# What does 'serving your country' really mean?



## mellian (11 Aug 2009)

Since I join milnet and reading various threads along participating in some, the expression 'serving your country' and variations of has come up a lot. It is a concept that has been associated with the military and similar forms of civil service since...well at least the formation of countries and nations, and later on with the rise of nationalism. Like any social concepts, it has changed and evolved throughout history, as in serving one's country can mean and even feel differently than during another era, or circumstances.

Being tied usually to nationalism, it is something one can do to be proud of, an excuse to participate in another grand human need of 'us versus them'. If it not country or the nation,  it is province versus province, left versus right, city versus city, town versus town, team versus team, school versus school, neighourhood versus neighbourhood, gang versus gang, or house versus house...it comes down to the same thing. If the country level version of it does not work, we find a lesser version of the game. If a bigger version comes, such as 'West versus East' or 'Democracy versus Communism', we form larger 'us' to serve in and proceed from there. Eventually, can even become planet versus planet, humanity versus whoever else, etc.  So why help perpatuate it?   

Wherever we are born, and wherever to we end up, we become associated in this 'us versus them' manner, and many of us actively and consentually participate in it, even it may seem quite silly to do so. For those of us that serve our country, it is mainly because we are born in it, or chose to live here. Why are we proud of Canada and being Canadian? Because it is positively different, and somehow 'better'. 

I am guilty of this as well, even while being fully aware of how silly it is. No matter the good or bad, Canada is my country, it is where I was born, live, and somehow involved in. I have similar sense pride in regards to Ottawa, my home city, because well, it is my home city, while gradually building up some kind of pride for Montreal where I live presently the longer I am here and involved the various communities and groups I am part of. 

Not everyone would be sure, but everyone has this 'group' they are part and proud of, and would possibly be happy to somehow serve under. The sense of pride from serving may happen until after the fact, once your involved and participated in it. The opposite may happen, and move on to another 'us' intentionally or not. In the end, just seems natural to fight for the 'us', even if the 'us' shrinks down to only comprising the 'I'.

What does 'serving my country' mean to me? I do not know, and not even sure if I have yet or not as there is so many criterias for what that is. It is not a reason for why I am applying for the Canadian Forces, as it just seems too cliche. Would I serve my country? Yes, even if being uncertain to its meaning or whether I have already or not, because again, it IS my country, the place I am born and live in, even if it may seem like I am against it with some of my past activism. 

So yes, wanted to write all that down as it has in my mind for a bit, especially this past weekend my roller derby team whom I serve gladdly under, love, and very proud of, won the championships this past Saturday night, and we worked hard for it. In turn, I am also proud of my league and everyone else in it. In terms of a 'group' I would fight for and work with, would certainly be my team and league. Hoping a similar sense of pride and feelings can be achieved with the CF. 

Also wanted to spur another constructive discussion.


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## rdubbed (11 Aug 2009)

To me, serving my country really means that I want to be a part of something bigger than myself. I want to heed the call and accept the challenge that many people dismiss too easily. 

I am proud of the soldiers that have served before me to defend our way of life. I am only in the recruiting process, but look forward to doing my part. I am only one cog in the wheel of progress.

Every country around the world is threatened in some way or another, and therefore needs to be defended by it's citizens.


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## TangoTwoBravo (11 Aug 2009)

It is a complex question, but for me it means putting Canada before myself. Service before self is, perhaps, the most important element of military life. The concept of unlimited liability is critical. By this I mean that a soldier/sailor/airman can be ordered into situations that could cost them their life. This makes military service fairly unique.

While a unit, squadron or ship should certainly develop the kind of teamwork and sense of belonging that is felt in a sports team (especially at lower levels like the section, vehicle etc), at the end of the day we must remember that serve Canada. The military is subservient to legal civilian authority and exists to serve and defend the interests of Canada. Individuals in the military must be able to execute legal orders regardless of their personal feelings or interests.

At the risk of sounding preachy I don't think that there is anything silly about patriotism. I am proud of Canada and I am willing to risk all to defend it.


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## Larkvall (11 Aug 2009)

mellian,

Personally I am not going to worry about it right now.

I am going to follow the advice of forum and I am getting into shape and if I am selected I am going to follow instructions and ask questions if I don't understand something.

Once I finish my trade courses and if I actually 'do something' then I can sit down one day and figure out what it means.


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## a_majoor (11 Aug 2009)

Actually, you are already "doing something", that happened when you made the decision to join (and will be formalized when you swear the Oath to Her Majesty).

The key elements are deciding that service is a higher calling than "self", and selecting service to the ideals of nationhood (however defined, especially in a nation lacking in clear identity like Canada).

As a proponent of the idea of _Civic Nationalism_, I will offer this passage from "The Killer Angels", by Micheal Sharra. Although it is spoken by Colonel Chamberlain on the morning of the Battle of Gettysburg, the sentiments are opposed to destructive "blood and soil" nationalism, and thus the principles are valid for us as well:



> Many of us volunteered to fight for the Union. Some came mainly because we were bored at home and this looked like it might be fun. Some came because we were ashamed not to. Many came because it was the right thing to do.
> 
> This is a different kind of army. If you look at history you'll see men fight for pay, or women, or some other kind of loot. They fight for land, or because a king makes them, or just because they like killing. But we're here for something new. This hasn't happened much in the history of the world. We are an army out to set other men free. America should be free ground, from here to the Pacific Ocean. No man has to bow, no man born to royalty. Here we judge you by what you do, not by who your father was. Here you can be something. Here you can build a home. But it's not the land. There's always more land. It's the idea that we all have value, you and me. What we're fighting for, in the end, is each other.


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## mellian (12 Aug 2009)

Tango2Bravo said:
			
		

> At the risk of sounding preachy I don't think that there is anything silly about patriotism. I am proud of Canada and I am willing to risk all to defend it.



Could be the individualist and activist side of me, 'patriotism' just seems silly in a sheepish manner. Keep thinking of different examples, like blind faith to particular belief, authourity, or others in general throughout history such as world war one. Millions died in a war at the behest of their countries lead by some very questionable people. 







			
				Thucydides said:
			
		

> As a proponent of the idea of _Civic Nationalism_, I will offer this passage from "The Killer Angels", by Micheal Sharra. Although it is spoken by Colonel Chamberlain on the morning of the Battle of Gettysburg, the sentiments are opposed to destructive "blood and soil" nationalism, and thus the principles are valid for us as well:



Definetely a sentiment I agree with, and 'It's the idea that we all have value, you and me' is something I definetaly identify with.


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## EPF (12 Aug 2009)

Mellian,

Being Canadian, you grew up in a country where you had rights as a child, and now you live with the same rights as men (even to consider Armour as a career!). You have access to education, health care, decent wages, and even activism, organic food and fair trade products if you want to be socially responsible and all. If we look at the rest of the world, we're pretty lucky... and I believe that it is a way of life that deserve fighting for. 

Plus, Canada is multicultural in terms of language, ethnicities and religions, and promotes equality regardless of background, race, gender, sexual orientation, etc etc. So serving Canada is not only serving one type of person, but a diverse community of citizens that come from around the world.

I was an executive member of Engineers Without Borders at university, and L.Gen Dallaire was the key speaker of a national conference I went to. His patriotism was inspiring, because it wasn't a "we vs them" thing like you mentioned, but because he has a vision for Canada as a middle power assuming a leadership role in politics and peacemaking/keeping.

This is all quite idealistic and airy, but not necessarily what will keep you going under fire though! In the field, you fight for your team, for your men, and for those civilians who didn't have the luck of growing up in a country where we're so privileged.

You seem to me like a girl who likes to stir up things! Maybe you should go Armour... there isn't a worst kind of trouble than combat.   >

Cheers.


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## mariomike (12 Aug 2009)

I'm proud to have served my country, and my city.  This was the best advice I received:  
"When you work for a man, work for him. Give him your dedication, honesty, sincerity and 100% of your skills. If you must damn him, do so from without; quit and then damn him to high heaven if that is your wish. But while you are in his employ, do nothing or say nothing negative about him, or to him."
James Ellis Dolan

1) My father gave me that same advice, although not exactly in those same words.
2) Regarding serving my country, as always, it goes without saying that, compared to others, my  contribution was relatively modest.


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## observor 69 (12 Aug 2009)

From MM: "Give him your dedication, honesty, sincerity and 100% of your skills."

Hmmmm, there are companies that have management willing to reciprocate?


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## mariomike (12 Aug 2009)

Baden  Guy said:
			
		

> From MM: "Give him your dedication, honesty, sincerity and 100% of your skills."
> Hmmmm, there are companies that have management willing to reciprocate?



hehe I was happy to be a blue collar guy. I never envied my bosses. They had a softer life, and made more money, but they had no job security.  I saw too many marched out the door over the years. I saw them fire TEN - 10 - in one single day. It made me thankful to have a steady job.


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## Jungle (12 Aug 2009)

mellian said:
			
		

> Could be the individualist and activist side of me, 'patriotism' just seems silly in a sheepish manner


Your values are in contradiction to the CF's; I question your motivations to join.



			
				mellian said:
			
		

> Keep thinking of different examples, like blind faith to particular belief, authourity, or others in general


I seem to remember that you want to join as an Officer ? There will be times (should you make it) when you will EXPECT your subordinates to follow your orders blindly; I hope when that happens you will remember what you wrote here.



			
				mellian said:
			
		

> Millions died in a war at the behest of their countries lead by some very questionable people.


Have you thought about the fact that you may end up a "very questionable person " yourself ? If I served beside you, I would very seriously question your loyalty and integrity.

As Ulysses Grant wrote:


> "Experience proves that the man who obstructs a war in which his nation is engaged, no matter whether right or wrong, occupies no enviable place in life or history. Better for him, individually, to advocate "war, pestilence, and famine," than to act as an obstructionist to a war already begun... The most favorable posthumous history the stay-at-home traitor can hope for is... oblivion."


There come times when you have to choose a side; sometimes it turns out that you have to choose the lesser of two evils... so be it. I believe that our way of life deserves to be protected, even if it means people like you are entitled to criticize what I do, and how I do it.

I respect that you want to fight for what you believe in, but make sure you do it from the right "moral ground"; in your case, I doubt the Military is the right place... as Guy Bieler http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustave_Bi%C3%A9ler wrote:


> Either you serve or you don't; if you do serve, give it all you've got


I am not convinced you would be able to do that in the CF.


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## helpup (12 Aug 2009)

Oh I dont know I think she expressed herself pretty clearly and threw out the fact that she does have beliefs that allow her to feel nationalism and its end results can feel silly.  However she also stated that she has noticed herself going through those same thoughts.  

End result I see someone who has a broad mind and is aware of the responsibilities that joining the CF entails. Personally I think she would make a fine addition.  I have seen all types and sorts join, some make a career out of it many just for a few short years.  I have watched people grow, remain stagnant, or at least do the minimal to get paid.  And with them all the CF continues to function.  


For myself.  I am old enough to have sworn a oath to the queen and even though I was a child I still hold myself to be a monarchist through that more then anything else.  It was a oath I gave freely and still hold it to my heart.  Joining the CF was initially a job that I enjoyed doing as it kept me outdoors.  It fullfilled my need to challenge myself, think outside of the box, serve my country, in a manner that gave me a good paying job with job security, possibility for advancement and outright enjoyment.  My biggest definging moments are two-fold.  

Being 1st Generation Canadian I have heard stories about my Dutch side of the family living through the war, and the occupation.  They raised 7 kids in a time of depredation and challenge.  They helped where they could for the resistance and generally tried to survive carrying a unrealistic guilt that thier country thought it's nuetrality would protect it before the war.  My other side of the family is British and Granddad spent most of WW2 as a PoW when he got caught in Africa.  Tales from both sides showed me that the ability to sit back and not partake is not always a option.  So it was one I chose not to take.

The other major moment was during the Cold War when I was still in the reserves working with G coy 2 RCR during OP Bravelion in Norway.  At one point I was covering my arcs in a area best described as a postcard of the rual life Europe.  There was this little girl watching us do our thing with her poney in front of a Logg framed home that just screamed " peacefull life".  In my mind I saw that and thought.  It is for her and lives like this that I do my job.  ( may be silly but it did stick with me) It also does not only include what were obviously well off groups of people but any person really.  

Being in the CF I have a job to do our Gov't mandate,  I may have little choice in the end what that mandate is.  However I do it willingly as it is my job for my country.  

Jingnostic sentiment aside a final aspect that was covered.  It is my job, there are responsiabilities that go with me doing what I do and I do them willingly. Since it is my job my personal quirks will have me try to do it to the best of my ability.  I gave a overing oath when I joined the CF, I shall do it as long as I enjoy it.


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## FDO (12 Aug 2009)

The whole "us vs them" or "we" goes back to Pavlov's hierarcy of needs. The need to belong. I belong to an organization that ensures the rest of the hierarcy of needs are fullfilled. Knowing that I have the backing of thousands of like thinking Canadians kind of gives you that warm fuzzy feeling. 

 Everyone in Canada is entitled to their opinion. When I was younger hardest thing for me to hoist onboard was wether I agree with it or not I have sworn to give my life defending that opinion. Show me another "group" that will do that without trying to force their opinions on you!


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## Edward Campbell (12 Aug 2009)

FDO said:
			
		

> The whole "us vs them" or "we" goes back to Pavlov's *Maslow's* hierarcy of needs. The need to belong. I belong to an organization that ensures the rest of the hierarcy of needs are fullfilled. Knowing that I have the backing of thousands of like thinking Canadians kind of gives you that warm fuzzy feeling.
> 
> Everyone in Canada is entitled to their opinion. When I was younger hardest thing for me to hoist onboard was wether I agree with it or not I have sworn to give my life defending that opinion. Show me another "group" that will do that without trying to force their opinions on you!




There; fixed that for you. It's Maslow you're thinking about; Pavlov dealt with conditioned reflexes, etc.


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## raekwon (12 Aug 2009)

Samuel Johnson said, "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel," and I believe him.

That's not to say it is wrong to love your country, just that some will use your love to manipulate your actions.

I, for one, try to avoid blanket statements of patriotism regarding my country, and instead choose to evaluate each issue and acknowledge both the failings and successes of my country and its people. 

As for serving my country, well, I take it literally to mean for the benefit of my country.  I don't serve because I have any kind of ultra-moralistic idea of good vs. evil, only because someone has to serve, and I have the skills required.  That's all.


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## a_majoor (12 Aug 2009)

Individual motivations vary, and change over time. The reasons I joined are no longer the reasons I continue to serve, and perhaps in retrospect, some or all the reasons that I have used to justify remaining in the service have become overtaken by events.

There is the core reason, to serve and protect what I love, and some of those reasons are personal (I wouldn't want my children to grow up in a new dark age ruled by sharia law or tyrannical government), and others are more abstract (so all people can have the right of freedom of speech, ownership of property and the ability to live under the Rule of Law).

Col Chamberlain's speech, saying that "It's the idea we all have value, you and me" is a pretty good summation, and if you feel that your fellow Canadians do "all have value" (regardless of how difficult it is to find, sometimes) then joining the CF, the Police, Fire department or EMS are ways to both express these values as well as protect and preserve them.


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## mariomike (12 Aug 2009)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Col Chamberlain's speech, saying that "It's the idea we all have value, you and me" is a pretty good summation, and if you feel that your fellow Canadians do "all have value" (regardless of how difficult it is to find, sometimes) then joining the CF, the Police, Fire department or EMS are ways to both express these values as well as protect and preserve them.



If I may add our Correctional Officers.


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## FDO (13 Aug 2009)

Thanks for correcting that. I had a 50/50 chance of getting it right. I have the same luck with 6/49.

Also to my last, before I hear about it. Police, Fire Fighters and EMS fit in to the "group"


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## helpup (13 Aug 2009)

mariomike said:
			
		

> If I may add our Correctional Officers.



I am not trying to start a bun fight nor say Correctional services do not belong.  ( nor police, fire, EMS) we can add Medical services in general, custom agents, National Parks employees, Coast Guard.................... Where do we start and stop.  Civil service is serving your country.  Being a productive citizen is serving your country.  Doing non of that is being served by your country.  

Really I am not trying to start a toast,roast or dog pile fight but the comment about adding correctional services got me thinking where does this " group" begin and end.  Please keep comments civil and lets see if we can expand on this line of thought.


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## axeman (13 Aug 2009)

As Heinlein himself stated in Starship Troopers "The rights of a full Citizen (to vote, and hold public office) must be earned through some form of volunteer "military" service. Those residents who have not exercised their right to perform this Federal Service retain the other rights generally associated with a modern democracy (free speech, assembly, etc.), but they cannot vote. This structure arose ad hoc after the collapse of the 20th century western democracies, brought on by both social failures at home and defeat by the Chinese Hegemony overseas. This is a society where John Kennedy's "Ask not want your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" isn't simply a musty old speech, but a core political philosophy." Not  that im advocating something like this but it makes you wonder sometimes would the politicians who do nothing to help some of  problems that we have in the military late equipment orders /cancelled orders, the pension clawback  etc. would they do this if they had served? I dont know occasinally my veiws make me seem somewhere left of TED NUGET and his veiws of democracy . but any way i feel my service has helped me better understand what  a democracy is and how it should be run at least in my veiws . Opinions/ veiws are like a$$holes thjough everyone has one. Anyway my 2 cents is worth what everyone elses is, 2 cents...


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## a_majoor (13 Aug 2009)

As a civic nationalist, I would say the minimum is to be a productive, law abiding citizen.

The CF and Police are at the top of the civic virtue heap simply because they accept an unlimited liability contract, and are willing to lay everything on the line, even their lives, for their fellow citizens.

Other job descriptions like firefighters and EMS may not have explicit "unliited liability" contracts with their fellow citizens, but often operate under conditions of extreme personal stress and danger, hence their position.

Everyone else can lay a claim to being virtuous citizens, but for the most part, they do not operate under unlimited liability contracts, and it is foolish to pretend that they do. As an aside, there are plenty of citizens who, as individuals fall into this category; these are the people who, without hesitation, jump into rivers or burning buildings to save a someone else, taking an unlimited liability for a very short time to deal with an emergency. These good and brave people are a separate category, since they did not and do not accept unlimited liability for their entire careers.


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## mariomike (13 Aug 2009)

helpup said:
			
		

> Really I am not trying to start a toast,roast or dog pile fight but the comment about adding correctional services got me thinking where does this " group" begin and end.  Please keep comments civil and lets see if we can expand on this line of thought.



This is the "family" of Exemplary Service Medals:
http://www.gg.ca/honours/medals/hon04-esm_e.asp
http://www.gg.ca/honours/search-recherche/index_e.asp?TypeID=esm


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## Aerobicrunner (13 Aug 2009)

Tango2Bravo said:
			
		

> It is a complex question, but for me it means putting Canada before myself. Service before self is, perhaps, the most important element of military life. The concept of unlimited liability is critical. By this I mean that a soldier/sailor/airman can be ordered into situations that could cost them their life. This makes military service fairly unique.
> 
> While a unit, squadron or ship should certainly develop the kind of teamwork and sense of belonging that is felt in a sports team (especially at lower levels like the section, vehicle etc), at the end of the day we must remember that serve Canada. The military is subservient to legal civilian authority and exists to serve and defend the interests of Canada. Individuals in the military must be able to execute legal orders regardless of their personal feelings or interests.
> 
> At the risk of sounding preachy I don't think that there is anything silly about patriotism. I am proud of Canada and I am willing to risk all to defend it.



...and I think your comments segue nicely into this excerpt I found as part of a sentencing statement in one of the Court Martial decisions in the JAG site:

"Discipline is that quality that every CF member must have which allows him or her to put the interests of Canada and the interests of the Canadian Forces before personal interests. This is necessary because Canadian Forces members must willingly and promptly obey lawful orders that may have very devastating personal consequences such as injury and death. I describe discipline as a quality, because ultimately, although it is something which is developed and encouraged by the Canadian Forces through instruction, training and practice, it is an internal quality that is one of the fundamental prerequisites to operational efficiency in any armed force."


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## mellian (13 Aug 2009)

axeman said:
			
		

> As Heinlein himself stated in Starship Troopers....



While I have yet read book, I read lots about it and the concepts introduced by. I am fan of the idea of requiring to have done civil service to gain the right to vote, and in turn assume run for elections. As long civil service is not base only on military kind, and includes other forms and ways one can achieve it, to me anyway I believe it can work. Not everyone agrees with me of course, especially due to the potential of discrimination of certain sections of the populace and push towards a more militarize society. 

As for whether one's activism or past of being disloyal to the country in some way, it is really a matter of perspective. Even with anti-war protesting or activism in general, one can still be nationalistic in their beliefs, as in they are fighting/pushing for better world and country for all of us to live in. Just that there is different ideas on what is best for the country and world. In the same vein, just because one is anti-war or has been does not mean they cannot be pro-military. It is something I had to point in some of the debates and discussions I had with fellow anti-war folks. Nothing in my experience is as simple as black and white.


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## mariomike (13 Aug 2009)

mellian said:
			
		

> Nothing in my experience is as simple as black and white.



The army is the best thing ever happened to me. 
I never asked myself why, but maybe you gave me the answer. 
I was able to focus my energy on self-improvement and embrace the discipline.


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## mellian (13 Aug 2009)

EPF said:
			
		

> You seem to me like a girl who likes to stir up things! Maybe you should go Armour... there isn't a worst kind of trouble than combat.   >



Online anyways, and mainly for constructive and devil advocate reasons.   

Of course, I tend to stir things up whether I want to or not in real life, as me applying and in being the CF potentially can be, especially with Armour in comparisons to my other choices.



			
				Jungle said:
			
		

> Your values are in contradiction to the CF's; I question your motivations to join.



I question your knowledge of my values and what my motivations to join are. 



> I seem to remember that you want to join as an Officer ? There will be times (should you make it) when you will EXPECT your subordinates to follow your orders blindly; I hope when that happens you will remember what you wrote here.
> Have you thought about the fact that you may end up a "very questionable person " yourself ? If I served beside you, I would very seriously question your loyalty and integrity.



You know what? Having anyone faithfully follow me blindly no matter what scares the crap out of me. Not just in terms of responsibility, but that I may eff things up and uselessly cost their lives or that of others. I am the sort that would seek feedback as much as reasonably possible and making sure they know what they are getting into...in the right time and place of course...while assuring as much as possible to assure their safety. I question any leader who do not factor in the welfare of their people and soldiers. 

Whatever the case, due to financial issues with my university, I am unable to complete my education presently a long with getting an official transcript for the ROTP/CEOTP applications. I figured would be better to apply as NCM, and then later when I pay off my present school debt (not student loans), will determine then whether I should apply for CEOTP or not. 



> I respect that you want to fight for what you believe in, but make sure you do it from the right "moral ground"; in your case, I doubt the Military is the right place. I am not convinced you would be able to do that in the CF.



What is this 'right moral ground' you speak of?


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## mellian (13 Aug 2009)

mariomike said:
			
		

> The army is the best thing ever happened to me.
> I never asked myself why, but maybe you gave me the answer.
> I was able to focus my energy on self-improvement and embrace the discipline.



Basically part of why I would like to join the Canadian Forces help me better myself in terms of self-discipline and self-motivation, as well as a career and some kind of purpose. Essentially, seeking a group to help fulfill individual needs...yes, I am a fan of the Hierarchy of Needs.


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## helpup (13 Aug 2009)

Personally I hate the whole hiegharchy of needs. but I do understand where it comes from. ................. with out trying to sound like a cheer leader I think she answered some questions. That were, in my opinion, unfairly put forward. Let loose the perspective of someones past and try and see them for who they can be.  If that is not someones quote then maybe it should be.


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## Roy Harding (13 Aug 2009)

mellian said:
			
		

> While I have yet read book, I read lots about it and the concepts introduced by. I am fan of the idea of requiring to have done civil service to gain the right to vote, and in turn assume run for elections. As long civil service is not base only on military kind, and includes other forms and ways one can achieve it, to me anyway I believe it can work. Not everyone agrees with me of course, especially due to the potential of discrimination of certain sections of the populace and push towards a more militarize society.
> 
> As for whether one's activism or past of being disloyal to the country in some way, it is really a matter of perspective. Even with anti-war protesting or activism in general, one can still be nationalistic in their beliefs, as in they are fighting/pushing for better world and country for all of us to live in. Just that there is different ideas on what is best for the country and world. In the same vein, just because one is anti-war or has been does not mean they cannot be pro-military. It is something I had to point in some of the debates and discussions I had with fellow anti-war folks. Nothing in my experience is as simple as black and white.



I tend to agree with you regarding both points.

I have ALWAYS been an advocate of some type of compulsory "National Service" - whether that service is military, or in some type of Peace Corps outfit (probably controlled by DFAIT), would be up to the individual.  Those in the Peace Corps thing would do such things as assist those DFAIT initiatives in less "volatile" regions of the world.  Help with food distribution, irrigation projects, infrastructure construction - and so on.  I _THINK_ such compulsory service (military or "Peace Corps") would eventually give rise to a much more aware and less self-absorbed citizenry.

As far as protesting various government decisions goes - that remains not only a RIGHT, but in my opinion a DUTY of all citizens.  How that protest is pursued (as long as it is legal) is a matter of supreme indifference to me.  Personally, I'm an inveterate emailer of various political folk - pointing out their mistakes in logic, and my displeasure with their various actions - and even occasionally complimenting their various actions).

I don't have a problem with _legal_ protesters (even those whose position I disagree with) - and I don't understand why anybody would.


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## The Bread Guy (13 Aug 2009)

Jumping in a bit late, but I've given this a bit of thought in light of what others have posted.

After a bit of time in the military and other endeavours, when I think about my most satisfying times (mostly training and teaching of one sort or another), I think it comes back to this for me:

Serving your community (define it at will) means doing something that contributes to something bigger than yourself, the "greater good", if you will.  Your effort leads to some things being, eventually, better than you found them.

We can always argue the perfection (or lack thereof) of systems within which we work, but for me, I've felt best when I know I'm making a difference to the people I dealt with or the system as a whole (OK, sometimes it was only the bit of the system that I could see, but nonetheless...).  This is where "thinking in shades of grey" comes in.



			
				Roy Harding said:
			
		

> I have ALWAYS been an advocate of some type of compulsory "National Service" - whether that service is military, or in some type of Peace Corps outfit (probably controlled by DFAIT), would be up to the individual.  Those in the Peace Corps thing would do such things as assist those DFAIT initiatives in less "volatile" regions of the world.  Help with food distribution, irrigation projects, infrastructure construction - and so on.  I _THINK_ such compulsory service (military or "Peace Corps") would eventually give rise to a much more aware and less self-absorbed citizenry.


In general, I'd love to hope so, too, but like with compulsory military service, I wonder about the results on the system of people being forced to do something they may not want to do.

In Ontario, for example, there's been a requirement for a few years now that high school students do a certain number of hours of community volunteer service in order to graduate.  Even with that in place (and I stand to be corrected by those who deal with such populations), I don't believe it's led to an overall increase in moral fortitude in young people across the board.



			
				Roy Harding said:
			
		

> As far as protesting various government decisions goes - that remains not only a RIGHT, but in my opinion a DUTY of all citizens.  How that protest is pursued (as long as it is legal) is a matter of supreme indifference to me.


Here, here - one thing among many that jumped out at me when I visited Arlington National Cemetery for my first time is this inscription, attributed to George Washington, in the Memorial Amphitheatre:

*"When we assumed the soldier we did not lay aside the citizen."*​


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## Michael OLeary (13 Aug 2009)

mariomike said:
			
		

> ??? Is that what they call Chain of Command now?



No, may I suggest this link for more info.


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## 223ofDemocracy (13 Aug 2009)

For me "serving your country" is anything that attempts to maintain our way of life of Canada. Attempting to better or maintain our standard of living, or our status of a free and democratic society. "Serving your country" may not be necessarily defined as a military aspect, something like volunteer work or voting could be considered serving your country.


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## a_majoor (15 Aug 2009)

223ofDemocracy said:
			
		

> For me "serving your country" is anything that attempts to maintain our way of life of Canada. Attempting to better or maintain our standard of living, or our status of a free and democratic society. "Serving your country" may not be necessarily defined as a military aspect, something like volunteer work or voting could be considered serving your country.



While you are correct so far as it goes, there is still a distinct heirarchy of service. Serving your country in a soup kitchen or foodbank is a low impact, low risk activity and many people who serve are motivated by "feel good" reasons rather than devotion to service (that is why I generally volunteer my time to church charity groups instead). The greater the personal risks you are willing to take, and the greater the expected payoffs generally equals the greater contribution you are making for the nation.

Military members explicitly volunteer with an unlimited liability contract, and well over 125 members have died in Afghanistan since 2002. We go where our government tells us, do what is asked and generally hope that our actions will have a great impact on Canada and the greater world. The fact that we are willing to fight and die to protect the ability of others to contribute in their own ways also makes military service a different order of serving your country than anything else.


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## mariomike (15 Aug 2009)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> While you are correct so far as it goes, there is still a distinct heirarchy of service. Serving your country in a soup kitchen or foodbank is a low impact, low risk activity and many people who serve are motivated by "feel good" reasons rather than devotion to service (that is why I generally volunteer my time to church charity groups instead). The greater the personal risks you are willing to take, and the greater the expected payoffs generally equals the greater contribution you are making for the nation.
> 
> Military members explicitly volunteer with an unlimited liability contract, and well over 125 members have died in Afghanistan since 2002. We go where our government tells us, do what is asked and generally hope that our actions will have a great impact on Canada and the greater world. The fact that we are willing to fight and die to protect the ability of others to contribute in their own ways also makes military service a different order of serving your country than anything else.



Thank you for organizing my thoughts into words.


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