# MERGED:  Depleted uranium (effects, hunger strike, etc.)



## 3rd Horseman

Last night I watched CTV news, they had a clip on Gulf War syndrome. For me it brought back issues of depleted uranium poisoning problems during that war but specifically for my concern Bosnia. Has anyone out there suspected they have been poisoned with DU or been exposed to it and what effects did it bring on. I have always contended that I was poisoned and have gotten little support from CF med staff on the issue.   I used the search function but found no details on the subject.
Anyone suffering? Any med staff know of testing results?


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## AmmoTech90

First off, my sympathies on your poisoning.  You might want to follow up on the BOI held regarding Mike Peace.

However you may recieve more sympathy if you give some.  To paraphrase you-


			
				3rd Horseman said:
			
		

> Go to the base talk to _your supervisors from that time_ they have no axe to grind they wont lie or cover anything up they will tell you the truth.



Seems like you are not the only person who feels they have not recieved full support from the CF.  Those in glass houses...

Edit: Grammer


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## armyvern

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> Those in glass houses...


Oops!! :-\


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## 3rd Horseman

Your funny! 
    I can only hope that someone on these means has the inside knowledge that I have on AO and can tell the truth on DU like I tried to on AO. The problem is that I have the details on AO and so does several people at Gagetown but it would appear that people on the AO thread don't want to hear anything that deviates from there claim. I can only hope to hear everyones opinion on the subject of DU the difference is I wont get abusive to a member who posts an idea concept or reasonable opinion. 

Thanks for the direction on M Peace I will check it out.   
I hope this thread on DU does not get highjacked into an AO discussion.


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## Brad Sallows

There is plenty of literature on the web on both the toxic and radiological effects of DU.  On the toxic side, for example, DU tends to cause kidney trouble.  You can compare your own signs and symptoms with what is in the literature.  DU might not be the culprit.


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## paracowboy

3rd Horseman said:
			
		

> I hope this thread on DU does not get highjacked into an AO discussion.


then why bring it up?


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## 3rd Horseman

Brad,

   It was response to the sarcasm of the 2nd and 3rd post. Long story see AO thread.


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## Fishbone Jones

So listen there 3rd Horse, maybe you can do us a favour. I'm wondering if it might be easier for you to list the things you haven't done, places you haven't been and things that aren't wrong with you. Might save you a lot of typing, and us alot of reading. The list has definately got to be shorter, given your past posting history. Just a suggestion.


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## 3rd Horseman

Just a simple DU question, 

You served with the 8CH so did I, thats a start.


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## Fishbone Jones

Not unless your talking the early 70's


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## Gunner98

3rd Horseman says, "I have always contended that I was poisoned and have gotten little support from CF med staff on the issue."   Contentions are one thing - have you been tested for "DU poisoning" - what did the indepedent lab results show?

Circa January 2001 http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=218
To date, 104 veterans of the Gulf War and of Balkan peacekeeping operations have requested this testing. The tests have found no evidence of increased uranium levels among CF members of either the Gulf War or Balkans peacekeeping missions. Levels have been normal and the isotope ratios have been compatible with natural uranium exposure. Although the results of these tests do not support the theory that members were exposed to toxic levels of depleted uranium, we continue to encourage anyone with any concern about possible DU exposure to consult CF medical staff to obtain facts on the issue. Testing will also continue to be offered to all those who request it.


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## 3rd Horseman

Gunner,

  Yes I was tested after years of requests. The result showed elevated levels of the isotope but within the Canadian max limit for a uranium miner or person who lived in a uranium mine area. Further testing was done and the results never arrived back into my file. I don think that was on purpose at least I hope not. Furthermore on results elevated levels are after (in my case) some 7 years, with a half life calculation and 98% being pissed out of the body in the first 48 hours the level of contamination at exp[osure is massive. So in a nutshell the CF testing is not that accurate an the results are skewed.  
  Heres the problem with the past testing that I know. The testing for the DU isotope in the Balkan vets was only offered to the Croatian guys who were near to or with the unit that worked with the bauxite tailings. It was expanded to others from that theatre but refused for the Bosnia vets. The BOI that was done was for Croatia not for Bosnia. I got my testing done after much aggravation and proving that I was in Croatia for part of my mission, but not for the Bosnian mission. 
  Problem with Cdn testing for DU is that they only test for DU isotope not the enriched isotope (plutonium) reason being they don't believe that plutonium was in the DU ammo as DU is uranium that has been depleted of those isotopes. Issue being that US war stocks appear to have had trace elements of plutonium which suggests nuc reactor fuel rods (reactor waste) were used as projectiles not actual DU or a mix. So you may have a trace amount of DU acceptable in the Cdn society but you wont know how much if any plutonium you have in you a far site worse.


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## the 48th regulator

And you have brought this up with both you family doctor and VAC, correct?

dileas

tess


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## Fishbone Jones

I'd like to know where you think you may have been exposed to DU. You didn't gun or handle it. You certainly weren't hit by it. So what makes you think you were exposed to it, or entitled to a claim because of it.


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## Gunner98

Since 2001 DU testing has been available thru CF/VAC for absolutley anyone and everyone who has ever served in the CF, it has not been mission specific.  DU can be tested for in bone and hair samples as well.  The bone sample is much more invasive as I am sure you could appreciate.  The CF does not do the testing it is done by independent labs who specialize in this area through a contract.


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## 48Highlander

Trace ammounts of plutonium?  Sure, they're there, but for you to have any significant ammount of plutonium in your system, the ammount of uranium in you would have to be through the roof.  That's what "trace ammount" means.


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## 3rd Horseman

48th 
     My family doc does not know too complicated for his interest, VAC does not know because I have   not claimed for it, they would know indirectly as it is in my med files. 
Recce guy, 
     DU was used extensively in Bosnia during the last phases of the war, I was on the ground conducting supported attacks by aircraft firing DU into targets we were attacking and fighting through. Some of the heaviest concentrations of DU in the world are in specific target areas of Bosnia.

  I am aware you cannot get DU poisoning through the handling of projectiles it can only come from inhaling the dust particles in the target area an example would be burning tanks, bunkers. This is why most Gulf War tested personnel show no sighns of the poisoning since they were no were near the front line and handling the ammo (navy) is safe.


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## KevinB

3rd Horseman said:
			
		

> DU was used extensively in Bosnia during the last phases of the war, I was on the ground conducting supported attacks by aircraft firing DU into targets we were attacking and fighting through. Some of the heaviest concentrations of DU in the world are in specific target areas of Bosnia.











  





> I am aware you cannot get DU poisoning through the handling of projectiles it can only come from inhaling the dust particles in the target area an example would be burning tanks, bunkers. This is why most Gulf War tested personnel show no sighns of the poisoning since they were no were near the front line and handling the ammo (navy) is safe.



So as a deep reconaissance FAC - you crawled around shot out enemy vehicles to do military tourism?


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## Acorn

3rd Horseman said:
			
		

> DU was used extensively in Bosnia during the last phases of the war, I was on the ground conducting supported attacks by aircraft firing DU into targets we were attacking and fighting through. Some of the heaviest concentrations of DU in the world are in specific target areas of Bosnia.



Pardon? WTF? I wish I had Kevin's BS flag icon, cause I'd run 'er right up the pole here.


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## Slim

Someone has to do this I guess and I suppose it has to be me...

3rd Horseman.

Alott of what you say and have said is becoming more and more highly suspect with the DS staff and other senior members here.

Given your (known and proven) service record I fail to see why you need to exagerate or embelish your accomplishments to us or anyone else.

Please take the time to consider the long term effects of distorting the facts or your experiences on this or any other military site. Please belive me when I say that word gets around. This is a small army and, at the end of the day, much can be verified. The net does not provide the amount of security and anonymousness that you probably think it does.

Ball's in your court.

Slim
STAFF


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## the 48th regulator

I think Slim summed it up, but I have to throw this one in





			
				3rd Horseman said:
			
		

> 48th
> My family doc does not know too complicated for his interest, VAC does not know because I have   not claimed for it, they would know indirectly as it is in my med files.



You are absolutely wrong on both counts.  



> My family doc does not know too complicated for his interest,



sorry didn't know you had a medical degree to boot to make an assessment on a Doctor....it is YOUR responsibility to let him know, he is not a mind reader.



> VAC does not know because I have   not claimed for it, they would know indirectly as it is in my med files.



Well then instead of claiming for it here and whining about it, maybe if you took the time to CLAIM it with VAC proper tests can be done to assess your injury and help with treatment or claim. As for them knowing indirectly??  What planet do you live on?  The VAC will not move on anything unless you ask them to, trust me I KNOW!!!.

You know,  it is a shame, You could have offered a lot more to this site, other than daily humour.  It is guys like you that make it that much more of a battle for those of us that try to relay the truth and get help....

dileas

tess


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## 3rd Horseman

Kevin B, you called BS on the below post, Which part is BS. point 1 2 or 3?  

Point 1 {" DU was used extensively in Bosnia during the last phases of the war",} 3 Tons to be exact some 10,000 to 11,00 rounds fired from cruise missels, cluster bombs, A-10s, Spector Gun ships, Harm missles and a few other smaller unusual systems. So who do you think chose those targets and then directed those rounds onto the targets?
Point 2 {"I was on the ground conducting supported attacks by aircraft firing DU into targets we were attacking and fighting through."} I would suggest when one fires DU at a target it is an attack. And when it is destroyed and you occupy it in pursuit of the remaining targets it is fightng through.
Point 3 "Some of the heaviest concentrations of DU in the world are in specific target areas of Bosnia." The NATO information web site on DU detauils that the most DU fired was in GW but in Bosnia it was very concentrated on a few spots.

Your last point below, I never said that and dont think it woud compared to mil tourist. The units that I supported did that. 
"So as a deep reconaissance FAC - you crawled around shot out enemy vehicles to do military tourism?"

So you are calling the post BS is it that you dont beleive DU was used or you dont believe soldiers were exposed? I would be pleased to clarify more if required.


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## George Wallace

3rd Horseman said:
			
		

> Kevin B, you called BS on the below post, Which part is BS. point 1 2 or 3?
> 
> Point 1 {" DU was used extensively in Bosnia during the last phases of the war",} 3 Tons to be exact some 10,000 to 11,00 rounds fired from cruise missels, cluster bombs, A-10s, Spector Gun ships, Harm missles and a few other smaller unusual systems. So who do you think chose those targets and then directed those rounds onto the targets?



I don't know about Kevin but something about that post strikes me as way out to lunch.   Let's see if we can clean it up some:

3 Tons of ordinance was fired in Bosnia.  That consisted of some 10,000 to 11,00 rounds fired from  A-10s and Spector Gun ships, as well as the use of cruise missiles, cluster bombs, Harm missles and a few other smaller unusual systems.

Now.  I have never seen DU fired from a missile or a bomb, or used in a missile or bomb, yet.  I can accept the use of DU rounds in A-10s and Spector, but not in missiles, bombs and "other smaller unusual systems."  

BS may baffle brains, but we are trying to be factual here.


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## KevinB

The HARM (Highspeed Anti-Radiation Missile) is designed to target enemy radar -- it is NOT a penetrator system but a bursting munition - and needs (and has no DU) no dense material for penetration.

 AC-130's -- please explain what delivery system for a DU munition?

A-10's do not use DU exclusively they primarily fire a Tungsten Carbine slug in the 30mm GAU-8.


The primary source of DU weapondry is 120mm M1A1/A2 Tank rounds - I dont recall the US being heavily engaged in your UNPROFOR missions...



While I do not dispute DU being used - I beleive that it was used very selectively - with enough target locations that you could count on ones fingers...
   Secondly in order for soliders to be exposed - they would either have to be in a vehicle like a M1A2 that has a DU armour glassis plate that was stuck by a round and airated the DU  -- or crawl thru a vehicle that was targeted by a DU penetrator munition.


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## Teddy Ruxpin

OK, enough is enough.

I had cause, as part of an investigation years ago (yes, in theatre) to have a hard look at the use of DU in the Balkans.   The Americans kept very careful records of rounds fired and eight-figure grid of each location that DU was fired.   Why?   Because the rounds were fired in support of the UN and political considerations required a VERY accurate view of where and when that was done.

First point:   DU was fired in less than 20 instances.   Tons?   Give me a break! Here are the friggin' grids:

*A-10 Employment of 30mm Munitions* 

# Date        Target      #Rounds                     Location 
1 5-Aug-94 76mm AT Self-Prop Gun 860 43443.2N 18210.9E 
2 22-Sep-94 T-55 Tank 120 43523.7N 18170.2E 
3 30-Aug-95 Warehouse UNKWN Vic Sarajevo 
4 30-Aug-95 Artillery/Bunker UNKWN Vic Sarajevo 
5 30-Aug-95 120mm artillery UNKWN Vic Sarajevo 
6 30-Aug-95 AAA UNKWN Vic Sarajevo 
7 30-Aug-95 Mortar Position UNKWN Vic Sarajevo 
8 30-Aug-95 Mortar Position UNKWN Vic Sarajevo 
9 5-Sep-95 Hadzici Mil Repair Facility 800 434932.7N 181122.9E 
10 7-Sep-95 Han Pijesak Army Storage 700 440522.0N 185655.7E, 440525.1N 185653.7E, 440527.2N 185653.5E, 440539.6N 185649.7E, 440540.0N 185645.0E
11 7-Sep-95 Han Pijesak Army Storage 700 440522.0N 185655.7E, 440525.1N 185653.7E, 440527.2N 185653.5E, 440539.6N 185649.7E, 440540.0N 185645.0E 
12 7-Sep-95 Han Pijesak Army Storage 500 440539.6N 185649.7E, 440540.0N 185645.0E, 440540.3N 185642.5E
13 7-Sep-95 Han Pijesak Army Storage 500 440539.6N 185649.7E, 440540.0N 185645.0E,440540.3N 185642.5E 
14 9-Sep-95 Hadzici Mil Repair Facility 350 434939.1N 181117.3E 
15 9-Sep-95 Hadzici Mil Repair Facility 350 434939.1N 181117.3E 
16 11-Sep-95 Hadzici Ammo Storage Depot 400 4348N 1812E 
17 11-Sep-95 Hadzici Ammo Storage Depot 400 4348N 1812E 
18 11-Sep-95 Hadzici Ammo Storage Depot 550 4348N 1812E 
19 11-Sep-95 Hadzici Ammo Storage Depot 550 4348N 1812E 

You can find this online here - it is the same list as we used in 2000:   http://www.nato.int/du/docu/d010124b.htm

Second point:   there are only two weapons systems in the US inventory that use DU - 120mm tank (there is a 105 round, but the Yanks don't fire it) and 30 mm cannon.   The latter was used in strikes against armoured targets at the latter part of the war - largely in the Sarajevo area.   No other DU systems were used.

Third point:   we determined that there was little chance of any Canadian being near where the DU was actually fired.   We had one "soldier" claiming DU poisoning from the camp in Velika Kladusa, which resulting in my looking into this in the first place

Last point:   there are NO cluster bomb DU rounds, HARM missiles don't use DU, nor do AC-130s, as others have pointed out.   I will stand corrected, but only with someone who can quote me chapter and verse from Jane's or by an ammo tech. (edit:  Brit has sorted me out on 25mm that do indeed have DU penetrators...Back to the old rule for Sunday mornings - coffee, then post!  The rest of this stands, though.)

Instead of panicking people with complete BS, get your facts straight.

Teddy, out.


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## George Wallace

On the point of being factual.
From the FAS site:


> The Thunderbolt II's 30mm GAU-8/A Gatling gun can fire 3,900 rounds a minute and can defeat an array of ground targets to include tanks.



At that rate of fire and the amount that you claim as being fired in Bosnia, we can assume that the A 10s alone fired their cannons for a period of less than 5 minutes total.   ( I rounded up I know, it was more like 3.9 minutes.)


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## Gunner

NATO has a very good site outlining DU use in Bosnia, Serbia and Kosovo.   Not surprisingly, Kosovo had the most incidents of DU use.   Bosnia on the other hand only had 19 confirmed locations (including multiple engagements at the same location).



> With regard to Bosnia, they're trying to define down a little more the exact sites of some of the air strikes which were against moving targets, such as tanks. But I can repeat again, as I have before, that all of the air strikes involving DU munitions in Bosnia were either within the 20km exclusion zone around Sarajevo or Han Pijeak, which is somewhat further out and was the Serbian military complex which housed the headquarters of the Bosnian Serb army. There were no strikes in any other area, so anyway that material is on the website and it's again part of what we're trying to do in the realm of transparency and openness, so with that I'm very happy to take your questions.



http://www.nato.int/du/home.htm


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## Teddy Ruxpin

Gunner:  scroll up... (heh)


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## Gunner

You won this time, young Jedi, next time, you will not be so lucky.   :threat:


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## 3rd Horseman

George, Good question here is a partial answer

COGHILL RESEARCH LABORATORIES LOWER RACE, PONTYPOOL, GWENT NP4 5UH 
Tel: 00 44 1495 763389 Fax: 00 44 1495 769882 
The public at large, both in UK and in Yugoslavia, are unaware that 30 mm bullets being fired by A-10 anti-tank aircraft and probably all Tomahawk Cruise missiles in this action contain depleted uranium (DU). 

A more recent case of DU ammunition use was during the conflicts in Kosovo and Bosnia. An interesting thing to note is that no major chemical or biological weaponry was used or numerous NBC sites bombed during both conflicts. Even though Yugoslavia has done extensive research into chemical weaponry, no significant amount was used in both conflicts. Hence, the only potentially hazardous device used was DU ammunition. At first, NATO claimed that DU ammunition was not being used at all. No mention was made until a small group of NATO soldiers started dying from blood/renal/rectal related cancers in a very short period of time and the term "Balkan War Syndrome" came into full force.14f New Tomahawk cruise missiles armed with a 3kg DU warhead core were first used in Bosnia 
DEPLETED URANIUM
ETHICS OF THE SILVER BULLETBy: Iliya Pesic


Depleted uranium has also been fired by NATO forces during operations in Bosnia in 1994 and 1995, 
NATO WEB SITE

The Pentagon used DU in large amounts in Iraq in 1991, in Bosnia in 1995 and in Kosovo in 1999. 


The number of targets hit by DU rounds through out the rest of Yugoslavia was not reported. About 10,000 rounds were fired by U.S. NATO forces in Bosnia in 1994-95. 

In mid-December the Italian government launched an inquiry into why some of their military personnel have recently died of leukemia. Defense Minister Sergio Mattarella had affirmed that "10,800 depleted uranium projectiles were fired by American aircraft" on Bosnia between 1994 and 1995. Without naming them explicitly, Mattarella accused the U.S. military officials of hiding information about DU from allies. 

International Action Center
39 West 14th Street, Room 206
New York, NY 10011
email: iacenter@iacenter.org 
En Espanol: el_iac@yahoo.com
web: www.iacenter.org 
CHECK OUT THE NEW SITE www.mumia2000.org 
phone: 212 633-6646
fax: 212 633-2889


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## Teddy Ruxpin

That's not an answer.  We're dealing with Bosnia here and only A-10 DU was used over that theatre.  What you've posted says nothing that contradicts that, unless you're claiming to have been in Kosovo too??  Want the grids and round expenditure for that conflict?


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## Gunner

Here is the UNEP report into Bosnia, Kosovo and Serbia.

http://postconflict.unep.ch/publications/BiH_DU_report.pdf

For 3rd Horseman - As you are searching the internet for any type of fact/evidence to support your wildly inaccurate comments, you may wish to stay away from left wing "institutes" that bend scientific fact and reasoning with their own perverted views.

http://www.iacenter.org/


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## Britney Spears

> Second point:  there are only two weapons systems in the US inventory that use DU - 120mm tank (there is a 105 round, but the Yanks don't fire it) and 30 mm cannon.  The latter was used in strikes against armoured targets at the latter part of the war - largely in the Sarajevo area.  No other DU systems were used.



*cough*25mm Bushmaster M242 Chaingun*cough* 

Any of you black hats ever heard of it? Something about defeating T-72s or some such?  ;D

The USMC uses DU PG-20 rounds in the GAU-12 gatling  pods on their AV8 Harriers, LAV25,  and also on the M197/AH1 Cobra. the AC-130 also uses the GAU-12, but apparently not the DU ammunition.

I don't even own any Janes publications either.


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## Teddy Ruxpin

> *cough*25mm Bushmaster M242 Chaingun*cough*


 Right - M919 round - forgot about that one.

It wasn't used over the Bos, though, nor were any of GAU-12 systems.


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## 3rd Horseman

The numbers for Kosovo which I am not talking about are around 10 tons of DU Bosnia was 3 Tons

The authors: E. Schmid, Ch. Wirz
The shaped charge technology also employs uranium. By focusing explosives in one direction e.g. by containing them with a conical or concave hemisphere metal liner, detonation compresses and squeezes the liner forward, forming a jet of molten metal traveling as fast as 10 km/s. Jane's website indicated some time ago that DU was used as "liners in shaped charge warheads". Guided weapons ranging from Maverick and Hellfire missiles to torpedoes, sub-munitions in cluster bombs and the first stage of BROACH MWS warheads use this technology. At his website Williams provides an in-depth, up-to-date review of both the HDBTDC and shaped charge weaponry. 

   Yes gunner you are right I am going up to NATO site to pull down data to support the contetion of DU usage in more than just a-10s in Bosnia since that is were I read it first.

The contention that only A-10s fired DU in Bosnia, id like to see that proof.


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## Teddy Ruxpin

*sigh*

Well, if you're trying to prove a conspiracy, have at 'er.   All I can tell you is that in 2000, when this was looked into, there were 19 instances where DU was used over Bosnia.   The fact that there are other types of DU rounds available is immaterial to this discussion.   There were all sorts of things flying around Bosnia in 1995 - TLAM, GBUs, stand off missiles (Maverick and the like) - on and on.   NATO says - and they have zero reason to lie - that only A-10 DU munitions were used on strikes in the Sarajevo region, the remainder were conventional.

Here's a day by day account of the airstrikes and the types of aircraft/weapons used:   http://www.hri.org/docs/nato/execute.html

Here's a list of rounds expended - by type (same source):

PRECISION MUNITIONS



TYPE MUNITION                     LGB/GBU                                         GUIDED MISSLES                                 TLAM
                                                  10   12   16   24                     AS30L        SLAM   GBU-15   MAV

TOTAL                                 303 125 215   6                          4                    10              9         23                        13

TOTAL LGB/GBU: 653

TOTAL EO/IR:      42

TOTAL TLAM:        13

GRAND TOTAL:     708

NON-PRECISION MUNITIONS

TYPE MUNITION            MK82           MK83        MK84        CBU-87

TOTAL                                 175                 99           42              2

GRAND TOTAL: 318

OTHER MUNITIONS

GUN / CANNON              20MM         30MM        40MM        105MM

TOTAL                                   0              *10086*           50                 350

GRAND TOTAL: 10486

Other:        2.75 ROCKETS - 20      AGM-88 HARM   - 56



Apparently, DU causes brain damage too...


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## 48Highlander

3rd Horseman said:
			
		

> *International Action Center*
> 39 West 14th Street, Room 206
> New York, NY 10011
> email: iacenter@iacenter.org
> En Espanol: el_iac@yahoo.com
> web: www.iacenter.org
> CHECK OUT THE NEW SITE *www.mumia2000.org *
> phone: 212 633-6646
> fax: 212 633-2889



So your source of info links to the IAC and website dedicated to defending a cop-killer?

 :cheers:

Might want to rethink that one.


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## Acorn

3rd Horseman said:
			
		

> The contention that only A-10s fired DU in Bosnia, id like to see that proof.



Umm, you're contending "tons" of DU in Bosnia. You've been offered substantiated proof of just over 10,000 rounds of 30mm DU being fired in Bosnia - that would amount to your "tons" (or would it - how much does the DU slug in a 30mm weigh? Anyone? Anyone?) Yet you seem to want others to prove that nothing else DU was fired. Maybe you should be proving your own contention.

If I were to say you are an idiot, I'd be expected to prove it. It wouldn't be up to you to prove me wrong. Would it?

Acorn


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## Edward Campbell

If good old FAS is to be believed, and we usually do accept their data, I think, then 3.328 tons of DU were _depositied_.  That's tons, to be sure, just precious few of them.
See: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/equip/gau-8.htm


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## 3rd Horseman

Teddy,

    Agreed all good info easily found up on NATO site, for those that were there all well known. No conspiracy contemplated here, it took until 2000 for NATO to admit DU usage and cruise usage but thats fine it was probably OPSEC since the usage was happening at the time in Kosovo. The UNEP study that Gunner focused me to is also a good source but there is a contention that the UNEP study was focused on mobile targets and specifically A-10 activity, some have claimed that other weapons systems were not in the UNEP study such as cruise and missiles and specter. I agree lots of stuff was around in Bosnia at the time and it may not have been DU tipped but then it may have. That is the reason for the thread possibly someone out there has some info on the usage specifically rather than regurgitating what is found at public sites. The Hiadici barracks were hit with more than a few A-10 sorties. 
 Gunner has a point about left wing sites and the care that must be taken to ensure that the source is not propaganda but they are sources just like a right wing site is a source.

To all that responded Thanks for the help so far and for the insults well...........what can I say.


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## 3rd Horseman

Acorn,

     NATO admits to 3 Tons fired in Bosnia I dont think thats in dispute. It would calculate close to the number of rounds fired by A-10s but not all. Not trying to pick flyshit out of pepper here.     

Tech data for A-10 round and is mixed 1 to 4(4 rounds DU per 5) " each DU projectile contains approximately 4,650 grains [0.66 pounds (lbs)] of extruded DU, alloyed with 0.75 weight percent titanium".


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## Acorn

3rd Horseman said:
			
		

> Acorn,
> 
> NATO admits to 3 Tons fired in Bosnia I dont think thats in dispute. It would calculate close to the number of rounds fired by A-10s but not all. Not trying to pick flyshit out of pepper here.



Well, given that NATO only acknowledges 30mm, what would explain it? Is the number NATO gives simply "3 tons," "approximately 3 tons" or something else? If a 30mm DU slug weighs less than a pound, then the 10k+ rounds would add up to approximately 3 tons. No?

You do the math for me. It's your claim. The Talking Bear has been kind enough to provide a great deal of detail (and his "cred" here is quite high), so why don't you do the same.


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## 3rd Horseman

I defer to the talking bear with the calculator.

Although as I stood on the airstrip at the ammo hanger Aviano and asked the ammo tech in charge of all ammo resupply for the A-10s total DU expenditure he said and I quote " we don't keep those figures we are reloading and sending them out to fast whats in the big bin is about XXXcasings and I just give an estimate on ammo expenditure, nobody much cares and me and the boys are much too busy to care whats important is they come back and they are empty" or as close as I can remember his comment.
Take it for what its worth or will someone dispute I was in Aviano talking to the chief Ammo tech?


----------



## Chimo

I will offer a personal story from Kuwait/Iraq. Our Squadron was deployed there following the first Gulf War in 1993. Our Engineer support to the DMZ included getting rid of hazardous explosives. Our sections spent many a day hauling out tank rounds from shot up T -72  and T-65 Iraqi tanks. Presumably some of these tanks would have been killed by DU ammo. The work was hot, dusty and trying. 

When the message came out offering the testing for DU in the soldiers. I did some research and found that the danger was from inhaling particle of DU mainly from dust. I had a legitimate concern as I may have been exposed.

I was tested, saved a lot of urine over a two day period and came back with a result of "lower level then the general Canadian population" or words to that effect. I trust the medical system and it relieved my concerns. If you have concerns, get tested.


----------



## Britney Spears

> Although as I stood on the airstrip at the ammo hanger Aviano and asked the ammo tech in charge of all ammo resupply for the A-10s total DU expenditure he said and I quote " we don't keep those figures we are reloading and sending them out to fast whats in the big bin is about XXXcasings and I just give an estimate on ammo expenditure, nobody much cares and me and the boys are much too busy to care whats important is they come back and they are empty" or as close as I can remember his comment.
> Take it for what its worth or will someone dispute I was in Aviano talking to the chief Ammo tech?



Not that I have a race in this horse, but why would HE need to account for every single round fired, on the spot? He can wait until the end of the day, and just count the crates left, less from the number of crates be started out with,  right? Someone had to have signed for each of those rounds before they were loaded.


----------



## Acorn

3rd Horseman,

You've claimed above that munitions other than 30mm DU were used in Bosnia, and account for the 3 tons of DU used. Can you provide *any* proof that other munitions were used? So far all you've said is that "DU was used in wpn X" and implying it was, therefore, used in Bosnia. 

Now you you say the ammo tech in Aviano didn't know how much was expended (are you surprised). So where does the 3 tons number come from? Did the Serbs dig it up and weigh it?

You're making claims, so back them up. If you get called on it and can't back it up, just say so.


----------



## 043

Good morning all,

I was posted with 1 CER when we deployed to Kuwait after the first Gulf War. DU was everywhere and since then, we have all been tested for DU. The test itself is fairly simple in that you piss in bottles for a day or two (collecting all of your urine), bring it in, it gets shipped for testing and then you get the results. If you are not happy with those results you can send hair samples for further testing.

Your MIR should be able to help you with this.

Chimo!


----------



## 3rd Horseman

Acorn,
     You have a point.
     I cannot prove that other than 30mm A-10 DU rounds were used to the satisfaction of this forum if I am only allowed to use public NATO, right wing or Jane's among others info. Personal observation, first hand accounts and left leaning sites appear not to be a valid position to argue from. 
What I can say is that:
Spector gun ships (Ghost) were used but the weapons they employed and rounds they fired are buried in OPSEC only those that were involved with the ghost activities can say for sure.
Bunker buster bombs and cruise missiles were used and they are normally kitted with DU for the task of busting hardend sites or sites that require a high heat to ignite secondary explosions beyond hardend shell protection ie. ammo depots. I have provided reference info from sites that support my suggestion that since weapons are kitted with the DU variant war head it would be a simple deduction to theorise that they were used for the task they were created. 

On A-10 30mm   -   the 3 tons is an educated guess the ammo tech of course would have difficulty detailling the amount, my point was that they did not care and did not count thus a speculation of deductive reasoning to assume that the count was off. Furthermore the weight of a DU round as posted earlier is .66 of a lb...is that the whole round or just the DU sabo? The DU round is mixed at a ratio of 75% Titanium to DU thus DU is 25% of .66lb is that sabo or whole projectile? At a mix rate in the belt of 4 rounds DU to one of HE then is the calculation total DU rounds fired or full belts? I can tell you that from personal observation that belly bins of the A-10 flying combat missions that I saw had full bellies of no combat mix, which means 100% belts of DU, this is a personal observation and I guess doesn't count in this forum because if it did it may go against my calculation. So the actual count is in question from my humble opinion. If you use my calculation then 10,000 rounds equals 1.7 tons by using the 75% .66lb formula.      

     This probably wont count since it is personal observation but I will throw it out for what its worth you be the judge. A-10s flew few missions over Hidizi, of those they flew they flew well after the initial attacks from bombs these missions were to insure that a couple of tanks that could possibly be salvaged   were disabled with minimal collateral damage. It is hard for me to believe the amount of DU in this area came from those few missions in my opinion it is more likely the results of the hundreds of pounds of DU found in the Lazer guided bombs dropped on Hidizi, just MHO.      

Thanks for the advise Chimo guys I was piss tested and hair tested.

Anyone out there do a demo flight in a ghost in 95 and can comment on the weapon usage?
Anyone in an air job that can comment on a bomb weapon using DU in 94/95?


EDIT:  1,700 lbs not 1.7T should read 1,700 lbs equals .8 Ton thanks below.


----------



## 48Highlander

That's some pretty bad math...

.66lbs * 10,000 rnds = 6600 lbs = 2993 kilos

assuming only 25% is DU:

2993 kilos * 0.25 = 748 kilos, or 0.748 tons


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## 3rd Horseman

Yes you are right it was 1,700 lbs not tons approx which is .8 Tons approx, thanks. So the question is were did the other 2.2 tons go and how did they calc it.


----------



## Teddy Ruxpin

The .66 pounds is the DU content of a 30mm round.   The 2,993 kg comes close enough to 3 tonnes in my books - there's no "missing" DU.

From the FAS website:   http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/equip/gau-8.htm



> When manufactured as 30mm rounds, each DU projectile contains approximately 4,650 grains [0.66 pounds (lbs)] of extruded DU, alloyed with 0.75 weight percent titanium. The projectile is encased in a 0.8 mm-thick aluminum shell as the final DU round.


----------



## Acorn

3rd Horseman said:
			
		

> I cannot prove that other than 30mm A-10 DU rounds were used to the satisfaction of this forum if I am only allowed to use public NATO, right wing or Jane's among others info. Personal observation, first hand accounts and left leaning sites appear not to be a valid position to argue from.



Some of us regard any web-site with a political leaning - right or left - with skepticism. There are plenty of reputable sites (such as FAS - quoted above by Teddy). As for personal observations and first hand accounts, they are widely accepted here - once the storyteller has established credibility.


----------



## Brad Sallows

1) I can easily believe, given the density of material, that 3 tons of DU could have been fired off by A-10s.  Aside from local soil contamination (a slow process), the chief hazard of DU is presented when rounds strike armoured targets and a large quantity of particulate matter may be formed.  Now, using common sense, how many rounds should we expect to have "vapourized" and how many are simply buried in the dirt presenting essentially the same hazard as a brick of lead leaching into the soil?

2) Here's the Wikipedia listing of US weapons which employ DU:

The US Army uses the DU in an alloy with around 3.5% titanium. It is used by the US Army in 120 mm or 105 mm calibre by the M1 Abrams and M60A3 tanks and in 25 mm calibre by the M242 mounted on the M2 Bradley and the LAV-AT.

The US Navy used it in its 20 mm Phalanx CIWS guns (though it has now switched to tungsten for this application, as they are not required to pierce armour).

The Air Force uses the 30 mm PGU-14/B amour-piercing round in the GAU-8 Avenger cannon of the A-10 Thunderbolt II.

The Marine Corps uses DU in the 25 mm PGU-20 round fired by the GAU-12 Equalizer cannon of the AV-8B Harrier, and also in the 20 mm M197 gun mounted on AH-1 helicopter gunships.

Note the common characteristic: anti-armour weapons.  If the US has taken to using DU in bunker-busters, I welcome any links that offer proof, not speculation.


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## STONEY

Everyone may as well save their breath  3rd horseman will never change his mind never mind that just about every country that had troops deployed in the balkans carried out an investigation due to hysteria about DU & not ONE found any medical concerns. Maybe he was in Gagetown for a day and agent orange is effecting him.


----------



## TCBF

"Any of you black hats ever heard of it? Something about defeating T-72s or some such? "

-You don't necessarily need DU 25mm ammo to penetrate a T-72.  Normal Fin will as well.  DU will certainly give one an edge, though.  Wish we had it.

Tom


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## 3rd Horseman

Stoney,

    Read the whole thread.

    The Italians don't think like you.

     I don't believe the Cdn investigation into the DU in Yugo was conducted in the correct way, not that it was on purpose just that it was done incorrectly due to lack of information and knowledge. I'm here to get some info so I can satisfy myself of the issue. Most reputable organizations have acknowledged that exposure to DU at the tgt site during or shortly after the DU vapour was ignited is harmfull. Problem is of the CF soldiers tested non were at a tgt location during or after attack, to the best of my knowledge. And as for the studies during later rotos I can agree that 3 to 8 years after the DU attacks it provides little risk to the troops who are in the area. That is the result of those investigations. Im not attempting to get a pension they dont give them past 100% so that is not the reason so why would I be asking the question?


----------



## 48Highlander

I think all of us are asking the same question.  What's up?  You're telling me that out of the hundreds of soldiers who have been tested for excess DU contamination, and found to be in good shape, you're the one odd-man-out?  Alright, I'll grant that there's some small posibility that out of the entire 15 year UN/NATO operation, you may be the only one who was exposed to dangerous levels of DU.  So why discuss it on here?  Go get yourself checked out.  Heck, if ou're having problems getting looked at, go talk to Stopford, maybe he can put you in touch with the right people.  Nobody here's going to be able to do anthing for ya though, and he majority have no reason even to beleive you.


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## luther

This question is for the 3rd Horseman and others who might wish to weigh in...I am in communication with a very generous individual who has been enlightening me on his experiences in Visoko, Bosnia in '95 and his many illnesses that have been labelled as 'consequential' to his PTSD.  I did some research myself, on his behalf, and found that the UNEP investigated 6 sites around Sarajevo in an elevation area of over 2000m. Correct if I'm wrong here but isn't Visoko in a valley, 20 mi northeast of Sarajevo and would it stand to reason that air/dust would settle in the valley regions? What about the water tables? Also, I read elsewhere that servicemen and women who served in this particular area were not tested. I believe an institution, whether that be DND or VAC should be proactive and test all/ or inform all who served in these areas of concern. He, like you, is just trying to gather info and not being a trusting person (and rightfully so considering all the data/info showing that there is reason to believe a lot is hidden or distorted-just follow the news; it's not conspiracy theory) but a very intelligent person-he is checking all possible info available to him-then he'll make his own conclusions. 
I am not military myself but I do research on a computer owned by a generous, former serving member(not the same fella). In return, I read him comments from this site. He laughs a lot and sometimes he swears a lot. Anyhow, he really enjoys your site. Unfortunately, his eyesight isn't what it use to be and as he says, 'them damn computers are great but I ain't no ##@@@ Einstein, you get on there and let me know what's happening out there.' So I do and I've offered to send in his responses. He's concerned that I won't quote him verbatim and he'll end up sounding like a 'wussy' (I've watered down what he actually said.) As for me, I'm a research; I've never served in the capacity that any of you have served. Tks for your time.


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## q_1966

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=U93PBZIyqBs

im just wondering what yours guys take on the video is


----------



## GAP

'Poisoned' veteran begins hunger strike outside minister's office
By: The Canadian Press 11/4/2011
Article Link

LEVIS, Que. - Armed with little more than a sleeping bag and a few pillows, a former soldier who says he was poisoned while serving overseas has started a hunger strike outside the riding office of Canada's veterans affairs minister.

Pascal Lacoste blames his declining health, including chronic pain and a degenerative neurological disorder, on depleted-uranium poisoning he believes he contracted in Bosnia in the 1990s.

The 38-year-old Quebec City resident began fasting at noon Saturday and vowed not to eat again until Veterans Affairs Minister Steven Blaney recognizes that he and other soldiers were contaminated with depleted uranium.

That would allow Lacoste to be covered for the decontamination treatment he requires at a U.S. hospital, he said.

"I had a big breakfast this morning and now I won't eat or drink water, and I'm waiting for the minister's decision," he said in a phone interview. "I'm ready to fight for justice."

The Veterans Affairs department maintains it's unlikely any Canadian soldiers were contaminated with depleted uranium because few, if any, ever came into contact with it while in service.

In a statement, Blaney's spokesman Jean-Christophe de le Rue said that specialists are available to help Lacoste.
More on link

_- mod edit to bring headline in line with latest story developments -_


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## Cdnleaf

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival_skills

3-5 days without water, he will probably get formed under the Quebec MH Act before then; if he sticks it out.


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## Nemo888

Uranium is pretty easy to detect. It can be detected in blood, hair or urine. Why not throw a couple of tests at him and pick up the tab?


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## aesop081

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> Uranium is pretty easy to detect. It can be detected in blood, hair or urine. Why not throw a couple of tests at him and pick up the tab?



Reading the actual article is a good idea..... :



> His doctor said tests have shown he does have an unusually high level of uranium in his hair — but an independent radiation expert questions the reliability of the testing.


----------



## Nemo888

The test was positive. The "expert" can only argue about how much uranium he was dosed with. Considering you only absorb 0.5% of what passes through you it was probably significant. To say that uranium is not proven to cause health problems is a lie. 

Decreased performance on neurocognitive tests
Increased reports of cancers
Myocarditis
Chronic fatigue, rash, ear and eye infections, hair and weight loss, cough. May be due to combined chemical exposure rather than DU alone

Kind of a no brainer for me. He's a Vet. Send him for the chelation or get someone to do it locally. Too much trouble? Can I use that excuse next time I'm given a difficult order? I thought unlimited liability was a two way street.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Interesting - typically, ministers don't tend to meet with protesters.


> A former soldier who is staging a hunger strike to protest the way the federal government has handled his case is expected to meet today with Veterans Affairs Minister Steven Blaney.
> 
> Pascal Lacoste says he was poisoned while serving overseas and launched his hunger strike on Saturday outside Blaney's riding office in this community near Quebec City.
> 
> Lacoste blames his declining health, including chronic pain and a degenerative neurological disorder, on depleted-uranium poisoning he believes he contracted in Bosnia in the 1990s.
> 
> The 38-year-old Quebec City resident vowed not to eat again until Blaney recognizes that he and other soldiers were contaminated with depleted uranium ....


The Canadian Press, 6 Nov 11


----------



## The Bread Guy

The latest:


> A military vet who began a hunger strike on Saturday still hasn't had any food after rejecting an offer for treatment from Veterans Affairs Minister Steven Blaney.
> 
> Pascal Lacoste said Sunday he won't have another bite to eat until the federal government recognizes that he and countless other soldiers were poisoned while serving overseas.
> 
> And he says he is prepared to die if that's what it takes.
> 
> Lacoste blames his own declining health, which includes chronic pain and a degenerative neurological disorder, on depleted-uranium poisoning he believes he contracted in Bosnia in the 1990s.
> 
> He started his hunger strike on Saturday at noon at Blaney's riding office in this community across the St. Lawrence River from Quebec City.
> 
> Blaney met with Lacoste early Sunday and promised that medical specialists would provide him with the treatment he requires.
> 
> "The specialists contacted the veteran, Mr. Lacoste, to offer treatment to help respond to his personal and immediate needs," Blaney's spokesman Jean-Christophe de le Rue said in a statement.
> 
> "The minister implores the veteran not to endanger his health and to accept the treatments which have been offered to respond to his short- and medium-term needs."
> 
> After meeting with the specialists, however, Lacoste said he had decided to continue the hunger strike because he didn't only want treatment for himself.
> 
> He wants recognition that other soldiers have been poisoned with depleted uranium _ some of whom he says don't even know it ....


The Canadian Press, 7 Nov 11


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## gun runner

I wish him luck, he will need it. I also thought he was going to drink water with his meds/vitamin supplements as he stated in his earlier statements. I hope he gets all he wishes for! Ubique


----------



## Pieman

Was this the fellow who says he was poisoned by his own troops in Bosnia? Or is that another person?


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## mariomike

Pieman said:
			
		

> Was this the fellow who says he was poisoned by his own troops in Bosnia? Or is that another person?



http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/26348.0


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## DoyleG

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> The test was positive. The "expert" can only argue about how much uranium he was dosed with. Considering you only absorb 0.5% of what passes through you it was probably significant. To say that uranium is not proven to cause health problems is a lie.
> 
> Decreased performance on neurocognitive tests
> Increased reports of cancers
> Myocarditis
> Chronic fatigue, rash, ear and eye infections, hair and weight loss, cough. May be due to combined chemical exposure rather than DU alone
> 
> Kind of a no brainer for me. He's a Vet. Send him for the chelation or get someone to do it locally. Too much trouble? Can I use that excuse next time I'm given a difficult order? I thought unlimited liability was a two way street.



The "test" came from the soldiers own personal doctor. Despite the attempts to the contrary, moves to link DU with long-term symptoms in soldiers hasn't gone anywhere.

As for DU exposure in the Balkans, its been far more linked to Kosovo than Bosnia as the former saw much large use of DU. Even then its still sketchy.


----------



## The Bread Guy

One hopes this new committee will do more than just write a report that gathers dust somewhere - highlights mine.  





> *The federal government will create a new committee to study veterans' health in the wake of a hunger strike by an ex-soldier who insists he was contaminated by depleted uranium while serving in Bosnia.*
> 
> Veterans Affairs Minister Steven Blaney made the announcement in Levis, Que., after Pascal Lacoste ended his protest and allowed himself to be taken away in an ambulance Tuesday.
> 
> Lacoste, who battled to get Ottawa to recognize his uranium poisoning while serving overseas, flashed a two-fingered "victory" sign as he ended his hunger strike.
> 
> He swigged grape juice as he was loaded into an ambulance that took him to hospital for treatment. Over four days, Lacoste had been depriving himself of all food and liquids except for capfuls of water to help him take prescription medication.
> 
> Lacoste said he wasn't just fighting for himself; he had refused an offer of medical treatment until Ottawa agreed to help any other veteran in his situation.
> 
> *Further details of the board will be announced in the next 30 days, said Blaney. The minister said the body will comprise academics, medical researchers and soldiers.
> 
> "It's a committee that will have a broad mandate," Blaney said, adding that he wants to see Lacoste's health get better, along with the health of other veterans* ....


The Canadian Press, 8 Nov 11


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## prairefire

Many of have and will serve all over the world in many varied environments. This is a given and is one of the aspects of the unlimited liability of service. Those members, current and past, of the Canadian Forces are often present in regions where the civilizing norms that we hold so dearly within most of Canada are no longer functioning. There are a range of societal and environmental hazards that result in severe degradation of the quality of life for those that are living in the area of operations. The members of the Canadian Forces who deploy to these areas are frequently exposed to Environmental contamination. Typically in combat zones and failed states chemical and industrial wastes are no longer disposed of in accordance with standard protocols. Biological waste is not properly disposed from both agricultural activities or the sanitary disposal of the civilian and military casualties of conflict. Many of us have obsserved and been exposed to what could euphemistically called unpleasant odours and and the relentless wind carrying contaminated dust. All of us at one time or another have noticed that the permanent residents of these conflict areas frequently have higher rates of mortality, illness, cancer and a wide range of disease and sickness that is not normally seen within most of North America.

After one tour or several deployments to conflict regions around the world it should be expected that our service men and women after such exposure many develop nonspecific illnesses that are not easily defined. It would seem that when an array of symptoms are found in a veteran seeking treatment and assistance DVA wishes to have the individual prove a causative link to a specific diagnosis. This does not give the veteran a chance in hell of proving the link. There have been many epidemiological studies around the world since the end of WW2 and they all show a direct relation to conflict and health issues. Some like Agent Orange took a long time get a response. Others are still being assessed by DVA and may never be accepted. What we do know is that damage to our bodies can be by a singular traumatic event or by small accretions of damage that by themself are not injurious or easily defined but in totality may cause the body to not function correctly. 

I am frequently astounded by the approach that DVA takes to pensionable conditions and the lack of vision in their assessment of applicants. It is as if there is a large degree of wilful blindness to cause and effect backstopped by the bureaucratic norm that it is to say no, with no responsibility, than to say yes and take responsibility.


----------



## Gunner98

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> Uranium is pretty easy to detect. It can be detected in blood, hair or urine. Why not throw a couple of tests at him and pick up the tab?



It can also be detected in bone but it is kind of painful, it is normally done post-mortem.  We all have levels of 'natural' uraniums in our bodies, it is whether it is of toxic levels that matters.

A good article relating to a study of CF soldiers:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11908516 

A relevant symposium was held in 2002:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/health-sante/ps/oh-so/mcssp-sspcd/default-eng.asp

There is still voluntary, free DU testing policies in place for soldiers and veterans:
http://www.forces.gc.ca/health-sante/pub/fs-fd/fs-fd-du-ua-eng.asp
http://veterans.gc.ca/eng/department/facts-fait/depleted-uranium


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## PMedMoe

Looks like he ended the strike.

Ottawa agrees to study veterans' health after ex-soldier calls off hunger strike

The federal government will create a new committee to study veterans' health in the wake of a hunger strike by an ex-soldier who insists he was contaminated by depleted uranium while serving in Bosnia.

Veterans Affairs Minister Steven Blaney made the announcement in Levis, Que., after Pascal Lacoste ended his protest and allowed himself to be taken away in an ambulance Tuesday.

Lacoste, who battled to get Ottawa to recognize his uranium poisoning while serving overseas, flashed a two-fingered "victory" sign as he ended his hunger strike.

He swigged grape juice as he was loaded into an ambulance that took him to hospital for treatment. Over four days, Lacoste had been depriving himself of all food and liquids except for capfuls of water to help him take prescription medication.

Lacoste said he wasn't just fighting for himself; he had refused an offer of medical treatment until Ottawa agreed to help any other veteran in his situation.

Further details of the board will be announced in the next 30 days, said Blaney. The minister said the body will comprise academics, medical researchers and soldiers.

"It's a committee that will have a broad mandate," Blaney said, adding that he wants to see Lacoste's health get better, along with the health of other veterans.

More at link


----------



## Rifleman62

Refer to committees rather than make a timely decision.


----------



## gun runner

Suprised...? I am not. This will be stuck up in red tape for the forseeable future now.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Refer to committees rather than make a timely decision.





			
				gun runner said:
			
		

> Suprised...? I am not. This will be stuck up in red tape for the forseeable future now.


You're not the only doubting Thomas' out there....


> Veterans' advocates are skeptical of a federal government promise to study the effects of exposure to depleted uranium after years of ignoring their pleas to recognize the issue.
> 
> Louise Richard, a long-time critic who says she suffers from Gulf War illness, says Veterans Affairs has persistently refused to acknowledge the health hazards and doesn't even track suspected exposures.
> 
> An ex-soldier, Pascal Lacoste, ended a hunger strike Tuesday in Levis, Que., after the veterans minister and local MP, Steven Blaney, pledged to launch a review in the next 30 days.
> 
> The minister said academics, medical researchers and soldiers will make up the panel.
> 
> Richard, who has researched uranium exposure, wants to be on the committee and says she finds it criminal that a veteran had to resort to a hunger strike to get attention ....


The Canadian Press, 9 Nov 11

No details yet on the VAC news release page.  We'll just have to stay tuned to see if this was something to just get rid of a vet hunger striker before Remembrance Day.

Mod note:  Also changing the title of the thread so we can also track whatever happens with this committee here.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Bump with the Scientific Advisory Committee on Veterans’ Health's findings - the nut graph highlighted in yellow from the news release....


> .... The Scientific Advisory Committee on Veterans’ Health is an independent committee that comprises five experts with collective expertise in scientific, medical and military matters. Two of the members are Veterans, including the Committee Chairman, Major-General (ret’d) Pierre Morisset, MD.
> 
> *"We are not suggesting that these concerned Veterans do not have health problems," said Dr. Morisset. "However, we firmly believe that whatever health problems they do have are unlikely related to depleted uranium."*
> 
> "It is imperative that our approach to Veterans’ concerns be based on science to ensure our Veterans are receiving the best and most appropriate support and treatment," said Minister Blaney. "The work of these experts will add another layer of assurance that the Government of Canada is using the most up-to-date research and analysis in considering Veterans’ health issues." ....



From a summary of the report (report also available here if previous link doesn't work):


> .... Having completed its thorough reviews, consultations and deliberations, the Committee arrived at the following conclusions:
> 
> Depleted uranium (DU) is potentially harmful to human health by virtue of its chemical and radiological effects.
> Within a military setting, the highest risk of exposure to depleted uranium is in those who were: in, on or near vehicles hit with friendly fire; entering or near these burning vehicles; near fires involving DU munitions; salvaging damaged vehicles; or involved in clean up operations of contaminated sites.
> It is unlikely that Canadian soldiers have been exposed to levels of depleted uranium which could be harmful to their health.
> There is no consistent evidence from military cohort studies of adverse health effects that could be attributed to depleted uranium.
> There is no strong evidence of adverse health effects reported in larger civilian studies with longer follow-up periods of populations with increased exposure to uranium (e.g. uranium production and fabrication workers).
> Our finding that exposure to uranium is not associated with a large or frequent health effect is in agreement with the conclusions of other expert bodies.
> There are many Veterans suffering from persistent symptoms following deployment or military conflict which, although not linked to specific exposures such as DU, can cause considerable suffering and can be effectively treated.
> ....


----------



## The Bread Guy

A couple of updates....

1)  What the vets' 'budman has to say - highlights mine....


> .... My first impression is that the review has been conducted thoroughly and objectively. As some of you may know, the Committee has concluded that it is unlikely that Canadian Forces members have been exposed to levels of depleted uranium that could be harmful to their health. However, the committee has also acknowledged that “there are many Veterans suffering from persistent symptoms following deployment or military conflict which, although not linked to specific exposures such as DU, can cause considerable suffering.”
> 
> Annex F of the report, Chronic Symptom-based Illnesses Following Wars, starts with the sentence: “A condition frequently reported after military conflicts is characterized by persistent symptoms for which physical examination and laboratory testing is often unrevealing.” The acknowledgement that some Veterans are suffering from symptoms that science cannot currently explain is important.
> 
> *What must not be forgotten here is that many CF members go on mission healthy but return from duty ill for unknown reasons. That is a fact that must be acknowledged by Veterans Affairs Canada. The needs of these suffering Veterans must be addressed even if science cannot explain the cause of their symptoms.*



2)  According to this notice, the Chairman of the Scientific Advisory Committee on Veterans’ Health - Dr. Pierre Morisset - is speaking to these folks tomorrow (14 Feb 13) about the report.


----------



## The Bread Guy

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Bump with the Scientific Advisory Committee on Veterans’ Health's findings - the nut graph highlighted in yellow from the news release....
> From a summary of the report (report also available here if previous link doesn't work) ....


Some follow-up, this from a report (50 page PDF) issued by the House of Commons Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs, commenting, in part, on the findings of the earlier report from the Scientific Advisory Commitee (SACVH):


> ".... Barring any future research findings to the contrary, *the study by the SACVH seems to demonstrate clearly that exposure to depleted uranium is not a plausible explanation for the presence of the symptoms being experienced by numerous veterans*.  This statement applies to all illnesses for which efforts to demonstrate a possible causal link with exposure to DU have been unsuccessful, and it is particularly true of chronic multisymptom illness (CMI).  Unfortunately, this means that veterans who might have suspected that their health problems were related to DU ...."


----------

