# HMCS Halifax sailors hurt in heavy seas



## Navalsnpr (3 Feb 2005)

HMCS Halifax sailors hurt in heavy seas
     
Canadian Press 

Thursday, February 03, 2005

HALIFAX (CP) -- Three sailors aboard a Canadian navy frigate sustained minor injuries Thursday morning while the ship was rolling violently in heavy seas off the U.S. coast. 

One of the three men on board HMCS Halifax was flown ashore to McGuire Air Force Base in New Jersey by the ship's helicopter. A news release said the airlift was a "precautionary measure.'' 

The man, whose name wasn't released, was later transferred to Virtua Memorial hospital in Mount Holly, N.J., for treatment. 

A nurse in the emergency ward at the civilian hospital said in the evening that the sailor had suffered a minor knee injury and left the hospital using crutches. 

Two other navy personnel remained in the ship's sickbay under observation on Thursday evening. 

"The injuries are along the lines of bumps, bruises and possible fractures,'' said navy spokesperson Lt.-Cmdr. Denise LaViolette, who said she couldn't be more precise about the nature of the injuries. 

However, she added, "they're not serious.'' 

Five other members of the ship's company were also examined by the medical officer aboard HMCS Halifax, but were released after a few hours. 

"They were in rough seas, and rolling back and forth when a large wave hit. Some folks were thrown about a little bit and that's how the injuries occurred,'' said LaViolette. 

"If you're on a ship and all of a sudden it takes a fairly stiff roll, you're going to have people and things flying.'' 

Asked if training might avoid such incidents, she responded, "No matter how good your balance is, if the floor is taken from under your feet you're going to end up somewhere.'' 

The frigate was in four-metre seas at the time, going through routine manoeuvres off the eastern seaboard. 

LaViolette said the vessel will continue to be deployed off the United States, and has carried on with its mission. 

The frigate has a total crew of 225 people on board. 

© Canadian Press 2005


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## buckahed (4 Feb 2005)

This is a joke, right?


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## George Wallace (4 Feb 2005)

It made the major networks.  CTV.  CHUM.

GW


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## Scoobie Newbie (4 Feb 2005)

Why would you think its a joke?


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## buckahed (4 Feb 2005)

A medevac flight for a sprained knee? A press release for a bunch of scrapes and bruises?

This is a frigate in an Atlantic storm in February. Lots of the crew are bruised and banged up right now and more than a few are dehydrated from seasickness. Goes with the job. Does the army issue press releases detailing how many blisters and sore knees they got cause it rained on a route march?


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## Big Bad John (4 Feb 2005)

Did it say sprained.  Facts not in evidence!


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## buckahed (4 Feb 2005)

Your right. What it actually said was a "minor knee injury" and the sailor left the hospital using crutches the same day. Sorry.


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## Big Bad John (4 Feb 2005)

Could be anything though, trauma, cartlidge???  Best not to speculate.

Cheers


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## Navalsnpr (4 Feb 2005)

With the ship rocking up and down, a minor leg injury can be aggrivated and worsen because of the motion.

Just like being in an elevator, when it goes up, the weight exerted on your body increases. It's hard enough walking around with good legs during rough weather.... try doing it with a bummed up leg.


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## buckahed (4 Feb 2005)

So he gets taken off watch and lashed into his bunk. BTDT. Possibly agravating a knee injury versus the risk  of a medevac flight in bad weather?


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## Strike (4 Feb 2005)

Still a stupid article.  Was there nothing better to write about?  I've seen guys break their legs from bad landings or land in trees after a jump and there is never a care from the papers.

Guess it was a slow news day.


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## Navalsnpr (4 Feb 2005)

In peacetime, if a medevac is available, go for it.

Remember, there isn't normally a doctor onboard, just a Cpl/MCpl Medic and a WO Medic.

If it were me, I'd rather go to a hospital and have a doctor check it out.


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## Inch (4 Feb 2005)

*Warning* What you are about to read is pure speculation and is only thrown on here because I'm getting over a cold and have nothing better to do tonight.


Maybe it wasn't really a medevac. Maybe the Sea King was going to shore anyways so they just took him along, which to the media makes it a medevac.   

Now here's one the media and probably no one but MH aircrew would think of.....   It's the beginning of the month and pilots have certain quals that we have to maintain monthly, and due to the sea state they couldn't take off and head to shore for anything other than an "emergency" situation. So they medevac this guy (emergency thus allowing them to take off when under "normal" conditions they can't), go to shore, drop buddy off at the hospital, do what they need to do (ie instrument approaches, among other things), pick buddy up and fly back to the ship.


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## Big Bad John (4 Feb 2005)

It seems reasonable to me.  I also like the way that you qualified your statement.  Good posting!


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## Navalsnpr (4 Feb 2005)

Inch.... good speculation...

Maybe the aircraft was on the way in to pick up a part for the ship?? Who knows....


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## NCRCrow (4 Feb 2005)

and magically break down......for 5 days or more


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## Inch (4 Feb 2005)

Navalsnpr said:
			
		

> Inch.... good speculation...
> 
> Maybe the aircraft was on the way in to pick up a part for the ship?? Who knows....



Yep, could be, as I said, sometimes you need an "emergency" in order to get higher limits for flights. I'm not DDL qual'd yet so I don't know what kind of sea states you're limited to or other embarked limits, but there are other examples such as wind limits for engaging the rotor (making it turn after starting both engines). Max wind under normal conditions is 45kts, we can engage in 55kt winds for operational reasons, and 60kt winds under emergency conditions.



			
				NCRCrow said:
			
		

> and magically break down......for 5 days or more



Shit, the word's out, you got our number!  ;D


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## Strike (4 Feb 2005)

NCRCrow said:
			
		

> and magically break down......for 5 days or more



That's just cruel... ;D

Not to split hairs though (okay, I'm just trying to get people going), but ship to hospital transpo probably would qualify as a CASEVAC.

Turn pot, Turn.

Inch,
Sorry you're feeling crummy.   Not like you're speeding away on your OTU anyway.    >


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## Inch (4 Feb 2005)

Strike said:
			
		

> Inch,
> Sorry you're feeling crummy.   Not like you're speeding away on your OTU anyway.    >



Thanks, but the magical servicing fairy put 3 Sea Kings to sea and 3 serviceable on the Wing.  So while the weather was good and we had serviceable helos, I was sick and missed out on 3 X's this week.


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## SeaKingTacco (4 Feb 2005)

> Not to split hairs though (okay, I'm just trying to get people going), but ship to hospital transpo probably would qualify as a CASEVAC.



True, but we change the C/S of the aircraft to "MEDEVAC 4XX" in those cases, so the term sticks.

With the hauldown system onboard a frigate, a Sea King can launch and recover to the following limits of ship motion:

Day- 4 degrees pitch, 25 degrees roll

Night- 4 degrees pitch, 20 degrees roll

For those of you who have not experienced 25 degrees of roll at sea, it is ALOT.   I've only seen 25 degrees once or twice while strapped on deck turning and burning, usually while the ship was turning onto the flying course and got caught by a wave.   To me, it felt like we were going over the side- the beartrap held, just like it was designed to.

A frigate is actually pretty stable, even in rough seas.   The deck pitch rarely reaches 4 degrees.   The ship will always stabilize for a few seconds, even in the worst sea-state (called the "steady period"), which is when we launch or recover.

Nothing more fun in the CF than flying from a ship (sigh...)


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## NCRCrow (4 Feb 2005)

Sea King Politician Story:

I seem to remember the MND (93-94 timeframe) arriving in a American SeaHawk onboard HMCS Iroquois during OP Sharp Guard(94). He thought he was on Athabaskan and had to be reminded by a personal aid of what ship he was on.

He did the politician's speech and obligatory tour had lunch with the Admiral and whisked away while two good birds were sat in the barn.(Whats wrong with our helos, the senior maintainer asked)

The worst was yet to come, just after the Sea Hawk left(along w/ the MND), the teletype in the CCR rang off a pay freeze for the forces was imposed and banning the sale of cigarettes onboard HMCS ships.
(We were doing 21 day Adriatic Patrols.)

Our CO (Cdr Edmunds) was and is an *outstanding officer * and promptly sent the RHIB ashore with a cigarette carton list with peoples personal orders. The RHIB returned bristling with Davidoff's and Chesterfields and happy sailors onboard especially the cooks and stokers.

We joked later how the messages and the departure of the MND almost coincided perfectly.

Scandal after scandal broke and the CF almost never recovered. 

Politics and the Sea Kings . The Legacy of the 90's and mid way in the new millennium.


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## Navalsnpr (4 Feb 2005)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> For those of you who have not experienced 25 degrees of roll at sea, it is ALOT.   I've only seen 25 degrees once or twice while strapped on deck turning and burning



I think we ended up with one roll of 36-38 degrees on STJ. All the furnature in the mess ended up on the port side and one lad ended up with a broken leg.

I was really glad that I had my seatbelt on!!

Normally the guys will pencil the date in on the roll indicator on the bridge if they achieve a really good roll!!


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## Sam69 (5 Feb 2005)

NCRCrow said:
			
		

> and magically break down......for 5 days or more



Whenever I would suggest to the CO of IROQUOIS that we needed to go ashore for whatever reason (parts, training, MEDEVAC, etc), he would always give me a wry look and tell me that he was sending the Buffer back to make sure we didn't take golf clubs, credit cards, or toothbrushes along. And then he would approve the trip, still smiling.

I don't know why the MEDEVAC of a sailor makes such news, we've always been quick to run someone ashore if the option was there and there was any doubt to their condition. Just look at the case of CHICOUTIMI and Chris Saunders, you never know when what seems to be a manageable situation can go pear shaped in a hurry. Always best to have the hairy bag in a full service hospital when that happens. 

Over the years, I've MEDEVACed a fair share of people for various reasons including concussions, crushed digits, chest pains, anaphylactic shock (don't eat the chowdah if you are allergic to shellfish), and one poor guy who got crushed in the gun mount on FRASER. I even flew a guy ashore once when I was in worse need of an evac (long story). None of these cases ever raised a hint of media attention. But we missed one call (chest pains) once because our helo was down so a Brit helo took the guy off and it was in the papers the next day. The lesson? Never get sick on a slow news day.

FWIW, the CASEVAC distinction is made in Army doctrine but I've never seen CASEVAC/MEDEVAC differentiated in Navy doctrine. If we were to follow Army doctrine, our flights would be more correctly called "CASEVACs."

Also, if we are telling sea stories, I've been on deck at 31 degrees of roll and 7 degrees of pitch (steamer limits were 9 and 31) and seen 47 on the inclinometer while in a storm in NIPIGON. I know a few guys who were out during the Ocean Ranger disaster (ASSINIBOINE?) who said they say over 50. I find that anything over 10 makes it hard to sleep but a gentle 3-4 degree pitch rocks me to sleep everytime!

Get better Inch!


Sam


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## navydrill (17 Feb 2005)

"*For those of you who have not experienced 25 degrees of roll at sea, it is ALOT.  I've only seen 25 degrees once or twice while strapped on deck turning and burning, usually while the ship was turning onto the flying course and got caught by a wave.  To me, it felt like we were going over the side- the beartrap held, just like it was designed to.*"
only once or twice gotta get me on one of those things we do 45 
degrees on a regular basis.


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