# Idea's to save the CF money/ make it more effective



## Q 1 (23 Jan 2005)

Looking for peoples idea's on saving the cf money or making it more effective by cutting waste,besides the obvious elimination of 95% of our general officers of course.


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## JBC (23 Jan 2005)

Enforce the 8-5 work day. There is ALWAYS something that can be done.


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## honestyrules (23 Jan 2005)

Yep!

Like jbc said, if you can force everybody to work 8-5, you'll get something. And, instead of buying crappy brit stuff, we could buy tested and effective american gear and vehicules, we could save some dough......


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## McG (23 Jan 2005)

JBC said:
			
		

> Enforce the 8-5 work day. There is ALWAYS something that can be done.


I like this idea.  I would get to sleep in and have time to visit the gym before supper.

 . . . oh, maybe you were suggesting that the CF was not already getting a full days work out of me.


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## pbi (23 Jan 2005)

This wouldnt make much difference to those who are at work by 0700 at the latest, and work as late as is necessary, or those soldiers who are in for company parade long before battalion PT parade. As long as I have been responsible to set other people's military hours, my approach has been " If we have to work to midnight, we work to midnight. If we can knock off at 1400, do it." In other words, focus on getting stuff done rather than on slavishly adhering to a punch clock, which tends to produce a punch clock mentality. 

I know very well that there is "always something to be done". In fact, if you permit it, "something" will overwhelm you completely and you will be in the office 0630-1800, take work home and come in on weekends. I know: I've done that in several different positions. The aim should be to focus energy on what needs to be done, manage the little alligators, and bin the ton of crap that doesn't deserve attention (but which the system spews endlessly)

Here are some suggestions on how to save REAL dollars, not pennies:

-allow the military to decide on its own what bases and infrastructure it can close and sell off, and let DND keep the money; 

-stop the grossly uneconomical practice of trying to build everything in Canada, as well as setting major contracts about with all sorts of political hoops that discourage most contractors. Allow the military to buy what it needs directly from the supplier it chooses, to make sure that we get kit that does the job,  not kit that is built in some MP's economically depressed riding that needs some pork;
and
-examine NDHQ very closely and decide what, if anything, can be cut further, devolved to the Commands, or  contracted out.

Cheers


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## JBC (23 Jan 2005)

Hmmm... I certainly was not implying slavery. The problem I find with such a choppy approach to running things i.e. and working until midnight or "knocking it off at 1400" is that people have kids to pick up a daycare, bills to pay, blah blah blah; a routine if you will. Yes, Canada before self, but while garrison if you learn to work within certain boundaries you learn how much you can get done given whatever task, and so you manage your time accordingly. I can appreciate flexibility if something urgent comes down the pipe but regardless, the last time I checked it was company commander and higher that can authorize time off, then again perhaps you are one.


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## pbi (23 Jan 2005)

> I can appreciate flexibility if something urgent comes down the pipe but regardless, the last time I checked it was company commander and higher that can authorize time off, then again perhaps you are one.



Most of the time (where I am normally working) we put in a day pretty close to what you describe. The "work to midnight" is rare, but working in evenings can happen as can working 24/7 if we have an emergency. What I was driving at was to be mission-focused on the one hand, while treating your people intelligently on the other. I agree fully with your observation on the levels where the authority exists: that is where I would hope to see people exercise that kind of judgement.

The real measure of the amount of time reqiured to be spent at work is the productivity of the people: is everything getting done as needed? Is work falling behind? Are timelines being  met? What is the quality of the work? To me those are the real measures, not how many hours are put in.

I will admit that this approach works best with a more mature, self-reliant crew: it might not be the best for a platoon of recruits or young soldiers in whom we are attempting to instill a sense of routine.

Cheers.


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## CBH99 (23 Jan 2005)

One idea that comes to mind, is to start thinking ahead in terms of upgrading our capital equipment.  An idea that would help us save REAL dollars would be to:  STOP UPGRADING CAPITAL EQUIPMENT, AND THEN MOTHBALLING THEM IMMEDIATELY AFTERWARDS.

How much money did we spend upgrading the Leopards, only to retire them shortly afterwards?

How much money did we waste upgrading the Cougars with all sorts of new goodies in terms of both structural and electronic upgrades, only to retire them immediately afterwards anyway?

Those are just two examples that come to mind right away, but I'm sure there are several other examples that can be brought to light from all three branches.  The point is:  If we start thinking ahead, and start thinking about what equipment we'll use and need in the future, we can save a significant amount of money by NOT upgrading equipment we just turn around and mothball anyway.

Another idea to save money would be to create some form of "mandatory service requirement" for the reserves.  I know the appeal of the reserves is that college students, or people with families and civilian jobs, can serve in the military part time with a great deal of freedom on their behalf.  I don't want to change this, because I believe this is certainly of great appeal and is one of the greatest factors that keeps recruitment plugging along.  My idea of a "mandatory service requirement" simply suggests that when someone joins the reserves, they have to stay in for a certain amount of time.  Thats it - no other change.  They can deploy if they want to, and serve in the reserves just as they are now, but the catch is they would have to serve for a certain period of time before being allowed to release themselves.

The reason I mention the above idea, is:  How much money do we waste on people joining the reserves, getting trained, and them leaving right away?  Or, even if they don't leave right away - they don't contribute what they get in return.  How much money do we waste paying, training, and equipping these individuals (A ton of cash when you add everything up) - only to have them decide to release themselves, and not contribute any sort of period of service to their unit?  Back when I was with the Calgary Highlanders, it used to drive me insane to see how much of our overall budget we'd waste on recruits who would take advantage of getting paid to learn all sorts of interesting things in the military, and then withdraw themselves almost immediately afterwards for their own personal reasons.  Just another idea.


 :bullet:


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## Teddy Ruxpin (23 Jan 2005)

Oh, I like this subject...   Some thoughts:

-  Stop treating the CF like another government department (the "DND/CF" that grates on me so much).

-  Kill "mandated programmes".   These are the government-wide programmes that the CF is required to follow and cover everything from TD, to how overseas pay is calculated, to mandatory human rights training, evaluations, pay compatibility with civilian staff, etc., etc., _ad nauseum_.

-  Stop using the procurement process as a regional development tool.   As PBI says, purchase off the shelf where possible and stop insisting on massive offsets when you do.  There's some great kit out there - not all of it made by GM (GD) Diesel.

-  Rebuild the CF's support structure to enable it to conduct the full range of support on overseas missions.   Contracting to SNC Lavelin and the like costs a fortune and, IMHO, detracts from operational effectiveness.

-  To stir the pot:   stop funding cadets and stop regarding CIC officers as "Reservists".   The era of the Cadet movement being an integral part of the nation's defence is long past.   Heritage Canada should pick this one up.  There's a couple of hundred million right there.

-  Again stirring the pot:   reduce the number of Res Bde HQs and convert the Area HQs into Divisional HQs, complete with deployable C2 facilities.   Each would have 1 Regular and 2 Reserve Bdes.  Seems to me this was recommended a few years ago, but not adopted...  As an adjunct - scrap CFJOG and rely on the new HQs to deploy NCEs, etc..

-  Every soldier - Regular and Reserve - should be deployable.   If you can't (or worse, won't) deploy, you should be on your way out.

-  Take a hard look at the National Procurement (NP) allocation and better prioritize purchases (NP buys things like spare parts, etc.).

-  Audit the various ADM empires and cut directorates that are not operationally required.

-  If it ain't being used, get rid of it!

CBH99 has a great point.   I worked with the Army Equipment Board for several years in the late 90s and never could figure out the procurement strategy, particularly as we were busy reroling Grizzlies, extending M113s, etc. - all without a strategic plan.  We must become much better at mid-term planning and I'm not entirely certain that the current Army "transformation" adequately fills the bill.

My 2.5 cents!


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## Edward Campbell (23 Jan 2005)

I agree, broadly, with Teddy Ruxpin.

While I agree that we must have a functioning logistics/support base I am not convinced that contracting out some (many?) support functions â â€œ including base support of forces deployed in operations â â€œ is overly expensive or wasteful.

(_Caveat lector_ â â€œ I was involved in some of the early contracting out/alternate service delivery proposals but *not* those involving base support services.   Part of the rationale for contracting out some logistic support services was that when we asked logistics to take a _fair share_ of the steady stream of force cuts, in the '80s especially, they (correctly, I think) elected to delete complete functions rather than weakening them all ... contracting out was, and remains, I think, a logical alternative.)

I agree that there is massive, _*politically*_ directed, waste in _mandated_ programmes and throughout the capital and O&M procurement projects.   This is, however, beyond the power or scope of the Minister and/or CDS.   A very switched on, very brave and very rich (no need to earn big bucks after retiring from the public service) DM *might* take this battle to the _centre_ and he _might_ make some headway against the entrenched forces of the Canadian industry welfare lobby and the feminist lobby and the French language lobby and, and, and ... 

I think Terry Ruxpin is being timid in suggesting we _â ?Audit the various ADM empires and cut directorates that are not operationally requiredâ ?_ â â€œ what we need to do is thoroughly reform our national headquarters structures.   See, e.g.      http://army.ca/forums/threads/25477/post-152079.html#msg152079 .

I agree with cutting some HQs but I'm not sure creating phantom divisions is a good use of resources, not in what's left of my lifetime, anyway.


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## generic (23 Jan 2005)

> STOP UPGRADING CAPITAL EQUIPMENT, AND THEN MOTHBALLING THEM IMMEDIATELY AFTERWARDS


.

Amen!



> stop the grossly uneconomical practice of trying to build everything in Canada, as well as setting major contracts about with all sorts of political hoops that discourage most contractors. Allow the military to buy what it needs directly from the supplier it chooses, to make sure that we get kit that does the job,  not kit that is built in some MP's economically depressed riding that needs some pork;



Can I get another Amen brother!

I would also add that getting rid of the 8 month,  2nd language training immediately after BOTC for Officers is a must. At least half of the those people who went through the same time as I did have civvie jobs now...

...and further to that we have GOT to speed up the training system, people are waiting far too long to get anywhere and they sit around with out being "qualified" to do squat-

...and further to that, we have to get out of the practise of letting people who just can't cut it hang around and around until they finally get relegated into being a bitter Log O.  No offence to the LogO's that want to be LogO's!!!


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## mainerjohnthomas (23 Jan 2005)

Real suggestions for saving the CF money. You have no idea how often I wanted to say this while still in uniform: STOP BUYING FROM QUEBEC.  Its not that they don't produce some good stuff; its just that they don't sell it to us.  The attitude when I was in seemed to be "if its not made in Quebec, you can't have it".  And I'm not just talking about the regular clothing and household gear, but the maintainace projects that go to Quebec even when the hardware to be maintained is based out of Halifax, Cold Lake, and Comox.  In a military budget bloated to excess we could afford a little pork barrelling; but thats south of the border, we have been on half rations as a fighting force since the sixties; no more gravy train.  Let the army direct its procurement contracts rather than the DND.  Let us spend our money on systems that make sense to us, not on procurements to satisfy some political payoff.  When we had a tour by one of the Chiefs of Staff, he stopped by to ask some of the line troops what we thought about replacing the field phones, and he got an earfull.  The system we had worked fine, but the field radios we had, my father can run as well as I can (there the same ones he deployed with in the Congo in '57).  Good systems getting replaced, while antiquated crap was coaxed into yet another year of life.  What qualifies a politician to decide what we need?   Let the military handle its own procurement; politicians can set the budget, but let us spend it.


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## Q 1 (23 Jan 2005)

I like what i read so far
 Some of my ideas:
                            - Move recruiting centers to malls, thats where all the people are and, they can         probably find the place
                            - Signing bonus for Combat arms.
                            - Mandated minimum terms of service for reservists, depending on their training costs
                            - Move this new maneuver training center to gagetown to co locate it with the combat arms training schools
                            - Close sigs school and other training units in kingston and move them to Borden with all the other training establishments.
                            - merge postal clerk trade with traffic tech trade
                            - merge supply tech trade with Mse op
                            - Sell off all civvy pattern staff vehicles and buses and lease their replacements
                            - Contract out all highway cruiser bus services and eliminate the function in the cf
                            - Take a close look at actual manning requirements for officers and trim class sizes at Ronald MacDonald College accordingly
                            - Eliminate most of the MP training done at Borden and have the Rcmp School in Regina take it over.
                            - Eliminate Cadet instructor List personnel and replace it with Reservist Loan nco's and officers
                            - Tell everyone who works at NDHQ to write a 1000 word essay telling the reader exactly and intricately what, if anything, they actually do and why they should continue to be paid by taxpayers, those who can't make a case for themselves should be let go or transfered to a recruiting center
                  thats all i can think of for now.


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## Tommy Atkins (23 Jan 2005)

Teddy Ruxpin wrote:

"To stir the pot:   stop funding cadets and stop regarding CIC officers as "Reservists".   The era of the Cadet movement being an integral part of the nation's defence is long past.   Heritage Canada should pick this one up.   There's a couple of hundred million right there."

As an ex-regular force member and somebody who worked in the CIC system for over 13 years I couldn't agree more with the above statement except for one part.   I wouldn't hand it over the Heritage Canada, that's still government $$.   The money the Cadet system wastes is terrible.

The Cadet program should be totally civilianised, much like the Navy League Cadet Program - 100% non DND or Government funding.   Their Officers operate under a "Warrant of Appointment", not a Queen's Commission.   I have seen too many CIC officers who are in it for the wrong reason, its a status thing, most couldn't get a commission in the PRes or Regular Force so they head for the CIC.   

For those who say civilianising the Cadet programs will not work, have a look at New Zealand and Australia who have done just that.   Even in the USA Army Cadets and the Young Marines are civilian organisations, self-funded and only "sponsored" by the DOD.

I have asked for official numbers of Cadets who leave Cadets and go into the PRes or Regular Force.   I have been told that no numbers have ever been kept, so we cannot even guage the success of one of the reasons for the cadet program: "stimulate an interest in the Canadian Forces".

At least the Brits are honest and will tell you that their cadet program is designed to turn out junior soldiers who will move on to the TA or Regs................and they keep the stats on the numbers who do.

Yeah, scrap the Cadets and give the $$ back to the people who really need it.

Cheers,
JT.


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## c_canuk (24 Jan 2005)

"Close sigs school and other training units in kingston and move them to Borden with all the other training establishments."

I liked all your ideas but that one (I am a siggy so maybe I'm biased    ) 

Does borden have room for another 3-5000 members in the summer? Kingston is getting so overcroweded they are moving people into the RMC Quarters in the summer

JSR is just down the road, youd have to relocate them too, not to mention all the equipment and facilities that would have to be moved and built... trust me not much money is being spend on kingston B6 is still condemened last time I roomed there   ;D You also have EW and RESEW in the local area... I think you'd find moving the school would be more than it's worth... though all non communications(BMT, PLQ) trg has been moved to Shilo...


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## a_majoor (25 Jan 2005)

LFRR Phase II implied the reduction of militia "regiments" to minor company sized sub units within a larger Brigade Battle Group. In 31 CBG we would have gone from 15 units to 5, and knocked off a large number of COs, RSM's Adjts and so on.

The only problem with this and any other proposal is *any savings will be retained by the government*, rather than flow down to recruiting new soldiers or buying new kit. This is similar to the mathematical contortions that a fomer MND used to explain giving $800 million in supplimentary funding and clawing back $200 million ment the CF was getting an extra Billion out of the government. While I admit descriptive statistics and calculus were weak subject, I really couldn't understand why the room didn't break into peals of laughter after this was announced.......


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## civvy3840 (25 Jan 2005)

I think that they should sell RMC in Kingston because the CF could make millions on it just relocate it and make it smaller. Besides from what I've seen the people going there are full of themselves ( not everyone though!!)


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## Bruce Monkhouse (25 Jan 2005)

...and do you have any facts to justify this or are we just rambling?


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## civvy3840 (25 Jan 2005)

Well for starters I was in the gym working out when a guy from RMC came over and asked me to judge his push-ups so I said ok I went over and he started doing them. His push-ups where very sloppy and I gave him a few suggestions on how to fix them and he went crazy saying his push-ups where perfect. So I said that's just my opinion and if he wants to he can ask someone else for help. After that he went as far as challenging me to a fight! But as I said I'm sure not all of them are like that.


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## canuck101 (25 Jan 2005)

How do you go from saying sell RMC will give us millions in savings. when someone asks you to justify your comments you go to an example of someone doing exercises wrong. I do not see the connection does anyone else.


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## Inch (25 Jan 2005)

civvy3840 said:
			
		

> Well for starters I was in the gym working out when a guy from RMC came over and asked me to judge his push-ups so I said ok I went over and he started doing them. His push-ups where very sloppy and I gave him a few suggestions on how to fix them and he went crazy saying his push-ups where perfect. So I said that's just my opinion and if he wants to he can ask someone else for help. After that he went as far as challenging me to a fight! But as I said I'm sure not all of them are like that.



Well if that isn't the best reason for closing a University with over 100 years of tradition, then I don't know what could be better.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (25 Jan 2005)

Alright, then its official, ....tomorrow........out they go!


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## Scoobie Newbie (25 Jan 2005)

If the CF were smart they should have made a fortune selling PMQ's (notably Wpg and Edmonton) as well as the property 2VP used to have in Wpg.  I know thats not how it works in gov't (I'm the CF didn't see a dime) but there is money to be made.


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## civvy3840 (25 Jan 2005)

Hey guys sorry I didn't mean to come off like an idiot but apparently I did. I was simply stating that the CF could get some money from selling it. I didn't say they are going to and I didn't mean to offend anyone by saying that so please just forget I even posted it.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (25 Jan 2005)

Fair enough,...lets get back on topic.


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## George Wallace (25 Jan 2005)

I don't think Kingston establishments would be sold off to save money.  The Base is one of the most innovated and economically managed in Canada.  It is the "Support Base" for RMC, Fort Frontenac's college, The PWOR, 1 CDHSR, the EW Sqn and Res EW Sqn and all the Comms Schools and a few other Lodger Units.  They probably provide support for other Reserve Units, such as the Brockville Rifles and Hasty P's.  Initially it may look "expendable", but in closer examination it may be a greater expense to close it.

GW


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## Armymedic (25 Jan 2005)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I don't think Kingston establishments would be sold off to save money.   The Base is one of the most innovated and economically managed in Canada.   It is the "Support Base" for RMC, Fort Frontenac's college, The PWOR, 1 CDHSR, the EW Sqn and Res EW Sqn and all the Comms Schools and a few other Lodger Units.   They probably provide support for other Reserve Units, such as the Brockville Rifles and Hasty P's.   Initially it may look "expendable", but in closer examination it may be a greater expense to close it.
> 
> GW



Not to mention its proximity to Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, CFB Borden, CFB Trenton and CFB Petawawa. Given its proximity to the 401, cadets can get just about anywhere in Eastern Canada.


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## George Wallace (25 Jan 2005)

Oh!  Did I mention that it was the only thing keeping 10 Mtn Div from invading Canada?   ;D

GW


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## Sailing Instructor (25 Jan 2005)

Now, I hope this _really_ stirs up the pot: instead of the CF slavishly adhering to the ideals of economics (i.e. absolute efficiency with regards to wealth, etc.) perhaps the CF (& it's correspondent gov't) ought to put nat'l defense on a level above other marketed commodities (it is, in fact a 'public good' in current economic doctrine) & pour lots of money into it.  

I'm not just saying this as a naval cadet who stands to benefit from lots of money being poured over me, I honestly think that a radical shift in values would certainly help the CF & Canada.  Of course I'm not advocating we pay Ptes $100 000 salaries or anything decadent, but in use the money for trg, R&D, etc. (I always thought the outlandish projects of the US' DARPA were a fantastic example of relatively-pure science.) Perhaps we could see soldiering as a virtue on its own without rationalising it by putting Canada's sovereignty on the market.


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