# Military Making Pitch to Aboriginal Youth ($1,200 bonus for aboriginals)



## scm77 (26 May 2005)

Military making pitch to aboriginal youth
Last updated May 25 2005 05:08 PM ADT
CBC News
FREDERICTON â â€œ The Canadian military has started a public relations and recruiting campaign in an effort to attract more aboriginal people to its ranks.

Lt.-Col. Bruce Parks says native people make up just five per cent of the armed forces right now. He says the military needs to do a better rob reflecting the native population in Canada.

"It's a concern when we don't have the proper representation," Parks said at CFB Gagetown, where the new recruitment campaign was being unveiled.

"In the Department of National Defence we would like to see the percentage at least equal to the percentage of aboriginals in within Canada. That's our goal and we are moving towards that goal."

A specific target for aboriginal recruits has not been set.

But the military's Aboriginal Entry Program is offering financial incentives to boost the numbers.

Native people who sign up will receive $1,200 for successfully completing the pre-recruitment training course.

The military is also working to forge ties with aboriginal people in the far north of Canada, where current recruitment levels are low.

Sgt. Charles Paul says he hopes to use his own experience as an aboriginal person to encourage others to join up.

"It's a great way of life," Paul said.

"There is a great opportunity to join the military see the world and finish their education."

Paul also said the military gives native people in struggling communities the chance to escape from poverty.

http://nb.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=nb-recruiting20050525&ref=rss
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Sorry if I'm going in over my head here, but am I the only one who thinks that the military should only be looking for the best people for the job, not the people who are going to best reflect the diversity of Canada?


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## Ex-Dragoon (26 May 2005)

I know several Native Canadians in the CF and their service has been nothing but top notch and exemplary.


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## Infanteer (26 May 2005)

That's it CF - throw money at something as a fix.... :

I like how we have incentives based upon ethnicity now - so much for "We are all Green", or whatever that line was.

The answer isn't money for Natives, it's image.  Desmond Morton's Understanding Canadian Defence does a pretty good job of addressing the issue:  



> _2. Mohawks living near Montreal have their own proud warrior tradition, backed by war memorials for all of Canada's twentieth-century wars.  Today many Mohawks do terrifying work, such as building high steel towers in New York.  Mohawks want the young men of their community to get military experience.  *These days, Canadian Forces' "basic" isn't good enough, Dr Taiaiake Alfred of the Kahnewahke reserve told me.  Mohawk warriors choose the US Marine Corps boot camp because American Lethernecks make no-nonsense soldiers.*_
> 
> pg - 127



Answer - let's move away from the image of the goofy, smiling recruit and the notion of the "peacekeeper" - Afghanistan is the start for us.


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## Ex-Dragoon (26 May 2005)

Agreed Infanteer, I was under the impression from scm77s post he did not think it was worth the CFs time to try and recruit Natives into the CF.



> Sorry if I'm going in over my head here, but am I the only one who thinks that the *military should only be looking for the best people * for the job, not the people who are going to best reflect the diversity of Canada?



My reasoning is bolded.


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## scm77 (26 May 2005)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Agreed Infanteer, I was under the impression from scm77s post he did not think it was worth the CFs time to try and recruit Natives into the CF.



That's not what I meant at all.  Sorry if it sounded like that.

What I meant was shouldn't they be targeting the BEST people for the job regardless of race/religion/gender

Infanteer said


> I like how we have incentives based upon ethnicity now - so much for "We are all Green", or whatever that line was.



That basically echoes my thoughts.  I don't care if the person is black, white, brown or purple, male or female, gay or straight.  They should be recruited based on their skills and performance, not given a bonus incentive because there skin is a different colour then the skin of the majority of other soldiers).

Hopefully that's clearer now. Sorry for the confusion 

Edited to remove a question mark that I put in the wrong spot :-[


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## Brad Sallows (26 May 2005)

From a brief look at StatsCan's web site, 2001 census data indicate about 4.5% of Canadians claimed North American Indian or Metis heritage.   Unless the population balance has shifted violently in the past four years, a 5% representation in the CF would be _over-representation_.   Is that still a problem, or is the 5% figure cited incorrect?


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## canadianblue (26 May 2005)

Wow, its great that people will get an added bonus simply for having the right skin pigment. Best person for the job regardless of what they look like.


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## John Nayduk (26 May 2005)

Dare I say it out load; sounds racist to me.  Someone miss their SHARP training.


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## muskrat89 (26 May 2005)

I agree ARG - either everyone is equal, or they are not. This is the kind of stuff that I hate...


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## NavComm (26 May 2005)

I wonder what study identified this as a good way to spend tax dollars? I don't think it's racist for other at-risk youth or minority groups to feel offended by this offer based soley on race and nothing else. Go to any inner city school in Vancouver and you will see poor white kids, chinese kids, korean kids, black kids, etc.

There are plenty of disadvantaged youth and plenty of minority groups that could benefit from military training and the brotherhood/sisterhood that goes along with that life. And $1,200 would be a nice incentive for them too. I think it's just another way of the government acting *as if* they care. (dare I say buying votes?). I have no problem with wanting more representation from minority groups. If they want to attract a certain group into the military then so be it, but I hope it is being funded from the Ministry responsible for that group, not from the defense budget.


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## DBA (26 May 2005)

I disagree. A few incentives at the start of the recruiting pipe specifically targeted at trying to increase the representation of some groups is acceptable to me. It's miles ahead of quota systems where standards are lowered for some groups so some politically correct mix is achieved. Such a system if overdone could skew the applicant pool but $1500 just isn't that large of a pile of money.


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## DBA (26 May 2005)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> From a brief look at StatsCan's web site, 2001 census data indicate about 4.5% of Canadians claimed North American Indian or Metis heritage.  Unless the population balance has shifted violently in the past four years, a 5% representation in the CF would be _over-representation_.  Is that still a problem, or is the 5% figure cited incorrect?



I agree. By not including the target figure and how it was arrived at the article is lacking. Such information has to available as it would be very dishonest to ask for support in solving a problem that hasn't even been confirmed as existing. Leaving it out of the article or not researching deeper to find the information shows a lack of judgement on the part of the CBC. 

A guess on my part is with the aboriginal population increasing faster than the general population the % will shift some over the years. Perhaps as well the numbers entering the forces each year has been declining and while the current figure is good looking at graphs of future trends shows a decline. Thats just guesses however I am very much interested in the actual target and how it was arrived at.


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## MG34 (26 May 2005)

It's a bad policy any way you look at it or try and justify it,why give a bonus to one group but not another?? That is not an equal policy why shouldn't all recruits be offered the same. Pathetic truely pathetic.


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## Infanteer (26 May 2005)

MG34 said:
			
		

> It's a bad policy any way you look at it or try and justify it,why give a bonus to one group but not another?? That is not an equal policy why shouldn't all recruits be offered the same. Pathetic truely pathetic.



Exactly.

Like I said earlier, toughen up the image and training, and the right people will come....


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## scm77 (26 May 2005)

Another Recce Guy said:
			
		

> Dare I say it out load; sounds racist to me.



I was going to say that but was afraid to, but now that I see I am not alone...

I think that yes, it is racist to pay someone doing the same job more ($1200 bonus) because of their skin colour/ethnic background.


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## Brad Sallows (26 May 2005)

Note that the article (if true - has anyone verified it?) claims the bounty is paid for completion of pre-recruitment training.  Am I correct to assume this is some form of military socialization aimed at natives?  If so, what other identifiable groups with non-military cultural traditions or distrust of the military are under-represented in the CF, and why are they not treated to equal consideration?


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## Michael OLeary (26 May 2005)

On line references to the Canadian Forces Aboriginal Entry Program (CFAEP) make no inference that this is a "bonus" for the "same" work. The candidates, after an initial selection process, attend the Pre-Recruit Training Course (PRTC) Farnham as civilians and receive a bonus for completing three weeks introductory training before they complete the recruiting process - which helps them and us ensure we are recruiting candidates most likely to survive and enjoy military life.

http://www.recruiting.forces.gc.ca/engraph/news/details_e.aspx?id=296
http://static.highbeam.com/w/windspeaker/april012000/canadianforceshasnewaboriginalentryprogram/

The program falls under initiatives to meet the requirements of the Employment Equity Act:

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/E-5.401/



> EMPLOYMENT EQUITY
> 
> Employer Obligations
> Employer's duty
> ...



http://www.psc-cfp.gc.ca/centres/definitions_and_notes_e.htm#d


> Employment Equity Designated Groups
> 
> Employment equity designated groups as defined by the Employment Equity Act include women, Aboriginal peoples, persons with disabilities and members of visible minorities.


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## Old Sweat (26 May 2005)

IWGAM*

It would gag a maggot.


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## mbhabfan (26 May 2005)

I would love to see someone like Paul Martin stand up and announce a $1200 bonus for young white males to join up.  I don't understand how giving aboriginals $1200 isn't a racist  stance if doing the same for a white or whatever other race would be.  Don't get me wrong I have no problems with aboriginals, or people of any other origin becoming members of the CF or any other work force for that matter I just don't think we as taxpayers should have to bribe them to achieve the result.


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## kitrad1 (26 May 2005)

mbhabfan said:
			
		

> I would love to see someone like Paul Martin stand up and announce a $1200 bonus for young white males to join up.   I don't understand how giving aboriginals $1200 isn't a racist   stance if doing the same for a white or whatever other race would be.   Don't get me wrong I have no problems with aboriginals, or people of any other origin becoming members of the CF or any other work force for that matter I just don't think we as taxpayers should have to bribe them to achieve the result.



So all of those high school kids who sign up for the paid Army Reserve Co-op programs (and at the end of the semester they elect not to stay in the reserves)... You would call that what....? Or yeah, and when we send cadets to summer camp and give them a training bonus, that is.....what?

Clearly, most on this thread don't understand the history or the aim of the CFAEP and in fact diversity issues and challenges in general.  Do some research. Read up on the program and its history. Veterans Affairs has an excellent book entitled Native Soldiers Foreign Battlefields that chronicles Aboriginal achievements in Canada's 20th century wars.

And cut out the qualifying statement "Don't get me wrong, I have no problems with..."  This statement is easily interpreted as bigotry.


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## PPCLI MCpl (26 May 2005)

kitrad1 said:
			
		

> Or yeah, and when we send cadets to summer camp and give them a training bonus, that is.....what?



That is just one benefit of an outstanding program provided for Canada's youth.  It's usually enough to cover toiletries, sundry items and some entertainment.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (26 May 2005)

Quote,
_So all of those high school kids who sign up for the paid Army Reserve Co-op programs (and at the end of the semester they elect not to stay in the reserves)... You would call that what....? Or yeah, and when we send cadets to summer camp and give them a training bonus, that is.....what?_

...that is....something anyone can qualify for....the way it should be.

_Clearly, most on this thread don't understand the history or the aim of the CFAEP and in fact diversity issues and challenges in general.   Do some research. Read up on the program and its history. Veterans Affairs has an excellent book entitled Native Soldiers Foreign Battlefields that chronicles Aboriginal achievements in Canada's 20th century wars_.

...did they NEED a bonus?

_And cut out the qualifying statement "Don't get me wrong, I have no problems with..."   This statement is easily interpreted as bigotry._

....yea, one can interpret anything they wish if they want it to be so. :


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## Kat Stevens (26 May 2005)

I was going to say exactly the same thing Bruce, you trumped me again!

CHIMO,  Kat


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## Bruce Monkhouse (26 May 2005)

Bruce Monkhouse    - Posts: 2,575

Kat Stevens        -  Posts: 336

...practice, practice, practice.........


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## Kat Stevens (26 May 2005)

I would add one thing, save the flames for the end. Yes, aboriginal soldiers fought bravely and honourably in both World Wars and Korea (Tommy Prince was a Sapper first!).  So did Canadians of every other ethnic group....see where I'm going, here?

CHIMO,  Kat


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## PPCLI MCpl (26 May 2005)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Tommy Prince was a Sapper first!



Thems fightin' words.


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## mbhabfan (26 May 2005)

I am not a bigot in any way shape or form....I am white 31 years old why won't the government give me 1200 for joining up.   If it were reversed it would be considered all over the country as a racist policy...so why is this new program not racism???   I am all for bonuses but for every person, red, white, black, or green for that matter.   

PS...thanks Bruce and Kat for the help.  I don't see my view as bigotry at all.


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## Cloud Cover (26 May 2005)

If $1200 is all it costs to yank someone away from the temptation to sniff glue and gas, from poverty, illness, suicide and jail, then I am happy to pay. For 1200 we would get a positive role model who contributes selflessly to community and to country. I would say that is the best $1200 a head the feds ever spent on this group of  young people.  So, I suspect a catch or a trap.   

Nevertheless, I say give it a try and see what happens.


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## x-grunt (26 May 2005)

Many Aboriginals have roadblocks that are difficult to overcome, in general. Admittedly some non-natives do too - but Natives on reserves face these hardships as the rule, not the exception. This is extremely hard to convince most people of unless they have lived it. 

I think the idea of some program for native youth on reserves to see what the CF is like is okay. I'm not convinced the current method is the right one, but I see nothing wrong with the general concept.


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## SHELLDRAKE!! (26 May 2005)

I don't understand how this policy (even if its unsubstantiated) can not be looked upon as racist. IMHO the paperwork done when enrolling in the CF should contain no references to a persons sex or race. As any job should be, the first ones hired should be based on who meets the CF's prerequesites first.

 If the governments case is in the past we have not had many (female, native, klingon, or whatever you would class a minority) maybee its because traditionally the "minorities" didn't have an interest in joining.

 I am all for recruiting for the CF, based on those that are interested, no matter who they are.This would raise the retention rate and help stave off problems such as those that were given a bonus to entice them to join but didn't really want to be there.

 This "signing" bonus is so rediculouse to me that I wonder whats next? A bonus for signing concienciose objectors because they are a minority in the CF?


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## TCBF (26 May 2005)

"If you need to be bribed into joining the CF...makes you wonder what kind of person they are."

- You mean like Doctors and Lawyers?

Tom


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## Cloud Cover (26 May 2005)

TCBF said:
			
		

> "If you need to be bribed into joining the CF...makes you wonder what kind of person they are."
> 
> - You mean like Doctors and Lawyers?
> 
> Tom



Electronics technicians, powerline technicians, journeyman trades, retention pay for fighter pilots and the list goes on. 

This is all so much bullshit. Less than a few hundred people will take advantage of the program. A bribe is an exchange of money in return for an illegal or illicit purpose, usually criminal in nature.


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## mbhabfan (26 May 2005)

doctors and lawyers........come on is that an ethnic background now?????? Please people give examples that make sense.


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## Kat Stevens (26 May 2005)

So, would an aboriginal doctor get an additional $1200..... ???

Kat


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## SHELLDRAKE!! (26 May 2005)

Many Aboriginals have roadblocks that are difficult to overcome, in general. Admittedly some non-natives do too - but Natives on reserves face these hardships as the rule, not the exception. This is extremely hard to convince most people of unless they have lived it. 



I agree that there are those on reserves or even small towns that have no idea what the CF has to offer, what about taking that $1200 bonus proposed and use it to open more recruiting centers and a recruiting outreach for outlying areas.

 My gripe is we will inevitably be getting recruits who don't want to be there wasting the few defence dollars we have.


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## Infanteer (27 May 2005)

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> Electronics technicians, powerline technicians, journeyman trades, retention pay for fighter pilots and the list goes on.
> 
> This is all so much bullshit. Less than a few hundred people will take advantage of the program. A bribe is an exchange of money in return for an illegal or illicit purpose, usually criminal in nature.



No kidding - I guess every RMC recruit falls into that bucket as well - hey wait, the CF gave me some coin for university, does that mean I'm in that boat as well?



			
				SHELLDRAKE!! said:
			
		

> I agree that there are those on reserves or even small towns that have no idea what the CF has to offer, what about taking that $1200 bonus proposed and use it to open more recruiting centers and a recruiting outreach for outlying areas.



Now that, my friend, is a good idea.


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## x-grunt (27 May 2005)

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> If $1200 is all it costs to yank someone away from the temptation to sniff glue...



I wish. It's a rough go on some of these reserves. Poverty and hopelessness is hard to overcome. I have many friends and acquintances in or from isolated reserves, the issues are appalling and complex. I imagine this CF course is an attempt to reach those with little prospects and under-employed in isolated regions.

My concern is that the 3 week course may just be a holiday for many that gives them some quick cash. But then again, maybe I'm talking out my rump, I have no experience with this program.



> we don't NEED aboriginal soldiers, but we NEED doctors


2332piper: Actually, much as I am admittedly a bit of a Native advocate you make a good point. The CF is not a social welfare program, and the Native representation seems to reflect the national population.


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## mbhabfan (27 May 2005)

I don't think anyone on here will disagree that things are tough on some reserves and they face real challenges.  Nobody is trying to discount that fact but I don't believe that because I am white I should not be entitled to a bonus if I came from a different location even IF the situation were the same as far as poverty etc. goes.  I am not in that situation but it is my point.  Why not offer it to any person under certain income levels instead of calling it an aboriginal program call it something else and open it to all citizens.


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## Cloud Cover (27 May 2005)

mbhabfan said:
			
		

> I am white I should not be entitled to a bonus if I came from a different location even IF the situation were the same as far as poverty etc. goes.  I am not in that situation but it is my point.  Why not offer it to any person under certain income levels instead of calling it an aboriginal program call it something else and open it to all citizens.



You hit the nail on the head. The answer is because the government owes no duty to you as a white person, unless you are part of another group - such as gay or transgender. Seems to me the CF has made provision for that sort of thing, why not Aboriginals?  Social and economic status is not yet a recognized duty, but it soon will be.  The theory may defy common sense and perhaps our sense of "fairness" in the ordinary sense of the word, but that is the state of the law as I understand it, FWIW.


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## Michael OLeary (27 May 2005)

mbhabfan said:
			
		

> I don't think anyone on here will disagree that things are tough on some reserves and they face real challenges.  Nobody is trying to discount that fact but I don't believe that because I am white I should not be entitled to a bonus if I came from a different location even IF the situation were the same as far as poverty etc. goes.  I am not in that situation but it is my point.  Why not offer it to any person under certain income levels instead of calling it an aboriginal program call it something else and open it to all citizens.



bo ·nus
   1. Something given or paid in addition to what is usual or expected.
   2. A sum of money or an equivalent given to an employee in addition to the employee's usual compensation.


While I understand the points being made on the perception of selective opportunities for minorities, and still must acknowledge that the department is held by law to the Employment Equity Act; $1200 for three weeks of work is less than the rate of pay for a Private Incentive 1 - how exactly does that translate into a "bonus."

Would it be better described as a paid work trial program?


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## x-grunt (27 May 2005)

mbhabfan said:
			
		

> I don't think anyone on here will disagree that things are tough on some reserves and they face real challenges.   Nobody is trying to discount that fact.



I understand that. No problem here. But I honestly think that the majority of non-natives really don't get the picture. A down and out white person has it tough of course, but native people have to overcome lots more as a rule, then the average non-native. And a lot of northern Natives are trapped in a small fly-in communities with a corrupt council, no work, little prospects and a 90% addiction rate. It's a different world then most Canadians have.

Nonetheless, see my last post where I agree that the CF is not a social welfare agency.


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## Cloud Cover (27 May 2005)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> bo ·nus
> 1. Something given or paid in addition to what is usual or expected.
> 2. A sum of money or an equivalent given to an employee in addition to the employee's usual compensation.



This is a good pick up on the use of lightning rod language by the media. I noticed the CF pers interviewed did not use the word, it was the CBC who described it this way. 
I want to see the regs establishing this policy as I hardly think it is a "bonus" or that the $1200 is even intended to be a "bonus."


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## FastEddy (27 May 2005)

[quote author=[color=black][/color]

What ever happened to the days when we joined the Armed Forces, because we wanted to.


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## 1feral1 (27 May 2005)

Hummm, what about a 'joining bonus' for all, afterwards, everyone is Canadian and are supposed to be equal. I'll be a fence sitter in this decison, but a 'bonus' given because of the colour of ones skin is just not on. With my +18 yrs as a CF member, I worked along side many first nations people, and other minorities no matter what our background was, we had the common colour of our uniforms, and equal respect for each other, after all we were all the same.

Wes


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## Fishbone Jones (27 May 2005)

x-grunt said:
			
		

> And a lot of northern Natives are trapped in a small fly-in communities with a corrupt council, no work, little prospects and a 90% addiction rate. It's a different world then most Canadians have.



But it's easier to stay there, collecting the government bribe, than say "Bullshit, I'm not taking this!!" So why don't THEY do something about it, instead of living the status quo, and waiting on US to fix it. I don't buy the argument of the white man's, government's or the tooth fairy's fault. You respect YOURSELF and do what has to be done to raise YOURSELF up, or shut up, and wither on the vine. I owe nobody MY existence, and I bear no fault for their's, and I refuse to be held responsible for their plight. I had nothing to do with it. If you want equal treatment, you fall in line and compete with the rest.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (27 May 2005)

Quote from Michael O'Leary,
_While I understand the points being made on the perception of selective opportunities for minorities, and still must acknowledge that the department is held by law to the Employment Equity Act;_

.....and if I'm not mistaken, earlier in the thread, the %'s are about bang on.........I know something of the act and I've never read anything to suggest minorities should be over-represented either.......


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## jmacleod (27 May 2005)

Aboriginal and Visable Minorities should not be offered a bonus to enlist and serve in the Canadian
Forces, unless the offer is extended to all potential recruits. There is another area of activity extended
to Aboriginals - the allocation of millions of dollars in access to contracts and sub-contracts to paricipate
in the Maritime Helicopter Project (MHP) a major crown project that generates Industrial Regional
Benefits, designed to offset loss of jobs in Canada, when a major crown purchase goes offshore. We
knew years ago that a special offer to participate in technological support for the MHP would be part
of the contracting process extended to Aboriginals, so we advocated that Aboriginal youth be given
access to technological training, particularly in the aircraft maintenance and overhaul sector as defined
in Canadian Air Regulations (CARS), as well as metal working and machining. There was little response
from bureaucrats in various Federal and Provincial agencies, thus the Aboriginal sector on the
whole in Canada, do not have the skilled or semi skilled resources to respond effectively if at all. We
are all supportive of "equal opportunity", but common sense must prevail. MacLeod


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## Ex-Dragoon (27 May 2005)

Wesley H. Allen said:
			
		

> Hummm, what about a 'joining bonus' for all, afterwards, everyone is Canadian and are supposed to be equal. I'll be a fence sitter in this decison, but a 'bonus' given because of the colour of ones skin is just not on. With my +18 yrs as a CF member, I worked along side many first nations people, and other minorities no matter what our background was, we had the common colour of our uniforms, and equal respect for each other, after all we were all the same.
> 
> Wes



Wes I am curious, do the Aus/NZ actively try to recruit (or even entice) the Aboriginals and Maori into their respective armed forces in a manner similiar to this?


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## Edward Campbell (27 May 2005)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Wes I am curious, do the Aus/NZ actively try to recruit (or even entice) the Aboriginals and Maori into their respective armed forces in a manner similiar to this?



Nobody asked me, but ...

My information is a few years old (but post retirement).

First: most Maori are better integrated into NZ society than many rural Canadian aboriginals and, it appears to me, fewer urban Maori are as _disadvantaged_ (for whatever reason) as urban Canadian aboriginals.

Second: the NZ armed forces actively recruit Maori â â€œ no quotas when I was there last but many incentives.

The NZ armed forces have and promote _Maori cultural groups_ who preserve/demonstrate Maori traditions within ships and units, act as _cultural ambassadors_ when ships/units deploy overseas and provide a social 'base' for young Maori servicemen â â€œ which includes mentoring and family support.

There is (was, a few years ago) a certain pro-Maori prejudice in the NZ forces. The Maori were a warrior 'race' and the warrior traditions remain strong.  Many, many Maori have excelled in sports and the military and the military likes to think that both it and the individual Maori benefit from a system which preserves and promotes Maori traditions.

There is an anti-Maori _warrior culture_ element in NZ, too.  Many New Zealanders oppose the idea that Maoris are _natural_ warriors, etc â â€œ it goes against the strong pacifist/isolationist trend amongst many Kiwis â â€œ the unreconstructed hippies, etc.

If you get a chance to lay alongside a NZ warship, Ex-Dragoon, you will probably be treated to Maori displays, etc.

I met a good many aboriginal NCOs and soldiers (but few officers â â€œ I cannot recall any) in Australia, but I have no idea how the proportion in the army related to the proportion in society at large.  I do recall being told that the Maori were represented in the NZ forces, all ranks, including officers, at levels above their 'share' of the population.


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## kincanucks (27 May 2005)

Oh how I wanted not to get involved in this discussion but perhaps I can add a little perspective to the CF Aboriginal Entry Program (CFAEP) and the Pre-Recruit Training Course (PRTC).   Yes, we give aboriginals 1200 dollars to come to the PRTC but it is only after successful completion of the PRTC that results in a total of 1200 dollars being paid out and broken down as folllows: 200 at the end of the first week and 400 at the end of the second week and the remainder at the end of the course.   They are not paid any other monies for attending the course and if they don't complete the required training then they don't get any money.   So doing something that would be comparable for the people that go through the regular recruiting process training would be that a recruit would only be paid when they successfully completed a week of training and after each subsequent week and if they failed out at any time they would be sent home with nothing.   So to rant and rave that the CF is paying aboriginals a bonus to join the military is pure crap.

To convince a aboriginal person who has a strong sense of community to leave their homes and travel across the country to a strange place for a few weeks is an immense feat that is a credit to our recruiters and their ability.   Imagine the work that would be needed to convince them to leave their community for three years.   Does this program work?, yes.   Does it create an great influx of aboriginals wanting to join the CF full-time?   No, but it is a start and it is a necessity if the CF is going to be a true reflection of our society.   There is much work to be done not only in attracting aboriginals but visible minorities too.

I strongly suggest that many who have posted in this thread should take some time and read and study about aboriginal history in this country and perhaps some education will open your eyes.   It certainly opened mine.


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## George Wallace (27 May 2005)

While an Instructor at the School in the mid '80s, I had the experience of instructing two Inuit candidates.   There are problems that the CF, and the rest of Canadian Society, experience when recruiting from some of our more remote communities.   Even today, there will be a great "cultural shock" experienced by such candidates who come from some of our more remote northern communities to the way that we 'Southerners' live.   We have been experimenting for years to come up with a working system to bring these people into 'our society' and understand 'our ways'.


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## TCBF (27 May 2005)

I was a MCpl teaching recruits at CFRS Cornwallis in the fall of 1984.  Our serial in 10 Pl - Ser 8448 I think - was split by the Christmas Holidays.  Everyone got sent away on leave.  Some got SA 'flips'.  Most travelled commercial.  We had an Inuit who would have needed to mortgage the entire Annapolis Valley to pay for his airfare home.  It was astronomical, and you can't drive to Frobisher Bay.  The recruits in the platoon 'passed the hat' and took up a collection to help him get home. 

In 1997, I was a Pl Comd teaching recruits at CFLRS St. Jean.  We had a PD day on Recruit Demographics and Culture, and I got to sit at a table with a Mohawk elder from the Kanawake Reserve south of Montreal  (Mercier Bridge during the Oka crisis - that IR).   She was a very interesting lady.  We talked about program and recruiting access.  I was convinced then - as now - that recruiters as a whole would rather visit Biafra than a Canadian IR.

She said:  "I wish the Armed Forces would hire more of my people."  

We have lots of money for studies, focus groups, consultants, glossy pamplets and news releases, but none for recruiting visits and targeted recruiting plans.

Remember Davis Inlet?  Canada built them a new village.  New village - old problems.  Some kid was being sent back to Neu-Davis and cried in the arms of his social worker the night before he had to go back.  A few months after being re-immersed into the local solvent-sniffing culture - he suicided.

We need a new  'Boy Soldier'  program.  I know, never happen, child soldiers and all that.  Well, we need a program that can pull Canadians - including Aboriginals - out of bad situations.   Waiting until they are seventeen is too late.  What about a year-round Army Cadet program?

No, I don't think of the CAF as a social welfare agency. I think of it as an org that has to compete not only with civvie occupations for talent, but also has to compete with plastic hoodies full of a fuel/air mixture.  

I say we let the recruiters get there first.


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## Brad Sallows (27 May 2005)

If the payment is in lieu of a regular wage for attendance on the orientation course, then "bonus" is an unfair characterization.

To judge by other comments elsewhere, perhaps more prospective recruits would benefit from such an orientation course.  The issue is whether the CF wants to try to retain urbanites who can be off-put merely by the cultural shock of basic training.


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## mbhabfan (27 May 2005)

I think a program such as this is a very valuable one...however I am still stuck on the race thing.  This type of program could be used to help any Canadian in certain situations.  It isn't a bonus it is a wage, thanks for clarifying that Kincanucks.  I haven't heard one good reason why this type of program should be limited to aboriginals.  If this were reversed and was for innercity white kids who have had it rough the media would be all over it for being a racial policy.  My point is that racism is racism no matter which way it is.


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## rcr (27 May 2005)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> If the payment is in lieu of a regular wage for attendance on the orientation course, then "bonus" is an unfair characterization.
> 
> To judge by other comments elsewhere, perhaps more prospective recruits would benefit from such an orientation course.   The issue is whether the CF wants to try to retain urbanites who can be off-put merely by the cultural shock of basic training.



I have many friends from various backgrounds who have asked if such a program exists.  A few days or weeks to be involved on some level with the CF to see what it's all about before making their decision.  Though I am an outsider, I think such a program would be beneficial to the recruiting drive.  Not trying to hijack the topic here.


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## NCRCrow (27 May 2005)

This program with the bonus was done in 1990, and the potential aboriginal recruits went to Summerside, PEI (3 weeks) and then had the choice of coming to beautiful Cornwallis.(which many did)

It worked because they started as a group and finished as one. It was then to trades training after.

They were good soldiers and recruits and we won most of sports pennants. Sadly, I have not seen any of the aboriginal recruits (friends) in my travels since around 1993. 

9034 Forged as One


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## Brad Sallows (27 May 2005)

>A few days or weeks to be involved on some level with the CF to see what it's all about before making their decision.

Back when we had easy enrollment procedures into the Reserve and SYEP, we had something like that.


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## Sapper Bloggins (27 May 2005)

recceguy said:
			
		

> But it's easier to stay there, collecting the government bribe, than say "Bullshit, I'm not taking this!!" So why don't THEY do something about it, instead of living the status quo, and waiting on US to fix it. I don't buy the argument of the white man's, government's or the tooth fairy's fault. You respect YOURSELF and do what has to be done to raise YOURSELF up, or shut up, and wither on the vine. I owe nobody MY existence, and I bear no fault for their's, and I refuse to be held responsible for their plight. I had nothing to do with it. If you want equal treatment, you fall in line and compete with the rest.



Couldn't agree more recceguy, you took the words right out of my mouth.
I'm all for diversity, but this tradition of belligerent self-pity has gotten real old.


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## NavComm (27 May 2005)

kincanucks said:
			
		

> ....  Yes, we give aboriginals 1200 dollars to come to the PRTC but it is only after successful completion of the PRTC that results in a total of 1200 dollars being paid out and broken down as folllows: 200 at the end of the first week and 400 at the end of the second week and the remainder at the end of the course.  They are not paid any other monies for attending the course and if they don't complete the required training then they don't get any money.  So doing something that would be comparable for the people that go through the regular recruiting process training would be that a recruit would only be paid when they successfully completed a week of training and after each subsequent week and if they failed out at any time they would be sent home with nothing.  So to rant and rave that the CF is paying aboriginals a bonus to join the military is pure crap.



That's still three weeks longer than other recruits get, and shouldn't everyone be given the chance to have the little pre-test to determine if the military life is for them?


> To convince a aboriginal person who has a strong sense of community to leave their homes and travel across the country to a strange place for a few weeks is an immense feat that is a credit to our recruiters and their ability.  Imagine the work that would be needed to convince them to leave their community for three years.



I should think that would apply to any young person leaving home and community for the first time, strong sense of community is not exclusive to aboriginal youth living in remote communities.



> Does this program work?, yes.  Does it create an great influx of aboriginals wanting to join the CF full-time?  No, but it is a start and it is a necessity if the CF is going to be a true reflection of our society.



But if statitistics earlier posted here are correct, aboriginals are already represented fairly, and further, other than to fill quotas what is the point? I like the idea of spending that money to open recruiting centres in less populated areas or sending recruiters to remote areas to contact all people living in remote areas, not just aboriginal peoples. One army, one colour.



> I strongly suggest that many who have posted in this thread should take some time and read and study about aboriginal history in this country and perhaps some education will open your eyes.  It certainly opened mine.



Admittedly aboriginal people have suffered a great deal. But they have also been given much in the way of support. I just see this program as a real slippery slope. There are plenty of minority groups that will claim prior bad acts should afford them the same treatment. What about descendants of japanese canadians who were interred during WWII? What about the Irish who were fed a steady diet of racism in this country? At least in the military we should be able to show our true multi-culturalism by not allowing any one group to claim more disadvantage than any other. IMHO


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## 1feral1 (27 May 2005)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Wes I am curious, do the Aus/NZ actively try to recruit (or even entice) the Aboriginals and Maori into their respective armed forces in a manner similiar to this?



In Australia many northern units are highly composed of Aboriginies, do a search for the Far North Queensland Regiment, many of the units are Active Reserve, and are actually on operations when out deep in the bush. Many Aboriginals too, are in the regular army also, and I was worked with amny over the years. Good soldiers!

I have also trained along side the "En Zed" Army, and I have seen some Maori too. So I don't know if they are singled out for recruiting, but the live local and want to be part of it.

But no race related joining bountys here.

Cheers,

Wes


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## FastEddy (28 May 2005)

NavComm said:
			
		

> That's still three weeks longer than other recruits get, and shouldn't everyone be given the chance to have the little pre-test to determine if the military life is for them?
> I should think that would apply to any young person leaving home and community for the first time, strong sense of community is not exclusive to aboriginal youth living in remote communities.
> 
> But if statitistics earlier posted here are correct, aboriginals are already represented fairly, and further, other than to fill quotas what is the point? I like the idea of spending that money to open recruiting centres in less populated areas or sending recruiters to remote areas to contact all people living in remote areas, not just aboriginal peoples. One army, one colour.
> ...




NavComm, having read this thread from end to end, I find your rebuttal to "Kincanucks" (The proclaimed
Expert on Recruitment, which has been pointed out to us ), refreshingly encompassing the sentiments of most of us.

However, I have difficulty in assigning credibility to any one in this field that cannot or will not provide answers
to simple inquires as to the Total number of CAF Recruitment applications and of that number, how many
where rejected over a 12 month period. Also what was the National annual quote for that period.


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## jmacleod (28 May 2005)

I would venture to guess that this plan did not originate in DND, but rather in the offices of the
Minister responsible for Aboriginal Affairs, Hon. Andrew Scott, MP, representing Fredericton NB.
This is essentially an enlistment incentive, not unusal in the Canadian Forces, but should not be
confined to strictly Aboriginal enlistments, unless Scott's Ministry is prepared to pay for it, without
use of scarce DND - CF financial resources. But over the period including World WarI,II, Korea,
Peace and Peace Enforcement operations, the Canadian Army in particular has enlisted many
Aboriginal soldiers, many if not most, outstanding in their service. But even a cursory glance at
training logistics, resources, instructional staff, long term goals, etc. indicate a major problem for
the hard pressed Canadian Army in particular to  achieve the ability to fill the ranks of various
units, particulary the Infantry regiments, so the Aboriginal enlistment program may not result
in additional personnel joining for what should be a long term military career. MacLeod


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## thorbahn (28 May 2005)

Does anybody know if this incentive applies to reserve force or just reg?

Also, how aboriginal would one have to be? Would just having Native status and a "green card" do it?

This may apply to a friend of mine.


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## kincanucks (28 May 2005)

thorbahn said:
			
		

> Does anybody know if this incentive applies to reserve force or just reg?
> 
> Also, how aboriginal would one have to be? Would just having Native status and a "green card" do it?
> 
> This may apply to a friend of mine.


http://www.recruiting.forces.gc.ca/engraph/enrollment/index_e.aspx

Look under NCM plans for CFAEP.


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## Gunner (28 May 2005)

FastEddy/Navcomm,

I think Kincanucks has answered why the CF is providing a 3 week program for aboriginal youth.  I know from my own experience with Bold Eagle, some of these kids come from very isolated communities and programs aimed at their circumstances can go a long way.   

FastEddy, until you prove your credentials are as good or better than kincanucks (who I know and army.ca values as a key contributor on recruiting issues), I suggest you stop [edited to remove insulting phrase] questioning his contributions.  

Cheers,


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## Infanteer (28 May 2005)

FastEddy said:
			
		

> NavComm, having read this thread from end to end, I find your rebuttal to "Kincanucks" (The proclaimed
> Expert on Recruitment, which has been pointed out to us ), refreshingly encompassing the sentiments of most of us.
> 
> However, I have difficulty in assigning credibility to any one in this field that cannot or will not provide answers to simple inquires as to the Total number of CAF Recruitment applications and of that number, how many where rejected over a 12 month period. Also what was the National annual quote for that period.



Perhaps there is a reason he is not posting that info.

Other than that, I don't get what the additude is for - Kincanucks posted the Recruiting Policy on the topic and his own opinion.  There is no need for you to be a prick in responding, so take Gunner's advice and cool your jets.


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## FastEddy (29 May 2005)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Perhaps there is a reason he is not posting that info.
> 
> Other than that, I don't get what the additude is for - Kincanucks posted the Recruiting Policy on the topic and his own opinion.   There is no need for you to be a prick in responding, so take Gunner's advice and cool your jets.




Unless I am mistaken, in certain threads a certain CF's General who's actions ,conduct and decisions have been openly discussed, almost to a point of vilifying him. If its acceptable to question the General Staff and
on occasions ridiculing the Prime Minister of Canada. I am puzzled why certain members of the PTB feel it
necessary to come charging to the defense or rescue in this quite simple matter.

Years of Police work have made me extremely suspicious of everyone and any thing or what I hear. So when
following a certain avenue of thought, and Bang!, I run into a road block, immediately the red flags go up.

Since certain PTB feel it necessary to call me to account, then try and following this,

1. Are Recruitment Officers privy to policies and statistics, Yes or No.
2. Do you think that they openly oppose Recruitment Policies, Yes or No.
3. Do you think Recruitment Officers would supply information
     that might be detrimental to the Agency, Yes or No.
4.Do you think they would inform you of Areas where such
     information might be obtainable, Yes or No.

The question was; What was the total number of CF's   Recruitment applications and of them what was the
total number of actual enrollments. Also could the rejections be broken down under, Health, Education or other, for a 12 month period and what was the National quote.

The answer; I DON'T KNOW and LOOK IT UP ELSE WHERE.

In case your wondering, those simple statistics could reflect whats happening with and in our Recruitment.
Areas. P.S. I'm still looking, still no Stat's

But, MAYBE THEY ARE TOP SECRET, in that case I retract my comments and appologize to Kincanucks.


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## cgyflames01 (29 May 2005)

> The Canadian military has started a public relations and recruiting campaign in an effort to attract more aboriginal people to its ranks.


I wonder if they have to wait 6 months to a year to join. Anyway its out of our controle, right.


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## TCBF (29 May 2005)

"I'm all for diversity, but this tradition of belligerent self-pity has gotten real old"

- Every now and then, a Pearl.  Sapper Bloggins,  'belligerant self-pity' is an interesting  phrase, which applies to much of Canadian - in fact the World's - culture today.  I believe the Indians got a raw deal and in many ways are still getting a raw deal.  It appears as well that they have leadership and 'grassroots' political issues similar to those aflficting 'white' Canada.   Equality in misery, what?

Fast Eddy: Never mind Recruiting Centres, try getting answers out of the Edmonton Public School Board!

Tom


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## Long in the tooth (29 May 2005)

Is the Bold Eagle program still in operation?  When I first heard of that I had my doubts as it was by definition 'racist'.  After viewing the progress (I was not on the course staff but kept my eyes open) I realized that Aboriginals' backgrounds were unique and perhaps they did have a different way of learning that was facilitated by being among their own.

On graduation day the drill was great and the pride of the candidates and their parents was something to behold.  

So while the $1200 may stick in some folks craw, at least it shows DND is attempting to address the issue.  The more people we get through the recruiting office door and into training, the better (I say).


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## 1feral1 (29 May 2005)

Worn Out Grunt said:
			
		

> Is the Bold Eagle program still in operation?   When I first heard of that I had my doubts as it was by definition 'racist'.   After viewing the progress (I was not on the course staff but kept my eyes open) I realized that Aboriginals' backgrounds were unique and perhaps they did have a different way of learning that was facilitated by being among their own.
> 
> On graduation day the drill was great and the pride of the candidates and their parents was something to behold.



Back about 14 yrs ago, I was an Instructor at the BSL in Det Dundurn, where in the summers, we used to burn thru QL2 courses, and if I remember there was two Bold Eagles running that year with the late MWO Ray Sinclair of the RRR (Ray passed way earlier this year) as the Coy's CSM. Ray was the first native to become a Constable in the Regina City Police, and he also advanced in rank in the Militia over 3 decades.

The only differences in the course being some native instructors, and a extra time for cultural awarness, and a visit from SIVA (Sask Indian Vets Assn) where the candidates listened to a few spokesmen who served in   the European theatre in the last World War. The CTS and all EOs and POs were the same.

Candidates were also open to sweat lodges (and other things), and so were all staff, which included non-natives, so it was a two way street, and both sides learned about each other.

In the 'white platoons' (including my own) there was some annamosity as the press was always out to the the Bold Eagles,and never paid them a visit, plus they felt (unconfirmed) that the BE's got more ammo and pyro, and that they were getting short changed in other ways (most likely just inter platoon rumour nets as hot as a burnt out .50 barrel).

As for proud parents and girlfriends, etc, at graduation, you'll get that in every platoon no matter what it's racial background is.

The good side to it all was it gave the native platoons some esprit du corps, and some indiividual identity, and I don't think there is nothing wrong with that, and at the end of the day, its about recruiting, retention, and good realistic training, plus if it was a rewarding experience, this can be passed along to more intersted natives who may have been a bit skeptical before hand.


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## DogOfWar (29 May 2005)

I wouldnt mind seeing a company or a platoon or regiment raised up with native dress uniforms. A native fighting unit. Something they could take pride in and breed patriotism. Maybe the recruiters for that unit could fly to these remote communities.....maybe its a dumb idea but I think it could be a huuuge asset. Like a beefed up canada rangers. Of course all ethnicities could join but I wouldnt because I would see it as something they could call there own.....


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## DogOfWar (29 May 2005)

2332Piper said:
			
		

> Define 'native dress uniforms'. You do realise that there are hundreds of different native groups, all with different identifying symbols and traditional dress?
> 
> I think it would of slim to no help to the CF. We have the rangers as the CF prescense in remote communities. If you want to join a unit thats not in your area, do what everyone else in Canada has to do if there is no unit near them, go to where there is one. (yes, it is harder for someone from Davis Inlet, but you get the idea).
> 
> Wasen't there a thread on forming new ethnic based units a while ago? I still say, dumb idea.



Well thanks for helping me out. And no- I dont "get the idea". If a person has no chance of getting to a recruiting centre and cant escape the life he's forced into. I dont see how he is suppose to get there like everyone else. I dont believe they should get "free money" and I dont think they should govern themselves. But this I could see them having. Obviously there are lots of different tribes- should I have said "dress uniforms inspired by native culture"? I said in my first post it wasnt a realisitc idea. Certain leaders in the native communtiy have stated hat there youth join the Marines because of the warrior culture. If we helped them stand up there own unit they could create their own warrior culture.


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## Sapper Bloggins (29 May 2005)

TCBF said:
			
		

> "I'm all for diversity, but this tradition of belligerent self-pity has gotten real old"
> 
> - Every now and then, a Pearl.   Sapper Bloggins,   'belligerant self-pity' is an interesting   phrase, which applies to much of Canadian - in fact the World's - culture today.   I believe the Indians got a raw deal and in many ways are still getting a raw deal.   It appears as well that they have leadership and 'grassroots' political issues similar to those aflficting 'white' Canada.     Equality in misery, what?
> 
> ...




The conservative ideology of the CAF certainly reinforces the structural inequalities that continue to exist in Canada.
Even when the CAF changes it's policies to try to address some of it's problems, it still doesn't go far enough in dealing w/ the structural inequalities that make some soldiers more equal than others.


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## DogOfWar (30 May 2005)

2332Piper said:
			
		

> The USMC does not have any 'native american' units. The reference was made in regards to their tougher basic training program and 'soldier first' mentality. They (not reservation leaders, people running the criminal Mohawk Warrior Society) were referring to the USMC's warrior mentality, not a native warrior mentality
> 
> And oh, no one is 'forced into' their situation, You can be out into a bad situation, but you can also get yourself out of it. If you truely want to change your lot in life, you can. You just need to work harder then some other people might have too. Thats life. If your 'stuck' in a bad situation and are not willing to change it, I really don't care then. Anyone can make something of themselves, some just don't get a head start like others do. Life ain't fair. I don't mind if the CF has to fly people out of the remote reservations or villages to join the CF if thats the only way out for them, thats fine. But we aren't a social welfare organisation.



Did I say anything about changing the standard? So we would be a welfare org? I said offer the opportunity.Im aware that the Marines dont have native american units. Check your fire. Quit being so defensive over a no chance in hell idea.  didnt think that mentioning a pipe dream native unit would get you so uppity. Your right. Give them nothing and let them rot in there communities. They could walk several hundred kilos later they would eventually get to a recruiting centre.  :


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## wack-in-iraq (30 May 2005)

heres a news flash, indians...oh wait..natives..no, first nations...no, wait whats the proper word for them this week.. are not the only ones who have a tough life in canada. there are plenty of kids who grow up in poor families where drugs and alcohol are present and they are beaten, neglected...etc, is the CF doing anything to attract them ? no ! the reason is that canada is so concerned about offending ethnics that we have pushed aside the needs and wants of the common white guy. one thing that has always amazed me is that if i say (insert racist word here) i am a racist, but if anyone who is not white says (insert derogatory comment about caucasians here) it is funny... man this stuff makes me mad.


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## NavComm (30 May 2005)

FastEddy said:
			
		

> NavComm, having read this thread from end to end, I find your rebuttal to "Kincanucks" (The proclaimed
> Expert on Recruitment, which has been pointed out to us ), refreshingly encompassing the sentiments of most of us.
> 
> However, I have difficulty in assigning credibility to any one in this field that cannot or will not provide answers
> ...



Fast Eddy, gee, thanks for sticking me in the sh*t.  I'm pretty sure I can do a fine job of that myself. 

Just to clear up, I wasn't trying to single out Kincanucks, but he did give a good rationale for the thinking behind the policy. I just happen to disagree with that rationale.  Having read many of Kincanuck's posts on here - I think he qualifies, IMHO as an 'expert' or least has some really really good inside information. And just to put my 2 cents in about his reply to your question about total numbers....I think he said something like 'not that helpful, try Freedom of Information.' Not that he didn't know. But that's a different thread.

I've read all the various comments on here and I still don't agree with the policy, I just think it's too exclusive. I know native people have their own culture but so do other ethnic groups within Canada. Whereas I embrace multiculturism, I think that some organizations, particularly the military, have to be CANADIAN otherwise we'll be hiving ourselves off into all sorts of little armies. Where does it end?

And if the idea is to increase the number of recruits, then offer that 3 week introduction to all disadvantaged Canadians, not just one group.


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## RossF (30 May 2005)

I don't know... To me this is the CF sort of setting white people as the "norm" (I don't like that). Anyone else get this impression?


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## DogOfWar (30 May 2005)

you are missing the point. The kids "rotting away in vancouver" can walk to the recruiter. The kids "rotting" in the north cant hop on their private plane and fly to the recruiter.

Im not trying to "give them more assistance". And you are forgetting the "white" kids on the reserves who wind up there through marriage or other wise. Or the Native people who dont qualify for this "free money" you keep complaining you dont get. Its not as simple as "they get free stuff boo hoo" as you would believe. Its not just a racial or "free money" issue as a location and circumstance issue. Of course being in university you must know all. If you are going to go anywhere in law enforcement I suggest you get over yourself. 

Quite frankly this is all I have to say about this. Im shocked at your attitude. Yes all the disadvantged should be taken care of. But your attitude is coming accross like "Screw all the disadvantged I work for mine". PM if you need more.

As for the issue at hand- who cares? 1200 bucks isnt worth 3 weeks to me.  If someone wants to take advantge of a program that offers 400 bucks a week I couldnt care less. Of course it shouldnt be a race issue. But no one on here would take advantge of the program. Its less than minimum wage. Sounds like a case of "thats my toy" like children do.


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## TCBF (30 May 2005)

"The conservative ideology of the CAF certainly reinforces the structural inequalities that continue to exist in Canada. Even when the CAF changes it's policies to try to address some of it's problems, it still doesn't go far enough in dealing w/ the structural inequalities that make some soldiers more equal than others."

Well, if I was hoping for two pearls in a row... 

So, please explain.  what 'structural inequalities' in particular are you refering to?  The ones that pay more for some to join than others?  

Exactly what 'conservative ideology' are you referering to as well?


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## RossF (30 May 2005)

Then again... Opinions are opinions..facts are facts..but the Government WILL still do what it wants.


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## 1feral1 (30 May 2005)

BeadWindow said:
			
		

> you are missing the point. The kids "rotting away in vancouver" can walk to the recruiter. The kids "rotting" in the north cant hop on their private plane and fly to the recruiter.



WRT isolated natives

Rural Saskatchewan has a large population of Indians.

I take you have not been on the streets of Regina, Saskatoon, and Prince Albert in Saskatchewan, all which have an abundant qty of Reserve Units ( Inf, Arty, CSS, Medical, Sigs, etc). Plenty of native youth 'rotting' (and others) in these cities and surrounding districts. Any 'youth' can simply enquire at these locs, plus many surrounding towns have access to local cadet corps, and many Indian reserves even have their own Corps too.

Bold Eagles primarily recruited out of Saskatchewan.

No private jets required.


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## Sapper Bloggins (31 May 2005)

TCBF said:
			
		

> So, please explain.   what 'structural inequalities' in particular are you refering to?   The ones that pay more for some to join than others?
> 
> Exactly what 'conservative ideology' are you referering to as well?




I suppose you may be delving a little too deep...
All I was trying to convey is that these recruiting objectives have been defined by complexity. Capiche?
out.


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## big bad john (27 Sep 2006)

http://www.lookoutnewspaper.com/archive/20060925/3.shtml

Aboriginals taste military life during three-week program
Melissa Atkinson
Editor
September 25, 2006

 A platoon of First Nations people in the Aboriginal Entry Program pause for a photo during a field exercise. There are 57 attendees currently at Work Point getting a three-week glimpse into the Canadian Forces and a possible career.
The Canadian Forces Aboriginal Entry Program has the look and feel of basic recruit training, but without the uniform or rank, or the commitment to the Canadian Forces. 

Instead of signing up and heading to St. Jean-sur-Richelieu, Quebec, for military training, Aboriginal men and women can get “a taste” of military training before making the CF a part of their future, says CPO2 Deb Eisan, Canadian Forces Recruiting Group Staff Officer for Aboriginal Peoples. 

Fifty-seven Aboriginal men and women are currently at Work Point trialing service life for three weeks. 

Dressed in a black T-shirt and combat pants and boots, each candidate has the opportunity to try drill, weapons handling, rappelling and field survival, and learn about military culture and rank structure to see if they’d like a career with the Canadian Forces. 

“Many people live in remote areas and this is a chance for them to get a taste of the military,” says CPO2 Eisan, who came from Halifax to run the Work Point program. 

The program is a regular force recruiting initiative designed to increase the number of status, non-status, Metis and Inuit people in the military. The percentage currently hovers around 1.4 per cent, or about 1,275 CF members. 

Elements of the 13-week basic recruit training course taken at Canadian Forces Leadership and Recruit School in St. Jean-sur-Richelieu have been condensed into the three-week program. It introduces Aboriginal candidates to some of the mental skills and physical fitness needed to meet military operational requirements. 

The course is normally held once a year in St. Jean-sur-Richelieu, but a rise in basic military qualification recruits has left no room to house the Aboriginal attendees. 

Work Point was the next best option. 

Instructors received a special weeklong Aboriginal cultural awareness training, which Chief Eisan says gives them background into First Nations, Inuit and Metis history, and sensitivity to their culture and religion. 

Aboriginal counselors were contracted to help attendees deal with issues of culture shock and homesickness. Many attendees came from small, remote villages in northern Canada, and traveling to Victoria was their first time stepping outside North of 60. 

“I told the recruits the bravest thing they have done will not be rappelling down 31 feet, but stepping onto the plane and coming here. Facing the fear of the unknown and leaving their families. Aboriginal families are tight knit,” says Chief Eisan. 

The attendees, with ages ranging from 17 to 50, were divided into two platoons and housed in Work Point barracks. Graduation is next Friday at the Naden Drill Deck, at which time they can choose to join the regular force. Enrolment rate at the end of the program is between 30-35 per cent. 

“The military is a good, viable career choice for aboriginal peoples. I couldn’t do this job in recruiting if I didn’t see this as a good career choice for Aboriginal peoples,” she says. 

CPO2 Deb Eisan is an Ojibway woman with 32 years in the navy. 

“I certainly haven’t looked back with any regrets. As an Ojibway woman from Batchewana First Nations in Northern Ontario, I never dreamed of travelling to Europe, or having the chance to make a presentation to the President of Antigua.” 

Regardless of whether they choose a career in the CF, aboriginal candidates on the pre-recruit training course receive a $1,200 bonus for trying the program.


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## GAP (27 Sep 2006)

Good idea...hope it works


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## 3rd Horseman (27 Sep 2006)

Interesting read,

    I cant but wonder why we are still trying to recruit from specific groups, it has always failed why waste the time and money. I think that a better idea would be to do this program for all youth. Much like the old YTEP program. The program laid out above for the aboriginal youth sounds great but IMHO it should not focus on any specific group other than youth.


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## orange.paint (27 Sep 2006)

It is a good program.And to compare rural youth from lets say cape breton to Inuu people is not close.Differnt culture and a good program.
Would like to see numbers of how many we retain,I know a few that just left after they finished battle school.

Hope it works.


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## armychick2009 (10 Jan 2010)

Wow, this is quite the fascinating read and was interesting to see everyone's input regarding this. Maybe as someone who has participated in this program, I can give you "the other side" of the story. 

(And, a quick hello to any PRTC staff out there who may read this!)

Anyways, let me clear up a few things about the program as I feel I am (somewhat) qualified to provide,  having lived it and having read through the six pages of commentary.

[list type=decimal]
[*]Are we Native/Indan/Aboriginal/First Nation...? I prefer to call myself Indigenous but each person is different. To each his own...
[*]Let's clear up this "green card" status business. You self-identify as aboriginal. Doesn't matter if you're Full Status (Treaty native), Non-Status (non-treaty native),Metis, Inuit or 1/100th native.  Not all natives have treaty "rights". I will use that term "rights" loosely but this isn't a thread on politics of this though feel free to PM me about this. I am a non-status indigenous person with roots in aboriginal and "European" culture. This is NOT metis. Metis are a particular group with historical attachment to the Red River community. 
[*]What are our backgrounds? My 'platoon' mates came from all kinds of backgrounds. Some lived in the woods with no electricity, others came from far remote reserves, some were urban, some were rural, some had backgrounds where drugs and alcohol were prevalent and others came from relatively 'normal' (ie, white society context) backgrounds. We are all different and yet, the same. Kind of like the 'white' culture, eh? We have diversity amongst our own people too... 
[*]The "BONUS" of $1200. I loved the conversation regarding this... and thus, I'll share what I think about this with you since you all kindly shared your thoughts with the rest of us! As pointed out, the "bonus" is split up like a real paycheque as it would happen in basic. Whoops! Did I just say that? YES, it's treated like a paycheque. Some of you pointed out that many of us just sit around, collecting the dole and living the high life on reserves. You've obviously never been to a reserve. I taught at one as an aboriginal teacher who came from the city. I'd like you to imagine the worst stories you have heard and then times that by ten. That's how the reserve was, where I was at. NOTE! Not ALL of us come from places like that. So, don't generalise all of us into the same heap of pile. All of the non-status, "Metis" and such, do NOT receive any government "doled" money. I was unemployed at the time and this money really helped me out. I have bills to pay, just like you. I have student loans to pay, like many of you. I worked hard each and every day on that course to learn what it's like to be a soldier. And, soldiers get paid, right? Why wouldn't I? If you go on and on and on about how so many of "us" get freebie money, wouldn't you like some of us to experience (some for the first time) how AWESOME it is to be handed money we worked hard and earned??? You want "us" to appreciate the dollar of a hard-earned wage? Then let us enjoy it. Let us send that money home to our families so that we can buy food, pay rent, keep the hydro on and keep ourselves above float. Do you remember the first time someone handed you $200 for your hard work? Did you not have a big freakin' grin on your face? And did you not feel good? Did you not want to keep working hard and continue to bring that money in? Some of us come from places where there IS NO WORK AT ALL. I saw the grins on those kids faces as they stepped up to a table and got handed a big wad of cash (which was promptly spent at the Canex so we can get our supplies necessary!!!) 
[*]Culture Shock: Some of us come from isolated places. Some of us have never seen a shopping mall. Some of us have never been to a science centre or a museum. Some of us have never seen trees taller than 4 feet. Some of us have never been away from our families. Our families include the entire community sometimes. Some of us have never left the reserve. Some of us, grew up in cities and have been so urbanized, we didn't realise how our brothers and sisters in other communities live... (will talk more about this in a second)... three weeks is long enough to get homesick (some for the first time). It's long enough to find out what it's like to be yelled at (when many of us come from communities where yelling is considered more violent than hitting as well as swearing)... the first time someone yells at you, do you want to break down at basic training? Or, would you like it to be in a place where you have your brothers and sisters around you to help you sort things out. Your culture is different than our culture and this is a way to help us adjust... it's not a way for us to assimilate, it's a way for us to adjust. I guarantee you right now, there are folk from my platoon who are at basic training who will NOT break down and quit because they had this three-week introduction. They will succeed at basic, because they went to this course. THAT alone is worth $1200 to the army, isn't it? The cost of sending a drop-out back I am sure costs more than this program. Value for money. 
[*]"Warriors" in the truest way... many of us come from long lines of "warriors". Example is Tom Longboat and many other First Nation veterans. There's thousands of them. But, some of them (my family for instance) goes back hundreds of years. Some of us, it's in our blood. We want to protect our country. We're willing to die for it. But sometimes, that brings conflict. Who are we fighting for? Our people? Or "White" Canada? Or, the land? Some of us are conflicted about this and we need our brothers and sisters with like-minded goals, to discuss this. Some of us are conflicted.... myself included. We want to fight for the right reason. The first blood spilled on these lands were ours, protecting it from the European invaders. It's been mostly our blood lost... some of us do not want to kill... but obviously, that's something that could inevitably be part of our job, right? Some of us come from nations where peace and love are pillars of our being. Others are from communities with more of a fighting warrior spirit. But, in the end... we all want to protect Canada. So, these three weeks allows us to meet one another, discuss this and decide if joining the forces is what we want to do. 
[*]We come from a variety of backgrounds educationally. Some of us haven't finished highschool. Some of us are already working but know that we could do better for our families. Barely sustaining a life in a community that suffers so much from whatever turmoil it's going for, is hard. We are people just like you who may have families... we all want the best for our children, right? This course allows some of us to experience for the first time, a knowledge that we are capable of doing something more outside of our bubble. We have so many people talking down to us, that many of us have believed everything you tell us. That we're dumb, that we're a bunch of alchies, that we're useless and should just live off the gov't like so many of our families have had to. But, our kids are just like your kids. They deserve just as much of a bright future that yours does. And for some of us, we don't have the opportunity to step outside of our community to experience life like you do. Many of the people on my course had children... some have babies... some have babies on the way... some are taking care of their siblings... some are homeless. But, I will guarantee you that THOSE situations only drive the fire that much more within ourselves, to REALLY make this work. 
[*]How successful is this program? Let's see... all but ONE of the recruits had the intention of going back home and signing up. Some are going reserves, some are going reg force...  some are going to go officer and attend RMC... some are doing other forms of entry.... one or two were qualified to go direct entry officer... and the one who wasn't going to sign up? He's signing up for RCMP so he's got a heart to protect his community and is the ONE guy I can totally see as an infanteer. I'm still trying to convince him to go reg force and trust me... if you were with his platoon, I would GUARANTEE you that he is the one guy who would do anything to protect you or to go beyond to ensure an objective is met. I would consider that a pretty good success rate, right?
[*]Do all of these members join? Who knows. It can vary. Some may get home and decide that the army life isn't for them. Some can't leave yet... maybe next year. Others signed up right away and had their BMQ dates given before they even left. Others have to wait (like myself) until April like everyone else, for their trades to open. 
[*]To the guy who said, "if $1200 keeps someone from a community that sniffs glue" or something along that lines... I have to tell you... some of these guys (and girls) came in with zero confidence in themselves. No one ever had faith in them. But our staff (while sometimes appearing mean!) were actually very aware of this and while they yelled sometimes, they also provided encouragement at the right times as well. I can guarantee you people attended that course who were heading down very dark paths, have now the confidence to go down a much better path. That's the best $1200 you ever spent, believe me!
[*]How come white folk don't get this amazing opportunity? I agree. Most of us on the course, stated that EVERYONE should have this opportunity. And you know what? If we have YOUR support and can prove that this kind of program DOES work with recruiting and retention rates, maybe it could one day be applied across the board to other groups... yea, white folk too! Let us be the guinea pigs (it wouldn't be the first time, right?) and prove how demographic-specific recruitment programs CAN be beneficial to all folk. I know that farming communities could benefit from this... having come from a farming community as well which happens to be SURROUNDING a freakin' CFB Base (Petawawa). How many good, strong farmboys are recruited? How can rural farm life translate to the army? What skills do they have (growing up around machinery, production, supply, etc.) that could be brought to the forces? And afterwards? I bet you could get a lot of awesome mechanics, drivers and command leaders out of little Farmer Joe down in the Pembroke region. Hell, he's been driving a stick since he was 9 years old! So yea, I agree... and most of us agreed in the course, that this kind of program would benefit ALL recruits from ALL backgrounds.  
[/list]

Okay, I think I addressed most of the issues that many of you had. Feel free to ask me ANYTHING and I'll try to explain it as a participant could explain it. Maybe one of the instructors/staff could answer some of the things I either perceived as wrong or that a mere, ordinary mortal civilian can't answer fully. 

I realise that I probably "outed" myself by responding to this thread. But that is okay I suppose... if it helps the program continue, or if it helps with gaining support from people who may not be fully informed with it, then it's worth being "outed". 

Now, if this mega-sized message isn't long enough, I'd like to quickly share my background with you. 

I'm an aboriginal applicant to the forces who is non-status. For those who think natives get free education, I would like you to know I am the proud (and responsible) owner of nearly $40 000 in student loans. I have a diploma in Print Journalism and a certificate in Multimedia. I have worked in the public-sector under the auspices of the WSIB (provincial workers comp in Ontario) for 5 years. I left work to finish my degree (which I started part-time while working) and to support my common-law spouse who is in the army. I followed him to Petawawa where we were posted for the past three years. While there, I finished my bachelor of arts and my bachelor of education. I have owned my own business for 12 years in graphic design. When I separated from him this past spring, I decided to join the army. I've since lost 50 pounds (well, 275 if you count my ex!!), moved to a new community, started a new life and have fought very hard to overcome challenges to join the forces. I mentioned that some of us have aboriginal warrior history... several hundreds of years worth but I also have European and Canadian "warriors" with my Grandpa Scotty (Scottish Highlander, POW of 3 years in North Africa), Great-Grandpa Wright (Originally listed MIA, later POW, WWI) and several other relatives. My brother is also currently in the forces.  I am also strongly interested in First Nation relations within government and believe I am a good judge of what is crap and what isn't crap when it comes to federally implemented aboriginal programs. I consider myself perhaps the biggest skeptic of all when I took the course...  I took part in the PRTC program for the three weeks and am grateful for the opportunity.Starting a new career at the age of 31 isn't easy and joining one that is so foreign to everything that I have ever done was quite a scary prospect. But I knew the moment I arrived (and definitely solidified it the day we got to shoot the C7s and then the three days of staying at the FOB while it was drenched wet and then blowing snow... and not hearing a single person complain about it ... including myself!!!...) that I was where I was supposed to be. We felt like a family -- some of us have never felt that before -- and all of us helped each other out. We all pretty well knew we could hack the army life and most of us made that decision the first week, to do this. Our staff was pretty excellent and by the end of it all... well, I'll quote someone. "When we came here, we were scared of you. (The staff)... but now? We know you are just like us and you are human, just like us."  Some of us haven't had great experiences with white culture... and this for many, was a turning point in knowing that we really CAN work as a team... native and non-native... and that we all have something to offer. There is no way I could ever be an infanteer. But, there are other things that my 12 years of being in the workforce, CAN bring to the table. And this program allowed me to realise that. So, as a merit-listed candidate who is waiting for her trade to open, the army is about to win big by scoring a person with 7 years post-secondary education, 12 years of work-experience and a lot of real-world experience. 

Tell me? Was it worth my $1200 "bonus" (a.k.a., pay cheque upon completion of the program) to the Canadian Forces?

You tell me.

Thanks for listening! And... hope this clears up anything. If you got questions, please ask.

P.S. I'd like to say to add as I previously stated, that as the greatest skeptic of the course, that I think it has a place. I felt it culturally appropriate.  I know the army life well enough as a spouse, to know how it works and I felt it was realistic in how it presented the forces to the candidates. The army life wasn't sugar-coated. There are points that could be worked on within' the program (as all programs often have) but nothing dire or out of place.  I would... as the original skeptic to how well this program was run for the purpose it was created, would recommend this to other aboriginal applicants.

P.P.S. I have not received any special monies for pumping the program. No kickbacks have been provided. No additional bonuses have been issued nor small-pox infested blankets. No extra land has been provided.  No extra beef stroganoff ration packs have been given nor did I get special TV privileges! I would however, not be opposed to it!! (Well, maybe the small-pox blanket, you can keep that!)  And... God Almighty, I still pay the 15% tax on everything just like you!!!!


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## armyvern (10 Jan 2010)

Excellent post!!



			
				armychick2009 said:
			
		

> P.P.S. I have not received any special monies for pumping the program. No kickbacks have been provided. No additional bonuses have been issued. No extra beef stroganoff ration packs have been given nor did I get special TV privileges! I would however, not be opposed to it!!  And... God Almighty, I still pay the 15% tax on everything just like you!!!!



Awesome disclaimer!!


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## armychick2009 (10 Jan 2010)

Thanks ArmyVern! Can you tell I've worked in Public Affairs before? It's the CYA.... Cover Your Ass....

BTW, not the trade I'm going for


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## VIChris (10 Jan 2010)

Well said. Thanks for highlighting the pros to this program. The successes on your course sound fantastic. I wonder if it would be possible to get overall stats for all the serials of the course? In terms of both sign up rates, as well as retention rates after BMQ.  I'm sure such numbers are being closely watched somewhere along the line.

As for expanding it to include other cultures, I can't help but think it wouldn't have the same effect on us white folk. We are generally more accustomed to the yelling etc., as well as military style hierarchy, which from the little I have learned about Native social structure is quite different.  I don't see as much of a need for an acclimatisation program for 'us.' Although I suppose for the folks just scraping by at or below the poverty line, such a glimpse at army life could prompt them to sign up. 

In regards to immigrant minority groups, I'm on the fence there, and probably shouldn't comment until I dig into it more.

There is a young Pte. where I'm at who went through the Raven program. He told me a bit about how it all worked, but I never asked him much about how it worked for him. I think I have my beer mate picked out for the mess on Wednesday!


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## armychick2009 (10 Jan 2010)

VIChris, 

Sounds like you'll have some interesting conversation! Give him a few minutes to think about it...

There IS something I didn't discuss in that mammoth entry... 

.... there are actually several different programs available. I still don't understand the names totally so, someone else will need to clarify this...


Mine was the Pre-recruit Training Course (PRETC), which is 3 weeks long. It's kind of like, a sampler for us to try. 

But there is Raven, BlackBear and I believe one other one (ah yes, Bold Eagle!). These are NOT the same. They go 7 weeks and are actually a reserves course. So, those who complete the seven weeks (and are paid $3000... same as a reservist training somewhere else I believe) become actual reservists if they choose to. 

PRETC also does NOT have the strict age-restriction those other ones have. I can't do the Raven/Black Bear or Bold Eagle because I am too old at 31. (I was told I look 22 though the other day!) About 3/4 of our program were between 17 & 21. The other ones were the oldies... 24, 28, 31, 33, 37... (roughly the ages anyways). So, we would have lost out on this opportunity if the PRETC didn't exist.  All of those older ones mostly had formal schooling (I had my previously stated education, another had college, another had most of his university (if not all)....

And... I actually think ALL of the older applicants have either joined and are currently in basic... or, are waiting (im)patiently (like myself)....

Please let me know what the Pte. says (either here or PM)....

I'm certain he benefited in some way!

Thanks


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## armychick2009 (10 Jan 2010)

> As for expanding it to include other cultures, I can't help but think it wouldn't have the same effect on us white folk. We are generally more accustomed to the yelling etc., as well as military style hierarchy, which from the little I have learned about Native social structure is quite different.  I don't see as much of a need for an acclimatisation program for 'us.' Although I suppose for the folks just scraping by at or below the poverty line, such a glimpse at army life could prompt them to sign up.



Sorry, I should have added this to the last post... you hit the nail on the head where you mentioned Hierarchy... that's what I got most out of the program, was my decision whether to go Officer or NCM. In the end, I opted for NCM because I don't feel I deserve/should be at that level... not YET anyways. I've decided (if I hopefully get my trade) that I will do that for about 10-15 years and then potentially switch to Officer. For me, it's a culture thing.... an elder-type thing... maybe it's the right choice, maybe it's the wrong one. But, right now it feels like the choice I should make. This however is how *I* see it. Another person from another community or another group of first nation, maybe feels differently about it. Besides, I've pushed enough paper in my life that I'm looking very much forward to not having to push (as much) paper for a little while!


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## dangerboy (10 Jan 2010)

In case anyone wishes more information, here is the link to a PDF file with info on The Canadian Forces Aboriginal Entry Plans:
http://www.forces.ca/media/_pdf/AboriginalPlans_en.pdf

This document has information on all the various programs offered by the CF and may answer some questions and dispel some beliefs.


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## Jarnhamar (10 Jan 2010)

Why should we give Aboriginal Youth a $1200 bonus?

What is the logic or reason behind singling them out and giving them $1200? 
Why not give someone who is an excellent marksman $1200, or better yet someone who has incredible physical fitness?

Do we do this so just in the end we in the CF can say Hey everybody look we have X amount of Aboriginal's, we're so diverse!




			
				Scotty said:
			
		

> Lt.-Col. Bruce Parks says native people make up just five per cent of the armed forces right now. He says the military needs to do a better rob reflecting the native population in Canada.


From the first post. 
But I ask why?  Shouldn't we also reflect the East coast population of Canada?  Should we give members of the gay community $1200 to join? Should we extend this to Muslim's to reflect their part in Canada? To the Chinese out in BC?  


Armychick2009 that was a really great post I enjoyed reading it, really got me thinking.  I'm just nay saying the issue a bit.

You mentioned all your accomplishments then asked if it was worth the $1200. In fairness what about other members of different communities cultures colours who have achieved the same level of accomplishments?  IF the CF is buying your level of success with $1200 extra then I think it's only fair to put that out to everyone else. That make sense?

My nay saying aside, if this program helps Aboriginals beat the suicide and addiction problems that are prevalent (sp?) on reserves and up north then I'm willing to keep an open mind to it. It's a problem that throwing money at won't fix. Maybe this money is enough to grab attention and isn't so much just throwing it at a problem...

There is no question about the amazing soldiers they produce IMO.  I think I read some where that in WW2 Native Americans won more medals of honour than any other ethnicity?  Cool stuff to be proud of.  Wish I saw more Aboriginals in the combat arms that's for sure.

I just hate the 'Look at how diverse we are!' attitude of the CF and  I see it as us being more concerned about image than performance.


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## Loachman (10 Jan 2010)

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> Why should we give Aboriginal Youth a $1200 bonus?



Either you missed it or I imagined it, but it was explained that they were essentially paid to undergo the training, just like anybody else would have been.



			
				Flawed Design said:
			
		

> What is the logic or reason behind singling them out and giving them $1200?



They are one of - and the original - founding Peoples of this nation, yet many have been left behind. Not only does this give some of them a boost up, but it also enables them to contribute to Canadian society as a whole as well as their own communities. This is a pittance compared to the unaccounted-for billions that flow through Indian Affairs, and probably does far more good.

Money worth spent, if you ask me.



			
				Flawed Design said:
			
		

> Shouldn't we also reflect the East coast population of Canada?



Perhaps - but then we'd have to come up with some excuse to kick an awful lot of Maritimers and Newfoundlanders out, and that would cripple us far more than the FRP and Decade of Darkness ever did.



			
				Flawed Design said:
			
		

> Should we give members of the gay community $1200 to join? Should we extend this to Muslim's to reflect their part in Canada? To the Chinese out in BC?



I would not argue against attempting to attract more from other communities, but $1200.00 is not so likely to attract those who live in urban communities with numerous other distractions. We have Co-op programmes in many of those, however, and I believe that we pay participants of those.



			
				Flawed Design said:
			
		

> Armychick2009 that was a really great post I enjoyed reading it,



On that we can agree.

It was good for a few chortles, too.



			
				Flawed Design said:
			
		

> You mentioned all your accomplishments then asked if it was worth the $1200. In fairness what about other members of different communities cultures colours who have achieved the same level of accomplishments?  IF the CF is buying your level of success with $1200 extra then I think it's only fair to put that out to everyone else. That make sense?



Most of the other cultures are not living in the same isolation as many native communities are, and I think that it is reasonably accurate to say that members of those communities deserve a little extra help. It is impossible to be equally fair to every single person in this Country, obviously, but I believe that this strikes a reasonable balance. 

We have paid signing bonuses to people with desireable skills, should those not be extended to every applicant for reasons of fairness?



			
				Flawed Design said:
			
		

> Maybe this money is enough to grab attention and isn't so much just throwing it at a problem...



I do not think that paying people to undergo any level of military training is "throwing it at a problem".



			
				Flawed Design said:
			
		

> There is no question about the amazing soldiers they produce IMO.  I think I read some where that in WW2 Native Americans won more medals of honour than any other ethnicity?  Cool stuff to be proud of.  Wish I saw more Aboriginals in the combat arms that's for sure.



But not enough to invest $1200.00 for their first couple of weeks of training?



			
				Flawed Design said:
			
		

> I just hate the 'Look at how diverse we are!' attitude of the CF and  I see it as us being more concerned about image than performance.



We *should* reflect the society from which we come, though, no?

_*And*_ ensure that as many as possible have the same opportunities to both contribute and benefit, no?


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## northern girl (10 Jan 2010)

Well put Loachman.

Armychick - we work out every day at the gym and I am constantly surprised and motivated by your enthusiasm and determination. It's helped me so much to hear about the experience you got this Fall in your three-week training...each story makes me laugh, and think hard. I think your posts on this thread will go a long way to shedding some light on an important issue. Good on you. (See you at 1:15 on the machine of death >)


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## ballz (10 Jan 2010)

Here's what doesn't add up though, since we're talking about all the disadvantages we are trying to help said aboriginals with.

We're not targeting disadvantaged natives. We're targeting all of them.

Army chick said herself about how "we come from all different backgrounds and cultures, JUST LIKE WHITE FOLK"

There were some that were "normal" and come from white culture, they were urbanized and didn't even know what their other aboriginal folk were living with, much like I don't know what it's like for a white person to live in poverty.


If you're going to say this is about "offering opportunities" to those that don't have them, shouldn't we be offering those opportunities to ALL of those that don't have them (aka caucasian, blacks, asians, etc that are living in poverty)? And not offering them to the people that DO have those opportunities (aka the urbanized aboriginals that live a lifestyle exactly the same as your average white folk in TO)?

Perhaps this 3 week opportunity for 1200 dollars should be offered to all people who are living in poverty, regardless of whether it's on a reserve or in a back alley in MTL. EDIT: Oh wait... This would be military recruiting poverty and would be "immoral?"

I still see this program as creating differences between ethnicities and hurting the problem in the long-term. Why should an urbanized aboriginal that's grown up in a big city and lives a "white culture" lifestyle be given this opportunity and not me? Why should an aboriginal living in poverty on a reserve be given this opportunity and not a white/black/asian living in poverty in a big city not be given this opportunity???

PS. I am of Mi'k maq decent and will soon be receiving a card in the mail that apparently makes me Indian. I'll be sending it back.


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## ballz (10 Jan 2010)

Loachman said:
			
		

> Perhaps - but then we'd have to come up with some excuse to kick an awful lot of Maritimers and Newfoundlanders out, and that would cripple us far more than the FRP and Decade of Darkness ever did.



OR we could start offering incentives for people west of Atlantic Canada to join?..... or would that sound ABSURD?


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## armychick2009 (10 Jan 2010)

Hi Flawed Design, 

I think one of the problems with this thread is the misconception that it's a "Bonus". I have actually participated in other programs in other places that have paid me for my time there as a non-employee. I suppose perhaps some better terminology could be used... what if we called this an "internship" program? We worked hard those 3 weeks, believe me. We learnt to clean our boots, our rooms to standards, waking up at o'dark-stupid... cleaning weapons, tearing down a FOB when we were done. I've worked on a variety of places as an internship and all of which but one (the last, which was MY choice for decided a nuclear research facility wasn't where I wanted to spend my years at) I ended up as full-time employment. The first was that provincial sector job, the second the local university as an receptionist and aboriginal services advisor (helping students cope with ... ah ha!!!... moving away from communities for the first time!) and the last was at Atomic Energy in Chalk River. All of those I learnt the job the same way, all of those I had (MUCH) bigger paycheques than $1200 for 3 weeks, believe me. 

So, maybe some wording needs to change.

Am I believer in affirmative action? Hell no. I have NEVER got a job based on WHAT I am (aboriginal). I have earned each and every single one of my jobs based on my actions and my eduction. That being said... I am one of those more fortunate urban aboriginals who also doesn't look as aboriginal as my brothers/sisters. I can pass in either community without question but without the other knowing I am also the other. (Does that make sense??) So, I haven't experienced the same kind of racism. HOWEVER... that being said, that's not what this program is aimed at... it is aimed at opening the youth's eyes to something they either never imagined they could do, had no idea existed, or were sure they wanted to fight for (the white man, haha!)... 

The day those kids march off the parade square at the end of those three weeks, they then become like every other potential candidate for the forces. I have not received any special exemptions and still filled out an application (again) like everybody else. 

Just a few more quick things, I swear 

The first, you mentioned you would love to see more combat arms aboriginal.  This is ONLY my opinion. I do not want to reinforce any stereotypes... but a lot of this is just a fact. (I was going to write it in my original post but decided to wait until one of you commented on it!) Aboriginal folks can be pretty handy in the bush/in the field... maybe not so much those raised in urban areas (and I consider myself someone who was raised 50/50%) but we can be pretty resourceful. We often are used to making do with very little and can come up with alternative ways to do things. A lot of us track for kilometres in the bush during hunting season. We're a patient people... some of us are just good at being outdoors. Myself? I am in *my* element when I'm outdoors. If you "sort of" KNEW me in person, you'd never believe it... but those who really know me, know that it's true. So yea! A lot of aboriginal people make awesome soldiers.... I heard that medics need to score an 80 on their range test in order to get their qualifications, correct? (Or something like that?) One of the guys scored a 90. A few more were high up as well... we have skills already that we can bring to the army!

Secondly, part of the 3 weeks was introducing us to physical fitness. About 90% of us did NOT have access to a gym. Or an arena. Or some, even basic medical healthcare we all take for granted... this course introduced that and for some, it was the first time they actually ran for any amount of distance. It was a wake-up call and something to take back home to work on. The Canadian Forces will now have (some) healthier applicants when they go. I'm obviously going to be one of them, I had 100 pounds to lose (I'm halfway there)... so this was a turning point for some. 

Now, a quick meander back to the topic of affirmative action... and your comment about about accomplishments being worth $1200 extra... well, it's not EXTRA. That's part of the whole misconception going on. Like I said, if the wording was changed to internship, I believe this would dispel that. And... isn't bonuses a part of the recruiting process anyways, if this WAS a bonus?? There are already signing bonuses out there... why would some doctor need a signing bonus when he's about to make $100-150K a year? (Or more, I don't know how much they make, just guesstimating?) Why should someone who is already in an 'elite' field get a bonus???? Besides, the main difference is this isn't a SIGNING bonus. We aren't in a crowded room with the recruiter standing over us demanding that we sign the sheet and in exchange, getting handed $1200 golden dollars in our fists. It's not like that. $400 a week for an internship program is actually pretty standard wage (depending on the company of course).  They aren't buying my level of success... and I'm not joining the forces for the pay, believe me. I'm choosing to join and take a $20 000 a year paycut over what I made in the other jobs I've had. I'm doing this because, this is where I want to be. 

And finally... you mentioned something about having a certain number of aboriginals, to claim diversity. My big concern going into the program WAS that I did NOT WANT TO BE A STATISTIC. I am looking at this as a career, not as a way to get a nice cushy job as an officer so the Forces could look better. Trust me, that was a long three weeks of me trying to decide what to do. Every day I was torn. I know I have leadership skills to do the officer bit (though, I kept that low key when I was there, I didn't want to draw attention to that fact, I wanted to remain neutral) but is that what is really going to make me happy? I was well aware of the potential of the program to perhaps boost numbers in certain areas. Remember I said I was the biggest skeptic going in? Well, I'm certain they would have loved me going officer... is that because I'm aboriginal or is that because I have leadership material and 10-12 years of public-sector experience? Everyone wants to see others achieve their highest potential and for me, that's perhaps where *I* had an opportunity to educate some of the staff AND the other candidates. Education does NOT make the person. A much bigger paycheque (compared by a Private NCM compared to an intro officer) isn't something to sneeze at... I was aware (believe me, VERY aware) of what I was losing and gaining by making my choice. Each had pros and cons. Three weeks of indecisiveness, tossing and turning, sleepless nights were spent thinking about this. I had to keep true to myself (and I did) and I applied for the NCM trade that I know is right for me. Even the recruiter back at my home recruiting centre, could tell it was the right trade for me. Yes, there was a perfectly good officer position I could have taken but in the end, I took what was best for me. And those in the PRTC program supported that choice. They didn't pressure me, I didn't become the statistic and nor do I feel like one either at the end of the day. 

Anyways - why shouldn't the forces do some demographic-targeted recruitment drives? I already mentioned ALL of the candidates in the program brought this up to the staff. We feel strongly it should. Like I mentioned the farming kids? The forces is really missing out on some very fit, strong, SMART kids who sit idle four-to-six months of the year (agriculture) who I'm sure would LOVE to learn about the army. And maybe immigrants too who want to serve the new country that has adopted them. I wouldn't go quite into individual cultures but why not anyone who is an immigrant, who is eligible? Offer it to them once a year? Logistically, it could be a nightmare doing this for ALL applicants and you know what? Some honestly don't need it. But there are some who do! Like I mentioned in my first post... let us prove to you it DOES work (and help us out here by dispelling the rumours/misconceptions) so that maybe the Forces WILL realise these kind of recruiting methods DO work... and that one day, it CAN be applied to other groups. 

Well... the curse of 90 WPM typing, I've written another book. And look! Still no signing bonus for it... or any compensation. As a graphic designer, I should have charged for the two hours I've worked on this thread... at $60 dollars an hour, that's $120 someone owes me. Hmmm, $400 for a weeks worth of work waking up at 5:30 and going to bed at 11, versus two hours as a graphic designer and earning $120. Maybe to put this into perspective, I could theoretically earn for a 35 hour work-week, $2100.  Hey thanks guy! You just turned me off of the army! *laughs*

Back to the private/public sector I go!!!


----------



## Nfld Sapper (10 Jan 2010)

ballz said:
			
		

> PS. I am of Mi'k maq decent and will soon be receiving a card in the mail that apparently makes me Indian. I'll be sending it back.



I would keep it, you can get slightly cheaper gas at OFN Fuels in Oromocto  ;D


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## armychick2009 (10 Jan 2010)

To Ballz, Northern Girl and Loachman...

Loachman, thanks for the comment... while you were writing it, I was also writing a similar response.  

Northern Girl, Machine of Death... 1:15... Meet you there and SUFFER IN SILENCE... with one extra rep for the Queen!!

Ballz, all of the candidates absolutely agreed with what you said. Not sure how much more I can emphasize that -- we ALL saw the value such a program has on ALL recruits -- and we made sure to mention it at the course review at the end. We can only hope our words make their way to the top.

And, congrats on sending your card back. I'm Algonquin, Mohawk and M'qMaq, but I will never accept a treaty card. Treaty cards essentially are a symbol (and proof) that you are a ward of the Crown and government property. But as I briefly hinted at in my first post, this isn't to cover that political side of things. I'm perfectly happy and content being a non-status aboriginal. 

*And... I thought after I wrote my disclaimer in the original post, that the 15% that I pay in taxes? And my income taxes? Hell, I probably paid for myself to go to that program and all of the other candidates with the craploads of tax I've paid over the past 12 years. So, can I just say? That last PRTC program was courtesy of me, on the house!!! *


----------



## Jarnhamar (10 Jan 2010)

Loachman said:
			
		

> Either you missed it or I imagined it, but it was explained that they were essentially paid to undergo the training, just like anybody else would have been.


Thanks for the thoughtful Reply Loachman!
Maybe I read this wrong. I thought the $1200 was an extra on top of the regular pay.  I know they would get aid to undergo training but isn't the $1200 an extra bonus because they are aboriginal?



> They are one of - and the original - founding Peoples of this nation, yet many have been left behind. Not only does this give some of them a boost up, but it also enables them to contribute to Canadian society as a whole as well as their own communities. This is a pittance compared to the unaccounted-for billions that flow through Indian Affairs, and probably does far more good.



Hummmm. I'm not big on heritage. The fact that they were the founding people of this nation doesn't really move me. 
I'm more concerned about today and the world I'm leaving for my children. I don't see how $1200 is a life altering boost up but I'm going to reread the original article to see what I glossed over.  I agree 100% that contributing their their own community and Canada is vital.   Agree again about the unaccounted billions in the Indian affairs. I've seen first hand how that money gets used.  Maybe the $1200 should come from Indian affairs.




> Perhaps - but then we'd have to come up with some excuse to kick an awful lot of Maritimers and Newfoundlanders out, and that would cripple us far more than the FRP and Decade of Darkness ever did.


with no Newfoundlanders what would happen to  the RCR?  ;D



> I would not argue against attempting to attract more from other communities, but $1200.00 is not so likely to attract those who live in urban communities with numerous other distractions. We have Co-op programmes in many of those, however, and I believe that we pay participants of those.


I'm a white straight male so I'm sure I am biased on some level but I honestly don't see the point behind targeting specific ethnicity, religious backrounds, gender, sexual preference, skin colour. How does that make the Canadian Forces more competitive and badass? 
I think we should be targeting physical fitness, academics, skill.  
Though maybe  programs like this gets athletic, skilled, smart persons involved in the Canadian Forces whom would otherwise be hard to reach or from communities that don't commonly field recruits??



> It was good for a few chortles, too.


I'm not sure what a Chortles is.





> We have paid signing bonuses to people with desireable skills, should those not be extended to every applicant for reasons of fairness?


No.
The reason we give signing bonus's to people with desireable skills is because they have skills which we want which is probably also cheaper int he long run because it means less training, brings a level of professionalism in and competes with the civlian market.
You as a civilian  IT genius, doctor or pilot deserve a signing bonus to join the Canadian Forces.
I as a citizen with a native great grandmother or french grand mother (or scottish or austrian) or being gay or from a certain religion do not.

I think my problem is that I'm seeing this from a technical point of view and not a PAFO PR kinda way.



> I do not think that paying people to undergo any level of military training is "throwing it at a problem".


Totally agree.  My issue was because I thought it meant being paid extra.




> We *should* reflect the society from which we come, though, no?


I guess so. It just feels like the CF wants a certain percentage for image reasons. 



> _*And*_ ensure that as many as possible have the same opportunities to both contribute and benefit, no?


Again I guess. Haven't really thought about this.  Kinda reminds me though of the thread not too long ago where someone felt the CF should pay for their sex change so that they can join the CF and be given the same oppertunity to serve that everyone else has.


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## Loachman (10 Jan 2010)

ballz said:
			
		

> Here's what doesn't add up though, since we're talking about all the disadvantages we are trying to help said aboriginals with.
> 
> We're not targeting disadvantaged natives. We're targeting all of them.



I recognize that, as I said:



			
				Loachman said:
			
		

> It is impossible to be equally fair to every single person in this Country, obviously, but I believe that this strikes a reasonable balance.



There are youth living under disadvantages all over that could benefit from something similar, but would probably not be attracted by exactly the same thing.

Lines have to be drawn somewhere.

I do not know of any Muslim or Hindu or Chinese enclaves living in the sticks on the shore of Hudsons Bay.

And I do not see that other ethnic groups have been marginalized as much over a good chunk of their recent history, hence the confidence issues that Armychick2009 mentioned.

We also have to live within our paid ceiling, or have the government increase our size, or divest ourselves of a lot of Maritimers and Newfoundlanders, or some such if we are going to pursue all other communities.

Just because we cannot help/include all does not mean that we should not help/include some.


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## armychick2009 (10 Jan 2010)

Okay, last post for a bit, have to get to the gym 

Flawed Design... quickly,  here we go 

Yes, loachman made it more clear. It's just regular paid training. We didn't get to the end of the course with paid training and then ANOTHER cheque for a bonus. That's why I think it should be called an Internship, to help alleviate that confusion. 

Next, the problem with Indian Affairs paying the $1200. Well, then I wouldn't be allowed to go. Indian affairs only cares for status, treaty natives. I am not a status, treaty native. I'm *just* a non-status, meaning well... how much more clear can I get on that? Indian Affairs doesn't care about us, trust me. So, then the program only is available for those who are status and who may already have access to other programs that the non-status/Metis, etc. do not have access to. 

The DND does actually sort of have a program that recruits the smart people.  It's called the RMC? Paid salary plus free education? Damn, why didn't I consider this years ago before I doled out $60 000 in education ($20K I managed to pay as I went)...  (And yes, I know they have to give a minimum amount of years in exchange, but still they get paid a salary while I didn't... sounds like a bonus to me!)

Chortle? It's kind of like a laugh. But... more like smirk with a bit of a chuckle, usually directed towards a more dry, sarcastic type of humour. Yep, that's me! 

Have an awesome day!


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## vonGarvin (10 Jan 2010)

Loachman said:
			
		

> They are one of - and the original - founding Peoples of this nation, yet many have been left behind.


Perhaps they were first to settle here, but their caveman-era way of life and technology was superceded and destroyed by the settling (invading?) Europeans.  I don't count them as founders of this country.  We (the "royal" we, as in Europeans in general, and France and the United Kingdom in particular) founded "Canada" way back when.


			
				Loachman said:
			
		

> _*And*_ ensure that as many as possible have the same opportunities to both contribute and benefit, no?


Of course the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is equally vague in saying that equal opportunity for all, and some even more:


> 15. (1) *Every individual is equal before and under the law * and has the right to the equal protection and *equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin*, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.
> 
> Affirmative action programs
> 
> (2) Subsection (1) does not preclude any law, program or activity that has as its object the amelioration of conditions of disadvantaged individuals or groups including those that are disadvantaged because of race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.



My question is this: how much native blood is enough to make a person "native?"  Do we need racial purity laws?  Or can I claim that my great great great grandmother mated with a native, and had a half-native son? (my great great grandfather?)

Does "time on the continent" count?  If so, since my family settled here in the 1880s, do I count less?  Do I count more than those who came after?

Or, how about we do away with any special treatment, preferential or otherwise, based on race?


[/rant]

(I apologise.  I just find it illogical to have any program that focuses on "race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.")


> The DND does actually sort of have a program that recruits the smart people.  It's called the RMC? Paid salary plus free education?


That program is based on a person's potential.  Be it ROTP or UTPNCM, it's open and available to all.  All you need to do is perform (in school or otherwise).  
As for "free" education, you must serve for a certain time afterwards, albeit paid.  But you cannot break the contract without financial penalty.


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## Jarnhamar (10 Jan 2010)

Loahman, Armychick2009.  Thank you.
You've given me a lot to think about. I see where I made some misconceptions and mistakes in my argument and I'm glad you've both given me a different point of view I can take a look at.
I still disagree with some things but it's still nice to hear different opinions.




> I apologize.  I just find it illogical to have any program that focuses on "race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability


I do too.

It's probably for another thread but I don't agree with the 'we were here first we founded Canada this is our land sense of entitlement' kinda stuff. I'm trying not to let that colour my opinion in this thread. If that were the case why not argue that our Grandfathers fought in WW2 and saved us from ze germans so Canada owes us?  Ya probably another argument.

If this program is bringing in applicants that are turning out to be *exceptional* soldiers then I think it has merit.


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## ballz (10 Jan 2010)

armychick2009 said:
			
		

> nd, congrats on sending your card back. I'm Algonquin, Mohawk and M'qMaq, but I will never accept a treaty card. Treaty cards essentially are a symbol (and proof) that you are a ward of the Crown and government property. But as I briefly hinted at in my first post, this isn't to cover that political side of things. I'm perfectly happy and content being a non-status aboriginal.



I'm sending it back because I don't want or need any breaks off the backs of taxpayers. Too often did I see households in Fort McMurray with one "native" bringing in over 350k-400k a year, and not paying taxes, and their kids getting free post-secondary education etc because somehow, taxpayers owed it to them. What's even worse is, there IS aboriginal people, their "brothers and sisters," that need that money, and rather than paying taxes that they can more than afford to pay, they're actually taking food off the tables of their "brothers and sisters." I'll have no part of that...

If I didn't want to be government property I wouldn't have joined the military...

But back to the discussion at hand:

You seem to be set on telling us how good of soldiers Aboriginals will make. I don't doubt this for a second, and apparently neither does anybody here. I would guess it's for much the same reason that Newfoundlanders traditionally do well at soldiering.

You've also mentioned countless times how much people have benefited from this program. I don't doubt that either, and I doubt anybody here does. OF COURSE they will benefit from the program. The question is, who couldn't benefit from it? And since there is no one that couldn't benefit from this, why should one group be offered it and not the other.

What I question, is the fairness, and obviously, since you're course mates all echoed my statements and questions, you (they) must realize that there IS an issue with the fairness of offering this to Aboriginals and only Aboriginals. THAT is where the whole debate started, and still I see nothing to support that it's fair to offer this to Aboriginals and not the many many other different demographics that you could justify offering this to if you're going to offer it to Aboriginals (or another demographic).

My opinion is simple. If you can't do it fairly, don't do it at all. Either find a new and creative way, or use the money for something else. 

*Loachmen: "Just because we cannot help/include all does not mean that we should not help/include some."*

But it could be offered to all living poverty, and only awarded to the most competitive candidates within those parameters. That's fair*ER*, ensures we get quality candidates, and is not "creating differences."

*armychick2009: "Next, the problem with Indian Affairs paying the $1200. Well, then I wouldn't be allowed to go. Indian affairs only cares for status, treaty natives. I am not a status, treaty native. I'm *just* a non-status, meaning well... how much more clear can I get on that? Indian Affairs doesn't care about us, trust me. So, then the program only is available for those who are status and who may already have access to other programs that the non-status/Metis, etc. do not have access to."*

This comment is so full of irony its unreal.

So you're upset because this is unfair, but how is this any different than the military offering it to only Aboriginals? I'm sure somewhere there's someone living in poverty saying the same things. "The military only cares about Aboriginals in poverty." What's different between an (Aboriginal in poverty vs anybody living in Poverty) and (Status Indian vs. Non-Status Indian)? None...

*armychick2009: The DND does actually sort of have a program that recruits the smart people.  It's called the RMC? Paid salary plus free education? Damn, why didn't I consider this years ago before I doled out $60 000 in education ($20K I managed to pay as I went)...  (And yes, I know they have to give a minimum amount of years in exchange, but still they get paid a salary while I didn't... sounds like a bonus to me!)*

ROTP is offered to *EVERYBODY* and is awarded based on how competitive of an applicant you are. It is FAIR and it is EARNED. So in that aspect it's VERY irrelevant from what we're talking about here.

However, whether it's a "bonus" or not is debatable. For me, since I was joining the military anyway, yes, it is a bonus. 

For others, not so much:
A lot of my friends say to me that I've got it made because I'm getting paid to go to school and it's all free... Guess what, it ain't free. I usually tell them to "sign your life on the dotted line, and if you're good enough, you'll get the same 'bonus'" and they are quick to stop complaining.


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## Loachman (10 Jan 2010)

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> Thanks for the thoughtful Reply Loachman!



My pleasure.



			
				Flawed Design said:
			
		

> Maybe I read this wrong. I thought the $1200 was an extra on top of the regular pay.  I know they would get aid to undergo training but isn't the $1200 an extra bonus because they are aboriginal?



Apparently not - that was all that they got.



			
				Flawed Design said:
			
		

> Hummmm. I'm not big on heritage. The fact that they were the founding people of this nation doesn't really move me.



Unfortunately, such things define this country - like the English/French thing as well. One standard for all would be nice (very easy to say when a member of the majority group, that), but this is how Canada developed and we're stuck with it.



			
				Flawed Design said:
			
		

> I don't see how $1200 is a life altering boost up



Aside from the satisfaction of receiving money for hard work performed as opposed to just another handout, I do not think that it is. The programme itself is the boost, and the $1200.00 is just what they are paid to take the course.

I do not like handouts. They cause and promote dependency. This, however, is pay for work, which causes and promotes pride and independence.



			
				Flawed Design said:
			
		

> Maybe the $1200 should come from Indian affairs.



Whatever department it comes from, there is still only one community of taxpayers.



			
				Flawed Design said:
			
		

> with no Newfoundlanders what would happen to  the RCR?



I believe that the term that I used was "crippled".

And if somebody hasn't corrected it to "*The* RCR" as I type this, then I must.



			
				Flawed Design said:
			
		

> I'm a white straight male so I'm sure I am biased on some level but I honestly don't see the point behind targeting specific ethnicity, religious backrounds, gender, sexual preference, skin colour. How does that make the Canadian Forces more competitive and badass?



It does not.

The CF should reflect the society from which it comes, and all communities should contribute to and benefit from that society equally. I do not agree with such measures as lowering standards or restricting recruiting to favoured minorities or anything like that, but reaching out to the disadvantaged/marginalized in this way is different.



			
				Flawed Design said:
			
		

> I think we should be targeting physical fitness, academics, skill.
> Though maybe  programs like this gets athletic, skilled, smart persons involved in the Canadian Forces whom would otherwise be hard to reach or from communities that don't commonly field recruits??



We can train people to acceptable levels of fitness, knowledge, and skill - and we do.

We should, rather, be targetting people with the *qualities* that we want.

This does that, but within a group that may not otherwise have the opportunities offered.



			
				Flawed Design said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what a Chortles is.



There are a number of online dictionaries...



			
				Flawed Design said:
			
		

> It just feels like the CF wants a certain percentage for image reasons.



That's the effect of seeing one-of-everybody in all of the recruiting ads.

As I've said, it's simply an honest attempt to reflect our society at large. I'd like to see us achieve that someday, so long as it's not forced, as I believe that it is right and beneficial on many levels. We are a diverse society, and the CF can be a unifying factor.



			
				Flawed Design said:
			
		

> Kinda reminds me though of the thread not too long ago where someone felt the CF should pay for their sex change so that they can join the CF and be given the same oppertunity to serve that everyone else has.



That was not quite correct. The question was whether one could join and earn the money to pay for the surgery rather than have the surgery paid for up front (couldn't resist), if I remember accurately.


----------



## blacktriangle (10 Jan 2010)

Next time any of you are in Wainwright, check the stalls in the men's room of the main dining hall. It reads something akin to "Bold Eagle: 4 weeks, $4000, getting back at the white man for the last xx years". It's been a year or so but it might still be there if they haven't removed it. I think it was in the stall with other classics such as "2 CER, hard as ****" and "Wainwright, get out while you still can!".

I have seen some great aboriginal soldiers, and some very poor ones. It is the same for every group, including white straight males. One of the best that I ever had the pleasure of meeting sadly died this summer.

When I looked at him, I didn't see a native, I saw a soldier. When I looked at the bad ones, I didn't see natives, I saw bags of ****. Honestly, isn't that the way it is supposed to be?


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## ballz (10 Jan 2010)

WRT the whole "reflecting the society we live in," I have one opinion and one opinion only.

I read a piece that I can no longer find titled "What is a Canadian?" It started off stating that a terrorist had stated that he would pay civilians for the head of any Canadian, attached to the body or not. The author then asked "well what is a Canadian?"

The jist of it is, Canadians come in all shapes and colours, all backgrounds, all histories, all countries, have all or no parts between their legs, everything or anything.

The only thing that defined a Canadian in his mind, and now my mind, is somebody that believes in peace, equality, freedom, etc. All the values that we hold dear and fight to protect. Nothing else defines a Canadian, doesn't matter if he even lives in Canada. If you believe that, you are more than welcome in Canada, and I'll welcome you with open arms and call you a Canadian.

So, if our military should reflect our society, reflect Canadians, then I believe it only needs to fight for these things, and it's members only need to believe in these things. 

"I had as comrades in my [World War I army] section men whose names were: Cameron, Kimora, English, Gleidenstein, de Chapin, O'Shaughnessy. We didn't fall in or fall out as Irish Canadians, French Canadians, Dutch Canadians, Japanese Canadians. We wore the same uniform, with the same maple leaf badge, and we were proud to be known as Canadians, to serve as Canadians and to die, if it had to be, as Canadians."

-Lester B. Pearson


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## mariomike (10 Jan 2010)

If interested:
"The Canadian Forces Diversity Plan, formally called the Employment Equity Plan, was incorporated in 2006 as recognition of the changes to the Canadian mosaic and to reflect those changes within the CF.":
http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/commun/ml-fe/article-eng.asp?id=5200


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## armyvern (10 Jan 2010)

ballz said:
			
		

> WRT the whole "reflecting the society we live in," I have one opinion and one opinion only.
> 
> I read a piece that I can no longer find titled "What is a Canadian?" It started off stating that a terrorist had stated that he would pay civilians for the head of any Canadian, attached to the body or not. The author then asked "well what is a Canadian?"
> 
> ...



I'm just going to point out how deeply offended I was by your mentioning that Canadians either had "all or no parts between their legs".  

I've got all my parts!!  ;D


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## armychick2009 (10 Jan 2010)

Vern! I got all my parts too! *phew*

Ballz, I'll just keep it short (have some other things to do today!)

The paragraph about the Irony? I think you're missing a lot of what I"m trying to say and all of the candidates were... we really, truly honestly believe EVERYONE should have access to that. Why it's only aboriginal right now? *shrugs* I'm not the administrator of it... maybe ask them? 

Yes, people abuse the cards. There's abuse in all systems of all types of government and institutions. But I can't fix that either. 

"Owned by the government"... am VERY glad you picked up on that. That is one of the other things I wrestled with for the three weeks... here's my take on it. People are getting the cards because they are often misinformed. I'm not. I've done work at the United Nations level with regards to this. I'm pretty solid on the ins and outs of 'ownership', free, prior and informed consent and such. I've also done some work with the International Criminal Court with regards to this type of thing... so, don't think it wasn't on my mind. When I said I was the biggest skeptic at the beginning of this program, I wasn't kidding. I've done my homework, I've lived the life....

BUT... at the end, I have MADE THE CONSCIOUS CHOICE to become property of the government...* but not as an aboriginal... but as a soldier. *

Some people don't realise that they have the choice. And others are choosing to give up their sovereignty. And others, like myself... have consulted with elders, consulted within' myself and made that decision. Many in the program had the same concerns and this allowed us to work together to figure it out.

And, the wainwright latrine wall saying? Well... everyone has an opinion. My favourite T-Shirt saying that gives me a chuckle (not quite a chortle)... has a picture of aboriginal soldiers from a really old picture and says, "Homeland Security: Fighting Terrorism since 1492".... It's all a matter of perspective, isn't it?

http://www.fightingterrorismsince1492.com/

Thanks to everyone for keeping this a nice civil discussion, muchly appreciated!


----------



## Eye In The Sky (10 Jan 2010)

In this day of PC-ness, giving a signing bonus based on race is discrimation is it not?  Maybe some non-aboriginal applicants will end up suing the Fed Government, DND and the CF for discrimination.


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## armyvern (10 Jan 2010)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> In this day of PC-ness, giving a signing bonus based on race is discrimation is it not?  Maybe some non-aboriginal applicants will end up suing the Fed Government, DND and the CF for discrimination.



Say again over ... They *DID NOT * receive a "signing bonus". Rather they were paid to *successfully complete* a pre-recruitment training course (from the original post in this thread):



> Native people who sign up will receive $1,200 for successfully completing the pre-recruitment training course.



Geez, perhaps all of Canada's youth who are "not employed" in Area Cadet Summer Training Camps can now protest the fact that they *don't* "*get paid for work*" either by your the gist of your post. Either way, they got paid for successfully completing a pre-recruit training course, NOT for signing up to the CF.

A situation a whole lot different than pers who actually DID receive "signing bonuses" that not everyone else got. Did you protest the pilots who actually DID get signing bonuses for doing exactly ZERO more than any other person who enlisted? 

This 1200 bucks came with a caveat - and they actually got "paid" for successfully doing something that pilots, et you & me didn't do; that's a huge difference.


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## Eye In The Sky (10 Jan 2010)

I guess I wrote that post poorly.  It was meant as a "if they did".  

I am not protesting, for or against it  ;D


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## Loachman (10 Jan 2010)

armychick2009 said:
			
		

> "Owned by the government"



You will not be.

You will still be a free citizen, with all of the attendant rights.


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## ballz (10 Jan 2010)

Vern, I see where you are coming from, but I think Pilots with CPLs getting signing bonuses is a bad example. To say they haven't "successfully done something" is a bit stupid.

You might as well say Doctor's don't deserve some sort of signing bonus because they haven't "successfully completed something." I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder, but I consider Med School some "thing."

Either way, this discussion has moved PAST the $1200, and moved to "why is it being offered ONLY to Aboriginals, regardless of need, and not to other people that can easily demonstrate a need for it."


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## armyvern (10 Jan 2010)

ballz said:
			
		

> Vern, I see where you are coming from, but I think Pilots with CPLs getting signing bonuses is a bad example. To say they haven't "successfully done something" is a bit stupid.
> 
> You might as well say Doctor's don't deserve some sort of signing bonus because they haven't "successfully completed something." I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder, but I consider Med School some "thing."
> 
> Either way, this discussion has moved PAST the $1200, and moved to "why is it being offered ONLY to Aboriginals, regardless of need, and not to other people that can easily demonstrate a need for it."



Ballz, they got paid a bonus to extend their contract. Plain and simple. I sure didn't get paid that to extend my contract.

Why? Because they were in short supply. That justified it, but they didn't do anything special to earn it other than re-sign on the line. Their actual everyday paycheck already accounts for their "actual quals" and pilot specs. Same with docs. Same with any other trade that receives spec pay - that's why they get spec pay. That's got zero to do with receiving a signing bonus simply to re-sign their contract.


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## Loachman (10 Jan 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Did you protest the pilots who actually DID get signing bonuses for doing exactly ZERO more than any other person who enlisted?
> 
> This 1200 bucks came with a caveat - and they actually got "paid" for successfully doing something that pilots, et you & me didn't do; that's a huge difference.



To be clear, the signing bonuses aimed at us were targetted at Captains and Majors with fifteen to twenty years of experience, and during a time of great desperation. Anyone with less got nothing. Therefore, something was done "successfully" in order to be eligible.

There was a caveat, too - five years of restricted release, which is why so few took the money. We did not consider the loss of career freedom worth it.

Now, if they'd only issued leather jackets like the USAF and USN did...


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## armyvern (10 Jan 2010)

Loachman said:
			
		

> To be clear, the signing bonuses aimed at us were targetted at Captains and Majors with fifteen to twenty years of experience, and during a time of great desperation. Anyone with less got nothing. Therefore, something was done "successfully" in order to b eligible.
> 
> There was a caveat, too - five years of restricted release, which is why so few took the money. We did not consider the loss of career freedom worth it.
> 
> Now, if they'd only had issued leather jackets like the USAF and USN did...



Absolutely they were - as per my last post.

But, in the days of all this ... the CF simply refused to voluntarily release some pers of other trades as we couldn't afford to lose them. The CF held them to their contracts.

Many of the pilots pulling pin for the much greener (then) civ world of flying were those who put in VRs too ... the CF then offered them up a bonus to stay (with the 5 year caveat) ... but simply could have "denied their request for VR" just like they did to the troops who trades were in demand.

To be clear, I had no issues with the pilots getting signing bonus so that we could retain them (again, see my last post), but there was even a double standard to that in that while they recd bonus' friends of mine were simply told "VR not accepted due to operational requirements. Too bad, so sad."


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## ballz (10 Jan 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Ballz, they got paid a bonus to extend their contract. Plain and simple. I sure didn't get paid that to extend my contract.
> 
> Why? Because they were in short supply. That justified it, but they didn't do anything special to earn it other than re-sign on the line. Their actual everyday paycheck already accounts for their "actual quals" and pilot specs. Same with docs. Same with any other trade that receives spec pay - that's why they get spec pay. That's got zero to do with receiving a signing bonus simply to re-sign their contract.



Hmmm, I'll admit I was confused. Thank you for clearing up what you were saying.

Given this 15-20 year experience requirement though, and the required extension with set restrictions, I kinda see it as more of a retention package, which I see alllllll the time in Fort McMurray where people are in demand. Besides, if their contract was up, there certainly was nothing stopping them from going over to Air Canada and getting paid a lot more money for the same job (because they were in high demand....).

Either way, I don't see how race/ethnicity issues transfer over to skilled labour issues. A B.Sc or B.Ed holder has the same level of education as a B.Eng or B.Comm holder, but the former probably won't get paid as much as the latter with all things held equal, simply because Accountants and Engineers are in higher demand.

I don't see how Aboriginal soldiers are in higher demand than any other ethnicity of soldier.

Vern:

Just reading the last two posts... I have no idea of much of this obviously, but could your peers have been refused a VR because they were only in short-term demand, where as pilots they knew would be in demand well after their contracts ran out?

Seems weird, and clearly unfair, and hey, I'm only advocating fairness, and certainly not trying to say that the Government/DND does a good job of it.


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## Jarnhamar (10 Jan 2010)

ballz said:
			
		

> I don't see how Aboriginal soldiers are in higher demand than any other ethnicity of soldier.



Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
The human rights commission  decided that Canada only has 5% aboriginals in uniform and they want to see 15%   (numbers just made up) aboriginals in uniform and said to the CF- get more Native Canadians.  Only having 5% makes us look bad.

The CF in turn offers a pre-basic training course to both entice members to join AND to help prepare them for basic training and increase the likelihood of them passing.

Aboriginal soldiers may be in high demand this year however next year it can be anyone whom the Human rights dudes feel are underrepresented.
Different races, sexual orientation etc.. may find themselves enticed to join the Canadian Forces because the HR group feels they are under represented. Having a magic number of X% of Y race = a well balanced military force.


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## ballz (10 Jan 2010)

From what I gather, it was the military that decided that 5% wasn't enough.



			
				Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> From a brief look at StatsCan's web site, 2001 census data indicate about 4.5% of Canadians claimed North American Indian or Metis heritage.   Unless the population balance has shifted violently in the past four years, a 5% representation in the CF would be _over-representation_.   Is that still a problem, or is the 5% figure cited incorrect?



And then that would suggest it never was a problem anyway. (Keep thread started in 2005 and that quote is from 2005)


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## armyvern (10 Jan 2010)

ballz said:
			
		

> Hmmm, I'll admit I was confused. Thank you for clearing up what you were saying.
> 
> Given this 15-20 year experience requirement though, and the required extension with set restrictions, I kinda see it as more of a retention package, which I see alllllll the time in Fort McMurray where people are in demand. Besides, if their contract was up, there certainly was nothing stopping them from going over to Air Canada and getting paid a lot more money for the same job (because they were in high demand....).
> 
> ...



Not all pilots were releasing (putting in VRs) at points where their contracts were up ... many were doing so to head to the higher paying greener civ pastures. We needed to retain them.

As for "short-term" need of the others I spoke of ... it was not so much of a short term need, but that the CF had just gone through FRP releasing shitloads of pers and zero recruiting, then the crap hit the fan in the Balkans and other areas and we needed those pers for the foreseeable future. But, at the same time, our trades were also in demand on civvy street and so VRs were going in because those troops were also seeking out the greener pasture ...

But, the CF just said "too bad, operational requirements. VR refused". No signing bonus to stay in for those troops even though they were also in desperate demand. They simply got held to their contracts. I don't beget what the pilots got, what I do beget is that other trades were also in desperate demand and their VR applicants were not treated likewise. Coming to the end of one's contract and being offered incentive to stay is one thing (perhaps THAT is what the CF should be doing now ... for all trades!!) --- offering incentives to stay to another trade pers who was applying for VR while holding others to their contracts when they applied for VR is quite another matter.


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## armyvern (10 Jan 2010)

ballz said:
			
		

> From what I gather, it was the military that decided that 5% wasn't enough.
> 
> And then that would suggest it never was a problem anyway. (Keep thread started in 2005 and that quote is from 2005)



I think we'd have to know more about the 4.5% Brad quoted. Perhaps that 5% quoted only consisted of those who "claimed status" --- Ie not ArmyChick and the thousands more"non-status" indigenous Canadians like her.

I dunno.


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## Jarnhamar (10 Jan 2010)

[just a note that 5% number I gave was just an example, it could be 3% and HR wants 25%, just saying it seems about cold numbers to them]


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## armychick2009 (10 Jan 2010)

Army Vern, that's exactly it... right now only status people are included in that number (from what I was advised of) .... as a non-status, I won't be included in those final numbers I believe... unless they are changing things around to people who self-identify. 


Loachman...  


> "Owned by the government".
> 
> You will not be.
> 
> You will still be a free citizen, with all of the attendant rights



As soon as I join the forces, I will not be able to continue my work on the international or even the national level with regards human rights, indigenous people's rights, and other stuff I am working on. This includes work I have done at the United Nations and the ICC. This is due to the fact I have to remain non-partisan and not be able to affiliate myself with any particular political party or non-political party (if you understand aboriginal politics across Canada, you'll may understand why this could be an issue... PM me if you need me to clarify this part. It's not something I really want to delve into on this post as it's not really related to the topic at hand). So, the gist of it is... I can't continue the work I am doing now due to the oath/allegiance that I have  (or will do, at my swearing in)... but, this is an acceptable loss for me as there are others who can continue the work I have participated in. 

So, in that sense? I'm owned


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## ballz (10 Jan 2010)

FD: The 5% is from the OP

Vern:

OK, some trades got screwed for absolutely no reason. You've supported it, I believe you, we're on the same page.

Now, what is your opinion on THIS issue that you were originally trying to get at before this got derailed, and what is the comparison with what you were just talking about. Do you think this Aboriginal thing is good, bad, unfair, fair, or is it fair because people have been treated unfairly before so the more the merrier?

I just don't get what it is that you're trying to get at with this Pilot's thing, other than the CF was unfair before with a few people so it shouldn't be a surprise they're being unfair now?


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## armyvern (10 Jan 2010)

ballz said:
			
		

> I just don't get what it is that you're trying to get at with this Pilot's thing, other than the CF was unfair before with a few people so it shouldn't be a surprise they're being unfair now?



I got at the pilot thing because some were insisting that these indigenous pers were paid a signing bonus. They were not. They were paid to complete (successfully at that) a pre-recruitment course.

Pilots got paid a signing/retention bonus ... (with a 5 year caveat), many of whom were VRing prior to their contract being up. Other pers in same circumstances did not get paid a "signing/retention bonus" (even with a 5 year caveat) they, instead, just got held to their contracts ... and that actually a "siging bonus makes" for those pilots who recd but who were not at end of their contracts but were rather just VRing the same as the troops were.

They ARE NOT being unfair now, these indigenous pers got paid ... for working, not for signing anything.


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## Eye In The Sky (10 Jan 2010)

We aren't supposed to treat anybody different because of race, color, etc.  Right?

Seems to me that is what is happening here.  So...what next?  There isn't enough Cpl's in trade X that are racial background Y, so only people from background Y will be promoted??

:


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## armyvern (10 Jan 2010)

Oh my. How hard it is for some people to view things in the grand scheme of things.

These kids didn't take away a single posn from anyone else. They were paid to (successfully) undergo a *"pre-recruitment"* course after which they may/may not have *chosen* to join the CF. They didn't affect quotas, they didn't take Pte "Xs" job chances away --- nada.

They didn't step on anyone's toes and they got paid for working. I certainly have no issues with that.


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## Eye In The Sky (10 Jan 2010)

So, for argument sakes, if someone came up with a program where only white, english speaking Canadians were eligible, no one would have any problem with that?

I can see those news headlines now.   >


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## ballz (10 Jan 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> They ARE NOT being unfair now, these indigenous pers got paid ... for working, not for signing anything.



Yes but this opportunity is being given based on them being Aboriginal... that is unfair. 

And obviously there's Aboriginal people that want to take advantage of the opportunity, so there is probably other people that do too, but can't, and why not? What reason can the military give them to deny them that opportunity that they are giving to Aboriginals?

Tell me how that's fair. I think it's quite simply un-Canadian and rather embarrassing.

Vern: I'm glad you said they "didn't take a single position from anyone else." Because I disagree.

In the case of a well-off, or not-so-bad-off Aboriginal, they are taking away a position from a not-so-well-off (insert random demographic here)? And based on what? Not based on a competitive application. Not based on who needs the opportunity the most.


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## armyvern (10 Jan 2010)

ballz said:
			
		

> Vern: I'm glad you said they "didn't take a single position from anyone else." Because I disagree.
> 
> In the case of a well-off, or not-so-bad-off Aboriginal, they are taking away a position from a not-so-well-off (insert random demographic here)? And based on what? Not based on a competitive application. Not based on who needs the opportunity the most.



Really, not one of them were guaranteed a posn in the CF. Nor were any one of them obligated to take a spot in the CF.

How then, did they take posns away from someone else?


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## ballz (10 Jan 2010)

They took away a position at that 3 week trial thinger is what I was talking about.

Also, I get the feeling that if someone goes through that 3 week thing and gets paid 1200 dollars for it the CF is not going to turn them down if they apply...


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## Eye In The Sky (10 Jan 2010)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> So, for argument sakes, if someone came up with a program where only white, english speaking Canadians were eligible, no one would have any problem with that?
> 
> I can see those news headlines now.   >



AV,

You skipped or missed this question, but I'd like to see your answer.


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## armyvern (10 Jan 2010)

Ballz, I suppose that you'd actually be surprised to learn that I have PMd with Armychick earlier today, and that I actually believe this program "didn't go far enough".

I told her that the only issue that I had with this program was that it didn't go far enough, that I'd liked to have seen it offered on a far-wider spectrum than it actually was ... that I'd liked to have seen the opportunity offered to our disadvantged youth accross the nation, no matter their creed, race, colour, sexuality etc. That I believed this program went a long way towards the betterment of Canadian youth by both boosting self-confidence levels and by providing an insight into ways in which disadvantaged youth could go about breaking out of the cycle of poverty etc.

I also told her, that I never thought that THAT would happen though --- only because if it did, we'd have a bunch of liberal-assed left wing treehugging hippocrates [mostly from Moronto & BC] who would then scream about how:

*"The CF and the government is seducing our underprivledged and under-educated kids and "forcing them" into joining the CF so that they can send them over there to die as cannon fodder."*

And, don't kid yourself for one minute into thinking they wouldn't scream such - even if - exactly how it was for these indigenous people - they were under NO obligation to serve upon completion of said pre-recruitment course.

You see, there is a big picture out there - and it isn't all about the CF. It was a trial. A trial implies that only a certain segment gets chosen to participate. Much exactly like the CF trial on chest-rigs ... only "some" get to play.


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## armyvern (10 Jan 2010)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> AV,
> 
> You skipped or missed this question, but I'd like to see your answer.



I believe that I more than cover it in my last post ... you think left wing tards scream murder now ... just wait for it.

 apologize that my post wasn't, apparently, quick enough for you.


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## armychick2009 (10 Jan 2010)

Ballz, I didn't take a position away from anyone. None of these pre-recruits were guranteed a position. ALL who decided to join, went through their interviews down there. This is for logistics... does a recruiter want to fly up to middle of no-where northern Quebec to interview someone for a position? May as well do it while they are already down in an accessible location. 

My interview was done back in North Bay. I didn't get to jump any queues. I'm not guaranteed my trade. I interviewed for my trade like everyone else. I got scored, like everyone else. 

Without going into confidentiality (re, particular candidates), I will assure, not ALL who attended were suitable for employment. The army knows this, the recruit knew this. And this is where the army covers their arse by having all recruits be interviewed. If they don't pass the interview and aren't acceptable for a trade? Then they go home. We all had to do the CFAT... some of us didn't finish it. We are given a second chance... like ALL recruits ... to do it to pass. There's umpteen million threads for this.

So, if I applied for the same job you applied for... and I got it... I got it because I earned it... not because it was handed to me on a silver platter, believe me!

I'm fighting for my particular NCM trade(with maybe 1-5 positions, if lucky this year) against about 800 applicants. So... don't you worry. I'll only be taking the job away from someone else because I was more suited and qualified for it.... just like how I have ever received a job offer in the past. Hard work.


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## Eye In The Sky (10 Jan 2010)

AV, and others too,

For the record, I am neither for or against this program.  I am, however, not a fan of anything where individuals of a certain race/ethnic background are made "special".  I strongly believe that the person who gets any job should be the best person for that job.

I don't believe in politically-oriented people quoates.  They, IMO, do exactly what the government and PC society we live in today are claiming is not tolerable;  setting a certain group of people(s) apart from everyone else because of color or race.  

 :2c:


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## aesop081 (10 Jan 2010)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I don't believe in politically-oriented people quoates.



Neither do i, but i do beleive in following the law. Unless that law gets changed......

Some people comenting on this realy need to take some training on diversity and employment equity legislation before opening their yap too wide.


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## ballz (10 Jan 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> *"The CF and the government is seducing our underprivledged and under-educated kids and "forcing them" into joining the CF so that they can send them over there to die as cannon fodder."*
> 
> And, don't kid yourself for one minute into thinking they wouldn't scream such



You know, I've been given a blast of shit a few times by the powers that be around here for not reading entire threads.

Here is what I said just before you showed up:

"Perhaps this 3 week opportunity for 1200 dollars should be offered to all people who are living in poverty, regardless of whether it's on a reserve or in a back alley in MTL. EDIT: Oh wait... This would be military recruiting poverty and would be "immoral?" "

Sounds a lot like what you said in your PM eh? Maybe I'm not such a tard afterall.

If believing in equality makes me a left-wing tard, then so be it. I'll just go sit over in the corner of the rubber room with the rest of the tards that think handing out money and opportunities to people based on their ethnicity and nothing else is retarded.


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## Eye In The Sky (10 Jan 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I believe that I more than cover it in my last post ... you think left wing tards scream murder now ... just wait for it.



Yes you, the 2nd para was bang on IMO.



> apologize that my post wasn't, apparently, quick enough for you.



I just thought maybe you'd missed with the back-and-forth with Ballz  8)

or....

that you thought...GFY EITS  :blotto:


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## Michael OLeary (10 Jan 2010)

OK, so it's $1200 per eligible candidate.  I have a few questions:

1. Taking the Recruiting System in total, i.e., all parts that come into play up to the signing of an enrollment form, what do we spend per applicant across the country (whether or not they sign)?

2. As a cost effective Recruiting tool, how does this compare to the Snowbirds (which are often promoted as a recruiting tool)?

3. If this program is canceled, will my taxes go down?  By how much?

4. Should I be more or less concerned about this than the delay in issuing new rucksacks because it takes three days to train an NCO to fit the frames to individual soldiers?


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## armyvern (10 Jan 2010)

ballz said:
			
		

> You know, I've been given a blast of shit a few times by the powers that be around here for not reading entire threads.
> 
> Here is what I said just before you showed up:
> 
> ...



1) I didn't call you a tard. My ref to liberal tards is all those far left liberal treehugging tards who find anything they can to scream blue murder about when it comes to the CF. I also thought that was quite clear in the context of my post --- apparently not;

2) My PM as I outlined my stance below was sent before your post about "immoralality".   (thus, your point about me "not reading" means squat to me) and

3) You asked what my thoughts were on "offering to other minorities etc" and that is exactly why I posted my sentiments that I had sent via PM to Armychick.


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## Kat Stevens (10 Jan 2010)

I'm thinking everyone needs to pull their quills in a bit and stop taking internet babble so personally.


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## Jarnhamar (10 Jan 2010)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> We aren't supposed to treat anybody different because of race, color, etc.  Right?
> 
> Seems to me that is what is happening here.  So...what next?  There isn't enough Cpl's in trade X that are racial background Y, so only people from background Y will be promoted??
> 
> :


Bingo



			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Oh my. How hard it is for some people to view things in the grand scheme of things.
> 
> These kids didn't take away a single posn from anyone else. They were paid to (successfully) undergo a *"pre-recruitment"* course after which they may/may not have *chosen* to join the CF. They didn't affect quotas, they didn't take Pte "Xs" job chances away --- nada.
> 
> They didn't step on anyone's toes and they got paid for working. I certainly have no issues with that.



The issue with this is that some feel Aboriginals getting singled out for this and not other races etc.. is unfair.
If whites (only) were given access to a pre-recruitment package and paid $1200 do you think anyone would be up in arms over it?


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## armyvern (11 Jan 2010)

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> The issue with this is that some feel Aboriginals getting singled out for this and not other races etc.. is unfair.
> If whites (only) were given access to a pre-recruitment package and paid $1200 do you think anyone would be up in arms over it?



Absolutely some would have issues with it. Just as "Platoon X" had issues with it when they had to use tac vests in theatre because they were not part of the "trial" group who was chosen to use chest rigs. Just because some get up in arms about it, doesn't mean there isn't a bonified "good intention" behind the *trial*. It was a minority trial ... ergo a minority group got chosen - they happened to be aboriginals, not white. Should we run red-headed female trials next? I think I'm a minority --- ergo would that qualify?

Was platoon X therefore discriminated agianst? 

You'd think you guys would be out doing something about pharmaceutical companies "doing trials on how drug X affects WASP men aged 40" or something because your own particular demographic wasn't chosen for the study and trial ... trials for white folks happen too. This one, just didn't happen to be one of those.


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## ballz (11 Jan 2010)

This is a trial? I was under the impression they've been doing this for 5 years now?


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## Remius (11 Jan 2010)

Well, where to start.

My previous job had me promoting this program among many more.  Raven, Bold Eagle, ALOY etc.  The fact is that the Canadian Forces has targetted groups in its diversity policy.  Women, Aboriginals and Visible minorities.  Disabled people and sexual orientation are not targets.  There are no quotas.  Only targets.  Various means are used to achieve these targets or at least attempt to achieve them.  The various aboriginal programs are designed to attract mroe aboriginals to the CF.  CFAEP is designed to give aboriginals a taste of military life and to help them achieve success on basic training further down the road.   No one is given a free pass when they take this course.  CFAT must be passed, drug policy adhered to, PT and medical.  Just like anyone else.   Also, we probably save some money in the long run.  For example, an Inuit girl went on CFAEP and figured the military wasn't for her.  Why?  Trees.  Yes trees.  No trees where she was from.  Freaked her out.  How much more money would it have cost if she had signed up gone to St-Jean only to figure that out when she got there?  This is an extreme example but the fact is that the program is designed to help aboriginals transition and be successful if they wish to pursue a career in the CF.  The cultural divide (depending on where they are from) is in some cases staggering.   And no, it has nothing to do with poverty.   No different than a reservist trying that first then making the jump (21 days of basic, no obligation, paid as well).  

We spend a lot of money on targetting Women and Visible Minorities as well.  The point is to attract them and inform them of their options.  We are below the numbers set out for us.  The CF should be proud that it is trying to do so without setting quotas.  Now my numbers might be out of date but Aboriginals were one of the target groups we actually have success in trying to reach our targets, the others, not so much.


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## Forgotten_Hero (11 Jan 2010)

> Just like anyone else.   Also, we probably save some money in the long run.  For example, an Inuit girl went on CFAEP and figured the military wasn't for her.  Why?  Trees.  Yes trees.  No trees where she was from.  Freaked her out.  How much more money would it have cost if she had signed up gone to St-Jean only to figure that out when she got there?



What about a city boy from Toronto that joins and realises he doesnt like the forrest? Can he do the same?


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## aesop081 (11 Jan 2010)

Nero said:
			
		

> What about a city boy from Toronto that joins and realises he doesnt like the forrest? Can he do the same?



As i said before, you need to go and read and take training on diversity and employment equity legislation.

These are not military rules, they are Canadian Law. "City boy from Toronto" is not on the list for EE laws. The CF must work within the law.

I'm not a big fan of these policies either but at least i made an effort to learn the law since i have to work within in.


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## Remius (11 Jan 2010)

Nero said:
			
		

> What about a city boy from Toronto that joins and realises he doesnt like the forrest? Can he do the same?



I think you already know the answer to that.  The cultural barriers that some aboriginals have are somewhat different than a city boy coming from Toronto.  Don't even try and compare the two.

The CF more than any other fedral organisation is taking a proactive approach to this.  Is the cost and effort to run this course worth the return?  Probably not.  Only a small proportion of those that attend enroll.  Not suprising though.  On a normal three to one ratio a course of 30 applicants, only ten make it through to training.  But recruiting for aboriginals presents a whole series of problems that do not fit into traditional recruiting and that number is smaller.  The thing is that we can't just look at a dollar for dollar value when we talk about recruiting for various targeted diversity groups.  But from a diversity perspective, the program is successful.  So successful that it has expanded to include reserves, naval reserves and RMC in similar programs.   What we really need to see is how many pass BMQ having gone through the CFAEP programs.


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## dapaterson (11 Jan 2010)

There's a less altrusitic reason to do these things as well.

Canada's demographics are changing.  Making efforts now to reach out to communities that are under-represented in the CF should mean increased success in the future.  And as the aborigianl population in Canada is exapnding much more quickly than others, reaching out there is just good forward planning.


Interesting that we have yet to consider dedicated infantry Bns with First Nation heritages or traditions; in WWI and WWII we exploited British traditions and stood up Highland and Irish regiments...


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## Forgotten_Hero (11 Jan 2010)

> As i said before, you need to go and read and take training on diversity and employment equity legislation.
> 
> These are not military rules, they are Canadian Law. "City boy from Toronto" is not on the list for EE laws. The CF must work within the law.



Perhaps I am not so much against the CF following the law but the law itself?



> I think you already know the answer to that.  The cultural barriers that some aboriginals have are somewhat different than a city boy coming from Toronto.  Don't even try and compare the two.
> 
> The CF more than any other fedral organisation is taking a proactive approach to this.  Is the cost and effort to run this course worth the return?  Probably not.  Only a small proportion of those that attend enroll.  Not suprising though.  On a normal three to one ratio a course of 30 applicants, only ten make it through to training.  But recruiting for aboriginals presents a whole series of problems that do not fit into traditional recruiting and that number is smaller.  The thing is that we can't just look at a dollar for dollar value when we talk about recruiting for various targeted diversity groups.  But from a diversity perspective, the program is successful.  So successful that it has expanded to include reserves, naval reserves and RMC in similar programs.   What we really need to see is how many pass BMQ having gone through the CFAEP programs.



I am not so uptight about the money side of this situation. My thoughts on the subject are, however, that if you want to stop discriminating based on race or culture, stop seeing people based on their race and culture. 

I find it a bit contradictory to basically say "Hey, we're not racist. See? We hired that black guy, and that native." I think that only when we stop identifying people as part of a certain race will we truly help eliminate discrimination.


----------



## aesop081 (11 Jan 2010)

Nero said:
			
		

> Perhaps I am not so much against the CF following the law but the law itself?



Take it up with your MP. The CF is obligated to follow the law. The point that we have to set ourselves up for success later ( by making progress with growing segments of the population) does have *some* merit, however.


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## armyvern (11 Jan 2010)

Nero said:
			
		

> I find it a bit contradictory to basically say "Hey, we're not racist. See? We hired that black guy, and that native." I think that only when we stop identifying people as part of a certain race will we truly help eliminate discrimination.



Perhaps you're looking at it the wrong way then. How about you look at it this way:

"Hey, we're not racist, we're actually quite good at adapting to diverse demographics ... don't believe us? Come on out and try this as a sample of what we have to offer to you and, if you're impressed, tell your friends."

The lens one wears upon their eyes sometimes carry with them the ability to tint things a different colour. try looking at it through other colours sometimes ... you may just find yourself pleasantly surprised.


----------



## Forgotten_Hero (11 Jan 2010)

> "Hey, we're not racist, we're actually quite good at adapting to diverse demographics ... don't believe us? Come on out and try this as a sample of what we have to offer to you and, if you're impressed, tell your friends."



I do agree that it could work, but I cant support it from an ethical perspective unless my neighbour has the same opportunity to "test drive" the CF as an aboriginal.

Maybe someone could clarify something else for me aswell. The aboriginals on these types of courses, are they _only_ from reservations, or not? I heard plenty of people say that its a good way to, well, help the aboriginals stay away from the problems on some of these reservations, so is it only limited to them?



> The lens one wears upon their eyes sometimes carry with them the ability to tint things a different colour. try looking at it through other colours sometimes ... you may just find yourself pleasantly surprised.



The same can be said for either side though. I'd like to think that I did attempt to see things through other colours, but no one, not even myself, can say objectively whether thats true or not.


----------



## Brasidas (11 Jan 2010)

Nero said:
			
		

> Maybe someone could clarify something else for me aswell. The aboriginals on these types of courses, are they _only_ from reservations, or not? I heard plenty of people say that its a good way to, well, help the aboriginals stay away from the problems on some of these reservations, so is it only limited to them?



Nope. ArmyChick was saying that this program's for "anyone who identifies themselves as aboriginal", regardless of whether they are status or non-status. I'm not sure if my naturalized Arabic friend could apply with a straight face, though.

So while you may have someone from Nunavut who has an extreme reaction to trees, as mentioned in an earlier post, you could have an MD's son who's 1/16 native, born and raised in downtown Toronto, qualified for the program.


----------



## LineJumper (11 Jan 2010)

Well, I don't see as this would have helped me come to a decision on joining, as none of these programs existed when I joined. Is it a good thing? Sure. I've instructed Bold Eagle as well, thought it was a pretty good program (aside from being posted to Wainwright). $1200 is nothing. I feel more remorse for the reservists that lost contracts, than to the few recruits that decided/ were unable to continue a career in the CF.

Oh yeah, I carry a card and abuse it on occasion....(sometimes you cant find a toothpick for the life of ya!)

 :2c:


----------



## Eye In The Sky (11 Jan 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Perhaps you're looking at it the wrong way then. How about you look at it this way:
> 
> "Hey, we're not racist, we're actually quite good at adapting to diverse demographics ... don't believe us? Come on out and try this as a sample of what we have to offer to you and, if you're impressed, tell your friends."
> 
> The lens one wears upon their eyes sometimes carry with them the ability to tint things a different colour. try looking at it through other colours sometimes ... you may just find yourself pleasantly surprised.



I like that way of explaining it.  *golf clap*


----------



## armychick2009 (12 Jan 2010)

> Nero wrote:
> I am not so uptight about the money side of this situation. My thoughts on the subject are, however, that if you want to stop discriminating based on race or culture, stop seeing people based on their race and culture.
> 
> I find it a bit contradictory to basically say "Hey, we're not racist. See? We hired that black guy, and that native." I think that only when we stop identifying people as part of a certain race will we truly help eliminate discrimination.




Thanks for your comment... I suppose though the best way I can reply to this is, Your national protective forces (DND) should consist a fair representation of the demographics from the lands at which it is to protect... Canada. Sea to sea to sea to US border. Having a demographically representative army prevents a lot of issues... which, I won't delve into because they are infinite. Everyone use their imagination!


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## vonGarvin (12 Jan 2010)

armychick2009 said:
			
		

> Thanks for your comment... I suppose though the best way I can reply to this is, Your national protective forces (DND) should consist a fair representation of the demographics from the lands at which it is to protect... Canada. Sea to sea to sea to US border. Having a demographically representative army prevents a lot of issues... which, I won't delve into because they are infinite. Everyone use their imagination!


Screw demographics.  If left-handed blonde lesbians make the best pilots, then so be it.  Base it on merit and capabilities alone.  That is fair and equal treatment.
I would argue that having a "demographically representative army" (on purpose, vice by happenstance) creates mistrust and also ensures that the right people are not in the right job, though they may look good doing it.


----------



## Remius (12 Jan 2010)

Technoviking:  The CF does not have any quotas based on age, gender, culture or whatever.  Only attraction tools to get certain groups to actually apply to better meet our diversity targets.  Rest assured that people that are attracted to the CF via these means still have to compete and meet all the requirements.  No free pass.  armychick went through the program but still has to be merited agaisnt all other applicants applying for her trade.


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## armychick2009 (12 Jan 2010)

Mistrust is created when a people who are to protect "us", doesn't comprise of "us".

"Us" in this case, is any demographic group in Canada. Poor. Rich. White. Black. Immigrant. Indigenous.  When armies aren't comprised this way, things get out of control. For example, I wonder how many Jewish people were in the SS?


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## vonGarvin (12 Jan 2010)

Hi Crantor
I understand that.  That was not my issue.  My only issue was with the assertion that a diverse forces is "better" and by great extension, important, in the CF.  The job is the job.  If right handed heterosexuals aren't attracted to the MSEOp trade, then so be it.  I don't think it's worth the effort to pander to them.  Just show the job for what it is, and they will come, whoever "they" are, and I could care less, so long as they can perform, left-handed or right handed.  That's all.


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## Kat Stevens (12 Jan 2010)

armychick2009 said:
			
		

> Mistrust is created when a people who are to protect "us", doesn't comprise of "us".
> 
> "Us" in this case, is any demographic group in Canada. Poor. Rich. White. Black. Immigrant. Indigenous.  When armies aren't comprised this way, things get out of control. For example, I wonder how many Jewish people were in the SS?



Sorry, but this is way offside.  To equate 21st century Canada to Nazi Germany is completely out to lunch.  I would have expected better.


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## vonGarvin (12 Jan 2010)

armychick2009 said:
			
		

> Mistrust is created when a people who are to protect "us", doesn't comprise of "us".
> 
> "Us" in this case, is any demographic group in Canada. Poor. Rich. White. Black. Immigrant. Indigenous.  When armies aren't comprised this way, things get out of control. For example, I wonder how many Jewish people were in the SS?


Reductio ad Hitlerum.  Oi vey!
I suppose then the the general public doesn't trust us then?  Of the 138 deaths in Afghanistan, only nine were either not Caucasion or not male.  So, logic says that 129 white males died in Afghanistan, 3 women (again, white), six were visible minorities.  I could care less what gender or race they were.  "They" *were*  "us".  Fellow Canadian citizens.


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## Jarnhamar (12 Jan 2010)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Hi Crantor
> I understand that.  That was not my issue.  My only issue was with the assertion that a diverse forces is "better" and by great extension, important, in the CF.  The job is the job.  If right handed heterosexuals aren't attracted to the MSEOp trade, then so be it.  I don't think it's worth the effort to pander to them.  Just show the job for what it is, and they will come, whoever "they" are, and I could care less, so long as they can perform, left-handed or right handed.  That's all.



Good point.

This was an eye opening thread.

I'll revisit it when we offer incentive programs to homosexuals transgender bicurious and two-spirited individuals to join up.


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## Jarnhamar (12 Jan 2010)

armychick2009 said:
			
		

> Mistrust is created when a people who are to protect "us", doesn't comprise of "us".
> 
> "Us" in this case, is any demographic group in Canada. Poor. Rich. White. Black. Immigrant. Indigenous.  When armies aren't comprised this way, things get out of control. For example, I wonder how many Jewish people were in the SS?



Hummmmm??   :-\


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## TCBF (12 Jan 2010)

armychick2009 said:
			
		

> Mistrust is created when a people who are to protect "us", doesn't comprise of "us". ...



- The mistrust works both ways as well.  After generations of Canadians of European heritage carrying the load - statistically - some may ask when the 'new' Canadians are going to start pulling their weight.  By 'new', I mean nations and cultures who were largely not a factor 1867 - 1967.  

- The only fair way to apply racial and cultural quotas is through conscription.

- As long as the 'internal' guidance given to the recruiting system remains 'internal', gossip will prevail.


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## Remius (12 Jan 2010)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Hi Crantor
> I understand that.  That was not my issue.  My only issue was with the assertion that a diverse forces is "better" and by great extension, important, in the CF.  The job is the job.  If right handed heterosexuals aren't attracted to the MSEOp trade, then so be it.  I don't think it's worth the effort to pander to them.  Just show the job for what it is, and they will come, whoever "they" are, and I could care less, so long as they can perform, left-handed or right handed.  That's all.



I get where you are coming from.  However the CF should be a reflection of our society.  And yes a more diverse CF is a better one.  We benefit from having a large pool of diverse people.  It allows us to be more effective.  I'm sure you can see the benefit of having someone of a different culture or gender when dealing with people of those groups.  No one is saying hire them based on that.  But if we can hire the best person for the job and get the advantage of having that diversity then why not?  The CF is more than just "the job" because "the job" may require more than what "the job" says it is on paper.


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## armychick2009 (12 Jan 2010)

No, I'm not comparing 21st century today to the holocaust. What I am saying is, if you aim for a military that does not include those which it is to protect, you run a risk.

I use the most extreme case of this, to point it out.  Definitely not comparing, believe me. Canada will never get to that point. Neither will Germany again.  And, I'm glad I provoked that response, it's exactly what I wanted. A sense of extremism. But those ideas started small and grew to the point of no-return. It was a case-in-point of what happens when an armed forces isn't representative of who it is designed to protect.  What is the tipping point?


I will now point out that I have had two friends die overseas. Another was my friend's husband. With regards to WW2, my grandfather was a POW for three years in North Africa. My great-uncle died. Another went missing when he returned to Canada after being part of some elite groups over there (shell-shock, started a new life elsewhere). I also have German Jewish ancestry from the other side of my non-native family.  WW1, my great-grandfather participated as well and was listed as Missing, for two years overseas until he was finally discovered to be a prisoner at the end of war.  So, please don't think I was "belittling" that war (or the past, present conflicts as well) whatsoever. 

My apologies if anyone was offended, that wasn't the intention.


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## Kat Stevens (12 Jan 2010)

To take your point to it's logical conclusion then, the SS was the very epitome of the people it was created to protect, wouldn't you say?


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## vonGarvin (12 Jan 2010)

armychick2009 said:
			
		

> My apologies if anyone was offended, that wasn't the intention.


I, for one, wasn't offended.  No apology required, IMHO.


----------



## vonGarvin (12 Jan 2010)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> To take your point to it's logical conclusion then, the SS was the very epitome of the people it was created to protect, wouldn't you say?


As a side bar, I would argue "yes", and it wasn't just Germans either.  The Waffen-SS, the armed wing of the Schutzstaffel, was comprised of a number of volunteers.  These volunteers consisted of Germans, Ethnic Germans living in foreign lands ("Volksdeutsche"), Germanics (eg: Dutch, Scandanavians) and "others" (Croats, Bosnians and so forth).  It was, in effect, the first pan-European armed force in modern times.
EDIT TO ADD: The Wehrmacht (including Heer, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine) was comprised of almost exclusively Germans only, with some notable exceptions, such as the "Blue" Division, comprised of Spanish volunteers.  The Waffen-SS was, ironically, the most ethnically diverse armed force fighting for the Germans in WW 2.

Now, back on topic ;D


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## George Wallace (12 Jan 2010)

Crantor said:
			
		

> .........  However the CF should be a reflection of our society.  ...........



The CF is a reflection of Canadian society.  Those who honestly and truely care about the nation in which they live, apply; those who have no interest in Canada, no loyalties except to self, etc. do not apply to join the CF.


----------



## Forgotten_Hero (12 Jan 2010)

> I suppose though the best way I can reply to this is, Your national protective forces (DND) should consist a fair representation of the demographics from the lands at which it is to protect... Canada. Sea to sea to sea to US border.



I think that the DND should consist of whatever demographics joined the army. If, for some strange reason, no aboriginals ever joined the army, that doesnt mean we're racist. It simply means no aboriginals joined the army.  For someone to then look at this statistic and say "Wow, we need to focus our efforts more on recruiting aboriginals" we're now basing our actions on race. Giving people of a certain skin colour priviliedges that others dont have. The intention isnt necessairly bad, but as I said earlier, if you want to rid the world of racism, I think you need to stop basing your actions on the colour of some skin.



> Base it on merit and capabilities alone.  That is fair and equal treatment.



Indeed. This is pretty common in the military though, and isnt just limited to race but gender and even age in a way too.


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## Forgotten_Hero (12 Jan 2010)

> Mistrust is created when a people who are to protect "us", doesn't comprise of "us".
> 
> "Us" in this case, is any demographic group in Canada. Poor. Rich. White. Black. Immigrant. Indigenous.  When armies aren't comprised this way, things get out of control. For example, I wonder how many Jewish people were in the SS?



I think "mistrust" is a non-issue. My unit isnt representative of the demographic, but I see no mistrust there. I think it would be the vast, vast minority that would "mistrust" the military because of such an issue. The ones that do? Well, on the other side of the fence, I can see a bit _more_ people distrusting an establishment that treats people different based on their race.



> I suppose then the the general public doesn't trust us then?  Of the 138 deaths in Afghanistan, only nine were either not Caucasion or not male.  So, logic says that 129 white males died in Afghanistan, 3 women (again, white), six were visible minorities.  I could care less what gender or race they were.  "They" were  "us".  Fellow Canadian citizens.



Indeed. Ask any person off the street what "race" any of those dead soldiers are. I doubt any of them would care, nor had even thought of that before you asked the question. The only thing important is that they're Canadian soldiers. They're not identified as "White Canadian soldiers" or "Black Canadian soldiers" or "Aboriginal Canadian Soldiers", just Canadian soldiers.



> Mistrust is created when a people who are to protect "us", doesn't comprise of "us". ...



Which is not an issue. We're not recruiting people in Africa. We're recruiting Canadians, therefore, they are "us", no matter what their skin colour. If someone "mistrusts" the military because they dont see enough "Aboriginals" in it, well, I'd think of them the same as if they said they mistrust the military because there's not enough "white" people in it. I'd consider them racist. 



> But if we can hire the best person for the job and get the advantage of having that diversity then why not?



If we can hire the best person for the job, then "diversity" has no say in this.


----------



## Jarnhamar (12 Jan 2010)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> As a side bar, I would argue "yes", and it wasn't just Germans either.  The Waffen-SS, the armed wing of the Schutzstaffel, was comprised of a number of volunteers.  These volunteers consisted of Germans, Ethnic Germans living in foreign lands ("Volksdeutsche"), Germanics (eg: Dutch, Scandanavians) and "others" (Croats, Bosnians and so forth).  It was, in effect, the first pan-European armed force in modern times.
> EDIT TO ADD: The Wehrmacht (including Heer, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine) was comprised of almost exclusively Germans only, with some notable exceptions, such as the "Blue" Division, comprised of Spanish volunteers.  The Waffen-SS was, ironically, the most ethnically diverse armed force fighting for the Germans in WW 2.
> 
> Now, back on topic ;D


Offtopic a moment.
I love when someone introduces something to do with Nazi's in an internet debate for shock value then pointed out various inaccuracies of their statement.
This is probably the first time I've even heard mention of the "races" of the fallen soldiers from Afghanistan. That's saying something about Canada- right on.


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## mariomike (12 Jan 2010)

For reference. 

Canadian Forces Employment Equity Regulations:
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/PDF/Regulation/S/SOR-2002-421.pdf
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/SOR-2002-421/index.html

CF EMPLOYMENT EQUITY (EE) PLAN:
http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/ps/we-mt/eep-pem/eepl-peel-eng.asp
http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/ps/we-mt/eep-pem/doc/letter-lettre_eng.pdf

CF Employment Equity (EE) Plan - Annex B:
http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/ps/we-mt/eep-pem/eep-pee-ann-b-eng.asp
http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/ps/we-mt/eep-pem/doc/annexes-eng.pdf

Annex C:
http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/ps/we-mt/eep-pem/eep-pee-ann-c-eng.asp
http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/ps/we-mt/eep-pem/doc/annexes-eng.pdf

CF:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_6972/is_2_10/ai_n28128731/
http://www.thestar.com/News/article/239095
http://www.nato.int/ims/2006/win/pdf/canada_national_report_2006.pdf
http://www.journal.dnd.ca/vo8/no3/jung-eng.asp


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## armyvern (12 Jan 2010)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Reductio ad Hitlerum.  Oi vey!
> I suppose then the the general public doesn't trust us then?  Of the 138 deaths in Afghanistan, only nine were either not Caucasion or not male.  So, logic says that 129 white males died in Afghanistan, 3 women (again, white), six were visible minorities.  I could care less what gender or race they were.  "They" *were*  "us".  Fellow Canadian citizens.



Half hour of writing a response ... gone with that last lag in the site.


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## George Wallace (12 Jan 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Half hour of writing a response ... gone with that last lag in the site.



It is for days like today where you compose your work in a Word Doc, checking spelling and grammar and then copy and paste to army.ca.      ;D


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## armyvern (12 Jan 2010)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> It is for days like today where you compose your work in a Word Doc, checking spelling and grammar and then copy and paste to army.ca.      ;D



The site seemed absolutely fine when I logged in after class today.

Had I read the "another upgrade" thread prior to reading this one & writing my response here ... I just may well have done that.

But, my ESP was not working as it usually doesn. Ergo, I'm now heading out to supper; don't know what the Mess has in store for me tonight. I'll work at re-writing a response after dinner because I'm damn well starved to death waiting for the page to load!!  8)


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## George Wallace (12 Jan 2010)

Chicken and rice.  Fish and potatoes.


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## Forgotten_Hero (12 Jan 2010)

> I could care less what gender or race they were.  "They" were  "us".  Fellow Canadian citizens.



To add to that, when I see a soldier I think he is "one of us" because he's a Canadian citizen, regardless of his skin colour. Sounds to me that if someone doesnt see someone as "one of us" because he's not White, or not Black, or not Aboriginal, its that person thats putting up walls between races...


----------



## armyvern (12 Jan 2010)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Chicken and rice.  Fish and potatoes.



You were half right; you'd have been bang on were it Friday today.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (12 Jan 2010)

armychick2009 said:
			
		

> Thanks for your comment... I suppose though the best way I can reply to this is, Your national protective forces (DND) should consist a fair representation of the demographics from the lands at which it is to protect the absolutely best possible people that can and are willing to do the job





> Having a demographically representative army prevents a lot of issues... which, I won't delve into because they are infinite. Everyone use their imagination!



What [non-political] issues would/does/could this solve?  You know, I've been in for 20 or so years, and I have never seen the benefits/drawbacks to this so-called "demographic representation".  I _have_, however, seen the results of not having the best person for the job.  It didn't matter what their sex/religion/race/favorite ice cream flavour was.  It only mattered that they were/were not the best person for the job.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (12 Jan 2010)

Crantor said:
			
		

> I get where you are coming from.  However the CF should be a reflection of our society.  And yes a more diverse CF is a better one.



Great.  Anything to back that up (other than your opinion)?  You've said it...substantiate it please.  I've been in effective/ineffective units/sub-units before...it was never based on our cultural diversity.  It was never even considered so I see your statement as very polished BUT also misleading and not the way it really is.



> The CF is more than just "the job" because "the job" may require more than what "the job" says it is on paper.



Huh?


----------



## armyvern (12 Jan 2010)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Hi Crantor
> I understand that.  That was not my issue.  My only issue was with the assertion that a diverse forces is "better" and by great extension, important, in the CF.  The job is the job.  If right handed heterosexuals aren't attracted to the MSEOp trade, then so be it.  I don't think it's worth the effort to pander to them.  Just show the job for what it is, and they will come, whoever "they" are, and I could care less, so long as they can perform, left-handed or right handed.  That's all.



All righty then, here I go with the response that I attempted earlier ... My response is in "ref" to the "mis-trust" brought up earlier in this thread - and frankly, I'm just too damn lazt to go back to find that particular post ...  ;D
___________________________________

Here's my thoughts on "mistrust". I don't believe that the intention of Armychick's earlier post was to infer that the majority of average Canadians "mistrusted" their military which is how you took it; the internet has a funny way of doing things like that.

I don't believe that the "majority" of Canadians "mistrust" their military/govnt, but of those Canadians who DO mistrust their military --- I'm willing to wager a strip-tease on the odds that MOST of them belong to Canadian visible minority groups. 

I say that because a great many immigrants to this country came from war-torn nations or otherwise previously lived in areas subject to dictatorships, martial law etc. If I were one of them - I'd "mistrust" those "authority" figures too. No, they do not have to fear their military here in Canada and we don't live in a dictatorship, but it can be a very long time before persons new to Canada are "comfortable in actually believing that".

As for our aboriginal peoples, they too have experienced items in the past which created a "mistrust" of the government. Although land claims issues etc are still being disputed to this day, the government has issued an apology to our aboriginal peoples on behalf of all Canadians regarding items like Residential Schools. This apology was much required in order to begin the healing process. Many aboriginal elders today are those whom were removed from their families by the govnt. I'm quite sure that some of their "mistrust" factually based upon what actually did occur to them in their lifetimes has been passed down to the following generations.

It seems to me that Canada is now over this hurdle and is striving to go forward in a posotive manner. Regardless of whether or not there remain outstanding issues to deal with, and regardless of whatever side of the fence you may be on regarding those particular issues - the CF is attempting to attract "the average Canadian" to join our midst. We are not seeking to attract the far-right or the far-left "Canadians" on _any_ issue. 

That brings us to "average Canadians". "White versus Minority". I'd wager another pole dance on an idea that the overwhelming majority of immigrants in Canada reside in urban areas. Large urban metropolis' to be exact. That is not the case however with our aboriginal peoples. A great many of them live in isolated areas and regions within this huge country.

Areas where having access to cable television can not be taken for granted, nor can internet access. Nor, for that matter, are these aboriginal people availed of same availibility of many other things that "we" (and by using "we" - I'm now including us "white folk" AND Canadian immigrants) take for granted. Such as accessibility to daily newpapers on a regular basis. Such as access to programming on television where they can see what their nation's military is doing and what we "really are like". Heck, some of them have a hard enough time accessing clean drinking water.

I also suspect that CFRCs, or even recruiters at their schools during job fairs, aren't exactly "known" in these communities so that they are aware of what we can offer. We certainly just can't say "go to your nearest CFRC & find out what we're about" or "google CF Recruiting". I don't know too many of "us" who would be able to afford to just fork out the dough to travel up to 1500km to hit the nearest recruiting centre - let alone a young "average Canadian" living in an isolated community who probably "mistrusts" us in the first place.

Let's not kid ourselves, these opportunities (that we take for granted because they are SOOOOOO accesible and known to the rest of "us" have to be presented to those who would otherwise NOT be availed or even aware of the opportunity.

Bold Eagle goes along way towards that achieveing that goal. It ensures that this program is both "communicated to" and "accessible" by those who just don't have the same resources that you & I enjoy and seem to assume that they enjoy also.

We offer them the opportunity to learn about us, sometimes for the very first time; the opportunity to learn for themselves that we can be trusted; the opportunity to build their self-confidence all with the possible goal of attracting that "average Canadian" into our midst. Hopefully, passing it along to their friends.

IF these aboriginals who attend Bold eagle are successful, THEN they have opportunity to *apply* to enrol into the Canadian Forces if they so choose. That is ALL that they are guaranteed - the opportunity to apply. Upon submitting an application they have to complete and meet every single requirement that every other one of us "average Canadians" has to meet. IF they meet those requirements, they then get merit listed amongst all us other "average Canadians" - they compete amongst those other applicants exactly as everyone else does. They get merit listed wherever they deserve to be (after having "earned it") and are enrolled in order of merit listing exactly as every other Canadian applicant is (no matter to creed, race, sexuality etc).

Mostly for Eye in The Sky:

If they are hired, it is because their number came up and they WERE the best person for the job IAW the merit list. Someone behind them on the merit list has no reason to blame anyone hired ahead of him/her ... they earn their spot on that list just as everyone else does.  They don't skip over anyone because we DO NOT have quotas (exactly as many recruiters on this site have *prepeatedly stated*). No "better" people do not get hired because an aboriginal Canadian does.

Average Canadians come from all walks of life. Average Canadians are representative of our society. When there is a portion of those "average Canadians" who do not have ease of access or who possess a limited knowledge of the CF and who very well inherantly "mistrust" us, we HAVE to show them differently. We have to ensure that WE present them with an opportunity to learn differently, to see us for themselves, to avail them of the same accesibility that we others take for granted. That's what Bold eagle does.

A pro-Bold eagle, pro-Aboriginal stance does NOT equate into pro-quota, anti-white man, anti-fairness position. It simply ensures that a portion of our population is afforded the ability to makes themselves familiar with "us" and who we are and what we are about, to learn that "we" are not to be feared ... an as an added bonus ... if they actually DO like us - we may gain a potential applicant who may successfully enrol who then may go on to become a successful soldier/sailor/airman/airwoman. 

To my way of thinking: There ain't nothing wrong with that. Both sides win. Canada wins. Isn't that what it's all supposed to be about?

There is a bigger picture out there people, and there's a whole lot of "best" Canadians who don't have the access and info or opportunity that we take fro granted.


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## armyvern (12 Jan 2010)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Great.  Anything to back that up (other than your opinion)?  You've said it...substantiate it please.  I've been in effective/ineffective units/sub-units before...it was never based on our cultural diversity.  It was never even considered so I see your statement as very polished BUT also misleading and not the way it really is.
> 
> Huh?



EITS: recruiters have flat-out stated in this very thread that the CF does NOT hire based on quotas or minority status. We enrol based upon merit list. Each and every one of us.

Any insistance that the "best person" is somehow NOT being hired for the job is actually what is misleading.


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## Eye In The Sky (12 Jan 2010)

AV,

That has to be one of the best posts in any thread I've read on here in a long time.

And, to be clear (maybe what I am saying in this thread is coming across incorrectly), I don't have any concern other than the best person for the position gets it.  I say that as both a serving member and a tax payer.  I feel the same way about all people in government service, military, civilian employees of DND and contractors we pay to do our biding inclusive.

I've worked for, with, and had subordinate from always walks of live and backgrounds.  I always knew 2 things for sure:

1.  They were Canadians.
2.  They volunteered to serve Canada.


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## armyvern (12 Jan 2010)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> AV,
> 
> That has to be one of the best posts in any thread I've read on here in a long time.
> 
> ...



Seen. And thanks for the compliment.

Fuck was I ever pissed off the first time I attempted to post it and got the server error and lost everything ...

Nothing is a good the 2nd time.  >


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## armychick2009 (12 Jan 2010)

AV, 
Thanks for putting that. I also lost a post that was long and pretty much had all of that in there.

"Mistrust" stems from residential schools. It's not an "excuse", it's the truth. I won't sit here and defend it but I will offer to anyone who wants this, a trip to a reserve and other types of native communities, to take you on a tour to talk to elders, to the middle generation and the youth. I offer you first-hand experience to truly see, how this affects people. Elders are afraid of the government (ANY branch... health care, Indian Affairs, DND, etc.) taking their children again, as they did before with schools. The DND has had awesome foresight and have established solid relationships with the elders of the community, to ensure their "children" (which is ANY youth, say up to roughly age 25) in a community leave under their own free will and volition. For example, when we are done our course, we go home for 2 weeks. This shows the elders we have come back... this allows us to decide if we want to REALLY join... and only THEN do the recruiting staff finish processing the application. When the 'children' leave, the elders see it really was their choice and that no one was coerced to do this.

Please give your employer some credit for this awesome (and thoughtful) relationship they have built. This program is helping to ease the mistrust which has bred for many years. 

*Now to clarify a few things...*

PRETC is a three-week introductory course where we receive the $1200 upon completion for our training. No age restriction. (This is the one I took part in.)

Bold Eagle/Black Bear/Raven is a 7-week program which allows the youth (it's limited to ages 17-25ish) and they are paid approximately $3500 upon completion for their training. Their training during this time, is actually the same training someone in the reserves gets and upon completion, they have the option to join the Reserves OR they could also go Reg Force. There is no commitment, it's their choice to make at the end.


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## Otis (12 Jan 2010)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Great.  Anything to back that up (other than your opinion)?  You've said it...substantiate it please.  I've been in effective/ineffective units/sub-units before...it was never based on our cultural diversity.  It was never even considered so I see your statement as very polished BUT also misleading and not the way it really is.
> 
> Huh?



I can explain exactly how a diverse CF is better ... without personal opinion ... by using an example:

Imagine yourself in a scenario where you were protesting something you felt was unjust.
Imagine now that an armed force was deployed to 'control' your protest, and that armed force consisted of nothing but little green martians. The martians speak your language, but have never experienced any of the conditions you have found yourself in nor do they have any background with the current cause of your protest.

How would you react to them telling you to calm down and disperse? Granted, as you are a lawful, law-abiding citizen, you would do as you were asked, but you would not feel in any way that your protest was heard or understood.

Now imagine the same scenario, only deployed with the little green martians are people of your race or sex or background or religion, equally trained and qualified as the martians. If they were to approach you to address your concerns, the compliance and satisfaction you felt would be heightened and the situation diffused much more easily and with less chance of 'misunderstanding' ... is this not a better, more effective use of resources?

If the enforcement arm of the government reflects the population of the people being governed, it WILL be a more effective force, better able to handle situations and do what the government asks of it.


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## armyvern (12 Jan 2010)

Armychick (damn, that username is almost as beautiful as ArmyVern  ;D),

Thanks for the clarifications on both programs. My insight on the subject is incomparable to yours - you originate from the communties of which I spoke; I was simply offering my .02 cents worth - I'm glad that I got it _mostly_ right. 

Vern


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## George Wallace (12 Jan 2010)

Yeah!  I remember my Diversification Training.  All those "X's" and "O's" and how they were all different.  Funny thing was, the majority of the Sqn taking this training wondered WTF.......Why are we pointing out all our differences, when we should be pointing out all the things we were the same .......... We were all Green.  


And we have been down this road of Diversification before, as have we covered the various programs like Raven and Bold Eagle before.


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## armyvern (12 Jan 2010)

I think, with that last post, Kat has just solved the age-old never-ending hand-wringing question of "what is a Canadian?"

Answer: All Canadians can hum the old HNIC theme.


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## Otis (12 Jan 2010)

OK, I apologize for my attempt at Political Correctness ... I guess my example was too obtuse for the general populace.

To strengthen my "weak" argument ... replace "Little Green Martian" with a minority group of your preference ... Women, Black, Native, Asian ... all of which ARE Canadian and quite a few of which I am SURE have : 

"shopped at a Canadian Tire, got up a 04:00 to drive their kids to hockey practice, had a Tim's large D/D and a maple glazed while you wait, can't hum the old Hockey  Night in Canada theme"

I think my argument stands.


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## Jarnhamar (12 Jan 2010)

Otis said:
			
		

> Now imagine the same scenario, only deployed with the little green martians are people of your race or sex or background or religion, equally trained and qualified as the martians. If they were to approach you to address your concerns, the compliance and satisfaction you felt would be heightened and the situation diffused much more easily and with less chance of 'misunderstanding' ... is this not a better, more effective use of resources?



Out west with all the Olympic BS going on there seems to be a schism with native communities. One one hand you have natives who are working in the Olympics or don't have a problem with the Olympics. The others are protesting the olympics with slogans such as no olympics on stolen land etc..  The latter seem more than happy to call the former race traitors, white mans dogs and a bunch of other names.  They don't seem too open minded having their own people on the other side- point of fact it seems to piss them off even more.


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## armyvern (12 Jan 2010)

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> Out west with all the Olympic BS going on these seems to be a schism with native communities. One one hand you have natives who are working in the Olympics or don't have a problem with the Olympics. The others are protesting the olympics with slogans such as no olympics on stolen land etc..  The latter seem more than happy to call the former race traitors, white mans dogs and a bunch of other names.  They don't seem too open minded having their own people on the other side- point of fact it seems to piss them off even more.



And, exactly as I pointed out earlier ---

The CF is not interested in attracting either the hard-left or hard-right Canadians on any issue regardless of what side of the fence they sit on for matters such as these.

We are interested in attracting the "average Canadian" regardless of what side of the issue they sit on regarding matters such as these.

News flash: MOST aboriginals are "average Canadians". WE need MORE of them to convince those that are the hard-left and hard-right (like your pers noted above) that WE are nothing to fear and that their mistrust is misplaced, so that THEY see it for themselves. 

Other than that, citing examples of hard-left or hard-right Canadians has absolutely diddly-squat to do with this thread. They usually tend to be the extreme minority of a minority and are certainly not representative of the "average".

WE should know better than to do that and to try to make out those hard left or hard right people as being "representative" of an "average group" ... the media does it to us "average CF members" each and every time some CF member really fucks up and we absolutely HATE IT when the media tars us all with that big broad brush. Shouldn't we be extending the exact same courtesy we expect in that regard to all those "average Canadian" aboriginals out there? Isn't doing that fair?


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## Otis (13 Jan 2010)

For the record ... I'm out of this coversation before I say something I'm going to regret ... calling me a racist is WAY off-line.


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## armyvern (13 Jan 2010)

Otis said:
			
		

> For the record ... I'm out of this coversation before I say something I'm going to regret ... calling me a racist is WAY off-line.



It was 100% uncalled for and your example was perfectly fine, some are just beginning to pick fly shit out of the pepper. It was quite simple to understand the gist of your example, some choose to see it differently than what it is. As for me, I'm done with this thread too ... some people are having trouble seeing their noses this evening to spite their faces. That's a pretty sad commentary.


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## armyvern (13 Jan 2010)

Really, his post of which the commentary occured was colour _blind_. Funny that.


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## Kat Stevens (13 Jan 2010)

NEVER MIND, ALL FIXED, CARRY ON.  I have removed all of my posts on this thread, as I'm quite obviously too thick and too much of a fascist to contribute anything relevant.  Apologies to all those on a more evolved plane of existence.


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## Forgotten_Hero (13 Jan 2010)

> Areas where having access to cable television can not be taken for granted, nor can internet access. Nor, for that matter, are these aboriginal people availed of same availibility of many other things that "we" (and by using "we" - I'm now including us "white folk" AND Canadian immigrants) take for granted. Such as accessibility to daily newpapers on a regular basis. Such as access to programming on television where they can see what their nation's military is doing and what we "really are like". Heck, some of them have a hard enough time accessing clean drinking water.
> 
> I also suspect that CFRCs, or even recruiters at their schools during job fairs, aren't exactly "known" in these communities so that they are aware of what we can offer. We certainly just can't say "go to your nearest CFRC & find out what we're about" or "google CF Recruiting". I don't know too many of "us" who would be able to afford to just fork out the dough to travel up to 1500km to hit the nearest recruiting centre - let alone a young "average Canadian" living in an isolated community who probably "mistrusts" us in the first place.



If you want to make us avaiable to them, then go recruit at their towns. I mean, the news of this "Bold Eagle" program is spread somehow, no? And present it the same way and give them the _same_ opportunities you give to everyone else.



> Let's not kid ourselves, these opportunities (that we take for granted because they are SOOOOOO accesible and known to the rest of "us" have to be presented to those who would otherwise NOT be availed or even aware of the opportunity.



Definitly. So go recruit up there. Give presentations. But dont, I'd say, tell them "well, we'll give you an opportunity to take it for a trial run, an opportunity we dont give other people."



> IF these aboriginals who attend Bold eagle are successful, THEN they have opportunity to apply to enrol into the Canadian Forces if they so choose. That is ALL that they are guaranteed - the opportunity to apply.



I dont deny that it sounds like a good recruitment tool... But ethically I can only support it until the part where they say "you have to be an aboriginal"

And what of all those aboriginals in the major metropolitan centers that get to do this "trial run"?



> Isn't that what it's all supposed to be about?



To my way of thinking: There ain't nothing wrong with that. Both sides win. Canada wins. In this case, I can not say the ends justify the means. Not from my stand point.



> There is a bigger picture out there people, and there's a whole lot of "best" Canadians who don't have the access and info or opportunity that we take fro granted.



Sounds to me like the correct thing to do is to give them access to this info and to this opportunity rather than giving them a special opportunity based on the colour of their skin. Go up there and recruit. Go up there and present the army to them. Go facilitate their ability to enroll... but *dont* give them a "trial run" of the army unless you're going to offer it to everyone.


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## Brasidas (13 Jan 2010)

armychick2009 said:
			
		

> ...The DND has had awesome foresight and have established solid relationships with the elders of the community, to ensure their "children" (which is ANY youth, say up to roughly age 25) in a community leave under their own free will and volition...



I'm curious about this. What are these "solid relationships with the elders" that you're talking about? I'd think of programs like Bold Eagle being a sort of a scatter gun project funded in lieu of opening up CFRC's in metropoli like Fort Vermilion or Churchill.



> Please give your employer some credit for this awesome (and thoughtful) relationship they have built. This program is helping to ease the mistrust which has bred for many years.



I'm not panning it, but some parts of it rub me the wrong way. Bold Eagle's been around at least since I was on course in Wainwright in 99. I recall reservist QL2 being a six week course at the time and that they stretched it out with some prep that included some  cultural stuff. As I understand it, and Army Chick has confirmed, it was (is) Status-only.

Fine, it's discriminatory against non-status aboriginals. And there are cases like the individual who was freaked out by the trees. Not every native-cultured individual is a Status Indian. And this new program is intended to offer something for those that aren't Status. There's still that 1/16 rich kid from downtown Toronto.

The screening tool bit seems iffy to me. Ok, no-trees girl could have been at St Jean when she discovered her condition, but... Folks VR anyway. I'd rather see the money put into retention programs, identifying and addressing why experienced people are leaving than spending money on targetting demographics for recruitment.

You say that you got something out of it, great. You're admitting its imperfect, and I have a hard time disagreeing with you being less deserving of getting in on a Bold Eagle type opportunity. I'm not trying to trash talk your program, but I've got issues with it.

What I've got ifurther issues with is this "diversity for diversity's sake" stuff. 

These programs are not, thank god, a slippery slope towards units being obliged to have a wheelchair-ridden, french-speaking, female african canadian quota. That's a dead letter, and Army Vern's absolutely right in that these programs aren't eliminating merit for selection for positions. 

For the rather blatant Oka scenario that the now-departed Otis brought up, yes, I can imagine that aboriginals may have trust issues in a domestic ops situation. If a situation gets down to troops facing off with Natives, I don't see three more aboriginal corporals in an infantry company making a spit of difference. Those troops wouldn't be there for relaxed, intimate negotiations.

Outside of that particular scenario, I don't see any minority communities that are going to be in a comparable situation. Somali immigrants? Might affect recruiting of second generation in their families. But how much of an impact are a couple of dozen pers going to make after being diffused through the entire CF? They're in the big cities, and how much social exposure is there of immigrant populations to troops?

If I saw or heard unacceptable behaviour regarding minorities, I'd address it with the people involved. If a coworker or subordinate, particularly a private untrained, was having a rough time and it involved some sort of cultural issue, I'd be willing to listen and be supportive. If there were some sort of institutional issue that was causing members of a group to relase, I'd expect the CF to take a look at it. That's as far as I believe "diversity" needs to go.


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## Forgotten_Hero (13 Jan 2010)

> "Mistrust" stems from residential schools. It's not an "excuse", it's the truth. I won't sit here and defend it but I will offer to anyone who wants this, a trip to a reserve and other types of native communities, to take you on a tour to talk to elders, to the middle generation and the youth. I offer you first-hand experience to truly see, how this affects people. Elders are afraid of the government (ANY branch... health care, Indian Affairs, DND, etc.) taking their children again, as they did before with schools. The DND has had awesome foresight and have established solid relationships with the elders of the community, to ensure their "children" (which is ANY youth, say up to roughly age 25) in a community leave under their own free will and volition. For example, when we are done our course, we go home for 2 weeks. This shows the elders we have come back... this allows us to decide if we want to REALLY join... and only THEN do the recruiting staff finish processing the application. When the 'children' leave, the elders see it really was their choice and that no one was coerced to do this.
> 
> Please give your employer some credit for this awesome (and thoughtful) relationship they have built. This program is helping to ease the mistrust which has bred for many years.



Sounds like it works, but I cant support it ethically. What about all those parents in the large metropolitan areas that dont trust the government? Hell, my parents STILL think I was "brainwashed" into joining.  

In my opinion, the ends do not justify the means in this case. 



> Bold Eagle/Black Bear/Raven is a 7-week program which allows the youth (it's limited to ages 17-25ish) and they are paid approximately $3500 upon completion for their training. Their training during this time, is actually the same training someone in the reserves gets and upon completion, they have the option to join the Reserves OR they could also go Reg Force. There is no commitment, it's their choice to make at the end.



Could you tell me this, since I'm not sure. If one were to complete this training, does he have to redo training if he decides to stay? What if he wishes to go regs?


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## Forgotten_Hero (13 Jan 2010)

> For the rather blatant Oka scenario that the now-departed Otis brought up, yes, I can imagine that aboriginals may have trust issues in a domestic ops situation. If a situation gets down to troops facing off with Natives, I don't see three more aboriginal corporals in an infantry company making a spit of difference. Those troops wouldn't be there for relaxed, intimate negotiations.



Thats made me think... In that kind of a situation I think that the Natives would have seen all of us in one colour---green, while certain people in the green seem to see us as "We're all green, but we're also other colours too."


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## vonGarvin (13 Jan 2010)

Nero said:
			
		

> Thats made me think... In that kind of a situation I think that the Natives would have seen all of us in one colour---green, while certain people in the green seem to see us as "We're all green, but we're also other colours too."


Having been at Oka, and having had several natives in my company, a few in my platoon and one in my section, I can jump in here.
The Mohawks on the line called them "MacIntosh" (red on the outside, white on the inside).  Other names were used as well.  Being soldiers, during the work up training, we poked fun at my friend in my section.  "Chief" (as we called him) came into our room one day and started moving furniture.  We asked him WTF he was doing.  He said in a very heavy and stereotypical native accent that he was protecting his land, etc.  So we jumped him as soldiers do, wrestling around.  It was all good fun.
In the end, we ourselves knew exactly what buttons to push to get our fellow soldiers going.  That's just what we did.  In the end, however, we were all friends, and it mattered not what race, etc, they were.


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## LineJumper (13 Jan 2010)

> Could you tell me this, since I'm not sure. If one were to complete this training, does he have to redo training if he decides to stay? What if he wishes to go regs?



It is the same qualification as a reserve BMQ. Same rules apply in the event of a reservist CT to reg. The primary drawback I've seen with the program, is since the individual does not "sign up" with his/her local unit, they do not have a UIC. Now, the fun part is when they've completed training, they have the opportunity to join a reserve unit in (if) their locale. The gaining unit now needs documentation re: BMQ, which is held by the hosting course facilities. I'm no clerk, so I don't know how these files are handled. The qualified individual is pretty much on the cooler until said paperwork reaches their unit of choice (pending eligibility for trade). Fortunately (or not) due to the fiscal situation, they may not be out of a future training calendar, however, nominations will likely not be entertained due to no/late confirmation of training.

I've not participated in this program, only instructed it. I've also participated in recruiting events on reserves and remote locations. The one thing I always found shocking was how little was known of the CF and what it had to offer. I suppose I was lucky that I had army cadets to grow up with which facilitated my recruitment. It isn't just the military targeting the aboriginal workforce. I was blown away by all the industries involved in looking for future talent from these areas, as I'm sure they do anywhere else but I digress.

Oh yes, the now trained individual has 1 year from course completion to join without having to re do a BMQ.


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## armychick2009 (13 Jan 2010)

Brasidas said:
			
		

> I'm not panning it, but some parts of it rub me the wrong way. Bold Eagle's been around at least since I was on course in Wainwright in 99. I recall reservist QL2 being a six week course at the time and that they stretched it out with some prep that included some  cultural stuff. As I understand it, and Army Chick has confirmed, it was (is) Status-only.



No, none of these programs offered by the Canadian Military are "status-only".  It's anyone who self-identifies as aboriginal. Non-status can participate in these programs. 

The status-only program is what I said would happen, if the Department of Indian Affairs administered a program like this. 




			
				Nero said:
			
		

> Could you tell me this, since I'm not sure. If one were to complete this training, does he have to redo training if he decides to stay? What if he wishes to go regs?




Nero, this is how the flow of these programs can work.

PRETC (which is the course I took) is a three-week introduction. At the end of this course, I can do the following:

A) Go home and take my two weeks and sleep in and never think about military life again.
B) Go home and take my two weeks and think about going to RMC.
C) Go home and take my two weeks and think about going reserves. Options are Bold Eagle, Raven, Black Bear and/or ANY reserve training going on.
D) Go home and take my two weeks and think about going reg force. Option is St. Jean.


You do NOT need to take the PRETC to get into the Bold Eagle/Raven/BlackBear. I call PRETC a "sampler", a taste of what the army has to offer.

Bold Eagle/Raven/Black Bear is as LineJumper said, same qualification as a reserve BMQ. Same training with some cultural stuff added. SAME training, just things added. So... they aren't losing out on something in exchange for the culture stuff, it's in addition to...

At the end of the Bold Eagle/Raven/Black Bear programs, they have these options. 

A) Go home and sleep in and never think about military life again.
B) Go home and work in the local reserve unit and go for their trade training the way other reservists would. 
C) Go reg force, go to St. Jean and take the same training ANY reservist would take if they had decided to go from reserve to reg. 

There's no line-skipping here.


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## The Bread Guy (19 Jan 2010)

200% Increase In Bedouin Enlistment
IDF feature story, 19 Jan 10


> The IDF and Bedouin leaders are constantly working towards better integration of Bedouins into Israeli society
> 
> There has been a 200% increase in the number of Bedouins enlisting in the IDF within the last two years – so said the Chief of the General Staff, Lt. Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi, on Monday (Jan. 18) at his meeting with the chairman of the Mayors of Bedouin Councils in the North, Mr. Hassan El Haib.
> 
> ...


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## armychick2009 (19 Jan 2010)

Thanks for posting that link! 

I had a chance to meet with some Bedouins at the United Nations permanent forum on Indigenous issues in NYC this past May. One of my favourite photos I took was of the three bedouins all reading magazines in their "regalia" with three timex's showing, on the floors of the United Nations. Caught between two worlds, not an easy life!

I'm hoping I get to attend this year (though, having to get passport this year kinda bugs me... too bad they couldn't air-drop me onto the international territory (where the UN sits) to avoid having to get passport to walk on my own lands! *laughs*  (Another "perk" of being non-status is you do not get the same rights of travel as full-status or... even the rights to serve in the american army or work on US soil, with regards to Jays Treaty). 

That's another topic for another thread though... and probably on another message board altogether!!


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## armyvern (19 Jan 2010)

armychick2009 said:
			
		

> Thanks for posting that link!
> 
> I had a chance to meet with some Bedouins at the United Nations permanent forum on Indigenous issues in NYC this past May. One of my favourite photos I took was of the three bedouins all reading magazines in their "regalia" with three timex's showing, on the floors of the United Nations. Caught between two worlds, not an easy life!
> 
> ...



You're not lying about the caught between two worlds.

Israel is a country with a landmass comparable to that of Canada's province of New Brunswick. Even the "rural" areas are littered with satellite dishes and everyone (even the wee children) have cell-phones permanently attached to their hips/ears, not to mention IDF posts.

To "see" and be exposed to their military (the IDF) is a daily ritual ... the IDF are all over the place. What they do and what they are about is certainly not a secret even to the beaudoin population although their lifestyles may be vastely different. 

I'm not sure that their program is comparable to ours ... apples/oranges. Huge/small. Well-known/rarely seen/possibly never-seen. They certainly _waaaaayyyy_ have the upper hand in the "see and be seen department" by the populace you wish to attract, the "communications" department, and the "accesabiity" departments --- exactly those "departments" where the nature of Canada's vaste geography has dealt us the huge blow.


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## The Bread Guy (19 Jan 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I'm not sure that their program is comparable to ours ... apples/oranges. Huge/small. Well-known/rarely seen/possibly never-seen. They certainly _waaaaayyyy_ have the upper hand in the "see and be seen department" by the populace you wish to attract, the "communications" department, and the "accesabiity" departments --- exactly those "departments" where the nature of Canada's vaste geography has dealt us the huge blow.



To be fair, I realize it's never going to be an exact match (hence the "contrast" option), but I just wanted to stoke the discussion a bit re:  how other countries seem to be reaching out to minorities as a way to get them to consider the national military enough of THEIR military to get more of them to join.  In addition to the "people per square kilometre" and "public visibility" factors Vern highlights, I don't see any indication of any financial incentive for the Bedouins.  That's probably because the other two biggies negate the need for $?

Another difference is this bit:


> The IDF and Bedouin leaders are constantly working towards *better integration of Bedouins into Israeli society*.


Methinks our program is more a way to say "look, you should consider a military career" to groups who may not traditionally see the CF as a place to work and serve.


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## armychick2009 (19 Jan 2010)

I particularly liked the wording of "integrating" as opposed to "assimilating"...


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## Brasidas (19 Jan 2010)

armychick2009 said:
			
		

> I particularly liked the wording of "integrating" as opposed to "assimilating"...



With rhetoric like Avigdor Lieberman's about expelling the resident Arab population from the country altogether, I find the IDF welcoming Bedouin recruits at all reassuring.


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## armychick2009 (21 Jan 2010)

Brasidas, 
I meant it would have been/would be nice to see that kind of wording from the canadian gov't when dealing with first nations... I didn't mean explicitly towards the Bedouins. There's amazing amounts of Genocide you can see/talk about in one week at the Indigenous Forum at the UN. Really scary stuff when you see what governments get away with... and "companies".  I had a chance to speak within' a youth forum and the stuff coming out of the youth (18-29) about what they go through in their own nations, it's un-real.


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## poutinelover (2 Jan 2013)

After reading the first 7 pages, I noticed a common idea: people applying for the Canadian Forces should get in based on merit. 

Merit you say?!  Ha!! 

I know many men who have gotten in based on this so called merit. They've wasted a lot more than 1,200 dollars of the government's money-being trained and being in the military for 3+ years only to fail off qualification courses. They'd blame everyone but themselves for their lack of self discipline, effort and competence. 

IMO, the military lets in just about anyone! It isn't that difficult to complete the process 
. I've met several men and women who have made me ask "how did they manage to pass the aptitude test?"

Those that are currently serving the CF are not special either. CF members are not superior beings and should act as if it was a great ordeal to join. In fact, most of the men I've met in the CF are men who couldn't find a place in civilian society. Many members Lack education, lack personal direction and lack a stable head on their shoulders. 

So who cares if some more money is spent on recruiting more people. A lot more Is wasted on these people who enlist only to fail or switch trades. Or how about the stupid ones who are forced to release due to criminal acts or the ones who show up at work drunk. A lot of people only join to learn skills, find out they hate the whole system and plan on leaving. i know many men who are tired of the military and military folk. they want out!  so why are you so against a group of people trying to discover if the CF is in fact the place for them or not? Better that they try before wasting anyones time or money. ?


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## 0010bravo (2 Jan 2013)

That to me is racist. Because I'm white I get no offer of a bonus etc... I've worked hard as a youth and accomplished a lot... I know in the native culture they face certain challenges, but this seems a little ridiculous. It's like a soldier fighting next to a private contractor. One makes more than the other for the same (ish) job...

No offence, but I do not agree with this!


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## Stoker (2 Jan 2013)

poutinelover said:
			
		

> After reading the first 7 pages, I noticed a common idea: people applying for the Canadian Forces should get in based on merit.
> 
> Merit you say?!  Ha!!
> 
> ...



I personally say a lot of what you say is utter BS. Like any organization we have problems with personnel, but its definitely not as wide spread as you claim. Do you currently serve, its obvious you have an axe to grind.


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## SeaKingTacco (2 Jan 2013)

poutinelover said:
			
		

> After reading the first 7 pages, I noticed a common idea: people applying for the Canadian Forces should get in based on merit.
> 
> Merit you say?!  Ha!!
> 
> ...



I'm sorry- how long, exactly, have you served in the CF to be qualified to make such a sweeping judgement?


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## Journeyman (2 Jan 2013)

I suspect that the issue is tied to her emphasis on "men," as opposed to "troops" or "personnel."


And you _know_ that when you asked about time in, she looked at her watch.   op:


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## Eye In The Sky (2 Jan 2013)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> I'm sorry- how long, exactly, have you served in the CF to be qualified to make such a sweeping judgement?



Or better yet, have you ever served at all Clarice??   rly:



			
				poutinelover said:
			
		

> Hi there! My name is Clarice.
> 
> I am a digital photography and imaging student. For one of my assignments, I am required to interview a photographer. I did begin the recruiting process for the air force, however, I decided to go to school first.



I wouldn't be surprised if this was a drive-by posting...wouldn't surprise me at all if Clarice is a Idle No More *sympathezier*.   :Tin-Foil-Hat:


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## PuckChaser (2 Jan 2013)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> I'm sorry- how long, exactly, have you served in the CF to be qualified to make such a sweeping judgement?



Judging by post history, less than 30 months.


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## Eye In The Sky (2 Jan 2013)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Judging by post history, less than 30 months.



Read Post #6...smells to me like someone trying to 'talk the talk' really hard, having heard a story from someone else but not knowing the CF lingo.  Example, "red flagged trade".  I've never heard anyone refer to it as that who is in the CF...but we all know what it means if someone says trade is "red".

Thats my guess anyways.  I'd bet she's never been in the CF.  But tries hard to appear so.


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## PuckChaser (2 Jan 2013)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Thats my guess anyways.  I'd bet she's never been in the CF.  But tries hard to appear so.



Makes sense. Way outta her lane in any case.


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## Eye In The Sky (2 Jan 2013)

Yup, "_crossed the median, went into the oncoming traffic lanes, skidded and ended up in the pecker-brush wayyyyy over there_" kind of out of her lane.   >


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## Jarnhamar (2 Jan 2013)

Sounds like she has poutine for brains but maybe she's upset the kitchens stop serving poutine with every meal. 

That made me mad. Just like it made me mad when they stopped selling alcohol at the eating mess in Petawawa.   Loved my wildberry coolers.... :slapfight:


I've changed my outlook on this program and think it's a good idea to offer aboriginals a signing bonus.


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## Fishbone Jones (3 Jan 2013)

poutinelover said:
			
		

> After reading the first 7 pages, I noticed a common idea: people applying for the Canadian Forces should get in based on merit.
> 
> Merit you say?!  Ha!!
> 
> ...



You seem to know a great many men.

Do they laugh at your small penis?


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## Jarnhamar (3 Jan 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> You seem to know a great many men.



That seemed to be the reoccurring theme of the post.


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## George Wallace (3 Jan 2013)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I wouldn't be surprised if this was a drive-by posting...wouldn't surprise me at all if Clarice is a Idle No More *sympathezier*.   :Tin-Foil-Hat:



If she is; then it is about time she got off her idle butt.


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## CombatDoc (3 Jan 2013)

Leapin' Lazarus, Batman, we've resurrected a 2 year old post!

My New Years resolution for 2013 is simple - don't feed the trolls (especially one as obvious and poorly informed as this one).


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## Good2Golf (3 Jan 2013)

poutinelover said:
			
		

> ...In fact, most of the men I've met in the CF are men who couldn't find a place in civilian society. Many members Lack education, lack personal direction and lack a stable head on their shoulders...



...as opposed to the women you've met/worked for in the CF in your ~4-ish year career?



			
				poutinelover said:
			
		

> This supervisor is known by myself and others to openly admit hating her job and most disturbingly, admitting to sabotaging trainees chances of advancing from trainee to trained. This Mcpl intentionally relocates those she randomly dislikes to units they do not need to be written off in. She has them at arms length at all times when on they're put into different rotations. It is my belief that she does this just to be able to control and harass the people in training.
> 
> This Mcpl has done everything in her power to verbally abuse and belittle hard working Canadian Forces members. These members are kind, friendly, and have nothing but 100% positive reports and feedback from past instructors. So what is this woman's problem with these workers? She hates her job so much that she wants to make these passionate-about-their-jobs peoples' lives miserable. What makes me say she hates her job? 1. She's admitted it. 2. She had a meeting to switch trades just yesterday.
> 
> ...



Perhaps you need to stop with the unjustified generalizations.  It seems the only specific case you have ever mentioned doesn't cast female CF members in a good light, not the men.

Food for thought.


Regards
G2G


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## Remius (3 Jan 2013)

poutinelover said:
			
		

> In fact, most of the men I've met in the CF are men who couldn't find a place in civilian society. Many members Lack education, lack personal direction and lack a stable head on their shoulders.



And many civilians that I've met who have found a place in society, have more education than most, with personal direction with more or less stable heads on their shoulders are the last people I would want next to me in a gunfight.  I'll take the men (and women) of the CF any day over any of those successful types.


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