# Active Shooter / Hostile Event ( ASHE ) prevention / response



## larry Strong

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> The legislators are sitting smugly behind their desks comfortable in the knowledge that they have enough security around them in the building to stop a threat at the doors......in comparison to schools..........
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers
> Larry




https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/school-officer-never-went-inside-to-confront-gunman-florida-sheriff-says-1.3815440



> .....The armed officer on duty at the Florida school where a shooter killed 17 people never went inside to engage the gunman and has been placed under investigation, officials announced Thursday......



Those kids were left to die......FML



Cheers
Larry


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## garb811

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/school-officer-never-went-inside-to-confront-gunman-florida-sheriff-says-1.3815440
> 
> .....The armed officer on duty at the Florida school where a shooter killed 17 people never went inside to engage the gunman and has been placed under investigation, officials announced Thursday......
> 
> Those kids were left to die......FML
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers
> Larry


In addition to what Recceguy said, there needs to be some caution to jumping to conclusions as to how this person reacted for a few reasons (without getting too specific about TTPs):

1)  I've been trained on several iterations of IARD and in none of them is the drill to go in alone.  In fact, the explicit direction has always been to never go in alone.
2)  In one of the iterations I was trained in, the job of the first member on scene is to essentially act as OSCAR until relieved by a senior member.  Determine the closest entry point to the shooter, set up a RV for responding pers to go to and coordinate the initial teams going in.
3)  IARD drills are always run fully kitted.  Vest, plate, helmet, carbine, then you go in as a team.  I'm guessing a school resource officer would not have that at hand.

This member may have been reacting exactly as the very department which is criticizing them trained them to do.  If that is the case and that member now not only has to live with knowing all of those kids and teachers died on their watch but they have now been scapegoated and thrown to the wolves for reacting as they were trained to...


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## mariomike

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/school-officer-never-went-inside-to-confront-gunman-florida-sheriff-says-1.3815440



To add,

QUOTE

Peterson resigned after he was suspended without pay  by ( Sheriff ) Israel pending an internal investigation into his actions during the shooting that left 17 people dead, Israel said. Peterson was eligible for retirement. 

( Sheriff ) Israel told reporters Peterson should have "went in. Addressed the killer. Killed the killer." 

Instead, the deputy waited outside for about four minutes.

"What I saw was a deputy arrive at the west side of building 12, take up a position," Israel said of the video. "And he never went in."

Peterson held several jobs, including working as a security guard and stock clerk, before he was hired as a sheriff's deputy in 1985, according to his personnel records. He also served in the military, he told the sheriff's office. Peterson, who attended Florida International University, was largely lauded for his performance on the job, including garnering two deputy of the year nominations in recent years, the personnel records show.

In 2015, Israel noted Peterson's then-30-year tenure. "Your dedication and allegiance are the best illustrations of the service [the sheriff's office] provides to the people of Broward County," Israel wrote, according to the records. 


Two sheriff's deputies on restricted duty

( Sheriff ) Israel said two other deputies have been placed on restricted duty while the sheriff's office investigates their actions during calls to the gunman's home before the shooting. 
https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/22/us/florida-school-shooting/index.html

END QUOTE

"You don't wait for SWAT; you push in and eliminate the shooter," Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/fla-sheriff-orders-deputies-carry-rifles-school-grounds-article-1.3834359


Former Broward Sheriff Al Lamberti: “These events are over in three to five minutes. You don't have the luxury to wait. You might not have the best equipment, you might have small numbers, but you're armed. Those kids are not armed. You have to go in and engage the shooter."

"Since the Columbine school shooting that left 12 dead in 1999, cops have been trained not to wait for heavily armed SWAT officers but to enter buildings to find and kill the threat."
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article201636649.html


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## pbi

MCG said:
			
		

> ...We know the mind functions subconsciously in was to preserve itself.  We know people are biologically prone to freeze, fight or flight in ways over which they are not in control. If you put armed defenders into schools and do not specifically and routinely train them to take a pistol into a fight against an assault rifle, those defenders will routinely fail you when assault rifles are brought to hunt children...



Which is why I am extremely skeptical that "arming teachers" is in any way a useful response to this type of threat. Most of us here have spent many hours on weapons ranges, firing our own weapons or teaching others to fire theirs. Others amongst us have fired weapons in the confusion and tension of combat.

We know that it takes a lot of empty casings and time to produce a shooter who is any good at hitting a moving target with a rifle, never mind a pistol. We know that training has to be refreshed regularly or it fades. We also know that just putting rounds into a Fig 12 doesn't by itself prepare you to use your weapon in conditions of fear, confusion and panic when surrounding by dozens (or hundreds) of panicking people.

Most teachers (OK I'm speculating here....) are not necessarily firearms enthusiasts nor have any handling experience. Not their fault, any more than they aren't  airplane mechanics or toaster collectors: not really a relevant skill set. And I hope it never has to be.

The teachers I know well have frequently explained to me how very little time they are given to prepare their classes or do anything else their profession requires. Now, discounting that a bit of that might be the sort of whining about our jobs we all do, I don't know where you're going to find the time to produce teachers who are excellent at teaching (ie: why have teachers and schools in the first place...) but can be trusted to strap on a sidearm in a class full of kids, then use it effectively in that panicky moment when  or "if."--remember these incidents are actually rare in the big scheme of things--a shooter gets into the school.

Not the answer, in my opinion. The measures that I would support are:

-regular inside patrols by the local LEA;

-more common sense and practical education for all parties on recognizing the signs of mental disorder;

-properly trained and armed security guards whose business it is to know how to use deadly force;

-effective metal detectors and possibly backpack checks (like Canada's Wonderland where thousands pour through the gates every day); and

-effective controlled access system. We have swipe cards to get into our workplaces or onto the transit: why not for schools?


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## mariomike

pbi said:
			
		

> Which is why I am extremely skeptical that "arming teachers" is in any way a useful response to this type of threat.



Arming a percentage of teachers was suggested because the cost ( not including the gun and training ) would only involve adding a "bonus" to their regular salary.



			
				pbi said:
			
		

> -regular inside patrols by the local LEA;



I believe the school had a Deputy, a School Resource Officer ( SRO ) permanently stationed at the school full-time. An SRO also has the advantage of knowing the layout and routines of the school staff and students - and who to watch out for - better than a patrol officer would.



			
				pbi said:
			
		

> -properly trained and armed security guards whose business it is to know how to use deadly force;



Using armed veterans for guard duty has also been suggested,
https://www.bing.com/search?q=trump+veterans+schools&filters=ex1%3a%22ez5_17575_17585%22&go=Search&qs=ds&qpvt=trump+veterans+schools

The ROE, according to the Sheriff, seems direct: "Go in. Address the killer. Kill the killer.”

The Sheriff's deputy failed to go in. 

Would a private security guard, or military veteran ( presumably earning less than a police officer ) be more / or less likely to: "Go in. Address the killer. Kill the killer.” than a Deputy?

That's not a rhetorical question.


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## pbi

mariomike said:
			
		

> Arming a percentage of teachers was suggested because the cost ( not including the gun and training ) would only involve adding a "bonus" to their regular salary.
> 
> Using armed veterans for guard duty has also been suggested,
> https://www.bing.com/search?q=trump+veterans+schools&filters=ex1%3a%22ez5_17575_17585%22&go=Search&qs=ds&qpvt=trump+veterans+schools
> 
> The ROE, according to the Sheriff, seems direct: "Go in. Address the killer. Kill the killer.”
> 
> The Sheriff's deputy failed to go in.
> 
> Would a private security guard or military veteran ( presumably earning less than police officers or armed teachers ) be more / or less likely to: "Go in. Address the killer. Kill the killer.”?
> 
> That's not a rhetorical question.



Good points MarioMike. But, nothing personal, I really don't buy the "arming teachers" thing as a truly useful measure. To me, the issue is to stop these people before they even get into the school at all. Once in the school, amongst hundreds of people in a maze of rooms and corridors, it becomes much more difficult, and IMHO the possibility of collateral deaths and injuries goes way up.

And, yes, good question about the guards. My theoretical answer lies in the training and experience of these guards, and the ROE each state's law would permit. Clearly not just Joe the Rent-a-Cop. I haven't analyzed it further than that.


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## pbi

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> People with firearms protect money, wild animals, malls, jewelry, parks, car lots, movie stars, musicians, empty buildings. But we balk at the idea of adding a layer of protection to protecting children by arming teachers.



Jarnhamar: I don't know if "we" balk". I know I do, for the reasons I stated. And, I'm not sure how well-trained or effective any of the examples are you listed.  For a school I would want armed security of a high standard. I'm assuming you're referring to US in your list: I haven't seen any armed security in malls, car lots, music shows or empty buildings in this country.


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## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> People with firearms protect money, wild animals, malls, jewelry, parks, car lots, movie stars, musicians, empty buildings. But we balk at the idea of adding a layer of protection to protecting children by arming teachers.



That is true. eg: Armed guards on armoured trucks have been around for many years. I remember when - in addition to their .38s in "flap" holsters - they carried shotguns into stores - now they leave it in the truck with the driver.

The difference with schools etc. is that armoured truck robbers are generally only interested in the money, as opposed to mass murder.

It's the exact opposite with school shooters.

As Willie Sutton said when asked, "Why do you rob banks?" 

"Because that's where the money is."


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## Jarnhamar

pbi said:
			
		

> Jarnhamar: I don't know if "we" balk". I know I do, for the reasons I stated. And, I'm not sure how well-trained or effective any of the examples are you listed.  For a school I would want armed security of a high standard. I'm assuming you're referring to US in your list: I haven't seen any armed security in malls, car lots, music shows or empty buildings in this country.


  
Referring to the US, yep! 
Not to be cold but a warm body soaking up bullets between my kids and a shooter gets my approval. 

Would teachers be effective? Maybe. If I took half an hour and did some research I guarantee I can fill this page with examples of every day citizens with ccw permits that have either stopped crime or protected themselves from harm. 
Here's one;

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/06/23/phoenix-boy-14-shoots-armed-intruder-while-watching-three-younger-siblings.html


> * Phoenix boy, 14, shoots armed intruder while watching three younger siblings*





I'm fine with armed teachers. It doesn't seem to be that pressing of an issue (yet) up here. More for the US it seems like improved mental health care, a better  more robust reporting system and police department SOP reviews would save a lot of these lives. Also maybe look at the availability of firearms and ways to  to address them finding their way into wrong hands.


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## mariomike

pbi said:
			
		

> Good points MarioMike. But, nothing personal, I really don't buy the "arming teachers" thing as a truly useful measure. To me, the issue is to stop these people before they even get into the school at all. Once in the school, amongst hundreds of people in a maze of rooms and corridors, it becomes much more difficult, and IMHO the possibility of collateral deaths and injuries goes way up.
> 
> And, yes, good question about the guards. My theoretical answer lies in the training and experience of these guards, and the ROE each state's law would permit. Clearly not just Joe the Rent-a-Cop. I haven't analyzed it further than that.



Always best if a shooter can be stopped at point of entry.

Even better if an attempt can be prevented in the first place.

As the NRA says, "Only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun."

That certainly applies to armed robbery. eg: Armoured truck guards.

( Reminds me of what a truck guard told me during a coffee stop ( I asked him about a new style holster I was unfamiliar with ). 
In no uncertain terms he explained exactly how fast he was - not on drawing his gun - but on surrendering it! )  


For mass shooters armed with AR 15's with high capacity magazines ( especially if they are suicidal ), I believe the time will come - if it is not here already - that they may have to seriously consider routinely deploying the National Guard. I'm not sure local police can afford the resources. 

That sounds far-fetched. But, they are already talking about hiring veterans.

Sometimes you have to fight fire(power) with even greater fire(power).

Of course, the Las Vegas sniper massacre was a different situation.


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## Jarnhamar

I'd be hesitant with the "hire veterans" idea, or at least not rush in to supporting it 
-Veteran is an an ambiguous term ranging from a 30 year Special Operations retiree to someone who couldn't pass basic training.
-roll creep may be a big concern
-mental health issues or concerns


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## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I'd be hesitant with the "hire veterans" idea, or at least not rush in to supporting it
> -Veteran is an an ambiguous term ranging from a 30 year Special Operations retiree to someone who couldn't pass basic training.
> -roll creep may be a big concern
> -mental health issues or concerns



True. Ideally, police officers aka "School Resource Officers" ( SROs ) would be deployed to schools. 

I think the talk about paying teachers a bonus, or hiring private armed security or veterans was suggested because of the cost factor when compared to police.

But, as they say, "you get what you pay for."

QUOTE

"You give them a little bit of a bonus, so practically for free, you have now made the school into a hardened target,” Mr. Trump said.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/22/us/politics/trump-guns-school-shootings.html

END QUOTE


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## Journeyman

mariomike said:
			
		

> I think the talk about paying teachers a bonus, or hiring private security or veterans was suggested because - presumably - they would cost less than police. effectively addressing the underlying issues would cost votes.


      :2c:


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## mariomike

garb811 said:
			
		

> In addition to what Recceguy said, there needs to be some caution to jumping to conclusions as to how this person reacted for a few reasons (without getting too specific about TTPs):



The POTUS used the word "coward".
https://www.google.ca/search?q=trump+deputy+coward&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A2%2F23%2F2018%2Ccd_max%3A2%2F23%2F2018&tbm=


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## Old Sweat

While I don't have all the facts, I am getting the impression that the mass dumping on the police officer stationed at the school is being used to draw attention away from some other dubious decisions by various agencies.

For whatever it is worth, I recall that in the aftermath of the Columbine, CO school shooting, the gentlemen who did my maps and diagrams for some of my books and was an OPP officer in real life, told me the policy of waiting for a full team to be established was being scrapped in favour of officers entering as they arrived to confront the shooters. Sorry for the above sentence which is Trans-Canada Highwayish in length.

There may be more to this.


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## mariomike

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> I recall that in the aftermath of the Columbine, CO school shooting, the gentlemen who did my maps and diagrams for some of my books and was an OPP officer in real life, told me the policy of waiting for a full team to be established was being scrapped in favour of officers entering as they arrived to confront the shooters.



Columbine led to a change in tactics,
https://www.google.ca/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&ei=tGKQWqegJMnSjwSh042ACw&q=%22rescue+task+force%22+columbine&oq=%22rescue+task+force%22+columbine&gs_l=psy-ab.3...35013.46084.0.46391.29.29.0.0.0.0.205.4225.0j28j1.29.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.28.3992...0j35i39k1j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i131i20i263k1j0i20i263k1j0i22i30k1j0i8i13i30k1.0.26AVKJH0Soc


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## FJAG

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> . . .
> For whatever it is worth, I recall that in the aftermath of the Columbine, CO school shooting, the gentlemen who did my maps and diagrams for some of my books and was an OPP officer in real life, told me the policy of waiting for a full team to be established was being scrapped in favour of officers entering as they arrived to confront the shooters. . . .





			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> Columbine led to a change in tactics,
> https://www.google.ca/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&ei=tGKQWqegJMnSjwSh042ACw&q=%22rescue+task+force%22+columbine&oq=%22rescue+task+force%22+columbine&gs_l=psy-ab.3...35013.46084.0.46391.29.29.0.0.0.0.205.4225.0j28j1.29.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.28.3992...0j35i39k1j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i131i20i263k1j0i20i263k1j0i22i30k1j0i8i13i30k1.0.26AVKJH0Soc



Also see here re Immediate Action Rapid Deployment tactics:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immediate_Action_Rapid_Deployment

I'm not about to second guess either the issue of whether or not Broward County properly implemented, equipped and trained its people on IARD or on Peterson's action or lack of action (I'll leave that to the measured tweets that emanate from POTUS) but it strikes me that sitting behind cement pillar outside the school while shots are being fired inside are probably contrary to the tactic. It seems to me that as the Sheriff's on-site School Resource officer assigned to the high school would be the one individual there who ought to have been familiar with and assigned to take action in accordance with IARD tactics.

 :cheers:


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## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> There were an estimated 40,100 motor vehicle deaths last year, or a drop of 1 percent from the prior year.



That's tragic. But, I was remembering how bad it was in the early 1970's, and with fewer resources to respond.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year#Motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year

Also,

QUOTE

Sources: Coral Springs police upset at some Broward deputies for not entering school
https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/politics/parkland-school-shooting-broward-deputies/index.html
(CNN) — When Coral Springs police officers arrived at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, on February 14 in the midst of the school shooting crisis, many officers were surprised to find not only that Broward County Sheriff's Deputy Scot Peterson, the armed school resource officer, had not entered the building, but that three other Broward County Sheriff's deputies were also outside the school and had not entered, Coral Springs sources tell CNN. The deputies had their pistols drawn and were behind their vehicles, the sources said, and not one of them had gone into the school.

Some Coral Springs police were stunned and upset that the four original Broward County Sheriff's deputies who were first on the scene did not appear to join them as they entered the school,  Coral Springs sources tell CNN.

END QUOTE


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## Furniture

mariomike said:
			
		

> (CNN) — When Coral Springs police officers arrived at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, on February 14 in the midst of the school shooting crisis, many officers were surprised to find not only that Broward County Sheriff's Deputy Scot Peterson, the armed school resource officer, had not entered the building, but that three other Broward County Sheriff's deputies were also outside the school and had not entered, Coral Springs sources tell CNN. The deputies had their pistols drawn and were behind their vehicles, the sources said, and not one of them had gone into the school.
> 
> Some Coral Springs police were stunned and upset that the four original Broward County Sheriff's deputies who were first on the scene did not appear to join them as they entered the school,  Coral Springs sources tell CNN.
> 
> END QUOTE



This is the sad part of it all, they accepted the pay given to them to risk their lives to save others, but when it came down to doing the deed they hid. I get that shooting to kill a person is hard for almost everybody, but at least attempting to get inside the school isn't asking too much of those we pay to protect us.


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## daftandbarmy

WeatherdoG said:
			
		

> This is the sad part of it all, they accepted the pay given to them to risk their lives to save others, but when it came down to doing the deed they hid. I get that shooting to kill a person is hard for almost everybody, but at least attempting to get inside the school isn't asking too much of those we pay to protect us.



1) Bad training, and 
2) Worse leadership

All the more reason to stand up some kind of special police force to protect Americans who classify as 'soft targets', such as school kids, against nuts with guns (as opposed to gun nuts).


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## RangerRay

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Interesting term, which you used twice.    :rofl:
> 
> "I'm afraid he's not just normal, but _extremely_  normal....."    rly:



I guess I was looking for a term to describe people who aren't your usual rent-a-mob activist, but are "radicalised" by events.  Kind of like what I see in the wake of the latest massacre.  I see people fed up with the inaction provided by their political "leaders".

An opinion on the solution being proposed by these so-called "leaders":

https://www.charlottefive.com/arming-teachers/



> *I’ve been shot in combat. And as a veteran, I’m telling you: allowing teachers to be armed is an asinine idea*
> By Matt Martin -
> February 20, 2018





> Regardless of training, you don’t know how people will respond in life and death situations until the moment comes. You don’t know how people will react when they hear gunshots. You don’t know how people will react when the person next to them is shot. You don’t know how a person will respond when their task is shooting someone they know or taught. You just don’t know.
> 
> And now we are expecting teachers, even with training, to perfectly handle this situation. I say perfectly because anything less could mean even more tragedy and death. This isn’t a movie where bullets always miss the hero. These teachers aren’t action stars. These are average people, who more likely than not, have never come close to experiencing anything like this.
> 
> Few people actually run towards gunfire. Most search for cover. Some can’t function. Fight or flight. Adrenaline floods your body. Time doesn’t exist. Your heart beats outside of your chest. Fine motor skills stop working. People urinate and defecate themselves. Good luck holding steady aim at a moving target. Even the simplest of tasks, such as reloading can become difficult. Your hands shake for hours afterward. It’s chaotic on a level that is beyond comprehension until you experience it.
> 
> This what I want you to consider when the discussion moves toward Rep. Pittman’s assumption that allowing teachers to arm themselves is the proper action to take.
> 
> “There is barely enough time in the school year to train teachers on basic lesson planning and data use,” a friend who currently works for CMS told me. “So adding weaponry is just so absurd.”


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## Jarnhamar

> I’ve been shot in combat. And as a veteran, I’m telling you: allowing teachers to be armed is an asinine idea
> By Matt Martin -
> February 20, 2018



The average school shooting is over in 3 to 4 minutes. 
Average police response time is something like 7 or 8 minutes, which doesn't mean much if their SOPs aren't to enter the building as soon as they arrive.
Florida school shooting was over in 7 minutes with 17 dead.
Matt Martin's "Hey everyone, I've been shot too" opinion misses the point. His article is a fluff job about himself.


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## mariomike

WeatherdoG said:
			
		

> This is the sad part of it all, they accepted the pay given to them to risk their lives to save others, but when it came down to doing the deed they hid.



It's even being reported in the U.K.,

"FOUR county sheriff deputies 'cowered behind their cars during Parkland school shooting and refused to enter the building' according to Florida police officers who ran in to try and stop the attack."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5428851/FOUR-deputies-failed-enter-school-building-shooting.html

I give First Responders the benefit of the doubt until the investigation is complete. Hopefully, the investigation will be conducted by an independent agency.

Rescue Task Force ( RTF ) protocol for Active Shooters,
https://www.google.ca/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&ei=spCRWpjDMoHYsQWYsYqICw&q=%22rescue+task+force%22+%22active+shooter%22&oq=%22rescue+task+force%22+%22active+shooter%22&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i22i30k1.109697.116779.0.117734.17.17.0.0.0.0.170.2158.0j17.17.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.17.2131...0j0i67k1.0.NOEMKjhGnpY

In other news,

"More companies cutting ties with the NRA",
https://www.google.ca/search?q=cutting+ties+nra&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A2%2F14%2F2018%2Ccd_max%3A&tbm=


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## garb811

This is a split from the Great Gun Control Debate where the conversation became intermingled between gun control and preventing and responding to an active shooter in the wake of the school shooting in Florida on 14 Feb 18.  

I have moved or left posts in the most appropriate thread but there may be quotes or comments that pertain directly to the other thread and I would ask that you make your replies (if any) in the appropriate thread


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## brihard

I won't touch the gun control post with a ten foot pole, so I had not seen this up til now.

I'm an IARD instructor with my police service.  I can give some context to this.

IARD is a set of tactics to deal specifically with an active threat- someone who is basically trying to rack up a body count, actively killing. An IARD response, like any other police use of force, is intended to change the subject's behaviour towards controlling the situation and ending the threat to life. Whether it's the simple arrival of police precipitating suicide, or the first effective engagement of the threat either neutralizing them through incapacitation or surrender or causing suicide, or whether contacting the threat leads to them barricading (e.g., Orlando Pulse nightclub) and the tactical response then shifting towards something more deliberate. The point is to preserve as much life as possible by changing the behaviour away from active killing.

You go in immediately, and with what you've got. "Never go in alone" is old drills and not validated. Yes, it's a much higher risk to the officer, but backup is probably close behind, and you want the threat's goal orientation to change away from killing helpless victims to whatever else isn't that- whether they suck-start, or engage you as the police, or barricade. Generally they are looking for a body count, not a fight, and generally they fear capture. An active shooter is often a highly dramatic suicide. Every bit of delay is potentially a couple more dead victims.

Things like C8s, hard body armour, helmets, more members etc are value added. You use 'em if you've got 'em. I have a loaded C8, hard plates, and a helmet all within reach while I'm driving. Not everyone has those. Yes I would take the twenty or thirty seconds to equip, but then it's time to advance to contact. Th La Loche shooting was stopped by a single RCMP officer who confronted the shooter. In Orlando, a single police officer outside was able to make a few effective pistol shots at about 35yds when the shooter emerged onto the patio, that changed his behaviour from actively shooting to barricading. In many of the recent mass shootings it has been one or two officers entering ASAFP that have located the threat and stopped the mass killing.

As was pointed out below, these shootings are usually over very quick. I hear the 911 audio from Pulse- extremely rapid and continuous fire for a couple of minutes, after the shooter fired his way into the club. Within a minute or so a couple officers were on scene, he popped outside and was engaged, and then hunkered in a bathroom til he was killed in the final gunfight. In that couple of minutes of firing a catastrophic death toll was achieved. As responding police you just don't have time to wait. Go in, and others will catch up. The first couple officers may go in alone then meet up, but you will have contact and rescue teams assembling ad hoc and going in fast after that.

It's gonna be normal patrol cops doing this, nearly always (or nearby plainclothes members who hear the call and respond too). Some forces have part time SWAT who have their kit in their cars (e.g., Orlando), but unless your police service is fortunate to have tactical members on shift actively patrolling and ready to go in the right area, the shooter will liekly be confronted by whatever marked cars are in the vicinity. The training has to be pushed to all officers, as well as proper equipment.

A good video clip we often use at the start of our training- this is a 12 minute sequence from a TV show that was made based loosely on Montreal Police, showing a response to a school shooting. A lot of the uncertainty, panics, fears, and inanities are well captured in this. It's obviously still TV, the tactics don’t really reflect what we do, but it's not bad for the flavor of the situation and to put people into the headspace of what the training is for. Unfortunately the video cuts off at the end of the continuous shot, but the full episode can be found online and is quite good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhplhhnvPQs


----------



## Pieman

> 1) Bad training, and
> 2) Worse leadership



I'm not sure it's bad training, but simply expecting too much. Police officers are trained for dealing with the public, not urban combat (rightfully so). I mean this more in the psychological front than tactical, in that the Police are not the Army. They are not trained with the concept of unlimited liability. To expect someone who is unconditioned to suddenly waltz into a life/death situation alone is simply expecting too much IMHO. We all like to think that we would react to the situation properly and move in to kill the subject, but there are piles of human nature factors working against it.


----------



## brihard

Pieman said:
			
		

> I'm not sure it's bad training, but simply expecting too much. Police officers are trained for dealing with the public, not urban combat (rightfully so). I mean this more in the psychological front than tactical, in that the Police are not the Army. They are not trained with the concept of unlimited liability. To expect someone who is unconditioned to suddenly waltz into a life/death situation alone is simply expecting too much IMHO. We all like to think that we would react to the situation properly and move in to kill the subject, but there are piles of human nature factors working against it.



I respect your opinion on this... Unfortunately when these things happen, we're it. There isn't anyone else, not in the time that matters. It's gonna be the guys on the road who can be there fastest. You're right that there are a lot of human factors working against it, but nonetheless the expectation is there, as it must be. While police are not trained for 'urban combat', we aren't really talking about the same stuff there either - I'm a CAF Urban Ops Instructor too. Two quite different contexts. A military foe is going to behave and be handled very different from someone who is simply trying to rack up a high score of innocent lives.

We've been talking about active shooters generally in the case of the lone wingnut, or the guy who decides to kill a bunch of classmates. The ones who are looking for prey, not a fight. They are a relatively easy stop in the sense that they will probably be psychologically defeated with comparative ease and will likely not force the issue to be fought out to its conclusion.  On the flip side when we think of military or trained-militarized foes, they will trade lives, space, and time towards a larger military objective. We will unfortunately have to eventually content with the 'worst of both worlds'- active shooters who are motivated towards a final confrontation. The Dallas shooter is a sort of contemporary example of this in North America, though at least he was only gunning for cops. Europe and the Middle East have seen groups of armed militants who start as active threats, and then engage responding police in a deliberate fashion. I could imagine a worst case of a small group, a couple of whom continue actively killing in a fairly contained environment, while a couple others act as a 'rearguard' to engage responding police and buy more time for slaughter. The 2015 Paris attacks culminating in the shooting and siege at the Bataclan concert venue was perhaps the closest we've seen to this. In such a case, unfortunately the bad guys will potentially have abilities exceeding the ability of normal patrol officers to stop, and it may well be that a hasty attack by a rapidly assembled team of trained tactical officers ends up being the response. At least in this case it's most likely that such an attack will happen in a city that has established police tactical capabilities within the municipality, as opposed to say a city that is dependent upon an RCMP, OPP, or SQ tactical team that has to come in from out of town (e.g., the Moncton response).

Now, that said- most active threats are not terrorist in nature, or if they are are a so-called 'lone wolf' rather than an organized and trained cell. Police will be able to deal with this basically using what we have or are getting already. Attacks of a more complex nature have generally happened in European cities that are already quasi-militarized in the available resources to respond to a threat. We will probably see the American response to such events tested in the next few years, but Dallas, Orlando, and Vegas suggest that SWAT/tactical units capable of an effective response will probably be assembled pretty quickly.

Another 'flavour' of attack is Cop-hunting, like Dallas or Moncton. That's a still different beast entirely, but in the initial minutes will likely not be distinguishable from an active shooter. I won't dive further into this one at this time.


----------



## mariomike

Pieman said:
			
		

> To expect someone who is unconditioned to suddenly waltz into a life/death situation alone is simply expecting too much IMHO.



They ran up the stairs on 9/11. 343 City of New York firefighters and paramedics were killed in the Line of Duty that day.

As far as Active Shooter is concerned, 

City sends unarmed firefighters and paramedics into ‘active shooter’ situations
https://nypost.com/2016/10/02/city-program-sends-unarmed-firefighters-and-emts-into-active-shooter-situations/

Active Shooter / Hostile Event ( ASHE ) Guide. July, 2016.
http://www.interagencyboard.org/sites/default/files/publications/IAB%20Active%20Shooter%20%26%20Hostile%20Event%20Guide.pdf
The optimal Rescue Task Force, with police protection, to active shooter incidents is one Paramedic Supervisor, 2 Paramedics and 4 Firefighters.

Although Toronto has had ETF aka SWAT Paramedics since 1996, any non-tactical Paramedic can be assigned to a Rescue Task Force at any time,
"Where Tactical Paramedics are not available, non-tactical Paramedics may be assigned to ETF ( aka SWAT ) police incidents."

Eaton Centre:
"On June 2, 2012, the Toronto Eaton Centre food court suddenly turned deadly when shots rang out and panicked diners went running for cover. Within a few minutes of the first 911 call, two superintendents and four paramedics were at the scene. These first responders immediately approached the basement-level food court, despite the risk to themselves. As they tended to the wounded - some of whom had life-threatening injuries - the paramedics had to duck for cover to avoid being caught in the continued gunfire."

Scarborough:
"On July 16, 2012, repeated gunfire erupted at a community celebration in east-end Toronto, resulting in multiple casualties. The four paramedics and two superintendents who arrived on the scene met a surge of panicked people running down the street. While police searched for the shooters - still at large - the paramedics set up triage and treatment areas, putting their personal safety at risk. When they later learned that a shooter was hiding in their midst, the paramedics discreetly alerted the police, who were able to make an arrest without further injury."

That was the worst mass shooting in the history of Toronto.

This was the SOP we operated under,

"Toronto Paramedics are reminded of their responsibility under the Occupational Health and Safety Act, Section 43, (1) and (2).2 These sections exclude paramedics from the right to refuse work where the circumstances are inherent in their work and/or if the work refusal would directly endanger the health and safety of another person."


----------



## Pieman

All commendable acts. However, are they properly trained for it? Is it too much to expect with the training they are given? 

What if they were alone, and had to go in by themselves? It's a lot harder to act in that situation.


----------



## brihard

Pieman said:
			
		

> All commendable acts. However, are they properly trained for it? Is it too much to expect with the training they are given?
> 
> What if they were alone, and had to go in by themselves? It's a lot harder to act in that situation.



In the case of police attending an active shooter and going in alone- yes, by and large we are trained for it. Again we aren't going up against a military enemy, we're probably going up against some messed up kid who will lock down, surrender, or suicide as soon as we make contact.

Even if we aren't as well trained or prepared as we would like to be, we generally have a better fighting chance than the other kids in the school, and that's what it boils down to.


----------



## Pieman

> n the case of police attending an active shooter and going in alone- yes, by and large we are trained for it. Again we aren't going up against a military enemy, we're probably going up against some messed up kid who will lock down, surrender, or suicide as soon as we make contact.
> 
> Even if we aren't as well trained or prepared as we would like to be, we generally have a better fighting chance than the other kids in the school, and that's what it boils down to.



Got it, all good points on your end. I guess the question is what kind of training could be added to the police arsenal that would help them be more effective if they are expected to respond?


----------



## FJAG

A little out of context but apt:



> Isaiah 6:8
> Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.



 :cheers:


----------



## brihard

FJAG said:
			
		

> A little out of context but apt:
> 
> :cheers:



Lesser known Isaiah 6:7,
And lo, the lord spoke and said "whom shall stand up and be counted willing for this poopy task?" And the numbers that hid in cubicles were eight, and the numbers that had a medical appointment were three, and the numbers that had more seniority and a vague prior engagement were six, and the numbers that were on course were two, and the numbers that were junior to me but more crafty and thus absent were also two, and I said "...crap" and I was sent


----------



## brihard

Pieman said:
			
		

> Got it, all good points on your end. I guess the question is what kind of training could be added to the police arsenal that would help them be more effective if they are expected to respond?



More practice of the training that we already receive. More simunition force on force. The hands and feet skills we learn are generally sufficient, but we cram it way too tightly and then don't use it enough. At least this is my organization. We have the benefit that everyone is mandated to be IARD and C8 trained, and both now form part of our recruit training, with most of the personnel in the field getting caught up now too.


----------



## FJAG

Brihard said:
			
		

> Lesser known Isaiah 6:7,
> And lo, the lord spoke and said "whom shall stand up and be counted willing for this poopy task?" And the numbers that hid in cubicles were eight, and the numbers that had a medical appointment were three, and the numbers that had more seniority and a vague prior engagement were six, and the numbers that were on course were two, and the numbers that were junior to me but more crafty and thus absent were also two, and I said "...crap" and I was sent



 :rofl:


----------



## FJAG

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> I posted this on Facebook in response to another comment.  Before I read Brihard's post here.
> 
> It was my best guess at the time.
> 
> I already sense that I need to correct at least one aspect of the post: specifically the value of a single pistol in changing the behaviour of the shooter.  I'd be appreciative of any other professional critiques.
> 
> My own overall sense is that once you have let a shooter within range of targets, after the first target falls there are going to be multiple others before any kind of response is possible.  Consequently the best prevention in this case is to keep weapons out of range of the targets and provide secure. armoured spaces for everybody else.



Not a critique but a consideration. In Canada, s 25(4) of the Criminal Code provides special protection to peace officers who use force in various circumstances. While protections do exist for others (self defence etc) the peace officer powers are wider. That said, an armed teacher (assuming they can even get the appropriate permits and permissions to carry a weapon into school) could find themselves in serious trouble if they use the weapon (and especially if an innocent bystander is injured or killed). One can off course change the laws but I think there would be no appetite within Canada to even give consideration to this.

Laws in the US vary widely (especially under Stand your Ground) and there is probably a greater appetite for changing laws to provide protection for teachers and other staff of a school to protect their children but that said, current Stand your Ground do not equate to peace officer status and more importantly, teacher training does not equate to peace officer training and experience. While on the surface the idea of a rapid armed response by staff to this type of situation seems attractive, the implementation of a reasonably safe system could be very difficult and inconsistent at best.

 :cheers:


----------



## Kirkhill

Reposting due to a technical error eliminating my previous effort. (Sunspots).  ;D



> There is already provision in many jurisdictions for "part-time", "special duties" or "deputised" civilians to act as Law Enforcement Officers. Is there much to prevent willing teachers offering themselves as deputies?
> 
> And as to the willingness of officers to act....judgement calls will always be an issue.
> 
> The case of the Officer in Florida is instructive. Yes the FBI was notified - but communications failed. The local School Resource Officer was informed of concerns about the individual some 20 plus times and notified his superiors - but no action was take - because no action could be taken - because no crime had been committed and no mental health breaks had been identified. The Officer did not enter the school - but the SWAT team will not enter an active zone without a stack of 4 to 6 officers proceeding in an orderly fashion to separate shooters from victims and cover each others backs. One man with a pistol makes for a good movie but lousy tactics.
> 
> If the school needs a Quick Reaction Force on site then they need a dozen people (staff, teachers, security) living on the premises with access to weapons and protective gear and regularly exercised in moving through the school clearing the space. Equally the remainder of the school's population needs to be regularly exercised in drills so that they become as sick of them as they do fire, earthquake and tornado drills.
> 
> That might get the response time down to 4 minutes from 8 minutes and reduce the number of kills to the single digits from the double digits.
> 
> It won't prevent the problem.



I posted this on Facebook in response to another comment.  Before I read Brihard's post here.

It was my best guess at the time.

I already sense that I need to correct at least one aspect of the post: specifically the value of a single pistol in changing the behaviour of the shooter.  I'd be appreciative of any other professional critiques.

My own overall sense is that once you have let a shooter within range of targets, after the first target falls there are going to be multiple others before any kind of response is possible.  Consequently the best prevention in this case is to keep weapons out of range of the targets and provide secure. armoured spaces for everybody else.


----------



## Kirkhill

Response to FJAG.

I am not yet convinced of the value of an on-site QRF at every school.  To me it seems to make more sense that the school premises be secured and the zone around the school be actively patrolled.  I found it interesting when listening to Trump's discussion with the students and their parents that the mass-shooting problem seemed to be a suburban problem.  In DC the bigger problem is getting the kids to and from school and keeping them safe at home.  The school, in an active shooter zone, is actually a secure space because admission is controlled with guards, x-rays and scanners.  In suburbia everbody knows they live in a safe space so their kids don't need to be subjected to that kind of scary stuff.

Having said that, IF a QRF is required then I am wondering if, rather than arming civilians (teachers) then civilians that work at the school could be enrolled as special constables or even militiamen and be declared to be on duty while on the school grounds.

Another problem I have with armed presence in the halls is that the response is already too late if the weapon is in the school hallways.  Equally the response is already too late if the weapon is within 200 m of the parking lot when the buses are loading or 200 m of the playground during recess or phys-ed.


----------



## Piece of Cake

What happens to the teachers that refuse to be armed?


----------



## FJAG

To Chris Pook

I have to admit that I haven't really entered into any substantial part of this debate because, quite frankly, I have no solutions to offer.

While on the one hand, doing nothing seems inadequate, I don't want to see schools turned into Fort Apaches because every once in a while some nutcase wanders into one with a weapon and kills innocent children. I must admit that my most immediate response is that the shooter, if still alive, or his body, if dead, should immediately be taken to a public square and be flayed and drawn and quartered as a lesson to the others.

There used to be a time when you could get on an airplane without passing through any type of inspection. A few bombings later and we have an industry of over 57,000 people in the US alone doing just that. We have to have our bags inspected and go through body scanners to get into Disney World, court houses and numerous other institutions. Do we do schools next? The last statistics that I have for the number of schools in the US is that there were 98,200 public schools and 34,600 private schools. That's a lot of security staff needed.

https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=372

Quite frankly I think we have loaded enough fear onto our children. Obviously what's needed is a multi-faceted approach. If you can't reduce high powered small arms and large capacity magazines and the morons who are prepared to misuse them then all you can do is fortify the vulnerable points. The problem is that you can't put the genie back in the bottle. There are so many semi automatic and full automatic rifles and high capacity magazines out there already that you will never get rid of them or even reduce them by a meaningful number--even if the various legislatures and courts could agree on that. Same for the morons (before anyone gets their dander up by morons I mean the idiots that do these shootings and not gun owners in general - I'm a gun owner myself) On the other hand, as you fortify one soft target, the idiots just move on to the next one.

I'm usually a "glass half full" kind of guy. Not on this issue.

 :brickwall:


----------



## mariomike

Piece of Cake said:
			
		

> What happens to the teachers that refuse to be armed?



It would be voluntary, with bonus pay, I believe.


----------



## winnipegoo7

Instead of hardening schools we could disperse the students. Give each kid a laptop and have them get their education online from the safety of their own homes.


----------



## Jarnhamar

I'd guess that if someone gets their hands on a gun and they make it to school/work place undetected they'll have a high probability of taking out at least few people before being stopped.

Looking at the recent Florida shooting I just can't believe there wasn't more that could have been done to intercept this guy.  Mangling small animals, apparently pointing a gun or guns at people's heads. Dozens of police calls. Th repats of violence against people. They had to have been able to get him on the radar and on a weapons ban list for something.

I think it's great the police SOPs are to charge in the minute they get there. If we took a long hard look at prevention and figured out what tools we could give police to do something about crazy behavior and threats we could save a lot of lives. Not even just preventing these people from getting guns but getting  them help so they don't just use a knife or car.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Piece of Cake said:
			
		

> What happens to the teachers that refuse to be armed?


They don't engage at an effective rate of fire.


----------



## mariomike

winnipegoo7 said:
			
		

> Instead of hardening schools we could disperse the students. Give each kid a laptop and have them get their education online from the safety of their own homes.


----------



## winnipegoo7

Just thinking outside the box


----------



## Kirkhill

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I'd guess that if someone gets their hands on a gun and they make it to school/work place undetected they'll have a high probability of taking out at least few people before being stopped.
> 
> Looking at the recent Florida shooting I just can't believe there wasn't more that could have been done to intercept this guy.  Mangling small animals, apparently pointing a gun or guns at people's heads. Dozens of police calls. Th repats of violence against people. They had to have been able to get him on the radar and on a weapons ban list for something.
> 
> I think it's great the police SOPs are to charge in the minute they get there. If we took a long hard look at prevention and figured out what tools we could give police to do something about crazy behavior and threats we could save a lot of lives. Not even just preventing these people from getting guns but getting  them help so they don't just use a knife or car.



Maybe they could have forced something on the criminal front, but have you ever tried to force an adult in need to get mental help?


----------



## Jarnhamar

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> Maybe they could have forced something on the criminal front, but have you ever tried to force an adult in need to get mental help?



I have yes, you're right it's hard. It's very difficult to get someone "committed" against their will and essentially have their rights temporarily taken away (at least in Canada) because of mental health. 

There's gotta be a way to untie police hands and at the very least get someone put on some sort of no buy list even if they're not convicted felons. 

Maybe the US needs a system similar to Canada's, but that would call for a serious revamp for them considering in many states you don't require any sort of liscence to buy a gun. 


On one hand I think arming teachers is great but that's going to come with its own problems. 
Among them an increase in accidental discharges, teachers forgetting guns around(both of which already happens). It would also possibly make teachers targets theft.


----------



## Piece of Cake

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> Maybe they could have forced something on the criminal front, but have you ever tried to force an adult in need to get mental help?



Sections 16 and 17 of Mental Health Act Ontario, gives grounds to have a person examined for mental health issues.

Not sure if any states have similar laws.

Source: https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90m07


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Having armed teachers is the last thing anyone needs.  Schools need to have additional security measures put in place, in fact, most schools already do this and new schools are designed in ways that take these things in to account.  The problem is that many of our schools are in old buildings with poor access control and no physical security.

My parents were both teachers, my mother rose all the way to the top of the profession and served as a Vice Principal, Principal, Director and finished her career as a School Board Superintendent (one of four in the entire province).  As a superintendent she dealt with all sorts of security issues and liaisef with a number of municipal and federal police forces as well as mental health, child protection services, public health, etc.

The last school she was a principal of was very new (built Post-Columbine) and it had taken all the increased security recommendations in to account.  The school had a single point of access for the public that led to a reception area with big metal fire doors where visitors had to buzz in and be let in by the Principal's secretary.  The School was also sectioned off in to different wings that required key pad access to different sections of the building.  This allowed the school staff to control who entered the premises and where they went, they also had 360 degree coverage of the school via CCTV cameras.  

The system worked and successfully prevented a few incidents.  School shootings aren't the only threat a school faces, child predators, irate parents, you name it my mother has dealt with it.  One incident I remember involved a pare nt who had their child taken away by child services show up and try to get their child back.  They were seen approaching the building, police were called and they were arrested at the entrance without incident.


----------



## Piece of Cake

Humphrey Bogart,

I agree teachers should not be armed. I also agree that in older schools, security could be improved.  However, the risk with new security measures, card swipes, readers, mag locks, ect. is fire.  The last thing anyone wants to see is students die because they are trapped in a burning school.

Yes, when the fire alarm goes off the mag locks should release, and card swipes become inactive. However, from personal experience, i know these systems sometimes fail.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Piece of Cake said:
			
		

> Humphrey Bogart,
> 
> I agree teachers should not be armed. I also agree that in older schools, security could be improved.  However, the risk with new security measures, card swipes, readers, mag locks, ect. is fire.  The last thing anyone wants to see is students die because they are trapped in a burning school.
> 
> Yes, when the fire alarm goes off the mag locks should release, and card swipes become inactive. However, from personal experience, i know these systems sometimes fail.



You realize on key swipe doors, the doors can always be opened from the other side of the swipe.  It's called a fire door for a reason.


----------



## mariomike

Piece of Cake said:
			
		

> Sections 16 and 17 of Mental Health Act Ontario, gives grounds to have a person examined for mental health issues.



There are also Mobile Crisis Intervention Teams (MCIT).
http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/community/mcit.php


----------



## Piece of Cake

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> You realize on key swipe doors, the doors can always be opened from the other side of the swipe.  It's called a fire door for a reason.



And your going to ask students aged anywhere from 5-19, to not hit the emergency release switch on a meg lock door during a non-emergency?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Piece of Cake said:
			
		

> And your going to ask students aged anywhere from 5-19, to not hit the emergency release switch during a non-emergency?



Doesn't know if he is trolling or serious  :dunno:


----------



## mariomike

From the transcript of the Broward County Sheriff's interview. 

The full transcript is here, if interested,
https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/25/politics/sheriff-israel-sotu-full-transcript/index.html

A couple of things caught my eye. It is still under investigation. We will have to wait until all of the facts are in.

QUOTE

One of the things that we have heard -- and I don't know if this is true or not -- I can -- hope you can shed light on it -- is that there might have been a stand-down order, somebody on the radio telling Broward deputies not to enter this school until a SWAT team arrived. 

A medical first-responder told local news station WSVN that medical personnel were asking to go into the school, but law enforcement wouldn't let them. 

END QUOTE


----------



## FJAG

Sometimes you just gotta love Samuel L Jackson:



> 'Can someone that's been in a gunfight tell that motherf***** the flaws in his plan': Samuel L Jackson pulls no punches as he savages Trump's idea to stop school shootings by arming teachers



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5431807/Samuel-L-Jackson-pulls-no-punches-savages-Trump.html

 ;D


----------



## OldTanker

As part of my business I write emergency response plans for post-secondary institutions. Without exception every municipal police department, RCMP or other, I have consulted with has advised me the drill is first officer on the scene goes after the shooter and does not wait for backup. This procedure is included in the schools plan so they know what to expect. Something smells really bad with what happened in Florida regarding the police response but I am interested to see what transpires when more investigation is done.


----------



## mariomike

OldTanker said:
			
		

> Something smells really bad with what happened in Florida regarding the police response but I am interested to see what transpires when more investigation is done.



Pure conjecture on my part.

The School Resource Officer ( SRO ) is 54 years old. Been on the job since 1985. We know for sure he did not go in.

Broward Sheriff Officers ( BSO ) arrive. This is the SRO's school until a Supervisor arrives. If he isn't going in, maybe the others take his cue? 

Possible BSO radio-chatter about setting up a perimeter, staging and waiting for SWAT. 

Coral Springs officers begin to arrive. They are not on the same radio frequency as BSO. So, in they go.

That's just armchair speculation about what possibly might have happened. 

As always, we wait for the investigation to be complete before making a rush to judgement. 

I would be interested in hearing the radio tapes.

Some have unofficially dubbed the unarmed Rescue Task Force ( RTF ), "the sitting duck squad."


----------



## daftandbarmy

The US will never give up its guns, so Plan B should include better security.

When a pattern of violence emerges, security agencies usually stand up task forces to address them. I don't see why the Federal Government can't create a 'Soft Target Protection' force of some kind with responsibility for protecting schools, large public events, etc.

In Northern Ireland, we provided that kind of security all the time with cordons, 'no notice' searches, and other measures to provide overt (and under cover) presence to deter potential terrorist attack. These Company and Battalion level operations were integrated with local police divisions and were very effective.


----------



## Haggis

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> In Northern Ireland, we provided that kind of security all the time with cordons, 'no notice' searches, and other measures to provide overt (and under cover) presence to deter potential terrorist attack. These Company and Battalion level operations were integrated with local police divisions and were very effective.



Under the US Posse Comitatus Act, this is generally prohibited.


----------



## mariomike

Haggis said:
			
		

> Under the US Posse Comitatus Act, this is generally prohibited.



For those of us unfamiliar with the Act, or to refresh our memories,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

See also,



			
				Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Can't deploy the Army in the U.S. It's illegal for the president to do so and there is no provision for any State to ask for the Army (Posse Comitatus Act).





			
				daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> The US will never give up its guns, so Plan B should include better security.
> 
> When a pattern of violence emerges, security agencies usually stand up task forces to address them. I don't see why the Federal Government can't create a 'Soft Target Protection' force of some kind with responsibility for protecting schools, large public events, etc.
> 
> In Northern Ireland, we provided that kind of security all the time with cordons, 'no notice' searches, and other measures to provide overt (and under cover) presence to deter potential terrorist attack. These Company and Battalion level operations were integrated with local police divisions and were very effective.



Something similar to this?

Empire Shield: Soldiers stand watch to prevent another 9/11
https://www.army.mil/article/174735/empire_shield_soldiers_stand_watch_to_prevent_another_911


----------



## Strike

WeatherdoG said:
			
		

> This strikes me as a reasonable approach. It provides some extra deterrent to anyone planning an attack, and costs far less than extra police or armed security.



I'm on the fence here.

If a school were to catch fire you certainly wouldn't expect the teachers to grab a hose and work the fire.  You'd want them to make sure the students stay safe, but that might mean grabbing a fire extinguisher at the ready in case they meet fire on the way out of the school.

In the same vein, the responsibility of the teacher when there is an emergency at a school should always be the students, and as such they should never leave them.  I'm worried that, if teachers are armed, people will expect them to go out after the shooter as opposed to covering the students in case the shooter approaches them, either in the classroom or as they are exiting or whatever.

Armed teachers should never be thought of as the tip of the spear, but more as the shield.


----------



## brihard

So here's another one for you. I get dispatched to a school shooting as a cop. I'm one of the first few guys into the place. We hear shooting coming vaguely from a part of the school and we move that way. As we're moving down the south hallways on the main floor, Mr O'Grady, the late twenties teacher in the tech department who had no class that period, comes out of a doorway with his gun drawn also moving towards the sound of the shooting, with kids running down the hallway towards him and us. I move to the sound of shooting and in doing so I see an adult male emerge from a classroom with a gun up and kids in the immediate vicinity.

Worst case, police shoot and kill a teacher. Best case, the first contact team is now stuck in a high risk takedown because they saw a person with a gun, and now because they're dealing with that individual they lose several minutes of time where we could be stopping the *actual* threat, but we think we may be dealing with either the or another suspect.

Even if teachers were to become armed, they had better hunker down in a classroom covering kids. If they go armed into the hallways they are putting themselves at huge risk and hindering the police response because we will be unable in those critical few minutes to differentiate the teacher from the shooter.


----------



## mariomike

Strike said:
			
		

> If a school were to catch fire you certainly wouldn't expect the teachers to grab a hose and work the fire.



A Canadian source,

"2.12 Staff members in charge of students shall NOT attempt to extinguish the fire;"
https://www.hwcdsb.ca/support/communityuseofschools/?fileID=204110

The discussion about arming teachers reminds me of when bank staff in Toronto ( who had trained and qualified on pistol ranges ) used to be armed. That came to an end however when a shot fired by one bank employee ricocheted and killed another employee.

In the recent Florida massacre, the killer created confusion by activating the fire alarm, prior to a lockdown being announced.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Brihard said:
			
		

> Even if teachers were to become armed, they had better hunker down in a classroom covering kids. If they go armed into the hallways they are putting themselves at huge risk and hindering the police response because we will be unable in those critical few minutes to differentiate the teacher from the shooter.



And prepare the school infrastructure accordingly. At my kids' school I asked when they were going to make sure that all the doors opened inward, so they could be more easily barred from the inside. (Blank stares)


----------



## Piece of Cake

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> And prepare the school infrastructure accordingly. At my kids' school I asked when they were going to make sure that all the doors opened inward, so they could be more easily barred from the inside. (Blank stares)


I agree for security reasons, it is best that doors open inward.  However for fire reasons, it is best if the doors open outward.  Due to this, many provinces have building code requiring exit doors to open outwards.


----------



## Strike

Piece of Cake said:
			
		

> I agree for security reasons, it is best that doors open inward.  However for fire reasons, it is best if the doors open outward.  Due to this, many provinces have building code requiring exit doors to open outwards.



From what I've observed in my daughter's school, and remember from my own, classroom doors open in, exit doors open out.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Piece of Cake said:
			
		

> I agree for security reasons, it is best that doors open inward.  However for fire reasons, it is best if the doors open outward.  Due to this, many provinces have building code requiring exit doors to open outwards.



I had no idea... thanks for that.

And given the relative risks, especially in Canada, I'm happy with the outwards opening doors!


----------



## mariomike

Ontario Fire Code

"In every church, school, hall, house or other building used for holding public meetings or as a place of public resort or amusement, every outer door and every door leading from every assembly room or school room shall be hinged so that it will open outwards freely"


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Brihard said:
			
		

> So here's another one for you. I get dispatched to a school shooting as a cop. I'm one of the first few guys into the place. We hear shooting coming vaguely from a part of the school and we move that way. As we're moving down the south hallways on the main floor, Mr O'Grady, the late twenties teacher in the tech department who had no class that period, comes out of a doorway with his gun drawn also moving towards the sound of the shooting, with kids running down the hallway towards him and us. I move to the sound of shooting and in doing so I see an adult male emerge from a classroom with a gun up and kids in the immediate vicinity.
> 
> Worst case, police shoot and kill a teacher. Best case, the first contact team is now stuck in a high risk takedown because they saw a person with a gun, and now because they're dealing with that individual they lose several minutes of time where we could be stopping the *actual* threat, but we think we may be dealing with either the or another suspect.
> 
> Even if teachers were to become armed, they had better hunker down in a classroom covering kids. If they go armed into the hallways they are putting themselves at huge risk and hindering the police response because we will be unable in those critical few minutes to differentiate the teacher from the shooter.



Yet they deal with that all the time because police there have to interact with CCW holders on a regular basis, during routine stops, self-defense shootings and crimes in progress. CCW holders are advised to have the gun holstered,  have it on the ground and hands up and to follow any instructions including allowing them to cuff you till they sort it out.


----------



## mariomike

To add to the armed teacher discussion, several US states - Georgia, Kansas, Ohio, Texas, West Virginia, South Carolina, New York, Tenn., and possibly others, have passed legislation to allow firefighters and paramedics to carry concealed firearms on duty.

Some see it as a workplace safety measure on par with other personal protective equipment ( PPE ) such as ballistic helmets and vests.

Firefighters and paramedics are allowed to carry in restricted areas while on duty.

They require an additional 20 hours of training.
https://www.google.ca/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&ei=68SUWqr7LZCUzwKRmoHwDA&q=%22first+responders%22+carry+guns&oq=%22first+responders%22+carry+guns&gs_l=psy-ab.3..35i39k1.6348.10083.0.10576.2.2.0.0.0.0.109.214.0j2.2.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.1.104....0.VRT2XsO9sEY


----------



## Bird_Gunner45

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> In Northern Ireland, we provided that kind of security all the time with cordons, 'no notice' searches, and other measures to provide overt (and under cover) presence to deter potential terrorist attack. These Company and Battalion level operations were integrated with local police divisions and were very effective.



Except unlike in Northern Ireland there's isn't an actual armed insurrection ongoing. This would violate habeus corpus along with the 4th, 5th, and 9th amendments just to protect the 2nd amendment.


----------



## RocketRichard

This thread appears to mostly have to do with active shooter situations in schools in the U.S. Arming teachers in Canada 'ain't gonna happen'. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Strike

Colin P said:
			
		

> Lost in the noise is that a number of school districts having been allowing teachers to carry, one district had allowed it from 2010 and only recently told the parents, no one realized the teachers were armed.



I've seen that, and some of those schools were even named.  My worry with that is that some Yahoo is going to see this as an extra challenge and they've made themselves a target.


----------



## Old Sweat

As we have seen, churches have sometimes been targeted. As recently as Sunday 25 February police in the Phoenix area intercepted and arrested an armed middle-aged man who was on route to his church. His intention was to shoot as many of the staff and congregation as possible. Something he had said or done had alerted police, who acted in time. 

Add: apparently a prerequisite to qualify as a mass shooter is the ability to describe one's plan on social media. Another local plot was thwarted because the two potential shooters set up a Fund Me page to raise money for their ammunition.


----------



## FJAG

ABC report on the NRA's "Good guy with a gun" theory.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/breaking-nra-backed-theory-good-guy-gun-stops/story?id=53360480

 :cheers:


----------



## daftandbarmy

Strike said:
			
		

> I've seen that, and some of those schools were even named.  My worry with that is that some Yahoo is going to see this as an extra challenge and they've made themselves a target.



Go to the Principal's Office, or else:

An Armed Principal Detained a Campus Gunman. But He’s Against Arming School Staff.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/21/us/school-shootings-teachers.html


----------



## mariomike

QUOTE

Three high-ranking Florida officials close to the law enforcement response at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School tell Fox News there was a delay in Emergency Medical Service getting into the school
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/26/florida-emergency-medical-teams-frustrated-over-delay-in-parkland-school-shooting-response.amp.html

Mike Moser, the Division Chief of Fire Administration for Coral Springs-Parkland Fire Department, which was on scene that day, released a statement in response to the growing requests from reporters about the Rescue Task Force mode — which would have paired up paramedics with law enforcement to enter the building.

One fire official said if there was a delay in the deputies' response, it would have had a domino effect on EMS.

“If they’re not going in then we’re not going in. We’re trained to go in with them,” a fire official told Fox News.

END QUOTE


----------



## brihard

I continue to quite enjoy Neil MacDonald's opinion pieces. HE's somewhat left of me politically on some stuff, but he does a pretty good job of calling stuff as it is regarding our neighbours to the south.


----------



## Loachman

Teachers don't want to be armed? Police think that that's a bad idea?

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/20/us/ohio-concealed-weapons-sheriff/index.html

http://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/hundreds-of-teachers-sign-up-for-free-gun-training-in-ohio

http://www.gwinnettdailypost.com/local/gwinnett-county-sheriff-s-office-offering-gun-training-course-to/article_818526ab-9fce-55d8-826e-36b82fb33db6.html


----------



## Loachman

And my last post for the night.

Take some time to go through https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2018/02/24/policy-and-consequence-broward-county-sheriff-union-president-notes-promise-program-and-consequences/ and the links embedded, especially https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/966854507744374784.html


----------



## mariomike

Perhaps we can discuss gun politics in our 157-page "The Great Gun Control Debate".
https://milnet.ca/forums/threads/28692.3900.html

Our Emergency Services forum can be for the discussion of emergency operations at Active Shooter / Hostile Event ( ASHE ) scenes.
https://www.google.ca/search?dcr=0&ei=FyOWWuXxL5K3zwK00InoBQ&q=%22Active+Shooter+%2F+Hostile%22&oq=%22Active+Shooter+%2F+Hostile%22&gs_l=psy-ab.12..0i22i30k1.5611.37958.0.40660.18.13.0.0.0.0.140.1264.9j4.13.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..7.2.258...0i5i30k1.0.U7UWJslFenM

I believe that is why this thread was split from "The Great Gun Control Debate" in Politics, to the Emergency Services forum in the first place.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Hopefully, the intent of arming a percentage of teachers isn't about sending them out on seek and destroy missions in the hallways. I hope it would be about bunkering down in the classroom, and protecting the kids inside it. I would think a shooter would think twice if he was uncertain about the reception on the other side of that door._* This is not to say I necessarily agree with the idea, but I can see some merit to it. *_

Edited to fix up my last sentence, for clarity.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Hopefully, the intent of arming a percentage of teachers isn't about sending them out on seek and destroy missions in the hallways. I would thin it would be about bunkering down in the classroom, and protecting the kids inside it. I would think a shooter would think twice if he was uncertain about the reception on the other side of that door. This is not to say I necessarily agree with the idea, but I can see some merit to it.



Professional soldiers aren't even safe with the weapons we train them to use full time.

Arm millions of teachers? The deaths and injuries from accidental classroom discharges (ACDs) etc would dwarf school shooting victims within a year.


----------



## dapaterson

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Professional soldiers aren't even safe with the weapons we train them to use full time.
> 
> Arm millions of teachers? The deaths and injuries from accidental classroom discharges (ACDs) etc would dwarf school shooting victims within a year.



"Accidental".  Yes.  Accidental.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZMoB6ms2mE


----------



## FJAG

dapaterson said:
			
		

> "Accidental".  Yes.  Accidental.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZMoB6ms2mE



 :rofl:


----------



## Haggis

Not even cops are entirely safe with guns.  Familiarity breeds complacency.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfONckOPyaI


----------



## FJAG

Georgia Teacher Arrested For Firing Gun in School

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/28/us/georgia-dalton-high-school-teacher-gunfire/index.html

Kinda a timely article for this argument.

 [cheers]


----------



## angus555

Loachman said:
			
		

> And therefore more dead kids and grieving families?


Or maybe more dead kids/police because of random teachers panic shooting in a crowded school.



			
				Loachman said:
			
		

> Who says that they are poorly trained? Many police and military personnel have little interest in firearms and shooting, and will only do the absolute minimum required to qualify (if they cannot find an excuse to avoid doing so completely). Private citizens who carry, openly or concealed, have much more interest in their firearms and many train to levels well above average police personnel.


I see a problem with this. Police and military should be more proficient than private citizens with firearms because that is their job. If we have a country full of private citizens waiting to go to war with each other, that's a sign of a serious problem with social cohesion and trust. More people with firearms exacerbates the "need" to have more firearms for self-defense. Can't teachers just focus on being teachers? 

It's funny to see the argument that gun control is rooted in lack of trust for people. Owning a gun for personal self-defense is the epitome of lack of trust in others.


----------



## Loachman

FJAG said:
			
		

> Georgia Teacher Arrested For Firing Gun in School
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/28/us/georgia-dalton-high-school-teacher-gunfire/index.html
> 
> Kinda a timely article for this argument.



Bad, of course, but, when put into proper context - over 15,000,000 concealed-carry permit holders (which does not include unknown millions more in "constitutional-carry" states) _*did not *_negligently or criminally fire their weapons on the same day.

Meanwhile:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/gun_control/most_adults_with_school_aged_kids_support_arming_teachers 

Most Adults With School-Aged Kids Support Arming Teachers

Wednesday, February 28, 2018

A proposal has been made to give bonuses to teachers who are specially trained to have guns in schools. Americans in general are torn about whether that’s a good idea, but a majority of adults with school-aged children like it. 

A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone and online survey finds that 43% of American Adults favor a proposal to have trained teachers with guns in schools, while 48% oppose such a proposal.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/gun_control/americans_blame_government_more_than_guns_for_florida_massacre 

Americans Blame Government More Than Guns for Florida Massacre

Tuesday, February 27, 2018

Most Americans think government error is more responsible than a lack of gun control for the Valentine’s Day massacre at a Florida high school. 

The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone and online survey finds that 54% of American Adults believe the failure of government agencies to respond to numerous warning signs from the prospective killer is more to blame for the mass shooting. Thirty-three percent (33%) attribute the deaths more to a lack of adequate gun control. Eleven percent (11%) opt for something else. (To see survey question wording, click here.) 

Among Americans who have children of elementary or secondary school age, 61% think the government is more to blame. Just 23% of these adults fault a lack of adequate gun control more.


----------



## FJAG

Just for some perspective re the number of police officers who have ever used their firearms outside of training.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/08/a-closer-look-at-police-officers-who-have-fired-their-weapon-on-duty/

http://www.pointshooting.com/1abirds.htm

 :cheers:


----------



## mariomike

Regarding Emergency Services,

From the Chief of Atlantic Beach, Florida PD,

If you’re a first responder, please continue to train & be proficient in the active shooter response. This includes tactical & incident management of a scene. If you don’t know what ‘rescue task force,’  ‘ambulance exchange point,’ ‘contact team,’ ‘tactical/5th man,’ ‘casualty collection point’ or ‘staging’ means and how police/fire/ems all integrate at a scene then you are already behind the curve.


Rescue Task Force during Stoneman Douglas High School shooting
https://coralspringsconnection.wordpress.com/2018/02/26/coral-springs-parkland-fire-department-uses-rescue-task-force-during-stoneman-douglas-high-school-shooting/

The RTF concept is designed to establish a team of first arriving paramedics and early arriving patrol officers to move quickly into a “warm zone” in an attempt to triage, treat, and evacuate victims. The paramedics’ primary role is to triage, treat, and evacuate the injured, and the primary role of the police officers are to provide protection for those paramedics.

During the initial phases of this operation, we could not confirm that the suspect fled, had been detained, or was confirmed deceased. Although we will not speak to the actions of the Broward Sheriff’s Office commanders, we are confident that this risk of danger to our paramedics was used in their decision making process.


----------



## Loachman

mariomike said:
			
		

> Regarding Emergency Services,
> 
> From the Chief of Atlantic Beach, Florida PD,
> 
> If you’re a first responder, please continue to train & be proficient in the active shooter response. This includes tactical & incident management of a scene. If you don’t know what ‘rescue task force,’  ‘ambulance exchange point,’ ‘contact team,’ ‘tactical/5th man,’ ‘casualty collection point’ or ‘staging’ means and how police/fire/ems all integrate at a scene then you are already behind the curve.



That's wonderful, when it works.

It does not every time, however.


----------



## mariomike

Loachman said:
			
		

> That's wonderful, when it works.
> 
> It does not every time, however.



Do you have a better plan?


----------



## Loachman

FJAG said:
			
		

> Just for some perspective re the number of police officers who have ever used their firearms outside of training.
> 
> http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/08/a-closer-look-at-police-officers-who-have-fired-their-weapon-on-duty/
> 
> http://www.pointshooting.com/1abirds.htm



Fascinating. Thanks.

From the first:

"For example, while solid majorities of those who have and have not fired their weapon favor protecting gun rights over controlling gun ownership, officers who have fired their weapon are somewhat more likely to favor protecting gun rights than those who have not used their firearm. In fact, across a number of gun-related questions, officers who have fired their weapon while on duty are less likely to favor some measures that would restrict gun ownership or provide more government oversight over gun sales."


----------



## brihard

Loachman said:
			
		

> Usually, it's all over by the time that police enter,



Uh, what? In the case of active shooters whose killing goals extend beyond one or two specific targets, no, that's not the case. Most often they suicide once they either detect the arrival and entry of police and the imminent confrontation with same, or once they are effectively engaged by police. Less frequently they are killed by police, or they surrender, or they evade for a time. But no, it's not usually 'all over' by the time police go in.


----------



## Loachman

Okay, "usually" may not have been the best choice. I did not find anything to back that word choice up during a quick search, but I was not wildly off either. Only one good source gave a decent breakdown:

http://www.policeforum.org/assets/docs/Critical_Issues_Series/the%20police%20response%20to%20active%20shooter%20incidents%202014.pdf

CRITICAL ISSUES IN POLICING SERIES

The Police Response to Active Shooter Incidents

March 2014

"... in about half the events, the shooting stopped before police _*arrived at the scene (commented on below)*_. The shooter either committed suicide, or left the scene, or was shot or subdued by victims at the scene.

"These events generally happened very quickly. The most common resolution, in the events that stop before the police arrive, is that the shooter commits suicide. What we tend to see is that the attackers have an initial burst of violence. They have so many victims in front of them; they attack those victims; they run out of victims; and they kill themselves.

"That’s probably not very surprising for most of the police chiefs in this room. What may be a little bit surprising is the number of situations where the people on scene subdue or shoot the attacker themselves. That’s what happened in nearly 40 percent of all the incidents that were resolved before the police arrived. I think that’s important for the discussion about civilian response, which I’ll discuss later (see page 37). And in about 10 percent of the events that stop before the police arrive, the attacker just leaves."

Your "detect the arrival and entry of police and the imminent confrontation with same, or once they are effectively engaged by police" is much more clear than many suggestions that I came across, which leaves room for wide interpretation.

This is a general problem: lack of clear, precise, and universally-accepted definitions of such things as "mass murder/shootings", "gun-free zones", "_*at the scene*_", etcetera.

These can be spun by people on both sides of the argument; typically, the anti-gunners use low numbers (typically three) and include both killed and wounded, and pro-gunners use the traditional four deaths (not including the attacker).

How does one define the presence or influence of police? What constitutes "_*arrived at the scene*_"? Sound of approaching sirens? Pulling up at the entrance? In the building somewhere? Within range of the killer? Or, as in the Columbine case described in:

https://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31/auditing-shooting-rampage-statistics/

Auditing Shooting Rampage Statistics

July 31st, 2012

Submitted by Davi Barker 

"4/20/1999 – Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris were the killers behind the Columbine shooting in Littleton, Colorado. The two both commit suicide after police arrived, but what many people do not know is that the school’s armed security guard and the police all stood and waited outside the library while executions happed right inside. Fifteen people died, not including the shooters."

The time line selected for analysis may influence statistics as well, as the natures of attacks, concealed carry permissions, and police response SOPs and training evolve.

Both of those articles are worth reading. I'm still only part-way through them, and won't have much time to finish for several days.

I am learning more (that I wish was not necessary) from those, and some other articles, (including some credible claims that mental illness (by strict definition) is not as great a factor as most people (including me) believe(d) and that it may be more a case of internalized anger ("injustice collectors" - possibly related to terroristic radicalization as well) in young men, and I hope to be able to delve more into that aspect, especially as it appears to be largely overlooked.

Also an interesting read:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/10/03/do-civilians-with-guns-ever-stop-mass-shootings/?utm_term=.7e694a038fa9

Do citizens (not police officers) with guns ever stop mass shootings? 

By Eugene Volokh October 3, 2015

I've still yet to come across anything that has changed my thinking, beyond a few minor adjustments and updates.


----------



## Loachman

mariomike said:
			
		

> Do you have a better plan?



I have nothing against that plan.

I strongly object, however, to any refusal to consider training and equipping the absolute last line of defence: those teachers who wish to be allowed to defend their students and themselves. Forcing somebody to be a potential victim for ideological reasons is evil.


----------



## mariomike

Loachman said:
			
		

> I strongly object, however, to any refusal to consider training and equipping the absolute last line of defence: those teachers who wish to be allowed to defend their students and themselves. Forcing somebody to be a potential victim for ideological reasons is evil.



My post was regarding Emergency Services, not teachers,



			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> Regarding Emergency Services,


----------



## Loachman

Yes, and that includes police response, non? Which is a major aspect in this topic.

And, in this particular case, both the standard preventative procedures and the response failed.

Miserably.

Morally.

Possibly criminally.

Which is precisely why such plans should never, ever be considered to be the last resort.


----------



## mariomike

Loachman said:
			
		

> Yes, and that includes police response, non?



Yes, 



			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> From the Chief of Atlantic Beach, Florida PD,


----------



## mariomike

March 1, 2018

Ohio signs bill to allow SWAT Paramedics to carry firearms.
https://www.journal-news.com/news/after-three-year-effort-local-lawmaker-kasich-signs-bill-allow-swat-medics-carry-firearms/l4fFKnijE6nf05B2YJb45N/
"It received near-unanimous support in voting with a 92-2 vote in the Ohio House and a 31-0 vote in the Ohio Senate."

“SWAT EMTs are a special breed of individuals,” Retherford said. “They are often employed by local fire departments as a paramedic or EMT and volunteer their time to be the medic for SWAT teams. These men and women are often part of weekly training, learning group SWAT tactics, participate in firearms training and when called out, can very much find themselves in harm’s way, the same as any other member of the team.

What most don’t know is that these medical professionals train shoulder to shoulder with their peers on the professional SWAT teams,” Hagan said. “I have spent time with our tactical training facility professionals in Alliance who are nationally recognized for their efforts. We discussed in great detail the need for this legislation with our officers who train alongside the nation’s elite, including the FBI."


----------



## Furniture

In the Florida example schools are gun free for all but police or peace officers. So given the current state law they would need new special rules, or as posted earlier special deputy status. My suggestion is more along the lines of getting rid of the laws making schools gun free, thereby removing the need for special rules for teachers.

If the example Loachman had given occurred in Florida as far as I am aware the priest could be legally "packing" already so there is no need to change anything or arm priests beyond their own interest, or that of their parishioners. Since his example is from Canada where to my knowledge we have no such access to firearms for self defence, my proposal is that ATCs be given to anyone who can demonstrate the correct training, and has a willingness to carry. With a law like that Teachers would be allowed to carry so that they can defend their students in the highly unlikely event that there is a gunperson running amok in the school. Again my idea is more that those willing and interested enough to do the training on their own have the option to carry, or not regardless of their profession.

Since we are questioning the validity of posts and their value to the discussion and community, what does your obvious baiting contribute to the discussion?


----------



## brihard

Could the gun control stuff all be split from the active shooter response split back into the gun control thread?


----------



## mariomike

Broward Sheriff's Captain gave initial order to 'stage' not enter Stoneman Douglas High School during a massacre.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/05/broward-sheriffs-captain-who-gave-initial-order-to-stage-not-enter-stoneman-douglas-is-idd.html


----------



## Fishbone Jones

I've been thinking on this. I'm going to try remain balanced.

Denial of Access - Schools should be locked during school hours. Coming late requires an administrator, not a teacher to let you in. ALL school points of access to classrooms should be behind hardened doors with command locks. As soon as a problem is identified (gunshot) the panic button gets hit and all access from the hallways is ended. Or simply, a proper sized pipe slid over the arm on the automatic door closer will stop the door from being opened.

Arming Teachers - Proper training is paramount. No excuses. Teachers are not required to hunt the active shooter. Their job is to protect the students by denying access to the classroom. _IF_ he gets in the door, _THEN_ the teacher engages. Otherwise they stay with the students till the all clear is given.

I'll have to dig around but I seem to recall a couple of college or university incidents that were thwarted by a student carrying concealed.

Just some thoughts on how things _might_ be handled if we're looking for answers. Go ahead and tear them apart, I'm spitballing here.


----------



## brihard

mariomike said:
			
		

> Broward Sheriff's Captain gave initial order to 'stage' not enter Stoneman Douglas High School during a massacre.
> http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/05/broward-sheriffs-captain-who-gave-initial-order-to-stage-not-enter-stoneman-douglas-is-idd.html



Ouch. That changes things somewhat. If he was taking critical incident command )initially, or as a trained incident commander), then that certainly has an effect on the rightness or wrongness of the response of other officers. I'll have to read into this further when I have time.


----------



## mariomike

First report of staging and perimeter was from Fox News. Reply #105.

This is from CBS,

QUOTE

Another claim focuses on Parkland District Commander Captain Jan Jordan and her radio transmission asking if a perimeter had been set up around the school.

CLAIM: “A BSO captain told deputies to form a perimeter around the deadly scene instead of going in to confront the shooter.”

BSO RESPONSE: “The shooting had stopped….The question was asked following transmissions by law enforcement on scene advising of victims located at the football field and near the entrance of Westglades Middle School. Other transmissions stated the location of the suspect was unknown and at least one other communicated units were making entry.”

BSO says that when Captain Jordan asked about that perimeter, Nikolas Cruz was gone from Building 1200, the freshman building. A law enforcement source tells CBS4 News that , at that point, if the shooting had stopped and Cruz was no longer on the premises, setting up a perimeter was exactly the right thing to do.

BSO RESPONSE: BSO says “A perimeter…would be appropriate to apprehend the suspect, stop him from entering the neighboring middle school and prevent non-first responders from coming on the school property…”

Another claim involves the communications between BSO and Coral Springs Police and Fire Rescue. The initial 911 calls from the shooting were received by dispatchers in Coral Springs, not from BSO.

CLAIM: “Real-time audio from dispatch records reveal errors in the law enforcement response.”

BSO RESPONSE: “Coral Springs Fire Rescue was dispatched to the scene of an active shooter. BSO was dispatched shortly after to a call of possible shots fired. Initially, Coral Springs officers and BSO deputies were working on separate radio channels until the channels were patched together. The patching of radio channels was impeded by the fact Coral Springs is not part of the regional communications system. The patching of channels came after the shooter left the school.”

BSO School Resource Officer Scot Peterson quit after learning that he would be suspended for failing to go into the school while the shooter was inside carrying out his murderous rampage. The information released by BSO on Tuesday did not address the accusation that other 3 BSO deputies may have also failed to enter the school.

Another claim is whether deputies were told not to enter the school unless they had body cameras on. BSO says that is absolutely false.

BSO also says that their deputies regularly undergo active shooter training and that the agency is promising transparency throughout this process but cannot release certain records and information because of a number of investigations into the shooting and the response to it.

http://miami.cbslocal.com/2018/03/06/bso-parkland-florida-claims-facts-marjory-stoneman-douglas/

END QUOTE


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Too busy looking at blaming, than moving forward to a better solution. That's what wrong. :facepalm:


----------



## Colin Parkinson

The shooter does not seem to be the target of the blame though.


----------



## mariomike

Governor Scott directed the Florida Department of Law Enforcement ( FDLE ) to investigate the response to the Parkland massacre.

The Report may take time.

eg: The Final Report of the "INDEPENDENT REVIEW OF THE 2017 PROTEST EVENTS IN CHARLOTTESVILLE, VIRGINIA" was only recently released.

It's 220 pages. But, with so much news since then, outside of Emergency Services, how many members of the public will read it? 

The reaction may be the same when the Parkland report is released.


----------



## muskrat89

Interesting discussion. I oversee campus security on a University campus in Phoenix. I teach Active Shooter response to staff and faculty. As an aside, I'm part of an armed Church security team at a large Church. I'm also a member of the Association of Threat Assessment Professionals (ATAP) I have lots of pertinent perspectives. That being said, I need to read four more pages in order to get caught up lol


----------



## muskrat89

Brihard said:
			
		

> But no, it's not usually 'all over' by the time police go in.



About 60% of the incidents in the US are over by the time the police get there, based on the 2013 study of active shooters between 2000 and 2013. Not sure what that equates to when you roll in data from 2013 until now. When I do Active Shooter presentations for varying entities, I draw a lot of my statistics from this report. I do note the date of the report when I cite statistics however. Also note that this report isn't specific to school shootings only.

http://www.firestorm.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/k2_attachments_U-_ActiveShooter13B_WEB.pdf

INCIDENTS
■ An average of 11.4 incidents occurred annually.
■ An average of 6.4 incidents occurred in the first 7 years studied, and an average of 16.4
occurred in the last 7 years.
■ 70.0% of the incidents occurred in either a commerce/business or educational
environment.
■ Shootings occurred in 40 of 50 states and the District of Columbia.
■ 60.0% of the incidents ended before police arrived

CASUALTIES
■ Casualties (victims killed and wounded) totaled 1,043. The individual shooters are not
included in this total.
■ A total of 486 individuals were killed.
■ A total of 557 individuals were wounded.
■ In 64 incidents (40.0%), the crime would have fallen within the federal definition of
“mass killing”—defined as “three or more” killed—under the new federal statute.

INCIDENTS WITH THE HIGHEST CASUALTY COUNTS:
■ Cinemark Century 16 Theater in Aurora, Colorado:
70 (12 killed, 58 wounded), July 20, 2012.
■ Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University in Blacksburg, Virginia:
49 (32 killed, 17 wounded), April 16, 2007.
■ Ft. Hood Soldier Readiness Processing Center in Ft. Hood, Texas:
45 (13 killed, 32 wounded), November 5, 2009.
■ Sandy Hook Elementary School and a residence in Newtown, Connecticut:
29 (27 killed, 2 wounded), December 14, 2012.

SHOOTERS
■ All but 2 incidents involved a single shooter.
■ In at least 9 incidents, the shooter first shot and killed a family member(s) in a
residence before moving to a more public location to continue shooting.
■ In at least 6 incidents, the shooters were female.
■ In 64 incidents (40.0%), the shooters committed suicide; 54 shooters did so at the scene
of the crime.
■ At least 5 shooters from 4 incidents remain at large.


----------



## mariomike

From Canadian Politics,



			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> *
> Canadian content only, please. Let's try clean this up a bit. Start an new thread if you want to discuss US or other nations gun laws. Tanks!*



From Emergency Services,



			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> Could the gun control stuff all be split from the active shooter response split back into the gun control thread?



I am starting a new thread in Global Politics to discuss US or other nations gun laws,
https://milnet.ca/forums/threads/127588.0.html


----------



## RocketRichard

mariomike said:
			
		

> From Canadian Politics,
> 
> From Emergency Services,
> 
> I am starting a new thread in Global Politics to discuss US or other nations gun laws,
> https://milnet.ca/forums/threads/127588.0.html


Excellent. Thanks MM. Our situation in Canada: incidents, threats, school shootings and responses are mostly very different from the U.S. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## mariomike

When First Responders are having an emergency they can count on Motorola to ...go into a 'throttling event,' where it starts to slow down and restrict First Responders from submitting inbound requests to the system,

QUOTE

Years After Sept. 11, Critical Incidents Still Overload Emergency Radios

If you go back and listen to the recording of the Broward County radio dispatch system during the shooting at Stoneman Douglas High School last month, you can hear the frustration the voices of police.

"I can't transmit for some reason," says one officer. Other first responders echo the complaint.

"Just so you know, we're having trouble transmitting," says another person, and more than once, you hear a general plea for users to limit their communications to "10-33 calls" — radio code for an emergency.

"All cities, all radios be advised to keep your traffic to a minimum. With each transmission, it's causing it to crash, it's overloaded right now, per Motorola."

END QUOTE

To read the rest of the story,
https://www.npr.org/2018/03/12/591906701/18-years-after-sept-11-critical-incidents-still-overload-emergency-radios


----------



## mariomike

QUOTE

"Rescue Task Force? Nope. Train Them & Arm Them"
https://loadoutroom.com/thearmsguide/rescue-task-force-nope-train-arm/
"I will never support this unarmed task force crap."

END QUOTE

I have read commentary lately regarding arming Rescue Task Force paramedics. Referring to unarmed RTF paramedics as "the sitting duck squad".

It is important to understand the similarities and differences between Rescue Task Force ( RTF ) paramedics and Emergency Task Force ( ETF ) paramedics.

ETF paramedics are “attached” to the police.

Whereas RTF is a trained, but hastily formed group of paramedics that partner with police on scene for rapid deployment into an ASHE.

ETF and RTF paramedics both wear ballistic vests and helmets.

RTF focuses on using whatever assets happen to be on hand, instead of waiting for ETF.

There is also a financial consideration to arming ETF and RTF paramedics. 

Unarmed ETF paramedics in Toronto receive a $1000.00 ( pensionable ) annual premium ( 2105 rate. It has increased slightly since then. )

The author suggests arming paramedics who are deploying into an ASHE. That may, or may not, be a good idea.

But, there would be a cost factor in arming and training. Also, as an added skill set to their job description, a pensionable premium would have to be negotiated / arbitrated with the union.


----------



## mariomike

Are Canada's paramedics and hospitals prepared for a Chemical Weapons Attack ...not really.

QUOTE

Apr 16, 2018

MacLean's

The antidote atropine dries up the excessive salivation and reduces secretions that clog up the airways, countering the effects of excess acetylcholine. Atropine is most commonly used in heart rhythm disturbances where up to one milligram of Atropine is used, but patients with organophosphate poisoning may require up to 100 milligrams.  That far exceeds the three milligram stock of an ambulance, and may even deplete an entire hospital of its supply.

Another drug used for severe cases is pralidoxime, which relieves the muscular effects of the nerve toxin. For weaponized pesticides, pralidoxime needs to be administered within minutes, before the poison binds irreversibly to its target; but pralidoxime is a hard drug to find outside of large hospitals. In some cities, specialized ambulances carry a few doses, but most do not, and even large downtown hospitals only have a handful of doses stocked.
http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/is-canada-prepared-for-a-chemical-weapon-attack-like-the-one-in-the-u-k/

END QUOTE

Toronto has CBRNE paramedics. Not sure about the rest of the country.


----------



## mariomike

Chicago holds the city’s largest active-shooter drill.
https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/police-fire-officials-hold-city-largest-active-shooter-drill-at-whitney-young/
"Lines of ambulances and police cruisers outside the school drew curious glances from passersby when the drill began with a fire alarm Thursday evening. Police then pushed back pedestrians and media from the area, to avoid revealing their strategies during the roughly three-hour drill, officials said."


----------



## Inspir

> Toronto has CBRNE paramedics. Not sure about the rest of the country.



Alberta Health Services EMS has them as well. Incident Response Paramedic Team. When not dealing with CBRNE incidents they respond as/when needed to medical calls in their PRU.


----------



## mariomike

Reference,

"29 Jan 2017: Multiple dead after shooting at Quebec City mosque"  ( Locked )
https://army.ca/forums/threads/125094/post-1530787.html#msg1530787

QUOTE

CBC
May 31, 2018 

Another death is being attributed to the Jan. 29, 2017 shooting spree at a Quebec City mosque.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/paramedic-ptsd-mosque-shooting-1.4684611

END QUOTE

Paramedic Andréanne Leblanc responded to 29 Jan 2017: Multiple dead after shooting at Quebec City mosque. 

She was offered one hour of counselling. She killed herself. They found her dressed in her Paramedic uniform.

Regarding the Parkland, Florida massacre,

QUOTE

May 31, 2018 
Miami Herald

Paramedics wanted to enter Parkland school where kids were dying. BSO said no.

During the chaos of the Parkland school shooting, paramedics from Coral Springs-Parkland Fire Department were desperate to go inside the building where students were wounded and dying.

Michael McNally, deputy chief for Coral Springs fire-rescue, asked six times for permission to send in specialized teams of police officers and paramedics, according to an incident report he filed after the Feb. 14 Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School shooting that left 17 people dead.

But every time McNally asked to deploy the two Rescue Task Force teams — each made up of three paramedics and three to four law enforcement officers — the Broward Sheriff's Office captain in charge of the scene, Jan Jordan, said no. 

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article212296004.html

END QUOTE


----------



## Colin Parkinson

mariomike said:
			
		

> Are Canada's paramedics and hospitals prepared for a Chemical Weapons Attack ...not really.
> 
> QUOTE
> 
> Apr 16, 2018
> 
> MacLean's
> 
> The antidote atropine dries up the excessive salivation and reduces secretions that clog up the airways, countering the effects of excess acetylcholine. Atropine is most commonly used in heart rhythm disturbances where up to one milligram of Atropine is used, but patients with organophosphate poisoning may require up to 100 milligrams.  That far exceeds the three milligram stock of an ambulance, and may even deplete an entire hospital of its supply.
> 
> Another drug used for severe cases is pralidoxime, which relieves the muscular effects of the nerve toxin. For weaponized pesticides, pralidoxime needs to be administered within minutes, before the poison binds irreversibly to its target; but pralidoxime is a hard drug to find outside of large hospitals. In some cities, specialized ambulances carry a few doses, but most do not, and even large downtown hospitals only have a handful of doses stocked.
> http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/is-canada-prepared-for-a-chemical-weapon-attack-like-the-one-in-the-u-k/
> 
> END QUOTE
> 
> Toronto has CBRNE paramedics. Not sure about the rest of the country.



How stable are the drugs? will they last in an ambulance environment? Does it make sense to have the stocks split between the local hospital, where they be in a stable environment and can be rushed to a scene by supervisors and such?


----------



## brihard

Naloxone. Lots and lots of Naloxone. You want a real CBRNE threat, just look at the easy access to high potency synthetic opioids on the dark web. Easy to get, easy to disperse for mass cas chemical effect.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Fentayal bomb with powder and a bursting charge?


----------



## brihard

Colin P said:
			
		

> Fentayal bomb with powder and a bursting charge?



Carfentanil if you can get it (and you can), ideally dropped or dispersed onto a crowd from a modest height in a light wind, I would think.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Brihard said:
			
		

> Carfentanil if you can get it (and you can), ideally dropped or dispersed onto a crowd from a modest height in a light wind, I would think.



It doesn't sound like you've thought about, or planned, that at all.... nope  ;D


----------



## The Bread Guy

Via publicintelligence.net ...


> *FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit Guide: The School Shooter – A Quick Reference*
> 
> REMEMBER
> 
> There is no one “profile” of a school shooter.
> School shootings are rarely impulsive acts and are typically planned out in advance by the offender.
> Prior to most school shootings, other persons (friends, peers) knew that the offender was contemplating violence.
> Few attackers issue direct threats to their targets before the attack.
> Common motives behind an attack include revenge, a desire for dominant control, and a hope for infamy/notoriety.
> While impossible to predict violent behavior, it is possible to prevent some attacks via effective threat assessment and management strategies.
> 
> Threat Assessment – 11 Key Questions
> (Safe Schools Initiative, USSS/ED, 2002)
> 
> 1. What are the student’s motive(s) and goals?
> 2. Have there been any communications suggesting ideas or intent to attack?
> 3. Has the student shown inappropriate interest in school attacks, weapons, and/or mass violence?
> 4. Has the student engaged in any attack-related behaviors?
> 5. Does the student have the capacity to carry out an act of targeted violence?
> 6. Is the student experiencing hopelessness, desperation and/or despair?
> 7. Does the student have a trusting relationship with at least one responsible adult?
> 8. Does the student see violence as an acceptable/desirable way to solve problems?
> 9. Is the student’s version of events consistent with his/her actions?
> 10. Are other people concerned about the student’s potential for violence?
> 11. What circumstances might affect the likelihood of an attack?
> 
> (...)


More (including stats & "Concerning Behaviors and Potential Warning Signs") @ link or in attached 1-page PDF if link doesn't work.


----------



## mariomike

'Leaving casualties for three hours without any treatment by Paramedics was a breach of protocol.' 
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7150493/Ambulance-chief-admits-took-long-London-Bridge-terror-attack-hot-zone.html

Paramedics finally arrived at 1am, despite the terrorists being killed at 10.16pm.


----------



## daftandbarmy

mariomike said:
			
		

> 'Leaving casualties for three hours without any treatment by Paramedics was a breach of protocol.'
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7150493/Ambulance-chief-admits-took-long-London-Bridge-terror-attack-hot-zone.html
> 
> Paramedics finally arrived at 1am, despite the terrorists being killed at 10.16pm.



Meanwhile...


A Met chief stayed in his car during an attack. That’s not leadership 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/12/met-chief-car-attack-craig-mackey-westminster-officers


----------



## mariomike

Paramedics going into an active shooter situation as part of a Rescue Task Force ( RTF ) without ballistic protection? 

Welcome to Florida,



> Active shooter training goes on without ballistic protection for Hillsborough County paramedics
> https://www.wfla.com/8-on-your-side/active-shooter-training-goes-on-without-ballistic-protection-for-hillsborough-county-paramedics/
> Sheriff lays decision for no vests on Hillsborough County Fire Rescue


----------



## mariomike

Want to have a garlic festival? They recommend perimeter fences, roving police patrols, drones, security cameras, social media monitoring, bag checks, metal detectors, restricted entry and an “overwatch” police unit that monitors the event from a high perch.
https://www.apnews.com/ce30fbf200d5468d8ccb4e6f6b9b20e9


----------



## daftandbarmy

mariomike said:
			
		

> Want to have a garlic festival? They recommend perimeter fences, roving police patrols, drones, security cameras, social media monitoring, bag checks, metal detectors, restricted entry and an “overwatch” police unit that monitors the event from a high perch.
> https://www.apnews.com/ce30fbf200d5468d8ccb4e6f6b9b20e9



Sadly, that kinda sounds like my old job ... fighting one of the most effective terrorist organizations in the world #americaisterrorizingitself


----------



## mariomike

Apart from the political discussion, some tactical considerations regarding Active Shooters,

Rescue Task Force ( RTF )

First arriving street paramedics ( NOT tactical paramedics ) team up with 2 patrol officers to move quickly into “warm” zone areas along cleared corridors to initiate treatment and evacuation of victims.

2 patrol officers for front and rear security and 2 street medics in ballistic gear with supplies to treat up to 14 patients.

“Stabilize, position, and move on”

Once the first RTF runs out of supplies, they grab a victim and evacuate out.

RTF re-supply near point of entry.


----------



## mariomike

Video: Massive panic as people flee Times Square over fears of an active shooter. Total chaos over a backfire from a motorcycle. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMeAEDz1RRo


----------



## mariomike

Schools are now being designed to make it more difficult for active shooters.

Curved hallways to reduce a shooter’s range, jutting barriers to provide cover and egress, and meticulously spaced classrooms that can lock on demand and hide students in the corner, out of a shooter’s sight.

Similar to zig zag in trench warfare.


----------



## Remius

Sad state of affairs.


----------



## daftandbarmy

mariomike said:
			
		

> Schools are now being designed to make it more difficult for active shooters.
> 
> Curved hallways to reduce a shooter’s range, jutting barriers to provide cover and egress, and meticulously spaced classrooms that can lock on demand and hide students in the corner, out of a shooter’s sight.
> 
> Similar to zig zag in trench warfare.



Source article in the Washington post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/08/22/new-high-school-will-have-sleek-classrooms-places-hide-mass-shooter/?noredirect=on


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Am I the only seeing the flaw in the plan?

If you make it harder for the active shooter to do his work by reducing sight line and providing cover/egress routes that are protected, or hiding corners in classrooms, you are also providing the shooter with all those same protections against the police trying to intervene to stop him. 

He will be slower at getting at a large number of students, but the police will have to clear each one of those obstacles not knowing who they will find behind each one, and so will also be a lot slower.


----------



## Remius

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Am I the only seeing the flaw in the plan?
> 
> If you make it harder for the active shooter to do his work by reducing sight line and providing cover/egress routes that are protected, or hiding corners in classrooms, you are also providing the shooter with all those same protections against the police trying to intervene to stop him.
> 
> He will be slower at getting at a large number of students, but the police will have to clear each one of those obstacles not knowing who they will find behind each one, and so will also be a lot slower.



Do most shooters not normally stop when police arrive on scene and engage?  Don't quote me on this but when police arrive and contain a situation a lot of these guys end up shooting themselves.  is it not more beneficial to reduce casualties at the onset and then let the police do their jobs however long it takes?


----------



## RocketRichard

mariomike said:
			
		

> Schools are now being designed to make it more difficult for active shooters.
> 
> Curved hallways to reduce a shooter’s range, jutting barriers to provide cover and egress, and meticulously spaced classrooms that can lock on demand and hide students in the corner, out of a shooter’s sight.
> 
> Similar to zig zag in trench warfare.


I don’t believe this has been a factor in construction nor remodelling of Canadian schools. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mariomike

The new schoolhouse design might, or might not, help prevent something similar to the Columbine disaster where Coach Saunders lay bleeding from a GSW. He was shot at 11:26 . Paramedics finally reached him at 15:24 Unfortunately, he had bled out by then.

It's not just schools. Big box stores, open bars, night clubs, outdoor events like the country music festival in Las Vegas or the garlic festival in California. 

RTF may not be the correct response at these scenes, at least in concept, since there are no hallways, there are no hidden corners left for victims to secure themselves in, or for the shooter to find cover and concealment.

Is it an active shooter or a barricaded sniper in an elevated position? RTF is of limited use in some events, as the number of victims are increasing and, more importantly, the types of environments in which they are being injured and killed are evolving.


----------



## The Bread Guy

RomeoJuliet said:
			
		

> I don’t believe this has been a factor in construction nor remodelling of Canadian schools.


Yet ...


----------



## RocketRichard

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Yet ...


I remain optimistic that we will not have major issues for school (K-12) shootings. I believe there have been 4 in Canada. One is far too many. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FSTO

What has happened to society that we are even contemplating having to specially design schools to limit the carnage from an active shooter?

Back when I was in school in rural Manitoba in the 70's, there was likely more firepower sitting in the parking lot of my high school then was in the local hardware store or at the RCMP detachment. We had bullies, we had fist fights, we had schoolmates with I'm sure dark thoughts in their heads. But we never ever considered going out to the pickup or (in the case of town kids) going home to get a rifle to shoot up the school, never crossed my mind and I was one angry SOB in my last couple of years at high school.
So what happened?


----------



## RocketRichard

FSTO said:
			
		

> What has happened to society that we are even contemplating having to specially design schools to limit the carnage from an active shooter?
> 
> Back when I was in school in rural Manitoba in the 70's, there was likely more firepower sitting in the parking lot of my high school then was in the local hardware store or at the RCMP detachment. We had bullies, we had fist fights, we had schoolmates with I'm sure dark thoughts in their heads. But we never ever considered going out to the pickup or (in the case of town kids) going home to get a rifle to shoot up the school, never crossed my mind and I was one angry SOB in my last couple of years at high school.
> So what happened?


I think that designing schools to counter active shooters is happening in American society not Canadian society.  


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----------



## mariomike

For anyone interested in modern facility management,

The Role of Buildings in Mass Shootings
https://www.buildings.com/article-details/articleid/16988/title/the-role-of-buildings-in-mass-shootings/viewall/true


----------



## brihard

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Am I the only seeing the flaw in the plan?
> 
> If you make it harder for the active shooter to do his work by reducing sight line and providing cover/egress routes that are protected, or hiding corners in classrooms, you are also providing the shooter with all those same protections against the police trying to intervene to stop him.
> 
> He will be slower at getting at a large number of students, but the police will have to clear each one of those obstacles not knowing who they will find behind each one, and so will also be a lot slower.



You greatly overestimate how much this would slow police, I think. An active shooter response isn’t slow, thorough, or methodical when things are still happening. It’s an advance to contact, driven by immediately perceived intelligence- sound of shots, screams, immediate info from victims/witnesses. It’s not “barricade right” or piecing the pie for every cubby. A lot gets bypassed. Yes, a shooter very deliberately choosing to fight police would enjoy those advantages too- but if they have goal-reoriented to fight police, that’s still a good thing in contrast with shooting kids. 100% of the time, police will win.



			
				Remius said:
			
		

> Do most shooters not normally stop when police arrive on scene and engage?  Don't quote me on this but when police arrive and contain a situation a lot of these guys end up shooting themselves.  is it not more beneficial to reduce casualties at the onset and then let the police do their jobs however long it takes?



Exactly correct. The goal of any use of force by police is a change in subject behaviour. From “active threat”, i.e., shooting kids, anything is an improvement. The possibilities generally are suicide (common), barricade and negotiate (uncommon but it happens), or fight it out to death or capture. Barricade and negotiate (to surrender) is ‘best case’. Suicide will do in a pinch. If they fight it out that will suck, but better they goal reorient on fighting a fight against police that will rapidly become extremely unfair and that they will lose.

There’s a portion of an episode from the TV show “19:2” (fictionalized version of Montreal police) that we use as an intro when we teach active shooter. Skip to 7:30 for the start. The tactics are less than stellar, but it’s about as good as a TV show will get for what a response to a school shooting will feel like as it’s happening. The officers in the show do keep pushing to the threat, which is realistic. And you see the impacts of human emotions as they might play out to responders, as well as efforts to establish command and control in real time. Fog of war, and collapsing situational awareness play out too. Caution: very graphic. https://vimeo.com/179291152


----------



## mariomike

Brihard said:
			
		

> There’s a portion of an episode from the TV show “19:2” (factionalized version of Montreal police) that we use as an intro when we teach active shooter.



Apparently based on the 2006 Dawson College shooting in Montreal. 1 killed. 19 injured. Perp committed suicide.

Calgary Rescue Task Force ( RTF )
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ul85uqxff6webct/AAA7ZYvTWFwbZQ0J5rAKJ3G9a?dl=0&preview=RTF+B-ROLL+for+MEDIA.mp4


----------



## daftandbarmy

Fire is still a far greater threat to life and limb, statistically, than mass shootings. It would make sense to design buildings accordingly, which I think most of them already are.


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Fire is still a far greater threat to life and limb, statistically, than mass shootings. It would make sense to design buildings accordingly, which I think most of them already are.



I think what our emergency services are considering is having large masses herded into crowded and confined hallways. Moving along a straight corridor in mass during an ASHE. 

Pulling the fire alarm in a school or high-rise could  
unlock every door in the building (or at least the stair towers). 

Victims could be channeled into crowded and predictable avenues of egress where they can be intercepted and shot. Or targeted at the designated assembly point. 

It's not just schools and buildings that require planning.

For open air festivals they recommend perimeter fences, roving police patrols, drones, security cameras, social media monitoring, bag checks, metal detectors, restricted entry and an “overwatch” police unit that monitors the event from a high perch.

August, 2019

Mass Casualty Trauma Triage Paradigms and Pitfalls
https://www.jems.com/articles/news/2019/08/report-mass-casualty-trauma-triage-paradigms-and-pitfalls.html

The report suggests the traditional triage approach used by paramedics for decades is no longer feasible to effectively respond to ASHE.


----------



## mariomike

NYPD's Counter Terrorism Unit, Tweets about NYC's first day of school.
https://twitter.com/NYPDCT/status/1169344639599554561 …


----------



## RocketRichard

mariomike said:
			
		

> NYPD's Counter Terrorism Unit, Tweets about NYC's first day of school.
> https://twitter.com/NYPDCT/status/1169344639599554561 …


IMHO inappropriate in conjunction with back to school. Different scene in the U.S. I suppose. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## The Bread Guy

This (19-minute podcast) from the NJ DHS ...


> Mental illnesses are extremely common; mass violence is not. Despite the fear and public scrutiny, mass shootings are statistically rare events. But it is hard for most people to imagine that a mentally healthy person would deliberately commit an act of mass murder; thus, it is often assumed that the perpetrators of mass violence must be mentally ill. There is a tendency to overuse mental health problems as an explanation for violence, but the relationship is far more complex than typically presented. While there is a modest link between mental illness and violence, there is no basis for a generalized fear of people with mental illness. Having a mental illness does not predispose someone to violence of any type, and certainly not mass violence.
> 
> In our Season Four finale, Steve Crimando of the New Jersey Department of Human Services’ Disaster and Terrorism Branch joins us again to unpack this complicated relationship and offer insights into the programs and resources that address both mental health and mass violence in the State ...


----------



## Jarnhamar

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/texas-church-shooting-latest-jack-wilson-suspect-keith-thomas-kinnunen-white-settlement-fort-worth-a9265041.html



Man brought a shotgun (I think I read) to a crowded church of over 200 and started shooting. Within 6 seconds he already killed 2 but another man, a firearms instructor, stood up and shot him once putting an end to the shooting and undoubtedly saving many more lives.

6 seconds is a pretty solid response time to end a shooting.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Saw the video. Single head shot from 15-20 metres away, then other armed guys swarm toward the perpetrator.


----------



## OldSolduer

Target Up said:
			
		

> Saw the video. Single head shot from 15-20 metres away, then other armed guys swarm toward the perpetrator.



I've seen the video as well. One hell of a shot. 

Saves an expensive trial and lengthy incarceration.


----------



## Infanteer

On one hand, you can applaud the use of firearms to end a situation with a rampaging gunman.

On the other hand, you can lament the fact that the average American needs to be armed in a church, a school, or a waffle house to ensure they are safe from rampaging gunmen.  I'll take Canada over that any day.


----------



## CBH99

Not to sound morbid, just professionally curious.

Is the video of him responding in the news link??  It kept jumbling around while loading various ads, I couldn't find it.  If it's there, I'll take another look.  Sounds worth watching.


----------



## FJAG

CBH99 said:
			
		

> Not to sound morbid, just professionally curious.
> 
> Is the video of him responding in the news link??  It kept jumbling around while loading various ads, I couldn't find it.  If it's there, I'll take another look.  Sounds worth watching.



This link is about the machete attack oin New York but some two paras down contains an uncut version of the shooting in Texas.

https://pluralist.com/granfton-thomas-hate-crimes-jews-friends-say-hes-not-violent/49999/?fbclid=IwAR0D0AgMuxO4PGg8FZJB7wDhqpMCVLpIjgETEvdUDlcbLTlblmhLbKvDgeA


----------



## mariomike

When sent into the apocalypse, accept no substitutes,

An ambulance that has run flat tire inserts, ballistic glass & a full envelope of Level IIIA ballistic Kevlar throughout.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5i-JucB8fE


----------



## mariomike

Active Shooter Incidents in the U.S. in 2020 https://fbi.gov/file-repository/active-shooter-incidents-in-the-us-2020-070121.pdf/view… The FBI has designated 40 shootings in 2020 as active shooter incidents. The FBI defines an active shooter as one or more individuals actively engaged in killing or attempting to kill people in a populated area.


----------



## CBH99

mariomike said:


> When sent into the apocalypse, accept no substitutes,
> 
> An ambulance that has run flat tire inserts, ballistic glass & a full envelope of Level IIIA ballistic Kevlar throughout.


I drove an ambulance here in Alberta for AHS in the not too distant past, that had over 300,000km on it and the light bar started smoking when I turned it on…

I think we have a long way to go here before getting a beast like that 😅


----------



## mariomike

Saw this in another thread,



Remius said:


> And not try to project that onto other professions. Not saying anyone is but just something to keep in mind.



Staging at Active Shooter / Hostile Event ( ASHE ) until Emergency Task Force ( ETF ) aka SWAT aka Tactical arrived On Scene was the S.O.P.

Then came Columbine.

Now it's Rescue Task Force ( RTF ).



> First arriving street paramedics ( NOT tactical paramedics ) team up with 2 patrol officers to move quickly into “warm” zone areas along cleared corridors to initiate treatment and evacuation of victims.
> 2 patrol officers for front and rear security and 2 street paramedics in ballistic gear with supplies to treat up to 14 patients.
> “Stabilize, position, and move on”
> Once the first RTF runs out of supplies, they grab a victim and evacuate out.
> RTF re-supply near point of entry.





> Paramedics are reminded of their responsibility under the Occupational Health and Safety Act, Section 43, (1) and (2).2 These sections exclude paramedics from the right to refuse work where the circumstances are inherent in their work and/or if the work refusal would directly endanger the health and safety of another person.


----------



## mariomike

Looks like the alleged ASHE subway perp wanted to get caught.



> Subway suspect calls cops from McDonald's



Probably the last Big Mac he will be having for a long time, if convicted.









						April 13, 2022
					

Visit the post for more.




					nypost.com
				












						April 14, 2022
					

Visit the post for more.




					nypost.com


----------



## mariomike

The Uvalde, Texas discussion, in the Scarborough SIU discussion, reminded me of the case of the Parkland, Florida SRO back in 2018.

It will be going to trial, but has not yet been scheduled.









						Judge says case against former Parkland school resource officer Scot Peterson can go to trial | CNN
					

A Florida judge ruled Thursday that a case may proceed against former Broward County Sheriff's Deputy Scot Peterson, a school resource officer who was widely criticized after he failed to confront a shooter during the deadly massacre at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in February 2018.




					www.cnn.com
				






> Prosecutors are taking a novel approach and will have to show that Peterson, a law enforcement officer, was a caregiver and exposed students and teachers to harm with his actions, with reckless disregard for their lives, attorneys have told CNN.


----------



## mariomike

Another ASHE. This time in Highland Park, ILL.

R.I.P.


----------



## brihard

mariomike said:


> Another ASHE. This time in Highland Park, ILL.
> 
> R.I.P.


Sounds like they’ve got him in custody. From the videos I saw, sounded like he fired off 2x 30 round mags about as fast as he could, then took off.


----------



## brihard

Ugh. Yeah, lots of media out from the scene on this. The entire event took less than thirty seconds- he ripped off two full mags in a very rapid semi auto dump. He was literally reloading before people realized it wasn’t fireworks or part of the show. The situation was so fast and disjointed they people were literally still applauding a band as it broke and ran.

Short of having police with scoped semiautos on rooftops along the route, I don’t know what police could have done on scene to detect and interdict this. I bet people watching from roofs isn’t even that strange in its own right.


----------



## KevinB

brihard said:


> Sounds like they’ve got him in custody. From the videos I saw, sounded like he fired off 2x 30 round mags about as fast as he could, then took off.


Impossible Chicago has mag laws


----------



## The Bread Guy

Since Uvalde info's in a range of threads, thought I'd plant this one here ...








						Report finds 'systemic failures,' poor leadership in response to Uvalde shooting
					

The 77-page report said 376 law enforcement officers rushed to the school in a chaotic scene marked by a lack of clear leadership and sufficient urgency. The gunman killed 19 children and two teachers.




					www.reuters.com
				











						Texas House report blames local, state and federal officers for 'systemic failure' in Uvalde
					

After weeks of changes in the official narrative about the response, the committee report was the clearest, most-detailed picture yet of what happened that day, during which local, state, and federal law enforcement waited for more than an hour to confront the gunman.




					www.tpr.org
				











						'Egregious poor decision-making': Probers rip all sides over Uvalde school massacre
					

Nearly 400 law-enforcement officers responded to the scene of the Uvalde school massacre, but their “overall lackadaisical approach” meant the gunman wasn’t confronted for more th…




					nypost.com
				











						A year before Uvalde shooting, gunman had threatened women, carried around a dead cat and been nicknamed “school shooter”
					

Identified as at-risk, he never received special education services and ultimately flunked out, according to a Texas House committee report.




					www.texastribune.org
				



Latest full report (81 pg PDF) here


----------



## lenaitch

^  Wow.  Almost 400 coppers on scene and nobody stepped up to the plate.  As is common in the US, the number of agencies involved likely didn't help.


----------



## Booter

I’ve suggested before- I imagine the failure at the front is a particular agency- the agencies arriving behind would be stepping into what they think are support roles.

If I was arriving twenty minutes into a school shooting with a crew- I would be looking for someone in charge and in absence would be setting up containment rings- assuming the 100 before me were doing the trigger work.

This is the same way you respond to any high level threat- if you observe a gap you step into a role to take pressure off the coordinator- it’s a proactive thing. I observe a missing cold Zone- I drop dudes into it and notify command.

You can’t have all your assets push to contact that would be nonsense.

So if layer 1 fails. Layer 2-5 won’t necessarily notice. Now…45 minutes in I might have an eyebrow up that I’m not seeing a professionalized coordinated response…

However, if I was guy 8 and I was in the school and a guy in a polo shirt was telling me to stay back and there was no threat probing- I’d ask for his magazines and send him to get lunches


----------



## KevinB

Booter said:


> I’ve suggested before- I imagine the failure at the front is a particular agency- the agencies arriving behind would be stepping into what they think are support roles.


Yes - but theoretically it shouldn’t matter as confront the threat doesn’t change and multiple agencies shouldn’t change that - stack up and go…


Booter said:


> If I was arriving twenty minutes into a school shooting with a crew- I would be looking for someone in charge and in absence would be setting up containment rings- assuming the 100 before me were doing the trigger work.


I suspect that is what occurred - except the School Police Chief was a fuckstick of the highest order 


Booter said:


> This is the same way you respond to any high level threat- if you observe a gap you step into a role to take pressure off the coordinator- it’s a proactive thing. I observe a missing cold Zone- I drop dudes into it and notify command.
> 
> You can’t have all your assets push to contact that would be nonsense.
> 
> So if layer 1 fails. Layer 2-5 won’t necessarily notice. Now…45 minutes in I might have an eyebrow up that I’m not seeing a professionalized coordinated response…
> 
> However, if I was guy 8 and I was in the school and a guy in a polo shirt was telling me to stay back and there was no threat probing- I’d ask for his magazines and send him to get lunches


5 minutes in I’d be wondering WTF and start to move to the front.  

Watching the video one has to wonder what the FUCK was going on - it’s a criminal level of neglect.  One guy on his phone, one using hand sanitizer, falling back once contact was made.  
   I hope they burn the fuck out of a number of them.


----------



## Remius

KevinB said:


> Yes - but theoretically it shouldn’t matter as confront the threat doesn’t change and multiple agencies shouldn’t change that - stack up and go…
> 
> I suspect that is what occurred - except the School Police Chief was a fuckstick of the highest order
> 
> 5 minutes in I’d be wondering WTF and start to move to the front.
> 
> Watching the video one has to wonder what the FUCK was going on - it’s a criminal level of neglect.  One guy on his phone, one using hand sanitizer, falling back once contact was made.
> I hope they burn the fuck out of a number of them.


The hand sanitizer will be THE defining image of this debacle


----------



## KevinB

Remius said:


> The hand sanitizer will be THE defining image of this debacle


Oh I doubt there is just one.  
   The whole taking fire and running away thing kind of stick in my throat.


----------



## brihard

KevinB said:


> Yes - but theoretically it shouldn’t matter as confront the threat doesn’t change and multiple agencies shouldn’t change that - stack up and go…
> 
> I suspect that is what occurred - except the School Police Chief was a fuckstick of the highest order
> 
> 5 minutes in I’d be wondering WTF and start to move to the front.
> 
> Watching the video one has to wonder what the FUCK was going on - it’s a criminal level of neglect.  One guy on his phone, one using hand sanitizer, falling back once contact was made.
> I hope they burn the fuck out of a number of them.


In fairness, guy on the phone was checking for a message from his wife. She was a teacher in the school who had previously contacted him to say she had been shot. He ended up disarmed and removed from the scene.

But yeah- those at or near the front were fucking useless, and should all turn in their badges. Kids dying? You go in, full stop. No shots for a few minutes just means some are still bleeding out.

Anyone more than a tactical bound behind the front element I can understand not moving. They would have been in an information vacuum, trusting those farther ahead to have a correct read on the situation. Nobody would assume a foul up this monumental.

What I want to know is who was the initial critical incident commander? Someone in the first two minutes should have been loud on the air declaring him or orderly the MFIC, and making decisions that make sense. With people dying, that would include saying “form a stack and stop the threat, and good luck, the whole world will be only two steps behind you”.

Either someone DID step up, and failed, or no one stepped up, and so the whole department failed. I mean, obviously the whole department failed anyway, but that would be the first and most critical fail point.


----------



## KevinB

brihard said:


> In fairness, guy on the phone was checking for a message from his wife. She was a teacher in the school who had previously contacted him to say she had been shot. He ended up disarmed and removed from the scene.
> 
> But yeah- those at or near the front were fucking useless, and should all turn in their badges. Kids dying? You go in, full stop. No shots for a few minutes just means some are still bleeding out.
> 
> Anyone more than a tactical bound behind the front element I can understand not moving. They would have been in an information vacuum, trusting those farther ahead to have a correct read on the situation. Nobody would assume a foul up this monumental.
> 
> What I want to know is who was the initial critical incident commander? Someone in the first two minutes should have been loud on the air declaring him or orderly the MFIC, and making decisions that make sense. With people dying, that would include saying “form a stack and stop the threat, and good luck, the whole world will be only two steps behind you”.
> 
> Either someone DID step up, and failed, or no one stepped up, and so the whole department failed. I mean, obviously the whole department failed anyway, but that would be the first and most critical fail point.


The Chief of the School LE was one of the retreat under fire assclowns…
  They had two dudes with rifles and they retreated…


----------



## brihard

KevinB said:


> The Chief of the School LE was one of the retreat under fire assclowns…
> They had two dudes with rifles and they retreated…


McDonalds is hiring.


----------



## dapaterson

Nah, McDonald's demands timely customer service.


----------



## Booter

If you’re not uvalde police, and they are ahead of you- there has to be a period where the other agencies have to observe and understand the failure to act before they can adjust.

Like if I went into the school and saw cops hanging out having a hand sanitizer fight- my first thought would be that the pressure was being applied to the shooter from a different place- that I am at the backstop.

It wouldn’t make any sense to stumble onto this mess. I’ll say there were cowards probably twenty deep- creating something the other cops didn’t even understand when they were looking at it.

I was coordinating an armed robbery response at a bank many years ago where I was I’m going to say three steps away from being in charge- not the agency handling the event. I arrived on their scene, observed gaps- filled them, started my process and it took a long while to get myself actually linked in with the guy “running” things. It wasn’t until we go set up that I realized that they had let cars squirt and had lost the plot. A quick re-org and we took the vehicle down off the incident,

It’s not the same thing- but it reminds me that even my podunk multi agency Ops were complete fire sales, 400 cops, two hallways, chaos? Get out of here. If someone doesn’t have the leash it’s a going to be lunacy. It’s very confusing when you realize that your multiple stages in and no one is on the wheel.

It just makes me conservative maybe 🤷‍♀️

But you guys know
All that’s stuff too: and I agree with you. It’s crazy the size of the failure this is


----------



## Booter

the preferred “lunacy” of course is trying to get control of 400 slobbering pipehitters all trying to aggress. Rather than identifying youre a hundred cowards deep and trying to spur action.

Which I think is what you guys are saying.


----------



## brihard

I think we’re mostly saying the same thing. The troops in contact, and the ones one tactical bound behind were relevant. They and they alone could appreciate the situation and act unilaterally. The other 380 were largely irrelevant and were there because you’re a chump if you _don’t_ roll to that call. Never mind all the other crimes that I’m sure were happening at the same time elsewhere. There was a manifest failure on a multiagency front to get a grip on and prioritize resources- but that’s inevitable.

I think part of the issue is this balkanization of police agencies that America is fond of. A school board should not have a police force. You know who works at a school board police force? The muppets who can’t or won’t work elsewhere, but who want to wear MOLLE, look cool, go to conferences and gun shows, and brag on Facebook about fighting the evil you pretend doesn’t exist, but without doing actual cop stuff when it’s time to do cop stuff.

Uvalde is a case study in the manifold failures of America’s policing model. Unfortunately, like all too many exposés of American policy failures, it comes with a bunch of dead kids.


----------



## Booter

Totally agree on all that. I think you succinctly nailed it

F**k I appreciate that post.


----------



## lenaitch

brihard said:


> What I want to know is who was the initial critical incident commander? Someone in the first two minutes should have been loud on the air declaring him or orderly the MFIC, and making decisions that make sense. With people dying, that would include saying “form a stack and stop the threat, and good luck, the whole world will be only two steps behind you”.
> 
> Either someone DID step up, and failed, or no one stepped up, and so the whole department failed. I mean, obviously the whole department failed anyway, but that would be the first and most critical fail point.


What we don't know (or, at least I don't know) is if their protocols are similar to ours where one of the first things done is designate an IC or do they just make it up as they go along or based on who's turf it is.  Turf and jurisdiction matters and that's why too many can complicate the issue.  Did the school PD chief have the jurisdictional lead (the guy in charge of what, 6 members)?  If so, did he have the training?  Layer on that the municipal PD, maybe County, Texas DPS, DHS and whatever other alphabet.  Often, multiple comms can interfere as well.

Trying to figure that out in the middle of an incident is exactly the wrong time.


----------



## Kirkhill

This one hits a little close to home.  Our family used to live in Greenwood and regularly shopped in that mall.



> GREENWOOD, Ind.
> 
> 
> The shooter was identified as 20-year-old Jonathan Douglas Sapirman of Greenwood. ... two rifles, a handgun and several magazines of ammunition, but he only used one of the rifles.
> 
> Police said Sapirman entered the mall at 4:54 p.m. on July 17. He immediately entered the bathroom at the food court and stayed there for an hour and two minutes.
> 
> As Sapirman left the bathroom, (at 5:56) he began shooting, causing chaos at the mall.
> 
> Police said Sapirman fired 24 rounds during the shooting.... it appears shots were only fired in the food court area.
> Sapirman first shot and killed Gomez. Then he fired into the food court hitting and killing the Pinedas. He fired more shots into the food court area and wounded a 22-year-old woman in the leg and a bullet fragment hit a 12-year-old girl in the back.
> 
> 
> At 5:57 p.m., Elisjsha Dicken, an armed bystander, fired on Sapirman. Dicken fired 10 rounds hitting Sapirman as Sapirman tried to retreat into the bathroom but collapsed and died.
> 
> 
> Dicken had no police training or military background, according to police. He was carrying under the new "Constitutional Carry" law and did not have a permit. Police said Dicken learned to shoot from his grandfather and that he had no military or police training.
> 
> 
> 
> "His actions were nothing short of heroic. He engaged the gunman from quite a distance with a handgun. Was very proficient in that, was tactically sound and as he moved to close in on the suspect, he was also motioning for people to exit behind him," Ison said about Dicken's actions. "Many people would have died last night if not for a responsible armed citizen that took action very quickly within the first two minutes of this shooting."











						Police: Armed bystander shot and killed Greenwood Park Mall shooter in just 15 seconds
					

Those killed are 56-year-old Pedro Pineda, his wife 37-year-old Rosa Mirian Rivera de Pineda and 30-year-old Victor Gomez.




					www.wthr.com
				




The rifleman had 120 ready rounds and got off 24 before being killed by the armed civilian.  The civilian engaged the target within a minute of firing commencing and neutralized the target with in another minute discharging 10 rounds from his personal Glock.

I remember my boss in Greenwood used to wear an ankle holster with a snub nose 38 - he was a volunteer fire chief in one of the other outlying towns.   A neighbour carried a revolver on his belt even when doing chores around the yard.   And then there was buddy that invited me down to the National Guard range with an assortment of pistols and then proceeded to ask me if I could show him how to shoot.


----------



## Skysix

mariomike said:


> They ran up the stairs on 9/11. 343 City of New York firefighters and paramedics were killed in the Line of Duty that day.
> 
> As far as Active Shooter is concerned,
> 
> City sends unarmed firefighters and paramedics into ‘active shooter’ situations
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> City program sends unarmed firefighters and EMTs into ‘active shooter’ situations
> 
> 
> The city has launched a controversial program to use firefighters and EMTs to help rescue critically injured victims in “active shooter” incidents, The Post has learned. New York’s Bravest and FDNY…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nypost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Active Shooter / Hostile Event ( ASHE ) Guide. July, 2016.
> 
> 
> http://www.interagencyboard.org/sites/default/files/publications/IAB%20Active%20Shooter%20%26%20Hostile%20Event%20Guide.pdf
> 
> 
> The optimal Rescue Task Force, with police protection, to active shooter incidents is one Paramedic Supervisor, 2 Paramedics and 4 Firefighters.
> 
> Although Toronto has had ETF aka SWAT Paramedics since 1996, any non-tactical Paramedic can be assigned to a Rescue Task Force at any time,
> "Where Tactical Paramedics are not available, non-tactical Paramedics may be assigned to ETF ( aka SWAT ) police incidents."
> 
> Eaton Centre:
> "On June 2, 2012, the Toronto Eaton Centre food court suddenly turned deadly when shots rang out and panicked diners went running for cover. Within a few minutes of the first 911 call, two superintendents and four paramedics were at the scene. These first responders immediately approached the basement-level food court, despite the risk to themselves. As they tended to the wounded - some of whom had life-threatening injuries - the paramedics had to duck for cover to avoid being caught in the continued gunfire."
> 
> Scarborough:
> "On July 16, 2012, repeated gunfire erupted at a community celebration in east-end Toronto, resulting in multiple casualties. The four paramedics and two superintendents who arrived on the scene met a surge of panicked people running down the street. While police searched for the shooters - still at large - the paramedics set up triage and treatment areas, putting their personal safety at risk. When they later learned that a shooter was hiding in their midst, the paramedics discreetly alerted the police, who were able to make an arrest without further injury."
> 
> That was the worst mass shooting in the history of Toronto.
> 
> This was the SOP we operated under,
> 
> "Toronto Paramedics are reminded of their responsibility under the Occupational Health and Safety Act, Section 43, (1) and (2).2 These sections exclude paramedics from the right to refuse work where the circumstances are inherent in their work and/or if the work refusal would directly endanger the health and safety of another person."


Unfortunately in the US there is SCOTUS precedent that the police have, believe it or not, NO DUTY OF CARE TO RESPOND!!!

Say for example a restraining order has been filed against an ex for being a known danger to his ex-spouse and kids. The only requirement the police department has is to protect the government (tangentially this would be the community, but not the individual). The spouse has the right to ask the police to enforce the restraining order. But the police have discretion to enforce it - or not.






						No Special Duty
					

A look at what happens when the police don’t do the one thing you expect them to.




					radiolab.org
				












						Transcript of No Special Duty from ... | Happy Scribe
					

Transcript and discussion of No Special Duty from Radiolab podcast ...




					www.happyscribe.com


----------



## Skysix

Piece of Cake said:


> Sections 16 and 17 of Mental Health Act Ontario, gives grounds to have a person examined for mental health issues.
> 
> Not sure if any states have similar laws.
> 
> Source: Law Document English View


All of them I believe. Often called section 5150.


----------



## KevinB

Skysix said:


> Unfortunately in the US there is SCOTUS precedent that the police have, believe it or not, NO DUTY OF CARE TO RESPOND!!!
> 
> Say for example a restraining order has been filed against an ex for being a known danger to his ex-spouse and kids. The only requirement the police department has is to protect the government (tangentially this would be the community, but not the individual). The spouse has the right to ask the police to enforce the restraining order. But the police have discretion to enforce it - or not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No Special Duty
> 
> 
> A look at what happens when the police don’t do the one thing you expect them to.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> radiolab.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Transcript of No Special Duty from ... | Happy Scribe
> 
> 
> Transcript and discussion of No Special Duty from Radiolab podcast ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.happyscribe.com


Each Department and State has their own Duty of Care standards, the same as each state has minimum standard for LE.   
  The USSC ruling was a blanket - when I was on a Department we had a requirement to act if there was a violent felony, and I know several departments that have similar policies.  

I agree wholeheartedly with @brihard that a School Board probably shouldn’t have their own LEA, but I know of a College LE Dept in VA that is probably one of the most switched on LE Dept in the country, simply due to a few hiring choices led to a bunch of retired folks joining it from parts of SOCOM (and their kids got a great deal on college tuition). 

Several year ago I related a NCR (ours) LE Ex run in Quantico to simulate both AS and a Mumbai style attack - it was after the Navy Yard shooting and lessons learned from it.  
Each state has a hierarchy of LE, most States have their State Police at the top, but some have Country Sheriff Departments, IR Chain and handovers follow that criteria.  For larger situations it makes sense as you generally find more resources at higher levels. The Fed assets get awkward depending on what is occurring to chain of command and the IC.  

AS response should be fairly simple.  Find the threat and neutralize it.  If you can’t neutralize it, you should have teams extracting civilians from the surrounding areas. 
   In the case of Uvalde it should have been easy - multiple agency issues shouldn’t have been an issue as the issue itself was very simple - the fail lies with the Uvalde School Police and the officers first on scene who didn’t act correctly.  Their inaction and failure to push thru initial contact to neutralize the shooter created all the follow on issues that never should have existed.  
  If they where really unable (instead of unwilling) to confront the shooter, they should have had small units assigned to extract students etc from the school - again a major failure- but those fails are simply like additional train cars coming off the track because the lead jumped the track and pulled them along.


----------



## Booter

The organizational equivalent of stopping in the doorway without the benefit of a limited penetration entry…


----------



## Jarnhamar

Interesting story here.

A mom alleges she's being harassed by Uvalde police after doing some of her own Urban Ops.



> Gomez said she rushed to the school when she heard an active shooter was on the property. She could hear gunshots and children screaming as she came face-to-face with officers standing outside the school doors. The officers told her she could not enter the school and momentarily put her in handcuffs as she tried to enter the school.
> 
> After convincing them that she would calm down they released her from the cuffs, she said.
> 
> That’s when she saw an opportunity. She told the news outlet she jumped a nearby fence and began banging on a door window, motioning to her eldest son’s teacher, who she could see inside the school.
> 
> Gomez told her, “You already have a gateway out, so you might as well just come out. Like if I’m going to run out with him, y’all just come on too.”
> 
> Once inside the building she was able to collect her oldest son and some of his classmates, ushering them out of the school. She then went back to the door of her youngest son’s classroom.







> Since the harrowing incident, her lawyer says Gomez has been the target of harassment and hostility by some of the officers on the Uvalde force. “As far as we know there’s two definite instances,” Mark Di Carlo told HuffPost, saying his client was recently pulled over at a traffic stop and falsely accused of having illegal immigrants in her car. Di Carlo says police also parked outside her home for 45 minutes and flashed their car lights at her and her mother when they went for a walk.


----------



## Good2Golf

If accurate, that’s some seriously cowardly bullshit right there on the part of the UPD.


----------



## OldSolduer

OK remember "US Marshalls" with Tommy Lee Jones? the take charge senior agent who had all the answers?

Life ain't like that. What you guys have said above is so true. Time is required to take stock of the situation, formulate a plan and act.


----------



## brihard

OldSolduer said:


> OK remember "US Marshalls" with Tommy Lee Jones? the take charge senior agent who had all the answers?
> 
> Life ain't like that. What you guys have said above is so true. Time is required to take stock of the situation, formulate a plan and act.


"Better a good plan immediately and violently executed, than a perfect plan too late".


----------



## Brad Sallows

Time isn't an available resource, the key being "active".  I suppose scenarios can be contrived in which immediate action results in worse outcomes, but it seems to me that generally the IA has to be to suppress/distract, if not neutralize, shooters.


----------



## Booter

Brad Sallows said:


> Time isn't an available resource, the key being "active".  I suppose scenarios can be contrived in which immediate action results in worse outcomes, but it seems to me that generally the IA has to be to suppress/distract, if not neutralize, shooters.


It is this way- pressure is exerted on the active shooter- but for pressure to work there has to be thing to squeeze them against.

So the contact people, the first let’s say 12 on scene, go against the shooter in anyway they can as fast as they can.

The next people as the arrive create the rings that keep the shooter in and engaged. He can shoot out with the first guys- or he can shoot out with the ring around them.

But in order for it to work- the first guys need to move forward and change the incident from the shooters having initiative to the shooters fighting for their Lives against guys with guns. Those are two very different mindsets for the shooter, I want them away from Being the predator into knowing that they are prey. Even if they are armed,

Anything less than being the baddest muthafuggah in the valley is unacceptable from the first responders.

I would hazard to say that the end level
User level training for an AS received by these officers would have been- move to the shooter engage. Everything else is taught elsewhere- so a failure to do so is a failure to follow any training they received. It’s been a long time since a guy on patrol learned anything else.


----------



## Skysix

mariomike said:


> Are Canada's paramedics and hospitals prepared for a Chemical Weapons Attack ...not really.
> 
> QUOTE
> 
> Apr 16, 2018
> 
> MacLean's
> 
> The antidote atropine dries up the excessive salivation and reduces secretions that clog up the airways, countering the effects of excess acetylcholine. Atropine is most commonly used in heart rhythm disturbances where up to one milligram of Atropine is used, but patients with organophosphate poisoning may require up to 100 milligrams.  That far exceeds the three milligram stock of an ambulance, and may even deplete an entire hospital of its supply.
> 
> Another drug used for severe cases is pralidoxime, which relieves the muscular effects of the nerve toxin. For weaponized pesticides, pralidoxime needs to be administered within minutes, before the poison binds irreversibly to its target; but pralidoxime is a hard drug to find outside of large hospitals. In some cities, specialized ambulances carry a few doses, but most do not, and even large downtown hospitals only have a handful of doses stocked.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is Canada prepared for a chemical weapon attack like the one in the U.K.? - Macleans.ca
> 
> 
> If a nerve agent like Novichok was used here, there are antitodes on hand to save a few of victims. A larger attack would test Canada's readiness.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.macleans.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> END QUOTE
> 
> Toronto has CBRNE paramedics. Not sure about the rest of the country.


This EMS shortage could be reduced if all "expired" atropine was kept for another 10 years in a CBRN response box. (US Army studies showed 90% efficacy if properly stored)

Additionally in most rural areas in the west 30mg/30ml vials of atropine are stocked on ambulances due to the high risk of organophosphate exposures in agriculture.


----------



## brihard

Brad Sallows said:


> Time isn't an available resource, the key being "active".  I suppose scenarios can be contrived in which immediate action results in worse outcomes, but it seems to me that generally the IA has to be to suppress/distract, if not neutralize, shooters.



The goal is to change the behaviour in a way that allows for preserving life. Maybe you change his behvariour by killing him. Maybe you change his behaviour by wounding him and he cannot or chooses not to continue. Maybe you achieve a 'psychological stop' and they either surrender or suicide rather than risk the fight. All have happened. Point being, you must force the situation as swiftly and aggressively as possible. You let the bad guy know police are here now and he WILL be stopped. Maybe he fights it out with you, which sucks- but with a C8 and hard plates I have better odds than a fifth grader. And if I go down, there are more behind me.

Pretty universally the drill is that if shooting is happening, you move to the threat with max belligerence and stop it the hard way. Where drills between departments vary is what happens if shooting stops. At that point it becomes a matter of the perceived risks. If shooting has stopped and the bad guy has since changed locations and barricaded, that's one fact set. You may assess that the threat is now contained in a space where immediate action is not needed to preserve lives, and you can contain and wait for a tactical unit better equipped to work that problem. If, however, the threat has barricaded in a room with multiple people already shot, you probably have people still bleeding out and actively dying. That's a different problem that still requires an IA to preserve life. That's an angle that I've seen as a weakness in training for this stuff. Transition to 'armed and barricaded' drills will still cost lives if there are already grievously wounded victims.


----------



## Skysix

mariomike said:


> When sent into the apocalypse, accept no substitutes,
> 
> An ambulance that has run flat tire inserts, ballistic glass & a full envelope of Level IIIA ballistic Kevlar throughout.


Or, just get a standard armoured delivery truck with EMS lighting and paint. Probably will be proof against more than .45ACP as well.

Not sure the point of the whole "blackout" paint package. If it is to reduce targeting of the ambulance by shooters, then get rid of the EMS lighting and make it look like the rest of the SWAT team vehicles - which obviously are not a target either...


----------



## KevinB

brihard said:


> "Better a good plan immediately and violently executed, than a perfect plan too late".


Or no plan…


----------



## Colin Parkinson

There is a solution, just not politically acceptable to the current governments in Ottawa and Washington


----------



## The Bread Guy

Colin Parkinson said:


> There is a solution, just not politically acceptable to the current governments in Ottawa and Washington


Getting the dark old "no video here" screen


----------



## KevinB

The Bread Guy said:


> Getting the dark old "no video here" screen


Need to watch on YouTube directly.  

It’s the girlfriend of the legally armed civilian who shot and killed the AS in Indiana, saying he pushed her down her to safety before engaging the threat.


----------



## dapaterson

If guns made you safer, the USA would be the safest nation in the world.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

dapaterson said:


> If guns made you safer, the USA would be the safest nation in the world.


CCW permits holders have a very low rate of charges against them and most are for dumb things like walking into a post office armed. The US Homicide rate puts it at the 59th spot out of all the countries, with 52% of homicides being in 2% of the counties. The homicide rate was dropping until Ferguson happened.


----------



## FJAG

dapaterson said:


> If guns made you safer, the USA would be the safest nation in the world.


Likewise Afghanistan and a whole host of African and South and Central American nations.

🍻


----------



## dapaterson

Colin Parkinson said:


> CCW permits holders have a very low rate of charges against them and most are for dumb things like walking into a post office armed. The US Homicide rate puts it at the 59th spot out of all the countries, with 52% of homicides being in 2% of the counties. The homicide rate was dropping until Ferguson happened.


Domestic violence and suicide enter the conversation.


----------



## KevinB

dapaterson said:


> Domestic violence and suicide enter the conversation.


Concealed Permit holders are below the line for those as well.

I carry a gun pretty much everywhere. 
   I had to stop bringing it some places when I turned in my badge - but by and large I will have one accessible even if not directly on my anywhere I got expect when I come up to Canada.  

People are the issue - guns, like liquor and vehicles are simply inanimate objects and need human usage to function - correctly or incorrectly.


----------



## OldSolduer

dapaterson said:


> Domestic violence and suicide enter the conversation.


Absolutely this is an issue when firearms are involved. 

Question: What kind of training and background checks would it take to get a CCW permit in the USA? I reckon it varies state by state.


----------



## KevinB

OldSolduer said:


> Absolutely this is an issue when firearms are involved.
> 
> Question: What kind of training and background checks would it take to get a CCW permit in the USA? I reckon it varies state by state.


Most states allow LE/Mil training to count for any state requirement for training.  
   Some states also have a live fire standard to obtain. 

Background is just a general criminal record check.  

The largest disparity comes from each Individual States policy - some only issue for cause (and that can vary significantly between what is considered cause) while others have ‘shall issue’ policies where unless one has a hit on the criminal background or a restraining order logged you get it (usually a timeline of 7-28 days unless it’s a renewal).  While other states don’t require any permit for concealed carry as long as one can legally own a gun (New Hampshire is one of those).  

Then some states don’t honor other states permits - so you need to fulfill that states non resident permit requirement and apply for one of those if you want to carry there.


----------



## dapaterson

You are six times more likely to die by firearm (all causes) in the USA vs Canada.



			Gun Deaths by Country 2022


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Somewhat dated, but still interesting








						More Guns, Less Crime: Concealed-carry Permit Holders More Law-abiding Than Police - The New American
					

Despite fears by proponents of gun control that more guns means more crime, citizens with concealed-carry permits actually commit crimes at a lower rate than police. by Bob Adelmann




					thenewamerican.com


----------



## KevinB

dapaterson said:


> You are six times more likely to die by firearm (all causes) in the USA vs Canada.
> 
> 
> 
> Gun Deaths by Country 2022


We have significantly more firearm violence in cities and states with more firearm restrictions.


----------



## dapaterson

Nope.

Top ten states per capita (2017 figures):


Alaska (24.5 per 100k people)
Alabama (22.9 per 100k people)
Montana (22.5 per 100k people)
Louisiana (21.7 per 100k people)
Mississippi (21.5 per 100k people)
Missouri (21.5 per 100k people)
Arkansas (20.3 per 100k people)
Wyoming (18.8 per 100k people)
West Virginia (18.6 per 100k people)
New Mexico (18.5 per 100k people)



			Crime 2022


----------



## KevinB

dapaterson said:


> Nope.
> 
> Top ten states per capita (2017 figures):
> 
> 
> Alaska (24.5 per 100k people)
> Alabama (22.9 per 100k people)
> Montana (22.5 per 100k people)
> Louisiana (21.7 per 100k people)
> Mississippi (21.5 per 100k people)
> Missouri (21.5 per 100k people)
> Arkansas (20.3 per 100k people)
> Wyoming (18.8 per 100k people)
> West Virginia (18.6 per 100k people)
> New Mexico (18.5 per 100k people)
> 
> 
> 
> Crime 2022


Look at them by county…


----------



## Skysix

dapaterson said:


> You are six times more likely to die by firearm (all causes) in the USA vs Canada.
> 
> 
> 
> Gun Deaths by Country 2022


You are far more likely to die by moose in Canada than the USA. Maybe we need a "no concealed moose" ammendment to
 the highway traffic act ...

The problem is more a people/moose one than a regulatory one. People inclined to get firearms will, one way or another. Moose who want to cross the road will, no matter how clear or not the ditches are of brush.

Correlation does not equal cauation.


----------



## brihard

Mods, split off to an appropriate gun control thread please?


----------



## Kirkhill

Just to add a bit more "seasoning" to the Uvalde discussion



> One of the factors “contributing to relaxed vigilance [at Robb Elementary] was the frequency of security alerts and campus lockdowns resulting from a recent rise of ‘bailouts,’” the report said.
> 
> “The frequency of these ‘bailout’-related alarms — around 50 of them between February and May of 2022 — contributed to a diminished sense of vigilance about responding to security alerts,” the probe’s findings said.



Bailouts occur when vehicles are pulled over and people exit the vehicle and leg it.  All the schools in the area are locked down and emergency response teams are dispatched to each of them.

It still doesn't explain the hesitation, especially after 400 bodies were on scene.









						Illegal immigration blamed in Uvalde, Texas school shooting: report
					

The US border crisis helped create lax security at the Uvalde school where 19 fourth-graders and two teachers were slaughtered, a Texas report shows.




					nypost.com


----------



## Kirkhill

dapaterson said:


> If guns made you safer, the USA would be the safest nation in the world.



Geez!  So many Canadians on this site.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

dapaterson said:


> Nope.
> 
> Top ten states per capita (2017 figures):
> 
> 
> Alaska (24.5 per 100k people)
> Alabama (22.9 per 100k people)
> Montana (22.5 per 100k people)
> Louisiana (21.7 per 100k people)
> Mississippi (21.5 per 100k people)
> Missouri (21.5 per 100k people)
> Arkansas (20.3 per 100k people)
> Wyoming (18.8 per 100k people)
> West Virginia (18.6 per 100k people)
> New Mexico (18.5 per 100k people)
> 
> 
> 
> Crime 2022


That data includes suicides by gun and the US suicide rate in not that out of whack and certainly far lower than Japan or Korea, both that have strict gun control. The real issues facing people and governments in the US are hard to fix social issues, so it's a lot easier to blame guns and the NRA, then to wade into sticky social issues where you sure to be called racist.


----------



## Booter

Kirkhill said:


> Just to add a bit more "seasoning" to the Uvalde discussion
> 
> 
> 
> Bailouts occur when vehicles are pulled over and people exit the vehicle and leg it.  All the schools in the area are locked down and emergency response teams are dispatched to each of them.
> 
> It still doesn't explain the hesitation, especially after 400 bodies were on scene.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Illegal immigration blamed in Uvalde, Texas school shooting: report
> 
> 
> The US border crisis helped create lax security at the Uvalde school where 19 fourth-graders and two teachers were slaughtered, a Texas report shows.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nypost.com


Maybe until the first “pop”


----------



## mariomike

Colin Parkinson said:


> < snip >, then to wade into sticky social issues where you sure to be called racist.



Sociological problems, education, DNA? Who knows?  🤷‍♂️

I read that in Los Angeles in the 1960's, their 3,400 police officers arrested 100,000 more criminals than their 10,000 officers were by 1996.
"A distressed Mayor Richard Riordan said it was vexing to learn that LAPD is now making 100,000 fewer arrests, issuing over 200,000 fewer citations, and conducting over 200,000 fewer field interviews per year."

I realize those statistics are dated, but I wonder if that is a trend?


----------



## Brad Sallows

> If guns made you safer, the USA would be the safest nation in the world.



"Guns make you safer" is not a sufficient condition, and probably not a necessary one.  A lot factors are involved (pro and con) in getting to "safest nation in the world".  The conclusion doesn't necessarily follow the premise.


----------



## KevinB

mariomike said:


> Sociological problems, education, DNA? Who knows?  🤷‍♂️
> 
> I read that in Los Angeles in the 1960's, their 3,400 police officers arrested 100,000 more criminals than their 10,000 officers were by 1996.
> "A distressed Mayor Richard Riordan said it was vexing to learn that LAPD is now making 100,000 fewer arrests, issuing over 200,000 fewer citations, and conducting over 200,000 fewer field interviews per year."
> 
> I realize those statistics are dated, but I wonder if that is a trend?


FIDO: Fuck It, Drive On. 

I did 48hrs in LA several years ago with LAPD Metro, more gunfights / hr than any other place I’ve been to in the world.  

Overcrowded jails, and a society that values immediate wealth over life/law.  A lot of criminal v criminal shooting deaths are not even reported.  


That said, I love America and being an American, and cherish it a lot more that I cherished being a Canadian.


----------



## KevinB

Brad Sallows said:


> "Guns make you safer" is not a sufficient condition, and probably not a necessary one.  A lot factors are involved (pro and con) in getting to "safest nation in the world".  The conclusion doesn't necessarily follow the premise.


Plus who defines Safe…


----------



## mariomike

KevinB said:


> FIDO: Fuck It, Drive On.
> 
> I did 48hrs in LA several years ago with LAPD Metro, more gunfights / hr than any other place I’ve been to in the world.
> 
> Overcrowded jails, and a society that values immediate wealth over life/law.  A lot of criminal v criminal shooting deaths are not even reported.



The writer, a retired LAPD Lt. was reminicing about the "Golden Age" of the LAPD. Presumably, pre Rodny King.



> Starting in 1973, affirmative action & consent decrees changed LAPD culture from aggressively pursuing criminals to laying back in police cars, taking careful and lengthy reports, while gangs ran wild in the streets and portions of L.A. were terrorized by thugs.





> When I was in the field in the 1960s, our 3,400 policemen (our Civil Service rank) arrested 100,000 more criminals than do today's  10,000 affirmative action wonders.  (Attorney GARY INGEMUNSON in "Warning Bells," Thin Blue Line, July 2005, p. 13—Also L.A. Times of 13 March 1996, pp. B-1 & 3):  A “distressed Mayor Richard Riordan…said it was vexing to learn that LAPD is now making 100,000 fewer arrests, issuing over 200,000 fewer citations, and conducting over 20,000 fewer field interviews per year.”





> Give no slack and take no shit from anyone. Confront and command. Control the streets at all times. Always be aggressive. Stop crimes before they happen. Seek them out. Shake them down. Make that arrest.





> That said, I love America and being an American, and cherish it a lot more that I cherished being a Canadian.



My wife is a U.S. citizen. Arizona is my favorite state.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Damn.... sad to see that, but a good idea nonetheless IMHO

AR-15 rifles installed in all public schools in NC county​


A North Carolina sheriff installed AR-15 rifles in all county public schools in order to better prepare deputies in the event of a mass shooting. 

Madison County Sheriff Buddy Harwell first announced the new plan in a June Facebook video in the wake of the Uvalde, Texas, Robb Elementary school shooting, during which 19 children and two teachers were killed. Harwell said on Friday that a safe, AR-15 rifle, and other security tools had been installed in the county’s six public schools, the 

“We were able to put an AR-15 rifle and safe in all of our schools in the county,” Harwood said. “We’ve also got breaching tools to go into those safes. We’ve got extra magazines with ammo in those safes.”

“I hate that we’ve come to a place in our nation where I’ve got to put a safe in our schools, and lock that safe up for my deputies to be able to acquire an AR-15. But, we can shut it off and say it won’t happen in Madison County, but we never know,” Harwood said. “I want the parents of Madison County to know we’re going to take every measure necessary to ensure our kids are safe in this school system. If my parents, as a whole, want me to stand at that door with that AR strapped around that officer’s neck, then I’m going to do whatever my parents want as a whole to keep our kids safe.”









						AR-15 rifles installed in all public schools in NC county
					

A North Carolina sheriff said he will put AR-15 rifles in all county public schools in order to better prepare deputies for shootings.




					americanmilitarynews.com


----------



## lenaitch

So, it sounds like a resource for 'school safety officer' assigned to the school, rather than arming school staff.  Seems to make sense.


----------



## dapaterson

Apparently, what 100 Uvalde cops were too scared to do, an unarmed drag queen and an unarmed, retired Army officer were able to do: take down and stop an active shooter.









						Army Veteran Went Into ‘Combat Mode’ to Disarm the Club Q Gunman
					

Richard M. Fierro, who served for 15 years in the military, was at the nightclub in Colorado Springs with his family when the gunman opened fire. “I just knew I had to take him down,” he said.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## brihard

dapaterson said:


> Apparently, what 100 Uvalde cops were too scared to do, an unarmed drag queen and an unarmed, retired Army officer were able to do: take down and stop an active shooter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Army Veteran Went Into ‘Combat Mode’ to Disarm the Club Q Gunman
> 
> 
> Richard M. Fierro, who served for 15 years in the military, was at the nightclub in Colorado Springs with his family when the gunman opened fire. “I just knew I had to take him down,” he said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com


Yup. Phenomenal work by the individuals in the bar that stopped it. Some incredible heroism was displayed.

FWIW, in contrast with Uvalde, sounds like police here arrived and immediately entered, which is proper drills. I haven’t seen anything yet suggesting the response wasn’t proper.


----------



## CBH99

dapaterson said:


> Apparently, what 100 Uvalde cops were too scared to do, an unarmed drag queen and an unarmed, retired Army officer were able to do: take down and stop an active shooter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Army Veteran Went Into ‘Combat Mode’ to Disarm the Club Q Gunman
> 
> 
> Richard M. Fierro, who served for 15 years in the military, was at the nightclub in Colorado Springs with his family when the gunman opened fire. “I just knew I had to take him down,” he said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com


Wow.  When I finally got to the article after 20 prompts to sign up for the NYT, I had only planned on skimming it. 

I thought it would be a ‘gangster type goes into club with a gun, let’s off a few rounds & gets tackled’ kind of play. 

Nope!  I was wrong!  

A 300lbs dude with body armour & a secondary weapon…and _this_ guy (a total Badass & hero) who had just started to ease up when out in crowded venues

I did get a chuckle as the article describes him as pistol whipping him without actually calling it that, then he gets others to come stomp on him with high heels & lay boots into him 👍🏻


Saved a lot of people.  Represented his tribe well.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard

I am a Canadian, but lived in the US ( Oklahoma, Iowa, Michigan) a total just under 5 years I think

Oklahoma nice State but has issues that made me think twice about going too far from home 
Sign at door of convenience  store in the middle of no where " Legally Concealed Fire Arms Allowed" 
Store was open 24/7 
All I could think was if I was the store clerk at night and alone, if some person came in carrying and I saw it, last thing I would do is ask if it is a legal carry, I would just be hoping, he or she paid for the gas and what ever else and left without robbing me.



It is not the same world here in Canada, but our shaded sunglasses certainly colour our view, from tv and movies, news stories, every cop show or movie has a massive shoot out,  ( unless you watch Barney Miller, yes I am old) 
We get a small view of the USA and their gun issues. But for the record I never once heard of a school lock down in the towns I lived in the USA but where my kids went to school and day care in Arnprior Ontario, they have had one because of a mentally ill person at the local hospital,  for what ever reason required a police response.  But my kids practice lock down drills a few times a year.

We cannot compare our way of live here in Canada, to the life of a person living in the USA.  10x the population,  so every number in stats seem to be higher. Social unrest is nothing here compared to down there.  All factors in how life is there.


----------



## mariomike

This is the first one I remember as a boy.








> At the time, the attack was the deadliest mass shooting by a lone gunman in U.S. history, being surpassed 18 years later by the San Ysidro McDonald's massacre.


----------



## Haggis

mariomike said:


> This is the first one I remember as a boy.


I remember the Marines being portrayed in pop culture as being quite proud of his marksmanship.


----------



## mariomike

Haggis said:


> I remember the Marines being portrayed in pop culture as being quite proud of his marksmanship.


----------



## mariomike

Unreleased records obtained by ProPublica, The Texas Tribune and The Washington Post for the first time show that communication lapses and muddled lines of authority among medical responders further hampered treatment at the Uvalde massacre.









						Records reveal medical response further delayed care for Uvalde shooting victims
					

Officers placed a victim on the sidewalk by one of the school's exits and started treating her wounds. A medic told investigators he didn't see any ambulances, but video shows two parked about 100 feet away.




					abc13.com


----------

