# Landlord evicting military family shifts blame



## formerarmybrat23 (3 Jun 2007)

Landlord evicting military family shifts blame
By GLENN KAUTH, SPECIAL TO SUN MEDIA
From the Edmonton Sun
http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Edmonton/2007/06/03/4230394-sun.html
     


A landlord who is evicting a local soldier and his family says it's the military's job to make sure its troops can find affordable housing, not his. 

"That is the Canadian government not taking care of their dirty dishwashing," said Alain Phaneuf, owner of the two-bedroom home Cpl. Jeremy Augustine and his family must vacate by the end of August. 

Earlier this month, his wife, Joan Couling, told Sun Media she and Augustine may have to head east if they can't find a reasonable place to live. Since then, she's been looking for housing, but the cheapest place she found wouldn't take the family's two pugs. 

"I feel sorry for her and all that. But everyone is out for themselves, not to protect the world," said Phaneuf. 

Couling, 30, was able to get a one-month extension on the eviction after she challenged a letter from Phaneuf saying he was selling their house in the city's northwest. She argued he couldn't make them leave since he hadn't sold the house yet. 

  

Instead, Phaneuf is having his father move in at the end of August so they can renovate the home in preparation for a sale. Meanwhile, Augustine will return from duty in Afghanistan later this summer to find himself looking for a new place to live. 

Couling's struggles come as local soldiers find it increasingly hard to get housing in Edmonton. Strathcona Legion president Ted Gazley, a former soldier who lived in military housing in the 1960s, says it's time for the government to come forward with assistance for local soldiers. 

"We need our government to step in there and help them out," he said.


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## Roy Harding (3 Jun 2007)

formerarmybrat23 said:
			
		

> Landlord evicting military family shifts blame
> By GLENN KAUTH, SPECIAL TO SUN MEDIA
> From the Edmonton Sun
> http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Edmonton/2007/06/03/4230394-sun.html
> ...



I feel for this family - very little.

I just moved from Edmonton - yes, it's expensive, but on the _salary CF members make_, it's _affordable_.

I lived through the "soldiers at food bank" years - some of those years I was a Private, with three kids, and the wife was a stay at home Mom.  We didn't go to the food bank, and knew no-one who did - we also didn't own a 32" TV (a big deal at the time), an extra vehicle, or other luxury items.  The pay raises in the '80s and '90s made the CF a much more financially attractive career choice.

Yes, Edmonton is an expensive place, but I REALLY don't think that it's beyond the financial capability of most CF members - you don't get any sympathy from me.

Fire at will.


Roy


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## Blakey (3 Jun 2007)

> Earlier this month, his wife, Joan Couling, told Sun Media she and Augustine may have to _head east_ if they can't find a reasonable place to live. Since then, she's been looking for housing, _but the cheapest place she found wouldn't take the family's *two pugs*._



No objection from this corner Roy.

East?, as in East end Edmonton or East coast Canada....
As well, maybe some priorities are mixed up here?, not wanting to give up two dogs so you can have a roof over your head?, kind of misleading headline I might say, "Landlord evicting military *family* shifts blame". I was expecting to read "Soldier and wife with seven children...."

N.B. Emphasis mine.


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## formerarmybrat23 (3 Jun 2007)

I don't think its a question of priorities. First off pets are not something that should be given up when the going is tough. When you get one they are yours and must keep them until illness or death. Thats just my thoughts on that. Secondly, Edmonton has a very low vacancy rate and soaring rents. I had read last year that a few people died from exposure. They couldn't find any place to live and were forced to live in campers in parks.

Having just come back from Alberta, I know that although you may net about 40,000 (minimum) a year, a two bedroom in Edmonton can be anywhere from 900-2000/month. Most cases that does'nt include anything. Its getting very cut throat out there. Anyone who can't hack it is left behind. I cannot imagine being posted there, knowing you cannot leave, feeling like theres no where to go. I guess having been out that way I have more sympathy.


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## aesop081 (3 Jun 2007)

formerarmybrat23 said:
			
		

> I guess having been out that way I have more sympathy.



i have live there too for several years and i have no sympathy.  People in other locations pay well above Edmonton's prices and manage to have a place to live.  I know what you are saying about Pets but for cripes sake...when faced with a choice of having a home or not........its an easy one. Military salaries arent like what they used to be.  Maybe someone should ask what size their TV is, how often they eat out and how many gas guzzling pickups or SUVs the family drives.......i have seen those kinds of people.....


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## armyvern (3 Jun 2007)

formerarmybrat23 said:
			
		

> I don't think its a question of priorities. First off pets are not something that should be given up when the going is tough. When you get one they are yours and must keep them until illness or death. Thats just my thoughts on that.



Hmm, I'm going to have to agree with Maslow (Google it) on this one. When it comes to shelter (a necessity of life) for your family or pets??

Good-bye birdie, without a single doubt in my mind. That's just my thoughts.


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## BernDawg (3 Jun 2007)

Roger that.  I love my dog too but if it comes to her or a house I would have to go with the families security first.


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## TheHead (3 Jun 2007)

I feel for the soldier coming home but he's a CPL in Afghanistan, he's far from Poor.   The only thing keeping this soldier from having a home are those two dogs.  His wife needs to sum up and make sure this soldier has a roof over his head when he gets back.


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## Roy Harding (4 Jun 2007)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> i have live there too for several years and i have no sympathy.  People in other locations pay well above Edmonton's prices and manage to have a place to live.  I know what you are saying about Pets but for cripes sake...when faced with a choice of having a home or not........its an easy one. Military salaries arent like what they used to be.  Maybe someone should ask what size their TV is, how often they eat out and how many gas guzzling pickups or SUVs the family drives.......i have seen those kinds of people.....



CDN Aviator - is that you??  It's rare for you to not capitalize and punctuate properly.

Just wondering.

I take your point - pets ARE, indeed, members of the family.  I have four cats, and an English Mastiff - they take a fair chunk out of the budget (especially the Mastiff - what she can't chew hasn't been thought of yet).

HOWEVER - when we were raising our kids, we DIDN'T have the pets - we couldn't afford them.  My kids "got by" with a single cat, which was loved by all of them - the other three cats and the Mastiff came later.

I guess my point is - MY POINT IS that members of the CF make a reasonable wage - it wasn't always so, but it is true today.  You need to make your life choices within that economic envelope - even in Edmonton.  I understand that Edmonton is a really expensive place to purchase a home - I feel for everybody who is posted there - BUT; nobody in the CF is hurtin' that bad that they can't afford a decent place to live - that decent place may not include the option to keep pets, and that is unfortunate - but it's not worthy of headlines such as "Landlord Evicting Military".



Roy


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## niner domestic (4 Jun 2007)

Well according to the Alberta Landlord and Tenant Act, the landlord has complied with the terms in which to terminate (not evict) a lease.  We don't know the terms of the above lease, but assuming for argument sake that it was a yearly lease and that contained within the terms of the lease are the clauses that afford for termination by either party, the tenant has had 90 days *plus* and additional 30 days by which to find alternative accommodation.  Obviously week-to-week leases and month-to-month will have different terms for notification.  http://www.acjnet.org/docs/landten/Nov04-end.pdf

This type of termination of a lease is know has a tenant no fault and therefore should not affect future rental and checks by landlords.  Why this person is having difficulties outside of what has been stated, has not been discussed (or research by the journalist) and I'm leaning towards that there is more to them not being able to find suitable accommodation than just the issues of the dogs and cost.  That does not make this story anymore newsworthy (and moving east is still not going to resolve the dog in a rental problem as not many Provinces have a "fluffy" law as Ontario does and just looking at the average rents here in Ottawa, they aren't that much cheaper than Edmonton so I fail to see where there will be a benefit to the dramatic announcement of having to move east).  

I'm finding that the choice of wording by the MSM is again, a mechanism to sell papers and is being used as a springboard for yet another political commentary about the military.


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## medaid (4 Jun 2007)

They've obviously not lived in BC before... the lower mainland is a killer for rent.


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## Wookilar (4 Jun 2007)

I think we all pretty much agree here.

We lived in St.Albert on a Cpl's wage and a part-time wage from 9D, with 2 kids and 2 cars. We certainly weren't going to the Keg every payday for supper, but Gusto's was definitely on the itinerary. And if they think a couple of pooches are expensive, they've obviously never kept a 6' teenage male in the house.

Wook

edit: for spelling, really should pick up that skill one day.


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## Yrys (4 Jun 2007)

Wookilar said:
			
		

> And if they think a couple of pooches are expensive, they've obviously never kept a 6' teenage male in the house.



 ;D


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## armyvern (4 Jun 2007)

Wookilar said:
			
		

> And if they think a couple of pooches are expensive, they've obviously never kept a 6' teenage male in the house.
> 
> Wook



Or a Veronica!!  ;D


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## GAP (4 Jun 2007)

Wookilar said:
			
		

> I think we all pretty much agree here.
> 
> We lived in St.Albert on a Cpl's wage and a part-time wage from 9D, with 2 kids and 2 cars. We certainly weren't going to the Keg every payday for supper, but Gusto's was definitely on the itinerary. And if they think a couple of pooches are expensive, they've obviously never kept a 6' teenage male in the house.
> 
> ...



Try it with 6 + pets, etc....leashing them helps...(the kids)


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## M Feetham (5 Jun 2007)

I have a couple of questions. First off if said Cpl is coming back from a tour in AFG, he should be coming back with a fair chunk of change in pocket correct? Why not take that money and use it for a down-payment on a home. Doesn't have to be the Taj-ma hall or anything, but 2+ bedrooms, kitchen, dining room, basement can't be all that bad. Secondly, have they inquired about Q's, I mean sure some of them are beat up and need some serious work, but at least it is a roof over their heads, right? I have moved from Halifax to St Jean, prices between the two are comparable, not outside my means. 16 yrs in, MS NCIOP. 2 Kids, cat, 2 dogs, gecko. Wife has not worked steady since we arrive in Quebec, the language laws and need to be bilingual play havoc with the ability to find work in your trade of choice for spouses. We are posted to BC and will be moving into a Q that is about half the size of the house we are in now. Oh well, you do what you have to do. We can't afford to buy in Esquimalt, so we rent. The choice is easy, go with what you can afford. If this guy is a Cpl he should have enough experience in life and the military to be able to ask the right questions. 
That's my rant.
Cheers, Feet


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## George Wallace (5 Jun 2007)

Very good on ya!  M Feetham.

Have you ever been to Edmonton?  The number of PMQs are rather limited.  It was an Air Base and then the Liberals moved in a Bde (4,000 or so soldiers).  No new PMQs have been built.  In fact, many old ones have been sold off.  

So you figure a Cpl, who has been paying his paycheque on rent, can suddenly scrap up enough for a mortgage on a 500K home and still provide the necessities for his family?

 :  Right!


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## camochick (6 Jun 2007)

Wow, i love how everyday military families are looking more and more like a bunch of charity cases. I sure hope the public knows that we are a well paid military , especially during tours. Yes, Edmonton is expensive, yes it's hard to buy a house here, yes the rent is outrageous, yes it is impossible to get a PMQ here (unless you're posted in) but lack of financial planning on this woman's part shouldn't be anyones issue but her own. Life sucks, get a freaking helmet.  >


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## Scoobie Newbie (6 Jun 2007)

The difference between the military and public sector I think is that you have more of a choice in the public sector vice the military.  If they sent me to Edmonton for whatever reason I'd be living in a cardboard box.  I'm good to go for MB but Alberta no way.


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## proudnurse (6 Jun 2007)

+1 Camochick

Here is my point of view, also, after I read the story. The thing that stuck out for me, mostly is when they mentioned the "Pug" Dog. Being that they are purebred dogs, I'm sure that it was not cheap to purchase the pet to begin with. Also, coming from myself that is a single parent... juggling 2 jobs to make the ends meet, which I'm happy to do because I have to take care of my family. And my rent was paid on time as it always is. Sometimes, it's all about cutting back and 'downsizing' where you need to, to have that roof over your head. If it comes down to also, getting rid of the family pet, to put priorities (like your children) first so they can have a roof over there head.. that is what you gotta do.

I think what you said is the bottom line camo... life sucks, get a helmet! 

~Rebecca


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## tabernac (6 Jun 2007)

M Feetham said:
			
		

> First off if said Cpl is coming back from a tour in AFG, he should be coming back with a fair chunk of change in pocket correct? Why not take that money and use it for a down-payment on a home. Doesn't have to be the Taj-ma hall or anything, but 2+ bedrooms, kitchen, dining room, basement can't be all that bad.



As someone who live in Edmonton, and recently had to help look for an inexpensive property, I can honestly say that you are way out of your lane (on civvie homes that is, I wouldn't know about the PMQs). A 2 bedroom condo goes for around 250k. And that's a deal, and the condo is probably in real bad shape. Want a (rundown) house? Add 75-100k. Living in Edmonton is insanely expensive, hence the people living around Edmonton in tents.

Just want to help...


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## a_majoor (6 Jun 2007)

While living in Edmonton is very expensive, don't Regular Force personnel have PDA (Post Differential Allowance) to help out? The article wasn't clear if the returning soldier is Reg or Reserve, but if he is a Reg, then "reasonable" housing shouldn't be beyond his means.

BTW, I'm with most of you here: get rid of the pets if you are in these circumstances.


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## MJP (6 Jun 2007)

a_majoor said:
			
		

> While living in Edmonton is very expensive, don't Regular Force personnel have PDA (Post Differential Allowance) to help out? The article wasn't clear if the returning soldier is Reg or Reserve, but if he is a Reg, then "reasonable" housing shouldn't be beyond his means.
> 
> BTW, I'm with most of you here: get rid of the pets if you are in these circumstances.



Nope no PLD or Living allowance in Edmonton.


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## tabernac (6 Jun 2007)

Why is there no living allowance in Edmonton?


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## BC Old Guy (6 Jun 2007)

cheeky_monkey said:
			
		

> Why is there no living allowance in Edmonton?



PLD allowance is calculated over a three year average, which means that it is not very up-to-date for locations that see very quick rises in cost of living. One part of the calculation is how expensive the location is compared to the CF average.  The other parts of the calculation are complicated, and relate to the Consumer Price Index for the country and for the specific location.  Housing, either owned or rented, is only one part of the calculation.

Since Edmonton's housing prices have started to go up mainly in the last 3 years, it is likely that the new costs have not been included in the calculation.

I have heard from people I consider reliable that the calculation is being redone, but it may take some time before we see the results, since it has to be sold to the Treasury Board, who don't always see things the same way we do.


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## gaspasser (6 Jun 2007)

formerarmybrat23 said:
			
		

> Landlord evicting military family shifts blame
> By GLENN KAUTH, SPECIAL TO SUN MEDIA
> From the Edmonton Sun
> http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Edmonton/2007/06/03/4230394-sun.html
> ...


The couple are *not* being evicted because they cannot pay the rent, they are being evicted because the landlord wants to sell the property.  Where did the big jump in logic come from the the soldier cannot afford accommodation? I've never lived in Edmonton but I've heard that housing is at a premium and costly.  But we are paid well and should be able to afford something out west??!! I agree that with himself coming home for overseas, he'll have a wallet full of money to afford a downpayment on something affordable.  The whole media thing is a moot point and they're {the media} just out to make the military look bad.
My 0.02


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## Blackadder1916 (6 Jun 2007)

An excerpt from a column in today's Edmonton Sun .
http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Edmonton/2007/06/06/4238150-sun.html


> Just how bad is this rental housing crisis? Real bad.
> How bad is this "affordable housing" crisis? Even worse.
> Going into 2006, says city housing director Jay Freeman, Edmonton had about 11,000 housing "units" that were, one way or another, subsidized or considered affordable housing.
> Of course they were 100% occupied by eligible low-income folks.
> ...



Affordable housing is a big issue in Alberta (not just Edmonton) right now.  Our economy is booming and with that success comes problems, one of them is housing.  It is interesting that when the brigade moved to Edmonton, a comment I heard often was that soldiers would be able to afford "more house" or at least be able to buy a house since Edmonton was so much cheaper than Calgary (and Calgary back then was still cheaper than most of the comparable markets in Canada) .  I believe I also heard something similiar in at least one briefing about the benefits of moving the brigade.  

As for the media looking to smear the military;  probably not.  This seems to me to be a housing story, very common these days locally (in Alberta).  My take is it is more likely that the soldier's wife contacted the reporter hoping that by presenting her problem in the press someone (another landlord, military authorities) would offer her a solution.  Happens often (and regularly) out here with others (not military), but the military is riding a crest of popularity these days, so yes, a reporter took advantage of a situation to get another piece printed with his byline.


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## the 48th regulator (6 Jun 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Very good on ya!  M Feetham.
> 
> Have you ever been to Edmonton?  The number of PMQs are rather limited.  It was an Air Base and then the Liberals moved in a Bde (4,000 or so soldiers).  No new PMQs have been built.  In fact, many old ones have been sold off.
> 
> ...




Uh George,

Let me see;

According to  DPPD.  at DND's site, a basic corporal 5A makes $4069.00, which I assume is before taxes, he would be making over $48,000 a year.  

Not bad as that is more than I make in my current civvy job;

Now let's move along to MLS and see what the average home goes for.

Homes around Edmonton area ranging between 100-200k

Quite an extensive list.

Now let us look at the Bank I used, which is available across Canada;

Scotiabank  Here are some of the latest rates

Zero down, I did it, and I live in Toronto, make less than what the husband makes, even if he were at the bottom of his rank, and am able to carry a mortgage that is affordable.  

It's tough, but I do it, as I am sure many others who are in the military.

Maybe these people should stop expecting to be spoon fed, and stop abusing the media for their own personal gain.

dileas

tess


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## Teflon (6 Jun 2007)

> Now let's move along to MLS and see what the average home goes for.
> 
> Homes around Edmonton area ranging between 100-200k
> 
> Quite an extensive list.



Just a point, none of those houses listed are in or relatively close to Edmonton - Wainwright is about 2hrs away (quite the long comute every morning and late afternoon - it's not even in local phone coverage. Neither is Barhead, Napa, Elk Point or any of the other small towns listed on that page. 

I'm pretty sure you would be hard pressed to find a house or even a condo for 100K to 200K in Edmonton


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## Journeyman (6 Jun 2007)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> *Let me see... *


Income, market, interest rates.... hang on, you didn't factor in......


....*the PUGS! * 

Another logic-based argument down the tubes


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## Blackadder1916 (6 Jun 2007)

Tess, I tried your link to the MLS search and the first property on the list is in Wainwright.  That's not a commute, that's a road move.

These may be more realistic.  Edmonton and *surrounding* counties.  Criteria used 100k - 200k, 2 or more BR.
Edmonton
http://www.mls.ca/PropertyResults.aspx?Mode=0&Page=1&vs=1&rlt=&cp=&pt=0&mp=100000-200000-0&mrt=-1-0-0&Beds=2-0&Baths=0-0&f=&ft=all&o=A&of=1&ps=10&ptgid=1&aid=6265&MapURL=%3fAreaID%3d8688

21 - Leduc County, 29 - Sturgeon County - St. Albert, 30 - Parkland County / Spruce Grove / Stony Plain
http://www.mls.ca/PropertyResults.aspx?Mode=0&Page=1&vs=1&rlt=&cp=&pt=0&mp=100000-200000-0&mrt=-1-0-0&Beds=2-0&Baths=0-0&f=&ft=all&o=A&of=1&ps=10&ptgid=1&aid=6284%2c6292%2c6294&MapURL=%3fAreaID%3d8688


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## the 48th regulator (6 Jun 2007)

Right on,

Thanks guys, being from Toronto, it is hard to imagine life outside of the city.

As for finding something for that amount, I think Blacky helped to prove my point.

dileas

tess


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## formerarmybrat23 (6 Jun 2007)

that MLS search is pretty disappointing. 100000-200,000 for what? a trailer park home, or a "condo conversion" (i.e nasty old apartments they got tired of renting) no thanks. I think her and those dogs would be better back east. Get a nice house lakeside with lots of acreage for that.  Its nuts out there!


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## camochick (6 Jun 2007)

I will have to agree with formerarmybrat23 on this, those properties are lame and not worth what they want for them. It's not as easy as it looks to buy a house out here. Even if you fine something affordable you have to be able to put an offer on it right away, and that offer has to be over the asking price, or you won't get the house. I had friends trying to buy houses in the 600k-800k range and it took them a good two or three months to "win" a house because 25-30 over the asking price wasn't getting them a house. My husband and i pay more than a mortgage to live in our condo type apartment, because we cannot afford to buy something that isn't a piece of crap. 

That being said, this woman is just a whiner who should do what the rest of us do and pick up a paper, or an apartment guide and start doing some foot work to find a place.


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## the 48th regulator (6 Jun 2007)

formerarmybrat23 said:
			
		

> that MLS search is pretty disappointing. 100000-200,000 for what? a trailer park home, or a "condo conversion" (i.e nasty old apartments they got tired of renting) no thanks. I think her and those dogs would be better back east. Get a nice house lakeside with lots of acreage for that.  Its nuts out there!



yeh,


Now that would sound dandy, if her husband were able to make a transfer.....call me cynical, but the house hunting might be alot easier.

dileas

tess


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## Spring_bok (6 Jun 2007)

Everything is linked to market value.  I have yet to hear someone complain about all the money they made selling their 3 bedroom  bungalow in Edmonton for over 300,000 dollars.  We can't post everyone to Gagetown just because house prices are lower.  Even if we did the demand would increase and this would drive the price up.


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## mover1 (6 Jun 2007)

just another example of the "y" generation as in "why me"


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## formerarmybrat23 (6 Jun 2007)

my dad is in gagetown. he bought a house there last year. As it seems everyone is. Everything within 20mins drive from the base has gone up quite a bit. good luck too all home buyers, I think I'll hold out until the baby boomers have all retired and are trying to sell their homes that should clear up the market everywhere.


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## armyvern (6 Jun 2007)

formerarmybrat23 said:
			
		

> my dad is in gagetown. he bought a house there last year. As it seems everyone is. Everything within 20mins drive from the base has gone up quite a bit. good luck too all home buyers, I think I'll hold out until the baby boomers have all retired and are trying to sell their homes that should clear up the market everywhere.



Sure it's gone up quite a bit...

I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that there are a crapload of troops coming home from operations over the next couple months with 6 months tax-free income...and all their overseas operational allowances burning holes in their pockets. 

Exactly as is the case for the young lady with the two pugs in Edmonton whose husband is returning from tour shortly. No offense, but they can afford accomodations...and I don't feel the least b it of sympathy for her or her plight. Not a single ounce.

Now some poor Private who's just getting posted out there with a wife and 3 kids, and no 6 month tax free income or allowances from coming off a tour...that's a whole 'nother situation entirely. This lady though is, quite simply, full of _El Toro Poo Poo_.


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## Greymatters (6 Jun 2007)

Im glad several people pointed out the limited hosuing issue.  Even if you have the money, its hard to find a place to live if the limited market is driving piles of garbage up in price. 

One question that hasnt been asked is: did the Corporal leave his family enough money to live on?  Even though a Corporal gets paid a good salary it doesnt do the family any good if the soldier keeps most of it with him overseas.  

(_And dont tell me this doesnt happen.  I saw numerous examples of it over a 20 year period...)_


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## Munxcub (6 Jun 2007)

Well despite the cost of living it's still quite popular...

My wife and I are buying a house in Kelowna and it's by no means "cheap" here. But we are making sacrifices and changing our lifestyles accordingly to make it possible. That coupled with a 40 year amortization on the mortgage makes buying a $310,000, 800 sq ft wartime house possible... Would I like a bigger house? Absolutely, but reality says I can only have a small one... so I deal.

Too many people live beyond their means and then cry when it doesn't work out, suck it up, do the math and don't expect any pitty from me. I've made the changes needed to survive, if you can't do that then I guess you won't survive.

Sorry it's just around here (Kelowna) the "Spoon feed me because the world owes me everything" attitude is so rampant that I could just scream. Personal accountability doesn't exist and I think it's bullsh*t. Pass the buck, it's easier then dealing with it yourself right?

</rant>


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## armyvern (6 Jun 2007)

GreyMatter said:
			
		

> Im glad several people pointed out the limited hosuing issue.  Even if you have the money, its hard to find a place to live if the limited market is driving piles of garbage up in price.
> 
> One question that hasnt been asked is: did the Corporal leave his family enough money to live on?  Even though a Corporal gets paid a good salary it doesnt do the family any good if the soldier keeps most of it with him overseas.
> 
> (_And dont tell me this doesnt happen.  I saw numerous examples of it over a 20 year period...)_



I'll assume that you are retired now. We live in the world of split-allotments when overseas now...your regular pay stays home and the allowances are shifted to the overseas account to avoid exactly the situation you describe above that used to be experienced.

What have I seen lately?? A couple of troops coming home to find all their regular pay completely gone (ie not a dime saved by the spouse while they were gone), all their credit cards (and in one case 2 new credit cards that didn't exist when he was deployed) all maxed out to the limit. No new furniture, or vehicle, or clothes etc to show for it...squat.

Good thing they had all that operational money from theatre still which they then had to use to pay of the bills their ignorant spouses had managed to rack up on absolutely nothing while they were deployed. Sad.


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## medaid (6 Jun 2007)

It sounds like the CF needs to teach spouses proper money management... it is just disgusting!


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## GAP (6 Jun 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I'll assume that you are retired now. We live in the world of split-allotments when overseas now...your regular pay stays home and the allowances are shifted to the overseas account to avoid exactly the situation you describe above that used to be experienced.
> 
> What have I seen lately?? A couple of troops coming home to find all their regular pay completely gone (ie not a dime saved by the spouse while they were gone), all their credit cards (and in one case 2 new credit cards that didn't exist when he was deployed) all maxed out to the limit. No new furniture, or vehicle, or clothes etc to show for it...squat.
> 
> Good thing they had all that operational money from theatre still which they then had to use to pay of the bills their ignorant spouses had managed to rack up on absolutely nothing while they were deployed. Sad.



good point....and I will bet it has occured in reverse also..


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## Roy Harding (6 Jun 2007)

MedTech said:
			
		

> It sounds like the CF needs to teach spouses proper money management... it is just disgusting!



In the mid-80's I was Rear Party, while my Regiment was in Cyprus.  A good buddy of mine knew "something was up", and contacted me - asking me to check in with his family.  (Contact was not that easy then - no email, no internet, no phone cards - we used something called CFARS (Canadian Forces Amateur Radio System) - basically a Ham radio link (look it up - it's for real)).

Well, I buzzed by his Q, and discovered it was EMPTY.  No furniture, no wife, no kids.  A further check (not by me - the grown-ups were involved by then) revealed - no bank account, no savings, no RRSP, but plenty of bills.  I contacted him (by the same CFARS system) and advised him that he should be receiving a "Dear John" fairly soon - he did.

It happens - and to be brutally honest, my buddy was no angel when it came to his familial responsibilities.  It's nothing new.

An interesting aside - my wife just called - we received a "package notification" from Canada Post in our mailbox yesterday.  As she was going into town today, I asked her to pick it up for me.  Apparently, she can't do that (despite having the same last name and address on her driver's license, health card, etcetera), without written authorization from me.  We've come a long way in protecting individuals - despite the inconvenience sometimes experienced.

For the record:  I don't think it's the CF's responsibility "to teach spouses proper money management" - our members are full grown men and women - they need to take care of themselves in these matters.


Roy


----------



## the 48th regulator (6 Jun 2007)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> For the record:  I don't think it's the CF's responsibility "to teach spouses proper money management" - our members are full grown men and women - they need to take care of themselves in these matters.
> 
> 
> Roy



Here here,

I agree 100%.

They may be wise to teach Members and their families what to do and not do, with regards to the media though!

dileas

tess


----------



## armyvern (6 Jun 2007)

MedTech said:
			
		

> It sounds like the CF needs to teach spouses proper money management... it is just disgusting!



Uh no sorry. One does not need a money management course to know better than that. Like was said earlier...there's a whole lot of "me, me, me" people out there now...and some of them happen to be married.

BTW, the one who got herself the 2 new credit cards to max out on _sweet-diddly-squat_ while he was away...is now looking for a new spouse. 

Oh...and word up, she insists HE was the bad guy in getting upset with her when "WE were making all that extra money while he was away." She's really cute too boys, and actually seems all sweet & innocent ... if one didn't know any better.


----------



## M Feetham (6 Jun 2007)

I don't know the Edmondon area although I have friends from there. In Halifax, most of the guys I know transit a fair bit, anywhere from 45 mins out side of town up the 1h:30mins. I am sure that if these folks were willing to look a little ways outside of the local area they should be able to find somthing. As far as the condition of the homes being sold. So what, invest in some second had tools or borrow them from a friend, pick one room at a time and fix it up yourself. I am not the greatest handyman in the world, but if I call a couple of buddies and say hey beer and pizza on me for helping with this little renovation. Usually you can get at least a medium size room dry walled and mudded in a day or less. A little personal initiative goes a long way. As well, you can go to any mortgage broker in the country and they will provide you with a free breakdown of what you can and cannot afford in housing. They will do up a debt vs income ratio for you as well. CISIP also has qualified financial cousnellors who will set you down and get a budget for you that will work very well if you stick to it. They also provide counselling for members and their spouses. There is stuff in place to help you just have to look for it  and ask for it.
Cheers. Feet


----------



## Roy Harding (6 Jun 2007)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Here here,
> 
> I agree 100%.
> 
> ...



Tess - you're right - they (the CF) may be wise to do so, but I don't think it's their responsibility - nor within their (the CF's) lane.

Families are NOT subject to the same discipline and regulations as members regarding speaking to the media - it's inconvenient (and frankly, galling, at times) - but that's the way it goes.

Despite my personal pique at individual examples, I don't have a problem with it in general.



Roy


----------



## Eagle_Eye_View (6 Jun 2007)

Its SISIP not CISIP.


----------



## GAP (6 Jun 2007)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> For the record:  I don't think it's the CF's responsibility "to teach spouses proper money management" - our members are full grown men and women - they need to take care of themselves in these matters.
> Roy



I think it should be offered in some form, prior to deploying....yeah, they're grownups, but.....


----------



## Roy Harding (6 Jun 2007)

GAP said:
			
		

> I think it should be offered in some form, prior to deploying....yeah, they're grownups, but.....



I hear your concern, GAP - but at what point does "our" responsibility for the troops stop?

I raised three sons - all excellent men, but I no longer "bail them out" when they overextend themselves.  I commiserate, I sympathize, I emphasize, I advise - but I don't pay their bills.

To me, the CF (and any military) is in a like position to their members - the CF can HELP with your personal life, but it can't DIRECT you how to live it.


Roy


----------



## camochick (6 Jun 2007)

M feetham, it's easy for you to say it's easy to get a house in Edmonton because you don't live here. Sure I could buy way outside of town (it would have to be wayyyyyyyyyyy cause houses in the surrounding area's are still insanely pricey) but I would have to give up my job, because we have one vehicle and hubby and i can't afford to be driving an hour and half to Edmonton two-four times a day. Sure I could buy a dump, are you volunteering to come fix it up because right now my husband and I are both busy and don't have the time to be fixing an overpriced shack up. It's easy to tell people what they should be doing when you're not the one who has to do it. 

As for money management, i managed to put a decent chunk of change away in the bank while hubby was gone, while i saw and heard people spend most of the tour money with only some new clothes and a nice entertainment center to show for it. We're all grown ups and we should all be able to manage our money. If you can't well, too bad, you make your bed, you Lay in it.


----------



## GAP (6 Jun 2007)

Sometimes when the issues get verbalized in a more formal setting, they tend to get greater consideration. 

eg: Try telling your wife she is doing something the wrong way and see what kind of reaction you get.....now watch in amazement when your neighbor/mechanic/etc tells her essentially the same thing, and the credibility just flows.....


----------



## the 48th regulator (6 Jun 2007)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> Tess - you're right - they (the CF) may be wise to do so, but I don't think it's their responsibility - nor within their (the CF's) lane.
> 
> Families are NOT subject to the same discipline and regulations as members regarding speaking to the media - it's inconvenient (and frankly, galling, at times) - but that's the way it goes.
> 
> ...



hehe,

I meant that as a sarcastic dig. 

However, if you think about it.  She has created quite a bit of damage to the CF image.  Be it that the military does not care for the families at home, or that we have whiney spouses that expect privelages, etc etc.

I think it may do the CF some good to work on this aspect.  Loose lips sink ships...

dileas

tess


----------



## armyvern (6 Jun 2007)

camochick said:
			
		

> As for money management, i managed to put a decent chunk of change away in the bank while hubby was gone, while i saw and heard people spend most of the tour money with only some new clothes and a nice entertainment center to show for it. We're all grown ups and we should all be able to manage our money. If you can't well, too bad, you make your bed, you Lay in it.



Good on you Camochick. Some people simply are more mature than others, and make wise choices with priorities in the right spots. Seems like your husband married one of them!!

I have to say, this time last year, I stood out behind clothing stores having a smoke and watched a certain Pl WO passing on the afternoon "O Group" to his personnel before dismissing them for the evening. His Pl, at that time, had his augmentees for their upcoming deployment formed up with the remainder of the Coy pers. He spent a full 10 minutes emphasizing very loudly (thus I could hear it) how not a single one of them should NOT own their own home after returning from their tour. He told them what to do, and how to go about it. At the end of it all, he flat out told them that if they returned and DID not purchase their own home with some of the cash they'd be making ... they were flat-out idiots who's priorities in life were all screwed up. I agree with him.

I have no doubt that most of his troops _listened_ to his sage words of advice that day. It doesn't have to be formal to work. Sometimes a blunt "get a grip on reality" works just as well.


----------



## medaid (6 Jun 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Uh no sorry. One does not need a money management course to know better than that. Like was said earlier...there's a whole lot of "me, me, me" people out there now...and some of them happen to be married.
> 
> BTW, the one who got herself the 2 new credit cards to max out on _sweet-diddly-squat_ while he was away...is now looking for a new spouse.
> 
> Oh...and word up, she insists HE was the bad guy in getting upset with her when "WE were making all that extra money while he was away." She's really cute too boys, and actually seems all sweet & innocent ... if one didn't know any better.



Ah that was my sarcasm mode. But the whole WE thing is just AS disgusting if not MORE disgusting...   shame shame shame... the poor guy!


----------



## Roy Harding (6 Jun 2007)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> hehe,
> 
> I meant that as a sarcastic dig.
> 
> ...



Tess - I hear ya, and I do think you're right regarding the damage she's done to the CF. 

BUT, I don't think the CF has a reason to muzzle her.  Hopefully, like most things military, this will fade from the MSM, and most folks will forget they even read it.

Roy


----------



## Yrys (6 Jun 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> He spent a full 10 minutes emphasizing very loudly (thus I could hear it) how not a single one of them should NOT own their own home after returning from their tour.



Good of him. If you crosse his path one day, tell him I lift my hat to him. I'm sure he was more convincing
then when I tried to give friends counsels about better management of their money....


----------



## CdnArtyWife (6 Jun 2007)

So you mean I'm not supposed to be spending all of hubby's tour money at candle and spice parties?? > I better cancel the sitter for tomorrow night then.  

We will have nothing left about a month after hubby gets home...but we will have lots to show for it...his student loans are paid off, as is the one and only credit card we have, we will move into a brand new house within weeks of his arrival home and we will have all new livingroom furniture, diningroom furniture and appliances.

All that and hubby actually got me a personal trainer while he was gone (his idea). And I am now going back to school...

I still managed to buy a few candles and spices too. ;D

I agree with the main sentiment of the thread...there is no need for this wifey to whine as much as she does...someone should pitty her and buy her a cheeze factory to go with the whine.

There was rumor a while back that all the AD would be amalgamated and moved to Edmonton. I'm sure the housing situation wasn't the deciding factor for kaiboshing that idea...but I bet it was a large part of it. Moving approx 500 pers and family to Edmonton would put a strain on the already rediculous housing market.

CAW


----------



## Yrys (6 Jun 2007)

CdnArtyWife said:
			
		

> We will have nothing left about a month after hubby gets home...but we will have lots to show for it...
> his student loans are paid off, as is the one and only credit card we have



Just that would have been something. Think  of the money you are saving in interests,
and put it in the house  .


----------



## vangemeren (6 Jun 2007)

While this thread is aimed at recruits, in my opinion it is very applicable in this situation.
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/26093.0/all.html


----------



## scas (6 Jun 2007)

As with the housing issues.. There is no house(PMQ's) in edmonton. I'm getting posted out there next week, and I'm having to leave my pregant wife, and 2 kids in Borden till something opens up.


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## Blackadder1916 (6 Jun 2007)

*Housing crunch pinches incoming military families*
Some soldiers put up in downtown hotel
http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/story.html?id=52c22336-4aee-4ec6-9836-319310467421&k=34876


> Anna Mehler Paperny, The Edmonton Journal  Published: Monday, June 04, 2007
> 
> EDMONTON - When Janine Avery and her husband found out they were being posted to Edmonton Garrison from their home in Shilo, Man., she couldn't wait to move.
> 
> ...


----------



## formerarmybrat23 (6 Jun 2007)

> Edmonton does not qualify for a post living differential, a supplement of between $86 and $1,586 per month to offset high living costs.


Something has to be done about that. Edmonton is the city that needs it the most. I'm not sure who you would enquire to about that. If enough people do though they will probably listen. 
Can a solider refuse a posting to a certain area? can they just say no or do they need an excuse (like unable to find housing)?


----------



## armyvern (6 Jun 2007)

formerarmybrat23 said:
			
		

> Something has to be done about that. Edmonton is the city that needs it the most. I'm not sure who you would enquire to about that. If enough people do though they will probably listen.
> Can a solider refuse a posting to a certain area? can they just say no or do they need an excuse (like unable to find housing)?



As has already been pointed out on this thread, the PLD is already being reviewed (and has been being reviewed for quite some time now but must be approved by Treasury Board) to make it more timely and beneficial to those who require it.

And, incidentally, the fact that PLD was undergoing review due to exactly this kind of situation being experienced in Edmonton was pointed out on Army.ca well prior to this story hitting the media airwaves.

~ I point that out only because the MSM will no doubt claim credit as "breaking the story and _*causing*_ the review and thereby *forcing* the CF (*and * that "evil" Tory government in the process) to look after their serving members" as they seem to have enjoyed doing lately. They'll certainly not point out that this housing crunch in Edmonton for the troops was also occurring during Liberal reign or the fact that this story had absolutely ZERO to do with the review that is underway.


----------



## CdnArtyWife (6 Jun 2007)

> This year, people posted at St. John's, Halifax, Moncton, Quebec City, Ottawa-Gatineau, Hamilton, Borden, Vancouver, Victoria, two areas in Montreal and five areas in Toronto receive the funds.



I can state for a fact that Moncton doesn't get, nor does it need PLD.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (6 Jun 2007)

A couple more pieces about the Alberta housing situation.

Troops losing housing war
Can't afford to live in Edmonton
http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Edmonton/2007/06/01/4225533-sun.html  (more at link)


> Discouraged soldiers say Edmonton's white-hot real estate market and a dire shortage of family housing at the local base is forcing military families to live up to two hours away in more affordable towns.
> 
> And some troops are reportedly threatening to quit the military altogether, rather than be transferred to the Edmonton Garrison from bases in other parts of Canada where housing is more available and much cheaper.
> 
> .....Another soldier who's scheduled to arrive from Gagetown next month said he knows soldiers here who are forced to live as far away as Red Deer and Wetaskiwin because they can't afford to rent or buy in Edmonton and didn't want to wait for on-base housing.



...Booming housing market bucks national cooling trend
http://www.cbc.ca/cp/business/070604/b060498A.html  (more at link)


> .....Last week, Alberta's employment minister warned people who might be looking for a slice of the province's burgeoning economic pie to *stay home if they didn't have a place to live and a job lined up*. ......
> 
> Last month, the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp. released a forecast projecting the price of a single-detached house in Calgary and the surrounding area to reach $474,000 by the end of 2007 - a 24 per cent jump over 2006. *Only Edmonton is forecast for a bigger percentage hike, with prices expected to jump $90,000 to $340,000 by the end of this year, up 35.5 per cent.*


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## scas (6 Jun 2007)

Well, there's 4 other people on my coourse leaving next week for edmonton. We all got pulled aside today, and questioned. The RSM on their end and ours  wants info on where we are going to live when we get there. It turns out there are alot of people VR'ing just because of the lack of housing out there. Hopefully this review dosen't take any longer. At CFSEME, they want you to go to Ed, Pet or Val.. No other place when fresh off your 3's. This lack therof of housing is not restricted to Edmonton though.


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## MJP (6 Jun 2007)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> A couple more pieces about the Alberta housing situation.
> 
> Troops losing housing war
> Can't afford to live in Edmonton
> ...



Instead of someone knowing someone that knows someone, I'd like to see real proof that someone actually bought in Wetaskiwan or Red Deer.  It so very implausible, that its almost funny. And even if they did there were probably other mitigating factors that made them chose such a long long commute.  But until someone steps forward and says unequivocally that "yes I bought in Wetaskiwin/Red Deer because of Edmonton housing prices" I call BS.


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## GAP (6 Jun 2007)

MJP from your recent experience, is the market as tight and expensive as is being portrayed here, or is it just people not putting the effort into finding what they want, maybe with a bit of compromise?


----------



## observor 69 (6 Jun 2007)

Just curious, how would this do for a Cpl ?

http://tinyurl.com/2eur8y


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## M Feetham (6 Jun 2007)

Camochick, I applaud you by being able to put money away for a good purpose. That's is unfortunatley one of my problems is that once the bills are paid and the mortgage is paid, the play money is used for just that, take the family out to dinner, go to a movie, stuff like that, but only after the bills are paid. However, when I was posted to Halifax, living in Dartmouth I would bike 20km's a day to save money, no gas, no bridge fare to and from and no bus fare to and from. I would start as early in the year as possible and carry on until well into December, ( the latest in the year I have ever used my bike to get to work is around mid Decmeber. There is also the option of carpooling. I am not saying it is easy, I am not saying it is right for everyone, what I am saying is that everyone has to make decisions in their own lives, they also have to live with the reprecussions(is that spelled right?) of those decisions. My wife finally got a job here in St Jean after living here for a year. She had to travel to Bouchierville everymorning and back to St Jean every night. It's only about35 KM, she spent up to an hour and a half in traffic each way. Montreal traffic uses the same routes that she had to. She did it though, cause that is what she had to do. Every body is busy, we have to make time for the stuff we do. I would love to help renovate your home but like I said earlier, I am not a great handymand and would probably cause more damage that anything.
Cheers Feet


----------



## BernDawg (6 Jun 2007)

Red Deer is damn near as expensive as Edmonton any way so I agree with MJP. BS on that call.  Wouldn't the garrison be a 2.5-3 hr drive from there?


----------



## the 48th regulator (6 Jun 2007)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> Tess - I hear ya, and I do think you're right regarding the damage she's done to the CF.
> 
> BUT, I don't think the CF has a reason to muzzle her.  Hopefully, like most things military, this will fade from the MSM, and most folks will forget they even read it.
> 
> Roy



Roy,

Plus one on that, hopefully it does fade away, and not set an example.

dileas

tess


----------



## MJP (7 Jun 2007)

GAP said:
			
		

> MJP from your recent experience, is the market as tight and expensive as is being portrayed here, or is it just people not putting the effort into finding what they want, maybe with a bit of compromise?



A little from column A a bit from column B.  I sold and bought into the market last year so I can feel the pain of anyone trying to buy into the market.  Your really at the whim of the sellers.  Many of the good or decent houses that go on the market either a) have an offer within a day or so or b) Have multiple bids that see the price get driven up.  It is a fairly new phenomenon here in Edmonton something we aren't use to like the fine residents of Vancouver or TO.  The other side of the coin is there really is a limited amount of decently priced houses/condos that is feasible on a military salary.  If you do find one all too often you find your self outbid by people with larger deposits or better terms.  If you just look at a soldiers salary and only assume he is going to have a mortgage then yes he can buy a house but unfortunately we all know that there are other expenses to living.  One could save for a down payment but when the average price of a house climbs $400 dollars a day (real estate board figures not mine) and will for the foreseeable future it quickly outstrips any soldiers ability to make that 5 or 10%(which really isn't enough anyway).  

The other driving factor is location.  The base in Edmonton is just outside the northern edge of the city.  So a reliable car is a must as bus service is a bit of a joke.  It is there but unless you live close to the major routes your looking at quite some time sitting on the bus each day.  So you add the expense of a car with its maintenance, insurance and what not your bill climbs higher.  On top of that to keep the commute reasonable most people are going to live in the Northern half of the city....assuming that you say that the river is the divide for reasonable commutes there goes half the city for looking at available properties.  Not saying it can't be done but you just add more to your daily commute bill.

So yes as some people(all non residents of the fine city I might point out) that people should live in the outlying areas and well surprise people do and its just as(and in some places more) than living in Edmonton itself.

Now there are properties available but believe me you have to be glued to your real estate agent and be able to pounce on them when they appear.  Many many house here go in the first day they are listed.  The house I bought was on the market for all of 3 hours before I put in an offer and I only beat another offer by a few hours.  But I was on leave with no kids and was able to devote 8 hours a day to driving around with my agent looking at houses.  Some people don't have that option.



All that said from the original article I say ditch the dogs and start looking honey b*tching and moaning won't get you a house!


----------



## observor 69 (7 Jun 2007)

Baden  Guy said:
			
		

> Just curious, how would this do for a Cpl ?
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/2eur8y



OK call me naive but I still would like someone to comment on this property.
Not a bad location, not a bad price considering your options. Same thing here in TO would be around $195000.
I should know I live in one.


----------



## George Wallace (7 Jun 2007)

Sometimes a picture isn't worth a thousand words, Baden Guy.

That property doesn't have any price tag on it in the ad.  It may be located in a slum area/ghetto.  There are several areas in Ottawa that are near Somali ghettos and they are not good places to be - Fire and Police calls several times a day - gangs - crime - etc.


----------



## GAP (7 Jun 2007)

Thanks, that kinda clears up a lot of stuff. Essentially, she needs to do as you are suggesting and get busy.


----------



## niner domestic (7 Jun 2007)

MJP, It's not all that different here in Ottawa.  Our house sold (signed, sealed and delivered kind of sold) in 12 hours of it hitting the MLS realtor's site (it never made in onto the public site).  The average house here is taking about 48 hours to sell - any longer and it's either a deficient house or way over priced.   


I'm a little short on the sympathy as well.  Our daughter, who is in the Navy (Res), along with her hubs bought their first home when they were 18.  They both saved all their wages from their summer contracts in the Res and when hubs went Reg, they slapped it all down on a house.  They both started a business as well and now at 26, they are mortgage free, have excellent careers, a pretty substantial investment portfolio and one small debt of a new water heater (which of course broke down the day after hubs sailed).  

They paid cash for everything and if they didn't have the cash, it stayed in the store. They didn't buy a car until the little guy was walking.  They just kept putting every penny they made into the mortgage and investments.  They have one credit card that's kept only for emergencies.  The kids clip coupons, buy when there are sales, and buy in bulk when it makes sense, the kid buys her clothes from a consignment shop and then takes them back when she'd done wearing them and makes a little bit of money off of them.  Same for the grandkid's clothes.  

Now that the house is paid off, any extra deployment pay goes straight into RRSPs, the grandkid's education funds and investments. They are planning a trip Fiji - first class all the way.  Not bad for a LS and MS... I can't wait to see what they do in their 30s.


----------



## 3rd Herd (7 Jun 2007)

Me,
I keep the dogs!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## observor 69 (7 Jun 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Sometimes a picture isn't worth a thousand words, Baden Guy.
> 
> That property doesn't have any price tag on it in the ad.  It may be located in a slum area/ghetto.  There are several areas in Ottawa that are near Somali ghettos and they are not good places to be - Fire and Police calls several times a day - gangs - crime - etc.



Don't want to get into an argument here but.....
 The price is clearly displayed at the top of the page on the link.  The property may be as you suggest George in an undesirable neighbourhood, but a quick glance through Google maps and it doesn't look to bad.
Anyway my point was is this "for example " property, two bedroom condo for $179900 something that would be acceptable and within financial reach of most serviceman. 
Now if your only acceptable level is a three bedroom house then you better stay away from most of the major cities in Canada.
I have to smile every time I drive by the old closed CFB Downsview.  The authorities have decided to keep the PMQ open. So here we find the typical PMQ housing mix amidst the TO buidling boom.  A little military enclave on land worth many more times than the value of the housing.
The same example, land value not quite so high, can be found in the  Oakville PMQ.


----------



## George Wallace (7 Jun 2007)

Baden  Guy said:
			
		

> Don't want to get into an argument here but.....
> The price is clearly displayed at the top of the page on the link.  The property may be as you suggest George in an undesirable neighbourhood, but a quick glance through Google maps and it doesn't look to bad.....




Opps!  Must have not opened up the window large enough or ignored the price as part of another ad.  Sorry.   :-[


----------



## Blackadder1916 (7 Jun 2007)

Baden  Guy said:
			
		

> The property may be as you suggest George in an undesirable neighbourhood, but a quick glance through Google maps and it doesn't look to bad.



Some PMQ patches that I have seen (and lived in) have sometimes been described as undesirable neighbourhoods in which to live _(said with a sarcastic tone_).  But if you want to make a comparison of Edmonton neighbourhoods, the following Edmonton Journal piece may be of some use.  However, the study referred to in the article has flaws (particularly if local gov't used it as the priority list to spend revitalization money) since one of the trendiest 'hoods in Edmonton, Strathcona is rated lower than Rundle Heights.

From No. 1 to No. 213 in local quality of life
Thirty-one areas on city's list for revitalization work -- and dollars
http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/story.html?id=ddcc7a67-505b-4ba5-baa1-5bb9b8adc7f0&k=19870  (much more at link)


> EDMONTON - How does your neighbourhood rate as a place to live? The City of Edmonton has an answer.
> 
> In a wide-ranging study that looks at everything from the number of single parents to the condition of city streets, the city has amassed a huge pile of data, and a corresponding quality-of-life ranking, on 213 Edmonton neighbourhoods.
> 
> ...


----------



## tweetya (10 Jun 2007)

My husband just got posted to 408 Squadron in Edmonton. We were told by CFHA it would be impossible for us to get a MQ before Dec 2007 and that I would have to wait in our previous posting while he went to Edmonton. My comment was "Not". So we decided to buy a home! Well let me tell you. Since March 2007 the prices of houses are totally gone crazy. So you can not buy a decent home no matter how many bedrooms you want for under $265000.00. We lucked in and got a mobile home, but for $173000.00!

Also I looked at renting, if you have any type of pet it is hard to find a place that will rent to you. It is ridiculous! I feel for her because we have a dog also. And to us he is part of our family.

So if your going to purchase a home your down payment should be at least $30000.00! And no matter what type of duty you've been doing you ain't going to bring that home.

I agree that the government should start supporting their members and families. These MQ's have been paid for time and time again. If they'd stop tearing them down before they get the new ones supposedly that are to be built up. Then there would be something. Also if Ottawa and Toronto can get over $1000 PLD, then I think there should be PLD for all military bases no matter what province they are in.


----------



## George Wallace (10 Jun 2007)

I'm not sure where you got the "over $1000" figures for Toronto AND Ottawa, but I am sure that these figures are not correct.  Something a RMS clerk would be able to clear up for us.


----------



## medicineman (10 Jun 2007)

A guy I'm on course with is posted in Toronto and is pulling in around $1000 + in PLD  - they have 3 levels depending on where you are.

MM


----------



## Roy Harding (10 Jun 2007)

tweetya said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> So if your going to purchase a home your down payment should be at least $30000.00! And no matter what type of duty you've been doing you ain't going to bring that home.
> 
> ...



I agree that house prices are outrageous in Edmonton (I just moved from there).  However, I don't see that $30K is unreasonable for a down payment.  I purchased my first house (for $95K) in 1989 - the time of the required 25% down payment to qualify for a CMHC Guaranteed Mortgage.  My down payment was $23,750 - at a time LONG before the wonderful pay raises of the '90s - and the wonderful changes to overseas allowances (tax free status and all that) - and my wife was, at the time, a stay at home Mom - my family existed on a MCpl's salary, and we managed it.

To summarize - I agree the cost of housing is high in Edmonton, I agree that there needs to be some sort of PLD payable at that location - I don't agree that saving $30K for a down payment is that much of a big deal, given the fiscal realities of service today.


Roy


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## the 48th regulator (10 Jun 2007)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> I agree that house prices are outrageous in Edmonton (I just moved from there).  However, I don't see that $30K is unreasonable for a down payment.  I purchased my first house (for $95K) in 1989 - the time of the required 25% down payment to qualify for a CMHC Guaranteed Mortgage.  My down payment was $23,750 - at a time LONG before the wonderful pay raises of the '90s - and the wonderful changes to overseas allowances (tax free status and all that) - and my wife was, at the time, a stay at home Mom - my family existed on a MCpl's salary, and we managed it.
> 
> To summarize - I agree the cost of housing is high in Edmonton, I agree that there needs to be some sort of PLD payable at that location - I don't agree that saving $30K for a down payment is that much of a big deal, given the fiscal realities of service today.
> 
> ...




Bang on.

Furthermore, there is no reason why someone could not check out many of the alternatives that banks offer, i.e zero down mortgage which carries a higher interest rate however is unnoticable.

dileas

tess


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## aesop081 (10 Jun 2007)

tweetya said:
			
		

> Also I looked at renting, if you have any type of pet it is hard to find a place that will rent to you. It is ridiculous! I feel for her because we have a dog also. And to us he is part of our family.



So for you the choice would be:

1- Have a dog ; or

2- Have a place to live 

Is the choice not obvious to you ?


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## SupersonicMax (10 Jun 2007)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> So for you the choice would be:
> 
> 1- Have a dog ; or
> 
> ...



I have a dog, and it wouldn't be that obvious to me.  It's like saying :

1- Have a kid; or

2- Have a place to live.

For me, it's not an option.


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## armyvern (10 Jun 2007)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I have a dog, and it wouldn't be that obvious to me.  It's like saying :
> 
> 1- Have a kid; or
> 
> ...



That's all well and good. Make your choice then as you see fit. Just don't run to the media and blame the CF's inability to find you affordable housing when in actuality you are choosing the pet over affordable housing. That's what this girl did; see the difference yet?


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## Roy Harding (10 Jun 2007)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I have a dog, and it wouldn't be that obvious to me.  It's like saying :
> 
> 1- Have a kid; or
> 
> ...



I have a dog, (and cats) too - and I love her (and them) to pieces.  I WAITED, however, until I:

a.  owned my home (no landlord issues);

b.  had the space required for the large breed I wanted;

c.  had the time required to teach her basic obedience.

When we lived in rental accommodations, we DID NOT HAVE PETS (I lie - we had a parakeet for a while - and various gerbils and white mice) CATS OR DOGS - despite the pleading of the kids, because we knew that no matter what our current landlord might have allowed, we would be moving (again) shortly, and there was no guarantee of finding a landlord with the same understanding in our new place.

Once we purchased our own home, we got house cats - items b. and c. above did not apply to them.

And I agree with Vern - when my wife and I told the kids they couldn't have a dog or cat, we didn't blame the CF, nor think we had anything to talk to the media about.


Edit:  I forgot the rodents.


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## scoutfinch (10 Jun 2007)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> I agree that house prices are outrageous in Edmonton (I just moved from there).  However, I don't see that $30K is unreasonable for a down payment.  I purchased my first house (for $95K) in 1989 - the time of the required 25% down payment to qualify for a CMHC Guaranteed Mortgage.  My down payment was $23,750 - at a time LONG before the wonderful pay raises of the '90s - and the wonderful changes to overseas allowances (tax free status and all that) - and my wife was, at the time, a stay at home Mom - my family existed on a MCpl's salary, and we managed it.
> 
> To summarize - I agree the cost of housing is high in Edmonton, I agree that there needs to be some sort of PLD payable at that location - I don't agree that saving $30K for a down payment is that much of a big deal, given the fiscal realities of service today.
> 
> ...



But Roy, you aren't being fair!! How can people come up with $30,000 for a down payment?  They would have to SAVE their money over a period of time!!! They wouldn't be able to have their house NOW!!! And god forbid, people do without what they WANT for any length of time.  Aren't they ENTITLED to get WHATEVER they want WHENEVER they want??? Isn't somebody out there supposed to GIVE it to them?  And surely to god if they can't come up with it on their own, SOMEHOW this must be the CFs responsibility, no?

Sorry but this notion of being owed something is really starting to p*ss me off.


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## Michael OLeary (10 Jun 2007)

Just out of curiosity, for a Corporal deployed to Afghanistan, approximately what would be the total benefits (including income taxes not being paid) over his/her normal monthly take home pay that would the family could be receiving?


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## camochick (10 Jun 2007)

When hubby was deployed, with his pay and everything else they give you, tax free we made about 5,000 a month. This was his third tour, and I know that makes somewhat of a difference, but i don't know how much of a difference.


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## aesop081 (10 Jun 2007)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I have a dog, and it wouldn't be that obvious to me.
> 
> 
> For me, it's not an option.



Fine...go live on the street with you dog but it wont be the CFs fault you are there.

As far as your analogy goes in regards to kids.......well if you cant afford to have a dog/ kid.....don't freakin have them.


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## SupersonicMax (10 Jun 2007)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Fine...go live on the street with you dog but it wont be the CFs fault you are there.
> 
> As far as your analogy goes in regards to kids.......well if you cant afford to have a dog/ kid.....don't freakin have them.



I won't plan my life in the eventuality of being posted to Edmonton.  Right now, I can afford a dog and I have one.  We didn't get the dog just because we wanted one, but we taught about it, made it part of the budget, took a year to finally decide that it was time to get one.  It's part of the family.  Same as a kid in my opinion.  I tend to agree that the CF could do a little more for the folks (in general) in Edmonton.  If you are "evicted" from your apartment in Winnipeg, you won't have a great deal of trouble finding a place that accepts animals for a reasonable price. 

Max


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## Roy Harding (10 Jun 2007)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I won't plan my life in the eventuality of being posted to Edmonton.  Right now, I can afford a dog and I have one.  We didn't get the dog just because we wanted one, but we taught about it, made it part of the budget, took a year to finally decide that it was time to get one.  It's part of the family.  Same as a kid in my opinion.  I tend to agree that the CF could do a little more for the folks (in general) in Edmonton.  If you are "evicted" from your apartment in Winnipeg, you won't have a great deal of trouble finding a place that accepts animals for a reasonable price.
> 
> Max



Wonderful planning on your part, Max - and I understand the attractions of a dog - you've got her/him now, so you'll have to live with the consequences (I appreciate how attached you get to them) IF you're posted to Edmonton or some other place where the available accommodations are tight.

The point I (and others) have been trying to get across is that if you DO run into circumstances where accommodations aren't available which include your dog, it WON'T be the fault of the CF, and it WON'T be something worth crying to the national media about, as if it WERE the CF's responsibility.  Somehow, I don't think it'll be an issue with you - you seem prepared to accept responsibility for your own decisions.

Roy


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## George Wallace (10 Jun 2007)

This discussion is now bordering on the ridiculous.  A Pet is not a Child, and never will be.  Your conscious decision to own a pet is yours, but you must be prepared to give up that pet should the situation dictate.  A child is not a pet, and can in no way be discussed in any way as being similar or equal.  If you have to, you can give up your pet to a friend or family, or have it put down.  A child you can not.  When it comes to 'Rental' properties, there is no way that one can compare a child to a pet.  This whole line of argument is totally out to lunch.  If you insist on keeping it up, this will become nothing else but a topic that is relegated to Radio Chatter.


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## SupersonicMax (10 Jun 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> This discussion is now bordering on the ridiculous.  A Pet is not a Child, and never will be.  Your conscious decision to own a pet is yours, but you must be prepared to give up that pet should the situation dictate.  A child is not a pet, and can in no way be discussed in any way as being similar or equal.  If you have to, you can give up your pet to a friend or family, or have it put down.  A child you can not.  When it comes to 'Rental' properties, there is no way that one can compare a child to a pet.  This whole line of argument is totally out to lunch.  If you insist on keeping it up, this will become nothing else but a topic that is relegated to Radio Chatter.



George, this is not as ridiculous as you think.  A few years ago in Montreal, landlords refused families with kids in their appartments.  On the North Shore of Montreal, last year, a contractor refused to sell one of his property to a family because they had kids below the age of 18 years old (kids disturb neighbours and it was bad for the sales in his development neighbourhood)  They both got away with it.

Again, I don't think this case is a case for the media, but the issue of accomodation in Edmonton should certainly be addressed by the chain of command.

Max


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## camochick (10 Jun 2007)

My building doesn't allow anyone under the age of 25 and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. We still have a few druggies and weirdos in here but it's not as bad as having to listen to kids screaming at all hours of the day. 

It would suck to have to give up your pet because you can't find a place that will rent to you, but when you get a pet, you should take into consideration your living arrangements. If she wants to keep the dogs bad enough she will either pay the price, and do the leg work to find a place or she can pitch a tent and live in it. It's her choice.


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## larry Strong (10 Jun 2007)

When I was in Croatia with Roto 1, a cetrtain signals  M/Cpl got leave to go home and bury his dog that had been poisoned. They were a childless couple and he claimed the dog was as important as any child.


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## battleaxe (17 Jun 2007)

And the stories about Edmonton continue...http://thechronicleherald.ca/Canada/842018.html.

What strikes me about such stories- and annoys me- is that the media insists on adding weird little details that tend to trivialize the main issue- that being the high cost of living in Edmonton.  By adding in such distractions as pets and and daughters who want privacy, people are less likely to focus on the core problem and dismiss the complaints as whining. People are more likely to say- Oh suck it up, the dogs can go or the kids can share a room.

And they certainly can. I think the issue here is that should they have to. 

Knowing, and having experienced, the media's ability to distort and distract, I have to give the people involved in the media attention on this issue the benefit of the doubt and assume that they didn't mean for their dogs or their kids' bedroom space to be the main focus of the article.  I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they simply want fairness and for someone in Ottawa to make the living situation in Edmonton a priority problem to be solved. 

Bren


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## Bruce Monkhouse (17 Jun 2007)

I read that article and I think she is whining.........my two daughters, 11 and 14, have been sharing a room for almost two years now. I don't see my sad, : sad, story being news......

_Quote,
"My daughter (Brandee) needs her own privacy."
Her children, aged five and eight, share a bedroom._

Yup. :crybaby:


When will all workers in Southern Ontario get more money?? :boring:


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## birdgunnnersrule (17 Jun 2007)

I agree that this sounds a bit ridiculous. Shared a room with my brother until I joined the military at 17 so the idea of privacy is just another part of the song and dance.  With the new mortgages out there, depending on a couple's total debt ratio, a mortgage is not unreasonable. Just purchased our first home in Ottawa despite the fact my wife has a large student and we have two young children.  We just tightened up the purse strings for the last couple of years and it worked out rather well. I do agree that the housing situation out west needs to be addressed, but throwing PLD money around may not be the best long term solution.  There must investment into the infrastructure.


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## PMedMoe (17 Jun 2007)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I read that article and I think she is whining.........my two daughters, 11 and 14, have been sharing a room for almost two years now. I don't see my sad, : sad, story being news......
> 
> _Quote,
> "My daughter (Brandee) needs her own privacy."
> ...



I agree.  When I was born we were eight living in a two-bedroom tin house (anyone remember them?)  We moved into a three-bedroom in St. Margaret's and then finally into a four-bedroom in Chatham.  I got my own room when I was *16*, and that was only because the older kids had moved out by then.  Yes, we all would have liked to have our own rooms but it just wasn't possible.  One of the girls where I used to work had the similar tale of "woe", her two daughters then three and six were sharing a room.  Give me a break!  
When are they going to stop charging CF members in Ontario Health Tax?  :brickwall:


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## CdnArtyWife (17 Jun 2007)

Well perhaps I should alert the media that Anglican Priests and other Protestant Ministers (whose parishes maintain a Rectory or Manse) are grossly being done wrong by too.

I not only shared a room with my sister who is 11 years my senior, but once I was out of a crib I had the pleasure of sharing a double bed with her until she moved out for college. Perhaps it was rediculous that the Anglican Rectory (my dad is a priest) had only 4 bedrooms!! Whatever to do when a priest actually has 4 kids?! Nevermind that my eldest sister (14 years my senior) could have shared with my sister, but she needed her privacy...as did my brother (10 years my senior). Perhaps the most ghastly part of the story is that my "cruel" parents thought fit to turn my oldest sister's room into a tv room instead of letting the other three kids have our own room...let alone our own beds. Perhaps they were jaded parents from having had to "make do" by living in a rundown trailer in Kentucky while Dad was in seminary...I mean, I wasn't around then, but my three siblings had to share one chest of drawers...and took turns getting their own room while the other two slept on cots that made into bunk beds. Oh the atrocities!

I guess in a nutshell, I roll my eyes and say "Suck it up Princess, you ain't got it that bad!"  :


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## battleaxe (17 Jun 2007)

If Ms. Levesque called the media, or agreed to speak with the media, for no other reason than to whine about the fact that her daughters have to share a room, then she deserves your scorn- and I will heap it upon her right along with you. I shared a room for years and my sons currently share one, so I- like many of you- do not consider it necessary for a child to have his/her own room.

I posted earlier because I think the way the articles (this one and the initial article that is the basis for this thread) are written are distorting the issue.  The quotes in the article about the bedroom sharing may have come from just a very small portion of Ms. Levesque's entire interview with the CP reporter. The fact that he had to use the same quote twice tells me that he didn't have a lot of quotes to work with on that subject- and that got me to thinking. 

How many of you have done a lengthy interview with a journalist (radio, paper, TV - doesn't matter)- and felt that it went quite well and that you got your point of view across- only to feel like a whining, bleeding idiot when the interview was finally translated into print, broadcasted, or shown on TV?

I've been there- and I've read other posts on this site that would indicate others have felt likewise misrepresented.

Could it be that Ms. Levesque, and the couple with the dogs for that matter, spoke up in hopes of helping and raising awareness about the cost of living and housing issues in Edmonton- with only the best of intentions- only to find that they had unwittingly contributed to an article that discredited and belittled the problem instead?

It's another way to look at it-that's all I wanted to point out.

Unless she visits here and speaks up in her own defence, we're not likely to know what happened in that interview.  The fact that she has supported her husband through two tours in Afghanistan, works to supplement their income, and has told her daughters to be patient and "At least we’ve got a room over our heads"- makes me want to give her the benefit of the doubt.

I'd rather give her the benefit of the doubt than the CP reporter who wrote the article- especially because I feel he was writing it to be deliberately divisive and inflammatory. My opinion only, of course.


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## armyvern (17 Jun 2007)

Although I'd agree with your reasoning as to the media angle here battleaxe, I'm guess I'm a little tired of constantly hearing about "Edmonton" and how bad they have it there, not by you specifically.

I guess I'm put off by all the hoopla because:

A) The 300K figure quoted in the article, amongst others, is comparable with housing costs for CF members in Ontario/BC and we don't see them in the news. Yes granted, some locations in Ontario/BC receive an offest PLD; but

B) Those CF members in Ontario/BC are also paying out 8% PST(Ont) & 7% PST(BC), in addition to GST, of their take-home on every purchase they make, unlike those in Alberta ( see here  ); and

C) CF members in Ontario pay a higher provincial income tax rate on their earnings than do those in Alberta (BC pays slightly less than Alberta); and

D) Those CF members in Ontario are also docked OHIP (with no rebate at the end of the year); and

E) Those CF members in Ontario/BC are not receiving 'oil divided' cheques for each member of their household from the provincial government. 

I guess that's why this whole "woe is me" attitude pertaining strictly to Alberta and it's proliferance in the media lately puzzles me. 

What makes this last article an even worse example of a "_whiney wife_" is that the article mentions that the spouse, in this case, is a veteran of two tours in Afghanistan where he was, most certainly, earning allowances and benefits well above that which other non-deployed CF members receive (quite possibly entirely tax-free for his deployment period at that). What the heck did they spend all that extra cash on?? Apparently not an upgrade to their accommodations. Quite simply, I have no sympathy in this case.


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## GAP (17 Jun 2007)

A well articulated POV & response....


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## Blakey (17 Jun 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> What makes this last article an even worse example of a "_whiney wife_" is that the article mentions that the spouse, in this case, is a veteran of two tours in Afghanistan where he was, most certainly, earning allowances and benefits well above that which other non-deployed CF members receive (quite possibly entirely tax-free for his deployment period at that). *What the heck did they spend all that extra cash on?? *Apparently not an upgrade to their accommodations. Quite simply, I have no sympathy in this case.


(My emphasis added to above)
+1
I for one, after tour (Aug 08), will be fixing up my current hovel, paying off bills and using the rest (along with what is gained from the sell of the current homestead) as a downpayment on a new(er) house.


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## armyvern (17 Jun 2007)

Cataract Kid said:
			
		

> (My emphasis added to above)
> +1
> I for one, after tour (Aug 08), will be fixing up my current hovel, paying off bills and using the rest (along with what is gained from the sell of the current homestead) as a downpayment on a new(er) house.



Then you have good priorities set in your life.


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## larry Strong (17 Jun 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Although I'd agree with your reasoning as to the media angle here battleaxe, I'm guess I'm a little tired of constantly hearing about "Edmonton" and how bad they have it there, not by you specifically.
> 
> I guess I'm put off by all the hoopla because:
> 
> ...




I might be nit picking here, but only 1 cheque was ever issued, it's not like Alaska where they get one every year....I wish... ;D


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## armyvern (17 Jun 2007)

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> I might be nit picking here, but only 1 cheque was ever issued, it's not like Alaska where they get one every year....I wish... ;D



That was this year correct? I'll wait and see what happens next year ... but something tells me there'll be another cheque in the mail.


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## Roy Harding (17 Jun 2007)

A couple of points, if I may.

I think Army Vern has, in general, pinned the subject down.  There IS no GREAT hardship involved that cannot be solved with prudent personal financial planning.

CdnArtyWife also makes a very good point regarding how the media may report what you say.  Having been a "victim" of this phenomenon myself, I can understand how one's words may be twisted - by guile, ignorance, or inattention - to emphasise points you had no interest in emphasizing.

Frankly, I don't see ANYONE (including Privates) in today's CF as being underpaid.  I am a "survivor" of the "food bank" days (which were also BS), and I agree that life can be tough for a Private, even, MAYBE (although I'd argue about it), for a Corporal.  HOWEVER - financially, the Forces are in very good shape in comparison to the civilians - if one's marker for poverty is whether one's children must share a room or not, then one does not understand what poverty is.


Roy

Edited:  To clarify the last sentence - the original made no sense.


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## mummiebear5 (17 Jun 2007)

Actually that was January of 2006 and Klein is now gone.  No more cheques are being issued.


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## armyvern (17 Jun 2007)

mummiebear5 said:
			
		

> Actually that was January of 2006 and Klein is now gone.  No more cheques are being issued.



Fair enough. I never had the luxury of receiving it one. If it's not re-issued this year though (and the year isn't over yet), I still believe that Albertans more than make up for its loss in the savings they see PST-wise over every Canadian citizen habitating in another province.


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## CdnArtyWife (17 Jun 2007)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> CdnArtyWife *battleaxe* also makes a very good point regarding how the media may report what you say.  Having been a "victim" of this phenomenon myself, I can understand how one's words may be twisted - by guile, ignorance, or inattention - to emphasise points you had no interest in emphasizing.



I'd love to take the credit for that, but in reality, I was just B****ing and pointing out that there are other people in other careers that face the same "hardships"

Cheers, 

CAW


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## Roy Harding (17 Jun 2007)

CdnArtyWife said:
			
		

> I'd love to take the credit for that, but in reality, I was just B****ing and pointing out that there are other people in other careers that face the same "hardships"
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> CAW



My bad - and good on ya' for acknowledging the error.  I'm sure you've said OTHER things that I'm in agreement with!!


Roy


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