# "Military closes bars after arrest" - Military illiteracy strikes again



## Allen (20 Sep 2008)

Doesn't look like this has been posted elsewhere. That headline intrigued me, so I read on...

Full story: http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/502855



> He is a master corporal in the Lorne Scots *Brigade*, said Capt. Bob Kennedy, public affairs officer for the 32nd Canadian Brigade.



 ???




> John Bakai, the 25-year-old charged in connection with their deaths, has been a member of the Canadian Forces Primary Reserve since February 2001.



OK, that makes sense...



> The mess halls, which will stay closed while the military investigates the incident, are essentially small bars where *cadets* gather to socialize, Kennedy said.



 ???



> There are three armouries, two in Oakville and one in Brampton, for *the three regiments of the Lorne Scots brigade of Army Cadets*.



D'OH!!


----------



## 1feral1 (20 Sep 2008)

I don't think to PAFFO and the media have a clue on this.

The wording is confusing.

What is clear that a drunk soldier killed two innocent guys who were on their way to work.

The accused gets to stay with his Mum and Dad, while the the famiy of those he's killed mourn, and have lost everything in a country far from home.


Cheers,

OWDU


----------



## The Bread Guy (20 Sep 2008)

Before we jump on the PAffO too  much, let's remember, quotes like these:


> He is a master corporal in the Lorne Scots Brigade, said Capt. Bob Kennedy, public affairs officer for the 32nd Canadian Brigade.





> The mess halls, which will stay closed while the military investigates the incident, are essentially small bars where cadets gather to socialize, Kennedy said.


are the reporter's PARAPHRASES of what was said, as opposed to this:


> "The mess halls operate under the same liquor laws as any other establishment where liquor is served," Kennedy said.


which is a verbatim quote.

We can't tell what the PAffO said, we can only see what was written.  I'm guessing the reporter may think Reservists are like Cadets, but didn't specifically ask the difference (which the PAffO would likely be able to explain).


----------



## The_Falcon (20 Sep 2008)

I clicked on the link provided on the stories pages, to let them know about any errors a story may contain.  

This is what I sent

"There several GLARING errors with your story.  First of all in your headline you refer to the accused as a Corporal, when he is in fact a Master Corporal. Second in your first paragraph you called him a recruit, despite the fact that 2 paragraphs later, you state his acual rank, and that he has been a member of the reserves since 7 years.  Third you refer to the Lorne Scots Brigade, when the proper terminology is the Lorne Scots Regiment. Fourth you started confusing the army cadets (a youth organization for 12-18 year olds) with the Army Reserve, by stating that the mess halls (also an error as mess halls are where people eat, they are simply referred to the Junior Ranks mess) are where cadets socialize.  Cadets may use the armouries, however they are not permitted in the mess, as they are drinking establishments.  5th you continue to go on about cadets, and recruits, even though the accused was neither."


----------



## The Bread Guy (20 Sep 2008)

Well done - we'll see how long it takes to change the story.


----------



## gun runner (20 Sep 2008)

This has to be the most grossly reported story that i have ever read. And the scary part is that people out there DO NOT know the difference! How will little Tommy or Sally's parents react to this story after reading that cadets are drinking in mess halls at these armouries? I know it all a misrepresentation, but this story could have much dire effects on both the Canadian Forces, and the Cadet program as well, for a forseeable time to come. For shame. Ubique


----------



## Blackadder1916 (20 Sep 2008)

gun runner said:
			
		

> This has to be the most grossly reported story that i have ever read. And the scary part is that people out there DO NOT know the difference! How will little Tommy or Sally's parents react to this story after reading that cadets are drinking in mess halls at these armouries? I know it all a misrepresentation, but this story could have much dire effects on both the Canadian Forces, and the Cadet program as well, for a forseeable time to come. For shame. Ubique



Oh, there have been much worse stories with a military slant that didn't spell doom for the CF.  While it is a poorly researched and written piece, I wouldn't put it in the category of "misrepresentation" (that has a connotation of deliberately and knowingly passing false information).  I doubt that the reporter is a "liar", (IMO) she's just not too bright.  

As to the "dire" consequences of this story, how widespread is it, really?  While this "local" story may have some minor effect in the GTA, does it really have legs?  That it comes to notice on this means is understandable due to the military-centric leanings of most on these forums, but how does it play in the Toronto area.  Though the Star is a major daily in that area, it (the paper) doesn't get widely outside its normal circulation area.  And without seeing how this story is placed in the paper, it is hard to determine the editorial importance given it.  None of the other stories (from a google search) related to this incident (which happened a week ago) make mention of the closure of the messes though he is identified in some as a CF reservist and there was a small comment made in one piece that, so far, there has been no connection made between this incident and drinking in the mess.  Since there is a publication ban on the proceedings it is unlikely that any details will be forthcoming until after the trial has ended.  In all likelyhood this was a follow-on piece to accompany reports of bail being granted to this person.  Though not a scientific measure of the weight of the story, this is what people are reading on The Star website:



> MOST POPULAR ON THESTAR.COM
> Most Read
> Lawyer accepted nude dances as fee
> Former Blink-182 drummer critically injured
> ...



As always, sex, drugs guns and rock 'n roll still the big sellers.


----------



## PMedMoe (21 Sep 2008)

Glaring errors aside _*cringe*_, what I find weird is the closure of the drinking messes due to this accident.  Can you imagine if they closed civilian bars every time there was a death involving a DUI?


----------



## George Wallace (21 Sep 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Glaring errors aside _*cringe*_, what I find weird is the closure of the drinking messes due to this accident.  Can you imagine if they closed civilian bars every time there was a death involving a DUI?



Yup!  Rather "Knee Jerk" reaction on the part of some PC 'person', slamming the doors closed after the wolf has left the premises, leaving all the remaining innocents to suffer.  It is a shame that some so called leaders feel that they should treat their soldiers like children, rather than adults.   That is the best way to make them start acting like children.


----------



## Kat Stevens (21 Sep 2008)

There you go.  Treat me like a child, and you'll see the most ill tempered six year old you ever met in your life.


----------



## The Bread Guy (21 Sep 2008)

Would the response be any different, say, if there wasn't an election on?  Discuss...

Who typed that?  Not me....  Nothing to see here - moving right along.


----------



## axeman (21 Sep 2008)

I started at the top read the story and saw the huge mistakes made in the news story .I too wondered id was SOP to shut down every bar that has one of their customers that has a fatal  incident while DUI?  I think its a  knee jerk reaction on the side of PC  like this and while i hate to bring it up the Canadian Airbourne  Regiment  whos trying to appeas[sp]   whom as its again coming into a election year ,,, Hmmmm .. seems to me theres a throw the CF under the bus  so we can show how rightous we are  movement is afoot . # messes?  why 3  ulness  they mean  the Mens ,Snr NCO and Officers messes. all housed in the same facility . In some of the smaller regiments they operate under the same liquor license. So in fact they have  only shut one mess down in this case .


----------



## dapaterson (21 Sep 2008)

Or have there been other, less-publicized incidents, leading to someone to make a decision to make an example?  "If you want a mess, don't act stupid" would not be a poor lesson. I can think of at least one other recent significant incident in/around a Toronto Armoury with alcohol involved.

Note: Most armouries have a single license for the premises, including all messes.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (21 Sep 2008)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Would the response be any different, say, if there wasn't an election on?  Discuss...



I don't think the election would have anything to do with it.  In fact, (to me) the closure of the messes until an investigation can determine if there was any connection with the incident would be a cautious and not unexpected step , though unpopular with the soldiers.  While the messes must abide by the same liquor licensing laws as any other drinking establishment, most do not operate the same way as a commercial premises.  A commander who did not scrutinize every detail how such an incident as this may affect his command and take any steps necessary to limit the liability of the CF would be derelict in his duty.  Though rare, restrictions on the use of a mess (consumption of alcohol) have been imposed in the past due to outside incidents.

Speculating on what may or may not have happened, or how messes (individually or collectively in the past or present) do business or provide service could provide additional (and perhaps most likely misleading) information to reporters, lawyers and those who generally want to give the CF a hard time.  Perhaps there is a good reason why the judge imposed a publication ban on this case.  Maybe we should take heed and follow his example.


----------



## greentoblue (21 Sep 2008)

Unfortunately, the closure of the messes is a predictable response by the chain-of-command given the lingering sensitivity from the Moss Park beating.  Several years ago all the messes were closed at the Bay Street Armoury in Victoria after an altercation following a mess dinner.  (I know - the circumstances were different in each case but the time these SIRs get up the chain the little details get dropped off.)


----------



## Retired AF Guy (21 Sep 2008)

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> ....... What is clear that a drunk soldier killed two innocent guys who were on their way to work.



Sorry, was John Bakai actually in uniform when the accident happened? Had he been drinking in the mess prior to getting into the car and causing the accident?  Also, as a member of the Primary Reserve was he employed in a full-time position or was he only part-time job?  If he was only part-time then what was his day-time job? Until these questions are answered I think the "drunk solider" epitaph is unwarranted.


----------



## Greymatters (21 Sep 2008)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Sorry, was John Bakai actually in uniform when the accident happened? Had he been drinking in the mess prior to getting into the car and causing the accident?  Also, as a member of the Primary Reserve was he employed in a full-time position or was he only part-time job?  If he was only part-time then what was his day-time job? Until these questions are answered I think the "drunk solider" epitaph is unwarranted.



Unfortunately, while it is very important to us whether the person was out of uniform or in uniform, to the news reporters it usually makes no difference.  Any partial relation to the military makes you 'military'.


----------



## the 48th regulator (21 Sep 2008)

I think the closing of the Messes, would be due to an investigation to see if he left the Mess drunk, and drove  when this happened.

There have been many instances where a bar has been held responsible, with regard to the actions of it's patrons leaving the establishment intoxicated.  It was why messes must have bar tenders trained in Smart Serve, have the hours of the bar posted, and stipulate I.D must be shown when ordering drinks.

I am sure that this is what is happening, to ensure that the Regiment, and the CF are not found liable if they followed all the rules.

dileas

tess


----------



## Retired AF Guy (23 Sep 2008)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, while it is very important to us whether the person was out of uniform or in uniform, to the news reporters it usually makes no difference.  Any partial relation to the military makes you 'military'.



Actually, I did a Google search and the other reports only mentioned that Bakai was in the military and that was about it. Only the _The Star_ went into detail about him being the reserves, which unit, quotes from the PAFFO,  etc, etc.


----------



## Jarnhamar (24 Sep 2008)

Smart serve is a joke.

If anything drinking in the mess vice a bar serves to reduce drinking and driving.
First off buddies peers will (should) stop him from driving away. There's no strangers persay in a mess, it's much more difficult to hide in a mess then a crowded bar.
Second correct me if I'm wrong but a soldier on DND properity is held under the code of service discipline and can get _hammered_ due to it.
Third anyone with any sort of leadership training/responsibility would be/should be in a position to stop someone from drinking and driving.

Drinking in a mess, getting drunk in a mess and being an idiot in the mess is BY FAR safer to the individual and public than someone going to a bar.

Just like at bars though, shit happens. People who have had too much to drink decide their going to drive and reaching their hand in the pocket and finding their keys they will say "Hey I'm going to piss" and they drive away. Sometimes you just can't stop that.  Establishments should be held responsible to an extent for blatently obvious cases (as well those individuals should be cut off) but people should pay the price for their own stupidity.


----------



## Redeye (24 Sep 2008)

Corrections have been made to the online story - though not perfect.  They have "Lorne Scots regiment" but better than it was.  The references to Cadets have been removed.


----------



## The Bread Guy (24 Sep 2008)

Just checked and found corrections made - I give credit where credit is due.


----------



## PMedMoe (24 Sep 2008)

Here's a question.  According to the article the accident occurred at about *4:45 a.m.*.  What time did the Mess close?  Is it possible that this guy had a beer at the Mess (or none) and then went drinking elsewhere?


----------



## The_Falcon (25 Sep 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Here's a question.  According to the article the accident occurred at about *4:45 a.m.*.  What time did the Mess close?  Is it possible that this guy had a beer at the Mess (or none) and then went drinking elsewhere?



Those questions are, probably part of the ongoing investigation.  Due to the publication ban in this case (whatever happen to open courts?), it will probably be some time before we find out the answers.


----------



## George Wallace (25 Sep 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Here's a question.  According to the article the accident occurred at about *4:45 a.m.*.  What time did the Mess close?  Is it possible that this guy had a beer at the Mess (or none) and then went drinking elsewhere?



Really not a factor.  Whether or not the bar closed really doesn't matter if the person was on a drinking binge.  When a person has been "out on the town" and partaking in "heavy drinking" their Blood Alcohol level will remain high for several hours.  That means, even if a person went home after the bar closed (at the legal time), went to bed and then drove to work the next morning, they could still be over the Legal Limit and Charged with being Impaired under the Highway Safety Act.  It has happened many times in the past, and came as quite a surprise to many of those caught and Charged.


----------



## PMedMoe (25 Sep 2008)

That is true, George.  I guess I was just wondering which bar the guy was last drinking in as they would be the ones "responsible" for serving him, according to the "no personal accountability" law.


----------



## the 48th regulator (25 Sep 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> That is true, George.  I guess I was just wondering which bar the guy was last drinking in as they would be the ones "responsible" for serving him, according to the "no personal accountability" law.



Exactly,

But until that can be determined, I understand why they closed the mess' and are conducting the investigation to ensure who is liable.

dileas

tess


----------



## Jarnhamar (25 Sep 2008)

I wonder if the mess members can ask to be compensated for some of their mess dues


----------



## ArmyRick (25 Sep 2008)

I see it this way. Closing the mess after an incident like this is the CF taking precautions until they get all the facts._ Its the right thing to do IMO._

If the investigation finds that the messes were not responsible, then at least the CF took a proactive measure. If its the other way around, think about damaging that would be to the CF. Look at what some other blackeyes have done to us publicly.

Another straight up fact. MCpl Bakai killed two innocent people. End story. If the stroy was a drunk civy smashed up and killed 2 CF members, you all know how damn fired up we would be.

So closing the mess is no big deal when look at the loss of two fathers to two families.


----------



## Jarnhamar (26 Sep 2008)

I understand the precautions.

Just something about shutting down the 3 messes because someone drank there seems strange. Like what do they intend to find? That he was drinking?  Or if he should have been cut off,will the bartenders hand for it? What about other JNCOs who were present, will they be charged too? Can they be charged?


----------



## George Wallace (26 Sep 2008)

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> .......... Like what do they intend to find? That he was drinking?  Or if he should have been cut off,will the bartenders hand for it? What about other JNCOs who were present, will they be charged too? Can they be charged?



They will investigate all of those points.  If the bartender knowingly served him when he was not legally supposed to will be questioned.  Did he hide in a corner and was not seen by the bartender and was servered by his buddies, will also be investigated.  If so, should charges be laid against his friends, will also be looked at.  What hours was he present in any of these Messes, will also be investigated.  So, in the end all the questions will be asked and answered.


----------



## Michael OLeary (24 Sep 2010)

*Four years from killing two dads while driving drunk*

Artilcle link



> BRAMPTON - John Bakai had hoped to be deployed to Afghanistan by now.
> 
> Instead, the suspended army reservist convicted of killing two fathers while driving the wrong way on Hwy. 403 has been sent off to serve a four year sentence in federal prison.
> 
> ...


----------



## Jarnhamar (25 Sep 2010)

That's Brutal.


"Justice Bruce Durno accepted Bakai’s “deep” remorse and his guilty plea as mitigating factors when considering the 27-year-old’s sentence"
In a case like this should someone's "deep remorse" really be a factor?  I can't find myself to care that he feels bad for what happened. He mad multiple chances to do the right thing, starting back in 2008 and ignored them.


----------



## ArmyRick (27 Sep 2010)

Come again? He had multiple chances to do the right thing starting in 2008? Can you explain the whole multiple chances remark?


----------



## Blackadder1916 (27 Sep 2010)

> Come again? He had multiple chances to do the right thing starting in 2008? Can you explain the whole multiple chances remark?




Perhaps this?



> *On May 2, 2008, Bakai was stopped for impaired driving on the QEW and issued a warning* and a 12-hour driving suspension.
> 
> But he’d obviously not learned his lesson.
> 
> ...


----------



## Jarnhamar (27 Sep 2010)

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> Come again? He had multiple chances to do the right thing starting in 2008? Can you explain the whole multiple chances remark?


Blackadder beat me too it.


Previous 12 hour suspension. Taking his own vehicle when alternate transportation was laid on. Choosing to drive when people told him to sleep it off.
Do you disagree that he had multiple chances to do the right thing?


----------



## ArmyRick (27 Sep 2010)

Gotcha. That makes sense. I was aware he killed two men but unaware he was stopped prior to that.


----------

