# General Election: Oct 21, 2019



## Haggis (11 Sep 2019)

I saw some election campaign signs earlier this morning on my drive to work in west Québec.


----------



## FSTO (11 Sep 2019)

McKenna signs here in Ottawa Centre have been popping up for over a week now.


----------



## PuckChaser (11 Sep 2019)

FSTO said:
			
		

> McKenna signs here in Ottawa Centre have been popping up for over a week now.



Are they allowed to do that before the writ is dropped?


----------



## Haggis (11 Sep 2019)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Are they allowed to do that before the writ is dropped?


 Subject to local by-laws, but yes.


----------



## Rifleman62 (11 Sep 2019)

> Ottawa blocks RCMP on SNC-Lavalin inquiry – The Globe and Mail #SNCLavalin #cdnpoli #elex43 https://t.co/ND65by97Nb
> — Robert Fife (@RobertFife) September 11, 2019



"Ottawa blocks" ???? Or do you mean Trudeau. If it was the CPC it would surely say "Sheer blocks".


----------



## Remius (11 Sep 2019)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Are they allowed to do that before the writ is dropped?



Yes but the rules for the pre writ period are a bit different.  Elections Canada has a section on it on their site.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (11 Sep 2019)

From LawFare an American perspective on PM Justin Trudeau and the October Election.



> Canada’s Foreign Policy Election
> By Preston Lim
> 
> Tuesday, September 10, 2019, 12:26 PM
> ...



Article Link (Contains links to other webpages)


----------



## Cloud Cover (11 Sep 2019)

Driving past London drugs on Highway 97 in Vernon, noticed a few enterprising homeless chaps fastening a new ditch shelter made from Mel Arnold’s election signs. Sad.


----------



## The Bread Guy (11 Sep 2019)

I'm shocked ... 

_*"Canadians Are Having An Unofficial Naming Contest For Trudeau's Campaign Plane & It's Getting Nasty"*_


----------



## Journeyman (11 Sep 2019)

I can't recall an election more suitably summed by this headline:

*Election 2019 starts with voters uninspired by choices, so campaign will matter*       LINK

For just that reason, I suspect that this may be my only post in this thread.  I'll just have to see how it plays out, while leaving the 'discussion' to the echo chamber diatribes and passive-aggressive responses of those who have it all figured out.


----------



## The Bread Guy (11 Sep 2019)

Some foreign media takes off the top ...

_*"Canada: Justin Trudeau kicks off tough election campaign"*_ (Deutsche Welle)
_*" Canada election: Justin Trudeau faces battle to get re-elected "*_ (Associated Press, via NZ Herald)
_*" Trudeau launches Canada's election cycle under a cloud of scandal"*_ (politico.com, written by a former Canadian Press reporter)


----------



## Remius (12 Sep 2019)

macleans debate tonight.

Will be interesting to see the dynamic without JT there.


----------



## Journeyman (12 Sep 2019)

I got an unrequested campaign sign left on porch while I was out today.  Such littering shows not much concern about the environment.   :not-again:


----------



## OldSolduer (12 Sep 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> macleans debate tonight.
> 
> Will be interesting to see the dynamic without JT there.


Debates have value but only to the candidates that the moderator likes.


----------



## ModlrMike (12 Sep 2019)

You can bet much hay will be made about JT's absence. Whether it means anything remains to be seen. That being said, the Torries have to keep hammering the SNC issue.


----------



## Remius (12 Sep 2019)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> You can bet much hay will be made about JT's absence. Whether it means anything remains to be seen. That being said, the Torries have to keep hammering the SNC issue.



Apparently they will still have a podium for Trudeau.  That will have an impact.


----------



## Remius (12 Sep 2019)

Interesting debate so far.  Singh is doing quite well.


----------



## brihard (13 Sep 2019)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> You can bet much hay will be made about JT's absence. Whether it means anything remains to be seen. That being said, the Torries have to keep hammering the SNC issue.



The Tories need to come out with a solid platform and some positive messaging. Anyone whose vote was going to swing with scandal made up their mind months ago. Tactically, Scheer showed political immaturity in going off half-cocked in the early spring with shrill demands for resignation. He left himself nowhere further to take it. Show some actual leadership, and give Canada a sense of vision in the form of policies, legislative approaches, and viable, practical, and legal solutions to problems beyond “we want to be in power but aren’t”.

(Edit for typo)


----------



## Remius (13 Sep 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> The stories need to come out with a solid platform and some positive messaging. Anyone whose vote was going to swing with scandal made up their mind months ago. Tactically, Scheer showed political immaturity in going off half-cocked in the early spring with shrill demands for resignation. He left himself nowhere further to take it. Show some actual leadership, and give Canada a sense of vision in the form of policies, legislative approaches, and viable, practical, and legal solutions to problems beyond “we want to be in power but aren’t”.



Well said.

And a lot of people are saying that.  Although Scheer performed ok last night he kept avoiding questions and tried to give canned messages about Trudeau regardless of what was being asked.  I get it, his tactic was to focus on JT but his party’s actual plan was lost in that noise. After last night I know a lot more about the green’s and NDP’s plans than I do the CPC’s.


----------



## The Bread Guy (13 Sep 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> The stories need to come out with a solid platform and some positive messaging ... Show some actual leadership, and give Canada a sense of vision in the form of policies, legislative approaches, and viable, practical, and legal solutions to problems beyond “we want to be in power but aren’t”.


Agreed - but in today's environment of social media weaponization, I _suspect_ memes & other shrill demi-truths may sway more people than discussion of issues.  I read platform documents, but I'm guessing not many other people do.

And as for the stories coming out, if you mean the literal definition via MSM, all the candidates can control is what they say, not what's written/said.


----------



## brihard (13 Sep 2019)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Agreed - but in today's environment of social media weaponization, I _suspect_ memes & other shrill demi-truths may sway more people than discussion of issues.  I read platform documents, but I'm guessing not many other people do.
> 
> And as for the stories coming out, if you mean the literal definition via MSM, all the candidates can control is what they say, not what's written/said.



It would be interesting to see research on voter susceptibility to different forms of messaging like this. I suspect that while things like memes and such produce a great deal of noise, most of it is probably expended within echo chambers and mostly just nods along with opinions already held. I have a great deal of people with different views on my Facebook, and I see both sides of this pretty loudly at times. My consistent observation has been that most of the shares and likes are by people whose political opinions have come across as quite crystallized for a long time already. I struggle to think of anyone where I've seen observable shift in political views that have manifested themselves that way. I suspect that among individuals whose votes are up for grabs, social media white noise is probably not a major factor.

Now, I'm not saying that memes and other online angstiness has zero impact. I expect it has some. But I'm leery of overselling the impact that echo-chamber clickbait has on the swayable votes.

Where I *do* think it may have an impact is in taking existent, firm views, and pushing them to be more crystallized and potentially extreme. I've seen few people change their views on social media. I've seen a whole lot from various political factions who've goten angrier, dumber, and more impermeable to other points of views, because increasingly their feeds get filled only with what they want to hear, and increasingly they are surrounded by people who will all mutually reinforce that anyone with 'other' views is (insert perjorative here).


----------



## The Bread Guy (13 Sep 2019)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> I'm shocked ...
> 
> _*"Canadians Are Having An Unofficial Naming Contest For Trudeau's Campaign Plane & It's Getting Nasty"*_


And on the other side …
_*"Andrew Scheer Just Shared A Video Of His New Private Jet & Canadians Aren't Impressed"*_


----------



## Brad Sallows (13 Sep 2019)

>Although Scheer performed ok last night he kept avoiding questions and tried to give canned messages about Trudeau regardless of what was being asked.

I suppose the CPC has "data" that tell the party it is an effective strategy.  This would be in spite of the conventional political wisdom that opposition parties must do more than hope to coast to victory on the voters' dislike of the incumbents.  This time it will be different, you see.  I thought they'd clue in after seeing how quickly the Ethics Commissioner's report disappeared from the news 
cycle.  That, coupled with the following weeks of polling results, suggests that many minds are already made up with respect to how far perceptions of scandal are going to move the dial.


----------



## daftandbarmy (13 Sep 2019)

Sheer's greatest asset?

He doesn't look and act like that robot, Harper


----------



## Remius (13 Sep 2019)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >Although Scheer performed ok last night he kept avoiding questions and tried to give canned messages about Trudeau regardless of what was being asked.
> 
> I suppose the CPC has "data" that tell the party it is an effective strategy.  This would be in spite of the conventional political wisdom that opposition parties must do more than hope to coast to victory on the voters' dislike of the incumbents.  This time it will be different, you see.  I thought they'd clue in after seeing how quickly the Ethics Commissioner's report disappeared from the news
> cycle.  That, coupled with the following weeks of polling results, suggests that many minds are already made up with respect to how far perceptions of scandal are going to move the dial.



One would hope that they would stick to telling Canadians what they have to offer.  But hope is the first step towards disapointment. 

I suspect they will do what they did last time and keep hammering blindly hoping it will have an effect.


----------



## Remius (13 Sep 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> It would be interesting to see research on voter susceptibility to different forms of messaging like this.
> 
> Now, I'm not saying that memes and other online angstiness has zero impact. I expect it has some. But I'm leery of overselling the impact that echo-chamber clickbait has on the swayable votes.



Brihard, there are studies on that very topic.  This article discusses certain factors that make people believe or not believe memes based on likes and who exactly likes them.

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-11-ill-meme.html

But when we live in a world where people believe that all news is fake news because someone they agree with says it umpteen times I doubt that experts who study this stuff will be believed.


----------



## ModlrMike (13 Sep 2019)

Trudeau's performance last night will probably go down in history as his best outing.


Note to Ms May - when you invoke the modern equivalent of Godwin, you lose all credibility.


----------



## mariomike (13 Sep 2019)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Note to Ms May - when you invoke the modern equivalent of Godwin, you lose all credibility.



I don't know what she said, but Mr. Godwin had this to say about Godwin's Law,



> By all means, compare these shitheads to Nazis. Again and again. I'm with you.
> https://web.archive.org/web/20170814002835/https://twitter.com/sfmnemonic/status/web/20170814002835/https:/twitter.com/sfmnemonic/status/896884949634232320





> If you're thoughtful about it and show some real awareness of history, go ahead and refer to Hitler when you talk about Trump, or any other politician.
> https://web.archive.org/web/20170209163428/https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/12/14/sure-call-trump-a-nazi-just-make-sure-you-know-what-youre-talking-about/?utm_term=.2b78480fe90e





			
				Remius said:
			
		

> But when we live in a world where people believe that all news is fake news because someone they agree with says it umpteen times I doubt that experts who study this stuff will be believed.



Negative news = fake news?

Perhaps some may find the "How to Spot Fake News" attachment helpful,


----------



## Brad Sallows (13 Sep 2019)

>But I'm leery of overselling the impact that echo-chamber clickbait has on the swayable votes.

I doubt the impact is meaningful.  Echo-chamber propaganda rarely escapes the echo chamber, where the audience is already committed.  Given findings that deeply politically engaged people overestimate the engagement of the rest of the population, I suppose the undecided fraction is much more likely to be swayed by whatever makes the first 15 minutes of the evening news or front pages of the major dailies.

"Fake" news from obviously fringe sources is a much lesser problem than "fake" news from mainstream sources, because in the latter case credibility is more readily assumed.


----------



## MilEME09 (14 Sep 2019)

Personally this election cycle I am not being drawn by the under whelming performance of any of the major parties. As a result I have been drawn to and likely will vote Veterans Coalition Party come October. For being a new party they have managed candidates in almost every riding. While I doubt they will win a seat, best case they get one, they have a solid platform that could appeal to many voters if they got the message out such as making CPP Tax free, or rebuilding the New veterans Charter.

https://veteranscoalitionpartyofcanada.ca/


----------



## Journeyman (14 Sep 2019)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> https://veteranscoalitionpartyofcanada.ca/


Hmm, learn something new every day.  I had to Google, since I'd never heard of them;  my riding doesn't have a candidate (of course, so far we have only Libs, Con, and PPC -- no NDP or Greens).

Being so fringe, I suspect any votes would have an effect similar to a spoiled ballot.  :dunno:


----------



## MilEME09 (14 Sep 2019)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Hmm, learn something new every day.  I had to Google, since I'd never heard of them;  my riding doesn't have a candidate (of course, so far we have only Libs, Con, and PPC -- no NDP or Greens).
> 
> Being so fringe, I suspect any votes would have an effect similar to a spoiled ballot.  :dunno:



While I would say true in this case, apparently elections Canada hasn't verified their candidates yet, and they have until Sept30th to file all required documents. While it might be a spoiled ballot, it can eventually translate to seats given an election or two. Enough people vote though and the popular vote shows they the have traction can make the difference later down the road.


----------



## AbdullahD (14 Sep 2019)

Got to love Trudeau

The risk of stealing equity in your home...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-cannabis-loss-1.5282994

Then taxxing your gains up to 5 years instead of just needing to stay in a place for one year...

Justin Trudeau’s secret plan to tax homeowners - Canada's Official Opposition
https://www.conservative.ca/justin-trudeaus-secret-plan-to-tax-homeowners/

I have a few buddies who flip houses and this will wipe them out. How are these not huge deals? Potentially wiping out tens of thousands of dollars from your pocketbook, but no one cares?

Sorry I am pissed, because it directly affects me and my planning for my circumnavigation. 

Guess my only realistic voting option is the right.
Abdullah


----------



## Cloud Cover (14 Sep 2019)

Not a fan of JT but that Conservative ad is misleading, even disinformation. The proposal from the Liberals is for a 1% tax applied to buyers who are both non resident and non Canadian. In particular, it is an attempt to discourage purchasing of real estate in Canada through means of unexplained wealth. Buying a fixer upper, polishing it up, then selling it as a principal residence is not going to trigger that tax. That activity is exactly what we need more of, and not this continuous real estate pornography show of opulent, wasteful homes that are rarely/ barely occupied.


----------



## AbdullahD (14 Sep 2019)

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> Not a fan of JT but that Conservative ad is misleading, even disinformation. The proposal from the Liberals is for a 1% tax applied to buyers who are both non resident and non Canadian. In particular, it is an attempt to discourage purchasing of real estate in Canada through means of unexplained wealth. Buying a fixer upper, polishing it up, then selling it as a principal residence is not going to trigger that tax. That activity is exactly what we need more of, and not this continuous real estate pornography show of opulent, wasteful homes that are rarely/ barely occupied.



I will have to go looking for another more legitimate source.. but this one is what I based my thoughts off of.

Maybe I misread or am being misled.

I thought you might be interested in this blog post authored by Garth Turner: The house tax. You can view it at this link: https://www.greaterfool.ca/2019/09/13/the-house-tax-2/

Abdullah


----------



## SeaKingTacco (14 Sep 2019)

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> Not a fan of JT but that Conservative ad is misleading, even disinformation. The proposal from the Liberals is for a 1% tax applied to buyers who are both non resident and non Canadian. In particular, it is an attempt to discourage purchasing of real estate in Canada through means of unexplained wealth. Buying a fixer upper, polishing it up, then selling it as a principal residence is not going to trigger that tax. That activity is exactly what we need more of, and not this continuous real estate pornography show of opulent, wasteful homes that are rarely/ barely occupied.



Apparently this is different and is not the 1% annual tax on foreign ownership of houses. This was allegedly proposed by Adam Vaughn and would apply to every homeowner in Canada. I have not seen the Liberals formally announce it, but I could sure see it being snuck into the next omnibus budget bill, if they get re-elected.

Could you imagine the effect it would have on the CAF alone, at posting season in 2020? Who could afford to move and sell a house, taking a captial gains beating every few years?


----------



## The Bread Guy (14 Sep 2019)

This all seems to be based on the attached document (fragment?) shared via various Conservative sources.  Didn't seem to make it into the platform document (which I know some will say is not worth the paper/electrons it's printed on) - also attached.  Also for the record, I've attached what buddy whose name is on the first document had to say.

All that said ...


			
				SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> ... I could sure see it being snuck into the next omnibus budget bill, if they get re-elected ...


 :nod: #CaveatVoter


----------



## Remius (14 Sep 2019)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Apparently this is different and is not the 1% annual tax on foreign ownership of houses. This was allegedly proposed by Adam Vaughn and would apply to every homeowner in Canada. I have not seen the Liberals formally announce it, but I could sure see it being snuck into the next omnibus budget bill, if they get re-elected.
> 
> Could you imagine the effect it would have on the CAF alone, at posting season in 2020? Who could afford to move and sell a house, taking a captial gains beating every few years?



It looks like it might be a misrepresentation.

https://ipolitics.ca/2019/09/13/tory-allegation-of-secret-trudeau-tax-plan-a-blatant-misrepresentation-liberal-incumbent-says/

So far I’ve only seen the 1% foreign buyers tax (a good thing as far as I can tell)

And the first time homebuyers shared equity plan.  Depending on where you stand it could be a good thing if you want a house but are ok sharing 10% of the value with the government.


----------



## Remius (14 Sep 2019)

So the debate does not seem to have negatively impacted the LPC.  I wasn’t sure how it would affect them given their absence. 

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/

I guess we’ll see what next week brings.


----------



## MilEME09 (14 Sep 2019)

https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/mobile/video?clipId=1779649&binId=1.1145463&playlistPageNum=1#_gus&_gucid=&_gup=Facebook&_gsc=IgUUCEB


VCP leader gets some spotlight


----------



## a_majoor (14 Sep 2019)

Interesting that so far there has been no mention of the PPC. While they don't have much in the way of resources and had limited time to get organized, I found it very interesting to see how quickly they had fielded almost the full 338 slate (even before the Liberals). Even with a virtual media blackout they still seem to be able to draw on a very broad base, and I suspect it may be deeper than some people imagine (Maxime Bernier came to London last week with limited notice and drew a crowd of about 500 supporters).

To me this suggests the PPC may well have a spoiler role in the election as a minimum, drawing a lot more votes than people are expecting. Talking to some PPC supporters, they also believe that there is a large pool of disgruntled and undecided voters out there who have not been on anyone's radar to date. I can certainly believe there are a lot of voters who are disgruntled by what is on offer by the traditional parties. How willing they are to try out the PPC is a different story.

I personally will be very interested to see how well they do.


----------



## brihard (15 Sep 2019)

I'll be interested to see how they fare too, inasmuch as I'm interested and concerned to see the rise of any populist movement within a democracy. Canada thus far has done reasonably well at resisting the incursion of populism and nationalism into our electoral politics. The PPC have offered themselves up as the pressure release valve for that. It will be interesting to see how many voters take them up on the opportunity.

I'm quite confident (and very hopeful) that they will top out as 'also-rans'. I hope Bernier will not be reelected- it would be a shame to see his tantrum rewarded. Polling data is dubious; that said his riding right now is sitting with a slight CPC edge on Bernier, though it's flipped back and forth within the margin of error. It's a toss up right now. They don't have a snowball's hope in hell of any other seat.

Worst case for Canada as it regards the PPC is they get enough traction that they split enough votes in enough ridings to matters. Pretty much any gain to them will be at CPC expense. Politically and ideologically there's basically nowhere else for them to draw support from; they're trying to shave off the far right of the CPC, and maybe pull in other populists who otherwise wouldn't vote. While the PPC won't take any ridings beyond potentially Beauce, they conceivably could throw enough seats Liberal to give them another majority.

I'm beginning to get concerned. We've all heard at great length about how much the Liberals suck. Got it. Message has sunk in if and where it's going to. It doens't look to be doing the trick though. The friggin' conservatives need to quit dicking around and get out there with some solid 'why you should vote for us'. While 36 days is a long time in an election and a lot can happen, thus far they just haven't really shown up to play- and I'm not talking about the silly theatrics and snarkiness of the televised debates, but actually articulating and pushing real solid positive platform items.


----------



## Haggis (15 Sep 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I'm beginning to get concerned. We've all heard at great length about how much the Liberals suck. Got it. Message has sunk in if and where it's going to. It doesn't look to be doing the trick though.



And the polls seem to agree with you.  As of yesterdays's 338Canada projections Team Trudeau is solidly in majority territory. 



			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> The friggin' conservatives need to quit dicking around and get out there with some solid 'why you should vote for us'. While 36 days is a long time in an election and a lot can happen, thus far they just haven't really shown up to play- and I'm not talking about the silly theatrics and snarkiness of the televised debates, but actually articulating and pushing real solid positive platform items.



The Conservatives are on the defensive on a number of fronts and the Liberals have seized the initiative from Scheer. It may be too late already.


----------



## Jonezy76 (15 Sep 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I'll be interested to see how they fare too, inasmuch as I'm interested and concerned to see the rise of any populist movement within a democracy. Canada thus far has done reasonably well at resisting the incursion of populism and nationalism into our electoral politics. The PPC have offered themselves up as the pressure release valve for that. It will be interesting to see how many voters take them up on the opportunity.
> 
> I'm quite confident (and very hopeful) that they will top out as 'also-rans'. I hope Bernier will not be reelected- it would be a shame to see his tantrum rewarded. Polling data is dubious; that said his riding right now is sitting with a slight CPC edge on Bernier, though it's flipped back and forth within the margin of error. It's a toss up right now. They don't have a snowball's hope in hell of any other seat.
> 
> ...



I'm also worried that the PPC will bleed off CPC votes. The ONLY chance to unseat Trudeau and the Libs is the Cons.. A vote for Max = a vote for Justin.


----------



## Brad Sallows (15 Sep 2019)

Taken as a whole, the PPC and it's stated principles and aims isn't particularly populist, although that depends extremely heavily on interpretation of "populist", which these days seems to be "anything further right than just right of centre".  The best course of action to stop a stampede of people who might like a populist party (they see something they like elsewhere described as "populist", so they vote for whatever they see in Canada described as "populist") is to stop lazily and incorrectly summing up the PPC as populist.  And the CPC should do to the PPC what the LPC did to the NDP last election - yank the rug CPC-ways and occupy it, firmly.  The PPC positions are mostly conservative / libertarian; that should be easy to do.

LPC supporters have made their rationalizations to pave over the ethical cracks.  Changeable voters not entirely happy with the status quo need an attraction.  The NDP and CPC leaders are weak and ineffectual, so that attraction seems unlikely to be strong enough.

The danger here is not the populists or any other fringe factions, or even the "elites".  The danger is the potential giant "F-U" by one set of Canadians to the rest of Canadians if the LPC is re-elected with a majority in spite of the manifest scandal.  That is the path to populism.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (15 Sep 2019)

I was looking at something on Youtube this morning and an interesting and catchy ad came up.  As I hadn't done any searches (recently  ) dealing with the primary subject matter, my assumption is that the site's logarithm is assuming that my interest is either Canada or politics (or more specifically Canadian politics) since the current PM is featured prominently in the ad.

https://twitter.com/reefertilizer/status/1052711347299840000?lang=en

I wonder if Elections Canada will consider this a political ad and make it subject to the requirements for "issue advertising".  Until I started to actually listen to the lyrics, I thought it was a campaign ad.


----------



## ballz (15 Sep 2019)

I had high hopes that Bernier would start a legitimate, libertarian political movement that emphasized personal responsibility, smaller federal government, etc. He did have good people behind him, well-connected, and with good political experience which is why they were so successful in getting the ground game established, starting EDAs and getting candidates. However, all those people have since abandoned him since he basically just went off the rails with some pretty stupid dog-whistling and I'm no different than those people. I liked Max when he was genuinely interested in libertarian principles over vote-buying, now it appears he's interested in votes and the only people left to get votes from are the fringes who weren't voting before. I suspect he hasn't taken too many CPC supporters from the CPC who haven't subsequently switched back to CPC.

The old Max could have been a force to reckon with, the current Max reminds me of a poker player that's gone full tilt mode until they're out of chips.


----------



## The Bread Guy (16 Sep 2019)

Aaaaaaaaaand for a slighty different view, here's the World Socialist Web Site's take on it all ...


> ... the Tories and the media, led by the Globe and Mail, the traditional voice of the Bay Street financial elite, are cynically and hypocritically seeking to use the SNC-Lavalin affair to shift politics still further right. Particularly sinister is their insistence that the RCMP must be empowered to investigate the SNC-Lavalin affair, and the actions of Trudeau and the Prime Minister’s Office in particular, in the midst of the election campaign. This would effectively give Canada’s national police—a force notorious for its right-wing sympathies and repeated violations of Canadians’ democratic rights—a powerful say in the election’s outcome.
> 
> (...)
> 
> ...


----------



## SeaKingTacco (16 Sep 2019)

Ah, World Socialists.

You can always count on their brand of crazy to brighten the day....


----------



## Fishbone Jones (16 Sep 2019)

There seems to be a lot of speculation about Commissioner Lucki being married to Morneau's cousin. Has anyone seen anything solid about this?


----------



## The Bread Guy (16 Sep 2019)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Ah, World Socialists.
> 
> You can always count on their brand of crazy to brighten the day....


 :nod:
#NDPNotQuiteSocialistEnough


			
				Fishbone Jones said:
			
		

> There seems to be a lot of speculation about Commissioner Lucki being married to Morneau's cousin. Has anyone seen anything solid about this?


One Twitter post (attached) with no link included, being retweeted by non-fans of the RCMP & Team Red … #ALotOfPeopleAreSaying


----------



## Remius (16 Sep 2019)

The man she is married to is a retired RCMP staff sgt. 

Is he a blood relation to Morneau?  Other than what some guy posted on twitter  :dunno:

Are a spouse's cousins considered to be a potential conflict?  2nd cousins?  3rd? 4th? 

I have a massive extended family with 2nd and 3rd cousins I don't even know.  I don't even know a good chunk of my spouses 1st cousins let alone the next ones removed.


----------



## ModlrMike (16 Sep 2019)

The connection is tenuous at best. That being said, it's more about the narrative. As long as the "LPC in bed with SNC" story can be exploited, the more it will be.


----------



## The Bread Guy (16 Sep 2019)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> The connection is tenuous at best. That being said, *it's more about the narrative. As long as the "LPC in bed with SNC" story can be exploited, the more it will be*.


VERY true - but in spite of what some people say, details also matter.  You can make that link pretty clearly & easily without making stuff up.


----------



## Remius (16 Sep 2019)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Maybe, maybe not. Say what you want about Bernier, he can think on his feet, is (apparently) imumune to embarrassment and is the master of the quip. The pay off for Bernier (in terms of his base) is attacking Trudeau. He could end up making the PM look stupid, depending on the issue.
> 
> Now, I suppose, that could also hurt the CPC, if he does well enough that enough people decide to give him a second look. Or he could just make Scheer look reasonable and safe. Time will tell.



Fair points.  But I think that Bernier is banking on the conservative votes.  I don’t think he is really competing for the LPC or NDP vote share.  That means that Scheer will have to show he is the better choice for conservatives as opposed to the only choice.  Means less time on Trudeau at the debates and you can bet Bernier will be after Scheer on a variety of conservative issues.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (16 Sep 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Fair points.  But I think that Bernier is banking on the conservative votes.  I don’t think he is really competing for the LPC or NDP vote share.  That means that Scheer will have to show he is the better choice for conservatives as opposed to the only choice.  Means less time on Trudeau at the debates and you can bet Bernier will be after Scheer on a variety of conservative issues.



You and I mostly agree. Any votes Bernier gets come out of the CPC hide or out of folks who would not ever vote Liberal or NDP. Maybe some Blocqusties or even Greens (the Greens are a weird bunch and are all over the poltical map).

The roadmap for Bernier to make a splash and get fireworks is to go after Trudeau and not Scheer. Those will be the clips that get played on the news- not him and Scheer arguing about Dairy marketing boards.


----------



## AbdullahD (16 Sep 2019)

So bernier plays far right allowing scheer to play mid right taking votes from the libs and a conservative minority government is hatched...

Yeah i know, it wont happen. I can dream though.

Abdullah


----------



## Jarnhamar (16 Sep 2019)

Bernier never stuck me as serious. 

Maybe he's on to something with his platform, though I've heard he has a habit of blowing stuff off. 

Also heard even if he wins every seat or whatever he can, he won't have enough to form a government. "At best" he'll give us another 4 years of the _honourable_ Prime Minister Trudeau playing dress up.


----------



## ModlrMike (16 Sep 2019)

Bernier was invited to the debate solely for his fireworks value. The press isn't interested in anything else. They want sound bites that play. The only way he gets airtime after the debate is to go after Trudeau.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (16 Sep 2019)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Bernier was invited to the debate solely for his fireworks value. The press isn't interested in anything else. They want sound bites that play. The only way he gets airtime after the debate is to go after Trudeau.



Suggesting that Bernier was invited for entertainment value may have been valid if the upcoming debate was, as in years (elections) past, sponsored and organized by the "Consortium" (the major TV media outlets combined).  However, this debate is organized by the Leaders’ Debates Commission which is a government body.  While the Commission, as a government body, may be open to criticism for bias, I have much respect for the Commissioner and would expect him to abide by the mandate and guidelines that he has been given.  The Commissioner, by the way, is David Johnston, the former Governor-General.


----------



## ModlrMike (16 Sep 2019)

Apologies then. I thought this was another of the media led debates.


----------



## brihard (16 Sep 2019)

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> So bernier plays far right allowing scheer to play mid right taking votes from the libs and a conservative minority government is hatched...
> 
> Yeah i know, it wont happen. I can dream though.
> 
> Abdullah



Thing with that though is that Bernier *may* sap (in the original siege-engineering sense of the word) strength from the CPC, but that will serve not to bolster the LPC. It may redistribute votes; it will not redistribute seats in any way advantageous to the right. In the event of a CPC minority it offers no additional seats right of the liberals to prior then up- not that I personally think that’s terrible; I’ve made no secret of my opinion of Bernier’s Tantrum party. But for those who have ideological allegiance to the right, there is no real advantage, tactical or strategic, to Bernier gaining support.

“Most likely” COA is the PPC crash and burn and get no seats. “Most dangerous” is Bernier gets his seat and thus lots of airtime, and the CPC lose enough votes to turn enough ridings that it swings either the winner outright, or the majority/minority question for either LPC or CPC.

A vote for the PPC effectively is a vote for the LPC. That might not be an individual’s intent, but that’t The effect. For every shot the PPC fire at a Liberal point target, the CPC are in the beaten zone.


----------



## Navy_Pete (16 Sep 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Thing with that though is that Bernier *may* sap (in the original siege-engineering sense of the word) strength from the CPC, but that will serve not to bolster the LPC. It may redistribute votes; it will not redistribute seats in any way advantageous to the right. In the event of a CPC minority it offers no additional seats right of the liberals to prior then up- not that I personally think that’s terrible; I’ve made no secret of my opinion of Bernier’s Tantrum party. But for those who have ideological allegiance to the right, there is no real advantage, tactical or strategic, to Bernier gaining support.
> 
> “Most likely” COA is the PPC crash and burn and get no seats. “Most dangerous” is Bernier gets his seat and thus lots of airtime, and the CPC lose enough votes to turn enough ridings that it swings either the winner outright, or the majority/minority question for either LPC or CPC.
> 
> A vote for the PPC effectively is a vote for the LPC. That might not be an individual’s intent, but that’t The effect. For every shot the PPC fire at a Liberal point target, the CPC are in the beaten zone.



I could see them getting some seats in QC. The CPC is still seen as an anglo party, the NDP is in freefall, the BQ has done nothing for sovereignty in a few decades, and some of the rhetoric against immigration is similar to what the CAQ rode into power on.

Got some flyers in the mail from 'Team Trudeau'; not sure that's a great call. For the already devoted, it's a waste, for the undecided it's making the Liberals a cult of personality, and that's where the Adm Norman, SNC and other issues will weigh against not just him, but the entire party. The PMO torpedoing Adm Norman's career and life by withholding evidence under the guise of cabinet confidence was the final straw for me personally, but kind of leaves a trash heap to choose from.


----------



## AbdullahD (16 Sep 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Thing with that though is that Bernier *may* sap (in the original siege-engineering sense of the word) strength from the CPC, but that will serve not to bolster the LPC. It may redistribute votes; it will not redistribute seats in any way advantageous to the right. In the event of a CPC minority it offers no additional seats right of the liberals to prior then up- not that I personally think that’s terrible; I’ve made no secret of my opinion of Bernier’s Tantrum party. But for those who have ideological allegiance to the right, there is no real advantage, tactical or strategic, to Bernier gaining support.
> 
> “Most likely” COA is the PPC crash and burn and get no seats. “Most dangerous” is Bernier gets his seat and thus lots of airtime, and the CPC lose enough votes to turn enough ridings that it swings either the winner outright, or the majority/minority question for either LPC or CPC.
> 
> A vote for the PPC effectively is a vote for the LPC. That might not be an individual’s intent, but that’t The effect. For every shot the PPC fire at a Liberal point target, the CPC are in the beaten zone.



I agree with you 100%.

I have already resigned myself to another term of trudeau... just because i lack faith in the cpc right now.

But if it is what canadians want im happy.. sorta.


----------



## Remius (16 Sep 2019)

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> I agree with you 100%.
> 
> I have already resigned myself to another term of trudeau... just because i lack faith in the cpc right now.
> 
> But if it is what canadians want im happy.. sorta.



Hoping for an LPC minority that will be short lived.  With Scheer gone so that a better CPC leader can win the next majority.  

I just hope that that neither party gets a majority in this round.


----------



## Brad Sallows (17 Sep 2019)

Reading polls is one thing; predicting voter reactions is another.

If the PPC polls high enough for the election model forecasts to show a drop in CPC seats, will some of the NDP voters drop their LPC-as-ABC stance to return to the NDP or move to the Greens?  Will enough of those cause the forecasts for NDP seats (or Greens) to rise?  Will the LPC seat forecasts then drop enough to re-alarm the ABC voters?  Etc, etc.


----------



## Cloud Cover (17 Sep 2019)

The website calculatedpolitics.ca has team Trudeau ending just over majority territory now. Again, just an aggregation of polling data updated weekly.


----------



## Cloud Cover (17 Sep 2019)

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> I agree with you 100%.
> 
> I have already resigned myself to another term of trudeau... just because i lack faith in the cpc right now.
> 
> But if it is what canadians want im happy.. sorta.



I’m in agreement too. Not happy - but we could do worse I suppose.


----------



## brihard (18 Sep 2019)

According to the Toronto Sun today, the alleged familial relationship between the RCMP commissioner and Bill Morneau is a complete fabrication. Not surprised, but nice to have it confirmed.

https://torontosun.com/news/national/fake-news-links-bill-morneau-to-rcmp-commish?fbclid=IwAR0YJFr53sCGGV_vArQ3q77fDTDeqVl5-UcjKBGBeE7upjmDxzwL1fSYn-s


----------



## Cloud Cover (18 Sep 2019)

I’m liking the way the media is dealing with all these rumours and allegations. I would like to see the one about Trudeau having drinks with Faith Goldy (and friends) dealt with.


----------



## Brad Sallows (18 Sep 2019)

Trudeau in "brownface" might provide some amusement for a while.


----------



## ballz (18 Sep 2019)

Pretty sad he might actually lose more votes because of that then committing a breach of trust to help SNC-Lavellin out of a criminal jam.


----------



## The Bread Guy (18 Sep 2019)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Trudeau in "brownface" might provide some amusement for a while.


Ooopsie ...


----------



## brihard (18 Sep 2019)

And just for those keeping track, so far it looks like all of the #BoughtMedia /sarcasm are racing each other to cover this rather unflattering coverage of our PM. I haven't looked everywhere of course, but CBC, the Toronto Star, the Globe and Mail, the National Post, CTV, and Global all have it. So there's that.


----------



## brihard (18 Sep 2019)

PMJT has already fallen on his sword admitting it, apologizing, and saying he now sees that it was wrong. Basically exactly what he should have done, and as fast as he could do it. Conveniently for him, Scheer sort of painted himself into a corner on this with his approach to his own candidates’ last indiscretions, and he’s essentially shrugged and said ‘good enough for me’. The NDP will be the ones running hardest with this.

Stupid and embarrassing, with some damage potential. We shall see how it plays out. It certainly won’t play into the CPC’s hand to push too hard, although it will mute some criticism over some of their candidates.

A great night for the reporters though.


----------



## Cloud Cover (19 Sep 2019)

It was the top story at CNN for about 20 minutes, lol.


----------



## AbdullahD (19 Sep 2019)

You know, you do not just magically think something is wrong.

Politicians play a part, regardless of their beliefs.. the part he is playing is being contradicted by his actions. Back in 2001 this was wrong and in bad taste... yet he still did it.

I don't buy that he actually cares about what he did other then it might hurt him politically. 

Abdullah

P.s yeah, I am biased I know.


----------



## FJAG (19 Sep 2019)

You're absolutely right.

This type of behaviour is and was wrong and we all knew it then as well (and as a 29 year-old teacher he sure as hell should have known it) but it's especially egregious when you've been holding yourself out as a paragon of virtue and the most "woke" guy in the legislature.

Sometimes, sorry just doesn't cut it.

 :2c:


----------



## PuckChaser (19 Sep 2019)

Video has now emerged from Global News showing Trudeau in blackface laughing it up for the camera. Article states senior Liberal campaign staffer has confirmed it is Trudeau.

https://globalnews.ca/video/5923071/exclusive-video-shows-trudeau-in-blackface-in-third-instance-of-racist-makeup

 :facepalm:


----------



## Remius (19 Sep 2019)

For those that think this won't stick.

It won't.  But...

It provides some respite to the CPC who have been on the defensive. 

Brihard correctly pointed out that Scheer put himself into a corner on this with his own people.   If he is smart, he'll  focus on his platform and let Singh do the fighting.


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Sep 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> According to the Toronto Sun today, the alleged familial relationship between the RCMP commissioner and Bill Morneau is a complete fabrication. Not surprised, but nice to have it confirmed.
> 
> https://torontosun.com/news/national/fake-news-links-bill-morneau-to-rcmp-commish?fbclid=IwAR0YJFr53sCGGV_vArQ3q77fDTDeqVl5-UcjKBGBeE7upjmDxzwL1fSYn-s


More from CBC.ca on this - screen capture of alleged "Tweet Zero" on this one attached.



			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> And just for those keeping track, so far it looks like all of the #BoughtMedia /sarcasm are racing each other to cover this rather unflattering coverage of our PM. I haven't looked everywhere of course, but CBC, the Toronto Star, the Globe and Mail, the National Post, CTV, and Global all have it. So there's that.


But _some_ haters'll still say, "they're running with it _now_, but it took Time magazine to break the story."  ;D #DevilsAdvocate


----------



## Cloud Cover (19 Sep 2019)

CBC reports the Liberal party has put the campaign on hold. 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-election-2019-where-the-leaders-are-day-9-1.5289326


----------



## SeaKingTacco (19 Sep 2019)

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> CBC reports the Liberal party has put the campaign on hold.
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-election-2019-where-the-leaders-are-day-9-1.5289326



I'll bet it is.

My guess is they are figuring out a way of announcing some new program, using taxpayer money, as a way of apologizing. Because they are that obtuse.

I can forgive alot of things, but not this. Youthful indiscretion should normally be cut alot of slack. But Trudeau and the Liberals wrapped themselves in a cloak of moral superiority and have enjoyed the fruits of that (unexamined and unearned) priviledge, over the past 4 years. The media in Canada has given them a nearly complete pass on their claim of "wokeness".

So- too bad, Liberal Party of Canada. You brought all of this entirely on yourselves. You can eat the consequences.


----------



## Rifleman62 (19 Sep 2019)

Trudeau is already ignored at by the other nations leaders at the G7 et al ( lots of photos/videos to prove that), what would it be like if Trudeau is re-elected? As the head of the government of Canada, the people of Canada, he will be toxic.


----------



## Remius (19 Sep 2019)

If anyone wants to know how it all went down...

https://election.ctvnews.ca/oh-my-god-there-s-a-photo-how-brownface-bombshell-hit-liberal-campaign-bus-1.4600414


----------



## AbdullahD (19 Sep 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> For those that think this won't stick.
> 
> It won't.  But...
> 
> ...



You know what scares me, I have a few buddies who support the LPC and they can not admit Trudeau was a fool doing black face.. instead they say scheer is a rascist or the canadian trump or that the conservative party is the party of rascists and refuse to even discuss the fact they may be wrong.

Ticks me off and scares me how little accountability our leaders have for their actions. Seems like you get a free pass these days.

Abdullah


----------



## brihard (19 Sep 2019)

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> CBC reports the Liberal party has put the campaign on hold.
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-election-2019-where-the-leaders-are-day-9-1.5289326



Tactical pause. “Alright, how many more of these might be out there? What’s our messaging, and how do we get out from under this?”

At this point until the news cycle moves on, any public appearance will not go well for him.


----------



## Remius (19 Sep 2019)

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> You know what scares me, I have a few buddies who support the LPC and they can not admit Trudeau was a fool doing black face.. instead they say scheer is a rascist or the canadian trump or that the conservative party is the party of rascists and refuse to even discuss the fact they may be wrong.
> 
> Ticks me off and scares me how little accountability our leaders have for their actions. Seems like you get a free pass these days.
> 
> Abdullah



Abdullah, I just listened to CBC radio over lunch.  the whole show was about this.   Callers were quick to dismiss this as a minor thing and not say that this was racism despite the PM himself actually saying it was.  One conservative caller actually defended him believe it or not but I bet that caller would have defended Scheer for the same accusations.  At least he wasn't a hypocrite about it. 

Someone said it was ok because he was drama teacher using his skills as a thespian.

In 2001 at 29 as teacher he should have known better.  it was not acceptable then.  It wasn't even acceptable when he did it in the 90s although youthful stupidity can still be accounted for then.

He's not a racist.  But he is entitled, raised in a in a privileged world who worked at an expensive private school where he was likely clueless about things like blackface.  We don't even need to talk about the middle class and how disconnected he is from that. I can accept that he is contrite and apologetic but it does not change the fact that he is clueless. 

For me it's about the hypocrisy of our world.  Trump, Kavanagh, Trudeau, Ford.  They can do no wrong as long as they are on your team.  They will also be racists, sexual predators and misogynists if they aren't.   :


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Sep 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> They can do no wrong as long as they are on your team.


That.  Right.  There.  For all teams.


----------



## PuckChaser (19 Sep 2019)

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> CBC reports the Liberal party has put the campaign on hold.
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-election-2019-where-the-leaders-are-day-9-1.5289326



You mean it wasn't on hold the first 2 days of it when Trudeau refused to take questions from the media?


----------



## Cloud Cover (19 Sep 2019)

Apparently not. It fascinating to watch CBC change headlines, bylines and content in near real time. 

https://twitter.com/LitigationGuy/status/1174645711574634496?s=20


----------



## PuckChaser (19 Sep 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> In 2001 at 29 as teacher he should have known better.  it was not acceptable then.  It wasn't even acceptable when he did it in the 90s although youthful stupidity can still be accounted for then.
> 
> He's not a racist.  But he is entitled, raised in a in a privileged world who worked at an expensive private school where he was likely clueless about things like blackface.  We don't even need to talk about the middle class and how disconnected he is from that. I can accept that he is contrite and apologetic but it does not change the fact that he is clueless.



Kinda puts the India costuming fiasco in perspective, doesn't it? That many incidents isn't an accident, its a deep character flaw.


----------



## YZT580 (19 Sep 2019)

When the first incident occurred and he made his 'apology'to the press was the time to fess up and tell all.  Supposedly, he did and sounded down-right convincing while doing so.  Now we have incident number 3 from out of nowhere.  The problem isn't in the blackface, it is in his being an out and out liar.  The man cannot be trusted at all.


----------



## vonGarvin (19 Sep 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> He's not a racist.



I think he is; he just doesn't realize it.  He is the epitome of bigotry of soft expectations. He believes in intersectionality and that the less privileged you are, the more help you need because you can't do that on your own.


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Sep 2019)

YZT580 said:
			
		

> When the first incident occurred and he made his 'apology'to the press was the time to fess up and tell all.  Supposedly, he did and sounded down-right convincing while doing so.  Now we have incident number 3 from out of nowhere.  The problem isn't in the blackface, it is in his being an out and out liar.  The man cannot be trusted at all.


I didn't hear/see the original interview, but one second-hand version I heard said that when asked something to the effect of, "anything else to fess up to?", he just didn't answer the question.  This opens it up to the "doesn't rule out other instances" narrative - which has proven true. #CleverButNotSoCleverWordsmithing


----------



## YZT580 (19 Sep 2019)

Scheer can still get mileage out of it.  By his standard Trudeau did not 'fess up when given the chance therefore his offer of second chance is null and void.  He can point out his continued deceit without having to go back on what he has said about misdemeanours in his own party ranks


----------



## OldSolduer (19 Sep 2019)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> I guess the PM really does like to dress up. I suspect that there will be other photos becoming public in the days ahead.


My issue with all of this is that SNC Lavalin, the hijinks with Admiral Norman etc is all being swept aside over photographs that are 15 years old. Someone dug deep.


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Sep 2019)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Someone dug deep.


Yes, and no.  The photo seems to have been around for almost 20 years now, but _*nobody*_ seems to have known about it?   _*Lotta *_people out there, and it only takes one to leak it.


----------



## Remius (19 Sep 2019)

Makes me wonder why it wasn’t discovered last time.


----------



## AbdullahD (19 Sep 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Makes me wonder why it wasn’t discovered last time.



*tinfoil on* Calculated leak to the CPC knowing that their base would not waver due to his actions as PM. The CPC then predictably made it public thinking they had the high ground, realizing they couldn't push to hard on the subject the NDP jumped in hoping to draw LPC votes to the NDP.

Meanwhile the LPC is the winner here, all the major issues have been swept aside and this easily mitigated issue is now the forefront.
*tinfoil off*

Or.. someone did do some digging through their archives after they felt Trudeau was being a hypocrite and passed it to the CPC.

Abdullah

P.s if i figured these scandals would hurt me and had this calculated risk.. I might have done option one


----------



## Jarnhamar (19 Sep 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Makes me wonder why it wasn’t discovered last time.



If I knew about it I wouldn't release it until it's close to election time.


----------



## George Wallace (19 Sep 2019)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> I think he is; he just doesn't realize it.  He is the epitome of bigotry of soft expectations. He believes in intersectionality and that the less privileged you are, the more help you need because you can't do that on your own.



I tend to agree as well, to the degree that he has a very long history of anti-English diatribes in the past.  He seems to be prejudiced against Whites, English White European stock.....and all other English speaking Canadians to a slightly lesser degree.


----------



## FSTO (19 Sep 2019)

The parents of the students of the school at the time are rallying to Trudeau's defence.

"It was a very multicultural school"
"We were all having fun"

I'm really torn on this. Should I feel outrage that he did a racist thing? No not really.
My issue is that Team Trudeau made a lot of hay outing conservatives. Should they not be under the same scrutiny for actions that if it wasn't them they'd be selling the tar and feathers?


----------



## Remius (19 Sep 2019)

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> Good luck with that. Different teams, different rules of identity outrage and fear mongering.



Absolutely.

Leader has done and said racist things but isn’t a racist.
Leader accused of groping a woman.
leader caught in ethical scandals
leader fires members of cabinet because they won’t break the rules for him

This could be Trudeau or could be Trump.  Those of you that give either one a pass on this stuff but are willing to crucify the other are hypocrites.

Saw an interview where an LPC strategist was asked if he was so willing to forgive Trudeau and move on would he do the same for someone like Donald Trump.  The waffling and tongue tying was fun to watch. 

The state of today’s political discourse and reasoning is abysmal.


----------



## FJAG (20 Sep 2019)

Glad to know that I'm not a hypocrite as I wish that the electorates in both countries should kick their respective butts into the gutter.

 :clubinhand:


----------



## FSTO (20 Sep 2019)

Gen Leslie (Ret) was interviewed in a local Ottawa media outlet and he said (paraphrase) that he resigned due to questionable ethical issues with some of his colleagues.


----------



## George Wallace (20 Sep 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Absolutely.
> 
> Leader has done and said racist things but isn’t a racist.
> Leader accused of groping a woman.
> ...



True; but we only vote on the Canadian, not the American.  It is our 'leader' that we must be concerned with.  The other we only watch out of curiosity, like a 2 Lt, to see what he will do next.


----------



## The Bread Guy (20 Sep 2019)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> … It is our 'leader' that we must be concerned with ...


Very true re:  who we're voting for and who we should focus on.  If someone is concerned about behaviour x on the part of one person but not concerned about the same behaviour on the part of someone else, though, this could reveal something about the level of nuance & consistency of said concern, and the reasons for the different levels of concern.  That goes ALL ways for ALL team jersey colours.  


			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> … The other we only watch out of curiosity, like a 2 Lt, to see what he will do next.


Does he happen to have a map & compass, too?  :rofl:


----------



## Remius (20 Sep 2019)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Macbeth called it:  "it is a tale. Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing."
> 
> *ALL* of our parties, plus many public commentators, and site members have sunk into the depths of meaningless name-calling and mud-slinging (while sanctimoniously finger-pointing [or cheerleading] towards the south for identical behaviours).  :not-again:
> 
> ...



This.  I asked someone what they disliked about the CPC platform.  He admitted he hadn't even looked at it.  Just the normal fear mongering lines.


----------



## Jonezy76 (20 Sep 2019)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Macbeth called it:  "it is a tale. Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing."
> 
> *ALL* of our parties, plus many public commentators, and site members have sunk into the depths of meaningless name-calling and mud-slinging (while sanctimoniously finger-pointing [or cheerleading] towards the south for identical behaviours).  :not-again:
> 
> ...



The CPC wants to increase funding (16.1Billion) and take politics out of procurement. I found an article, but it's from the CBC..... 
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/scheer-foreign-defence-policy-procurement-trudeau-1.5127028

The Libs are already cutting billions...
https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2019/03/04/liberals-military-equipment-spending_a_23683697/

The Greens plan to maintain at 1.1% of GDP.
https://www.greenparty.ca/en/convention-2012/voting/motions/%5Bfield_code-raw%5D-72

Nothing recent from the NDP.

Here's an article that touches on a couple things to do with National Defence...
https://www.macleans.ca/politics/2019-federal-election-platform-guide-where-the-parties-stand-on-everything/#defence


----------



## QV (20 Sep 2019)

Well has anyone even read the PPC platform?  

Max refused to call Trudeau a racist for this blackface stuff, only said he was a gigantic hypocrite, he focuses on his policy differences.  I applaud that.   

But according to the msm, Max is the head of a racist nationalist party.  Funny, he wasn't a racist before he challenged anyone or when he was a cabinet minister. 

I agree, politics is more toxic than ever.


----------



## Journeyman (20 Sep 2019)

Jonezy76 said:
			
		

> The CPC wants...


It's a good start, but none are particularly timely (ie - since campaigning began)

Correction: I saw the April publication date, but just noticed that it's being updated;  most recent was two days ago.


----------



## FJAG (20 Sep 2019)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Let's hope that they don't start talking about Long Guns instead of Handguns.



Your wish has been heard and denied.



> Liberals to unveil details of plan to restrict assault rifles, handguns
> Social Sharing
> 
> Gun control measures starkly different from Conservative plan to crack down on illegal owners
> ...



https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/liberal-gun-control-trudeau-2019-1.5290950


----------



## brihard (20 Sep 2019)

QV said:
			
		

> Well has anyone even read the PPC platform?
> 
> Max refused to call Trudeau a racist for this blackface stuff, only said he was a gigantic hypocrite, he focuses on his policy differences.  I applaud that.
> 
> ...



Yes, I read the PPC platform in its entirety, to the extent it had been published a few days ago. Max is head of a racist nationalist party, which is why we’ve seen racist nationalists flocking to it. A politician will absolutely be judged by the company they keep and the candidates and views that assemble under their banner. PPC, apparently completely ignorant of demographics and Canada’s low birth rates, want to greatly restrict the number of foreigners immigrating to Canada. They also want to make sure they are tested against the PPC’s idea of the ‘right’ set of values. They quite explicitly want to target their immigration quotas to minority Christians specifically. So yes, they absolutely have heavy ideological and racial biases in who they want to admit as newcomers to Canada in various categories. The very layout of their website places immigration and cultural issues prominently above energy infrastructure, foreign and domestic trade, healthcare, and the environment. They’ve made their priorities and who they’re appealing to crystal clear.

There have been a number of insider accounts from disenfranchised PPC enthusiasts who were quite active in the party, and have since bailed when they saw what sort of people were being welcomed into and embraced by the party. Now that’s not to say they’re a step away from running around wearing white sheets; they aren’t populated solely with reprehensible people. A lot of normal people are disaffected enough to have gone their way for lack of anything they feel is a better option. But they seem perfectly comfortable with building their platform and appeal on an ugly foundation.

With that said, I will credit Bernier with avoiding hypocrisy for not calling Trudeau out on this particular foulup- though any credit I grant is heavily discounted by Bernier likely knowing he hasn’t a leg to stand on in this one anyway; he spoke because in an election season he needs to be seen and heard.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (20 Sep 2019)

FJAG said:
			
		

> Your wish has been heard and denied.
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/liberal-gun-control-trudeau-2019-1.5290950



Nothing is going to happen.  There will be some token smoke blown in the air as a deflection for other issues but it will all come to nothing.


----------



## The Bread Guy (20 Sep 2019)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Nothing is going to happen.  There will be some token smoke blown in the air as a deflection for other issues but it will all come to nothing.


Initial reports from the newser via The Canadian Press:


> Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau is promising to ban all military-style assault rifles as part of a broader gun-control plan that will also take steps towards restricting and banning handguns.
> 
> Trudeau is making the pledge in Toronto as he tries to get his campaign back on track after apologizing for wearing blackface years ago.
> 
> ...



Also adding this to the Great Gun Control thread so the politics can be discussed here, and the mechanics of the proposals there.


----------



## Cloud Cover (20 Sep 2019)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Macbeth called it:  "it is a tale. Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing."
> 
> *ALL* of our parties, plus many public commentators, and site members have sunk into the depths of meaningless name-calling and mud-slinging (while sanctimoniously finger-pointing [or cheerleading] towards the south for identical behaviours).  :not-again:
> 
> ...



Is it possible that now a days policy is made on the fly in the heat of an election, but the only real meat is funding announcements that may or not be costed, and which may or may not come to fruition. 

The Liberal Red Book in the 90’s is the last I can remember of a genuine policy handbook, and even some of that fell apart during and after the election(s).

I think people know no more about what/who they will vote against than what/who they might vote for.


----------



## OldSolduer (20 Sep 2019)

Policy. That’s the catchword. Not many people bother listening to a policy announcement.
Due to the dumbing down of our society (thank you reality TV and fluffy talk show hosts) most people would rather watch name calling losers in a house rather than listen to a policy that will affect them 30 years down the road. 
Then they’ll claim they weren’t told.
I do fear for our nation.


----------



## Rifleman62 (20 Sep 2019)

> Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau is promising to ban all military-style assault rifles as part of a broader gun-control plan that will also take steps towards restricting and banning handguns.



Legally acquired guns only. No effort/policy to get illegal acquired guns off the streets.


----------



## Brad Sallows (20 Sep 2019)

"I am wary of being definitive" joins "I have no recollection of that" in the wallet card of answers-to-difficult-questions.


----------



## Spencer100 (20 Sep 2019)

To lose the NY Times!  That is like death to progressives and liberals
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/19/opinion/trudeau-brownface-canada.html?fbclid=IwAR1y3_vrO_CoWsiLKg3D0bXXz9GywtMFF0cUVEVI-6dBo7l6wDt-Lyb1xHI

There is way more to this story. 

It has the feel of an internal hit job by old line Liberals.  They must really hate Justin and Butts


----------



## Remius (20 Sep 2019)

Still early in the scandal but...

https://election.ctvnews.ca/no-drop-so-far-in-liberal-support-after-bombshell-revelations-nanos-1.4602168


----------



## QV (20 Sep 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Yes, I read the PPC platform in its entirety, to the extent it had been published a few days ago. *Max is head of a racist nationalist party*, which is why we’ve seen racist nationalists flocking to it. A politician will absolutely be judged by the company they keep and the candidates and views that assemble under their banner. PPC, apparently completely ignorant of demographics and Canada’s low birth rates, want to greatly restrict the number of foreigners immigrating to Canada. They also want to make sure they are tested against the PPC’s idea of the ‘right’ set of values. They quite explicitly want to target their immigration quotas to minority Christians specifically. So yes, they absolutely have heavy ideological and racial biases in who they want to admit as newcomers to Canada in various categories. The very layout of their website places immigration and cultural issues prominently above energy infrastructure, foreign and domestic trade, healthcare, and the environment. They’ve made their priorities and who they’re appealing to crystal clear.
> 
> There have been a number of insider accounts from disenfranchised PPC enthusiasts who were quite active in the party, and have since bailed when they saw what sort of people were being welcomed into and embraced by the party. Now that’s not to say they’re a step away from running around wearing white sheets; they aren’t populated solely with reprehensible people. A lot of normal people are disaffected enough to have gone their way for lack of anything they feel is a better option. But they seem perfectly comfortable with building their platform and appeal on an ugly foundation.
> 
> With that said, I will credit Bernier with avoiding hypocrisy for not calling Trudeau out on this particular foulup- though any credit I grant is heavily discounted by Bernier likely knowing he hasn’t a leg to stand on in this one anyway; he spoke because in an election season he needs to be seen and heard.



Suggesting this party is racist is a gigantic and disappointing leap for you to make.  Frankly, with a declaration like that, you are part of this toxic problem.  Reasonable debate on important issues can't even take place when one side screams racist because they disagree with a position.  If they were publishing hateful and racist material in their election platform, they would come afoul of the laws on hate speech.  Prioritizing skilled immigrants over unskilled is not racist.  Believing in less immigration than the LPC each year is not racist.  Opposing Trudeau's view that Canada has no core identity is not racist.  Almost all of the PPC candidates' Twitter and Facebook links are posted on their site, are you suggesting all of these people are racists or comfortable to be in a racist party?  There is an entire province that has taken ample steps to protect their identity - is that racist? 

        “Racism is not dead, but it is on life support — kept alive by politicians, race hustlers and people who get a sense of superiority by denouncing others as ‘racists’”
— Thomas Sowell


----------



## FJAG (20 Sep 2019)

> Singh says he'll talk with Trudeau to accept apology only if it's in private and politics-free
> 
> Justin Trudeau says he wants to talk with Singh to offer an in-person apology for blackface images
> Peter Zimonjic · CBC News · Posted: Sep 20, 2019
> ...



https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/singh-trudeau-meeting-blackface-1.5292001

Call me a cynic but I can't see any way, regardless whether its in private or not, that this would be anything but a political stunt by Trudeau. The mere fact that such a meeting has been asked for is an act of political damage control.

My guess is that the Liberal machinery is spinning into high gear to set up umpteen meetings with Liberal friendly groups of colour for a short burst of "all is forgiven" media moments and then it will be back to business as usual to let the issue die in the later part of the campaign.

Maybe Singh should meet with him and then come out of the meeting and say I couldn't accept the apology because the acts were too egregious and he didn't seem sincere. Win-win! But that won't happen.

op:


----------



## ModlrMike (20 Sep 2019)

For the record, I usually find Piers Morgan an insufferable blow-hard, but it's difficult to disagree with him this time:

*PIERS MORGAN: Blackface Trudeau should apply the same high horse standards to himself that he applies to everyone else – and demand his own racist head on a plate*

So, let me get this absolutely straight…

Justin Trudeau, the Prime Minister of Canada and arguably the most woke, virtue-signalling and PC-crazed leader in the history of Mankind – or ‘Peoplekind’ as he insisted we rename it last year - turns out to have a rather cracked halo?

Wow. I’m so shocked…not.

I’ve not met a high-horse rider yet who doesn’t eventually tumble off into a pit of shameless hypocrisy.

[MORE]


----------



## The Bread Guy (21 Sep 2019)

Interesting bit from some members of the #NotYetBoughtMedia ...


> *Statement on Unifor’s political actions and Canadian journalists*
> Mason Wright, September 20, 2019
> 
> As unionized employees of media outlets, we are members of Unifor, the private-sector trade union that represents more than 300,000 Canadian workers in 20 sectors of the economy. But many of us are also journalists whose livelihoods depend on being able to report the news free of outside influence.
> ...


----------



## George Wallace (21 Sep 2019)

It seems to me that Justin Trudeau has never been very observant of current events; not even within his own Party.  Long-time LPC supporter and National Post Commentator Stephen LeDrew has been criticizing Trudeau and his Government for over a year now.  His latest commentary on Trudeau's 'racism' and 'hypocrisy' is here (dated 19 Sep 19):

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=uvJc03K4VVw


----------



## brihard (21 Sep 2019)

QV said:
			
		

> Suggesting this party is racist is a gigantic and disappointing leap for you to make.  Frankly, with a declaration like that, you are part of this toxic problem.  Reasonable debate on important issues can't even take place when one side screams racist because they disagree with a position.  If they were publishing hateful and racist material in their election platform, they would come afoul of the laws on hate speech.  Prioritizing skilled immigrants over unskilled is not racist.  Believing in less immigration than the LPC each year is not racist.  Opposing Trudeau's view that Canada has no core identity is not racist.  Almost all of the PPC candidates' Twitter and Facebook links are posted on their site, are you suggesting all of these people are racists or comfortable to be in a racist party?  There is an entire province that has taken ample steps to protect their identity - is that racist?
> 
> “Racism is not dead, but it is on life support — kept alive by politicians, race hustlers and people who get a sense of superiority by denouncing others as ‘racists’”
> — Thomas Sowell



Here's the thing- your reply is basically predicated on the line you used, "when one side screams racist because they disagree with a position". But that's not what I'm doing. I guess I'll accept the backhanded compliment that you're 'disappointed' - but the reason you're 'disappointed' to see this post from me is that this is not generally something I say. I don't shrilly call racism because I disagree with people. I absolutely don't need to resort to allegations of racism to criticise PPC's policies. I didn't use the term 'racist' because I have nothing else to go on. I described them as a racist party because in totality their views on a number of issues - and the prominence those issues take in their platform - paint that picture for me. You're basically ignoring the forest for the individual trees and putting each platform plank in a frictionless vacuum. I'm looking at the bigger picture and seeing something that I believe is pernicious, ugly, and based on some underlying racist attitudes shared by enough of their party to inform their policy. When one of their own candidates a bit over a week ago called publicly on Bernier to clearly and publicly repudiate racist and white supremacist attitudes in order to help clear that up and make it easier for him as a candidate to run for the party without that cloud hanging over him, the party instead booted him as a candidate. I firmly beleive the PPC knows who its appealing to and has decided that for the sake of votes they're OK with that.

The PPC are a joke for a host of reasons. The party's very existence is a tantrum manifest. They're dug to the bottom of some pretty gross barrels for candidates. They cannot keep their house in order; candidates and staff have been dropping out or getting punted all over the place. Bernier, in an ego trip, basically tried to forcibly cobble together a party too late in the game that would run a full slate, and some huge shortcuts have had to be taken... It's more amateurish than a former leadership contender for the CPC has any business being, but it is what it is. They have a fraction of a platform, with their biggest focus on immigration and identity not being grounded in demographic reality. Even aside from the populism and the identity politics, it's just flat out economically unsound. 

So no, I don't need to call out the PPC as having racist motivations in order to critique their many issues. I callet it out because it came up in discussion here, and because frankly I felt it was worth saying. The rise of crass populism within our democracy is concerning. If identity politics is distasteful and tawdry when coming from the left, then it's sure as hell also distasteful and tawdry coming from the right. 

I'm not sure why you asked about Quebec's policies, because frankly it's not pertinent to this at all. But since you ask, yes, I believe Quebec's recent legislative changes to try to repress religious minorities is similarly racist.

Xenophobia is alive and well in this country, and it has been re-emboldened. I'm not going to ignore it or pretend it isn't there.


----------



## Cloud Cover (21 Sep 2019)

I would say that Salim Mansur, a PPC candidate, is probably one of the most thoughtful, intelligent and balanced people running for a seat in this election. Unfortunately, his party is not at all at his standard but the Conservatives dropped him because he spoke truth to powerful interests.

I’m looking for a good independent in my riding ( North Okanagan) to vote for. All the mainstream parties are ill.


----------



## brihard (21 Sep 2019)

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> I would say that Salim Mansur, a PPC candidate, is probably one of the most thoughtful, intelligent and balanced people running for a seat in this election. Unfortunately, his party is not at all at his standard but the Conservatives dropped him because he spoke truth to powerful interests.
> 
> I’m looking for a good independent in my riding ( North Okanagan) to vote for. All the mainstream parties are ill.



That is indeed an unfortunate disqualification. It speaks to one of my earlier comments about how there will be some good people who have become sufficiently disenchanted with the major parties that they fall back on or are pushed to the PPC as a last resort that still presents as electorally relevant.


----------



## Remius (21 Sep 2019)

Latest poll tracker.

CPC with slight lead.  LPC seat rejection slips a bit.

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/


----------



## Cloud Cover (21 Sep 2019)

If you look at calculates politics, even at the high end of seat projections the conservatives do not have the seats to win a majority.
 I wonder how things will work out if the Libs and the Cons both come in with ~140 seats each.


----------



## brihard (21 Sep 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Latest poll tracker.
> 
> CPC with slight lead.  LPC seat rejection slips a bit.
> 
> https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/



Pretty long ‘tail’ on the weighting they assign. All by 15.7% of the weight is from the 17th or earlier. It’ll take a while for any significant events or shifts in support to be particularly reflected. Not a bad thing in and of itself when looking at longer trajectories, but not a good barometer from day to day swings when there’s ‘big’ news...


----------



## Haggis (21 Sep 2019)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Well the Liberals have just mobilized the majority of gun owners to go help the local CPC candidate.



Not quite.  The Liberals have mobilized all the *hunters* to support them with a promise to leave them alone.

"And as we take concrete action, we’ll continue to respect Canadian *hunters, farmers*, and sport shooters. We will not bring back the long-gun registry. *Hunters do not use or need assault weapons.*"


----------



## ballz (21 Sep 2019)

338 Canada is showing a significant change over the last two days in favour of the Conservatives.... The odds of forming government has gone from 80% Liberal / 20% CPC to 60%/40%. The Liberals had slowly moved up to 178 seats in the projections, and have now dropped to 161.

http://338canada.com/?fbclid=IwAR1PDYPCFzvluAlOYF-nVuiaGqHUGm5DDZfBnrmZShT0cpjjsAmqIWsDAqU


----------



## Remius (22 Sep 2019)

Eric Grenier's latest poll tracker.

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/

One would think the LPC would have dropped more.


----------



## Old Sweat (22 Sep 2019)

This Reuters story is reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act. It is the only one of this nature I have seen and we should remember that one Robin does not make a Spring.

Canada's Trudeau campaigns after blackface images deliver blow to polling numbers

OTTAWA (Reuters) - Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau returned to the campaign trail on Sunday in his bid for re-election in October as polls showed his Liberals took a significant hit with voters after photos emerged of him in blackface. 
FILE PHOTO - Canada's Prime Minister Justin Trudeau speaks during an election campaign stop in Toronto, Ontario, Canada September 20, 2019. REUTERS/Carlos Osorio
Trudeau has repeatedly apologized for the photos, which jarred with his oft-stated position that he wants to improve the lot of minorities in Canada and prompted accusations of hypocrisy. 
Trudeau was headed for the Ontario city of Brampton, where 58% of the population is either south Asian or black. The Liberals took all five of Brampton’s seats in 2015 and need to retain them to stand a chance of winning the Oct. 21 election. 
Before the photos emerged last week, surveys of public opinion strongly suggested Trudeau would beat the opposition Conservatives of Andrew Scheer, who is a legislator. 
Now the polls have shifted and the Liberals are looking particularly vulnerable in Ontario, said pollster Frank Graves of EKOS Research, who said he would release his exact survey figures later this week. 
The day before the pictures emerged, “the Liberals were at or very close to a majority” in the House of Commons, Graves said. “That’s completely turned around and maybe the Conservatives are in majority range now.” 
“The Liberals’ Ontario lead appears to have evaporated almost overnight,” he added. At the end of August, the Liberals had a 15 percentage point lead on Conservatives Ontario, according to an EKOS poll. 
Conservatives would now win 35.5% of the vote and the Liberals 32.9%, a Nanos Research poll released on Sunday said. 
The theme of Trudeau’s campaign stop in Brampton is making life more affordable for Canadians, which had been one of the main thrusts of the campaign before the photo scandal. 
Foreign Minister Chrystia Freeland is due to attend a Toronto town hall hosted by the National Council of Canadian Muslims on Sunday. The council has accepted Trudeau’s apology after initially issued an angry statement. 
Freeland has said she was saddened by the photos but stressed she fully backed Trudeau. Other Liberal legislators and candidates have also expressed unhappiness. 
Insiders have dismissed the idea of anyone in the party mounting a challenge against Trudeau during the campaign, saying that would be tantamount to electoral suicide. 
Reporting by David Ljunggren, additional reporting by Steve Scherer in Ottawa; Editing by Sonya Hepinstall


----------



## ModlrMike (22 Sep 2019)

Red Liberals were never going to be moved by this scandal. The goal is to move blue Liberals right and orange Liberals left. If the Torries can cause enough vote splitting between the Liberals and NDP, particularly in the more multicultural ridings, then that's a win for them.


----------



## Haggis (23 Sep 2019)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I don't think for a moment that hunters, farmers, and sport shooters will be duped by the Liberals fancy prose on this one. They're well aware that they're up next. Death by inches.



The Liberal's updated backgrounder now makes no mention of respecting the rights of sport shooters.

How will that affect the thousands of LEOs, military and other armed professionals who own and use personal handguns?  How will that affect competition shooters from IPSC to the Olympics?

_Edit to fix malformed URL to enable hyperlink to backgrounder - Staff_


----------



## SeaKingTacco (23 Sep 2019)

Haggis said:
			
		

> The Liberal's updated {url=https://2019.liberal.ca/wp-content/uploads/sites/292/2019/09/2019-backgrounder-guns-ENG-1.pdf]backgrounder[/url] now makes no mention of respecting the rights of sport shooters.
> 
> How will that affect the thousands of LEOs, military and other armed professionals who own and use personal handguns?  How will that affect competition shooters from IPSC to the Olympics?



You don't actually think they thought through the practical implications of this, do you?

Take for example giving munipicalities the right to ban guns in their boundries. Most municipalities do not own ranges for their police forces- most use civilian facilities. Most of those ranges will either cease to exist or will refuse to rent to Law enforcement agencies if this goes through.

Then what?


----------



## FJAG (23 Sep 2019)

Is it just me or are all the things that the Liberals are staring to promise, things that they could have very easily brought in during their last four years as a majority government? Seems to me all that they've actually accomplished is to legalize weed and initiate an unpopular carbon tax.

 :dunno:


----------



## Remius (23 Sep 2019)

FJAG said:
			
		

> Is it just me or are all the things that the Liberals are staring to promise, things that they could have very easily brought in during their last four years as a majority government? Seems to me all that they've actually accomplished is to legalize weed and initiate an unpopular carbon tax.
> 
> :dunno:



The Child Benefit they introduced is a decent success.

The free trade deal with the US and Mexico could also be pointed to but isn't ratified yet.

But even with that it is a pretty short list and yes a lot of what they are proposing could have been done in the last four years.


----------



## daftandbarmy (23 Sep 2019)

FJAG said:
			
		

> Is it just me or are all the things that the Liberals are staring to promise, things that they could have very easily brought in during their last four years as a majority government? Seems to me all that they've actually accomplished is to legalize weed and initiate an unpopular carbon tax.
> 
> :dunno:



Well, they also bought us our first pipeline for a few billion dollars, letting a big Texas based company off the hook.


----------



## Halifax Tar (23 Sep 2019)

*An old photo of Stephen Harper in Indigenous garb is being misrepresented online*

https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/stephen-harper-headdress-trudeau-blackface-1.5294119

In the wake of Liberal leader Justin Trudeau's blackface scandal, an image of Stephen Harper is being shared online showing the former prime minister wearing an Indigenous headdress and face paint.

Those posting the images are attempting to draw parallels between the images of Trudeau wearing blackface makeup and the photo of Harper. But Harper wasn't wearing a costume at the time — he was taking part in a ceremony naming him an honorary chief.

<More on link above> 

Honestly I am surprised.  I would expect the CBC to twist this normally...


----------



## The Bread Guy (24 Sep 2019)

Some tidbits on other ways to cover elections and (at least one factor?) why we get the election coverage we get ...


> … The Boston radio station WBUR, for example, is polling people in its region to find out what issues they want the 2020 presidential candidates to address; these results will direct their coverage. The Dublin Inquirer took the same tack in its coverage of the local city election, boiling down its focus to 10 key issues; increasing the supply of social and affordable housing was number 1.
> 
> The approach is referred to as the “citizens agenda” by New York University journalism professor Jay Rosen, one of the most influential media critics in North America. He has excoriated the horse-race journalism that characterizes US media coverage (and, it should be said, Canadian coverage).
> 
> ...


More @ link here.


> … When the Reform Party arrived in Ottawa in the mid-1990s there was a small but vocal group within it that could be best described as ‘perma-mad’. They were angry about everything from every decision by the Liberal government to their perceived unfair treatment by the media to cultural and social policies and immigration and everything in between. Before their feet hit the floor in the morning they were mad, they were angry about everything all day long and the last thing they thought of before falling asleep at night was how mad they were.
> 
> It was incongruous largely because it lacked perspective. Not everything is a 10-alarm fire. When everything is, then very quickly nothing is. Others in the party moved the ‘perma-mad’ crowd to the fringe, where they would erupt on occasion attracting attention. But the mainstream of the Reform party assessed political issues on their individual merits with a degree of perspective the ‘perma-mad’ gang never had.
> 
> ...


More @ link here or here.


----------



## Journeyman (24 Sep 2019)

Munk Foreign Policy debate cancelled, as Liberal Party refuses to respond to invitation  [Link]


> *The Munk Debates
> @munkdebate*
> The Munk Debates wishes to thank Elizabeth May, Andrew Scheer and Jagmeet Singh for accepting our invitation to debate and their willingness to face challenging questions about their foreign policy platforms.









Last election, there were five leaders' debates;  this time, three, with none on Foreign Policy.  I guess the Liberals accept that the UN SC seat isn't coming our way, so there's no need to pontificate to the world about Canada's global awesomeness.   :


----------



## ModlrMike (24 Sep 2019)

Remind me... these are the same guys that said Mr Harper was afraid to address the public last go round, right?


----------



## The Bread Guy (24 Sep 2019)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Remind me... these are the same guys that said Mr Harper was afraid to address the public last go round, right?


For the record from 2015, Harper took part in 5 debates, and declined 2.(source).  

We'll see what the final score for Team Red ends up being, with one debate already cancelled.  op:


----------



## Journeyman (25 Sep 2019)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Remind me... these are the same guys that said Mr Harper was afraid to address the public last go round, right?


    ???

Harper, Mulcair, and Trudeau participated in the Munk foreign policy debate on 28 Sep 2015.  

It's available at LINK, if anyone is wishing Harper was back instead of Sheer. 
(For some strange reason, Munk files their debates by the speakers' first names;  you'll find Stephen Harper between Stephens' Fry and Bannon.  :stars: )


----------



## FSTO (26 Sep 2019)

I was at the all candidates meeting at the Glebe last night. Truth be told, McKenna handled herself well last night and so did Taman (NDP). The crowd was supportive of the Green candidate but that waned as the evening progressed. There was indifference shown towards the CPC and outright hostility towards the PPC. I'll give the PPC candidate kudos for showing up and stating her case but the crowd was having none of her pitch.

McKenna brought up Ford and Harper quite a bit which brought a snort from me and some eye rolling from folks sitting beside me. One person muttered under their breath "You've had 4 years!"

Lots of promises of net zero emissions by 2030 from both the Greens and Liberals. NDP has electric buses, green industry, blah blah.

I was sitting beside a couple (husband in the Foreign Service) who liked Taman but thinks Singh is too green and cannot stand Scheer so she'll be voting Liberal. The husband was a good federal civil servant and kept his thoughts to himself.

In the line-up heading into the hall was a fellow Cold Warrior handing out Communist Party of Canada pamphlets. I acknowledged his service as he did mine and I took a pamphlet. It was full of the usual stuff and to pay for it all was a 75% cut in the CAF. Some things never change. 
Had to give him kudos for keeping up the cause though, because right on cue at the start of the introductions he caused a bit of kerfuffle yelling about the illegitimacy of the proceedings since all the candidates were not on the stage.
He was quietly escorted to the back of the room to hang out with the other also-ran candidates.


----------



## Remius (26 Sep 2019)

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/

latest poll aggregate from Eric Grenier.

This election makes no sense...


----------



## dapaterson (26 Sep 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/
> 
> latest poll aggregate from Eric Grenier.
> 
> This election makes no sense...



Nanos' results today from the 905 area (Toronto suburbs) must have panic setting in in some circles; one does not drop over 7% in a week, go from a comfortable lead to a dead heat, and not FREAK OUT!


----------



## Haggis (26 Sep 2019)

If anyone has any doubts about the influence of the anti-gun lobby and the Liberal end game on gun control, pay very close attention to the imagery in this Liberal campaign video.  Except for the Uzi at 0:19, which appears to be in the hands of a European police officer, those aren't illegal guns, and those people - including Conservative leader Andrew Scheer and Conservative candidate Michele Rempel -  aren't gang bangers.  Totally dishonest, if you ask me.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (27 Sep 2019)

Haggis said:
			
		

> If anyone has any doubts about the influence of the anti-gun lobby and the Liberal end game on gun control, pay very close attention to the imagery in this Liberal campaign video.  Except for the Uzi at 0:19, which appears to be in the hands of a European police officer, those aren't illegal guns, and those people - including Conservative candidate Michele Rempel -  aren't gang bangers.  Totally dishonest, if you ask me.



If you go and read the comments (yes, some of us are do) and just about everyone is against the video.


----------



## Haggis (27 Sep 2019)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> If you go and read the comments (yes, some of us do) and just about everyone is against the video.


  Comments notwithstanding, the Liberal message is out there.  * All guns* are bad and we're coming for them.


----------



## Jonezy76 (27 Sep 2019)

The CCFR just received 3rd party status. They have a big announcement today.



> "Big announcement coming this Friday at 3pm Pacific\6pm Eastern on the CCFR Radio Podcast, BIG.
> 
> You'll see how far the CCFR is willing to go to save our guns.
> 
> ...


----------



## Haggis (27 Sep 2019)

Jonezy76 said:
			
		

> The CCFR just received 3rd party status. They have a big announcement today.


  I believe the CCFR has had third party status for quite a while.  CSSA has recently registered as a result of a Liberal candidate's complaint against their PSA protecting gun ownership.


----------



## Remius (27 Sep 2019)

if anyone has any doubts about doing politics differently or Trudeau's stance on women, this just helps cement those doubts.

https://election.ctvnews.ca/liberal-leader-trudeau-denies-mp-pushed-out-for-not-lauding-him-as-feminist-1.4610019

https://torontosun.com/news/national/election-2019/lilley-trudeaus-troubling-pattern-with-strong-women


----------



## ModlrMike (27 Sep 2019)

At what point does political commentary become libel?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/liberal-attacks-conservative-candidate-1.5297446


----------



## Retired AF Guy (28 Sep 2019)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> At what point does political commentary become libel?
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/liberal-attacks-conservative-candidate-1.5297446



Par for course. In this case a reporter for a right-leaning think tank was refused access  access to public rallies and refused to give a reason. 



> 'You've got to go': Liberals apologize to conservative broadcaster banned from public rally
> 
> 'They wouldn't even recognize me as a Canadian citizen wanting to hear a prime minister speak at an event,' Andrew Lawton said
> 
> ...



 Article Link


----------



## MilEME09 (28 Sep 2019)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Par for course. In this case a reporter for a right-leaning think tank was refused access  access to public rallies and refused to give a reason.



I feel like the part where police asked him to leave without a reason shouldnt of happened. Police should in my opinion demand a credible reason as to why they have to remove a person who is standing in line. The fact the liberals are banning right leaning journalists just shows they arent as pen and transparent as they have lied abou....i mean told the public.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (28 Sep 2019)

Should we really be concerned about the promises he keeps making? After all, he hasn't really kept any from the last four years, has he?

Except his gun confiscation, that one is doable. And at the risk of ridicule and derision, it's the next step in the move to socialism. An armed society cannot be controlled by dishonest politicians who seek to control every aspect of our lives. 

Communism is the only governance that you can vote yourself into, but have to shoot your way out of.

Viva Brazil.


----------



## Jarnhamar (29 Sep 2019)

Trudeau didn't just paint his face black. He went all out and wore a wig and painted his legs black. So much for the _just an innocent mistake of poor judgement at an Arabian Nights party._

https://twitter.com/seanmurphy_ott/status/1178014656037883905/video/1

Gotta respect that kind of attention to detail.


----------



## Remius (29 Sep 2019)

Latest poll tracker has the LPC regaining some ground.

Not enough to get back to majority territory but enough for a minority.  

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/


----------



## Infanteer (29 Sep 2019)

Fishbone Jones said:
			
		

> Should we really be concerned about the promises he keeps making? After all, he hasn't really kept any from the last four years, has he?



Actually, he's kept over half....

https://trudeaumetre.polimeter.org/

https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/a-look-at-policy-areas-scrutinized-by-a-new-book-on-the-trudeau-government



> Communism is the only governance that you can vote yourself into, but have to shoot your way out of.



Really?  Are you sure that's true?  Aside from Romania, nobody really shot their way out of communism in 1989-1990 - their bloated regimes just kind of keeled over and handed over power.


----------



## Journeyman (30 Sep 2019)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Really?  Are you sure that's true?


Objective truth is meaningless to some people.


From CBC Radio, "Make debate great again: How bad political argument is undermining democracy":


> …. growing political polarization, hyper-politicized social media, and the echo chambers we inhabit online and off create a perfect storm of imperfect argument.
> 
> These depictions signal that the people on the other side "aren't even worth listening to, because the views that they have are so 'extreme and crazy,' there couldn't be any profitable reasoning with them."


There _are_  people I find not worth listening to;  I accept that it makes me part of the problem.  To 'extreme and crazy' however, I would add those who openly embrace compulsive lying.  The only way they can apparently make their case is through lies, deceit, and misdirection -- merely being repetitive doesn't magically change it into truth.

And it's not getting better, as "debates simultaneously are becoming both shrill and tone deaf."    :not-again:


----------



## Jarnhamar (30 Sep 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> This from the just released Liberal Platform will make me vote Liberal in this election.  This is something ALL party's should be doing in my opinion.




The Liberals care so much they waited until 19 days before the election to unveil this, after being in office for 4 years   :


----------



## Cloud Cover (30 Sep 2019)

“The things that mean so much to you don’t mean that much to me.” Neil Young
Except until 3 weeks before an election ...


----------



## Haggis (30 Sep 2019)

This, if true, could spell the end of the Conservative election chances.  Team Trudeau will latch onto this like a starving pitbull and run hard with it.


----------



## Remius (30 Sep 2019)

Haggis said:
			
		

> This, if true, could spell the end of the Conservative election chances.  Team Trudeau will latch onto this like a starving pitbull and run hard with it.



Was a bad day for him today.  Between that and the kerfufle with a rebel media type Scheer is back on the defensive.

And yes you are right.  The CPC constantly hit Trudeau as not as advertised, focused on his snowboard instructor and teacher experience.  This puts egg on their face.  Scheer has been trying to show that he is not just a career politician and had real world experience.

Hard to hit Trudeau on the work experience front when Scheer appears to have even less.


----------



## Infanteer (30 Sep 2019)

If Canadians don't care about one guy dancing around with his face painted black about two decades ago, they certainly won't care about another guy claiming to have been an insurance salesman.... :rofl:


----------



## brihard (30 Sep 2019)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> If Canadians don't care about one guy dancing around with his face painted black about two decades ago, they certainly won't care about another guy claiming to have been an insurance salesman.... :rofl:



Sheer’s got the trick though- if you’re gonna Walt, Walt small.


----------



## dapaterson (30 Sep 2019)

Interesting piece at Macleans about the urban / rural divide, looking at Conservative / Liberal parties, using population density of ridings as a rural / urban proxy.

TL;DR: The fifty ridings with the most dense populations are all projected Liberal or NDP; at the other end of the spectrum, the leaning is heavily conservative.

https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/338canada-the-urban-rural-divide-right-along-party-lines/


----------



## stellarpanther (30 Sep 2019)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> If Canadians don't care about one guy dancing around with his face painted black about two decades ago, they certainly won't care about another guy claiming to have been an insurance salesman.... :rofl:



I really don't care about Trudeau's black face issues years ago because even though I think it was stupid, I don't think anyone things he is/was a racist.  I know of other people who did that back then an it wasn't an issue.  Scheer on the other hand may have broken a law which is a big deal to me, especially because he kept the lie going.


----------



## FJAG (30 Sep 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I really don't care about Trudeau's black face issues years ago because even though I think it was stupid, I don't think anyone things he is/was a racist.  I know of other people who did that back then an it wasn't an issue.  Scheer on the other hand may have broken a law which is a big deal to me, especially because he kept the lie going.



Since you seem to be prepared to give Trudeau a bye on multiple acts of racist dress up, the Norman affair, the SNC Lavalin affair, multiple instances of lying and promising to put in place multiple years of $20 billion deficits, you'll have to excuse me if I get a bit technical here.

The Saskatchewan Insurance Act provides that:



> 419(1) No agent shall engage in the insurance brokerage business or hold himself
> out as an insurance broker unless he is specifically authorized by his licence to
> engage in the insurance brokerage business.



The purpose of the Act is to protect the public from unauthorized individuals acting or representing themselves as brokers in their dealing with clients/the public. There have been no allegations by anyone that he acted as a broker or held himself out as a broker while employed in that business. My understanding is that at the time he worked as an employee of a properly authorized broker for a short period of time.

Adding the statement that you were once a broker, to a political resume is not holding yourself out as a "current broker". If the allegation is true it's, as previously indicated, a walting but not a criminal offence. It's not right for him to have done that but it doesn't rise above a low level of aggrandisement and falls far below what Trudeau has and is doing (Can't recall how many times I did blackface - yeah, right).

We all tend to give a bit more leeway to the guy that represents the party we want in power but in this case it seems to me that congratulations are in order to the LPC for having convinced at least one voter buy into the slight-of-hand shell game they are running here to deflect from their boy's gross shortcomings.

op:


----------



## Good2Golf (30 Sep 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I really don't care about Trudeau's black face issues years ago because even though I think it was stupid, I don't think anyone things he is/was a racist.  I know of other people who did that back then an it wasn't an issue.  Scheer on the other hand may have broken a law which is a big deal to me, especially because he kept the lie going.



Exactly!

Federal laws, such as the Canadian Conflict of Interests Acts, particularly Where politicians are involved, should be adhered to not only for the legal requirement to do so, but also to reinforce the influence and accountability that holds politicians to a higher standard...especially Section 9. :nod:

Regards
G2G


----------



## stellarpanther (30 Sep 2019)

FJAG said:
			
		

> Since you seem to be prepared to give Trudeau a bye on multiple acts of racist dress up, the Norman affair, the SNC Lavalin affair, multiple instances of lying and promising to put in place multiple years of $20 billion deficits, you'll have to excuse me if I get a bit technical here.
> 
> The Saskatchewan Insurance Act provides that:
> 
> ...



While I don't agree with the Blackface thing he did, I don't think he is racist at all.  Not sure about Scheer but even the other party leaders have come out saying he is not racist.  I honestly don't ever recall especially back in the 90's, anyone every saying that was racist. I've heard a lot of people express similar thoughts.  I think a big problem in this country is that we often look at how Americans view things and then make decisions based on that.  I'm having trouble explaining that one better but hopefully it's clear.


----------



## FSTO (30 Sep 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I really don't care about Trudeau's black face issues years ago because even though I think it was stupid, I don't think anyone things he is/was a racist.



The professor on this podcast makes some really good points about blackface in Canada. I don't agree with all of her points but she has opened my eyes to the extent of this phenomenon within Canada.


----------



## FJAG (1 Oct 2019)

FSTO said:
			
		

> The professor on this podcast makes some really good points about blackface in Canada. I don't agree with all of her points but she has opened my eyes to the extent of this phenomenon within Canada.



Which podcast would that be?

 :cheers:


----------



## Jarnhamar (1 Oct 2019)

This

https://youtu.be/Do4r2kU2oB4 

Compared to Scheer allegedly suggesting he sold insurance or something?  Which to you is worse than what Trudeau with the SNC BS?

You're going to vote for Trudeau no matter what he does.  :


----------



## FSTO (1 Oct 2019)

FJAG said:
			
		

> Which podcast would that be?
> 
> :cheers:



Whoops! Senior moment!
https://www.canadalandshow.com/podcast/296-two-centuries-of-blackface-in-canada/


----------



## Remius (1 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> This
> 
> https://youtu.be/Do4r2kU2oB4
> 
> ...




Sounds a lot like the same thing we are seeing south of the border only on different sides of the political spectrum.  

This is what happens when polarization takes hold.


----------



## The Bread Guy (1 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Compared to Scheer allegedly suggesting he sold insurance or something?  Which to you is worse than what Trudeau with the SNC BS?


Just because one's worse doesn't mean the other's OK.  

I _suspect_ there'd be more than a few "stolen valour" themed memes out there if PMJT was spotted with the same level of discrepancy on his resume -- like if he was a teacher's aide when claiming to be a licensed teacher.


----------



## Remius (1 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Compared to Scheer allegedly suggesting he sold insurance or something?  Which to you is worse than what Trudeau with the SNC BS?



A lot of people are so detached from the SNC thing that they either don't care because it does not affect them or they truly don't have a grasp of it.

But people understand what lying on a resume is when applying for a job.


----------



## 211RadOp (1 Oct 2019)

> *West Nova PPC candidate drops name from ballot, pointing to Bernier’s ‘failed leadership’ *
> 
> Graeme Benjamin
> 
> ...



More at http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/politics/west-nova-ppc-candidate-drops-name-from-ballot-pointing-to-berniers-failed-leadership/ar-AAI4LUO?ocid=ientp


----------



## FSTO (1 Oct 2019)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Just because one's worse doesn't mean the other's OK.
> 
> I _suspect_ there'd be more than a few "stolen valour" themed memes out there if PMJT was spotted with the same level of discrepancy on his resume -- like if he was a teacher's aide when claiming to be a licensed teacher.



True. In this world of instant online research (not all of it legit) why would a person running for office ever think of enhancing their resume? There is no good reason for it and just sets you up for ridicule.

So Scheer never had a "profession" before joining politics. Big deal, he joined as a staffer at a young age and was able to make a career of it. Trudeau, at least had name recognition when he jumped into politics, but his resume is just about as thin as Scheer's if you really look at it.


----------



## mariomike (1 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> But people understand what lying on a resume is when applying for a job.



It's been pointed out to CAF applicants on here.


----------



## Remius (1 Oct 2019)

FSTO said:
			
		

> True. In this world of instant online research (not all of it legit) why would a person running for office ever think of enhancing their resume? There is no good reason for it and just sets you up for ridicule.
> 
> So Scheer never had a "profession" before joining politics. Big deal, he joined as a staffer at a young age and was able to make a career of it. Trudeau, at least had name recognition when he jumped into politics, but his resume is just about as thin as Scheer's if you really look at it.



The conservatives have been making a big deal about Trudeau's previous employment for years.  

Hard for Scheer to claim he's just like us when he never was. He's benn trying hard to show he isn't a career politician.

Hippocrytes on both sides.


----------



## Journeyman (1 Oct 2019)

I'll offer the same solution as last election -- leave Parliament in recess (unpaid), and we'll revisit every 6 months or so and see if we need any more legislation.  op:


----------



## The Bread Guy (1 Oct 2019)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I'll offer the same solution as last election -- leave Parliament in recess (unpaid), and we'll revisit every 6 months or so and see if we need any more legislation.  op:


Like Northern Ireland since January of 2017 - only their members seem to still be getting paid - albeit a bit less than before.


----------



## brihard (1 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> For sure.  And choosing an unelectable leader with links to an unpopular provincial premier who promised one thing and did another.
> 
> Apply that to whatever side you want
> 
> But one side in the election is being far more successful at defining the other side.



Indeed. With everything the CPC have had in their magazine to fire off at the LPC in this election, it should have been theirs to lose. If come the day after we haven’t changed governments, it rests pretty much entirely on the dumpster fire that was the CPC leadership selection, and the drab and uninspiring result.

At least it paves the way for someone better...


----------



## The Bread Guy (1 Oct 2019)

A bit of what Team Blue is promising - highlights mine ...


> Today, Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer detailed his plan for delivering strong Conservative leadership on the world stage.
> 
> On the same day the Munk debate on foreign policy was supposed to take place before Justin Trudeau forced its cancellation, Scheer shared details around four key pillars of his foreign policy plan which include:
> 
> ...


More details @ link & in attached 3 pager - with a fair number of military commitments there as well. A couple of stand-outs for me in the 3 pager ...


> ... Provide military defensive aid to Ukraine’s military and restore access to Canada’s RADARSAT-2 data to Ukraine.
> 
> Advocate at the United Nations for Canadian leadership in a peacekeeping mission to secure Ukraine’s borders and expand Operation UNIFIER, Canada’s military training mission in Ukraine.


Kinda hard leading a peacekeeping mission when you've already picked a side - sorta like if the Russians offered to lead such a mission in Ukraine.  op:


----------



## FJAG (1 Oct 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> All of those things have gotten, and continue to get, plenty of attention.
> 
> We shall see in three weeks if we do in fact deserve better. Better alternative options would not have hurt.



The last time an electorate was faced with two bad choices, too many of the proper thinking voters stayed home and as a result Trump squeaked into office. Every once in a while you have to swallow your bile and just vote for the least offensive choice. BUT. You have to vote.

 :clubinhand:


----------



## brihard (1 Oct 2019)

I realized we got sidetracked here and inadvertantly cluttered the re:Veterans thread- can a mod chop the digression over to the election thread please?


----------



## MilEME09 (1 Oct 2019)

If we see Trudeau loose, I wonder how the liberal party as a whole will react at the next convention? would the majority still support him or would they oust him?


----------



## Remius (1 Oct 2019)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> If we see Trudeau loose, I wonder how the liberal party as a whole will react at the next convention? would the majority still support him or would they oust him?



If he loses he's done.  If he wins a minority he'll be hanging by a thread and might not run in the next one.  Depends on who is waiting in the wings on both sides.


----------



## Remius (1 Oct 2019)

Global has a good piece here on the crappy choices we have.

https://globalnews.ca/news/5948569/ipsos-poll-canada-election-undecided-voters/


----------



## The Bread Guy (1 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> ... If he wins a minority he'll be hanging by a thread and might not run in the next one ...


I'll go a step further and predict that if he wins a minority, the blades will be razor honed and out October 22, with leadership hopefuls circling like sharks around the bloody chum.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (1 Oct 2019)

https://torontosun.com/news/national/election-2019/gunter-trudeaus-camping-pledge-is-peak-privilege



> GUNTER: Trudeau's camping pledge is peak privilege
> 
> Now Justin Trudeau’s privilege truly is showing.
> 
> ...



More at link.

If he gets in again, they'll be lots more people living in tents.

And they won't be camping on the taxpayers dime.


----------



## ModlrMike (1 Oct 2019)

Which ever of the two larger parties win may require the other to form a workable government. Neither the NDP, Greens, nor Bloc are in favour of oil development, which with the Liberals buying TMX, and the Conservatives wanting a resource corridor would seem to be a show stopper for either of them.


----------



## ModlrMike (1 Oct 2019)

Fishbone Jones said:
			
		

> If he gets in again, they'll be lots more people living in tents.
> 
> And they won't be camping on the taxpayers dime.



Actually, they will. Where do you think social service costs come from?


----------



## Cloud Cover (1 Oct 2019)

“But Trudeau’s proposal to spend $150 million a year on “bursaries” for 75,000 low-income families to spend four days annually in a provincial or national park...”

- taking a page out of Strength Through Joy.


----------



## brihard (1 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Same.  They will not be getting a majority.  A minority situation keeps them a bit more honest but only because they have no choice.



Unfortunately at this point we are far from being able to rule out a majority. It’s well within the margin of error for seat projections.


----------



## Jarnhamar (1 Oct 2019)

Imagine what the CAF, the Police forces and Canada in general would look like if we stopped letting figures in positions of authority get away disgusting behavior.

Yea but he was young and we all do stupid things when we're young.
Yea but he didn't know any better.
Yea but it was 20 years ago.
Yea but it wasn't really illegal.
Yea but he feels really bad and said sorry.


----------



## suffolkowner (1 Oct 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Unfortunately at this point we are far from being able to rule out a majority. It’s well within the margin of error for seat projections.



I agree that a Liberal majority is easily possible but I still think that the Conservative vote is probably being undersold and the vote split on the left has to help the Conservatives. I can see any close Liberal wins from the last election going Conservative this time


----------



## Cloud Cover (1 Oct 2019)

No chief of police, senior officer, senior civil servant, “c” level occupant of any political, institutional, and probably even publicly traded corporation would get away with it.


----------



## mariomike (1 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Imagine what the CAF, the Police forces and Canada in general would look like if we stopped letting figures in positions of authority get away disgusting behavior.



Brown-face / Black-face is bad behavior.

How about resumes?
https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ACYBGNSKy-sR7ka84I_JPRvLFWthkndEHw%3A1569962576663&ei=ULqTXYuZKPCIggejnqSoAw&q=scheer+resume&oq=scheer+resume&gs_l=psy-ab.12...0.0..55519...0.0..0.0.0.......0......gws-wiz.5bVrcU7O5-I&ved=0ahUKEwiLgcWt9vvkAhVwhOAKHSMPCTUQ4dUDCAo#spf=1569962635669


----------



## Jarnhamar (1 Oct 2019)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Brown-face / Black-face is bad behavior.
> 
> How about resumes?
> https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ACYBGNSKy-sR7ka84I_JPRvLFWthkndEHw%3A1569962576663&ei=ULqTXYuZKPCIggejnqSoAw&q=scheer+resume&oq=scheer+resume&gs_l=psy-ab.12...0.0..55519...0.0..0.0.0.......0......gws-wiz.5bVrcU7O5-I&ved=0ahUKEwiLgcWt9vvkAhVwhOAKHSMPCTUQ4dUDCAo#spf=1569962635669



Grasping at straws buddy. Not even the nice thick McDicks milkshake straws either  

Do you know what Trudeau was doing around the same time? Groping women at parties then apologizing when he found out they were somebodies and not nobodies. 

Is groping women _bad behavior_ too?


----------



## mariomike (1 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Grasping at straws buddy.



Guess so, buddy. Are you ok with Mr. Scheer and his resume?


----------



## Jarnhamar (1 Oct 2019)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Guess so, buddy. Are you ok with Mr. Scheer and his resume?



Okay with? I think it was a dumb thing to do. Maybe he fudged it, maybe he flat out lied about it.

Compared to the shit Trudeau has done? Light years apart.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (1 Oct 2019)

Brian Lilley puts trudeau in a nutshell.

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/lilley-trudeau-should-choose-truth-for-a-change?fbclid=IwAR3batoDgAEser75voFlORs448YZ5UxAHXhGJfRwYEi5YHGkTT8KLDwElv0

LILLEY: Trudeau should choose truth for a change



> Even in Montreal, Justin Trudeau couldn’t help but campaign against Ontario’s premier.
> 
> The PM was announcing a new plan to plant 2 billion trees over the next 10 years when he took his latest shot at Doug Ford.
> 
> ...


----------



## Retired AF Guy (1 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> If he loses he's done.  If he wins a minority he'll be hanging by a thread and might not run in the next one.  Depends on who is waiting in the wings on both sides.



Agreed. Liberals eat their own.


----------



## brihard (1 Oct 2019)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Agreed. Liberals eat their own.



Liberals, like any party, reward forward movement. Stop moving the party forward? See ya. The sun rises and sets on political leaders of any stripe. One of the two contender parties is likely gonna be looking for a new boss before the year is out.


----------



## stellarpanther (1 Oct 2019)

How can anyone even remotely want a guy (Scheer) with next to zero experience working in the real world to be our leader.? He has no idea what it's like in real life.  Trudeau had a privileged upbringing but he shouldn't be faulted because of that.  He at least had several jobs before going into politics and please nobody tell me being an art teacher isn't a real job.  You don't need to be a bricklayer or Truck driver to have been a hard worker.


----------



## mariomike (1 Oct 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> He has no idea what it's like in real life.



Probably going to be a lot of back and forth over who is most, or least, qualified.

As far as I can tell, to get into politics in this country, one must be a Canadian citizen ( don't have to be born here ), over the age of 18, and have a pulse.


----------



## Loachman (1 Oct 2019)

There is yet hope...

https://election.ctvnews.ca/the-greta-effect-nanos-survey-suggests-young-voters-turning-on-trudeau-1.4616701

The Greta effect? Nanos survey suggests young voters turning on Trudeau

Ryan Flanagan CTVNews.ca Writer

Published Monday, September 30, 2019 10:29AM EDT

<snip>

TORONTO - Support for Justin Trudeau among young voters appears to have plummeted in the wake of the Liberal leader’s meeting with teenage environmental activist Greta Thunberg and the release of his party’s platform.

Polling data from Nanos Research shows that the proportion of voters aged 18 to 29 who cite Trudeau as their preferred prime minister fell from nearly 35 per cent to a little more than 24 per cent within 24 hours.

<snip>

Combining all age groups, the gap between Trudeau’s personal popularity and Scheer’s is now the smallest it has been since the campaign began.

Nanos registered support for Trudeau as preferred prime minister as 28.26 per cent, compared to 27.99 per cent for Scheer. Another 18 per cent of voters are undecided on this score.

<snip>

https://o.canada.com/news/politics/election-2019/john-ivison-poll-shows-more-people-are-starting-to-believe-scheer-really-could-become-pm/wcm/30c30d35-8511-4933-83b7-7ff964fcee8c

John Ivison: Poll shows more people are starting to believe Scheer really could become PM

Scheer is rolling out policy likely to find favour with people not as disposed as Trudeau to using Canadian taxpayers’ money to save the world

John Ivison	October 1, 2019

<snip>

Alberta premier Jason Kenney introduced him from the back of a pick-up truck in Edmonton last Saturday and one comment in particular resonated with the crowd. “This is a prime minister we will never have to be embarrassed about. He won’t be apologizing all the time,” Kenney said.

Scheer’s strategy has been to focus on the concerns of people who might vote Conservative and leave the Liberals, NDP and Greens to fight over issues like climate change. The calculation was made that more votes would be gained campaigning against the carbon tax than would be lost.

Fortunately for the Conservatives, affordability concerns are clear and present for the more than half of Canadians who live paycheque to paycheque. A new poll by BDO Canada suggests 53 per cent of Canadians have little disposable income, 57 per cent are carrying credit card debt and 38 per cent of 35-54 year olds have no retirement savings.

<snip>

But he is rolling out policy on a daily basis that is likely to find favour with people living paycheque to paycheque who may not be as disposed as Justin Trudeau to using Canadian taxpayers’ money to save the world.

<snip>

And, yes, "jobs" - with a student review:

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/malcolm-trudeaus-yearbook-tells-a-bigger-story

MALCOLM: Trudeau's yearbook tells a bigger story

Candice Malcolm	September 30, 2019 

Flipping through the pages of the 2000 and 2001 West Point Grey Academy (WPGA) yearbooks, we see a different side of our progressive prime minister.

The shocking image of Justin Trudeau with painted black skin and a large white turban shows that, as the 29-year-old celebrity son of a former Prime Minister, Trudeau was hardly a serious person, let alone a mature role model or teacher.

The cringe-worthy blackface photo at the Arabian Nights gala fundraiser is just one example. Trudeau’s photo is featured over and over again in the yearbook, smiling and hanging out - looking more like a teenage student than a teacher in his late twenties.

A former student tells me that during Trudeau’s short stint at WPGA, he was the back-up drama teacher, a yearbook instructor, coach of the ultimate frisbee team and he taught French to children in the junior school. Oh, and he helped the school raise hundreds of thousands of dollars through its gala fundraising dinners.

Another student tells me, “he was nice and floated around … not a great teacher though.”

Trudeau’s photo appears no less than a dozen times in each yearbook - more than most students at the small elite private school in the West side of Vancouver.

The only photo that shows Trudeau actually teaching came in the 2000 yearbook, where Trudeau can be seen wearing a traditional Scottish Highlander outfit - a white puffy shirt, knee-high socks and a kilt - reading to children with the caption: “Mr. Trudeau loves teaching French to kindergarten students.”

_*Trudeau has said that he was a math teacher, but there is no mention of Trudeau teaching it at WPGA. The page featuring the school’s Mathcounts competition team lists all the teachers involved. Trudeau’s name is not included.*_

Trudeau is featured very prominently, however, on the school’s ultimate frisbee team page, with three different photos showing Trudeau in wild outfits — hugging and roughhousing with the students. His various costumes included black and white face paint, a big black afro wig, a kilt and a large Mickey Mouse hat.

The team was called the “MadHatters,” and the yearbook includes a poem about the team that describes Trudeau as “a loud-mouthed maniac.”

<snip>

Photographs at link.


----------



## Brad Sallows (1 Oct 2019)

>Are you ok with Mr. Scheer and his resume?

Too funny.  I've seen a lot of resumes.  Resume padding (and lying) is about as small a beer as we've ever been asked to criticize in a potential prime minister.


----------



## Loachman (1 Oct 2019)

http://angusreid.org/election-2019-swing-ridings/

Tight race throwback: In 2015’s closest ridings CPC makes gains, Liberals decline, NDP deflates

October 1, 2019 – With just three weeks until the 43rd Canadian federal election, all eyes are on the leaders as they ready for the official debates on October 7 and 10. The attention of the party campaigns, however, is likely zeroed in on competitive ridings across the country. Every vote is important in what appears to be a close contest.

The latest study from the non-profit Angus Reid Institute examines the 67 closest ridings (20% of all ridings) from the 2015 election. Each was decided by five percentage points or fewer four years ago. By identifying these ridings and sampling exclusively within them, trends emerge that have positive and negative implications for each of the parties.

Overall, among these 67 ridings, the Liberal Party finished with a 9-point advantage in the 2015 election results. Currently, however, the Conservatives now lead vote intention in these ridings by six points.

For the Conservative Party, a marked shift overall, and significant gains in Western Canadian ridings, point to a closer national contest this time around. That said, neither the CPC nor the Liberals can yet claim the upper hand in closely contested Ontario ridings.

For the Liberals, support levels in 20 Quebec swing ridings remain close to that of four years ago, dropping slightly from 29 to 24 per cent. Notably, however, the Bloc Quebecois hold a small lead within these districts, and the CPC are now more competitive, up seven points from 2015.

The trouble for the New Democratic Party is not concentrated in one region, as its support has dwindled most everywhere when it comes to tight 2015 ridings, but the negative trend is most prominent in Quebec. In 2015, the NDP garnered 29 per cent of the vote in the most competitive ridings within that province; the party’s vote intention is now close to just one-third of that.

More Key Findings:

The Liberal Party won 33 ridings by five or fewer points in 2015, garnering 41 per cent of the aggregate vote in those districts. Current vote intention in these same ridings finds Liberal support down to 31 points, with the CPC garnering 35 per cent of the vote, up from the 30 per cent it received last election

Importantly, the Liberals defeated the Conservatives by five or fewer points in 20 electoral districts in 2015, with an aggregate vote advantage of just three points overall. The Conservatives now lead vote intention in these 20 ridings by a massive 15 points

In Western Canada, 17 ridings made for close races in 2015. Eight are currently held by the Liberals, five by the NDP and four by the CPC. The CPC advantage was one point in 2015 in these 17 ridings and now stands at 21 points

<snip>


----------



## mariomike (1 Oct 2019)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> I've seen a lot of resumes.



Congratulations.

All I know about resumes is what CAF applicants are told about being honest.


----------



## Jarnhamar (1 Oct 2019)

> The PM was announcing a new plan to plant 2 billion trees




_The *Great Oxidation Event *was a time that Earth's atmosphere and the shallow ocean experienced a rise in oxygen, around 2.4 billion years ago during the Paleoproterozoic era. Geological, isotopic, and chemical evidence suggests that biologically induced molecular oxygen started to accumulate in Earth's atmosphere and *changed Earth's atmosphere from a weakly reducing atmosphere to an oxidizing atmosphere,  causing almost all life on Earth to go extinct.*. The causes of the event remain unclear.
-Wikipedia_

 :Tin-Foil-Hat:


----------



## Brad Sallows (1 Oct 2019)

"All I know about resumes is what CAF applicants are told about being honest."

Pretty much every person is told to be honest at some point in life.  Doesn't seem to take with everybody.

"Yeah, but Scheer might have lied about a few months' employment as an insurance agent" is a weak comeback to PM JT's record in office.

Policy is probably a better ground on which to brag or criticize.


----------



## Loachman (1 Oct 2019)

http://angusreid.org/election-2019-centre-left-scuffle/

Centre-Left Scuffle: Conservatives maintain lead as Liberals struggle to lock in vacillating progressives

October 1, 2019 – An inability so far in this 43rd election campaign for the incumbent Liberal Party to lock in left of centre voters is giving the Conservatives the widest lead they have seen since the writs were drawn September 11th.

The latest public opinion poll from the non-profit Angus Reid Institute shows the CPC seven points ahead of Justin Trudeau’s party (37% to 30%). But digging deeper beyond these topline findings reveals the Prime Minister’s biggest headache is less likely to be Andrew Scheer than Elizabeth May, Jagmeet Singh and Yves-François Blanchett.

In a week that witnessed climate strikes across the country, the three leaders representing the most significant threats to the Liberal vote have had plenty of ammunition to play to environmental purists and attack Trudeau on his environmental record.

Still, voter uncertainty, especially among identified NDP and Green offers continuing – if not frustrating – flashes of hope for the party seeking re-election. The Liberals could win back progressive voters, especially outside Quebec. But they remain stymied in attempts to turn this jelly-like base into a more solid mould.
More Key Findings:

Uncertainty in terms of vote intention on October 21 is highest among NDP and Green voters. Only one-quarter of those who intend to support each party say they are absolutely certain they will do so. This, compared to seven-in-ten (68%) CPC supporters who say their support will not waver

The NDP, which has remained stubbornly in a distant third place appears to be emerging as the top second choice on among uncommitted voters. In fact, half of uncommitted Liberals (54%) and Green supporters (53%) say the NDP is their plan B

Check of battleground provinces reveals Green Party up slightly up in British Columbia (+3), CPC up in key battleground of Ontario (+3), and Bloc Quebecois making gains in all important Quebec (+4)


----------



## YZT580 (2 Oct 2019)

What on earth does a yearbook instructor do?  Not a single serious lesson taught except possibly kindergarten french and even in that he had to dress-up.  I fail to see the connection between the Scottish kilt and the subject matter though.


----------



## Loachman (2 Oct 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> How can anyone even remotely want a guy (Scheer) with next to zero experience working in the real world to be our leader.? He has no idea what it's like in real life.



His parents had nowhere near the wealth of Trudeau. Andrew Scheer, lengthy non-political career or not, can relate much better to the average citizen.



			
				stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Trudeau had a privileged upbringing but he shouldn't be faulted because of that.



I do not fault him for that.

I fault him for his actions and behaviours.



			
				stellarpanther said:
			
		

> He at least had several jobs before going into politics and please nobody tell me being an art teacher isn't a real job.  You don't need to be a bricklayer or Truck driver to have been a hard worker.



See my previous post and contemplate how hard he "worked".

And he's never, ever had to live pay cheque to pay cheque.


----------



## FSTO (2 Oct 2019)

If the conservative numbers hold up over the weekend, expect to see the LPC go Operation Overlord on demonizing Scheer, Ford and Kenney. Mark my words it should be epic.

How would a conservative minority with NDP support look to the Canadian public? The crazies on both sides sidelined? Could it happen? One wonders.


----------



## The Bread Guy (2 Oct 2019)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Par for course. In this case a reporter for a right-leaning think tank was refused access  access to public rallies and refused to give a reason.
> 
> Article Link


And in this case, a reporter for a right-leaning media outlet was refused access to a public event - can't tell if he was given a reason.


> It took two police forces on Monday to get the far-right Rebel Media escorted as far as possible from Andrew Scheer.
> 
> The expulsion began with an RCMP officer, part of the Conservative leader’s personal security detail, gently nudging Rebel News correspondent David Menzies away from the gaggle of media and out into a corridor as reporters awaited Scheer’s arrival.
> 
> ...


----------



## mariomike (2 Oct 2019)

FSTO said:
			
		

> If the conservative numbers hold up over the weekend, expect to see the LPC go Operation Overlord on demonizing Scheer, Ford and Kenney.



Even without the "demonizing", Toronto remembers Ford Nation. As a matter of public safety, council had to remove their power to govern the city in a state of emergency.

Doug was booed at the Raptors parade, while the PM and mayor were cheered.



> Global News
> 
> September 30, 2019
> 
> ...


----------



## SeaKingTacco (2 Oct 2019)

FSTO said:
			
		

> If the conservative numbers hold up over the weekend, expect to see the LPC go Operation Overlord on demonizing Scheer, Ford and Kenney. Mark my words it should be epic.
> 
> How would a conservative minority with NDP support look to the Canadian public? The crazies on both sides sidelined? Could it happen? One wonders.



Soldiers. With guns. In the streets. Spraying crude oil on everything. Especially the whales. For the love of god, think of the whales!

Does that sound about right for the next Liberal commercial?


----------



## FSTO (2 Oct 2019)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Soldiers. With guns. In the streets. Spraying crude oil on everything. Especially the whales. For the love of god, think of the whales!
> 
> Does that sound about right for the next Liberal commercial?



I think it needs an image of the trifecta of evil water boarding Greta Thunberg to get the full effect.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (2 Oct 2019)

Who is Greta waterboarding?


----------



## mariomike (2 Oct 2019)

She seems to have an effect on some,
https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ACYBGNSjrGRHVEcvcUyNGXkh7c-VSuWuhA%3A1570026383399&ei=j7OUXeT0F8jq-gTpi67wBw&q=thunberg+men&oq=thunberg+men&gs_l=psy-ab.12...0.0..76173...0.0..0.0.0.......0......gws-wiz.GufRb8E3yNA&ved=0ahUKEwik-PqG5P3kAhVItZ4KHemFC34Q4dUDCAo#spf=1570026463334

And our Federal election,



> Federal leaders invoke Greta Thunberg to sell their own climate change plans
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/climate-change-federal-party-leaders-greta-thunberg-1.5295526
> Canada's federal party candidates couldn't help but capitalize on the climate activist's emotional address to sell their own strategies.


----------



## Jarnhamar (2 Oct 2019)

YZT580 said:
			
		

> What on earth does a yearbook instructor do?  Not a single serious lesson taught except possibly kindergarten french and even in that he had to dress-up.  I fail to see the connection between the Scottish kilt and the subject matter though.



Thats amazing. A year book instructor lol

So basically he screwed around all day, goofed off, was given the least amount of responsibility possible for a "staff member", acted more like a student and was known for playing dress up.


----------



## Jarnhamar (2 Oct 2019)

This isn't a picture of Gerald Butts Meeting with the upcoming Debate Moderator, Althia Raj from the Huffington post, is it?. 

https://www.spencerfernando.com/2019/09/30/photo-gerald-butts-meets-with-upcoming-debate-moderator/

If it is, why would Gerald Butts want to meet with a debate moderator? Is Butts giving her the ol' Jody Wilson-Raybould treatment?

If that's her that doesn't seem like a conflict of interest one bit.


----------



## ModlrMike (2 Oct 2019)

I saw this a few days ago on FB. Even accounting for Mr Fernando's admitted bias, if this is true, it begs some very big questions.


----------



## Remius (2 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> This isn't a picture of Gerald Butts Meeting with the upcoming Debate Moderator, Althia Raj from the Huffington post, is it?.
> 
> https://www.spencerfernando.com/2019/09/30/photo-gerald-butts-meets-with-upcoming-debate-moderator/
> 
> ...



Warren Kinsella's take on it.

http://warrenkinsella.com/2019/09/debates-debate-moderators-and-those-who-seek-to-influence-them/


----------



## Blackadder1916 (2 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> This isn't a picture of Gerald Butts Meeting with the upcoming Debate Moderator, Althia Raj from the Huffington post, is it?.



This really riles me right up!  How dare he!  What an ignorant SOB!  This proves the downfall of civilization.  If Mr Butts had any sense of decency or etiquette, he would immediately put down his mobile phone and converse with the individual across the table.  Oh, there's something inappropriate about the actual meeting?  Kinsella has the proper take on it.  It won't matter to most of the electorate and will only provide a ready excuse to supporters of Scheer if he tanks the debate.


----------



## Jarnhamar (2 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Warren Kinsella's take on it.
> 
> http://warrenkinsella.com/2019/09/debates-debate-moderators-and-those-who-seek-to-influence-them/



In typical fashion, the first comment on the page:
"The source of the photo might be the most interesting part of this".



			
				Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> If Mr Butts had any sense of decency or etiquette, he would immediately put down his mobile phone and converse with the individual across the table.


some bad bevahior right there.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Oct 2019)

You are getting an insight into the next four (forty?) years, if the grits win. Their arrogance and indifference to the common Canadian will only manifest itself further, until we have no recourse but to submit or leave.

Trudeau has centralized power to the PMO and currently does whatever he wants. Without repercussions. He demonizes and fires anyone not in total lockstep with his mantra. He is untouchable. To give him a second mandate will only bolster his ego into thinking his vision as monarch, for a borderless welfare state, is his destiny.

This election is not about politics. It is about the future of Canada as a self sustaining democracy or a socialist hell like Brazil.

May, Bernier and Singh are a wasted vote. None can form a solid government. This is a vote between dictatorship on the grit side and democracy on the tory side. Vote accordingly.

 :2c:


----------



## FSTO (2 Oct 2019)

So this popped up in my neighbourhood today. (Ottawa Centre)


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Oct 2019)

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/19/opinion/sunday/trudeau-brownface-canada.html?fbclid=IwAR0-P-g5h-X7I0Apms8vA9bfMyrGYosWc0qIRH_FlWRqkiFXHY7TkVKgD1E

The Downfall of Canada’s Dreamy Boyfriend  - The New York Times



> For Americans, Justin Trudeau’s undoing has been swift. For Canadians, it has been a long time coming.
> 
> By Melissa J. Gismondi
> 
> ...


.


----------



## mariomike (2 Oct 2019)

Personally, I don't vote for politicians as role models. Mine are mostly in their 70's, or dead. 

As someone who has always been a non-partisan voter, and after more than ten years of retirement, what I am more interested in is their answers to these questions,

https://mroo.org/adm/documents/Federal-Party-Positions-2015.pdf


----------



## stellarpanther (2 Oct 2019)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> And in this case, a reporter for a right-leaning media outlet was refused access to a public event - can't tell if he was given a reason.



Mark my words, if this guy manages to win, he will be just as bad as Trump and Ford.  I hope the voters see through him.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (2 Oct 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Mark my words, if this guy manages to win, he will be just as bad as Trump and Ford.  I hope the voters see through him.



Ok, that is just batshit crazy talk.

We have PM currently who refuses to give a straight answer to any question that he is asked; acted unethically, if not outright broke the law on SNC Lavalin; appears to have only a cursory grasp of the issues facing Canada...and you are worried that Scheer might be as bad as Trump?

Are entirely immune to irony or are you just trolling?

Scheer is about as exciting as vanilla ice cream. Yet, that might just be enough, right now.


----------



## Brad Sallows (2 Oct 2019)

>just as bad as Trump 

Yeah.  I'm really getting that vibe right now.

>and Ford

Which one?


----------



## SeaKingTacco (2 Oct 2019)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >just as bad as Trump
> 
> Yeah.  I'm really getting that vibe right now.
> 
> ...



Probably Henry. But could be Gerald. Who knows?


----------



## brihard (3 Oct 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Mark my words, if this guy manages to win, he will be just as bad as Trump and Ford.  I hope the voters see through him.



That’s silly nonsense. Trump is in a league all of his own. There is nothing quite like him among first world democracies, though similar populist firebrands with a fiery presentation and a less-than-deft hand on the wheel of state exist elsewhere such as Brazil and the Philippines.

Ford is garden variety unimpressive populist, but not particularly remarkable.

Scheer’s social views are a bit gross to me, I have little time for evangelicals who have shown a desire to restrict the rights of others due to their personal religious views. He’s an uninspiring leadership candidate, and against a better PM he wouldn’t stand a chance. But, if he is elected, I have no fear he’ll do anything too outlandish, hysterical fear mongering to the contrary.

Whoever wins this, we will as a consequence see Canada’s normal measured and incremental legislative drift in the direction of the victorious party, but there will be little to nothing earth shattering. We have a strong constitution, an independent judiciary that is quick to curb legislative overreach, and an upper house in our legislature that enjoys a reasonable amount of independence, and which has shown itself willing to rework legislation coming up from the House if it’s going to cause problems.

With a little luck, whichever government is elected will fail to achieve a majority, helping to further temper any inclinations to excess. Our checks and balances are pretty decent.

Wild cries about the peril our country is in and how it will be the end of Canada as we know it if x or y happens is just white noise.


----------



## The Bread Guy (3 Oct 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Mark my words, if this guy manages to win, he will be just as bad as Trump and Ford.  I hope the voters see through him.


Trump?  Please - not even _close_ to being in the same ballpark. 

Ford?  I don't like some of what he's doing, and awaiting the bigger picture, but he's also backtracked a bit on some stuff that went a bit further than some would have liked.


----------



## OldSolduer (3 Oct 2019)

I would reckon Scheer would appoint adult cabinet ministers rather than the gang JT appointed.


----------



## The Bread Guy (3 Oct 2019)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> I would reckon Scheer would appoint adult cabinet ministers rather than the gang JT appointed.


The odds may improve, but never any guarantees of all cabinet ministers being great, no matter what colour the team jerseys, right?


----------



## brihard (3 Oct 2019)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> I would reckon Scheer would appoint adult cabinet ministers rather than the gang JT appointed.



That’s an interesting take. Who out of the current cabinet do you think fails the ‘adult’ test? By and large I don’t think the cabinet has been much of the problem here, and there are some individuals with some compelling experience in a few roles.


----------



## mariomike (3 Oct 2019)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> The odds may improve, but never any guarantees of all cabinet ministers being great, no matter what colour the team jerseys, right?



When it comes to politicians, it seems some can be remarkably tolerant - if the colour of the team jersey is correct.


----------



## YZT580 (3 Oct 2019)

I am more hopeful that a change in party will get us away from a very dangerous affiliation with China.


----------



## Journeyman (3 Oct 2019)

Fishbone Jones said:
			
		

> Trudeau has centralized power to the PMO and currently does whatever he wants. Without repercussions. He demonizes and fires anyone not in total lockstep with his mantra. He is untouchable. To give him a second mandate will only bolster his ego....


Yep, those are pretty terrible attributes for any elected leader.  Who could support such an abysmal human being?  op:


----------



## Infanteer (3 Oct 2019)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Yep, those are pretty terrible attributes for any elected leader.  Who could support such an abysmal human being?  op:



Hey, I see what you did there....


----------



## QV (3 Oct 2019)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Yep, those are pretty terrible attributes for any elected leader.  Who could support such an abysmal human being?  op:



Nice reach.  Since we are comparing, at least Mueller & Co. were allowed to finish and AG William Barr and US Attorney John Durham are on their way to getting to the bottom of things, meanwhile JWR was obstructed then fired and the RCMP took an election break.      

There are a lot of embarrassing things for both countries, but for very different reasons.


----------



## Remius (3 Oct 2019)

QV said:
			
		

> Nice reach.  Since we are comparing, at least Mueller & Co. were allowed to finish and AG William Barr and US Attorney John Durham are on their way to getting to the bottom of things, meanwhile JWR was obstructed then fired and the RCMP took an election break.
> 
> There are a lot of embarrassing things for both countries, but for very different reasons.



Nah, he hit the nail on the head.


----------



## Remius (3 Oct 2019)

So, not sure if anyone watched last night's debate.

The clear winner was the Bloc leader.  He handled everything quite well and even got some good punches in on Scheer (he was weak on a lot of things but the language barrier may have been a factor)and Trudeau.  I can see why he went after Scheer especially as I figure he is competing for rural Quebec votes.    I think the return of the Bloc is a an interesting turn I would not have predicted. 

Scheer was gangbanged by everyone but that could mean one of two things or both.  

1. There may already be a deal hatched between the LPC and the NDP if a minority situation happens.

2. Scheer is starting to be perceived as a front runner

I have been watching the poll tracker the last week and we can see the LPC dipping (although not by huge amounts) and the CPC was rising by the same increments the LPC was dropping.  Note the Bloc have made significant gains and apparently those gains are where they count towards more seats. 

Today though we still see the LPC down by their usual amount but the CPC took a bit of a sharper drop 0.3 as opposed to the steady 0.1 gains they were making.  

Still statistically unimportant in the overall picture but there was a trend upward for the CPC.

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/

I'll be curious to see how the debate and this latest two plane debacle will play out.


----------



## Mister Donut (3 Oct 2019)

I'm usually apolitical, but I'll be voting for the Cons primarily for two reasons:

The filthy communists want to take my guns, and they gave $10 mil to Khadr.  

Not to mention the Blackface thing, the SNC Lavalin scandal, and importing hundreds, if not thousands of un-vetted terrorists.

I guess there are more than two reasons.


----------



## brihard (3 Oct 2019)

Mister Donut said:
			
		

> and importing hundreds, if not thousands of un-vetted terrorists.



What in the hell are you going on about?


----------



## SeaKingTacco (3 Oct 2019)

I would rather the party leaders focus on debating substantive policy issues, but I have to admit that the "camping gear and costumes" quip about Trudeau's second plane is pretty funny.

I would tend to agree with your assessment of Scheer and the Conservatives now being seen as a threat. This puts the Liberals in a bind as they are fighting a two front war. Pivot too far left and they lose the blue liberals to the conservatives. Pivot too far right and the NDP/ Greens eat their lunch- although the liberals may have already calculated they can make deal with one or both in a minority situation to keep them in power.


----------



## Remius (3 Oct 2019)

Mister Donut said:
			
		

> I'm usually apolitical, but I'll be voting for the Cons primarily for two reasons:
> 
> The filthy communists want to take my guns, and they gave $10 mil to Khadr.
> 
> ...



Glad you are voting.  

Not sure I agree with all of your reasons.  Anyone voting against the LPC based on Trudeau's hypocrisy and less than honest way of doing things is well within reason.  Although not a voting factor for me, I sympathise with gun owners and can see why they would vote CPC.  As far as the Khadr thing is concerned, it was a problem that predated the current government and they got stuck with it.  I won't rehash that as we have quite a thread on that.    Not sure what you mean about your last thing about importing terrorists.

For me it is likely going to boil down to who I want in a minority situation and quite likely which MP I prefer in my riding.  Slim pickings


----------



## Brad Sallows (3 Oct 2019)

>Scheer was gangbanged

Perhaps you meant "ganged-up upon"?


----------



## Blackadder1916 (3 Oct 2019)

Mister Donut said:
			
		

> The filthy communists want to take my guns, . . .



Good to see that someone has read the platform of parties fielding candidates.

https://votecommunist.com/peoples-agenda-election-platform/


> •Ban the sale and possession of hand guns and military assault weapons.



I'll certainly won't be voting for a candidate from the CPC (Communist Party of Canada), but that was highly unlikely anyway since they don't have anyone running in my riding.


----------



## Jarnhamar (3 Oct 2019)

[quote author=Remius]Although not a voting factor for me, I sympathise with gun owners and can see why they would vote CPC.                                        
[/quote]

Appreciate that.

Even as a non-gun owner (or perhaps non-factor for you) the absurdity of what Trudeau is doing with firearms in order to buy votes should factor in to your decision making. Gun owners are low hanging fruit. There are no stats anywhere in Canada that support vilifying AR15s when you take into account our laws in order to obtain them and the frequency in which they're used in murders.

You should see that behavior as a redflag.


----------



## Remius (3 Oct 2019)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> I would rather the party leaders focus on debating substantive policy issues, but I have to admit that the "camping gear and costumes" quip about Trudeau's second plane is pretty funny.
> 
> I would tend to agree with your assessment of Scheer and the Conservatives now being seen as a threat. This puts the Liberals in a bind as they are fighting a two front war. Pivot too far left and they lose the blue liberals to the conservatives. Pivot too far right and the NDP/ Greens eat their lunch- although the liberals may have already calculated they can make deal with one or both in a minority situation to keep them in power.



Yeah, you would think that the incumbent would be the target.    

About arguing the policy issues, it would seem that the LPC and CPC platform is very similar with a few exceptions.  2 sides of the same coin.


----------



## Remius (3 Oct 2019)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >Scheer was gangbanged
> 
> Perhaps you meant "ganged-up upon"?



Yes.  I should have perhaps used better wording... :facepalm:


----------



## Remius (3 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Appreciate that.
> 
> Even as a non-gun owner (or perhaps non-factor for you) the absurdity of what Trudeau is doing with firearms in order to buy votes should factor in to your decision making. Gun owners are low hanging fruit. There are no stats anywhere in Canada that support vilifying AR15s when you take into account our laws in order to obtain them and the frequency in which they're used in murders.
> 
> You should see that behavior as a redflag.



I see red flags on all sides.  All parties are trying to buy votes.  Like I said, slim pickings.  Trudeau's behaviour on plenty of things have raised many a red flag.  In fact his stance on guns is trivial compared to his other issues.


----------



## mariomike (3 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Although not a voting factor for me, I sympathise with gun owners and can see why they would vote CPC.



I'm a gun owner, because I've always enjoyed hunting. But, I'm not obsessed with guns.

Most of my political interest has been at the municipal level, which thank-fully, is non-partisan.

Our union and pensioners association are pretty helpful with information for active and retired members to make informed decisions to support the politicians who support us.


----------



## Brad Sallows (3 Oct 2019)

Gun control isn't really a safety and health issue.  It's a culture war.  You can map that out easily enough by looking at whom the "fixes" are directed.


----------



## Halifax Tar (3 Oct 2019)

Trudeau lost me on Electoral Reform, Ethics breaches (how many now ?), Khdar, SNC Lavalin, the VAdm Norman Affair, I am asking for more than he can give; and to top it all off, now he wants to come after my guns.  

Its almost like he took my vote last time and then did everything he could to make sure I wouldn't vote for his party ever again.  It wasn't that personal I know


----------



## Jarnhamar (3 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Trudeau's behaviour on plenty of things have raised many a red flag.  *In fact his stance on guns is trivial compared to his other issues.*


His stance on guns may be trivial but his actions are a hell of a lot more serious. 

Banning personal property from 99.9% law abiding citizens based on emotion and fear mongering to buy votes while costing Canadians at least $600 million with no empirical evidence. That's fucked up.  But a lot of Canadians don't seem to care because it doesn't directly effect them. Maybe carbon emitting SUVs will be next because you don't need an SUV to drive to work.


----------



## Remius (3 Oct 2019)

This is just breaking.

https://election.ctvnews.ca/andrew-scheer-has-dual-canadian-u-s-citizenship-party-confirms-1.4623024

I don’t think it’s a big deal at the end of the day but how did no one know about this until now?


----------



## Jarnhamar (3 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> This is just breaking.
> 
> https://election.ctvnews.ca/andrew-scheer-has-dual-canadian-u-s-citizenship-party-confirms-1.4623024
> 
> I don’t think it’s a big deal at the end of the day but how did no one know about this until now?



Looks like the US embassy knew in August.


----------



## Mister Donut (3 Oct 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> What in the hell are you going on about?



Have a few friends that work for IRCC and CBSA......and many of the decisions being rendered there and even up to the IRB are being fettered by the the current government to buy votes.

For those not familiar with the decision making process in these departments, approvals are far easier to write up than refusals.  When management increase quotas required of the officer, approvals naturally increase, and the level of scrutiny per file decreases significantly.  Complex files are suddenly processed with the same level of attention as straight-forward cases. 

And this is not just at IRCC.  The same thing happens at the IRB level.  A IRB member was dismissed for not approving enough cases, not sure if they ever hired him back after making a stink about it....Uni prof at U of T I think.

Security and background checks?  They're based on what the applicant says on their Schedule A.  They literally take their word for it when it comes to their history.  The bad guys that are dumb enough to be honest might get screened out, but beyond that, there isn't enough time and staff to conduct proper investigations on an applicant's background.  Terrorists was a bit general, I apologize for that, but there are a lot of people that should not be here (criminals, pedofiles, rapists - fuk, surprising a lot of the last two), and it's you'd be surprised how costly and difficult it is to get them out once they're here.

The cost to keep these $hit-rats alive and comfortable for a year before their hearing is on us, the tax payers.  

Dumb applicants have been known to confess to the reviewing officer that the only reason they made a claim was because their parent's can no longer afford to send them to school in Canada and pay for their MSP, but most are coached by immigration consultants and lawyers for a significant fee.  

If you want to scratch the surface, stand outside of an IRCC building and see the line up of ref claimants every morning.  Most are well dressed, with their iPhone Xs, LV, Coach or Gucci bags waiting to make a ref claim.  Not all of them are simply trying get out of paying the International Fee for schooling....some claimants have minor crim, to serious crim to being RBGs (really bad guys).  

One particular friend told me he worked in the Ref unit for 6 months, seeing maybe 3 families a day.  He didn't render the ultimate decision on whether the applicants qualified for protection, but rather made recommendations to the IRB. 
 In those 6 months, he only had one family he actually believed - a white family from South Africa.  He was of the opinion that the rest of his claimants lacked credibility, and it was demoralizing for him to watch the IRB approve applications with minimal evidence and weak reasons for their approvals.  This officer is not white, so it's not a racial thing, but he thought the white family from SA would probably get fukked when the finally got to the IRB.

Maybe my friends are just jaded, but they're from different POEs and various inland offices, so it probably isn't a coincidence that there's a common theme when it comes to who's being allowed into the country.  And it's not just ref claimants, we're talking all lines of business.


----------



## Remius (3 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Looks like the US embassy knew in August.



Just watching his media scrum...he looks uncomfortable with the line of questioning about it.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (3 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> This is just breaking.
> 
> https://election.ctvnews.ca/andrew-scheer-has-dual-canadian-u-s-citizenship-party-confirms-1.4623024
> 
> I don’t think it’s a big deal at the end of the day but how did no one know about this until now?



So? Elizabeth May was born in the USA. Half the Trudeau cabinet was born outside of Canada. Trudeau himself is half cuban (that was a joke...).

I thought Canada embraced immigration and multiculturalism?


----------



## mariomike (3 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Maybe carbon emitting SUVs will be next because you don't need an SUV to drive to work.



Guess I was fortunate being able to walk to work. Took the car when it needed a wash.



			
				SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> I thought Canada embraced immigration and multiculturalism?



According to the quoted article, it depends,



> The Conservatives have been critical of other leaders’ citizenship status in the past, however.
> 
> Scheer himself questioned former Gov. Gen. Michaelle Jean’s French citizenship in an August 2005 blog post, in which he said he has a “few questions” about her appointment: “Does it bother you that she is a dual citizen (France and Canada)? Would it bother you if instead of French citizenship, she held U.S. citizenship?”
> 
> ...


----------



## Remius (3 Oct 2019)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> So? Elizabeth May was born in the USA. Half the Trudeau cabinet was born outside of Canada. Trudeau himself is half cuban (that was a joke...).
> 
> I thought Canada embraced immigration and multiculturalism?



Ah yes.  The CPC has never had an issue with dual citizens?  Like Michael Jean or Stephane Dion?  His citizenship status isn’t the issue.  But it sure looks like he was hiding it.


----------



## mariomike (3 Oct 2019)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Trudeau himself is half cuban (that was a joke...).


In case anyone takes the joke seriously,


> Is Justin Trudeau Fidel Castro’s Love Child?
> https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/justin-trudeau-is-fidel-castros-love-child/
> Claims that Fidel Castro and Margaret Trudeau had an affair that produced the current Canadian prime minister are impossible on both biological and historical grounds.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (3 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Looks like the US embassy knew in August.



So he took the step to relinquish US citizenship (or a step that could make public the knowledge of his dual citizenship) only two years and two months after becoming Leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition, or only eight years after becoming Speaker of the House of Commons.  

I wonder if he has been filing his US tax returns all these years; the IRS takes a dim view of non-resident citizens who don't file.


----------



## Remius (3 Oct 2019)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> So he took the step to relinquish US citizenship (or a step that could make public the knowledge of his dual citizenship) only two years and two months after becoming Leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition, or only eight years after becoming Speaker of the House of Commons.
> 
> I wonder if he has been filing his US tax returns all these years; the IRS takes a dim view of non-resident citizens who don't file.



Apparently he has.


----------



## brihard (3 Oct 2019)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> So? Elizabeth May was born in the USA. Half the Trudeau cabinet was born outside of Canada. Trudeau himself is half cuban (that was a joke...).
> 
> I thought Canada embraced immigration and multiculturalism?



I don’t think the issue is dual citizenship; the issue is blatant hypocrisy.


----------



## Jarnhamar (3 Oct 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I don’t think the issue is dual citizenship; the issue is blatant hypocrisy.



We're the Conservatives under Scheers time as boss attacking others for having dual citizenship? (honest question)


----------



## brihard (3 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> We're the Conservatives under Scheers time as boss attacking others for having dual citizenship? (honest question)



Not sure if it’s that recent, but Scheer raised concerns over Michaelle Jean’s appointment as GG due to French dual citizenship. He even literally said ‘What if it was American?’

Some of the hypocrisy is by virtue of his leadership of a party that has launched off on this issue, and his disinclination to repudiate it while being basically in the exact same beaten zone himself.


----------



## Jarnhamar (3 Oct 2019)

Then it's a surely a dumb ass move by him. Far as I can see he was playing it safe waiting until it looked like he had a chance of winning before giving it up.


----------



## brihard (3 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Then it's a surely a dumb *** move by him. Far as I can see he was playing it safe waiting until it looked like he had a chance of winning before giving it up.



That’s how I read it too. He waited til August to begin renouncing citizenship.

I mean, personally, I don’t really care. But I can read the optics of it.

As I commented earlier on other means, this election is like picking your favourite genital wart.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (3 Oct 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Not sure if it’s that recent, but Scheer raised concerns over Michaelle Jean’s appointment as GG due to French dual citizenship. He even literally said ‘What if it was American?’
> 
> Some of the hypocrisy is by virtue of his leadership of a party that has launched off on this issue, and his disinclination to repudiate it while being basically in the exact same beaten zone himself.



Granted. So now we have all the party leaders caught in some degree of hypocritical positioning.

So the question becomes: which hypocrisy can you as a voter live with?


----------



## Remius (3 Oct 2019)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Granted. So now we have all the party leaders caught in some degree of hypocritical positioning.
> 
> So the question becomes: which hypocrisy can you as a voter live with?



Or do we look at the actual policies and accept that our politicians are hypocrites?

I already knew like many that Trudeau was a hypocrite.  But until recently I hadn’t pegged Scheer in that light.


----------



## Brad Sallows (3 Oct 2019)

Always assume hypocrisy is present.  Always assume some chickenshit misdeeds occurred during youth.  Then you can skip the throw-shit-and-see-what-sticks idiot fest and move on immediately to issues of substance.


----------



## brihard (3 Oct 2019)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Granted. So now we have all the party leaders caught in some degree of hypocritical positioning.
> 
> So the question becomes: which hypocrisy can you as a voter live with?



I vote the platform primarily. A leader is a variable superimposed on that. Yes, a leader can rule themselves (and thus the party) our for me; the leader cannot seal the deal if I think their party sucks.

I don’t have a party affiliation, and I harbour suspicion towards those who invariably can only vote one way. Every party and every leader is capable of sucking so profoundly that any decent person should not consider voting for them. Blind loyalty in the face of this troubles me.

This election just flat out sucks.


----------



## Remius (3 Oct 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> This election just flat out sucks.



Mountain Dew or the Crab Juice...


----------



## Fishbone Jones (3 Oct 2019)

https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/election-2019/randall-denley-trudeaus-desperate-scheer-is-just-like-ford-strategy-is-laughably-off-base?fbclid=IwAR1tLKtpsTPar2m6ytzT3NYV4k5d2a9iyS2mIp46HF1NQ8HT65FR1qSYJio


Randall Denley: Trudeau's desperate Scheer-is-just-like-Ford strategy is laughable



> As much as Trudeau might like people to believe it, it would be tough to find two Conservative politicians more different
> Federal Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau has a clear message for Ontarians: Don’t vote for Conservative Andrew Scheer because that would be “doubling down’ on Ontario Premier Doug Ford. Ford and Scheer, you see, are so similar that it’s difficult to tell them apart.
> 
> As much as Trudeau might like people to believe that, it would be tough to find two Conservative politicians more different than Scheer and Ford. Even during an election campaign, when truth typically takes a holiday, the Scheer-is-just-like-Ford argument is laughably off base. It has novelty value, though. It’s not every day that you see a prime minister build his re-election campaign around attacking a premier’s record.
> ...



The idea that Ontario is pissed off at Ford, I agree, is ludicrous. Where trudeau ever got that idea is beyond me.


----------



## The Bread Guy (3 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> The CPC has never had an issue with dual citizens?  Like Michael Jean or Stephane Dion?


And Tom Mulcair, which Team Blue wasn't happy with, leading to the quote, _"I’m a Canadian and only a Canadian"_.

I have nothing against the dual citizenship, but doing something about it only months before an election does have some optical issues.


			
				Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> ... you can skip the throw-shit-and-see-what-sticks idiot fest and move on immediately to issues of substance.


Sadly, guess which leads to better memes, zingers and gotcha's?  :not-again:


----------



## Rifleman62 (3 Oct 2019)

Who knew the LPC was the party of Birthers?

Reports of Trudeau using two aircraft on his re-election tour, as he did in 2015. Report also of flying 13 minutes from to Montréal-Mirabel International Airport/Montréal–Pierre Elliott Trudeau Airport. 

Carbon credits were purchased though. :rofl:


----------



## SeaKingTacco (3 Oct 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I vote the platform primarily. A leader is a variable superimposed on that. Yes, a leader can rule themselves (and thus the party) our for me; the leader cannot seal the deal if I think their party sucks.
> 
> I don’t have a party affiliation, and I harbour suspicion towards those who invariably can only vote one way. Every party and every leader is capable of sucking so profoundly that any decent person should not consider voting for them. Blind loyalty in the face of this troubles me.
> 
> This election just flat out sucks.



Does that then just leave Mad Max who, although holding positions many find distasteful, as the only federal leader who has been at least consistent in his messaging?


----------



## brihard (3 Oct 2019)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Does that then just leave Mad Max who, although holding positions many find distasteful, as the only federal leader who has been at least consistent in his messaging?



No, see my comment about a leader and party ‘sucking so profoundly’.


----------



## Remius (3 Oct 2019)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Who knew the LPC was the party of Birthers?
> 
> Reports of Trudeau using two aircraft on his re-election tour, as he did in 2015. Report also of flying 13 minutes from to Montréal-Mirabel International Airport/Montréal–Pierre Elliott Trudeau Airport.
> 
> Carbon credits were purchased though.



Carbon credits are a joke.  They do nothing to reduce emissions.  Heard a good description on talk radio.  

They played a sound bite of two guys trying to sell cheating credits.  So you cheat on your wife, you can pay a small amount to these guys who will reinvest it in faithful couples to offset what you did. People’s reactions to this plan was funny until they were told that this is essentially what carbon offsets are.


----------



## Haggis (3 Oct 2019)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Does that then just leave Mad Max who, although holding positions many find distasteful, as the only federal leader who has been at least consistent in his messaging?



In 2008 Mad Max left a secret dossier at his girlfriend's place.  I'm surprised that hasn't been dredged up by the Crips or Bloods yet.


----------



## mariomike (3 Oct 2019)

In case anyone is wondering where Doug has been during all of this,



> National Post
> 
> Exclusive poll reveals 'Doug Ford factor' a big problem for Scheer's Conservatives in Ontario
> https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/election-2019/exclusive-poll-reveals-doug-ford-factor-a-big-problem-for-scheers-conservatives-in-ontario
> ...


----------



## Remius (3 Oct 2019)

mariomike said:
			
		

> In case anyone is wondering where Doug has been during all of this,



Who needs Ford when you can bring in another Premier who is likely less of a liability.

https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/election-2019/jason-kenney-headed-to-ontario-to-campaign-for-andrew-scheer-in-crucial-toronto-area-ridings


----------



## The Bread Guy (4 Oct 2019)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Who knew the LPC was the party of Birthers?


 :rofl:  If you mean the dual-citizenship thing, I'd be happy to see any material you've seen showing anyone in the Liberal Party or supporting it asking to see Scheer's birth certificate, or questioning where he was born as a way to say he shouldn't even be an MP or PM.


			
				Haggis said:
			
		

> In 2008 Mad Max left a secret dossier at his girlfriend's place.  I'm surprised that hasn't been dredged up by the Crips or Bloods yet.


If Team Blue or Team Red start seeing him as a credible threat as the big day gets closer, wait for it ...


----------



## Good2Golf (4 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Carbon credits are a joke.  They do nothing to reduce emissions.  Heard a good description on talk radio.
> 
> They played a sound bite of two guys trying to sell cheating credits.  So you cheat on your wife, you can pay a small amount to these guys who will reinvest it in faithful couples to offset what you did. People’s reactions to this plan was funny until they were told that this is essentially what carbon offsets are.



A little bit of gold, hiding out in the slug-fest.   I may have to use this one of these days...full disclosure, I don't tick "use more of my Aeroplane points to offset carbon use" when I redeem my travel points.

Regards
G2G


----------



## SeaKingTacco (4 Oct 2019)

Carbon credits are the modern incarnation of indulgences that were, in medieval times, paid to the Catholic Church by the wealthy in order to atone for sinning.

Of course, environmentalist are notoriously immune to irony....


----------



## Journeyman (4 Oct 2019)

Interesting Tweet from Bob Rae, regarding Sheer's citizenship  panic



> Bob Rae
> @BobRae48
> 
> Joking aside, many people have dual citizenship, it is part and parcel of being a global country in an interconnected world.  There is an irony given the attacks against Dion and Mulcair, but no one should be challenging Mr Scheer’s loyalty to Canada.
> 5:55 PM · Oct 3, 2019


Disclosure:  I'm eligible for dual citizenship, having an American father;  I've never bothered, although my brother has two passports.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (4 Oct 2019)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Carbon credits are the modern incarnation of indulgences that were, in medieval times, paid to the Catholic Church by the wealthy in order to atone for sinning.
> 
> Of course, environmentalist are notoriously immune to irony....



I was thinking the same thing ... you beat me to it.


----------



## mariomike (4 Oct 2019)

Hope they don't have a draft,



> Oct 04, 2019
> 
> Andrew Scheer is registered for selective service — the U.S. agency that runs the military draft
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/andrew-scheer-draft-us-selective-service-1.5309002
> ...


----------



## FSTO (4 Oct 2019)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Hope they don't have a draft,



Can't see a draft coming anytime soon. I think Scheer is pretty safe.


What a gong show.


----------



## brihard (4 Oct 2019)

Ouch. CPC had to turf their candidate in Burnaby, BC today over some pretty horrendously homophobic comments made 7 or 8 years ago.

This is a swing riding that 338canada has running pretty much neck and neck between CPC and LPC. Coincidentally it’s the epicentre of the Trans Mountain Expansion protests.

On the one hand I would have had a real problem had they not dropped her as a candidate based on her conduct, but on the other hand this gives the Libs a riding that could have gone either way... Serious vetting fail.


https://election.ctvnews.ca/b-c-candidate-no-longer-with-conservatives-after-homophobic-comments-resurface-1.4625042


----------



## Remius (4 Oct 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Ouch. CPC had to turf their candidate in Burnaby, BC today over some pretty horrendously homophobic comments made 7 or 8 years ago.
> 
> This is a swing riding that 338canada has running pretty much neck and neck between CPC and LPC. Coincidentally it’s the epicentre of the Trans Mountain Expansion protests.
> 
> ...



Not sure they had much of a choice in dropping her.  Good on them for doing it swiftly.

This has been a bad week for the CPC.


----------



## OldSolduer (4 Oct 2019)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Carbon credits are the modern incarnation of indulgences that were, in medieval times, paid to the Catholic Church by the wealthy in order to atone for sinning.
> 
> Of course, environmentalist are notoriously immune to irony....



I'm a podcast addict and Dan Carlin had a podcast on the Anabaptists, the Roman Catholic church and how the two sides came to blows in Muenster in 1536. 

It did not end well for the Anabaptists.


----------



## ModlrMike (5 Oct 2019)

So does that mean that the Liberals have to dump this guy, or is all forgiven now that he's apologized?

https://tinyurl.com/y5uu6nmh


----------



## Cloud Cover (5 Oct 2019)

They are keeping him. Sins of the disciples don't count, because colour of jersey trumps these things ...


----------



## Remius (5 Oct 2019)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> So does that mean that the Liberals have to dump this guy, or is all forgiven now that he's apologized?
> 
> https://tinyurl.com/y5uu6nmh



Scheer created a precedent by saying as long as his people apologized for past posts and comments he was ok keeping them. Expect the liberals to use that.

Does anyone believe that guy has changed since 2013?  I don’t. Not for a second.  If he gets elected expect to hear about this guy and something stupid he says or does.


----------



## Brad Sallows (5 Oct 2019)

>Scheer created a precedent by saying as long as his people apologized for past posts and comments he was ok keeping them. Expect the liberals to use that.

Good.  Let's forgive the past and hold people accountable for their behaviour in the present.


----------



## brihard (5 Oct 2019)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >Scheer created a precedent by saying as long as his people apologized for past posts and comments he was ok keeping them. Expect the liberals to use that.
> 
> Good.  Let's forgive the past and hold people accountable for their behaviour in the present.



I suppose it depends on whether it’s reasonable to surmise that someone’s current beliefs and attitudes no longer mirror what they used to show. For instance in the case of the erstwhile CPC candidate, I would need to be really convinced that someone in presumably their 40s has changed and has evolved past profound and disgusting homophobic views. I very much doubt they have. At best she might learn to keep quiet about it.

I’m torn on the LPC candidate out east. He said a bunch of dumb stuff for sure. He has also immediately apologized and taken responsibility at least somewhat, for what that’s worth. I guess fairness suggests they should consider dropping him, though as the social media posts aren’t nearly as grave and are also fairly dated now, I’d be open to hearing about what he’s been like in the past five years.

What is very clear is that basically nobody who has lived in the shacks on base in the age of social media has a future in politics.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (5 Oct 2019)

This election is hilariously petty in a lame sort of Canadian way.

It's as if Paul Gross took the script of Passchendaele and Hyena Road and used it to create Canada's very own made for CBC version of the Manchurian Candidate.


----------



## brihard (5 Oct 2019)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> This election is hilariously petty in a lame sort of Canadian way.
> 
> It's as if Paul Gross took the script of Passchendaele and Hyena Road and used it to create Canada's very own made for CBC version of the Manchurian Candidate.



So at what point, completely unnecessary to the story, do Andrew Scheer and Catherine McKenna make out?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (5 Oct 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> So at what point, completely unnecessary to the story, do Andrew Scheer and Catherine McKenna make out?



We totally could have used that film as an Operation Honour teaching resource  :rofl:


----------



## daftandbarmy (5 Oct 2019)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> We totally could have used that film as an Operation Honour teaching resource  :rofl:



Shall be known as 'The Seediest Step of Battle Procedure', right before deploying on ops....


----------



## FSTO (5 Oct 2019)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> We totally could have used that film as an Operation Honour teaching resource  :rofl:


You made me just realize that there was a prebattle sex scene in both films!!😂


----------



## Brad Sallows (5 Oct 2019)

>I suppose it depends on whether it’s reasonable to surmise that someone’s current beliefs and attitudes no longer mirror what they used to show.

It is, unless he's manifestly still exhibiting the same behaviour or looks an awful lot like someone just hiding it.  Pretty much every old acquaintance I meet up with after absences covering a few years is not quite the same person.  5 years after high school grad, people had matured.  5 years after uni grad, people had matured more.  5 or 10 years into their post-education life, people had matured even more.  Etc. Etc.  Now, I suppose heading out of middle age, people are supposed to become more curmudgeonly and narrow-minded, but I'm not there yet so can't say whether that's true.


----------



## ModlrMike (5 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Scheer created a precedent by saying as long as his people apologized for past posts and comments he was ok keeping them.



That's true, but I would argue that some transgressions defy absolution.


----------



## Remius (5 Oct 2019)

So Eric Grenier’s poll tracker has the LPC ahead for the first time since Feb.

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/

Still tight.  But if Andrew Scheer has another bad debate or week we could see the LPC increase the gap.


----------



## Remius (5 Oct 2019)

To add to my post about the LPC leading in the polls, Don Martin expresses exactly what I’m feeling about Scheer.

https://election.ctvnews.ca/don-martin-suddenly-scheer-is-on-trial-by-fire-1.4624576


----------



## SeaKingTacco (5 Oct 2019)

At least, to his credit, Scheer genuinely looks like his conscience is bothering him over this.

Trudeau? Not so much remorse in that one....


----------



## Brad Sallows (5 Oct 2019)

The NDP has a similar problem.

I suppose after the last election the strong leadership contenders looked at the LPC, figured it was in for at least two terms, and decided not to audition for the role of caretaker - let someone else take that bullet.  Then it turns out Trudeau and the LPC are vulnerable after one term.  Oops.


----------



## Remius (5 Oct 2019)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> The NDP has a similar problem.
> 
> I suppose after the last election the strong leadership contenders looked at the LPC, figured it was in for at least two terms, and decided not to audition for the role of caretaker - let someone else take that bullet.  Then it turns out Trudeau and the LPC are vulnerable after one term.  Oops.



For sure. Though I find Singh to actually be one of the better performers of this campaign.  But I guess expectations were set low.  The problem is he waited too long to show that side of himself.


----------



## brihard (5 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> To add to my post about the LPC leading in the polls, Don Martin expresses exactly what I’m feeling about Scheer.
> 
> https://election.ctvnews.ca/don-martin-suddenly-scheer-is-on-trial-by-fire-1.4624576



At this point I just hope they can be held to a minority. Let the CPC take the winter to do some serious introspection and for Scheer to exit the leadership in an orderly manner, and then let Raitt, Ambrose, or MacKay take over, roll up their sleeves and get working on cleanup. Hopefully some time in 2022 or so an opportune time arrives to trigger an election.


----------



## stellarpanther (5 Oct 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> At this point I just hope they can be held to a minority. Let the CPC take the winter to do some serious introspection and for Scheer to exit the leadership in an orderly manner, and then let Raitt, Ambrose, or MacKay take over, roll up their sleeves and get working on cleanup. Hopefully some time in 2022 or so an opportune time arrives to trigger an election.


I think even if it is a minority Liberal government although I hope they can win a majority, the NDP will prop them up if necessary.  The NDP will not do anything that could give the Cons a chance so it will go the full four years in my opinion.


----------



## Jarnhamar (5 Oct 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> At this point I just hope they can be held to a minority.



I think you should hope big and see them get the treatment they got in the Ontario election 

I know the rallying cry is that Scheer is _booooooooring_. Maybe that's what we need. He's got 15 years of experience as politician and what's his biggest sins? Fudging a resume about insurance at 24 and not renouncing his US citizenship until it was convenient for him now. 

Trudeau's past and present speak for themselves. If he gets the Liberals re-elected, even as a minority, it's showing Trudeau that he can behave however he wants and not be accountable.


----------



## Brad Sallows (5 Oct 2019)

Scheer is severely underwhelming.  My compelling reason to vote CPC right now is that the CPC's idea of fiscal policy is probably the best fit with the (apparently fiscally conservative) departmental regulars, which makes the CPC the best hedge against the imminent recession people keep talking about.  It won't be Harper and Flaherty, but I expect it would be better than the PM's puppeteers and Morneau, and much better than watching a LPC minority negotiate "stimulus spending" with NDP backers.


----------



## mariomike (5 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> If he gets the Liberals re-elected, even as a minority, it's showing Trudeau that he can behave however he wants and not be accountable.



Who could support a leader like that?


----------



## Remius (5 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I know the rallying cry is that Scheer is _booooooooring_.



To be honest boring is fine.  But he’s ineffective.  He waffles under pressure.  And quite likely will not be able to beat a PM who has had more embarrassing scandals than any in recent history.  

I’ll take a LPC minority that will be short lived (I honestly don’t think Trudeau can hold any type of coalition for very long) to allow someone better to replace Scheer. 

Even on a fiscal front, there is very little difference between the CPC and LPC right now as far as their platforms are concerned.  

My vote will likely go to who I prefer in my riding.  And right now the incumbent CPC is not the most likeable. Another staffer who became a career politician.


----------



## FJAG (6 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> To be honest boring is fine.  But he’s ineffective.  He waffles under pressure.  And quite likely will not be able to beat a PM who has had more embarrassing scandals than any in recent history.
> 
> I’ll take a LPC minority that will be short lived (I honestly don’t think Trudeau can hold any type of coalition for very long) to allow someone better to replace Scheer.
> 
> ...



That's my problem too. I'm going to have to choke back a lot of bile. The alternative is unthinkable.

 :brickwall:


----------



## ModlrMike (6 Oct 2019)

There appears to be something of a fire developing on Twitter vis-a-vis the LPC and an injunction against the Globe and Mail.  op:


----------



## Cloud Cover (6 Oct 2019)

between Kinsella, Marieka Walsh at the Globe, another unidentified source who was a litigant and party to a confidential settlement agreement, and some documents the Post Millennial has in its possession: there is a Non disclosure agreement that has certain terms including obtaining an injunction in the case of imminent breach by a party thereto. 

It seems a certain person sent gliders a garment too far.


----------



## The Bread Guy (6 Oct 2019)

Just a reminder:  Twitter aflutter =/= truth or the whole story - remember it was also aflutter about this, too  


			
				Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> between Kinsella, Marieka Walsh at the Globe, another unidentified source who was a litigant and party to a confidential settlement agreement, and some documents the Post Millennial has in its possession: there is a Non disclosure agreement that has certain terms including obtaining an injunction in the case of imminent breach by a party thereto.


I haven't seen The Post Millenial say they have docs (their site or Twitter feed) - where's that popping up?

Walsh says JT said later that he didn't sign a non-disclosure agreement***, and the former headmaster sent CTV News the attached statement as well.

op:

*** - A bit of an experiment:  try reading that sentence six different ways, each time emphasizing a different word.


----------



## Remius (6 Oct 2019)

kin sella may have egg on his face...


----------



## Good2Golf (6 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> kin sella may have egg on his face...



Uh-oh, not yellowface too!


----------



## Jarnhamar (6 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> To be honest boring is fine.  But he’s ineffective.  He waffles under pressure.


I haven't seen any videos or sound bites of that but maybe you're right. Do any examples come to mind? 

I'm thinking of Trudeau when someone asked him about plastic water bottles. Not much pressure there. 

https://youtu.be/_sBxAvxr9fo

He's a drama teacher that excells at memorizing lines. 


> And quite likely will not be able to beat a PM who has had more embarrassing scandals than any in recent history.



Yup. I had no idea who he was before the Conservative elected him. I wish it was Ambrose in that seat instead.


----------



## Kirkhill (6 Oct 2019)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> *** - A bit of an experiment:  try reading that sentence six different ways, each time emphasizing a different word.



An amazingly effective technique.  But it still doesn't carry the nuances found in facial expressions and body language.  And a further reason why I dislike texting, emails and even this site (although it is an excellent site).  Nothing beats face to face communication.

Another, similar technique is to look at a photograph of a face and look at just the upper half, just the lower half, just the left side and just the right side.  Cover the bit you're not looking at.   See if the expressions in all cases match.  Routinely they don't.


----------



## brihard (6 Oct 2019)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> There appears to be something of a fire developing on Twitter vis-a-vis the LPC and an injunction against the Globe and Mail.  op:



I’ve yet to see anything actually corroborating this. Plenty of people have said their G&M arrived on time (hard to completely re-print a newspaper for national distribution on short notice), so that quashes the ‘paper didn’t show up’ rumour.

An injunction would not be something that could stay secret. And it would do far more harm than good we’re there a story that would inevitably be getting out. The courts do not look kindly on giving injunctions in the sort of circumstances rumoured on this.

If the PM/LPC had muzzled a press outlet on a damaging story, every facet of the CPC’s campaign would be absolutely in an uproar over it. I don’t see them even asking pointed questions about it.

Given that we’re in an election period, and how desperately so many people want anything to be true that could hurt ‘the other side’, I’m not gonna credit this with a shred of legitimacy until there is credible corroboration. So far there isn’t even non-credible corroboration.


----------



## Remius (6 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I haven't seen any videos or sound bites of that but maybe your right. Do any examples come to mind?
> 
> I'm thinking of Trudeau when someone asked him about plastic water bottles. Not much pressure there.
> 
> ...



Oh Trudeau waffles too. 

Agreed about Ambrose. 

Scheer’s performance in both debates was not good.  When questioned about his US citizenship at that press conference he looked like he’d been caught with his hand in the coolie jar.  His best response was that’s no one ever asked...

If he had stated what he said about his stance on abortion this week a few months ago the whole issue would be done and over with.  But he stuck to a line no one was buying.  

I hope he does better this week but I suspect he will struggle again.


----------



## Remius (6 Oct 2019)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> There appears to be something of a fire developing on Twitter vis-a-vis the LPC and an injunction against the Globe and Mail.  op:



https://mobile.twitter.com/kinsellawarren/status/1180857827839156224


Looks like he’s backtracking but also insinuating that someone’s got to them

 :Tin-Foil-Hat:


----------



## brihard (6 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> https://mobile.twitter.com/kinsellawarren/status/1180857827839156224
> 
> 
> Looks like he’s backtracking but also insinuating that someone’s got to them
> ...



*shrug* It’s Kinsella. The noise:signal ratio is typically pretty high.

He did kinda put himself out farther than usual on this one...


----------



## The Bread Guy (6 Oct 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> *shrug* It’s Kinsella. The noise:signal ratio is typically pretty high.


True, but it's funny how so many people who would have mocked him as a Liberal hack/operator/bag man a week ago are happy to offer this up as evidence of sorts when it's about someone they hate even more.


----------



## Jarnhamar (6 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> https://mobile.twitter.com/kinsellawarren/status/1180857827839156224
> 
> 
> Looks like he’s backtracking but also insinuating that someone’s got to them
> ...



Maybe butts had lunch with them.


----------



## The Bread Guy (6 Oct 2019)

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> An amazingly effective technique.  But it still doesn't carry the nuances found in facial expressions and body language.  And a further reason why I dislike texting, emails and even this site (although it is an excellent site).  Nothing beats face to face communication.


You're right about the treasure trove of data to be culled by watching.  To be completely fair, the quote is from the reporter's Twitter post, not verbatim from JT.  Still, it can be useful to go over transcripts to avoid getting distracted by the visual, too.  Lots of different ways of learning out there, indeed.


----------



## daftandbarmy (6 Oct 2019)

Jack Knox for Prime Minister 

Jack Knox: Be afraid. Be very afraid. It’s the Politicians


Frankly, it has been hard to keep up. Even now, promises rain down like candy from a parade float. A tax on luxury cars. A federal Family Day holiday. Caps on ATM charges. Planting two billion trees. Planting 10 billion trees.


Except nothing’s really sticking, is it? No one is quite sure what this election is all about, so now it has shifted to the trivial and the distracting, the sideshows outdrawing the main stage as the leaders go after each other’s supposed flaws.

Not that we in the news media aren’t complicit. It usually goes something like this:

Trudeau at a campaign stop: “Today I would like to unveil sweeping agricultural reforms that promise prosperity to canola farmers here in Broken Dreams, Saskatchewan.”

Media: “Boring. What about Andrew Scheer’s vestigial tail?”

Trudeau: “Um, vestigial tails have no place in a free and open society.”

Newspaper headline: “Trudeau rips Scheer over hidden tail.”

Scheer: “I don’t have a vestigial tail, but you might want to check Bernier.”

NDP press release: “Typical Scheer: Deny, deny, deflect -- just like that sketchy Elizabeth May.”

May: “I thought Singh was better than this. You should be disappointed in him.”

Times Colonist editorial -- “Tailgate: Let’s get to the bottom of this” (the TC has some very clever headline writers).

https://www.timescolonist.com/news/local/jack-knox-be-afraid-be-very-afraid-it-s-the-politicians-1.23967945


----------



## Journeyman (6 Oct 2019)

I did like one of the follow-on comments to the Kinsella tweet:


> Being this dumb should disqualify you from voting.  What is even the point of facts and evidence when dumb people just believe anything?


     :rofl:


----------



## SeaKingTacco (6 Oct 2019)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> True, but it's funny how so many people who would have mocked him as a Liberal hack/operator/bag man a week ago are happy to offer this up as evidence of sorts when it's about someone they hate even more.


Kinsella is a Chretien Liberal. He has made it clear that he has absolutely clear that he has no time for Trudeau or any of his crew. He believes the Liberals need to lose this election to get rid of the Trudeau crowd from the Party. To his core, I think he is still a Liberal, even if the current party leadership and him are not on speaking terms (to put it mildly).

He may not be wrong. Even a Liberal minority would likely bring about a Conservative leadership review. I doubt they would make the same mistake, twice, and the Liberals are likely to face very effective opposition in 6-12 months.

Plus, the Liberals have gone out of their way to make enemies of 6 provincial premiers (the Conservative ones, especially Ontario). Good luck getting any cooperation out of them. Good luck keeping 650 first nations on side. Good luck if separatism breaks out into the mainstream in Alberta and Saskatchewan and good luck if the economy even catches a whiff of a cold.


----------



## ModlrMike (6 Oct 2019)

In fairness to Mr Scheer, I don't think the Conservative Party ever expected this election to be so close. When he was selected as leader, I felt that he was there to "mind the shop" until the next leader could be selected in about six years, when the country was well and truly tired of the Liberals. A nice guy who could keep the various factions of the party together until someone more dynamic was made available.


----------



## Remius (6 Oct 2019)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> In fairness to Mr Scheer, I don't think the Conservative Party ever expected this election to be so close. When he was selected as leader, I felt that he was there to "mind the shop" until the next leader could be selected in about six years, when the country was well and truly tired of the Liberals. A nice guy who could keep the various factions of the party together until someone more dynamic was made available.



That is actually very well said and a point of view I had not considered.


----------



## The Bread Guy (6 Oct 2019)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Kinsella is a Chretien Liberal. He has made it clear that he has absolutely clear that he has no time for Trudeau or any of his crew. He believes the Liberals need to lose this election to get rid of the Trudeau crowd from the Party. To his core, I think he is still a Liberal, even if the current party leadership and him are not on speaking terms (to put it mildly).


Just like some say today's Conservatives aren't quite like the "old version" Conservatives - _very_ good point.  And he's likely not the only Team Red member who's less than enamoured of the leadership.

Still, a lot of people I see re-tweeting him don't have your nuanced take on his shade of Red.


----------



## Journeyman (6 Oct 2019)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Still, a lot of people I see re-tweeting him don't have your nuanced take on his shade of Red.


Quite a few political discussions are all about nuance...… and facts.   ;D


----------



## The Bread Guy (6 Oct 2019)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Quite a few political discussions and memes are all about nuance...… and facts.   ;D


FTFY  ;D


----------



## AbdullahD (6 Oct 2019)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> In fairness to Mr Scheer, I don't think the Conservative Party ever expected this election to be so close. When he was selected as leader, I felt that he was there to "mind the shop" until the next leader could be selected in about six years, when the country was well and truly tired of the Liberals. A nice guy who could keep the various factions of the party together until someone more dynamic was made available.



I have been reflecting on this a bit. Maybe, if they (conservatives) do get elected.. he may show qualities that could enchant those who may not usually vote conservative. 

Maybe we all want a more dynamic fellow, but a "blah" candidate is what we need.. I think scheer is an intelligent fellow.. just how intelligent remains to be seen.

If he gets elected, I hope he is on genius level and garners more support over his term. Maybe a minority government with him as leader will be best.. I would prefer a farther right government then he seems to be.. but most Canadian's do not want that. Maybe a relaxed minority, that shows Canadians that are against the right that we are not evil.. could be good.

But this is all a pipe dream, sadly.
Abdullah


----------



## Brad Sallows (6 Oct 2019)

A few possible scenarios.

1. A minority CPC victory could wind up playing out like Joe Clark's short-lived government.  CPC victory prompts LPC to find a better leader; they find one; Scheer governs uninspiringly; CPC gets booted after a short run and LPC is back.

2. LPC wins a majority.  Trudeau is harder to replace, but Scheer is toast.  CPC has an opportunity to become competitive.

3. LPC wins a minority.  Knives eventually come out for Trudeau.
3a.  Scheer is able to stagger on; CPC continues to be weak; new LPC leader leads to victory.
3b.  Scheer accepts that he ain't got it; CPC has an opportunity to become competitive.

My preferred case is 1a, which isn't on the list because I doubt Scheer has the backbone for it: CPC minority; Scheer accepts that he is weak because he couldn't defeat such a flawed LPC government and resigns early on.


----------



## Old Sweat (6 Oct 2019)

Re any of the possible case, and especially  the unstated 1a, I feel that individuals who strive for party leadership, and then becoming prime minister, do not suffer from an excess of modesty and self-doubt. If Scheer was to win the prize of his political life, he would be unlikely to surrender it, so that a better person could assume the mantle of leadership. 

Is a party revolt in the cards, especially after having won the race? It seems unlikely. We'll see.


----------



## Remius (6 Oct 2019)

Any minority won’t last. 

Whoever takes over from that will likely get 4 years. 

Think about what scenario you would prefer.


----------



## stellarpanther (6 Oct 2019)

Not sure if everyone knows this already but advanced polls are open.  Just saying this because several people at work had no idea they could vote now. When my wife and I voted there was only one other person voting at the time so we were in and out in about 5 minutes.


----------



## Jarnhamar (6 Oct 2019)

*Trudeau won't remove Liberal candidate for racist, sexist social-media posts *
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/elections/trudeau-wont-remove-liberal-candidate-for-racist-sexist-social-media-posts/ar-AAImSNV



> Trudeau sidestepped a question about whether he feels limited in his ability to censure candidates for past racist behaviours after photos and a video emerged in the first week of the campaign showing the Liberal leader wearing blackface makeup.



Good news for Liberal candidates.


----------



## daftandbarmy (6 Oct 2019)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> A few possible scenarios.
> 
> 1. A minority CPC victory could wind up playing out like Joe Clark's short-lived government.  CPC victory prompts LPC to find a better leader; they find one; Scheer governs uninspiringly; CPC gets booted after a short run and LPC is back.
> 
> ...



... you forgot one:

4. Concurrently, the Left remains hopelessly divided between the 'Cray Cray Greens' (CCG) and the Under-performing Lighweight Neo-NDP (ULNNDP) giving the other two a chance to romp in the park without fear of being taken on by a formerly impressive and credible political alternative at the other end of the spectrum.


----------



## ballz (6 Oct 2019)

I can't believe I'm cheering for the Bloc... the enemy of my enemy is my friend I guess... but it looks like the Bloc might be the force that saves the rest of Canada from a Liberal majority despite our collective stupidity.


----------



## OldSolduer (6 Oct 2019)

I’m being cynical but maybe we could persuade a few more “pretty boys” to run . This last one is a disaster.


----------



## AbdullahD (6 Oct 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Not sure if everyone knows this already but advanced polls are open.  Just saying this because several people at work had no idea they could vote now. When my wife and I voted there was only one other person voting at the time so we were in and out in about 5 minutes.



It will be a two hour drive their and back. But doing it tomorrow, going to book off from work now. Totally forgot about that myself.

Abdullah


----------



## Journeyman (7 Oct 2019)

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> If he gets elected, I hope he is on genius level...


Not just genius, but "stable genius."TM   op:


----------



## Blackadder1916 (7 Oct 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Not sure if everyone knows this already but advanced polls are open.  Just saying this because several people at work had no idea they could vote now. When my wife and I voted there was only one other person voting at the time so we were in and out in about 5 minutes.



Semantics (ways to vote).  While any eligible elector can vote using the "special ballot process" at any Elections Canada office before 1800 hrs 16 October or at one of over 115 campuses between October 5 to October 9, "Advance Polls" (a different process) will only be open on 11, 12, 13 and 14 October.  On those days voters will have to go to their assigned advance polling place.

Or those voting as CF electors, just go where and when they tell you.


----------



## Halifax Tar (7 Oct 2019)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> In fairness to Mr Scheer, I don't think the Conservative Party ever expected this election to be so close. When he was selected as leader, I felt that he was there to "mind the shop" until the next leader could be selected in about six years, when the country was well and truly tired of the Liberals. A nice guy who could keep the various factions of the party together until someone more dynamic was made available.



Agreed and I have said this many times.  But I think the same can be said for Libs.  Trudeau was expected to be the return of the Sun King.  Easily a 2 term PM, perhaps more ?  

I am not so sure that the Federal Liberal high brass expected JT to be so divisive or such a liability every time he opens his mouth.  

In short I don't think any of the 2 major parties really expect we would be where we are now.  A very very divisive and tight race.


----------



## ModlrMike (7 Oct 2019)

One has shown he can't meet high expectations. The other has the chance to show he can exceed low ones.


----------



## BurnDoctor (7 Oct 2019)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> One has shown he can't meet high expectations. The other has the chance to show he can exceed low ones.



Very well said.


----------



## stellarpanther (7 Oct 2019)

Watching this debate right now I see that Scheer does a better job on attacking Trudeau instead of giving good answers.  I would rather him say what his party would do if elected and let the voter decide if leader's policy is good or not.  His constant attacks are part of what got me not to vote for the Cons.


----------



## dapaterson (7 Oct 2019)

My impression is that Trudeau is running against Harper, and Scheer is running against Trudeau but not running for himself & his party.

Singh made a comment about it earlier tonight - something along the lines of "You're spending all your time on why people shouldn't vote for the other guy, instead of giving them reasons why they should vote for you".


----------



## FSTO (7 Oct 2019)

I've tried twice now to watch this debate. Ugh its just so depressing that this is our choice for leadership. 

And WTF is the Bloc doing on a national debate? Even if they seem to have chance of having the balance of power they still have zero intentions of thinking about the wants and needs of all Canadians.


----------



## observor 69 (7 Oct 2019)

I'm a political geek and I couldn't stand watching this "debate."  :boring:
I 'll see how the "after party" summary goes.


----------



## dapaterson (7 Oct 2019)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> My impression is that Trudeau is running against Harper, and Scheer is running against Trudeau but not running for himself & his party.
> 
> Singh made a comment about it earlier tonight - something along the lines of "You're spending all your time on why people shouldn't vote for the other guy, instead of giving them reasons why they should vote for you".



It's been posted to Singh's Twitter account:



> What we're seeing tonight is Mr. Trudeau and Mr. Scheer arguing over what is worse for Canada.
> 
> I believe we need to be fighting for what will be best for Canada. We need to demand more – not be scared into settling for less.


https://twitter.com/theJagmeetSingh/status/1181356724541968385


----------



## Remius (7 Oct 2019)

That debate format was terrible.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (7 Oct 2019)

Baden Guy said:
			
		

> I'm a political geek and I couldn't stand watching this "debate."  :boring:
> I 'll see how the "after party" summary goes.



Watched a few minutes and changed channels. Might have watched more, 
but ran out of beer.


----------



## MilEME09 (7 Oct 2019)

It was more like watching children bickering


----------



## stellarpanther (7 Oct 2019)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> My impression is that Trudeau is running against Harper, and Scheer is running against Trudeau but not running for himself & his party.
> 
> Singh made a comment about it earlier tonight - something along the lines of "You're spending all your time on why people shouldn't vote for the other guy, instead of giving them reasons why they should vote for you".



I think it seems like Trudeau is running against Harper because when you really look at what the CPC are promising, it's just sounds like a repeat of what Harper ran on.  Nothing really new that I see.


----------



## OldSolduer (8 Oct 2019)

These aren’t debates. It’s a bull crap 💩 way of making themselves look good. 
Political theatre.


----------



## Halifax Tar (8 Oct 2019)

Yankees beat the Twins last night to take the ALDS...


----------



## The Bread Guy (8 Oct 2019)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Political theatre.


 :nod: - and not _just_ the debates.


----------



## Journeyman (8 Oct 2019)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Watched a few minutes and changed channels. Might have watched more, but ran out of beer.


Yet some people still ignore the importance of logistics.   :nod:


----------



## Remius (8 Oct 2019)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Yankees beat the Twins last night to take the ALDS...



The debate gave me ALDS


----------



## GR66 (8 Oct 2019)

Painfully watched the gong show with my 23 year old son.  Afterward he said he'll have to look over the NDP platform in more detail as Jagmeet Singh was the only leader he didn't want to strangle after it was done.

That could potentially be a bid sign for the Liberals if a significant number of people on the left wing of the party's supporters bleed away to the NDP.


----------



## Remius (8 Oct 2019)

To be honest I have never voted NDP.  But that may become a real choice for me if this keeps up.


----------



## MilEME09 (8 Oct 2019)

After last night, Orange Crush round two would be great to see. Say a CPC minority with the NDP in opposition


----------



## ModlrMike (8 Oct 2019)

Shakespeare had it right:

"It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”


----------



## daftandbarmy (8 Oct 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I think it seems like Trudeau is running against Harper because when you really look at what the CPC are promising, it's just sounds like a repeat of what Harper ran on.  Nothing really new that I see.



Trudeau is running against the provinces and seems to be an agent of the United Nations or, more likely, bucking for 'Secretary General'. 

I'd be happy to send him on his way via magic carpet, which would be culturally appropriate for a cultural appropriator


----------



## MilEME09 (8 Oct 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Trudeau is running against the provinces and seems to be an agent of the United Nations or, more likely, bucking for 'Secretary General'.
> 
> I'd be happy to send him on his way via magic carpet, which would be culturally appropriate for a cultural appropriator



The fact he is fighting the provinces shows he doesn't have the backing of the Canadian people, which divides the country further. We need a leader who tries to bridge the gap and communicate and work with the provinces.


----------



## Jarnhamar (8 Oct 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Trudeau is running against the provinces and seems to be an agent of the United Nations or, more likely, bucking for 'Secretary General'.
> 
> I'd be happy to send him on his way via magic carpet, which would be culturally appropriate for a cultural appropriator



Yes, lets promote him out of his position. I'd buy him a nice blue beret as a parting gift for him to play dress up.


----------



## AlDazz (8 Oct 2019)

The most alarming part of this whole process is the total absence of any policy on defence or international affairs.  Where is Canada going in the world?


----------



## MilEME09 (8 Oct 2019)

AlDazz said:
			
		

> The most alarming part of this whole process is the total absence of any policy on defence or international affairs.  Where is Canada going in the world?



Those are topics in the french debate


----------



## stellarpanther (8 Oct 2019)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Yankees beat the Twins last night to take the ALDS...



I should have watched that instead, it would of been much more enjoyable.  I feel like I wasted 2 hours of my life last night.


----------



## The Bread Guy (8 Oct 2019)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> There appears to be something of a fire developing on Twitter vis-a-vis the LPC and an injunction against the Globe and Mail.  op:


The latest, from a media criticism/critique site which will not be taking advantage of the big print media tax breaks:


> ...  journalists there had been looking into the reasons behind Trudeau’s departure from the school. But they didn’t find anything nefarious.
> 
> Reporters at the paper have been confused, for weeks, about this rumoured story.
> 
> ...


----------



## Retired AF Guy (8 Oct 2019)

From Politico, an American view of the debates:



> 'You are a phony, you are a fraud': 5 takeaways from the Canadian debate
> Canadian party leaders
> 
> By RYAN HEATH, ALEXANDER PANETTA and LAUREN GARDNER
> ...



 Article Link


----------



## Journeyman (9 Oct 2019)

AlDazz said:
			
		

> Where is Canada going in the world?


The second part of the question would be ".....and why am I in this hand basket?"   op:


----------



## ModlrMike (9 Oct 2019)

We're clearly approaching peak stupid; although I acknowledge that there's probably no such thing:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/sgro-blackface-comments-singh-1.5314744

The look on the interviewer's face as she tried to process what she was being told is priceless. She'll probably still win her seat though  :facepalm:


----------



## mariomike (9 Oct 2019)

The Doug factor,



> Global News
> 
> October 9, 2019
> 
> ...


----------



## Spencer100 (9 Oct 2019)

I don't the get the Doug hate.  He's done so very little. 

When will the conservatives ever learn. They hate hate you so you might as well be conservative when you are in power. 

Cutting the rate of growth of the budget is not cutting the budget.


----------



## Jarnhamar (9 Oct 2019)

mariomike said:
			
		

> The Doug factor,





> Justin Trudeau has seized onto the Ontario premier’s tanking popularity and tried to anchor it to federal Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer, *invoking Ford’s name at every turn as a harbinger of Conservative doom and gloom.*



I think you mean the desperate Liberal factor.

Their leader is so messed up that because of his OWN behavior he can't even fire a candidate for calling women c**nts, suggesting FN women are meth heads, making fun of Chinese people, joking about drinking and driving and making homophobic comments.

Trudeau's got his deflectors set to maximum. The Liberals don't even have party status in Ontario lol


----------



## mariomike (9 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I think you mean the desperate Liberal factor.



That was the quote in the Global News October 9, 2019 headline,



> Doug Ford factor looms large in election as Liberals seize on premier’s tanking popularity
> https://army.ca/forums/threads/131141/post-1585953/topicseen.html#new
> 
> Recent polling has his approval ratings in the 20s and 30s, and Abacus Data found in July that 65 per cent of Ontarians had a negative impression of Ford, up from 48 per cent last October.


----------



## Jarnhamar (9 Oct 2019)

Seen that, sorry.  I should have said they for more clarity.


----------



## mariomike (9 Oct 2019)

I just know what I read in the papers.


----------



## Remius (10 Oct 2019)

Looking at the poll tracker three days after the debate we see a bit of movement.  Might be unrelated. 

But the Liberals slow rise in numbers stalled yesterday and they went down as of today. 

The CPC was falling at a slow rate but we see an almost 1 point drop today.  Coincidentally the NDP went up by the same amount. 

I think it is probably too late for the NDP to make up any ground but we might be seeing some undecided voters move their votes to the NDP based on Singh's rising popularity or even some younger voters moving to that band wagon.  

I wonder what portion of the vote the Bloc is gaining from.  Possibly some rural Quebec voters that would have gone Blue and some NDP/Liberal bits here and there. 

Getting down to the wire but some voters might be making up their minds this weekend with advance polling.


----------



## daftandbarmy (10 Oct 2019)

Whatever happens, we know that younger voters probably won't:


Why young people don’t vote

Turnout at elections is far lower for young people than any other cohort. Why?

It is not only in America that the young do not exercise their democratic rights. In 2010 just 44% of people aged 18 to 24 voted in Britain’s general election, compared with 65% of people of all ages. In not a single European country do the young turn out more than older people. Historically, youth turnout has never been particularly high anywhere, but over the past few decades things have got worse. One explanation favoured by older people is that the young are simply lazy. But this does not make much sense. Today’s young people volunteer more than old people; they are much better educated; and they are less likely to drink excessively or use drugs than previous generations of youth. That does not seem like a recipe for political apathy.

A better explanation may be that young people today do not feel they have much of a stake in society. Having children and owning property gives you a direct interest in how schools and hospitals are run, and whether parks and libraries are maintained. But if they settle down at all, young people are waiting ever longer to do it. 

Yet perhaps the most depressing explanation is simply that in many places, young people do not feel that there is anyone worth voting for. 

Young people—who tend to be more cosmopolitan, liberal and hopeful than their elders—tend to be switched off by the negativity and cynicism of election campaigns targeting the unhappy old. Sadly, cynicism then breeds cynicism.

https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2014/10/29/why-young-people-dont-vote


----------



## Remius (10 Oct 2019)

Laying the ground work?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ndp-singh-priorities-minority-1.5315981


----------



## Jarnhamar (10 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Laying the ground work?
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ndp-singh-priorities-minority-1.5315981



Singh is also a freedom hater aka wants to ban firearms for votes.


----------



## Remius (10 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Singh is also a freedom hater aka wants to ban firearms for votes.



A coalition or agreement could keep a Liberal minority in power for some time.  The NDP will want their demands met and I assume the land will agree in order to stay in power.


----------



## MilEME09 (10 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> A coalition or agreement could keep a Liberal minority in power for some time.  The NDP will want their demands met and I assume the land will agree in order to stay in power.



Well electroal reform would benefit the NDP, and smaller parties, so if he sticks to that demand, things could get interesting


----------



## ModlrMike (11 Oct 2019)

So if it is the will of the people to elect a Conservative government, he won't support it. Not really "in it for you" then.


----------



## Remius (11 Oct 2019)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> So if it is the will of the people to elect a Conservative government, he won't support it. Not really "in it for you" then.



He’s said as much.  Would have to see if he follows through.


----------



## ModlrMike (11 Oct 2019)

Here's the thing though, he might have painted himself into a corner. He's assuming that he will hold the balance of power. Nothing prevents the Liberals and Conservatives from supporting each other. They're more likely to find common ground now, thanks to the NDP list of demands.


----------



## Remius (11 Oct 2019)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Here's the thing though, he might have painted himself into a corner. He's assuming that he will hold the balance of power. Nothing prevents the Liberals and Conservatives from supporting each other. They're more likely to find common ground now, thanks to the NDP list of demands.



True but if we go with the current seat projections the NDP would be fourth but still have enough to prop up a LPC minority.  They would likely have more influence as the fourth party than any of the others.  

CPC and LPC platforms are almost identical minus a few issues so finding common ground would be easy if it wasn't for personalities.  There is no way any CPC party leader would survive the backlash from their base if they ever teamed up with TEAM red. 

I've mentioned this, but a liberal minority propped up by the NDP.  Scheer steps down, someone better steps up. The LPC will likely have another scandal (they can't help themselves) enough of which that the NDP will pull their support.  It's a question of when.


----------



## ModlrMike (11 Oct 2019)

I would agree for the most part, except for the longevity of the leaders. Trudeau likely needs a majority to avoid a leadership review, Scheer does not. As I previously stated, I don't think anyone in the CPC expected Scheer to last past one election cycle.

Of course the other thing is that the CPC doesn't actually need to take Quebec to win, where the LPC does.


----------



## Journeyman (11 Oct 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> .....young people do not feel that there is anyone worth voting for.


Age isn't a factor.


----------



## Remius (11 Oct 2019)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I would agree for the most part, except for the longevity of the leaders. Trudeau likely needs a majority to avoid a leadership review, Scheer does not. As I previously stated, I don't think anyone in the CPC expected Scheer to last past one election cycle.
> 
> Of course the other thing is that the CPC doesn't actually need to take Quebec to win, where the LPC does.



One scenario might be to have Trudeau step down while they still have power.  The CPC will have a leadership race and it might take 6-12 months to sort that out.  

The CPC can't afford to lose seats in Quebec. They need Ontario BC and Alberta.  they have Alberta but not enough right now in BC or Ontario.


----------



## Good2Golf (11 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> ...The CPC will have a leadership race and it might take 6-12 months to sort that out...



I'll go out on a limb and say, "I don't think it would take that long." :nod:

Regards
G2G


----------



## Remius (11 Oct 2019)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> I'll go out on a limb and say, "I don't think it would take that long." :nod:
> 
> Regards
> G2G



Well the last one was 2 and a half years after harper stepped down.  But the CPC toyed with the idea of doing it in May 2016 which was 7 months.


----------



## Good2Golf (11 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Well the last one was 2 and a half years after harper stepped down.  But the CPC toyed with the idea of doing it in May 2016 which was 7 months.



It will likely be a minority (LPC I think), but depending on the narrowness of the margin, I think that a CPC reset ASAP will result in greater pressure on the new Government.  :2c:

Regards
G2G


----------



## Remius (11 Oct 2019)

So a quick side bar on polls. 

I've been looking at Eric Grenier's poll tracker and mostly ignore individual polls.

Nanos seems to have the Liberals too far ahead but I would point to this:

https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/politics/election/how-the-nanos-polls-stacked-up-against-the-final-election-results-1.2618950?cid=ps:localnewscampaign:searchad:ds:Ottawacrawl

I'll be curious to see how close they come this time.


----------



## Remius (11 Oct 2019)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> It will likely be a minority (LPC I think), but depending on the narrowness of the margin, I think that a CPC reset ASAP will result in greater pressure on the new Government.  :2c:
> 
> Regards
> G2G



Agreed.  I'm just not 100% sure they can get organised that quick.  I hope they do and it is what they will need to do.


----------



## Remius (11 Oct 2019)

Latest polltracker shows the LPC have lost their seat advantage as the Bloc keeps rising.

 https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/

This is one tight race to the bottom.


----------



## Brad Sallows (11 Oct 2019)

Whether the NDP might want to support a minority LPC government may be beside the point.  The magic number is 170.  Looking at Grenier's poll tracker on CBC just now, the projection for the two combined is only 164.  Add GRN and it's 168.

If the combined weight of NDP + GRN is insufficient and the government is a minority, then either the LPC or CPC allows the other to govern... or the governing party cuts deals with the Bloc, which I predict would be the kiss-of-death for the next election.


----------



## brihard (11 Oct 2019)

One disappointing ramifications of the Bloc’s climb is that it may sap the Conservative candidate in Beauce enough to give Bernier his seat. I’m really hoping to see him and his party shut out.


----------



## The Bread Guy (11 Oct 2019)

Conservative platform's out as of this afternoon (link to news release -- 103pg PDF of document here), with PBO-estimated program costs of interest around these parts attached.


----------



## daftandbarmy (11 Oct 2019)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Conservative platform's out as of this afternoon (link to news release -- 103pg PDF of document here), with PBO-estimated program costs of interest around these parts attached.



Any thoughts on how this might be different from Harper’s platform?


----------



## The Bread Guy (11 Oct 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Any thoughts on how this might be different from Harper’s platform?


At the risk of copping out, comparing election-to-election platforms can be tricky because like many plans, platforms rarely _fully_ survive contact with day-to-day politics, the economy, internal & outside events not factored into the platform when it was made, etc., no matter what team jersey's involved.  For example, ask the Ontario NDP about how "provincializing" auto insurance went on their watch.  I look at & share this stuff as just one tile (mixed with media statements, debate content, public statements & party policy/convention  papers) in the mosaic answering the question "what do you think they'll do if they take the wheel?" 

One quick & dirty example:  vets.  In 2015, the Team Red book promised "re-establish lifelong pensions", and we've seen where that went - can't afford you right now, sorry.  In 2011, Team Blue's book bragged about passing "the Enhanced New Veterans Charter Act," and we saw where that went - litigation.

For anyone wanting to do a deeper dive, though, here's Team Blue's 2015 platform document, and here's their 2011 platform document.


----------



## Halifax Tar (12 Oct 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Any thoughts on how this might be different from Harper’s platform?



Should it be ?


----------



## Retired AF Guy (12 Oct 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> One disappointing ramifications of the Bloc’s climb is that it may sap the Conservative candidate in Beauce enough to give Bernier his seat. I’m really hoping to see him and his party shut out.



Interestingly, I was talking with one of my co-workers yesterday and she stated that she was thinking of voting for the PPC. Also stated that many of her friends are thinking about doing the same. And as an aside I'm seeing more PPC party signs here in Kingston than Green Party signs.


----------



## ModlrMike (12 Oct 2019)

The National Post, but not the CBC is carrying a story about CBC suing the CPC.

If there was no pubic perception of bias before, there certainly might be now.

*corrected now that the story is up on CBC.

Interesting that they're not allowing comments.


----------



## The Bread Guy (12 Oct 2019)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Should it be ?


Did the Liberals used the same cookie-cutter platform before and after 9-11?  Broad strokes and philosophy may not change much from election to election, but ground truth can change a lot between ballots.


----------



## The Bread Guy (12 Oct 2019)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> The National Post, but not the CBC is carrying a story about CBC suing the CPC.


They are now (~30 minutes before this post) ...


> The CBC is taking the Conservative Party of Canada to court for using the broadcaster's footage in an online advertisement.
> 
> In a legal application to the Federal Court of Canada, the CBC served notice it wants the Conservative Party of Canada and its executive director, Dustin Van Vugt, to acknowledge the party "engaged in the unauthorized use of copyright-protected material."
> 
> ...


Statement of claim here (19 pages).
op:


----------



## daftandbarmy (12 Oct 2019)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> They are now (~30 minutes before this post) ...Statement of claim here (19 pages).
> op:



I'm glad they're using our tax dollars to sue a national political party  :sarcasm:


----------



## Blackadder1916 (12 Oct 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I'm glad they're using our tax dollars to sue a national political party  :sarcasm:



I'm glad they're using our tax dollars to sue a national political party who illegally used copyrighted material  [: no sarcasm]


----------



## Good2Golf (12 Oct 2019)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> I'm glad they're using our tax dollars to sue a national political party who allegedly illegally used copyrighted material  [: no sarcasm]



TFTFY  [/no sarcasm]


----------



## ballz (12 Oct 2019)

Be a real shame if the ad was still circulating.........

https://twitter.com/HoCStaffer/status/1182822717650800645


----------



## The Bread Guy (12 Oct 2019)

Interesting case ...

If I was Team Blue's lawyer, I'd say, _"since Elections Canada says, 'If a news clip is relatively short and is not a substantial part of the audiovisual work from which it was taken, the broadcast of the news clip in a political ad would not infringe the copyright of the owner of the audiovisual work and would not require the permission of that owner to be broadcast. Accordingly, during the election period, broadcasters are not entitled to refuse to broadcast a political ad containing a news clip that is not a substantial part of the original broadcast,'_, and the bits of video/audio come from a variety of programs, this doesn't constitute use of a substantial part of ANY original broadcast." 

Then again, if the CBC lets its clips be used by Team Red against Team Blue or Team Orange, would they then be labelled the "anyone but Liberal" network (more than they already are)?  Other broadcast material from other outlets also seems to be used in the same video -- wonder if they're lawyering up now?

op:


----------



## Remius (12 Oct 2019)

Latest poll tracker has the CPC with the seat advantage for the first time.

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/

But with billions in cuts in their recently released platform can they keep their lead?


----------



## Halifax Tar (13 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Latest poll tracker has the CPC with the seat advantage for the first time.
> 
> https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/
> 
> But with billions in cuts in their recently released platform can they keep their lead?



Which cuts do you mean ?


----------



## Jarnhamar (13 Oct 2019)

[quote author=Remius]

But with billions in cuts in their recently released platform can they keep their lead?
[/quote]

I read that in the voice of Morgan Freeman.


----------



## PuckChaser (13 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> But with billions in cuts in their recently released platform can they keep their lead?



You're right. He's cutting:

Taxes on income under $47K
Carbon Tax
GST on Home Heating
Gov income tax revenues due to Green Home/Green Transit/Volunteer/Child Fitness/Maternity Benefits/Children's Arts
Gov revenues from Small business tax changes/income sprinkling to spouses
Sewage dumping into lakes/rivers by municpalities
Fees to enter national museums
Ability of government to hide by Cabinet Confidence to block RCMP investigations
The cap on privately sponsored refugees
Spending at Asian Infrastructure Bank
Foreign aid to wealthy countries
Corporate bailouts

But I mean, don't let the actual platform: https://cpc-platform.s3.ca-central-1.amazonaws.com/CPC_Platform_8.5x11_FINAL_EN_OCT11_web.pdf and the full PBO costing: https://www.pbo-dpb.gc.ca/en/epc-estimates


----------



## Remius (13 Oct 2019)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Which cuts do you mean ?



Highlights are here.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/scheer-conservative-platform-unveiled-1.5318850





			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I read that in the voice of Morgan Freeman.



I said it in his voice.


----------



## ballz (13 Oct 2019)

Interesting that right now it's possible that whoever "wins" the election might have a minority so weak that it may need the support of not one but two other parties.

Right now 338Canada has the Libs/Cons at about 135-136 seats a piece. The Bloc/NDP are 30-32 each. So one major party propped up by a minor party may not be enough.

You very well could see a situation where government is formed by a major party (Lib/Cons) + a minor party (Bloc/NDP) + the rest (Greens/Max Bernier/independents).


This could be a very short-lived government....


----------



## daftandbarmy (13 Oct 2019)

ballz said:
			
		

> Interesting that right now it's possible that whoever "wins" the election might have a minority so weak that it may need the support of not one but two other parties.
> 
> Right now 338Canada has the Libs/Cons at about 135-136 seats a piece. The Bloc/NDP are 30-32 each. So one major party propped up by a minor party may not be enough.
> 
> ...



You’ve just described BC. Sadly, the NDP-Green marriage of convenience still limps along after more than a year...


----------



## ModlrMike (13 Oct 2019)

I'm not sure I agree with your assessment. The NDP has pretty much ruled out working with anyone. Explicitly the Torries, but implicit in their demands they have also ruled out the Libs. The Bloc is poison to both CPC and Libs. I envision a minority government made up of the two larger parties rather than one including the Bloc or NDP. If the Liberals are foolish enough to court the NDP, then expect more runaway deficits to fund the pharmacare, student debt, etc.


----------



## ballz (13 Oct 2019)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I'm not sure I agree with your assessment. The NDP has pretty much ruled out working with anyone. Explicitly the Torries, but implicit in their demands they have also ruled out the Libs. The Bloc is poison to both CPC and Libs. I envision a minority government made up of the two larger parties rather than one including the Bloc or NDP. If the Liberals are foolish enough to court the NDP, then expect more runaway deficits to fund the pharmacare, student debt, etc.



I would expect anything but the Libs and Cons working together but I guess we'll see. In fact if they do, I might have to recuse myself from living in this country anymore. Trudeau is the biggest threat to basic democracy / individual rights I could have ever imagined 4 years ago, if their main opponent starts working with them for political expediency we're ****ed. It will confirm there's not a shred of principle left in Ottawa, and I know we say that all the time, but this is different.

I know the NDP said that, but the Cons and Libs are hardly different at this point, if the NDP can force the Cons to take a tighter approach on the environment the NDP can call it a major victory... and everyone will forget or stop caring within a week that Mr. Singh said he wouldn't work with the Cons.


----------



## mariomike (13 Oct 2019)

Individuals interested in retirement, pension and financial support for seniors may find this of interest,



> Global News
> October 12, 2019
> 
> Federal election 2019: What’s in it for seniors?
> ...



That's pretty much on track with the Municipal Retirees Organization Ontario - MROO. ( MROO represents OMERS pensioners. )


----------



## Jarnhamar (13 Oct 2019)

[quote author=Remius]
Talking while you type is what actors do


----------



## The Bread Guy (13 Oct 2019)

A four-pager from the U.S. Congressional Research Service on the upcoming Canadian election attached - here's the bit on NORAD from "Potential Implications" ...


> In 2017, Prime Minister Trudeau and President Trump agreed to modernize and broaden the binational NORAD command, charged with defending U.S. and Canadian airspace and monitoring potential aerospace and maritime threats to North America. The Liberal government also adopted a new defense policythat will increase nominal defense spending by 73% over the next decade to acquire new equipment and capabilities. Nevertheless, it has been slow to modernize Canada’s fleet of aging fighter aircraft, leading some analysts to question whether Canada will be able to meet its NORAD commitments. Conservative leader Scheer has pledged to strengthen U.S.-Canadian defense ties by seeking to join the U.S. ballistic missile defense program and ensuring fighters selected through a new procurement process are interoperable with those of the United States.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (13 Oct 2019)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> A four-pager from the U.S. Congressional Research Service on the upcoming Canadian election attached - here's the bit on NORAD from "Potential Implications" ...



Pretty good analysis I must say.


----------



## Jarnhamar (14 Oct 2019)

I wanted to feel old so I checked out Reddits Canadian politics forums.Pretty interesting to read about how they see Conservatives.

Lots of the posters, I'd say majority, seem to think the Conservatives are going to ban gay marriage, make abortions illegal, cut spending to school and education (with a number thinking post secondary education should be free), ban immigrants from coming into Canada, force the catholic church on everyone and on and on.

It seems like they're so terrified of this image of what the conservatives would do that they would vote for a pineapple to keep the conservatives out.


----------



## BeyondTheNow (14 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I wanted to feel old so I checked out Reddits Canadian politics forums.Pretty interesting to read about how they see Conservatives.
> 
> Lots of the posters, I'd say majority, seem to think the Conservatives are going to ban gay marriage, make abortions illegal, cut spending to school and education (with a number thinking post secondary education should be free), ban immigrants from coming into Canada, force the catholic church on everyone and on and on.
> 
> It seems like they're so terrified of this image of what the conservatives would do that they would vote for a pineapple to keep the conservatives out.



Wonder where they could possibly be getting such an outrageous idea... :


----------



## Jarnhamar (14 Oct 2019)

Do you think the Conservatives plan to ban gay marriage and make abortion illegal?


----------



## Haggis (14 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Do you think the Conservatives plan to ban gay marriage and make abortion illegal?



The short answer is "no".  Scheer has already come out (see what I did there) to state that he will respect the existing laws of the land and will vote against any motions by his MPs to reopen the abortion debate.  He did not, however, explicitly state that he will not allow any Conservative MPs to table motions to reopen the abortion debate or change the legality of gay marriages.

Hardcore Christian fundamentalist "conservatives" *in the US* have made significant headway in banning gay marriage and making abortion illegal.  Once again the left draws convenient parallels between Canadian and US politics.

Conversely, I'm surprised that the other parties, notably those who are pro-choice,  have not reminded Canadians about the now-defunct Canada Summer Jobs program abortion rights requirement.


----------



## BeyondTheNow (14 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Do you think the Conservatives plan to ban gay marriage and make abortion illegal?



Their “plans” as a collective party don’t really matter in the eyes of some younger voters. Instead, what they see, hear and read from individual candidates is what forms their idea of what direction the party is likely to (try and) take the nation.

If a candidate is openly vocal in a multitude of private and public settings about topics they view as rights and/or privileges for all CDN citizens, and their respective party seemingly supports/upholds their viewpoints without question or condemnation of any kind, then those same voters are essentially automatically going to assume that the party as a whole will be directly in line with the opinions expressed. (And, btw, the same goes for the Liberals et. al.)

Ultimately, many young voters (and some old voters too) aren’t interested in doing thorough and lengthy research on their own. They will form their opinions based solely on the most easily accessible excerpts of information flashed in front of them. And unfortunately, when candidates choose to blur the lines between their personal beliefs vs their party’s ideology and what is in the best interests of all Canadians, then everyone loses.


----------



## mariomike (14 Oct 2019)

For what it is worth to the discussion, this Ipsos report of voting intentions caught my eye. 4 October 2019.
https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/news-polls/Significant-Gender-Gap-in-Voting-Intentions-Among-Younger-Canadians

Females age 18-34: 
CPC 24% 

Males age 18-34:
CPC 31%

May not determine who gets in. 

But, it seems to indicate the CPC has a rather significant gender gap among young Canadian voters.


----------



## PuckChaser (14 Oct 2019)

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> Their “plans” as a collective party don’t really matter in the eyes of some younger voters. Instead, what they see, hear and read from individual candidates is what forms their idea of what direction the party is likely to (try and) take the nation.
> 
> If a candidate is openly vocal in a multitude of private and public settings about topics they view as rights and/or privileges for all CDN citizens, and their respective party seemingly supports/upholds their viewpoints without question or condemnation of any kind, then those same voters are essentially automatically going to assume that the party as a whole will be directly in line with the opinions expressed. (And, btw, the same goes for the Liberals et. al.)
> 
> Ultimately, many young voters (and some old voters too) aren’t interested in doing thorough and lengthy research on their own. They will form their opinions based solely on the most easily accessible excerpts of information flashed in front of them. And unfortunately, when candidates choose to blur the lines between their personal beliefs vs their party’s ideology and what is in the best interests of all Canadians, then everyone loses.



Or when all you hear in the media is a full court press of evil Conservatives wanting to turn Canada into a Theocracy, then young people believe it.

Fortunately, that theory doesn't hold water when you realize the boogeyman Stephen Harper was in power for 9 years, (2 majorities) and had a Conservative Senate and yet not a single restriction in gay marriage, abortion or forced religion on anyone.


----------



## Jarnhamar (14 Oct 2019)

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> Their “plans” as a collective party don’t really matter in the eyes of some younger voters. Instead, what they see, hear and read from individual candidates is what forms their idea of what direction the party is likely to (try and) take the nation.





Ever insightful, miss Now 

Mostly agree with you. No one researches enough anymore, if at all. We collectively read something, believe it, and launch an outraged tirade about it.

When it comes to young voters they seem extremely susceptible to group think and peer pressure these days. Seem to lack critical thinking. Reading it on Facebook or Twitter is a viable source.  I'm not sure how to articulate it very well but there's a zombie like behavior of following 'whats in'. Someone snorts a condom up their nose and guess what, it's trending. Video tape yourself getting out of a moving car and dancing on the road. Stuff like that. All kinds of stupid shit. It's like an overwhelming desire to be noticed or have some kind of impact or affect. The attention span seems to be pretty low and they move on to the next trending thing pretty quick.

The stuff being regurgitated as fact on reddit is crazy, but I guess mission accomplished for whoever is pushing the disinformation.


----------



## daftandbarmy (14 Oct 2019)

Kind of like "Ew, get away...." 

Trudeau dodges question of Liberal-NDP coalition while Scheer rallies against

https://globalnews.ca/news/6030766/liberal-ndp-coalition-election/


----------



## brihard (14 Oct 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Kind of like "Ew, get away...."
> 
> Trudeau dodges question of Liberal-NDP coalition while Scheer rallies against
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6030766/liberal-ndp-coalition-election/



I remember in 2008 when the discussion of a coalition came up. It’s something the Liberals will very much not want to be associated with. Granted my sample was a bunch of 19-22 troops overseas who couldn’t define ‘bicameral’ and whose ability to articulate their position was limited to putting their Velcro flags upside down on their uniform, but suffice to say it was a notion many were distinctly unhappy with.

Objectively it makes sense to the NDP to open the doors to the option. It makes sense to the LPC to keep those same doors firmly shut short of serious desperation.


----------



## BeyondTheNow (14 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Ever insightful, miss Now



‘Not sure of the intent here, but as I rarely wade into politics threads as it is, in the future I’d appreciate no further “miss”, “mrs” or “ms” preceding any adjective, noun or verb you may think appropriate. I can’t seem to recall any similar-styled interactions with any political thread regulars in the recent past. (And I’m not about to go looking for them.) It ain’t cute. 



> ...The stuff being regurgitated as fact on reddit is crazy, but I guess mission accomplished for whoever is pushing the disinformation.



Agreed—dis & misinformation alike.



			
				PuckChaser said:
			
		

> ...Stephen Harper was in power for 9 years, (2 majorities) and had a Conservative Senate and yet not a single restriction in gay marriage, abortion or forced religion on anyone.



True, although there’s still other reasons for certain groups to find fault with him...mainly the 13% reduction at one point from the defence budget at a time when we still needed those dollars. But that’s a different matter altogether...


----------



## Jarnhamar (14 Oct 2019)

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> ‘Not sure of the intent here, but as I rarely wade into politics threads as it is, in the future I’d appreciate no further “miss”, “mrs” or “ms” preceding any adjective, noun or verb you may think appropriate. I can’t seem to recall any similar-styled interactions with any political thread regulars in the recent past. (And I’m not about to go looking for them.) It ain’t cute.



I thought your post was very insightful and level headed as I do most if not all of your posts. I can only apologize and assure you I'll stick to specifically to your username in future.


[quote author=PuckChaser]

Fortunately, that theory doesn't hold water when you realize the boogeyman Stephen Harper was in power for 9 years, (2 majorities) and had a Conservative Senate and yet not a single restriction in gay marriage, abortion or forced religion on anyone.
[/quote]

Lots of fear mongering. Not a lot of substance to the crying and fears. The common response when I ask for examples or sources seems to be "**ck you nazi", probably while they wear Che Guevara T-shirts.


----------



## BeyondTheNow (14 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I thought your post was very insightful and level headed as I do most if not all of your posts. I can only apologize and assure you I'll stick to specifically to your username in future.



Thank you on all counts. I very much appreciate it.


----------



## Remius (14 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Lots of fear mongering. Not a lot of substance to the crying and fears. The common response when I ask for examples or sources seems to be "**ck you nazi", probably while they wear Che Guevara T-shirts.



I saw someone on social media bring up the LPC plan to ban certain firearms.  It turned into a gang up asking the guy why he needed automatic weapons.  No one brought up automatic weapons except the mob.  The guy was quite level headed and attempted to argue his point.  He was called a nazi for it. 

On another social media platform there is a fake news story about Trudeau and a rumoured affair that has gotten to the point of stupidity.  When it was shown that there was zero evidence it turned into a tin foil party with accusations of coverups and the media being shut down and payoffs to the individual in question.  

This is what it’s gotten to.  Sad. 

I voted on Friday.  I picked the guy I liked best at the riding level.

The only consolation for me is that I will likely get my wish and we will have a minority.  This hopefully will purge the two current leaders of the big two.


----------



## Jarnhamar (14 Oct 2019)

What did you like about him?


----------



## Remius (14 Oct 2019)

Seems likeable.  

Is a good representative of the community.  Volunteers, is a former public servant and is now a teacher.  Has a family and seems to relate more to the community than the incumbent.  

I will be honest, my decision came down to the wire.


----------



## Jarnhamar (14 Oct 2019)

[quote author=Remius] 

I will be honest, my decision came down to the wire. 
[/quote]

You didn't exactly come off that way, kind of seemed like your mind was set from the start. But I'm sure I'm wrong, glad you found someone you liked. Hopefully they don't support confiscation private property and don't make excuses for racist behavior etc..etc..


----------



## mariomike (14 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Seems likeable.



They say, "Politics is just show business for ugly people."

And in show business they say, "Likeability is 90% of the battle."  

Thankfully, in this country, no one has a right to tell you how to vote.


----------



## daftandbarmy (15 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Seems likeable.
> 
> Is a good representative of the community.  Volunteers, is a former public servant and is now a teacher.  Has a family and seems to relate more to the community than the incumbent.
> 
> I will be honest, my decision came down to the wire.



Sooooo .... sounds like about a 100% better choice than any of the TEN (10) choices in my riding.

Seriously, ten people on a ballot does no one any favours. And none of them were superstars... or even average stars.


----------



## MilEME09 (15 Oct 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I remember in 2008 when the discussion of a coalition came up. It’s something the Liberals will very much not want to be associated with. Granted my sample was a bunch of 19-22 troops overseas who couldn’t define ‘bicameral’ and whose ability to articulate their position was limited to putting their Velcro flags upside down on their uniform, but suffice to say it was a notion many were distinctly unhappy with.
> 
> Objectively it makes sense to the NDP to open the doors to the option. It makes sense to the LPC to keep those same doors firmly shut short of serious desperation.



For the libs, being open to it will be admitting they do not think they can win a majority. Now here is a scary thought what if a vote split happens on both sides (right and left) and we end with a 4 way hung parliament?


----------



## brihard (15 Oct 2019)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> For the libs, being open to it will be admitting they do not think they can win a majority. Now here is a scary thought what if a vote split happens on both sides (right and left) and we end with a 4 way hung parliament?



Not too worried about it. Any vote splitting on the right will be in favour of the Bloc. Left will be mainly Liberals / NDP. These are familiar dynamics, it’s just been a few years. I don’t fear vote splitting nor minorities. Greens will pick up a handful, Bernier maybe one. If JWR retains her seat she would probably support the LPC in most matters.

Whoever ends up heading up the minority will just need to play a weird game that we’ve been lacking for quite some time, called ‘building concensus’. We could use a couple minority governments, it might humble up some knuckleheads.


----------



## Journeyman (15 Oct 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Seriously, ten people on a ballot does no one any favours. And none of them were superstars... or even average stars.


My riding has five;  one is a black hole (or some kind of 'hole'), rather than even an average star.    :


This just registered:


			
				Remius said:
			
		

> > What did you like about him?
> 
> 
> Seems likeable.


:rofl:
Flashbacks to some blogger that 1 or 2 people cite routinely, who 'provides insight...because he's insightful.'


----------



## mariomike (15 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Hopefully they don't support confiscation private property and don't make excuses for racist behavior etc..etc..



Regarding race,



> Even before #brownface, the 2019 federal election was always about race
> 
> A sitting prime minister who just admitted to multiple incidents of brownface, despite touting Canada’s multiculturalism and diversity on the world stage.
> 
> ...



And gender,



> NDP, 49 percent women candidates
> 
> Green, 47 percent women/non-binary/trans candidates
> 
> ...


----------



## Halifax Tar (15 Oct 2019)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Regarding race, And gender,



Are we really at the point where the racial and/or gender make up of parties and candidates matters ?  

We are getting closer and closer to idiocracy every day...


----------



## mariomike (15 Oct 2019)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Are we really at the point where the racial and/or gender make up of parties and candidates matters ?



Maybe to some,



			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Hopefully they don't support confiscation private property and don't make excuses for racist behavior etc..etc..


----------



## Retired AF Guy (15 Oct 2019)

A couple interesting tweets from Warren Kinsella:



> Warren Kinsella
> ‏Verified account @kinsellawarren
> 2 hours ago
> 
> ...






> Warren Kinsella
> ‏Verified account @kinsellawarren
> Oct 14
> 
> ...



 Link


----------



## Furniture (15 Oct 2019)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Are we really at the point where the racial and/or gender make up of parties and candidates matters ?
> 
> We are getting closer and closer to idiocracy every day...



Not just racial minorities as a general count, but looking into whether they are the correct racial minority or not. Notice they specified how many were of black, and indigenous ancestry apart from the percentage of minorities.


----------



## Cloud Cover (15 Oct 2019)

Calculatedpolitics has Libs reclaiming most seats, Cons still holding greater vote share and the BQ-NDP revving up.


----------



## Jarnhamar (15 Oct 2019)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Maybe to some,



Racist behavior is quite different from race metrics.


----------



## PuckChaser (15 Oct 2019)

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> Calculatedpolitics has Libs reclaiming most seats, Cons still holding greater vote share and the BQ-NDP revving up.



This could be an incredibly interesting result. I don't recall in modern history where a party hasn't won more seats but had a larger share of the popular vote. I wonder if the left will be crying for the end of first past the post if they get their way?


----------



## Cloud Cover (15 Oct 2019)

It would be especially odd if a second orange crush of the Liberals occurs, this time  outside of Quebec. Another good one would be what if Singh gets more seats than Trudeau, enough to form and head a coalition ...


----------



## stellarpanther (15 Oct 2019)

I don't understand why this thing is as close as it seems.  Four years ago people couldn't stand the CPC and Harper and all ran to the Liberals.  Now it's neck and neck with the Liberals and Harper 2.0.  What's wrong with voters?  They don't seem to know what the hell they want.  I also think it's stupid for anyone to waste their vote on the Bloc or Greens or any of those other parties that don't have a change in hell to win.


----------



## mariomike (15 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> I picked the guy I liked best at the riding level.



They say all politics is local.


----------



## Cloud Cover (15 Oct 2019)

It's a sign that the country is doing so well that nobody can decide what a key election issue might be that every Canadian would vote one way or the other about it. 

Free trade, deficits and health care used to mean something big in elections. Now it's what's your privilege to guilt ratio, a cheque for you, you and you, etc.


----------



## Halifax Tar (15 Oct 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I don't understand why this thing is as close as it seems.  Four years ago people couldn't stand the CPC and Harper and all ran to the Liberals.  Now it's neck and neck with the Liberals and Harper 2.0.  What's wrong with voters?  They don't seem to know what the hell they want.  I also think it's stupid for anyone to waste their vote on the Bloc or Greens or any of those other parties that don't have a change in hell to win.



I hypothesize that myself and many others were duped by Trudeau and bought into the "boogey man" tales about Harper.  I am very regretful about that vote I cast in 2015 and won’t make that mistake ever again.  I miss Harper.


----------



## Remius (15 Oct 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I don't understand why this thing is as close as it seems.  Four years ago people couldn't stand the CPC and Harper and all ran to the Liberals.  Now it's neck and neck with the Liberals and Harper 2.0.  What's wrong with voters?  They don't seem to know what the hell they want.  I also think it's stupid for anyone to waste their vote on the Bloc or Greens or any of those other parties that don't have a change in hell to win.



Or maybe they know exactly what they don't want.

The Harper gvt suffered from fatigue after 10 years and people wanted change. 

Things they didn't want: Hypocrisy, racist acts, different rules for the leader than anyone else, scandals, law breaking and more importantly they wanted someone who was going to do what he said he would do.  A few things could be forgiven but now contrast that to those third and fourth place parties and they start to look good. 

If you are a Quebecer maybe they think they can influence more at the federal level with a strong bloc in a minority situation with either liberals or the CPC.  Same with the NDP.  Universal healthcare came about that way. 

if you don't understand why it is this close then you haven't been paying attention.


----------



## mariomike (15 Oct 2019)

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> It's a sign that the country is doing so well that nobody can decide what a key election issue might be that every Canadian would vote one way or the other about it.



Our union and pensioner association follow a simple philosophy in supporting candidates – they support those who support us. Regardless of party affiliation or political leanings.


----------



## The Bread Guy (15 Oct 2019)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> I hypothesize that myself and many others were duped by Trudeau and bought into the "boogey man" tales about Harper.


... combined with a dose of "a lot of PM's get old to the electorate, no matter what team jersey they wear, after a certain amount of time, even if they weren't all that bad."

Meanwhile, on the extreme left, the International Committee of the Fourth International (ICFI) seems to think the NDP's promising to spend too much on the military ...


> ... The rightwing character of the NDP is exemplified by the sections of its federal election platform, “A New Deal for People,” that outline its proposals for the military and foreign policy.
> 
> While chock full of pseudo-progressive rhetoric about “human rights,” making Canada a “force for peace,” and promoting “gender equality,” the platform champions a pro-war, militarist agenda. It advocates spending tens of billions of dollars on equipping Canada’s military with new battleships, fighter jets and other high-tech weaponry, paving the way to turn workers and young people into cannon fodder for Canadian imperialism in foreign wars and future great-power conflicts.
> 
> ...


----------



## Good2Golf (15 Oct 2019)

The “rightwing” character of the NDP?

Wow!


----------



## MilEME09 (15 Oct 2019)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> The “rightwing” character of the NDP?
> 
> Wow!



Atleast the NDP isn't 100% on the crack pipe like these people are, the NDP's platform is very vague on defense, for good reason probably. In all honesty I'd rather give someone new a chance then expect a different result from the same two lemons we always get.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (15 Oct 2019)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> The “rightwing” character of the NDP?
> 
> Wow!



Someone has been drinking too much cool-aid.


----------



## mariomike (15 Oct 2019)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Are we really at the point where the racial and/or gender make up of parties and candidates matters ?



I just know what I read in the papers,



> The Canadian Press
> Global News
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6027466/canada-election-diversity-of-candidates/


----------



## The Bread Guy (15 Oct 2019)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Someone has been drinking too much cool-aid.


Keep in mind just how left wing the Socialist Equality Party, which these guys are the info-machine for, say they are ...


> ... The program of the Socialist Equality Party starts not with what capitalism can “afford,” but with what the working class requires. Our program is not tailored to what small-minded opportunists and pragmatists may consider immediately “achievable.” What can or cannot be achieved, in any given situation, is determined in struggle. Those not prepared to fight will never win anything.
> 
> The SEP insists that everyone has basic social rights, necessary for life in a complex modern society. We demand that everyone have access to a job with a livable income, that health care and education must be provided as a social right. Young people have the right to a future, and we demand the abolition of student debt. We call for the immediate withdrawal of all US troops from wherever they are stationed abroad, and an end to the drive by the ruling class to restructure the world in its interests. We call for the defense of democratic rights, and the abolition of the police-state infrastructure built up under both Bush and Obama.
> 
> The demands raised by the SEP are not separate from the goal of socialist revolution. Rather, each demand by its very nature raises a challenge to the material interests of the corporate aristocrats. As they encounter the resistance of corporations and the capitalist state to their legitimate demands, working people will see ever more clearly the need for the revolutionary transformation of society. The fight for these demands strengthens the working class, unifies its disparate struggles, and in each case poses the necessity of taking political power and establishing socialism in the United States, as part of the socialist reorganization of the world economy ...


More here if you want to check out the rest of what sounds a lot like the old Cold War Communist Party narrative.  If they really believe what they say, I can see why the NDP isn't _quite_ socialist enough for their taste. In his day, even Jack Layton was dinged by different splinters about supporting the troops TOO much.


----------



## Jarnhamar (15 Oct 2019)

[quote author=stellarpanther]  I also think it's stupid for anyone to waste their vote on the Bloc or Greens or any of those other parties that don't have a change in hell to win.
[/quote]

It seems what you're really saying is you think it's stupid for someone to vote for anyone other than the Liberals.


----------



## brihard (15 Oct 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I don't understand why this thing is as close as it seems.  Four years ago people couldn't stand the CPC and Harper and all ran to the Liberals.  Now it's neck and neck with the Liberals and Harper 2.0.  What's wrong with voters?  They don't seem to know what the hell they want.  I also think it's stupid for anyone to waste their vote on the Bloc or Greens or any of those other parties that don't have a change in hell to win.



I think nobody expected both of the two main contenders to suck this profoundly.

Recognize that with regards to the Bloc, Quebecers don’t see their votes as at all wasted. The Bloc puts a potentially significant number of MPs in the House of Commons. Conceivably they could offer a balance of power. That allows the province to punch well above its weight of seat counts align. The Bloc could extract considerable concessions for propping up a minority.

With current seat projections, we face a very real possibility of either a Liberal or Conservative minority, where either the Bloc or the NDP could each potentially hold enough seats to prop up the minority.


----------



## Jarnhamar (15 Oct 2019)

Looks like Trudeau was wearing a bullet proof vest at a campaign stop in Mississauga (no one told him how safe it really is). 

Sounds like PMO staffers (allegedly) told the RCMP what to bring, what to wear and how to wear it. 
Guess they wanted to ramp up some kind of narrative, wonder what that could be. 



> * RCMP source says ‘security risk’ against Trudeau was contrived by PMO staffers*
> 
> A retired officer of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, who remains in frequent communication with senior figures inside the federal agency, is telling The Chronicle that the widely publicized ‘security threat’ against Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on Saturday night in Mississauga was “largely contrived by political staffers” inside the PMO.
> 
> Hoping to elicit sympathy in the national political discourse, senior PMO staffers actively instructed the RCMP on which equipment and weaponry to have present, which uniforms protective officers would wear, and which security precautions would be taken at the private invitation-only Liberal Party event.



https://buffalochronicle.com/2019/10/15/rcmp-source-says-security-risk-against-trudeau-was-contrived-by-pmo-staffers/


----------



## mariomike (15 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> https://buffalochronicle.com/2019/10/15/rcmp-source-says-security-risk-against-trudeau-was-contrived-by-pmo-staffers/



Regarding the source. Media Bias / Fact Check had this to say,
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-buffalo-chronicle/


----------



## The Bread Guy (15 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> https://buffalochronicle.com/2019/10/15/rcmp-source-says-security-risk-against-trudeau-was-contrived-by-pmo-staffers/


Have we seen the injunction against the _Globe & Mail_ the Buffalo Chronicle helped spread the word about earlier in the election cycle?  I'll wait ...  Meanwhile, while titillating, I'll wait for something firmer to confirm.


----------



## Remius (15 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Looks like Trudeau was wearing a bullet proof vest at a campaign stop in Mississauga (no one told him how safe it really is).
> 
> Sounds like PMO staffers (allegedly) told the RCMP what to bring, what to wear and how to wear it.
> Guess they wanted to ramp up some kind of narrative, wonder what that could be.
> ...



First off that isn’t how it works.

Second, Buffalo Chronicle is a terrible source for real news.  There is the injunction story, the affair story and the Trudeau getting divorced story.  This is making some rounds on social media.  None corroborated at all.  

You would think that with all the crap Trudeau has actually done that people would not have to resort to fake stories.


----------



## Jarnhamar (15 Oct 2019)

CBC's take

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5319953


Bullet proof vest. 
RCMP "heavily armed tactical team in full sight" surrounding the PM.

Whats the play here?
Radical Conservatives are a threat to the PM?
We need to ban assault weapons because they're all over the place?
Credible but secret threat but brave Trudeau puts his life at risk to talk to the good people of Mississauga?

Must have been some threat, or some next level show business.


----------



## Jarnhamar (15 Oct 2019)

[quote author=Remius] 
First off that isn’t how it works.[/QUOTE] 

Trudeau has a habit of doing whatever he wants. 

It wouldn't be the first time he's put on a show.


----------



## Remius (15 Oct 2019)

Do you seriously think that the RCMP protective detail and tactical squad would allow itself to be a political prop?


----------



## stellarpanther (15 Oct 2019)

Any guess what it means that record numbers of people are voting in the advanced polls and who does this usually benefit?


----------



## Remius (15 Oct 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Any guess what it means that record numbers of people are voting in the advanced polls and who does this usually benefit?



Could be anything.  Any guess is as good as another.

Maybe people were fed up with Trudeau’s antics.

Maybe people were scared he might not get re elected

Maybe people preferred the convenience of voting over a long weekend

We likely won’t know until the results are in.

I voted ahead of time to avoid the Election Day rush.


----------



## Jarnhamar (15 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Do you seriously think that the RCMP protective detail and tactical squad would allow itself to be a political prop?



Maybe. Probably not. 

I had to put on a dog and pony show for some NDP and green party MP's.  I said no. Wanna guess how that turned out?  ;D

But forgetting that source in the story then, don't you think the situation is a little weird? Doesn't it look like it can be a little bit on the theatrical side to you? 

Trudeau's first concern was his family and the crowd. So he told his wife not to come, put on a bullet proof vest, then met the crowd....

Sorry but acting is the PM's thing and they're getting desperate. Im just surprised no one asked him how quantum computers worked.


----------



## Remius (15 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Maybe. Probably not.
> 
> I had to put on a dog and pony show for some NDP and green party MP's.  I said no. Wanna guess how that turned out?  ;D
> 
> ...



I don’t think it is weird that the PM gets threats.  It probably happens daily.  

It isn’t impossible that maybe he received a credible threat that the RCMP assessed and took steps to have a show of force. 

Given the crap I have seen on social media I’m not shocked.  And to be honest this is election is so polarized I would have no doubt that some kook would try something or threaten to. 

We’ve had a gunman rush parliament hill looking for the PM.
We’ve had a guy break into the PM’s residence.  
we’ve had people throw pies at politicians. 

Not everything is a conspiracy.  Sometimes the RCMP, tasked with the protection of The PM does its job based on the info it has.  And maybe they weren’t taking any chances.  Maybe they did a proper threat assessment and took those steps.  From the limited contact I have had with those guys, they don’t mess around and they take their jobs seriously.


----------



## Jarnhamar (15 Oct 2019)

Some pretty sound counter points.

Guess I figured if the PMO would try to intimidate and bully the attorney general into doing what the PMO wanted anything was possible. 
But maybe it wasn't a conspiracy, this time 

I'm just pretty pumped that it looks like I probably won't have my property confiscated.


----------



## Remius (15 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I'm just pretty pumped that it looks like I probably won't have my property confiscated.



Rightfully so.  I’ve argued with people that that particular platform piece is a legit reason for those affected to not vote liberal.


----------



## brihard (15 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> I don’t think it is weird that the PM gets threats.  It probably happens daily.
> 
> It isn’t impossible that maybe he received a credible threat that the RCMP assessed and took steps to have a show of force.
> 
> ...



Yup. This basically summed it up right there. The PM and staffers decides where he’s going and what he’s doing. The RCMP don’t get a veto; they simply have the responsibility of providing the protection, whatever that entails. Politics don’t enter that particular equation. Threats to the safety of the PM and some other government/senior officials are a constant reality.


----------



## Jarnhamar (16 Oct 2019)

Does the PMO have any influence in the RCMP dress state, covert/overt nature of the protection detail?


----------



## brihard (16 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Does the PMO have any influence in the RCMP dress state, covert/overt nature of the protection detail?



I’m not qualified to say with confidence a 100% hard no, but everything I’ve learned about this crew convinces me strongly that operational decisions like that are 100% a protective function. The only times I’ve seen or heard of influence wielded in a protective setting is for the protectee pushing for a lower, less visible protective posture than the protective crew might want; politicians and other protected generally want security to be quite low key. Bodyguard details are a pain in the ass for the principal. A political flunkie is definitely NOT able to whistle up a tactical team to assume a posture that the commander of the police element thinks is inappropriately overt or forceful. Certainly not in the federal realm.

I do know the PMPD guys and girls are working their asses off. I bet they can’t wait for this to be over.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (16 Oct 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I don't understand why this thing is as close as it seems.  Four years ago people couldn't stand the CPC and Harper and all ran to the Liberals.  Now it's neck and neck with the Liberals and Harper 2.0.  What's wrong with voters?  They don't seem to know what the hell they want.  I also think it's stupid for anyone to waste their vote on the Bloc or Greens or any of those other parties that don't have a change in hell to win.



Nothings wrong with the voters. I would argue the main reason the 2015 election went the way it did wasn't even because it was Harper vs. Trudeau, rather because it was pot legalization vs not legalization. The youth vote came out to support the Liberals last time around. Now that they have what they wanted as long as marijuana isn't made into a election issue again, I predict they really don't care enough to vote again.


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Oct 2019)

Brihard, in no way second guessing PMPD’s reactive response to PM’s decision, but it is indeed interesting that the highest threat the PM has experienced thus far on the campaign (requiring BV and visible tac team presence) was at an attendance-vetted LPC fundraising event, vice truly public event...

Regards
G2G


----------



## Furniture (16 Oct 2019)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Brihard, in no way second guessing PMPD’s reactive response to PM’s decision, but it is indeed interesting that the highest threat the PM has experienced thus far on the campaign (requiring BV and visible tac team presence) was at an attendance-vetted LPC fundraising event, vice truly public event...
> 
> Regards
> G2G



Another interesting question; If there threat was so credible that the PM required almost "visit to a Afghanistan FOB" level protection, why wasn't the event cancelled in the interest of the safety of the people in attendance?


----------



## Remius (16 Oct 2019)

Furniture said:
			
		

> Another interesting question; If there threat was so credible that the PM required almost "visit to a Afghanistan FOB" level protection, why wasn't the event cancelled in the interest of the safety of the people in attendance?



Now that would have most likely been the campaign team/PMO's call.  They made a decision to proceed, the RCMP makes security recommendations and acts accordingly.

Was the threat specific?  or general?  We don't know.   Sounds like it was very specific, enough to warrant those security measures. 

If you cancel you might be playing into the hands of the guy/girl/group making the threats.  If you are confident about the security arrangements you take the risk and don't let yourself be bullied.  I guess.


----------



## Jarnhamar (16 Oct 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I’m not qualified to say with confidence a 100% hard no, but everything I’ve learned about this crew convinces me strongly that operational decisions like that are 100% a protective function.



Fair enough. My initial posts were probably a little too scathing and lowered the bar in the politics thread. Sorry about that all. Let me try and rephrase a little.


I'm sure the RCMP detail is professional and not behaving in an untoward or biased manner.


That said I don't think anyone is beyond question though when it comes to this stuff, especially with our current government, and their past behavior. 

You mentioned a political flunkie. I feel like the PMO rate a little bit higher than political flunkies. They appear to have felt very confident intimidating, bullying and harassing the attorney general of Canada to do what they wanted (and as we know, found guilty of ethics violations)  I feel like the attorney general of Canada is a bigger fish to boss around than a close protection team leader or detail commander. 
At the end of the day would they say no to the prime minister or prime ministers office if they really wanted something to go a certain way? Purely an un-informed opinion but I have my doubts. 

In any case the situation still seems strange.
Police in full tactical gear, apparent rolled up ballistic shields, backpacks full of weapons. For an invite only, vetted LPC event.

Given Trudeau's flair for drama, assault weapon narrative and the numbers in the polls I don't think it's weird to be a little suspicious of the whole incident and ask questions.


----------



## Remius (16 Oct 2019)

So, the poll tracker is not updated yet today but we are seeing some interesting stuff.

I read somewhere that a strong NDP benefits the CPC.  The magic number the CPC wants to see is 17% and the NDP has crossed that.  That could mean majority territory for the CPC.

I still think it will be a minority  government.  But which on is still up in the air.


----------



## mariomike (16 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Second, Buffalo Chronicle is a terrible source for real news.



Never heard of it until it was posted into this discussion.



> Oct 15, 2019
> Facebook not budging on removing widely spread fabricated Trudeau hit pieces
> https://ipolitics.ca/2019/10/15/facebook-not-budging-on-removing-widely-spread-fabricated-trudeau-hit-pieces/
> On the same day that another fabricated hit piece on Justin Trudeau was circulated by thousands on Facebook, company executives confirmed the social media platform wouldn’t ban one of the top outlets responsible for fake Canadian political news.


----------



## Halifax Tar (16 Oct 2019)

*Trudeau concedes Tories could win, accuses them of running 'dirtiest' campaign ever*

Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau today conceded the Conservatives could win Monday's election — and accused the party of winning support by running one of the "dirtiest, nastiest" election campaigns in Canadian history.

Surrounded by 29 Quebec candidates at an event at Montreal's Botanical Garden Wednesday, Trudeau appealed to Quebecers to support his party and elect a progressive government rather than a "progressive opposition." It's a pitch he's been making a lot lately — a bid to beat down surging support for the NDP and Bloc Québécois by arguing that voting for those parties could help elect a Conservative government.

Asked about a report in The Globe and Mail about the Manning Centre refusing to disclose the source of donations to third parties for attack ads on the Liberals, Trudeau took the opportunity to take aim at Conservative tactics in the campaign.

Link: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-liberal-accuses-conservatives-dirty-campaign-1.5322439
_____________________

Oh the irony! Wait maybe hypocrisy ?  Perhaps both ? lol


----------



## Jarnhamar (16 Oct 2019)

[quote author=Halifax Tar] 

Oh the irony! Wait maybe hypocrisy ?  Perhaps both ? lol
[/quote]

People went berserk over this guys socks. For him to blow that kind of fanaticism is really impressive.


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Oct 2019)

‘Dirtiest, nastiest’ campaign from a guy half of Canadians still probably couldn’t pick out of a police line-up?  :not-again:

No, this is an accumulated, self-inflicted wound. 


Regards

G2G


----------



## RangerRay (16 Oct 2019)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> *Trudeau concedes Tories could win, accuses them of running 'dirtiest' campaign ever*



Pot, kettle, black.


----------



## Furniture (16 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Now that would have most likely been the campaign team/PMO's call.  They made a decision to proceed, the RCMP makes security recommendations and acts accordingly.
> 
> Was the threat specific?  or general?  We don't know.   Sounds like it was very specific, enough to warrant those security measures.
> 
> If you cancel you might be playing into the hands of the guy/girl/group making the threats.  If you are confident about the security arrangements you take the risk and don't let yourself be bullied.  I guess.



I suppose my issue stems from the PM sending his family away because there was a threat, but the public not knowing about the threat. I get not releasing specifics, but I think it's wrong to place the public at risk just to make a "show of force".


----------



## Remius (16 Oct 2019)

Furniture said:
			
		

> I suppose my issue stems from the PM sending his family away because there was a threat, but the public not knowing about the threat. I get not releasing specifics, but I think it's wrong to place the public at risk just to make a "show of force".



We also don't have the details.  What if the threat was "If I see you and your wife I'll..." or was it "If I can't get to you I can get to her or your kids at the event"

We don't have all the facts.  Maybe the RCMP recommended that they minimise the threat so they could focus on just him rather that two people.  These types of protective details in public spaces are complex.

Maybe the threat came from someone or some group that the RCMP are aware of already. 

None of this is in a vacuum.  

But like everyone else not in though, I don't know what happened or how they decided to go ahead. We don't really know if there was a risk to the public.  The PM is a high risk individual.  More so for this one that has garnered celebrity status.  There will always be a risk when he goes out in public.


----------



## AbdullahD (16 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Some pretty sound counter points.
> 
> Guess I figured if the PMO would try to intimidate and bully the attorney general into doing what the PMO wanted anything was possible.
> But maybe it wasn't a conspiracy, this time
> ...



Hey Jarnhamar, I am in the process of buying properties in the USA for rental investments.

If for whatever reason this ban does come in to affect. I will take one of my places off the market and use it to legally store my firearms south of the border.

Let me know if you need to rent a room.



			
				Remius said:
			
		

> We also don't have the details.  What if the threat was "If I see you and your wife I'll..." or was it "If I can't get to you I can get to her or your kids at the event"
> 
> We don't have all the facts.  Maybe the RCMP recommended that they minimise the threat so they could focus on just him rather that two people.  These types of protective details in public spaces are complex.
> 
> ...



I have to agree with you, I have no issue with the PM protecting himself and his family and I doubt this is a conspiracy.  As much as I dislike his platform, some of his antics etc he is still our leader and deserves our protection as such, especially his family.

If I was in his position, I'd possibly do the same.. someone coming to kill me.. even without threats to my family.. get them the hell away. If it turns out to be credible or does happen or what not, why risk the family? Nothing is clean these days.

Abdullah


----------



## stellarpanther (16 Oct 2019)

This was posted a short time ago on Twitter from Obama.  I'm curious to see if this will help Trudeau.  Elections Canada when asked has already said this is not interfer

*I was proud to work with Justin Trudeau as President. He's a hard-working, effective leader who takes on big issues like climate change. The world needs his progressive leadership now, and I hope our neighbors to the north support him for another term.*


----------



## Cloud Cover (16 Oct 2019)

I sincerely think United States of America’s President Obama is an intelligent man who did much good during his time in office. The guy that he’s suddenly endorsing in the last days of a foreign election, I can’t say the same: https://election.ctvnews.ca/mobile/obama-weighs-in-on-canada-s-federal-election-backs-trudeau-1.4641296


----------



## The Bread Guy (16 Oct 2019)

Usual caveats about info-machine statements, but this is what the CBC is now saying about their Team Blue litigation - and yes, other parties have been dinged in the past ...


> ... During the 2015 election campaign, several parties used CBC/Radio-Canada content, including footage of our journalists, in partisan advertising. We sent cease and desist letters to the Liberal Party and the NDP and they complied. When the Conservative Party and the Broadbent Institute*** refused to comply with requests that they remove the material, we launched legal action against both organizations, on behalf of CBC/Radio-Canada and the specific journalists affected. Both organizations ultimately settled the court action by agreeing to remove the unauthorized material. Their settlement came after the ads had served their intended purpose and before the Court had issued its decision. Without a court ruling this left the door open to a repeat of that behaviour in this election ...


Lots more tea leaves to read @ link.

So, it's #TheySueTeamBlueAgain or #GoodForTheGooseWasGoodForTheGander - your pick  ;D

*** - I colour these guys orange mainly because Broadbent used to be captain of Team Orange in a previous life.  Some might say they're orange, some might say red, but they sure ain't blue.


----------



## QV (16 Oct 2019)

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> I sincerely think United States of America’s President Obama is an intelligent man who did much good during his time in office. The guy that he’s suddenly endorsing in the last days of a foreign election, I can’t say the same: https://election.ctvnews.ca/mobile/obama-weighs-in-on-canada-s-federal-election-backs-trudeau-1.4641296



The very fact he is endorsing someone like Trudeau only confirms my thoughts on him, his presidency, and his former hangers on.  But, yes I agree that he is intelligent.


----------



## The Bread Guy (16 Oct 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> This was posted a short time ago on Twitter from Obama.  I'm curious to see if this will help Trudeau.  Elections Canada when asked has already said this is not interfer
> 
> *I was proud to work with Justin Trudeau as President. He's a hard-working, effective leader who takes on big issues like climate change. The world needs his progressive leadership now, and I hope our neighbors to the north support him for another term.*


Aaaaaaaaaand it didn't take The Beaverton long ...
*"Update: Canadians lucky US Presidential endorsement of Canadian political leader didn’t involve drone strikes"*


----------



## stellarpanther (16 Oct 2019)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Aaaaaaaaaand it didn't take The Beaverton long ...
> *"Update: Canadians lucky US Presidential endorsement of Canadian political leader didn’t involve drone strikes"*



I can't believe I never heard of that site before... There's some funny stuff in there especially this one.

https://www.thebeaverton.com/2019/10/putin-impressed-canadian-voters-dont-need-help-spreading-disinformation/


----------



## Cloud Cover (16 Oct 2019)

And here is one of the “hangers on” adding his support:

https://twitter.com/BruceAHeyman/status/1184532114831740928?s=20


----------



## ModlrMike (16 Oct 2019)

We were talking about the election at work last night, and we hit upon a few demographics that seem to be overlooked by the analysts:

1. youth voters - now that MJ has been approved, is there anything on the table that will compel them to come out like they did last time?

2. swing voters - those that voted for JT in 2015, but may now be more likely to return to their traditional patterns;

3. blue liberals/red torries - those that find the prospect of a LPC - NDP minority too far left for their tastes; and

4. quiet conservatives - voters who are reluctant to reveal their allegiance, who are fearful of professional repercussions if they do so. The same "basket of deplorables" that came out in support of DT and turned the polls upside down.


----------



## Jarnhamar (16 Oct 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I can't believe I never heard of that site before... There's some funny stuff in there especially this one.
> 
> https://www.thebeaverton.com/2019/10/putin-impressed-canadian-voters-dont-need-help-spreading-disinformation/



This one is pretty good too.

https://www.thebeaverton.com/2019/09/trudeau-wondering-how-long-until-its-cool-for-him-to-do-blackface-again/



Just great to see Obama in the news. We're just missing Clinton.


----------



## mariomike (16 Oct 2019)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> 1. youth voters - now that MJ has been approved, is there anything on the table that will compel them to come out like they did last time?



According to Ipsos, of those "completely certain to vote", males 55+ take the lead at 82%.

Males 18-34 at 43% and females 18-34 at 48%.

Ipsos notes a "Significant Gender Gap in Voting Intentions Among Younger Canadians" as to which party they will be voting for,

Females 18-34 LPC 35%, NDP 27%, CPC 24%.

Males 18-34 LPC 35%, CPC 31%, NDP 16%
https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/news-polls/Significant-Gender-Gap-in-Voting-Intentions-Among-Younger-Canadians

Edit to add

Dear young people, "Don't Vote" ( satire ).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0e9guhV35o


----------



## Remius (16 Oct 2019)

Latest poll tracker is out and the Liberals see major drop in seat projection.  

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/

Note the NDP goes up almost a point per day.  If the trend continues they could be up 5 more points before the election is decided.  Might not translate to seats but it may split the vote even more in favour of the CPC.


----------



## Jarnhamar (16 Oct 2019)

[quote author=ModlrMike] 

4. quiet conservatives - voters who are reluctant to reveal their allegiance, who are fearful of professional repercussions if they do so. The same "basket of deplorables" that came out in support of DT and turned to polls upside down.
[/quote]

This actually might be a significant number. The penchant to treat anyone conservative like they're some kind of racist Nazi might backfire and we see the deplorable-effect come election day.


----------



## dapaterson (16 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Latest poll tracker is out and the Liberals see major drop in seat projection.
> 
> https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/
> 
> Note the NDP goes up almost a point per day.  If the trend continues they could be up 5 more points before the election is decided.  Might not translate to seats but it may split the vote even more in favour of the CPC.



Hmm.. the potential outcomes only add up to 99%.  I guess that means a 1% chance of Kang and Kodos invading and taking over.

At this point, I'm not sure that would be a bad thing...


----------



## SeaKingTacco (16 Oct 2019)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Hmm.. the potential outcomes only add up to 99%.  I guess that means a 1% chance of Kang and Kodos invading and taking over.
> 
> At this point, I'm not sure that would be a bad thing...



I, for one, salute our new alien overlords...


----------



## The Bread Guy (16 Oct 2019)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Aaaaaaaaaand it didn't take The Beaverton long ...
> *"Update: Canadians lucky US Presidential endorsement of Canadian political leader didn’t involve drone strikes"*


... with a quick follow-up:  _*"Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer has been let down by his fellow American, Barack Obama, after he opted to endorse Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau in a tweet ..."*_


----------



## mariomike (16 Oct 2019)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> ... with a quick follow-up:  _*"Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer has been let down by his fellow American, Barack Obama, after he opted to endorse Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau in a tweet ..."*_



Regarding the above, 



> Global News
> 
> October 16, 2019
> 
> ...





			
				stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I can't believe I never heard of that site before... There's some funny stuff in there especially this one.
> 
> https://www.thebeaverton.com/2019/10/putin-impressed-canadian-voters-dont-need-help-spreading-disinformation/





> Putin impressed Canadian voters don’t need help spreading disinformation


----------



## Jarnhamar (16 Oct 2019)

Liberals - Conservatives running 'dirtiest' campaign ever! 

Also Liberals - https://globalnews.ca/news/6039611/liberals-post-video-of-scheer-sitting-during-o-canada-tory-leader-says-they-politicized-anthem/






> Global News asked the Liberal Party why it released the video of Scheer on Wednesday and while simultaneously accusing the Tories of divisive campaign tactics.
> 
> A Liberal Party spokesperson provided a brief statement in response * but did not directly answer the questions. *


* 

Double standard is wine of communion with the LPC. 

*


----------



## brihard (16 Oct 2019)

I can’t wait for this gong show to be over.


----------



## AbdullahD (16 Oct 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I can’t wait for this gong show to be over.



Sometimes I wonder if dictators are really so bad hahaha


----------



## dapaterson (17 Oct 2019)

Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…

Winston S Churchill, 11 November 1947


----------



## Cloud Cover (17 Oct 2019)

If the voting really turns out to be this divided on the left and by some miracle the Conservatives end up forming a government, it had better be a majority otherwise we will be right back at this in less than 6 months.


----------



## ballz (17 Oct 2019)

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> If the voting really turns out to be this divided on the left and by some miracle the Conservatives end up forming a government, it had better be a majority otherwise we will be right back at this in less than 6 months.



I'd be happy with that as long as the Liberals and Conservatives replace their leader.

I'm also happy if we get a government that can't pass any legislation / effect any changes, would probably be the best government ever.


----------



## Halifax Tar (17 Oct 2019)

My memory tells me those who cause the fall of a minority Gov often end up outside official party status.


----------



## Haggis (17 Oct 2019)

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> If the voting really turns out to be this divided on the left and by some miracle the Conservatives end up forming a government, it had better be a majority otherwise we will be right back at this in less than 6 months.



When I walked out of the advance poll on Monday I said "see you in four years".  The poll worker responded "maybe sooner".  ;D


----------



## The Bread Guy (17 Oct 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I can’t wait for this gong show to be over.


I hope I'm wrong, but no matter who wins, we're going to be seeing nothing _but_ this ...


----------



## Jarnhamar (17 Oct 2019)

I love Journeyman's idea about having the government come together every 6 months to decide if any policies have to change or anything needs to be done.


I like the PPCs idea of less government.
We need more control of where money from taxes are spent. Seeing stupid tweets bragging about sending millions of dollars to whoever is annoying as hell.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (17 Oct 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> This was posted a short time ago on Twitter from Obama.  I'm curious to see if this will help Trudeau.  Elections Canada when asked has already said this is not interfer
> 
> *I was proud to work with Justin Trudeau as President. He's a hard-working, effective leader who takes on big issues like climate change. The world needs his progressive leadership now, and I hope our neighbors to the north support him for another term.*



Interesting how foreigners inserting themselves into Canadian elections is generally thought to be a bad thing...unless it is designed to help the Liberals.

Thought experiment time: what would be the general (media) reaction in Canada to GW Bush endorsing Andrew Scheer, I wonder?


----------



## Journeyman (17 Oct 2019)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Thought experiment time: what would be the general (media) reaction in Canada to GW Bush endorsing Andrew Scheer, I wonder?


a) it would be worlds better than a Trump endorsement.  ("dammit, we've managed to keep Ford muzzled, and now _this_...")

b) you could spin a Bush 43 endorsement as embracing LGBQT+ support.... since Ellen DeGeneres and GWB are supposedly buddies.


----------



## Edward Campbell (17 Oct 2019)

Just for info, the Vivian Krause very one-sided _documentary_ "*Over A Barrell*" is availablr (FREE ~ until 31 Oct 19) on Fracebook.

It's very one-sided because of most of the people she enamed refused to be interviewed.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (17 Oct 2019)

My political preference would be some form of Green/Conservative Coalition Government.  I know, this sounds crazy, but hear me out!

I am what you would call a "Progressive Conservative", I am fiscally conservative but believe strongly in a lot of social issues i.e. Indigenous reconciliation, LGBTQ+ rights, pro-choice, etc.  In those cases, I like what the Green Party is saying a lot.  

I also think that we have a duty to look after the environment and believe in ethical/responsible business practices and that means doing our best for the environment; however, we also can't destroy our economy.  I believe there are some compromises that can be made though and that the Green Party and Conservative Party could actually work well together.  I very much liked that Elizabeth May said she would support Canadians using Canadian oil and ween us off foreign oil.  For that to happen, we need pipelines so there is already some compromise that could happen there.  Likewise, I think a fairly significant portion of taxes the Government generates from oil royalties should go towards Green Initiatives.  

I like large portions of the Green Party Foreign & Defence Platform particularly the focus on banning foreign importation of oil and cancelling the AFV deal with Saudi Arabia.  As well, I think the Greens would actually beef up our military in certain respects, particularly in light of this piece from their platform:



> The security and defence of the nation is a fundamental responsibility of any sovereign government. Not since the end of the Cold War 30 years ago has global security seemed so precarious. Contributing to this is the disruption being caused by climate change – referred to by military analysts as a threat multiplier. This will only worsen as the Earth heats up, including in Canada.



One thing I didn't like was that they would recommend banning autonomous weapon systems, that like the Anti Land-Mine Treaty is militarily stupid and I would strongly advise against doing that.  I suspect this would be quickly stricken from their policy if they ever had the opportunity to form part of a government and again, compromise could be sought.

For any of this too happen though, the Greens would need to become significantly stronger than they are at present.  Not going to happen this election but could it in the future? I think there is a lot in the Green platform that Rural Conservative Voting Canadians (who honestly have the most to lose from Climate Change) could like from the Green Party Platform.  All this being said, I know it is a crazy idea but it could just be a match made in heaven.


----------



## Remius (17 Oct 2019)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> I am what you would call a "Progressive Conservative", I am fiscally conservative but believe strongly in a lot of social issues i.e. Indigenous reconciliation, LGBTQ+ rights, pro-choice, etc.  ,
> 
> All this being said, I know it is a crazy idea but it could just be a match made in heaven.



I am politically about the same as you. 

The only problem with your match made in heaven though is pipelines.  One would want them all over heaven, the other wants them sent to hell.  Either way someone will get dirty...


----------



## mariomike (17 Oct 2019)

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> Sometimes I wonder if dictators are really so bad hahaha



Germany tried that experiment. We know how it ended.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (17 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> I am politically about the same as you.
> 
> The only problem with your match made in heaven though is pipelines.  One would want them all over heaven, the other wants them sent to hell.  Either way someone will get dirty...



I think the big issue for the Green Party WRT pipelines is what happens after the Oil leaves the pipe and gets put on a ship and this is also a Major gripe for many people in British Columbia.  It makes sense given the strong Green presence on Vancouver Island & the surrounding Gulf Islands and honestly, it should be a concern.  A major shipping accident akin to the Exxon Valdez would be absolutely devastating not just ecologically but also economically for Lower Mainland, Vancouver & Gulf Islands, BC and we should take it seriously.  

If and when Trans-Mountain Pipeline does get built, we should have multiple contingency and response plans to deal with such an incident and the Federal Government should have a robust spill response capability.  Given how the Federal Government has severely mismanaged the Coast Guard, Navy and DFO in the past, I see little hope for this yet.


----------



## ModlrMike (17 Oct 2019)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> I think the big issue for the Green Party WRT pipelines is what happens after the Oil leaves the pipe and gets put on a ship and this is also a Major gripe for many people in British Columbia.  It makes sense given the strong Green presence on Vancouver Island & the surrounding Gulf Islands and honestly, it should be a concern.  A major shipping accident akin to the Exxon Valdez would be absolutely devastating not just ecologically but also economically for Lower Mainland, Vancouver & Gulf Islands, BC and we should take it seriously.
> 
> If and when Trans-Mountain Pipeline does get built, we should have multiple contingency and response plans to deal with such an incident and the Federal Government should have a robust spill response capability.  Given how the Federal Government has severely mismanaged the Coast Guard, Navy and DFO in the past, I see little hope for this yet.



They seem to have no troubles with selling coal.


----------



## Remius (17 Oct 2019)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> I think the big issue for the Green Party WRT pipelines is what happens after the Oil leaves the pipe and gets put on a ship and this is also a Major gripe for many people in British Columbia.  It makes sense given the strong Green presence on Vancouver Island & the surrounding Gulf Islands and honestly, it should be a concern.  A major shipping accident akin to the Exxon Valdez would be absolutely devastating not just ecologically but also economically for Lower Mainland, Vancouver & Gulf Islands, BC and we should take it seriously.
> 
> If and when Trans-Mountain Pipeline does get built, we should have multiple contingency and response plans to deal with such an incident and the Federal Government should have a robust spill response capability.  Given how the Federal Government has severely mismanaged the Coast Guard, Navy and DFO in the past, I see little hope for this yet.



If oil is extracted responsibly think about how many green energy programs or social programs that could fund.  but yes, you are right hope is fleeting indeed that they can get it right.


----------



## The Bread Guy (17 Oct 2019)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Image was too big to load. So, just a link about Doug and Mr. Scheer.
> https://torontosun.com/opinion/cartoons/donato-oct-13


Mission accomplished ...


> ... "I know you want to see me scrap it out with the feds," Ford told reporters. "I'm just not going to do it." ...


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (17 Oct 2019)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> They seem to have no troubles with selling coal.



Well Coal also isn't lighter than water and won't kill off the commercial fishing industry, commercial whale watching, tourism, threaten property values, etc.  If there is an incident, because coal is a solid, it will sink to the bottom of the ocean as sediment and while this may be somewhat bad for a few crabs and flora and fauna in the immediate area, it won't do much damage otherwise.  Yes Coal contains bad chemicals but these are only really released and made harmful when Coal is burned. There was a Coal Ship that sank off Victoria in 1891 and they did a study on it and found it too be less polluting than the sewage Victoria dumps in to the Ocean every single day.

It's all about the economy my friend.  A shipping accident involving Coal won't impact large numbers of peoples livelihoods, devastate property values for rich owners, etc.  A large oil spill like the Exxon Valdez will.



			
				Remius said:
			
		

> If oil is extracted responsibly think about how many green energy programs or social programs that could fund.  but yes, you are right hope is fleeting indeed that they can get it right.



This is really my point, Oil is still going to need to be extracted, refined and used for many different applications outside the automobile, even then, in certain scenarios it is still more useful to use fossil fuels at this time, particularly in extremely cold climates.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (17 Oct 2019)

Some of the Greens I met in the North could meet the requirements for a Green/Conservative coalition, much more practical than their urban cousins. What the Conservatives should be focusing on is habitat protection and construction. Increasing wetlands is all round good and you can also employ First Nations to build a lot of it. The CPC if they will need to go the FN's and talk about employment, certainly here in BC, the bands will listen to that and want it. Also promoting fish stock management and hatcheries will also help.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (17 Oct 2019)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Some of the Greens I met in the North could meet the requirements for a Green/Conservative coalition, much more practical than their urban cousins. What the Conservatives should be focusing on is habitat protection and construction. Increasing wetlands is all round good and you can also employ First Nations to build a lot of it. The CPC if they will need to go the FN's and talk about employment, certainly here in BC, the bands will listen to that and want it. Also promoting fish stock management and hatcheries will also help.



This is what I mean, there is lots of common ground to be found and many shared interests.  I am 100% about collaboration as opposed to confrontation which seems to be the way of the world nowadays.

I would have considered voting Liberal but the Socialist bent of Justin Trudeau as well as the numerous questions around Ethics really have made me question his integrity as a person.  the Jody-Wilson Raybould/Mark Norman affairs were really the straw that broke the camels back for me with respect to his ability to effectively govern.


----------



## daftandbarmy (17 Oct 2019)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> I think the big issue for the Green Party WRT pipelines is what happens after the Oil leaves the pipe and gets put on a ship and this is also a Major gripe for many people in British Columbia.  It makes sense given the strong Green presence on Vancouver Island & the surrounding Gulf Islands and honestly, it should be a concern.  A major shipping accident akin to the Exxon Valdez would be absolutely devastating not just ecologically but also economically for Lower Mainland, Vancouver & Gulf Islands, BC and we should take it seriously.
> 
> If and when Trans-Mountain Pipeline does get built, we should have multiple contingency and response plans to deal with such an incident and the Federal Government should have a robust spill response capability.  Given how the Federal Government has severely mismanaged the Coast Guard, Navy and DFO in the past, I see little hope for this yet.



The big issue for the Greens and pipelines is to corner the market on votes from people under 30 most of whom, of course, aren't working in jobs that make alot of money, own houses, have kids, or who are otherwise heavily invested in the traditional economy yet. 

This also helps explain the ridiculous hyperbole around climate change ('Thank Gawd for Gerta' - Elizabeth May) that's ramping up, to get this demographic to vote Green now before they 'grow up', in the traditional economic sense, in the 4 years before the next election because young people don't tend to vote, at all. 

It also helps explain their move to change the electoral system to one that recognizes the popular vote, as opposed to riding-centric (whatever that's called because I can't remember right now):                      

*What’s fuelling Canada’s Green Party?*

The potential Green voter pool is 35% among those 60 or older, and a whopping 58% among those under 30. The accessible Green pool is large enough to have a major impact on every part of the country.

https://abacusdata.ca/whats-fueling-canadas-green-party/


----------



## Good2Golf (17 Oct 2019)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> I think the big issue for the Green Party WRT pipelines is what happens after the Oil leaves the pipe and gets put on a ship and this is also a Major gripe for many people in British Columbia.  It makes sense given the strong Green presence on Vancouver Island & the surrounding Gulf Islands and honestly, it should be a concern.  A major shipping accident akin to the Exxon Valdez would be absolutely devastating not just ecologically but also economically for Lower Mainland, Vancouver & Gulf Islands, BC and we should take it seriously...



The irony is that hydrogen in the hydrocarbon oil resolved to water upon combustion, however, there isn’t any hydrogen in the BC coal exported to China, India, Japan and elsewhere from Roberts Point on the lower mainland. When burned, that makes predominantly CO2...but that’s okay in the eyes of British Columbians... :

And a post-PANAMAX container ship accident would have no effect on the environment because they operate on pixie-dust and unicorn farts, not maritime distillate oil.


----------



## Underway (17 Oct 2019)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Some of the Greens I met in the North could meet the requirements for a Green/Conservative coalition, much more practical than their urban cousins. What the Conservatives should be focusing on is habitat protection and construction. Increasing wetlands is all round good and you can also employ First Nations to build a lot of it. The CPC if they will need to go the FN's and talk about employment, certainly here in BC, the bands will listen to that and want it. Also promoting fish stock management and hatcheries will also help.



Green Party in Canada many years back before May took over had a large group of disaffected PC members.  They are the wing of the party that have more or less been pushed to the side by the Green Marxists.  However in looking at the Green platform you can still see their fingerprints on it, as the Green Party as still much more centre than the NDP generally.


----------



## a_majoor (17 Oct 2019)

Finally got a flyer in the front door from the Communist Party, which also has a candidate in my riding (wow, a full house!)

One point which I find interesting is when you read it, at least 2/3 of the issues and platform planks are indistinguishable from the Liberal, Conservative, NDP or Green platforms. If most of the parties are offering the same thing, with only a few minor detail differences, then the election is essentially arguing over what shade of yellow we want to paint the kitchen. While I also have a PPC candidate like virtually every riding, I'm starting to think that for 2024 there should be a concerted effort to get all 14 registered parties to field candidates in all ridings. Canadians need more than a very limited palette of choices when it comes to electoral politics.

https://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=pol&dir=par&document=index&lang=e



Animal Protection Party of Canada
Bloc Québécois
Canada's Fourth Front
Canadian Nationalist Party
Christian Heritage Party of Canada
Communist Party of Canada
Conservative Party of Canada
Green Party of Canada
Liberal Party of Canada
Libertarian Party of Canada
Marijuana Party
Marxist-Leninist Party of Canada
National Citizens Alliance of Canada
New Democratic Party
Parti pour l'Indépendance du Québec
Parti Rhinocéros Party
People’s Party of Canada
Progressive Canadian Party
Stop Climate Change
The United Party of Canada
Veterans Coalition Party of Canada

The other part, which I found rather hilarious, is the section about the military:


> "While Trudeau talks about peace, he's increased military spending by 73%, and his Foreign Minister has involved Canada in regime change operations in Venezuela, Brazil, Nicaragua, Syria and now China..."



I would have expected at least a phone call asking about my availability for regime change operations in China, since that might require a bit of extra manpower (if everyone else is already busy in Venezuela, Brazil, Nicaragua and Syria). Oddly, real missions in Latvia, Ukraine and Iraq were overlooked. You would hope that people seeking public office would be at least minimally informed, but I suppose that is too much to expect. 

The evening of the 21rst will be interesting.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (17 Oct 2019)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> The irony is that hydrogen in the hydrocarbon oil resolved to water upon combustion, however, there isn’t any hydrogen in the BC coal exported to China, India, Japan and elsewhere from Roberts Point on the lower mainland. When burned, that makes predominantly CO2...but that’s okay in the eyes of British Columbians... :
> 
> And a post-PANAMAX container ship accident would have no effect on the environment because they operate on pixie-dust and unicorn farts, not maritime distillate oil.



No doubt, I also sometimes think the devastation caused by environmental accidents on the water is greatly overstated.  One thing that is never talked about which is the greatest environmental accident on the water of all time, WWII and its shipwrecks:







With the combined total of ships sunk adding up to 7807 vessels (that is an estimate based on known numbers btw, the actual total could be even greater).  If you were to believe the Sierra Club and their messaging about oil spills, the North Atlantic should be proverbial apocalyptic wasteland by now.

That's a lot of crap being spewed in to the water and we have all somehow managed to survive  8)


----------



## Remius (17 Oct 2019)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> The other part, which I found rather hilarious, is the section about the military:
> I would have expected at least a phone call asking about my availability for regime change operations in China, since that might require a bit of extra manpower (if everyone else is already busy in Venezuela, Brazil, Nicaragua and Syria). Oddly, real missions in Latvia, Ukraine and Iraq were overlooked. You would hope that people seeking public office would be at least minimally informed, but I suppose that is too much to expect.
> 
> The evening of the 21rst will be interesting.



Well some of us have Tin foil medals with bars for each OP.


----------



## Journeyman (17 Oct 2019)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> ….but the Socialist bent of Justin Trudeau as well as the numerous questions around Ethics really have made me question his integrity as a person.  the Jody-Wilson Raybould/Mark Norman affairs were really the straw that broke the camels back for me with respect to his ability to effectively govern.


For "Socialist," I think I'd be more prone to label it as 'virtue signalling' -- I really (no, not political name-calling), *honestly* haven't seen any sort of serious Socialist proposals from him -- just posturing for media/global gatherings' coverage.
I think (OK, _now_  being catty) that between his entitled upbringing and his Mom & Fidel.... any remotely Socialist economics understanding is limited to dorm room poster sayings.

Notice: I'm neither a Socialist, nor have I played one on TV.... but I do read a fair bit. 8) 


As for his integrity:   :brickwall:    :waiting:    :not-again:   [go on, try to pick any only two]


----------



## Remius (17 Oct 2019)

latest poll tracker sees the gap in seat projections between the CPC and LPC grow.  CPC seems to have dropped.  


https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/


Maybe their platform release is being reflected.  I’m in the PS and a lot of people I work with we’re planning to vote CPC until they saw their plans for the PS...


----------



## OldSolduer (17 Oct 2019)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> That's a lot of crap being spewed in to the water and we have all somehow managed to survive  8)



And crap not just in the water. The air has been full of it lately  :facepalm:


----------



## stellarpanther (17 Oct 2019)

I was watching a father of a child with autism question Scheer today as to whether he would fund autism treatment if elected.  The response Scheer gave was "absolutely" which caused the ecstatic father raise Scheers' hand like he was the champion for autism.  Scheer then quickly took off before any other questions could be asked.  Later the Conservative Party clarified that they only plan on committing x amount of money for autism research.  If anyone else watched this clip they will clearly see Scheer commitment to a very clear question.  He flat out lied to this poor father.
I've seen Scheer make other BS statements and this is part of why I didn't vote for CPC this time around.  I simply don't trust him.


----------



## Jarnhamar (17 Oct 2019)

[quote author=stellarpanther] Later the Conservative Party clarified that they only plan on committing x amount of money for autism research.  
[/quote]

What's the alternative to providing a set amount of funding? Blank check perhaps?


----------



## mariomike (17 Oct 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I simply don't trust him.



Regardless of which team you support: ''Believe none of what you hear, and half of what you see.''


----------



## The Bread Guy (17 Oct 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I was watching a father of a child with autism question Scheer today as to *whether he would fund autism treatment if elected.  The response Scheer gave was "absolutely"* ...





			
				stellarpanther said:
			
		

> ... Later the Conservative Party clarified that they only plan on *committing x amount of money for autism research* ...


Sorry, I don't see a conflict between the two bits in yellow -- unless Scheer or the party folk said something more than what you've mentioned, "lied" _may_ be going too far on this one.

Here's what Team Blue's committed to on autism, for the record:


> ... “Canada’s Conservatives believe that the federal government can play an important role in developing a strategy to assist those living with autism and their families. As Prime Minister, Andrew Scheer will work with autism stakeholders to develop a National Autism Strategy.
> 
> “An initial investment of $50 million over five years would be invested to develop a comprehensive strategy in consultation with autistic individuals, autism organizations, provincial, territorial, and municipal governments, and indigenous communities. The National Autism Strategy will be person-centred, include first-person perspectives, will be culturally appropriate, and will reflect the needs of Canada’s northern, rural, and remote communities.
> 
> “This is an important first step to support Canadians’ access to meaningful support and resources to live to their full potential, no matter where they live ...


Is that enough?  Fair question.  What's that mean, _exactly_?  Fair question.  Lie?  Based only on what you've shared, I don't think so on this one.


----------



## mariomike (17 Oct 2019)

If he lives in Ontario, the father may have had concerns about Team Blue's policy,



> Global News
> October 15, 2019
> 
> ‘Do the right thing’: Eugene Levy calls on Ford government to reverse autism funding changes
> ...


----------



## The Bread Guy (17 Oct 2019)

mariomike said:
			
		

> If he lives in Ontario, the father may have had concerns about Team Blue's policy,


It's not perfect yet (what is, right?), but again, to be fair, at least the Premier has had second thoughts - let's see where that takes him.  I'm actually surprised at how he's cranked back at least _some_ things, but I still worry about what's to come - fingers crossed.


----------



## mariomike (17 Oct 2019)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> It's not perfect yet (what is, right?), but again, to be fair, at least the Premier has had second thoughts - let's see where that takes him.  I'm actually surprised at how he's cranked back at least _some_ things, but I still worry about what's to come - fingers crossed.



Reminds me of Doug's days as a City councillor,  
https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ACYBGNRAc1w0pQmKN6xyR-5dZAhwapA6AA%3A1571358756472&ei=JAipXea0HKTRxgPC9J6wCg&q=%22doug+ford%22+councillor+autism&oq=%22doug+ford%22+councillor+autism&gs_l=psy-ab.12..35i39.32636.35990..41002...0.0..0.180.356.0j2......0....1..gws-wiz.o2tG7tw7wNQ&ved=0ahUKEwjm1vnDx6TlAhWkqHEKHUK6B6YQ4dUDCAo#spf=1571358798168


----------



## The Bread Guy (17 Oct 2019)

My bad for dragging us into the provincial arena ...

Bringing it back to the national focus, here's the latest from 338canada.com and the Election Prediction Project (here's how they read the tea leaves) -- still big margins of error, but here's the latest bones that have been cast.


----------



## Jarnhamar (17 Oct 2019)

Filed under big surprise.


* CBC won't sue Liberals over partisan ad using their material* 



> CBC says they won’t be suing a Liberal candidate or the Liberal Party for using CBC material in an online partisan ad even as they continue a lawsuit against the Conservatives for the same thing.
> 
> Nirmala Naidoo is the Liberal candidate in Calgary Skyview and a former reporter and anchor with CBC and Global Television in Calgary. In a video posted on Twitter, she relied heavily on CBC broadcast material to tell voters why they should back her in Monday’s election.
> 
> Though she did the exact same thing as the Conservatives, CBC is not suing Naidoo or her party.





> The video had been up since September 12 before CBC sought to have it taken down just this week. In the case of the Conservatives using CBC material, the party says they complied with the request to remove the material before the lawsuit was launched.



https://torontosun.com/news/national/election-2019/cbc-wont-sue-liberals-over-partisan-ad-using-their-material?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1571336484


----------



## ballz (18 Oct 2019)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> My bad for dragging us into the provincial arena ...
> 
> Bringing it back to the national focus, here's the latest from 338canada.com and the Election Prediction Project (here's how they read the tea leaves) -- still big margins of error, but here's the latest bones that have been cast.



I actually don't care who wins anymore, but the parties are all completely inept and also clearly only care about nabbing cabinet positions for themselves if they don't demand the Liberals replace Trudeau in order to govern.... coalition or not.


----------



## a_majoor (18 Oct 2019)

The question about Autism actually reflects a broader issue in that the questioner clearly does not understand how Canada's government works. Questions about Healthcare should be directed to the Provincial government, as it is their jurisdiction.

Of course I have seen it elsewhere. At the 2019 all candidates meeting at King's College here in London, _*not one*_ of the students asked any questions relating to federal responsibilities. The problem was compounded by the format (essentially 30 second answers) and most of the candidates actually answering these questions rather than enlightening the students that these were not things they could or would work on as MPs. Of course a lot of the Kings College staff were also there gazing approvingly at the results of their educational work....

In a previous election, a friend of mine was a candidate and I went with her on some canvassing, where the people at the door asked her if she was elected would she fix the pothole at the end of the street...

And in 2006, I made a run for Mayor of London (mostly to have a platform to make some points), and had to tackle the then Mayor because _her_ primary campaign promise was to "stop Toronto garbage from being trucked to landfills in Michigan". You can imagine her reaction to my constantly dragging the discussion back to infrastructure and taxation.....


----------



## The Bread Guy (18 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> ... * CBC won't sue Liberals over partisan ad using their material* ...


... because the candidate took down material the _first_ time CBC asked 


			
				Thucydides said:
			
		

> And in 2006, I made a run for Mayor of London (mostly to have a platform to make some points), and had to tackle the then Mayor because _her_ primary campaign promise was to "stop Toronto garbage from being trucked to landfills in Michigan". You can imagine her reaction to my constantly dragging the discussion back to infrastructure and taxation.....


Yup - after spending some time watching municipal politics and having to explain it to people in a previous life, I learned a _lot_ of people think "government" is WAY more of a single "borg" than it really is.  Sometimes, though, different levels of government want to help with a problem they don't have _direct_ control over, so they do what they can.  Some municipalities, for example, have set up teams to help attract doctors to underserviced areas, even though health is a generally a fed-regulates-prov-delivers kinda service.


			
				Thucydides said:
			
		

> The question about Autism actually reflects a broader issue in that the questioner clearly does not understand how Canada's government works. Questions about Healthcare should be directed to the Provincial government, as it is their jurisdiction.


The provinces _deliver_ the services, but health is not _exclusively_ their jurisdiction.  That's one of those "both levels have some role" federalism things, like labour, agriculture, transportation and the environment - notice there are both provincial and federal ministers in these areas.  

Some of the federal job is to set national standards to prevent tooooooooo much of a difference between different provinces.  Why are there not different standards, say, for pilots' medicals in different provinces?  Team Fed can do things like develop national strategies to cover things like diabetes, suicide prevention and mental health.  This explains why Team Blue, for example, wants to flesh out a national autism strategy.  

How useful are these strategies?  How good were the processes leading to these strategies?  Do we need national standards, rules or guidelines for X when the provinces know well enough what's needed on the ground?  All good topics for debate.  But is Canada "in the business" of some stuff that is also the business of provinces, including health?  Yup.


----------



## Jarnhamar (18 Oct 2019)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> ... because the candidate took down material the _first_ time CBC asked



I thought the Conservatives did as well. 



> The video had been up since September 12 before CBC sought to have it taken down just this week. In the case of the Conservatives using CBC material, *the party says they complied with the request to remove the material before the lawsuit was launched.*


----------



## daftandbarmy (18 Oct 2019)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> And in 2006, I made a run for Mayor of London (mostly to have a platform to make some points), and had to tackle the then Mayor because _her_ primary campaign promise was to "stop Toronto garbage from being trucked to landfills in Michigan". You can imagine her reaction to my constantly dragging the discussion back to infrastructure and taxation.....



You, Sir, deserve a medal....   :nod:


----------



## The Bread Guy (18 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I thought the Conservatives did as well.


I can't access the initial court filing where I am now, but according to one legal blogger who says CBC looks more than a little goofy on this one, _"the video was moved to a private setting on YouTube on the day the lawsuit was filed and the tweets were deleted"_.  And in 2015, they pulled material after more ignored letters & once they got the legal paperwork (which led to an out-of-court settlement).


----------



## dapaterson (18 Oct 2019)

I think this election cycle can best be described by some modern philosopher kings.

Some will win, some will lose
Some were born to sing the blues
Oh, the movie never ends
It goes on and on and on and on


----------



## Jonezy76 (18 Oct 2019)

Interesting read.... It may happen next week.

Seems that a PM is PM until he/she resigns.

No, the party with the most seats doesn't always govern.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/elections/no-the-party-with-the-most-seats-doesnt-always-govern/ar-AAIYqsX?ocid=spartanntp


----------



## The Bread Guy (18 Oct 2019)

Jonezy76 said:
			
		

> Interesting read.... It may happen next week.
> 
> Seems that a PM is PM until he/she resigns.
> 
> ...


Incumbent gets first crack ... more on that here ...
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/scheer-trudeau-minority-government-2019-election-1.5324496
... and how it's unfolded in the past here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_minority_governments_in_Canada


----------



## Remius (18 Oct 2019)

Jonezy76 said:
			
		

> Interesting read.... It may happen next week.
> 
> Seems that a PM is PM until he/she resigns.
> 
> ...



Yup.  And Andrew Scheer knows this.  But his claim is about creating a narrative and cause difficulties for when it does happen.


----------



## Remius (18 Oct 2019)

So three scenarios for Monday.


1) Liberal minority with NDP support/coalition.  If this happens I expect that the government will last a while as long as NDP demands are met.  Singh may be in cabinet.  Heck they could even give them the environment file and let them deal with the provinces.  Pontis Pilate style. 

2) Conservative minority.  Won't last.  Opposition parties will want to hit them early.  NDP won't work with them at all, Bloc won't agree to scrap the carbon tax.  Very hard to see how they will govern. 

3) Conservative majority.  Might happen but unlikely.  Enough people need to come out of the wood work to surprise everyone, not sure Scheer ran  strong enough campaign for that. 

We'll see Monday night. Butwill be a late one.  But with 5 million advance voters we might actually already have a good idea of where this is going.


----------



## dapaterson (18 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> So three scenarios for Monday.
> 
> 
> 1) Liberal minority with NDP support/coalition.  If this happens I expect that the government will last a while as long as NDP demands are met.  Singh may be in cabinet.  Heck they could even give them the environment file and let them deal with the provinces.  Pontis Pilate style.
> ...



Option 4 is looking increasingly appealing...


----------



## Remius (18 Oct 2019)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Option 4 is looking increasingly appealing...



is that not the same as option 1?   ;D


----------



## AbdullahD (18 Oct 2019)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Option 4 is looking increasingly appealing...



Did not realize I could vote for that option. Dangit.


----------



## OldSolduer (18 Oct 2019)

Is Lord Vader running for office? At least his campaign is honest.

Together we can rule the galaxy.....


----------



## stellarpanther (18 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> What's the alternative to providing a set amount of funding? Blank check perhaps?


I think you're missing the point of what I'm trying to say.  He flat out lied to this guys face instead of telling him the truth and then quickly took off before the media could question it.  I agree with what you are saying that no government can give out blank cheques and fund everything but at least have the courage and decency to say it instead of a flat out lie.  If I could find the clip to post on here I would. 

I disagree with Trudeau saying we don't have the money to give the Veterans everything they are asking for right now, but at least he said it and didn't promise something that wasn't going to happen.


----------



## Jarnhamar (18 Oct 2019)

You're right I don't understand. Can you explain to me how he lied?

It looks like he said yes we will. And then someone in his party confirmed it would be 50 million over 5 years.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (18 Oct 2019)

E-Day - 2.   op:


----------



## The Bread Guy (18 Oct 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> ... He flat out lied to this guys face instead of telling him the truth ...


What was the lie, and what was the truth?  Even I saw the same thing said twice ???


----------



## SeaKingTacco (18 Oct 2019)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> E-Day - 2.   op:



This particular campaign cannot end soon enough for me...

Unfortunately, I think we will be back the polls by the Spring.


----------



## Remius (18 Oct 2019)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> This particular campaign cannot end soon enough for me...
> 
> Unfortunately, I think we will be back the polls by the Spring.



Conservative convention is in April.  They will likely be picking a leader at that point.  So maybe 18 months from now?


----------



## stellarpanther (18 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> You're right I don't understand. Can you explain to me how he lied?
> 
> It looks like he said yes we will. And then someone in his party confirmed it would be 50 million over 5 years.


Specifically, the commitment Scheer made to this father was that he would negotiate full treatment with the provinces but that isn't what is actually going to happen if he is elected.  The Party clarified later that there plan is to spend fifty million towards developing a national strategy.  While that's something, it's not the same as funding treatment.  Scheer was very clear what he said.  He clearly said treatment.  Watch the video about 43 seconds in and you will see and hear him commit to treatment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2Cxr-FTfyU


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Oct 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2Cxr-FTfyU


Thanks for the video - seen.  A promise to negotiate with the provinces for full treatment =/= money for a strategy/framework.

Glass-half-empty:  He committed to something "the book" didn't say, so it's not going to happen.

Glass-half-full:  Gotcha!  If he gets elected and doesn't do it, this'll be the clip parents of kids on the spectrum'll be playing over and over again.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (19 Oct 2019)

Glass tipped over sideways, empty of liquid: Ooops! I made a Boo Boo. I said I would respect provincial jurisdiction ... which this is.

 [:-[


I am with SKT on this one: Can't wait t'ill it's over. I don't think I recall an electoral campaign as boring and devoid of factual issues as this one since the Clark = Trudeau (Sr.) one that gave us a minority Tory government.


----------



## Jarnhamar (19 Oct 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Specifically, the commitment Scheer made to this father was that he would negotiate full treatment with the provinces but that isn't what is actually going to happen if he is elected.


I see what you mean.. Thanks for explaining.


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Oct 2019)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Glass tipped over sideways, empty of liquid: Ooops! I made a Boo Boo. I said I would respect provincial jurisdiction ... which this is.


If this really is JUST provincial jurisdiction, if Team Blue wins, I look forward to their getting rid of the federal ministry of health, then - lotsa money to be saved there.  Hell, transport, agriculture, labour - shut 'em all down.  Fewer bureaucrats, smaller government, eliminated redundancy, fewer cabinet ministers needed, all in one fell swoop! ;D


			
				Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> ... Can't wait t'ill it's over. I don't think I recall an electoral campaign as boring and devoid of factual issues as this one since the Clark = Trudeau (Sr.) one that gave us a minority Tory government.


:nod: And I suspect the shrillness will only get worse down the line


----------



## PPCLI Guy (19 Oct 2019)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> I am with SKT on this one: Can't wait t'ill it's over. I don't think I recall an electoral campaign as boring and devoid of factual issues as this one since the Clark = Trudeau (Sr.) one that gave us a minority Tory government.



This is like a Seinfeld election - it is about nothing.  

We get to chose between two uninspiring and unimpressive individuals, who represent parties with very few differences of substance, and even fewer talents of substance, neither of whom have a clue how to govern, or have the stomach to make hard choices.  

Having said that, on 22 Oct Canada will still be Canada, resilient, predictable and boring as ever.


----------



## dimsum (19 Oct 2019)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Having said that, on 22 Oct Canada will still be Canada, resilient, predictable and boring as ever.



That's a good thing, right?  I'd rather it not be a choice of "good" vs "complete dumpster fire".


----------



## Remius (19 Oct 2019)

Interesting.

https://election.ctvnews.ca/scheer-won-t-say-if-conservatives-hired-consultant-to-destroy-people-s-party-1.4646062


----------



## PuckChaser (19 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Interesting.
> 
> https://election.ctvnews.ca/scheer-won-t-say-if-conservatives-hired-consultant-to-destroy-people-s-party-1.4646062



No actual proof. Some guy said something.

Realistically, isn't this what the Liberals were doing anyways? Targeting the Tories and PPC as racists and climate haters? Colour me surprised that a political party would target another political party with partisan spin on their message.

The Liberals legitimately hired Gerald Butts who tried to tie Andrew Scheer to the yellow vests movement because he had a picture taken with a construction worker, but there's no big story being run about that. I guess its about the narrative the journalists want you to hear.


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Oct 2019)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> No actual proof. Some guy said something.


:sarcasm: Good point - it can't _possibly_ be true unless Twitter & FB are being overwhelmed with different people sharing, resharing & amplifying the "some guy said something.":sarcasm:

#SadStateOfAffairsOfPoliticsToday  :'(


----------



## Remius (19 Oct 2019)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> No actual proof. Some guy said something.
> 
> Realistically, isn't this what the Liberals were doing anyways? Targeting the Tories and PPC as racists and climate haters? Colour me surprised that a political party would target another political party with partisan spin on their message.
> 
> The Liberals legitimately hired Gerald Butts who tried to tie Andrew Scheer to the yellow vests movement because he had a picture taken with a construction worker, but there's no big story being run about that. I guess its about the narrative the journalists want you to hear.



Given that it is Warren Kinsella they hired I find it interesting.  They had to get a liberal to do it   ;D


----------



## Retired AF Guy (19 Oct 2019)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> No actual proof. Some guy said something.



Or a Russian/Chinese troll just trying to stir up crap.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (19 Oct 2019)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> That's a good thing, right?  I'd rather it not be a choice of "good" vs "complete dumpster fire".



It is great thing, and one of the reasons this country is a great place to live, without being a "Great" country


----------



## Jarnhamar (19 Oct 2019)

Trudeau: guns in Canada will never be confiscated.

https://youtu.be/FDCgk-ToyY4


----------



## Remius (19 Oct 2019)

Andrew Coyne gives a scathing but fairly accurate picture of this election.

https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/election-2019/andrew-coyne-cant-the-liberals-and-conservatives-both-lose?video_autoplay=true


----------



## Journeyman (20 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Andrew Coyne gives a scathing but fairly accurate picture of this election.
> 
> https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/election-2019/andrew-coyne-*cant-the-liberals-and-conservatives-both-lose?*video_autoplay=true


In the minds of many, they already have.  Perhaps that's why the "fringe" parties are doing better than usual.


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 Oct 2019)

I wish Canadians had more power to vote for the party leader they wanted. Not just given a couple choices on who the party mafia props up.

And I wish independents had an easier time and less obstacles. There's probably a soccer mom or hockey dad out there who would be amazing at the job. 

My area is a conservative strong hold (with an obnoxious MP) but an independent named Dheerendra Kumar (who's a physiotherapist) seems to be doing surprisingly well. If it wasn't for my own biggest issue being at stake this election I'd probably vote for him. 

If Trudeau is out of the picture in 4 years I can see myself voting PPC or an independent next election.

If it's true about the Conservatives hiring  that social media hit squad I hope the party gets hammered over it and Scheer sent back to working insurence.


----------



## tomahawk6 (20 Oct 2019)

The news down here is the prediction he will lose due to his policy of higher taxes and climate change with a little black face on the side. The prediction business is frought with peril and quite often wrong but we shall see.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (20 Oct 2019)

Interesting article at Reason.com/Volokh Conspiracy that looks at Obama's endorsement of PM Trudeau:



> Obama, Trudeau, and the Morality of Electoral Interference
> 
> Barack Obama's recent endorsement of Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is an example of why not all foreign efforts to influence elections are wrong.
> 
> ...



Link


----------



## stellarpanther (20 Oct 2019)

To me the big difference is that Obama gave his opinion of how he felt about Trudeau and the way he saw things.  The Russians spread lies by creating fake news stories on FB and much more.  I wouldn't even have an issue if Trump (a sitting President) gave his support to Scheer because it's an opinion.  It would be different if he came out saying that voters should vote for the person he wants or he'll ruin Canada.


----------



## daftandbarmy (20 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I wish Canadians had more power to vote for the party leader they wanted. Not just given a couple choices on who the party mafia props up.



Nicely summarizing the Green Party platform


----------



## The Bread Guy (21 Oct 2019)

Last roll of the "number of seat" bones courtesy of 338Canada.com, electionarium.com and the Election Prediction Project.

If you haven't voted, get out there & vote.

op:


----------



## Remius (21 Oct 2019)

338 is predicting 145 for the LPC?

I'm going to go with 135 for the LPC as I think some quiet CPC voters will turn out and play spoiler in a few riding. 

They will have the most seats but only by slim margin. 

Hopefully both leaders will be gone by the time we have to do this again.


----------



## dapaterson (21 Oct 2019)

The 338 prediction is between 80 and 200, with 145 their best estimate.

But those are huge error bars; the takeaway is "Nobody's certain where this is going to land".


----------



## OldSolduer (21 Oct 2019)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> "Nobody's certain where this is going to land".



That's the best prediction I've heard. I'm so glad this is over.


----------



## daftandbarmy (21 Oct 2019)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> That's the best prediction I've heard. I'm so glad this is over.



Nanos is reporting a razor thin Conservative lead 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/files/editorial/politics/nanos/final-poll-20191020.pdf

If so, this might not be over ... until it's over (by next week?).


----------



## Remius (21 Oct 2019)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> That's the best prediction I've heard. I'm so glad this is over.



I suspect a few weeks of lawyers, challenges and debates over who will govern...unfortunately.


----------



## stellarpanther (21 Oct 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Nanos is reporting a razor thin Conservative lead
> 
> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/files/editorial/politics/nanos/final-poll-20191020.pdf
> 
> If so, this might not be over ... until it's over (by next week?).



I'm not sure how much faith I give Nano's or any other polling agency.  They get it wrong a lot.  When Nano's releases the daily tracking poll, do they ask the same people or ask different people each day?  The reason I'm asking is that a couple days ago the Liberals were up according to Nano's by 2 percent, the next day the CPC had a half a percentage point lead.


----------



## Remius (21 Oct 2019)

They were pretty much on the money last time. 

Also, vote share does not mean the same as seats won.  Maybe they lead in popular vote but the seat advantage is still in the LPC favour.


----------



## The Bread Guy (21 Oct 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Nanos is reporting a razor thin Conservative lead
> 
> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/files/editorial/politics/nanos/final-poll-20191020.pdf


With a margin of error of +/- 3.6 points, a 0.8 point difference = neck & neck - seems to be just like everyone else is showing at this point.



			
				daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> If so, this might not be over ... until it's over (by next week?).


op:


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (21 Oct 2019)

Polling is mostly BS.  The margins of error are great enough that they don't even matter. Popular vote is also another useless metric.  

The Canadian Electoral System is not one election, it is 338 separate elections. 

The polls are highly inaccurate because IOT be accurate, they would need to do 338 separate polls.  

I put no real stock in polls.  The Conservatives could win 190+ seats or they could win 100, the polls cannot predict the moods of each individual election riding.


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Oct 2019)

Conservative-Green idea seems pretty solid too come to think of it.

It would be nice to have Trudeau and Scheer shown the door door and have new leadership brought in. It would also be nice to have bigger repercussions for broken promises.


----------



## Furniture (21 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Conservative-Green idea seems pretty solid too come to think of it.
> 
> It would be nice to have Trudeau and Scheer shown the door door and have new leadership brought in. It would also be nice to have bigger repercussions for broken promises.



The people in charge of that are making their judgement today. Though I suspect most don't know/care enough to make their judgement fair, and reasoned.


----------



## Remius (21 Oct 2019)

Furniture said:
			
		

> The people in charge of that are making their judgement today. Though I suspect most don't know/care enough to make their judgement fair, and reasoned.



Maybe. A lot of people I know are making fair and reasoned decisions. ( A few are voting based on fake news and others are voting the same as they always have without any real thought.)  They are just not happy about it.  I wasn’t happy with mine but had very few choices where to park my vote.  

But I haven’t heard anyone say they aren’t voting. 

Disclaimer: my statement here is purely anecdotal.


----------



## QV (21 Oct 2019)

Given what we all know today, I don't know how anyone in good conscious could possibly vote for the LPC this election cycle.      

If Trudeau had been replaced by a new leader within his party, then I'd be understanding of an LPC vote.  But that party didn't do that so they are all abettors, excepting those who resigned or were forced out.  As it stands today, a vote for the LPC is condoning a very unethical and possibly criminally liable government.  

Shameful. 

IMHO.


----------



## BurnDoctor (21 Oct 2019)

QV said:
			
		

> Given what we all know today, I don't know how anyone in good conscious could possibly vote for the LPC this election cycle.
> 
> If Trudeau had been replaced by a new leader within his party, then I'd be understanding of an LPC vote.  But that party didn't do that so they are all abettors, excepting those who resigned or were forced out.  As it stands today, a vote for the LPC is condoning a very unethical and possibly criminally liable government.
> 
> ...



Yup, what QV said.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (21 Oct 2019)

Decisions, decisions.  Well, for me, it's all over until the next one.  When looking at the choices on the ballot paper, I hadn't really made up my mind to that point.  I hadn't noticed a whole lot of public campaigning on the part of individual candidates; I suppose the expectation was that the Conservative incumbent would easily be re-elected (it is Alberta, after all).  In lawn signs, the Conservative was definitely in the lead  with a sprinkling of NDP and Greens, a few PPC and only one or two Liberal.  Oh, I even saw one sign from the Rhinoceros Party (I should have taken a pic of that one because it was satirically humourous ).  On the ballot only two names were familiar, the incumbent Conservative (my personal dislike of him from even before the 2015 election hasn't changed) and the Christian Heritage candidate, and that because he was the only one who door-knocked in my neighbourhood - I, partly out of courtesy, spoke to him for a couple of minutes and took the opportunity to dissuade him of any notion that simply because I'm retired military I may share his views (I was wearing an old T-shirt from having been there, done that when he unexpectedly showed up and so identified my former profession).

I suppose I could have voted in the advance poll like the 5 million other Canadians who did so.  Depending on voter turnout, it is possible that the advance poll could count for up to almost a third of the votes, but even if it matches the increased turnout of the last election, it will be more than a quarter of the result.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (21 Oct 2019)

Well, the polls in Newfoundland and Labrador close in 40 minutes and the Maritime 30 minutes after that. It will be interesting.


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Oct 2019)

QV said:
			
		

> Given what we all know today, I don't know how anyone in good conscious could possibly vote for the LPC this election cycle.
> 
> If Trudeau had been replaced by a new leader within his party, then I'd be understanding of an LPC vote.  But that party didn't do that so they are all abettors, excepting those who resigned or were forced out.  As it stands today, * a vote for the LPC is condoning a very unethical and possibly criminally liable government.
> 
> ...



Absolutely agree with you.


----------



## brihard (21 Oct 2019)

My riding is a lock for the CPC anyway, but I ended up casting a protest vote. Neither of the contenders deserved my ballot this time around.

I’m just hoping for a minority, whoever it ends up being. However the balance of power plays out in parliament I’m going to do my best to grit my teeth, embrace the schadenfreude, and at least know that literally almost nobody will be happy.


----------



## Remius (21 Oct 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> My riding is a lock for the CPC anyway, but I ended up casting a protest vote. Neither of the contenders deserved my ballot this time around.
> 
> I’m just hoping for a minority, whoever it ends up being. However the balance of power plays out in parliament I’m going to do my best to grit my teeth, embrace the schadenfreude, and at least know that literally almost nobody will be happy.



Same.  I’ll be happy with a minority.  Hopefully get new leaders. 

Bonus is if my current MP who is not very likeable gets the boot.  Has nothing to do with his political stripe but he’s a career politician who does his best to be detestable.  He’ll likely win though.


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Oct 2019)

It would be nice if both the Conservatives and Liberals were given a time out for 4 years and weren't eligible to lead.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (21 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> It would be nice if both the Conservatives and Liberals were given a time out for 4 years and weren't eligible to lead.



You mean let the NDP and Green govern?? If either one of those parties got their hands on the piggy bank the country would be in the poor house for next century.


----------



## Remius (21 Oct 2019)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> You mean let the NDP and Green govern?? If either one of those parties got their hands on the piggy bank the country would be in the poor house for next century.



I’m pretty sure it was more of a sentiment than an endorsement for the others.  I’ll settle for a benevolent dictator and council of common sense folks for five years so we can reset.


----------



## dapaterson (21 Oct 2019)

I'm still longing for the Rhinos...


----------



## AbdullahD (21 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> It would be nice if both the Conservatives and Liberals were given a time out for 4 years and weren't eligible to lead.



A PPC/ Green coalition for 4 years?

I could deal with that.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (21 Oct 2019)

Initial (very early) poll results from NFLD have the Liberals in the lead in 7 ridings and the CPC in 1.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (21 Oct 2019)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I'm still longing for the Rhinos...



Yes, nice to see them back on the ballot... :cheers:


----------



## Remius (21 Oct 2019)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Initial (very early) poll results from NFLD have the Liberals in the lead in 7 ridings and the CPC in 1.



Some close results in some of those...


----------



## dapaterson (21 Oct 2019)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Initial (very early) poll results from NFLD have the Liberals in the lead in 7 ridings and the CPC in 1.



Which is impressive, since NL has only seven seats total 

The forecasts at ElectionPrediction and Electionarium both say the split will be 6 Liberals and an NDP pickup in St John's East.
https://www.electionprediction.org/2019_fed/p_10al.php
https://electionarium.com/newfoundland-and-labrador-federal-election-2019-seat-predictions-results/


----------



## Retired AF Guy (21 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Some close results in some of those...



Watching Global News and initial results show the CPC doing very good in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick.


----------



## Remius (21 Oct 2019)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Watching Global News and initial results show the CPC doing very good in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick.



Something like 14 ridings are close.  If the CPC get double digits in Atlantic Canada they will be off to a decent start.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (21 Oct 2019)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Watching Global News and initial results show the CPC doing very good in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick.



Spoke to soon , Libs making a comeback.


----------



## Remius (21 Oct 2019)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Spoke to soon , Libs making a comeback.



Still early.  Some tight races.


----------



## brihard (21 Oct 2019)

Gonna be a bit more time yet before enough polls are in to really make many calls there... But the Liberals have definitely taken some hits.


----------



## Remius (21 Oct 2019)

Quebec polls starting to come in.


----------



## my72jeep (21 Oct 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Gonna be a bit more time yet before enough polls are in to really make many calls there... But the Liberals have definitely taken some hits.


We can only hope the liberals take enough hits to sink.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (21 Oct 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Gonna be a bit more time yet before enough polls are in to really make many calls there... But the Liberals have definitely taken some hits.



NB has panned out about what I expected.  Atlantic Canada is super predictable, there are a tonne of ridings that Adolf Hitler could run for one of the major two parties and he would win.


----------



## Remius (21 Oct 2019)

Green’s have a real chance of winning a seat in Atlantic Canada at this point.


----------



## brihard (21 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Green’s have a real chance of winning a seat in Atlantic Canada at this point.



Greens are gonna have a few surprises for us, I think. They’re tallying surprise 2nd or 3rd in a number of ridings- hell, they may have taken Freddy when they were polling in third. I believe we’ll see the major parties accepting the necessity of paying more heed to environmental and climate issues. I’m ok with the thought that support for the Greens will pull the other platforms modestly in that direction.

And as I post this, everywhere else except BC and the Yukon is closing. 262 ridings about to start opening boxes.


----------



## Remius (21 Oct 2019)

Mad max falling behind lol.


----------



## brihard (21 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Mad max falling behind lol.



Just saw that, granted only 5/242 polls reporting. I won’t get my hopes up yet, as much as a PPC shutout would please me.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (21 Oct 2019)

Global News is predicting a Liberal Minority government. Lib: 54; CPC: 38; BQ: 11; NDP:7, and Grn:1

Elections Canada predictions very similar.


----------



## brihard (21 Oct 2019)

CTV is also calling it for the Liberals, though not yet minority/majority. That’s an early call.

The devil being in the details, let’s see how the rest stack up...

Let’s also see if the CPC can manage to suck less in their next leadership election, and I’ll be curious to see if PPC made the difference in many/any ridings to the detriment of the Conservatives.


----------



## Remius (21 Oct 2019)

CBC just made the call as well.  Just not how it will play out.


----------



## Altair (21 Oct 2019)

A good night.


----------



## BurnDoctor (21 Oct 2019)

Altair said:
			
		

> A good night.



NOT a good night. It says that our country is ok with giving someone a pass for gross incompetence, ethics violations, financial mismanagement, misogyny, etc.

I weep for this country.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (21 Oct 2019)

Liberals making it official: Liberal Minority govt (Lib:144; CPC: 102: BQ: 31: NDP:21). That's even before any results come in from western Canada.


----------



## observor 69 (21 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> CBC just made the call as well.  Just not how it will play out.



CBC just called it a Liberal minority.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (21 Oct 2019)

Some party leaders should be careful: knives are being sharpened.


----------



## Altair (21 Oct 2019)

BurnDoctor said:
			
		

> NOT a good night. It says that our country is ok with giving someone a pass for gross incompetence, ethics violations, financial mismanagement, misogyny, etc.
> 
> I weep for this country.


I feel like its a good night.


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Oct 2019)

How long could we expect a minority government to last?


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Oct 2019)

BurnDoctor said:
			
		

> NOT a good night. It says that our country is ok with giving someone a pass for gross incompetence, ethics violations, financial mismanagement, misogyny, etc.
> 
> I weep for this country.



I'm sure a lot of Canadians don't care about silly things like ethics if it doesn't directly impact them.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (21 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> How long could we expect a minority government to last?



History suggests 18-24 months.  Time enough for the Conservatives to search their souls and chose a leader of their party ready to be the leader of the the country.....


----------



## dapaterson (21 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> How long could we expect a minority government to last?


Eighteen months is my call. But I have often been wrong before.


----------



## stellarpanther (21 Oct 2019)

I'm sure I'll be proven wrong but I think this will last because no other party wants to see the CPC running the country.


----------



## daftandbarmy (21 Oct 2019)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> History suggests 18-24 months.  Time enough for the Conservatives to search their souls and chose a leader of their party ready to be the leader of the the country.....



... and the best man for that job is probably a female conservative MP, IMHO


----------



## AbdullahD (21 Oct 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I'm sure I'll be proven wrong but I think this will last because no other party wants to see the CPC running the country.



Unless the NDP think they can steal it... I'd love CPC minority with NDP official opposition.


----------



## Remius (21 Oct 2019)

Lisa Raitt, currently behind.

Jane philpot, JWR behind as well.


----------



## BurnDoctor (21 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Lisa Raitt, currently behind.
> 
> Jane philpot, JWR behind as well.



Does that lend credence to the idea that Liberals are fake feminists like their leader?


----------



## Remius (21 Oct 2019)

Mad max.  Done.


----------



## brihard (21 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> How long could we expect a minority government to last?



The Bloc can prop the Liberals up on their own. The NDP/Green or possibly NDP on their own will probably also be able to. The Liberals will have a lot of options... They’re good for a while; they won’t fall until both Bloc and NDP each think that they stand to gain from an early election.

We’re also sitting with not many polls reporting still in many areas, so little is yet carved in stone.

Beauce is being called for the CPC. The PPC look to have been completely shut out, which I think is a very good thing for Canada.


----------



## Remius (22 Oct 2019)

The NDP is broke and won’t want another campaign anytime soon.


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Oct 2019)

Are Conservatives winning the popular vote?


----------



## Remius (22 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Are Conservatives winning the popular vote?



Pretty much what the pollsters were saying.  33% each.  CPC à fraction ahead.


Correction:  34 for the CPC, 33.7 for the LPC


----------



## BurnDoctor (22 Oct 2019)

Welp, I’m out. First thing in the morning. Hope to see some of you over on army.ab someday.


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Pretty much what the pollsters were saying.  33% each.  CPC à fraction ahead.
> 
> 
> Correction:  34 for the CPC, 33.7 for the LPC



Mariomike does this mean you're going to be arguing that Scheer should have won the election?


----------



## brihard (22 Oct 2019)

BurnDoctor said:
			
		

> Welp, I’m out. First thing in the morning. Hope to see some of you over on army.ab someday.



You’ll be fine.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (22 Oct 2019)

The CPC ran a terrible campaign. I hope heads roll.

On the Liberal side, it looks like Ralph Goodale might be finished in Regina.


----------



## tomahawk6 (22 Oct 2019)

So the Libs will form a minority government or at least try to. A new election in 18 to 24 months ?


----------



## Remius (22 Oct 2019)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> So the Libs will form a minority government or at least try to. A new election in 18 to 24 months ?



That’s a possible timeframe.  But the NDP is broke and needs time to fill their coffers. They will prop up the LPC for a while.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (22 Oct 2019)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> So the Libs will form a minority government or at least try to. A new election in 18 to 24 months ?



Yes- they are only about a dozen short of a majority. I would expect they will make deal with the NDP. Or the NDP may decide to just support them on an issue by issue basis.

The interesting thing is what this means for Elizabeth May. She might be finished, too. 3(ish) seats for the Greens is not the bearkthrough they were hoping for.


----------



## Cloud Cover (22 Oct 2019)

Goodale is out.


----------



## Brad Sallows (22 Oct 2019)

The willingness of an opposition party to go along with defeating a minority will depend on whether it has funds to fight an election and whether it likes the leader it has.  If, for example, the NDP is low on funds and decides to blame underperformance (looking at about 25 elected/leading at this moment, with final poll aggregations having predicted 32+) on Singh, the NDP will not be in a hurry to defeat the government.

Likewise, if the CPC fails to hit 125 to 130, it might want to replace Scheer before defeating a minority.


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Oct 2019)

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> Goodale is out.


Where do I go to see if Mark holland is out?


----------



## Altair (22 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Where do I go to see if Mark holland is out?


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/election2019/results/


----------



## Remius (22 Oct 2019)

I think Singh will stay on.  Early predictions had them losing party status. He may still have his party’s support.

Scheer once again put himself into a corner when he says that when the party that doesn’t win the most seats it is the modern convention that the leader steps down.


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Oct 2019)

Altair said:
			
		

> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/election2019/results/



Shit. He's a real bag of hammers. That's too bad but at least Goodale is gone.


----------



## Remius (22 Oct 2019)

JWR just pulled ahead.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (22 Oct 2019)

The NDP got smashed.  They had a real chance to put a francophone in charge which could have soldified Quebec for them but they blew it pandering the base.  I hope Singh is done, they are going nowhere with him in charge.

Cons need to find a leader with some curb appeal, looks and a bit of charisma.  Andrew Scheer is like a mini-Harper


----------



## brihard (22 Oct 2019)

JWR kept her seat by a fairly comfortable margin. Good for her, getting elected as an independent is exceedingly rare.


----------



## The Bread Guy (22 Oct 2019)

Latest #'s via Elections Canada (as of this post - click on link for the latest) and 338Canada.ca, with a reminder for everyone of all team jersey colours also attached ...


----------



## tomahawk6 (22 Oct 2019)

As predicted the Libs are now a minority party so who will their junior partner be ? 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/federal-election-results-2019-cbc-leaders-1.5329485


----------



## ModlrMike (22 Oct 2019)

Clearly the NDP. The only question is how hard they're going to squeeze the Liberals in order to compensate for that support.


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Oct 2019)

If I was Trudeau I'd dress as Kirk Lazarus for Halloween just to remind Canada who's boss.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (22 Oct 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> JWR kept her seat by a fairly comfortable margin. Good for her, getting elected as an independent is exceedingly rare.



What would happen, do you suppose, if the Conservatives nominated her for Speaker? The numbers are there for her to be elected (even without the Liberals) and she would be in Trudeau's face, every day.


----------



## Journeyman (22 Oct 2019)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> What would happen, do you suppose, if the Conservatives nominated her for Speaker?


Actually, that would be brilliant... and not just for torqueing Trudeau.  She's very competent, has a track record of ethical behaviour and not being cowed into inappropriate decision-making, and couldn't really accomplish much as an Independent.  I think she'd be a very good Speaker.


----------



## dapaterson (22 Oct 2019)

So, Cabinet '19: With Goodale losing, who gets Public Security?  A very high profile position that's now vacant...


----------



## SeaKingTacco (22 Oct 2019)

Bill Blair?


----------



## Journeyman (22 Oct 2019)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> So, Cabinet '19: With Goodale losing, who gets Public Security?  A very high profile position that's now vacant...


Jaspal Atwal?   

After all, the _2018 Public Report on the Terrorism Threat to Canada_  deleted references to Sikh terrorism so Trudeau could play dress-up, yet again, in Vancouver's Vaisakhi parade.  Air India 182/Narita airport bombing?  Indira Gandhi's assassination?  Tamil Tiger child suicide bombers?  All misunderstandings.


----------



## Jonezy76 (22 Oct 2019)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> So, Cabinet '19: With Goodale losing, who gets Public Security?  A very high profile position that's now vacant...



Blair or Holland?


----------



## daftandbarmy (22 Oct 2019)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Actually, that would be brilliant... and not just for torqueing Trudeau.  She's very competent, has a track record of ethical behaviour and not being cowed into inappropriate decision-making, and couldn't really accomplish much as an Independent.  I think she'd be a very good Speaker.



... and should be in charge of making audio tapes of all the sessions!


----------



## tomahawk6 (22 Oct 2019)

While the conservatives swept oil country they now must pick up more seats in Ontario would that be a correct assessment ?


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Oct 2019)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> While the conservatives swept oil country they now must pick up more seats in Ontario would that be a correct assessment ?



Toronto and Quebec decide who wins.


----------



## brihard (22 Oct 2019)

Point of interest- I crunches the numbers this AM. There are six seats where the Liberals beat the CPC by fewer votes than the PPC received. It wouldn’t affect the balance of power at all, but it’s interesting.

Two in Atlantic, one in Ontario, two in BC, and Yukon.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (22 Oct 2019)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> What would happen, do you suppose, if the Conservatives nominated her for Speaker? The numbers are there for her to be elected (even without the Liberals) and she would be in Trudeau's face, every day.



No, the Speaker should be (usually is) a seasoned parliamentarian who has no personal political agenda (or opinion, or profile) so public that it detracts from carrying out his duties in the chair - the ultimate gray man (John Bercow is an aberration, an entertaining and effective one to be sure, but still an aberration).  In the current Canadian political climate finding someone who has nothing more to offer his party, or no longer has an accepting audience wanting to hear his/her different vision for Canada, but still wants the perks of being at the centre of parliament would be difficult.  Following the sometimes practise of minority governments installing someone from the opposition, the obvious choice would a man with experience - Andrew Sheer.


----------



## Remius (22 Oct 2019)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> No, the Speaker should be (usually is) a seasoned parliamentarian who has no personal political agenda (or opinion, or profile) so public that it detracts from carrying out his duties in the chair - the ultimate gray man (John Bercow is an aberration, an entertaining and effective one to be sure, but still an aberration).  In the current Canadian political climate finding someone who has nothing more to offer his party, or no longer has an accepting audience wanting to hear his/her different vision for Canada, but still wants the perks of being at the centre of parliament would be difficult.  Following the sometimes practise of minority governments installing someone from the opposition, the obvious choice would a man with experience - Andrew Sheer.



After being the leader of a party and running for PM that is the last person who should be considered.


----------



## Brad Sallows (22 Oct 2019)

Things I found noteworthy:

1) Poll aggregation predictions were pretty good.

1a) LPC overperformed and CPC underperformed slightly (relative to polls); NDP badly underperformed.

2) LPC vote efficiency is confirmed.  

2a) People who favour election reform are foolish to believe any LPC promise except one that ends with a proposal designed to retain LPC advantage (eg. ranked voting). 

3) "Handmaiden-to-Liberals" strategies are losers for the NDP (Mulcair, Singh).  

3a) Without someone like Jack Layton who understands that the path to NDP government necessarily means crushing the LPC between the NDP and CPC, the NDP will never govern Canada.

4) Scheer isn't good enough, and the CPC platform was too weak.  (Customary wisdom was borne out - an opposition generally can not coast to victory on the scandals and mistakes of the governing party; it must offer something substantial.)

5) PPC didn't have much effect, and hopefully is dead.

6) I expect the Democrats to do their best to trash-talk the US economy into a recession over the next year to weaken the Republicans; if so, Canada will likely be affected; if so, the LPC+NDP get their wish from 2008: to run an economic recovery and apply progressive principles and policies for a change.


----------



## stellarpanther (22 Oct 2019)

I heard two people at work today say they had planned to vote CPC but once they got to the polls changed their mind as they didn't trust Scheer. Part of it was that they felt it would be a return to Harper policies.


----------



## OldSolduer (22 Oct 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I heard two people at work today say they had planned to vote CPC but once they got to the polls changed their mind as they didn't trust Scheer. Part of it was that they felt it would be a return to Harper policies.



Here in lies the problem: Who was JT running against? A memory of Stephen Harper and not the current leader of the Conservatives.

And in my estimation Harper was a good PM.


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Oct 2019)

[quote author=mariomike] 
2019 Canadian federal election

In the popular vote, polls show both parties virtually tied at about 32%.
https://www.macleans.ca/politics/2019-canadian-federal-election-live-updates-and-analysis-on-the-vote/
[/quote]
But if even 1 more person voted for Scheer than Trudeau he won the popular vote and should prime minister, right?


----------



## mariomike (22 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> But if even 1 more person voted for Scheer than Trudeau he won the popular vote and should prime minister, right?



I don't think Canadian Politics is the place to argue American politics. 

The point I made in American Politics was that 2.9 million votes represents a considerable margin.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (22 Oct 2019)

mariomike said:
			
		

> I don't think Canadian Politics is the place to argue American politics.
> 
> The point I made in American Politics was that 2.9 million votes represents a considerable margin.



Wow.....only when it suits my purpose


----------



## mariomike (22 Oct 2019)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Wow.....only when it suits my purpose



When it's almost 3 million votes ( 2016 ), and ten million ( 2018 ) it's pretty hard to ignore.



> 2019 Canadian federal election
> 
> In the popular vote, polls show both parties virtually tied at about 32%.
> https://www.macleans.ca/politics/2019-canadian-federal-election-live-updates-and-analysis-on-the-vote/



But, if you and Jarnhamar want to argue American Politics, perhaps American Politics might be a better forum.


----------



## QV (22 Oct 2019)

mariomike said:
			
		

> When it's almost 3 million votes ( 2016 ), and ten million ( 2018 ) it's pretty hard to ignore.
> 
> But, if you and Jarnhamar want to argue American Politics, perhaps American Politics might be a better forum.



.  

The CPC received about 250,000 more votes than the LPC... The US is about 10x bigger, so if you factor that number by 10, it is a similar margin.  So not insignificant, as you are alluding


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Oct 2019)

> The CPC received about 250,000 more votes than the LPC



Holy macaroni. 250'000 in a country of 37.5 million [where only 62%(?) voted].

I thought maybe they won by 1 or 2 votes.

Sure bet Trudeau is glad he went back on his promise about electoral reform  :nod:


----------



## The Bread Guy (22 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Sure bet Trudeau is glad he went back on his promise about electoral reform  :nod:


That was guaranteed once someone explained to him how much in decreases the odds of any party, including his own, ever getting a majority ever again.


----------



## AbdullahD (22 Oct 2019)

VinceW said:
			
		

> We tried and tried already the Reform party was created to bring Western values on the East and we were rejected they made fun of us and belittled us Harper made it for awhile but now any sign of the Conservatives that is influenced by the West is again rejected by the East we’ve done all we can do it’s time to move forward the West East political difference isn’t going to break ever.
> Western populism is now for independence and we’ll succeed.



Politics in Canada, Conservatives (Harper) governs for a term or two, then Liberals (Trudeau) govern for a term or two. It goes back and forth a lot. When the CPC are in liberals whine and cry, and vice versa.

Maybe you should take a look at the percentages of people who voted for which parties as a starting point. Then Assume conservatives are the only ones crying about separation, but even then only some conservatives are.

The CPC lost, because we presented an underwhelming leader to the nation. He was not able to mobilize people to vote for him, because he was to blasé. I think politics in Canada are not anywhere near as polarized as you think they are and that 90% of western Canadian's, do not care anywhere near as much as you appear to care. But if I am bored later maybe I'll look at the issue deeper, I just can't see traction for it, to me it just feels like pouting kids.

Abdullah


----------



## Altair (22 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Holy macaroni. 250'000 in a country of 37.5 million [where only 62%(?) voted].
> 
> I thought maybe they won by 1 or 2 votes.
> 
> Sure bet Trudeau is glad he went back on his promise about electoral reform  :nod:


I don't see how the CPC ever has a path to government again in a proportional representation scenario. 

I would imagine the CPC is the most thankful for this.


----------



## The Bread Guy (22 Oct 2019)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> What would happen, do you suppose, if the Conservatives nominated her for Speaker?


Gold, Jerry - GOLD!  May be one of the few things most folks would agree on, _especially_ with a secret ballot vote.

Stealing that for a meme, bud  ;D


----------



## mariomike (22 Oct 2019)

If we are going to argue about the Popular Vote margin in Canadian versus American elections,



> 2019 Canadian federal election
> 
> Popular vote margin
> 
> ...





> 2018 United States elections
> 
> Popular vote margin
> 
> ...


----------



## Colin Parkinson (22 Oct 2019)

Harper was a good leader and PM, but his PMO basically muzzled and denutted his MP, causing them not to respond well to issues in their own ridings. The legislation they wrote was sloppy and poor executed. Far to much control form a small element of the party.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (22 Oct 2019)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Here in lies the problem: Who was JT running against? A memory of Stephen Harper and not the current leader of the Conservatives.
> 
> And in my estimation Harper was a good PM.



Harper was the right PM at the right time.  The World was in severe financial turmoil and we needed a technocrat to steer the chip and keep the bank drafts safe.

Now things are all sunny, unemployment is at a record low, Canadians don't want a party pooper like Harper spoiling all the fun.


----------



## brihard (22 Oct 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> A couple points are coming to mind.
> 
> While the Americans would love our resources, I'm not sure they want to expand to include parts of Canada.  I also don't think the majority of people in those provinces would want to become American.
> 
> My other point is that Scheer is just plain negative and filled with hate when he talks.  I'm listening to Jason Kenney speak right now and Lisa Raitt earlier and they both sound like leaders when they talk.  Even Scheers concession speech was negative.  If the CPC ever want to have a chance they need to replace him fast.



Scheer, and specifically his hard social conservative streak, is a large part of why I flinched in the waning hours of the election and ended up not voting conservative. I want him gone. We deserve much better than either of our major parties have given us.


----------



## Stoker (22 Oct 2019)

I would say expect to have a leadership review sometime in 2020 with Rosa Ambrose or Peter Mackay becoming leader.


----------



## larry Strong (22 Oct 2019)

Somehow I don't see this happening.....

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/andrew-scheer-staying-on-leader-1.5330762

Shared as per.....



> Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer said today he has no plans to resign, and vowed instead to stay at the helm of his party and take another swing at defeating Prime Minister Justin Trudeau in the next election.
> 
> Speaking to reporters in Regina this morning, Scheer said he had hoped for better results but is happy with the "significant gains" the Conservatives achieved in this election.
> 
> ...





Cheers 
Larry


----------



## Good2Golf (22 Oct 2019)

VinceW said:
			
		

> We tried and tried already the Reform party was created to bring Western values on the East and we were rejected they made fun of us and belittled us Harper made it for awhile but now any sign of the Conservatives that is influenced by the West is again rejected by the East we’ve done all we can do it’s time to move forward the West East political difference isn’t going to break ever.
> Western populism is now for independence and we’ll succeed.



Reform (and Alliance) was seen by everyone else in non-Wild Rose country as extreme and close-minded right.

Harper reneging in his deal with Peter MacKay to share leadership in due course, once he comfortably had subsumed the PC support that gave home the full majority, was a dick move, that the rest of Canada didn’t forget. Try to romanticize “The West” bringing it’s warm, open-style heartiness and value based approach Eastward is to totally fail to understand why, for all the decent things that Harper did, like implement fiscal responsibility, the majority of people eschewed their mean-spirited, sanctimonious forcing of the fundamentalist elements of the CPC/Alliance/Reform (far removed from the good ‘ole PC center-to-right base) and took Harper for what he was...a guy who got it 75% right, but lost it with pushing for the last 25% that the citizenry wasn’t willing to give him. It was poorly played leading up to 2015, and the results proved it then, and the milquetoast Scheer proved it again in 2019...and this coming from pretty much a life PC supporter who lost a viable option from 2015 onwards. Scheer offered nothing for the disenfranchised middle of the road (overlapping Blue Liberals) ex-PC crowd. CPC is seen East of Weyburn, SK as Reform by another name. Far right, not having tolerance to represent slightly-left-of-centre to centre-right.

‘Conservatives’, for whatever those are these days, are doomed until a more moderate ‘fiscally conservative, socially progressive’ tone is championed. 

Scheer saying he’ll fight on demonstrates precisely why he was so ably capable of snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory in the election. It’s not at all that others don’t get the Western Prairies (AB/SK not w BC), but that the “All (including up to fringe right) or Nothing” brand of conservatism is old and falls flat in today’s Canada.  

:2c:

Regards
G2G


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Oct 2019)

Quite irritated Scheer decided to stay on.

Is there a way the party can force picking a new leader?


----------



## dapaterson (22 Oct 2019)

Smallest vote margins - a twitter thread by David Akin:

https://twitter.com/davidakin/status/1186800932824244224

Smallest margins of #elxn43 victory - raw votes: 
1 Yukon #LPC @LarryBagnell  72
2 Richmond Hill #LPC @MajidJowhari  112
3 Québec #LPC @jyduclos 215
4 Kitchener--Conestoga #LPC @votetimlouis 273
5 Hochelaga #LPC @SorayaMartinezF 319
6 Port Moody--Coquitlam Nelly Shin #CPC 333


Looking at them: Yukon and the two Ontario ridings would have been taken by the CPC if all PPC votes had gone their way.  The two Quebec ridings had the BQ in close second places.

And in BC, it was a close 3 way race, with the PC candidate edging her way ahead of the Liberal and NDP - all were around 30%.


----------



## FSTO (22 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Quite irritated Scheer decided to stay on.
> 
> Is there a way the party can force picking a new leader?



Yep. If enough party members want him out, he's gone.


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Oct 2019)

* SNC-Lavalin Stock Price Soars After Trudeau Win*
14% in a day.  rly:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffingtonpost.ca/amp/entry/snc-lavalin-stock-price_ca_5daf435ce4b0422422ccf6be/


----------



## dapaterson (23 Oct 2019)

It's not East / West; it's urban vs everything else.


https://twitter.com/j_mcelroy/status/1186806312241250304

There are 65 federal ridings in Canada with at least 2,500 people per square kilometre. 

The Conservative Party didn't win a single one.

There are 123 ridings in this country with between 150 and 2,500 people per square kilometre, from Etobicoke North to Durham.  

The Liberals won 64 of them, the Conservatives 41.

And there are 150 ridings in this country with fewer than 150 people per square kilometre (symmetry!).

The Conservatives won 82 seats, the Liberals 40.  

Tired: Canada's East vs. West divide. 
Wired: Canada Urban vs. Everything Else divide.


----------



## VinceW (23 Oct 2019)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Reform (and Alliance) was seen by everyone else in non-Wild Rose country as extreme and close-minded right.
> 
> Harper reneging in his deal with Peter MacKay to share leadership in due course, once he comfortably had subsumed the PC support that gave home the full majority, was a dick move, that the rest of Canada didn’t forget. Try to romanticize “The West” bringing it’s warm, open-style heartiness and value based approach Eastward is to totally fail to understand why, for all the decent things that Harper did, like implement fiscal responsibility, the majority of people eschewed their mean-spirited, sanctimonious forcing of the fundamentalist elements of the CPC/Alliance/Reform (far removed from the good ‘ole PC center-to-right base) and took Harper for what he was...a guy who got it 75% right, but lost it with pushing for the last 25% that the citizenry wasn’t willing to give him. It was poorly played leading up to 2015, and the results proved it then, and the milquetoast Scheer proved it again in 2019...and this coming from pretty much a life PC supporter who lost a viable option from 2015 onwards. Scheer offered nothing for the disenfranchised middle of the road (overlapping Blue Liberals) ex-PC crowd. CPC is seen East of Weyburn, SK as Reform by another name. Far right, not having tolerance to represent slightly-left-of-centre to centre-right.
> 
> ...



Reform was popular everywhere in Western Canada they weren’t exclusively popular in Alberta the East is going to change for us as much as we’re going to change for them time to move on when we’re seen as the problem and a nuisance to the Eastern part of the country we’re not going to take their abuse no more.


----------



## Altair (23 Oct 2019)

VinceW said:
			
		

> Reform was popular everywhere in Western Canada they weren’t exclusively popular in Alberta the East is going to change for us as much as we’re going to change for them time to move on when we’re seen as the problem and a nuisance to the Eastern part of the country we’re not going to take their abuse no more.


I find this amusing,  because in my opinion, it is rather misplaced. 

There are 5 parties in parliament. 

3 aggressively anti pipeline. 

1 so so on pipelines

1 aggressively pro pipeline. 

The 3 anti pipeline parties has 59 seats out of 338.

The two parties that want at least one more pipeline won 278 seats. 

The liberals wom the most seats despite having bought a pipeline. 

So its not the reason that the conservatives lost. It was the social reasons that urban canada shunned the CPC. Get a leader that doubles down on anti abortion, marches in gay pride parades,  embraces cannabis and Conservatives would start to make inroads in urban(eastern)  canada.


----------



## upandatom (23 Oct 2019)

Altair said:
			
		

> I find this amusing,  because in my opinion, it is rather misplaced.
> 
> There are 4 parties in parliament.
> 
> ...



NAIL on the head 
We need Fiscal responsibility, lack of corruption, and proven progressive thinking.


----------



## VinceW (23 Oct 2019)

Altair said:
			
		

> I find this amusing,  because in my opinion, it is rather misplaced.
> 
> There are 5 parties in parliament.
> 
> ...



The anti pipeline anti Alberta party is already in power if it wasn’t for bills C-48 and 69 we wouldn’t be going down this direction now.
Like I mentioned in another post we’re going to change ourselves as much as the East will change for us.
That’s how it is we’re not going to sell out and be afraid of who we are.


----------



## dapaterson (23 Oct 2019)

Typical Liberal bias at the CBC...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/neil-macdonald-trudeau-opinion-1.5331427

Listen to what they say about Justin Trudeau: "But what really soured former supporters, I'd submit, was his cynical, patronizing, condescending, arrogant, insulting belief that voters don't deserve a straight answer – that preachy, gauzy, meaningless aphorisms will suffice."


----------



## Brad Sallows (23 Oct 2019)

>Like I mentioned in another post we’re ...

For very small values of "we".


----------



## Halifax Tar (23 Oct 2019)

Not withstanding the popular vote between the Cons and Libs.  The disparity between the NDP, Greens and Bloc is interesting.  

7.7% of country (Bloc) gained 32 seats, while 15.9% received 24 (NDP) and 6.5% received 3 (Greens).


----------



## CountDC (23 Oct 2019)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Here in lies the problem: Who was JT running against? A memory of Stephen Harper and not the current leader of the Conservatives.
> 
> And in my estimation Harper was a good PM.



agree fully and unfortunately the conservatives/Scheer did nothing really to change it.

The best I hoped for was a Conservative minority and NDP holding the candle to them.  I don't see Trudeau propped up by NDP as a good thing.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (23 Oct 2019)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Not withstanding the popular vote between the Cons and Libs.  The disparity between the NDP, Greens and Bloc is interesting.
> 
> 7.7% of country (Bloc) gained 32 seats, while 15.9% received 24 (NDP) and 6.5% received 3 (Greens).



Popular vote is the most useless statistic metric in Canada.  Why?  Because we have 338 separate elections as opposed to one election.  The Bloc received 7.7% of the vote but that 7.7% was concentrated entirely in one Province.  The Bloc only ran 78 candidates while the Green's ran 338.  Taking this in to consideration, The Bloc's "Vote Efficiency" is basically on par with the Liberals in Quebec and is better than the Conservatives.

A more useful metric would be % of popular vote broken down by region.  I would break it down like this:  

British Columbia - Popular Vote
Prairies (Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba) - Popular Vote
Ontario - Popular Vote
Quebec - Popular Vote
Atlantic/North - Popular Vote

You could also break it down by % of popular vote based on population density which would also be useful.

% popular vote High Pop Density
% Popular vote Medium Pop Density
% Pop vote Low Pop Density

This map does a pretty good job of showing the issues:






It shows the riding victors but also uses a colour coding system to identify % of popular vote in each individual riding.

The Conservatives got 34% of their popular vote, but you can see from this diagram that if you remove their 60%+ "popular vote" in the Rural Prairies, you can see that the Conservatives did very poorly in the other Regions.

The NDP, Greens, Bloc Quebecois are for all intents and purposes Regional/Special Interest Parties.  The Conservatives judging by the election result, are also a Regional/Rural Party.  None of these parties enjoy widespread support across all regions like the Liberals do.

It would be nice to see some actual logical statistical analysis in our electoral system but the Media and General Public seem very oblivious to it all.


----------



## Halifax Tar (23 Oct 2019)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Popular vote is the most useless statistic metric in Canada.  Why?  Because we have 338 separate elections as opposed to one election.  The Bloc received 7.7% of the vote but that 7.7% was concentrated entirely in one Province.  The Bloc only ran 78 candidates while the Green's ran 338.  Taking this in to consideration, The Bloc's "Vote Efficiency" is basically on par with the Liberals in Quebec and is better than the Conservatives.
> 
> A more useful metric would be % of popular vote broken down by region.  I would break it down like this:
> 
> ...



Thanks tips.  We are all well aware that popular vote means diddley squat.  At this point it should be a sticky on the homepage. 

Having said that when we see disparity like that we as a nation have to come to the conclusion that something is wrong with our system.  Thats not slight margins.  Thats big margins. 

If I was the NDP, and thank the lord I am not sir, I would only offer support to Liberal platforms in exchange for drastic electoral reform.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (23 Oct 2019)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Thanks tips.  We are all well aware that popular vote means diddley squat.  At this point it should be a sticky on the homepage.
> 
> Having said that when we see disparity like that we as a nation have to come to the conclusion that something is wrong with our system.  Thats not slight margins.  Thats big margins.



So why bring it up then? Or mention that it is interesting?  I don't think it's interesting at all and it literally has zero bearing on the election.

There is nothing wrong with our Electoral System, in fact, it is working exactly how it has been designed to work AKA "keep a loose Confederation of Independent States, with fundamentally different values, together."  

If anything, the Bloc Quebecois are a great example of how a small Regional Party can use the system we have to their advantage to push their agenda forward and derive maximum benefit.  They've even once formed the official opposition despite running candidates in ONE PROVINCE!  

The Green Party and NDP both waste boatloads of money, manpower & resources trying to campaign nationally when they have no real National support.  Real Green Party support is concentrated on Vancouver Island and in small cantons in the Maritimes.  I would make the argument that campaigning nationally wastes very precious dollars & resources for the Green Party.

If war is politics by other means, why not inverse that and say politics is war by other means?  With this in mind, apply military principles to the conduct of a political campaign, namely:


Selection and maintenance of the aim; 
maintenance of morale; 
offensive action; 
surprise; 
security; 
concentration of force; 
economy of effort; 
flexibility; 
co-operation; and 
administration. 

I've read that the NDP Electoral Machine is pretty well known for being a disorganized bag of hammers and I can't imagine the Green Party being much better, perhaps they need to fix that and work on applying some of these principles to make the system work for them and not the other way around?

Or they can continue to whinge about how unfair everything is and then they finally squeeze a few extra seats out of an "Improved" Proportional Representation system (which would do them no good because they still don't have widespread support and would still be a disorganized bags of hammers).  On the flip side, Mad Max would surely love Proportional Representation because he would also get some love in the HoC.  Just what we need, extremists from all ends coming to start their own political movements grabbing hold of that 1 or 2% of the vote they would be able to gather up.  

On the bright side, I wouldn't need to watch Youtube anymore to get my daily dose of Antifa vs Proud Boys, I could merely flip on CPAC!


----------



## dapaterson (23 Oct 2019)

My main complaint with most electoral maps of Canada is that they show physical, not human, geography.  Rocks and trees don't vote, people do; scaling based on population gives a very different visual.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (23 Oct 2019)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> My main complaint with most electoral maps of Canada is that they show physical, not human, geography.  Rocks and trees don't vote, people do; scaling based on population gives a very different visual.



Hence my point on % of vote by population densities. National Popular Vote is the political equivalent of +/- in hockey, it's a useless statistic.


----------



## garb811 (23 Oct 2019)

In light of the PM's announcement he would not be seeking to form a coalition government post election, the Liberal Minority Government 2019 - ?? thread has been established for discussions related to the new minority Liberal Government.


----------



## PuckChaser (23 Oct 2019)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Hence my point on % of vote by population densities. National Popular Vote is the political equivalent of +/- in hockey, it's a useless statistic.



+/- in hockey isn't useless, unless its used in isolation. Much like national popular vote, its an indicator you have to combine it with other metrics to make it useful in finding trends.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (23 Oct 2019)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> +/- in hockey isn't useless, unless its used in isolation. Much like national popular vote, its an indicator you have to combine it with other metrics to make it useful in finding trends.



Which is exactly why +/- is mostly useless because almost no one ever combines it with more in depth statistical analysis taking in to account other factors like Shot %, Time on Ice, etc.  

Alexander Ovechkin had the worst +/- in the League in 2014, I don't think anyone says Alexander Ovechkin is a bad hockey player or they wouldn't want Alexander Ovechkin on their team because of his poor +/-.

It's the same with the continuous trumpeting of "Popular Vote" in our media and by certain political parties/pundits.  It's a useless statistic when framed in isolation, which 99.9% of the time, it is.


----------



## Halifax Tar (23 Oct 2019)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> So why bring it up then? Or mention that it is interesting?  I don't think it's interesting at all and it literally has zero bearing on the election.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with our Electoral System, in fact, it is working exactly how it has been designed to work AKA "keep a loose Confederation of Independent States, with fundamentally different values, together."
> 
> ...



We have fundamentally different opinions on how well our electoral systems is working and whether or not is being taken advantage of by region parties, aka the Bloc.

Either way when 7.7% of the vote gets that much representation and 15.9% get so little, something needs to change.  

Just for transparency I am a card carrying Conservative who sees this election as a minor victory for us.  But I believe in country before party allegiance and the country needs better representation.


----------



## QV (23 Oct 2019)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Which is exactly why +/- is mostly useless because almost no one ever combines it with more in depth statistical analysis taking in to account other factors like Shot %, Time on Ice, etc.
> 
> Alexander Ovechkin had the worst +/- in the League in 2014, I don't think anyone says Alexander Ovechkin is a bad hockey player or they wouldn't want Alexander Ovechkin on their team because of his poor +/-.
> 
> It's the same with the continuous trumpeting of "Popular Vote" in our media and by certain political parties/pundits.  It's a useless statistic when framed in isolation, which 99.9% of the time, it is.



I think you are over complicating what the popular vote means, and +/- in hockey is a poor analogy, imo.  The raw vote is a useful metric in its isolation, it tells you more people voted for the CPC than the LCP for example.  Granted that's not how we elect our representatives, but it gives a clearer picture on a broader sentiment.  Seat count skews that.   

The biggest problem we have with our system is unequal representation.  When the Atlantic region has the same number of seats as Prairie region with only half the population - we have a big problem.  And it's not just Atlantic.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (23 Oct 2019)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> ‘Conservatives’, for whatever those are these days, are doomed until a more moderate ‘fiscally conservative, socially progressive’ tone is championed.
> 
> G2G



Makes you miss the Martin (and Chretien) Liberals.....


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (23 Oct 2019)

QV said:
			
		

> I think you are over complicating what the popular vote means, and +/- in hockey is a poor analogy, imo.  The raw vote is a useful metric in its isolation, it tells you more people voted for the CPC than the LCP for example.  Granted that's not how we elect our representatives, but it gives a clearer picture on a broader sentiment.  Seat count skews that.
> 
> The biggest problem we have with our system is unequal representation.  When the Atlantic region has the same number of seats as Prairie region with only half the population - we have a big problem.  And it's not just Atlantic.



I am really not overcomplicating anything.  I am merely pointing out the Popular Vote is a useless metric in a Nation as geographically large as Canada because it is used as a way to pretend that certain political parties have national appeal when the reality is they don't.  And besides the Big 2, none of the other parties have any sort of widespread appeal outside of very small areas.  Our political system is an acknowledgement that we are a Country of Regions with vastly different values and interests.  The party at the Federal level that will be most successful is the party that achieves broadest consensus across groups of people with radically different values.  The Liberals have been the Party that has most consistently done that.

Our political system is a strength, not a weakness.  It protects us from extremists and fringe groups having outsized voices.  When I look at Politicians like Elizabeth May and Maxime Bernier, I see individuals that would probably be better suited to Municipal and Provincial Politics.  They are the literal embodiment of "All Politics is Local" and are totally out of their depth at the Federal level.  Try and picture either one of them conducting high level statecraft with other World Leaders and it is absolutely laughable.



			
				PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Makes you miss the Martin (and Chretien) Liberals.....



Paul Martin was a very good Finance Minister and had an unfortunate time as Prime Minister.  I feel like we really didn't get the best he had to offer, due to events that were largely not his doing.


----------



## Brad Sallows (23 Oct 2019)

>Either way when 7.7% of the vote gets that much representation and 15.9% get so little, something needs to change.  

FFS.  Can we please bury the "Bloc got so many seats for so little national share of popular vote blah blah blah" bullshit.  The only meaningful way to measure a party's vote efficiency is to measure its vote count _*where it runs candidates*_.

The NDP's problem isn't that it doesn't get enough seats for the vote share it manages to capture; the NDP's problem is that it doesn't provide a philosophy of governance appealing to more than 1/6th to 1/5th of Canadians AND that most of the party establishment is too chickenshit to fight the Liberals ruthlessly enough to become the left-side alternative to the Conservatives.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (23 Oct 2019)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >Either way when 7.7% of the vote gets that much representation and 15.9% get so little, something needs to change.
> 
> FFS.  Can we please bury the "Bloc got so many seats for so little national share of popular vote blah blah blah" bullshit.  The only meaningful way to measure a party's vote efficiency is to measure its vote count _*where it runs candidates*_.
> 
> The NDP's problem isn't that it doesn't get enough seats for the vote share it manages to capture; the NDP's problem is that it doesn't provide a philosophy of governance appealing to more than 1/6th to 1/5th of Canadians AND that most of the party establishment is too chickenshit to fight the Liberals ruthlessly enough to become the left-side alternative to the Conservatives.



Exactly what I said above.  That 1/5 to 1/6 is also densely concentrated in a very small geographic area.  Again, they have no National appeal.

The Bloc are a very clever solution to give Quebec an outsized voice in the HoC.  It's also using the FPTP system to its maximum advantage. If only other parts of Canada were as organized and creative as Quebecers are. The West is finally starting to get how to play the game with #Wexit.


----------



## stellarpanther (23 Oct 2019)

I know there is a lot of analyses going on as to why the CPC lost and some of it may be true however, I think pure and simlple that they were too negative and a lot of people don't like that.  My dad told me earlier today that him and 2 of my uncles voted independent for the first time ever even though they have all been voting Conservative most of their lives but this time just couldn't bring themselves to vote CPC because they couldn't stand how negative they were.  He also told me that they're even more comfortable after listening to Scheer speak after losing.  In my dad's riding the Liberals only won by a small margin.


----------



## Furniture (23 Oct 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I know there is a lot of analyses going on as to why the CPC lost and some of it may be true however, I think pure and simlple that they were too negative and a lot of people don't like that.  My dad told me earlier today that him and 2 of my uncles voted independent for the first time ever even though they have all been voting Conservative most of their lives but this time just couldn't bring themselves to vote CPC because they couldn't stand how negative they were.  He also told me that they're even more comfortable after listening to Scheer speak after losing.  In my dad's riding the Liberals only won by a small margin.



This is one of the three following scenarios.

1) This is a made up story.

2) Your father and his brothers paid no attention to anything the LPC did that was negative, because they are "dyed in the wool" Liberals and ignored that the LPC went negative prior to the writ being dropped. 

3) Your father and his brothers were in comas throughout the entire campaign.


----------



## Jarnhamar (24 Oct 2019)

Furniture said:
			
		

> This is one of the three following scenarios.
> 
> 1) This is a made up story.



Yea I kinda got that impression too. 




> I * heard two people at work today say they had planned to vote CPC but* once they got to the polls changed their mind as they didn't trust Scheer.





> My other point is that Scheer is * just plain negative * and filled with hate when he talks.





> I think pure and simlple that they* were too negative * and a lot of people don't like that.  My dad told me earlier today that * him and 2 of my uncles* voted independent for the first time ever even though they have all been * voting Conservative most of their lives but* this time just couldn't bring themselves to vote CPC because they couldn't stand * how negative* they were.




 :


----------



## ballz (24 Oct 2019)

I'm pretty sure stellarpanther is the Master Troll and is just having a laugh at all of our expense.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (24 Oct 2019)

So one thing that I find interesting about the push for proportional representation.  Does the Green Party or NDP actually aspire to govern?  Or do they merely wish to remain "special interest" parties.  It's fairly clear that while proportional representation would give both a bigger voice than they presently have, it's tough to imagine them ever actually forming a Government in those conditions. The NDP were very close a few years ago but as was already said, they are too chickenshit to really challenge the Liberals. 

I also feel that the Party that would benefit the least from such a system would be the Liberal Party of Canada.  In a proportional representation system, I could see that political party splintering and the Conservatives growing a lot stronger.  People crave stability, it's only natural, and the party that offers the most stability is the Conservative Party of Canada.


----------



## PuckChaser (24 Oct 2019)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> I also feel that the Party that would benefit the least from such a system would be the Liberal Party of Canada.  In a proportional representation system, I could see that political party splintering and the Conservatives growing a lot stronger.  People crave stability, it's only natural, and the party that offers the most stability is the Conservative Party of Canada.



Liberals are going to steer well clear of electoral reform now as FPTP is the reason they're still in power even if that power is held on by a thread.

Only thing that a change to PR or Ranked Ballots does is force us into perpetual minority governments.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (24 Oct 2019)

ballz said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure stellarpanther is the Master Troll and is just having a laugh at all of our expense.



It is clear that the poster is speaking of his opinion, and that of others.  Having an opinion different than yours does not a troll make.   The negative response from other posters does however seem to confirm his opinion of conservatives....


----------



## mariomike (24 Oct 2019)

ballz said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure stellarpanther is the Master Troll and is just having a laugh at all of our expense.





			
				PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Having an opinion different than yours does not a troll make.



For reference, 



			
				Mike Bobbitt said:
			
		

> *Trolling*: Making a deliberately offensive or provocative post, where the primary aim is upsetting someone or eliciting an emotional response from them.


----------



## Remius (24 Oct 2019)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> It is clear that the poster is speaking of his opinion, and that of others.  Having an opinion different than yours does not a troll make.   The negative response from other posters does however seem to confirm his opinion of conservatives....



Concur.  I didn’t see any trolling.  The anecdotes are actually similar to some of mine.  Some people were conflicted and I fail to see how anyone can not understand why some voters chose to vote the way they did.  Some protest voted other voted for the best riding rep in their opinion.  My father in his riding voted CPC.  Not because he likes them, quite the opposite but he really likes the MP.  

Plenty of people I work with in the PS chose not to vote CPC at the 11th hour because  of their platform plan for the PS.  Reading between the lines it was obviously DRAP 2.0.  This from the group of people who brought us Phoenix, SSC and DRAP 1.0. 

Stellar panther was just imparting his/her experience.  If people don’t like that then maybe they should listen a bit more and maybe they can win the next time.


----------



## CountDC (24 Oct 2019)

I don't see a reason to doubt his posts.  I didn't decide until I was looking down at the ballot with pencil in hand who to vote for even though I had expected to vote conservative.  When the time came though, I thought about it and just couldn't cast that vote so went instead with plan b.  It just didn't feel right when I held the pencil over the conservative spot.


----------



## Jarnhamar (24 Oct 2019)

[quote author=Remius] .  If people don’t like that then maybe they should listen a bit more and maybe they can win the next time.
[/quote]

Paraphrasing- if Conservatives were better listeners they would have won the election?


----------



## Jarnhamar (24 Oct 2019)

CountDC said:
			
		

> I don't see a reason to doubt his posts.  I



I find the statement Scheer is filled with hate when he talks to be overly dramatic and I'd say typical "Conservatives = hate speech" mantra that was constantly pushed in the media and by certain politicians and political entities.

I AM starting to believe a democratic nation gets the leader they deserve.


----------



## Altair (24 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Paraphrasing- if Conservatives were better listeners they would have won the election?


If the Conservatives had a real climate plan they probably win the election.


----------



## Brad Sallows (24 Oct 2019)

Conservatives do have a real climate plan; most people don't recognize it.  Conservatives tend to be the most pro-prosperity group.  Generally, the more prosperous a society, the lower its birth rate and the more it is technologically capable, fiscally capable, and desirous of mitigating environmental damage.  A key driver of prosperity is abundant and inexpensive energy.

If Greens got everything they say they want right now, I can easily predict that people will fall back on the means of earlier times to get by (heating, lighting, transportation, etc).


----------



## Remius (24 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Paraphrasing- if Conservatives were better listeners they would have won the election?



Possibly.  Climate action is one thing they pretty much dismissed.  Fair enough. But they need something, anything than what they have.  But it seems  they were banking on people’s frustration with Trudeau instead of actually offering something else.  Instead they resorted to their old tactics and people got tired of it.  Fear mongering and inventing things out of thin air that people were not buying into. 

Plus avoiding issues and not getting a grip on the attacks coming their way.  

Gay marriage didn’t have to be an issue.  But Scheer’s response kept that alive.   People didn’t want to hear his canned response designed to not anger is social conservative base.  They wanted an honest answer but when it finally came after the debate it was too late.


----------



## Altair (24 Oct 2019)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Conservatives do have a real climate plan; most people don't recognize it.  Conservatives tend to be the most pro-prosperity group.  Generally, the more prosperous a society, the lower its birth rate and the more it is technologically capable, fiscally capable, and desirous of mitigating environmental damage.  A key driver of prosperity is abundant and inexpensive energy.
> 
> If Greens got everything they say they want right now, I can easily predict that people will fall back on the means of earlier times to get by (heating, lighting, transportation, etc).


The experts who looked at the CPC climate plan said emissions would rise. 

So when climate change was one of the top ballot box questions,  not having a climate plan that would result in a rise in emissions is a great way to set a ceiling on potential support.


----------



## Jarnhamar (24 Oct 2019)

Altair said:
			
		

> If the Conservatives had a real climate plan they probably win the election.



A climate plan would have convinced Canada Ontario Toronto to vote conservative and win a majority? 



			
				Remius said:
			
		

> Possibly.  Climate action is one thing they pretty much dismissed.  Fair enough. But they need something, anything than what they have.  But it seems  they were banking on people’s frustration with Trudeau instead of actually offering something else.  Instead they resorted to their old tactics and people got tired of it.  Fear mongering and inventing things out of thin air that people were not buying into.



See above. I think no matter what the Conservatives said, promised or did, they weren't going to shake the Liberal hold on empire Toronto. 



> Gay marriage didn’t have to be an issue.  But Scheer’s response kept that alive.


I was actually impressed with his stance on gay marriage and abortion. More specifically I like that he had the backbone to take an unpopular stance on it because that's what he believed in, even though I disagree with his views 100%. 

He clearly said he wouldn't reopen the abortion debate and all the fears about Conservatives banning gay marriage was just silly. It even even came up the 8 years Harper was in office, why would Scheer try. 

I suppose Scheer might have got some votes of he joined the pride parade and waved around a rainbow flag. 

But honestly, would he really have? 
Pride parade who bans police and soldiers from marching with them? Pride that seems like it caters to special interest groups more than anything? 

Pride would have welcomed him with open arms? I doubt it. I bet they'd make a big stink about it and try to publically shame him by protesting the parade or boycotting it. 

Am I wrong?



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4699694
2018
Edmonton police, RCMP, military banned from future Pride parades


----------



## Altair (24 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> A climate plan would have convinced Canada Ontario Toronto to vote conservative and win a majority?


 Majority?  No. No one was going to with the bloc surging





> See above. I think no matter what the Conservatives said, promised or did, they weren't going to shake the Liberal hold on empire Toronto.


 Looking past Toronto,  the CPC did poorly across the board. Toronto has 25 seats,  Ontario has 121 seats. Fixation on Toronto masks the larger issue. 





> I was actually impressed with his stance on gay marriage and abortion. More specifically I like that he had the backbone to take an unpopular stance on it because that's what he believed in, even though I disagree with his views 100%.


 It was his non answer to the question that hurt him. He could have apologized for his speech in 2004-5 and it would have ended there. He didn't. He could have said he is personally anti abortion but won't reopen the issue. He didnt. Scheer has the exact same stance on abortion as trudeau,  he just didn't articulate it. 





> He clearly said he wouldn't reopen the abortion debate and all the fears about Conservatives banning gay marriage was just silly. It even even came up the 8 years Harper was in office, why would Scheer try.
> 
> I suppose Scheer might have got some votes of he joined the pride parade and waved around a rainbow flag.
> 
> ...


  Doug Ford marched in a more conservative riding pride parade that welcomed him. Scheer didn't even do that. 





> Pride would have welcomed him with open arms? I doubt it. I bet they'd make a big stink about it and try to publically shame him by protesting the parade or boycotting it.
> 
> Am I wrong?
> 
> ...


Again,  nobody is asking Scheer to go get booed in downtown toronto. But edmonton Pride,  Regina pride, calgary pride,  red deer pride,  somewhere, there was a pride parade in a place more friendly to a conservative leader,  and he still chose not to do it. 

The question becomes why?  Is he so opposed to gay marriage that he cannot be seen to do the bare minimum and march with them?  That does make a lot of people,  especially in urban ridings,  uncomfortable. Doug Ford did it,  not a word was mentioned afterwards,  issue dead. Scheer didn't and it dogged him. So yes,  I think it would have made a difference.


----------



## mariomike (24 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I think no matter what the Conservatives said, promised or did, they weren't going to shake the Liberal hold on empire Toronto.



Empire? Hardly. Not yet, and likely never will be. 

The GTA ( Toronto, Halton, Peel, York and Durham aka the 416 / 905 ) is under the control of Queen's Park.

The population of the GTA is greater than British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Labrador, Nova Scotia, PEI.

So, all teams must look at the GTA as a vote rich environment.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (24 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Paraphrasing- if Conservatives were better listeners they would have won the election?



The way I see it the problem wasn't that the CPC weren't better listeners, but lousy talkers (e.g Inability to get their message across). 




			
				Altair said:
			
		

> If the Conservatives had a real climate plan they probably win the election.



If climate change was such a big issue for Canadians the NDP or Green would be in charge. Instead the Greens won one extra seat (from two to three) and the NDP lost 15.


----------



## Jarnhamar (24 Oct 2019)

Altair said:
			
		

> Majority?  No. No one was going to with the bloc surging


So a climate plan would have caused Quebec to vote 30 seats for the Conservatives instead of the bloc? 



> Looking past Toronto,  the CPC did poorly across the board. Toronto has 25 seats,  Ontario has 121 seats. Fixation on Toronto masks the larger issue




Liberals kept 25 of Toronto's seats. They also kept 24 of 29 seats just outside of the core which is identical to where they were on election night in 2015.
So Toronto didn't budge in 4 years. A worthy fortress I'd say. 



> It was his non answer to the question that hurt him. He could have apologized for his speech in 2004-5 and it would have ended there.


Have you ever seen what happens to celebrities who try to apologise to various offended groups? Maybe it's different.  It's hilarious to see though. Like sharks. 



> He could have said he is personally anti abortion but won't reopen the issue.


I thought that's exactly what he did. 



> Doug Ford marched in a more conservative riding pride parade that welcomed him.



And he faced criticism for refusing to march in the Toronto pride parade due to them banning police and military. 



> Scheer didn't even do that. Again,  nobody is asking Scheer to go get booed in downtown toronto.


So you want him to go against the tennents of his religion just to placate a group of Canadians?  



> But edmonton Pride,  Regina pride, calgary pride,  red deer pride,  somewhere, there was a pride parade in a place more friendly to a conservative leader,  and he still chose not to do it.


Edmonton pride that banned RCMP, police and military-even out of uniform? I wouldn't consider that friendly. 

Thats besides the point. It was a religious decision for him. Why are we pressured to respect some religious rules but not others? 



> The question becomes why?  Is he so opposed to gay marriage that he cannot be seen to do the bare minimum and march with them?


Integrity. It would be fake of him to do it.  The same way its fake for all those police officer hopefuls to volunteer at local agencies for the sake of crossing off the volunteer check in the box. They're not doing it because they enjoy volunteering. 




> Doug Ford did it,  not a word was mentioned afterwards,  issue dead.


Incorrect. Marching in the York parade wasn't good enough. He was criticized for not marching in the Toronto parade. 
And I bet if he did try then knowing the Toronto pride mentality, like Edmonton, they would have made a big deal about it.


----------



## The Bread Guy (24 Oct 2019)

Aaaaand for a pro-Russian site's take on the results (linked to a text summary site so we don't HAVE to link to whoever is behind the original piece) ...


> *Freeland’s Victory, Canada 2020 and the New Malthusian Takeover of Canada*
> Matthew Ehret, fort-russ.com, October 23, 2019
> 
> With the election victory of the Liberal Government of Justin Trudeau and Chrystia Freeland on October 21st, Canada’s political landscape has found itself again under the continued clutches of a Green technocratic dictatorship which took control of the Liberal Party 54 years ago with the British-run ouster of the “continentalist” liberals of C.D. Howe and Prime Minister St. Laurent during the interim period of 1957-1963. This story was told in my previous report “Forgotten Battles Against the Deep State part one”.
> ...


More @ link

These guys also share the news about _"How the Deep State Overthrew the Last Nationalist Government of Canada… in 1963!"_. (also links to outline.com instead of original site)


----------



## stellarpanther (24 Oct 2019)

ballz said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure stellarpanther is the Master Troll and is just having a laugh at all of our expense.



Ok if you say so.  Basically some on here don't want to admit that a lot of people can't stand the negativity of Scheer and if the people don't like it and choose to vote for someone else because of it that means they don't follow the election.  Is there a problem with not wanting our elections to turn in the circus they have in the U.S. where it's constant insults and mudslinging?

I'm not a person who automatically votes for one particular party.  I decide based on what I think of the issues.  I don't want the new pipeline built, the CPC have no climate plan except to keep on polluting.  I also can't stand that Scheer can't answer one simple question on anything without bashing Trudeau or another party.  I also like the Liberal policy for VAC.  The are plenty of other reasons but those are the big ones for me.


Finally, I am not trolling or getting a laugh at anyone on here although I do find some of the comments since my last post a bit amusing and pathetic at the same time.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (25 Oct 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Ok if you say so.  Basically some on here don't want to admit that a lot of people can't stand the negativity of Scheer and if the people don't like it and choose to vote for someone else because of it that means they don't follow the election.  Is there a problem with not wanting our elections to turn in the circus they have in the U.S. where it's constant insults and mudslinging?
> 
> I'm not a person who automatically votes for one particular party.  I decide based on what I think of the issues.  I don't want the new pipeline built, the CPC have no climate plan except to keep on polluting.  I also can't stand that Scheer can't answer one simple question on anything without bashing Trudeau or another party.  I also like the Liberal policy for VAC.  The are plenty of other reasons but those are the big ones for me.
> 
> ...



I personally hated watching Scheer at the debates. When his opening lead directly into a attack on Trudeau, I was honestly disgusted. It was pathetic, and a clear showing that he isn't ready to be a prime minister (none of the others really preformed at the level I would expect them to be at either). He would have had plenty of opportunities to shoot jabs later in the night when it was more relevant, but instead immediately did so off the back when it wasn't appropriate or justified. Good luck selling the Conservative brand, when all you have to do is show a 30 second clip on the opening debate and literally pretty much anyone but a diehard Conservative wouldn't be impressed. Anyone on the fence immediately knows where they want to stand when they see stuff like that.


----------



## FJAG (25 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> ...
> So you want him to go against the tennents of his religion just to placate a group of Canadians?
> ...



No I don't but therein lies the problem. Scheer right now is saying that he believes it's possible to hold socially conservative views and be the prime minister.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/scheer-socially-conservative-1.5334891

Unfortunately I think that a large part of the electorate, myself included, doesn't believe that is possible. Anecdotally speaking two members of my family who were life long conservatives voted otherwise simply because they no longer trust the party on that issue. Note that it's not just him but the whole party that they don't trust. Locally my CPC candidate in part won the nomination for her largely rural riding by putting her Christian values and pro life stance out front and, like our riding, many solid CPC ridings associations now have a vocal majority that are looking for like minded candidates.  Remember that back in 2018 at the CPC's National Policy Convention the delegates only narrowly defeated a motion that would have repealed Article 65 of the CPC policy handbook (i.e. the CPC will not support any legislation to regulate abortion). Scheer's position has been that while pro-life, his government wouldn't bring any legislation forward to regulate abortion although he wouldn't oppose any private member's bill to do so. That's worrisome to people who support the country's status quo on this subject.

The CPC and it's leadership are seen by many as having a hidden agenda on abortion and gay marriage. The CPC is seen as a Trojan Horse of fiscal conservatism filled with social conservatives ready to pounce if again given power. Quite frankly as a life long conservative I have the same concerns although this time I was able to choke it down and take Scheer at his word. Many conservatives who, like me, are more centrists and socially liberal, and many independent centrists have been watching what has been going on with the Republican Party down south and no longer which to take the risk with the CPC.

I think that the CPC has a hard row to hoe in the future. A large part of it's membership is socially conservative and feeling it's oats. I read one article that said over 70 CPC candidates running in this election were openly pro-lifers. That shows how deeply the social conservative wing of the party is ingrained at the riding level. As this wing grows, more fiscal conservatives will jump ship by simply staying home. Personally I'm staying with the party to see what I can do from the inside but, quite frankly, I'm pessimistic about any change. IMHO, social conservatives care more about their narrow causes than the overarching need for a fiscally conservative government and they have nowhere else to go to push their agenda. They are going to be with the CPC for a long haul and, unfortunately, I think they will win out in the end.

 :worms:


----------



## Altair (25 Oct 2019)

FJAG said:
			
		

> No I don't but therein lies the problem. Scheer right now is saying that he believes it's possible to hold socially conservative views and be the prime minister.
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/scheer-socially-conservative-1.5334891
> 
> ...


I was hoping the PPC would be the fiscally conservative party with socially liberal views.

It was a shame that it turned into the anti immigration, anti foreigner fringe party it did, glad it fizzled out the way it did.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (25 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Paraphrasing- if Conservatives were better listeners they would have won the election?



I find both the hardcore supporters of the Libs and the CPC very unwillingly to listen to anything that does not fit their views, they live within their own ecosystem.


----------



## Brad Sallows (25 Oct 2019)

And other parties have no hidden agendas or narrow causes that they're going to pounce on?

A couple of things I've learned over decades: the "so-con" hidden agenda is forever the preoccupation/bogeyman of Chicken Littles, but somehow the dial never moves backward - the threat is conceived, but never realized.  Meanwhile, we do continue to experience weak fiscal management, a constant expansion of "security" with a commensurate contraction of "liberty", and a country in which the well-being of people occupied with governing and public services creeps further ahead of the median every year.

The "progressive" agenda is, empirically, more of a threat than the "conservative" one.

The prudent solution to the "so-con" agenda is for the "mod-cons" to throw in with the conservatives and bend the trajectory, not to throw in with the "not-cons" or disengage entirely.  When you say "Oh, the old PCs have been purged" and walk away, you make your criticism a little bit more true.

What is this horseshit about not being able to hold conservative views and be PM?  What is Justin Trudeau's personal view on abortion?


----------



## Remius (25 Oct 2019)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> What is this horseshit about not being able to hold conservative views and be PM?  What is Justin Trudeau's personal view on abortion?



I think you can.  But you have to demonstrate that you will support and defend something that you may not want to believe in.  That is the current narrative with Scheer, whether it is true or not.  

Trudeau may have shown that his personal views don't impact his job as PM, Scheer it would seem has not.


----------



## Jarnhamar (25 Oct 2019)

[quote author=FJAG] 

Unfortunately I think that a large part of the electorate, myself included, doesn't believe that is possible. [/QUOTE] 


Do you think a practicing Muslim would be able to be prime minister?


----------



## Altair (25 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Do you think a practicing Muslim would be able to be prime minister?


I think anyone,  of any creed,  could be prime minister if they show up,  and very early on say that any anti gay marriage,  anti abortion candidates who would bring it up or vote in that manner can see themselves out would get the benefit of the doubt.


----------



## Remius (25 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Do you think a practicing Muslim would be able to be prime minister?



if Mayor Nenshi can be elected as Mayor of Calgary then I think it is possible.   

But if he mixes politics and his personal faith, less so.


----------



## FJAG (25 Oct 2019)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> ...
> What is this horseshit about not being able to hold conservative views and be PM?  What is Justin Trudeau's personal view on abortion?



My point isn't the individual. It's the social conservative movement in the party as a whole that's the issue. Any one person is welcome to their own beliefs but when a whole sector in the party is moving that way then the average Canadian has a lack of trust. As I said before; just look south of the border if you want to see what a social conservative movement can do. That scares the hell out of me personally and a lot of other "progressive" conservatives.

 :cheers:


----------



## Brad Sallows (25 Oct 2019)

I'm jaded.  People have been having anxiety attacks about "so-cons" since Reagan was supposed to initiate nuclear war to bring on Armageddon on behalf of the televangelists.  The people who sincerely think a "handmaid's tale" is imminent are one of the current symptoms of the (mental) disease.


----------



## FJAG (25 Oct 2019)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> I'm jaded.  People have been having anxiety attacks about "so-cons" since Reagan was supposed to initiate nuclear war to bring on Armageddon on behalf of the televangelists.  The people who sincerely think a "handmaid's tale" is imminent are one of the current symptoms of the (mental) disease.



Brad. You cite two extremist views neither of which is held by the vast majority of the people concerned with social conservatism. Social conservatists' desire to place restrictions on same sex marriage and other LGBTQ rights, comprehensive sex education in public schools and abortion stand out as the principle issues that set social conservatists apart from the more centrist and progressive members in Canadian society. These concerns are not "current symptoms of the (mental) disease" as you so cavalierly phrase it. They are a very real concern by many in our society and unless the CPC comes to grip with that understanding rather than dismissing it out of hand, we might never be able to get rid of the LPC -- and maybe we don't deserve to.

Again. Look south. The lessons are there for all to see.

 :cheers:


----------



## AbdullahD (25 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Do you think a practicing Muslim would be able to be prime minister?



Well, if their is a practicing Muslim, who is in any way competent.. he would be an amazing choice for the CPC next election 

But right now I have not seen a capable Muslim politician in Canada.. so no 

But politics and religion should remain seperate.. so yes... 

Interesting question once thought upon deeper.
Abdullah


----------



## Sub_Guy (26 Oct 2019)

FJAG said:
			
		

> Again. Look south. The lessons are there for all to see.
> 
> :cheers:



I disagree. We are nothing like our neighbours to the south.  

The Conservatives ran this country for what? Nearly a decade? I don’t recall anything being mentioned about the party, (not individual MPs) having a desire to change abortion laws, same-sex marriage, or LGBTQ rights. It’s always a 3rd party claiming the Conservatives have a “hidden agenda”.  Canadian media does a great job helping the LPC as well, every time they interviewed a Conservative candidate they made sure to work the topic of abortion into the conversation. It seemed like everyone except the Conservative party was bringing the subject up.

Two very different countries.


----------



## Brad Sallows (26 Oct 2019)

>You cite two extremist views neither of which is held by the vast majority of the people concerned with social conservatism.

Certainly not extreme.  Reagan-will-unleash-Armageddon was an occasionally recurring feature in the MSM (since back in those days, all I had was MSM as a font of information), and the "The Handmaid's Tale" was essentially unremarked upon until people started circulating their weird anxieties in today's left-leaning portion of the MSM.  Some people hold it up as an example of what they fear will come to pass.  Those people are unmoored from reality.

The point isn't that a large majority has to believe each particular piece of nonsense.  Those are two examples of bizarre concerns from a long list of imaginary futures that people keep in their heads.  The point is that a large number of people are overwrought over things they imagine which are highly unlikely to occur.  No-one that anxious is completely healthy.  Of course, they might know full well they are behaving hysterically purely as a rhetorical device - 1) Republicans, 2) ???, 3) Handmaid's Tale!.  That's still unhealthy, but differently so.

Most infringements of rights and liberty in general will emerge from the political left as it continues its war on thought and expression and property, not because some private member's bill emerges in the House to try and fight its way past the House, Senate, and courts.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (26 Oct 2019)

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> But right now I have not seen a capable Muslim politician in Canada.. so no



https://muslimlink.ca/news/muslim-canadians-who-won-in-the-2019-federal-election

There are 12 Muslim politicians after this election out of 338 seats - so 3.5% of all elected Federal politicians.  2 of them were Ministers in the last government - s close to 6% representation.

I find Omar Alghabra to  be both personable and effective.  He was the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of International Trade Diversification.  I was fortunate enough to sit next to him at a dinner with him last year, and I found him to be knowledgeable, interested, and well-informed about the world, Canada's place in it, and even the role of the military. 

There is also this guy:


> Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative Member of Parliament for  Edmonton Manning
> Lebanese Canadian Ziad Aboultaif co-managed Axxess Furniture Inc., an Edmonton-based furniture distribution business, for 12 years.
> 
> Elected in 2015, Ziad Aboultaif proposed the failed Private Member's Bill C-223 aimed at establishing a Canadian Organ Donor Registry. In 2003, Aboultaif made a partial-liver donation. Since 2017, he has served as the Official Opposition Shadow Minister for International Development. In this role, he has had the opportunity to travel to many countries that receive development assistance from Canada, such as Nicaragua, Lebanon, Jordan, Senegal, Nigeria, and Bangladesh



This fella looks interesting:



> Sameer Zuberi, Liberal Member of Parliament for Pierrefonds-Dollard
> Sameer Zuberi, a 39-year old father of two, holds degrees in law from Université du Québec à Montréal (UQAM) and mathematics from Concordia University. He has worked in the areas of university administration, law, media relations, human rights, and served in the Canadian Forces Reserves.
> 
> Interesting Fact: Sameer is of mixed race Pakistani-Italian-Scottish heritage.



So I guess it is indeed possible....and of course the religion of an MP is completely immaterial.


----------



## Remius (26 Oct 2019)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> I disagree. We are nothing like our neighbours to the south.
> 
> The Conservatives ran this country for what? Nearly a decade? I don’t recall anything being mentioned about the party, (not individual MPs) having a desire to change abortion laws, same-sex marriage, or LGBTQ rights. It’s always a 3rd party claiming the Conservatives have a “hidden agenda”.  Canadian media does a great job helping the LPC as well, every time they interviewed a Conservative candidate they made sure to work the topic of abortion into the conversation. It seemed like everyone except the Conservative party was bringing the subject up.
> 
> Two very different countries.




I agree with most of this.  But the conservatives do themselves no favours when someone like Trost who ran for the leadership put abortion and gay marriage front and center in his leadership bid.   Or that there were elements of the party trying to get at least 50 pro life members elected.  There is a segment of the party that wants to get enough influence to reopen that debate.  I don’t think the agenda is hidden or what not.  Just a conflict within the party that isn’t resolved.   

I fully expect the social conservatives to come out in force if there is a leadership race.


----------



## Jarnhamar (26 Oct 2019)

PPCLI Guy] 

So I guess it is indeed possible....and of course the religion of an MP is completely immaterial.
[/quote]

Agreed. Muslim politicians do just fine and contrary to what some suggest aren't out to said:
			
		

> I agree with most of this.  But the conservatives do themselves no favours when someone like Trost who ran for the leadership put abortion and gay marriage front and center in his leadership bid.



So, I guess I dont know as much about politics as I thought. I've never heard about social conservatives before reading it here yesterday.

Are the majority of conservatives these social conservatives that are against gay marriage, are pro-life * and generally how they're described on Wikipedia? Or would social conservatives be a smaller  more extreme type group? 

We really need a middle party. All the moderates from each political partys get together and find a way to work together to find balanced ways to deal with stuff. We need to unseat the Liberal/Conservative mafia. 




*I think the pro-choice/pro-life argument can extend beyond religious aspects so not just religion driven.


----------



## GR66 (26 Oct 2019)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> I disagree. We are nothing like our neighbours to the south.
> 
> The Conservatives ran this country for what? Nearly a decade? I don’t recall anything being mentioned about the party, (not individual MPs) having a desire to change abortion laws, same-sex marriage, or LGBTQ rights. It’s always a 3rd party claiming the Conservatives have a “hidden agenda”.  Canadian media does a great job helping the LPC as well, every time they interviewed a Conservative candidate they made sure to work the topic of abortion into the conversation. It seemed like everyone except the Conservative party was bringing the subject up.
> 
> Two very different countries.



Speaking as someone who voted CPC (with some reservations) I can see where some socially progressive Canadians might have some reservations about the Conservatives under Scheer.  You are 100% correct about the Conservatives under Harper not having a "hidden agenda" and I had no fear of any kind of rights rollback under him as PM.  

Andrew Scheer isn't Stephen Harper though.  Harper and his core team had very firm control over the party and its agenda.  I don't think many Canadian believe that Andrew Scheer would have anywhere near that kind of control over some of the more socially conservative elements of the party.  Add to that his own comments in the past about his personal beliefs on these matters and a level of doubt is allowed to creep in on the issue.  

With the weight of the electorate in more socially liberal urban areas in Canada I think any attempt to roll back any existing rights would be political suicide for the Conservatives so don't believe in a million years that ANY CPC leader would do anything like that.  But that tiny seed of doubt that Andrew Scheer has allowed to creep in may have been one more reason for people to put their vote elsewhere this time around.

 :2c:


----------



## Journeyman (26 Oct 2019)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Interesting Fact: Sameer is of mixed race Pakistani-Italian-Scottish heritage.


No interest in his religious beliefs, but I'm intrigued by the potential dinner offerings.   op:


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (26 Oct 2019)

Obviously, curried spaghetti with haggis-balls sauce. 

 ;D


----------



## Blackadder1916 (26 Oct 2019)

Halal Haggis Ravioli

https://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/19/world/edinburgh-journal-haggis-the-food-of-poets-well-one-scottish-poet.html


> Mr. Crombie said he also had begun to make halal haggis, prepared in accordance with ritual slaughter, for Muslim customers, and Mr. Macsween produced a list of recipes for red peppers stuffed with haggis, ''wee cocktail haggis'' canapés and pasta fillings. ''You haven't lived until you've had haggis ravioli,'' he said.


----------



## AbdullahD (26 Oct 2019)

...

2 things in this thread have confirmed, I live under a rock.

Proud of the Muslim MP's, from my heart. Thanks for pointing them out.

Halal haggis eh? I thought I was safe from that stuff since I converted... time to torture the kids ^^

Abdullah


----------



## ballz (26 Oct 2019)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> It is clear that the poster is speaking of his opinion, and that of others.  Having an opinion different than yours does not a troll make.   The negative response from other posters does however seem to confirm his opinion of conservatives....



First off, I'm not conservative. Nor did I vote CPC (or PPC or libertarian for that matter) this time round. I couldn't vote for any of the clowns, and since my riding was going to be a slam dunk for the CPC anyway I showed up and scratched my ballot.

I read his posts as the thread developed and genuinely believe there is someone on the other end that is deliberately making comments about Scheer in areas where Trudeau is actually the worst offender of the same/similar character offense by ten-fold, in order to get others wound up. The fact that it is subtle / believable is why it's "master" level, as the best trolling goes undetected. That's why I never responded, because it looks like legit trolling.

I.e. Commenting on how dishonest Scheer is and cannot be trusted, while simultaneously actively supporting Trudeau who is a documented liar on something with seriously grave consequences to Canadians...

Commenting on how Scheer "may have" broken the law re: insurance licensing which is a "big deal," while simultaneously actively supporting Trudeau who has broken 2 ethics laws and likely committed a breach of trust...

Commenting on how Scheer has no idea what it's like to grow up in the "real world" and has no "real world experience," while in the same sentence giving Trudeau a pass despite that he was born into political royalty.

His comments towards CPC voters were not exactly astute, re: how tight the election is... "What's wrong with voters?"


If it's not trolling, oh well... I'm just calling it as I see it, and choosing not to let those types of weird arguments (trolling or just genuinely oblivious) get me wound up and suck time away from discussing more credible differences between the leaders. Particularly since I wasn't exactly in love with Scheer either.


----------



## Jarnhamar (26 Oct 2019)

[quote author=Ballz] 

Commenting on how Scheer "may have" broken the law re: insurance licensing which is a "big deal," while simultaneously actively supporting Trudeau who has broken 2 ethics laws and likely committed a breach of trust...

[/quote]

You forgot sexually assaulted a reporter.


----------



## mariomike (27 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> You forgot sexually assaulted a reporter.



Shocking. How could anyone be a cheerleader for an individual like that?



> "I don't even wait. And when you're a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab them by the pu--y. You can do anything."


----------



## AbdullahD (27 Oct 2019)

Is this satire? Get 15k for being fired??? What about UI, like us plebs?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/house-of-commons-transition-services-1.5335399


----------



## mariomike (27 Oct 2019)

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> Is this satire? Get 15k for being fired??? What about UI, like us plebs?
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/house-of-commons-transition-services-1.5335399



Politicians are not employees. E.g. They couldn't fire Rob Ford. Can they fire federal politicians?


----------



## stellarpanther (27 Oct 2019)

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> Is this satire? Get 15k for being fired??? What about UI, like us plebs?
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/house-of-commons-transition-services-1.5335399



I don't really have a problem with it because it is something that is being made available to all party's.  They give up their previous jobs and most likely can't go back to them and depending on their age, might have a tough time finding meaningful employment.  When Reg Force mbr's get medically released, they are basically getting fired and we get a package to try to help us have an easier reintegration in to civilian life.


----------



## Remius (27 Oct 2019)

The training and education program seems generous for veterans.

https://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/education-and-jobs/back-to-school/education-training-benefit


----------



## AbdullahD (27 Oct 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I don't really have a problem with it because it is something that is being made available to all party's.  They give up their previous jobs and most likely can't go back to them and depending on their age, might have a tough time finding meaningful employment.  When Reg Force mbr's get medically released, they are basically getting fired and we get a package to try to help us have an easier reintegration in to civilian life.



So if I get released from my job, having given up my previous vocation, do I deserve a hand out as well over and above UI?

Most politicians will have post secondary education of some sort, the average Canadian will not. Consulting positions or activist positions are far more readily available for outed politicians then average Canadians. Not to mention do they not get a hefty pension and other benefits? I think politicians do not need any extra special help, but we could always ask those who are faced with losing their job right now or have lost?

Sorry I am a small government kind of person and I think they should just recieve UI, not extra's on top. They should be in it, to serve Canada, not get rich.. policies enacted by politicians that help politicians raise my eyebrows.

Canadian Forces members to me is a seperate issue,  they should be taken care of. Until politicians stop lying to us, I wont support giving them a cushy life.. waste of money to me.

Also politicians do not run the risk of ending up dead, if they screw up at work. For that price I think our boys should be taken care of.

Now having said that, I think everyone should do their best to take care of themselves. Plan, budget and prepare for the worst case scenarions. Instead of relying on handouts.

But I suspect we will agree to disagree.
Abdullah


----------



## Jarnhamar (27 Oct 2019)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Shocking. How could anyone be a cheerleader for an individual like that?



A comment about Trump, right on time. 
Didn't you just make a post about keeping American politics out of the Canadian politics thread?


----------



## ballz (27 Oct 2019)

Anyone who has been an MP, even if they somehow became one having nothing (unlikely), will have built a network that most people can only dream of. That network in infinitely more valuable than career transition services, further education, etc. If I could pay $15k for a network like that, I'd do it immediately. They are not going to have any problems finding "meaningful" employment.

That is all ignoring the fact that most politicians are already well-established, well-educated, and greatly networked in order to actually get the job in the first place.


----------



## stellarpanther (27 Oct 2019)

I knew my previous MP very well before he lost in the 2015 election.  He is now working as a staffer in one of the other MP's office not making that much money.  So, contrary to popular belief, life is not easy for them once they lose an election and are not old enough to collect a pension.


----------



## Good2Golf (27 Oct 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I knew my previous MP very well before he lost in the 2015 election.  He is now working as a staffer in one of the other MP's office not making that much money.  So, contrary to popular belief, life is not easy for them once they lose an election and are not old enough to collect a pension.



Assuming a Director of ‘something’ for the other MP, vice photocopy clerk, so an Exempt Public Service EX-01 position as a political staffer is not really too much of a hardship. 

:2c:


----------



## stellarpanther (27 Oct 2019)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Assuming a Director of ‘something’ for the other MP, vice photocopy clerk, so an Exempt Public Service EX-01 position as a political staffer is not really too much of a hardship.
> 
> :2c:


I don't know his current salary but I heard second hand that he is not even making half of what he made as an MP.  I don't think $15k is that much to help them try to get themselves back on their feet.


----------



## ballz (27 Oct 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I don't know his current salary but I heard second hand that he is not even making half of what he made as an MP.  I don't think $15k is that much to help them try to get themselves back on their feet.



Half of what he made as an MP, so $85k + benefits? What's the name, I'm sure we can figure all this out. Also curious to know if that's an improvement on what they were making before they became an MP, because that's also likely.


----------



## AbdullahD (27 Oct 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I knew my previous MP very well before he lost in the 2015 election.  He is now working as a staffer in one of the other MP's office not making that much money.  So, contrary to popular belief, life is not easy for them once they lose an election and are not old enough to collect a pension.



One person, one instance, that is a far cry from their reality Ballz has pointed out.

But then again half an MPs wage, is still dang good money in Canada... but what's his name.. im interested for fact checking.


----------



## The Bread Guy (27 Oct 2019)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> ... an Exempt Public Service EX-01 position as a political staffer is not really too much of a hardship.


To be fair, with an EX-01 starting at just under $106K, "not making that much money" depends on what "a staffer in one of the other MP's office" exactly means.  

Base salary for an MP these days is just under $179K/year - plus travel, plus office-running money, etc.

You're bang on about political staff for _Ministers_, especially senior Ministers, making at least EX-01 pay.

If Former MP Guy is a Constituency Assistant (the people in the local office, helping folks with enquiries, EI, Phoenix, pension, etc.) for _another MP_, though, according to an ad from 2017, he'd be making in the $55K range (let's say $58K in today bucks).  

If former MP is a Legislative Assistant based in an MP's office in Ottawa he'd be making between $30K & $70K/year, depending on experience.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (27 Oct 2019)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Assuming a Director of ‘something’ for the other MP, vice photocopy clerk, so an Exempt Public Service EX-01 position as a political staffer is not really too much of a hardship.
> 
> :2c:



An "MP's employees" are not in PS or exempt positions.  Their pay comes from the Member's office budget and the individuals are considered as "employees of the MP".

https://www.ourcommons.ca/Content/MAS/mas-e.pdf


> 3.Member’s Office Budget
> 
> The Board of Internal Economy sets the Member’s Office Budget (MOB).
> 
> ...



The maximum annual salary for an MP's employee is currently $88,300.


----------



## stellarpanther (27 Oct 2019)

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> One person, one instance, that is a far cry from their reality Ballz has pointed out.
> 
> But then again half an MPs wage, is still dang good money in Canada... but what's his name.. im interested for fact checking.


;t
I'll keep that to myself as some people knew I was friends with my MP which they didn't like. It's quite possible that some of them could be on this site and my naming him could also reveal my identity which I prefer to keep anonymous.

Secondly, I don't like to be accused of lying which is basically what you are doing since you feel the need to fact check what I'm saying.


----------



## ballz (27 Oct 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Secondly, I don't like to be accused of lying which is basically what you are doing since you feel the need to fact check what I'm saying.



Send the name via PM? 

That's an odd way to take it considering you don't actually know the info/answers we're trying to figure out here. You can't be accused of lying when you haven't provided any info to start with. I don't think anything I said suggested you were lying.


----------



## AbdullahD (28 Oct 2019)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> ;t
> I'll keep that to myself as some people knew I was friends with my MP which they didn't like. It's quite possible that some of them could be on this site and my naming him could also reveal my identity which I prefer to keep anonymous.
> 
> Secondly, I don't like to be accused of lying which is basically what you are doing since you feel the need to fact check what I'm saying.



If I knew you, which I don't. I would have a greater ability to decide wether or not you can or can not be trusted. It is the internet, my assumptions of everyone on the internet is that they are potentially lying or misrepresenting the truth.

Maybe you are telling me what you think is the truth, maybe you were lied to. I do not know. The fact of the matter remains, even if you are 100% honest or lying.. it is not representative of all MPs. One isolated case does not make a trend.

I prefer to fact check everything I can. It is not intended to insult anyone, in fact if what I find supports someomes statements I tend to trust a them more. Like say Mike, he basically fact checks himself in every post, so if he says something I trust it usually.

I am a fairly critical person and I like to gripe and whine occasionally which can be seen here, my vociferous defense of certain things. You have quoted me directly, so hence my explanation post.

As it stands, I hold my earlier position still.. because I find that it is the logical factual one. I also personally know NDP staffers, christ my cousin married the dang guy.. poor choice on her part  but I had great chats with him on many political subjects, I am not close minded.. I just want facts. If the majority of MPs who get unseated face financial, political and emotional hardships. I want to know, maybe I am being to hard and they fall through the cracks somehow. If that's the case, I will likely change my opinion. But I doubt it.

Any rate, did not mean to offend.
Abdullah


----------



## PPCLI Guy (28 Oct 2019)

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> But then again half an MPs wage, is still dang good money in Canada...



Yes it is...and is the same rate paid to a Sgt Spec2 IPC 4, a newly promoted MWO, and a Capt with 2 years.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (28 Oct 2019)

And if you want a job where a group of people can get you 'fired' every 4 years or less, based on a popularity contest that you cant control, then go right ahead...…..I like my stability.


----------



## Remius (28 Oct 2019)

If you want to attract people to public office, you need to provide some incentives.  Top talent likely take a loss to income.  the average Joe who runs and truly represents the general population tajkes a massive risk on stability. 

I also think that people's pre conceived ideas about politicians makes them think that the average MP gets a soft landing in a cushy post MP job.  Which is more the exception than the rule.  Some have businesses they return to, or law practices or medical practices or what not.  Many struggle to find gainful employment or try to get back to what they were doing before.  A lot have to pound the pavement for work like anyone else.  

Unless you were a cabinet minister, leader or something high profile, you aren't getting high paid consulting work.  

Also, it would be interesting to see who accesses the 15k transition assistance. I don't think its everyone.


----------



## mariomike (28 Oct 2019)

For anyone interested in the pension plan for members of parliament,
https://www.canada.ca/en/treasury-board-secretariat/services/pension-plan/pension-publications/reports/administration-members-parliament-retiring-allowances-act-report/frequently-asked-questions-changes-members-parliament-pension-plan.html


----------



## Remius (28 Oct 2019)

mariomike said:
			
		

> For anyone interested in the pension plan for members of parliament,
> https://www.canada.ca/en/treasury-board-secretariat/services/pension-plan/pension-publications/reports/administration-members-parliament-retiring-allowances-act-report/frequently-asked-questions-changes-members-parliament-pension-plan.html



Also that pension plan may be why we might not see an election for at least 2 years. A lot of NDP members will want their 6 years before the next election...


----------



## dapaterson (28 Oct 2019)

Interesting... you vest in the CAF pension plan with only two years of service; MPs require three times that.


----------



## Good2Golf (28 Oct 2019)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> An "MP's employees" are not in PS or exempt positions.  Their pay comes from the Member's office budget and the individuals are considered as "employees of the MP".
> 
> https://www.ourcommons.ca/Content/MAS/mas-e.pdf
> The maximum annual salary for an MP's employee is currently $88,300.



Blackadder, you are indeed correct.  I cross-linked a Minister’s staff members with a non-cabinet MP.  I stand corrected, re: Exempt PS positions. 



			
				dapaterson said:
			
		

> Interesting... you vest in the CAF pension plan with only two years of service; MPs require three times that.



For RoC, but not a reduced annuity, no?

Regards 
G2G


----------



## dapaterson (28 Oct 2019)

After 2 years, you're vested in the CFSA. Prior to age 50, you can take a transfer value, annual allowance at age 59+, or deferred annuity if you are not yet eligible for an immediate annuity.


----------



## The Bread Guy (28 Oct 2019)

Aaaaaand here's why people lose faith in media ...

_*"The government has to step up its fight against online disinformation in the wake of the federal election, says Democratic Institutions Minister Karina Gould.*  "Going forward, there is still a sense that more needs to be done to address the spread of disinformation on social media platforms," Gould said in a statement to CBC News.  The amount of misinformation and disinformation that circulated during the election will factor into the government's deliberations about what worked and what needs to be improved before the next election, she added.  "We will review, reflect and assess those measures in the coming months. At this stage, it is too early to speak publicly about what those could be."  Gould's comments come as officials tell CBC News that the federal government did detect attempted misinformation or disinformation during the election campaign — just not at a high enough level to compromise the election and for a panel of top bureaucrats to alert the public.  "Yes, there have been some activities observed, none of which met the threshold as identified by the panel," said Stéphane Shank, manager of media relations for the Privy Council Office. "Therefore, no public communications."  However, Shank refused to provide any detail of what people monitoring the election saw, saying only that they were monitoring for both domestic and foreign interference .."_ (CBC.ca)
_*"Despite dire warnings in the run-up to the Oct. 21 federal election of possible foreign meddling in Canada’s democratic process, officials tasked with monitoring and preventing foreign interference did not “observe” any activity that merited sounding the alarm, according to the Privy Council Office* ...  Before and throughout the election, the SITE Task Force also provided security briefings to Elections Canada and Canadian political parties, to promote situational awareness and help them strengthen their security practices, Bujold said.  “Throughout the election, the Protocol Panel held regular meetings and their discussions were informed by intelligence and analysis provided by the SITE Task Force and from other sources,” (PCO spokesperson Pierre-Alain) Bujold told Radio Canada International in an email.  “The Panel did not observe any activities that met the threshold for public announcement or affected Canada’s ability to have a free and fair election.” ..."_ (Radio Canada International, a branch of CBC)


----------



## RangerRay (28 Oct 2019)

I was pretty disappointed with the options. I am getting pissed off at all parties appealing to their bases, leaving true centrists isolated. I voted Tory like I usually do, but I didn’t feel proud of it. Where is the party of the Radical Centre?


----------



## McG (29 Oct 2019)

RangerRay said:
			
		

> I was pretty disappointed with the options. I am getting pissed off at all parties appealing to their bases, leaving true centrists isolated. I voted Tory like I usually do, but I didn’t feel proud of it. Where is the party of the Radical Centre?


What is the incentive to do otherwise when you do not need broad appeal to win under FPTP?


----------



## ModlrMike (29 Oct 2019)

RangerRay said:
			
		

> I was pretty disappointed with the options. I am getting pissed off at all parties appealing to their bases, leaving true centrists isolated. I voted Tory like I usually do, but I didn’t feel proud of it. Where is the party of the Radical Centre?



It's hard to find the center when it's the fringes that are holding onto the marking sticks, and defining what center means.


----------



## RangerRay (29 Oct 2019)

MCG said:
			
		

> What is the incentive to do otherwise when you do not need broad appeal to win under FPTP?



I think that’s why the main parties only got ~33% of the vote. They appealed to their base and centrists said “a pox on all your houses”. Can’t say I blame them. Pisses me off though because that’s how you get Trumps and Trudeaus.


----------



## dapaterson (29 Oct 2019)

My main concern is the collapse of the Conservative vote.  67% in AB and SK masks under 29% everywhere else in Canada.  That's not a government in waiting...


----------



## ballz (30 Oct 2019)

And sadly their move toward the centre wasn't on social issues, it was on fiscal policy....


----------



## Cloud Cover (30 Oct 2019)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> My main concern is the collapse of the Conservative vote.  67% in AB and SK masks under 29% everywhere else in Canada.  That's not a government in waiting...



I thought they took the popular vote? No?


----------



## dapaterson (30 Oct 2019)

Overall, yes, but so heavily weighted in two provinces that it masked their extreme weakness outside the Kenny/ Moe area.  If you get under 30% of the vote in 80% of the provinces, you'll have extreme difficulty in forming a government.

If they don't fix this in the '21 election, it may be much worse than Campbell's post-Mulroney collapse.


----------



## Spencer100 (30 Oct 2019)

What center?  The Tories are about as center as you get.  Their platform was very in the middle.  The choice in Canada, is soft socialism, Green socialism, French socialism, international socialism.  and the Tory party.


----------



## Brad Sallows (30 Oct 2019)

Conservatives need to bend the knee a bit more on social issues to get to that magic 38-40%.

That said, there is no prospect of a backwards step regardless what people wish to imagine or use to scare themselves or others away from voting for conservative candidates.  For social conservatives (so-cons) to pursue their aims requires a government with a majority of so-con MPs.  For that to happen requires a polity of so-cons in Canada, distributed broadly and efficiently so as to be powerful enough to nominate and elect said majority.  If such a polity existed, common sense suggests it would have expressed itself in the recent election if not at some time in the preceding two or three decades.  Therefore, no such threat exists.

And a coalition of so-cons and moderate conservatives (mod-cons) will not do it either.  A mod-con candidate will by definition be someone who has either (passively) refused to endorse the contentious items of the so-con platform or (actively) committed to opposing them (ie. would vote against a private member's bill).  The latter is a declared opponent; the former has political cover (no commitment to support) and very likely an implied bargain with constituents and will want to be re-elected.

To propose that there might exist a coalition of so-cons and Trojan Horse mod-cons is tinfoil-hat territory.  Regardless, the mod-cons would be extinguished in a subsequent election and status quo ante asserted by the next government.


----------



## Altair (31 Oct 2019)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Conservatives need to bend the knee a bit more on social issues to get to that magic 38-40%.
> 
> That said, there is no prospect of a backwards step regardless what people wish to imagine or use to scare themselves or others away from voting for conservative candidates.  For social conservatives (so-cons) to pursue their aims requires a government with a majority of so-con MPs.  For that to happen requires a polity of so-cons in Canada, distributed broadly and efficiently so as to be powerful enough to nominate and elect said majority.  If such a polity existed, common sense suggests it would have expressed itself in the recent election if not at some time in the preceding two or three decades.  Therefore, no such threat exists.
> 
> ...


I agree that Mod-cons do not want this dug up again. But the so-cons are not shy about where they stand. When they are out touting the amount of anti abortion candidates they have running, mostly for the CPC and have a party leader that come hell or high water wont march in a pride parade anywhere in the country, and has a video of himself in the house of commons comparing gay marriage to dogs, and wont apologize for it, ya, that's going to make a lot of people uncomfortable, especially in urban Canada. Toss in what is going on the in the USA, and how some states are putting in place restrictive rules around abortion and some people will definitely decide to park their vote elsewhere simply to avoid any chance of that can of worms opening up in Canada.


----------



## Brad Sallows (31 Oct 2019)

My appeal is to rational people, not instinctive worriers.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (31 Oct 2019)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> My appeal is to rational people, not instinctive worriers.



Where are you planning on finding the former in BC?


----------



## Altair (31 Oct 2019)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> My appeal is to rational people, not instinctive worriers.


Forget rational people and insinctive worriers. 

Focus on that urban vote. 

Among the 60 electoral districts with the highest population density in Canada, the Conservative won a grand total of zero of them


----------



## mariomike (31 Oct 2019)

Altair said:
			
		

> come hell or high water wont march in a pride parade anywhere in the country,



I'm satisfied if a politician tells the truth, obeys the law and keeps the peace. They don't have to march in parades.

But, if they want to, might be wise to start with one of the tamer ones out of town.  

Or, maybe a flag raising.

See how they like it before trying the big parade - which is 22 city blocks long.


----------



## daftandbarmy (31 Oct 2019)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Where are you planning on finding the former in BC?



Have faith; there are a couple of 'Pale settlements' here abouts, populated by the politically agnostic silent majority.


----------



## OldSolduer (31 Oct 2019)

Why would anyone demand a leader march in any parade - gay, straight, anti abortion or pro choice?

Its so much garbage that a political leader "has" to march in any parade.


----------



## mariomike (31 Oct 2019)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Why would anyone demand a leader march in any parade - gay, straight, anti abortion or pro choice?
> 
> Its so much garbage that a political leader "has" to march in any parade.



Why march when you can ride?  

That's our Mayor Mel on a vintage fire truck. More water than you can carry!


----------



## Remius (31 Oct 2019)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Why would anyone demand a leader march in any parade - gay, straight, anti abortion or pro choice?
> 
> Its so much garbage that a political leader "has" to march in any parade.




No one has to.  

But they also have to deal with whatever comes from that.


----------



## OldSolduer (31 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> No one has to.
> 
> But they also have to deal with whatever comes from that.



I'd actually like to see or hear a politician refuse.


----------



## Jarnhamar (31 Oct 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> No one has to.
> 
> But they also have to deal with whatever comes from that.



Let me guess what happens. 

People say "we respect your views and right to attend this event or not and we won't view a decision not to attend as an attack against us, or become outraged and scream for you to lose your job".


----------



## mariomike (31 Oct 2019)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> I'd actually like to see or hear a politician refuse.



Mayor Ford went to the flag raising ( not with much enthusiasm ), but not the parade.

Every other mayor since, and including, Lastman has marched or rode in the parade.

Politicians don't have to go. City police and paramedics are mandated to. Of course, we knew that when we hired on.


----------



## Remius (31 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Let me guess what happens.
> 
> People say "we respect your views and right to attend this event or not and we won't view a decision not to attend as an attack against us, or become outraged and scream for you to lose your job".



You must be new... ;D


----------



## Altair (31 Oct 2019)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Why would anyone demand a leader march in any parade - gay, straight, anti abortion or pro choice?
> 
> Its so much garbage that a political leader "has" to march in any parade.


No politician has too. 

By that same token,  nobody has to vote for the politician that doesn't.


----------



## Jarnhamar (31 Oct 2019)

Altair said:
			
		

> No politician has too.
> 
> By that same token,  nobody has to vote for the politician that doesn't.


HS is right. Politicians are vilified if they don't. The same way celebrities were vilified if they didn't tweet disapproval for Trump.


----------



## ballz (1 Nov 2019)

Altair said:
			
		

> and has a video of himself in the house of commons comparing gay marriage to dogs, and wont apologize for it



I think Scheer has enough things wrong about him that people can not play stupid on this one and pretend that they don't know that the relatively well-known dog's tail vignette has *nothing* to do with comparing the subject to a dog.


----------



## Altair (1 Nov 2019)

ballz said:
			
		

> I think Scheer has enough things wrong about him that people can not play stupid on this one and pretend that they don't know that the relatively well-known dog's tail vignette has *nothing* to do with comparing the subject to a dog.


I can honestly say I don't get the reference.

And regardless,  it has aged very badly. Scheer could have offered a apology for it,  instead offering a response of the issue of gay marriage is settled in Canada, by the way,  Justin Trudeau bad.


----------



## The Bread Guy (1 Nov 2019)

ballz said:
			
		

> I think Scheer has enough things wrong about him that people can not play stupid on this one and pretend that they don't know that the relatively well-known dog's tail vignette has *nothing* to do with comparing the subject to a dog.


This, for the record, from Scheer's statement (read from a piece of paper) the House of Commons in 2005:


> ... Abraham Lincoln has been credited with this quote, which goes something like this, “How many legs would a dog have if you counted the tail as a leg?” The answer is just four. Just because a tail is called a leg does not make it a leg. If Bill C-38 passes, governments and individual Canadians will be forced to call a tail a leg, nothing more, but that is not inconsequential, for its effect on marriage, such an integral building block of our society, would have far-reaching effects ...


More before & after context @ the link.


----------



## Remius (1 Nov 2019)

Except Abe Lincoln's actual quote was about a calf, not a dog.  Semantics but it wasn't even an accurate quote.  I don't believe that he was comparing gay marriage to dogs.  

The point of his quote was to argue that gay marriage was not in fact marriage because they can't have kids.  Which is his religious dogma that he brought into politics. 

He was arguing that gay marriage was not valid from a religious stand point.  

That is all that we need to know about it.


----------



## Altair (1 Nov 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Except Abe Lincoln's actual quote was about a calf, not a dog.  Semantics but it wasn't even an accurate quote.  I don't believe that he was comparing gay marriage to dogs.  Unlike CPC MP Cheryl Gallant who at around the same time said that it could lead to bestiality... :
> 
> The point of his quote was to argue that gay marriage was not in fact marriage because they can't have kids.  Which is his religious dogma that he brought into politics.
> 
> ...


Which,  I think one can say without much argument, is terribly out of place in 2019. Understanding full well he said this in 2005, but couple this with refusal to march in pride parades,  refusal to say what his current stance on gay marriage is beyond the law is settled in Canada,  or that his views have evolved but won't say how,  and how anti abortion groups are openly gloating about the amount of candidates they have running and you get why people,  especially in urban ridings,  get very uncomfortable with Scheer. 

All he had to do was say I'm sorry for that speech,  my views in 2005 are not my views now,  and while my religion isn't supportive of gay marriage,  I personally am. I apologize to anyone I may have hurt with my words in 2005, and promise to do better going forward. 

That would have defused the issue far better than what he did say. 

*Unless of course that was not true,  in which case... Yikes. 64 percent of Canadians support same sex marriage,  its best to be in lockstep with the majority of Canadians when running for office.


----------



## Remius (1 Nov 2019)

Altair:  PM sent to you.  thanks.


----------



## Altair (1 Nov 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Altair:  PM sent to you.  thanks.


If you say so.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (1 Nov 2019)

Maybe Scheer was worried about all those new insurance policies he was going to have to cut for the newly empowered gay community?

He was an insurance broker right? :dunno:

 :stirpot:


----------



## PuckChaser (1 Nov 2019)

Altair said:
			
		

> All he had to do was say I'm sorry for that speech,  my views in 2005 are not my views now,  and while my religion isn't supportive of gay marriage,  I personally am. I apologize to anyone I may have hurt with my words in 2005, and promise to do better going forward.



Are you Trudeau's publicist? That's a word for word copy of Trudeau's "apology" over wearing blackface on multiple occasions.

The problem with Scheer's speech is it got blown out of proportion as it fit the narrative the Liberals and Liberal-friendly media was pushing. In an era of cancel-culture where we destroy comedian's careers for jokes they told 20 years ago, we have people supporting someone to be the Prime Minister of our country who wore blackface on multiple occasions. Kind of puts his India debacle into context: Trudeau has little to no respect for minority cultures, he just wants their votes.


----------



## QV (1 Nov 2019)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Are you Trudeau's publicist? That's a word for word copy of Trudeau's "apology" over wearing blackface on multiple occasions.
> 
> The problem with Scheer's speech is it got blown out of proportion as it fit the narrative the Liberals and Liberal-friendly media was pushing. In an era of cancel-culture where we destroy comedian's careers for jokes they told 20 years ago, we have people supporting someone to be the Prime Minister of our country who wore blackface on multiple occasions. Kind of puts his India debacle into context: Trudeau has little to no respect for minority cultures, he just wants their votes.



And the media doesn't really care about racist behaviour unless it's to destroy the opposition to their preferred candidate.


----------



## Remius (1 Nov 2019)

QV said:
			
		

> And the media doesn't really care about racist behaviour unless it's to destroy the opposition to their preferred candidate.



It did.  At the beginning but when they saw the public at large didn't care they moved away from it. 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/trudeau-blackface-discussion-online-1.5306563

A big difference the LPC vs the CPC this past election was getting in front of issues.  Trudeau stepped up and apologised quickly.  Scheer went into hiding, avoided questions or didn't answer them and only after days did he ever address them.  If you want to keep something I n the media just avoid the questions and look like you are hiding something.


----------



## Jarnhamar (1 Nov 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> It did.  At the beginning but when they saw the public at large didn't care they moved away from it.
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/trudeau-blackface-discussion-online-1.5306563



"The public at large didn't care"

I think 'Left wing people on Twitter and Facebook didn't seem to care' would be more accurate, according to that article. 

It was world news and a big joke about the woke feminist president getting egg on his face, again. I think our media likes to tell is what we think is big news and what's not.


----------



## Good2Golf (1 Nov 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> "The public at large didn't care"
> 
> I think 'Left wing people on Twitter and Facebook didn't seem to care' would be more accurate, according to that article.
> 
> It was world news and a big joke about the woke feminist president getting egg on his face, again. I think our media likes to tell is what we think is big news and what's not.



That was true, I was traveling in business a lot at the time and saw it globally...HOWEVER...people outside of Canada are eligible to vote in an election, so...   True=/=relevant


----------



## QV (1 Nov 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> It did.  At the beginning but when they saw the public at large didn't care they moved away from it.
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/trudeau-blackface-discussion-online-1.5306563
> 
> A big difference the LPC vs the CPC this past election was getting in front of issues.  Trudeau stepped up and apologised quickly.  Scheer went into hiding, avoided questions or didn't answer them and only after days did he ever address them.  If you want to keep something I n the media just avoid the questions and look like you are hiding something.



I think you under represent just how much effort the media has made to shape public opinion for the LPC, and how successful it was.  Granted , they've reported on negative things about the LPC and Trudeau, but only because they absolutely had to, and then they quickly moved to something else.  If the CPC or PPC leader had been embroiled in any of the same scandals as Trudeau, it would be round the clock attacks until that person was completely destroyed.  Many people employed in the media were fighting for their financial survival, both the CPC and PPC would have reduced their funding to one extent or another.  As long as the LPC keep tossing _hundreds of millions _at the media, and the CPC suggest they will defund, the media coverage will be comparatively biased.  The average citizen just catches a 10 second headline then back to kids, hockey, work, etc... this is a huge advantage for the LPC with the media largely on their side.


----------



## Altair (1 Nov 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> It did.  At the beginning but when they saw the public at large didn't care they moved away from it.
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/trudeau-blackface-discussion-online-1.5306563
> 
> A big difference the LPC vs the CPC this past election was getting in front of issues.  Trudeau stepped up and apologised quickly.  Scheer went into hiding, avoided questions or didn't answer them and only after days did he ever address them.  If you want to keep something I n the media just avoid the questions and look like you are hiding something.


Canadians tend to be a forgiving people. 

Its why Scheer and his non apology befuddled me.


----------



## mariomike (1 Nov 2019)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> , we have people supporting someone to be the Prime Minister of our country who wore blackface on multiple occasions.



People like,



> President Barack Obama endorses Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau
> https://edmonton.citynews.ca/2019/10/16/barack-obama-justin-trudeau-endorsement/
> 
> Martin Luther King's son says he would vote for Trudeau despite pipeline and blackface
> ...



Rhetorical question: Any similar endorsements for Mr. Scheer?

Perhaps next time the CPC will heed this advice,



			
				Journeyman said:
			
		

> Especially any CPC leader who won't look the more extreme right elements of the party straight in the eye and say, "STFU; that isn't who we are."  Waffling by saying "I won't open that can of worms.... but hey, if any back benchers want to, who am I to critique" lost him a bunch of credibility.



Or, perhaps not.


----------



## AbdullahD (1 Nov 2019)

I may have to nuance my views on blackface now... I live in a native predominate town... halloween was last night...

It was amazing the number of kids who had darkened faces in order to fit with their costumes...

Yes, most these kids are part native to a degree. So maybe cause they are it is ok? Any rate maybe I am just old now? Maybe this is why the blackface issue has no traction... it is my first year seeing this.. the white kids didn't touch it though... maybe people up here just do not care and it is only bad when right wing, white adults do it?

I was just amazed. My daughter's girl friend was the first to come over and I know for a fact their is not a malicious bone in that family anywhere, great folks, great neighbors and great Canadian's. Maybe the issue has evolved past what it used to be and I missed it.

Anyone else experience this or just me? Because if it is country wide.. maybe I am holding wrong views and will have to ponder if it is still ignorant to do or not. 
Abdullah


----------



## The Bread Guy (1 Nov 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> ... the public at large who voted didn't care enough for it to change their vote ...


Another refinement on that ...


----------



## mariomike (2 Nov 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> At the beginning but when they saw the public at large didn't care they moved away from it.
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/trudeau-blackface-discussion-online-1.5306563



Interesting,



> Trudeau 'blackface' discussion surged online and then waned after 3 days, report finds
> 
> : most of the blackface-related tweets coming from Conservative partisan accounts, for example, were only seen by other Conservative partisans, the report found.
> 
> "Among partisan Twitter users, Conservatives are driving the conversation about the controversy," the report found. "The blackface-related hashtags are disproportionately populated by right-leaning partisans who are largely speaking among themselves."


----------



## Jarnhamar (2 Nov 2019)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Interesting,



Almost like Trudeau can do no wrong among a majority Liberals eh?


----------



## mariomike (2 Nov 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Almost like Trudeau can do no wrong among a majority Liberals eh?



I just know what I read in the article posted by Remius.


----------



## daftandbarmy (2 Nov 2019)

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> I may have to nuance my views on blackface now... I live in a native predominate town... halloween was last night...
> 
> It was amazing the number of kids who had darkened faces in order to fit with their costumes...
> 
> ...



Fortunately, most normal people don't care about that stuff and just want to have fun. It's the 'Perpetually Outraged' who feed off of the angst to draw attention to themselves. 

And most of them are in big cities where they can share their feigned grief more easily.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (2 Nov 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Fortunately, most normal people don't care about that stuff and just want to have fun. It's the 'Perpetually Outraged' who feed off of the angst to draw attention to themselves.
> 
> And most of them are in big cities *online forums that feed their confirmation biases *where they can share their feigned grief more easily.



Just sayin'


----------



## Brad Sallows (2 Nov 2019)

People, especially conservative supporters, got too wound up over "blackface".

The business with the music/dancing (younger years) was tasteless, yes.  The later dress-up for the party - not at all.  Did everyone forget Trudeau was a drama teacher, and that people who do drama tend to dress a role as well as they can?

"Blackface" is the black-and-red big-"lip" caricature.  Darkening (or lightening) a skin tone is not blackface.  Dressing up, as long as it is done to mimic rather than mock, is not derogatory, even if done light-heartedly.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (2 Nov 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Fortunately, most normal people don't care about that stuff and just want to have fun. It's the 'Perpetually Outraged' who feed off of the angst to draw attention to themselves.
> 
> And most of them are in big cities where they can share their feigned grief more easily.



So, are saying that Trudeau (before he became a politician) was just one of the normal people?


----------



## Brad Sallows (2 Nov 2019)

"Granted , they've reported on negative things about the LPC and Trudeau, but only because they absolutely had to, and then they quickly moved to something else."

The opening reporting on Trudeau and the government's missteps was genuine enough.  Persistence does seem to lack.  But some study would be needed to bear that perception out.  A comparison of the Duffy business to the SNC-Lavalin business (two examples, there are more) would be interesting, to determine whether:
1) The media lets matters drop if the public generally shows no interest.
2) The media keeps at it or drops it depending on which partisans are interested or disinterested.
3) The media is persistent on important scandals regardless whether the public seems disinterested.


----------



## FJAG (2 Nov 2019)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> People, especially conservative supporters, got too wound up over "blackface".



When it get's to which side gets "too wound up over blackface" I think the political persuasion of who is wearing the blackface dictates which side get's "too wound up".

 :cheers:


----------



## PuckChaser (2 Nov 2019)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> "Blackface" is the black-and-red big-"lip" caricature.  Darkening (or lightening) a skin tone is not blackface.  Dressing up, as long as it is done to mimic rather than mock, is not derogatory, even if done light-heartedly.



People will understand you're dressed up as Aladdin without blackface. People don't need you to be in blackface when you're singing "Day-O". 

If Andrew Scheer dressed up that way multiple times over a few years from high schooler into adulthood (while being employed as a teacher), the media would still be talking about it. Justin Trudeau doing something racist doesn't fit the narrative, so it doesn't get the airtime. Duffy incident got the airtime because it fit the "big bad crony capitalist Tory" narrative.


----------



## Jarnhamar (2 Nov 2019)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> People will understand you're dressed up as Aladdin without blackface.



Or if it's Aladdin dressed like an African-American.


----------



## mariomike (3 Nov 2019)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> People, especially conservative supporters, got too wound up over "blackface".



Maybe. We may have to get used to it,



> Trudeau 'blackface' discussion surged online and then waned after 3 days, report finds
> 
> : most of the blackface-related tweets coming from Conservative partisan accounts, for example, were only seen by other Conservative partisans, the report found.
> 
> ...


----------



## renemongeau (3 Nov 2019)

The only reason why Canadians voted Liberal party, they are racism. They prefer a teacher from British Colombia instead of the French citizen from Quebec named Thomas Joseph Mulcair. This story of blackface is related. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## BeyondTheNow (3 Nov 2019)

owl timer said:
			
		

> The only reason why Canadians voted Liberal party, they are racism. They prefer a teacher from British Colombia instead of the French citizen from Quebec named Thomas Joseph Mulcair. This story of blackface is related.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



English as a second language or not, your blanket statement of referring to Canadians who voted Liberal as being racist is highly inappropriate and grossly inaccurate. You’ve been warned publicly and privately. 

Staff


----------



## renemongeau (3 Nov 2019)

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> English as a first language or not, your blanket statement of referring to Canadians who voted Liberal as being racist is highly inappropriate and grossly inaccurate. You’ve been warned publicly and privately.
> 
> Staff


Sorry to offend someone, I am a bit sarcastic with a real situation. 
You know Andrew Scheer has American and Canadian citizenship, Tom Mulcair has French and Canadian citizenship and Justin Trudeau is only a Canadian citizen. I find strange it was an insult, a black face, in a party when everybody knows he was the son of Canadian prime minister and a popular personality before to be a politician. He tried to hide himself. They repeat everywhere he was a drama teacher. Also, Canadians talk about freedom but this is never from Canadian identity.  What is inappropriate or appropriate not matter of words.  Canada is not a country where people are racist, nationalist, xenophobia, chauvinism or patriotic.

The fear of words is terrible because knowledge is freedom.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67UjJHZ1W5o

​
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 Nov 2019)

Edit : Moving forums


----------



## mariomike (29 Nov 2019)

Saw this in US Military,



			
				tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Watch it your bias is showing. I don't see you bashing your PM.



Probably because US Military is not the place to discuss the Prime Minister of Canada.

At any rate, he was re-elected. How and why has been the subject of much discussion. Did President Obama's endorsement have anything to do with it? Who knows?


----------



## dapaterson (13 Jun 2020)

Simcoe North Liberal candidate from the 2019 election was arrested last month and charged ith child pornography offences.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7059810/simcoe-north-former-liberal-candidate-child-pornography/


----------



## Jarnhamar (12 Oct 2021)

xx


----------

