# Question about Reserve MARS CT to Reg F MARS



## ltmaverick25 (21 Oct 2008)

If a MARS Officer in the reserves has completed all 4 phases of training, completed consolidation and aquired his ticket and is a SLt and decides to transfer to the reg force will all the training and ticket be transfered as well?  Would one have to repeat any of the training, or receive a reduction in rank ect...?  If applicable, how is seniority treated?

Also, I keep hearing rumours that Reg F MARS officers are pretty vicious with each other, anyone know if there is any truth to that?


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## dapaterson (21 Oct 2008)

The short answer to all questions about CTs is - it depends.

Depends where and when you did your training.  How long ago.  Other quals you have.  Other experience you have.

All those go into a magic hopper, get blended together, and out pops your offer.

Before applying, make sure your pers file (and especially your MPRR) is up to date.  If your MPRR doesn't show a qualification, the people assessing your file won't know about it.  Many problems are caused by incomplete records - make sure yours are up-to-date.  (Did I repeat it enough?)


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## dimsum (21 Oct 2008)

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> If a MARS Officer in the reserves has completed all 4 phases of training, completed consolidation and aquired his ticket and is a SLt and decides to transfer to the reg force will all the training and ticket be transfered as well?  Would one have to repeat any of the training, or receive a reduction in rank ect...?  If applicable, how is seniority treated?



Your MARS 4 will transfer over, as well as any courses that would normally be transferred (Maritime Warfare Basic, etc.)  As for rank, it's been a while since anyone I know CT'd but it has been that you would transfer over as your current rank and IPC level.  That could be different now.


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## Monsoon (21 Oct 2008)

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> If a MARS Officer in the reserves has completed all 4 phases of training, completed consolidation and aquired his ticket and is a SLt and decides to transfer to the reg force will all the training and ticket be transfered as well?  Would one have to repeat any of the training, or receive a reduction in rank ect...?  If applicable, how is seniority treated?


You (oops, I mean "he") would not have to redo any training, but would have to get a watchkeeping and OOD endorsement for one of the heavies, collectively referred to as the CofC II qualification that every reg force MARS type does after MARS IV. In the reg force this is what having a BWK and OOD qual for a minor warship is to a reservist. You can expect it to take up to a year, depending on how much your ship is sailing. Generally, experienced reservists are brought over at their rank and class C IPC (i.e. the IPC based on their actual days worked, as opposed to the class A/B IPC based on the number of years in), but this may not be the case for brand-spankin' new subbies (reg force types get it after their CofC II). There are enough people doing it these days that you should be able to track someone down at VENTURE and find out what the deal is.



> Also, I keep hearing rumours that Reg F MARS officers are pretty vicious with each other, anyone know if there is any truth to that?


I haven't sailed on a heavy, but from what I can tell the wardrooms seem friendly enough. Having a larger pool of officers creates more of a gap between the CO/XO and the junior subs, though. It's not like reserve MARS types are great gems.


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## FSTO (21 Oct 2008)

Vicious? Us? Naw were all pussycats. (as we sharpen our claws). Lets just say that certain folks don't mind stepping on a few toes and backs to get ahead. Probably now worse than in any other profession but since we are the only ones who can get command of a ship (vice the NTO's and Sea Log Officers) the competition within the MARS world is pretty cutthroat. And if you do not conform to the collective you are sent off to be Int, Log or PAFO pretty quick. (I kid, I kid) ;D


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## ltmaverick25 (22 Oct 2008)

Thanks for the info.  What about age?  Is this a reg force career that is feasible for someone starting at the age of 31?  There is an ex reg force MARS officer at my unit that is of the opinion that I would have trouble obtaining a senior rank later on down the line because I would be getting passed over for the ORO course in favor of younger officers that had more years of service left ect...  Any thoughts on this?


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## Snakedoc (22 Oct 2008)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Your MARS 4 will transfer over, as well as any courses that would normally be transferred (Maritime Warfare Basic, etc.)  As for rank, it's been a while since anyone I know CT'd but it has been that you would transfer over as your current rank and IPC level.  That could be different now.



I'm curious to know specifically which courses that reservists are eligible for after MARS IV are transferable to the reg force?  FNO, Maritime Warfare Basic, STD....any others to add?

Also, have any of you known of cases of newly promoted reserve MARS Lt(N)'s with limited sea time prior to promotion being able to keep their rank upon CT to the regs?  Do any of you know what would happen in that circumstance?

Cheers,
Snakedoc


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## Sailorwest (22 Oct 2008)

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> Thanks for the info.  What about age?  Is this a reg force career that is feasible for someone starting at the age of 31?  There is an ex reg force MARS officer at my unit that is of the opinion that I would have trouble obtaining a senior rank later on down the line because I would be getting passed over for the ORO course in favor of younger officers that had more years of service left ect...  Any thoughts on this?


All MARS officer eat their young. That is in the recruiting documents I thought. 
The only issue in joining at this age is attaining command. The Navy tend to see guys going to command in a heavy getting there by the time they are 40 or so. You may have a tough time fitting in your C of C II, D-level course and posting, Language training (if required), ORO course (year long) and posting and then an XO posting in the next 9 years.  I had the understanding that the ORO is largely loaded by merit so I don't think age would be a limiting factor on its own. It kind of depends on your objectives in joining. Getting past the 2 1/2 rank is difficult to impossible without command but is not without it's own level of satisfaction. Kind of depends what you want.


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## ltmaverick25 (22 Oct 2008)

Ideally im looking to go all the way with this and obtain a command and maybe beyond.  But I am worried about the age issue.  How hard and fast of a rule is it that you need to hit command by age 40?  Whats wrong with hitting it in your late 40s for example?  I was originally under the impression that MARS was severely short handed so the trade was wide open.


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## Sailorwest (22 Oct 2008)

It is quite short handed at the Lt level. That may translate into changes in that process down the road but it's hard to say where or when that might occur. Getting surface command is not an easy process and a lot of people drop out along the way.  I wouldn't say no but it is difficult to see that there would be much of a change with this.


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## drunknsubmrnr (22 Oct 2008)

You might want to look into boats. Age is less of an issue than competence there. 

How good are you at mental math? There's a lot of mental gymnastics in submarine service, but if you can do it you're WAY ahead of the game.


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## ltmaverick25 (22 Oct 2008)

I wouldnt quantify my mental math as strong at this point, but I also havent sat down and dedicated any time yet to developing it either so its too early to tell.  I just transfered into MARS last month as a Naval Cadet and am scheduled to start training in the summer with an IAP bypass.  We started going over things like CPA and DTR at the unit lines, and at first it was pretty intimidating, but after I spent some time working on it on my own it didnt seem so bad, so, I guess I will find out in Sept when I start MARS 3.

One of you mentioned that alot of guys drop out along the way.  What do you mean by that?  Do they release from the Navy, or just stop trying to hit command?

I really wish I would have done all of this sooner but I was too busy wasting 14 years in the army making the best out of a less then desirable situation...

The other issue I am facing is the timing of my component transfer.  Some say go right away, others say get MARS 4 done first and go in as skilled... Now this age thing is tossed into the equation!


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## Sailorwest (22 Oct 2008)

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> One of you mentioned that alot of guys drop out along the way.  What do you mean by that?  Do they release from the Navy, or just stop trying to hit command?


A little from col A and a little from col B. My MARS II had 20 or so guys to start and by the end of MARS V (am I dating myself?) less than 5 got a BWK. That is just through the training process. Becoming a qualified BWK is hard work, getting higher skill level (D level and OTO) is harder still, but command requires a different focus. It's a change in big picture mindset and not everyone can accomplish it. Writing command exams is not adequate preparation and yeah, guys just stop trying or get out because they realize it won't happen. There is the other issue lately that you can get qualified but get passed over and 'age out'. That's another incentive to quitting. 
There is another way, seeing as how you are just getting started as a reservist. MWS command is not limited by any of these requirements and there are much less demanding roads to command. It isn't as sexy as a heavy but it is achievable from where you are and in relatively short timeframe. I know a lot of guys who are post command experienced, and can be promted to Cdr. It depends on what you want to do.


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## ltmaverick25 (22 Oct 2008)

What do you mean by MWS?  

Can you elaborate on big picture?  In what sence are we talking about here?  I was an Int Op for a number of years in the army, looking at the bigger picture was always part of the spectrum, but im not sure if thats the same thing as you are describing.

Thanks again for all the input by the way.


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## Klinkaroo (22 Oct 2008)

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> What do you mean by MWS?



Just a guess Minor War Ship?

Maybe he is trying to say as a reserve MARS you might get command quicker and easier then on a heavy as a reg force.


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## Sailorwest (23 Oct 2008)

Klinkaroo said:
			
		

> Just a guess Minor War Ship?
> 
> Maybe he is trying to say as a reserve MARS you might get command quicker and easier then on a heavy as a reg force.



Exactly correct. The main difference between command of a surface ship and a minor warship is the scope of the role of this ship, the different level of complexity of the vessels and the experience needed to get there (not little issues, mind you). The thought process and mental approach to command are essentially the same. In the past, MWS command was one stepping stone to surface command but not so much anymore. I really don't know about whether the submarine command development process is quicker than MWS but it certainly would be more challenging.


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## ltmaverick25 (23 Oct 2008)

Am I correct in assuming that the path you are describing is exclusively a reservist path?  One thing that concerns me with that is the lack of guarenteed employment.  I realize the way things are now that may seem like a silly concern, but if I am devoting my life to this path, especially at this age I need to make sure its something I can do for the duration.

Also, any idea of pension comparisons.  I know they just brought in a new pension for the reserves but to be honest I dont know a thing about how it works, or how it compares to the reg force version.


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## Sailorwest (23 Oct 2008)

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> Am I correct in assuming that the path you are describing is exclusively a reservist path?  One thing that concerns me with that is the lack of guarenteed employment.  I realize the way things are now that may seem like a silly concern, but if I am devoting my life to this path, especially at this age I need to make sure its something I can do for the duration.
> 
> Also, any idea of pension comparisons.  I know they just brought in a new pension for the reserves but to be honest I dont know a thing about how it works, or how it compares to the reg force version.



That is certainly one of the risks of doing this. There are a lot of my friends who have worked a long time (with maybe short terms of non-military employment) but the employment isn't guaranteed. Word of caution. If you are not successful in your training in the reg force, your employment may also be terminated, unless you are willing to change career path. As for pensions, by and large that has been fixed. If you work full time, as a reservist, you will get the same pension as a member working in the reg force. I think the rule is 50 out of 60 months under Cl B or C contract, you would automatically be on the full time pension plan for the rest of your career. So long as you do 25 years of total service (reserve or reg force), you get a full pension. This may be covered in another forum topic under administration but I do not know.


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## ltmaverick25 (23 Oct 2008)

Ive done some poking around and havent found much, but my search skills arent the greatest either.

In my case, I have 14 years service, class A in the army reserves.  Does that mean that if at some point in my career, be it as a reservist or reg force I work a 50 out of 60 month period that the above 14 years will count towards that 25 year threshhold?


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## Sailorwest (23 Oct 2008)

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> Ive done some poking around and havent found much, but my search skills arent the greatest either.
> 
> In my case, I have 14 years service, class A in the army reserves.  Does that mean that if at some point in my career, be it as a reservist or reg force I work a 50 out of 60 month period that the above 14 years will count towards that 25 year threshhold?



http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/rfpp-rpfr/intro-eng.asp
You can get to this site from any internet connection and should explain some detail of the program. I am not familar with buy back into the reg force pension plan as it does not apply to me. Your Cl A service is determined by days of service times the rate of pay and a factor of 1.6 (I think). Your 14 years if it was largely Cl A, would be a significantly smaller number of years (depending on actual days worked) that would be counted into the buy back. You would have to fork over some cash to purchase that time. I did my determination based on 21 years as a resevist with periods of Cl A, B, and C service and came up with close to 7 years to apply to the pension. Now, I haven't bought that back yet but theoretically, once you do that, you could transfer that to a reg force pension once you meet the eligibility requirement. I am sure one of the elder brethern here will point us to the correct location of this information if it has been posted before.

http://forums.navy.ca/forums/threads/28418.0.html
Try this


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## Gus (2 Nov 2008)

Transferring over:
 - as mentioned, get the MPRR up to date
 - most junior officers, up to the Lt(N) rank, keep their rank.  What has to be done is based on experience - the more shipboard experience, the "less" has to be done on transfer.  Getting OOD and BWK are requirements for a new class of ship, regardless of component.  For example, someone who had never served in FFH, but is already OOD qualified, would have to re-qualify as OOD, but not the whole package rather a ship-famil and modified evaluation.  BWK, there are other considerations in a FF or DD or AOR, that MCDV don't do (missiles, helo ops, etc).  Remember, there is not "reserve BWK" and "reg force BWK", there are "MWS BWK" and "BWK", it just happens to be that these days reg force folks don't serve in Minor Warships, so they don't do MWS BWK.  On that vein, MCDV are not "reserve ships", they are regular force units that are crewed in most part by naval reservists.
 - achieving command: well, as 55 is the retirement age (don't get caught up in the 60 as retirement age, that is supposed to be temporary), everything is worked back from there.  So, to make CDS, a person would be CMS first, flag rank of several postings (including potentially a fleet commander), working in NDHQ, CO of a ship, working in NDHQ, XO of ship, working in a HQ (Ottawa, Esquimalt, or Halifax), ORO of a ship, sea-duty, qualifications etc. etc.  You can see that to add even just one or two years to each of these, they look to have someone in command by 40 (ish).  The five or six postings needed to get the CMS level requirements add up to 12 years, and that would make someone 52 (post command at 40) and give them 3 years as CDS; that's how the timeline is developed.  It's all based on reserving command for those persons who are considered likely to make it to the CMS then CDS levels.
 - pension: it is possible to work full-time in the reserves and get a full pension.  It is based on days of service, we frequently say 25 yrs, but it is 9000+ days (25x365) days of service.  What that means in practical terms is that is doesn't have to be all in a row, and all in one component.  Someone could have 4000 days as an army reservist, 1000 days as a naval reservist, and the remainder as reg force.  That's how the class A calculation would come in - by the way, someone who does only class A or doesn't qualifiy for the full-time pension (50 out of 60 months, full-time), gets pensionalbe service, but the calculations are different.


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## Cronicbny (29 Nov 2008)

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> I wouldnt quantify my mental math as strong at this point, but I also havent sat down and dedicated any time yet to developing it either so its too early to tell.  I just transfered into MARS last month as a Naval Cadet and am scheduled to start training in the summer with an IAP bypass.  We started going over things like CPA and DTR at the unit lines, and at first it was pretty intimidating, but after I spent some time working on it on my own it didnt seem so bad, so, I guess I will find out in Sept when I start MARS 3.
> 
> One of you mentioned that alot of guys drop out along the way.  What do you mean by that?  Do they release from the Navy, or just stop trying to hit command?
> 
> ...



Going in as skilled assumed a certain level of qualification. MARS IV is great, but a BWK makes all the difference in the world. Let me be blunt on a couple of facets:

1) Without a BWK you can transfer reg and you will remain an A/SLt... period. Unless you are granted a different rank through your past experience. (thats a different ball of wax... PM me if you want details)

2) WITH a BWK you will likely keep your rank as hamiltongs stated. What incentive you are granted has more to do with your experience and qualifications. (Not to mention Class B/C time)

3) ANY transferable qualifications you get in the reserves (MWBC etc) will never be erased, that said BOC (Reserve Basic Operations Course) is not NOC... 

4) At your age I would seriously reconsider any possibility of Command in the Regular Force. I just base that statement on the words of Commodore whats his name that runs personnel out of Ottawa... in fact his direct words were "How many of you are over 30? (hands went up) then forget about command". This was to an audience entirely made up of VENTURE students in NETPO/MARS III and MARS IV

5) As recent experience will show if you transfer to the regs as a post Reserve Navigator (IE Navigated - FNO qualified - for a MWS for a contract term) you will likely be bypassed your CofC II and NOC. Basically standing by for a post D-level course. 

In the end, every application is different. I hate to repeat what hamiltongs said, but it's true.... EVERY SITUATION IS DIFFERENT. 

My advice... do whatever you feel is right... with the exception of CRA, everything else is always subject to change.

IN ARDUA NITOR


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## ltmaverick25 (5 Feb 2009)

I was just reviewing this thread again and came up with another question.

What is the time in rank requirement for each subsequent rank and which specific courses need to be knocked off?  If possible, I would like to get an answer for both the reserve and the reg force stream.  I have done some poking around at my unit and gotten a few vague answers (we have alot of ASlt MARS but very few beyond that rank at the moment) and sadly, I rarely get DIN access.

So far, what I have been able to find out has been exclusive to the reserve side and stops at Lt(N).

For example, and this is assuming a DEO candidate...

BOTP = ASlt
NETPO, MARS 3 and 4 plus BWK =SLt
3 years in rank of SLt = Lt(N)

Is this correct?  If so, what happens after that.  What courses, appointments/postings and time in is required to hit the next rank?

As for the regular force, I am still hazy on this.  If someone can breakdown a specific time in rank requirement and courses/postings required for each rank that would be much appreciated.


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## kratz (5 Feb 2009)

ref: MARCORD 9-1, Annex B, page 5: Officer Career Progression-Promotion Eligability Requirements

The above ref is only through the DIN and lists the answers you are looking for NavRes DEO MARS Officers.  The MARCORD permits COs to promot Officers up to Lt(N) when they reach the pre-reqs, all promotions are based on merit. The pre-reqs for LCdr and higher are:

*DEO NavRes MARS Officers:*
NCdt: IAP/BOT until graduate from these courses
A/Slt: Backdated to enrollment once IAP/BOTP completed. NETPO, MARS 3, MARS 4, BWK and OOD
Slt:  Now MOSID qualified. 3 years in rank.
Lt(N): NROC, MWBC, 4 years in rank.
LCdr: JRCSC, 3 years in rank
Cdr: Comand of NRD, 3 years in rank


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## Snakedoc (5 Feb 2009)

For the naval reserve, SLt's require 3 years in rank and BOC mod 1 and 2 completed in order to be promoted to Lt(N).


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## Cronicbny (5 Feb 2009)

kratz said:
			
		

> ref: MARCORD 9-1, Annex B, page 5: Officer Career Progression-Promotion Eligability Requirements
> 
> The above ref is only through the DIN and lists the answers you are looking for NavRes DEO MARS Officers.  The MARCORD permits COs to promot Officers up to Lt(N) when they reach the pre-reqs, all promotions are based on merit. The pre-reqs for LCdr and higher are:
> 
> ...



thanks kratz, I was going to post that myself... some changes:

DEO

A/Slt: change to IAP/BOTP
SLt - change to MARS III, MARS IV, MWS BWK, OOD

RESO

NCdt - Nil req (obviously)
A/Slt - IAP/BOTP and MARS III
SLt - MARS IV, MWS BWK, OOD
Lt(N) - delete NROC add BOC 1 & 2, WDO
LCdr - Add COPS 1 & 2, I think we now delete JRCSC (or it is moved to Cdr prereq)
Cdr - Add Command of KINGSTON Class, SMW (I think)

The NAVRESORD covers this more completely though I don't have access to it now. Refer to the NAVRESORD for further info, esp. regarding COMMISSIONING PLANS FOR SERVING MEMBERS (CFR etc)


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## ltmaverick25 (6 Feb 2009)

Thanks guys,

Anyone have the progression plan for the reg force side?


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## Monsoon (6 Feb 2009)

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> Anyone have the progression plan for the reg force side?



For someone on the ROTP or DEO entry plan it's similar to the reserve progression up to Slt (though MOSID qualified includes CofC II qualification):

Lt(N) requires NOC; not sure if the OPDPs are still being done
LCdr generally requires a D-level qual and tour, and the ORO course and tour (though recently some have gotten it without ORO)
Cdr requires JCSP (the new staff college program) and an XO tour (though, again, maybe not if you perform well ashore)

And an amendment to Cronicbny's reserve model: JCSP (which has replaced JRCSC) is required for promotion to Cdr, not LCdr, and NRD command also serves as a pre-req for promotion to Cdr.


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## Snakedoc (6 Feb 2009)

Cronicbny said:
			
		

> thanks kratz, I was going to post that myself... some changes:
> 
> DEO
> 
> ...



You need WDO to be a Lt(N) in the RESO?  Is it the same (I would assume so) for DEO's?  I always thought it was only BOC 1 & 2, then 3 years in rank for Lt(N) RESO and DEO.


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## Monsoon (6 Feb 2009)

Snakedoc said:
			
		

> You need WDO to be a Lt(N) in the RESO?  Is it the same (I would assume so) for DEO's?  I always thought it was only BOC 1 & 2, then 3 years in rank for Lt(N) RESO and DEO.


That's actually true as well. I believe the WDO qual is outside of the career progression rubric.


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## ltmaverick25 (6 Feb 2009)

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> For someone on the ROTP or DEO entry plan it's similar to the reserve progression up to Slt (though MOSID qualified includes CofC II qualification):
> 
> Lt(N) requires NOC; not sure if the OPDPs are still being done
> LCdr generally requires a D-level qual and tour, and the ORO course and tour (though recently some have gotten it without ORO)
> ...



When you say CofC II Qual, what exactly is meant by this?  Is that the combination of a BWK and OOD on a heavy or is it something else?  Do you require the CofC II  for SLt or just the OOD part?


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## MARS (6 Feb 2009)

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> And an amendment to Cronicbny's reserve model: JCSP (which has replaced JRCSC) is required for promotion to Cdr, not LCdr, and NRD command also serves as a pre-req for promotion to Cdr.



An amendment to the amendment - I think:

NRD Command probably helps you to be competitive for Cdr promotion, but I don't believe it is a hard and fast pre-req, not for MARS at any rate.  There are numerous Cdrs out there who have not done a NRD tour or who did them following promotion to Cdr.  My last CO is an example.  IIRC - and won't be able to check until Monday - NRD Command is a MARS requirement for promotion to Capt(N).


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## Monsoon (6 Feb 2009)

MARS said:
			
		

> NRD Command probably helps you to be competitive for Cdr promotion, but I don't believe it is a hard and fast pre-req, not for MARS at any rate.  There are numerous Cdrs out there who have not done a NRD tour or who did them following promotion to Cdr.  My last CO is an example.  IIRC - and won't be able to check until Monday - NRD Command is a MARS requirement for promotion to Capt(N).



Ah - you may be right. But what I understood was that promotion to Cdr required command of "something" first - an NRD, a MWS or a PSU - and that this was a fairly recent policy change. It could just be a soft req though, like trying to make it to LCdr without being part I qualified.



			
				ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> When you say CofC II Qual, what exactly is meant by this?  Is that the combination of a BWK and OOD on a heavy or is it something else?  Do you require the CofC II  for SLt or just the OOD part?


It's a bit out of my lane, but I believe CofC II is just OOW and OOD qualified plus a general board on things related to those qualifications. I can't speak to the exact promotion criteria with much confidence, I'm afraid.


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## J_dog (8 Feb 2009)

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> When you say CofC II Qual, what exactly is meant by this?  Is that the combination of a BWK and OOD on a heavy or is it something else?  Do you require the CofC II  for SLt or just the OOD part?



Let me see if I can shed some light on the REG force side:

Slt - OOD and MARS IV qual

Lt(N) - The prerequisites are a BWK, OOD, and NOC (Naval Ops Course), and NOPQ Board. (OPME's are not req for NOPQ but you will most likely have all done before sit the board if you went the REG Force route through NOTC).

The CofC II qual has been renamed to NOPQ aka "The Lt(N) Board" – It stands for the Naval Officer Professional Qualification Board.  Potential candidates will have to face a panel of high-ranking Officers from different trades questioning them on their professional Naval knowledge(RoR, Naval Warfare Air/Surf/Sub, Air Ops, Naval history, Recce, Naval Ops, etc) and it can be a very intense board.

NOPQ is a REG Force MARS qual and is they only way to get your Lt(N) rank. If you fail the board then you do not get the Lt(N) rank, and will get about 2-3 attempts to pass the board and if you still can't pass the NOPQ board then you will no longer be a MARS Officer. It will be your ship's CO that sends you to the NOPQ board, so if the CO thinks you are not ready, you will not go.  The NOPQ board is difficult and requires a lot of studying to prepare for it.  You have 2 years from the completion of MARS IV to gain your NOPQ qual and Lt(N) rank...if you are falling behind in your BWK trg then a msg will go to the MARS career manager telling him why you are "not on track" and an extension will be added for your allotted time to sit the NOPQ board.  The worst NOPQ board I have seen is only 1 out of 8 people passing.  The NOPQ board is held on average about every 6 months.

When you pass your NOPQ board, you will consolidate for an additional 6 months on the Bridge before you are sent off on our D-level course. Your choices for D-level are: Navigator, AWWO, UWWO, IMD, SAC and the non-surface D-levels - Clearance Diving Officer and Sub Officer.  (Second D-level are DeckO or CommO)

When you complete your D-level course you will head back to sea for your D-Level tour for 1.5 - 2 years.  Then on completion of the D-level tour will get your first "shore posting". Or you can choose to stay at sea and to do a second D-Level as a Deck O or CommO.  (I completed my first D-level tour and then went Clearance Diving Officer as my second D-level).  Just to give you a reference I was 25 when I completed my first D-level...most DEO Guys are in their late 20's early 30's when they go through their first D-level.  There were a few people on my ship that wanted to go Sub's for their first D-level and were over the age of 30, were told they were too old and had to choose another D-Level, the CF wants their Sub CO’s young.

The next big step in your MARS career will be the ORO course.  Only the top 24 Lt(N) MARS that year will get selected for the course.  Selection is based you your D-level tour, PER's, Command Exams passed...etc...The ORO course is a year long and is very difficult, and the following tour at sea (around 2 years) as an ORO is even harder. 

LCdr - (For the Surface Ships) -  The fasted route for promotion to LCdr is the ORO course. You do not need the ORO course to be promoted to LCdr, however it will probably take you a real long time to get to LCdr if you don't go through the ORO route.  (By a long time I mean 15 years or more after your first D-level) Very few people get the LCdr rank without the ORO course.  Other considerations for the promotion are PERs, Second Lang, Command qual part 1 or 2, ORO tour, D-level tour, shore postings, OPME's…etc.....

LCdr - (For Submarine route) - (I am not entirely sure) but I think you need the Perisher Course and be Submarine Command Qualified.

LCdr - (For the Diving Branch)  - Similar to the Surface ship route.

The above is not a hard and fast rule but what typically happens. Basically, the fastest route to Command of a ship is to stay at sea verses remaining at shore postings and you need to be constantly up grading your quals.  It is hard fought and a long process but not impossible.

Good Luck, Cheers J.


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## ltmaverick25 (8 Feb 2009)

Thanks for the insight.

You mentioned that you need to be constantly upgrading your quals.  How exactly does that work?  Which quals are we talking about, the BWK? D level or both?  Do you just write regular tests for these things or take refresher courses ect...


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## J_dog (8 Feb 2009)

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> Thanks for the insight.
> You mentioned that you need to be constantly upgrading your quals.  How exactly does that work?  Which quals are we talking about, the BWK? D level or both?  Do you just write regular tests for these things or take refresher courses ect...



By upgrading your quals I meant more in the line of getting your OPME's completed(although this is now done after MARS IV) and getting Command Qualified Part 1 and 2.  Without getting into much detail to get Command Qualified you must pass a series of exams, a board, and practical.  You can start writing the Command exams once you have passed your NOPQ Board.  There are separate exams for each Warfare(Surf, U/W, Air), three exams Navigation (part 1, 2, 3), an exam for Deck, and a combined exam for DC/Eng.  If you pass the ORO course you will get the Warfare Command Exams written off.  Command exams are written twice a year.

I believe you need to be Command qual part 1 and 2 before you can be an XO as well as some other quals.


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## ltmaverick25 (8 Feb 2009)

What are OPMEs?  Ive seen the term mentioned before but still no clue what they mean.

As far as Command quals 1 and 2, which tests need to be passed out of the ones you mentioned to acheive that?  As far as warfare type stuff.  Lets say for example you do your D level on navigation.  I would imagine you should know your way around the navigation tests, but where would you get all the comprehensive knowlege for the warfare tests if you havent done any training in those areas?


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## dangerboy (8 Feb 2009)

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> What are OPMEs?  Ive seen the term mentioned before but still no clue what they mean.



OPME stands for Officer Professional Military Education

http://www.opme.forces.gc.ca/index-eng.asp


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## dimsum (8 Feb 2009)

OPMEs are Officer Professional Military Education.  They're 6 courses that are university-level and can either be done through distance ed or, if the base offers it, in an actual class.


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## George Wallace (8 Feb 2009)

dangerboy said:
			
		

> OPME stands for Officer Professional Military Education
> 
> http://www.opme.forces.gc.ca/index-eng.asp



You may remember them as OPDPs.     ;D


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