# Weapons Training



## highlandranger (26 Mar 2006)

Does the Army Cadet program allow cadets to do weapons training with the old FN or Lee Enfield< or are the cadets on the Daisy air Rifle like the Junior Canadian Rangers?


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## GGHG_Cadet (26 Mar 2006)

Cadets are also allowed to shoot large bore I believe. As long as the RSO is certified for large bore (which I believe CIC RSOs are not certified for) then the cadets can shoot large bore i.e. Lee Enfields in .303, C7 etc.


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## ouyin2000 (26 Mar 2006)

Cadet Instructor RSOs may be certified on largebore, but they are not permitted to use it at camp. That is done by reserve/regular CF members.

Cadets *can* shoot everything from the Daisy air rifle, to the Lee Enfield .22 (converted .303), to the C12A1 (a 7.62mm olympic target rifle).

Daisy - most common rifle, used mostly at the home unit, and for competitions.
.22 - second most common rifle, used to familiarization at the unit.
.22 Anschutz - used for biathlon targets.
C7 - familiarization on CLI courses only. Some unit's affiliated unit will take some cadets out and show them how to shoot it, but this is rare.
C11 - target rifle used on the CL Marksman course only.
C12A1 - target rifle used on the CLI Marksman course only.


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## Lerch (26 Mar 2006)

The largest I've fired with cadets was .303 on the No4's. But that was for Ceremony of the Flags and they were blank rounds. Otherwise it was the .22 Anschutz with my Range Team.

And then there was the 9mm simunition...


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## ouyin2000 (26 Mar 2006)

Personally, i've fired old civil war era muskets, .22, 9mm, and 45cal handguns, as well as 12 and 16 guage shotguns

It helps to have an officer who's a member of the local Gun Club


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## my72jeep (26 Mar 2006)

ouyin2000 said:
			
		

> Personally, i've fired old civil war era muskets, .22, 9mm, and 45cal handguns, as well as 12 and 16 guage shotguns
> 
> It helps to have an officer who's a member of the local Gun Club



Your lucky to have done that, Because its now a chargable offence for a CIC Officer to allow Cadets to fire non serveice firearms. It's to the point that the kid next door who is a cadet and a member of the local gun club can not even with his father there, fire my 9mm. He is a cadet, no ifs ands buts or maybes. Its all got to do with liabilities.


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## ouyin2000 (26 Mar 2006)

Yea I know all about the legal issues with cadets, which is why my officer invited me to be his guest at the gun club for a day, where it is allowed for me to shoot his pistols, etc.

It was all clearly spelled out in the Comox Valley Gun Club rules.


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## my72jeep (26 Mar 2006)

ouyin2000 said:
			
		

> Yea I know all about the legal issues with cadets, which is why my officer invited me to be his guest at the gun club for a day, where it is allowed for me to shoot his pistols, etc.
> 
> It was all clearly spelled out in the Comox Valley Gun Club rules.



That was before not now Sorry We had a JAG briefing on it. I know it sucks but all it will take is one person to to get injured and all hell will break lose.


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## Burrows (26 Mar 2006)

Do you have any official documentation of this order?


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## q_1966 (27 Mar 2006)

It also has to do with wether the range is authorized for use by DND (If your not doing it as a civilian that is)


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## my72jeep (27 Mar 2006)

Kyle Burrows said:
			
		

> Do you have any official documentation of this order?



CRCO 1807 covers most of it. I am still looking for the memo banning the rest.http://www.central.cadets.ca/crco/1807.pdf


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## ouyin2000 (27 Mar 2006)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> CRCO 1807


Central Region Cadet Orders 

I'm in Pac Region...


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## my72jeep (27 Mar 2006)

ouyin2000 said:
			
		

> Central Region Cadet Orders
> 
> I'm in Pac Region...



Pac will have there own version of CRCO's it might have the same #.


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## ouyin2000 (27 Mar 2006)

PRCIs are only numbers with only 3 digits, and no, there is no PRCI on non-issue firearms.

PRCI's located here: http://www.cadets.net/pac/support/admin/prci_e.asp


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## ryanmann356 (28 Mar 2006)

Papke said:
			
		

> It also has to do with wether the range is authorized for use by DND (If your not doing it as a civilian that is)



Thats right, they have to meet very strict guidelines too, as demonstrated with the shutting down of the Vernon large bore range last year. :-\


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## jbeach95 (29 Mar 2006)

I was range staff for a cadet C7 familiarization shoot last year (with a reserve RSO). This was part of 4RCR's new policy of doing more with our affiliated cadet unit.

We just had to remember, it's a firearm or a rifle, not a weapon. Do not use the term "enemy" or anything like it (eg. "Charlie"). No figure 11 or figure 12 targets. And automatic fire is out of the question.


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## ouyin2000 (29 Mar 2006)

JBeach said:
			
		

> We just had to remember, it's a firearm or a rifle, not a weapon. Do not use the term "enemy" or anything like it (eg. "Charlie"). No figure 11 or figure 12 targets. And automatic fire is out of the question.


Exactly! That's one of the biggest downfalls of cadets, is that we want to stimulate an interest in the forces, and do more things with our AFUs...yet we aren't allowed to learn the language of the army :


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## jbeach95 (29 Mar 2006)

Well, I can see the point in not teaching children how to kill people. The point of the shoot was for marksmanship, not necessarily becoming an effective killer. In our politically correct nation, teaching kids about military tactics is frowned upon. If the cadets are interested enough in the army, they can join it and THEN learn about how to kill Charlie.

What I'm really trying to say is that the language of the army isn't really that important. It can be picked up very quickly. The skills that the cadets learn are far more important to making a future soldier. Forgive my ignorance, but how often do cadets use semi-automatic rifles like the C7? Whether it's a "rifle" or a "weapon" doesn't really matter.

And yes, one of the main purposes for my unit to be working more closely with the cadets is to increase recruiting. Maybe it would be possible to include cadets who are seriously considering joining the unit on some of our (reserve) shoots or even exercises. They may not be able to participate much (lack of qualifications and tactical training), but at least they could get an impression of what we do. I think I remember something like this happening once during my time in, but it's rare.


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## ouyin2000 (29 Mar 2006)

JBeach said:
			
		

> What I'm really trying to say is that the language of the army isn't really that important. It can be picked up very quickly. The skills that the cadets learn are far more important to making a future soldier. Forgive my ignorance, but how often do cadets use semi-automatic rifles like the C7? Whether it's a "rifle" or a "weapon" doesn't really matter.


Correct, it doesn't really matter...but someone higher up decided it does matter :

And in a typical cadet career, they would only be able to use the C7 once (maybe twice if they're lucky) in any 7 year career.



> And yes, one of the main purposes for my unit to be working more closely with the cadets is to increase recruiting. Maybe it would be possible to include cadets who are seriously considering joining the unit on some of our (reserve) shoots or even exercises. They may not be able to participate much (lack of qualifications and tactical training), but at least they could get an impression of what we do. I think I remember something like this happening once during my time in, but it's rare.


I have unintentionally been included in a FTX with the C Scots a few years ago.
I showed up at the training facility (which the reserves use also) for a cadet FTX, and my CO was there, and said that it was cancelled and for me to go home. By that time though, my ride had already left, so I had to phone home and have my father come back to pick me up. In the meantime, the reserves were starting some of their section attacks out on the field, and their Pl Comd invited my CO and I to watch them throwing their flashbangs and practicing their movements. He was explaining everything to me as it was happening, and it was all VERY interesting. I think that is the first time i realised that I wanted to be in the military (about 5 years ago).


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## ryanmann356 (31 Mar 2006)

JBeach said:
			
		

> Do not use the term "enemy" or anything like it (eg. "Charlie").



hehe interesting, when i took Riflecoach last year we unofficially call our targets "Herman the German" but they are still the official cadet targets.  We just made sure the officers didnt hear us when we were inside the mod tent at the range, talking about all the lead we pumped into Herman.  ;D


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## Burrows (31 Mar 2006)

ryanmann356 said:
			
		

> hehe interesting, when i took Riflecoach last year we unofficially call our targets "Herman the German" but they are still the official cadet targets.  We just made sure the officers didnt hear us when we were inside the mod tent at the range, talking about all the lead we pumped into Herman.  ;D


If this were WW2....you still wouldn't be cool.


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## ryanmann356 (31 Mar 2006)

Kyle Burrows said:
			
		

> If this were WW2....you still wouldn't be cool.



Awh Kyle I'm hurt...Wait a sec, this reminds me of the other thread where we were discussing how to type sarcastically.


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## Sig_Des (31 Mar 2006)

ryanmann356 said:
			
		

> hehe interesting, when i took Riflecoach last year we unofficially call our targets "Herman the German" but they are still the official cadet targets.  We just made sure the officers didnt hear us when we were inside the mod tent at the range, talking about all the lead we pumped into Herman.  ;D



Until you've charged his trench, sprayed him on full auto, and bayonetted him, you are not on a first name basis with Herman.

Worry more about making sure your marksmanship is on, rather then "pumping lead into Herman". Be professional about marksmanship principles, and having effective groupings on the "target", and you will be a better shot.

Accuracy vs. "Blowing Herman away". I'll take accuracy anyday. The man/woman who is calm behind the weapon, will be the better shot.


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## ryanmann356 (31 Mar 2006)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> Accuracy vs. "Blowing Herman away". I'll take accuracy anyday. The man/woman who is calm behind the weapon, will be the better shot.



awh come on cant anybody enjoy a joke?  Obviously we're not on the range fantasizing about blowing Vietcong into oblivion or bayonetting Herman it was just a joke some friends of mine made in a mod tent a long time ago  :


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## ouyin2000 (31 Mar 2006)

"Herman The German" has been around a lot longer than you and your friends might think, so don't go thinking that you're the first people to coin the phrase.


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## badpup (31 Mar 2006)

Grow a life every one................... Quit the bickering
The UN ban on "Child Soldiers" has put a PC twist on the entire cadet program, Army, Air. and Naval.
Gone and long forgotten are firing real weapons at unit level, patrolling exercises and such.

I for one would like to see a more balanced return to a more military like cadet program, I would love to see affiliated units take more time with "their Cadets"
I would love for the DND to take a more active recruiting role within the cadet movement and within the high schools of the nation.

But most of all...... I would LOVE the media to portray the best of Canada as the defenders of our Freedoms, and ambassadors of democracy that they are.

My rant as a former Cadet, P/Res and CIC


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## Burrows (31 Mar 2006)

Yes, brilliant idea.  Lets just up and quit the UN so that our youth program will allow children to run around with guns.


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## badpup (31 Mar 2006)

Did I say we should quit the UN?, I must have missed that.
Perhaps I need to be a bit more specific.
In the older days of the Cadet Program when shooting was shooting whether it was Enfield, Anschutz, or FN there was a lot more interest in Cadets from the public, and a lot more interest in the military from the Cadets.
Case in point: A recent Cadet participant at Cougar Salvo, had the opportunity to fire real weapons, and participate in other areas of the Ex.He returned a changed Cadet, and now looking seriously at a career in the Infantry


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## ryanmann356 (31 Mar 2006)

ouyin2000 said:
			
		

> "Herman The German" has been around a lot longer than you and your friends might think, so don't go thinking that you're the first people to coin the phrase.



i NEVER said we coined the term, it was a term they heard from somwhere, I dont remember exactly.   :


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## Franko (1 Apr 2006)

badpup said:
			
		

> Gone and long forgotten are firing real weapons at unit level, patrolling exercises and such.
> 
> I for one would like to see a more balanced return to a more military like cadet program, I would love to see affiliated units take more time with "their Cadets"



Hmmm...no they're not gone, and we spend lots of time with our affiliated cadet corps (we have 2)   

Regards


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## ryanmann356 (5 Apr 2006)

badpup said:
			
		

> In the older days of the Cadet Program when shooting was shooting whether it was Enfield, Anschutz, or FN there was a lot more interest in Cadets from the public, and a lot more interest in the military from the Cadets.



It took just one person to make a mistake to make the whole program change.  My uncle was a cadet in the 70's and some of the stories i've heard were pretty surprising.  Cadets getting to fire many round of ammunition from the FNs and .303's and the such.  Although I've never heard of any cadet getting seriousely hurt while on the range, I can see why some parents wouldn't want their kids doing those kind of things, but then why let your child join ARMY Cadets?  Enroll him in scouts or brownies or something.


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## badpup (6 Apr 2006)

ryanmann356 said:
			
		

> It took just one person to make a mistake to make the whole program change.  My uncle was a cadet in the 70's and some of the stories i've heard were pretty surprising.  Cadets getting to fire many round of ammunition from the FNs and .303's and the such.  Although I've never heard of any cadet getting seriousely hurt while on the range, I can see why some parents wouldn't want their kids doing those kind of things, but then why let your child join ARMY Cadets?  Enroll him in scouts or brownies or something.



I was An Air Cadet in the 70's, P/RES and then CIL in the 80's, NOT ONCE did any Cadet I was enrolled with, or taught to shoot in my Squadron, nor worked with at the local Army Corps EVER INJURED by firing a real weapon. This Air rifle Garbage is just that.......
There is no real way to teach "marksmanship" with a toy. they are un-reliable in consistancy of charge, far worse than the DND ammo we used as Cadets. I could easily score 80's on our range with the Enfield, 90's with our Anschutz, I am lucky to pull off a 70 with a "Daisy"


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## Caleix (6 Apr 2006)

I've been reading this topic for some time now, and I'm wondering how some of you can compare an AIR RIFLE.....to a 5.56mm C-7 rifle....i was in air cadets for 5 years, and Range was my reason for staying in it. now I'm in the primary reserves in an infantry platoon, with experience firing both the 853C air rifle and the C-7 i don't really understand how the two can be compared, because they both provide   basic marksmenship principals, like keeping the butt firmly against the shoulder, proper sight alignment and all of the BASICS, which is what cadets should be learning in my mind. My understanding for the reason cadets do any marksmenship training is so they can Familiarize themselves to it, don't get me wrong, i would have enjoyed being on the range with an FN when i was a cadet but other then giving the cadet a huge ass bruse on his shoulder, (cause he hasn't been able to get a firm grasp of Marksmenship principals) I don't see the need for it. You have to start somewhere, even if it is a little air rifle...I know I'm a better shot now because i was able to learn on a smaller weapon and learn the basic principals then rather then have to go into BMQ like some people i was with and not be able to get a sight picture.


Caleix


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## Franko (9 Apr 2006)

Piper said:
			
		

> And they did a darn fine job of supporting us.
> 
> (I was 2332)



Do I know you?

Regards


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## Scott (10 Apr 2006)

Good God, how many times has this can of worms been opened?

Why Can't we Fire C-7's or Better?

This is Cadets not Boy Scouts

Combat Training in the Cadet Program

Should RCAC Allow Combat Training?

DND Making Cadets Less Military Every Year

Cadets Becoming Less and Less Interesting

Cadets Becoming Too Much Like Boy Scouts

Military Games for Cadets



			
				ouyin2000 said:
			
		

> I have unintentionally been included in a FTX with the C Scots a few years ago.
> I showed up at the training facility (which the reserves use also) for a cadet FTX, and my CO was there, and said that it was cancelled and for me to go home. By that time though, my ride had already left, so I had to phone home and have my father come back to pick me up. In the meantime, the reserves were starting some of their section attacks out on the field, and their Pl Comd invited my CO and I to watch them throwing their flashbangs and practicing their movements. He was explaining everything to me as it was happening, and it was all VERY interesting. I think that is the first time i realised that I wanted to be in the military (about 5 years ago).



Good for you and good on the C Scots for having you there to watch. This would be a prime example of the CCM fostering an interest in the CF. But, as you pointed out, you were already a member of the Cadet Corps and this event is what made you realize that you wanted to join the CF. My point is that you joined Cadets before this and, by your account, had not considered the CF as a career before this. So, I find it easy to conclude that there are other kids out there who join a _Youth Group_ in their area not caring if it is Cadets, Scouts or what have you. Some get the bug in them, others do not, the CCM is not there to train you to be a soldier, it is a youth group. STOP.



			
				Sig_Des said:
			
		

> Until you've charged his trench, sprayed him on full auto, and bayonetted him, you are not on a first name basis with Herman.
> 
> Worry more about making sure your marksmanship is on, rather then "pumping lead into Herman". Be professional about marksmanship principles, and having effective groupings on the "target", and you will be a better shot.
> 
> Accuracy vs. "Blowing Herman away". I'll take accuracy anyday. The man/woman who is calm behind the weapon, will be the better shot.



Wiser words rarely spoken. + 1. 



			
				badpup said:
			
		

> Grow a life every one................... Quit the bickering
> The UN ban on "Child Soldiers" has put a PC twist on the entire cadet program, Army, Air. and Naval.
> Gone and long forgotten are firing real weapons at unit level, patrolling exercises and such.
> 
> ...



So never mind that kids with guns is bad, let's give the Cadets full fighting order and do section attacks on the school lawn  : It's responsible and nothing more. 

I believe that the Cadet movement can be an effective recruiting tool for the CF but it is not a be all end all. There are plenty of members of this site who have progressed to the CF through Cadets and probably just as many who went their own route. Neither makes a better soldier. See this dead horsey for the incentives offered and debate that raged against it, you will see the opinions of serving soldiers and Cadets alike. *Not to open that kettle of fish again, just supplied as supplementary info.*

Are you saying that Cadets are the defenders of our freedom and ambassadors of democracy? I was unclear wether you were making that point about the CF or Cadets, please clarify.



			
				badpup said:
			
		

> Did I say we should quit the UN?, I must have missed that.
> Perhaps I need to be a bit more specific.
> In the older days of the Cadet Program when shooting was shooting whether it was Enfield, Anschutz, or FN there was a lot more interest in Cadets from the public, and a lot more interest in the military from the Cadets.
> Case in point: A recent Cadet participant at Cougar Salvo, had the opportunity to fire real weapons, and participate in other areas of the Ex.He returned a changed Cadet, and now looking seriously at a career in the Infantry



And there are probably just as many kids out there who wish to join a youth organization, they don't have to want to be in the Military to join Cadets, that is not a requirement and shouldn't be, either. It keeps kids off the streets, out of trouble, hopefully with good marks at school and allows them to meet new people and maybe get the chance to go away. Some excel at it and decide to go further with it and into a CF career. Others age out and go on with life. Again, it is not a prerequisite for a career in the CF and never will be, see the linked thread above for details. 



			
				ryanmann356 said:
			
		

> It took just one person to make a mistake to make the whole program change.  My uncle was a cadet in the 70's and some of the stories i've heard were pretty surprising.  Cadets getting to fire many round of ammunition from the FNs and .303's and the such.  Although I've never heard of any cadet getting seriousely hurt while on the range, I can see why some parents wouldn't want their kids doing those kind of things, but then why let your child join ARMY Cadets?  Enroll him in scouts or brownies or something.



Yeah, I'll give you that one, there probably was one or two mistakes that ended the "fun" for you guys. But it was also a reflection of the times. No longer do women stay home and raise children, they go out into the work force just like anyone. See my point? Times change as do social values with them.

Have you ever thought that some parents and kids alike can't find a program other than Cadets in their area? The child wants to meet new people and have some fun and the parents want the kid off the street and in a safe environment - does it matter what uniform they wear? Trying to remain exclusive like that will win you no favours.



			
				badpup said:
			
		

> I was An Air Cadet in the 70's, P/RES and then CIL in the 80's, NOT ONCE did any Cadet I was enrolled with, or taught to shoot in my Squadron, nor worked with at the local Army Corps EVER INJURED by firing a real weapon. This Air rifle Garbage is just that.......
> There is no real way to teach "marksmanship" with a toy. they are un-reliable in consistancy of charge, far worse than the DND ammo we used as Cadets. I could easily score 80's on our range with the Enfield, 90's with our Anschutz, I am lucky to pull off a 70 with a "Daisy"



The principles of marksmanship do not apply to an air rifle? Good that you never witnessed someone get injured and I am glad you were able to experience all of this. But what is the point in teaching the Cadet marksmanship with a C-7? That Cadet will learn all of it again on BMQ. Read the dead horse thread for further case examples.

Also, I find the term "toy" a bit offensive. If the Cadets were to treat the air rifle as a "toy" then there would probably be injuries. But they don't so there aren't any - good on them and their leaders for that and for teaching them to safely use the equipment. C-7 or BB gun, you should treat them both the same, no? Treat any rifle as if it were loaded, right?



			
				Caleix said:
			
		

> I've been reading this topic for some time now, and I'm wondering how some of you can compare an AIR RIFLE.....to a 5.56mm C-7 rifle....i was in air cadets for 5 years, and Range was my reason for staying in it. now I'm in the primary reserves in an infantry platoon, with experience firing both the 853C air rifle and the C-7 i don't really understand how the two can be compared, because they both provide   basic marksmenship principals, like keeping the butt firmly against the shoulder, proper sight alignment and all of the BASICS, which is what cadets should be learning in my mind. My understanding for the reason cadets do any marksmenship training is so they can Familiarize themselves to it, don't get me wrong, i would have enjoyed being on the range with an FN when i was a cadet but other then giving the cadet a huge *** bruse on his shoulder, (cause he hasn't been able to get a firm grasp of Marksmenship principals) I don't see the need for it. You have to start somewhere, even if it is a little air rifle...I know I'm a better shot now because i was able to learn on a smaller weapon and learn the basic principals then rather then have to go into BMQ like some people i was with and not be able to get a sight picture.
> 
> 
> Caleix



So here is my poster boy Cadet. He learned the _basics_ of marksmanship in Cadets and feels it does apply to his work with the rifle in the PRes. He says he is a better shot now because of the principles he learned in Cadets. 

I think the Cadet Organization is great for a few things:
-Give a toung kid a group to belong to and goals to achieve within that group.
-Foster an interest in the CF and hopefully spark a career.
-Travel.
-New people and experiences.
-A 16 year old pilot or parachutist - you don't often see that.
-Leadership in theory and practice.
-Hopefully better marks at school.
-They are off the street and not trying to break into my truck or smashing my windows and riling up my dog.

If a kid comes out of it not knowing how to fire a rifle and with zero interest in the CF but does gain alot of friends, self respect, happy times and it keeps him from smoking dope, boozing his brains out and out of jail during his teenage years then we have won, haven't we? That kid may go on to be CI or CIC, a valuable member of the community who is giving back to the organization that gave to him.


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## Caleix (10 Apr 2006)

wow,...poster boy...normally higherups just call me "hey you!" or "Terd". thanks for laying it straight Scott

Caleix


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## Scott (10 Apr 2006)

*Hey you, the poster boy turd!*

Better?


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## Caleix (12 Apr 2006)

yeah that fits better, lmao!

Caleix


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## Caleix (13 Apr 2006)

seeing as there is no relevence to this roll-on topic anymore, could one of the mods be so kind and lock up?

Caleix


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## Scott (13 Apr 2006)

Ask and ye shall receive.

Usual end topic statement applies - Have something meaningful to contribute? PM a Mod.


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