# CF-104 weapons



## fovcollector (30 Jul 2007)

Hi, just new here. I was wondering if anyone knows if the CF-104 ever carried sidewinders  and what year did the M61 Vulcan get put back in the plane, was it 1974? I really would like a picture of the CF-104 with sidewinders if it ever did carry them and are there links to official sites that state the date and weapons carried? Thanks


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## Jantor (30 Jul 2007)

Try this website: http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f104_27.html

It might have what your looking for.



Cheers


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## 3rd Herd (30 Jul 2007)

Also try searching this site under CF-104 or Starfighter we have had a couple of threads going on this.
CANADA AVIATION MUSEUM AIRCRAFT
LOCKHEED / CANADAIR F-104A STARFIGHTER
http://www.aviation.technomuses.ca/pdf/Starfighter_F104.pdf


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## George Wallace (30 Jul 2007)

Try Jane's or FAS.  Then check out both the aircraft and the missiles.


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## fovcollector (30 Jul 2007)

Thanks guys but nothing that really pins this down.


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## 3rd Herd (31 Jul 2007)

fovcollector said:
			
		

> Thanks guys but nothing that really pins this down.



"The M61 Vulcan cannon initially fitted to the YF-104A suffered from excessive vibration during firing and from occasional premature detonation of its 20-mm shells. The cannon also had a problem with handling high-G stresses during its early development stages. Things got so bad that on November 1, 1957 the Air Force decided that these cannon should not be installed in any more production F-104As and should be removed from existing F-104As until the problems could be fixed. Consequently, for a long time USAF Starfighters actually served without any cannon armament being installed, relying on the wingtip-mounted Sidewinders as their sole armament. In 1964, after the improved and vastly more reliable M61A1 was made available, the F-104As finally got their full armament."
 http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f104_3.html

"By January of 1972, the CF-104s had been converted from their nuclear role to that of conventional ground attack. A 20-mm Vulcan cannon was installed, and the fairing was removed from the cannon port. Twin bomb ejector rack carriers and multi-tube rocket launchers were installed."http://www.rcaf.com/archives/archives_aircraft/cf-104/index.php


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## Ex-Dragoon (31 Jul 2007)

Fovcollector have you even googled for some of the information you are looking for? While I am not a big fan of wikipedia they as well have some of your answers and the information that 3rd Herd has provided has been well done.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-104_Starfighter
Article states that the F104 carried 2 Sidewinders

http://www.starfighters.nl/
Lots of pictures


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## Spencer100 (31 Jul 2007)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Fovcollector have you even googled for some of the information you are looking for? While I am not a big fan of wikipedia they as well have some of your answers and the information that 3rd Herd has provided has been well done.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-104_Starfighter
> Article states that the F104 carried 2 Sidewinders
> ...



Thanks for the links.  I have always love that plane.  Missile with wings!  

The pictures are great.  The CF-104 looks best in naked silver don't you think?  The one picture had the plane painted will CAF on the side and the words Canadian ARMED Forces on it.   That sounds a little aggrasive.   >  But honestly I did not know we called it the CAF at one time always thought CF.  Learn something new everyday.


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## 3rd Herd (31 Jul 2007)

Fov,
the first article posted reference too has a photo of a CF104 and all the possible weapons combinations laid out in front. I remember seeing that photo large scale in some CF offices. Using the citing coding from that photo you can obtain your very own copy from DND.

Ex,
I hate wiki with a passion. > But, the Norwegians(and possibly the Dutch) it looks like from the some of the articles had four sidewinders. Two on the wing tips and two more on/ or off set from the center line racks. The Germans had some nice "ship killers" hanging off theirs to go with our city killers. Now I haven't personally seen any whites on CF 104s but I can remember seeing quite a few with blues on the wing tips flying out of Cold Lake and Comox. You may want to read this article as it has a couple of interesting tidbits and photo's/drawings in it. Such as  “A terrific aircraft. As force mobility was important to FMC, the CL-84 Dynavert was developed by Canadair for a number of combat roles. Development commenced in 1963 and three prototypes were eventually produced. The Dynavert was capable of carrying 4,000 pounds of cargo or sixteen passengers. Here a group of soldiers demonstrates its troop-carrying capability in 1969. The U.S forces exhibited great interest in the Dynavert. Readers may note some similarity with the U.S. Osprey. (courtesy CF Photo Unit)"
Global Mobile II” The Development of Forces Mobile Command, 1965-1972 http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/caj/documents/vol_04/iss_2/CAJ_vol4.2_06_e.pdf
ah those were the days my friend.......................... 

Edit to add: Four sidewinders:
"In October 1961, F-104Cs were subjected to Project Grindstone, a program in which the Lockheed factory modernized the fighter. Among the changes made was the addition of a catamaran-shaped device which enabled another pair of Sidewinder air-to-air missiles to be mounted underneath the fuselage. When this device was attached, the nuclear weapon could not be carried. The device was not popular in the feeld as it had an extremely high drag and the glass seeker heads of the Sidewinder missiles tended to get badly pitted by dust and debris kicked up by the nose wheel. The aircraft was also given the ability to carry and deliver a larger variety of air-to-ground weapons, including 2.75-inch rockets, napalm, and gravity bombs."http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f104_9.html


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## Signalman150 (31 Jul 2007)

Okay, I'll throw in my two cents worth, and have somebody call me on it.

I grew up around the Starfighters back in the early 60s (in Germany and Sardinia), when they originally had the Nuclear Strike role in NATO. I have never, never seen Canadian Starfighters with Sidewinders.  Yes, the F-104 was designed to carry them on wingtip rails, but while the US and other countries did so, the Canadians did not.

Now, here's where I'm guessing, but the original Nuke Strike role precluded the use of air-to-air missiles; the starfighter was never meant to be a "dog-fighter". When it went to a Ground Strike role in 1972, (which is when they finally mounted the Vulcan minigun) they loaded the thing with exclusively air-to-ground stores.

IIRC the only Canadian aircraft that carried Sidewinders prior to th purchace of the CF-18 was the Navy's Banshee fighters in the late fifties. The Voodoo carried a combination of Genie and Falcon rockets on a "flip-over" door in a semi-recessed weapons bay--but no Sidewinders.

One other thing re: markings.  After integration, all Canadian Forces AC carried the legend CANADIAN ARMED FORCES on one side of the fuselage and FORCES ARMEES CANADIENNES, (pls forgive me if I've spelled it wrong) on the other. The lettering was the same red/black shadow type used on RCAF aircraft prior to that. It disappeared after a while and was eventually replaced by the current Canadian government logo.


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## 3rd Herd (31 Jul 2007)

Just because we all have not heard of it does not mean it did not happen. The picture below also did not happen but here is another CF aircraft with under the wing air to air. And the missle type has not been mentioned yet.


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## fovcollector (1 Aug 2007)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Fovcollector have you even googled for some of the information you are looking for? While I am not a big fan of wikipedia they as well have some of your answers and the information that 3rd Herd has provided has been well done.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-104_Starfighter
> Article states that the F104 carried 2 Sidewinders
> ...



I have done a ton of googling for this but any article states that yes the role of the CF-104 was changed in 1972 and the guns were re-installed. The problem I have is a couple of guys insist that the guns wasn't re-installed until 1974. They say that the article says the guns were put back on but they never say for example: June 23 1972 the first gun was re-installed. As for the sidewinders they say that these sites that list the specs with sidewinders included are mistaken and are including them from the US version. Until they see a picture with them on a CF-104 I'm afraid I can't settle this. I have seen pictures of the weapons load and I don't see sidwinders but then there are those specifications on several sites that contradict this. They have it on the Canadian Warplane Heritage Center and RCAF.com. One minute I say yes to these things and the next I say no. Too many conflicting articles and not enough photos to put an end to this once and for all.
I appreciate the links from everyone but I have been to them all but like I said above, no specific dates given for the gun and no photos of a CF-104 with sidewinders.


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## 3rd Herd (4 Aug 2007)

Some interesting information and pictures:
PDF pg 10 of 12
http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/engraph/Vol7/no3/PDF/09-stouffer_e.pdf has a picture of a CF-18 and a CF-5 flying side by side with blues on the wing rails.

Next:
Following the cancellation of the Velvet Glove AAM, a few Mark 5s were used to fire Sparrow radar guided AAMs in tests and redesignated "Mark 5M". Four Sparrows were carried on the underwing pylons. There were similar trials with Canucks carrying four Hughes GAR-8 Falcon AAMs on underwing pylons, or carrying a single MB-1 Genie unguided, nuclear-armed AAM on each wingtip. Of course, no CF-100 ever carried these weapons in service. http://www.vectorsite.net/avcf100.html

Next:
A History of Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 321
A rare view of a squadron black-nosed F-4B Phantom flying alongside a Canadian CF-5.
Marine Corps Air Reservists frequently exchanged visits with Canadian squadrons. Those are not wing tanks on the CF-5.

In January 1977, 321 joined its Dallas sister squadron, VMFA-112, for a Sparrow missile shoot at NAS Point Mugu, California. This missile shoot, combined with an extensive dissimilar air combat training program with Canadian CF-5s, and Marine A-4s, highlighted
an overall successful ATD.
http://www.usmc.mil/directiv.nsf/296c3de7ecae538985256d1100686a36/9dae59d455dec056852571b1005fcd70/$FILE/A%20History%20of%20Marine%20Fighter%20Attack%20Squadron%20321%20PCN%2019000311400.pdf.
  Pdf  page 38 0f 60

Next:
THE AVRO CANADA CF-105 ARROW PROGRAMME: DECISIONS AND DETERMINANTS
“During 1955 the RCAF selected the American Douglas Aircraft Company Sparrow II, a missile under development for the US Navy, as the armament for both the improved Canuck and the Arrow. However, in 1956, the US Navy - the sole US customer - announced that for budgetary reasons it would not procure the Sparrow II after the completion of its development programme. Despite the increased cost and effort, the RCAF and DDP effectively took over the programmehttp://scaa.usask.ca/gallery/arrow/thesis/thesis8.htm

Also you can try looking at the Mark 6 proposal of the CF-100, and the Mark 3A of the same aircraft.

Fov your quote:
"The problem I have is a couple of guys(sources??????? we religiously post ours which makes this site so good) insist (where is their proof that it did not)  that the guns wasn't re-installed until 1974. They say that the article says the guns were put back on but they never say for example: June 23 1972 the first gun was re-installed. As for the sidewinders they say, (again proof and citing) that these sites that list the specs with sidewinders included are mistaken and are including them from the US version.

Lastly for the humor of the day:

"It was during one of these CAP missions, at 2:00am on January 30 that two Canadian pilots, Maj. David “DW” Kendall and Capt. Steve “Hillbilly” Hill were called upon to attack an Iraqi patrol boat, a TCN-45 which carry the deadly anti-ship Exocet missile and anti-aircraft guns. Both aircraft strafed the speeding boat, well illuminated by moonlight, with observed 20 mm cannon hits. Passes were made to try a weapons system lock for the-air-to ground Sidewinder, but the boat’s heat signature was insufficient. In a subsequent pass, Kendall received a full system lock on air-to-air mode and launched a Sparrow missile which impacted the water close to the boat. This event represented the first instance of Canadian forces firing on an enemy in a declared combat since the Korean War. Otherwise however, CAP missions proved to be relatively routine. The armourers were frustrated with the lack of work."
http://www.richthistle.com/article_include.php?i=a6_hornets.php

Edit to add:

CF-104 and Sidewinders

In 1972.......................There also appeared to be some potential to equip at least a portion of the CF-104 fleet with AIM-9 Sidewinder heat seaking missiles during wartime..............441 Squadron..............Sidewinder carriage on the 104 mated to a catamaran which was in turn attached to the fuseledge centerline bomb rack. Through trialing it was determined the rack was suitible, but in wartime use all electrial fittings were being used..............appropiate wiring for this missiles could be installed during depot-level inspection................decreased operational flexibility in 441 squadron since they would be the only ones to get the missile equiped aircraft............as the CF-104 program was looming closer to an end the plan was scrapped.(Picture below shows another option tried with the winders on the wings)

Offensivley, CF-104 pilots were taught to close to heat seeking missile parameters in an enemy's stern quarter..........................

As to the cannon issue
the first remodified CF-104 was picked up at Cold Lake in January 1974, the pilot was John Glover and the aircaft came with a fixed iron ring gunsight. Now cannons just do not appear in an aircraft overnight for example problems such as the "rate kicker had to be sorted out. The first actual in ex use of the cannon firing aircraft was I think between 27th of May and June 5th 1974.(4ATAF)


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## TCBF (21 Aug 2007)

"The pictures are great.  The CF-104 looks best in naked silver don't you think?"

- Yes: with RCAF painted on it!

" The one picture had the plane painted will CAF on the side and the words Canadian ARMED Forces on it.   That sounds a little aggrasive."

- Six squadrons of CF-104s standing Quick Alert with nuclear weapons on a centerline pylon and the word "ARMED" on the side is aggresive?


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## 3rd Herd (21 Aug 2007)

TCBF said:
			
		

> "The pictures are great.  The CF-104 looks best in naked silver don't you think?"
> 
> - Yes: with RCAF painted on it!
> 
> ...



In doing the digging around for the posts I kind of like this paint job the most. Sort of reminiscent of the First World war planes.


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## Jantor (21 Aug 2007)

There is a CF-104 in those colours at the Warplane Heratige Museum in Hamilton. I saw it when I visited the museum last fall.


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