# Question(s) about RFRG payout.



## CDN2525 (5 Sep 2012)

Ok, so here's my situation:

I was in the PRes for a little over ten years, CT'ed to the regular force for a 3 years BE, got out 2 months early and returned immediately to the PRes after getting out, and i've been PRes ever since. 

Here's the pickle: When i left the regs to come back to the reserves, i had to get out to the supp-res, then transfer from supp-res to the PRes because  apparently it takes a higher authority to transfer a member from the RegF directly to PRes than it does to release a member to the Supp res or civvy st, and that authority happened to be on x-mas leave when i was going through this process (and much to my chagrin - getting out meant i had to account for 13 years worth of lost kit rather than taking my 638 and accompanying kit problems to the PRes, which would have been much cheaper in the short term).

I got my payout letter the other day in the mail, and it's crediting me with only 1.7 years service (for all practical reasons, i've been in the army since 1996 save for a month or two of ED&T).

I did not get an RFRG payout when initially left the reserves to join the RegF, and i never got a payout from the RegF because apparently i forfeitted it by getting out two months early (i didin't complain as i was grateful they were cutting me a break and letting me go to start this  job i'd been offered).

The payout only applies for the current service you're engaged in now, not previous services, hence the 1.7 years (which is an accurate account of how much service i have done in the reserves since getting out of the regs).

So my questions are as follows:

1) For the purposes of this subject, would transferring between the regs and reserves be considered "continuous" service provided you transitioned directly between components and were never "out"?
           A) If not, should i not have been given my RFRG upon leaving the reserves and joining the regs ? (That i wasn't offered it is what makes me think component transfers are considered continuous service)

2) Is there a statute of limitations for cases where a member gets out but gets back in the next day (even between components) that would cause that to *not* be viewed as a break in service?
           A) If so, what is the time period? (I think i've heard elsewhere in the admin world of 30 days being forgivable and possibly disregarded as a break in service, though i may have imagined this)
           B) If so what if you miss that period for reasons beyond your control (You got out on the friday, were in the reserves OR on the monday attempting to join back up, and they took months to get you enrolled)?
           C) Failing all that, can showing that the break in service (i.e. having to get out completely to go from regs to reserves) was beyond your control be used to forgive the break in service?

3) For the three years i was in the regs, being that i forfeited the regular force gratuity by getting out early, would that time still count as creditable today if my service had been continuous (PRes to Reg to PRes)? I know this one is a long shot. I wouldn't lose too much sleep if they told me i wasn't entitled for those three years.
..................................................

As you can see, i've got a lot of money on the line here, so any help would be much appreciated. I'd hate to think that i'm out all that money due to my service not being "continuous", simply because i was in the wrong place at the wrong time when the wrong guy was on leave (nothing against the guy being on leave of course. It was near Xmas after all). 


My current CoA is as follows, and i'm open to any suggestions:

-Get documents supporting my 10+ years of PRes service prior to transferring to the regs
-Component transfer forms and posting message from when i went to the Regs from the PRes.
-Get my RegF release file. Thankfully when i got out i handed it to my gaining reserve unit which means there's a better chance of that file still being part of this universe than there would be had i hung onto it. 
-Try and find documentation that details when i first showed up in the reserve OR (which will show i went to join the reserves <1 business day after getting out of the regs), and how long it took them to enrol me. 
-Memos up my CoC to let them know what i'm up to. 
-Send a detailed memo and all supporting documents to the authority in charge of all of this in an attempt to appeal. 
-Take a giant dump in the middle of the parade square should all this fail.

Thanks in advance for any advice you can give me. 

Advance!
Pro Patria!


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## mariomike (5 Sep 2012)

I don't know the answers, but you may find some here.

Topic: "Reserve Force Retirement Gratuity":
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/16008.0  

Topic: "RFRG - How long should it take?":
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/42105.0

RFRG is also discussed here,

Topic: "Reserve Pension- Merged":
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/28418.0.html


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## Fishbone Jones (5 Sep 2012)

There is no RFRG anymore. It's been flipped to a Severence package.

Go here: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/105269/post-1170291;topicseen#new and welcome to the club.


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## Canadian.Trucker (6 Sep 2012)

I also do not have all the answers for you, but I'm in a similar boat to you.  I did 2.5 years in the RegF and then released/transferred to the PRes.  In the severance calculation they didn't include my RegF time.  I'm not too worried right now, come March if there's no resolution then I might be a little miffed, but we'll see when that time comes.

A question I have is, you did still get your return of contributions right?  Because regardless of time served that should have been given back to you.


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## dapaterson (6 Sep 2012)

Do not wait until March.  By mid October you should be working with your OR to get it corrected.

By March (the deadline) the OR will be swamped with all the folks who were waiting until the last minute.  Don't be that guy.


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## brihard (6 Sep 2012)

Canadian.Trucker said:
			
		

> I also do not have all the answers for you, but I'm in a similar boat to you.  I did 2.5 years in the RegF and then released/transferred to the PRes.  In the severance calculation they didn't include my RegF time.  I'm not too worried right now, come March if there's no resolution then I might be a little miffed, but we'll see when that time comes.
> 
> A question I have is, you did still get your return of contributions right?  Because regardless of time served that should have been given back to you.



You're mixed up dude. You're thinking pension. There's no contributions to ex RFRG / now PIL of Severance


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## Canadian.Trucker (6 Sep 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Do not wait until March.  By mid October you should be working with your OR to get it corrected.
> 
> By March (the deadline) the OR will be swamped with all the folks who were waiting until the last minute.  Don't be that guy.


Wasn't going to be.  Like I said I'll be miffed if there's no resolution by March, doesn't mean I'm going to wait until then to do something about it.  My OR pers will be very aware of my situation come tomorrow morning, I know they don't have all the answers yet, but at least when they do go for training and info my situation will at the forefront of their minds (I hope).



			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> You're mixed up dude. You're thinking pension. There's no contributions to ex RFRG / now PIL of Severance


Nope, not mixed up.  Just curious if the OP received their return of contributions, because I received mine when I CT'd to the PRes.


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## dapaterson (6 Sep 2012)

Canadian.Trucker said:
			
		

> Wasn't going to be.  Like I said I'll be miffed if there's no resolution by March, doesn't mean I'm going to wait until then to do something about it.  My OR pers will be very aware of my situation come tomorrow morning, I know they don't have all the answers yet, but at least when they do go for training and info my situation will at the forefront of their minds (I hope).
> Nope, not mixed up.  Just curious if the OP received their return of contributions, because I received mine when I CT'd to the PRes.



Anyone jumping over since 2007 with at least 2 years in would not receive a return of contributions; they would be vested in the Reg F pension plan and would continue to contribute as long as they continued to serve.


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## Res Release Clerk (6 Sep 2012)

To answer the OP, here's an example of continuous svc with fictional dates : 

- enrol P res June 1st 1995
- release from P res July 1st 2005
Technically more than ten years of svc but because of a LOA/NES period, the actual time served is less than ten years so no RFRG was paid out. 
- transfer directly to Reg force on July 2nd 2005 (no break in continuous svc)
- release from Reg force on June 15th 2008 (no severance pay paid at that time)
- transfer to Supp res on June 16th 2008 (again, no break in continuous svc)
- transfer from Supp res to P res August 10th 2008
- release from P res after March 1st 2012

In that example, there was no break in continuous service, regardless if you were in the P res, Reg force or Supp res. On the CFSP form, the eligible svc line says : "Most recent date of enrolment in the CF (in any component)" 

For the sake of calculating the CFSP, we would take the very first enrolment date of June 1st 1995. The last date of accumulation of eligible svc for most people is Feb 29th 2012. We would take the entire svc from 1995 up to Feb 29th 2012, take out the time you spent on the Supp res, any LOA/NES/LWOP period and any severance pay/RFRG you previously received and that would give you the number of years of CFSP you'd be entitled to. 

Here's an example of break in continous service :
- enrol P res June 1st 1995
- release from P res July 1st 2005
- transfer directly to Reg force on July 2nd 2005 (no break in continuous svc)
- release from Reg force on June 15th 2008 (no severance pay paid at that time)
- re enrol in P res on June 17th 2008
- release from P res after March 1st 2012

Using that example, the difference is that there is an official one day break in continuous service on June 16th 2008. On that day, you were not in the P res, not in the Reg force and not on Supp res. 

If we were to calculate how much CFSP you'd be entitled to, the only period of continuous svc you would have is from June 17th 2008 to Feb 29th 2012. That's all you'd get and everything you did between 1995 and June 15th 2008 wouldn't count at all because of that one day break in continuous service. The reason why that one day break happened is of no importance whatsoever. 

Does that help you at all?


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## CDN2525 (6 Sep 2012)

That helps me greatly! Thanks!

If i understand you correctly, if you get out (of the regs in my case) to the supp res, then rejoin from the supp res to the PRes, that doesn't constitute a break in service? Becuase that's that's precicely my story. I even still have my Supp res ID card they handed me upon leaving the reg force which clearly says on the back "was tranferred from the: Regular Force to the: Reserve Force.".

So it would appear that all of this is actually a clerical error. According to my letter, they considered my tranfering from the supp res to the PRes (after getting out of the regs) as my most recent date of enrollment. As i understand it now, that wasn't an enrolment at all.

Thanks a lot for your help! This sounds like it won't be as hard a fight as i'd been preparing myself for. Cheers!


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## donaldk (6 Sep 2012)

Thanks guys for clarifying this.  I am still waiting for my Severance paperwork to come in.  When should I go see the clerks about this if I have not gotten it? I still have yet to receive final assessment on my reserve pension buyback.

My service details:
- enrol PRes 28 Nov 2000
- release PRes 21 Jun 2009 (no RFRG paid out)
- direct transfer to RegF 22 Jun 2009
still serving


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## dapaterson (6 Sep 2012)

Wait until after Sept 17th - that's the target date.

In your case, based on my quick & dirty calculations:

11 years, 93 days or 11.25 years.  That translates to 78.75 days of pay at your substantive rank and IPC on 01 March 2012 (if you take the PiL).

Note that if you cash out less than the full amount, the amount you take must be for a round number of years.  And since you've got both Res and Reg service, your file will be audited regardless of the amount you cash out.

Pers with only Reg F service who cash out less than half of their severance will not have their files audited.


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## Res Release Clerk (6 Sep 2012)

LIke I said in another post, everyone in our HQ who had both Reg force and P res svc, sometimes combines with Supp res, all have errors in their estimate from Ottawa. Those that only have either just Reg force or just P res svc have accurate estimates. 
I wouldn't worry too much about it, just make sure that when the calculation is done at your unit, they do include all your previous uninterrupted service.


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## CDN2525 (6 Sep 2012)

Cool, thanks. 

I did some reading today and was able to surmise that yes, Supp Res time is considered service (this process doesn't consider you "out" for having been supp res). That seems to be where the confusion is. My assessment letter supposes that my transfer from the Supp Res was my "Most recent enrollment in the CF", but every supporting document related to the matter considers Supp Res time as "ineligible service", i.e. still service, but service that doesn't count towards your sum - it's lumped in with LWOP, ED&T & NES. It's not a break in service, it's a period of service that doesn't add to your final total. 

What i know now is (and can prove) is that service that includes a period of Supp Res time is still continuous service, and your most recent enrollment into the CF is still the enrollment at the very beginning of that period, not the point where you transferred off of the SuppRes into the PRes or RegF.

Think of it this way - If you've only ever put your hand on the bible and literally sworn in once in your career, then you're still on your original enrollment and are owed for all the way back to that time (save for periods of ineligible service).


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## DAA (6 Sep 2012)

CDN2525 said:
			
		

> Supp Res time is considered service (this process doesn't consider you "out" for having been supp res).



Think of the Supp Res like Hockey Stats.....

Your part of the "team" and on the active roster, but you just don't get any ice time or credit for sitting on the bench. 

And I absolutely positively do not mean this in any form, implied or otherwise, as disrepect for those on the Supp Res!


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## missionessential (4 Oct 2012)

Thanks for all the great info.

I'm pretty much in the same situation. My letter assumes that the date when I transferred from the regs to the reserve is my initial enrollment date. It doesn't take into account the 4.5 years reg and another 4.5 years reserve prior to that. I already have my OR tracking down the required docs. My APS is kicking in and I can't remember if I got a severance upon leaving the regF.

All service continuous. No breaks or NES. Just a couple periods of ED&T. 

ME


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