# Marksman/Distinguished Marksman badge on DEUs wearing/regulations



## zeke (15 Feb 2005)

hey guys   this may be a stupid question   

the crossed rifles on the sleave of deus means markman right?   how do you get this badge? and why dont many people have it?


zeke


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## chrisf (15 Feb 2005)

Crossed rifles mean proficiency.

Crossed rifles with a crown mean marksman.

For profeciency, you've got to pass your personal weapons test.

For marksman, you've got to pass with a certain score.


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## zeke (15 Feb 2005)

dont we all pass our pwt's every year?  i know i do.  why dont i have the rifles?


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## MJP (15 Feb 2005)

Because you have to have the initiative to go get it from clothing stores yourself, it usually not something a unit will have kicking around to hand out.


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## chrisf (15 Feb 2005)

I thought it had to be presented?


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## dangerboy (15 Feb 2005)

It is one of the things that you have to do on your own, along with your trade badges. For my section it is an honour system I told them if they scored marksmen or not and trust them to have the tailor sew the right one on.


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## zeke (15 Feb 2005)

what unit are you?  and are theese scores from pwt3 or can you put them on if you got perfect on the pwt1s


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## chrisf (16 Feb 2005)

Makes sense, though mine was presented to me. Still have yet to get the thing sewn on though.


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## Fishbone Jones (16 Feb 2005)

This is straight out of the "Shoot to Live" pam, and should end all the conjecture.

Qualification Badges
19.	All soldiers within the Army of the rank of Sergeant and below who achieves the marksman's score with their personal weapon on the PWT 2 are considered a marksman and are authorized to wear the crossed rifles with crown badge.
20.	All soldiers within the Army of the rank of Sergeant and below who achieves a pass with their personal weapon on the PWT 2 but did not achieve the marksman score are considered a first class shot and are authorized to wear the crossed rifles badge.

PWT 2

Notes.
1. Total rdsâ â€45.
2. Scoring:   	
a. HPSâ â€55.	
b. Marksmanâ â€46.
c. Passâ â€33.

PWT 2 - Night Supplement

Notes.
1.   Total rdsâ â€30.
2.   This supplement constitutes part of PWT 2 only.
3.   Scoring:   	
a.   HPSâ â€20(one point per hit).
b.   Passâ â€10 points (50%).
3.   A marksman from the daylight tests must achieve a pass on the night supplement in order to retain the marksmanship qualification


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## JimmyPeeOn (22 Feb 2005)

Does this also count with the new PWT 1/2 compilation?


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## McAllister (27 Feb 2005)

Anyone know where i can find the full criteria for weapons qualification and scoring? i.e. ranges, target size, time, etc...


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## dangerboy (27 Feb 2005)

It is all in the Shoot to Live Pam.


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## goshofmosh (19 Apr 2005)

ours were given from our scores from all three and mine was presented to me at the christmas dinner from the CO


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## Fusaki (20 Apr 2005)

> 19.   All soldiers within the Army of the rank of Sergeant and below who achieves the marksman's score with their personal weapon on the _*PWT 2*_ are considered a marksman and are authorized to wear the crossed rifles with crown badge.



Thats sort of interesting....

The Marksman Badge used to require a marksman score on the PWT3, right? Shooting marksman on the PWT2 isn't that hard at all, considering that there is no rundown.


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## KevinB (20 Apr 2005)

A. CROSSED RIFLES WITHOUT CROWN: AWARDED TO SGTS AND BELOW WHOSE
PERSONAL WEAPON IS THE C7 OR C9, AND WHO ACHIEVE 85 PERCENT OR
MORE OF THE HIGHEST POSSIBLE SCORE (HPS) ON STAGE 3, PERSONAL
WEAPON TEST LEVEL 2 (PWT 2), AND ACHIEVE A PASS ON THE PWT NIGHT
SUPP

B. CROSSED RIFLES WITH CROWN:
(1) AWARDED TO SGTS AND BELOW WHOSE PERSONAL WEAPON IS THE C7 OR
C9,AND WHO ACHIEVE 85 PERCENT OR MORE OF THE HPS ON STAGE 3, PWT
3, AND ACHIEVE A PASS ON THE PWT NIGHT SUPP, OR
(2) AWARDED TO SGTS AND BELOW WHOSE PERSONAL WEAPON IS THE C8,
AND WHO ACHIEVE 85 PERCENT OR MORE OF THE HPS ON STAGE 3, PWT 2,AND ACHIEVE A PASS ON THE PWT NIGHT SUPP
3. MARKSMEN ARE ENTITLED TO WEAR THE BADGE PROVIDED THAT IT IS
AUTH WITHIN THEIR PARENT COMMAND. A MEMBER WHO HAS QUALIFIED AS
A MARKSMAN MAY ONLY WEAR THE BADGE WITHIN THAT CALENDAR YEAR.
IF, FOR WHATEVER REASON, THE SHOOTER IS NOT RETESTED THE
FOLLOWING YEAR THE ENTITLEMENT TO WEAR THE BADGE IS REVOKED
4. PERS CURRENTLY WEARING A MARKSMANSHIP BADGE MAY CONTINUE TO
DO SO UNTIL ONE YR HAS EXPIRED SINCE LAST TESTED, OR UNTIL
RETESTED IAW REF B AS DIRECTED BY THEIR CHAIN OF COMD, WHICHEVER
COMES FIRST
5. ANY QUERIES WITH RESPECT TO THIS POLICY SHOULD BE DIRECTED TO
DAT 3-3-2, [I deleted the telephone contact info]


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## Britney Spears (20 Apr 2005)

> (2) AWARDED TO SGTS AND BELOW WHOSE PERSONAL WEAPON IS THE C8,
> AND WHO ACHIEVE 85 PERCENT OR MORE OF THE HPS ON *STAGE 3, PWT 2,*AND ACHIEVE A PASS ON THE PWT NIGHT SUPP



And that's why we should all have C8s.

(I've never done PWT 2, in fact I don't actually know what the PWT2 is, so I'm going to assume it's not as demanding as the PWT 3)


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## TCBF (20 Apr 2005)

"And that's why we should all have C8s."

There may well be a reason to all have C8s, but that ain't it.

C7 PWT 3 went to 300 metres.  C8s PWT at max 200 metres.  If we replaced C7 with C8, we better make sure it can pass a PWT at 300 metres.  Having carried and shot C7, C7A1, and C8, my faith in the present C8 at 300 metres is not there.  I have no doubt others more knowedgeable and experienced in this than I - Kevin B comes to mind - know of C8s or variants thereof that can do this.

The most I have ever put out of an individual C8 before being given a new job with a new weapon (another gripe) is prob 500 rounds or so, and I have heard that most C8s don't start to get in their groove until they have had about a thousand rounds through the pipe.

Tom


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## Britney Spears (20 Apr 2005)

OK, check out my new sig line.


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## honestyrules (30 Aug 2007)

Hi! 
I tried to sort this out myself and find the correct info on this topic. I also talked to Cbt Arms types to find the answer.
If you're given the Marksman/Distinguished Marksman badge from your unit's RSM after a good shoot at the range and be told to put the badge on your DEU (Land forces DEU, right sleeve, close to wrist) ,can you wear it for an unlimited period of time OR do you have to acheive the same feat everytime you requalify on the C7 in order to be allowed to still wear it.

I would appreciate your insight on this...

Cheers!

Delavan


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## George Wallace (30 Aug 2007)

Perhaps a look into that book that is the bible (small b) on these things; CF Dress Regs.......Army marksmen of the rank of sergeant and below who have qualified as a first class shot or marksman, based on annual classification  results for the service rifle, are authorized to wear marksmanship badges, embroidered in CF and old gold on rifle green melton cloth, on service ................


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## honestyrules (30 Aug 2007)

Thanks George Wallace for answering the question.

So there is no "take it down" clause in the dress regs? I'm just wondering, cause although getting a badge like this is nice, there is a few snipers/ex-snipers around that score better/perfect at all times and don't even wear that kind of badge...

Delavan


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## George Wallace (31 Aug 2007)

delavan said:
			
		

> So there is no "take it down" clause in the dress regs? I'm just wondering, cause although getting a badge like this is nice, there is a few snipers/ex-snipers around that score better/perfect at all times and don't even wear that kind of badge...
> 
> Delavan



I think you missed the highlighed portion - the portion that it is an annual classification.  If you do not attain that same qualification in a years time, you take it down.  

I am sure that the snipers and ex-snipers really don't need a LCF badge to be what they are.  They know who they are without it.


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## honestyrules (31 Aug 2007)

Roger that!

thanks for clarifying this up!


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## Greymatters (31 Aug 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I am sure that the snipers and ex-snipers really don't need a LCF badge to be what they are.  They know who they are without it.



I dont even think we ever had one, did we?


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## Chilly (31 Aug 2007)

delavan,

You may want to double check on the placement of the crossed rifles, last time I checked it was placed on the left sleeve. The right was saved for your trade qualification level badge.

Chilly


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## honestyrules (31 Aug 2007)

> You may want to double check on the placement of the crossed rifles, last time I checked it was placed on the left sleeve. The right was saved for your trade qualification level badge.



Agreed. My bad...just like my little girl, I confused the left and right for a sec!


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## George Wallace (31 Aug 2007)

Chilly said:
			
		

> delavan,
> 
> You may want to double check on the placement of the crossed rifles, last time I checked it was placed on the left sleeve. The right was saved for your trade qualification level badge.
> 
> Chilly



I am sure the Tailor Shop will know the proper measurements and location, and will not make that mistake.



> Sewn centred on the lower left sleeve, 12 cm (4-3/4 inches) from the bottom of the sleeve to the lowest points of the badge.


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## Sig_Des (31 Aug 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I am sure the Tailor Shop will know the proper measurements and location, and will not make that mistake.



I wouldn't be so sure, George. I know a couple of guys who took their tunics to the tailor shop at NDHQ, and didn't notice until mess Dinners that the marksman badge was on their right sleeves. Pretty funny to see the RSM notice, too  ;D


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## Greymatters (31 Aug 2007)

Ha!  I remember one poor guy, the tailor had sewn the division patch onto the wrong shoulder.  CSM noticed immediately when we formed up for a parade. Fortunately for him, the CSM held the tailor to blame and not the soldier.


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## ModlrMike (31 Aug 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I am sure the Tailor Shop will know the proper measurements and location, and will not make that mistake.


I'm sure they will too. The dress manual is your friend. I've even taken the page to clothing stores and had the tailor argue with me as to the placement of the badge! That's why I check everything before I sign for it from the tailors. After all, who's responsible for the state of your uniform?


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## sigtech (31 Aug 2007)

delavan said:
			
		

> Agreed. My bad...just like my little girl, I confused the left and right for a sec!



Something that works for me so I don't confuse my left and right , hold you hands out in front of you thumbs out, the one that makes the L is your left 

 ;D

cheers


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## honestyrules (31 Aug 2007)

Holy!

That gave me a good laugh!!! Crazy you! >
Well I just checked my DEU and everything is at the right place!

Delavan


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## Kokanee (25 Sep 2007)

Looking for the regs that govern when you are entitled to wear this badge / as well as the paperwork req'd to put it up. Used to have this qual years ago before I switched trades, now with a new unit and despite my digging no one seems to know what the policy is.


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## armyvern (25 Sep 2007)

It must be certified on the range once per FY. It is an annual qualification.

At the end of the FY, if you haven't earned it (based on your certified range qual) ... it must come down. 

And, I've been home from work for hours now so I can't pull you up the refs you are seeking ...

Vern


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## Kokanee (25 Sep 2007)

Thanks Vern, I was aware of the yearly nature, qualification at the range etc, but that's excellent clarification on the "take down" policy
. I think I'll make a visit to the base library, maybe they have those docs.

Of course, I wear glasses now so this may all be mute if it's affected my shooting!

Appreciate the response.


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## 211RadOp (26 Sep 2007)

From A-AD-265-000/AG-001 Canadian Forces Dress Instructions Chapter 3 Section 6



> 3. Army marksmen of the rank of sergeant and
> below who have qualified as a first class shot or
> marksman, based on annual classification results for
> the service rifle, are authorized to wear the
> ...



Edited to correct Ref


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## armyvern (26 Sep 2007)

211RadOp said:
			
		

> From A-AD-265-000/AG-001 Canadian Forces Dress Instructions Chapter 3 Section 6
> 
> Edited to correct Ref



Well, that saves me a copy N paste!!  ;D


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## 211RadOp (26 Sep 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Well, that saves me a copy N paste!!  ;D



You're just slower than usual today Vern.


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## armyvern (26 Sep 2007)

211RadOp said:
			
		

> You're just slower than usual today Vern.


You've known me too long.


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## 211RadOp (26 Sep 2007)

Also, the PWTs have changed for the C7. To qual at PWT 1 you must obtain a score of 15 from an HPS of 25. To pass PWT 2 you must obtain a score of 47 from an HPS of 70. For First Class Shot, you must score 56. To qual for Marksman, you must also pass the night shoot with a score of 12 from an HPS of 20.

The actual range practices have changed dramatically also since last year. The AEL is down right now, so I can't get at the link for the actual shoots involved.


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## Kokanee (26 Sep 2007)

Thanks all for the info, that clears things up greatly.


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## eurowing (26 Sep 2007)

I achieved a score suitable for the badge while serving in Petawawa, but being a "blue type" had no need of the badge.  I should have kept one for fun and the eventual retirement shadow box.


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## medaid (26 Sep 2007)

Vern what's the regs on Navy marksmen? Do we get marksmenship badges?


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## George Wallace (26 Sep 2007)

MedTech said:
			
		

> Vern what's the regs on Navy marksmen? Do we get marksmenship badges?



It is worn just below the Ship's Bell.    ;D


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## armyvern (26 Sep 2007)

MedTech said:
			
		

> Vern what's the regs on Navy marksmen? Do we get marksmenship badges?



I'll put it to you this way.

I'm a purple trade. I'm Army; I work with Naval & Air DEU pers on the Army Base. We ALL have to qualify annually on the range. Only I put the badge on my DEU (well not anymore -- Sgts and below) though ...


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## medaid (26 Sep 2007)

Ah... Too bad. Oh well! I still got my crossed rifles and crown from my NCM days. I am so proud of en ;D thanks Vern!


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## 1feral1 (26 Sep 2007)

Mine are still on my DEU's, got that qual in 94, left in 95. Those DEU's are a bit moldy now, still hanging in the closet 13 yrs later, and would be a tight fit, ha! I used to keep my qual every year, so I was lucky.

In Australia its short sleeves, and although such awards exist, no where to put them, ha!

Cheers,

Wes


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## Rheostatic (8 Nov 2007)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> I wouldn't be so sure, George. I know a couple of guys who took their tunics to the tailor shop at NDHQ, and didn't notice until mess Dinners that the marksman badge was on their right sleeves. Pretty funny to see the RSM notice, too  ;D


I was one of those guys. When I took my jacket back to the tailor to get it redone, I took a look at the rack of finished jackets, and about half of the marksman badges were on the wrong arm.


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## DEVES (8 Nov 2007)

Does anyone know the exact placement for a marksman badge on the DEUs.?

Thank you.. Ive serached but cant find a good post.


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## RCR Grunt (8 Nov 2007)

From the dress regs Manual on the DIN.....

"Sewn centred on the lower left sleeve,
12 cm (4-3/4 in.) from the bottom of the
sleeve to the lowest points of the badge"

I assume you have no access to the DIN right now.  If you do, here is the link.

Dress regs


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## Sig_Des (8 Nov 2007)

Rheostatic said:
			
		

> I was one of those guys. When I took my jacket back to the tailor to get it redone, I took a look at the rack of finished jackets, and about half of the marksman badges were on the wrong arm.



Who's this? PM!


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## Sig_Des (8 Nov 2007)

Derek said:
			
		

> Thank you.. Ive serached but cant find a good post.



http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/65757.0.html

Must not have searched very well


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## LoKe (24 Apr 2010)

I recently did the PWT1 & PWT2.  I scored 25/25 on PWT1, and 68/70 on PWT2.

My WO said I was entitled to the crossed rifles patch.  But as far as I know, since I'm Navy (though in a purple trade), I'm not allowed to wear the patch.  Is that the case?  If so, it's pretty disappointing.

Also, what do you have to do to qualify for the crown?  PWT3?


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## ballz (24 Apr 2010)

Not sure if it's up to date anymore (its from 2005) but I can't see why not...

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/26829.0.html


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## LoKe (24 Apr 2010)

> Qualification Badges
> 19.  * All soldiers within the Army* of the rank of Sergeant and below who achieves the marksman's score with their personal weapon on the PWT 2 are considered a marksman and are authorized to wear the crossed rifles with crown badge.



Guess that answers my question.  Damn.


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## Shamrock (24 Apr 2010)

Typically, an Official document is a better reference than a 5 year old thread on the Internet. 



> Chapter 3, Section 6:
> 
> 3. Army marksmen of the rank of sergeant and below who have qualified as a first class shot or marksman, based on annual classification results for the service rifle, are authorized to wear the appropriate marksmanship badge, embroidered in CF gold on rifle green melton cloth, on service dress jackets (see Figure 3-6-3 and Annex F).


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## Fishbone Jones (24 Apr 2010)

We know the positioning isn't going to change anytime soon.

The last relevent question was 'What were the scores required for the badges'. If you want to be helpful, post that and the reference.

Milnet.ca Staff


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## SeanNewman (24 Apr 2010)

recceguy said:
			
		

> This is straight out of the "Shoot to Live" pam, and should end all the conjecture.



Other than "Shoot to Live" being replaced by the "CFOSP" part...

T2B,

Awesome clip!  That's what I thought to myself when I tore the 2 CMBG bear off my shoulder last Remembrance Day.


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## SeanNewman (24 Apr 2010)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> And that's why we should all have C8s.



I could not agree with that statement *less*.

This is on a different topic, but it has everything to do with muzzle velocity.  Don't go by the PAM numbers of 400/300/200m (and I am the OIC of Small Arms saying that) but go by the velocity at which the 5.56x45mm NATO round (in our case the C77) will reliably tumble and fragment.  Past that point, all you will get is a pierce through the body creating a relatively small permanent would channel.

I will not turn this thread into a terminal ballistic lecture, but ~200m from the muzzle is when a C7 drops below that point, where as a C8 is ~100m.  Yes, accuracy still trumps all and if you can guarantee a head shot on a moving target with your pulse at 180bpm I would say the permanent 5.56 wound channel is enough to kill/incapacitate an enemy, but for my money the extra oomph that a C7 gives me between 100-200m I would never use a C8 if given the chance.

While never the intended benefit of the NATO 5.56 when purchased, and granted it is quite erratic, the tumble + fragment is what will drop a target if you don't hit a vital area.

A picture speaks a thousand words.  From a distance of 100-200m, your C8 will only puncture, where as a C7 will do this:







If you want to go into this further, e-mail me at work or Google "Fackler velocity".  http://rkba.org/research/fackler/wrong.html


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## Fishbone Jones (24 Apr 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Other than "Shoot to Live" being replaced by the "CFOSP" part...



Well, you've been trying to set yourself up as the resident expert in small arms, so I'll ask you again. What is the rule, scores and reference for the crossed rifles and crossed rifles and crown? The sooner you post that, from the pam I'm sure you keep with you, the sooner I can close up this pathetic thread.

Milnet.ca Staff


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## SeanNewman (25 Apr 2010)

Recce,

It wasn't a matter of challenging your numbers; I was just informing you that the pub you listed has been replaced.  CFOSP is easy to find:
http://armyapp.forces.gc.ca/ael/pubs/CFOSP-B-GL-382-001-FP-001.pdf

And easier to access than me putting my copy (that I do have with me, thank you) on my scanner.

Page 5 states that it's a CoC responsibility to track the scores in a UER (doesn't mention badge tracking)

Page 19:

QUALIFICATION BADGES
25. All Land Force personnel of the rank of Sergeant and below who are assigned the C7, C7A1, C7A2, or the C8 as their personal  weapon, and who achieve the marksman’s score on the PWT 3, are authorized to wear the crossed rifles with crown badge in accordance with A-AD-265-000/AG-001 Canadian Forces Dress Instructions.

26. All Land Force personnel of the rank of Sergeant and below who are assigned the C7, C7A1, C7A2, or the C8 as their personal weapon, and who achieve 80% on the PWT 2, are considered a first class shot and are authorized to wear the crossed rifles badge in accordance with A-AD-265-000/AG-001 Canadian Forces Dress Instructions.

(Break)

It does not mention the one year part in those paras, but earlier in definitions it does state that to be current it has to be 12 months.

Page 90: Notes for scoring the PWT3

1. Ammunition. 69 rds.
2. Scoring. HPS—49 points. 1 point per hit in all Sers.
3. Standards.
a. Pass—29 points (60% of HPS).
*b. Marksman—39 points (80% of HPS).*
4. Ser 1 and Ser 2 may be skipped if a given firer is satisfied that their weapon is zeroed.

Techno,

Ack!


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## Fishbone Jones (25 Apr 2010)

Thank you.

We're done here.

Milnet.ca Staff


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