# Ottawa to fund relaunch of CMR



## Sf2 (19 Jul 2007)

Wow, just saw the press conference on CTV.

CMR is re-opening this September.  Awsome for aspiring students!


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## Japexican (19 Jul 2007)

wow... this next year should be pretty interesting around the college.  The funny thing is that cadets are only going to hear about it through the rumour mill, or when they get back in September.  Oh well, as long as morning walks and daily parades disappear, I won't complain. Prepare to engage autopilot 8)


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## cavalryman (19 Jul 2007)

Sorry to throw some cold water on the celebrations.  Not quite re-opening and returning to what it was.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070719/Quebec_college_070719/20070719?hub=Canada


More like a limited change in mandate.


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## dapaterson (19 Jul 2007)

Let's see:  $200M over 20 years = $10M per year.  With 200 students per year.  That's $50 000 per year, per student.

Wouldn't it be cheaper to do some sort of ASD instead - hire a CEGEP to deliver the training?

Either way, that $10M per year is millions of rounds of ammunition we won't have for training, or spare parts we won't have for vehicles.  Hardly a banner day for the CF.


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## Meridian (19 Jul 2007)

Ottawa to fund relaunch of Que. military college
CTV.ca News Staff
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070719/Quebec_college_070719/20070719?hub=TopStories




A Quebec military college mothballed during budget cuts in the 1990s will reopen this September after receiving a financial boost from the Canadian government. 

The Royal Military College in St.-Jean-sur-Richelieu, Que., will offer a new two-year diploma program to young potential officers. 

The College of General and Professional Education Program (CÉGEP) is expected to accommodate about 200 students per year. 

"It is with great pride that I am announcing the re-establishment of the Collège militaire royal de Saint-Jean," Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor said Thursday. "This vital educational institution will once again take its pride of place in the development of a bilingual officer corps. For too long we have felt its absence. CMR is back." 

While the school won't offer university-level courses as it did prior to the 1995 cutbacks, credits can be applied to programs at the Royal Military College in Kingston, Ont. or other universities. 

The institution has been offering a one-year preparatory course for Quebec high school students looking to pursue a career at the Royal Military College in Kingston. 

"The re-establishing of Collège militaire de Saint-Jean as an independent academic institution will provide a vital educational capability to the Canadian Forces," said Maj.-Gen. Semianiw. 

"This will restore a Commandant, Board of Governors, and a Principal, as well as the military culture of discipline, uniforms and fitness training in order to meet the needs of an expanding and transforming Canadian Forces." 

Michael Fortier, Minister of Public Works and Government Services, likened the original cutbacks to the National Hockey League shutting down the Montreal Canadiens. 

"Our youth in Quebec want to study in a military college," said Fortier. "This announcement that we're making today will help them to fulfill their military study." 

O'Connor said that the government will spend $200 million over the next 20 years on funding for the college. 

With files from The Canadian Press


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## vonGarvin (19 Jul 2007)

Now that CMR is back, does that mean RMC will no longer be referred to as CMR?   >


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## Meridian (19 Jul 2007)

Captain Sensible said:
			
		

> Now that CMR is back, does that mean RMC will no longer be referred to as CMR?   >



My guess:

RMC/CMR (Kingston)
CMR (St-Jean)


[Edited to add] May confuse the whole college number thing.  "Whats your college number"... "Mais, j'en ais deux mon ami!"... "Awww crap, both are lower than mine, do I owe you two now?"


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## x-zipperhead (19 Jul 2007)

Just trying to buy more political favour in seat-rich Quebec to help them shore up the prospect of a majority which seems to be slowly slipping away.  IMHO.  I agree with dapaterson that there are plenty of higher priorities for that $10M per year.


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## mudrecceman (19 Jul 2007)

How many students a year...and...where are they going to house them?  My understanding is/was that things there were full with the SLT, NCM PD Center folks and the RMC Prep Year students.

Just curious...

I am curious as to the "bang for the buck' ratio on this.  10 million a year is alot of ammo and IMPs for Field trng...if you follow me.


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## Meridian (19 Jul 2007)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> How many students a year...and...where are they going to house them?  My understanding is/was that things there were full with the SLT, NCM PD Center folks and the RMC Prep Year students.
> 
> Just curious...
> 
> I am curious as to the "bang for the buck' ratio on this.  10 million a year is alot of ammo and IMPs for Field trng...if you follow me.



From reading around here, I've seen they've been filling the place up since I was there...  we housed the entire Squadron (150 or so) in one of the barracks (moved midway to renovate).   That was two to a room....    Either renovate and add a few beds in first year rooms (still more room than at RMC Kingston), or you need about a quarter of the other barracks.

The 200 estimate seems low if there was already 140-150 prep year cadets doing CEGEP 1.    CEGEP 1 is the requirement for acceptance into an Ontario University (RMC Kingston).   Why do CEGEP2?  And does this mean they will limit the amount of non Quebec candidates going to CMR to keep the number closer to 200 than 300 (double the one year cap of 150?)

This is going to really change the dynamic at RMC Kingston...  You'll have kids walking through the Arch in Year 2.... no FYOP for them...


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## ModlrMike (19 Jul 2007)

A long overdue resurrection, albeit not a complete one.

Is four posts a record for the "better spent on bullets" argument?

Edited for spelling.


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## Meridian (19 Jul 2007)

Posted in Current News as well

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/64330.0.html

As I mentioned there, dapaterson, I'm seeing where you are going.

Currently, prep year cadets already receive CEGEP 1 provided under accreditation from CEGEP St Jean Sur Richelieu. 
I dont really see the point in CEGEP 2 diplomas if everyone is just going to continue on for three more years at RMC Kingston for a University Degree.   

The only way I see this helping the individual is if they allow Cadets to bail out of ROTP after two years instead of one, but that certainly would be a waste for the CF...  otherwise, why not just send em off to Kingston?    You aren't really creating any more headroom in Kingston either,  since at least when I was at Prep year, we had 150 cadets...  200 isn't that far away...  if we had all stayed for a second year, then that would mean 300 in St Jean for two years...  but this release only talks about 200!


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## Inch (19 Jul 2007)

The two threads have been merged.


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## vonGarvin (19 Jul 2007)

Meridian said:
			
		

> My guess:
> 
> RMC/CMR (Kingston)
> CMR (St-Jean)


I find it odd that a Canadian Forces institution that is over 100 years old had its proper name changed.  No longer is it "Royal Military College of Canada", but "RMC/CMR"  I mean, it's NOT "The Royal 22nd Regiment", its "Royal 22e Regiment" (I'm sure that there's an accent e goo in there somewhere).  For example, my middle name is "William", and it doesn't change to "Wilhelm" if I go to Germany or "Guillaume" (or whatever) in Quebec.


Anyway.....poutine anyone?  ;D


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## retiredgrunt45 (19 Jul 2007)

> A Quebec military college mothballed during budget cuts in the 1990s will reopen this September after receiving a financial boost from the Canadian government.
> The College of General and Professional Education Program (CÉGEP) is expected to accommodate about 200 students per year.
> 
> "It is with great pride that I am announcing the re-establishment of the Collège militaire royal de Saint-Jean," Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor said Thursday. "This vital educational institution will once again take its pride of place in the development of a bilingual officer corps. For too long we have felt its absence. CMR is back."
> ...


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## SupersonicMax (19 Jul 2007)

Meridian said:
			
		

> This is going to really change the dynamic at RMC Kingston...  You'll have kids walking through the Arch in Year 2.... no FYOP for them...



It was like that prior to 1995 anyways.  People would do 2 years in CMR then go to Kingston to finish studies. Roc Term was done in St-Jean.

As for the college numbers, you get it at CMR (just like prior to 1995, with RRMC and CMR) and keep it in Kingston.

Max


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## geo (19 Jul 2007)

One of the things to consider is that the CMR / Ft St John campus does a hell of a lot more than just give education to Officer cadets.  The CF Language school has mOved there.  The CF school of leadership conducts it's Elementary, intermediate and advanced courses there..... and prolly much more - everything that has been kicked out of the Mega....


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## Meridian (19 Jul 2007)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> It was like that prior to 1995 anyways.  People would do 2 years in CMR then go to Kingston to finish studies. Roc Term was done in St-Jean.
> 
> As for the college numbers, you get it at CMR (just like prior to 1995, with RRMC and CMR) and keep it in Kingston.
> 
> Max



Really? I thought that CMR was a full degree-granting institution before... I've heard of officers saying they got their Eng degrees there, I'm pretty sure....  was this just in the last few years before the cut?


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## mudrecceman (19 Jul 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> One of the things to consider is that the CMR / Ft St John campus does a hell of a lot more than just give education to Officer cadets.  *The CF Language school has mOved there*.  The CF school of leadership conducts it's Elementary, intermediate and advanced courses there..... and prolly much more - everything that has been kicked out of the Mega....



The students from CFLS Det St-Jean are there but the school itself is still in the Mega...


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## geo (19 Jul 2007)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> The students from CFLS Det St-Jean are there but the school itself is still in the Mega...



the Mega was pert much up to the rafters with recruits last month ( when I was there for a week's training )  Didn't really see much in the way of signage for CFLS - but, if you say so.....


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## cavalryman (19 Jul 2007)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> It was like that prior to 1995 anyways.  People would do 2 years in CMR then go to Kingston to finish studies. Roc Term was done in St-Jean.
> Max



Ummm. no.  As CSA105 noted, that is incorrect.  People graduated from CMR with bachelor's degrees for years.   I graduated from CMR in the 80s with a bachelor's degree, so you can pretty much take that statement as the truth - the scroll is hanging over the closet in my home office.  At the time I was there, the College offered Administration, Canadian Studies, Computer Sciences and a few other obscure degrees that I forget after years of eating from aluminum mess tins.  The Engineering masochists students vanished after 2nd year, never to be seen again, although rumour had it they reappeared in Kingston.  I never set foot inside the RMC at Kingston until my brother-in-law's grad years after.


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## Meridian (19 Jul 2007)

cavalryman said:
			
		

> Ummm. no.  As CSA105 noted, that is incorrect.  People graduated from CMR with bachelor's degrees for years.   I graduated from CMR in the 80s with a bachelor's degree, so you can pretty much take that statement as the truth - the scroll is hanging over the closet in my home office.  At the time I was there, the College offered Administration, Canadian Studies, Computer Sciences and a few other obscure degrees that I forget after years of eating from aluminum mess tins.  The Engineering masochists students vanished after 2nd year, never to be seen again, although rumour had it they reappeared in Kingston.  I never set foot inside the RMC at Kingston until my brother-in-law's grad years after.



Calvalryman -

"Back then"   What was the language/providence ratio?  Was it all from the Belle Province?  I'm curious what the criteria was to end up at CMR vice RMC or RRMC.


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## cavalryman (19 Jul 2007)

Meridian said:
			
		

> Calvalryman -
> 
> "Back then"   What was the language/providence ratio?  Was it all from the Belle Province?  I'm curious what the criteria was to end up at CMR vice RMC or RRMC.



From what I recall, the criteria was whether your province's high school stopped at Grade 12 or Grade 13, i.e. whether your post-secondary studies required 4 or 5 years to get to the Bachelor's degree.  If you graduated High School with Grade 12, you went to CMR.  Otherwise, it was RMC or RRMC.  We had a lot of Newfoundlanders at CMR, and of course Québecois of either language.  Can't off-hand recall other large contingents.

Edit: a little soak in the hot tub loosened up the neurons... I can also recall a goodly number of New Brunswickers, of either linguistic persuasion.


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## Meridian (19 Jul 2007)

My prep year experience was (roughly):

50% Quebec
50% the rest, mostly from:
- Nova Scotia
- Alberta
- NFLD
- A few from the others.


Something about math curricula not being as strong in those provinces as in Quebec or Ontario, as well as students with poorer grades but solid extracurricula/leadership/milpot


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## McG (19 Jul 2007)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Let's see:  $200M over 20 years = $10M per year.  With 200 students per year.  That's $50 000 per year, per student.


I wonder how much of that money is already being spent annually through the prep-year program?  Most government announcements proclaim the total dollar value going into a project, but what is not mentioned is the money already in the department that is being clawed away to make the project work.  I am confident that the $ 200 M includes money already going to prep-year.  All that I see being added is an additional 50 students and some additional academic leadership.


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## Meridian (19 Jul 2007)

MCG said:
			
		

> I wonder how much of that money is already being spent annually through the prep-year program?  Most government announcements proclaim the total dollar value going into a project, but what is not mentioned is the money already in the department that is being clawed away to make the project work.  I am confident that the $ 200 M includes money already going to prep-year.  All that I see being added is an additional 50 students and some additional academic leadership.



Indeed, at the very least there were 150 cadets 5 years ago in Prep Year (dont know what the current number is, probably not far off).
The college already had a CEGEP program.... this announcement means an additional year of that program.   They havent said whether the accreditation is still through CEGEP St Jean Sur Richelieu, or if it will be "CEGEP College Militaire Royale".

When I was there, we already had a principal...  though, can't remember ever meeting him.  And our teaching staff did double duty as faculty for RMC's continuing ed programs... Interesting to note, Stephane Dion's wife, Janine Krieber, was my Political Science professor there....


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## SupersonicMax (19 Jul 2007)

cavalryman said:
			
		

> Ummm. no.  As CSA105 noted, that is incorrect.  People graduated from CMR with bachelor's degrees for years.   I graduated from CMR in the 80s with a bachelor's degree, so you can pretty much take that statement as the truth - the scroll is hanging over the closet in my home office.  At the time I was there, the College offered Administration, Canadian Studies, Computer Sciences and a few other obscure degrees that I forget after years of eating from aluminum mess tins.  The Engineering masochists students vanished after 2nd year, never to be seen again, although rumour had it they reappeared in Kingston.  I never set foot inside the RMC at Kingston until my brother-in-law's grad years after.



I said people, I did not say everyone!

Max


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## geo (20 Jul 2007)

Am with ya on this MCG
It sounds like big bucks but is the cumulative of all the money going into the place


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## dapaterson (20 Jul 2007)

Command-Sense-Act 105 said:
			
		

> For the record, I was never a student at CMR nor do I have any particular affinity for Canada's Military College system in general, finding it too focused on "College" and not focused enough on "Military", glowing articles from the Kingston Whig-Standard aside.
> 
> However I am in favour of increasing our capabilities for the future, for strategic expansion.  Today's announcement does just that.



Have to differ on that.  We'ver already got too many officers in the CF (establishment wise at least) at nearly 25%  - imagine an infantry platoon where the platoon commander, platoon warrant, the section commanders and section 2ics are all officers, and you've got today's CF.  We need to enhance and increase our capabiltiy to produce a trained and qualifed NCM corps first and foremost.  Reinforcing the leadership school in St Jean?  Strategic expansion.  Adding a new Commandant (probably a BGen) and a bunch more staff to St Jean, taking millions of dollars out of the system to create a CEGEP?  Strategic reduction.

The news articles were suggesting that the increment would be $200M over 20 years, or $10M in additional funding.  I can see many places where those funds could be much better applied - ammo and spares were the two that immediately leaped to mind.  (And this ignores the BTL expansion and its related costs that this initiative will drive).


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## Strike (20 Jul 2007)

> You'll have kids walking through the Arch in Year 2.... no FYOP for them...



I have a funny feeling that would only last a year or so.  After that nice "experiment" awhile back where roc term was abolished and disciplinary problems increased in said years.  It would also cause a huge split in the cohesiveness in the students, as anyone in the class of '98 can attest to when the former preps were sent to RMC and had to mix with 1st years who had just finished roc term.  Very awkward.


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## DG-41 (20 Jul 2007)

Yay! My Alma Mater is back from the dead!

The way things were run Back In The Day was that you did 5 years at CMR vice 4 years at RMC or RRMC.

For Quebequois, this was a natural progression as their schooling went high school -> CEGEP -> University where the rest of Canada went high scool -> University.

For us Anglos, attending CMR meant not graduating high school. Instead, we completed Grade 11 and then went to CMR. At the end of First Year (so two years complete) you got a CEGEP diploma, and could transfer to RMC if you wanted an engineering degree.

For some provinces, (BC and Alberta for sure) there were remedial classes in Math and Chemistry to take in the first term of Prep year to get you up to speed. Spazz Math was definately needed; I hadn't seen any Trig before arriving at CMR and Calculus without Trig is a B-I-T-C-H. Spazz Chem I thought was a waste of time; there was nothing there that I hadn't already seen in Chem 11 in high school.

Each year there were 30-35 Preps brought in in 6 squadrons, and an additional dozen or so in 7 Sqn (where the barracks was smaller) The initial intake was about 66% Franco, 33% Anglo but the failure rate in Prep year was horrendous. We went from 32 people to 9 by the end of Prep year, and the ratio in my Sqn went from 66% Franco to about 12% Franco.

Further complicating things was that people getting a BA only needed one year of CEGEP, so they wouldn't do Prep year, but jumped into First Year after the end of recruit camp.

In my Sqn, we lost one or two at the end of Rook Camp (one for sure - he went AWOL after a couple of weeks, was picked up by the MPs at his house, was dragged back, forced to complete Rook Camp, and then released), then a bunch at XMas, and the rest at the end of the term. Then we did BOTC in Chilliwack where I think everybody made it; at least from my Sqn.

Those going to RMC or RRMC, or CMR BAs, would start with BOTC, then do Rook Camp, and then start in as a First Year.

I went to CMR (from Northern BC) on the advice of my recruiting oficer (who I suspect had a quota to fill) and because it got me the hell out of Dodge a year earlier. My Sqn had the lion's share of the BC boys (me, 'Gate, Luke, Attila) but Stress and Chan from 3 Sqn were from BC too. There were also a lot of Neufs running around too.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear it's back.

DG

CMR '92


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## Meridian (20 Jul 2007)

Good summary, thanks!

With all five years, how many cadets did CMR hold?   The grounds aren't exactly palatial in size, though I suppose RMC Kingston isn't huge either...


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## Brad Sallows (20 Jul 2007)

>For some provinces, (BC and Alberta for sure) there were remedial classes in Math and Chemistry to take in the first term of Prep year to get you up to speed. Spazz Math was definately needed; I hadn't seen any Trig before arriving at CMR and Calculus without Trig is a B-I-T-C-H.

BC?  You must either be a lot older or a lot younger than I.  I graduated high school (Gr 12) in 1982 from an average BC high school and was permitted to take honours calculus in my first year at university.  There was certainly no remedial math needed.  [Edit: I gather you mean having only Gr 11 math was insufficient.  But Trig was in the math syllabus from Gr 8 up, and I suppose it still is. But I don't understand the point of a special federally-funded replacement for high school if that's all CMR is being reopened as.  Finish provincial (or private) high school and then go to MC.]


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## Meridian (20 Jul 2007)

Brad,

Prep Year is already a "specially-funded replacement of High-School".   Sort of.
Quebec students graduate after Secondaire V  (Grade 11, though Quebec claims it is Grade 12 equivalent).

Ontario Universities require Grade 12 as a minimum prerequisite, and so there is a one year gap.  Instead of losing candidates to CEGEPs for one year before they can apply to the CF, Prep Year was instituted to get them right after high school.

Other candidates from other provinces were included in my prep year where either they were missing requirements, came from provinces that didnt have high enough levels of math, or where their academics were lower than the regular RMC standard.


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## Brad Sallows (20 Jul 2007)

Quebec has a unique high-school system.  So what?  If CEGEP is necessary to get into most universities in Canada and elsewhere, then CEGEP is functionally not importantly distinct from high school in other provinces.  I don't see the point to "capturing" officer candidates for the final year of "pre-university" if we don't propose to permit the same for every other province's applicants (ie. students entering Gr 12).  Are we "losing" prospective candidates to Gr 12 in other provinces?  The claim this somehow supports CF bilingualism is somewhat amusing: the emphasis of CMR is to provide prep for francophone candidates in, I assume, a francophone school environment - unless the role of the reborn CMR is English immersion for francophones.

Which provinces' math curricula fall short, given that the RMC requirement is essentially that the high school education be good enough for public university entrance in the same province as the high school?

Substandard candidates should prepare themselves with a remedial year at college or university.  Is RMC having trouble filling seats?


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## Meridian (20 Jul 2007)

Well, a few things:

1 - CEGEPs are designed to be functionally different from High School, in particular because they represent an entirely voluntary admissions system which is entirely segregated from the Secondary system.   You go to a different building, and, in many cases people move to different cities (often from Rural Quebec to larger towns or Montreal).   I would presume (own guess) that the Forces was eager to grab these candidates right away before they got interested in other things.   

2 - Id love to hear from someone who was at Prep Year recently or a CFRC person to let us know how many Preps were in last year.    My numbers were 140, but I read somewhere (Cant remember) yesterday in one of the articles that current capacity was closer to 70.    Thats half of what it used to be, only 5-6 years ago (if the article was correct).

3 - If anything, I would have seen this (functionally) as a way to increase the amount of candidates the College system can pull in during the "early years". Invariably these candidates drop out in or after the first year (as I did, before the formal engagement begins), so perhaps adding another entry point and more seats will help "pad" the final numbers?

A lot of presumptions on my part, so please take it all with a grain...


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## McG (20 Jul 2007)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Quebec has a unique high-school system.  So what?


I recall that prep-year was an option for Ontario Gr 12 grads in the years prior to the elimination of OAC (Gr 13).


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## blasty_bough (21 Jul 2007)

CSA 105.....well said. Nice to see that someone has the big picture. $10M is nothing in the big scheme of things and its money well invested. Yes it could buy a lot of other smaller things but if it wasn"t allocated to CMR the government would have been invested it elsewhere...not necessarily in DND and the CF. I'm not a supporter of ring-knockers but this is a good move for DND and the CF.


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## mudrecceman (21 Jul 2007)

blasty_bough said:
			
		

> CSA 105.....well said. Nice to see that someone has the big picture. $10M is nothing in the big scheme of things and its money well invested. Yes it could buy a lot of other smaller things but if it wasn"t allocated to CMR the government would have been invested it elsewhere...not necessarily in DND and the CF. I'm not a supporter of ring-knockers but this is a good move for DND and the CF.



As a taxpayer, $10M IS alot of money to me per year.  As a CF mbr, "opening a facility" is a good thing, sure.  I think there are more bases/areas needing that money MORe than the folks that are going to get it.

Good is not necessarily "the best".  You wouldn't fire your main armament that way, you shouldn't spend your money that way, either...


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## Agent 007 (22 Jul 2007)

All the talk about money and cost effectiveness is irrelevant. The most cost effective solution is to (1)close RMC (2) close CMR (3) Close Canadian Forces College, Toronto  (4) close the Army staff college in Kinston. Then create one institution to do all of the above in a cost-effective manner in a bilingual environment (neither Kingston nor Toronto), associated closely with NDHQ and civilian bilingual university ressources. Indeed Gen Rollie recommended as much bask in the 1970s(?), selecting Ottawa/Hull as the obvious site. But that solution is too logical and was rejected. Tradition won over both effectiveness and costs. 

Therefore if we now reopen CMR in St-Jean, it is to correct a lopsided and much duplicated system that is already far more expensive than it should be, but nevertheless fails to adequately (1) educate and (2) retain - Franco officers and, as well, fails to offer adequate second language training to Anglos. - and finally, fails to attract top notch Franco military and academic staff that would serve as role models for all. If money doesn't matter in Kingston and Toronto, it is also irrelevant in St-Jean.


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## blasty_bough (22 Jul 2007)

""As a taxpayer, $10M IS alot of money to me per year.  As a CF mbr, "opening a facility" is a good thing, sure.  I think there are more bases/areas needing that money MORe than the folks that are going to get it.

Good is not necessarily "the best".  You wouldn't fire your main armament that way, you shouldn't spend your money that way, either..."



As a taxpayer I'm intereted in the strategic value and the return-on-investment. For me it's not about opening a facility, its about what it prodices for the CF. I agree $10M is a lot of money and that's why it needs to be invested well to achieve to achieve a long-term strategy.


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## IN HOC SIGNO (22 Jul 2007)

And now that we're busy reopening old training facilities will we expect to see Royal Roads reopening soon, along with CFB Chilliwack and CFB Cornwallis? Oh yeah that's right they're not in Quebec...silly me.


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## blasty_bough (22 Jul 2007)

Don't three of those four organizations already report to one institution...CDA. This particular organization is growing by the day....it just assumed parts of DTEP last week. Perhaps this is the type of organization that Agent 007 is speaking? I agree with the comments about money and cost effectiveness.


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## McG (23 Jul 2007)

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> And now that we're busy reopening old training facilities will we expect to see Royal Roads reopening soon, along with CFB Chilliwack and CFB Cornwallis?


This is not re-opening old bases.  It is expanding something we already have there (though it brings it to the status it once had).  When CFB Chilliwack closed, its units & schools moved: 1 CER is in Edmonton, CFSME is in Gagetown, and CFOCS is in St Jean.


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## IN HOC SIGNO (23 Jul 2007)

MCG said:
			
		

> This is not re-opening old bases.  It is expanding something we already have there (though it brings it to the status it once had).  When CFB Chilliwack closed, its units & schools moved: 1 CER is in Edmonton, CFSME is in Gagetown, and CFOCS is in St Jean.



And we moved the military college students from CMR to Royal Military college in Kingston after a big renovation to RMC to take the extra students. They allowed a squadron to stay at the old college to do CGEP prep year and I would suggest to appease the voters in the riding. It is a re-opening by any other name. A lot of CFB Chilliwack is still there too....although it's looking pretty sad and neglected these days.


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## McG (23 Jul 2007)

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> It is a re-opening by any other name.


No.  It will not grant degrees (which the old CMR did).  It is only a slightly larger prep school with the old CMR name.  Regardless of how you look at this though, it does not introduce a requirement to re-open a base.  The base never closed.

CFB Chilliwack is closed.  Some of it is still there physically, but those empty buildings are no longer CF property.  Very little is still open there, and what is open is supporting the reserves.


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## Brad Sallows (23 Jul 2007)

>Then create one institution to do all of the above in a cost-effective manner in a bilingual environment (neither Kingston nor Toronto), associated closely with NDHQ and civilian bilingual university ressources.

Then we could acknowledge that most of the country is functionally unilingual (one way or the other) and cut costs accordingly.  Undoubtedly the consolidation of all that is bilingual in the hub of the nation would be a wise and just decision certain to strengthen the Canadian confederation.


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## Meridian (23 Jul 2007)

MCG said:
			
		

> .  Regardless of how you look at this though, it does not introduce a requirement to re-open a base.  The base never closed.



Technically, MCG, that's not exactly accurate.

At least when I was there, DND owned the land, leased it to a NotProfit (Corporation du Fort St Jean) for 1$ and then paid the NotProfit lease and rent for the space it used.
The Surete du Quebec and other groups at least used to rent space there as well.

The Government did its best to "close it down" in order to show that they were cutting back.


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## dapaterson (23 Jul 2007)

Meridian:  Exactly.  And the Corporation Fort St Jean had (and likely still has) a lot of well-connected individuals on their board to ensure continued federal largesse flows their way - what's not to like about renting a property for $1 per year, then renting it back at considerable markup to the owner?

It might be interesting to cross-reference political donations by the Corporation and its officers with the flow of additional money to the Corporation... or am I far too cynical?


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## Meridian (23 Jul 2007)

CFSJ history, http://www.cfsj.qc.ca/A02-Historique.php

Sorry, its only in French.

Apparently though it says that in 2000, a 25 year lease was signed.


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## McG (23 Jul 2007)

Meridian said:
			
		

> Technically, MCG, that's not exactly accurate.


or rather, you are missing my use of the word "Base."  The Campus is not a Base, and even RMC depends very much of CFB Kingston for many of its services (including supply, medical, and transport).  Chilliwack has virtually nothing to support the return of its past units.  St Jean has a significant amount of infrastructure & services in place to support other large units.

ASU St Jean
CFLRS
CFLDC

Additionally, reviving CMR is building on the Richelieu Squadron.  There is not an ember of the old CFB Chilliwack lodger units remaining in Chilliwack from which to restor any of them.

BTW, if you've not picked up on it, I am not attempting to argue that re-opening CMR as a CGEP college is a good idea.  I am disagreeing with the previous ridiculous assertion that because a new CMR is opening we should also re-open other old bases just for the sake of having them open.


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## Meridian (23 Jul 2007)

Seen.

Though, CFLDC and Richelieu Squadron essentially had the same shared resources;  Richelieu Squadron was technically under the command of the Commandant of CFLDC when I was there, (though I don't think it was called CFLDC?)

We did indeed use most of the services of ASU St Jean, and in some cases, Farnham. 
The physical infrastructure of the Campus is, at least currently, not owned or maintained by DND either, so there isn't much outlay there... I'm still curious to see if they have applied for accreditation with the MEQ, or if they are going to continue to pay CEGEP St Jean Sur Richelieu for the priviledge of using their name and accreditation.  The more complicated thing was that the professors were actually paid by RMC and worked for Cont Ed (what is now CFLDC).

(Transcripts for all Prep Year Students don't show RMC anywhere, they show the logo and registrar's signature of CEGEP St Jean).


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## McG (24 Jul 2007)

Here is an English history of the campus which mentions the $1 per year lease.  http://www.cfsj.forces.gc.ca/index/engraph/misc/background_e.asp


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## Meridian (24 Jul 2007)

MCG said:
			
		

> Here is an English history of the campus which mentions the $1 per year lease.  http://www.cfsj.forces.gc.ca/index/engraph/misc/background_e.asp



I particularly like how the government then further gave a grant to invest.... lots of Govnt money flowing into a place the Govnt technically doesn't control.


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## Command-Sense-Act 105 (24 Jul 2007)

MCG, what did they do with the old CFOCS lines, the dining hall and OCdts mess in Chilliwack?  Are they all torn down?


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## Teddy Ruxpin (24 Jul 2007)

Nope, they're all still there.  The RCMP uses them as a training facility.  See here:

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/learning/prtc/facilities_e.htm


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## McG (25 Jul 2007)

and another large chunk of the old CFB Chilliwack is now an educational park (much like a business park but with different universities setting up satellite campuses).
http://www.chilliwacklife.com/chilliwack/chilliwack_education_park.html


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