# Creating a canteen



## Crispy Bacon (29 Apr 2014)

Is there any reference on how to create a unit canteen?

I've heard plenty of stories on canteens "being shut down" but never why they were shut down or how they got started in the first place.

A few of us are interested in starting a small canteen with some pop, chips, chocolate bars, etc.  The funds raised would be held by the canteen manager and used to subsidize unit events (e.g. sports days).

Any references would be great!


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## DAA (29 Apr 2014)

Crispy Bacon said:
			
		

> Is there any reference on how to create a unit canteen?
> 
> I've heard plenty of stories on canteens "being shut down" but never why they were shut down or how they got started in the first place.
> 
> ...



Canteens and their operations are governed by NPF Regulations (ie; PSP).  Once you see what the requirements are, you will quickly forget about doing this.

Good luck!


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## Occam (29 Apr 2014)

DAA said:
			
		

> Canteens and their operations are governed by NPF Regulations (ie; PSP).  Once you see what the requirements are, you will quickly forget about doing this.



Yet another shining example of how nearly everything PSP touches turns to lead.

(Messes, canteens, Falls Lake cottages & campground...the list goes on...)


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## Colin Parkinson (29 Apr 2014)

Pray tell, what was wrong with the old regs on Canteens that this entity felt needed fixing?  The idea of canteens has only been around for a couple of hundred years.


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## Jarnhamar (29 Apr 2014)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Pray tell, what was wrong with the old regs on Canteens that this entity felt needed fixing?  The idea of canteens has only been around for a couple of hundred years.



PSP needs to get their hands involved in everything.


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## DAA (29 Apr 2014)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> PSP needs to get their hands involved in everything.



Not to mention, they want a piece of the "pie" or at least some of the crumbs.......


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## dapaterson (29 Apr 2014)

The problem is that we treat a unit canteen, with $100 of inventory and annual sales around $500 as being the same as a mess with thousands of dollars in inventory and six figures in sales & mess dues.


In other words, we waste dollars to save pennies.


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## MARS (29 Apr 2014)

Occam said:
			
		

> Yet another shining example of how nearly everything PSP touches turns to lead.
> 
> (Messes, canteens, Falls Lake cottages & campground...the list goes on...)



Thread hijack:  what PSP-related grief surrounds Falls lake?  I am hoping to take my ship's coy up there in June.  Any idea what issues I need to be prepared for?

Cheers


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## Jarnhamar (29 Apr 2014)

DAA said:
			
		

> Not to mention, they want a piece of the "pie" or at least some of the crumbs.......



Just like the Community Access Card (CAC) scam.



Crispy Bacon, you might think it may just be easier to drop $100 on supplies you buy at national Grocer and then sell them for a bit of a profit all on your own . Don't. NPF Storm Troopers will come after you like a hungry bear if they get wind of it.


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## Crispy Bacon (29 Apr 2014)

DAA said:
			
		

> Canteens and their operations are governed by NPF Regulations (ie; PSP).  Once you see what the requirements are, you will quickly forget about doing this.
> 
> Good luck!



Frankly, I don't see why it's any of their business.

If I have 10 chocolate bars and want to give them away, what's to stop me?
If I have 10 chocolate bars and I want to sell them for $1 each, what's to stop me?
If I sell 10 chocolate bars for $1 each and I want to use that $10 to buy the unit a basketball, what's to stop me?

This is why I'm looking for a specific reference: to see exactly what (they say) we can and cannot do.


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## Occam (29 Apr 2014)

MARS said:
			
		

> Thread hijack:  what PSP-related grief surrounds Falls lake?  I am hoping to take my ship's coy up there in June.  Any idea what issues I need to be prepared for?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Frank



Probably nothing that you need to worry about at this point.  When the facility was first taken over by CFB Halifax, it was managed by a retired Navy Chief, who ran the place like a tight ship.  They had sailors tripping over each other to volunteer for weekend work parties to fix buildings, clear brush, and just general labour.  The place was booked solid most of the time with people making very favourable reports on the facility.

When PSP took over, the old Navy Chief was pushed out by a bean counter who promptly raised the cottage and camping prices through the roof, ended the "reward" program for volunteer work parties, and basically turned the place on its ear.  Occupancy rates dropped like a rock because it was no longer priced attractively to compete with similar facilities.

I'm not sure what it's like now, but it had potential to be a real gem in the crown of the Navy.  I'd be curious to know if it ever reached that status.


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## Occam (29 Apr 2014)

Crispy Bacon said:
			
		

> Frankly, I don't see why it's any of their business.
> 
> If I have 10 chocolate bars and want to give them away, what's to stop me?
> If I have 10 chocolate bars and I want to sell them for $1 each, what's to stop me?
> ...



PSP Policies - https://www.cfmws.com/en/AboutUs/Library/PoliciesandRegulations/PSP/Pages/default.aspx

Search the top two documents for "canteen".


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## Colin Parkinson (29 Apr 2014)

Yikes! 
Twits should have put thresholds on sales to certain polices.



As I recall the CCG rules were basically no more than 10% above costs for goods sold in the Canteen

The icebreakers made a killing in the Arctic selling pop and goodies for basically down south prices

All I could find
Non-Public Funds Activities: by
- directing and controlling the operation of the ship's canteen;
- approving the purchase of all items for sale in the canteen;
- purchasing and controlling bonded stores in accordance with Canada Customs Regulations;
- selecting, directing, supervising and training canteen personnel;
- ensuring adequate security and control of canteen and bonded stocks and cash holdings;
- establishing and maintaining auditable consolidated financial accounts for the ship's canteen,
Officers' Mess and Recreation and Welfare Fund;
- preparing financial statements on a quarterly basis including Balance Sheet, Statement of Operations
and Statement of Revenue and Expenditure;
http://acoc-acco.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/SO-eng.pdf
- performing the duties of the secretary-treasurer of the Recreation and Welfare Committee.


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## Crispy Bacon (29 Apr 2014)

Occam said:
			
		

> PSP Policies - https://www.cfmws.com/en/AboutUs/Library/PoliciesandRegulations/PSP/Pages/default.aspx
> 
> Search the top two documents for "canteen".



Judging by the first document, I'm not sure even _they_ understand what a canteen is:



> Canteen: an NPP activity that is not part of CANEX, is run by full or part-time staff, has
> posted hours of operations, purchases at wholesale and sells at retail, and collects and
> remits tax.



To me, that sounds like a cafeteria or corner store; not a Cpl on a TCAT who wants to sell some pop and chips for a few months while he's on light duties (which is typically who staffs a canteen).


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## Occam (29 Apr 2014)

Crispy Bacon said:
			
		

> Judging by the first document, I'm not sure even _they_ understand what a canteen is:
> 
> To me, that sounds like a cafeteria or corner store; not a Cpl on a TCAT who wants to sell some pop and chips for a few months while he's on light duties (which is typically who staffs a canteen).



I think what you're after is, according to their definitions, a _coffee fund_.  Different rules, but I don't see them in their policies other than in the definitions.  I think you'll want to call your local PSP office and ask them what the rules are for a _coffee fund_.


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## DAA (29 Apr 2014)

Crispy Bacon said:
			
		

> Judging by the first document, I'm not sure even _they_ understand what a canteen is:
> 
> To me, that sounds like a cafeteria or corner store; not a Cpl on a TCAT who wants to sell some pop and chips for a few months while he's on light duties (which is typically who staffs a canteen).



You want to look in CFP 110 for the guidelines.  I believe that the "threshold" is something like $100.00 in sales per year.  What's to stop you from doing this?  Simple, your CO.  A "Canteen" is definied as "Canteen – an NPP activity that is not part of CANEX, is run by full or part-time staff, has posted hours of operations, purchases at wholesale and sells at retail, and collects and remits tax."   Oh and YES, you do have to collect "TAX" and also account for and remit that as part of the operation.

You can set it up.  But at some point in time, PSP or your local Compt Office will get wind of it, they always do and then your CO will be called to task and asked why a Canteen is being operated within their unit lines and who authorized it.

So unless you want to do it by the book, it's pretty much not worth the effort.  I have belonged to units/sections that ran "small" canteens, selling coffee, pop, chips, etc.  That was until the Canteen Police shut it down.

And just what was it that created this downward spiral you ask?

"2602.5 Unregulated Activities and Internal Competition. A 1997 Chief of Review Services audit found that a significant number of re-sale outlets (Unit canteens, wet canteens and „stand easys‟) were operating outside the bounds of departmental policy. They were neither operating IAW the rules and regulations governing public and NPP support for military activities nor were they in compliance with the departmental provision of services policy (DNDP 55). In January 1998, the CDS directed that all activities that take place on Bases / Wings / Units are to be conducted as part of the Defence Services Program within the Public accountability framework, or as a properly authorized NPP activity as part of a national NPP program (such as CANEX, SISIP FS) or under the Base / Wing / Unit Fund, mess or museum and accounted for within the NPP accountability framework. Any other activities were to cease (e.g. Unit canteens). At the same time, the CDS directed that internal NPP competition was to be minimized, that is, NPP entities were not to establish programs and activities in competition with other, existing or national NPP programs and activities. It is important that an appropriate balance be struck between serving our members and generating revenue so that Base / Wing / Unit funds can continue to play a pivotal role in enhancing the quality of life in military communities."


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## Fishbone Jones (29 Apr 2014)

We ran a very small one out of a locker in our troop area, Petawawa circa 1976.

Yup, one day the civie CANEX enforcers showed up, unannounced to the Regiment, MPs in tow, demanded the locker be opened or they would force it, took our 5 or 6 chocky bars, a few bags of chips and about a dozen pops.

They also took our coffee can with less than $20 in it.


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## Eye In The Sky (29 Apr 2014)

That's funny _and_ pathetic all at the same time.


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## Eye In The Sky (29 Apr 2014)

Occam said:
			
		

> Probably nothing that you need to worry about at this point.  When the facility was first taken over by CFB Halifax, it was managed by a retired Navy Chief, who ran the place like a tight ship.  They had sailors tripping over each other to volunteer for weekend work parties to fix buildings, clear brush, and just general labour.  The place was booked solid most of the time with people making very favourable reports on the facility.
> 
> When PSP took over, the old Navy Chief was pushed out by a bean counter who promptly raised the cottage and camping prices through the roof, ended the "reward" program for volunteer work parties, and basically turned the place on its ear.  Occupancy rates dropped like a rock because it was no longer priced attractively to compete with similar facilities.
> 
> I'm not sure what it's like now, but it had potential to be a real gem in the crown of the Navy.  I'd be curious to know if it ever reached that status.



http://www.cg.cfpsa.ca/cg-pc/Halifax/EN/FallsLake/Pages/Rates.aspx

I used to enjoy Falls Lake.  I went once 10 years back or so, just camping, and didn't really like it that much.  Staff weren't overly friendly, it was noisy and I haven't been back and don't really even think of the place now when taking off for a weekend.  Even the cabins, you have to bring your own linen and pillows nowadays or "rent" them from the facility.  

For a few extra bucks, you can get some nice tent sites right on the water at Porters Lake PP.


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## The Anti-Royal (29 Apr 2014)

Here's how my old unit (un-named of course), got around the PSP/CFMWS bull#^$t.

We had weekly barbecues with the responsibility for its conduct (buying suppies, cooking and clean-up) assigned to the sub-units on a monthly basis.

Leftover supplies were stored in the QM, in a fridge/freezer purchased by the unit fund.  The barbecues weren't fancy - burgers, hotdogs and the occasional mess of bratwurst.

A crapload of $$ went into the unit fund, subsidizing most social functions to the tune of 80% or more.

The unit fund constitution was the governing document.


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## DAA (29 Apr 2014)

The Anti-Royal said:
			
		

> Here's how my old unit (un-named of course), got around the PSP/CFMWS bull#^$t.
> 
> We had weekly barbecues with the responsibility for its conduct (buying suppies, cooking and clean-up) assigned to the sub-units on a monthly basis.
> 
> ...



That technically wouldn't be a "unit fund".  Regretably, Unit Funds are also controlled by PSP and there are restrictions on how that money is spent and it also must be accounted for.


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## Tibbson (29 Apr 2014)

The Anti-Royal said:
			
		

> Here's how my old unit (un-named of course), got around the PSP/CFMWS bull#^$t.
> 
> We had weekly barbecues with the responsibility for its conduct (buying suppies, cooking and clean-up) assigned to the sub-units on a monthly basis.
> 
> ...



Call it what you want but the fact it went on, undetected and unchallenged, was more good luck then good management.  I've seen ops like that, $2 "dress down Fridays" (not run as part of the United Way initiatives) and office coffee pots at 25 cents a cup being shut down or investigated because it didnt operate under the PSP umbrella.   Funny how the system seems to worry more about such operations more so then IR fraud or travel card misuse.


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## DAA (29 Apr 2014)

Schindler's Lift said:
			
		

> Call it what you want but the fact it went on, undetected and unchallenged, was more good luck then good management.  I've seen ops like that, $2 "dress down Fridays" (not run as part of the United Way initiatives) and office coffee pots at 25 cents a cup being shut down or investigated because it didnt operate under the PSP umbrella.   Funny how the system seems to worry more about such operations more so then IR fraud or travel card misuse.



All in the name of morale, rah rah rah, let's do something good for each other, lend a hand to those less fortunate, etc, etc, etc.  All's fine and dandy, until that one person doesn't get their "veggie burger" at the BBQ, a show of hands to support a local charity sets that one person off on a tanget and heaven forbid, "I'm the CO and I will decide what's best for that money".  It only takes ONE dissenting voice to bring the entire house of cards down, no matter how well it's run, organized or managed.

However, now that we have batted this one around the park, my advice to Crispy Bacon........

Contact your local PSP Office and just "float" the question of "Our Unit/Section is thinking about possibily starting up a small, very small, canteen only for our unit/section members.  So I am wondering just what is involved and what we might be required to do, if you decide to do this at all."

Then you can at least, see for yourself, just what's involved in the process.  And I'm sure they will tell you what the implications are if you ignore them and go it alone.   Never hurts to ask.......


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## The Anti-Royal (29 Apr 2014)

DAA said:
			
		

> That technically wouldn't be a "unit fund".  Regretably, Unit Funds are also controlled by PSP and there are restrictions on how that money is spent and it also must be accounted for.



Why isn't it a unit fund, or a proper means of raising money for the unit fund?

PSP may issue the over-riding policy about expenditures and accountability, but our unit fund committee (of which I was a member, along with fair representation from across the spectrum of ranks) decided how the money was raised and spent.

And to address a couple of comments above:

a.  neither of my two COs inserted the smallest bit of their fingers in decisions made by the committee.  Perhaps that's an anomaly . . .

b.  my unit was quite small and everyone knew each other very well.  I submit that all members felt comfortable enough expressing their views to the committee, and had confidence that those views would be considered and decisions would be made that reflected the interests of the unit as a whole.  That may not be possible in other organizations.


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## DAA (29 Apr 2014)

The Anti-Royal said:
			
		

> Why isn't it a unit fund, or a proper means of raising money for the unit fund?
> 
> PSP may issue the over-riding policy about expenditures and accountability, but our unit fund committee (of which I was a member, along with fair representation from across the spectrum of ranks) decided how the money was raised and spent.
> 
> ...



Not disagreeing with what you did or how you went about doing things, it does happen from time to time.  But a "Unit Fund", I do believe, is governed by PSP and I think that PSP also holds the monies, which your unit is "accountable" to PSP for and you are required to report both revenue and expenses.  I'd have to check to be certain.

But I would really tend to lean towards the side of "If your unit is not dealing with PSP, when it comes to your "Unit Fund", then it probably is not a recognized "Unit Fund".

You can always forge ahead and then if the question(s) come to light, oooooopppsssss.  Didn't realize that......   :dunno:


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## The Anti-Royal (29 Apr 2014)

DAA said:
			
		

> Not disagreeing with what you did or how you went about doing things, it does happen from time to time.  But a "Unit Fund", I do believe, is governed by PSP and I think that PSP also holds the monies, which your unit is "accountable" to PSP for and you are required to report both revenue and expenses.  I'd have to check to be certain.
> 
> But I would really tend to lean towards the side of "If your unit is not dealing with PSP, when it comes to your "Unit Fund", then it probably is not a recognized "Unit Fund".



We may be on the verge of having a violent agreement.   

I agree that unit funds, and the one to which I referred in particular, are *governed* by a number of policies (CFMWS/PSP being one of them) but are *operated* by unit fund committees.  In our case, PSP did *not* hold the funds.  Our unit had its own bank account, and reported revenues and expenditures regularly.  Minutes of unit fund committee meetings were also forwarded to the appropriate authorities.

It was certainly a "recognized" fund.  Nothing was hidden - from anyone.

That said, the advice offered above to seek PSP advice before doing anything is sound.


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## Griffon (29 Apr 2014)

DAA said:
			
		

> Not disagreeing with what you did or how you went about doing things, it does happen from time to time.  But a "Unit Fund", I do believe, is governed by PSP and I think that PSP also holds the monies, which your unit is "accountable" to PSP for and you are required to report both revenue and expenses.  I'd have to check to be certain.
> 
> But I would really tend to lean towards the side of "If your unit is not dealing with PSP, when it comes to your "Unit Fund", then it probably is not a recognized "Unit Fund".


Unit funds are governed by NPP policies, and are normally managed by a unit commitee that submits financial information to NPF Accounts. Revenues, expenses, and inventories must be reported. Unit purchasers are required to take a course to be issued a credit card, as authorized by the CO, to make purchases. Receipts are to be submitted to NPF accounts monthly for reconciliation. NPF does not take a cut of revenues, but they do ensure that GST/HST is paid on profits. It is a bit of a headache, but it's manageable, even within the rules. Funds are to be held by NPF Accounts as well, in a deprecate unit account. 

At least this is how things were two years ago, the last time I served on a unit fund commitee.


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## Tibbson (29 Apr 2014)

The Anti-Royal said:
			
		

> We may be on the verge of having a violent agreement.
> 
> I agree that unit funds, and the one to which I referred in particular, are *governed* by a number of policies (CFMWS/PSP being one of them) but are *operated* by unit fund committees.  In our case, PSP did *not* hold the funds.  Our unit had its own bank account, and reported revenues and expenditures regularly.  Minutes of unit fund committee meetings were also forwarded to the appropriate authorities.
> 
> ...



Then it sounds, on the surface of it all at least, that you were operating IAW NPF rules and regs which is the whole point of the discussion and advice to the original poster.


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## DAA (29 Apr 2014)

The Anti-Royal said:
			
		

> We may be on the verge of having a violent agreement.
> 
> Our unit had its own bank account,  It was certainly a "recognized" fund.  Nothing was hidden - from anyone.
> 
> That said, the advice offered above to seek PSP advice before doing anything is sound.



Just giving my advice, based on experience, nothing more, so I definitely don't take offence.    

But here is another indicator by the comment "Our unit had its own bank account".  Big NO NO, so I am led to believe......

You just might want to convene a committee meeting to discuss your Unit Fund and then decide just how to go from there.  Before you talk to PSP.  Gotta have those "ducks" lined up......


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## The Anti-Royal (29 Apr 2014)

DAA said:
			
		

> Just giving my advice, based on experience, nothing more, so I definitely don't take offence to being told to "P" off.
> 
> But here is another indicator by the comment "Our unit had its own bank account".  Big NO NO, so I am led to believe......
> 
> You just might want to convene a committee meeting to discuss your Unit Fund and then decide just how to go from there.  Before you talk to PSP.  Gotta have those "ducks" lined up......



PM inbound.

It's a bit late to convene a committee meeting, as I retired eight months ago.


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## shootemup604 (30 Apr 2014)

Could a canteen be run as a sub-committee of the kitshop or mess, or to even distance it further, as part of a branch or regimental association?


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## DAA (30 Apr 2014)

shootemup604 said:
			
		

> Could a canteen be run as a sub-committee of the kitshop or mess, or to even distance it further, as part of a branch or regimental association?



Within the confines of a Defence Establishment (ie; on a Base/Wing/Station, DND Building or buidling used by DND).  No.


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## CountDC (30 Apr 2014)

DAA said:
			
		

> But here is another indicator by the comment "Our unit had its own bank account".  Big NO NO, so I am led to believe......



The unit can have its own business account for the unit fund if it wants to and is no longer required to leave funds with NPP.  NPF/NPP just this week transferred funds from a dormant account they were holding for us to our current bank account.  They contacted us about it and gave us the choice of leaving it with them or transferring it to our bank account.  I selected option 2 and had the CO approve it.

There are yearly audit reports that have to be submitted by sometime in Jul of each year and they go through it with a fine tooth comb.

Prior comment made on only taking one to ruin things is very true.  Use to have the snowball draw setup on the OR counter at one unit years ago until a mbr clearing in asked where the lottery licence was.  Draw gone right then.


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