# Sea cadet march pasts/parades--is there any historical basis for their format?



## Sailing Instructor (9 Apr 2006)

I had started a thread on the history of naval parades done ashore (i.e. not divisions done aboard a ship) in the navy forums.  My purpose was to find out what the RCN and MARCOM thought was a parade.  I have been subjected to two extrenes: fancy ceremonial parades every morning in sea cadet training centres and lame boring parades for a once-in-a-lifetime gradutation from NETPO.

I've read the SC manual of drill and ceremonial which dictates a ceremonial divisions complete with a march past (totally different conception from the shipboard ceremonial divisions) and it is completely different from the CF ceremonial manual's directions on parade and march past formats.

The SC ceremonial manual's justification for the difference (and I say 'justification' because the manual is subordinate to the CF one) is, by my reading of the intro paragraphs, that this format is taken from the RCN/RN format.  

So, I checked an old (1953) RN manual of parade drill to see the original parade format.  It turned out that the RN drill in 1953 was more similar to the CF drill of 2006 than the SC drill was to either (in terms of parade format).  As I have not found any other RN/RCN manuals of drill, I cannot say that the SC manual has no basis.  But it would surprise me to find that march past traditions were so drastically changed in different years of the RCN/RN's history (given that the march past has not changed all that much between 1953 and 2006).

I should note here that the RCN/RN manual follows army format with changes in names of command/2i/c positions (e.g. "MWO" to "Coy CPO").  It would seem sensible that naval battallion drill followed the army format; all tactics for land fighting should tend towards similarity.

I see many discrepancies (little ones like this, not obviously necessary ones) between sea cadets and the navy.  Surely sea cadets have no reason to follow their own separate traditions if one of their aims is to foster interest in MARCOM.  That is to say, in simple matters such as parade format, it seems sea cadets ought do it the navy way.  

The closest thing to a SC march past that I have found in the CF manual of drill and ceremonial is the march past for the Sunset Ceremony, which is based on naval battallion drills.  Can someone find me a reference to a naval battallion drill that justifies the SC march past?  

(Secondly, there is also the issue that I have never seen a SC unit (SCSTC/LHQ) conduct a parade by their own book.  But that is only an issue if we can prove the historical basis for the SC parade.)

PS.  It seems that I have used the words 'parade' and 'march past' nearly interchangeably.  I mean that the entire SC parade format is not exactly matching the RCN/CF format, and that the march past hasthe greatest discrepancy.


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## PViddy (9 Apr 2006)

For what it's worth,

I just got back from a cadet drill competition today.  Now, I am not trying to bag on other elements here, but the Sea Cadet drill was very different than anyone elses, stuff i can't even begin to thtink of an explanation for.  Theoretically all cadet elements follow the 201 for drill and ceremonial, i was a bit perplexed.  Can anybody provide some insight into this ?

cheers,

PV


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## Sailing Instructor (9 Apr 2006)

Do you speak of the individual drill movements themselves being different?  (I assume so, as a drill competition would not include battallion ceremonial as far as I know.)

Navy drill, aside from not stomping and different dressing due to shipboard space constraints, is no different from army drill when considering individual movements.  And even those differences are rarely observed in sea cadets (they are all about stomping and taking up the maximum amount of space).


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## PViddy (10 Apr 2006)

Well, when "by the left/right quick march" was called, they would stomp their foot, i believe the left one, as they stepped off.  I also noticed halt's continually being called on the left foot in slow time.  I am familiar with ship board drill, but i am pretty sure that during a competition everything is per norm.  Anyways that answers some of my questions, i also came to the self conclusion that in cadets (not sure about the Forces), their are subtle elemental differeneces as to the way everybody calls drill commands, conducts drill and interpretations of etc.


cheers,

PV


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## Neill McKay (10 Apr 2006)

PViddy said:
			
		

> i also came to the self conclusion that in cadets (not sure about the Forces), their are subtle elemental differeneces as to the way everybody calls drill commands, conducts drill and interpretations of etc.



I would suggest that those are more unit differences than element differences, but there's some of both.


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## PViddy (10 Apr 2006)

Noted and agreed.  

PV


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## Sailing Instructor (11 Apr 2006)

Can anyone give me insight to the creation of the SC manual of drill & ceremonial?  Also, I'd like to hear how various SCSTCs conduct their parades.  I have only experienced HMCS QU'APPELLE's morning parade (which was not quite like the SC manual of drill & ceremonial's parade format).


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## Lerch (12 Apr 2006)

PViddy said:
			
		

> Well, when "by the left/right quick march" was called, they would stomp their foot, i believe the left one, as they stepped off.  I also noticed halt's continually being called on the left foot in slow time.


I think that may have been just that corp. My corp just steps straight off, _left-right-left-etc_.. The only time we'll stomp before stepping off is during the _mark-time_, when the order _forward_ is given.
I have noticed aswell that their are some differences of calling an order between Sea cadets and Army cadets. Personally it was between my own style and the RSM for Cougar Salvo. He seemed to emphasize each word the same, and say each word quickly. Meanwhile I emphasize the last word and stretch some words (you'll notice alot of Gunners doing this too).


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## Biggins (12 Apr 2006)

PViddy said:
			
		

> I also noticed halt's continually being called on the left foot in slow time.



This isn't a sea cadet thing just sloppy drill commands. The 201 states that the slow march will allways be given on the right foot.


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## Sailing Instructor (12 Apr 2006)

Perhaps those sea cadets who have attended SCSTCs other than QU'APPELLE could post the marchpast formats used.  Did any go by the SC manual of drill and ceremonial?  (I.e., 2 marchpasts, one in column of route, one in column of platoons.)


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## PViddy (13 Apr 2006)

Fair enough.  You and I know that.... just wondering if it was some sort of funky SC thing, because i saw tw consecytive corps do it.  One with and one with out arms.

cheers

PV


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## Biggins (13 Apr 2006)

Truly the most baffling precautionaries I have ever heard were from the SLC cadets on parade up in Cold Lake, they stretch and distort the procautionary to the point of making it uselss. I hated being on parade or anywhere near the parade square when there was a grad parade or drill practice going on. 

HMCS QU'APPELLE had a pretty decent March Past for the parade square they had. I remember back in 96 they still had the Gravel parade square. It was paved sometime between that summer and the summer of 2001 when I was there for MOC (Sea). Even with the crappy lake and less than ideal sailing conditions some fantastic sailers have come from there. Too bad it shut down because RCSU (Pra) is hurting without a SCSTC.  Though there is talk of opening one in Gimli MB, somewhere probably along side the Regional Gliding School.


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## Burrows (13 Apr 2006)

I do believe its a CAUTIONARY not PRECAUTIONARY....unless you want to say... Parade, PARADE, then the movement.


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## Biggins (13 Apr 2006)

I stand corrected. Words of command are broken into cautionary and executive commands. I used the wrong word, regardless it was still a horror to listen to.


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## Dane (14 Apr 2006)

The one that always gets me is the speed at which Cadets march. I'd guess the avergae speed for Army Cadets is around 90 paces per minute here in BC, based mostly I'd guess on the Pipes Bands cadets march with from time to time. Then we had some Air and Sea Cadets come to VACSTC on their way to other CSTCs and marching them around the camp was exhausting, I felt like I needed to run. They were macrhing at the "proper" 120. 

I eventually got so tired of it I stuck three Army Cadets up front as markers.


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## Michael Dorosh (14 Apr 2006)

As for elemental differences, I am hoping the Air Cadets are the only element to sing their commands. It's severely grating.


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## chrisf (14 Apr 2006)

Dane said:
			
		

> The one that always gets me is the speed at which Cadets march. I'd guess the avergae speed for Army Cadets is around 90 paces per minute here in BC, based mostly I'd guess on the Pipes Bands cadets march with from time to time.



I was under the impression that pipe bands were *supposed* to march slow?


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## Michael Dorosh (14 Apr 2006)

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> I was under the impression that pipe bands were *supposed* to march slow?



112, though, not 90.


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## chrisf (14 Apr 2006)

Ah. Righteo.


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## condor888000 (14 Apr 2006)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> As for elemental differences, I am hoping the Air Cadets are the only element to sing their commands. It's severely grating.



Pretty much yeah, irritating ain't it?


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## Sailing Instructor (23 Apr 2006)

Do any sea cadets here parade with units that simply do divisions and/or a proper marchpast (as per either manual)?


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## Siggywife (27 Apr 2006)

I think due to retstraints on size of Parade squares has a BIG impact on march past format... HMCS ONTARIO at RMC in Kingston Ontario and HMCS QUADRA in Comox BC have the exact same March past format just slightly different due to size... There is also the Cermonial Parades such as Cemermony of the Flags done at HMCS QUADRA every two weeks I believe throughout the summer..Mind you its been years for myself but I am pretty sure this hasnt changed..
This quote was taken righ tout of the manual..

Did you know that before 1968, the drill of the Navy, Army, and Air Force differed from each other? When the three services were joined together in 1968, a single drill standard was adopted. This does not mean to say, however, that elemental quirks do not still exist today.



So you need to look at before 1968 to find your answers..

Siggy


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## Siggywife (27 Apr 2006)

With my SC unit as well as the Navy League we do divisions only and do march pasts only on the Annual Inspection day..

Siggy


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## Centurian1985 (27 Apr 2006)

Having worked with Army, Navy, and Air Force, I found the drill was STILL different to this day (quirks like driving the right leg down at teh halt, shuffling instead of stepping, etc.... ).  Each element seems to interpret the regulations differently...


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## quadrapiper (27 Mar 2007)

On an additional note, certain old photos of RCN ceremonial show divisions formed around the outside of the square, looking in, with the band and guard in the centre; no idea which ceremony this is, but certainly very different from the divisions-by-companies routine used today.


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## Neill McKay (27 Mar 2007)

quadrapiper said:
			
		

> On an additional note, certain old photos of RCN ceremonial show divisions formed around the outside of the square, looking in, with the band and guard in the centre



I think that more closely resembles how it's done aboard ship.

We fell in for evening quarters in a vaguely similar way when I was in the Naval Reserve: junior ranks facing one way, officers to their right facing to the jr. ranks' left, the C&POs on the opposite side facing the officers.


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## Old_navy_062 (28 Mar 2007)

This picture could be of a specific graduation parade with the non graduating divisions lining the parade square.  In the 70's CFRS Cornwallis used to have all the platoons present to witness the graduating platoon and we would be off to the side.


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## quadrapiper (30 Mar 2007)

c2nwt said:
			
		

> This picture could be of a specific graduation parade with the non graduating divisions lining the parade square.  In the 70's CFRS Cornwallis used to have all the platoons present to witness the graduating platoon and we would be off to the side.


Perhaps the photo at the bottom, which I suspect is from Naden or Esquimalt - but the one below is on the Legislature Lawn in Victoria...


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