# The Ten Commandments of RMS Clerks



## Celticgirl (2 May 2012)

I don't take any credit for this one, but thought it was funny...RMS clerks in particular should enjoy it.   ;D


*THE TEN COMMANDMENTS OF RMS CLERKS *

In these times of downsizing, trade-merging and doing more with less, resulting in unrealistic expectations customers place on clerks, it's time for a fresh set of commandments. I'd love to see these etched into stone tablets, one for each which we could beat over the heads of customers breaking them. 

1) I AM THE CLERK HELPING YOU, THE ONE AVAILABLE AT THIS TIME. 

I don't care who helped you before and gave you benefits you weren't entitled to. Obviously you don't either, as you can't remember their name, rank or provide a general description of them, except they were a clerk. Get the gender right at least. They aren't here to help you now, I AM.

2) YOU SHALL MENTION NO OTHER FORMS OF PAYMENT BEFORE ME. 

My job (and that of my fellow-scribes) is to get you the most benefits you are entitled to. However, it is cost-effective and more time effective to pay you through a Direct Funds Transfer (DFT) on your claim and send the money right to your bank account. I don't care that you want that claim paid out in cash, because you don't want your old lady/man to know about your party money. Life sucks, get a helmet.

3) YOU SHALL NOT CONSIDER YOURSELF AN IDOL, GOD, DEITY OR OTHER ELEVATED BEING. 

You are not infallible. Nowhere in any applicable orders and/or regulations does it state "The Customer Is Always Right." Just because you "know" a guy at another base or unit getting a higher rate of Separation Expense than you doesn't make it true. A favored response to these ignorant assholes is to call their damn bluff: "Well then, please provide the applicable reference or written authority, so I'll know for next time." This shuts them up fast. Threatening to file a formal complaint with my chain of command is no threat at all, because if you're playing that card I'm already annoyed with you and want you to go away. 


4) YOU SHALL NOT MAKE WRONGFUL USE OF THE NAME OF THE COMMANDING OFFICER, MY BOSS, YOUR BOSS. 

You think I'm intimidated by you name-dropping some high ranking individual, or the fact you are a high-ranking individual? I know high-ranking people too. I talk to a lot more of them than you do. I am certain that they would rather keep me around than you. If it's a decision I know they can make but I can't, I'll call them for you. If you're asking the impossible, your calling upon a high authority will only result in all our time being wasted, the higher authority annoyed, and I'll tell you as much. 


5) REMEMBER THE ORDERLY ROOM HOURS, AND KEEP THEM HOLY. 

Don't be banging on the doors thirty minutes before we open, there's no clerks logged into the computer to check on your pay or to look something up for you. Unless it is an emergency, as decided by the Chief Clerk or CO, don't expect to be let in five minutes past closing, we're trying to clean up our backlog and figure out complicated shit to benefit you without a million interruptions. As for all of you piss-poor planners who make your screw-ups our emergency and hassle us for results incessantly and wonder when we don't respond immediately, Take the hint! Fail to plan, plan to fail. Give more advance notice. Provide what information is required and GTFO. 

6) HONOR WRITTEN POLICIES AND DIRECTIVES. 

Stop demanding that we research a benefit or directive for you, then argue and bitch that it was interpreted wrong if what we find is not what you like. This includes claim entitlements, tax deductions off of certain benefits. DO NOT threaten to go to a higher authority. We already did that when we sent a query to the Director of Benefits Compensation Administration (DCBA) and they informed us in proper military lingo that you can go and rub a lamp, and dream of all your wishes coming true.

7) YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT POWER-TRIPPING. 

We are a place that provides a service and that service is clerical. We are not lawyers, bankers or Notaries. There are reasons you have to pay for those services. Our objective is not to provide you with every opportunity to rake in as much money as you can during the course of your career, and turn every Temporary Duty (TD) into a profit making venture for yourself. If you incur long-distance charges because you had to phone from Vancouver to a clerk in Chilliwack regarding a question about your pay, you are not entitled to claim these long-distance charges as work expenses. There is no sense in appealing for sympathy. That is in the dictionary between "Shit" and "Syphilis."  Pay that 30-cent long distance charge, you cheap bastard.

8 ) YOU SHALL NOT STEAL. 

I can't believe it! This one's totally unaltered from the original. Fraud isn't smart; it's completely boneheaded, resulting in more red tape bureaucracy to prevent idiots like you from committing more fraud in the future. When you're caught, someone may decide to charge you, convene a summary trial or court martial. Fellow CF members and civilian employees, in addition to the media will have a field day at your expense. 

9) YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST THE CLERKS. 

Do not claim you were treated rudely just because we told you "no." Do not make up lies about how you were ill-treated. The chain of command knows better... after all, they work with us every day. If you screw up and did not follow instructions or gave the clerk the wrong ones, do not blame the clerk. We keep written and electronic records. If we screw up, we admit it and fix the problem. 

10) YOU SHALL NOT COVET ANOTHER'S EMPLOYEE'S OR CUSTOMER'S BENEFITS. 

Everyone's benefits are calculated based on their rank, incentive, trade and what ever allowances they are entitled to. You may not get Post Living Differential (PLD) Allowance. It's not as good of a perk as you think. It is a taxable benefit, which means you have more taxable income to declare at the end of the year. You already get free medical, dental, travel benefits and premiums for your family are subsidized. Work for an employer in the private sector and see how bad off you weren't. Not many employers can care less if you are transferred due to work reasons and are far away from your family and never see them again.


----------



## LineJumper (18 May 2012)

And all good reasons why the clerk at 1 Line Tp often was awarded 'Soldier of the year' 

;D


----------



## AmmoTech90 (18 May 2012)

How about some that provide some guidance to the clerks...after all the commandments came from higher (not to indicate I am higher, but clerks are no higher than other trades).

-You shall contact DCBA when the member requests it unless you have a previous direction from DCBA that relates to an *identical* query.

-You shall act professionally.  Do not ignore people that are standing at the counter so you can talk about the party last night.  That's what the smoking area is for.

-You shall execute policy, not create it.

-You shall take into account the fact that the inquiring member may have researched their query so don't treat them like an idiot.

-You shall follow-up with members when you tell them you will.

While there are still good clerks out there, the doing more with less whine you express in the beginning has resulted in a lot of bad clerks being promoted well beyond their competency level which has resulted in the silliness you posted.

<Married to a clerk for 16 years and she thinks most clerks are crap at their job and should get off their high horses>


----------



## aesop081 (18 May 2012)

"Thou shall treat other member's pay as if it were your own"


----------



## catalyst (18 May 2012)

'Thou shalt realize that just because you are on Class B and don't have to worry about a regular paycheque,  that Class A pay is not important' 

'Thou shalt realize that the CF is not a personal travel agency'



I have been fortunate to have had some solid clerks (and even got a chance to work as one for three months - wow....)


----------



## PMedMoe (19 May 2012)

Thou shalt take immediate action to recover monies from a member when *the member points out your mistake*.   :

Yep, got paid some SE for Jan that I wasn't entitled to.  Pointed it out to the IR clerks in March.  Nothing done yet........


----------



## aesop081 (19 May 2012)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Thou shalt take immediate action to recover monies from a member when *the member points out your mistake*.   :
> 
> Yep, got paid some SE for Jan that I wasn't entitled to.  Pointed it out to the IR clerks in March.  Nothing done yet........



But, but......Celtic Girl said:



			
				Celticgirl said:
			
		

> If we screw up, we admit it and fix the problem.



Yeah, right.


----------



## PMedMoe (19 May 2012)

Oh, what's even better is that they asked me for proof that I was on leave and TD in January......    :not-again:


----------



## Loachman (19 May 2012)

I'd not recommend waving those "Commandments" around in front of non-Clerks. Think red cape and bull.



			
				AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> Do not ignore people that are standing at the counter so you can talk about the party last night.



Ignoring people standing at a counter is the height of rudeness.

I do not mind waiting for service, as long as my presence has been acknowledged. A simple "We'll be with you in a moment, sir" will suffice.

Manners are important. And customers should be served with the same high standard of manners regardless of rank. A Private deserves no less service than the CDS.


----------



## aesop081 (19 May 2012)

Another one *for* clerks:

You are there to support us, not the other way around. If i don't have time to come a re-do a form that you lost because i'm going flying, you're just going to have to sit there and stew.


----------



## Biohazardxj (19 May 2012)

I am sure other trades have just as many bad apples.  However, I am a 28 year Reg Force clerk so I am not qualified to comment on the other trades.  

But as a clerk I can comment on mine.  Yes the trade has problems.  Mainly amalgamation, lack of experienced personnel who can teach,  promotions that come far too quickly, just to name a few.

So instead of whining about bad service, talk to the clerk and point out their shortcomings in a polite manner, if you have the rank.  If not talk with their supervisor or go through your own chain.  The only way to make a better trades person is to educate them. 

On the other hand, sometimes the customer can be their own worst enemy.


----------



## Jarnhamar (19 May 2012)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> 5) REMEMBER THE ORDERLY ROOM HOURS, AND KEEP THEM HOLY.
> 
> Don't be banging on the doors thirty minutes before we open, there's no clerks logged into the computer to check on your pay or to look something up for you. Unless it is an emergency, as decided by the Chief Clerk or CO, don't expect to be let in five minutes past closing, we're trying to clean up our backlog and figure out complicated shit to benefit you without a million interruptions. As for all of you piss-poor planners who make your screw-ups our emergency and hassle us for results incessantly and wonder when we don't respond immediately, Take the hint! Fail to plan, plan to fail. Give more advance notice. Provide what information is required and GTFO.



This one pisses me off.
Members of the CF are paid 24/7.  Not all of us have the luxury of a 9:30 to 1600 job.
Maybe we are going in 5 minutes past closing because our call sign just got IEDs outside the wire and we're leaving for HLTA the next day.
Some of OUR work days are 168 hours long.  What ever asshole came up with THIS comment didn't leave the wire.


----------



## Loachman (19 May 2012)

SGT-RMSCLK said:
			
		

> On the other hand, sometimes the customer can be their own worst enemy.



Agreed, and I fully sympathize with those who have to put up with them.

I have spoken to a few supervisors in the past. I have not had to do so often, though.


----------



## PMedMoe (19 May 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> What ever asshole came up with THIS comment didn't leave the wire.



Do we _really_ need to start this crap again?   :

Pretty sure they meant in a non-operational setting......


----------



## Jarnhamar (19 May 2012)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Do we _really_ need to start this crap again?   :
> 
> Pretty sure they meant in a non-operational setting......




Even non-operational, all manner of cf members from snake eating  infanteers to germ hunting p-meds (wink) keep non standard hours. It's not an "I left the wire I'm more important than everyone else" mind set but one that recognizes cf members don't just work 8 to 4.

If Pte smith bites his guts all day and his CoC only released him at 15:55 and he how's up at your counter at 16:09 sending him packing sans help is a dick move.

We should treat everything as if we are operational.


----------



## George Wallace (19 May 2012)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> 5) REMEMBER THE ORDERLY ROOM HOURS, AND KEEP THEM HOLY.
> 
> Don't be banging on the doors thirty minutes before we open, there's no clerks logged into the computer to check on your pay or to look something up for you. Unless it is an emergency, as decided by the Chief Clerk or CO, don't expect to be let in five minutes past closing, we're trying to clean up our backlog and figure out complicated crap to benefit you without a million interruptions. As for all of you piss-poor planners who make your screw-ups our emergency and hassle us for results incessantly and wonder when we don't respond immediately, Take the hint! Fail to plan, plan to fail. Give more advance notice. Provide what information is required and GTFO.



This one bothers me greatly.  

1.  I was at the Airport and ran into some problems with my booking.  It was closing on flight time, and I phoned my CC whom I knew was in the office at 0755 hrs (She arrives at 0700 to 0730 hrs daily).  I phoned all four numbers in the OR and she refused to pick up.  She also refuses to pick up during lunch while she sits at her desk.  She has no problems with leaving early though.  

2.  At the other end of the spectrum is the work-a-holic who phoned me at 0700 hrs on a Fri as I was leaving my house for my last day at the Regiment prior to a departure on Mon morning for Tour, to tell me I am not going.  Spent the whole day turning my Telephone, Cable, Power, etc. back on, and phoning Trenton who were loading my UAB on the plane at the moment I called.  

Respect your hours!.......It works both ways.....and we are not big Banks who have 'Banker's Hours'.........................Sorry.  Even the Banks have caught on to Customer Service.     Don't get me going on Clothing Stores.


----------



## aesop081 (19 May 2012)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> 2) YOU SHALL MENTION NO OTHER FORMS OF PAYMENT BEFORE ME.
> However, it is cost-effective and more time effective to pay you through a Direct Funds Transfer (DFT) on your claim and send the money right to your bank account.



Yup, always love seeing my "advance" deposited in my account, the day i return home.......lots of help that is.




> 4) YOU SHALL NOT MAKE WRONGFUL USE OF THE NAME OF THE COMMANDING OFFICER, MY BOSS, YOUR BOSS.
> 
> * I know high-ranking people too. I talk to a lot more of them than you do.*



You want to bet on that ?



> I am certain that they would rather keep me around than you.



Not the least bit pretentious. I'm sure clerks know how to fly airplanes, drive tanks and fire artillery guns ( you know, a unit's actual purpose). I'm quite confident that my CO will keep me around no matter what you say.


----------



## Sythen (19 May 2012)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Do we _really_ need to start this crap again?   :
> 
> Pretty sure they meant in a non-operational setting......



Best example I can think of from my personal experience is spending 16 days in the field, doing IDCC. Get back on a Friday afternoon, and need to get some paper work done. Its around 13:30 when I arrive at the BOR counter, 3 clerks at their desks doing clerky things and am completely ignored for about 5 mins. Not being a total prick, and understanding they can't just drop everything when someone walks up to the counter I give them that 5 mins. I then say hello, thinking its possible they just didn't see me. I am immediately told by one of them that they are finishing up because they only work half days on Friday and I need to come back on Monday and that maybe I should think about cleaning myself up before I come back. For you non-Combat Arms trades, 16 days in the field usually means you smell like shit. Being a Pte at the time, I just sorta walked away.

Now I am fully on board with people getting half days, especially since the battalion was DAGing at the time and the clerks were probably working very hard. With that in mind, even if you've worked 12 hours a day for the last month or so, you have not put in as many hours as I have by even a long shot cause while you're doing the paper work, even when I am not doing things like IDCC, I am doing Ex Royal Gun Fighter, etc to get all the "checks in boxes" for my work up training.

I've noticed the attitude on this board being that 'everyone works hard, Infantry aren't special'. Sure, its true that everyone works hard and deserves some time off. The difference being in the Infantry, your time off comes after ALL work is done. Not when you feel like taking some time.

My little mini-rant I guess, but the attitude of some members of this board really highlights the massive disparity between field soldiers, and garrison troops. I could also give examples of foolishness like techs taking a day off so we need to wait for equipment replacements/repairs "because they put in a lot of hours this month" in Afghanistan.


----------



## PMedMoe (19 May 2012)

I just meant the actual "outside the wire" comment.  Geez, people, don't get your knickers in a knot.   :


----------



## Sythen (19 May 2012)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I just meant the actual "outside the wire" comment.  Geez, people, don't get your knickers in a knot.   :



The "outside the wire" comment was probably pretty accurate.


----------



## Jarnhamar (19 May 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Not the least bit pretentious. I'm sure clerks know how to fly airplanes, drive tanks and fire artillery guns ( you know, a unit's actual purpose). I'm quite confident that my CO will keep me around no matter what you say.



I didn't even catch that. Ya pretty pretentious for sure.


----------



## mariomike (19 May 2012)

> Nowhere in any applicable orders and/or regulations does it state "The Customer Is Always Right."



Reminds me of another old saying, "The customer is not always right, but they are _always_ the customer."


----------



## aesop081 (19 May 2012)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> 5) REMEMBER THE ORDERLY ROOM HOURS, AND KEEP THEM HOLY.
> 
> Don't be banging on the doors thirty minutes before we open, there's no clerks logged into the computer to check on your pay or to look something up for you. Unless it is an emergency, as decided by the Chief Clerk or CO, don't expect to be let in five minutes past closing, we're trying to clean up our backlog and figure out complicated crap to benefit you without a million interruptions. As for all of you piss-poor planners who make your screw-ups our emergency and hassle us for results incessantly and wonder when we don't respond immediately, Take the hint! Fail to plan, plan to fail. Give more advance notice. Provide what information is required and GTFO.



Yes i am banging on the door 30 minutes before opening or an hour after closing. I know you are not logged in but i don't give a s**t. It is an emergency and no, i don't care of you agree. My cell phone went off 30 minutes ago and now i am going away for 3 weeks. I know you do not have f*****g clue what living like that is like. We're doing more with less, f*****g do the same. Yes i know, i am taking off this morning and i didn't come get my claim yesterday like your witty email requested. That's because i landed at 8pm last night from the previous TD. I'm giving you all the notice i got now get to f*****g work.


----------



## ballz (19 May 2012)

I get frustrated a lot like most people, and I try to give clerks the benefit of a doubt. After all, as a ULO student I had all day for the most part, and it seemed like the clerks were dealing with so much at once that their bucket was just full with different scenarios / people / claims / rules / etc, so I really don't mind that I had to tell the same person every day I was down there why I was standing at the counter, and had to go over all the details of something again and again, despite that they had emailed me the day before and told me to come down at that time and that we would finish "x" paperwork. It seemed like the least I could do.

And then there are some things which I can't find, no matter how hard I try, any "doubt" to give the benefit of, like having 4 months notice of a promotion and completely dropping the ball on it, getting it done not just late, but literally "just in the nick of time (literally got done so late on the day that I was supposed to leave that I had to stay an extra night... and it still only got done because some things got circumvented)" and me getting my proper pay 2 - 3 months late (well, I'm still waiting, so I'm assuming I'll have it in that time), which is putting some serious strain on my credit card, that there is just no excuse for.



			
				Celticgirl said:
			
		

> I don't take any credit for this one, but thought it was funny...RMS clerks in particular should enjoy it.   ;D



And if I were a clerk, I sure wouldn't be forwarding this little "gem" around, not even to fellow clerks, much less to the members that have to bear the burden of admin errors. I can laugh at almost anything (and I was planning on it when I read this), but in reading this I get the impression that this wasn't written by a bored clerk with a good sense of humour, but probably one of the more incompetent ones that most of us complain about, who was just feeling particularly sour that day and wanted to b*tch and moan about how tough they've got it.

Some of it actually shows how out of touch some are, such as thinking members want a cheque/cash for their advance instead of DFT because they want to "hide their party money from their old lady." As CDN Aviator mentioned, sometimes people want their cash advance _in advance_ because that's the whole friggin point.


----------



## OldSolduer (19 May 2012)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Reminds me of another old saying, "The customer is not always right, but they are _always_ the customer."



First of all, soldiers aren't customers, they're soldiers. Soldiers sometimes need assistance outside normal office hours.

Secondly, RMS clerks wear the same uniform as all the rest of us. Corporal RMS clerks are liable to the same disciplinary procedures as the rest of us. And soldiers coming to the RMS clerks for help are bound to treat RMS clerks with the same respect as everyone else.

It works both ways troops.


----------



## aesop081 (19 May 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> It works both ways troops.



Absolutely.

We're all on the same team.


----------



## mariomike (19 May 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> First of all, soldiers aren't customers, they're soldiers.



I was quoting the original post.


> I'd love to see these etched into stone tablets, one for each which we could beat over the heads of customers breaking them.



Edit to add:


> 10) YOU SHALL NOT COVET ANOTHER'S EMPLOYEE'S OR CUSTOMER'S BENEFITS.


----------



## aesop081 (19 May 2012)

How about this one:

"Thou shalt not lose a member's paperwork"

I am here to respond to your nastygram saying i did not fill out and submit paperwork X. I in fact, completed paperwork X and gave it to you last monday, as originally requested. What's that ? You can't find it ? Well, that was protected B so come with me and explain to my boss, the CO, your boss, what your story is. I'm sure he will be impressed.


----------



## aesop081 (19 May 2012)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> *THE TEN COMMANDMENTS OF RMS CLERKS *
> doing more with less,



You don't do more with less, you cut hours.




> 1) I AM THE CLERK HELPING YOU, THE ONE AVAILABLE AT THIS TIME.
> 
> I don't care who helped you before and gave you benefits you weren't entitled to. Obviously you don't either, as you can't remember their name, rank or provide a general description of them, except they were a clerk. Get the gender right at least. They aren't here to help you now, I AM.



I'm sorry. It is true that i do not remember names all that well. You see, you are the 6th clerk that's worked here in the last 2 APS. In the mean time, you guys rotate between jobs on base for you training faster than a merry-go-round so i cant keep track of who's who. I'm rarely here at home base so i don't see you guys that often. You know what that's like right ?




> 3) YOU SHALL NOT CONSIDER YOURSELF AN IDOL, GOD, DEITY OR OTHER ELEVATED BEING.
> 
> because if you're playing that card I'm already annoyed with you and want you to go away.



...and that's where "assholes" like me call your bluff and bring you regulations that state that, yes, i am entitled to X. You are not infallible either. I will also call your  bluff and take formal action to rectify your shortcomings. I'm a professional and i know how to do that.




> 6) HONOR WRITTEN POLICIES AND DIRECTIVES.
> We already did that when we sent a query to the *Director of Benefits Compensation Administration (DCBA)* and they informed us in proper military lingo that you can go and rub a lamp, and dream of all your wishes coming true.



Sure. Please provide me with said correspondence so i can pass that information on. Oh, what's that ? You don't have it ? Yeah, that's what i thought. Maybe you should honour what DCBA actually stands for.......




> 10) YOU SHALL NOT COVET ANOTHER'S EMPLOYEE'S OR CUSTOMER'S BENEFITS.
> 
> Work for an employer in the private sector and see how bad off you weren't.



Same to you. Go work in private industry and see if the company lets you shut the office down for half a day to get your paperwork caught up.


I apologise, i realy should have done all these in one single post.


----------



## Strike (19 May 2012)

Gonna have to agree with everyone's arguments re: hours (and add an example of my own).  I recall when I was at a flying unit having to work a week of days and a week of nights.  In the summer that might mean that I wasn't coming in until 1700 or 1800 at night because I would be there until 0400 the next morning.

Try sorting out any type of claim or paperwork then.

After numerous complaints about having to mess up crew days to go sign stuff in the OR, a rotation was made to have at least one clerk in until 2000 hrs every day.

Yes, we understand that you have hours, but remember, your job is to support the operators, who are the backbone of the CF, and who don't keep regular hours.


----------



## Loachman (19 May 2012)

Did somebody say something about red capes and bulls?


----------



## LineJumper (19 May 2012)

Clerks, pleaase see reply #1.

Enough said.

Road Warriors really are quite simple.

Edit- This is in RadChat


----------



## Pieman (19 May 2012)

Not to discredit some of the problems outlined here. However I generally operated under the following guidelines:

Always stay one step ahead of the bureaucrat and you will minimize your problems.  

-Never throw anything out. 
-Make copies of every form you hand in. 
-Make sure to get things squared away well in advance. 
-Keep an eye on your pay and make an appointment to address it.

Don't have normal office hours? Make an appointment ahead of time if you need something done. (They were always willing to accommodate me) 

Sometimes things with short notice come up. The clerks were always happy to help me because they knew I put an effort in to making sure I did my part of the job correctly.


----------



## aesop081 (19 May 2012)

Pieman said:
			
		

> -Make copies of every form you hand in.



That is something that increases your personal convenience as you don't have to fill out a new one. What it doesn't do is fix the problem. Paperwork is not being handled properly. There is also now a document that is floating around, possibly being where it shouldn't be, possibly being seen by someone who shouldn't.


----------



## George Wallace (19 May 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> That is something that increases your personal convenience as you don't have to fill out a new one. What it doesn't do is fix the problem. Paperwork is not being handled properly. There is also now a document that is floating around, possibly being where it shouldn't be, possibly being seen by someone who shouldn't.



I always recommend that people keep copies of all their docs; pay, medical, CF Expres, Posting msgs, Claims, etc.  Even email chains.   Create your own 'Shadow Pers Files' at home.  That way when there is a screw up or lost doc, you have a back up or proof that you did what you were supposed to.  I have not relied on the "Read" and "Open" option in email in sometime, but have had to use it to track if people were reading important emails that seemed not to be getting actioned.  I then had proof that the intended person had indeed read it.

If you do not keep your own records, you have no leg to stand on in truly screwed up cases.  It can be considered evidence/proof that you have acted to the best of your authorized abilities.   It can also assist you in filling out your Security Clearances, Claims, Career Progression, Courses that may be recognized or accredited outside the CF, building your resume/CV, etc.


----------



## Disenchantedsailor (19 May 2012)

I have one 

Though shalt finalize claims and have them paid in a reasonable period.  NO! 6 Months is not a reasonable time period.  7-10 days is (on a side note in private industry they are usually paid out on the next closest pay run)


----------



## aesop081 (19 May 2012)

Not_So_Arty_Newbie said:
			
		

> I have one
> 
> Though shalt finalize claims and have them paid in a reasonable period.  NO! 6 Months is not a reasonable time period.  7-10 days is (on a side note in private industry they are usually paid out on the next closest pay run)



I know it happens but, i have to give credit where credit is due, it has happened to me only once. Clerks in my units have been very good in this regard.


----------



## Disenchantedsailor (19 May 2012)

Soldiers in my sub-unit have lots of money tied up in 3-6 month old claims. (exact amount left out on purpose)


----------



## dapaterson (19 May 2012)

Not_So_Arty_Newbie said:
			
		

> Soldiers in my sub-unit have lots of money tied up in 3-6 month old claims. (exact amount left out on purpose)



That's why God invented the chain of command.  Get details (including the "next week" emails that the clerks sent, or the emails sent that were deleted unread) and send them to the OC who will, in turn, speak to the Adjt and/or CO about the problem; one of those two will get the OR working 12 hours a day, 6 days a week until the backlog is sorted.


----------



## Pieman (19 May 2012)

> Create your own 'Shadow Pers Files' at home.  That way when there is a screw up or lost doc, you have a back up or proof that you did what you were supposed to.



For sure. When I was getting out, they could not even find my pers file at all.  I had to release without it. This included all the copies of my perfomance evaluations, and whatever else they keep in there. Thankfully I got copies of everything, so there is no real problem. Otherwise, if I were to go back I'm not sure If I'd be able to prove I had any of my driver qualifications etc.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (19 May 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> First of all, soldiers aren't customers, they're soldiers. Soldiers sometimes need assistance outside normal office hours.



I am glad someone else noticed this and said something.  I, for one, despise this "customer" BS.  I am a customer at my VW dealer, or MEC or a restaurant.

The civilianization of the CF has gone to far, with words like 'customer' and 'supervisor', just to name 2 of them very quickly.


----------



## LineJumper (19 May 2012)

op:


----------



## Jarnhamar (19 May 2012)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I am glad someone else noticed this and said something.  I, for one, despise this "customer" BS.  I am a customer at my VW dealer, or MEC or a restaurant.
> 
> The civilianization of the CF has gone to far, with words like 'customer' and 'supervisor', just to name 2 of them very quickly.



There you go again leading change


----------



## OldSolduer (19 May 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> There you go again leading change



Well at least he's leading......not managing....


----------



## mariomike (19 May 2012)

> I, for one, despise this "customer" BS.



I was curious if use of the word is official.
They use it in the first sentence, and highlight it in the second:
http://www.borden.forces.gc.ca/index-eng.asp


----------



## OldSolduer (19 May 2012)

When I freer to the military people in our organizations, I refuse to use the words "client" , "customers" or anything else civilian. You are soldiers, sailors and airmen, and not my "client".

We need to get back to this mindset WRT "customers" and "clients".


----------



## Celticgirl (20 May 2012)

Wow, I did not expect this volume of responses, let alone such ferocity.    Clearly, some members have issues with their ORs.

FYI, folks:  I posted this because I thought it was cute/funny, albeit in an exaggerated way.  I didn't write it and don't agree with all of it.  It just gave me a chuckle, so I passed it on.

I have not been in the clerk trade for very long (and anyone who has followed my story knows this is not where I started out), but I do feel it necessary at this point to say that there ARE some of us who take our jobs seriously and do make an effort to be as courteous and efficient as possible.  I can assure you that I try to put myself in every member's shoes when doing my job and try to get them the most/best available within the regulations possible and will go to bat for them when I think it is warranted.  Ultimately, it is someone a lot higher than me on the food chain who says yay or nay.   Do not shoot the messenger.   

Cdn Aviator, I personally haven't lost any member's paperwork yet, but I am sure that it has happened plenty of times to plenty of members.  There are duds in any trade.  Please take George Wallace's advice and keep copies of absolutely everything.  It is YOUR career, after all.   8)  I always encourage members to keep copies of submitted paperwork and even go so far as to make them a copy myself.

With regards to the complaints about clerk hours, I can only tell you that at my unit, we have a 'duty clerk' at all times (24/7 with a duty phone and duty book) and I have absolutely been called on evenings, weekends, and yes, even at 0300 hrs, to help a member with something.  One member was sweet enough to send a nice email to my Admin O praising me up for my assistance, and I certainly appreciated the recognition, although it wasn't necessary...I was just doing my job.  Also, when our window closes, we still get plenty of knocks at the door and have yet to turn anyone away (I even joked with a SAR tech ldr that I had better help him out if I hoped to be rescued at some point in the future...haha ).  My fellow clerks and I have all stayed late at various times to work on things for members and we have come in early to make sure something was arranged for someone when there was a short time limit.  I can't speak for all clerks and all units, but please don't paint us all as uncaring, clock-out-as-soon-as-I-can types.  Some of us do give a shyte.  No matter how much you pizz us off sometimes.  

One last thing:  Jim Seggie, for the few years I have been doing this, I have always heard (and used) the word "customer".  Many of us clerks do believe we are in customer service and that the other members are customers that we are "serving".  Servitus Nulli Secundus!

*Cheers to all of you who are striving to do your best at whatever your trade is!!!! * :cheers:


----------



## OldSolduer (20 May 2012)

Soldiers are soldiers....you serve them, however they are soldiers. They are not purchasing goods or services  from you; they are ther because they need your particular skill in administration.


----------



## Celticgirl (20 May 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Soldiers are soldiers....you serve them, however they are soldiers. They are not purchasing goods or services  from you; they are ther because they need your particular skill in administration.



Very true.  I serve them and their admin/fin needs, therefore they are my 'customers'.   I am a soldier, too, and usually the other members are cognizant of that (except maybe on civvy Fridays).  

One additional point I forgot to mention above ~ I agree that it is crappy to make someone wait at the counter while you dish about your past or future weekend plans, etc.  I've been victim to it myself and so I know how it feels and therefore strive to never let anyone wait more than a few seconds at 'our' counter regardless of how busy I am.  Rude is rude.  Totally agree on that point!


----------



## Celticgirl (20 May 2012)

ballz said:
			
		

> And if I were a clerk, I sure wouldn't be forwarding this little "gem" around, not even to fellow clerks, much less to the members that have to bear the burden of admin errors.



Well, ballz, I guess I can live with your low esteem of me.  After all, you have no idea what I am like in real life, both personally and professionally, and therefore, your opinion of what I 'forward' isn't going to pop my happy balloon.    Have a nice day.


----------



## Good2Golf (20 May 2012)

mariomike said:
			
		

> I was curious if use of the word is official.
> They use it in the first sentence, and highlight it in the second:
> http://www.borden.forces.gc.ca/index-eng.asp




Perhaps part of the issue may be the emphasis on a cost-effective, vice operational mindset of the Base where CF administration is taught?



> The mission of Canadian Forces Base Borden (CFB Borden) is to support all of its customers in the most *cost effective manner* to enable them to accomplish their missions.



_Cost effective_ may not necessarily equate to _operationally effective_, a level of effectiveness expected of operational units or elements of the CF.

I have been fortunate in my career as I have generally had excellent experiences with admin support.  That said, the exceptions were not any more frequent than the exceptions to excellent MSE support, or Supply support, etc...  

Furthermore, as the average experience of CF members becomes significantly reduced at respective ranks across the board, we may find ourselves frustrated as we expect levels of knowledge and experience that no longer exist.  The impact of this phenomenon may be particularly frustrating for CF members who continue to work in operational environments that are no more forgiving now than they were when experience levels CF-wide in the past were notably higher.  

Yes, I would like to think that members' frustrations would be held in check professionally when communicating with clerical support personnel; however, I would equally expect that those providing clerical support to other CF members would be mindful of the operational perspective (and real-life dangers) that exists beyond the confines of their UOR/BOR cubicle.

Regards
G2G

p.s. For some reason, this thread reminds me of the time I got some funny looks from my passengers during a pre-flight briefing I gave prior to a familiarization flight.  The passengers included a number of RMS clerks.  During the briefing, I told all the passengers that, even though I was the aircraft captain, each and every passenger that day was responsible and accountable for the safe conduct of the flight, even in an emergency situation.  A bunch of hands shot up as I fielded questions and statements about how that wasn't fair, or realistic, or appropriate.  I asked, "Why isn't it fair?  You're all benefitting from the flight."  They told me they weren't trained how to fly a helicopter, especially just a few feet over the ground at over 200 km/h.  I told them, "Of course it's fair.  It's no different than when clerks tell me that I'm responsible for all aspects of my pay!  I'm still waiting for that QL3 pay course and access to CFPS that I asked the BAdmO for."  They all got a chuckle out of the (semi)joke and I never had any problems with that BOR...


----------



## Celticgirl (20 May 2012)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> I would equally expect that those providing clerical support to other CF members would be mindful of the operational perspective (and real-life dangers) that exists beyond the confines of their UOR/BOR cubicle.



Absolutely agree, G2G.  I'll give a real-life example from this past week (my last post on this tonight as it is getting to be waaay past my bedtime ).  I was booking flights for pilots going to the UK for a week of sim trg.  I had the option of booking a direct red-eye flight (arriving the day prior to the start of the taskings) or a $300 p.p. cheaper flight option that included a couple of U.S. connectors and would mean the mbrs would be travelling for an entire day and then some.  Although the regs say to always go with 'most economical', I had no qualms telling the AMEX operator that I was not going to subject the mbrs to that amount of time and tribulation prior to a tasking in which they needed to be mentally alert.  I booked the red-eye flight.  If an auditor ever questions me about it (they can call AMEX and find out who was the booking agent and what flights were offered and declined), I will also have no qualms telling them the same thing, even if they disagree with my logic.  I have no doubt that the pilots in question will perform better with the flight I booked them than with the lower-fare alternative, and I will sleep well knowing I did what I could to assist them in their operational role.  Not every TD has this requirement, of course, and the most economical means is still what we always shoot for...but we are a SUPPORT trade and that is absolutely what we should be doing.

Besides, it's not like I got them first class tickets with hot towelettes and caviar appetizers.   ;D


----------



## Loachman (20 May 2012)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> I can't speak for all clerks and all units, but please don't paint us all as uncaring, clock-out-as-soon-as-I-can types.  Some of us do give a shyte.



Yes, but like any readily-identifiable group, you get the blame for your duds.

I have two Clerks working for me. Both are brilliant, especially my Sergeant, and do stuff far beyond the boundaries of their trade, and well past official quitting time most days. I could not function without them.


----------



## ballz (20 May 2012)

EDIT:

Getting off track. Mods, please feel free to delete this.


----------



## Sythen (20 May 2012)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> Besides, it's not like I got them first class tickets with hot towelettes and caviar appetizers.   ;D



But they're air force! How did they survive without?  

Jokes  >


----------



## PuckChaser (20 May 2012)

ballz said:
			
		

> EDIT:
> 
> Getting off track. Mods, please feel free to delete this.



Its in Radio Chatter, this is where shenanigans posts are supposed to happen...


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 May 2012)

I've found in the reserves if your claim is taking too long you can get creative- ie use your obscene amount of charm to convince the clerks civilian friend to lie to the clerk and pretend you owe her (civilian) money so she bitches at the clerk to speed up the claim so she can get 'her' money via you getting paid with the claim.  It's funny how a claim in waiting for 7 months can get processed in under a week.  

My current clerk is phenomenal and at least twice a week I drop by his office and ask him if I can buy him a coffee or snack as a thank you for the great work he's doing at such a thankless job.


I think it's safe to say whoever came up with these 10 commandments had their head up their ass and just butt hurt over it.


----------



## TN2IC (20 May 2012)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> therefore they are my 'customers'.



And this is why I want out of the Logistics branch. It's all numbers and blowing sunshine up "customers"  butts. I never "care" for it, hints the OT in the future. I'll do my job now. 


Just blows my mind with the Empire in Ottawa enforces.

"Do you have a fin code?"
"No, you can't have a car"
"Your 404's is expired"
"Yup, I drive around in circles all day."
"No we shut down at 1530hr, not 1445hr" 
"You are no longer qualified on such vehicle.."
etc..


And then the MDO's get the nice highway runs with over time. And I get a local "drunk bus" runs over the week end.

Not all Logistics trades are Monday-Friday deal. And then no block leave in my trade/unit.

Oh The RCR has block leave. Guess where I'm going? 
Yeah, it's time for an OT.  ;D


----------



## Monsoon (20 May 2012)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> Although the regs say to always go with 'most economical', I had no qualms telling the AMEX operator that I was not going to subject the mbrs to that amount of time and tribulation prior to a tasking in which they needed to be mentally alert.  I booked the red-eye flight.


Actually, here's what "the regs" (CFTDTIs) say about international air travel (s8.30):



> (2) (Members) Subject to paragraph 8.20(2) (Selection), a member — who is not a senior
> officer — is:
> 
> (a) in respect of a flight or series of flights in which the total travelling time — from takeoff at the first airport to landing at the last airport — is *nine or more hours without an overnight stay during those hours, entitled both to travel in business class* and to be reimbursed for actual and reasonable expenses for that travel; and
> ...



If you search "most economical" in CFTDTIs, you'll find it occurs exactly once, and is not in any way a description how modes of travel are to be selected. Now of course subordinate HQs and units always like to tack the "most economical means" provision into their joining instructions, but you can safely dismiss this as BS. The words can be read to mean one of two things:

1 - As a synonym for "cheapest", in which case the "most economical" means of transport would always be to force people to hitchhike or ride on tramp steamers. This is obviously not the correct interpretation; or

2 - To mean, "least expensive, given all other operational considerations and applicable regulations". The applicable regulations are CFTDTIs, which are set by DCBA and based on the Treasury Board Travel Directive that governs all travel in the federal government. No subordinate HQ or unit can amend or deny these mandated travel benefits, any more than they can specify "member to be paid at 50% of salary for duration of TD" in the joining instructions either.

In your example, you actually followed the regulations to the letter and saved the CF money by booking travel for the members on the shorter international route, thus getting around the need to book them on business class. I don't blame you for not knowing about how these regulations should be read (many quite senior clerks don't know it either), but you need to understand the benefits members are entitled to if you're going to allocate them correctly.


----------



## SupersonicMax (20 May 2012)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> 4) YOU SHALL NOT MAKE WRONGFUL USE OF THE NAME OF THE COMMANDING OFFICER, MY BOSS, YOUR BOSS.
> 
> I am certain that they would rather keep me around than you.



Really?



			
				Celticgirl said:
			
		

> 5) REMEMBER THE ORDERLY ROOM HOURS, AND KEEP THEM HOLY.
> 
> Don't be banging on the doors thirty minutes before we open, there's no clerks logged into the computer to check on your pay or to look something up for you. Unless it is an emergency, as decided by the Chief Clerk or CO, don't expect to be let in five minutes past closing, we're trying to clean up our backlog and figure out complicated crap to benefit you without a million interruptions. As for all of you piss-poor planners who make your screw-ups our emergency and hassle us for results incessantly and wonder when we don't respond immediately, Take the hint! Fail to plan, plan to fail. Give more advance notice. Provide what information is required and GTFO.



I'll caveat my comment by saying that our unit has the best OR in the entire CF.  I am not kidding.

If/When I am a CO, it will be that the OR follows the operation's schedule. If we are night flying, OR the be manned from 3hrs before the first launch to 2 hrs after the last landing.  Operations should not be accommodating support.  I have issues with the tail wagging the dog.

Reminds me of an anecdote...  When in Trapani last year, the OR had a sign: "OR Hours of Operations: 0900-1100 AND 1300-1500. Closed Sunday".  Well, doing combat operations at any time of the day, you may not be around during those times, especially if you are on a night schedule.

We put on our Mission Planning door: "CF-18 Operations: 0000-2359. Monday to Sunday".  They did not like that...


----------



## smale436 (20 May 2012)

I couldn't agree more with you on the issue in Trapani with the MSF that was initally in theatre. I'm not sure when you where there or who you are, although I likely was the start crew on your jet at one point and I remember every 425 pilot who was there, but when the MSF from Winnipeg arrived in September there was a 200% turnaround in service at the OR. After a week of reduced hours to catch up on the workload left unfinished upon their arrival, they immediately instituted a policy of being open 9-4 every day. They would always answer the door after they closed for the day to let personnel acquire money when they needed it in an emergency. (As many of us techs could not make it there due to our midnight shifts) I understand there were some tough times there when the camp first got set up in March, but the service provided there from May when I arrived there until September when the Winnipeg crowd arrived was disgraceful to the people working 14 hours a day 6 days a week making those missions happen.

     I remember when, after arriving 2 minutes after the OR closed for lunch and having been unsuccessful at obtaining funds the previous 3 days due to the OR itself being out of money, being told by the no-hook Private that "I will allow it this time but if you come again when this door is closed you will have to wait until tomorrow." Thankfully our CO was walking by as this happened and things started to change rather promptly.


----------



## armyvern (20 May 2012)

Leading Change for suggesting we are not "Customers" and that "Customers" is somehow a new phenomena due to the "civilianization" of the CF??

Not quite.

My father worked in Customer Services as a Sgt ... in the early 80s. Being called a "customer" instead of a "client" means diddly squat in the CF world. The term has been around for decades, the provision of services hasn't changed ... customer services still does what it always has --- despite the "civilianization" of the CF.

Really?? You actually think renaming "Customer Services" to "Client Services" is important and is going to change what soldiers receive from that section or how they are treated? It's unimportant. What IS important and what will actually lead change is getting rid of the "holier-than-thou" attitude that is inherent in the "Commandments" stated in the original post. Something tells me the attitude of the writer would have been obvious to the customer he was peering down his nose at while they awaited service. Might very well explain why that clerk seemed to experience some shitty attitude right f'n back at him/her. Funny that. Respect begets respect. Obviously the writer didn't get much ---- perfect!


----------



## armyvern (20 May 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Even non-operational, all manner of cf members from snake eating  infanteers to germ hunting p-meds (wink) keep non standard hours. It's not an "I left the wire I'm more important than everyone else" mind set but one that recognizes cf members don't just work 8 to 4.
> 
> If Pte smith bites his guts all day and his CoC only released him at 15:55 and he how's up at your counter at 16:09 sending him packing sans help is a dick move.
> 
> We should treat everything as if we are operational.



I've always found that a simple phone call to the closed section requesting them to open the doors to provide service to myself or one of my troops in situations occurring 'after 1500, but before 1600" has resulted in the door being opened every time with no complaints from either side.

After 1600hrs ... a call to the duty clerk has resulted in mbr receiving services.

Many a time, at clothing stores, I recd calls from the supervisors of troops asking to send someone over because they had just returned from the field and required replacement kit etc before the morning; it was never an issue for myself or my staff. I think the problem in the "Commandments" writer's attitude is that they seem to erroneously believe that "lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine" is actually a valid statement. One can not plan a 2000hrs evening before return with an 0500hrs departure the next day. One can not plan that kit would be lost/destroyed in the field and require immediate replacement as troop IS in the field. 

If it were so, those DUTY cell numbers would not exist. [sarcasm] Perhaps the writer believes that DUTY numbers are for personal use vice DUTY requirements? [/end sarcasm]


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 May 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Leading Change for suggesting we are not "Customers" and that "Customers" is somehow a new phenomena due to the "civilianization" of the CF??
> 
> Not quite.



i actually have NO clue what leading change mean- it just sounds funny to me so I used it sarcastically.





			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I've always found that a simple phone call to the closed section requesting them to open the doors to provide service to myself or one of my troops in situations occurring 'after 1500, but before 1600" has resulted in the door being opened every time with no complaints from either side.
> 
> After 1600hrs ... a call to the duty clerk has resulted in mbr receiving services.
> 
> ...



Army.ca seems to attract people who "get it".


Just something interesting.
On TF0306 the support from support trades was pretty bad.  "It's 1605 we closed at 1600" was the standard. On TF0308 someone decided all the deployed CF pers in KAF would take a trip outside the wire- I was told it was intended to garner some sympathy for the field guys.  Now most of the time the convoys got from point A to point B without incident and I'm not certain THIS was the reason for it (going outside the wire) but the amount of support (and how we were delt with by) clothing, clerks etc.. was 100% better I felt.


----------



## ModlrMike (20 May 2012)

I recollect as the Clinic WO in Shilo that I had to change the mindset of the troops as one of my first tasks. There was a sentiment that folks arriving outside of posted hours were an inconvenience to be barely tolerated. It took me a year, but I finally managed to instill the perspective that the most important person in any interaction was the "customer". Things improved greatly from there, and there was little bitching about services at the MIR from then on.

The primary role of Service Support is wait........ service support. All of us in this area need to realize that not everyone has the luxury of leaving their workplace a lunch or coffee to get little things done. They can't ask the WO if they can go to the BOR to get something sorted out during "working hours". They can't have tomorrow off (often gratis) because they have appointments. There's no denying that duty pers are inconvenienced by call backs, that's human nature; but it's our DUTY to provide service to those who need it. Just the same, it doesn't excuse some f&%$knuckle with six weeks notice discovering he doesn't have a copy of his medical the morning he's leaving for course.

I would hope that the increase in op tempo over the last 10 years has improved things at the CDU/MIR, but I'm no longer involved with front line medical care, so I don't know. With large numbers of medics having spent their entire tour(s) outside the wire, one would think they have a new appreciation for the average "customer" now.


----------



## brihard (20 May 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> ie use your obscene amount of charm



Whoah, whoah whoah. WHOAH. I call shenanigans, right there.

Sorry buddy, but I know you and 'charming' is not among your many qualities.  ;D


----------



## Fusilier (20 Jun 2012)

I've been off line here for some time and it discourages me that so many people feel the way they do about their clerical staff.  I have to agree with Celtic girl that not all clerks are the same.  I have 27 years of both Reserve and Regular force service.  Upon component transfer to the Reg F I was immediately posted to an infantry unit and stayed with them eleven years, every exercise, domestic and international deployment, and have remained with high tempo operational units since that time.
I went from Cpl Company Clerk to Chief clerk, I have tours to Kosovo, Bosnia; and two tours to Afghanistan both as chief clerk of an infantry BG and the JTF HQ - I have been outside the wire.  I have lost many friends throughout my career and have pushed my grief away in order to do my utmost to ensure that my part, the admin part was done quickly and accurately in order to support the ones left behind.  I gave up much of my time with my own family, staying long hours after spending the day training with the troops for missions spending my nights working on the soldiers (customers) administration to ensure they were all GTG to deploy.  
I am a chief clerk, I am responsible for the pay and administration for all members of my unit.  I am responsible for the proper training and mentoring of my staff, I am responsible to ensure my staff are not bullied, over tasked and burnt out.  However, my priority and the priority of my staff is the troops first and formost.  I am nearing the end of my career and doing the best I can to pass on not just trade knowledge to my clerks but to instil a sense of responsibility and ownership in regards to administering troops.  It's not perfect; I'm burned out.
Jim Seggie, I was your clerk in A Coy and Cbt Sp - sorry buddy but yes you were a soldier but you were also a customer seeking services from me and which I provided and on the many exercises etc I was rarely behind a desk but out with you guys trying to soldier.  I'm disappointed that you can not get past minor terminology.  
The original post was meant to be amusing, it is and should be taken with a grain of salt.  It also could apply to many other trades within the CF.  
Those of you who have issues with your clerical staff - talk to them about it, talk to their supervisors - we are not perfect and we can't fix what we don't know about.


----------



## aesop081 (20 Jun 2012)

Fusilier said:
			
		

> The original post was meant to be amusing,



It failed.


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 Jun 2012)

Fusilier said:
			
		

> t you were also a customer seeking services from me and which I provided and on the many exercises etc I was rarely behind a desk but out with you guys trying to soldier.  I'm disappointed that you can not get past minor terminology.



I don't see it as a minor terminology.
The "CF is a business" mindset that so many people seem to have is ruining our effectiveness.  We can't order a piece of gear and get it when we need it because it's treated as a business.  10 years for the new rucksack? All the bitching back and forth about what company gets what tender and who passes the specs and who fails, lawsuits because this that or the other thing is unfair- money money money.

Calling someone a customer tongue in cheek is one thing, promoting the business mindset that is strangling us is another.

IMO.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (20 Jun 2012)

But some people want to play grown-up and use all that fancy smancy civie talk don't ya know!   ;D


----------



## Maxadia (20 Jun 2012)

Fusilier said:
			
		

> The original post was meant to be amusing, it is and should be taken with a grain of salt.  It also could apply to many other trades within the CF.
> Those of you who have issues with your clerical staff - talk to them about it, talk to their supervisors - we are not perfect and we can't fix what we don't know about.



If it needs to be taken with a grain of salt, then it's not going to be amusing to all, and most likely only to those it pertains to - hence the comments to "keep it to yourself".

The original post smacks of arrogance, regardless if it is comic arrogance or not. Anyone who is a clerk should know better than to toss something like that on here.  I seriously doubt the entire clerical staff would find a post titled "10 Ways That Clerical Staff **** Me Off" funny.  Some would, yes, but most would realize something like that is going to incite resentment right away.


----------



## Fusilier (21 Jun 2012)

Obviously there are pers here who have issues with their admin , everyone is hot under the collar on this topic .  I suggest that this topic be closed as its getting nowhere other than an opportunity for many to trash a particular trade of the CF.


----------



## aesop081 (21 Jun 2012)

Fusilier said:
			
		

> I suggest that this topic be closed as its getting nowhere other than an opportunity for many to trash a particular trade of the CF.



Funny, the original post had no problem trashing everyone else.


----------



## Good2Golf (21 Jun 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Funny, the original post had no problem trashing everyone else.



...but only if you took it too seriously.


----------



## Journeyman (22 Jun 2012)

Fusilier said:
			
		

> ......everyone is hot under the collar on this topic. I suggest that this topic be closed as its getting nowhere other than an opportunity for many to trash a particular trade of the CF.


Gee, some people appear to be expressing displeasure with RMS support (granted, sparked by what was clearly intended as humour) -- and your obvious solution is to eliminate any discussion. 

I guess that would be the equivalent of the "14:30 -- go away" sign, and that it applies here too.    :


----------



## Wookilar (22 Jun 2012)

I've been CSS my entire career and I have always hated the "client" or "customer" labels. I am a soldier, doing my job to ensure that my fellow soldiers can do their job.

While I am a firm believer in using best practices from the civilian business world, we must be able to differentiate between the useful stuff (best value for purchases, modern contracting procedures) and the stuff that is generally useless (bankers business hours, "overtime").

Maybe it's because I started in the EME world in a field unit where there are no regular working hours and have since switched to the Log world where they some are too focused on the civilian business model. 

In my experience, I have seen this type of attitude more often from those CSS troops (of all trades) that started their careers on bases and nonoperational sides of air bases. Many people in this kind of environment seem to develop something akin to small man syndrome that they carry with them when they eventually get posted to an operational unit (be it any environment).

If anyone has their doubts that this type of attitude exists, look no further than when 1 Svc Bn was posted to Edmonton. We had a near-70% turnover in snr nco and near-40% in jnr nco (I am not aware of the officer turnover). The CSS career managers of the time were directed to move people out of the wings and bases and back to the field (where many had never been).

The release rate after the infamous 8 week exercise between the move from Calgary to Edmonton made my head spin as many people simply refused to work in that environment. I don't know how many people I had tell me, as I was conducting a class on how to put together webbing in what is now Clothing Stores (or was when i left at least), that they "didn't join up to do this crap."

Soldier first. I am not providing good customer service (yes I know that's what some sections are called in Sup and Tn), I am supporting my brothers and sisters-in-arms. If we want to get rid of this civilianized attitude, we must supplant it with this military one.

Now, I just need to be put in charge of CFSAL  

Wook


----------



## George Wallace (22 Jun 2012)

Just out of curiousity, how many of you have RMS Clerks who have productive civilian occupations/professions (and I am not talking about Reservists here) outside of their military duties?


----------



## LineJumper (22 Jun 2012)

And how many Lineman/ Veh Techs, etc pad their personal beer funds outside of their duties? My toys aren't a product of service.


----------



## George Wallace (23 Jun 2012)

LineJumper said:
			
		

> And how many Lineman/ Veh Techs, etc pad their personal beer funds outside of their duties? My toys aren't a product of service.



Are you doing that while on the Queen's Schilling or are you doing that after duty?


----------



## armyvern (23 Jun 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I don't see it as a minor terminology.


It's a minor terminology; it is not the root of the problem. That minor terminology has been around for at least 3.5 decades now - long before the CF was forced to be run like a business in it's procurement and acquisition process.



> The "CF is a business" mindset that so many people seem to have is ruining our effectiveness.  We can't order a piece of gear and get it when we need it because it's treated as a business.  10 years for the new rucksack? All the bitching back and forth about what company gets what tender and who passes the specs and who fails, lawsuits because this that or the other thing is unfair- money money money.


Bang on --- and 99.99% of Sup Techs would absolutely agree with you on this too.



> Calling someone a customer tongue in cheek is one thing, promoting the business mindset that is strangling us is another.
> 
> IMO.



The root of the problem: The fact that the CF is forced by it's it's Procurement and Acquisition process into having pers who need to treat us as a business/manage their budgets. 100% accrural accounting - I don't see it going anywhere soon.


----------



## armyvern (23 Jun 2012)

Fusilier said:
			
		

> Obviously there are pers here who have issues with their admin , everyone is hot under the collar on this topic .  I suggest that this topic be closed as its getting nowhere other than an opportunity for many to trash a particular trade of the CF.



99% of the pers posting here are NOT trashing RMS clerks ... rather they are trashing the originating author of the Commandments posted in the original post and similar attitudes they have experienced throughout their careers. Quite the attitude on that lady or gent isn't it? It's not about your trade --- it's all about the bad attitudes. There's threads on here about Sup Techs with bad attitudes, Afghan Vets with bad attitudes, sailors with bad attitudes etc etc. Your trade is, believe it or not, not immune.

If that attitude is evident at the counter, or any sign of a list of those Commandments visibly seen by anyone waiting for service at that (or any OR) counter, I'm willing to wager a guess that their CC would be hearing about it. It's not funny; it's 200% unprofessional.


----------



## LineJumper (24 Jun 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Are you doing that while on the Queen's Schilling or are you doing that after duty?



I'll have to figure some way of doing civy type work while in uniform, somehow I believe the clients may grow suspicious, not to mention my COC wondering where I may be.


----------



## George Wallace (24 Jun 2012)

LineJumper said:
			
		

> I'll have to figure some way of doing civy type work while in uniform, somehow I believe the clients may grow suspicious, not to mention my COC wondering where I may be.



 ;D



On a serious note, however, I have seen a few who are doing more of their own "personal professional/civilian" business during duty than performing their CF duties.  These are the slackers that lead to soooooo many frustrations.......Time for a beer.


----------



## PuckChaser (24 Jun 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Are you doing that while on the Queen's Schilling or are you doing that after duty?



By that logic, we're on the Queen's Schilling 24 hours a day, unless you're a Cl A reservist.


----------



## Journeyman (24 Jun 2012)

Quite a few people are logged onto this site and posting during "working hous" too; are they defrauding the gov't?

But let's stay on topic -- mocking the self-important clerk that originated this thread!  ;D


----------



## armyvern (24 Jun 2012)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Quite a few people are logged onto this site and posting during "working hous" too; are they defrauding the gov't?
> ...



Pfffft; I've been on leave all week (100% true story)!!


----------



## Journeyman (24 Jun 2012)

Hey, we're surprised when you post during daylight hours; we just assume that you're in your crypt   ;D


----------



## armyvern (24 Jun 2012)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Hey, we're surprised when you post during daylight hours; we just assume that you're in your crypt   ;D



9erD says he owes you a beer next time he's around. Beotch.


----------



## MedCorps (24 Jun 2012)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Quite a few people are logged onto this site and posting during "working hous" too; are they defrauding the gov't?




This would be an interesting access to information request. How many individual connections in X month has the DND/CF DWAN server has with army.ca (and navy.ca, etc) and what was the average connection time of each connection. 

Hmmm... it might be funny (or sad). 

MC


----------



## LineJumper (25 Jun 2012)

MedCorps said:
			
		

> This would be an interesting access to information request. How many individual connections in X month has the DND/CF DWAN server has with army.ca (and navy.ca, etc) and what was the average connection time of each connection.
> 
> Hmmm... it might be funny (or sad).
> 
> MC



Sadly, this thought is easily defeated with personally owned 'smart devices'. I would also be curious how many log in via DWAN, more curious would be the breakdown of trades, but I digress, this is the clerk tapping thread.


----------



## OldSolduer (25 Jun 2012)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Hey, we're surprised when you post during daylight hours; we just assume that you're in your crypt   ;D


 :rofl:

That is awesome!


----------

