# Proper Use of Post-Nominals



## Tibbson (4 Feb 2014)

I've been poking around this forum for a few months now, commenting occasionally, and I've noticed that generally speaking it's frequented by people that are pretty knowledgeable or who possess the sufficient degree of common sense required to form a sentence.  Of course, there are always exceptions but by and large thats what I've notice.  

At the same time though I've struck by the number of people who do not know how to use post-nominals after their name, specifically "CD".  I'm constantly seeing people who have a signature block of "_Name_, CD1" or even "_Name_, CD2".  One would think that someone in long enough to have been awarded a bar or two to their CD would know that the post-nominal remains *"CD"* regardless of how many subsequent awards one recieves.  I'm posted this summer and one of my guys at work recommended a real estate agent but when I looked him up online I was struck that he billed himself as "_Joe Agent_, CD1".  Needless to say I will think twice about engaging an agent who obviously caters to the military but who does not correctly form his signature block with a military post-nominal that he is entitled to and wishes to use.

Ok, I'm off my soap box.  It's just one of those little things that rub me the wrong way.


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## Eye In The Sky (4 Feb 2014)

Yeah I see that in signature blocks at work sometimes.

The reference seems pretty clear to me:  

POSTNOMINALS

Members may use the post-nominal letters "CD". The post-nominals are not affected by the award of clasps.


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## George Wallace (4 Feb 2014)

LOL.....I had a business card from Penny and Penny or Penny and Wright, whatever.....which had three lines of Post-Nominals after their name.  Most were those ones that one could 'purchase' from a Polish Duke....but still hilarious to read.  Always a souvenir to keep.... ;D


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## Lightguns (4 Feb 2014)

OK, so you are not going to use a real estate agent because you do not like the way he bills his "CD"? Right?  :facepalm:

The agent that sold my house was deeply in bed with the local corrupt mayor whom I disliked intensely.  That agent was also a top performer who sold, I went with him and sold my house well above the value in the year following the Cons monkeying with the markets.  Made a killing I did.  

Protocol is protocol but never let it interfere with a business decision when your cash is at stake.  Interestingly, my agent uses "CD2" as well. ;D


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## DAA (4 Feb 2014)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> The agent that sold my house was deeply in bed with the local corrupt mayor whom I disliked intensely.  That agent was also a top performer who sold, I went with him and sold my house well above the value in the year following the Cons monkeying with the markets.  Made a killing I did.
> 
> Protocol is protocol but never let it interfere with a business decision when your cash is at stake.  Interestingly, my agent uses "CD2" as well. ;D



When it comes to home sale, it's all about $$$ in your pocket or to your credit!  

So I think that when someone uses the "CD" post nominal and feels compelled to add a # after it, they are merely qualifying themselves.  A CD to members of the CF is a CD.  But when you can easily recognize the differences (ie; CD=12, CD1=22 and CD2=32+), it sometimes makes a bit of a difference, especially when it comes to marketting oneself to he masses.


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## George Wallace (4 Feb 2014)

Wait until you go overseas.  In Germany, the wife of a Doctor is known as "Frau Dr _________".  So there the spouse wears their spouse's Post-Nominals. Sharing the wealth, I suppose..... ;D


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## comicnut (4 Feb 2014)

I'm sure there is some literal wealth sharing there as well   ;D


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## Old EO Tech (6 Feb 2014)

Yes CD1/2 annoys me too, even worse are the people that list awards that have no post nominal like CPSM or SSM :-/


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## Tibbson (6 Feb 2014)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> OK, so you are not going to use a real estate agent because you do not like the way he bills his "CD"? Right?  :facepalm:



Yep, for that reason mostly but not only for that reason.  Would you go do a Physician who calls himself "Doktor Jones" or who lists his qualification as "Dr Jones, EmD"?   If a real estate agent has a military background and wants to appeal to the military community then how he uses his post-nominals speaks volumes of his competence.


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## DAA (6 Feb 2014)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Wait until you go overseas.  In Germany, the wife of a Doctor is known as "Frau Dr _________".  So there the spouse wears their spouse's Post-Nominals. Sharing the wealth, I suppose..... ;D



When I worked in the ME, if they had an Engineering degree of some sort, they used to prefix their business cards with "Eng __________"  and used to introduce each other as "Oh, have you met Engineer _____"   :facepalm:


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## Pusser (7 Feb 2014)

Canadian Honours 101

There are three classes of honours:

1) Orders - societies of merit
2) Decorations - specific acts of merit or bravery
3) Medals - long service, service in certain areas (largely just for showing up), everybody who meets defined standard criteria gets one

Only the first two entitle the recipient to post-nominal letters (i.e. orders and decorations) and as has already been said, the number of awards of the same decoration do not change the post-nominals.  I think the reason we see this so often, is because that's what appears on a member's MPRR.  However, the MPRR, is a record, not a protocol guide.  The only reason you see "CD1," "CD2," etc. there is because in that context, it makes sense to do so.  In other words, it's a code.  If you think "CD2" is bad on a business card, how about a tombstone?  I was at the Beechwood National Military Cemetery awhile ago where I saw exactly that, literally engraved in stone for posterity.  You would think that the folks running the place would make a point of ensuring that things like that were done properly.

Another point to keep in mind is that although post-nominals are often simply the first letters of each word in the name of the award (e.g. MSM - Meritorious Service Medal), this is not always the case.  "CD" is a good example.  I have seen several examples where people have stated that the name is the "Canada Decoration," but in fact, the proper name is the Canadian Forces Decoration.

Another interesting tidbit on the CD is that by strict definition, it should actually be a medal and not a decoration.  In fact, it's place in the Order of Precedence is that of a medal, so perhaps there should be no post-nominals at all?    However, it's worth noting that the CD actually replaced five different long service awards, at least two of which had been decorations (the ones that had been awarded to Reserve officers - Regular officers did not receive long service awards).  This, combined with the fact that King George VI (who took a very active interest in the creation of honours) wanted it to be a decoration - so it is, because the King said so.  When the CD was created, there was some concern that by making it a decoration, mere common "other ranks" would get post-nominals (horrors!) and at one point the RCAF actually proposed getting rid of them, but the Kings wishes prevailed.


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## medicineman (7 Feb 2014)

Old EO Tech said:
			
		

> Yes CD1/2 annoys me too, even worse are the people that list awards that have no post nominal like CPSM or SSM :-/



Or people that put OSJ after their name in everything they sign outside of St John Ambulance.  Incidentally, most people that toss the OSJ there should be SB/SS St J...the O is for "Officers" of the Order, not "Order", much like an MMM isn't hte same as an OMM.  I'm an SB (Serving Brother) St J, and the only time it gets attached to my name is for official correspondence within the Order of St John or St John Ambulance.  When you get invested, you're told that...many don't read that fine print.   My CV has my professional designation and CD with my SB St J in brackets, and even then, depending what I'm using it for, I leave it off and just make reference to it in the fluff section.  Even though I'm entitled to it, my CD isn't even listed on my office business/appointment cards.

George, not meaning to sound TOO pedantic, but Dr isn't a post nominal, it's a title...the MD or MB/ChB or PhD are the post nominals (after name)  .

 :2c:

MM


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## Journeyman (7 Feb 2014)

medicineman said:
			
		

> I'm an SB .....


Hmmmm......I always thought that was abbreviated "SOB."


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## medicineman (7 Feb 2014)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Hmmmm......I always thought that was abbreviated "SOB."



So you've seen my other CV then ?   ;D

MM


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## Gorgo (10 Feb 2014)

My suggestion would be to use the phrase "...and Bar" like they do with medals in Britain, i.e. "CD and Bar" or "CD and Two Bars."

Just my  :2c:


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## slayer/raptor (10 Feb 2014)

There are a lot of post-nominals that should be just for a particular situation.

Like rmc, is an official post-nominal if you graduated the four-pillars under the ROTP.  But you don't see many Officers in the CAF writing rmc after their name.


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## Pusser (11 Feb 2014)

Fred Herriot said:
			
		

> My suggestion would be to use the phrase "...and Bar" like they do with medals in Britain, i.e. "CD and Bar" or "CD and Two Bars."
> 
> Just my  :2c:



Although you often see this in books or other sources (usually where it's important to indicate subsequent awards), it's still not correct in the strictest sense - even in Britain.


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## Gorgo (11 Feb 2014)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Although you often see this in books or other sources (usually where it's important to indicate subsequent awards), it's still not correct in the strictest sense - even in Britain.



I honestly didn't know that, Pusser.  Do they just use the basic post-nominals, i.e. "CD"?


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## eliminator (11 Feb 2014)

It seems to vary from country to country. Here's an example regarding the Australian Conspicious Service Cross:



> Recipients have the post-nominals of CSC. Those awarded a bar or bars may also use ‘and Bar’ or ‘and Bars’ after their name.



https://www.itsanhonour.gov.au/honours/awards/medals/conspicuous_service_cross.cfm


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## Calvillo (14 Dec 2018)

Hello,

Is it appropriate to use a post-nominal from a private organization in a military setting? I know someone who puts his civilian, private certification on his name. The organization is not even located in Canada and I know that he got that certification on his civilian job. Example is below.

*Lt(N)/Ltv John Doe, CD, PMP*
Executive Officer, HMCS _Whatever_


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## Eye In The Sky (14 Dec 2018)

I'm not sure if the CAF 'signature block standard' is the same as the TB one, but it is laid out here in Appendix E: Email Signature Blocks.

Line one: The sender's name, which may include a rank or a designation when the rank or designation is a requirement for the continuation of the performance of the duties of the employee's position.


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## Gunner98 (14 Dec 2018)

For DND - Senior Executive Writing Guide - Format for Signature Blocks in Correspondence

Ref: http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-defence-admin-orders-directives-1000/1000-3.page


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## Blackadder1916 (15 Dec 2018)

Calvillo said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> Is it appropriate to use a post-nominal from a private organization in a military setting? I know someone who puts his civilian, private certification on his name. The organization is not even located in Canada and I know that he got that certification on his civilian job. Example is below.
> 
> ...




It's in A-AD-200-000/AG-000, The Heritage Structure of the Canadian Forces

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/military-history/history-heritage/heritage-manual/chapter-11.html#11-19


> POST-NOMINALS AND CIVIL ACADEMICS
> 
> 19.  Post-nominals are sets of letters that are displayed after one’s name to denote certain honours, appointments, qualifications, or fellowships. Post-nominals are listed according to a specific order. In the case of foreign honours awarded to CAF members, only appointments to Commonwealth orders carry the right to use post-nominals. Foreigners who use post-nominals should have the use of their titles respected.
> 
> ...



While you didn't detail the type of circumstances in which this officer calls himself a "pimp" (I had to look it up and phonetically used it here as an acronym), in most cases it should be omitted.  I have, on numerous occasions when still serving, seen a number of officers (usually junior), who added a raft of initials to their business cards.  My opinion is that those who do so should also add "SDS*" to their credentials.



_*Small Dick Syndrome _


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## Rheostatic (15 Dec 2018)

Calvillo said:
			
		

> The organization is not even located in Canada and I know that he got that certification on his civilian job.


PMI operates in Canada. Also the certification would not have come from his civilian employer, but rather from PMI itself.  

I have met plenty of PMP-certified CAF members, but Blackadder1916 is right, It depends on context. The XO of HMCS Whatever probably has no good reason to identify himself as a PMP in correspondence. If they worked in a project office, that's another story.


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## Nuggs (15 Dec 2018)

The one I noticed recently was RMCC being used as a post-nominal. Drives me insane.


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## dapaterson (15 Dec 2018)

Nuggs said:
			
		

> The one I noticed recently was RMCC being used as a post-nominal. Drives me insane.



...especially since, per the CFOO, the official abbreviation is RMC...


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## Blackadder1916 (15 Dec 2018)

Nuggs said:
			
		

> The one I noticed recently was RMCC being used as a post-nominal. Drives me insane.



Yes, that would be incorrect and irksome.  However. using "rmc" (lowercase only) would be correct for a graduate of that Kingston school.  They even so state on their website. https://www.rmc-cmr.ca/en/registrars-office/rmc-university#rmc

Graduates of the other former military universities can use "rrmc" and "cmr" as the case may be.  Likewise individuals who have completed various commad and staff courses can use "pcsc", "psc", "plsc" and a variety of other lowercase initials.  CFAO 9-48 (if it is still valid) Symbols of Military Qualification was the reference.

The most succinct explanation of why that I've found was from this forum's éminence grise. https://army.ca/forums/threads/34737/post-271647.html#msg271647


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## daftandbarmy (15 Dec 2018)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Yes, that would be incorrect and irksome.  However. using "rmc" (lowercase only) would be correct for a graduate of that Kingston school.  They even so state on their website. https://www.rmc-cmr.ca/en/registrars-office/rmc-university#rmc
> 
> Graduates of the other former military universities can use "rrmc" and "cmr" as the case may be.  Likewise individuals who have completed various commad and staff courses can use "pcsc", "psc", "plsc" and a variety of other lowercase initials.  CFAO 9-48 (if it is still valid) Symbols of Military Qualification was the reference.
> 
> The most succinct explanation of why that I've found was from this forum's éminence grise. https://army.ca/forums/threads/34737/post-271647.html#msg271647



And, for we of the 'short bus' course, 'pmsc' ... which can be made to abbreviate a variety of other amusing phrases


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## PPCLI Guy (15 Dec 2018)

Curious.  If a member were to receive a Bar to their MSM, do the post-nominals change?


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## dangerboy (15 Dec 2018)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Curious.  If a member were to receive a Bar to their MSM, do the post-nominals change?



It does not look like it. From a publication all about the MSM say this



> POST-NOMINALS
> 15. A recipient of the Cross is entitled to use the letters “M.S.C.” after the name of the
> recipient on all occasions when the use of post-nominals is customary.
> 16. A recipient of the Medal is entitled to use the letters “M.S.M.” after the name of
> the recipient on all occasions when the use of post-nominals is customary.



And it has examples of people that have been awarded the bar with the Post-Nominal M.S.M.

http://forces.gc.ca/assets/FORCES_Internet/docs/en/honours-history-medals-chart/meritorious-service-medal.pdf


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## Journeyman (16 Dec 2018)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> ...this forum's éminence grise.


Perhaps he should use that in his signature block;  even if shortened to 'eg' (and mistaken for exempli gratia), he _can_  be seen as a good example, worthy of emulation.


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## Good2Golf (16 Dec 2018)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Curious.  If a member were to receive a Bar to their MSM, do the post-nominals change?



As other mentioned, nope...just like the cringe-worthy mis-use of CD1, CD2, etc. on business cards or in correspondence. :not-again:

Regards
G2G


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## dapaterson (16 Dec 2018)

I think that for the longest serving officer in a unit we need a set of post-nominals.  We can dub them "Senior Officer of the Battalion".


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## Calvillo (16 Dec 2018)

Rheostatic said:
			
		

> PMI operates in Canada. Also the certification would not have come from his civilian employer, but rather from PMI itself.
> 
> I have met plenty of PMP-certified CAF members, but Blackadder1916 is right, It depends on context. The XO of HMCS Whatever probably has no good reason to identify himself as a PMP in correspondence. If they worked in a project office, that's another story.



While the Project Management Institute has many chapters in all over the world, including Canada, the organization itself is chartered and headquartered in Pennsylvania. As well, the certificate is issued in Pennsylvania. 

As for the person in my question, what I meant by he got the certificate from his civilian job instead of the CF was that he was a civilian Project Manager. In the CF, he was not a PM.


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## Navy_Pete (16 Dec 2018)

Calvillo said:
			
		

> While the Project Management Institute has many chapters in all over the world, including Canada, the organization itself is chartered and headquartered in Pennsylvania. As well, the certificate is issued in Pennsylvania.
> 
> As for the person in my question, what I meant by he got the certificate from his civilian job instead of the CF was that he was a civilian Project Manager. In the CF, he was not a PM.



DND also has a set of internal PM qualifications (PMCD). It's based on the PMI structure, but includes specific knowledge of the TB process and other GoC processes that are related to project management so a PMP alone does nothing for you in ADM(Mat).  The PMCD qualification is meaningless outside of DND though, so some people have both.

Personally find that people with a whack of postnominals tend to be kind of knobs. Specific professional ones related to the job at hand are the only ones I pay attention to, and after that have an increasingly negative expectation for everything else tacked on.  When it gets down to a bachelor degree or similar, usually either disregard the person entirely, or assume they will be a speedbump/obstacle to progress.


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## Cloud Cover (16 Dec 2018)

Was QC or KC ever used as postnomials? Harckening back to the CEF in WW1, or the CASF in WW2. I see both Ralston and Rogers were both KC before enlisting ( and Ralston never finished law school before he became KC!).


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## daftandbarmy (16 Dec 2018)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> As other mentioned, nope...just like the cringe-worthy mis-use of CD1, CD2, etc. on business cards or in correspondence. :not-again:
> 
> Regards
> G2G



Which is not allowed.

'Recipients of the Canadian Forces Decoration are entitled to use the post nominal letters "CD". This post-nominal is not affected by the awarding of clasps.'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Forces_Decoration


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## Calvillo (6 Oct 2019)

Ugh, it happens again. The CO of my child's cadet corps just received his CD. Previously he did not put any post-nominal on his signature, but now with his CD his signature becomes:

*Lt(N) Joe Public, CD, P.Eng.*
Commanding Officer, RCSCC _Enterprise_
Department of National Defence / Government of Canada
joe.public@cadets.gc.ca / (212) 867-5309

Is the use of 'P.Eng.' acceptable within DND / GoC standards? If not. is this something I should talk to him about or just let it go?


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## garb811 (6 Oct 2019)

Calvillo said:
			
		

> Ugh, it happens again. The CO of my child's cadet corps just received his CD. Previously he did not put any post-nominal on his signature, but now with his CD his signature becomes:
> 
> *Lt(N) Joe Public, CD, P.Eng.*
> Commanding Officer, RCSCC _Enterprise_
> ...


No, he shouldn't be. Should you talk to him about it? That really should be coming from his CoC not a parent.

A-DH-200-000/AG-000 - THE HERITAGE STRUCTURE OF THE CANADIAN ARMED FORCES


> POST-NOMINALS AND CIVIL ACADEMICS
> 
> 19.Post-nominals are sets of letters that are displayed after one’s name to denote certain honours, appointments, qualifications, or fellowships. Post-nominals are listed according to a specific order. In the case of foreign honours awarded to CAF members, only appointments to Commonwealth orders carry the right to use post-nominals. Foreigners who use post-nominals should have the use of their titles respected.
> 
> ...


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## Jonezy76 (6 Oct 2019)

> 21.DND’s practice is to include only post-nominals related to honours from the Crown and royal appointments; others  (such  as  civil,  academic,  religious  distinctions,  and  fellowships)  are  omitted  except  when  the  post-nominal denotes a qualification directly pertinent to the correspondence (e.g. medical degree in medical advice documents).



So, as an example, one would only use the P.Eng. post-nominal when the correspondence had something to do with engineering?

Similarly, using RSE only when the subject matter applies to your field of expertise, correct?


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## garb811 (6 Oct 2019)

Jonezy76 said:
			
		

> So, as an example, one would only use the P.Eng. post-nominal when the correspondence had something to do with engineering?
> 
> Similarly, using RSE only when the subject matter applies to your field of expertise, correct?


Not sure about RSE as I've never seen any emails with it, but I've also seen Comptrollers use their CGA or other financial post-nominal, medical chits with LPN or NP etc


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## brihard (6 Oct 2019)

garb811 said:
			
		

> Not sure about RSE as I've never seen any emails with it, but I've also seen Comptrollers use their CGA or other financial post-nominal, medical chits with LPN or NP etc



Where the professional/academic designation is pertinent to establishing the qualification underlying the things communicated, in other words...


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## Remius (6 Oct 2019)

Since it is pertinent to our everyday work can we add GBA+ to our post nominals?  Was going to get one for my Velcro sleeve made up...


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## daftandbarmy (6 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Since it is pertinent to our everyday work can we add GBA+ to our post nominals?  Was going to get one for my Velcro sleeve made up...



... as well as the much coveted FORCE Test gong, with bar and snowflake device


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## Old EO Tech (6 Oct 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Where the professional/academic designation is pertinent to establishing the qualification underlying the things communicated, in other words...



Were I work in DGLEPM, since our business is engineering on land equipment, it's common to see P.Eng or PMP etc in signature blocks as it's relevant to what we do all the time.

Jon


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## brihard (6 Oct 2019)

I release tomorrow after about 14 years PRes. (Ret’d) seems a bit ostentatious for someone in his thirties; can I sign stuff ‘Sgt (Pop’d Smk)’?


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## daftandbarmy (6 Oct 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I release tomorrow after about 14 years PRes. (Ret’d) seems a bit ostentatious for someone in his thirties; can I sign stuff ‘Sgt (Pop’d Smk)’?



No, but you CAN park in the 'Veterans Only' spots at the outlet mall (because, you know, those pregnant women and disabled people have had it too good for so long now )


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## Remius (6 Oct 2019)

Old EO Tech said:
			
		

> Were I work in DGLEPM, since our business is engineering on land equipment, it's common to see P.Eng or PMP etc in signature blocks as it's relevant to what we do all the time.
> 
> Jon



Saw a lot of that when I was at ADM MAt. Not just limited to DGLEPM.


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## Chanada (7 Oct 2019)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Curious.  If a member were to receive a Bar to their MSM, do the post-nominals change?



Not normally. However in programs issued by Rideau Hall forinvestures they will designate a second or third award using an asterisk.   Major J Jones MSM*/CWO A Best MMV*, MSM** .  Have seen it used only for MVDs and MSDs.  Probably not a bad idea that could be formalized and even extended to the CD.  

WRT the CCD1/2/3 discussions.  While I have. always thought it off-side and just out of place when seen on sig blocks and place cards at mess dinners I think it is most often used by and on behalf of people who are justifiably proud of the service represented and the commitment behind it.


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## Journeyman (7 Oct 2019)

I know a guy who retired as a LCol, became HCol of a militia unit, and now self-identifies as Col (Ret'd).   :

Yes, he's a douche in other ways too.


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## daftandbarmy (7 Oct 2019)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I know a guy who retired as a LCol, became HCol of a militia unit, and now self-identifies as Col (Ret'd).   :
> 
> Yes, he's a douche in other ways too.



But does he wear 'decorations' that he invented and had made for himself?


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## Journeyman (7 Oct 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> But does he wear 'decorations' that he invented and had made for himself?


Not that I've seen.  He was a Dragoon so I assume that the CD and NATO ones are legit; I can't imagine anyone fraudulently wearing a Jubilee medal to 'boost their street cred.'  ;D


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## Haggis (7 Oct 2019)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I can't imagine anyone fraudulently wearing a Jubilee medal to 'boost their street cred.'  ;D



He wouldn't be the first honourary to do so.


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## CountDC (23 Oct 2019)

thanks for the link.  A lot of reading there.  Wow.


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