# Chopper on offer to cops



## Slim (17 Nov 2005)

> *Chopper on offer to cops*
> 
> Chief says a helicopter would be useful but isn't a top priority for his force
> 
> ...



I think that either Bill Blair is scared of those hippy protester members of the Police Services Board or just isn't a good enough police officer to see the value of a piece of kit like that and the tremendous benefit that it would be to the TPS as a tool of law enforcement. 

Pam McConnel, as we all know, is quite the 'expert' (in her own mind at least) when it comes to what she thinks the police should be doing.

Someone aught to ask her what year she graduated from OPC!

L.A. has roughly 12 in the air at any one time and another 28 that they can call on if required. I wonder if the Los Angeles police dept would think that police helicopters aren't required kit for policing? 

In Canada York, Durham, Calgary, Edmonton, the RCMP, OPP, Surete Du Quebec, Winnipeg all use choppers. There may be more communities that the ones on this list that do as well that I don't know about.

Toronto is the 5th larest city in North America. Why don't we have police helicopters?

Slim


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## muskrat89 (17 Nov 2005)

Phoenix PD has 7. http://www.phoenix.gov/police/airsup2.html#Unit

The smaller municipalities and Sheriff's Departments around here also have some...

Toronto doesn't have any?  ???


Edited to add:

Maricopa County has 4 choppers and 2 fixed wing aircraft    http://www.mcso.org/submenu.asp?file=Aviation


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## Bruce Monkhouse (17 Nov 2005)

Slim,
Listening to CBC on the way home this morning and I almost drove off the road laughing at the women who is spearheading some "co-alition" to keep toronto from getting one.
She was saying during the trial period last year she couldn't sleep, was nervous and stressed all the time knowing it was overhead somewhere.

Gee, I guess having one of the busiest airports in the world is no problem though......putz.


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## x-grunt (17 Nov 2005)

To be fair, I didn't see Blair say no, just that the priority of the TPS is face to face policing. He hadn't seen the proposal yet, either. 

I think it would be a valuable asset, but then again I'm not a policing expert. I do know that T.O has one of the lowest crime rates (that's including the highly publicized gang shootings this year) of any Canadian city - waaaay better then the average US city which is maybe why L.A. needs squadrons of helos and we don't think it a big deal up here.

Nonetheless, it's a free machine, so why not grab it? I imagine there will be some expenses though.



> women who is spearheading some "co-alition" to keep toronto from getting one



Bizarre. Some people will protest anything, just to be anti-something.


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## Slim (17 Nov 2005)

> women who is spearheading some "co-alition" to keep toronto from getting one



In Durham (where I live) some group of anti-everythings tried the same thing with the cops and the regional council...They got told where to go and how to get there!


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## FormerHorseGuard (18 Nov 2005)

I think it would be a great thing for the Toronto Police Services to get  their own helicopter,  I know the cost is high and the no brainers who see it as the end of the world because it invades thier privacy need to realize it is not there to spy  or make life difficult for them. it is a tool like anything else a police officers has to use. weapons, flashlight, night stick, radio, vest, uniform and car.  a helicopter might even help rescue one of these no helicopter people when they need the help. 

cons, the cost of it, noise and needing more then one to cover down time of the first one

pros, fast response time, extra set of eyes on a car chase, raids,  SAR, updating the Police service with latest equipment, makes them look like more then a small city  force,  good way  to watch crowds during public events,  takes police off the hiways and puts them on the street.
lots of reason for the use, fewer reasons not to have one


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## Slim (18 Nov 2005)

...Not to mention that the 15 news choppers that fly around all the time don't seem to be overly bothersome to anyone...?! 

Kind of puts a big fat hole in their BS arguement, doesn't it...


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## Fishbone Jones (18 Nov 2005)

The noise thing is crap. I've been staying at the Delta Chelsea for half of the last year. Helos are coming and going from the hospitals next door 24 hrs a day. I got used to them in the first wek and don't even hear them when they fly by my windows. Anyone who has lived on a Base with a Tac Hel Sqn knows the same thing.


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## TCBF (18 Nov 2005)

"I've been staying at the Delta Chelsea for half of the last year."

- My my, hardly slumming it are we?  Ive been living in Bldg 18 in Wainwright, and I think they just painted over where a German POW wrote his initials (in gothic letters, natch.) on my wall.

 ;D

Tom


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## Fishbone Jones (18 Nov 2005)

What can I say Tom. The Gov't only wants the best for me and to keep me happy


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## Zoomie (18 Nov 2005)

The Comox Valley RCMP detachment has a Bell Longranger chopper - we have a population of about 60,000 people total (between 1 city and 2 towns).  Halloween is tonnes of fun - the spotlight comes on and the rotorheads fly about looking for hooligans.

On a serious note, flying around Toronto would be a serious problem for a helicopter on a chase.  Could you imagine the ATC nightmare that would ensure...  ATC would not be inclined to divert a commercial airliner simply for a police chase.


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## Strike (18 Nov 2005)

> On a serious note, flying around Toronto would be a serious problem for a helicopter on a chase.  Could you imagine the ATC nightmare that would ensure...  ATC would not be inclined to divert a commercial airliner simply for a police chase.



NY and LA don't seem to have a problem with it.

The whole reason TO decided not to go with the choppers after their (extremely successful) trial was because of the amounts of noise complaints and people going on about how it was an invasion of their privacy.  I guess some people got it in their heads that the FLIR could see through walls.

As for something like this being funded by the private sector -- Kingston's K9 unit it funded this way.


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## Cyr (18 Nov 2005)

As for the noise complaint that these choppers make, I would say have you actually ever heard what these chopper sound like copaired to a jet liner, traffic or police or ambulance seirens? Well if you do the research you will find that these choppers are actually quite quiet when put into comparison with the above. Just a thought that I had I should share.

Cyr


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## Slim (18 Nov 2005)

> *Miller chopper stopper?*
> 
> Mayor not for helicopter
> 
> ...



What a load of crap! Bandage One, the EMS chopper based out of Toronto Island, is a huge jet turbine powered aircraft that's about 3 times as large as a Bell Longranger and is also quite loud (comparable to a BlackHawk)

There is some sort of negative perception in this city about giving the police the tools required to do the job.

There was a serious shooting in the city today. The police may have been able to aprehend the culprits if they had had air!

Slim


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## Taylor187 (18 Nov 2005)

Toronto is a liberal pit, and the liberals put a negative spin on anything aggresive looking. A Helo is aggresive looking to most people, so the sheep follow the idea.

The noise complaints are idiotic, I live in the durham region and I hear low flying choppers constantly. The police chopper is always looking for maryjane fields around my house. Hell I used to live at the corner of Clements/Harwood in Ajax where the hospital helipad was a few hundred feet from my house and there was never once was noise complaint from the neighborhoods.

Miller just wants to keep the sheeps happy so he can get elected again and hoist his mighty broom. Give me back the Bad-Boy's ol'coot anyday.


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## noneck (18 Nov 2005)

Abbotsford Police Department from out here in the Fraser Valley of BC has a chopper on regular patrol as well as on call 24/7. It's owned by a former part time paramedic who sold a private  business for a huge sum and now likes to play part time cop with the Abbie PD. The chopper is all marked up in police colours and the police merely provider a sworn member as the Tactical Observer/System Operator and pay for the fuel. They recently were first on scene for a helo crash up in the mountains and reached the scene before the SAR Techs parachuted in.


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## MPIKE (19 Nov 2005)

A good link on the subject matter.
http://www.alea.org/public/pics/index.htm

A pic of AIR 2.. (Slim you'll find Air1 on same site)
http://www.alea.org/public/pics/york_regional_police.htm



> The noise complaints are idiotic


and yes it is.  
This same idiot mindset originally rendered the decision against the use of FLIR probably because that judge used the movie Blue Thunder as a reference.  Thankfully that was successfully appealed..


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## Slim (19 Nov 2005)

PIKER said:
			
		

> A good link on the subject matter.
> http://www.alea.org/public/pics/index.htm
> 
> A pic of AIR 2.. (Slim you'll find Air1 on same site)
> ...



You've got to be kidding!

As for Air1...I usually know where it is...Over my house! ( i live underneathe the flight path into Oshawa Regional) ;D


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## MPIKE (19 Nov 2005)

> You've got to be kidding!


lol I didn't have emoticon for sarcasm re: Blue thunder. ( a great movie though ;D)

If you have a whole lot of time on your hands read through a copy of the case law--TESSLING V. The Queen.  It was a very frustrating period for Air support.


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## yoman (17 Dec 2005)

Toronto doesn't have any police aircraft at all? 

That's interesting seeing as Ottawa has a Cessna equipped with FLIR available. Interesting on how things work in different cities.

PS: The Ottawa plane is very well equipped.


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## Slim (18 Dec 2005)

yoman said:
			
		

> Toronto doesn't have any police aircraft at all?
> 
> That's interesting seeing as Ottawa has a Cessna equipped with FLIR available. Interesting on how things work in different cities.
> 
> PS: The Ottawa plane is very well equipped.



Their intelligence unit has an old airplane of some type...Unless that's been taken awy as well.


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## Good2Golf (23 Dec 2005)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> The Comox Valley RCMP detachment has a Bell Longranger chopper - we have a population of about 60,000 people total (between 1 city and 2 towns).  Halloween is tonnes of fun - the spotlight comes on and the rotorheads fly about looking for hooligans.
> 
> On a serious note, flying around Toronto would be a serious problem for a helicopter on a chase.  Could you imagine the ATC nightmare that would ensure...  ATC would not be inclined to divert a commercial airliner simply for a police chase.



Actually, Zip, choppers integrate into YYZ/YTZ ATC services very well.  I've worked operations where we sent a LNO right to the IFRCC (ran in to an ex-Tac Hel bud controller to boot!) and things ran extremely well.  Ops included transit in and around Pearson, under flight paths, around down town, etc... no problems at all!

I can't believe how much some people firmly have their heads up their respective a$$es!  

What?  So some people would rather see a whole slew of cruisers chasing a fleeing motorist than following him in a chopper and taking him down in a location that is far safer for the public???  Shake your heads, complainers!  Dag nab it...such stupidity really, REALLY gets to me!

I've heard some of the stupidest, most unfounded complaints about helos...."they broke my windows", "it broke my alarm clock", etc... the list goes on... :

Duey


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## Slim (23 Dec 2005)

They are all FOS without a doubt!

The one we have in Durham has done so much good!


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## zipperhead_cop (26 Dec 2005)

One of the main reasons for the choppers is to better continue suspect apprehension pursuits.  What you don't see is that when the dinks get caught, after they have driven on sidewalks and into oncoming traffic to cause an accident which the pursuing officers will either get involved in or stop to help, they go to jail for a single night.  If they don't have a huge record or multiple ongoing charges, they get cut loose on a recognizance from a judge who says "promise me you wont steal cars anymore, son".  And the bag nods his head solemnly, signs the recog and is out the next morning.  When it gets to court, he can plead guilty and get a whopping ONE YEAR PROBATION!! OMG!!  Most judges have a "kids will be kids" attitude towards car theft, which they actually still call "joy riding" in some cases.  And if you look at some of the recent incidents in the GTA where officers involved in a pursuit were charged with Criminal Negligence because the bad guy caused an accident, it just isn't worth it.  If there is a chopper shining a light on one of these tools as they careen along then they will just keep going until they brew someone up.  If there was any real penalty for it, I would be the first one to keep after them and pin them down.  As it is, at least in southern Ontario, it basically is not against the law to steal cars.  Just make sure you steal a crappy one that is worth less than $5000, and it's the same charge as shoplifting.  
So the Chief of Toronto (and I am not defending him at all BTW) is probably thinking that it isn't worth the time and expense, until sentencing of car thieves is made more harsh.  
I imagine that these smaller mentioned services have some sort of safety/rescue angle to justify the expense of aircraft.  Toronto is too urban to try that tact and besides, everyone knows that only firefighters save lives. ;D


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## Slim (29 Dec 2005)

Air 1 Durham Regional Police Service

http://www.police.durham.on.ca/internet_explorer/whatsnew/whatsnew_view.asp?ID=823


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## gate_guard (29 Dec 2005)

I think that choppers can be a useful tool for police. They can respond a lot quicker than cars provide a police presence within minutes of receiving a call. Think of the examples given off the Durham site. The deterrence element of policing is multiplied with the use of choppers. With regards to pursuits, having a chopper is the safest way to keep tabs on a stolen vehicle, avoid a pursuit that could potentially kill an officer or citizen, and actually recover the car without having it damaged or written off.


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## Good2Golf (30 Dec 2005)

A good friend of mine flies HAWC-1 in Calgary...that some folks in T.O. can see the value of the capability is amazing...especially (although I know how some of the politics there works) coming from people on the Police Services Board.

Cheers,
Duey


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## Bert (30 Dec 2005)

I think Duey is going to be watching old re-runs of Air Wolf and Blue Thunder over holidays.


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## Good2Golf (30 Dec 2005)

Bert said:
			
		

> I think Duey is going to be watching old re-runs of Air Wolf and Blue Thunder over holidays.



Hey Bert, I had "whisper mode" in the Huey...just never turned it on!  ;D

Cheers,
Duey


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## zipperhead_cop (31 Dec 2005)

gate_guard said:
			
		

> I think that choppers can be a useful tool for police. They can respond a lot quicker than cars provide a police presence within minutes of receiving a call. Think of the examples given off the Durham site. The deterrence element of policing is multiplied with the use of choppers. With regards to pursuits, having a chopper is the safest way to keep tabs on a stolen vehicle, avoid a pursuit that could potentially kill an officer or citizen, and actually recover the car without having it damaged or written off.


Those examples on the Durham site, they didn't land to offer assistance, did they?  Just curious.  If they could, that would be a great response time.  
If you are worried about the car being recovered with little damage, then just don't try to stop them at all.  The rats only drive them for a short time so they wont be on file as stolen, and 95% of the time they only have ignition column damage ($150+-).  They usually turn up within a day, sometimes within hours, of when they were taken.  As previously mentioned, there is no penalty for car theft until after around your fifth conviction.


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## 3rd Herd (19 Jan 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> The rats only drive them for a short time so they wont be on file as stolen, and 95% of the time they only have ignition column damage ($150+-).  They usually turn up within a day, sometimes within hours, of when they were taken.  As previously mentioned, there is no penalty for car theft until after around your fifth conviction.



Zipperhead,

You right with they only drive them for a short while and that there is no have penalty. First hand experience this summer resulted in something no one of enjoys "NOK notifications". Two of Vancouver's more illustriously car theifs stole a car in Burnaby drove it out to the ferry terminals and dumped it. Once in Nanimo they 'borrowed' a van and drove across the island. Their journey to the wild west coast ended with them driving head on into my work truck night shift. Two retired members of the CF out of commission, one out for three months the other for two years. One of these short time users was arrested at the scene, the other fled later caught trying to 'borrow' a third vehicle. Both involved had according to the papers extensive prior records.

Now having said that I watch with extreme glee the success of the 'bait car' program being run out here on the coast. It is kind of hard to argue the circumstance surrounding possession of a vechicle not yours, in front of a judge with all the wonderful video feed from the inside of the bait car. I have seen some stats to indicate that it is one of the main reasons for the decrease in auto theft out here. But having said that yes sentencing is to lax for repeat offenders. Every once in a while you will get a full page add of the top ten Vancouver area canedates. Which thanks to some fine citizens in Vancouver usually are found very quickly in most case in possession of a newly borrowed vehicle.

Now back to the matter at hand, the police and helicopters. Victoria area I believe and this may have changed recently gets chopper coverage from RCMP choppers out Vancouver. And Duey you are going to hate this, one is piloted by an x long time PPCLI W.O. (we're infiltrating everywhere). Now as we all know the Queens Cowboys are as strapped for cash as every one else and there was a plan to reduce flying time out of Vancouver. Power of the people struck and the idea was quickly revisited. Out here helo duties seem to range from missing person searches to cruising the skies looking for BC plantations. Additionally, we had 26 helo involved rescues on the wild west coast by August this year. If Tacoking and his buddies would stop throwing live bodies out of their antiques fishing in a certain lake would be better. Mind you it has become quite a spectator sport.

In closing having grown up in the TO area this news item just gives me another reason for staying on this side of the rockies.

Choo


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## Good2Golf (20 Jan 2006)

#rd Herd...no problem, if an observer, he probably had a chunk of Kiowa stick time!   Plus, he'd know his way around Workpoint! LOL

On thread, I find it amazing that such a proven capability to increasing policing effectiveness and reducing injuries associated with pursuit would be a hemming and hawing, "well, we don't think it's really needed"... :

Cheers,
Duey


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## Slim (20 Jan 2006)

Duey said:
			
		

> On thread, I find it amazing that such a proven capability to increasing policing effectiveness and reducing injuries associated with pursuit would be a hemming and hawing, "well, we don't think it's really needed"... :



Its all political. Yet another good reason to break the hold that the Liberals have on this country.


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## SeaKingTacco (5 Feb 2006)

> If Tacoking and his buddies would stop throwing live bodies out of their antiques fishing in a certain lake would be better. Mind you it has become quite a spectator sport.



I gotta ask, Man- what lake is this?  The only "live bodies" I have ever chucked out of a Sea King have landed in either:

a) the Pacific Ocean
b) Morris Lake, behind Shearwater.

This maybe a new development since I left the "Best" Coast, this summer...


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## 3rd Herd (5 Feb 2006)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> I gotta ask, Man- what lake is this?  The only "live bodies" I have ever chucked out of a Sea King have landed in either:
> 
> a) the Pacific Ocean
> b) Morris Lake, behind Shearwater.
> ...



To avoid some unwarranted criticism of the Seaking and friends of mine. I will answer with what is in the public domain. The boys in Pat Bay have used both Shawnigan and Cowhichan very recently and given it's public success will be doing so again. In an interview on Check 6, Can West Global the change from the Pacific Ocean to the lakes was due to the corrosive effect of sea water and related maintenance time. In addition there was a short flying time allowing for more actual training than movement to and from the training area. There are some quite nice pictures in the Times Colonists archives of the Seakings sitting on the lakes and hovering just above the lakes. Also Seaking Taco, Check 6 off of Blandshard St. is very good about giving a copy of their coverage on video to interested parties takes about thirty days to process. Now I got to ask, Pacific Ocean off Long Beach or off Albert Head area? I know Long Beach is a favorite dz for Comox, but we had the occasional King around too.


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## geo (5 Feb 2006)

FWIW, The SQ had some noisy helicopters.
Over time, as they were replaced, they got newer ones that make much less noise.
Noise is not & should not be an issue.

Muskrat - loved the link to Maricopa.....
Detention facility can boast of 1200 convicts in tents;
costs of under 45¢/meal/inmate; 
women in tents & on chain gangs 
a volunteer posse of 3200 men and women,

I love it!
Good on ya!


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## SeaKingTacco (5 Feb 2006)

> There are some quite nice pictures in the Times Colonists archives of the Seakings sitting on the lakes and hovering just above the lakes.



Ahhh- now this makes sense.  In the winter of 2004, after Aircraft 401 rolled over on HMCS IROQUOIS and we spent several months not being allowed to hover, we had to rebuild our skills at water landings- an emergency procedure for us. Each Sea King pilot must yearly undergo "waterbird" training at Morris Lake, behind Shearwater.  This was not possible at that time because Morris Lake was frozen.  We then decided to use Shawnigan Lake.  It is a Transport Canada registered aerodrome, for the purposes of amphibious aircraft.  Water samples were taken before, during and after the training, which ran for about three weeks, in which time about 75 pilots requalified on water landings.  No pollution was detected.  Nobody jumped out of the aircraft into the lake- trust me.  That said, some of the locals have a deep and abiding dislike and distrust of the military and made sure they phoned the mdeia daily to complain about the "harassment" they were receiving from us.  Don't believe everything you see on TV about the military, particularly if a Sea King is involved.  Most of it is just wrong.

Cowichan Lake was considered, but it was a longer drive for our safety divers to go each day from FDU, so was never used.  I understand the Labs used to use Comox Lake for the same sort of training.

We generally do diver deployment training for FDU right in front of the Spit at Esquimalt Lagoon.  It is great fun!

I apologise deeply for the thread hijack.  Back to your regularly scheduled thread...


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## HDE (12 Feb 2006)

Hi Guys!

  A Toronto radio station 640 AM now has a couple of OPP members up doing traffic reports in their helicopter.  Apparently it can be called upon to assist in the event of an "emergency".  Sort of a police helicopter via the back door ;D


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## geo (12 Feb 2006)

so long as the balance of Ontario Taxpayers are sharing 

To be honest, I believe that Montreal has similar deal with the SQ
the SPM (montreal police) have one old (noisy) helicopter that has more terrain to cover than can reasonnably be expected to cover... 

would imagine that the provincial police must bill for missions that are called in by the local authorities.


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