# Army.ca Coin on E-bay



## cadettrooper (27 Jun 2006)

this is crazy..................

http://cgi.ebay.ca/CANADIAN-ARMY-ONLINE-ARMY-CA-CHALLENGE-COIN_W0QQitemZ300001099388QQihZ020QQcategoryZ74710QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## George Wallace (27 Jun 2006)

Looks like Mike's Coin Manufacturer does business elsewhere.  I wonder if that is ethical?


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## Trinity (27 Jun 2006)

Ethical.. no

legal.. yes


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## Bruce Monkhouse (27 Jun 2006)

Thats disturbing............


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## Trinity (27 Jun 2006)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Thats disturbing............



I'm sorry.. That's how I look in the morning.


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## GAP (27 Jun 2006)

Maybe this company needs to lose some business from some of it's revenue base to get the point across that these coins are NOT for public sale on Ebay, but are struck for the organizations that paid for them, thus ONLY THOSE organizations get to disburse them.


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## HItorMiss (27 Jun 2006)

Perhaps we should just buy the coin and make sure it stay's in Mike's hands?


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## GAP (27 Jun 2006)

I got the impression from the Ebay ad that the company was not just offering the Army.ca Ser# 0000 coin. They were pushing coins for all the listed enterprises.


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## Mike Bobbitt (27 Jun 2006)

Thanks for the heads up folks. It appears the mint is trying to sell our coins on ebay... a bit disappointing. The one thing we should *not* do is bid the coin up and make this back door selling profitable for the mint. There's a plan afoot to "keep it in the family," so I'll ask people to refrain from bidding on it if they can.

Thanks
Mike


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## Scratch_043 (27 Jun 2006)

A short 'question to the seller' that I am considering sending.

Where are your ethics? I am a member of this organization, and we have serialized coins for our paid subscribers. Where do you get off in selling this item publically to make a profit? The site owner paid for exclusive coins to be minted for our purpose only, yet you (or whoever is supplying you) have decided to do the unethical thing, and turn around and sell this 'challenge coin'. For shame.


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## Mike Bobbitt (27 Jun 2006)

I intend to approach the seller when the auction is over. It may not be in our best interest to contact them yet though.


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## Scratch_043 (27 Jun 2006)

RGR, that's why I held off on sending this 'question' to him till I heard back from you.


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## Michael Dorosh (27 Jun 2006)

Coin 0000 could come in handy at the bar at the next army.ca AGM...not for drinks mind you, but it would surely start a heck of a fight...


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## GAP (27 Jun 2006)

HitorMiss said:
			
		

> Perhaps we should just buy the coin and make sure it stay's in Mike's hands?



I'll contribute...a little

 ;D


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## Yrys (27 Jun 2006)

The seller /cie selling seems to have coins from a lot of organisations...

Wouldn't it be interesting to contact some of them to let them know about it/
learned about theirs reactions?

It's all challenges coins, some people out to be (hum) 'disappointed' in those selling!


Yrys


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## Canadian.Trucker (27 Jun 2006)

Is this a coin resembling a regimental coin but created for specific members of army.ca?  Just curious as I have not heard of this yet.

Sorry to hear someone is doing something underhanded, hopefully the situation is resolved with minimal fuss.


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## GAP (27 Jun 2006)

Canadian.Trucker said:
			
		

> Is this a coin resembling a regimental coin but created for specific members of army.ca?  Just curious as I have not heard of this yet.



You too, can have your very own coin...just thing of the status lift and maybe free drinks it will grace you with.....simply "subscribe"


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## Burrows (27 Jun 2006)

Canadian.Trucker said:
			
		

> Is this a coin resembling a regimental coin but created for specific members of army.ca?  Just curious as I have not heard of this yet.
> 
> Sorry to hear someone is doing something underhanded, hopefully the situation is resolved with minimal fuss.


Thats exactly what they are.  Every subscriber gets one, as did members of the DS.


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## Michael Dorosh (27 Jun 2006)

Kyle Burrows said:
			
		

> Thats exactly what they are.  Every subscriber gets one, as did members of the DS.



Which is why I've got two of them - but I'm not selling. I'm like Hermann Goering, I gotta have a duplicate of everything.  When he got married, the Luftwaffe gave him an expensive presentation sword - Goering went out and had an exact copy made, but much lighter so he could tell the difference between the real one and the fake one. That's the sort of thing that happens when you have more money than brains...if anyone wanted coin 0000 bad enough, they could send their copy to Pakistan, where they will make dies up for about 75 dollars Canadian...

So what exactly is the deal on this ebay one - George presents the best explanation - that this is the manufacturer - I take it the ebay vendor is not just a collector, but a guy who mints these to begin with?  I see there is only a day and a half left on the option and no bidders anyway.


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## Scratch_043 (27 Jun 2006)

I don't know, he may be the mintor (?) or he could have bought it from the mint. But either way, it's unethical.

Mike, did you even get a 0000 coin minted? if so, is it in your posession? It's possible that when they were minted, the mint made the 0000 coin, and did not include it in the ones he sent you, and then turned around and sold it on the open market..... I'm getting ahead of myself now.


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## Michael Dorosh (27 Jun 2006)

It's illegal if Mike Bobbitt had the expectation that he would be the only vendor of the coins - though the guy who made them could be a jerk and say that there is nothing in writing stipulating that, if it is the case. One would "reasonably expect' Mike to have the right to exclusivity, but it's all in how the original deal was done. As for unethical, no arguments there, but ethics and business unfortunately don't always mix.

I don't see much of a market for the coins outside of army.ca in any event - those who would most likely want one are also most likely already members and therefore loyal to Mike.


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## Springroll (27 Jun 2006)

This is just ridiculous!

I hope this is dealt with swiftly.....


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## George Wallace (27 Jun 2006)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Which is why I've got two of them - but I'm not selling. I'm like Hermann Goering, I gotta have a duplicate of everything.  When he got married,



Well Michael, when I got this far I was wondering about his duplicate wife, but alas, I was disappointed as I read further.

I do think that it is very unethical of the vendor of these coins to have run off others that he could sell on other means for a profit.  If he is doing it with all the organizations that he deals with, he may be in for a nasty surprise, as many organizations will sue for patent infringement if they hold title to the design of the coin.  Mike would have to have the rights to the design if that were the case with the Army.ca coin.  If not, I suspect the Manufacture could reasonably reproduce as many as he wanted, at Mike's expense (loss of profit).

I don't think the Army.ca coins have hit the four digit numbers yet, but it would not be unreasonable to expect them to as the site grows and more members become subscribers.


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## Michael Dorosh (27 Jun 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Well Michael, when I got this far I was wondering about his duplicate wife, but alas, I was disappointed as I read further.



I find that most stories regarding Hermann Goering have an unhappy ending; I regret I was powerless to buck the trend in this case.


> I do think that it is very unethical of the vendor of these coins to have run off others that he could sell on other means for a profit.  If he is doing it with all the organizations that he deals with, he may be in for a nasty surprise, as many organizations will sue for patent infringement if they hold title to the design of the coin.  Mike would have to have the rights to the design if that were the case with the Army.ca coin.  If not, I suspect the Manufacture could reasonably reproduce as many as he wanted, at Mike's expense (loss of profit).
> 
> I don't think the Army.ca coins have hit the four digit numbers yet, but it would not be unreasonable to expect them to as the site grows and more members become subscribers.



Well stated on all counts. It sucks, but there it is.


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## Mike Bobbitt (27 Jun 2006)

You know, I can't recall if there was a #0000 minted in the original round. If it was, it would be sitting in the "do not issue" pile, which I can check tonight. All the coins have 4 digits though.

I suspect there is little I can do to "force" the guy to stop selling them. The two things we have going for us are that I can express my displeasure in very strong words, and (as pointed out) he's not going to sell a lot of these on eBay or elsewhere. It's up for $12.50 US (plus applicable duties and taxes as it traverses Customs). For an extra $15 or so people can get the coin plus shirt, sticker and subscriber status, so I'm not worried he's going to undercut us on a regular basis.


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## George Wallace (27 Jun 2006)

On a lighter note:  We have all now been warned that the Coin # 0000 was sold on eBay, so it would be in inadmissible in a "Coining" and should instead result in having the owner "buy" no matter what the outcome of the "Coining" should be.   ;D


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## Bruce Monkhouse (27 Jun 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> On a lighter note:  We have all now been warned that the Coin # 0000 was sold on eBay, so it would be in inadmissible in a "Coining" and should instead result in having the owner "buy" no matter what the outcome of the "Coining" should be.   ;D



Yup, he can be the first to "buy" his very own throatpunch.....


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## Cloud Cover (27 Jun 2006)

Mike Bobbitt said:
			
		

> You know, I can't recall if there was a #0000 minted in the original round. If it was, it would be sitting in the "do not issue" pile, which I can check tonight. All the coins have 4 digits though.
> 
> I suspect there is little I can do to "force" the guy to stop selling them. The two things we have going for us are that I can express my displeasure in very strong words, and (as pointed out) he's not going to sell a lot of these on eBay or elsewhere. It's up for $12.50 US (plus applicable duties and taxes as it traverses Customs). For an extra $15 or so people can get the coin plus shirt, sticker and subscriber status, so I'm not worried he's going to undercut us on a regular basis.



Ahem ... who originally designed the coin?


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## Pearson (27 Jun 2006)

And here I though Mr. Bobbit was trying to raise a little beer money for the next DS party.


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## Scott (27 Jun 2006)

I was waiting for Whiskey to weigh in...


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## c.jacob (27 Jun 2006)

Is that actually Legal.  If Mike gives a design to a mintor to be made and the mintor decides to make a few of his own and sell them  ???


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## Bruce Monkhouse (27 Jun 2006)

If it is illegal then Whiskey will be all over it just like an amateur on Monday night at Roxanne's..... ^-^  hehehe


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## Michael Dorosh (27 Jun 2006)

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> Ahem ... who originally designed the coin?



Does the artist automatically retain copyright? If I design a coin for the Royal Canadian Mint, for example, don't they retain the right - during negotiations - to assume copyright of that artwork in exchange for paying me "x" amount of dollars?

What is the "default setting" for want of a better term?


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## Armymedic (27 Jun 2006)

Mike,
pm sent ref coin.


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## George Wallace (27 Jun 2006)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Does the artist automatically retain copyright? If I design a coin for the Royal Canadian Mint, for example, don't they retain the right - during negotiations - to assume copyright of that artwork in exchange for paying me "x" amount of dollars?



No.  The artist does not automatically retain the copyright.  If the artist is 'commissioned' to produce something, the person or persons who commissioned the artist would usually hold the copyright.  

You will find that in business, where all the R&D done on a product is the property of the Company, not the people who have done the research or development of the product.  

Can the artist negotiate to keep the copyright?  I would guess that it is a possibility, but that the person or persons paying the 'commission' would surely be foolish to be caught in that situation in the majority of cases.  It could lead to a large financial loss for them.

Before anyone thinks of musicians like the Beatles (that band that Paul McCarthy was in before Wings), remember that they were not commissioned to write their music.  They wrote and  paid for their own recordings and paid commissions to the Record companies, and collected whatever Royalties they could off their music.  Different from the artist who is commissioned to paint a painting or create a sculpture for a person or organization.  There the artist is paid a fee and given recognition for their work.


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## 1feral1 (27 Jun 2006)

As much as I am not for the scalping of our coins, it is good to see that we are a collectable item out there. Ya, some collector will buy it, but what can ya do. Thats capitalism for ya.

Cheers,

Wes


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## Michael Dorosh (27 Jun 2006)

The Calgary Highlanders minted a special set of regimental awards, in four grades, and have been presenting them for about 15 years now. One of the guys was at a gun show and saw one of the awards being hawked by a medal collector.  The awards are not engraved, but the recipient of this one had seen fit to engrave his name on the back - he had been an MWO many years ago and retired something like 10 years ago, and passed on something like 5 years ago or something. Buddy who spotted it thought it was a bit strange to see it up for sale, but as we've discussed in the medal collecting threads here, if someone values it enough to spend money on it, more power to them - better someone who values it end up with it.

Which unfortunately does not seem to be the case with this coin. I'll be interested to see if Mike has 0000 in hand, or if perhaps it was the original sample (proof copy?) that the manufacturer did. My guess would be that the manufacturer is either selling it, or gave it to some collector who is now flogging it, and this is hopefully a one-time thing. It would make sense for Mike to get numbers 0001 through 2500 or whatever, leaving 0000 as the proof but I suppose we're all just talking out our behinds for now.

Love a good conspiracy story, though.


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## Cloud Cover (27 Jun 2006)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> If it is illegal then Whiskey will be all over it just like an amateur on Monday night at Roxanne's..... ^-^  hehehe



For the record, there was no touching, so .. ... oh, never mind.


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## Mike Bobbitt (27 Jun 2006)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> I'll be interested to see if Mike has 0000 in hand, or if perhaps it was the original sample (proof copy?) that the manufacturer did. My guess would be that the manufacturer is either selling it, or gave it to some collector who is now flogging it, and this is hopefully a one-time thing. It would make sense for Mike to get numbers 0001 through 2500 or whatever, leaving 0000 as the proof but I suppose we're all just talking out our behinds for now.



I looked and I don't have a 0000. In fact, it all came flooding back to me... I actually requested the numbering start at 0000 so I'd have a "demo" coin so to speak, but when the order came, 0000 was absent. (They still sent the correct number of coins, just not numbered correctly.)

Anyway, much ado about nothing I think, though I still intend to contact the mint when the auction is up.


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## McG (28 Jun 2006)

Mike,
Don't you own the "Army.ca" name?


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## Mike Bobbitt (28 Jun 2006)

I do, but that doesn't mean as much as you might think. Basically, it entitles me to a long, costly legal battle if desired.


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## big bad john (29 Jun 2006)

Mike PM Inbound


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## 1feral1 (29 Jun 2006)

I see it sold for over $15US.

It would have been nice if one of us bought it, and returned it to its RIGHTFUL owner.

COld beers,

Wes


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## sdimock (30 Jun 2006)

Interesting that the army.ca coin is the only thing that jhill6633 has ever purchased on ebay.


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## Mike Bobbitt (30 Jun 2006)

I don't want to give anyone's identity away, but the coin was bought by an Army.ca member, who is graciously sending it to me for safe keeping. The family comes through once again. 


Cheers
Mike


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## Gunnar (30 Jun 2006)

Remember how you were gonna keep #2 for the GG or something?  I think you should keep #0000 for Jack Layton, with all the provisos that he buy the rounds, and/or receive the throat punch....

Just a thought... :blotto:


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## Michael Dorosh (30 Jun 2006)

I'd send 0000 to General Hillier, on the proviso that he start posting here...


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