# Why do we Run ??



## poko (3 Feb 2005)

I can say i been in for 4 year and in that time the only PT we have done was running, ruck march, and circuit trainning. Nice and all but why does the canadien force does not make Self defance/ hand to hand combat  part of the regular PT.  What i get from this is that if there ever a enemy that want to fight with me i was not train to fight but to run away.   ???


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## Baloo (3 Feb 2005)

I think you're definitely looking at it the wrong way if you see PT in running as fleeing from the battlfield. What is more likely to allow you to consistently close with and destroy the enemy, the fact that you can kill a man with your thumb, or the stamina to withstand a weeks worth of marching in a warzone? I am speaking not out of experience with what I am about to say, so bear with me, but if you're in the mountains of Afghanistan, who is going to be the more competent and switched on soldier, the one who practices hand to hand, or the one so well trained and in shape that he will be able to fight the good fight with the enemy once detected. I am serious when I say I am looking for the man next to me to be able to keep up, and not die carrying the C6 to it's position, because he can't hack it. Makes for an overall loss of ability if one does not keep in shape. There will always be the need for fighting ability, but being fit enough to actually fight when the time comes is key.


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## George Wallace (3 Feb 2005)

poko said:
			
		

> I can say i been in for 4 year and in that time the only PT we have done was running, ruck march, and circuit trainning. Nice and all but why does the canadien force does not make Self defance/ hand to hand combat part of the regular PT. What i get from this is that if there ever a enemy that want to fight with me i was not train to fight but to run away. ???



To me, it seems like a lack of imagination or leadership in your Unit.  Most Units are trying to implement the New CF fitness program.

GW


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## Michael Dorosh (3 Feb 2005)

Historically speaking, hand to hand combat is an extreme rarity on the battlefield - if you're in bayonet range of a live enemy soldier capable of effective resistance, something has - generally speaking - gone horribly wrong somewhere.


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## Butters (3 Feb 2005)

Why don't you just go take some Karate lessons in your spare time? Or maybe some kick boxing?


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## Sh0rtbUs (3 Feb 2005)

Hand to Hand combat training isnt going to do you a whole lot of good if you're buckled over, winded and light headed from the long charge into the battlefield...


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## civvy3840 (3 Feb 2005)

I agree with Michael. If your ever close enough to the enemy that you would have to use hand to hand then your having a bad day.


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## Big Bad John (3 Feb 2005)

Running is good.  It builds the basics for all physical activities, such as endurance, stamina, and wind.  It is cheap and effective.

If you want to have different training (i.e. Hand to hand), as a PERI Staff.  They should be able to point you in the right direction.


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## leader (4 Feb 2005)

It depends on your unit, because mine does do some hand-to hand as PT


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## the 48th regulator (4 Feb 2005)

You know what I say? A damn good question.

Hand to hand does a world of good, and I wish I had a lot more chances to do it over the years. It allows you face up and actually have to strike out and hit someone and realize one can do possible damage.  Figure eleven targets don't yelp when hit and the are far away. And, it adds some physical fitness.  

Man we have become so bad that we actually criticise someone these days for asking that.


tess


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## Big Bad John (4 Feb 2005)

Hand to hand not only teaches combat skills, it teaches aggressiveness.  That is something that is needed.  Controlled aggressiveness that is.  It also teaches you to take physical punishment.  These are good things.


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## poko (4 Feb 2005)

I understand that runing is good and build stimina and all. I do run quite a bit my self  let say about 600 km a year more or less. But i was just trying to make a point as to why the canadian force do not implement some sort of martial art program. It as every benifit a soldier need it teaches you about self control, dicipline and get you in great shape. While running only works out your leg  and  heart martial art work out all of your body. 
As for running away from combat i was joking will trying to make a point.


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## honestyrules (5 Feb 2005)

I have two things to say on this:

1- The modern battlefield is different from the old style: close-counter combat is no longer the key of the battle.

2- ever in exercises, when you have to run to win, to invade or to retreat, you realise why them make you run!!!!!!!!!!!

Honesty


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## honestyrules (5 Feb 2005)

Something else to add up: The Smg (sub-machine gun) is no longer part of the inventory in the CF. (used to clear off trenches and close-quarter combat). Same idea as the martial arts thing! If you have to kill the enemy by hands, you are in deep trouble!

I mean, it is not the way warfare is in modern history!

Honesty


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## Lost_Warrior (5 Feb 2005)

I believe Marines still learn some hand to hand fighting skills.  

When you get the chance, ask a battle hardened marine returning from Iraq what he had to do more.   

Run down streets, from building to building engaging the enemy, or spar hand to hand with him.

Also, I believe some units offer some hand to hand as an "extra" on the side.   It's usually some sort of martial art taught by a trained member of the unit.


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## civvy3840 (5 Feb 2005)

I think hand to hand is a good thing to do on the side. But I don't think they should replace running with hand to hand.That's just my opinion


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## SHELLDRAKE!! (5 Feb 2005)

If you have ideas for a better pt regime that still inludes cardio activity, suggest it up the chain of command as something that can be done maybee once a week.Something like martial arts requires constant different lessons with all pers attending regularly.In your unit, have there ever been someone missing from pt for medical, personal or operational reasons that might miss a lesson?

The idea of "hand to hand" training cannot be implemented into pt for this reason and many others but is available through courses such as unarmed combat courses etc.

Try talking to peri staff for ideas that break up the pt week.Nobody likes running everyday but the reason we do is most likely because noone shows the initiative to plan something else.


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## the 48th regulator (5 Feb 2005)

> Something else to add up: The Smg (sub-machine gun) is no longer part of the inventory in the CF. (used to clear off trenches and close-quarter combat). Same idea as the martial arts thing! If you have to kill the enemy by hands, you are in deep trouble!
> 
> I mean, it is not the way warfare is in modern history!



But we do have a selection on our selector lever call full auto. What would that be used for?

And we will still have to perform trench clearing, and CQ in our "Modern battlefield"

So practicing sizing up for a good pasting does no harm to anyone at all (except for a few bruises and sore hands)

tess


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## Armymedic (5 Feb 2005)

Running as part of a good 5 day pt program should be conduct 2x a week. One of these 2 days should be for approx 50 min at a pace 75% of the troops can comfortably maintain. The other run session should be of a variable speed based on interval training, hills, running interspersed with other exercise (not circuit tng), and the various types of training runs can be rotated over a months period.  The other three periods during the week should include a ruck march (for us who must complete a BFT), a circut tng session and a sports or fun session (swimming, skating, on own, whatever).

Personally I feel martial arts style training can be supplemented into the pt routine. As a start point do a surge of training (day to week long where everyone becomes fam with the skills) and then add into the pt program once or twice a month to maintain skill memory. That way in preparation to an operation or whatever, a small surge of training should bring up the skill level that will hopefully not be required. I personally feel though if you personally want to maintain your martial arts ability to a fighting level, you really should do it at your local club.

To answer the original question...

Running is the basic excises in order to maintain cardio fitness. It is simple, cheap, and with enough practice anyone can do it sufficiently well to enjoy it. The military tends to ruin it by making it unenjoyable by enforcing group cohesiveness. Good, innovated leaders can find ways to make the old run a bit more exciting and by emphasising individual effort (put an effort in good, if you don't bad*...as a runner I can tell) hopefully encourage improvement to all levels of fitness in your group.

So if you think running is bad, why do so many people do it as a hobby and as a means to maintain a healthy lifestyle?  

The answers lie there.

*note-as a det comd in Fd Amb I said that if you could not keep up, thats fine but do not stop running. I put a person on verbal warning for not putting enough effort forth in their pt. The troops heard this, and we didn't have a problem after that. Oh yes, and now a couple years later, that person now runs on their own.


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## bossi (5 Feb 2005)

I can't comment on "hand to hand combat" training, since I don't fight for sport or leisure.

However, in my opinion we fight as a team, therefore train as a team, and should also do physical fitness activities as a team (yes, I'm a hockey fanatic - it's "War On Ice" - and there's nothing I love more than aggressive, full-contact hockey - especially when my team is hammering the other team ... and speaking as a goalie, I'm ashamed of the rule that forbids hitting the goalie when he's out of his crease - I figure I'm fair game if I'm in the corner, and besides - "if ya can't take it, ya shouldn't dish it out ...")



> "In training, I am a great believer in running before you can walk because, by finding out how difficult it is to run, men take a greater interest in the problem of learning to walk. All training must be done through the brain; the bored man absorbs nothing."
> - Lt.-Gen. Sir Brian Horrocks


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## Agamemnon (5 Feb 2005)

Running is more usefull on the modern battlefield but some hand to hand combat cant do any harm...to you that is..


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## Arclite (17 Feb 2005)

I think learning hand to hand would add to a soldier's skills. What if he's shooting at an enemy soldier and runs out of ammo?


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## Freddy Chef (17 Feb 2005)

If you are dismounted, and a vehicle is not immediately available, your *Black Cadillac's* will need engines that are in decent repair for you to get around.

PT wise, I'd rather ruck march. Running I'd rather do during fire and movement; don't have the ruck on my back, and there is someone to *â Å“...close with and destroy...â ?*.

Unarmed Combat is a good back-up/fall-back. After you've cleared a trench (empty mag), you still have your bayonet and rifle butt if another enemy suddenly shows up around the corner. If your weapon gets tangled up at that close range, for whatever reason, your hands and feet are a good contingency.


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## PVT DJ (18 Feb 2005)

I think that close combat is important in a small sense. We have to deal with angry people who are not hostile off the bat and might come up to a fence or a gate and ask for something to the guy nearest or guarding it and then they may become hostile. It might be too close to use a weapon or they might not be a big enough threat, but you might need to bring them down to the ground at some point and hold them down, and not kill them. On a peacekeepig mission in a a building or sopmething. I am posting an opinion on what could happen, it probably has once or twice, I don't want to get held on this, but yes, I think hand to hand combat is important.


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## Kal (18 Feb 2005)

I agree that CQB training is important for the combat arms, but it definately souldn't replace running.  Many  people suggest that if you're close enough to karate chop the bad guy, you should just shoot them, or give 'em showing of mr. bayonet.  This is all well and good in theory, but in the close confines of urban combat one may not be able to ready their weapon in a narrow hallway.  Or if your weapon should fail and the enemy is already has a weapon out or by drawing a secondary weapon too much time may be spent while they are slotting you.  This is where hand-to-hand comes into play.  Anyone can throw a punch, kick, or stab you, that's exactly what the enemy will do to you, so one has to be taught how to counter these attacks.  

Hand-to-hand skills should be taught and excecuted with the idea to kill the enemy and not engage in a sparring match.  While sparring does develop some CQB skills, there is too much "sport leakage" in martial arts.  Martial arts has become too complacent and has developed more with the idea of ring fighting.  CQB training should be exactly what the name emplies.  At the same time, skills taught should be simple but not too simple.  As I said, anyone can punch, but train to go from someone attacking you, to you striking them several time and doing a takedown or throw and finishing the fight.   Like stoppage drills, these skills must be trained regularly to become muscle memory.


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## SHARP WO (18 Feb 2005)

> I can say i been in for 4 year and in that time the only PT we have done was running, ruck march, and circuit trainning.



We run because we must, think back to the platoon flanking, your humping all your gear and ammo, your 500m from the objective, the firebase is running low on ammo, everyone is moving their way to the start line, if H hour is in ten minutes you have to run, you dont want to lose the momentum. Your clearing the objective, a quick sprint and your on the enemy, a casual jog, your a target.

If your opponent is fit, you have to be better. If your opponent is an olympic runner, you have to be better.

SHARP WO


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## paracowboy (18 Feb 2005)

speaking for myself only, I've been deployed overseas three times. Not once have I had to shoot anyone, or run to/away from a gunfight. I HAVE had to beat a few people up, however. (I had a really fun day in Bosnia once.  ) I think it's a good question, and a valid point. I don't want to see a large reduction in running or rucksack marching, but I would like to see more hand-to-gland and more emphasis on weight resistance training. (I needed the extra size I carry around that day.) It doesn't have to come at the expense of 'regular' PT. It can be impromptu, spur of the moment stuff. We simply need more Unarmed Combat Instructors at the lower levels to cover the Army's ass, and check the correct boxes. There are plenty of days when the troops are sitting around bored and bitching. There's no reason why a MCpl/Cpl couldn't grab a few and go over some basics in defending yourself on civvie-street, arrest techniques for peace-keeping Ops, or "This is how you kill, Johnny". 

In the meantime, I heartily recommend everyone to take some form of Martial Art/Unarmed Combat system. For many reasons, fitness being quite low amongst those reasons. Controlled aggression, discipline, enhanced confidence, enhanced situational awareness, fun, the ability to defend yourself and others, these spring to mind before physcial fitness.


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## jazscam (2 Mar 2005)

Paracowboy makes a very good point.

What is more effective to get a detainee undercontrol?   A rifle that if shot will land you in shackles or some hand to hand. 

Now running is very important.   No matter how much skill you have in the ninja department, if you are not in shape you will get your *** handed to you.

A high level of fitness is more important, however, basic hand to hand should be taught also.   But not at the cost of traditional PT, they should complement each other.

J


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## GerryCan (2 Mar 2005)

I like to think of running as a 'Necessary Evil.' It's not something that everyone likes to do or is good at, but it has to be done to stay in shape.
Sure you can go to the gym and do other cardio as a whole or on your own time, but it seems to me that it needs to be done as a group to keep guys in shape.

From my experience, anyone that says "I can't run, but I can ruck all day!"

Bull Shit. The same guys that are always praying for it to be over on a morning run, are usually the same ones falling out on the long marches. Both need to be done to stay effectively fit.

As for hand to hand combat, it is definetely something that should be emphasized more in Battle School(do they still teach it there?) and it could be easily done in Bn more if they ran a few courses every once in awhile.

Pugil would also be something good to carry out every now and then. It's good training if it's done right and it's a good way to get out aggression instead of doing it downtown on friday.


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## chrisf (2 Mar 2005)

GerryCan said:
			
		

> From my experience, anyone that says "I can't run, but I can ruck all day!"
> 
> Bull crap. The same guys that are always praying for it to be over on a morning run, are usually the same ones falling out on the long marches. Both need to be done to stay effectively fit.



Nope, in my case at least it's true... I pronate (My foot turns outward) when I run, resulting it horrible form while running, and resulting in severe and painful cramping in my foot/ankle after a couple of kilometers. For whatever reason, this doesn't happen while walking/rucking, and I'm always able to hold my place in the pack when rucking, and always more then happy to act as marker, as short sprints don't result in the same cramps and pain in the foot that extended jogs/runs do.


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## chrisf (2 Mar 2005)

I should note too... I agree that running is a nessascary evil, when working out on my own, I'll generally run to start the workout, until the pain/cramping occurs, then I'll work out on cardio machines for an hour or two, then back to running until I stop again due to cramping/pain...

When running with a group, the only real option I have is to play through the pain, not really somthing healthy to do, but I never drop out.


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## winchable (2 Mar 2005)

I can honestly say I've never seen so much thought put into basic running.
Interval or fartlek training I can understand but not much beyond monitoring your recovery time for improvement.

But good lord..just..put one foot infront of the other at an increasing pace until you notice yourself breathing heavier...why? Because what else are you going to do at 5 in the morning???

It'd be funny to see this conversationg in real life wouldn't it?

"Sgt. why do we run?"
yeaahhh...


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## Kal (2 Mar 2005)

jazscam said:
			
		

> Now running is very important.  No matter how much skill you have in the ninja department, if you are not in shape you will get your *** handed to you.



Not so, I have a collegue who is on the better side of 300lbs.  Is he in shape?  Nope.  His hand-to-hand and knife combat skills are excellent, though.  However, when it comes to prelonged high intensity traning, he's out of it.


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## Radop (2 Mar 2005)

delavan said:
			
		

> Something else to add up: The Smg (sub-machine gun) is no longer part of the inventory in the CF. (used to clear off trenches and close-quarter combat). Same idea as the martial arts thing! If you have to kill the enemy by hands, you are in deep trouble!
> 
> I mean, it is not the way warfare is in modern history!



Ask that to the guys who went into houses in Afghanistan or the Americains in Iraq.  In the new battlefield, you are fighting more in urban centres and less in the open fields.  The chances of hand to hand combat in fibua situations is a lot higher and now that we seem to bipass the open fields and take control of urban centres, what is the chances that hand to hand is going to increase.

Maybe our training is the problem?  I do think running is important but variety is the spice of life.


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## paracowboy (5 Mar 2005)

Che said:
			
		

> I can honestly say I've never seen so much thought put into basic running.
> Interval or fartlek training I can understand but not much beyond monitoring your recovery time for improvement.
> 
> But good lord..just..put one foot infront of the other at an increasing pace until you notice yourself breathing heavier...why? Because what else are you going to do at 5 in the morning???
> ...


okay, how's this? 

"Why do we Run? 'Cause we're told to. Suck it up."

Better? ;D


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## GerryCan (6 Mar 2005)

Best reply so far lol.


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## mondo (6 Mar 2005)

agreed... run cause you have to, don't question the fact! should be thankful you are enjoying the morning breeze at 5am


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## poko (8 Mar 2005)

I think your missing the point here no body said anything about not running. Runnign is good for you. Just trying to find out what people think about the idear of having martial art to rplace some of the pt.
Plus if you dont ask question how will you learn.
How will the army move forward if nobody ask question (at the right time ofcourse). :warstory:


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## paracowboy (8 Mar 2005)

poko said:
			
		

> I think your missing the point here no body said anything about not running. Runnign is good for you. Just trying to find out what people think about the idear of having martial art to rplace some of the pt.
> Plus if you dont ask question how will you learn.
> How will the army move forward if nobody ask question (at the right time ofcourse). :warstory:


I don't think anybody missed the point, and the general consensus seems to be that Hand-to-Gland IN ADDITION to normal PT is probably the answer (read my first post in this thread). The problem now, is working out the logistics.


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## bobtiji (14 Mar 2005)

well thats a nice question....LOL.

We run because they tell us to..

that's about what would answer to you if you'd ask a mcpl


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## GOMERPYLE (7 Jun 2005)

Hello,

Maybe you can tell me a little bit about your hand to hand training? Like what you mean by hand to hand eh?


From Gomerpyle


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## paracowboy (7 Jun 2005)

hand-to-hand
adjective
involving bodily contact: taking place at close quarters and involving bodily contact

combat
noun
1. fighting: fighting between groups or individuals, especially between armies 
2. fight or struggle: a struggle between opposing individuals or forces

hand-to-hand combat: 
noun
1. fighting between groups or individuals involving bodily contact
2. fight or struggle between opposing individuals or forces taking place at close quarters and involving bodily contact

fisticuffs
plural noun 
fighting with fists: fighting using the fists ( archaic or humorous )


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## GOMERPYLE (7 Jun 2005)

poko said:
			
		

> I can say i been in for 4 year and in that time the only PT we have done was running, ruck march, and circuit trainning. Nice and all but why does the canadien force does not make Self defance/ hand to hand combat   part of the regular PT.   What i get from this is that if there ever a enemy that want to fight with me i was not train to fight but to run away.     ???



NICE,

I agree. This country is being run by a bunch of greedy crooks and now they have full exsposure,YEAA . With there heads up there you know what!But base london used to be well a equip, ie: swimmning pool, circuit training area ,out door range, nice. Till they move the RCR to northen ontario Grrrrr....... You should joined the police force they treat there men better.

from:Gomerpyle


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## Northern Touch (8 Jun 2005)

GOMERPYLE said:
			
		

> NICE,
> 
> I agree. This country is being run by a bunch of greedy crooks and now they have full exsposure,YEAA . With there heads up there you know what!But base london used to be well a equip, ie: swimmning pool, circuit training area ,out door range, nice. Till they move the RCR to northen ontario Grrrrr....... You should joined the police force they treat there men better.
> 
> from:Gomerpyle



Dude, what on earth are you talking about?  Greedy cooks with full exposure to London to the police force?  Maybe you could rephrase just a bit.


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## Island Ryhno (8 Jun 2005)

Sometimes I swear to god, there are people from another planet posting on this forum. Anyhow, in regards to hand to hand etc, it's a very, very good workout but it can in no way replace running, nothing replaces running. I think some sort of hand to hand should be mandatory in the forces, that's forces wide, everyone gets a basic Krav Maga say that they do 2 times a week. The combat arms folks do it 3 times a week and incorporate Krav Maga, Combat Sambo, Judo etc. There is definetly a need for unarmed combat training, I would much prefer to shoot a guy a couple of hundred yards away. Put in the situation where I had to fight, I'm glad that I personally know how to handle myself, and I'm sure most guys would be. Alas it is sure to be foiled by logistics.  8)


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## 1feral1 (8 Jun 2005)

About hand to hand....

Back in 1998 not long after I was posted into my last unit (RAA), the RSM had organised PT one morning, which consisted of a 1/2 hour run followed by circuit trg, and one of the circuits was boxing, WITHOUT gloves, and was full on. After just one of the RSM's sessions my knuckles were bleeding, and not from a punching bag, but a 110kg barking monster of an RSM. I wondered what I had got myself into.

Wes


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## Uberman (9 Jun 2005)

Wouldn't some sort of basic hand to hand training come in handy during FIBUA training - or whatever they call it now. I would think that this type of warfare has brought the trenches even closer to the soldier.


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## mover1 (9 Jun 2005)

A British study done in the 80's proved that people who ran and had good cardio vascular training and were physically fit. They were less likely to get hurt at work and were less likely to become ill. As well it proved that people who did fall ill or were injured were more likely to recover faster than those who did not keep in shape. 

Running is good. It helps run off that extra large double double that you drink each and every day. That is one of the many reasons why we run.


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## canadianblue (9 Jun 2005)

> A British study done in the 80's proved that people who ran and had good cardio vascular training and were physically fit. They were less likely to get hurt at work and were less likely to become ill. As well it proved that people who did fall ill or were injured were more likely to recover faster than those who did not keep in shape.
> 
> Running is good. It helps run off that extra large double double that you drink each and every day. That is one of the many reasons why we run.



I think running has helped me get in better shape, plus in some ways it makes you feel re-energized afterwards. But one thing that constantly pisses me off is people who complain about doing any physical activity, I use to be a police cadet, and any time we had to do 20 pushups, 20 situps, or even a short run their would be people complaining all the time. If you don't like physical fitness why are you even interested in a job were alot of the training is physical fitness training. If you don't like physical exercise once in a while, then forget about getting any job in either LE, Fire, or the Military.

Just had to have a little bit of a rant.


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## Pikache (9 Jun 2005)

Why do we run?

Some Roman guy named Vegetius said something like,
"What can one do, he who arrives to battle out of breath"


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## DannyBoy (7 Sep 2005)

One of my instructors once said " We run, do ruck marches and webbing marches so that each individual soldier maintains a high level of physical fitness so that when the time comes he can perform to the best of his physical capacity on the battlefield"


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## Jaxson (7 Sep 2005)

RoyalHighlandFusilier said:
			
		

> Why do we run?
> 
> Some Roman guy named Vegetius said something like,
> "What can one do, he who arrives to battle out of breath"




Ive heard that saying before, and i agreed to it, now who said that thing about if we actually shoot our rifle we end up in shackles? can you please elaborate on that, were you referring to the situation (a little dispute and you shoot) or are you talking about shooting in general.?


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