# Confederate Flag Displaying



## Stubble Jumper (3 Jan 2004)

Hey all,

Is it illegal in the CF to display the confederate flag?

I think it is, but does anybody know for sure?

Thanks


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## East Side Soprano (3 Jan 2004)

I don‘t think so, nobody really expects a Canadian to fly a confederate flag...can‘t really see that happening.


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## Padraig OCinnead (3 Jan 2004)

Yes it is. It cannot be publicly displayed in POMVs(on Base), PMQs, shacks or the workplace. I‘ll try to get the link to it when I get back to work next week.

Pet had to go through this in the mid 90‘s. In Winnipeg the same thing happened and people were not happy but took them down.

The same goes for any other flag that can bring discredit to CF. Swastika, White Supremist or such others deemed by some clown tucked away in an office.


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## Redeye (3 Jan 2004)

East Side Soprano, since I‘m almost willing to bet that you don‘t even know what the significance of the Confederate Battle Flag is to the CF and why its display is presently banned, I‘d suggest this to be one of the many topics you should keep your perceived authority restrained on.

Just a tip.  Ask questions, learn, etc, but don‘t speak of things which you don‘t know about except to do the first two things.


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## Brock (3 Jan 2004)

East Side Soprano:

The Confederate flag was the Flag of the "South" in the US Civil War (1860-1865), which was fought more or less over the southern US states breakaway over the slavery issue.  Thus the Confederate flag--although cool looking--is a symbole of racism.  It is the same with Nazi Swastika.  Kind of a cool looking flag, but flying it is a symbol of racism no matter what one argues about it "cool factor".  I have personnally seen Confederate flags hung up in the "shacks" at CFB Gagetown.  I am not impressed.  I don‘t care what one argues, people in the Canadian military should face serious discipline for racist items.  I highly doubt anyone would argue that it is okay to display a massive Nazi swastika flag in one‘s room.  Apparently, the military needs troops so bad we can overlook such unacceptable behaviour.


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## Redeye (3 Jan 2004)

Brock:

I‘m not going to start a pissing match over the flag - it incidentally, was the Confederate States of America‘s battle flag, not their national flag - but you should be aware that it is not explicitly a symbol of racism, nor was the Civil War only over slavery (to take from your post (a great deal less than more).  In fact, it‘s not really a racist symbol except in the tremendously PC world.  It is displayed with pride by many of my "in-laws" who are Southerners and not in the least bit racists as a nostalgic symbol.  Comparing it to a Nazi flag is a bit ridiculous.

It is a symbol of defiance and rebellion, and it is controversial in the CF because it is frequently associated with the Canadian Airborne Regiment, and in particular with the very few "bad apples" who spoiled the CAR.  My understanding, as explained to be by a former CAR Sgt, is that it was popular among all ranks as a symbol of the fact that the Airborne Regiment was a bit different, a unit with perceived elitism.  "Defiance" and "rebellion" are not exactly military virtues, but one Soviet commentator (I wish I could find the exact quote) once remarked that the Soviets feared the Canadians (in particular the CAR) for their unpredictable nature and unwillingness to read, let alone follow doctrine.

For this reason, some ex-CAR men do (subtlely) display the Battle Flag to this day.  While I don‘t disagree that its display to the public on bases is probably not a good idea and existing rules should be enforced, I don‘t see what the big deal about it is.


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## dbrock (3 Jan 2004)

good day to every1,

The Civil war was not just about the slave issue but about states rights.  The states broke away for political reasons as well i.e the cotton taxes that was levied on the southern states rivaled that of the tea tax that started the american revolution.  Some states still have the stars and bars as part of their state flag.  There is no reason why a member of the Canadian Forces should have a confederate flag in his or her barracks or any other flag that is not authorised. Remember they are living on Canadian Government property and are subect to the Queen‘s regulations and orders.  Racism has no place in the Canadian Forces.  I think these small minded individuals are a bunch of wannabe‘s that have no concept of the real world and what their jobs really are. Perhaps they should turn in their uniforms for a white pointed hat and gown.


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## xFusilier (3 Jan 2004)

> I‘m not going to start a pissing match over the flag


Neither am I, but any one who does not believe that the abolition of slavery was not the single largest reason for the American Civil War need‘s their head checked out.  People find the Confederate Battle flag offensive because it points to another great piece of "Southern Heritage" the believe that one human being is authorized by god, nontheless to own another human being.  It has IMHO no place in the Canadian military and never did.


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## Redeye (3 Jan 2004)

XFusilier, you‘re correct that it doesn‘t really have a place in the CF at all and shouldn‘t be displayed (as someone above mentioned) on Govt Property.

I will, however, dispute the slavery allegation.  That was a corollary issue to the matter of state‘s rights and economic disparities.  I‘m not sure what education you‘ve had on the Civil War, but since my other half is a Southerner and I‘ve spent an appreciable amount of time in the South, I can tell you that‘s not really the case.  Of course, the use of slave labour would come under state rights, but the real issue was the structure of national governments (a loose confederation vice a strong federation).  They felt a strong Northern government was simply using the South as a source of commodities to get rich off of, and the CSA was spawned on the belief that they could do a better job.

In the end, it doesn‘t matter much for our purposes.  The flag has negative (if erroneous) connotations to some, and is somewhat justly not permitted in CF facilities.


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## Stubble Jumper (3 Jan 2004)

Hey,

Didnt mean to start a flame war here   

From a historical/political point of view slavery wasnt the leading cause of the Civil War.  Although Modern Pop History would lead you to believe that. The north owned slaves too.  However freeing the slaves was mostly political/propanaga move to demonize the south and rally the blacks to help solve the manpower shortage at the front line. 

Politics are never clear cut or good vs evil, even now.  There are always underlying factors that make politicians move on issues when it is in their best interest or forced.  The key to seeing the world for what it is is to see these underlying factors.

A good example is ww2 and the USA‘s Myth "Crusade against Nazism".  If the US was truely concerned about the spread of the 3rd Reich, then why did they only join the war in Dec 41 after Japan attacked them?  Or alot of countries denying entry of people fleeing Germany?

The world is full of examples like these throughout history.

Thanks for the reply on the Flag Query.  One of my new young neighbours was using it as a curtain in the Q‘s.  Didnt want to see a young guy get hung for not knowing.


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## Redeye (3 Jan 2004)

You didn‘t start a flame war, don‘t worry!


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## nbk (3 Jan 2004)

I believe the confederate flag should be noted as something that could be considered offensive no matter what the intentions behind hanging it were.

If a Buddhist found a NAZI political flag at a surplus store and hung it up, he would probably get disciplined to death, even though the swastika is  a popular symbol throughout Asia which represents luck and soforth.

Its hard (and annoying) to be PC all the time, but in something which has a perticular public image such as the Canadian Army, why even bother with the controversy? Its not going to offend people if it is not run up the flag poll, so why bother even creating a possible issue?


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## Recce41 (3 Jan 2004)

Ok
 You cannot fly any flag from windows in the shacks or walls. It is not illgal to have the flag on your car or on base. It just went a lil weird in 95 with the CAR. 
2 Cdo did have the flag, it was given to them yrs ago by the US Army. But of course Canadians panic. OOOO its a Rebel flag,OOOO your a racist, OOOO your a skin head. It was just like you couldn‘t shave your head. 
 Now look, most people do.
 I had one on my Truck the MPs stopped me, I told them Its on my truck and I am leaving it. Nothing came about it.
 The flag is still the state flag for some southern states.


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## East Side Soprano (3 Jan 2004)

Redeye: I know the significance of the Confederate flag and some of the history behind it. I don‘t claim to know everything about it. I didn‘t believe it was illegal because I have never seen a Confederate flown and I don‘t know why anybody in Canada would associate themselves with that flag (not many southern Americans here in Canada), not because I didn‘t know the significance of the flag. I just voiced what I thought was true, not what I claimed was true, notice the way I made my post, I didn‘t sound like I was the absolute authority on the subject, did I? But i made the post because I wanted people to know what I think, if you can‘t live with that...meh. You came on too strong there, don‘t let your emotions take over, but thanks for coming out...

Just a tip. Loosen up a little bit, don‘t get your panties in a knot just because you disagree with me, I‘m sure you could have made your post a little bit more polite.


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## Redeye (3 Jan 2004)

To quote nbk:

"If a Buddhist found a NAZI political flag at a surplus store and hung it up, he would probably get disciplined to death, even though the swastika is a popular symbol throughout Asia which represents luck and soforth."

Rightly so - no Asian would confuse a Nazi flag‘s modified swastika with the popular Asian symbol - the symbol as you see it on Buddhist, Sikh, Hindu, and other temples is the swastika reverse from the way the Nazis used it, and not at an angle.  That‘s a pretty clear cut case.

Recce41 - I forgot about the fact that it was 2Cdo that originally received the gift of the flag.  You‘re right about the battle flag being part of several state flags, though that number is dwindling rapidly.  The former governor of Georgia, Roy Barnes, lost an election primarily over his unilateral decision to change the Georgia state flag so as to remove the Battle Flag from it.


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## Ex-Dragoon (3 Jan 2004)

You know when you think of it...any flag or symbol can cause offence. Look at the Scottish Tartans it was banned I believe after that Battle of Culluden. It was deemed offensive by the Brits and made illegal, after all they did win the war.I wonder had the Confederacy won the Civil War would the Stars and Stripes be viewed in a similiar light.


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## East Side Soprano (3 Jan 2004)

Great post Ex-Dragoon, I never looked at the issue from that angle myself.


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## onecat (4 Jan 2004)

Its the flag of White Supremacist.  Sure there maybe some pride in being from the south.  But connection with the white pride racisms, cannot be over looked.  And there for should not be used on any CF bases.  Anyone who is flying this flag, is also flying a "whites only" flag no matter much they try to say its not so.  And this has nothing to do with being PC, history has made this flag, a flag of racism, the KKK and of White Supremacists. If it was truly a flag of southern pride you would see it used by the black population in the US... and that just isn‘t happening.


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## ArmyAl (4 Jan 2004)

I have a Jolly Rogers or pirate flag flying on my truck in the field, am I a pirate then?
Arrr, shiver me timbers!

or

maybe I‘m a SS wannabe because it‘s the death head!
Hmmm, how do the words to Horst Wessel Lied go again?

or

I‘m a Stone Cold Steve Austin fan
3:16 baby

Recce41, you have the freedom to have that flag, could have sworn I saw you with the rainbow flag HAHA

S_Baker, I love it when you shut down the dumb***es with anti american remarks, if they only knew

My 2 cents   :skull:


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## Roger (4 Jan 2004)

The CAR was disbanded because of political reasons, the Forces had to cut 25% and they where expensive to keep and at the time the press was after them.

You cannot blame the actions of a few to the many; imagine disbanding governments or Police departments.

A few people conceive the confederate flag as racist and some racists groups have used the flag as a symbol, the members of the CAR did not have it for that reason but at the time they where under the presses watchful eye and they received bad press from it.

I think the Forces just learned a lesson and now tryâ€™s to protect itself from bad press, imagine having your picture used in a paper saying youâ€™re a racist because you had a flag that you thought was cool, it could happen.


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## Gunner (4 Jan 2004)

Redeye said  





> , but one Soviet commentator (I wish I could find the exact quote) once remarked that the Soviets feared the Canadians (in particular the CAR) for their unpredictable nature and unwillingness to read, let alone follow doctrine.


.  This quote has been variously attributed to German Commanders in WWII and to Soviet Commanders during the Cold War.  It is usually contained in various "military blunders" and "military commonsense" lists of combat.  I very much doubt that a Soviet commentator would say anything such as this.  As far as the Soviets fearing the CAR...absolute nonsense.  

The best arguement I have heard for the use of the Confederate flag, particularly when it is still flown by some southern US states, is that it portrays heritage, not hatred.  Something only becomes offensive when it is used as a means to illustrate motives.  For example, the swastika by Hitler and the Nazi‘s, and the confederate flag by various white supremeist groups, etc. 

The banning of the Confederate flag on CF establishments was simply a means to combat a negative public image that we contained a hotbed of racism, particularly in the CAR.   A couple of airborne guys drunk with a video camera and look what the result was.


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## mattoigta (4 Jan 2004)

"If it was truly a flag of southern pride you would see it used by the black population in the US... and that just isn‘t happening. "

I was talking to a black man from Arkansas, and I asked him about that and he told me he flies it on his house, as do a lot of other blacks in the south.


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## Recce41 (4 Jan 2004)

Quote "Its the flag of White Supremacist. Sure there maybe some pride in being from the south. But connection with the white pride racisms, cannot be over looked. And there for should not be used on any CF bases. Anyone who is flying this flag, is also flying a "whites only" flag no matter much they try to say its not so. And this has nothing to do with being PC, history has made this flag, a flag of racism, the KKK and of White Supremacists. If it was truly a flag of southern pride you would see it used by the black population in the US... and that just isn‘t happening". 

Radiohead
 I personally think your right out of it on this. I have been to the south and as Pte S stated colour people do fly them. It like saying I have my hair very short, Im a skin head. wrong!
 I have a Orangemen‘s flag, does this mean I‘m a anti-RC.wrong again. 

Gunnar: I heard that also. But tell an American that. They still think they saved us from the Commies. I was a member of the Quarter Guard for the Soviet VCDS. He had said he rather fight the Americans, than the Canadians. We don‘t follow the rules. Ptes will lead, and our officers, think at a low level.


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## Gunner (4 Jan 2004)

> officers, think at a low level.


Recce41, not sure if you think this is a good thing or a bad thing!     

Canadians in war have traditionally been very rigid in our operations.  German military commanders were very complimentary on the fighting quality of Candians but that we were too methodical in our methods.  We simply weren‘t able to seize the initiative.  Not sure if that has changed although I agree with Recce41 that at the tactical level, we produce some outstanding soldiers.

If and when we do go to an actual "war" I think we will have to relearn alot of the past lessons the hard way.  It has been too long since we have had any practical experience.  In the 80s, the thought of our Infantry Fighting Vehicle (M113) blocking a Soviet offensive, armed with an open top .50 remains absolutely frightening to me.  We were very lucky we were never called into play.


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## ArmyAl (4 Jan 2004)

Loving it S_Baker
keep it coming


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## nbk (4 Jan 2004)

Now to throw a wrench into the mower.

The Northern Alliance (Canadian brance of an american neo nazi group) uses the old red ensign as their white power flag.

You can find pictures of them waving it at their site, which can be located by typing Northern Alliance into google. I will not link that site because it is quite disgusting.

I realize the red ensign is not perticularly associated with "white pride", but nonetheless, it is used by this small silly group of people, so should it be looked down upon?


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## humint (4 Jan 2004)

My advice is this: 

Don‘t display the Confederate flag in your shacks unless you want a world of hurt. 

It is not what YOU perceive it as (i.e. cool factor Southern Battle Flag and a historical item), but what your Plt Cmdr and his/her OC perceives it as (i.e. a racist symbol), as well as the CO. 

And, if someone complains about it being a symbol of harassment or intimidation, than you will get the full brunt of SHARP all over your ***.

Although in many mess halls you will find Nazi war items, they are war booty, and their presence can be justified. 

I am sure you will have a hard time justifying the presence of the Confederate Flag in your shacks. 

So, that said, it is best left at home.

Remember, your number one interest is keeping yourself in the CF.


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## JSA (4 Jan 2004)

I have a rebel flag tattoo‘d on my arm, does that make me a racist? I served in 2Cdo, does that make me a racist? I was born in the US, does that make me a racist?  Just because some officer doesn‘t like the flag your saying that I should never show it?  I had it on my bike for years while instructing at the battleschool and serving in the cdo‘s, no one ever said a word.  My advise to you is if you have a reason to display the flag do so (and be prepared to take the heat).  And if you don‘t, why would you want to fly it?  js


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## Armymedic (4 Jan 2004)

two points/questions
1. Doesn‘t the Alabama state flage bear resemblance the the Confederate flag?

2. Can anyone find in the QR&O‘s or CFAO‘s(DOADs, whatever) where it staes that you may not hang up a state flag in your residence?


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## Michael Dorosh (4 Jan 2004)

The Alabama state flag incorporates the Confederate flag.  Bear in mind that what we call the Confederate flag (Blue St. Andrews Cross on red field with 13 white stars on the cross) was never the official flag of the Confederate States of America.  It was never a state flag, either.  It was carried as a national colour by units in the field to be used as a rallying point during battle.  It was never an official emblem of anything, and as such, no one can claim that they are flying it for "a reason", because it was never meant to represent anything specific.

On the other hand, its current association with both neo-nazi groups and racist groups (and its past association with an army that was fighting to keep an entire race in bondage), pretty much rules out its presence in polite company.  Any Canadian who flies the flag, has it on their pickup truck, or tattooed on their skin can probably be best described in uncomplimentary terms.  It‘s certainly not the insignia of MENSA or the Secret Society of Rocket Scientists.


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## JSA (4 Jan 2004)

I won‘t respond in kind.  js


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## Jeff Boomhouwer (4 Jan 2004)

What about the Dukes of Hazzard. The General Lee was\is one bad*ss car,it had the Confederate flag proudly painted on the roof. I don‘t beleve the good ole boys or the producers of the show were racist. Just southern boys. NAH NAH NAW NAW,NAW NAW NAH NAH NAH NAH NAW NAAAAH YEEEEEHAAAAA!!!!!!


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## Garry (4 Jan 2004)

Preconceived notions are a terrible thing, maybe second only to allowing someone else to think for you....or is it the same thing?

The reasons behind the Civil War (or is it the War of Northern Agression?) are there for anyone to find- maybe you should check them out for yourselves.

Any display of most anything now is offensive to someone....heck, being outraged at things that are none of your business offends me!

One of the joys of being Canadian is that we are, for the most part, kinda naive... we truly do believe that most folks are good, and most of us have little or no prejuidice- other than the preconceived notions that have been displayed in many posts above.

Loosen up a little, folks- must be tough wiping your rears with q-tips.

It‘s a flag- more to the point, what a guy does his own business.

Cheers-Garry


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## Recce41 (4 Jan 2004)

Baker
 Don‘t take it personally. I believe, it is because the Soviet Army direct leadership stops at Regt level. In our Army we have had MCpls as troop leaders. I was Crew commanding as a Tpr with an yr in. And a Ptl commander as a Cpl. I have been on SUEs and have never seen a pte CC in the US army. I see a full crew of Sgts. When I was in Bosnia, some of the Eastern Europe officers. I met thought we were all Elite Soldiers, due we all had scopes on out weapons. Only Soviet elite troops have scopes. 
 Just as we in the west have fails ideas of the east.
 As for the US saving us from the Commies, I have been on US web sites. And make a statement As we as NATO defeated Commies. And get blasted from all sides.
 The NDP is not a Commie party. It is a socialist. A party that believes in the people not in businesses. If it were a true Communist Party, we would have a very large Army with them. They want to get rid of the Military.
So just slow down, and not a D***.


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## Gunner (4 Jan 2004)

> The Northern Alliance (Canadian brance of an american neo nazi group) uses the old red ensign as their white power flag.
> 
> You can find pictures of them waving it at their site, which can be located by typing Northern Alliance into google. I will not link that site because it is quite disgusting.


NBK, the site you didn‘t want to link to is here:  Northern Alliance 

Never be afraid to confront different opinions.  I don‘t subscribe to the crap they have on their website but I will support their right to express their views.  We are in danger in Canada of losing our ability to openly discuss (or even disagree) with many key issues without being branded racist, sexist, etc, etc.  Never subscribe to the moral censorship so often displayed by the left wing elements within our society.


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## Michael Dorosh (4 Jan 2004)

> Originally posted by Garry:
> [qb] Preconceived notions are a terrible thing, maybe second only to allowing someone else to think for you....or is it the same thing?
> 
> The reasons behind the Civil War (or is it the War of Northern Agression?) are there for anyone to find- maybe you should check them out for yourselves.
> ...


Ignorance is bliss Garry.  You must be ecstatic.

Supposing for the sake of argument that your grandmother had been tortured in a German concentration camp in WW II, and I decided to fly the Third Reich battle flag on a flagpole in front or my house - across the street from hers - would that still be nobody‘s business but mine?

Thousands of lives were lost in the US Civil War to ensure that the institution of slavery would perish from the North American continent, and that all men would live in freedom, equal under God.  That ideal has never been fully realized, but real men died in order to bring us closer to its ultimate fruition.

One can trivialize the racism of the Confederacy all they want by injecting bad 1970s TV shows into the conversation, but that‘s just a sign of intellectual bankruptcy.  On the other hand, if anyone can think of a legitimate reason why they should be permitted to display either a Third Reich flag or a Confederate flag outside of the realm of drama (motion picture, television or live theatre productions), historical preservation (museum displays, battle-re-enactments, living history events), please do so now.

I do not agree with censorship and believe in freedom of speech; that freedom comes with obvious limits as recognized by a moral society (child pornography, national security, slander, fraud and other offences to decency, justice or fairness).  We are, unfortunately, left to individual judgement on what may or may not be offensive.  I should think in some cases that judgement call is not as difficult to make as some persons - Garry included, apparently - would like to pretend.

If you tell me not to wear the colour blue because it offends your sense of Feng Shui, I will probably ignore you.  If, on the other hand, you tell me not to fly a flag symbolizing a regime guilty of promoting (and acting upon) race hatred or genocide, I like to think I would be inclined to respect your point of view.


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## combat_medic (4 Jan 2004)

Despite the freedoms of speech and expression in Canada, there are still certain limitations to what can be done in uniform. One kid in Shilo was wearing a t-shirt on his day off that said "Drunk chicks think I‘m hot." He was pulled aside by one of the Senior NCOs on base, made to remove, and was given a reprimand for it. Also, if you have certain racial or gang-related tattoos, you will not be allowed into the army in the first place.

Having a tattoo, sticker, or other insignia of a confederate flag displayed in uniform or on military property can be deemed offensive. The local harassment officer can make you take it off, or take it down. Even having such a symbol in a PMQ or shack is still within the jurisdiction of the QR&Os. 

Whether or not you have your own reasons for having it displayed, racially-oriented or not, if someone finds it offensive and complains about it, then you can be made to remove it. Fair or not, that‘s just the way it is.


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## Jarnhamar (4 Jan 2004)

Some people are terrified of the whole race issue. I got in a lot of hot water because i got what someone thought was a racist tatoo. It was a maple leaf inside a greatful dead head on my back shouler blade. They somehow believed it was racist and wanted me reprimanded. Thankfully someone above them told them to quit being a moron and the issue was dropped.  

Soon as someone mentions racisim and your ont he accusing end you better run to church and donate to the orphanage.


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## East Side Soprano (4 Jan 2004)

Very true Ghost, it‘s unfortunate that race has become such a major issue and many people feel intimidated because they fear that their actions may be perceived as racist.


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## humint (4 Jan 2004)

Sure, you can express your views all you want due to Charter of Rights and Freedoms, however there are limits. Basically, you can express your views just as long as you don‘t break any laws or contravene the Canadian Human Rights Code (i.e. promote genocide, hate, or any criminal offence). 

In our case, we also have to tip-toe through SHARP policies. 

I‘m not saying that you can‘t put up the flag. But if you do, just be ready to defend your views. If they are not sound, be prepared to pay the price. 

This is not a philosophical debate on whether or not hanging the flag is morally right or wrong, but rather a realpolitik debate on what will happen if you hang it up in the shacks -- and that is, someone is bound to complain.


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## nbk (4 Jan 2004)

> Originally posted by combat_medic:
> [qb] Also, if you have certain racial or gang-related tattoos, you will not be allowed into the army in the first place.
> 
> (...)
> ...


Would you think people would find an  Iron Cross tattoo offensive? Its an old Imperial German army symbol, from the Napoleanic wars, although the nazi‘s did use a revised version. Basically I wan‘t to know if I would get chewed out for having it.


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## humint (4 Jan 2004)

I think you‘re playing with fire. Sure, you could say it‘s a Maltese Cross or something, and you may even get away with it. But, your real concern is not getting chewed out, but whether or not you will get kicked out of the Army for having offensive tats or symbols in your shacks.


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## humint (4 Jan 2004)

Here is some stuff that may help you:

 http://www.dnd.ca/admfincs/subjects/daod/5012/0_e.asp 

 http://www.dnd.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/019-43_e.asp 


EO 101.06
"12.	BODY TATOOS:

Members shall not acquire visible tattoos that could be deemed to be offensive (e.g., pornographic, blasphemous, racist) or otherwise reflect discredit on the CF."


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## Jarnhamar (4 Jan 2004)

My grandfather won an iron cross during ww2. I don‘t see what is so wrong with it. How is us wearing a germanish tatoo any different then an american or french one? We‘ve fought all 3 and worked with all 3 as well.


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## Garry (5 Jan 2004)

Michael,

Thanks for the cheap shot, I feel much better now.

You wrote:
"I do not agree with censorship and believe in freedom of speech; that freedom comes with obvious limits as recognized by a moral society.."

Define morals. Sex with a 13 yr old? Ghastly- and I concur. However, 100 years ago many were married at 12, and pumping out kids by 13. Ask any of our parents what they thing of Brittany Spears behaviour...she would have been jailed years ago...just as the first woman to ride a motorcycle across the country was- her crime? Wearing pants.

Morals change, for right or wrong, and your morals are yours, but not necessarily mine.

Perhaps they should be. After all, one of the things that defines a country are it‘s social mores and individual morals. In an immigrant friendly nation like ours, however, the old "one shoe fits all" is dead: we are a nation of widely varied customs and morals, and it‘s a heck of a job gaining consensus.

It‘s exacerbated by narrow minded individuals who can‘t let go of the past, and insist on legislating their personal beliefs.

We used to call them "busybodies".

I‘ll agree with you that seeing a Nazi party flag flying in front of a persons house would drive me nuts. What would really cheeze me off is finding out that my tax dollars are paying the rent.    

I‘ve been in this position before (seeing things that people did that cheezed me off). You know what I did? Nothing. Why? None of my danged business.

Please don‘t confuse this with, as a society, failing to protect the weak. That involves the rule of law, backed by the will of society. Thank God we still have a semblance of that.

Now, if their pursuit of personal happiness infringed on my ability to pursue mine, then we have a problem. For instance, the Aryan Nation moves in next door. Pleasant? No. However, they bought and paid for the land, my tough luck. If they have the stereo banging at 3 in the morning, keeping me awake, it becomes their poor decision.

You will never be able to legislate common sense (too bad too) nor will you ever agree with 30 million people just exactly what constitutes good moral beliefs. (once again, too bad)

You can, however, pontificate from on high just fine.

Need a q-tip?

Cheers-Garry


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## Armymedic (5 Jan 2004)

So tell me, where(in the QR&O‘s, DOADs, etc) does it say I can‘t hang the confedrate flag:
1. in my barracks room?
2. in my basement of my PMQ?
3. as a sticker on my car that I drive to work?


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## Ex-Dragoon (5 Jan 2004)

Face it...the higher ups have deemed the Condfederate Flag to be offensive so its illegal to display it on DND property whether that decision is right or wrong who can say. Society and us as individuals either find things offensive or not. Its when the individual na dsociety disagree is when we have the problem. If DND policy says nothing racist or offensive is to be displayed, live with it. The military is not a democracy and complaining about it is not going to make legal to hang the Star and Bars from you shack wall. You want to hang it up or the swastika (for that matter)in your own home, I personally don‘t care but remember this your actions on or off duty can bring credit or disgrace to the CF. Its your choice.


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## Jarnhamar (5 Jan 2004)

129.

I always thought that you cannot display a flag (or not suposed to) unless it was properly mounted and hung. Thats what i‘ve always seen instructors and what not use as a reason during courses for room inspections and what not.


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## combat_medic (5 Jan 2004)

Armymedic: In the 2 DAOD links posted by humint, it pretty much sums it up;

_Harassment is any improper conduct by an individual that is directed at and offensive to another person or persons in the workplace and which the individual knew or ought reasonably to have known would cause offence or harm. It comprises any objectionable act, comment or display that demeans, belittles or causes personal humiliation or embarrassment, or any act of intimidation or threat. It includes harassment within the meaning of the Canadian Human Rights Act(CHRA)._ 

Lots of grey area in there. He||, when I was learning about SHARP, the base harrassment officer in WATC said outright that you couldn‘t even have a flag or poster in your shack or PMQ that was offensive.


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## Staff (5 Jan 2004)

NDA article 129 is the catch-all for which you may be charged for just about anything someone wants to make stick. Most places, when you clear in you sign your name in two places. One to accept the quarters as is and the other is to affirm that you have read the base ROs and that you understand the terms under which you will be living on government property. Theoretically if you have NOT read these, as all soldiers are supposed to, you can be charged with derilection of duty. If you Have read them, and offend the terms stipulated, you are in contravention of a direct order, which may be charged under NDA article 83. Also, don‘t forget that NDA article 130 covers offences against other Canadian law.
If "other Canadian Law" says that you are prohibited from displaying offensive or derogatory items, there will be two or three charges being laid for the same offence. 

Read the regs, ROs and decide if they tell you that you can‘t do a thing. If it doesn‘t say "You can‘t", do it.

A little off topic, but one difference between alot of militaries (and some civilian organizations) is that some work on the principle that either "He didn‘t say I can‘t, so I can" or "He didn‘t say I can, so I can‘t". The first promotes some good initiative, but the secnd keeps you out of s***. You decide. Also remember that it is always easier to beg forgiveness than it is to beg permission.


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## finbar (7 Jan 2004)

Humint: I went to school in Alabama. University of Alabama in Huntsville - 1980. Back then the Confederate Battle flag was still quite popular. Back of pickup trucks, flying solo on private property next to the stars and stripes, etc ...The University did not tolerate any display of this flag. The state did not display it either. Recently, the state of Georgia also moved to not display this flag. Institutions and organizations have distanced themselves from this emblem and its past associations and connotations. 

However, to this day, this flag retains its nostalgia and place in the hearts of some folks south of the Mason Dixon line.

PS: Won‘t be down tonight. It‘s a bitter day in Stalingrad. Will try to break out next week behind a T-34!


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## axeman (7 Jan 2004)

And one time at band camp......
 In the CF mindset it does‘t matter if you overheard something that you did not find offensive, if anyone hears a joke and find it offensive the teller can be charged...


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## Spr.Earl (8 Jan 2004)

I for one have alway‘s given the carrot when deserved.
This was after a job well done!

Even though to day it‘s frowned upon giving booze as a reward to you subordinate‘s

All‘s I asked was after I gave them the Booze go hide and don‘t be Silly and a good Job Guy‘s!!
(I knew they had their own on average,if they didn‘t they weren‘t Sapper‘s)

Yes at time‘s P.C. is stupid but there time‘s when one must go by the guide line‘s
Note;Guide Line‘s!!

As to Skin book‘s,I was on a Road Move back with 1 C.E.R. to the Wack when we stopped in Blue River over night when the Kack about skin book‘s came out.

The O.C.(Young Lt.) gave a warning order for Bosnia then preceded to give us the new P.C. about Porno, Skin Book‘s i.e. not allowed in your Shack‘s,in the Field,same goes for Poster‘s!
So no porn at all!!

Any Question‘s?

So Cpl #$%%^ ask‘s!

So Sir,I can‘t have skin book‘s,poster‘s in my room,I‘m not allowed to screw my girl friend in my room?

Can I still screw my Buddy?

(As this was when the Alternate Life
Style was made leagal in the Force‘s,about 93/94?)

The Young Lt. had no answer but after regaining his composure said 

"I‘ll get back to you on that"

We all roared!!   

The poor little bugger was at a loss dealing with us old fart‘s!!
All Heavy Equipment Troop.


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## Enzo (9 Jan 2004)

SHARP was fun for me. In less than an hour after it ended I was in the NCO‘s office facing a charge from a peer for a joke I made during the SHARP class at his expense. He was offended that I made the joke and that people laughed at it (let‘s just say there was much truth and the timing was excellent). So, a choice was made. Did he want to file a formal charge. No. My MCpl went up one side of me. After the dressing down, my peer was asked if he was satisfied, which he was. And with no formal charge coming, I stood aside and then the MCpl went to town on him big time for making such a stupid play. I didn‘t mind the look of surprise on his face, but I was pissed for a long time. All he had to do was talk to me, I‘d have apologized without any issue at all before that. He had a difficult time with credibility after that for awhile. Platoon didn‘t take to well to that. Settling something in the shacks is preferable to paper in the office. If it‘s that serious, then it had better be worth it.


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