# What keeps or kept you in the CAF?



## FortYorkRifleman (24 May 2015)

The past few years have not been kind to the CAF with reports of sexual misconduct, low morale, old equipment with no replacements in sight etc. On top of that with the mission in Afghanistan over and recent missions leaning towards the Air Force and Special Operations what keeps you in the CAF? For those who have retired what kept you from hanging it up whether it be during the decade of darkness or some other period.


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## OldSolduer (24 May 2015)

We've been through scandals etc, budgetary issues, crappy leadership and all that,

I stay to see what happens next.


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## dapaterson (24 May 2015)

“C'est le temps que tu a perdu pour ta rose qui fait ta rose si importante.”

― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, The Little Prince


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## FortYorkRifleman (24 May 2015)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> “C'est le temps que tu a perdu pour ta rose qui fait ta rose si importante.”
> 
> ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, The Little Prince



It is the time spent for your rose that makes your rose so important, right? I didn't use Google to translate that as I am brushing up on my French


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## RedcapCrusader (25 May 2015)

I don't let public opinion drag me down. I serve with pride, honour, and integrity to my country. Nobody can take that from me no matter the scandal.

Plus my job is fucking cool!


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## kratz (25 May 2015)

I loved the job, daily challenges and changing nature of the work. 
If I had the choice, I would have remained in the RCN.


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## Monsoon (25 May 2015)

Hands down, the people I work with. Job satisfaction comes and goes, but the friend network is always there.


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## medicineman (25 May 2015)

I like remodelling young impressionable minds into productive, working and professional people...with just a touch of me tossed in  :nod:.

MM


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## Eye In The Sky (25 May 2015)

For my community, a great job to begin with, relaxed professional environment, still some great TDs despite shrinking YFR, and our part in current ops.  We are always "operational" domestically or deployed and it helps keep morale up.  We rarely have the same repetitive work day or week and things are always popping up.

Top that off with check-in vice dig-in, TDs to some sweet locations, and spec pay and aircrew allowance and it's hard to be truly disgruntled.

Anyone thinking of doing an OT to a flying trade, I say go for it; the grass is greener and king size beds in hotels beats the shit out of mod tents.


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## sidemount (25 May 2015)

I heard the Air Force is hiring....an OT may be in order


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## runormal (25 May 2015)

A few things,

The people. The people I've met on the army have been some of the best (and worst) that I have ever met. I know I can depend on pretty much anyone and they can expect the same from me.

The other thing  is the job itself. Where else do you get given a rifle and sign for thousands of dollars of equipment at 22 ? Sure some times you are bored out of your mind on the graveyard shift but that rush when it gets real busy in the TOC or if you are lucky enough to be attached with the infantry makes it all worth it.

As a student there are also many great perks (ILPs, field pay, claims) and the flexibility to do as much or as a little as you want. Personally I do as much as possible but it is nice knowing that if you need a weekend off it is usually OK.

Other things include the work ethic especially attention to detail. I also work in an office and multiple people have commented that "they are blown away for my ethic and attention to detail". (I guess inspections were a good use of time after all >).

While I've only been in a short amount of time the time in the reserves has benefited me far more than I expected.


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## dimsum (25 May 2015)

sidemount said:
			
		

> I heard the Air Force is hiring....an OT may be in order



 :nod:

I made some great friends in the Navy and did some pretty cool stuff, but I don't regret CT/OT-ing to the RCAF.  In both, a young person in their early 20s can be, and usually is, in charge of millions of dollars' worth of equipment.   In the case of a MARS Officer, 30 to 250 lives as OOW or 2OOW.

A few nice postings haven't hurt either.


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## sidemount (25 May 2015)

Ive got 12 years in the army, afghanistan tour, lots of good goes great friends, I think it may be time for a change. Id like to be involved with flying. The posting I think would be better for my family.


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## FortYorkRifleman (25 May 2015)

How much of it is "I've devoted so much of myself, both in time and blood, that I can't see myself starting over"?


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## Humphrey Bogart (25 May 2015)

I'll tell you what keeps me in the army....

Soldiers, laughter and stories!  In that order.


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## Eye In The Sky (25 May 2015)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> A few nice postings haven't hurt either.



Always rubbing it in  

 ;D


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## brihard (25 May 2015)

The great food, scenic training areas, smooth administration, and the hot women.


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## mariomike (25 May 2015)

"What keeps or kept you in the CAF?"

^ I would look at that question another way. ^

I was in the Reserves. It wasn't my career.

But, if the CAF is going to be your career, why not plan on staying in ( if possible ) for the whole ride?

Are people changing careers more now than they used to?


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## FortYorkRifleman (25 May 2015)

mariomike said:
			
		

> "What keeps or kept you in the CAF?"
> 
> ^ I would look at that question another way. ^
> 
> ...



My goal is make it my career till retirement but I'm not sure how my body will be in ten years as I want to be in Infantry


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## mariomike (25 May 2015)

FortYorkRifleman said:
			
		

> My goal is make it my career till retirement but I'm not sure how my body will be in ten years as I want to be in Infantry



Congratulations. That's why I was careful to include the "if possible" part.


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## dimsum (25 May 2015)

mariomike said:
			
		

> "What keeps or kept you in the CAF?"
> 
> ^ I would look at that question another way. ^
> 
> ...



That's a good point.  

At the risk of taking this on a tangent, the Australian Defence Force's recruiting ads don't (or haven't lately) focus on making it a career.  By and large (each service does its own recruiting), they focus on "fun" things and carefully state that most trades "only need a x years contract".  

I think that this is a bad way to go, but that's just my  :2c:


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## mariomike (25 May 2015)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> At the risk of taking this on a tangent, the Australian Defence Force's recruiting ads don't (or haven't lately) focus on making it a career.  By and large (each service does its own recruiting), they focus on "fun" things and carefully state that most trades "only need a x years contract".
> 
> I think that this is a bad way to go, but that's just my  :2c:



I think it's an awful bad way to go. The Profession of Arms is more than just a job, it's a vocation.


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## sidemount (25 May 2015)

Agreed, after doing this for the last 12 years, Im in it for the long haul. I dont think Id be able to make a career out of a civy job, the military lifestyle is in my blood now. That being said a change of scenary may be required but it will be within the CAF.


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## OldSolduer (25 May 2015)

mariomike said:
			
		

> I think it's an awful bad way to go. The Profession of Arms is more than just a job, it's a vocation.



I'll add that it is a way of life as well.


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## Humphrey Bogart (25 May 2015)

FortYorkRifleman said:
			
		

> My goal is make it my career till retirement but I'm not sure how my body will be in ten years as I want to be in Infantry



Better you know early.... it'll be knackered!


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## Eye In The Sky (26 May 2015)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Are people changing careers more now than they used to?



I joined July 1989 and am in my 3rd MOC/MOSID.


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## Inspir (26 May 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I joined *July 1889* and am in my 3rd MOC/MOSID.



Damn


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## Eye In The Sky (26 May 2015)

Corrected for PEBCAK error.


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## Kat Stevens (26 May 2015)

I joined for the money, I stayed for the mud.


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## Pusser (26 May 2015)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> That's a good point.
> 
> At the risk of taking this on a tangent, the Australian Defence Force's recruiting ads don't (or haven't lately) focus on making it a career.  By and large (each service does its own recruiting), they focus on "fun" things and carefully state that most trades "only need a x years contract".
> 
> I think that this is a bad way to go, but that's just my  :2c:



Although I agree that military service is more than just a job and is in fact, both a vocation and a way of life, I think the CF puts too much effort into trying to make it a career for everyone.  I think we would be a lot healthier as an organization if we encouraged more short time membership.  I think almost everybody can benefit from military service, but not everyone can or should make a career of it.

Having said that, as a career member, I stick around for:

1) six-weeks paid vacation
2) six-figure salary (and the pension that is to come);
3) I get to play hockey on company time; and
4) I only occasionally get shot at.


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## mariomike (26 May 2015)

Pusser said:
			
		

> I think we would be a lot healthier as an organization if we encouraged more short time membership.



Perhaps they are.

"How long do I have to serve?"
http://www.forces.ca/en/page/careeroptions-123#tphp

That's the first question asked and answered under both the full and part time tabs.


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## dapaterson (26 May 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I joined July 1989 and am in my 3rd MOC/MOSID.



I joined a few months later, and am in #4 (although one was a COT due to a restructure of the occupation).


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## 211RadOp (26 May 2015)

The beer!!  :cheers:

Actually it is as most said, the comraderie.  Most of us can travel from coast to coast and not have to pay for a hotel and will always find someone to have a beverage with.


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## Eye In The Sky (26 May 2015)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I joined a few months later, and am in #4 (although one was a COT due to a restructure of the occupation).



4 is the record right now then  :nod:


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## George Wallace (26 May 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> 4 is the record right is now then  :nod:



Yes.  He is still the title holder.  I only had three, but have collected six Release Certificates.


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## Eye In The Sky (26 May 2015)

Unlikely to see that number beat...


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## Brasidas (26 May 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Unlikely to see that number beat...



I'm sure its been beaten by somebody somewhere.


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## jollyjacktar (26 May 2015)

Stay in long enough, you get to a point where you have too much to lose by getting out before you're pensionable.  Once that benchmark is reached the game changes.  Some stay because they really enjoy or feel fulfilled by what they do or who they work with.  This does become challenging at times as the system seems hell bent on stamping out any bits of the fun factor there might have been in former days.

For myself, I would be gone now if the oil industry had not gone pear shaped and threw a monkey wrench in my hopes and dreams.  So until I do find a better hole to go to, I'll stay and continue to earn my pay and pay my bills.


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## Edward Campbell (26 May 2015)

I will not talk about me. What drew me in, over 50 years ago, and what kept me in, for 35+ years, were (still are) too diverse and complex to sum up in a few sentences.

But, I saw this, posted by a partner (very senior bloke) in a giant, global management consulting firm:

          
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Civvies get the order wrong ... "mission" comes first, promotion and pay are last, but the other factors, being "trusted," "mentored," "valued" and "involved," and so on, are all part of what makes the CF a GREAT place for many people. But, and this is a BIG BUT, the CF is not the right place for everyone ... if you fit the CF and the CF suits you then that's great, but it's no shame to be ill-suited for naval or military service.


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## mariomike (27 May 2015)

>



Interesting.

Most ( almost all ) of the employees I hired on with stayed in for the whole ride. I believe it is similar in the police and fire services.

Maybe it was for the reasons above, or maybe because it was a steady job.


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## misratah500 (27 May 2015)

I told myself if I could get through the first 10 years of my career, I would do that last 10 years. For me things are now just economic. I'm close to getting my 20 year pension, I make great money, the benefits are top notch for now and the stability is key considering today's job market. 

The RCN as an organization does not really appeal to me whatsoever any more. Seems to be more focused on style over substance and I have lost faith in most of the leadership which comes and goes and means little to me. A lot of my friends in the RCN feel the same way too, we just all seem to be here for our own reasons now punching the clock.  If I was joining up now I doubt I would do the 25 years required to retire. 

We haven't commissioned a single surface ship in my 16 years in the navy (Orcas dont' count) and I'm not sure if we'll commission one before I retire in 2020. That's pathetic. 

Back in the days when I was an AB in my section the PO2's ran it and that's how it was. The PO2 had the power of his section in our department and decided what the work priorities were, gave time off to those who deserved it and allowed people time for appointments or what not. You kept it in the section. The PO2 dealt with the discipline and watched his guys backs and they watched each others. Now everything has to practically go through the Div O and the PO2's and MS have no power at all. I feel the navy treats people like children these days. 

I don't feel there are really any opportunities to be a good leader of men, it's all about personnel management and being a manager and covering your ass. I hate that way of doing business. I want to be inspired by the people above me, I want to work for them and strive to be the best I can be, but all I see is weakness, dithering and lack of direction in my leadership. Too many people are afraid to make a decision because they don't want to be wrong, so it's safer sometimes to just not make it. 

I am a pessimist at heart it seems and I just don't see great things coming down the pipeline for the navy. The AOPS are garbage MCDV redux ships that we don't need and should be sent to the Coast Guard, the new tankers will be years off and be way over budget. The frigates will be driven into the ground like the 280's were cause the CSC project will most likely fall way behind and I highly doubt we replace the ships 1 for 1. Why is it with each generation of procurement through the last decades do we keep shrinking in assets. Can't we ever grow in assets. (Hulls, planes, tanks etc)

I swear it would take a Pearl Harbour type event to decimate our navy in combat to finally force the government to build a real combat capable navy. Someone has to die before real change would happen. 

/endrant


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## daftandbarmy (27 May 2015)

Fun.  :nod:


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## FortYorkRifleman (27 May 2015)

Would you guys say morale is dependent on which branch you are in now?


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## daftandbarmy (27 May 2015)

FortYorkRifleman said:
			
		

> Would you guys say morale is dependent on which branch you are in now?



No. 

Leadership and the behaviour of your peers, as well as your own mindset, is usually the greatest factors in morale - good or bad.


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## Pusser (27 May 2015)

misratah500 said:
			
		

> I told myself if I could get through the first 10 years of my career, I would do that last 10 years. For me things are now just economic. I'm close to getting my 20 year pension, I make great money, the benefits are top notch for now and the stability is key considering today's job market.
> 
> The RCN as an organization does not really appeal to me whatsoever any more. Seems to be more focused on style over substance and I have lost faith in most of the leadership which comes and goes and means little to me. A lot of my friends in the RCN feel the same way too, we just all seem to be here for our own reasons now punching the clock.  If I was joining up now I doubt I would do the 25 years required to retire.
> 
> ...



There is a lot of truth in what you say.  In my view, the Navy is not as much fun as it used to be.  However, I will point out that you can pluck anyone from any era in history and he/she would have an almost identical rant.  I'm sure there were sailors in Caesar's navy who complained about the lack of equipment, poor leadership and new ships.  Plus ça change, plus ça la meme chose.  Or, better yet, my favourite:

The navy ain't what it used to be - and never was...


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## mariomike (27 May 2015)

misratah500 said:
			
		

> I told myself if I could get through the first 10 years of my career, I would do that last 10 years.



Assuming your service has been in the Regular Force, would you not consider "max-ing out" your pension to 70 per cent?


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## Ayrsayle (18 Jul 2015)

Still challenged by the job - and by the people I've been able to serve with.  By and large I'd say it is due to the people and the sense of professional challenge.  Our profession has more then its fair share of warts and issues, but having worked civy side the grass isn't greener.  I feel we get paid quite well (benefits, etc) for the amount of training we receive, but I don't know too many that choose the military solely for the money.

May sound naive, but I genuinely enjoy making a difference.  Sometimes it's not always clear what the difference is, or how positive it is - but I'd rather be involved in the process then critiquing from the sidelines.


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## Pronto215 (19 Jul 2015)

I think most of the issue stems from a lack of identity for the CAF as a whole, not to mention the fact that it seems like the officer corps is trying to keep NCO's and NCM's under their thumb. I am not going to sit here and say that all officers are bad however I will state a lack of leadership in the officer ranks mixed with pension punching NCO's makes for leadership gaps. As for why I have stayed in and ran the gaunlet of S#it, its because I love tours, courses and all the crazy moments that come along with the job. The money is less than where it should be by far and comraderie seems more of a buzz word for the .com's along with morale and welfare.


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## Edward Campbell (19 Jul 2015)

Pronto215 said:
			
		

> I think most of the issue stems from a lack of identity for the CAF as a whole, not to mention the fact that it seems like the officer corps is trying to keep NCO's and NCM's under their thumb. I am not going to sit here and say that all officers are bad however I will state a lack of leadership in the officer ranks mixed with pension punching NCO's makes for leadership gaps. As for why I have stayed in and ran the gaunlet of S#it, its because I love tours, courses and all the crazy moments that come along with the job. _The money is less than where it should be by far_ and comraderie seems more of a buzz word for the .com's along with morale and welfare.




Just a historical note: military pay has _almost_ never been what it "should be," but, equally, professional military forces have, more often than not, performed well, very well, usually surprisingly well despite low pay and (too often) indifferent leadership. The "mission" ("the tours  ... and all the crazy moments") creates, _I think_, it's own form of camaraderie ...

     _“We, the unwilling, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing.”_
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       ― Konstantin Jireček

     ... and the people, especially the NCOs, then "dig in" and "get 'er done," for themselves, for their mates and for their own personal pride. (In a long career I concluded that most of us didn't _serve_ Canada or some wooly political ideals like "peace," we _served_ our mates, the guys (and gals) next to us in the ranks (and even in the office, later in life) and we did (and you do) the "impossible" just because we could and because we took personal pride in doing that.)


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## Pronto215 (19 Jul 2015)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Just a historical note: military pay has _almost_ never been what it "should be," but, equally, professional military forces have, more often than not, performed well, very well, usually surprisingly well despite low pay and (too often) indifferent leadership. The "mission" ("the tours  ... and all the crazy moments") creates, _I think_, it's own form of camaraderie ...
> 
> _“We, the unwilling, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing.”_
> ― Konstantin Jireček
> ...



I agree with a lot of what you are saying, I think to sum up my point is there is no identity because there is no mission to rally behind cupled with the lack of money is having a lot of trickle effect that is sending more and more people for the hills.


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## George Wallace (19 Jul 2015)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Just a historical note: military pay has _almost_ never been what it "should be," but, equally, professional military forces have, more often than not, performed well, very well, usually surprisingly well despite low pay and (too often) indifferent leadership. The "mission" ("the tours  ... and all the crazy moments") creates, _I think_, it's own form of camaraderie ...
> 
> _“We, the unwilling, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing.”_
> ― Konstantin Jireček
> ...




Well said E.R.C.  The amounts of camaraderie one finds in the military will vary greatly from Trade to Trade, and is probably felt the strongest in the Combat Arms Trades (of all Elements) due to their working closely as a 'team' in the performance of their duties.  No matter what the Trade though, military and former military maintain bonds with their comrades that will not be found in any other organization.   These bonds are witnessed here on this site, on FaceBook sites, at the Royal Canadian Legion and other Veteran's Associations, and often at impromptu and/or informal gatherings at former unit or Course gatherings; not to mention Veteran's gatherings during Nov 11 and other remembrance ceremonies and occasions.


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## Harrigan (19 Jul 2015)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Just a historical note: military pay has _almost_ never been what it "should be," but, equally, professional military forces have, more often than not, performed well, very well, usually surprisingly well despite low pay and (too often) indifferent leadership. The "mission" ("the tours  ... and all the crazy moments") creates, _I think_, it's own form of camaraderie ...
> 
> _“We, the unwilling, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing.”_
> ― Konstantin Jireček
> ...



Hear, Hear!

I suspect that people join up for different reasons than they stay in.  The value and importance of camaraderie and fellowship gained 'in the mob' is not something that can be easily conceptualized before one walks into the recruiting centre.  

There haven't been many negative responses to this question yet, which is good to see.  Of course, those of us who frequent this site no doubt do so because we have fond attachment to the CAF.  If we didn't, we likely would not be on this site.  

Ultimately, people can make of their time in the CAF what they want to make of it.  One can be miserable anywhere, and one can be happy anywhere too - it just takes the right attitude.

Harrigan


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## FortYorkRifleman (19 Jul 2015)

I often wonder if there's some inherent desire/pull for people, especially men, to serve in the military. Since I began the process to re-enroll and back during my first time in I always had people, again mostly men, approach me or during work hours at my civilian job say "they wish they had joined" or "it's one of my biggest regrets not joining" or most frequently "it's too late for me otherwise I'd do it now." 

I think you have to love the lifestyle and the job, or maybe one over the other. I'll figure that out once I'm over the fence and on that side but right now there's nothing more that I want than to be an Infanteer.


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## Edward Campbell (19 Jul 2015)

FortYorkRifleman said:
			
		

> I often wonder if there's some inherent desire/pull for people, especially men, to serve in the military. Since I began the process to re-enroll and back during my first time in I always had people, again mostly men, approach me or during work hours at my civilian job say "they wish they had joined" or "it's one of my biggest regrets not joining" or most frequently "it's too late for me otherwise I'd do it now."
> 
> I think you have to love the lifestyle and the job, or maybe one over the other. I'll figure that out once I'm over the fence and on that side but right now there's nothing more that I want than to be an Infanteer.



You mean like Samuel Johnson said, about 250 year ago?

                   
                    
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




          _ "Every man thinks meanly of himself for
          not having been a soldier, or not having
                              been at sea."_


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## mariomike (19 Jul 2015)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> No matter what the Trade though, military and former military maintain bonds with their comrades that will not be found in any other organization.



_Not to disagree with the above_, but I believe similar bonds can also be found in the Emergency Services. Although on a much smaller scale.

There are about 700,000 CAF veterans in Canada. Add to that the number of currently serving members.
http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/news/general-statistics

One reason for Emergency Services being close knit was that we had much smaller departments and jurisdictions ( 243 square miles ). Transfers were voluntary. Your partner, station and platoon was permanent.
All members were full-time only, and almost all stayed on for the whole ride.
It was ( and still is ) a "closed shop" for almost a century, so that may have had something to do with the mentality.
The department has done more, officially and unofficially, to include, honour ( and help those who needed it ) retired members than I can mention here. 
My late uncle was a Metro Police pensioner, and he told me they were also good. The Fire service is legendary for taking care of their pensioners.



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> These bonds are witnessed here on this site, on FaceBook sites, at the Royal Canadian Legion and other Veteran's Associations, and often at impromptu and/or informal gatherings at former unit or Course gatherings; not to mention Veteran's gatherings during Nov 11 and other remembrance ceremonies and occasions.



From what I have read of the 17-page "Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL withers?" discussion, perhaps young people prefer the Internet. 

I personally look forward to our scheduled luncheons and informal get togethers with former co-workers.


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## FortYorkRifleman (19 Jul 2015)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> You mean like Samuel Johnson said, about 250 year ago?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah that sums it up.


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## RocketRichard (19 Jul 2015)

Too many differences between military and emergency services to enumerate here...


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## mariomike (19 Jul 2015)

RocketRichard said:
			
		

> Too many differences between military and emergency services to enumerate here...



Of course you are right. I was simply replying to this: "bonds with their comrades that will not be found in any other organization."


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## Pronto215 (19 Jul 2015)

I feel like there is a growing lack of comraderie in the CAF currently. It might be in part to the new generation but when I first joined it seemed like everyone wanted to get together at the mess or bbq's but it seems like those days are long gone. Maybe it has to do with drinking, frat, I don't know, however there is clear disconnect.


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## mariomike (19 Jul 2015)

Pronto215 said:
			
		

> I feel like there is a growing lack of comraderie in the CAF currently.



I was a reservist and have been out a long time. But, from what I have read on here, you may have a point.

Camaraderie
http://army.ca/forums/threads/115536.0

Camaraderie and brotherhood in the CF. 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/111347.0

Fellowship, fraternity/brotherhood and Camaraderie in non-combat arms trades?
http://army.ca/forums/threads/86552.0/nowap.html


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## FortYorkRifleman (19 Jul 2015)

Pronto215 said:
			
		

> I feel like there is a growing lack of comraderie in the CAF currently. It might be in part to the new generation but when I first joined it seemed like everyone wanted to get together at the mess or bbq's but it seems like those days are long gone. Maybe it has to do with drinking, frat, I don't know, however there is clear disconnect.



Could you elaborate on that? I would think the bonding that people go through and the sense of family you develop with your section mates etc would make one want to remain in the CAF.


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## George Wallace (19 Jul 2015)

Pronto215 said:
			
		

> I feel like there is a growing lack of comraderie in the CAF currently. It might be in part to the new generation but when I first joined it seemed like everyone wanted to get together at the mess or bbq's but it seems like those days are long gone. Maybe it has to do with drinking, frat, I don't know, however there is clear disconnect.



There is that, but wait ten or twenty years and watch what they do.  That is when you often find them bonding, as it is something that they miss when they have left and now have the desire to renew/maintain those connections.

When you are young and 'invincible' you don't worry about history, but as you get older, you start to and actively look for photos/videos/memorabilia of those days in your youth.   ;D


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## Fishbone Jones (19 Jul 2015)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> You mean like Samuel Johnson said, about 250 year ago?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Or The Bard in _Henry V_

As King Henry says during his Crispian Day speech, before Agincourt:

WESTMORELAND. O that we now had here
 But one ten thousand of those men in England
 That do no work to-day!

KING. What’s he that wishes so?
 My cousin, Westmoreland? No, my fair cousin;
 If we are mark’d to die, we are enow
 To do our country loss; and if to live,
 The fewer men, the greater share of honour.
 God’s will! I pray thee, wish not one man more.
 By Jove, I am not covetous for gold,
 Nor care I who doth feed upon my cost;
 It yearns me not if men my garments wear;
 Such outward things dwell not in my desires.
 But if it be a sin to covet honour,
 I am the most offending soul alive.
 No, faith, my coz, wish not a man from England.
 God’s peace! I would not lose so great an honour
 As one man more methinks would share from me
 For the best hope I have. O, do not wish one more!
 Rather proclaim it, Westmoreland, through my host,
 That he which hath no stomach to this fight,
 Let him depart; his passport shall be made,
 And crowns for convoy put into his purse;
 We would not die in that man’s company
 That fears his fellowship to die with us.
 This day is call’d the feast of Crispian.
 He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,
 Will stand a tip-toe when this day is nam’d,
 And rouse him at the name of Crispian.
 He that shall live this day, and see old age,
 Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
 And say “To-morrow is Saint Crispian.”
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars,
 And say “These wounds I had on Crispin's day.”
Old men forget; yet all shall be forgot,
 But he’ll remember, with advantages,
 What feats he did that day. Then shall our names,
 Familiar in his mouth as household words-
 Harry the King, Bedford and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester-
 Be in their flowing cups freshly rememb’red.
 This story shall the good man teach his son;
 And Crispin Crispian shall ne’er go by,
_From this day to the ending of the world,
 But we in it shall be remembered-
 We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
 For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
 Shall be my brother; be he ne’er so vile,
 This day shall gentle his condition;
 And gentlemen in England now-a-bed
 Shall think themselves accurs’d they were not here,
 And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
 That fought with us upon Saint Crispin’s day._


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## my72jeep (20 Jul 2015)

My sig line covers it. It was a duty. And I had fun.


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## Thompson_JM (20 Jul 2015)

I'm at the point after 16 years (PRES) where it's time to finally hang up my hat. 

Without going into detail, it's simply time. However, I have no regrets, and looks fondly on all the time I've spent in uniform. It's simply time to wear a different one and protect Canadians in a different way now. 

What always kept me coming back was the shared experiences, the way we all came together as a team, and the laughs even at the lousiest of times... We always found a way to channel the warrior spirit and make the best of the bad times. 

I know I'll miss parts of it. And I'll miss belonging to such a hallowed Canadian institution, but better to leave on a high note with good memories than to exit bitter and angry.


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## Furniture (22 Jul 2015)

Like a lot of people one of my main reasons for staying is the pay, benefits and stability. The extra part that keeps me from looking elsewhere for those things is the adventure and comradery. In my 14 years I have stood on the plains of Afghanistan where Alexander the Great marched his armies east, and where the Kipling wrote of going to you "to your Gawd like a soldier". I have sailed most of the way around the world, and spent days drifting without power after a major fire in the North Pacific. I also did those things with some of the finest people I know, and would gladly go back and do them all again with those same people.

That said, when I reach my 20 it may be time to find a new adventure.


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## Pusser (22 Jul 2015)

WeatherdoG said:
			
		

> That said, when I reach my 20 it may be time to find a new adventure.



And when you get there, you think, "Wow, that went fast!  What's another 15?"  Then you also consider what benefits you're getting and a host of other things and you realize that starting all over again on the "outside" suddenly becomes less appealing.  

And "click" go the "Golden Handcuffs." :nod:


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## Edward Campbell (22 Jul 2015)

WeatherdoG said:
			
		

> Like a lot of people one of my main reasons for staying is the pay, benefits and stability. The extra part that keeps me from looking elsewhere for those things is the adventure and comradery. In my 14 years I have stood on the plains of Afghanistan where Alexander the Great marched his armies east, and where the Kipling wrote of going to you "to your Gawd like a soldier". I have sailed most of the way around the world, and spent days drifting without power after a major fire in the North Pacific. I also did those things with some of the finest people I know, and would gladly go back and do them all again with those same people.
> 
> That said, when I reach my 20 it may be time to find a new adventure.




I was in that position several years a few decades ago: I had finished 20, was, in fact nearing the end of my 21st year of service, and was approaching the end of the very best job any officer can ever have ~ and that, _I suggest_, includes being CDS. I had one or, maybe, two attractive civvie job offers and some other opportunities (grad school, for example). Then the CF offered me another _jammy_ posting: one designed, in some some part, to reward my long suffering wife for all that she had endured ... off we went. Then back to a new job ~ not, at all, fun, but a real challenge, and then another that was even more challenging but did offer some "fun" (as much fun as colonels in Ottawa are allowed to have, anyway). I finally retired on my 55th birthday! 

Yep, as Pusser says, "click."  ;D


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## The Bread Guy (22 Jul 2015)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> There is that, but wait ten or twenty years and watch what they do.  That is when you often find them bonding, as it is something that they miss when they have left and now have the desire to renew/maintain those connections.


Have to agree - last time I wore a military uniform (Reserves) was in 1989, and my best buds _still_ continue to be those I served with.


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## mariomike (22 Jul 2015)

WeatherdoG said:
			
		

> That said, when I reach my 20 it may be time to find a new adventure.



If you don't mind me asking, why not stay until the day you max-out your pension? 

"In every job that must be done, there is an element of fun. You find the fun, and - SNAP - the job's a game!"
Mary Poppins.   



			
				milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Have to agree - last time I wore a military uniform (Reserves) was in 1989, and my best buds _still_ continue to be those I served with.



I wonder how many, especially the World War veterans, remembered back something like this?

"As I look back now, a lot of years later, I realize that my time in the Army was the happiest time of my life. God knows not because I like the Army, and there sure was nothing to like about a war. I liked it for the most selfish reason of all, because I was young. We all were, me and Epstein and Wykowski, Selridge, Carney, Hennesey and even Sergeant Toomey. I didn't really like most of those guys then, but today I love every damn one of them. Life is weird, you know."
Biloxi Blues.


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## Fishbone Jones (22 Jul 2015)

Having beers with Brothers and blowing shit up. :nod:


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## Pronto215 (23 Jul 2015)

FortYorkRifleman said:
			
		

> Could you elaborate on that? I would think the bonding that people go through and the sense of family you develop with your section mates etc would make one want to remain in the CAF.



Well it use to be like that when I first joined but more and more people are just out for themselves and/or are detached from their job. My shop now is good at work but as soon as the whistle goes people take off their uniform and want nothing to do with the army. Its sad. My boss and I were talking about it last week and overall people just don't care about others like they use to and don't see the importance of the bonds we as soldiers make. But some of it is a cultural thing in the sense that we are not like the old army, we do not go to the mess on friday, we do not drink in the field, and we do not share the BASIC hardships we used to. A lot of the fun seems to have been stripped away due to budget cost and the fact that people are to worried about there troops getting in trouble that no one wants to push these things to happen.


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## jollyjacktar (23 Jul 2015)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Having beers with Brothers and blowing crap up. :nod:



Well the beers part has pretty well gone the way of the Dodo...


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## FortYorkRifleman (23 Jul 2015)

Pronto215 said:
			
		

> Well it use to be like that when I first joined but more and more people are just out for themselves and/or are detached from their job. My shop now is good at work but as soon as the whistle goes people take off their uniform and want nothing to do with the army. Its sad. My boss and I were talking about it last week and overall people just don't care about others like they use to and don't see the importance of the bonds we as soldiers make. But some of it is a cultural thing in the sense that we are not like the old army, we do not go to the mess on friday, we do not drink in the field, and we do not share the BASIC hardships we used to. A lot of the fun seems to have been stripped away due to budget cost and the fact that people are to worried about there troops getting in trouble that no one wants to push these things to happen.



Is it like that in Infantry? That's the trade I'm going into and figured the bond in the Combat Arms are typically the strongest.


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## George Wallace (23 Jul 2015)

FortYorkRifleman said:
			
		

> Is it like that in Infantry? That's the trade I'm going into and figured the bond in the Combat Arms are typically the strongest.



As pointed out in previous posts; it will vary from Trade to Trade, but the "Nine to Five" mentality is lesser in the Cbt Arms than in the "Specialist" Trades.   Another affect that sometimes hurts units is the attitudes of the Chain of Command, but this can be cyclical as people are posted in and out.  Your strongest bonds that you will likely develop will be with those whom you begin your CAF career with and progress with you through Basic and Trades training.


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## dimsum (23 Jul 2015)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Your strongest bonds that you will likely develop will be with those whom you begin your CAF career with and progress with you through Basic and Trades training.



Definitely agree.  The other group I'd include would be folks you've deployed with on operations, especially if you managed to stay as one group for a significant amount of time.


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## CountDC (23 Jul 2015)

Family and pension - quite simply if I did not have children to take care of I would be gone.  Because I do have others to take care of I stick around for the money and increase in pension I will have when I do release.  The huge delay in pension payments don't help either.  Out right ridiculous that people should have to wait so long to receive it.  If I could have walked out the door and recieved payments within 2 months I may have just done it when told I wasnt getting posted this year. 

In another year hopefully I will be posted, maybe it will change my mind and the family will change thiers.  Sometimes it is the posting you have that kills your morale and motivation to stay.  I went from a high of "sticking around til 60, here is my CRA60 opt in form" to slightly over a year later "CM when am I posted" and then 2 more years later "I should retire and get away from this crap.  Wish I hadn't elected CRA60" when the posting forecasted doesn't happen.


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## FortYorkRifleman (23 Jul 2015)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Family and pension - quite simply if I did not have children to take care of I would be gone.  Because I do have others to take care of I stick around for the money and increase in pension I will have when I do release.  The huge delay in pension payments don't help either.  Out right ridiculous that people should have to wait so long to receive it.  If I could have walked out the door and recieved payments within 2 months I may have just done it when told I wasnt getting posted this year.
> 
> In another year hopefully I will be posted, maybe it will change my mind and the family will change thiers.  Sometimes it is the posting you have that kills your morale and motivation to stay.  I went from a high of "sticking around til 60, here is my CRA60 opt in form" to slightly over a year later "CM when am I posted" and then 2 more years later "I should retire and get away from this crap.  Wish I hadn't elected CRA60" when the posting forecasted doesn't happen.



When you say postings do you mean to a base or mission? I'm curious about whether being from a big city and then being sent to a base like Shilo or Gagetown makes a soldier's time in tougher. For myself, being from Toronto, I'd like to be sent to Edmonton but I'm also prepared for places like Shilo or even Petawawa which is a small town. I don't drive so given CFB Edmonton's location it's ideal for me. Not that I have a choice in the matter but still...


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## CountDC (23 Jul 2015)

Postings in general - it may be the base, mission, unit, CofC, people or the general local area and events that have occurred or even a combination.  The person that replaces me here may have a great time, partly due to what I have gone through and the changes made or in process, along with staff changes that have occurred.  For me it is a matter of too little too late that have made me and my family bitter to this posting and simply want out of here at just about any cost.  This has been our worst posting though and prior ones we did enjoy, in fact we would happily go back to the one I gave away to come here.

I still believe the military is a great career for people and have no problem recommending it.  I also tell them they can expect at least one bad posting and hopefully it will be at the beginning so they can get it done and over with.  Unfortunately mine ended up at the wrong end when retirement starts to look good.

I drive but do not have a vehicle - feet and bicycle work great for short trips, buses or taxis for long ones or loads.  If needed rental cars do the job.

Choice is not always a good thing with postings - I chose this one  :crybaby:.


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## RMJOE (23 Jul 2015)

I'm in the process of joining right now and I have some friends in 17 Wing. I am 34 and have been in the private sector since grade 7. Starting in the construction field at about the age of 22 and starting HVAC at the age of 27. With my experience in the private sector  work is all go go go getting thing's done yesterday. I am great at what I do so I stay and complete the work even if the day is done. What I have noticed is the private sector has little or no mentoring, causing a large amount of untrained worker's. I have taken it upon myself to train people that I have worked with, to the extent where they have said no one has taught me this much since I have finished high school. The private sector is unreliable and insecure with only a moments notice your career can be done business owners care most about the quick money not the money that lasts.


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## Pronto215 (23 Jul 2015)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> As pointed out in previous posts; it will vary from Trade to Trade, but the "Nine to Five" mentality is lesser in the Cbt Arms than in the "Specialist" Trades.   Another affect that sometimes hurts units is the attitudes of the Chain of Command, but this can be cyclical as people are posted in and out.  Your strongest bonds that you will likely develop will be with those whom you begin your CAF career with and progress with you through Basic and Trades training.



I am at an infantry unit and have been for the last five years and saw 3 different CO's walk through the door. Our unit is lucky to have a platoon sized company at the moment. I would like to say it has everything to do with the no mission thing but sadly its not. Most of the time its injuries coupled with injury stigma. Its funny I asked to go to the unit I was at because of one of my deployments I did. Guys were amazing on tour, would do anything for you. Those guys have since left the military, OT'd and/or passed away. The one thing I did noticed is that the unit was very focused on individual competitions like ironman/mountain man/ bushman, and It was said to see a guy come in first place without his partner who was medevaced to the hospital and the member went crossed the line and called the guy weak to his OC and CSM.


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## George Wallace (23 Jul 2015)

Pronto215 said:
			
		

> ........ and It was said to see a guy come in first place without his partner who was medevaced to the hospital and the member went crossed the line and called the guy weak to his OC and CSM.



That sucks, ........and is not a sign of a good command team.  I think we are wandering off the "camaraderie" aspect now and into the "Esprit d'corps" or morale factors of what units go through, being affected by deployments, taskings, too many courses or lack of, good or bad command teams, etc. that all affect the overall morale of a unit.  Usually it is something that is changed with the posting in and posting out of command teams and other personnel.


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## Pronto215 (23 Jul 2015)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> That sucks, ........and is not a sign of a good command team.  I think we are wandering off the "camaraderie" aspect now and into the "Esprit d'corps" or morale factors of what units go through, being affected by deployments, taskings, too many courses or lack of, good or bad command teams, etc. that all affect the overall morale of a unit.  Usually it is something that is changed with the posting in and posting out of command teams and other personnel.



Well we did get a new CO who has a lot of promise and seems to really care about the unit albeit he's only been there a month he presents himself well amongst the troops and ncos that the last two were not fond of.


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## ballz (23 Jul 2015)

Harrigan said:
			
		

> There haven't been many negative responses to this question yet, which is good to see.  Of course, those of us who frequent this site no doubt do so because we have fond attachment to the CAF.  If we didn't, we likely would not be on this site.



I refrained from answering the original question with "22 months of obligatory service" as I am trying not to be that perpetually negative person for the remaining 22 months hahaha.

But today was the kind of day that makes me sad to know I will be leaving, and is probably why I am finally posting in this thread. Someone of a higher rank and lower IQ with a brilliantly stupid idea tosses a shitbomb in the room that we have to sort out, skipped lunch and worked until 1900 (for the fourth time this week), closed the doors and worked together until we had something and left work today feeling absolutely drained but accomplished. More than that, it feels good to know you've got other people to your left and right that will stay until 1900 because they also refuse to fail when other people are relying on them.

However, these days have been overshadowed by a lot of other days over the last 2.5 years, and right now I've started executing an exit plan to release as soon as I can without owing money back to the CAF.


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## AKa (27 Jul 2015)

I joined the military for the university education and secure job upon graduation.  I never expected to be in for the long haul.

I stayed in for the deployments and other opportunities to travel, rewarding and meaningful employment, and the priviledge of working with incredible people at all rank levels.  I worked for senior and general officers who awed and inspired me with their intelligence, humour, compassion, and common sense.

And now, at 30 years of service, I have less authority and responsibility than I did as an Lt.  I still work with some great people but I am losing faith in the leadership.  It seems that CYA is more important than morale.  

I've served through tough times in the CAF, and I'm not sure I'm ready to slog through another.  I still haven't maxed out my pension but if I find the right opportunity, I'm jumping.


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## FortYorkRifleman (27 Jul 2015)

I like to think, being 28 years old, I'll retire with the military knowing that I've worked and reached my potential in my field as a civilian. I see the CAF as a challenge in that it'll be a radical lifestyle change that'll force me to be at the top of my game if I want to reach as high as I can with regards to rank, courses and a sense of accomplishment. A lot of what's been said here in regards to leadership or lack thereof, changes in morale and camaraderie etc mirror what I've experienced on my own here in the civilian world. What I learned is to make my time, my service my own, and not someone else's. 

I can name ten reasons why I want to join but there's that unknown thing in me that makes me want this more than anything else and I hope that doesn't die.


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## PMedMoe (28 Jul 2015)

Much like CountDC and ballz, I pretty much reached the end of my enjoyment when I stopped doing my actual job.  I release in October of this year (last work day is mid-September).

I have enjoyed many years with great friends and unique experiences.  But at some point (for me anyway), my well-being had to come first and to hell with the CF.  It didn't help that our trade is a bit f*cked up and the "powers that be" have kind of screwed a few of us to the point of release.

Guess I was just lucky to have enough time in to be able to retire while I'm still young enough to enjoy it.   :nod:


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## WeatherBird (31 Jan 2016)

WeatherdoG said:
			
		

> Like a lot of people one of my main reasons for staying is the pay, benefits and stability. The extra part that keeps me from looking elsewhere for those things is the adventure and comradery. In my 14 years I have stood on the plains of Afghanistan where Alexander the Great marched his armies east, and where the Kipling wrote of going to you "to your Gawd like a soldier". I have sailed most of the way around the world, and spent days drifting without power after a major fire in the North Pacific. I also did those things with some of the finest people I know, and would gladly go back and do them all again with those same people.
> 
> That said, when I reach my 20 it may be time to find a new adventure.



Weather Dog, you are one good dog, if you had such life you would not feel good spending the rest of your career fixed in all the same office day after day, month after month, year after year. Also since the man exist thousands of years it has been a warrior also aside from the other things and this makes you feel a real man - the woman sits at home watch after the kids and house, you go outside to protect the village and bring a peace of meat on the table and she cooks it and the life is good


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## TCM621 (31 Jan 2016)

If you had asked me 5 years ago, I would said I was a lifer, maybe even 2 years ago. Now I am contemplating an exit plan.  I am now approaching 20 years combined service but due to some of it being reserve I have a few more years until the end of my current contract.  I have been in the military my entire adult life and some of my teenage life; my last full time job was high school. I don't know anything else. With that said, if my contract was up tomorrow,  I would probably walk. 

Having joined I the 90s, I am seeing a lot of parallels today.  We are being asked to do more with less but, unlike the 90s where we had a force reduction plan and reasonably new gear, we are slowly hemorrhaging people and resources while our leadership (military and political)  pretends everything is great. 

I have a few years left and I am optimistic things can get better. I think partly we need to take back control from treasury board. It feels like treasury board runs the military, even little things. We need leadership who public acknowledges there is a problem. And there are some trade and branch specific stuff that needs to improve. All or some of this could happen on the next five years and if you ask me then I might confidently claim lifer status again.


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## Pusser (1 Feb 2016)

Treasury Board actually runs the country, not just the military.  It always has.  Our government is set up that way and always has been.  A simple fact of life is that they who control the purse strings, pretty much control everything.

Having said this, I refuse to think that Treasury Board is a bunch of miserly ogres who lie awake at night dreaming up ways to screw us over.  They do, however, have competing demands placed upon them and there simply isn't enough money to satisfy everyone's desires.  I also think that they are not necessarily getting all the information they should before making decisions.  And responsibility for that lies at a far lower level...


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