# New Maritime Intelligence Trade:  Reg Force Transferable?



## bbereziuk (11 Dec 2004)

The members of this site have really given some good advice regarding recruitement and reserve to reg force transfers... Does anyone have some input for this question?:

I've been in the Naval Reserves for about two and a half years.  I joined as a R86 Naval Control of Shipping officer that has recently been remustered to R82, which is intelligence.  The training is the same, except it consists of one extra summer where we will be given BIOC (Basic Intel Officer Course), in Quebec City.

Apparently, the course is designed to be directly transferable to the reg force version in Kingston, and I'll be on that course this summer.

My question is this:  I've heard of a few reserve guys transfering to reg force intelligence.. is this a possibility for me?  Can anyone advise me on what the reg force is looking for regarding new int. officers?  I've also heard that 5 years operational experience WAS required before, and that this has been dropped...

Some insight anyone?


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## chaos75 (23 Dec 2004)

If you want to know more on the transfer of NCS R86 to Sea Int R82, check out the recent message on it.  You can find it by doing a search on the Margen Server or on the National portal.  As for switching over to Reg Force Int, there is always a chance to change over, but the recruiting center is the only place to get those questions answered.  They have the answers, but I can tell you that right now they are short on Army Int Officers, so you may have a good chance if your willing to go green.  Good Luck.


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## bbereziuk (29 Dec 2004)

Thanks for the tip.  I'm going to submit the transfer this month.. and I certainly would have no complaints if I was offered army int.

Cheers & Happy New Year.


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## P Kaye (4 Jan 2005)

Naval Int and army intelligence are two completely different trades.   I was going to transfer to NavRes and do Reserve Naval int if the courses had been offered in mods (unlike the army reserve, the navy makes you take whole summers away).
I also looked into army int.  
Transferring from Naval int to Army int, and vice versa, is sort of like transferring from Pilot to MARS.  The trades have very little in common, except the name.  Naval int is mostly NCAGS in practice.  It's lots of lots of looking at maps and stuff.  Army int is a field job, and in many ways has more in common with infantry than it does with naval int.
Some people are attracted to "int" trades because of hte association with something pseudo-james-bondish, but that of course is nothing like the reality.  Be sure to talk to a few people in the trades you're considering, to get a more accurate picture of what the job is really like.  The descriptions on the CF website are made to sell you on the glamour of the whole thing, which rarely exists in practise.


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## bbereziuk (19 Feb 2006)

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one...

Both Army Int officers and Navy Int officers take the same course to become MOC qualified.  In fact.. they both have the same MOC... which is 82.  The old Navy trade NCAGS used to be MOC - 86.  Yes.. Navy int. officers still get the same training as the old NCAGS officers, but that is accomplished the summer before the Basic Intelligence Officer Course (BIOC).  All three elements complete joint intelligence training, allowing officers to work in a joint-operational environment.  The difference between trades is the eight weeks of element-specific intelligence training that happens after the joint phase.  In this phase, Navy officers focus on issues and analytical skills that tend to be more helpful when advising senior naval officers, Army guys focus on land-force issues, and Air-force... well, you get the picture.

The only difference between the training of a Naval-reserve intelligence officer and a reg-force int. officer is that the reg. force guys all have common army phase, and tend to have experience in combat arms trades prior to their entry to the Int. Branch.  It IS a big difference, and means that reserve int. officers tend to only do work at the basic analyst level, or in a headquarters setting...  though the Navy is starting to exercise reserve Navy-Int. officers at sea.. the hope is that there will be at least one Maritime Int. officer aboard a frigate whenever they are at sea.  This is not yet a reality though.  Naval Rerserve Int. officers CAN transfer to the reg. force.. into the air, army or navy element as long as there is a position available AND the reservist has 1090 days of class B (or equivalent) service.

I assure you that my interest in the int. branch is a bit beyond the James Bond allure..


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## 30 for 30 (20 Feb 2006)

Interesting. Zook, with respect to the Class B time needed to transfer to Reg Force Int, assuming one year of time is completed after three summers of full time training, how would one make up the other two years of class B needed in good time? Would this be tough to obtain, or does a fully-trained NavRes Int Officer have decent full time opportunities, either at sea or somewhere like Athena or Trinity? Realistically, would that two more years of Class B take four or five years to obtain? Thanks for any assistance.


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## bbereziuk (20 Feb 2006)

This is a tough question to answer.  So I'll make the response long and convoluted:

- I personally haven't done any long-term class-B contracts as an Int-O.  This is because I completed my training last summer, and am finishing up school.  I know the transfer requirements because I've just gone through the CT square dance with regard to CTing to the reg. force.  As you rightly suspected, I don't have the Class-B requirements to transfer into the int. branch... as a result, I have both an AVREP in for long-term class B as an RES INT SEA officer and a CT file ready to be reviewed in April for the reg force Armour Corps (my second reg-force choice).

- Based on what I've seen... not a single one of my colleagues from last summer were turned down for class-B work when they wanted it.  The contracts were offered on a 6-month basis.  Everyone that took a 6-month contract received an extention for a year or longer once it expired.  The contracts were located in Trinity and Athena, Quebec city (CF Fleet School Quebec) and Ottawa.  The work in Trinity and Athena is operations room work.  It has a significant intelligence spin to it, but it is still very merchant-ship (NCAGS) oriented (I say this not to undermine it.. the NCAGS stuff is a pretty valuable military requirement and the guys on the coast can get a chance to work pretty closely with police, coast guard, and CSIS... they occasionally do work on some pretty murky stuff).  From what I understand, taking Trinity and Athena combined there are about 15 to 20 spots available for reservists, and they haven't been able to fill them.  We do however, train 20 new officers per year, and I'm not sure how quickly the new trainees are meeting demand, or if there are plans to expand.  In this regard, for more information it is probably best to email CFFSQ or a Naval reserve unit, and they'll put you in touch with the people that can give you a more quantifyable answer.  Or.. in fact, email me directly and I'll pass you along.. (bereziuk@rmc.ca)

- The real interesting stuff is what is opening up in Ottawa.  Without getting into too much detail (mostly because I don't know the specific details...) there is a demand up there that is not getting met...  as a result they are taking a keen interest in picking up RES INT SEA guys where they can. - The sentiment from my unit has been that there is 'plenty of work up there if you want it'.  Again, I can't quantify just how much at this moment...  Ottawa is in a state of flux due to the building of CANCOM.  I'm hoping to see some action from them soon.

- On the flip side:  I personally yet to receive a contract offer from the int. community.  For me, no offer means that I go Armour come April (you can't wait forever for these things).  And I DO KNOW (unfortunately) that there are currently no reg. force Naval Intelligence billets left... which means that should a RES INT SEA member transfer to the regs.... they will have to retrain the last 8 weeks of their BIOC to get the Army or Air component (both these areas currently have a high-demand for new int-Os).  However, just like anything else, more Naval-Int spots could open up over the next year or so... I guess its just dumb luck when the member decides to CT.  When getting to the reg. force, regardless of element, the member will have to take CAP so that they can become deployable.

- I'll have a much better feel of what is actually out there by about mid-April... I'll keep you posted as to what actually comes up when go-time arrives.  I think I'm just as curious as you are at this point...


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## 30 for 30 (20 Feb 2006)

Zook: great info, thanks. I will email you.


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## tree hugger (26 Jan 2007)

Has anyone taken BIOC or the Sea course recently?  Have they or will they be breaking these up in mods or through DL?  I'd be interested in this trade if I knew that I would be able to get training done without taking an extended leave from my job.


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## chaos75 (26 Jan 2007)

Currently the BIOC is intended to be run three times a year thru CFSMI.  The Winter and Fall courses being primarily Reg heavy with a couple of reservists depending on availability.  The summer course would be reserve heavy with the odd reg force student.  There will also still be some training available thru Que as well.

The new standard is for Reg and Res to have the same course, same quals, so no more shortened reserve course.  There is a DL phase, which is phase one, and phase two is the residential phase in Kingston, still three months.  This is currently the only way to attend BIOC trg at this time.


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## tree hugger (26 Jan 2007)

Does the BIOC involve any ruck marches?


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## chaos75 (26 Jan 2007)

The course is so short on time with so much packed in, there is no time for anything but classes.  PT is on your own time.  The course (depending on individual learning habits/abilities) will be extremely demanding at some times, and others not so much.  For those who attend the experience is different for each person, and the course is designed solely around learning about the subject matter.  How you spend your off time is your business.

As always they are ever discussing increasing the course length, which would likely see the return of organized PT.


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## tree hugger (26 Jan 2007)

Not that I don't enjoy a good ruck march, but I'm no longer allowed.

BIOC is 3 mo.?


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## George Wallace (26 Jan 2007)

tree hugger said:
			
		

> Not that I don't enjoy a good ruck march, but I'm no longer allowed.



You may want to have a close look at the new Physical Fitness STANDARD that has come out in the latest CANFORGEN.


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## tree hugger (26 Jan 2007)

It doesn't breach UofS.  I'm fine, it's a long story.  Thanks though.


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## chaos75 (26 Jan 2007)

Yes course is about 12 weeks.  Best bet is to get onto the DIN site (CFSMI), read the course description, JI, study material etc.


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## tree hugger (9 Feb 2007)

Do they have a "live out" option?


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## tree hugger (14 Mar 2007)

For BIOC, and the navy int portion is it shacks only?  Or can you get an apartment?


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## alvin__53 (15 Mar 2007)

i'am asking myself the same thing. i am already here in kingston at RMC and i will be living out for my last years of study so ill already will be in apartement. anyway i guess ill will be able to ask around on our MOC weekend.


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## tree hugger (16 Mar 2007)

Well, when you know something let me know and I'll do the same.

I actually have a special skill when it comes to stalking people on outlook.  I managed to find a BIOC instructor at CFFSQ, so I sent him an email with a few questions.  I'm not one to sit by and not take action.  Hopefully he's cool and can pass on some info.  

I was originally interested in this trade (well the old NCS trade technically), but when I joined they were only offering MARS.  My worry is that I would have a hard time taking long chunks of time to get the training done.  If it was in mods and DL, it would be much, much easier.


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## aesop081 (16 Mar 2007)

tree hugger said:
			
		

> If it was in mods and DL, it would be much, much easier.



Learning how to drive a ship by DL, now that would be something  ;D


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## tree hugger (16 Mar 2007)

They could incorporate Wii.  Make it a game...


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## alvin__53 (24 Mar 2007)

hello again,
just came back from my MOC weekend briefing on Intel and it was amazing, we had the chance to talk with the commandant of the Intel school, Maj Armstrong and had a presentation from Col Rousseau. has i understand, and they stated, it is a perfect time to enrol in the Intel branch. they expect to double the force. they emphasised on the fact that Intel is a joint branch so it does not make any different has for the element you are in
they are actually changing all the standarts for the course and are not shire what it is going to look like in a few years. for now it is 3 months plus some distance learning prior going to bioc. i talk to Capt Moore, an instructor, and he told me that they are looking forward to make it a six months course again. also for the shacks question he said that if you find arrangements in kingston to live in apartment or something there will be no problem he actually said that some people pair up to get their own pmq's. 
all in all it was very interesting. i now know what awaits me for the almost 10-15 years


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## tree hugger (19 Jun 2007)

I've just heard some reliable rumblings that there may be changes to course formats coming up for reservists... MTF


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## Greymatters (19 Jun 2007)

chaos75 said:
			
		

> If you want to know more on the transfer of NCS R86 to Sea Int R82, check out the recent message on it.  You can find it by doing a search on the Margen Server or on the National portal.  As for switching over to Reg Force Int, there is always a chance to change over, but the recruiting center is the only place to get those questions answered.  They have the answers, but I can tell you that right now they are short on Army Int Officers, so you may have a good chance if your willing to go green.  Good Luck.



Hate to disagree but the best place to go to is your nearest Reg force Int office.  Find a Captain, PO2 or WO and ask your questions.  If they think you've got what the trade is looking for they can help point you in the right direction.


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