# 4CMBG pictures and info



## DOlmstead (26 Feb 2016)

Hello all,
             New to the forum but am ex Forces.  I'm asking for help with a future project I'm working on.  I need pictures and info on field gear and equipment used by 4CMBG around 84 to 88.  Web Gear, personal weapons, combat dress and of course support items like armour and Artillery.  Also personal recollection on said equipment, was this used or this was never used type things.  Likewise any suggestions on where to get this info would greatly be appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
D Olmstead


----------



## Loachman (26 Feb 2016)

In how much of a rush are you? I was in 444 Squadron from 1986 to 1989. I've got loads of photographs, but have only just started to digitize them. It will likely take me several years to work through the lot


----------



## DOlmstead (27 Feb 2016)

I don't have years but I have a couple months.  Anything will help.


----------



## Loachman (27 Feb 2016)

Roger. Bug me in a month.


----------



## larry Strong (27 Feb 2016)

If you can find it, the book "4 CMBG Canada's NATO Brigade: A History" is a great photo source.


Cheers
Larry


----------



## Arty39 (27 Feb 2016)

https://www.facebook.com/groups/4CMBG/photos/ Took about 2 seconds to find.


----------



## DOlmstead (27 Feb 2016)

Interesting as it doesn't show up in a google search for for 4 Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group.


----------



## Rifleman62 (27 Feb 2016)

Try this:

http://www.ruhrmemories.ca/

Ruhrmemories 1953 -1971
DEDICATED TO THE CANADIAN FORCES MEMBERS, DEPENDANTS AND TEACHERS WHO LIVED, WORKED AND PLAYED IN THE RUHR VALLEY


----------



## DOlmstead (27 Feb 2016)

Thanks for the link Rifleman62.  Loachman, roger that.


----------



## George Wallace (27 Feb 2016)

Try this FaceBook group:  CFB Lahr Who was there and when

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2315442858/


----------



## DOlmstead (28 Feb 2016)

I could use some clarification on 2nd Battalion PPCLI and 1st  Battalion Royal 22nd Regiment while deployed with 4CMBG.
  I understand they were broken into  1x Support Company 4x Rifle companies, but can someone help me with a break up to squad level of the Rifle and Support Companies?  Also I could really use help with a similar break down for the RCD, 1st Regiment Royal Canadian Horse Artillery and 4th Canadian Engineers Regiment.  Any info on how the BV 206 was used by the 4CMBG would help as well.  Thanks to all for the help.  It is appreciated.


----------



## dangerboy (28 Feb 2016)

DOlmstead said:
			
		

> I could use some clarification on 2nd Battalion PPCLI and 1st  Battalion Royal 22nd Regiment while deployed with 4CMBG.
> I understand they were broken into  1x Support Company 4x Rifle companies, but can someone help me with a break up to squad level of the Rifle and Support Companies?  Also I could really use help with a similar break down for the RCD, 1st Regiment Royal Canadian Horse Artillery and 4th Canadian Engineers Regiment.  Any info on how the BV 206 was used by the 4CMBG would help as well.  Thanks to all for the help.  It is appreciated.



For 2 PPCLI the 4 x rifle companies each had 3 x rifle platoons and a company HQ. Each rifle platoon had three 10 men sections (8 man dismounted section + M113 driver and gunner) and a Platoon Headquarters consisting of Pl Comd, Pl 2IC, Weapons Det (Comd + Wpns Det), Pl signaller, and M113 driver + gunner. The four rifle companies were A Coy, B Coy, C Coy, and D Coy. In the companies A Coy had 1, 2, and 3 Pl. B Coy had 4, 5, and 6 Pl. C Coy had 7, 8, and 9 Pl. D Coy had 10, 11, and 12 Pl.


----------



## cavalryman (28 Feb 2016)

dangerboy said:
			
		

> For 2 PPCLI the 4 x rifle companies each had 3 x rifle platoons and a company HQ. Each rifle platoon had three 10 men sections (8 man dismounted section + M113 driver and gunner) and a Platoon Headquarters consisting of Pl Comd, Pl 2IC, Weapons Det (Comd + Wpns Det), Pl signaller, and M113 driver + gunner. The four rifle companies were A Coy, B Coy, C Coy, and D Coy. In the companies A Coy had 1, 2, and 3 Pl. B Coy had 4, 5, and 6 Pl. C Coy had 7, 8, and 9 Pl. D Coy had 10, 11, and 12 Pl.


Ditto for 1erR22eR.  Combat Support Coy had TOW pl, Mortar Pl, Recce Pl, Pioneer Pl.  I can't remember the breakdown for those platoons - never spent any time in combat support coy, though I seem to recall Pioneer Pl was more on the order of Pioneer section in terms of size.  We also had a semi-official band (La Clique)


----------



## George Wallace (28 Feb 2016)

DOlmstead said:
			
		

> .........
> Also I could really use help with a similar break down for the RCD, 1st Regiment Royal Canadian Horse Artillery and 4th Canadian Engineers Regiment.  Any info on how the BV 206 was used by the 4CMBG would help as well.  Thanks to all for the help.  It is appreciated.



The RCD had 3 Sqns of tanks (19 per Sqn)

RHQ had 3 tanks and a seven car Recce Troop (C/S 60) in Lynx.

A Sqn fully manned four Troops of 4 tanks and 3 tanks in SHQ, and an Adm Troop (Ammo, POL, Rations, QM, Medic and Maintainers) to provide A Ech support.

B Sqn fully manned four Troops of 4 tanks and 3 tanks in SHQ, and an Adm Troop (Ammo, POL, Rations, QM, Medic and Maintainers) to provide A Ech support.

C Sqn had approx 24 pers who maintained four Troops of 4 tanks and 3 tanks in SHQ, and an Adm Troop (Ammo, POL, Rations, QM, Medic and Maintainers) in Germany and fully manned four Troops of 4 tanks and 3 tanks in SHQ, and an Adm Troop (Ammo, POL, Rations, QM, Medic and Maintainers) in CFB Gagetown, New Brunswick.

Recce Sqn fully manned four 5 car Recce Troops in Lynx and an Adm Troop (Ammo, POL, Rations, QM, Medic and Maintainers) providing A Ech support.

HQ Sqn provided all the B Ech support (Ammo, POL, Rations, QM, Medic and Maintainers) to all the Regiment's Sqns.  They were the link between the A Echelons and Svc Bn.


I never saw any BV 206 in 4 CMBG.


----------



## Kat Stevens (28 Feb 2016)

4 COMBAT Engineer Regiment.


----------



## Rifleman62 (28 Feb 2016)

Someone may want to explain the fixed Call Signs on the Vehicles.

I was in 13C with 2 PPCLI in 1968. A Coy, 3 Pl, 9 Sect.


----------



## Kat Stevens (28 Feb 2016)

4 CER
RHQ
41 Field Squadron- three ( then two, then three again) field troops of four eight man sections and a small HQ 
                            element,
                          - a Sqn HQ including SQMS
45 Support Sqn- Resources Troop (water supply, mcm, AVLB reload, construction)
                         Heavy Equipment troop
                         Armoured Engineer troop 
                         Squadron HQ
48 Admin Sqn-Maintenance troop
                    -Log troop
                    -Sqn HQ


----------



## my72jeep (28 Feb 2016)

I have some from the 83-85 time frame but if my wife or daughter ever see them, I may be living in the shacks again........


----------



## FJAG (28 Feb 2016)

DOlmstead said:
			
		

> . . . Also I could really use help with a similar break down for the . . .  1st Regiment Royal Canadian Horse Artillery . . .



From http://www.army-armee.forces.gc.ca/en/1-rcha/history.page

"In March 1967, 1 RCHA deployed to Germany with A, B, and C Battery [note each battery is 2 x four gun 105mm C1 howitzer troops] becoming the permanent "Gunnery" unit supporting 4 CMBG.  U Battery was converted to Counter Mortar Radar section and later disbanded in 1970.  Shortly after deploying in July 1968 all 105 C1 guns were replaced with 155 mm M109A1 Howitzers.  1 RCHA maintained the two-troop system until the downsizing of the Brigade announced in 1969 and moving to Lahr in 1970.  In order to maintain three firing units, the number of guns were scaled back to six per Battery and the single fire unit concept was adopted. [note that this changed us to a more Americanized rather than British artillery battery structure although Canadian batteries were more robust in that the battery also supplied a Fire Support Coordination Center and two/three Forward Observation officer teams to the supported battle group and had a heavier, more redundant Command Post structure and echelon than the Americans]"

. . . 

"In October 1970, 1 RCHA together with 4 CMBG, moved from BAOR in Hemer, West Germany to Schwarzwald (Black Forest) with the rest of the brigade group, to become Central Army Group’s reserve force (CENTAG), and was based in Lahr, South West Germany.  In 1975, an Air Defence Troop of 15 Blowpipe Detachments was added to the Regiment's establishment as well as the equipment and skeleton staff of a fourth Battery, [note in 1977 the guns were upgraded to M109A3s for a total of 24 guns] resurrecting Z Battery. [note 3 RCHA in Shilo had one of it's batteries (G Bty) designated as the fly-over augmentation battery]

On August 10,1985, soldiers of 3 RCHA, Shilo, Manitoba arrived in Lahr.  This increased Z Battery to full strength on a permanent basis.  The event made 1 RCHA the largest manned medium gun Regiment in NATO at the time.  On June 30,1988, the Air Defence Troop was transferred to 4 Air Defence Regiment.  Z Battery was reduced to nil-strength in 1991.

1 RCHA was brought back to Shilo briefly and replaced 3 RCHA on its reduction to nil-strength on July 30,1992.  The 4 CMBG disbanded in 1993."

Note that during this period of time there were also artillery air defence resources in 4 CMBG as follows: 

From: http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/corpsbranches/royalregimentofcanadianartillery.htm

"In 1975 two airfield air defence batteries were re-activated in Germany, 128 Airfield Air Defence Battery RCA at Baden-Soellingen, and 129 Airfield Air Defence Battery RCA at Lahr. Both were equipped with 40mm Boffin guns and Blowpipe Very Short Range Air Defence (VSHORAD) missiles. The Boffin was a hydraulically driven naval version of the standard World War Two 40mm Bofors. They had been retrieved from decommissioned minesweepers and the aircraft carrier Bonaventure. In 1976, 1 RCHA and 2 RCHA [note Petwawa] each received a troop of Blowpipe. The Germany-based units were augmented in 1976 by the formation of two fly-over batteries - H Battery in 3 RCHA, and V Battery in 5 RALC."

. . . 

"In 1987, 4th Air Defence Regiment RCA, (127, 128 and 129 AD Batteries), was formed at Lahr, Germany; the latter two batteries were airfield defence batteries equipped with four Skyguard sections (a Skyguard fire control radar and two twin 35mm Oerlikon GDF-005 gun systems each), and a troop of four ADATS SHORAD missile systems. 127 AD Battery was tasked with protection of 4 CMBG, equipped with 12 ADATS. 119 AD Battery [note formed to replace 2 RCHA's air defence troop, subsequently moved to Gagetown] was also re-equipped with ADATS."

. . . 

The 4th AD Regiment was reduced to nil strength in 1992 as part of the reduction of forces and the return of units from Germany, but raised again with a smaller establishment on 2l Jul 1996 as a Total Force unit.

The HQ and 128 AD Battery were located in Moncton, with 119 AD Battery and 210 AD Workshop located in Gagetown. A third battery’s worth of equipment was positioned at Cold Lake, Alberta with a small caretaker staff."

Hope this helps.


----------



## DOlmstead (28 Feb 2016)

Thanks all!  Great info, exactly what I needed.   One last request.  I could use the breakdown, if anyone has them, to Squad level for the following:
Infantry Bat Combat Support Coy. TOW, Mortar, recce and pioneer platoons
And 4CER  45 Support Squad. Resource Troop, Heavy Equipment Troop, Armoured Engineer Squad and the Squad HG.  Again thanks all for the help its greatly appreciated.


----------



## George Wallace (28 Feb 2016)

I googled "orbat, 4 CMBG" and came up with this, that someone else used to create a Cold War game:

http://coldwargamer.blogspot.ca/2012/06/orbat-1980s-4cmbg-battle-group-part-1.html


or you could use this site:

http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/organization/orgformations/4cmbg.htm


----------



## Loachman (28 Feb 2016)

The Canadian Army does not have "Squads". It has "Sections", in common with other British Commonwealth armies.


----------



## FJAG (28 Feb 2016)

DOlmstead said:
			
		

> I could use the breakdown, if anyone has them, to Squad level for the following:
> Infantry Bat Combat Support Coy. TOW, Mortar, recce and pioneer platoons



The attachment is a snap from B-GL-309-003 The Infantry Section and Platoon in Battle 15 Aug 1996 - Figure 2-1 Organization of an Infantry Battalion

 :cheers:


----------



## McG (28 Feb 2016)

More pictures are buried through here:  http://army.ca/gallery3/index.php/

and there is one here:  http://army.ca/wiki/index.php/Category:Cold_War_Images


----------



## Colin Parkinson (29 Feb 2016)

I think it was 84 I went over to be part of Z battery for Reforger and it was a hollow shell that was filled out by flying in personal.


----------



## FJAG (29 Feb 2016)

Colin P said:
			
		

> I think it was 84 I went over to be part of Z battery for Reforger and it was a hollow shell that was filled out by flying in personal.



That was a good exercise. It got so warm towards the end that we had to cut back the exercise as the manoeuvre damage in the soft fields was enormous.

My recollection was that Z Battery in Germany had some 15 or so personnel on permanent staff--the Battery Captain and the rest mostly RCEME heavy track maintainers. The rest of the battery was flyover personnel from G Bty 3 RCHA.

Here's a picture of us being welcomed by the 1 RCHA CO, George Oehring. G Bty's commander; Lou Branum is on the right and me tucked away on the left. Since Z Bty had it's own BK, I went over as the third FOO.


----------



## Danjanou (29 Feb 2016)

My timeline was a bit prior to this but can also dig up digitize ( and censor as needed) pics and other info. As noted wargaming sites are often useful for TOEs etc especially with the recent resurgence in Cold War gaming such as BF's new Team Yankee. Will dig up links etc  and post as I can.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (29 Feb 2016)

FJAG said:
			
		

> That was a good exercise. It got so warm towards the end that we had to cut back the exercise as the manoeuvre damage in the soft fields was enormous.
> 
> My recollection was that Z Battery in Germany had some 15 or so personnel on permanent staff--the Battery Captain and the rest mostly RCEME heavy track maintainers. The rest of the battery was flyover personnel from G Bty 3 RCHA.
> 
> Here's a picture of us being welcomed by the 1 RCHA CO, George Oehring. G Bty's commander; Lou Branum is on the right and me tucked away on the left. Since Z Bty had it's own BK, I went over as the third FOO.



I might be in the back of that picture :0. Details are foggy but I was attached to the RQMS as a driver. I really enjoyed Germany, I found the unit quite good to work with and lot more task focused than 3rd herd.


----------

