# Are there snipers in the reserves?



## Pugnacious

This question came up in the middle of another thread.
http://Army.ca/forums/threads/17953.new;topicseen#new

My extra questions are...Do they exist in the reserves? 
And are the snipers coming from the Regs, or are the reservists trained as Snipers?

I'm trying to join the reserves out here in BC, and would be interested in this field.

Cheers!
P.


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## MJP

INFANTRY FAQ




> Snipers
> 
> Sniper Article  --  http://army.ca/forums/threads/2018.0
> Becoming a Sniper  --  http://army.ca/forums/threads/2009.0
> PPCLI Snipers in Afghanistan  --  http://army.ca/forums/threads/1846.0
> Legit question about snipers  --  http://army.ca/forums/threads/1982.0
> Snipers in the reserves?  --  http://army.ca/forums/threads/1994.0
> .50 cal sniper rifle  --  http://army.ca/forums/threads/1809.0



More specifically-http://army.ca/forums/threads/1994.0


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## Pugnacious

Wow looks like I shook the answer tree when the fruit was ripe. 
Thanx MJP ;D

Cheers!
P.


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## Michael Dorosh

Pugnacious said:
			
		

> I'm trying to join the reserves out here in BC, and would be interested in this field.
> 
> Cheers!
> P.



A word to the wise - when you go to talk to the recruiters, make sure you make your desire to be a sniper very clear to them; it will probably expedite the process and ensure they know exactly how to place you.  If you have to mention two or three times how badly you want to be a sniper, it will pay dividends.


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## Infanteer




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## Pieman

Hey  Pugnacious, 

You want be a Ninja Sniper? PM me if you think you got what it takes.  :blotto:


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## Righty

There are no snipers in the reserves, Don't ask my MCpl. We got a big speech about it! (LMAO)

But if you go regs and want to be a sniper you have to have alot of tought ( I mean tough ) courses. 


My Mcpl also told us how snipers have a sick sense of humor.

*Story time*

 In vietnam there was a VC sniper who saw a lone Allie truck going down a road. So the sniper Shoots out the front wheel. Unkown to the allie truck they get out and repair the flat tire. So they get going down the road about 50 feet and the sniper shoots out the front tire again. Pissed off the G.I's shoot into the the surrounding land at anger. They fix the tire and get about another 50 feet and the sniper shoots out the front tire again. The G.I. steps out in a rage and the sniper shoots him in the head.


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## Pugnacious

Good advice Mike.   

When I talked to a recruter today I made sure to mention my interests in Sniper work, and also saying in the same breath, 'and no I'm not some nut job.' ;D  
Hey said that there are some snipers in the reserve units in our area.  
I think he said some come from the Regs.

Who knows maybe I'm a bad shot, but I won't know 'till I'm there. 
At least it is a thought that will get me through basic.

Cheers!
P.


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## Michael Dorosh

Pugnacious said:
			
		

> Good advice Mike.
> 
> When I talked to a recruter today I made sure to mention my interests in Sniper work, and also saying in the same breath, 'and no I'm not some nut job.' ;D
> Hey said that there are some snipers in the reserve units in our area.
> I think he said some come from the Regs.
> 
> Who knows maybe I'm a bad shot, but I won't know 'till I'm there.
> At least it is a thought that will get me through basic.
> 
> Cheers!
> P.



At your next recruiting interview, you should probably wear a complete uniform - see if you can find one at a local surplus store, and sew lots of stripes on the sleeves; they will be impressed by your sense of style and respect for the uniform.


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## combat_medic

You know, I defy anyone to name me a reserve sniper who trained as a reservist and was tasked in a reserve sniper cell as a reservist. Never have I heard anything other than complete heresay or the "friend of a friend" story, but no one has any real proof that any reservist in the entire CF is a serving sniper. There is no position for it, there is no allotment for it and there's no funding for it. Reserve units do not have Recce platoons to attach to Rifle Battalions which would necessitate the presence of a single sniper det. No matter what kind of hot shot you may think you are with a rifle, you might as well be praying to be a Pathfinder or JTF assaulter in the reserves. Also, you need to tell whatever recruiter you spoke to to give their head a shake, because they're so full of $hit that their eyes must be brown. Why in the name of God would a reservist be filling a sniper task when the guys in the Regs are falling over themselves to get on the course to occupy the 4 sniper positions per battalion in the regs.

Yes, if you do the math - 4 snipers per battalion times 9 infantry battalions in the Regs = 36 soldiers in the entire CF who are occupying sniper positions. You might as well buy a lottery ticket and stand out in Stanley Park with a lightning rod, because you have a better chance of winning the lottery and being hit by lightning than being a sniper in the reserves.


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## Jarnhamar

When your a sniper do you still get to choose your own rifle?


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## Pugnacious

Speaking of brown eyes...  
Yah sure Mike. Hahahaha.

And why not dress up as a Ninja, and slither into the office whirling foam nunchucks while I'm at it?   :dontpanic:

LOL!
P.


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## MJP

There are more than four sniper positions in the Bn right now.   But they are also in the process of revamping the sniper cells within each Bn(at least here), and the total numbers are a getting up there.   We've heard whispers of 17 man cells but again take it for whats it's worth from the grapevine.  But I digress and will stop taking this thread off topic


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## The_Falcon

combat_medic said:
			
		

> No matter what kind of hot shot you may think you are with a rifle, you might as well be praying to be a Pathfinder or JTF assaulter in the reserves.



Actually The Maple Leaf has some articles about Reservist attending and passing Pathfinder.  The QOR have two spots for the course in Nov


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## Michael Dorosh

Pugnacious said:
			
		

> Speaking of brown eyes...
> Yah sure Mike. Hahahaha.
> 
> And why not dress up as a Ninja, and slither into the office whirling foam nunchucks while I'm at it?  :dontpanic:
> 
> LOL!
> P.



You magnificent bastard, that's what *I* was going to do!  Would suck if we showed up at the recruiters wearing the same outfit.


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## combat_medic

Hatchet: Yeah, I heard about that lone Pathfinder reservist. However, as far as I understand, he's had at least a good decade behind his belt with a myriad of reg force courses, including Para, Recce, LZ/DZ and Mil Freefall. In any case, I think Pugnacious, short of spending the rest of his career with the QoR and NOT in BC as he stated, has as high a chance of being a pathfinder as being a sniper.

MJP: When did they chance that? Last organizational chart I saw shows 1 Sniper det per Bn in Recce Pl. Is that just a trial, or are they changing SOPs/Bn Organizations?


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## MJP

It's been in for a while...your chart probably showed mortars too eh? 

I checked today and I was off by one the sniper cell/section for the Bn is 18 pers.


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## Pugnacious

I'll find out when I get there. 
And if I can do it I will. ;D

Bookasha!
P.


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## Michael OLeary

While the desire to eventually be trained as a sniper or pathfinder is admirable, looking for means to set the conditions to achieve that goal while in the recruiting process is futile. Other than processing you for the infantry, no recruiter has the influence to improve your chances of either of those specialties, or any others in the trade. Once you are trade qualified for the infantry and posted to a unit, the unit you have been placed in will dictate your training opportunities and your performance and personal attributes will be the primary factor that influences those choices.

As for Pathfinders or Snipers in the Reserve, I know of no units with establishments for either. While some units may be gaining Recce Platoon tasks under the Reserve Restructure, I have not yet seen any indication that those platoon establishments include hard sniper positions. The Regular Force exerts considerable effort to select, prepare and train soldiers for the sniper positions in the line battalions. It is unlikely there is any plan to diversify valuable space on such a course to reserve units when the training is costly (from a Reserve unit perspective) to maintain and would be little or never used.

As for the QOR Pathfinder, that would be a Reserve Soldier who happened to get a Pathfinder course (which makes him probably one out of 5000 or so Reserve Infantry personnel), not a unit with a Pathfinder task and entitlements to regular course vacancies (someone can correct me if I am mistaken). I expect it came about more though the QOR affiliation with CPC, which allowed them to fill a short-notice vacancy, rather than any other means. A known soldier who was already on tasking with CPC at the time perhaps? 

And with the Regular battalions, even at 18 hard sniper positions each, that only means 162 positions and probably not many Privates among them. Once established they'll probably have about a 25% turnover annually for all causes (remusters, releases, promotions to appointments back in rifle companies, etc). That means the Battalion may need about 5 new snipers each year out of the 300+ soldiers in the rifle companies. With the reduction of the Combat Support companies, there are fewer jobs outside the rifle companies for all soldiers to desire and pursue, so competition will be strong.


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## D-n-A

This is kind of on subject with snipers, I was wondering, does Canada have any "designated marksman" like the US Army and Marines.


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## MJP

D-n-A said:
			
		

> This is kind of on subject with snipers, I was wondering, does Canada have any "designated marksman" like the US Army and Marines.



Well deployed yes, and they should be issued with the C7 CT.  We'll have one in my PL when I go probably in Wpns Det.







Specs here
http://www.diemaco.com/

Excolis had mentioned it before, in the infantry forum that he had one of his soldiers as a designated marksmen for ROTO 0 Athena...I'll see if I can dig it up and grab the link.


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## Armymedic

Indeed, I was in Bosnia roto 13 with a Lt from QOR who passed the pathfinder course.



			
				combat_medic said:
			
		

> Hatchet: Yeah, I heard about that lone Pathfinder reservist. However, as far as I understand, he's had at least a good decade behind his belt with a myriad of reg force courses, including Para, Recce, LZ/DZ and Mil Freefall. In any case, I think Pugnacious, short of spending the rest of his career with the QoR and NOT in BC as he stated, has as high a chance of being a pathfinder as being a sniper.
> .



And no he isn't that old, and of course had to get three of those courses to qualify for the course, all at CPC thru the QOR.


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## Infanteer

Is giving a Reservist a Sniper or Pathfinder qualification worth the resources.  Will the military get a return on its investment from a soldier who parades about 6-8 days out of a month and belongs to a unit that has a hard time pulling off Platoon and Company attacks, let alone being able to utilize the high level skill set that a Sniper or Pathfinder would have?


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## Michael Dorosh

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Is giving a Reservist a Sniper or Pathfinder qualification worth the resources.  Will the military get a return on its investment from a soldier who parades about 6-8 days out of a month and belongs to a unit that has a hard time pulling off Platoon and Company attacks, let alone being able to utilize the high level skill set that a Sniper or Pathfinder would have?



Aren't you the one who said "train for war?"

Shall we train with the goal of doing company attacks in Wainwright next month, or train with the mindset that our skills might be needed in North Korea, Panama, Haiti, North German Plain, et al, six months from now?


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## Infanteer

> Aren't you the one who said "train for war?"





I am becoming so quotable, ain't I.



> Shall we train with the goal of doing company attacks in Wainwright next month, or train with the mindset that our skills might be needed in North Korea, Panama, Haiti, North German Plain, et al, six months from now?



Exactly.   There are dedicated Sniper and Pathfinder/Recce assets in the Regular Force, which can manage the high degree of specialization that these skill sets require.   A reservist would probably see these skills degrade as he went back to a "meat-and-potatos" reserve unit.

I would rather see the resources and manpower dedicated to having a reserve sub-unit trained to a reasonably cohesive level, opening the door to deployment and greater training oppurtunities.  A reserve unit is much more likely to man an AOR in a Peace Support Operation or take on a defensive perimeter if mobilized on a war footing then conducting long range sniping and recce missions; leave that the the regulars.


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## Excolis

three are snipers in the reserves.  the rsm for the essex and kent scottish is sniper qualified, and the previous one was also.  the old rsm had his pathfinders badge. ranger tab, wings from all over the place.  i am not sure if they got trained in the reserves though.... hmm i will have to find out now


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## Michael OLeary

Pugnacious said:
			
		

> My extra questions are...Do they exist in the reserves?
> And are the snipers coming from the Regs, or are the reservists trained as Snipers?
> 
> I'm trying to join the reserves out here in BC, and would be interested in this field.



While there may be sniper qualified personnel in some Reserve units, I don't think that addresses the intent of the original question.

The fact that one or more personnel may have transferred to the Reserves with such qualifications, or in the rare instances of a serving reservist getting the opportunity to be trained as Reg F recce/pathfinder/sniper, etc. does not imply that these specialties have established positions and training entitlements in Primary Reserve units. 

Pugnacious - Joining the Reserves in expectation of becoming a qualified sniper is a rather false hope. Your best bet in the Reserves is to pursue the Basic Recce course and to join your unit's rifle team to develop your marksmanship skills. Doing well with those opportunities may help you build a foundation of skills which could assist you in pursuing a sniper position in the Regular Force, though it is by no means a confirmed edge, everything will still depend on your performance in the Reg Force battalion at the time.


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## excoelis

Hi y'all.

As far as the ubiquitous Reserve Pathfinder is concerned you guys finally got the facts 'almost' right.  Sorry, I was away for a bit and didn't get a chance to twist the belt in the feedway of the inevitable 'runaway gun' speculation.  

He's a friend of mine - if anyone wants autographs I can hook you up - and he completed the course over two tries in between his phases of Officer trng.  God bless'im for hanging in there and proving the previously unthinkable, to some unbelievable, and yet others unnecessary.

WRT the latter I can tell you in no uncertain terms that my door wasn't beaten of the hinges with people lining up to get beasted for 3 months in the off chance that they may be one of between 1 and 10 lucky or good enough to hoist the torch.  Sad really.  There are, of course, a myriad of reasons not to do it.  Not the least of which, for my boys anyway, are family obligations and the recent return from A'stan.  So.............when the reg Bdes don't fill the measly 10 or so spots per area that they are allotted......what harm is there in the non-para or reserves stepping up to the plate and taking their best shot at the title?  Successfull or not, I guarantee you they will definitely be an asset to their unit (or more) when all is said and done.  Not only will they hone existing skills and learn new ones, they will learn a whole lot about themselves.

Anyway, before I start ranting I'll leave you with this thought.  DON'T FEAR FAILURE!!!  I've seen many a capable man stand down in the face of adversity in the off chance that he should lose face.  REMEMBER 'THE MAN IN THE ARENA' QUOTE!!!!

I fought long and hard to get on the course.  I finally did it to prove to my troops (and myself) that it could be done.

I'm employed in the role, I'm teaching on the course this year......................

...........and I look forward to seeing ANYONE who is willing and lucky enough to give it a shot.

The biggest hurdle is the pre-reqs.  Work towards meeting them, and with any luck at that time the situation will be the same (or dare I say better?) and you too may get a shot regardless of your employment.

Imagine....... one of the hardest courses in the CF......we can only run it once a year (MAYBE)...........and lately we have a hard time filling thirty or so spots out of the entire CF    

It's fuckin' scandalous.


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## combat_medic

Excoelis: Is the lack of candidates because of a lack of interest/availability, or is it because so few soldiers have all the pre-reqs? In addition, wouldn't many of the skills be wasted on a candidate from a non-ariborne capable unit? How would they maintain it if they can never jump? With no para-capabilities, wouldn't the money on a reserve candidate be better spent on an advanced Recce course?


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## excoelis

I apologise for the hijack to the sniper topic but here we go...............

Reasons?  Many.  Every case is different.  At the end of the day though there is a whole lot of talk, but not a lot of troops seeing it through to the end.  

Pre-reqs are a hurdle - Para, Recce, JLC - But the latter two can be waived in certain circumstances.  Don't bet on it though.  If you want the course strive to complete the pre-reqs first.

As far as a waste of money.  Who gives a fuck really?  We can debate the lofty issues of Generals all day to no avail or we can take a shot at whatever the hell we can get our greasy hands on.  I thought I made it clear but I will reiterate - I would rather see Pte I-can't-find-my-own-ass-with-a-map-and-written-directions show up on the course than see the spot go unfilled.  At least that soldier will learn 'something'.  The course is an excellent opportunity to hone ALL of ones fieldcraft, leadership skills, patrol battle procedure, nav, demo, comms, mountain ops, amphib, etc......  How can that possibly be wasted in a reserve unit????

Here's one for you to debate - I would send a willing soldier from my platoon who was getting out in 6 months if the spot was going to be unfilled.  Why?  Cuz all army skills aside it would teach that person a whole lot about their strengths and weaknesses and just plain make 'em a more well-rounded person.  How's that for wasting the Army's money ;D

The para related side of it - although the very essence of the role - is not the ONLY skill taught/honed/exploited.

I'm not sure of the exact timeline (I will confirm later) but I'm pretty sure there is a point where the sending unit is no longer responsible for the cost of the course.  I believe it roughly equates to - yeah, he put in an effort and didn't just show up or get sent against his will.


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## Jarnhamar

So to sum things up regarding the sniper question:

Yes there are sniper qualified soldiers in the reserves.
Theres a 99.9% chance these sniper quailified soldiers got their course while they were in the regular force.
You have a better chance being president of canada then you do being a new private in the reserves and going on a sniper course.
If a platoon commander is so inclined, he can designate someone as the platoon marksman.
There are times when your on a reserve ex you may be designated/tasked as the platoon sniper with the ol'C7.
If you want to be a sniper so you can tell people your a sniper, your a dork  

Reathfinders
I think in the reserve world a unit would rather have their soldiers teaching classes filling the gaps than taking speciality training? A master Corporal can spend a summer teaching new recruits rather then taking a pathfinder course where as theres a good chance the soldier will fail, leave for the regs or something of the like. 
It's great to have these courses in the reserves and i agree with it 100% but i think on a higher level their concerns/opinion lies elsewhere.


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## Michael OLeary

Good summation Ghost, one final real world point from the Reserve unit perspective: 

When Reserve soldiers attend Reg Force courses, it is usually the Reserve unit that must pay the wages and TD. When a Reserve unit is funded for 35 (or so) training days per person based on average parade strength, sending a soldier on a 40 training day course costs 56 days pay (once you include weekends). And that's not considering any days given the soldier to prepare for an advanced course. That requirement taken from the unit budget cuts into every other soldier's opportunities for training.


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## McG

Ghost778 said:
			
		

> Theres a 99.9% chance these sniper quailified soldiers got their course while they were in the regular force.


All the reserve snipers that I have ever met were police snipers (and that is where they were trained).


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## Pugnacious

Nice to finaly get some real answers besides the typical peanut gallery banter...of old timers barfing on newbies.

BTW: I'm interested in it becuase I think it is an interesting military job, not because I want to tell people about it.
If I wanted something to brag to friends about  I'd become a cook...as they get medals and such.  ;D hahaha

Also I'd be willing to pay for my own courses, and equipment, as long as it was Canadian forces approved, and applicable.
I'm looking for training, and a job that represents my abilities, and efforts, not a hand out.

Thanx again for the info, and the great links.
Cheers!
P.


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## Fishbone Jones

> Nice to finaly get some real answers besides the typical peanut gallery banter...of old timers barfing on newbies.



Or from all the newbie, JTFninjasniper civvie wannabe's that don't have the merest smick or experience to know what the hell they're talking about, but go and provide (mostly wrongful) answers anyway. At least most of the old guys barfing on stupid newbie questions has at least a modicum of BTDT. Sometimes they should be forgiven for their lack of patience after having answered the same questions time and again because the, supposed, computer literate kids today don't seem to know how to use the search function. Most newbies here get taken to task because of their smart mouthed attitude, or because they gave a stupid, no nothing answer or snide remark to someone else, not because they asked a DECENT, reasearched question.


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## Ex-Dragoon

Gee Pugnacious you really want your future questions don't you.  :


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## OLD SCHOOL

You want to avoid seeing the barfing?...You will be buried in the stuff before you get to Basic Sniper training. :-X

An eager recruit, upon being barfed on, will pick out the best chunks and wolf them down all the while asking for more. Catch my drift?


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## Jarnhamar

Pugnacious stop.
I guarentee if you join the army and are still a member on this site OR even if you just hang around here as a civilian for a while you will say the exact same thing when someone wanders in here and starts asking about the navyseals, JTF, snipers, whatever.

People always wander in here now and then and bring it up. Thats no big deal. 99% of the time they are doorknobs who don't even come close to going to the recruiting office.   Do you think answering the same question 70 times for someone who wont even come close to signing up is a waste of time? I know I do. For sake of argument lets say your the 1%. You asked a questionand were answered, drop it or else in the future the only people answering you will be the peanut gallery.

Why do old timers barf on newbies? I'm not an old timer by any stretch of the word but i'll take a guess.. If you handle all the newbies with kid gloves and lead them on, "ohhhhh you MIGHT get a sniper course in the reserves...." then they stick around and ask question after question after question. The experienced guys get fed up and stop posting, leaving guys with no clue answering your questions. Guys who've "heard something from a friend who knew a guy".

If you can't handle someone comming down on you a little hard and be able to brush it off then your not going to be a good soldier because the army is all about people comming down hard on you for what you think is little stuff.


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## Pieman

> An eager recruit, upon being barfed on, will pick out the best chunks and wolf them down all the while asking for more. Catch my drift?


MMMMM....reminds me of McDonalds for some reason. 

Don't worry Ghost, Red Ninja Sniper can take anything and will have no trouble asking for seconds.


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## Infanteer

Kids, the ninja thing your little gang has going is getting old.


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## D-n-A

Before being called a nintendoninjasupersnipercommando used to be a insult, but you guys just embrace it an love it and made a club.


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## 12alfa

DNA, do I know you from another battlefield?

12Alfa


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## Pieman

> Before being called a nintendoninjasupersnipercommando used to be a insult, but you guys just embrace it an love it and made a club.


Yup.


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## Pugnacious

Nothing dished out can be worse then a MRE...HAHAHA!

First off one must understand that I take everything here with a grain of salt, as it is THE INTERNET folks.
Besides which...I am a proud Ninja Sniper Civilain!  'Reed that bends in wind is seldom broken'. (insert Japanese flute music) ;D

Here is an idea if one is tired of answering questions then simply skip the page, and leave it to those with more energy.
Or maybe add it to the recruting faq section, and simply point people there.  Or even copy paste an answer from a saved file..so you don't have to repeate yourself over and over getting carpal tunnel etc.

Once again thanx to those that have answered my questions, and shared the links, you wouldn't believe how much help it has actualy been for me, and lead me to lots of other neat areas that I had not seen before.  I believe that is the point of this info great board after all.  Esp' since we are left to be our own carrier officers in this Army. I hope my question helps others also.   

Into the fog slips the Red Ninja Sniper civilain...

Cheers!
P.


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## Fishbone Jones

Well I think the question has been more than answered.


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## Arnold

I am a Reserve Infantier and I was wondering if anyone here who is reserve has done the sniper course?  I have heard rumours of reserve snipers and that it is extremely extremely rare for a reservist to become one I also know a guy who claimed to have been offered the course.  Anyways my question is this has anyone here actually been on a sniper course as a reservist wether they have passed or not isn't the issue i was just wondering what the chances of ever getting this course are or if it even exists?  Thanks for your help


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## Fishbone Jones

Welcome to army.ca.

One of the valuable tools here, is the 'Search' function. If you use it, the 'Advance Search' works better.

It will also take you to a large number of threads that have discussed your question and topic on previous occassions, when you type in the myriad of search criteria on the subject.

Good huntng.


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