# ATTN people to apply for ROTP Pilot



## RyGuy009 (19 Nov 2008)

i would just like to know how many people who apply for pilot with the CF actually have flying experience? i have been to the recruiting centre many times, and the guys there says the number one most applyed trade is pilot. do people apply for pilot without knowing if they are physically fit for it? i am 18, i have been flying for 3 years now, solo'd at 15, and have a night rated private pilot licence with a CAT1 unrestrcted medical for Transport Canada. i have been told by the recruiting centre that i pose an advantage to the next guy who haesnt ever flown.
Just curiouse

Thanks


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## aesop081 (19 Nov 2008)

People with comercial tickets or airline experience have failed the selection process so you dont have much of an advantage over anyone else.


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## aesop081 (19 Nov 2008)

Niteshade said:
			
		

> I will say that those three people I know who are CF pilots, all had their private license before joining the Forces.



And that proves what ?

Quite a few of the pilots i have flown with so far had no previous experience.


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## dwalter (19 Nov 2008)

Your addage also doesn't cover those pilots who join the forces with the desire to fly rotary wing or multi engine aircraft. Most pilots in the forces don't get to be fighter pilots, and not all of them want to be fighter pilots. Dare I say even if I could be a fighter pilot qualifications wise, I would not want to be one. Put me behind the controls of a Hercules or Buffalo any day thank you very much.


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## SupersonicMax (20 Nov 2008)

Experience can't hurt, if you use it properly.  However, if you take your experience and sit on it, it can do just the opposite to you.  In my experience in the training system, I've seen people fail with a commercial license and an Airline Transport Pilot License (3000+ hrs guy) and people rock the courses without a license.  Personally, I didn't have anything prior to PFT.  After PFT, I've flown quite a bit and got quite a few hours on small piston aircraft.  I built up on this experience and used it so I could use tricks I've learned before.  The important thing is not to go there and think you already know everything about flying.  No matter how many civilian hours you have or how good a civilian pilot you are, military flying is different and the standard you are expected to perform is quite higher  than any civilian flight school will demand of you.  Plus, the amount of hours you get to achieve the standards are limited.  It is definately not impossible, but it can be challenging.  

In the end, that's your attitude towards learning new stuff that will say if you'll be a pilot in the CF or not.  Not the experience you had before you joined.

ID:  Have you ever flown in a Herc, Buff or a Hornet?  Have you been in a Squadron?  If not, I suggest you keep an open mind and see what you really like after having some experience in the Multi, helo and/or Fighter world.  It may change you opinion and choices.


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## SupersonicMax (20 Nov 2008)

I'd put my money on the one that is the keenest on learning things.  Most likely the one with no experience, because he knows that he has a lot to learn, vice the one that has a buch of experience that may think he has it all already.


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## Corey Darling (20 Nov 2008)

I've only gotten as far as ASC. So not much knowledge on this stuff yet, but here is what I've learned.

At ASC, they do ask if you have a License or not, and if so, how many hours you have in what types.

For ASC, there is a lot of debate on whether or not prior experience can help you. There have been lots of people who have passed with no prior experience. In fact, in my group, a guy still in grade 11 passed, with zero flying time, and seemingly less knowledge of aviation in general.

However, i still think prior experience will be an asset there. I would be really nervous if I had never flown before, and had to hop into the sim for the first time and basically learn the controls in 4 hours.

I would expect that to adversely affect my performance.  Where as with some experience, I could just hop in, feel at home, and concentrate on flying at perfectly as possible.

Its not like prior experience can hurt you, but as has been mentioned, you certainly don't need it to succeed.


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## Niteshade (20 Nov 2008)

This is about education... whether it is the CF or not is somewhat irrelevant.

Basically the argument is, can a person succeed with prior training or not?
We all know you can succeed without prior training. It happens all the time.

We prepare for BMQ by doing self guided PT - granted we can show up without, but we stand a better chance of succeeding if we do so beforehand.
A hunter may make for a better soldier, he may not. But he will have some marksmanship skills down. He has a better chance of knowing how to maintain his weapon.
A motorcyclist with some experience will learn how to ride on the track more easily than someone with no experience.
A pilot with previous experience surely should be able to learn CF piloting more easily.

There will always be the case where the experienced flunks, and the novice aces the exam. But in all honesty, isn't the statistic that the experienced stands a better chance of succeeding? Why else would the CF hire people who have degrees in related fields?

Nites


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## SupersonicMax (20 Nov 2008)

Niteshade said:
			
		

> A pilot with previous experience surely should be able to learn CF piloting more easily.



Not according to my 2 years spent in the training system so far...  Lots of experienced pilots almost failed the course and didn't do so well.  IMO, the false feeling of security that these hours brought made them do worst than these without experience.  Flying is about learning motor skills, not learning something out of the book.  The standards at which military pilots are much higher than those of the civlian equivalent.  I have yet to see a Canadian civilian pilot flying a heavy (C-17) with 300 hours TT.  

But hey, I must be wrong...


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## dwalter (20 Nov 2008)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> ID:  Have you ever flown in a Herc, Buff or a Hornet?  Have you been in a Squadron?  If not, I suggest you keep an open mind and see what you really like after having some experience in the Multi, helo and/or Fighter world.  It may change you opinion and choices.



Negative, however I have flown light aircraft. I was going to be doing my commercial licence before I found out how much it cost and opted for university instead. What I stated was more an opinion as to my own personal character. I am not aggressive, and so wouldn't make for a very good fighter pilot. I'm also medically unfit due to my vision right now, and even though they are accepting some pilots with laser surgery now, that's still a no go for fighters anyways last I heard, and it makes sense. 

I wasn't trying to create an illusion that I have experience with military aviation (Besides flying around a CF-18 in Flight Sim ), but it's like every job. Just because a certain qualification exists, doesn't mean everyone who can go for the training actually wants to.


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## SupersonicMax (20 Nov 2008)

Intelligent Design said:
			
		

> I'm also medically unfit due to my vision right now, and even though they are accepting some pilots with laser surgery now, that's still a no go for fighters anyways last I heard, and it makes sense.



Never heard of that rumor.  AFAIK, V2 or laser are accepted for all CF pilots (I heard PRK is the only acceptable method though).  One of my friend is actually going to get it done in the near future and he's doing his Hornet OTU in the spring.


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## dwalter (20 Nov 2008)

Wow, that is interesting. PRK is the older of the two surgery styles, and LASIK is quite a bit more advanced, with a shorter healing time, less steroid treatment, less side effects, and less chance for reversion after surgery. PRK also means they permanently remove a layer of the eye under the cornea. My optometrist told me about it, and said that removing that layer doesn't seem to have any ill effects, but they still haven't finished going in depth into testing the effects of that. Didn't PRK also dull night vision? 

That LASIK is the accepted one I can't actually confirm one way or another because at the CFRC they only told me "laser surgery" was good to go for pilots now, they didn't specify which 'flavour'. I just put those facts up based on what my optometrist told me about both options.


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## SupersonicMax (20 Nov 2008)

That is possible that LASIK may be okay.  I had this info 2nd hand.


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## benny88 (20 Nov 2008)

RyGuy009 said:
			
		

> i would just like to know how many people who apply for pilot with the CF actually have flying experience? i have been to the recruiting centre many times, and the guys there says the number one most applyed trade is pilot. do people apply for pilot without knowing if they are physically fit for it? i am 18, i have been flying for 3 years now, solo'd at 15, and have a night rated private pilot licence with a CAT1 unrestrcted medical for Transport Canada. i have been told by the recruiting centre that i pose an advantage to the next guy who haesnt ever flown.
> Just curiouse
> 
> Thanks



I too have a CAT1, but it doesn't transfer over and you have to still do the military aircrew medical. A license will show the recruiting centre that you are dedicated enough to become a pilot to spend some money on it, but I would say it's not a major advantage. Where did you manage to solo before 16?  :rules:


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## aesop081 (20 Nov 2008)

Niteshade said:
			
		

> This is about education... whether it is the CF or not is somewhat irrelevant.



Just keep talking yourself stupid......just keep it up


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## CEEBEE501 (20 Nov 2008)

benny88 said:
			
		

> I too have a CAT1, but it doesn't transfer over and you have to still do the military aircrew medical. A license will show the recruiting centre that you are dedicated enough to become a pilot to spend some money on it, but I would say it's not a major advantage. Where did you manage to solo before 16?  :rules:



I saw this story on Global BC 2-3 years ago about a 15 year old flying to Canada with his instructor so that he can get his PPL(which he did), but it seams the rules have changed, according to the TSB website.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part4/menu.htm


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## Corey Darling (20 Nov 2008)

> Where did you manage to solo before 16?  Read the rules!



You are legal to solo at 14 actually, have been for at least a decade.


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## Lumber (20 Nov 2008)

There's not enough room in this forum for all you pilots and your egos!

Ready Aye Ready!


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## benny88 (20 Nov 2008)

Corey Darling said:
			
		

> You are legal to solo at 14 actually, have been for at least a decade.



Ah right you are, my mistake. I thought for sure it was 16.


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## CEEBEE501 (20 Nov 2008)

According to this its 16
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part4/menu.htm


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## Marshall (20 Nov 2008)

16 seems still young to pilot a plane or such.. I never would of expected it to be that young. But I am not educated in the ways of the wing I suppose


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## benny88 (20 Nov 2008)

CEEBEE501 said:
			
		

> According to this its 16
> http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part4/menu.htm



16 to hold your license, but 14 for student pilot permit, with which you can solo.


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## Folgers (21 Nov 2008)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> That is possible that LASIK may be okay.  I had this info 2nd hand.


Yes, LASIK is acceptable, however I was told it's only the IntraLase LASIK method that's accepted. I found this out while going through the pilot application process and having just recently gotten the surgery (I had PRK). Always best to have this double and triple confirmed though if you're personally going this route.


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## KingKikapu (21 Nov 2008)

If memory serves me correctly the notion was the flap could somehow shift under high acceleration.  I have a friend who was looking into applying for the space program (brilliant scientist/engineer), and lasik was a concern at the time for this very reason.  Personally, I think their concerns were unfounded.  Maybe under ejection conditions, but otherwise I have a hard time seeing that one as realistic.


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## Marshall (21 Nov 2008)

KingKikapu said:
			
		

> If memory serves me correctly the notion was the flap could somehow shift under high acceleration.  I have a friend who was looking into applying for the space program (brilliant scientist/engineer), and lasik was a concern at the time for this very reason.  Personally, I think their concerns were unfounded.  Maybe under ejection conditions, but otherwise I have a hard time seeing that one as realistic.



A friend of mine joined last year, and had a terrible time because she had had multiple LASIK surgeries over the years. The person applied for Navy, I believe they wanted the person to get the military-desired LASIK surgery or army was a no-go.. I do not know if the person got the surgery though because during the time I was boggled by a school and all that jumbo.


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## KingKikapu (21 Nov 2008)

Your friend also might be screwed.  For each surgery, you need a specific amount of cornea tissue to get the job done.  Even lasik takes some away, leaving you less for the next round.  It doesn't take too many operations before the possibility of doing another is zippo.  Chances are I will never be able to get PRK eye surgery again when I grow old.


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## Marshall (21 Nov 2008)

KingKikapu said:
			
		

> Your friend also might be screwed.  For each surgery, you need a specific amount of cornea tissue to get the job done.  Even lasik takes some away, leaving you less for the next round.  It doesn't take too many operations before the possibility of doing another is zippo.  Chances are I will never be able to get PRK eye surgery again when I grow old.



I remember being told that, and that the third surgery was at high odds to be problematic. Hopefully they hold out for good, but that looks iffy. I will have to ask her the next time we speak.


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## Barts (21 Nov 2008)

Folgers said:
			
		

> Yes, LASIK is acceptable, however I was told it's only the IntraLase LASIK method that's accepted. I found this out while going through the pilot application process and having just recently gotten the surgery (I had PRK). Always best to have this double and triple confirmed though if you're personally going this route.



According to the AMA directive, PRK, LASEK or LASIK (either wavefront guided, or conventional) is permissible for aircrew applicants and CTs.  Same goes for current aircrew other than pilot.  Current pilots may undergo only the wavefront guided variants of these procedures.


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## KingKikapu (21 Nov 2008)

Barts said:
			
		

> According to the AMA directive, PRK, LASEK or LASIK (either wavefront guided, or conventional) is permissible for aircrew applicants and CTs.  Same goes for current aircrew other than pilot.  Current pilots may undergo only the wavefront guided variants of these procedures.



I bet you would be hard-pressed to find non-wavefront guided setups today.  From a physics standpoint, you would be a moron to do ignore that advantage.


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## Barts (21 Nov 2008)

KingKikapu said:
			
		

> I bet you would be hard-pressed to find non-wavefront guided setups today.  From a physics standpoint, you would be a moron to do ignore that advantage.



Very true.  I just listed the acceptable procedures for the sake of accuracy.  Although the directive is new (Mar 08), people have been getting surgery for years.

My PRK was more than 2.5 years ago now.


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## RyGuy009 (21 Nov 2008)

benny88 said:
			
		

> I too have a CAT1, but it doesn't transfer over and you have to still do the military aircrew medical. A license will show the recruiting centre that you are dedicated enough to become a pilot to spend some money on it, but I would say it's not a major advantage. Where did you manage to solo before 16?  :rules:


Yeah, I know it doesnt transfer over, but atleast I have an idea with my vfitness (vision etc). i Solo'd at Springbank Airport, just outside of Calgary.


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## dwalter (21 Nov 2008)

The surgery I was looking into is wavefront guided, however I have to wait another year and a half or so before I can get it anyways, and who knows what kinds of breakthroughs might come out by then! They might invent gene therapy that can alter the shape of your eyes for all I know haha. It seems laser surgery has been making nothing but strides over the last few years as it has been gaining popularity.


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## KingKikapu (21 Nov 2008)

Intelligent Design said:
			
		

> The surgery I was looking into is wavefront guided, however I have to wait another year and a half or so before I can get it anyways, and who knows what kinds of breakthroughs might come out by then! They might invent gene therapy that can alter the shape of your eyes for all I know haha. It seems laser surgery has been making nothing but strides over the last few years as it has been gaining popularity.


Truthfully, I don't see them being able to do much more with the technology on the accuracy end of things.  The tracking system is very accurate and using phased pulse correction ensures a custom profile for everyone.  About the only thing they can do to make it more accurate is an adaptive optics suite on the ccd to correct for things like turbulence or alcohols wafting in the air between the sensor and the eye (frankly overkill in my opinion).

Bionic eyes would be pretty sweet though.  Ghost in the Shell-style.


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## dwalter (22 Nov 2008)

Mmm, bionic eyes that let you swap to night vision, thermal vision, and have your own personal HUD as well. How cool would that be? Of course we'd have to think of the ethical and human issues behind that. Is it really right to replace human parts with machines, just for the sake of making us better?

<Cough>Borg<cough>


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## jathukor (27 Aug 2011)

I have heard this many times. 
In the ROTP application one puts three choices such as #1: pilot #2: AERE #3: ANAV. Is there any truth to the fact that, given they pass ACS, one could still be offered AERE or ANAV over the 1st choice pilot?

I have completed my first year in university and have done very well. I am concerned that if I put AERE as my 2nd choice, I could be offered that over pilot, even if I pass ACS.

I am sure many people have this question in mind and has not found a sufficient answer.
Thanks


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## Corey Darling (27 Aug 2011)

Yes, even with a pass at acs, they could offer you some other trade.

You don't need to put down 3 choices. If you're dead set on pilot and won't accept anything else, then just put down pilot.

(still doesn't mean its a sure thing though)

Corey


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## Melbatoast (30 Aug 2011)

Ryanaaas said:
			
		

> Yeah, I know it doesnt transfer over, but at least I have an idea with my vfitness (vision etc). i Solo'd at Springbank Airport, just outside of Calgary.



It doesn't transfer because you can have a CAT 1 from TC and still fail the aircrew medical at AUMB in Toronto.  It's more in depth and could find things not apparent beforehand.  Yes you have an _idea_ of your fitness but that's it.

As you are at the application stage, your PFE will get you few points on your application under the applicable skills and experience tab.  For a hyper competitive occupation like pilot that's great, but most of your points come from leadership experience and potential.  The most important thing applicants forget (in my opinion) is that they are FIRST applying to be an officer, a leader, in the Canadian Forces.  Be passionate and excited about that (excel at cadets, in depth community involvement, whatever), mention and document your PFE for the bonus points, and you'll have a good application.


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