# The red baron: a national hero at last



## daftandbarmy (17 Mar 2008)

The red baron: a national hero at last 

Manfred von Richthofen was Germany's greatest First World War hero. But a biopic of the ace fighter pilot is causing unease in a country where, since the defeat of Nazism, film has avoided the glorification of war, reports Tony Paterson
Monday, 17 March 2008 


A British schoolboy would recognise it instantly: the plane that nowadays sits tucked away in the corner of a former Royal Air Force hangar on the western outskirts of Berlin is a life-sized replica of a fighter from the First World War. It has primitive solid rubber wheels, is painted a shocking shade of red and sports large black and white Iron crosses on its fuselage and triple-decked wings.


The model is a copy of the 1918 Fokker triplane piloted by Germany's legendary flying ace, Manfred von Richthofen, alias the Red Baron. It sits in one of Germany's few museums devoted to the painful subject of wartime aviation but still rates as one of the most famous aircraft in the world. Yet it is doubtful whether a German schoolboy would recognise it.

Ninety years after von Richthofen's death, Germany is about to change all that. A film about the heroic Prussian pilot who shot down a record 80 British, Canadian and Australian airmen during the First World War, will be shown at cinemas across the country next month. It will be the first time since the Nazi era that Germany will portray one of its own military figures in film as a national hero. 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/europe/the-red-baron-a-national-hero-at-last-796865.html?r=RSS


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## geo (17 Mar 2008)

Interesting.
Is it possible that Germany has at last shaken off the shame of it's WW2 defeat?
With the Bunderswerh's current involvment in Afghanistan limited by german public opinion, it is possible that the german gov't is using this and other (future?) events to change their people's views ... and thus permit a more active involvment in NATO / UN operations?


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## vonGarvin (17 Mar 2008)

I doubt that this has anything to do with shaking off its militaristic past.  This is just a movie.  The "Ritter" was perhaps forgotten post WW2, but I wouldn't make too much of this.  I mean, Heinz Guderian won't be lionised any time soon, nor Michael Wittman (or Hans Ulrich Rudel, for that matter).


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## geo (17 Mar 2008)

Don't get me wrong, I am certain that the German Chancelor has her work cut out if she is to ever contemplate obtaining support for the deployment of her troops into anyplace dangerous BUT, it's gotta start someplace.  The Ritter is a fairly "cleancut" individual that no one will take offence of.....

Ya gotta start someplace.


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## George Wallace (17 Mar 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> .........  The Ritter is a fairly "cleancut" individual that no one will take offence of.....
> 
> Ya gotta start someplace.



Times change.  Look what we have done with Louis Riel.  Next we will placate the Irish in Canada and lionize D'Arcy McGee.


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## geo (17 Mar 2008)

what did we do for Riel? other than give him a necktie party & his full nudity statue behind the Winnipeg legislature


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## vonGarvin (17 Mar 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> what did we do for Riel? other than give him a necktie party & his full nudity statue behind the Winnipeg legislature


Well, since this guy Riel murdered Catholic missionaries, I suppose that we SHOULD lionise D'Arcy McGee.  :
Oh, wasn't it recently Riel day in Manitoba?  What did they do to celebrate?  Murder some mounties?  Kill some more Catholics?  :


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## RTaylor (17 Mar 2008)

I think Germany, in it's shame over Hitler and the Nazi party and all that was done under that regime, has not only tried to hide and ignore the WW2 era but seems to me that they've tried to do it to all wars they've ever had. I work with a German fellow and my neighbors are straight from Germany, and they've told me that they literally recieve no schooling in their military past and alot of them think that going into the military in any role is shameful.

Trying to resurrect the past and have it accepted with such a huge stigmata is akin to trying to educate alot of African nations that raping a virgin baby won't cure them of Aids. Yes, that is a valid comparison for many Germans. They have a proud history (in many respects) and shouldn't let that dark time keep it hidden.


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## X-mo-1979 (17 Mar 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Interesting.
> Is it possible that Germany has at last shaken off the shame of it's WW2 defeat?
> With the Bunderswerh's current involvment in Afghanistan limited by german public opinion, it is possible that the german gov't is using this and other (future?) events to change their people's views ... and thus permit a more active involvment in NATO / UN operations?



I don't think it's shaking off the shame,more so becoming nationalistic again.And about time IMHO.The German people have nothing to be ashamed of,and should be proud of it's national hero's who engaged and killed the enemy.

Let's face it they aren't making Goering day or anything.

Bravo Deutchland.


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## geo (17 Mar 2008)

Remember, it's not just Germany... Japan is going thru it's own problems as it steps out and assumes it's responsibilities.


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## geo (17 Mar 2008)

Mortarman Rockpainter said:
			
		

> Well, since this guy Riel murdered Catholic missionaries, I suppose that we SHOULD lionise D'Arcy McGee.  :
> Oh, wasn't it recently Riel day in Manitoba?  What did they do to celebrate?  Murder some mounties?  Kill some more Catholics?  :



Well, "Riel day":  while some people may celebrate his birth.... others can celebrate his necktie party.....


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## JBG (17 Mar 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Interesting.
> Is it possible that Germany has at last shaken off the shame of it's WW2 defeat?
> With the Bunderswerh's current involvment in Afghanistan limited by german public opinion, it is possible that the german gov't is using this and other (future?) events to change their people's views ... and thus permit a more active involvment in NATO / UN operations?


It can shake off the shame of a defeat. Europe can never shake off the shame of its treatment of the Jewish people. It wasn't only, or even primarily Germany.


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## time expired (18 Mar 2008)

Germans seem to have a very strange appreciation of their
history.Consider for instance Bismarck,whenever his name
comes up in the media he is portrayed as a somewhat un-
savory character,I submit that in any other country in the
world he would be celebrated as the Father of his Country,
which he certainly was.Instead, people such as Rosa
Luxembourg,a communist agitator whose aim was to
establish a German soviet,are celebrated as the heroes
of a modern progressive Germany.
                             Regards


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## vonGarvin (18 Mar 2008)

time expired said:
			
		

> Germans seem to have a very strange appreciation of their
> history.Consider for instance Bismarck,whenever his name
> comes up in the media he is portrayed as a somewhat un-
> savory character,I submit that in any other country in the
> ...


Well said.  Bismarck kept the peace in Central Europe for many years in a turbulent Europe.
Rosa Luxembourg was a hack.  Pure and simple.


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## geo (18 Mar 2008)

People have forgotten Bismark.  In time they will rediscover nation builders.
The same way Garibaldi unified the Italian states, Bismark unified the germanic states.  The European union should make an effort to recognise the contribution of these individuals.


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## George Wallace (18 Mar 2008)

I think you will find that Bismark is fairly well remembered in Germany.  Lots of Statues of him everywhere, Monuments in Berlin, and "Bismark Towers" crossing the length and breadth of the country.


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## time expired (18 Mar 2008)

G.W.,very true however all erected prior to WW1,the point is how
he seen today in modern Germany.
                                      Regards


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## JBG (19 Mar 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I think you will find that Bismark is fairly well remembered in Germany.  Lots of Statues of him everywhere, Monuments in Berlin, and "Bismark Towers" crossing the length and breadth of the country.


What English-speaking child of the 1960's doesn't know the Royal Guardsman song "Snoopy and the Red Baron"?


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## Panzer Grenadier (19 Mar 2008)

Germany (and Japan) I believe will have a reawakening of pride in self, of country and service, probably within the next 10 years. Its simply my own opinion and how I perceive matters to unfold in the next decade.  I could be fully wrong, right or just 50%; I do believe that Germany (and Japan) can return to having pride in who they are as German (and Japanese).


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## geo (19 Mar 2008)

Panzer...
The Germans have done a "mea culpa" for the NAZI war crimes.... the Japanese have setadfastly refused.
They are both pert much proud of themselves... they just have to gain trust in themselves when the leave their own country to "visit" that big world.


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## Blackadder1916 (19 Mar 2008)

Panzer Grenadier said:
			
		

> Germany (and Japan) I believe will have a reawakening of pride in self, of country and service, probably within the next 10 years. Its simply my own opinion and how I perceive matters to unfold in the next decade.  I could be fully wrong, right or just 50%; I do believe that Germany (and Japan) can return to having pride in who they are as German (and Japanese).



I have to surmise that you haven't met many Germans or Japanese if you think that the average citizen of either nation does not currently have pride in their country or a feeling of superiority over, well..., just about everyone else.  Humility is not what comes to mind when I think of Germans (or Japanese); "strong but quiet arrogance" would be a better description.  Don't confuse the non-celebration of their militaristic pasts with a lack of pride in what they are now or have been.  Both nations were able to successfully rise from destruction (of their own making). They both feel they deserve an important place in the world, however they learned a painful lesson about how to achieve that place.  Post-war, they needed to adopt (and also had imposed on them) a mindset that military action had to be the last resort and used only for defense of (and on) their home territory.  It is this lingering mindset that is a major factor in their attitude to military service.


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## geo (19 Mar 2008)

+1 Black adder.  The lesson they learnt is "non-intervention"

Or at least "not too much meddling"


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## JBG (20 Mar 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Panzer...
> The Germans have done a "mea culpa" for the NAZI war crimes.... the Japanese have setadfastly refused.
> They are both pert much proud of themselves... they just have to gain trust in themselves when the leave their own country to "visit" that big world.


The story about Chancellor Merkel's visit, excerpted below, shows how much progress Germany has made in this regard. Austria, Hitler's birthplace, has made no such progress nor, as pointed out above, Japan. See *story below (link)*:



			
				Economist said:
			
		

> Germany and Israel
> 
> Friends in high places
> Mar 19th 2008 | BERLIN
> ...


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## Panzer Grenadier (20 Mar 2008)

Thanks for clearing that for me lads.


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## time expired (20 Mar 2008)

I hope you didn't miss the somewhat cynical tone of part
of this report," its almost official;Germany is Israel's`second
best friend".I live in Germany and I can assure you the Germans
are not Israel's best friends.Most Germans still resent Jews for
constantly reminding them and the rest of the World  of their less
than savoury past.While anti semetism is outlawed in this country
this dislike manifests itself in constant criticism of Israel and support
for the Palestinians this is particularly apparent at the left of the
political spectrum SPD,Greens and the newly emerging Communist
party,Die Linke.So you see this is just the maneavering of another
politician trying to move Germany onto the international scene.
                               Regards


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## Yrys (1 Apr 2008)

I've mamade a separate thread about the new movie "The Red Baron" here :


Army.ca Forums > The Parade Square > Military History

German war film challenges taboo


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## daftandbarmy (21 Apr 2008)

Shot down today, 90 years ago - by some upstart coloinials no less. Harrumph...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manfred_von_Richthofen


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## Kilo_302 (29 May 2008)

> Heinz Guderian won't be lionised any time soon, nor Michael Wittman (or Hans Ulrich Rudel, for that matter).



I would hope Guderian is never praised. There is growing evidence that he and other members of the Wehrnacht often viewed as mere professional soldiers actively supported many of the Nazi racial policies as well as the widespread policy of war crimes on the Eastern front. This subject is dealt with at great length in Omar Bartov's "Hitler's Army : Soldiers, Nazis, and War in the Third Reich."


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## TCBF (29 May 2008)

JBG said:
			
		

> It can shake off the shame of a defeat. Europe can never shake off the shame of its treatment of the Jewish people. It wasn't only, or even primarily Germany.



- "... or even primarily Germany."  ?!?!   I would like to hear your theory on that.  Granted, they used the local police in France, Italy, Holland, etc. to round up the victims, but it was Germany who ran the camps that killed 13,000,000 people, 6,000,000 of which were Jewish (the other 7,000,000 being Homosexuals, Gypsies, Jehovas Wittnes, Poles, POWs, etc.).


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## geo (29 May 2008)

TCBF... there is enough info on the "pogroms" that ran through Poland & Russia throughout the 1800s to validate JBGs statement.

Having some Jews was nice but having largescale ghetos in their cities wasn't.
Whenever the gov't in power ran into trouble or got behind in their payments to the money lenders (Jews) a little pogrom to write off debts certainly had it's attractive side.


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## TCBF (30 May 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> TCBF... there is enough info on the "pogroms" that ran through Poland & Russia throughout the 1800s to validate JBGs statement. ...
> .



- All of the pogroms together don't come anywhere close to the mass execution of 6,000,000 Jews during WW2.


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## Shec (30 May 2008)

TCBF said:
			
		

> - All of the pogroms together don't come anywhere close to the mass execution of 6,000,000 Jews during WW2.



TCBF's point is well made.   While the pogroms of  Europe (ie. Russia, Poland, Romania, Hungary  etc., etc.) had the aim of "expulsion" or conversion (Spanish Inqusition) the Nazi's had the aim of "extermination" (full stop).


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## daftandbarmy (30 May 2008)

And this discussion is related to the Red Baron how?


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## Kat Stevens (30 May 2008)

I believe he ate lox and bagels once.


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## TCBF (30 May 2008)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> And this discussion is related to the Red Baron how?



- Sidebar provoked by Reply 11, Page 1.


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## stegner (31 May 2008)

The Nazi's committed the Holocaust with the implicit and explicit support of many of the locals of the countries they conquered.   The Vichy Government in France Marshal Philippe Pétain is but one example of a European country lending its 'assistance' to the Final Solution.  While it is easier to blame everything on the Nazi's-many countries in Europe during this period had blood on their hands also.   These include Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Austria, Norway, Romania, Sweden, Syria, Ukraine, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Greece, Hungary, Hungary, Serbia and Switzerland all of whom provided varying degrees of support of the Holocaust along with the actual perpetuation.  Some of these countries had only very minimal Nazi assistance.  Though, this has been conveniently forgotten by many of them.


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## MedTechStudent (31 May 2008)

Ok dokie lets back er up on the Nazi discussion.  Bottom line is that this thread is about a pilot.  I extremely talented fighter pilot who achieved great things while doing one of the most dangerous jobs ever.  His ties to the Nazi ideals are irrelevant if even existent.  Not every German soldier or airman new the Nazi master plan, or ever took direct part in it.  They were ordered to fight for their country so they did.  In my opinion, this man did not turn the gas on at any concentration camps, he did not loot or pillage any Jews, he was a fighter pilot and deserves recognition from his country. 

ps.  His career ran its course _before_ the Nazis came to power in 1933, and almost two decades _before_ the holocaust ended and its extent revealed , so I don't see what The Red Baron has to do with it.   ???


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## TCBF (31 May 2008)

- ... and the last thing we need is a new thread titled "Had He Lived, Would The Red Baron Have Joined The NSDAP?"

 8)


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## 54/102 CEF (31 May 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I think you will find that Bismark is fairly well remembered in Germany.  Lots of Statues of him everywhere, Monuments in Berlin, and "Bismark Towers" crossing the length and breadth of the country.



Bismark Towers Link - Thanks to George for alert to this! http://flickr.com/groups/bismarck/pool/show/with/944034660/


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## JBG (31 May 2008)

TCBF said:
			
		

> - All of the pogroms together don't come anywhere close to the mass execution of 6,000,000 Jews during WW2.


Quite true, but Poland had the highest loss of Jews both in numbers and % of its Jewish population butchered. The pogroms dehumanized the Jews and created fertile ground for the Nazis when they occupied to gain the cooperation of the local population so needed to round up and kill the Jews.


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## MedTechStudent (31 May 2008)

Not *relevant* to the thread!   

We all know the holocaust was terrible, most of us know why and how hitler did it.  Not just the Jews but to people of color, and the disabled.  Not really the right thread to be stating our universal, obvious distain for it.  So lets steer this thread back on track.   ;D

Although the RAF credited pilot Auther Brown with the killing of the Red Baron, forensics determine that the bullet that killed him came from an upward angle.  His plane crash landed and his body was discovered by Australian Imperial forces.  Later it would also be believed that an Australian AA gunner actually fired the bullet that killed Manfred von Richthofen.  Cool little mystery they've got on their hands eh?   

_There ya go Wes, the Aussies shot down one of Germany's greatest war heros, good on ya!_


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## lone bugler (31 May 2008)

I don't see anything wrong with this... I mean the red baron wasn't a Nazi, not only that he should be remembered as a hero and for his skills in the air. Infact WWI was strictly a victor's justice. Even in WWII the U.S. government covered up the twisted Japanese human experiments in manchiria so they can get the results. If you win a war you can pretty much do whatever you want. because the Germans lost WWI ofcourse their gonna be labeled as bad guys and not heros, terrible thing really cause no one can deny the red baron did served his country honorably. sure he shot down some Canadian pilots and British pilots but thats like saying Billy Bishop shouldn't be a hero cause he shot down Germans.


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## my72jeep (31 May 2008)

On the topic of the Red Boron, Some 20 years ago on November 11 I was watching the wreath laying in Bracebridge Ont. when an older Man asked me what rank I was. I told him I was a lieutenant. He then told me he was a Capt. in the German Air Force, so at that I saluted him. With that he started to tell me about being shot down over the Russian Front and his escape. then about when Billy Bishop shot him down, his time in a POW camp in muskoka then he showed me some photo's in his wallet one of Herman giving him his second or third iron cross a photo of the Hindenburg ,one of him with Billy Bishop then I saw a pic that made me look twice it was a pic with a tri plane in the back ground and two German pilots in front one was the man I was talking to, the other was a very Prussian looking man that I have seen in many books. I asked is that who I think it is Von Richtoffin, and his answer was " Oh yes that's Manny he taught me how to fly" Now I was hooked.This guy was part of the flying circus. we talked for the rest of the Ceremony then went back to the Legion for a drink. Now her is where the story gets weird. This WW1 WW2 Vet was refused service at the legion on Nov 11 because he was on the wrong side during those two wars. Here we have a 90 year old German  WW1 vet and our legion was being pissy over who's side he was on. now you say the Germans have issues.


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## JBG (1 Jun 2008)

MedTechStudent said:
			
		

> Although the RAF credited pilot Auther Brown with the killing of the Red Baron, forensics determine that the bullet that killed him came from an upward angle.  His plane crash landed and his body was discovered by Australian Imperial forces.  Later it would also be believed that an Australian AA gunner actually fired the bullet that killed Manfred von Richthofen.  Cool little mystery they've got on their hands eh?
> 
> _There ya go Wes, the Aussies shot down one of Germany's greatest war heros, good on ya!_


From the song that was popular back in the 1960's by the Royal Guardsmen, I thought Snoopy did it.


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