# "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"



## 2ndChoiceName

> A Toronto police officer is slated to surrender himself into SIU custody Tuesday morning after he was charged with second-degree murder in the shooting death of Sammy Yatim on a Toronto streetcar in July.
> 
> Constable James Forcillo will appear before a justice of the peace at Old City Hall on Tuesday, August 20, according to an SIU press release issued early Monday afternoon. His lawyer, Peter Brauti, said the initial appearance will begin at 9 a.m. and that a bail hearing will then be scheduled for some time in the future, though he hopes it will take place “as soon as possible.”



More at link: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/ontario-police-watchdog-lays-second-degree-murder-charge-in-sammy-yatim-shooting/article13837354/


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## pbi

While I strongly believe that PC Forcillo must be held accountable for what he is alleged to have done, something I find alarming is the depth of anti-police feeling this case has stirred up in the blogosphere (and to an extent, in other media forums as well). This ranges from barely articulate mouth-breathers posting incoherent rants, to others who seem to have a kindergarten-level understanding of our legal system, to people expressing more reasonable concerns and questions about police training, protocols and attitudes.

Taken together, it seems that a fair number of people have serious, if somewhat misinformed, concerns about the police and our judicial system., and the Yatim case has brought them to the forefront. 

I was brought up to respect and trust the police. While I believe that police must be held to a very high standard, and punishment of police offenders should serve an exemplary purpose, I still think that the majority of them do their jobs well, and rarely draw their weapons (and even more rarely ever shoot anybody, ever). 

How did we get here?


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## BeyondTheNow

pbi said:
			
		

> ...



I'm interested to see what the final outcome will be of proposed changes to the _Use of Force Continuum_ there's increased talk of amending now. (Assuming changes take place.) Yes, there are complaints (some justified, some not) and there are definitely those (not referring specifically to police officers, but to any persons in a law-enforcement related field) who have exercised poor judgement and acted against its outline. But overall it seems to have worked well and achieved its purpose since its inception, although I understand the need to examine it, I suppose. (_All_ options need to be thoroughly reviewed in order to allow the performance of duties in the safest and most efficient way possible for all, in order to appease certain persons.) A positive aspect, IMO, to come out of this is talk of increased training for officers, which some seem to be in favor of.


Edit: content


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## OldSolduer

pbi said:
			
		

> While I strongly believe that PC Forcillo must be held accountable for what he is alleged to have done, something I find alarming is the depth of anti-police feeling this case has stirred up in the blogosphere (and to an extent, in other media forums as well). This ranges from barely articulate mouth-breathers posting incoherent rants, to others who seem to have a kindergarten-level understanding of our legal system, to people expressing more reasonable concerns and questions about police training, protocols and attitudes.
> 
> Taken together, it seems that a fair number of people have serious, if somewhat misinformed, concerns about the police and our judicial system., and the Yatim case has brought them to the forefront.
> 
> I was brought up to respect and trust the police. While I believe that police must be held to a very high standard, and punishment of police offenders should serve an exemplary purpose, I still think that the majority of them do their jobs well, and rarely draw their weapons (and even more rarely ever shoot anybody, ever).
> 
> How did we get here?



It's simple:

Too many people telling us we can eat all the cake we want with no consequences. Those who said we need vegetables were pooh poohed.

Rights have to be balanced with responsibilities and anyone that said that were shouted down.


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## GAP

I am getting a little tired of every facet of society figuring them and their illiterate kids should be entitled to fact finding missions, broad reviews of police procedures, etc. everytime one of them starts shooting things, waving knives, whatever....

You know the law....I don't care if your daddy/mommy/pet goldfish didn't love you....don't break the law...


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## Inquisitor

Actually Toronto Police have advanced a great deal over the years in this area. 

I speak as someone who has a condition that has on a couple of occasions that were litterally psychotic, when I was off meds. 

Why, too string doses and our side effects including for example incidents of epileptic seizures that seemed worse that the meds. 

That said most people in this type of condition are aware enough to be afraid when police show up, They are aware that they have done something wrong. 

Both sides needs to be better educated, my initial treatment should have included some education in what sorts of behaviour could potentially trigger use of lethal force from the police. 

On the more positive side, police training has gotten better in how to respond to a irrational person. 

There is a Toronto unit called Medical Crisis Intervention Team??? that consists of Constables plus Psychiatric nurses to respond to this situation. For whatever reason it was not available.

Its too bad how this worked out, everyone wishes that it had worked out better. 

Sammy provoked the police response. 9 rounds seem excessive, that said I wouldn't have wanted to be Forcillo or any of those constable at that moment. 

2'nd degree murder??? seems excessive, I feel he'll get off. If that happens there will be another media circus. Manslaughter seems more suitable.

Lets hope the findings lessen the chance of this happening again. 

GAP just saw your post: Goes back to my point about better educating the potentially inflicted. At one point I wasn't a that having a knife can allow that type of response.  The way I understand it the person confronted doesn't even have to be armed. If the police perceive that there is potential for injury to themselves or others they have that option.


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## Jarnhamar

I'm surprised at how many people seem to completely overlook the fact that this poor poor misunderstood child pulled a fucking knife on a woman on a crowded street car while making very obvious sexual gestures. Some reports even say he tried to keep passengers on the streetcar.

It does seem to (uninformed me) like excessive force but wow talk about an orgy of anti police trash talk.


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## BeyondTheNow

In reading some of the other replies, I just want to make sure I'm not being misunderstood with my own post.

I am an advocate for policing and the job they perform every day. I had worked in/been readily exposed to the police/law-enforcement field for over ten years and had been involved in escalated situations involving weapons (including firearms) physical assaults, combative mentally-ill persons, arrests, needing to exercise DT, etc. 

I don't think I articulated well that the heightened attention surrounding this particular incident is surprising to me--not necessarily the incident itself, but the volume of other issues being raised after the fact. And as pbi stated, there seems to be quite a lot of people voicing opinions about an industry that they've never had direct exposure to, other than tuning in when something goes awry. That's why I'm interested in seeing the end result, if any, about the talk of 'use of force' amendments that I don't feel are needed--our current layout has seemed sufficient for a number of years, minus an extremely low percentage of errors.

My apologies if I was offensive toward other readers or that I had cast judgement, because I certainly didn't intend to come off that way. 




Edit: typo/clarification


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## Kat Stevens

GAP said:
			
		

> I am getting a little tired of every facet of society figuring them and their illiterate kids should be entitled to fact finding missions, broad reviews of police procedures, etc. everytime one of them starts shooting things, waving knives, whatever....
> 
> You know the law....I don't care if your daddy/mommy/pet goldfish didn't love you....don't break the law...



Hey, I'm all for two in the centre of visible mass when all else fails, but this goober was alone on the trolley surrounded by LEOs with a knife, were 9 rounds really necessary?  If said goober were my son, I would have been more than happy to let several heavy callsigns tune him up with a baton or five.  People don't get wound up over cops doing their jobs for the most part, they get wound up by them OVERdoing their jobs, and getting caught on tape, or whatever, doing it.  I wasn't there, so I can't say what went down, but it sure don't LOOK good.  As for the police being my friend?  No, no they're not.  They're a guy given the job of maintaining order, and given a pretty large scope of powers to achieve that job.  Just like soldiers, cops are a microcosm of society, and it's not inconceivable to think one or two of them may enjoy their job just a tiny bit too much, and this is not an anti LEO post, so climb down off the white charger before you kick the spurs in and charge.


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## Bruce Monkhouse

Hey,...I'm as pro-police as a human can be, and I sure hope that there was something going on that we haven't seen yet on the other side of the streetcar, because from the only video we've seen I'm with Kat.

Just one thing,.....................one round or nine rounds...........not part of this story. IMO.


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## JesseWZ

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Hey,...I'm as pro-police as a human can be, and I sure hope that there was something going on that we haven't seen yet on the other side of the streetcar, because from the only video we've seen I'm with Kat.
> 
> Just one thing,.....................one round or nine rounds...........not part of this story. IMO.



Edited* 

As always, time will tell. Good shoot or bad, it will come out in the wash.


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## GAP

Kat I agree entirely with your comments....I am just sick of the instant whine everytime the police respond forcefully.....right or wrong, like it has been said, it will come out in the wash


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## brihard

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Hey,...I'm as pro-police as a human can be, and I sure hope that there was something going on that we haven't seen yet on the other side of the streetcar, because from the only video we've seen I'm with Kat.
> 
> Just one thing,.....................one round or nine rounds...........not part of this story. IMO.



Slight disagreement on this... My issue isn't the specific round count, but rather the two very distinct target engagements. I view the three and the six rounds are being necessary to separately justify. There was ample time for "did I hit/did it work?" between them, and those questions will be at the core of this. What will be looked very closely at is how the officer perceived the subject as a threat of grievous bodily harm or death after those first three shots and the target appeared to drop, and what was the officer's intent if he is unable to articulate that those three shots did not stop the immediate threat?

I'm fighting very, very hard to reserve judgment because I wasn't there and cannot experience the situation through the eyes of the officer. I just know that from the outside looking in, it's ugly.


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## jollyjacktar

You are accountable for any force you use and if it's deemed unreasonable or excessive you will face the consequences.  I trust the system to come to a just decision bearing in mind all the relevant facts.  My sympathies go to both families and the Cst. as they're all irrevocably changed by this tragedy.   May some good come out of it at the end of the day.


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## Nemo888

It certainly looks like manslaughter from the video. Police are only police as long as they have credibility with the public. In many places in the USA they feel like an occupying force and are terrified of citizens. I really don't want that coming up here. He needs to be made an example.


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## jeffb

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> It certainly looks like manslaughter from the video. Police are only police as long as they have credibility with the public. In many places in the USA they feel like an occupying force and are terrified of citizens. I really don't want that coming up here. He needs to be made an example.



And I think this is where someone, in this case me, points out that the police officer in question is innocent until proven guilty despite what you think it looks like on that poor quality video.


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## J.J

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> It certainly looks like manslaughter from the video. Police are only police as long as they have credibility with the public. In many places in the USA they feel like an occupying force and are terrified of citizens. I really don't want that coming up here. He needs to be made an example.



I have you on ignore for a reason, but like a car accident I can't help myself from looking and I always regret it.


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## Fishbone Jones

WR said:
			
		

> I have you on ignore for a reason, but like a car accident I can't help myself from looking and I always regret it.



QFTT


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## OldSolduer

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> It certainly looks like manslaughter from the video. Police are only police as long as they have credibility with the public. In many places in the USA they feel like an occupying force and are terrified of citizens. I really don't want that coming up here. He needs to be made an example.



Innocent til proven guilty. Remember that. That is a basic tenet of our Charter.


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## Inquisitor

To add to my last post - I mentioned the MCIT Team, Sammy reportedly asked for them to attend. As I noted earlier they were not available. 

That to me seems to indicate that he knew he had crossed the line, and was asking for help. 

I believe the LEO's are trained to, and preferred response in situations like this is to contain, and if possible deescalate. 

I am not taking sides. I empathize with empathize with the LEO side and sympathize with the family. 

I truly do not mean to aggravate,  Most  with LEO experience  know that those they confront are rarely utterly irrational. 

Trying to finish with a positive comment.  I note again that Sammy provoked the response. I've walked some mile in his shoes, and can truthfully state that to be mentally incapable is the cruelest fate I can imagine.  

The system has been improving, Toronto Police are amongst the best in the world in dealing with this type of situation.


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## Nemo888

Where do police derive their authority? Largely from their integrity. If that becomes questionable just look to the third world or even some inner cites in the US. He needs to be publicly punished for the good of the force. Crimes need to be reported and people have to want to call the police when crimes happen. Without public confidence effective policing becomes impossible. I am sorry he has to be thrown under the bus, but he will be.


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## OldSolduer

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> Where do police derive their authority? Largely from their integrity. If that becomes questionable just look to the third world or even some inner cites in the US. He needs to be publicly punished for the good of the force. Crimes need to be reported and people have to want to call the police when crimes happen. Without public confidence effective policing becomes impossible. I am sorry he has to be thrown under the bus, but he will be.



Does a moderator have to spell this out for you? He has been charged but not tried nor found guilty. 

I find your comment to be insensitive.


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## Nemo888

In this case it doesn't really matter. The force is more important than one man. They need to get some good optics on this. It must _look like_ the officer is punished as most of the public have already judged him. No commission or investigative report can make up for it this time. It's a video. Throw him a bone with a good private sector job and a generous payout. Even a pension on a psych eval. Policing Toronto is already a nightmare.


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## J.J

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> In this case it doesn't really matter. The force is more important than one man. They need to get some good optics on this. It must _look like_ the officer is punished as most of the public have already judged him. No commission or investigative report can make up for it this time. It's a video. Throw him a bone with a good private sector job and a generous payout. Even a pension on a psych eval. Policing Toronto is already a nightmare.





			
				WR said:
			
		

> I have you on ignore for a reason, but like a car accident I can't help myself from looking and I always regret it.



 :trainwreck:


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## Bruce Monkhouse

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> In this case it doesn't really matter. The force is more important than one man. They need to get some good optics on this. It must _look like_ the officer is punished as most of the public have already judged him. No commission or investigative report can make up for it this time. It's a video. Throw him a bone with a good private sector job and a generous payout. Even a pension on a psych eval. Policing Toronto is already a nightmare.



You're the one in need of a psych evaluation..................I give you a lot of leeway because I truly believe you're troubled but tread lightly because my patience is wearing very, very thin.

Bruce
Staff


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## George Wallace

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> Where do police derive their authority? Largely from their integrity.



NO.  Integrity has nothing to do with where they derive their "authority".  Their authority is derived from the LAW as laid out by the statutes of the Province of Ontario in the Police Services Act.


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## Nemo888

The history of policing is much more complex and profound than a piece of paper. They are moral arbiters who prevent mobs meting out punishments based on gossip, revenge and jealousy. They have a quasireligious function as fair and impartial tools of justice. Police fulfill what was once the role of priests centuries ago. When that role is functional society benefits beyond measure.  But primarily It's effectiveness is based on the social contract between the officers and the policed. Perceived corruption utterly destroys policing. In many place no one calls them or even thinks of doing so when crimes are committed.

I don't think he will be treated fairly for purely political reasons and yes I do see the irony in that.


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## George Wallace

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> The history of policing is much more complex and profound than a piece of paper. They are moral arbiters who prevent mobs meting out punishments based on gossip, revenge and jealousy. They have a quasireligious function as fair and impartial tools of justice. Police fulfill what was once the role of priests centuries ago. When that role is functional society benefits beyond measure.  But primarily It's effectiveness is based on the social contract between the officers and the policed. Perceived corruption utterly destroys policing. In many place no one calls them or even thinks of doing so when crimes are committed.



What are you smoking?


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## Nemo888

Crown Royal.


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## George Wallace

Well.  Stop smoking it.  It is for sipping.


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## pbi

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> Where do police derive their authority? Largely from their integrity. If that becomes questionable just look to the third world or even some inner cites in the US.



No and yes. Police derive their_ legal _authority from the law, not from their character. A dishonest, corrupt cop has the same legal authority as the best officer on the street.

Their _moral and social_ authority ("_We obey them because we believe it's the right thing to do_"), comes very much from how the public view them and the system they represent: this is where their integrity comes in.  When police no longer have the trust and respect of the public they serve, their job becomes much, much harder. Maybe impossible. For example: if everybody in a city the size of Kingston  (where I live) decides to break the law, our entire city police force of around 200 all ranks would not be enough to control it. The 20 or so PC's on the street during a shift definitely can't control any more than a tiny fraction of the population at any time. But that isn't really how it works. Society relies on people obeying the law and cooperating with the police because that's what we think we should do.



> He needs to be publicly punished for the good of the force.



If he is found guilty by due process, with all the defences that any Canadian is provided under our legal system, and under the assumption of innocence, I agree that he must be punished. There is no question about this: an undisciplined, unaccountable police service is a huge threat to society: anybody who has served in any Third World place knows this.



> I am sorry he has to be thrown under the bus, but he will be.



I hope not. That would be absolutely the wrong approach.  Don't confuse the common legal (and military...) practice of exemplary punishment with "..throwing under the bus.." If he is wrongly sacrificed like this, IMHO two unintended effects will result:

-good cops will lose heart,  go into "avoidance mode"; and perhaps second-guess themselves at the wrong moment, when they could rightly and legally use lethal force; and

-bad cops will be reinforced in their belief that it is all about "us against the world"; the system doesn't work, and they must continue to break the law in order to "uphold" it.

That said, I doubt very much that a court case will result in him being "thrown under" any bus.  It has been pointed out that in Ontario, juries are typically reluctant even to find police guilty on charges. I am sure that the Police Association will do all it can to give him a good lawyer, which is to be expected. The Crown will have to make a very good case if it wants to win this, especially for murder.


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## Anakha

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> Where do police derive their authority? Largely from their integrity. If that becomes questionable just look to the third world or even some inner cites in the US. He needs to be publicly punished for the good of the force. Crimes need to be reported and people have to want to call the police when crimes happen. Without public confidence effective policing becomes impossible. I am sorry he has to be thrown under the bus, but he will be.



The fact that you're supporting the violation of basic civil liberties (innocent until proven guilty and if found so then given a punishment fitting for the crime) in order to supposedly prevent the breakdown of the justice system is very disturbing. It doesn't matter if the armchair police officers of the general public have already decided he's guilty. That's why we have courts and a legal process and not lynch mobs. Those who are looking for him to be punished without trial and those who wish for him to be "made an example" of, such as yourself are, IMO, more of a threat to society than this LEO. You make it sound like he should be whipped in the town square. Your perspective is outdated and frankly rather warped.


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## Jarnhamar

Is making an example out of him different from someone suggesting that a kid facing off against a cop should be shot in the head in order to make an example out of what happens when you break the law with a weapon?

Thowing him under the bus is a bad idea for the reasons PBI wisely pointed out.  On top of that you would be naive to think that it would make a difference to the people you're suggesting.


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## OldSolduer

Furthermore - there is always a segment of the population who are anti authority. Any incident involving LEO and the public is always the LEO's fault.


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## J.J

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Furthermore - there is always a segment of the population who are anti authority. Any incident involving LEO and the public is always the LEO's fault.



 :goodpost:


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## Jacky Tar

WR said:
			
		

> Jim Seggie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Furthermore - there is always a segment of the population who are anti authority. Any incident involving LEO and the public is always the LEO's fault.
> 
> 
> 
> :goodpost:
Click to expand...


This is why we need a "Like" button. I concur.  :nod:


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## garb811

pbi said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> Taken together, it seems that a fair number of people have serious, if somewhat misinformed, concerns about the police and our judicial system., and the Yatim case has brought them to the forefront.
> 
> I was brought up to respect and trust the police. While I believe that police must be held to a very high standard, and punishment of police offenders should serve an exemplary purpose, I still think that the majority of them do their jobs well, and rarely draw their weapons (and even more rarely ever shoot anybody, ever).
> 
> How did we get here?


We've gotten here for a number of reasons:

- The CSI effect.  Normally attributed to juries but this is also something I have noticed about police work in general.  A jury expects every possible investigative technique thrown at all manner of crime, whether applicable or not, and the general public have become experts in both the Use of Force continuum and what someone is realistically able to do.  How many times have we heard, "Well, they could have just shot the <insert weapons> out of his hand, they didn't have to kill him".  Realistically, police are not "trying to kill" the person, just like the military, they are putting rounds in the center of mass simply because it is the largest area to hit.

-  Combined with this there is the leakage from south of the border for everyone concerned.  The Canadian public sees high profile cases from the States and superimpose the beliefs and opinions they have formed from those cases onto actions here even when the cases are only superficially similar.  This is not simply a cops and robbers issue, we've seen people jumping the gun on CSEC based on *possible* illegal activities that *may* have occurred 13 years ago simply because the Chairman of the oversight committee deemed it worthy to put in his report that the proper paperwork could not be found or was incomplete.  Because NSA has been caught with its fingers in the cookie jar due to the Snowden leaks, ergo this is a smoking gun that says CSEC is actively and illegally targeting Canadians.

- The proliferation of technology.  Everyone has a camera and isn't afraid to use it. They also are predisposed to upload what they capture to social media.  This raw footage without informed commentary makes it easy for the naysayers to get the message out. 

-  Technology also allows the naysayers to get the spun message out rapidly and very effectively to their target audience and their audience is already predisposed to believe what they are putting out.  That target audience subsequently forwards it on to their 500 Facebook friends, and out of those 50 will forward it and so on and so on...  This becomes the self licking ice cream cone with each of these people feeding their own information cycle to each other.

-  There are a few in the mainstream media who make it their goal to canonize the "victims" of police action.  I can count on one hand where a family member, friend or neighbour has come forward and said, "Yeah, Jimmy was a dirt bag".  Rather Jimmy is always the devoted father of two beautiful kids who was just trying to get by in the world and it's obvious the police overreacted and murdered him.  The police officer, on the other hand, has a tendency to go to ground and his supporters are much less likely to get out in front with the media because they want to respect the officer's privacy.

Fortunately, as Mr Campbell likes to say about the Canadian public's support of the military, the "disdain" or "mistrust" of the police is, in my perception, a mile wide but an inch deep during these instances.  How many people were they able to muster in Toronto, 3-500? out of 6 million?  Hardly overwhelming.

Finally, I find it ironic that some of the commentators were upset that the charge was 2nd Degree murder as opposed to manslaughter as they think it would be easier to get a conviction on manslaughter.  Obviously the intent in their mind is to just convict a cop as opposed to seeing justice truly served.


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## Container

The way I see it, and really who gives a crap what I think, people need to keep in mind. Cops are everyday people. 99% of them shoot their weapon once a year. And they dont shoot particularly well. .5% miss their quals that year, and the other .5% shoot more often...generally because they like it...and they drift into streams where they shoot more often.

Shooting is such a little portion of what police officers do that its a tick in the box. I know everyone is shocked when a police officer doesnt know how to clear a weapon. They arent soldiers. They are cultivated as social workers who have LIMITED arrest and control tactics exposure that rusts if they dont practice themselves after they graduate. They have limited exposure to firearms. 

Of course thats opinion. But I do train police officers. I see the good and the bad.

I try and impart on them that they are more than a duty belt that shows up to a call. They are paid to be calm and make decisions. If they are not calm (to a reasonable level) then they haven't prepared well enough. We ve had convictions on police shoots where the officer is in a 1 second two round gun fight- the judge has found the first round justified but the second round excessive. If you are not CALM (as a person can reasonably be) you will not be taking in the information to make good decisions and planning. Not everyone subscribes to that theory. 

I have no opinion on the video. I think that someone has to answer when they employ force like that. I havent heard it and the video isnt good so Ill let the jury do its thing. The charge was VERY fast however. Also- the issuing of a warrant was unusual. As was the high bail.

The ONE thing from the video that I noted is that once he was contained I didnt see a response being coordinated and plan happening. I saw lots of independent officers doing their own thing. I cant help but think that PERHAPS coordination could have assisted. But thats complete arm chairing


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## 2ndChoiceName

I know some of you have experience in the LEO fields but for those who don't I found this video on Officer involved shootings quite enlightening.

http://www.forcescience.org/hollywoodvsreality.html


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## 2ndChoiceName

In addition to that last link, the Ontario government is now allowing all officers to carry "conducted energy weapons" (Tasers), however each police service is responsible for the decision whether or not to issue them and must cover the cost. More at link:

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/ontario-to-allow-police-officers-to-carry-stun-guns-1.1428226


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## FJAG

garb811 said:
			
		

> Finally, I find it ironic that some of the commentators were upset that the charge was 2nd Degree murder as opposed to manslaughter as they think it would be easier to get a conviction on manslaughter.  Obviously the intent in their mind is to just convict a cop as opposed to seeing justice truly served.



This points to uninformed commentators amongst the press. Manslaughter is a lesser included offence to both 1st and 2nd degree murder. Accordingly where an individual is charged with 2nd degree murder and the crown cannot establish all the requisite elements for that charge, a jury can still find an individual guilty of manslaughter as long as all the requisite elements for manslaughter are proven.


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## Jarnhamar

garb811 said:
			
		

> - The CSI effect.


Boston Marathon bombings.



> I can count on one hand where a family member, friend or neighbour has come forward and said, "Yeah, Jimmy was a dirt bag".  Rather Jimmy is always the devoted father of two beautiful kids who was just trying to get by in the world and it's obvious the police overreacted and murdered him.


My father mentioned something like this when he worked in corrections.  An inmate's family may have never visted him once in 5 years but the minute he hangs himself the family is at the door crying about how much they miss and love their errant son and how they want to sue everybody for lots of money.


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## Fishbone Jones

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Boston Marathon bombings.
> My father mentioned something like this when he worked in corrections.  An inmate's family may have never visted him once in 5 years but the minute he hangs himself the family is at the door crying about how much they miss and love their errant son and how they want to sue everybody for lots of money.



QFTT


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## OldSolduer

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> 19
> My father mentioned something like this when he worked in corrections.  An inmate's family may have never visted him once in 5 years but the minute he hangs himself the family is at the door crying about how much they miss and love their errant son and how they want to sue everybody for lots of money.



We had a case like that in Winnipeg.
19 Year old gang member approaches police with a screwdriver in a threatening manner. Police order him to drop it, he advances with it.
Cops draw, one more warning, no compliance. Cop puts two into him, gangster dead.

A certain community cries "racist white cop" until its revealed that the cop that shot him is Metis. No more hubbub after that.

And Granny said he was a saint "he wasn't no gang member" ....but everyone of the inmates in the range knew him.


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## Thompson_JM

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> We had a case like that in Winnipeg.
> 19 Year old gang member approaches police with a screwdriver in a threatening manner. Police order him to drop it, he advances with it.
> Cops draw, one more warning, no compliance. Cop puts two into him, gangster dead.
> 
> A certain community cries "racist white cop" until its revealed that the cop that shot him is Metis. No more hubbub after that.
> 
> And Granny said he was a saint "he wasn't no gang member" ....but everyone of the inmates in the range knew him.



IIRC it wasn't just a screwdriver, but one which had been sharpened for the express purpose of being able to go through soft body armor.... (Unless this was another shooting with similar circumstances....) 

As far as the PC in Toronto goes, he is innocent until proven guilty. It's a terrible situation for everyone, and I am nothing short of disgusted at the way he was thrown under the bus in every which way. Especially the in the news. Specifically one "News" paper in Toronto named after celestial bodies....  Disgraceful, but sadly not surprising.


----------



## Donavann

Well Crimes need to be revealed, and people have to want to contact the police when crimes occur. Without community assurance, policing monitoring becomes difficult.


----------



## JesseWZ

You know that post is 6 months old right? Police Officers have all the same legal rights as you Donavann. If the situation was reversed the offender is still entitled to a fair trial and presumed innocent until proven otherwise.

 No discussion required.


----------



## mariomike

Jan 25, 2016 

Forcillo guilty of attempted murder, not guilty of second-degree murder
http://www.680news.com/2016/01/25/breaking-forcillo-guilty-of-attempted-murder-not-guilty-of-second-degree-murder/


----------



## jollyjacktar

I'm scratching my head at that one.


----------



## Pilot-Wannabe

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I'm scratching my head at that one.



To sum up from my understanding.  Forcillo fired two volleys of shots.  3 first.  Followed by 6 more when Yatim was on the ground. 

The 2nd Degree charge he was found not guilty of was for the first 3 shots.  The Jury finding him not guilty means they found he was acting in the course of his duty.

The second volley is the attempt charge.  The first 3 shots were the fatal ones I believe hence why the second charge was attempt.  The 5.5 second pause from first to second volley was what made the whole second volley questionable.  He will probably appeal.

 :2c:


----------



## George Wallace

What is sad, is listening to the comments by people with absolutely no knowledge of firearms saying things like "they should shoot for the hands or legs".  I sure hope none of that type of person was on the jury.  If they don't understand that Police, and military, train to shoot the center of the visible mass, and use the "double tap", they should not have been selected.


----------



## Jarnhamar

How do they know the first 3 shots were the fatal ones?

is that cop going to keep his job after putting 6 rounds into someone on the ground?


----------



## Pilot-Wannabe

Ive been hearing a lot of the same. Shoot for the limbs.  Dont have the heart to tell those saying it that a leg shot can be fatal and that's secondary to the training to shoot for center mass double tap.  A guy on drugs like Yatim was probably wont stop with wounding shot regardless.

His career is over, even with an appeal regardless of the outcome.

EDIT

Results of the shots are in this article.  Second bullet was the fatal one grazing his heart.  As to how exactly the coroner determines that I have no idea.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/christie-blatchford-sammy-yatims-spine-was-shattered-and-he-was-lying-on-his-back-but-const-forcillo-kept-firing-prosecutor-says


----------



## jollyjacktar

George Wallace said:
			
		

> What is sad, is listening to the comments by people with absolutely no knowledge of firearms saying things like "they should shoot for the hands or legs".  I sure hope none of that type of person was on the jury.  If they don't understand that Police, and military, train to shoot the center of the visible mass, and use the "double tap", they should not have been selected.



That is the "Hollywood" effect.  They do it in the movies and it's usually a good outcome, right?  Why can't it be done in real life like many other things in the movies.  You know, cops solver murders in under a half hour, you can dust for fingerprints anywhere and always come up with perfect ones straight away that get a hit first time on who turns out to be the prime suspect.


----------



## Remius

I know I solve all of my problems with a blacklight and hard rock music.  Average time is 10mins.  Lost keys, evidence of milk spilling, cat litter, murder, you name it.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Remius said:
			
		

> I know I solve all of my problems with a blacklight and hard rock music.  Average time is 10mins.  Lost keys, evidence of milk spilling, cat litter, murder, you name it.



LOL.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> How do they know the first 3 shots were the fatal ones?



I would imagine the angle of the bullets entering the body (standing vs on the ground).


----------



## mariomike

May 16, 2016 

Forcillo's lawyers seek house arrest sentence in Yatim death
http://www.680news.com/2016/05/16/forcillos-lawyers-seek-house-arrest-sentence-yatim-death/
A police officer found guilty of attempted murder in the death of a teen on an empty streetcar will be back in a Toronto courtroom Monday, where his lawyers will argue for a sentence of house arrest.
Const. James Forcillo has filed a constitutional challenge to the mandatory minimum sentence of four or five years that he faces in the shooting death of 18-year-old Sammy Yatim.


----------



## mariomike

Jul 28, 2016 

Forcillo sentenced to six years for Yatim shooting death
http://www.680news.com/2016/07/28/live-coverage-forcillo-sentenced-to-six-years-for-yatim-shooting-death/


----------



## Cloud Cover

Brauti already filed the appeal before sentencing, bail application soon. Public Order units must be on standby, Forcillo is not a threat to anyone if on bail...


----------



## mariomike

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> Public Order units must be on standby,



The Police Chief announced he has suspended Forcillo's salary effective today. Sammy's mother is suing the City for $8 million. His father for another $7 million...

"According to Melody Garcia, another passenger, Yatim "took his penis out with one hand and a knife in another."

Jul 29, 2016 

Forcillo granted bail as he appeals conviction in Yatim death
http://www.680news.com/2016/07/29/forcillo-granted-bail-appeals-conviction-yatim-death/
A Toronto police officer sentenced to six years for gunning down a troubled teen on an empty streetcar three years ago has been granted bail while he appeals the conviction.


----------



## mariomike

21 Dec. 2017

Const. James Forcillo facing additional charges
http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/const-james-forcillo-facing-additional-charges/ar-BBH8653?li=AAacUQk&ocid=ientp


----------



## The Bread Guy

Necrothread bumped with the latest from the Ontario government …


> Dr. Bonnie Burke, Regional Supervising Coroner for Central Region, Toronto East Office, announced today that an inquest will be held into the death of Sammy Yatim.
> 
> Mr. Yatim, 18, died in hospital on July 27, 2013, after being shot by police inside a Toronto Transit Commission streetcar. An inquest is mandatory under the Coroners Act.
> 
> The inquest will examine the circumstances surrounding Mr. Yatim's death. The jury may make recommendations aimed at preventing future deaths.
> 
> Details regarding the date and location will be provided at a later date when the information becomes available. Dr. David Cameron will preside as inquest coroner and Michael Blain will be counsel to the coroner.


Also, a quick update on from 6 Dec 2018 ...:


> The Supreme Court of Canada won't hear the appeal of a Toronto police officer convicted of attempted murder in the shooting death of teenager Sammy Yatim aboard a streetcar … One of Forcillo's three lawyers, Michael Lacy, was in court Thursday but issued a brief statement over Twitter.  "Mr. Forcillo exercised his right to ask the [Supreme Court] to grant him leave to appeal. The Court declined to do so this morning. We respect that decision," Lacy tweeted.  "This ends the legal proceedings and Mr. Forcillo will now continue to serve out his sentence." ...


… and 23 July 2019:


> A misconduct charge against a Toronto police sergeant who tasered Sammy Yatim as he lay dying of gunshot wounds has been withdrawn by a police disciplinary tribunal.
> 
> Sgt. Dusan Dan Pravica tasered Yatim, 18, shortly after he had been shot eight times by Const. James Forcillo on a streetcar on July 27, 2013.
> 
> On Tuesday, Insp. Shane Branton said the matter had been resolved "by alternative means that were amenable to both parties."
> 
> Pravica was not present at the hearing. His lawyer, Joanne Mulcahy, said he and Yatim had participated in mediation.
> 
> Joseph Figliomeni, lawyer for Sammy Yatim's father, told the tribunal that his client was "satisfied" by the outcome of that mediation, which was run though the Office of the Independent Police Review Director (OIPRD.)
> 
> He said that the process "gave Mr. Yatim the opportunity to share his views with Sgt. Pravica in a dignified and respectful setting." ...


----------



## mariomike

> The jury may make recommendations aimed at preventing future deaths.



Since Sammy was inside the streetcar,

One recommendation might be to show officers in divisions that include streetcars how to close the doors from outside using the hidden button meant for that purpose. 

_Not saying it would have made a difference in this case_.  But, it's good to know.

The last remaining CLVR / ALRV type involved in this incident should be out of service by the end of this year. The new Flexity Outlook likely has something similar. But, it went into service after I retired.



			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> Sammy's mother is suing the City for $8 million. His father for another $7 million...



I wonder if Toronto taxpayers will ever be told how much the final settlement is, or if it will be "an undisclosed amount".

From what I understand, they are typically covered by confidentiality agreements. Unless it goes to trial.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Its actually a sad state [IMO] that they didn't know what to do in this situation.   My jail crisis team could have easily solved this one.....hmmmm, contained with a weapon??….a little bit of aerosol with a bite to it, and eat pizza until he decides the environment in there is not to his liking anymore.   "Say what?"  "Oh yea, be with ya' in a minute...." ;D


----------



## brihard

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Its actually a sad state [IMO] that they didn't know what to do in this situation.   My jail crisis team could have easily solved this one.....hmmmm, contained with a weapon??….a little bit of aerosol with a bite to it, and eat pizza until he decides the environment in there is not to his liking anymore.   "Say what?"  "Oh yea, be with ya' in a minute...." ;D



How do you figure? From when the first officer arrived on scene to when Forcillo fired was just under a minute. He had already requested backup with a taser and had already for the intention to contain and take it from there. Unfortunately before any of that could happen, Yatim crossed Forcillo’s ‘line in the sand’ and was shot. Given the weapon and the nature of the threats, Forcillo had decided he would not allow Yatim, while brandishing the knife, to make it out of the streetcar. That was all sound thinking and consistent with training.

At trial, Forcillo was acquitted of murder because the first three shots he fired - which were fatal - were found to be justified self defense. He was convicted of _attempted_ murder based on the second volley of shots fired after Yatim was down and immobile. He has justifiably shot to stop; he was convicted for separately and subsequently shooting to kill, but only convicted on the attempt because the first justified volley was already fatal.

All said and done it was extremely fast. No team would have been in place in that time. Had Yatim continued pacing and ranting on the streetcar for a few more units, undoubtedly the tactical guys would have begun showing up and it would have transitioned into what for the Tac dudes is a very routine, albeit high risk situation. Even at that, Yatim would probably still have been shot had he moved to exit the streetcar.


----------



## mariomike

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> My jail crisis team could have easily solved this one.....



How to operate the doors of Toronto streetcars from the outside is not something a correctional officer would ever do.

I was careful to type, in _italics_ ,



> _Not saying it would have made a difference in this case_.




But, for Toronto police officers, firefighters and paramedics who get sent to streetcar incidents,



> But, it's good to know.



From Reply #62,



> News Release
> 
> Inquest into the Death of Sammy Yatim Announced
> 
> July 31, 2019
> 
> The jury may make recommendations aimed at preventing future deaths.
> https://news.ontario.ca/mcscs/en/2019/07/inquest-into-the-death-of-sammy-yatim-announced.html



Be interesting to see their recommendations. 

As a Toronto taxpayer, for me it would be even more interesting to see how much the City pays out in the lawsuit. 

But, unless the civil case goes to trial, I guess it will simply be for "an undisclosed amount".


----------



## brihard

mariomike said:
			
		

> How to operate the doors of Toronto streetcars from the outside is not something a correctional officer would ever do.
> 
> I was careful to type, in _italics_ ,
> 
> But, for Toronto police officers, firefighters and paramedics who get sent to streetcar incidents,



The flaw on that is that if there’s a suspect with a knife, you’re not going to send an officer in unnecessarily close hoping he can find a button while also being alert and ready to defend himself if the suspect suddenly makes a move. You’ve put that officer dangerously close to the arcs of fire for any lethal overwatch protecting him.


----------



## mariomike

Brihard said:
			
		

> You’ve put that officer dangerously close to the arcs of fire for any lethal overwatch protecting him.



As I said, in _italics_ ,



> Not saying it would have made a difference in this case.  But, it's good to know.



Not likely most Toronto police officers, firefighters and paramedics would even know where to find it. 

It was part of the training in the unit I was assigned to. There's been three different types of streetcars in the city since I hired on.

And, as you say, for officer safety, it may not have even been an option to consider. Assuming they were aware of it.



> News Release
> 
> Inquest into the Death of Sammy Yatim Announced
> 
> July 31, 2019
> 
> The jury may make recommendations aimed at preventing future deaths.
> https://news.ontario.ca/mcscs/en/2019/07/inquest-into-the-death-of-sammy-yatim-announced.html



This discussion has been active for six years. As the inquest was only announced three days ago, I suppose we will have to be patient and continue to wait for the recommendations.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Brihard said:
			
		

> backup with a taser


Don't make me giggle...


----------



## brihard

mariomike said:
			
		

> As I said, in _italics_ ,
> 
> Not likely most Toronto police officers, firefighters and paramedics would even know where to find it.
> 
> It was part of the training in the unit I was assigned to. There's been three different types of streetcars in the city since I hired on.
> 
> And, as you say, for officer it may not have even been an option to consider. Assuming they were even aware of it.
> 
> This discussion has been active for six years. As the inquest was only announced three days ago, I suppose we will have to be patient and continue to wait for the recommendations.



It’ll be interesting for sure. In the very limited time they had on scene, and given the space they had to work with, I don’t see that much could have been reasonably expected to be done differently up to the firing of the first shots. Even had a taser been immediately on scene, that would have been a very iffy shot. The probes spread at just under 2” separation per foot of distance. They would have had to get dangerously close to use it and might have provoked a charge by the suspect while doing so.

It’s important to realize that police encounter barricaded people with knifes reasonably frequently. In most cases keeping distance, containing, and talking works to achieve a peaceful surrender. If the dude decides he’s going to suddenly come at you, options get very limited, very fast...


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Don't make me giggle...



And I'm certainly not knocking the cops on scene for calling for it.  It's just such a ludicrous call to have to make.   "We got a hockey game going on here, quick, send us a tennis raquet".
He should have just been able to go to the trunk and pull out the "have a nice day" tank with nozzle.


----------



## brihard

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> And I'm certainly not knocking the cops on scene for calling for it.  It's just such a ludicrous call to have to make.   "We got a hockey game going on here, quick, send us a tennis raquet".
> He should have just been able to go to the trunk and pull out the "have a nice day" tank with nozzle.



You don’t bring spray to a knife fight. First couple members on scene will attempt to contain with lethal. Once that’s in place, THEN Zulu start pulling out other stuff. Taser will likely be the first this available. Depending on the police service, you might soon get bean bag shotguns or 40mm with soft tip rounds that can work to distract or get pain compliance from a safer distance than taser. Once tactical gets on scene (usually with a negotiator en route), then things will slow down a bit and get more deliberate.

Chemical irritants will be one of the last things considered, because generally they don’t work well and will cause problems for your own guys. Usually you’ll only see chemicals deployed to try to flush a barricaded out of an enclosed space where for whatever reason time and negotiation isn’t deemed to be working.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Brihard said:
			
		

> You don’t bring spray to a knife fight.



But you 'call for a taser backup"?   Just wow....this is getting silly.

I can deliver that "chemical irritant" from a very fair distance and if you say it isn't effective, then practice it more.  Pain compliance is not even going to slow down that lad,....sucking for enough oxygen to keep fighting will.


----------



## brihard

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> But you 'call for a taser backup"?   Just wow....this is getting silly.
> 
> I can deliver that "chemical irritant" from a very fair distance and if you say it isn't effective, then practice it more.  Pain compliance is not even going to slow down that lad,....sucking for enough oxygen to keep fighting will.



Yes. Tasers, when effective, incapacitate. They aren’t pain compliance when employed in probe mode; neuromuscular incapacitation is achieved by putting enough current between two points in the body to lock up the musculature. Chemicals debilitate, but we’re all trained, through our own exposure to same, to fight through it. That training is as much about us knowing that the *other* guy can fight through as it is about knowing *we* can. I’ve been tasered twice as well. If it connects, you’re generally going down and completely unable to fight it. Someone sucking wind can still swing a knife. You don’t bum rush a guy holding a knife.

With lethal overwatch in place, tasers are absolutely appropriate to have shoulder-to-shoulder with an officer with lethal. Legacy cartridges are good for about 21’, the new ones are good for about 25’. Still not a comfortable distance from a knife, but they’re an option that can be safely used within the reactionary gap so long as your cover officer is switched on. Last time the guys in my crew had a knife stand-off that’s what happened; the first two members on scene had guns out (unfortunately the only guy qualified and equipped with 40mm was the first on scene and stuck with gun), and the third then was able to deploy taser. It took a couple shots to connect due to clothing, but it worked.

Taser would not have been ideal in this case due to the tight confines of the streetcar, but it was still the appropriate option given what’s on the road. Police don’t generally roll with extinguisher sized OC unless it’s a public order unit. It can work if the plan is to spray, distract, then hit them with a polyester pig pile, but that’s not really a sound COA up a set of streetcar stairs, in a doorway, against an offender with a knife.

SOP, had he not advanced and forced the shot, would have been contain, negotiate, and use time and space. That seemed to have been Forcillo’s intent, he just didn’t have time to do it. They might have elected to attempt taser, and it could certainly have worked if the guy with it was a good shot... But that still would have left Yatim up in a streetcar with a known knife immediately at hand and who knows what else in his pockets.

I recognize there are TTPs, resources, and capabilities that will be much more effective within an institution than in a street environment. The significant difference doesn’t make what I’m saying ‘silly’. I can’t speak for what you guys do or how. I can speak, from experience, to how we deal with a guy in a vehicle in a public setting who’s brandishing a blade. Fortunately in the few such situations I’ve been to, we’ve been able to talk things out while maintaining proper overwatch.

Forcillo did things as right as he could be expected to up until the second volley of shots. That inexcusable error is why he’s in prison.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

I too have been tased, awesome equipment, wish we had them. I however am NOT going to miss with my launcher [well maybe the first couple ;D] and can keep firing until he's a ball-bruised cloud of gas. I'm not talking about standing there with a can of foam...…

I'm not trying to assign blame here, its doing with what you have, [just like I'd love tasers on our tac teams, it's *stunningly stupid we don't] I'm just saying there should be more options if "they" are serious about having different outcomes.

* yes I went there.


----------



## brihard

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I too have been tased, awesome equipment, wish we had them. I however am NOT going to miss with my launcher [well maybe the first couple ;D] and can keep firing until he's a ball-bruised cloud of gas. I'm not talking about standing there with a can of foam...…
> 
> I'm not trying to assign blame here, its doing with what you have, [just like I'd love tasers on our tac teams, it's *stunningly stupid we don't] I'm just saying there should be more options if "they" are serious about having different outcomes.
> 
> * yes I went there.



Oh, you’re talking a pepperball launcher. Ok, I was picturing one of the big ‘riot extinguishers’. Yeah, much better stand-off with a launcher... though again there’s gotta be a plan beyond turning a criminal into a seasoned criminal... It can be a way to make things suck enough that he may quit- but could alternatively provoke a charge. Suicide by cop is one of the big risks in these things.


----------



## mariomike

Brihard said:
			
		

> The flaw on that is that if there’s a suspect with a knife, you’re not going to send an officer in unnecessarily close hoping he can find a button while also being alert and ready to defend himself if the suspect suddenly makes a move. You’ve put that officer dangerously close to the arcs of fire for any lethal overwatch protecting him.



For reference to the discussion,



> Defence lawyer Peter Brauti, "closing the streetcar doors by flipping the switch on the outside of the vehicle was not an option for fear Yatim might commandeer the vehicle "and start ripping through Toronto with 40 tonnes of steel."
> https://nowtoronto.com/news/sammy-yatim-gone-in-60-seconds/



The service brakes will be applied as long as the doors are open and the interlock  over-ride switch is off.

Not sure if that was the thinking at the time. But, the concern raised by the officer's lawyer in court about closing the doors from the outside was that with the secondary air released  , Sammy might hijack the 505 Dundas car for a wild ride through the west-end!

It's been known to happen in Toronto,



> Hijacked streetcar: Members of the Metro police Emergency Task Force last night used tear gas to subdue a man who had commandeered a TTC streetcar.
> https://www.torontopubliclibrary.ca/detail.jsp?Entt=RDMDC-TSPA_0121208F&R=DC-TSPA_0121208F&searchPageType=vrl



We'll have to stay tuned for the inquest.



			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> Oh, you’re talking a pepperball launcher.



Had to look that one up.  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRbmtL8NW6Y

Awesome!


----------



## Cloud Cover

James Forcillo is out on day parole, as of last month.  https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/forcillo-granted-day-parole-1.5250316

Convicted and imprisoned. Divorced and lost everything. Sued into oblivion. It’s not going to be an easy life for him going forward.


----------



## brihard

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> James Forcillo is out on day parole, as of last month.  https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/forcillo-granted-day-parole-1.5250316
> 
> Convicted and imprisoned. Divorced and lost everything. Sued into oblivion. It’s not gong to be an easy life for him going forward.



No it will not. But it sends an important message across the profession. Actions have consequences. Know what is and isn’t OK. Police are entrusted with a very great deal of authority and discretion, and it must be wielded responsibly.


----------



## mariomike

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> Sued into oblivion.



Toronto taxpayers are on the hook for $8 million to the mother, and another $7 million to the father.

They were separated, or divorced, at the time of death, apparently.

A service delay by a Toronto paramedic crew cost City taxpayers $10 million to the "significant other" of the deceased. The crew didn't get sued, go to jail, or fired. Just a little "refresher" training.

So, I'm not surprised by the amount of the Yatim payout

And, we still have the upcoming Coroner's Inquest to look forward to,
https://news.ontario.ca/mcscs/en/2019/07/inquest-into-the-death-of-sammy-yatim-announced.html?_ga=2.39321825.312071743.1568846423-827660128.1547049475
"The inquest will examine the circumstances surrounding Mr. Yatim's death. The jury may make recommendations aimed at preventing future deaths."


----------



## Cloud Cover

he'll be on the hook for some of that. The TPSB does not have to indemnify him for civil suits arising out of criminal actions. But you're right, in the end it will be the city and its taxpayers that pay the tab.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

mariomike said:
			
		

> For reference to the discussion,
> 
> The service brakes will be applied as long as the doors are open and the interlock  over-ride switch is off.
> 
> Not sure if that was the thinking at the time. But, the concern raised by the officer's lawyer in court about closing the doors from the outside was that with the secondary air released  , Sammy might hijack the 505 Dundas car for a wild ride through the west-end



Not sure if it was TO, but wasn't a police officer killed a couple of years ago when he was clipped by a snowplow that had been commandeered by someone.


----------



## brihard

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> he'll be on the hook for some of that. The TPSB does not have to indemnify him for civil suits arising out of criminal actions. But you're right, in the end it will be the city and its taxpayers that pay the tab.



The city/PSB and the police service itself will also probably be found separately liable. But you’re right, he kissed public indemnification goodbye as soon as he was convicted of attempted murder.


----------



## mariomike

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> But you're right, in the end it will be the city and its taxpayers that pay the tab.



And, we still have the Coroner's Inquest to look forward to.  op:




			
				Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Not sure if it was TO, but wasn't a police officer killed a couple of years ago when he was clipped by a snowplow that had been commandeered by someone.



http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/honour_roll/41

The guy got a Conditional Discharge.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/richard-kachkar-gets-conditional-discharge-1.4761285


----------



## mariomike

Sammy's inquest has been postponed.









						‘Suicide by cop’: Sammy Yatim inquest derailed by convicted officer’s ‘outrageous’ 11th-hour motion
					

“With this motion, Mr. Forcillo is pointing his finger at Sammy, when he already used the same finger on the trigger of his Glock, nine times,” father Bill Yatim said.




					www.thestar.com
				




Apparently, the familly lawsuits ( more than one ) against city taxpayers have not yet been settled.


----------

