# Victoria Cross 150 years old



## armchair (12 Feb 2006)

On January 29 the Victoria Cross was 150 years old.In that time 93 Canadian have received it .In WWI 69 WWII 16 The first one was
awarded to Lt.A.R.Dunn in the charge of The Light Brigade in the Crimean War.


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## Bill Smy (12 Feb 2006)

In that time 93 Canadian have received it   

I have seen this statement, with similar numbers, but for the life of me, i have not been able to establish criteriae to do the count.  :threat:

Dunn is routinely counted, but there were other men of Canadian birth serving in British units that are not.

There were Brits who were serving in Canadian units who are counted, but really, they were not Canadians.

Does anyone know the rules used to this statistic?


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## Michael OLeary (12 Feb 2006)

The usual count of Canadian VCs appears to allow for the inclusion of anyone who had lived in canad at any time, regardless of the length of time they did so or which country's forces they were in at the time of the event.  There does not appear to be any published "standard' conditions for making this count.

I've seen "94" quoted quite often, though sources differ.

I would suggest one of the better general sources on line regarding the VC is now at Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_cross), which was migrated from the Victoria Cross Reference site (http://www.victoriacross.net/default.asp).

Wikipedia's list of VC reciients by nationality gives a figure of 90 for Canadians:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Victoria_Cross_recipients_by_nationality

... yet their page listing them gives 96 names.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_Victoria_Cross_recipients

I have one database list that runs to 99 names, admittedly I never tracked the individual conditions for being considered "Canadian."  The three discrepancies to my list of 99 follow, Wikipedia reference and notes in parentheses:

02-Sep-1898	Lieutenant	de Montmorency, Raymond Harvey Lodge Joseph	21st Lancers (Empress of India's)
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Harvey_Lodge_Joseph_%28The_Hon.%29_De_Montmorency
"Also considered Canadian.")

09-Jun-1858	Pte	O'Hea, Timothy	1st Battalion The Rifle Brigade
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_O%27Hea
...stationed in Canada when the following deed took place for which he was awarded the VC.")

14-Oct-1918	Private	Ricketts, Pte Thomas	1st Battalion, The Royal Newfoundland Regiment
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Ricketts
 "Sometimes considered to be Canadian although it should be borne in mind that during World War I Newfoundland was a self governing dominion and didn't became a Province of Canada until 1949.")


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## Michael OLeary (12 Feb 2006)

For the record, here's the list of 99:

Day	Month	Year	Rank	Name	Unit

25	October	1854	Lieutenant	Dunn, Lt Alexander Roberts	11th (Prince Albert's Own) Regiment of (Light) Dragoons (Hussars)
14	September	1857	Surgeon	Reade, Surgeon Herbert Taylor	61st (South Gloucestershire) Regiment of Foot
16	November	1857		Hall, William	Royal Navy (HMS Shannon), Naval Brigade
9	June	1858	Pte	O'Hea, Timothy	1st Battalion the Rifle Brigade
7	May	1867	Dr. (Asst-Surg)	Douglas, Campbell Mallis	24th (Warwickshire) Regiment of Foot, (later The South Wales Borderers)
2	September	1898	Lieutenant	de Montmorency,Raymond Harvey Lodge Joseph	21st Lancers (Empress of India's)
20	April	1900	Lieutenant	Nickerson, William Henry Snyder	Royal Army Medical Corps (att to Mounted Infantry)
5	July	1900	Sergeant	Richardson, Sergt. Arthur Herbert Lindsay	Strathcona's Horse
7	November	1900	Sergeant	Holland, Edward James Gibson	The Royal Canadian Dragoons
7	November	1900	Lieutenant	Cockburn, Hampden Zane Churchill	The Royal Canadian Dragoons
7	November	1900	Lieutenant	Turner, Lieut. Richard Ernest	The Royal Canadian Dragoons
1	February	1915	Corporal	O'Leary, Lance Corporal Michael	1st Battalion, The Irish Guards
23	April	1915	Lance Corporal	Fisher, L/Cpl Frederick	13th Infantry Battalion (Royal Highlanders of Canada)
24	April	1915	Lieutenant	Bellew, Lieut. Edward Donald	7th Battalion (1st British Columbia Regiment)
24	April	1915	Colour-Sergeant	Hall, Colour-Sergeant Frederick William	8th Battalion (90th Winnipeg Rifles)
25	April	1915	Captain	Scrimger, Capt Francis Alexander Caron	Canadian Army Medical Corps
15	June	1915	Lieutenant	Campbell, Lt Frederick William	1st Battalion (Western Ontario Regiment)
17	August	1915	Private	Brown, Pte Harry	10th Infantry Battalion (10th Canadians)
21	January	1916	Captain	Sinton, John Alexander	Indian Medical Service, Indian Army
5	July	1916	Lieutenant (Temp)	Wilkinson, Temporary Lieutenant Thomas Orde Lauder	7th Bn. The Loyal North Lancashire Regiment
9	September	1916	Corporal (Acting)	Clarke, A/Cpl Leo	2nd Infantry Battalion (Eastern Ontario Regiment)
16	September	1916	Private	Kerr, Pte. John Chipman	49th Infantry Battalion
8	October	1916	Private	Richardson, Pte James Cleland	16th Infantry Battalion (The Canadian Scottish)
27	March	1917	Lieutenant	Harvey, Lieut. Frederick Maurice Watson	Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians)
9	April	1917	Private	Milne, Pte William Johnstone	16th Infantry Battalion (The Canadian Scottish)
9	April	1917	Lance Sergeant	Sifton, L/Sgt Ellis Wellwood	18th Battalion
9	April	1917	Captain	MacDowell, Capt Thain Wendell	38th Infantry Battalion
3	May	1917	Lieutenant	Combe, Lt Robert Grierson	27th Battalion
2	June	1917	Captain	Bishop, William Avery	Royal Flying Corps
3	June	1917	Private	Pattison, Pte. John George	50th Battalion (Calgary Regiment
15	August	1917	Private	O'Rourke, Pte. Michael James	7th Battalion (1st British Columbia Regiment)
18	August	1917	Sergeant	Hobson, Sergt. Frederick	20th Infantry Battalion
18	August	1917	Major (Acting)	Learmonth, A/Major Okill Massey	2nd Infantry Battalion (Eastern Ontario Regiment)
21	August	1917	CSM	Hanna, CSM Robert	29th Battalion (British Columbia Regiment)
24	August	1917	Corporal (Acting)	Konowal, A/Cpl Filip	47th Battalion (47th British Columbia Battalion)
10	October	1917	Lieutenant-Colonel	Bent, Lt.-Col. Philip Eric	The Leicestershire Regiment
26	October	1917	Private	Holmes, Pte Thomas William	4th Canadian Mounted Rifles Battalion (Rifles 2nd Central Ontario Regiment)
26	October	1917	Captain	O'Kelly, Capt Christopher Patrick John	52nd Battalion (New Ontario Battalion)
26	October	1917	Lieutenant	Shankland, Lt Robert	43rd Battalion (Cameron Highlanders)
30	October	1917	Major	Pearkes, Maj. George Randolph	5th Canadian Mounted Rifles Battalion
30	October	1917	Lieutenant	MacKenzie, Lt Hugh	7th Canadian Machine Gun Company
30	October	1917	Private	Kinross, Pte Cecil John	49th Infantry Battalion
30	October	1917	Sergeant	Mullin, Sgt George Harry	Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
6	November	1917	Corporal	Barron, Cpl Colin Fraser	3rd Infantry Battalion (Toronto Regiment)
6	November	1917	Private	Robertson, Pte. James Peter	27th Infantry Battalion
20	November	1917	Lieutenant	Strachan, Lt. Harcus	Fort Garry Horse
21	March	1918	Second Lieutenant	de Wind, 2Lt Edmond	31st Infantry Battalion
27	March	1918	2nd Lieut	MacLeod, 2nd Lieut. Alan Arnett	Royal Flying Corps
30	March	1918	Lieutenant	Flowerdew, Lt Gordon Muriel	Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians)
28	April	1918	Captain	McKean, Capt George Burdon	14th Infantry Battalion (Royal Montreal Regiment)
1	May	1918	Private	Cruikshank, Robert Edward	2/14th (County of London) Bn., The London Regiment (London Scottish)
10	May	1918	Lieutenant	Bourke, Rowland Richard Louis	Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve
8	June	1918	Corporal	Kaeble, Cpl Joseph	22nd Infantry Battalion, (Canadien Francais)
8	August	1918	Lieutenant	Tait, Lt. James Edward	78th Infantry Battalion (Winnipeg Grenadiers)
8	August	1918	Corporal	Miner, Cpl Harry Garnet Bedford	58th Infantry Battalion
8	August	1918	Private	Croake, Pte John Bernard	13th Infantry Battalion (Royal Highlanders of Canada)
8	August	1918	Corporal	Good, Cpl Herman James	13th Infantry Battalion (Royal Highlanders of Canada)
9	August	1918	Corporal (Acting)	Brereton, A/Cpl Alexander Picton	8th Battalion (90th Winnipeg Rifles)
9	August	1918	Lieutenant	Brillant, Lt Jean	22nd Infantry Battalion (Canadien Francais)
9	August	1918	Corporal	Coppins, Cpl Frederick George	8th Battalion (90th Winnipeg Rifles)
9	August	1918	Sergeant	Zengel, Sgt Raphael Louis	5th Infantry Battalion (Western Cavalry)
12	August	1918	Private	Dineson, Pte Thomas	42nd Infantry Battalion (Royal Highlanders of Canada)
13	August	1918	Sergeant	Spall, Sgt Robert	Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
26	August	1918	Lieutenant	Rutherford, Lt Charles Smith	5th Canadian Mounted Rifles Battalion
28	August	1918	Lieutenant-Colonel	Clark-Kennedy, LCol William Hew	24th Battalion (Victoria Rifles)
1	September	1918	Private	Nunney, Pte Claude Joseph Patrick	38th Infantry Battalion
2	September	1918	Captain	Hutcheson, Capt Bellenden Seymour	Canadian Army Medical Corps
2	September	1918	Private	Rayfield, Private Walter Leigh	7th Battalion (1st British Columbia Regiment)
2	September	1918	Lance Corporal	Metcalf, L/Cpl William Henry	16th Infantry Battalion (The Canadian Scottish)
2	September	1918	Private	Young, Pte John Francis	87th Battalion (Canadian Grenadier Guards)
2	September	1918	Sergeant (Acting	Knight, A/Sgt Arthur George	10th Infantry Battalion (10th Canadians)
2	September	1918	Lieutenant-Colonel	Peck, LCol Cyrus Wesley	16th Infantry Battalion (The Canadian Scottish)
27	September	1918	Lieutenant	Kerr, Lt George Fraser	3rd Infantry Battalion (Toronto Regiment)
27	September	1918	Lieutenant	Lyall, Lt. Graham Thomson	102nd Infantry Battalion (North British Columbians)
27	September	1918	Lieutenant	Gregg, Lt Milton Fowler	The Royal Canadian Regiment
29	September	1918	Captain (Temp)	MacGregor, Temporory Captain John	2nd Canadian Mounted Rifles (1st Central Ontario Regiment)
30	September	1918	Lieutenant	Honey, Lt Samuel Lewis	78th Infantry Battalion (Winnipeg Grenadiers)
1	October	1918	Sergeant	Merrifield, Sgt William	4th Infantry Battalion
8	October	1918	Captain	Mitchell, Capt. Coulson Norman	4th Battalion, Canadian Engineers (1st Tunnelling Company)
11	October	1918	Lieutenant	Algie, Lt Wallace Boyd	20th Infantry Battalion
14	October	1918	Private	Ricketts, Pte Thomas	1st Battalion, The Royal Newfoundland Regiment
1	November	1918	Sergeant	Cairns, Sergt. Hugh	46th Infantry Battalion
19	December	1941	CSM	Osborn, CSM John Robert	1st Battalion, The Winnipeg Grenadiers
19	August	1942	Captain (Hon)	Foote, Hon. Capt John Weir	Canadian Chaplain Services
19	August	1942	Lieutenant-Colonel	Merritt, Lt. Col. Charles Cecil	The South Saskatchewan Regiment
8	November	1942	Captain	Peters, Capt. Frederick Thornton	Royal Navy
14	December	1943	Major (Acting)	Triquet, A/Maj Paul	Le Royal 22e Regiment
16	February	1944	Major	Hoey, Maj. Charles Ferguson	1st Battalion, The Lincolnshire Regiment
24	May	1944	Major	Mahoney, Maj John Keefer	The Westminster Regiment (Motor)
12	June	1944	Pilot Officer	Mynarski, Pilot Officer Andrew Charles	Royal Canadian Air Force
24	June	1944	Flight Lieut.	Hornell, Flight Lieut. David Ernest	Royal Canadian Air Force
4	August	1944	Sqn Ldr	Bazalgette, Sqn Ldr Ian Willoughby	Royal Air Force
18	August	1944	Major	Currie, Maj. David Vivian	29th Armoured Reconnaissance Regiment (The South Alberta Regiment)
22	October	1944	Private	Smith, Pte Ernest Alvia	The Seaforth Highlanders of Canada
26	February	1945	Sergeant	Cosens, Sgt Aubrey	The Queen's Own Rifles of Canada
1	March	1945	Major	Tilston, Maj Frederick Albert	The Essex Scottish Regiment
24	March	1945	Corporal	Topham, Cpl Frederick George	1st Canadian Parachute Battalion
9	August	1945		Gray, Robert Hampton	Royal Canadian Naval Volunteer Reserve
27	October	1918	Major	Barker, Major William George	Royal Air Force


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## Bill Smy (12 Feb 2006)

Good list Michael:--

It seems that every time I try to make a rule, there are exceptions:

For example:--

If a Canadian serving in a British unit is considered a "Canadian" recipient, why is an American serving in a Canadian unit not considered an "American recipient,or an Ukrainian a "Ukranian" recipient?

If a Newfoundland recipient is not counted because Newfoundland was not part of Canada at the time, why count Nova Scotians before 1867?

I agree that the VC Reference is one of the best authorities on the subject.

Having said all that, these types of "knit pickings" do nothing to dimish the valour.


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## armyvern (12 Feb 2006)

Although our own Canadian Department of History and Heritage Web-site lists only 94 recipients of the VC.

http://www.forces.ca/hr/dhh/honours_awards/engraph/recip_vc_e.asp?cat=3

Recipients - Victoria Cross 
Full citations to these awards are recorded in 1000 Brave Canadians, published by The Unitrade Press.

Prior to the South African War (4):

DUNN, Alexander Robert
HALL, William
READE, Herbert Taylor
DOUGLAS, Campbell Mellis

The South African (Boer) War 1899-1902 (4):

COCKBURN, Hampden Z.C.
HOLLAND, Edward J.G.
RICHARDSON, Arthur H.L.
TURNER, Richard E.W.

First World War 1914-1918 (70):

ALGIE, Wallace Lloyd
BARKER, William George
BARRON, Colin Fraser
BELLEW, Edward Donald
BENT, Philip Eric
BISHOP, William Avery
BOURKE, Rowland R.L.
BRERETON, Alexander P.
BRILLANT, Jean
BROWN, Harry
CAIRNS, Hugh
CAMPBELL, Frederick W.
CLARKE, Leo
CLARK-KENNEDY, William. Hew
COMBE, Robert Grierson
COPPINS, Frederick G.
CROAK, John Bernard
De WIND, Edmund
DINESEN, Thomas
FISHER, Fred
FLOWERDEW, Gordon M.
GOOD, Herman James
GREGG, Milton Fowler
HALL, Frederick William
HANNA, Robert
HARVEY, Frederick M.W.
HOBSON, Frederick
HOLMES, Thomas William
HONEY, Samuel Lewis
HUTCHESON, Bellenden S.
KAEBLE, Joseph
KERR, George Fraser
KERR, John Chipman
KINROSS, Cecil John
KNIGHT, Arthur George
KONOWAL, Filip
LEARMONTH, Okill M.
LYALL, Graham Thomson
MacDOWELL, Thain W.
MacGREGOR, John
MacKENZIE, Hugh
McKEAN, George Burdon
McLEOD, Alan Arnett
MERRIFIELD, William
METCALF, William Henry
MILNE, William Johnstone
MINER, Harry G.B.
MITCHELL, Coulson N.
MULLIN, George Harry
NUNNEY, Claude J.P.
O'KELLY, Christopher P.J.
O'LEARY, Michael
O'ROURKE, Michael James
PATTISON, John George
PEARKES, George Randolph
PECK, Cyrus Wesley
RAYFIELD, Walter Leigh
RICHARDSON, James C.
RICKETTS, Thomas
ROBERTSON, James Peter
RUTHERFORD, Charles S.
SCRIMGER, Francis A.C.
SHANKLAND, Robert
SIFTON, Ellis Wellwood
SPALL, Robert
STRACHAN, Harcus
TAIT, James Edward
WILKINSON, Thomas O.L.
YOUNG, Francis
ZENGEL, Raphael Louis

Second World War 1939-1945 (16):

BAZALGETTE, Ian W
COSENS, Aubrey
CURRIE, David Vivian
FOOTE, John Weir
GRAY, Robert Hampton
HOEY, Charles Ferguson
HORNELL, David Ernest
MAHONY, John Keefer
MERRITT, Charles C.I.
MYNARSKI, Andrew C.
OSBORN, John Robert
PETERS, Frederick Thornton
SMITH, Ernest Alvia
TILSTON, Frederick Albert
TOPHAM, Frederick George
TRIQUET, Paul

Could it be that possible discrepency in "Country" is based on the Award Criteria originally being that the VC was awarded for conspicuous bravery, in the presence of an enemy, by a member born in a Commonwealth nation serving with her Military or a member of an allied armed force that is serving with or in conjunction with a Commonwealth Force? Possibly ergo the reason an American or Ukranian recipient would be listed as eg. 'Canadian' in some references vice their own nationality. They would be ineligible for the VC based on their country of birth not being a part of the Commonwealth; but rather earned their Commonwealth VC because they were serving with a Commonwealth or Allied Unit at the time of their brave act?


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## armchair (12 Feb 2006)

armchair said:
			
		

> On January 29 the Victoria Cross was 150 years old.In that time 93 Canadian have received it .In WWI 69 WWII 16 The first one was
> awarded to Lt.A.R.Dunn in the charge of The Light Brigade in the Crimean War.


I was looking for the link were I found that number but I did not bookmark it.Veterans Affairs Canada quotes 94 to Canadians(Canadian born
or serving in the Canadian Army or with close connection to Canada)


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## reccecrewman (28 Feb 2006)

On the Victoria Cross topic, I've heard that if an NCM receives the VC, then Officers salute the NCM first........... Myth or truth? If it is truth, is it just a courtesy?


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## Michael OLeary (28 Feb 2006)

Myth.  Don't you think that something with that sense of importance would be clearly documented?  It's that sense of importance which makes you want to think it might be true that would ensure that everyone would know it as an 'exception to the rule' if it were so. (Actually, I think we've discussed this one before.)

See this page at the Victoria Cross Reference for some related comments:
http://www.victoriacross.net/forum_topic.asp?topics=365&tid=114


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## muskrat89 (28 Feb 2006)

I wondered if that hadn't "morphed" from the US traditions. I found this interesting tidbit:

http://www.answers.com/topic/salute



> It is a widely-believed myth that in the United States military all personnel are required to initiate a salute to a Medal of Honor recipient, regardless of rank. Nothing in United States military regulations relates specifically to the Medal of Honor except for its order of precedence on the uniform. Custom, however, does dictate that a general should salute a private if the private has the Medal of Honor. In the United Kingdom, a similar fiction attaches to holders of the Victoria Cross.


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## Michael OLeary (28 Feb 2006)

I have no doubt that over the years more than a few VC holders, of varying ranks when serving, were invited to "take the salute" which may have added to building the myth.


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## Armymedic (28 Feb 2006)

On another note:

Has anyone seen the Canadian Mint's 2006 Proof Set silver dollar commemorating this anniversary?

The Gold raised VC on the silver dollar is absolutely beautiful.

http://www.mint.ca/royalcanadianmintpublic/index.aspx?requestedPath=/en-CA/Home/default.htm


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## reccecrewman (1 Mar 2006)

Thanks for clarifying that for me - BTW Armymedic, it is a beautiful coin.


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