# Army marksmanship standards



## Jason Jarvis (14 Jun 2003)

Does anyone know where I can go to find out more information about the army‘s marksmanship standards?

As a civilian shooter I don‘t have any experience with how the army trains its soldiers to shoot, except what I‘ve read in The Maple Leaf about the annual small arms competition (CFSAC?).

However, I‘ve recently volunteered as a civilian instructor to help a local army cadet unit get its marksmanship program up and running. One of the things I would like to do is to get the shooting team up to Borden with the C7 next Spring, both as a way to wrap up the training year with a bang (sorry, had to say it) and to thank them for all the hard work and dedication I know they‘ll have put into their training.

I also want to give them some idea of what to expect, and maybe work some exercises into the training program beforehand. Even though the air rifle is the primary focus of the current cadet marksmanship program, my corps still has a few C No. 7s (.22 LR) and I plan to get them out on a 50 m range with these next Spring, too. I know it‘s June now and this probably won‘t happen -- if it does at all -- for almost a year, but I want to be prepared.

I would really like their training to be as realistic as possible -- within the confines of being a *cadet*, of course -- but I think it‘s important that they be able to walk away knowing they were graded at the same level as other soldiers. This is more than just being able to "walk the walk" -- it would also be to gain an appreciation of the high standards of marksmanship to which Canadian soldiers are held (or at least, I hope they are).

Besides, it might also help to humble them a little bit, something I think should occur to teenagers more often!

Thanks.


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## Zoomie (14 Jun 2003)

Can‘t help you on the marksmanship scoring.  If I said that you need to score something in the area of 55/60 on your PWT would that mean anything to you?  Probably not.

As for Cadets shooting the C7A1, I would say that your chances of that happening are pretty slim. Not necessarily impossible, just next to impossible.  Firstly, the C7A1 is a Prohibited Weapon under Canadian Law, therefore civilians are not even permitted to handle it, never mind shoot the weapon.  Needless to say, it does happen.  However, in order for your Cadet Corps to see a C7A1 you will have to get "in" with a local Militia unit and utilize their trained instuctors.  It is possible that you could organize your cadet shooting team to witness a PWT shoot on a weekend when the Militia unit is firing (most likely in the fall).
After the incident with the Army Cadets being given a live M67 Fragmentation grenade and blowing themselves up with it, the CF is a little more tight-fisted with their weapons and children.


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## onecat (14 Jun 2003)

Okay maybe thing have changed, since I was in cadets.  But when I was in the Wellington Rifles, we had FNC1‘s, 303‘s and used both them often, sometimes going the range twice a month, if the budget allowed the for it.  The FN is in the same class as the C7 I beleive in terms who was allowed to use it.  Of course this was back in 86-89 so maybe things have really changed since then. I‘m sure the Liberal budget cuts have hurt the cadets as well and sure they have moved even farer away from the actually Forces.  Can‘t have teenages learning about army and all that crap.

Why would be any harder to get C7‘s than FN‘s and do cadet crops since have then.  If they do, then why would care about firing a C7, the FN is better to learn on any ways.  And then when you go down to lighter round if you joing the Forces it‘ll be easy for ya.  That being said I‘m looking forward to getting in and learning the C7 and C9 hopefully.  So I can compare then to the other weapons I‘ve used.  I had a friend who was a gun nut in highschool, and he owned a M-14, HK-91, lots of both action weapons, even access to a Bren and MG-42... fun stuff.


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## Zoomie (14 Jun 2003)

Unlike the FNC1, the C7A1 is classified as a Prohibited Weapon due to the fact that it is capable of firing fully automatic.  Civilians are not permitted to be in possession (ie holding) such weapons in Canada.


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## DnA (14 Jun 2003)

when I Was in cadets, I only shot BB rifles with my unit, then when I went to the cadet camp in Vernon, CL, we shot .22‘s an .303‘s

on some of the CLI courses, least last year, they got to shoot the C7 rifle, only like 1-2 5 round magazines

my brother was in cadets a while ago, an last summer, he was at vernon taking CLI DNC, an he got to fire the C7 rifle, they only did it the once


but, I‘v heard things now that cadets arent allowed to shoot the C7 rifle anymore


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## Jason Jarvis (14 Jun 2003)

My corps‘ CO has assured me that *army* cadets are allowed to shoot the C7 -- not the C7A1, mind you -- and only on semi-auto, of course. There‘s some kind of regulation about the optical sites turning the rifles into "sniper rifles" that make them ineligible for cadet use. Go figure.

The shooting must be surpervised by either PRes or Reg force weapons instructors MCpl and up, one instructor for each three shooters on the line. Since my corps is sponsored by the 48th Highlanders, getting the required number of instructors is a simple matter of convincing the regiment to pay for their time.    We can apparently draw rifles and ammunition from the weapons lock-up at Borden and amuse ourselves all day.

But since I‘m "only" a civilian, do you think I‘ll get to shoot the C7? Ha! Probably not. . . .
 :sniper:


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## Recce41 (15 Jun 2003)

Cadets cannot fire any automatic weapon on the range. My daughters have or are in cadets, back in 95 when the Libs got into power it changed. Before they could, do intro shoots. Zoomie possession does not mean HOLDING it means owning or in a place owned by them. If just holding is braking the law well every job fair the RCMP,OPP, city cops have broke the law. As well as DND. I am a gun owner and was to purchace a 50,vickers, and a sten for the renactoring I do. But it took to much paper work. Until the law is changed, my owning a sten or any other gun like that small.
Cadets can go to Armours though and see and learn about them. As for civies. Some gun clubs do have AR 15s. They are just a civie C7.


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## Sundborg (15 Jun 2003)

I‘m am in cadets at the moment, and all our corps gets to shoot is the Daisy Air rifles and the #7 LF .22‘s.  It is still a good program for the cadets using these rifles.  I don‘t think that we would ever have a chance to shoot and actual C7 with the cadets; but it would sure be nice though.


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## MikeM (15 Jun 2003)

I‘ve shot the C7 numerous times in my cadet career, I can assure you its not prohibited from our use. The C7A1 is however, and we must fire on Semi-Auto.


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## Jason Jarvis (15 Jun 2003)

Yes we can . . . no we can‘t. Somethings never change, eh?

Back to my original question: is there an online source for information on the Personal Weapons Test (PWT) or whatever the CF calls its marksmanship test?

If there isn‘t, I‘d really appreciate it if someone could look up the manual number, so I can at least get my buddy to order it for me.

Many thanks.


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## Tyler (17 Jun 2003)

> Firstly, the C7A1 is a Prohibited Weapon under Canadian Law, therefore civilians are not even permitted to handle it, never mind shoot the weapon.


Yes and No.

Many civilians have a grandfathered status with prohibited weapons and are allowed to own fully automatic weapons, and anyone can shoot them so long as they are with the owner and are of a certain age (16, or 18, not sure). I have shot an FN C1 and an AK-47 and I don‘t even have my PAL yet.

I don‘t think Diemaco has ever sold weapons to civilians, but anyone with a restricted PAL can own an AR-15.



> Unlike the FNC1, the C7A1 is classified as a Prohibited Weapon due to the fact that it is capable of firing fully automatic. Civilians are not permitted to be in possession (ie holding) such weapons in Canada.


The FN C1 is a prohibited weapon. Being fully automatic isn‘t the only thing that will make a weapon ‘prohibited‘. Basically, the liberals can add any weapon they don‘t like to the prohibited list without even having a vote on the issue. As I said before, civilians can own almost anything so long as they are ‘grandfathered‘ ie: they owned any prohibited weapons before they were prohibited by the gov‘t.

The only sticking point with cadets would be the age issue.


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## Jason Jarvis (19 Jun 2003)

Since the issue of cadets shooting the C7 seems to be a hot topic of dispute, I decided to go looking through the CATOs to see if I could find the regulations around this. I‘d read them before, but had not saved them.

In CATO 14-41, Appendix 3, Annex A (April 2001), it says (excerpted):



> 3. C7/8 use for drill purposes is not authorized.
> 
> 4. Only C7/8 familiarization firing is authorized (B-GL-317-018/PT-001 â€œThe Rifle 5.56mm C7 and Carbine 5.56mm C8â€ Chapter 5, Annex A, Appendices 1, 3 and 4 should be used for guidance).
> 
> ...


So, where can I find info on the PWT?


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## Noid (20 Jun 2003)

Chapter 6 of this document:

 http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/ael/pubs/300-008/b-gl-385/001/PT-001/B-GL-385-001-PT-001_e.pdf 

contains what looks to be the PWT standards.


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## Zoomie (21 Jun 2003)

page 208 and on is the PWT for the C7

Only the Infantry carry out the "run-down" portion of that particular test.  You will see comments in the far right column that says "Infantry Only".


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## Jason Jarvis (21 Jun 2003)

Fabulous! Many thanks. 10.9s all around.


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## Jarnhamar (21 Jun 2003)

If im not mistaken and i hardly ever am, the reason cadets under 16 cannot use the c7 with c79 scope is because theres a bit of radioactive material inside and it‘s considered dangerous bla bla.  (like repelling and unprotected sex isn‘t) heh


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## D-n-A (21 Jun 2003)

hehe

yea, I think that‘s the reason


I was told that when I was a cadet


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## portcullisguy (25 Jun 2003)

Both the FNC1 and the C7A1 and their variants are classified as "Prohibited Firearms" in Canada, under the amendments made to the Criminal Code and the Firearms Act (they were formerly "prohibited weapons").

The FNC1 is probibited by order of the Governor-in-council.

The C7A1 is prohibited because it is designed to fire fully automatically.

Both weapons use "Prohibited Devices" - the magazines which are designed to carry more than 10 rounds.

Both weapons can be grandfathered, but the C7 must be made to fire semi-auto only, and that changes its classification to "Restricted Firearm".

A civilian - or anyone - may handle a Prohibited, Restricted or Non-Restricted firearm if they do not have a Firearms Licence, provided they are under direct supervision of a person who has lawful authority to use/possess that firearm.

They may not recieve, acquire, purchase, or otherwise possess such a firearm without either a lawful authority (ie, they are on duty military/peace officer/firearm examiner) or without a valid Firearms Lience for that class of firearm.

In addition, a private person who possesses such weapons must have an Authorization to Transport (formerly known as a "Carry Permit") to transport that firearm from place to place.  

Diemaco does not sell firearms to members of the public, even though it makes several of its rifles in semi-automatic only variants.  It is specifically prohibited from doing so under the terms of their manufacturing licence and their licence agreement with Colt, the makers of the original M16/M4/HBAR/Sporter, etc.

Another little known fact:  A civilian may purchase a Colt M4 (semi-auto only) in Canada as a Restricted Firearm.  This same firearm is prohibited in ALL 50 U.S. States.  Colt sells similar models, which are in fact almost identical, but which are intended for the civilian market, such as the HBAR/Sporter line.

If you have any firearms questions, direct them to a knowledgeable Customs Inspector!

I examine dozens of firearms a year and must be familiar with all of the laws relating to firearms and weapons in order to determine their admissibility into Canada.


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## Infanteer (25 Jun 2003)

A FNC1 is a prohibited firearm but an M-14 isn‘t even restricted.

Just goes to show the logic behind our firearms laws.


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