# Military veteran charged following incident at Wainwright



## Jarnhamar (7 Feb 2014)

http://globalnews.ca/news/1133804/military-veteran-arrested-at-wainwright-base-after-alleged-threat/

I'm not sure why global news needs to add the word "veteran" in there. What is it, anyone with over 5 years in uniform is considered a vet?  Oh wait, I DO know why  :nod:



> EDMONTON – A former member of the Canadian Forces has been charged. He was arrested on the base in Wainwright, Alberta after allegedly posting a threat on a social media site.
> Related Stories
> 
> Dennis Charlong  who’s in his 40s, was charged on Friday with the five offences, including: possession of a weapon for dangerous purpose, carrying a concealed weapon, possession of a prohibited or restricted firearm with ammunition, uttering threats, and possession of property obtained by crime.



_- mod edit of title for better fit -_


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## George Wallace (7 Feb 2014)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I'm not sure why global news needs to add the word "veteran" in there. What is it, anyone with over 5 years in uniform is considered a vet?  Oh wait, I DO know why  :nod:



SO?  What is a Veteran?  Have you been following that topic at all?


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## Fishbone Jones (7 Feb 2014)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> SO?  What is a Veteran?  Have you been following that topic at all?



I think we've heard enough "What is a Veteran" stuff. Let's keep to the thread subject shall we?

---Staff---


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## Jarnhamar (7 Feb 2014)

Bad wording on my part. I wasn't intending to be critical of CF members time in or deployments (what's a veteran debate) but felt that Global was including the word Veteran to further sensationalize the story because it's been in the media so much.

In any case I'm glad they caught this guy before he did anything. It's a good example of why we shouldn't ignore even half-hearted threats.


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## Towards_the_gap (7 Feb 2014)

Has activity on Cpl Bloggin's facebook page suddenly dropped off?


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## TCBF (9 Feb 2014)

- You will notice a release stated that he was never deployed out of the country. I think we will see that more often, as the gummint is tired of its opponents beating them over the head with every incident and blaming it all on our fling in what I like to call "The Sandbox Of Sorrow."

- Fact is, in my experience, most of my soldiers getting 'help' didn't have any ribbons on their chests at all. Perhaps the next time someone wants to accuse DND of downloading our problems to the provincial heath care systems, we might cordially point out that a lot of those problems were uploaded to us to start with.


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## Towards_the_gap (9 Feb 2014)

Indeed... as an example, I recall seeing one of our particular problem children (chronic absenteeism, drugs/alcohol offences), receiving a large envelope from VAC just before he released. In summary, he tried to claim his personality disorder was brought about by his 3 years service with nil tours.
And this was not an isolated case.


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## The Bread Guy (9 Feb 2014)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I'm not sure why global news needs to add the word "veteran" in there.


Because the CF said he used to be in:


> The Canadian Forces National Investigation Service (CFNIS) charged *a former member of the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF)* with five weapon-related and other offences on February 6, 2014, in relation to an incident that occurred at 3rd Canadian Division Support Detachment Wainwright on February 5, 2014 .....


Also ....
*A reminder:  Under Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms, "any person charged with an offence has the right .... to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal"*


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## Jarnhamar (9 Feb 2014)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Because//the CF said he used to be in



Yes it would appear I took it out of context. I've since washed my beret by accident (subconsciously giving myself a penance no doubt) so the universe is back in balance.


I wonder what kind of troubles he ran into with his release.


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## Ostrozac (9 Feb 2014)

Interesting that NIS laid the charges, rather than the RCMP, because if the member's been released than he would not still be subject to the code of service discipline. I suppose that in theory any peace officer in Canada can lay charges against any offender, but investigating criminal code offences by civilians isn't really supposed to be a core NIS function.


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## PuckChaser (9 Feb 2014)

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> Interesting that NIS laid the charges, rather than the RCMP, because if the member's been released than he would not still be subject to the code of service discipline. I suppose that in theory any peace officer in Canada can lay charges against any offender, but investigating criminal code offences by civilians isn't really supposed to be a core NIS function.



Anyone on DND property is subject to CSD. It was an alleged criminal act on DND property, ergo NIS got involved and ran with it.


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## Ostrozac (9 Feb 2014)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Anyone on DND property is subject to CSD. It was an alleged criminal act on DND property, ergo NIS got involved and ran with it.



I'm not seeing that in the NDA. I'm seeing that every reservist on DND property is subject to CSD, but not every civilian on DND property.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/n-5/page-20.html#docCont


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## Eye In The Sky (9 Feb 2014)

QR & O ref:

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qro-orf/vol-02/chapter-chapitre-102-eng.asp


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## George Wallace (9 Feb 2014)

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> I'm not seeing that in the NDA. I'm seeing that every reservist on DND property is subject to CSD, but not every civilian on DND property.
> 
> http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/n-5/page-20.html#docCont



Next time you are near a Defence Establishment, please read the Warning Signs:  "Anyone is subject to search......"


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## Bruce Monkhouse (9 Feb 2014)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Next time you are near a Defence Establishment, please read the Warning Signs:  "Anyone is subject to search......"


We have all those signs at every jail in Ontario but I'm not laying the charges should I nail someone......


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## George Wallace (9 Feb 2014)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> We have all those signs at every jail in Ontario but I'm not laying the charges should I nail someone......



Still; the Warning is there, and you could, I am sure, if it were necessary.


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## Jarnhamar (9 Feb 2014)

I would image there is a difference between civilians and military alike being subject to search on DND property and a civilian falling under the NDA itself.


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## JesseWZ (9 Feb 2014)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I would image there is a difference between civilians and military alike being subject to search on DND property and a civilian falling under the NDA itself.



The NDA is a Federal Law, however the ISDR's and DCAARs (annexed to the NDA) are intended for two different types of persons. One is for persons subject to _the Code_ and the other for persons not subject. Both state anyone entering or exiting a Controlled Access Area (Defense Establishment) is subject to search. The Code of Service Discipline and the NDA are two different but similar beasts. _The Act_ states who is subject to_ the Code,_ but all persons are subject to the _Act._


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## Eye In The Sky (9 Feb 2014)

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> Interesting that NIS laid the charges, rather than the RCMP, because if the member's been released than he would not still be subject to the code of service discipline. I suppose that in theory any peace officer in Canada can lay charges against any offender, but investigating criminal code offences by civilians isn't really supposed to be a core NIS function.



IIRC, a ret'd mbr is still accountable under the CSD for offences that happened while he/she was serving.


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## brihard (9 Feb 2014)

In some of the work I'm doing with vets I've spoken with this guy a few times over the last couple of months. He is released, and there were issues surrounding that. Without going into detail that's not mine to share, he has had some real troubles adjusting. I'm by no means attempting to minimize or justify anything that happened there last week. Knowing the guy a bit, though, there's quite a bit underlying all of this. I hope you guys can take that for what it's worth. He will face the consequences of what has happened. I also hope he gets the help that he badly needs. He's got a family who's having to go through this as well and that we're trying to support. It's a bad situation and a real kick in the nuts for everyone involved.


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## Jarnhamar (9 Feb 2014)

Whoever writes those incessant CF wide emails should put out a simple Mental health related email something like this;


What do you feel are the 3 biggest issues causing mental health issues with CF members?
What are 3 biggest issues you're facing which cause you stress in the CF?


Instead of paying some university thousands of dollars to do a study just task someone/some members (hey someone from JPSU) with compiling the responses and come up with a fancy graph.


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## brihard (9 Feb 2014)

There's some merit to that. While the plural of 'anecdote' is never 'data', it's not necessary to achieve scientific degrees of academic rigour in order to shape and evolve _attitudes_.

With that same anecdotes =/= data caveat, _anecdotally_ in my work with Send Up The Count I and the others I work with talk with a lot of people about a lot of issues. Some of the major ones that come up frequently, in no specific order:

1. Pre release worries. Jobs in particular, but also continuity of medical care and treatment. When a release is going to be medical in nature these concerns are amplified.

2. "Sidelining" by virtue of injury. Guys who suffer injuries in training/operations and who abruptly find a good career off the rails. If it's anything but a 'clean, quick heal' and back into the section, a lot of guys feel that they are suddenly cut out of feeling like real soldiers if an injury results in PCAT or long TCAT.

3. A massive stigma around mental health. Normal mental health issues - the sort of anxiety, depress, etc that can hit absolutely anybody - simply aren't accepted as normal, recoverable things. As soon as someone is dealing with any mental health issue they may as well have leprosy- people automatically think worst case and assume buddy's on his way out. This is exacerbated by leadership who will say the official Right Things To Say, but then immediately assume a locker room mentality when behind closed doors with the rest of the leadership- Cpl so-and-so, who's been a solid soldier for years and tours, is suddenly a weak sack of crap because something misfired cognitively and he needs to get the right help to work through it. Consequently, guys aren't seeking the early interventions that have the best chance of recovery. We've got guys admitting past suicide attempts to us that nobody ever heard of, and they still have active symptoms of anxiety and depression that they're afraid to get help for. This is I think the single most destructive factor from which most others stem.

4. A belief that mental health overwhelmingly carries a negative prognosis. As soon as you admit mental health issues, you're hooped. 

5. Addictions. Holy frig- alcohol... Self-medication with alcohol turns routine, treatable depression/anxiety into suicide attempts, domestic assaults, and DUIs. I see this in my civilian employment too.

6. Normal life stressors that the military manages to make worse. Things like families separated by postings, and then buddy's plans to go see the family for daughter's birthday get completely screwed up because he catches extras over the weekend for forgetting a piece of kit on exercise. A lot of arbitrary uses of power unique to the military have considerable unanticipated effects on the family relationships whose healthy maintenance is key to a person maintaining life balance when the uniform comes off. Lots of other stuff- grief for loss, things like that - are buried because of the 'either you're 'well' and you soldier on, or you're 'unwell' and therefore junk' thing that we have going. Yes, this is a similar stigma to outside the military, absolutely. I personally think that for all the traumatic experiences the military has, we should be seeking to _exceed_ the degree to which the rest of society deals positively with people who are experiencing and hoping to recover from these issues.

I am thoroughly convinced that leadership attitudes at the levels directly affecting the troops need to change to recognize mental health issues as being fundamentally little different from injuries - they can happen to anyone, they don't speak to a person's worth as a soldier or an individual, and there should be an expectation of recovery, promotion thereof, and continued inclusion of the person in the team as much as possible so they don't feel cut out. Leadership who say one thing in public and are known to say another behind closed doors are toxic.

This does not mean that there is a solution to every case and that every person will be able to get better. Some people get sick or injured in ways that unavoidably lead to release. Some people have enough go wrong in their heads that ugly things happen and nothing could really have been done to forsee it. But there's a delta right now between 'what is' and 'what could be'. A broad one. As TCCC has helped us minimize preventable battlefield deaths by equipping just about everyone with core lifesaving skills, there are easily teachable core attitudes that will save us great issues steming form mental health.

That's just my two cents as a layperson who's become fairly involved with this.


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## OldSolduer (9 Feb 2014)

Have any of you seen The Road to Mental Readiness training?

When I mentioned it to my peer group most gave me the deer in the headlights look.


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## JesseWZ (9 Feb 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> IIRC, a ret'd mbr is still accountable under the CSD for offences that happened while he/she was serving.



Yep.


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## brihard (9 Feb 2014)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Have any of you seen The Road to Mental Readiness training?
> 
> When I mentioned it to my peer group most gave me the deer in the headlights look.



I did a two day R2MR in Kingston with a crew from Joint Speakers Bureau. It was excellent training, but deals more with prevention and resilience. I also think the CF should be offering the Mental Health First Aid that the Canadian Mental Health Association runs.


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## OldSolduer (9 Feb 2014)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I did a two day R2MR in Kingston with a crew from Joint Speakers Bureau. It was excellent training, but deals more with prevention and resilience. I also think the CF should be offering the Mental Health First Aid that the Canadian Mental Health Association runs.



Agreed, but prevention is key. Much like you can train your body you can also train the mind.


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## Cansky (9 Feb 2014)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I did a two day R2MR in Kingston with a crew from Joint Speakers Bureau. It was excellent training, but deals more with prevention and resilience. I also think the CF should be offering the Mental Health First Aid that the Canadian Mental Health Association runs.




Yes R2MR is good training and as a Physician Assistant I agree that Mental Health First Aid should be taught too.  However getting anyone to attend these course will be very difficult.  Heck we can't get most folks to do annual IBTS training every year or First aid on a regular basis.  R2MR is run by the PSP staff and as far as I know was suppose to be done annual by all CF members.


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## Jarnhamar (9 Feb 2014)

Kirsten Luomala said:
			
		

> Yes R2MR is good training and as a Physician Assistant I agree that Mental Health First Aid should be taught too.  However getting anyone to attend these course will be very difficult.  Heck we can't get most folks to do annual IBTS training every year or First aid on a regular basis.  R2MR is run by the PSP staff and as far as I know was suppose to be done annual by all CF members.



I've did a couple PSP workshops/courses on that stuff.

The yearly IBTS training isn't very effective.   The last one I went to it was a weirdo socially awkward PSP lady giving a company + the brief. One of her speeches was about family violence where she told us all men are inherently abusive  :
The yearly briefs are done right before leave with a check in the box atmosphere. No one wanted to be there and no one cared.

The courses were marginally better but it seemed like 60%-70% of the people attending where there just to vent about themselves and all the issues they were going through, I've never been to an AA meeting but I can imagine that's what one would feel like.


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## daftandbarmy (10 Feb 2014)

Kirsten Luomala said:
			
		

> Yes R2MR is good training and as a Physician Assistant I agree that Mental Health First Aid should be taught too.  However getting anyone to attend these course will be very difficult.  Heck we can't get most folks to do annual IBTS training every year or First aid on a regular basis.  R2MR is run by the PSP staff and as far as I know was suppose to be done annual by all CF members.



Unfortunately, once the shooting stops the profile of these types of issues plummets with both the civilian and military communities. Sassoon pegged it .... 

Suicide in the trenches:

I knew a simple soldier boy
Who grinned at life in empty joy,
Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
And whistled early with the lark.

In winter trenches, cowed and glum
With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
He put a bullet through his brain.
No one spoke of him again.

You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
Sneak home and pray you'll never know
The hell where youth and laughter go.

― Siegfried Sassoon, The War Poems

http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~keith/poems/suicide.html


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## OldSolduer (10 Feb 2014)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> The yearly briefs are done right before leave with a check in the box atmosphere. No one wanted to be there and no one cared.



That is completely the wrong time to do them. It's only because leadership, including me, haven't thought this through and separated the wheat and the chaff. 

The serious stuff - mental health etc, gets lumped into one day with the annual security brief, thou shall not use alcohol too much brief, plus the briefing from the cleaners etc. It's more convenient that way - easier to book classrooms etc.


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