# The David Ahenakew Thread- Merged



## mo-litia (10 Jul 2005)

The thought police strike again...

Canadian convicted of hate crimes

Former First Nations leader of Native groups found guilty of wilfully promoting hatred when he referred to Jews as 'a disease' and justified the Holocaust in December 2002 
By Combined Wire Services 

SASKATOON, Saskatchewan - A retired Canadian native leader blamed a racist justice system and lobby groups after he was convicted of hate crimes for praising Adolf Hitler's murder of 6 million Jews.

Saskatchewan Provincial Court Judge Marty Irwin fined David Ahenakew CDN 1,000 (USD 820) for telling a local newspaper reporter in 2002 that Jews were a "disease" and that Hitler was trying to "clean up" when he "fried 6 million of those guys."

The conviction was praised by the Canadian Jewish Congress, which advocated for Ahenakew to be stripped of the Order of Canada, the country's highest civilian honor.

A defiant Ahenakew lashed out at the Jewish community, the courts and the media shortly after being convicted and fined for promoting hatred.

Ahenakew said he is convinced authorities decided to strip him of the Order of Canada before the court reached its verdict. 

"This, of course, was the direct result of the pressure put on the (Gov. General's) advisory committee by some of the Jewish community, including a letter-writing campaign and the lobbying by the Canadian Jewish Congress," he said at a news conference. 

*"If I'm forced to choose between freedom of speech and the Order of Canada, I chose free speech."* 

Ahenakew, 71, is currently a member of the Order of Canada, but on Thursday the Gov. General's office confirmed it has begun the process of stripping him of that honor. 

Tribal supporters

The former First Nations leader was found guilty of wilfully promoting hatred when he referred to Jews as "a disease" and justified the Holocaust in December 2002, a judge ruled earlier Friday. 

Irwin handed down his decision in a tiny courtroom packed with Ahenakew's supporters, members of the Jewish community and reporters. 

"My conviction says the power of this country lies with those who have the funds to back their lobbies, and the corporate and financial influence to bend the Canadian judicial system and the government at their will," a defiant Ahenakew told reporters after the verdict. 

But Ahenakew's lawyer refused to let him answer reporters who asked whether he thought Jewish people were responsible for his conviction. 

"He doesn't have to answer questions that are going to get him charged with criminal offenses," said Doug Christie, who said he plans to appeal the verdict. 

Ahenakew, 71, former head of the Assembly of First Nations, blamed the media for reporting his anti-Semitic comments and said he was suffering from a diabetes-related chemical imbalance when he made them - arguments Irwin rejected. 

Lapel pin

Ahenakew, wearing the lapel pin given to members of the order, said he would not give it up.

A spokesman for the governor general, whose office issues the Order of Canada, said an advisory council had already started the process of revoking the honor. 
  
Ahenakew would be the second person to be stripped of the honor. Disgraced former hockey czar Alan Eagleson had to give his up in 1998 after he was jailed for theft and fraud. 

Ahenakew said he was not surprised by the conviction because he believes the justice system is prejudiced against aboriginal people. 

"Hatred of First Nations people is rampant in our country, and it exists in the legal and justice systems, the media and the Canadian economy," he said. 

Ahenakew said he hoped his case would raise awareness about the litany of social injustices faced by aboriginals. 

"We've suffered under deliberate genocidal policies designed to rid the world of us," he said. 

"The injustices against First Nations people are more than equal to the horrors perpetuated against the Jewish community and the racism and ethnic cleaning that has so shocked the world in places like Rwanda and Bosnia."

Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this article

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3110562,00.html

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This guy obviously has some issues, but our legal system is being supremely arrogant in overruling the Charter Right to freedom of speech just because it is distasteful.

I guess the Charter of Rights and Freedoms only applies to those with politically correct causes...  :-X


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## Marty (10 Jul 2005)

"This guy obviously has some issues, but our legal system is being supremely arrogant in overruling the Charter Right to freedom of speech just because it is distasteful."

"I guess the Charter of Rights and Freedoms only applies to those with politically correct causes...  Lips Sealed"

It isnt the thought Police at work here , its the Speech Police , if he would have thought and not said he wouldnt have had a problem 

He  wasnt charged because what he said was distastful ,, he was charged because someone thought it was ilegal, which it was .........cause the Judge said so


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## Gramps (10 Jul 2005)

"Fundamental Freedoms (Section 2): This section includes the right to freedom of conscience and religion; freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communications; and freedom of peaceful assembly and association"

"Equality Rights (Section 15): This section includes the right to equal treatment before and under the law; and to equal benefit and protection of the law without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age, mental or physical disability. The courts have also recognized other grounds of discrimination that are not specifically set out in the Charter such as sexual orientation and marital status. This section came into effect in 1985."

The above quotes are from the following link about the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. http://canada.justice.gc.ca/en/news/fs/2003/doc_30898.html

So, yes there is the freedom of Expression but, there are also the Equality rights as well. Publicly making Anti-Semitic statements could also be considered an infringement on someones Equality rights. If the comments came from an Imam or any Muslim for that matter I would assume there would be more of an outcry from the public. The charges were appropriate but the punishment should have been more severe (just my opinion). With Freedom of speech also comes the responsibility to be held accountable for your words and the content of your message. Using the excuse that he was just repeating what certain German citizens had told him while he was serving in Germany is a very poor and ignorant point to base his ideas on, in fact it is an excuse not a reason. Someone in this persons position has the "ears" of many young people since he was a former leader and his ideas and statements can have a negative impact on many people. This issue has been brought up before on things like the publication and or possesion of child pornography, or how about Ernst Zundel and his group of Neo-Nazi, Aryan Brotherhood, RAHOWA (Racial Holy War), Christian Heritage Front, or Hammer Skin groupies when he tried to publish works with a similar message about Jews in North America.


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## mo-litia (10 Jul 2005)

Marty said:
			
		

> He   wasnt charged because what he said was distastful ,, he was charged because someone thought it was ilegal, which it was .........cause the Judge said so



Well thought out and succinctly expressed, Marty.  If one Judge says so, it MUST be correct....   

Gramps, while I agree with the equality section of the Charter, I disagree completely with the notion that the rantings of an old man would violate ANYONE'S Charter rights under the equality section. Since the Charter can be interpreted in this way, the wording of it should be redefined to *make the freedom of speech right paramount. *  While I agree that saying, "Rabbi So-and-so should be shot", should be illegal because it is a threat against a particularperson, one's expressing discontent-no matter how distasteful that expression may be-towards any identifiable group should not be forbidden.  

The hate law is a draconian law that has very scary implications in that it could conceivably be used to muzzle ANY viewpoints that the government feels are opposed to it's politically correct aims.  (Ie: A person who disagrees with homosexual marriage under the Christian religious principle that homosexuality is inherently wrong could be prosecuted for hatred against homosexuals under this unjust law-even though his expressing his views on that topic would be in accordance with HIS Charter right to freedom of religion.)   

Here is a news article from a major newspaper that supports this assertion.

http://www.canada.com/edmonton/edmontonjournal/news/opinion/story.html?id=5abdb8b3-4aa0-42bc-a81d-2e0b35f05125&page=2



> Ahenakew guilty verdict flawed
> Hate-crimes process only serves to eventually outlaw opposition
> 
> Lorne Gunter
> ...


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## Marty (10 Jul 2005)

"Well thought out and succinctly expressed, Marty.  If one Judge says so, it MUST be correct...."

In the Judges opinion it was the correct verdict, the accused is free to appeal , Im not sure what you mean by the "If one Judge says so , it must be correct" statement . This man was charged and the case was adjudicated in a court of law , do you have another suggestion as to who should have heard the case?


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## Gramps (10 Jul 2005)

Mo-litia, I can see your point to a certain degree but, he was not charged for his thoughts and feelings. He was charged for Anti-Semitic statements made in public to a reporter and there is a huge difference between the two. Besides, that article was from the opinion section of the paper and is just that..an opinion and should be taken with a grain of salt (just like anyone else's opinion including mine). The fact that his statements are referred to as "the rantings of an old man" does not make them right, as I had made reference to before, this "old man" was a leader in his community and therefore has a greater responsibility when it comes to public speaking. For him to use the "reverse racism " argument when he speaks of racism against natives is possibly the worst defence ever. If the situation were reversed with someone saying similar things about native people I could only guess that this gentleman (and I use the term very loosely) would be at the front of the line to bring him up on hate crime charges.


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## Britney Spears (10 Jul 2005)

Some friendly advice for both the anti-semitic twit in question, and some members of the board:

The terms "Political Correctness", "Freedom of Speech", "Slander" and "Libel" have distinct meanings. You can all google so I won't bother explaining to you why stating that "Jews are a disease and should be wiped from the face of the earth" has zilch to do with the first two terms. Suffice to say you will get much further in life if you have a proper understanding of these concepts, especially as a politician. 

Boy the Native community must be glad to have such a character as one of their leaders, eh?


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## Trinity (10 Jul 2005)

Crazy rantings of some old man?

He may be old, possibly crazy... but he is a well respected
leader of the community who HOLDS and Order of Canada.

Not every crazy old man gets an order of Canada.  

He's supposed to represent the best of what Canada
has to offer... so.. to make bold statements such as that
deserves the revocation of the order.


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## Infanteer (10 Jul 2005)

Sorry, read Section 1 of the Charter:



> 1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.



I think it can easily be demonstrated, both in society and within the courts, that making public proclamations that incite fear and hatred of the Jewish people is something that deserves to be held up for lawful censure (which it was).


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## vangemeren (10 Jul 2005)

I was going to mention section 1 but, Infanteer beat me to it.

Do other countries have a similar section in their charters? (If they have one)


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## Scoobie Newbie (10 Jul 2005)

Just to be fair he doesn't hold the Order of Canada anymore.

You can't yell fire in a crowded establishment if there isn't one and you can't speak about hateful things.   Freedom of speech has limitations.


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## mo-litia (10 Jul 2005)

Yelling fire in a crowded establishment is quite different from expressing an opinion, no matter how odious that opinion may be.  My point is that it is a violation of everybody's civil liberties for the government to dictate which opinions are acceptable and which are not. 

_How abominably unjust to persecute a man for such an airy trifle as that! 'I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it,'

S. G. Tallentyre, referring to Voltaire. Often attributed to Voltaire_


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## Acorn (10 Jul 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> "Jews are a disease and should be wiped from the face of the earth"


Britney Spears quoted the "rantings of an old man." Had he (Ahenakew) simply said "I hate Jews, and think they run too much of the country" or words to that effect I'd probably agree with yoyu, and Lorne Gunter. However, he said "...should be wiped from the face of the earth." If that isn't inciting violence against an identifiable group, I don't know what is. 

Acorn


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## Rebel_RN (10 Jul 2005)

ACORN hit the proverbial nail on the head there, freedom of speech is no longer that when you are inciting violence or harm on a particular group of people. I find that the Man's excuse for why he said it to be absolutely ridiculous as well and for trying to fob off his comment as the product of a medical ailment is utterly in-excusable.

Rebel


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## a_majoor (11 Jul 2005)

As much as I am opposed to the idea of "hate crime" laws in principle, I am for it in this sort of situation. I want all of you to take the various statements attributed to this person, clip the word "Jew" and insert your own name, the name of whatever ethnic, religious or geographical group you feel comfortable associating yourself with, and read it again.

Looks a whole lot different when it is pointed at you, eh?


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## Cdn Blackshirt (11 Jul 2005)

mo-litia,

As others have already said, freedom of speech should never be extended to include the incitement of violence and I'm frankly shocked that anyone would started a thread in defence of such statements.



Matthew.   ???


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## Wayne Coady (11 Jul 2005)

mo-litia said:
			
		

> The thought police strike again...
> 
> Canadian convicted of hate crimes
> 
> ...


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## Brad Sallows (11 Jul 2005)

Interesting. I've read some discussion boards where it was suggested that Christian fundamentalism should be eliminated from the face of the earth or at least from Canada, and funnily enough there were no objections.  I'm not sure how you get rid of the fundamentialism without getting rid of the fundamentalists.

I'm one of those flakes who believes in the strongest possible degree of freedom of expression.  Fight bad and weak ideas with good and strong ones.  In this case, I find the law to be a poor trade-off against rights because it tends to be enforced rather selectively: some groups may be defamed with impunity, and others may not.


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## Wayne Coady (11 Jul 2005)

Brad: I agree with you and talking never killed anyone. It is quite something else when a "political party" can put one of its citizens in jail for speaking out on an issue , by using the influence of "government" and that same "political party" can hide behind the umbrella of "government" to dump agent orange/ purple on Canadian citizens. 
You see this is what pees me off, political parties  get to do as they feel to people who speak out on an issue and these parties do so in the name of "government" , well whose "government" , its their's at that moment, "government" does not belong to the people, it belongs to .... business....unions... and   special interests groups with money.

It is like every time Tony Blair or George Bush open their mouth, some innocent citizen dies, while these two hide behind a fortress of   "government" protection. Now I am no condoning the terrorist actions here, but wouldn't it be great if Blair, Bush, Hussian and Bien Laden would just go have a shoot out, think of the lives that would be saved.


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## 1feral1 (11 Jul 2005)

The guy has had an 'attitude' for many years, and he obviously thought he was above the law. He stepped over the mark.

Quite frankly, it should be 'disicpline by example', and good on the system for coming thru, and putting this arrogant idiot in his place. This shows others that Canada will NOT tolerate such offensive behavior.

You should read this guys statement all about the wrongs the white society has plagued against Indians, as he claims for the past 400 years.

He got what he had coming, and as far as I am concerned a thousand dollar fine is NOT enough.

Wes


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## Wayne Coady (11 Jul 2005)

Well Mr Allen: He may have gotten what some feel he deserved , but punishment for other greater acts against humanity here in Canada go on noticed, especially when they are  done by a political party . Why is that ? Why is it that the "governing parties" between the 50 up to the present date  are still spraying chemical that kill ? Why did the Liberal Party and the Conservative Party use the government to spray agent orange and purple on soldiers and civilians  right here in Canada. Knowing that these  chemicals were dangerous to life? 

I think all citizens who were involved should sue these parties for criminal negligence, why must it alway be the "government" who pays for the criminal act of these dirty political parties?


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## Infanteer (11 Jul 2005)

:boring:

You have only one forward gear, don't you - go talk about the Tacvest for a few days or something....


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## 1feral1 (11 Jul 2005)

Wayne Coady said:
			
		

> Well Mr Allen: He may have gotten what some feel he deserved , but punishment for other greater acts against humanity here in Canada go on noticed, especially when they are   done by a political party . Why is that ? Why is it that the "governing parties" between the 50 up to the present date   are still spraying chemical that kill ? Why did the Liberal Party and the Conservative Party use the government to spray agent orange and purple on soldiers and civilians   right here in Canada. Knowing that these   chemicals were dangerous to life?
> 
> I think all citizens who were involved should sue these parties for criminal negligence, why must it alway be the "government" who pays for the criminal act of these dirty political parties?



Fliping flamingos! (more Aussie slang)

A $1000 dollar fine is not much of a penalty for blantent disgusting behaviour in regards to the holocaust. So you go on wining and dripping, moaning and groaning about it all ya want MR COADY.

WTF does agent orange have to do with an arrogant idiot who spewed   pure racial hatred out his mouth. I am not going to give ya a history lesson (your profile says only exRCD and no age, so who knows how old ya are), but try reading up on what the Germans did in those death camps to the elderly, women and children (about 6,000,000). Try telling your opinion to some survivors of this. Wouldnt they put you in your place!

Your comments about Blair and Bush considering the recent murderous attacks in London on the 7th, I find in very bad taste, and shows how much repsect you have for the victims and their families (they have not even been able to claim their dead and allowed to mourn BTW).

Seems some often forget what happened to our friends south of the border on 11 Sep 01, and on Kuta Beach on 12 Oct 02, Madrid last year, and loose the big picture, they want to carry the political banner (bleeting out about 'innocent' deaths and anti-war dribble) and NOT a rifle to end another war at the pointy end. Don't take your freedom of speech fro granted Wayne. It was paid in blood by a generation of Canadian youth, not that long ago, and others right now want to take this freedom from you and install and shove their twisted way of life and religion down your throat, or worse kill you and replace you with one of their own.


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## paracowboy (11 Jul 2005)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> You have only one forward gear, don't you - go talk about the Tacvest for a few days or something....


no no! Leave him here in Political. At least I expect and can ignore the rants here, but if he starts bringing them to other threads, I may get blind-sided.


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## Wayne Coady (11 Jul 2005)

Wesley H. Allen said:
			
		

> Fliping flamingos! (more Aussie slang)
> Don't take your freedom of speech fro granted Wayne. It was paid in blood by a generation of Canadian youth, not that long ago, and others right now want to take this freedom from you and install and shove their twisted way of life and religion down your throat, or worse kill you and replace you with one of their own.



Please, no one die to protect my freedom of speech here in Canada, we were never under attack, those who died   oversees, died protection the citizens of those countries, only to come home to a country that turned its back on many of them. 

We never just sent white men to fight in the First or Sevond World war, we sent Blacks and Native, then look at how we treated them when they came home. Funny isn't it, we sent our Native and Black boys over there to protect someone elses rights, only to return to learn that they didn't have any here. 

It is now 2005 and every day Canadians lose their rights,   you feel that I should not have the right to express my opinion, but you feel I should let you ram yours down my throat. As far as religion goes, well believe what you will, but here in Canada the Catholic Church let young children fall victim to some dirty old priest, not much difference between them and those other religions you put down. Please I HAD a Catholic back ground , so I know just how evil it can be.

As far as not liking what I post, ignor me like the cowboy.


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## Rebel_RN (11 Jul 2005)

Where do you get off trying to say that no-one died for your freedom of speech?, how can you possibly spout such utter nonsense and what's worse, believe what you are saying?. Step back for a moment and truly look at what you are saying, better yet give your head a shake and try to place those marbles.....Yes people have died for your freedoms that you enjoy today, and as Wes said it wasn't all that long ago, the freedom's that we all enjoy today came at a price, they didn't just fall out of the sky and land on our doorsteps. I'm not even going to touch the no white people comment......and as for the cathoilic comment what exaclty does that have to do with free speech?.... 

Rebel


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## Roy Harding (11 Jul 2005)

Wayne Coady said:
			
		

> Please, no one die to protect my freedom of speech here in Canada, we were never under attack, those who died  oversees, died protection the citizens of those countries, only to come home to a country that turned its back on many of them.
> 
> We never just sent white men to fight in the First or Sevond World war, we sent Blacks and Native, then look at how we treated them when they came home. Funny isn't it, we sent our Native and Black boys over there to protect someone elses rights, only to return to learn that they didn't have any here.
> 
> ...



You'd better check your audience (not to mention your "facts").

For someone who has political aspirations (as an Independent), you're not showing the greatest competence at winning friends and influencing people.

As far as your advice about ignoring you, I think I'll take it.


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## Wayne Coady (11 Jul 2005)

Well my father died in Holland, protection and liberating the Dutch, he never died in Canada defending our country, that is fact. My uncle returned to Canada in 42, and up until his death never received a worthy pension for fighting in the Second World War. 
Another relative was in the merchant marine navy, dead before he was recognized as a major contributor to the Second World War, which was fought in another far away land. 

I as an injured worker here in Canada, have no rights and it was not a Germay or who ever that took them away, so do not talk to me about some one dieing in another county because they were protecting my right, get real please. 
Most who came home from the Gulf war are dying from an illness they contracted because of chemicals or what ever used in that war and this Country couldn't give a dam. I was in the Royal Canadian Dragoons, went through Base Gagetown and in 66,67 and 68, they sprayed us with what they call the Rainbow Chemicals, Agent Orange, White and Purple, never asks us, never told us and here I am learning about it 40 years later. So those of us who were used as human guinea pigs for the American War in Vietnam, never had any rights then did we.  Facts are facts my friend.....or would you like to bury the facts and shut me up too ? 
 So in order to run in politics one must bury the truth, is that what you are saying?


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## Rebel_RN (11 Jul 2005)

I don't think that anyone is saying that you must bury the truth to run in politics, just recognize it, something I fear that you have failled to do. You seem to be very dis-illusioned about your freedoms and how they were won.


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## Fishbone Jones (11 Jul 2005)

Retired CC said:
			
		

> As far as your advice about ignoring you, I think I'll take it.



As are many others here. Sorry Wayne, but your incessant ranting has gotten very tiresome for many here and on other political threads. This is primarily a military forum, and we expect our members to participate throughout, not just pound their personal soapbox within the political thread. Can we make you post in other subjects? No we can't. Can we ignore you and quit responding to your constant raving. Yes we can. I won't ask you to change your ways, that's up to you, but don't expect much more tolerance from the members, you've about worn that down. My $00.02.

Audax et Celer


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## Wayne Coady (11 Jul 2005)

So what you are saying is it is not wise for me to speak out against our political system and that as a soldier in the Canadian Army, I should be pleased that I was used as a guniea pig and that our "government" had the right to do this? 

That it is all right to slam someone who has expressed himself? You see I am tired of people saying we have bad "government", this is not so, we have corrupt political parties running  "government" and some people do not like to hear that, but would like for me to be supportive of their party thing and when I am not, they cannot deal with it. 

I do not believe that my father die protecting my rights, I do believe the George Bushes grandfather in the second world war made a lot of money fueling the German army as is Dick Chaney making big money in Iraq, while young American kids die.


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## Edward Campbell (11 Jul 2005)

Wayne Coady said:
			
		

> So what you are saying is it is not wise for me to speak out against our political system ...



You did; over and over again.  We have read what you have to say; some agree, some don't.  Now, over the past few days, you are just being overly repetitive â â€œ we all do that, to some extent, I guess, but not the same thing, day-in, day-out.  I think that the impact of your ideas is diminished by over-exposure.  People just tune you out, skip over everything you post, regardless of the merits of your position.


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## Wayne Coady (11 Jul 2005)

So then when a person post on here they can only say what they feel once and then they must cut and run, I saw know evidence of that in other form posts. Most people pick their topic and it seems even if they are repetitive, the topic is debated, my goodness I say one post on there with over 500 posts, would one consider that a repetitive post?


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## Gramps (11 Jul 2005)

Wayne Coady.....Maybe you think the Canadian and American troops did not die to protect your freedoms but to protect someone else's and thats fine. From what I understand and believe (I'm sure I am not alone here either) those who fought were essentially fighting for everyones rights, do you think that WWII would have stopped once the British Isles or Russia were taken? Would they not have been within striking distance of North America had Russia fallen? So, from what I believe they were fighting for a much larger objective than your own personal rights and freedoms. That being said, it really is not the issue here, the issue is a series of ignorant Anti-Semitic statements that were made in public not your vast experience in the CF, not the fact that you may have been exposed to some chemical agents and certainly not your own political agenda but thats just my opinion. Cheers.


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## Wayne Coady (11 Jul 2005)

WW11 would have stopped if the Americans would have cut off their (German)fuel supply, lets face it Germany was  getting the bulk of their fuel thanks to  Prescott Bush. America's economic base  was founded on the toys of war. George Bushes grand dad Prescott Bush,financed the Germays through Browns Bank, where he was well planted and where he benefited at the cost of his fallen fellow Americians who were what, protecting Old Grand Daddy Bushes rights.

We have a major Barite mine here in Walton Nova Scotia, which Bushes Grand Daddy owned and he used to help control the barite industry, which we all know now belongs to Dick Chaney's company Haliburton, no my friend the second world war could have been brought to a very quick end, but the Bush family were very busy making money off of it.

While old man Bush was financing Hitler and making sure he got his airplane fuel and tank fuel, his son young George was fighting from the air. This is not my story it has been recorded as part of American History. Please do not take me as an American basher, because I am not. In general the American citizen is a wonderful person.


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## Gramps (11 Jul 2005)

My point was, what does this have to do with the statements made by Ahenakew? How does it go from him to WWII, to George Bush, to Agent Orange in Gagetown?


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## Roy Harding (11 Jul 2005)

Gramps said:
			
		

> My point was, what does this have to do with the statements made by Ahenakew? How does it go from him to WWII, to George Bush, to Agent Orange in Gagetown?



Gramps;

Don't waste your time - he has a one track mind.  OK - two tracks - the Bush's have been in a conspiracy for at LEAST the past three generations, and all political parties are in a conspiracy to rob him of his rights.


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## Fishbone Jones (11 Jul 2005)

Wayne Coady said:
			
		

> So what you are saying is it is not wise for me to speak out against our political system and that as a soldier in the Canadian Army, I should be pleased that I was used as a guniea pig and that our "government" had the right to do this?



That is not what I alluded to. Many people here have spoken out against "the system", but we don't try to pound that nail through the linoleum, past the sub floor and through the joist till it falls on the basement floor. If you want to rant on the same subject every day, 24 hrs a day, why don't you start your own blog? We're not here, as your sounding board, so you can take out your frustations about the government and it's dealings. I get the feeling you may be just trying to transfer your anger. Most people here are able to state their point and leave it go, you can't..........and it's getting very tiresome.

If you've got issues about the Agent Orange, there's a thread for that. However, I think you'd be better served at sites specific to that cause. Also VA and other gov't sites. At least they can help, if you have a verifiable claim. WE can't.



			
				Wayne Coady said:
			
		

> So then when a person post on here they can only say what they feel once and then they must cut and run, I saw know evidence of that in other form posts. Most people pick their topic and it seems even if they are repetitive, the topic is debated, my goodness I say one post on there with over 500 posts, would one consider that a repetitive post?



See my first paragraph. In short Wayne, you've worn us out. You've gone from excellent first posts with solid ideas and debate to the rantings of a bitter old man.

Like I said earlier, just my $00.02, but I know I'm not in the minority. Go have a cold one and give it a rest for awhile.


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## Wayne Coady (11 Jul 2005)

Ahenakew's remarks were called into question based on a law which is now considered a hate crime, and yet we in Canada talk about how self righteous   society we are. Well Mr. Ahenakew who is a native Canadian has felt the wrath of hate, and there are those who still say hateful thing about our native population, but where is there proof of action being taken against those people? 
What we have here is a Hate Law that caters to a select group of people, while the rest of us "Canadians" have to take what ever "government" shoves at us. 

A lost of a freedom is the same as a loss of a live, once it is gone, it is gone and the Ahenakew case is just one more example of a special interest group silencing citizens. It is my opinion that it is very wrong to shackle people in this way. The war is well over and it is time all have moved on,   but then again we have an awful mess in Israel today don't we, one would think that if history sets a president, then things would be much better there. So, who learned what from those who lost their life in that war, by the looks of the stste this world is in today, no one. It is still an eye for an eye and one day we will all wake up blind, then what, who wins?


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## Teddy Ruxpin (11 Jul 2005)

Retired CC said:
			
		

> Gramps;
> 
> Don't waste your time - he has a one track mind.   OK - two tracks - the Bush's have been in a conspiracy for at LEAST the past three generations, and all political parties are in a conspiracy to rob him of his rights.



Perhaps a quick trip here:  http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html

Tinfoil hats appear to be very stylish around here lately... Since making mine, the CIA has stopped controlling my left arm... :


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## Wayne Coady (11 Jul 2005)

recceguy said:
			
		

> See my first paragraph. In short Wayne, you've worn us out. You've gone from excellent first posts with solid ideas and debate to the rantings of a bitter old man.
> 
> Like I said earlier, just my $00.02, but I know I'm not in the minority. Go have a cold one and give it a rest for awhile.


So now I am a bitter old man, how interesting, I guess this is where you go when you are lost for a real debate, sounding more like a party loyalists. My points are no different than those who do not agree with me, they state their position and I state mine, so who is beating the dead drum, me or them ? I guess you have concluded me. Now that just how a political party rules, if they do not like what you are saying and it goes 
against their belief, then you out or they   just name call or try to degrade the person.

Teddy Ruxpin: Do not feel slighted I guess I am taking your place.


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## Roy Harding (11 Jul 2005)

Teddy Ruxpin:

OUTSTANDING link!!

People here at work couldn't figure out why I was laughing out loud!! (I'm usually referred to as a Grumpy Old Man)!!

Thanks for lightening my day.


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## Fishbone Jones (11 Jul 2005)

Wayne Coady said:
			
		

> So now I am a bitter old man, how interesting, I guess this is where you go when you are lost for a real debate, sounding more like a party loyalists. My points are no different than those who do not agree with me, they state their position and I state mine, so who is beating the dead drum, me or them ? I guess you have concluded me. Now that just how a political party rules, if they do not like what you are saying and it goes
> against their belief, then you out or they   just name call or try to degrade the person.
> 
> Teddy Ruxpin: Do not feel slighted I guess I am taking your place.



I'm sure TR isn't feeling slighted. Until you can keep your posts succinct and to the point without belabouring them and the world, you'll not be replacing him anytime soon. 

:boring::boring:

Enough, let's try get this back on track, and stick to the original topic.


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## Wayne Coady (11 Jul 2005)

Nasty little guy aren't you. But then again, if your willing to just complain about something for the sake of complaining what else can one expect ?


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## Fishbone Jones (11 Jul 2005)

Pot... this is kettle... over.   Go to PM if you wish, but don't expect to belabour it there either.


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## Wayne Coady (11 Jul 2005)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Pot... this is kettle... over.



We should try to get back on track, I sure the poster didn't want the form to go in this direction, after all they did put much though into it. " There is no freedom of Speech in Canada Anymore  was the question, so why isn't their freedom of speech?


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## 2 Cdo (11 Jul 2005)

Wayne, earlier in another post you sent me a PM thanking me for supporting your argument about something. Fast forward to the present and you definitely sound like a broken record! Your posts come off as someone who has a lot of bitterness in him and who will not tolerate any dissenting posts towards him. I do agree with the idea of LESS government as I think people should be held more accountable for their actions and statements. But to think that a comment calling for a race of people to be exterminated is okay is complete and utter b*llshit!
If you are honestly thinking about running for any type of public office you might want to tone the rhetoric down a notch or two. Ranting(yes, ranting) about the present government is only going to get you labelled as an EXTREMIST whether you are or not. Well thought out positions without screaming conspiracy every two seconds will help you more in the long run.


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## Gramps (11 Jul 2005)

This post is directed at Mr. Wayne Coady.
Here are a few links that may or may not shed some light on hate crimes in Canada. I will submit to you that the vast majority of hate crimes and charges related to hate are primarily committed by white christian males. Just because this man in question is native and there is a tremendous amount of racism and hatred towards natives it does not give him the right to be one himself (a racist or Anti-Semite that is). Try to find the book "Web of Hate" by Warren Kinsella it is a study on hate groups in Canada and is one of the most informative and frightening books I have read. Some of the Stats. from the below links may be a little out of date but the vast majority of the information contained within them is still relavent.


http://www.adl.org/learn/Ext_US/zundel.asp?xpicked=2&item=zundel
http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/040601/d040601a.htm
http://www.media-awareness.ca/english/resources/research_documents/statistics/internet/hate_crimes_canada.cfm
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/hatecrimes/


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## Bruce Monkhouse (11 Jul 2005)

Well, heres a shock, 2CDO and I agree on something!!!!
I also thought his first few posts were well thought out however, now.......oh boy! :-X
Quote,
_Well my father died in Holland, protection and liberating the Dutch, he never died in Canada defending our country, that is fact._

...and if he was the same kind of man my father was, he knew exactly what the stakes were and why he was going, and would be turning in his grave listening to you down play his [their] accomplishments so that we can enjoy our freedom today.....and that freedom includes protections against those who wish to cast their hate unto others to diminish their freedoms.


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## Wayne Coady (11 Jul 2005)

Well I guess you are entitled to your opinion, but according to my mother in some of my fathers letters to her, he was wondering what he  was doing there. He made it clear that he and many other joined mainly because of NO Employment here in Canada. 

His thinking is being reflected in the voices of those young Americans who joined so they could get into College and now are ASKING THEMSELVES, WHY THEY EVER WENT TO IRAQ. They are starting to realize that they are not there to free the people, but to protect the oil fields. 

There are those of us who understand how "government" works and for whom it works. I stand behind my belief and opinion that my father died protecting citizens in a far off land and that he did not die defending my rights or anyone's rights. Like I said , everyday a Canadian living in Canada loses a right and it is all because the "governing party " of the days chooses to do draft a law that makes it possible, one mans loss is another parties gain.


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## Gramps (11 Jul 2005)

Who lost their rights here??  Nobody did. If one goes around spewing out hateful crap then they must be held accountable for it. There is no law that states he couldnt have said that he doesnt like a specific race or religion but, there are laws about stating that entire races should be wiped out.


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## Rebel_RN (11 Jul 2005)

Please MR. Wayne Coady get off of your soap box long enough to analyze logically what you are trying to defend. In what way is it OK for someone to announce that they feel an entire race should be wiped from the face of the earth?. The answer is simple it isn't!. If you are willing to deny to yourself what has actually been done to reprimand this individual versus what you feel is being done then that's fine by me...freedom of speech and all that...but for you to continually bring this to a corrupt government platform is not only tiring but monotonous as well and it has no bearing on the thread at hand.


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## RCA (11 Jul 2005)

Again you have missed the point. The Charter states:



> 1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such *reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society*.



If you think its reasonable to say the Jews area disease, then you have greater problems then the "Party" conspsiracy.

 If you want to spew venom in private, thats your business, fine. Do it publicly, pay the consequences no matter if your black, white red, or orange. Its a simple as that. There is no hypocrisy here. It has nothing to do with politics or political parties. It has do do with common decency within this society. If the same thing was said against Natives, or Muslims, etc then the same will apply.


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## 1feral1 (11 Jul 2005)

OK enough is enough! Wayne the communist party is always wanting new members, secondly I find your posts are becoming troll mentality, and if you want to go on about how our minoritys fought our wars and whitey did nothing, go troll another site as your welcome here is coming to an end.

Pull your head in or PISS off, as you are beginning to be a SERIAL PEST on here. 

About war casualties, 267104 PTE RF Allen, my Great Uncle, late of the 28th Bn CEF is buried near Passchendaele, and was one of the 60,000 CANADIANS left in both marked and unmarked graves in Europe from the Great War. Singling out distinct racial groups killed (and blaming the white population for who knows what) is just not on, and is a cop out, removing the general respect for ALL Canadian war dead.

Your profile is pretty much empty and I am really beginning to question your former CF service, and you are losing your credibility and respect on here real fast.   Every time you open your gob out comes political 'der commisar' bullshit. Either clean up your act or move on.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (11 Jul 2005)

Mr Coady,
Suffice to say your aspirations to enter politics are probably a bad idea.
Even those here that agree with your politics wouldn't vote for you after the third day.......


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## Roy Harding (11 Jul 2005)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Mr Coady,
> Suffice to say your aspirations to enter politics are probably a bad idea.
> Even those here that agree with your politics wouldn't vote for you after the third day.......



Bruce:

I took a moment to Google "Wayne Coady".  Many, many, hits - I didn't bother reading any of them, but suffice to say, they were mostly rants of the type we have come to expect from Mr. Coady.

Interesting to note, according to the headlines (again - I did NOT go any deeper than the Google results page) Mr. Coady has already run as an Independent in 2003 - apparently he wasn't successful.


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## muskrat89 (11 Jul 2005)

This thread has been struggling since the first post. I think it is time for me to exercise my "Freedom to Lock", thereby crushing everyone's "Freedom to Type" - well, in this thread at least....

If someone wants to open another thread on Freedom of Speech, have at er...


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## 17thRecceSgt (8 Jun 2006)

You be the judge...thoughts anyone? 

http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060608/david_ahenakew_060608

Ahenakew's hate crime conviction overturned 
CTV.ca News Staff

David Ahenakew, former head of the Assembly of First Nations, had his hate crime conviction overturned Thursday by a Saskatchewan judge.

Chief Justice Robert Laing ruled that Ahenakew did not have the necessary intent needed for a conviction, and ordered a new trial. 

Ahenakew was convicted of promoting hatred and fined $1,000, after he called Jews a "disease" during a conversation with a Saskatoon StarPhoenix reporter in December 2002.

Because of that conviction, former governor general Adrienne Clarkson revoked Ahenakew's Order of Canada membership, granted in 1978 for his work on native issues.

"We understand that revocation will stand regardless of (Friday's) decision," CTV's Jill Macyshon told Newsnet from Winnipeg.

Doug Christie, Ahenakew's lawyer, argued his client's comments were spontaneous and isolated, despite the fact he was speaking to a journalist.

He said that the section of the Criminal Code under which Ahenakew was convicted applies only to hate spoken "other than in private conversation," and that the taped one-on-one interview with the reporter meets that exception.

Ahenakew testified that he felt confronted and didn't see the tape recorder the reporter was using.

But the reporter, James Parker, had testified he held the tape recorder right in front of Ahenakew's face.

The Canadian Jewish Congress had argued that Christie's position threatened the integrity of Canada's hate laws.

"The anti-hate laws are extremely important for minority communities that are targeted and vulnerable, and Canada would not remain a multicultural democracy for very long if segments of its society could be attacked and vilified with impunity," executive vice-president Manuel Prutschi said in April.

"To be called a disease is obscene and of course when something is a disease you are supposed to cure the body ... from that disease."

Before Ahenakew spoke to the reporter, he delivered a speech at a Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations conference, in which he accused Jews of starting the Second World War.

"The Jews damn near owned all of Germany prior to the war. That's how Hitler came in. He was going to make damn sure that the Jews didn't take over Germany or Europe," Ahenakew said on the tape.

"That's why he fried six million of those guys, you know. Jews would have owned the God-damned world. And look what they're doing. They're killing people in Arab countries."

With files from The Canadian Press


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## Edward Campbell (8 Jun 2006)

Look, we all know what sort of person David Ahenakew is; his own words gave us all we needed to judge his views.

But, look on the bright side: he is now qualified for membership in CUPE.

Seriously: this is the right _judicial_ decision.  I oppose hate crime laws; I agree that words can incite violence but we already have, I think, laws to punish that sort of thing.  I think revoking his membership in the Order of Canada was highly appropriate and I think keeping a media spotlight on his odious views is equally appropriate.  Ridicule and humiliation are stronger weapons than our hate crime laws.


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## Infanteer (8 Jun 2006)

Edward Campbell said:
			
		

> Seriously: this is the right _judicial_ decision.  I oppose hate crime laws; I agree that words can incite violence but we already have, I think, laws to punish that sort of thing.  I think revoking his membership in the Order of Canada was highly appropriate and I think keeping a media spotlight on his odious views is equally appropriate.  Ridicule and humiliation are stronger weapons than our hate crime laws.



+1


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## Michael Dorosh (8 Jun 2006)

Piper said:
			
		

> If it had been a white guy saying it, he'd have been drawn and quartered in the media and left to rot in prison.



Name a white guy who has been drawn and quartered and sent to rot in prison. More racist crap as far as I am concerned, this forum is getting rife with it. Look at it judiciously, as Edward has and stop posting every knee-jerk little thing that pops into your brain. The judge considered the merits of the case and made a ruling. I see no evidence that white men have been "fried" for saying similar things in similar circumstances. If you are referring to Zundel and his ilk, I suspect there is a wide gulf between offhand comments and institutionalized race hatred.


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## paracowboy (8 Jun 2006)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Name a white guy who has been drawn and quartered and sent to rot in prison. More racist crap as far as I am concerned, this forum is getting rife with it. Look at it judiciously, as Edward has and stop posting every knee-jerk little thing that pops into your brain. The judge considered the merits of the case and made a ruling. I see no evidence that white men have been "fried" for saying similar things in similar circumstances. If you are referring to Zundel and his ilk, I suspect there is a wide gulf between offhand comments and institutionalized race hatred.


stuff it. As a member of a minority, I have yet to be offended by "racism" on these boards. Save your White Man's Burden-Liberal guilt for somewhere else. THAT offends me.


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## Cdn Blackshirt (8 Jun 2006)

Michael, 

Would you contend that aboriginal protestors in Caledonia are being treated the same as would white protestors doing the same things?


Matthew.


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## 17thRecceSgt (9 Jun 2006)

Okay let me throw this bone out...a white English person makes the SAME and EQUAL comments about this David Ahenakew creature...he is a disease...his people should be fried and stuff like that...

Can anyone tell me this is an acceptable ruling and really really mean it?  No apparant double-standards here?


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## 17thRecceSgt (9 Jun 2006)

Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> Michael,
> 
> Would you contend that aboriginal protestors in Caledonia are being treated the same as would white protestors doing the same things?
> 
> ...



and therein is the double-standard...and...the problem.


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## Michael Dorosh (9 Jun 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> Okay let me throw this bone out...a white English person makes the SAME and EQUAL comments about this David Ahenakew creature...he is a disease...his people should be fried and stuff like that...
> 
> Can anyone tell me this is an acceptable ruling and really really mean it?  No apparant double-standards here?



It's all in the article you posted. 

We have the right to express an opinion no matter how twisted it is. There is a difference between standing up in front of classroom and spouting his garbage, and expressing those views privately, or in this case, to a reporter. He gets an award for stupidity, but he wasn't "preaching race-hatred" like Julius Streicher or something. 

I think Edward's point was that there are better ways to handle it than racism laws, and he did receive an appropriate punishment via the loss of the Order of Canada and now continued public scrutiny.

I'm willing to believe there is a judicial double standard, if you can present a similar case for examination. Otherwise, despite what paracowboy might think, then comments about "Indians getting off easy" are unfounded and inherently racist, if that is the argument. Or is the argument that caucasians couldn't make the same comments about aboriginals without being punished more severely? Okay, state your case by providing an example. We can throw generalizations back and forth til the cows come home.


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## George Wallace (9 Jun 2006)

Actually?  What is he getting away with?  





> Chief Justice Robert Laing ruled that Ahenakew did not have the necessary intent needed for a conviction, and ordered a new trial.



He is slated for another trial.


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## Michael Dorosh (9 Jun 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> and therein is the double-standard...and...the problem.



I don't know of any white protestors that have protested land claims. And I'm not trying to be clever, but if we're going to discuss this, let's discuss this on the merits of specific facts. I know of no situation in which caucasians in Canada would protest ancient lands. So if the argument is that the Natives are being treated differently, well, of course they are, they occupy a unique position in Confederation. Should we treat them with kid gloves? Personally, I think it is probably time to take the gloves off. But I wouldn't want to be the one to make that decision either.

You really don't see why the protestors in Caledonia might be different than, say, your G8 protestors?


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## Michael Dorosh (9 Jun 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Actually?  What is he getting away with?
> He is slated for another trial.



+1  ;D

(I'm getting the hang of this).

Not being smug, but these arguments do tend to live or die based on the actual facts rather than generalities.


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## 17thRecceSgt (9 Jun 2006)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> I don't know of any white protestors that have protested land claims. And I'm not trying to be clever, but if we're going to discuss this, let's discuss this on the merits of specific facts. I know of no situation in which caucasians in Canada would protest ancient lands. So if the argument is that the Natives are being treated differently, well, of course they are, they occupy a unique position in Confederation. Should we treat them with kid gloves? Personally, I think it is probably time to take the gloves off. But I wouldn't want to be the one to make that decision either.
> 
> You really don't see why the protestors in Caledonia might be different than, say, your G8 protestors?



I guess, personally, I am thinking more of the "actions" they are taking, vice their "cause".

From here in Halifax, I only get to see what the media cough cough puts on the news perhaps...but...setting things on fire...denying citizens access to roads, barricading yourself on land that is "legally" owned by someone else...

Like I said, the "causes" of the group (any group) is not a concern to me so much as the actions they may or have taken.  Such as...throwing a temper-tantrum when you get some of your own medicine, digging up the road and dragging power grid infrastructure down with your truck.

*Edit - damn I just went off topic in my own topic (slap).

I guess the original question is the intent of the thread...are our laws applied to one (even close to being) standard to all citizens of Canada?


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## Michael Dorosh (9 Jun 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> I guess, personally, I am thinking more of the "actions" they are taking, vice their "cause".
> 
> From here in Halifax, I only get to see what the media cough cough puts on the news perhaps...but...setting things on fire...denying citizens access to roads, barricading yourself on land that is "legally" owned by someone else...
> 
> Like I said, the "causes" of the group (any group) is not a concern to me so much as the actions they may or have taken.  Such as...throwing a temper-tantrum when you get some of your own medicine, digging up the road and dragging power grid infrastructure down with your truck.



From your perspective then, I can see your frustration. They're commiting illegal acts and apparently getting away with it. If you or I went out and did the same thing, chances are we would be treated differently. I can think of an example now - the "celebrations" on Whyte Avenue in Edmonton. Lots of pasty white folks creating a ruckus and getting theirs asses hauled off to jail.

I think you do have to go deeper than just the actions though, and once you get yourself into the whole issue of land claims which may even be legitimate...paracowboy can write it off as Liberal guilt or whatever he wants, but if we're going to do things judiciously, then let's do them. The trouble is its all murky and whatever is done, sets a precedent for other cases, other land claims, other groups. 

On the face of it, yeah, of course it looks like they're getting away with stuff. I mean, they are. If you get my meaning?

EDIT - so to answer your edit - the laws don't apply to all Canadians equally because the laws are different. The treaties and unique status of the Natives ensure that. Immigrants are another case; they can be deported. Those of us born here can't. The laws have to be different. I personally would prefer a system that allows for individual tolerance and interpretations of the law. The other end of the spectrum is pretty terrible to contemplate, IMO.


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## Cdn Blackshirt (9 Jun 2006)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> It's all in the article you posted.
> 
> We have the right to express an opinion no matter how twisted it is. There is a difference between standing up in front of classroom and spouting his garbage, and expressing those views privately, or in this case, to a reporter. He gets an award for stupidity, but he wasn't "preaching race-hatred" like Julius Streicher or something.
> 
> ...



As requested Michael:



> http://torontosun.com/News/TorontoAndGTA/2006/06/02/1610947-sun.html
> What the Jury wasn't told
> By SAM PAZZANO, COURTS BUREAU
> 
> ...



....of note, Linklater was found guilty.




> http://www.therecord.com/links/links_06060211027.html
> Law no longer rules in Caledonia
> A group of native protesters has been flouting the law for more than two months and government just watches
> Friday June 2, 2006
> ...


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## Michael Dorosh (9 Jun 2006)

That's more like it.


> For the assault on his girlfriend, Linklater was given a six-month sentence to be served in the community, mainly, the judge noted, because he's an aboriginal and his lengthy record is mostly for property offences. He was also banned from drinking or having a weapon.
> 
> Justice Harry LaForme, who is a Mississauga Indian and a highly regarded judge who was later promoted to the Court of Appeal, decided "to remedy the crises of drastic over-representation of aboriginal people in our penal institutions."



I recall hearing about this on talk radio. I wasn't aware the judge was also a native. This is obviously troubling. I'm not sure I understand how applying the law unevenly is a decent solution for "over-representation of aboriginal people" in prisons. In fact, the whole concept of over-representation is faulty. If all the aboriginals in prison are indeed guilty, then they are adequately represented. Their numbers in proportion to others should be irrelevant. I think we all agree that justice should not be based on demographics.

I wonder about what the article doesn't say - it seems fantastic to think that a judge would consider the solution to over-representation of aboriginals in prison to be simply not sending them there. : Did he have any other plan for this person's rehabilitation/punishment other than just not sending him to jail?


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## Cdn Blackshirt (9 Jun 2006)

It was on TV as well.  In the segment I watched (I think it was CBC or CTV Newsnet) they talked about the knife attack on the previous girlfriend and then excerpted the judge's sentence and it was just stupifying that the judge believed that simply by releasing Linklater to go back to the reserve for aboriginal counciling and healing, that would solve everything.  The bottom line in the excerpt was that since Aboriginals were overrepresented in jails, he should just be let go.  In addition, the judge did not put in place any oversight or reporting conditions so Linklater never actually stayed in the community and immediately returned to Toronto where he then killed Miss Ivancicevic.

In short, this was a double-standard that got an innocent woman killed....


Matthew.


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## Michael Dorosh (9 Jun 2006)

Thanks for posting those; I gratefully stand corrected. I hope that the obvious double standard in this case is not as pervasive as might be othewise suggested.  I really do think as I stated earlier that there is a call for double standards in certain situations - ie land claims, at least as we have chosen to pursue those matters to the present. 

This case warrants some disbelief - especially if this is simply a case of one native looking out for another based on their race. I don't imagine the judge has had anything to say to attempt to exonerate himself? I'd like to know if his job is in serious jeopardy as a result, and if not, why not.


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## Bobbyoreo (9 Jun 2006)

If you cant see the double standard, yours eyes ain't open!


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## Michael Dorosh (9 Jun 2006)

Bobbyoreo said:
			
		

> If you cant see the double standard, yours eyes ain't open!



And if you can't see, in general terms, the imperative to treat different people differently under the law, then I would humbly submit that neither are yours. Or put a better way, our eyes may be open, but not all that can be viewed is out in the open to be seen.


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## 1feral1 (9 Jun 2006)

Double standard here, bigtime!

Based on what, and why?

You tell me!

At the end of the day, I can safely say that Ahenekew is an embarrasment to Canada and to his native heritage. That judge should be ashamed. This is a classic example of what a joke our justice system is, and those who run it.

I am sure many Canadians have been 'put off' by his comments regardless of their race or religion.

Opinions are like ring pieces, and being a public figure, he should keep his personal ones to himself should he feel that way inclined about the death of over 6 million human beings.

Simply put, he should have known better.

And to think about 45,000 Canadians (including our first nations men) gave their lives fighting Hitler and his ideals, and to stop such carnage from reaching our shores. If Germany would have won the war, where would his own people be right now? You don't gotta be a rocket scientist to figure that out, do ya! 


My two cents anyways.

Wes


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## Bobbyoreo (9 Jun 2006)

No I'm good. I realise that some people need to be treated differently but when it comes to laws and how we talk in public  about different races and backgrounds I think we all stand on the same ground.


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## 17thRecceSgt (9 Jun 2006)

Or we SHOULD all stand on the same ground.  I am not sure this is the case WRT the case in this post, and I am not sure why, but this may be a bad precedant to make.  IMHO.

Mud


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## Cdn Blackshirt (9 Jun 2006)

Wow....and as if on cue. 

There was just two CHCH Channel 11 (Hamilton) cameramen assaulted by native protestors this afternoon at a Canadian Tire....and the OPP stood there and did nothing while they bloodied one, and stole the camera and tripod of the other.

They have grainy video of the attack, there were residents who are now calling in and they're seriously pissed.



Matthew.


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## 17thRecceSgt (9 Jun 2006)

Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> Wow....and as if on cue.
> 
> There was just two CHCH Channel 11 (Hamilton) cameramen assaulted by native protestors this afternoon at a Canadian Tire....and the OPP stood there and did nothing while they bloodied one, and stole the camera and tripod of the other.
> 
> ...



The fact that they assaulted them is one thing.  Disturbing.  But...are you serious, the OPP just stood there???????????  wtf?  I find that MORE disturbing!


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## Hot Lips (9 Jun 2006)

See IMO the law is only as strong as those who enforce it...and those individuals are human...remember to err is human...doesn't mean these two gentlemen ought to have been assaulted though...

Nevertheless...I would agree for many reasons that the laws are not applied equally in this country...but if you look at our social system there are examples that will come screaming at you with regards to inequality...

HL


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## 2 Cdo (9 Jun 2006)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> And if you can't see, in general terms, the imperative to treat different people differently under the law, then I would humbly submit that neither are yours. Or put a better way, our eyes may be open, but not all that can be viewed is out in the open to be seen.



If people in Canada were truly equal, not more or less equal, then the laws could and should be applied evenly without regard to race, religion etc! To suggest that we treat natives differently, all you are doing is perpetuating discrimination! Nice try though.


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## 17thRecceSgt (9 Jun 2006)

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> If people in Canada were truly equal, not more or less equal, then the laws could and should be applied evenly without regard to race, religion etc! To suggest that we treat natives differently, all you are doing is perpetuating discrimination! Nice try though.



So the same could be said to "any" "special group".

Cause I think ALL Canadians are special.  Just not all the same.  Make sense?

Equal treatment around the table!  (except...criminals...terrorists...thugs...rapists...and the lot)


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## paracowboy (9 Jun 2006)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> And if you can't see, in general terms, the imperative to treat different people differently under the law, then I would humbly submit that neither are yours. Or put a better way, our eyes may be open, but not all that can be viewed is out in the open to be seen.


but, to differentiate based on race or skin colour, whether positively or negatively, is pure racist crap. To give Indians more, or less, "Rights" simply because they were born Indians is racism. The treaties are garbage, and no longer relevent. All they do is perpetuate problems created in a less-enlightened time. Having spent most of my youth on/near Reservations, that's straight from the horse's mouth.

Either everyone is equal under the Law, or no one is. And if everyone is 'special', nobody is. This Liberal guilt-white man's burden crap that we tout as "equality" and "tolerance" is simply making things worse.


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## 1feral1 (9 Jun 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> but, to differentiate based on race or skin colour, whether positively or negatively, is pure racist crap. To give Indians more, or less, "Rights" simply because they were born Indians is racism. The treaties are garbage, and no longer relevent. All they do is perpetuate problems created in a less-enlightened time. Having spent most of my youth on/near Reservations, that's straight from the horse's mouth.
> 
> Either everyone is equal under the Law, or no one is. And if everyone is 'special', nobody is. This Liberal guilt-white man's burden crap that we tout as "equality" and "tolerance" is simply making things worse.



Interesting topic, and I will sit on the fence on this one, as I beleive we are all equals and NO one should get special treatment outside the treatys from the 19th century. Have any of you checked the enterance criteria to enter the RCMP for example? native vs others. There is a difference regarding the education standard and other things, or at least there was in 2000.

Anyone care to comment on that?

Do you think that is fair?

Over my years in the CF, I have worked in harmony along side many native blokes who were Cree, Saulteax, and Sioux, plus others. The army only has one colour, thats green, and I liked that, no special treatment, although some may beg to differ with the Bold Eagle training of the 80's and early 90's held in Dundurn during the summers. I don't know if that scheme is still running.

The programs gave some identity to the native platoons, and was good for esprit du corps and overall moral. SIVA was involved along with cultural awareness, which gave European instructors a new prospective, and helped understand each other's cultures within our own country.

I thought it was a good plan.


Regards from a winters day here on Bribie Island,

Wes


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## paracowboy (9 Jun 2006)

Wesley "Down Under" said:
			
		

> Do you think that is fair?


no. Vehemently NO!



> The army only has one colour, thats green, and I liked that, no special treatment.


I like that, too. 

Although we did differentiate once. This won't be funny for anyone who didn't know this kid, but for those who do, it's hilarious:
We had in Inuit lad from somewhere North of the Arctic Circle in 3RCR. Had no concept of time. You sleep when you're tired, and eat when you're hungry. That's it. Poor bugger spent almost his entire first year on extras or charge parade. Finally, the CoC had enough. The kid couldn't grasp time. It just didn't make sense to him. So, he kinda went his own way for the remainder of his IE. When he was inevitably late, or missing, he got bollocked and beasted, but he didn't get anything serious. It wasn't even enfuriating anymore, just kinda disheartening. He stopped being punished because it was like kicking a puppy that can't be housebroken. Cruel. Even his fellow privates didn't complain "discrimination". He just had a really tough time of it, and they tried to make it easier on the poor bugger. He finished his IE, and went home.  ;D


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## a_majoor (10 Jun 2006)

I recall a very weird conversation over some beers with British soldiers in Wainwright back in the 1980's. the Thatcher Revolution was in full swing, and this squaddie was very keen on the idea that the Iron Lady was going to clean up "the Spooks and Wogs" back home.

Since this was a gentleman of the black persuasion saying these things, I was a bit stunned (although I suppose most people would never notice  ), but in his eyes, everyone sitting aruond the table was _green_, which made everything fine as far a he was concerned.


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## Michael Dorosh (10 Jun 2006)

a_majoor said:
			
		

> I recall a very weird conversation over some beers with British soldiers in Wainwright back in the 1980's. the Thatcher Revolution was in full swing, and this squaddie was very keen on the idea that the Iron Lady was going to clean up "the Spooks and Wogs" back home.ed.



I recall drinking scotch with a black British Army WO I in the late 1980s at about 4 am in the mess at Suffield, talking about the popular hobby at that time of "throwing queers" out the 2nd story windows in the barracks once they had been outed. Times have certainly changed.


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## zipperhead_cop (10 Jun 2006)

I cannot believe that anyone is arguing that the law should be bent and unequally applied for anyone in this country.  You may end up hearing about an incident in Caledonia today, whereby a member of the Michigan State Police and an OPP officer were severely assaulted while trying to assist a couple being accosted by native criminals.  One was run over by a car being stolen by the natives.  
Enough.  
Natives have had a free run under the Lieberals for too many years.  Oka and Ipperwash were beyond unacceptable, and in a real world they would have been sorted out in a credible manner.  Now this Caledonia donkey show.  The OPP are standing by and "doing nothing" because that is what OPP Commissioner Gwen Bonniface wants.  Check out this article:

*OPP brass sacrificing safety: officers 
By Susan Clairmont
The Hamilton Spectator(Jun 8, 2006) 

OPP officers assigned to the native standoff in Caledonia say their bosses have put their public image ahead of officer safety and law and order.

Talking for the first time since the volatile land occupation began 100 days ago, the president of the Ontario Provincial Police Association says a meeting is being held tonight in Caledonia. So the association can hear concerns of officers who have been told not to wear riot gear or tactical uniforms when dealing with native protesters. Officers say they are being sent out without proper back-up and are left wondering if commanding officers and the courts will back them up when they try to enforce the law.

"Due to the political pressures and optics involved with this, the OPP seems to be bending their own rules, while sacrificing officer safety," Karl Walsh says. "Optics don't have any place on the front lines at Caledonia."

The OPP have had a fluctuating presence at the protest since natives began occupying a housing development they claim is being built on their land. At some points, only a single OPP officer was watching the natives from a parked cruiser. At other times, lines of officers have stood between natives and Caledonia residents, as tempers flared.

Front line officers feel they haven't had a strong enough presence at the barricades, and not having enough officers makes it dangerous on the front line.

The "deviation from the usual training and standards" of the OPP "has been an underlying concern from the get-go" in Caledonia, says Walsh.

So far, 13 officers have been injured while assigned to the stand-off.
Some of those injuries may have been avoided if officers had been allowed to follow the training, policies and procedures they have always abided by.

For instance, the highly-trained and heavily-armed members of the OPP tactical team have not been allowed to wear their tactical uniforms.

"It's OK to have an officer walking around in tactical uniform at Wasaga Beach on a long weekend, but it's not OK in Caledonia," Walsh says.

And the standard practice for OPP officers dealing with an unruly crowd -- as both the protesters and the townsfolk have sometimes been during the past months -- is to dress in "public order gear." That's the politically correct term for riot gear, consisting of helmets, visors and shields.

"But these officers were ordered not to wear them for optical purposes," according to Walsh. The OPP doesn't want to give the media, the protesters or the residents of Caledonia the impression "there's an increased level of aggressiveness" in what they consistently have called a "peaceful" operation.
In fact, that is Constable Paula Wright's response when asked to respond to the concerns raised by Walsh and front-line officers.

The Haldimand detachment media officer repeatedly says that "our role is to keep the peace and ensure public safety."

Wright would not talk about police gear or uniforms, saying those are "operational matters" that will not be discussed publicly because to do so could -- ironically -- jeopardize officer safety.

It has been a long 100 days for the OPP officers on the ground in Caledonia. Some, like those from the local detachments and members of the specially-trained OPP Aboriginal Response Team who were deployed as negotiators, have been there from the beginning.

Others are rotated in every seven days from across the province.

It was two of those officers, who having just arrived from out-of-town on Sunday, found their cruiser surrounded by angry natives that night after they mistakenly turned down the Sixth Line, a road that was a mutually agreed upon "no-go zone" for the OPP.

"They got surrounded and there were a lot of upset people at the time. It was a faction within the protest area that's determined not to deal with things in a rational manner. It was a simple mistake," says Walsh.

The officers apologized to the crowd of 40 people and said they would leave.

They weren't allowed to and the cruiser was damaged.

Six Nations Police officers arrived and, according to Walsh, issued trespassing tickets to the officers under The Indian Act. Six Nations Police could not be reached for comment.
There have been very few charges laid by the OPP against native protesters since this began. The charges they have laid have been largely ignored. Those arrested have refused to acknowledge the court system, saying it doesn't apply to them.

"That is a two-tiered justice system," Walsh says.

So -- does the Ontario Provincial Police have any power?

Are they going to be allowed to do their job and uphold the law?

Those questions are expected to come up at tonight's meeting.

Officers feel they are powerless and have, in some cases, been left to fend for themselves without the backing of the OPP or the judicial system.

Walsh won't say when or where tonight's meeting is taking place, because it is not open to the public. And Walsh himself won't be there.

Instead, he will be at a meeting of the Canadian Professional Police Officers Association in Ottawa, to which he is also bringing the Caledonia concerns. He hopes the national association will put pressure on Prime Minister Stephen Harper to step in and deal with the land occupation. He takes issue with comments Harper has made publicly that Caledonia is ultimately a provincial law enforcement issue.

"This is clearly a federal issue," counters Walsh. "Our officers are the ones who are stuck in the middle of this ... We want our officers back in their communities. We want them to go home to their families safe and sound."
*  

Just absolutely f%cking ridiculous.  I'm sorry.  I tolerate the no tax, the free university, the endless excuses for sub par behavior.  But this crap is going to get an officer killed.  The more shit they get away with, the more emboldened they will become.  Land claim my ass.  This is domestic terrorism pure and simple.  At such time as Canadians get sick of this sort of abuse of native privileges, I for one couldn't bring myself to argue against a proposal for the Indian Act being stricken in Parliament.


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## zipperhead_cop (10 Jun 2006)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> I recall drinking scotch with a black British Army WO I in the late 1980s at about 4 am in the mess at Suffield, talking about the popular hobby at that time of "throwing queers" out the 2nd story windows in the barracks once they had been outed. Times have certainly changed.



So did you land on your feet?  
http://www.ilovewavs.com/Effects/Music/RimShot.wav 



Oh, come on, you left that WIDE open.  Just in jest, no harm intended.   ;D


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## J.J (10 Jun 2006)

+1................ :rofl:


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## Hot Lips (10 Jun 2006)

Zipperhead_cop,

Why don't the OPP just say frig it and walk away...let there be an informal justice take place...okay...I know I know...doesn't work that way...
I truly believe that if you (these natives) are going to act this way...your rights ought to be taken away...because you are no longer deserving of them as a Canadian IMO...

I pray to God that nothing serious happens to the cops being put in harms way...without proper protection...and shame on those who made it so...

HL


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## 17thRecceSgt (10 Jun 2006)

*News crew hurt covering Caledonia standoff*

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/06/10/caledonia.html

Ontario Provincial Police are investigating a new outbreak of violence at the native protest site in Caledonia and claims that its *officers did not intervene to stop an attack on two news camera operators.*

Debbie Walker, a managing producer at CH Television in nearby Hamilton, said one of the employees was taken to hospital Friday with cuts and bruises to his head, but couldn't say who was responsible. A second camera operator also suffered minor injuries after he was kicked and punched.

Ken MacKay and Nick Garbutt said they were attacked by Six Nations protesters while filming  *a confrontation between natives and an elderly couple* in front of a Canadian Tire store.

MacKay alleged that he asked for protection from OPP officers standing nearby but they did nothing to help.

Garbutt needed stitches to close a head wound. MacKay accompanied his colleague to hospital, but did not require treatment.

OPP Const. Keith Robb said police were investigating the allegations.

Insults thrown around

The conflict continued late into the night as natives and non-natives hurled insults at each other over a schoolyard fence. Townspeople also directed their anger at police,* accusing them of being one-sided after two non-native residents were arrested*.

The three-month standoff began Feb. 28 when a small group of Six Nations protesters from the Grand River Territory reserve moved on to a construction site in the town, southwest of Hamilton, claiming the land belongs to them.

Since then, there has been an abortive OPP raid to clear the site in April, a subsequent blockade of a major artery into town; strained relations between native and non-native protesters that led to a standoff down the road, and finally a period of calm after the protesters took down their blockade and moved back on to the construction site.

Native protesters still occupy that land.


This has gone on TOO long.  And now roaming bands of thug Natives are pulling shite like this off?

Time to release the hounds.


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## Hot Lips (10 Jun 2006)

See now...the news (CTV) just reported on this OPP incident with the natives...I have a huge problem now that I saw that poor dear woman...of Europen decent of some type...recount she and her husband being attacked for being on their way to Hamilton...dear god the poor man had a heartattack over the incident and is in hospital...

Enough is enough IMO for the love of god will someone not get some balls and sort this out...it is way beyond a land claim issue now 

HL


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## 17thRecceSgt (10 Jun 2006)

Ya maybe start by getting rid of the barracade by force if required.

Concurrently, they could get rid of the weak panzy ass Liberal premier as well...

Picking on old people now?  Now they are just thugs and bullies.  Throat punches!


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## vonGarvin (10 Jun 2006)

Time for a levee en masse to handle the issue? (please note that this is totally sarcastic on my part)


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## zipperhead_cop (10 Jun 2006)

Hot Lips said:
			
		

> Why don't the OPP just say frig it and walk away...let there be an informal justice take place...okay...I know I know...doesn't work that way...



Well, with the denial of proper equipment, I could see a justification for a work refusal under the Occupational Health and Safety Act.  If all of the lads were on board, the brass would have a real cluster on their hands.  Unfortunately, the promotional and reward system in the OPP is designed to crush team cohesion, and to bolster toadyism and back stabbing.  Leaders are heavily penalized for their initiative, and anyone who doesn't tow the Corporate line gets isolated and administratively hazed.  I have much sympathy for my O-dot brothers and sisters.  



			
				Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> Ya maybe start by getting rid of the barracade by force if required.



There should still be some operational mine flails around for the Leo's aren't there?  Seems to me that would break things up rather quickly.  



			
				Hot Lips said:
			
		

> Enough is enough IMO for the love of god will someone not get some balls  and sort this out...it is way beyond a land claim issue now



HAH.  Funny you should mention that.  The one who needs them is one who never had them.  Give this a read, and then decide if your Provincial Police are being given the political backing that they need.  THIS IS NOT MADE UP, THIS IS OPP POLICY:

http://www.ipperwashinquiry.ca/policy_part/meetings/pdf/OPP_Appendix_D_Promise_of_the_OPP.pdf

*“THE PROMISE OF THE O.P.P.” (VALUES AND ETHICS)
As an organization, the O.P.P. commits to working continually to earn the confidence of the citizens of and visitors to Ontario—a confidence that will not be taken for granted. The O.P.P. fulfills this commitment by providing the best and most professional service, possible, and by striving to build a culture of trust, and open and honest dialogue, with the communities it serves and among the people it employs. The organization commits to creating and sustaining a positive working environment in which all employees have equal opportunity to fulfill their potential within the profession.
As an O.P.P. employee and volunteer, I appreciate the vital role I play in protecting the fundamental rights of all people in Ontario. I therefore commit to always putting the interests of the public and the O.P.P.’s Vision and Mission before any personal and private interest. And I promise that I will always demonstrate pride in my profession and the O.P.P. through personal conduct that reflects my belief in the value of:
Accountability
Respectful Relationships
Fairness, Courage and Caring
Continuous Learning
Diversity
September 2002 1
“The Promise of the O.P.P.” (Values and Ethics)
ETHICS (BEHAVIOURS) UNDERLYING “THE PROMISE”
Accountability (professional excellence)
I will:
• Project a positive, professional image: attitude, appearance and demeanor
• Lead by example; always try to be a good role model
• Be accountable for my own actions and those of my staff
• Advance corporate direction and policies• Assume my rightful share of the work and pitch in to help others
• Admit when I don’t have an answer; seek out appropriate information/people
• Know when to take initiative and be an independent thinker, and when to take direction
• Take a stand on values/principles, even when it’s difficult to do so
• Ensure there is consistency between what I say and do
• Be honest, courteous, trustworthy and keep my word, dedicated, diligent and disciplined in all my dealings; make good use of constructive criticism
• Do the very best I can to “make a positive difference” each day
• Seek to understand and provide service consistent with the needs, expectations and priorities of my customers, staff, team
• Take personal responsibility and initiative, e.g. follow up on all inquiries (complaints, requests), provide progress reports/helpful information, inquire if there is anything else I can do to be helpful, “go the extra mile”; explain, as appropriate, why certain processes/actions are necessary
• Be clear that to accept free “perks” or “professional courtesies” may lead to a sense of entitlement or indebtedness that could potentially compromise the public’s trust in my ability to remain objective and impartial in the exercise of my duties
• Protect the rights of all people in an equal and consistent manner
• As a supervisor, I will make “people management” my top priority; address performance expectations clearly, consistently, directly, constructively and in a timely fashion; provide specific feedback to staff on what s/he did to achieve, exceed or fall short of expectations
Respectful Relationships (strong and positive)
I will:
• Be approachable; friendly, cheerful; welcoming, sincere, enthusiastic; demonstrate strong inter-personal and communication skills
• Be accessible; maintain an “open door policy”, make time to know my staff, colleagues and communities; ensure regular face to face contact; collaborate and cooperate
• Support the O.P.P. Auxiliary and community volunteers
• Strengthen relationships with our First Nations communities and First Nations policing partners, our police services boards, policing advisory committees and community partners; our justice sector partners; and federal and municipal police services
• Involve people from the community and concerned agencies in a partnership to prevent, identify and resolve issues of crime, traffic and social order
• Be familiar with and make appropriate referral to community resources and agencies
• Recognize the positive contributions of others; thank people; demonstrate my trust in others by acknowledging their strengths, skills and expertise
• Build effective teams
Fairness, Courage and Caring (empathy and compassion)
I will:
• Have the courage to confront those who violate democratic, human and civil rights of others
• Maintain an open mind, try to be impartial and non-judgmental; be aware of and manage my personal biases or attitudes, e.g. stereotypes
• Understand consequences for others of when/how I express my personal feelings and opinions; try to understand the underlying feelings of others; try to anticipate others’ reactions to my behaviour or comments, e.g. jokes
• Appreciate the state of mind of people “in crisis” or with a problem they consider very serious; help to calm and diffuse emotions in a crisis; help vulnerable people to feel safe and secure
• Learn from and forgive honest errors
• Be patient and as flexible, as possible
• Put myself in the shoes of others; understand things from the perspective of my customers and colleagues
• Treat all others with equality, as I would want my loved ones and myself to be treated; victims and accused (their families and communities), colleagues and staff, regardless of gender, race, ethnicity, ability, age, etc.; enable others to maintain their dignity even in the face of adversity
• Support colleagues, especially those who may feel vulnerable or at a disadvantage because of their employment status, e.g. new recruits, volunteer, civilian, contract; or background, e.g. race, gender, ethnicity
• Exercise humility and self-control/discipline
• Be thoughtful about both what I say and “how” I communicate, i.e. sensitive to inadvertent or subtle messages, terms or labels; avoid potentially hurtful rumours and gossip; maintain confidentiality
Continuous Learning (professional and personal development)
I will:
• Take personal responsibility for my career and personal development; seek out learning opportunities
• Debrief to learn from both successes and failures; learn by reflecting on my personal contributions to either; look for the positive in learning, especially from failure and disappointment; apply learning to future actions
• Encourage discussion of ethical dilemmas, i.e. “doing the right thing, not just doing things right”
• Share with others the benefit of my experience, knowledge and skills; seek feedback on my performance
• Seek out the experience, knowledge and skills of others in the community
• Work to understand underlying causes of social disorder and crime in order to be more effective on the job
• Take care of myself, e.g. recognize when I need help (professionally and personally) and be willing to seek help; maintain a work-life balance
• Stay current with changes in my field and more broadly the profession and organization
• Look beyond the status quo to improve my skills and knowledge; always seek to improve what and how I can contribute, e.g. creative solutions, better approaches, new technologies/tools
Diversity (in society and my workplace)
I will:
• Seek to understand different perspectives, cultures, lifestyles, creeds and apply that understanding to effect quality policing
• Identify candidates for recruitment to enhance the diversity of the O.P.P. workforce reflective of the communities we serve
• Adjust the way I work (behave and communicate) by appropriately accommodating others’ basic human rights
• Respect the individual dignity and strengths of all people

DIRECTION FOR NEWLY COMMISSIONED OFFICERS
Preamble to the Oath of Office to be read by the Commissioner
You have performed your duties as a non-commissioned officer in an exemplary manner. In recognition of your demonstrated abilities, you are now to be awarded a Queen’s Commission as an Officer with the Ontario Provincial Police. This is indeed an honour.
As a Commissioned Officer, you must:
 Dedicate yourself to acting in the best interests of the public
 Remain loyal to the Vision and Mission of the Ontario Provincial Police and champion its corporate direction
 Demonstrate, by example, your belief in the value of:
Accountability for Professional Excellence
Positive and Respectful Relationships
Fairness, Courage and Caring
Continuous Learning, and
Diversity in Society and in our Workplace
 Foster and sustain an organizational culture of open and honest dialogue, equality and trust
 Exercise leadership responsibilities consistent with goals of achieving Justice, applying the Rule of Law, maintaining a strong Moral Core, and respecting Human Dignity and the Democratic Principles upon which our society is based
Oath of Office
I solemnly affirm that I will be loyal to Her Majesty the Queen and to Canada, and that I will uphold the Constitution of Canada and that I will, to the best of my ability, preserve the peace, prevent offences and discharge my other duties as a Commissioned Officer, faithfully, impartially and according to law.
September 2002 5*

Pretty ridiculous way to micro manage "To Serve and Protect".  Funny how no other group than natives gets singled out for special consideration.  

And for that matter, where are the native members of this site in this discussion?  I would love to see them give their two cents worth, or are they afraid of being labeled "apples"?

Perhaps once someone dies from the mishandling of this blatant act of what borders on treason, somone else will remove their cranium from their anal orifice and get to work.  Then we can all feel free to point the finger where the blame belongs...........


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## vonGarvin (10 Jun 2006)

I said it before, and I'll say it again: Levee en masse:
"The levée en masse is defined as taking place against foreign troops either invading or occupying a country, restricting the definition to one involving national self-defense. It refers especially to situations in which the populace spontaneously takes up what weapons it has and, without having time to organize, resists the invasion."
OK, so it's not an invasion by foreign troops.....but....

How about just a steak and lobster fest followed by oodles of beer?


----------



## paracowboy (10 Jun 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> And for that matter, where are the native members of this site in this discussion?  I would love to see them give their two cents worth, or are they afraid of being labeled "apples"?


uuhhh, that would be me. Mommy is a squaw. Or at least, mostly. Daddy has some tepee-creepin' in his background. Makes me about 1/4 - 2/3 Indian. Card-carrying Metis, and fiercely proud of it. My family fought on both sides of the Riel Rebellion.


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## zipperhead_cop (10 Jun 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> uuhhh, that would be me. Mommy is a squaw. Or at least, mostly. Daddy has some tepee-creepin' in his background. Makes me about 1/4 - 2/3 Indian. Card-carrying Metis, and fiercely proud of it. My family fought on both sides of the Riel Rebellion.



I stand suitably informed.  Then thank you for your credible views.


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## 17thRecceSgt (10 Jun 2006)

My question is how many native's have been arrested since this crap started in Caledonia?


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## Hot Lips (10 Jun 2006)

vonGarvin said:
			
		

> I said it before, and I'll say it again: Levee en masse:
> "The levée en masse is defined as taking place against foreign troops either invading or occupying a country, restricting the definition to one involving national self-defense. It refers especially to situations in which the populace spontaneously takes up what weapons it has and, without having time to organize, resists the invasion."
> OK, so it's not an invasion by foreign troops.....but....
> 
> *How about just a steak and lobster fest followed by oodles of beer?*


 I'm in vonGarvin...I mean if you think that steak and lobster will work I'm there, lmao and I could go a beer or two too  

HL


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## Hot Lips (10 Jun 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> uuhhh, that would be me. Mommy is a squaw. Or at least, mostly. Daddy has some tepee-creepin' in his background. Makes me about 1/4 - 2/3 Indian. Card-carrying Metis, and fiercely proud of it. My family fought on both sides of the Riel Rebellion.


 Well I understand that I have Micmac roots somewhere along the lines...supposedly 1/16...no card though...course I am Acadian too so (could have a card for that) there's a mix for ya and that's only one side  

HL


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## zipperhead_cop (11 Jun 2006)

Well, the incident to which I referred finally made some press:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060610/caledonia_conflict_060611/20060611?hub=TopStories
*
U.S. agents swarmed in Caledonia dispute: policeUpdated Sun. Jun. 11 2006 2:46 PM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

Ontario Provincial Police are looking for seven First Nations residents who face a number of serious charges in the ongoing Caledonia land dispute, including attempted murder, forcible confinement and robbery.

Police issued arrest warrants Saturday in connection with several violent clashes, including one incident Friday where a U.S. Border Patrol vehicle was stolen and driven toward an OPP officer.

Const. Doug Graham said the officer was injured as he was pulled out of the speeding vehicle's path. He was treated and released.

The stolen vehicle was recovered but no arrests were made.

Graham said angry native protestors had surrounded the U.S. Border Patrol vehicle, then dragged out the three passengers who were inside.

"They were forcibly removed after they were swarmed," he said.

U.S. Border Patrol officers were in the area to observe how OPP were handling the standoff.

"Often, police officials work together and share information, and that group was here observing how we were using our police resources during this incident," Graham said.

Other charges expected to be laid against the suspects include theft of a motor vehicle, intimidation and assault causing bodily harm.

The following individuals are being sought by police: 

Albert Douglas, 30, of Ohsweken, Ont., faces charges of attempted murder, theft of a motor vehicle, dangerous driving, assaulting a police officer, forcible confinement, robbery and two counts of breaching his bail; 
Trevor Miller, 30, of no fixed address, faces charges of robbery and theft of motor vehicle; 
Audra Ann Taillefer, 45, of Victoria, B.C., faces charges of robbery and two counts of intimidation; 
Skylar Williams, 22, of Ohsweken, faces one charge of robbery; 
Arnold Douglas, 61, of Ohsweken, faces two counts of intimidation; 
Ken Hill, 47, of Ohsweken, faces two counts of assault; and 
An arrest warrant is pending for one male suspect on a charge of assault causing bodily harm.
The swarming incident was just one of several disputes Friday that are related to charges.

About 300 angry Caledonia residents confronted riot police to protest police inaction after two Hamilton TV news cameramen were injured by aboriginals.

One victim who needed stitches to close a gash on his head said police stood by and did nothing during the assault.

Police said more charges will be laid in connection to an incident Friday where an elderly couple was hassled by native protestors.

Haldimand County Mayor Marie Trainer said she had a difficult time believing police would stand idly by during the attacks.

"Any of the OPP officers that I know, they wouldn't have let that happen," Trainer told CH News.

"They wouldn't have let those seniors be harassed like that, and they wouldn't have let those cameramen be beat up -- I know they wouldn't. So I don't know what was wrong with those few that were there."

Police said more charges will be laid in connection to an incident Friday where an elderly couple was confronted by native protestors.

Deputy OPP commissioner Maurice Pilon also had a hard time believing the claim.

"I find it difficult to accept that our officers are not engaging when they need to," he said.

Pilon said police are working with Six Nations officers to find the suspects.

"I must point out that some of these people that we're seeking warrants for are not from this area and I don't know if they're still in the area," he told reporters.

In a statement Saturday, the Six Nations Confederacy said they are a peaceful people and don't condone violence.

"The actions which occurred at the Six Nations reclamation site and within the town of Caledonia today are very disheartening," the statement said.

"Our prayers and concern are with those who were injured during the outbreaks today. A peaceful co-existence with our neighbours and the safety of all remain at the paramount of our concerns."

The individuals involved in the incidents have been removed from the site until the Six Nations complete its own investigation, the statement said.

The confederacy said it's committed to working with the OPP to "de-escalate" the tense situation.

The violent disputes are the latest in the 104-day standoff.

Gen. Rick Hillier, Canada's chief of defence staff for the Canadian Forces, said he doesn't expect the military to get involved in the dispute any time soon.

"We believe that's a police operation, and every conversation we've ever had with police forces is that this is their business," Hillier said.

"Getting this thing right is the way to approach it."

Critics are blaming the Ipperwash standoff for the reluctant police action on unruly protestors.

During that dispute, aboriginal protestor Dudley George was shot and killed by a police bullet in 1995.

Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty has taken fire from opponents who say he is not providing any direction to police in dealing with the Caledonia protestors.

McGuinty says a peaceful solution is within reach.

In recent weeks the situation has been tense, as both the aboriginal protesters and non-aboriginal residents have demanded the end of the occupation.

The protesters are trying to prevent construction of a housing development on land they claim as their own, and have vowed to stay on the site until there is a resolution to the dispute. 

Protesters argue that the site of the Douglas Creek Estates housing project was part of a large land grant back in 1784, but the provincial and federal governments insist the land was surrendered in 1841 to help build a major highway.*

By god I am sick of these arseholes being refered to as "protesters".   You would think actual protesters would take offence at being lumped in with these anarchists.  

So by peaceful solution, McGuinty will probably throw money at the native criminals and stand by to see most of the criminal charges get tossed once the media attention goes away.  
So now we get to look like tools to all of the American policing agencies on top of this.  Fantastic.  

If this land was given back in 1841 to the Province, would there not be some sort of paper work for that kind of thing?  And if it was so unfairly taken back, why the Christ did this issue not surface in the 165 years following?  I'm not being rhetorical.  I would really love to hear some sort of answer to that.


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt (11 Jun 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> My question is how many native's have been arrested since this crap started in Caledonia?



As an aside, in one of the newscasts that was on today, they talked about the fact the OPP was "in negotiations" with the Six Nations Police Force in order to arrest those charged.  

I should add that after seeing the video on a couple of occasions and the hearing the comments from the cameramen, there needs to be a formal inquiry into this.  The OPP was standing right there with their thumbs up their asses, allowed the assault and the theft to take place and it was actually a lone Caledonia resident who stepped in to pull the cameraman out of the group of attackers.

There is no excuse for this....none.


Matthew.


----------



## zipperhead_cop (11 Jun 2006)

Okay, I stand to see footage of anyone with a thumb in their ass.  ^-^
You guys don't get it.  They are ORDERED not to do anything.  I wouldn't be surprised if the native criminals shot a guy and the officers on scene (the real ones, not the native puppets) were not allowed to do anything.  I have friends that have been/are there, and they are beyond enraged at the crap that they are having to endure.  Gwen Bonniface is a disgrace, and would not know leadership if it was tattooed on her arm.  
Given the level of cover up with Ken Deane's JUSTIFIED SHOOTING of Dudley George, please understand that politicians at all levels in Canada and Ontario are (for some reason beyond sanity) terrified to take on the native issue.  I guess if they did, and used the righteous force needed to take down the barricades, when the native criminals opened up with automatic weapons and ordinance they would have to admit that they have no control over these lawless yahoo's.  Pretty hard to keep your head jammed in your arse when a pile of 5.56 and link is found after the dust settles.  
Political molly coddling, pure and simple.  Please take a minute and remember who to blame.....


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt (11 Jun 2006)

ZC,

Don't get me wrong, I believe the heart of the problem is the politicians who have tied the police's hands (most likely with severe penalties for not following orders having been made abundantly clear).  My point is that we have to get to whomever is calling the shots and get this straightened out.  Allowing such behaviour will only embolden these pricks to push harder next time because they believe they can get away with it.


Matthew.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt (12 Jun 2006)

I had no idea police officers could be ordered to NOT enforce the Criminal Code of Canada.  Who ironic is THAT?


----------



## zipperhead_cop (12 Jun 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> I had no idea police officers could be ordered to NOT enforce the Criminal Code of Canada.  Who ironic is THAT?



Pathetic but true.  The only place in the CCC that indicates that we SHALL arrest someone is where a warrant for their arrest exists.  Everything else is a "may".  Just pretend that the OPP are on a circa 1990's "peacekeeping" mission.  Stand by and watch unbelievable acts because your ROE are so toothless.  

Blackshirt, I agree with you 100%.  However, the issue that has to be straightened out is how do we overcome our "white mans guilt" and start dealing with criminals as just that; criminals?  For the police, it is fairly straight forward.  For the politicians, since they only exist in the media in so far as they can bad mouth another one, taking this issue on is a huge undertaking.  Once the country can get past its collective WMG, you might see lots of problems being sorted out in a credible manner.  Until then, white, christian males are at fault for everything on the entire planet from about 1000 years ago until the time this post appears, and well after as well.  I hope you aren't one.  I for one feel terrible for everything my ilk and I are responsible for.   :


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt (12 Jun 2006)

See attached article from today:



> http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/06/11/caledonia-police.html
> 
> Caledonia suspects may be holed up on reserve
> Last Updated Sun, 11 Jun 2006 14:13:42 EDT
> ...


----------



## 17thRecceSgt (12 Jun 2006)

nice protocol to not enter the Reserve.  Man, I feel for the OPP now, having their hands tied and NOT being allowed to arrest criminals.

Zip, good comparison.

Mud


----------



## zipperhead_cop (12 Jun 2006)

Anyone else think this sounds a little like a PLO insincere condemnation?

'The Haudenosaunee are a people of peace and do not condone violence of any form.'
-Six Nations Confederacy"Our prayers and concern are with those who were injured during the outbreaks today. A peaceful co-existence with our neighbours and the safety of all remain at the paramount of our concerns."

The key point on the issue of entering the reserve is that it is only a protocol.  A courtesy extended to the native police under the assumption that they will uphold the law the same way as everywhere else in the province.  By law, they can go in whenever they want.  In reality, they never will because of the lack of political will to take on what would ensue [see above posted prediction].  Dont forget to take a few minutes and thank the people who brought you this embarrasment:


----------



## 17thRecceSgt (12 Jun 2006)

I think I could replace those people with a couple of target balloons and not see much difference.

Scarey part is..I believe the people of that area WILL eventually get tired of inaction by the Province and OPP and take it upon themselves to end this..one way or the other.  Everyone has a breaking point.

Not to mention the damage (that will probably never be righted) between relations between the 2 communities.


----------



## zipperhead_cop (12 Jun 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> Not to mention the damage (that will probably never be righted) between relations between the 2 communities.



Yup.  And don't think in the aftermath of this, when townsfolk see native criminals driving around on their stolen ATV's, and bragging about their victory, they won't remember for a long time.  So when the natives don't get hired at the local businesses, or aren't so very welcome at the local bars or community centers, they will use that as a justification for their actions, claiming "see, they were racist all along.  They never would have given us a fair shake on the land.  We did what we had to do".  And guess what?  They'll do it again.  If not here, then where ever a successful development or confirmed mineral/resource deposit appears near a reserve.  If you were a native, why wouldn't you?  Open rebellion, no law but the law of mob mentality, take anything you want from anyone whose skin is too lightly shaded.  Zero concerns of reprisals, even from your own laughingly named native "police".  Good times!


----------



## 17thRecceSgt (12 Jun 2006)

sigh

too bad, if it was handled right at the beginning...hind sight eh?  its always 20/20.

I equate this to the mindset of "if I close my eyes the monster under the bed will not be there" on the part of the Province.  Like...someway it will all just go away and Happy Happy Joy Joy will return.


----------



## aluc (12 Jun 2006)

> "In a statement Saturday, the Six Nations Confederacy said they are a peaceful people and don't condone violence."


    Tee hee....



> "The individuals involved in the incidents have been removed from the site until the Six Nations complete its own investigation, the statement said".



 ;D


I've got my opinions on this matter, and by no means am I an expert but......white man's guilt is prohibiting me from commenting in earnest.


----------



## zipperhead_cop (13 Jun 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> I think he meant more the "how the thing is being handled", or something.



We'll see.  

In the mean time, things might be starting to get interesting.  I won't publish the whole article, but a few selected tid bits...

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/12062006/2/national-ontario-s-premier-calls-talks-caledonia-violent-skirmishes.html

Ontario's premier calls off talks in Caledonia over violent skirmishes  
Members of the Six Nations Confederacy - the traditional leadership, rather than the elected council - said they have no plans to surrender the wanted men to police. 
Confederacy Chief Allen McNaughton told the Hamilton Spectator any attempt to seize the suspects could spark trouble.  "I don't think so," McNaughton said when asked if the suspects might be handed over. 

McGuinty said negotiations would resume only when the barricades at the disputed site in Caledonia, Ont., come down, and if aboriginals co-operate with the police investigation into the incidents from the weekend. 
"We have just about exhausted our goodwill and our patience," McGuinty said. 
Asked what he'll do if the barricades don't soon come down, McGuinty simply answered: "We'll see."  

OOOO!! Who is going to blink first?  Elderly folk being tossed around makes for some pretty dismal footage come election time.  But you can bet this is going to be a gun fight if it keeps on the way it is and the barricades are forced down.  
The important thing is that they won't be meeting until Thursday, so there will be plenty of time to mass weapons, ammo and willing terrorists if it looks like the native free-for-all is going to be shut down.  
Y'all watch out for brooms now!  :


----------



## Brad Sallows (13 Jun 2006)

A concealed carry law in Ontario would probably go a long ways to helping people restrain themselves.


----------



## zipperhead_cop (13 Jun 2006)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> A concealed carry law in Ontario would probably go a long ways to helping people restrain themselves.



Yeah, good call.  Bring more guns to the equation and arm more people who are pissed off.  We should probably supply free alcohol to anyone who lives in the area too.   :
Boy, some people are just burnin' to see an O-dot get hurt around here, aren't they.  Must be all the buns they give out on the highway.


----------



## Lumber (13 Jun 2006)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> A concealed carry law in Ontario would probably go a long ways to helping people restrain themselves.



By 'concealed carry law' do you mean make it legal to cary concealed weapons? If so, this is no a swift critisism as zipperhead (not saying you arn't correct zip) but could you explain your ratinoal as to how this would help the situation Brad?


----------



## 17thRecceSgt (13 Jun 2006)

IF they anen't going to surrender them, then someone should go effin get them.  Pussies.  (politician's and the head of the OPP)


----------



## Hot Lips (13 Jun 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> We'll see.
> 
> In the mean time, things might be starting to get interesting.  I won't publish the whole article, but a few selected tid bits...
> 
> ...


 This whole thing IMO is a mockery at our judicial system and has gotten way out of control...
People are getting hurt...isn't that enough for someone (gov't officials) to step in and put an end to all of it...
Quite frankly I think the natives, in this situation, have given up their rights to anything with their unlawful behavior.
IMO when you start beating on the elderly you need your N*** kicked in  :rage:
HL


----------



## rifleman (13 Jun 2006)

Big question: Are natives actually citizens of Canada?


----------



## Lumber (13 Jun 2006)

rifleman said:
			
		

> Big question: Are natives actually citizens of Canada?



Some would say no, that they are the original owners and tenders of this land. But that wouldn't stop them from demanding access to OUR free health care. Then again we do tax them? But most of them would say yes they are canadian citizens, especially the métis.
As to if they are 'technically' and 'officialy' 100% canadian citizens, I can't see why not, but can't say for sure. 
Anyone else?


----------



## Gunnar (13 Jun 2006)

> Pussies.  (politician's and the head of the OPP)



Like the armed forces, the police exist to carry out the will of the government.  The provincial government, being Liberals, believes that everything can be negotiated if you only love people enough.  They have executive control over the OPP, who I am sure are actively being prevented from being effective by our elected officials.  The federal government is not going to step in until invited to do so by the provincial government.  The terrorists who were recently arrested were arrested under joint federal/provincial auspices.

To paraphrase, the maintenance of law and order is the continuation of public policy by physical means.  If public policy is a big group hug, then that's what your law and order arm will be ordered to do.  I can't see the cops being too happy about not being allowed to wear riot gear at a mess like this, nor not being allowed to break heads where they need breaking....

The pussies, if you will, are the Lieberal government, the same Lieberal government that once elected broke ALL of their election promises in the first two weeks.  All of them.  I mean, c'mon...can you possibly show more contempt for the people who elected you?  In any case, because the Lieberals believe everything can be forgiven, and everything can be negotiated if only you show people you love them enough, expect the police to sit on their hands even longer, before the natives are given a big fat untaxable cheque to quietly disperse.  It's friggin Danegeld, and Dalton the Unready is gonna end up handing it out because he's a useless turd.

An opinion piece, without a fact except consequences of Liberal philosophy to back it up.  For what it's worth.


----------



## Shec (13 Jun 2006)

NCdt Lumber said:
			
		

> Some would say no, that they are the original owners and tenders of this land. But that wouldn't stop them from demanding access to OUR free health care. Then again we do tax them? But most of them would say yes they are canadian citizens, especially the métis.
> As to if they are 'technically' and 'officialy' 100% canadian citizens, I can't see why not, but can't say for sure.
> Anyone else?



The whole matter of citizenship is something that in and of itself is a subject of debate.  It goes back to the treaties which according to the Europeans made them subjects of the Crown.   And this in turn would have evolved into Canadian citizenship.  

The First Nations claim that the treaties were peace and friendship treaties between nations.  To make it more interesting each of the treaties are in effect "for as long as the rivers shall run and the grass shall grow".


----------



## George Wallace (13 Jun 2006)

Shec said:
			
		

> To make it more interesting each of the treaties are in effect "for as long as the rivers shall run and the grass shall grow".



So!  We dam the rivers and generate Hydro Electricity.  We spray the grass with Weed Out or Total and kill it; or better yet, build a parking lot.  Now the Treaty is Null and Void.   ;D


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## TMM (13 Jun 2006)

I know natives with CAD passports so I would say yes they are citizens.


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## zipperhead_cop (13 Jun 2006)

Gunnar said:
			
		

> It's friggin Danegeld, and Dalton the Unready is gonna end up handing it out because he's a useless turd.
> 
> An opinion piece, without a fact except consequences of Liberal philosophy to back it up.  For what it's worth.



Quite an accurate opinion piece, and a well written one, too.  
Dolton has drawn his grey dotted line lightly in the sand for Thursday.  Let's see how he caves, or magically grows a set by then.


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## Cloud Cover (13 Jun 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Quite an accurate opinion piece, and a well written one, too.
> Dolton has drawn his grey dotted line lightly in the sand for Thursday.  Let's see how he caves, or magically grows a set by then.



He'll be too busy Thursday enlightening the little blonde lawyer over at Ogilvie Renault ... trust me on this.


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## George Wallace (13 Jun 2006)

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> He'll be too busy Thursday enlightening the little blonde lawyer over at Ogilvie Renault ... trust me on this.


Isn't he a married man?


----------



## Cloud Cover (13 Jun 2006)

Finding himself, apparently.


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## zipperhead_cop (13 Jun 2006)

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> He'll be too busy Thursday enlightening the little blonde lawyer over at Ogilvie Renault ... trust me on this.



Hmmm!!!  Conspiracy theory time.  Little blonde is planted by natives to compromise the PPM.  They have pics/vid of him in room previously wired with camera's.  Hence the waffling.  Unless the little blonde is Belinda.  Then it is just being an orifice to Lieberal issue.


----------



## George Wallace (14 Jun 2006)

This isn't going to be one of those Honour and Offer type of nights.......is it?  We'll never hear the end of it.


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## zipperhead_cop (14 Jun 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> This isn't going to be one of those Honour and Offer type of nights.......is it?  We'll never hear the end of it.



Hard to say.  There does seem to be a little bit of something extra in the broadband tonight.   >


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## Bobbyoreo (14 Jun 2006)

"Big question: Are natives actually citizens of Canada?"


If its worth something to them they are....if we say no..then they are not!! Seems to be the way I've seen it.


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## Cdn Blackshirt (14 Jun 2006)

More evidence of media "managing" information in our best interests.

See the attached link.  http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060613.wcalside0613/BNStory/National/home

It looks like the Globe & Mail had it live for a grand total of about 4 hours and now if you go to their front page, you can't even find the article.


Matthew.   



> Caledonia residents terrorized
> Canadian Press
> 
> Caledonia, Ont. — Angry residents living near the Douglas Creek Estates housing development occupied by aboriginal protesters say they'll protect their homes and families if the police won't.
> ...


----------



## aluc (14 Jun 2006)

Looks like it's turned into the wild wild west over there. Every man for himself, vigilante justice. This could escalate into something interesting indeed! What a joke....


----------



## TMM (14 Jun 2006)

Wow.

This has definitely gone far too far. The longer the natives act like this the less support they end up with.

Somoene in authority needs to grow a pair and get this settled before people on both sides get killed.


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## 17thRecceSgt (14 Jun 2006)

rifleman said:
			
		

> Big question: Are natives actually citizens of Canada?



If they receive money for homes, education, etc etc I hope they are.


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## Bobbyoreo (14 Jun 2006)

"If they receive money for homes, education, etc etc I hope they are."


Canada builds and buys homes for lots of people coming into the country and they are not Canadians!!


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## TMM (14 Jun 2006)

Bobbyoreo said:
			
		

> Canada builds and buys homes for lots of people coming into the country and they are not Canadians!!



If this question takes it too far OT then take it to PMs, but just where are these homes being built?


----------



## paracowboy (14 Jun 2006)

Bobbyoreo said:
			
		

> Canada builds and buys homes for lots of people coming into the country and they are not Canadians!!


uuhhh, by immigrating here, they become Canadians. You don't mean to imply that only those born here are Canadians, do you? Or, is it a matter of generations born here that makes you Canadian? If that's the case, I want all you White folk gone. I got prior claim!
(Well, you can leave the women.)


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## Bobbyoreo (14 Jun 2006)

LOL...the woman come too.

Yea i guess your right about them being Canadian. I just know Canada brought doctors from some countries and built them houses and or gave them already built house in the Wpg area for free. I saw it first hand and they people moving in didnt even speak much english....kind of scary..going to be doctors out here..and not speaking english...but thats for another subject!!!


----------



## TMM (14 Jun 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> (Well, you can leave the women.)



Why thank you para!

I would love more detials on this example of doctors.


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## Bobbyoreo (14 Jun 2006)

I dont know what else you want. Im only tell you what I have seen. I cant give you a ref as It's something I've seen first hand. maybe contact the feds and ask them. Anyways this has gone far off topic. Ill try and find out some info for you and if you have any questions just send me a message.


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## Brad Sallows (14 Jun 2006)

>By 'concealed carry law' do you mean make it legal to cary concealed weapons?

For people without criminal records or histories of violence.

>but could you explain your ratinoal as to how this would help the situation Brad?

I don't care whether it helps a particular situation, but people are less bellicose when they know actions can have real consequences.  Shit-disturbers find other things to do when they know the likelihood approaches certainty that they'll either do serious jail time or suffer a beating at the hands of the people they torment.  Have you noticed, for example, that several people will often mouth off at a few, but a few or one are less prone to mouth off back?  If the legitimate security forces of the state can't or won't - I don't care whether by order or by choice - discharge their responsibilities, then they've unilaterally broken the social contract and the right to secure one's interests reverts to the people.

The solution is to sort out the frigging situation by pretending everyone involved is a mild-mannered anglo-saxon male 45-year old accountant with children and a nice home in the suburbs.  Do you think an easy piece of meat like that would be treated with kid gloves?  Neither should anyone else.


----------



## paracowboy (14 Jun 2006)

Bobby,
frankly I don't care how well he speaks English, as long as he speaks his own former Official language well enough that he understood his Medical Training perfectly. We can work out his instructions to me later, as long as he knows how to roll the right pills, and cut the right places, it's all good.


----------



## Bobbyoreo (14 Jun 2006)

"Bobby,
frankly I don't care how well he speaks English, as long as he speaks his own former Official language well enough that he understood his Medical Training perfectly. We can work out his instructions to me later, as long as he knows how to roll the right pills, and cut the right places, it's all good."


Thats scares me. I want to understand what they say.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt (14 Jun 2006)

Any updates on the Caledonia situation?  Cone of silence here in the Maritimes on it...

On the doctors issue...I hope he can understand what I say...how the hell else will he know what is wrong with me?  Guess I better dust off my Etch-A-Sketch and practice up my picture-drawing stuff again...


----------



## zipperhead_cop (15 Jun 2006)

Here ya go:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060613.wcaled0613/BNStory/National/

*Ontario wants aboriginal assistance in arrests  KEITH LESLIE 

Canadian Press 

Toronto — The removal of a highway barricade was heralded Tuesday as a positive step in resolving an aboriginal land standoff, but Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty warned that negotiations will not resume until First Nations leaders help apprehend several aboriginals facing criminal charges.

Protesters worked overnight to remove a barricade of tires and tangled metal that blocked a highway bypass in this southern Ontario community, less than 24 hours after Mr. McGuinty suspended talks with Six Nations leaders because of recent violence.

“In order to keep talks moving, the chiefs and clan mothers gave directions to have them opened,” said Six Nations spokeswoman Janie Jamieson, who characterized the move as a show of good faith.

Another barrier remained, however, at the Douglas Creek Estates housing development, the site of the disputed land.

And Ms. Jamieson was adamant that Six Nations leaders would not hand over any suspects to provincial police.

“We're dealing with that internally right now, according to our own law, our constitution,” she said of the six aboriginals facing criminal charges following clashes with television cameramen, police and non-aboriginal residents last weekend.

Ms. Jamieson said protesters have been told that the OPP and Six Nations Police would work together to make the arrests.

“If that happens, it happens. Right now, they're not going to be turned over to the OPP.”

The Six Nations has its legal tradition that they contend governs their actions and legal processes.

David Ramsay, minister responsible for aboriginal affairs, said Tuesday that the Six Nations' “grand law” is similar to English common law.

“But what we're saying to them is that the Criminal Code of Canada is supreme in this country. It applies to all people and in all places.”

At the provincial legislature, Mr. McGuinty acknowledged the “good influence” of First Nations leaders to get the barricade removed but said he still is not prepared to resume negotiations.

“Well, we're halfway there, subject to confirmation that the barricades are in fact down and that those roads and railway are both passable,” Mr. McGuinty said before a caucus meeting.

“Beyond that, we'll be looking for co-operation with respect to apprehension of the individuals involved in last Friday's activities.”

The Six Nations protesters began their occupation of the housing development on Feb. 28, contending that the land was stolen from them more than 200 years ago.

On Monday, negotiations were halted after Mr. McGuinty said the swarming of an elderly couple's car and an assault on two news cameramen last week made it impossible to work together. 

Police issued warrants for six aboriginal people on a range of charges, including the attempted murder of a police officer, forcible confinement and robbery.*

Just more games.  The native criminals know that they screwed the pooch with public support when they jumped those people, and are taking down the barricades for now .  Rest assured they will put them back up at the slightest provication.  In the mean time, they can have fun screwing with the ones they know how to screw with the best:  Aunt Gwen and Dolton McGuinty.  As long as they provide even the thinnest illusion of progress or cooperation, those clowns will have outstanding warrants for them indefinately.


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## TMM (15 Jun 2006)

_"The Six Nations has its legal tradition that they contend governs their actions and legal processes."_

Fair enough to me when something occurs within the reserve. However, once it happens outside...


----------



## zipperhead_cop (15 Jun 2006)

TMM said:
			
		

> _"The Six Nations has its legal tradition that they contend governs their actions and legal processes."_
> 
> Fair enough to me when something occurs within the reserve. However, once it happens outside...



Yeah, until a girl gets raped by her father, and the solution is to have a counsel meeting and have a stern talking to the dad.  Then send the girl home with him.  And it has been terribly convenient for native organized crime to have these "legal traditions" in place.  
And yes, if some PC individual needs me to pony up case law or examples, I will endeavor to do so.  But not tonight.  
Regardless, they have abused their self governance time and again, and no longer deserve the autonomy they have enjoyed to this point.  IMO, especially after this incident, they need to prove that they can operate within the laws of this country and co-exist, not contra-exist.


----------



## Hot Lips (15 Jun 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Yeah, until a girl gets raped by her father, and the solution is to have a counsel meeting and have a stern talking to the dad.  Then send the girl home with him.  And it has been terribly convenient for native organized crime to have these "legal traditions" in place.
> And yes, if some PC individual needs me to pony up case law or examples, I will endeavor to do so.  But not tonight.
> Regardless, they have abused their self governance time and again, and no longer deserve the autonomy they have enjoyed to this point.  IMO, especially after this incident, they need to prove that they can operate within the laws of this country and co-exist, not contra-exist.


 I agree Zipperhead_cop...they have proven beyond a doubt in my mind that they are indeed unable to conduct themselves or govern themselves in an effective or appropriate manner.
They have overstepped their boundaries beyond an acceptable distance this time, IMO...and I am sick and tired of others in this country using whatever means to get away with acts of violence and violating others rights.

HL


----------



## zipperhead_cop (16 Jun 2006)

This will shed some light onto Aunt Gwen:

OPP flays feather symbol

Top-rank OPP officer condemns Ipperwash trinkets.
By PATRICK MALONEY, FREE PRESS REPORTER


FOREST -- When OPP Commissioner Gwen Boniface looks at the single feather depicted on "mementoes" made by officers since the 1995 Ipperwash standoff, she sees a highly charged reference to Dudley George. 
The family of the slain native protester, killed by an OPP sniper in the standoff, sees the mugs and T-shirts -- some of which depict an OPP patch looming over a fallen feather -- the exact same way. 
"She was pretty well right on when she talked about the feather," Dudley's brother, Sam George, said after Boniface yesterday expressed to the Ipperwash inquiry her displeasure with the images. 
"(It) represents to us a fallen warrior." 
Boniface's testimony yesterday -- she said the feather "signalled to me defeat, or (Dudley George's) death" -- was a watershed moment for the George clan, which accepted her remarks as honest and sincere. 
She's the first high-ranking officer to criticize the so-called mementoes, Sam George said. 
"What Commissioner Boniface was saying up there was sincere and it was coming from the heart," he said. "This is the first time we've heard that from any OPP officers that high in the organization." 
The latest such item cropped up in May -- a T-shirt featuring the OPP's emergency response team logo breaking an arrow, another native symbol. 
"I find it highly inappropriate," Boniface said. "It reflects the me-against-them (attitude). Again, the broken arrow I find offensive. I just find it was difficult." 
Boniface had plenty of experience handling native issues earlier in her career: In 1994 she was in charge of Ontario's First Nations policing and later taught First Nations issues at the University of Western Ontario. 
She said she played "no role" in the Ipperwash standoff in September 1995. 
Over the past decade, however, the OPP has taken strides to improve what she termed "native awareness," including making native-issues training for new recruits mandatory and hiring more aboriginal officers. 
In 1995, the OPP had fewer than 50 aboriginal officers. Now, of the 5,000 OPP members, about 130 are native. 
"Mementoes of the death of somebody are, I think, highly inappropriate," Boniface said. "It's highly inappropriate to do any memento . . . at all," 
Boniface's testimony is expected to wrap up today.  

She must have attended the Romeo Dalliare School of Forget From Where You Came From.   No doubt eyeballing a patronage appointment of some sort.  
So you can see, in the face of such disloyalty, and blatant disregard for the actual facts out of Ipperwash, the lads in Caledonia have no chance of doing anything effective.  I wish they would just walk away and make it a federal problem, but because they are providing professionalism in the face of administrative abuse, they won't.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt (16 Jun 2006)

sickening.  its the only word I have for it.


----------



## Centurian1985 (16 Jun 2006)

Hot Lips said:
			
		

> I agree Zipperhead_cop...they have proven beyond a doubt in my mind that they are indeed unable to conduct themselves or govern themselves in an effective or appropriate manner.
> They have overstepped their boundaries beyond an acceptable distance this time, IMO...and I am sick and tired of others in this country using whatever means to get away with acts of violence and violating others rights.



Have to agree, this has gone beyond the pale and needs to be corrected.  

Would like to point out though, that not all Aboriginal communities act this way or govern themselves in such an irresponsible manner.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt (16 Jun 2006)

Centurian1985 said:
			
		

> Have to agree, this has gone beyond the pale and needs to be corrected.
> 
> Would like to point out though, that not all Aboriginal communities act this way or govern themselves in such an irresponsible manner.



Thats actually is a very good point.  However, these folks are the one the spotlight is on.  Must peeve off the ones that are being drug into this unwillingly...


----------



## zipperhead_cop (16 Jun 2006)

Centurian1985 said:
			
		

> Would like to point out though, that not all Aboriginal communities act this way or govern themselves in such an irresponsible manner.



I also agree.  My sister is OPP Orillia (patrol) and she has nothing bad to say about the Anishnebek (apologies for butchering spelling) reserve or the native policing there.  I would just like to see them have the ability to lose their privileges when they screw up like this.  Everyone else loses rights and freedoms when they break the law, why not natives?  Then, maybe the members of the community that don't want their lives screwed up might put a bit of pressure on their own to not be such jackholes.  
However, since they are not currently being subjected to ANY form of law enforcement or rules as we would recognize them, why wouldn't they go on a mad tear?


----------



## 17thRecceSgt (17 Jun 2006)

And today...

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/06/17/caledonia.html


B.C. woman accused in Caledonia violence arrested
Last Updated Sat, 17 Jun 2006 15:33:20 EDT
CBC News 
Six Nations police have arrested one of seven people wanted on warrants after a series of clashes at an aboriginal land-claims standoff in Caledonia, Ont.

Audra Ann Taillefer, 45, of Victoria was taken into custody Friday on charges of intimidation and robbery after an elderly couple's vehicle was swarmed in the town south of Hamilton on June 9.

The elderly man, who was visiting from Simcoe, Ont., was taken to a nearby hospital after the incident as a precaution because he suffers from a heart condition, police said.

The B.C. woman will appear in a Cayuga, Ont., court at an unspecified date.


Ok.  There's one of them.  Now, what about the SOBs that took over the Border Patrol car and ran the OPP officer down.  Wow and it only took them how long to arrest 1 45 year old woman?  Kudo's.   :


----------



## zipperhead_cop (17 Jun 2006)

Six Nations is just trying to provide the illusion that they are complying with the law.  If you could prove that they know where the ones with the warrants are, and were refusing to arrest them, they would be in a Breach of Trust situation, since warrants REQUIRE arrests to be made.  
Don't be too surprised if it comes out in trial that they "forgot" to read her rights to counsel and therefore the charged gets tossed on a Charter application.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt (17 Jun 2006)

And they actually think that people are buying all this crap?

There apparantly is a large amount of happy grass out there...and people are using it. :


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## zipperhead_cop (17 Jun 2006)

It doesn't matter what people think or if it is accepted.  If there was a concern for what people think this cluster wouldn't have happened in the first place.  
Proven Canadian tactics:  non-compliance, violate law to the point of imminent action, make perfunctory gesture of compliance, waste time until media stops showing issue in unfavorable light, continue to demand concessions behind the scenes, resume non-compliance.  
The only happy grass being smoked is by you know who.........


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## Hot Lips (17 Jun 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> It doesn't matter what people think or if it is accepted.  If there was a concern for what people think this cluster wouldn't have happened in the first place.
> Proven Canadian tactics:  non-compliance, violate law to the point of imminent action, make perfunctory gesture of compliance, waste time until media stops showing issue in unfavorable light, continue to demand concessions behind the scenes, resume non-compliance.
> The only happy grass being smoked is by you know who.........


 Who?  :

Well there is certainly some underlying psychology in what you say...can't imagine any of it was well thought out though...

HL


----------



## a_majoor (18 Jun 2006)

Moving away from the subject of Caledonia for a moment, here is a case where "equality" results in a hilarious, if unintended outcome:

http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/archives/004151.html



> "Please Review Racial Purity Requirements Before Filing Your Complaint"
> 
> Well, I guess the next time someone spots a "Thanks for the truck, whitey" bumpersticker around town, they'll know who to complain to;
> 
> ...


----------



## paracowboy (18 Jun 2006)

a_majoor said:
			
		

> Moving away from the subject of Caledonia for a moment, here is a case where "equality" results in a hilarious, if unintended outcome:


more evidence to support my theory that most "leftist" types are closet bigots, who try to disguise their racism under a veneer of White Man's Burden "equality". Their hypocritical condescension sickens me.


----------



## vonGarvin (18 Jun 2006)

+1, para. +1.


----------



## zipperhead_cop (18 Jun 2006)

Thanks for that link a_majoor.  One of the posters there had a great sum up of the effects of this socialist pandering to special groups.  There doesn't appear to be a way to view the poster's handle, so I will simply indicate that these comments were not created by me (but I wish they had been)

*"But I know what I and many others here are trying to say: Let's treat minorities of any kind with the dignity of expecting them to live up to high standards. That's what I do with my challenged students, who often rise to the occasion. (THAT'S exciting!) Letting them off the hook is the worst kind of discrimination. It produces "toddlers", not responsible citizens.

In Canada, we now have a critical mass of "adult toddlers"--not just certain minorities who exploit the system, but the bureaucratic idiots (THEY'RE EVERWHERE!) who allow--heck, INVITE--them to, at the expense of the rest of us. (This is NOT a victimless gambit.) 

Unless standards in all kinds of systems are set fairly for everyone and our courts apply the rule of law in a culture- and colour-blind way, we're on the way to Armageddon. That's what you get when irresposibility and barbarism are rewarded, as they now are in Canada, far too often."*

I do believe that I will be using the phrase "adult toddlers" in my everyday vocabulary.


----------



## Pea (18 Jun 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> uuhhh, that would be me. Mommy is a squaw. Or at least, mostly. Daddy has some tepee-creepin' in his background. Makes me about 1/4 - 2/3 Indian. Card-carrying Metis, and fiercely proud of it. My family fought on both sides of the Riel Rebellion.



I came into this thread really late, so forgive me for backtracking so far. I am in pretty much the same boat... or uhh, tepee as Para on this one. Proud to have my Metis card as well thank you.



			
				paracowboy said:
			
		

> uuhhh, by immigrating here, they become Canadians. You don't mean to imply that only those born here are Canadians, do you? Or, is it a matter of generations born here that makes you Canadian? If that's the case, I want all you White folk gone. I got prior claim!
> (Well, you can leave the women.)



 :rofl: Wow, someone who seems to have the same humorous outlook on this. Thank you Para.



			
				paracowboy said:
			
		

> more evidence to support my theory that most "leftist" types are closet bigots, who try to disguise their racism under a veneer of White Man's Burden "equality". Their hypocritical condescension sickens me.



+100. This is the crap that gets to me, over and over. 

I know my comments added nothing to this discussion, but I had to comment.


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## Hot Lips (18 Jun 2006)

Love it...adult toddlers...lmao

Will slide that in somewhere in the near future.

HL


----------



## paracowboy (18 Jun 2006)

seriously, as a metis kid, I've never ran into nearly as much racism amongst Right-wing types, as I do from the staunch defenders of keeping me in my place, the Left. 

Right wing types don't seem to judge me, or my family, by any other criteria than our proven abilities. Leftists seem intent on excusing me for some perceived flaw, some lack of intellect or ability, saying that I need their assistance to function in society. "Poor little brown kid. Don't worry, we'll make sure you get everything you deserve. Don't try to earn it, you'll just get confused."

"Don't worry, my noble savage, you don't have to be as good/smart/determined as the white oppressors are, we'll make special rules to compensate for your inherited weakness."

It enfuriates me so, when I think of the times I've heard that message, with it's smarmy undertones of bigotry. I don't need a hand up, a hand out, or a hand at all. Just get out of my fucking way! I can do whatever I want on my own! MYSELF. My race (s) have no bearing on my abilities.

ok, I'm gonna leave this thread for awhile. I'm not contributing anything but bile.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt (18 Jun 2006)

Just let...people be people, and drop the labels and rest of the crap.

Sounds pretty easy to me.


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## vonGarvin (18 Jun 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> Just let...people be people, and drop the labels and rest of the crap.
> 
> Sounds pretty easy to me.


Now that's just wrong.  Way wrong....er...oh, wait.  Sorry, that was bang on.  

Please, carry on


----------



## Hot Lips (18 Jun 2006)

Can't we all get along...

HL


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## Pea (18 Jun 2006)

Mud Man, if only it were that easy.

I am going to agree with Para on this one. I am part of a Metis family, and I grew up in Northern Alberta. We are surrounded by reserves up there, of various statuses. When I was applying to College/Uni the career counsellor advised that I better make sure to put Metis on all my applications so that I would have a better way of getting into school. She told me that "not many Metis kids actually go to College anyways, so I was a shoe in". I think this is one of the most offensive things I have ever heard. I applied to school, as a "regular joe" and I got in just fine. I got in because I had the grades, and academic courses, not because someone feels the need to "help me along". I don't need help from anyone to accomplish anything. I rely on myself as a person with goals and morals, and a strong family upbringing. That's all that matters to me.

I am sick of being offered hand outs, or it being expected that I need them. My family does just fine with my Mom working full time like every other "regular joe" family does. My siblings and I are raised to work hard for everything we want, and to never expect anything we didn't rightfully earn. However, we are damn proud to be Metis. My Mom grew up on a Metis reserve, so she has lived through the crap people say and do because one is of Native decent and supposedly "needs everything given to them". 

When my Dad passed away, leaving my Mom with 4 children under the age of 13, we could have moved to said Metis reserve and gotten free housing. Well that would have made my Mom's life a million times easier. But, she chose to work 3 jobs and support us that way and continue paying for everything like she felt was right. Sure we struggled, but everything we have now we deserve. So for anyone to even hint at the fact that I NEED a handout, or am any less capable of excelling as others because of my hint of brown skin, or the card I carry, is absolutely disrespectful, and arrogant.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt (18 Jun 2006)

Seriously, get rid of all the "special groups" (not the hockey helmet ones in the showers...) and every is a on equal footing...takers?


----------



## camochick (18 Jun 2006)

Yeah cause getting rid of the "special groups" will solve everything. The government has made a mess of native issues for years. Perhaps coming up with an actual plan to help solve the problem would work better. It's easy to say things like that when you're on the outside looking in.


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## 17thRecceSgt (18 Jun 2006)

Hey, it could be a start.  I am not pretending to have any insight into the nuts and bolts of Native issues, cause well, I don't.

But, what could be wrong with making every single person (less criminals, and the like) equal?   

Human-freaking-beings.  I just think, IMHO, there are too many labels, groups, special this and special that.  

To me, there are 2 special types of people that stand out.  Elderly (they build this country, after all) and veterans.

Everyone is is/should be on the same playing fields...


----------



## zipperhead_cop (18 Jun 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> ok, I'm gonna leave this thread for awhile. I'm not contributing anything but bile.



Actually, that is the best post on this topic I have seen so far.  Pea makes good points too in her post.  
When I was at OPC, there were five natives that started the course.  One guy, without warning, just told one of his pod-mates "I'm gonna go home" and walked out.  Walked back to north of Sudbury.  It was the third time at OPC he had done that.  
There was a native girl in my class that was easily 80 lbs over her ideal weight.  She would quit doing anything that she didn't like, and would cry when criticized.  FYI, natives do not have to pass the physical component of police college here in Ontario.  She also got caught cheating in class, which was also over looked.  Regardless of race, she was one of the most useless individuals I have met to date.  
However, the other three guys were stellar.  More fit than any of us, and usually had marks around the 90th percentile.  They were openly disdainful of the girl in my class, and had no use for natives that did not want to pull their weight.  Two out of the three did not grow up on a reserve, and the third one was from out west where he was so shunned by his family for being a go getter that he swore he would never go back.  I would be happy to go through a door with any of the three guys that stayed.  
Everybody should be judged on their merits.  "You are only as good as your last performance".  Whoever said that was pretty close to the mark.


----------



## Hot Lips (18 Jun 2006)

+1 Zipperhead_cop

HL


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## Bobbyoreo (19 Jun 2006)

+2 Zipperhead!!!


----------



## Centurian1985 (19 Jun 2006)

a_majoor

Quote
http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/archives/004151.html
"Please Review Racial Purity Requirements Before Filing Your Complaint"
Well, I guess the next time someone spots a "Thanks for the truck, whitey" bumpersticker around town, they'll know who to complain to;
Trevor Baragar says he felt compelled to phone the police and the Saskatchewan Human Rights Commission after seeing someone display a sticker that reads, "Caution: I stop for all pedestrians, including natives".  Here though, is the really funny part;  He made a formal complaint to the Saskatchewan Human Rights Commission on Monday. He was told on Tuesday there was nothing it could do because he is non-aboriginal.  (Don't help the resident lefties with this one. Let them try to figure it out themselves.) Posted by Kate at June 18, 2006 01:25 AM


Wanted to point out that what that person at the SHRC said is not true - I dont know who they talked to, but it was either someone who didnt know what they were talking about or someone who just didnt want to deal with the complaint.    

You dont have to be a native to object a to anti-native statements, the same way you dont have to be Jewish to protest anti-holocaust statements.  This is one of the key principals behind the effort of eliminating prejudice and racism in the workplace, in that a third party who witnesses an event is encouraged to report any acts of prejudice or racism they witness (this same concept was used to deal with sexual harassment issues as well).  In the end, it doesnt matter what ethnicity (or sex) the person making the complaint is, what matters is whether a publicly visible statement or image is offensive and /or derogatory to a specific group of people...


----------



## zipperhead_cop (20 Jun 2006)

Well, back at it again.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/cbc/s/20062006/3/toronto-six-nations-protesters-dig-caledonia-burial-ground.html
Six Nations protesters are digging at the site of a disputed land claim in Caledonia in search of an ancient burial ground.

Initial reports indicated the protesters occupying the construction site near Hamilton might be building a bunker.
Buddy Martin, a man who identified himself as a co-ordinator of the project to the Hamilton Spectator, refused to provide details, except to say they are excavating the site in hopes of finding thousands of bodies they believe to be there. He stressed the digging was not for militant purposes.

A survey done earlier for the developers, Henco Industries, found fragments of aboriginal artifacts, but no evidence of a burial ground.

Last week the Ontario government bought the land occupied by native protesters from Henco.
Protesters have maintained the property is part of a land grant dating from 1784, but provincial and federal governments insist the land in question was surrendered in 1841.

The province announced the purchase during a court hearing called to discuss why police have not removed aboriginal protesters from the Douglas Creek Estates construction site.

On the same day, the government increased aid to compensate Caledonia-area businesses hurt by road blockades to about $1.7 million.

Protesters have been occupying the housing development since Feb. 28.

Meanwhile, a woman facing charges of intimidation and robbery in connection with the swarming of an elderly couple's vehicle on June 9 made a brief appearance in bail court in Cayuga Monday.

Audra Ann Taillefer, 45, of Victoria, B.C., is one of seven people wanted on warrant after a series of clashes at the land-claims standoff. Her hearing was postponed to an unspecified date.
Police are still searching for the six others in connection with a series of violent incidents near the native barricade on June 9.

Now, I'm no expert in exhumation, but I have to believe that any process that could appear to be digging a bunker is somewhat of a disrespectful way to rampage through what is now being flouted as the proverbial "sacred burial ground"?  Funny if their archaeological technique involves zig zag trenches with interlocking fields of fire.  
And nice to see the white mans guilt price tag starting at $1.7 million.  Then you can add the cost of the land itself, the overtime cost for the police etc.  
Plus, now that the Province owns the land, there is no reason to make anyone do anything.  Sweet!  Take over a piece of land by hostile force, then get the government to pay off the aggrieved people, and then stay.  It's flawless!


----------



## GAP (20 Jun 2006)

You will notice that the Feds are totally hands off on this thing...They are letting McGinty (or whatever his name is) take all the hits on this.


----------



## paracowboy (20 Jun 2006)

disgusting


----------



## Fishbone Jones (20 Jun 2006)

More of my tax dollars wasted by the McSquinty government. : The elections can't come soon enough


----------



## Hot Lips (20 Jun 2006)

Well doesn't seem like a very sacred thing to be doing.
Will this ever end  ???

HL


----------



## UberCree (20 Jun 2006)

Are our laws being applied equally?

No definitely not.  
Government of Canada makes agreements and selectively chooses to disregard them at times that are convenient to Canada.  Winnipeg city rightfully belongs to the Metis as an example.  Many many agreements, law abiding agreements, have been discarded over the years.  The law is a shady grey area that I know very little about.  The countries rights trump individual rights however, I think we'd all agree on that.


----------



## zipperhead_cop (20 Jun 2006)

Having been to Winnipeg, I think it would be a nice gesture to give it back  ;D
Thanks for popping in, Uber.


----------



## 2 Cdo (20 Jun 2006)

UberCree said:
			
		

> Are our laws being applied equally?
> 
> No definitely not.
> Government of Canada makes agreements and selectively chooses to disregard them at times that are convenient to Canada.  Winnipeg city rightfully belongs to the Metis as an example.  Many many agreements, law abiding agreements, have been discarded over the years.  The law is a shady grey area that I know very little about.  The countries rights trump individual rights however, I think we'd all agree on that.



I agree that our laws are not being applied equally, natives attacking innocent people in broad day light and no arrests! Enough said!


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## Bobbyoreo (21 Jun 2006)

"Having been to Winnipeg, I think it would be a nice gesture to give it back  
Thanks for popping in, Uber.  "


What would you say if they wanted TO......then again I would give TO to anyone. 

Im only having fun with you Zipperhead...Im not trying to turn this into my cities better then your city......


----------



## TMM (21 Jun 2006)

Bobbyoreo said:
			
		

> What would you say if they wanted TO......then again I would give TO to anyone.



Tham thar's fightin' words luv


----------



## zipperhead_cop (22 Jun 2006)

Bobbyoreo said:
			
		

> What would you say if they wanted TO......then again I would give TO to anyone.
> 
> Im only having fun with you Zipperhead...Im not trying to turn this into my cities better then your city......



I bailed on TO a long time ago.  So did my family.  You can give it to the Saudi's if you want.  Maybe they could purge all the hippie clowns.   :blotto:


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt (28 Jun 2006)

Anyone disagree with the following assessment?


Matthew.  



> Link:  http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=a575846e-7386-4de5-9fc2-b751897d099a
> 
> McGuinty's Caledonia gambit sets catastrophic precedent
> David Warren, The Ottawa Citizen
> ...


----------



## GAP (28 Jun 2006)

I don't quite "get" the masculinity issue here, but his comments are dead on regarding enforcing (or in this case - NOT ) the law


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## zipperhead_cop (28 Jun 2006)

GAP said:
			
		

> I don't quite "get" the masculinity issue here, but his comments are dead on regarding enforcing (or in this case - NOT ) the law



+1.  I think the emphasis on the male/female at the beginning kind of prejudices the reading of the rest of the article.  Too bad, because the rest is right on and I'm betting there are more than a few people who wouldn't have finished reading because of the abrasive opening.


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## zipperhead_cop (2 Jul 2006)

If anyone is interested, here is a link to the citizens gripes at Caledonia:

http://www.caledoniawakeupcall.com/

I only got it tonight, and have not had a chance to check it for content.  I guess that is a disclaimer of sorts.  However, if the site is great, I will likely take credit for bringing it forward  ;D
I did however find this gem:


----------



## 17thRecceSgt (2 Jul 2006)

Police plan heavy presence in Caledonia over weekend
  
By John Burman
The Hamilton Spectator
CALEDONIA (Jun 30, 2006) 
Provincial police plan a heavy presence as the town celebrates Canada Day on the weekend.

*Acting OPP Superintendent Doug Babbitt * said police realize "there is a level of tension arising from the (Douglas Creek Estates) land reclamation issue," and will be there to keep the peace.

So did they shite-can the puppet????


----------



## zipperhead_cop (2 Jul 2006)

Probably not.  Acting rank is often used when someone is on vacation.  The fact that he refers to "there is a level of tension arising from the (Douglas Creek Estates) land reclamation issue" tells us that it will be more of the same.  
Yesterday I talked to a buddy of mine that is there right now.  He cautioned me that the line he was on was being monitored by the brass, and indicated to me that he could not speak freely.  I'm so thrilled Gwen is moving heaven and earth to shut down her men, and let the criminals enjoy their continuing party.


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## Hot Lips (2 Jul 2006)

Unbelievable Zipperhead_cop
So more innocent people will inevitably be harmed before this is resolved then?

HL


----------



## zipperhead_cop (2 Jul 2006)

Hot Lips said:
			
		

> Unbelievable Zipperhead_cop
> So more innocent people will inevitably be harmed before this is resolved then?
> 
> HL



In reality, yes.  
Doesn't have to be that way (emphasis on innocent people not being harmed) but there are no stones for it politically.  
Dolton will throw money at them, and reward criminality.  Hope no one had any summer plans for Sauble beach.


----------



## Derka Derka Jihad (2 Jul 2006)

Piper said:
			
		

> If it had been a white guy saying it, he'd have been drawn and quartered in the media and left to rot in prison. My faith in our justice system has gone into the negatives, it was at zero but now....



Well said.  It is appalling that the law is not being applied equally.  We have 'hate laws' but if a member of a 'protected' group can break these laws at will-and even profit from record sales in Canada while doing so.

A rap artist by the name of Bizarre, (He's black.), released a song with the group D-12 entitled "crap on You".  It includes the following lyrics sung by him:

And all women ain't crap
Only good for cooking cleaning and XXXXXXXXXXXXX- and that's it

http://www.lyricsfreak.com/d/d12/crap+on+you_20035554.html

There's more similar references in this song, including a reference to intercourse with a 12 year old babysitter.  And our govt is too toothless to intrude on 'rights' of these 'artists' to publish garbage like this...but I suspect if a WASP espoused these convictions they would be savaged by the media and the legal system. 


(Moderator edit to remove offensive comment.)


----------



## 17thRecceSgt (2 Jul 2006)

I am curious how you know the words to that "song" (if that what you want to call it).  :-\


----------



## zipperhead_cop (9 Jul 2006)

If anybody feels like having their say on Aunt Gwen, maybe you would be interested in this link:

http://www.petitiononline.com/Caledon1/petition.html


----------



## 17thRecceSgt (9 Jul 2006)

SO Zip.

whats the SITREP as of today??

Mud


----------



## The_Falcon (9 Jul 2006)

GAP said:
			
		

> I don't quite "get" the masculinity issue here, but his comments are dead on regarding enforcing (or in this case - NOT ) the law


 Really I got the intent. He talked about our stereotypical views of masculine/femine (weak female/strong male), and said lets put aside actual gender discuss the ideas behind masculinity/feminity, ergo the author was refering to the idea that people (men/women) who are "masculine" have the metaphorical cojones to deal with the tough issue and if if need be take the heat for their actions.  Whereas those who are feminine (again male or female) are the opposite.  And right now, our Premier, OPP Brass, and other government officials involved in this mess are being quite feminine in thier actions.  This is just IMHO though, what I thought the author was trying to get across.


----------



## zipperhead_cop (9 Jul 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> SO Zip.
> 
> whats the SITREP as of today??
> 
> Mud



Just a big holding pattern.  The province bought the land, and is not making the native criminals leave.  So, we can read from that if you occupy an area with violence, and you are native, expect the province to buy out the land from under the white devils feet and give it to you.  Sounds like a great precedent to set.  OPP wise they are settling into a Cypress-like long term operation (more money squandered on overtime by the province).   Look to see a Timmies open near the non-disputed part of the main road soon.


----------



## purple peguin (10 Jul 2006)

Todays laws for youngersters are not tought enough. In my opinion they can get away with anything. These children should have the same laws as adults due and even that those should be more strict too!


----------



## zipperhead_cop (11 Jul 2006)

East coast shooter said:
			
		

> Todays laws for youngersters are not tought enough. In my opinion they can get away with anything. These children should have the same laws as adults due and even that those should be more strict too!



Hey, welcome to the discussion!

Now feel free to actually read what it is all about and see that it is dealing with NATIVE issues.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt (12 Jul 2006)

Frog Fred friend fight foo fie  fum said:
			
		

> Todays laws for youngersters are not tought enough. In my opinion they can get away with anything. These children should have the same laws as adults due and even that those should be more strict too!



OKay I know this guy is banned...but...wtf?  

Is that a tongue twister or what.  I am sure the "spell checker" would have crashed if applied on that one!


----------



## zipperhead_cop (12 Jul 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> OKay I know this guy is banned...but...wtf?
> 
> Is that a tongue twister or what.  I am sure the "spell checker" would have crashed if applied on that one!



Something odd happened.  He was eastcoast shooter when he put up that post, and I don't remember him having nearly 160 posts.  Plus, his email address is a fake url that leads to some site called penis island.  Go figure.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (12 Jul 2006)

:rofl: penis island  :cheers:


----------



## zipperhead_cop (12 Jul 2006)

recceguy said:
			
		

> :rofl: penis island  :cheers:



Perhaps I read that wrong.  I guess it's penis land.  Who knew such an area would be land locked?  

Hey, here is a great real estate offer!  Jump on board soon, quantities are limited.  Operators are standing by at 888-310-1122.  Just ask for Gwen.


----------



## zipperhead_cop (17 Jul 2006)

Here is a great letter that I came across.  I don't know if it ever got printed (I highly doubt it).

To: Toronto Sun ; the barrie examiner ; Letter to Editor-Barrie Advance 
Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2006 6:11 PM
Subject: Letter to Editor - Money for Victims


On page 17 of the Sunday Sun, on July 16, 2006, I read a large court notice about the settlement money that's been set aside by the government regarding former Aboriginal students of residential schools and their families. Hearings will be held across Canada, and "at least 1.9 BILLION dollars" has been earmarked for these payouts.

Money for healing programs, research, documentation and community projects is in the range of over 200 MILLION dollars. "You don't have to show you were abused to get a common experience payment". You can appeal decisions if you don't agree with the settlement amount, and your legal representation will be paid for.

On page 28 of the same paper on the same date, there was an article that said the victims of abuse at a New Brunswick reform school would not be receiving any financial aid in their prosecution of a guard who was found guilty of sexually abusing children of the centre between the mid 1960's and the 1980's. He has admitted to abusing over 200 children that were sent to live at the school. 

Two situations where kids were placed in government-run residences. Two situations where there was abuse and damage done to kids. If tax payers are forking over billions of dollars to one set of people for transgressions of the past (that most people today had no control over or involvement in), what's a few more million for the Fredericton victims? If the government thinks that heaping a never-ending pile of money onto victims is a way to correct the past (which it isn't - that is an individual journey), then why are some victims more worthy than others? What kind of precedent and message is going on here???  Yes, one is federal and one is provincial - something should be worked out nevertheless. Can someone say with a straight face that there couldn't be transfer payments made to help provinces with a victim fund? This kind of blatant inconsistency towards Canadians is outrageous and unacceptable. Help no one, or help everyone.

What was the Animal Farm quote?  "Some animals are more equal than others".

Here is another tidbit I came across.  Who wants to bet that it ends up being an area that was "stolen" 200 years ago.  Haven't heard anything to that effect, but it wouldn't surprise me.  

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/17072006/3/calgary-mining-company-finds-gold-minerals-near-bathurst.html


----------



## 17thRecceSgt (18 Jul 2006)

I am a firm believer that what may be called "discrimination" in some (and I do mean in some only) cases with certain groups in this country is the special treatment they receive from the government or what have you, that the rest of us don't/never did/never will get.  So THAT treatment is resented or produces ill feelings.

IF that theory is in any way correct, then the groups DEMANDING special treatment, and the people providing special treatment, are the ones at fault.

Not me, and others like me, for calling people on this crap, and not letting it die.

All the same, equal in the eyes of the government and country.  Until then...the problems will continue.

And I am sorry, if something, anyone alive NOW who is claiming this right and that right from something that happened 400 years ago...guess what?  You weren't here then.  Give it up.


----------



## George Wallace (18 Jul 2006)

If you want to open up a real can of worms.....What if in the recent killings of two Mounties in Saskatchewan, with one of them being Native, ended in a scenario like this:  Accused is captured, and taken to the Reserve where he sits in a Healing Circle.  Would there be any Equality or Fair Justice applied in this scenario?


----------



## zipperhead_cop (22 Jul 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> If you want to open up a real can of worms.....What if in the recent killings of two Mounties in Saskatchewan, with one of them being Native, ended in a scenario like this:  Accused is captured, and taken to the Reserve where he sits in a Healing Circle.  Would there be any Equality or Fair Justice applied in this scenario?



No problem.  As long as the circle is a loop of rope, and the healing comes in the form of becoming one with the earth mother in the form of haning by the neck in one of her trees.


----------



## The_Falcon (23 Jul 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> No problem.  As long as the circle is a loop of rope, and the healing comes in the form of becoming  one with the earth mother in the form of haning by the neck in one of her trees.



Or decomposing in the ground. Its quicker and it can be considered recyclying (for all the left wing hippy types)!


----------



## George Wallace (23 Jul 2006)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Or decomposing in the ground. Its quicker and it can be considered recyclying (for all the left wing hippy types)!



That would be called "fertilizer".


----------



## vonGarvin (29 Jul 2006)

She's stepping down
(shared in accordance with the applicable act)
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2006/07/28/boniface.html
The commissioner of the Ontario Provincial Police is leaving the force for a policing job in Ireland, amid criticism for the way she handled a native occupation of a disputed housing development in Caledonia.
Gwen Boniface joined the OPP in 1977 and in 1998 became the first woman commissioner of the provincial force.
She will take official leave in October to join a newly established three-person panel that will oversee Ireland's 13,000-member National Police Force, Ontario Community Safety Minister Monte Kwinter said Friday.
The announcement of Boniface's departure comes about five months after aboriginal protesters began occupying the Caledonia construction site, maintaining that the land is part of a land grant from the late 1700s.
The provincial and federal governments have maintained the land was later surrendered.
*Kwinter told CBC News that Boniface's departure has nothing to do with the Caledonia standoff.*
He said Boniface was made an offer she couldn't refuse, and added her decision was both a personal and professional one.
But MPP Bob Runciman, a former provincial solicitor general, said the timing is suspect.
"It may be in some way shape or form linked to what's happened with the Caledonia occupation situation for the past months, and the non-confidence motions in her leadership which several elements of the Ontario Provincial Police Association have been carrying out," Runciman told CBC.
Runciman said he doesn't know the outcome of the non-confidence votes, but said they had in fact taken place.
*Commissioner under fire*

*Critics say OPP, under Boniface, treated native protesters differently during the sometimes-violent dispute.*
In fact, some Caledonia residents began circulating an internet petition earlier this month calling for her resignation.
The petition said Boniface allegedly failed to protect the people of Caledonia as well as the town's power station, bridges, roads and homes during the protest.
But in a statement earlier this month, Boniface said she is proud of her force, and dismissed accusations that her officers treated aboriginals differently.
"I think the right decisions have been made and they've been carried out by competent men and women in the OPP," she said.
There will be a Canada-wide search for Boniface's replacement as commissioner.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt (29 Jul 2006)

I think I have a target balloon here, that would be an improvement at this point in time.   ;D


----------



## zipperhead_cop (29 Jul 2006)

I'm just wondering what the Irish did that was so bad.   ???

I think I'm gonna be the first to go get a Leprechaun status card and go start making land grabs now.  I'll claim that it's an ancient gold burial ground, and the Irish oppressors are "always after me lucky charms".   Of course, that land will just _happen_ to be on the estate of a huge Irish castle.  
Hey, don't laugh at me!!  My people have passed down this land by word of mouth for thousands of years.  Who are you to tell me that another Leprechaun didn't tell me about it  :threat:
Here, I have a photo of the ceremonial chamber where the map to the treasure is kept.  And I'll fight to the death to defend it!


----------



## GAP (29 Jul 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> I'm just wondering what the Irish did that was so bad.   ???



It's kinda like good cheer, even this stuff, you have to spread around a little bit...dilute the waters, so to speak  

pssst.....We used that map...didn't find anything, but hey.... :


----------



## zipperhead_cop (29 Jul 2006)

GAP said:
			
		

> It's kinda like good cheer, even this stuff, you have to spread around a little bit...dilute the waters, so to speak
> 
> pssst.....We used that map...didn't find anything, but hey.... :



The O-dots I know are thrilled to see Aunt Gwen go, but there isn't a big bright torch being held out for her replacement.  Recall we still are stuck with a Lieberal government here in Ontario.  

And obviously you didn't find the treasure.  You didn't have the ruby encrusted moccasins.  Duh.


----------



## GAP (29 Jul 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> The O-dots I know are thrilled to see Aunt Gwen go, but there isn't a big bright torch being held out for her replacement.  Recall we still are stuck with a Lieberal government here in Ontario.



my sympathies...but then again...we have NDP government without the Layton effect.  ;D



> And obviously you didn't find the treasure.  You didn't have the ruby encrusted moccasins.  Duh.



Oh, your really needed those? No wonder  ???


----------



## rmacqueen (29 Jul 2006)

Unfortunately, we are seeing the effects of Ipperwash here.  What cop in their right mind would run the risk of destroying their career by actually enforcing the laws during a native occupation?  The second guessing of police actions when dealing with natives has destroyed any chance of the police doing anything.  If they do nothing they are critisised but if they actually act then they risk their very livelyhood being taken away.

As for the laws being applied equally, in the case of the 17 alleged terrorists who were arrested, the leader was reported by a federal MP for saying "Canadian troops were (in Afghanistan) to rape Muslim women," and nothing was done.  What do you think?


----------



## The_Falcon (29 Jul 2006)

Na na na nah, Na na na nah, Hey Heeey GOODBYE!!! 



			
				rmacqueen said:
			
		

> As for the laws being applied equally, in the case of the 17 alleged terrorists who were arrested, the leader was reported by a *federal MP for saying "Canadian troops were (in Afghanistan) to rape Muslim women," and nothing was done.  What do you think?
> *




That kind of a statement wouldn't surprise me however, I still think it is suspect.  Do you have a source/link, you could provide to substansiate it?


----------



## rmacqueen (30 Jul 2006)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Na na na nah, Na na na nah, Hey Heeey GOODBYE!!!
> [/b]
> 
> That kind of a statement wouldn't surprise me however, I still think it is suspect.  Do you have a source/link, you could provide to substansiate it?



Look under Qayyum Abdul Jamal at http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060605/terror_suspects_060605/20060605


----------



## The_Falcon (30 Jul 2006)

My bad I misread your statement and the article, I thought the MP had made that statement concerning the CF.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt (9 Aug 2006)

and the soap-opera continues...

http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/TopStories/ContentPosting.aspx?newsitemid=CTVNews%2f20060809%2fcaledonia_ruling_060809&feedname=CTV-TOPSTORIES_V2&showbyline=True

Ontario to appeal ruling on Caledonia standoff 
09/08/2006 6:08:14 PM  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ontario will appeal a Superior Court judge's order to end negotiations in a five-month long standoff over a land dispute in Caledonia, Ont.


CTV.ca News Staff 

Tensions ramped up Tuesday as aboriginal protesters continued their occupation of the housing development.  

Attorney General Michael Bryant said Wednesday that the province will argue the court has no jurisdiction to end talks aimed at resolving a native land occupation on the Douglas Creek Estates site near Caledonia. 

"One of the grounds of the appeal will be that the courts have no jurisdiction to order the parties to cease negotiations, which we will argue (are) in the public interest and the best way to resolve this dispute," Bryant told reporters. 

Bryant said both the province and federal governments are in agreement on the appeal, and they believe negotiations are the best way to resolve the outstanding land claim. 

He says the appeal could take weeks, but the government will act as "expeditiously as possible." 

Federal Indian Affairs Minister Jim Prentice said Ottawa supports the appeal as well as "getting back to the negotiating table." 

"And as Ontario moves forward with the stay application, and the appeal, we're anxious to get all our negotiators back to the table so we can get this resolved," Prentice told CTV Newsnet. 

Tensions arose Tuesday as aboriginal protesters continued their occupation of the housing development after Superior Court Justice David Marshall ordered negotiations to end until the rule of law is upheld and protesters left the site. 

In spite of the appeal, Bryant said the province will halt negotiations until the Ontario Court of Appeal either overturns the judge's ruling, or orders a stay pending appeal. 

"The reasons for judgment do appear to be clear," Bryant said. "We will comply with that order until such time as the order is either stayed, or suspended, or overturned." 

Many are blaming Judge Marshall's ruling for increasing tension in the town. 

Protesters and hundreds of Caledonia residents faced each other in a tense standoff that was dispersed by police early Wednesday. 

There was no violence, but both groups hurled insults at each other. At one point, First Nations protesters sprayed some residents with water using a fire hose. 

The Ontario Provincial Police moved extra police cruisers into the area Wednesday in an effort to keep things calm. 

"Certainly everyone is just a little cautious today. There is an air of tension here ... and everyone is appealing for calm but still you get the feeling that everyone's on edge," said CTV Kitchener reporter David Imrie. 

"Back in the neighbourhood where the OPP have set up a new sort of perimeter, what (the protesters) are doing there, according to one officer, is restricting traffic through the area where the houses border on the housing development on the disputed land. And they are trying to keep non-residents from moving through that area." 

However, the protesters did not blockade the road through the town -- a move that had previously created much friction between protesters and Caledonia residents. 

"We did close off the front entrance (of the development) ... it's just a safety issue," Janie Jamieson, a Six Nations spokesperson, told The Canadian Press Tuesday night. 

She said that barrier was set up after "a drunken non-native from Caledonia approached me and grabbed a hold of me and assaulted me twice." 

Fragile situation 

Former Ontario premier David Peterson, who was appointed by the province to begin negotiations in the dispute, said the order has upset "a very fragile situation." 

"It's been a very volatile and tender situation," said Peterson. "My biggest concern is that . . . some strange accident could happen.'' 

Peterson is no longer involved in the negotiations. He said he couldn't understand how Marshall could "stop people from talking." 

Marshall issued a court order in March for police to evict the protesters and for the barricades on nearby railway tracks to be lifted. 

Lawyers for the Ministry of the Attorney General have argued that Marshall's orders have been enforced, pointing out that police laid 53 charges against 28 people. 

Marshall took the rare step of calling representatives from the province, police and aboriginals into court to explain their actions. 

The Douglas Creek Estates site is at the centre of a battle over land rights that began when Six Nations protesters set up barricades blocking the road into the development in February, saying the land was illegally taken from them 200 years ago. 

A court order evicting them has not been enforced. 

"It is a difficult dispute and we feel for the residents," said Prentice. 

"This dispute is one of the oldest and most protracted land claim issues in Canada. It actually goes back to the days after the American Revolution and the First Nations, the Iroquois and Mohawk, feel very strongly about the promises that were made to them." 

In June, the province bought out the developer for $12.3 million, but the land remains held in trust by the province. 

With files from The Canadian Press


----------



## zipperhead_cop (9 Aug 2006)

It will be interesting to see what Jay Hope has to say about all this and how he handles it.  Hopefully he will go all "Queens Park" on them, but I doubt it.


----------



## FastEddy (11 Aug 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> It will be interesting to see what Jay Hope has to say about all this and how he handles it.  Hopefully he will go all "Queens Park" on them, but I doubt it.




I don't know about you, but every time I read the title of this tread, I don't know whether to "LAUGH or CRY".

Cheers.


----------



## a_majoor (11 Aug 2006)

We will reap what is sowed:

http://www.stevejanke.com/archives/190209.php



> The problem is that a propensity for violence is exactly what requires a firm response. Violence by any other group other than the State strikes at the heart of what defines the State. The core definition of the State is that it is the sole entity that can use violence as a way of imposing its will. The rest of us do not indulge in personal revenge when we are wronged. Instead, we go to the State with our complaint, and when the State decides it is necessary, uses violence on our behalf to rectify the situation.
> 
> We call it the court system.
> 
> ...





http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060810.IBBITSON10/TPStory/TPNational/Ontario/



> THE CALEDONIA STANDOFF
> 
> There is the principled rule of law, and then there is reality
> 
> ...


----------



## Old Sweat (11 Aug 2006)

The statement that the province has no authority to call in the troops is patently untrue. Under the Aid of the Civil Power regulations of the National Defence Act, a provincial attorney general has the authority to requisition military support from the Chief of the Defence Staff in the event of a real or potential insurrection. The CDS has no choice in the matter in that he must respond. However he is responsible for determining the level and extent of the response. As the saying goes, based on his assessment, he can send JTF2 or the Central Band. (The act is written this way to protect the CDS from legal actions if it is later determined that an insurrection did not occur.)


----------



## Gunnar (11 Aug 2006)

I rather like the idea of sending in the Central Band....maybe turn this farce into a musical!

 ;D


----------



## zipperhead_cop (11 Aug 2006)

As much as I would love to see the JTF go in and turn a bunch of asshats into pudding, I don't think that is a good idea on two fronts
a) The political will to confront natives is so weak, I would hate to see a quality unit get disbanded for some perceived slight, ala the Airborne Regiment.  Not an indictment of their abilities, conversely I think they would be too effective.  
b) If the OPP ever want to be able to do any credible policing in any area that deals with natives, they have to get this one done.  There is no reason that police could not get this thing sorted out, they just need a green light and a political back up.  Oh, and a heap of counter snipers along the high points in the area.  
Trying to pawn this off on the Fed is beyond pathetic.  I would love to see Dolton and whoever is running the puzzle palace in Orillia get jailed for contempt of court.


----------



## paracowboy (12 Aug 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> b) If the OPP ever want to be able to do any credible policing in any area that deals with natives, they have to get this one done.  There is no reason that police could not get this thing sorted out, they just need a green light and a political back up.  Oh, and a heap of counter snipers along the high points in the area.
> Trying to pawn this off on the Fed is beyond pathetic.  I would love to see Dolton and whoever is running the puzzle palace in Orillia get jailed for contempt of court.


true words.


----------



## a_majoor (19 Aug 2006)

More on the Judge trying to reestablish the rule of law in Caledonia:

http://www.stevejanke.com/archives/193095.php



> According to an email being sent around, Ontario's Liberal government under Dalton McGuinty cannot appeal Justice David Marshall's order to suspend the negotiations with the natives occupying disputed land in Caledonia. That's because, if I understand this correctly, Justice Marshall worded his ruling as advice as opposed to a point of law. And this might have implications for the future.
> 
> Here's the email, apparently sent to Caledonia Mayor Marie Trainer:
> 
> ...


----------



## zipperhead_cop (19 Aug 2006)

Funny thing is, the area where the barricade is set up was never part of the native land grab disputed area.  Where they are blocking the roadway's is clearly Provincial property, as a highway extends center from the roadway, all the way to the opposite property lines.  
Unless the natives want to say that any roads running through their reservations are purely native owned, and then can take over the cost of road maintenance themselves.  
On a counter note however, in talking to the OPP guys around here that have gone up for their voluntary one week "tour" they all have said that the white townsfolk are the ones who are hardest to keep peaceful and are the ones most often starting up the unrest.  However, I can certainly see why they are frustrated.  Uncle Dolton didn't buy them a multi million dollar resort.
Oh, and guess who the OPP are directed to go after when the pissing match starts?


----------



## 17thRecceSgt (19 Aug 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Funny thing is, the area where the barricade is set up was never part of the native land grab disputed area.  Where they are blocking the roadway's is clearly Provincial property, as a highway extends center from the roadway, all the way to the opposite property lines.
> Unless the natives want to say that any roads running through their reservations are purely native owned, and then can take over the cost of road maintenance themselves.
> On a counter note however, in talking to the OPP guys around here that have gone up for their voluntary one week "tour" they all have said that the white townsfolk are the ones who are hardest to keep peaceful and are the ones most often starting up the unrest.  However, I can certainly see why they are frustrated.  Uncle Dolton didn't buy them a multi million dollar resort.
> Oh, and guess who the OPP are directed to go after when the pissing match starts?



I am betting its NOT the...Maple Leafs?  

 ;D

I for one cannot believe how long this is been ongoing...

How voluntary is this one-week "tour"?


----------



## zipperhead_cop (20 Aug 2006)

Fairly voluntary.  At first they had a hard time getting people, but now it has taken on a Cypress-like posture.  All the good food you can eat, heaps of overtime and for the most part sit around and stare at people (not intended as a flame for anyone who went to Cypress).  A few guys are going back for their second and third stint.  
If the Gov ever gets it's shyte sorted out and decides to shut down the insurrection, whoever is on duty at that point better be able to shift from police mode to army mode pretty quick.  Because you can bet the natives have their range cards all drawn up and dialed in.


----------



## TCBF (20 Aug 2006)

Cyprus.  C-Y-P-R-U-S.  "Cypress" is a tree....


 ;D


----------



## zipperhead_cop (20 Aug 2006)

My over-reliance on the spell checker has been outted.  Damn.   :-X :-[


----------



## 17thRecceSgt (20 Aug 2006)

TCBF said:
			
		

> Cyprus.  C-Y-P-R-U-S.  "Cypress" is a tree....
> 
> 
> ;D



Jees, TCBF, you talk like someone who has been around for awhile... ;D

"the silent follower"


----------



## TCBF (20 Aug 2006)

" But Justice Marshall is saying that in his opinion, the negotiations lack legitimacy when they take place in an environment in the Rule of Law has been suspended. That government shouldn't sign any agreements under these conditions because such an agreement might be challenged."

- Interesting.  Now, in a prison, when a guard is taken hostage - an act in violation of the law - does the prison staff not have to 'negotiate' with the kidnappers/prisoner's committee rather than 'enforcing the rule of law' by capping the hostage takers and freeing the guard?

- A criminal shoots you on your lawn and occupies your house.  The police show up.  While you are bleeding to death, the criminal says that he will kill himself if they try and help you.  Well? Do they help you or continue to negotiate with the criminal?

Never underestimate the power careerism has over justice.

(If you think my examples are hypothetical, so is ROE training.  ).


----------



## zipperhead_cop (20 Aug 2006)

Sadly, even with your examples that have clear-as-day answers, there are some who would start with the "well, it depends if..." or "You would have to consider..." just for the sake of never committing to anything.  



			
				TCBF said:
			
		

> Never underestimate the power careerism has over justice.



You might as well go after your career, since justice doesn't exist.


----------



## rmacqueen (20 Aug 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> You might as well go after your career, since justice doesn't exist.



Sadly, this is a situation of our governments making by publicly second guessing the actions of the OPP at Ipperwash.  The scary part is the police are more and more starting to appear as being run by the government rather than being an independent force and, although I can't see this happening here, this is how police states start.  It is a slippery slope to start down when rule of law becomes secondary to the will of a government


----------



## TCBF (21 Aug 2006)

Done through budgeting: Harass sixty years old duck hunters with a billion dollar gun grab program - funding approved.  Investigate where the hundreds of millions of dollars went that was spent on the software contracts for the gun grab program - funding not approved.


----------



## zipperhead_cop (22 Aug 2006)

TCBF said:
			
		

> Done through budgeting: Harass sixty years old duck hunters with a billion dollar gun grab program - funding approved.  Investigate where the hundreds of millions of dollars went that was spent on the software contracts for the gun grab program - funding not approved.



But the registry will reduce gun crime!  Didn't you hear?  










 :dontpanic:  Hah!  I kid.  I'm such a kidder.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt (22 Aug 2006)

Wow.  I never thought this thread would survive this long when I started it!


----------



## zipperhead_cop (22 Aug 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> Wow.  I never thought this thread would survive this long when I started it!



Native insurgents still suck, and Dolton and friends are still acting like discreditable twits.  And don't think that it won't get hot again either.


----------



## TCBF (23 Aug 2006)

People will go home when it snows.  They will start thining out once the NHL picks up again.

I am SO cynical...


----------



## rmacqueen (25 Aug 2006)

And now the Ipperwash inquiry is finished (finally) and you can bet Harris will be blamed.  Funny, no mention of the guns that were there.


----------



## TCBF (27 Aug 2006)

But only the OPP had guns!

 ;D


----------



## rmacqueen (27 Aug 2006)

TCBF said:
			
		

> But only the OPP had guns!


 :rofl:


----------



## zipperhead_cop (27 Aug 2006)

TCBF said:
			
		

> But only the OPP had guns!
> 
> ;D



HAH!  Yeah, only the OPP.  God knows the number of times I have opened up on people for walking around with broom stick handles.  Lethal devices, those corn brooms.   :


----------



## 17thRecceSgt (27 Aug 2006)

Come on Zip, you know that only peaceful "protestors" were present there... ;D


----------



## zipperhead_cop (28 Aug 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> Come on Zip, you know that only peaceful "protestors" were present there... ;D



Oh, absolutely.  Just like the peaceful protesters at Oka, and the peaceful ones in Caladonia right now.  I'd be peaceful too if I got money thrown at me whenever I bitched about something that happened to my family 300 years ago.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt (28 Aug 2006)

I can't believe this crap up there is STILL ongoing.

Go outside your home, barricade it, and the road you live on.  See how long it takes for the cop's to show up, and if they just stand there.

I don't understand.  Wait.  Liberal government in Ont.   :


----------



## zipperhead_cop (28 Aug 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> I can't believe this crap up there is STILL ongoing.



Yeah, funny that.  I would be interested to see what would happen if they pulled some crap like this in Alberta (the last common sense province it would seem).


----------



## aluc (29 Aug 2006)

http://www.torontosun.ca/News/Canada/2006/08/29/1783477


E-mail threats over MPP's remark
Tue, August 29, 2006


By ANTONELLA ARTUSO, QUEEN'S PARK BUREAU CHIEF




The local MPP for Caledonia says he has received anonymous threats telling him to "go back to Europe."

Toby Barrett, the Conservative MPP for Haldimand-Norfolk-Brant, initially blamed organized crime yesterday for the native barricades in Caledonia but later retracted his comments.

"I got a message, 'Go back to Europe.' I have been told I'm not welcome on Six Nations," Barrett said.

Conflict has flared up repeatedly between Six Nations protesters and their non-native neighbours at the occupied site of a former housing development in Caledonia.

'NO-GO ZONE'

Natives are negotiating with representatives of the Ontario and federal governments to resolve a longstanding land claim.

Barrett said it's well known that native communities are a "no-go zone" for the OPP.

Six Nations neighbours are speculating the Mohawk Warriors and their criminal partners may be trying to get a casino or facilitate the smuggling of illegal cigarettes with the barricade, Barrett said early yesterday.

"People see no agenda, they see no plan other than from the occupied site. And the perception is that things are driven by the (Mohawk) Warriors and by the organized crime that they represent," he said.

Asked to name the organized crime outfit, Barrett listed the "Hells Angels, Sri Lanka mafia, Italian mafia, Russian mafia, Vagabonds."

Later in the day Barrett issued a written statement: "I do not believe and in no way intended to imply that organized crime was behind the occupation in Caledonia."



Barrett's comments make sense to me. I would like to find out where he collected his info. And if it's true, he should continue enlightening us on why these barricades are really up. I'm disappointed that he retracted his statements and broke down in the face of political pressure.


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## Gunnar (29 Aug 2006)

> I'm disappointed that he retracted his statements and broke down in the face of political pressure.



While likely still true, it is probable that he made the comments in the absence of hard evidence, at least evidence that was personally known to him.   He is thus merely staying within his lane.


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## Kat Stevens (29 Aug 2006)

Combat Ralph Klein should contract out as a freelance Premier, 2 year contract and a guarantee to get your Provincial Govt thinking properly again..... ;D


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## Fry (29 Aug 2006)

In response to the topic's question, no, they're not.

I have a mentally ill uncle who's dependant upon whatever drugs he can find. He's got multiple charges facing him, a criminal record, I won't get into specifics but he's one real low-life. Anywho, everytime it comes for him to face charges, he either pleads he's mentally ill, and gets 6 months in the mental hospital, or he goes nuts and goes to the mental hospital for a few weeks. Then the court dates are pushed ahead a few more months, and he can go about making people's lives miserable throughout the community. Threatening to kill people, children, burn their houses down, calling people late at night and threating their kids, this stuff is just horrible, not to mention cruelty to animals, drug charges... the list goes on.

The RCMP have been very helpful to us regarding this situation and have done all they can/will do all they can for us. But, when it comes time to go before the judge... as the baymen say "sling she goes".

Mental health patients who have criminal records and keep reoffending should be placed in care, or very closely monitored to ensure that nothing serious happens.


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## zipperhead_cop (29 Aug 2006)

Piper said:
			
		

> Bring back Harris to fix this mess. Better yet, make these kind of situations a federal issue. Let the RCMP/CF deal with these problems, since the combination of the Ontario Gov't / OPP seem incapable of resolving any of these problems without either backing off or throwing themselves into the fire of public inquiry,



No.  He hung Ken Deane out in a big way and is a major contributor to this issue.  After Dudley George was shot as a result of a JUSTIFIED police shooting, they should have regrouped and went back in.  Instead, Harris realized one of our precious "preferred citizens" was dead, and all of a sudden the issue of native armed resistance came to the fore in a heart beat.  He caved, and let the natives scour the area of shell casings and rounds lodged into trees and three days after the shooting, they were allowed to enter and conduct the investigation.  And the donkey show railroaded trial that ensued was also politically motivated.  Strange that three ranking individuals from that incident have all been killed in motor vehicle accidents since then.  I'm no conspiracy theorist, but I'm also not a big fan of coincidence.  
The MP was bang on with his comments about native organized crime.  They are fairly mercenary in their involvement with other traditional and non traditional organized crime groups.  Money is money.  

Criminal organizations, such as Aboriginal smuggling groups operating on border reserve areas, remain involved in smuggling contraband across the Canada/U.S. border.  As well, a number of strategically located
individuals, such as some border residents and port employees, play varying roles in the illegal cross-border movement of people and commodities. Border entry points and the areas between these points
are vulnerable to criminal exploitation as crime groups adapt smuggling strategies in response to enforcement scrutiny.
(Entire source document from the CSIC not available for general viewing--police sensitive) 

If anyone wants to read an open source document on native organized crime  CLICK HERE


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## aluc (29 Aug 2006)

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&pubid=968163964505&cid=1156845306368&col=968705899037&call_page=TS_News&call_pageid=968332188492&call_pagepath=News/News


Caledonia protesters seek supplies for winter
Aug. 29, 2006. 02:37 PM
CANADIAN PRESS

Aboriginal protesters occupying a former housing development site in Caledonia, Ont., are asking for donations to help them make it through the winter.

The Six Nations protesters, who have occupied the land since February, are calling for building supplies to help them finish constructing the 11 houses on the disputed territory.

Janie Jameson, spokeswoman for the protesters, says no one wants to see the half-built houses "rot away" when they could be used for shelter during the winter.

She says protesters also need non-perishable food and warm clothing to help them maintain their occupation, which she says will only end when the land is returned to the Six Nations people.

But Jason Clark, of the Caledonia Citizens Alliance, says residents are at their "wit's end" and can't contemplate the occupation — which has been marred by barricades and violent clashes — lasting into the winter.

He says it's time both levels of government stepped in to end the occupation.
 :rofl:

So this could work to the government's advantage.....cut off the supply chain and they'll go away... they could turn it into a war of attrition!


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## George Wallace (29 Aug 2006)

:

So now they want the "White Man" to give them free building supplies to finish the construction of houses that they are occupying illegally.........and food and blankets to survive the winter.   :

Perhaps they should visit their Bank first, or maybe just go home to their well stocked fridges in their warm homes.   :

Sheeeesssh!


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## Fishbone Jones (29 Aug 2006)

Octavianus said:
			
		

> So this could work to the government's advantage.....cut off the supply chain and they'll go away... they could turn it into a war of attrition!


Yep. Instead of them keeping everyone out, it's time to fence them in and cut them off.


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## FastEddy (30 Aug 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> :
> 
> So now they want the "White Man" to give them free building supplies to finish the construction of houses that they are occupying illegally.........and food and blankets to survive the winter.   :
> 
> ...




Are you kidding ???, just watch,  "YOUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK"


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## 17thRecceSgt (30 Aug 2006)

From the news tonight...

"Mud Recce Man Seeks Provisions To Make It Thru This Trng Year at Unit XX"

MRM informed the FGY News Reporter, Homer Simpson, that he needs many supplies to make it thru this trng cycle at UnitXX.  Supplies needed are...

1.  Food.  Pizza is preferred.
2.  Water. 
3.  Non-water beverages.  NSLC has a selection, and MRM is registered there...

Ok how serious would anyone take THAT?

Sheesh.

let's just kit-out the next "prison uprising" with gas masks, rations, water and billy-clubs....

Ya I think my post is as ridiculous as that one is.  maybe more.  maybe less.

 :


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## Kat Stevens (30 Aug 2006)

When the Matsqui prison rioted in the early 80s, the inmates burned the block, and all their bedding.  Mighty CFB Chilliwack to the rescue, erecting mod tent, setting up cots, and bedding.  Lamest aid to civil power display EVER.... I was disgusted.


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## aluc (31 Aug 2006)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Yep. Instead of them keeping everyone out, it's time to fence them in and cut them off.




Caesar would be proud! The government should erect  earthen/wooden ramparts and completely encircle them. ok, just kidding....


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## aluc (31 Aug 2006)

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1157017625971&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&t=TS_Home



Native protestors warned :rofl:
Aug. 31, 2006. 11:15 AM
CANADIAN PRESS

The federal and Ontario governments are telling Six Nations leaders to stop aboriginal protesters from harassing local residents in Caledonia.

The ministers responsible for aboriginal affairs from each government have written Chief Allen MacNaughton seeking to ease the ``considerable degree of tension" in Caledonia.

The ministers blame the tension on harassment by some occupiers towards nearby residents, and on occasional "provocative actions" directed towards the protesters.

Aboriginals have occupied the site of a partially-built housing project in Caledonia since February, saying the land was wrongfully taken from them over 200 years ago.

The ministers warn Chief MacNaughton of the serious consequences of further disturbances in Caledonia.

They call for an end to "loud noises, firecrackers, bright lights from ATVs and other vehicles, and any other activities that disturb the peace in neighbouring areas."

Three people were injured in a fire Wednesday night in an unfinished home on the occupied housing site.

Six Nations firefighters attended the blaze, but a local resident says members of the Caledonia fire department had to standby idly in a nearby parking lot.

The province bought the Douglas Creek site last month and has allowed the protesters to stay while negotiations with the two levels of government continue.

But Premier Dalton McGuinty said Wednesday it was unacceptable for them to remain on the land over the winter.






What's the difference? Our Ontario government let them stay all year long, why not the whole winter too! Hmmmm....this could be another PR move by the government...... if they stay the winter, there could be a chance that some of the occupiers may freeze to death. If that happens the government will probably get lambasted for allowing them to freeze because we didn't supply them with adequate "everything they want" . Just like the homeless in TO. 



> it was unacceptable for them to remain on the land over the winter.


  I see....because of the change in season , it's now become unacceptable for the insurgents to stay the winter. Whereas before the frost hits the ground, it appears to be acceptable!


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## TCBF (31 Aug 2006)

Is there an Armoury close by?  I bet they could stay in that for the winter.  I mean, if it's good enough for Toronto homeless...


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## rmacqueen (1 Sep 2006)

Or we could just give them some mods ;D


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## The_Falcon (1 Sep 2006)

rmacqueen said:
			
		

> Or we could just give them some mods ;D



why be so generous, artic tents all the way.


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## Fishbone Jones (1 Sep 2006)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> why be so generous, artic tents all the way.



Shelter halves


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## Fry (1 Sep 2006)

Octavianus said:
			
		

> http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1157017625971&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&t=TS_Home
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If this were fisherman or pulp n' paper workers here, acting like that... they'd be arrested, lol.


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## zipperhead_cop (2 Sep 2006)

Octavianus said:
			
		

> What's the difference? Our Ontario government let them stay all year long, why not the whole winter too! Hmmmm....this could be another PR move by the government...... if they stay the winter, there could be a chance that some of the occupiers may freeze to death. If that happens the government will probably get lambasted for allowing them to freeze because we didn't supply them with adequate "everything they want" . Just like the homeless in TO.
> I see....because of the change in season , it's now become unacceptable for the insurgents to stay the winter. Whereas before the frost hits the ground, it appears to be acceptable!



Because as much as a bunch of tools Dolton and the gang look now, imagine how they will look when they are handing out our parkas and arctic boots to these tools.  Or even better, buying them trailers and mobile homes to erect, because one of these asshats is going to pass out and freeze to death on the line and all of a sudden it will be a humanitarian crisis.  
I love that they won't get rid of these dinks, but even hippy BC kicked a bunch of Falun Gong protesters away from in front of the Chinese embassy.  God knows the violence yoga has inspired over the years.   :


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## George Wallace (2 Sep 2006)

May be a good time to practice some Darwinism and clean out the Gene Pool.  No free rides out.


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## The_Falcon (2 Sep 2006)

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060902.CALEDONIA02/TPStory/TPNational/Ontario/



> Caledonia standoff threatens to heat up again
> Residents frustrated with slow pace of negotiations over land rights
> 
> ALEX DOBROTA
> ...



This is what happens when you let problems fester and allow a group of people to flaut the law, based on perceived injustices from hundreds of years ago. If the government keeps dragging its heals, this could turn into something that makes Oka and Ipperwash look like a sunday picnic. Dolton is toast after this mess.


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## warspite (2 Sep 2006)

It's time to start playing hard ball and finish this. What happened 200 years ago doesn't matter. Everyone from 200 years ago is dead.  They have no claim as far as I'm concerned.  Just cause your ancestor owned something and had it taken away doesn't make it yours.


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## zipperhead_cop (6 Jul 2008)

Well, after all this time perhaps some of our laws _are _ being applied equally?


http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=IRELAND-qqqm=news-qqqid=34280-qqqx=1.asp

Go-ahead given for class action involving Boniface  
06 July 2008  By John Burke 

A multimillion dollar lawsuit involving the deputy head of the Garda Inspectorate, Gwen Boniface, is set to go ahead in Canada following the failure of the Ontario government to block the legal action.

Boniface is a former commissioner of the Ontario Provincial Police and was the first female president of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police. The class action lawsuit is being taken by residents of Caledonia, Ontario, who claim police failed to intervene when their community was occupied by Native Americans.

The controversial occupation occurred several months before Boniface accepted the job of joint deputy to Garda Inspector Kathleen O’Toole.

Boniface was named in the CDN$12 million (€8.4 million) lawsuit, initiated last year by 14 residents, alleging malfeasance by the police. The action alleges that Boniface failed to properly enforce a court order, inadequately coordinated a police operation and failed to protect the welfare of residents next to a site in Caledonia which was illegally occupied by Native Americans in February 2006.

The residents claim that Boniface failed to ask for extra police units when officers were overrun by protesters during an attempted eviction. They are seeking compensation against Ontario police over the alleged malfeasance, CDN$5million (€3.5million) in damages from the province of Ontario and an additional CDN$2 million in aggravated and punitive damages.

Ontario Supreme Court judge David Crane ruled last December that the court had jurisdiction to examine how police conducted the operation, and has now ruled that the provincial government cannot appeal his decision.

Despite the discontent among residents, Boniface was complimented on her handling of the ‘‘highly complex’’ issue by the Ontario Province Police Association [personal note:  they were all a bunch of toady licks back when she was in power, so that actually more of an indictment than a compliment] when she announced her departure to Ireland in July 2006. A spokesman for the Garda Inspectorate said it would not be commenting on the issue and said that Boniface would not be available for comment. 

Funny, this turns up in an Irish newspaper and not here.  What a shock


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## Bruce Monkhouse (23 Feb 2009)

I had no idea this trial /appeal was still going on..........I wonder how much its cost us so far?



http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090223.wahenakew0223/BNStory/National/home

Ahenakew found not guilty
PATRICK WHITE

Globe and Mail Update
February 23, 2009 at 12:46 PM EST

SASKATOON — Six years after he said Jews were a “disease” and tried to justify the Holocaust to a Saskatoon reporter, David Ahenakew has been found not guilty of willfully promoting hatred.

Reading a 19-page decision, Provincial Court judge Wilfrid Tucker harshly condemned Mr. Ahenakew's remarks, calling them “revolting, disgusting and untrue,” but determined that the former head of the Assembly of First nations did not intend to broadcast his views.
“There is no indication that the accused, at the time of the interview, even considered the possibility that the statements he made to [the reporter] would cause hatred against Jewish people to be promoted,” Mr. Tucker said.

The charges stem from a December, 2002 speech to First Nations leaders during which Mr. Ahenakew denounced immigrants and blamed Jews for starting World War II. In a subsequent interview with Saskatoon Star-Phoenix reporter James Parker, Mr. Ahenakew said that Hitler “fried” six million Jews to “make damn sure that the Jews didn't take over Germany or Europe” and that the world would “be owned by the Jews right now” had Hitler not “cleaned up a hell of a lot of things.”
In this file photo, David Ahenakew arrives at court for the second trial in his high profile hate crime case, in Saskatoon, Sask., Monday, Nov. 24, 2008. The former leader of the Assembly of First Nations was found not guilty today of 'willfully promoting hatred' from anti-Semetic comments made to a Saskatoon audience and later a local reporter.
Enlarge Image

In this file photo, David Ahenakew arrives at court for the second trial in his high profile hate crime case, in Saskatoon, Sask., Monday, Nov. 24, 2008. The former leader of the Assembly of First Nations was found not guilty today of 'willfully promoting hatred' from anti-Semetic comments made to a Saskatoon audience and later a local reporter. 

Mr. Ahenakew made a tearful public apology after the comments were circulated in media reports around the world.
The federal government revoked his Order of Canada and he lost his position as a senator with the Federation of Saskatchewan Indian nations.
In July, 2005, Mr. Ahenakew was convicted of promoting hatred and fined $1,000. The decision was overturned 11 months later after the Court of Queen's Bench ruled that the original judge had not fully considered Mr. Ahenakew's intent.

During a trial last fall, Mr. Ahenakew, now 75, testified that he never intended to promote hatred and doesn't hate Jews.
For much of the 30 minutes it took Mr. Tucker to read his decision today, Mr. Ahenakew kept his arms folded and eyes closed.
Judge Tucker said that because Mr. Ahenakew never intended to talk about his opinions on Jews with the reporter – at one point even saying “I'm not gonna argue with you about the Jews” to Mr. Parker – he showed no desire to publicize those views.

Outside the courtroom today, Mr. Ahenakew remained largely silent as his lawyer and daughter fielded questions, but did say “I'm glad it's over.”
Defence lawyer Doug Christie said the Ahenakew family could finally have some peace and chided the Crown for pursuing the case. “It was a few moments in history that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars and really nothing was achieved in terms of harmony or understanding.”

Randy Katzman, a spokesman for B'nai Brith, criticized the ruling and said his organization would “either ask the Crown to review or maybe ask for the legislation to be changed.”
A representative from the Canadian Jewish Congress said she respected the judge's decision and applauded him for denouncing Mr. Ahenakew's comments.
Crown prosecutor Sandeep Bains said he will need to review the ruling further before deciding whether to appeal.


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## zipperhead_cop (27 Feb 2009)

Saying your sorry is usually good enough to clear people of their actions.  How can you have an intent to commit any crime if you say your sorry after?  Clearly, this was a good decision.


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## Fishbone Jones (27 Feb 2009)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Saying your sorry is usually good enough to clear people of their actions.  How can you have an intent to commit any crime if you say your sorry after?  Clearly, this was a good decision.



Damn, we really have to get a sarcasm smiley


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## Kat Stevens (27 Feb 2009)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Saying your sorry is usually good enough to clear people of their actions.  How can you have an intent to commit any crime if you say your sorry after?  Clearly, this was a good decision.



Or an "I was only joking" defence usually works...


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## zipperhead_cop (27 Feb 2009)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Or an "I was only joking" defence usually works...



I think he used the "Hey, I have a buddy that is a Jew, and I nailed one once" defence.  That one is always golden.


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