# NEIP...what is your opinion?



## Springroll (15 Feb 2007)

For the last year or so, all new sailors, when arriving in Esquimalt, have had the "honour" of participating in NEIP, the Naval Enviromental Indoctrination Program.
The program is meant to help new sailors get accustomed to the navy way of life and to teach us about the different programs available to us. It was also brought into effect when they noticed that alot of new young sailors were getting themselves into trouble after just arriving here.

Are any of you on it or already completed it?
If so, what did you think of it? 
Good points? 
Bad points?


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## S McPhee (15 Feb 2007)

I've completed my three months of NEIP after arriving here in Esquimalt and I personally wasn't a fan of it (in fact, I don't know anyone who has gone through the program and said that said they liked it).  The only benifit that I can see is that it does get personnel in the gym more and also provides a method to get more familiar with the base itself.  I didn't really understand why we would have to do it here in Esquimalt, but other new naval recruits going to Halifax did not..... just didn't seem fair to me.


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## navymich (15 Feb 2007)

How often do you attend it?  What all does it entail?  What exactly do you not like about it?

When the base was first talking about doing it, I personally thought it sounded like a good idea.  Think of all of the questions that are asked on the boards here about accommodations, vehicles, etc.  While many people joining now are of a more "mature" age, there are still many kids signing up.  First time away from home, lots of money in the pocket, and free and on their own.  Or you get the ones that just hide in their room because they aren't sure what is out there for them and they are hesitant to check things out on their own.

As for the comparison to Halifax, the program isn't a Navy-generated program, but rather one run by CFB Esquimalt.  If it works, it will most likely catch on to other bases.  In fact, I am sure that other bases already have some sort of "welcome" program in effect.


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## Springroll (16 Feb 2007)

airmich said:
			
		

> How often do you attend it?  What all does it entail?  What exactly do you not like about it?



The program is a monday to friday deal.

Monday morning room inspection, then muster at 1800, then cleaning stations, then lectures until 2000-2100hrs.
Tuesday morning muster then muster again at 1800, cleaning stations then PT at the gym from 1845-1945hrs
Wednesday morning muster then muster again at 1800, cleaning stations, then go on a tour(unless it was done during the day)
Thursday morning muster then muster again at 1800, cleaning stations then off to PT at the gym
Friday morning muster then your done with it for the day.

As stated mondays are lectures, tuesday and thursday are PT and wednesdays are tour days.
I have only been on it for 3 weeks, but what I don't like is the repetitiveness of the lectures(the same ones as at basic) and how much of our off time is taken up by it when we could be working on our homework, studying and working on our kit.

I will say that i did enjoy the tour of Rocky Point...that was a really interesting tour.


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## SoF (16 Feb 2007)

I'll be in Esquimalt next month but will be in pat so I'm not sure if I'll be doing NEIP.


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## navymich (16 Feb 2007)

Springroll said:
			
		

> but what I don't like is the repetitiveness of the lectures(the same ones as at basic)


Get used to that.  Every course you go on, every new unit you go to, you'll be hearing the same lectures about what is available to you as a member, what you should/shouldn't do etc.



			
				Springroll said:
			
		

> and how much of our off time is taken up by it when we could be working on our homework, studying and working on our kit.


Obviously your instructors are aware that you are on this program and the hours required for it, right?  Do they take that into account when assigning homework and scheduling exams at all?  Just looking at the timings that you have provided, yes, you might have some late nights if you had alot of homework and studying.  But except for Mondays, and possibly Wednesdays with the tours, you don't seem to be required too late for any of the days.  Plus you have the entire weekend, including Friday night, off.  I'm sure that you were up just as late, if not later, on BMQ preparing kit, cleaning etc, and there you weren't guaranteed your weekends off.


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## Stoker (16 Feb 2007)

Back in the 60's and early 70's there used to exist a handbook for navy NCM's that they were given when they go in. In it listed all all manner of things that you needed to know. The joining instructions they give you now really don't tell you anything. Perhaps instead of giving them another course, that to me seems like a Ordinary Seaman Under Training Program for the land, do up some sort of handbook and give it to them.


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## Sig_Des (16 Feb 2007)

airmich said:
			
		

> Get used to that.  Every course you go on, every new unit you go to, you'll be hearing the same lectures about what is available to you as a member, what you should/shouldn't do etc.



Don't forget filling out the same forms over and over and over and over......


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## RowdyBowdy (16 Feb 2007)

I heard that once you did the three months, you can move out of Nelles Block, any truth to this?


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## navymich (16 Feb 2007)

RowdyBowdy said:
			
		

> I heard that once you did the three months, you can move out of Nelles Block, any truth to this?



I hadn't heard that, but it would also depend on what course you were on.  For the majority of 3's courses at fleet school, you have to live in.  Or at least "maintain" a room.


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## orange.paint (16 Feb 2007)

Stoker said:
			
		

> Back in the 60's and early 70's there used to exist a handbook for navy NCM's that they were given when they go in. In it listed all all manner of things that you needed to know. The joining instructions they give you now really don't tell you anything. Perhaps instead of giving them another course, that to me seems like a Ordinary Seaman Under Training Program for the land, do up some sort of handbook and give it to them.



I have no idea of how the navy per's do it.But however nice a book would be,how many times do you think OS blugger would say "I didn't know" after being trusted to read the book.Or "I didn't understand the book".A course on the same subject matter allows MS to say "No excuse...you were taught it" 

Example:issued to the army.

THE ARMY FITNESS MANUAL.

Well read book there.... :

Book would be great for a reference to a new members questions though.Good idea for all trades to give out prior to getting to the place of enployment.


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## SoF (17 Feb 2007)

RowdyBowdy said:
			
		

> I heard that once you did the three months, you can move out of Nelles Block, any truth to this?



Unless you have a spouse/ gf or bf why would you want to move out?  First year salary isn't that hot; you'd be spending much of your earnings on rent. I know I plan to live in the shacks till I have enough money for a down payment on a house


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## RowdyBowdy (17 Feb 2007)

SoF said:
			
		

> Unless you have a spouse/ gf or bf why would you want to move out?  First year salary isn't that hot; you'd be spending much of your earnings on rent. I know I plan to live in the shacks till I have enough money for a down payment on a house



Because living in nelles block sucked and I couldnt wait to get out.  First year salary is actually pretty good if you are not spending $400/month on rations.


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## SoF (17 Feb 2007)

RowdyBowdy said:
			
		

> Because living in nelles block sucked and I couldnt wait to get out.  First year salary is actually pretty good if you are not spending $400/month on rations.



If I were living off base I'd definitely eat more than $400 a month. How much does is rent anyways out in Victoria?


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## RowdyBowdy (17 Feb 2007)

SoF said:
			
		

> If I were living off base I'd definitely eat more than $400 a month. How much does is rent anyways out in Victoria?



$400 a month is ALOT of food a month. You can find a place ot rent here for about $600 to 650/month for a 650 sq ft 1 bedroom apartment.


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## SoF (17 Feb 2007)

RowdyBowdy said:
			
		

> $400 a month is ALOT of food a month. You can find a place ot rent here for about $600 to 650/month for a 650 sq ft 1 bedroom apartment.



Have you been shoppng recently; you throw a couple items in the cart and bam you're already at a $100. 600 is not too bad but it would probably be cheaper to rent a 2 or 3 bedroom with the buddies


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## Springroll (17 Feb 2007)

I was spending $400-$450 a month on groceries for a family of 5...rations are darn expensive. Only bonus is that we don't have to cook it or clean it up afterwards.

Nelles isn't all that bad....things are only as bad or tough, as you make them.


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## NCRCrow (18 Feb 2007)

They wanted to put our guys in Nelles for OTT2 and I said not a chance.

 the C&PO's in Esquimalt is just as bad.

R & Q at Nelles should be free as it is a dump.


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## SoF (18 Feb 2007)

Well it can't be any worse than what I'm eating at home right now ;D Now Borden food...that was a real treat.


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## Saltycdog (20 Feb 2007)

One of the fine Naval traditions that is not covered under NEIP is that young sailors, soldiers and airmen have always gotten into trouble... It's just a fact of life. What's different about today is that the Navy is much more self-conscious about  it's image, and bad press. There was a time not that long ago, when the senior naval Leadership decried the fact that young warriors were becoming too tame...
having said all that, learning how to become a sailor, part of a Navy, and developing a sense of cultural identity is a good thing and something to be celebrated!


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## NCRCrow (20 Feb 2007)

at the NEIP Course party!!!! :blotto:


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## Saltycdog (20 Feb 2007)

Without the strippers and bikers....


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## painswessex (20 Feb 2007)

i remember when i did OSUT on the ship. Case of beer on the bar with your book on top of it and come back in an hour and the book was all signed.


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## Springroll (20 Feb 2007)

Saltycdog said:
			
		

> having said all that, learning how to become a sailor, part of a Navy, and developing a sense of cultural identity is a good thing and something to be celebrated!



NEIP does not teach you about being a sailor...thats what NETP is for. Also, so far it hasn't taught me anything about the culture other than cleaning stations.


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## NCRCrow (20 Feb 2007)

Cleaning Stations.

Welcome to the first 6 years of your career.


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## IN HOC SIGNO (20 Feb 2007)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> Don't forget filling out the same forms over and over and over and over......



Oh God I'm having a flashback!! Basic Training 7708.....

Ocdt IHS: Warrant, Why do we have to keep doing this over and over again?
WO Jessome (RCR since before Adam was in short pants) TO TEACH YOU TOLERANCE MR IHS!! GET DOWN AND GIVE ME 25!!!


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## navymich (20 Feb 2007)

Springroll said:
			
		

> NEIP does not teach you about being a sailor...thats what NETP is for. Also, so far it hasn't taught me anything about the culture other than cleaning stations.



You need to also look at the fact that you are most likely not part of the "target" group that the program was initially intended for.  You have had the experience (I am assuming) of managing a budget, buying necessary supplies for your well-being (clothes, toiletries etc), setting up a schedule/routine for yourself etc etc.  Think back to what it might have been like had you been 19 and on course.  Decent size paycheck every 2 weeks (which ends up just screaming for a new car or motorcycle, plus nights out boozing and buying decent meals), the influence of the not-so-savoury crowd, which could lead to alcohol, drugs etc.  Even the basics of being away from mommy for the first time and not knowing how to do your laundry or which toothpaste to buy. 

Yes, I realize that alot of those basics were utilized on BMQ, but there you also weren't on your own as much.  I have read too many articles, seen too many messages, heard too many stories, of the kids buying new cars and smashing them into walls, or mixing with the wrong crowd and being led down the garden path.  Or you get the ones that are quiet and shy, and just don't do anything because they don't know where to start.  And so the base has created a program of where to start.  Sure, maybe cleaning stations every night isn't going to teach you wrong from right.  And maybe having to stay in to listen to lectures every other night isn't going to keep you away from the Tutor House.  But it's a start.  No program ever started out perfect.

Learn from it, use what you can, help the others with your own knowledge and experience and carry on.  In the critique portion of the program, be sure to indicate your likes and dislikes.  And provide suggestions for solutions.  Those are always appreciated.  Oh, and welcome to the Navy.  ;D


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## 17thRecceSgt (21 Feb 2007)

airmich said:
			
		

> Learn from it, use what you can, *help the others with your own knowledge and experience and carry on*.  In the critique portion of the program, be sure to indicate your likes and dislikes.  And provide suggestions for solutions.  Those are always appreciated.  Oh, and welcome to the Navy.  ;D



Never been in the Navy, never will be (no offense!) but some things are true regardless of the DEU or capbadge we wear.

As for repitition?  How many times in your career do you think you will here the SISP and harassment briefings?  Get used to it.  If something is repeated, like safety during weapons classes, there is a reason for it.  

And as always, remember where you fit in to the puzzle.  I myself, am a small obscure piece, but my job is to make sure I fit in so the puzzle in complete.  Everyone else has that job too.


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## TAS278 (22 Feb 2007)

Not to sound cynical but this program sounds like a way to keep people from screwing up by keeping them busy. Not a bad idea, but it shouldn't mandatory rather a punishment. Trust me the course would still be full. Esquimalt QL3's always bring out "The Best" in young men and women, but not being treated like an adult doesn't help it. 
I am glad this is just a local program and I truly hope it doesn't migrate to Halifax. 

It does address some of the larger issues in the current CF, lack of structure, lack of PT, lack of discipline. Being spoon fed as an OD might be the only way to try to reinstill these values... 

Alas I am just a spectator.


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## Springroll (22 Feb 2007)

TAS278 said:
			
		

> It does address some of the larger issues in the current CF, lack of structure, lack of PT, lack of discipline. Being spoon fed as an OD might be the only way to try to reinstill these values...
> 
> Alas I am just a spectator.



These are very good points. The program really doesn't do much as far as structure and discipline is concerned, it is still the navy, but it definitely does address the need for more PT. We not only have PT on Tuesday and Thursday evenings, but we also have division PT every thursday afternoon. 

Now if we could convince some of the old sea dogs to go with us...


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## Sig_Des (22 Feb 2007)

Springroll said:
			
		

> Now if we could convince some of the old sea dogs to go with us...



You go ahead and try it, but I'm guessing those "old sea dogs" will take a big bite out of you "young pups"


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## NCRCrow (22 Feb 2007)

Do not worry, the old sea dogs will be running a 5km on the 23 Feb 07 and more Fleet PT to follow. 

This old sea dog got an Exempt!!!

Plus Marlant in Motion..........

The East Coast Navy has adopted a very aggressive PT program.

This is not the year to not do or even worse fail an EXPRES.


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## Springroll (22 Feb 2007)

Are you serious HfxCrow?

That is awesome!! Is Marlant having everyone participate in it? What a great idea!! 
I had heard something about MarPac doing something similar, but haven't seen anything as of yet. 

Sig_Des, you are totally right on that....they would eat me for lunch and use my bones as toothpicks.


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## NCRCrow (22 Feb 2007)

I am damn serious I got level 9.5...

Yes PT is a daily occurrence in the Fleet. Either with your department or personal or MARLANT runs.

Failing your PT test this year will have grave implications on your career and PER. 

So going back to NEIP PT , what a splendid idea!!


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## Springroll (22 Feb 2007)

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> I am damn serious I got level 9.5...
> 
> Yes PT is a daily occurrence in the Fleet. Either with your department or personal or MARLANT runs.
> 
> ...



No issues for me with passing it....this year I am going to go for my exemption. Should be easier now that I am a little lighter..lol
The NEIP PT is a great idea, if it was guided PT, but we are basically led into the gym and told to do whatever you want.


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## NCRCrow (22 Feb 2007)

Pay your dues and will see you on East Coast in time for cleaning stations.

Crow


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## flames9 (22 Feb 2007)

They do cleaning stations on the east coast?   ;D


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## NCRCrow (22 Feb 2007)

Do West coast AESOP's turn on their gear? ;D


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## Springroll (25 Feb 2007)

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> Do West coast AESOP's turn on their gear? ;D



lmfao! ;D


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## TAS278 (26 Feb 2007)

I heard they did once when the got it  Just to see what it looks like.

Back on topic, this still sounds like a huge waste of time just to get members back in the gym. 

NO offense to the older "sea dogs" But they will be out soon and the ones who can't do the PT will not be an issue. 

I see a problem with discipline.. but as I said my prospective is a little off so maybe everything is hunky dory.


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## mechanic_chick (27 Feb 2007)

Any way to bypass this BS? Like.. get posted to Halifax if I must? Or just time in / experience ... is this possible? * Starts writing memo *


Anyone know when the NETP's run? Im going to see if I can get this done while im here doing nothing on my attach posting .


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## Disenchantedsailor (12 Mar 2007)

Here I go again,

adn yes I'm a little opinionated,

NEIP for all hands joing CFFSE is garbage, I came here after 3 years as a soldier, NEIP didn't exist back then so we didnt do it, the thing that I first noticed was yes a discipline problem, guys smoking joints in the shacks, drinking in the shacks which is not permitted in ESQ (but grabage) the largest offence to my soldierly thinking was this gross lake of personal discipline should result in multiple pages of results of summery tribunals in RO's, they were and are still nearly absent. it's simple the young troops get out of line you nail then with a 129 every now and then a fine the first time and CELLS the next let them spend the weekend in the can (yes speaking from experience) they will learn that behavior like that will not be tolerated. a 3 month program of "do it on your own time" lectures and PT will not solve discipline problems in the long term when these young folks get to a ship, hit a foregin port, and blow 900 bucks thier first night in and stumble back to the boat shirtless. as for the PT, the CDS has made it very clear this is a leadership issue, as such it should be daily, should be mandatory, and should be during working hours, and ok lets have it from instructers, classroom time is valuable, I did time at the fleet school 2 carreer courses where it was busy, really busy 2 or 3 days a week and my opposable digit inserted into my rear the rest of the time, when we could have been at the gym or a ball diamond or playing floor hockey, team sports and unit cohesion not a new concept, but to force someone who has both military and life experience to be subjected to inspections during meal hours (1600) and lectures and tours (that they do get on NETP or OSQAB or whatever the hell its called now) is ludacris, not only to mention that the JR Ranks mess is damn near a ghost town all of the time. Another military institution going by the wayside, maybe the fleet school should talk to the PMC and start having mandatory social functions by division ie a CTC mess dinner, uh oh the soldier in me is lashing out again.


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## TAS278 (13 Mar 2007)

I wopuld love to see the mess dinner tradition extend down to the JR mess but that is up to our PO's/Sgt's. It is up to the JR's.


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## navymich (13 Mar 2007)

TAS278 said:
			
		

> I wopuld love to see the mess dinner tradition extend down to the JR mess but that is up to our PO's/Sgt's. It is up to the JR's.



What "mess dinner tradition"?  

Anyone can get a mess dinner organized.  There have got to be some old-timers in your mess that still know how things are done.  If not, then approach a PO or Chief.  Don't leave it to them to spread the traditions.  I found many times that I could talk about traditions, but if the "kids" had no interest or care in it, it wouldn't matter.  I agree alot of the traditions are falling to the wayside, and they need to be carried on, but there also needs to be the want in learning them too.


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## mudrecceman (13 Mar 2007)

TAS278 said:
			
		

> I wopuld love to see the mess dinner tradition extend down to the JR mess but that is up to our PO's/Sgt's. It is up to the JR's.



It is up to the POs/Sgts-WOs, or it is up to JRs?  Confused....


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## Disenchantedsailor (13 Mar 2007)

Like Airmich said anyone can get one together, provided you have the right support. I'm currently trying to garner support for a unit level JR Ranks "dining in" which is similar to a mess dinner but allows guests (wifes, girlfriends, hubbys, life partners that sort of thing)


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## navymich (13 Mar 2007)

Disenchantedsailor said:
			
		

> I'm currently trying to garner support for a unit level JR Ranks "dining in" which is similar to a mess dinner but allows guests (wifes, girlfriends, hubbys, life partners that sort of thing)



That is another great thing to have, as well.  It gives the chance for your support system at home to meet your extended family at work in more of a structured atmosphere.  Also, for the crew members that have not had the opportunity to attend a true mess dinner, a dining-in is a good stepping stone for them.


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## TAS278 (19 Mar 2007)

Sorry about that, I mistyped. I meant it was not up the PO's/Sgt's. But to the mebers of the mess. Also i think it would wrong to say that mess dinners aren't a tradition in the military. They may not be for a particular unit/base, but as far as I am concerned they are a military tradition.


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## Disenchantedsailor (19 Mar 2007)

Indeed they are but when was the last time a Jr Rank put on mess dress (JLC aside), most regiments have mess dinners 4 or 5 times a year


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## kratz (19 Mar 2007)

I know our ship's company works to put on one per year. Usually in the Feb/Mar timeframe. This year's was held 3 March 2007.


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## Disenchantedsailor (19 Mar 2007)

a rose among thorns, good for you guys


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## aesop081 (19 Mar 2007)

back to NEIP......

army.ca staff


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## Disenchantedsailor (19 Mar 2007)

And back to the real reason for the thread, yes I think NEIP does detract from study time, how cam it not when you're tied up with lectures and tours and PT every night until 20:00 not saying that all of those aren't important but they could be done during classroom time (especially PT and tours) and on that note just where do they take you folks to for tours during silent hours. (I will Say however I agree with the morning muster to inspect personal appearance, Dress, Drill, Deportment, the corner stones of Military Bearing).


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## BEEFY06 (20 Mar 2007)

I think all the negative points have been brought up and the only way that the course is going to change for the better is in a AAR or Course critic. But remmeber PEA when you are doing your course critic, dont just put down how shitty it is to have lectures at 1600 or PT and its "do what you want". If you come up with some sort of way to "improve the subject" then the standards personal that are conducting the course critic have more grounds to try and get the course fixed....

I also agree with allot of people that the Navy traditions are leaving our culture but "WE" the sailors are the ones that are doing it to ourselves. I remmeber the days when the ship or whatever unit i was at would have a get together and everyone would show up, right from the highest rank down. These days its all about spending quality time with the family!!!!!! or its lame to do that or something trival like that....OK before anyone gets to pissed off at me i have family myself and i remmeber a few times that i didnt want to go for whatever silly reason that i came up with and sometimes i didnt go, but the times that i did go it was excellent.

I remmber when i was on the Winnpeg we had a get together and it was bring your spouse, i think it was the first time that a ship did  that in a long time, needlesss to say it was awesome my wife got to meet everyone that i work with plus my CO, XO, and Coxn. It made her feel better when i left for 8 months and she knew who was looking after me to speak. 

Anyway most of the navy traditions are going away cause of no one carrying it on, or cause of quality of life issues!!!...in my mind very sad. The navy isnt what it was when i joined it 14 years ago.


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## Disenchantedsailor (20 Mar 2007)

well put


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## TAS278 (21 Mar 2007)

Your  opening remarks through me off as I have seen many AAR's/Course Critiques get completely ignored (especially in the navy). BUt everything else that you say makes great sense and I as well concur. If people would like to see things change then they need to stand up and voice it.


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## NavComm (24 Mar 2007)

Like most things in life, you get out of it what you put into it. I personally would not like to be on NEIP, but if it was required, I'd do my best to take advantage of the positives.

I'm just wondering how I can get one of those smoking rooms next time I am on course in Esquimalt.


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## Disenchantedsailor (24 Mar 2007)

No such beast anymore


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## FSTO (24 Mar 2007)

TAS278 said:
			
		

> Your opening remarks through me off as I have seen many AAR's/Course Critiques get completely ignored (especially in the navy). But everything else that you say makes great sense and I as well concur. If people would like to see things change then they need to stand up and voice it.


I call BS on that one. As a person who reads every one of the Course Critiques we attempt to change, alter, improve or explain every point brought up. NETP/NEIP course contents are constantly being massaged to improve the quality of training, but we cannot improve if we do not get CONSTRUCTIVE FEEDBACK!


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## navymich (24 Mar 2007)

FSTO said:
			
		

> I call BS on that one. As a person who reads every one of the Course Critiques we attempt to change, alter, improve or explain every point brought up. NETP/NEIP course contents are constantly being massaged to improve the quality of training, but we cannot improve if we do not get CONSTRUCTIVE FEEDBACK!


Exactly FSTO!


			
				airmich said:
			
		

> Learn from it, use what you can, help the others with your own knowledge and experience and carry on.  In the critique portion of the program, be sure to indicate your likes and dislikes.  And provide suggestions for solutions.  Those are always appreciated.  Oh, and welcome to the Navy.  ;D



Coming on here and talking about it and getting opinions is one thing.  But if you have a problem, or concern, or even questions about NEIP, or any course for that matter, it needs to be brought up.  And not just generalized bitching, but state what you think is the problem and provide a possible solution or suggestion for correcting it!  Look out for your buddies that might be on the course next, instead of just checking off "OK" on that weekly critique because you don't want to put the time or effort into it, or figure it's not worth it to fill it out.  Instructors aren't going to notice everything while they are teaching a course.  And if you keep a poker face, or don't talk about things in front of them, they will never know your feelings about it.  As well, don't just note the bad things.  Ensure that you emphasize what worked well, or what you enjoyed too!


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## Disenchantedsailor (24 Mar 2007)

Exactly, 

on course critiques it is easy to come up with a problem, great you've completed the first step, identify the issue/deficiencey, now its up to you to reccommend solutions, instead of the tour of Duntze head was crap, try "I found the tour of Duntze head, while historical didn't affect me one way or the other, perhaps conduction tours of Blackrock, NRS, JOC, JRCC and split into specific trades would be more worthwhile"  Keeping in mind NEIP is a fleet school initiated program (I may be wrong so FSTO feel free to correct me) there is no reason why the course cannot be massaged on flexible during exam/block leave periods. and of course my personal pet peeve, move PT into daily class routines. This is a DOAD requirement and as such should not encroach into mbr's personal time, while at the school that time should be taken up by kit maintenance, studies, and a wee bit of recreational time. after leaving the school well, thats up to the mbr.
Just my feeling on it


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## Sub_Guy (24 Mar 2007)

PT on personal time is a Navy thing.  Most courses do allow for PT on course time, and the PT regime they have in the Army makes the navy look like crap..

Example BIS mandatory PT for shift workers 3 times in 3 months.... Yeah that will make people sweat.

I never understood why the Navy is against PT, and YOU can't give me the WHO is going to get the work done speech!  Because that's a shitty excuse.

NEIP is a good idea from where I sit, but I am not the one being treated like a little kid.  I think their time after work is their time, evening lectures, tours, and anything else that takes away from personal time is bad. I just see it as a way to keep people from getting in shit.


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## NCRCrow (24 Mar 2007)

"PT on personal time is a Navy thing" I agree that mentality sucks.

Things are improving, as supervisors we have to encourage PT. Instead of eating with afternoon watchmen (which in reality is all of three people) and watching Springer. Go to the Dockyard gym and play a team sport or go use the Gym in the hangar (280 lady like myself).

See you on the  MARLANT mandatory 10k run this Friday. 

My section at work is all EXPRES tested and 60 per cent EXEMPT. I am proud of that. 

I think the NEIP should be an intensive week and that's it.

Crow


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## SoF (24 Mar 2007)

I'm currently on NEIP so here's my .2s. You have to muster in the morning after breakfast, the duty NEIP master seaman takes attendance, and then you're off to whatever(course, pat, etc).  After supper you muster again for cleaning stations at 6pm. Cleaning stations can go from 15 minutes to 45. After cleaning stations you can do one of several things; pt at the gym, lecture, or be dismissed. Tours are once a week, I've  only been on one which was a tour of an MCDV. The pt often falls on the same day as course or pat pt so you're stuck doing pt twice that day which is exhausting. I've only had one lecture so far which was very similar to one that I received at bmq. I don't see the point of an MCDV tour; seeing as how we're reg force. The program takes up much of your night (I don't get back to the shacks till 8 and I go to bed at 10 so I'm left with 2 hours which is very disappointing). I think this program was a great idea but was executed poorly.


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## Sub_Guy (24 Mar 2007)

May I ask what you are cleaning when it comes to cleaning stations?  

Isn't the block cleaned by cleaners?
If they are getting you to clean the block it sort of sounds like a make work project.  It would be ok if they didn't have civies cleaning the place.

Kind of reminds me of working at NRS where we clean the floor at 0500 and then some civy comes on in and cleans at 1000

THANK YOU TP!!


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## SoF (24 Mar 2007)

No one actually does any cleaning ;D, atleast not that I know of. Just go to your room and stay out of sight.


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## NCRCrow (24 Mar 2007)

LOL, we used to do cleaning stations at Black Rock. 

Decks, heads and classrooms and they had a full timer cleaner assigned to the building.

What a joke!

Agree!


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## Disenchantedsailor (24 Mar 2007)

Keep an eye open downstairs over the pool in the next couple of weeks, the CWO just got all the old kit Chilliwack was getting rid of (2 universals and a whack of dumbbells) as soon as the Old Man figures out where to put it, then the watches can work out, on watch, even on the mids, because really, is it ever that busy (rimpac excluded) that the watch can't spare 1 or 2 bodies at a time for an hour to work out.


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## TAS278 (26 Mar 2007)

FSTO said:
			
		

> I call BS on that one. As a person who reads every one of the Course Critiques we attempt to change, alter, improve or explain every point brought up. NETP/NEIP course contents are constantly being massaged to improve the quality of training, but we cannot improve if we do not get CONSTRUCTIVE FEEDBACK!





BS Huh ?

Well I can obviously only speak from experience. I have been on two pilot courses for my trade. We had 3 times as many critiques to write. We spent more time analyzing the value of the course than actually getting any value from it. The entire course recommended some sincere suggestions. 3 years later... the course is being run the exact same way and from those I talk to now. They complain about the same thing and offer up simple solutions which are completely ignored. BS... I think not. I wouldn't say something If i didn't know it to be true.


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## FSTO (26 Mar 2007)

TAS278 said:
			
		

> BS Huh ?
> 
> Well I can obviously only speak from experience. I have been on two pilot courses for my trade. We had 3 times as many critiques to write. We spent more time analyzing the value of the course than actually getting any value from it. The entire course recommended some sincere suggestions. 3 years later... the course is being run the exact same way and from those I talk to now. They complain about the same thing and offer up simple solutions which are completely ignored. BS... I think not. I wouldn't say something If i didn't know it to be true.



I will be staying in my lane here. I make this claim about the course critiques I see at Sea Div. Maybe things are done differently at CFNOS.


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## Kodiack99 (27 Mar 2007)

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> LOL, we used to do cleaning stations at Black Rock.
> 
> Decks, heads and classrooms and they had a full timer cleaner assigned to the building.
> 
> ...



I'm currently at Blackrock,and the cleaners are terrible,they dont speak english and their idea of cleaning is emptying garbages and leaving!
We still do most of the cleaning ourselves!LOL


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## TAS278 (27 Mar 2007)

FSTO said:
			
		

> I will be staying in my lane here. I make this claim about the course critiques I see at Sea Div. Maybe things are done differently at CFNOS.



Soory for sounding snarky, It is still a sour spot for me I guess. I would love to now that critiques work across the board. I know for some schools, when people who are in charge care, the take them seriously and try to action them, the best they can.


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## IN HOC SIGNO (27 Mar 2007)

Kodiack99 said:
			
		

> I'm currently at Blackrock,and the cleaners are terrible,they dont speak english and their idea of cleaning is emptying garbages and leaving!
> We still do most of the cleaning ourselves!LOL



Get used to it man. I've been fighting the battle for years with contract cleaners....nothing changes...ever.
we are entitled to 15 hours a week at the Chapel in Shearwater and the cleaner thinks that entails emptying the garbage and eating his breakfast or lunch in the kitchen. Had the same problem in Belmont Park when I was in Esquimalt......called in the Supervisor and showed them the contract (in both places) and I stand over their shoulder daily to make sure we get it done....after about a month they get the message that people are watching and they start to do their job....all this because we fired DND cleaners and went to contractors.......this is saving us money...HA HA  :


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## Disenchantedsailor (27 Mar 2007)

Still have that problem in the Belmont Chapel,

Apparently it takes a month to run a vaccum over the balcony


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## DONT_PANIC (27 Mar 2007)

FSTO said:
			
		

> I will be staying in my lane here. I make this claim about the course critiques I see at Sea Div. Maybe things are done differently at CFNOS.



And to be fair for the people who have to read the critiques, if they don't get anything helpful, then reading them is just a complete waste of time.  When I did NETP in the summer, I had to request my own critique form instead of the form the class was given, as most of their commentary was pretty irrelevant.


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## navymich (27 Mar 2007)

DONT_PANIC said:
			
		

> And to be fair for the people who have to read the critiques, if they don't get anything helpful, then reading them is just a complete waste of time.  When I did NETP in the summer, I had to request my own critique form instead of the form the class was given, as most of their commentary was pretty irrelevant.



On my current course, and any other course I've been on, we have always had separate critiques for each person.  That is the way that I think it should be.  Many people, unfortunately, don't feel the need to put much, if any, effort into them.  While others are quite vocal about their opinion.  Having separate ones then allows some critiques to actually be forwarded with pertinent information.  If you have a single form for the entire course, you will also find that some people won't/don't speak up on fear of being "found out" that it was them who said this or that, or they don't wish to voice their views aloud in front of classmates.


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## Springroll (3 Apr 2007)

FTSO, during my first two weeks of NEIP, both mondays were filled with "bitch" sessions.
We, as NEIP participants, were asked to make suggestions as to content and what we liked and disliked. 
So far, almost 2 months later, nothing has changed.

I am now on course and moving into a very intensive part of it that will take up part of my nights with night studies due to the classification of the content, and then on top of that i will still have to participate in NEIP. When am i going to get time to work on my kit? To visit with my family in town? Just be able to go to bed before midnight?

The program needs some major tweaking. 
It could be a great program if it was set up in a way where it did not interfere with the studies of those on course.

JMO

Now, for cleaning stations...maybe the females are the only ones doing anything, but we check the garbage cans and pick up anything on the floors in the hall, heads, lounge and laundry room. Thats it. Usually it is left to the newbie females to do....lol
Takes maybe 10 minutes to do...


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## TAS278 (3 Apr 2007)

What happened the Nelles Clean TEAM?


There were the shiz after a hard night on friday. You would hear every garabage can with booze cans/bottles in it... None of them are supposed to be there... Man.


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## SoF (9 Apr 2007)

Springroll said:
			
		

> The program needs some major tweaking.
> It could be a great program if it was set up in a way where it did not interfere with the studies of those on course.



Agreed. Neip needs a huge overhaul. 

Springroll have you told your instructor that neip is interfereing with your course studies? I started course last week but as soon as I find the program bothersome to my studying habits I will definitely bring it up with my instructor. For now the amount of my personal time that neip is eating up is my main concern.


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## IN HOC SIGNO (9 Apr 2007)

:rofl: I tryed that on BOTC and the Sgt pissed himself laughing.....of course that was 30 years ago I'm sure that appealing to an NCOs kinder gentler side works nowadays....but I wouldn't take that to the bank.


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## navymich (9 Apr 2007)

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> ... I'm sure that appealing to an NCOs kinder gentler side works nowadays....



They have a kinder gentler side?  Since when??  I know I was never issued one....  

But seriously, maybe the instructors aren't aware of the whole program and timings.  If all the students do is 'talk' (_I won't say the word that I am thinking!_) amongst themselves about it, nothing will come out of it.  Even just a casual conversation with your instructor someday, as a class "hey PO, have you heard about the NEIP?".  Doesn't hurt to ask to speak to them about it, but just remember to keep things calm and clean, and just point out the facts.  Maybe nothing will come out of it, but it can't/won't hurt to find out.


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## Springroll (10 Apr 2007)

Actually my instructors are also NEIP "babysitters" so they are well aware of it...but still not willing to budge. They think the program is wonderful....maybe they should do three months of it first.

I will also toss in that the first two weeks I was on NEIP, we had 2 lecture nights that were specifically set up for the higher ups to hear about our opinions of the program and what needs to be changed.


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## navymich (12 Apr 2007)

Springroll said:
			
		

> Actually my instructors are also NEIP "babysitters" so they are well aware of it...but still not willing to budge. They think the program is wonderful....maybe they should do three months of it first.



As I continue to remain the devil's advocate on this discussion...

Thank you for bringing to our attention that your instructors are also there for this.  I will assume (yes, I know what this makes me  ) that not all of the same instructors are there each and every night, probably rotated throughout the schools?  But nonetheless, it means that they are also giving up some of their personal time (this was a point made in an earlier post, about losing out on personal time).  One would believe that the instructors have alot more going on in their personal lives (family, homes, community activities etc) then the students on the course.  As well, the students may have homework and assignments, but these instructors also have lesson plans, admin etc, that they need to work on too, to get you through the course.  So yes, the people taking NEIP may feel that they are hard-done by, and that the lectures and tours aren't required, and they should have their time to themselves.  But the instructors have "been there done that" years before as well, and are still putting in plenty of time to get you started on your own career.

It's 3 months out of your life folks.  Suck it up and carry on.  It's not going to be the best thing you have to do in your military life, but highly doubtful it will be your worst either.


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## NCRCrow (12 Apr 2007)

Have you done the course?


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## navymich (12 Apr 2007)

No, I have not done NEIP.  I have done courses at the base, while living in shacks, and also having to go into class at night too.  I know, it doesn't compare probably to what they are doing exactly, but I am saying that it isn't as if I have no experience with life there as a student.  

As I stated in my last post, I have been playing devil's advocate.  Unfortunately, we have not had any instructors post about NEIP from their view, or anyone either that put the program together.  Until then, we are only seeing the student's side of things, and they are not the only one with a voice.


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## SoF (12 Apr 2007)

I'm not sure what the rotation is for duty neip master seamans but I can say I've been on neip for almost a month and still havn't had the same ms twice as a neip instructor.   I do appreciate those master seamans who must give up their personal time for neip, however we (od's) lose our night monday to thursday where as the neip instructors lose significantly much less personal time over neip.


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## Disenchantedsailor (12 Apr 2007)

those same neip instructors (required until 20:00) also do not stand base duty watches (24Hrs)


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## Sub_Guy (13 Apr 2007)

I think its a big waste of the OD's time, in my mind it is nothing more than a babysitting service.  You know someone got a big fat PER from this though.

Just because you are new to the Navy way of life doesn't mean you are immature or need supervision all the time.  Your time off is just that, YOUR TIME.

I am sure most like it, but then again some people like prison too.  Just another way the Navy is going to increase numbers in the army and air force, by treating the sailors like kids, they will leave and go work where they will be treated like adults.


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## Springroll (26 Apr 2007)

ArtyNewbie said:
			
		

> those same neip instructors (required until 20:00) also do not stand base duty watches (24Hrs)



That is exactly why one of my instructors took it...so that they didn't have to stand any base duty watches.
Must be nice.

Regardless, tomorrow is my last day on this ridiculous program and I am going to make darn sure my thoughts and suggestions get put into the critique.


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## NCRCrow (26 Apr 2007)

don't waste your breath! 

The NEIP was somebody's brainchild and they will protect the validity and integrity of the course til the end. Training systems!!

Go for a beer instead. (non-alcoholic of course)


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## copecowboy (27 Sep 2007)

Springroll said:
			
		

> That is exactly why one of my instructors took it...so that they didn't have to stand any base duty watches.
> Must be nice.
> 
> Regardless, tomorrow is my last day on this ridiculous program and I am going to make darn sure my thoughts and suggestions get put into the critique.




Don't forget the number of times you were late for neip.


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## Sub_Guy (27 Sep 2007)

I am a little slow

I just figured it out!

NEIP = C*CK

The navy likes = C*CK

SO buy introducing new sailors to C*CK they will be more acceptable of it and more likely to stay in!

Ahhh Good times in the Navy.   I certainly hope my maid changes my towels out of my room today!


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## Ex-Dragoon (27 Sep 2007)

Welcome to the Warning system D_H


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## Sub_Guy (27 Sep 2007)

I'm Dolphin_Hunter, NOT D_H! 

Dolphin_Hunter signing out with nice clean towels


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## Ex-Dragoon (27 Sep 2007)

Keep up with the attitude and you will be just...gone!


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## SoF (27 Sep 2007)

4 1/2 months since I've been out of neip and I don't miss a second of it.


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## Springroll (28 Sep 2007)

SoF said:
			
		

> 4 1/2 months since I've been out of neip and I don't miss a second of it.



I'm with you on that SoF!!
I guess they are in the midsts of "renovating" NEIP due to the many complaints received not only by the newbies but by course instructors too. Hopefully it changes soon for the next batch of sailors.


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## Sub_Guy (28 Sep 2007)

There is no doubt that this program is a the pet of someone, and its better off if this pet is put to sleep.  Thousands of people joined the Navy long before the NEIP and there were no problems, we didn't need a babysitter, we didn't need lectures on Naval traditions, we didn't need organized PT in the evenings.  We did our work day at the school, we studied in the evening, we did our own PT and we partied.  Sure people got in shit, but listen to any good story from one of your supervisors and I will bet anything it always ends up with someone getting in shit. 

If the students and staff are critiquing the program in a professional matter, it could quite possibly be changed, or put down.  

You know things seem to go in rotations, when I was there on my QL3 course the duty watch would muster (a truck load of us, sometimes close to 15 on a duty watch at Nelle's) and we were sent to the fleet club, gym, and our watch rotation was setup, we would have to sit the room on the second floor WATCHING the flag out in the parade square just to make sure that no one would take it!  Then while living in Nelles on IR 3 years later the duty watch consisted of only a handful of people (3 sounds like the number) So eventually NEIP will run its course and it will be nothing but a bad boring story for the new sailors (when they are supervisors) to tell their junior personnel.

I don't know what it is with the navy, but some of the things they come with are pretty lame.  I did enjoy my time with the navy, but its the small things that get me fired up.  An example is this; PO2 Biggut goes into the heads and craps all over the toilet, he doesn't clean it up, OS Keenguy is tasked to clean it up as part of his cleaning station.  That is complete  nonsense.   I am by no means Captain Highliner, but having sailed on the Iroquois, Protecteur, Regina, Vancouver and the Victoria I can honestly say that on all 3 SURFACE ships this was a common occurrence.   SO perhaps the navy can start righting its ways by treating its junior personnel with some respect, and not have them cleaning up their crap.  The worst thing is that there is usually a toilet brush around, use the damn thing.


OS Keenguy go and help clean the smoking area

"But I don't smoke"

OS Keenguy I am only going to ask once      <---- actually witnessed that, he wasn't the same trade as myself and it only happened the one time.  Shouldn't have happened at all.


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## Ex-Dragoon (28 Sep 2007)

> I don't know what it is with the navy, but some of the things they come with are pretty lame.  I did enjoy my time with the navy, but its the small things that get me fired up.  An example is this; PO2 Biggut goes into the heads and craps all over the toilet, he doesn't clean it up, OS Keenguy is tasked to clean it up as part of his cleaning station.  That is complete  nonsense.   I am by no means Captain Highliner, but having sailed on the Iroquois, Protecteur, Regina, Vancouver and the Victoria I can honestly say that on all 3 SURFACE ships this was a common occurrence.   SO perhaps the navy can start righting its ways by treating its junior personnel with some respect, and not have them cleaning up their crap.  The worst thing is that there is usually a toilet brush around, use the damn thing.



And it happens until someone complains to the COXN, then you see it does not happen....I take it you never went through your chain of command to have it dealt with then. These incidents do happen but once the Coxn gets win , they stop PDQ. And its just not the C&POs who don't clean up after themselves either, the MS and below and Wardroom are not innocents in this either.


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## Sub_Guy (28 Sep 2007)

I sure did go through the chain, things changed, for the short term.  Yes the wardroom and the Jr ranks can be slobs, but who cleans the ship?  The junior ranks do.


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## FSTO (29 Sep 2007)

Okay Dolphin_Hunter we catch your drift. You're not too enamoured with the way the Navy does some things. 

The reason for NEIP was, as per normal, a response to the actions of a few. Was it an over reaction? Probably but something had to be done. 

To hammer this point home I got on my soapbox during a QL3 Navigation class. The class was noting that some of the videos they were seeing were out of date. My reaction was this, the reason we (the staff) are not working on the administration of improving their education experience, getting new training kit and updating the videos is because we are spending most of our time on the 2 or 3 guys who are in the crap! I said to the class that with the Initial Counselling, Recorded Warning, C&P, letters to DMCARM, Police Reports, Drug Tests (all this for one guy) and all the rest, the amount of time we can spend on the other 95% is quite limited. I also told the students that it is incumbent on them to discourage the adverse behaviour of the bad apples and if the bad ones won't stop then bring it to our attention and we can deal with it. This is not being a rat because I pointed out to them that would they be comfortable during rescue stations, or a RAS or fighting a fire if their partner was not completely in control of his facilities. The sea is an unforgiving environment and we need people who are dedicated to the service and not more concerned with finding the next hit.


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## navymich (29 Sep 2007)

FSTO said:
			
		

> The reason for NEIP was, as per normal, a response to the actions of a few. Was it an over reaction? Probably but something had to be done.



Exactly FSTO.  And like most things, it's not going to be perfect, or work the way it should, the first time through.  Maybe/hopefully they will take the constructive criticism and work the kinks out of it.  Or they might cancel the program, or completely start from scratch with it.  I'm sure that we can all name some things in our military career that we've thought were completely worthless or that we could have done better if we had been in charge.  But you roll with it, submit your comments and carry on.


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## Sub_Guy (30 Sep 2007)

The actions of a few and everyone pays?  How is that good?  Was Nelles block turning into a gangland or something?

How about severely punishing the few, the message would get out pretty quick.  Sure the NEIP program sounds good, how about incorporating into the NETP course?

Another option could be that the schools could increase the workload on the QL3 training thus giving the students more work to do in the block, and those who want to piss around will without a doubt fail.  

The only real opinion that matters is that of the instructors and students, I have heard some bad reviews from a few instructors, but I am sure that there are many who think its great.   The problem is that most will see those who are complaining as leaf's fans (whiny babies  :crybaby: - like some see me - not a leaf's fan) so if they critique it professionally it might help but I doubt it.


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## navymich (30 Sep 2007)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> The actions of a few and everyone pays?  How is that good?  Was Nelles block turning into a gangland or something?



I don't think the program was designed as a punishment, although many saw it that way.  From what I understand, and from what was said in the earlier parts of this thread, the program was also an introduction to the area.  The actions of some might not have been severe enough for charging or such, but more of the disruptive nature.  In turn, develop a program to keep everyone busy.

The point of the program was to put the new arrivals to Esquimalt on it, so the fact of adding extra workload to the 3's courses, or incorporating the information into the NETP course wouldn't have worked as many sit around on PAT waiting for those courses.  And therein laid the problem "idle hands..." 




			
				Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> ...I have heard some bad reviews from a few instructors, but I am sure that there are many who think its great.



Right now, we are only getting the information about the course from the students that were on it, and from others through heresay.  To get the side from the instructors (good AND bad) as well as background from the developers of the program, would add a whole new perspective.


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## SoF (1 Oct 2007)

I found the forced pt to be completely useless. If someone doesn't want to workout then they wont. I'd see people duck out the gym (sometimes including me if I had already done course pt); or even worse you'd see people chatting it up or sitting in the hot tub for a couple hours. Yes the program was designed to keep new sailors out of trouble but all neip has done is punish hard working individuals because as we all know trouble makers will seek trouble one way or another; doesn't matter if they're off work at 4 or 8 at night.


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## Sig_Des (2 Oct 2007)

SoF said:
			
		

> I found the forced pt to be completely useless. If someone doesn't want to workout then they wont. I'd see people duck out the gym (sometimes including me if I had already done course pt); or even worse you'd see people chatting it up or sitting in the hot tub for a couple hours. Yes the program was designed to keep new sailors out of trouble but all neip has done is punish hard working individuals because as we all know trouble makers will seek trouble one way or another; doesn't matter if they're off work at 4 or 8 at night.



Sounds like a incorrect solution to a problem. If there's a problem with people keeping in shape, and you need to implement forced PT, then you should be supervising and leading said PT.

That being said, I don't agree with having to implement forced physical training, because "people aren't wanting to workout, so they won't". There's lot's of things in the military that no one wants to do, but if it comes to you, you don't have to want to. You just have to do it.

As far as PT, the way I look at it is, it's your JOB to be fit enough to perform your duties. The employers who PAY you to work out and stay in shape are few and far in between.


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## Auxtime (25 Jun 2008)

I have been on NEIP now for a month, and I found that the first week was informative, and helpful, and the 3 weeks after it has become more and more apparent, that it is a make-work project, to keep people out of shit. It feels more and more like i am being punished for someone else's mistakes. 

The cleaning stations are a joke, as they have hired cleaners...so everyone just goes to their rooms. I don't mind the PT, I just don't think it should be for two hours. PT would be better if it were only 1 hour, and lead by psp staff, and those already doing mandatory PT on course should be exempt. There really hasn't been an informative lecture since the first week.

NEIP should be only a month, or they should actually make it informative, and have lectures on naval history and tradition, and information about the ships in harbour, and the general doings going on in the base, instead of the ever consistant don't do drugs lecture.

NEIP on the whole is uninspired.


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## George Wallace (25 Jun 2008)

Auxtime said:
			
		

> ....... I don't mind the PT, I just don't think it should be for two hours. PT would be better if it were only 1 hour, and lead by psp staff, and those already doing mandatory PT on course should be exempt. .



I don't think you grasp the idea of "Remedial PT".  Those people can't keep up with normal PT, so just like some students who need to get extra tutoring to pass, so these people need extra PT to pass.  You wouldn't want the people that need the extra tutoring to be exempt class too, would you?

As for the two hours of PT: You just complained that the rest of your Course Day was a waste of time, and now you want to cut down the PT by one hour..............So that you can have yet another hour each day of wasted time.

I took Logic 101 at university, and those two theories fail the litmus test.


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## Auxtime (25 Jun 2008)

I currently do an hour of PT lead by the psp as a part of my NETP course twice a week, what Im saying is that if NEIP was to actually have a PT class where it was lead by PSP staff, those on NETP should be exempt, as it would be unfair to require them to do PT 4 times a week, and to have those off course only do it twice a week. But I am still advocating for NEIP to have a psp lead PT class. None of the PT here is "remedial". The way PT works for NEIP right now is that you show up to the gym for two hours and play a non-competitive game of some sport... or you sit there and talk to people, or you goto the pool... very few people are actually working out and most are sneaking out as soon it is possible. It is  basically there to eat up your time. If they are going to use up my time, I want it to be at least worth while.


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## George Wallace (25 Jun 2008)

Auxtime said:
			
		

> I............... It is  basically there to eat up your time. If they are going to use up my time, I want it to be at least worth while.



So?  Put it to good use.  Run.  Go to the Weight Room.  Play a Team Sport.  Use the Raquet Ball Courts.  Swim.  

It is only a "waste of time" if you make it a waste of time.


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## Auxtime (25 Jun 2008)

If I wanted PT 4 times a week I would have joined the army. I already RUN, do circuits, and do weightlifting.

I am talking about how to improve NEIP from the Ordinary Seamans perspective, as I am currently in the program, and can see some major problems with it.

I am not trying to get myself out of pt, or do less work. I want the program to be worthwhile, fair, and make sense. Because as it stands, it is a make-work project.


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## aesop081 (25 Jun 2008)

Auxtime said:
			
		

> If I wanted PT 4 times a week I would have joined the army.



PT 4 times a week should not be limited to the army. Thanks for giving yet another reason for people to think the other services are slack.

From an airforce guy who does PT 6 days a week (flying schedule permitting)


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## Sig_Des (25 Jun 2008)

Auxtime said:
			
		

> I currently do an hour of PT lead by the psp as a part of my NETP course twice a week, what Im saying is that if NEIP was to actually have a PT class where it was lead by PSP staff, those on NETP should be exempt, as it would be unfair to require them to do PT 4 times a week, and to have those off course only do it twice a week.



Wow...4 PT sessions a week...how unfair. I guess if I had a heart, I'd shed tears.



			
				Auxtime said:
			
		

> If I wanted PT 4 times a week I would have joined the army



Hmm...so, what you're saying is, that strenuous and energy-intensive activity is limited to the Army? As much as I like slagging the squids, I know a few who'll be a bit upset when they hear that.

BTW, if you need PSP staff to lead your PT sessions, do you also need one of the employees to hold your hand down the aisles of a grocery store?


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## Auxtime (25 Jun 2008)

sorry, my mistake for sharing my opinion on an internet forum. That will teach me for trying to make suggestions to improve a program.


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## Sig_Des (25 Jun 2008)

Auxtime said:
			
		

> sorry, my mistake for sharing my opinion on an internet forum. That will teach me for trying to make suggestions to improve a program.



Ah, allow me to clarify.

While short, I could agree with what you state here, as you offer something of value that could be implemented.



			
				Auxtime said:
			
		

> NEIP should be only a month, or they should actually make it informative, and have lectures on naval history and tradition, and information about the ships in harbour, and the general doings going on in the base, instead of the ever consistant don't do drugs lecture.



Where you lose me is the "Woe is me, I must do PT 4 times a week, but I'm not in the Army, so why should I".

I'd rather be getting paid to keep myself fit, then sitting around doing nothing. Why would you want to cut something of value?


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## Auxtime (25 Jun 2008)

Beadwindow 7 said:
			
		

> Wow...4 PT sessions a week...how unfair. I guess if I had a heart, I'd shed tears.
> 
> Hmm...so, what you're saying is, that strenuous and energy-intensive activity is limited to the Army? As much as I like slagging the squids, I know a few who'll be a bit upset when they hear that.
> 
> BTW, if you need PSP staff to lead your PT sessions, do you also need one of the employees to hold your hand down the aisles of a grocery store?



I am not saying it is limited to the army. I could have easily said Diver, or boarding party. 


I use my time at PT to be physically active. There are large amounts of people on NEIP that dont. If they want OS bloggins to get into the routine of being physically active, then they are doing a poor job of it. I am trying to improve the program... I am not sure why you guys are attacking me, like I have slighted you...


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## George Wallace (25 Jun 2008)

Auxtime said:
			
		

> sorry, my mistake for sharing my opinion on an internet forum. That will teach me for trying to make suggestions to improve a program.



 ???

Suggestions?  Sounded more like complaints with some less than usual amount of thought put into your ideas and a lack of initiative to do PT on your own when the opportunity was given to you. 

If you can't take critisim, or have your 'theories' disected and analysed, it is a waste of time you being in the CF or any job.  The flaws in you logic were pointed out to you, and the possibility that your were insulting other members with your comments, and now you want to take off and sulk.  That will not take you very far in the world today.


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## Auxtime (25 Jun 2008)

Beadwindow 7 said:
			
		

> I'd rather be getting paid to keep myself fit, then sitting around doing nothing. Why would you want to cut something of value?



Being paid to be fit is fine. I am just tired of having my time wasted with NEIP, when the program could be so much better.


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## George Wallace (26 Jun 2008)

Auxtime said:
			
		

> ........... I am just tired of having my time wasted with NEIP, when the program could be so much better.



And that is why there are "Weekly Standards Critiques" and an "End Course Critique".  There are mechanisms in place to address short comings of Courses/Course material/Course structure/Course facilities/etc.


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## Sig_Des (26 Jun 2008)

Auxtime said:
			
		

> Being paid to be fit is fine. I am just tired of having my time wasted with NEIP, when the program could be so much better.



I recently was going through my pictures of Exes since I did my basic. Prevalentl were pictures of guys lying aroung. If you don't like wasted time, you're in the wrong line of work.

Best you can do is take what you can from the program, and take the time given to you to keep fit.

If it irks you so much, talk to the PSP staff, get them to give you a good basic work-out schedule, and pass it on to those you think aren't doing what they can to keep fit, or talk to your staff about it.

At the end, when it comes time for your AAR, bring up your points and suggestions there.


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## Auxtime (26 Jun 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> ???
> 
> Suggestions?  Sounded more like complaints with some less than usual amount of thought put into your ideas and a lack of initiative to do PT on your own when the opportunity was given to you.
> 
> If you can't take critisim, or have your 'theories' disected and analysed, it is a waste of time you being in the CF or any job.  The flaws in you logic were pointed out to you, and the possibility that your were insulting other members with your comments, and now you want to take off and sulk.  That will not take you very far in the world today.



I can handle critisism, I just dont know why you are being so hostile...

Its like you didnt read my first post at all.. I stated from first hand knowledge what was wrong with the program, and then made suggestions on how to improve it. My problem is not with doing PT, infact I suggested to have it lead by PSP staff so that more people utilize the time. I just think that If I am doing PT as part of my course, that I should get to decide what evenings and at what time I do it. As it stands they only make us goto the gym so that troublemakers are not out drinking... which they are anyway after... 

PT isnt even my main issue with NEIP. My issue is hearing the dont do drugs lecture over and over, or watching the same truth duty honour... over and over, when they could spend the time to introduce us to actual information about the navy....


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## aesop081 (26 Jun 2008)

Auxtime said:
			
		

> My issue is hearing the dont do drugs lecture over and over,



Judging by recent events, one of them very much in the news involving the Navy, i would venture to say that going over it over and over again is needed.


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## Auxtime (26 Jun 2008)

Beadwindow 7 said:
			
		

> Best you can do is take what you can from the program, and take the time given to you to keep fit.



Isnt the name of this thread "NEIP...what is your opinion? " 

I was just stating my opinion, I wasnt thinking anything was going to be changed. I plan to bring it up with those in charge of the program, even then I dont expect it to change.


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## Auxtime (26 Jun 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Judging by recent events, one of them very much in the news involving the Navy, i would venture to say that going over it over and over again is needed.



are you telling me that those with drug addictions are actually going to change their life around because some unenthusiastic PO2 gives them a don't do drugs power point presentation... over and over?


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## George Wallace (26 Jun 2008)

Auxtime said:
			
		

> I can handle critisism, I just dont know why you are being so hostile...


   :  It didn't look like it with the comments we quoted you as saying.


			
				Auxtime said:
			
		

> Its like you didnt read my first post at all.. I stated from first hand knowledge what was wrong with the program, and then made suggestions on how to improve it. My problem is not with doing PT, infact I suggested to have it lead by PSP staff so that more people utilize the time. I just think that If I am doing PT as part of my course, that I should get to decide what evenings and at what time I do it. As it stands they only make us goto the gym so that troublemakers are not out drinking... which they are anyway after...


I read your post.  I even quoted your post.  It sounded like a complaint and was chock full of faulty logic (which I can see, you still haven't figured out).


			
				Auxtime said:
			
		

> PT isnt even my main issue with NEIP. My issue is hearing the dont do drugs lecture over and over, or watching the same truth duty honour... over and over, when they could spend the time to introduce us to actual information about the navy....



You made PT an issue.  You got caught for it.

You have been given suggestions of how to try and fix it by using mechanisms already in place to "Critique" a Crse.


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## aesop081 (26 Jun 2008)

Auxtime said:
			
		

> are you telling me that those with drug addictions are actually going to change their life around because some unenthusiastic PO2 gives them a don't do drugs power point presentation... over and over?



Probably not, but those who dont do drugs might at least think twice before starting.


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## George Wallace (26 Jun 2008)

Auxtime said:
			
		

> are you telling me that those with drug addictions are actually going to change their life around because some unenthusiastic PO2 gives them a don't do drugs power point presentation... over and over?



Probably not, but some may see the light when they walk out of a class and standing there are the MPs with a van and five or six are randomly taken away for a Random Drug Test.

The warnings, as you have stated, were given over and over again in several classes.


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## Springroll (26 Jun 2008)

Auxtime, thanks for stating your opinion!

As I am sure you know, alot of the other OD's here on base feel the same way as you about the program. 
Its not necessarily the PT the bothers them, but the uninformative and repetitive lectures. 
I have actually compiled a list of the pro's and con's of the program to send up the chain in hopes of making the program a little more beneficial to those just new to the Navy.

A few things I have down is maybe some time at sea (even just day sails) for those that are not on course, more lectures on Naval History(a short tour of the museum on NETP is not quite enough!), and as you suggested, some PSP lead PT. 

If you can throw together some pro's vs con's, I can add them to my current one. 
When you complete your 3 month "sentence", you do get to fill out a critique. Make sure to state your opinions in that as well. The way the critique system is set up, it requires everyone to read it and acknowledge it, so it would be VERY beneficial to be as specific as you can and take the time to fill everything in. 

As far as the drug lectures go, I know they are getting repetitive, but they are only doing this so that they can get it through the skulls of those who are most at risk to use drugs. 

BTW, Welcome to Victoria! 
Hope your stay here is a great one!!


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## copecowboy (25 Jul 2008)

It sucks and you benefit nothing from it, that's the final answer. The navy tends to miss represent itself for the new guys. Once you get on ship it's nothing like you learn.


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## Disenchantedsailor (26 Jul 2008)

After having read some of the last few posts I have to step in...... Auxtime you are whining, plain and simple.   I never did the NEIP program when i was a sialor back then it was OSQAB and involved no nights,  the reason for the PT may have something to do with the 68% express fail rate in the formation over the last 3 years, as for having PSP run it, there is no requirement,  all PLQ\JLC Qual MCpl/MS and above are able to lead in PT,   since coming over to the army we have yet to have PSP run our soldiers through unit level stuff.  The rest of the boring lectures, sure some are boring, some dont go deep enough in depth it think (after having given some myself) well, there will always be boring lectures, unit PD Day comes to mind,  its 3 months of your life, deal with it,  I've been on course for the last year, away from my wife and kids who have supported me through my military carreer for the last ten years. Not pretty but neccessary to get where I want to be,  learn what you can, ask questions of the poor buggers who are using thier family's time to pass they're knowledge on to you. And as for the drug addictions, the formation is a lot more lenient than say 1 RCHA for example, in Victoria you get to go on C&P and an all expense paid trip to Nan to rehab, out here at 1 RCHA you get an AR and a boot, catch my drift, they may be boring and repetative but marpac did have a drug ring for a while, perhaps now it can be understood the reasons behind the whole boring drug lectures crap.


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## copecowboy (30 Jul 2008)

Well the pt part is the only good thing about the course, the navy should have remedial pt anyways.


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## Ex-Dragoon (30 Jul 2008)

mmike said:
			
		

> Well the pt part is the only good thing about the course, the navy should have remedial pt anyways.



They do for those members that fail their express test... :


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## copecowboy (30 Jul 2008)

You mean they apply that for members who fail their express test. It doesn't happen. I would love for us to show up at the dockyard at 7 and go for an hour run.


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## Ex-Dragoon (30 Jul 2008)

BS....any sailor I have ever seen fail their express test has always been put on remedial.


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## copecowboy (30 Jul 2008)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> BS....any sailor I have ever seen fail their express test has always been put on remedial.


80% of my department has failed their express test. They go to the gym for 30 mins than come back and eat a poutine with extra cheese.


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## Ex-Dragoon (30 Jul 2008)

mmike said:
			
		

> 80% of my department has failed their express test. They go to the gym for 30 mins than come back and eat a poutine with extra cheese.



Then they are the ones that will pay for it when they get retested.


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## Disenchantedsailor (5 Aug 2008)

Indeed,  and yes a few units in the formation do check these things, and yes some have even been given the old you might want to look for a new job now that you're pensionable before we give you the golden boot.  It's frustrating when you watch a unit become combat innefective overnight due to express testing but remember this, you too will be a supervisor of these folks one day,  maybe sooner than others because you get and extra point on your PER for an exemption, and when you are start a pt program, enforce your pt program and make your dept the fittest in the fleet.  I too was a young OD watching folks who couldn;t fit through an escape hatch walk around ship.  Trust me those days are fewer now.  But don;t let others laziness get to you, maintain your motivation and be the example for others to follow.


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## Eye In The Sky (5 Aug 2008)

mmike said:
			
		

> 80% of my department has failed their express test. They go to the gym for 30 mins than come back and eat a poutine with extra cheese.



I'm not calling you a liar, I don't even know your unit BUT...if I assume what you are saying it correct, then..your CoC is quilty of a service offence, in that they are not following DAOD 5023-2 Physcial Fitness Program, specifically:

Failure to Achieve Physical Fitness Standards
Action by CO If a CF member fails to meet the MPFS or complete the CMTFE, or is not evaluated, the CF member’s CO _*shall*_ examine the circumstances to determine the reasons.

If the CO determines that the CF member failed or was not evaluated for reasons within the CF member’s control, the CO _*shall*_:

- initiate remedial measures under DAOD 5019-4, Remedial Measures; and

- direct remedial physical fitness training as set out the Remedial Physical Fitness Training and Re-evaluation block.


Notice the use of the word SHALL.  That means imperative.  The CO has no choice, unless he/she choses to ignore direction from higher in the CoC.  Remember the level in which a DAOD is signed off, who the authority is for its content.  

So, those are some seriously allegations, IMHO.


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