# Civilians - coming onboard or leaving Canadian warship -



## Marinero2008 (6 Sep 2008)

What is a proper etiquette for a civilian when entering Navy ship or leaving after the visit? They do not salute the flag, do they?


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## Ex-Dragoon (6 Sep 2008)

On a commissioned warship (or one thats in service) while it would be nice, its not expected a member of the general public to pay compliments. So in a nutshell don't worry about it.

If you have some sort of desire to do so, just pause for a second, and if male remove your headress. If the ship is open to the public, there is no need to ask permission to come aboard or anything of that nature.


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## Neill McKay (7 Sep 2008)

Marinero2008 said:
			
		

> What is a proper etiquette for a civilian when entering Navy ship or leaving after the visit? They do not salute the flag, do they?



As a small nit-pick, nobody salutes the flag in a Canadian warship.  It's the quarterdeck that is being saluted.  Saluting the flag is a US custom.


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## Ex-Dragoon (7 Sep 2008)

In laymans terms though, not many civilians know the difference between the quarterdeck or any other deck on the ship, so knowing they have to do something for where the Canadian Flag (ensign)is located is a good thing. So give credit where credit is due and worry less on the nitpicky details.


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## Neill McKay (7 Sep 2008)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> In laymans terms though, not many civilians know the difference between the quarterdeck or any other deck on the ship, so knowing they have to do something for where the Canadian Flag (ensign)is located is a good thing. So give credit where credit is due and worry less on the nitpicky details.



Absolutely correct.  I was thinking more about third-party readers.  It's not unknown for a new NCdt or whatever to turn and face the flag to salute when going aboard a ship.  (In fact, one recruiting video shows a whole raft of them doing just that: get to the head of the brow, turn purposefully aft, salute, step aboard, next.)


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## Bass ackwards (7 Sep 2008)

It's kind of a moot point, isn't it? 
I was under the impression that civilians, unless they are in a uniform of some sort (police, fire dept., etc), should not salute. Ditto for service personnel while in civvies. 

Would asking permission to come aboard not be considered a courteous gesture?


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## Shamrock (7 Sep 2008)

N. McKay said:
			
		

> I was thinking more about third-party readers.



Where's the quarter deck?


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## Nfld Sapper (7 Sep 2008)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> Where's the quarter deck?



Next to the poop deck  ;D


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## Ex-Dragoon (7 Sep 2008)

Bass ackwards said:
			
		

> It's kind of a moot point, isn't it?
> I was under the impression that civilians, unless they are in a uniform of some sort (police, fire dept., etc), should not salute. Ditto for service personnel while in civvies.
> 
> Would asking permission to come aboard not be considered a courteous gesture?



Look at it this way...if a ship is in its homeport, unless a civillian is with a member of the ships company they are not getting into the Dockyard. If a ship is visiting a port and its open to visitors then during those hours the public can tour at will. The permission to come aboard is from too many movies.


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## Neill McKay (7 Sep 2008)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> Where's the quarter deck?



Typically at or near the stern of a ship.  The quarterdeck is traditionally where the Captain would tend to stand (in sailing ships) and is looked upon as having special significance in the "spirit" of a ship.  It is a little bit like the parade square in the army, a sort of "hallowed ground".



			
				Bass ackwards said:
			
		

> It's kind of a moot point, isn't it?
> I was under the impression that civilians, unless they are in a uniform of some sort (police, fire dept., etc), should not salute. Ditto for service personnel while in civvies.



That's correct.  Service personnel in civilian clothes remove their hats on occasions when it would be appropriate to salute if in uniform.  Civilians keen on getting the details of protocol right may do the same (but will not attract much grief in most situations if they don't).


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## Ex-Dragoon (7 Sep 2008)

Its also where the shrine was located back before the middle ages.


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## dimsum (7 Sep 2008)

During my time on the MCDVs, the brows were actually rigged on the foc'sle, not the sweep (quarter) deck.  When we crossed the brow and saluted, I don't recall anyone actually turning towards the quarterdeck.  I could be wrong, of course.


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## Neill McKay (7 Sep 2008)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> During my time on the MCDVs, the brows were actually rigged on the foc'sle, not the sweep (quarter) deck.  When we crossed the brow and saluted, I don't recall anyone actually turning towards the quarterdeck.  I could be wrong, of course.



Nobody should ever turn; you just salute as you step aboard, in whatever direction you're naturally facing.


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## Danjanou (7 Sep 2008)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Its also where the shrine was located back before the middle ages.



Just how long have you been in? 8)


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## Marinero2008 (7 Sep 2008)

N. McKay said:
			
		

> .... Saluting the flag is a US custom.


Actually McKay, it's not only US custom. Some European Navies do this as well: e.g. in Polish Navy when coming on board or leaving the ship they salute the flag from 0800 hrs till sundown when the flag is lowered.


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## Ex-Dragoon (7 Sep 2008)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> During my time on the MCDVs, the brows were actually rigged on the foc'sle, not the sweep (quarter) deck.  When we crossed the brow and saluted, I don't recall anyone actually turning towards the quarterdeck.  I could be wrong, of course.



never had other nations sailors come onboard during your tenure there? I don't recall anyone else besides ourselves that don't stop turn and face the quarterdeck.

Danjanou:
Feels like several lifetimes sometimes. smartass


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## cobbler (8 Sep 2008)

Bass ackwards said:
			
		

> It's kind of a moot point, isn't it?
> I was under the impression that civilians, unless they are in a uniform of some sort (police, fire dept., etc), should not salute. *Ditto for service personnel while in civvies. *


Interesting. In the Aussie Navy, military personnel salute the gangway regardless. Whether you be in S1 ceromonials, or if you are drunk as a skunk returning from a big run ashore in some pretty grotty civvies.



			
				Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> never had other nations sailors come onboard during your tenure there? I don't recall anyone else besides ourselves that don't stop turn and face the quarterdeck.



Aussies, Kiwis, I would have thought the Poms, dont turn. Just keep walking and throw a goffa.


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## Neill McKay (8 Sep 2008)

cobbler said:
			
		

> Interesting. In the Aussie Navy, military personnel salute the gangway regardless. Whether you be in S1 ceromonials, or if you are drunk as a skunk returning from a big run ashore it some pretty grotty civvies.



Just in case I'm misunderstanding you, is it customary in the RAN for a member will salute when wearing civilian clothing?



			
				Marinero2008 said:
			
		

> Actually McKay, it's not only US custom. Some European Navies do this as well: e.g. in Polish Navy when coming on board or leaving the ship they salute the flag from 0800 hrs till sundown when the flag is lowered.



Yes, I was being a bit narrow in my thinking I guess.  There's surely a whole variety of "brow ceremonial" in the various navies of the world.


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## Harley Sailor (8 Sep 2008)

N. McKay said:
			
		

> That's correct.  Service personnel in civilian clothes remove their hats on occasions when it would be appropriate to salute if in uniform.  Civilians keen on getting the details of protocol right may do the same (but will not attract much grief in most situations if they don't).



Very interesting that you should see it that way.  Having stood brow watches for the first 15 of my 30 year career I have never seen anyone cross the brow with a hat on that was not asked to remove it.  If they ever got onboard still wearing their hat the brow watch keeper would later hear it from the Officer of the day.


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## MARS (8 Sep 2008)

Here is the official procedure, taken from the Maritime Command Manual of Ceremony for HMC Ships, Submarines and NRDs:

http://maritime.mil.ca/english/refs/pubs/Repository/MANUAL_OF_CEREMONIAL_HMC_SHIPS_17Nov04.pdf

7. On board HMC Ships, individual compliments are paid and acknowledged in accordance with chapter 1, paragraph 2.c. and as amplified herein, such that:

a. when naval officers, either in civilian clothes or when not wearing headdress, are paid a compliment in the form of a hand salute, they shall acknowledge and return the salute by assuming the position of “Attention”;

b. when naval officers embark or disembark HMC Ships, it is customary to pay compliments to the ship, in the form of saluting the Quarterdeck (or in NRDs, the area designated as the ‘quarterdeck’ or ‘brow’). Personnel shall pay compliments to the Quarterdeck by facing the direction of the ship’s Ensign, assuming the position of “Attention” and saluting. While in plain clothes, personnel shall face the direction of the Ship’s Ensign and:

(1) assume the position of “Attention”, or
(2) while wearing a cap, assume the position of “Attention” and remove the cap;

c. when an officer embarks or disembarks from the ship, regardless of dress, the Quartermaster and OOD (if present) shall pay compliments by saluting;

If I read this correctly, it seems to imply that we should actually be turning to face the ensign. ???  I don't know why paragraph 7(b) starts out with the words "when _naval officers_..." and then changes to "_personnel_" in the second sentence, but I take it to mean "everyone".  Not sure how this is supposed to apply to the other elements...

Thoughts?


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## Snakedoc (8 Sep 2008)

Just for clarification, does point 7c) refer to the quartermaster and OOD paying compliments everytime an officer embarks or disembarks only if they are of higher rank?  or regardless of rank?  I would have thought the former but I don't believe the procedure specifys.


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## dimsum (8 Sep 2008)

Snakedoc said:
			
		

> Just for clarification, does point 7c) refer to the quartermaster and OOD paying compliments everytime an officer embarks or disembarks only if they are of higher rank?  or regardless of rank?  I would have thought the former but I don't believe the procedure specifys.



Anytime a commissioned officer em/disembarks, regardless of rank.


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## Neill McKay (8 Sep 2008)

Harley Sailor said:
			
		

> Very interesting that you should see it that way.  Having stood brow watches for the first 15 of my 30 year career I have never seen anyone cross the brow with a hat on that was not asked to remove it.  If they ever got onboard still wearing their hat the brow watch keeper would later hear it from the Officer of the day.



Being asked to remove one's hat is not what I would picture when I say "much grief".  Presumably the brow watchkeeper was polite about it...

But I am glad to hear that something is said in that situation.



			
				MARS said:
			
		

> b. when naval officers embark or disembark HMC Ships, it is customary to pay compliments to the ship, in the form of saluting the Quarterdeck (or in NRDs, the area designated as the ‘quarterdeck’ or ‘brow’). Personnel shall pay compliments to the Quarterdeck by *facing the direction of the ship’s Ensign*, assuming the position of “Attention” and saluting. While in plain clothes, personnel shall face the direction of the Ship’s Ensign and:



This is relatively new; the version I have (from 1999 so getting on in years) definitely does not mention turning to face the ensign.


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## cobbler (9 Sep 2008)

N. McKay said:
			
		

> Just in case I'm misunderstanding you, is it customary in the RAN for a member will salute when wearing civilian clothing?



Correct.

When crossing an RAN brow in civilian clothing it is customary to salute.


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## dwalter (9 Sep 2008)

MARS said:
			
		

> If I read this correctly, it seems to imply that we should actually be turning to face the ensign. ???  I don't know why paragraph 7(b) starts out with the words "when _naval officers_..." and then changes to "_personnel_" in the second sentence, but I take it to mean "everyone".  Not sure how this is supposed to apply to the other elements...
> 
> Thoughts?



I had my swearing in aboard the Winnipeg, and whenever the ship's company came aboard the ship, they simply saluted to the direction of the flag, they didn't perform an actual turn. I'm not sure of the regulation implies that, or if it means to perform a turn rather than a paying of compliments in the direction of the flag. The way it's written it might be interpreted either way.


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## Marinero2008 (10 Sep 2008)

Intelligent Design said:
			
		

> I had my swearing in aboard the Winnipeg, and whenever the ship's company came aboard the ship, they simply saluted to the direction of the flag, they didn't perform an actual turn.



That was my observation as well when I visited HMCS "Charlottetown".  I also saw an older gentleman in civilian clothing taking off his head gear and pausing for a moment when crossing the brow.


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## Ex-Dragoon (10 Sep 2008)

Marinero2008 said:
			
		

> That was my observation as well when I visited HMCS "Charlottetown".  I also saw an older gentleman in civilian clothing taking off his head gear and pausing for a moment when crossing the brow.



Chances are he was ex Navy


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## Sailorwest (10 Sep 2008)

This is relatively new; the version I have (from 1999 so getting on in years) definitely does not mention turning to face the ensign.

Initially I thought this was just a Venture thing as the only people I ever saw doing it were JOUTS. I assume that it is the ceremonial mafia making change for the sake of change. In my far away time as a trainee, it was made clear to me (i think by an AB) that there was no stopping to salute while coming across the brow. I certainly don' t recall a 'turn to face the quarterdeck' move either. 
It shouldn't surprise me either, as the manual was re-written at that time to remove the requirement for commissioning pennants from being at the mast of an NRD.


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## Neill McKay (11 Sep 2008)

Sailorwest said:
			
		

> I assume that it is the ceremonial mafia making change



I suspect you're right, but what a bizarre irony.


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## HansonSherren (23 Sep 2008)

So forgive me as I'm new and just recently applied, but once I'm stationed to a ship - my husband and two kids could come aboard and have a tour?  My 4 year old son would get a KICK out of that!


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## hugh19 (23 Sep 2008)

Generally yes they can. you will just have to sign them into dockyard and take them to the ship.


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## HansonSherren (23 Sep 2008)

sledge said:
			
		

> Generally yes they can. you will just have to sign them into dockyard and take them to the ship.



Awesome!  Thanks!!


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