# Don't let this happen[must read]



## Jungle (24 Aug 2004)

*Don't Let This Be Your Mom*

There was little Johnny, the apple of his mother's eye, deeply involved in his Recruit Training Course at St-Jean. It was not at all what he expected. He wrote to his mother:

â Å“Dear Mum,
I am having a bit of trouble here. There is a lot of shouting and yelling. I made a mistake on the Drill Square today and the Sergeant was really mean to me. I try very hard and I don't think he should yell like that. It scares me when people yell at me!â ?

Johnny's mom was outraged! She wrote to the Prime Minister, the Defence Minister, her local MP, the Chief of the Defence Staff, The Chief of Land Staff and everyone else she could think of. Her little boy had bravely volunteered to serve his country and now was being subjected to unspeakable acts of brutality.

Some time later, Mcpl Smith was again sweating his goonta out trying to turn this horrible bunch of civilians into a well-disciplined section. He gave his commands clearly, succinctly and loudly. Every now and then he was required to highlight the failings of a particular recruit in the approved Army manner. His Platoon WO approached him:
â Å“Mcpl Smith, it's out!â ?
â Å“What is Warrant?â ? Mcpl Smith asked.
â Å“The whole loud voice and criticism thing. It's just come down from the Minister!â ? Mcpl Smith continued his lesson in a quiet voice and despite the constant errors on the part of the recruits, refused to criticise them. He finished the lesson and marched his section off for a lecture on the rights and privileges from the social workers team.

Little Johnny again wrote to his mother:

â Å“Dear Mom,
	Nobody is yelling at us any more and that's good, but today we were taught bayonet fighting by the platoon WO. This was terribly frightening! Just the thought of attacking someone with a bayonet makes me feel quite ill!â ?

Johnny's mom was outraged! She wrote to the Prime Minister, the Defence Minister, her local MP, the Chief of the Defence Staff, The Chief of Land Staff and everyone else she could think of. Her little boy had bravely volunteered to serve his country and now was being subjected to unspeakable acts of brutality. What kind of modern country would resort to fighting in this manner? Why on earth do my taxes get spent on smart weapons and still my baby boy has to learn to be a savage?

Some time later, the platoon WO was attempting to instil the requisite amount of fighting spirit in his recruits. The bayonet drill was going as well as could be expected, particularly as all the commands were given in a very quiet voice. The platoon commander hurried over to him.
â Å“Warrant, it's out!â ?
â Å“What's out Sir?â ?
â Å“Bayonet fighting. It just came down from the Minister!â ?
The platoon WO dutifully finished the lesson then and there and sent the recruits off for character guidance and equity training with the Padre.

Two years later, in a country that sponsored terrorism, little Johnny was in a fighting pit. The enemy had managed to surround little Johnny's platoon and they were cut off, outnumbered and outgunned and out of ammunition. Things looked grim. Little Johnny's sect commander saw the next wave of attackers gathering to charge the platoon position. He yelled a warning to Johnny. Johnny wasn't used to be yelled at and became scared and confused. He couldn't understand what the Sgt wanted him to do. The Sgt jumped out of his pit and dashed across the open ground to Johnny's position. As he ran, a bullet struck him in the chest. He landed in a crumpled heap at the bottom of Johnny's pit, mortally wounded.
â Å“I said fix bayonets John. These mongrels are gonna over run us!â ?
Johnny grabbed his bayonet. He tried every which way to fix it to his rifle but he just couldn't remember how. His Sgt managed to fix the bayonet for him, despite loss of blood and sliding into shock.
â Å“There ya go John. Give 'em heck when they come for us!â ?
Johnny did his best. The enemy charged into his pit but the screaming and yelling scared and confused him. He waved the rifle and bayonet around but wasn't sure exactly what he was doing. Little Johnny and his platoon didn't make it.

Some time later a Board of Inquiry determined that poor training had led directly to poor performance on the battlefield.

	Johnny's mom was outraged!   She wrote to the Prime Minister, the Defence Minister, her local MP, the Chief of the Defence Staff, The Chief of Land Staff and everyone else she could think of. Her little boy had bravely volunteered to serve his country and now was being subjected to unspeakable acts of brutality. One would expect that if he was to be placed in harm's way, the least the Army could do was train him properly...

...Don't Let This Be Your Mom...


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## CdnGalaGal (24 Aug 2004)

Good story, good moral.


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## George Wallace (24 Aug 2004)

Unfourtunately, lost by so many....

GW


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## Bruce Monkhouse (24 Aug 2004)

...like the old saying "Look, everybodys out of step except my son Johnny"


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## CF104Starfighter (25 Aug 2004)

Hah, if I ever wrote a letter like that to my mom, she'd end up yelling at me, not the PMO.  My sister would call home crying everyday for the first month of BOTC, and all my mom could say was "When the going gets tough, the tough gets going."  And the usual, "I've done basic training, you're dad's done basic training, don't cry, it'll get better."  It did...She cried when she left, and she cried when she got home


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## Slim (25 Aug 2004)

There was little Johnny, the apple of his mother's eye, deeply involved in his Recruit Training Course at St-Jean. It was not at all what he expected.  


Great story Jungle! 

The sad part is that the majority of people (apart from the older members) won't have a clue what its about! Or see the relevance!

When I went through Cornwallis we started with a platoon of 163. There were many people who were cut. By the end we were down to about 40. The graduates, who had successfully completed the  course, really felt like they'd earned something.

That was in '89. I bet it wouldn't happenn today...

Slim


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## CF104Starfighter (25 Aug 2004)

Lots of people on my sister's BOTC course were cut.  She was the only one in her unit to finish.  And I remember her saying that they sent a lot of people home.


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## CdnGalaGal (25 Aug 2004)

It is incredibly hard now to kick a bag 'o hammers off a course  - especially a BRT.. or BMQ... whatever it's called nowadays. Without a mile high pile of paperwork that is written, read, then proofread and edited a dozen times, it's virtually impossible... and the guy (or girl) gets through the course and is left with their units to deal with them. So much for the weeding out process...


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## Scott (25 Aug 2004)

My father was an instructor in Cornwallis in the late 70's (77-79) and he loooooooooooves to rant about how the way people are trained has changed. He said that, fundamentally, the "things" a person is taught have grown, the manner it is done has changed.

All because of Johnny's Mom.

Just thoughts


Jungle, I take your story as a comment on how things are done today. I agree.


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## Slim (26 Aug 2004)

CF104Starfighter said:
			
		

> Lots of people on my sister's BOTC course were cut.   She was the only one in her unit to finish.   And I remember her saying that they sent a lot of people home.



How many people were removed from your course?


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## CF104Starfighter (26 Aug 2004)

Slim said:
			
		

> How many people were removed from your course?


*Sister's BOTC course.  

That's why I don't know the exact number.  I know that of three people in her unit that went, she was the only one to finish.


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## Slim (26 Aug 2004)

Sister's BOTC course

I see. So you were never in Basic training, or the modern equivilant?


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## OLD F of S (26 Aug 2004)

Times have changed when I joined the RCEME Corps in 1965 we were sent to one of the
infantry regts for basic. In my case it was 2 PPCLI we started with 30 and ended up with 28.
I believe the low attrition rate was due to the regtimental structuring of the training.

         We were taught very early you left no one behind if some of the lads had problems you
helped them as a platoon be it spitshone boots or section in attack. It was training that helped
me for over 30 years.


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## Danjanou (26 Aug 2004)

Good story Jungle. 

Ah for the old days and the old ways. Sometimes I regret packing it in when I did. Then I stop and think would I really want to go and play on the two way range now with a platoon full of "little Johnnies?"


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## commando_wolf63 (27 Aug 2004)

Good Story Jungle


If I had been little Johnnys mother I'd have told him to either tough it out or get out.
Recently My son and I were sitting down and Chatting about our experiences as Cadets. He has now aged out, I told him what I went through when training for Cadets, Reserves and Reg Forces. I ended up shaking my head in bewilderment Cadet training is now more like what my brother did as a Boy Scout. Every yr that my son spent in Cadets at the start of a new training yr, each Cadet had to participate in C.H.A.P.S (cadet harrassment abuse prevention s???)
In the Reserves while taking my training if any body messed up X# of times in one day. they'd be the plug of the day and have to wear a bathroom sink plug around thier neck. Yes I humblely admit one morning I had been plug of the day until someone else royaly screwed up. Now days that prob wouldnt be allowed. 


I don't know how many members of this site were in the Military either Regs or Reserves prior to the Changes.


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## CF104Starfighter (29 Aug 2004)

Slim said:
			
		

> Sister's BOTC course
> 
> I see. So you were never in Basic training, or the modern equivilant?


Mmm, no, and I hope that doesn't have to do with anything.


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## beach_bum (29 Aug 2004)

I find I get more and more phone calls from young soldiers parents, (and sometimes they even show up at the armoury angry about something young Johnny has told them) than I have ever had.  It's very frustrating to deal with these people.    They don't seem to realize that their son or daughter is the one who needs to do the talking, and not them.  As a parent I understand how protective you can feel.....but come on!  These are not 5 year olds having a bad play date (though some of them act like it!!!! :) but members of the military.  My parents would never have made calls like that (they would've told me to deal with it) and I would never have asked them to do so.  I would've been mortified to have my parents jump into my life that way! :-[


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## Slim (2 Sep 2004)

CF104Starfighter said:
			
		

> Mmm, no, and I hope that doesn't have to do with anything.



What it has to do with it is that your information is second hand and unverifiable. "lots of people" doesn't mean anything beyond you wishing to argue with someone on a topic you have no firsthand information or personal perspective about.

How can you compare recruit retention rates and quality control today if you have never experienced either the current or the former system at work?

What do you really know about the recruit training system right now verses 10 years ago? Do you have anything relevant to contribute to this discussion?

Please consider your topics carefully before you jump in.

Slim

By the way Jungle...I'd like to E-mail your story to every PC pacifist left-wing newspaper and political body I can think of!...Of course it wouldn't actually DO any good, but I'd feel better! :skull:


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## big_castor (2 Sep 2004)

commando_wolf63 said:
			
		

> Every yr that my son spent in Cadets at the start of a new training yr, each Cadet had to participate in C.H.A.P.S (cadet harrassment abuse prevention s???)



And that's a bad thing ?


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## Slim (2 Sep 2004)

Not for cadets it isn't.

For regular soldiers, its castrating them! The current climate does not allow soldiers to soldier...This kinder, gentler army is detrimental to a fighting force. SHARP contributes negatively to that. This whole notion that we are a nation of peacekeepers is a load of hogwash. If a soldier can't fight then he/she certainly can't peacekeep.

The other side of the coin, of course, is that the govt. has to grow a pair of balls and stop this political correctness crap that is slowly strangling the CF.


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## Scott (3 Sep 2004)

Slim said:
			
		

> Not for cadets it isn't.
> 
> For regular soldiers, its castrating them! The current climate does not allow soldiers to soldier...This kinder, gentler army is detrimental to a fighting force. SHARP contributes negatively to that. This whole notion that we are a nation of peacekeepers is a load of hogwash. If a soldier can't fight then he/she certainly can't peacekeep.
> 
> The other side of the coin, of course, is that the govt. has to grow a pair of balls and stop this political correctness crap that is slowly strangling the CF.



AYE!!!!


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## MikeM (15 Sep 2004)

Excellent story Jungle!


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## Jungle (15 Sep 2004)

The problem is, we have a lot of people like Johnny's mom in the Military. I'm not talking about their mom, I'm talking about the members themselves. How often do you hear things like "I'm not in the Infantry" or "this is Army shit, I'm a technician". They don't want to go to the field, They don't want to train hard. Hell, I know friends who escorted SVC BATT convoys in Bosnia, in the mid-90s, who discovered that the Loggies had removed their firing pin from their rifle to avoid having an AD. This is the kind of attitude that is prevalent in a number of units in our Military.
People want the static, cushy posting, wear the uniform as little as possible, don't work out, don't go to the field, but are not ashamed to pick up their pay.
Don't be Johnny either, he whined to his mom and got this started...


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## George Wallace (15 Sep 2004)

Jungle said:
			
		

> The problem is, we have a lot of people like Johnny's mom in the Military...... I'm talking about the members themselves. ......... I know friends who escorted SVC BATT convoys in Bosnia, in the mid-90s, who discovered that the Loggies had removed their firing pin from their rifle to avoid having an AD. ................



I can only shake my head in disbelief.

GW


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## Scott (15 Sep 2004)

Was there any recourse for their actions Jungle?

Like say, a hard slap?


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## Slim (16 Sep 2004)

> SVC BATT convoys in Bosnia, in the mid-90s, who discovered that the Loggies had removed their firing pin from their rifle to avoid having an AD



Are you completely serious?! I've heard stories of some police officers going on duty with an unloaded firearm...But this...this is a warzone and those people may have had to defend themselves with their personel weapon!

That action, in and of itself, should have been a chargeable offence!

Disgusting...

Slim


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## Blindspot (16 Sep 2004)

commando_wolf63 said:
			
		

> I ended up shaking my head in bewilderment Cadet training is now more like what my brother did as a Boy Scout. Every yr that my son spent in Cadets at the start of a new training yr, each Cadet had to participate in C.H.A.P.S (cadet harrassment abuse prevention s???)



It's called "feminization" and it's been happening everywhere (school, scouts, sports, military, workplace, politics) to boys and young men for at least a couple generations.


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## Slim (16 Sep 2004)

> It's called "feminization"



Although I agree with you for the most part, you might wish to watch how you phraze things...We have our own version of SHARPE here and you may get chewed on for saying that...

Just a friendly thought. 

Slim


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## Blindspot (17 Sep 2004)

Slim said:
			
		

> We have our own version of SHARPE here and you may get chewed on for saying that...



SHARPE?


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## Jarnhamar (19 Sep 2004)

"he can't be gay, he's an indian"


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## sgt_mandal (19 Sep 2004)

commando_wolf63 said:
			
		

> each Cadet had to participate in C.H.A.P.S (cadet harassment abuse prevention s???)



It's actually CHAP(P) (some people put the extra P on the end others don't), Cadet Harassment and Abuse Prevention Programme. Just in case you were wondering.


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## Korus (20 Sep 2004)

I did my reserve BMQ just over 2 years ago now, and I must say one of the biggest shocks I've had in the army was.... how lax and PC it was. I was expecting it to be MUCH worse. To be honest, I didn't really begin to feel like a soldier (albeit a part time soldier) until my SQ, which was more "army-like', for lack of a better expression, but still had some of the problems mentioned.


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## PTE Gruending (20 Sep 2004)

In my brief experience in the 'Mo, I have never actually heard of anyone being charged or getting into trouble based on the SHARP protocols which are now in place. Perhaps anecdotes from other users on this forum can serve to prove SHARP's validity or its stupidity, I do not know....

However as far as a mindset, I have split opinions on Canada's lack of 'espirit du core' (sp?). I am sure we have all witnessed enough television and movies to see the marching cadence's, philosophies, and the like being reinforced into American recruits, "There is nothing more dangerous than a Marine and his rifle", "Spirit of the Bayonet - KILL KILL KILL with cold blue STEEL!", "What makes the grass grow green?? BLOOD BLOOD BLOOD". You all know where I am going with this. Does this lack of a philosophy have a negative effect on our morale? Or does the lack of said motto's and philosophies seperate us from our more bloodthirsty compatriots - we are the most requested peacekeepers in the world after all.

Of all the PC issues in the Army today, nothing bugs me more than the fact that you can be completely incompetant, yet still pass or even excel in courses. Not only the incompetent, insubordinate, or unmotivated be discharged in their basic training, but recruits should have certain fitness, intelligence, and competency standards to ensure that only the upper echelons make it back to their unit. Perhaps CFRC does a certain amount of screening to weed out the weak or inept, however it would be nice to see people graduate courses glad that they "made it". Certainly my BMQ 2+ years ago, 25-35% of the recruits had no business being in the military, and probably I would only want the top 40% beside my if the $#$# hit the fan....


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## Korus (20 Sep 2004)

On the flip side of the coin, a lot of the people on my BMQ who didn't quite belong in the CF, but made it through, have already left the army..


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## ackland (20 Sep 2004)

Gruending said:
			
		

> In my brief experience in the 'Mo, I have never actually heard of anyone being charged or getting into trouble based on the SHARP protocols which are now in place. Perhaps anecdotes from other users on this forum can serve to prove SHARP's validity or its stupidity, I do not know....
> 
> However as far as a mindset, I have split opinions on Canada's lack of 'espirit du core' (sp?). I am sure we have all witnessed enough television and movies to see the marching cadence's, philosophies, and the like being reinforced into American recruits, "There is nothing more dangerous than a Marine and his rifle", "Spirit of the Bayonet - KILL KILL KILL with cold blue STEEL!", "What makes the grass grow green?? BLOOD BLOOD BLOOD". You all know where I am going with this. Does this lack of a philosophy have a negative effect on our morale? Or does the lack of said motto's and philosophies seperate us from our more bloodthirsty compatriots - we are the most requested peacekeepers in the world after all.
> 
> Of all the PC issues in the Army today, nothing bugs me more than the fact that you can be completely incompetant, yet still pass or even excel in courses. Not only the incompetent, insubordinate, or unmotivated be discharged in their basic training, but recruits should have certain fitness, intelligence, and competency standards to ensure that only the upper echelons make it back to their unit. Perhaps CFRC does a certain amount of screening to weed out the weak or inept, however it would be nice to see people graduate courses glad that they "made it". Certainly my BMQ 2+ years ago, 25-35% of the recruits had no business being in the military, and probably I would only want the top 40% beside my if the $#$# hit the fan....



Does this mean you are no longer a member of the CF or are you now Regs?

I was just wondering what you based your opinion on.


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## the 48th regulator (20 Sep 2004)

Jungle said:
			
		

> The problem is, we have a lot of people like Johnny's mom in the Military. I'm not talking about their mom, I'm talking about the members themselves. How often do you hear things like "I'm not in the Infantry" or "this is Army crap, I'm a technician". They don't want to go to the field, They don't want to train hard. heck, I know friends who escorted SVC BATT convoys in Bosnia, in the mid-90s, who discovered that the Loggies had removed their firing pin from their rifle to avoid having an AD. This is the kind of attitude that is prevalent in a number of units in our Military.
> People want the static, cushy posting, wear the uniform as little as possible, don't work out, don't go to the field, but are not ashamed to pick up their pay.
> Don't be Johnny either, he whined to his mom and got this started...



You got it Jungle, I wouldn't be pissed at johnny's Mommy, the blame lies completely on Johnny.   If I may borrow a line I used many a time when I tought, I would love to bring Johnny's mom down to and make her do pushups.   Not for complaining to the higher ups, but, for raising a whining little baby that cries to his mum when times are tough.

amen

Tess


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