# The stuff the Army issues is Excellent!



## daftandbarmy (9 Mar 2008)

OK, I had to do this. Glass half full folks... 

C7 and C9. Excellent weapons, and acknowledged as such by armies around the world

CADPAT fleece jacket and pants

The Gerber multi-tool. Awesome. And it's precursor the C5 knife - incomparable...

Thank You Canada!  :-*


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## DiamondDarryl (9 Mar 2008)

I'm not a C9 Advocate but Id have to agree about that fleece top. Number 1 piece of issued field kit. Have you got the issued Gerber or the issued SOG? SOG has got some major crushing power.


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## TCBF (9 Mar 2008)

- The new goretex Cbt Jackets.
- All of our parkas, except the 1974. 
- Thermal underwear.
- Muklucks!
- Windpants.
- The MagLine magnesium/aircraft cable snowshow (And yes, it WILL ignite if placed on a hot stove element).
- The bivy bag.
- The MG C6 (since 1979!)
- The Coleman Lantern and two-burner stove.
- Five and ten-man arctic tents.
- One and two man toboggans.
- All things John Moses Browning!!!


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## Fusaki (9 Mar 2008)

The LAV 3. There's something the army did right.

I like the fact that its wheeled. Without having much experience with tracked vehicles my impression is that the loss of tracked mobility is worth the survivability (will still roll with wheels blown off, but a slipped track is a mobility kill) and the less time spent doing maintenance.

The 25mm Bushmaster is THE Taliban killer in theatre. Its hard to back this one up with statistics, but I think guys most would agree that when you compare small arms, 155, or 105, the 25MM dishes out most of the punishment. These weapons systems have a role and are needed, but IMHO the 25MM is the backbone of the firepower we bring to the table.

The comms are decent. The systems we use arn't perfect, but you can usually get them to work. I'm not an expert on this stuff, but I don't think upgrading would be too much of an issue - provided that the money was there.

Plus you can carry the rest of the section in the back. It might be a tight squeeze with all the gear, but welcome to the army - if its not a tight squeeze then you're probably forgetting something behind.

***

The C9 is IMHO an awsome weapons system. There are better variants of the minimi out there, but it's still a solid LMG.

No one ever complains about the C6, unless you're the guy carrying it. Everyone else in the platoon loves it.

C8FTHB - a few bells and whistles would be nice, but its a great base to build on.

The Parka Shell is the most underrated piece of kit ever issued. Worn with with any combination of the fleece, stealth suit, softie, and polypro for 3 seasons of practical field wear.

Thats it for now...


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## KevinB (9 Mar 2008)

C6 and C9 should have had the hydralic buffers of their US versions...

I like the SOG tool issue version way better than the Gerber.


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## medaid (9 Mar 2008)

The thermos canteen muahahaha... Hot coffee any one?


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## armyvern (9 Mar 2008)

Ziploc bags ... 

Yes, there are indeed ziploc bags in the system that us suppies get to use for packaging etc ...

By far, the best little goodie I've had in the field (well second best -- the best goodie was the polaroid I was holding when a certain Major AJ fell into a latrine during one of those end-ex smokers).  >

SOG!!?? -- Is this the very same SOG that was brought into the system for the Field Engineers (and rolled out to all posns within 'entitled' UICs)?? You know -- the SOG with the crimping tool that the engineers aren't allowed to use for crimping (I know plenty who just continue to use their teeth instead due to the "no-crimping with the crimping tool message")?? Just goes to show you that as with every piece of kit --- some love it/some hate it ... and it doesn't always suit the purposes for which it was originally intended.


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## 421 EME (9 Mar 2008)

Size 14 goretex socks, when worn over your duffle socks in your mukluks keep your feet nice and dry in the winter when it get a little wet out.


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## PMedMoe (9 Mar 2008)

The ranger blanket.  ;D


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## RHFC_piper (9 Mar 2008)

LWT Balaclava, AKA. Ninja Mask...  GOLD.   Perfect for wearing under helmet, bush cap or even under the winter balaclava for extra comfort. It may not be the "best" piece of kit,  as most of the top pieces have already been mentioned, but I think it's pretty damn good.


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## daftandbarmy (9 Mar 2008)

KFS... no kidding. Some armies don't even provide them. And ours fits together in a nice little package!


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## Love793 (9 Mar 2008)

Mortar and AFV Gloves.


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## geo (9 Mar 2008)

64 Pat Rucksack
Goretex socks
Cdn IMPs


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## COBRA-6 (9 Mar 2008)

- polypro thermal underwear
- neck gaiter
- mortar gloves
- cadpat leather gloves
- black leather logistik unicorp gloves with wool liner 
- cold weather socks
- mucklucks
- arid t-shirt
- bivy bag
- black beauty air mattress
- cadpat camelbak
- goretex windpants
- goretex socks
- canteen, cup and stove


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## geo (9 Mar 2008)

Black beauty air mattress? - Pneumatic air mattress?


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## Franko (9 Mar 2008)

The old "Black Betty" air mattress, one prior to the self inflating one.

Lucky if you still have one. Their worth their weight in gold IMHO.

Regards


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## geo (9 Mar 2008)

Pneumatic air mattresses are / were great... xcept when, at half past very late, the plug would pop out & everyone in the tent would wake up & rock back & forth ..... checking to see if it was theirs that had shed it"s plug


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## CDNBlackhawk (9 Mar 2008)

agree with mostly everything here except i can honestly say i like the American IMPs allot better their the Canadian ones.

64 pattern ruck sack
Gerber
C9 LMG love this weapon
C8
LAV 3 and the 25 mm to go with it, probably best piece of kit we have
The New gortex rain gear


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## Staff Weenie (9 Mar 2008)

My old waffle pattern combat scarf - so many things you could do with it!

Anything fleece & anything gortex!

And 'Black Betty' - so multi-functional - air matress, toboggan, whatever....it was great


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## 2 Cdo (9 Mar 2008)

I would say anything clothing wise is a huge improvement over the crap I was originally issued with all those years ago. How did we survive without a bivbag or gortex?  ;D


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## 1feral1 (9 Mar 2008)

I would have to agree about the combat scarf, I still use my faded and tattered one here, as I do with my 'rubber lady', the 'Uniroyal' air mattress (when it permits, usually use my swag, as it protects one from the creepy crawlie things, and there is lots of them here).

As much as there is lots of negativity about the 1982 Ptrn ruck, it beats the Aussie issued backbreaker we have. I still ue my ruck, although faded beyond a joke, repaired here and ther, including welds to the wire crap frame.

See the pic of my swag, zipped in tight at night, no snakes, no ants, spiders, scorpions, centipeds, disease carrying mosquitos, etc. everyone has got one of these.

Cheers,

Wes


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## Yrys (9 Mar 2008)

Well, maybe I should look into army surplus next time I want to replace my camping tent
or any camping stuff...

(Title of the thread made me smile, after the passion show in the opposite one)


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## daftandbarmy (9 Mar 2008)

Wesley  Down Under said:
			
		

> I would have to agree about the combat scarf, I still use my faded and tattered one here, as I do with my 'rubber lady', the 'Uniroyal' air mattress (when it permits, usually use my swag, as it protects one from the creepy crawlie things, and there is lots of them here).
> 
> As much as there is lots of negativity about the 1982 Ptrn ruck, it beats the Aussie issued backbreaker we have. I still ue my ruck, although faded beyond a joke, repaired here and ther, including welds to the wire crap frame.
> 
> ...



How does it hold up during a good downpour?


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## 1feral1 (10 Mar 2008)

Its water proofed canvas, so it can handle a shower, but on a wet night we have tarps up in an area which will fit several of us, If its a monsoon, no luck, sleep in the cab or the pod, back of a LAV,as there is usually 4-6 inches sitting on the ground - everywhere. 


Cheers,

Wes


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## X-mo-1979 (10 Mar 2008)

25mm...
Um that reminds me of another peice of kit which I think is the best thing ever issued.

Leopard 2A6.

25mm that.... ;D


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## Matt_Fisher (10 Mar 2008)

The CF issued (USGI type) cot is amazingly comfortable, although it can be a bear to get it set up.

Another great piece of kit is the mosquitoe headnet.  Goofy looking, but I've got many a good night sleep in bug infested parts by wearing it when I bed down.


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## Shamrock (10 Mar 2008)

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> The CF issued (USGI type) cot is amazingly comfortable, although it can be a bear to get it set up.



Just gotta go to QM and get a crank issued.


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## TCBF (10 Mar 2008)

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> The CF issued (USGI type) cot is amazingly comfortable, although it can be a bear to get it set up.
> 
> Another great piece of kit is the mosquitoe headnet.  Goofy looking, but I've got many a good night sleep in bug infested parts by wearing it when I bed down.



- I leave an end bar loose on the cot.  Saves teeth.

- Which serves to remind me of another piece of good kit: The Insect Bar.  Preferably the older ones that allowed you to sit up underneath them.


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## mover1 (10 Mar 2008)

The two piece Tac Hel Flying suit!

It was hot down here to day and we were doing some load exercises on the C-17. It took the top portion off and worked in my t-shirt while the Yanks, Aussies and Brits looked on in envy.


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## Nfld Sapper (10 Mar 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Ziploc bags ...
> 
> Yes, there are indeed ziploc bags in the system that us suppies get to use for packaging etc ...
> 
> ...



Any way you can issue me some new teeth Vern?  ;D


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## daftandbarmy (10 Mar 2008)

10 ton HLVW. Great for crushing less useful smaller vehicles


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## Kat Stevens (10 Mar 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Ziploc bags ...
> 
> Yes, there are indeed ziploc bags in the system that us suppies get to use for packaging etc ...
> 
> ...




No Sapper with even a half decently developed brain stem would ever crimp a det with his teeth.  That would be grounds for a Baillie carrying handle up the jacksie.


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## armyvern (10 Mar 2008)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> No Sapper with even a half decently developed brain stem would ever crimp a det with his teeth.  That would be grounds for a Baillie carrying handle up the jacksie.



Talk to NFLD ...


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## daftandbarmy (10 Mar 2008)

The Silva compass, in mils. Indestructible and accurate (in the right hands, of course). Miles ahead of equivalent compasses issued by other countries.


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## Kat Stevens (10 Mar 2008)

Know how I got to be an OLD thumperhead?  By never putting a finger anywhere I wouldn't put my dick, and not putting noisy party favours anywhere near the old brain case housing assembly, C1.


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## armyvern (10 Mar 2008)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Know how I got to be an OLD thumperhead?  By never putting a finger anywhere I wouldn't put my dick, and not putting noisy party favours anywhere near the old brain case housing assembly, C1.



You're not old, (Vern sucking up) but I get where you're coming from.


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## daftandbarmy (10 Mar 2008)

The sewing kit. 'nuff said.


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## dapaterson (11 Mar 2008)

And of course, the folks who issue the kit!


(+1 to Vern, right Vern?   )


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## TCBF (11 Mar 2008)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Know how I got to be an OLD thumperhead?  By never putting a finger anywhere I wouldn't put my dick, ...



- Dare I ask, "How do you eat fried chicken?"

 ;D


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## OldSolduer (11 Mar 2008)

CadPat Fleece
ICES clothing
Mukluks
Ballistic Eyewear...how eyes could have been saved? Fovgive my bitterness, but some of the old codgers would freak out at the style, and I daresay some of the currently serving codgers don't care for them......but that's toooooooo bad. They are an issue item.
The C6 GPMG with the Sustained Fire Kit - great on its own and better when used with the other MG....the .50 cal HMG. 
The fancey headovers/balacalava.....sometimes too warm, but hey......
The Lav III - 

There are more I could name, but I don't want to bore yall!!!


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## Colin Parkinson (11 Mar 2008)

The air force box lunch was an amazing sight to behold, bulging with all sorts of food, left the army box lunches to shame.


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## NL_engineer (11 Mar 2008)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> No Sapper with even a half decently developed brain stem would ever crimp a det with his teeth.  That would be grounds for a Baillie carrying handle up the jacksie.



he just doesn't relies there are tunes of the old crimpers (the ones that we can't use any more  :) in tp stores  ;D


To add to the list, the double crimp crimpers (the newer non metallic EOD Pro ones), when you can get them  :


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## KevinB (11 Mar 2008)

I crimp with the SOG -- I dont read memo's I dont like  


SF kit -- good when new -- unfortunately most are past their prime.


CADPAT FLEECE - WTF over -- since fleece is/is not an outer garment -- why bother?  The Green worked well - and we could have saved millions - maybe got a good tacvest replacement


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## Matt_Fisher (11 Mar 2008)

Colin P said:
			
		

> The air force box lunch was an amazing sight to behold, bulging with all sorts of food, left the army box lunches to shame.



Box lunches bulging with food = Troops bulging at the seams of their combats.


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## OldSolduer (11 Mar 2008)

Infidel-6:
Although I do tend to agree....the CadPat fleece is softer and not as stiff as the old fleece. More comfortable in my opinioin.
And the SF kits are getting long in the tooth.

More good kit - The new helmet is a darn site better than the old M1 tin pot.
Coleman two burner.....our personal one is over 25 years old....still goes as if new.


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## westie47 (11 Mar 2008)

I like the parade boots, ankle


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## OldSolduer (11 Mar 2008)

Anklle Boots.....I hate those!! Mind you, they're the shiniest in the Unit....as the CSM should be!!


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## Gunner98 (11 Mar 2008)

Soft (scratch prevention) covers for the BEW.  The prescription inserts for BEW and Gas Mask, replacing combat spectacles.  

ISDL, RSDL replacing the Fuller's Earth Mitt.


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## geo (11 Mar 2008)

Heh... I have been building the shine on mine for over 30+ years.... 
One of the few pairs still around that are fully "shod"...


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## alfie (11 Mar 2008)

For all the eme types...
Crows foot for spark plugs


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## OldSolduer (11 Mar 2008)

Geo do you still have the original issue low shoes?.....mine are in the closet....most comfortable shoes I own, and I've had them now for almost 33 years...
Oh the Forage Cap what an exellent piece of kit!!


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## medaid (11 Mar 2008)

BEW is a god send. If I had it during my SQ then I would've never gotten that hot empty casing in my eye...


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## Eye In The Sky (11 Mar 2008)

- the little 'stove' w/fuel tablet kit for the canteen cup.  Loved it;
- knee high Gortex socks;
- bivy bags;
- gun tape; and
- LMCs!


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## NL_engineer (11 Mar 2008)

MedTech said:
			
		

> BEW is a god send. If I had it during my SQ then I would've never gotten that hot empty casing in my eye...



you must be a lefty


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## medaid (11 Mar 2008)

NL_engineer said:
			
		

> you must be a lefty



That's the funny thing I wasn't a lefty. I was a righty... and some how I got a casing in my eye :|


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## RTaylor (11 Mar 2008)

The best thing the military ever issued me was a paycheck  ;D

Always liked the old combat boots without any liner or anything, once they were worn in omg comfortable. I loved them so much. Haven't been re-enlisted to check out the new ones.


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## COBRA-6 (11 Mar 2008)

Frostnipped Elf said:
			
		

> ISDL, RSDL replacing the Fuller's Earth Mitt.



and the new Horizon CADPAT CBRN suit is much much better than the old one! The C4 mask is great as well, though not a lot of fun to wear  ;D


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## TCBF (11 Mar 2008)

RTaylor said:
			
		

> ... Always liked the old combat boots without any liner or anything, ...



Mk. I: 1960s, no insoles, round eyelets.
Mk II: Early 1970s?, insoles, speed lacing (metal ringlets for eyelets). Grebs.
Mk III: Late 70s?, insoles, round eyelets. Grebs and Sunbeams.
GP: 2007?, orthotic-friendly insoles, round bottom four sets of eyelets, top six sets ringlets. Boulets?


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## TCBF (11 Mar 2008)

COBRA-6 said:
			
		

> and the new Horizon CADPAT CBRN suit is much much better than the old one! The C4 mask is great as well, though not a lot of fun to wear  ;D



- CASCAD: Cdn Aqueous Soln for Chem Agent Decon.  Great stuff!


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## Rice0031 (11 Mar 2008)

COBRA-6 said:
			
		

> and the new Horizon CADPAT CBRN suit is much much better than the old one! The C4 mask is great as well, though not a lot of fun to wear  ;D



Comfortable CBRN gear??? It has to be a trick 

Personally I like the arctic mitts that look like mukluks on your hands. Really good in the winter when you don't need to be doing anything that requires too much dexterity.
Though, to be fair, if I had a pair of properly-fitting winter gloves I'd probably be more content with those...


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## RTaylor (11 Mar 2008)

mkIII I think, was 99-2000


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## armyvern (11 Mar 2008)

RTaylor said:
			
		

> mkIII I think, was 99-2000



Uhmmm,

You're out by just a couple of decades --- see TCBFs post below (I got issued them when I joined in the 80s).


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## medaid (11 Mar 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Uhmmm,
> 
> You're out by just a couple of decades --- see TCBFs post below (I got issued them when I joined in the 80s).



No wonder they're crap  80's tech


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## R711 (11 Mar 2008)

Salt and pepper wool mitts
MkIII combat boots 
knee high gortex socks
poncho liner
64 pattern rucksack
R711 OUT


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## catalyst (11 Mar 2008)

The new gortex gloves  
Arctic tents
Grey PT sweatpants and sweatshirt - sooo comfy
The OD IECS jacket (I have a cadpat one too - however I prefer the OD one)
Muklucks
IMPs
Mortar gloves - I wasn't issued them, but borrowed somebodies and they were awesome.


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## Pte.Butt (11 Mar 2008)

COBRA-6 said:
			
		

> and the new Horizon CADPAT CBRN suit is much much better than the old one! The C4 mask is great as well, though not a lot of fun to wear  ;D



I wouldn't imagine there is any gas mask fun to wear! The C4 mask is a love hate thing for me, I don't mind it all when the mouth piece is sealed around my nose/bridge of nose. If it isn't every time I breath I get a nice burst of air into my right eye. This only usually happens after  sweating and/or applying RSDL all over my face. Maybe I autta get a new face issued to me, one that fits my mask!  ;D  

I personally like the thermal underwear, my firs time in the field is this weekend, so I guess I will be able to have a more thorough opinion on them.
I love my MK III's though after they are broken in, with a nice pair of insoles that are like walking on clouds (atleast for me they are!)


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## RCR Grunt (11 Mar 2008)

The CADPAT combat chaps!

(Vern, reference gutter, your mind, out of it.)

I'm talking bib pants here people.  They rock, I am newly converted to the combat chaps.  

Standing around waiting for a while?  Do them up nice and snug!

Working, humping through the bush, or attacking something?  Unzip the legs to ventilate!   You can zip back up when your done!

I love em, and will be breaking them out alot more often.


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## Yrys (11 Mar 2008)

RCR Grunt said:
			
		

> I love em, and will be breaking them out alot more often.



So you're saying to ArmyVern that she soon will have more pics for her collection  > ?


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## Kat Stevens (11 Mar 2008)

TCBF said:
			
		

> - Dare I ask, "How do you eat fried chicken?"
> 
> ;D



Knife and fork, you?


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## geo (12 Mar 2008)

I try to avoid exploding chickens


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## mover1 (12 Mar 2008)

The new sock system, 
Termal underwear 
and the old wool collared shirt


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## Gunner98 (12 Mar 2008)

ButtA said:
			
		

> I wouldn't imagine there is any gas mask fun to wear! The C4 mask is a love hate thing for me, I don't mind it all when the mouth piece is sealed around my nose/bridge of nose. If it isn't every time I breath I get a nice burst of air into my right eye. This only usually happens after  sweating and/or applying RSDL all over my face. Maybe I autta get a new face issued to me, one that fits my mask!  ;D
> 
> I personally like the thermal underwear, my firs time in the field is this weekend, so I guess I will be able to have a more thorough opinion on them.
> I love my MK III's though after they are broken in, with a nice pair of insoles that are like walking on clouds (atleast for me they are!)



Try opening the chin cap to prevent that blast of air and to allow you to spit out the excess saliva/SDL.  Trust me there are more comfortable masks used by other countries but if you want to die comfortable I think you are in the wrong business - they don't provide the same level of protection.  If you haven't been through the quantative fit testing tent lately, then maybe your mask is the wrong size.


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## daftandbarmy (12 Mar 2008)

Field message pads. What other army in the world has the sense to issue those?


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## geo (12 Mar 2008)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Field message pads. What other army in the world has the sense to issue those?



Ahhh.... remember the days when you'd prepare your orders on the back of a pack of smokes?
(well yeah it was a pack of 25, king size :warstory: )


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## OldSolduer (12 Mar 2008)

Question?

Is the FMP an issue item anymore? I've almost run out, and it is highly impractical to carry a laptop on a coy attack!! ;D


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## geo (12 Mar 2008)

Talk to your SQMS / CQMS... he should be able to fix you up
Some places have started issuing the MP notepads in FMPs stead.... 

The FMPs NSN still exists.... it should still be available -  unless you haven't been nice to your RQMS


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## daftandbarmy (12 Mar 2008)

.... and one of these days they will issue the FMP covers as well. But I can dream, can't I?


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## Franko (12 Mar 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Some places have started issuing the MP notepads....



Wouldn't mind getting a few more of those as they have become scarce in the past few years.

Perfect size for garrison work.

Regards


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## TCBF (12 Mar 2008)

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> Question?
> 
> Is the FMP an issue item anymore? I've almost run out, and it is highly impractical to carry a laptop on a coy attack!! ;D



FIELD MESSAGE BOOK
CF 709 (10-80) 
7530-21-883-3596

The Military Police notebooks SHOULD be restricted to MP use only.


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## armyvern (12 Mar 2008)

TCBF said:
			
		

> The Military Police notebooks SHOULD be restricted to MP use only.



Noooooo. I love mine -- it fits in my pocket so well.


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## Nfld Sapper (12 Mar 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Noooooo. I love mine -- it fits in my pocket so well.



So does the ones I got from the VA National Guard


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## X-mo-1979 (12 Mar 2008)

Oh
I finally thought of one!

Those medal clipboards.Those rock.


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## 421 EME (12 Mar 2008)

TCBF said:
			
		

> FIELD MESSAGE BOOK
> CF 709 (10-80)
> 7530-21-883-3596
> 
> The Military Police notebooks SHOULD be restricted to MP use only.


 For what, writing down all the orders for the TIM HORTONS run for all MPs in the unit.


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## dangerboy (12 Mar 2008)

Shirt cold weather, field.  I love this shirt for winter ops, the CSM keeps reminding me that fleece is now in the system, but he has not banned me from wearing it.  At least not yet.


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## daftandbarmy (13 Mar 2008)

The good old PRC 77 set. Weighed a ton but, unlike many of my old dates, was easy to work in the dark and always put out.  ;D


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## Teeps74 (13 Mar 2008)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> The good old PRC 77 set. Weighed a ton but, unlike many of my old dates, was easy to work in the dark and always put out.  ;D



Ahh gee whiz, a radio that actually worked. I used to curse that thing, now I would give a select body part for a couple of those for my PL.  

AN/PRC 77 set AKA prick 77 (as I called it), I miss you.


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## Matt_Fisher (13 Mar 2008)

dangerboy said:
			
		

> Shirt cold weather, field.



I'll second that.  The 'wool flannel shirt' was my field smock/patrolling jacket from October through April.  
I look at this piece of kit as the 'original' softshell jacket.  It was warm, yet breathable to allow sweat to evaporate, but the wool was so tightly woven, it was pretty windproof.  Repelled water like a champ, although snow would stick to it a bit. Very quiet, yet abrasion resistant.  Also, it was somewhat fire retardant, and didn't melt if burnt.  If we had an unlimited raw materials budget, I'd love to have a batch of that wool fabric dyed in Cadpat TW and AR and done into a modernized design, i.e. more weatherproof collar, pit zips for ventilation, and better pockets.


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## GAP (13 Mar 2008)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> The good old PRC 77 set. Weighed a ton but, unlike many of my old dates, was easy to work in the dark and always put out.  ;D



We gave up on them....to erratic for consistency.....

The PRC-25 was the most dependable unit we had, but the atmospherics and batteries could play hell with it, as could the carbon elements in the handsets...


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## geo (13 Mar 2008)

Heh.... still have my old 53 pat Parka.  Full nylon shell on the outside and "borg" lining on the inside made it an easy choice.  Throw it in the washer, throw it in the dryer & you were good to go.  (nogo anywhere near an airfield)

Had many a newwbie come up to me and ask - what country it came from & where they could find one?


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## TCBF (13 Mar 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Heh.... still have my old 53 pat Parka.  Full nylon shell on the outside and "borg" lining on the inside made it an easy choice.  Throw it in the washer, throw it in the dryer & you were good to go.  (nogo anywhere near an airfield)
> 
> Had many a newwbie come up to me and ask - what country it came from & where they could find one?



- Parka, Extreme Cold Weather, 1951? I gave mine to a military museum!


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## daftandbarmy (13 Mar 2008)

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> I'll second that.  The 'wool flannel shirt' was my field smock/patrolling jacket from October through April.
> I look at this piece of kit as the 'original' softshell jacket.  It was warm, yet breathable to allow sweat to evaporate, but the wool was so tightly woven, it was pretty windproof.  Repelled water like a champ, although snow would stick to it a bit. Very quiet, yet abrasion resistant.  Also, it was somewhat fire retardant, and didn't melt if burnt.  If we had an unlimited raw materials budget, I'd love to have a batch of that wool fabric dyed in Cadpat TW and AR and done into a modernized design, i.e. more weatherproof collar, pit zips for ventilation, and better pockets.



Sounds like you've just talked yourself into developing a new product (that might grab the attention of people on this forum).  If they can sell Merino wool shirts for 200 bucks these days, why not a khaki equivalent - eco colours - for at least half that?


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## TCBF (13 Mar 2008)

- Don't we have enough 'camping gear' now?  When will we start replacing items instead of augmenting them?
- My first winter ex, I had the white 'fishnet' arctic singlet, wool shirt flannel (X2), Sweater hi-neck (khaki), balaclava (khaki), flannel trousers (OG jammies), Windpants X51, Parka 1951, Mitts Arctic C1, TF mitts, AC gloves, Rucksack Universal C2, Sleeping Bag 1951 complete, Mattress Pneumatic, Socks Wool Gray (2 pr), Muckluks complete, Snowshoes (Arnprior MagLine), FN C1, Ration Pack RP-4.

- That was it.


----------



## geo (13 Mar 2008)

TCBF said:
			
		

> - Parka, Extreme Cold Weather, 1951? I gave mine to a military museum!


I just use mine for shoveling the walk & keep it in the trunk for trips to the country.
The new parka is "at last" something worth wearing....


----------



## daftandbarmy (13 Mar 2008)

TCBF said:
			
		

> I had the white 'fishnet' arctic singlet,



Were you the guy wearing it in that disco in Toronto?  ;D


----------



## TCBF (13 Mar 2008)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Were you the guy wearing it in that disco in Toronto?  ;D



- What's a Disco?
- What's Toronto?

 8)


----------



## garb811 (13 Mar 2008)

421 EME said:
			
		

> For what, writing down all the orders for the TIM HORTONS run for all MPs in the unit.



Ahh yes...always someone deciding an asinine shot at the MPs is in order.   Hahahaha...funny, and a Timmie's joke too, how original.  Grow up.  :

The reason so many MP notebooks hit general circulation was due to a change in the info at the front of the notebook while there were a huge number of them in stock.  Rather than just dump them it was decided to release them for general use and literally pallet loads of them were available for any unit that wanted to pick them up.  I was surprised at how popular they became and it's too bad there isn't a generic notebook that size available. I'd certainly like one that size for day to day use.


----------



## Redeye (13 Mar 2008)

Teeps74 said:
			
		

> Ahh gee whiz, a radio that actually worked. I used to curse that thing, now I would give a select body part for a couple of those for my PL.
> 
> AN/PRC 77 set AKA prick 77 (as I called it), I miss you.



Read somewhere that the British Army's "answer" to TCCCS (which itself, I sometimes think, was the answer to a question no one asked), is called BOWMAN.  It's alleged to stand for "Better Off With Map (or Magellan) and Nokia".


----------



## geo (13 Mar 2008)

... umm... something about adding all those bells & whistles to a basic radio system comes to mind.


----------



## daftandbarmy (13 Mar 2008)

Glo- sticks, in various sizes...


----------



## TN2IC (13 Mar 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Ahhh.... remember the days when you'd prepare your orders on the back of a pack of smokes?
> (well yeah it was a pack of 25, king size :warstory: )




OMG.. I remember doing that!


----------



## Teeps74 (13 Mar 2008)

garb811 said:
			
		

> Ahh yes...always someone deciding an asinine shot at the MPs is in order.   Hahahaha...funny, and a Timmie's joke too, how original.  Grow up.  :
> 
> The reason so many MP notebooks hit general circulation was due to a change in the info at the front of the notebook while there were a huge number of them in stock.  Rather than just dump them it was decided to release them for general use and literally pallet loads of them were available for any unit that wanted to pick them up.  I was surprised at how popular they became and it's too bad there isn't a generic notebook that size available. I'd certainly like one that size for day to day use.



I suppose a supply tech could ask PSTC where to get those nifty MILOBS notebooks (identical to the MP notebooks, just the frontpage stuff is different, and I find very useful).

They are probably only a fin code away for some units.


----------



## Matt_Fisher (13 Mar 2008)

Re: MP/MILOBS notebooks; I've never seen them before, but would like to know if anybody'd be interested in having a FMP type cover done for them.  If you'd be willing to send me one of each, I'll do up a custom cover for FREE, so that I can get the dimensions.


----------



## LordOsborne (14 Mar 2008)

Redeye said:
			
		

> Read somewhere that the British Army's "answer" to TCCCS (which itself, I sometimes think, was the answer to a question no one asked), is called BOWMAN.  It's alleged to stand for "Better Off With Map (or Magellan) and Nokia".



I can't find it on Google, but I remember reading a British Army officer commenting on the Clansman radio sytem during the invasion of Iraq, saying "the next country we invade better have Vodafone coverage" or something to that effect.


----------



## garb811 (14 Mar 2008)

Matt:

One of the main reasons many folks like these notebooks so much is they fit perfectly into the breast pocket.  Throwing a cover on them would probably negate that.


----------



## daftandbarmy (14 Mar 2008)

PatrickO said:
			
		

> I can't find it on Google, but I remember reading a British Army officer commenting on the Clansman radio sytem during the invasion of Iraq, saying "the next country we invade better have Vodafone coverage" or something to that effect.



I can back up that comment. We had to use USMC radios at one point to get comms with our units after our Clansman sets crapped out on us. With the exception of the 320 set (HF), the rest of the system was seriously flawed. The (non-Clansman) VHF systems we used in NI were excellent though - fully encripted, light and easy to use. Too bad we didn't have anything like them for general use.


----------



## geo (14 Mar 2008)

I saw a bunch of FMPs that had been sawn in half (making 2 out of 1) to make a bunch of smaller note pads.
They weren,t elegant but, they were about the size of the MP pads & handy in garrison.


----------



## axeman (14 Mar 2008)

After using the fmp cut style ones i found them better then the mp ones as you can remove pages but the down side to it all is it workrd way better with the older ones not the new wire wrao top style ones...


----------



## Matt_Fisher (14 Mar 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> I saw a bunch of FMPs that had been sawn in half (making 2 out of 1) to make a bunch of smaller note pads.
> They weren,t elegant but, they were about the size of the MP pads & handy in garrison.



So, you're talking about something like this?
http://www.cpgear.com/default.asp?mn=1.19.56&f=pd&pid=41

With a cover like this?
http://www.cpgear.com/default.asp?mn=1.19.56&f=pd&pid=12

Which all fit in the breast pocket of the CF Combat Shirt.


----------



## geo (14 Mar 2008)

absolutely.


----------



## Haggis (14 Mar 2008)

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> So, you're talking about something like this?
> http://www.cpgear.com/default.asp?mn=1.19.56&f=pd&pid=41
> 
> With a cover like this?
> ...



But why should we have to buy them?  If the Army wants us to take notes, then the Army can supply the notebooks.


----------



## TCBF (14 Mar 2008)

Haggis said:
			
		

> But why should we have to buy them?  If the Army wants us to take notes, then the Army can supply the notebooks.



- The Army DOES supply the notebooks.  If we want a different notebook than the Army supplies, we can buy it ourselves.


----------



## geo (14 Mar 2008)

»Heh.... the ones I saw had just been sawn in half with a band saw.  They look like the ones Matt was showing.... but had been obtained via the supply system


----------



## X-mo-1979 (5 Jun 2008)

Those new ballistic goggles we got issued in Wainwright.

As well and the new army rain gear,cats rear.


----------



## daftandbarmy (9 Jun 2008)

CADPAT hemet cam cover with neck flap for sun protection.


----------



## daftandbarmy (12 Sep 2008)

The boot laces.

No kidding, we have great boot laces. Others I have worn actually BREAK, which I've never experienced with our laces.


----------



## davidk (12 Sep 2008)

The laces that came on MkIIIs were indeed excellent - I think they were treated with some sort of wax, because they never seemed to get wet. But I found that the laces on the WWB tended to break on the metal speed lacing loops.


----------



## TCBF (12 Sep 2008)

- The laces breaking on my Mk. IIIs broke because the round eyelets began to degrade and their inner seams opened up, thus allowing the metal eyelet edges to saw away at the lace as the boot moved.

- Other than that, worst enemy of combat boot laces was walking across a field littered with TOW missile guidance wire.  That stuff just garrotes bootlaces.


----------



## tankie (17 Sep 2008)

Wowsers daftandbarmy, i had no idea that the CDN's get the lock tother camping KFS! i suguesst nicking a silver table spoon from the Officers Mess and using that for your rats, the contents are still s***, but it tastes much better on a silver spoon!


----------



## daftandbarmy (17 Sep 2008)

tankie said:
			
		

> Wowsers daftandbarmy, i had no idea that the CDN's get the lock tother camping KFS! i suguesst nicking a silver table spoon from the Officers Mess and using that for your rats, the contents are still s***, but it tastes much better on a silver spoon!



A good Officer always borrows his signallers' racing spoon, after a thorough 'lick cleaning' of course. It's hard to get rid of the lovely taste of a nice curry though!


----------



## Soldier1stTradesman2nd (17 Sep 2008)

The Mk III boots (with Vibram soles and Spencos  ;D). Both pairs are going strong since basic (over a decade ago). Must have been from a good batch.


----------



## NL_engineer (18 Sep 2008)

I'd have to say the KFS  ;D

Now if I could just get another holder, as I had to turn mine in with my webbing years ago  :


----------



## TN2IC (18 Sep 2008)

LSVW!!!  ;D

It taught me how to do repairs on the highway.


----------



## armyvern (19 Sep 2008)

NL_engineer said:
			
		

> ...
> Now if I could just get another holder, as I had to turn mine in with my webbing years ago  :



... I can give you an update on the status of the new holders as soon as I get back into work this morning ... I know it came into my inbox while I was in Borden ...


----------



## PuckChaser (19 Sep 2008)

I would have to say the new CADPAT Gas Mask carrier is awesome. The 2 Velcro pieces are longer that just the size required to hang it off your TV/straps, making it less likely to fall off, and there is a cool Velcro strap that goes over the opening handle to keep it closed when you want it to.


----------



## daftandbarmy (21 Sep 2008)

51 Pattern ammo pouches. Awesome for carrying just about anything. I wish they were made in some kind of synthetic material.


----------



## TCBF (21 Sep 2008)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> 51 Pattern ammo pouches. Awesome for carrying just about anything. I wish they were made in some kind of synthetic material.



- You are spot on.   Why, even with 82 pattern, we still had the Basic Pouch (AKA "Bren Magazine Pouches") for holding the SMG EIS.


----------



## daftandbarmy (21 Sep 2008)

TCBF said:
			
		

> - You are spot on.   Why, even with 82 pattern, we still had the Basic Pouch (AKA "Bren Magazine Pouches") for holding the SMG EIS.



We used to attach them to the feed trays for the GPMGs in my platoon in the UK - I took a few with me. They held 1/2 belt with no problems, without stoppages. I was a popular guy... for a change.


----------



## TCBF (21 Sep 2008)

Soldier1stTradesman2nd said:
			
		

> The Mk III boots (with Vibram soles and Spencos  ;D). Both pairs are going strong since basic (over a decade ago). Must have been from a good batch.



- Desk job, eh?

 ;D


----------



## Colin Parkinson (22 Sep 2008)

TCBF said:
			
		

> - You are spot on.   Why, even with 82 pattern, we still had the Basic Pouch (AKA "Bren Magazine Pouches") for holding the SMG EIS.



You mean the two pouches for the FN mags, with the lift straps? You can buy those surplus, I also have a couple of the pouches designed for 3 SMG mags. The pattern before 51 (tan canvas) had a backpack which neatly fitted 2 ammo cans.


----------



## Soldier1stTradesman2nd (24 Sep 2008)

TCBF said:
			
		

> - Desk job, eh?
> 
> ;D



True - they're not getting the wear and tear they used to nowadays.  OK, so they have been well used for just under a decade then (not really liking the desk jockey part  )

Time to wear out the seat of my pants and the back of the combat shirt.


----------



## OldSolduer (24 Sep 2008)

Anyone ever thought of CADPAT spandex?


----------



## PMedMoe (24 Sep 2008)

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> Anyone ever thought of CADPAT spandex?


----------



## Shamrock (25 Sep 2008)

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> Anyone ever thought of CADPAT spandex?



I hadn't until now, thanks.


----------



## daftandbarmy (25 Sep 2008)

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> Anyone ever thought of CADPAT spandex?



We've already got it in the mortar gloves. Can the one piece bodysuit be far behind?


The Light Weight Thermal/Mortar Glove will provide thermal and wind protection to the hands of mortar crews during mortar operations in cold weather conditions. Mortar crew will be able to maintain bomb grip, operate sights etc., when using the glove under cold conditions. 
Description – The Lightweight Thermal/Mortar Glove is a form-fitting one-piece glove that has a green woven nylon/*spandex * face laminated to a polyester/*spandex * fleece next-to-skin layer, which provides stretch and recovery in all directions. The palm, fingers, and thumb of the glove are reinforced with black goatskin leather that has been chemically treated to provide increased gripping ability, abrasion resistance, and water resistance.  

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/Chief_Land_Staff/Clothe_the_soldier/hab/2/232_e.asp


----------



## armyvern (25 Sep 2008)

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> Anyone ever thought of CADPAT spandex?



Well, I have a cadpat bra and thong - will that suffice?  >


----------



## armyvern (25 Sep 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

>




We'll need 15 000 DPI pixels to even begin attempting to make that look good on a local around here ...  :-X


----------



## daftandbarmy (25 Sep 2008)

C1 Protractor. Do they still issue those? Awesome bit of kit, especially if you needed a field expedient windshield scraper.


----------



## armyvern (25 Sep 2008)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> C1 Protractor. Do they still issue those? Awesome bit of kit, especially if you needed a field expedient windshield scraper.



We still issue them from clothing ... not as popular as they once were though. I damn well loved those lil gadgets.


----------



## medaid (25 Sep 2008)

what are those? C1 Protractor?


----------



## dangerboy (25 Sep 2008)

MedTech said:
			
		

> what are those? C1 Protractor?


----------



## geo (25 Sep 2008)

Protractor, there's something I don't hear people talking about too much.... But still got a 30 yr old version tucked away in my FMP cover.  Never leave home (for the field) without it


----------



## Teeps74 (25 Sep 2008)

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> Anyone ever thought of CADPAT spandex?



Hmmm, on some, those tiny lil pixels would get huge very quickly, and lose all camouflage value.

And now that I am thought about it...

You are so off of my Christmas card list.


----------



## OldSolduer (25 Sep 2008)

Hahaha.....
Oh I was issued a sense of humor.....lol....anyone else?
They said I had to turn it in when I was promoted to MWO....I ignored the directive.....lol :blotto:


----------



## Colin Parkinson (28 Sep 2008)

I loved the CF watch, it came in a box marked “radioactive, do not wear except when in use” Take it out of box, attach to wrist, note time, take off watch place back in box, repeat as required


----------



## TCBF (29 Sep 2008)

Colin P said:
			
		

> I loved the CF watch, it came in a box marked “radioactive, do not wear except when in use” Take it out of box, attach to wrist, note time, take off watch place back in box, repeat as required



- Walking dead men, that's what we are.


----------



## BDTyre (10 Oct 2008)

I personally enjoy how the first thing one notices about the IMP bread is the "DO NOT EAT" on the package.  Then, after a few seconds, you realize it continues on with "Dessicant Pack" afterwards.


----------



## Bzzliteyr (10 Oct 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Well, I have a cadpat bra and thong - will that suffice?  >



And this is where we state "this thread is useless without pics"!!!


----------



## OldSolduer (10 Oct 2008)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> And this is where we state "this thread is useless without pics"!!!



Yes Vern....pictures! >


----------



## Danjanou (10 Oct 2008)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> C1 Protractor. Do they still issue those? Awesome bit of kit, especially if you needed a field expedient windshield scraper.



Just how old are you? ;D


----------



## Old Sweat (10 Oct 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Well, I have a cadpat bra and thong - will that suffice?  >



Will the pictures work? If cadpat is as good is claimed, will we be able to see it? Oooops, I don't think I like where this is headed. Anybody for a discussion of the merits of the button stick and the KFS?


----------



## PanaEng (10 Oct 2008)

I haven't had the IMPs for a while so not sure if these are the same quality but I used to pretty much worship the napkin that came with them. They were tough and sturdy, so I would use 1/4 of it and store the rest (in a ziploc, in a pocket). So, after a few days of IMPs, when nature called and you discovered that normal toilet paper just doesn't cut it...  
 ;D


----------



## PanaEng (10 Oct 2008)

I would be all for spandex cadpat but only issued on a merit system - independent of seniority but associated with BMI   8)


----------



## daftandbarmy (10 Oct 2008)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Just how old are you? ;D



Old enough to still carry a set of mess tins around with me in the field, but not old enough to forget who I am because of that practise  ;D


----------



## George Wallace (10 Oct 2008)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Old enough to still carry a set of mess tins around with me in the field, but not old enough to forget who I am because of that practise  ;D



The aluminium helps with those memory problems.    ;D


----------



## OldSolduer (10 Oct 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> The aluminium helps with those memory problems.    ;D



I remember eating out of those....what are they again? ;D


----------



## Old Sweat (10 Oct 2008)

Whatever they were, Silvo used to make them look real pretty.


----------



## Danjanou (10 Oct 2008)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Whatever they were, Silvo used to make them look real pretty.



Ah yes my Senior NCO course, melmac was banned and we ate out of our mess tins for nostalgia. Of course no ione thought to bring a spare set of inspection mess tins and my serial was a chickensh*t one. Someone really should market silvo as a condiment.

BTW for the record D&B taught me how to march.


----------



## marshall sl (10 Oct 2008)

March? Is that what you call it? Reminds me of MacAusland!!!


----------



## Danjanou (10 Oct 2008)

Well after he taught me the basics as a cadet I turned 17 joined the mo and fell under the evil influence of a dememted newly minted recently sun tanned M/Cpl who thought "order arms" involved a visit to the CQMS. ;D


----------



## daftandbarmy (10 Oct 2008)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> BTW for the record D&B taught me how to march.



OK, now I feel old. And we will will restrain ourselves from using the term 'dancing bear' in connection with Danjanou's drill.


----------



## noneck (10 Oct 2008)

We reserve the title "Dancing Bear" for someone else at 1650 Burrard. I guess a title that transcends Regimental History!


----------



## daftandbarmy (10 Oct 2008)

And speaking of mess tins, I'm here to tell you that the CF mess tins were about the best in the world - and as you can tell I've eaten out of my fair share of mess tins.

Here is why:

1) They are strong enough to survive any parachute descent, undented, in the outside pocket of a bergen
2) The corners are smaller, resulting in a nice, even, precise pour into one's metal mug, thermos, or someone else's mess tin
3) For some reason, the metal was far easier to scrub clean (in the unlikely event that you had the need to clean them outside of a course)
4) You can fit both mess tins into a C9 pouch, or the equivalent
5) The metal handles seemed sturdier than the competitor's mess tins
6) They are strong enough to be used for driving tent pegs, digging shell scrapes or leaving on an open fire roasting raw meat in for hours without deforming (don't ask me how I know)


----------



## Danjanou (10 Oct 2008)

noneck said:
			
		

> We reserve the title "Dancing Bear" for someone else at 1650 Burrard. I guess a title that transcends Regimental History!



Actually I never held the title of Dancing Bear during my tenure in Cinderellas Castle On Burrard, there was a lot of competition back then. Now the CSM was shockedimpressed by my skills on the dance floor at the Old Harp and Heather.

Back on topic, I'll agree re the old Bren  pouches. I hated them when first issued and quickly replaced them with M-14 pouches after a trip to Ft Lewis. However they made a comeback and I rigged them on both my 64 and 84 pattern. By the time I turned the stuff in there were 4 on there to carry all the crap that came with being a CSM (mine tape, glow sticks, plasti cuffs etc) as well as ammo, and stuff that went bang or boom.  I still have them in the box marked army crap out in the garden shed.


----------



## GAP (10 Oct 2008)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> And speaking of mess tins, I'm here to tell you that the CF mess tins were about the best in the world - and as you can tell I've eaten out of my fair share of mess tins.
> 
> Here is why:
> 
> ...



did the raw meat have a scaly tail attached?


----------



## OldSolduer (10 Oct 2008)

Cup, Canteen.

I've had many a mocha in mine on TQ 6B.


----------



## Bass ackwards (11 Oct 2008)

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> Cup, Canteen.
> 
> I've had many a mocha in mine on TQ 6B.



I had always disliked hot chocolate until someone handed me a "cup, canteen" full of the stuff one wintry night in Shilo in '83/84. I've enjoyed it ever since. 
That same winter -after being sent from the Battleschool to 3RCHA (still in Shilo...sigh)- I remember, one night on an exercise, being sent from the gun to the kitchen truck. Standing in line with a slung FN and the "cup, canteen" I had been told to make sure I had, wondering what this was all about  -until the guy in the truck poured a concoction of dark rum, butter, brown sugar and hot water into aforementioned cup.
Heavenly! 
For twenty-odd years, I've been trying with varying degrees of success to recreate that wondeful elixir I tasted that night.


----------



## daftandbarmy (11 Oct 2008)

Cup, Cateen - yes, first class. The British 44 pattern metal mug is awful in comparison. You have to layer 'black maskers' on the rim to avoid roasting your lips. Similar problems occur with the equivalent Norwegian and German products.


----------



## daftandbarmy (13 Oct 2008)

Never thought I'd hear myself say this, but the old 'rubber' raingear is quite good. Too bad they didn't come out with this a couple of decades ago instead of the old 'cellophane' grade rainsuit we had to use.

Far easier to carry than the new heavyweight CTS breathable stuff, especially if you're dismounted infantry. If we had a lightweight triple layer breathable suit issued as in the UK and US, instead of the breathable Iron Man suit we have now, I wouldn't be posting this.

The old rubber suit is guaranteed to keep the water out and warmth in. Gore-tex can only take so much pounding from the 'Wet Coast' monsoons before it gives out. I've taken it on a couple of civvy expeditions and it made my day...or week in one case. It's nice and baggy too, so it's easy to pull on quickly over your other kit, and the elastic waist belt's a good idea that I've never seen incorporated into an equivalent product from other countries.

I've still got my set in my ruck with a 'when all else fails' sticker on it.


----------



## PanaEng (13 Oct 2008)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Never thought I'd hear myself say this, but the old 'rubber' ...


Well, by what I read from other posters, this may not agree with them but I have another "Never thought I'd hear myself say this, but the old 'rubber' " boots 'gummby.'  They were great in at least one situation. I was on my 5A in Chilliwack - rainy season and we spent a few days doing defencive works and living in trenches (until we got evicted by the rising water table). Suddenly they were the best piece of kit we had. Hip waders would have come in handy during that course.


----------



## armyvern (13 Oct 2008)

You mean the "old" _*still*-in-the-system-boots-rubber-gumby-that-were-indeed-awesome-but-that-don't fit-over-our-new-footwear _ boots yes?  >


----------



## PanaEng (13 Oct 2008)

Yes, but I don't want to see a few pallets of them show up at my front door...  ;D


----------



## daftandbarmy (14 Oct 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> You mean the "old" _*still*-in-the-system-boots-rubber-gumby-that-were-indeed-awesome-but-that-don't fit-over-our-new-footwear _ boots yes?  >



Running shoes fit. Not too tactical, but desperate times call for desperate measures.


----------



## BDTyre (14 Oct 2008)

Bass ackwards said:
			
		

> I had always disliked hot chocolate until someone handed me a "cup, canteen" full of the stuff one wintry night in Shilo in '83/84. I've enjoyed it ever since.
> That same winter -after being sent from the Battleschool to 3RCHA (still in Shilo...sigh)- I remember, one night on an exercise, being sent from the gun to the kitchen truck. Standing in line with a slung FN and the "cup, canteen" I had been told to make sure I had, wondering what this was all about  -until the guy in the truck poured a concoction of dark rum, butter, brown sugar and hot water into aforementioned cup.
> Heavenly!
> For twenty-odd years, I've been trying with varying degrees of success to recreate that wondeful elixir I tasted that night.



We had that one night on an exercise.  It really helped too because it was an awkward brigade/IBTS ex that involved a lot of standing around in the snow and wondering how you could stop your toes from freezing.


----------



## daftandbarmy (16 Oct 2008)

Well, this one isn't so much WHAT the army issues but HOW.

I ordered a bunch of kit from Logistik Unicorp, online, and it arrived within a week. AND it all fits. Amazing. 

Is there any reason why we can't have this online order system as an option for all our kit?


----------



## Ecco (16 Oct 2008)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Is there any reason why we can't have this online order system as an option for all our kit?



Long story short, the answer is CADPAT/ops eqpt disposal regulations: Nobody cares about what happens to your DEU.  Not the case with ops clothing.
The second part is that the CF supply system must be able to provide the op kit in deployed and dangerous conditions.  We may not always have the luxury of civilians running the clothing store in theater (CANCAP).

You will see more and more items go on the Consolidated Clothing Contract (3C) from time to time, but there won't be much ops clothing.


----------



## armyvern (19 Oct 2008)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> AND it all fits. Amazing.



Yes, it is amazing ... considering that your sizes propogate to the Logistik system via peoplesoft from the CFSS sizes on your CF clothing docs which are maintained by your local supporting clothing stores.  

And, well they should be getting it to you in 5 days --- keeping their contract depends on it!! Also remember that in the grand scheme of things -- Logisitk-Unicorp is a vast civilian enterprise which is NOT subject to federal bureaucracy that the Canadian Forces Supply System is ... and that "we" - the CF - are a mere drop in their bucket ... the CF being one of their smallest customers.


----------



## daftandbarmy (19 Oct 2008)

Ecco said:
			
		

> Long story short, the answer is CADPAT/ops eqpt disposal regulations: Nobody cares about what happens to your DEU.  Not the case with ops clothing.
> The second part is that the CF supply system must be able to provide the op kit in deployed and dangerous conditions.  We may not always have the luxury of civilians running the clothing store in theater (CANCAP).
> 
> You will see more and more items go on the Consolidated Clothing Contract (3C) from time to time, but there won't be much ops clothing.



Well, the army's never had a problem at tracking me down in  the past when they want something back from me, so I don't see why they couldn't hit me up for the Tac Vest I have on issue whether it was sent to me by Fed Ex or issued by a storeman.


----------



## armyvern (19 Oct 2008)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Well, the army's never had a problem at tracking me down in  the past when they want something back from me, so I don't see why they couldn't hit me up for the Tac Vest I have on issue whether it was sent to me by Fed Ex or issued by a storeman.



The issue isn't with you - the issue is with the fact that cadpat is subject to CTAT/ITAR - meaning that employees working at civ companies dealing with it need security checks done. The civ company's handling our items like that need to be certified. They also need to certify their employees or any "visitors" to their business' who would come into contact with our controlled goods - or prevent those visitors from coming into contact.

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cr/SOR-2001-32/bo-ga:s_1_1//en#anchorbo-ga:s_1_1

DEU, of course, is subject to none of these regulations and that's why it's so much easier to go the civ supplier/provider route. 

As for the Army tracking you down - you wouldn't believe the numbers of troops now who come in to ask for new issues of cadpat and when asked where their stuff to exchange is say "I threw it in the garbage" ... it's absolutely amazing how thick in the skull some troops are. You may not be one of them ... but I can only imagine how many would come out of the woodwork that I've yet to meet should their cadpat get delivered to their door - there's a whole bunch of them who really would take that as a signal to chuck out all their other stuff. Sure, we could track them down looking for it, but if they've already tossed it, donated it (yep - we've had them do that too  :) or given it away -- it's a little too late to be tracking them down - the stuff is already gone out where it shouldn't be.


----------



## geo (19 Oct 2008)

If I had a troop tell me "I threw it in the trash"..... I'd send him dumpster diving AND would certainly look at ways of developing his mind - so that same said error won't happen again.


----------



## armyvern (19 Oct 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> If I had a troop tell me "I threw it in the trash"..... I'd send him dumpster diving AND would certainly look at ways of developing his mind - so that same said error won't happen again.



This is why I experience aneurysms weekly ...  :-\


----------



## geo (19 Oct 2008)

I feel for ya Vern, I feel for ya


----------



## George Wallace (19 Oct 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> .....................- you wouldn't believe the numbers of troops now who come in to ask for new issues of cadpat and when asked where their stuff to exchange is say "I threw it in the garbage" ... it's absolutely amazing how thick in the skull some troops are. You may not be one of them ... but I can only imagine how many would come out of the woodwork that I've yet to meet should their cadpat get delivered to their door - there's a whole bunch of them who really would take that as a signal to chuck out all their other stuff. Sure, we could track them down looking for it, but if they've already tossed it, donated it (yep - we've had them do that too  :) or given it away -- it's a little too late to be tracking them down - the stuff is already gone out where it shouldn't be.



I take it, you now have a three foot high stack of Loss/Damage Reports on your desk ready to hand out to these numties so that they can go back to their Chain of Command and fill them out.  Always interesting when that document hits the CO's desk and the statement of the individual states that (s)he threw the item in the garbage or traded it for MARPAT or something else.


----------



## McG (19 Oct 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> As for the Army tracking you down - you wouldn't believe the numbers of troops now who come in to ask for new issues of cadpat and when asked where their stuff to exchange is say "I threw it in the garbage" ...


I wonder how much of that actually was thrown into the trash ....

http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/16339.0.html


----------



## armyvern (19 Oct 2008)

MCG said:
			
		

> I wonder how much of that actually was thrown into the trash ....
> 
> http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/16339.0.html



Of that - we agree.

It's their official paperwork though, and they sign their name to it ... and belive you me - it's not been pretty the couple times I've nailed those who choose to lie on it and get caught.


----------



## armyvern (19 Oct 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I take it, you now have a three foot high stack of Loss/Damage Reports on your desk ready to hand out to these numties so that they can go back to their Chain of Command and fill them out.  Always interesting when that document hits the CO's desk and the statement of the individual states that (s)he threw the item in the garbage or traded it for MARPAT or something else.



We probably do 50 MLRs a week here already without adding "home delivered & then _old-stuff-tossed _ cadpat into the mix with them; I have a staff dedicated to them (just actioning MLRs) fulltime.


----------



## OldSolduer (19 Oct 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> We probably do 50 MLRs a week here already without adding "home delivered & then _old-stuff-tossed _ cadpat into the mix with them; I have a staff dedicated to them (just actioning MLRs) fulltime.


We had a troop try to exchange a pair of MkIIIs with the holes punched in the tongue. The clothing stores Sgt gave us his name and we "counselled" him......and informed the other troops that this kind of sh!t is not on.


----------



## daftandbarmy (2 Nov 2008)

The sleeping bag/system.

Probably the best issued system in any army's inventory when first issued. Still not bad in comparison with other options out there, especially for ECW use. I mean, the Norwegian army used to use Kapok filled bags (very brrrrr) when we had down and feather awesomeness, no kidding.


----------



## daftandbarmy (12 Dec 2008)

Dropzone synthetic sleeping bags on issue for we taller fellows. Awesome. 

Thank you, thank you, thank you Canada! (Where's that storman?.. c'mon over here little guy and let me give you a big hug)


----------



## Canadian Mind (8 Jun 2009)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> The sleeping bag/system.
> 
> Probably the best issued system in any army's inventory when first issued. Still not bad in comparison with other options out there, especially for ECW use. I mean, the Norwegian army used to use Kapok filled bags (very brrrrr) when we had down and feather awesomeness, no kidding.



I'll vouch for that. Issued sleeping bags are the cats ass if taken care of properly.

Big fan of the smallpack, though I wish it came with Molle webbing vs. Daisy Chain.

And as a Coyote Gib/Driver, I actually don't mind the boots, though some days I wish I had a set of steel toes for working in the hangar.


----------



## daftandbarmy (15 Jun 2009)

Class 'C' stores. What other army in the world gives away so much useful stuff?


----------



## Yrys (15 Jun 2009)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> What other army in the world gives away so much useful stuff?



Speaking of which, anyone wants to answer this guy question about
6 pairs of boots ans shoes issues, asking if it's not to many ?

Equipement que l'on reçoit en joignant


----------



## daftandbarmy (3 Jun 2010)

Not trying to brag here, but I recently tried to summit Mt Rainier in Washington State (14,000ft - ish). The vertical from the parking lot is 8,000ft. Loads carried ran up to 60lbs. Conditions were arctic-like, with high winds, whiteouts and heavy snow ( which explains why we turned around at 13,000ft -ish on Day 3). I'd estimate that the temps were in the region of minus 20 with the windchill. All in all, a wonderful way to spend a Victoria Day LWE I would say! Attached photo is at 'high camp' at 11,500ft during one of the frequent blizzards. Nice.

Socks are important on a hike like this, for obvious reasons. I chose to go with the 'black and green' sock system, with a heavy Smart Wool sock over top for extra warmth. I didn't have a chance to take them off or change them for 3 days. I wore a pair of Scarpa Inverno plastic double boots. Nice boots for this kind of stuff by the way.

The results? Excellent. No blisters. No cold. No smell. No prisoners. Well done CTS!


----------



## PMedMoe (3 Jun 2010)

Wow!  Good for you!  Although, why anyone does that for "fun" is beyond me.....


----------



## Bzzliteyr (4 Jun 2010)

Recently? As in when?  I think I have a buddy that hit that not too long ago or could it be Mt Shasta?  Same area, right?


----------



## daftandbarmy (4 Jun 2010)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Recently? As in when?  I think I have a buddy that hit that not too long ago or could it be Mt Shasta?  Same area, right?



May 24-27th. Shasta's in California, but is one of the Cascade volcanoes so is on my hit list too. "Visit the Cascade Volcanoes before they visit you"!


----------



## PMedMoe (4 Jun 2010)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> May 24-27th. Shasta's in California, but is one of the Cascade volcanoes so is on my hit list too. "Visit the Cascade Volcanoes before they visit you"!



Too late.  We got covered by ash from Mount St. Helens in Chatham, NB in 1980.


----------



## daftandbarmy (4 Jun 2010)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Too late.  We got covered by ash from Mount St. Helens in Chatham, NB in 1980.



And when I was at 13,000ft (briefly) I smelled the sulphur from the active vents up there through the blizzrd thinkihng at the time, of course, that the guy ahead of me on the rope had let a good SBD fly!


----------



## Danjanou (4 Jun 2010)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Too late.  We got covered by ash from Mount St. Helens in Chatham, NB in 1980.




[thread derail] Hey Moe some of us were a lot closer to it when Mount St. Helens blew in 1980  8) [/thread derail]


----------



## PMedMoe (4 Jun 2010)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> [thread derail] Hey Moe some of us were a lot closer to it when Mount St. Helens blew in 1980  8) [/thread derail]



And some of us were still in junior high.


----------



## Journeyman (4 Jun 2010)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> And some of us were still in junior high.


There she goes, bragging about her education again  : 

[...continued derail]


----------



## daftandbarmy (4 Jun 2010)

While we're on the subject of underwear (near and dear to my heart and other parts), I've just been down to stores and got issued a set of the latest thermal undies and shorts. The material seems a great improvement over the first set I was issued a ferw years ago - so silky smooth against my rough skin.  

Have they improved this stuff on purpose or was it some kind of accident?


----------



## observor 69 (4 Jun 2010)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> And some of us were still in junior high.



And some of us were working on the 416 Sqn flightline.


----------



## Loachman (4 Jun 2010)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> While we're on the subject of underwear (near and dear to my heart and other parts), I've just been down to stores and got issued a set of the latest thermal undies and shorts. The material seems a great improvement over the first set I was issued a ferw years ago - so silky smooth against my rough skin.
> 
> Have they improved this stuff on purpose or was it some kind of accident?



It's all highly flammable synthetic. You may not consider it such an improvement if you get too close to a fire.

Products like http://www.drifire.com/ are far superior, although a little pricey.


----------



## Ecco (4 Jun 2010)

Underwear should be worn under another layer of clothing, by definition.  As such, for land forces requirements at least, they do not need to be flame retardant.  No-drip, no-melt yes, but flame "retardancy" is a non-issue.  The outer layer absorbs flame and only transfer limited heat underneath, which is no problem for synthetic materials. If synthetic underwear is worn correctly (under something else) and "flame", then you have much greater problems already (burnt lungs, amongst other things).  This knowledge is not a guess, but comes from trial burns of all our uniforms, made in canadian university.  

Carry on and stop worrying.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (4 Jun 2010)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> And some of us were still in junior high.





			
				Journeyman said:
			
		

> There she goes, bragging about her education again  :
> 
> [...continued derail]



Hey, best 8 years of her life.


----------



## Old Sweat (4 Jun 2010)

Does that include the repeated years?


----------



## Loachman (4 Jun 2010)

Ecco said:
			
		

> Underwear should be worn under another layer of clothing, by definition.  As such, for land forces requirements at least, they do not need to be flame retardant.  No-drip, no-melt yes, but flame "retardancy" is a non-issue.  The outer layer absorbs flame and only transfer limited heat underneath, which is no problem for synthetic materials. If synthetic underwear is worn correctly (under something else) and "flame", then you have much greater problems already (burnt lungs, amongst other things).  This knowledge is not a guess, but comes from trial burns of all our uniforms, made in canadian university.
> 
> Carry on and stop worrying.



I wouldn't count on any of that in the real world. I'm not worrying, but I take reasonable precautions with my pretty pink skin.

Drifire is a form of insurance that will benefit me directly, rather than my survivors.


----------



## Ecco (5 Jun 2010)

CASPEAN is a DRDC project, that stands for CASualty Protective Equipment ANalysis.  There a complete chain of people whose job is to document damages to protective equipment, injuries or fatalities in theater, in order to provide critical analysis on actual performance.  The chain involves the Tech LO, bio science officers, medical pers, the different CQs, DRDC Toronto and DRDC Valcartier, the relevant survivability desks at DSSPM and DAVPM.  The results are continually reviewed by VERY senior people.

I understand that drifire does nice marketing, but CF PPE design and requirements are based on actual reality, backed by a very relevant dataset.  We have actual data on fire exposure and results, not just opinions.


----------



## daftandbarmy (5 Jun 2010)

Ecco said:
			
		

> CASPEAN is a DRDC project, that stands for CASualty Protective Equipment ANalysis.  There a complete chain of people whose job is to document damages to protective equipment, injuries or fatalities in theater, in order to provide critical analysis on actual performance.  The chain involves the Tech LO, bio science officers, medical pers, the different CQs, DRDC Toronto and DRDC Valcartier, the relevant survivability desks at DSSPM and DAVPM.  The results are continually reviewed by VERY senior people.
> 
> I understand that drifire does nice marketing, but CF PPE design and requirements are based on actual reality, backed by a very relevant dataset.  We have actual data on fire exposure and results, not just opinions.



Interesting. How do our thermal undies do in comparison to civvie products like Drifire?


----------



## George Wallace (5 Jun 2010)

Ecco said:
			
		

> Underwear should be worn under another layer of clothing, by definition.  As such, for land forces requirements at least, they do not need to be flame retardant.  No-drip, no-melt yes, but flame "retardancy" is a non-issue.  The outer layer absorbs flame and only transfer limited heat underneath, which is no problem for synthetic materials. If synthetic underwear is worn correctly (under something else) and "flame", then you have much greater problems already (burnt lungs, amongst other things).  This knowledge is not a guess, but comes from trial burns of all our uniforms, made in canadian university.
> 
> Carry on and stop worrying.



I disagree with your statement about underwear being worn under another layer of clothing and as a result not required to be flame retardant.  Once your outer layers of clothing are gone, due to flame and heat, your underwear will soon follow.  I doubt any medical practitioner likes the job of surgically removing molten synthetics from a burn.


----------



## Loachman (5 Jun 2010)

One told me that it peels off rather nicely. I just don't want anybody peeling burnt plastic off of me.

I don't care what anybody says, I'm _*not*_ wearing polyester next to skin.

I've seen enough documentation of people with vicious burns, and I've read enough flight safety reports (ours and others), and I'll pay a few dollars not to end up like them.

If it's not FR, 100% cotton, or leather, it's not going around _*my*_ nads.


----------



## BurnDoctor (5 Jun 2010)

I'll respectfully weigh in on the thermal underwear turn that this thread has taken. Not a soldier, no real world experience in that realm. Newly sworn in to CF (HSvcs PRL), no training under my belt, nada. That is all yet to come. But...my day job is Burn Surgeon.

In a civilian setting, most (but not all) burn patients who survive to come to hospital have had the burning process stopped in time that the underwear-covered areas are generally spared in a distribution that clearly correlates to the waistband and thigh bands - thus making it available as a potential source of skin graft harvest.  This would support the theory raised by another poster about heat energy being dissipated via the outer layers of clothing.

I would tend to agree that in a situation where the thermal source was proximate or intense enough to melt the underwear to the patient (burning LAV/tracked vehicle/aircraft/ship/other enclosed space), there are bigger issues, e.g. death at scene, death prior to evacuation, impending death during evacuation or early resuscitation period; from shock/massive burn/inhalation injury.

My $0.02


----------



## ballz (5 Jun 2010)

Well if BurnDoctor is a burn surgeon and he's right, then he's right

But I have to ask if you don't mind, when it comes to something as simple as the material used for t-shirts, underwear, etc, where impeding mobility is not a factor, can it really do any harm to have a layer of DriFire between yourself and everything that's on fire, as opposed to polyester/cotton? I lean on Loachman's side of an extra ounce of prevention when it comes to my nads...

This video really catches my attention.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HirHetcleIE

I have 3 DriFire t-shirts because I was looking for something moisture-wicking like UnderArmour to wear under my combats, but seeing them held against a blow-torch and kind of win that battle makes me even happier I bought them.


----------



## daftandbarmy (5 Jun 2010)

Loachman said:
			
		

> One told me that it peels off rather nicely. I just don't want anybody peeling burnt plastic off of me.
> 
> I don't care what anybody says, I'm _*not*_ wearing polyester next to skin.
> 
> ...



Amen to that, as Simon Weston will tell you. Many of the severley burned Welsh Guardsman on the Sir Galahad (Falklands War, 1982) were wearing helly hansen polypro underwear and plastic rain gear, which added to their miseries. Several were also wearing 'jungle lightweights' or synthetic denims, which had a plastic fly, so you can guess what happened to their 'nads' when the inferno engulfed them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Weston


----------



## BurnDoctor (5 Jun 2010)

Agree 100% with ballz' coments in post #212.


----------



## Matt_Fisher (8 Jun 2010)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Amen to that, as Simon Weston will tell you. Many of the severley burned Welsh Guardsman on the Sir Galahad (Falklands War, 1982) were wearing helly hansen polypro underwear and plastic rain gear, which added to their miseries. Several were also wearing 'jungle lightweights' or synthetic denims, which had a plastic fly, so you can guess what happened to their 'nads' when the inferno engulfed them:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Weston



Bear in mind that polypropylene is a textile form of paraffin, which is inherently flammable.  What I find ironic is that the CFs have developed their hybrid combat shirt using a super-duper Kermel/Viscose blend FR fabric for the sleeves and shoulders, yet are still issuing a regular nylon/cotton blend combat cloth trousers.

If the data suggests that enough burn injuries were taking place on the battlefield to warrant the hybrid shirt being made entirely fire retardant, then why aren't there an accompanying pair of FR combat trousers?
-does the data suggest that the upper torso is the main recipient of burn injuries, thus negating the value of FR outer garments on the botton half of the body?
-The Brits haven't bought into the FR clothing ensembles to the same extent that the Americans have.  Their UBACS shirt is a polyester based fabric in the torso area, chosen primarily for moisture management properties.  What do British vs. US vs. Canadian casualty statstics say about the prevalance of burn injuries in Iraq and Afghanistan?


----------



## stealthylizard (9 Jun 2010)

Trying to recall the area proportions for figuring out the percentage of body burned.  9% for each extremity, chest was 18%, and groin is 1%.  Saving the upper body from serious burns is more "important" than your lower half.


----------



## daftandbarmy (10 Jun 2010)

stealthylizard said:
			
		

> Trying to recall the area proportions for figuring out the percentage of body burned.  9% for each extremity, chest was 18%, and groin is 1%.  Saving the upper body from serious burns is more "important" than your lower half.



That only applies to single guys  ;D


----------



## Matt_Fisher (10 Jun 2010)

stealthylizard said:
			
		

> Trying to recall the area proportions for figuring out the percentage of body burned.  9% for each extremity, chest was 18%, and groin is 1%.  Saving the upper body from serious burns is more "important" than your lower half.



Sources you can reference?


----------



## Journeyman (10 Jun 2010)

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> Sources you can reference?


Rule of Nines, seen here


----------



## dapaterson (10 Jun 2010)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Rule of Nines, seen here



This is the rule of Nine that I would prefer to assimilate.


----------



## daftandbarmy (11 Jun 2010)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> And when I was at 13,000ft (briefly) I smelled the sulphur from the active vents up there through the blizzrd thinkihng at the time, of course, that the guy ahead of me on the rope had let a good SBD fly!



And, of course, someone was killed by an avalanche on exactly the same part of the mountain I was on. No wonder it's called 'Disapointment Cleaver'. I credit my lucky sock combination with my survival. Oh, and some good decisions by the guides... that too I guess 

Camp Muir climbers were warned 
AVALANCHE AT RAINIER: Weather delays search for missing Olympia man

http://www.thenewstribune.com/2010/06/08/1217630/camp-muir-climbers-were-warned.html

This is the avalanche slide path on a portion of the Ingraham Glacier called Ingraham Direct where 11 climbers were caught. One is presumed dead. 

The other soloist in the group, is a skier. His video is here:

http://www.king5.com/news/local/Avalanche-Survivor-Shares-Home-Video-of-Aftermath-95750639.html


----------



## daftandbarmy (13 Jun 2010)

Back on topic: just got issued the Goretex rain gear. Awesome.


----------



## TN2IC (13 Jun 2010)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Back on topic: just got issued the Goretex rain gear. Awesome.



Just got mine few months ago... best thing ever. Now if it ever rains...  ;D


----------



## Eye In The Sky (13 Jun 2010)

The new CCR is a decent piece of kit.  What I find the worst about it is wearing it and people asking me "how I got the new Army raingear"...which leads into the "its the new CCR that all green and blue types are getting..." ramble...only to have them say "ya but thats the army stuff though".

 :brickwall:


----------



## Recon 3690 (2 Jul 2010)

M2 50 cal & lots of ammo and of course a track to mount it on


----------



## OldSolduer (3 Jul 2010)

Recon 3690 said:
			
		

> M2 50 cal & lots of ammo and of course a track to mount it on



I prefer the tripod with the T & E mechanism.  Agree with the loads of ammo! :nod:


----------



## daftandbarmy (12 Dec 2011)

OK, I've given the new ruck a bit of a cabby and I have to say it seems OK. 

It certainly seems a little _too _ big, and I'm a 'big bergen' fan from way back, but overall I thought it was OK especially after I removed the support rods from the sleeves. 

I'd give it a solid 7/10.


----------



## Jarnhamar (12 Dec 2011)

How does removing the support rods affect the rucksack and how it feels on your back?


----------



## daftandbarmy (12 Dec 2011)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> How does removing the support rods affect the rucksack and how it feels on your back?



I tried it with the rods in, and it was absurdly rigid to the point where I couldn't walk normally (well, as normally as I ever do that is). I took the rods out and it felt like your average internal frame pack. 

Glass half full? They make excellent pointers for your orders session or, in a pinch, a decent camel whip.


----------



## Veiledal (13 Dec 2011)

Personally I found the rods way to damaging to my shoulders, so I took them out as well.


----------



## lethalLemon (13 Dec 2011)

C1 Protractor - not only did I get my hands on one of those bad boys, but I know how to use one too! (or at least I hope I can remember how to use one, it's been a couple years). Sure, I was only a cadet but still... I cherished those things.

The waffle-knit field scarf, what a wonderful thing. Not only did it keep you toasty warm when it's kilometres of fabric were wrapped around you, but it could quickly be deployed into a field pillow and etc.

Bivy bag is awesome, I've used it more times at home than I ever did in the field thanks to superior built te.... Actually, our tents sucked and I refused to sleep under anything that wasn't a hoochie tarp or in my bivy bag (the only thing's you could truly rely on to keep you dry and some what warm and sheltered).

cup, canteen handed down to me from my father was a life saver on many a frigid exercise up at Camp Howard, sipping on IMP coffee (not the best but it did the trick) or minestrone soup.

Coleman two burner stoves were great, but if I could marry an inanimate object it would be the collapsable single burner stove that fit neatly into a "C9" pouch (oh no! a cadet with a C9 pouch!  : ). I would sit down and cook some Campbells soup or beef ravioli... mmm... yummy.


----------



## daftandbarmy (7 Jun 2018)

Another vote of confidence in the good old 2 burner Coleman stove....

I have one, but lost track of it for a couple of years. During a recent massive cleanup operation in my yard it turned up, half buried underneath some junk. I can only guess that my wife saw the rusty exterior and assumed, incorrectly, that it was a piece of garbage.

I decided to see if it still worked and - lo and behold - fired it up right then and there. It worked great despite being left to the elements outside for a couple of years.

I can only hope that I hold up that well in the future


----------



## Colin Parkinson (7 Jun 2018)

and parts still to be had for them as well, a wee bit of oil into the pump hole...


----------



## FJAG (7 Jun 2018)

1970's era AFV cold weather crew suit. Loved mine. Do they still issue them or anything like it?











The jacket worked great inside the track and the coveralls together with the winter parka kept you cozy in a snow bank OP for hours.

 :cheers:


----------



## Eye In The Sky (7 Jun 2018)

The RCAF Advanced Crew Ensemble 2 piece winter flying kit is very similar, with really nice zipper system on the pants to get them on/off quickly with boots on, bib overall just like the EICS (spelling) stuff the Army gets.

I loved my old AFV jacket too.  

I have a Coleman 2 burner stove too and love it.  strip it down every spring, clean it, paint it if it needs it.  The newer replacement plungers are rubber or something and 'throw away'.  I'd prefer to use the leather type in the cold but...can't find them.


----------



## OldSolduer (8 Jun 2018)

I’ll agree with D & B about the two burner Coleman. I like canteen cup with the little stove. It got me through 6B.


----------



## daftandbarmy (8 Jun 2018)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I have a Coleman 2 burner stove too and love it.  strip it down every spring, clean it, paint it if it needs it.  The newer replacement plungers are rubber or something and 'throw away'.  I'd prefer to use the leather type in the cold but...can't find them.



Amazon is your friend  

https://www.amazon.com/Coleman-Lantern-Stove-Leather-Washer/dp/B00CEMBTCK


----------



## Eye In The Sky (8 Jun 2018)

Thanks...the problem is, my stove came with the pump/plunger like this one...so, I just bought the replacement kit.  Seems like a waste when it was just the rubber plunger that was worn out.

http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/coleman-pump-repair-kit-0762336p.html


----------



## acen (9 Jun 2018)

EITS, you can purchase just the leather to retrofit the newer style plunger cap, http://www.canadiantire.ca/en//pdp/coleman-replacement-pump-cup-back-up-plate-0762335p.html or product number #076-2335-2 at Canadian Tire. I bring these sets out to the field with me to retrofit my section's stove and lantern because leather rarely if ever fails whereas the rubber dries out all the time, all you need is some pump cup oil and you have a reliable system down to the extreme cold. 

Funnily enough, MSR sells a cold weather pump which includes a leather pump cup. Sometime the old solutions are the best ones.


----------



## dimsum (9 Jun 2018)

Kind of related to this and the recall of the sleeping bags, but is the CADPAT "ranger blanket" part of the recall?  Those things are awesome.

Asking for a friend.


----------



## MJP (9 Jun 2018)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Kind of related to this and the recall of the sleeping bags, but is the CADPAT "ranger blanket" part of the recall?  Those things are awesome.
> 
> Asking for a friend.



No, the ranger blanket is not considered part of the sleep system.  The pieces subject to recall are:
Sleeping bag inner
Sleeping bag outer
Sleeping bag liner
Bivvy Bag
Dream Hood
Valise


----------



## ballz (9 Jun 2018)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Kind of related to this and the recall of the sleeping bags, but is the CADPAT "ranger blanket" part of the recall?  Those things are awesome.
> 
> Asking for a friend.



No but I've heard the ranger blanket had made into the "for deployments only" category now. Haven't been able to confirm it since I've had one for so long but I have no reason to doubt the source.


----------



## FJAG (9 Jun 2018)

ballz said:
			
		

> No but I've heard the ranger blanket had made into the "for deployments only" category now. Haven't been able to confirm it since I've had one for so long but I have no reason to doubt the source.



Sure. No one needs to sleep on exercise anyway.

 :cheers:


----------



## Jarnhamar (9 Jun 2018)

Weird I was told the new Ranger blanket was a replacement for the sleeping bag liner. We had to turn liners in to get them.

I notice the camel backs that the army cwo said would be issued out are still deployment only.


----------



## ballz (9 Jun 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Weird I was told the new Ranger blanket was a replacement for the sleeping bag liner. We had to turn liners in to get them.
> 
> I notice the camel backs that the army cwo said would be issued out are still deployment only.



It would be interesting to hear from one of our many members working in the supply world as I don't want to spin the rumour mill more than I already have.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (9 Jun 2018)

I didn't hear about the CANFORGEN from my unit, I actually read it on here.  I would have thought this recall would be more timely/effective if the Unit's sent out direction.  I also didn't get any emails that were Wing-Wide etc from the Wing Supply O, etc.

I'm also a fan of the ranger blanket.  Great for long transit!


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## dangerboy (9 Jun 2018)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I didn't hear about the CANFORGEN from my unit, I actually read it on here.  I would have thought this recall would be more timely/effective if the Unit's sent out direction.  I also didn't get any emails that were Wing-Wide etc from the Wing Supply O, etc.



In fairness the CANFORGEN does state " Support bases are to issue specific direction to facilitate the recall", I would think that they did not know the order was being issued and right now are coming up with a plan to recall the items in an orderly fashion.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (9 Jun 2018)

copy.  So. drop it off at the next opportune time or wait for direction from Wg Supply?


----------



## Kat Stevens (9 Jun 2018)

What an absolute shit show, I’d weep if it wasn’t so absurdly funny. Thank fox I’m 15 years out of this soup sammich.


----------



## garb811 (9 Jun 2018)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> copy.  So. drop it off at the next opportune time or wait for direction from Wg Supply?


MP at one of the Wings received an email that went Wing wide from Wing Supply stating they were to wait for further direction as this was a surprise to the RCAF writ large as apparently the Army made a unilateral call without consulting and that Wing had concerns WRT people who deploy to the FOL and sleep on cots and in sleeping bags.

Just because you aren't in one of the listed units doesn't mean you don't have a legitimate requirement for the kit that the army doesn't have awareness of so I'd expect there are some conversations being had.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (9 Jun 2018)

Makes sense to me, I was wondering about the whole Comd CA saying "give er back!" but assumed the Comd RCN, RCAF etc would have said no prob.  Some people are on (Deployment) High Ready and those items are part of the deployment kit list.  I'll stand by to stand by.


----------



## MJP (9 Jun 2018)

garb811 said:
			
		

> MP at one of the Wings received an email that went Wing wide from Wing Supply stating they were to wait for further direction as this was a surprise to the RCAF writ large as apparently the Army made a unilateral call without consulting and that Wing had concerns WRT people who deploy to the FOL and sleep on cots and in sleeping bags.
> 
> Just because you aren't in one of the listed units doesn't mean you don't have a legitimate requirement for the kit that the army doesn't have awareness of so I'd expect there are some conversations being had.



Not privy to the whole convo but at least on the 4 side of the house the RCN, RCAF and the institutional were tracking the return and had been consulted.  Of course that is staff talking to staff even when it is high level and often issues don't get brfed well (or at all) and things get lost in the shuffle.  Not surprised that there are issues across the board.


----------



## TCM621 (10 Jun 2018)

It's funny, I tried to return mine when I transferred to the AF and they said I was missing a pouch I was never issued. They didn't want it unless it had the pouch and I was never given a pouch so we were at an empass. Bottom line it's in my basement somewhere. I dig it out and see if they will take it sans pouch now.

Also, I waited a dozen years for that ruck from the announcement to the actual issue. 6 years later they have run out. WTF Over?


----------



## Jarnhamar (10 Jun 2018)

I would pay the CAF $200 to be allowed to use my own ruck on ex and deployment instead of that 20 pound monstrosity.


----------



## daftandbarmy (11 Jun 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I would pay the CAF $200 to be allowed to use my own ruck on ex and deployment instead of that 20 pound monstrosity.




Most high altitude climbers will carry about that, in food, clothing, equipment and water, on summit day.


----------



## Jarnhamar (11 Jun 2018)

This bag is better quality, has a better sizing system with a modular frame to encompass different bags.
It also has a removable support and ventilation system designed to be worn with body armor and plates

Whole thing pictured weights 8.8lbs.







Whats the price tag on our new rucksack?


----------



## Remius (11 Jun 2018)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Makes sense to me, I was wondering about the whole Comd CA saying "give er back!" but assumed the Comd RCN, RCAF etc would have said no prob.  Some people are on (Deployment) High Ready and those items are part of the deployment kit list.  I'll stand by to stand by.



This is from the CANFORGEN on who gets to keep their rucks.  But I would assume there will be exceptions.  We have Class B types parading but not on the unit establishment for example. The NCR has recently sent out times and dates as well as mobile drop off points.  Plenty of people in Ottawa don't need rucksacks or sleeping bags. 

MEMBERS FROM THE FOLLOWING UNITS OR FORMATIONS ARE AUTHORIZED TO RETAIN THE MATERIEL IN PARA 3 ON THEIR INDIVIDUAL ACCOUNTS IAW THE QUANTITIES SPECIFIED ON APPLICABLE SCALES OF ISSUE: 
CA: ALL DIV HQ(S), CMBG(S), CBG(S), CRPG(S), CDSG(S), DIV TRG CENTERS, INT COY(S), RCEMES, CSSB, CTC, CMTC, AND PSTC 
RCAF: 1 WING: 403, 408, 430 AND 450 SQN. 2 WING: 2 WING HQ, 2 ACCU, 2 AES, 8 ACCS, 4 CES, 2 ERC AND AEW. 17 WING: 440 SQN 
RCN: FDU(A), FDU(P) 
CFINTCOM: JTF(X), CFNCIU(S), JMC, CFJIC, AND MCE 
CJOC: CJOC HQ, ALL CFJOSG UNITS, 1 CDN DIV, JTF(N) HQ AND ASU(N) 
SOFCOM: ALL UNITS AND HQ 
MPC: 

(1)CFHS GP: 

(A)CF H SVCS GP HQ, CFHSTC FD INSTR CADRE, REG F FD UNITS AND DETS: 1, 2, AND 5 FD AMB, 1 CDN FD HOSP, P RES FD AMBS AND DETS 

(B)ALL CDR/LCOL,LCDR/MAJ AND LT(N)/CAPT OF MED(00196-04),ALL RANKS OFA(00374-01),MED TECH(00334-01),BE TECH (00155-01),MLAB TECH (00152-01),MRAD TECH (00153-01),PMED TECH (00371-02),OR TECH (00372- 01),AND NUR (00195) 

(2)CFLRS, CFLTC, CMR ST JEAN, AND RMC 
ALL CA STUDENTS (BTL) UNTIL AFTER DP1 QUALIFIED OR MBRS LOADED ON COURSES/TASKING FOR THE DURATION OF TRG 
VCDS: ARMY MP GP HQ: 1, 2, 3, AND 5 MP REGT. CADET ORGANIZATIONS WILL RETAIN THE KIT UNTIL AN APPROPRIATE REPLACEMENT IS PROVIDED. ALL CADET INSTRUCTORS CADRE AND HQ STAFF WILL RETURN THE ITEMS IN PARA 3 
THERE WILL BE NO CHANGE TO THE ENTITLEMENTS FOR MEMBERS ON OPERATION OR OUTCAN. CFTPO TO STATE IF A MBR REQUIRES A TEMPORARY ISSUE OF KIT FOR AN EXERCISE OR A SHORT NTM TASK (EXAMPLE DART)


----------



## CountDC (11 Jun 2018)

Seems to be well covered and don't see them coming up with that list without consulting all the players.

I will be happy to return my kit after having it for 6 years and using it 3 times on a weekend.  Foolishness to have everyone in the CF issued it.  In fact one of the times I used my kit was simply because the army reserves could not grasp the concept that a navy member that is in a non-deploy position and only required to do a level one qualify on the C7 could do that in our own naval combat dress. Nope, must wear army combats with all the bells and whistles.


----------



## daftandbarmy (11 Jun 2018)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Seems to be well covered and don't see them coming up with that list without consulting all the players.
> 
> I will be happy to return my kit after having it for 6 years and using it 3 times on a weekend.  Foolishness to have everyone in the CF issued it.  In fact one of the times I used my kit was simply because the army reserves could not grasp the concept that a navy member that is in a non-deploy position and only required to do a level one qualify on the C7 could do that in our own naval combat dress. Nope, must wear army combats with all the bells and whistles.



They obviously never saw Steve McQueen in action then


----------



## dimsum (11 Jun 2018)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Nope, must wear army combats with all the bells and whistles.



Harrumph.  You are probably in one of those "normal" sizes that they seem to run out of stock in, too!


----------



## Halifax Tar (12 Jun 2018)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Seems to be well covered and don't see them coming up with that list without consulting all the players.
> 
> I will be happy to return my kit after having it for 6 years and using it 3 times on a weekend.  Foolishness to have everyone in the CF issued it.  In fact one of the times I used my kit was simply because the army reserves could not grasp the concept that a navy member that is in a non-deploy position and only required to do a level one qualify on the C7 could do that in our own naval combat dress. Nope, must wear army combats with all the bells and whistles.



Last year when I went to the Bedford ranges we RCN folks had the option of NCDs or CADPAT if the member had them.  No helmets or webbing.  Just eye pro and ear pro.


----------



## PuckChaser (12 Jun 2018)

It's sad that we've so easily accepted the CAF being unable to supply and life cycle manage less than 100,000 rucksacks, boots and sleeping bags as being "efficient with resources". It's down right shameful for a 1st world military to think and act this way, but we all know that no project manager/GOFO/public servant/MND will lose their jobs over it.


----------



## SupersonicMax (12 Jun 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> This is from the CANFORGEN on who gets to keep their rucks.  But I would assume there will be exceptions.  We have Class B types parading but not on the unit establishment for example. The NCR has recently sent out times and dates as well as mobile drop off points.  Plenty of people in Ottawa don't need rucksacks or sleeping bags.
> 
> MEMBERS FROM THE FOLLOWING UNITS OR FORMATIONS ARE AUTHORIZED TO RETAIN THE MATERIEL IN PARA 3 ON THEIR INDIVIDUAL ACCOUNTS IAW THE QUANTITIES SPECIFIED ON APPLICABLE SCALES OF ISSUE:
> CA: ALL DIV HQ(S), CMBG(S), CBG(S), CRPG(S), CDSG(S), DIV TRG CENTERS, INT COY(S), RCEMES, CSSB, CTC, CMTC, AND PSTC
> ...



Word on the street is that the RCAF wasn't consulted...  we were told to keep them...  but I'll probably just return them... I have only used them during survival training (5 times in 13 years)


----------



## dapaterson (12 Jun 2018)

I am reasonably certain that all DND/CAF Level 1 organizations were consulted.  Whether the staff in the HQs checked with their subordinate formations before sending their returns is a valid question.


----------



## dimsum (13 Jun 2018)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Word on the street is that the RCAF wasn't consulted...  we were told to keep them...  but I'll probably just return them... I have only used them during survival training (5 times in 13 years)



I guess each Wing is different?  We were told to hand them back ASAP.


----------



## daftandbarmy (13 Jun 2018)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I am reasonably certain that all DND/CAF Level 1 organizations were consulted.  Whether the staff in the HQs checked with their subordinate formations before sending their returns is a valid question.



One of my NCOs used to be the storeman out at Albert Head. He's pretty sure that the hundreds of sleeping bags and rucks that he managed during his tenure are still being held in stores out there.

How many similar 'little piles of joy' are there across Canada, unknown to those on high, I wonder?


----------



## dapaterson (13 Jun 2018)

If he did his job right, those holdings are visible.


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## Halifax Tar (13 Jun 2018)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> One of my NCOs used to be the storeman out at Albert Head. He's pretty sure that the hundreds of sleeping bags and rucks that he managed during his tenure are still being held in stores out there.
> 
> How many similar 'little piles of joy' are there across Canada, unknown to those on high, I wonder?



None in Halifax and almost none in NS.  Shearwater, DKYRD and the Armouries are all at zero stock levels.  We had to draw off Greenwood to send our divers up north. 



			
				PuckChaser said:
			
		

> It's sad that we've so easily accepted the CAF being unable to supply and life cycle manage less than 100,000 rucksacks, boots and sleeping bags as being "efficient with resources". It's down right shameful for a 1st world military to think and act this way, but we all know that no project manager/GOFO/public servant/MND will lose their jobs over it.



That's not 100% true PC.  I would bet that there are a ton of people in the CAF who have Rucks and sleeping bag sys complete that aren't entitled to them.  We have an unfounded belief that the Canadian Forces Supply System is a constant failure, when in reality its not.  Its actually a very good system that we, the whole of the CAF, abuse and circumvent and then blame said system for failure.  We have a problem in the CAF and its Kit hoarding.  And its not just limited to clothing, its also spare parts.


----------



## PuckChaser (13 Jun 2018)

Was more a rant about lack of funding. With no money to buy enough items and keep them stocked, CFSS is forced to constantly make items deployment only or change entitlements to do the best job possible. When you underfund projects and aren't allowed to buy replacements for broken kit, we get this problem.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (13 Jun 2018)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> None in Halifax and almost none in NS.  Shearwater, DKYRD and the Armouries are all at zero stock levels.  We had to draw off Greenwood to send our divers up north.
> 
> That's not 100% true PC.  I would bet that there are a ton of people in the CAF who have Rucks and sleeping bag sys complete that aren't entitled to them.  We have an unfounded belief that the Canadian Forces Supply System is a constant failure, when in reality its not.  Its actually a very good system that we, the whole of the CAF, abuse and circumvent and then blame said system for failure.  We have a problem in the CAF and its Kit hoarding.  And its not just limited to clothing, its also spare parts.



This is wrong, we are not well supplied!  We aren't talking about tanks or planes here, we are talking about basic equipment a soldier needs to function in the field.  A rucksack should be issued to every member of the Army and Air Force on joining the Forces, it certainly shouldn't be a controlled item, it's a large hiking bag for god sakes.  

It's especially bad when you consider that we are supposed to be a professional force with an expeditionary mindset.  We can't even get uniforms or boots right.  The real problem is we don't maintain a national stockpile of war stock any more.  I'm of the opinion that the CAF should, at a minimum, maintain 3x the amount of kit as personnel in its Active Force.  Shortages should be dealt with by drawing from the National Stockpile and the National Stockpile should be periodically topped up.  

Taking this a step further, I believe Reserve units should maintain a stockpile of basic equipment - uniforms, weapons, equipment, etc. To be able to rapidly outfit a Battalion.  Considering the Reserves are supposed to be  a mobilization force, this would make sense.


----------



## SupersonicMax (13 Jun 2018)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> We have an unfounded belief that the Canadian Forces Supply System is a constant failure, when in reality its not.  Its actually a very good system that we, the whole of the CAF, abuse and circumvent and then blame said system for failure.  We have a problem in the CAF and its Kit hoarding.  And its not just limited to clothing, its also spare parts.



When your HPR standard timeline is 5 days, yes your system is broken. That's why people hoard parts.  FedEx/Purolator/Canada Post can deliver it the next day.  An aircraft goes down on Monday?  You won't see it back online until at least Tuesday the next week (that's if the right part comes in and it is serviceable)

 When you have to use NSN for ordering aircraft parts (which some parts have the same NSN - for example a same part for different side of the aircraft), your system is broken and that's why people order 4 of the same part hoping to get one that is the correct one.


----------



## MJP (13 Jun 2018)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> When your HPR standard timeline is 5 days, yes your system is broken. That's why people hoard parts.  FedEx/Purolator/Canada Post can deliver it the next day.  An aircraft goes down on Monday?  You won't see it back online until at least Tuesday the next week (that's if the right part comes in and it is serviceable)
> 
> When you have to use NSN for ordering aircraft parts (which some parts have the same NSN - for example a same part for different side of the aircraft), your system is broken and that's why people order 4 of the same part hoping to get one that is the correct one.



The spare parts system flaws are much deeper than just material priority codes, required delivery dates and identification of parts.  There is a fundamental lack of understanding of how to properly scale and manage parts that flows down from ADMMAT all the way down to the units both in a practical sense and in our wonderful system of record DRMIS (Defence Resource Management Information System).  

SAP/DRMIS is a powerful tool that we haven't used properly cause quite frankly there are very few people that understand how to use it to its full potential (myself included).  We put decent people in positions who get the ball a bit further ahead but then we post them out and their work collapses because the next guy has a grander or different plan.  One of the very smart people in the CA has PowerPoint that highlights our mismanagement of parts in DRMIS by showing the ordering history of one small part worth less than a dollar.  It shows a number of separate orders for this part in a short time span from a single unit that went all to the depots (so 3rd line support) and back down to the units.  These washers come from the manufacturer in packs of ten but every time the unit ordered one, the package would be broken at the depot level and one part extracted and sent all the way down to the unit.  The issue is simple to fix if:

LCMM/TA put in a batch # (that way you could only order 10 at time)
That the unit's 2nd line support repair parts section had the parts in stock with max/mins set (max and mins being the most you should hold and the re-order point)
The unit themselves had scaling with max and mins set

Those are just the simple from the ground floor things that are wrong, there are a number of issues with how we acquire and control stock at our highest levels (as evident by the CANFORGEN in question).

Overall I don't blame the units in particular cause they are the last stop in the grotesque chain which has led to many of them employing practices that contribute to breaking the system.  Recently,  Canadian Material Support Group has recognized that they have flaws in their management of material and its delivery and they have thrown money at the problem in the interim while they figure out a better way forward but there needs to be a holistic look at the issues and the fixes need to be at every level.


----------



## MJP (13 Jun 2018)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> When your HPR standard timeline is 5 days, yes your system is broken. That's why people hoard parts.  FedEx/Purolator/Canada Post can deliver it the next day.  An aircraft goes down on Monday?  You won't see it back online until at least Tuesday the next week (that's if the right part comes in and it is serviceable)
> 
> When you have to use NSN for ordering aircraft parts (which some parts have the same NSN - for example a same part for different side of the aircraft), your system is broken and that's why people order 4 of the same part hoping to get one that is the correct one.



Your post also reminded me that we have a very flawed way of looking at our broken vehicles and triaging them at least in the CA.  So every unit brfs on their Vehicle Off-Road (VOR) as a percentage of  how many vehs are broken.  The common thought is high VOR is bad and when it reaches a certain point we should be throwing the kitchen sink at the problem until it is low.  We also use a veh priority repair list which drives what vehs are priority over other vehs when it comes to triaging repairs.  Talking to a very smart dude it is a bit ass backwards, we really should be looking at what are your current tasks and what do you need to do them?  If you are Immediate Reaction Unit West and you need 10 MSVS trucks for example as long as you have 10 that can roll you are GTG.  If you breach that threshold, that is your repair priority not the 30 other broken vehs that can't help you accomplish your assigned task.  Sounds pretty common sense but for some reason we fixate on VOR% rather than capability.

We actually just had this methodology applied in an operational theater with a fairly diverse fleet and once people grasped the concept it worked out great.  It also worked because it was command driven, made sense and we could focus on fixing what mattered as it was linked to actual tasks/capbility, not what was arbitrarily picked as a priority.

Sorry, I have completely hijacked the thread


----------



## Halifax Tar (13 Jun 2018)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> This is wrong, we are not well supplied!  We aren't talking about tanks or planes here, we are talking about basic equipment a soldier needs to function in the field.  A rucksack should be issued to every member of the Army and Air Force on joining the Forces, it certainly shouldn't be a controlled item, it's a large hiking bag for god sakes.


  

Rucks and sleeping aren't a controlled item.  They are accountable, but they aren't controlled.  And no not every member of the CA or RCAF needs a Field kit.  Lots of positions outside of line units and including some line units have no requirement for pers to have field kit.  Its called Field Kit SOI because it meant to equip those members who are expected to go to the field on a frequent enough basis to warrant an issue.  Your uniform or service (RCAF/RCN/CA ect) does not dictate your SOIs, your UIC and billet number do.  I can tell you for a fact that there are lots of RCN folks walking around with field kit that was issue for courses or tasking's that haven't been returned yet, this is what I mean as an example of kit hoarding.



			
				Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> It's especially bad when you consider that we are supposed to be a professional force with an expeditionary mindset.  We can't even get uniforms or boots right.  The real problem is we don't maintain a national stockpile of war stock any more.  I'm of the opinion that the CAF should, at a minimum, maintain 3x the amount of kit as personnel in its Active Force.  Shortages should be dealt with by drawing from the National Stockpile and the National Stockpile should be periodically topped up.


  

Procuring the right uniforms or boots isn't really what we are talking about here.  As for having more stock, ok.  No argument there.



			
				Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Taking this a step further, I believe Reserve units should maintain a stockpile of basic equipment - uniforms, weapons, equipment, etc. To be able to rapidly outfit a Battalion.  Considering the Reserves are supposed to be  a mobilization force, this would make sense.



In a perfect world, sure. 



			
				SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> When your HPR standard timeline is 5 days, yes your system is broken. That's why people hoard parts.  FedEx/Purolator/Canada Post can deliver it the next day.  An aircraft goes down on Monday?  You won't see it back online until at least Tuesday the next week (that's if the right part comes in and it is serviceable)



I have delivered lots of stuff in a day.  All units can arrange for alternate delivery methods, i.e.  FedEx/Purolator/Canada Post, hand carry, but your unit has to be willing to pay for it.  YOu have to remember we live in a big honking country.  If you are in Comox and need a part from Montreal, well that is going to take some time.  That's just the limits of the size of our country



			
				SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> When you have to use NSN for ordering aircraft parts (which some parts have the same NSN - for example a same part for different side of the aircraft), your system is broken and that's why people order 4 of the same part hoping to get one that is the correct one.



<caveat> I have no time with the RCAF <caveat> 

If you have parts that are different depending on the side of the aircraft they are on then they should have different NSNs.  Your tech have publications and programs that should tell them what NSNs to order, I have sent many a stoker back to his CFTOs and schematics to investigate the part they need.  Ordering four of the same part, because you cant identify what you actually need, when you actually need one is only compounding the problem WRT lack of spare parts.  

Its a huge issue on ships.  Engineers are awful for keeping "bench stock" of even NS parts.  When these should be returned to the repair lines to continue the parts life cycle and be available for issue to someone in need.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (13 Jun 2018)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Rucks and sleeping aren't a controlled item.  They are accountable, but they aren't controlled.  And no not every member of the CA or RCAF needs a Field kit.  Lots of positions outside of line units and including some line units have no requirement for pers to have field kit.  Its called Field Kit SOI because it meant to equip those members who are expected to go to the field on a frequent enough basis to warrant an issue.  Your uniform or service (RCAF/RCN/CA ect) does not dictate your SOIs, your UIC and billet number do.  I can tell you for a fact that there are lots of RCN folks walking around with field kit that was issue for courses or tasking's that haven't been returned yet, this is what I mean as an example of kit hoarding.



The problem with this is, they have no requirement..... until they have a requirement.  I've been pulled in to many taskings via CFTPO where all of sudden, I required kit that had sat in my basement for a few years.  A great example of this was when I deployed to the Arctic twice on short notice.  Thank god I had my initial issue Arctic Kit otherwise I would have been SOL because supply in Kingston had almost nothing.

I'm a big believer in soldier first, office/cubicle dweller second.  How do you inculcate that culture when you don't even provide the necessary equipment for your personnel to live properly in an austere condition that they may have to go to from time to time?  How do you promote a culture of high readiness when you don't even have equipment available for the force you do have?  



> Procuring the right uniforms or boots isn't really what we are talking about here.  As for having more stock, ok.  No argument there.
> 
> In a perfect world, sure.



It's actually exactly what we are talking about.  When I say 'controlled' I'm obviously not talking about 'controlled goods' and I thought that was apparent.  What I am talking about is what every single soldier should be issued the minute they sign up for service.  A serviceable rucksack is a fundamental piece of military equipment.  In fact, I would say as a logisitican it should be of critical importance to you.  It's the most basic form of logistical equipment we have and it has proven decisive in many great military victories.

Dien Bien Phu:

64,000 Vietnamese Soldiers equipped with bags, boots, their hands and feet marched through the jungle carrying howitzers and guns on their shoulders decisively defeated the French Army who were equipped with tanks, 400+ aircraft, heavy howitzers, etc.  

The Chinese Intervention during the Korean War:

200,000 Chinese Soldiers marched 460km in 19 days carrying only what they could move on foot and with pack mules.  One particular Chinese Division averaged 29km per day during that advance, on foot.  It's probably one of the greatest military logistical feet's of all time but we don't study it in the West unfortunately.












So yes, every person in the Army needs a rucksack and full fighting order, every single person also needs a half decent pair of boots and a proper uniform.  We should also maintain an Op Stock to rapidly kit out our Units who would be able to rapidly mobilize to Battalion strength should the Balloon go up.  

I'm not talking about expensive pieces of equipment, I'm talking about bags that cost a few hundred dollars. Considering we handed back $2.3 billion dollars this year, seems like it isn't necessarily a money problem.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (13 Jun 2018)

Plus a lot of that kit will last a long time if properly stored. I kept our stock of 51 pattern webbing, so when the SYEP came along we had something to issue them, of course once that program ended I was ordered to get rid of it, despite it saving our butt and lots' of money. We are terrible at getting rid of serviceable kit. We could certainly learn lessons from the Soviets about kit retention and storage.


----------



## Halifax Tar (13 Jun 2018)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> The problem with this is, they have no requirement..... until they have a requirement.  I've been pulled in to many taskings via CFTPO where all of sudden, I required kit that had sat in my basement for a few years.  A great example of this was when I deployed to the Arctic twice on short notice.  Thank god I had my initial issue Arctic Kit otherwise I would have been SOL because supply in Kingston had almost nothing.
> 
> I'm a big believer in soldier first, office/cubicle dweller second.  How do you inculcate that culture when you don't even provide the necessary equipment for your personnel to live properly in an austere condition that they may have to go to from time to time?  How do you promote a culture of high readiness when you don't even have equipment available for the force you do have?
> 
> ...



1)  If you need kit that you aren't normally entitled too on short notice, say like your arctic deployments, then I agree Clothing stores should have available stock.  Why don't we ?  What are our return process like ?  What happens when a member looses one or "looses one"  ?  Why does the Army Sup Tech on HMCS ___________ require field kit ?  Could that kit not be better used at your local clothing stores ? 

2)  Soldier first is a fallacy outside the Army.  You can argue with me until you're blue in the face about this but I am not budging.  Trust me, I have operational time in both the RCN and CA and only one of those required any sort of soldier skills for me to complete my job.  And then when I did need those skills the CA spent countless months having me hold down a.... I mean training me. 

3)  I agree with you.  We should have the kit on the shelf to kit the sailors/soldier/air folks out.  Question, why wasn't DRMIS portal utilized; and a report run looking for all the people who do not fall under the Field Kit SOI yet have it issued ?  This should have been the first step.  Disseminate it through the CoCs and hold leadership responsible for the kit's return, then hold the members financially responsible for kit the signed for that isn't there.  

4)  Field kit has a limited critical importance too me.  I am employed at a Navy unit, and probably will be for the rest of my career.  My Army days are very likely over, sadly.  Succession planning and all that jazz,  you know.   

If you don't have an entitlement to the kit; or you did at one time and that has changed then you must return that kit. 

Go to you local Army Navy store and look at all the serviceable kit that is on those shelves ?  Why is that ?  Go on Kijiji or Ebay have another look. Why is that serviceable kit there ?  My trade has a fault to play in this as well.  Why are we not enforcing policy that is very clearly laid out ?  Why are we clearing people out of units without having them return kit ?  Why are we sending serviceable kit to the scrap bin ?  That's a whole other discussion about my trade and what has happened too it in the last 20 or so years. 

Again I don't really disagree with you, I simply think the first step should be find out who has this stuff with no entitlement too it and make those returns happen first.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (14 Jun 2018)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> 1)  If you need kit that you aren't normally entitled too on short notice, say like your arctic deployments, then I agree Clothing stores should have available stock.  Why don't we ?  What are our return process like ?  What happens when a member looses one or "looses one"  ?  Why does the Army Sup Tech on HMCS ___________ require field kit ?  Could that kit not be better used at your local clothing stores ?
> 
> 2)  Soldier first is a fallacy outside the Army.  You can argue with me until you're blue in the face about this but I am not budging.  Trust me, I have operational time in both the RCN and CA and only one of those required any sort of soldier skills for me to complete my job.  And then when I did need those skills the CA spent countless months having me hold down a.... I mean training me.



You and I are in violent agreement on the bit in yellow.  Part of the problem this Military has is the fallacy of the joint force which I believe complicates decision-making.  What's good for the Navy isn't necessarily good for the Army or Air Force and vice-versa.

I actually looked at the recall message and laughed when I saw FDU(P) and FDU(A) as the only two Navy units authorized to keep the Rucksack.  I thought to myself, why the heck are they even using that rucksack and is it even suitable for what they do?      



> 3)  I agree with you.  We should have the kit on the shelf to kit the sailors/soldier/air folks out.  Question, why wasn't DRMIS portal utilized; and a report run looking for all the people who do not fall under the Field Kit SOI yet have it issued ?  This should have been the first step.  Disseminate it through the CoCs and hold leadership responsible for the kit's return, then hold the members financially responsible for kit the signed for that isn't there.
> 
> 4)  Field kit has a limited critical importance too me.  I am employed at a Navy unit, and probably will be for the rest of my career.  My Army days are very likely over, sadly.  Succession planning and all that jazz,  you know.
> 
> If you don't have an entitlement to the kit; or you did at one time and that has changed then you must return that kit.



This comes to my next point.  If we were a proper Army or Military, we would have a climate controlled warehouse in Longue-Pointe with 200,000 of these bags and other assorted individual kit just sitting there waiting to be issued.  We aren't talking about a tank or a plane here, although a proper Military has hundreds of those also just sitting in storage.  What kind of a person orders a hiking bag and expects it to last for 30 years without ever needing to be replaced?  Oh and lets not even order enough to give to the people we do have.  

Good thing the Army doesn't use the Load Bearing March as it's Battle Fitness Standard anymore otherwise we would be pooched, although you are still supposed to complete one if you have to deploy as part of your IBTS, I'm sure we will just sign a waiver though 



> Go to you local Army Navy store and look at all the serviceable kit that is on those shelves ?  Why is that ?  Go on Kijiji or Ebay have another look. Why is that serviceable kit there ?  My trade has a fault to play in this as well.  Why are we not enforcing policy that is very clearly laid out ?  Why are we clearing people out of units without having them return kit ?  Why are we sending serviceable kit to the scrap bin ?  That's a whole other discussion about my trade and what has happened too it in the last 20 or so years.
> 
> Again I don't really disagree with you, I simply think the first step should be find out who has this stuff with no entitlement too it and make those returns happen first.



I don't blame your trade or any of the people in uniform at all.  You are just the ones responsible for having to administer and manage a fundamentally flawed system.  In fact, I think our Logistics personnel at the Tactical Level do Yeoman's Work with the soup sandwich they've been given.


----------



## Halifax Tar (15 Jun 2018)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> You and I are in violent agreement on the bit in yellow.  Part of the problem this Military has is the fallacy of the joint force which I believe complicates decision-making.  What's good for the Navy isn't necessarily good for the Army or Air Force and vice-versa.
> 
> I actually looked at the recall message and laughed when I saw FDU(P) and FDU(A) as the only two Navy units authorized to keep the Rucksack.  I thought to myself, why the heck are they even using that rucksack and is it even suitable for what they do?



I think Joint is ok, we all need to work together, but IMHO this is a direct ramification of the unification and integration that took place in the 60s and early 70s.  We tried to force 3 very different Supply services to all work in the same method, while giving small nuances, and then never giving our people the opportunity to actually learn that field to a higher degree because "Supply has to have experience in more than one environment".   

Full discretion, I am the Snr Storesman (RQ for you Army types) at FDU(A).   Ya about those rucks.  They are entitled to them off of the EOD Operator SOI, and that is a very recent development that that SOI was amended to include all CDs posted to a FDU.  It spawned out of a Snr NCM CD having a temper tantrum over not being entitled to the new ruck sack, so he got his whole trade added to the EOD Operator SOI which still only has the old ruck.  He did that in about 5 mins via an email to another Snr NCM CD who runs that SOI, and *poof* entitlement exists.  

Anyways, enough on that.  I have to stop before I get myself in trouble lol. 



			
				Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> This comes to my next point.  If we were a proper Army or Military, we would have a climate controlled warehouse in Longue-Pointe with 200,000 of these bags and other assorted individual kit just sitting there waiting to be issued.  We aren't talking about a tank or a plane here, although a proper Military has hundreds of those also just sitting in storage.  What kind of a person orders a hiking bag and expects it to last for 30 years without ever needing to be replaced?  Oh and lets not even order enough to give to the people we do have.
> 
> Good thing the Army doesn't use the Load Bearing March as it's Battle Fitness Standard anymore otherwise we would be pooched, although you are still supposed to complete one if you have to deploy as part of your IBTS, I'm sure we will just sign a waiver though



No disagreement from me.  



			
				Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> I don't blame your trade or any of the people in uniform at all.  You are just the ones responsible for having to administer and manage a fundamentally flawed system.  In fact, I think our Logistics personnel at the Tactical Level do Yeoman's Work with the soup sandwich they've been given.



I do blame my trade partially. I have been that LS/Cpl at the counter at clothing, getting berated by a Sgt because he doesn't want to return his kit.  Then he disappears into my Sgts office and *poof* he can keep his kit or perhaps no need for an MLR.  "LS Make it happen".  I can't tell you how many times I have seen stuff like that happen.  

I recently took some MLRs to the BOR that my CO had ordered to have funds recovered.  Not a clerk in that OR had any idea how to do this because it hadn't been done in forever.  We have not been holding people accountable for their kit for a very long time.  

In Mar of this year I had an LCMM and Supply Manager try to shanghai my Cpl and have him find out all of their outstand requisitions.  Yup the LCMM and SM couldn't even find out what they had outstanding to action. 

We have some, not all, extremely weak leadership in Supply and Log as a whole.  I have my opinions as to why and they aren't nice.  But that's for the Sgts/WOs mess while having a smoke and a cold one.


----------



## daftandbarmy (15 Jun 2018)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> I think Joint is ok, we all need to work together, but IMHO this is a direct ramification of the unification and integration that took place in the 60s and early 70s.  We tried to force 3 very different Supply services to all work in the same method, while giving small nuances, and then never giving our people the opportunity to actually learn that field to a higher degree because "Supply has to have experience in more than one environment".
> 
> Full discretion, I am the Snr Storesman (RQ for you Army types) at FDU(A).   Ya about those rucks.  They are entitled to them off of the EOD Operator SOI, and that is a very recent development that that SOI was amended to include all CDs posted to a FDU.  It spawned out of a Snr NCM CD having a temper tantrum over not being entitled to the new ruck sack, so he got his whole trade added to the EOD Operator SOI which still only has the old ruck.  He did that in about 5 mins via an email to another Snr NCM CD who runs that SOI, and *poof* entitlement exists.
> 
> ...



Let's get back on track....

Gun tape. I (heart) Gun Tape. 

Anyone with me?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (15 Jun 2018)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Let's get back on track....
> 
> Gun tape. I (heart) Gun Tape.
> 
> Anyone with me?



I just used some to tape up a training file folder that fell apart due to it containing the largest number of medical chits I've ever seen any candidate in the CAF have.  File Folder has been preserved!

Gun tape for then win!


----------



## Halifax Tar (15 Jun 2018)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Let's get back on track....
> 
> Gun tape. I (heart) Gun Tape.
> 
> Anyone with me?



If you can show a person who says they don't; I will show you a liar


----------



## daftandbarmy (15 Jun 2018)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> If you can show a person who says they don't; I will show you a liar



Precisely.

The ONLY way it could be made better would be to give it a matte finish, IMHO.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (15 Jun 2018)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> If you can show a person who says they don't; I will show you a liar



Love gun tape?  Nope!.  Like it, yes.  Admire?  Respect? Yes, yes.  Maybe even have a fondness that is unexplainable to those who haven't served in Canadian uniform.  But if you "heart" gun tape, you are probably doing things with it that shouldn't be known by loved ones, friends and colleagues.  And yes, I have seen some people who used gun tape for, let's say, very creative things.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (15 Jun 2018)

Heretic, burn him at the stake, for not having unconditional love of all things guntape.


----------



## OldSolduer (15 Jun 2018)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> I just used some to tape up a training file folder that fell apart due to it containing the largest number of medical chits I've ever seen any candidate in the CAF have.  File Folder has been preserved!
> 
> Gun tape for then win!



Gun tape Is awesome!


----------



## SupersonicMax (16 Jun 2018)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> ]
> 
> <caveat> I have no time with the RCAF <caveat>
> 
> ...



I am not making this up.  Same NSNs slightly different part numbers (XXXX-01 vs XXXX-02).  This was discussed at fairly high levels (GOs) somewhat recently and I believe a change is coming.  People actually irder several of the same NSN in hopes to get the right part.  And sometimes, parts are time expired or plainly unserviceable (and even identified as such)...  our supply system may work for the Army and Navy but it ain't really working for the Air Force (our airworthiness program is a lot more rigourous than equivalents jn the Navy or Army).  

The issue with aircraft is they break.  And we don't have too many.  And our force generation programs depend on aircraft availability (and 1 aircraft avalaible doesn't cut it in a fighter squadron - you need at least 
4 to do anything meaningful).  So when one breaks, we need parts yesterday.  Since we're not allowed to keep parts stocks at the unit, we have to go through the supply system.  The part takes a week to get here (and sometimes, it is the wrong part or it is not usable).  In the mean time, another aircraft breaks and we also need parts to fix it....  you see where this is going...

The Air Force, from my limited experience with other elements, has a lot faster pace while Force Generating.  It is always a high tempo to support FG (year round).  There is no real break in a year where we drop tools, stop flying and do other types of Force Generation.


----------



## daftandbarmy (16 Jun 2018)

Canopy ties, from parachutes. Do they still have those? That was part of my landing drills ‘remove canopy tie and stuff in pocket’.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (16 Jun 2018)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> That's not 100% true PC.  I would bet that there are a ton of people in the CAF who have Rucks and sleeping bag sys complete that aren't entitled to them.  We have an unfounded belief that the Canadian Forces Supply System is a constant failure, when in reality its not.  Its actually a very good system that we, the whole of the CAF, abuse and circumvent and then blame said system for failure.  We have a problem in the CAF and its Kit hoarding.  And its not just limited to clothing, its also spare parts.



Army boots.  NCDs.  aircrew knives.  flight suits.  strobe lights.

If we are short on all these things, how exactly do we have a good supply system?  I had a CT/OT show up.  He couldn't get a simple Air Ops capbadge.  Or the right slip ons.  Or boots.

That doesn't exactly reflect a 'very good system' to me.  I had to explain to Wg Supply and indirectly to the IM how there was a need for Supply to actually have on hand at least a few or the aircrew rescue tools.  They thought it was suitable if the mbr brought one in, and then a new ones was shipped from Depot.  I had to explain that the mbr might be flying the next day and that our orders state "shall fly with issued knife", etc.  It was really only when I said "ok, well I am the Sqn ALSEO and I have to go back and brief the CO on this whole shamoozle" that I really got them to listen.

If we can't get mandatory flying kit, cap badges and operational uniforms...our system is not working, IMO.


----------



## daftandbarmy (16 Jun 2018)

I love the new waterproof sleeping bag valise. Makes a great dry bag


----------



## Eagle_Eye_View (16 Jun 2018)

Sorry I’m going on a tangent here, but we desperately need flightsuit. I heard someone mention they started issuing the tan one in Portage due to a critical shortage in the system. Anyone can confirm?


----------



## SupersonicMax (16 Jun 2018)

Now imagine if all aircrew trades were 100% manned.

I canmt get flight suits that have no holes or tears from supply...


----------



## ballz (16 Jun 2018)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> We have an unfounded belief that the Canadian Forces Supply System is a constant failure, when in reality its not.  Its actually a very good system that we, the whole of the CAF, abuse and circumvent and then blame said system for failure.



If that's the problem, that's an internal control failure... which is entirely a part of the system you are calling great.

If I have a "great" financial system, but people keep stealing money... is it a great financial system?


----------



## Eye In The Sky (16 Jun 2018)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Now imagine if all aircrew trades were 100% manned.
> 
> I canmt get flight suits that have no holes or tears from supply...



And that is one layer of the 'dual layer' system;  this is, and should have been, totally preventable.  Not only can some of the Sqn folks not get flight suits, they can't get rescues tools/knives, or the outter piece of the glove system.  How are you supposed to fly with mandatory kit that you can't get ???  Where does it stop, especially with ASLE?


----------



## daftandbarmy (16 Jun 2018)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> And that is one layer of the 'dual layer' system;  this is, and should have been, totally preventable.  Not only can some of the Sqn folks not get flight suits, they can't get rescues tools/knives, or the outter piece of the glove system.  How are you supposed to fly with mandatory kit that you can't get ???  Where does it stop, especially with ASLE?



Rescue knives? I bet they're good kit, right? 

You know, like the title of this thread


----------



## TCM621 (17 Jun 2018)

As a tech, I can vouch for Max's view. A part maybe the same from a supply stand point but perhaps only certain part numbers are approved for use on the plane. Occasionally, supply will stop carrying the part and move to a different part number and we are stuck seeking deviations which can take weeks or submitting a UCR which can take months or years. This is a systematic problem not a people problem because 90 percent of the suptechs who work at the units do what they can to help. 

We have another issue which is a lack of parts being purchased or contracts for repair being unsigned. To give you a semi recent example, we had to swap Flight data recorders between planes because we had no serviceable ones in the system and no hope of getting one for months. That isn't even a case of not being able to fight a war, that is a case of being legal to fly. No one was hording FDRs, they had broken and we had no contract to fix them. 

As I said, the system is broken and I have seen similar issues with 3 services. From Ranger blankets which were ops restricted to Afghanistan forcing guys in the Sudan to take a down filled sleeping bag, to a shortage of combat clothing in popular sizes, to mission critical parts being unavailable for long periods of time. 

I know suptechs can only issue what is available so I don't blame the guys and gals on the front desk but claiming our supply problem is the result of members hording is just not true. 



			
				SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I am not making this up.  Same NSNs slightly different part numbers (XXXX-01 vs XXXX-02).  This was discussed at fairly high levels (GOs) somewhat recently and I believe a change is coming.  People actually irder several of the same NSN in hopes to get the right part.  And sometimes, parts are time expired or plainly unserviceable (and even identified as such)...  our supply system may work for the Army and Navy but it ain't really working for the Air Force (our airworthiness program is a lot more rigourous than equivalents jn the Navy or Army).
> 
> The issue with aircraft is they break.  And we don't have too many.  And our force generation programs depend on aircraft availability (and 1 aircraft avalaible doesn't cut it in a fighter squadron - you need at least
> 4 to do anything meaningful).  So when one breaks, we need parts yesterday.  Since we're not allowed to keep parts stocks at the unit, we have to go through the supply system.  The part takes a week to get here (and sometimes, it is the wrong part or it is not usable).  In the mean time, another aircraft breaks and we also need parts to fix it....  you see where this is going...
> ...


----------



## dapaterson (17 Jun 2018)

We incentivize people to work on the Transform line of business (shiny new things) and forget about the imperative of the Sustain line of business (keeping in operation what we already have).

So the Army will prioritize buying integrated GPS / radio / fighting harness / whatchamathingits over sleeping bags, rucksacks or other sustainment items.  Basic and boring doesn't get much attention or love, until it's not there.


----------



## Halifax Tar (18 Jun 2018)

I am running a 100% SCA/SLoc verification IAW Change of Command requirements.  This was previously completed in March of this year.  In less than 3 complete months since the last 100% verification I still have counts coming back with massive dollar value differences.  I still have SCA Holders asking why they cant see their holding balances.  I have NSNs that have been counted correct for the last years as suddenly coming up as deficient. 

When I first came to this unit our Log O requested a Logistics Compliance Inspection (LRI).  The final report was 22 pages long and 11 of them belonged to Supply/LPO.  The other 11 were split between HR, Finance, and NPF.  It was not a good report, I have 17 months into fixing what is years of neglect and abuse and while we aren't perfect yet we are trending in the right direction. 

Even after every member of this unit has had to read and sign the report, I continue to get static and opposition.  Material management isn't sexy.  Its time consuming and monotonous, there is no glory and usually the only feed back is negative.  If you look at the stats of requisitions submitted  V requisitions filled you will see the success rates are there. 

Hoarding is a problem with clothing items.  We have the ability too manipulate data in DRMIS to find out who is holding what.  Anything outside of a members SOI(s) can be identified and return action requested. 

Do we have a problematic procurement system, 100% yes.  Its restrictive, cumbersome, not designed for a military, and has so much red tape its a bureaucrat's wet dream.  But that is not the Canadian Forces Supply System (CFSS).  That the procurement system.  And while it feeds the CFSS they are not one in the same.  The CFSS is used to managed to the material that is fed into it.  

We are realizing that providing material support to 40 year old airframes is difficult, to put it nicely.  My 2nd ship was HMCS Preserver, we struggled with similar problems.  Hell we had crates in 12 Stores that were still labeled HMCS Hochelaga, bonus points if you know what that is/was. 

We have the systems and the policies in place to successfully conduct material management for the CAF.  Actual stores volumes and enforcement of said system and policies it outside the control of the CFSS itself. 

Neat factoid for you, our trade name is changing in the fall.  We are going from Supply Technician to Material Management Technician.  

-------------

Time for a thread split ?


----------



## Halifax Tar (18 Jun 2018)

I just read an article that I cannot post here that quotes a LCol as saying there are 4000 members in the CAF with 2 more ruck sacks.  The 4000+ surplus to members entitlements rucks sure sound like hoarding to me.


----------



## Jarnhamar (18 Jun 2018)

I just turned my second rucksack in so maybe 3999


----------



## Halifax Tar (18 Jun 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I just turned my second rucksack in so maybe 3999



 :cheers:


----------



## Eye In The Sky (18 Jun 2018)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> I just read an article that I cannot post here that quotes a LCol as saying there are 4000 members in the CAF with 2 more ruck sacks.  The 4000+ surplus to members entitlements rucks sure sound like hoarding to me.



I'd take that with a grain of salt.  I had a guy who couldn't get an aircrew rescue knife because "he still had the one issued to him when he was posted to Ottawa" according to the system.  I explained that the guy had never been to Ottawa let alone posted there...it was then determined to be a computer system error and I was told that this system is sometimes randomly putting things on peoples docs or that people are putting things on the wrong peoples docs.  So, some of the people with 2 rucksacks, according to the system, may be people who had one, returned it and instead of it removing it from their docs, it added it (that happened to me 2 years ago and took some time to sort out as well).


----------



## Gunner98 (18 Jun 2018)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Hell we had crates in 12 Stores that were still labeled HMCS Hochelaga, bonus points if you know what that is/was.



Two ships - one sold in 1942 and the other paid off in 1945, or the "third HMCS Hochelaga was a large shore establishment located in Ville de La Salle, near Montréal, Québec, was commissioned October 1, 1955. Its functions were to provide training facilities for the Supply and Secretariat Branch of the Royal Canadian Navy and to be a huge storehouse for naval stores, supplying the 2 coasts and ships of the fleet. With the unification of the Canadian Forces, the base was closed and the school moved to Canadian forces Base Borden, in Ontario."

https://www.canada.ca/en/navy/services/history/ships-histories/hochelaga.html


----------



## TCM621 (18 Jun 2018)

You are right. Procurement is the problem and the problems we have with the supply system are primarily due to you guys trying to deal with procurement issues. 




			
				Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> I am running a 100% SCA/SLoc verification IAW Change of Command requirements.  This was previously completed in March of this year.  In less than 3 complete months since the last 100% verification I still have counts coming back with massive dollar value differences.  I still have SCA Holders asking why they cant see their holding balances.  I have NSNs that have been counted correct for the last years as suddenly coming up as deficient.
> 
> When I first came to this unit our Log O requested a Logistics Compliance Inspection (LRI).  The final report was 22 pages long and 11 of them belonged to Supply/LPO.  The other 11 were split between HR, Finance, and NPF.  It was not a good report, I have 17 months into fixing what is years of neglect and abuse and while we aren't perfect yet we are trending in the right direction.
> 
> ...


----------



## Halifax Tar (18 Jun 2018)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I'd take that with a grain of salt.  I had a guy who couldn't get an aircrew rescue knife because "he still had the one issued to him when he was posted to Ottawa" according to the system.  I explained that the guy had never been to Ottawa let alone posted there...it was then determined to be a computer system error and I was told that this system is sometimes randomly putting things on peoples docs or that people are putting things on the wrong peoples docs.  So, some of the people with 2 rucksacks, according to the system, may be people who had one, returned it and instead of it removing it from their docs, it added it (that happened to me 2 years ago and took some time to sort out as well).



I really cant comment on your anecdotal example without seeing the transaction history.  Lots of times important details get missed when terminology is converted to laymen terms.  No offence intended in the slightest.  I am sure you could talk me into knots WRT what ever it is you do on an airplane. 

Having said that I faith that a LCol who is identified by name in the article was given as accurate as possible data.


----------



## Halifax Tar (18 Jun 2018)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> Two ships - one sold in 1942 and the other paid off in 1945, or the "third HMCS Hochelaga was a large shore establishment located in Ville de La Salle, near Montréal, Québec, was commissioned October 1, 1955. Its functions were to provide training facilities for the Supply and Secretariat Branch of the Royal Canadian Navy and to be a huge storehouse for naval stores, supplying the 2 coasts and ships of the fleet. With the unification of the Canadian Forces, the base was closed and the school moved to Canadian forces Base Borden, in Ontario."
> 
> https://www.canada.ca/en/navy/services/history/ships-histories/hochelaga.html



Ding ding!  Winner winner chicken dinner!  Of course I was primarily referring to the former RCN Supply Depot and Training facility, bonus points on bonus points for mentioning the former HMC Ships.


----------



## Halifax Tar (18 Jun 2018)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> You are right. Procurement is the problem and the problems we have with the supply system are primarily due to you guys trying to deal with procurement issues.



And these issues are often times the result of RCN, RCAF and CA command level decisions and directives or outside of the CAF all together.  Think Public Services and Procurement Canada; formerly known as PWGSC. 

Just look at the RCN going their own way with NASCAR NCD jackets.  This was all done outside of the CFSS and without approval or involvement of ADM(MAT).  That has turned into a dogs breakfast, with a myriad of jackets with varying styles and amounts of patches.


----------



## PuckChaser (18 Jun 2018)

People hoard because they either have limited ethics or don't trust the supply system to get them replacement kit. I think you'd have a significantly reduced hoarding problem if you could get your full SOI (within reason that some items need to be shipped base to base) without having to argue against the massive whiteboard of "deployment only" items.


----------



## Halifax Tar (18 Jun 2018)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> People hoard because they either have limited ethics or don't trust the supply system to get them replacement kit. I think you'd have a significantly reduced hoarding problem if you could get your full SOI (within reason that some items need to be shipped base to base) without having to argue against the massive whiteboard of "deployment only" items.



I agree.  So everyone that is over entitlements should be identified and forced to return their surplus kit.  If people fail to produce said kit they should be held financially responsible.  And that recovered funding should be put towards the replacement of clothing and personal issue items.


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## Halifax Tar (18 Jun 2018)

I actually would like to see us get out of the clothing business altogether and go the American route.  Where you one initial issue for free and the remainder is on your own dime.


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## MJP (18 Jun 2018)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> People hoard because they either have limited ethics or don't trust the supply system to get them replacement kit. I think you'd have a significantly reduced hoarding problem if you could get your full SOI (within reason that some items need to be shipped base to base) without having to argue against the massive whiteboard of "deployment only" items.



The Supply system doesn't designate something deployment only, the owner of that equipment does so your beef is with the CA, RCN, or RCAF.  If a soldier's SOI says  they get x if they are in y posn and they aren't getting it then yes you have an argument.


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## daftandbarmy (18 Jun 2018)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> I am running a 100% SCA/SLoc verification IAW Change of Command requirements.  This was previously completed in March of this year.  In less than 3 complete months since the last 100% verification I still have counts coming back with massive dollar value differences.  I still have SCA Holders asking why they cant see their holding balances.  I have NSNs that have been counted correct for the last years as suddenly coming up as deficient.
> -------------
> 
> Time for a thread split ?



I would agree!


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## Lumber (19 Jun 2018)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> I am running a 100% SCA/SLoc verification IAW Change of Command requirements.  This was previously completed in March of this year.  In less than 3 complete months since the last 100% verification I still have counts coming back with massive dollar value differences.  I still have SCA Holders asking why they cant see their holding balances.  I have NSNs that have been counted correct for the last years as suddenly coming up as deficient.



Oh no! Are you implying that people at FDU did things in such a way as to avoid doing any actual work and avoid any negative image?! It can't be!


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## Colin Parkinson (19 Jun 2018)

Back to the intent of this thread, those cans of silicone water repellent were very useful, for boots, poncho, rain gear.


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## Halifax Tar (19 Jun 2018)

Lumber said:
			
		

> Oh no! Are you implying that people at FDU did things in such a way as to avoid doing any actual work and avoid any negative image?! It can't be!



I have already recommended a thread split.  



			
				Lumber said:
			
		

> Oh no! Are you implying that people at FDU did things in such a way as to avoid doing any actual work and avoid any negative image?! It can't be!



I cant comment on their volume of work,  Im the Snr Sup Tech not a CD, but trying to get things done like SCA verification's is like pulling teeth at times. 

But if you ask around you will find that they are busiest unit in the RCN.  True or not, I have no idea.  Im just supposed to make sure they are up to speed on everything Supply.


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## Humphrey Bogart (19 Jun 2018)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> I have already recommended a thread split.
> 
> I cant comment on their volume of work,  Im the Snr Sup Tech not a CD, but trying to get things done like SCA verification's is like pulling teeth at times.
> 
> But if you ask around you will find that they are busiest unit in the RCN.  True or not, I have no idea.  Im just supposed to make sure they are up to speed on everything Supply.



I'll split the thread when I get homw tonight   8)


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## daftandbarmy (19 Jun 2018)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Back to the intent of this thread, those cans of silicone water repellent were very useful, for boots, poncho, rain gear.



And fire starting! A couple of cans came in handy once after a particularly wet night, once upon a time


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## Halifax Tar (19 Jun 2018)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Back to the intent of this thread, those cans of silicone water repellent were very useful, for boots, poncho, rain gear.



I still have a can of that and the boot blackner somewhere in my tool room...


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