# New DEOs and January BOTC



## Bograt (1 Dec 2004)

Hi guys,

In the coming days some of us will be receiving our offers and will be preparing for BOTC in January. May I suggest that we "sign up" here, and virtually "get together" to prepare for St. Jean. Through PMs we could introduce each other and perhaps share tips and suggestions for camp.

Cheers,


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## rdschultz (4 Dec 2004)

Thats a good idea.  If you have any specific questions about what its like at St-Jean for IAP/BOTP, I'd be happy to answer them.  I've got two weeks left of BOTP.


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## chipdudeman (6 Dec 2004)

For signing up well here it is:

Spencer Sharpe
Calgary CFRC
023 Infantry Officer

messenger is chipdudeman@hotmail.com

As for questions about the IAP/BOTC, is there a CIBC close to the area or should I start a new account elsewhere?


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## Meridian (7 Dec 2004)

Don't worry about setting anything up, you will have the opp to use the Caisse in the Mega if you need to..... there is an ATM< you'll pay service charges though. Bring Cash on the first day.. less hassles, less pissing off the Sgts 


Just set up online banking... I think there is a CIBC in St Jean, but you wont get to it for at least the first 4 weeks, and usually your officer with authorize you to use the computers during your first 4 to do banking/send a few emails..


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## Bograt (7 Dec 2004)

I have compiled a series of links and other relative information for some of us going to BOTC. Please feel free to share what information you have.

Background Information of (Canadian Forces Leadership and Recruit School)
CFLRS
http://www.cflrs.forces.gc.ca/english/site/index_e.asp

Guidelines and Equipment List for BOTC
http://www.cflrs.forces.gc.ca/english/officers/ralliement/IAP-BOTP-joining-ang.pdf

Address and Maps for CFLRS
Saint-Jean Garrison
PO 100 Succursale Bureau Chef
Richelain (Québec) J0J 1R0
Telephone : (450) 358-7099
Fax : (450) 358-7009 
Maps
How to get to Saint Jean
http://www.cflrs.forces.gc.ca/images/english/stjean2.jpg

How to get to CFLRS
http://www.cflrs.forces.gc.ca/images/english/stjean1.jpg

What to Expect:
DOs and DONâ ?Ts http://army.ca/forums/threads/20490.0.html

Needles (Yuck)
http://army.ca/forums/threads/17989.0.html

Polish Boots
http://army.ca/forums/threads/19896.0.html

Cheers,

Chris Bowers
CFRC Corner Brook
wcbowers@gmail.com


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## RDA (7 Dec 2004)

Word around the forum is that this is "THE" virtual club to be in...     8)

I'm in!   

Richard
SIGS (84)
CFRC Calgary


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## JOHN LEE 27 (14 Dec 2004)

i am in cele sigs 84 ??
some questions 
(1) How many days in a week we are going to jog,run, exercise outside ? ( winter in Stjean....cold)
(2) will the CF provide base layers, gloves caps for us? 
(3) i am thinking to buy some speedos, under armour and ... pls tell me will they give every thing to protect me from winter.


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## rdschultz (14 Dec 2004)

How many days a week I cannot specifically recall, but expect at least a couple days per week of morning PT.  Sometimes more.  I didn't do much of the stuff in the winter (started in September, finishing in 2 days) but I don't imagine they'll stay indoors.  We did morning jogs a few times last week.   

What the PT consists of is up to the platoon staff.  We did some sort of interval training more often than straight jogs (sprint some distance, do pushups, along those lines).  Nearer to the end we started just doing runs.

The CF will provide gloves and base layers.  As you're army, you'll likely get issued two sets of good 3M thermals (much better than the old-school white waffle style the navy and air got).  The gloves are combat gloves which have a knitted liner and a leather outer.   There's also arctic mitts you'll be issued, if it gets really cold.  

As for purchasing stuff, its not a bad idea, but it isn't totally necessary.  You'll be issued a parka and a combat jacket, so you'll have some degree of temperature control.  You'll have combats, obviously as a layer, which you can switch out or use in conjuction with a warmer flannel shirt.   If you do it right, you'll be able to layer very effectively for your body.

That said, there are going to be times when you will be unable to switch between layers.  In Farnham, going from task site to task site, for instance, you may not have time to adjust your clothing.  My biggest problem with staying warm/dry was in the first week of December wearing the combat jacket.  Its almost too warm for doing athletic activity (for me, at least), so I'd sweat when double-timing it to someones task.  After playing with the layers, I know now what works better for me, but I didn't at the time.  If I were to buy any personal kit for the field right now, it would likely be a better wicking layer next to the body, or something like that.  But with the issued kit, you should be fine.  I didn't have anything (well, I bought a toque) extra, and I got along just fine.


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## RDA (15 Dec 2004)

Hey hoser, do you remember how long it took before getting your first pay cheque?
About how much cash do you figure we will need to last us until then?

Thanks for answering all our questions eh!  It's really good of you to help us out like this.


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## Meridian (15 Dec 2004)

First paycheque, I can't answer, as I was already on payroll.

Bring as much as they say on the Joining Instructions....  

They take you shopping, and depending on your course, you have to have everything new and the same as everyone else.....   (ie all the same type locks, etc).


I thnk its about 200$


I can only imagine the additional "fun" that winter IAP/BOTP must be 
So much more to mark, and clean...... and have ready for inspection... But such is the army life.


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## Bograt (15 Dec 2004)

They don't make you go out if it is cold do they? I mean not even my wife makes me shovel the driveway when its cold. 

I heard that Pears soap is the best because it doesn't leave a white residue when it dries.


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## aesop081 (15 Dec 2004)

Bograt....you crack me up man !!


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## Meridian (15 Dec 2004)

Well Im not entirely sure where you are going to support your stash of SOAP.

It really depends on your course staff...

We had an area that was NEVER inspected (basically the lock box, in the closet (this is Blue Sector, OCDts)) and we were allowed to put  personal effects in there.

Basically our inspection-ready tb, paste, soap, etc had all been used at least once but then never used again, or very infrequently and then lightly dusted prior to inspection. 

The stuff you used in the shower 10 minutes before inspection got thrown in your personal area 

Funny enough, I read about this trick on here before I left 2-3 years ago, and it worked there... but again it depends on where your course staff looks and if they give you a "personal area"


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## Thirstyson (15 Dec 2004)

> Hey hoser, do you remember how long it took before getting your first pay cheque?
> About how much cash do you figure we will need to last us until then?



Since the course start date is Jan 17th, you'd be lucky if they made the Jan 31st pay date, at which time you'd all receive the same sum (780$ last Jan). Last year we started on the 10th and were paid on the 30th, they gave everyone a lump sum and sorted out all the deifferent pay details in Feb. I suppose 200$ in cash should be plenty, there's an ATM by the CANNEX but you'll have to jump through some hoops to use it.

Also, you can hide a heck of a lot of stuff in your rucksack, just make sure the buckles are done up nicely so the inspector has no reason to look into it   (come to think of it, we _had_ to hide stuff in our rucks because we were issued more kit than we could display during inspection.


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## Bograt (15 Dec 2004)

Thirstyson said:
			
		

> Since the course start date is Jan 17th, you'd be lucky if they made the Jan 31st pay date, at which time you'd all receive the same sum (780$ last Jan).



Thats US right? 

Do you know what the amount is if you have family and a home. For some reason I thought there was an additional 400.00 a month? Do you remember ho much the backpay was when you finished?


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## Thirstyson (15 Dec 2004)

It's a flat rate for your first and maybe even second paycheck. If you have a family and home then you don't have to pay for room and rations, a _saving_ of around 350 a month. Also, you will qualify for the post-living differential (134$ a month for my home in Ottawa, varies by city) and the separation pay, another ~100 (I don't remember the exact amount). Sorting all these things take time, that's why they give the flat pay at first. The back pay for me was about 1000$ or so.

Also, if the pay is not sufficient the first month you can get an advance from the pay office.


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## Wingman (15 Dec 2004)

[and the separation pay, another ~100 ]

Separation pay is $345.00 for a full month.   I can't remember how much per day but this is what I received on CAP this fall.

If you're married, you don't pay for R&Q which in St. Jean was $332.37 and $84.00 in the fall of 2003.   As a DEO, I was paid as a 2Lt but was an OCdt in Basic so I did not receive any backpay.

******************************************************************************************************
NOTE:   The following is a guideline for people receiving approx. the 2Lt pay while at Basic and may not be all the expenses or perquisites that are alloted.      
******************************************************************************************************
   
Expect this off your monthly gross income:
   Federal Income Tax 10%
   Provincial Income Tax 12% in QC
   Superannuation 4% (may be higher or lower, this depends on your allotment into the program if I remember right)
   C.P.P. 5%
   E.I. 2%
   TOTAL percentage is about 33% off then add 
   Medical Insurance Plan $44 in AB (not sure of other provinces)
   Mess Dues at St.Jean $16.00 (may be different now)

Add to Income if applicable:
   Post Living Differential   -   Depends on city and some cities don't have it
   Separation Expenses - up to $345.00 per month (paid per day that you are on training).
   You also get field pay which is the days that you are in Farnham, you won't get that until wk 3 or 4.   

Paychecks are mid month and end of month (2 times per month).

Wingman


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## Thirstyson (15 Dec 2004)

I forgot how high the separation pay was... gotta get healed up soon so I can get back to training 


Also, I wasn't referring to pack pay, as I was paid as a 2LT since my first day at St-Jean, it's just that our first two paychecks were a flat 780$ regardless of your pay scale. The difference was added to a late February paycheck.


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## rdschultz (15 Dec 2004)

Our course started on 13 Sept, and our first pay was on 30 Sept.  The first paycheque was almost exactly $1700 (based on IPC 2 DEO, so $3598/month).  The pilots here were getting the same pay as me (well, most of them).  Quarters and rations works out to about $450/month, if you get that deducted (i.e. if you're single).  After deductions are done, I end up getting about $1000/pay.  

As for how much cash you  need, a couple hundred bucks should cover you.  You'll get an advance upon arriving, if you so desire, before making your first trip to the Canex for the required kit.   That'll cover your needs for the necessary stuff for inspections and surviving the first four weeks,, and there really isn't much need for more money (unless you enjoy coffee and junk food at the Green Break area).  

As for hiding stuff in your rucks, be careful with that one.  We had individuals do that, and they got in shit.  Everything here depends largely on the specific staff you end up with, so your mileage may vary.   In our case, the staff was very reasonable providing rooms for both civilian and military lockup, so all your extra kit could easily be stored away (we had no access limitations either).


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## hammerz (18 Dec 2004)

Surprise, Surprise!

Craig Scott
Calgary CFRC
023 Infantry Officer

See you in Jan ;D ;D ;D


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## RDA (23 Dec 2004)

hoser said:
			
		

> Our course started on 13 Sept, and our first pay was on 30 Sept.  The first paycheque was almost exactly $1700 (based on IPC 2 DEO, so $3598/month).  The pilots here were getting the same pay as me (well, most of them).  Quarters and rations works out to about $450/month, if you get that deducted (i.e. if you're single).  After deductions are done, I end up getting about $1000/pay.
> 
> As for how much cash you  need, a couple hundred bucks should cover you.  You'll get an advance upon arriving, if you so desire, before making your first trip to the Canex for the required kit.   That'll cover your needs for the necessary stuff for inspections and surviving the first four weeks, and there really isn't much need for more money (unless you enjoy coffee and junk food at the Green Break area).



Thank you very much for the info hoser, and thanks to everyone else who answered too... (it's funny how many people respond to "hey hoser"!)


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## casing (24 Dec 2004)

Wingman said:
			
		

> Add to Income if applicable:
> ...
> Separation Expenses - up to $345.00 per month (paid per day that you are on training).
> You also get field pay which is the days that you are in Farnham, you won't get that until wk 3 or 4.



Separation Expense is $11.50 per day.
Field Pay is more like $16.50 per day.

But....

Separation Expense is tax free, Field Pay is not.  As such, your field pay ends up around $11 or $12 after taxes.

And now for the big point here.... The Field Pay is deducted day for day from any Separation Expense that you might get.  That doesn't really ring fair to me, but whatever.


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## Bograt (6 Jan 2005)

I found this link this morning. A fellow kept a journal of his IAP experience this past September. 
http://63.99.108.76/ubb/Forum2/HTML/006391.html

Reading between the lines of his account, I understand the sooner we realize that it is about leadserhip and teamwork, and not democracy the happier we will be. 

Looking forward to meeting y'all.

Cheers,

Chris


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## Meridian (6 Jan 2005)

Yeah, his story sounds about the same as I remember it.

Best suggestion I can give you (and your Plt): Have someone responsible for each mod in the morning, who then reports to the SecICs who then tells the 2ic and the IC...

We got screwed SOOOO many times because one person or so would leave their bed unmade for breakfast, or something...  thinking theyd have time later...  CPC's (Cadet Platoon Commanders, you are one of these a few times during the course (day long) and you are assessed on it) in my plt got nailed (and FAILED) a few times for this, and it happend more than it should have.... 
When everyone is running off in the morning, its hard to find out whats going on, because line of sight in the mods SUCKS (which is good for privacy, bad for a quick visual check)....

Im serious. This issue caused us probably the most problems on our course, and happend on every other course (4 of them, 2 eng, 2 fra) going through with me.


Its always the little things.


That and its tough to get "leaders" to follow.

(BTW Im talking RegF @ St Jean here)


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## Bograt (6 Jan 2005)

Here is the complete transcript of IAP.

http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php?showtopic=1650&hl=brad+edmondson


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