# RCN Weapons System (historical, current, planned)



## Cloud Cover (16 Aug 2020)

We do not have a thread of RCN weapons systems that is recent, so thought I would start a new one.

I saw today the attached images in a twitter thread from HMCS Winnipeg. There is a video of Hammerhead UTV taking a pounding from 3 guns at close range  (Bofors, Phalanx and the new NWRS).

So it sounds like Winnipeg is fitted with either 2 or 4 NRWS which I gather can be operated remotely from the OPs room or at the mount itself. The barrel looks like it had some refurb work done as well. 
Also, it sounds like the installation points are on bridge wings and quarterdeck, Port and Starboard.

I’ve tried to post the twitter link, but this web server blocks creation of the page with the link.  Maybe some else can try? 

Edit: I think this will work- https://twitter.com/HMCSWinnipeg/status/1295048978073939968?s=20


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## Colin Parkinson (16 Aug 2020)

Interesting just how old the 3"50 were. The initial gun was early 1900 with a dual purpose gun being mounted in 1915. the Mk22 became the premier AA gun of the USN during late WWII supplementing and then replacing the 40mm Bofors. We used the Mk 33 and I don't know when the last one went out of service. But it is likley the longest lived naval gun design in the 20th century.


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## NavyShooter (16 Aug 2020)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUnA7OOOClU

A little video of a 57mm firing.


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## SeaKingTacco (17 Aug 2020)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Interesting just how old the 3"50 were. The initial gun was early 1900 with a dual purpose gun being mounted in 1915. the Mk22 became the premier AA gun of the USN during late WWII supplementing and then replacing the 40mm Bofors. We used the Mk 33 and I don't know when the last one went out of service. But it is likley the longest lived naval gun design in the 20th century.



I loved watching the 3’50” shoot. I remember one full rate shoot during Gulf War 1 against a home built surface target. It completely shredded the target. A well oiled gun crew (with ammo numbers) was a thing of beauty.


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## Dale Denton (17 Aug 2020)

Speaking of which, I know the RN uses M134s where we use C6s or HMG. Why not use them?

The cost of capital ships is high enough to dedicate a little $ for something that'll do well for something close-up.


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## NavyShooter (17 Aug 2020)

There's a video in one of the facebook groups I'm a member of (HMCS  GATINEAU) that shows a 3"50 firing with the guns crew passing shells up and loading - very smooth.  It's an amazing piece of personnel integration.


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## EnchantedEng (17 Aug 2020)

According to the Wikipedia article below (Please don't roll your eyes), the prior to entering Canadian Service, the Victoria Class submarines were "capable of using UGM-84 Sub-Harpoon missiles". I have 2 questions regarding this information. 

1. Is that confirmed information?
2. Why was that capability scrapped?
(I think it was the change from Mk 24 torpedoes to MK 48 that required the removal of Harpoon missile launching capability, I would be glad to have more concrete information, if available.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upholder/Victoria-class_submarine


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## NavyShooter (17 Aug 2020)

They were "Canadianized" when we bought them.  They had been equipped for British Torps (Spearfish?) plus the UGM-84 Harpoon.  When the brit fire control system was removed and the system for our existing stocks of Mk.48 ADCAPs were installed, the ability to launch the Harpoon went with it.


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## SeaKingTacco (17 Aug 2020)

Plus, we have never owned sub-harpoon, so would have had to acquire that.

It is not a great capability for a SSK. It tends to mark their datum really, really well.


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## Blake Castelein (18 Aug 2020)

CloudCover said:
			
		

> We do not have a thread of RCN weapons systems that is recent, so thought I would start a new one.
> 
> I saw today the attached images in a twitter thread from HMCS Winnipeg. There is a video of Hammerhead UTV taking a pounding from 3 guns at close range  (Bofors, Phalanx and the new NWRS).
> 
> ...


There are x4 NRWS in the GP 1, 2, 5, and 6 positions. Its operated down in laundry flats, there are screens on the bridge and in Ops to view what they're looking at though. It's a huge improvement over manually firing the .50's forsure.

Sent from my SM-G975W using Tapatalk


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## Colin Parkinson (18 Aug 2020)

Make me king for the day and I would do the following:

Have the AOP's fitted with the 57mm Mk 3 and the existing 25mm moved to another location, along with an improved FCS

Prep the Astreix to receive either the 25mm and/or .50cal NRWS and purchase the systems. Install as required.

Fit the same 25mm NRWS to the Kingston class and perhaps one of the .50cal NRWS. Ensure there is a FCS to support it

Modify the Orcas to accept the .50cal NRWS, purchase the systems and basic FCS to support it. Equip a couple of them mainly to allow training and as operational needs arise.

Purchase a number of small systems like the French Mistral on a Simbad mount and prep areas on the AOPs and Astreix for them. Conduct trials and training to see how such systems can be integrated into the current ship defenses.

The above gives you a lot of commonality throughout the fleet, so a reservist training on a Orca with the NRWS, can now go to the AOPs or Kingstons and be familiar with the systems. Same goes for people moving to and from the Halifax's and AOP's.


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## Cloud Cover (18 Aug 2020)

LoboCanada said:
			
		

> Speaking of which, I know the RN uses M134s where we use C6s or HMG. Why not use them?
> 
> The cost of capital ships is high enough to dedicate a little $ for something that'll do well for something close-up.


View from HMS Northumberland (MV Asterix ahead), and in second shot from HMS Medway (very rough comparison mission to MCDV)  showing M 134 Minigun.


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## Cloud Cover (18 Aug 2020)

This is a DSM 30MK II ( rumoured to be selected for CSC mounted on sponsons or small inset deck astride both sides of the hangar). Attached to the mount is a tested and proven 5 pack Martlett Missile. The system was installed and tested in 2019 by the RN on-board HMS Sutherland, and it works very effectively out to 6KM.  The missile is the Thales LMM. 

This would be a very useful combination for the CSC and to be honest, if there was room and if they cane integrated to existing, and very welcome addition to the CPF even in a removable “ bolt on” configuration for certain missions or deployments. It might even be a more appropriate bolt-on system for the MCDV when they are on Africa or Caribbean stations.  

Cons: 
1. it’s new missile system in a role for which the RCN has a need but no doctrine and certainly no experience.  
2. It’s yet another type of gun ammunition - requires storage and handling training and space.
3. It’s yet another missile system - requires storage, handling and space and specialized trading to maintain and use;
4. Integration of a low cost but highly lethal system requires training considerations for CO, Ops room and others in the kill chain.
5. Little is known about cold weather testing of the system- may not be suitable for Arctic or colder climate use.

Pro’s:

1. Ships defensive armament substantially increased
2. Weapons bring harder punch.
3. CIWS focussed on AD and not hosing down raider craft
4. Bolt on means only a few systems need be acquired and installed as needed
5. May assist in littoral  ( not sure due to limited range of 6KM)
6. System can be uplifted to CSC.
7. Multi platform use and could even be truck mounted if power supply available. (RCN or RCA asset?)

There are other similar systems available but as stated above I believe the DSM 30 is identified as a potential CSC weapon.


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## Colin Parkinson (18 Aug 2020)

That would certainly up the potency of the Kingstons and AOP's. Instead of constantly returning money to TB, have a Weapons research and development fund to purchase/lease these systems for trials.


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## Swampbuggy (20 Aug 2020)

There's so much more flexibility with the 30mm. Higher firing rate, ability to store more ammo in the mount, significant upgrade in hitting power (the USN did a brief film on the difference in damage dealt between a 25 and 30mm weapons system, can't find it at the moment) and perhaps most importantly, there is an increase in max elevation to 75 degrees. Much better coverage for air threats, including drones.


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## Underway (26 Aug 2020)

LoboCanada said:
			
		

> Speaking of which, I know the RN uses M134s where we use C6s or HMG. Why not use them?
> 
> The cost of capital ships is high enough to dedicate a little $ for something that'll do well for something close-up.



UK ships usually are only fitted with 2xM134's, amidships and have 4x 50cal mounts on the quarters and bows. The RCN has 4x 50 cal mounts on the quarters and bows.  With the increased accuracy and stabilization of the NRWS there is literally no need for M134's.  M134's are to make up for the inaccuracy of manually aiming at a fast moving boat with the expediency of rate of fire increases.  NRWS have no problems hitting such targets, thus increasing the PKill by a huge margin. Therefore no need to have any gatlings.


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## Colin Parkinson (26 Aug 2020)

Going back to historical

Found some of the parts for our 12pdr outside the cadet hall, I believe it was off one of the escorts making up the Bedwell bay ghost fleet

Restoring and preserving the breech, then I start on the elevation gears. Plan is to have some fake plates made up with playground wheels for kids to turn, a simplified kid proof aiming system and a fake breech. The real stuff will be put on for special occasions and then removed.

dang won't let me attach pictures


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## FSTO (30 Aug 2020)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Going back to historical
> 
> Found some of the parts for our 12pdr outside the cadet hall, I believe it was off one of the escorts making up the Bedwell bay ghost fleet
> 
> ...



On the drill deck in HMCS UNICORN (NRD Saskatoon) there is a WWII High Angle 4 inch deck gun (I think it came from HMCS Henry). Its fully functional (they actually fired a blank from it one day and damn near blew the roof off).


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## Colin Parkinson (30 Aug 2020)

Amazing how far a blank in a 105mm howitzer will fire a oil soaked roll of toilet paper or so I heard  8)


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## Cloud Cover (1 Sep 2020)

Besides being an excellent recruiting and PA video, this little number released by the RCN this morning shoes some excellent footage of weapons current in use by RCN + RCAF in wartime domain.

https://twitter.com/RoyalCanNavy/status/1300852466607677440?s=20


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## Oldgateboatdriver (1 Sep 2020)

Am I the only one who finds it amazingly ironic that the only clearly identifiable woman seen in the 2 minutes video (other than the waving officer on the bridge wing in the last second) is actually shown in the sailmaker's shop using a sewing machine on some material.

The military keeps being it's own worse enemy where equality is concerned.

 :facepalm:


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## Cloud Cover (1 Sep 2020)

Which is a real shame because the XO of one of those ships is female.


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## Weinie (1 Sep 2020)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Am I the only one who finds it amazingly ironic that the only clearly identifiable woman seen in the 2 minutes video (other than the waving officer on the bridge wing in the last second) is actually shown in the sailmaker's shop using a sewing machine on some material.
> 
> The military keeps being it's own worse enemy where equality is concerned.
> 
> :facepalm:



OGBD....PM coming


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## Cloud Cover (2 Sep 2020)

Watched it a few more times. There’s 4 scenes including Amber, but you have to really look closely.


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## FSTO (2 Sep 2020)

CloudCover said:
			
		

> Watched it a few more times. There’s 4 scenes including Amber, but you have to really look closely.



Just saw a new CAF recruiting advert. Women and darker melanin skin tones were very prevalent, although there was one visual of the oppressor so not a 100% win!  ;D


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## dimsum (2 Sep 2020)

FSTO said:
			
		

> Just saw a new CAF recruiting advert. Women and darker melanin skin tones were very prevalent, although there was one visual of the oppressor so not a 100% win!  ;D



Do you have a link, or was it on TV/other media?


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## Kirkhill (2 Sep 2020)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Make me king for the day and I would do the following:
> 
> Have the AOP's fitted with the 57mm Mk 3 and the existing 25mm moved to another location, along with an improved FCS
> 
> ...



Could you find deck space on the AOPS (or even the Kingstons) to strap on something like this?  Already being added to the Yanks LCS and the Norwegian Skjold.

http://navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2016/june-2016-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/4049-video-royal-norwegian-navy-skjold-class-corvette-fires-nsm-against-coastal-land-target.html



> The Naval Strike Missile (NSM) is an anti-ship and land-attack missile developed by the Norwegian company Kongsberg Defence & Aerospace (KDA). The original Norwegian name was Nytt sjømålsmissil (literally New sea target missile, indicating that it is the successor of the Penguin missile); the English marketing name Naval Strike Missile was adopted later. The missile will weigh slightly more than 400 kg (880 lb) and have a range of more than 185 km (100 nm). The usage of a high strength titanium alloy blast/fragmentation warhead from TDW is in line with the modern lightweight design and features insensitive high-explosive.
> 
> An Naval Strike Missile coastal battery consists of three missile launch vehicles, one battery command vehicle, three combat command vehicles, one mobile communication center, one mobile radar vehicle with TRS-15C radar, one transport and loading vehicle, and one mobile workshop vehicle. Each MLV carries 4 missiles and can be connected to the CCV by optical fiber or radio up to 10 km (6.2 mi) away; up to 6 launchers with 24 missiles can be netted together at once. When installed on ships, NSMs can be deck-mounted in packs of one, two, three, four, or six launchers. In June 2013 Poland completed the Coastal Missile Division equipped with 12 NSM and 23 vehicles on Jelcz chassis.









https://militaryleak.com/2020/05/17/us-marines-will-field-jltv-rogue-fires-vehicle-with-naval-strike-missile/

Not quite a Tomahawk but more versatile than Harpoon


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## FSTO (3 Sep 2020)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Do you have a link, or was it on TV/other media?


It was on CBC "The National" on Monday night I think.


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## Kirkhill (6 Sep 2020)

It seems a good Sunday to propose more off-kilter thinking.

Headline - Get rid of surface sailors.  

(Maybe not all of them - but it makes for a good headline)

1. Surface vessels are targets.
1a. Surface vessels can't out run missiles.
1b . Missiles are cheaper than ships.  (You can buy a lot for each ship).

2. Submarines are harder to hit.
2a. Submarines still can't out run missiles but they are harder to find
2b. Submarines are more expensive than ships (but do they have to be?)

Do all submarines need crews?  What size of vessel do you need to carry 50 ready to fire weapons of the Tomahawk/Harpoon-NSM/Mk48-Stingray range without a crew?  Does it need to dive deep or does it just need to be able to get below the waves?

3. Lilypads
3a. US Marines (and Royals) looking for cheap lilypads  
      https://army.ca/forums/threads/122373/post-1626047.html#msg1626047      
      https://army.ca/forums/threads/132613/post-1617778.html#msg1617778

The vessels involved can barely make seaway.  With speeds in the 14 kt range they are not designed to out run anything.  Conclusion?  They are designed to be sunk.  They are expendable.  Unfortunate for the crews.  Fortunately they are only looking at 40 or so sailors in wastage.

But, maybe, they don't need to waste those sailors?

Here is the marines notional Lilypad.






Here is a Robot Lilypad in trials





https://news.usni.org/2020/09/04/6-companies-awarded-contracts-to-start-work-on-large-unmanned-surface-vehicle


And helicopters become the Universal Connectors on a mobile, shape-shifting chessboard of cheap, robot lilypads guarded by a fleet of manned submarines and unmanned submersible arsenals.

Meanwhile, what is the impact of permanent, self-fueling, swarm of UAVs supplying top-cover?  With a mix of Fire Scouts included for reactive firepower.





https://www.military.com/daily-news/2016/06/24/navy-to-demo-swarming-drones-at-sea-in-july.html






You will still need a floating hangar with bodies for maintenance of all those helicopters.  But perhaps you won't need floating barracks if you can get troops expeditiously from the spouse and kids to the appropriate lilypad.

Fire at Will!  (My name's Chris).   ;D   :cheers:


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## Humphrey Bogart (6 Sep 2020)

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> It seems a good Sunday to propose more off-kilter thinking.
> 
> Headline - Get rid of surface sailors.
> 
> ...



Missiles also can't hit submarines. Torpedoes can but some submarines can also outrun torpedoes  8)


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## GR66 (6 Sep 2020)

Or something like this?

https://thefutureofthings.com/4616-smx-25-a-ship-sub-hybrid/

Deploy quickly to theatre with a small crew.  Low radar cross section.  UAV to extend sensor range.  Missiles to strike surface/land targets.

When attacked by enemy missiles it dives below the surface to evade attack.  When attacked by enemy torpedoes it surfaces and uses its speed to attempt to outrun them.


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## Cloud Cover (6 Sep 2020)

I think GI Joe had one of those?

For the RCN about as out of the box we will see is an stealthy armed trawler that can perform some remote sensing mine warfare, a bit player in asw using unmanned craft and perhaps another auxiliary role involving an NTOG or SF mandate.


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## Kirkhill (12 Sep 2020)

Following Up

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/us-navy-wants-test-its-unmanned-battle-fleet-168846



> September 11, 2020  Topic: Security  Blog Brand: The Buzz  Tags: U.S. NavyUnmanned ShipsAutonomous VehiclesDronesNaval Warfar
> The U.S. Navy Wants to Test Its Unmanned Battle Fleet
> Can drones truly take over the high seas?
> 
> ...




My sense is that the US Navy is moving towards finding its Whaler for the 2020s*.

https://news.usni.org/2020/09/04/6-companies-awarded-contracts-to-start-work-on-large-unmanned-surface-vehicle
https://www.gibbscox.com/blog/gibbscoxmusv
https://www.naval-technology.com/news/us-navy-awards-contract-to-l3harris-to-develop-musv-prototype/
https://breakingdefense.com/2020/07/navy-inks-deal-for-new-unmanned-fleet/
https://news.usni.org/2020/08/27/marines-already-in-industry-studies-for-light-amphibious-warship-in-bid-to-field-them-asap

Here is the image for the Light Amphibious Warship






Here is the image for the Gibbs & Cox / L3Harris Large Unmanned Surface Vessel






Here are images for the Ghost Fleet Overlord Phase 1 trials










And here are links for Fast Supply Vessels built by Swiftships - They are cheap, simple, adaptable and long in service.

https://swiftships.com/175-ft-fast-supply-vessel/
https://swiftships.com/185-ft-crew-and-supply-vessel/

From what I can gather the USN is looking at two classes of sea-going vessels, a Medium Unmanned Surface Vessel with plans to field up to 40 vessels in the near term (5 year), and a Large Unmanned Surface Vessel.  I can't find the numbers planned.   At the same time the USMC is seeking the Light Amphibious Warfare Vessel with plans to field up to 30 vessels.

The MUSV is expected to be an ISR platform in the 45 to 190 ft range with a displacement of 500 tons - almost identical to the WW2 Flower corvettes.  A 35 MUSD contract has been awarded to L3Harris for a MUSV prototype to be designed and built and trialled for delivery in 2023.  8 more to follow if successful.  32 more if adopted.

The LUSV is expected to be a missile platform launching missiles from vertical launch tubes (apparently containerized and to be carried as cargo on the deck).  That vessel is to be based on a 1000 to 2000 ton commercial hull of 200 to 300 ft in length drawing on the expertise of the Offshore Supply Vessel (OSV) industry, with particular interest in the class known as the Fast Supply Vessel or Fast Intervention and Supply Vessel.  Congress is telling the USN to hold up on deciding what to do about the VLS system for the moment.  The project goes by the name Ghost Fleet Overlord.

The Marines LAW is expected to be a 200 ft beachable cargo hauler with a helideck and RoRo capability with accommodation for 75 marines (and up to 40 crew).  It too is based on existing commercial OSV standards and is intended for fast delivery. They are looking for up to 30 vessels.

My sense is that there is not a great deal of difference between the Marines OSV (LAW) and the Navy's OSV (LUSV) beyond the speed and I am sure the Marines would not complain if they could get a faster vessel at an acceptable price.

My  Concept of Operations would be to have the Unmanned Fleet hover unmanned but then fly on a skeleton crew when working in tight sea ways and when conducting beaching and docking ops if necessary.  The Marines are swapped out for the missiles essentially and are just another round for the Navy to launch.

Also the USN has some 38 LCS hulls in the water, under construction or under contract with an intention to supply them with a total of 66 crews.  The LCS (3104 tonnes light - Indepence Class Trimaran) may not be appropriate for bouncing around the briny. It may be overpriced.  It may even have a short lifespan.  But.  As a highspeed link between hovering lily pads, as a command and control node, as a combination local ferry and Very Large PT boat it could be integrated into the ConOps.  As could the 14 Spearfish class 43 knot,  1500 tonne, EPFs previously known as JHSVs with crews of 41 and capacity for 600 short tons and 312 troops with an MH-60 and ability to land CH-53K Sea Stallions.

That is an awful lot of moving squares on the chess board.

And all backed by 


2x LHA
8x LHD
11x LPD
12x LSD
2x LCC
1x Special Warfare Support Vessel
2x Expeditionary Support Base - Expeditionary Mobile Base
2x Expeditionary Support Base - Expeditionary Transfer Dock
130x Military Sealift Command Ships
Civilian Cargo Carriers

Protected by 

10x CVNs (+1)
22x CGs
67x DDGs
51x SSNs
4x SSGNs
14x SSBNs

Looking over that list, and the capabilities it represents, particularly if concentrated geographically and not scattered hither and yon on high tech constabulary duties, I don't think there are many competitors in a position to win a battle, much less a war.   Of course, for the concentration to happen it may require friends to step in and handle the constabulary duties to keep the sea lanes clear.

























*





> In early 1939, with the risk of war with Nazi Germany increasing, it was clear to the Royal Navy that it needed more escort ships to counter the threat from Kriegsmarine U-boats. One particular concern was the need to protect shipping off the east coast of Britain. What was needed was something larger and faster than trawlers, but still cheap enough to be built in large numbers, preferably at small merchant shipyards, as larger yards were already busy. To meet this requirement, the Smiths Dock Company of Middlesbrough, a specialist in the design and build of fishing vessels, offered a development of its 700-ton, 16 knots (18 mph; 30 km/h) whale catcher Southern Pride.[6][7] They were intended as small convoy escort ships that could be produced quickly and cheaply in large numbers. Despite naval planners' intentions that they be deployed for coastal convoys, their long range meant that they became the mainstay of Mid-Ocean Escort Force convoy protection during the first half of the war.


 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower-class_corvette#Design


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