# Patrol Blues For Health Services



## medaid (12 Mar 2007)

Well the title says it all. I like the patrol blues, I think it is a very sharp uniform that bridges the gap between DEU and Mess Dress, and could be warn for occasions that require formal wear, but wearing of the Mess Dress would be too much. The DEU just cannot compare when it comes to the look of the patrol blues. The high collar, sam brown and maroon stripe down the side of the trousers just says it all. 

1) So would YOU the average Health Services soldier like a set of patrols if it was allowed?
2) How do we go about bringing the Patrols back into the Health Services?


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## Donut (12 Mar 2007)

Just what I need, another uniform in my closet   :-X


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## PMedMoe (12 Mar 2007)

ParaMedTech said:
			
		

> Just what I need, another uniform in my closet   :-X



I agree, but can someone post a picture? I've never even heard of them.  ???


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## aesop081 (12 Mar 2007)

Just currious, as i have never heard of them but would this be something that the member would buy on their own ( like mess kit) or another drain on the budget  issued ?


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## Remius (12 Mar 2007)

I thought patrol dress was a reserve thing? They are the only ones I've ever seen wear them.  For the record I have a set.  It'll run you around 750.00 or so. Looks sharp.


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## Donut (12 Mar 2007)

I suspect it's a "reserve thing" because most (all?) the Regiments who wore them traditionally were struck from the Regular OrBat at one time or another.  Kinda like the Scots and the Irish Regiments.

Any one who was around able to verify/refute?

DF


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## Remius (13 Mar 2007)

Well this is a wiki link.  Not the best but it seems to be reserve only.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniforms_of_the_Canadian_Forces#Full_dress_and_patrol_dress


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## Blackadder1916 (13 Mar 2007)

Yes it is a "Reserve" thing.  Actually, IIRC the wording in CF Dress Instructions is/was "Militia".  But it has been several+ years since I've referred to them.  At the time it was to confirm that an officer with whom I served was allowed under then current regulations to purchase, at his own expense, patrol dress to wear at his wedding.  I believe CFP 265 referrred to them as included in No. 1 order of dress.  If memory serves me right, the book states that the uniform was to be of a regimental pattern or of the former Canadian Army Corps/Regt pattern, including insignia.

From viewing old photos of Canadian Army units, it seems that the wearing of patrols was generally restricted to officers, warrant officers and Snr NCOs.  Cost probably had something to with it.

But it is still a uniform, and as such the wearing of it is subject to regulations as well as authorization from the chain of command.  So it seems, if you're a member of the "Militia", have several hundred plus dollars and want to play dress up, go for it.


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## gaspasser (13 Mar 2007)

MedTech said:
			
		

> Well the title says it all. I like the patrol blues, I think it is a very sharp uniform that bridges the gap between DEU and Mess Dress, and could be warn for occasions that require formal wear, but wearing of the Mess Dress would be too much. The DEU just cannot compare when it comes to the look of the patrol blues. The high collar, sam brown and maroon stripe down the side of the trousers just says it all.
> 
> 1) So would YOU the average Health Services soldier like a set of patrols if it was allowed?
> 2) How do we go about bringing the Patrols back into the Health Services?


Ok, dumb question here, how many years are you going back?  I've got a few years under my belt plus some in the reserves {militia} and have never heard of Patrol Dress.  I think we are getting rid of having so many uniforms; I remember when we had Garrison Dress with the belt and paint by number jacket, plus CF's, plus combats. I like it now where we have one for work and one for parade.  I used to hate having to wear the "nice" clothes when chaining down a load or crawling underneath a vehicle to check for leaks, or when greasing forks or changing a cutting edge.  
I can get dirty now and not have to worry about it.
Sorry, rant off.

 8)


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## Donut (13 Mar 2007)

Thanks for that Blackadder.  I've run across several members who lament the loss of the uniform, the originator of this thread included, and I've never known the history behind it.

I do know the RAMC pers I served with on a SUE with 75 ER didn't have them (but they did have the snazy blue beret), but they were all NCM's, so I was never sure.

DF


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## xo31@711ret (13 Mar 2007)

Ok, dumb question here, how many years are you going back?  

Hey BTY Driver, I remember wearing dickies with the old 'bus driver work' dress. First I've heard of 'Patrol Blues' also.. ???

-gerry


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## Blackadder1916 (13 Mar 2007)

BYT Driver said:
			
		

> ...how many years are you going back?  I've got a few years under my belt plus some in the reserves {militia} and have never heard of Patrol Dress.


  For the Reg Force:  Before you joined, before I joined, before Gen Hillier joined, though he may remember seeing them from his days as an Army Cadet.


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## geo (13 Mar 2007)

Reg force thing, Res force thing.....

Some units have maintained an inventory of their old dress uniform - be they Patrol blues or scarlets...
- RCR & PPCLI have their scarlets & Pith helmets
- R22R have their Scarlets & Bearskins
- LDSH have their Scarlets, breast plates, helmets, lances & horses
- 5 RGC (5 CER) have enough Patrol blues to put out a guard in full RCE (not CME) regalia....

I wore patrol blues many years ago, sharp looking uniform... but, when wearing em on a cold & wet November Rememberance day ceremony with wind coming off the river coming up my back (and front) - silk/poly lining would turn to ICE!!! Brrrr!!!!!

BTW medtech - wearing Blues on ceremonial occasions, never say anyone wear a Sam Browne with em.... white belts for the ORs and Silk sash for the RSM & Offrs


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## Fishbone Jones (13 Mar 2007)

Our's have chain maill on the shoulders and Claymore charged about $750.00 a set.


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## geo (13 Mar 2007)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Our's have chain maill on the shoulders and Claymore charged about $750.00 a set.


Claymores are for highland units
Armoured & cavalry have sabres... and yes, chainmail epaulettes
(scarlet forage caps too !/?)


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## Staff Weenie (13 Mar 2007)

I love the old patrols. I remember seeing my father's set (8 Fd Arty in Hamilton) - it was actually one of the reasons I wanted to be a soldier when I was little.

I had heard they were much cheaper than Mess Kit - ~$400 vice the ~$1,100 I paid for my total Mess Kit complete (need to get more work done on it - last promotion is going to be costly to add....). And, if they were cheaper, then more Junior Officers could afford them.

The other thing I liked was the ability to wear a sword and have it look good. DEU sucks in my opinion - it looks cheap, and adding a sword doesn't help. But Patrols - now they look good.

Any historians know when RCAMC stopped using them?


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## geo (13 Mar 2007)

.... unification & arrival of CF Green uniform
also - when the RCAMC stopped calling itself RCAMC

same as when the RCE became THE CEM, medical services cap badge and collar dogs were not authorized for wear


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## Matt_Fisher (13 Mar 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> Claymores are for highland units
> Armoured & cavalry have sabres... and yes, chainmail epaulettes
> (scarlet forage caps too !/?)



I believe the Claymore reference was meant to mean that Claymore Clothes, a military tailor in Vancouver, had tailored a set of patrol dress blues with chainmail for $750.


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## GINge! (13 Mar 2007)

They are a sharp looking uniform. Patrols are still worn at RMC (or at least they were in the 80's) and I have see some RCHA Gunners take them out for special functions (incl weddings, where I think they look better than mess kit).

As for bringing them back - no thanks! Too many uniforms and other kit crowding up the house.


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## medaid (13 Mar 2007)

blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Yes it is a "Reserve" thing.  Actually, IIRC the wording in CF Dress Instructions is/was "Militia".  But it has been several+ years since I've referred to them.  At the time it was to confirm that an officer with whom I served was allowed under then current regulations to purchase, at his own expense, patrol dress to wear at his wedding.  I believe CFP 265 referrred to them as included in No. 1 order of dress.  If memory serves me right, the book states that the uniform was to be of a regimental pattern or of the former Canadian Army Corps/Regt pattern, including insignia.
> 
> From viewing old photos of Canadian Army units, it seems that the wearing of patrols was generally restricted to officers, warrant officers and Snr NCOs.  Cost probably had something to with it.
> 
> But it is still a uniform, and as such the wearing of it is subject to regulations as well as authorization from the chain of command.  So it seems, if you're a member of the "Militia", have several hundred plus dollars and want to play dress up, go for it.




Really?! WOW! That'll be cool! Ya... like ParaMedTech said, I lament about it allot. What actually brought this up was when I was helping an ex-CO of the unit with a display in the Medical Museum in the Brigade Building. *sigh* It was obviously a display with patrol blues in it. You're right no Sam Brown worn on parade, just something I thought I'd throw in there. The Sam Brown was authorized as the proscribed accoutrement for an officer underarms and in the field, if I remember... and also garrison. Anywho... I would love to get a set, and if it's actually allowed, then I will go forth and acquire one, and yes wear it to my wedding. I wander if I can wear it to my mess dinners?


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## Blackadder1916 (13 Mar 2007)

MedTech said:
			
		

> ... I would love to get a set, and if it's actually allowed, then I will go forth and acquire one, and yes wear it to my wedding. I wander if I can wear it to my mess dinners?



You sound much like the young officer I referred to in a previous post.  Much enthusiasm and exhuberence not yet hampered by excessive self control.  Why don't you read Dress Instructions first?  See what current regulations are.  As I said above, it has been years since I looked up the answer to this question, things change.  Then ask your CO.  What one says may not necessarily be what another other says.


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## medaid (13 Mar 2007)

Very true blackadder1916. Young and enthusiastic indeed. I don't know if it's something that would be able to be approved at a CO level, I'll do more research into and then get my answers that way.


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## Fishbone Jones (13 Mar 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> Claymores are for highland units
> Armoured & cavalry have sabres... and yes, chainmail epaulettes
> (scarlet forage caps too !/?)



Duh... thanks for that : After 40 years, most with the Corps, I'm pretty sure of what we carry.   Seeing as Claymore Clothes had been previously mentioned, I figured the connection was a given. Forgot Engineers were minute detail guys though  ;D Black beret for ours BTW.


Tanks! Matt


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## geo (13 Mar 2007)

Heh..... 
Medtech... your unit would ned a real big okie dokie going forward with this.
The medical branch patrol blues were in an era when you were still known as the RCAMC and you had a different cap badge and collar dogs.

Not sure you are allowed to wear with the new medical accoutrements.

I know that 5 CER/RGC's honour guard wears the old Engineer grenades & Royal cypher cap badge - it's recognized as Historical accoutrements.... 

Also - Officers would wear Pips & crowns instead of bars.


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## medaid (13 Mar 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> Heh.....
> Medtech... your unit would ned a real big okie dokie going forward with this.
> The medical branch patrol blues were in an era when you were still known as the RCAMC and you had a different cap badge and collar dogs.
> 
> ...



Yup I know  I like the pips and crowns look and I honestly think that the Blues are such a sharp uniform! Honestly... I've seen CIC officers wear them, yes they were affiliated with an Armoured Regiment, but... its just a tiny bit rediculous that a PRes unit cant. 

That's also partly my question. HOW do we get them reinstated as a part of our dress? I mean it is a great intermediate uniform for those of us who cannot afford a set of mess dress, and neither do we have the rank requisite of a set of mess dress. That's just me. Anyone know how we can get them reinstated for the Health Services? it'll be a nice morale booster for those who want it, and it wouldn't be a mandatory set of uniform. I mean... I just cant stress how sharp it looks!


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## Fishbone Jones (13 Mar 2007)

Don't confuse the two. Patrols are 'walking out dress'. Mess kit is formal wear that is not 'normally' worn until after 18:00.


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## medaid (13 Mar 2007)

Hmmmm maybe you can clarify for me RecceGuy. 

What I meant was that we can wear the Patrols to mess dinners or other events which require a formal uniform that we may not be able to afford. I know that the BCRs sometimes wear their Patrols as their 'mess dress' for dinners and other formal functions. Maybe I'm just confusing myself now. Need to do more researching I guess


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## geo (13 Mar 2007)

To wear patrol blues you would have to submit a request to the National Defence clothing and dress committee (NDCDC).

Justify it, detail it, put everything in writing and get the okie dokie in writing.

You'llhave to go thru channels... thus get medical branch approval prior to asking NDCDC for their blessing.

If you refer to CFP 265  (A-AD-265-001/AG-001) 

chapter 1 art 55, former uniforms of the canadian army shall not be worn by CF members except for personnel participating in special events as authorized by a commander of a command or NDHQ equivalent.

chap 1 art  58  CF personel who purchased an obsolete dress pattern while it was authorized may continue to wear that uniform until it worn out.  new purchases will conform to current regulations.


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## Fishbone Jones (13 Mar 2007)

MedTech said:
			
		

> Hmmmm maybe you can clarify for me RecceGuy.
> 
> What I meant was that we can wear the Patrols to mess dinners or other events which require a formal uniform that we may not be able to afford. I know that the BCRs sometimes wear their Patrols as their 'mess dress' for dinners and other formal functions. Maybe I'm just confusing myself now. Need to do more researching I guess



Different strokes...........Protocal is not always followed. We don't allow Patrols at Mess dinners. Nor should they be, IMHO. No mess kit? DEU with white shirt & black bow tie. You want to wear patrols and eat? Hold a luncheon. Barathea mess kit shouldn't cost anymore than patrols. I have both and the cost was about the same from Claymore (Clothes). But that's just my $00.02.


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## geo (13 Mar 2007)

Reccceguy, some units have adopted the patrol blues as their mess-kit.

Royal Montreal Reg't WOs & Sgts have had the patrol blues as their mess kit by the dress committee.

I believe it's ditto for the Royal Canadian Hussars, 12RBC(M) and Sherbrooke Husars.


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## elder medic (21 Mar 2007)

Just back after "uncrashing' my PC,  and getting my head unscrambled after a scientific experiment proving that arena ice IS harder than my head, last week.  On the subject of Patrol Blues, they were, in my day of the 50'and 60's, THE formal order of dress for  ALL noncommissioned ranks, BUT NOT compulsory.  Ours in the RCAMC were the dark blue with the cherry stripe on the leg, high collar and appropriate brass collar dogs and rank insignia in gold.  When on my Sr NCO course at the Corps school in 1957, we were 'encouaged' to purchase same, but I don't know of any who did so.  No idea what the price was, but we could not afford it. Pure and simple. Very few members of the Sgts and WO's mess ever did own a set.  Most offficers had mess dress, but seldom wore blues. We had basically four uniforms, 2 winter battle dress in the khaki serge, and the lighter 'tropical worsted' for summer, again 2 uniforms. That was it. Oh yes, in the 50s still we had shorts and shirtsleeve order of dress as well.  But while at NB HQ before and after Gagetown opened, NO ONE wore shorts and shirtsleeves, although I do have several scary pictures on the wall.  We got a uniform dirty, we paid to have Waggs clean it and hope they did it before we needed it again.  Oy vey, such a good life it was, and still is.


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## geo (21 Mar 2007)

Most offficers had mess dress, but seldom wore blues. We had basically four uniforms, 2 winter battle dress in the khaki serge, and the lighter 'tropical worsted' for summer, again 2 uniforms. That was it.

Officers Winter dress
     Serge & sam browne 
     Battledress
Officers summer dress
     Pinks ( VS ORs T Dubbs - TW - tropical wore )
     Bush dress

Patrol blues were issued & Mess Kits were optional 

( I still have a mint set of TDubbs with the rank of Cpl from 71-72 (just before I got my 1st set of greens.)


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## elder medic (22 Mar 2007)

Thanks for the reminder, Geo.  I had completely forgotten about the bush dress, although now I wear almost the same thing in the decent weather, tan Tilley pants and shirts, short sleeved. Can't bring myself to buy the jacket though.  My best web belt with the monster Corps buckle is hanging on the wall behind me.  We could certainly have used a "working, or bumming around" order of dress as available now.
Now do I blame the faulty memories on my age or the concussion?  Cheers


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## geo (22 Mar 2007)

NP... always willing to help an elder


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