# Navy: The Worst Element for Families? (MARS/LOG)



## Vell (10 Jul 2014)

Hours of searching the Navy.ca forums and 'The Home Front' forums has produced little information about the impact on family life of specifically those who are out at sea for much of their military career (The search term 'family' in the navy forums brings up very little or unclear information. The search function usually does not fail me though). I am posting this to the Navy General forum instead of the 'Home Front' as I am looking for advice specifically from people working out at sea (which most Navy members are).

Please forgive that I am a civvie with little knowledge of the Navy beyond what I have read on these forums. I am an applicant who has been recently investigating the one element of the CAF I know the least about; the Navy. I have taken notice and interest in the reg force MARS and LOG (all elements) trades and am currently trying to decide if I want to add either to my application (already submitted my application but am not yet at the CFAT stage so I can still add trades).

1) Am I correct to assume that there is no way to even remotely estimate how much time I will be away from my family every year should I successfully complete training as a LOG or MARS officer in the Navy? The amount of time potentially away from my family if I were to be posted at sea seems to be incredibly broad. While I see some people saying that they are away from their families about 2 months of every year, others report it not being uncommon to be away for 10 months or more per year. Other posts claim that you are never supposed to be at sea for more than 6 months per year. The information I am reading here is conflicting and in some cases may be outdated (some of the posts I read being over a decade old).

2) Many (non-ship based) CAF positions seem to be mostly regular working hours with some overtime and a few weeks (sometimes months at worst) away from home (not counting initial training). Anyone on a ship on the other hand seems to be subject to essentially working 24/7. Does the 8-10 hour per day air force officer get the same amount of leave as the 18 hour per day MARS officer who sometimes doesn't even get to sleep if they have bridge watch? Do Navy members end up getting extra time off when they are not at sea (so they can spend time with their family in chunks of weeks/months rather than in pieces of hours per day). Does the time away from family balance out compared to other officer trades? I know you get sea pay, but it hardly seems that an extra 500$ per month is reasonable compensation for in some cases double the working hours. Am I just missing something here?

I ask these question because while I find the Navy absolutely fascinating (I enjoy constantly being mentally engaged and what other trade has you bring your entire base with you!?), it is the potential time away from my family which makes me cautious to even consider the Navy. I am fine with not being able to see my family for a few months per year. I am not at all fine with spending 3/4 of every year out of physical contact with my family. Sure someone may join when they are single and want to travel the world, but how does the navy not lose all their members as soon as those members decide to have a family? I feel as if I must be missing part of the bigger picture though as I cannot imagine that anyone with a wife and kids, even the most hardcore sea lover, could bear having a job where they almost never get to see their family. 

I have some more basic unrelated questions as well.

-Do you need to be a strong swimmer to be in the Navy? I can swim (read float and dog paddle), but I have very little experience swimming. I love being on boats (my hobbies are boating and canoeing... yeah, I know, probably nothing like a warship but it IS something) but I am no fan of a mouth full of water. I would rather be ON the water rather than IN the water (but who knows, I have never been diving before and it looks quite interesting).

-I don't drink. I hear the drinking culture is... strong... in the Navy. Is this true? I have nothing against drinking nor those who like to drink. I enjoy a good wine with my meal, but I just have no interest in getting drunk. I don't suspect this to be a problem though. My friends LOVE that I don't drink so I can drag their as... so I can assist them when they miscalculate their alcohol intake. 

-As I understand it, while on a ship, you do not have so much 'working hours' as 'duties and responsibilities'. Does this mean that while you do not have set hours, you do what needs to be done whenever it needs doing and then enjoy a break whenever you are satisfied that your work is done? What do you do for leisure while on the boat (not counting when docked). How much time do you have for leisure (I understand that like any other job there must be both slower times and more busy times)? At any other job, you go home at the end of the day, but on a ship I figure you must always be ready to work at a moment's notice (I figure bad weather does not wait, pirates don't ask for your schedule, COs don't ask if you feel like doing random surprise training exercises).

-I read that a lot of MARS officers are ruthless for promotion. Is this true? Myself, I could care less if I got promoted. The way I see it is that if I am not promoted, I simply am not ready to be promoted. It is merit / ability based is it not? I don't have any interest in taking on responsibilities when people who have decades more experience than me don't think I am ready for them. Biting off more than you can chew is always just embarrassing not to mention very dangerous to those under your command is it not? Pay scales pretty nicely despite promotion for officers, so why the massive drive for promotion? Is it pure bragging rights or am I missing something again?

Sorry for all the questions (some which were likely answered deep in some post I could not find) and possible typos (I will have to re-read and edit this later as I need to go for now) and thank you for both reading this wall of text and dedicating yourself to the country I love.


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## Navy_Pete (10 Jul 2014)

Aside from being on a 24 hour duty watch, most MARS officers work normal days alongside (including time 'at the trainer').  Long hours at sea aren't unusual, but more like 12 hours, with extra studying.  Not really a whole lot else to do so it's not a big deal.

Also, not too many ships get out to sea a lot, so you may deploy sometimes, but the sea time is drastically reduced compared to years ago.  The deployed ships have started to go to blue/gold crews and do a swap while away, so unlikely you'll even be gone the whole time.  It really depends where you are posted; they are now specifically tracking how much sea time trainees are getting to make sure people get at least the minimum required for their different phases of training.

In my experience MARs officers are no worse then any other trade for promotion;  I've actually only ever been thrown under the bus by engineers. 

MARs is the only naval officer hard sea trade; the engineers are limited to four years max, and the logs have even less time posted to a ship (three years or less). 

You don't need to swim (unless you want to be a diver).  A lot of folks can't at all; it's a good motivator to take damage control seriously so you don't need to worry about swiming! ;D

Also, drinking happens, but no big deal if you don't.  I have a friend that doesn't drink at all and he's normally one of the most fun guys to be around in the ports.  It's not hugely uncommon; there are usually a few people that don't drink for one reason or another.

Your best bet is to try and find a sailor at a recruiting center, or they may be able to put you in touch with someone.


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## dimsum (10 Jul 2014)

Since you're in TO or thereabouts, talk to the folks at HMCS YORK.  The training program for Reserve and Reg F MARS officers is practically the same and there are enough MARS folks there who have experience.


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## Vell (10 Jul 2014)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Since you're in TO or thereabouts, talk to the folks at HMCS YORK.  The training program for Reserve and Reg F MARS officers is practically the same and there are enough MARS folks there who have experience.



Unfortunately, I am currently a public junior high school teacher in Japan, so no access to a recruitment center or reserve. Toronto takes care of all international files I was told (I am Canadian born and raised though). I would head to a Navy reserve to pick someone's brain had I the option.


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## Colin Parkinson (10 Jul 2014)

On the bright side most of the postings are near large cities where your family can have a life, spouse find a job, etc. Unlike Wainwright, Shilo, etc


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## Vell (10 Jul 2014)

Colin P said:
			
		

> On the bright side most of the postings are near large cities where your family can have a life, spouse find a job, etc. Unlike Wainwright, Shilo, etc



I would especially be lucky if I ever were to be posted to Comox as my wife is Japanese and the west coast has a wealth of goods and services available to make someone from Japan comfortable. From what I read, it does not really matter, but I also speak Japanese which I suppose could be useful for any ships that may sail to Japan (which would mostly/only be ships sailing out of the west coast I figure).

It is funny. When I first applied last year, I thought to myself "Airforce or nothing". I knew a good bit about the army from friends and lots of readily available information (and while I find the army interesting, it still does not look like an element I would want to be in for my entire career. Great short term experience though). The Navy has always been a complete mystery to me (especially for someone like me from the prairies). It seems like it is the least talked about element. Everyone wants to run around in a tank, blow something up, or shoot something with a personal weapon (army) or work on/fly a plane (CAF) it seems. But the more I read about ships and the Navy, the more interested I am becoming in it. Still, information is sparse and the internet is so inundated with information specific to the American Navy that I often find it difficult to get information specific to the Canadian Navy (sometimes even on these forums).


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## ModlrMike (10 Jul 2014)

FYI, at this point in time LogO is taking very few, if any applicants. In addition, your degree will need to be in a complimentary area, ie: business, accounting, commerce etc.


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## Vell (10 Jul 2014)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> FYI, at this point in time LogO is taking very few, if any applicants. In addition, your degree will need to be in a complimentary area, ie: business, accounting, commerce etc.



My degree is a BA in Asian Area Studies (economics, history, immigration/emigration, and language-Japanese). Some parts of my degree would be applicable, but hardly competitive against a full economics or business degree. Fortunately, LOG O would be my distant third choice (Pilot and MARS would be tied at the moment if not for the pilot pay).


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## dimsum (15 Jul 2014)

Vell said:
			
		

> I would especially be lucky if I ever were to be posted to Comox as my wife is Japanese and the west coast has a wealth of goods and services available to make someone from Japan comfortable. From what I read, it does not really matter, but I also speak Japanese which I suppose could be useful for any ships that may sail to Japan (which would mostly/only be ships sailing out of the west coast I figure).



I would suspect that there is a larger Japanese community in Victoria BC (where the RCN west coast fleet and the Sea Kings are based) than in the Comox/Courtenay area.  The Japanese community there, from what I remember, wasn't very big.


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## Eye In The Sky (15 Jul 2014)

Not sure how much this applies/relates to MARS or other Officer MOSIDs that sail, but one of things I recall the NCM sailors I worked with liked about the Navy was the "home port division" aspect.  Is this true on the Officer side of the RCN as well?


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## Navy_Pete (15 Jul 2014)

Not particularly for officers, although you can normally move around the coast for a few consecutive postings.  Depends on the phase of your training and where you are in your career.  For the engineers, our home port mostly Ottawa.  MARs can move around a lot and have lots of opportunities OUTCAN if they want; but you can also stay on the coast for a long time as well.  They get all the sweet gigs like Naval attaches, and exchanges with the RAN, etc.

Most of the NCMs can do most of their careers in the 'home port' though, with the occasional gig up in Ottawa (for MEPM, it's at the PO1/CPO2 level mostly, and same with the naval requirement side, plus the career shops)

LOG not really sure, although I do run into a lot of them here around Ottawa.


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## Vell (17 Jul 2014)

Thanks for all the input. Based on the comments here, on reddit and through other research, I have decided to add MARS officer to my application. I am still keeping pilot as #1 though since with that route I can work on planes and often ships as well and the pay is better.

In the end, I am currently working 12 hour days and coming home too exhausted to do anything with the kids. Also, thanks to how Japanese labor laws work, I get a lot of holiday time... which I am not actually allowed to use. In the end, the massive amount of paid leave along with PDL after long deployments means that while I may be gone for long periods of time, when I AM home, I can have at least some QUALITY time with my family. It also seems that the days of MARS officers typically being gone for 6-10 months per year for most of their career may no longer apply.

It also seems that based on other comments I have read, most of the Navy members that generally have problems with their marriage 'because of their long deployment' is generally the result of a weak marriage being made weaker. My relationship with my wife and kids is rock solid so I am not too worried about that.

I just can't seem to find a third officer choice though that I would be happy with. I am either not interested (combat arms) or under qualified (no science, engineering, business, economics or medical degree). ACSO... maybe... AEC... very iffy. This is in total opposition to NCM positions of which there are far more than three which I would be interested in.


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## NavyHopeful (17 Jul 2014)

I want to firstly wish you good luck in your application to the CF.  It is always a good day when someone decides to take the first step.

Now, on to the meat and taters...

If it were me applying, i wouldn't let those funky little NCM trades disappear into the night.  I have 3 close friends who gave up their commission to revert to NCMs because they liked the work better.  This is not to say that the officer trades are bad, or that the NCM trades are good, or who is better than whom.  It is a matter of personal choice.  One of my friends, we will call him Ty, started out as a MArine Systems Engineering Officer.  He decided that, although he wanted to be an engineering type, he was not sure that he was ready for the responsibility of having the entire ship's engineering functional capabilities placed squarely on his shoulders at some point during his career.  He decided to transfer to NCM and become a Weapons Engineering Tech.  I know he enjoyed his job immensly, and the only reason he decided to retire early from the Navy was because he was offered a very substantially paying job back in his home town, and was able to be with his parents and siblings (he is single, and had no wife or kids) as they were across the country.

The second person, we will call him Jim, started off as a MARS.  He actually qualified for quite a bit in his career, and went through many of the courses with some of the MARS on my ship right now.  He decided that it was time for a change, and ended up becoming a Ship's Electrician.  The work he does now can sometimes be tedious and demanding, but he has told me that he wouldn't trade it for anything in the world, and absolutely loves what he is doing.

The third person, let's call her Janice, started off as LogO.  She spent a good number of years working within her trade, and doing her LogO thing.  One day, she decides to give it all up to become a Bos'n.  Yep, a bos'n.  A lot of people scratch their head when they hear that.  She told me that being a LogO was great, but for her, nothing beat being able to drive the RHIB during a boarding or personnel transfer.

With that all said, I have also seen a few friends get commissioned from the ranks, so it can be done both ways.

In the end, it is always going to be up to you to do with your life whatever you want.  The only advice I have is that if you love it, and you can get paid to do it, why would you want to do anything else?

As for family life within the Navy, I can tell you that, as a father with a 3 yr old and a 1 yr old, the time you spend at home with your family may be long or short, depending on the operational requirements of your position / trade, but whatever time you get to spend of them can have great QUALITY.  I've sailed approximately 130 days in the last 365 (a lot to some, not much to others) and will be adding a few days to that here and there.  With the added advantages to Skype, FaceTime, email, Morale phones (onboard), and other means of communication to your families, being gone for a few months on a sail (or even a bunch of little sails) is not like it used to be.  I am able to get updates (and usually do) daily from my wife via email on things that happened, what the kids did, etc.  And if she needs me to call her, she just has to email me, and I go use a Morale phone to call her.  But when we get some time home, and we get the Pre-deployment or Post-deployment leave... Well, we go on road trips with the kids, or sit around the house playing with wooden Thomas the Tank Engine train sets, or whatever we feel like getting into.  When I'm home, the boys are daddy's boys.  When I'm gone, my wife has them in such a structured routine that they only miss me for the first week or two.  After that, they have their "Daddy bears" (build-a-bears with a voice recording in it from me, specific to each one) and video chat when we get into a foreign port and I can get some WIFI.

In any case, all elements and all trades have their pros and cons.  The challenge is to find the one that seems tailor-suited to you.  And if you can get paid doing something you love, why wouldn't you do it for as long as you could?

Good luck in your path, and I hope you find what you need.

Cheers,

Rev


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## Vell (17 Jul 2014)

NavyHopeful, thanks a LOT for your input. Everything you mentioned is extremely closely applicable to my situation, right down to your age and the age of your kids (I am 33, my children are 3 and 1). I particularly value your input regarding family life and how Navy life has effected you in that regard. 

As for NCM or Officer, that has been an internal struggle to no end.  I am not interested in most of the officer positions which is why I will only have two positions for officer on my initial application. The way I see it however is that since there are in fact two positions I am truly interested in, I should try for the higher paying jobs first and drop down to NCM if I cannot handle it / do not end up liking it. It seems more practical than trying the other way around (trying NCM positions and then realizing I would be just as happy or happier in an Officer position making more money). As I said, I am also worried about NCM being mostly leadership in the late career anyways so why not start out in a leadership role from the get go and start working on that skill set early. 

Personally, I do not mind leadership roles as long as I find myself competent and reliable. I am HUGELY stressed when I think I am under-qualified for my given task though (note however that I do beleive in being assigned tasks slightly above one's ability in order to grow and learn. Krashen i+1... yes, I am a public school teacher   ). An example in my civilian life is where I was tasked with training a group of people on how to translate documents from Japanese to English when my own language skills are definitely not sufficient to do such a thing at the professional level (translating children's books, city signs and business cards like I was doing is a FAR cry from professional translations of technical documents). For this reason, I may not be as 'promotion' driven as some others as I do not wish to get promoted until I am deemed ready for a new level of responsibility (and I thus rely on the experience and skills of those above me to accurately be able to judge my skills and assign my tasks accordingly).


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## dimsum (17 Jul 2014)

Vell said:
			
		

> Personally, I do not mind leadership roles as long as I find myself competent and reliable. I am HUGELY stressed when I think I am under-qualified for my given task though (note however that I do beleive in being assigned tasks slightly above one's ability in order to grow and learn. Krashen i+1... yes, I am a public school teacher   ).



Not to be _that_ guy, but regardless of your Officer/NCM choice, there will be situations where you're dropped into something with little/no prep and expected to lead.  Of course, all of us would like to be thoroughly prepared for a leadership role, but I'm just stressing that adaptability and initiative will come into play more often than you think.


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## Vell (17 Jul 2014)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Not to be _that_ guy, but regardless of your Officer/NCM choice, there will be situations where you're dropped into something with little/no prep and expected to lead.  Of course, all of us would like to be thoroughly prepared for a leadership role, but I'm just stressing that adaptability and initiative will come into play more often than you think.



Indeed both have leadership, which is a major contributor to picking officer over NCM. Yes, officers have more leadership responsibilities, but NCMs are leaders too, especially as they go up in rank (if what I read is true). I don't think I will be able to fully appreciate the difference until I take the plunge and join though, no matter how much I read about it here.


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## NavyHopeful (18 Jul 2014)

Vell said:
			
		

> NavyHopeful, thanks a LOT for your input. Everything you mentioned is extremely closely applicable to my situation, right down to your age and the age of your kids (I am 33, my children are 3 and 1). I particularly value your input regarding family life and how Navy life has effected you in that regard.



You're quite welcome.  Glad I could help.



			
				Vell said:
			
		

> As for NCM or Officer, that has been an internal struggle to no end.  I am not interested in most of the officer positions which is why I will only have two positions for officer on my initial application. The way I see it however is that since there are in fact two positions I am truly interested in, I should try for the higher paying jobs first and drop down to NCM if I cannot handle it / do not end up liking it. It seems more practical than trying the other way around (trying NCM positions and then realizing I would be just as happy or happier in an Officer position making more money).



Like I said before, you have to do what's right by you.  No one can tell you that except yourself (unless your wife has opinions about it...lol)



			
				Vell said:
			
		

> As I said, I am also worried about NCM being mostly leadership in the late career anyways so why not start out in a leadership role from the get go and start working on that skill set early.
> 
> Personally, I do not mind leadership roles as long as I find myself competent and reliable. I am HUGELY stressed when I think I am under-qualified for my given task though (note however that I do beleive in being assigned tasks slightly above one's ability in order to grow and learn. Krashen i+1... yes, I am a public school teacher   ). An example in my civilian life is where I was tasked with training a group of people on how to translate documents from Japanese to English when my own language skills are definitely not sufficient to do such a thing at the professional level (translating children's books, city signs and business cards like I was doing is a FAR cry from professional translations of technical documents). For this reason, I may not be as 'promotion' driven as some others as I do not wish to get promoted until I am deemed ready for a new level of responsibility (and I thus rely on the experience and skills of those above me to accurately be able to judge my skills and assign my tasks accordingly).



I can tell you that, although there is truth to this line of thought, for the most part on the ships I've been with, if your supervisors believe that you have the ability to provide leadership to your peers, they will give you ample opportunity to show it.  My departmental supervisors have ensured that EVERYONE is given a chance to show their leadership skills at some point or another, and they strive to assist those whose leadership skills need some brushing up.  One of the things that is taught to us early on is that any one of us has the potential at any point in our career to lead a task.  I have seen OS as an I/C, telling MS and LS what to do (politely, of course), so it doesn't just come into play later on.  It starts at day one.

Anyways, hope this helps, as well, and good luck!

Cheers,

Rev


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