%20-%20B-GJ-005-110%20FP-010%20-%20Code%20of%20Conduct%20After%20capture%20-%20EN%20(28%20Oct%2004).pdf


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## SeanNewman (9 Apr 2010)

George,

Do you really think that a 40 minute IBTS lecture can prepare you for what would happen to you if you were caught by an extremist group and tortured for years?

That's all well and good that we get taught "talk to live" and I'm sure that may work sometimes.  

However, it's quite bold of you to suggest that due to an IBTS lecture all of us qould come out gleaming on the other side.  From those same lectures, you will also remember that nobody can hold out indefintely even if they're planning on building a hotel.

We're not talking about old movies here where you're tied up and punched in the face and the captive holds out against the "bad cop".

I am a fan of what the IBTS teaches as some knowledge of what to expect is better than none, but to act like due to that lecture you're now perfectly prepared to handle getting raped and tortured for years without ever thinking about ending it all, you are a better man than most.


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## George Wallace (9 Apr 2010)

There is also a PowerPoint series of lectures, for those who don't want to read.   ;D

Here, from the book, are the Phases a person will go through, and you can see whether or not the Col can cope with his incarceration or not (Perhaps he has already progressed to Phase 3):



> *202. STRESS REACTIONS IN CAPTIVITY.*
> 1. The type, intensity and duration of reactions to captivity (in war or OOTW) vary dramatically across
> individuals. Individual differences are due to many factors including training. On average, personnel with
> little or no training in coping strategies for captivity experience several predictable reactions:
> ...


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## George Wallace (9 Apr 2010)

Petamocto 

Everyone is an individual, and as such will handle stress differently.  Some are stronger than others and more capable of handling stress.  This does not have any relationship to physical strength, but more with mental strength.  

What does the lectures and readings provide to the soldier/CF member?  Education.  These lectures will familiarize and educate us as to what we may experience in the case that we may fall into such a predicament, whether it be as a PW of a legitmate State, a Detainee of a legitimate State/Legal system, or a Hostage of an illegitimate faction/organization.  These lessons will prepare the CF member for what they may feel emotionally and/or physically; what kind of treatment they may experience; and what to expect or look forward to in the sense of escape, release, or rescue.  

Yes, these 40 minute lectures are very valuable, as is any such trg that many of us have experienced in the past such as "Escape and Evasion".  For a CF member not to be educated on these matters will only see members suffer more  emotionally and physically, perhaps fatally, at some point in the future.


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## SeanNewman (9 Apr 2010)

Clarification:  Now that this thread has been split, for the sake of context it should be mentioned that in the posts before this it was discussed what methods of suicide or attempted suicide prisoners commonly use...it was not just me popping out of nowhere (as it appears now that this thread is on its own) and saying "Hey, how can you kill yourself!?".

On the PM level, George and I have found common ground that the IBTS is a very good method to provide some basic tools to inform a person what they can expect if captured, it is impossible for any PowerPoint lecture to truly prepare you for what can happen.

It is granted that this was a very different tangent than what the original thread was about (Col Williams) and it makes sense that it was made into a different thread because of it.  Nobody is suggesting that any sort of wrong doing is happening to anyone in custody.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (9 Apr 2010)

Fair enough, title changed.
Bruce


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## George Wallace (9 Apr 2010)

As was mentioned in this Reply #, these are the symptoms that one will go through in the Three Phases after capture.   You can draw your own conclusions as to whether they apply to the Col or not (whether or not the Col's coping mechanisms are as strong as they should be); or whether he is a psychopath, perhaps carrying out a devious plan to deceive the courts.


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## SeanNewman (9 Apr 2010)

Not really sure if this topic can go any further, since a common ground has been established and in a way the original RFI was answered right after it was written (hanging is the most-common way).

The intent wasn't really to discuss the limits of how long a person could last (I am content knowing that eveyone has a limit when after that death becomes every COA).

Tools are great to know what  to expect and cope with and/or temporarily delay the inevitable, and that is where the biggest common ground has been identified.

If the IBTS tools can help someone get from Day 10 to Day 20 before snapping and they get resued on Day 18 then it works in that case.

My original RFI was more about a hypothetical Day 1,000 scenario (or 10,000, arbitrary number, obviously).

I guess my thesis is that it's very easy to sit in a lecture hall and say the honourable thing to do would be to use those tools and you should never contemplate suicide, but I think those tools exist more not to say that it will never happen but to stretch out the amount of time you can last before it does (which is quite useful).

My question was more of a follow up past that point, and as mentioned it has been answered.


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## medicineman (9 Apr 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Mike,
> 
> Thank you for that.
> 
> ...



Just checking  ;D.

MM


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## aesop081 (9 Apr 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> My original RFI was more about a hypothetical Day 1,000 scenario (or 10,000, arbitrary number, obviously).
> 
> I guess my thesis is that it's very easy to sit in a lecture hall and say the honourable thing to do would be to use those tools and you should never contemplate suicide, but I think those tools exist more not to say that it will never happen but to stretch out the amount of time you can last before it does (which is quite useful).



Thankfully there are course in the CF for things like that and they involved more that just a few PPT slides. Until you have been on one of those you are just wandering out of your lane. Speculate all you want however.....


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## SeanNewman (9 Apr 2010)

And what percent of the CF do you think has gone through R2I training?  Everyone?  Thought not.

I'm infantry and I've only seen 1% or so of people qualified in it.


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## aesop081 (9 Apr 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> I'm infantry and I've only seen 1% or so of people qualified in it.



And those are the folks more likely to need it. If it was any different, everyone would have to undergo B and C level CAC training.


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## SeanNewman (9 Apr 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> And those are the folks more likely to need it.



I have no idea what you mean by that.  In a company of 100 people, how can you say for certain that one guy will be the first guy captured?


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## aesop081 (9 Apr 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> I have no idea what you mean by that.  In a company of 100 people, how can you say for certain that one guy will be the first guy captured?



Urghh.......talking to you makes me want to punch kittens.

You win and i dont know anything.


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## SeanNewman (9 Apr 2010)

I honestly don't know what you're talking about, and I'm trying to learn.  I'm not discounting your opinion at all, I genuinely don't understand.

If you're talking about SOF types then I understand, but the course is offered to Reg Force infantry to and that's more what I was referring to.


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