# MilCOTS GMC Silverado (Iltis replacement for the PRes)



## onecat

Okay  maybe this has been talked about in earlier posts, but I was thinking about it on the way home today, as I saw an old GMC pick-up still painted in old CF green and black camo.

Why did the CF stop using pick-up trucks in the 80‘?  Did they work well then and what were they used for?


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## Harry

The venerable 5/4 and the (mostly reserve) CUCV.  Initially purchased as a short term interim vehicle and found it‘s way into many hearts, common lexicons and made the GMC/Chev family proud to have produced a vehicle that proved itself.

Was never purchased as a true SMP vehicle.


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## Doug VT

I‘m pretty sure that the bulk of the old CUCV‘s were disposed of in 95‘, well, that‘s the last time that I drove one.  Then we hade to do the conversion to that piece of crap LSVW.  I swear that those things have set a rusting out record, pure JUNK!!


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## DnA

the reg force is getting g-wagons, an the reserves are getting subarbans

are the subarbans supposed to replace the Iltis?

how did DND decide to give us surbarbans, seems kinda strange to give us a civvie vehicle instead of a military one

I dont know much on this but

what do you think of it


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## SNoseworthy

The MILCOTS (or what GM Defense calls COMBATT), will replce the Iltis‘ in service with the reserves. They‘ll all be here by December of this year.

The COMBATT is a militarized version of a Silverado (I think). I did some information gathering on the MILCOTS for my website and here‘s what I got about the program:



> LUVW (MILCOTS)
> In late 2002, a contract was signed with General Motors Defence for the acquisition of 861 militarized GMC Silverado utility vehicles primarily for the Reserves. The Military Commercial of the Shelf (MILCOTS) will begin to enter service with the Canadian Forces starting in June 2003 with the final vehicle entering service in December 2003.
> 
> The MILCOTS is not intended for deployment over seas, however some military systems like the IRIS communications system is being installed. The MILCOTS is one of two vehicles intended to replace the aging ILTIS fleet. Of the 861 MILCOTS being acquired, 801 will be the basic variant, with 142 of these being kitted for the military police. The remaining 60 will be equipped as a cable-layer variant.
> 
> The benefits of this off-the-shelf system is that it comes with a five year warranty that can be supported by any local GM dealer.


As long as they don‘t go outside of Canada, the MILCOTS should serve the CF well. The link to GM Defense‘s COMBATT information is  http://www.gm-defense.com/products.asp?ProductID=7


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## playtime

anyone have any insight on the new replacement for the iltis? i hear conversion courses are ongoing.


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## John Nayduk

From a fellow member of the Regiment who works at Customs.

Gentlemen,
Today at work I had the opportunity to exam a shipment of the
Milverado‘s, we may or not get. The driver stated they are eventually being
delivered to London. They don‘t look to bad, they are painted "army green",
inside they have 2  fabric bucket seats in the front (no radio/cd player),
no A/C, they have the regular production lights, but also an "add on" light
switch for blackout, not the NATO standard. There are  racks for rifles in
the centre to hold 4 rifles. The rear seat has 2 fold up seats, facing
forward, does not look comfortable for them, with the radio tray in the
centre. There is a cab on the back with a cage and gate, I am not sure if it
is lockable, but can be made to be so with some screws and a latch.
It will be a comfortable highway ride, but not tactical at all.


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## Spanky

It sounds like it might be a better replacement for the LSVW than the Iltis.  The difference in size and configuration seems to contradict the role that the Iltis was designed for.


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## Michael Dorosh

Yeah, but can you sleep in the bucket seats?  I‘ve had far too many stiff necks from trying to stretch out in the front seat of an LSVW, they just weren‘t made to rack out in!


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## Rafe

Hey;
     Anyone know about those new mercedes made vehicles that are suppose to replace the Iltis.  Just some info on those would be helpful.  :soldier:


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## leopard11

http://www.sfu.ca/casr/101-vehgwag.htm


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## Rafe

Thanks, much appreciated.


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## chrisf

Well, I‘ve figured out why they decided to buy us the silverado...

It just took me about 20 minutes to explain to my father (And I should note, not a civilian, but a former NCO) why buying the Silverado was a bad idea.

He said several times "Well, all we ever had was pick-ups anyway" "Good North American chev truck, it‘s the best you can buy"

Eventually I realised that he didn‘t understand what exactly the pickup was replacing...

"Well, look, you had pickups, but you never used them for recce did you?"
"No, we had jeeps for that..."
"And you couldn‘t mount a weapon on the pick-up, could you..."
"No, that was what the jeeps were for... heh... GPMG..."
"Yes, exactly. But they‘re not replacing the pickups you had with more pickups. They‘re replacing the replacement for the jeep with pickups."
"I don‘t follow..."
"They‘re buying the silverados as a recce vehicle."
"Well that‘s no good, that‘s a stupid idea..."

In anycase, it took me 20 minutes to explain to him why buying the silverado was a bad idea.

Bare in mind that:

A. He was a senior NCO in the early 80‘s
B. Most of the senior officers in NDHQ were junior officers in the same period...


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## Spr.Earl

Most of those in the Puzzle Palace whent there right after getting thier Commision‘s and have never been in the field since or get swan‘s over seas for 30 day‘s to get the Gong!!!
They are the true REMFS!!   
Who are a detriment to all those at the pointy end!


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## Slim

Everyone says that the Hummer is a bad idea...I say "B*&&$#*T to that.

the Hummer could replace three classes of vehicle! 

-They could do all the recce stuff.
-All the admin stuff.
-They could double as an MLVW.
-They could double as ADP vehicles.
-they could double as an ambulance. ( by the way when I say "double", I mean that there are modular kits for all of the above configurations!)

So the "expensive" hummer would be bought to replace three other vehs...with all different parts and ...well I‘m sure everyone gets the idea.

So...why in heavens name are we getting the Silverado!!!


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## Thompson_JM

Because they guys who make decitions are idiots.. they dont think in the real world.... and they dont think about whats best for the army.. they think about whats best for their career advancement, and what is the most politically correct...


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## Spr.Earl

> Originally posted by Slim:
> [qb] Everyone says that the Hummer is a bad idea...I say "B*&&$#*T to that.
> 
> the Hummer could replace three classes of vehicle!
> 
> -They could do all the recce stuff.
> -All the admin stuff.
> -They could double as an MLVW.
> -They could double as ADP vehicles.
> -they could double as an ambulance. ( by the way when I say "double", I mean that there are modular kits for all of the above configurations!)
> 
> So the "expensive" hummer would be bought to replace three other vehs...with all different parts and ...well I‘m sure everyone gets the idea.
> 
> So...why in heavens name are we getting the Silverado!!! [/qb]


Yup like the old 3 quad,a bitch to drive but built like a tank,a bitch to drive and was a pig on gas!

The Hummer does take some use to drive because of the high nose and width and it‘s a pig on fuel!!


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## gosho4

Are they at least making improvements to it t make it Safer...


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## Slim

> Originally posted by GD:
> [qb] Are they at least making improvements to it  make it Safer... [/qb]


I had a temp liscence from the U.S. Army for a period of several weeks while I was on ex with them. I was able to drive the Hummer and trailer with only 2 days veh training. ( 1 day off road and 1 day on.)
the vehicle was very easy to handle, well designed and had lots of room.
No complaints on the Hummer at all...from one whose driven it!


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## Spr.Earl

Slim yes we who time in can adapt.

I personly don‘t like the vehicle !

No over all view when driving.

To me the nose and width make me un comfertable along with the lack of view as a driver!!

I sit to low in the cab!!
Don‘t like it.

Let‘s go back to the European style,light and mobile.

Back in 88,89 I was part of the Op4 against U.S. Marine‘s,Engineer‘s and Infantry in Yakima and we ran circle‘s around them Iltis v‘s Humvee‘s
We skooted right up the ridge‘s as we had a standered trani!Humvee‘s have a automatic trani!!
At the end of the Ex. they all came over to have a look at the Iltis and were amazed at what we were driving!


There is nothing wrong with the Iltis.
I‘ve driven that vehicle in all kind‘s off terain and will gladly drive one again!

It‘s a Recce Vehicle!!!

I like it!!


This is a Engineer‘s point of view.


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## Staff

Unless I am mistaken, the G-Wagon is replacing the Iltis. The only vehicles being replaced by the Silverado are MP jeeps and Line cable layers. Initially only the reserves were supposed to get them, but the rumor is that regular force units will also receive the new trucks. 

     Did something change recently? I‘m pretty sure lineswine and meatheads aren‘t generally involved in alot of recces except in the case of  a battallion or brigade CP.


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## chrisf

The question of course becomes, why didn‘t they simply buy new Iltises (Iltisi?)?

- Proven effective vehicle.
- Compatibility with existing spare parts.


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## Staff

Probably because they are too small. Try fitting a bn CO, his driver, all their kit and then throw in a couple of radios. The thing gets pretty cramped. Iknow, Iknow, the CP is usually a LAV nowadays, but, the bosses like to move around the lines seeing the boys. In 1R22R the Cmdt had both available when we went out.


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## chrisf

Well, what about Land Rovers? Another proven vehicle.


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## axeman

Re: Why we need humvs. 
try that thread . it may bring some of these arguments to a new point of veiw


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## _Ditch_

[No message]


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## Michael Dorosh

> Originally posted by Staff:
> [qb] Probably because they are too small. Try fitting a bn CO, his driver, all their kit and then throw in a couple of radios. The thing gets pretty cramped. Iknow, Iknow, the CP is usually a LAV nowadays, but, the bosses like to move around the lines seeing the boys. In 1R22R the Cmdt had both available when we went out. [/qb]


My job on exercise is usually to drive the OC of my reserve unit; the CSM and 2 i/c also go out in the Iltis very often; with four people inside there is no room for rucksacks and barely enough for webbing and personal small packs, so we fit the trailer on for the radios, water, stove, fuel, rucksacks etc.; plus whatever other goodies the CSM likes (ground plane antenna kit, for example).  I‘m rather excited about having a Silverado to drive around in; no more screwing with frozen trailer tarps, or backing up in the dark with the trailer on, or hanging the tiny little Iltis up in a ditch (or finding the elusive friction point on the standard transmission which is different on every Iltis), etc. etc. etc.


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## Spanky

The LUVW/Iltis replacement program has two parts.  The first is the MILCOTS vehicle.  This is the Milverado that will replace, if I‘m not mistaken, all reserve Iltis except the recce.  It will probably not be a one for one exchange.  The reason for this vehicle is maintence.  They can be maintained at GM/Chev dealerships across the country.  Initially, they were a reserve vehicle only.  Of course that will/has changed.
The second vehicle is the SMP (Mercedes)   This is designed to replace all Iltis in the regular force, and reserve recce units, once again, not an a one for one basis.


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## Staff

Has anybody heard why the silverado is not supposed to be deployable on operations? We drove the 5/4s everywhere. If they are doing up the frame and suspension the same, it would not make any sense to use the truck solely domestically.


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## Spanky

Maybe the service department of the GM dealership in Kabul can‘t handle the large influx.  :dontpanic:


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## Jeff Boomhouwer

The main reason we won‘t be getting hummers comes down to politics. Replacement parts and sevice contracts would certainly come from south of the border. The needs of the forces are secondary, or even less, when compared with the political damage caused by not buying products built in Canada.All those members whose ridings include defense contractors would have a tough time explaing that political fumble to wealthy political contributors. Remember the Gulf war when the Americans offered the CF MI Abrams tanks and Bradley fighting veh for a dollar each? The catch was service contracts. If It‘s not manufactured in Que forget it. I would love to see a Canadian designed and manufacturd veh. It would be possible with funding and who knows maybe other countries would be interested in purchasing. The US Marines adopted our CADPAD!


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## Da_man

wait.... your saying we could have got M1s and bradleys?   .... are those pieces so expensive?
Loepards and Iltis pieces are free or what?  Having M1s and hummvs in the CF would have been the best thing...


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## strat0

Obviously some of you Reservists don‘t know the purpose of the Silverado. It is supposed to be an Adm veh for you to conduct your daily ADM tasks, not go to the field for use as an AFV. The Regt‘s that are currently using the Iltis for Armd Recce will be getting the LUVW recce version for it‘s intended purpose.

I laugh at this forum sometimes because of the uninformed B.S. that comes out of some people, if you don‘t know what you are talking about then don‘t B.S. the people who know. I spent 2 yrs in Armoured School Standards if you want to refute me, and I am currently in Training Sqn.

P.S. I have been at the school for 7 yrs and am fully versed on this subject.


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## Recce41

StratO
 Hey, I know who you are! HAHA. Don‘t forget the Leos. I know one of our Cpls, his FiL works for Graf. It was the Germans that were more in the price range for us. In Nov 90, he brought one of the Leo2s to Petawawa. They offered a Regt of tanks+ parts to start. For their soldiers could not leave Germany, under their old constitution. 
 For the Leo 2 is the only untried tank.   :evil:    :tank:


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## humint

Hey, let‘s not forget that some of the reserve recce units are testing the Bombardier 4-wheeler ATV. 

Who knows, may be you‘ll be driving your OC around on that thing -- just think of all the fun you two can have. Meow!


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## Michael Dorosh

humint - I hear the heaters suck on those thing...


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## portcullisguy

Test nothing... I saw dozens of those ATV‘s this summer on the Milcon.

Actually, would‘ve made boosting back to the admin area for pop & chips, from 32CIB‘s lines, a lot friggin easier.


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## John Nayduk

From StratO 
"Obviously some of you Reservists don‘t know the purpose of the Silverado. It is supposed to be an Adm veh for you to conduct your daily ADM tasks, not go to the field for use as an AFV. The Regt‘s that are currently using the Iltis for Armd Recce will be getting the LUVW recce version for it‘s intended purpose."
We hear that they are not a one for one replacement.  If they take 19 Iltis and replace them with 8 or 9 LUVW and a like number of Milcots, then we have no choice unless we stagger the training and have only 1 troop traing at a time.


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## Mansell

I am looking for some pictures of said milverado. If anyone has some, please let me know! Thanx.


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## matt wright

Ok, here is the conspiracy theory of the day:
I just visited that above-named site to check out the G-Wagen. I noted that Magna-Steyr was acquired in 1998 by Magna International. The CEO of Magna International is Belinda STRONACH. One of the first projects frozen by Paul Martin when he took power is procurement of the G-Wagen. Belinda STRONACH is poised to be competition for Martin, although it remains to be seen how much of a threat. Now, I realize she announced her intention to run for office well after the PM froze the deal, but I don‘t believe in coincidences................


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## Redeye

This is a spurious idea, since Martin froze all capital acquisitions except for the Sea King replacement, across the board, and not just in the military.  That occured before Ms. Stronach‘s intentions became commonly known.  You‘d hardly think that Mr. Martin would turn off the tap on hundreds of projects just to put the kibosh on one thing that Magna has to do with.


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## DOOG

G'day folks..
I saw a couple of brand new MILCOTS Line Trucks going into Auto Haulaway in Moncton last night and it got me to thinkin'..
Since this vehicle is going to be the main light duty admin type truck for Reserve units, why not make the best of it. Back when Militia black hats were all recce, (ie pre-cougar), we all had 5/4 ton CPs to use as part of the recce sqns. Some brain child in Fort Fumble decided that the sigs needed them more than us and they were re-distributed. The deal was that we would get a Sig Ops van with crew whenever we needed one. That lasted about two years. Then they started becoming "unavailable".

Now that all the Reserve Armour units are changing back to recce we once again need CPs and it should be two minimum per unit vice the one we used to have.

Since the Army is all cranked up about buying civy pattern trucks..(here it comes folks)..why not go out to the manufacturers of trailers/campers and ask for bids on a truck-back camper CP version. It wouldn't have to have all the bells and whistles that the standard hunters/fishermans have. No microwave, no shower, no stove and fridge. Just a 24 volt system, work spaces and lots of stowage. These could be set up for radios and built to slide on the back of a MILCOTS. When not required as a CP, you just off load them in the compound and leave them until next exercise. That way you can still use the truck for other stuff. They would give units a CP capability and would be okay for civilian areas and dom Ops. The LSVW CPs could be used when you are on a large training area doing the "cross country thing. The CP camper could also be dropped off on hard standing and used  in conjunction with a generator or house current to be a dismounted CP.

I think this would be a cost affective way to solve the problem of CP shortfalls in Reserve units.

Ottawa guys lurking this means..feel free to cash in.


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## chrisf

Here's another thought... the LCT pods... aren't they just refitted CRATs pods? Meaning that they should be able to be dropped onto a Milcot without modification?


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## ackland

This sounds like a good idea. I just don't want to encourage the powers that be to buy more  of the darn things.

Hopefully we can get a real CP vehicle some day soon.


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## Jarnhamar

Just a side question, I've heard the milcots are not supposed to be used offroading because they have an aluminum undercarage or something. Any truth to that?


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## ackland

Not to sure about that. I just know they really suck off road and on black tracks. They get stuck on dirt roads if the gravel is loose enough and they have next to nothing in terms of ground Clarence. The rear differential is like 6 inches of the ground.


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## GDawg

It would be cool to see a brand new style of pod, possibly with A/C and some more elbow room, but I think we all can agree that the MILVERADO doesn't have the offroad capability that the military needs, so investing in new mods for these vehicles diverts funds from our ultimate goal,  the replacement and subsequent destruction of all LSVWs. UNIMOGs anyone? 8)


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## DOOG

GDawg..
I proposed this as an alternative to SMP CPs for Reserve units. They would be used mostly in civilian areas where there won't be much "off roadin" anway. Recce Sqns need CPs now. Not 5 years from now (or whenever) when someone buys a replacement for the current LSVW CPs. 
No, MILCOTS are not the greatest thing since sliced bread, but they are what we have. We should make the best possible use of them. It would be better to build a $10000 CP box that will slide on an existing vehicle than wait till who knows when for a $30000 version that they won't buy enough of anyway.


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## chrisf

Again, I'm almost sure the LCT pods are just CRATs pods, which mean they should fit rather nicely on a MILCOT. The radio pods should fit on a MILCOT too, not absolutely sure, just a guess there.


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## DOOG

Just a Sig Op..
LCTS? You have to realize that everyone in the army doesn't neccessarily know everyone elses terms. Are you talking about the normal CP box that fits on an LSVW? The one that was originally on the 5/4s? If so, it is designed to fit on the full frame of a vehicle, not in the cargo box.
Further to that, if the army has something that would (now) fit in the cargo box of a civy pattern vehicle like a MILCOTS, I venture a guess that there are not enough of them and they were an overly expensive one-time purchase.

Once again, we need CPs now, not 5 years from now after another ridiculously long purchasing process. A contract to a civy camper manufacturer for a Militarized Civilian Off The Shelve Ops Van from a Camper would get us up and runnning. A redistribution of existing kit wopld not cure the problem (as a matter of fact, that is what got us in this mess in the first place).


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## ackland

Has any one seen a MILCOTS with TCCCS in them yet. I heard a rumor that the veh can't be kitted out because of an electrical problem.

Is this True?

I agree though we do need a CP and soon.


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## chrisf

I didn't actually know if the CP pods on the LSVWs were the same ones off the old 5/4 ton chevs, though if they are, it's not that hard to take the cargo box off a pickup, no problem to swap any surplus CP pods from onto LUVWs.

The CP pods however were not what I was referring to, I was actually referring LCT (Light communications terminal) pods. It's part of the NCCIS equipment. The pods are, as far as I know, former CRATS pods, which were (Again, as far as I know, both CRATS and the old 5/4 ton predate me) mounted inside the cargo bed as opposed to directly to the frame...

Not really enough room inside for a CP, but you COULD most of a CP inside with a little careful planning. Would be practically no room to move though.


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## DOOG

Sig Op..
Now I think I know what you mean. I've seen something like that around. If they fit in acargo box they could probably work, but a CP really does need room to move. If a CP box was available that required the removal of the cargo box portion that would defeat the purpose of my suggestion. I meant for this to be easily converted back and forth between standard MILCOTS and the CP version. Being able to leave the CP box in the compound when not required would be agreat plus. We wouldn't have to tie up a truck with a CP box that was only required on Sqn level or higher exercises.


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## TheEngineer

Is it possible to get the accessories to modify a civilian Silverado (ie paint, bumpers, winches,etc) somehow for a personal vehicle??? Or at least the specs, supplier info??? I really want to do one up to look authentic!

TheEngineer

I'm Not the Problem, I'm the Solution!


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## chrisf

Put on roll bars and paint it green. You will have a fully milspec LUVW


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## Fishbone Jones

No you won't. In addition to the outside cosmetics, there are things like the 24 volt system, black out package, load system for the box, radio rack and GPS mount. Just to name a few. If you really want to be authentic, you'll also need the Allison transmission and drive system.


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## TheEngineer

I only mean authentic in looks, not all the mil spec stuff. Just Body armour, paint, can blackout stuff myself, and I already have the Allison tranny and duramax. Just smacked it up and need to fix some stuff and paint it so I wanted to change it up!

The Engineer


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## chrisf

Body armour? Since when did the LUVW have body armour?

Really... just paint it green.


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## TheEngineer

Relax! - HD Bumpers and attachment points are body armour to an extent. It's more than enough for commuter traffic!

TheEngineer


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## chrisf

[Snip]


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## Thompson_JM

well in order to get a "Fully" Authentic CF vehicle you will have to modify it to hoplessly break down for no reason every so many kilometers!  ;D


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## Michael Dorosh

Cpl Thompson said:
			
		

> well in order to get a "Fully" Authentic CF vehicle you will have to modify it to hoplessly break down for no reason every so many kilometers!  ;D



That's easy enough to do - just loan it out to 300 different users, half of whom drive that particular vehicle type only once every two months, and have them treat it as if it doesn't belong to them, or that whatever they break will be fixed by the taxpayers.


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## ackland

argylls_recruiting said:
			
		

> Hey, let's not forget that some of the reserve recce units are testing the Bombardier 4-wheeler ATV.
> 
> Who knows, may be you'll be driving your OC around on that thing -- just think of all the fun you two can have. Meow!



I'm in the unit  testing those ATV's it is a total waste of time and is due to be over in may when we will be getting as far away from those peices of Shite as possible.


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## childs56

One thing with any vehicle like a jeep, you must loose the roof, strap your kit to the outside and keep your ammo and weapons on you. I have seen many times Officers and Snr Ncos driving around in an Iltis with the roof and doors on. needless to say they looked like idiots trying to get out. I was in the field no roof no doors just cam net and rucksacks, the officer looks over at me and says umm Its getting cold out I think we should put the roof on, I replied umm sir the roof is back at the Biv. No further comment from him. The Americans Artillery Observers that we drove past loved the size of the Iltis, it is small compact and low silhouette, as opposed to their Humvees in which they said were noisy, to tall for trying to hide in and their size made it hard to find holes to make them dissapear. Needless to say whenever I used the Iltis off road it was superb. I drove in mountainous terrain, in BC, good vehicle if you keep the maintenance up, and actually teach people how to drive the thing. It doesn't matter what you have to drive if you have an idiot behind the wheel it will get stuck, no matter if it has tracks or wheels. I drove an LSVW for the fires in BC and will say the truck actually impressed me as to how well it drove,(same thing put an idiot behind the wheel it will get stuck) Put the thing in 2nd gear and then drive it, engage the 4 wheel drive and dont be afraid to put it in 4 low and lock the rear diff. makes a world of difference. although it wasn't fast i will say it did go farther then my Chevy diesel rental truck could. I wont say much about the construction of the LSVW as it is to be desired, but has alot of good ideas on it such as the axles, and the 4 banger turbo diesel.the high vis you have in front of you while driving. We need good off road vehicles, but more importantly we need a central driving school to teach people how to drive off road. and we need the money to properly maintain these vehicles.


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## Michael Dorosh

And, CTD, one final point to your excellent post -  drivers need to keep in practice; schooling them once and then letting their skills slide doesn't help anyone.

I also enjoyed the cabover design of the LSVW and found it fun to drive. 

The heaters in those things rocked, too.


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## pbi

> Obviously some of you Reservists don't know the purpose of the Silverado. It is supposed to be an Adm veh for you to conduct your daily ADM tasks, not go to the field for use as an AFV. The Regt's that are currently using the Iltis for Armd Recce will be getting the LUVW recce version for it's intended purpose.
> 
> I laugh at this forum sometimes because of the uninformed B.S. that comes out of some people, if you don't know what you are talking about then don't B.S. the people who know. I spent 2 yrs in Armoured School Standards if you want to refute me, and I am currently in Training Sqn.
> 
> P.S. I have been at the school for 7 yrs and am fully versed on this subject.



Actually, I'd say you're _not_ fully versed on it, at all. First of all, in our Res CBG, the purpose of the Silverado has been explained to us quite differently-it is most definitely a field vehicle, and NOT a vehicle for daily admin tasks. Res units are already issued COTS "green fleet" vehicles for this purpose, under a separate program. The "Milverado" is to be used in the field, but with off-road restrictions due to the warranty and service agreements with the manufacturer. If we violate the terms of the warranty, we negate the supposed cost-saving value of being able to get   dealer service.

Second, Res units are not necessarily receiving sufficient LUVWs to replace the Iltis on a one for one basis. In our case, our two Bde Cavalry units, the FGH and the SaskD will both be short LUVWs, in one case a whole troop's worth. The Silverado is an inadequate substitute for the missing LUVWs for several reasons. This problem has been aggravated by the Army decision to convert all Res Cavalry to Recce, thus creating a demand for LUVW that did not previously exist. I believe that an additional buy of LUVWs will be made to cover part of this shortage, but at the time of my depl over here that was not finalized.

Finally, I think you are being   a bit hard on the Reserve folks here. Most of them are not trying to "BS" anybody-they are trying to find out the facts, or offering their own understanding of those facts, just as you have tried to do.   Your attitude smells a bit of   RegF superiority-on this site we usually try to stay away from that sort of thing. Cheers.


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## Kirkhill

Is there ANY chance at all that either/or/or both  the Milverado and the G-Wagen might be aquired in an open configuration?

I note that the Australians, Brits, Jordanians, French, New Zealanders and now the Irish, to name a few all field vehicles that are open but with mine-protected floors.  They are fitted with "roll-over" cages and often with integrated ring mounts for Heavy Weapons.  They are deployed not just by Special Forces but also by "line" and "light" infantry.

Other characteristics seem to be that the CC is seated beside the driver with a pintle mounted MG in front of him but his seat is raised to give him improved site lines and a greater arc of fire.

The reason I bring this up here is that one of the latest versions is based on the Ford F350 super pickup with its top chopped off and its doors removed. It is employed by the Irish.

Vehicles of this type range from sub-compact jeeps to 2 tonne trucks.

Or is this just so much wishful thinking?


----------



## pbi

I agree this is the way to go. I think we discussed this under:
http://army.ca/forums/threads/18423/post-108226.html#msg108226
Cheers


----------



## Kirkhill

You're right pbi.  Just frustration on my part.   Cheers.


----------



## Bushman

don't mean to butt in and intrude, but i have seen several civvie licenced Iltis's here in vancouver and victoria on the logging roads  and old decommissioned mining roads. these litle vehicles seem to be the perfect thing for this enviroment. easy to field fix, lightweight (read: easy to extract) and fuel effiecent. from what i have read and understand, the govner' is replacing these with the GMC silverado... um why? i can see major problems down the road...ie: all the computers on the GMC, sensors etc failing in the field. whereas the iltis has none of this computer crap............

but i am not surprised..........the govmint has always sold you guys out!!! makes me angry...... :rage:


----------



## Gunnerlove

I am sure that when the Iltises were new they were a decent vehicle. 18 years later they ours are worn out and deep into POS territory. If Canada was to buy some of the thousands of ex German Iltises to replace our overused ones it might be a cost effective stop gap to buy us some time to figure out what we are going to replace the Iltis with. 

I was reading the manual for the Milverado and they seem to have enough towing capacity to tow a much heavier load than a C3 howitzer. I wonder if we could use them like the Americans use their Hummers and light guns (one towing the gun and one hauling ammo). 

Nah, never happen.


----------



## 12alfa

pbi said:
			
		

> Finally, I think you are being   a bit hard on the Reserve folks here. Most of them are not trying to "BS" anybody-they are trying to find out the facts, or offering their own understanding of those facts, just as you have tried to do.   Your attitude smells a bit of   RegF superiority-on this site we usually try to stay away from that sort of thing. Cheers.



If your hanging out here you will get a lot of this. I have gotton over it, it was not easy but do-able. Some things don't change, it's the 80's all over again.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

> Some things don't change, it's the 80's all over again.



You really think it has gone back to that?

Dave
Res 80-88, Reg 88-04


----------



## 12alfa

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> You really think it has gone back to that?
> 
> Dave
> Res 80-88, Reg 88-04


Re-read that post, now tell me.

This fourm has lots of them there posts.Why we can't all get along is beyond me. Thank god the younger troops don't know of this attitude we have lived through. It's changed for the better, but it's still there, just underground I think.


----------



## Fraser.g

Sorry but by what I have seen in the three weeks that we have gotten them they suck!

1. Suspension: One of th Milcots dented the skid plate when crossing a cattle guard at 10 KPH (check the computer). So much for the harder suspension.

2. Deployability:  They can not be deployed overseas. So much for training on the equipment that you will actually use.

3. Cost:  Correct me if I am wrong but I am under the impression that the Milcot has cost $80000 a unit and th G wagon is $60000. How is this a savings by giving the reserves crap?

JMO


----------



## pbi

Folks: I suggest you try:
http://army.ca/forums/threads/20049.0.html

where you'll find a good discussion of this subject under "Equipment//Vehicles".

Cheers.


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## PPCLI Guy

12Alfa,

I'm not so sure that this board is the best bellweather.  My sense is that things are a lot better than they were - but maybe becuase I refuse to be baited, and ignore trolls of all types.


----------



## pbi

12Alfa said:
			
		

> If your hanging out here you will get a lot of this. I have gotton over it, it was not easy but do-able. Some things don't change, it's the 80's all over again.



To tell you the truth, I don't really see a lot of Strat10's kind of attitude, thankfully. The inter-component relation seems to work pretty well here, which to me is one of the great attributes of this site. I would have to side with PPCLI Guy (_why do I do that so much.........?) _ in suggesting that while there are still idiots on both sides of the fence, the Reg/Res relationship is way better than it was when I served as a Reserve soldier 74-82. Cheers.


----------



## 12alfa

pbi said:
			
		

> To tell you the truth, I don't really see a lot of Strat10's kind of attitude, thankfully. The inter-component relation seems to work pretty well here, which to me is one of the great attributes of this site. I would have to side with PPCLI Guy (_why do I do that so much.........?) _ in suggesting that while there are still idiots on both sides of the fence, the Reg/Res relationship is way better than it was when I served as a Reserve soldier 74-82. Cheers.



I would agree with you on this also.

Maybe in my old age i'm a bit short fuse'ed. Things are much better, I can see that.

i did not want to say it was all bad, sry, I'll give myself a few extra's.


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## Fraser.g

I have just got back from my first full ex with th milcot and have to say that although very comfortable in the commute form the armory to the field you could not go above 30 KPH in the training area with out grounding out the undercarage on th wheel ruts. The new "militarized suspension" is a joke the addition of two troops into the jump seat caused the "combat anchor" also known as the rear diff to ground out on several occasions. 
I think that this prob could be remedied by stiffening the suspension, and the simple addion of larger wheels. The better solution would be the above and a lift kit for more clearance. Just the opinion of a Jr Officer that is stuck with the truck and is missing his ILTIS.


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## Gilligan

From what I've been told, only the primary reserves are getting the milcots (silverado).   As a comms unit out west, we have radio config'd milcots, and soon a line config'd one.

As for the comment about Humvees being better than Lltis, obviously you've never driven one overseas....Lltis won't get blown up by roadside mines, as that is a possibility with the Humvee.   The Humvee hangs over the sides of the small Bosnian roads, which poses a major problem.   The little Lltis scoots right down the center, no problem whatsoever.   Sure, the Humvee does have some advantages, however the ones that save time and your life are what are important.

Overall, I'm not impressed with the milcots, as stated in another post, they aren't deployable overseas, you can barely deploy them in your own training area, especially if you have no hardpack.  DND got a 5 year warranty on them, and if you get them stuck offroad, you're up s*** creek without a paddle, so to speak.  I got a milcot stuck out in Petawawa, and we had to wait for recovery to come find us and pull us out, at which point we were instructed that policy on the vehicles is to call GM, and have them come and tow you out.  Of course, if you've taken her off hardpack and gotten 'er stuck, you're SOL, because the warranty is void, and any damage is on DND.  It's bad enough the reserves get the leftovers, now we have a chance to really get somewhere with a vehicle that will help us, the the gov't stiffs us again.....by spending more money than on the regs trucks.....make sense to anyone? hardly


----------



## Kirkhill

Hey Gilligan, does it come equipped with ONSTAR? ;D


----------



## Gilligan

HAHAHAHA

     Don't even get me started, the clock isn't even a clock.   IF you want a clock, you have to reset it every time you get in the darn thing, as it has a power switch, which resets the vehicle every time you turn it on or off.   Although, I will tell you, the A/C is a godsend when it's 40 degrees in the middle of summer in Petawawa!   I will add as well, that the seats are relatively comfortable, but careful with your rifles, as you will scrape away the civy toneau (sp?) cover!   Oh, and as one of the guys learned, don't sit on the hood....it's literally a civy truck painted matte green....it crumples like a piece of paper.

  Oh, and heaven forbid you ever roll the thing....no roll bar, like I said....CRUMPLE LIKE A PIECE OF PAPER!


----------



## Gunnerlove

The clock problem was only a problem for myself for a few days.

Now the constant hot is.


----------



## Canuck_25

I have a question.

 Why dosnt the army consider the Land Rover Defender? Cheap on gas, V8 deisel, and it's used by the British and American armies.


----------



## Kirkhill

Land Rover declined to offer a proposal in the LUVW competition.  Along with everybody else under consideration except Mercedes.


----------



## Thompson_JM

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> That's easy enough to do - just loan it out to 300 different users, half of whom drive that particular vehicle type only once every two months, and have them treat it as if it doesn't belong to them, or that whatever they break will be fixed by the taxpayers.



All I can Say in response to that Michael....

Touche'  ;D

One of the many Pet Peeve of mine is the all too common "Its not my truck" attitude. Its far too common in some places and within some people in the Reserves... Mind you we are finding that even when you baby a MILCOT it'll still break. 

personally the only SMP MSE that ive driven that I truly Love is the HLVW its the only truck ive found that is comfortable, durable, and reliable.. 
the MLVW just does the last two. Mind you, with all the cold weather Kit on, you really dont feel the cold when youre in the ML....


----------



## Gilligan

Maybe you'll agree with me, maybe you won't, but I don't think it would really matter what vehicle they chose....it's what they do with it afterwards to adapt it to military use.  No civy vehicle can be taken off the street and put offroad for military use, it will break.  Which is what I've found is the problem with the milcot.  It's decent on fuel, lots of room, so far I have yet to need more space for cargo, but it's the exterior modifications where this vehicle lacks.  It just isn't adequate, the Lltis, you could take it offroad anywhere, and if you hit a bump, it would just keep on going like nothing happened, but with the milcot, it bottoms out every time.  Maybe if they raised it, maybe maybe maybe, what if what if what if.  You could debate that all day, but at the end of the day, the gov't spent too much on inadequacies.


----------



## Steel Badger

the milcot is the Army's Griffon.

A non-rugged civvy item painted green....


Alex, I'll take the land Rover Defender please.


----------



## Gilligan

Imagine a world where the government actually sits down with the members WHO ACTUALLY DRIVE THESE VEHICLES and asks them what it is they require......wishful thinking obviously.


----------



## Thompson_JM

well it seems as if the lift kit would solve alot of the problems of off road use, however they govt doesnt want to take them off road and void the warranty....  

also, my theory is that they reasoned, "why buy an off road lift kit for a truck that will never be deployed on anything but a training ex?" 

not the greatest reasoning, but when you look at it from strictly a monetary perspective it does make some sense.

Cheers


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## mudgunner105

If they placed a lIft Kit on the Milcots they would be so much better as well as if they had some decent off road tires that might have solved the problem but you still have to remember they are a reserve vehicles.   for the purpose they are a decent vehile but like everything it has it flaws.

UBIQUE


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## Thompson_JM

mudgunner105 said:
			
		

> If they placed a lIft Kit on the Milcots they would be so much better as well as if they had some decent off road tires that might have solved the problem but you still have to remember they are a reserve vehicles.     for the purpose they are a decent vehile but like everything it has it flaws.
> 
> UBIQUE




yes.. thank you for echoing exactly what i said.  :blotto:


----------



## childs56

Yes the Milcot is wonderfull isnt it (not the sarcasm). I havent used one myself, i have driven a 2003 Chevy Duramax up when the forest fires were going on. Lets say the LSVW i was given later on was much better for the off road task. Like has been posted earlier it is a great vehicle to go from point a to point b,on hard pack, but once you get to point b and have to switch to 4 wheel drive it is one of the worst vehicle out their. The Chevy's frame hangs down so it almost touches the ground in stock form. The Dodge or Ford at least have their frames off the ground. The fact that these trucks have a very soft sespension is another fault of the Chevy, yes very comfortable ride on the highway, once you go offroad it cannot handle all the wash boards and other pot hole and ruts encounterd. I own a 03 Dodge Diesel, and it drives the loggnig roads pretty well, once you go off the hard pack it is another ball park, all of these pickup trucks are to heavy for the foot print they impose on the ground around them that they just sink in to the mud or other soft ground. My turck has plenty of clearance but thet means nothing if the truck is to heavy for the ground it is used in.  I think it is funny that the military bought a vehicle that is to be used on road only when the majority of our vehicle usage with the iltus it replaced was off road. As for voiding warrenty, i think the CF got shafted. The logging companys out west use their trucks, (mainly fords) off road every day and they still get dealer warrenty work done when a component breaks. So why woudnt DND of gotten teh same deal. Real good question. that we cant answer. I think the original agreement was that these truck would not be driven down tank tracks and bashed up, jumped and stuff like we seem to do with everything else we own in the CF. The fact that we are hardon our vehicle is big cause of lack of driver expierance off road. I now some of you guys are going to say ya right, i will say both regs and reserves do not have enough time off roading to be able to get them selve out of a situation that we all seem to get into. The best way to have gotten out is to not have gotten into it in the first place. The peddle to the metal driveng that is all to common in the military, usually breaks stuff and or gets us stuck. The military needs to run a course in off roading, And teach the members what the capiblity of each one of the vehicle is. A waste of money no, a good way to maintain safe operation of the vehicle itself yes. The fact that we have the Chevy means that members will have to adopt the driving habits themselve. Sometimes that might mean you have to slow down and go slow, or even find another route.  The golden rule is if it looks like you might get stuck, you probely will. 
this is my 2 cents worth.


----------



## Maclimius

After having used the MILCOTS for the duration of my unit's recce conversion, I have a few comments on its performance.

The skid plate works well. (For pulling it forward on snow out of a ditch with an LSVW, not backward to rip the skid plate off along with the rest of the undercarriage)

Visibility is great (If you're looking for contacts in the trees vs in the ditch 10 feet to your right)

Radios are in a pertinent place (Even better if you take out the CI and put a roll of gun tape in for your Timmy's cup)

The Weapons mounts are well placed (Unless you'd rather have an arm rest)

The rear seats allow good kit storage (God forbid you should try sitting on them while wearing Goretex)

The batteries last long (If you have the new mod in, or the old one that trickle drains randomly)

It has a good turning radius (For doing 20 point turns on a logging road on the side of a cliff)

Ok, all kidding aside now.

As was discussed before, this vehicle is meant as an adm vehicle (just like the ILTIS was supposed to be). As an adm vehicle it does actually perform its job quite well. You can fit an entire excercise's worth of rations for a recce troop for a weekend in the back of just one. That's a definate bonus over the ILTIS.


----------



## WOLO

I would have to beg to differ on this Admin veh terminology that has been assigned to the MilCot. If you read the SOR( statement of requirements) for the Milcot it should be almost as capable as the Iltis.  I can offer reasons why this particular veh was acquired but they are not guaranteed fact. A lot of them are second hand that have been confirmed from separate sources.  As for the warranty being voided by cross country that is a lot of paranoia floating around the upper echelon. As long as the veh isn't flagrantly abused it should be good, Sure, it was not built to be a pure off road veh like the LSVW or Iltis, but when you look at the off road milage in comparison to the on road milage, it certainly falls into the occasional off road usage class.


----------



## TCBF

I just read through the above thread, and as the campaign season is just about upon us, I want you all to do one thing if you sign for a Milverado:  Read the data plate that lists the Curb Weight and the GVW.

The last one I was in had this on the plate: GVW: Front: 2120, Rear: 1610, Total GVW: 3730
                                                             Curb: Front: 1998, Rear:  1403, Total Curb: 3401

The difference between GVW and  Curb is the capacity, which is in this case, 329kg.

As a comparison, my 1993 Honda Civic has a capacity of 395 kg, or 850 pounds.

So, if you load it up with a dual Ticks, four soldiers, rifles, webbing, rucks, kitbags, cots, a tent, the usual tools, and then some "cargo"...  you just might sail through a stop sign and murder somebody.

With a dual Ticks, EIS tools, Tent/stove/lantern, me/helmet/binos/ear defenders/jacket, but NO: webbing, ruck or other kit or Pax, I weighed a Milverado on the Hwy 14 scales 2 miles east of Wainwright.  I was 70 kg under GVW.  If I wanted to carry more, I would have needed my Civic...

Do NOT excede the GVW!

Tom


----------



## Zipper

So if these things are only to be used in mild off road, whats the point?

We used to beat the living Sh!t out of the iltis on exercise. In fact when I was made OC rover (taken out of the sabre and put in SHQ :crybaby
I would have to drive the thing full tilt after the man and pick him up in the middle of butt F nowhere at all times of the day. This took a hell of a toll on the thing (and me) and it had to be replaced twice.

As well, we used to take the ol' pick-ups cross country because the SSM would choose some of the most horrid ground to carry out a replenishment, or as a temporary hide. I seem to remember a few rain soaked ex's having to get a cougar (and later the Bison) in to tow the poor things out.

They take a beating no matter what anyone at HQ says. So you may as well kiss that warranty goodbye.


----------



## TCBF

It isn't just a warranty issue.  When you exceed the GVW, you are exceeding the safety parameters of the vehicle to the point where the handling and brakes may be pushing the envelope.  It then becomes a liability issue when someone dies.

Tom


----------



## Zipper

Oh sorry. no argument there. You CANNOT exceed the GVW if your smart. I'm just refering to earlier parts of the conversation about how well there going to operate in the field for us, or whether they will be another lemon.


----------



## TCBF

Probably as good  as the old 5/4 ton, or the old 1 Ton we used to augment our 3/4 ton fleet in the 70s.  I was chasing Leos with mine on Prarie Ram 04, and only got stuck when my diffs dug into the hard, flat centre of a trail the Leos made following a track uphill.  I also "High centred" on SAT 1.

So, two issues.

1. Low centre: solution?  Maybe lift kits and bigger tires.

2. No cargo capacity: solution?  Difficult to say.  This has gone to the LCMM guys to sort out.

Tom


----------



## TCBF

I sure do miss the old 3/4 ton.


Tom


----------



## Gunnerlove

I love the new line vehicles. It took mere moments before we nicknamed ours the "Trawler" or "The Tuna Boat".


----------



## Steel Badger

Haaving just been informed that the MILCOTs on issue to my unit have over-reached the sacrosanct lease determined milage limit and thus are not available for any further use....

I move that they be re-named  LUMPS....Limited Utility Militarized Pickups...


Seriously though, and consideration of the MILCOT as a vehicle MUST consider the lease requirements and the resulting impact on training...

Sarn' Majah, Why is the CQ driving a Honda civic?

Sorry Sah, the Milcot is over its milage and the LS is down again!


----------



## chrisf

TCBF said:
			
		

> I just read through the above thread, and as the campaign season is just about upon us, I want you all to do one thing if you sign for a Milverado:   Read the data plate that lists the Curb Weight and the GVW.
> 
> The last one I was in had this on the plate: GVW: Front: 2120, Rear: 1610, Total GVW: 3730
> Curb: Front: 1998, Rear:   1403, Total Curb: 3401
> 
> The difference between GVW and   Curb is the capacity, which is in this case, 329kg.
> 
> As a comparison, my 1993 Honda Civic has a capacity of 395 kg, or 850 pounds.
> 
> So, if you load it up with a dual Ticks, four soldiers, rifles, webbing, rucks, kitbags, cots, a tent, the usual tools, and then some "cargo"...   you just might sail through a stop sign and murder somebody.
> 
> With a dual Ticks, EIS tools, Tent/stove/lantern, me/helmet/binos/ear defenders/jacket, but NO: webbing, ruck or other kit or Pax, I weighed a Milverado on the Hwy 14 scales 2 miles east of Wainwright.   I was 70 kg under GVW.   If I wanted to carry more, I would have needed my Civic...
> 
> Do NOT excede the GVW!
> 
> Tom



Can anyone either confirm or deny this information? As it seems to be ridiculously low, but I don't know the specs myself... that being said, if they're true, the trucks are constantly over-loaded...

Just for comparison, I looked up at the specs on the Chev 1500 (1500, not the 1500HD), the GVWR is 7000lbs (3181 kgs), but the payload is listed as 2040lbs (927 kgs)...

Now, I freely admit I don't understand vehicles, and I'm apt to be confused, but still, if somone could explain, or clarify, I'd appreciate it.


----------



## TCBF

"I move that they be re-named  LUMPS....Limited Utility Militarized Pickups..."

HA!  Good line, Steel Badger!

Seeing as how CMTC will put a hundred or so O/C MILverados on BTE 05, I think I will STEAL your line and disseminate it copiously, if I may?

Silverado 2500 HD.  But, add a 24v sys with two more honkin' batteries, HD bumper, topper, rifle rack, mil lighting sys, HD bumper, dual commo instal, skid plates...

Now see where that cargo capacity went?


----------



## chrisf

I knew it was based on a heavier truck then the 1500, but I figured I'd go with the lightest truck just for a conservative comparison...

Still, the GVWR on a Chevy 2500HD is 9200lbs (4182 kgs) with a max pay-load of 4023 lbs (1829 kgs).

While certainly the add-on packages are heavy, it still blows my mind that they would weigh 1500 kgs. If you're right, it means the trucks are regularly over-loaded.


----------



## TCBF

The data plate on my MILCOTS said GVWR 3730.  Where did you get your data?


----------



## chrisf

It's the weight rating off the civillian Chev 2500 HD, from the chev website...

Which is why I'm not arguing with your weight rating, just questioning the data plate itself (I don't have access to a milcot to check it myself, and probably won't for a few months  ).

If it's a a a mil-cots purchase, then it would stand to reason that it should have the same ratings as the cots version. Which is why I'm saying it seems odd.


----------



## TCBF

Hmmmmnnnnn....

I brought this up last fall.  During SAT 2, I read the data plate.  I then started to add up the weights of all of the Observer/Controller gear (CUBIC had it in their handbbok) and I started to think: WTF?

So I brought this up at a CMTC briefing before Christmas and was directed to weigh the sucker and get back to the CMTC Log O.  Which I did.  We are waiting for LCMM to get back to us.

Best case scenario:  LCMM says 'wrong data plate'.

Worst case scenario... We bought a 3730kg portable radio.


----------



## WOLO

Steel Badger said:
			
		

> Haaving just been informed that the MILCOTs on issue to my unit have over-reached the sacrosanct lease determined milage limit and thus are not available for any further use....
> 
> I move that they be re-named   LUMPS....Limited Utility Militarized Pickups...
> 
> 
> Seriously though, and consideration of the MILCOT as a vehicle MUST consider the lease requirements and the resulting impact on training...
> 
> Sarn' Majah, Why is the CQ driving a Honda civic?
> 
> Sorry Sah, the Milcot is over its milage and the LS is down again!



What makes you think they are leased??? The milage restriction was put on the veh by command because they want to try and make them last 10 years...


----------



## axeman

man there was nothing like that with the cucv's  and  5/4 tons  whats it all coming to when the mileage gets resricted  on a mil veh ?


----------



## TCBF

What mileage restriction are you talking about?


----------



## TCBF

GVWR is 4173 kg.  As per the Data summary, and the decal applied low on the driver's door end.  Curb Weight is 3401 kg.


----------



## Thompson_JM

TCBF said:
			
		

> What mileage restriction are you talking about?



Apparently we cant go over 7000kms a year due to the fact that they are leased veh...


----------



## Steel Badger

Sorry to stir the pot and leave it to simmer...

I will check the sit out and report back



Cheers


----------



## Thompson_JM

well Apparently their are no mileage restrictions and the vehicle is not a lease but is owned outright by DND. 

TCBF Pm'ed these details earlier today and I just thought I'd share.

Cheers
  Josh


----------



## TCBF

Anyone want any mods to the Milverado - let me know.

Tom


----------



## KevinB

Kev's ideal MILCOT.
Ford entry for the COMBATT (Comercially Based Tactical Truck)


----------



## Zipper

Why do I get the feeling that the technicals in Africa were not that far off? Take truck, mount weapons, instant firepower...


----------



## Devlin

Cpl Thompson said:
			
		

> Apparently we cant go over 7000kms a year due to the fact that they are leased veh...



I believe the correct number is 8000km per year though I have heard 7000km as well. This is not because they are leased, the reason I was given by my TN Sgt. was that DND wants these things to be a round for a while (How long was the Iltis around?) and they don't want to burn up all the mileage for fear of reprisals from the delaerships that service them.

Wouldn't be a bad truck if it had some better tires like say BF Goodrich All Terrain KO's. Nice enough ride on the paved stuff and agressive enough for playing in the mud. Even a set of Mud Terrains would be better than what's on the truck now. 

Not sure if any of you have experienced the light show the truck will put on if it's computer is messed up like one of the ones in my unit. What I have seen happen while driving down the highway at 90km/h (speedometer drops sown to zero even though your moving, gear indicator light goes out, radio dies, all idiot lights on the dash blink off and on at random) very tactical guys. Have brought it into the dealer a number of times and they can't locate the problem.

Any advice would be helpful (aside from the drive it off the nearest cliff)


----------



## TCBF

Light show: Turn off veh, restart veh, speedo and guages should work, repeat as necessary.

Km Restrictions:  There is NO fleet km restrictions on this veh.  Please stop spreading urban myths, or PM me with written ref, memos, or documetation AUTHORIZING any km restrictions.

Pls note that documentation does NOT include the phrases "I heard that..", "I was told that..." or "There are those who believe that...  ."

Tom


----------



## Devlin

TCBF said:
			
		

> Pls note that documentation does NOT include the phrases "I heard that..", "I was told that..." or "There are those who believe that...   ."
> 
> Tom



Point taken Tom, if I can get in writing I will post it for all the world to see.


----------

