# Naval Combat Systems Engineer ( NCSE )



## tt (11 Aug 2008)

Who knows the security clearance level of Naval Combat Systems Engineering(Officer)? Thanks!


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## the 48th regulator (11 Aug 2008)

Would this help?

http://www.cfsuo.forces.gc.ca/CSSS/Pdev/docs/09-61.doc

dileas

tess


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## thewildandelusivebacon (2 Jan 2011)

Hi guys this is my first Post!  


I was wondering about the Naval Combat Systems Officer (NCSO) I know the take care of the ships large guns and torpedos (spelling?) but in the event of an enemy ship/sub/plane etc, would the NCSO actually fire the gun at the ship? If the NCSO isn't the one fireing these, who is?

Thanks :snowman:


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## gcclarke (2 Jan 2011)

Nope. Naval Combat Systems Engineering Officers are responsible for making sure the stuff works. The ones who fire the weapons are either Maritime Surface / Subsurface Officers (aka MARS Officers), and Naval Electronic Sensor Operators (For the guns and missiles), or Sonar Ops, for the Torps, and on occasion Naval Weapons Techs for the Close In Weapons System (CIWS).

When at action stations, the CSEO is in charge of the Emergency Response Team, whose primary role is emergency repairs to equipment, ensuring that the operators have the equipment available that they need to continue fighting the good fight.


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## Occam (2 Jan 2011)

gcclarke said:
			
		

> Nope. Naval Combat Systems Engineering Officers are responsible for making sure the technicians make sure the stuff works.



Fixed that for ya.   

Wouldn't want to give the impression we trust you guys with tools or anything sharper than a pencil or sliderule.   ;D


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## gcclarke (2 Jan 2011)

Occam said:
			
		

> Fixed that for ya.
> 
> Wouldn't want to give the impression we trust you guys with tools or anything sharper than a pencil or sliderule.   ;D



To an extent, true. However, an Engineering Officer's tools are the members of his or her department. But yeah, definitely not trusted with a multimeter.


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## alejo (5 Jan 2011)

Hey come on guys. Not all of us potential NCSEO have no idea how to handle tools!
  ???


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## Oldgateboatdriver (5 Jan 2011)

Alejo:

Glad to see you caught on the lingo fast. Yes, it is NCSE O, sometimes referred to only as CSE O. An NCSO is a Naval Control of Shipping Officer, a specialty found only in the naval reserve (if any are left). They concerned themselves with the organization, coordination and control of merchant ship convoys.


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## Occam (5 Jan 2011)

alejo said:
			
		

> Hey come on guys. Not all of us potential NCSEO have no idea how to handle tools!
> ???



If I saw a CSE O with a screwdriver, it had better be for opening a can of beer!   ;D


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## gcclarke (5 Jan 2011)

alejo said:
			
		

> Hey come on guys. Not all of us potential NCSEO have no idea how to handle tools!
> ???



Well, it's not only a matter of whether or not you know how to handle tools in general. It's also whether or not you know how to use them on the kit in question. And more to the point, it's also not your job. Even former techs who joined the dark side generally aren't "allowed" to work hands on.


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## JMesh (5 Jan 2011)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> An NCSO is a Naval Control of Shipping Officer, a specialty found only in the naval reserve (if any are left). They concerned themselves with the organization, coordination and control of merchant ship convoys.



Quick side note: There are no specific NCSOs left. This aspect (now Naval Cooperation and Guidance for Shipping - NCAGS) has become a part of the job of NAVRES Int Os.

[/tangent]


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## Navalsnpr (7 Jan 2011)

alejo said:
			
		

> Hey come on guys. Not all of us potential NCSEO have no idea how to handle tools!
> ???



This is true... but handle them at home.   ;D  

The NE/NWT's have training on the kit that you do not. Imagine this one... An Investigation is convened to examine why a high price piece was broken. They find out that an un-qualified personnel was maintaining the kit. I'm sure you can figure out the rest.


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## Edward Campbell (7 Jan 2011)

gcclarke said:
			
		

> Well, it's not only a matter of whether or not you know how to handle tools in general. It's also whether or not you know how to use them on the kit in question. And more to the point, it's also not your job. Even former techs who joined the dark side generally aren't "allowed" to work hands on.




This is a key point for all serving and aspiring CF members: each person has a job, (s)he is assigned to that job because (s)he has (someone hopes (s)he has) a suitable mix of skills and knowledge to do that job and, simultaneously, to learn from that job so as to prepare himself/herself for promotion - for harder, more demanding jobs.

For officers, especially, this may be a bit frustrating - you may _wish_ that you could be doing some of the "hands on" and "fun" stuff than the NCMs are doing, but that's their job, not yours. I watched this _envy_ thing play out, over and over again, during a 35+ year career involving a few different cap badges - officers and senior NCMs who adjusted, quickly and easily, to the fact that they have their jobs and junior people have other jobs, got along fine; those who wanted to do someone else's job usually failed - often miserably - at both.

And don't get me started on officers, mid-ranked and senior, who come to Ottawa and want to do civil servants' jobs while ignoring their own, military, duties.


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## Mike5 (28 Jan 2011)

This is an interesting discussion of the role of a Naval Combat Systems Engineering Officer.  Can anyone describe a typical day in the life of an NCSEO ?  It sounds like the closest analogous civilian role would be the manager of a computer software / hardware support team?

I understand this is not a PRes role?

Thanks in advance for any discussion,

Mike


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## Occam (28 Jan 2011)

Mike5 said:
			
		

> This is an interesting discussion of the role of a Naval Combat Systems Engineering Officer.  Can anyone describe a typical day in the life of an NCSEO ?  It sounds like the closest analogous civilian role would be the manager of a computer software / hardware support team?
> 
> I understand this is not a PRes role?
> 
> ...



Not just computer software/hardware, but manager to the technical support teams for Comm/Nav/Radar/Sonar/Weapons systems as well.


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## drunknsubmrnr (28 Jan 2011)

Alejo, 

I wouldn't want you to get the wrong idea. I once let a CSEO solder a switch, under close supervision. I was responsible to my CSE chief and the XO for the work being done right though, and it was a somewhat of a nerve-wracking experience. It's not something you would routinely expect.


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## gcclarke (30 Jan 2011)

Mike5 said:
			
		

> This is an interesting discussion of the role of a Naval Combat Systems Engineering Officer.  Can anyone describe a typical day in the life of an NCSEO ?  It sounds like the closest analogous civilian role would be the manager of a computer software / hardware support team?
> 
> I understand this is not a PRes role?
> 
> ...



I wouldn't argue that you're far off the mark, at least not while posted to a ship, or a unit directly supporting ships (such as the flee maintenance facilities or the coast's J37s [engineering operations] organizations). In those roles, you're very much so involved in making sure that the work that needs to get done gets done. But certainly not in doing it yourself. Whether you're prioritizing work, or reporting back to shore authorities to make sure that your boss's boss's boss knows what is wrong with your stuff, it's all about doing your best to deliver capability to the fleet, be it your ship, or all of them that is your responsibility. 

In other positions, it's often about doing your best to develop solutions for the future capability of the CF's navy. This may be about training personnel who will in the future fix things, or it may be about working on the project management team that helps guide the course of any future procurement for the fleet of the future. 

As for my typical day, I spend a large portion of it dealing with paperwork, whether it be the messages we have to send off telling shore establishments that some of our stuff is broken, dealing with a guy who has failed on his EXPRES test, or making sure that a member gets a new Terms of Service offer for continued employment beyond their initial contract. And everything else in between. But again, a lot of that is due to where I am posted, and either won't happen or will be less likely to happen while posted ashore.


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## NavyShooter (30 Jan 2011)

I'm a supervisor NE Tech....if I'm doing my job right, my guys do all the work, and I just back-stop them if they run out of ideas on a problem.  I shouldn't have too many tools in my hands either.

If a CSEO has tools in his hand, it'd best be to open up his desk drawer that he lost the key for, 'cause if it's for any of my kit, he's on his own, after being asked politely if he has anything else he should be doing...


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## ItsJustOscar (3 Jul 2011)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> For officers, especially, this may be a bit frustrating - you may _wish_ that you could be doing some of the "hands on" and "fun" stuff than the NCMs are doing, but that's their job, not yours.



Are all Officers positions aboard tedious and administrative (for the lack of better words), or are there some that include hands on work?

Or, do NCMs have all the fun?


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## Navalsnpr (3 Jul 2011)

ItsJustOscar said:
			
		

> Are all Officers positions aboard tedious and administrative (for the lack of better words), or are there some that include hands on work?
> 
> Or, do NCMs have all the fun?



If you want to be hands on, then the NCM side is better. CSEO's do administrative work. CSE NCM's do the hands on.


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## gcclarke (19 Jul 2011)

ItsJustOscar said:
			
		

> Are all Officers positions aboard tedious and administrative (for the lack of better words), or are there some that include hands on work?
> 
> Or, do NCMs have all the fun?



For engineers, yes. Well, that is to say, a large portion of their time is spent in administrative tasks, and they aren't allowed to do hands on work. The MARS guys have a much more "hands on" job than engineers (and LogOs). Which isn't to say that they don't have their fair share or boring and tedious administrative work as well!


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## ItsJustOscar (20 Jul 2011)

gcclarke said:
			
		

> But again, a lot of that is due to where I am posted, and either won't happen or will be less likely to happen while posted ashore.



What exactly would you be doing while posted ashore?


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## gcclarke (22 Jul 2011)

Training. Administration related to the support of the current fleet. Administration related to development of future capability. Etc.


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## JSingh04 (19 Jul 2012)

Hello there,

I'm applying to be a NCSE officer and would like to hear from you If you're already in this profesion. What are some pros and cons. All the info I have is just from the website and I'd like to get a better view on this. How does it compare to other engineering professions offered by the Canadian forces? Thanks is advance.


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## estoguy (19 Jul 2012)

One thing I did learn about it when researching trades is that *you do need a science or engineering degree*.  Unless they have updated the printed information on forces.ca, at the time it didn't state it directly.  That requirement was in the video however.  I called and they did confirm that.


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## gcclarke (19 Jul 2012)

Pro: You could get posted to lovely Victoria, BC (West coast is the best coast).

Con: You could get posted to Halifax, Nova Scotia (East coast is the least coast).

Pro: No standing watches at sea (What's the best thing about being a day-worker? Everything.)

Con: Limited sea time available. Most folks would be lucky to get 4 years on ship. 

Pro: Limited sea time available. You're not going to be stuck on ship for 15+ years of your career.

Con: It's certainly not what I'd term a "hard-engineering" job. You're not designing stuff. You're not using any of those fancy formulas you learn about in university. After the first bit of training you get in the classroom, you're rarely would use a calculator for anything more complicated than simple multiplication. 

Pro: Fairly rigorous training, but unlike some trades (*coughMARScough*), no one's really going out of their way to try and fail you. 

Pro: Navy uniforms look better than the other elements.

I dunno, got any more specific questions?


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## JSingh04 (20 Jul 2012)

Thanks for the info. What do NCSE officers do on a normal day. Whar are they responsible for. You said most NCSEs will only spend 4 years on a ship. What do they do after 4 years. Also, I agree about the uniforms.


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## Pusser (20 Jul 2012)

JSingh04 said:
			
		

> Thanks for the info. What do NCSE officers do on a normal day. Whar are they responsible for. You said most NCSEs will only spend 4 years on a ship. What do they do after 4 years. Also, I agree about the uniforms.



CSE = Constantly Sleeping Engineer

Traditionally, they made sure the Wardroom movie projector worked (aircrew operated it), but now with DVDs, satellite TV and LCD/plasma screens, their employability is waning ;D

The weather in Victoria is overrated and the people are cold.  Halifax and the Maritimes in general are God's country.


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## gcclarke (25 Jul 2012)

JSingh04 said:
			
		

> Thanks for the info. What do NCSE officers do on a normal day. Whar are they responsible for. You said most NCSEs will only spend 4 years on a ship. What do they do after 4 years. Also, I agree about the uniforms.



On ship, ensure that the day to day operations of their department are in keeping with the commanding officer's intent. Deconflicting maintenance periods with other ship operations, notifying folks ashore if stuff's broken, ensuring that training is progressing, liaising with the logistics officer if some parts are needed right-freaking-now, etc etc. They're responsible to the commanding officer to maintain a high level of technical readiness in the ship's combat suite. 

Ashore, that varies greatly depending on the job. You could be working for the formation commander to determine repair priorities, you could be a training officer at one of the schools, you could be the ammunition technical officer for the coast, you could be working for the base information services organization, you could be at a recruiting centre, you would be the guy in charge of the overall life-cycle management (procurement, 3rd line maintenance, ensuring we have adequate spare parts, disposal, etc) for all instances of a certain piece of equipment, etc etc. It varies a lot.


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## 10wskali (14 Mar 2018)

Good day,

I made a big decision this week to accept my offer for NCSE officer at the age of 30. I am doing very well in my current career, making good money and progressing quickly. However, for me, this is a once in a life time opportunity and now is always better than later for making a positive career change. So I will be quitting my job for what I am confident will throw years of fulfilling challenges my way. I have spent a lot of time researching this trade; the community here has been extremely helpful. I have dedicated many days to driving hundreds of km's to my nearest recruitment centre to listen to the recruiters' and career advisors' experiences. 

I understand that laziness is not tolerated here so hear me when I say, I have searched far and wide, as far as reading several issues of Maritime Engineering Journals, to get a better sense of what I am getting myself into. I apolgize in advance, if the insight I am looking for is hidden somewhere in the archives of this forum.

I can't help but feel uneasy joining at the age of 30, knowing there will be NCSE's, my age with 6-7 years of experience already. 

So my questions are simple: Does the Navy play favourites when considering RMC graduates over DEO's for available positions? A senior career advisor told me that RMC graduates have the benefit of having a network, and have an advantage. Is it unreasonable for an NCSE starting their career at the age of 30, to rise above the rank of Lt(N) in the next 30 years of their career? The same career advisor told me that I would have to "walk on water" if I were to ever achieve rank of Captain(N). I am of the understanding that senior officer ranks are difficult to achieve, but now I am starting to question whether it is even possible for a late-joiner DEO to do so. This being a huge life changing commitment, I am curious, what realistic opportunities there are in the private sector for NCSE's that decide to leave the Navy (your first hand experience and knowledge here would be appreciated). I have been told, by an ex-Navy member that was stationed on HMCS Kootenay, that NCSE's are basically useless in the civilian world; again not something you want to hear shortly after signing an offer. I was also curious, what happens when you reach the maximum number of pay increments for a given rank, say Lt(N). I believe I read somewhere on this forum that you simply stop getting incremental raises, unless of course you get promoted. 

Your answers, comments and insights are welcome. I am sure I may have more questions to come at some point.

I am very humbled and proud to be a part of this all. Can't wait to get started and find out what I'm really made of.

Cheers.  8)


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## mariomike (14 Mar 2018)

John Kanaka said:
			
		

> I am curious, what realistic opportunities there are in the private sector for NCSE's that decide to leave the Navy (your first hand experience and knowledge here would be appreciated). I have been told, by an ex-Navy member that was stationed on HMCS Kootenay, that NCSE's are basically useless in the civilian world;



Just what I read on the CAF site,

QUOTE

Naval Combat Systems Engineering Officer

Related civilian occupations

Although this occupation has no direct related civilian job, the management, leadership and instructing skills developed in this position are highly valued by employers.
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/caf-jobs/career-options/fields-work/engineers/naval-combat-systems-engineering-officer.html

END QUOTE


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## 10wskali (14 Mar 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Just what I read on the CAF site,



Thank you for your response. I was hoping to get a little more than that though  :


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## mariomike (14 Mar 2018)

John Kanaka said:
			
		

> Thank you for your response.



You are welcome.


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## 10wskali (16 Mar 2018)

For all prospective NCSE's, I found this to be the most thorough explanation of what the life of an NCSE is like from BMOQ to your HOD tour. Although it was written in 2008, I think the only thing that has changed is that NOAB is no longer extended out to NCSE's and MSE's.

https://everything2.com/title/Naval+Combat+Systems+Engineering+Officer


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## WEng87 (16 Mar 2018)

I am a Weapons Engineering Technician, so the NCMs of your future department.

I can definitely answer one of your questions, as it is standard across all ranks,  once you reach the top incentive for pay in your rank that is where you stay till you are promoted.  Once you are promoted you slide directly across... so say you were at Lt(N) Incentive 4 you would slide over to LCdr Incentive 4 (If there is one).


As for making it to a "4 ringer" Captain(N)...  I am pretty sure there are only 5 Captain(N) positions for NCS ENG... which are actually "ANY TRADE" positions, and currently none of them are occupied by actual NCS Engs.

There are about 70 LCdr positions for NCS Eng/Sea Eng with a few Any Trades as well...  but when you think about it 70 positions out of 324 positions (I mean hard only NCS Eng/Sea Eng positions, not the "Any Trade") at all rank levels, that still some small numbers.  So yeah you may not have to walk on water, but you may need to stay afloat above your ankles. You're fighting against a lot of people to get to thos positions.

Disclaimer: I am only going by what I can find on the DIN wrt the NCS Eng positions, there may be more NCS Engs out there in the "Any Trade" positions...  which really when you get to the rank of Captain(N), it's more about if you're best for a particular job, not so much your trade.


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## Blackadder1916 (16 Mar 2018)

WEng87 said:
			
		

> I am a Weapons Engineering Technician, so the NCMs of your future department.
> 
> I can definitely answer one of your questions, as it is standard across all ranks,  once you reach the top incentive for pay in your rank that is where you stay till you are promoted.  Once you are promoted you slide directly across... so say you were at Lt(N) Incentive 4 you would slide over to LCdr Incentive 4 (If there is one).



Wrong.

While it may have been your personal experience on promotion appointment to MS (you are using that insignia as your avatar), that is the only rank to which that applies.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits/ch-204-pay-policy-officers-ncms.page#sec-204-04


> 204.04 - Rate of Pay on Promotion
> 
> 204.04(1) (General) The rate of pay on promotion or commission for an officer up to the rank of lieutenant-general and for a non-commissioned member is based on the member’s rate of pay on the day prior to their promotion.  A pay increment higher than basic in the new rank may be determined in accordance with this instruction.
> 
> ...


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## WEng87 (16 Mar 2018)

Right.

I stand corrected.


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## Underway (18 Mar 2018)

Roglie said:
			
		

> I can't help but feel uneasy joining at the age of 30, knowing there will be NCSE's, my age with 6-7 years of experience already.
> 
> Totally understandable.  I switched into NCSE at the age of 36
> 
> ...



You won't have to worry about your incremental pay raises ending anytime soon.  It takes about 4 years to reach the Lt(N) rank while going through 2-3 promotions (NCdt-ASLt-SLt). There are 10 pay increments in Lt(N).  In total you have 14 years to work with to get promoted to LCdr.  The top pay increment for Lt(N) is about $109 thousand a year IIRC. You'll be ok.


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## EnchantedEng (22 Jan 2020)

Roglie said:
			
		

> For all prospective NCSE's, I found this to be the most thorough explanation of what the life of an NCSE is like from BMOQ to your HOD tour. Although it was written in 2008, I think the only thing that has changed is that NOAB is no longer extended out to NCSE's and MSE's.
> 
> https://everything2.com/title/Naval+Combat+Systems+Engineering+Officer



Hi,
I have been through the post at the link posted above. Its amazingly detailed and very interesting, but also dated 2009. How accurate is the information in 2020?


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## Navy_Pete (22 Jan 2020)

Basically still the same; the obvious one being that the Iroquois class has been retired, and the equipment on the ships is a bit newer.

More of an emphasis on project/risk management, as well as understanding how contracts work (especially with the in-service support contracts), as well as DRMIS (a particularized version of the SAP software) will affect your day to day life, but in general the career path hasn't changed a lot in 20 or 30 years.

Day to day is probably less hands on/into the technical than it used to be, but there are a lot of black boxes on the CSE gear, so after you've turned it on and off again, troubleshot the interfaces and set points and swapped cards out, its usually over to the equipment experts for advice.  The depth of training in all our technical trades is being reduced, so as the systems become even more complex, the amount of down and dirty technical stuff we can do shrinks.


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