# Widely spread misconception - Mixing military inform with civilian clothing -Tee



## underjeep (9 Feb 2012)

Multiple times I have been told I am not allowed to wear my issued green t-shirt as clothing during PT, usually by power hungry staff god bless them.  So whats the deal is it allowed or not, because this is the information I could find.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/38148605/Canadian-Forces-Dress-Instructions-Instructions-Sur-La-Tenue-Des-Forces-Canadiennes
Page 2-1-11    Point 47.
Here's a picture for lazy people - http://i.imgur.com/vVJHr.jpg

They keep saying that it is a chargeable offense, I couldn't find anything saying that it is it in the QR&O's about this though.

I feel like respectfully saying, please try and charge me because I want to know where the rule is when they read out the charge on my parade.
 It's a green t-shirt, i can buy one that looks exactly the same and that would make it ok?

Anyways if you guys have any information about this issue please share, because I've only heard just about everyone say its a chargeable offense without backing it up, and yes I'm only referring to the green t-shirt.
Take care everyone.


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## lethalLemon (9 Feb 2012)

Well, they could charge you under the catch-all charge that is used for anything that's not specifically defined.

A.K.A.

"Conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline"

As seen here: http://www.dnd.ca/somalia/vol5/v5c40de.htm (Not an official CF or DND website, also, these are from Somalia)



> *RANK:*Sgt
> *CHARGES:*
> 
> i. Disobeyed a lawful command of a superior officer (83 NDA)
> ...



*Edit to add:* But then again, it's a t-shirt, and a green one at that, being used for PT for the purpose of maintaining fitness for service so...  ???


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## underjeep (9 Feb 2012)

From your example, it's only wrong for me the wear the green t-shirt because they told me to take it off because they think its wrong to wear it.
..... It's only wrong because they told me to take it off so they can charge me under something else, not charging for the actual green t-shirt.  Ridiculous, but everything in the army is so can't complain.


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## lethalLemon (9 Feb 2012)

underjeep said:
			
		

> From your example, it's only wrong for me the wear the green t-shirt because they told me to take it off because they think its wrong to wear it.
> ..... It's only wrong because they told me to take it off so they can charge me under something else, not charging for the actual green t-shirt.  Ridiculous, but everything in the army is so can't complain.



Like I said, it's complex. But given that "X" said to remove "Y". You could be charged under 83 NDA for not obeying by "X", but also under 129 NDA because you did not remove "Y".

If that makes sense.

I'm sure that someone with more experience will shed some light on this issue.


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## q_1966 (9 Feb 2012)

What if you were to private purchase a surplus OD t-shirt, and provide said reciept >

A Private purchase OD long sleeve shirt or short sleeve with a maple leaf or Cdn flag etc should be fine.


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## aesop081 (9 Feb 2012)

underjeep said:
			
		

> usually by power hungry staff god bless them.



Orders that are usually resisted by barrack-room-lawyer privates who think they know better.

Everyone that tells you to do something that you don't like is power hungry.......... :


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## PMedMoe (9 Feb 2012)

I'm betting what's at issue here is more than just a green t-shirt if you're getting this worried or worked up about it.  Just wear a different t-shirt, FFS.   :


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## Rheostatic (9 Feb 2012)

Just wear an issued grey t-shirt from Logistik. That's what they're for.


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## Jimmy_D (9 Feb 2012)

Or get a unit PT shirt.


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## Wookilar (9 Feb 2012)

Certain schools make it mandatory to wear green shirts, most often mixed with civi shorts/track pants, for unit PT. I see it all the time in the gym, so I can't imagine that in and of itself that wearing a green t-shirt is a chargeable offence. I'm sure the Base and respective school RSM's would be having a parade every day if that was the case cause we all love a good (charge) parade.  ;D

However, I have to agree with above. Regardless if your course staff is power tripping or not, they are course staff, you are on course and have been given and order. It may suck a bit, but seriously? This is what you want to fight? There are far more important things to fight about than the colour of your shirt. ESPECIALLY while on course.

Wook


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## underjeep (9 Feb 2012)

lethalLemon said:
			
		

> Like I said, it's complex. But given that "X" said to remove "Y". You could be charged under 83 NDA for not obeying by "X", but also under 129 NDA because you did not remove "Y".
> 
> If that makes sense.
> 
> I'm sure that someone with more experience will shed some light on this issue.



I'm basically being charged because the staff is misinformed and my reluctance to change a shirt that is acceptable.  Under your baseball cap example. the Sgt should have been charged with both or none otherwise it's teaching you should follow every order even if you think its wrong which can be good or *bad* under different scenarios (take that trench private!! or *kill those innocent civilians private!!*)

What If I was properly wearing my uniform and the staff member told me to take off my beret and wear a baseball cap.  Now I can be charged under 83 of the NDA for not changing my beret into a baseball cap, or charged under 129 NDA for changing my beret into a baseball cap.  There's nothing different in the literature except under this example, the only thing preventing me from being charged would be how ridiculous the order is, and I'm saying making someone change out of a green t-shirt is ridiculous as well.


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## Tow Tripod (9 Feb 2012)

Underjeep is off to a very long career! Fight the Power!


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## OldSolduer (9 Feb 2012)

underjeep said:
			
		

> I'm basically being charged because the staff is misinformed and my reluctance to change a shirt that is acceptable.  Under your baseball cap example. the Sgt should have been charged with both or none otherwise it's teaching you should follow every order even if you think its wrong which can be good or *bad* under different scenarios (take that trench private!! or *kill those innocent civilians private!!*)
> 
> What If I was properly wearing my uniform and the staff member told me to take off my beret and wear a baseball cap.  Now I can be charged under 83 of the NDA for not changing my beret into a baseball cap, or charged under 129 NDA for changing my beret into a baseball cap.  There's nothing different in the literature except under this example, the only thing preventing me from being charged would be how ridiculous the order is, and I'm saying making someone change out of a green t-shirt is ridiculous as well.



OK enough. I.... we get it.

The course staff, who have been empowered by the Commanding Officer can do this. Consider it an ORDER from your CO.

Now if I were your Pl WO or CSM and one of my NCOs asked me to have a "chat" with you it would be a very one way conversation...and you'd be doing the listening.

Put on a different T shirt. Do as your ORDERED to. If you don't like taking orders......you know what to do I would think.




			
				Tow Tripod said:
			
		

> Underjeep is off to a very long career! Fight the Power!




Oh this should be a good one! The Man is oppressing him!!  ;D


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## Wookilar (9 Feb 2012)

underjeep said:
			
		

> I'm basically being charged because the staff is misinformed and my reluctance to change a shirt that is acceptable.  Under your baseball cap example. the Sgt should have been charged with both or none otherwise it's teaching you should follow every order even if you think its wrong which can be good or *bad* under different scenarios (take that trench private!! or *kill those innocent civilians private!!*)
> 
> What If I was properly wearing my uniform and the staff member told me to take off my beret and wear a baseball cap.  Now I can be charged under 83 of the NDA for not changing my beret into a baseball cap, or charged under 129 NDA for changing my beret into a baseball cap.  There's nothing different in the literature except under this example, the only thing preventing me from being charged would be how ridiculous the order is, and I'm saying making someone change out of a green t-shirt is ridiculous as well.



Umm first off, where the heck to I begin???

You have to learn the difference between an order you do not like and an ILLEGAL order. Ordered to kill unarmed (the term "innocent" can be used in a variety of ways) civilians is illegal. Full stop.

Ordered to change your shirt/hat/mukluks = legal. There may be ramifications for the staff if say, while on winter warfare you were ordered to change your dry mukluks for wet combat boots or something similar, but something like your colour of PT strip is perfectly legal.

You will be instructed/ordered to do a many many "stupid" things in your military career. Learn to roll with the small stuff. This is small stuff.

Wook


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## Scott (9 Feb 2012)

This is your hill to die on? A frigging t-shirt?

Grow up. Or go work at Burger King...but they likely have uniform rules, too. :nod:


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## PuckChaser (9 Feb 2012)

Rheostatic said:
			
		

> Just wear an issued grey t-shirt from Logistik. That's what they're for.



Unless you're on BMQ you can't order them anymore. My unit used to use those as our PT shirt, until they made the change.

The green shirt, probably not gonna stick like the reference someone posted and summary trial results. What will stick is the Disobey a lawful command, which was "You will not wear a green t-shirt for PT". Don't like it? Put in a VR memo. 

Underjeep: You mentioned "staff" multiple times. Which means you're probably at a school, and probably a Private. Who is misinformed, the staff who have combined decades of experience in the CF, or your 6 weeks as a barrack room lawyer? Some rules in the CF don't make a whole whack of sense, but when you try to buck against the system, the system bucks back. Seriously, consider picking your battles. Is it worth getting marked as insubordinate over a damn T-shirt because you're too cheap to go to Walmart and buy one for 10 bucks?


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## jeffb (9 Feb 2012)

underjeep said:
			
		

> I'm basically being charged because the staff is misinformed and my reluctance to change a shirt that is acceptable.  Under your baseball cap example. the Sgt should have been charged with both or none otherwise it's teaching you should follow every order even if you think its wrong which can be good or *bad* under different scenarios (take that trench private!! or *kill those innocent civilians private!!*)



It has nothing to do with what you think is wrong. The standard is "manifestly unlawful". Unless an order is manifestly unlawful you are legally bound to carry it out. There are numerous reasons why your staff might have told you to change your T-shirt that are perfect reasonable. Perhaps they wanted everyone to look the same, you know, like a uniform? At the end of the day, it doesn't matter to you what their reasons are, the only reason you should need is that you were told to do it and it was not manifestly unlawful. 

You are not getting charged because of your t-shirt. I think you missed the boat here. Based on your story, you are getting charged for being insubordinate. Realize that and this may turn into a good lesson for you for what would otherwise be a very short career in the CF. 

Best of luck.


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## underjeep (9 Feb 2012)

Basically what I'm hearing is that the military law is all screwed up but try and get along in this wacky environment because the little guy can't win like he can in civilian courts.

But cmon I know my first point was weak you don't have to go straw man fallacy on it, how about addressing my second point where you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Anyways I'm going to make it a point of educating people of power in the future so they don't have to issue ridiculous orders, that's my cause.  How about I get a custom made green t-shirt with point 47 of the Canadian-Forces-Dress-Instructions-Instructions-Sur-La-Tenue-Des-Forces-Canadiennes printed on the back of it?


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## Scott (9 Feb 2012)

:facepalm:


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## PuckChaser (9 Feb 2012)

underjeep said:
			
		

> Basically what I'm hearing is that the military law is all screwed up but try and get along in this wacky environment because the little guy can't win like he can in civilian courts.



The little guy can definitely win in military courts, just not when he's completely and utterly wrong. The fact that you can't comprehend that you are required to follow orders unless they are "manifestly unlawful" (as someone stated earlier) means that you just aren't quite cut out for the CF. I'd go ahead and release now, before you land yourself in trouble and are discharged with a not-so-nice release item that may prevent you from getting gainful civilian employment.


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## BDTyre (9 Feb 2012)

I neglected to bring a PT shirt on a 3 week ex. I did one or two sessions of PT in a green t-shirt and grey, non-descript sweat pants before my section commander called me out on it. When I told him I didn't have a PT shirt with me, he told me I can either a) not do PT (we had no mandatory PT) or b) continue wearing my green tee as long as I wore something over it. So I went through the next three weeks doing PT with a sweatshirt on...in Wainwright...in the summer.


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## captloadie (9 Feb 2012)

underjeep said:
			
		

> Basically what I'm hearing is that the military law is all screwed up but try and get along in this wacky environment because the little guy can't win like he can in civilian courts.
> 
> But cmon I know my first point was weak you don't have to go straw man fallacy on it, how about addressing my second point where you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.
> 
> Anyways I'm going to make it a point of educating people of power in the future so they don't have to issue ridiculous orders, that's my cause.  How about I get a custom made green t-shirt with point 47 of the Canadian-Forces-Dress-Instructions-Instructions-Sur-La-Tenue-Des-Forces-Canadiennes printed on the back of it?


Until this last post, I kind of felt sorry for you. I'd also wonder why, maybe even out loud why I couldn't wear a green t-shirt with my civvy shorts, especially whenever everyone else in the gym has one on. Maybe the instructor would have said it was because you only have three, and you don't have time to do laundry everyday to have one to wear in uniform, one to wear in PT strip, and one for your closet. Maybe he'd say he hates seeing the pit stains all the green shirts get, and he's doing his part to eliminate them from public sight. Who knows.

But now I see that you are really just a bored trouble maker who will likely last not much longer in this wonderful organization we have going.

Best of luck in your next career.


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## Scott (9 Feb 2012)

I'm betting it's just a troll.


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## underjeep (9 Feb 2012)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> The little guy can definitely win in military courts, just not when he's completely and utterly wrong. The fact that you can't comprehend that you are required to follow orders unless they are "manifestly unlawful" (as someone stated earlier) means that you just aren't quite cut out for the CF. I'd go ahead and release now, before you land yourself in trouble and are discharged with a not-so-nice release item that may prevent you from getting gainful civilian employment.



I posted above you this "But cmon I know my first point was weak you don't have to go straw man fallacy on it, how about addressing my second point where you are damned if you do and damned if you don't."

How about you read my argument instead of posting just what you want to post?  You aren't cut out for being being in the CF if you can't read, you should go ahead and release.  How does that feel when I say it?
Thanks though for the other responses guys.  My favorite being  :facepalm: because one of the guys that gave me that exact expression failed the course.


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## Scott (9 Feb 2012)

Yep, troll.

underjeep,

You've gotten about the range of responses you are gong to from this forum. I don't see anyone coming to "help" you any more than they already have. Give it a rest now, okay? And don't troll any further or we'll introduce you to this site's rules, k?

Scott
Staff


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## PuckChaser (9 Feb 2012)

underjeep said:
			
		

> How about you read my argument instead of posting just what you want to post?  You aren't cut out for being being in the CF if you can't read, you should go ahead and release.  How does that feel when I say it?
> Thanks though for the other responses guys.  My favorite being  :facepalm: because one of the guys that gave me that exact expression failed the course.



Considering I have a decade of experience in the CF, and the other people tell you that you're an idiot have significantly more than that probably means I know more of how the CF works than you. But hey, go ahead and fight the good fight. I'll enjoy reading your various charge reports on the CF JAG website.


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## jeffb (9 Feb 2012)

> What If I was properly wearing my uniform and the staff member told me to take off my beret and wear a baseball cap.  Now I can be charged under 83 of the NDA for not changing my beret into a baseball cap, or charged under 129 NDA for changing my beret into a baseball cap.  There's nothing different in the literature except under this example, the only thing preventing me from being charged would be how ridiculous the order is, and I'm saying making someone change out of a green t-shirt is ridiculous as well.



No, you would not be charged and there is no catch-22 type scenario here. If your chain of command orders you to wear a baseball cap instead of your beret you have to do it. It is not a manifestly unlawful order and your defence to any charge would be "I was following the orders of...". If there order did not make sense or violated some other regulation, such as CF Dress Regulations, then they will answer to that to their superiors, not you. Your job is to follow orders unless they are manifestly unlawful. Manifestly unlawful is a very high standard which your t-shirt or hat choice scenarios do not meet.


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## Robert0288 (9 Feb 2012)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Unless you're on BMQ you can't order them anymore. My unit used to use those as our PT shirt, until they made the change.



I just ordered and picked up 5 pairs from clothing 1 month ago.


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## underjeep (9 Feb 2012)

This forum isn't very forgiving to dissenting opinions, but ok, you guys win.  I'll get my non issued PT shirt when I go into town and get that custom shirt made.  Thanks for the healthy argument guys, I appreciate it and no hard feelings.


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## Scott (9 Feb 2012)

underjeep said:
			
		

> This forum isn't very forgiving to dissenting opinions, but ok, you guys win.  I'll get my non issued PT shirt when I go into town and get that custom shirt made.  Thanks for the healthy argument guys, I appreciate it and no hard feelings.



This forum isn't very forgiving to stupidity, there's a difference between that and a dissenting opinion. There's loads of people who do not agree here, the thing is what the actual disagreement is about.

T-shirts? You can't honestly tell me you think this is of high importance. 

It all screams "admin burden" to me.


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## Tow Tripod (9 Feb 2012)

I order you to fall on a rubber bayonet!


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## OldSolduer (9 Feb 2012)

Scott said:
			
		

> It all screams "admin burden" to me.



Nothing a good session of "counselling" can take care of.


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## Scott (9 Feb 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Nothing a good session of "counselling" can take care of.



What, and infringe on its rights? Surely you jest.

rancing:


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## the 48th regulator (9 Feb 2012)

underjeep said:
			
		

> Anyways I'm going to make it a point of educating people of power in the future so they don't have to issue ridiculous orders, that's my cause.  How about I get a custom made green t-shirt with point 47 of the Canadian-Forces-Dress-Instructions-Instructions-Sur-La-Tenue-Des-Forces-Canadiennes printed on the back of it?



Word, Stay strong my brother and don't let the man get you doing for wearing his T-shirt!!








Underjeep's guide to fighting the sytem


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## aesop081 (9 Feb 2012)

underjeep said:
			
		

> I'm going to make it a point of educating people of power



Oh, i wish i could see you doing that. It didn't work out well for the last guy who tried that with me.



> issue ridiculous orders,



Care to tell us what that order was, i have yet to see it in your posts.


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## Old and Tired (9 Feb 2012)

Underjeep

From a BMQ CRSE WO perspective, as well as SME and SNR INSTR on a great many other courses, I can tell you one thing for certain; if you were to wear your proposed custom T-Shirt after all that has preceded it, order you to remove it. If you failed to do that I would recommend to my Tp Comd that you be charged yet again.

It's one thing to fight a battle and loose, but quite another to fight the battle, loose then invite another defeat for the same thing or worse.  This I can say from personal experience having once been told I had a poor (actually really really bad) attitude so I promptly had a T-Shirt made that I don't have an attitude, It's a personality.  Trust me, you don't need that kind of label.


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## dogger1936 (9 Feb 2012)

Theres a time to make a stand for injustice.....a green t shirt is not one of those times!!

If my staff told me to wear lipstick I would have. And done a dam good job putting it on too! ;D

In all seriousness I can see your point for not wearing the green shirt; as I have seen many others doing so on courses. However for the next X amount of years you will be doing ton's of things you dislike or don't make sense. Aside from suggesting routes to improve it later in your career as a NCM; don't expect to lead change that much overall.

A charge on a crse for 129 is not worth changing a t-shirt. 

I have taught on many crses in my career and if I knew then what I know now....someone telling you where to be and when/ what to wear...life sure was simple as a Pte!


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## underjeep (9 Feb 2012)

thanks for the last 2 posts, i appreciate it


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## Pusser (9 Feb 2012)

underjeep said:
			
		

> This forum isn't very forgiving to dissenting opinions, but ok, you guys win.  I'll get my non issued PT shirt when I go into town and get that custom shirt made.  Thanks for the healthy argument guys, I appreciate it and no hard feelings.



I disagree.  Dissenting opinions that are well-thought and presented logically, with good supporting arguments are indeed respected here.  However, one of the realities of life in general (and not just in the military) is that there is always a heirarchy and decisions are made at higher levels that don't make sense at lower levels.  This doesn't mean that the issues raised at the lower levels are wrong or are being ignored.  It simply means that the higher level authority has (hopefully) taken other things into account when making his/her decision and has issued instructions, which (hopefully) provide the best overall course of action.  Get used to it.  This is how a heirarchy works.  

Over the years (almost 30 of them in the CF in fact), I have been in many situations where my advice has been followed and in other cases ignored.  The results have been mixed.  Most, but not all of the time, when my advice has been followed, things have turned out as expected.  Sometimes, when my advice has not been followed (note I didn't say ignored), things have gone south.  On other occasions, it has proved fortunate in retrospect that my advice was not followed.  My point is that leadership is a burden as one often has to take conflicting advice into account and make a decision.  Never take it personally that your advice seems to have been ignored.  Your boss may have a different picture of the situation than you do and act accordingly.  Since he/she is the one reponsible for the outcome, that is his/her perogative.

I get a little uptight when folks talk about "ridiculous rules."  There are no ridiculous or stupid rules.  Every rule has a reason.  It was put in place at some point to deal with some situation.  Does this make it sacred, to be followed without question and never changed thereafter?  No, of course not, but be very carefull about labeling a rule as stupid or outdated unless you fully understand the reason it was there in the first place.  A rule may very well be in need of amendment or abolition, but before you can do that, you need to be absolutely positive  that the original reason for the rule has also changed.  Just as there are many examples of rules that need to be changed, there are also rules that have been changed, only to cause more problems than the change was supposed to solve, simply because the folks pushing for change did not understand why the rule was there in the first place.

Now, in your case in particular.  I happen to agree that you should be able to wear your green t-shirt for PT.  I don't understand why you want to because I think it's ugly, but I don't see any reason why you shouldn't be able to.  However, I'm not your course staff and I don't know all the details.  There may be very good reasons why they want you to dress a certain way, but that is THEIR perogative and if you wish to have a successful career in the CF, you need to understand that.  Just because the Dress Regulations permit what you want doesn't mean that the Chain of Command cannot place an additional restriction on your situation.  Yes, this is allowed.  What they are doing does not contravene the Dress Regulations.  The Chain of Command sets dress policy at the appropriate level.  Guess what happens if they tell you to fall in on parade with bathing suits and snowshoes?

My advice to you in dealing with this is to stop raging against the machine and do your best to comply with your staff's direction.  What they are asking of you is not unreasonable.  Trying to mock them with custom t-shirts with provocative statements won't end well for you.  The best way to fix this is to keep your nose clean, be best course candidate you can be, excel in your training, get promoted and then one day come back as an instructor.  When you are on staff, you can then make the changes you see fit - or, you might realize by then that your instructors were right all along....  

When I was 20, I thought my father was an idiot.  When I turned 25, I was amazed at how much he had learned in just five years.  (apologies to Mark Twain)


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## PuckChaser (9 Feb 2012)

Robert0288 said:
			
		

> I just ordered and picked up 5 pairs from clothing 1 month ago.



They must be off the Logistik site and only avail via clothing then. I just checked and I can order a Yukon hat but no t-shirts.


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## Loachman (9 Feb 2012)

underjeep said:
			
		

> This forum isn't very forgiving to dissenting opinions



Do you expect your DS to be otherwise?



			
				underjeep said:
			
		

> ok, you guys win.



As will your DS.

Welcome to reality.


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## Danjanou (10 Feb 2012)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> They must be off the Logistik site and only avail via clothing then. I just checked and I can order a Yukon hat but no t-shirts.



Problem solved then, get and wear a Yukon Hat on P/T  8)


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