# Ballistic Vests on Paramedics?



## BadEnoughDudeRescueRonny (13 Sep 2011)

I recall a few years ago while working as an Emerge Aide I saw a Paramedic wearing a ballistic vest. It was completely unexpected. So I asked him "Is that a ballistic vest?" he says it is. I thought to myself "Who would want to shoot a Paramedic"?! Ballistic vests amongst Paramedics became a lot more common in this area too.

Is this common practice for Paramedics to wear ballistic vests?


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## medic_man17 (13 Sep 2011)

In my experience, it depends upon the local regulations with whatever service is operating in the area.  Being with the uncertainty of any situation a paramedic may enter into, it is becoming more of an issue that they may enter into a location where a ballistic vest may in fact save their life, especially with gun violence becoming increasingly (albeit disconcertingly) more common in society.  

I have worked with Regina EMS where the SOP with the service is that every paramedic is issued a personally fitted ballistic vest and as such, no paramedic will leave the station without donning a ballistic vest regardless of the nature of the call.  I also know many individuals whom work with Winnipeg EMS who have told me that the decision to wear a ballistic vest is of their personal preference, however is not mandatory.  I'm not sure about any other services, but these are two different operations examples WRT to the wearing of vests by paramedics in the field.


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## mariomike (13 Sep 2011)

There are no EMTs in Ontario. In Toronto, only Tactical Paramedics are issued body armour:
http://www.torontoems.ca/main-site/service/etf.html

It has been discussed many times. But, when management points out ( as in the post above: "no paramedic will leave the station without donning a ballistic vest regardless of the nature of the call" ) that they would have to be worn on all calls, the enthusiasm for them dies down.

One thing seldom mentioned. Anyone who has ever worked the patient compartment of an ambulance knows there is a risk of being thrown around. Seat-belts, due to patient care, are not always worn in the back. A vest - and even a crash helmet - would come in handy in the event of sudden braking.:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0UPLbxx4Bc


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## medicineman (13 Sep 2011)

I don't see what your issue is - lots of urban services have advanced life support units which, depending on local standing orders, carry drugs of abuse on board or directly on one of the paramedics.  If I were working somewhere like Winnipeg, Regina, parts of Toronto, Vancouver, etc, damned sure I'd be looking around for something if they weren't providing it - and especially now that alot of services are going to the midnight blue uniforms so you look even more like cops again.  You gotta look out for number one.

Something else you have to remember - even though sometimes things look a little chaotic in the ER, things are considerably less controlled on the streets than in there.  Having worked on both sides of the doors, it's amazing some of the comments nurses or even docs fling at paramedics about why this wasn't done, or why that was done, simply because they really have no concept of how screwed up things can get or what concurrent activity might have been going on at the time (fire, flood, shooting, cracked out wack job, etc).  If you want a real eye opener, see if you can get some ride out time as an observer with an inner city EMS crew.

MM


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## Sheerin (17 Sep 2011)

i agree with mario, the moment management states they must be worn it will result in a backlash, just like when cops were forced to wear them 20+ years ago.  

Personally, there are some calls where I would like to have it and many where it really wasn't necessary.  The unfortunate thing is it will probably become mandatory after a medic is killed.  Though I must admit as a medic I am more likely to be assaulted with a knife, blunt objects or hands/feet than I am to be shot.


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## klink1983 (29 Sep 2011)

Saw it when I was on HLTA in Australia...S.A. as well as in N.S.W. In my home town (GTA) area, sisters boyfriend is a paramedic and wears one of the "under the shirts" vests (pardon my probable bastardization of terminology). 

I have also heard (50.50 if it is true or not) that some Detroit firefighters carry pistols....I restate...this is just something I heard, do not know how true it is.


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## mariomike (29 Sep 2011)

They gave us vests to try on at a CME ( Continuing Medical Education ). I had it on for five minutes and loathed every minute of it. It was very uncomfortable, and looked confrontational. 
That's just my personal opinion. Not everyone felt that way. I see a lot of the younger guys wearing them now.


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## Thompson_JM (30 Sep 2011)

I have a few friends on with Hamilton, and some feel similar to what is stated earlier about the risk of looking similar to the Police, going into the same kind of "Hot calls" etc... as well as the potential for things to go sideways.... 

I dont know if an external carrier (aka outside vest) would help with looking any different, however I would imagine there would be large lettering on it saying something like EMS to clear up any confusion... 

The easiest way to avoid that would be to allow them to wear internal carriers (under the shirt) as they are also a bit more flexible, and comfortable to wear... only downside is that they are also warmer as less air can get in, and you cant open the sides while you're sitting in the rig to let in some ventilation... 



			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> They gave us vests to try on at a CME ( Continuing Medical Education ). I had it on for five minutes and loathed every minute of it. It was very uncomfortable, and looked confrontational.
> That's just my personal opinion. Not everyone felt that way. I see a lot of the younger guys wearing them now.



Were you wearing an internal or external? I've worn both, and see pros and cons to each...


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## Journeyman (30 Sep 2011)

Disclosure -- I have no dog in this fight. 

Based on having worked with Paramedics and having known EMTs quite well [varying provinces], I gather that they're cursed with the same risk aversion as the CF (for those in doubt, check the DSafeG website  : ). The ambulance folks though are further encumbered by unions, whose key personnel are paid to 'care' about each and every worst case scenario that their lawyers could dream up.

Do they need vests? In some areas, possibly. If they need them in the ugliest parts of Toronto, Windsor, etc. though, then _clearly_, the Moose Jaw St John's First Aid guy must need one too...plus the same insurance premiums!   :


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## lethalLemon (30 Sep 2011)

mariomike said:
			
		

> There are no EMTs in Ontario.
> 
> *filler*



Is this an error? Pretty sure every province has EMTs A.K.A. Paramedics

 : Oh, _sorry_ you call them A-EMCA, or Advanced Emergency Medical Care Assistants...  :


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## medic_man17 (30 Sep 2011)

Having worn both the internal and external carriers, I agree that there are pros and cons to both.  But knowing that the vest I wore was slash-proof, bullet-resistant (althought not stab-proof), I felt it gave me a bit security to do my job, even in the more rougher parts of town.


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## mariomike (30 Sep 2011)

lethalLemon said:
			
		

> Is this an error? Pretty sure every province has EMTs A.K.A. Paramedics
> 
> : Oh, _sorry_ you call them A-EMCA, or Advanced Emergency Medical Care Assistants...  :



"Though the title of paramedic is a generic description of a category of practitioners, provincial variability in regulatory methods accounts for ongoing differences in actual titles that are ascribed to different levels of practitioners." 
For example, Alberta uses the title EMT. But EMT in that province has  two different meanings: Emergency Medical Technician (EMT), and Emergency Medical Technologist-Paramedic (EMT-P).
This variability in regulatory methods also results in limited inter-provincial labour mobility.

Ontario credentials its practitioners with the title of AEMCA - which is required to work at any level in the province. AEMCA is the same credential used by CFHS: "...all QL5 Med Techs are encouraged to prepare for and write this exam...".

Ref:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramedics_in_Canada#Provincial_variation_on_the_NOCP




			
				Tommy said:
			
		

> Were you wearing an internal or external? I've worn both, and see pros and cons to each...



External. I don't know why they selected that type, but an obvious advantage would be that it can be quickly removed when not needed. eg: When treating and extricating patients in motor vehicle collisions, drownings, or very hot confined spaces.

I don't think much has changed since this came out:
"Protective Vests:
Prior to the initial submission of the Capital Works Program protective vests for paramedics had been considered for inclusion, however, following discussion with the Ambulance Services' Joint Occupational Health & Safety Committee, the decision was made to defer this item to allow for further research to be conducted. The preliminary cost for outfitting all paramedics was approximately $500,000.00 not including replacement costs due to attrition. Initial research indicated that the protective vests have a functional life span of approximately 5 years and, based on developments occurring in other jurisdictions the Joint Health & Safety Committee felt it appropriate to defer this item in order to gather additional information. In the interim, the Ambulance Division has reissued on-scene safety protocols for its paramedics and should the Health & Safety Committee recommend that paramedics receive this equipment appropriate adjustments will be incorporated in the 2001-2005 Capital Works Program.":
http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/1999/agendas/committees/bud/bud991209/cap/it022a.htm


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