# Would this situation work out?



## SSoeiro (11 Oct 2012)

So I just have a quick scenario I want to quickly run by you knowledgeable members and I want to see if it will work out for me. 

I want to join the Forces Navy, but I also want to take advantage of the college program they offer for new recruits.

If I am reading this correctly, for a few select trades (don't worry about what particular trade now; for now my choice wold be the Marine Engineer, but I am not sure that trade will be in demand and still in the reimbursement for education program when the time comes to enroll in the navy), there is a reimbursement program for education.

The requirements, if I am reading this correctly; are simple. Simply to join an "in demand" trade, and to serve for two months for every one month of "free" (paid for) education. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

I am currently situated in Ontario, in highschool (11th grade), yet I want to go to college in British Columbia. (Not sure if the change in province will affect anything, so I decided to mention it)

I am hoping the whole scenario goes like this:

1. Graduate highschool at age 17 in June.
2. Enroll in Navy in August of the summer after graduating highschool. When enrolling, make sure to apply for the education program and for desired trade.
3. September rolls around and attend college in BC for 8 months, with a part-time job on the side. (so 8 months of college are completed with 0 months of navy service completed. I have, so far, 16 months to do.)
4. The summer of college comes around and I work for 4 months in the navy (so I got 8 months of education now and 4 months of service.)
5. September comes around yet again, I repeat what I did for the first year of college. (16 months of education now. 4 months of service.)
6. Again, the summer goes to the navy. (16 months of education. 8 months of service.
7. I will attend on final year of college, again, with a part time job on the side. (24 months of educated completed and reimbursed for. 8 months of service so far.
8. Summer comes around and I work 4 months in the summer. So I have a total of 24 months of schooling done and 12 months of service done. 
9. Work in the navy for 3 more years (36 months; aka, compensating for the 18 months of schooling left over after all the summer months in the navy)
10. Respectfully resign from the Navy and continue civilian life.

So, if I'm reading this all correctly. The situation I am trying to go for SHOULD work out fine? Yes? Also, I am to consistently get full pay even when I am in college and not working actively in the navy, yes? 

Sorry for such a complicated question, but it is very important to me. If anyone needs any clarification on anything, just ask me and I'll be happy to clarify. 

Thank you all!


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## GeorgeD (11 Oct 2012)

SSoeiro said:
			
		

> So I just have a quick scenario I want to quickly run by you knowledgeable members and I want to see if it will work out for me.
> 
> I want to join the Forces Navy, but I also want to take advantage of the college program they offer for new recruits.
> 
> ...


1) You need parental permission before age 18.
2) Enrolment in the CF does not happen on your schedule, might take a month or it might take a year.
3) You will be paid if you are working full-time therefore no need to work part-time in a civilian job. Most likely in the summer you will be expected to do BMQ and once done BMQ the next summer if you are still in school General Duties in a nearby unit. Also, the whole calculation of school v. time served is irrelevant because you will most likely get a basic contract, my initial contract was 5 years while others enrolled in the same program signed a 6 year contract.
4) As I mentioned above, the initial contract will be a set period of time most likely around 5 years if you are doing school at the CF's expense and sometimes more.
5) Same as above.
6) Same as above.
7) Same as above.
8) Initial contract does not need to equal the 1 month of school 2 months of work.
9) This program is not intended to give you "free" education, but is meant to give you an education to be employable in the trade you were sworn in, 3 years is most likely not even close to covering what the CF has invested in you as for much of the time you will be on courses and thus not fully employed.
10)Trying to screw the system?

If I am reading this correctly, you want to sign up for some "free" education, take up a position from someone who is interested in making the military their career. If you have no interest in serving past the initial contract don't sign up for the college education plan as the CF will not recover their investment of your 3 years of education for far longer than the 36 months of contract and you would in fact be stealing a position from a deserving person  as well as stealing from the CF in the form of a substantial investment for limited employment in return.


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## SSoeiro (11 Oct 2012)

GD said:
			
		

> 1) You need parental permission before age 18.
> 2) Enrolment in the CF does not happen on your schedule, might take a month or it might take a year.
> 3) You will be paid if you are working full-time therefore no need to work part-time in a civilian job. Most likely in the summer you will be expected to do BMQ and once done BMQ the next summer if you are still in school General Duties in a nearby unit. Also, the whole calculation of school v. time served is irrelevant because you will most likely get a basic contract, my initial contract was 5 years while others enrolled in the same program signed a 6 year contract.
> 4) As I mentioned above, the initial contract will be a set period of time most likely around 5 years if you are doing school at the CF's expense and sometimes more.
> ...



1) Yes that is okay, no problems there. Family is aboard.
2) Ah I see, so the earlier the better I suppose.
3) If the time worked vs time paid is irrelevant; why do they even supply the figure on the website?
4-7) Yes of course, this is quite surprising mostly due to the fact the information on the website supplies a different figure.
8) I suppose this would be the same as the above answer.
9) I did not mean to disrespect what the CF would give me in this situation. I am simply using the supplied factor to see what I would have to work in order to compensate; again, with the figure supplied. 
10) Sorry if it seems that way, that is not what I am intending.

I am not trying to pull a fast one on the Forces; I am not just in it for the education, as if I were, this would be a very inefficient way of going about it. I do genuinely want to go to the military for the experience, for personal reasons, an for "family" reasons. I am not trying to take a career from anyone who genuinely wants one, and, to my understanding (not fact, just what I am told), there is a shortage of people in the Canadian military, so to my understanding, it would be okay if I were to go to the military for a limited time. I am not looking at the military as a "means to pay for my education", as like I said before, that's a very inefficient route of going about it. I am in it for many reasons, the education is a very very nice bonus though that I definitely want to take advantage of if it is offered.


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## GeorgeD (11 Oct 2012)

The time worked v. time paid does not always add up to the 1 v. 2 policy, for me it does not add up as my contract is shorter, while for others it is more than 2 v. 1 so you should probably take it as a general guideline as you might get more than that in a contract offer.

The CF does not get a return on investment in the initial contract, for a Pte (1) to do 3 years in school, it would take over $100,000 and that is just a lowball figure as I am not accounting for promotions and allowances.

It's great that you want to serve, but the NCMSEP is intended for members looking for a career as I mentioned above it is expensive to educate and train a member as a result doing 36 months in the navy after completing your education will not even come close to recovering the cost of your education. It is not cost effective for the CF to pay for your education in order to gain only 36 months of service from you in return and if you doubt that talk to a local recruiter.


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## JorgSlice (11 Oct 2012)

SSoeiro said:
			
		

> 1) Yes that is okay, no problems there. Family is aboard.
> 2) Ah I see, so the earlier the better I suppose.
> 3) If the time worked vs time paid is irrelevant; why do they even supply the figure on the website?
> 4-7) Yes of course, this is quite surprising mostly due to the fact the information on the website supplies a different figure.
> ...



Ask yourself: Could you see yourself in the Canadian Forces for 10, 15, 20 years? If no, don't bother. As echoed, NCMSEP is for long term career people. Your #10 on the first post basically summarized your post that you want to get your education via NCMSEP, do your 3 or 5 year Initial Engagement (whatever the trade requirement is) and then quit and go work in a civilian occupation. Now here you're saying you're not in it just for the education and that you want to serve long-term/make it a career, but then you go and say "There is a shortage of people.... blah blah... would be okay to be in for limited period." No, there's actually limited positions and too many applicants; so the very few people that do get a job offer, better be ones looking to serve 10-20 years. 

NCMSEP isn't just something you can roll off the street and "Take advantage of" and then leave the military.


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## aesop081 (11 Oct 2012)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> If no, don't bother.



I'm sorry but if the CF wanted everyone to stay for 25 years as a requirement, the initial contract was for 25 years. There's nothing wrong with someone doing their obligatory service and leaving.



> NCMSEP is for long term career people.



That's not the opinion of the CF. If it was, the terms of service would be quite different.



> NCMSEP isn't just something you can roll off the street and "Take advantage of" and then leave the military.



Again, this is nothing more than your opinion. The OP is misinformed on obligatory service but, none the less, if he/she wants to leave the forces as soon as it is done, then that is fine, the CF allows it.


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## chrisf (11 Oct 2012)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> As echoed, NCMSEP is for long term career people.



No, it's to get people qualified to fill a position. 

It sounds great on the recruiting posters when they say "paid education", but it's still just an NCM getting their trade qualification, it just happens the requirement can be filled by training from a civillian institution.

The added bonus is those CF qualifications come with directly equivillent civillian training.

There's nothing wrong with serving, doing a good job, and plans for another career when you're done. 

In fact, if you don't have an exit strategy for when it comes time to go, there's somthing wrong with that.

Unless you're somone who got in at 16, got a CRA waiver, got out with 39 years at age 65, and then started with the rangers as a hobby, you're really not in any position to look down on somone for fufilling the obligations of their contract.


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## GeorgeD (11 Oct 2012)

The whole point of the program is to qualify people but at the same time retain them for longer as the 3 year education is unsustainable if the return is 18-36 months of employment followed by release. If I were to release at the end of my initial contract I would have given the CF roughly 18 months of service in my trade while the rest of the 5 year contract was spend in college, trade courses or doing GD's in local units. That would mean that the CF spend well over 200,000 for18 months of service in a unit.


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## chrisf (11 Oct 2012)

How much do you think they spend/don't spend on training everyone else?


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## Jarnhamar (11 Oct 2012)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> Ask yourself: Could you see yourself in the Canadian Forces for 10, 15, 20 years? If no, don't bother. As echoed, NCMSEP is for long term career people. Your #10 on the first post basically summarized your post that you want to get your education via NCMSEP, do your 3 or 5 year Initial Engagement (whatever the trade requirement is) and then quit and go work in a civilian occupation. Now here you're saying you're not in it just for the education and that you want to serve long-term/make it a career, but then you go and say "There is a shortage of people.... blah blah... would be okay to be in for limited period." No, there's actually limited positions and too many applicants; so the very few people that do get a job offer, better be ones looking to serve 10-20 years.
> 
> NCMSEP isn't just something you can roll off the street and "Take advantage of" and then leave the military.



Think you need to gear down use your signals and change lanes.


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## GeorgeD (11 Oct 2012)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> How much do you think they spend/don't spend on training everyone else?


 It most likely is not equal to 3 years of salary, cost of 6 semesters, thousands of dollars worth of books and supplies as well as BMQ and at least one maybe two summers of work not related to your field and this is before the member sets foot in a trade course in a military base. The fact is if I were doing POET in Kingston the cost would be significantly lower as would the return on investment.


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## SupersonicMax (11 Oct 2012)

GD said:
			
		

> It most likely is not equal to 3 years of salary, cost of 6 semesters, thousands of dollars worth of books and supplies as well as BMQ and at least one maybe two summers of work not related to your field and this is before the member sets foot in a trade course in a military base. The fact is if I were doing POET in Kingston the cost would be significantly lower as would the return on investment.



My training, by many estimates, is worth around 5 M$, yet I would be allowed (and some people do) to leave 5 years after being operationally qualified.  

There is nothing wrong with serving obligatory service then leaving.  Otherwise, the CF would put more restrictive terms to the deal.  

The fact that your contract is 5 years doesn't change a thing on your obligatory service.


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## GeorgeD (12 Oct 2012)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> My training, by many estimates, is worth around 5 M$, yet I would be allowed (and some people do) to leave 5 years after being operationally qualified.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with serving obligatory service then leaving.  Otherwise, the CF would put more restrictive terms to the deal.
> 
> The fact that your contract is 5 years doesn't change a thing on your obligatory service.


If a large number of NCMSEP members were to release upon finishing the initial engagement the likely outcome would be the shutting down of the program.

And in my case which is similar to a number of other people, it is not 5 years after being operationally qualified, but 5 years including school which means that of those 5 years I am in school for 3 years, and another 6 months to a year on various CF courses which leaves me with 12-18 months to be operationally qualified. Adding up the cost of my education and training I would realistically cost the CF upwards to 17,000 for every month I do the job if I were to release at the end of my initial contract. There are a number of people who completed their 3 year program and are sitting in various units avoiding  BMQ and trade courses as if they are the plague, they run down the contract and either release with no service in their trade or several months on the job. 

Just because they can should not mean that we should encourage them to take trades through such programs knowing that the trade, the element and the CF in General are getting screwed over in the process because somebody decided that 18 months was enough of a return on the $100,000-$250,000 of investment the CF made.


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