# Well...I got the call.....



## Would_be_Artillery (16 Mar 2010)

I did not get accepted for the first round, what a surprise. Now my life is really in the shiter, not only has my first year at University more or less gone to waste, now this. My morale is at an all-time low, I don't even want to apply the next year, I feel like my entire career path has been shot down and relying on it again would be another year wasted. 

Man, I think the problem was I saw it as a granted, like it would happen for sure. I'm just as lost as ever and i'm getting really scared because now I want to change my degree, but now that a military career seems unlikely, I just don't know where to go. RCMP? City Police Dept? I have always wanted to be an authority figure, and my options are very limited. Joing as a NCM is out of the question, officer or nothing, no offense to non-coms.

What are my options now?


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## ekpiper (16 Mar 2010)

Well, I can imagine how damaging it could be to not get into ROTP, but bear this in mind: General (Ret.) Rick Hillier wasn't accepted into ROTP his first shot.  He applied again for Civvy U and then got accepted.  You can apply again in your second year, and if that fails, you can graduate and go Direct Entry.  A degree is not a waste in this job culture.  If you change your major, you can even apply twice more, as long as you have 2 full years left in your degree.  In the mean-time, consider joining as an NCM to get experience, or volunteering more.

ekpiper


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## captloadie (16 Mar 2010)

I'm hoping the tone of your post is due to the disappointment you are experiencing, and not indicative of the type of person you are. From what I read in your post, it isn't that hard to infer why you weren't accepted. 


			
				Would_be_Artillery said:
			
		

> I don't even want to apply the next year, I feel like my entire career path has been shot down and relying on it again would be another year wasted.
> 
> I have always wanted to be an authority figure, and my options are very limited. Joing as a NCM is out of the question, officer or nothing, no offense to non-coms.


To me what you are saying is you are too good to be NCM, yet, you don't have the perseverance to see something through when it gets difficult. These aren't good qualities in any Officer, nor in a competent NCM.


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## Would_be_Artillery (16 Mar 2010)

I hardly think this is true and even if it were the case, it would be unjustified for all the Army ROTP selection board knew.

I do not want to be a NCM because I have always dreamed of leading, not following. I could no bear to take orders from a young Lt., knowing full well I could have been in their possition. I'm not exactly excited about going to places like Afghanistan, but thats the job, the sweet thing of it would have been that I had a responsibility over 30 individuals. I'm not sure what goes on back behind those curtains but it isn't difficult to believe someone out of Quebec beat me. I'm not going to complain now but perhaps me not being born in Canada is also one of those things that makes me less-competitive. 

I won't lie, this is frustrating, and anyone who wouldn't be frustrated in my position woudn't be human.


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## PMedMoe (16 Mar 2010)

You can be a leader as an NCM as well.  I have no problems "taking orders" from a young Lt.  I know full well, I could have been in their position, too, I just chose not to.

I tend to agree with captloadie, you seem to have a _bit_ of a chip on your shoulder.  Of course you're frustrated, but ekpiper gave you some advice.  Pull up your socks and try again.

Oh, and being born outside of Canada is not an issue as long as you meet the citizenship requirements.


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## tsokman (16 Mar 2010)

Why could you not bare taking orders from a young LT...Sounds flippant to me. Anyways just intuitively a senior NCO is probably a better small unit leader then a fresh green 2nd LT.  Wouldnt a senior NCO have a better chance of being accepted as an officer then someone straight off the street...


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## gszd55 (16 Mar 2010)

As an officer candidate (DEO) myself, I really can't let this go.  I think your attitude toward leadership could very well have been your downfall.  I don't have any military experience yet, but I have tons in the civy world and I can tell you that in any context being a good leader is not about the 'sweet thing' of having 30 people under you.   Leading is putting yourself last before the 30 people in front of you.   And if you don't think NCMs lead, you are missing something pretty large on the CF story I've been reading about.   Further, from whom do you think those young Lt's take their orders from, so they follow too, chain of command. Judging from your selfishness, I'd neither want to lead or be commanded by you into battle.       <edited for grammar>


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## tsokman (16 Mar 2010)

Maybe you should watch the movies Catch-22 and The Manchurian Candidate...


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## ballz (16 Mar 2010)

Would_be_Artillery said:
			
		

> I could no bear to take orders from a young Lt., knowing full well I could have been in their possition.



I got news for ya buddy, a young Lt's best man is his WO and SNCOs, people that could have been in his shoes, and any young Lt that doesn't realize that (had you ever gotten to the rank, it sounds like this could be a problem for you) isn't a very good one.



			
				Would_be_Artillery said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what goes on back behind those curtains but it isn't difficult to believe someone out of Quebec beat me.



What's your point???? So did someone from every other province and territory. Tons of 'em.


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## tsokman (16 Mar 2010)

Hey if I was a green 2nd Lt I would even take advice from a Pvt 1st Class if it made sense....


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## PMedMoe (16 Mar 2010)

tsokman said:
			
		

> Hey if I was a green 2nd Lt I would even take advice from a Pvt 1st Class if it made sense....


We don't have Pvt 1st Class in the CF.   :


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## tsokman (16 Mar 2010)

oh ok I wasn't sure about that...there's Private with three levels right...How do you refer to each level of the rank Private...


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## PMedMoe (16 Mar 2010)

tsokman said:
			
		

> oh ok I wasn't sure about that...there's Private with three levels right...How do you refer to each level of the rank Private...


Off topic:

Pte(R) - Recruit
Pte(B) - Basic
Pte(T) - Trained 

All still called Pte, whether they have a hook or not.

Back on topic.


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## tsokman (16 Mar 2010)

What makes you think being a leader is so great you'll be blamed for everything...


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## PuckChaser (16 Mar 2010)

tsokman said:
			
		

> What makes you think being a leader is so great you'll be blamed for everything...



You again.....

We have a leadership principle in the CF, its says "Seek and accept responsibility." That means its a privilege to be a leader in the CF, and you should be taking every opportunity to do so.  I'm sure you'll do well with your PER having Leadership Potential: Low, because you don't want to be "blamed for everything".


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## tsokman (16 Mar 2010)

haha...I was just trying to point out that leadership has positives and negatives thats all just to humble him....


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## mewingkitty (16 Mar 2010)

> I'm not exactly excited about going to places like Afghanistan, but thats the job, the sweet thing of it would have been that I had a responsibility over 30 individuals.



I've typed out four responses to this now. I can't seem to accurately express my horror at this statement.


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## tsokman (16 Mar 2010)

I thought this was quite odd as well....Seems like you just think leadership is an end in itself whereas it seems more a means to the mission..i.e the mission is the reference point not the commander...


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## gszd55 (16 Mar 2010)

mewingkitty said:
			
		

> I've typed out four responses to this now. I can't seem to accurately express my horror at this statement.



Ditto. Sickening actually, it bothered me the moment I read it.  I hope the recruiting process is 100% successful at weeding out this type of attitude.  Seems like its working in this case...


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## Would_be_Artillery (16 Mar 2010)

Well, being openly insulted is one thing, but some of these posts are just unhelpful and meaningless to me. I can care less what any of you think of my desire to be an officer, not a non-com, an officer. I find some posts annoying, when it is an officer taking offense at my disinterest in being a non-com. I have not said one bad thing about NCMs, I just stated I do not wish to be one. To take offense at that is just childish.

It is convient to dictate what someone else should or shouldn't be, but ask yourselves, the officers, would you trade your position for that of a NCM, if you had the chance of doing it over again?

The military, like anything else in our capitalistic society, is an organization that encourages advancement. I have too much going on in my life to get angry on these forums. I just find it very annoying when someone quotes you and simply says "I find this disturbing...", if that is the case then you misinterpreted the post, but alas. 

You all accuse me of snobbery but you are equally as snobby, ignorant and quick to pull the trigger, suggesting you stalk these forums just waiting to pounce on someone. Sad. I have not said or described or done anything that would reveal enough of my character for you all to draw on such insults and generalizations. You take a statement and build around it a giant assumption of who I am. I have been called selfish here, for no other reason that of not wanting to be an NCM. Wow. If that is the intellectual grade of the existing officers, the recuiting centres seem to have raised their standards since. 

I cam here to seek realistic advice, but have been treated shamelessly like a child. This further aggravates me, but again, this forum is the last of my frustrations at the moment. So thanks. Thanks for nothing.


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## tsokman (16 Mar 2010)

Did you ever mention during your interviews that you want to be an effective commander-not just some concept of leadership you may personally have-and produce value for the CF...I thought those were key points during mine along with being well rounded and knowing my trade inside out along with deflecting attention away from yourself as much as possible within the framework of occupational trade offs-i.e CF centred mind set.


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## Would_be_Artillery (16 Mar 2010)

To be honest, I thought  the interview went very well. That was part of the reason I git so excited, it seemed like it coudl actually happen. 

I answered all of the questions honestly, I prettied up nothing for them. I admitted that my desired to be in the forces requires that I be in a administrative position. That being said, I am willing to lead by example, as is the motto of CF officers. I told them that is was a career option, the long-haul but since I am from a 1-income middle-class family, the subsidized education would really help me, as OSAP can be a stressful experience. I clearly stated my reasons and my level of commitment, and they seemed to take it all well. I was found out to be colour blind level 2, which null and voided my MARS application. I would upset my family and myself if I became an NCM, it just is not an option. 

I realize leadership is not a toy to be used, and I would greatly appreciate to to not be seen as a naive fool. It is something that I have always wanted to achieve, I will not apologize for that.


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## tsokman (16 Mar 2010)

Maybe youre having a bit of a cultural issue there with your parents.  In alot of countries being an NCM just means youre from a lower social class.  Thats not necessarily the case in Canada.  The way I approached my interview was that Im producing value for the CF and any value that comes to me is being produced secondarily by the engagement process. Also, I noticed giving a single reason for anything wasnt productive--combination reasons with min-max priorities were preferable-i.e I want to serve the CF and if I can get my Masters applicable to my service that would be fantastic but I would even take a position as a line infantryman as well.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (16 Mar 2010)

Would_be_Artillery said:
			
		

> It is convient to dictate what someone else should or shouldn't be, but ask yourselves, the officers, would you trade your position for that of a NCM, if you had the chance of doing it over again?



Some have.  They wanted a trade more.



			
				Would_be_Artillery said:
			
		

> If that is the intellectual grade of the existing officers, the recuiting centres seem to have raised their standards since.
> 
> I cam here to seek realistic advice, but have been treated shamelessly like a child.



Imagine that, yet somehow we have kids on this forum whom get treated like adults.
Interesting.......



			
				Would_be_Artillery said:
			
		

> I would upset my family and myself if I became an NCM, it just is not an option.



Well all I can say is that I'm sure the board saw the same pathetic shallowness in you that you have shown to us..........................kudos to them.




			
				Would_be_Artillery said:
			
		

> Thanks for nothing.



Oh, your welcome.


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## tristismilitis (16 Mar 2010)

tsokman said:
			
		

> Why could you not bare taking orders from a young LT...Sounds flippant to me. Anyways just intuitively a senior NCO is probably a better small unit leader then a fresh green 2nd LT.  Wouldnt a senior NCO have a better chance of being accepted as an officer then someone straight off the street...



Oddly, the chances of coming in from civvy street are much better as you are not leaving a position that the CF has already paid to train/employ you in, plus the expectations are higher for enlisted personnel as they have already been trained to a CF standard and had leadership qualities measured directly (that’s right would_be_artilery, all the other people replying are dead on in saying that NCMs lead. For starters who do you think teaches the BMOQ courses?!).

There is the University Training Plan Non-Commissioned Member (UTPNCM) competition for NCM's which allows successful candidates to go to school and obtain a degree (on subsidy) and take up a commissioned rank after graduation, but that route requires a substantive Corporal rank at a minimum (and I do mean minimum, it often takes additional years to acquire all the needed pieces to apply for this program when you are working fully in your trade, going on course/exercise/tour). 
Technically any NCM holding a substantive Corporal rank and a degree can apply to be  commissioned from the ranks but the successful candidate is generally at least a MCpl if not a WO (or above) and competition is fierce for both UTPNCM and commissioning from the ranks. The PSO tells applicants right from the start that it is not abnormal to get a rejection the first time around and they encourage you to take another year to round out your application (volunteer hours, improve your GPA etc) in order to reapply the next year. 

Any way you look at it the road to a commission has challenges and requires perseverance and PATIENCE (both of which you will need in abundance for the duration of your career). To continue all you need to do is work you’re a$$ off for the next year to make yourself more competitive (take spring/summer semester if you can to improve your GPA, volunteer, perhaps get some work experience in the field you are aiming for, see if you can make an appointment to go see someone in the military or equivalent civilian position you hope to hold and interview them/job shadow). But if you can’t manage to suck it up and give it another year then I think we are all better off (yourself included) to not have you reapply. 

You say we are treating you like a child but truly you are acting/posting like a petulant child that didn’t get picked first for something as evidenced by comments such as ‘someone from Quebec beating you for a position’. If you were acting as a mature candidate you would take what you could from your rejection/posted comments and do something with them. For instance, if you truly believe someone from Quebec was more successful, think about it! Maybe they were already bilingual which is an eventual requirement for all officers, so perhaps you could take a few French courses before you reapply. While that may not mean you are bilingual it shows initiative and potential.

I agree with mewingkitty, I wasn’t sure how to respond but I will say this: Leading troops isn’t a ‘sweet deal’ it is an honour, a privilege and bloody hard work. It’s not 30 anonymous people you are commanding around a video game environment, they are real people and their trust and loyalty can only be earned through competent, dedicated and responsible leadership. 
Also, I can tell you personally from both the NCM and Officer point of view that I do not appreciate your tone and that is what people take away when you don’t have the chance to explain or draft a rebuttal, it’s not just what you say, it’s how you say it. Troops deserve respect and treating leadership as a ‘sweet deal’, and thanking people for nothing doesn’t inspire confidence in your potential troops or your potential peers who are replying to you on this forum.

Additionally, you might want to give a thought to waiting a night or two before you post online when you are angry or upset about something…oh wait, that would require patience. Well, point to work on at any rate. Good Luck.


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## tsokman (16 Mar 2010)

Can you apply DEO on re-engagement...

Maybe you approached the officer application process in the wrong manner or with the wrong orientation...From what I gathered the ideal candidate was some kind of well-rounded morphing leprechaun who could oscillate between contradictory states and trade offs and produce long term value for the CF.. Commitment wise as officer I would have said life. As a tech I mentioned min 10 max 25 or to retirement whichever is later.


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## Loachman (17 Mar 2010)

You wanted input and advice and you got it.

It was blunt and honest, whether you liked it or not.

I saw exactly what the others did, and I did not like what I saw at all.

Your attitude, frankly, sucks - or at least the expression of it.

You may eventually get accepted. You may even get through the training process successfully and be commissioned, but I doubt that if you carry on like this. Unless you reassess yourself and stop making excuses, blaming others, and showing a lack of respect and consideration for your potential subordinates you are going to be a danger to them and others (my greatest concern) and yourself.

I am especially leary of anybody who says that they want to be "an authority figure". It indicates to me that you are doing this for the wrong reasons, and have no clue what the right reasons are.

You cannot lead unless you can follow.

I read and re-read all of your posts here. You managed to set off every personal alarm bell that I have.

You can now go and toss your teddy into a corner and pout, or you can do an honest personal appraisal based upon what you've been told by several people that may end up working with or for you, or those of us already at ranks that it would take you several years to achieve, and who have amassed several years of experience and know well about what they speak.

Your call. We'll help, but only when you're ready.


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## Would_be_Artillery (17 Mar 2010)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Oh, your welcome.



Was that whole post the highlight of your day? If your goal was to make another feel bad about themself then you have failed. Try someone else grandpa.

tristismilitis and tsokman have made helpful posts, to them I say thank you. And let me make this known that I never meant to make light of a leadership position, and the interpretation of the "sweet deal" was not the one I was trying to put out there. What I meant to say was that the hardships of the job are also balanced by that great honor. I was very upset earlier in the day and I have cooled off since, I believe. That being said, I think it would do many members here good to not viciously attack someone for views which they hold. If I think being a garbage man is not for me, because I do not want to be known as a garbage man, that is my opinion and I have every right to it. I'm sure many garbage men might get upset at my statement but we all hold these kinds of views, some more extreme than others. The same rule goes for my comment on being an NCM. My view of a respectable career is different than the next person's. Would you raised your children by encouraging them to work in larbour intensive positions? Most reasonable people would naturally want better for their kids. Again I have not uttered a single disrespectful word to NCMs, in my opinion. You people can take offense at whatever you want, but turning my thread into a flaming rally is not appreciated.


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## Kat Stevens (17 Mar 2010)

You're a fucking tool, full stop.  Mods, I'll take that warning gladly.


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## Would_be_Artillery (17 Mar 2010)

Loachman, it is a simple fact of life that one will not get along with everyone they interact with. I am astonished that i've raised "every" personal alarm bell with what little i've said. Getting the point across is good, but no one likes to be treated like a child, that includes me. I believe I am ready, I also believe I have more disicipline and maturity than the members on this forum think I do, which is unfortunate but nonetheless irrelevent.

I do realize this set-back is not a tombstone, but I would appreciate learning from the experience of others and being set for my next attempt, instead of leaving myself at the mercy of my admittedly inexperienced devices. So yes, helpful adivice is needed, wanted, and welcomed.


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## Would_be_Artillery (17 Mar 2010)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> You're a ******* tool, full stop.  Mods, I'll take that warning gladly.



This is ridiculous. Are there even any mods here? I thought this was a rather serious forum.


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## Loachman (17 Mar 2010)

Yes, there is at least one Mod here - me.

That was a low blow, but I'm going to let it slide.

You need to see this, or you are going to fail - it's just a matter of when.

You said "So yes, helpful adivice is needed, wanted, and welcomed."

You've been given it, but you have not heeded it.

If you think that some of us here have been rough, you are going to be absolutely savaged during training, and by a lot of NCMs who will have a lot of influence over what happens to you.

Understand now, the easy way, or not.

You are not a Field Marshall in real life, and this is not a game.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (17 Mar 2010)

Very serious forum,.......hence we don't suffer fools very well.

When you have learned, and/or earned, even a small fraction of the leadership ability of lifetime Cpl.  "Kat" Stevens maybe you might try this Military thing again.

[Oh yea, internet commanding a Panzer division doesn't count ]

Come back again in a few months and I will unlock this for you.


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