# Pick the right trade at the begining!



## navy-nesop (26 Dec 2007)

Good day to all,

I wanted to take a few minutes to address a growing concern about new people coming in.  I was at the NESOP training facility since April this year.  I have just rejoined after 10 years of absence from the Military.

I have noticed that many people that are coming from BMQ, are applying for occupational transfer as soon as they get to the school.  We get these guys that are complaining about the Navy and our trade.  They say that they want to re-muster to other trades.  They also say the reason they are here is that at the recruiting center they told them that if they pick a red trade they would get in fast and then after they can ask for occupational transfer.

Let me get some things strait here.  If you don't want a certain trade, don't sign on the bottom line.  Occupational transfer takes a long time and on top of that, if you picked a red trade, they don't want you to quit because they need you.  Your life will be miserable for months if not years.

Some of us are happy with their choice, so if you complain and bitch about your trade, you will just upset the others.  The worst I think is those who failled their Army trades and are sent to us.  If you are a hard sea trade but want to be sent to Afghanistan, you made the wrong choice.

So make the right choice for your new trade.  If you are not sure about one trade, ask people on this forum.  They will tell you more than just the brochure you get at recruiting.

all stations, this is navy-nesop, over!


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## dimsum (26 Dec 2007)

Plus, not all trades allow people to VOT immediately *cough* Aircrew ones *cough*    Any recruiters available or willing to shed some light on the "pick a red trade and ask for VOT later" policy?


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## dapaterson (26 Dec 2007)

It's not a policy.  Officially, they are not supposed to make that statement.

Unfortunately, there are recruiters who want to make the target; there are also people coming in the door who hear "you can ask for a remuster" and interpret as "you're entitled to a remuster".

I believe the CF needs "hidden shoppers" to wander through the CFRCs and report back on what happens - it works in retail to improve service and identify deficiencies.


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## NCRCrow (26 Dec 2007)

Excellent post by Navy-Nesop!

The Navy is not the army or as sexy as the JTF2. 

The NESOP trade is far from exciting!


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## navy-nesop (26 Dec 2007)

You are right HFXCrow,

"The NESOP trade is far from exciting!",

Except when I got to say " A system missile away, ETA to target 10 sec... (10 sec later) A system target kill." in '96 onboard HMCS Winnipeg.

But it's true, if you are expecting action all the time that would be the wrong trade.  But I love it ...


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## Albedo (26 Dec 2007)

This advice seems like a no-brainer, but some still don't see it. 

I wasn't offered the "deal" to sign for a red trade and then attempt transfer upon completion of BMQ, but I did talk to a few people during recruiting who thought they were. I can't say if the staff told them it was possible or if they thought they were beating the system and speeding up their recruiting themselves.

I had SigOp (red) and LCIS as my 1 and 2 choices, and a CWO friend gave me some solid advice about those trades, their experience, and which they thought I would prefer long term. I asked if it would be hard to transfer out of SigOp into LCIS if I found it wasn't what I expected. It was explained to me how hard it would be to transfer out of a red trade into something that is non red.

I was also told off the record that occasionally some staff will bend rules or give half truths (such as you can re-muster but it could take a few years) to get bodies in.

I thought long term and decided I wanted LCIS more than SigOp and decided it would be worthwhile to (possibly) wait an extra 3 months to sign for that trade versus starting now and maybe being unhappy for some time while trying to transfer. 

Things to think about.


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## NCRCrow (26 Dec 2007)

I am just sick and tired of OS reporting to the ship and putting in their remuster~! And the  famous quote: "They told me I could put my remuster in once I got to ship" A. Who in the F*ck is "they" and B. See below

Here is your bucket and deck rags and report to # 2 Heads. The heads needs some attention.

Take the trade you want in the CFRC process and wait if you have too.


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## navy-nesop (26 Dec 2007)

I never tough I would say that one day,

I can't wait to do cleaning stations on a ship again!  WOW I said it!  Anyway... 

We need more people now and we have the budget to get them.  The only thing is the machine is not rigged for it it seems.  What happened with "Do what you are told and shut up."  I can't tell you how many times I had to say during my QL3 "This is the Military folks, not democracy."  I believe the message has gotten lost from trying to be politically correct.  The Military is different than any other jobs out there.  It can't function properly if you try to run it like a normal business or any other government entity.

I understand the recruitment problem, we have to attract more people.  I think the Forces would benefit from some major change in training policies.  For example in the Navy.  You could have the recruits after BMQ sent to NETP for the basic sailor training.  So your first qualification is sailor.  Then you could be sent on a ship for seamanship duties in general.  You could do a package that would send you in different department for a few weeks at a time.  Then you could pick the trade you really want.

That could take care of a few administrative problems.  Lets face it, is a newlie QL3 qualified sailor really that usefull in the trade.  It takes time to learn and be efficient.  On top of that it could probably keep the new troops happy.  After all, you join the navy to go on a ship, not to stay in the training system for months.

I'm sure you more experienced sailors would agree to this, and it probably could work in other areas in the Military too.

this is navy-nesop, over


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## Jacqueline (27 Dec 2007)

ThX for the post Navy. I had a plan to join the reserves as a Med Tech, but I'm thinking of Reg. Force (a different trade) . Well now I'll  save the recruiting office any unnecessary hassle.


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## Meridian (27 Dec 2007)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I believe the CF needs "hidden shoppers" to wander through the CFRCs and report back on what happens - it works in retail to improve service and identify deficiencies.



They do, all the CF needs is to read the posts on Army.ca!  
I agree that some sort of secret shopper type program might wake some people up, but I have a sneaking suspicion that that information may fall on less than perfect-hearing ears.


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## NCRCrow (27 Dec 2007)

More Reg force in the recruiting centers and less reserves! ( I am ex-reservist so hold the comments)

I went with my sister to the CFRC in Ottawa as my sister was applying to be a MARS Officer and some Cameron Highlander Sgt was tellling her about life at sea.

I nearly fellout of my chair.


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## RHFC_piper (27 Dec 2007)

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> More Reg force in the recruiting centers and less reserves! ( I am ex-reservist so hold the comments)
> 
> I went with my sister to the CFRC in Ottawa as my sister was applying to be a MARS Officer and some Cameron Highlander Sgt was tellling her about life at sea.
> 
> I nearly fellout of my chair.




You have to consider a few things about that though;

- although he is a Reserve Sgt, He will have the most up to date information about the trades available.  (besides, he may have a Navy background... there are a few Sgts in my res unit who are ex navy)

- If you are basing all judgment of exp on type of uniform, consider that not all Air force personnel fly, not all Navy personnel go to sea and not all army personnel... uh.. i don't know... drive tanks.  Would it have been more settling to have this information delivered by a Navy member, who may have never even seen a ship, just because of their uniform?

- Along with my first point, and NOT A KNOCK ON RECRUITING PERSONNEL; sometimes being posted to a recruiting centre for a long time takes the relevance out of any personal experiences the recruiter is telling you about... this is why recruiters are told to pass on information which is given to them by the system and not go by what they did when they were active in their parent trade... Otherwise, it would be like a Kosovo vet telling a soldier headed to Afghanistan what things will be like; granted, it's good knowledge, it's just not up to date... thus the system steps in.

As much as it may have floored you to hear a reservist talk about the Navy while out of element and branch, he most likely had the most up to date info about the trade and could provide the best source of information when it came to the specifics.  

Just my $0.02


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## Michael OLeary (27 Dec 2007)

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> More Reg force in the recruiting centers and less reserves! ( I am ex-reservist so hold the comments)
> 
> I went with my sister to the CFRC in Ottawa as my sister was applying to be a MARS Officer and some Cameron Highlander Sgt was tellling her about life at sea.
> 
> I nearly fellout of my chair.



I don't understand your point.  Are you saying every CFRC needs to have on staff a representative from every element and trade to ensure that every response is based on personal experience?


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## Proud Dad (27 Dec 2007)

There is another angle to look at this subject from. Even if a recruit has done proper research about the type of trade that would interest them, its often the rumours they hear at BMQ that make them doubt that decision. 

One of my sons had made a firm decision for which trade to apply for, and was accepted based on that. Several times during BMQ he heard from various Instructors that He had chosen a "Dead Trade" and should have taken "_______". I wonder how often this happens with the Recruits you all are referring to here. 

He was also told at BMQ that the CF is clamoring for all the recruits they can get, so its hard to turn someone down when they do want to transfer. I believe he will stick with his choice based on all that appealed to him originally, but there were moments of doubt.


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## navy-nesop (28 Dec 2007)

What if we add a generic trade for every element.

I'll talk for the navy, because, well, I'am a sailor.  Let's say after BMQ, you where sent on your NETP (Naval Environment Trainning Program), then you become a generic sailor.  You are then sent to a sea going unit to perfect what you have learned on your course.  You could get to spend a few weeks with every trade to see what they do and how life is for these people.

After a few months, you then get to aplly for a specific trade.  Takes care of the personnel awaiting trainning (PAT), because you can still stay onboard while waiting for an opening for trainning.  It helps the unit to have a full crew.  More people would be sent to their right place, thus less administrative issues for seasikness and remuster.  It might even keep the new recruits more interested since they get to do something right away.

I'm sure this could also be applied for the Army and the Air Force.  What do you think?

all stations, this is navy-nesop, over


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## dimsum (28 Dec 2007)

navy-nesop said:
			
		

> What if we add a generic trade for every element.



I'm not exactly sure how one could do this for the Air Force.  Having untrained people hanging around the techs doesn't really sound like a good idea when they're busy, and where else could you put them?  If you detail them off to a section, aren't you just creating another PAT-like organization (albeit for a much shorter timeframe)?  

Now this has got me wondering; if we're having "problems" with PAT and related with a force of about 60,000....what did they do when we were a much larger force!  All stories of PAT/PRETC that I've heard start out with "it grew to this size", so how did people get put to work prior to the CF downsizing?


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## navy-nesop (28 Dec 2007)

For the Navy, it would work really good.

On ship, there is a lot of non related trade work to be done.  Cleaning, painting, storing ship and all sorts of different jobs that do not require long trainning.  On top of that our ships are gething older already, so it means more work.  We actually sent PAT to sea before they even get their NETP.

The Ottawa sailed with 70 people missing on her last trip.  70 out of 225 is big hole.  But I agree, if I where a pilote, I don't think I would like to have a PAT near my plane....!  LOL

Probably the Army could also handle  a generic trade or PAT.  Can anyone confirm?


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## NCRCrow (28 Dec 2007)

Michael O`Leary said:
			
		

> I don't understand your point.  Are you saying every CFRC needs to have on staff a representative from every element and trade to ensure that every response is based on personal experience?



Actually, yes I am. At least a regular force element representative not a recruiting center full of Class B reservists.


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## CallOfDuty (28 Dec 2007)

Navy-nesop, I really like your ideas about sending people to a ship for a few months before picking their new trade.
   When I did my NETP, it was my first opportunity to get on a ship, and alot of the other fellas too.  Let me tell you , that some of the people I was with were not liking what they saw.........the tight sleeping quarters.....the claustraphobic aspect of it........
  Some of the guys were already saying " hell no, am I gonna live in this big hunk of metal for months at a time!"
          In my opinion, when a person decides to select a navy occupation, they should be, at a bare minimum, be given a tour of a ship......spend a day there, asking questions to the different trades...check out the navy museum...watch some videos......then let the enrollee decide whether they think they'll like it or not.
  I suppose that would cost too much money to do that, but it would save time and resources down the road.
COD


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## Michael OLeary (28 Dec 2007)

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> Actually, yes I am. At least a regular force element representative not a recruiting center full of Class B reservists.



So you would have been ok with a Navy DEU MP, as the "regular force element representative" explaining the roles and duties of a MARS officer to your sister?


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## Eye In The Sky (28 Dec 2007)

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> Actually, yes I am. At least a regular force element representative not a recruiting center full of Class B reservists.



While I see what you are saying, I can't say I agree.  As an example, the "element rep" could be for the Army, a Veh Tech Sgt, who would then be giving someone who wanted to go Artillery the where-for's of being a gunner?   ???  Or lets say Johny Q walks into the CFRC, which has a Sig O as its Army Element Officer Rep, and wants the goods on what the life of a Tank Tp Ldr is like.  Can a Sig O give them the BTDT perspective?  

Now, if you take a second to think about this...why are there so many Class B folks in the CFRCs in the first place?  Is it because the Reg Force is alittle strained with....operations, and training system (ie instructor) shortages?


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## NCRCrow (28 Dec 2007)

I will gladly volunteer for a CFRC Shoreposting!

My trade could use some more shore billets.

My opinion is that reserves should look after reserve recruiting and and vice versa.  More regular force are needed (should be mandated) in the CFRC's especially Navy and Airforce.


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## Eye In The Sky (28 Dec 2007)

I know some PRes people who were at CFRCs for 7+ years...the Reg Frce people relied on them for their...'corporate knowledge'  

if there are more Reg Frce people requried, where should they come from if lots of the MOCs are red?  The trng system?  Op's?

 ???


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## aesop081 (28 Dec 2007)

Well, i know its a catch-22, but the solution to our shortages starts (but not limited to) the CFRCs so........


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## Eye In The Sky (28 Dec 2007)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Well, i know its a catch-22, but the solution to our shortages starts (but not limited to) the CFRCs so........



Regardless of what we do, we end up robbing Peter to pay Paul


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## Michael OLeary (28 Dec 2007)

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> I will gladly volunteer for a CFRC Shoreposting!
> 
> My trade could use some more shore billets.
> 
> My opinion is that reserves should look after reserve recruiting and and vice versa.  More regular force are needed (should be mandated) in the CFRC's especially Navy and Airforce.



Maybe you should volunteer for an RSS shore-posting, it might improve your knowledge and understanding of the Reserves and Reservists.


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## NCRCrow (28 Dec 2007)

In what capacity? I was a reservist for 5 years so please help me out? This is no way slamming the reserves or the miltia.

Whats your angle?


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## Michael OLeary (28 Dec 2007)

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> In what capacity? I was a reservist for 5 years so please help me out? This is no way slamming the reserves or the miltia.
> 
> Whats your angle?



I am wondering where your inference that the Reg and Res should only look after themselves comes from.



			
				HFXCrow said:
			
		

> My opinion is that reserves should look after reserve recruiting and and vice versa.



You don't seem to believe in a total force approach when manning against shortfalls across the board.  Your specific example leads to an expectation that any trade should be able to speak to someone with first-hand (and Reg/Res specific) experience at any CFRC.


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## Stoker (28 Dec 2007)

navy-nesop said:
			
		

> We actually sent PAT to sea before they even get their NETP.



I find that hard to believe since the FF/DC training they have to do on NETP is a requirement before they are allowed to set foot on ship.


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## navy-nesop (28 Dec 2007)

I know, does not make too much sense, but it's true.  There was even one guy that was QL3 qualified but did not have is NETP that was posted to HMCS Ottawa for their last trip because they where so short.  He went after for his DC/FF.

Things have change since ten years, let me tell you.


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## navymich (28 Dec 2007)

Stoker said:
			
		

> I find that hard to believe since the FF/DC training they have to do on NETP is a requirement before they are allowed to set foot on ship.



IIRC there is a regulation about allowing a certain percentage of ship's company to be non-NETP qual'd, isn't there?  I know that we used to only use it in extreme cases, like when we were very short manned and just needed an extra body (typically a 1's qualified bosn or such)


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## NCRCrow (28 Dec 2007)

You have to get a waiver from MARLANT similar to having guests sail for long trips.

We have been doing alot lately.


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## Stoker (28 Dec 2007)

airmich said:
			
		

> IIRC there is a regulation about allowing a certain percentage of ship's company to be non-NETP qual'd, isn't there?  I know that we used to only use it in extreme cases, like when we were very short manned and just needed an extra body (typically a 1's qualified bosn or such)



Right on, on my ship we don't do that because we require everybody for FF/DC. Kind of dangerous if that person gets delegated to the attack team and doesn't say anything.


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## dapaterson (28 Dec 2007)

Stoker said:
			
		

> Kind of dangerous if that person gets delegated to the attack team and doesn't say anything.



"Know your subordinates and look out for their welfare" is a fundamental of leadership.

If you have someone onboard not qualified to conduct fire fighting or damage control, their superiors should know and ensure they are not placed in such positions.


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## Stoker (28 Dec 2007)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> "Know your subordinates and look out for their welfare" is a fundamental of leadership.
> 
> If you have someone on board not qualified to conduct fire fighting or damage control, their superiors should know and ensure they are not placed in such positions.



Yes I know its a principal of leadership, even so I have heard of it happening in the rush to go to emergency stations. Like I said we do not allow non qualified NETP military members on board. Easy to say that when you have a crew of 200 plus, not so easy for a crew of 40 when you need everyone to be qualified.


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## dwalter (30 Dec 2007)

Sorry to bring the topic back to its origin but I was wondering if anyone knows how much harder it is for officers to swap careers. Not that I was planning to, but because I was limited by my vision, and might one day get it corrected that means I might want to switch jobs at some point. On the same train of thought, is it easier to re-muster after your contract is up, and before signing the new one? Thanks.


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## aesop081 (30 Dec 2007)

dwalter said:
			
		

> Sorry to bring the topic back to its origin but I was wondering if anyone knows how much harder it is for officers to swap careers. Not that I was planning to, but because I was limited by my vision, and might one day get it corrected that means I might want to switch jobs at some point. On the same train of thought, is it easier to re-muster after your contract is up, and before signing the new one? Thanks.



There is an annual transfer program for officers as well. The restrictions are published in the routine orders when the program opens and things change from year to year.

There is no gap between contracts.


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## dwalter (30 Dec 2007)

Alright, thanks. The reason I asked is because I applied for INT, but I also have an interest in health services. At this time however I don't have the qualifications for any of the health officer jobs, and perhaps one day in the future I may. I just wanted to make sure I'd be able to switch over one day, just as the option.


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## aesop081 (30 Dec 2007)

dwalter said:
			
		

> I just wanted to make sure I'd be able to switch over one day, just as the option.



You MAY be able to switch later on, subject to specific conditions that will apply to YOU at the time.


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## AgentSmith (31 Dec 2007)

I can understand wanting to join a red trade then doing a switch to the trade you want. I mean, a lot of people want to get in as soon as possible (myself included) but I guess to get what you really want you just have to wait. You know the old saying, Patience is a virtue (or as the military likes to say: "hurry up and wait"). Wouldn't it take a while to switch to the trade you want anyway? So you'd be waiting just as long for a transfer to the trade you want as opposed to applying to the trade at the beginning and waiting for spots to open up.


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## niceasdrhuxtable (31 Dec 2007)

AgentSmith said:
			
		

> I can understand wanting to join a red trade then doing a switch to the trade you want. I mean, a lot of people want to get in as soon as possible (myself included) but I guess to get what you really want you just have to wait. You know the old saying, Patience is a virtue (or as the military likes to say: "hurry up and wait"). Wouldn't it take a while to switch to the trade you want anyway? So you'd be waiting just as long for a transfer to the trade you want as opposed to applying to the trade at the beginning and waiting for spots to open up.



It's definitely not a very wise strategy as far as shaping your career path goes but I think a lot of people are under the impression that it's a very straight forward process with few obstacles or hurdles.


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## aesop081 (31 Dec 2007)

AgentSmith said:
			
		

> I can understand wanting to join a red trade then doing a switch to the trade you want.



i'm french but i'm sure i express myself in english very well. An OT to an other trade is* NOT * your right. Its a competition. You apply and *MAY* or *MAY NOT * get accepted. The trade you are currently in *MAY* or *MAY NOT * let you out. Join a fucking trade you like and that you wont mind doing for 25 years. My old trade was red...i had to wait *11 years* inorder to be able to OT to something else. Its not because OTs exist that you are entitled to one.


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## kitrad1 (31 Dec 2007)

"It's not a policy.  Officially, they are not supposed to make that statement.

Unfortunately, there are recruiters who want to make the target; there are also people coming in the door who hear "you can ask for a remuster" and interpret as "you're entitled to a remuster".

I believe the CF needs "hidden shoppers" to wander through the CFRCs and report back on what happens - it works in retail to improve service and identify deficiencies."

A little amplification to the previous comments....so long as there are recruiters and recruits, there will always be someone to say that the faceless, nameless "recruiter or Recruiting Centre told me.." Sort of like the "Someone in the pay office told me ..." 

First, when one is enrolled, there is a statement on the form (I believe that it is a CF 444) which states that they are being enrolled for occupation xxxx and that they further acknowledge that they have not been offered any other occupation. In fact, once they are in process, an applicant really has nothing to do with the recruiter anymore; their file is handled by file managers and their Military Career Counsellor (MCC). During the pre-enrolment briefing, when they go over all of the paperwork, they are advised that they have not been offered any other occupation. I have witnessed many pre-enrolment briefings where the applicants have been advised that if they think that they will enrol and then try to remuster, they might be in for a shock.

Second, recruiters are not assigned formal "targets". While CFRCs might be assigned their piece of the pie (the SIP), it does not flow down to the individual level. I know of no individual recruiter who is under any pressure to achieve assigned "targets"

There was a secret shopper program a number of years ago. Probably a good idea, however, I am inclined to believe that it is easier for some to blame the system rather than honestly say, " I just wanted to get in no matter what" At the end of the day, we are responsible for our own actions. Make a well informed career decision, ensure that you have  a realsitic understanding of what it is you are getting into and that you have realistic expectations.


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## a78jumper (31 Dec 2007)

I would be very leery about accepting a trade or classification on enrollment with the assumption you can OT or whatever later. I was enrolled as a MARS officer, and decided after my first summer of naval training at NOTC there was no way I was going to spend four years doing that let alone a career. Thus started three years of waffling, lies, deceit and manipulation while trying to get into something I could relate to and function as in the long term; certain naval staff officers at RMC and Venture seemed to take a perverse delight in messing around with the admininstrative process by which one was reclassed in those days. Really soured me on the Navy let me tell you, Sea Log was out of the question even though I was Sea Environment qualified by the time I was reclassed out of Phase IV MARS.  It had to do with the fact that MARS was hugely undermanned, Army Logistics was not , and then I proved more than competant at driving a ship; getting a "B" on Phase III was not a wise move in retrospect.  Believe you me it was no labour of love; I kept being told the only way out was to do well on my training, and in the end I did not even believe that. Some recruiter four plus years earlier had met his target though. I was screwed out of more than four months of seniority, but in the end I got what I had been asking three years for.


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## navy-nesop (31 Dec 2007)

CDN Aviator is right,

OT is not a right, it's a privilege.  Think about this for a second.  In any other job you pay to get trained in a school, then you apply for a position and get hired if your resume is the best that they have to chose from.  If you made the wrong choice, tough luck.  You can return to school or do your job and hope you will like it some day.

In the military it's different.  You get to choose for the trade you want.  Of course we have different openings like any other businesses.  Maybe you want a certain job, maybe we don't need it.  This is where the problem occurs.  Some people think they can beat the system here.  Now realise that the military will send you on basic training, then if you need some language training, they will take care of that.  After that you go on your QL3 (basic MOC qualification).  Because we are trying to train many people, the system is over loaded, no problem, you still get paid to wait for your training.  Realise this people, you are useless the military until you are at lease QL3 qualify, for officer I'm not sure of the training, but I think it's a bit longer. Anyway...

Normally they would hire you after you have a qualification, but because of the nature of our job, they have to train you if they want people.  So after you reach that point they spent maybe over 300 000$ on you.  It's just a guest, I don't know the real figures, maybe someone can fill in here.  A bit over a year salary, clothing, paying instructors, overhead expenses, security checks...

So if you re-muster, it means they have to find another person to do the job, train them again....  When they hired you it's because your position was already missing somewhere.  So let's say you are a NESOP (my trade), you get trained and get a re-muster after your training.  It means that the guy we are missing on the ship will not show up as predicted and it's going to take maybe another 2 years before we can get it.

Now, please pick the right trade and stick with it..

this is navy-nesop, over


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## X-mo-1979 (31 Dec 2007)

Pick the right trade from the beginning.
Nice topic title.
However for those of us who are not "blood" (meaning daddy was a SSM and you will be) or were raised around a army base,picking the right trade is kind of a moot point.How the heck did I know what trade I wanted to be,coming from a hick town never seeing a army guy before?Lets face is the army video's don't say "in the infantry you will be away from family for at least 9 months of the year""Followed by hours of drill pratice,enough mindnumbing drill to contemplate that there is a guy sleeping in a hotel making spec pay somewhere."Let's face it each video makes each trade look awesome to a civilian coming in.

The Aussies do what I think was called a Gap year,allowing you to look around trade to trade to see what interests you.We however show a video that describes armoured as "the monster garage" : and kids think its for them.Then when they get their very first taste of living in the woods,patrolling etc on basic they realise I hate this and want to work in an office.

So my main point is there is no way to know if you will like your trade,unless your a base brat or previous service.

Now it has been said that sometimes when your trade is red,you will not be able to OT.This is very true.However if you really want it bad enough release and re-enroll.I have had two friends get out and are now AVN techs,loving their jobs.

Basically you just have to guess at what you will like and try it out.If you dont like it release or OT and try again.


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## aesop081 (31 Dec 2007)

x-mo,

Some people ( and alot of them come to this site) just pick any trade available simply because one might get them in the CF faster than another. This is stupid and wasteful. I beleive that those are the people targeted by this thread.


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## ixium (31 Dec 2007)

Most people have access to internet in some way shape or form. Theres tons of information avaliable on the internet about the ups and downs of military life.

navy-nesop, from what the recruiter told me theres an atleast 3 year wait on OT. Plenty of time to use the information you gained from the training.


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## X-mo-1979 (31 Dec 2007)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> x-mo,
> 
> Some people ( and alot of them come to this site) just pick any trade available simply because one might get them in the CF faster than another. This is stupid and wasteful. I beleive that those are the people targeted by this thread.



Seen.Yes very wastefull.Wait out for the trade YOU THINK you want.


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## dimsum (31 Dec 2007)

Here's another idea (granted this may not work for all trades):

Join a reserve unit and "try out" the trade.  Again, this may not work for all trades, or in very isolated locations where there aren't a lot of reserve units.  But, it'll get you in the military and if you try to Component Transfer, it's a TON easier than trying to OT out of a red trade.  I know of many people (me included) leaving the NAVRES MARS trade to others and had zero hassle (besides asking if I really didn't want to go Reg F MARS instead   ) on the CT process.

Plus, chances are you won't have to redo certain parts of your training (BMQ/BOTC, etc.)  

Just something to think about...


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## navy-nesop (31 Dec 2007)

ixium,

yes, 3 years on the job seem a long time, but in fact, it's about the time it takes, for a sailor anyway, to become proefficient in his/her trade.  So if you re-muster, you did not help anyone really.

This topic was intended more for those who want to re-muster as soon as their off BMQ.  They already know they don't want to do the trade they are in.  These people jam up the system for those that really need a re-muster and those that are trying to learn the trade they choose.

Recruiting is not perfect, but read and ask question in these forums before you make a decision.  There are some really good advice around, and you will learn a lot from them.  There is probably ways you could even spend some time with a person who do the job you want if you asked it. (Maybe!)  Don't show up at your local base saying I said that.  Ask the recruiting center.  They are there to help you.  Don't worry, you can't get in trouble for asking questions there ... you are not military yet.  LOL.

Happy new year to all...!


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## Nemo888 (31 Dec 2007)

But the recruiter told me just go infantry and then if you don't like it you can do whatever you want,....

BWAHAHAHAHA >


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## navy-nesop (31 Dec 2007)

But there is so many movies out there about the army,

Is 'nt this the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth....! 

They never told me by joinning the navy I was going to have 4 to 5 hot meals a day, a warm bed, my laundry done for me and a fews days every two years in Hawai, Japan, Korea  ....

Nothing but respect for the army people..was a weekend warrior in 1992!

regards


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## ixium (31 Dec 2007)

> This topic was intended more for those who want to re-muster as soon as their off BMQ.  They already know they don't want to do the trade they are in.  These people jam up the system for those that really need a re-muster and those that are trying to learn the trade they choose.



Yes, but you sign something stating that you have read the agreement that says you can't transfer untill after 3 years. Although I think I've read here about people being able to do an OT to a red trade during BMQ, but I may have been mistaken.


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## mysteriousmind (1 Jan 2008)

Ok, here is my point Of view, 

when I applied, in 2006, I had applied Res Driver first and Supply second, and after being around Here,  I had the privilege of talking to people who did both jobs. I got the "pros" and "cons" of their jobs and well...I was lucky to discover that I wanted more to go Supply and that's what I got. 

Neverin a million year I could have gotten this info in a recruitement center. The web gave the Info I seeked. so people should be smart enough to take time and search about what could be their next 25 years profession. it is not that hard to find info. even for those people who doest not live near an CF facility.

_I have one question about "red trades" are there some way to see the list of those trades besside going to CFRC??_

thanks.


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## niceasdrhuxtable (1 Jan 2008)

mysteriousmind said:
			
		

> _I have one question about "red trades" are there some way to see the list of those trades besside going to CFRC??_
> 
> thanks.



There's a link on the CFRG website that has an Excel table with all the trades in the CF, their PMLs, their actual manning levels and their colour coded status (green, amber, red).

I'll try to hunt it down when I go back to work on the 7th.


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## axeman (1 Jan 2008)

As a person who has done a remuster and component transfer . both after long streaches . 9 in the militia 8 in the Infantry now im doing my thing as a HT . i see that you are saying get all the facts before you sign the line . well saying thats all fine and dandy but what if , after a while you find yourself lacking that certain something that you joined for . I joined the reg force  Infantry because the militia  wasnt offering what i wanted and the  PPCLI was. well after doing that for numerous yrs  I came to realize  that i wasnt able to offer the best bang for the buck with me taking a slot  there . so i made a choice to try something else to find out where i could make a positive input . well im doing that and being pushed by my seniors to  a more senior role  and position as im where i want to be as opposed to where i signed up to be but  have found out  that i dont like. think about it by allowing remusters they allow a cross movement in positions a higher quality of life.ie a more positive  outlook . rather then some one getting out  .if you say get out , well then you have to hire another person and then force the CF to retrain  from scratch  another soldier/ sailor /airman.


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## ixium (1 Jan 2008)

I don't think anyone here is saying that transfers are bad in anyway, its the people that sign up in a red trade thinking that after BMQ they will be able to easily switch to their choice trade .


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## Meridian (1 Jan 2008)

niceasdrhuxtable said:
			
		

> There's a link on the CFRG website that has an Excel table with all the trades in the CF, their PMLs, their actual manning levels and their colour coded status (green, amber, red).
> 
> I'll try to hunt it down when I go back to work on the 7th.



This one?

http://www.forces.ca/v3/engraph/jobs/careermatcher_en.aspx?bhcp=1


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## navymich (1 Jan 2008)

Meridian said:
			
		

> This one?
> 
> http://www.forces.ca/v3/engraph/jobs/careermatcher_en.aspx?bhcp=1



I think he means this one:

Here's the link for the _Occupation Status Matrix (Red, Amber, Green) applicable for the 2008/09 VOT competitions_: ftp://borden.mil.ca/cfrg/Bilingual%20Messages/ISS/Occ_Status_FY_07_08_All_Spring_b.xls


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## Meridian (1 Jan 2008)

Oh... DIN only. gotcha.


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## RTaylor (1 Jan 2008)

When I was doing my papers, etc, and waiting to get in I changed my mind so many times on my trade it'd make you sick, but idle minds tend to wander.

I had the chance to have a solid view of the trade I had signed up for in the Air Force and BOY, I am GLAD I changed it! I then switched it up a few times and had to change it due to no openings, but landed on Combat Eng. as my 1st choice and SigOp as my 2nd (Im amazing with computers, all self taught to the point I was the chief PC tech at a local PC repair center and I've worked various places in telecommunications, etc).

Either way I KNOW I'll enjoy the trade I'm in, and I'm just waiting for my call to Basic now (woohoo!). Just have to exercise a bit more 

Anyways, what I think should be done is a program to give enlistees a chance to see the trade they are applying for. 

- 2 weeks paid to spend time with 2-3 separate units of X, Y and maybe Z trade. Do this directly after Basic and make it mandatory because someone who enjoys what they do usually do it with more care and precision. Call it "Occupational Orientation and Testing" so it sounds official  ;D

- Alone time without the fear of rank with several tradesman to get a view of what they do and their personal thoughts on it (pick a random grouping who encompasses the lower ranks but not higher than a Master Corporal) 

- Have some basic hands-on experience and a intro to the tools of the trade, and if possible have them be part of an exercise that involves that trade in a combat / emergency situation

- Show them the crap side of each trade. Because the crappy work is always there.

- Give the enlistee 48 hours to make a final decision. Once made they are locked out of doing a occupational transfer for at least 1 year.

- Compulsory occupational transfer if someone is seen as being incapable of X trade, make them take a mandatory component transfer to another trade of their choice.


Well those are my thoughts on it, ye-haw.


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## Cat (1 Jan 2008)

hmm...just curious....

I personally would love to be a MedTech (reg) however I've noticed several people I know who've gone in for MedTech have been given sort of a forced re-muster before they've gotten through their actual Med training,not do to test failings, but just told that they weren't needed for that training so pick something else....  

I've been calling my recruiting centre but it being the new year/christmas season, they're closed...I do plan to keep trying

However...would it be worthwhile to go for a "red" trade that I'm also interested in, and prehaps remuster later on when the balence is better and there seems to be more Medtech positions available and the current "red" trade is no longer red?? Also with the expectation that if this didn't happen, I'd have a career and wouldn't even attempt to remuster.

totally theoretical and I will talk to a recruiter, but I just wanted some other opinions.


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## JAWS228 (1 Jan 2008)

Well, IMHO it would make more sense to go for the trade that you wanted to in the 1st place.  If I was get into a red trade, and was unable to re-muster to one that I had originally wanted to get, (even if I liked that trade) I'd still regret missing that opportunity.  

As for the "forced re-mustering" I would have no idea about that in the CF, but there are others here who would be able to better inform you about it.

My 2 cents.


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## Cat (1 Jan 2008)

Thanks alot for your opinion...

I'm thinking somewhat the same thing, but if they're not mustering that trade at all right now, I'd rather have the chance to serve then sit around and wait for that trade to open up.

Maybe less of a missed opertunity and more of a strong gust fromthe winds of fate saying I shouldn't be going for that trade??

Again, thanks for your input, I'll keep that in mind tomorrow when I talk to the recruiting people again.


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## mysteriousmind (1 Jan 2008)

People....just a little tough I have...

If you get accepted in a *Red Trade* to get faster in the Forces...then perhaps you will not be able to transfer from that trade because it is a *Red Trade*, don't you guys think...


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## Cat (1 Jan 2008)

As I said:

I would be fully prepared to remain in my musterd trade. Only to consider re-muster if it was to the benefit of the forces.


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## George Wallace (1 Jan 2008)

Perhaps they want to tough it out until the Trade is no longer RED.  Then when it is fully manned, and no longer RED, they can have experience and knowledge that they can put forward towards trying another Trade.  Just a thought.


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## Cat (1 Jan 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Perhaps they want to tough it out until the Trade is no longer RED.  Then when it is fully manned, and no longer RED, they can have experience and knowledge that they can put forward towards trying another Trade.  Just a thought.



that was deffinately a thought as well. Also I'm joining to work for the army/airforce/navy...I can have a preferance to a job, but if they need people working something else...why say no and turn down a chance to serve my country??


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## mysteriousmind (1 Jan 2008)

Meridian said:
			
		

> Oh... DIN only. gotcha.



Is is possible to get a copy of that xls files...as I do not have a DIN access....


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## aesop081 (1 Jan 2008)

Cat said:
			
		

> ..why say no and turn down a chance to serve my country??



Thats easy to say since you are not in any trade right now and commited for a few years of your life. Your enthusiasm to "serve your country" may not last long after a few years in a trade you realized you dont realy like. I joined as a field engineer. It was fun and i got alot out of it. After 6 years in the trade i decided i wanted to pursue a childhood dream and go fly in the Air force. I couldnt remuster because my trade was "red" and had to wait a long and miserable 5 years before it went "yellow" and was allowed to apply. Shortly after i remustered to my new trade, field engineer went "red" again. I could have been stuck there for who knows how long.

I know its difficult to be sure that a trade is what you want. But you can't join a trade for the sole purpose of remustering later. Even people want to be in "remuster only " trades have to remember that they may never have the oportunity to change occupations. A remuster is not a right. Its an oporunity that may or may not  present itself.

When applying, pick a trade that you beleive will keep you happy for however long you plan on being in the military. If an oportunity to try something else comes up, fantastic. If it doesnt, then you havent lost anything and carry on.

2 cents worth from a guy who is waiting for the selection board to make a decision on my application for a 3rd trade


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## George Wallace (1 Jan 2008)

mysteriousmind said:
			
		

> Meridian said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Now you are stepping into the realm of OPSEC and transfering files from a 'secured site' to a 'public' site, even if it is emailed to you.


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## mysteriousmind (1 Jan 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Is is possible to get a copy of that xls files...as I do not have a DIN access....
> 
> 
> Now you are stepping into the realm of OPSEC and transfering files from a 'secured site' to a 'public' site, even if it is emailed to you.



Sorry...  :-\


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## Cat (1 Jan 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Thats easy to say ... A remuster is not a right. Its an oporunity that may or may not  present itself.
> 
> When applying, pick a trade that you beleive will keep you happy for however long you plan on being in the military. If an oportunity to try something else comes up, fantastic. If it doesnt, then you havent lost anything and carry on.
> 
> 2 cents worth from a guy who is waiting for the selection board to make a decision on my application for a 3rd trade



I do beleive I stated that I would be picking a trade I would be willing to stick with no matter what. Also that I would only re-muster if a) I stayed in long enough and b) if the trade I was interested in was in need at the time that a re-muster was possible...

I don't beleive I ever stated I beleived remustering was a right, but that if it was a possibility it could be something I would consider at that time.

As for wanting to serve my country, if i inherited any of my families genes, then it shouldn't be an issue. My parents both served and while they are no longer Regs they are both still very devoted to this country and loved their service time with my dad still trying to get over to do a tour at 53.


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## aesop081 (2 Jan 2008)

Cat said:
			
		

> As for wanting to serve my country, if i inherited any of my families genes, then it shouldn't be an issue. My parents both served and while they are no longer Regs they are both still very devoted to this country and loved their service time with my dad still trying to get over to do a tour at 53.



I'm from a military family myself. Born on a Military base in Germany. Cadets from the age of 14, Joined the CF at 17. 

I'm not my father.

Your expriences in the CF will vary from that of your folks, i guarantee you that. What i was saying to you is that your desire to serve your country no matter what trade is easily tempered when stuck in a trade you figured out you dont like.

But hey, after 15 years of service, what do i know.


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## Cat (2 Jan 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I'm from a military family myself. Born on a Military base in Germany. Cadets from the age of 14, Joined the CF at 17.
> 
> I'm not my father.
> 
> ...



I thought I had made it clear that I would only choose a trade that I had an interest in, so I'm not sure why getting stuck in a trade I dislike is of such concern. Even if I think I like one more then another that can change, so it's not like going into one over another that I have equivalent interest in is a bad thing. 

I also didn't say I was going for my CD or anything. I'd love to make this a career choice, but there's no guarantee that will happen, and if I'm that miserable in my chosen trade, when my term of service is up, I can always VR. Chances are at that point I'd be getting married anyhow - or at least that's the plan, so it would be a convenient time to get out if it turns out the military just isn't for me....

I'm really not purposely going into this blind or with rose coloured glasses on, but I've worked alot of jobs I've hated and a few I've loved, 3 or 4 years isn't that much even if you don't adore your job. 

I respect your opinions, but it doesn't seem like you're listening to some of what I say either.


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## George Wallace (2 Jan 2008)

AH!  What is that saying: "Planning for Failure......."?


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## Cat (2 Jan 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> AH!  What is that saying: "Planning for Failure......."?



I generally try to plan for all contingencies...tends to work out better and keep me in a more positive frame of mind.

hopefully my last post doesn't sound like I'm planning to fail.....I'm really not....but I do realize that the military is not for everyone, and despite who I think I am, everyone changes, and their situations change....

rambling again, sorry....I just hope I don't come across as a planning to fail type...


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## cp140tech (2 Jan 2008)

Cat,

  Working a job you dislike and spending time in a trade you dislike in a place you dislike with a contract obligation to fulfill are very different beasts.  
  CDN Aviator isn't providing his opinions, he's relaying his experience, also very different.
  That being said you do sound very motivated and it seems that you have some idea of what your life will be like.  Good luck to you and enjoy any opportunity to serve that you have.


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## navy-nesop (2 Jan 2008)

Here is my 2c,

I was military from 1992 -1994 (reserve 031) and from 1994 to 1997 (reg, NESOP), was young an ambitious.  I choose a trade at recruiting (NESOP, Navy) after my reserve time, only had one choice on my application.  Recruiters told me, "are you sure you want this only, what if we can't give you this one", I said I'll wait then.  Got that trade, learned it, lived it in many countries too.  Then for some obscure reasons, (her name is Julie), I decided to leave the Forces.  Ten years went by, I missed the lifestyle, the travels, the ships, the adrenaline rush and most of all, the friendship.

I came up to a point in my life where I had a chance to right the wrong I would say, so I went back to the recruiting center.  Apply for the same trade.  It took them 6 hours to approve my application, after the two months it took for them to get my old file back from Ottawa.  (That's another story...).

Maybe I'm a lucky one that ended up getting the right trade for me, who knows.  The first choice you have to make is, "can I support the life style", read on it and ask questions on this site.  They will not tell you about 1 in 5 rotations for duty watch.  That's the price sailors pay for spending time in foreign ports.

In the end, it's all worth it.  You will never find another job where a persons would put hes or her own life on the line so your children can see you again.  Nothings comes even close.  Truts me I have had many other jobs.  The point of this post is to ask the new people to make the best choice they can with the info they have.  And if you get it wrong the first time, don't complain about it.  Do your job as if you really intended to do it.  Somebody's life may depend on it.  People usually don't like it when you say everyday you come to work that the trade they are doing is crappy... you know.

this is navy-nesop, over.


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## CallOfDuty (2 Jan 2008)

I am one of the ones who picked the wrong trade in the beginning.  I just didn't do enough research on what was involved in the trade, or what the training would be like.  I didn't join the trade just because it was red.  For many reasons, which I won't list here....I am sitting in PAT platoon now, and have been basically in limbo for about 1.5 years of my career so far.  It sucks....it's embarassing...and it just doesn't feel good to not be in a trade, doing what you signed up for.  Although I just found out I got my new trade and will be leaving in a few months for training.     
   It is not easy to leave a RED trade.  Actually in 99% of cases, it's almost impossible.  Especially if it is a navy red trade.  
      Just do yourselves a favour........wait, even if it's 2 years, just wait for the trade you really truly want.  Do as much research you can......try to do some job shadowing if possible, and wait for your call.
    Thats my advice.
Cheers all 
C.O.D.


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## mysteriousmind (2 Jan 2008)

OK Lets face it, choosing the right trade is not always a easy thing to do because of several factors. But people can do a minimum of effort and get the real story about things. Ask around...search on the web. Even if you live in a far and remote place were the military is non-existant. there allot of info. Available.

I just had a tough...when I plan to buy some electronics or a car or something alike (just bought a house) I did not based my choice only from what the "seller" told me. I asked around and took time to read about it. 

Why should it be different toward your career. I do understand that a vast majority of people will change career during their life...(at least in a civy world.)

But for the army I see it a little different and I have talked about it to Cat over MSN. The CF spends tremendous amount of money to get you to a point were you are an active member of the Canadian forces. From the point you enter the door of a CFRC to a point were you are working in a unit somewere. 

Why don't you choose correctly from the beginning even if it means that you have to wait longer to get what you want, instead of using the funds to get you qualified a second time, to take a place were someone wanted this trade from starters, taking one man power off the units.

I understand that sometime a re-muster can happen, for different reason (a dream, medical issue, and other reason), as I did a OC transfer. but It should be an exception, not a common way of life option. 

People, the fact you like your job or not is partly the way your attitude and view toward your job. you will have some great people to be around, some great place to visit or to live. Perhaps there are some place you would not be happy (like me in a boat for example) but then again what if at your next posting you find a great place you love, some people that you will love to work with.

Take your time, wait...every thing comes to whom is willing to wait.


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## Dog (8 Jan 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Is is possible to get a copy of that xls files...as I do not have a DIN access....
> 
> 
> Now you are stepping into the realm of OPSEC and transfering files from a 'secured site' to a 'public' site, even if it is emailed to you.



Or if you can get in touch with a BPSO, they can send you a paper copy of it... when I was in Meaford, that stuff was floating around like confetti on new years in Times Square... It's educational material for people who want to know their options, you don't need sec. clearance to look at it.


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## RTaylor (9 Jan 2008)

I think one of the biggest issues is how the forces.ca website portrays each trade. The people that write that, in my opinion, reaylly dont know whats inolved in that tradea nd they use general info and the rest is conjecture as to what they think goes on.

I have several friends in current trades in the AF / Army and several on these boards, and from what I've been told 1st hand the descriptors of said trades are either off base or make them seem very different.

 I just hope my ideas of Combat Engineer aren't way off lol.


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## Command-Sense-Act 105 (9 Jan 2008)

That's why you can use the search function to look for threads like this one.


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## Eye In The Sky (16 Jan 2008)

How about reading CFAO 11-12 if you want to know the CF policy on remuster for Reg Frce NCMs?

Just a thought...

http://admfincs.mil.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/011-12_e.asp


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