# The Canadian Airborne Regiment, 1968-1995 (merged)



## rdschultz

Just in case anybody is interested, CBC Newsworld is running the documentary "Fall Out" on Rough Cuts this week.  Its about the disbandment of the CAR, and some of the issues surrounding the whole affair.   There isn‘t anything new or special about the program, especially if you‘re familiar with the whole thing, but it was interesting to watch.  

It was on last night, but its listed as being on again.  The guide on my TV says its on Sunday at 3am and 8pm CST.  So it should be on at 1am and 6pm EDT.

EDIT:  Actually, I checked again and the time its supposed to be on again has changed, according to my guide.  Its actually 2am CST on Sunday, and I don‘t see a listing for the later showing.  So basiclly, ignore everything I say about when its on and check for yourself, if anybody is interested in seeing it.


----------



## Freight_Train

It was interesting.  **** shame that the Government of the day, not naming names, disbanded the Regiment.
Greg


----------



## Slim

A Completely inappropiate action...and done all out of proportion to what actually took place.

Some things to remember may be;

1. The government of the day were whining about how much the regiment cost to maintain shortly before the Somalia incident, however the political protection of the regiment by its civilian patrons hamstrung any government action.

2. There was a hue and cry about how "warlike" the CAR was by the fluffy, right-wing tree-huggers in federal politics at the time, but again, the CAR was saved by their patrons and so the Governmnent of the day could do nothing...until the Somalia scapegoat came along.

Lets face it; If we disbanded a Regt. everytime someone steps on their peepee, our army would be non-existent in no time at all.

And as an aside; I‘ve seen worse hazing in most colleges and universities than anything the CAR ever did.

Slim


----------



## 48Highlander

Somehow I can‘t see a bunch of liberal tree-hugging university students suffering through the hazing which new recruits to the CAR had to endure, let alone anything worse.  For instance, I‘m sure you heard about the manner in which jump wings were "pinned on" to new members, and I for one doubt very many civvies could handle that.

And no, I don‘t have anything against the CAR.  It was a mistake to disband them, and just another example of the government shitting on the CF in order to present a more PC image.


----------



## sgt_mandal

I‘m curious about one thing, Which crisis was/is bigger? The prisoners in Iraq issue, or the prisoners that were in CAR custody?


----------



## GrahamD

That would really depend on who you are and where in the world you live.

If you mean what was a bigger crisis for the Canadian military, then the answer in my opinion is the Somalia incident, hands down.
The Americans treatment of their prisoners doesn‘t really have anything to do with Canada.

Or if you mean which is worse from a POW standpoint, well that would be harder to say.  The Americans are holding a lot more prisoners.  Yet the crisis for the CAR began when one prisoner ended up dying.
In my opinion at least, I would prefer to be led around naked on a leash, than to be dead.
So in that sense I would still give that crisis the edge.

The USA however has a more fragile global reputation, and from a public relations standpoint, when the Americans make a mistake like the one they are dealing with now, it seems to be blown way farther out of control by the global media (including their own).
In that sense, the Americans are dealing with a larger "crisis" than we did during the disbandment of the CAR era.  Again, just in my opinion.

There are many more ways you could try to measure which incident is worse, but it really comes down to personal opinion.
If for example you were a member of the CAR, you would feel very differently than if you were a soldier in the US Forces.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Don‘t forget that there are about 30 deaths of people being detained that the American military is investigating.
There was also a suspicious shooting in Somalia that never really made the light of day.


----------



## excoelis

Some friendly advice:

If you weren‘t there for the ‘hazings‘ or Somalia then try not to speculate on what may or may not have happened.

The initiation rights were nothing like some of the bullshit I‘ve heard.  I politely declined to stuff toilet paper up my *** and light it and nobody was stupid enough to force the issue.  As a matter of fact I remember watching a Sgt tear the ******* hide right off a Cpl as he was about to run a batch of ‘FNGs‘ to the beer store - right in front of them!

Shootings???  Never really made the light of day?  **** me!!!

Watch much X-files do we???


----------



## Jungle

> Originally posted by 48Highlander:
> [qb] Somehow I can‘t see a bunch of liberal tree-hugging university students suffering through the hazing which new recruits to the CAR had to endure, let alone anything worse.  For instance, I‘m sure you heard about the manner in which jump wings were "pinned on" to new members, and I for one doubt very many civvies could handle that. [/qb]


Have you seen the Jack*** shows ? There was a guy (a spectator) in Montreal or Quebec City who, after the show, put his foot in the street for a city bus to drive over it. In front of TV cameras. Now take the same guy, and FORCE him to do the same thing... he will flip and say you‘re crazy.
Finally, the "Blood Wings" were an American practice. When awarded US Army wings, only those who requested it were given Blood Wings (from my experience...)


----------



## 48Highlander

Really?  I heard from an member of the Regiment that blood wings were standard practice for the CAR.  Were you a member?  If my info‘s wrong, I‘ll have to talk to that guy again...


----------



## excoelis

We had another saying:

First year you keep your eyes and ears open and your mouth ******* SHUT.

Second year you can start to ask questions.

By the third year you can start to answer the questions.  How do you know the answers you ask???  See year 1 and 2 above.


----------



## excoelis

Were you a member?

BWAAAAAAHAAAHAAAAAA!!!!!!!

Incoming.........................


----------



## Jungle

> Originally posted by 48Highlander:
> [qb] Really?  I heard from an member of the Regiment that blood wings were standard practice for the CAR.  Were you a member?  If my info‘s wrong, I‘ll have to talk to that guy again... [/qb]


I chose that avatar because I served. I spent seven years in the CAR, over two tours, from Pte to Sgt. After disbandment, I went on to serve another 5 years in a Para Coy, where I will more than likely end up again on posting next year.
I have witnessed the "atrocities" of the hazings, and Ex Coelis is right: there was a lot more said about them than what really happened... and nobody was forced to do anything. I have seen quite a few just walk away from it, without any consequences.


----------



## 48Highlander

Ah.  Yes, maybe I should check profiles before asking those questions


----------



## Jungle

> Originally posted by 48Highlander:
> [qb] Ah.  Yes, maybe I should check profiles before asking those questions      [/qb]


I strongly suggest you do just that. Now if any of you have questions about the CAR, feel free to ask (after conducting a search of the forums first).  *But if you never served in the Regt, DO NOT try to answer* . As a matter of fact, same goes about any other subject.


----------



## Old Cent Hand

Disbanding the CAR , was a mistake . Some of the finest people I have ever worked with, were in the CAR. Now if there were pictures of dead Canadians , being dragged through the streets , by a jubilant Somali mob , the outcome would have been different.


----------



## Slim

> Originally posted by Old Cent‘ Hand:
> [qb] Disbanding the CAR , was a mistake . Some of the finest people I have ever worked with, were in the CAR. Now if there were pictures of dead Canadians , being dragged through the streets , by a jubilant Somali mob , the outcome would have been different. [/qb]


Although I have never served in the CAR, I have served with and am friends with, many who have.

Disbanding the CAR was a HUGE mistake and we, as a nation, are poorer for it.

Slim


----------



## sgt_mandal

What I was trying to get at, is if one death of a prisoner was enough to disband the whole CAR, then why not some very harsh or even equivalent consequences on the American side? Not just a jail sentence, but proper punishment so as they can guarantee it will never happen again.


----------



## 48Highlander

It shouldn‘t have been enough.  The government over-reacted.  The incident in Somalia was, by all accounts, the fault of a handfull of members of the regiment.  The incident in Iraq is in that respect much worse because at this point it seems to be an unofficial policy of systematic abuse of prisoners within the chain of command of that unit.  So, if the handling of the Somalia incident had been fair, then the incident in Iraq should be more than enough to justify disbanding THAT regiment.  However, the CAB shouldn‘t have been disbanded.  That decision had nothing to do with justice, it was merely the governments way of avoiding criticism.  I think it was the beggining of the politicaly correct movement which has totaly transformed the army over the last decade.  And I don‘t think the US unit deserves to be disbanded either, but they do need to make some SERIOUS changes.


----------



## Roger

> Originally posted by 48Highlander:
> [qb] Really?  I heard from an member of the Regiment that blood wings were standard practice for the CAR.  Were you a member?  If my info‘s wrong, I‘ll have to talk to that guy again... [/qb]


Blood wings! Where did you get that, I never saw the practice in Canada, but I only know from the 70‘s, it is an American tradition. And what does that have to do with the CAR.

You can alway`s go to a sight where ex CAR guy`s hang out. www.commando.org


----------



## Old Cent Hand

After Somalia , I lost alot of faith in our government , and NDHQ. I can‘t remember the number of " nauseous", Military Ethics and Ethos lectures , I have sat through. Maybe these " Clowns" , in Ottawa , should have a closer look at themselves , and start applying what they preach , to all us " bottom feeders".


----------



## 48Highlander

I told you where I got it, from an ex-member of the CAR.  Guess he figured it‘d make a good drinking story.

Thanks for the link, that‘s an awesome site.


----------



## Pte.Nomercy

For everyone in this forum I suggest that you do find out for yourself as to why the CAR was disbanded. "Fallout" is a good start, but that‘s just it, a incentive to find out the truth.

I suggest everyone gets the following books:

Scapegoat: How the Army betrayed Kyle Brown

Significant Incident

Dishonored Legacy: Volumes 1-5 (The 2000 page report that the 3 man Somalia Inquiry submitted on June 30 1995 as a final report )

Commission of Inquires analysis to the deployment of the CAR in Somalia 

(There are about 7 different inquiry volumes pertaining to this royal commission that analyzed the CAR)

Somalia Cover up: A commissioners Journal

After reading all those, I suggest that you look into  what was "Operation Restore Hope" and the difference between UNITAF and UNOSOM and the Canadian missions Operation Deliverance vs Operation Cordon. Not only that, do some research on Somalia and its â Å“international relations,â ? in the late 80's and what/ who was going on in the country.

Then you‘ll find out the truth as to why EVERYTHING happened the way it did and why the CAR was unjustifiably disbanded. The best way to describe it is "political expediency" to divert attention from a Conservative cover-up.

If anyone has questions, please Private Message me, I‘ll be happy to help.


----------



## Old Cent Hand

Off topic abit here . Today‘s CF , is changing rapidly. I think NDHQ , is in need of a name change . From NDHQ to CBE ( Consolidated Bonehead Enterprises).


----------



## Slim

After a recent visit to the home Regt. (LdSH) I have been told that the training standards for the regs had dropped to the point of lunacy.

The training NCO‘s ( in basic-or whatever they now call it) are no longer allowed to train the troops the way they should be and as a result are coming to the regt only half-trained (If that!)

My buddies tell me about recruits who lip off and refuse to do as they are told ect, ect. Things must have really fallen off for that to be occuring. I guess they are hurting for field time as well. 

The LdSH(RC) NCO‘s are NOT a happy bunch!

Slim


----------



## Old Cent Hand

I agree with you Slim, I spent 4 years , as an Instructor , at W.A.T.C., formally the P.P.C.L.I. Battle School. Once I realized that the " Students" were running the School, I ASKED for Range Control.I know a number of good instructors there, when I hear an Infantry Instructor , say " I‘ll pass everyone, since we can‘t fail them",or I ask an Instructor , how his course is going , and he says " We started with 35 , we are down to 26, and some of the students , have lost the will to live",I knew it was time for a change.


----------



## Old Cent Hand

One of these days , our country will be in a real war , lots of casualties , I pray to God , I won‘t be there. Why , because I will be stupid enough to stick it out, when other people will go home , because they have "Issues". After 30 years in , I have crossed the line , from Dedication, to Stupidity.


----------



## scm77

The original documentary mentioned is on CBC Newsworld tonight (saturday) at 10:00 EST.


----------



## sgt_mandal

Is it possible they will ever reform anything like the CAR?


----------



## CI Dumaran

I really thought that the documentary was great. Gave me, at least, a different view of the whole thing.

The government... Sheesh!

We need a CAR back, or something along the lines of that fighting number.


----------



## Spr.Earl

This is 3rd time I have seen the documentary and I still admire Brown for what he did.
That took true morals and conviction what he did yet he was the only one who paid a price.
Even though he is or may be hated by his fellow Para‘s at least he knew what he did was wrong and came forward and admitted it.

I salute Kyle Brown for that   
I as a Soldier would do the same. 


The C.O. typicaly retired and went on to higher pay cheque!!

Note Iraq!!!!!!


----------



## Old Cent Hand

Kyle Brown,did the right thing, but our incompentant " Clowns", in NDHQ, and the Government ,burned him. Just another case of people in high places , covering their butt. My God , imagine an Officer, a RMC  Graduate, for instance, tarnishing his precious career.Well these " Clowns" , found a " Scape Goat" , and unfortunately , it was Kyle Brown. At the cost of Kyle Brown‘s career, and his life in general, these " Pompous" asses are living a good life. This includes our " precious Officers" and Politicians. How can these pathetic people live with themselves? Wish I was a Colonel, in Brussels.I am talking about " Dog Nuts" there,Labbe.


----------



## Spr.Earl

Cent no truer words ever said.   

If I ever meet Kyle,I‘ll shake his hand and buy him a round of his choice or the best nosh I could afford.

Kyle Brown by his own actions and knowing the consequence‘s came forward,that is the true mettle of a Soldier to admit what he did.


----------



## Slim

> Originally posted by Spr.Earl:
> [qb] Cent no truer words ever said.
> 
> If I ever meet Kyle,I‘ll shake his hand and buy him a round of his choice or the best nosh I could afford.
> 
> Kyle Brown by his own actions and knowing the consequence‘s came forward,that is the true mettle of a Soldier to admit what he did. [/qb]


I went through Cornwallis with Kyle B. Nice guy, kinda quiet and not much family to speak of...Or protect him/fight for him now that I think of it.


----------



## Foxhound

Sorry to say this, but by the time I left the Forces in '86, the seeds of the destruction of the CAB had already been sown.  Not necessarily by the troops, but the command and training structure probably made it inevitable.

For instance, while on a 6A course in Pet., I casually asked a Trooper where he had been before joining the Airborne.  The response I got?   *"I was nothing, nowhere before the Airborne!!â ?*   Now this particular grunt was an intelligent thinking man, but when it came to the Regiment, no wrong could be done.  In other words, they thought of themselves as little Gods and whatever they did, well the CF would just have to live with it.  Admittedly this was quite a while before Somalia, but it shows that even way back then the rot had already set in.  Atypical of the rank and file within the Regiment, I also met several NCO's who carried with them the very best of the traditions of Commonwealth forces in general and the Canadian Army in particular, but they obviously weren't enough to stem the tide. 

I agree with all who posted that the disbandment of the CAB was premature, inappropriate and all out of proportion.  We miss them terribly, but the CAB should never have been sent to Somalia in the first place.  The Airborne existed to kick AÃ…Å“Ã…Å“ and chew bubble gum, neither of which was necessary in Africa.

Shock troops never make the best peacekeepers.  If you want to know who destroyed the Canadian Airborne Regiment, one need look no further than Parliament.    

Godd save the Quoon


----------



## GerryCan

www.canadianalliance.ca


----------



## excoelis

> In other words, they thought of themselves as little Gods and whatever they did, well the CF would just have to live with it. Admittedly this was quite a while before Somalia, but it shows that even way back then the rot had already set in.


Got a bit of an axe to grind, do we????
So the comments of one trooper where indicative of the whole unit‘s attitude as you perceive it???

Funny thing about young troops, they are loyal to a fault, and their loyalties, however misguided they display them, can shift with their current situation.



> The Airborne existed to kick AÃ…Å“Ã…Å“ and chew bubble gum, neither of which was necessary in Africa.


Oh.....Really???  So when, if ever, have you been to Africa to formulate this opinion that it was such a cakewalk?  I can personally attest to the operational conditions and they where some of the worst I have ever experienced.



> Shock troops never make the best peacekeepers


Fact. It wasn‘t peacekeeping!!!



> If you want to know who destroyed the Canadian Airborne Regiment, one need look no further than Parliament.


Good to see we agree on one of your statements, although it seems to contradict the others.  

My statement:  If you want to know why the Canadian Airborne Regt is still getting dragged through the mud, re-read your own post.


----------



## Infanteer

Ex-coelis, Jungle:

Do you guys feel that the literature out their (Bercuson, Col English, even the Inquiry Reports) is pretty accurate, or is it out to lunch?


----------



## Jungle

To be honest, I haven‘t read all that much about it... The few books I‘ve read were mostly written by guys who have served in the Regt.


----------



## excoelis

I‘ve read Significant Incident, Scapegoat, the results of the inquiry (some of it anyway).....etc.  Most of it is that person‘s version of events based on their ‘investigative journalism‘.  I took issue with a lot of what was said and that could partly be due to a defensive posture and first-hand knowledge of a lot of the events being ‘reported‘.  In the end though the majority of troops that where there don‘t really discuss the whole thing much because they have a ‘soldier on‘ attitude.  I for one only spent a 1/3 of my career in the Regiment, but it had a profound effect on my military ethos, and I mean that in a positive way.  I am, and always was, a proud Canadian, a loyal Royal, and proud to have served in a Regt surrounded by like-minded, hard working, and dedicated SOLDIERS.  I run into guys all the time that I served with in the Abn Regt and the common denominator is that the vast majority have all risen to the top of their trade, civilian vocation, or respective parent Regiments.  So the Regt must have been doing something right, no???

If you want an honest account of the events from a 3 Commando soldiers perspective, read Rob‘s diaries on Commando.org.  He spins an entertaining yarn as he saw things unfold, warts and all.  Be forewarned though, he‘s a bit of a granola head


----------



## excoelis

Some more food for thought.

How long should a Cbt Arms soldier be responsible for a detainee?

Everything we are taught would indicate that the detainee is pushed back to the rear then up the chain of command and finally to the military police and counter-intelligence guys.  Why would you leave him for any longer than is absolutely necessary with the ‘combatants‘ or ‘the pointy end‘ who in the Infantry‘s case has a role of ‘TO CLOSE WITH AND DESTROY THE ENEMY‘ or at the very least are fulfilling some other essential function like security, force protection, patrolling, etc.

Now before some of you get your nickers in a twist - I understand that the army has evolved from Cyprus to Bosnia to Afghanisan etc..... I understand that we have to be a multi-roled, adaptive, and dynamic force due to our lack of numbers â â€œ I understand that the public and their elected officials thrive on the whole peacekeeper image - But I for one am sick and tired of doing all the fukking work while the other ‘support‘ trades train for the standing around team. 

Where were the military police when Shidane Arone was in custody?  Are they not trained to be objective, unbiased, and follow legally sound procedures?  I understand that there wasn‘t near enough of them sent over there to do their mandated job - but is that the grunt‘s fault who is left holding the bag - or the fault of higher.

I can also say that in ‘recent experience‘ the MPs didn‘t really have a grip on what to do with detainees.  I can also recall my INFANTRY troops training local police in this country - like WHAT THE **** IS UP WITH THAT????

Anyway, I‘m ranting and probably pissing off MPs everywhere, but I will leave it at that because there are a lot of other people I could go on about.....................wouldn‘t want to make my position untenable.


----------



## chriscalow

Very well said.


----------



## The Queen`s Bloggins

Most of the usual points about the demise of the CAR have been brought up here. Lack of discipline, bad leadership, political conveience, etc. I have worked with several ex-CAR types who are excellent soldiers and continue to lend their skills to the CF, but the question that has been on my mind for years is "Where were the senior NCOs during all of this?"

We‘ve heard about the junior NCOs like Brown and Matchee and the weak officer cadre, but where were the SNCOs who should have been enforcing some discipline in garrison as well as on missions overseas? During the entire Somalia affair, I recall very few, if any, SNCOs being called to testify or facing discipline for what went on?

Can any of you para types comment on this?


----------



## Rick_Donald

Good documentary.He says that alot of the members of the Regiment left the army shortly after disbandment. That sure is a lot of serious money down the drain just for Cretin to make a point or win votes or whatever fool reason he ordered the disbandment of the CAR.
All the reasons mentioned for it are bullshit. Every unit has a few loose cannons, and sure it is the responsibility of the senior ranks to keep a tight leash on the crazy SOB‘s and harness that gungho energy for the good of the unit.
But you don‘t disband a unit for this.You learn from it and soldier on.
As the author showed us the CAR went on to out perform all units in international competition and bring pride to the Canadian Armed Forces.
But you won‘t read about that in the liberal, left wing media, will you?
As for esprit de corp within the Canadian Airborne Regiment it was well warranted. But needless to say I am just as proud to be an ex Royal as I am to be ex Airborne.


----------



## excoelis

> Originally posted by The Queen‘s Bloggins:
> [qb] Edit for brevity...........
> We‘ve heard about the junior NCOs like Brown and Matchee and the weak officer cadre, but where were the SNCOs who should have been enforcing some discipline in garrison as well as on missions overseas? During the entire Somalia affair, I recall very few, if any, SNCOs being called to testify or facing discipline for what went on?
> 
> Can any of you para types comment on this?     [/qb]


I think you can probably answer that question yourself but if you want to hear it from someone that was there........

*THEY WHERE ASLEEP AT THE FUKKING WHEEL* 

Lots of speculation as to why.  Mostly, I think it comes down to group dynamics.  If you run with a pack of aggressive dogs you best be the Alpha male.  I‘ll leave it at that and hopefully someone within the 2 Cdo ranks will set the record straight.


----------



## Merkava

48Highlander said:
			
		

> Somehow I can't see a bunch of liberal tree-hugging university students suffering through the hazing which new recruits to the CAR had to endure, let alone anything worse.   For instance, I'm sure you heard about the manner in which jump wings were "pinned on" to new members, and I for one doubt very many civvies could handle that.
> 
> And no, I don't have anything against the CAR.   It was a mistake to disband them, and just another example of the government shitting on the CF in order to present a more PC image.



Whats wrong with having your wings pinned on?


----------



## Merkava

48Highlander said:
			
		

> Really?   I heard from an member of the Regiment that blood wings were standard practice for the CAR.   Were you a member?   If my info's wrong, I'll have to talk to that guy again...



I was NOT a common practice, I only saw 3 cases during m 3 years and one was my own. I asked I received


----------



## Doug VT

I was presented my US wings while attached to JRTC in Louisiana.   Everyone who received their wings that day were in the "Blood Wings" fashion.   It's nothing really, but not for the squeamish.   We had one guy (no names) who's wings didn't go in the first time, so they lined them up and hit'em again.   He almost passed out...


----------



## D-n-A

ow..
Do you get a drink of alcohol before you get the blood wings? I'm just basing this off a movie I saw on Force Recon.


What do you have to do to get US Jump Wings? Have the canadian jumpwings, an do 1   jump with american gear and jumpmaster?


----------



## MP 811

I jumped down in Bragg and got my US wings with the 82nd AB MP PL.  Everyone who was on the Starlifter got a crack at me for the blood wing cerimony.  Some guys opted out, some guys pretended to pound me hard, some guys really did pound me hard, and one guy took his kevlar helmet off and gooned me with that.  Worst part was the two prongs kept coming out after every shot so I must of had about 30 puncture wounds!  Wouldn't have traded that experience for anything...................ahhh to be young again!


----------



## MP 811

I actually did 6 during the All American week back in 1988.  I think you can do one or two if your current but not sure.  I think the current jumpers on here would be better able to inform you on that.  It's been a loooooong time for me.


----------



## muskrat89

> As a matter of fact, same goes about any other subject



Boy, if we could make that one stick...........


----------



## Cloud Cover

On CBC Sunday, LCol Kenward spoke in his usual no-nonsense manner. 

"The members of the Canadian Airborne Regiment are owed en masse an apology because this issue is not yet closed. Ten years after the fact, the issue is not closed ..." Do you agree?


In other interesting statements, LCol Kenward revealed that the day the regiment was disbanded, he had driven to Ottawa immediately prior to Collenette's announcement, but the Minister had him wait for several hours and continued to refuse to see him. Kenward drove back to Pet without ever having had a chance to talk personally to the cretin who disbanded the Regiment. Next, Kenward stated that the Minister's office actually called him in Pet to ensure that the order to disband would be carried out... Collenette was apparently afraid the order would be ignored, or perhaps something worse.


----------



## Slim

The most professional soldiers in Canada...Right to the very end!...God, it must have hurt to carry out the disbanding!

The Govt and especially the Fiberals, owe those people in a big way!

Slim


----------



## Armymedic

Its 10 yrs since the CAR was disbanded, and I have to agree, this issue isn't dead, atleast in the military community. Unfortuntely, even if there was will to reinstate another Para capable Bn, there just isn't enough rifles to fill it....

I caught the last half of the article. The most intersting statements were at the end.

Quoted as best as I can remember,

"with the disbandment of the CAR, we lost a capability to deploy rapidly into the most austire conditions."

"The US would have asked for the CAR by name to participate in Afghanistan and Iraq."


----------



## tomahawk6

Yes it was a real shame that the unit was disbanded. When I was a young troop we had the opportunity to work with a company of the CAR and spend a month in Edmonton on a unit exchange. Very professional. It was a real shock to me when we made a jump with the CAR on hitting the ground looked up to see heavy equipment heading down. We do it the opposite, equipment drop first then the personnel. Great memories. I hope the CAR is reactivated it would be a great compliment to JTF2.


----------



## karl28

Yes the Gov should apologize to all the members of the Air Borne it was Canada's best unit ever . It should not of been disbanded because of a couple of bad apples . I had a chance to briefly meet some of the Air borne guys when I was a kid at an air show here in Trenton they where the greatest guys you could ever now .


----------



## 2 Cdo

Disbandment was without a doubt the saddest day I spent in uniform. Ref. the apology, don't hold your breath with the present government!


----------



## Michael Dorosh

The Government does not owe ANYBODY an apology. They are the masters of policy in Canada, not the military. That is as it should be.  I would be appalled if my commanding officer came on to the parade square to apologize for something in the way of a policy, even if he was in the wrong.  That is simply not something that is done.

Whether or not the Airborne should have been disbanded, no one is "owed" a damn thing by the Government.  

When I was with the Canadian contingent to the Beating Retreat of the Scottish Division in the UK many years ago, the senior Canadian drum major wore an American sweater with his CF uniform.  Barracks Dress was sweater and kilt.  We didn't think much of it (or him) but no one cared enough to complain, and if we did, there was no one to complain to.   

Just before we departed Scotland for England after the two weeks of rehearsals, and he had us lined up on the road, he explained why he was wearing the sweater (he had loaned his CF sweater to a piper who neglected to bring one from Canada).  To me, personally, and many of us, he seemed weak after that - stooping to explain something he really didn't have to.

Former airborne soldiers need to get over it.  Better yet, put yourselves in the Government's shoes - a few bad apples brough disgrace and discredit to everyone in uniform at that time.  Disbanding the Regiment may not have made operational sense, but it did give the public some form of reassurance that the disgusting atrocities carried out in Somalia were being taken seriously.

Perhaps one of the armchair politicians would like to explain how best to restore public confidence, after the hazing videos and Somalia enquiry, without disbanding the regiment?


----------



## Jungle

Obviously Mr Dorosh, you did not have to go through the post-Somalia period, and the disbandment. Regt members and their families were harassed by media people, spit on by other members of the Forces, and felt abandonned by the C of C (above Regt level) and the govt.
ALL the Men who served with the Cdn Ab Regt were painted with the same brush in 1995, regardless of what we did or when we served. Try doing the same when a person of a visible minority commits a crime...
We did not disgrace or discredit anyone or anything. Some people committed a crime, or let a crime be committed, and they are the only ones responsible. If you felt disgraced, it only demonstrates how thin skinned you really are. Maybe if you earned a medal other than the CD you would see things differently.
If our govt was able to apologize to Japanese-Cdns for their treatment during WWII, I think they can do the same for us... but like 2CDO said, I'm not holding my breath. I've gotten over that period, but I will never forget it.


----------



## Infanteer

Good point Jungle, the government sure didn't seem too keen on considering what its actions would do to the 99% if the Airborne Regiment who were good soldiers or, for that, matter the rest of the CF who had to wear the shame due to the fact that the government chose an action (disbandment) that collectivized the guilt of a few bad apples, in the eyes of the public, onto the CF as a whole.

Perhaps the Liberals owe not just the Airborne guys but the entire military an apology?


----------



## Cloud Cover

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> The Government does not owe ANYBODY an apology. They are the masters of policy in Canada, not the military. That is as it should be.



That's not how it works .. policy is supposed to be within the confines of the law, and must exercised fairly and in good faith. Arbitrary decisions taken in bad faith and for strictly political reasons are contrary to the public policy of democratic governance.   Hence, this particular action must be viewed in the context of other government policy decisions at the same time [gun control, the 1995 budget, the EIA etc.] ... the product is Jeffrey Simpsons "happy dictatorship."

The government clearly breached it's duty of good faith owed to it's CF members. The government negligently misrepresented the effects of removing a military capability, a very serious matter which was not given any serious consideration at all. That in of itself was completely irresponsible, requiring not just an apology to Canadians, but some accountability as well. I believe Kenward when he says the issue has not finally been dealt with. I'm not sure what he is intimating, [although I have my suspicions] ... but I believe him when he says it's not over.


----------



## Britney Spears

Infanteer beat me to it. If you will accept the goverment of Canada as legitimate representatives of public will, then they owe the CAR no more apology than they owe to the rest of the forces. 
You could make a case that former regiment members as a group were slandered or discriminated against in the course of their careers, as a result of their previous service, but to demand a blanket apology from the goverment in general for the disbandment would seem to fly against too many principles, no? Certainly the federal goverment  was acting within its powers,  since  they, as our paymasters, presumably have the right to restructure the forces in any way they see fit.

Oh, and MOD WAR! WOOHOO! FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT........


----------



## Jungle

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Perhaps the Liberals owe not just the Airborne guys but the entire military an apology?


Heck, they certainly owe the CF an apology for the way they treated them in the last 15 years !!!


----------



## old medic

I had to vote no on this one. 

Was it a good decision, No. Times change however.

I have to agree with Jungle, but I'll go back further...
If they apologize for that, then I want one for all the services and unification, 
and two more for 3 and 4 CMBG.

We'll never see it.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Jungle said:
			
		

> Obviously Mr Dorosh, you did not have to go through the post-Somalia period, and the disbandment. Regt members and their families were harassed by media people, spit on by other members of the Forces, and felt abandonned by the C of C (above Regt level) and the govt.
> ALL the Men who served with the Cdn Ab Regt were painted with the same brush in 1995, regardless of what we did or when we served. Try doing the same when a person of a visible minority commits a crime...
> We did not disgrace or discredit anyone or anything. Some people committed a crime, or let a crime be committed, and they are the only ones responsible. If you felt disgraced, it only demonstrates how thin skinned you really are. Maybe if you earned a medal other than the CD you would see things differently.
> If our govt was able to apologize to Japanese-Cdns for their treatment during WWII, I think they can do the same for us... but like 2CDO said, I'm not holding my breath. I've gotten over that period, but I will never forget it.



You've done NOTHING to answer my question - how was the government supposed to undo the very serious damage undisciplined members of this regiment commited.  The entire Army was indeed painted by the same brush, that wasn't your doing but it wasn't my doing either.

Answer the question instead of insulting my own service.  What could the government have done to restore faith in the millitary?  I bet you don't have an answer.

And no, you obviously HAVEN'T gotten over that period or you wouldn't be getting so pissy about it.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

I think accountability is a good thing whether it comes from an apology or actions.   By apoligizing the present gov't can show an accountability for what has happened.


----------



## youravatar

I do believe the government doesnt owe an appology to the regiment, but i dont believe that the governement was right in disbanding. the governement should as soon as possible create another PARA capable BN, and they shuld carry the name CAR.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

CFL said:
			
		

> I think accountability is a good thing whether it comes from an apology or actions.  By apoligizing the present gov't can show an accountability for has happened.



What are you blathering about?  Did the government ever claim that they DIDN'T disband the regiment?  They took full responsibility for it.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

An apology for making a bad decision.  Being held accountable for making an error is what I'm blathering about.  Just because the majority of people here disagree with your opinion don't come down on me for posting mine.  And yes I can take the flaming I just figured you were above it.


----------



## Jungle

> And no, you obviously HAVEN'T gotten over that period or you wouldn't be getting so pissy about it.


Wow mr Dorosh, who's getting pissy ?? I am not insulting your Service, but you don't see me getting into an argument about playing the bagpipes, do you ? I have no idea how it's played, so I stay away from bagpipe discussions...
You could simply have answered the question without getting into specifics.


> Former airborne soldiers need to get over it.   Better yet, put yourselves in the Government's shoes - a few bad apples brough disgrace and discredit to everyone in uniform at that time.   Disbanding the Regiment may not have made operational sense, but it did give the public some form of reassurance that the disgusting atrocities carried out in Somalia were being taken seriously.


This is where you should have STFU, the first part of that quote. You want me to get into the govt's shoes, are you willing to get into mine ?? I've had to make life and death decisions as a Leader, both in trg AND in Ops; real ones, not some kind of dog and pony in the UK... 
Now, to answer your question: all the govt had to do is give LCol Kenward a chance to explain what had been done in the 18 months since he had taken over as CO. He had gotten rid of most of the problem Soldiers, a number directly to civvie street as he deemed them unfit for the Army. He had improved the unit's trg, and the Regt had won CFSAC and NECIC in the last year before disbandment. Very few units can claim winning these 2 competitions in the same year. Discipline was effectively restored, and I am the first to admit some people had gotten out of control. The govt should have sent an independant team to verify the facts, and report to the govt on their findings. Then the govt reports to the population.
Finally, most Canadians had no opinion on the matter. And those I know that did were against disbandment. The pro-disbandment crowd was very loud; and as usual, the squeaky wheel got the oil...


----------



## Cloud Cover

Taking "responsibility" for the disbandment does not even come close to being equated with accountability. The members of the airborne are at least entitled to know what factors were considered in disbanding the reginent, who those factors were considered by and ultimately who participated in the decision. I would hazzard a guess none of those factors were principally of a military nature. 

The government of the day never once demonstrated a shred of accountability wrt to the disbanding of the unit. I agree they would gleefully take responsibility for committing the act, but it was a senseless and irresponsible thing to do in light of the serious consequences of eliminating the regiment. Obviously, " what were we supposed to do"; "we had no choice"; "it was the right thing to do"; are insufficient. An honest explanation might go a long way to mitigate the circumstances, even today.

There is no way in hell this was a policy driven decision, because written defence policy did not change after the disbandment. It changed by default of political circumstances, contrary to the well established, legally sustainable policy making doctrine of Canadian government. 

Anyway, I think an apology is in order. What better way for PM PM to rub Chretiens face in more doo-doo than have Graham apoligize, perhaps by way of a speech to his UofT academic buddies on theories of civil-military relations. Huntington, anyone?


----------



## Cloud Cover

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> Certainly the federal goverment   was acting within its powers,   since   they, as our paymasters, presumably have the right to restructure the forces in any way they see fit.



This is a pretty good snapshot of the post-GW1 manifestation of one version of Huntington, although purists would suggest the theory is far more nuanced.


----------



## Cloud Cover

old medic said:
			
		

> If they apologize for that, then I want one for all the services and unification,
> and two more for 3 and 4 CMBG.




But don't you think that as long as there are people who continue to use the CAR as a rallying symbol against funding a proper military that even the current government has some responsibility to explain more fully why this happened, assume leadership and then act with some accountability by offering an aplogy?


----------



## Britney Spears

> This is a pretty good snapshot of the post-GW1 manifestation of one version of Huntington, although purists would suggest the theory is far more nuanced.




Well, you obviously spend more time thinking about this than I do. I'll take your word for it.

You as a citizen can and should hold the goverment accountable for making a monumentally stupid and ill thought out decision in the realm of national defence, you can ask for an apology that way if you want, but as long as they still own the hat, they can do whatever they want with it.


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> The Government does not owe ANYBODY an apology. They are the masters of policy in Canada, not the military. That is as it should be.   I would be appalled if my commanding officer came on to the parade square to apologize for something in the way of a policy, even if he was in the wrong.   That is simply not something that is done.
> 
> Whether or not the Airborne should have been disbanded, no one is "owed" a darn thing by the Government.
> 
> When I was with the Canadian contingent to the Beating Retreat of the Scottish Division in the UK many years ago, the senior Canadian drum major wore an American sweater with his CF uniform.   Barracks Dress was sweater and kilt.   We didn't think much of it (or him) but no one cared enough to complain, and if we did, there was no one to complain to.
> 
> Just before we departed Scotland for England after the two weeks of rehearsals, and he had us lined up on the road, he explained why he was wearing the sweater (he had loaned his CF sweater to a piper who neglected to bring one from Canada).   To me, personally, and many of us, he seemed weak after that - stooping to explain something he really didn't have to.
> 
> Former airborne soldiers need to get over it.   Better yet, put yourselves in the Government's shoes - a few bad apples brough disgrace and discredit to everyone in uniform at that time.   Disbanding the Regiment may not have made operational sense, but it did give the public some form of reassurance that the disgusting atrocities carried out in Somalia were being taken seriously.
> 
> Perhaps one of the armchair politicians would like to explain how best to restore public confidence, after the hazing videos and Somalia enquiry, without disbanding the regiment?



First off Michael, you are obviously a bright guy, but your inability to provide a viewpoint without finding a way to demean others is absolutely reprehensible.

Second, your argument is nonsense.   Anyone or any entity who makes decisions is accountable for those decisions and when they make errors in judgement, they MUST step up and apologize.   The lack of this essential act of contrition undermines the legitimacy of the authority. This is not a matter of law.   Laws are written by fallable men and are revised on a regular basis.   It is the application of 'justice' that truly defines leadership and is the responsibility of leaders to those they lead.   For the government to have ignored justice in its attempt to follow a short-sighted and ill-advised public opinion is not justice.   It is vote-pandering cowardice and the fact you applaud it is nauseating.

You do what's right for the right reasons.   Always.   No exceptions.   

No system, structure or hierarchy is exempt from the application of this fundamental tenet of organization.




Matthew.


----------



## old medic

whiskey 601 said:
			
		

> But don't you think that as long as there are people who continue to use the CAR as a rallying symbol against funding a proper military that even the current government has some responsibility to explain more fully why this happened, assume leadership and then act with some accountability by offering an apology?



I think the reality is, there will never be any apology.  It's a rare day a government does such a thing, it opens up liability. That is a dirty word to governments. As far as accountability, sadly there was an election and they won again. Therefore the voters they account too,  can be assumed content with the disbandment.  

If we want to argue for a properly funded military with the voters, we need to be rallying around something they all agree with and like. 
Domestic operations (Manitoba flood, Ice Storm) were things voters liked.  The DART they seem to like.  You can put photos of those things up in public and on front pages. They'll be understood and supported. Not every voter will grasp strategic capabilities. 

I think that's the reality of it.  We need to use the right PR cards if we want to lobby for better funding.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Michael,....please stop, I know you got your back up here, but, please move your post and reread it in 24 hours and see if you  think that it was really a good anology.
> ..and if so , repost....



Here's another analogy - on your basic, if one of the troops in the platoon was undisciplined (not slow, stupid or not able to keep up, but deliberately undisciplined) - did the platoon warrant ever punish the entire platoon until the individual in question learned to tow the line?

So the CAR had a few bad apples.  Why did the Regiment tolerate them?  Why blame the government for their own inability to reign in their own soldiers?

Granatstein talks about the disbandment thusly:



> Where were the sergeants and the officers?  Why didn't they intervene to stop the torture that March night in Belet Uen?  Were they intimidated by their troopers?  Their inaction suggested a complete and wilful breakdown in authority and discipline, and the (hazing) videos provided yet more evidence of this kind.



Even if one passes off the hazing videos as normal ritual in an elite unit (and that too is debatable), how far off the mark is Granatstein, really?  Not to denigrate all the good that the CAR did in Somalia, but at what cost to the reputation of not only themselves but the rest of the military?

If the incidents would never have happened, there would have been no disbandment.  That's pretty black and white, to me.  So who was to blame?  I hope future generations of Canadians on operations will keep the lesson to heart.


----------



## Kirkhill

> What could the government have done to restore faith in the millitary?  I bet you don't have an answer.



Michael:

How about investigate fully in a timely fashion.  Determine possible culprits, have a trial and punish those found guilty.  Quickly, openly and in public and include not just those that got their knuckles bruised but those in the Chain of Command that failed in their duty to make sure that a such a thing could not happen.

It works in most other situations.

I apoligise for piling on but there were other ways to deal with the problems.

I don't know about getting a governmental apology but I would love to hear Collenette and Chretien in front of Judge Gomery, in a new inquiry, offering evidence as to the reason for their actions.

Cheers, Chris.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

That's better, Chris, but it is funny - "the government", a collective body, is being called on to apologize, when really, the disbandments were the actions of a couple of key individuals.  The MP for Yellowknife had nothing to do with it.

Yet when called to task, the defenders of the Airborne jump up and say "oh, but it was just a couple of bad apples, blame the individuals."

The CO, OCs, sergeant majors all had a duty to know what was going on in the unit, the same in any other.  If I drive home drunk from the mess one night and kill someone in a hit and run, everyone from the duty corporal to the PMC to the CO is going to be called on to explain, even if the CO was in another country on vacation and the PMC was off duty, and the duty corporal went home after closing the place down and left the bartender to lock up.

I have no doubts that a vast majority of the CAR were good soldiers - so why did they let it all happen?


----------



## McG

The government acted within its prerogative when it disband the CAR.   The government was not accountable to the CAR, it was accountable to the Canadian public as a whole.   If the decision was bad then an apology may be owed to all Canadians for the decision, but not just to members of the Regt.

Collectively, the reputation of every member of the regiment was dragged through the mud by politicians and the media that failed to identify failings in individuals and labeled the whole group.   For that, an apology would not be unwarranted.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

MCG said:
			
		

> Collectively, the reputation of members of the regiment was dragged through the mud by politicians and the media that failed to identify failings in individuals and labeled the whole group.  For that, an apology would not be unwarranted.



I agree with the stuff I didn't just quote, but wanted to respond to this also.

If Granatstein and Bercuson are to be believed, the regiment had no business being employed in the mission it was on in the first place.  I understand they did good things despite a lot of logistical handicaps.  The CAR's only real combat operation, if memory serves, was in the early days of Cyprus, no, where they performed very well - and in a role they were suited for.

That still doesn't excuse the breaches of discipline that occurred.  How much can you really attribute to "bad apples" without at the least unwilling tolerance?

If nobody really saw the murders coming, had no idea things could progress that far - that is fine.  So how would they prevent it from happening again, that being the case, if the buildup was invisible?


----------



## McG

Bercuson also describes that it was leadership well above the level of the CAR that decided to send the regiment anyway, and that there were efforts being made to turn things around both before and after the incident.  However, several individuals in all levels of the CoC screwing up does not equal to every member of the regiment.


----------



## Paul Gagnon

Not only does the Airborne Regiment deserve an apology but the entire Canadian Forces deserves an apology. However I believe that the apology needs to come not only from the Government of Canada but also from Gen. de Chastelain who did not have the fortitude to discipline the members of the officer corps who protected their own during the inquiry and pinned the blame for the fiasco in Somalia on junior NCOs.

The disbanding was a huge blow to the morale of everyone in the military. It painted us all with the same brush and that stain is still there.


----------



## Cloud Cover

MCG said:
			
		

> The government acted within its prerogative when it disband the CAR.   The government was not accountable to the CAR, it was accountable to the Canadian public as a whole.   If the decision was bad then an apology may be owed to all Canadians for the decision, but not just to members of the Regt.




You are partly right. There was a "special relationship" between the CAR and the government of the day created by the Somalia inquiry and the various ongoing investigations. 

From what I observed on the documentary which prompted the initial post in the thread, it is inevitable that we will learn Somalia and the hazings cannot be as closely linked to the disbandment as some would like us to believe.   Thus, I truly believe Kendall when he says "This issue is not over ..." As more people "in the know" retire and have the requisite temporal distance away from the government, more will come out which should have went to the board of inquiry. IMHO, we will learn that not everything was shredded, or handed over....    

The disbandment cast a premature verdict and stained the reputations on many persons who had nothing to do with Somalia. It would appear the CAR under new management had transformed itself in record time, but sadly to no avail. 

Incidentally, there is nothing owed by the government to an indeterminable class* of persons such as "all Canadians." I realize that I have used the words myself in earlier posts, it was lazy language, and I shouldn't have done so.   The "government" owes a duty of care to the Queen to Parliament and the Courts. Parliament owes allegiance to the Queen, and a duty of care to the constituents to each riding. Parliament owes no deference to the government or the courts.    

I could have sworn some posts in this thread have dissappeared.

* not "un-determinable"


----------



## tomahawk6

Perhaps disbanding the unit was a way to use the mistakes made in Somalia to reduce the size of the Army ?
It would have been easy to relieve the CAR commander and assign a new commander to shake the regiment up.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Well-stated Whiskey, and yes, some posts were moved to the Command Post for a sober rethinking!


----------



## Michael Dorosh

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Perhaps disbanding the unit was a way to use the mistakes made in Somalia to reduce the size of the Army ?
> It would have been easy to relieve the CAR commander and assign a new commander to shake the regiment up.



I thought one of the problems was that they DID have a new CO, just before deployment.


----------



## mo-litia

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Perhaps disbanding the unit was a way to use the mistakes made in Somalia to reduce the size of the Army ?
> It would have been easy to relieve the CAR commander and assign a new commander to shake the regiment up.



Maybe . . . I was once told by an old soldier that the defence budget for Canada used to be split roughly into quarters: one quarter each for the army, navy and airforce, and a quarter to fund the Airborne Regiment.

Any truth to this??

IMO, if it is true this was a likely a major factor in our misgovernment's decision to disband this unit.


----------



## Cloud Cover

mo-litia said:
			
		

> Any truth to this??



Pretty expensive "regiment." It's not true by any stretch of the imagination. Cheers.


----------



## Cloud Cover

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Well-stated Whiskey, and yes, some posts were moved to the Command Post for a sober rethinking!



LOL, Command Post or W.O. Armbuster's drill shed?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Quote from Michael Dorosh,
_Here's another analogy - on your basic, if one of the troops in the platoon was undisciplined (not slow, stupid or not able to keep up, but deliberately undisciplined) - did the platoon warrant ever punish the entire platoon until the individual in question learned to tow the line?

So the CAR had a few bad apples.  Why did the Regiment tolerate them?  Why blame the government for their own inability to reign in their own soldiers?
_

....well Michael, I guess you have a crystal ball that would tell you that, say your unit got the call tonight to run a prison for the forseeable future, as the guards had walked out,  which members of your unit would be able to pull it off and which ones would take liberties?......no thats right they would all be fine or you wouldn't tolerate them.....heres a news flash,...not everybody acts the way they are supposed too.


----------



## 2 Cdo

The main point is that Col Kenward was left waiting by a petty Collenette, who would not entertain any argument that was pro-CAR. When Col Kenward took over command he immediately started to clean house. In very short order any remaining "bad apples" were gone! They(the government) disbanded the Regiment and only then commenced an inquiry. Kind of like sentencing a criminal and then holding his trial!
Dorosh, you seem extremely agitated by the mere gesture of an apology, I only ask what exactly triggered your attitude towards the airborne? Jealousy, failed your jump course? I'm just curious.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

"failed your jump course?"
Oh snap.  Tell you didn't just say that.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> Dorosh, you seem extremely agitated by the mere gesture of an apology, I only ask what exactly triggered your attitude towards the airborne? Jealousy, failed your jump course? I'm just curious.



I find it not only childish but also self-defeating as far as the intended aims of this site go for professional soldiers to come into a public forum (one that has spent so much time in the last two years (successfully, I think) pulling itself out of a gutter formed by ninja-snipers and hotheads) and whine and cry about the same government they've pledged their lives to defend.  Makes the entire site look like a bunch of petulant, spoiled sissies.  The moderators on this board spend an inordinate amount of time seperating the wheat from the chaff, trying to present the Forces, and the individuals that inhabit the Army, in the best light.  Irrational, emotional, visceral anti-government rants are something I expect to read in the pages of Espirit de Corps.  

This forum has grown from one that had once been taken over by Army cadets, dullards, and the hard to get along with, and has really blossomed - thanks in large part to the moderation - into something very useful, entertaining, and in my opinion, something for Mike Bobbitt and all involved to be very proud of.  We've also gotten lots of media attention in the last little while and I expect that to continue.  

"God give me the strength to change the things I can, accept the things I can't, and the wisdom to know the difference."

Feel free to take your speculation about my own career and leave them out of this conversation as they are irrelevant, and technically against forum posting guidelines.

Does that make it clear enough for you?  Questioning government policy is one thing, and it is a free country.  But making bizarre demands that are beyond your comprehension to understand why they can't be fulfilled, or beyond the ability of most posters to understand the depth of passion behind your own reasoning (few of us, as I no doubt you love to remind people, served in the CAR), simply makes us all look bad and will in the end be bad for the site, as good posters leave for fear of being associated with anti-government types shooting their mouth off in a seemingly consequence free environment.  This site was almost like that once, the staff have resolved not to let that happen again.

See Michael O'Leary's brilliant post on topics that keep repeating themselves without resolution.


----------



## 2 Cdo

How are my demands bizarre? In case you missed the sarcasm of the "failed your jump course" remark all I was trying to understand is why you seem to have an almost irrational dislike for the Airborne Regiment. You then insult me with comments that state "beyond your comprehension to understand " Without any mention of your career the question still stands. Why do you seem to harbour an intense dislike for the Airborne?
As for your comment about serving in the CAR, NOWHERE do I ever make any remarks regarding service in the Airborne, nor have I ever insulted anyones else service! You on the other hand don't seem to have any problems with insulting others!


----------



## Michael Dorosh

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> How are my demands bizarre?



I've answered that already and don't see it in the board's interests to reiterate.  Let's agree to disagree.



> In case you missed the sarcasm of the "failed your jump course" remark all I was trying to understand is why you seem to have an almost irrational dislike for the Airborne Regiment.



Based on what?  My position is that the government doesn't "owe" anyone an apology, CAR included. The CAR doesn't exist anymore, so like or dislike is irrelevant.  I don't necessarily agree disbanding was the answer, but would have liked to seen an intelligent discussion of why it occurred.  We didn't get that, did we?



> You then insult me with comments that state "beyond your comprehension to understand "



What insult?  If you comprehended, you wouldn't have had to ask twice, as you just did.  There are lots of things beyond my comprehension, I like to think I admit to them. No insult if it is true.



> Without any mention of your career the question still stands. Why do you seem to harbour an intense dislike for the Airborne?
> As for your comment about serving in the CAR, NOWHERE do I ever make any remarks regarding service in the Airborne, nor have I ever insulted anyones else service!



You are correct, that was Jungle, I certainly apologize if it appeared I was accusing you of doing that, as you most certainly did not.



> You on the other hand don't seem to have any problems with insulting others!



Again, that was not my intent.

As Capt. O'Leary points out in his other post (which I can't locate - tried to post the URL for you), perhaps this topic has outlived its usefulness?


----------



## Kirkhill

> the same government they've pledged their lives to defend



Michael: 

I think this comment is a little off base.  And actually it indicates a serious problem in the structure of the CF and the Canadian Government.  

I believe the "Pledge" that CF members are required to give is to "Her Majesty ........".  Now, us Monarchists assume that she represents the State and the we the people of the State (regardless of how many Nations may be involved), and so by Pledging allegiance to her we are pledging ourselves to act at Her Command and assuming that she will always act in the best interest of the State.  An iffy proposition, even for a Monarchist.  But that is the pledge.

Now many people will find many reasons to join the CF.  I would venture that protecting Her Majesty isn't on the top ten list for most Canadians.  However protecting Jean Chretien, Paul Martin, Steven Harper ( Or God forbid Jack Layton) probably isn't in the offing either.

In the absence of a firm contract and oath that people actually believe (Gawd some folks are going to have a field day with this one) I think that most Canadians that join, and join not just for the job, join in order to defend their Nation (regardless of how you define that).  The Government administers the nation.  The Political Government, as opposed to the Civil Authority or Bureaucracy, is a temporary agency that can be hired and fired according to the whims of the Nation.  The Nation stands and most people relate to their family, friends and (Country-Nation-State), that is what they are signing up for.

Cheers.


----------



## OatmealSavage

This post is meant to be a slap on the back of the head. Dorosh is right. The government owes you three hots and a cot, that's it. As a certain PPCLI Platoon Comd once said "shut up and do your f***ing job". Politicians and senior officers in Canada have always engaged in arsecovering, and they always will. Get used to it. If you don't like the way you are being treated get out and get a union job.

The entire regiment slept or drank beer while a kid was getting tortured to death. Members saw it and did nothing. The entire regiment shares the guilt even more than they share battle honours from a war that took place before they were born. The proud history and traditions were not enough to prevent this disgrace, so what are they worth? Maybe the regiment should have been given a hundred-year dishonour to wear on their uniforms. I heard the NSaskR uniform includes a noose shaped lanyard, representing some members who were hung for rape in the Great War. Maybe a Yellow patch or cockle worn behind the cap badge. Most important, Kenward should have been given his bowler hat, along with every supervisor in the chain of command down to Matchee. But disbandment works too. Nothing will focus the mind like a hanging.

How many battalions have been eliminated from the Canadian Order of Battle in history? How many Canadian units have been threatened with disbandment because their retention and recruitment efforts suck? How many colours are laid up in churches across the Commonwealth? Quite a few I think -Most with more history than the airborne, and they didn't murder anybody, and they ate no feces. If the gov't feels the need to reap a peace dividend and make some people or units redundant that's their responsibility. If they can enforce discipline in their army with the same act that is efficiency. Now everybody knows there is a huge penalty for a CO who fails to supervise. 

All those lawn darts went back to their regiments and new jump companies anyway, the weapons are in stores, and the hercs are still available, so all you need is workup training to recreate the capability that was lost. 3VP did just fine in Afghanistan, unless the entire battalion were to jump in, little would be added by the airborne.

I _am_ bitter that I never got to serve with the airborne regiment. I am also entirely certain that if I had stuck my head in the bunker I would have sorted Matchee out. No one did. No one, from Private to Colonel and it makes me want to puke.


----------



## chriscalow

OatmealSavage said:
			
		

> .
> 
> The entire regiment slept or drank beer while a kid was getting tortured to death. Members saw it and did nothing.




I think that's a bit out of line buddy,  you may or may not have a point, and god knows I don't agree with it, but I think that is pushing it just a little bit, no?


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Actually it wasn't "The entire regiment slept or drank beer while a kid was getting tortured to death."   It was 2 Commando, 1 and 3 weren't there (unless each commando was considered a Regiment) but I'll let the guys that served there add the particulars.
P.S.   its sucks to be a scapegoat.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

I locked this,even though I didn't want to, but I can see no good coming in the future here.

Oatmeal Savage,
This line,...._The entire regiment slept or drank beer while a kid was getting tortured to death. Members saw it and did nothing_.....means you have no idea of what you are talking about, you just couldn't have answered no, eh?

Alas I have to lock this or edit that post as it does nothing to add to the conversation,...au contraire.
wait......

....allright here it is, what I want is someone more in the knowledge than I to rebuttal his post, and not with the sledgehammer approach, anyone can see with his "lawn darts" anology among others he just has a hate on, so someone please show him the error of his ways WITHOUT  resorting to the kind of name-calling that this site does not need.

_...if anyone just posts to scream at said person than I will lock it back up and probably delete it._

...if anyone has a  problem with this than you can PM Mr. Bobbitt and complain.
Thank you
Bruce


----------



## 2 Cdo

"Lawn dart" is a derogatory term! Used in some places would probably get you a smack in the head! It is right up there with the terms "wog" or "leg" which used towards certain people also might get you a smack in the head!
It was a term I heard used in battalion by persons who had either never jumped before or failed their jump course. Nine times out of ten the person making said remark was a best a marginal soldier, best just to ignore said individuals.
As it has been posted many times before(and probably many times in the future) if you can't discuss here without resorting to insults do everyone a favour and leave!
Wow, a whole post and I don't think I've offended anyone! ;D


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

> Wow, a whole post and I don't think I've offended anyone!



The day is still young!


----------



## gnplummer421

IMHO the answer is a resounding YES, but our Government can do no wrong and therefore they will never admit ever to making a mistake..look at the Gun registry fiasco.


----------



## RCA

First, let me state that the disbanding of the CAR was a mistake.

However, we are subordinate to the gov't and therefore an apology is inappropriate. An explanation would be more forthcoming.  It would be the same as the gov't apologizing for cutting EI benefits or raising taxes. It might be apples and oranges, but you get my drift. Disbanding was theire prerogative, and was with, at the minimum, consultation, and the most, agreement of the CDS and his staff. Therefore the CF had its hand there too, because I don't remember any Senior staff resigning over it.

The gov't would not apologize anyway, as "they" feel that they did nothing wrong. Just as there will be no apology for the overdue replacement of Sea Kings and Labradors which has actually cost lives. With the new CO taking charge, the Regiment should have been given the opportunity to change. Unfortunately, it didn't happen. But, the Sharone incident didn't cause the disbandment. If that had been the only incident, then I am sure it would have weathered the storm. Unfortunately, it became a media magnet and all sorts of shit started to stick to it (ie hazing videos). The gov't had to be seen to do something, therefore the outcome. As we all know. not only is maintaining discipline important, discipline must be seen to be done.

The general public doesn't care/know about the Airborne, and if pressed, would venture the opinion that it was a "rogue"  Regiment and deserved what it got. As I have said before you hear something often enough, it becomes fact. I bet the gov't probably believes that also, if it came up on their radar. I know that an apology would be important to the Airborne fraternity in particular, and the Army in general but it just isn't going to happen.

An important note is this time period in the CF history changed all of us. This was the beginning of SHARP, rise of PAFFOs, easier to cut our budgets, the higher ups shirking their responsibilities (Boyle), and general plunge in the CF moral. Members didn't want to wear their uniform in public (at least in NDHQ). At the time, Yugo was heating up, and the general public didn't know that Canadian soldiers were getting shot at and were shooting shooting back ( Medak just being one example). I think the general public would be very surprised of the shit that was flying around both Somalia and Yugo, and what an excellent job the vast majority did. I think thats the crime, and recognition is just starting to happen. The Somalia "incident and the disbandment of the CAR was our Vietnam, and I don't think the CF actually started to redeem itself in the public eyes until the Winnipeg floods in 1997, and come up in the public's eyes during OP Appolo.


----------



## winchable

I'd like a site where all the people with experience wouldn't take a carte blanche to be complete dicks.
I'd also like a site where people didn't pointlessly flame someone they disagree with because they can't form a coherent counterargument without making themselves look like a 10 year who just learned how to swear.

Neither of is getting what we want, the difference being I'll still be here tomorrow and I'm not a crusty old bugger who needs to compensate for his petite wang by flaming MO clerks.


Tootles Sweetheart.


----------



## Infanteer

Those three posts were so inanely retarded that I just deleted them.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Well that (following posts) makes no sense at all now Infanteer.


----------



## Franko

Well I'm kinda at a loss....and confused.

Thanks Infanteer   

As for the whole apologie from the gov't.....it'll never happen.

I was never in the CAR nor am I a jumper however, I knew lots of jumpers in the CAR...all fine troops, best I ever seen. That being said, I was beside myself when I saw the tapes. 

Then after the change of COs and the "clearing house" that happened (the news made it to Gagetown) everything sounded like it was fixed and the CAR was back on track...better than ever.

Then the announcement.... everyone I knew was shocked. There was profused lobbying at the local MPs office.

The decision was made....by people who were blinded by protecting their own arse, and will never make ammends.

Well done Liberals....   :

Regards


----------



## S McKee

RCA said:
			
		

> First, let me state that the disbanding of the CAR was a mistake.
> 
> However, we are subordinate to the gov't and therefore an apology is inappropriate. An explanation would be more forthcoming.   It would be the same as the gov't apologizing for cutting EI benefits or raising taxes. It might be apples and oranges, but you get my drift. Disbanding was theire prerogative, and was with, at the minimum, consultation, and the most, agreement of the CDS and his staff. Therefore the CF had its hand there too, because I don't remember any Senior staff resigning over it.
> 
> The gov't would not apologize anyway, as "they" feel that they did nothing wrong. Just as there will be no apology for the overdue replacement of Sea Kings and Labradors which has actually cost lives. With the new CO taking charge, the Regiment should have been given the opportunity to change. Unfortunately, it didn't happen. But, the Sharone incident didn't cause the disbandment. If that had been the only incident, then I am sure it would have weathered the storm. Unfortunately, it became a media magnet and all sorts of crap started to stick to it (ie hazing videos). The gov't had to be seen to do something, therefore the outcome. As we all know. not only is maintaining discipline important, discipline must be seen to be done.
> 
> The general public doesn't care/know about the Airborne, and if pressed, would venture the opinion that it was a "rogue"   Regiment and deserved what it got. As I have said before you hear something often enough, it becomes fact. I bet the gov't probably believes that also, if it came up on their radar. I know that an apology would be important to the Airborne fraternity in particular, and the Army in general but it just isn't going to happen.
> 
> An important note is this time period in the CF history changed all of us. This was the beginning of SHARP, rise of PAFFOs, easier to cut our budgets, the higher ups shirking their responsibilities (Boyle), and general plunge in the CF moral. Members didn't want to wear their uniform in public (at least in NDHQ). At the time, Yugo was heating up, and the general public didn't know that Canadian soldiers were getting shot at and were shooting shooting back ( Medak just being one example). I think the general public would be very surprised of the crap that was flying around both Somalia and Yugo, and what an excellent job the vast majority did. I think thats the crime, and recognition is just starting to happen. The Somalia "incident and the disbandment of the CAR was our Vietnam, and I don't think the CF actually started to redeem itself in the public eyes until the Winnipeg floods in 1997, and come up in the public's eyes during OP Appolo.




Couldn't have said better myself. (A former member of the Regt) J


----------



## Lance Wiebe

I had to vote "no".

The government of the day had to do something serious to show Canadians, and the military itself, that they are our masters, after all.  The military tried hushing it up, then sweeping it under a rug, but the military is, after all, responsible to the government.  The military itself blew it.  If the CDS, or even the army commander, had stepped forward, taken responsibility, and shown how they would correct things, then maybe the disbandment would not have happened.  

I figure that the senior leadership of the army in the time in question owe the apologies.

Not the government.


----------



## Rick_Donald

CFL said:
			
		

> I think accountability is a good thing whether it comes from an apology or actions.  By apoligizing the present gov't can show an accountability for what has happened.


accountability & Liberal Government. Isn't that an oxymoron?


I think the ultimate apology would be to clean out NDHQ of all the civilian puppetmasters, restore a decent budget for the Canadian Armed Forces and let the people who know how to soldier run the army.

I know that as soldiers we are to serve Canada before ourselves but didn't the present government of Canada promise more troops and cash to the CF. Where is it?


----------



## Kirkhill

http://portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/02/11/nabuse11.xml


----------



## PPCLI Guy

Insert Quote
Quote from: CFL on February 06, 2005, 16:26:10
I think accountability is a good thing whether it comes from an apology or actions.  By apoligizing the present gov't can show an accountability for what has happened.



> accountability & Liberal Government. Isn't that an oxymoron?



Governments are routinely held to account - its called an election.

Dave


----------



## Slim

I think that Sir Winston Churchill said it best when he said that the best argument against Democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter...

Slim


----------



## Gouki

Without going into too much detail here, yes, I do think the Gov't owes an apology. They went too far (imo) by disbanding the entire regt.. taking the easy way out instead of taking the time to root out the problems and keep the regt intact.


----------



## dutchie

If the Government had to apologize to every group, individual, and nation everytime it made a mistake, it would take all day, every day. You'd have some lackie standing on Parliament Hill yapping like a deranged town crier.

No applogy will bring the Regiment back, nor will it appease those who were personally affected by the disbandment. What is the purpose of an applogy? To let us know they cocked it up? We know that. Is it to let the public know? I don't think they much care anymore, it would be a 5 second bullet on the evening news, and that's it. Is it to bring back the CAR? That won't happen until they are needed operationally (IMHO) or until the Americans really pressure us for it. 

So what purpose would it serve? Other than to set a precedent for apologizing for every mistake.


----------



## Cloud Cover

Without stating whether or not the CAR should receive an apology,I would like to point out that a public   apology is one of a range of appropriate legal remedies for libelous, discriminatory or arbitrary collective punishment actions taken by the state and other legal persons [such as an individual or a corporation]. The remedy of an apology exists by statute, and it is there for a purpose. Therefore, the precedent has not only been set, it is regularly exercised. The issue in the context of the AB is one of ideology, not the appropriateness or flood gate effects of an apology by the government.


The disbandment of the CAR immediately crystallized the issue and forever tarnished the reputation of many thousands of excellent soldiers who continue to suffer the effects of guilt by innocent association to a criminal action in which they had no part and over which they had no control. While a couple of lowlifes committed the crimes, the government of the day inexcusably caused the foregoing damage to the innocent. I believe this is how the CO of the CAR feels when he says the issue is not closed, and I think he may be right. The damage is inexcusable because the entire issue could have been handled much better and it begs the question that if this was any other group in society, would the lackeys to JC in Cabinet have so fearlessly taken the decision that they did?


----------



## ejmarty64

Looking for OOB & TOE for the Canadian Airborne Regiment.

I know that initially it had the following:

HQ squadron
two large airborne commandos (one French speaking)
an airborne engineer squaron
an airborne artillery battery
an airborne signal squadron
an airborne service squadron

and then later reorganised into;

HQ & Signal squadron
three 150-man airborne commandos (one from each regiment - RCR, PPCLI,
and R22eR)
and the airborne service commando

Can anyone verify or expand on this?

Thanx in advance.....


----------



## George Wallace

ejmarty64 said:
			
		

> Looking for OOB & TOE for the Canadian Airborne Regiment.
> 
> I know that initially it had the following:
> 
> HQ squadron
> two large airborne commandos (one French speaking)



Make that three.....one from each regiment - RCR, PPCLI,
and R22eR


			
				ejmarty64 said:
			
		

> an airborne engineer squaron
> an airborne artillery battery
> an airborne signal squadron
> an airborne service squadron
> 
> and then later reorganised into;
> 
> HQ & Signal squadron
> three 150-man airborne commandos (one from each regiment - RCR, PPCLI,
> and R22eR)
> and the airborne service commando
> 
> Can anyone verify or expand on this?
> 
> Thanx in advance.....



Initially there was to be a complete Armour Recce Sqn, but that was cut before the Unit was stood up.  In the end there was a dedicated Armoured Recce Troop that was made up of "Active" Jumpers.

If I am not wrong, there were only an Jump Bty of Artillery, and a Jump Troop of Engineers.  There were no Service Battalion Jumpers, only Supply Technicians, Mechanics, Rad Techs, and such who were actually posted into the Airborne Regiment.

I think that you will find out more if you look at www.commando.org


----------



## Love793

There was also a 3rd Mech Commando, located in Lahr


----------



## George Wallace

I believe, they are what made up the 3rd Commando.  Two were in Canada, and one in Baden Sollingen.  They were replaced by 3 RCR and returned to Edmonton in the late 70's.


----------



## TCBF

Initially, 1er Cdo and 2 Cdo were small Bn sized units.  A, B and C Cie in 1er Cdo, and D, E and F Coy in 2 Cdo.  After the "Crunch" of 68 - 70, outside of the AB Regt, there were 10 inf bns at the time Lahr/Baden 2, Gagetown 1,Valcartier/Citadel 2, Petawawa 1 ,London 1, Winnipeg 1, Calgary 1, Esquimalt 1) and since no one wanted to give a 4th bn to one of the inf regts, the tenth bn - created when the Cdn Bde in Germany shrank and moved south to Baden in 1970 - became 3 Mech Cdo, "Born in a Storm" in 1970 from - I think - combining the soldiers from 2RCR and 2PPCLI , as those bns returned to Canada.  2PPCLI to Fort Osbourne Barracks (later re-named Kapyong) and 2 RCR to take over the Black Watch in Gagetown.

When the Cdn AB Regt moved from Edmonton to Petawawa in the summer of 1977, it shrank again, losing 1 AB Bty, and it's Engineers.  Our Army shrank also, losing another Inf Bn, and 3 Mech Cdo was no more. It was replaced in Baden by  3RCR bn, then 2PPCLI to 1988, then another RCR bn.


----------



## TCBF

"CREATION OF THE CANADIAN AIRBORNE REGIMENT
In 1966, the Chief of the Defence Staff, General J.V Allard, began plans for an airborne capability in the form of a radically different, specialized unit.4 Out of this initiative, the Canadian Airborne Regiment (CAR) was established on April 8, 1968. Located at CFB Edmonton, the Regiment's principal roles were defence of Canada operations against small-scale enemy incursions in the north, provision of short-notice response to United Nations requests for peace operations, and operations in limited or general war within the context of a larger allied force, particularly a variety of 'special service' missions, including pathfinders, deep patrolling and winter operations, and domestic operations in response to civil authorities.5 

The CAR was organized as a unit of the Canadian Forces within Mobile Command. Generally, membership in the Regiment was about 900 in all ranks, with a regimental headquarters and six units: the airborne headquarters and signal squadron, which provided the normal communications and headquarters function; two infantry commandos -- 1er Commando Aéroporté and 2nd Airborne Commando; 1st Airborne Battery, which provided field artillery; 1st Airborne Field Engineer Squadron, providing combat support; and 1st Airborne Service Company, providing service support. Second- and third-line support was provided by 1st Field Service Support Unit (1FSSU), a special unit that, although not part of the Regiment, was created to support the Regiment. Service support was brought entirely into the CAR in 1975 with the amalgamation of 1 FSSU and 1st Airborne Service Company to form 1st Airborne Service Support Unit.6 The regimental commander, having the rank of colonel, exercised the powers of a commander of a formation.7 One of the two airborne infantry units (ler Commando) was francophone. This unit was eventually manned entirely by volunteers from the Royal 22e Regiment and moved from Valcartier to Edmonton in 1970. 

MOVE TO CFB PETAWAWA
In 1976, the Chief of the Defence Staff, General Jacques Dextraze, concluded that the Canadian land forces, with a combat group and an airborne regiment in the west, a small combat group in central Canada, a combat group in Quebec, and an independent battalion in the Maritimes, were deployed in an unbalanced manner. His plan was to have a brigade group in the west, a brigade group in the east, and a quick-reaction regimental combat group in the centre. The result was the creation of a quick-reaction combat group in central Canada, an airborne/air transportable formation created by combining units of the CAR with those of 2 Combat Group at CFB Petawawa.8 

Thus, in 1977, the CAR became part of the new Special Service Force (SSF), a brigade-sized command with a strength of 3,500, created to provide a small, highly mobile, general-purpose force that could be inserted quickly into any national or international theatre of operations.9 The Regiment moved from CFB Edmonton to CFB Petawawa and was downsized in the process, losing its gunners and engineers. It also lost its field support unit; logistic support would now come instead from the SSF's service battalion. 

Within the CAR itself, the Airborne Service Company was resurrected to provide immediate first-line logistical support. 

In 1979, 3 Commando was established as a new airborne unit. This resulted in a ceiling of about 750 members in all ranks, organized into three smaller company-sized commandos.10 The three infantry commandos now took shape around the three regimental affiliations: 1 Commando with the Royal 22e Régiment, 2 Commando with Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, and 3 Commando with The Royal Canadian Regiment. 

With the move to CFB Petawawa, the regiment's chain of command lengthened, because it was now a unit under the Special Service Force and one link further from the most senior army commander. On the other hand, the move to CFB Petawawa did allow for closer supervision of the CAR, because it was now under the direction of the commander of the Special Service Force. Moreover, the reorganization had the effect of diluting the CAR's former uniqueness in the army, since it was now shared with the rest of the new parent formation, the SSF. Later, the introduction of the army area command system placed Land Force Central Area between the SSF and Force Mobile Command headquarters. Thus, a unit intended in 1968 to be a resource answerable directly to the commander of the army and, through that commander, to the chief of the defence staff fell inside the 'normal' chain of command, without any apparent change in its operational mandate or concept of operations."

That is from a DND Doc on the Internet.  Google/Yahoo Canadian Airborne Regiment.


----------



## George Wallace

Tom

Very good post, but it left out all mention of the original plans for an Armour Recce Sqn and the Armour Recce Elements that were later instituted.  I know you were there, so I imagine that it may be a bit of a sore point to any of the Hussar and RCD Jumpers who were filling Operational Jump positions.  I have been trying to get photos, stories and nominal rolls from the Jump Troop for several years, with little success, for the Archives.  I have also had requests from Bernt Horn and Micheal Wyzinski (SP) for info on who was in the Jump Troops over the years and stories for their research.  Too many have said they would give, but procrastinated in the end.


----------



## baboon6

What vehicles would the Recce Troop have used? Ferrets?


----------



## George Wallace

Recce Troop used Lynx C&R.  They were airdropped on several occasions.

Before you go to the next question.....no the troops did not remain mounted when their vehicles were airdropped.  Vehicles and Pers jumped separately, reuniting once they were on the ground.


----------



## TCBF

Most of the time the Lynx were not dropped in.  Too expensive, and Lynx dont "learn" from the experience.  Jumping into Round Lake (onto Bonnechere Airfield) and DZ Orange near Earlton in the Winter of 1984, in both cases the Lynx were pre-positioned.  I think they dropped them near Gander in 1985, but I was in Cornwallis 84 - 86 and missed that and the 1985 drop onto Trenton Airfield that racked up so many guys.  

George, thanks for the gentle arse-kick about procrastinating - you are correct, and I must get to it.

Tom


----------



## Danjanou

Tom, I think you meant Goosebay not Gander, 1985 sounds about right "Lightning Strike" IIRC.


----------



## TCBF

Yup.  I wasn't there.  So, figures I'd get it wrong.


----------



## ejmarty64

"Initially, 1er Cdo and 2 Cdo were small Bn sized units.  A, B and C Cie in 1er Cdo, and D, E and F Coy in 2 Cdo. "

How were these Commandos organised?


----------



## Roger

Love793 said:
			
		

> There was also a 3rd Mech Commando, located in Lahr



3 Mech Commando was in Baden, 1 R22R was in Lahr. I do not know why they made 3 Mech Commando, they wore the Maroon Beret and the Canadian Airborne Regiment badge and so forth, but the majority where not jump qualified. At the time the Canadians where in the North in the British sector, But after France pulled out of Germany the Canadians moved south and took over their area of responsibility. Also at the same time the Canadian Armed Forces was disbanding many of the Regular force units like the Black Watch and so forth, then re-badge the English units in Germany to 3 Mech Commando and the R22R stayed the way they where. Late 60's early 70's


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Chop said:
			
		

> I do not know why they made 3 Mech Commando, they wore the Maroon Beret and the Canadian Airborne Regiment badge and so forth, but the majority where not jump qualified.



An interesting tidbit for the cadet forum....


----------



## TCBF

As stated above, we had ten inf bns at the time.  Who gets to decide which reg for inf regt gets a fourth bn while the other two only get three?  No takers, so, the tenth has to have a different affiliation, hence 3 Mech Cdo.


----------



## baboon6

So was 3 Mech Cdo a full-size infantry battalion or the same size as the other (Airborne) Commandos at the time?


----------



## TCBF

Full size mech bn with a HUGE ADP: 106mm RR and SS11.


----------



## baboon6

Do you remember how many of each? Sounds a bit like the infantry bn a mate of mine served with in the Belgian Army in the late 70s, it had two platoons of Jagdpanzer Kanone (4 guns each plt), plus Milan and 90mm rocket launchers. BTW the army here (in South Africa) still has the 106, in motorised inf bns. sorry to go a bit off-topic, thanks.


----------



## TCBF

I prob have it somewhere, but it would take me all weekend to find it.   ;D

Someone out there was prob in it, and would remember.

Lots of Militia flyovers to flush out # Mech in the early to mid seventies.


----------



## George Wallace

In the End, 1977 - Disbandment, the CAR was only Bn Plus strength on its' Manning Slate.  Each of the three Commando's were just over Company strength in manning.  In time of war, I imagine, the plan would have been to fluff up each Commando to Bn size, and therefore make a complete Regiment along the lines of the other Regular Infantry Regiments.

As is, the CAR was commanded by a Col, with LCols  commanding the Commandos.  Each Commando had its' own Colours.

I do not think that 3 Mech Cdo served in Northern Germany, prior to the move south in 1970.  They were stood up in Baden-Soellingen in June 1970, and later moved to join the CAR in Petawawa in June 1979 making a total of three Rifle Commandos in the regiment.


----------



## Jungle

The CAR lost it's formation status in 1992 and became a unit. Before that, it was commanded by a Col, the 2ic was a LCol and the CDOs were commanded by Majors. Each CDO had it's own colours, as each was unit. The CDOs also had an Ops-O, an Adjt and a BOR  on strength, to permit expansion to Battalion size.
After 1992, the CAR became the largest Infantry Battalion in the Army, with the normal 3 Rifle CDOs, HQ CDO, SVC CDO, and a large CBT SUP CDO that included, on top of the usual Cbt Sup Pls, an Air Def Pl and a Cbt Eng Pl.
I believe authorized strength was just over 700.


----------



## Petrus

ejmarty64 said:
			
		

> "Initially, 1er Cdo and 2 Cdo were small Bn sized units.  A, B and C Cie in 1er Cdo, and D, E and F Coy in 2 Cdo. "
> 
> How were these Commandos organised?



You may find it interesting that in the TOandEs Yahoo Group http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/TOandEs/ a thread on the Canadian Airborne Regiment has appeared. 
Some posts give info on the Regiment structure, eg. 
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/TOandEs/message/11344
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/TOandEs/message/11194

Perhaps more is to come, so try looking there.

Best regards,
Piotr


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

I'll just point out that a) This question was asked just under two years ago and b) the questioner is no longer a member of the message board.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Reviving an old subject.

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/05/29/feds-should-apologize-to-disbanded-airborne-regiment

    Feds should apologize to disbanded Airborne Regiment 

By Kris Sims ,Parliamentary Bureau 
OTTAWA - They were Canada's best of the best.

Before Joint Task Force 2 (JTF2), the Canadian Airborne Regiment was the elite rapid-response unit in the Armed Forces for more than a generation - with roots reaching back to the Second World War.
Now, 16 years after the Somalia inquiry which resulted in its “disbandment in disgrace,” the final commanding officer of the regiment is demanding an apology from the federal government.

“When they disbanded the regiment, they tore the heart out of me, and of every other man that was serving that day and serving in that regiment before,” said retired colonel Peter G. Kenward. “It was a miscarriage of justice, it was grossly unfair and it was a politically expedient move by the Liberal government of the day.”

The regiment was a specialized group of Army soldiers selected to jump out of airplanes into hostile territory. The storied group of paratroopers traces back to the First Canadian Parachute Battalion, which landed behind enemy lines on D-Day in 1944.
Officially formed in 1968, the Canadian Airborne Regiment was most notably deployed during the 1970 October Crisis to thwart a terrorist threat from the FLQ, and in 1974 to Cyprus during a civil war.

It was the 1992 peacekeeping mission in Somalia where things went wrong. A Somali teenager was tortured and killed, and several Canadian soldiers were court martialed. After the official inquiry, the federal Liberal government disbanded the entire regiment.
“The soldiers, the people who built that regiment, 99.9% were so harshly punished for the misdeeds and the wrongs of a few,” said Kenward. “Under any justice system, that is totally unacceptable.”
Groups dedicated to the “Airborne Brotherhood” are filled with calls that the regiment be reinstated and the term “disgrace” removed from the official record. Many young soldiers still wear the disbanded colours.

The Conservative MP representing CFB Petawawa, the final home of the Airborne, supports the call.
“One way would be to resurrect the colours. They took down all of their symbols and to this day you can still see, peaking through a wall that was white-washed, the shadow of the Airborne,” said Cheryl Gallant. “It will be an honour for me, as a member of the Conservative majority government, to see how this historic wrong can be corrected.”

kris.sims@sunmedia.ca





It would be about time and a good way to slap the Liberals when they are down.


----------



## Journeyman

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Now, 16 years after the Somalia inquiry which resulted in its “disbandment in disgrace,”....


 As a member of the Airborne Regiment through the disbandment, I recall the leadership being quite adamant that the disbandment was not "in disgrace."

Perhaps they were clutching at administrative/legalistic straws, but it was a significant point for the overwhelming majority of us who had never tortured anyone to death and felt we were all being punished for the acts of a few...._most_ of whom were already being punished.


An apology would be nice, but there's no need to resurrect the Regiment (as per the news story's comments); CSOR already fills that niche.


----------



## dapaterson

Let's make a deal:  The government will apologize the same day the former COs and RSMs who failed to ensure discipline in the unit also make a public apology for their failings.



Anyone?  Bueller?


----------



## Journeyman

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Let's make a deal:  The government will apologize the same day the former COs and RSMs who failed to ensure discipline in the unit also make a public apology for their failings.


Let the spiralling begin...   :

.....but you may note that the one CO who _tried_ to address the discipline issues was sacked. 
The Airborne's "problems" were exacerbated beyond the Regimental level.


----------



## dapaterson

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Let the spiralling begin...   :
> 
> .....but you may note that the one CO who _tried_ to address the discipline issues was sacked.
> The Airborne's "problems" were exacerbated beyond the Regimental level.



Yes.  There were good leaders who tried, and others who did not.

This is not a simple yes/no, good/bad situation; there are kudos and criticisms that can legimitlately be sent in all directions.  Which is why I find this sort of request to be out of place.


----------



## old fart

I will say this...

I too served in the post Somalia Airborne Regiment....and echoing what has been said by many, the unit that was disbanded under the leadership of LCol Peter Kenward was not the unit of the Somalia debacle.

I continue to serve, now in my 33rd year....but I still have trouble reconciling that episode and the outcome; Canada and the CF lost a great deal the day Collenette ordered the disbandment of this proud Regiment, more than they will ever know...in particular the many good soldiers who just said bollocks to it and left the army.  Unfortunately I was the first paratrooper (still proudly wearing a maroon beret) that met Collenette in Bosnia early 1996, to say there was a pregnant pause when he put out his hand to shake mine was an understatement.  The look on his face is one I will never forget and I hope vice versa.

And that is why the results of the last federal election, in a cynical and self serving manner make me feel so much better. 

"And that's all I have to say about that"....maybe not...

“Airborne and proud of it  ”


----------



## Kat Stevens

old fart said:
			
		

> I will say this...
> 
> I too served in the post Somalia Airborne Regiment....and echoing what has been said by many, the unit that was disbanded under the leadership of LCol Peter Kenward was not the unit of the Somalia debacle.
> 
> I continue to serve, now in my 33rd year....but I still have trouble reconciling that episode and the outcome; Canada and the CF lost a great deal the day Collenette ordered the disbandment of this proud Regiment, more than they will ever know...in particular the many good soldiers who just said bollocks to it and left the army.  Unfortunately I was the first paratrooper (still proudly wearing a maroon beret) that met Collenette in Bosnia early 1996, to say there was a pregnant pause when he put out his hand to shake mine was an understatement.  The look on his face is one I will never forget and I hope vice versa.
> 
> And that is why the results of the last federal election, in a cynical and self serving manner make me feel so much better.
> 
> "And that's all I have to say about that"....maybe not...
> 
> “Airborne and proud of it  ”




Should have kneed him in the junk.  

PS Congrats on the Bronze Star, Kev...CHIMO


----------



## Tow Tripod

What is done is long done. Now it is nothing more than Canadian military history. I think the Canadian army has significantly changed for the better between 2000 and 2011. At the conclusion of the mission in Kandahar I just hope we as an institution don't revert to the 1991-1992 mind set. The early 90/s is my LOA on how not to treat sub-ordinates but yeah WTF does it matter? Things are good right now overall. That is all!

TOW TRIPOD


----------



## Good2Golf

Journeyman said:
			
		

> .....but you may note that the one CO who _tried_ to address the discipline issues was sacked.
> The Airborne's "problems" were exacerbated beyond the Regimental level.



...and the CDS of the day (well, quietly shuffled off to NATO)...


----------



## daftandbarmy

Hear, hear,

I also think Prince Andrew should also apologize for that awful beret. There is no statute of limitations on looking like a gomer (your Royal Highness!)

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/05/29/feds-should-apologize-to-disbanded-airborne-regiment


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Personally, I see no sense to it, It would just be a touchy feely thing. The present PM and the CPC would be giving an apology for past sins of another party and generation. Kinda like our internment of the Japanese, or Jesuit schools or any one of a hundred disconnected thing we apologize for, but none of us had anything to do with. I doubt that it would really appease anyone from the Regiment and would just ring hollow despite the best efforts of the Government.

The real villians are the defunct liebral party and that band of gangsters, long since retired, that should be paraded before the MSM and held to account. They are the petty charlatans that tried to save face on the backs of the Regiment, not Harper.

However, the PM has never shied from doing the right thing even when the calamity was something he had nothing to do with. The PM has probably (just guessing) apologized to more groups that any other government we've ever had. So I would not be surprised if he did it.

Hopefully, while doing it, he places the blame, front and centre with the responsibility dodging libranos.

I have no dog in this fight but my brother (RIP) was CAR.

Just my uneducated :2c: worth.


----------



## Old Sweat

I was serving in J3 at the time and recall an emotional discussion with Peter Kenward as he was leaving to take command of the regiment. I told him if anyone could fix the regiment, it was him. Unfortunately we both also agreed it may have been too late.

A few years after the event I was told by what I consider a reliable source that the decision had been made to disband the regiment well in advance of the announcement, like several months at the least. Recall that this was in the early days of the decade of darkness, and that the army went down to six "full size" infantry battalions as well as one 10/90 battalion per regiment. (What happened to the airborne capability?) There just was not an easy way to fit an airborne battalion into this. A flow of cleverly crafted leaks and rumours along with a compliant media and a hardly neutral (my opinion) Somalia Inquiry created an atmosphere where the CF was hardly at the top of the public's Christmas Card list. The airborne would have been lucky to be disbanded as a financial measure, and that was not the way the Liberals worked. This gave the government the ammunition it needed to raze the DND budget.

Not everybody bought it. My wife and I stopped in Napanee for lunch en route to RV with some friends and go to Mexico. The next table was populated by four very senior senior citizens of the female persuasion. During their post lunch coffee the conversation went something like this: "Did you see those pictures of those Airborne guys in Somalia?" "Yes, Weren't they awful?" "Yes, but the Minister had no business disbanding the regiment. We know how the army works. They would have fixed it in a couple of days." All four purple heads nodded in agreement, but the MND was beyond the listening to the public stage.

Modified: To correct misspelling of Peter Kenward's name.


----------



## 57Chevy

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> OTTAWA - They were Canada's best of the best.



nuff said  :nod: 

Fair Winds and Soft Landings ;D

Airborne ! ! !


----------



## Loachman

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Hear, hear,
> 
> I also think Prince Andrew should also apologize for that awful beret. There is no statute of limitations on looking like a gomer (your Royal Highness!)
> 
> http://www.torontosun.com/2011/05/29/feds-should-apologize-to-disbanded-airborne-regiment



When I click on the link, I get a pop-up message that says "Do you want to open or save feds-should-apologize-to-disbanded-airborne-regiment (16.1 KB) from www.torontosun.com?" Clicking "Open" gives me a choice of programmes to open with, none of which seem to work. Sun pages used to open up like any other. Why is this one acting this way, and why can I not open it?


----------



## Good2Golf

Loachman said:
			
		

> When I click on the link, I get a pop-up message that says "Do you want to open or save feds-should-apologize-to-disbanded-airborne-regiment (16.1 KB) from www.torontosun.com?" Clicking "Open" gives me a choice of programmes to open with, none of which seem to work. Sun pages used to open up like any other. Why is this one acting this way, and why can I not open it?



Out of region, Loachman.

(Photo copyright TorontoSun.com)


----------



## Dennis Ruhl

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> A few years after the event I was told by what I consider a reliable source that the decision had been made to disband the regiment well in advance of the announcement, like several months at the least. Recall that this was in the early days of the decade of darkness, and that the army went down to six "full size" infantry battalions as well as one 10/90 battalion per regiment.



Yup!  When they were hacking at everything else the Airborne was just an easy target.  It was truly nothing personal, just handled stupidly.

20-30 years earlier there were a bunch of teary eyed Canadian Guards, Black Watch, QOR and Fort Garry Horse.  Nobody likes to see their regiment go.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Fortunately, it looks like the Federal Liberals are headed for the ash heap of history. Ain't Karma a beeeeeyatch boys and girls?

Now that the conservatives are a majority governemnt I don't think an apology is required: simply righting a great wrong by reinstating the 1st Bn CAR would do nicely.

Over to you Mr. Prime Minister.


----------



## Dennis Ruhl

As a 3 company understrength light infantry unit, simply restoring the regiment by amalgamating existing jump units might not be a bad idea.

Investing heavily in airborne assets?  Something happened since the last jump in anger in 1945.  They invented the helicopter.  Enough said.


----------



## ArmyRick

An apolgy would be good enough. Re-instating the CAR? Why? As someone else said, we have CSOR now and they fill alot of unique functions. It would be better to let it be.

The worst thing about that old liberal party (Ad scam, failing to abolish GST, no 'elicopters promise which was kept and the disbandment of the airborne) is that the head mafiasso, The Don Jean Chretein got away with everything he and his gang did.

How about a Chretein inquiry?


----------



## The Bread Guy

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Now that the conservatives are a majority governemnt I don't think an apology is required: simply righting a great wrong by reinstating the 1st Bn CAR would do nicely.


What would that do to staffing in the battalions now containing some maroon berets?  Don't know if that's a good plan.

An apology?  I voted no because it would be too little, too late to a certain extent.  Another option, though, might be a statement or something similar emphasizing the bit in yellow:


			
				Journeyman said:
			
		

> As a member of the Airborne Regiment through the disbandment, I recall *the leadership being quite adamant that the disbandment was not "in disgrace."*
> 
> Perhaps they were clutching at administrative/legalistic straws, but it was a significant point for the overwhelming majority of us who had never tortured anyone to death and felt we were all being punished for the acts of a few...._most_ of whom were already being punished.


----------



## Dennis Ruhl

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> What would that do to staffing in the battalions now containing some maroon berets?  Don't know if that's a good plan.



CSOR, JTF2, and a revived CAR would make a small brigade each with different functions that could build on each others strengths.  I like it.


----------



## dangerboy

Dennis Ruhl said:
			
		

> CSOR, JTF2, and a revived CAR would make a small brigade each with different functions that could build on each others strengths.  I like it.



Just minor issues like finding the pers to man a new regiment, equipment to outfit it, and location to house it.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Dennis Ruhl said:
			
		

> CSOR, JTF2, and a revived CAR would make a small brigade each with different functions that could build on each others strengths.  I like it.


Not to mention leg battalions even smaller than they are now.


----------



## the 48th regulator

But imagine,

Canada can be the Spec Ops Unit of the world...The true Team America Canada.


It would also get those slack PPCLI WO sitting in Wainwright, something to finally do to justify their pay.  Just saying.... 

dileas

tess


----------



## ArmyRick

Dennis Ruhl,

Seriously, JTF2 and CSOR do belong to an organization, CANSOFCOM. What capability would CAR bring to CANSOFCOM thats not already there?

As far as putting special forces units into a brigade, that kind of defeats there purpose. A Brigade can be a deployable formation and once you start talking large number of troops in an operation, I beleive you are outside the realm of what spec ops do.

Its not just the man power to consider. Its also budget, stores, vehicles, weapons, facilities, etc, etc.

Sorry, disagree. The CAR was a fine regiment (most of my Battle School instructors were ex-CAR) but its been laid down, unjustly, but its gone, let it be.


----------



## The Bread Guy

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> But imagine,
> 
> Canada can be the Spec Ops Unit of the world...The true Team America Canada.


A "nation of excellence"?


----------



## dapaterson

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> the 48th regulator said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But imagine,
> 
> Canada can be the Spec Ops Unit of the world...The true Team America Canada.
> 
> 
> 
> A "nation of excellence"?
Click to expand...


Canada.  Fuck yeah eh.


----------



## helpup

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Out of region, Loachman.
> 
> (Photo copyright TorontoSun.com)



That Cpl there is showing a fine example of how to wear the beret.  Dunn is the last name and hope he is doing well.

It has been interesting reading all the old posts from 2005, kudos for the resurrection.  

I would love an apology, I do not expect one nor require one.  History may or may not exonerate the CAR and those who served fully.  But reading some of the not deleted posts from back in 2005 on the 10 year anniversary there were many who did not understand and yet were fully polarized by their opinion.  Since that time we have moved on as a nation and a army and now live in a time of relative public pride in who we are and what we do.  As a service member ex CAR or not I will take that any day.  

I would love to see the colors fly again but know that they wont.  CSOR is carrying on some of the tradition if not with all the trappings that the CAR use to call our own.  As the army stands now we cannot afford another specialist group and man it with the quality it deserves as that quality is being employed else where.  

Anyhow my thoughts for what it is worth


----------



## quadrapiper

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> Seriously, JTF2 and CSOR do belong to an organization, CANSOFCOM. What capability would CAR bring to CANSOFCOM thats not already there?


A light-infantry unit with integral light artillery trained and equipped to drop, whether by helicopter or parachute, into hostile territory. In the context of CANSOFCOM, a security, screening, or follow-on support element. Might be "cheaper" than using other, current CANSOFCOM units, but allow better coordination of training than might occur if a line infantry unit was used for the same task. Also, potentially, a farm team for CSOR, JTF2, and so on.

Is something like this needed/useful/worth the money/bodies/political haggling? Damned if I know; probably not.


----------



## McG

quadrapiper said:
			
		

> Also, potentially, a farm team for CSOR, JTF2, and so on.


They don't need a "farm team."  The whole CF is the "farm team" and _they_ can pick the best from across that gene pool.



			
				quadrapiper said:
			
		

> Is something like this needed/useful/worth the money/bodies/political haggling? Damned if I know; probably not.


According to discussions, where the idea has been beaten to death, we don't need an Airborne Regiment in the current force structure: 
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/22233/post-3582.html#msg3582

[Edit for link]


----------



## OldSolduer

Not only that, but we, way back when, were doing stuff that CSOR does, as line infantry.

Everyone's an expert.


----------



## Brutus

As others have mentioned, the use of helicopters has replaced the airplane for many roles formerly in the domain of the CAR. I don't know if they need to resurrect the CAR, but assuming it was, my first thought was using it in the Long Range Patrol capacity with an Airborne capability ...similar to a US Ranger Regiment. I am unsure if CSOR has this capacity sufficiently covered off or not, but my impression is that it may be somewhat lacking in the CF.


editted for spelling


----------



## daftandbarmy

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Not only that, but we, way back when, were doing stuff that CSOR does, as line infantry.
> 
> Everyone's an expert.



Amen to that. Special is as special has budgets for!


----------



## Loachman

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Out of region, Loachman.



Newmarket Ontario is "out of region"?


----------



## 57Chevy

Video for all the bros' out there.
  
Airborne apology overdue ( 30 May )
http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/video/airborne-apology-overdue/968035307001


----------



## helpup

Hmm, first time watching Sun News.  I think I may have to look at it a bit more.  Big difference in tone from CBC and CTV.  ( no surprise there )   I still dont think it will happen.  Hats off to Kenword and others though for keeping the torch alive.  I wonder how long it is going to be borne by folks.  I agree with many on here about there is no room right now for the CAR.  It would take from a finite resource that is available now in the Inf Bn (and Cbt Arms/Spt trades Gnr's Spr's and such)....


----------



## ArmyRick

To be honest, I think it would be a 1000 times more meaningful if Mr Chretein and Collenette got up in public, admitted they were wrong about how they handled the Airborne and formerly apologize. It will never happen though.

Having current PM issue an apology is similar to an Insurance adjuster saying sorry your house got robbed but we are here for you now. It doesn't undo the political BS and underhanded crap done by the 90s liberals.


----------



## helpup

Chretien Say he is sorry........ Oh that is rich.  But as much as I don't like the man, I don't put the blame on him to a great extent.  He had a terrible sound bite when a reporter asked him about the possibility of the Airborne being disbanded and he replied along the lines of "I don't have a problem with Dat"  Collenete though made me sick of the word "systemic".  
With out being a expert on the whole subject of who really does what.  I think that between the two of them they asked for the best political solution and the PMO's advice along with that of NDHQ's had the more influential mouths going.  "Oh disband them, it will look like your decisive and get rid of a unit we haven't felt comfortable with for a while now."

My opinion anyhow as I have always seen Chretien as a fence sitter who was good at sticking wet finger in the air and seeing what way the winds were blowing.


----------



## daftandbarmy

A toast to liberation tonight: 23.16hrs, June 5th 

At 00:16 Double British Summer Time ( 23:16 BST ) on 6th June 1944, D Company 2nd Bn Ox and Bucks landed by glider at Benouville ( now Pegasus ) Bridge.

The battle for the liberation of Europe had begun, led by the AIRBORNE.

Tally Ho!


----------



## Journeyman

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> ...Ox and Bucks *landed by glider * at Benouville ( now Pegasus ) Bridge..


Given the glider linkage, _clearly_ the government should either disband...or apologize to.....the Air Cadets





....and then we can shut this thread down


----------



## Infanteer

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> The battle for the liberation of Europe had begun, led by the AIRBORNE.



I wonder what the Soviets were thinking of that as they tied down 80% of the Wehrmacht....


----------



## mariomike

Infanteer said:
			
		

> I wonder what the Soviets were thinking of that as they tied down 80% of the Wehrmacht....



Or, the Carlton and York Regiment and the West Nova Scotia Regiment:
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/land-terre/news-nouvelles/postcards-cartespostales/story-reportage-eng.asp?id=3510

And the Canadians already fighting in the air over France and Germany.


----------



## vonGarvin

Infanteer said:
			
		

> I wonder what the Soviets were thinking of that as they tied down 80% of the Wehrmacht....


Amen
While the operations in Italy, Normany, the North Atlantic and over the Ruhr were by no means insignificant, the operations by the Soviet Army that summer of 1944 were monumental.  Operation BAGRATION  resulted in the destruction of _*Army Group*_ Centre.  In just a few weeks of battle 





> Almost 300,000 Germans were killed or captured and a gaping hole had been torn in the German front, leaving the road to Berlin open.



As far as my research on the battle has shown, there were no major airborne operations involved in BAGRATION.


All this to say: I'm not sure if an apology is warranted


----------



## Infanteer

A good read on myths of the Eastern Front by the master himself, Glantz:

http://www.strom.clemson.edu/publications/sg-war41-45.pdf


----------



## a_majoor

A bit OT here.

The Soviets really had been the leaders in Airborne battle techniques, with Marshal M.N. Tukhachevski being an early proponent as far back as the mid 1920's. Given the technology of the day, much of what airborne proponents wanted was impossible or impractical (armoured support for airborne troops took the form of putting biplane wings on light tanks and towing them behind aircraft, for example), but some advances like automatic grenade launchers and recoiless rifles and cannon were developed, and the VDV rapidly expanded to the point:



> To give some idea of the scale of the VDV, on maneuvers in 1934 900 men were dropped simultaneously by parachute. At the famous Kiev manoeuvres in 1935 no less than 1188 airborne troops were dropped at once, followed by a normal landing of 1765 men with light tanks, armoured cars and artillery. In Belorussia in 1936 there was an air drop of 1800 troops and a landing of 5700 men with heavy weapons. In the Moscow military district in the same year the whole of the 84th rifle division was transferred from one place to another by air. Large-scale and well armed airborne attacks were always accompanied by the dropping in neighbouring districts of commando units which operated both in the interests of the security of the major force and in the interests of Razvedupr. (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/army-vdv.htm)



Sadly, the great purges prior to the war eliminated most of the proponents of airborne forces, but the idea remained and the USSR did, in fact, use their airborne forces in at least two operations:



> Only a few small airborne drops were carried out in the first desperate days of Operation Barbarossa, in the vicinity of Kiev, Odessa, and the Kerch peninsula.[4] The two significant airborne operations of the war were the Vyazma operation of February–March 1942, involving 4th Airborne Corps, and the Dnepr/Kiev operation of September 1943, involving a temporary corps formation consisting of 1st, 3rd, and 5th Airborne Brigades.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Airborne_Troops#Interwar_and_World_War_II)



Despite the vast size of the VDV in the post war world (6 Guard divisions) and the plethora of specialized equipment that the VDV had which has no real counterpart in any other army (BMD IFVs, self propelled guns and even light tanks capable of being parachuted into battle) even the Soviets never really utilized the capabilities of the VDV in the manner that Tukhachevski  envisioned, going to airmobile assault regiments carried by helicopter instead.

So the vast investment of time and resources that the former USSR could lavish on entire airborne divisions (including apparently enough lift capacity to actually lift an entire division at once, as demonstrated in EX DNIEPER 67 [see the movie "I Server the Soviet Union"]) never really paid off in any practical military sense. Proponents of bringing back the CAR might consider that when formulating their arguments.


----------



## Jungle

Thucydides said:
			
		

> So the vast investment of time and resources that the former USSR could lavish on entire airborne divisions (including apparently enough lift capacity to actually lift an entire division at once, as demonstrated in EX DNIEPER 67 [see the movie "I Server the Soviet Union"]) never really paid off in any practical military sense. Proponents of bringing back the CAR might consider that when formulating their arguments.



I spend a lot of money every year to insure my house against fire, yet it has never burned... I intend to continue to prevent fires, but will still pay the insurance.

Helicopters have limited range, and considering the size of Canada, I think an Airborne Battle Group is not a ridiculous idea. Did you know that an Airborne operation was considered to insert Para Coy last year in Haiti, as the PaP airport was overloaded ?

Resurrect the CAR ? Maybe not... Resurrect the capability ? I think it should be considered. CSOR does not fill the gap of insertion of a large number of troops with supporting arms.


----------



## wildman0101

YES..  I wore the SSF Flash... Having said that 
I was Armd 8-Ch when they relocated CAR to
Petawawa.  When they Formed the SSF (Pet)
I was so proud to wear the SSF Flash for only 
two reason's... 
1.  8-ch(P.L.) was one of the Regiment's that formed
the 1st Special Service Force: AKA our world renowned
"Devil's Brigade" 
2. I was so proud to be a part of our (SSF)  History
associated with our  predecessor
The Devil's Brigade.
When those Regiment's reform they reform a brother
hood that can never be disbanded irregardless of 
Politic's,,,Media,,,What-so-ever. Screw them.
This Brotherhood still stand's...
OSON
Scoty B


Special Service Force
From www.canadiansoldiers.com
The Special Service Force (SSF) was created on 1 Apr 1977
after the disbandment of 2 Combat Group. The SSF was a 
brigade-sized organization based at CFB Petawawa,
 made up of:

The Canadian Airborne Regiment 
1st Battalion, The Royal Canadian Regiment 
8th Canadian Hussars (P.L.)xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
2nd Regiment Royal Canadian Horse Artillery 

The brigade was a light, air-transportable force with an 
airborne capability that could be inserted quickly into 
any national or international theatre of operations. The 
role of the Special Service Force (SSF) had not changed
significantly by 1943, when, according to DND, its role 
was "to provide general purpose, combat-ready land 
forces in accordance with assigned tasks." 

Uniform Insignia
The brigade's insignia featured a winged dagger, similar 
to that worn by the British Special Air Service.

This Brigade was reformed in 1977 after the original 
......First Special force of the 2nd World War known as...... 
                           
                    "The Devils Brigade".


Other unit's who proudly served

1st Battalion, The Royal Canadian Regiment 
2 Field Ambulance 
Royal Canadian Dragoons 
2 Military Police Platoon 
2 Combat Engineer Regiment 
2nd Royal Canadian Horse Artillery 
2 Service Battalion 
2 Intelligence Platoon 
427 Tactical Helicopter Squadron 
22nd Air Defence Regiment 
SSF HQ & Signals Squadron


----------



## a_majoor

While I agree in principle that an airborne battle group may have utility in our geographic situation both to transport significant quantities of troops internally and project force externally, the cost/benefit ratio seems to be pretty lopsided on the "cost" end, and given our limited resource base we would have to consider very carefully what would have to be given up to achieve that capability.

I also note that even in our own history, the CAR was very rarely deployed, even though the ability to insert troops quickly into theaters of operation *might* have been advantageous at the time. (This argument is somewhat moot, since the government of the day decides). If occasions like Haiti arise more often in the future, I would hope that consideration _is_ given to an airborne battle group as a means of dealing with the problem, but once again the cost/benefit ratio would be the key consideration.


----------



## Journeyman

wildman0101 said:
			
		

> 1.  8-ch(P.L.) was one of the Regiment's that formed the 1st Special Service Force: AKA our world renowned "Devil's Brigade"


Do you have a source for this.......statement?


----------



## wildman0101

Jouryman
From www.canadiansoldiers.com
Properly designated as the 1st Special Service Force, the Devil's Brigade was a joint World War II American-Canadian commando unit trained at Fort Harrison near Helena, Montana in the United States. Many modern American and Canadian Special Forces units trace their heritage to this unit. 
 [edit]
General information
The volunteers for the 1600 man force consisted primarily of enlisted men recruited by advertising at Army posts, stating that preference was to be given to men previously employed as lumberjacks, forest rangers, hunters, game wardens, and the like. The 1st Special Service Force was officially activated on July 20, 1942 under the command of Lt. Colonel Robert T. Frederick. Force members received rigorous and intensive training in stealth tactics, hand-to-hand combat, the use of explosives for demolition, amphibious warfare, rock climbing and mountain fighting, and as ski troops. Their formation patch was a red arrowhead with the words CANADA and USA. They even had a specially designed fighting knife made for them called the V-42.

[edit]
History
The 1st Special Service Force was activated on July 9, 1942 as a joint Candian-U.S. force of three small regiments and a service battalion. Following its initial training period in Montana, the 1st SSF relocated to Camp Bradford, Vermont, on April 15, 1943, and to Fort Ethan Allen, Vermont, on May 23, 1943. On July 4, 1943, it arrived at the San Francisco Port of Embarkation, and on July 10 sailed for the Aleutian Islands. On August 15, 1943, 1st SSF was part of the invasion force of the island of Kiska, but after the island was found evacuated, it re-embarked and returned to Fort Ethan Allen, arriving September 9.

A scheduled operation code named "Project Plough," a mission to parachute into German-held Norway to knock out strategic targets such as hydroelectric power plants, had to be abandoned but in October of 1943 the commander of the U.S. Fifth Army, Lt. Gen. Mark W. Clark, brought the 1st Special Service Force to Italy where its members demonstrated the value of their unique skills and training. The 1st SSF arrived at Naples on November 19, 1943 and immediately went into the line with the U.S. 36th Infantry Division.

At Monte la Defensa, located in the ancient town of Rocca d'Evandro (about 10 miles south of Cassino), between December 3 and December 6, 1943, they immediately earned a reputation for being able to take impenetrable objectives when no one else could. Here, in the dead of winter, the Special Force wiped out a strategic enemy defensive position sitting high atop a mountain surrounded by steep cliffs. Previously, American and British forces had suffered many casualties in futile attempts to take the important target. This incident was the basis for the 1968 motion picture titled "The Devil's Brigade."

The 1st SSF immediately continued its attack, assaulting Monte la Remetanea from December 6 to December 9. It captured Monte Sammucro on December 25, and assaulted Monte Vischiataro on January 8, 1944. During the mountain campaign the 1st SSF suffered 77% casualties.

During Operation Shingle at Anzio, Italy, 1944, the Special Force were brought ashore on February 1st, after the decimation of the U.S. Rangers at Caserta, to hold and raid from the right-hand flank of the beachhead marked by the Mussolini Canal/Pontine Marshes, which they did quite effectively.

It was at Anzio that the Germans dubbed the 1st Special Service Force as the "Devil's Brigade." The diary of a dead German soldier contained a passage that said, "The black devils (Die schwarzen Teufel) are all around us every time we come into the line." The soldier was referring to them as "black" because the brigade's members smeared their faces with black boot polish for their covert operations in the dark of the night. During Anzio, the 1st SSF fought for 99 days without relief. It was also at Anzio that the 1st SSF used their trademark stickers; during night patrols soldiers would carry stickers depicting the unit patch and a slogan, written in German: "Das Dicke Ende kommt noch," said to translate to "The Worst is yet to Come", placing these stickers on German corpses and fortifications. Canadian and American members of the Special Force who lost their lives are buried near the beach in the Commonwealth Anzio War Cemetery and the American Cemetery in Nettuno, just east of Anzio.

When the 5th Army breakout offensive began on May 25, 1944, the 1st SSF was sent against Monte Arrestino, and attacked Rocca Massima on May 27. The 1st SSF was given the assignment of capturing seven bridges in the city to prevent their demolition by the withdrawing Wehrmacht. During the night of June 4th, members of the 1st SSF entered Rome. After they secured the bridges, they quickly moved north in pursuit of the retreating Germans.

On August 14, 1944, the 1st SSF landed at Îles d'Hyères during Operation Dragoon, the invasion of southern France. On August 22, it was attached to the 1st Airborne Task Force, a provisional Seventh Army airborne division, and later made part of the Task Force. On September 7, it moved with the 1st Airborne Task Force to defensive positions on the Franco-Italian border. During the war the 1800-man unit accounted for some 12,000 German casualties, captured some 7,000 prisoners, and sustained an attrition rate of over 600%.

The 1st SSF, a unique military unit that never failed to achieve its objective, was disbanded December 5th, 1944. The Canadians would return to other Canadian units (most of them became replacements for the 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion), some American members were sent to the Airborne Divisions as replacements, and others formed the 474th Infantry Regiment, which served with the Third Army and performed occupation duty in Norway. However, in 1952, Col. Aaron Bank created another elite unit using the training, the strategies, and the lessons learned from the Devil's Brigade's missions. This force evolved into specialized forces such as the Green Berets, Delta Force, and the Navy SEALs. In Canada, today's elite and highly secretive JTF2 military unit is also modeled on the Devil's Brigade. As in World War II, Canadian JTF2 members and American Delta Force members were united once again into a special assignment force for the 2001 invasion of Afghanistan.

In September of 1999, the main highway between the city of Lethbridge, Alberta Canada and Helena, Montana in the United States was renamed the "First Special Service Force Memorial Highway". This highway was chosen because it was the route taken in 1942 by the Canadian volunteers to join their American counterparts for training at Fort Harrison.

A large number of the Devil's Brigade members were honored for their acts of valor, including Tommy Prince, Canada's most decorated aboriginal soldier of WW II.
Combat service
[edit]
Aleutians Campaign, 1943
Kiska & Little Kiska - August 15-August 19, 1943 
Segula Island - August 17, 1943 
[edit]
Italian (Naples-Foggia, Anzio, Rome-Arno) Campaigns 1943-1944
Monte la Defensa, Rocca d'Evandro - December 3-December 6, 1943 
Monte la Remetanea, Rocca d'Evandro - December 6-December 9, 1943 
Monte Sammucro, S.Pietro-S.Vittore - December 25 (Christmas Day), 1943 
Radicosa, S.Vittore - January 4, 1944 
Monte Majo - January 6, 1944 
Monte Vischiataro - January 8, 1944 
Anzio - February 2-May 10, 1944 
Monte Arrestino - May 25, 1944 
Rocca Massima - May 27, 1944 
Colle Ferro - June 2, 1944 
Rome - June 4, 1944 
[edit]
Southern France, (Alpes-Maritimes) Campaign, 1944
Iles d'Hyères - August 14-August 17, 1944 
Grasse - August 27, 1944 
Villeneuve-Loubet - August 30, 1944 
Vence - September 1, 1944 
Drap - September 3, 1944 
L'Escarène - September 5, 1944 
La Turbie - September 6, 1944 
Menton - September 7, 1944 
Rhineland Campaign, 1944
Franco-Italian border - September 7 - November 30, 1944 
The Devil's Brigade (1968) - starring William Holden, Cliff Robertson, Vince Edwards 
Daring to Die: The Story of the Black Devils 
Joseph Springer, The Black Devil Brigade: The True Story of the First Special Service Force, (Pacifica Military History, 2001). 
Robert Todd Ross, The Supercommandos First Special Service Force, 1942-1942, An Illustrated History (Atglen, PA Schiffer Publishing Ltd. 
Robert H. Adleman, and Colonel George Walton, The Devil's Brigade (Philadelphia., PA: Chilton Books, 1966). 
Robert D., Burhans, The First Special Service Force: A Canadian/American Wartime Alliance

As far as the Armoured Element's are concerned your on your own mate.
It's a given. Historically documented.. Have fun. Cheer's 
Scoty B


----------



## wildman0101

www.canadiansoldiers.com
Journeyman
The above is for you:
Re: SSF Petawawa 
Scoty B


----------



## wildman0101

Old Fart:
GO AIRBORNE OSONS
Scoty B


----------



## Jungle

Thucydides said:
			
		

> So the vast investment of time and resources that the former USSR could lavish on entire airborne divisions (including apparently enough lift capacity to actually lift an entire division at once, as demonstrated in EX DNIEPER 67 [see the movie "I Server the Soviet Union"]) never really paid off in any practical military sense. Proponents of bringing back the CAR might consider that when formulating their arguments.



Here's some of the main Airborne operations that have been conducted since the mid-70s; I excluded most of the smal-scale SOF insertions:



> Date: 19 May 1978; 1540 hours ZULU time
> Unit: French 1st, 2nd, 3rd and Headquarters companies of the 2nd REP Foreign Legion Paratroopers
> Operation: Leopard
> Troopers: 405 paras
> Country: Zaire, Africa
> Drop zone: North Kolwezi grassy flying strip, Drop Zone "A" Aircraft: 1 x C-160 Transaal, 4 x C-130E Hercules
> Equipment/supplies air-delivered: Ammunition, food, water, medical supplies (door bundles)
> Type Air delivery: Daylight, mass tactical airdrop
> 
> Date: 20 May 1978; 0600 hours ZULU time
> Unit: 4th company, recon section of French 2nd REP Foreign Legion Paratroopers
> Operation: Leopard
> Troopers: 200 paras
> Country: Zaire, Africa
> Drop zone: Grassy area east of Kolwezi town, Drop Zone "B", recon section on Drop Zone "A"
> Aircraft: 1 x C-160 Transaal, 4 x C-130E Hercules
> Equipment/supplies air-delivered: Ammunition, food, water, medical supplies (door bundles)
> Type Air delivery: Daylight, mass tactical airdrop
> 
> Date: 25 October 1983
> Unit: 75th Ranger Regiment 1st, 2nd BN & Two 82nd Airborne Division Paratroopers: Sgt. Spain and SPC Richardson, 618th Engineer Co., 307th Engineer Btn., USAF Combat Controllers (CCT), Air Force Special Operations Command (AFSOC), 12 troopers (Set up radios to guide aircraft) Operation: Urgent Fury
> Troopers: 500
> Country: Grenada
> Drop/Assault zone: Point Salines airfield
> Aircraft: MC-130 Combat Talons, C-130 Hercules
> Type Air delivery: Day Mass low-level tactical personnel static-line jump
> 
> Date: 20 December 1989
> Unit: (0124) Rangers; (0145) 82nd Airborne Division, 1st Brigade Task Force: 1/504th PIR, 1/505th PIR; 2nd Bn., 504th PIR; 4th Bn., 325th Abn. Inf. Reg., Co. C; A Co., 3/505 PIR; 3rd Bn., 73rd Abn. Armor Reg.; 82nd Abn. MP Co., 3 platoons (0411). All joined to form: Task Force Pacific.
> Operation: Just Cause
> Troopers: 2,176
> Country: Panama
> Drop/Assault zone: Torrijos-Tocumen Airport
> Aircraft: MC-130E Combat Talons, C-130H Hercules turbofan, C-141B Starlifter turbojet, C-5B Galaxy turbofan aircraft
> Equipment/supplies air-delivered: 12 x M551 Sheridan light tanks, Ranger M151 Gun jeeps, 78 x HMMWVs, 4 x M102 105mm towed howitzers, ammo, food (MREs), water (CDS)
> Type Air delivery: Night Mass low-level tactical personnel static-line jump, platform Heavy drop LVAD, CDS LVAD
> 
> Date: 20 December 1989
> UNIT: (0100) Rangers, 75th Inf. Reg., Task Force Red, 1,300 troops; 82nd Abn. Div. Ready Brigade (DRB), 2,700 troops.
> Operation: Just Cause
> Troopers: 4,000
> Country: Panama
> Drop zone/Assault zone: Rio Hato east to Fort Cimarron
> Aircraft: MC-130E Combat Talons, C-130E Hercules turboprop, C-141B Starlifter turbojet, C-5B Galaxy turbofan aircraft
> Equipment/supplies air-delivered: Ranger M151 Gun jeeps, HMMWVs, Ammo, Food (MREs), water (CDS)
> Type Air delivery: Night Mass low-level tactical personnel static-line jump, platform Heavy drop LVAD, CDS LVAD
> 
> Date: 19 October 2001
> Unit: SFOD-Delta, 75th Ranger Regiment
> Operation: "Rhino" as leading element of Enduring Freedom
> Troopers: 200
> Country: Southern Afghanistan
> Dropzone: Khandahar
> Aircraft: 4 x MC-130E Combat Talon Is
> Equipment supplies: M3 84mm Carl Gustav recoilless rifles, M4 5.56mm carbines, some with M203 40mm grenade launchers, M249 Light 5.56mm and M240B Medium Machine Guns 7.62mm, all with night vision devices
> Type Air delivery: night, combat mass-tactical Airborne Assault with static-line parachutes
> 
> Date: June 9, 1997
> Unit: French Airborne and Foreign Legion Paratroopers
> Operation: ?
> Troopers: 1,200
> Country: Republic of Congo, Africa
> Drop zone: Brazzaville Airport Aircraft: C-160 Transaals, C-130 Hercules
> Equipment/supplies air-delivered: Ammunition, Food (MREs), water, medical supplies (door bundles)
> Type Air delivery: Daylight, mass tactical, static-line jump, LVAD, STOL airland AMX-10RC light wheeled armored vehicles
> 
> Date: April 18, 2000
> Unit: Russian Paratroopers
> Operation: ?
> Troopers: 3,000
> Country: Chechnya
> Drop zones: South of Chechnyas Shatoi province
> Aircraft: IL-76 Candid
> 
> Date: February, 2003 (no exact date nailed down)
> Unit: "B" Company, 3/504 Parachute Infantry Regiment, 82nd Airborne Division
> Troopers: 70
> Dropzone: Remote section of Western Afghanistan
> Aircraft: A single C-130H Hercules
> Equipment Supplies: Standard Issue (No specialty items were mentioned) M16A2's, M203 Mounted Grenade Launchers, M249 LMG "SAWs", NVGs for all the men
> Type of Delivery: Combat Mass-Tac, T-10D Static Lines, Dusk (not night, you can clearly see in the photo)
> 
> Date: 27 March 2003
> Unit: 173rd Airborne Brigade
> Operation: Iraqi Freedom
> Troopers: 1,100 Jumpers. 9 Paras from the 250th Forward Surgical Team (FST),
> 
> Date: March 27, 2003
> Unit: "A" Company, 3rd Battalion, 75th Rangers, Combat Engineers
> Operation: ?
> Troopers: 306
> Country: Western Iraq
> Drop zone: H-1 airfield
> Aircraft: 3 x USAF C-17s
> Type Air delivery: Night personnel, static-line jump
> 
> Date: Before April 1, 2003
> Unit: USAF 820th Security Forces Group
> Operation: Iraqi Freedom
> Troopers: ?
> Country: Iraq
> Drop zones: Tallil Air Base, objective "Rams"
> Aircraft: HC-130 Hercules
> Equipment/supplies air-delivered: ?
> Type Air delivery: Daylight Static-line parachute mass tactical jump
> 
> Date: Late 2003
> Unit: Indonesian Paratroopers
> Operation: ?
> Troopers: 600
> Country: Aceh
> Drop zones: ?
> Aircraft: C-130 Hercules
> 
> Date:August 11, 2008
> Unit: 4th VDV Russian Paratroopers
> Operation: ?
> Troopers: 1,000
> Country: Break-away Abkhazia Republic of Georgia
> Drop/Landing zones: South Abkhazia
> Aircraft: IL-76 Candid jet transports
> Equipment/supplies air-delivered: 150 x BMD-type light tracked armored fighting vehicles, ammunition, food, water, medical supplies
> Type Air delivery: Round parachute airdrop followed by STOL airland



Note that these include a few fairly recent, rather large VDV operations. There is still a place for Airborne units, what was lacking in Canada is the political will to use them. Like home insurance, who can safely say we wil never need them; Airborne and Amphibious Forces, like SOF, cannot be created after an emergency occurs, and there is a difference between 3 Para Coys and an Airborne BG.

But that's just my opinion; I don't make make the decisions, and I don't see the large, strategic picture...


----------



## Journeyman

wildman0101 said:
			
		

> Do you have a source for this.......statement?
> 
> 
> 
> As far as the Armoured Element's are concerned your on your own mate.
> It's a given. Historically documented.. Have fun. Cheer's
> Scoty B
Click to expand...

So basically, those two rambling cut & paste jobs confirm that 8CH were NEVER part of the First Special Service Force.


----------



## old fart

Journeyman said:
			
		

> As far as the Armoured Element's are concerned your on your own mate.
> It's a given. Historically documented.. Have fun. Cheer's
> Scoty B
> So basically, those two rambling cut & paste jobs confirm that 8CH were NEVER part of the First Special Service Force.



My take also.........first time I have ever heard of it....


----------



## McG

Jungle said:
			
		

> Helicopters have limited range, and considering the size of Canada, I think an Airborne Battle Group is not a ridiculous idea.


Alternately, this may be a sign that Canadian geography warrants stronger consideration of V-22 type airframes.



			
				Jungle said:
			
		

> Did you know that an Airborne operation was considered to insert Para Coy last year in Haiti, as the PaP airport was overloaded?


In the case of ideas, as opposed to Oscars and Grammys, it is not an honour just to be considered.  It is not uncommon for bad ideas to make it all the way into war gamming before being recognized as what they are.  Where strategic lines of communication cannot accommodate the insertion and sustainment of a humanitarian assistance force, I would question the wisdom of parachuting in a team with limited specialist support and no major equipment so that they too might become part of the mouths-to-feed problem.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Are the Ospreys jump rated?


----------



## helpup

I didn't ask the Crew Chief when we were in them but being inside them they have a ramp and can vary their speed.  Put a anchor line cable in there with a retrieval system you should be able to.  But for the size of the airframe, mass drop I would go with something bigger.  

I do like the suggestion about Canada needing it though. Why jump troops out when you can land them in most places.  It would be a nice fit for a MAJAG.  Mind you refueling and speed is better then a chopper their max endurance is still going to be less then fixed winged.  As far as I know they are not refuelable in the air.   I was shown they were refuelable in air so as long as you have the gas plane in the right area your good to go.   ;D

(note, we got back recently working in Yuma with the Marines, the Coy got a fair amount of experience with the Sea Knight, Stallion and Osprey.  all were impressed with what the Osprey could do. Most didn't like the amount of hydraulic fluid or outright fuel that leaked out of most of them and the old Sea Knight was just plain fun and clean to ride in.)


----------



## aesop081

helpup said:
			
		

> As far as I know they are not refuelable in the air.



They certainly can :


----------



## aesop081

As far as parachuting goes......


----------



## helpup

LMAO I knew I should of took some time to google it.  Just going on the ones we worked with and no I didnt specifically ask if they were.  I will edit the last post Aviator

We used them but  at times it was more like the Aircrews used us as ballast. It was a Ex for them after all our Msn's on the ground were a after thought.  Still we are trying to do more trg with them in the future and they like that we are available for that type of trg.

and I did say I didnt see why not for the para ability.  As to it's usefullness however I would stick with a larger air frame


----------



## aesop081

helpup said:
			
		

> LMAO I knew I should of took some time to google it.



LOL, it's ok, aviation is kinda my thing ya know  ;D



> and I did say I didnt see why not for the para ability.



It was in response to someone asking if the Osprey could do it.


----------



## Journeyman

helpup said:
			
		

> It would be a nice fit for a MAJAG.


OK, given your track record on air-to-air refueling and parachuting, I'm hesitant to ask......what's a MAJAG?


----------



## dapaterson

Journeyman said:
			
		

> OK, given your track record on air-to-air refueling and parachuting, I'm hesitant to ask......what's a MAJAG?



Perhaps a MAJAID?

MajaG is this flickr user: http://www.flickr.com/photos/19157756@N02/


----------



## a_majoor

We could always dust off [url-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadair_CL-84]this[/url]:


----------



## wildman0101

Taken from C.F.B. Petawawa Website: History
April 1, 1977, 2 Combat Group was disbanded and **combined** 
with the Canadian Airborne Regiment to form the Special Service Force.

 8-ch(P.L.) was one of the Regiment's that formed the 1st Special Service Force: AKA our world renowned "Devil's Brigade" 


Sorry should have read:

8-ch(P.L.) was one of the Regiment's that formed the Special Service Force in 1977 along with other Regt's ect in my initial post.

Cheer's,
Scoty B (owe ya a beer-Journeyman)
I do believe the 8-CH was engaged with the 1st Special Service Force in some operation's 
during WW2. Will look that up if your interested.


----------



## Journeyman

wildman0101 said:
			
		

> Cheer's,
> Scoty B (owe ya a beer-Journeyman)


No worries. I made a mistake....once.....but her divorce lawyer sorted that one out for us.


----------



## Teflon

From todays Edmonton Sun:

http://www.edmontonsun.com/2011/06/13/airborne-regiment-vets-want-apology

Airborne Regiment launches petition

OTTAWA, ON - Former members of the Canadian Airborne want their regiment back and are launching a petition to complete their mission.

"What this regiment has accomplished was never brought to light; however, due to the Liberal decimation of the forces and discipline in the army - the actions of two soldiers disgraced the regiment, the men and its colours," said Gord Hockridge, a retired Airborne engineer who launched the petition.

MP Cheryl Gallant, who represents CFB Petawawa, sent a draft of the petition to the clerk of the House of Commons, to ensure the document is in the proper format.

The petition calls for an apology, reinstatement of the battle honours "colours" and eventual reinstatement of the Airborne Regiment.

The elite regiment was disbanded in 1995 after teenager Shidane Arone was beaten to death in 1993 while in Canadian custody during the United Nations mission to Somalia.

While the killing and subsequent public inquiry dominated the headlines, a former medic who was there said Canadian soldiers helped reverse the country's famine.

"We were in a country at war, we were not in a peacekeeping mission. It was like living in an ashtray," said retired sergeant Greg Janes.

Janes, past president of the Airborne Regiment Association of Canada, worked alongside the U.S. Green Berets and Airborne Rangers, groups whose experiences in Somalia were later depicted in the film, Black Hawk Down.

"An apology is warranted and necessary for the 1,400 people who were there and did everything right," Janes said. "Let the guilty be punished."

During the mission, Lt.-Gen. Robert B. Johnston, the U.S. commander in charge of the operation, wrote a strong letter to the chief of defence staff, praising the Canadian Airborne.

"It should be no surprise that the Canadian Airborne Regiment worked most effectively with relief workers and, in fact, delivered several thousand metric tons of relief supplies," Johnston wrote in May 1, 1993.

"The Canadian forces took the initiative to provide security for a number of large convoys ... there was no mission the Canadians were not willing to handle.

"The devastating effect of the famine was quickly reversed."

Prime Minister Stephen Harper's office has not yet responded to the request for an apology.


----------



## PanaEng

MCG said:
			
		

> Alternately, this may be a sign that Canadian geography warrants stronger consideration of V-22 type airframes.
> In the case of ideas, as opposed to Oscars and Grammys, it is not an honour just to be considered.  It is not uncommon for bad ideas to make it all the way into war gamming before being recognized as what they are.  Where strategic lines of communication cannot accommodate the insertion and sustainment of a humanitarian assistance force, I would question the wisdom of parachuting in a team with limited specialist support and no major equipment so that they too might become part of the mouths-to-feed problem.



What MCG is saying is that those 3 inf coys needed a troop of Engineers with hvy equipment in order to secure the Airport, and repair it.

Chimo!


----------

