# Combat Arms Rivalry



## fusilier (12 Feb 2001)

I don‘t know about anyone else, but have all the other infanteers out there experienced rivalry from other combat arms?  You know what I mean, the Artillery and the Armoured Corps seem to have some sort of animosity towards all of us.  And I‘m sure we‘ve all heard that saying that all of them seem to say " I have the exact same training you do" or "I can do your job".  Tell me, if an artilleryman can do my job with their one week or so of infantry training, why did I take seven weeks of it?  Most of these allegations are unfounded and untrue.  I once had a Gunner give me an order, claiming he was a higher rank than me, because he was a Gunner but I was only a Pte., even though I had more time in.  He claimed that Gunner is a higher rank than a Pte so I said "I‘m not a Pte, I‘m a Fusilier!!!!"  My personal feelings on the issue is that we each have our own job that we‘re trained to do, I‘ll do my job, they can do their‘s.


----------



## McG (13 Feb 2001)

The fact is that all our jobs are different.  If they were not there would only be one combat arm (not *four*).  You need only participate (or even watch) in a battle group excercise.  No one arm can do it alone, and it takes all four to do it right.

As for the issue of seniority, your rank is your rank.  If you have one cheveron it does not matter if you call yourself gunner, sapper, crewman, trooper, guardsman, fusilier, or even private; you are all the same.  This is not to say that one cannot be given command over persons of the same rank, it is to say that one‘s trade does not give seniority over ones peers.


----------



## JRMACDONALD (13 Feb 2001)

A Rant, if I may--There must be a rivalry, as the aim of war/combat is the ultimate level of competition ie Kill your opponent!!  One could remove all other trades except infantry, and wars would still be fought and won ( it would take a little longer and be a Hell of a lot Harder to accomplish). Infantry is THE combat arm- all others are support( some are just closer to the front than others!)
Personally- I like the idea of tankers, sappers, gunners, ( clerks and mechs and techs, too) being on my team. I just wont admit it in the Mess!!


----------



## Mud Crawler (13 Feb 2001)

I think we‘ve all heard of the benefits of competition and rivalry.My point is, when the shit hits the fan, the navy will be happy to have the air force looking around with sono-bouoys for enemy subs, the gunners will be happy to have the infantry hold their grounds so they dont get over runned by enemy forces and the infantry will be happy to have the armoured corps to crush pockets of resistance that would necessitate more time and perhaps more casualties, and that‘s why they teach other combat arms tactics to officers, because when all hell breaks loose, animosity is put aside and cooperation arises.


----------



## RCA (13 Feb 2001)

There will always rivalry amongest the different elements in the forces and for the most part it is healthy. We all know (or should know) that when the shit hits the fan we are all on the same side. However we all know that the combat arms are better than the service support elements, those in the field are better than HQ types and the Army is better than the Air Force and Navy. It builds espirit d‘ corp to condider your element superiour to others. Hell there is rivalry amonsgt infantry battlions isn‘t there. 

Fusilier take it with a grain of salt when a gunner says he is better than a pte, he‘s pulling your chain. And for your general information we gunners must have some fundermental infantry trg (not as in-depth as you guys)because we can only depend on ourselves for local defence when the shit hits the fan. We can‘t bug out when we are firing in direct support for you guys, so we stay and defend ourselves while giving you the support you deserve.

I guess this isn‘t the time to stir the pot by stating that the Artillery spurs the Infantry on to victory so I won‘t say it    . As well the present the army commander is ag  unner as well as LGen (ret) Dallaire, both commanders of the 1st Canadian Army were  gunners during WWII, one of the Corp Commaders and at least 4 Divisional Commanders were also gunners. I am just stating these facts because I‘m am proud that I‘m am member of the Royal Regiment of Canadian Artillery the best Regt in the Army. 
And before everyone starts frothing at the mouth, this is only my personal opinion because I know that each of you considers your regt/branch to be the best and that is the way it should be. Remember we field Combat Teams and Battle Groups.


----------



## fusilier (13 Feb 2001)

Here‘s one for you JRMACDONALD and RCA

General A.G.L. McNaughton, the Canadian Army commander in World War Two and an artillery officer by trade, once said while giving a lecture to the McGill contingent of the Canadian Officers Training Corps  "Artillery cannot itself win battles.  It is the resolute advance of the Infantry which is alone capable of producing this result.....the sole object of artillery employment is to render effective assistance to the Infantry." 

Fideliter


----------



## RCA (13 Feb 2001)

And your point is.....

As far as most commanders are concerned no one arm can go it on their own. I know the infantry like to think they can but that is a good way to get their ass waxed. 

And for the record the official role of the field artillery is "to destroy or neutralize the enemy with indirect fire as part of the all arms battle" and all gunners are fully aware of that role.

Part of the problem is the "walk a mile in my shoes" syndrome. In the reserves (especilly) there is virtually no interaction between arms to actually see what the other does. Everyone assumes they have the hardest job. I don‘t begrudge an infantyman walking everywhere with all his kit on only to stop dig a hole, sleep in it and carry on the next day doing the same. The armoured ride every where but when the shooting starts where to you hide. the grunt can jump in his hole but a tanker... In the artillery we were considered the second prioity target after nuclear systems. we see what arty can do and personally  I don‘t want to be under it. Engineers- mine and boobytrap clearing    
So we all have our crosses to bear.

As Red Green says " We have to all pull together"


----------



## JRMACDONALD (14 Feb 2001)

I forget who said it but:"Artillery lends dignity to what would , otherwise, be a brawl!" ( how s that for inf support, all you gunners!)


----------



## bossi (14 Feb 2001)

The Combined Arms Team - don‘t leave home without it!

One well-known Brigadier always phrases his requirements of the ideal infantryman as "athlete, stalker, marksman".  I always feel a little inclined to put it on a lower plane and to say that the qualities of a successful poacher, cat burglar, and gunman would content me.
Sir Archibald Wavell, "The Training of the Army for War", February 1933

Ten thousand cavalry only amount to ten thousand men.  No one has ever died in battle through being bitten or kicked by a horse.  It is men who do whatever gets done in battle.
Xenophon:  Speech to the Greek army after the defeat of Cyrus at Cunaxa, 401 B.C.

Artillery without targets is in a fair way to become a target itself.
Major General Orlando Ward, USA:  Letter, 1965

(sorry - couldn‘t find anything half-decent about engineers or signals)


----------



## Yard Ape (14 Feb 2001)

What‘s wrong with 
" Follow the Sapper"

As far as rivalries go, I see them being greater between regiments of the same arm, than between the different arms themselves.  Just ask an RCR to rank a Vandoo against an engineer and a gunner.


----------



## Mud Crawler (14 Feb 2001)

Just ask a Vandoo to rank an RCR against an engineer and a gunner


----------



## Argyll_2347 (14 Feb 2001)

We (army cadets) have a HUGE rivalry with the Air Cadets!!!  We dispise them! They have so many people, because air cadets isn‘t as hard to be in.

Army FOREVER!!!

Albainn Gu-Brath


----------



## Yard Ape (15 Feb 2001)

Indeed, Mud Crawler!  You prove my point.

  Yard Ape


----------



## Tom Barrett (25 Feb 2001)

In response to RCA.  I believe the saying goes "its the job of the Artillery to spur the Infantry on, by dropping rounds short.  Or as they used to say in 1 RCHA, "There are 2 types of people, Gunners and Targets."


----------



## RCA (25 Feb 2001)

And so nobody  gets the wrong impression we never drop rounds short (or wingers in our parlance), it is all aimed fire.


----------



## ender (13 Mar 2001)

Hey, everyone know the Engineers are the best.
(First in , Last out)

Whoever said that the infantry can win the war all by itself is full of crap.  Without us, you can‘t get anywhere. (but even engineers need food and bullets and stuff, so we also depend on other people)

But I don‘t claim that my infantry skills are better than that of the infantry. (although we did kick the butts of some infantry units at the Brigade competition- but I digress)  We all have our specializtion. (mine doesn‘t involve spelling)

In my limited experience, it seems to me that sappers and infantry get along ok, but we don‘t like the artillery or the armoured too much.  But we are all united in the fight against the evil service battalions!


----------

