# Field Operation Allowance



## geofftheref (14 Jun 2002)

How much is it ?


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## Sharpey (14 Jun 2002)

Something like $12.50 a day, from what I remember.


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## goldwing (16 Feb 2005)

http://hr.dwan.dnd.ca/dgcb/dppd/allowance/engraph/allowtab_e.asp?sidesection=3&sidecat=30

FIELD OPERATIONS DAILY RATES  

1 APR 97 12.68 
1 OCT 97 12.77 
1 APR 98 13.26 
1 APR 99 14.17 
1 OCT 99   14.59  
1 APR 00  15.00  
1 APR 01  15.37  
1 APR 02  16.01  
1 APR 03  16.41


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## George Wallace (16 Feb 2005)

Ain't much.  Then after taxes, you can buy a "coke" perhaps.......


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## Fishbone Jones (16 Feb 2005)

George,

I don't think our FOA is taxed. TD yes, but not FOA. Any pay clerks out there?


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## Aerobicrunner (16 Feb 2005)

FOA is taxed...TD is not.


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## NCRCrow (16 Feb 2005)

I heard a rumour,about pulling the troops out of the field within an hour of the FOA min, therefore not having to pay FOA.

Luckily, we get sea pay regardless. (and they have been trying to do Jedi mind tricks on us for years)

I think if you are posted to a desig Field Unit, the same should apply.


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## MJP (16 Feb 2005)

NCRCrow said:
			
		

> I think if you are posted to a desig Field Unit, the same should apply.



We have been saying the same for years....


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## Fishbone Jones (16 Feb 2005)

Aerobicrunner said:
			
		

> FOA is taxed...TD is not.



Knew it was one of them. Shows how much attention I give to my pay. :


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## NCRCrow (16 Feb 2005)

whats keeping the Brass from making it so? 

I know $$$$$

but are they afraid of every unit saying they are "Field".........

They wanted to cut sea pay, there would be no navy if they did (quote me on that)


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## MJP (17 Feb 2005)

NCRCrow said:
			
		

> whats keeping the Brass from making it so?
> 
> I know $$$$$



Well yea money would be an issue.  I know they have looked at it before as twice in the last 3-4 years we have had people accompany us in the field to see our living conditions.  Talking to them one of the things they were assessing was the field pay all the time.

I think it's a great idea (not just because I'd get more money).  I'd like to think that if your one of those MIR Commandoes or you always seem to be on T-Cat or P-Cat you wouldn't receive it. 


 But that is a pipe dream, some poor disadvantage sap will cry to his MP and he'll end up getting it while working half days at the BN canteen.  arrrrr.....must control..... hatred of Bn canteen...... 



> but are they afraid of every unit saying they are "Field".........



Hmmm I can see where you are going with this, interesting dilemma me thinks.


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## George Wallace (17 Feb 2005)

Money is the reason of course.  How many personnel are actually on ship collecting Sea Pay?  Now, how many thousands are in Field Units at this current time - or how many are deployed operationally (a fraction of the total Cbt Units), compared to those on ships?  Quite the expense, eh?

GW


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## Pte. Bloggins (17 Feb 2005)

Another quick question,

when you get FOA, you don't get TD, correct? As in on course for example, you get TD for the time you're there except when you're in the field, then you get FOA. 

Just wanted some clarification.


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## Aerobicrunner (17 Feb 2005)

CBI 205.39 - FIELD OPERATIONS ALLOWANCE 
(1) (Definition) In this instruction, "field operation" means an operation ordered by the Chief of the Defence Staff or a field exercise or training exercise carried out under the authority of National Defence Headquarters or an officer commanding a command, formation, base or unit, in which an officer or non-commissioned member is required to live under field conditions for a period of not less than 24 consecutive hours, but does not include a survey operation.


(2) (Eligibility) Subject to paragraph (3), an officer or non-commissioned member is entitled, when on duty on a field operation away from the permanent facilities normally occupied at the member's base or other unit or element, to  
 (a) $16.41 for each complete 24-hour period of that duty; and

(b) $16.41 for any remaining period of that duty that is of six or more hours duration.  

(3) (Limitations) An officer or non-commissioned member  
(a) is not entitled to Field Operations Allowance when the member is entitled to Joint Task Force 2 Allowance under CBI 205.385 or on adventure training;

(b) is not entitled to Field Operations Allowance when the member is in receipt of Post Differential Allowance under the Military Foreign Service Regulations; or 

(c) *who is on temporary duty and entitled to Field Operation Allowance, is not entitled to incidentals * under paragraph (5) of CBI 209.30 (Travelling Expenses - Conditions and Entitlements) while in receipt of Field Operation Allowance.  
(TB # 830487, effective 1 Apr 03) 

CBI 209.30 - TRAVELLING EXPENSES - CONDITIONS AND ENTITLEMENTS 
(7) (Net period of 24 hours or more) When an officer or non-commissioned member who is on duty away from their base or other unit or element for a net period of 24 hours or more is provided with quarters and is supplied with rations at the place of temporary duty, the member is entitled to the incidental expense allowance, *except if the member  * 
(a) is undergoing training, drill or a course of instruction at a camp temporarily established for that purpose;  
(b) *is receiving Field Operations Allowance under CBI 205.39*; or  
(c) is hospitalized.


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## Pte. Bloggins (17 Feb 2005)

Thank you for the info.


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## Bomber (17 Feb 2005)

Pulling people out of the field is nothing new.  It used to happen in Gagetown in 200.  An ex would start on Monday, go till Tuesday around midnight, end.  But the next ex would start at 5 am on Wednesday.  So you would have slept about an hour in your bed in the shacks for the Tuesday night.


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## JimmyPeeOn (17 Feb 2005)

FOA = about 11.40 after taxes.


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## George Wallace (18 Feb 2005)

JimmyPeOn said:
			
		

> FOA = about 11.40 after taxes.



Yep!   That would be about the price of a Coke up in Pond Inlet.... ;D

GW


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## childs56 (19 Feb 2005)

expect expect and expect. Damn we are never happy are we. money money and more money. when you are deployed to the field or you are at sea or operatinos then you should get paid for it. if you are at your home port or garrison then why get anything extra. Seems to me a total waste of money. All these allowances are their to pay for the hardships encounterd while away from home, and to pay for your enemities as toiletires and calls home. not to supplement your income so that you make a cash crop. I for one would rather see this money paid to memebers only while deployed. at sea or in the field. The abuse of this is terrible with units taking guys out of the field, hours before they are entitled to FOA, if the ship ties up does that mean the Navy doesnt get sea pay their not at sea are they? These benitfts have been for some trade a way to retain members, I for one think that this money would be better spent for such things as bullets and foot wear, uniforms rifle slings better sights etc the list goes on. I do feel however that we shoudl have compensation of a few bucks a week to cover calls home and such. But to be given hudreds of dollars that some get is silly and a huge waste of money resources. I do think that over seas allowences shoudl be kept in place though. One of the guys on my course mentioned that one of his crew mates while deployed complained that because he had so much sea time that his sea pay out grossed his foreign duty allowances and such shoudl not have to loose his sea pay while deployed and such should keep his sea pay. this shows me that this is a wage and not an allowence. the memeber won and kept his sea pay. enough i see it all the the time i am owed this and that instead of i deserve this and that.


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## NCRCrow (19 Feb 2005)

get some more TI, then rant. U sound so amateur.


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## childs56 (19 Feb 2005)

i am sorry i dont think i have to justify my expierance or quals to any one. if you really need to know then feel free to ask other wise shut it . I thought these were open forums and such should not be open to an attack on my service or such. my opinion and no specfic attack on any one in general such as NCRCROW has done grow up.


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## NCRCrow (19 Feb 2005)

Thanks for the career advice. I could really use some!

But it seems ironic, that divers are not in the water 24/7, pilots are not always flying and the jumpers might be home in bed. Lets cut the all the allowances and buy some epaulettes. Gimme me friggin break!!

Guess you were not there for the pay freeze in 93-94 and the effect that it had on the military.

Better equipment agree, but the men/woman volunteers of the CF must be compensated.

Sorry to hurt your feelings.........and yeah I need to grow up.


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## childs56 (19 Feb 2005)

"Guess you were not there for the pay freeze in 93-94 and the effect that it had on the military
Better equipment agree, but the men/woman volunteers of the CF must be compensated."

your right i wasn't in during this time. 
since when were you a volunteer in the military. I would hope that you are a paid professional. I do recall in the reserves we would volunteer our time so as we could actually do our jobs. That included such things as VOLUNTEER pay sheets so that we could carry on with training and stay proficient in classes and such. Not to mention the 200km round trip to my house every day to work these unpaid evenings. this was all volunteer time so as to keep the Troop running as efficient as it could. My self and two others did this during this time frame.  So i really do not need you to preach to me about the tough times and such of yonder years, yes they were tough, but honestly do you expect me to have any sympathy for a person making over $40000 a year now and complaining about not enough money. I do think that maybe the problems is that we have gotten to point where we expect everything and think it is our right to all of these benefits. While they really are privileges. 
Compensated for doing your job how do you figure, now if it is outside of your normal job description then yes of course by all means. Should a sailor get paid over $200 a month for going to sea and doing their job they singed up to do? or the airforce about $200 a month also. These funds in theory could be used else where in our budget instead of a cash crop for members. It is nice to get an extra bundle of money but is it really needed to keep people in. I think not.  Wow the years of experience really shows from your part also, those years of ignorance that has gotten our Military into the situation of where it is now Adas. cash strapped due to the need for more allowances to cover doing your regular job day in and day out. Such things as hazardous duty  and foreign service allowances should be kept in my opinion. I just hope that some one wakes up and realizes all these extras are really not needed . Just give us more training and cover our actual costs of TD and such and that should be enough. 

I am still laughing over the member of the CF are VOLUNTEERS.  VOLUNTEER un paid, Professional paid to do their skill set at a journey mans level."I am a volunteer humanitarian worker then cause i went to Bosnia and handed out aid foreign aid to the needy people " I guess that every working person is a volunteer as they all volunteered to work in their present job,"hey everyone i am a humanitarian VOLUNTEER as i handed out aid to the needy people of Bosnia" I am still laughing. Every one reading this i am sorry but i Just think it is funny to be called a volunteer as a Member of the Regular Force. enough of my ranting, some people make me laugh and this is one person that does. I will apologize for my disrespect to you NCRCROW but please don't tell me about hard times and deserving of things. It is a privilege to, not a right to be a member of the Canadian  Forces. if members could remember this then maybe things would be different.


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## Inch (20 Feb 2005)

CTD, first thing, try spell check, punctuation and paragraphs, it makes for easier reading.

Just because you're a pilot doesn't mean you get aircrew allowance. You have to be employed in a flying postion, which doesn't always happen. Same goes for sea duty allowance, if you're not employed in a sea going position, you don't get it. When I get back to my Sqn following my Sea King conversion course, I'll get sea pay in addition to the aircrew allowance that I already get. I'm still not sure that $500 a month is enough to compensate me for flying a 40 year old helo over 2 degree water from a 30 year old destroyer in the North Atlantic, but it was my choice to come here. Would I have gone elsewhere if I didn't get those allowances, I can't say for sure.

In effect, allowances such as sea pay, aircrew, paratroop, etc are hazardous duty pay, which you said you're not against. We are exposed to hazardous situations everytime we step foot in an aircraft or onboard a ship. Can you say the same for other trades that don't receive allowances?

As for this:


> These funds in theory could be used else where in our budget instead of a cash crop for members. It is nice to get an extra bundle of money but is it really needed to keep people in. I think not.



I can't believe how wrong you are, it absolutely is necessary to keep people in. I have no idea why you would think otherwise, it's a little bit more money out of the government's pocket in exchange for keeping pilots that cost $1 million to train, a fair trade if you ask me. The same goes for other trades.

Finally, yes we are volunteers, we're not conscripts or draftees, we joined voluntarily, end of story.

From Websters: 

Main Entry: 1vol ·un ·teer 
Pronunciation: "vä-l&n-'tir
Function: noun
Etymology: obsolete French voluntaire (now volontaire), from voluntaire, adjective, voluntary, from Latin voluntarius
1 : a person who voluntarily undertakes or expresses a willingness to undertake a service: as a : one who enters into military service voluntarily  b (1) : one who renders a service or takes part in a transaction while having no legal concern or interest (2) : one who receives a conveyance or transfer of property without giving valuable consideration


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## Ex-Dragoon (20 Feb 2005)

Well said Inch and NCR I could not agree more.


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## Fishbone Jones (22 Feb 2005)

CTD,

I admire your sense of dedication, professionalism and your general joie de vivre. Please forward your memo to DPersAdmin telling them what a dedicated and staunch individual you are. Please also tell them that you no longer deserve to be compensated for the time you serve. Simply that you love the job.

People a lot higher and smarter than you determine what we get paid for. We have fallen behind our Public counterparts for too long. Read my profile and tell me I'm not entitled to everything this gov't deems to give me.

Unlike NCRCrow, I have the TI, and I'll tell you right now, your talking through your ass. Quit blowing smoke up mine.


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## NCRCrow (22 Feb 2005)

Hey Reeceguy,

I am starting my third row. Do not question my TI or experience.   And 12 years sea time with over 18 hard points (FSP) with all three elements.

Take my sea pay and allowances away and FSP...no way!!!

NCR Crow

did I mention my diving allowances??   

Sea Pay+Spec Pay+Dive Pay+PLD=boy it all adds up


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## Fishbone Jones (22 Feb 2005)

NCR Crow,

That wasn't a dig at you. However, if you'd bother to fill in your profile and showed more than Navy League Cadets as your experience, these things wouldn't happen now would they? Don't get all pissy when someone has to guess what your about because you didn't fill in the blanks. The profile is there for a reason.


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## NCRCrow (22 Feb 2005)

Roger that............agree.........I thought Navy League Cadets would get a chuckle.

These people write the craziest sh*t in the forums. 

Like lets cancel allowances, must be a Liberal stool-ie.

No extra allowance for diving in Halifax harbour in Jan. Maybe CTD should get a wetsuit on and.........
That's fair!!


CTD...................C'mon in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The water is warm and yeah that's want u think it is!!


SH*T!!!


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## childs56 (22 Feb 2005)

been to Halifax harbour thanks but no.


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## ZipperHead (22 Feb 2005)

I think CTD has a case of "the arrogance of youth". 

I distinctly remember being astounded when informed that you actually get paid to be in the army. It was in my 2nd year at cadet camp, and found out how much the staff cadets got. As a cadet I made $40 per week, and loved it. I found out the staff cadets got paid as a Pte. To me, that was like winning the lottery (and I lived that decadent life as a staff cadet for 2 summers).

Now, it's 20-odd years later, and sometimes I wonder where that youthful idealism went.... I doubt CTD has a mortgage, 3 kids, loans, 2 vehicles, etc. I somehow doubt he was done more the 5 days a row in the field, eating out of a freezing field kitchen, or in a trench, sucking in the hexamine. Or been at sea for 6 months at a go, or flown in a death-trap of an aircraft. But he sure is keen, though.....

One of the things that has shown me how silly it has gotten in the military is the fact that TD is tax-exempt, and field pay isn't. We did an ex in Suffield, and we had guys living in the shacks on the base while we were in 5 man arctic tents. Guess who got paid more in allowances. The guys in the shacks (TD). Just shows that they really aren't concerned about saving money, just giving extra allowances to all the jam-tarts who go on TD all the time. A (weak) justification that I heard for this disparity is that it costs more to live on TD (ie hotel porn, shooters at T&A bar) than it does to be in the field. My buddy who had a canteen bill from RV '92 in excess of $1000 (after field pay for 5 weeks) would disagree, though....

I don't think throwing money at people makes things better. I personally feel that the money is too good, and a lot of deadwood that would have gotten out years ago, have stayed in, because there is no way they would make this kind of money in a civvy job (with the work ethic and smarts they have). 

Anyway, hopefully none of the bean-counters in the employ of NDHQ read any of CTD's posts ref this subject, as I'm sure we will all have to pay back all the allowances we have received over the years. Maybe they'll buy the PM a few new planes. The last 2 he bought must have full ashtrays by now.......

Al


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## childs56 (23 Feb 2005)

I will state a rebuttal to this. As i stated before it is your choice to have kids, if it was a burden financially to have them maybe the proper methods to control this should have been used. This is not to insult you but we cant all own the huge house and a few cars and all the luxury's we would like and support a big family. One thing that really gets me is how a married person thinks they are above a single person. We are all soldiers, sailors and Airmen, we all have the same duty to do and to rule one over another is a very sad state that our military has come to. No i do not own a house, sorry never thought about being in debt that much, I do own a new truck which i figure at this time off sets any mortgage that most have. I don't have any kids, i guess this is because i realize i am not in a financial situation in order to support them the way i would see fit. Pte's pay is pretty skimpy these days.(note the sarcasm their). Actually my truck payment makes sure of that. well i hate to break it to you but single young people have loans also. What a thought wow it must be a new thing, who would have thought. Excuse my ignorance but seems to be some of that going around.

More then five days in the field hmmm (does that include camping)? if that is the case it was three months straight. really i have spent a few months in the field it was a place called Bosnia, 6.5 months i think, it consisted of sleeping in a tent at the edge of the range at Biv Delta that was for about 1.5 months, shower once a week maybe, that was for over a month or so. memory fades me. I have never eating out of frozen hayboxes  sorry i worked on the West Coast we did have rations that were rain soaked though.Hmm soup steak.  I did spend a few days in a trench that had water up to my neck, it was cold i tell you, nothing like the West Coast to keep you wet all week long, did i mention after doing that for four days with the reserves i had to go back to my civie job Tuesday morning and work out in the rain all day for the next three weeks. As for the Hexamine well if you were inhaling them i think their might be some issues their, the label said do not inhale fumes or something like that. Those were those square white fuel tabs, yes i remember using those a few times, but that little single burner camp stove worked wonders instead and alot more reliable.(was purchased out of the old pocket) 
I was at sea for three months on the HCMS Huron, and another two week stint aboard the HMCS Saskachewan,(nothing like expending all the ammo aboard, looks real nice does that count? I even have picks to prove it
Well do you consider a Hip(a helicopter) a death trap aircraft, the good old 50 gallon drum inside the cab with the FE flicking his ashes on the fuel on the floor, then butting his cigarette out on the side of the fuel soaked tank. We started to lose power one day and the FE came out and tapped a few lines, needless to say the old engine spooled up again and we remained in the air. I was in a cougar (another helicopter) once and we almost ran into some high tension lines, that was a pretty new hello though. 

Before we judge some one ask, never assume, it can be very deceiving to say the least. My statement originally was that i think that we in the Canadian military are very well paid. We can never put a monetary value on being away from the ones we love dearest, or even more so if one is injured or killed in the line of duty. No money or other retribution can make up for that. We all joined the military knowing full well the responsibility's and the pay that we would receive. And if you didn't then that is ignorance on your part. The fact that our military is in such disreppear has some reflection of it members. I am not blaming this on the troops them selves but more so on the higher leadership that has made it so that they themselves reap the rewards of all the benefits we get. The allowances we receive are their to offset some of the dangers we face and hardships, although i think we can all agree that the soldiers get the short end of the stick on that one. Why is TD not taxable, how many high ranking officers receive TD as opposed to FOA when they go to the "field" yes the truth maybe their.How many more of these leaders are on TD regularly,I am willing to bet a few more then their should be.  All this money adds up as not being in our budgets for actually equipment, instead it is squandered away into some one's pocket. The fact that any significant raise to us means a cut in a social programme some where or a raise in taxes really does not in effect give us a raise. It puts an even bigger burden on the citizen of Canada. We get paid in tax dollars. the more we get the more they take. 

I never wanted to get this discussion out where it went. Obviously a lot of people here feel that they deserve more or can make more else where and that is fine, some can and do. The end result is we are a very well paid and compensated army of the western powers and such should not Say we don't make enough money. That is my opinion and mine only. it is your right to disagree with it but remember. I did not put you where you are today, you did that yourself, and such have to deal with that. A better paying job lurks around every corner, and so does the EI line for 4 months out of the year.


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## PPCLI Guy (23 Feb 2005)

CTD said:
			
		

> Why is TD not taxable, how many high ranking officers receive TD as opposed to FOA when they go to the "field" yes the truth maybe their.How many more of these leaders are on TD regularly,I am willing to bet a few more then their should be.   All this money adds up as not being in our budgets for actually equipment, instead it is squandered away into some one's pocket.



Normally I ignore trolls of all sorts (although that may not have been true of bar trolls in my "in between wives years"), but I have to call you on this one.   

Please PM me with details of "high ranking officers receiving TD instead of FOA".

Dave


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## NCRCrow (23 Feb 2005)

CTD:
you must have been a sea cadet.........onboard Saskatchewan as she decomm"ishd around 91-92 ish, 

u being 27....so u were like 13 years old. 

I love going on TD, to me its a perk. I am just selfish. I guess!

Us married guys envy u single guys.......I have never thought I was above them, maybe the opposite. 

Anyway, I like u CTD, you should put some of your writing efforts to the OPME Program or University.

It might get u promoted.
(not being sarcastic)


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## ZipperHead (23 Feb 2005)

Nice creative writing skills on ya CTD. The part with the trench with water up to your neck was a nice touch. Reminescent of "I had to walk 5 miles, in snow up to my waist, uphill, both ways, to school every morning......". Explain how you could spend any period of time in a trench "up to your neck in water". Where was Biv Delta in Bosnia? I spent a good chunk of my 7 months (yes 7 months) travelling around Bosnia (00-01) and don't recall a Biv Delta (unless that was the camp outside Glamoc referred to as Camp Crusty)..... And if you chose not to shower more than once a week, that sounds more like a personal hygiene issue than a logistical issue......

My point about having children is that idealism is usually replaced rather rapidly by realism (the reality of providing for someone, other than yourself). I waited until I was almost 30 to have children, because I wasn't ready for it emotionally or financially, until then. 

You sound pretty keen, somewhat like I probably did at your age. As you stated, you are entitled to your opinion (as is everybody), but you shouldn't get your panties in a bunch a) when you throw out provocative comments in a public forum and then have people come down on you, and b) post nothing of value in your profile (yes, people actually read those), and then expect people to think that you have the experiences to back up your statements. 

Anyway, you have fun fixing those planes, and try to talk all the flight crew out of their flight pay.......

Al


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## childs56 (23 Feb 2005)

Biv D was the camp outisde of  Glamoc, we lived on the edge of the range for a few months in tents then moved into the old furniture factory in town. Ya we had limited access to showers, once a week or so, we bathed and all but it isnt the same as a shower. As for the trenches, well if you ever get to Nanoose Test range on Vancouver Island and go to where the trenches were, you will see what i mean. And  make sure it has been raining for two weeks straight first you know the down pour that BC is so famous for. and bring a gas powered water pump and lots of gas.  and a set of chest watters. It was actually up around the chest area, some short peopel were up to their necks. 

I will say that i have seen many officers from The HQ regions of Canada show up on those trips to the US or BC while we are on ex to spend more time at the golf course as opposed to the field as they said they were suppose to have been. I mean would it hurt a Colonel or General who is their to see how things are going to actually stay in the field for a 24 hour period. This of course is opposed to the hotel room and resturant food that they eat at. I am not saying all these officers do this but a fair chunk of them that do.


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## dutchie (23 Feb 2005)

CTD said:
			
		

> As for the trenches, well if you ever get to Nanoose Test range on Vancouver Island and go to where the trenches were, you will see what i mean. And   make sure it has been raining for two weeks straight first you know the down pour that BC is so famous for. and bring a gas powered water pump and lots of gas.   and a set of chest watters. It was actually up around the chest area, some short peopel were up to their necks.



Isn't the Nanoose Bay range a Naval weapons Range? If that is the case (CIIW), that 'trench' is the Strait of Georgia. What's that smell? I call bullshit!


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## Britney Spears (23 Feb 2005)

I have no qualms about the pay, but my main beef is with the ridiculous amounts of FOOD that soldiers get in the mess halls.

We are by far the best fed army in the world, compared to our British and American counterparts. I'm almost certain that a pte eats more at the mess halll than he gets paid. All these unlimited seafood and steak nights not only promotes obesity, but projects a bad image of the CF to our allies. Canadian troops stationed in the camps of other nations during deployments I am sick and tired of my collegues whining about their meals when they are served perfectly good food at British and American mess halls.This problem can be solved by simply cutting back our level of service at base mess halls to that of the British model, with fewer, cheaper choices.  That way, we level our soldiers' expectations to the market standard, improve their health ( how many fat Brit squaddies have you ever seen?) and save a bundle of money that can be put to better use.


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## dutchie (23 Feb 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> I have no qualms about the pay, but my main beef is with the ridiculous amounts of FOOD that soldiers get in the mess halls.
> 
> We are by far the best fed army in the world, compared to our British and American counterparts. I'm almost certain that a pte eats more at the mess halll than he gets paid. All these unlimited seafood and steak nights not only promotes obesity, but projects a bad image of the CF to our allies. Canadian troops stationed in the camps of other nations during deployments I am sick and tired of my collegues whining about their meals when they are served perfectly good food at British and American mess halls.This problem can be solved by simply cutting back our level of service at base mess halls to that of the British model, with fewer, cheaper choices.   That way, we level our soldiers' expectations to the market standard, improve their health ( how many fat Brit squaddies have you ever seen?) and save a bundle of money that can be put to better use.



Get rid of the friggin pop machines. What in God's name is a pop machine doing in a NCM Mess Hall in Wainwright? Troops should be drinkning water, juice, or milk. 

And another thing - gravy is not a beverage. I can see having gravy for roast beef, but why do we need to slather fries (another needless fat-pill) with 2 cups of gravy? Do we want our soldiers to look like fat tubby's? 

I don't see the big deal about Steak night, but cut the crappy food, more fresh fruit, and get rid of the junk food altogether, except for those little ice cream cups - they're tasty!


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## ZipperHead (23 Feb 2005)

CTD, I am from the wet coast (Campbell River) and as much as people say that it rains there, it doesn't rain that much. As for Camp Crusty, I wouldn't admit to living in that shithole if I were you. Whomever the leadership is that was running that camp should be shot with a ball of their own shit. It looked like a bunch of blind Sea Cadets set up the modular (no white liners, purlons hanging down from the sides and top, and lacing not done up/broken off). I was embarassed to say that I was a member of the combat arms to see the state that that camp was in, and the furniture factory wasn't much better. Anytime I think that the Armour Corps is idle, I think back to those two places and realize that the Artillery never spent enough time in the field...... Not a tirade against you, but the leadership that allowed you guys to live like that.

As for the complaints about the food: the food is provided, but there are no armed MP's forcing people to eat it. That's like blaming McDonalds for getting somebody fat. There are always healthy choices, but if a fatty wants to eat french fries, gravy, nachos, etc they will get it at the mess hall or at a fast food outlet. Ever been to the old Mad Dog cafe (I might have name wrong....) in Wainwright when it was in the old Canex? The Brits couldn't get enough of the greasy food served there. 

Limiting peoples choices for food in a mess hall isn't the answer. I don't think it should be all fast food style stuff, but for as long as I've been in, there has been something for everyone, and I'm a fairly picky eater, and have never succumbed to starvation. Then again, I got pretty beefy, but I don't blame the mess hall for that. And I don't know if you should compare a thin British squaddie to some our fat-backs: given the choice I bet the thin guy would rather be packing on the beef, but their level of PT is much higher than ours. As well, if they could deep-fry their tea, they would. The deep fryer is working 24/7 in any kitchen the Brits have. And, from what I've experienced, their mess halls aren't going to win any culinary awards any time soon (if the one's I ate in overseas are any indication). So does thin equal healthy? Probably not. Does fat equal healthy? Again, probably not. It's all about choices and balance. I have seen body builder types with 5% body fat eating in mess halls, and guys who sweat just taking a shit, so I would say it is more at the individual level where the responsibility lays. And never trust a skinny cook......

Al


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## dutchie (23 Feb 2005)

I agree with you regarding fitness and body type - looks can be decieving. But my point regarding Mess food was not to excuse the Fatty because we make the crappy food available, and it wasn't to say that we should ban fries and the like from the menu. My point was that healthy food should be the norm. 

There is no need for pop, you can buy it at the canteen/canex/Harvey's if you want it. I just think that if we expect fit, healthy soldiers, then we have to feed them that way. That also entails higher caloric intake, of course, but those calories should be from healthy sources, not starch deep fried in cow blubber and covered in gravy, or coloured sugar wiht fizz.


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## Torlyn (23 Feb 2005)

Caesar said:
			
		

> not starch deep fried in cow blubber and covered in gravy, or coloured sugar wiht fizz.



Wow, am I hungry...  

T


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## childs56 (23 Feb 2005)

Caeasar well if you new anything about a sounding range you would know that they also have a system to check other things such as radios and above surface warfare gear. Needless to say Nanoose Test Range has such a place . They also have a TX site. located about 15min North of Nanaimo on the right hand side of the Island highway as you are heading north. They also have a decommissioned bunker their from the Cold war era. The TX site is also covered with Scottish broom and some swamp area. Keep the BS   going. I guess the bunker is in the water also. And the torpedo storage facitlitys and the dock, and the helo pad their. Forgive my ignorance but If you call BS then please visit the site yourself and see. enough time wasted. 


Allen Luomala   No it doesn't rain that much on the Island, We do get those spouts that it does as you know. Needless to say that was one of the times when we we their for the good old trench training. 

Biv Delta well as it was never factored into the overall plan, Vk decided to give us the left over tentage they had. as it was we had some that was in pretty poor shape. I use to have a garbage bag above my cot to keep the rain off. The mice dangling from the concertina wire was good. Well not really. So as for the   condition of the tents well when 60km an hr wind rips through and sends them into the uncleared area via the concertina wire fence you trend to make do with what you have. I remember setting tents up only to tear them down to move them over 6 inch's. White liners well we just didn't have any. hanging purlons and missing eyelets well you get what you are giving and you make do with it.   the furniture factory was actually set up by the Engineers, yes not the Artillery so any blame for the crappy camp is to be blamed on them. Well actually the chain of command who new the conditions and did nothing about them. The 2nd Lt and Wo that ran the camp when i was their were actually pretty good, and fought for us tooth and nail. That is how we finally got our showers and such. I actually had fun their it was comfy as could be, and not many other could say they had their own helo pad in the back yard, LOL.   I was their Biv Delta   Sept2000 till Nov 2000 then the factory in Nov 2000 then to TSG Jan01 till March 01. Any ways I apologize for the conditions but remember we lived their you just visited. 

Cheers


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## NCRCrow (23 Feb 2005)

Leave the Navy out of this.....we love our 5 meals a day at sea. 

THE COOKS ARE FANTASTIC and accommodating to every body type. 

They will feed u from the line or leave out a couple tins of tuna for you. Just have to ask!

The Canadian Navy feeds us superbly and the Kippers and US just love to crosspol over.

The UK and US close the galley up at sea after supper, and u can buy your snacks from the canteen.

I was on the USS Nimitz for 2 weeks and they had McNimitz for sliders (burgers) and fries ($$$).

Before, everybody starts to call the Navy fat, the Army is also going for seconds at the mess hall.

I can only speak from OP Athena Roto 0, being an augmentee, I was suprised to see some real healthy lads in CADPAT.

Crow


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## ZipperHead (23 Feb 2005)

There's a big difference between making do, and living in squalor. Given the same conditions, any decent Armour Corps (or Infantry, or Engr) soldier would have made the effort to fix what could be fixed. What I saw was people who just didn't know what to do with what they were given. Things like para-cord or wire could have gone a long way to fix the simple things that I saw that were wrong. In the vehicle bays in the furniture factory, there was piles of mud 2 to 3 inches deep, and a broom and/or shovel would have gone a long way to sort that out. Of course, if you like laying in mud while working on your vehicle, that's another issue.....Again, I think that's a case of people not giving a rat's ass where and how they lived. As for moving mod 6 inches, I think almost everybody has been there, and unless it's for a reason (fire regs), it's because somebody (up high) has more time on their hands than they know what to do with.....

Anyway, we've drifted quite a bit out of our lanes (FOA), so I think we can give this issue a rest......

Al


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## Inch (23 Feb 2005)

> I did spend a few days in a trench that had water up to my neck



A few days submerged in water? Did you have immersion suits on? If not how did you avoid hypothermia? For the record, you can get hypothermia on a summer day in 78 degree water if you're in there long enough. Water sucks heat from the body far faster than air does.

I'm with Caesar, I'm calling BS on this one.


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## childs56 (24 Feb 2005)

well a few guys were sent out for hypothermia, others stayed beside their trenches while some had chest waders. In between patrols and some cat napping at the rv  they had time to move around. Well Call BS all you want but we had pumps going all day and night to keep the water down once one trench was pumped another filled and so on and so on. believe what you want and go from their. Well apparently Nanoose doesn't have any land either so i guess i made it all up. Cause you know they only test underwater things their. Good one keep up the good work. And thanks for the expert opinion on cold exhaustion and its effects. real good. any ways it was feb 98 i think the Nanaimo news paper might have a copy of the article saying how the ex went. I guess i should have said spent hours on end in the trench. not thinknig that peopel would understand patrols and such would have gone out. cause it really isn't worth the hassle. well guys cheers


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## NCRCrow (24 Feb 2005)

CTD, u are taking from all angles. 

Maybe we can find some extra allowances with our 13 Billion budget!

Any suggestions?


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## childs56 (24 Feb 2005)

the best thing is after it all a few beers in the mess and some well deserved sleep and it was all good. The nice thing about the FOA is it bought a few beers.  Cheers


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## Inch (24 Feb 2005)

CTD said:
			
		

> And thanks for the expert opinion on cold exhaustion and its effects. real good.



Listen, I don't appreciate your sarcasm when you're obviously talking out your arse and stretching the facts. As I said before, I fly Sea Kings over 2 degree water. I know all about cold water shock and hypothermia associated with submersion. So don't sit there and try to bullshit me about standing up to your neck in water for 4 days, or as you retracted, a few hours between patrols. If you did, then your chain of command needs some serious lessons on how to take care of the welfare of their troops.


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## ZipperHead (24 Feb 2005)

Coming (somewhat) back onto the topic of FOA (I read something in another post, ranting against Bin Rats, and made me remember something...).

I recall, before the days of the unit clerk being able to access your pay, going into the pay office here in Gagetown to sort out some pay problem or another. The Fin Clerk, in their climate controlled office (and they would get stood down, regardless of this fact, when the humidex went too high, but soldiers continued to train in the trg area..... but that's another rant, for another time) said: "I don't know why you guys get field pay: it's a lot of work for us to keep track of it.....". 

Al


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## NCRCrow (25 Feb 2005)

Famous Words- Bin Rat's- You're not entitled! (and there is CTS Body Armour hanging behind them)

Fin Clerk's- We're closed! or the system is down!!!!!

I like the mystery of the changing pay, from 05-20 dollars every month..weird

Admin/Sup makes me batty!! (I will await the retorts)


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## JimmyPeeOn (25 Feb 2005)

We end up getting taxed on it twice anyway.  Once on the stub and once on the T4.  I got almost 800 in field pay this year and i think I saw about 200.  Hardly covers the extra cigarettes.


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## Inch (25 Feb 2005)

JimmyPeOn said:
			
		

> We end up getting taxed on it twice anyway.   Once on the stub and once on the T4.   I got almost 800 in field pay this year and i think I saw about 200.   Hardly covers the extra cigarettes.



I says pardon? How do you figure? If you compare your T4 to your end Dec pay statement, the numbers should be the same (ie taxes paid, CPP, EI, Superannuation is your RPP contribution, etc), I know they are on mine and they have been since I've been in the CF


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## Horse_Soldier (25 Feb 2005)

JimmyPeOn said:
			
		

> We end up getting taxed on it twice anyway.   Once on the stub and once on the T4.   I got almost 800 in field pay this year and i think I saw about 200.   Hardly covers the extra cigarettes.



FOA is dealt the same way as your pay.   You only get taxed once on income.   The tax total on your T4 is the total of all the tax deducted from your pay during the year as noted on your pay stubs for each of the 24 pays in the year.      $200 out of $800? I don't think Canada has reached at 75% marginal tax rate yet.   Go back and check your pay stubs closely.   FOA is taxed at your marginal rate.   If that rate is 29%, FOA will be taxed at 29%.


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## JimmyPeeOn (7 Mar 2005)

Okay, maybe I did'nt convey myself quite clearly enough.  FOA is taxed on your pay, and even though it has already been taxed, the remaining ends up on your T4 under total income, therefore possibly bumping you up in your bracket.


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## Inch (7 Mar 2005)

JimmyPeOn said:
			
		

> Okay, maybe I did'nt convey myself quite clearly enough.   FOA is taxed on your pay, and even though it has already been taxed, the remaining ends up on your T4 under total income, therefore possibly bumping you up in your bracket.



That doesn't make a difference, that's why you're taxed at your marginal tax rate. Marginal tax rate is the percentage of income tax you pay on the last dollar you make, so by them taxing you like that on allowances, you'll never have to pay come tax time and you'll probably get a return. As for tax brackets, under $35,595 is the low one at 16%, $35,595 to $71,190 is the next one at 22%, $71,190 to $115,739 is the 3rd one at 26% and more than $115,739 is the last one at 29%. So the only one you could possibly be bumped up to as a Pte is the 2nd one, but in any case, you only pay tax in that bracket on the amount that falls in that bracket. So say you made $36,000, you'd only pay 22% on $405 and in fact, probably not even that since your pension payments and other deductions will bring your taxable income under $35,595. 

Those are the federal tax brackets, provincial ones are added on top of those numbers. Here's the link for all of them.

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tax/individuals/faq/taxrates-e.html

It amazes me how little people know about the tax system, even after years of paying it. I'd suggest to all you nuggets out there to learn a little more about the system, knowing where your money is going is the first step to becoming financially stable.


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## JimmyPeeOn (7 Mar 2005)

Closer to 37000 after all the deductions.  I do understand what your saying though.


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## ERIK2RCR (18 May 2006)

I heard in an O-Group point this week that some field untis were going to be given an allowance, along the same line as sea pay/jump pay. I'm just wondering if anyone is "in the know" on this.


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## The_Falcon (18 May 2006)

http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/dppd/allowance/engraph/allow_e.asp?sidesection=3&sidecat=30#FieldOperations

Its no big secret, when you are in the field you get FOA (Field Operation Allowance).


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## Armymedic (18 May 2006)

Hatchet Man,
Read the question...



			
				GUNNER2RCR said:
			
		

> I heard in an O-Group point this week that some field untis were going to be given an allowance, along the same line as sea pay/jump pay. I'm just wondering if anyone is "in the know" on this.



I haven't heard anything official about this yet, but it has been talked about, esp bantered about at the mess. Having members of designated units draw full time field ops pay would definately decrease the workload for the clerks, and possibly save $$ as the monthly rate can and would be less then the cost of 30 days continous duty.

Current daily is $16.41 X 30 days=492. 30
If you gave all army pers $120 a month and encouraged more/longer field deployments. I would imagine the savings could be larger. 
If I were to set this up, you would not collect this pay while deployed overseas, and you'd have to be deployed on fd ex something along the line of 4 weeks a yrs to qualify. Or something like that.

I personally think it is a good idea.


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## ERIK2RCR (18 May 2006)

Armymedic.

We weren't given an amount or a start date, but with highers "managment of expectations", i can't see it in the O-Group if it wasn't past the rumor stage. 

Thank's for the answer though, i thought i blanked out  or was halucinating when i heard about extra money


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## Patrolman (18 May 2006)

I heard this as a O-group point today. It was also ststed that FOA was to increase for those who did not qualify for the monthly rate. Here is the funny part. I work at a CF training center where I deploy for two weeks at a time every eight weeks which is more than some field units. I however, am not entitled to the monthly allowance because technically I am not in a field unit. Oh well, I am sure I will be back in batallion somewheres in a couple of years.


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## TCBF (18 May 2006)

FOOLS! 

Don't you know that by starting this thread, you are alerting many of our wives to the fact that FOA even EXISTS?

MODS! MODS! Remove this thread!  MODS! MODS!

 ;D

Tom


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## 1feral1 (18 May 2006)

Armymedic said:
			
		

> Hatchet Man,
> Read the question...
> 
> Current daily is $16.41 X 30 days=492. 30
> ...




Thats it? still only $16 and change, not to make ya's drool and want to enlist down here, but we have two tiers of FOA. 

The first for more harsh conditions, basically living in the field (sleeping in swags or on the ground) and eating rat packs is $42.87 per day, the second tier is also living in the field but with a few more creature comforts such as fresh rats, cots to sleep on etc, this is $25.15/day.

Its a real bonus here, and adds up fast if out in the J or desert for any time over just a few weeks.

So 10 days of T1 = $428.70, that $1286.10 for 30 days, all on top of ones normal salary.


Cheers,

Wes

PS $1AUD = 76c US


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## Scoobie Newbie (18 May 2006)

just a reminder, .FOA is heavily taxed unlike TD.


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## Centurian1985 (18 May 2006)

TCBF said:
			
		

> FOOLS!
> 
> Don't you know that by starting this thread, you are alerting many of our wives to the fact that FOA even EXISTS?
> 
> MODS! MODS! Remove this thread!  MODS! MODS!



I've never understood why so many guys get uptight about their wives (or girlfriends or spouses or whatever) finding out about FOA or other overseas pay (foreign duty, hazard, etc.) or any of the other 'perk' money.  

My missus and I had an easy understanding about this - any extra pay was mine to dispose of as I wished because it qualified as 'sanity pay' - money I spent while away to maintain my sanity (usually pizzas, movies, and booze , if available!) and to buy presents for her and the family (if the opportunity existed or was practical  ^-^ ).


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## 1feral1 (18 May 2006)

Quagmire said:
			
		

> just a reminder, .FOA is heavily taxed unlike TD.



1.  Yes incidentals here too are not taxed, and the FOA is taxed the same % as your salary, but thats still an extra $1000, and its still a bonus for putting up with the heat, humidity and the sometimes insane conditons experienced here.

2. Hey Cent, TCBF is only being tongue in cheek, so chill out!

Cheers,

Wes


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## paracowboy (18 May 2006)

TCBF said:
			
		

> FOOLS!
> 
> Don't you know that by starting this thread, you are alerting many of our wives to the fact that FOA even EXISTS?
> 
> ...


I'm all over it! Too late! She's looking over my shoulder! Dagnabit Tom! If you hadn't called me she'd never have read this!


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## Britney Spears (18 May 2006)

I can tell Wesley really misses the cool, comfortable winters in Dundurn or Wainwright or Shilo.....


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## SeaDog (19 May 2006)

A friend of mine onboard claimed (key word here) that once when his wife looked at his pay statement and saw "Sea Pay" and the appropriate amount she was livid..he had never informed of her of such a thing.  In a calm and collected voice he informed her that he never saw the need do discuss his "pay deductions, for food at sea and the like"....nothing like calm under fire...


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## Kat Stevens (19 May 2006)

Centurian1985 said:
			
		

> I've never understood why so many guys get uptight about their wives (or girlfriends or spouses or whatever) finding out about FOA or other overseas pay (foreign duty, hazard, etc.) or any of the other 'perk' money.
> 
> My missus and I had an easy understanding about this - any extra pay was mine to dispose of as I wished because it qualified as 'sanity pay' - money I spent while away to maintain my sanity (usually pizzas, movies, and booze , if available!) and to buy presents for her and the family (if the opportunity existed or was practical  ^-^ ).



Good on you and your missus.  Many look at it as a bonus for staying home with the kiddies, with full remote privileges, while mister is out swanning it, getting a fabulous farmers tan in Suffield, or all that great winter camping in Wainwrong.


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## Franko (19 May 2006)

Wesley H. Allen said:
			
		

> Thats it? still only $16 and change, not to make ya's drool and want to enlist down here, but we have two tiers of FOA.
> 
> The first for more harsh conditions, basically living in the field (sleeping in swags or on the ground) and eating rat packs is $42.87 per day, the second tier is also living in the field but with a few more creature comforts such as fresh rats, cots to sleep on etc, this is $25.15/day.
> 
> ...



That's it.....I'll get my imagration papers in order    ;D

As for the FOA being placed perminatly for field units, it's been in the works for a while. I first heard of it about 4 years ago.

We'll see what happens soon enough.

Regards


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## Centurian1985 (19 May 2006)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Good on you and your missus.  Many look at it as a bonus for staying home with the kiddies, with full remote privileges, while mister is out swanning it, getting a fabulous farmers tan in Suffield, or all that great winter camping in Wainwrong.



Seriously?  Bonus pay for them when they got hot showers and food on hand all day, plus the car, all the creature comforts, and access to the big account? They needed a bonus  because they have  to stay home with the kids??  Holy cow, more power to you; if my missus had that kind of attitude about my work we'd never have made it past year 5!


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## Kat Stevens (19 May 2006)

Hands up everyone who ever came home from a long FTX and got this: " Glad you're home, these kids have been driving me nuts.  You bond, I'm going out."  or something similar.


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## TCBF (20 May 2006)

Isn't there a line in 'Tha Odd Angry Shot" something like "It ain't no picnic back here either!"

I remember one of the guys getting a divorce, and one of the wives told the soon to be ex-wife that she could get some of his pension money.  Her lawyer didn't know that.  This was CFRS Cornwallis in 1986.

Tom


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## TMM (20 May 2006)

*minor thread hi-jack*

Pension and divorce is a topic I am unfortunately too familiar with. Rules regarding pension division vary amongst employers and to complicate things CPP has its own set of rules. Pension allocation can also change upon re-marriage after recipt of pension starts.

A lawyer who didn't know that should not have been doing a divorce.


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## FormerHorseGuard (21 May 2006)

the not telling the wife about FOA, AIRCREW ALLOWANCES, SEADUTY, etc is almost standard practice from the day the allowances were invented.
I worked at a AREA HQ in the 1990s and there many Officers and NCOs who would go on TD for extended time periods and they  would always have me process their claim and hold on the cheque till they came back from what ever trip they were on.  Standard practice in the office was to mail the cheque home or to where ever instead of keeping it for more then a week.  i had more then one major and above come to me and demand I hold on to the cheque no matter what till they were back in the office to personally take delivery of the cheque. 
did not want wives or in some cases husbands to see it. 

Back in the day most times claims were paid out in cash, ever wonder why? easier to deal with then writing 100s of a cheques in a day and easier to hide the cash from a spouse.


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## TCBF (21 May 2006)

You don't hide cash - you spend it.

Either that, or it goes into the "secret" Sparkasse Bank account used only during Leopard gun-camps at Bergen-Hohne, and their all-inclusive rec runs to Hamburg.

 ;D

Tom


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## Kat Stevens (22 May 2006)

35 mm film canisters used to hold a whole bunch of DM5 coins..... My missus used to wonder why I took loads of film on Fallex, and never took a picture...


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