# recruiting system inept - Report by Christie Blatchford



## GAP (27 Jun 2015)

Christie Blatchford: This Canadian Forces recruiting document is a glimpse into beating black heart of a modern bureaucracy

Christie Blatchford | June 26, 2015 
http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/christie-blatchford-this-canadian-forces-recruiting-document-is-a-glimpse-into-beating-black-heart-of-a-modern-bureaucracy

It’s not often you get a glimpse into the beating black heart of a modern bureaucracy (or evil incarnate, as I like to think of this particular one), but that’s just what documents obtained by the National Post offer.

They are internal to the Canadian Forces as it prepared for the near-shutdown this month of three more recruiting centres across the country.

The news of the near-closures — in Oshawa, Sydney and Cornerbrook — was first reported, as things military so often are, earlier this week with his usual accuracy by the fine Ottawa Citizen reporter David ********.

And the news is interesting enough: Three years ago, the CF closed 12 recruiting centres, and a year after that, sure as cats kick litter, a report on recruiting revealed just how appalling a job the military does at getting new soldiers into uniform.

Done for the research arm of the Defence department by the Defence Science Advisory Board (a private-sector group), the report showed the recruiting system was so inept it took an average 166 days for a newbie to be processed.

And now, here we go again, with what were full-time recruiting detachments being turned into “remote processing offices,” which, at least for the next year, will be open only between two and four days a month.

Now, applying online and via social media — the rationalization for these latest changes is modernization and a move away from bricks and mortar — very likely will be the future for the military.

Online has changed the rules for everything for almost everybody, and there’s no reason to imagine the CF is immune.

The problem is that the CF was so bad at recruiting in the old-school way that it’s difficult to make the leap of faith that it will be any better at it on social media. It is not enough, as newspapers and countless other organizations have learned, simply to open a website, plop up some “content” and wait for the money or people to come rolling in.
more on link


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## Pat in Halifax (27 Jun 2015)

I don't know. The old school method worked fine for me-June 1982-signed on the dotted line on the 19th, sworn in on the 24th, on a plane to Greenwood and a bus to Cornwallis on the 26th-ALL without computers.....


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## runormal (27 Jun 2015)

What I'd kill for if my CT could be processed in a mere 166 days  >.


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## Tibbson (27 Jun 2015)

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> I don't know. The old school method worked fine for me-June 1982-signed on the dotted line on the 19th, sworn in on the 24th, on a plane to Greenwood and a bus to Cornwallis on the 26th-ALL without computers.....



Same for me.  6 weeks from the time I walked in the door to enquire about joining to the day I was on the train to Cornwallis.


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## Blackadder1916 (27 Jun 2015)

166 days?  Now, is that from "first contact" to enrolment (swearing in) or to date of offer?  Is this the average number of days only for successful applicants or does it include the ones who were eventually refused (after all appeals exhausted)?  Is this for all applicants nationally or only those processed through the three recruiting detachments mentioned in the article?

On first read of the quoted portion in the OP, one could get the impression that the recruiting process is a bag of shit (and maybe it is).  However further along in the piece is (IMO) a more telling passage that suggests a certain bias on the part of the author.



> The “media lines” say that despite reports the CF isn’t reaching its recruiting objectives, it is “on track” to do so — but the few stats in the documents themselves suggest none of the reserve units in the three targeted cities has yet achieved its quota for 2015 and some aren’t even close (as of Feb. 25, for instance, the Cape Breton Highlanders had six of the 34 new members it’s allowed).
> 
> Since it’s reservists who give the military the biggest bang for the buck, and build the bridges with civilian Canada (sometimes literally), the difficulty so many reserve units are having meeting their quotas is surely an issue worth somebody’s attention.
> 
> ...



Ms. Blatchford has became a (usually) welcome champion of Canada's soldiers, though in this case I think she has missed the mark somewhat in this piece.  Though she applauds he who cannot be named, perhaps she should have included more of his piece in her article.


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## Eye In The Sky (27 Jun 2015)

Schindler's Lift said:
			
		

> Same for me.  6 weeks from the time I walked in the door to enquire about joining to the day I was on the train to Cornwallis.



I also used this (now) old-fashion communications device back then my parents had in a few locations around the house, pictured below.  I found it worked great.  I also wrote my CFAT using...paper and a pencil.  I was a little longer going thru in '89 because I held out for a trade for a month then changed my choices.  1st contact in Jan 89, wrote CFAT the next week, conditional offer of enrolment/offer in May, sworn in 25 Jul 89, arrived main gates CFRS Cornwallis 29 Jul 89.  First jacking up, very shortly after.  >


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## Underway (27 Jun 2015)

The clock doesn't start on the 166 days until the application starts.  The average is different if you remove all the"problem children".  A clean file should be much faster to merit list.  But the time average is changed significantly by a few things.

-applicant does not bring in their documents fast enough...recruiter bugs them for weeks...happens all the time
-applicant has some medical issue that requires medical letters, takes forever to get their specialist appt with their civi doctor (allergies, vision, previous surgery info are most common), then the MO has to sign off...
-pre security clearance for all the new  Canadians applying.  It doesn't matter which country of origin, even the U.S.    This takes FOREVER before the presec ppl get this done, it takes just short of a month or two for a natural born Canadian.
-waiting on the merit list until they are given an offer,  basic training courses are not just run at any time, there's a schedule and if you miss one you get on the next, officer ones are only run a couple times a year, ROTP selection is once a year, etc....

The goal for a clean file was 2-3 months till merit list.  

The fastest I ever got someone in was one week from application received to offer.  That required excellent timing for a basic spot and a phone call to the Ottawa med section and the Presec section to push the file through.  I wonder if she is still in the infantry.  Extremely motivated and on the ball young lady.


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## jollyjacktar (27 Jun 2015)

God help us if we ever need to ramp up in a hurry one day down the road.  It's not just the "in" door, it's the training system too.


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## drbones (27 Jun 2015)

Underway said:
			
		

> The clock doesn't start on the 166 days until the application starts.  The average is different if you remove all the"problem children".  A clean file should be much faster to merit list.  But the time average is changed significantly by a few things.
> 
> -applicant does not bring in their documents fast enough...recruiter bugs them for weeks...happens all the time
> -applicant has some medical issue that requires medical letters, takes forever to get their specialist appt with their civi doctor (allergies, vision, previous surgery info are most common), then the MO has to sign off...
> ...



Underway wish I had you handling my file originally. Applied in March and was not merit listed till October. Had to resubmit the same documents on three seperate occasions. Luckily there was a helpful individual who ensured all the boxes were checked on the recruiting side ;D . Recruiting can only get better from here...I hope :


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## Underway (27 Jun 2015)

drbones said:
			
		

> Underway wish I had you handling my file originally. Applied in March and was not merit listed till October. Had to resubmit the same documents on three seperate occasions. Luckily there was a helpful individual who ensured all the boxes were checked on the recruiting side ;D . Recruiting can only get better from here...I hope :


And this is the issue with online recruiting.  It's not the processing that's the problem.  You can drill out a bunch of applicant assembly line style in a day working late and powering through.  CFAT, psych test, interview, medical bang bang bang all in one day.  It's the personal touch to bring those who are new along through the system that's gone by the wayside.  Believe it or not the CAF members on the coal face give a crap about their applicants.  But they dont get the file until online recruiting sends it to them....

It can be done quickly all the way through, one month was the avg back in the days when Hillier was CDS.  As jollyjacktar  suggested training was the bottleneck as Borden didn't have PAT platoon but had a PAT battalion.  But recruiting was a priority and we had a ton of money.  Now there is no money and recruiting is treated like a red headed stepchild.


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## Valhrafn (28 Jun 2015)

drbones said:
			
		

> Underway wish I had you handling my file originally. Applied in March and was not merit listed till October. Had to resubmit the same documents on three seperate occasions. Luckily there was a helpful individual who ensured all the boxes were checked on the recruiting side ;D . Recruiting can only get better from here...I hope :


I applied in February of 2014 and am still in "quality control", but was told I will soon be merit listed. I had a similar document submission issue. If things don't seem to be going anywhere, my file might be more competitive if I switch to nco and get some experience before jumping right into an officer position (DEO entry plan). Still calling once every month for an update.


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## McG (28 Jun 2015)

I seem to recall recruiting centres also made an effort to get out into the community with stands at various public events and job fairs.  All that work outside the office cannot be remotely conducted from centrally consolidated resources


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## Harris (28 Jun 2015)

MCG said:
			
		

> I seem to recall recruiting centres also made an effort to get out into the community with stands at various public events and job fairs.  All that work outside the office cannot be remotely conducted from centrally consolidated resources



I've never seen recruiters from Halifax recruiting center anywhere near my armouries (Annapolis Valley/South Shore).  The only recruiters I do see are the Brigade funded ones and my own Class B guy supplemented by the Class A folks I pay for out of my training budget.

The Halifax staff at the center certainly never leave Halifax as far as I know.


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## Underway (28 Jun 2015)

MCG said:
			
		

> I seem to recall recruiting centres also made an effort to get out into the community with stands at various public events and job fairs.  All that work outside the office cannot be remotely conducted from centrally consolidated resources


CFRD's should only be going to events where there is a good chance of getting people in the target demographics.  General community events are a horrible way to get recruits (the marketing and numbers show this to be true).  

If there is a recruiting table at a local event its a good bet it's from the PRES recruiting staff as they are also tasked with community outreach oftentimes, and/or don't have the marketing muscle to know that what they are doing is a waste of recruiting time.  Community outreach events also often just add recruiting info to their table since, well you're already there.

Recruiters are also mobile.  There might not be an office in the area but there sure as hell is probably a recruiter (think regional sales rep civi side) who's incharge of events and working with the local influencers.


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## Kirkhill (28 Jun 2015)

Underway said:
			
		

> CFRD's should only be going to events where there is a good chance of getting people in the target demographics.  General community events are a horrible way to get recruits (the marketing and numbers show this to be true).
> 
> If there is a recruiting table at a local event its a good bet it's from the PRES recruiting staff as they are also tasked with community outreach oftentimes, and/or don't have the marketing muscle to know that what they are doing is a waste of recruiting time.  Community outreach events also often just add recruiting info to their table since, well you're already there.
> 
> Recruiters are also mobile.  There might not be an office in the area but there sure as hell is probably a recruiter (think regional sales rep civi side) who's incharge of events and working with the local influencers.



I see.... The Recruiters have gone upscale.  They are now the Marketing Department (Overhead).

Where are your salesmen?


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## TCM621 (28 Jun 2015)

There is always the excuse of "problem applicants", but it took me less then two months from inquiring about joining to being sworn in. And this was 96. 
No matter which way you slice it takes too long  We miss out on a lot of talent because they want a job nowish not 6 months to a year from now. And yes those are people we want.


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## Underway (28 Jun 2015)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> I see.... The Recruiters have gone upscale.  They are now the Marketing Department (Overhead).
> 
> Where are your salesmen?



Every single CAF member is a sales person but recruiters are the equivalent of sales people.  We're selling a lifestyle not just a job here.  As for marketing you don't think we have a target audience, advertising, a message, corporate philosophy, demographic research etc... The cost is just 3 years + of your life.  Fight with the forces campaign was a MARKETING campaign, just as "there's no life like it" and whatever the hell it is now.   Brand management of the silver CAF symbol and the "Forces.ca" brand as well.  Treasury board REQUIRES all this as we are one of the few depts federally that's event allowed to advertise publicly.  

The overhead for the Forces.ca campaign was three whole people who made ALL of the stuff from the website to the pamphlets etc...  Market research is part of HQ and has been there forever.  We need to know where the people are and what working and what's not or more money and effort we wasted.

That being said plenty of flaws in the system as it stands.  Presec is the biggest one, training spots is another.  And the complete lack of money and a friendly face right now.  People are not numbers.


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## dapaterson (28 Jun 2015)

The recruiting system is also geared towards bringing in the unemployed.  They work bankers hours - so if you're already employed and looking for a career change, be ready to take time off work for your testing and interviews.


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## Underway (28 Jun 2015)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The recruiting system is also geared towards bringing in the unemployed.  They work bankers hours - so if you're already employed and looking for a career change, be ready to take time off work for your testing and interviews.



Recruiting in Hamilton was working recently 8-7 and weekends for processing.  Closed too walk ins but if you had an appt they were open for you.  I think they've scaled that back recently, but still work the odd weekend.  Forces.ca used to have live chat with recruiters till midnight and many young people take advantage of that (they may have stopped, I don't know).    

Hours have never been an issue even when they were bank hours.  To be honest you want a job, any job, do you go to the job interview at 8 pm or at 730 am _if you are employed and looking for a career change_?  No you don't.  You show up during the company's HR work hours to demonstrate that you actually want the job.  If you can't be bothered to take some time off or get some flex hours to come in for your testing/interview then I don't want you in the CAF.  You obviously have some dedication issues and/or don't want the job that bad.

As for what the recruiting system is geared towards: under 25 year olds, which granted have an unemployment rate of 15% or higher or are in school.  But that just the target audience (the largest demographic that apply) they'll take anyone.  Once recruited a mother and son at the same time.  We made sure they went to different basic platoons at different times.


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## DAA (29 Jun 2015)

Underway said:
			
		

> And this is the issue with online recruiting.  It's not the processing that's the problem.  You can drill out a bunch of applicant assembly line style in a day working late and powering through.  CFAT, psych test, interview, medical bang bang bang all in one day.  It's the personal touch to bring those who are new along through the system that's gone by the wayside.  Believe it or not the CAF members on the coal face give a crap about their applicants.  But they dont get the file until online recruiting sends it to them....



Online recruiting was never the problem.  The purpose of online recruiting, was to control/manage the flow of applications into Recruiting Detachments, so that their processing efforts could be more focused and efficient.  Regrettably, instead of processing the files that were sent their way, they spent more time taking paper applications and complaining than processing.  The initial turn around time from online application to file transfer to a detachment was on average 7-10 business days, conditional upon the applicant providing the documentation which was requested of them.  Today the "flash to bang" is 48-72 hours.  Processing was and still is a problem.  Don't believe me, ask a current applicant or try calling a local CFRC and see if you can get through to them?  

For the most part, Social Media is an attraction and marketing tool, used to drive people to the forces.ca website and submit an online application and in some instances, obtaining answers to your basic questions.  The Online Application process is nothing more than the initial processing of your application, data cleanup, information validation (ie; age, citizenship, education, correct entry plans, available occupations, etc) and assignment to the Recruiting Detachment closest to your location.

Recruiting hasn't really changed over time.  "Attract and Process" are the two basics.  So if you are receiving 40,000 applications for 3,800 jobs and 90% of those 40,000 applications are making their way to Recruiting Detachments, then I'd have to say the online process and social media are working just fine.


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## Blackadder1916 (29 Jun 2015)

DAA said:
			
		

> . . . So if you are receiving 40,000 applications for 3,800 jobs and 90% of those 40,000 applications are making their way to Recruiting Detachments, . . .



Are those "actual" ballpark numbers?  Is that Reg only or Reg/Res combined?  So, a little over 10% success rate for applicants.


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## DAA (30 Jun 2015)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Are those "actual" ballpark numbers?  Is that Reg only or Reg/Res combined?  So, a little over 10% success rate for applicants.



That is Reg/Res combined and those are actual ballpark numbers which have remained relatively consistent for the past 2-3 years.

Res F applicants are not suppose to apply directly online until instructed to do so by a local Reserve Unit or Brigade Recruiter.  Res F applications probably account for roughly 10-12% of all applications submitted.


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## Underway (30 Jun 2015)

It used to be 3 to 1 or 4 to 1 ratio on applications to merit list.  It depends on how you define and application.  There was always some interal push pull on what defines an applicant.  Usually it's was all of your docs submitted ready for CFAT.  If you never get around to bringing in your birth certificate you were never counted as an applicant, just a prospect.


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## DAA (30 Jun 2015)

Underway said:
			
		

> It used to be 3 to 1 or 4 to 1 ratio on applications to merit list.  It depends on how you define and application.  There was always some interal push pull on what defines an applicant.  Usually it's was all of your docs submitted ready for CFAT.  If you never get around to bringing in your birth certificate you were never counted as an applicant, just a prospect.



"Applicant" is rather clearly defined as "anyone who completes the CFAT".  It was spelled out in black and white in the old RHB and also in the current WI's.  So there is no grey area as to what constitutes a "prospect" and when a prospect becomes an "applicant".


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