# Valid Civilian Drivers License Required for Armoured Reconnaisance?



## AJSangster (8 Jan 2012)

I am interested in joining my local armoured reserve unit (VERY interested actually), and I have done allot of research into the Army, training, requirements and the specific role that a reservist armored unit plays. However, I am still unsure whether a civilian license is required (or would be a HUGE help) for joining an armoured unit. I have looked on the forces website and read the requirements for an Armoured Soldier and it does not say anything about needing a valid drivers license to drive a LAV or Coyote recce vehicle, but I could use some extra clarification from other members here, serving or not on if not having a drivers license will impede my chances of getting into the armoured reserves.


Help is much appreciated and I thank you for responses


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## PuckChaser (8 Jan 2012)

You're not going to get bonus points for having one, but it makes it easier to obtain 404s (military driver's licence). Why not go and get it anyway? Time licenced will help lower your insurance later on even if you don't drive right now.


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## AaronJohnTurner (9 Jan 2012)

A valid civilian driver's license or lack thereof has absolutely no bearing on your eligibility to get your 404/Military Driver's license (That is, assuming you don't have any serious legal barriers preventing you from getting a civvy license, say a DUI for example). Any driving experience you can get beforehand will aid you immensely, especially in the armour trade.

But get this, while you don't need a civvy license to get your military one, if you lose your civilian license they can take away your military one.  :nod:


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## Maxadia (9 Jan 2012)

I found that I had an edge over several of my coursemates when I trained for my 404s, due to the fact that I was forced by my parents (and rightly so) to earn my civilian license on a manual shift transmission.  While others were learning how to drive a vehicle (clutch mechanics, etc), I was focused on driving a vehicle properly.

Doesn't affect eligibility, but having your civilian license gives you valuable experience.


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## AJSangster (9 Jan 2012)

Thanks so much for the reply's guys, rely appreciate it.


It seems that the best thing to do is indeed to go out and get my license (no i dont have any legalities that would stop me from getting one). I shall do that tomorrow after a visit to the recruiting center. 

Thanks again guys!


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## REDinstaller (10 Jan 2012)

Trooper Paraflare said:
			
		

> But get this, while you don't need a civvy license to get your military one, if you lose your civilian license they can take away your military one.  :nod:



Actually, it was up to the Base Comd's when I received my 404s back in the 90s. If you check with Regt Tn they can tell you if the policy holds true anymore.


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## Jarnhamar (10 Jan 2012)

Trooper Paraflare said:
			
		

> A valid civilian driver's license or lack thereof has absolutely no bearing on your eligibility to get your 404/Military Driver's license (That is, assuming you don't have any serious legal barriers preventing you from getting a civvy license, say a DUI for example). Any driving experience you can get beforehand will aid you immensely, especially in the armour trade.
> 
> But get this, while you don't need a civvy license to get your military one, if you lose your civilian license they can take away your military one.  :nod:



I think you are incorrect.

You used to be able to have 404s without a civilian license but now you are required to have both.  Before getting your 404s you write the Ontario DIT?  Can't remember the name. But effectively it gives you a G2 learners license.  I'll check at work but I think we had issues where members had to have their full drivers license to receive their 404s.

Having a license won't be the deciding factor whether you get accepted in the reserves or not but it will be better for you in the long run. You'll need it to get 404s to drive the armored vehicles and support/transport vehicles.


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## PuckChaser (10 Jan 2012)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> You used to be able to have 404s without a civilian license but now you are required to have both.  Before getting your 404s you write the Ontario DIT?  Can't remember the name. But effectively it gives you a G2 learners license.



Its the Military DIT (Driver Information Test) and Ontario Supp, where you substitute Ontario for whatever province you're in. Its not a G2 you get either, its a Temp 404 which is a G1 (G2 you'd be able to drive without an instructor).

I had to have at least my G1 back in 2002, but I've heard some units are requiring at least a G2.


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## Jarnhamar (10 Jan 2012)

Thanks. I'm a driver examiner so I SHOULD know this


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## AaronJohnTurner (22 Jan 2012)

Some good points made above that I forgot to include in my reply. You need a full class 5 (here in Alberta at least) civilian driver's license, or to pass a supp. exam, in order to drive any of the blue/civvy pattern DND vehicles (A1B1 on the 404's)


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## Eye In The Sky (22 Jan 2012)

Its been a while (2001) since I instructed on any DP1 Armour courses, and things may have changed, I used to teach on them in Gagetown on a regular basis as well as on AVGP/LAV Dvr courses, and other SMP veh's.  IIRC on the QL3 courses:

- everyone had to write/pass the DIT and NB Supplemental to get their temps;
- everyone then had to accumulate the required time/kms IAW the CTP;
- everyone would then have a driving test with a qual'd Dvr Examiner; and
- if successful on the driver test, mbr's without civie dvr's license would get 404s, but with 'must drive under supervision' on them.


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## Fdtrucker (22 Jan 2012)

Yes you can get a Military Driver Licence without a PDL. If you do  have a restricted PDL or no PDL then you can not operate DND SMP or SC vehs or DND rentals. But if you have a Basic Driver Training or the Land Forces Command Driver Wheeled Course, these will allow someone with no pdl or a restricted (graduated) to operate A1 SC, SW. Carryall up to (pax and B1 Standard Commercial up to 1.5 ton), plus the whatever veh you did the course on. Before going onto a wheeled or tracked AFV you have to have a minimum of 1 B veh (example G-Wagon/LSVW/LUVW MiLCOTS. Included on those courses are your Defensive Driving Course, Safe Backing Course, Driver Information Test and Local Provincial Supplement test.

Someone who has no or restricted PDL and has completed one of the 2 course above is qualified to operate those vehs and definitely not under supervision. If that is happening then your Tpr Cell or MSE Safety does know the proper regulations.Everthing can be read in AL-158-005/AG-001 Chap 5


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## CountDC (24 Jan 2012)

Fdtrucker said:
			
		

> Someone who has no or restricted PDL and has completed one of the 2 course above is qualified to operate those vehs and definitely not under supervision. If that is happening then your Tpr Cell or MSE Safety does know the proper regulations.Everthing can be read in AL-158-005/AG-001 Chap 5



I assume you meant to say "does not know".  It is also possible the unit has set what they view as a higher standard.  Even back in the 80's a civilian drivers license was not technically required to obtain 404's but the policy in at least AMA(LFAA) was you did not get course loaded without one (I did course loading in 87 and instructed a Dvr Whl in 89/90).  This was because they didn't want to have to start from square one in teaching people how to drive and concentrate instead on training them to drive SMP's along with military SOP's as a driver.


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## Nfld Sapper (24 Jan 2012)

CountDC said:
			
		

> I assume you meant to say "does not know".  It is also possible the unit has set what they view as a higher standard.  Even back in the 80's a civilian drivers license was not technically required to obtain 404's but the policy in at least AMA(LFAA) was you did not get course loaded without one (I did course loading in 87 and instructed a Dvr Whl in 89/90).  This was because they didn't want to have to start from square one in teaching people how to drive and concentrate instead on training them to drive SMP's along with military SOP's as a driver.



I know the local Service Circus BN does this...no matter how much we point out what is written in PAM......


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## Fdtrucker (25 Jan 2012)

If i was to find this out on a SIV or SAV to any unit, those units would be corrected. I have found that both PRes and RegF units do not read the appropriate pubs enough- LFC Dvr Wheeled TP or the transport manual- and were corrected. As you know pubs are updated regularly and if someone does not know that they have been they keep doing it the same wrong way.

Sapper - if they are doing that what is Brigade G4 Tn staff doing about it. Last year before I was posted, I talked to the G4 Tn in the local Res Brigade and he got it out as quickly as the units were at work.


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