# The Agent Orange and Its Repercussions Thread



## Sandy Skipton

WE NEED INFORMATION PLEASE
In '64 '65 or '66 my husband was playing soccer at CFB Chatham, while stationed there. At some time during this time, the soccer team travelled to CFB Gagetown and something happened... The soccer field was lovely and green and in great shape on the Friday evening the team arrived but the next morning it was dead grass and mud. My husband can not remember the actual date that this happened. Then in '82 he retired and it was at that time that the Government released info that AgentOrange had been tested in Gagetown during the mid '60s. Tested by the Americans for use in Vietnam. His symptoms match all symptoms that the vietnam vets have complained about. In '82 little was known and he said he had joined the service to serve, not to complain so he did not complain to anyone. That is how the 'OLD' military types were taught. Doctors at that time had no information that would cause them to questions his symptoms so they did not think to make 'special' note his problems.

In 2003 he was diagnosed with cancer, which is now declared terminal and for the sake of his family, his wife and our youngest child born with problems, he had agreed to submit a claim to DVA. Now we must prove that he was in Gagetown. Problem is... 
He does not remember any of the names of teammates...
CFB Chatham has closed no base history files available... 
We have had all sports news at CFB Gagetown and the surrounding area checked but the sports news only goes back to about 1974. 
We have reached a dead end.

I am hoping that someone out there has a similar story and might add info to what we might need... I am sure others have a similar history so we now have the internet to make the world smaller and that is one method I am using to contact anyone that knows anything about the soccer teams of Chatham or a Gagetown Competition that would fit the above discription. 
Please email         info.needed@ns.sympatico.ca


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## Sharpey

Did a quick search...

Source: http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-71-1413-9130/conflict_war/vietnam/clip9

"Agent Orange is one of the most infamous and dirtiest legacies of the Vietnam War. Ottawa always denied that it cooperated with the United States in testing chemical warfare agents for Vietnam. A recently released report states that in June 1966 the American army tested Agent Orange at Base Gagetown in New Brunswick. As two NDP representatives uncover the facts, CBC's Brian Stewart wants to know why it took the Canadian military so long to investigate.

A 1970 report from national defence to parliament stated that "no research carried out by the Department of National Defence has affected the use of chemicals in Vietnam." Former defence minister Paul Hellyer says such tests were actually routine, but he attempts to downplay the issue by pointing out that Agent Orange was tested as a tactical weapon, not a chemical weapon.

The Uniroyal plant in Elmira, Ont., was one of seven suppliers producing Agent Orange for the U.S. military."

Credits:

Medium: Television
Program: The National
Episode: Agent Gagetown
Broadcast Date: Jan. 23, 1981
Host: Knowlton Nash, Reporter: Brian Stewart
Guest(s): Simon de Jong, Paul Hellyer, Terry Seargent
Duration: 3:46



source: http://www.unknownnews.net/050219d-15tcan.html

"1965: Prisoners at the Holmesburg State Prison in Philadelphia are subjected to dioxin, the highly toxic chemical component of Agent Orange used in Vietnam. The men are later studied for development of cancer, which indicates that Agent Orange had been a suspected carcinogen all along. [Agent orange was tested at CFB Gagetown, New Brunswick, Canada, which is the largest NATO training facility in Canada for ground operations training, and in the temperate rainforests of British Columbia]"


source: http://www.cbc.ca/asithappens/vietnam/part3.html

"In the early 1980s, the federal government admitted that the Canadian military tested Agent Orange at CFB Gagetown during the 1960s. At first the government claimed that there were tests - but only to determine whether the chemical was suitable to clear vegetation at Gagetown." 

Looks like it is well published, stories tell the agent was used there. And as I found out, Agent Orange was developed in Ontario!


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## Sandy Skipton

Thank You Sharpie for taking an interes in my request.... There is also info available via request at 'Directorate of Access to Information and Privacy' National Defense Headquarters, Ottawa. It is about 82 pages which is a 'disclosed in part' package #A-2004-00207. This package further discloses in a briefing dated 24 Jan 85, I quote 

"In 1964 a spray application accident occured. 2, 4-d PLUS, 4, 5-T was being applied by fixed wing aircraft. A temperature inversion and increasing soil temperatures suspended the spray above the target species. Several hours later the increased winds carried the spray to the upper Gagetownj and Sheffield area shown on the map as area 3."

Documents sumitted to DVA were not questioned concerning the Agent Orange usage at Gagetown. The DVA request is for proof that my husband was in the area. I left my message here since I know that a lot of serving guys were base brats and even their dads might have played soccer. Most ARMY are very sport minded. Dads might have pictures of teams. They might be military sport history buffs. If this request is passed around and talked about... Info might just show up... It is a rather long time ago. My husband might have been the youngest on the team and the other members may have already passed on.   So you see, I am fishing in the dark for some way to prove he was in the location when the spraying was done. Deeper question is "How many members suffered and perhaps died, due to the use of AgentOrange on Canadian soil and did not know what their problems were a result of?" but I guess that is a story for down the road.


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## Sandy Skipton

Since those, who have read this post, know nothing that can help out, I would ask a favour. Would you please print out the request and put it on ANY bulletin boards in your area that would be seen by people that are about 65 years of age, perferably military people. There just HAS to be someone, someplace that would have the info that we need. Please take a moment to help out one of the men who devoted his time to defending our country. 
Even though it was during peacetime you would be amazed at the sacrifices that many have made during service. There are many stories out there that can add to the WW1 and WW2 stories that very few of our peacetime forces will share, since they look at it as "I chose to serve and not to be a hero" These words also fit our aging veterans. No service member looks upon themselves as the heros that we see.


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## camochick

Have you tried contacting media outlets and seeing if anyone can do a story on it. You probably have, just thought I would throw that out there though. Good luck in your search, and my thoughts go out to your family. Take care.


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## Bruce Monkhouse

I will send this thread  to our "expert" 60's guy, Art Johson, one of the few from that era[and before actually] that we know is here often.

EDIT: and to Bill Smy.


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## Art Johnson

Just off the top of my head I really can't help you. The crux of your problem seems to be whether your husband was there. Maybe if we knew his unit it might help. I'm not sure if Part II Orders were still in effect at that time or not but normally you cannot just leave your unit without some kind of a record being kept of it. You may have to get to the Regimental Diary and see if any mention of it is in there.
A chap I was in The RCR with fought for years with DVA over a similar type of case. He was involved in a scheme with other Canadian Soldiers where they pass over an area where an Atomic Bomb had been exploded shortly before they went through the area. His claim was for cancer and after years he finally won his case. The Toronto Star gave it big coverage. Ken died about 10 years ago and his wife died last year.


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## Sandy Skipton

Thank you Art Johnson ... and yes I realize that this will definitely take time.  My husband was AirForce, served CFB Chatham, NB, Jul,1964-Oct,1966, E Tech A (maintained batteries and light bulbs in aircraft) but he worked as  ISTech 521 during 66 while he waited to start his course since he had remustered to become a Flight Simulator Tech. I expect his Squadrons were 416 & 433 while he was in Chatham. We have requested his Pers file and medical file from Access Information Ottawa and expect these files to arrive any day now. DVA has already had access to this data and do not question the use of AgentOrange in Gagetown..

Yes, even Squadron Units keep history but not day to day diaries and yes AirForce Bases keep history and I expected they would retain sport info. I have checked on locating this type of info. CFB Chatham was closed and it seems all data was moved to be archived in cardboard boxes in some warehouse in Ottawa, kinda hard to locate. I am now checking with Mobile Equipment records to learn if they maintain any info... cause the team would have been moved by Military Transport but I understand that the info is NOT retained for very long. I have now moved to civilian sources like local newspapers that might have information about the team playing against local teams, this could give me access to the names of other team members. I have had my son check sources in Gagetown, he ran into a brick wall and found no info before the year 1974. I have also ran into rumours that a fire in Ottawa around 1974 destroyed a lot of information that might have helped out. I do have all the info I need concerning the spraying of AgentOrange at Gagetown and the human results as summed up by studies in the US.

So now you can see why I have gone to forums to try to find anyone that might have a memory of the time. I have not included my husbands name cause it is rather unique and we have two sons and a grandson that are serving at this time and there are only about 25 persons with the surname living in Canada and 17 of those are related... To sum up, what we need is to have anyone that has any knowledge of military soccer, that was played in the maritimes during 64-66 and especially in Gagetown or Chatham, to share whatever information they might have. I came to the army forum because lots of you guys are following in your dads footsteps and I know your dads were just as sport minded as you likely are. Did any of your dads play soccer? Were your dads sick? Did they get exposed? Are your moms entitled to having this info as well? 

I can not put my husband through newspaper interviews at this time but I will not drop bringing this to the attention of those that can help and I thank you all for letting me post to your forum.  Thank you very much.


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## Art Johnson

Miksam try posting to this web site.

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=collections/cmdp/mainmenu/group03


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## Sandy Skipton

thanks Art... I tryed that site and did not find an area to permit me to post.

btw.. this info will be coming out in the Legion Magazine during the summer and hopefully in the RCAFA Magazine(RCAFA has not gotten back to me yet).. I also have a library staff that have offered to research their microfilm of newspapers (in the Chatham area)... actually I am quite pleased with the assistance that I am getting from some sources, but alas, I expect the info may not be found. Spring time 2004 is coming and I will keep hammering    :threat:


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## Peter_Luckhurst

i am looking for any one in RCASC at gagetown in 1966.e-mail me at peter_luckhurst@yahoo.com.it is about agent orange deployment.i will not be able to check till next wk-end as i drive truck and am gone from mon till fri.


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## Bruce Monkhouse

Todays Ottawa Sun

http://canoe.ca/NewsStand/OttawaSun/Editorial/
Tue, May 17, 2005

A poisonous policy
It's shocking to think that even one member of the Canadian Armed Forces could have been exposed to the herbicide known as Agent Orange, a pernicious substance that has been linked to an array of illnesses. 

But what is even more horrifying is that it happened to scores of our soldiers during peacetime, and they were poisoned right here in their own country. 
The Department of National Defence has confirmed that in 1966, U.S. forces doused forested areas of CFB Gagetown, N.B., with the infamous chemical defoliant, testing it for clearing jungle during the Vietnam War. 

For decades, the Canadian military has refused to acknowledge the Gagetown horror ever happened or any connection between Agent Orange and sick vets. 
But now, as the Sun's Greg Weston reported on the weekend, our government has quietly accepted a medical compensation claim from a retired Canadian brigadier general stricken with leukemia. 

The secrecy surrounding the events of nearly four decades ago is just as alarming as the fact that the testing took place at all. 
Even now that the government has tacitly accepted that Agent Orange caused the leukemia that claimed the life of Brig. Gen. Gordon Sellar, it seems to be doing nothing to seek out other members of the military who may have been exposed to the chemical and offer them compensation. 

Veterans Affairs Minister Albina Guarnieri said yesterday that her department will take care of anyone who comes forward with a legitimate claim. That isn't good enough. 
For the victims, this is a matter of life and death. They ingested poison solely as a result of service to their country. The minister should not rest until her department has contacted each and every one of those suffering from Agent Orange-related diseases and provided them both with an apology and compensation. 

Sadly, in many cases that money will have to go to the next of kin. 

Tue, May 17, 2005 

No Orange coverup, feds insist
But vets will have to prove right to cash

By KATHLEEN HARRIS, Parliamentary Bureau
http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/OttawaSun/News/2005/05/17/1042903-sun.html
   
The Liberal government yesterday vowed to compensate sick and dying soldiers affected by Agent Orange, but has no plan to track down those potentially poisoned by the toxic chemical. 
Under fire in the House of Commons yesterday, Veterans Affairs Minister Albina Guarnieri denied the government tried to hush-up the danger. She insisted veterans will receive disability pensions where "sufficient evidence" finds a link between their medical condition and exposure to the deadly dioxin. 

"We will always go that extra mile to assist any veteran in need," she said. 
Veterans Affairs has granted two pensions for afflictions related to Agent Orange, but 19 claims have been rejected since 2000. The herbicide, used by Americans during the Vietnam War to clear trees and ground cover, was tested at CFB Gagetown in 1966 and is known to cause cancer, diabetes and birth defects. 

'SHAMEFUL DENIAL' 

The Canadian military long refused to acknowledge its use or draw any connection between Agent Orange and sick vets. On Sunday, Sun Media revealed the government quietly paid out a pension claim 10 months ago. 
Calling it a "shameful denial," Conservative MP and associate defence critic Dave MacKenzie accused the government of ignoring the plight of sick veterans. He urged the feds to immediately identify and alert all those potentially exposed to Agent Orange. 

"For decades, the Canadian military refused to acknowledge the Gagetown horror even happened," he said. "The government is currently addressing volunteers of chemical warfare testing, but it is silent on its involvement for those who were tested unknowingly." 
Veterans Affairs spokeswoman Janice Summerby said the Defence Department couldn't supply a list of names of those potentially affected or explain why it was not available. Veterans will learn about the issue through media reports or via an upcoming departmental newsletter, she said. 

But Cliff Chadderton, chairman of the National Council of Veterans Associations, pointed to the U.S.'s "presumptive policy," which gives the benefit of the doubt to ailing soldiers. Canada should hastily follow suit, he said, by striking a task force to contact and compensate sick veterans. 
He blamed the inability to draft a list on bureaucratic bungling between Veterans Affairs and Defence departments. 

"There's been no liaison between the two. That's the sad, sad part of it." 

WHO TO CALL 

Any veteran who thinks they may be suffering from a medical condition related to Agent Orange can apply for disability pension benefits by calling 1-866-522-2022 or contacting their local veterans' organization, such as the Royal Canadian Legion.  
kathleen.harris@tor.sunpub.com


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## SNEN833

Hello

My Father In Law was a member of the Black Watch Regiment during the 1960's at CFB Gagetown in Oromocto, NB.  He served in the military for 35 year and has now been retired for about 5 years.  About a year age he was diagnosed with chronic lymphocytic leukemia.  In my research about the disease I have learned that Agent Orange was used at CFB Gagetown during the exact time that my Father In-Law served in the Black Watch Regiment.  In fact he served with Canadian Brigadier General Gordon Seller who was also stricken with the same leukemia and who recently died.

An article I have read states:

"In a landmark decision, the department of veterans affairs has ruled that Sellar's cancer was caused by his exposure to Agent Orange. "The department is aware that Agent Orange was used as a herbicide for defoliation on the training grounds of CFB Gagetown," the confidential memorandum states. 

"The department accepts the medical opinion (of Sellar's doctors) and the results of published U.S. medical research that establishes a causitive relationship between Agent Orange exposure and the development of chronic lymphocytic leukemia." 

If you have additional information on this topic I would greatly appreciate it.  It is truly a shame that a man, who is the epitome of health his entire life, will be struck down by this disease.....

Thank You

Shawn Read
Sread@tru.ca


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## Gunnerlove

My father server in Vietnam for two tours as part of an exchange program. The sick thing is that while he was never exposed to the defoliants in Vietnam he was exposed by our government in Gagetown. 

Birth defects are also covered by the VA in the states, Canada should follow the same policy.


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## CH1

There will sadly be more in the "Baby Boomers"  I was a kid in the 50's in Winnipeg. It was used as a test bed along with several other areas, to test the effectiveness & study long term effects of "Orange"
Best of luck
Cheers


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## Sandy Skipton

May 21st at 20:36 after 3 weeks of living in the hospital with my dear husband, *Mike Skipton*, our ordeal ended as he peacefully passed away, hopefully to a more pleasant place... 
At this time he has been transferred to another hospital for an autopsy, along with all the data that we have collected concerning AgentOrange. A pathologist will be attempting to verify if our questions concerning his possible exposure are fact or fiction and if it is found that we are 'barking up the wrong tree' and his illness can not be connected to the poison then I will quietly get on with my life BUT if anything is found to verify his being exposed I will fight to gain him the respect that our government owes to those that have been taken prematurely simply because of denial and lies. It has been terrible to have run into dead ends as we looked for the data we needed to 'verify' our claim without the help of those that could have given us the answers. Mike and I have both felt that our government has failed us. At this time I have a son, daughter-in-law and a grandson that are serving at Gagetown. 
I am proud that: 

Ronald (Sgt, retired, died 1992 in SunnyBrook) my dad
Betty (civilian supply staff about 10yrs, died at home 1990) my mom
Teddy (LanceJack, killed 1964 at CFB Kingston Ont at age 23) my brother
*Mike*(M-Cpl, regular forces and Capt, reserve forces retired, died May 21 2005)- my husband, 
Myself(Capt, reserve forces retired)..  
Sue(Cpl,retired)- my daughter, 
Perry(Sgt), my son, 
Tony(WO)- my son, 
Steph(AdminClerk)- my daughter-in-law
Chris(Private)- my grandson, 

all chose to serve and protect the people of Canada and very sad that when Mike asked Canada (government) to help him they turned their backs. The rejection letters state that he did not seek medical attention for AgentOrange exposure at the time of the exposure(mid 1960s), therefore, there was no documentation on his records to PROVE his claim. Yet, the government denied for so long that Agent Orange was sprayed in Canada. This is a hard night for me so I will just shushhh for now but I will let you all know if the pathologist gives me information that will back our story.

Thank you all for the help you tryed to provide... 'signed with tears'


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## dalriada

Hi...

For years I have been searching for information on Agent Orange use not only in CFB Gagetown but also throughout New Brunswick. 

My father, Robert Dobbie, served with the 51st Highland Division, British 8th Army during WWII, then after emigrating to Canada joined the Canadian Black Watch 2nd Battalion in 1957 and served until 1971. Retiring because of poor health. He died in 1999 from a rare cancer attributed to exposure to Agent Orange. 

The following letter I have quoted below was sent by myself to the CBC this weekend. Please read it and if you have similar experiences or know of others, please post them to this site. 

I intend on following this up with both the Minister of Veterans Affairs and the Minister of Defense. I have already been stone-walled by both of them last year. But I will fight this and in order to do this, I need as much information from others who suffer illnesses from the Agent Orange that was copiously sprayed in CFB Gagetown in the sixties. 

Please read and post. Thanks. If you wish to email me, I can be reached at kdobbie2@cogeco.ca

I sent the following letter to the CBC on May 21, 2005

Dear Sir or Madam:

Would you please do a story, perhaps even a lead story on the landmark decision by Veterans Affairs to pay compensation to a soldier who was exposed to Agent Orange in CFB Gagetown. My father was in the 2nd Battalion Black Watch and was in the training area many times in the early sixties and as a result he was unknowingly exposed many times to the Agent Orange that was sprayed there along with hundreds of other soldiers.

They slept, worked and ate in a toxic environment without the knowledge that they were in the midst of one of the most lethal chemicals known today as Dioxin.

My father died in 1999 from a rare cancer, cancer of the biliary ducts. There is a 2nd Battalion Black Watch Association in Nova Scotia and many of them have died of various forms of cancer, diabetes, etc. These diseases are now recognized by the U.S. Veterans Affairs as being caused by Agent Orange with diabetes recently being added to the growing list of diseases and disorders directly attributed to Agent Orange. 

In 1959, PM Diefenbaker's Government signed an agreement with the U.S. Department of Defense to allow the spraying of defoliant chemicals in CFB Gagetown as a test for the effectiveness of the chemicals in the actual defoliation of broadleaf forests. The testing went on officially until 1963, unofficially it was still being used as late as 1969. It is interesting to note that not only the US government used it successfully as a defoliant. 

The US recognized it's tremendous capabilities of stripping broadleaf forests of any kind of hiding place and it was used extensively for that purpose in the jungles of Vietnam.

The name Agent Orange originated with the 45 gallon barrels that Monsanto and Dow chemical companies used as containers for the chemical. The barrels had a wide orange broad band painted around the center of the barrels, thus the name. 

The chemical was so effective in CFB Gagetown that NB Power, formerly called the New Brunswick Electric Power Commission (NBEPC), used the Agent Orange to spray their power lines through the entire province. They did this until the late sixties and there are some reports that it was used into the seventies. The NBEPC had spray crews. Over 80% of them are now dead. Most from various cancers, kidney, liver, and pancreatic disorders. The sprayers formed an association called S.O.D.A., Sprayers of Dioxin Association. There was a one time out of court settlement for the surviving ex-sprayers and the estates of the deceased sprayers. It was reportedly one million dollars, a shockingly small and entirely disproportionate settlement for so many lives. 

There is also a very important story connected to this spraying which to my knowledge has never been addressed by the media.

During the mid to late sixties, the Liberal Government started L.I.P. (Local Initiative Programs) grants across Canada for student summer jobs. 

At Base Gagetown, there were several hundred teenagers employed by the LIP grants. Some of us who lived in Oromocto were not billeted in the military barracks. But teens who lived in communities outside Oromocto lived and ate in the barracks to enable them to take part in the LIP summer employment grants for CFB Gagetown. 

There were many different jobs for  students at CFB Gagetown as a result of the LIP grants. 

One of the main projects was to clear defoliated brush and burn it. This brush located in the Training Area had been defoliated by Agent Orange. The dead foliage and brush was covered in the deadly Dioxin.  We worked at this for six weeks. I was exposed and now many years later my health is seriously compromised. I developed Type II diabetes six years ago. (The US Veterans Dept established medically that Dioxin exposure causes diabetes and the VA started giving compensation to all Vietnam Veterans who developed or will develop Diabetes. 

As a result of my exposure, I not only have developed diabetes, but I also have chronic pancreatitis and liver disease which my doctors attribute to my exposure to the Agent Orange when I worked with the contaminated brush that we gathered and burned all those years ago. 

And since I have not had an alcohol drink for 28 years, it only makes logical sense that the chemical has caused all my health problems.  

There must be hundreds of people like myself who were not military or were employed by the NBEPC  but have the health problems that these groups have as result of direct contact with this deadly chemical.

I can give more information, but others can as well. This is a story that should be made public in more than the announcement of compensation. This is a story of people being poisoned and their lives shortened by painful diseases because of being unwittingly exposed to the killer Agent Orange. 

Yours truly,

Kenneth Dobbie


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## Cloud Cover

Hey all .... imagine if you were surfing the net and discovered your name being used on a public forum website without your permission. 

Please be extremely cautious about divulging the names of any private citizen on this web site [or any others] without their express permission, especially if they are ill or related to a person who is ill. Think about what an insurance company might do with the name of any person exposed to agent orange. Even their descendants might be affected. 

This is a good topic, [if somewhat sad] and I wish all of you the best of luck with this issue.


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## George Wallace

On the Agent Orange Issue, I just received this email with some quotes from Hansard on questions in the House of Commons with respect to Agent Orange being sprayed in CFB Gagetown in 1966:



> VAC Claims Agent Orange
> There has been reports that Agent Orange was experimented with by the CF
> about 45 years ago, My understanding is that this chemical was used for
> defoliation at Gagetown   I received a request from one of our list for
> information about this yesterday
> The MND has indicated that is in fact so and that VAC have been active
> in dealing with claims. The following is an extract from Hansard of 19
> May 05 pertaining to the issue. If you have any query or claim they
> should be directed to the appropriate VAC Office listed below
> Alderney Gate\
> 40 Alderney Drive.
> Dartmouth, NS B2Y 2N5 .
> 
> Place Bonaventure
> Portail Sud-Ouest
> 800, de la Gauchetière Street West
> 6th Floor, Suite 6505
> Montréal, QC H5A 1L8
> 
> 145 Government Rd. W.
> Kirkland Lake, ON P2N 2E8
> 
> 610-234 Donald St.
> P.O.Box 6050
> Winnipeg, MB R3C 4G5
> 
> 900-605 Robson St., P.O.Box 5600
> Vancouver, BC V6B 5G4
> 
> HANSARD 19 May 05
> National Defence+
> <http://www.parl.gc.ca/38/1/parlbus/chambus/house/debates/102_2005-05-19/HAN
> 102-E.htm#Int-1295491>-
> <http://www.parl.gc.ca/38/1/parlbus/chambus/house/debates/102_2005-05-19/HAN
> 102-E.htm#Int-1295486>
> 
> 
> Mr. Gordon O'Connor (Carleton-Mississippi Mills, CPC): Mr. Speaker, let me
> start by saying that the members of the armed forces know that the
> Conservatives will stand behind them and they will not slash and burn like
> the Liberals did-
> Some hon. members: Oh, oh!
> 
> +
> <http://www.parl.gc.ca/38/1/parlbus/chambus/house/debates/102_2005-05-19/HAN
> 102-E.htm#Int-1295492>-
> <http://www.parl.gc.ca/38/1/parlbus/chambus/house/debates/102_2005-05-19/HAN
> 102-E.htm#Int-1295489>
> 
> 
> The Speaker: We will have a little order, please. The hon. member for
> Carleton-Mississippi Mills has the floor.
> 
> +
> <http://www.parl.gc.ca/38/1/parlbus/chambus/house/debates/102_2005-05-19/HAN
> 102-E.htm#Int-1295529>-
> <http://www.parl.gc.ca/38/1/parlbus/chambus/house/debates/102_2005-05-19/HAN
> 102-E.htm#Int-1295491>
> 
> 
> Mr. Gordon O'Connor: Mr. Speaker, in 1966 the Liberal government authorized
> the spraying of agent orange on forests in CFB Gagetown. At or about that
> time, thousands of troops were serving in Gagetown, including me.
> Recently it has been confirmed that agent orange can cause cancer and other
> medical problems. Will the minister detail what action the government is
> taking to address this serious and tragic health problem?
> 
> +
> <http://www.parl.gc.ca/38/1/parlbus/chambus/house/debates/102_2005-05-19/HAN
> 102-E.htm#Int-1295532>-
> <http://www.parl.gc.ca/38/1/parlbus/chambus/house/debates/102_2005-05-19/HAN
> 102-E.htm#Int-1295492>
> 
> 
> Hon. Bill Graham (Minister of National Defence, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am
> glad that the hon. member has said that his party will be standing behind
> our armed forces. I lay out the challenge to him again to support the budget
> tonight and support the armed forces of Canada and where we are going in the
> future of our country. That is the way he can do it rather than with this
> empty rhetoric.
> I can tell members that when it comes to agent orange, which happened in
> 1966 as he said, it was a defoliation program that took place in Gagetown.
> We are working to trace every member of the armed forces who was there.
> The Minister of Veterans Affairs has made it clear. We have made awards to
> veterans who have made claims. Claims can be made. We urge people to come
> forward. We will support anyone who was affected by that program.
> 
> ¸
> <http://www.parl.gc.ca/38/1/parlbus/chambus/house/debates/102_2005-05-19/HAN
> 102-E.htm#TOC-TS-1450>
> +
> <http://www.parl.gc.ca/38/1/parlbus/chambus/house/debates/102_2005-05-19/HAN
> 102-E.htm#T1455>-
> <http://www.parl.gc.ca/38/1/parlbus/chambus/house/debates/102_2005-05-19/HAN
> 102-E.htm#T1445>(1450)
> 
> +
> <http://www.parl.gc.ca/38/1/parlbus/chambus/house/debates/102_2005-05-19/HAN
> 102-E.htm#Int-1295536>-
> <http://www.parl.gc.ca/38/1/parlbus/chambus/house/debates/102_2005-05-19/HAN
> 102-E.htm#Int-1295529>
> 
> 
> Mr. Gordon O'Connor (Carleton-Mississippi Mills, CPC): Mr. Speaker, the
> members of the military will know who is telling the truth. The government
> has known about this serious problem for some time, yet chose to hide it.
> There are at least 20 open files seeking resolution.
> Now the media, through access to information, has informed the public of the
> use of agent orange and the consequences to soldiers' health, yet the
> government is only starting to respond. Why does the government have to be
> spurred by public opinion before taking responsibility for the health
> consequences of putting the military in harm's way?
> 
> +
> <http://www.parl.gc.ca/38/1/parlbus/chambus/house/debates/102_2005-05-19/HAN
> 102-E.htm#Int-1295538>-
> <http://www.parl.gc.ca/38/1/parlbus/chambus/house/debates/102_2005-05-19/HAN
> 102-E.htm#Int-1295532>
> 
> 
> Hon. Bill Graham (Minister of National Defence, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
> totally disagree. That is a complete misrepresentation of what took place.
> This was a matter that occurred 45 years ago on a base where nobody
> understood at that time what the consequences were.
> We have been learning now how members might have been affected by it in
> parts of the base, but we did not know exactly which parts were affected and
> who had gone through. These are circumstances that are very complicated.
> We take this very seriously. I can promise the hon. member, who says he was
> at Gagetown, that we are working with our forces and we will make sure that
> anybody who is affected by this will be compensated. My colleague, the
> Minister of Veterans Affairs, has already done it.


----------



## armybrat1962

My family was stationed in Gagetown while agent orange was being used.  My father has currently has had heart problems for over 30 years, and diabetes. My mother died of lung cancer at a very young age. My questions is does anyone else have a family member (civilian or not) who have died or currently has cancer where being  stationed there may be a contributing factor?

Thanks 

The Brat...


----------



## dalriada

Hello Everyone

Today, May 31, I contacted Veterans Affairs and told them of my father's exposure to Agent Orange . Dad was in the 2nd Btln Black Watch and was posted at CFB Gagetown from 1959 to 1962 and then again from 1965 until the Black Watch was disbanded. Dad had a lot of experience with being on exercises in the training area. So, he was one of the exposed. 

To their credit, the Veterans Affairs people are taking this very seriously and are mailing out forms to be filled out. The main criteria is to prove that the Black Watch was in CFB Gagetown at the time of the defoliation. Well, that is not hard to prove. The other aspect is the doctor's forms saying that he died of a rare cancer. They are willing to provide a compensation pension to my mother even though he died six years ago. It will not be retroactive. 

The only catch is that it was explained to me that the maximum that the DVA pays for all disabilities is $1,540 a month. So, if anyone has previous disabilities that are equal to the that sum or more, then there would be no additional payment for compensation for being poisoned by our own government. When I put to the pension officer today in that way, she reacted by saying that my analysis was in fact correct, but there were limits imposed by legislation on the amounts. I said to her again that if a veteran who had disabilities which paid the exisiting maximum then there was in fact no compensation for being poisoned and killed by our own government's secret spraying. 

She said that I should write to the minister and put it to her like that and request a review of the cap on the disability amounts because I was correct, it you receive the maximum, there won't be additional compensation for being poisoned by Agent Orange. 

However, I did not stop there. 

I telephoned the Department of National Defense and went through much the same thing there. 

Then I got really steamed and I called the CBC....well, I have to say that the CBC did not much care to hear about this initiallly. But I am not one who EVER gives up and I was rudely treated by the reporter at the Assignment desk and he told me that he did not have the time to listen to me but to send him and email. Well, that was one reporter who has missed out on a BIG story. 

I continued and looked up investigative journalists in Canada on the Internet and concentrated on the CBC personalities, again I drew a blank. I called another part of the CBC and the staffer on the public affairs line HAD NOT EVEN HEARD OF THE DECISION TO COMPENSATE VETERANS. I couldn't believe this. I asked how long he had been working for the CBC and told him that he better start watching his own broadcasts. He was not impressed, but neither was I and I told him so. 

Next I called my MP's office and related my story to the secretary who told me to put it all in writing and it would be looked at by my MP when he had the time. 

Each person who turned me down just exacerbated my DETERMINATION to get to someone who would listen. 

Finally, a resonsponive and very disbelieving reporter told me to call the CBC Parliamentary Bureau Chief for the CBC and gave me his private number on the hill. I was assured that I would get a voice mail and I might hear back in a week or two...and in my experience with dealing with any person in government agency that meant never.

However, much to my surprise I actually contacted the Bureau Chief, David Taylor and not only did he listen to me, he delayed a meeting he had to ask details and said to me that this story needs to be told and he commended me for coming forward with it. He is sending an investigative team to interview me and then they will take it from there with questions directed to the various officials in the various departments. 

You see, not only my Dad was exposed to Agent Orange in Gagetown. But so was I, I worked there as a summer student in late July and August 1966, clearing the defoliated brush. We worked with bare hands, inhaling the fumes that were still prevalent on the dead brush. We had to burn it which was even worse, because we also inhaled the smoke. And by direct contact we absorbed through our skin. And when it came time for a break or lunch, we just sat down where we were working and ate our food with our bare hands that were covered in Dioxin. 

There were approximately, 300 of us students hired to do this. 

That is why this story is so unique as the Bureau Chief said to me. Because I am seriously ill with neurological deficiencies in my brain (my frontal lobes are 30% atrophied and I take anti-seizure medication for that) In 1977, my liver literally blew up to twice it's size and I was diagnosed by two prominent liver specialists (hepatologists) and had three liver biopsies done. They concluded in 1977 that I was suffering from "Toxic Hepatitis" caused by an extremely toxic chemical. I was sick for four years, felt like I had a mild case of the flu. Then in 1981, I started having all sorts of medical problems, stomach ailments, acne, seizures, and these went until  1990 when I started having blackouts and I was put on CPP and have been on CPP since then. My blackouts advanced to memory problems, brain dysfunctions, and a host of problems that would make my medicare bill equal to a small city's. In 1998, I had my first attack of pancreatitis and then another and another and so. I also developed Type II Diabetes, then micronodular cirrohsis of the liver even though I have never drank alcohol. I have been in the hospital 16 times, six times last year and so far this year once in April. 

My doctors tell me that my exposure to Agent Orange is responsible for all this. They also tell me that my liver profile tells them that it is not a question of "if" I develop liver cancer it is a question of "when". Currenly I go for an AFP test every three months (Alpha Feta Protein) it is a test to determine if the proteins in my blood are abnormal and if they are, that means the cancer has started. 

I told all this to the Parliamentary Bureau Chief and he was astonished because not only myself is sick, there must be dozen or hundreds of us former teenagers in 1966 who are sick, dying or have already died. So from a perspective of being a good news story....Father and Son exposed to Agent Orange and dying from it... I don't mind because the story needs to get out to educcate our young to what our government did not only to the serving members of any regiment that spent time in the training area of CFB Gagetown but also to the teenagers who are my age now...and who may not know why they are dying of various forms of cancer, liver disorders, neurological anomolies, and a host of other diseases that are listed on the American Veterans Websites. But it is also the undiscovered diseases of what this most deadly Dioxin will cause in future years because it also alters your DNA and then you pass it along to your children. 

If anyone out there was a worker with me in 1966 clearing the brush in the training area. Please post yourself and get ahold of the press and let them know. 

And finally, I would advise ANY person who spent any amount of time in the bush in CFB Gagetown to get yourself checked out for cancer. Get an AFP blood test done regularly and demand compensation form the government. 

I have a feeling that this is just the beginning of my odyssey. 

Nuf said....take care all...and you can reach me at kdobbie2@cogeco.ca


----------



## jwalker

In 1967 to 1969 I was in the field with my regiment, the 2nd Battalion of The Royal Highland Regiment of Canada, The Black Watch. 

I and thousands of others were exposed to Agent Orange which was sprayed in over 100 areas of Gagetown.

The Federal Government concealed the facts from us until the spring of this year.

I saw the Royal Canadian Mounted Police this morning and laid out the information as I knew it. I asked that the following charges be laid against the Minister of National Defence and the Chief of the Defence Staff:

Criminal Negligence,
Criminal Negligence Causing Death and
Murder

The Policeman, Cpl. Stan Williams of the Hamilton, Ontario office said that he would have to check on Jurisdictional matters and would get back to me. 

He was also somewhat concerned about the possibility of charging such powerful people.

The story that was in the newspaper appears below.

If you would like to help me in this battle you can send funds to:

John S. Walker
P.O. Box 57247, Jackson Stn.
Hamilton, Ontario
L8P 4X1
jwalker@hwcn.org

_____________________________________________________________________________


Is Agent Orange killing Canadian veterans?

John Walker, shown in a 1965 photo, blames his diabetes on exposure to 
Agent Orange while he was stationed in Gagetown with the Black Watch regiment.

By Bill Dunphy
The Hamilton Spectator(Jun 7, 2005)

John Walker leafs through his yellowing photo album, flip- ping page after 
page, pointing to the black-and-white photos of the young soldiers, beaming 
with good health and vigour.

"These guys -- they were all exposed to it. They are all infected, but do 
they know that?"

Infection may be the wrong word. But exposed isn't.

Walker is talking about being exposed to Agent Orange, the notorious toxic 
defoliant sprayed on Vietnamese jungles in mind-numbing quantities by the 
Americans during their war. Agent Orange created a horrific legacy of 
disease, cancers, and miscarriages, which scars that country's people to 
this day.

So toxic was Agent Orange that tens of thousands of Americans have fallen 
gravely ill or died as a result of exposure to the chemical during the war.

What few Canadians realize is that Agent Orange was used and tested here in 
Canada at the Armed Forces Gagetown base in New Brunswick and that 
hundreds, if not thousands, of Canadian soldiers and support staff were 
exposed to it.

Many may be sick, dying or dead as a result.

Walker fears he too has fallen ill -- with adult onset diabetes -- because 
of his years at Gagetown, where he served as a private in the 2nd Battalion 
of the Black Watch Regiment.

"I remember one time in 1967 we were training and had pulled into a copse 
of trees for the night, a section of forest maybe one mile thick by two or 
three miles long.

"There were no leaves on the trees, no grass on the ground. It was all just 
dead.

"You pull in, you're digging slit trenches -- six feet deep, two feet wide 
-- you're covered in this (crap) and you're sleeping in it. And then you 
bring it all home and your wife washes your clothes ..."

His voice trails off. He's lost touch with his ex-wife and their two 
daughters, but he wonders if they too may have been affected.

Walker comes from a Dundas military family and back in 1965, still in his 
teens, he signed on with the Black Watch. Over the next four years he would 
spend about 21 months or so stationed at Gagetown, where in 1966 Canadian 
authorities invited Americans to test Agent Orange on swaths of the base's 
hardwood forest and scrub brush.

Although the tests were no secret at the time, they weren't acknowledged by 
the armed forces until the early '80s and then it was only to reassure the 
public that there had been no ecological harm done.

Until very recently, they insisted there were no health problems associated 
with the spraying and rejected all requests for compensation from sick -- 
and in some cases dying -- veterans.

It's important to note that establishing direct causal links between 
environmental toxins and cancers or diseases that turn up decades later in 
specific individuals is very tricky science. But in the U.S. authorities 
became so convinced about the overall association between Agent Orange 
exposure and a list of 11 or so cancers and diseases, that they have for 
years extended disability pensions to any soldier who had those diseases 
and might have been exposed to the chemical.

Canada is years behind that standard.

But after decades of denial, late last year they quietly approved two 
disability pensions related to Agent Orange exposure, one from exposure in 
Vietnam (during peacekeeping duties) and one at Gagetown.

The story only leaked out last month.

And now, like a slowly burning fuse connecting a long string of 
firecrackers, it's blowing up in community after community across the 
country as word gets out.

Walker was stunned when he saw the press coverage and realized it may 
explain his health problems, his now barely controlled diabetes and the 
associated neuropathy in his legs.

Discovering that it could have been caused by a callous exposure during his 
service to his country hit him hard.

"It's like the stages of grief. The first week I couldn't even talk about 
it, this week I'm angry -- God knows what I'll be like next week."

He's applied for a disability pension and been told he'll get an answer 
within four to six months.

He says he hasn't been able to work since December and is down to his last 
$700 of his savings. He wonders how many cases like him are out there.

"How many thousands of soldiers were stationed there during those years?" 
Walker asks. And how many have fallen prey to diseases linked to, or 
associated with, exposure to Agent Orange?

The short answer is, no one knows.

Janice Sommerby, of Veterans Affairs, said yesterday that in the previous 
five years since her department began tracking disability pension requests 
linked to Agent Orange exposure, 25 people have applied. (Twenty-three have 
been turned down.) In the four weeks since the story broke, they've had 200 
calls inquiring about disability pensions linked to Agent Orange.

Are Walker's illnesses caused by Agent Orange? Does he deserve a disability 
pension?

I don't have a clue.

But I know he and many, many other of our vets deserve much better 
treatment than they're getting so far.

bdunphy@thespec.com 905-526-3262

-------------------------------------------------------


----------



## rocky1fac

I am getting the uneasy feeling (as a residend of Gagetown) that this whole issue is getting blown way out of proportion. Gagetown was only a test site, given that some soldiers no doubt ended up patroling driving or walking through these areas a possible link to illness could result. But come on a CO of a BN in the 60s call me crazy but what CO do you remeber ever being out in the bush with the troops crawling through the brush. The tests would be washed away after the first rain and dont forget the high rate of cancer in CF members anyway (not from orange) and the added issue of smkers and esatern Candians having high rates, roll it all up and most military will get it. My Uncle died of what is belived to be exposure to Agent Orange when he was in VN. He was physically sprayed with the stuff on more than one occasion and patrolled through many areas of the defoliant. He died several years after VN of an unusal brain tumor, all the info I got and was aware of as we tried to claim compensation for his widow showed me that Canadas exposure is vertually nil. Not that some odd soldiers may have gotten enough of a does to casue effects but please, COs soccer games 50 KMs from the spray.
If by some unusal turn of events a soldier was sprayed and heavily exposed then the best route to get info is the NB power investigation and compensation into its employess who sprayed Agent Orange routinely along power transmission lines through out NB throughout the 60s. 
Furthermore dont take for gospel what DVA accepts as a claim makes the claim valid. They now will side with a person if it is in the interest of the service (optics) and proof is not difinitive they will give the benifit of the doubt, that does not mean its a valid claim just that they will pay.
As a side note the locals in gagetown are all a buzz about how much they can claim.
For what its worth.


----------



## George Wallace

rocky1fac said:
			
		

> Furthermore dont take for gospel what DVA accepts as a claim makes the claim valid. They now will side with a person if it is in the interest of the service (optics) and proof is not difinitive they will give the benifit of the doubt, that does not mean its a valid claim just that they will pay.



I don't know what world you live in, but many of us here have put legitimate claims in to DVA and been turned down.   Armour pers are well documented in several categories of injuries that are all job related and many of us have had our claims rejected.   Twenty odd years of bouncing around on tracked vehicles and having the end result of compressed disks means nothing to DVA Claims Adjusters.   Twenty odd years of firing Tank and Heavy Machine Guns and listening to radios on a headset has little long term effect on Crewmen's hearing according to those clerical gurus in Charlottetown, even though their own studies have verified the different Trades and injuries they're bound to suffer.   (By the way, according to their studies, Cooks top the list for hearing loss related their work.)   If you are saying that DVA will settle a erroneous claim to keep someone quiet or from leaking to the Press, then why do they litterally screw over legitimate claimants?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

He's saying this cause he's a poser, George.
End game, sunshine.


----------



## rocky1fac

Poser? No just the facts sunshine just the facts! 
As a current suffer of depleted uranium poisoning and being in a position a a point in my life to know about the issue of agent O, I would hardly call myself a poser. My post was to add a little help the NB power part and to detail a potential abuse of the system by all the potential Agent O posers.....
And such a comment by directing staff Im surprised. As a matter of interest last night at the bar I ran into an old chum who talked about this exact issue and was going to run out and get some papers to apply for a claim with no syntoms and no exposure just was thier. Proof in the making. 
Sorry if the truth hurts.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

I don't think you won over too many people rocky with your post on how you felt those an Tarnac Farms being awared the Wound Stripe somehow diminishes the award and were undeserving.


----------



## rocky1fac

I thought this thread was about agent O? Wound strip issue was another thread but yes I would agree on some level the comment on wound strip was probably not well recieved. Not withstanding that the wound strip is for wounds in combat not from friendly fire accidents no matter how tragic. The wound strip issue should be continued on the other thread not here.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

*Quote rocky1fac*    _"Furthermore dont take for gospel what DVA accepts as a claim makes the claim valid. They now will side with a person if it is in the interest of the service (optics) and proof is not difinitive they will give the benifit of the doubt, that does not mean its a valid claim just that they will pay."_

I for one can definitely say the above quote is not true... DVA is there to do a job and they might not like doing it, but all claims have to be verified... Why else have we been trying to find the proper info for so long? Why else would I sit here since May21 waiting for my husbands body and the info to be released?... I WILL because I want to know for sure if his claim is factual and DVA also needs that info. This claim was submitted long before any Media got involved and yes... DVA could have suspected that we might go to the public via media, but they still have a mandate that they follow. I can agree that many might tie up the process with claims that can never be verified and that is a shame for those that will have to wait longer for paperwork to clear off desks. Since no sh*t hit the media fan until lately, then I have to wonder why it is reported that 17 of the early 20 claims about AO were not given the benefit of the doubt?  

Please take care when making firm statements, many of us already KNOW what DVA requires and many of us could be very hurt by such statements made with thought... 

up-date;   pathology is still doing their testing and some tests take longer than others... I do believe that this is the first AO autopsy that has been done in Canada so I am sure they are doing their best to get all the info in the proper way and I thought this might be a good time to post. Thank you all for your interest...


----------



## rocky1fac

What can I say? Sorry for your lose but I stand by what I said. 

It has always been a policy of DVA to side with a claim when not proven or disproven but given the benfit of the doubt to the claimant. 

I never said that all AO claims were not valid I just stated my concern for the soon to come onslought of claims from people who were present at CFB Gagetown when the test spray occured. I would expect that some claims would be valid but I think its a stretch to tie a soccer game to the issue otherwise the entire population of Gagetown and area 15,000 (est) would have signs of it. Thats the issue.

With an Uncle dead of AO and myself a holder of 5 different DVA claims I have a small concept of the issue at DVA and AO. And by the way no help from DVA for depleted urainium poisoning but I await the benifit of the doubt.

In closing the most important point I made for you was the NB Power study and compensation over AO but that appears to have been forgotten. As a recap NB Power and CN rail used the AO to clear track and power lines throughout the country and NB. NB power did up a study and compensated at last knowledge those that were victims. I hope this helps


----------



## Acorn

Man, rocky, is there anything you HAVEN'T done or been involved in?

Acorn


----------



## rocky1fac

Hold on to your helmets Agent Purple is now the buzz word at CFB Gagetown.
Agent Purple was sprayed at CFB Gagetown in the 50s. Agent Purple is claimed to be 3 times more toxic then Agent Orange.
Im informed so your informed ...new forum maybe this one should be 3 times more crowded.


----------



## Skinny

http://www.canada.com/national/story.html?id=642ed469-7346-4f1a-bc5e-21ebed477624

FREDERICTON -- A herbicide considered three times more toxic than the cancer-linked Agent Orange was sprayed on a New Brunswick army base in 1966, CBC Radio reported Monday. 

The government has only acknowledged the harm caused by spraying Agent Orange in 1966 and 1967 at Canadian Forces Base Gagetown. The Canadian military is paying compensation in two cases connected to that spraying. 

But according to a U.S. army report, the lesser known but more deadly cousin of Agent Orange known as Agent Purple was also sprayed at the base. 

Richard van der Jagt, a leukemia specialist at theOttawa General Hospital, said a study published in the journal Nature estimates that Agent Purple contained three times the cancer-causing material found in Agent Orange. 

"Purple is even more laced with dioxin. Dioxin is something we know to be cancer-causing,'' he said. 

"These are very toxic agents to human health, something to be very concerned about in public health.'' 

U.S. forces sprayed Agent Orange to defoliate large areas of forest in Vietnam from 1961 to 1971. Use of the herbicide was stopped in 1971 after it was discovered to contain dioxin. 

The Canadian military used the spray to clear foliage to prevent fires during artillery training and to clear the view for soldiers. 

The federal government also allowed Americans to test the herbicide at the Canadian base during the Vietnam war. 

CBC News also reported that before Agent Orange was tested at Gagetown, the most dangerous ingredient of the herbicide was used as early as 1956 at the base. 

A military briefing note to the New Brunswick cabinet shows the ingredient 2,4,5-T was sprayed on thousands of hectares. 

"Agent Orange and 2,4,5-T have been banned because of their known toxic effects and they've been banned for many years,'' said van der Jagt. 

Earl Graves, who served in the Black Watch Regiment in the 1960s, said he didn't know the base was spraying Agent Purple or Agent Orange. 

The retired sergeant, who is now president of the regiment's New Brunswick chapter, said the soldiers were told to cover their heads when the planes flew by. 

"They were out in the exercise area and the planes flew over spraying and they were told to just put ponchos over their head, that it wouldn't hurt them,'' Graves said. 

"A lot of us were out in the field. We did exercise, we were on the ground - especially the infantry - laying on the ground, eating the blueberries, drinking the water, swimming in the lakes, you name it.'' 

Graves said 170 soldiers in his regiment died of cancer and many of them died young.


----------



## gagetown army brat

Last evening on the CBC news, I watched with extreme interest, a news story on Agent Orange and Agent Purple.  To most of you who are unaware of this, not just Agent Orange was sprayed over CFB Gagetown but a much deadlier toxic chemical, Agent Purple, was sprayed as well.  The US military had stopped using this agent two years prior the spraying at CFB Gagetown.

My father was stationed in "Gagetown" for most of his entire military career.  As a young child growing up  in the PMQ, I can remember certain incidences around the time the spraying took place.  One day our lawn was green, the next it was dead.  At school, the entire school population was sent to the school gym to be innoculated for what we were told was for the spraying of spruce budworm.  

After growing up and moving to another part of the country, I stayed in contact with many of my childhood friends.  In 1991, we decided to get together for a reunion of sorts to catch up on old times.  After the preliminary chit chat, we talked about our children.  Four out of five of us miscarried our first child.  Our second child born had been born with a birth defect(s).  This seemed to all of us too coincidental and so we decided to ask questions.  It is not rare that some children are born with birth defects but what is frightening is that the ratio of this happening within our group is what made us question what we were exposed to when we were young.  We contacted various military personnel to have our concerns answered but were dismissed.  We did not pursue the issue at that time.

What I would like to know is how these chemicals affected the children who were exposed because it seems obvious that we were exposed to these toxic chemicals and no one is willing to acknowledge this.  How many others who as children were exposed and now share similar experiences regarding their offspring?

Agent Orange and Agent Purple were sprayed in CFB Gagetown in the late sixties.  The true horror of this is that it is still there.  Not just the human population had been exposed, but the entire ecosystem had been exposed.

gagetown army brat


----------



## Fry

Very terrible indeed. My condolences to all affected.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

What if some of those affected where gay?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

CFL, I hate you..........


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

lol
Don't hate the player, hate the game.
lol


----------



## Fry

If some of those affected were gay, then it would still be terrible.


----------



## dalriada

Hi Everyone...

I just wanted to comment on a post I saw about Agent Orange being washed away. 

The Dioxin that is a by product of the two chemicals that make up Agent Orange or Agent Purple has a half life of nine years. That means that it loses halif it's toxicity every nine years. It does not get washed away. It remains in the soil and the groundwater and will be at CFB Gagetown for some years yet to come. 

And as we all know now, CFB Gagetown was not just a test. The place was deliberately defoliated by DND and the US military from 1956 to 1967. 

The exposure to Dioxin affects people differently. Some get various forms of cancer, others heart ailments, others respiratory diseases and others have nerve damage and yet others will get blood disorders. The bottom line is that no one knows how it will affect a person, or even if it affects everyone. There is simply not enough science available yet 

Those of us who have been poisoned by Dioxin are still waiting for the next thing to go wrong with our bodies, there are diseases and disorders that are still being added to the growing list of medical problems. 

Four months after I had my exposure by working with the defoliated brush for six weeks, I developed peptic ulcers...imagine that, I was only 19. I have been sick since with a growing list of problems that are all attributable to Dioxin. 

For a good reference to what diseases and disorders are a result of Dioxin poisoning, I would recommend visiiting the VietNam Red Cross Site. Their list is about four times longer than the official list that the US Dept of Veterans Affairs officially recognizes. 

And if anyone doubts what I say, you might have seen me on the National in the past couple of days. 

IF anyone out there worked with AO or AP in any capacity or were exposed in any way, get yourself to your doctor and get an AFP blood test (Alpha Feta Protein) done every three months and don't stop having the test done. It may save your life. It is a cancer test. 

Kenneth Dobbie


----------



## Fry

Just goes to show, I guess, that very very extensive testing should be done on chemical concoctions such as these, before they're tested or used in places such as Gagetown.


----------



## oldvet

In case anyone is interested: did you know that in the mid 1970's thousands of gallons of Agent Orange, various other chemical warfare agents and their manufacturing wastes were taken from Dow chemical and other companies and disposed of through a facility in Mississauga. After a storage time in Mississauga they were transported by tanker truck to Sarnia where they were injected into the ground. During the storage time, a significant quantity of the stuff evaporated from the storage tanks; God knows what has happened to the stuff that was injected into the ground. Wonder what the effect of long term low level exposure did to the residents of Mississauga??? Wonder what the stuff coming out of the ground is doing to the residents of Sarnia????


----------



## SNEN833

rocky1fac said:
			
		

> I am getting the uneasy feeling (as a residend of Gagetown) that this whole issue is getting blown way out of proportion. Gagetown was only a test site, given that some soldiers no doubt ended up patroling driving or walking through these areas a possible link to illness could result. But come on a CO of a BN in the 60s call me crazy but what CO do you remeber ever being out in the bush with the troops crawling through the brush. The tests would be washed away after the first rain and dont forget the high rate of cancer in CF members anyway (not from orange) and the added issue of smkers and esatern Candians having high rates, roll it all up and most military will get it. My Uncle died of what is belived to be exposure to Agent Orange when he was in VN. He was physically sprayed with the stuff on more than one occasion and patrolled through many areas of the defoliant. He died several years after VN of an unusal brain tumor, all the info I got and was aware of as we tried to claim compensation for his widow showed me that Canadas exposure is vertually nil. Not that some odd soldiers may have gotten enough of a does to casue effects but please, COs soccer games 50 KMs from the spray.
> If by some unusal turn of events a soldier was sprayed and heavily exposed then the best route to get info is the NB power investigation and compensation into its employess who sprayed Agent Orange routinely along power transmission lines through out NB throughout the 60s.
> Furthermore dont take for gospel what DVA accepts as a claim makes the claim valid. They now will side with a person if it is in the interest of the service (optics) and proof is not difinitive they will give the benifit of the doubt, that does not mean its a valid claim just that they will pay.
> As a side note the locals in gagetown are all a buzz about how much they can claim.
> For what its worth.


----------



## SNEN833

I must respectfully disagree with your assessment that the Agent Orange crisis is being overblown.   There are simply too many individuals with the same chronic illness.   My father-in-law has been the epitome of health his entire life until last year when he was diagnosed with Chronic Lymphatic Leukemia.   This is the same illness that killed BG Sellers, who hapend to be the commanding officer of the Black Watch Regiment in the 60's.   My Father In Law was also in the BW Regiment during that time.   The American Government has recognized that Agent Orange and its more lethal Agent Purple cause people to develop CLL.

The Canadian goverment needs to do the same and get the benefits to the veterans who need them now!


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## oldvet

For those who contacted me regarding the disposal of chemical warfare agents in the Sarnia area: I suggest that you check out "Tricil Waste Management" a joint venture between CIL and Trimac trucking, their disposal site is/was near Moore Township (Corunna) in Lambton County. Also, it might be worthwhile investigating the practice of blending these, and other toxic wastes, with used crankcase oils and spraying the mix onto rural roads for "dust suppresion"; and also the dumping of toxic wastes in the old Ontario Hydro fly ash dump north of Toronto.


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## Sandy Skipton

I hope my comments are taken as discussion and they are not given in any other way... 
The company _oldvet_ points out is/was a waste management company.. in the early 70s the dioxins were simply that 'waste'  at least the company lists what they were handling. The dumps referred to were 'Toxic dumps' (as far as I can find out).. therefore the workers and people would have had a prewarning that their health could be in compromised. That is not so say it was right... BUT, please understand, the spraying of toxic and damaging chemicals at Gagetown was not information that was given willingly by our government.  Had the government and military been up front, then the servicemen and the people living in the area would have known their health could be compromised and my husband, along with many others, could have had his problems recognized at a point when productive treatment may have extended his life. We as silly humans think we are indestructable and we look to our doctors to know what to look for. When our government made a mistake by spraying why did they keep the info a secret? Why did they not speak up and let us, or at least our medical system,  know so that we could protect ourselves to the best of our ability? It is the secretiveness and the denials that have hurt so many. We have expected, and rightly so, that our government should be honest. Our government officials are elected by us to represent us and protect us. This is what they have fallen down on. They had a mess to clean up and the mess could have been better handled by treating us with respect a long time ago. Everone makes mistakes but for some reason our government thinks hiding mistakes is the right way, well sorry but admitting a mistake AS SOON AS IT IS DISCOVERED will go a long way to preventing or at least starting on a path to correct the resulting problems.


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## Fishbone Jones

MIKsam said:
			
		

> Our government officials are elected by us to represent us and protect us. This is what they have fallen down on. They had a mess to clean up and the mess could have been better handled by treating us with respect a long time ago. Everone makes mistakes but for some reason our government thinks hiding mistakes is the right way, well sorry but admitting a mistake AS SOON AS IT IS DISCOVERED will go a long way to preventing or at least starting on a path to correct the resulting problems.



Hmmm. Notice a pattern here? Why would they admit to this and risk their votes and popularity. This system of denial is the norm in Ottawa, no matter the scandal. It's seems to be a politician's inherent right to lie to their constituents, without penalty. This one is just another in a very long list. Ex lawyers and used car salesmen. We get what we pay for.


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## jwalker

Ottawa's shoddy efforts on Agent Orange dishonour vets

By Bill Dunphy
The Hamilton Spectator
(Jun 18, 2005)

Canada's Department of Veterans Affairs has belatedly taken steps to deal with the growing pile of disability claims from Canadian veterans who fear that military exposure to Agent Orange has left them ill, disabled and even dying.

Sandra Williamson, the department's acting director of programs and policy, revealed yesterday that the department is forming a special review committee to re-examine all failed Agent Orange disability claims and to process what may prove to be a flood of new ones.

"We're encouraging any (veteran) who believes he or she may be suffering illnesses related to Agent Orange exposure to contact us," Williamson said.

Disability claims will be judged on the very latest available scientific evidence, she said.

"We're taking a fair, flexible and reasonable approach," Williamson told me.

"We're encouraging veterans to come forward. They'll be dealt with in as timely a manner as we can."

Two Hamilton veterans have already come forward to say they suspect their Type 2 diabetes (so-called late onset diabetes) may be a direct result of the time they spent at CFB Gagetown in areas used as a testing ground for the toxic defoliant. Both men worry even more serious diseases may follow.

The news broke one month ago after the government finally acknowledged -- in two cases -- that veterans had fallen ill after being exposed to Agent Orange during the little known testing of the powerful herbicide at the Gagetown, New Brunswick, army base in 1966.

One of those two soldiers died before he could receive his disability benefits. A third soldier granted disability benefits was exposed during peace-keeping duty in Vietnam.

The wide use of Agent Orange by the American forces in the Vietnam war has been linked to a series of sometimes fatal cancers and other illnesses, but Canadian authorities had previously denied there were any health risks associated with the Agent Orange testing by American crews at Gagetown.

They have now admitted what some veterans have been saying for years and the only questions that remain are how many others have fallen ill and how many will ever receive disability pensions.

Since they began tracking Agent Orange claims in 2000, Veteran Affairs has accepted two and rejected 23. One of the latter was overturned on appeal last week.

As many as 350 veterans have inquired about making a claim in the past month.

The two Hamilton veterans who say their diabetes may be a direct result of Agent Orange exposure yesterday expressed skepticism about the new special review committee.

"I'm a little skeptical because they've said they're going to do a bunch of stuff, but they never do it," Leslie Kitson said.

Kitson has some experience in the matter.

It took him seven appeals before he was finally granted a 25 per cent disability after a sporting accident in the service left him with permanent double vision in one eye.

His application for benefits for his diabetes was turned down just last year.

"I'll apply again and see what they say," he said.

John Walker's application is still with his doctor, but he too was no more than cautious about yesterday's announcement.

"I'm glad to hear they say they're going to take an interest. Whether they do or not remains to be seen."

Walker is still furious that officials are refusing to notify every soldier who served at Gagetown and may have been exposed.

So furious that last week he tried to get the Hamilton RCMP office to open an investigation of government officials on charges of criminal negligence causing death.

Police considered the matter for several days, then refused to open an investigation, he told me.

Walker's anger is well placed, as is both men's skepticism.

For while the Veteran Affairs announcement sounds like good news, once you lift the curtains, it begins to look more and more like damage control.

Despite the best efforts of a public relations official I could hear whispering answers for her during the hour-long interview, Williamson was forced to admit Veteran Affairs is making no efforts to locate and notify those servicemen and women who may have been exposed to the deadly poison.

She also acknowledged they are making no efforts to use their electronic database of failed disability claims to try to identify potential victims and get them to reapply.

Instead, they're putting a note on their website and counting on the media attention to do their work for them.

And worse, Veterans Affairs has no set standard for what constitutes "exposure" and will decide on a case by case basis.

That's an approach long ago rejected by their counterparts in the United States because of how well near impossible it will be for veterans to prove they were directly exposed 40 years ago. In the U.S., Agent Orange disability claims have long been judged on a "presumptive" basis.

If you have the specific diseases and you served on the ground in Vietnam, it is presumed likely that your disease is caused by Agent Orange.

It's a decision which acknowledges both the scientific uncertainty surrounding exposure issues, as well as the simple gratitude the country owes the men and women who pledge their lives in our service.

Canadian veterans deserve no less.

bdunphy@thespec.com

905-526-3262


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## oldvet

My point in referring to the disposal of CW agents was to make clear that you didn't have to be crawling throught the bush in Gagetown to be exposed to agent orange or other CW agents. The air you were breathing while jogging in suburban Mississauga; the dust you breathed while on a route march; the water you drank from a well or from a creek may all have been contaminated. In the 1970's nobody reallly cared where the stuff went, so long as it went away. It was not unheard of for a load to go over the hill and vanish. Similarly, it was not unusual for drums of the stuff to be buried in some convenient out of sight location, or dumped in a ravine or lake somewhere. The health problems many of us are now suffering from could well be related to this careless disposal of the stuff; and nobody really knows where it all is. Regarding the government: after a lifetime of having to deal with government officialdom, I find it wise that if one of them tells me it is daylight outside, I will sent three people to check. To paraphrase Winston Churchill (?): "We have nothing to fear but the self interested corruption of our leaders".


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## dalriada

Hi Everyone

I have been talking with the senior pension officer with the DVA for Nova Scotia in regard to a compensation claim for my mother since my father died in 1999 of a rare form of cancer which is one of the cancers caused by Agent Orange.

The reception from the pension officer at the DVA was courteous and helpful and I have already received an application kit for the process of applying for a compensation disability pension on behalf of my mother. I have to say that the application kit is very basic and not all complex or having one to 'jump through hoops'. One has to prove that a person was there at CFB Gagetown, and the other criteria is that a doctor certify that the person died of one of a range of diseases that are generally recognized to be caused by Agent Orange, however there seems to be latitude in the range of diseases and disorders in the telephone discussion that I had with the senior pension officer. And it seems that the process may be presumptive rather than having to prove actual association. 

As I understand their official position each case will be dealt with on a case by case basis, but it is my observation from the letter that I received and the documentation required and my discussion with the senior pension officer that it 'appears' that they are taking a presumptive course of action. That is only my observation though and may not be the case. 

There are some facts which I would like to bring to everyone's attention concerning the spraying of defoliants at CFB Gagetown. 

1) Defoliation occurred from 1956 to 1967 inclusive on a large scale. Thus the story of "testing by the US military" is just part of the cover up that went on for the past 49 years. 

In 1956, defoliation started on a massive scale involving thousands of acres throughout the ensuing years, using a product called Bushkill. BrushKill contained 2,4,5, D & 2,4,5,T, in effect it is Agent Orange. However, what is not currently known is the level of Dioxin in the Brushkill. Emails that I have been receiving from former sprayers of Brushkill are insisting that the toxicity was far higher than "the watered down version of Agent Orange".   

It would appear that because Base Gagetown had the defoliation policy in place since 1956 to clear the brush and forest by applying Brushkill, that the Americans were given permission to test their versions of defoliants because DND was already defoliating on a wide scale basis and had been since 1956. The American versions of the defoliant were the same chemicals, just that they were given names like Agent Orange, Agent Purple, Agent White, Pink and so. These became known as the "rainbow" herbicides in their use in Vietnam. 

2) There was a spray accident in 1964, which involved the spray, now known as Agent Orange. The spray was blown off the Base because of a temperature inversion and poisoned civilian communities over a wide area on the opposite side of the St. John River. Most of these communities were market-garden orientated. It is interesting to note that the Crown compensated the farmers for extensive crop damage in the amount of $250,000 in 1964 dollars. 

So the government has already set a precedent of compensating civilians for exposure to and poisoning by Agent Orange. 

Because I allowed my story, name and email address to be used on New Brunswick MLA Jody Carr's website, I have been receiving dozens of emails from people all across Canada with horror stories of their families dying of all kinds of cancers, organ dysfunctions of all kinds, some like mine, and some having various neurological disorders, miscarriages, birth defects etc...the common thread among all these emails is that they were all military families that were based at CFB Gagetown/Oromocto during the late fifties and throughout the sixties. So the anger out there is growing as the stories keep unfolding.

The Government is having a public meeting sometime either this week or next week at CFB Gagetown to give an information session as well as to hear from the civilian population affected. I intend on driving from Kingston here to CFB Gagetown to attend that public meeting. 

One of the concerns that immediately comes to mind is that fact that these lands along the St. John River have been producing vegetables on a massive scale for decades. If the farms were so damaged by Agent Orange in 1964 that the Crown had to compensate them, why were these farms allowed to grow produce that would have gone into the food chain via grocery stores, not only in New Brunswick but by exporting of the produce to other parts of the country. 

Dioxin has a half life of nine years, that means that the farmers in that area of the St. John River who grew and sold vegetables from 1965 to 1973 were selling produce that probably was contaminated with Dioxin. 

It makes one very concerned not only as to why they would have been allowed to sell their produce, but how has that produce affected the people who consumed the vegetables. 

and just for everyone's info. 

"This Tuesday the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs will be hearing from officials with the two departments in Ottawa concerning Agent Orange spraying at CFB Gagetown.
  
NOTICE OF MEETING
  
Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs
Tuesday, June 21, 2005
9:00 a.m. to 11:00 a.m.
Room 269, West Block
  
Orders of the Day - Televised
  
 1.  Briefing session on Agent Orange
  
Witnesses - Department of National Defence
Karen Ellis, Assistant Deputy Minister
Infrastructure and Environment
  
Witnesses - Department of Veterans Affairs
Sandra Williamson, Acting Director
Program Policy Directorate, Veterans Services Branch
  
Bryson Guptill, Director
Program & Service Redesign Modernization Task Force, Veterans Services Branch
  
emails from affected veterans and civilians are welcome at kdobbie2@cogeco.ca 

Regards, 

Ken Dobbie


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## camochick

I don't know if this link has already been posted but this man put up a website about his father and his death from cancer that may have been caused by agent orange.

http://agentorangealert.com/pages/1/index.htm


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## dalriada

Hello Everyone

I received a file today from DND concerning the spraying of CFB Gagetown, of the 82 pages there are 43 that are "withheld", just totally blank pages, I have to assume that since the briefing contains information about medical records of personnel in conjunction with the use of the defoliants that this is considered to be private information. However, it also provokes questions as to just what medical conditions these people have and this briefing was put out in 1984. 

*Note the official spray program lasted from 1956 to 1984*

    OVERVIEW OF HERBICIDE SPRAY PROGRAMME CFB GAGETOWN 1956-1984

1956    3,687 Acres sprayed with 2, 4, D and 2, 4, 5, T

1957    3,879 Acres sprayed with 2, 4, D and 2, 4, 5, T 

1958    8,018 Acres sprayed with 2, 4, D and 2, 4, 5, T 

1959    No spraying

1960    9,079 Acres sprayed with AMMATE and 2, 4, 5, T

1961    5,189 Acres sprayed with 2, 4, 5, T

1962    No spraying

1963    9,643 Acres sprayed with 2, 4, D and 2, 4, 5, T

1964    9,225 Acres sprayed with 2, 4, D and 2, 4, 5, T

1965    4,708 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101

1966    8,431 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101 & unknown amount of Acres sprayed with Agent Purple

1967    7,375 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101 & unknown amount of Acres sprayed with Agent Purple
           2,000 Acres sprayed with 2, 4, D

1968    5,675 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101

1969    3,710 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101

1970    9,550 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101

1971    9,625 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101

1972    10,213 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101

1973     8,664 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101

1974    4,144 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101
           3,149 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101

1975    8,855 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101

1976    6,041 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101

1977    5,963 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101
           300 Acres (approx) sprayed with SPIKE 5P

1978    6,055 Acres sprayed with TORDON 101
           60 Acres (approx) sprayed with SPIKE 5P

1979    2,982 Acres sprayed with TORDON 10K
           102 Acres (approx) sprayed with SPIKE 5P

1980    4,795  Acres sprayed with TORDON 10K

1981    1,847 Hectares (4564 Acres) sprayed with TORDON 10K
           102 Hectares (252 Acres) sprayed with HERBEC 20P

1982    1,531 Hectares (3783 Acres) sprayed with TORDON 10K

1983    1,455 Hectares (3595 Acres) sprayed with TORDON 10K
            183 Hectares (452 Acres) sprayed with HERBEC 20P

1984    2,825 Hectares (6980 Acres) sprayed with DYCLEER LH+
           Unknown acres sprayed with SILVAPROP (but 550 barrels used)

Total Acreage sprayed from 1956 to 1984 -  181,038 Acres sprayed with 6,504 barrels (45 gallon) which is 292,680 gallons or 1,328,767 litres of defoliant chemicals 

I looked up TORDON 101,  have a look at the link I think it says enough about TORDON. 

http://www.dowagro.com/webapps/lit/litorder.asp?filepath=ca/pdfs/noreg/010-20085.pdf&pdf=true

It would appear that the switch from 2,4,D & 2,4,5,T to TORDON was supposed to be less poisonous, I wonder just how much research is being done on TORDON as to Human poisoning? Scary isn't it??

Some more thoughts for you. 

Ken Dobbie


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## Bruce Monkhouse

The highlights just about sum up the way business was done back then. :rage:

Tue, June 21, 2005 
They're still looking into the matter
Even after Agent Orange's toxic qualities had been acknowledged, the Canadian government was still in denial
By Greg Weston -- Sun Ottawa Bureau

In May of last year, National Defence received an official inquiry from the son of a dead veteran, one of potentially thousands of Canadian troops exposed to the lethal Agent Orange herbicide while posted at Gagetown, N.B. 
The correspondence resulted in a series of internal Defence Department memos sure to sicken vets everywhere, and should equally enrage all Canadians. 

The man (identified only as Bryan in the censored documents we reviewed), noted his father had served at Gagetown in the 1960s when the U.S. military was allowed to spray-bomb the Canadian base with Agent Orange, testing the powerful defoliant for jungle clearing during the Vietnam War. 
Worse, Bryan said, before his father died, "he spoke of himself and other soldiers cleaning up a spill of Agent Orange." (Documents indicate there was at least one such spill.) 

His dad and the others, Bryan said, were dead or dying of cancers and other ailments which the U.S. military officially linked to Agent Orange more than a decade ago. 
Bryan's question to National Defence was simple and obvious: What, if anything, was the Canadian government doing for the Agent Orange victims and their families? 
By the time Bryan wrote his letter in May of last year, the response should have been straightforward. 
Since 1993, the U.S. military has been paying compensation to Vietnam vets suffering any of the dozens of cancers and other diseases linked to Agent Orange exposure. 

By the time Bryan's note hit the DND in-basket here, there were hundreds of American websites devoted to Agent Orange, and entire U.S. government agencies and private associations helping Vietnam vets deal with the tragic aftermath of exposure to these horrible chemicals. Even here in Canada, by the time Bryan got a final reply in July, 2004, the Department of Veterans Affairs here had ruled in its own landmark case. 
The month before, Veterans Affairs upheld a claim by retired Brig.-Gen. Gordon Sellar that he had contracted leukemia as a result of his exposure to Agent Orange at Gagetown in 1966. 

As we said, given the massive amounts of information available from the U.S., given the ruling of the feds here, given all that was known, the response to Bryan should have been a no-brainer: 
Yes, Bryan, your father's contact with Agent Orange probably killed him, and his family is therefore entitled to compensation with a nation's deepest apologies. 

Instead, here is what Bryan got from his government: 
The first note was from a lieutenant-colonel who said he was "not in a position to comment on whether or not the issue of Agent Orange has been brought to the attention of Canadian Forces authorities. I will try to track down someone that can provide this information." 
Bryan wrote back, thanking the colonel for his response, adding: "I would certainly appreciate hearing if there has been any type of investigation into Agent Orange." 

The colonel replied that someone from the Canadian Forces Medical Group "will be contacting you in due course to answer your questions on Agent Orange that are of a scientific nature." 
That someone was Dr. Samy Mohanna, deputy chief of staff for the DND health protection branch. In a draft reply, copied to five other high-ranking defence officials, Mohanna said he had reviewed the information given to him. 

"In June of 1966, Agent Orange was used as a potential herbicide," he wrote. "Helicopters did the spraying on very small plots of uninhabited areas with very dense vegetation." 

The deputy head of health protection for DND concluded (remember, this is after Veterans Affairs has already acknowledged Agent Orange caused the cancer that killed Brig.-Gen. Sellar): "No civilian or military personnel were placed at risk, and no civilian community was affected. 
"No indications from medical records have suggested ill health effects." 

A call to Mohanna's office yesterday got a message recorded three months ago, saying: "I am retiring today." 
A National Defence spokesman refused to comment, saying the department would be holding a special press briefing on Agent Orange "sometime soon."


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## Sandy Skipton

no update as yet concerning the autopsy... my husband is still with the pathologist... BUT



> A call to Mohanna's office yesterday got a message recorded three months ago, saying: "I am retiring today."
> A National Defence spokesman refused to comment, saying the department would be holding a special press briefing on Agent Orange "sometime soon."


  

I think all the upper Military staff might have retired in the last couple of months... I have no other explanation for the following...  :warstory:

On January 10 2005, when all hope was lost and my husband was told he was terminal.. my son (a serving member) asked for a letter to outline things to his superiors. He was due for a transfer.  He submitted this letter requesting that his 'Career Manager' be informed. At that time he was told that the Career Manager was expected shortly (which he knew) and that he could speak with the CM at their meeting. He did so to no avail, he was transferred effective June 1 2005. At that time he submitted his release. The release was not accepted by his CO and the CO arranged a 30 day extension time enough to request and do the interviews for a compassionate posting and that is what he did. The Compassionate was submitted on May 1 2005 and as you all know his dad died on May 21. Two weeks after his dad's death he was called to his section CWO and told that his dad was gone so now his compassionate had no standing. The base social worker had included in the first interview report that his mother would need him to help out after his dad past and therefore a 2year compassionate was substantiated. 

I phoned my MP at his Ottawa office on June 6 and asked for him to look into all this (a secretary of course), On June 7  I phoned my MP at his local office. On June 14, I phoned the local office again and was told that my MP had the file and was arranging a meeting with the Minister of Defense.. I have heard nothing.
That office is not answering the phone when I call to see if any further info is available.

Now yesterday I went to see my Provincial MLA very early in the morning and he told me he would look into it by contacting my MP (to see what info he might have) and that he would speak to the Base commander on my behalf. Well, I guess he could not contact either person cause it is now 2 full days and I have heard nothing, after trying to contact him.  

Meanwhile my son is being told to sit tight verbally (get it in writing is the motto of the military). Friday July 1 is coming up fast and his compassionate request has been in Ottawa for almost 8 weeks. His release request has been on his COs desk longer than that. 

When does the hammer hit the other side of my head?  I think I have a spot available for another good swat. but I think you can see why I say that the upper staff of the military must have all retired. With the time that I have been around and involved with the military, I have never seen a serving member or their family treated in this fashion.


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## Acorn

dalriada said:
			
		

> Hello Everyone
> 
> I received a file today from DND concerning the spraying of CFB Gagetown, of the 82 pages there are 43 that are "withheld", just totally blank pages, I have to assume that since the briefing contains information about medical records of personnel in conjunction with the use of the defoliants that this is considered to be private information. However, it also provokes questions as to just what medical conditions these people have and this briefing was put out in 1984.



Ken, 

Any pages or sections that have been redacted from the document you received should have a number to indicate the section of the Access to Information Act that provided the exemption from release. From that you could see if it was a Privacy issue, or something else. You may find that some info cannot be released because it is concerning our Allies (such as the US), and we are automatically prohibited from releasing it.

Acorn


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## glock17

Is there a site where the "associated" diseases may be listed?

I was in Gagetown from 82-86, spent lots of time crawling around the bush. In 95 I was diagnosed with an extremely rare auto immune disease that started attacking my kidneys, no family history, no ideas of the cause. I think my Doc would like to read up a bit about these herbicides.

I shudder when I think of all the folks who were there before and after me.

God Bless


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## Wayne Coady

A 1970 report from national defence to parliament stated that "no research carried out by the Department of National Defence has affected the use of chemicals in Vietnam." Former defence minister Paul Hellyer says such tests were actually routine, but he attempts to downplay the issue by pointing out that Agent Orange was tested as a tactical weapon, not a chemical weapon.

The Uniroyal plant in Elmira, Ont., was one of seven suppliers producing Agent Orange for the U.S. military."

MY QUESTION:  someone should ask Paul Hellyer: Where in the name of heck do you get off testing a tactical weapon on Canadian citizens and your own military ? Minister Hellyer knowingly used a dangerous / tactical chemical weapon, this man should be helled for crimes against humanity. We need a public Inquiry looking into who knew what and who were the senior bureaucrats involved. How much money did Uniroyal pump into the political parties of the day to be able to pull this off? 

Regards

Wayne Coady, Cole Harbour Nova Scotia, (902)434-9306 wcoady@accesswave.ca        
CC: All Members of Parliament


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## pbi

IMHO it wouldn't necessarily have taken any bribing or corruption for the safety of soldiers to have been neglected: it was the way it was in the 1960s, not just in the military  but elsewhere: civ firefighters in those days rarely wore their SCBA (some didn't even have it), road dept employees were regularly exposed to PCB-laced waste oil used for oiling dirt roads, much of the health, safety and quality controls we have on products and services today didn't exist, and pollution wasn't really taken seriously, nor was smoking nor wearing seatbelts. That was just on civvy street. In the military we had lots of examples of this kind of thing in the '50s and 60s: the use of unprotected troops to clean up contaminated soil at the Chalk River reactor site, and the exposure of Canadian soldiers to nuclear detonations in the US. I doubt anybody really questioned it much at the time. Holding Paul Hellyer accountable won't do much: we are paying now for the prevalent attitude then.

Cheers.


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## 54/102 CEF

A bigger crime is the BIG GOVERNMENT era and high taxes that he was in on --- but thats my hobby horse

If the cabinet said we accept to test this stuff - then recourse through the same measures as we saw through Gomery - but it maybe slow - especially when a lot of the senior people are now DEAD 

Any crimes they may have been involved in were going to be perpetrated on the Commies who weren't going to sue for compensation because they were going to be DEAD

Hellyer derailed the Military and steered the cash into payoffs to the provinces and social spending

However there is a on going program to pay off gas warfare volunteers from the 1940s

Keep plugging!


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## Acorn

Agent Orange was/is a defoliant, not a "tactical weapon" in the sense that it was designed to cause harm to the enemy. It was designed to reduce the top cover of the jungle canopy that the NVA used to cover movements.

That doesn't change it's effects to those exposed (or the need to deal with and compensate those exposed), but it would be a gross exaggeration to claim that it is some sort of chemical weapon.

Acorn


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## McG

> N.B. residents briefed on Agent Orange tests in 1960s
> The Globe & Mail Online
> Thursday, June 23, 2005 (Updated at 1:55 PM EDT)
> Canadian Press
> 
> CFB Gagetown â â€ Federal officials say it's highly unlikely New Brunswick residents living near CFB Gagetown were exposed to the herbicide Agent Orange when it was tested by the U.S. military in the 1960s.
> 
> However, the Defence Department and the Veterans Affairs Department say they are encouraging those who believe they were affected by the powerful defoliant to come forward and apply for a disability pension.
> 
> The Defence Department also says it will reopen its files to determine who was involved in the spraying program, and it will contact the U.S. authorities who conducted the tests.
> 
> The officials were speaking at a public meeting at the sprawling military base near Oromocto, N.B.
> 
> The public meeting followed a series of media reports that have raised questions about the spraying program and how it may have affected members of the military and local residents.
> 
> Earlier this week, Defence officials said that even Canadian Forces members who trained in the test areas would have had to ingest large amounts of contaminated material to have been affected by the small-scale test sprayings in 1966 and 1967.
> 
> They say it's highly unlikely civilians outside the sprawling army base would have been exposed.
> 
> The use of the defoliants, which included Agent Orange, Agent Purple and Agent White, has been public knowledge in New Brunswick since 1981.
> 
> A handful of military personnel have received compensation for ailments linked to the spraying program, but the Defence Department says it's unclear how many received payments because of lost records.
> 
> However, the department has confirmed that it has assessed about two dozen applications for compensation since 2000. Only three were approved for compensation.
> 
> The military insists it's difficult to establish a link between certain ailments and the chemicals used in the defoliants.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050623.wagento0623/BNStory/National/


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## Buzz

After reading some of the threads, I gathered the understanding that the active ingredient in Brushkill was 2, 4-D.  Which was named Agent Orange.   Wow.  Concidering the fact that we used this on our farm fields and on our lawns every year. IE) Killex, Par III.    I grew up in a farming community and worked for a couple of major players in the Agri instustry.    Handling Chems and spraying chems are not that environmentally friendly ..by any means. But after reading that it's 2, 4 -D I believe there is a 7 day qaurantine on entering the spayed area, going by Mem.  But I believe it's banned now as it is..But there is another called Dichloroprop which is an active agent that does the same thing.  But 2, 4-D works soo much better. I'm curious to know what the rate was ie) the concentration in a water solution.  Anyway,  I'm in Gagetown now and I've already been warned not to drink out of the fountains. I can live with that. The residue should be washed off a loooong time ago, for crawling around and I do feel bad for those that are suffering from the effects...it's disheartening because they may have entered an area with in the activity window. Effects can be looked up on a MSDS sheet. Acute and Chronic.  But back in the day we lined piping with Asbestos as well.  

Cheers
-Buzz


----------



## Skinny

http://www.canada.com/national/story.html?id=329f0096-abc9-4401-90ef-4970cc207d42

Feds downplay Agent Orange risk

The Canadian Press

Thursday, June 23, 2005

ADVERTISEMENT

CFB GAGETOWN -- Tempers flared at a military base in New Brunswick on Thursday as former military personnel and civilians hurled accusations at federal officials who were trying to relay information about the testing of the defoliant Agent Orange in the 1960s.

While federal officials stressed that the powerful chemical was used for only a few days in 1966 and 1967, members of the audience came forward to suggest Agent Orange and other toxic chemicals were used for a much longer period of time.

While Ottawa has said only a few barrels of Agent Orange was sprayed on the base, one member of the audience produced documents that suggested more than 6,000 barrels of various defoliants was sprayed, starting in the 1950s.

"We were poisoned by it,'' said a man who identified himself as a resident of Ontario who used to work at the base. "We ate our lunches with our bare hands and we ingested it.... I'm dying. I have to have a cancer test every three months.''

Others stepped up to microphones to recount the various ailments they and their friends and relatives have suffered over the years.

The responses from federal officials were often met with catcalls and loud groans.

Meanwhile, the federal officials said it's highly unlikely New Brunswick residents living near CFB Gagetown were exposed to the herbicide.

However, the Defence Department and the Veterans Affairs Department say they are encouraging those who believe they were affected by the defoliants to come forward and apply for a disability pension.

The Defence Department also says it will reopen its files to determine who was involved in the spraying program, and it will contact the U.S. authorities who conducted the tests.

The public meeting followed a series of media reports that have raised questions about the spraying program and how it may have affected members of the military and local residents.

Earlier this week, Defence officials told a Commons committee that Canadian Forces members who trained in the test areas would have had to ingest large amounts of contaminated material to be affected by the sprayings in 1966 and 1967.

And they insisted it's highly unlikely civilians outside the sprawling army base would have been exposed.

But some of the people who attended the public meeting Thursday stressed again and again that federal officials were making a mistake by taking such a narrow view of what went on at CFB Gagetown.

They urged federal officials to investigate the use of other defoliants over a longer time frame.

The use of the defoliants, which included Agent Orange, Agent Purple and Agent White, has been public knowledge in New Brunswick since 1981.

A handful of military personnel have received compensation for ailments linked to the spraying program, but the Defence Department says it's unclear how many received payments because of lost records.

However, the department has confirmed that it has assessed about two dozen applications for compensation since 2000. Only three were approved.

The military insists it's difficult to establish a link between certain ailments and the chemicals used in the defoliants.


----------



## Blakey

From the CBC
Link


----------



## Buzz

Blakey said:
			
		

> From the CBC
> Link



So I guess out east they've never seen a crop spayer, man we even have Rogaters that spray 100's of thousands of acres out here.  Anyone who grew up on a farm or in the country will know exactly what I'm talking about.  Personally I think we should start going after farmers out here!! Who's with me?!? No I didn't think so. And point taken! Plus I quote again let alone all the harmful toxic chemicals that they spray on their lawns every year or the veggies they buy in the store. Veggies  don't store chemicals in their tiny little plant cells and they keep themselves weed free.    And the media isn't going to take a simple "no cover up excuse"  Naturally they want something juicy and really maybe they should look in the mirror and ask themselves if they just sprayed the lawn and the dog went out for a roll in the grass..and the little Johnny wanted to play with the dog.   It's the same thing. But will always look for someone to blame. That's the problem with not reading the instructions. 

Cheers
-Buzz


----------



## Joe Blow

As I understand it, (and I encourage correction if it is needed here) the difference between agent orange and commercially available herbicides is a demonstrated - not assumed, but certain - link between the agent and various maladies.  Cancer being one of them.

I think it is being arguing that the compound degrades after a certain well known period, and hence no current risk endures.  However given the record of disclosure that the government has on this file, I would feel much more comfortable if an independent third party conducted soil and water samples on the training area and in the community.

My file handler at the CFRC intimates that I have good reason to be hopeful that I will be in Gagetown in the near future.  My wife feels anxious about living in that comunity and I can't say I blame her.  I am anxious about working there.  Not to mention the possibility of children.  Unless I see a proper handling of this file - including third party, independent verification of the risks of living and working there - I will need to re-examine my future.

How disappointing that would be!  ..After so many years looking forward to this.  A shame.  However I have more than myself to think about.



EDIT:  Additionally, a comparison of cancer rates (and other relevant maladies - ask a doc. what those would be I wouldn't know) in the population that has passed through the Gagetown vs. the general Canadian population (or the New Brunswick/Nova Scotia/ Maine regional population) needs to be conducted.  One that controls for time since the area was sprayed and direct exposure to the chemical.  

FURTHER EDIT: Given the known toxicity of the substance in question, anything less than the above recommended measures is lazy and arguably negligent (..perhaps criminally so if the consequences are injurious ..let alone grave).  

OK.. I'll let it rest there for now.  I invite reply.


----------



## pbi

Joe Blow: The spraying was approximately 40 years ago. Since that time, thousands of Cdn, US, UK and other nation's troops (including me) have cycled through courses and exercises that involved being out in the Gagetown training area for days and weeks: digging in it, crawling and sleeping in it, slogging through swamps and creeks, breathing dust and getting covered in mud. Unless we can see that there is some very clear indication that there are higher rates of cancer amongst these people (and higher rates that are not attributable to smoking or other causes...) I don't think you have much to worry about as far as recent exposure. I went through there on my Inf offr course in 1983 and spent eight consecutive months there. much of it in the field. As far as I know, neither I nor my peers are suffering from the effects described. The older individuals in question seem to have been exposed to chemical in the undiluted form as it was being applied (or shortly after) in the 1960s, so it is quite likely that they have bad effects. The last thing we need is unsubstantiated panic about the CTC training area: it will just confuse the issue and draw attention away from those who need it.

Cheers


----------



## Buzz

Joe Blow said:
			
		

> As I understand it, (and I encourage correction if it is needed here) the difference between agent orange and commercially available herbicides is a demonstrated - not assumed, but certain - link between the agent and various maladies.   Cancer being one of them.
> 
> I think it is being arguing that the compound degrades after a certain well known period, and hence no current risk endures.   However given the record of disclosure that the government has on this file, I would feel much more comfortable if an independent third party conducted soil and water samples on the training area and in the community.
> 
> My file handler at the CFRC intimates that I have good reason to be hopeful that I will be in Gagetown in the near future.   My wife feels anxious about living in that comunity and I can't say I blame her.   I am anxious about working there.   Not to mention the possibility of children.   Unless I see a proper handling of this file - including third party, independent verification of the risks of living and working there - I will need to re-examine my future.
> 
> How disappointing that would be!   ..After so many years looking forward to this.   A shame.   However I have more than myself to think about.
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT:   Additionally, a comparison of cancer rates (and other relevant maladies - ask a doc. what those would be I wouldn't know) in the population that has passed through the Gagetown vs. the general Canadian population (or the New Brunswick/Nova Scotia/ Maine regional population) needs to be conducted.   One that controls for time since the area was sprayed and direct exposure to the chemical.
> 
> FURTHER EDIT: Given the known toxicity of the substance in question, anything less than the above recommended measures is lazy and arguably negligent (..perhaps criminally so if the consequences are injurious ..let alone grave).
> 
> OK.. I'll let it rest there for now.   I invite reply.



Absolutely, and I can see a big cause for concern as I would be and am now.   But it's the same chemical domestically as you would buy as industrial.   Just in larger quantities. Also negligence in improper spraying techiques ei)rates over a given area usually has the kinda of thought more is better when infact more is worse.   All the agent is good for is not killing the trees but to wipe off the leaves ..so the concentration right there tells me it's not enough to pose harm on the surface unless your standing right under the plane as it wizzes by.    Though, leaching into the soil and entering the water table poses a concern.      

But to further my understanding.   It's everywhere in Canada.   Like I said Farmers spray a form of Chemical similar to agent orange on their field every year.   Year after year.   And living in the country do you not think maybe I've been exposed to certain chemicals but had no choice as the same as anyone else living in the country versus the grand city living?   But also people living in the city spray their lawns for dandilions and thistle so it's not so grand and no worries of leaching into the soil because of treated water that comes to the tap.    Crawling around in the bush right now you would not have any exposure to it for there would be no residue.   Obviosuly if a broad leave plant can grow in a certain area there cannot be any chemical residue left over.   But taking soil samples to a depth of 24" could satisfy the concern and also   water samples could prove benificial.   

All I'm saying is that talk to a farmer that is out there on his tractor spraying his field, hopefully not under mist and in a light wind that goes in his direction.   And having years and years of exposure. The concentration they use in a solution is the most they can get.   More bang for their buck  

But to me it's just a small thing made big......Cripes come out to the west!! LOL

Cheers!
-Buzz


----------



## Sandy Skipton

Just for info for those that have asked and those that seem to think that the 'Agents' compare to what farmers spray... 
The 'Agents' are not just 2,4 D   as you can see by the description.
Note the strength as compared to the  '2,4,5-T (Current)' at the bottom of the list

Information obtained at        http://www.gmasw.com/ao_terms.htm

Agent Orange A herbicide containing trace amounts of the toxic contaminant dioxin that was used in the Vietnam War to defoliate areas of jungle growth. The name was derived from the orange identifying strip on drums in which it was stored. Agent Orange was a 1:1 mixture of the n-butyl esters of 2,4-dichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4-D) and 2,4,5-trichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4,5-T). A byproduct contaminant of the manufacturing process for 2,4,5-T is 2,3,7,8-tetrachlorodibenzo-para-dioxin (TCDD), commonly referred to as dioxin. Demand for military Agent Orange resulted in higher levels of dioxin contamination than in the 2,4,5-T produced for civilian applications.

Description                TCDD (Dioxin)       Foliage Use  
Agent Orange            1.77 to 40 ppm     Broad Leaf 
Agent Blue (Purple)    32.8 to 45 ppm     Narrow Leaf 
Agent Red (Pink)        65.6 ppm             Anything 
Agent White (Green)  65.6 ppm              Broad Leaf 
Silvex                        1 to 70 ppm          Fungicide 
2,4,5-T (Current)        0.1 ppm or less      Broad Leaf 

Farmers do spray chemicals but think,  they know what they are spraying and they also know the precaution's that SHOULD be taken. Under any circumstances dioxins are poison and IF the local people and service members had KNOWN then they too could have taken precautions. The major point is that they were not informed (except to be told it was safe) and when the government discovered it was not safe, the government chose to NOT let these people know. Chemicals are not something to be afraid of if they are used properly and if our medical services have the information to know what to watch for in the event of a health problem developing... Government secrecy and lying when they could have come forward so many times in the past has just become pretty overwhelming to those that have lost family members when medical attention could have and may have extended their life and mostly their quality of life. Being ill or having pain for years, not knowing why and doctors not knowing what the cause might have been is TORTURE, both mental and physical for the person and for their families....


----------



## Buzz

MIKsam said:
			
		

> Just for info for those that have asked and those that seem to think that the 'Agents' compare to what farmers spray...
> The 'Agents' are not just 2,4 D     as you can see by the description.
> Note the strength as compared to the   '2,4,5-T (Current)' at the bottom of the list
> 
> Information obtained at            http://www.gmasw.com/ao_terms.htm
> 
> Agent Orange A herbicide containing trace amounts of the toxic contaminant dioxin that was used in the Vietnam War to defoliate areas of jungle growth. The name was derived from the orange identifying strip on drums in which it was stored. Agent Orange was a 1:1 mixture of the n-butyl esters of 2,4-dichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4-D) and 2,4,5-trichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4,5-T). A byproduct contaminant of the manufacturing process for 2,4,5-T is 2,3,7,8-tetrachlorodibenzo-para-dioxin (TCDD), commonly referred to as dioxin. Demand for military Agent Orange resulted in higher levels of dioxin contamination than in the 2,4,5-T produced for civilian applications.
> 
> Description                        TCDD (Dioxin)           Foliage Use
> Agent Orange                  1.77 to 40 ppm        Broad Leaf
> Agent Blue (Purple)      32.8 to 45 ppm        Narrow Leaf
> Agent Red (Pink)            65.6 ppm                    Anything
> Agent White (Green)   65.6 ppm                     Broad Leaf
> Silvex                                    1 to 70 ppm               Fungicide
> 2,4,5-T (Current)            0.1 ppm or less         Broad Leaf
> 
> Farmers do spray chemicals but think,   they know what they are spraying and they also know the precaution's that SHOULD be taken. Under any circumstances dioxins are poison and IF the local people and service members had KNOWN then they too could have taken precautions. The major point is that they were not informed (except to be told it was safe) and when the government discovered it was not safe, the government chose to NOT let these people know. Chemicals are not something to be afraid of if they are used properly and if our medical services have the information to know what to watch for in the event of a health problem developing... Government secrecy and lying when they could have come forward so many times in the past has just become pretty overwhelming to those that have lost family members when medical attention could have and may have extended their life and mostly their quality of life. Being ill or having pain for years, not knowing why and doctors not knowing what the cause might have been is TORTURE, both mental and physical for the person and for their families....



Your website refers to a questionable site...sorry but I went to the chem company that makes it today.  I'm not arguing that there may have been some question form back in the day ...but those complaining about it today. That's the biggest question.

http://www.dowagro.com/ca/prod/frontline-2.htm

Please feel free too look up any other chemical ei) Diathane and the MSDS sheet on that one. 

Also remember that these checmicals compound in concentration as they leach into the soil...So one year its less...but the following year it double than the original rate.  Third year, triple the original...plus whatever else is applied to make a nice cocktail down there multiplied by however many years it's been applied.  see?

It's not just the farmer applying the chemical.  Maybe can't see the forest for the trees. My point was that it's being applied every year sinse the dawn of day here.  The concentration level could be through the roof.   There has been even cases of nitrate poisoning or levels close to that has killed off stock and has entered water supply.   

Sorry but those are the facts and can't hide or deny them...I really don't think the gov't was denying it or currently is. Everything applied is also approved by the provincial gov't aswell or to prov standard.  so maybe they are to blame as well?  There's a thought. 

All in good conversation hahaha   

Cheers!
-Buzz


----------



## dalriada

Hi Everyone

My name is Kenneth Dobbie and I was one of those present at the DND Technical Briefing at the CFB Gagetown Base Theatre on Thursday, June 23. I presented information to the panel which is contained in a document that I obtained from the DND freedom of information officer in Ottawa (Thanks Milksam). 

The Document was orignally produced in 1982 and it includes a range of documentation from drums of herbicide being buried on the base to the numbers of acres sprayed with various defoliaants over a period of 38 years from 1956 to 1984. 

You can get a copy of the document by calling the Freedom of Information Officer at 613-992-9560. It will be sent to you immediately free of charge. It is called #A-2004-00207.

I am going to quote from it.

As follows:

Page 84 of the document reads

OVERVIEW OF HERBICIDE SPRAY PROGRAMME 1956-1984

Please note that Agent Orange is 2,4,D + 2,4,5,T

1956 - 3,687 acres sprayed  2,4,D + 2,4,5,T 
1957 - 3,879 acres sprayed  2,4,D + 2,4,5,T
1958 - 8,018 acres sprayed  AMMATE + 2,4,5,T
1959 - No Spraying Done
1960 - 9,079 acres sprayed 2,4,5,T
1961 - 5,189 acres sprayed 2,4,5,T
1962 - No spraying done
1963 - 9,653 acres sprayed 2,4,D + 2,4,5,T
1964 - 9,225 acres sprayed 2,4,D + 2,4,5,T

Quoting from Page 82

"In 1964 a spray application accident occured. 2,4,-D PLUS 2,4,5,T was being applied by fixed wing aircraft. A temperature inversion and increasing soil termperature suspended the spary above the target species. Several hours later the increased winds carried the spray to the Upper Gagetown and Sheffield Area shown on the map as Area 3 (See Annex B) ** Annex B was not included in the package**. The Crown paid approximately $250,000 to several market gardens in the area as reparation for th damage to their crops"

In 1965, DND continued with the spraying program using another defoliant called TORDON 101. Which is a mixture of Picloram 65G/L and 2,4,D 240G/L
In case you are not familiar with the American name for TORDON 101. iT IS CALLED AGENT WHITE. 

1965 4,708 acres sprayed with TORDON 101
1966 8,431 acres sprayed with TORDON 101 + What the Americans Sprayed That Year In terms of Agent Orange
1967 7,375 acres sprayed with TORDON 101 + What the Americans Sprayed that Year, In Terms of Agent Orange and Agent Purple

and so on...

It concludes on page 84 with the totals sprayed from 1956 to 1984.

I quote

181,038 Acres sprayed   6,504 barrels used

That is 292,680 galllons of defoliants which included six out of eight years with Agent Orange and 20 years of spraying TORDON 101 either by itself or combinations of other  chemicals which included TORDON 101, THEN TORDON 10K, OR SPIKE 5P OR HERBEC 20P

Again note that TORDON 101 BY ITSELF IS AGENT WHITE.

Altogether, CFB Gagetown was sprayed with 1,328,767 liters of chemical defoliants over 181,038 acres (73,264) hectares from 1956 to 1984. 

This is all contained in the DND document. 

Now the big question is how much more defoliant chemicals have been sprayed since 1984 to present. 

I just wanted to clear things up a bit as to how much spraying was done. And if you have a hard time believing it. Call the number and ask for the document. 

I could not believe the amounts myself...but seeing is believing especially when it comes directly from the Government itself. 

It is no wonder that we who worked in the training area are sick. 

Ken Dobbie


----------



## Blakey

I'm a little bit worried...question is, "Should I be...?".
I was posted to CFB Gagetown during the later part of '89 to mid '89, approx six months in total, up and down the Lawfield Corridor (/ Tank Park) many times as well as other parts of the trng area (Scotty Dog Woods, Enniskillen, ect...). After reading that this thing has a "half life" of nine years.....
I feel fine, although some might say different....maybe i should just get a full physical done.


----------



## Fry

totally off topic, but your icon of spiderman, isn't that the same dance napoleon dynamite did? That movie was hilarious. Watched it 43 times and counting. Still hilarious.


----------



## AirSgt

Blakey said:
			
		

> I'm a little bit worried...question is, "Should I be...?".
> I was posted to CFB Gagetown during the later part of '89 to mid '89, approx six months in total, up and down the Lawfield Corridor (/ Tank Park) many times as well as other parts of the trng area (Scotty Dog Woods, Enniskillen, ect...). After reading that this thing has a "half life" of nine years.....
> I feel fine, although some might say different....maybe i should just get a full physical done.



Hello:

        I am MikSam's son (Read back to see what we have been through) and yes as per most of the members in my family I am in the forces. I would suggest anyone that may have been exposed to such an enviorment should be examined. Now I as my mother Miksam has done urge anyone who may have record or pictures of sports events in that area please come forward and help us out.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

An update.. but not the one we wanted to post... No results on tests yet... 

The Pathologist was asked to do a Toxicology when doing the autopsy... I went to see the pathologist and asked about progress... he says about another month until he will release the report... and that they CAN NOT do Toxicology for Dioxins... If I find a lab, he will turn tissue (parts of my husband) over to me and it will be my responsibility to have it transported to a lab and pay the cost for the toxicology to be done.  I asked if he knew of any lab I could contact, his response was no. 

So we are left with still trying to find a way to prove that my husband was in Gagetown.. we had hoped the toxicology would show that he had been exposed, which would have narrowed the info that DVA wants. There would be no other way that he could have been exposed and our story would have a more believable ring of truth... (we KNOW that he was there).

My younger son was at the University of NB to check the local newspapers 'Oromocto Post-Gazette' in hopes that a local sports writer may have printed info that would show that my husbands sport team in Gagetown... This paper, with various titles, started publishing under its initial banner 'Camp Gagetown Gazette' on December 16,1960. The University had papers starting with the date of April 11th 1968 but nothing before that date, so my son asked why. We now have a letter that says, I quote, "_A year or so ago, the result of contacting by phone various departments: local library, Gagetown Military Museum, CFB Gagetown's Public Affairs Officer, staff at the newspaper, National Archives, National Library and the Department of Heritage, and the Department of National Defense Library produced no earlier copies of this paper. Of note, staff at the newspaper had indicated they believed the papers they had stored were transferred to the Department of National Defence as requested."_
Why did the Dept of National Defence request these papers?  Is all this part of the same coverup that seems to be what we are seeing?

I see my eldest son has posted here as well and as he says.. we are back to begging for any info that anyone might have concerning my husbands soccer team being in Gagetown... the first post of this topic gives an outline of what we are looking for... 
Our search began about Apr 2003 and it seems all our roads have led to dead ends... just like the the men who travelled them before us.


----------



## Strike

> The University had papers starting with the date of April 11th 1968 but nothing before that date, so my son asked why. We now have a letter that says, I quote, "A year or so ago, the result of contacting by phone various departments: local library, Gagetown Military Museum, CFB Gagetown's Public Affairs Officer, staff at the newspaper, National Archives, National Library and the Department of Heritage, and the Department of National Defense Library produced no earlier copies of this paper. Of note, staff at the newspaper had indicated they believed the papers they had stored were transferred to the Department of National Defence as requested."
> Why did the Dept of National Defence request these papers?  Is all this part of the same coverup that seems to be what we are seeing?



I think you may be looking into this a little too deeply.  DND is a big machine, and you don't know which department asked for them.  For all you know, these papers may have been transfered to DND so that they could answer another ATI request.  Just trying to lower the panic level here.

*However*, if you are looking for a lab to test for dioxins, I would suggest contacting a university that does research in environmental sciences.  When I went to school (Chem Eng) the Enviro Science department used to test livers of various animals for the presence of PCBs in fatty tissues and livers because they would tend to accumulate (google bioaccumulation).  Dioxins will accumulate in the same way.  Given that there are several schools doing research in these two topics, you should have no problems finding a school to go to (or being refered to one) that can do this testing.


----------



## Fry

www.mun.ca

They're a decent University with a fairly extensive bio/chem research program. They managed to cure parkinson's in fruit flies!


----------



## honestyrules

Funny stuff!

An american general said that until DND declares Gagetown's training area safe 100%, they won't train there anymore!!!!!!!!!!!

They are the ones that sprayed the stuff in our back yard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## dalriada

Hi Everyone

Just to clear things a bit once again...

Yes, the Americans, with DND's permission did spray Agent Orange and Agent Purple in small quantities in the summers of 1966 & 1967. But during this same time our DND was ALSO spraying Agent White from 1965 to 1984 inclusive COVERING 132,318 ACRES with Agent White (TORDON 101).  

Our DND was spraying Agent Orange (2.4,D + 2,4,5,T) for six years out of 8 from 1956 to 1964 as follows, covering 47,820 ACRES. 

1956    3,687 Acres sprayed  with 2, 4, D and 2, 4, 5, T

1957    3,879 Acres sprayed  with 2, 4, D and 2, 4, 5, T 

1958    8,018 Acres  sprayed with 2, 4, D and 2, 4, 5, T 

1959    No spraying

1960    9,079 Acres sprayed with AMMATE and 2, 4, 5, T

1961    5,189 Acres sprayed with 2, 4, 5, T

1962    No spraying

1963    9,643 Acres sprayed with 2, 4, D and 2, 4, 5, T

1964    9,225 Acres sprayed with 2, 4, D and 2, 4, 5, T

It appears that Agent White (TORDON 101) may have been just as deadly as Agent Orange and Agent Purple. Our DND sprayed Agent White (TORDON 101) from 1965 to 1984 THROUGHOUT THE BASE TRAINING AREA. 

It contained a combination of Picloram and 2,4,D. The deadly stuff is Picloram which contained as an "inert agent" Hexachlorobenzene (HCB). It has been identifed by the U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES, Public Health Service, Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry as being a deadly poison.

The nasty part of Tordon 101 is the Picloram which has an inert agent called Hexachlorobenzene. The EPA
has established that Picloram, HCB and its biodegradable successor, Pentachlorophenol (Penta) can and do harm to the liver, kidneys, blood, lungs, nervous system, immune system, and gastrointestinal tract yet our governments continued to spray almost a million liters of this poison over the base where human contact was inevitable. 

Short-term:  EPA has found picloram to potentially cause the following health effects when people are exposed to it at levels above the MCL for relatively short periods of time: Damage to central nervous system, weakness, diarrhea, weight loss. 

Long-term:  Picloram has the potential to cause the following effects from a lifetime exposure at levels above the MCL: liver damage.

Hexachlorobenzene seeks out aquifers and has been found at depths greater than 45 feet.  It is relatively stable in Water.  In loamy soil, it biodegrades and gives up a chloride ion and becomes Pentachlorophenol (Penta).  If ingested, HCB undergoes an immediate chemical change to become Penta.  Penta is also dangerous if inhaled, ingested with food or through dermal contact.  Since the liver is the filter of fluids in the body, the contaminants, dioxins and other chemicals have to pass through this organ and are absorbed by the fatty cells in the liver, bones and other internal organs. 

Thus over the years, we get sick with a host of diseases and disorders. 

I am in the midst of considering a class action lawsuit against the federal government in Federal Court in Ottawa. I have been approached by the leading class action law firm in Canada to start a class action. I do not believe that our government will do anything to adequately or properly compensate military or civilian victims of the spraying of 1.3 million liters of poisonous defoliant over a period of 28 years. 

No disability pension will ever compensate those who have died, those who are dying or those who are sick. The misery and suffering of every family involved has to be addressed properly. And no amount of money will ever make things right for failed health and runined lives but it will help the survivors. 

If you wish to add your name to the list, email me at kdobbie2@cogeco.ca

REMEMBER WE STILL DON'T KNOW YET WHAT THEY HAVE BEEN SPRAYING FROM 1985 TO 2005. 

Kenneth Dobbie


----------



## dalriada

Just an added note to the class action. There is absolutely no cost to you to sign on. If there is no award, you pay nothing.

If damages are awarded by the federal court, then you share in the award of damages provided you have been able to give proof that you were medically affected and have an exposure episode. 

To check out the firm dealing with this, here is the URL for their website. 

http://www.merchantlaw.com/

Kenneth Dobbie


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## agentorangealert

Hi Folks:

I just wanted to say hello and introduce myself. My name is Art Connolly and  I am an army brat who spent his younger years at CFB Gagetown. I have created a website www.agentorangealert.com. I have received comments from some of the people at this messageboard and I invite you to have a look at the www.agentorangealert.com site. All and any comments are appreciated.

Thanks 
Art


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## Strike

> The nasty part of Tordon 101 is the Picloram which has an inert agent called Hexachlorobenzene. The EPA
> has established that Picloram, HCB and its biodegradable successor, Pentachlorophenol (Penta) can and do harm to the liver, kidneys, blood, lungs, nervous system, immune system, and gastrointestinal tract yet our governments continued to spray almost a million liters of this poison over the base where human contact was inevitable.



Pardon my being the devil's advocate here, but it would help if you posted the date that the EPA banned this substance.  If it was banned AFTER the spraying stopped then this statement is moot.  After all, hindsight is 20/20.



> REMEMBER WE STILL DON'T KNOW YET WHAT THEY HAVE BEEN SPRAYING FROM 1985 TO 2005.



This statement just serves to cause fear where it may not even be warranted.

break:break

Art,
Very good web site and very well laid out.  Keep up the good work.


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## Gun Shy

In the 80'S A Team of civilians came to the base, to do test on known buried 45 gallon drums. There were soldiers from various schools tasked to dig up the barrels. Some of theses barrels were filled partially to fully filled with some unknown* liquid[/b]..   The civilain team drew samples from all the barrels. The rumour at the time these barrels were supposed to be agent orange. When we asked several weeks later what the liquid was in the barrels. The party line was "WATER". But what really upset me about was this incident was that the morning before we were to dig up the barrels we had blood drawn and then the following day we had to give blood again. Some of the barrels were rusted out and they too had been filled then the liquid would have seeped into the ground.*


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## dalriada

Hi Everyone

I just wanted to reply to "Strike's" comments about my post as follows, as he says and I quote:

"This statement just serves to cause fear where it may not even be warranted"

Referring to my statement below: 

REMEMBER WE STILL DON'T KNOW YET WHAT THEY HAVE BEEN SPRAYING FROM 1985 TO 2005. 

I don't believe that I am causing fear where it may not be warranted. I was poisoned by Agent Orange and then by Agent White. And as a result, I have seven major organ dysfunctions and I am tested for liver and pancreatic cancer every three months. 

I was in the freaking hospital SIX times last year. One time I almost didn't make it!!

I am dying and that, I believe, gives me the right to warn people about what exactly has been sprayed. It not a question of causing fear, it is a question of causing people to ask legitimate and legal questions to which they have a right to know. 

NO ONE did anything about the issue of poisoning of military or civilian personnel. We were lied to and misled on a massive scale. If someone had done something about the mess back then, maybe a lot more people would be alive because of seeking treatment for cancers a lot earlier if we had known about the poison. 

What I am doing is alerting people to the fact that we DO NOT KNOW what has been sprayed on the Base since 1985, and it CONCERNS NOT ONLY ME BUT HUNDREDS, POSSIBLY THOUSANDS OF OTHERS AS TO WHAT HAS BEEN SPRAYED THERE IN THE PAST 20 YEARS. 

We have been lied to and misled, we still have an official position that only Agent Orange and Agent Purple was sprayed by the Americans over a short period of time in the summer of 1966 and 1967. Well, excuse me for bursting anyone's balloon but there was a policy of defoliation in place from 1956 to 1984 which involved spraying of Agent Orange & Agent White by our own government, that does not even include what the Americans sprayed.

From 1956 to 1984, our government allowed the spraying of Agent Orange and Agent White on a massive scale. They sprayed Agent Orange from '56 to '64, then switched to Agent White from '65 to '84. It involved the spraying of:

Total Acreage sprayed from 1956 to 1984 -  181,038 Acres sprayed with 6,504 (45 gallon barrels) or 292,680 imperial gallons or 1,328,767 litres of defoliant chemicals. Just in case your eyes popped out at that, it is available from the DND Freedom of Information Officer at 613-992-9560. Ask for document 
#A-2004-00207. It will be sent out to you free of charge. 

Since I HAD to access this information through the Freedom of Information Act from the Department of National Defence, what makes anyone think that the government is going to tell us what they sprayed at CFB Gagetown for the past twenty years?  

Given the current stance of the government on the spraying, they are certainly not going to tell us unless someone accesses the information and I have a request in now for that information. 

Kenneth Dobbie


----------



## Strike

Kenneth,

I am just being the devil's advocate here so please put the scythe away for the moment.  I'm just wondering, in your request under the A to I Act did you request info on what was sprayed after 1984?  It does not seem that this subject, especially given the current climate, would be forbidden for distribution due to classification.  If you can't get access to it I'm sure someone from the press can.  In fact, with all the focus on the spraying (and my knowledge of how the press works) if it hasn't been in the paper yet, there's probably nothing to worry about.  So, since we DON'T know what was sprayed (if anything) during that time then I stand by my comment that fear may well be unwarranted.

Of note, I did some research through my own papers from university as I did some studying on the subject (keeping in mind it was several years ago).  When DOW Chemical was looking for recertification of the Picloram in the US, they were required by the EPA to reduce the presence of HCB to less than 200 parts per million.  Numerically, so everyone can see how small that is, it equates to 0.0002% of HCB in the Pircloram.  So, was Agent White sprayed during those 20 years?  Quite possibly, but with nowhere near the same amount of possible carcinogenics (I say this only because HCB is not classified as a class 1 [carcinogenic] chemical) as were done previously.  Although I pulled this out of my notes, this can easily be found online.

I do empathize with you as my father is a survivor of cancer and is not in the best of health.  After crawling around for years in the bilge and double bottoms of ships, Lord only knows what he's injested.

On a completely lighter note -- please never assume the sex of a person.  There's nothing that steams me more.  Sort of like having someone answer the phone, "Cpl Bloggins.  How can I help you SIR?"  Ooooh, just gets to me.


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## dalriada

Hi ...

Just for your info, yes I have asked for exactly what has been sprayed from 1985 to present. And the FoI officer has complied that he will provide the information. I have been told by dozens of military personnel that the spraying is done every summer and has been since 1984. Thus, I want to know what has been sprayed as I am sure everyone else does as well. As for the press, I am in daily contact with various members of the press, TV, radio and newspapers since I went public with this whole mess. I will be doing some more work with Louise Elliott of the CBC on followup stories about Agent White, etc. 

I know that Dow had to apply for re-certification of Picloram and it was with the understanding that they reduce the HCB to less than 200 ppm because it was much higher than that according to the information and since it was at the time a 100% toxifier of human tissue it had to be reduced or otherwise the EPA would never have given their approval for re-certification and the final approval for the new Picloram was given in 1988. HCB does cause disorders of the liver, immune, respiratory, hepatic, gastroenterological and nerve systems. Thus, is a deadly poison.  

TORDON 101 was sprayed in CFB Gagetown from 1965 to 1984 inclusive and according to the FoI document that I have, our government sprayed close to a milllion liters of the stuff and it was the pre 1988 version which is understood to be 25 times more toxic, thus the concern.

TORDON 101 is Agent White. 

I thank you for your thoughts about my health...

and I never assume sex....**smile**

Perhaps you and I should trade emails...I can be reached at kdobbie2@cogeco.ca


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## X Royal

Last evening on a local TV news broadcast (NewPL in London) there was a story about a 86 year old former soldier who claims to have buried 4 drums of agent orange on the base in 1969. He was quoted as saying being told by a superior "bury it, no maps, no records, don't tell me where and to forget it completely". 
The DCO of Meaford was interviewed and denied any knowledge of agent orange at Meaford.
Also mentioned were the names of 3 others who assisted him to bury it. 2 are passed on and the other one denies the story saying "I would remember that" but stated he knew all the names listed.

*What does everone think?*

BTW the former soldier offered to return to Meaford to try to locate the drums.
If he could locate them it would prove his statement and lead to a clean-up. And if unsuccessfully it would still leave questions.

*IMO the thought of someone digging in and exposing themselves and others should be fully investigated.*

Pro Patria


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## Sergeant295

As much as I have no real knowlege of Agent Orange as it was far before my time, I would like to think that anything remotly credible related to the subject would be investigated by the Canadian Goverment. I would hate to think that recruits from the Royal Canadian Regiment's Infantry School were being possibly exposed to the Agent for know reason.


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## JBP

Great, this is exactly what I want to hear since I'm currently training in Meaford!!! This week starting Monday I'm doing the field week where we learn how to man a trench+dig a trench and all that wonderful offensive+defensive ops stuff... 

At least I'll know what that really rusty barrel is if I find one whilst digging my trench! Highly unlikely and not plausable, but it could certainly make for a bad day...


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## X Royal

R031 Pte Joe said:
			
		

> At least I'll know what that really rusty barrel is if I find one whilst digging my trench! Highly unlikely and not plausable, but it could certainly make for a bad day...



Highly unlikely - *Yes*
Plausable -* ?*

Best Wishes - Keep Safe


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## Fishbone Jones

Well, we've been digging in there for years and nobody's come across it yet, and the areas not really that big. Not doubting the old guys word though. Think about it. Tell four guys to go out and dig a hole in that soil, and it probably wouldn't be very deep, especially if unsupervised. It's all shale and fieldstone. The drums would have probably disintigrated by now, letting the chemical leach into the surrounding soil and detroying any vegetation in the area. Just conjecture mind you.

Joe,
Don't panic if you hit metal while digging. The areas littered with it, which would make finding the drums with a detector a massive pain.


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## X Royal

recceguy said:
			
		

> Well, we've been digging in there for years and nobody's come across it yet, and the areas not really that big. Not doubting the old guys word though. Think about it. Tell four guys to go out and dig a hole in that soil, and it probably wouldn't be very deep, especially if unsupervised. It's all shale and fieldstone.



Or would they not be more likely to bury it in the sandy area really not that far from the part of the camp where the buildings were at the time. Sand or rock & shale? :
Lets all hope its not there instead of hasn't been hit yet.
Or even worse: Hit & not realized.


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## Fishbone Jones

Anythings possible. Bring the old guy in and see. Don't know how much it would help though. I used to go there in the early seventies and when I went back in the 90's I hardly recognised anything.


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## X Royal

recceyguy;
 I agree. Let him try. If he spent lots of time there he might recognize the lay of the land. Although the buildings are in the same area eveything is different. Most likely the road paths in the surrounding area's are in the same place.
 I know I could walk over the former CFB London and pin point where the buildings were. I know a lot smaller area but what does anyone have to loose if he's right.
BTW I bet I still could navigate thoughout the old Camp Ipperwash and know where I was without a map. BTDT many times.


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## a_majoor

Given the nature of the soil, and the supposition these guys were unsupervised at the time, the simplest solution would hav been to go to Vail's point or the cape and toss the drums into the lake. Now there's a fine outcome for you....

This story is full of a lot of holes. Where did that "Agent Orange" come from in the first place? The entire base was essentially abandoned from from the late 1950's to the early 1980's, who was he with, when and where? Etc.

If the drums do come to light, they will probably be revealed as some sort of vehicle waste product ("Joe, get rid of these drums of used oil; they're in the way..."), which is bad enough, but doesn't need to be expanded into a big scare story.


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## X Royal

Art: as to the truth of the story? I just posted what was reported on the TV. As for the entire training area being essentailly abandoned from the late 50's to early 80's BS. Although the training area had few or no permenently posted staff most of the time it was used quite regularly. It was an annex of CFB Borden.
As for them being unsupervised I believe the soldier was mentioned to be a Cpl. which in 1969 would of been a supervisory postition.
And if it was just oil why the "no records,don't tell me, forget it, no maps ect." instructions? Dumping oil into the ground in 1969 would of been and was a common practice.


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## Kat Stevens

An almost identical story just popped up about troops burying toxic glop in Aldershot, NS.  Read it in passing in the Edmonton sun, no link avail, sorry...

Kat


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## Blackhorse7

Do it.  Nothing worse than the Government trying to cover up a situation that may still endanger current CF staff.  Get ahead of the problem, admit what happened, and say "Allright, it shouldn't have happened, but it did.  So let's fix it."


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## X Royal

Can't be 100% sure anything happened but there should be enough cause for a full investigation.


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## ArmyRick

Wait for it . Watch and shoot. Don't speculate.


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## FormerHorseGuard

i tend to believe that  the old soldier buried something out there.  my grandfather told me about burying all sorts of stuff in various bases as away  to get rid of stuff. he told me about burying a  drum full of cap badges from his RCOC  days, they  were rebadging to the CF cap badges and he was told to get rid of the surplus babdge bury them and forget about them. 
lots of stuff is buried on bases, remember signs in Petawawa about no dig areas because of bruried materials and worried it would hurt some one if found. 
use to be an area near the near the site of the RES TRAINING area on the Plains that had those signs in the late 80s early  90s.

lots of stuff is hidden away  by  digging a hole, if agent Orange was dropped in a hole, the barrel would of rusted out by now i would think.
if they find something out there I am sure the news would  blow it out  of context.  watch it be a barrel of dirty water from the kitchen or soemthing as simple as that.  lots of chemicals in the army were not disposed of correctly  for todays standards.  We have a vast history  of dumping in oceans, digging holes , only  to find it a short term solution, spend a lot of money on clean up later.


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## Old Sweat

Re buried material in Petawawa (and other places), I suspect most of the contamination was from old camp grounds and especially the pit toilets we used to dig in the bad old days. The drill was to mark the sites with foul ground signs and the year of use marked on it. We also dug grease pits for kitchens and threw both wet and dry waste in these. I also recall as a young gunner on kitchen fatigues during summer concentrations of scrubbing out garbage cans in the Petawawa River.


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## dalriada

Hi Everyone, the following is a letter that I sent to our DND Minister

The Honourable Bill Graham:

I am writing to you in your capacity as a member of the committee studying the spraying of Agent Orange and various other defoliants at CFB Gagetown. 

As you are now aware, there is a class action lawsuit in progress against the Federal Government.

We took this action, along with others, because your government is not listening to the information contained in your own documents that deadly defoliants were sprayed for 28 years involving 181,000 acres with 1.3 million liters of poisonous Dioxin and Hexachlorobenzene, (Agent Orange, Agent Purple and Agent White). These chemicals are persistent bioaccumulative pollutants. 

By doing so the policy of defoliation poisoned hundreds, possibly thousands of people who are dead, dying or sick. 

I can tell you that we are appalled with the government's claim that Agent Orange/Agent Purple was only sprayed for a short period in 1966 and 1967.  

We have a DND document and so do you, that was obtained under the freedom of information act that shows that there was a government policy of active and deliberate defoliation over a period of 28 years from 1956 to 1984. The document is very detailed and shows the amounts of Agent Orange, Agent Purple and Agent White that were sprayed on the base year by year, the amounts of acreage each year, the number of barrels each year, the ratio of the mixes each year and the kill ratio each year. Also the cost per acre each year is broken down according to which chemical was used. 

This document was made available to the government on June 23.  Yet your government sill maintains the position of 1966 and 1967 spraying only. I have to say that this continuation of a denial of the truth in the face of your own DND's excellent documentation make your government's position laughable. It is at the point of turning into a Monty Python sketch. However, because of the nature of the actions of the past in poisoning both the environment and the hundreds or thousands of people there is nothing remotely funny about any of this. 

How can you deny your own documentation? How can you continue to bury the truth? How can you expect us to believe anything that is said now by our government? 

A public inquiry will tell the truth. 

It was the Americans that did it, not us; that is the message that the public is supposed to swallow. And that it was only a very small quantity over a period of seven days. Is that what you seriously think people will believe? Think again, because they know the truth and the anger out here is growing daily. 

What is so damaging is that your own documents show that 2,4-D + 2,4,5-T (which the Americans call Agent Orange) was sprayed for six years out of eight from 1956 to 1964 covering almost 50,000 acres. Then in 1965, the military switched to TORDON 101, which is made up of Picloram and 2,4-D. They sprayed this and other herbicides for 20 years covering another 130,000 acres. 

What is not generally known is that TORDON 101 is what the Americans called Agent White. 

As mentioned, TORDON 101 contains Picloram. Unfortunately for the health of the troops, contractors and the families of both military and civilians who used the training area, Picloram contained the deadly Hexachlorobenzene (HCB) which causes multiple diseases and organ failures. 

The other issue of civilians not being exposed is a blatant lie that continues to be the position of a supposedly enlightened government. 

The training area was not only used for military exercises, it was in fact also a recreation area for all the families of military personnel for decades. Families went on picnics on a regular basis, they swam in the lakes, streams and rivers, they ate the millions of blueberries, and they drank the spring water at the Shirley road. Everyone did because the chlorinated water in the PMQ's in Oromocto was so dreadful. Teenagers and children fished and ate the trout at the many lakes and rivers. The Camp Gagetown Fish & Game Club was very active and had many thousands of members over the years. People hunted the game and ate it. People fished the trout and pickerel and ate them in the hundreds of thousands. 

Families used to go out to the training area and pick the apples at the old orchards of the expropriated farms that made up the training area. We used to pick bushels of Macintosh apples, mum made apple sauce and pies and packed the apples in newspaper in cardboard boxes for winter storage. Everyone did. It was an accepted and practiced way of life for military families at Base Gagetown. 

Families, including children over a period of almost 30 years used the training area for recreational purposes and were exposed to all the chemicals that were sprayed there. 

Thousands of children and wives exposed over a period of  three decades. Think about that. 

It is one thing for military personnel to have been exposed and poisoned because it was their job to be in the training area. However, while innocently enjoying the recreational amenities that the training area provided, children and wives were exposed to the poisonous Dioxin and Hexachlorobenzene.  

Another favourite thing that military families did at Christmas time was to go out into the training area and cut their Christmas tree and bring it home and have it stand in their living rooms for two or three weeks. Thousands of us did it over the years. And now to think that those trees stood in our houses for those weeks at Christmas time, polluting our houses with the deadly chemicals, exposing babies, children, wives and husbands at a time when each family was celebrating the joy of Christmas not knowing that they were being poisoned not by their Christmas tree but by their Chemical tree. 

I can remember that it was a big occasion in Oromocto every year in the first two weeks in January, everyone brought their trees to a field right beside the Oromocto High School and on a Saturday morning, with the fire department in attendance, this massive pile of Christmas trees, two or three thousand of them would be set on fire creating the most incredible bonfire that I have ever seen in my life. The smoke from the fire would choke the thousand or so people who gathered to watch the fire and in doing so just created more exposure to their future health. 

There were Boy Scout camps in the training area in the summers. I know because I was took part in two of them. One camp that I attended was in 1960 and then again in 1961. I still have photos that I took. And the army even issued us with Bell tents for our use when we were at the Boy Scout camps in the CFB Gagetown training area. 

For our government to say that civilians were not exposed to the defoliation chemicals in any way is not only a callous dismissal of fact but it infuriates the people who were there and are sick. 

Your government is denying 28 years of spraying and by doing so you are attempting to seriously limit your duty of full disclosure. 

There should be a formal judicial inquiry into this entire debacle. Only then will the truth be told. 

Respectfully, 

Kenneth Dobbie


----------



## dalriada

A class action lawsuit was filed July 12, 2005 against the Minister of Defence and the Attorney General of Canada as representatives of the Canadian Government. The action was filed in Federal Court in Ottawa and was filed because of the Government's responsibility for the spraying of toxic defoliants at CFB Gagetown from 1956 to 1984 causing wide spread harm to the environment and to all personnel who were exposed and poisoned by the defoliants. 

We took this action, along with others, because the government have not listened to the information contained in their own documents that they sprayed deadly defoliants for 28 years involving 181,000 acres with 1.3 million liters of poisonous Dioxin and Hexachlorobenzene, (Agent Orange, Agent Purple and Agent White). By doing so they poisoned hundreds, possibly thousands of people who are dead, dying or sick. 

By taking this action it will force the government to eventually admit the truth and when they do they will be found to be negligent. People will have the opportunity to join the action if they have suffered illness or death in their families. 

As the primary representative for the plaintiffs, I cannot list people's names as some people have told me that they are afraid of government repercussions if they come forward with their names publicly. For the moment, those who wish to be anonymous can be listed as John/Jane Does on the statement of claim. 

I can tell you that the list is growing, however it will still be a long process. We expect that the bulk of the people will sign up after the certification of the class action is completed and that will take some months to accomplish. We are pleased with that time frame as parliament will reconvene in September and our certification will be in the news again at that time. After certification there will be public announcements made and people who have not seen or heard of the class action will by then be aware that there is one and they will make the determination whether or not they join the action. In the case of the people who are currently "sitting on the fence" and there are many, they will make their minds up over time whether they will join or not. 

If you or a family member are sick or dying or you have a family member who has already died and you know that you or they were exposed to chemical defoliants at or near the training area in Base Gagetown then you can sign up now in the class action. This includes people who were living or are currently living in the farms and villages along the St. John River, or the communities bordering Base Gagetown training area. 

It does not matter if you are military or civilian. 

To sign up, visit the website of the law firm representing us in the class action suit. www.merchantlaw.com

There is no cost to you as the law firm is working entirely on a contingency fee of 25%. This fee is subject to reduction by the Court should the damages be very high. 

I can tell you that we are appalled with the government's claim that Agent Orange/Agent Purple was only sprayed for a short period in 1966 and 1967 and they are also saying publicly that it was only a few barrels of AO/AP that were involved covering a very small acreage. 

We have a DND document that was obtained under the freedom of information act that shows that there was a government policy of active and deliberate defoliation over a period of 28 years from 1956 to 1984. The document is very detailed and shows the amounts of Agent Orange, Agent Purple and Agent White that were sprayed on the base year by year, the amounts of acreage each year, the number of barrels each year, the ratio of the mixes each year and the kill ratio each year. Also the cost per acre each year is broken down according to which chemical was used. 

This document was made available to the government on June 23. It has also been sent to every cabinet minister as well as various opposition members and also the cabinet group that is now meeting on this issue. Yet they still maintain their position of 1966 and 1967. 

What is so damaging to the government is that their own documents show that 2,4-D + 2,4,5-T (which the Americans call Agent Orange) was sprayed for six years out of eight from 1956 to 1964 covering almost 50,000 acres. Then in 1965, they switched to TORDON 101, which is made up of Picloram and 2,4-D. They sprayed this and other herbicides for 20 years covering another 130,000 acres. 

What is not generally known is that TORDON 101 is what the Americans called Agent White. 

As mentioned, TORDON 101 contains Picloram. Unfortunately for the troops and the contractors and the families both military and civilians who used the training area, Picloram contained the deadly Hexachlorobenzene (HCB) which causes multiple diseases and organ failures. 

The other issue of civilians not being exposed is a blatant lie that continues to be the position of a supposedly enlightened government. 

The training area was not only used for military exercises, it was in fact also a recreation area for all the families of military personnel for decades. Families went on picnics on a regular basis, they swam in the lakes, streams and rivers, they ate the millions of blueberries, and they drank the spring water at the Shirley road. Everyone did because the chlorinated water in the PMQ's in Oromocto was so dreadful. Teenagers and children fished the trout at the many lakes and rivers. The Camp Gagetown Fish & Game Club was very active and had many thousands of members over the years. People hunted the game and ate it. People fished the trout and pickerel and ate them in the hundreds of thousands. 

Families used to go out to the training area and pick the apples at the old orchards of the expropriated farms that made up the training area. We used to pick bushels of Macintosh apples, mum made apple sauce and pies and packed the apples in newspaper in cardboard boxes for winter storage. Everyone did. It was an accepted and practiced way of life for the families of the military. 

Families, including children over a period of almost 30 years used the training area for recreational purposes and were exposed to all the chemicals that were sprayed there. 

Thousands of children and wives exposed over a period of  three decades. Think about that. 

It is one thing for military personnel to have been exposed and poisoned because it was their job to be in the training area. However, while innocently enjoying the recreational amenities that the training area provided, our children and wives were exposed to the poisonous Dioxin and Hexachlorobenzene.  

There were Boy Scout camps in the training area in the summers. I know because I was took part in two of them. One camp that I attended was in 1960 and then again in 1961. I still have photos that I took. And the army even issued us with Bell tents for our use when we were at the Boy Scout camps in the CFB Gagetown training area. 

For our government to say that civilians were not exposed to the defoliation chemicals in any way is not only a callous dismissal of fact but it infuriates the people who were there and are sick. 

Sign up now or sign up later at The Merchant Law Group's website: 

www.merchantlaw.com

Merchant Law Group has nine offices across Canada. Tony Merchant and his law firm are well known for their involvement in Mass & Class Action cases in Canada, currently including Silicon Breast Implant litigation, Class Actions concerning Vioxx/Celebrex & Bextra. Marsh McLennan, Cellular System Access Fees, Conrad Black & Hollinger Securities, Metis Veteran Benefit claims, Cryptosporidium Water proceedings, Indian Residential School litigation, CPR Anhydrous Ammonia action, as well as other securities and consumer class actions and cases regarding Brookfield assets, ISM Information Security damages, Tundra noxious gas emissions and the Canadian Wheat Board Pool transfers. 

Tony Merchant is known to be one of Canada's most active litigators with over 600 reported cases in leading law journals, and has argued thousands of cases before the Canadian and American Courts, in Trial and Administrative Courts, and the Courts of Appeal of various American and Canadian jurisdictions, the Federal Court of Canada, and the Supreme Court of Canada. Tony Merchant has a long history in pursuing public policy cases, and is also a former Member of the Legislative Assembly (MLA) of Saskatchewan.

If you have questions, email The Merchant Group at www.merchantlaw.com or call Tony Merchant or Casey Churko at 1-888-567-7777.

Remember, the Government is denying 28 years of spraying and by doing so they are attempting to seriously limit their duty to full disclosure and they are also denying your rights.  By banding together, we can make the Government do the right thing. 

Kenneth Dobbie


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## Young KH

Permission to Post asked for and Granted to me.






 Gary King
BellaOnline's Veterans Editor 
  



Agent Orange, Apathy, and Brooms

My article with regards to Agent Orange produced the result I wanted because it generated some responses. And those responses, plus some research, has turned up some things which require attention by anyone reading this article AND the American and Canadian people.

Agent Orange is a defoliant which was used by the U.S. Military during the Vietnam War. It is composed, or is supposed to be composed of equal parts of the chemicals 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T. The by-product of this combination is TCDD or dioxin. It is a colorless substance, which was code-named after the orange stripes used on storage barrels.

In 1971, the U.S. Military ceased using Agent Orange following increasing evidence of the harmful effects of the substance for humans. Dioxin has been linked to a variety of illnesses, malignancies and disorders. Many health effects resulting from exposure are delayed.

Although Canada did not participate in the Vietnam War, the Canadian government has confirmed that Agent Orange was sprayed on the Canadian Forces Base in Gagetown, New Brunswick in 1966 and 1967. No other incidences of Agent Orange testing or use in Canada have been confirmed.

Soldiers and civilians who lived and worked at CFB Gagetown have launched a class action against the government, alleging they were poisoned by Agent Orange and other toxic defoliants sprayed on the military base.

A statement of claim filed in Ottawa alleges from 1956 to 1984 the Department of National Defence sprayed a variety of carcinogenic chemicals, including Agent Orange, Agent Purple and Tordon 101, also known as Agent White.

Some of the chemicals contain such persistent organic pollutants as hexachlorabenzene and dioxin.

The claim alleges the plaintiffs and others suffered horrifying health effects such as cancer, organ failure, birth defects and neurological damage. The suit alleges some people have died as a result of their health problems.

According to the statement of claim, the government lied about the extent of spraying and the potential for harm.

Ken Dobbie is a walking medical horror story and he says its all because of toxic defoliants used at CFB Gagetown.

"I want the government to acknowledge that they did poison the base," said the 57-year-old father of two, who now lives in Kingston.

He says he was employed at CFB Gagetown in a government make-work project in 1966 that saw 200-250 teens working to clear and burn brush sprayed with defoliant.

No one was given protective gear and they ate their lunches next to the burning brush.

Since then, he's had peptic ulcers, gastro esophogeal reflux and "toxic hepatitis." In 1981, a benign growth began forming on his thyroid. He's been told the frontal lobes of his brain have atrophied by 30%. In 1998, his gall bladder "died" and doctors found he has a cirrhotic liver. He's recently been diagnosed with Type II diabetes.

"What amazes me is all the women and kids who are sick," he said. "We all have one thing in common -- we were all in that training area."

July 4th an outreach meeting with Col. Ryan Jestin, Commanding Officer, Base Gagetown. Col. Jestin committed to undertake soil, water, and vegetation testing for dioxide and other chemicals throughout the training areas of Base Gagetown rather than limit the testing to only the plots where Agent Orange and Purple were tested in 1966 and 1967.

The purpose of that meeting was to gather input, on where the samples for the tests should be collected, directly from veterans who were involved or inadvertently affected by the Chemical Spray Program. As we know, 2,4,5 T and 2,4 D were mixed and used throughout the training grounds as a herbicide to defoliate trees and brush as early as 1956. We also know that many veterans and civilians were directly and/or inadvertently exposed to these chemicals. Dosages of the mixtures in the mid-50's and early 60's generally contained higher levels of dioxin than mixtures used in the late 60's and early 70's.

The testing of samples from the training grounds of Base Gagetown will be conducted this summer by an independent company chosen by open tender. It will be open ended to allow for more testing later if the need arises. All results will be released to the public.

The Federal Government has acknowledged compensation for one veteran exposed to Agent Orange at Base Gagetown (2 others were for exposure to Agent Orange in Vietnam), they have a moral and ethical obligation to provide and gather information through an open/independent process that will lead to the compensation of all people directly affected, veterans and civilians, from exposure to highly toxic chemicals used as part of the chemical spray program at Base Gagetown.

That is in Canada!

The United States used Agent Orange in Vietnam. How much testing was done to ensure that military personnel would not be affected by Agent Orange and other chemicals? And if they did realize there was a great risk, did they do what was right and take the best precautions, or did they drop the chemical on the jungle anyway? When they did order the chemical dropped, did they make sure our troops on the ground knew where it was going to be and did they make sure our troops had the best protection available? Did they take into consideration the innocent civilians in South Vietnam and act accordingly, or simply go ahead and drop the chemical on the jungle? I think we all probably know the answers to those questions.

I was not aware that Agent Orange was a problem in Canada, but it was and is and now they have veterans and civilians with the same problems our Vietnam veterans and Vietnamese civilians are having. We all know this now because the flame burning and illuminating the problems is growing bigger and brighter.

The apathy by the Canadian government and the United States government is something we cannot and should not ignore. Both governments are directly responsible for the use of Agent Orange and other chemicals. They both did not adequately do their homework and charged ahead without thinking. And the result is that those who were exposed are the ones who are and will pay the price. But the government should stand up to be counted and not only tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth, but compensate those who were exposed. They should not have to pay their own medical bills and the families of those who die the funeral expenses.

There are some things here we need to get to the bottom of now! We need to know exactly what chemicals they did use in Vietnam, the potency, the ingredients, and where and when they dropped them. And they need to tell the truth so that those who were in those areas who were exposed to the chemicals can be given appropriate and proper medical treatment at the expense of the government who sent them there in the first place.

I am concerned about one other MAJOR aspect to the matter of Agent Orange and other chemicals we used in Vietnam: what did they do with the chemicals they did not use? If they buried them, where did they bury them? If they destroyed them, how and where did they destroy them? These questions need to be answered but these questions also lead to some more questions we need answered: If we used chemicals like this in Vietnam, did we also use these same chemicals in Korea? And if we used chemicals in Korea, did we also use any chemicals in Iraq? Did our enemies in Iraq use any chemicals?

The TRUTH on all of this needs to be brought out now and I urge all veterans who are reading this who served in Vietnam to contact me and let me know your thoughts. You may not be sick and you may be healthy, but believe me, some of these chemicals can lie dormant for a long time before they act on certain individuals. You never know when they will suddenly become active or when something will trigger them to activate. So be honest, and stand up to be counted. Also, it just might save your life. I held a SECRET clearance and I learned some very interesting things about chemicals and other matters in two branches of the military. Listen to what I am saying because, while Agent Orange is bad, there are some that are much worse and I pray to God we never used them.

Agent Orange, and purple, and white and whatever other chemical was used in Vietnam is a silent killer than can stalk those who served in Vietnam. Vietnam Veterans, you need to stand up and be counted and we all need to band together to make sure the truth of this is brought out.

One other note: When the Canadian government tested Agent Orange and probably other chemicals, what did they do with what was left over?

The cloud hanging over America and Canada is becoming more transparent and one day the contents of those clouds will become visible. But that will only happen when two governments who claim to be concerned and say they are doing all they can stop being so apathetic and quit sweeping things under the rug. They both know the whole truth and beyond and they have to learn to quit taking protective measure to hide things in order to protect themselves. They need to step up to the mike and tell the truth.

We are the people and we vote for those in power. We can make some changes by voting for people who will do what is right and carry out their duties with integrity. But we can also make sure our candidates make promises that they can carry out and promises based on truth, integrity and common sense.

Agent Orange was used! It created major HEALTH problems for those exposed to it. Let us all pray that the TRUTH prevails and that our elected representatives one day will stand up to be counted and DEMAND that the TRUTH be made public and corrective action taken to compensate those who have been imprisoned in the ring of injustice. 


Content copyright © 2001-2005 by Gary King. All rights reserved.
This content was written by Gary King. If you wish to use this content in any manner, you need written permission. Contact Gary King for details.


----------



## PKR_Chequer

This was in the local rag a few days ago...


Tue 05 Jul 2005

Owen Sound Sun Times

Defence ministry taking Agent Orange claims at Meaford base seriously, says MP

by Bill Henry

MEAFORD - Defence department officials are "taking very seriously"
concerns raised last week about the possibility barrels of Agent
Orange were buried near Meaford in 1969.

Defence Minister Bill Graham's staff called Bruce-Grey-Owen Sound MP
Larry Miller Monday morning promising to investigate the claim.

Miller raised the issue last week after a former air force heavy
equipment operator sent him a sworn affidavit detailing how he and
three civilians buried four large drums of the deadly defoliant
linked to cancer.

John Williamson said the barrels are buried on second hipp, a high
point of land at the Meaford Tank Range, now called Land Forces
Central Area Training Facility.

The former member of the Royal Canadian Air Force, now 83, said he
kept quiet as ordered about the hidden chemical until last week. He
went public with the information through Miller because of related
media coverage of the Agent Orange controversy surrounding tests at a
New Brunswick military base in the 1960s, Williamson wrote in the
affidavit.

Miller asked immediately for a full investigation of the claim and
said he plans to call Graham's office weekly to keep informed about
the progress.

"His staff said they will be looking into it and they take the
allegation very seriously," the MP said Monday. "I hope they won't
wait too long."

Williamson also claims contact with the chemical led to cancer which
killed his wife and has kept him and his daughter in treatment for
years.

Officials at Meaford base have said there is no record of any Agent
Orange in use or storage at the base. Army public affairs spokesman
Maj. Chris Lemay said late Monday in Ottawa the military has a
toll-free line mostly to study what happened 50 years ago at Gagetown
in New Brunswick. He said anyone with information should call
1-866-558-2945.

Lemay also said he's unaware of any other allegations of Agent Orange
at the tank range near Meaford and could not yet say how or how soon
officials will investigate Williamson's claim that Agent Orange is
buried at the base.

"First and foremost, we welcome all information about what happened
50 years ago," Lemay said. "We want to hear from everyone with
factual information about any aspect of Agent Orange . . . we will
welcome all leads."


----------



## MikeM

Where is Second Hip?

I've never heard that term used to describe a location before.


----------



## Doreen

I was in CFB Gagetown from 1971 until 1974.  Two years ago I was diagnosed with Chronic Lymphocytic Leukemia.  The type I have is a very rare T Cell form.  No family history.  No knowledge of where it came from.  I was there during the spraying and it was after I left NB that I started having different symptoms that were never experienced before.  Allergies, reactions to ordinary drugs, unusual white cell counts as early as 1981 and at the ripe old age of 60 (on my birthday in fact) the diagnosis was made after many many blood tests.  Very rare indeed.  I am now persuing the idea that perhaps, just perhaps, this was where the very origins of my leukemia came from.


----------



## Doreen

I seem to be experiencing a problem posting but I will try again.  Here goes.  I was in CFB Gagetown between 1971 and 1974.  After leaving NB I developed allergies to almost everything.  Allergies to ordinary drugs even.  In 1981 I was diagnosed with an unusual white cell count.  However, it wasn't pursued at the time.  Two years ago after many many tests I was diagnosed with Chronic Lymphocytic Leukemia of the very rare T Cell variety.  I believe this leukemia could be a direct result of my time spent at CFB Gagetown.  I have no family history of this disease or any other probable cause for having it.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

There is a new online petition to the Prime Minister regarding the sprayings at CFB Gagetown.

Please take a look and consider signing it Thanks 

Sandy (MIKsam)

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/aoalert/


----------



## Mack

Hello Folks,

I've been reading along and have been reserving comment until I gathered as many facts and watched what developed further. I'm impressed Ken and Art with research and unselfish efforts. I'm sorry for your desperate situations. I'd also like to express my condolences for the Skipton family. I used to go to school with Sue at West Kings.

What I'll cover in this post is my experiences with CFB Gagetown, the Canadian forces medical system, and Canada's Veteran Affairs. I'll outline how my health deteriorated over the years and how these 3 entities have abandoned me outright although I served them well.

It was just after high school when I arrived at CFB Gagetown in March of 1980 as an RCR. I spent the next 6.5 years in the swamps of Gagetown training area until Jul 1986. I was a very healthy 19 year old who had been athletic all my life so far, and was about to become even much more athletic. Until 2000, in a typical week I cycled 100km's, did a couple trail hikes, rollerbladed to and from work, golfed 3-4 rounds, privately flew an airplane. All this on top of PT parade â Å“when there was oneâ ?. I looked after myself because I took my responsibilities to my uniform seriously. Those were the days when being out of shape and obese would get you a discharge. I'm not saying this was just. It was just the way it was.

Today I sit all day in a lazy boy chair trying not to aggravate the multitude of symptoms and illness' plaguing me today. 2 summers ago I had been diagnosed with neuroendocrine cancer located on the uncinate process of my pancreas. There is no known cause so it can't be blamed on cigarette smoking as the VA suggests, even though literature clearly shows there is no known cause for this cancer. This type of cancer is very rare and only 2500 case are discovered in the US each year. I've also been diagnosed with some emotional/mental illness such as depression and a stress disorder. The cancer is malignant and I follow up with ct scans each 6 months. I had been carrying the tumors for years according to the surgeon. The tumors were hormone producing, sending my hormonal system into chaos. 

The surgery for the tumors on my pancreas was while I was still serving but had remusted to the airforce â Å“2003â ?. It was bungled in that a bleeder clip was left behind and possibly more FOD. After loosing 30 lbs in 6 days, and 10 days after the surgery, I had a pulmonary embolism that landed me back at the hospital.. While there a very large life threatening cyst was discovered on my liver. It was drained and I continue to have trouble with my liver function being low. By the very uncomfortable feeling in my right side I'd say the liver is enlarged/bloated. The surgeon explained it as â Å“something picked up off the table. I bleed rectally now which never was before. I digest very poorly and have much nausea often.

About 98-99 I began to develop neuropathy in my finger tips. About the same time I was diagnosed with very early arthritis in my knees. The rest of my joints particularly my feet, hands, back, and hips have followed suit in the last couple years.

As soon as I hit Gagetown I began to have migraine headaches very badly and very often. They were poorly controlled with heavy meds. I had terrible abdominal issues such as  chronic diarrhea,  cramps, and acid reflux. Around 82/83 I had a spell of night sweats that followed with chronicly aching bones and joints. I  had acne while I served in Gagetown and my testicals ached and were sensitive to touch. 

Make no mistake, as bad as I felt all these years. I pulled my weight and finished every exercise I ever started. I never ever once fell by the wayside. I point this out to demonstrate I was not hypochondriac nor a malingerer. I made infantry section commander in 2 years back in 82, and just to finish an Infantry Section Commaders course back then was a feat. 48 of us started the first day, and only 13 graduated. I point these things out to show again, I was no slouch. I enjoyed my career and was happy to serve without question in those days.

I was released from the CF against my will Feb 04. The Surgeon and CF medical system knew full well the surgery had been bungled and I would require further treatment. Not much of a case of continued care, as promised by CF orders. I had no family doctor lined up and so was told by Ottawa to use outpatients when I called to complain of a lack of continuity in my care. How in the world could an emergency room doctor know my full history to consider proper diagnosis? Everybody knows that if you're lucky you'll get 15 minutes with a doctor. The CF medical system was under pressure from CF leadership to reduce the SPHL list. I receive no assistance and just a bureaucratic nightmare facing Blue Cross insurance adjusters representing the VA.

Why wouldn't the CF medical system try at all to explain my cancer or do any sort of investigation into possible chemical poisoning? I finished my career as an aviation tech and was sometimes chronically exposed to many chemicals. Known to be dangerous chemicals, but no investigation at all. They knew I was a soldier in Gagetown. No continued medical care, no VA support, and no family doctor. I was able to find a doctor on my own who would prove to be completely inadequate for such a complicated case. 18 months I spent with this doctor. I visited her about 6 times. She never once physically examined me.

I've been made to feel that I am just searching for a pension, all along the way. This is insane to think that I'd serve as well as I did for such a large and insured company just to be thrown out like a used up battery. The VA has never given me the benefit of the doubt, they'd just prefer the cancer gets me and they'd have less to pay my family who probably wouldn't even pursue them for a claim. They know, and it's a game of attrition. There hasn't been much response because there's no one hardly left.

The dilemma in gaining any sort of accountability is entirely about avoiding fiscal responsibility such as class action suits and pensions to veterans. The VA is privatized for the most part and is just an insurance company more fitting of an era of privatization of government services. 

I don't believe for a minute anyone will come clean on this and tell the whole truth resulting in proper investigation and possible proper compensation if entitled. I'm sure veterans will have to jump through hoops to get help, as it's always been, and civilians will get lost in a long drawn out affair of denial and lying by chemical company reps and our government who is primarily concerned with protecting shareholders and big business. 

Our government shows it's distaste for the men and women of our CF flagrantly when it appropriates billions of dollars saved up by generations of serviceman and women in their pension fund â Å“bill C78â ?. Crooks!! The new Ombudsman appointment of Mr. Cote will prove to have a negative effect on the office and it's mandate. The VA has supposedly been revamped, but I'd say that they just made the criteria more difficult and discriminatory. Wow!!, and this is the year of the veteran.

I haven't got the whole picture yet, but, It's clear the VA is not at all a â Å“new and improvedâ ? version of the past. Soldiers are having to make their own investigation while medical professionals remain silent and complicit. Soldiers are being segregated according to their service, whether actual wartime xp or UN duty or peacetime service. Such categories are discriminatory and should be immediately discarded as policy. I have seen much sacrifice by career peacetime soldiers. I've seen men injured during live fire excercises. I've seen them die in MVAs during convoys. I've lost a pile of friends along the way because the work is dangerous and full of hazard whether the country is at peace or war. I can't count on one hand the close calls I've had that don't at all represent the typical dangers a civilian would face. We all agreed to serve and die if called upon. The commitment was no less amongst those that didn't get to carry out their mission overseas. The sacrifices in our personal lives and within our family lives was no less for a career peacetime solder than one who went to Bosnia, for example. It's just not the individual's choice how he will serve in these regards. I feel Cold War soldiers deserve no less consideration by the VA when it comes to a claim for disability.

I just can't imagine why I'd be treated so differently than the generations of my family that have served before me. I've seen how they were treated by the VA and I can tell you the criteria has changed and has become a mine field of hurdles to gain compensation for injuries due to service during anything but wartime. The benefit of the doubt has gone by the wayside.

If there are any airman out there who are familiar with a red alert in Baden, and remember having to go underground into what we called the â Å“subsâ ? for NBC protection. Try to ask yourself when you went in the sub did anyone really know whether it was real or just an exercise. I didn't. Who knew whether when you came out of the sub if your family would still be there or would there be a nuclear wasteland to come up too. How is this â Å“Cold Warâ ? service different and less valid than patrolling Bosnia?

How is it that a soldier who is accidently blown up in the Ghan and a soldier who bites it on a peacetime mission such as a live fire, or a Gagetown career soldier exposed to herbacides are deserving of such segregation from our VA?

So, in conclusion; I served honorably and with distinction, both in peacetime and also as a UN peacekeeper in Cyprus. I fell ill gradually over the years for reasons unknown and the professionals responsible have never lived up to their obligations to me. I was released without any investigation into my illness', without any continuing care, without a family doctor, and no VA support whatsoever. I was also forced from my PMQ after release while I was still very sick.

What I have received was negative attitude towards my type of service, claw backs on my pensions, and bleak future for a lack of medical treatment and support from the VA. I'll always be a little less proud of my service for this sort of flagrant disregard for my contribution and wellbeing. I have a letter that was written to my parents by the Cornwallis Base Commander when I signed up; It was a letter to reassure my parents that I would be cared for as far as my health and wellbeing. All our parents received such a letter in those days. It was a promise never kept, and has turned out to be nothing but a lie.

PS. I'm only 44 years old. The average age for my cancer is 55-65 years.

Pro Patria
Marc


----------



## Joe Blow

Mack, that is a remarkable story by itself, and especially for an applicant to hear.  My condolances to yourself and your family for the treatment you have received.  ..and my compliments on your evident continued loyalty sir.

We need a study that looks at the rates and types of disease in populations that have passed through Gagetown and the wider Canadian (or perhaps Atlantic / New England) population.

If a corelation between service in that area and disease were shown, in conjunction with American research showing a direct cause and effect relationship between some of the herbicides used and various maledies, that should be enough to:

first - grant appropriate compensation and recognition to those affected, and
secondly - provide reason for relocating training grounds.

..I have a family to think about.


----------



## Doreen

It appears there was a direct link between Agent Orange and the Brigadier Generals Chronic Lymphocytic Leukemia.  He received compensation.  A life is a life.  Time the government did something about all these cancers.  Too many rarities here to be coincidence.  Many of us don't have much time left to wait.


----------



## Mack

Thanks Joe,

With all my heart Joe....Please don't do it. Stay at home with your family and don't be at all swayed by the recruitment posters. The CF command is spoiled and out of touch with anything but thier own selfish pusuits, and it's getting worse. Over the past several years I have been watching many good and loyal senior NCMs jumping ship because the climate within is intolerable.

If you have a chance at a commision, then I'd say go for it. Otherwise be prepared to be used, abused and then neglected.

I have to point out that I never seen a commision rank above Lt in the trenches with me and my men.

I'll be brave enough and dare to ask the Q....Why would a general be the first VA case in this matter to be aproved?

Marc

Marc


----------



## Mack

Damn my spelling, sorry.

Marc


----------



## Fry

I've applied for a NCM position. 





			
				Mack said:
			
		

> Thanks Joe,
> 
> With all my heart Joe....Please don't do it. Stay at home with your family and don't be at all swayed by the recruitment posters. The CF command is spoiled and out of touch with anything but thier own selfish pusuits, and it's getting worse. Over the past several years I have been watching many good and loyal senior NCMs jumping ship because the climate within is intolerable.
> 
> If you have a chance at a commision, then I'd say go for it. Otherwise be prepared to be used, abused and then neglected.
> 
> I have to point out that I never seen a commision rank above Lt in the trenches with me and my men.
> 
> I'll be brave enough and dare to ask the Q....Why would a general be the first VA case in this matter to be aproved?
> 
> Marc
> 
> Marc



I do not think in the very least the CF command is spoiled and in it for their own selfish pursuits. You're saying I'm going to be used, abused, and then neglected? Those are strong words to use. I think your post will anger many.


----------



## Hero

Merchant Law Group Class Action

I am not disputing that things are wrong here and that litigation is unwarranted because I do believe that it is. I question the choice of using Merchant Law Group to represent anyone for a number of reasons.

There has been hundreds of millions of dollars paid out to the lawyers representing the victims of the residential schools where people suffered sexual abuse and more. Thus far the lawyers have received 95% of these funds and the victims perhaps 5%. Merchant Law Group has the majority of claims (victims) against the Government of Canada in this situation. There are questions being raised on where is the money, and why have the victims not been compensated when the lawyers are getting rich.

Doing searches on the internet will yield some things that make you think twice about Merchant Law Group. One particular website is well documented with undisputable facts including court documents. 

www.law.avva.ca

I wish everyone the best and hope that this injustice is resolved in favour of the victims and not the other way around.


----------



## Joe Blow

Fry - 

Maybe the gentleman's position is worth considering ..coming as it does from someone with almost as many years in the CF as you've had in life.


----------



## Strike

> With all my heart Joe....Please don't do it. Stay at home with your family and don't be at all swayed by the recruitment posters. The CF command is spoiled and out of touch with anything but thier own selfish pusuits, and it's getting worse. Over the past several years I have been watching many good and loyal senior NCMs jumping ship because the climate within is intolerable.



And discouraging people to join is the best way to keep the system from changing.  Could go on but that is not the point of this thread.  I suggest you look into the threads about Parrish and the CDS to see how wrong that statement is.

Anyhoo, it's not the military leadership within the CF that is to blame wrt the present thread topic, but IMHO, the politicos that run DND; the ones who were never in the military and think of CYA before sticking their neck out.


----------



## Mack

You'll do well with General Hillier. Thank goodness he's Army. Most of my bad XP was with the AF. Good luck to you all. Be safe and come home to your families in one piece.


----------



## Fry

Joe Blow said:
			
		

> Fry -
> 
> Maybe the gentleman's position is worth considering ..coming as it does from someone with almost as many years in the CF as you've had in life.



Prehaps his position isn't worth considering, and prehaps a comment like that isn't worth considering either. 

Trying to convince someone not to join the army as a NCM on an ARMY messageboard isn't good. He disgraced both NCM's and CM's.



> With all my heart Joe....Please don't do it. Stay at home with your family and don't be at all swayed by the recruitment posters. The CF command is spoiled and out of touch with anything but thier own selfish pusuits, and it's getting worse. Over the past several years I have been watching many good and loyal senior NCMs jumping ship because the climate within is intolerable.
> 
> If you have a chance at a commision, then I'd say go for it. Otherwise be prepared to be used, abused and then neglected.
> 
> I have to point out that I never seen a commision rank above Lt in the trenches with me and my men.



I just think that's rather disturbing.


----------



## Joe Blow

I'm not engaging in a pi$$ing contest with you Fry, so this is my last note on the matter:



> Trying to convince someone not to join the army as a NCM on an ARMY messageboard isn't good. He disgraced both NCM's and CM's.


If you read the conduct guidelines when you registered you will be aware that this is not an army (DND) website.  Although it is made clear that the comments here are generally reflective of the CF image and that we should be mindful of that, it is also made clear that these cautions are meant to apply most specifically to respect among users and the use of profanity.

My experience here is that it is a great place for frank discussion of affairs ..discussions that often include colourful complaints about deficiencies in this or that area.  In fact this too is addressed in the conduct guidelines.



> ..That's not to say we can't bemoan the current state of affairs - it's a soldier's age old right to complain. But let's keep it clean and dignified.





> Trying to convince someone not to join the army as a NCM on an ARMY messageboard isn't good. He disgraced both NCM's and CM's.


While I think that your dislike for comments that disparage the CF (even to the point of advising someone not to join) is based on a well placed pride, I don't think we should let that pride blind us from comments about the CF that we would rather not hear.

Again, the fellow has 18 yrs experience in the CF if he has something to say about it, or some advice to give, we should listen.  If what he has to say bothers you, consult others to get a broader perspective.

Anyway, as I say, this is my last note on the matter.  I apologize for the distraction and invite everyone to continue with this valuable discussion.

PS: 


> I have to point out that I never seen a commision rank above Lt in the trenches with me and my men.
> ~
> I just think that's rather disturbing.



Yeah.  That does seem strange.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

I am still waiting for information to update the original post of the topic... but give me a moment to preach.. don't read on because I am venting...  :



hmmmm.. I just sat and added up the years of loyal service, both to land and air elements, that was given by my immediate family  169 years of DEDICATED LOYAL service.  Most of this time was given during a time when silence was needed, like 'loose lips sink ships'

I have lived thru WWII, the 'Morocan Uprising' when they fought in France for independence, the 'Cold War', the 'Cuban Crisis'.

WWII - rations, service members families going hungry in Canada, wives trying desperately to care for their families without support. Those wives gathered together and made it through. WITH PRIDE. Husbands and Dads returned to be nurtured by families, back to health. That is history.

The Morocan Uprising - the families, that accompanied members when NATO went into Europe after the war, were shot at and abused. Kids, wives and members all went through this WITH PRIDE (both Military Pride and Canadian Pride). That is history.

The Cold War - Around the world Military families supported members by living with sirens controlling their lives. With Husbands and Dads running off during dinner (at any time during a day or night) while the family went to temperary bomb shelters in their basements. We did this with PRIDE. That is history. 

The Cuban Crisis - while we sat nervously awaiting news about our loved Military Members as they served to protect us and their country by always being ready, by flying around Russian ships that transported missles/bombs along our Atlantic borders to Cuba. Ships and Aircraft crews AND FAMILIES did this with PRIDE. That is history.

4 examples that many of us can tell stories about, NOW we can tell stories, but at the time we also knew that 'loose lips sink ships' BUT and that BUT is big. These men did not expect our government to turn their backs and outright lie about happenings on Canadian soil that would eventually take their lives. I have said often that the main problem about this AgentOrange and other sprayings of ANY defoliant is not the tragedy. The tragedy IS THE LIES. Our Military Members all serve with PRIDE and they expect Canada (civilian, military and government) to support this service with RESPECT. Times have changed and we can now talk and discuss and GET ANGRY when we see injustice. We can speak out and ask for change so that future Service Members can get the respect they need to do their tasks without being concerned about dying DUE TO LIES... If you think we should stay quiet, your very very wrong. 

If you think we can stand up and respect these Members and the others that were and will be damaged, because OUR GOVERNMENT is still continuing on the same path of ,lying for damage control, STAND WITH US. Let us be angry. We feel we must speak out and protect the future soldiers, airmen and sailors that should not have to go through the same kind of torturous death without the RESPECT they deserve and have earned. Our loved ones have died and are still dying and our children have afflictions they should never have had to grow up with. A lot of the suffering could have been taken with the same PRIDE of service, if our government had just RESPECTED these families and Canadians in general by letting us all know the reasons by sharing information openly. We have asked ourselves the question 'WHY' for to long. WHY am I sick? WHY is my child sick? WHAT can I do? HOW can I help my child? I am dying, WHY? WHO will help my family when I  am gone?  My husband asked all these questions and he got no answer. I miss him laughing with me as I try to figure out how to replace a bent stud on the wheel of my car. I miss him laughing with me cause the lawn mower simply will not start for me. I miss him when I go for a drive and have to be sure I am going to find the right road to my destination. I simply MISS him, and I could have had him with me longer IF. So please don't critize when we (those marked by the AO LIES) get angry. Instead STAND WITH US and help us to make change for the future. STAND WITH US as we ask for the RESPECT for all Canadians that have lived with this for so many years.

"STAND WITH US" means educate yourself, speak out if you feel an injustice was/is done. Help us to protect future Canadians by asking our government to be honest because that is all we are asking. We want the government to give every Canadian the same respect they expect us to give them.  btw.. the military offices are not being very helpful either.   www.agentorangealert.com is a good website to start at if you want to become educated about this topic.


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## Robert

Well , here i am... i would never have known about what was going on at CFB Gagetown.
I now live in Alberta and just happened to read the Edmonton Sun (newspaper).
For many years i just didn't understand what was going on with my family.
Or myself for that matter. My uncle Emile died 3 1/2 years ago.. cancer of the liver.
My mother died 2 years ago in July. Cancer
my cousin Paul died 6 months later...cancer of the liver
My aunt Alicia died 2 months later ..... cancer of the liver
We all lived in Burton, which is next to the firing range. 
I think from reading all the letters on this site , i think all of them are right.
Something was going on out there , and yes i also used to play close to the base and the training area.
Back then it was happy times , living in the country and me and Paul (Paul was 6 months older than me) and we never thought for 1 second anything about agent orange or agent white or that have you.. and if it was ever printed in the paper i know my grandmother would have told us not to go anywhere near .I lived in Burton till me and Paul went west when we were 17. He returned home a few years ago and later died.I'm still here in Alberta with the same thing that had killed him.. Just waiting for my time.
I have been tested and i have a liver disorder.. same as Paul.
I have a hard time believing that this is just something that just happened to just my family..  but by the letters... it is happened over and over to a lot of people.all from the same area...
Thanks Robert


----------



## Doreen

Sorry to hear about you and your family Robert.  Seems there's a whole generation of us already dead or dying of Cancer and nobody really seems to care except the people directly involved.  I have no doubt the Chronic Lymphocytic Leukemia will get me before the government does anything.  Good luck to you and your family.


----------



## Robert

I was just thinking , i come from a large family.
And the only ones that don't have health problems are the ones that was away from home after 1963.
One uncle that lives here in Alberta, an aunt that was living in Garmany and my sister that was living in Fredricton... Out of evey one that lived in Burton (in my family)only 3 of us are alive... my grandmother had 8 kids , and all but 3 are dead now.I would like to hear from other families in the burton area and see if its the same case or not.. 
Well i know nothing much will come out of this , as like everyone says about the goverment.. they will drag there feet.. and i might be gone by then but i hope that some day for my kids peace of mind that they will know what realy happened.. I know i would love to know if this is why (the testing in cfb gagetown) is the reason for all the deaths and sickness.. I will hope to know ...
I hope everyone keeps up the fight . As this should not be treated like area 51 .. 
Thanks again : Robert


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## Mack

Hi Robert,

Very sorry for your plight and that of your family. I want to pass this link on to you........

http://www.agentorangealert.com/pages/1/index.htm

I didn't see your name on the petition, so am assuming you may not know about it. There is some hope Robert; the tender for bids on the contract to do the testing has been posted. A plan/statement is expected next week from the federal gvmnt. Jody Carr is hammering away at the feds, and getting attn. The board has been formed, and Col Jestin has been very helpful in heading up info gathering meetings. There is also Art and Ken working very hard, and they'll be the last people in the world to let go.

I would like to see you cut and paste your posts to the forum in the link above. Check there for more current news. Sign the petition and pass it along to all in your address book. Do you know about the class action suit? If you are worried about your legacy to your children, maybe it would give you some comfort. I see it as a tool to force the truth to the surface.


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## BITTER PPLCI CPL

Up to how long ago would this chemical be present in Gagetown and would it still be effective?


----------



## Mack

The question will be answered accurately and completely when the environmental testing report is in. According to published info, Dioxin could surely be in the environment. It has a half life of 9 years. There are other chemicals of concern such as Hexachlorobenzene. Some links below....


http://www.epa.gov/opptintr/pbt/hexa.htm

http://www.epa.gov/safewater/contaminants/dw_contamfs/hexachlo.html

http://www.ejnet.org/dioxin/

http://oaspub.epa.gov/webi/meta_first_new2.try_these_first


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## Sandy Skipton

I have no update on my husband's autopsy. We wait and wait and wait.  Once again the government causes frustrations from those that are involved,, as is shown by the following post taken from www.agentorangealert.com

August 12, 2005

There is still nothing from the committee studying the spraying at CFB Gagetown. On Wednesday August 3, 2005, we were told by CBC.ca that "An aid to Fredericton MP Andy Scott said on Wednesday that the government will be announcing it's action plan on Agent Orange next week. Andrew Holland said the government will deal with community outreach issues and the environmental testing among other things. 

Holland said it's taking so long because it was difficult to co-ordinate all the departments involved, and get everything passed by the treasury department."

The following day on August 4, 2005 the CBC.ca reported that MP Andy Scott said that an announcement regarding Agent Orange would come soon. Scott wasn't specific about when the announcement would come, but said it would be very soon.

Also on August 4, 2005 The Edmonton Sun reported the following "Steve Jurgutis, spokesman for Defence Minister Bill Graham, said a "plan to move forward" will be released in coming weeks. 

The committee needs to inform the public of its progress. Everyone is being left in the dark. It is necessary for the committee to keep us informed. It needs to tell us what, if anything it has accomplished thus far. The public understand that it is not an overnight process but to give us a time frame and then change it and feed us terms like "NEXT WEEK", "SOON" "VERY SOON" and "IN COMING WEEKS" is unacceptable. I will repeat .."UNACCEPTABLE". Time for the committee to become transparent. As I have said from Day One.... Do the right thing.


Now while we wait for "next week",  "soon", "very soon" and of course "the coming weeks" to appear whatever shall we do? Hmmmmmm.... I know! Perhaps we could try to find out where in the PMQ's the 4 contaminated sites are (or were) containing PAH's (polycyclic aromatic compounds) which have been shown to cause skin cancer, while inhaling the substances can cause cancer to other parts of the body. 

-Art


----------



## Doreen

I would dearly love to read more about the 4 contaminated sites.  Can you help.  They actually demolished the pmq that I lived in.  Would be interesting to know why.  Thanks for your help.  I will be getting tested for toxidity levels soon.  I spoke to my leukemia specialist and my rare form of Chronic Lymphocytic Leukemia has him very interested to test me for toxicity.


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## Sandy Skipton

to see the contamination report you can go to www.agentorangealert.com  click on forum and go down the page til you find Aug 4 date... the report is long and it seems they are not pointing to specific PMQ's .. just reporting that there are contaminated areas.. maybe so no one panics or could it be that they want everyone to panic... sorry just a strange thought, panic is not the way to go about any of this. Educating ourselves about this problem and speaking up is a much better way to find results. 

While you are at the agentorangealert website, please click on petition as well because that is one way to speak up. Check out the agentorangealert site, it is a site that was developed just so we can exchange information and stay up to date.


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## Strike

> They actually demolished the pmq that I lived in.  Would be interesting to know why.



Given the state that some of the PMQs were allowed to deteriorate to, and shrinking budgets, I'm sure it had nothing to do with Agent Orange.


----------



## aesop081

Strike said:
			
		

> Given the state that some of the PMQs were allowed to deteriorate to, and shrinking budgets, I'm sure it had nothing to do with Agent Orange.



They demolished over 300 the first year i was posted there as they were "beyond economical repair".  The following year, the demolished more.  Why is it all of a sudden, everything needs to be blamed on agent orange ?


----------



## Strike

aesop,

Dude, I feel your pain.  But people are scared of what they don't understand, and unfortunately, the agencies involved are doing little to alleviate their fears at the moment.


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## Doreen

Given the state that some of the PMQs were allowed to deteriorate to, and shrinking budgets, I'm sure it had nothing to do with Agent Orange.

I wish I could be just as sure that my Chronic Lymphocytic Leukemia (the identical very rare form as Brigadier General G. Sellar's) had nothing to do with Agent Orange.  

Guess I will know when the Haematologist does my toxidity levels.  I just know two kids and two grandkids are going to lose their mother and grandmother far before her time.  (that being me of course).


----------



## aesop081

Doreen said:
			
		

> Given the state that some of the PMQs were allowed to deteriorate to, and shrinking budgets, I'm sure it had nothing to do with Agent Orange.
> 
> I wish I could be just as sure that my Chronic Lymphocytic Leukemia (the identical very rare form as Brigadier General G. Sellar's) had nothing to do with Agent Orange.
> 
> Guess I will know when the Haematologist does my toxidity levels.   I just know two kids and two grandkids are going to lose their mother and grandmother far before her time.   (that being me of course).



Doreen,

I feel terrible about your condition and sympathize with your concerns for yourself and your family.  I was in no way trying to take away from your situation.  There is unfortunately nothing that i can do to aleviate that, although i wish i could.

When you said that the demolished your old PMQ  and stated " would be interesting to know why", IMHO, your were implying that it somehow had to do with agent orange.  Maybe i am wrong.  But that is the kind of attitude that leads to more trouble for everyone.  Alot of PMQs were demolished, not only in gagetown but on almost every base in the CF.  Not everything has to be related to agent orange.  Alot of people involved in this whole thing have jumped to conclusions, fed by both fear and anger, and this will help no one.


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## Mack

Peanut butter tech,

Besides your personal, insensitive, factless view of the situation, whats been your contribution to the situation? Is it to just toe the line and try to belch out to us the gossip circulated by the local coffee club? 

If you were affected then maybe you'd understand the fear; and again, if you were affected then maybe you'd understand that being lied to and misled since 1981 why a person would be angry.

Challenge me with some facts Aesop, and leave your unfounded feelings where they belong. 

Let a very ill Lady spill her guts without you feeling like you have to have the last word.

Suck back and reload airman. There has been plenty of evidence provided here that should substantiate a little fear and anger. Do some reading before you tell folks they are just paranoid and fearfull. The anger is easy to understand as long as folks like you take the podium.


----------



## aesop081

Mack said:
			
		

> If you were affected then maybe you'd understand the fear; and again, if you were affected then maybe you'd understand that being lied to and misled since 1981 why a person would be angry.



My father served in the CF from 1964 onwards.  Both of us have roamed the training areas of CFB Gagetown for most of our adult lives.  I may not be sick but that may just be a matter of time.  My father however has suffered recuring bouts with cancer.  He has been following the case of AO with interest but he recognises that there are other causes for his illness and therefore he will wait for concrete evidence before passing judgement.  I have been in gagetown for training many times, was posted there for 3 years.  My kids spent part of their young lives there.  I may not be affected to the same extent as you, nowhere near actualy, but i am not without cause for concern.  So i refuse your argument that i am nt affected.

Yes there is mounting evidence of what you and others claim, i am not disputing that.  I agree with you that the goverment has done much to instill a climate of fear and anger.  I am not toeing the party line, if i were maybe my career might have gone further.


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## Mack

Aesop,

I feel terrible for jumping on you like that. Please accept my apology.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Some more "things" coming back to haunt?

http://chealth.canoe.ca/health_news_details.asp?news_id=15474&news_channel_id=0
Contractors find potential toxins at military site 
Aug. 25, 2005

GREENWOOD, N.S. (CP) -- A defence contractor has recommended the military further investigate several dump sites a former soldier claims contained so many toxins he became sick with cancer. 

A final report by MGI Ltd. suggests more work be done in "three areas of interest" where sub-surface metal anomalies were identified following an excavation of an area of Nova Scotia's Camp Aldershot. 
"They found pieces of metal that were somewhere between the surface and two metres down," Capt. John Pulchny said Thursday at CFB Greenwood. "The next step will be to determine what that metal is." 

Pulchny said the military is considering the recommendations from the Fredericton-based company and will decide in the coming months how best to determine what's in the ground. 
That could include digging further test pits and drilling wells to take more samples, work the military hopes to complete by Christmas. 

The area was also used as a landfill, so Pulchny said the metal objects that were detected could be non-toxic. 
The investigation began following allegations by a retired soldier that he was ordered to bury barrels of a thick, toxic sludge he says caused several ailments including cancer. 

Bill Coleman, a former army private, said that he and others were ordered in 1961 to bury drums of toxic chemicals they had dredged from the bottom of Peach Lake inside an artillery range at Camp Aldershot. 
Coleman, 69, said he and his colleagues hauled up the barrels in the lake, causing an oily material to rise to the surface. On the third day, he noticed dead frogs and turtles in the lake, and a persistent burning in his eyes and face. 

The military also recently tested samples of the lake water, but found only slightly increased levels of mercury. It plans further testing of the lake. 
Coleman, who has lost many of his friends to cancer, said they recovered pieces of barrels and hauled them to an area to dispose of them. They then were ordered to hose down their truck and were given a change of clothes to replace the boots, gloves and oilskin clothing they had to wear. 

Coleman said that six months after dredging the lake, he and some of his co-workers began to feel ill, lacked energy, and he developed sores on his head and hands. 
Coleman, who has suffered from bowel, prostate and skin cancer, went to the training camp with the contractors to point out where he thought the burial site was located. 

Coleman decided to come forward with his claims after consulting doctors and hearing about allegations of toxic exposure at CFB Gagetown in New Brunswick. Several people there have said they were exposed to Agent Orange and other chemicals at the base in the 1960s.


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## medicineman

I've been skimming through this thread, so missed some posts for sure, but all this hue and cry about the US military testing here in Canada during the 60's kind of overshadows the fact the what we know as Agent Orange was actually developed by Connaught Labs in Ottawa in the 30's - it was likely tested/used in Canada long before the war in Vietnam.  Just a bit of food for thought.

MM


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## ArmyRick

Bill Coleman handled these chemicals in the 60s and now in the 2000s has developed cancer? I have a friend of mine who works closely with oncologist and we discussed this issue. He gave me some good points about cancer to think about.  I would look at ALL the toxins Mr Coleman was exposed to in the more recent years of his life.
Cigarette smoke, car fumes, household cleaning products, paints, pesticides, factory waste, etc, etc.

There are ALOT of so called everyday chemicals that can lead to cancer that we are exposed to everyday. Whats worse is they are so called safe to handle products.

Being exposed to some nasty chemicals and than developing cancer 40 years later and beleiving that it was the chemicals you handled 40 + years ago?  Come on the human immune system is much stronger than that. I personally don't buy it.  If those chemicals were the cause, Mr Coleman would probably have died of cancer long time ago.  

Before anybody climbs down my throat about being insensitive, I do sympathize for the victims and their families, I lost a relative very recently to cancer.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

I am pleased to see that your interested enough to discuss the problem of chemicals... and yes, every day we are exposed to many dangerous chemicals... 
I am not sure I would take your friend to seriously since most oncologist are unfamiliar with the dioxins involved with THIS problem.  Oncologist themselves work with some pretty dangerous chemicals when they administer Chemo. I have tried to become educated and have learned that the dioxins talked about when talking about CFB Gagetown, are actually the most damaging... and the 'soups' of chemicals are certainly in question.

It has been said that everyone's body is touched by cancer at some time (true or not, I have no idea) but our immune systems do conteract the damaged cells and the problem can pass without us being aware... Now, think about this, the dioxins cause mutation of the immune system and with these damaged cells the body tries hard to fight off the cancerous cells.. How long can that battle go on with a damaged immune system?  I think no one can really answer that. The dioxins get stored in the body fat, and the person gets older (not knowing that this battle is going on). This person thinks it is time to lose some of the excess weight that has gathered over the years. In losing that weight the dioxins are released back into the system to compromise it again. Well I am no scientist but, seems to me that the body can just suddenly give up the battle... and the cancer gets a free pass to really attack. How long can we have cancer before it is diagnosed?  You and I are not in a field that can understand all this but I do know what our doctors told my husband and that is that he had cancer for at least 10 years before it was caught at least that is what they guessed... could it have been longer?  So being exposed in the 60s, the immune system battling, then the immune system again be attacked by the stored dioxins, could someone develop diagnosable cancer after 25-30 years, then go thru remission to have cancer flare up again, go thru treatment (which can be painful) only to have cancer flare up again?.... hmmmmm... Cancer does not get diagnosed in weeks or months after exposure to chemicals... and cancer is not the only illness that results from dioxin exposure.

Someday even scientist might understand what actually happens to the human body that allows our bodies to be affected by chemicals and develop cancer but it happens and it does happen many years after the exposure... and the mutated reproduction system passes THIS Gagetown problem onto our children and grandchildren, that at least is a fact that has been accepted by scientists. Education about chemicals and knowing what to do IF we are exposed can be an important key. The people in Gagetown were told that such chemicals were not used there and so no one knew what was making them ill. Doctors did not know why they were ill. Now, we are standing up to protect the next generation by asking for a cleanup and honesty in the future so that a person can know when and if they were exposed to a chemical that could cause problems.... 
I hope we can all become better educated by having these open discussions. 

I had to respond because my husband was exposed in the 60s. He retired in early 80s and never worked at another job. He was having medical problems since late 60s but no one could diagnose his problems until he was struck with cancer and diagnosed at age 62. His medical problems were problems that his family history could not explain. No one in his family has ever had cancer.  In January we were told by his oncologist that he was terminal and had 14-20 months to live, he died in May (that is 4 months) so, do oncologist know all?... I have to say no but they sure do try and I respect them for what they do. Our daughter was born in 68 with malformed hip joints, no family history of this type of problem and she was told, at the age of 34, she should have hip replacement so she could walk... hmmmm... I have to end by saying, we all need to learn more and cancer medicine and knowledge is still struggling in unknown waters. What chemicals do to our bodies is a mystery too. Bill Coleman's story might be the same as mine and my husbands.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

by Kenneth Dobbie;  As posted at www.agentorangealert.com 
Some time has gone by since the release of the information concerning the chemical defoliation of CFB Gagetown, I want to add a few facts. 

2,4-D + 2,4,5-T (which the Americans called Agent Orange & Agent Purple) was negligently sprayed on the training area of CFB Gagetown from 1956 to 1964. 

In 1964, there was a spraying accident involving a temperature inversion, which caused the Dioxin-laced spray to drift across the Saint John River to the market gardens of communities from Burton to as far down-river as Jemseg, primarily in the Sheffield to Maugerville area. However, the entire distance covered by the spray was 29 kilometres.

(I know the distance, because I drove the old river road in these communities in June 2005 and I clocked the distance as being 29.3 kilometres) The crops on all these farms were destroyed and the Crown compensated the farmers for the loss of their crops by paying them a total of $250,000 in 1964. 

This was not the first time this had happened.

According to the August 8th, 1964 edition of the Fredericton Daily Gleaner and I quote:

"Meanwhile, Camp Gagetown officials are not too concerned about the situation. One officer said complaints of crop damage were received every year" 

Mr. Baker, project engineer and local head of Defence Construction Limited
(A division of DND) said that: "...Compensation for fair and reasonable crop damage after due investigation has been paid in the past and will be paid in the future" Mr. Baker said. 

This admission shows that there were similar spraying accidents BEFORE 1964.

One has to wonder just how toxic the vegetables were in successive years, because we all know that Dioxin is a persistent and bioaccumulative toxin. Since Dioxin has a half-life of over 10 years in the soil, it makes a person wonder what happened to all the people's health who consumed vegetables grown in these market gardens in the immediate years after 1964. Keep in mind that these market gardens supplied produce to the entire Fredericton area and some of them exported their vegetables to other parts of New Brunswick as well as out of the province. 

These farms grew vast quantities of vegetables. One farmer is reported to have lost 25,000 tomato plants in the summer of 1964

In 1965, for a number of factors, one being the spray accident, secondly because the military were not satisfied with the kill ratio of Agent Orange, they switched to using Tordon 101 for the next twenty (20) years until 1984. 

Tordon 101 is Agent White, which contained 2,4-D, plus Picloram in a 4:1 ratio. The deadly part of this mix was Picloram, which contained Hexachlorobenzene (HCB).

According to the EPA website: www.epa.gov/pbt/hexa.htm

"Because Hexachlorobenzene (HCB) is persistent and bioaccumulative, it stays in our environment for a long time and contaminates our food chain. HCB can cause severe health problems for humans and other wildlife. 
 · Damages bones, kidneys, and blood cells 
 · Can harm the immune system 
 · Lowers the survival rates of young children 
 · Can cause abnormal fetal development 
 · Harms the liver, endocrine, and nervous system 
 · May cause cancer 
Again, to emphasize, this persistent, bioaccumulative toxin (BCT) was sprayed for twenty years from 1965 to 1984. 

Our military and government of the time approved the extensive use of these persistent, bioaccumulative defoliants and even strengthened the mix to achieve a greater kill ratio.

In total, from 1956 to 1984, our governments and DND sprayed over 1.3 million litres of persistent bioaccumulative toxins, Dioxin and Hexachlorobenzene, over an area of 181,000 acres of the CFB Gagetown training area. 

Any person coming in contact with these persistent toxins would have been poisoned. People in the training area were assured that there was no danger to their health, numerous veterans have stated this fact. But the fact is that anyone going into the training area would have been poisoned if they travelled in the spray areas. Since the government sprayed 181,000 acres which is more than one third of the acreage of the training area, it became inevitable that travel, or staying in various parts of the training area exposed and poisoned people. Later in their lives, the poisonous toxins would have already done the damage in the form of all kinds of disorders, diseases and cancers.

So when the government says that the spraying only occurred in 1966 and 1967, remember the facts. They are lying and their lies are only being compounded by their deceit and stupidity in thinking that this is going to go away. 

Mr. Blaney has been given an enormous task to find the truth. 

Let us hope that he does and when he does that he communicates that truth to the government that they were and are responsible for making thousands of people sick, dead or dying. 

However, given the facts that we already know, I personally do not see the need for a fact-finding committee. The facts are already known, thus the only real way to get to the truth of what happened at CFB Gagetown is to call for a public inquiry. 

I urge all Canadians to contact your MP and demand a public inquiry into our government and military who wilfully contaminated an area with deadly toxins that was to be used by personnel both military and civilian. And that toxic contamination resulted in death, disablement and sickness in thousands of people. 

I urge all of you who read this to contact your MP and ask them to demand a public inquiry when Parliament resumes later this month. 

A public inquiry is the way to the truth.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

Yesterday makes it 4months since Mike died... 4 months of waiting for autopsy results... no update as yet
I have spent several years of trying to get answers and our government is still dragging their feet while citizens suffer.
The bottom line of this story is NOT going away and we should all educate ourselves as more information comes to light.


Agent Orange: A Toxic Legacy 
    A Multi-part Series Uncovers New Information, New Victims and Debate 
    Surrounding Public Inquiry

    VANCOUVER, Sept. 21 /CNW/ - Beginning Wednesday this week, Global
National launches a special series searching for justice and accountability
for thousands of Canadians who say they are sick or dying as a result of
secret military spraying of Agent Orange and other toxic defoliants at C.F.B.
Gagetown. An investigative team led by Global National anchor, Kevin Newman,
Jacques Bourbeau in Ottawa and Ross Lord in New Brunswick has uncovered
startling answers to questions the federal government has been dodging for
decades.
    "Agent Orange: A Toxic Legacy" not only reveals Ottawa's fast-shifting
story about how much and what kind of deadly chemicals were used but exposes
new information about where the spraying occurred that could have
repercussions across the entire country.
    Global National has also learned that the federal government was worried
about the harmful effect of spraying herbicides at least two decades ago. Why
wasn't more done to raise the alarm? Others are now raising questions about
the lingering effects that may still pose a danger to both soldiers and
civilians.
    Now, with a growing sense of betrayal among legions of soldiers and
civilians exposed to Agent Orange and other dangerous herbicides, the
government is finally launching an investigation, but there are already angry
accusations of cover-up, bias and indifference. Some fear they will never see
the compensation they say they deserve.
    "This is going to surprise a lot of Canadians," said Kevin Newman, anchor
of Global National. "We want to know that our government has our best
interests at heart and that those who serve our country in the military will
be recognized for their duty. The people we spoke to are angry and frustrated
that they lived with toxic chemicals in their community and that the
government has taken so long to respond to their concerns." In fact, many
victims have banded together and launched a class action lawsuit against the
government.
    Global National with Kevin Newman will broadcast this multi-part series
beginning Wednesday, September 21. Global National with Kevin Newman airs
nightly at 6:30 p.m. in Ontario, Quebec and Alberta. 6:00 p.m. in Manitoba and
Saskatchewan. 5:30 p.m. in British Columbia, and 11:15 p.m. in the Maritimes.



For further information: contact: Karen Williams, Junior Publicist, 
Global Television, a division of CanWest MediaWorks Inc., (416) 446-5530, 
kwilliams@globaltv.ca


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## Sandy Skipton

This thread started in Feb03 as a request for information... It seems no one has any rememberance of the event that we asked for information about. My husband was ill and we needed to prove he had been in Gagetown since we are claiming he was exposed to AgentOrange there. We needed DVA help. 
On May12 05, we received the second reject letter concerning his claim. Rejected because we could not prove he was there and (I quote) "There is no documentation to indicate that you required medical attention as a result of an exposure to AgentOrange"   At this time, May05, the government was still denying the scientific documents after having denied for 40yrs that such chemicals were even being sprayed at Gagetown. We had included copies of documents that AmericanVA had accepted his medical complaint on their list of AO accepted illnesses.
On May15 05, Gloria Sellar released her story, and that of her husband Brigadier-General Gordon Sellar, many of us thank both for being so open and brave to step forward. The news release can be read at  http://www.blackwatchcanada.com/dcforum/DCForumID12/5.html#
On May21 05, my husband died. He never knew that there were others like the Brigadier-General. He died thinking he was being foolish to even submit this claim. "A waste of time. No one will believe me" Those were his words. "Keep up the fight and prove it for so many others!" Those too were his words.
On May 22 05, our family doctor with the family, sent my husband for an 'investigation due to AgentOrange' autopsy to carry on his quest to prove his exposure.

That is the short story. Now an update
I was informed yesterday that my husbands file ('investigation due to AgentOrange' autopsy) had been sent to a major center (Halifax) because the local hospital (one of the large regional hospitals of NovaScotia) is understaffed. It is expected that the report could be ready in about 8 weeks.
I did not know that it could take 6 months for an autopsy to be performed... 

I am becoming paranoid here...  ???
NO person has a memory of the event we outlined??...  (most likely all have died, I expect my husband was the youngest member of the team.)
NewsPapers, covering the time of the incident, were turned over to Dept of Defense at their request??... I have a letter to that effect from UNB
My son, who lived just down the road, was denied a compassionate posting request and transferred??... This during the same time as he is going thru a G4-04 medical and preparing to retire after 25 yr service.
Minister of Defense has no time to respond to several emails, starting on Jun22??
My local member of parliament returns no calls??

Just an interesting story about one service member and the trials and torture a family can go through. This family is strong. My son, the one transferred, will return since he has served 25yrs and will be retiring soon. I am strong and I do not intend to let this go until we understand what the heck is going on/has gone on. I promised an update and I will continue to keep, those that are interested, updated as time goes by..... Sandy Skipton, former wife of a very brave MAN


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2005/10/13/1260938-cp.html

Tories eye Agent Orange inquiry
    
FREDERICTON (CP) - Two Conservative politicians in New Brunswick are calling on the federal Liberal government to make fundamental changes to the inquiry into the Agent Orange controversy at Canadian Forces Base Gagetown. 
New Brunswick MP Greg Thompson and Jody Carr, a member of the provincial legislature, say people simply don't trust Ottawa's investigation into the use of chemical herbicides at the sprawling base in southern New Brunswick. 

The head of the federal inquiry recently resigned, citing health problems, and Carr and Thompson say Ottawa should use the opportunity to restructure the entire investigation to make it more independent and open. 
They are recommending an arm's length technical review committee and a speedier compensation process for the hundreds of people who believe their health was harmed by exposure to herbicides used at the base from the 1950s to the 1980s. 
Fredericton MP Andy Scott, the senior New Brunswick representative in the federal Liberal cabinet, says he welcomes the recommendations. 

He says Ottawa is moving quickly to find a new co-ordinator for the investigation. 
Thompson and Carr believe Ottawa has not been sincere about the inquiry, but has been using it as a public relations exercise designed to stall payment of compensation.


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## Sandy Skipton

Search for Agent Orange barrels reveals metal traces Last updated Oct 14 2005 04:09 PM ADT
CBC News

 A dozen sites have been identified at CFB Gagetown as places where empty barrels of Agent Orange may be buried 
The engineering company Marine Groundwater Inc. has been exploring the base following allegations from former soldiers that chemical drums were buried after Agent Orange spray operations in the 1950s. 
The search for barrels began mid-summer, in the wake of allegations that dangerous defoliants used on the base may have damaged the health of soldiers and civilians. 
Its engineers discovered 12 suspicious locations in their search for buried chemical barrels. 
Some nearby residents suspected the army buried drums used for Agent Orange and other dangerous herbicides. 
Some veterans, including John Chisholm, who served on the base are also suspicious. "Some people I talked to have mentioned that some barrels of that might still be buried there," he said. 
MGI representative Mike Sauerteig explained the results at a news conference on Friday. "Our findings indicate that there are metallic anomalies present. The information we have would not tell you whether it is a drum or whether it is a small metal objects of some sort." 
Base Commander Col. Ryan Jestin says even with records indicating some of the burial sites, he's not convinced about what was actually buried. "If it's something that may contain contaminants and again this is pure speculation, but once we determine what it is by scraping off the top layers of the soil, then we're going to the next level which is to actually excavate it." 
Jestin says the military will hire a private company to dig up all 12 sites to find out whether the metal traces indicate the presence of buried contaminants. Results of those digs are expected in mid-November. 
Several veterans of the Black Watch who trained on the base during the Agent Orange spraying are watching this investigation closely. 
Earl Graves is one of them, and likes what he's seen so far. "I'm satisfied with the presentation today. Col. Jestin covered alot of ground and the current concerns that we had, he covered those, and what concerns we have we won't know until they get that stuff dug up and know what it actually is."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Residents demand Agent Orange answers Last updated Oct 13 2005 04:33 PM ADT
CBC News

 People concerned about the effect of herbicide spraying at CFB Gagetown are applauding efforts by two politicians to expedite the investigation. 
MP Greg Thompson and MLA Jody Carr are urging the federal government to change its approach to the problem so the public knows more about what's happening. 
John Chisholm lived and worked at Base Gagetown until 1970. He wonders whether chemical spraying during the 1950s might have contributed to his wife's death. "She was breathing that stuff, it was in her hands. Possibly my kids were into that. How far does this go?" 
Chisholm is just one of hundreds of Gagetown-area residents who want answers from a government investigation into the program, which sprayed Agent Orange over the base during the 1950s. 
Carr and Thompson held a news conference Thursday to demand a better method of gathering information. They say government efforts to provide answers to residents have been weak. They say a fact-finding body that held two hearings this summer and whose leader has resigned never had enough power. 
The two conservatives have come up with recommendations they say will improve the investigation. They say Ottawa has too much power over the probe and want researchers to have more indepedence. They want more research to be made public and to focus on testing for poisonous dioxins. They also want the government to pay for some blood tests speed access to compensation for victims. 
Carr says the current program is too complicated. "Currently there's three convoluted compensation processes, three different criteria, three different entitlements, and it's unfair. So we want this commitee to make specific recommendations and provide action so that we can fast-track compensation so that all those victims that have been hurt will be helped quicker."


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## childs56

The worst thing isn't just what has been sprayed on Military bases. During those times our governments allowed the use of many pesticides, and herbicides right up to today. What effects has this had on people and their health.  

Most military bases have contamination of numerous chemicals. I would figure the common ones would be oil and fuel. Until the last few years soldiers use to spill POL all the time, and never clean it up. (every time you filled with a jerry can, topped up oil) We hide behind our rules, regs and environmental laws now a days and act as if we didn't do anything wrong before. 

I would hate to see what comes of the final enquiry as to the level of contamination of all CF bases. For the most part, it was us the Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen that polluted our own areas, spilling fuel, kicking over that paint buckets. 

We look at what causes all these health problems, and we most certainly have to look at our own fault for the majority of them. Not wearing PPE, being lazy and not cleaning up the mess we just made. 

I in no way mean to take away from what the investigation in Gagetown and other bases are going through right now. I also don't mean to insult the suffering of people  affected by the type of contamination that has resulted. For the most part we did a lot of it to ourselves, threw lack of training, or inability to understand how things would effect us.


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## Sandy Skipton

http://www.newglasgownews.com/
Wednesday, October 19, 2005
The Betrayal of the Black Watch Jennifer Vardy

The barrels lay on the side of the road, with a strip of orange or purple running around them to signify their contents. 
The planes would swoop over the area, dumping the sticky chemicals on the foliage below, then set down and fill their canisters again. 
Some people, like George Megeney, were sprayed directly. Some rubbed against the chemical where it landed on the foliage. Some even drank it, because the only water available while training was from the streams and rivers that had been sprayed. 
"We didn't know what those planes were dumping, but it left an awful taste in your mouth," said ex-Black Watch member Ken Langille. "It was oily, like kerosene." 
In June, 1966, one of the largest live fire exercises ever held in the British Empire got underway at Gagetown. Participants included military forces from England, Scotland, the United States and Canada. Among them was the Black Watch, a regiment that was stationed at CFB Gagetown in Oromocto, N.B. 
"It was live fire, so there was live artillery. The Americans did a napalm drop," said Westville resident and former Black Watch member Hugh MacKenzie. "Unbeknownst to us at the time, the Americans were also spraying the area with defoliant. We later found out it was a combination of Agent Orange, Agent Purple and Agent White." 
The herbicides were dubbed Agent Orange and Agent Purple by the Americans because of the colours associated with them on the barrels. 
Soon afterwards, the litany of health problems began. Black Watch members are dying at a young age. Most of the 1,000 members were only in their early 20s when they were exposed, and of those, about 300 have died already, many not living beyond their early 50s. 
But the ex-Black Watch members say it wasn't just the military members who were affected. Their spouses and their children - even those who hadn't been born yet - experienced serious health issues. 
"Everyone here has a story," MacKenzie said of the two dozen former Black Watch members that live in Pictou County. "If you go around this table, you'll hear the horror stories. If it's not their health, it's their wife or their children." 
MacKenzie's eldest daughter was one of the children who was severely affected. She was born in 1969 without the top of her mouth. Over the years, she's required 20 surgeries to correct the problem, which finally ended with a bone graft. 
"The hell she went through..." MacKenzie said, shaking his head. "She was our firstborn, and we had to go to a veterinarian to get a long nipple that we could put on her bottle so the milk would go down her throat." 
She can't have children, either, and MacKenzie thinks his other three children are probably sterile as well. 
"It's always been my wife's wish to have grandchildren, but we've kind of accepted that's not going to happen," he said. 
Many other children were born with spina bifida, some had such severe birth defects they died shortly after birth and there are countless instances of cancer. 
Even the former members of Black Watch that are healthy right now fear that they could suddenly be stricken with a new medical problem. 
"Everybody here has been in the hospital for one reason or another related to Agent Orange," said Middle Brook resident George Lees. "I'm healthy right now as far as I know, but next month I could go in for tests and they'd find something wrong. I think it's in all of us." 
There were nine people in Lees platoon. Of those, four have already died, one of brain cancer. His wife had cancer of the arm as well, which he blames on the Agent Orange. 
"We wore our clothes home and our wives had to wash them," he said. "We were covered in the spray." 
Many of the ailments aren't always visible, but they do cause a lot of suffering, Langille added. 
"We all have a lot of health problems in our lives, but we have to live with it," he said. "We have some good days and some real bad. Today's bad. I've got aches and pains right from my neck to my tailbone, I've had bowel problems and stomach problems for years, too. All of us have suffered." 
Although there's no way to definitively say the ailments were caused by exposure to Agent Orange, similar symptoms in American soldiers who served in areas where the chemicals were sprayed has resulted in immediate eligibility for benefits. 
Symptoms in those cases included adult-onset diabetes, 11 types of cancer, bowel disease and heart attacks. Vietnamese officials also claim that the effects of Agent Orange are ongoing, as a disproportiontely large number of children are still born with genetic defects, both mental and physical, in the areas that were heavily sprayed. 
Research in the U.S. and Vietnam has shown that Agent Orange is filled with dioxins, which are extremely toxic to humans. Dioxins accumulate in the body and cause cancers. Anyone eating or drinking in contaminated areas then receives an even higher dose, according to Vietnamese doctors studying the effects of the chemical. 
To date, only a handful of monthly disability pensions have been issued to a Canadian for Agent Orange exposure. 
"They used us as guinea pigs to test something on us that didn't have to be tested," said MacKenzie. "They didn't consult us, but they invaded our bodies. They didn't need to test it, they'd already tested it in Vietnam." 
Megeney said it's even worse because it was for the benefit of the American government. 
"The government had a whole generation of guys like us," Megeney said. "We were mostly uneducated, children of working people, who were subjected to very dangerous chemicals without our consent. And it wasn't even for their own purposes. It was for the benefit of the American Marine Corp. That just makes it all a little bit worse. Our own government permitted them to do this." 
Many of the men questioned what they were spraying, Megeney recalled, but were told it wouldn't cause them any harm. 
"Even if we knew different, you couldn't complain to your superiors back then," he said. "You'd be labelled a complainer and you'd be out. You did what you were told and you kept your mouth shut." 
It's left the former military men angered as they lobby the government to do something to recognize their health issues. 
Many of them - along with their dependents, like MacKenzie's daughter - have entered a class action law suit against the government, demanding recognition. 
The suit was filed in July and is currently waiting to be accepted by the courts.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

I am expecting to have an update shortly.. After I have a meeting with my doctor to have my husbands autopsy report translated into layman english.... 
Some of you might be keeping up with the AgentOrange information by checking out www.agentorangealert.com  website. For those that don't check that website, I am including a new request for your consideration... 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Base Gagetown and Area Fact-Finders' Project, 
witness protection program needed"     written by Ken Young


We Need some help from all ex soldiers and Civilians alike that might have been affected by Agent Orange, Purple, White, Green to name a few of the stuff that was dumped on us soldiers who trained in Gagetown between 1956 and 1984. This includes Families that lived in PMQ and the people that lived in the surrounding area during that same time frame. We could use the help of family and friends of the people affected also because numbers do count when it comes to getting anything from the Government.

There are more then a few witnesses that want to come forward with documentation and facts that have not yet been presented to the general public, however they are afraid that they may loose their pensions, AO settlements and some even fear jail time. High ranking Officers and Corporate Officials not to mention the people that actually did the spraying at this time have their hands tied, or better said their mouths shut, by the Official Secrets Act, Corporation Confidentiality Oaths and Pension & Settlement Non disclosure Clauses.

We need everyone or as many as possible to write to the Newspaper in their towns, to their MP's and even to the PM and ask that there be some form of protection for them that testify in front of the BGAFFP, so that more people do come forward. If the Whistle blowers act was in effect we would be alright but our fearless leaders in their infinite wisdom have been stalling on this one.

I find it hard to believe that our Government could refuse us that much after all is said and done, we are both after the truth or so I am told. If the Canadian Government really wishes answers they must protect people that may have Military of Corporate restricted or confidential documents and who may wish to hand them over to the BGAFFP in their mission.

Some of these people are already sick and dying and they don't need Jail time to be added to their load.

Thank you Guys in advance.     To sum things up we need a "BGAFFP witness protection program".

Ken Young
Nanaimo, BC
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## Bruce Monkhouse

Thought this might liven things up here,
Quote from 3rd Horseman,[ from the "Army Culture" thread]
  _A note on all the Agent Orange hype,

  I was not around back then but served under those that were and I dont believe for a second that any of them would have put soldiers in harms way. That being said the facts about Agent Orange are very clear for those who are inside the mil but appear to be clouded outside. A few points on AO 
   Agent Orange was sprayed (two barrels) in two places on the base by US contractors no forces were near or at ground zero.
   The residual effects of AO are not present enough to rub off onto a soldiers uniform or persist in the soil or water after a period of time. Soldiers did not exercise in the two test areas after the spraying until much later if at all.
  AO is a combination of two herbicides that those same soldiers back in the 60s could have bought at a hardware store for usage on there own lawns.
  The whole thing is just a little blown out of proportion. Not to take away from the real problem of the 20 year herbicide spray program which was conducted by civilians who after long periods of exposure of mixing and spraying probably have gotten ill, they deserve the review and the compensation._


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## Sandy Skipton

hmmm.. I find it interesting that 3rd Horseman would comment that he was not there... and he served under those that were... Brig/General Sellars was a leader there and he died due to AO... DVA accepted his claim after he fought for 15 yrs..    then there is the lists that have been shown in this thread of just what was sprayed, that information was taken from DND documents available via access of information.  The quote from 3rd Horseman was made without an effort to read any information about the subject.... 

More and more of the BlackWatch are stepping forward to tell their stories... I would be ashamed to say any of the BlackWatch would add to a 'HYPE"  Perhaps the ones that were there are very clear on the facts about Agent Orange and KNOW the facts more clearly than those that came later.... I further noticed no mention of the Agent Purple or Agent White that were also sprayed.. this is not JUST about AgentOrange... btw.. AO is chemically comprised of the same chemicals as what were sprayed from 1956 til 1967 then Agent White was sprayed til about 1984. This hype about Gagetown is about Chemicals... deadly chemicals that were not all called AO since some of them were sprayed before the Americans 'nicknamed' the chemical composition 'Agent Orange'

anyone that would like to educate themselves on this topic should check out www.agentorangealert.com
no insult is intended towards 3rd Horseman


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## 3rd Horseman

Miksam,

     The post from bruce was a cut and paste from another area and was out of context.

Non the less it does not change the substance of what I believe and what I know. I did read all the posts on AO and I have a detailed knowledge of AO and Base Gagetown. I stand by my belief that AO was not an issue at CFB Gagetown that does not mean I dont believe that the 20 years of spraying herbicides by some civi workers did kill them or cause severe medical impairments. One must remember that the substance AO and the other herbicides sprayed were legal chemicals that anyone could buy at the local hardware store and spray at home. The contention from the other thread is that it was not done on purpose that is the out of context part.

Go to the base talk to the people in charge they have no axe to grind they wont lie or cover anything up they will tell you the truth.


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## Sandy Skipton

I can agree with you that at the time it was legal chemicals that were sprayed... BUT, when it was found that the chemicals were damaging to people and then the government found that people were dying, THEY did nothing... 
They are still doing NOTHING... As more and more people asked questions they continued to do NOTHING... well they did set up a 'fact-finding mission' that will listen to our sad stories, that was nice WOW!!!  The facts are already known so why are they wasting $800,000 dollars to continue doing NOTHING?

THEY could have let Medical Service in the area of Gagetown know, so that if someone came in with symptoms, they could be properly treated... THEY could have let Military Medical Service know so that if a member developed a medical problem, they could have been properly treated... Instead THEY did NOTHING... My husbands symptoms showed up right after the exposure but could not be diagnosed. At that time he and maybe DND did not know about the symptoms of DIOXIN exposure. His symptoms were documented. The Base Surgeon was just as confused... and that continued throughout his time served. These symptoms and the symptoms of many many people could have been better handled IF "THEY" (DND/Government) had not lied and denied what THEY knew... 

Now facts are being exposed. The main fact is that lots of questions were asked.. The government answered with saying they never sprayed such chemicals... LIE    DVA, at first told me that there were no chemical exposure problems concerning CFB Gagetown... LIE   Now the truth is coming out only because people are coming forward to talk. 

You tell me... should a member have to fight for proper medical service at the same time they are fighting to protect Canada?  Think about all the members that have returned, lately, from Africa, with medical problems and had to fight for recognition of their medical problems... 

My husbands body was damaged by these chemicals, just as many other people were damaged. YES, it is a fact that Miltary members can expect that to happen. BUT he could have had better 'Quality of life' if THEY had been truthful and his life could have been extended if THEY had been truthful... Think really hard. DO YOU THINK THE GOVERMENT IS TRUTHFUL???   All any of us are asking is for OUR government to be honest with the citizens of Canada... IS THAT TO MUCH TO ASK?

If you, 3rd Horseman, have detailed personal knowledge of AO and Base Gagetown, I am asking you to share it because all truth pro or con MUST come out... btw I have gone to Gagetown, I have spoken to serving members there and I agree that the CO seems to want the truth, but even he is being held back because he has no control over who is testing or what is being tested and he also has a job that he MUST do... Can he closed the training area until the testing is completed? NO  Does his budget cover more involved testing? NO  Has he informed the soldiers being trained there or the instuctors about the 'possible' dangers? NO because that might slow things down.... Lets be honest all way around and look at this from all sides... I was a CO myself, for a small unit, a weekend soldier but I still know that a CO is just another Military Member that has to answer to the DND. DND is part of THEY 'Government' and government have LIED  "PROVEN" by their own documents. Our Miltary Members are the BEST that there is and we/they deserve the best. NOT LIES.    
At this time AOAC (AgentOrangeAssociation of Canada) is only asking for a public inquiry into this matter so that people who have signed 'Confidentiality Agreements' can come forward to speak out, with protection from legal action against them. Let us hear the complete truth and then we can all decide...


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## Sandy Skipton

Can anyone out there help with the request below?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Art Connolly

It has been brought to my attention that a request has been made to the University of New Brunswick's Harriet Irving Library for copies of the CFB Gagetown military newspaper that were published prior to 1968.  Below is a portion of the response:



> "In reference to your initial question concerning our holdings of the
> Oromocto Post Gazette, UNB has either the originals or copies on
> microfilm starting with the date of April 11, 1968. This paper with
> various titles, started publishing under its initial banner Camp
> Gagetown Gazette on December 16, 1960. A year or so ago, the results of
> contacting by phone various departments: local library, Gagetown
> Military Museum, CFB Gagetown's Public Affairs Office, staff at the
> newspaper, National Archives, National Library and the Department of
> Heritage, and the Department of National Defence Library produced no
> earlier copies of this paper. Of note, staff at the newspaper had
> indicated they believed the papers they had stored were transferred to
> the Department of National Defence as requested."



Why is DND requesting that copies of papers prior to 1968 be transferred to DND? Are they hiding something? 

Anyone who may have copies of any of these papers please advise me at  webmaster@agentorangealert.com


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## George Wallace

MIKsam said:
			
		

> Why is DND requesting that copies of papers prior to 1968 be transferred to DND? Are they hiding something?
> 
> Anyone who may have copies of any of these papers please advise me at  webmaster@agentorangealert.com


It looks to me like you are looking for a conspiracy where there is none.  Many Newspapers, especially small ones, will empty out their basements of their old copies.  They try to find a Museum or Archives that will accept them.  In this case, you are probably looking at this practice having been done in the past, with relevant copies being sent to DND historical archives.


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## Sandy Skipton

re-read the posting I made ... 
The quote is from a letter written by the University of NB .. they retain a microfilm of pretty well all NB newspapers in their archive but the papers referred to were missing.. much to the surprise of the Univ.. so they investigated and tried to locate them in a list of places, with no luck. 
So now, what is being asked is that anyone having any papers "Oromocto Post Gazette" dated prior to 1968, please contact webmaster@agentorangealert.com


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## Acorn

As it was a military (base) paper at the time, it was likely treated differently - like a unit newsletter, rather than a newspaper. I would guess that, since it started publishing in 1960 and the first copy on microfilm is 1968, it is simply an oversight, or it wasn't considered important enough, or maybe there wasn't the budget to microfilm it.

In any case, if it was a base paper/newsletter I doubt you'd find anything you're looking for. Have a look at current base papers for examples of the type of editorial content you'd likely see. Not very controversial stuff in them.

Acorn


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## Young KH

Quote from George Wallace Nov, 2nd. 2005

It looks to me like you are looking for a conspiracy where there is none.  Many Newspapers, especially small ones, will empty out their basements of their old copies.  They try to find a Museum or Archives that will accept them.  In this case, you are probably looking at this practice having been done in the past, with relevant copies being sent to DND historical archives.
**********************************************

Looking for a conspiracy, No we don't have to look anywhere for that. What would you call spraying ones own troops with deadly chemicals and then for close to 50 years and through many secretive Governments not a word leaks out and this from people who just love the lime light? Reporters dug, reported suspicions and were shot down with the "It never happened "defense. Even today when they only admitted to it when they were confronted with the documents from the USA about the 66 &67 Agent Orange sprayings but still won't admit to the spraying done from 1956 through 1984, even when we have the DND's on documentation of that very  spraying. If you don't believe that this is a conspiracy of silence, well there is no pill for stupidity, enough said.
************************************
************************************

Quote from 3rd. Horseman Oct, 26th. 2005

One must remember that the substance AO and the other herbicides sprayed were legal chemicals that anyone could buy at the local hardware store and spray at home. The contention from the other thread is that it was not done on purpose that is the out of context part.
****************************************

One must also remember that bullets are legal however Canadian soldiers shouldn't expect their own Government to order them to be shot because of it. Arsenic is still legal but try feed it to your wife and just see where that lands you. No where on any label of them chemicals did it say safe for human consumption nor did it say go ahead and spray the people and on the bottles that you say was available to the general public it does say keep away from pets and wild life. I know that everything in the Army isn't safe but the troops deserved a heads up not to eat the berries, drink the water, use dead twigs to stir the food, they needed to be told not to use dried leaves to wipe their behinds and so many other things that are just taken for granted when in the field. To be warned about the dangers," We as Soldiers deserved that much."  If you can't see that, well, (There is none so blind as those that will not see."


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## George Wallace

Young KH said:
			
		

> Quote from George Wallace Nov, 2nd. 2005
> 
> It looks to me like you are looking for a conspiracy where there is none.   Many Newspapers, especially small ones, will empty out their basements of their old copies.   They try to find a Museum or Archives that will accept them.   In this case, you are probably looking at this practice having been done in the past, with relevant copies being sent to DND historical archives.
> **********************************************
> 
> Looking for a conspiracy, No we don't have to look anywhere for that. What would you call spraying ones own troops with deadly chemicals and then for close to 50 years and through many secretive Governments not a word leaks out and this from people who just love the lime light? Reporters dug, reported suspicions and were shot down with the "It never happened " defense. Even today when they only admitted to it when they were confronted with the documents from the USA about the 66 &67 Agent Orange sprayings but still won't admit to the spraying done from 1956 through 1984, even when we have the DND's on documentation of that very   spraying. If you don't believe that this is a conspiracy of silence, well there is no pill for stupidity, enough said.
> ************************************
> ************************************



Well, if you don't come off as someone wearing a tinfoil hat, no one will.

First off  READ what I was posting before going on your little tirade.   I wasn't posting on a conspiracy to hide spraying.  I was posting on the practice of newspapers cleaning out their archives.   No conspiracy there.   Small papers only have a limited amount of space in their facilities within which to operate.   From time to time they have to clean out their basements in order for more recent and pertinant news to be archived.   If they can, they send these items to any museum (or Archives) that may be interested in keeping it.   Don't forget that these museums also have limited space and must also weed out what they deem unimportant, duplicate, or not relevant to their mandates.   

Now.  In over thirty years of service, I have never ever been sprayed in any way, shape or form, as you insinuate as being "common practice".


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## Sandy Skipton

Fact: Soldiers experimentally exposed to Mustard Gas, please note how long they fought for recognition,  while the Government said it did not happen....     http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/05/11/canada/mustard040511
Fact: Agent Orange, Agent Purple sprayed at Gagetown during 66-67   admitted to by DND Jun23,2005   
Fact: Same, or more dangerous Chemicals sprayed 1956-1984  reported in DND doc #A-2004-00207  Government does not believe their own files?
Fact: accidental over spray    reported in DND doc  #A-2004-00207
Fact: Brig/Gen Sellars is accepted as being ill due to exposure to Agent Orange, yet DVA drag their feet in accepting that his troops were as well?
Fact: DND admits spraying in 66-67 *and basements are cleared out of papers prior to April 68?*

Just a few facts that show that Soldiers have been used in experiments and that they have been sprayed by dangerous chemicals. To show how long it takes to have the Government admit to their behaviour. Show the Government their own papers and they continue to say it did not happen... DND said they had no record of who went thru Gagetown and then come up with what they say are facts and figures, within days? Government sets aside $800,000 of citizen $s to investigate what they say never happened?  DVA ask DND to find the history files for CFB Chatham and have no luck? (and that is a fact btw)

I think there are a lot of question marks.. and all we want to know is "Does anyone out there have any copies of The Gagetown Gazette from prior to April 1968" and we did not say that DND took those papers, the staff said they believe the papers were turned over to DND at their request. All we are saying is we are looking for truth and that is what we want the government to do too.

Now an update on my husbands autopsy... It was found he died of extensive bronchopneumonia. The underlying cause of death was extensive LargeCell Carcinoma of uncertain origin... so I am still in the twilight zone of the uncertain, the unknown, and still questioning...


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## Michael Dorosh

MIKsam said:
			
		

> hmmm.. I find it interesting that 3rd Horseman would comment that he was not there... and he served under those that were... Brig/General Sellars was a leader there and he died due to AO...



Sorry, was this Gordon Sellars?  If so, he was a Calgary Highlander during WW II, and he only passed away like a year ago - so Agent Orange cut his life short at, well, like, 80 years or so....


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## armyvern

Young KH said:
			
		

> What would you call spraying ones own troops with deadly chemicals and then for close to 50 years


While those chemicals were being used it was unknown that they were 'deadly.' Holy crap, everybody in this damn town was spraying their lawns with weed killer throughout the 70s & 80s while I grew up here. Most of those chemicals are now banned due to their being hazardous. During my first posting here in the mid-90s people were still spraying their lawns with weed killer (most types now also banned). So was the base. When it became known that these were indeed hazardous, the Base ceased using them and guess what? The local hardware stores also pulled them off their shelves. Looking for conspiracies? Look at mercury fillings, silicone implants etc etc. All very legal substances to use at the time just a 3rd Horseman points out. When the health effects are found out, the bulk of the crap gets pulled off the market and out of distribution. 25 years down the road, I'm quite sure that we'll be hearing about something else, currently in use throughout our workplace and our homes, is/was bad for our health. I don't call that a conspiracy, I call it health effects which take time to appear, and when they do, usage stops. 


			
				Young KH said:
			
		

> One must also remember that bullets are legal however Canadian soldiers shouldn't expect their own Government to order them to be shot because of it. Arsenic is still legal but try feed it to your wife and just see where that lands you.


This is an assinine statement. You would be committing a crime by doing this. Funny, my dad while serving here during your quoted time periods of 66/67 (actually was here from 66-74) never once got intentionally 'sprayed down with chemicals' nor unintentionally for that matter. He doesn't even recall meeting/serving with a person who claimed to have been intentionally sprayed down until recently. 


			
				Young KH said:
			
		

> No where on any label of them chemicals did it say safe for human consumption nor did it say go ahead and spray the people and on the bottles that you say was available to the general public it does say keep away from pets and wild life.


They were stupid enough to consume this?? Give me a break. The health effects were not known at the time, and once again, as soon as they were the labels went on or the crap was pulled off the market. 


			
				Young KH said:
			
		

> I know that everything in the Army isn't safe but the troops deserved a heads up not to eat the berries, drink the water, use dead twigs to stir the food, they needed to be told not to use dried leaves to wipe their behinds and so many other things that are just taken for granted when in the field. To be warned about the dangers," We as Soldiers deserved that much."


Yes, "Caution coffee is HOT!!" There is an investigation currently going on here and testing being done by a few different "independant" companies....I think I'll wait for it's results before posting unwarranted scare tactics such as poisoning due to stirring my coffee with a stick almost 40 years later.


			
				Young KH said:
			
		

> If you can't see that, well, (There is none so blind as those that will not see."


Thanks, I'll remain blind...until the evidence is in. We do that in this country....

As for the gashing of the Gazette...it is common practise for small town papers to keep archived items for a period of 25 years. Therefore, by my estimate, the last Gazette would have disappeared by the wayside in 1993 when it's copy would have been 25 years old, if DND was in fact keeping with their civilian counterparts in this respect. This was common practise for ALL base newspapers, not just Gagetown's. It would not have been fiched (this began in 68) as it was not a Community paper. I am unsure as to the exact year that DND began fiching it's Base Papers, but the great majority began doing this post 1970....so if you think that is proof of anything, then I guess every single Base is on the cover-up as well, because you won't be finding to many issues of strictly Base papers fiched for the same years as your missing evidence.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

http://www.rmcclub.ca/eVeritas/2005/Issue018/200518Sellar.htm

I have no idea of Brig/Gen Sellar's age. Does it matter? The fact is that DVA accepted his claim of his illness due to Agent Orange exposure at CFB Gagetown yet are dragging their feet accepting claims from troops he commanded. He also commanded the Black Watch regiment at Gagetown during the 60s.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

MIKsam said:
			
		

> http://www.rmcclub.ca/eVeritas/2005/Issue018/200518Sellar.htm
> 
> I have no idea of Brig/Gen Sellar's age. Does it matter? The fact is that DVA accepted his claim of his illness due to Agent Orange exposure at CFB Gagetown yet are dragging their feet accepting claims from troops he commanded. He also commanded the Black Watch regiment at Gagetown during the 60s.



Of course it matters; the death of a guy living into his 80s is not proof in and of itself that he was poisoned when he was in his 40s...you said he died directly as a result of his exposure, but given that he lived 40 more years, the claim is a little less impactful than if he keeled over the next day.


----------



## Young KH

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Of course it matters; the death of a guy living into his 80s is not proof in and of itself that he was poisoned when he was in his 40s...you said he died directly as a result of his exposure, but given that he lived 40 more years, the claim is a little less impactful than if he keeled over the next day.



That's the whole point, because we don't die quickly enough for everyone we have no clame. The problem isn't so much the dieing but the many years of illnesses.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Young KH said:
			
		

> That's the whole point, because we don't die quickly enough for everyone we have no clame. The problem isn't so much the dieing but the many years of illnesses.



And the proof that the illness was directly attributable to the AO, and that the government should reasonably have known that would result when it was being used at the time.


----------



## Young KH

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> And the proof that the illness was directly attributable to the AO, and that the government should reasonably have known that would result when it was being used at the time.



And what the heck does " the government should reasonably have known that would result when it was being used ," have to do with it. It was done to soldiers while they were in the forces and that should be all the proof needed.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

I am amazed at the lack of comprehension when reading. I take great care when I post facts and turning my words into something from the 'fog zone' must only be due to fact that Mr Dorosh, and maybe others, really don't care what they post but that they just post for the sake of posting.

Mr. Dorosh, nothing was said about what Brig/Gen Sellar's ultimate cause of death was. My comment was that he, as a commander, won his claim fight with DVA. Why then is DVA dragging their feet about settling claims for the troops he was commanding at the time of his exposure? Lets add a question.
Did Brig/Gen Sellar go thru this exercise of fighting for compensation for himself or for his troops? I did not know the man but I have read about him and developed respect for him. I venture to say he had compassion for those he commanded. I would further venture to say he fought for compensation to prove exactly what happened 40 years ago.
Is DVA waiting for the troops, in this case, to suffer for as many years and die, before their exposure and contamination is recognized?

Yes this has taken a long time for this exposure to come to light and that has been due to the fact that the government denied and lied about the spaying for so many years. The spraying took place in the 60s and it took until July 2005 for the government to FINALLY admit to what we have known for years. 

Hide your head in the sand. Read only the words you want to see. Take the ME out of the word assume and continue to post rapidly to see your own words. I am more than willing to have indepth discussion on this topic but I will not have untrue words added to my posts by anyone that posts just to see their total posts quota climb... THANK YOU


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## armyvern

A copy of the "Fact Finding Mission Tasks" for the different independant Civilian Contractor's who have been hired to perform the soil samples, digging etc throughout Gagetown. This was an interesting read and I noted that not only were these independant contractor's reviewing/testing from the 66/67 AO/AP sprayings, but were actually reviewing the use and spraying of ALL pesticides used throughout Gagetown from 1952 to the present. Studies are also being conducted with the towns surrounding the Gagetown trg area to determine if cancer levels, etc have/are occurring in higher concentrations than in 'control areas.' I think the results of these studies will be interesting to say the least and await their reports:

http://www.basegagetownandareafactfindersproject.ca/task3.html

Vern


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## Doreen

Mr. Dorosh:  I am not here to either agree or disagree with you.  I am far to fatigued to argue.  I can only tell you the facts.  One of the facts is that 20 to 30 years after exposure G. Sellars widow was awarded a pension from DVA.  I do know that he was diagnosed at least 15 years prior to that time.  I was diagnosed with the same type of leukemia as G. Sellars.  I was diagnosed 29 years after spending three years at CFB Gagetown.  The type and form of Leukemia that he had and that I have is an extremely rare form of leukemia.  The rarest form known to man and only identified in 1980.  It is the T Cell variety of leukemia.  I am certainly not 80 or close to it.  I was 31 years old when I left Gagetown and was diagnosed on my 60th birthday.  Happy Birthday to me.  Did Agent Orange, Agent Purple or Agent White have anything to do with my leukemia?  We'll see.  I have had an unusual white cell count since 1975 and at that time started having all kinds of wierd things happen to my body, including a compulsory hysterectomy at age 36.  Enough..............I'm tired.  I doubt very much that I will live to see the outcome of all of this but I feel that once in awhile I just need to voice my concerns.  If nothing else happens I do hope that my children and grandchildren receive some compensation.  They are losing their mother and grandmother far, far too young.  My newest is only 1 1/2 and it breaks my heart that she won't ever remember me.  I will be gone before she is old enough to remember.


----------



## 3rd Horseman

Sorry to all who have ill health I trust you will get your answers and hopfully gain better health.

  The results should be in from the latest round of testing shortly I hope you don't have to wait very long to hear them. They have been done in similar fashion to the first two investigations and I would suggest the result will be the same. Possibly the problems with dioxin health issues comes from the power lines that were sprayed or the rail beds or the school playgrounds or the ditches and country roads. The entire country was sprayed, Irving still sprays to this day! I doubt the training area spray had much to with anything unless you worked on the crews, I'm sure the results will mirror the last two investigations and I hope that you all can look elswere for the nature of your illnesses and get the help and better health you deserve.


----------



## STONEY

I noticed today that there is a report in the paper about people from across Canada from both metro area's and wilderness area's  had there blood & urine tested and they all had tested positive for cancer causing comtaminates. It appears everyone is in the same boat.
   A few years ago i watched a airline pilot being interviewed who was a former military pilot that actually sprayed agent orange at Gagetown. He told of spraying from a helo with the doors off so he could see better,and routinely would finish his day soaked to the skin with spray from backdraft and would have to wring out  his flight suit . He since became a airline pilot which requires strict medical exams and he still today has perfect health.  Some people smoke all there lives and don't get lung cancer others smoke 1 pack when they were 15 and get lung cancer 20 years later and blame tobaco. 
     Ammunition manufacturers test there products on their own ranges and their workers are  routinely exposed to DU ammo for 20 years and have fine health but a soldier exposed to DU for a few hours claim it causes health problems. Children's Hospital's are full of young children who have'nt been to either Gagetown or a combat zone yet suffer the same problems that we like to blame on the military. Is our health just a big lotto or is it just easier to blame someone else in our anger. Who can say,certainly not i,but others will never take no for an answer. 

In Flanders fields the poppies grow..........  Remember!!!


----------



## Sandy Skipton

Information for those that might be interested.... 

November 14, 2005
From: Art Connolly
UPDATE
The Standing Committee On National Defence and Veteran Affairs will be meeting on November 17, 2005 at 3:30 PM Eastern Time on Parliament Hill in Ottawa Ontario. Invited to speak at the meeting is Ken Dobbie, Gloria Sellar, Jody Carr MLA, Wayne Cardinal and yours truly Art Connolly
It is my understanding that CPAC will be broadcasting the meeting on its internet simulcast located at
http://parlvu.parl.gc.ca/parlvuen%2Dca/Guide.aspx?viewmode=1&categoryid=-1&currentdate=2005-11-17&_eventid=-1&languagecode=12298
It is listed under NDDN Meeting at 3:30 PM. (OttawaTimeZone)
Any more information will be updated as it is known.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

Meeting time for SCONDVA (concerning Chemical Exposure at Gagetown during 50s-80s) has changed, approximately 10 witnesses have been called to Ottawa to my knowledge. It is expected that the "Standing Committee on National Defense and Veterans Affairs" will be broadcast via internet and can be located at:

http://parlvu.parl.gc.ca/parlvuen%2Dca/Guide.aspx?viewmode=0&categoryid=184&currentdate=2005-11-17&eventid=-1&languagecode=12298

Rather interesting that the day prior to the SCONDVA meeting it was reported that Dr Furlong, former Minister of Health Prov of NewBrunswick, Co-chair is to be Karen Ellis, the Assistant Deputy Minister of Infrastructure and Environment for National Defence. http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=1811

When the victims are asking for a transparent and public investigation, we recognize that Dr Furlong was the  Provincial Conservative in NB (Minister of Health)... but I have to ask if Karen Ellis was assigned as co-chair to look after the interests of the Liberal Government and DND as this investigation progresses? On Jun 23, Karen Ellis represented DND during the meeting that was held in the theatre at Gagetown and at that time she seemed to have no particular expertise or knowledge concerning the topic and displayed shock and surprise at the information that the victims could produce from DND files.


----------



## armyvern

MIKsam said:
			
		

> When the victims are asking for a transparent and public investigation, we recognize that Dr Furlong was the   Provincial Conservative in NB (Minister of Health)... but I have to ask if Karen Ellis was assigned as co-chair to look after the interests of the Liberal Government and DND as this investigation progresses?


Well, if that's the case I guess it's 50/50 isn't it? That seems more than fair to me. But I've got to ask...even if it was 2 conservative MPs doing this....if they come back and say it's not related to AO/AP etc...are you going to be satisfied with that answer? I didn't think so. 
No matter who oversees anything having to do with this, and no matter how impartial they are; you will only be satisfied with one outcome and that is a finding in favour of yourselves. 
So why stress about it now? Sit back, see what happens...hopefully you get the outcome that you desire.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

Armyvern, I have read your profile and I understand it to say that you are serving in Gagetown at this time?
Perhaps you don't realize just how long I/we have been waiting for this to end. We have taken a stand for our younger military members. 
My Dear (I can say that cause I am twice your age) Canadians have sat back long enough and on this topic. We will NOT sit back. NO!!, we will fight so that the younger generation will never have to live through what we have and I sure hope that younger generation will show backbone when it comes to their turn to stand up. Yesterday we heard that the Chemical testing being done in Gagetown is not for our generation but instead it is to make sure that Gagetown is safe for all those that are working and training there today... so while you SIT BACK and protect the citizens of Canada, we will step forward to attempt to protect you.... and I sure hope you NEVER sit back and await an outcome of any battle.... 
btw... This topic pertains to ALL Chemical Sprayings, not just AO/AP/AW


----------



## armyvern

MIKsam said:
			
		

> Armyvern, I have read your profile and I understand it to say that you are serving in Gagetown at this time?
> Perhaps you don't realize just how long I/we have been waiting for this to end. We have taken a stand for our younger military members.


Thank you.


			
				MIKsam said:
			
		

> My Dear (I can say that cause I am twice your age)


This is OK. I have no problems with people calling me dear, sweetie, whatever. Things like this do not offend me, I take them in context, and I respect my elders.


			
				MIKsam said:
			
		

> Canadians have sat back long enough and on this topic. We will NOT sit back. NO!!, we will fight so that the younger generation will never have to live through what we have and I sure hope that younger generation will show backbone when it comes to their turn to stand up. Yesterday we heard that the Chemical testing being done in Gagetown is not for our generation but instead it is to make sure that Gagetown is safe for all those that are working and training there today... so while you SIT BACK and protect the citizens of Canada, we will step forward to attempt to protect you....


Perhaps you've taken my remarks out of context here, I said relax as well and that it seemed 50/50 which means evenly split which I take to = fair. You threw in a little commentary that made it seem like you were claiming a conspiracy was in the works. I just pointed out with 1 liberal/1 conservative, that would tend to rule out what your comment was implying.


			
				MIKsam said:
			
		

> and I sure hope you NEVER sit back and await an outcome of any battle....


Hey I grew up here, my dad was posted here during the questioned time periods for the AO etc...and lket me just re-assure you that I have never in my life sat back and waited for anything, nor do I have any plans to.


			
				MIKsam said:
			
		

> btw... This topic pertains to ALL Chemical Sprayings, not just AO/AP/AW


I realize this, ergo the reason I said 





> AO/AP etc...


. Perhaps, if you read the whole thread you will also find that I make mention of other chemicals in my other posts. There's hundreds, AO/AP etc does fine for me, I'm not going to waste bandwidth listing them all each time.
Are you accusing me of not supporting you or my fellow soldiers? Because I believe that you missed the very last sentance of my post you're quoting above...


> hopefully you get the outcome that you desire.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

Thank you Armyvern, I may have responded a bit to quickly.. but it was the 





> So why stress about it now? Sit back, see what happens


 that basically caused my reaction.... 

and your right, I/we do see a conspiracy of lying and denying.... 
For any that would like to view the Committee meeting from Nov17.. It will be aired today on CPAC, the Canadian Parliamentary channel. 



> NATIONAL DEFENCE
> 
> Sunday, November 20 at 12PM ET / 9AM PT
> 
> Members convened on November 17 for a briefing session on Agent Orange. Among the witnesses was Kenneth Dobbie from the Agent Orange Association of Canada.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

> Thu 24 Nov 2005
> 
> The Chatham Daily News
> 
> Agent Orange also hits civilians: Class-action lawsuit grows as word spreads
> 
> by Grant LaFleche
> 
> THOROLD -- Like all tall tales, it grew in the telling. A story about
> a dangerous chemical that makes Vietnam War veterans sick sprayed
> over a Canadian army base some 40 years ago.
> 
> For decades, it was regarded as a myth among Canadian soldiers, who
> knew only a skeletal outline of the story of Agent Orange being
> sprayed at CFB Gagetown in New Brunswick.
> 
> But in dark tales of soldiers being used as unwitting lab rats were
> bits of truth.
> 
> They might not have passed from myth to fact and become national news
> were it not for a single dead soldier and a Kingston man with a
> shrinking brain.
> 
> That Agent Orange and other herbicides containing chemicals toxic to
> humans were used to clear dense forest at Gagetown was never an
> official secret. It just wasn't well known. And those who did know
> about it weren't talking. But in Kingston, there was one man who was.
> 
> Gordon Sellar was a retired brigadier general who commanded more than
> 1,000 soldiers at Gagetown in the 1960s.
> 
> He would later develop chronic lymphocytic leukemia, which he claimed
> was caused by Agent Orange. He applied for compensation through
> Veterans Affairs Canada.
> 
> In 2004, the federal government acknowledged the spraying of Agent
> Orange had led to Sellar's illness and awarded his compensation.
> Sellar died two weeks later.
> 
> It was the first domino to fall. Sellar's victory brought the issue
> out in the open to the general public for the first time.
> 
> As Sellar pursued the government to accept his application, another
> Kingston man had become convinced his three-decades struggle with a
> list of health problems was caused by the toxic dioxin found in Agent
> Orange.
> 
> Ken Dobbie, 57, worked at the CFB Gagetown as a teenager and says he
> now gets tested for liver cancer -- one of the cancers associated
> with high exposure to dioxin -- every three months.
> 
> That would seem like paranoia but for his list of health problems.
> 
> Dobbie says he suffers from nine serious illnesses, including
> pancreatitis and diabetes. His doctors have told him he has sclerosis
> of the liver, even though he doesn't drink. He has growths on his
> thyroid.
> 
> Most bizarre, the frontal lobes of his brain have atrophied by 30 per
> cent, resulting in blackouts, seizures and memory losses. He
> sometimes has trouble telling left from right.
> 
> "It's scary. I am always in pain," he says. "They told me my brain
> had atrophied. I mean, how does that happen? Nobody could understand
> what caused this."
> 
> Dobbie was hired to work on the base through the Canada Youth Works
> Program in 1966.
> 
> "There were about 500 kids that were hired altogether," Dobbie says.
> "Some of the kids got jobs cutting the extensive lawns on the base,
> some got jobs cleaning sewers, some got jobs cleaning the barracks.
> 
> "But the main project, the one I was involved in, was cutting and
> burning the defoliated brush."
> 
> For the 10 years before Dobbie was hired, the military used powerful
> herbicides to clear brush. At that time, the herbicide 2,4,5-T, which
> can contain dioxin, was used extensively.
> 
> When Dobbie was hired to clear away brush killed by the herbicides,
> the army was experimenting with Agent Orange, which contained 2,4,5-T.
> 
> Dobbie says the work crews were not issued protective gear because no
> one knew about the toxins in the herbicides.
> 
> "You have to remember it was hot, sweaty, dirty work. We would strip
> to the waist. I can remember the brush was sticky to the touch. It
> was all dead and the best way I can describe it was that it smelled
> metallic."
> 
> The crews would even eat lunch where they worked, he said.
> 
> As time went by, Dobbie's health slipped away. With each new aliment,
> his frustration and that of his doctors grew.
> 
> Specialists began to suspect some of his problems were caused by some
> kind of chemical exposure, but it wasn't until 1994, when he saw a
> toxicologist about his atrophied brain, that he made the connection.
> 
> "One of things this doctor has you do is fill out a questionnaire and
> one question is, had you ever worked with hazardous chemicals. Right
> then, it clicked. Gagetown."
> 
> Dobbie has become the public face of those claiming they were harmed
> by the spray programs.
> 
> He is the lead plaintiff in the class action suit against the
> Department of National Defence claiming the use of agents Orange,
> Purple and White damaged the health of soldiers, civilians and
> surrounding properties.
> 
> The lawsuit has not yet been certified, but Dobbie's involvement has
> earned him some attention in the national media.
> 
> His appearance on Canada A.M. this summer caused other former
> Gagetown residents to come forward, including Thorold's Nancy Belfry.
> 
> She grew up at CFB Gagetown where her father was stationed in the
> 1960s and, like Dobbie, has struggled for decades with a strange
> array of health problems.
> 
> "I really started to connect the dots when I saw Mr. Dobbie on
> television," she says. "I thought, is this the cause of it all?"
> 
> Belfry's father has steadfastly refused to discuss anything about
> Agent Orange, with the media or his daughter.
> 
> After hearing Dobbie's story, she turned to John Maloney, the MP for
> Welland, for answers.
> 
> The first response was an e-mail from Maloney's assistant, who wanted
> to give Belfry "some peace of mind" and assured her that agents
> Purple and Orange were only tested in 1966 and 1967 and never on
> humans.
> 
> Belfry, aware the Gagetown spray program dated back to 1956, was angry.
> 
> A later letter from Maloney himself, urging Belfry to have her father
> provide information to a government fact finding mission in Gagetown,
> didn't help.
> 
> "I just felt like, where is my government? Where were they in 1960,
> '70, '80?," she says.
> 
> "They could have said years ago, 'If you lived there or were born
> there, please get yourself checked out.' Or they could have said to
> my father, 'You know, we did this, get yourself checked out.'
> 
> "But they didn't."
> 
> Frustrated with the pace at which answers were coming, Belfry signed
> onto the class-action suit, joining about 120 others -- former
> soldiers, civilian employees and residents of Gagetown.
> 
> Tony Merchant, the lawyer bringing the lawsuit forward, says he isn't
> waiting for the government's inquiries to finish before going to
> court.
> 
> "We are going forward as quickly as possible," he says.
> 
> Representatives from the Department of National Defence declined to
> be interviewed for this story.
> 
> Instead, they referred to several documents about Agent Orange and
> Gagetown on the Canadian Forces web page.
> 
> Those documents say the ongoing probe, which initially was to focus
> on the spraying of agents Orange and Purple, has been expanded.
> 
> According to publicly released statements, the Defence Department is
> looking back at herbicide spraying in Gagetown before 1956.
> 
> "It is also committed to identifying and reporting on facts
> surrounding the use of all herbicides sprayed at Canadian Forces Base
> (CFB) Gagetown from 1952 to present day," said a government news
> release.
> 
> "This approach is based on historic and scientific research that will
> gather a clear and consistent set of facts and allow the Government
> of Canada to make responsible decisions on future action."
> 
> Testing of the soil at the base will begin shortly to try and find
> traces of the defoliants, as will an attempt to track down all
> personnel involved in the spray programs.
> 
> Belfry, who is waiting to see specialists about her health problems,
> says the government needs to find answers quickly.
> 
> "Waiting for another attack of pancreatitis isn't fun," she says. "I
> don't take summer holidays because I am afraid of what might happen
> if I have an attack away from home.
> 
> "The bottom line is, I want answers."



_______________________________________________________

People on this forum like to have facts... 
Fact 1    http://www.basegagetownandareafactfindersproject.ca/  was put online Oct3,2005 and lacks updates when we were told it would have information to allow us to 'see' what is being achieved. Check it out yourselves and ask yourself, Is this communication with the public? The fact-finding project has done nothing to advertise the website or the 1-800 phone # that they are so proud about... 

Fact 2       





> Ms. Karen Ellis: Just to link back, the question that you've just ended on connects back to what a couple of the other members had raised, which is what testing are we doing now. And, the sampling we've done for water, soil, and vegetation in the last couple of months doesn't tell you necessarily what happened 40 years ago or 30 years ago, but it will certainly tell you what's happened in recent years and if there's a cumulative effect from the recent spraying program.


This will take until 2007 to be completed... and the veterans will have to wait til then before a decision is made. this seems strange since the testing is for assertaining IF the area is safe for training at this time.. nothing for 40 years ago. The information is available NOW concerning what occurred at Gagetown yet the government is dragging their feet. At this moment, the Minister of Defense has just said in the House of Commons that the testing information is needed before this 'problem' can be recognized... hmmmmm ??

Fact 3     Minister DVA has just at this moment stated that 





> 14 AgentOrange claims have been approved for DVA pension


14?  I am sure there were more than just 14 claims from just ill or dead BlackWatch members that were with Brig/Gen Sellar at the time of his accepted exposure... 

IMO.. the year of the veteran that our Government has been so excited about was nothing but PR and lip service. The government has participated in 'ClawBacks' from military pensions ( http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/military.pension/
 , has confiscated millions of dollars from the Military pension fund, and have lied and denied the Gagetown spraying for years. Veterans within Canada are treated with less respect than the Government gives criminals... Lately our prisons were given $700,000 to permit prisoners to obtain tatoos as one example.... On Monday, I for one will be cheering as the non-confidence vote is put forward in the House of Commons....


----------



## Sandy Skipton

I am finding it rather facinating that DND staff are being protected from citizens of Canada... in that communications with the staff of our Defense Dept are screened... below is the response received when an email address was requested for Karen Ellis, Assistant Deputy Minister (Infrastructure and Environment)
National Defence.



> Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 10:00 AM
> Subject: Contact request
> 
> Hello Mrs. *******,
> 
> Thank you for contacting the Department of National Defence.
> 
> Would you be able to provide us with more information as to the purpose or your request?  Mrs. Ellis is the Assitant Deputy Minister for Infrastructure and Environment.  If you need to reach her directly, we would be glad to give you her direct email address, provided we know the purpose of your query.
> 
> You may call her office at 613-945-7545.
> 
> Thank you for your cooperation and understanding!
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Dominique Boily
> General Inquiries Officer, ADM (Public Affairs)
> Officier aux renseignements généraux, SMA (Affaires Publiques)
> tél: (613) 996-0255
> fax: (613) 992-4739
> Boily.D@forces.gc.ca




It is also facinating that our Military Members must not see criticism of an MP published in a base paper... A base newspaper says they can not print criticism since to print it would mean the paper agrees with it... don't they know they can add that by printing they are not necessarily agreeing but only keeping Members informed?

I am confused that our DND staff and Military Members need to be protected from citizens that try to use email or base newspapers to inform them of current events... and that THEY can only be exposed to the positive side of a story... I know the Members on this site are not adverse to keeping abreast of current events and even having some good discussion so that many points of view can be observed...


----------



## 3rd Horseman

Miksam,

    Since you have been so critical of me in the past when I posted the truth to counter your view, let me be the first to tell you how the facts specifically the testing results are turning out at Gagetown.
   Thus far the digging up of so called barrels of Agent Orange have turned out to be nothing. No harmful levels of any samples from areas chosen by the vets who claim they saw barrels of AO dumped. Not even a harmful sample from the two areas were agent O was tested. All water samples are clear all soil is clear no barrels found.

Those are the facts.


----------



## MacKenzie1NSH

Is the whole AO contraversy almost over yet? My father remembers when they were disputing that... I don't even know what to beleive, whether it is there or not... :-\


----------



## Sandy Skipton

I am sorry you think I am so critical of you, 3rd Horseman, and thank you for your information. If you information is complete then I am pleased that future members will be safe from chemical exposure. Can you also inform me as to why this information, that you seem to have, will not be released to the public for 18 months? If all is complete, why is the Fact-Finding Project ongoing? Please don't get me wrong cause to have a clean training area is going to be great news, yet it does not change the facts that these chemicals were sprayed and did poison and kill many and did cause many years of suffering.

to answer MacKenzie's question... NO the contraversy is not over. It will continue until the government admits their error and the government still has not accepted any responsibility for what was done even when they are presented with their own documents that show the facts.. It seems science says that the Chemicals are deadly today but for some reason the government still maintains the same chemicals were not deadly when sprayed 30-50 years ago.. Does that make sense?  to know how things are progressing you can check the website for information at http://www.agentorangealert.com/pages/1/index.htm  and select the forum area....


----------



## 3rd Horseman

Those comments are not complete just the preliminary results.

I totally agree with you that some (few I believe) have been harmed by this spray program, all the stories by the vets how they saw this or did that is making all of you loose credibility. The reality is that some of the spray crews are ill and need help and compensation. As for the military that served at Gagetown during the times in question it will be darn hard to show me or anyone that they where sprayed and harmed. As I said before just because DVA gave someone a pension does not mean it was right and now should be valid for all, they made a mistake and opened Pandora's box, how many COs ever went in the field in the 50s none! This the third investigation into the issue will end it once and for all. You should go after the Provincial Government and the parks services and the cities they sprayed it in your back yard school grounds and in the ditches. The amount that was sprayed at Gagetown did not harm anyone more than what was standard in the environment.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

OK now I become critical. You are calling these vets liars?... you are saying Brig/Gen Sellar did not deserve his compensation? You made statement of fact, again, and now you say it is not completed? How can you make statements about something that all the results are not in yet?

(Sarcasm) I am so pleased to be discussing this topic with such an expert. A person with a scientific degree that finds his expertise is such that he can argue proven scientific facts. A person that is in the mix of things that they get preliminary results and from those can quote facts. 

(back to the real world) The BlackWatch Battalion was onsite during the spraying and I am sure it can be agreed that they did not number 'only a few'. These sprayings took place from 56-84, I am sure there were more than 'some' or 'a few' in the area. Back to my complaint of how the government has/is handling this problem. It has nothing to do with the spraying itself, instead it is that the government has lied about facts and tryed to hide facts in an effort to NOT accept any responsibility for ANY that were killed or lost so many years of good health. Once again I say, you will not know until you walk in the shoes of the men that served at that time and instead of portraying youself as an expert please take the time to become educated as to what the facts might teach you.

I sometimes feel a bit disgusted that we are fighting so hard for the protection of members that are now serving and some of them come along and call us liars just as the government has done for years. We served and now are standing to serve again and we do it with pride and HONOUR.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

I feel I owe an apology since sarcasm is not needed... I was lifted up by hearing what I accepted as a positive fact that the tests have shown a chemical free training area... I was so ready to accept that... this morning, to find out it was nothing but a rumour, I was angry and I think that showed in my last post and for that I am sorry...


----------



## armyvern

MIKsam,

The areas tested so far have indeed showed up to be fine. There will be another independant contractor re-testing in the same areas, hopefully he will get the same results. The results from this first round of tests have been released to the media and have been published locally and discussed on the radio. I also watched a story on CBC about the round of tests by the first contractor and the update that two areas identified as possible burial grounds for drums have turned up nothing and testing there has been clean as well. I believe that these are the tests to which 3rd Horseman was referring. 

Much more remains to be done however. Any idea on how many applications DVA has now received from Vets? And how many (besides the late BGen Sellars) that have actually been approved? 

Anyway, my best for a merry Christmas and a wonderful New Year. Here's hoping that the New Year also brings about some definitive results and action for those who have been affected by spraying which occured.


----------



## 3rd Horseman

Thankyou armyvern for the clarification.

To date I believe about 950 claims, it would appear only a handful (11 rings a bell) have been granted  a pension. But I caution all on the meaning of that, since pensions are private we don't know that they were granted for, could be AO could be something else, we only know they were granted. It would be nice to see the DVA wording on the BG Sellers pension, it may not be for AO in Gagetown it could be for AO in Vietnam during the observer mission of the early 70s. Or it could be for something associated with AO in Gagetown. Possibly it is for something completely different but aggravated by field time in Gagetown....? I would suggest printing it, then if it is valid, let all the soldiers of the Black Watch get it because if a CO got it for I would suggest never being near a blade of grass in the area other than to have tea and a sherry while watching the troops exercise then they all should get it. 

  What I do know for fact is that my local neighbours who worked on the spray program are sick, it would appear that illness is associated with long term exposure to the spraying. They worked as mixers and nozzle holders during the project for years. They deserve a close look and IMHO compensation, but the soldiers who drove by the area or walked through it that is a stretch. More of a stretch is those that spent a day visiting from away up on base proper not even in the field making a claim.

  Heres to a resolution of this issue and people who don't know the details calling myself and my friends creators of a cover up and lier's to hide the truth. Instead in time they may say thankyou for always telling the truth about the issue and not covering anything up...{sorry we were wrong} it woud be nice to hear one day.


----------



## dalriada

Hi...

I wanted to clear up a few things.

First of all, the testing program for finding if contamination exists is SERIOUSLY flawed. According to military document A-2004-00207 there are at least 20 dumpsites for the chemical barrels. 

It is stated by DND that they used anywhere between 200 and 700 barrels each summer. The barrels were buried on site where they werre working any particular summer. DND states to the New Brunswick Cabinet that this happened for at least 20 years. Thus, there must be at least 20 dump sites. So why haven't these been identified by the military. 

Another issue is that of the testing for Hexachlorobenzene....THERE ISN'T ANY!!!

If you read document A-2004-00207, which by the way has been verified by the Director of Freedom of Information for DND to be authored by DND, then you will see that of the 1.3 million litres of toxins that were sprayed. 1.1 million of that amount was Hexachlorobenzene. In additon, DND also srayed DRY chemical, in the amount of TWO MILLION POUNDS of Hexachlorobenzene. 

Hexachlorobenzene is a proven Killer. The World Health Organization have listed it as a track one pollutant, meaning that it is carcinogenic and is not only a developmental toxicant but aslo affects many systems in the body such as the blood, bones, endocrine, immune, cirulatory, cardiac, gastrointestinal, neurological systems among other diseases and dysfunctions that it causes. 

You DO NOT HAVE TO BE SPRAYED BY IT. You absorb it through your skin with contact with the soil or affected water. It does not go away. It stays in the environment and travels up the food chain quickly and it migrates through water supplies easily. IT has been found as deep as 45 feet. It will always be there in the soil and in the sediments of the rivers, lakes and streams. 

DND has never uttered the word Hexachlorobenzene because they know that it is a deadly killer and they know that they sprayed almost 20 times more of it than they did of Dioxin. 

Since Hexachlorobenze was sprayed almost 20 times as much as Dioxin, it doesn't take much to understand that this POP (persistant organic pollutant) has severely poisoned the training area. Since the government is not testing for Hexachlorobenzene, none will be found and everyone will go home happy. 

You can't find something if you aren't looking for it. 

Just another example of our DND screwing with the findings. 

The problem is very clear. In a criminal investigation, the criminal is not the one who should be running the investigation.

Since DND is running this entire charade, it begs the question...why is the accused running the investigation???

Kenneth Dobbie
President 
Agent Orange Association of Canada

Post your replies to www.agentorangealert.com so we can all see your opinions.


----------



## 3rd Horseman

If you are going to point out facts get them right.

Hexachlorobenzene was and is not a specific agent that was sprayed at Gagetown as a specific herbicide. It is a by product of the wood and pulp industry that is used as a relatively inert filler in herbicides and insecticides and as a anti fungus agent on farmers seeds. In Gagetowns case it was used by the chem corps as a filler in the herbicide mix that was sprayed. No big conspiracy here unless you want to call the chem corps using it as a filler a conspiracy. You can get exposed to Hexachlorobenzene by burning trash or by using wood products that were sprayed with preservatives, you know your back deck, telephone pole, fence post and last but not least eating fish from rivers and lakes that have been contaminated by the pulp and paper industry....last but not least it is the anti fungus coating on the seeds local farmers use...etc. More Hexachlorobenzene has been placed in the Gagetown environment by the pulp mills and the burning of trash than the base sprayed as a filler product in the herbicide program. 

Hexachlorobenzene breaks down in 2.5 to 7 years unless sprayed in aerosol form were it disappears almost entirely on application.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

whoaaaa Horseman  WHOAAA!!!!!
Good gracious man you are taking this information sharing as a personal attack... Why don't you obtain the document that MrDobbie has mentioned and read it for yourself... MrDobbie put the document ID and its origin in his writeup so anyone can check on the FACTS that he is telling us about. 
As for Hexachlorobenzene  being used as a spray, anyone can do a search online and read that info for themselves as well... and the harmful effects that can occur.
Once again I say that you are calling people liars and scientist liars and just your words do not make you an expert on such topics, it might be a good thing to REALLY learn the facts before opening your *mouth* and displaying a MR-KNOW-IT-ALL, with a lack of knowledge, when documents are given that show the facts... 

On this topic, it is important that we ALL educate ourselves without shooting darts before checking out the data. I have obtained the document and I have read it.... HAVE YOU??


----------



## dalriada

Horseman...

You are the one who had better get your facts straight!!!

You don't have the vaguest idea of what you are talking about. You sound like you have read a farmer's manual on anti-fungicides and the application of Hexachlorobenzene to destroy fungicides in farm crops. 

I have read and extensively studied DND document A-2004-00207. I have studied the sprayings that were done at CFB Gagetown. I have studied documents from the World Health Organization, Health Canada, EPA, Stockholm Convention and so on and so on and so on...

Hexachlorobenzene was a specifc agent used extensively at CFB Gagetown, regardless of what you say and not only were there 1.1 million litres of it sprayed in liquid form, but there was an additonal two million pounds of dry Hexachlorobenzene sprayed during the same time frame of 20 years from 1965 to 1984. It is all in black and white produced by DND. Why don't you do yourself a favour and read it before you further your career as a horse's ass. 

You shouldn't spout off about something you obviously know little about.

 I was there. Were you??? I was poisoned by the stuff. Not only by working with it, but I also had hundreds of exposures over the years by being in contact with the poison. I have been sick for over 30 years. 

My father was there, Sgt in the Cdn 2nd Battalion Black Watch. Prior to that in the British Black Watch, a war hero in the British 8th army, a desert rat with Montgomery against Rommel in North Africa, invasion of Sicily, invasion of Italy, D-Day at swordfish beach, battle of the ardennes, fighting hand to hand in germany against the herman goering troops, liberator of Belsen-Bergen, military police after the war guarding the nuremburg war criminals. He survived hell on earth only to be killed by cancer caused by peacetime sprayings of Dioxin and Hexachlorobenzene.  

Were you there?  If you had been you wouldn't make such stupid and uniformed opinions. 

In the jargon of the sixties, ""get real, man!!!""...because you are definitely on another planet...

Kenneth Dobbie


----------



## McG

> *Public hearings on Agent Orange tests at N.B. base on hold until February*
> Chris Morris, Canadian Press
> Published: January 9, 2006
> 
> FREDERICTON -- A fact-finding mission on the use of Agent Orange and other toxic chemicals at a New Brunswick military base is facing another delay, this time because of the federal election.
> 
> Dennis Furlong, the newly appointed co-ordinator of the federal probe, said Friday that public hearings on spray programs at Canadian Forces Base Gagetown won't be held until February, following the Jan. 23 vote.
> 
> Furlong, who was appointed in November after the previous co-ordinator stepped aside, said it's clear from his initial review of material that there has been misunderstanding and miscommunication about spraying at the sprawling base.
> 
> Furlong said testing of Agent Orange and other toxic herbicides by the U.S. military was limited to only several days in 1966 and 1967. He said most of the public concern appears to be focused on annual herbicide spray programs at the base, which have occurred almost every year since 1956.
> 
> "Although it is called the Agent Orange issue, it is more about the annual herbicide spray which had some of the same chemicals in it as Agent Orange," he said.
> 
> "The implications of the annual spray are far greater than the implications of the testing of the chemical Agent Orange done in a controlled fashion in 1966 and 1967."
> 
> Hundreds of veterans and civilians who live near the base claim their health was harmed by spraying.
> 
> Canadian military officials say the Agent Orange tests were confined to a relatively small and remote area at Gagetown and lasted only a few days. Those tests have been common knowledge since the early 1980s.
> 
> Veterans and concerned residents have complained about the length of time the federal probe is taking. It's expected the inquiry will take at least another year and a half.
> 
> Gloria Sellar of Kingston, Ont., who says her husband died from complications related to Agent Orange exposure while stationed at Gagetown in the 1960s, said people are suffering and dying while Ottawa takes its time.
> 
> "It's a pity, but of course they have been in denial for a long time," she said of federal officials.
> 
> "They are looking for remnants of barrels and things at the base, but the fact is the soldiers who were there are the remnants and they need help urgently."
> 
> Sellar's husband, Gordon, died of leukemia shortly after he received medical compensation for exposure to Agent Orange.
> 
> The results of the inquiry, which will include an examination of health trends in areas around the military base, will guide Ottawa in deciding pension and compensation claims.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

This is a bit political but also follows this thread... I did say I would keep this thread informed of up-dates

DVA has rejected my husbands claim of exposure to chemicals sprayed at CFB Gagetown(letter dated Jan12), which has not surprised me... BlackWatch members, that have no problem proving they were located in Gagetown during the spraying of chemicals are also receiving rejections. My only comment is that I am seeing DVA clearing off their desks, sending rejections and preparing to start off the new government with a clean slate. Well, those desks are NOT clean. The ghosts of claims will haunt DVA for a very long time and meanwhile tax dollars will be gobbled up as all these rejection letters lead so many into the appeal phase. 

In the rejection letter I received, it is noted that the government is still steadfastly holding to 7 days of spraying during Jun66 and Jun67.


> Based on information provided by the Department of National Defense, it is known that small scale testing of defoliants, including Agent Orange, was carried out for very short periods at CFB Gagetown in June 1966 and June 1967


It would seem that DND has not fully informed DVA by including ALL information concerning these sprayings.
DVA also noted that my husbands files do not show him as being posted in CFB Gagetown but show instead that he was posted in CFB Chatham during the times listed on his claim. hmmmmm?.. They were told that on his claim!

Point being that his claim was submitted over a year ago and any information that is covered in the rejection letter was known since mid Jun2005 when DND was pushed to admit that spraying occurred. (DND did choose to only accept Jun66 Jun67 as they attempted to limit the fallout of this disaster). I guess the rejection letter took 6 months to write. Having said that and having knowledge of other rejection letters, it appears that DVA are using a preprepared form letter with a couple fo paragraphs modified to fit each person. 400 claims(at last count), 4 accepted - 2 (it seems 2 claims were for members that actually served in Vietnam) shows that DND&DVA have not intended to take this matter seriously, in my opinion.

Hopefully a new government will actually work together to acknowledge those that served their country and were poisoned and killed by those they served. I know I intend to take advantage of all appeals available. My husband, along with MANY others,  deserve respect not rejection by the country they served...


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11037756/
Court rules against U.S. firms on Agent Orange
S. Korea court orders companies to pay $62M over Vietnam War-era use
  
Updated: 5:50 a.m. ET Jan. 26, 2006
SEOUL, South Korea - A South Korean court on Thursday ordered two U.S. manufacturers of the defoliant Agent Orange to pay $62 million in medical compensation to South Korean veterans of the Vietnam War and their families.

The Seoul High Court ordered Dow Chemical in Midland, Mich., and Monsanto Company in St. Louis to pay the compensation to about 6,800 people. It was the first time a South Korean court has ruled in favor of victims of Agent Orange.
“It is acknowledged ... the defendants failed to ensure safety as the defoliants manufactured by the defendants had higher levels of dioxins than standard,” the court said in its ruling.

South Koreans made up the largest foreign contingent of U.S. allies fighting in Vietnam, contributing some 320,000 troops. South Korea lost 5,077 soldiers and suffered 10,962 wounded.
South Koreans, Vietnamese and many U.S. veterans blame a variety of illnesses on exposure to Agent Orange, including miscarriages, birth defects, cancers and nervous disorders.
Official U.S. records show the U.S. military sprayed 19 million gallons of herbicide over southern Vietnam between 1962 and 1971 to destroy jungle cover for communist troops. About 55 percent of that was Agent Orange.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

> JAN 30, 2006
> CBC NEWS, FREDERICTON (1808 - 2:30)
> 
> Citizens investigating chemical use at CFB Gagetown
> CBC: A group of citizens is now part of a team investigating the use
> of chemicals at CFB Gagetown. The federal government has started
> looking into who may have been exposed over the years, what was
> sprayed where and the possible health effects. The citizens will
> serve on advisory panels overseeing the investigations. Don Dickson
> has more.
> 
> DON DICKSON (Reporter): This was the first chance for eight citizens
> who will serve on two advisory panels to find out exactly what's
> expected of them and how they can help answer questions about
> chemical spraying on Base Gagetown and who may have been hurt by it.
> 
> KAREN ELLIS (DND deputy-minister): But what we thought would be
> useful would be to have some people with different types of
> expertise on the advisory panels who can really ask us questions as
> we brief on the tasks and sometimes people can bring insights or
> questions or say, 'Have you thought of this? Have you thought of
> that?' so that we can be flexible and open throughout the process.
> And if some interesting questions are brought to bear we might be
> able to make some adjustments to the task to make sure they really
> get us what we need.
> 
> DICKSON: The Department of Defence deputy-minister Karen Ellis co-
> chairs the fact-finding task force with former New Brunswick Health
> Minister Dr. Dennis Furlong. Initial concerns about spraying on the
> base focused on the testing of Agent Orange in the 1960's but now
> the focus is on any chemicals used on the base dating back to the
> early 1950's.
> 
> DR. DENNIS FURLONG (Fact-finding co-chair): Yes, there's lots of
> information. It's like a supermarket, there's lots of food in there
> but you still have to go shopping.
> 
> DICKSON: That's Furlong's answer to those who complain the
> investigation is taking too long when much information is already
> available in government documents.
> 
> WAYNE CARDINAL (Veteran): And this was a challenge that was there
> and I said it was time that the...my fellow soldiers and civilians
> who were exposed to this had somebody fighting for them.
> 
> DICKSON: Veteran Wayne Cardinal is on an advisory panel. He's on
> medication for numerous conditions he believes may be linked to his
> duty on the base in the 1960's.
> 
> CARDINAL: I must admit I've been impressed so far with everything
> that's went on. I really feel they are trying to do the correct
> political thing for both the people and the military involved,
> answer the questions, get it done and just make sure that something
> of this larger scale---and people do not realize how large a scale
> this is---doesn't happen again.
> 
> CBC: The investigation is focused on soldiers and civilian employees
> of the base but part of the investigation is centered on health
> matters and Dr. Furlong says that could come up with information
> suggesting the exposure of off-base civilians as well.
> 
> Don Dickson, CBC News, Fredericton.





> Agent Orange promises by Stephen Harper
> CBC: On the East coast, people exposed to Agent Orange at CFB
> Gagetown are hopeful again that they'll be compensated for some
> after decades of waiting. The committee looking into the spray of
> the toxic herbicide is back at work. But even more encouraging are
> the promises of Canada's new Prime Minister Stephen Harper. Sarah
> Trainer has more.
> 
> REPORTER: On the campaign trail, Conservative leader Stephen Harper,
> made a specific promise for CFB Gagetown. A week and a half before
> the election Harper pledges free medical testing for veterans who
> believe they were hurt by herbicide spraying at the base, and he had
> this promise for those exposed to defoliant spraying.
> 
> STEPHEN HARPER: The Conservative government will stand up for full
> and fair compensation for persons exposed to defoliant spraying
> during the period from 1956 to 1984. We'll disclose all information
> concerning the spraying to veterans and civilians.
> 
> REPORTER: Dennis Furlong is leading the investigation of herbicide
> use at CFB Gagetown. He says the fact finding process is committed
> to openness.
> 
> DENNIS FURLONG: The whole process is to instill into the people of
> Canada and the people of the area that the skepticism that was
> surrounding this historically will be allayed because of the
> openness and the independence of my office to try to get the answers
> necessary.
> 
> REPORTER: In light of Harper's promise for compensation to all those
> exposed to herbicide spraying, Furlong was asked whether his
> committee's work will change. He has decided to adopt a wait and see
> strategy. Furlong says there are plans to brief the new defence
> minister on the task force progress and they'll find out at that
> point how much work is left to do.
> 
> Sarah Trainor, CBC News, CFB Gagetown.



HURRY HURRY after 6 months they have to hurry so they can brief the new Minister of Defense with information showing they have done something... Meetings are once again scheduled for February and I am awaiting info on the expertise they have on their citizens advisory council. Being a member of the AOAC (AgentOrangeAssociation of Canada), I have not heard of any of our members being approached to be included. This is still not an open and 'transparent' investigation, With a Deputy Minister of Defense as co-chair, it is still under the control of DND and much data will remain hidden. That is my opinion... Sandy/MIKsam


----------



## Sandy Skipton

> FEB 01, 2006
> CTV NEWS, MARITIMES (1817 - 3:00)
> 
> 
> 
> The spraying of herbicides at CFB Gagetown
> 
> CTV: Prime Minister-designate Stephen Harper will be sworn in as
> Canada's 22nd prime minister next Monday and that has some Maritime
> military veterans hopeful that their long fight is going to near an
> end. The veterans want answers about herbicide use at CFB Gagetown
> and compensation for exposure to the deadly chemicals. CTV's Andy
> Campbell has the very latest.
> 
> ANDY CAMPBELL: Wayne Cardinal is one of thousands of veterans who say
> exposure to defoliants has made him sick. Cardinal is a retired
> soldier who spent much of his career at CFB Gagetown where herbicides
> containing deadly dioxins were used to kill vegetation. He's
> confident the incoming prime minister will live up to a campaign
> promise to provide answers and compensation.
> 
> WAYNE CARDINAL (Veteran): There is enough information out there now
> that some of this stuff could be fast-tracked to a certain level and
> if he puts it through council and handles it right I think, I truly
> think they'll do that.
> 
> CAMPBELL: On January 11 during a campaign rally in Woodstock Harper
> made a commitment former Gagetown soldiers and their families had
> been waiting months to hear.
> 
> STEPHEN HARPER (During the campaign): A Conservative government will
> stand up for full and fair compensation for persons exposed to
> defoliant spraying during the period of 1956 to 1984.
> 
> CAMPBELL: Harper also promised to disclose details of the spraying
> program. It was enough to bring John Chisholm to tears. He' s hoping
> Harper's promise means an immediate change in Veterans Affairs
> policies that have frustrated Chisholm and others for years, policies
> that have put the onus of proof on the veterans,
> 
> JOHN CHISHOLM (Veteran): We know you were there but how do you
> associate the spraying with where you're at now even though we know
> you're sick?
> 
> 
> CAMPBELL: Chisholm is expecting action soon. He says something should
> happen within a matter of weeks of Harper and the Conservatives
> officially taking control in Ottawa. Chisholm says Harper's promise
> was only a step and he'll be doing everything he can to ensure that
> pledge becomes reality.
> 
> CHISHOLM: I'll be just like a thorn in his side until such time that
> we're compensated because we're not going to let go.
> 
> CAMPBELL: And veterans from this area will meet the Conservative Greg
> Thompson, the MP for New Brunswick Southwest tomorrow before he heads
> off to Ottawa for the official change of power on Monday and Peter,
> there's widespread speculation here and in Ottawa that because of
> Thompson's work on the defoliant spray file that he is the odds-on
> candidate to become the next Minister of Veterans Affairs.
> 
> CTV: Thank you Andy.
> 
> CAMPBELL: You're welcome.
> 
> CTV: CTV's Andy Campbell live tonight from Fredericton.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

I have noticed that this thread is well read.. and I thank you all for this.. so an update is in order

This past week has been uplifting for those of us that are involved with this problem. 
I am pleased that Greg Thompson was assigned the position of Minister of Veterans Affairs, since he is close enough to the people that were affected that he has an expansive understanding of the problem.

There is now a panel of selected persons, with knowledge that can push the investigation forward, that has been added to help look into all areas and stand up for the citizens. I have just heard that Gloria Sellar, wife of affected Brig/Gen Sellar, is one of the selected panel members.

Both of these encouraging events will be watched closely but I expect we will step forward, in baby steps of course... It is almost 1yr since the first media release and it is much more than a year since I first became openly involved but today I feel I can finally smile... 

btw I am still searching for the information outlined in the first post of this thread....


----------



## Sandy Skipton

> *Agent Orange inquiry changes hands in Ottawa; Prime minister moves probe to Veterans Affairs from National Defence *
> 
> 
> The new Conservative government is putting its own stamp on the inquiry into the herbicide spraying program at CFB Gagetown in New Brunswick.
> 
> Prime Minister Stephen Harper has moved responsibility for the file from Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor to Veterans Affairs Minister Greg Thompson.
> 
> The government has also abandoned its policy to restrict any compensation for health damages to the 1966 and 1967 sprays of Agent Orange. It now accepts that there may be health effects from exposure to the annual herbicide spray program over the past 50 years.
> 
> "The government of Canada now accepts that this annual spray happened as of course differentiated from the Agent Orange testing," said Dennis Furlong, the co-ordinator for the fact-finding and outreach initiative.
> 
> "The current process as the prime minister said is about full and fair compensation so I guess we need to get that information to the government as fast as possible so that full and fair compensation can be defined and subsequently carried out."
> 
> Thompson, the MP for New Brunswick Southwest and the new regional minister for New Brunswick, was a critic of the panel established by the former Liberal government. He said it was too slow and too limited.
> 
> Furlong, who met Thompson Monday, said he was pleased with the shifts.
> "This file moving over to veterans affairs to a minister that had an interest in it all along will probably drive the agenda a little faster," Furlong said.
> 
> "Minister Thompson has said he wants this file to move as rapidly as possible and he is going to try to do that at his end, and of course we have to try to do things as rapidly as possible at this end."
> 
> Furlong said the minister of national defence is preoccupied with many files, none more important than the peace making mission in Afghanistan, so he has less time to follow the inquiry into the herbicide program at CFB Gagetown. The minister of veterans affairs has more time to devote to the issue. Furlong wants the inquiry to terminate in mid-2007.
> 
> "I think we can make it."
> While Furlong expressed satisfaction in the mandate of his mission, he said he is finding bureaucratic hurdles that can cause delays. For example, government regulations require that a proposed survey of the health of people who worked at CFB Gagetown over the past 50 years must be preceded by a privacy impact study. This initial study is to ensure that the subsequent health survey does not breach the privacy rights of participants.
> 
> "One of my requests when we started this was to try to move it as fast as possible and of course moving it fast inside the bureaucracy of the federal government is tough. It is not because anybody is not doing their job. It is just that things are slow-moving."
> 
> The public hearing phase of the inquiry is winding down. There was a meeting in Welsford last night (FEB 16), one tonight in Hoyt and a final public hearing in Oromocto Feb. 23.
> 
> Between 150,000 and 200,000 people may have come in contact with the herbicide spray program on CFB Gagetown between 1956 and the present. The chemicals used in the spray are linked to diseases such as cancer.
> 
> The inquiry is making good progress on the three "tasks" the former government assigned to it.
> The first task was a review of all the Department of National Defence personnel records; the second was a review of the spray programs and their impact on the environment; and the third was a health study on the effects of the herbicide and a comparison of the health status of those living on or near the base to a similar group of Canadians from elsewhere


----------



## Sandy Skipton

> Advocate called to conference
> 
> Sun, February 26, 2006
> 
> By JOE MATYAS, FREE PRESS REPORTER
> 
> 
> 
> A London advocate for Canadian victims of Agent Orange has been invited to an international conference on the harm done by the military use of toxic chemical defoliants.
> 
> "The invitation is a recognition that our cause is part of a global story about Agent Orange and similar chemicals," said Art Connolly.
> 
> "It recognizes that veterans and civilians have been harmed by exposure to these deadly chemicals in both war and peace."
> 
> The Vietnam Association of Victims of Agent Orange, based in New York City, invited Connolly to the conference in Hanoi March 28 and 29. Connolly will represent the Agent Orange Association of Canada.
> 
> Delegates from Australia, Korea and New Zealand are expected to attend, along with American and Vietnamese civilians and veterans, Connolly said.
> 
> The U.S. organization's website says tens of thousands of American soldiers and three million Vietnamese were harmed by agents Orange, Blue, Green, Pink, Purple and White, all of which contained dioxin, "the most toxic chemical known to science."
> 
> They were widely used during the Vietnam war.
> 
> "They were basically the same chemicals in different mixtures, with dioxin being a key ingredient," Connolly said.
> 
> In Canada, about 1,000 people have expressed interest in joining a class-action lawsuit against the federal government in relation to the use of the defoliants at Canadian Forces Base Gagetown from 1956 to 1984.
> 
> The suit was filed last July. A court ruling on whether it can be pursued as a class action is expected in May, Connolly said.
> 
> The suit claims defoliant spraying caused widespread harm to the environment, military personnel and civilians.
> 
> Access to information research revealed 72,400 hectares of New Brunswick forest was sprayed with 1.3 million litres of liquid dioxins and hexachlorobenzenes and a million kilograms of dry chemicals, Connolly said.
> 
> As a result, "hundreds, possibly thousands of people" died or suffered serious illnesses because of chemical poisoning, the suit alleges.
> 
> Connolly said about 200,000 Canadian Forces personnel were stationed at Gagetown during the 28 years in question.
> 
> Connolly, whose father was a career military man, lived at Oromocto on the base with his family from 1962 to 1969.
> 
> Connolly's father suffered multiple health problems, his youngest brother died of Reye's syndrome at age seven, his mother lost her stomach to cancer and his sister, Patty, died at 27 of a pulmonary embolism.
> 
> "I'm the only healthy one," Connolly said. "I guess that was so I could speak for them and for others like them."
> 
> The Agent Orange Association of Canada was granted status as a non-profit corporation this month.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

Preliminary results of Dioxin testing at CFB Gagetown has caused the the Base Commander to limit access to two sections of its ranges and training areas as a precautionary measure. These are the Clones and Murphy bivouac areas. Elevated levels were also found in the Ripon Road area. The limited access is to protect those at Gagetown at this time.... 

Gosh, I wonder what the levels might have been 40 years ago... and all the time inbetween??   They say a full report will be released at the end of March or into April.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

While Canadians wait  and wait to hear news about what might be done concerning the toxic chemical exposure at CFB Gagetown, the American VA moves ahead to show concern about their militia. http://www.me.ngb.army.mil/Agents/AO%20IP%20%20MAP.pdf

This is very disheartening since we have been told that the report, on the studies being done, will not even get to our government until NEXT summer... even with the tests that verify our stories we are still second class citizens. Please note that the Americans moved ahead with just knowing that the chemicals 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T had been sprayed, I sure wonder what they will do when they learn that Arsenic, Hexachlorobenzene, Tordon and oh so many others were also sprayed for many years. Our government knows it but they seem to NOT be sharing the info with other countries that want to help their victims... such a shame


----------



## Mike Bobbitt

This is slightly off topic, but may be of interest anyway. As I was reading through this thread, I saw several times that Tordon was sprayed in Gagetown up to 1984. Here's an example:



			
				MIKsam said:
			
		

> In 1965, for a number of factors, one being the spray accident, secondly because the military were not satisfied with the kill ratio of Agent Orange, they switched to using Tordon 101 for the next twenty (20) years until 1984.
> 
> Tordon 101 is Agent White, which contained 2,4-D, plus Picloram in a 4:1 ratio. The deadly part of this mix was Picloram, which contained Hexachlorobenzene (HCB).



I know first hand that Tordon was sprayed in Gagetown as late as 1993, because I was (accidentally) sprayed with it. To summarize, our Phase III (Infantry) platoon patrolled into an area that was clearly marked with signs indicating a Tordon spray. (Unfortunately as candidates, we were at the mercy of the DS on hand who dictated that the patrol route would not change.) Sure enough, the sign was accurate, because shortly after entering the area   a chopper flew over and sprayed us. If you can believe it, some guys actually ate blueberries while they waited in the ORV, and subsequently ended up in the MIR. (Call me paranoid, but I wasn't touching a thing - well, except for crawling through the grass, pepper potting, etc. )

I'm not trying to cause a panic or spread rumour. My motivation for posting is to better understand the situation. Specifically, this post caught my eye:



			
				dalriada said:
			
		

> TORDON 101 was sprayed in CFB Gagetown from 1965 to 1984 inclusive and according to the FoI document that I have, our government sprayed close to a milllion liters of the stuff and it was the pre 1988 version which is understood to be 25 times more toxic, thus the concern.
> 
> TORDON 101 is Agent White.



It sounds like the "post 1988" Tordon is much less lethal. In fact, I recall that the warning signs indicated Tordon-7 (or possibly Tordon-5) but certainly not Tordon-101. I should dig up my old FMP as I recall writing down the date, grid and text from the warning sign. I hope I still have it! At any rate, I'll try to dig up info on the variants of Tordon, but if anyone has info/advice, I'd love to hear it.


Cheers
Mike


----------



## The Six

:tank:

Suggested reading:  http://veterans.iom.edu,,,,Health of Veterans & Deployed Forces (Vietnam War)

It's tough to think of anything being sprayed as dangerous if nobody immediately drops dead...it never bothered me...but now we have to sensitize our young soldiers to potential risks.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

> at 14:16 on March 24, 2006, EST.
> 
> MONCTON, N.B. (CP) - People exposed to toxic chemicals at a New
> Brunswick army base are closer to being compensated by the federal
> government.
> 
> Prime Minister Stephen Harper said Friday he's asked Veterans Affairs
> Minister Greg Thompson to look into the issue and come up with a
> proposal. "I know he's undertaken that work promptly," Harper told
> reporters during a visit to this New Brunswick city.
> 
> "Cabinet has yet to deal with the issue, but I assume it will in due
> course."
> 
> Thompson said he expects to have a plan developed for the fall
> sitting of cabinet.
> 
> "That's our plan. It's well underway and we're working on it
> vigorously," Thompson said.
> 
> Harper promised during the election campaign that a Conservative
> government would offer full and fair compensation to persons exposed
> to defoliant spraying at CFB Gagetown during the period from 1956 to
> 1984.
> 
> He said the Tories would disclose all information concerning the
> spraying to veterans and civilians, and provide medical testing to
> any person who may have been exposed.
> 
> Dozens of people say they have become sick with cancer and other
> illnesses they believe were triggered by the U.S. military testing of
> Agent Orange and other powerful herbicides at the New Brunswick base.
> 
> Dioxin, the toxic component of the sprays, was banned in the early
> 1980s.


----------



## Big Foot

Source for that, MIKsam?


----------



## Sandy Skipton

There are several sources.. one of which is 

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=f6f3688f-bd25-4e5e-8da7-9ff15ec2b05f&k=56987

I would like to thank reporter Louise Elliott for her CBC coverage and mentioning the civilians, the years that are involved and that there are thousands of us waiting for this. She has done a great job for ALL of us by bringing this to the public...


----------



## Sandy Skipton

The Vice-President of AOAC (AgentOrangeAssociation of Canada), Mr Art Connolly, was chosen to speak at the Internation Conference, concerning AgentOrange and chemical exposures, which he attended as the Canadian representative... He was well received although the main thing that stood out was that Canada had no media or Governmental representation present... The International Conference now recognizes 'Gagetown Canada' as a point of exposure... 

http://www.vnagency.com.vn/NewsA.asp?LANGUAGE_ID=2&CATEGORY_ID=29&NEWS_ID=192748



> Int'l conference appeals justice for AO victims
> 03/29/2006 -- 20:36(GMT+7)
> 
> Ha Noi (VNA) - Governments, international and national organizations, and non-government organizations are urged to provide material and spiritual support for victims of Agent Orange/dioxin in Viet Nam.
> 
> The appeal was released in Ha Noi at the end of the March 28-29 International Conference of Victims of AO/dioxin.
> 
> Following is the full text of the appeal:
> 
> "We, victims of Agent Orange and other toxic chemicals, together with supporters and scientists from Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Great Britain, New Zealand, the Republic of Korea, Russia, the United States and Viet Nam participating in the International Conference of Victims of AO/dioxin (ICVA) held in Ha Noi, Viet Nam on March 28-29, 2006, make the following appeal to the international community:
> 
> "We have discussed the effects of Agent Orange contaminated with dioxin (AO/dioxin) and other toxic chemicals on the life and health, and the sufferings of those affected. Based on this exchange of views, we unanimously confirm the following:
> 
> 1. During the war waged in Viet Nam, the US chemical companies manufactured and supplied millions of litres of toxic chemicals disguised as defoliants or herbicides. Those chemicals contained high levels of dioxin. They were an utterly lethal substance.
> 
> 2. Those toxic chemicals destroyed the environment, millions of acres of forests, leading to an imbalanced ecology, great loss of timber resources and the disappearance of several annual species as well as precious forest vegetation. As a consequence, natural disasters, such as flood, erosion and drought have become more common and thus impacting severely on agriculture, the main source of subsistence for South Vietnamese residents.
> 
> 3. However, the worst effect of those toxic chemicals is the harm to human life and health of those exposed to them. Victims of AO/dioxin and other toxic chemicals consists of:
> 
> a. Million of Vietnamese living in their homes and members of the liberation armed forces, and those working for the former Sai Gon regime and armed forces, an ally of the US at that time. Various investigations and scientific studies (frequently with participation of foreign and American scientists) have demonstrated that Vietnamese victims have suffered a variety of serious diseases - even far more and worse than the dioxin-related diseases listed by the US National Academy of Sciences Institute of Medicine between 1994 and 1995. In addition, many female victims have experienced reproductive problems. Many of them have been deprived of the ability to bear children and to experience the joy of being a mother. The most painful effect, however, is that AO/dioxin has already harmed the next generation of children and will do the same to the following ones. Many children have been born without the experience of war but have deformed bodies and can never enjoy the simplest experience of happiness - that is to live as an ordinary human being.
> 
> For the above-said reasons, victims of AO/dioxin and their families are among the poorest and most unhappy of the society. Many thousands of victims have died without justice for themselves and their families.
> 
> The fact that there are large numbers of Vietnamese victims suffering from various kinds of serious diseases, is understandable for they have been living in areas sprayed by AO/dioxin.
> 
> b. Many thousands of soldiers and officers from the United States, the Republic of Korea, Australia, Canada and New Zealand were also contaminated by AO/dioxin while involved in the Viet Nam war. They have consequently suffered many serious diseases, which also caused enormous sufferings to their loved ones. Several countries have recognized the health effects of AO/dioxin and other toxic chemicals and paid for medical and other treatments for affected veterans. Nevertheless, many still do not have these entitlements and still have to fight for recognition, compensation and justice.
> 
> c. Apart from those affected by AO/dioxin in Viet Nam, many in *Gagetown * (Canada) and other countries also connect their illnesses with the use of AO/dioxin. Their conditions are similar to those of Vietnamese and other victims and they have therefore participated in this international conference of victims of AO/dioxin so as to express their solidarity with the affected people and their struggle for justice.
> 
> The contamination by AO/dioxin and other toxic chemicals has led to the poor physical health and death of many, loss of family happiness, a life of poverty and deprivation for deformed children, and absence of support in times of sickness and old age.
> 
> 4. We utterly dispute the conclusion reached by Judge Jack Weinstein who dismissed the Vietnamese victims' lawsuit without paying respect to justice and the obvious realities in Viet Nam.
> 
> 5. We, victims of AO/dioxin and our supporters affirm our commitment to working in solidarity, regardless of race or political belief, and demand that the US chemical companies pay compensation equal to their liability, as stipulated by law.
> 
> 6. We strongly support the lawsuit filed by the Vietnamese AO/dioxin victims till their final victory in their fight for justice.
> 
> We congratulate the initial success of Republic of Korean victims and will continue to support them until their final victory. We support the fight for justice of the Viet Nam veterans of the United States, Australia and New Zealand.
> 
> 7. We demand that the United States Government be held responsible for making contributions to overcoming the consequences of toxic chemicals.
> 
> 8. We call upon governments of Republic of Korea, Australia, New Zealand and the United States to adopt appropriate policies towards victims of their respective countries and also support the victims in Viet Nam.
> 
> 9. We call upon governments, international and national organizations, and non-government organizations to provide material and spiritual support for victims of AO/dioxin in Viet Nam and help the country overcome the heavy aftermath of the toxic chemical.
> 
> "The pain and sufferings are not a single individual’s.
> 
> "This struggle for justice is for the entire world, for future generations, and for our peaceful and healthy planet earth."-Enditem


----------



## Sandy Skipton

Below is a speech delivered at an international agent orange conference held in Hanoi Vietnam on March 28, 29 2006. It was presented by Art Connolly Vice President Agent Orange Association of Canada. 
(Reference     www.agentorangealert.com )
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My name is Art Connolly and I am Vice President of the Agent Orange Association of Canada. I am honoured and I thank you for the opportunity to attend this conference and share Canada’s story regarding the poisoning of so many of its people by chemical defoliants.

In May and June of 2005, the Canadian media reported that the chemical defoliant agent orange was "tested" by the U.S. military at Canadian Forces Base Gagetown New Brunswick, Canada.

At the invitation of the Canadian government the U.S.military tested Agent Orange, along with other chemical defoliants, in order to determine their effectiveness for use in Vietnam. Canada’s Department of National Defence cooperated with the U.S military to test the defoliant’s effectiveness for its own brush control use in Canada. 

Canadian Forces Base Gagetown at 1100 sq. kms is the largest military base in the British Commonwealth and officials argue that control of its dense vegetation is necessary to prevent it from being ignited by unexploded ordinance.

According to Assistant Deputy Minister of National Defence Karen Ellis, only two barrels of the toxic defoliant "agent orange" were sprayed "under carefully controlled conditions" on 83 acres of land for a total of 7 days in 1966 and 1967. 

Assistant Deputy Minister Ms. Ellis did not reveal that in the summer of 1966 the military also used the chemical defoliant Agent Purple. Agent Purple contained more than three times the level of lethal dioxin as Agent Orange. It was also laced with arsenic. Agent Purple is considered so harmful that the American military stopped its use in Vietnam, one year earlier, in 1965. 

Documentation obtained from Canada’s Department of National Defence via the "Access To Information Act" shows that Ms. Ellis’ statement was lacking in its disclosure regarding herbicidal spraying at CFB Gagetown. 

The document proves that from 1956 to 1984 there was over 1.3 million litres of liquid defoliants and 2 million lbs of dry chemical defoliants containing deadly dioxin and hexachlorobenzene were sprayed over 181,000 acres at CFB Gagetown. 

Dioxin is considered to be the most dangerous substance known to science. Dioxin poisoning has been linked to a number of serious health conditions, including skin disorders, nerve disorders, type 2 diabetes and numerous cancers. Dioxin is a human carcinogen that can damage the liver, thyroid, intestinal track and nervous system. Dioxin is fat -soluble and therefore can be passed up the food chain from animals to humans. There is no method for removing dioxin from the body. It is important to note that dioxins have a half-life of five to 10 years. 

In 1964 while the DND was administering its herbicidal spray program there was a "spray application accident." Increased winds carried the spray to the Upper Gagetown and Sheffield area. The results of that accident was that the Government of Canada paid approximately $250,000 to several market gardens in the area as reparation for the damage to their crops. Many believe it was monies paid to silence the farmers and an admission of liability. According to local news reports "spray application accidents" occurred on a regular basis. In 1965, for a number of reasons, one being the spray accident, DND switched to spraying "Tordon 101" for the next 20 years, until 1984. "Tordon 101" is what the Americans called Agent White. It contained picloram and 2,4-D in a 4:1 ratio. The picloram contained an inert agent called hexachlorobenzene that has been identified by both the U.S. Agency for Toxic Substances and the World Health Organization as being a persistent bio-accumulative toxin that causes cancer. 

The Environmental Protection Agency has established that hexachlorobenzene harms the liver, kidneys, blood, and lungs and the nervous, immune, and gastrointestinal systems. Yet for 20 years DND sprayed this deadly poison on the training area, where human contact was inevitable. 

According to the U.S. EPA website, "Because Hexachlorobenzene...is persistent and bioaccumulative, it stays in our environment for a long time and contaminates our food chain. Hexachlorobenzene can cause severe health problems for humans...." It damages bones, kidneys, and blood cells. It can harm the immune system. It lowers the survival rate of young children. It can cause abnormal fetal development. It harms the liver and the endocrine and nervous systems, and it may cause cancer.

In 1985 in a briefing to members of the province of New Brunswick Cabinet, Major Mike Rushton admitted the government knew about and was concerned by dioxin and therefore decided not to use it after 1964. Yet the Department of National Defence knowingly used it as an ingredient in 8 of the tests conducted at CFB Gagetown in 1966 and 1967.

As this story drew more media attention in the months following its original release the Canadian public started questioning and demanding answers from the then governing federal Liberal Party government of Canada.

Response from the Department of National Defence and the Government of Canada has been less than forthcoming. DND has been notoriously reluctant to admit anything regarding the use of chemical defoliants. They tend to admit only what has been revealed by other sources. DND and the federal government would not acknowledge the spray program outside of 1966 and 1967 even though their very own documents prove that the spraying occurred.

According to the Department of National Defence there were 200,000 military personnel at CFB Gagetown from 1956 to 1984. This figure includes troops from Britain, Scotland and the United States have trained at CFB Gagetown. 

This tragedy is not only about the soldiers who have had their health affected. It is also about the soldier’s spouses and children who have died or are sick. It is about the civilian employees and their spouses and children who have died or are sick. It is about the civilians who lived in the area and their spouses and children who have died or are sick.

It is important to realize that the military base was not merely a location for military activities. Soldiers and families engaged in activities on the base such as berry and apple picking, hunting, trout fishing and drinking from streams. Thousands of children and wives were exposed to and poisoned by dioxin and hexachlorobenzene over a period of almost four decades.

For the Canadian government to say families were not exposed to the defoliation chemicals in any way is not only *a callous dismissal of fact, but also a heinous lie*, and it infuriates and frustrates the people who were there and who are sick.

DND records reveal that spraying frequently took place in relatively close proximity to surrounding communities. Distances ranged from 1 to 7 kilometres. 

The Department of National Defence and the Government of Canada are not being truthful and forthright about this tragedy. It has been proven that DND sprayed deadly dioxins and hexachlorobenzene-laced defoliant from 1956 to 1984 at Gagetown. DND did not volunteer this information. DND did not take the opportunity to divulge information about the other defoliants when first questioned about Agent Orange. DND was NOT transparent in any sense of the word.

DND is now asking the world to believe it is being honest and up front. DND's previous actions have spoken much louder than its present-day words. Based on DND’s past actions those who are sick and those who have lost loved ones will NEVER believe them. The public will NEVER believe the effort being put forth to resolve the situation as long as DND is leading that effort. DND has no credibility in the eyes of the sick, the survivors, and now the general public

In answer to the outcry from the public the Government of Canada has created the Base Gagetown and Area Fact Finders Project. The project is led by the Department of National Defence. This begs the question why is this investigation being led by the accused?

This project is being presented as a public inquiry. It is not a public inquiry! It has no legal authority to subpoena or protect any witnesses that come forward to offer evidence.

The Project has two key responsibilities. The first is to be a conduit of information between those with concerns and the Government of Canada. The project is to hear the concerns of the community, ensure those concerns are communicated to both government and those completing the fact-finding tasks, and is to inform the community about the fact-finding work being conducted for the government.

The second responsibility is that the Coordinator of the project will provide a report to the Government of Canada through the Minister of National Defence documenting his discussions with people, including some personal comments. The Coordinator is not permitted to offer recommendations but is to merely submit facts to the federal government. This report will be an important consideration in subsequent policy decisions made by the Government of Canada. 

It is the opinion of the Agent Orange Association of Canada that this project is merely a public relations exercise put in place by the federal government to appease the public.

The Fact Finder Project has 3 tasks:

*Fact-finding Task 1 will seek to identify and contact, former and current serving Canadian Forces' members, and former and current civilian employees of the Department of National Defence (DND) who were present at CFB Gagetown during the spraying of the herbicides in question. Greg Thompson, the present day Minister of Veteran Affairs, has stated "The government has those records now and could actually release those in an afternoon"*

The Agent Orange Association of Canada notes that there is no mention of the spouses and children of soldiers, civilian employees and no mention of civilian neighbours. Civilian employees are advised that they must apply for Workers Compensation benefits. Spouses, children and civilians are left to leave their fate with the courts. This "divide and conquer" response by the government has not gone unnoticed by the victims and families. The government’s response is *offensive and insulting * to those not recognized. Consequently a class action lawsuit has been instigated and is being led by the prestigious Canadian law firm The Merchant Law Group.

*Fact-finding Task 2 will be a review of the history and science of the spraying of herbicides at CFB Gagetown from 1952 to present day and an assessment of their environmental fate and impacts.*

The Agent Orange Association of Canada suggests that the government look no further than their own documentation easily obtained through the "Access To Information" Act . It gives a complete listing of all chemicals sprayed during the years in question.

*Fact-finding Task 3 is divided into two parts: Part 1 is a health study that will assess potential risks to human health from the herbicides used at CFB Gagetown, based on the properties of these products and the probability and degree of exposure. * 

Part 2 is a descriptive epidemiological study, which would determine whether there is a higher incidence of illnesses in the population in the area surrounding CFB Gagetown, versus a control population from elsewhere. 

The Agent Orange Association of Canada believes that an epidemiological study of the present population would not show true results. The 200,000 troops and their families that were at CFB Gagetown between 1956 and 1984 are no longer residents. 

The Agent Orange Association of Canada believe that the Base Gagetown and Area Fact Finder project has to be dismantled. After 50 years of lies and deception from the Department of National Defence they should not be leading this investigation. The project cannot and will not be trusted.

On March 10 of this year the Department of National Defence issued a press release stating that of soil samples already tested ten percent were above accepted levels.

The other 90 percent did contain dioxins but were below Canadian Council of Ministers for the Environment (CCME) soil quality guidelines for dioxins. Considering the half life of dioxins are five to ten years, one must question what the levels would have been when the defoliants were sprayed up to 50 years ago. The soil samples were only testing for 17 of 76 possible dioxins. There has been no hexachlorbenzene testing results as of this writing.

Veteran Affairs Canada, the federal government department mandated to look after Canada’s veterans, has been less than stellar in this affair. The year 2005 was the "Year of the Veteran". Unfortunately that was only in name not in practice. Although Veteran Affairs claims that it gives veterans "benefit of the doubt" when they apply for benefits it appears not to be the case when they apply for benefits due to illness from chemical defoliants.

As of March 14, 2006 reports state that were 1453 applications received, of those 17 have been approved.

In January of 2006 the Canadian public elected a new Conservative Party government. The newly elected Prime Minster Stephen Harper during his election campaign promised to provide medical testing and compensation to victims of toxic herbicide spraying by Canada's armed forces at CFB Gagetown. 

Note that Prime Minster Harper said medical testing and compensation to "victims" of toxic herbicide spraying. The Agent Orange Association of Canada takes that to mean all victims including spouses and children of military personnel as well as civilians. The Agent Orange Association of Canada also takes that to mean all toxic herbicide spraying and not only agent orange.

Media reports have stated that the newly elected government will move the Agent Orange file from the Department of National Defence to the control of Veteran Affairs Canada. As of this date that has not happened. 

The Agent Orange Association has received thousands of emails, letters and phone calls from the victims of this tragedy that describe death, sickness and despair. They describe lives ruined by illnesses that in the minds of so many were unexplained. In Canada there is a lack of medical professionals that are familiar with the diagnosis and treatment of chemical poisoning. The victims have no one to turn to for medical assistance.

The Agent Orange Association of Canada believes that the Canadian government should mirror the Americans' actions and adopt a "presumptive clause" whereby if an individual both military and civilian is identified as being at CFB Gagetown during the years of spraying and is suffering or has suffered from a disease related to these chemicals then they are awarded compensation. One compensation plan should be in effect for all.

The Government of Canada must establish testing programs, and provide funds for medical care expenses not covered by medi-care. Grief and psychological counselling must also be made available. The Agent Orange Association of Canada is calling for a public inquiry into the poisoning of generations of military and civilian personnel. Finally there is one more thing required for the victims who have died, their loved ones and those who are now sick. It is the most important thing of all. An apology.

In closing I welcome you to watch what Canada does as a nation. I welcome you to watch and see if Canada’s newly elected government fulfills its promises to do the right thing. I pray to God that my country Canada makes me proud and seizes the opportunity to be the world leader in the humane treatment of individuals suffering from chemical defoliant poisoning. 

In a world that becomes smaller each and every day it is imperative that we as human beings learn to realise that chemical defoliant poisoning has happened for far too long. We need to make those responsible take accountability for the pain and suffering of the poisoned around the world. I ask each and every one of you delegates to educate me and in turn let me educate you to the things we know so that we can return to our homes and educate the world to the tragedy that so many have suffered.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

In an article "CFB Gagetown dioxin tests inconclusive", by MICHAEL STAPLES, printed in the Daily Gleaner of Greater Fredericton, published on page A1 on April 22, 2006, 
This paper copywrites their articles so I can not copy paste it to this location.. sorry... but I must comment on parts of it and anyone in the Gagetown area can obtain a copy and read for themselves... 

_In the article Col Ryan Jesting reported as saying that the areas on Ripon Road and the Clones and Murphy bivouac areas done by Health Canada last month have not provided the the answers he was seeking, further saying, the inconclusive results are being reviewed by a panel. That the process will include double-checking to make sure no errors were made with the various samples taken and it could also include taking new samples and having them re-tested._

The areas mentioned were tested and the results were that they were highly contaminated with DIOXINS, now it seems that is not good enough and the military believe that if they test long enough and often enough they might eventually come up with one test that is to their liking and then "Problem Solved"... Well if the tests in those areas do not meet the standard then can the results of the tests in ALL the other areas be trusted?   The veterans who were poisoned (some of who have already died) sit and wait for DND to play their silly games of test this and retest that, when what has been said for so many years is being proven BUT DND reject that proof... 

It would seem to me that the title "Inconclusive if you don't like the answers" would have been a much better title to the article


----------



## 3rd Horseman

the results were that they were highly contaminated with DIOXINS, 

Highly contaminated? the results were that the contamination was at a similar level to acceptable levels that canadian chemical workers would expect to work in if they worked in an industrial park. The unaccetable level found at Gagetown was that of a wildlfe area standard not what would be a standard for a labour force to work in. There are different standards for specific locations. The key is was the result higher then what would be resonable for human occupation and work. It was not.


----------



## ArmyRick

I am going to speak. Their is an endless list of carcengenic (SP?) chemicals out there. In civilian industries, beleive it is alot WORSE than CFB Gagetown training area. Yes agent Orange is nasty, nasty stuff. There is far worse.

Want to really freak out on what is bad for you? Try looking at the daily contamination you do for your own body with shampoos, soap, hair spray, shaving gel, tooth paste, deodorant, household cleaning products... They are far more full of dangerous chemicals than the stuff sprayed forty years ago in the training area.

Just look up Sodium Laurel Sulfate some time on Google and found out a little bit about it and where it is used on a daily basis. Thats only one of many dangerous chemicals out there.

There are alternatives.


----------



## aesop081

Removed at freind's request


----------



## Sandy Skipton

> Highly contaminated? the results were that the contamination was at a similar level to acceptable levels that canadian chemical workers would expect to work in if they worked in an industrial park. The unaccetable level found at Gagetown was that of a wildlfe area standard not what would be a standard for a labour force to work in. There are different standards for specific locations. The key is was the result higher then what would be resonable for human occupation and work. It was not.



Yes 3rd Horseman "highly contaminated" as was reported by the Base Commander. 50 TIMES HIGHER than acceptable for humans by Health standards. The three areas mentioned were closed off and marked 'Out of Bounds'. You seem to be in the Gagetown area and I am surprised that you did not know this. I am surprised since it has been in the local news there that the Americans are rethinking if they will use Gagetown for their training this coming summer and have had meetings with the Base Commander to discuss this problem... 

ArmyRick... your absolutely right and those of us who are aware take extra care to NOT contaminated our bodies with such dangerous chemicals... It is really to bad that the government kept the chemicals used in Gagetown as a secret for so long or we may have been able to treat the unknown ailments that so many military members and doctors were confused about...  Doctors in Canada are just now learning how to handle environmental illnesses when they could have been learning a long time ago and perhaps preventing all the poisons that are now being used by people... I am sure you have heard news of all the communities that are banning a lot of these items now and that Canada Health is putting out warnings to inform people about the problems of such chemicals.... WHY THE HELL DID THEY KEEP IT SECRET FOR SO LONG AND LIE ABOUT IT????

btw.. CFB Gagetown was contaminated with much more than just dioxin and the chemicals were applied from 1956-1984     Hexachlorobenzen, Arsenic are two others for example. The Agent Orange you refer to was a 50/50 combination of two chemicals and that combination was sprayed over several years... before the Americans nick-named it Agent Orange.... The nick-name came about because of the identifying orange strip that was painted around the barrels so the barrels would not get mixed up with others when being shipped...


----------



## Sandy Skipton

2-4D, just one of the chemicals sprayed in large quantities at Gagetown, over the years, is now being reported as being linked with cancer. As noted in the report, this chemical is very widely used across Canada and its use for cosmetic purposes may be banned in Canada in the near future.
====================================



> April 26, 2006
> Common weed killer linked to cancer
> 
> DENNIS BUECKERT
> Canadian Press
> 
> Ottawa — The most commonly used weed killer on Canadian lawns and
> gardens — known only as 2,4-D — is "persuasively linked" to cancer,
> neurological impairment and reproductive problems, says a new study.
> The report in the journal Paediatrics and Child Health directly
> contradicts a recent re-assessment of 2,4-D by the federal Pest
> Management Regulatory Agency, which found the product does not cause
> cancer and can be used safely on lawns if directions are followed.
> The product 2,4-D is found in many common pesticides, and has been
> controversial for decades.
> 
> By coincidence, the study appeared the same day that New Democrat MP
> Pat Martin tabled a private member's bill that would ban the use of
> pesticides for cosmetic purposes.
> 
> Mr. Martin says more than 50 million kilograms of pesticides are
> still used in Canada each year.
> 
> His bill would require pesticide manufacturers to prove their
> products are safe before being placed on the market, rather than
> regulators being required to prove the products are dangerous.
> The authors of the new study say the federal re-assessment is
> largely based on animal studies, which cannot predict consequences
> in humans. They also say many of the studies are confidential,
> supplied by the manufacturers themselves.
> 
> "The 2,4-D assessment (by the federal agency) does not approach
> standards for ethics, rigour or transparency in medical research,"
> said medical writer Meg Sears, speaking for co-authors Robin Walker,
> Richard van der Jagt and Paul Claman.
> 
> Dr. an der Jagt is chair of the Canadian Leukemia Studies Group; Dr.
> Walker is past president of the Canadian Pediatric Association; Dr.
> Claman is a professor of reproductive medicine at the University of
> Ottawa.
> 
> "What we find is that the (federal agency) looks at a completely
> different set of information than the doctors do," Ms. Sears
> said. "They are looking at what happens in animals and their
> information is largely proprietary.
> 
> "The doctors are looking at what is happening in children and people
> living across the country and they are seeing major reasons for our
> problems.
> 
> "This is why we have a complete disconnect between what's happening
> at the federal level and down where the doctors are saying there are
> problems."
> 
> A spokeswoman for the Pest Management Regulatory Agency declined to
> comment on the study, but said it is being reviewed. She
> acknowledged the agency uses confidential studies in some cases.
> About 90 Canadian municipalities and the entire province of Quebec
> have already banned the non-essential use of pesticides. Other
> attempts to impose a ban, in Ottawa for example, have failed.


----------



## 3rd Horseman

You would have to be living in a cave not to know that 2-4-D is a cancer causer. Whether soldiers exposure on the range was a greater exposure than at their own homes, schools and park land would be the prime question.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

Quote from my last post


> The report in the journal Paediatrics and Child Health directly
> contradicts a recent re-assessment of 2,4-D by the federal Pest
> Management Regulatory Agency, which found the product does not cause
> cancer



Quote from 3rd Horseman's post


> You would have to be living in a cave not to know that 2-4-D is a cancer causer.



Thank you for the chuckle, now I am picturing Federal Pest Management Regulatory Agency as cave dwellers....    :rofl:


----------



## DBA

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> Just look up Sodium Laurel Sulfate some time on Google and found out a little bit about it and where it is used on a daily basis. Thats only one of many dangerous chemicals out there.



Not a very good example. The first entry is to an urban lengends site debunking false information being passed around that it causes cancer.


----------



## ArmyRick

I never said SLS was a carcinogen, I said it was a dangerous chemical.

Sodium Lauryl Sulfate is not a carcenogen.  It is a penetration enhancer and skin irritant.  As a penetration enhancer, it breaks down the skin and allows more toxins to enter the body (meaning carcinogens that the skin, as a filter, will usually keep out are now able to enter).  As a skin irritant, it is acually used in clinical studies to test skin creams designed to soothe rashes, etc.  SLS is used to CAUSE the initial irritation, so that it can be seen if the new cream has the desired result.

SLS does also get taken up by the organs and stored in the body, since the body really has no way to process it.  Obviously, an increase in toxins in the body will lead to an increased risk of cancer.

For more information on SLS, you can go to www.ewg.org, and select "Cosmetics" from the Site Index.  The section entitled "Skin Deep" breaks down a list of products on the market, rates them according to toxicity, and explains why they chemicals are toxic.

For more in-depth research on SLS, you can get some pretty scary information from Philip Day's "Cancer: Why we're still dying to know the truth"  This book has an excellent explanation of the effects of SLS on different organs, and even how it effects the development of the eyes in newborns. The book was published by Credence, ISBN 0-9535012-4-8.  Mr. Day has written a large number of other books and article, also available on teh credence website, www.credence.org


Another good source for information is the website for the Cancer Prevention Coalition, www.preventcancer.com .  Again, this site primarily talks about how SLS allows other toxins to enter the system:

"A final ingredient of particular concern is the harshly irritant sodium lauryl sulfate. A single application to adult human skin has been shown to damage its microscopic structure, increasing the penetration of carcinogenic and other toxic ingredients. "
http://www.preventcancer.com/publications/pdf/Time%20to%20Protect%20Babies%20feb2805.htm

As well, there are a number of books, articles and other materials put out by Dr. Samuel Epstein, the Chairman of the Cancer Prevention Coalition.

So, you are right, SLS is not a carcinogen, and that old email floating around stating that it is has been called out long ago.

BUT, SLS is NOT safe.  It is a cheap alternative to safer solutions.

You would be hard pressed to find SLS in any of the products in our home...not even in the bathroom tile scrubber.

Cheers, Armyrick and Armyrick's chick.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

These reports will be quite interesting with all the nonsense the government has reported up til now... and yes I am very distrusting at this stage of the process... 

http://canadaeast.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060525/CPA/49959029



> *Defence minister says Agent Orange issue will be settled in one year*
> 
> FREDERICTON (CP) - A resolution to the Agent Orange controversy at Canadian Forces Base Gagetown is still about one year away, Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor said Thursday.
> 
> O'Connor, during his first official visit to Canada's largest army training base, said two important reports on Agent Orange will be released in New Brunswick next week.
> 
> He said one report will look at the history of herbicide spraying at the base, from its early days in the 1950s to present day.
> 
> The second report will discuss recent tests at the base to determine if there are lingering effects from years of chemical spraying.
> 
> "I think that, in the overall scheme of things, we're about one year away from final resolution of this problem," O'Connor told reporters.
> 
> "One of the things they're trying to do is determine who was here, all the names, so that when they get to a resolution they will know who to deal with."
> 
> During the mid-1960s, the U.S. military tested the powerful defoliants Agent Purple and Agent Orange, as well as several other agents used during the Vietnam War, at the New Brunswick base.
> 
> Both military personnel and civilians who live near the base have raised concerns about their health as a result of exposure to chemical sprays.
> 
> The issue has been complicated by the fact that many of the same herbicides applied at Gagetown were widely used in other operations across the country, including forestry and farming.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

http://www.basegagetownandareafactfindersproject.ca/index-e.html



> MEDIA ADVISORY
> 
> May 26, 2006
> 
> Fact-Finder to discuss first two reports on herbicide use at CFB Gagetown
> 
> Dr. Dennis Furlong, Fact-finding Outreach Coordinator, will hold a press conference to discuss the most current findings with regards to the spraying of herbicides at CFB Gagetown on Thursday, June 1, 2006 1pm at the Oromocto Days Inn.
> 
> The press conference will focus on the final reports from Task 2A (a review of the history of the use of herbicides at CFB Gagetown from 1952 to the present) and 2B (an environmental site assessment of the range and training area at CFB Gagetown).
> 
> All reports will be embargoed until 1:00 p.m.
> 
> Note to editors:
> A media room at the Days Inn will be opened at 11:30am and reports from Tasks 2A and 2B will be made available.
> 
> Fact-finding and Outreach Coordinators office – (506) 357-8200


----------



## Sandy Skipton

Finally some of the truth is coming out... and now it seems there are 9 contaminated areas in CFB Gagetown. The website referred to below contains 2 quite a large files so I suggest any who are interested check it out for themselves.... It takes time to read but it does prove that what "WE" have been saying about the chemicals is now being accepted and confirmed by DND and the government.. The chemicals WERE sprayed and toxic chemical residue is still a problem as far as I am concerned... 

Now if only DVA can give help to the people that are so sick. That would be the best thing that I can think of happening but we may have to wait for another year... 

http://www.basegagetownandareafactfindersproject.ca/task2A-B.html


----------



## Sandy Skipton

I have started to read the reports and have read to page 13 and  the Reports Pose Questions

As I read "Final Report: Task 2A: The History and Science of Herbicide Use at CFB Gagetown From 1952 to Present", one of the reports done by Jacques Whitford, I note 
that a lot has been done in recent years to TRY to control pesticides and herbicides. As of 1978, the Environmental Protection Services has conducted inspections of federal government sponsored pesticide applications. New Brunswick regulates pesticide use under the Pesticides Control Act (1973) and four measures in the act directly apply to the 
application of herbicides at CFB Gagetown. It is further noted that DND follows the provincial standards and regulations for herbicide application within the Range and 
Training Area at CFB Gagetown....

Documents, pertaining to safety, used to produce this report show dates of 1999, 1979, 1978 and 2000. DND also adheres to polices and codes and practices such as, the 
Treasury Board Manual, Occupational Safety and Health Volume pertaining to Pesticides and this requires that a record of pesticide use be maintained for 30 years...

DND & Government Officials still say they followed all regulations. The chemical tragedy happened long before any of these dates of control so DND is patting 
themselves on the back for changes that were made after the fact?? One change they forgot as they learned that these chemicals could poison and kill humans was the 
victims themselves. Did no one think to warn the victims? Did no one think that 'due care and caution' was also a requirement to protect human life and still is?

As the victims die after enduring lengthy dehabiliating illnesses, DND and the Government state they followed standards and regulations... Where were these 
'standards and regulation' when the tragedy was happening?? Now look at the reports of contamination at this time and add the spraying happening now, according to 
'standards and regulations' and add and add and add to the toxic soup. 9 areas in total that are over the acceptable level of contamination and DND is trying to decided what to do with those areas?  Only 3 areas have been marked 'out of bounds'?   THIS TRAGEDY MUST NEVER BE REPEATED, PLEASE


----------



## GailBrat

Hi All,
Just managed to find this forum by chance. I need to spill my guts and this appears to be a good place for it. 
I read all your posts and its amazing just how many people there is out there that have been affected by Agent Orange. Well,....it makes me see RED!!!!!
I am a proud army brat and my father is an extremely proud RCEME. He served 32 yrs in the CF. Was a good life he says,.....till lately.
My father was posted to Gagetown from 1961-1971. We lived in Moncton and Dad was in Gagetown 2-3 days each week in the field. Five years ago his first cancers started. I could list the proper names but I don't think its necessary. All his cancers are in his upper body mainly mouth, throat and now he has lung cancer. The worst one is the cancer in his mouth. Last October he had to have an operation that consisted of the removal of part of his tongue, jaw, gum and cheek. He was in the hospital for 3 months. He has a feeding tube as he cannot eat by mouth. It was this cancer that was so puzzling how someone so healthy could get all these cancers in the same area within several years. His cancer doctor was puzzled. Said there was no logical explanation for it. I mentioned about army and gagetown and he said, "of course, that is the only possible way, agent orange".
Since my father has gotten out of the hospital he requires lots of care and help. I called around and was always stopped by a brick wall. Finally I got in contact with an old old boyfriend of mine from 29 years ago to see if he could help me.(He is currently my new old boyfriend ) He helped me get on the right path, gather all the info needed to start this Agent Orange claim.
When you retire the CF gives you all your employment history. Everything is documented. Well guess what? All was there except for the two years,....1966 and 1967. Go figure.
I called DVA, started the claim and was told without those two years I was SOL. The case workers exact words.
I continued to dig and dig and a superman from DND Ottawa The Center Peter Lewis found the missing years we needed. I requested every document that had Dad's name on it from Archives and went to work. I compiled my claim and did my homework. I sent in the claim and was assigned another person. After waiting months I contacted this person and was told " your fathers file is in a pile on a desk waiting to be reviewed". I have documented every phone call, names, what they said and I have spoken to alto of people trying to get somewhere just to get a bit of help to care for my father. Still brick walls. Not to mention the endless attempts to add me to the claim so I could speak on Dad's behalf,.....because he can't talk. Finally we received our denial letter, it says yes, you were there at the proper times, yes, some of the cancers are linked to Agent Orange but unfortunately there is no evidence that you were exposed to Agent Orange. Pretty disheartening for sure.
Meanwhile my fathers cancer has come back and is given several months to live. I immediately called to appeal. I am told I will receive a letter from an advocate that is on my side and will advise me on what more I needed to  get this claim approved. I receive a letter 2-3 weeks later from the advocates legal admin secretary. She says we are not going to appeal as we need to wait for the fact finders project to be completed. Also in the second paragraph of the letter stated that they understand that my fathers psoriasis claim due to agent orange was denied. I could not believe this. If my father only had psoriasis,......   I was so upset that I called back and asked to speak to the advocate that was on my side. I got her to read the letter we were sent and she said it was just a typo,....no apologies, just told me she has been doing this for 20 years and that she dictates and secretary types it. That's another story.
My father was admitted to the hospital yesterday. He weighs 80 lbs,..can't talk, has a feeding tube and is on every drug you can imagine for pain, he is sleeping most of the time because of the medication he is on. All because of Agent Orange. 
All we wanted was to get a bit of help. The stress and strain and grief it has caused our family is unbearable.  I have not lived at my own residence for almost a year. I must sell my home as I cannot care for my parents and keep that place going. I will not back down from this. I will go to the media, I will get the attention I need to have. Its no longer about help or money. Its about acknowledgement. I will get the attention I need one way or another. My father deserves dignity and respect.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

I can not express the compassion I want to pass on to your family.... It is so difficult to deal with having a sick family member and I can understand your anger... 
From what you have posted here, I can see that your dad certainly MUST know that he is greatly loved by his family and that is a blessing... 

Sandy Skipton     info.needed@ns.sympatico.ca

Please email me when you feel you can....


----------



## GUNS

GailBrat, my heart goes out to you, your family and espically your father. I to am a former soldier that served in Gagetown and I have cancer. I also applied to VA and was denied because as they say it," all Agent Orange claims are being held over until the review is completed."
The goverment has repeated many times that a package will be completed by this fall or early spring. This does not help those like your father who needs assistance now.
Keep fighting VA, use all possible means to reach your goal on behalf of your father. 

GUNS
(Gagetown-70/71/72.


----------



## GailBrat

Thanks so much for the kind words Sandy and Guns. Its been one hell of a day!! My brothers and sister and I spent the whole day at the hospital. The doctor gave my father 1-2 days. One minute I am ok, then the next minute I am losing it. I have watched my father suffer and dwindle away to nothing for so long now that the reality is finally starting to sink in. I am so bitter at the government,....all of them. Its so funny how things work. Can't get help from VA because Dad never fought in a war, if we can prove he was injured while he served then they will help. So the Agent Orange claim was filed and denied.  I call to appeal and the advocate tells me no we can't appeal until the fact-finders survey is complete. We try to get help from the provincial government. They come and assess Dad. Dad cannot eat by mouth, feeding tube only. His total food supply comes from a liquid can that goes in his feeding tube and he cannot open his can because he is too weak. The government says he is fine. Doesn't need help. Yep,....the only thing he has benefited from is his Veteran's plates. Thank god for them!!!!!  The money he has saved on all his free parking for his endless hospital visits and treatments have added up. I am in the process of a claim for a shoulder injury and 2 operations from playing ball for the army. Will try that way. 
By the way, my fathers name is MCpl Robert (Bob) Charland. He was RCEME and was with the RCD's overseas.  Dad has many friends throughout his military career and I am sure they would like to know whats going on with him. If there is anyone out there that remembers him, let me know.

Thanks again for your compassion, that is one thing VA doesn't have
Gail


----------



## muffin

A local artical from this morning's Kingston Whig Standard (reproduced in accordance with with Fair dealings etc etc etc )

http://www.thewhig.com/webapp/sitepages/content.asp?contentid=76996&catname=Local+News&classif=News+%2D+Local

Agent Orange sufferers fear for children

By Frank Armstrong
Local News - Monday, June 19, 2006 @ 07:00

While a soldier in the Korean War and at Canadian Forces Base Gagetown, Bill Marshall spent countless days crawling through dense foliage dripping with herbicide defoliants as he participated in manoeuvres or laid communication lines for Canadian soldiers.

The former lineman and veteran of the Korean and Second Waorld Wars knows he was exposed to massive doses of toxic chemicals in Korea and at the New Brunswick military base.

“We would be surveying where to put the lines and I could see the planes going over and I would come home soaking, my clothes just reeking with chemical pesticides,” Marshall said from his Kingston home yesterday.

More than 50 years after serving in Korea and 45 years after living at CFB Gagetown, Marshall is fighting colon and liver cancer that the federal government has acknowledged was caused by exposure to herbicides.

Officials with Veterans Affairs Canada proclaimed Marshall’s cancer stemmed from his exposure to defoliants in Korea and sent him his compensation only a few months after he applied for it last year.

To date, 21 veterans since 1995 have been awarded compensation pensions for being exposed to Agent Orange. Of those, four have been awarded for service-related exposure to Agent Orange at CFB Gagetown.

Marshall is grateful he’s receiving full compensation for his suffering and that the money came quickly.

He’s now hoping the federal government will compensate the thousands of other Canadians who may have been poisoned by Agent Orange and other defoliants sprayed to kill trees and brush around parts of CFB Gagetown in the 1950s and onwards.


Last week, a CFB Shilo man launched a class-action suit against the federal government on behalf of all those who “have suffered or are expected to suffer” from exposure.

Marshall hopes his daughter, who was conceived and born at CFB Gagetown and now suffers from violent, daily epileptic fits, will also get some money from the federal government.

Julie Daoust, a spokeswoman for Veterans Affairs Canada, said the federal government will respond to any concerns raised by Canadian Forces members, veterans, civilians and area residents about herbicide use at CFB Gagetown. She also said it is developing compensation options for government consideration.

“The work is being handled on a priority basis and is progressing well,” Daoust said yesterday.

Marshall and his wife, Anna, are convinced Jackie Ellis’s fits are caused by her father’s exposure to chemical defoliants at CFB Gagetown and in Korea.

Jackie, who lives in Newcastle, near Toronto, can’t work for a living. She’s knocked out all of her front teeth while falling during fits and is completely dependent on her husband.

“She can’t even cross the street on her own,” said Anna.

The Marshalls are investing a lot of their hope in their neighbour, Gloria Sellar, who convinced the Marshalls last year to apply for the compensation and helped them do it.

The Kingston woman has been appointed to a national panel that is examining the use of Agent Orange and other herbicides at CFB Gagetown and its effects on soldiers and others there as far back as 50 years ago.

“When I got sick, she said, Get off your butt because Gordon got his pension,’ ” Bill Marshall said. “She told me what to do and how to go about it.”

For 15 years, Gloria Sellar campaigned for compensation for her husband, but it wasn’t until June 2004 that the federal government acknowledged that the herbicide it allowed the U.S. military to test around CFB Gagetown could have caused deadly illnesses.

On Friday, Sellar left Kingston for Oromocto, N.B., where she is working to get compensation for those afflicted among the more than 1,000 soldiers who served under her husband in the 1960s at the base when he was colonel and commanding officer of the 1st Battalion, Black Watch.

She’s helping soldiers, veterans and their families apply for compensation by helping them write letters and organize documents that must accompany the applications.

Sellar, one of 12 members of the panel, is the widow of Gordon Sellar, a decorated war veteran and retired brigadier-general. He died at the age of 80 in 2004 from leukemia attributed to exposure to Agent Orange at the New Brunswick military base.

Sellar will meet with the panel on Wednesday and Thursday to discuss the latest results of a fact-finding and outreach initiative that’s examining the use of herbicides at CFB Gagetown.

The initiative is trying to do the following:

Figure out how herbicides react in the human body, how humans become exposed and the risk to human health;

Explore the history of herbicide use at CFB Gagetown since 1952;

Identify Canadian Forces members and civilian employees who were present during the testing or regular spraying of herbicides at the base.

Before leaving Kingston, Sellar said she has been impressed by the efforts being made to investigate the issue, but she said the process needs to be sped up because many of the people who were exposed are so sick and dying.

“Everyone is working very hard, but time just doesn’t seem to be on our side,” Sellar said yesterday.

She hopes that compensation will soon come for more people.

She also said there is some anger that the process is taking so long.

“Soldiers are feeling they have given their lives to the service and love it and were so loyal to it,” she said.

Bill Marshall and Gordon Sellar aren’t the only local men who believed they were made sick by herbicides sprayed at CFB Gagetown.

Ken Dobbie of Kingston is the lead plaintiff in a lawsuit against the federal government that is in the process of being certified as a class-action suit.

His association, the Agent Orange Association of Canada, set up about a year ago, has been contacted by about 3,000 people who have either lived or worked at Gagetown. Sellar is the association’s honorary chairwoman.

At 57, Dobbie suffers from a multitude of health problems, including seizures, diabetes, blackouts and pancreatitis. His symptoms began with stomach ulcers within months of finishing his brush-clearing job at CFB Gagetown.

He has been hospitalized numerous times, is unable to work and is screened for liver and pancreatic cancer every three months.


----------



## GailBrat

My father sadly lost his battle with his cancers due to Agent Orange.  

Robert J. Charland 

Robert (Bob) J. Charland 75, of Moncton, surrounded by his family, passed away peacefully at the Dr. Georges L. Dumont Hospital on Monday June 26, 2006, after a courageous battle with cancer. Born in Ottawa, he was the son of the late Joseph and Mary (Gilbert) Charland. Bob was retired from the Canadian Armed Forces with 32 years service, having being stationed in Lahr, Germany; Alert, Northwest Territories; Whitehorse, Yukon; Saint John, Gagetown and various bases in Ontario. Bob was a member of Moncton legion Branch # 6, he enjoyed working on cars, playing darts, was an avid cook and enjoyed all sports, however, his grandchildren, great grandchild and family came first.

Bob will be sadly missed by his wife of 54 years Emilienne (Millie) (Theriault) Charland: Daughters; Sandra Roper (Frank), Shediac; Gail Leger, Berry Mills;; Sons: Guy, Moncton; Maurice (Gisele), Mississauga, ON: Grandchildren; Craig, Lesley, Tanya, Robyn, Amanda, Ryan, Travis, Lisa, April: Great Granddaughter Abigail. Brothers: Ernie (Betty), North Gower, On; Bill (Dot), Calgary, AB; Raymond, Alberta. Several nieces and nephews. Predeceased by his brother Jim.

Visitation at Ferguson Knowles Funeral Home, 1657 Mountain Road, Moncton (858-1995) Wednesday 2-4, 7-9pm. Moncton Legion # 6 Memorial service Wednesday 7pm. Funeral Service at Ferguson Knowles Funeral Home Chapel, Thursday June 29, 2006, 11am. Rev. Aaron Billard officiating. Reception following the service.

In Bob’s memory, donations made to Dr. Georges L. Dumont Hospital Oncology unit or the Canadian Cancer Society would be appreciated.


----------



## GUNS

I am so sorry for your loss.

GUNS


----------



## Sandy Skipton

Update 
I have located the newspapers I have been looking for "Oromocto Gazette" the years of '64, '65, '66  so I now can verify some of my husbands story because the '64 paper has a great deal of coverage about a soccer competition and it names the CFB Chatham team as a participant. Only problem there is that the team was knocked out in the first round so team members are not named... My search for info is back on-track and still ongoing.... 

I would like to suggest that it is important that people retain a file of their personal information, since I have run up against the 'privacy act' and it seems just now that the act is being REALLY enforced on anything... (ie we used to be able to go to a doc office and ask for a copy of our documents, that is much harder to do today) This is causing a problem for the type of search that I am on.... take it from me, at this moment in time, even YOUR information is being protected FROM YOU by the interruptation of the 'privacy act'. I believe the law makers are questioning this and perhaps they will get it sorted out. BUT, unless you have your history (paper trail) in your possession you may be denied access to it if you ever need the info.... 

As for the BGAFFP (BaseGagetown and Area Fact-Finding Project) concerning the chemical exposures at CFB Gagetown during the years 1956 up til present time, it is expected that during Mid-Aug there will be approximately 4 reports released: Task 2D AirDrift, Task 2E Water Migration, Task 3A-I Toxicology Risk Assessment (Tier 1),Task 3A2 Human Health Risk Assessment re. Contaminated Sites. We will be able to read these reports at http://www.basegagetownandareafactfindersproject.ca/index-e.html in the area named "What's New".   Two of the research companies, that were hired to study specific areas and present reports, have completed their reports and those can also be read at the same website and show several sites in Gagetown that are still contaminated today by the very chemicals the victims were exposed to.... The facts are being put together and the facts are bearing up the stories that have been told by those that were exposed....


----------



## Sandy Skipton

Two of the health reports have been released at http://www.basegagetownandareafactfindersproject.ca/task3_final_report.html

These two reports are part of an ongoing process of research and information gathering aimed at providing a complete picture of the testing and use of herbicides at CFB Gagetown from 1952 to the present day. A number of other reports will be released in the following months.

Task 3A-1 a toxicological human health risk assessment will be done in three tiers. Tier 1 report was presented today and Tiers 2 and 3 will be the subject of subsequent reports. The objective of Task 3A-1 Tier 1 was to conduct a human health risk assessment to estimate potential exposures to contaminants within those military products, to characterize potential health risks and to determine whether exposures to herbicides and contaminants within those herbicides, used at CFB Gagetown, during the 1966–67 U.S. trials, may be associated with human health risks. 

The objective of Task 3A-2 was to conduct a Human Health Risk Assessment (HHRA) to evaluate potential human exposures to current levels of herbicides and herbicide related chemicals for people who could be expected to be on the site currently or in the future.

Neither of these reports were favourable to the victims and from my point of view, it would seem that Health Canada has put themselves out on a precipice and is standing against many world renown scientists.  Hopefully the next two reports will report information that will protect our future. 

These reports are seen as a relief to the Commander of CFB Gagetown... 



> Three training areas that had been closed to troops since March were put back into service Thursday after a federally commissioned scientific study concluded the closures over fears of dioxin contamination were "not warranted."
> 
> Word of the reopening is welcome news in the region because base personnel make up a large component of the local workforce.
> 
> When the sections were first closed back in March, base commander Col. Ryan Jestin said that without the base's training areas, there would be no reason to keep the base open.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

Minister of Veterans Affairs and President of AOAC (Agent Orange Association of Canada), respond to the latest reports concerning Chemicals sprayed at Gagetown... 



> Ottawa promises compensation in Agent Orange controversy at N.B. base
> 16:40:33 EDT Aug 11, 2006
> Canadian Press: CHRIS MORRIS
> FREDERICTON (CP) - Veterans Affairs Minister Greg Thompson says the federal government is committed to compensating people whose health was harmed by herbicides at Canadian Forces Base Gagetown, despite new reports that have downplayed the health risks.
> 
> Thompson said Friday the federal government understands there may not be enough hard data to make scientific decisions about events that happened as long as 50 years ago.
> 
> But he said that's where compassion and fairness will become part of the equation.
> 
> "The whole story will not come out on the testing simply because it happened so many years ago," Thompson said in an interview.
> 
> "All of those people can't be wrong; some of the evidence we know is out there can't be wrong and there's obviously a lot of evidence that would be missing simply because of the passage of time.
> 
> "At the end of the day, we will be coming up with a compensation package for those people."
> 
> People seeking either compensation or military disability pensions as a result of defoliant spraying at the New Brunswick base were disappointed by two reports this week that gave the base a clean bill of health.
> 
> The reports also concluded there were no long-term health problems as a result of U.S. military tests of such products as Agent Orange and Agent Purple during a seven-day period in 1966 and 1967.
> 
> There are more reports to come, including a study of the health impacts of all herbicide spraying at the base.
> 
> But Ken Dobbie, head of the Ottawa-based Agent Orange Association of Canada, said he is becoming increasingly skeptical of the federal government's investigation of the Agent Orange controversy.
> 
> Dobbie said there is no way the southern New Brunswick base should get a clean bill of health, especially when just four months ago three areas were declared off limits because of higher-than-acceptable dioxin levels.
> 
> "We have had this whitewash going on for 50 years and I would say there is a conspiracy to try and push this issue onto the back burner or off the stove entirely," Dobbie said.
> 
> Based on the latest studies, areas of CFB Gagetown that were closed have now been reopened.
> 
> Thompson said he is not questioning the studies that were released this week.
> 
> He said it is good news that the base, the largest military training facility in Canada, is safe for Canadian and allied troops to use.
> 
> Thompson said the health studies may indicate that fewer people will be entitled to compensation.
> 
> "It could indicate that the number of those who actually would be compensated is lower than what some might have thought from the get-go," he said.
> 
> It's estimated at least 200,000 people passed through the base during the years of herbicide spraying with dioxin-laden chemicals, roughly from the 1950s to the early 1980s.
> 
> Defoliant chemicals during that period were contaminated with a potent and highly toxic dioxin called 2,3,7,8-TCDD, which has been linked, at high exposures, to cancer, birth defects, immune system deficiencies and emotional problems.
> 
> Thompson said he hopes to have a compensation recommendation to take to the federal cabinet by late fall or the new year.
> 
> He said he is leaning towards a one-time, lump-sum payment following the example of compensation payments made to Hong Kong veterans.
> 
> In 1998, the Canadian government granted compensation of $24,000 to each surviving prisoner of war or widow for the forced labour Canadian servicemen endured while prisoners of the Japanese during the Second World War.
> 
> "That's the type of compensation package we would be looking at," Thompson said.
> 
> "It's not an admission of guilt by the government of Canada. It's based on compassion, not on raw data."



$24,000??   that is NOT compassion... that is about how much a yearly wage increase is for MPs... how about recognizing the damage to so many and their children, grandchildren with REAL compassion... not necessarily $s but an apology and maintaining a memorial to those that have died and will die due to this tragedy. $24,000 might just cover 1 or 2 yrs of medical bills for those that are still alive and require day-to-day assistance and the amount stated will likely be seen as adding insult to injury. We also feel concern to those that may be exposed to such chemicals in the future, if the government does not accept responsibility will this become an ongoing battle? Just adding my thoughts...


----------



## Sandy Skipton

Public Meeting 

Agent Orange Association of Canada 

Dartmouth Sportsplex 

Thistle Room 

110 Wyse Rd 

Dartmouth Nova Scotia 

Saturday August 26, 2006 

1:30 - 4:30 PM​
You are invited to meet with members of the Agent Orange Association of Canada for an informal gathering for conversation and refreshments. 

This gathering will be of interest to individuals who may be suffering ill health from the more than 1.3 million litres and 2 million lbs of dry deadly chemical defoliants containing dioxin and hexachlorobenzene sprayed at CFB Gagetown new Brunswick between 1956 to 1984. 

We look forward to meeting you. 

                                        www.agentorangealert.com


----------



## Sandy Skipton

Sat Aug26 AOAC (AgentOrangeAssociation of Canada) had, what we feel was a very successful meeting during the morning and in the afternoon the public attendance was well over 70 persons that have been wanting information about this ongoing topic. 
One main theme was concerning the news release of the BGAFFP (Base Gagetown and Area Fact-Finding Project)  http://www.basegagetownandareafactfindersproject.ca/index-e.html. The most recent news release has played down any health effects that may have been experienced by the victims. These newer releases have also stated that the areas of Gagetown, that are as much as 100 times the acceptable contamination, have been reopened because "they pose no health risk".

Talking with the 'older' people that remember the spraying, the smell of the chemicals, the sticky feel of the chemicals and the illnesses the victims report, it is clear that  disbelief is VERY strong. The main theme is still following the path of "DND is still trying to lie and deny, DND is in defensive mode concerning this problem". As time passes, I am sure more truth will be brought out since this 'problem' is not going to go away.... Sandy

PS: My posts are not advertisement or one sided, or at least I hope they are not... I am only wanting to pass on fact so each person can formulate their own thoughts... God Bless our Service Personnel and you doing an excellent job no matter what your tasking might be... God Bless all those that have lost a family member or friend or comrade in Afgan and I don't post my salutes but I do   each member that we carry home. Those that walk home each get a *hug* and I pray they can cope with the horrors they have shared with each other while serving.... GOD BLESS our service members....


----------



## Doreen

Hi Everyone.  Haven't posted in awhile because I lost my password.  Leukemia is still stable (Thank God).  Have done my affadavit and such and just waiting.  I was talking to the Ex and he was refused DVA because they said Gagetown never caused his COPD.  Geez, he rolled around in those fields in the early and mid 60ties and again in the 70ties.  If anyone has any info regarding Agent Orange and COPD it would sure be appreciated.  He is looking for information.  Thanks much.  Hope everyone is coping well.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

I hope 'the Ex' stays his path to get the help he may need. Have you thought to contact those at AOAC http://www.agentorangealert.com/index.html  I have not seen any info concerning COPD but others may have...  One thing I have run into is that many older service members have obtained help from DVA due to the exposure to contaminants that may have been present in some of the smoke that was used during 'Smoke Hut Training' perhaps this is a path that the Ex could follow since I have no idea what was contained in the smoke that was produced for the training. I also think there are many more illnesses that can be attributed to the *CHEMICALS * that were sprayed at CFB Gagetown during the years of 1956-1984 than what DVA is looking at. All we have seen so far at AOAC, is that the government wants to *ONLY * consider the nick-named chemical combinations known as AgentOrange and AgentPurple that were sprayed in 1966 and 1967. There were many more chemicals sprayed, as has been proven, and these chemicals must all be looked at to get the true picture. 

We, at AOAC (AgentOrangeAssociation of Canada), are recommending that DVA claimants use the words "Chemical Exposure" and NOT AgentOrange since there are many more chemicals involved with the 'Sprayings at CFB Gagetown'. Once a claim goes in with the words AgentOrange attached to it, DVA rejects because they have yet to recieve any guidance as to how or who to accept for assistance... Hopefully this will change in the future and the sooner the better.

It is good to hear that your Leukemia is still stable....


----------



## Doreen

Thanks for the info and quick response.  I have given him other information and it would make it so much easier if he would learn to use the computer.  He has one but doesn't use it.  I have printed off the info.  Thanks again.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

http://www.legionmagazine.com/features/militarymatters/06-09.asp#2

Our stories are becoming known as media have begun to pick up information and present it to the public. The url above is for a report printed in the LegionMagazine this month and hopefully more veterans will now gain understanding as to why they might be ill. It also seems that doctors are becoming more aware as well.

I see all this as being SUPER positive because if my husband and his doctors had the understanding that is now being felt.... his life may have been extended and of better quality during the last few years.  I sure hope that some of the noise that I have made in the last 2 years will help others and perhaps prevent them from being ignored by DVA and medical services. 

Even though I have positive feelings, for the first time in a long time, this black mark on history is far from being over. much more to come....


----------



## Sandy Skipton

The president of AOAC (AgentOrangeAssociation of Canada) announced the following on Sept 25th. 




> Justice J Scurfield of the Court of Queen's Bench Manitoba ruled that leave is granted for the plaintiff to proceed to a certification hearing in the civil action suit regarding defoliant spraying at CFB Gagetown.
> 
> The benefits of the Manitoba decision are:
> 
> 1. Now there will be just one action for all of Canada which will speed up the process.
> 
> 2. If the matter were to go to court in New Brunswick, the Representative Plaintiffs are at risk of paying costs while no costs can be ordered in Manitoba.
> 
> 3. Manitoba has class action legislation and New Brunswick does not so the process can move more quickly in Manitoba.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

The below is a test video and sound clip arranged by Art Connolly, VP of the Agent Orange Association of Canada (AOAC), to place a face on some of the Victims of the Gagetown Atrocity. This is the first of many videos in the works.... We expect to have professionally produced advertisement clips completed in the new year and we know of about 3 documentaries that are under production to retain the history of this black mark on our Canadian and Military past. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jCfwHAJTSA

Comments are welcomed... Thank you for watching


----------



## 3rd Horseman

3rd Horseman said:
			
		

> Thankyou armyvern for the clarification.
> 
> To date I believe about 950 claims, it would appear only a handful (11 rings a bell) have been granted  a pension. But I caution all on the meaning of that, since pensions are private we don't know that they were granted for, could be AO could be something else, we only know they were granted. It would be nice to see the DVA wording on the BG Sellers pension, it may not be for AO in Gagetown it could be for AO in Vietnam during the observer mission of the early 70s. Or it could be for something associated with AO in Gagetown. Possibly it is for something completely different but aggravated by field time in Gagetown....? I would suggest printing it, then if it is valid, let all the soldiers of the Black Watch get it because if a CO got it for I would suggest never being near a blade of grass in the area other than to have tea and a sherry while watching the troops exercise then they all should get it.
> 
> What I do know for fact is that my local neighbours who worked on the spray program are sick, it would appear that illness is associated with long term exposure to the spraying. They worked as mixers and nozzle holders during the project for years. They deserve a close look and IMHO compensation, but the soldiers who drove by the area or walked through it that is a stretch.* More of a stretch is those that spent a day visiting from away up on base proper not even in the field making a claim.*
> Heres to a resolution of this issue and people who don't know the details calling myself and my friends creators of a cover up and lier's to hide the truth. Instead in time they may say thankyou for always telling the truth about the issue and not covering anything up...{sorry we were wrong} it woud be nice to hear one day.



I thought it was time to counter the one sided propaganda of the AOAC. Now with the latest results showing no issue for soldiers it only rings louder what has been said in the past. The highlighted area is for Miksam.

Edit typos


----------



## Cloud Cover

MIKsam said:
			
		

> ... Victims of the Gagetown Atrocity. ..



Interesting noun. As far as I can tell from the AOAC website, there were no intentional acts of cruelty against humans [an "atrocity"] involved in the spraying of any chemicals at CFB Gagetown. The use of the word is inflammatory and inaccurate and if you are using it to describe the actions of particular persons at DND then it is also defamatory .... so ... not here please. 

Good luck and God bless with all the rest ... 

W601


----------



## francois

Hi everyone
My name is Mimi and im doing this for my husband as he is unable to write or walk.He was exposed to Agent Orange in gagetown in 1963 and has left him
with many chronic diseases.
Recently the court in Manitoba has authorised a collectif to pursue a law suit
against the government.
If anyone can help in getting contact information about their lawyer or a 
collective member i would greatly appreciate it.
I can be reached by e-mail at....francoisblais51@sympatico.ca
Any help would be greatly appreciated.Thank you all.

Awife in distress
Mimi


----------



## Young KH

The word Atrocity is not being used to describe anyone in the Military. It is however being used to describe the outcome of poorly thought out Government defoliation program that took place at CFB Gagetown.

There may not have been and intent on anybodies part when the spraying first took place but keeping it a secrete for 50 years after they did know of the affects and continuing to spray chemicals up to and including this year, was done with the knowledge that Canadian personal could be hurt by the use of this stuff, meeting your definition of “intentional acts of cruelty against humans “.

We understand that the Military was doing what they were told and were given false information about this stuff. We also know that it is not the Army’s place to inform the public but it is the responsibility of the Government of Canada to do so.

The Government of Canada didn’t have the right to contaminate as much as 315,000 soldiers and then deny that it ever took place and that Sir. is an ATROCITY and it is also a travesty as well as an affront on Democracy


----------



## Young KH

francois said:
			
		

> Hi everyone
> My name is Mimi and im doing this for my husband as he is unable to write or walk.He was exposed to Agent Orange in gagetown in 1963 and has left him
> with many chronic diseases.
> Recently the court in Manitoba has authorised a collectif to pursue a law suit
> against the government.
> If anyone can help in getting contact information about their lawyer or a
> collective member i would greatly appreciate it.
> I can be reached by e-mail at....francoisblais51@sympatico.ca
> Any help would be greatly appreciated.Thank you all.
> 
> Awife in distress
> *****************************
> Hello Mimi,
> 
> 
> 
> The law firm involved is at , email The Merchant Group at www.merchantlaw.com <http://www.merchantlaw.com/>  or call Tony Merchant or Casey Churko at 1-888-567-7777.
> 
> 
> 
> But you can also join using www.agentorangealert.com <http://www.agentorangealert.com/>   web site. The exact page is http://www.agentorangealert.com/classactionlawsuit.html
> 
> 
> 
> Ken Young.
> 
> Mimi


----------



## GUNS

This Agent Orange thing has been around for awhile, I believe it was brought to light in 1984( I stand to be corrected on that). As with many people on this site, I was in Gagetown when this spraying took place. Was I exposed to chemical spraying? Most likely. Will it eventually harm me? I don't know. I have read news items about former soldiers that claim their illness is the result of AO, who am I to say otherwise. 
You may call me a "Cold War" soldier as back in those days there were no battles to fight or real peacekeeping missions that would occupy our time. We spent much of our time in the field training and as such were exposed to chemically treated soil. Does anyone remember the fog truck going through the PMQ's in the summer time and the children running in its wake, playing in the mist.
Horsemen said that there are people claiming to be ill from AO even though they may have only passed through the area briefly. I am not a Dr. so I can not comment on how much of this stuff you need to come in contact with to be affected by it.
God forbid I ever find myself in the position of having contracted one of the 11 known medical conditions which are known to be caused by AO. I would like to know that a policy is in place to look after me and my family.
If AOAC's intent is to bring this about for former and present day soldiers I have no problem with that. As for how they word their news releases, it isn't my concern, Freedom of Expression. I can chose to read it or ignore it.
I personally would not criticize any organization who's main purpose is to assist former soldiers to have a better way of life.
This is my opinion on this subject.

Just a footnote: it must be of interest to some people because there are close to 14,000 hits to the site.


----------



## Cloud Cover

For the record, nobody is criticizing what the AOAC are attempting to accomplish for the sick and the dying, the intentions are clearly honorable, but the fact remains that no "atrocity" was committed. The use of AO and the alleged "cover up" may well constitute a travesty several orders of magnitude beyond the pale of "tragic", but it is no 'atrocity" in the ordinary sense. Only the facts relating to the government response will confirm or deny that label. 

If you wish to sustain the accuracy of your claim to an atrocity, then please point to some authoritative endorsement of such a claim in the present case, otherwise leave it alone.  The point is this - go ahead on your own web site and use all the words you wish to use - that is your choice, your right and at your own risk. I'm a busy guy, and when you come to this web site and say these things you bring risk to an innocent third party and that just makes work for me.  So I will ask one more time to please grant this request - just post your information and leave the rhetoric at the door.    

Best of luck, and say hi to Casey at Merchant for me. 

Cheers

W601


----------



## GUNS

Interesting news item on today's CBC Newsworld.

England has agreed to provide a pension to a former British soldier that trained in Gagetown during the spray program. It is suggested that this move will open the gates for more British soldiers to seek a pension as a result of the Gagetown spraying.

This does not bode well for our own government who have ignored soldiers calls for compension as a result of having medical conditions associated with the Gagetown spray program.

Harper's and Thompson's pre-election promise to look after these soldiers if elected has totally been ignored. The present government has to immediately announce a plan to deal with this situation and not wait for the next election so they can use the sick and dying soldiers from the Gagetown spray program as a election ploy.

What excuse will the ineffective VA Minister come up with now? It took England less than a year to offer a pension and it has been twenty-three years(1984) since the spray program can to light and only one soldier(Brig. Gen. Seller) was given a pension.

Shame,shame


----------



## Sandy Skipton

CBC "The Current" will be covering the story of 'Canada and its connection to AgentOrange' on Monday April 30. 

The guests are expected to be: 
Tom Boivin who is with the Hatfield Group who were involved with cleanup efforts in Vietnam, Keith Pilmoor the UK Veteran who recently received a UK VA pension for exposure at Gagetown, 
Art Connolly who is the Vice-President of AOAC (AgentOrange Association of Canada.

"The Current" can be heard at your convenience since they store their program online
Broadcast time:  Weekdays at 8:30 a.m. (9:00 NT) on CBC Radio One
http://www.cbc.ca/listen/index.html
http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/


----------



## GUNS

I never noticed a Representative from VA as being in on the interview. Would be nice to hear their side of the story.

We will only hear one side of this Agent Orange issue.


----------



## Young KH

The VAC were contacted by CBC and somewhat like the past two years have decided to remain closed mouthed on this subject. I believe (and I am paraphrasing here from someone else’s second hand knowledge) The VAC stated that “this topic was too political for them to participate”.

But in my opinion I find it kind of strange that the VAC finds Veterans and their pensions too political to comment on.


----------



## GUNS

" to political for them to participate"- sounds like VA know they have a very serious issue here and have not formed a plan to address it.

As someone who served in Gagetown, it would be nice to know that in the event I develop a medical condition as a result of the Gagetown spraying. VA will have a policy in place to look after me and others that find themselves in the same situation.

The term, " forgotten veterans" comes to mind


----------



## GUNS

Read an article recently about the British soldier that received a pension due to being in Canada during the spraying of Agent Orange.
The British Legion are supporting  21 veterans that have a medical condition that can be attributed to Agent Orange and being in Canada.
One section of the article mentioned that the British Service Personnel and  Veterans Agency, the equivalent to our Veteran Affairs, has a 53 working day policy in processing claims. I am curious to know what the average processing time is for our Veteran Affairs.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

A person may get a response within a reasonable time but the whole process can take up to several years... (example, response might be that more information is required or a specialist must be seen to submit further information and it can take months to arrange an appointment for this) I have no idea what the timeline should be for any claim since I can not find any information that DVA has shared with the public on that type of statistic. I expect that if everything goes smooth, and DVA is not working on backlogs, some claims could be completed within the same timeframe as UK say they do... If Canada Post is also moving things along smoothy....

I personnally know of 4 claims 
2 have taken about 3 years and are still within the system
1 has taken about 5 years and has just been approved for pension
1 took about 3 months and was approved for pension

Veterans Affairs :  2005-2006 Performance Report

http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/dpr-rmr/0506/VAC-ACC/VAC-ACC_e.pdf

a couple of quotes from the report:


> To assist with management of the pension backlog and to facilitate processing
> of the high volume of incoming applications, a number of streamlining
> initiatives were introduced. In spite of the higher than projected work intake
> and the significant reduction in production time, due to pension staff
> involvement and training in the new programs and the Table of Disabilities,
> staff processed 25% more pension applications than anticipated (approximately
> 35,000 pension applications were processed in 2005-2006) and reduced the
> pension backlog by 18% resulting in a national pending of 12,137 applications
> as of April 1, 2006. The most notable reduction was in Head Office Pension
> Adjudication where pendings reduced from 4,701 on April 1, 2005 to 2,139 on
> April 2, 2006 (55% reduction in pendings during 2005-2006).
> 
> For the Veterans Review and Appeal Board, 90% of 4,870 Reviews were
> finalized within 31 calendar days, and 90% of 1,532 Appeals were finalized
> within 29.1 calendar days. The Board’s service standard is to provide a written
> decision within 30 days from the hearing date. A total of 388 claims were not
> finalized within 60 days. Of this number, 79 written communications were
> sent to appellants to advise them that the decision would be delayed.
> Decisions on 117 cases were issued shortly after the 60-day time frame.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

AOAC (Agent Orange Association of Canada) have released their May NewsLetter to the internet and it can be found at 
http://www.agentorangealert.com/images/May07NewsFinal.pdf

This edition includes a story concerning the UK Veterans affairs awarding a 'war pension' to Keith Pilmoor, a British soldier, for health problems due to the spraying of chemicals at CFB Gagetown


----------



## formerarmybrat23

http://www.canadaeast.com/ce2/docroot/article.php?articleID=11823
Pressure building to compensate spraying victims
By CHRIS MORRIS
The Canadian Press 
Published Thursday June 14th, 2007 
Appeared on page A3




> Pressure is building on the federal Conservatives to make good on a promise to compensate people who say they were harmed by defoliant sprays at Canadian Forces Base Gagetown.
> 
> Federal Liberal Albina Guarnieri said Wednesday that Prime Minister Stephen Harper and his government are deliberately stalling on a commitment to compensate those affected by the testing of defoliants such as Agent Orange and Agent Purple in the 1960s.
> 
> Guarnieri, the party's veterans affairs critic, has raised the issue in the House of Commons, pointing out that both Harper and Veterans Affairs Minister Greg Thompson pledged speedy cash settlements in the controversy surrounding the testing of combat defoliants, as well as other powerful herbicides used at the base over the years.
> 
> She said it appears the federal Conservatives are renegging on yet another promise they made in Atlantic Canada during the last election, referring to the fight over the Atlantic Accord and equalization.
> 
> "They raised expectations with a promise they have failed to fulfil," she said in an interview. "It's shameful."
> 
> The federal government hasn't explained why it is taking so long to produce an Agent Orange compensation package.
> 
> Thompson said he'll get the job done and he has talked about compensation of $20,000 to $24,000 per individual claimant.
> 
> But his original prediction of an announcement by early 2007 has passed and he isn't saying when a package will be presented.
> 
> "This file has been around for 40 years," Thompson said in Parliament in response to a question this week from Guarnieri.
> 
> "The Liberals fell asleep on it. We will get it done."
> 
> Guarnieri said it's suspicious that Thompson has been unable to keep a deadline on the issue.
> 
> "The question is whether Thompson has really failed to deliver a plan or whether the prime minister has rejected that plan," she said.
> 
> Over several days in 1966 and 1967, the U.S. military carried out tests at Gagetown of a number of defoliating agents, including Agents Orange, White and Purple.
> 
> The chemicals were widely applied during the Vietnam War to clear jungles and have since been linked to a number of human health problems, including chronic lymphocytic leukemia, soft-tissue sarcoma, non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, Hodgkin's disease and chloracne.
> 
> U.S. studies also suggest that exposure to the chemical defoliants could be related to a number of forms of cancers as well as diabetes.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

> June 23, 2007
> 
> From: Kenneth Dobbie
> 
> Today, June 23, marks the second anniversary of the Canadian Forces Base Gagetown Theatre Public Meeting on Agent Orange. This was the first time in Canadian history that the use of Agent Orange and other deadly carcinogens used at CFB Gagetown were discussed in a public forum.
> 
> DND’s own documents outlining the amount of catastrophic sprayings were read out loud to the Canadian media and the public via the CBC's live program CBC Newsworld, in addition, the meeting was covered by Global TV and CTV. The video clip link at the end of this letter is from the CBC National.
> 
> Because this was such an historic meeting, it is important for the public to be reminded of exactly what went on at this meeting. Over 1.3 million litres of dioxin and hexachlorobenzene were sprayed on CFB Gagetown. What we did not know at the time of the meeting was the fact that another 2 million pounds of hexachlorobenzene contaminated herbicides were sprayed on the base in addition to what is discussed in the video.
> 
> Today, two years later, the government is fighting us all the way to the Supreme court to have our motion for a trial and a public inquiry into the poisoning of hundreds of thousands of people denied.
> 
> See what went on at the meeting for yourself.
> 
> If you cannot link to the video by clicking on the link below, please cut and paste the link into your browser and be enlightened all over again. The running time is approximately 2.51 minutes.
> 
> Kenneth Dobbie
> President
> Agent Orange Association of Canada



The link referred to will not post on this forum... If you wish to see the video, please check the http://www.agentorangealert.com/forum.html website and scroll down to the entry of June 23rd


----------



## Sandy Skipton

http://www.green.ca:80/en/releases/06.26.2007




> 06.26.2007
> Green Party Leader takes aim at recent Agent Orange Report
> Risk assessment report is a whitewash of a major scandal
> 
> HALIFAX - Elizabeth May, leader of the Green Party of Canada, will use the occasion of her speech this evening at the Global Ecological Integrity Group's 15th conference to critique the most recent report on the health effects of spraying Agent Orange and other herbicides at Camp Gagetown.
> 
> “The so-called health risk assessment released on June 21st is not useful as a guide to governmental responsibilities to compensate workers and by-standers. It amounts to a predictable whitewash of a major health scandal,” said Ms. May.
> 
> Ms. May has taught at Dalhousie University in the areas of health and the environment. She has reviewed the study prepared by the consulting firm, CANTOX.
> 
> “I was initially skeptical because CANTOX has a reputation of never finding a risk when conducting health risk assessments. CANTOX found no risk in an area near the coke ovens site in Sydney that later was found to have arsenic levels high enough to be an acute health hazard. CANTOX ruled no risk to health in expanding the St. John Irving refinery and no risk in adding caffeine to children’s soda pop,” said Ms. May. “The fact that one of CANTOX’s founders, Dr. Len Ritter, was personally responsible as a civil servant more than twenty years ago for providing advice to the federal government that 2,4,5-T was safe when the US banned it, caused me some concern.” Her concerns were reinforced in reading the report.
> 
> “Far from the reassuring pronouncements of the press release, the report makes it clear that there were far too many uncertainties about the volumes of spray used and the exposure rates to reach any firm conclusions. Nevertheless, CANTOX’s methodology minimized risks by excluding key factors,” said Ms. May.
> 
> In her review of the CANTOX Agent Orange report, Ms. May noted the following flaws:
> 
> Consideration of cumulative exposure and synergistic effects of many different exposures to many different substances was judged too complicated to assess and was omitted;
> 
> CANTOX assumed a rapid rate of decomposition in the environment, essentially assuming that each year’s dose of herbicides had vanished from the environment before the next year’s spray programme;
> 
> CANTOX made no reference to the toxicity, fate, and persistence of the well-known contaminants in the herbicides, particularly the hundreds of isomers of dioxins and furans. 2, 4, 5-T was well-known to be contaminated with 2, 3, 7, 8-TCDD, the most toxic compound ever synthesized. It bio-accumulates, as do other dioxins and furans. This factor was ignored;
> 
> The amount of drift from airborne application was substantially minimized;
> 
> The potential for groundwater contamination was excluded despite the fact that herbicides, such as alachlor, have been found in groundwater and that, once in groundwater, removed from sun and bacteriological action, tend to remain for long periods of time;
> 
> The potential for exposure through eating local fish was excluded, even though, as noted, given dioxin and furan bio-accumulation this might have been a serious route of exposure.
> 
> The potential for the herbicides to volatilize following application was ruled “unlikely” and not considered, even though volatilization of phenoxy herbicides has been considered a real world factor in other studies;
> 
> Take home exposure from clothing of workers was excluded;
> 
> The CANTOX review minimized the known health effects of the herbicides in question. 2,4-D and 2,4,5,-T known as Agent Orange have been linked to numerous birth defects (spina bifida and anencephaly) as well as miscarriages, cancer and chloracne. These health impacts were not included, as CANTOX’s review of health effects for these substances stressed “increased decreased body weight gain,” “nausea, headache, muscle cramps and fever,” etc.
> 
> The extensive medical literature from observed health problems in Vietnam veterans, civilians in Vietnam, women with high rates of miscarriages and birth defects in the US Pacific Northwest, epidemiological work from Sweden, as well as studies from Kansas and Saskatchewan on the link between phenoxy herbicides and soft tissue sarcomas and malignant lymphomas are not mentioned.
> 
> “When the report was released five days ago, Art Connelly of the Agent Orange Association called the report a ‘public relations ploy’” noted Ms. May. “It is clearly that, but it is more. It is an outrage typical of the increasingly corrupted practice known as Health Risk assessment. We must move public policy away from these bogus theoretical models of risk and back to the essential principles of public health – the prevention of harm.”
> 
> -30-


----------



## Sandy Skipton

http://www.ndp.ca:80/page/5538



> NDP maps out way forward for victims of Agent Orange
> Fri 20 Jul 2007
> 
> FREDERICTON – In the absence of leadership from the Conservative government on treating victims of Agent Orange fairly, NDP Veterans Affairs Critic Peter Stoffer (Sackville – Eastern Shore) has taken the initiative to outline the measures that the government must take to address the issue. Stoffer spoke about how to move forward at a press conference with representatives from the Agent Orange Association of Canada.
> 
> “Only a full public inquiry into Agent Orange contamination and the saga of victims’ attempts to get compensation will bring the truth out into the open,” said Stoffer. “The Cantox report that the government commissioned was vague and altogether unsatisfactory – people want to know what really happened.”
> 
> Many victims of Agent Orange and other contaminants have already died without ever receiving compensation. The process for receiving compensation is covered in red tape, and the onus put on the victims to prove that they qualify is unfair and miserly. Stoffer is calling on the government to compensate anyone who has symptoms that can be correlated with exposure to Agent Orange.
> 
> "We have been advised that the compensation package will only be offered to victims who were at Gagetown in 1966 and 1967,” said Jim Cadger, Chairman of the Agent Orange Membership. “This blatantly ignores the other 26 years of deadly defoliant spraying that happened between 1956 to 1984 at Gagetown. This is a 50 year cover-up by all governments since 1956."
> 
> “Conservative Veterans Affairs Minister Greg Thompson promised to establish a program to deal with compensation by the end of 2006. Then he stalled by waiting for the totally inadequate Cantox report,” said Stoffer.
> 
> “There has been too much stalling, too much negligence, and too many lives ruined by the government’s lack of action. Ordinary people are looking at this as just another example of the Conservatives failing to live up to their promises. It’s time for the government to start treating these people fairly – start awarding compensation, and call a public inquiry,” concluded Stoffer.


----------



## 1feral1

Out of the 50,000 pers Australia sent to SVN from 1962-73, many were exposed to Agant Orange also.

Not long ago, I was at the brookside Sizzler near the Gallipoli Barracks in Brisbane. It was lunch, and I had my uniform on. I had a rather skinny unhealthy, but well dresssed bloke approach me, who thanked me for what we had been doing in Iraq.

He had said he was a Viet Nam Vet, had serious health problems, and cancer for Agent Orange. I acknowledged him, and he went back to his table wit his wife.

Upon leaving back to work, I went over to his table and said 'mate I should be thanking you for what you did', and I wished him well.

That image of him coming over to my table has left an imprint in my hard drive. I won't forget that. That generatrion has given much more than ours, and had to wait til 1988 to be recognised.

Regards,

Wes


----------



## Sandy Skipton

http://thechronicleherald.ca/Canada/849599.html



> Green firm wants retraction from May
> 
> 
> FREDERICTON — An environmental company is not ruling out legal action if Green Party Leader Elizabeth May does not retract comments she made in Halifax about the company and its work at CFB Gagetown.
> 
> "It will receive consideration," said Elliot Sigal, executive vice-president of Intrinsik, which studied the impact of the defoliant Agent Orange on human health.
> 
> Ms. May commented about the company in a speech in Halifax and in a radio interview.
> 
> "We felt that in her current position as a federal party leader she shouldn’t make incorrect allegations about a Canadian company that was working in good faith for the (federal) government on an important project," said Mr. Sigal.
> 
> Intrinsik’s work at Gagetown found that chemical herbicides posed no risk in most cases.
> 
> Ms. May questioned Intrinsik’s reputation and the quality of its work.
> 
> "We stand by the work that we did," said Mr. Sigal. "As I said, her statements about the work were completely untrue."
> 
> Ms. May told The Chronicle-Herald on Wednesday she stands by what she said.
> 
> Ms. May said if she made any factual errors she is willing to acknowledge it, but will not retract her remarks.
> 
> "The health risk assessment they did on Agent Orange in Gagetown was as I said," she said. "They made a number of assumptions that reduced the likelihood that they would find an unacceptable risk."




Intrinsik was known as CanTox when they did the study and report concerning chemical exposure at Gagetown


----------



## Sandy Skipton

http://www.merchantlaw.com/Judgment_of_Barry_J_Aug_2007.pdf

News Release


> Today, August 1, 2007, a second Court in Canada granted leave to certify our Class Action Lawsuit against our present and past Governments for the spraying of dangerous levels of dioxin and hexachlorobenzene on CFB Gagetown.
> 
> We successfully defeated the Government, and their partners in this disgrace, Monsanto and Dow, in the Supreme Court of Newfoundland and Labrador. Justice Barry gave us leave to certify the class action stating:
> 
> “The class definition shall read: “All individuals who were at CFB Gagetown between 1956 and the present and who claim they were exposed to dangerous levels of dioxin or HCB (Hexachlorobenzene) while on the Base”
> 
> I don’t know which is more vile, our Government for denying justice to us who are sick, dying and who have had family die or for the fact that they have enlisted the help of two of the biggest chemical companies in the world to deny proper justice. The Government is going to appeal our first successful decision by the Manitoba Court of Queen’s Bench all the way to the Supreme Court.
> 
> I would expect that our Government or their allies, Dow or Monsanto or both would appeal the decision of Justice Barry of the Supreme Court of Newfoundland and Labrador
> 
> Although we still have a tough battle ahead of us, in the end we will win. During this time ahead many of us who are sick will die. Many of us will not see the justice they deserve. This is a hard fact, but nevertheless we who survive to see justice will celebrate the lives of each of us who will not be there to see the outcome.
> 
> Having said that, it is deplorable and repulsive that I even have to say that many of us will die while awaiting justice.
> 
> If our Government Members were Honourable as their titles state, then they would have done the right thing two years ago when we made public their own documents showing the world that Canadian Governments over a period of 28 years had continuously poisoned the environment and hundreds of thousands of their own troops and civilians.
> 
> Yet they are fighting us instead of helping us. Where in the name of God is our Canada?
> 
> Kenneth Dobbie
> 
> President
> Agent Orange Association of Canada


----------



## 3rd Herd

The Usual Disclaimer:
http://www.nanaimobulletin.com/portals-code/list.cgi?paper=51&cat=23&id=1043423&more=0
Nanaimo veteran seeking answers
By Toby Gorman
the News Bulletin
Aug 14 2007

Class action lawsuit gets court approval 

There is a ray of hope, a slim ray, that James Johnston might find out what caused the cancer that is killing him. 

A class action lawsuit by more than 2,000 veterans and civilians who worked at CFB Gagetown is approved to proceed in Newfoundland and Labrador. 

Johnston, who worked at Gagetown from 1958 to 1971 with the 2nd Battalion Black Watch and whose wartime role was stretcher bearer, hopes that will spark similar approvals across the country, including B.C. 

The suit, initiated by veteran Ken Dobbie, claims the group was harmed by exposure to Agent Orange and other defoliants on the base between the 1950s and 1980s. 

Johnston, 66, signed on to the suit simply to find answers. 

“I don’t regret my time with the military and I have nothing against the military,” said Johnston, who moved to Nanaimo with his family 20 years ago. 

“I still love the military and I would do it all over again. It was my life for 34 years. But I feel as though it has turned its back on me, at least the government has. 

“I never asked for anything and all I want now is an answer.” 

Johnston wants to know why he now has non-Hodgkins lymphoma, a group of cancers that harm the immune system. 

Johnston also suffers from various other cancers and has undergone painful surgeries and chemotherapy. 

His family has no history of cancer. He said the Department of Veterans Affairs has done nothing to assist him. 

“Non-Hodgkins lymphoma is a trademark illness associated with this case,” said Casey Churko, a litigator involved in the suit. 

Newfoundland’s Supreme Court decision will pave the way for lawyers to access information that was previously unobtainable, which could see similar lawsuits opened in other provinces. It is alleged the military used defoliants on bases like Gagetown and CFB Suffield that exposed soldiers and civilians to it. 

“My life has been shortened and I want to know why,” said Johnston. “That’s all.”


----------



## Sandy Skipton

The Canadian government and the Pharmacia Corporation have filed appeals against the successful certification process

If you are interested in what points of the certification are being appealed,
The government appeal paper can be viewed at:

http://www.agentorangealert.com/images/Government_Appeal.pdf

The Pharmacia Corporation appeal paper can be viewed at:

http://www.agentorangealert.com/images/Notice_of_Appeal.pdf

Note: Leave to Appeal will be heard by the Judge presiding in Chambers at the Court of Appeal at St.John's, Newfoundland, on the 18 of September 2007 at 10:00am or as soon after that as the Application can be heard.


----------



## GUNS

Will the proceedings be open to the public.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

Your question was posed to the lawyers involved with the following response



> “Chambers”  refers to one judge of the Court of Appeal hearing applications for various relief.
> The Chambers applications are still heard in public.



I have no personal experience with courts but I understand that any court/judge can open/close the doors to the public if they deem it to be necessary... If you get the opportunity to attend this appeal hearing, I would be interested in hearing about your opinion... Thank you for your interest


----------



## Sandy Skipton

Media Advisory by BGAFFP (Base Gagetown & Area Fact Finding Project)

Fact-Finder to release final report related to herbicide testing and use at CFB Gagetown
August 17, 2007 
Dr. Dennis Furlong, Fact-finding Outreach Coordinator, will hold a press conference at 11:00 am on Tuesday, August 21, 2007 at the Oromocto Days Inn. Dr. Furlong will present the most recent findings with regards to the testing and use of herbicides at CFB Gagetown.
The press conference will focus on the final report from Task 3.
Task 3B was comprised of a literature review and a descriptive epidemiological study to determine if, over time, the communities near CFB Gagetown had a higher incidence of illnesses, as compared to the province of New Brunswick. 
A consolidated Task 3 report will also be made public.
The reports will be embargoed until 11:00am.

-30-
Note to editors:
A media room at the Days Inn will be opened at 9:00am and the Task 3B report will be made available.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


----------



## Sandy Skipton

http://www.680news.com/news/national/article.jsp?content=n082027A#



> Latest Agent Orange report to address health patterns at N.B. base
> August 20, 2007 - 13:17
> OROMOCTO, N.B. (CP) - People who feel their health was harmed by exposure to herbicides at a New Brunswick military base are skeptical the final report on the spray programs will have much impact on Ottawa's compensation plans.
> Military veteran Wayne Cardinal and Art Connolly of the Agent Orange Association of Canada say they believe the federal government has already decided about the amount of compensation to offer as a result of toxic herbicides used at Canadian Forces Base Gagetown from the 1950s to the 1980s.
> Cardinal says the final report, to be released on Tuesday, may serve only to limit the number of people who qualify for a federal settlement package, expected to be between $20,000 and $24,000 per person.
> Dr. Dennis Furlong, co-ordinator of the federal fact-finding project on herbicide spraying at the base, will reveal the results of a study to determine whether communities near Gagetown had a higher incidence of illnesses, as compared to the province of New Brunswick.
> But Connolly says military families who lived in those communities are highly mobile, and it would be difficult to get an accurate picture of the people who could have been affected by the spray programs.
> The U.S. military briefly tested Agent Orange and other combat defoliants at the base in the 1960s.
> In addition, herbicides were applied regularly to cut down brush on the base.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

Art Connolly, Vice-President of the Agent Orange Association of Canada, will be interviewed on the Tom Young Radio Show Tuesday August 21st at approximately 2 PM Atlantic Time. This is the Saint John NEWS 88.9 Radio station.
It is possible that Dr. Dennis Furlong, co-ordinator of the federal fact-finding project, will also be heard

This is normally a phone-in program to permit participation of the listeners
Time slot is approximately 2:00 P.M. Atlantic. You can listen live. 

http://www.news889.com/index.jsp



> Final agent orange report will be released today
> August 21, 2007 - 4:54 am
> By: Denise Barkhouse-news 88-9 staff
> Fredericton- The final report from the agent orange fact finding mission's task three will be made public later this morning.
> It will focus on whether , if over time, communities near CFB Gagetown had a higher incidence of illness compared to other communities within the province, but the Agent Orange association is sceptical.
> Agent Orange Association of Canada vice president art Connolly is convinced the report will limit compensation for the defoliant spraying to service members who were serving at the time.
> "It will be very minimal in the amount of numbers of soldiers that will be awarded compensation, and we are under the understanding that if any soldiers accepts compensation package, they will forfeit their right to continue with the class action lawsuit."
> Connolly believes the government has also already decided that compensation packages will range between twenty to twenty four thousand dollars per person.
> He says if all goes down as he expects, the association will continue to move forward with its class action lawsuit
> Veteran Affairs minister Greg Thompson has stated the agent orange issue will be wrapped up by the end of this year.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

*Submitted with permission of the Author.* 
His comments do not reflect my opinion but I have felt attacked when I share my opinion and that is why I have only been posting media articles pertaining to the ongoing story about the exposures and the victims.... 




> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 10:01 PM
> Subject: MLA: TODAY'S REPORT SUPPORTS COMPENSATION
> 
> MLA: TODAY'S REPORT SUPPORTS COMPENSATION
> 
> Jody Carr's Response to Today's Fact Finders Report
> 
> August 21, 2007
> 
> Today's report regarding the potential health effects from the use of herbicides used at CFB Gagetown from 1952 to the present is but only one of several pieces in a very large puzzle.  There has been a great deal of work undertaken by the previous and current governments.   The Minister of Veterans Affairs, Greg Thompson, stated publicly compensation will be announced "soon".
> 
> With the release of today's report I am convinced there will indeed be compensation provided by the Federal Government.  Today's report, in my estimation, provided information weighing heavily in favour of providing compensation, especially to those who worked at Base Gagetown or lived very very close to spray areas and were repeatedly directly exposed to herbicides.  Here is why I conclude this:
> 
> Three points I gathered as being very important from today's release are:
> 
> 1. It stated in the Summary Report that using the US IMO standards, there was sufficient evidence to support conclusions of positive associations between exposure to chlorophenoxy herbicides used at Base Gagetown (especially in the earlier years when dioxin was a contaminant) and the development of soft tissue sarcoma, non-Hodgkin's lymphoma and other adverse health outcomes sited on page 3 and,
> 
> 2. Exposure to chlorophenoxy (dioxin-laced) chemicals did occur, however there were no concrete conclusions made regarding the "level or magnitude" of the exposures and no conclusions on the likelihood of causal of illness.  Thus, in my opinion, this leaves the benefit of the doubt to those more directly exposed requiring compensation who have experienced an IMO illness as described in the summary report page 3 and finally,
> 
> 3. Since 1980, the greater Base Gagetown Region in general has seen no greater incidence of cancer compared to other regions of New Brunswick,
> 
> 1. The summary report from today on Page 3 provided highlights/conclusions about the health associations with herbicides used at Base Gagetown.
> 
> It states on page 3:
> 
> "Using the US Institute of Medicine evaluation of evidence criteria, a thorough Scientific Literature Review of the published epidemiological studies about the health effects associated with the herbicides used at CFB Gagetown determined that...there was sufficient evidence, however, to support conclusions of positive associations between exposure to chlorophenoxy herbicides and the development of soft tissue sarcoma and non-Hodgkin's lymphoma.  In earlier years, chlorophenoxy herbicides were known to have contained manufacturing impurities, including dioxin as contaminants.  There was also preliminary evidence of positive associations between exposure to chlorophenoxy herbicides and laryngeal cancer, breast cancer, prostate cancer, Hodgkin's disease, multiple myeloma, chronic lymphocylic leukemia, spina bifida, spontaneous abortions, Parkinson's disease, and type 2 diabetes."
> 
> DVA currently only recognizes illnesses associated to exposure in 1966 and 1967.  However, as a result of today's report and acknowledgment of sufficient evidence supporting associations with dioxin laced herbicides and certain illnesses, compensation should be expanded to those people exposed beyond the 1966 + 1967 years, especially those exposed prior to 1966.
> 
> 2. In addition, even though the information past 1980 showed no elevated incidence of cancer in this region compared to other areas of NB, the report today stated several times there was insufficient information to make proper conclusions regarding the people more directly exposed to the herbicides.
> 
> Family members: "exposure of family members to pesticides through the take-home pathway can occur...it was not possible to quantify this exposure...with any level of certainty due to the large number of variables and assumptions required.
> 
> Also the summary report states:
> 
> "...the level of uncertainty resulting from the reconstruction of activities, some of which occurred more than 50 years ago, coupled with the uncertainties inherent in standard forward-looking risk assessment, is large.  The expectations regarding the level of precision that this risk assessment exercise can produce...should be limited.  The risk assessment should be considered part of the weight-of-evidence needed to identify groups of individuals who may have been adversely affected by historical exposures."
> 
> "detailed analysis for exposure-related health effects was not possible due to the nature of the data that were available."
> 
> "due to the uncertainty of the data, absence of evidence from these analyses does not necessarily mean that there were no health effects resulting from the exposures to the CFB Gagetown herbicides."
> 
> Therefore, the benefit of the doubt, or the presumptive policy, should be provided to those with IMO illnesses who were exposed to dioxin-laced chlorophenoxy herbicides anytime since 1952 at Base Gagetown.
> 
> 3. The report today stated there is no elevated health incidence using information available since 1980 in the greater Base Gagetown region compared to other regions of New Brunswick.  That is good news for present day residents, in particular.  However, in relation to herbicide exposure since 1952, many people who were directly exposed, especially in the earlier years, left the region prior to 1980.  Also, some people died and/or were diagnosed and treated prior to 1980, thus not being included in the statistics for today's report.
> 
> I will continue to monitor the progress of this file.  I will join many others, including veterans, at the upcoming compensation announcement to listen to the response of the Federal government with the hopes it mirrors adequate compensation for those who suffered adverse health affects due to the exposure of herbicides at Base Gagetown.
> 
> I think the Fact Finder and employees at the Fact Finder office have done the job that was asked of them.  They should be commended for their work and effort.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Jody Carr, MLA
> 
> Oromocto


----------



## GUNS

Around noon today, there will be an announcement of a compensation package for those claiming to have been made ill by the spray program at CFB Gagetown.

Some speculate that the government will offer a onetime pay out of $25 000 which would not cover drugs cost for some veterans for a year.

Shame, Shame.


----------



## GUNS

$20 000 - one time payout - if you live within 5K's of Gagetown during the 1966 and 1967 spraying of AO. 

$20 000 - if you have one of the medical conditions listed by the IMO as being caused by AO and was in Gagetown.

$20 000 is a drop in the bucket considering what some veteran's have to pay out.

This is one way for Thompson to get votes in his riding.

Over a billion for the Native School Scandel.

Over a billion for Tainted Blood Scandel.

Two million for a guy who said he was tortured.

A select few are getting $20 000 while the remainder have to go it alone.

No life like it.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

Received today from Peter Stoffer NDP Federal MP with the request to "Please circulate to your list. Thanks in advance."



> _Evelyn Riggs for Holly Brown Communications Assistant to
> Peter Stoffer, MP
> Sackville-Eastern Shore
> 2900 Hwy #2 Fall River, N.S.
> B2T 1W4
> 
> With deep regret and immense frustration I have seen in the last eighteen months a display of treachery, deceit and negligence that I thought impossible from a Canadian government.  The veterans and their families of this country have been deliberately mislead and deceived by the Conservatives.
> 
> Firstly, in June of 2005, while in opposition, the now Prime Minister Harper, in a written promise to the widow of a WWII veteran, stated that: “A conservative government would immediately extend the Veterans Independence Program services to the widows of all Second World War and Korean War veterans.”
> 
> Secondly, while in opposition, the now Minister of Veteran’s Affairs, Greg Thompson, was quoted in Hansard as saying in September of 2005, “In June, I asked the government of Canada to conduct a public inquiry into the herbicide spraying program at CFB Gagetown from 1956 to 1984.”
> 
> Thirdly, in December of 2006, The Prime Minister stated that his government would: “. . . stand up for full compensation for persons exposed to defoliant spraying from 1956-1984.”
> 
> Finally, the NDP’s Veterans First Motion commits the Canadian government to: 1) Eliminate the “gold-digger” clause; 2) Extend the Veterans Independence Program; 3) Increase the Survivor’s Pension Amount; 4) End the unfair reduction of SISIP; 5) End the clawback of service pensions.  This Motion was passed by a majority of Members in House of Commons last Fall and according to Mr. Harper: “The Prime Minister has the moral responsibility to respect the will of the House . . .” (Hansard. April, 2005)
> 
> The Prime Minister has not done what he promised for the VIP.
> The Minister of Veterans Affairs has refused to call for an inquiry into the spraying at Gagetown.
> The Minister is compensating only some veterans and their families the summer months of 1966 and 1967.
> The Conservative government has failed to respect the will of the House and enact the NDP Veterans First Motion.
> 
> This acceleration of deceit is unconscionable and these politics of perjury are unacceptable.  It took the Liberals thirteen years to reach this level of deception – it has taken the Conservatives under Stephen Harper eighteen months.  The Minister of Veteran’s Affairs has completely failed veterans and their families, if he cannot match his words in government with those in opposition, he should immediately resign.  Our heroes and their families deserve better.
> 
> Peter Stoffer is the Member of Parliament for Sackville-Eastern Shore and the Veterans Affairs Critic for the NDP.  _


----------



## Sandy Skipton

This is posted with the reporters permission, as can be seen. HERE that he refers to is the Here Magazine.... 




> Don't know if you have come across this news service before, but they are pretty solid and very well read internationally. The piece in [HERE} comes out tomorrow.
> Feel free to circulate this to anyone who might be interested.
> Cheers  Chris
> 
> http://ipsnorthamerica.net/news.php?idnews=1055
> 
> 
> 
> CANADA:
> Many Vets Say Agent Orange Settlement Falls Short
> Christopher Arsenault
> 
> HALIFAX, 19 Sep (IPS) - Notorious for its devastating use by the U.S. military in the Vietnam War, the toxic defoliant Agent Orange was tested and sprayed extensively in Canada by both the Canadian military and its U.S. counterpart in the1950s, '60s and '70s
> 
> Recently, some Canadian veterans received a long-awaited compensation package, but veterans' advocates say the reparations do not go nearly far enough.
> 
> In 1966, Ken Dobbie and thousands of other young men spent summers hacking foliage soaked in Agent Orange while clearing forests at Canadian Forces Base Gagetown in the province of New Brunswick.
> 
> 'We never had any protection; we would handle this stuff [brush covered in Agent Orange] with our bare hands,' Dobbie told IPS.
> 
> 'We were never told these chemicals were dangerous, and now I am living in constant pain,' said Dobbie, 58, who is sick with brain atrophy, neurological disorders, thyroid growths, toxic hepatitis, and type 2 diabetes he blames on the time he spent working and living at Gagetown.
> 
> In 1966-67, the U.S. military, invited by the Canadian government, tested Agent Orange and Agent Purple on 83 acres at Base Gagetown.
> 
> The term 'Agent Orange' originated from the 45-gallon orange-striped barrels Monsanto and Dow Chemical used to market and ship the roughly 1:1 chemical mix of dichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4-D) and 2,4,5-trichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4,5-T). Dioxin, a known carcinogen linked to cancer and other ailments, is a component of Agent Orange and Agent Purple.
> 
> Last week, Canada's Veterans Affairs Minister Greg Thompson announced a 94.5-million-dollar compensation package, offering lump sum payments of 19,700 dollars to some veterans and civilians who were at the base in 1966-67. 'We are proud to announce a plan that is fair and shows compassion to the thousands of Canadians whose lives have been so affected,' said Thompson in a statement.
> 
> 'We may never fully know what happened when Agent Orange was tested at the Canadian Forces Base in Gagetown in 1966 and 1967, but our government has always stood firm,' said Thompson, a member of Canada's ruling Conservative Party. The federal government reportedly expects about 4,500 people will qualify for the package.
> 
> Veterans, however, say the Canadian government is using the compensation, which is only available to victims of U.S. spraying in 1966-67, to divert attention from a larger issue.
> 
> Between 1956-1984, the Canadian military sprayed 1,328,767 litres of chemical defoliants on 181,038 acres (an acre is slightly smaller than a football field) of Base Gagetown, including Agent Orange, Agent White and Agent Purple, according to a 1985 declassified briefing to the New Brunswick provincial government obtained by IPS through Canada's Access to Information Act.
> 
> 'Restricting [compensation] payments to a few weeks in 1966-67 is dishonest,' said Tony Merchant, a lawyer representing some 3,000 veterans and civilians in a class action lawsuit against the companies who manufactured Agent Orange, including Dow Chemical and Monsanto, and the Canadian government.
> 
> 'If the companies created dangerous products that hurt people than those companies are responsible,' Art Connolly, a military veteran and vice president of the Agent Orange Association of Canada, told IPS.
> 
> Connolly says the recent compensation package is 'part of a government campaign to bewilder, bedazzle and confuse.'
> 
> Veterans groups are pushing for a full public inquiry into the spraying of defoliants and compensation for all affected people, not just those who were sprayed in 1966-67.
> 
> In 1985, Dow Chemical and other firms paid 180 million dollars to U.S. veterans of the Vietnam War, settling a class action lawsuit. However, both Monsanto and Dow still deny Agent Orange is dangerous.
> 
> 'When we allowed Americans to spray Agent Orange on a Canadian Base in 1966, the U.S. Congress had passed a law barring the spraying of Agent Orange on military bases in the U.S.' Merchant told IPS. 'The problems with these defoliants were known and appropriate care wasn't taken.'
> 
> In April 2007, the British government awarded a special pension to Keith Pilmoor, a British solider, who said exposure to Agent Orange at Canada's Base Gagetown in 1966 left him sick for decades.
> 
> The Department of Veterans Affairs (DVA) in the United States compensates U.S. service members who may have been exposed to Agent Orange during the Vietnam War for health conditions including chloracne, Hodgkin's disease, multiple myeloma, non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, respiratory cancers (lung, bronchus, larynx and trachea), soft-tissue sarcoma, type 2 diabetes and prostate cancer.
> 
> Peter Stoffer, Veterans Affairs critic for Canada's New Democratic Party (social democrats), called the compensation package 'political perjury'.
> 
> 'It is unconscionable that you can treat veterans and civilians in this manner,' Stoffer told IPS. 'Spraying took place in the 50s, 60s and 70s, not just in 1966-67.'
> 
> Canadian Agent Orange survivors have been in close contact with their Vietnamese counterparts.
> 
> In a 2006 interview in Vietnam, Le Duc, manager of the Ho Chi Minh City Agent Orange Association, told IPS, 'I call on the Canadian people to work with the Vietnamese people to take on the American chemical companies.'
> 
> (END/2007)


----------



## Frank Sampson

I was in the US Army 1963-1966, I was with the 1st. Cav. Div, I got agent orange in Vietnam, I have Diabetes and low white cells, if I get ant type of infection and a fever of 101.5 I have to go to the hospital, the VA only gives 20% for this disability, and they only recognized this problem about 5 years or more....


----------



## Sandy Skipton

A letter posted on the internet concerning the trials and heart ache of applying for the compensation package.... The package was supposed to help those that are sick... is it?



> The 3 forms of different rare cancers my siblings have are not covered, I
> have seen mention of at least one of them on the U.S. site referred
> to on the Veteran Affairs website. They state further study is recommended
> in 2002 since it is so difficult to associate rare forms to a population study
> because there is just not enough cases to be conclusive.
> 
> The fact one brother has passed and one is currently undergoing chemo and my
> sister is heavily medicated to counteract the seizures from the scars of her
> brain tumor 20 years ago just do not fit the guidelines of compensation is ridiculous,
> I feel for all the vets and families that do not meet the strictest of guidelines.
> 
> Strange thing is though two of my older brothers( one on chemo ) and my
> mother have been diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes and do qualify.
> 
> OK we will pay for the Type 2 Diabetes as a potoential link but in no way
> will we acknowledge 3 different forms of rare cancers.
> Let me see now.... 2 + 2 = ?? Tough question I guess.
> 
> Today I called the HELP LINE to ask the best way to prove they lived in
> Gagetown at the time stating I have my Fathers( Deceased) military records
> and on one "Personal History Form" it is dated Sept. 1967. States my Father
> moved there in February 67 and names his Wife and her address as the same
> clearly stating Oromocto.
> 
> This is proof my parents were there in one of the years during spraying.
> Response: Well that record only officially identifies your Father as being
> there we would need more proof for your mother and brothers.
> 
> We cannot go inot your fathers files without a signed waiver from him.
> You can send what you have but we will require more like church records
> or something proving they were there.
> 
> WE WERE ARMY....YOU HAVE THE RECORDS.
> 
> Is this an exercise in making it as difficult as possible for the few who do qualify
> to qualify?
> 
> As many people do, all of my family live in a different province let alone a different town.
> The hospital we all attended was military as well. They are eliminating scores of
> people who will not be able to prove they were there in 67.
> I for an example was 2 1/2 years old fresh from Germany, what record would I
> have other than the army records.
> 
> We did not attend church. What about spouses or caregivers of deceased
> they do not have the rights to have access to there loved ones Service
> Records. How ridiculous can this get when you cannot verify the family
> of these veterans were there in there SERVICE RECORDS because they are not
> alive to sign on it?
> 
> You are asking the sick and dying from around the country to call schools
> and churches to look for 40 year old records when you have the answers
> in your FILES.
> 
> SHAMEFUL! SHAMEFUL! SHAMEFUL!


----------



## Maraduer

What is the life expectance of the dioxins and other chemicals used in Gagetown.
I was there in 1981 for RV. I was 19 then.  I slept on the ground and dug in the dirt.
I have twice been diagnosed with Hodgekins Lymphomia. As well both of my children 
were born with learning disabilities and one was born with a defect of the eye which 
required surgury.  I have also been diagnosed with anxiaty, depression, and some other
mental problems.  Before 81, I was a go lucky happy guy.

I am part of a class action that states anyone from 64 (I believe) to  85. If you were in Gagetown and have 
certian symptoms you can apply.

Has anyone else heard of those in the early 80 being considered


----------



## Sandy Skipton

As more and more information is found concerning this topic, it seems evident that the victims of the Gagetown Spraying were exposed to accumulative toxins. The spraying of chemicals in question happened during  almost every year from 1956-1984.  Accumulative means that before one toxin was handled by nature and its half-life, the same or another toxin was sprayed... 

Just now, the Government is only recognizing two events during the summers of 1966 and 1967 and many of the items in the offered 'compensation package' are keeping the numbers low for those that qualify.


----------



## GUNS

NL Supreme Court allows Class Action  by Gen. Ring (retired), to proceed against Canadian Government/DND for Chemical spraying in Gagetown.  I believe NL is the second province to allow a Class Action to proceed.

All those who believe they may have a medical condition that could have been as a result of training in Gagetown would be wise to join the Class Action.


----------



## Sandy Skipton

On March 5, 2008 the Agent Orange Association of Canada published its official website, which can be found at http://www.agentorangecanada.com .  We hope this site will help to educate and inform anyone interested in following this tragic story.... or perhaps trying to find information concerning the compensation package...  

This story is far from over and AOAC will continue to work towards improvement in how veterans are recognized and helped. The compensation package is less than adequate and leaves many service members and civilians out but we encourage all those that do qualify to submit the application.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 100 days.
Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic. 

Instead of making a new thread I decided to post here instead, if not the right place MODS please move.


Noticed this in todays local paper.


Majority of applicants for Ottawa’s Agent Orange compensation get cheques  
The Canadian Press — Fredericton, N.B.

More than 60 per cent of applicants to the federal Agent Orange compensation program in connection with spraying at a New Brunswick military base have received their cheques.
Figures released Friday by Veterans Affairs show that 3,000 applications had been received as of Jan. 12, for the ex gratia payment of $20,000.
Of those who have applied, 1,959 applications have been approved with 1,938 cheques having been issued to date.
The federal government announced a $95.6-million compensation package in the fall of 2007 for veterans and civilians affected by the U.S. military’s spraying of Agent Orange at Canadian Forces Base Gagetown during the 1960s.
Janice Summerby, a media-relations adviser with Veterans Affairs Canada, says 830 applicants did not meet the eligibility criteria.
The deadline for compensation applications is April 1.


----------



## GUNS

From the comments I read about the Agent Orange payment, the $20,000 was paid to soldiers and civilians who were in Gagetown during the testing of AO by the Americans in 66/67. It is claimed that DND had been spraying the same chemicals plus other chemicals that are far worst than AO from 1956 to 1984.

Makes one wonder if soldiers from that time frame (1956 to 1984) who have medical conditions that are the direct result of the chemical spraying at Gagetown.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Dismiss Agent Orange lawsuit, N.L. court urged
Last Updated: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 | 9:00 PM NT CBC News

﻿The federal government and two chemical companies went to court Wednesday in a bid to stop a class-action lawsuit launched by people who claim they developed cancer after being exposed to Agent Orange at Canadian Forces Base Gagetown in New Brunswick.

The suit, brought by more than 1,700 people from across the country as well as 35 from the province, was certified in the Supreme Court of Newfoundland and Labrador trial division.

On Wednesday, lawyers representing federal Attorney General Rob Nicholson, Minister of National Defence Peter Mackay , the Dow Chemical Company and the Pharmacia Corp. were in a St. John's courtroom seeking to have the certification order overturned.






Retired Canadian soldier, John Mallard, says he was diagnosed with cancer because of Agent Orange at CFB Gagetown. (CBC) 

The plaintiffs say they have been diagnosed with cancers including leukemia, Hodgkin's disease and non-Hodgkin's lymphoma because of their exposure to Agent Orange at Gagetown between 1956 and 2004.

"All the time I was at Gagetown was out in the field training — you're sleeping on the ground, you are eating your hard rations … you're eating with your hands, so basically your ingesting it," said retired soldier John Mallard, who is convinced his cancer stemmed from exposure to the herbicide at Gagetown."You're sleeping in it, you're burning bush to keep warm, so you're inhaling it."

Retired Brig.-Gen. Ed Ring, a Newfoundlander and another of the plaintiffs, was outraged by the bid to stop the suit.





Retired Soldier, Ed Ring, of St. John's, Newfoundland, is a member of a class action suit claiming exposure to Agent Orange left him with cancer. (CBC)

"I am appalled that we have large organizations like the federal government and these chemical companies trying to deny us the opportunity to even have our case heard in court," he said.

The federal government and the companies maintain Agent Orange — a herbicide developed in the United States for use in the Vietnam war — was only one of 23 chemicals sprayed on the base, so there is no way to determine who was exposed to which chemical and for how long.

They also say there's not enough common ground among the ailments suffered by the plaintiffs to justify a class-action suit.

In September of 2007 the federal government announced a $96-million compensation package for people exposed to the herbicide at Gagetown —a $20,000 payout to anyone who qualified for it.

Members of the class-action suit refused to accept the settlement.

Hearings are scheduled to continue in St. John's Thursday.


----------



## wildman0101

im part of that class action lawsuit... damn them to hell...
will be phoning the merchant law group in the morming...
damn then to hell again......just had to get that off my chest
so to speak... 
now back to your regular programming army.ca rocks
                   
                        regards,,,
                            scoty b


----------



## PMedMoe

No offense but did they take a family history of the complainants??  Chances are, they were predisposed to cancer but Agent Orange may have been the "accelerator".  

Scoty (aka wildman), hope you're doing okay.


----------



## wildman0101

PMedMoe
            thanks for the response... im doing ok... have my
good days and bad... i carry on.. the reason i contacted
merchant law group (i found out about this class action 
through this website) was in regards to some health issues 
after i was 3-b released...
skin disorders-chloracne
male reproductive-low sperm count(had probs making babies 
during my sevice-petawawa and later after i got married and 
was wondering what the hey)
neurological- headaches/weakness/dizzines/irritability/depress-
ion/insomnia/fatigue/tremors/numbness in toes and fingers/
withdrawal/
lung problems-asthma
chronic pain/suffering 
all this was listed on the class action info merchant law sent me.. i bloody near freaked as i was med released 3-b 1986..
anyway if anyone else that served around my time (1975-
1986) and have similar conditions  please contact me via
army.ca msn messenger  ...
dont know whats happening with this class action ,,,last i
heard the offer for compensation was refused by the class 
action (merchant law group) ...can anyone update me on this
anyway ill shut up now,,(thanks again pmedmoe) for taking 
the time and caring...  
                     best regards all,,,
                        scoty b


----------



## Sandy Skipton

Hi wildman....  The most up-to-date information about the Class Action, that I know of, can be found at http://www.agentorangecanada.com/classaction.php 

It seems at this time, the court in Saskatewan in on hold because the Judge is spending time reading documents, which we know are many many many. We are not sure when we will hear from the Judge but the main thrust of the Class Action is being made in Saskatewan courts at this time.... 

Hi PMedMoe.... No, they were not interested in medical history but instead it seemed that they just wanted to compensate someone, anyone so they would be able to say they did a good thing. Every thing else has been swept under the filing cabinets... 
Actually, when my husband died in May 2005, our family doctor ordered an "Agent Orange Autopsy" I was told by the pathologist that he had no idea how to accomplish the task and that there were no labs, that he knew of, that could do the tissue testing that was needed. I later found out that even our Environmental Illnesses Clinics, (we have 3, one in Halifax, one in Ottawa and one on the west coast) had no idea where the lab tests could be done.... 
Like many others, I am STILL looking for the TRUTH behind all this "Gagetown Toxic Chemical" story.

Thank you for your interest   *MIKsam*


----------



## wildman0101

pmedmoe thanks 
miksam- thankyou for the update...
sorry for the slow response, my isp 
was having a mixup with with my local
server... go figure,,,
hope they sort it out right (agent orange)
with members who served and all that 
were exposed,,,  all we can do is wait till 
it all comes outta the wash... thanks again...
                      best regards,,,
                               scoty b


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/12/07/12072341-sun.html
'Widows on a Warpath' demand apology, compensation 

By Kathleen Harris - SUN MEDIA 

OTTAWA — Seven “Widows on a Warpath” have travelled to the capital demanding an apology and more compensation for exposure to Agent Orange on CFB Gagetown. 

Bette Hudson, who lost her husband in 2004 to lung and bone cancer, said the federal government’s existing compensation program is too narrow and excludes too many victims. She is calling for wider parameters for time periods and the diseases associated with exposure to the deadly defoliant. 
“Our family has suffered a devastating blow with his death. I don’t know if we will ever recover because it is an emotional battering which one takes when one loses her life partner,” she said. 

Hudson said the $96.5 million allotted so far will help 4,500 victims, when 400,000 could have been exposed. The widows are also demanding a full public inquiry and a minute’s silence in the House of Commons to honour Agent Orange victims. 
“For us, there is always hope. We have optimism that we can move somebody to start doing something in honour of our husbands and families,” she said. “This can not go on, because this tragedy will continue for a great many generations.” 

The widows will appear at a Senate committee Tuesday. 

kathleen.harris@sunmedia.ca


----------



## Sandy Skipton

Marlene Jennings holds News Conference on AGENT ORANGE MOTION

OTTAWA - Liberal Deputy House Leader, the Honourable Marlene Jennings, will hold a news conference to discuss her recent motion calling on the Conservative government to hold a full public inquiry for the victims of Agent Orange.

Date: December 8, 2009
Time: 11:00 a.m.
Location: National Press Theatre, 150 Wellington Street, Ottawa

WHO:
-- The Honourable Marlene Jennings, P.C., M.P.,
    Deputy House Leader for the Official Opposition and
    Liberal Critic for Democratic Reform and Government Ethics
--The Honourable Ujjal Dosanjh, P.C., M.P.
    Defence Liberal Critic for National
--Affairs Mr. Rob Oliphant, M.P.
    Liberal Critic for Veterans
--Mrs. Carol Brown Parker
    Agent Orange Association of Canada. Inc.

The National Press Theatre is only accessible to journalists accredited through the Parliamentary Press Gallery


----------



## Michael OLeary

Interesting to see the Liberals standing up so clearly for this issue now. This thread was started while they were in power and the following is taken from the first page of this thread:



> By KATHLEEN HARRIS, Parliamentary Bureau
> http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/OttawaSun/News/2005/05/17/1042903-sun.html
> 
> The Liberal government yesterday vowed to compensate sick and dying soldiers affected by Agent Orange, but has no plan to track down those potentially poisoned by the toxic chemical.
> 
> Under fire in the House of Commons yesterday, Veterans Affairs Minister Albina Guarnieri denied the government tried to hush-up the danger. She insisted veterans will receive disability pensions where "sufficient evidence" finds a link between their medical condition and exposure to the deadly dioxin.
> 
> "We will always go that extra mile to assist any veteran in need," she said.
> Veterans Affairs has granted two pensions for afflictions related to Agent Orange, but 19 claims have been rejected since 2000. The herbicide, used by Americans during the Vietnam War to clear trees and ground cover, was tested at CFB Gagetown in 1966 and is known to cause cancer, diabetes and birth defects.



Too bad they didn't do more when they had the chance.

Albina Guarnieri


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Judge halts Agent Orange class-action lawsuit 
Court
ROSIE GILLINGHAM 
The Telegram


A Court of Appeal has decertified a class-action lawsuit relating to Agent Orange at a former military base in New Brunswick.

More than 3,000 people from across Canada - including close to 70 from this province - were involved in a class-action lawsuit against the government and the chemical manufacturers.

They were seeking compensation for being exposed to Agent Orange.

However, a decision by Newfoundland and Labrador Court of Appeal Justice Margaret Cameron to overturn a previous ruling by a lower court means the claimants now have to file individual lawsuits.

That process would be more costly and time-consuming.

Retired Brig. Gen. Ed Ring of St. John's - who put his name forward on behalf of all the claimants in the lawsuit - was unavailable for comment Wednesday.

However, last fall, when the merits of the appeal were being argued, he told The Telegram that if those involved have to file individual lawsuits, "98 per cent of them would walk away from this, either because they can't afford it, don't have the time or are too ill."

In the fall of 2007, the federal government announced a $95.6-million compensation package for veterans and civilians who were at the base in 1966 and 1967 and were affected by the U.S. military's spraying of Agent Orange at the Gagetown base.

A one-time, lump sum payment of $20,000 each was paid to those who qualified for compensation. Roughly 4,500 people were eligible for the payment. But many believe it fell short of what the veterans and their families deserve.

In December 2007, Justice Leo Barry ruled the class-action lawsuit against the federal government would proceed in this province, as opposed to New Brunswick.

Since then, the case had been dragging through the system as the government and chemical companies file various motions and appeals.

Last fall, lawyers from both sides argued the merits of an appeal, filed by the government and the chemical manufacturers Pharmacia Corp. and Dow Chemical Group, seeking to halt the class action.

At that time, several people involved in the class action also came to court.

Their fight was all about people who were affected by the U.S. military's spraying of Agent Orange at the Canadian Forces Base Gagetown in New Brunswick.

Agent Orange - a herbicide used by the military to control vegetation and clear dense brush - was used in Gagetown between 1956 and 2004.

The powerful and toxic defoliant was proven to have caused serious long-term health effects on those who were exposed to it.

Used by the U.S. military in the Vietnam War, Agent Orange was recognized to have caused such illnesses as Hodgkin's disease, lymphoma, respiratory cancers, prostate cancer and Type 2 diabetes.

David Eaton, who represents Dow Chemical Group, had told the appeal panel that because of the large numbers involved, the diversity of the group and the specific circumstances of each, it would be difficult to deal with it as one case.

Eaton declined comment Wednesday.

Ring - who served 34 years in the military and was diagnosed with cancer in 1996 - had said they have a right to a fair hearing, despite the complexities of the case.

"This is a significant effort by large companies and the federal government to deny us that right.

"There's a common issue involved here. It's all about what happened in Gagetown."

But the appeal panel agreed with Eaton and didn't believe there was enough to establish the criteria for certification.

For example, Cameron noted that the class may have been too broad, and that it is difficult to narrow its scope.

One issue she had was with the wording of the class: it's defined as "all individuals who were at CFB Gagetown between 1956 and the present and who claim they were exposed to dangerous levels of dioxin or hexachlorobenzene while on the base."

"While various numbers have been used to estimate the potential size of the class," Cameron pointed out, "it is generally agreed that it is in excess of 400,000 people and, thus defined, includes everyone who was at CFB Gagetown, for any period of time, between 1956 and the present, whether exposed to herbicides or not.

"It lacks the rational connection to the causes of action and common issues identified by the plaintiffs. Given the pattern of spraying, its time frame and size of the base, not every one of the 400,000 plus potential claimants in fact have a claim."

She said as it's worded, it "limits class members to those who 'claim they were exposed' rather than those who 'were exposed.'"

Cameron also questioned real common issue in the class.

"The trial division judge did not address the question of whether the (primary) common issue is a common issue for the whole of the class or a series of common issues to be determined for various subclasses," Cameron said.

"Unless the relationship between various chemicals and all types of lymphomas is the same, the determination will have to be made for each type of lymphoma."

The lack of criteria for certification in this case, Cameron said, "undermines the trial division judge's decision that a class action is the preferable procedure."

rgillingham@thetelegram.com


----------



## wildman0101

she did what???????????
unfu****G believeable
does she realize what she just did...???????????
jumping jesus-h Cr***........
end rant(mods-please modify (thanks)
now im gonna have to open the bar(fridge door)
drink copious amounts of milk(fortified with same 
amout of vodka) get properly snokered and send
this woman an e-mail...... having said that if you 
dont hear from me in a while ill probably be
spending some time in the crow-bar hotel..........
now if youll excuse me im feeling real thirsty......
i bloody rest my case.......hic
best regards (send smokes and booze thanks)
cheers mates and april fools ya bums
         scoty b


----------



## wildman0101

sorry forgot to insert last 
am taking ms bit**(the judge to task)
have contacted my laywer (no duff)
any help would be appreciated...
i say again this is a no-duff 
thanks again mates appreciated
            scoty b


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from a VAC media advisory:


> The Honourable Jean-Pierre Blackburn, Minister of Veterans Affairs and Minister of State (Agriculture), along with the Honourable Keith Ashfield, Minister of National Revenue, Minister of the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency and Minister for the Atlantic Gateway, will announce *important changes to the Agent Orange ex gratia payment*.
> 
> In September 2007, the Government of Canada announced a one-time, tax-free ex gratia payment of $20,000 related to the testing of unregistered U.S. military herbicides, including Agent Orange, at Canadian Forces Base Gagetown in New Brunswick during the summers of 1966 and 1967.
> Location: 	The Royal Canadian Legion, Branch #4
> 199 Queen St, Fredericton, New Brunswick
> 
> Date: 	Wednesday, December 22, 2010
> 
> Time: 	1:00 p.m. ....


Hmm, maybe an extension?  The only reason I guess this is because of the big print at the top of this page
http://www.veterans.gc.ca/clients/sub.cfm?source=services/pensions/orange
as of this posting (screen capture attached):


> .... Veterans Affairs Canada does not have the authority to make payments after October 1, 2010.
> 
> The deadline for applications was April 1, 2009 ....


----------



## Nemo888

Are they just waiting till 90% are dead so then they can save money? What is taking so long? They already admitted it was their fault. 20 k will cover a funeral and a few credit card bills. This is SOP for VAC. Give a little, promise a lot and then bring out the "Living Charter" we're working on it press release. Banana republic, penny pinching bull$%!t is what I call it.

This crap was used in a few fields up in Pet as well wasn't it? Maybe just a rumour. What about them?


----------



## the 48th regulator

*Agent Orange compensation eligibility expanded*


Last Updated: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 | 12:56 PM ET Comments0Recommend0CBC News 
The federal government is expanding its compensation program for Agent Orange exposure at Canadian Forces Base Gagetown to include those who died of a related illness before Feb. 6, 2006.

These barrels in New Brunswick are thought to have once contained the chemical defoliant Agent Orange. (CBC)Veterans Affairs Minister Jean-Pierre Blackburn announced the new criteria for the program, which was originally designed for people who were exposed to the herbicide at the New Brunswick base in the 1960s.

The government estimates that more than 1,000 additional people whose loved one died of an Agent Orange-related illness before the previous 2006 cutoff date will now be able to apply for the one-time, $20,000 ex gratia payment.

The eligibility expansion is estimated to cost $24 million, Blackburn said.

As first reported by CBC News's Louise Elliott, Blackburn also announced the deadline for applying for the payment has been extended to June 30, 2011, from Oct. 1, 2010.

Earlier this month, the Veterans Affairs Department revealed it had not spent $26 million of the $96 million originally set aside for victims of the spray program that took place at Gagetown in 1966 and 1967. It stopped processing applications in November.

That led groups such as Widows on the Warpath to complain to CBC News last week that the government's criteria to qualify for compensation were too strict.

_Copyright © CBC 2010_

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/politics/story/2010/12/22/agent-orange-compensation.html#ixzz18rhoqT6X


----------



## The Bread Guy

From VAC:


> The Honourable Jean-Pierre Blackburn, Minister of Veterans Affairs and Minister of State (Agriculture), announced today, in company of the Honourable Keith Ashfield, Minister of National Revenue, Minister of the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency and Minister for the Atlantic Gateway, that the Government of Canada is extending the time that individuals have to submit an application for the Agent Orange ex gratia payment. Certain eligibility criteria have also been modified.
> 
> "Today, I am announcing that our government has extended the deadline to June 2011 and widened eligibility criteria. We estimate that these changes will allow approximately 1,140 people to receive the ex gratia payment, for a total of approximately $24 million dollars. The Department will be communicating shortly with individuals whose applications were previously declined in order to see if they meet the new criteria. I am proud to be part of a government that proves once again that it takes action and shows compassion," said Minister Blackburn.
> 
> As a result of today's announcement, the deadline for submitting an application is extended to June 30, 2011. People will also have until June 30, 2011 to obtain a relevant medical diagnosis. They will no longer have to prove that they were expecting their medical diagnosis before February 6, 2006. Furthermore, the requirement for applicants to have been alive on February 6, 2006 has been removed. This will allow more primary caregivers, including widows and widowers, to apply on behalf of a loved one who died before the ex gratia payment came into place.
> 
> "Today's announcement of additional government assistance to Veterans and families living in communities closest to CFB Gagetown in New Brunswick is a welcome continuation to the previous commitment made by this government," said Minister Ashfield. "It demonstrates our continued support to Veterans and their families in this province. I am so pleased to see the Government make good on the commitment made to all New Brunswickers to address longstanding concerns related to the testing of Agent Orange at CFB Gagetown."
> 
> In September 2007, the Government of Canada announced a one-time, tax-free ex gratia payment of $20,000 related to the testing of unregistered U.S. military herbicides, including Agent Orange, at Canadian Forces Base Gagetown in New Brunswick during the summers of 1966 and 1967.
> 
> While the best research available has confirmed there were no harmful long-term effects from the testing of Agent Orange, the Government of Canada acted with compassion by offering an ex gratia payment. This recognizes the uncertainty many individuals have lived with over the years.
> 
> "On behalf of the Agent Orange Association of Canada Inc., I would like to take this opportunity to thank Minister Blackburn and his government for extending and changing the Agent Orange ex gratia program. I believe that we are moving in the right direction in supporting our Veterans and civilians who were exposed to Agent Orange and other toxic herbicides at CFB Base Gagetown but we also must continue to work together," said Carol Brown Parker, Co-President Agent Orange Association of Canada Inc.
> 
> To qualify for the ex gratia payment, individuals must be diagnosed with a medical condition listed in the U.S. National Academy of Sciences' Institute of Medicine Update 2004. They must have worked at, trained at, been posted to, or lived within five kilometres of CFB Gagetown when Agent Orange was tested in 1966 and 1967.
> 
> To date, a total of 3,137 applicants have received the tax-free, ex gratia payment, for a total payout of $62.7 million. An additional sum of 7.7 million dollars was used to communicate information about this program to the general population, to hire personnel to deal with the applications and to open an office in Oromocto.
> 
> For more information, visit the Veterans Affairs Canada Web site or call 1-866-522-2122.


----------



## wildman0101

Well that sound's like good new's. As far as 
the Government of Canada and Veteran's
Affair's are concerned.... I won't hold my 
breath,,, I will however check with Merchant
Law Group Monday morn and scope out the 
situation.. Best regard's all who are involved
and hope we can  come to a conclusion in 
this... Got my finger's crossed...
Scoty B


----------



## 57Chevy

maybe this topic could be moved to re: VAC and other Soldiers' Benefits  
            _______________________________________________________________

Facts on the Extension of the Agent Orange Ex Gratia Payment:
The Government of Canada is extending the Agent Orange ex gratia payment. With this extension, individuals will have until June 30, 2011, to obtain a relevant medical diagnosis and to submit an application. An applicant will no longer have to prove that a medical diagnosis was in progress before February 6, 2006. In addition, the requirement for an eligible individual to be alive on February 6, 2006, has been removed, allowing more primary caregivers to apply on behalf of a loved one who died before the ex gratia payment came into place.

Eligibility
To qualify for the ex gratia payment, individuals must meet the following conditions: 

(a) Between June 1, 1966, and June 30, 2011, the individual must be diagnosed with any one or more of the following medical conditions listed in the Institute of Medicine's Update 2004: 

•Chronic lymphocytic leukemia (CLL)
•Soft tissue sarcoma
•Non-Hodgkin's lymphoma
•Hodgkin's disease
•Chloracne
•Respiratory cancer (of the lung/bronchus, larynx or trachea)
•Prostate cancer
•Multiple myeloma
•Acute and subacute transcient peripheral neuropathy
•Porphyria cutanea tarda
•Type 2 diabetes (mellitus)
•Spina bifida (as described in (b)).
(b) At any time from June to September of either 1966 or 1967 the individual or, in the case of an individual diagnosed with spina bifida, a biological parent of the individual must have:

•worked or lived at CFB Gagetown;
•been posted to or trained at CFB Gagetown; or
•resided in a community of which any portion laid within five kilometres of the perimeter of CFB Gagetown.
You may apply on your own behalf, and/or as the primary caregiver of an individual who passed away and would have qualified for the ex gratia payment. If you are applying both on your own behalf and as a primary caregiver, you must submit two separate application forms.

How to Apply


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## 57Chevy

This is saddening on the part of VAC 

Article shared with provisions of The Copyright Act

Dying woman denied Agent Orange payout
Kathy Tomlinson, CBC News 19 Dec
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/12/16/bc-agentorange.html

Veterans Affairs rejects application because cancer diagnosed after deadline

A Winnipeg woman dying of lung cancer has been denied compensation promised by the federal government for illnesses linked to Agent Orange spraying at CFB Gagetown, N.B, because she missed a deadline for getting diagnosed.

"I was tired. I was worn out. I was just exhausted. But, I just thought I was stressed through work," said Debbie Bertrand, 57. "I can't change not going to a doctor."

Bertrand grew up in a military family. She is one of several thousand people who lived or worked at Canadian Forces Base Gagetown when Agent Orange was sprayed there.

"We as kids weren't given a choice of where we were allowed to live when our fathers were in the military," said Bertrand. "We just happened to be there at that time and that place."

The Canadian military allowed the U.S. to conduct Vietnam War-related experiments, in the summers of 1966 and 1967. The U.S. spraying in those years is only a small portion of the Agent Orange used in the Gagetown area over a 28-year period.

Ottawa has since promised $20,000 payments to anyone who suffered ill health effects linked to the American tests. Lung cancer sufferers qualify. However, the deadline to get diagnosed was June 30 of this year.

Sick before deadline

Bertrand said she was feeling quite ill before the deadline, but didn't go to a doctor. In June, she was working overtime as a civil servant in Winnipeg, processing Employment Insurance cheques during the postal strike.

"It's pretty obvious that she had been sick with lung cancer for quite some time, she just hadn't been diagnosed" said her daughter, Amy Bertrand, adding her mother always put others first and doesn't stand up for herself.

"She will walk away because that's what she was told — and that's not right."

Bertrand has worked for the federal government for 25 years and was just starting to plan her retirement when she got sick.

"It was very shocking actually," she said, adding she drove herself to hospital after she started coughing up blood.

"Maybe I should have gone to the doctor in May – and never mind the rest of the Canadians that they didn't get their EI cheques. I should have looked after myself instead of them."

By the time Bertrand went to hospital in August, her cancer was inoperable and quite advanced. Veterans Affairs then told her, since she was diagnosed after the cutoff, the rules dictate she is not entitled to a payment.

"In order to accept an Agent Orange ex gratia application after the June 30, 2011, deadline, there must be circumstances beyond the control of the applicant," reads the latest rejection letter from Veterans Affairs.

"Furthermore, the medical document you provided shows you were diagnosed with lung cancer on Aug. 11, 2011. That is after the eligible time period."

Cut-off date criticized

"Why do they have a cut-off date on such an important issue that's been around for years?" asked Bertrand. "How many other people don't know they are sick right now?"

The Agent Orange Association of Canada, which advocates for people exposed, said it believes many people who have suffered didn't even apply.

"I have talked to eight or nine people that found out … after the June 30th deadline. So of course they could not apply. The government right from the beginning did not do due diligence in informing people," said president Carol Brown Parker.

She said some requests submitted before the deadline were denied because of technicalities.

"The whole thing is an insult," said Grant Pye, whose application was rejected. "They are playing with people's lives here."

He said his family spent summers at a vacation property near the base and he suffers from two diseases approved for compensation. His application was denied, though, because technically the summer property was not his "residence."

"I proved I was there [during the spraying]," he said, "I wouldn't have bothered if I didn't have the right to it."

Pye's MP, Conservative John Williamson, wrote a scathing letter to Veterans Affairs about the denial calling it "arbitrary and discriminating."

"An injustice has occurred," wrote Williamson. "Your office has chosen to ignore the clear intent of the program … I ask that you right this wrong in the interest of fairness and justice."

Figures from Veterans Affairs show 9,584 people have applied since 2007, when the federal government first decided to compensate people exposed to Agent Orange in and around Gagetown in the mid-'60s. 

About 4,800 people — half the applicants — have been paid. Veterans Affairs indicated most of the $114-million fund has now been depleted. About $8.6 million went to administration.

The remaining $9 million will be used to pay claims, with the last cheques being sent out by Dec. 30.

Woman has filed 2 appeals

Bertrand’s daughter, who like her mother works for the federal government, said the money would allow her to take a leave of absence to care for her mom at home.

"They were testing a chemical they used for war on my family," said Amy.

She's helped her mother file two appeals and said the slow response shows disrespect for her mom, whose time is running out.

"They can't even have the courtesy to respond to letter we sent by a lawyer," she said. "This isn't just about the money. It's about the principle. It's not right that the government can treat their citizens like this."

Veterans Affairs refused to comment on Bertrand's case, citing privacy. The minister responsible, Steven Blaney, declined a request for an interview.

A statement from his spokesperson read, "We went beyond our initial commitment by providing additional funds to the program to ensure all those who are eligible for the ex-gratia payment receive it. This is concrete proof that our government is delivering transparent and measurable results for our veterans and their families."

Christmas plea

Several members of Bertrand's family have also become ill, with diseases linked to Agent Orange exposure, and some have since died.

She hopes by going public she can still get Ottawa's attention before Christmas.

"When you are not ready [to die] you are not prepared," says Bertrand.

Her daughter is hopeful her mother's appeal will be considered and compensation granted, so she can use some of the funds to take time off work.

"I do work two jobs, so it's hard to be home all the time to look after her," she said, choking back tears. "Until it affects you directly, you don't really know how hard it is."


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## GAP

Since it can be proven she was there when the Agent orange was sprayed, and it's verifiable that other people within her family have difficulties, it should be appealable


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## dapaterson

In this case, VAC has no legal authority to pay.  Their hands are tied: the qualifying criteria were not met.

The bureaucracy can only do as it is told to do and permitted to do.  If the rules need changing (and this case suggests they do) it is the role of the elected officials to change those rules.


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## GAP

You are correct....permission would have to come from the minister...


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## 57Chevy

Shared with provisions of The Copyright Act

MP rallies to support dying woman told she filed Agent Orange claim too late
Shawn Berry, Postmedia News, 19 Dec
http://www.canada.com/rallies+support+dying+woman+told+filed+Agent+Orange+claim+late/5883671/story.html#ixzz1hArSF1F0

New Brunswick Telegraph-Journal

A woman who's dying of lung cancer that she says was caused by Agent Orange spraying at Canadian Forces Base Gagetown in New Brunswick in the 1960s says the federal government has denied her compensation because she was diagnosed months after a deadline.

``It's not so much the money. The money would have been nice to put my affairs in order, but it's more that the government has a responsibility to each individual person and not to put a date on it,'' she said Monday from her Winnipeg home.

Debbie Bertrand, 57, was raised in a military family and is among the thousands who lived in the area when the U.S. military tested Agent Orange, a specific blend of herbicides, at the base in 1966 and 1967.

The base also used a range of powerful defoliants to clear brush from the 1950s until the 1980s, when the most toxic substances were banned.

In 2007, the federal government made the $20,000 payments available to people whose health may have been harmed by the spraying of Agent Orange at the base.

The $95.6-million package was for veterans and civilians affected by the U.S. military's spraying of the lethal herbicide at CFB Gagetown during the 1960s.

An NDP member of Parliament says situations such as Bertrand's are highlighting a sad chapter in Canadian history.

``She's not an isolated case, and there will be many more down the road,'' said Peter Stoffer, the MP for Sackville-Eastern Shore in Nova Scotia.

``(Veterans Affairs) has a `benefit-of-the-doubt program' and they should apply the benefit of the doubt in these cases.''

Bertrand, who said she felt ill earlier this year but wasn't tested until August, several weeks after a deadline for compensation, says she believes the government should have contacted every resident and told them to get medical tests.

``We should have all been notified. How many people who lived there really know nothing about it? They lived there, they've been sick or their parents have been sick and they don't know,'' said Bertrand, who lived in Oromocto, N.B., for about 15 years.

``It shouldn't be up to us hunt them down. They should have been hunting us down, making sure we got doctors' (appointments) and get tested for these things.

``It's kind of sad that they gave a cut-off date. I'm only 57. How many of the other kids who grew up there are sick? How many more of them actually know about this?''

She said she was diagnosed with lung cancer in August of this year, after the June 30 deadline for a $20,000 payment.

Bertrand said she was feeling ill earlier this year, before the deadline. At the time, she chalked it up to the stress of work, she said.

An employee at Service Canada, she said she was especially busy during the Canada Post strike.

She said she had enough in August when she wasn't feeling strong enough to take the garbage out.

``I drove (my daughter) to work and went to the hospital, and that's when I found out.''

``I feel very sorry for Ms. Bertrand, there are many people like herself who have been denied (compensation) for ridiculous reasons,'' said Carol Brown Parker of the Agent Orange Association of Canada.

Parker said it's her group's position that the government did not do due diligence from the beginning to properly notify people who lived and qualified in CFB Gagetown and surrounding areas.


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## schart28

Steven Blaney’s Office Claims Harper Government Delivered on Agent Orange Promises But Veterans Ombudsman Calls VAC Actions “Scandalous”

http://blogs.ottawacitizen.com/2011/12/22/steven-blaneys-office-claims-harper-government-delivered-on-agent-orange-promises-but-veterans-ombudsman-calls-vac-actions-scandalous/
December 22, 2011. 11:12 pm • Section: Defence Watch

NATALIE STECHYSON, POSTMEDIA NEWS has the latest about the Agent Orange issue:

OTTAWA — Canada’s veterans ombudsman stood up Thursday for the caregivers of those affected by Agent Orange who are being excluded from government payments.



Veterans Affairs Canada is denying claims from caregivers based on “very narrow” interpretations, Guy Parent said in a statement released Thursday. While no one questions the need for eligibility criteria, these criteria must respect the spirit of the legislation, Parent said.



“The definitions used by Veterans Affairs Canada would not withstand public or legal scrutiny. This is nothing short of scandalous,” Parent said.



“One wonders how many other individuals have been denied the ex gratia payment unfairly.”



The Agent Orange ex gratia payment program is meant to compensate those who were exposed to the defoliant chemical and are suffering from medical conditions related to the testing. The spray program took place at Canadian Forces Base Gagetown in New Brunswick in 1966 and 1967. The program allows primary caregivers to apply on behalf of an individual who would have been eligible but died.



Jean-Christophe de le Rue, a spokesman for Veterans Affairs Minister Steven Blaney, said the government promised to deal with the Agent Orange issue and has delivered on that promise.



In 2007, the government announced a $20,000 ex gratia payment. In 2010, the government enhanced the eligibility criteria and extended the deadline for a medical diagnosis and the deadline for applications to June 30, 2011, de la Rue pointed out.



“We went beyond our initial commitment by providing additional funds to the program to ensure all those who are eligible for the ex-gratia payment receive it,” he said in an email to Postmedia News.



“Until December 31, 2011, Minister Blaney will continue to monitor cases to ensure fair and accurate decisions are being made. This is concrete proof that our government is delivering transparent and measurable results for our veterans and their families.”



The office of the ombudsman has received a number of requests for help by people whose applications have been denied, Parent said. In one instance, the widow of a former soldier was denied payment because her husband of 50 years was living in a long-term care facility at the time of his death.



One of the criteria is that the primary caregiver must have been living in the same home as the deceased for at least one year prior to that person’s death and was primarily responsible for caring for the individual.



“The widow in question ensured that her husband received the care that he needed by placing him in a facility when she could no longer care for him at home, and she visited that facility every day to assist staff where possible,” Parent said. “Unfortunately, the department narrowly has interpreted the order in council to mean that care must be provided directly by the caregiver.”



Parent also raised the case for individuals who have been denied because of late applications.





Read more: http://www.canada.com/health/Veterans+ombudsman+slams+scandalous+Agent+Orange+compensation+rules/5901347/story.html#ixzz1hJdunrpn


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## PanaEng

from CBC:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/story/2011/12/30/nb-agent-orange-decision-152.html


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## dogger1936

"Veterans Affairs Minister Steven Blaney has told official to review some cases with more compassion, a spokesperson said."

Bravo Mr Blaney. Hopefully this is the beginning of a new era in VAC.  I have great hopes for you sir.


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## kstart

Really glad to hear some better news   :yellow:


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## The Bread Guy

A bit more from The Canadian Press:


> The federal government is reversing a decision to reject compensation for dozens of Canadians affected by the spraying of Agent Orange.
> 
> The Canadian Press has learned approximately 30 people will now receive payments under the program, which is meant to compensate soldiers and their families exposed to the defoliant in the 1960s who later became ill.
> 
> A number of families had gone public in recent weeks with their bureaucratic battles over the funds and the Veterans Ombudsman publicly rebuked the government for its handling of the file, saying the rules were being applied too restrictively.
> 
> Government sources say the number of complaints they've received led to a review of what one admitted was a "less than perfect" program.
> 
> Those people who are eligible for a payment but filed an application past the June 30, 2011 deadline will now receive funds.
> 
> The government is also loosening its application of rules on compensation for primary caregivers.
> 
> In one case, a widow was denied payment because her husband died in a nursing home and the couple of 50 years was technically not living together.
> 
> She and others like her will now receive funds, government officials said ....


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## AJSangster

I am pretty sure this would be an appropriate place to post this, however i apologize in advance if it is not. I am currently waiting to be accepted into my local armored reserve unit (not saying I will be, however I have high hopes that I will since it is a big dream of mine). I have some valid concerns of mine that I would appreciate if some good folks here could help me with. After hearing so much about CFB Gagetown's unfortunate spraying and testing of Agent Orange and Agent Purple defoliant from 1956 until 1984 when it was outlawed, I cannot help to wonder what the current environmental situation is on the base. I understand training goes on there on a regular basis and has been for a long, long time but it still makes me wonder what effects some of the soldiers stationed there or training there will have from being in an area sprayed with one of (if not the) most toxic substance known to man later in life. I wont let it stop me from serving my country, but I would very much like to know what people here think about the situation and perhaps receive some good responses and information from the users of these forums. No, I am not joking I do have very valid concerns over this matter and I would like to be fully aware of what I am getting myself into.

Responses are much appreciated.



-Thanks, AJ


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## Franko

The training area is safe and there are no areas off limits to troops due to the agent being sprayed 40+ years ago. 

You can roll around in your trench all you want to your heart's content.


As for it being spraying in the 80's....source please?


Regards


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## Sandy Skipton

"*kstart*"is so right in saying he is really glad to hear some better news.
Hopefully VAC will understand that there are many many more persons out there that have not been seen to. Many more are ill or will become ill and one by one, each will have to fight for what should be theirs to expect. It is a shame that anyone who served their country should have to fight for their rights after they have given their best years to fighting for EVERY persons rights while protecting Canada.

*"AJSangster" * asked a valid question about todays health in the Training area. I would respond with, take care, keep your skin covered if possible, arrange a clean surface for you food prep and eating. All the stuff that mom taught you, like, wash your hands before you eat. Do your job (training) but use common sense in protecting yourself as much as possible. It has NOT been proven to my satisfaction that dioxin is not present in some areas. I add this to Nerf Herder's comment since it is well known that herbicides and pesticides are still used by the military and if anyone checks on the ending of these words "cides" they will know that it is a latin word meaning "to kill" and what kills greenery or insects is also poisonous to humans.

I will describe the chemicals that posed the problem that we call Agent Orange. Agent Orange is actually a description of a barrel that held a chemical mixture. The description "Agent Orange" was a nickname used by the American Military because the barrel holding the chemical mixture had an orange stripe painted around it for quick recognition. Inside the barrel was a 50/50 mixture of 2,4D and 2,4,5T. Just in the last couple of years 2,4D has been taken off the shelves in hardware stores because it is suspected of being a health risk. In 1973, 2,4,5T was found to be highly contaminated with Dioxin and the production procedure was modified and later 2,4,5T was banned in most areas of the world.  

*"Nerf herder"*, The chemicals 2,4D and 2,4,5T and many other toxic chemicals (ie: Tordon 101) were sprayed in Gagetown from 1956 - 1984 and the documentation can be requested from Access to Information by asking for document A-2004-00207   
http://www.agentorangecanada.com/dnddocs.php

The 'Agent Orange Association of Canada Inc' is still pushing VAC to be more accessible to the victims of the Chemicals at Gagetown. I will add that I have not been well received by VAC and I know my husband will be one of the forgotten ones, but I will continue to support others. I began this thread on Feb 21, 2005 and was working on a DVA claim for my husband well before the media became involved, each claim was rather quickly rejected.


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## The Bread Guy

Bumped with a new development from south of the border ....


> The state government of Maine is going to Washington D.C. to try to get help for members of the state's National Guard who trained at CFB Gagetown.
> 
> Over the years thousands of Maine guardsmen trained in the woods at the New Brunswick base where Agent Orange and other chemical defoliants were used.
> 
> Maine Gov. Paul Lepage has directed senior veterans department officials to ask Washington to acknowledge the hazards Maine National Guard members faced in New Brunswick. If the U.S. federal government agrees, the veterans will receive benefits they are currently not eligible to receive.
> 
> "It would allow them to get benefits that they would deserve - if it has been determined that whatever illness they have was a direct result of exposure," said Peter Rogers, the communications director for Maine's Department of Defence, Veterans and Emergency Management ....


More background at Maine's Department of Defence, Veterans and Emergency Management page here.


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## The Bread Guy

> The veterans affairs critic for the NDP is calling for an inquiry into defoliant spraying at Canadian Forces Base Gagetown in New Brunswick and is encouraging anyone who was exposed to the chemicals to file a claim with the federal government.
> 
> Peter Stoffer didn't limit his appeal to members of the military who have been affected, saying Tuesday that civilians or their families should also step forward if they think they have a claim.
> 
> "If you believe you have a legitimate claim to make towards (the Department of Veterans Affairs) we're encouraging you now to get the forms and send them in," he told a news conference in Moncton with Basil McAllister, 83, who has been fighting for compensation for 10 years.
> 
> Stoffer used McAllister's case to encourage others to come forward.
> 
> "He wasn't asking for a Rolex watch or a trip to Florida," Stoffer said. "He was asking for basic dignity and basic compensation to help him and his family live through the ailments they are suffering from."
> 
> McAllister, who is from nearby Burton, has a list of health problems, which he attributes to exposure to the defoliant Agent Orange.
> 
> "I have prostate cancer and it has gone into my bones. I have Type 2 diabetes. I have skin cancer and I have a pacemaker to keep my heart going," he said.
> 
> Veterans Affairs Minister Julian Fantino said in a statement that the federal Conservatives introduced a $20,000 ex-gratia payment that was paid to over 5,000 veterans and other Canadians for exposure to Agent Orange ....


The Canadian Press, 16 Dec 2014

A bit more from the NDP's news release:


> NDP Veterans Affairs critic Peter Stoffer congratulated veteran Basil McAllister today for winning a federal court case that forces Veterans Affairs Canada to grant him disability compensation in relation to his exposure to defoliant spraying at CFB Gagetown.
> 
> “Basil fought for almost 10 years to obtain compensation and assistance from Veterans Affairs Canada,” said Stoffer. “He was repeatedly denied assistance but did not give up. I am proud of Basil’s win on this issue.”
> 
> Stoffer noted that the NDP has long advocated for better compensation for all military personnel and civilians affected by defoliant spraying at CFB Gagetown. Stoffer also noted that the federal Conservatives promised to call for a full public inquiry into Agent Orange and defoliant spraying at CFB Gagetown prior to being elected in 2006 but did not deliver on their promise.
> 
> “Based on Basil’s recent win, I encourage all Canadians affected by defoliant spraying at CFB Gagetown to file a claim with Veterans Affairs Canada,” said Stoffer. “There is no excuse for this Conservative government to deny them their rightful compensation.”


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## medicineman

Having problems figuring out how he feels that his ailments are Agent Orange related - prostate cancer, Type 2 Diabetes, skin cancers and heart issues are something a lot of 80 something year olds have issues with and weren't bathing in AO.  They come with having 80 year old body parts.  There are fairly specific disease processes that are identified as being caused by exposure to AO - these aren't.  

Don't get me wrong, I do feel for the guy, however I feel he needs to come up with something better if he feels he deserves compensation based on that alone.

 :2c:

MM


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## blackberet17

Those fighting for compensation due to exposure to defoliants used in Gagetown are painting themselves into a corner. Furlong report showed many, many more defoliants were used than JUST Agent Orange, and for much longer than the few days over two years Agent Orange was sprayed.

If you weren't in the specific, sprayed areas during the total of less than two weeks Agent Orange was sprayed (14-16 June 66, 21-24 June 67), or you didn't handle the stuff, you probably weren't exposed to Agent Orange.

MP Stoffer is giving false hope to those fighting for compensation for exposure to Agent Orange. He probably hasn't even read it, before he started "encouraging anyone who was exposed to the chemicals to file a claim with the federal government".


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