# Den Tandt: Make St. Patrick's rioters do military service



## 57Chevy (20 Mar 2012)

Shared with provisions of The Copyright Act
:facepalm:

Den Tandt: Make St. Patrick's rioters do military service
Michael Den Tandt, Postmedia News March 19, 2012 
 http://www.montrealgazette.com/sports/Tandt+Make+Patrick+rioters+military+service/6326166/story.html#ixzz1peDxsmKh

 "If a man is not a socialist at 20, he has no heart. If he remains a socialist at 30 he has no brain." — Georges Clemenceau

From the vantage point of middle age, little is more depressing than the prospect of becoming an angry, wizened old coot, slouched on his front porch, tossing little sticks at passing teenagers.

Which is why I am a little reluctant to wade into the London, Ont., riots debate, if indeed it can be called that. What's to debate? Getting mad at these designer-panted, Xbox-playing, skateboard-riding tweenagers (a tweenager being a young hobbit in his 20s, not fully mature, in Tolkien's eyes) is too easy. Fish in a barrel.

On the other hand, these little fish did trash a London city street, attack police and firefighters with bricks, boards and bottles, and burn a CTV news van, at a cost estimated at $100,000. The 1,000-strong mob could easily have killed someone. That it didn't is a testament to either brilliant police work or, more likely, luck.

Just as in the aftermath of the Vancouver Stanley Cup riots, it's reasonable to ask why. No doubt the soft-hearted will proffer the usual answers — alienation, disenfranchisement, lousy employment prospects and the like. "Poor dears, we've failed them so." And I think, actually, that we have failed them. But not in the way that some may think. We've failed them by giving them too much and asking too little in return.


Video games?

Authors such as Lt. Col. Dave Grossman contend that prolonged exposure to point-and-shoot 'killing' war games desensitizes players to violence and lowers the natural human inhibition against it.

Grossman offers this as a reason for inner-city mayhem in the United States. I'm not so sure that adds up. I know gamers, young and old, and it seems to me that kids who are decent and not inclined to violence do not become violent simply because they've played World of Warcraft or Call of Duty. (But do video games turn kids into couch potatoes and slugs? Absolutely.)

What about the decline of moral training and civility generally? Possibly that is a factor. Certainly we live in an indecorous time, in which basic manners and grammar both receive short shrift in the schools. Traditional ethical training, as embodied in most world religious systems, has been on the wane in Canadian homes for 30 years at least. On the other hand: Are we to believe that privileged suburban kids, raised by middle-class professional parents, were never taught right from wrong, or that rioting just for the damn fun of it is bad? That doesn't really add up either, it seems to me. Middle-class working parents, whatever their religious inclinations, tend to teach their kids the value of becoming a middle-class working parent. Rioting and possible jail time are not on the menu.

Here's what I think: we see manifested in the young rioters an extreme form of a malaise that affects all Canadians generally. That is, that we are pampered, to the point of making us spiritually poor. In young people, perhaps that translates into recklessness.

Canadians have no natural geopolitical enemies. We live in a country rich in resources and mostly free of earthquakes, floods, volcanoes and other natural disasters. Our country is so vast and naturally wealthy, generous and free, by global standards, that it seems a paradise to most people who don't live here. It really is extraordinary, when you travel just about anywhere, to come home. You are painfully aware, especially for the first few days back, of how extraordinarily well the vast majority of us live, compared to just about everyone else.

If Canadians generally are pampered, it stands to reason that our children are even more so — and not necessarily by deliberate parental or societal intent. The generation of kids now in their 20s has been given everything, because their parents love them and they want for nothing. But the lack of any hardship can itself become a hardship, morally and spiritually. What middle-class hooligans lack, perhaps, is a hard challenge and the adrenalin that flows from overcoming it. Hence, the false allure of the riot. How naive, smug, insular and dull must a person be to brag, on Facebook or Twitter, of the crime they've just committed? Only someone who lives entirely in a bubble of comfort could be capable of such stupidity.

Which brings us to my proposed reform and full circle perhaps to the grizzled elder shaking his fist on the front porch. If that is to be my fate, so be it.

I suggest giving those found guilty in the St. Paddy's Day London riot, anyone aged 17 or over, the choice of six strokes of the cane, a la Michael Fay, or two years' military service, a crew cut and "pull up your pants" to be imposed without delay. Or, they should be required to put in two years' community service someplace north, like Attawapiskat, where conditions are tough. Better yet, make a year of military or community service compulsory for all after high school. Let them see how the other half lives and let them put some sweat into helping others.

Honestly, it wouldn't do them a bit of harm. And it might do them a lot of good.


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## McG (20 Mar 2012)

57Chevy said:
			
		

> Honestly, it wouldn't do them a bit of harm. And it might do them a lot of good.


It might do _them_ a lot of good, but the military is not a reform school.  Members of the military must live up to the highest expectations of society (yes, some do not but they must be held to account).  The military exercises force - lethal force - on behalf of the government.  It cannot and must not have room for hooliganism.

If the military is used as a dumping ground for those who cannot control themselves, then the ethical fibre of the organization will be corroded - more & more, the military would succumb to unacceptable disciplinary shortcomings.

If we want to reform these rioters by putting them somewhere with a little hardship, then we should send them to an institution designed for that purpose of reform; we should send them to prison.


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## The Bread Guy (20 Mar 2012)

MCG said:
			
		

> It might do _them_ a lot of good, but the military is not a reform school.  Members of the military must live up to the highest expectations of society (yes, some do not but they must be held to account).  *The military exercises force - lethal force - on behalf of the government.*  It cannot and must not have room for hooliganism.


Agreed.  It's interesting how I've never heard anyone say, "let's toughen these punks up by putting them through mandatory _police_ training" and ask to have said "cops" protect their neighbourhood.


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## larry Strong (20 Mar 2012)

Mind you back in the day, a Judge would give a person in front of them the choice....jail or the army..........


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## The Bread Guy (20 Mar 2012)

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> Mind you back in the day, a Judge would give a person in front of them the choice....jail or the army..........


That's true, but you have to admit, we're talking a very different:
1)  young person; and
2)  army
than today's, no?


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## larry Strong (20 Mar 2012)

Yes, valid points that I had not considered.


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## Robert0288 (20 Mar 2012)

> Mind you back in the day, a Judge would give a person in front of them the choice....jail or the army..........


 which might be one of the reasons why the US has some of the issues it has today.



> let's toughen these punks up by putting them through mandatory police training


Police Academy movies 1-7... then again it is a comedy.


I wouldn't have an issue with the choice being hard labour vs jail.


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## Journeyman (20 Mar 2012)

The CF is not the place to correct the social ills Canadian youth, but not for the reasons listed already. 

Den Tandt, and likely a significant segment of Canadian population, would be disappointed to know that the fantasy of Gunnery-Sergeant R. Lee. Ermey, _a la_ Full Metal Jacket, doesn't exist. These people don't seem to realize that the CF _is part of society_ -- we're not isolated in cages marked "in case of war, break glass -- we're victim to the same sociologist-driven malaise that effects the rest of the country.

If one of these pampered kids, that 'society has failed' : shows up for Recruit training unable to do a push-up, rather than being yelled at to "get down and give me 20, *$&#*% maggot!," they'll be shuffled off to an ego-soothingly named "Warrior Platoon" with admonitions of "there, there muffin; you're still a good person. Hugs?"

No, if you want these kids to experience a society where "pampered," "entitlement," and "XBox" are more scarce within the vocabulary, have the NGOs take them to Africa and South Asia to work for six months.


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## dapaterson (20 Mar 2012)

On the other hand, note how no journalists ever say "We should make them work as journalists, as that field clearly will turn them into morally upstanding, hard-working and productive members of society."

At least journalists are honest about themselves.


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## Remius (20 Mar 2012)

Really I think this journalist was just making making a point.  He also mentioned sending them up north as well as having them caned.

I think he was trying to say that most youth haven't ever lived any real hardship and that service of any kind would do them some good.

He even says it himself that he's turned into the old man on the porch waving his fist.


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## Danjanou (20 Mar 2012)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> The CF is not the place to correct the social ills Canadian youth, but not for the reasons listed already.
> 
> Den Tandt, and likely a significant segment of Canadian population, would be disappointed to know that the fantasy of Gunnery-Sergeant R. Lee. Ermey, _a la_ Full Metal Jacket, doesn't exist. These people don't seem to realize that the CF _is part of society_ -- we're not isolated in cages marked "in case of war, break glass -- we're victim to the same sociologist-driven malaise that effects the rest of the country.
> 
> ...



 :goodpost:


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## Colin Parkinson (20 Mar 2012)

That being said, a common memory that is created by National Service does creating a binding thread in a diverse country. I noticed this quite a bit in Malaysia and Singapore. Mind you Malaysia has moved to a "lottery system" and also has a "Youth corp" as the army was not big enough to absorb all of the recruits.


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## Journeyman (20 Mar 2012)

Colin P said:
			
		

> That being said, a common memory that is created by National Service does creating a binding thread in a diverse country.


Yes, but that assumes a 'binding thread' is a political aim; our government has publicly proclaimed it's support for cultural diversity.


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## RangerRay (20 Mar 2012)

I always notice that it is those who have no prior military service that float this idea.


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## Colin Parkinson (20 Mar 2012)

In much of the world, compulsory service is the norm, voluntary service is actually I suspect the oddity.


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## Robert0288 (20 Mar 2012)

I don't particularly envy the Pl WO who would have to deal with the dicipline issues that would arise from having people who have no desire to be there


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## Remius (20 Mar 2012)

I'm not against some form of compulsary service.  Doesn't have to be military but some type of volunteer/community service would be fine.

In Ont you need 40 hours of volunteer service to graduate.  Frankly I would up it to 40 hours a year at least.  And it would have to be in some sort of civic oriented type of thing.

Heck, I'd be even more draconian and force everyone to get those hours if you want to vote at age 18.  When you don't earn something you tend to value it to a lesser degree.  Tell them they can't get something unless they accomplish certain benchmarks everyone else has and you'll see what kind of an effort gets put into it.


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## Colin Parkinson (20 Mar 2012)

Singapore prepares it's youth for the day they enter the forces, so they know what to expect (or should) If you go to Singapore check out the "Discovery Centre" Military Museum and "education centre" to teach youths about Singapore and their ideals.
http://www.sdc.com.sg/

Of course all systems have their issues http://kementah.blogspot.ca/2011/04/maid-in-singapore-singapore-armed.html   :nod:


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## Michael OLeary (20 Mar 2012)

Colin P said:
			
		

> In much of the world, compulsory service is the norm, voluntary service is actually I suspect the oddity.



According to Wikipedia less than half the countries in the world have conscription and of those that do conscription policies vary greatly in application.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_service


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## Colin Parkinson (21 Mar 2012)

It would seem a large number of countries moved from conscription to voluntary between 2000-2010


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## CountDC (21 Mar 2012)

When I read this article I thought what a great idea!  Send all of them our way, issue them shovels and send them to Toronto for the winter.  Not like we have a large waiting list to get in and we do have that enormous shortage of members even though we are all sitting around doing nothing but wait for the snow so we can dig Toronto out.  Of course we will have to hide the cost factor otherwise the 99% would be very upset that we are spending so much money on forcing these poor misunderstood people to become good citizens instead of handing it over to them for more tents and whatever else they want.

Geez, sometimes I wonder why we bother.


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## mariomike (21 Mar 2012)

Reading about the Occupy movement, various riots, protests and the employment situation, I wonder if something like the old American Civilian Conservation Corps C.C.C. of the 1930's will ever be re-considered? 
The U.S. Army was in charge of the camps, but there was no military training.


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## 57Chevy (21 Mar 2012)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Reading about the Occupy movement, various riots, protests and the employment situation, I wonder if something like the old American Civilian Conservation Corps C.C.C. of the 1930's will ever be re-considered?
> The U.S. Army was in charge of the camps, but there was no military training.



Nor should there be.

Back in the day, basic training was well known as "boot camp". 
Perhaps that terminology is still used today, but I have my doubts.
The "boot camps" described below have nothing to do with military service

If Canada decided to build such facilities, lots of prime real estate in the "Far North".

The following is shared with provisions of The Copyright Act  

Sentencing - Alternative Sentencing - Programs, Offenders, Community, and Prison 

http://www.libraryindex.com/pages/2553/Sentencing-ALTERNATIVE-SENTENCING.html

Forms of sentencing other than probation, prison, or a combination of the two (split sentences) also exist and are widely used in virtually every state. The most recent compilation of such approaches was published by the Bureau of Justice Statistics in 2000 in cooperation with the Conference of State Court Administrators (David B. Rottman, et al., State Court Organization 1998, Bureau of Justice Statistics, June 2000).

The BJS identified eleven forms of distinct alternative sentences, although some of these are functionally similar. With the exception of boot camps for young or adult offenders, they all provide offenders more freedom than incarceration but less freedom than ordinary probation. Alternative sentencing is, in part, a response to calls by penal reformers for, as suggested in Americans behind Bars, a "continuum of punishments with probation at one end, more severe community-based sanctions in the middle, and incarceration at the most restrictive end" (New York: Edna McConnell Clark Foundation, 1993) and in part a response to crowding in prisons. Thus, for instance, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, many states use halfway houses as a way of relieving crowding. Alternative sentencing is, of course, applied to offenders whose absence of prior criminal history or general characteristics indicate that they can be trusted not to abuse their greater freedom. Opponents, however, see prison sentencing as the only "real punishment" for criminals.

State departments of correction, the District of Columbia, and the Federal Bureau of Prisons offer a range of alternative sentencing options for criminal offenders. Although programs can vary among regions, those options include work release and weekend sentencing, shock incarceration (sometimes called boot camp), community service programs, day fines, day reporting centers, electronic monitoring and house arrest, residential community corrections, and diversionary treatment programs. There is also more variation in the availability of other types of alternative sentencing options, such as mediation and restitution.
---
---
---
Shock Incarceration (Boot Camps)

Shock incarceration is another name for reformatories or "boot camps" operated under military discipline for juveniles and adults. The name comes from William Whitelaw, British Home Secretary (1979–83), who called for a"short, sharp shock" that would end teenagers' criminal careers. Boot camps established in Great Britain attracted youths who liked the challenge, but the facilities did not lower the recidivism rate according to testimony presented to the British Parliament by corrections officials in February 2002 

According to Alexander W. Pisciotta in Benevolent Repression (New York: New York University Press, 1994), the prototype of such a facility in the United States was established at the Elmira Reformatory in New York as far back as 1876. The first modern, correctional boot camp was established in Georgia in 1983. Faced with unprecedented overcrowding in its prisons and jails, Georgia was looking for alternatives to incarceration for adult offenders. Oklahoma began its program in 1984 and, by the end of 1988, fifteen programs were operating in nine states. The majority of programs started in the 1990s. By 1998, thirty-three correctional agencies (state and federal) operated forty-nine camps for adult inmates. Sentences are usually short (three to five months) and intended to be rehabilitative by instilling self-respect and discipline in the offender.

Boot camps are intended to be both punitive in their rigid discipline and rehabilitative in the self-esteem they claim to confer upon successful completion of the program. Shock incarceration is intended to motivate prisoners, teach respect for oneself and others, and break destructive cycles of behavior. Virtually all work on the assumption that a military regimen is beneficial.

The major selling points for boot camps have been saving money and reducing prison crowding. However, the major factor contributing to reduced costs and less overcrowding is that the boot camp programs are shorter in duration than traditional sentences, and thus participants are released earlier. In addition, studies of boot camps have indicated that the facilities have not had a major effect on recidivism.

Many adult boot camps claim to be oriented toward developing programs aimed at offender rehabilitation. Typically, boot camp programs include physical training and regular drill-type exercise, housekeeping and maintenance of the facility, and often hard labor. Some programs include vocational, educational, or treatment programs. Drug and alcohol counseling, reality therapy, relaxation therapy, individual counseling, and recreation therapy are often incorporated into such programs. Because some offenders in boot camps have drug problems, many programs devote time to drug treatment each week. Programs closely regulate dress, talking, movement, eating, hygiene, etc. Obedience to rules reinforces submission to authority and forces the prisoners to handle a challenge that is both tedious and demanding.
---
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Other alternatives at link....
                      ______________________________________
*spacing


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## fraserdw (21 Mar 2012)

Don't we have enough pot smokers, rapists, kiddy porners and all round gangtras now without importing already proven such from the general population?  Let the civies deal with their social ills and we will deal with ours.  I am too old to babysit.


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## fraserdw (21 Mar 2012)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Singapore prepares it's youth for the day they enter the forces, so they know what to expect (or should) If you go to Singapore check out the "Discovery Centre" Military Museum and "education centre" to teach youths about Singapore and their ideals.
> http://www.sdc.com.sg/
> 
> Of course all systems have their issues http://kementah.blogspot.ca/2011/04/maid-in-singapore-singapore-armed.html   :nod:



Would not work here, Canadian ideals seem to change everytime a different political party gets in.


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## Retired AF Guy (21 Mar 2012)

I remember reading years ago that during WWII the Brits recruited a bunch of criminals into a military unit (a la The Dirty Dozen ) thinking that because the criminals had grown up in a harsh, ruthless environment they would make excellent soldiers/commandos. Needless to say, the experiment was a total failure. What they found was that the criminals main concern was personal survival/enrichment and that they had no attachment whatsoever to any kind of _*espirt de corp*_  or loyalty to their country/units/comrades, etc.   

Not exactly someone who you want to go into combat with.


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## daftandbarmy (23 Mar 2012)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> I remember reading years ago that during WWII the Brits recruited a bunch of criminals into a military unit (a la The Dirty Dozen ) thinking that because the criminals had grown up in a harsh, ruthless environment they would make excellent soldiers/commandos. Needless to say, the experiment was a total failure. What they found was that the criminals main concern was personal survival/enrichment and that they had no attachment whatsoever to any kind of _*espirt de corp*_  or loyalty to their country/units/comrades, etc.
> 
> Not exactly someone who you want to go into combat with.



That sounds like some of the units I served with. Sort of.

We had alot of minor criminals who turned into outstanding soldiers (and Officers). It's all about the leadership.


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## AJFitzpatrick (23 Mar 2012)

umphrey:	 You know what happens: nice young lady comes up to you. Obviously you want to create a good impression, you don't want to look a fool, do you? So she starts asking you some questions: " Mr. Woolley, are you worried about the number of young people without jobs?"
Bernard:	 Yes
Humphrey:	 "Are you worried about the rise in crime among teenagers?"
Bernard:	 Yes
Humphrey:	 "Do you think there is a lack of discipline in our Comprehensive schools?"
Bernard:	 Yes
Humphrey:	 "Do you think young people welcome some authority and leadership in their lives?"
Bernard:	 Yes
Humphrey:	 "Do you think they respond to a challenge?"
Bernard:	 Yes
Humphrey:	 "Would you be in favour of reintroducing National Service?"
Bernard:	 Oh...well, I suppose I might be.
Humphrey:	 "Yes or no?"
Bernard:	 Yes
Humphrey:	 Of course you would, Bernard. After all you told her you can't say no to that. So they don't mention the first five questions and they publish the last one.
Bernard:	 Is that really what they do?
Humphrey:	 Well, not the reputable ones no, but there aren't many of those. So alternatively the young lady can get the opposite result.
Bernard:	 How?
Humphrey:	 "Mr. Woolley, are you worried about the danger of war?"
Bernard:	 Yes
Humphrey:	 "Are you worried about the growth of armaments?"
Bernard:	 Yes
Humphrey:	 "Do you think there is a danger in giving young people guns and teaching them how to kill?"
Bernard:	 Yes
Humphrey:	 "Do you think it is wrong to force people to take up arms against their will?"
Bernard:	 Yes
Humphrey:	 "Would you oppose the reintroduction of National Service?"
Bernard:	 Yes
Humphrey:	 There you are, you see Bernard. The perfect balanced sample.


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## rmc_wannabe (23 Mar 2012)

Maybe I'm talking out of my ass here, but isn't it Society's responsibility to ensure these people are instilled with morals and values from day one?

As a father of 3, I hope to God that people don't see it as the Government's job to instil morals, teach self control,  and demand respect for others' person and property. If by 22 little Johnny has no problem lighting Mrs. X's station wagon on fire because he's had too much green ale, I think the boat was missed 20 year ago. Forcing him into a uniform doesn't change behaviours learned and enabled over a lifetime.

I often tell my wife that parents have a more crucial role in society than anyone else. They have to ensure that our little ones become contributing members of society and raise them in such a way that they don't become a scourge.

We reap the seeds of entitlement and selfishness in times like these, using a sharper knife doesn't change the crop.

Just my  :2c:


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## ModlrMike (23 Mar 2012)

rmc_wannabe said:
			
		

> Maybe I'm talking out of my *** here, but isn't it Society's responsibility to ensure these people are instilled with morals and values from day one?



No, it's the parent's responsibility. Society acts to reinforce the basic tenets of good behaviour already learned at home.


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## Colin Parkinson (19 Apr 2012)

Society(culture), community and parents have always played a combined role in raising the next generation. Been that way since the first tribe formed. What changes is the dominant role that each part plays. At this point our western culture makes it difficult for parents or community to deal with kids who don't comply to "soft cultural training"


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## The Bread Guy (19 Apr 2012)

AJFitzpatrick said:
			
		

> umphrey:	 You know what happens: nice young lady comes up to you. Obviously you want to create a good impression, you don't want to look a fool, do you? So she starts asking you some questions: " Mr. Woolley, are you worried about the number of young people without jobs?"
> Bernard:	 Yes
> Humphrey:	 "Are you worried about the rise in crime among teenagers?"
> Bernard:	 Yes
> ...



"Yes Minister" and "Yes, Prime Minister" rule!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Strike (19 Apr 2012)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Society(culture), community and parents have always played a combined role in raising the next generation. Been that way since the first tribe formed. What changes is the dominant role that each part plays. At this point our western culture *makes it difficult for parents * or community to deal with kids who don't comply to "soft cultural training"



Gonna have to disagree with that a tad.  Seems to be more of a shift of parents putting the responsibility of teaching morals and responsibility on the public school system and society.  Said system is not there for that and thus kids don't have the same sense of respect and responsibility when they grow up.  This gets passed on to their kids and so on and so forth resulting in the current crop of generation "ME!"


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## Niner (26 Jul 2012)

You nailed it STRIKER.  Sounds like you are speaking from experience....


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## Niner (26 Jul 2012)

Sorry, I should clarify that when I said speaking from experience, I meant dealing with / raising  kids   :facepalm:


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## Colin Parkinson (26 Jul 2012)

I know a lot of parents that are fearful (cautious) of bringing discipline to their kids in public for fear of being reported. More so in immigrant families than domestic ones. However I think there is a raising concern that the parents ablity to correct their kids is being hindered to much by PC from the "thought police" in the education services.


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## Eaglelord17 (27 Jul 2012)

One of the biggest issues with parents raising there kids is that the kids are intended to be raised with a sense of fear which makes them behave orders and follow the rules. The problem is that what exactally are they afraid of? If a kid gets sent to his room, so what he has all the technology they could want. If they break the law who cares, if your underaged they can't do much to you at all. If you get in a fight at school they (the teachers/principals) call the cops and/or suspend you immediately (even if you were only using self defence). The way kids are being punished has a direct relation to respect and discipline. Physical discipline would have a greater effects as then there would be a consequence for your actions. I'm not saying beat the kids but spanking is reasonable. In response to having criminals do military service it would be pointless. There are hard working people that want to be in the military and are unable at the moment as there is only so many positions. So why would we give those positions to someone who doesn't even deserve it?


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## Journeyman (27 Jul 2012)

Eaglelord17 said:
			
		

> .... but spanking is reasonable.


      :nod:  Ya baby!!


Oh damn, wrong website.  Nevermind.   :-[


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## PMedMoe (27 Jul 2012)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> :nod:  Ya baby!!
> 
> 
> Oh damn, wrong website.  Nevermind.   :-[



 :rofl:

Don't you hate it when you have more than one tab open?


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## daftandbarmy (27 Jul 2012)

Somebody going to get a hurt real bad....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVcePxjFujs


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