# Griffon Helicopters, INGRESS and Kandahar [Udate: Deployment officially announced!]



## GAP

GRIFFONS ONE STEP CLOSER TO KANDAHAR  
Article Link

The Griffons are one step closer to their deployment to Afghanistan as well as in support of 2010 Olympic security.

This came in from the government the other day (I edited it for space):

“Christian Paradis, Minister of Public Works and Government Services Canada and Peter MacKay, Minister of National Defence announced the government has awarded a contract to L-3 Wescam Inc., Burlington, Ontario, for an electro-optical and infrared sensor system to be installed on the CH-146 Griffon helicopter. This procurement has a value, including options, of $25.9 million.

The equipment procured through this project will enable the Griffon helicopter with the capability to provide escort and surveillance support to land operations.

Known as the Interoperable Griffon Reconnaissance Escort Surveillance System (INGRESS), the project involves the procurement of a common electro-optical/infrared sensor system that can be installed on the CH-146 Griffon along with equipment that will allow for the operation of the sensor for Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR) and Escort tasks. A formal Request for Proposal (RFP) for INGRESS was issued on MERX, the government's electronic tendering service, on April 16, 2008. The RFP closed on May 23, 2008. The evaluation of bids was concluded on June 2, 2008.”

So…..I’m told the INGRESS project will acquire 19 electro-optical/infra-red sensor systems to be installed on the helicopters. The project will also see the procurement of a door-mounted gun system, most likely a mini-gun.

“This will give the Griffon a sensor capability for domestic operations and a sensor and weapons capability for force protection, for ground mobility and tactical air mobility,” Canadian Air Force spokesman Major Jim Hutcheson said a few months ago.

Sixty-four Griffons would be modified to carry the equipment.

The first delivery of the systems would be in November. The final delivery would be by the summer of next year. Bell Helicopter in Mirabel would be installing the systems on board the Griffons. 

The sensors would be configured to allow for easy installation and removal and the modification of existing Griffon avionics would not be required.

The program would produce two types of upgraded Griffons, according to Hutcheson. There would be the intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance configuration and an escort configuration Griffon. Both would use a common EO/IR sensor.

The ISR configuration will be able to detect, recognize and identify objects as small in size as a human being and transmit video imagery via a data link. A laser system will also be available for ranging and marking.

The escort configuration would consist of cockpit-mounted sensor controls, imagery and a multi-functional digital moving map display but would not include a data link. Up to four sensor packages for the ISR configuration will be procured and up to 15 packages for the escort configuration will be required.

The project is also calling for a door-mounted crew-served weapon for the escort configuration. 

The Air Force is considering sending some of the modified Griffons to Afghanistan to accompany the Chinook helicopters it hopes to acquire at some point.

 “The modified Griffon, the INGRESS, would be eligible to go to Afghanistan sometime after 2009 when the Chinooks would go,” Hutcheson said.
More on link

INGRESS: New Eyes for Canada’s Griffon Helicopters
15-Jul-2008 14:17 EDT
Article Link

In December 2005, “Canada Purchases $200M in Equipment for Operation ARCHER in Afghanistan” noted the issues created by Canada’s complete lack of integrated in-theater helicopter support. Worse, the Canadian Forces faced an equally complete lack of options. Canada had never operated attack helicopters, so there were none to be had. Its heavy lift CH-47s had been sold to the Dutch in 1991, and the program to belatedly replace them cannot deliver before 2011-2012. The navy’s Sea King fleet was dangerously old and needed for maritime roles, and their replacement CH-148 Cyclones/H-92 Superhawks have yet to be delivered. New CH-149 Cormorant/EH101 search-and-rescue helicopters are non-military versions that are needed along Canada’s huge coastlines, and the helicopters have encountered serious and long-running reliability issues during their short lifetimes. Finally, other Army helicopters like the CH-146 Griffon/ Bell 412 lacked the carrying capacity required to operate as true utility helicopters in Afghanistan’s performance-sapping high altitudes and hot temperatures.

Outside organizations like the Canadian-American Strategic Review (CASR) had looked at this problem, and proposed a pair of solutions. One option involved buying, leasing, or trading for Mi-17 helicopters used by Afghanistan’s air force and by several NATO countries. Faced with a Parliamentary threat of forced withdrawal unless it produced transport helicopters in a timely manner, the Canadian government finally signed a contract in April 2008 to buy 6 used CH-47Ds instead, and have them delivered by 2009. The other CASR proposal looked at the Bell 412’s strengths and limitations. It argued that CH-146 Griffons could be turned into armed reconnaissance helicopters that would emulate the US Marines’ UH-1Ns by providing overwatch, escorting transport helicopters, and even performing limited casualty-evacuation duties.

Now, a program called INGRESS is taking the first steps along very similar lines, in order to prepare Canada’s Griffons for front-line deployment…

The Interoperable Griffon Reconnaissance Escort Surveillance System program aimed to install surveillance and targeting turrets in Canada’s CH-146 Griffons, “along with equipment that will allow for the operation of the sensor for Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR) and Escort tasks.” 

INGRESS was let as a formal RFP on Canada’s MERX system in April 2008. Bids closed on May 23/08, and on July 14/08, the Canadian government announced that L-3 Wescam Inc. in Burlington, Ontario, Canada had won a C$ 25.9 million (about $25.8 million, includes value-added tax) contract.
More on link


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## Sub_Guy

So will the FE be operating the new kit?


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## Zoomie

From what I read - it looks like the EO/IR gear will be accessed up front.  The crew-served weapon will continue to be manned from the back (i.e. FE or GIB)


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## Scoobie Newbie

As much as I would love to see our guys over there flying providing escort to Chinooks,

I think I would prefer Apache's with much more armament.  I don't know how they compare in regards to distance, crew training in this aspect, etc so I won't comment on that.

(written this way to avoid my typical one liners)


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## OldSolduer

Can I be a GIB??? sounds like fun.


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## The Bread Guy

GAP said:
			
		

> (....)
> 
> This came in from the government the other day (I edited it for space):
> 
> (....)



And here's the rest of the news release.......

*Government of Canada Invests in Equipment for the Forces, Contract Awarded for Surveillance System*

For immediate release

GATINEAU, Quebec, July 14, 2008 — The Honourable Christian Paradis, Minister of Public Works and Government Services Canada and Secretary of State (Agriculture), and the Honourable Peter Gordon MacKay, Minister of National Defence and Minister of the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, today announced the Government has awarded a contract to L-3 Wescam Inc., Burlington, Ontario, for an electro-optical and infrared sensor system to be installed on the CH-146 Griffon helicopter. This procurement has a value, including options, of $25.9 million, including G.S.T.

“This contract will provide the Canadian Forces with an excellent surveillance system, while ensuring best value for Canadian taxpayers,” said Minister Paradis. “The equipment procured through this project will enable the Griffon helicopter with the capability to provide escort and surveillance support to land operations.”

"The government is committed to providing the men and women of the Canadian Forces with the best equipment," said Minister MacKay. "This system will ensure continued success on missions both in Canada and abroad, thereby safeguarding the rights and freedoms enjoyed by all Canadians."

Known as the Interoperable Griffon Reconnaissance Escort Surveillance System (INGRESS), the project involves the procurement of a common electro-optical/infrared sensor system that can be installed on the CH-146 Griffon along with equipment that will allow for the operation of the sensor for Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR) and Escort tasks.

A formal Request for Proposal (RFP) for INGRESS was issued on MERX™, the government’s electronic tendering service, on April 16, 2008. The RFP closed on May 23, 2008. The evaluation of bids was concluded on June 2, 2008, in accordance with the plan detailed in the RFP to determine the winning bidder.

- 30 -


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## armoured recce man

from casr....http://www.sfu.ca/casr/doc-acan-ch146-fastfin.htm

cheers


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## greentoblue

According to today's news (http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/War_Terror/2008/07/26/6272556-cp.html) "Canada may expand its troop commitment in Afghanistan by almost 10 per cent in order to service the helicopters about to be deployed to the region, Foreign Affairs Minister David Emerson *indicated * Saturday. "  Note that the writer is speculating: He *appeared * to be referring to the half-dozen helicopters Canada expects to have in place by February."

It was previously reported (can't find the link) that if the Chinook purchase happens then the Griffons would go to act as escort aircraft.


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## mikhar

I have thought about this for a while and do not understand why Canada has not thought of obtaining any Apache helicopters.?  Why is is that we only have transport helicopters and only now are upgrading the Griffen to do escort duty with new targeting systems.  Canada needs choppers that can protect our troops and other helicopters doing the job of transport.

I think that 40-50 of the Apache Longbow would do the job and some of them could be stationed up in the North Artic where the Dutch so nicly stuck their flag and said this is our land (by the way are they still there.?) and we will defend it.

If we had Apache's up there then it never would have happened.


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## aesop081

mikhar said:
			
		

> I have thought about this for a while and do not understand why Canada has not thought of obtaining any Apache helicopters.?



We've had this discussion on here before, look it up.



> in the North Artic where the Dutch so nicly stuck their flag and said this is our land (by the way are they still there.?) and we will defend it.



That was Denmark not the Dutch, look it up.

While the AH-64D would be very nice, i hardly think that Longbow (thats the millimetric radar that sits on top of the rotor mast) is not all that required in our context.


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## Ex-Dragoon

You will see there are plenty of threads regarding the pros and cons of various helicopter gunships including the Apache already.

Milnet.ca Staff


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## Strike

Oh, and it's Griffon, not Griffen.  I'm a bit of a stickler when it comes to the name of my aircraft.


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## aesop081

Strike said:
			
		

> I'm a bit of a stickler when it comes to the name of my aircraft.



Dont you fly a BD3D now ?

 ;D


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## Strike

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Dont you fly a BD3D now ?
> 
> ;D



Still my aircraft though.    ;D


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## Sf2

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=2813


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## Garett

I don't know the difference in power between the Griffon and Kiowa Warrior, but from what I've read they're doing pretty well in Iraq and Afghanistan. This should be interesting to see. Honestly, its nice to see the Air Force in the game. Hopefully the pilots know what they're getting themselves into.


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## Nfld Sapper

OH-58D Kiowa Warrior
General characteristics

Crew: 2 pilots 
Length: 40 ft 8 in (12.39 m) 
Rotor diameter: 35 ft 0 in (10.67 m) 
Height: 7 ft 6 in (2.29 m) 
Empty weight: 3,290 lb (1,490 kg) 
Max takeoff weight: 5,200 lb (2,358 kg) 
Powerplant: 1× Rolls-Royce T703-AD-700A or 250-C30R/3 turboshaft, 650 eshp (485 kW) 
Fuel capacity: 110 US gal (454 L) 

Performance
Maximum speed: 138 mph (222 km/h) 
Cruise speed: 125 mph (201 km/h) 
Range: 345 mi (556 km) 
Service ceiling 20,500 ft (6,250 m) 
Rate of climb: 1,615 ft/min (8.2 m/s) 

CH-146 Griffon
General characteristics

Crew: Three (pilot, co-pilot & flight engineer) 
Capacity: 12 troops or 6 stretchers 
Length: 17.1 m (56 ft 1 in) 
Rotor diameter: 14 m (45 ft 11 in) 
Height: 4.6 m (15 ft 1 in) 
Max takeoff weight: 5,355 kg (11,900 lb) 
Powerplant: 2× Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6T-3D turboshaft engine, 900 shp (671 kW) each

Performance
Maximum speed: 260 km/h (139 knots, 160 mph) 
Cruise speed: 220 km/h (118 knots, 136 mph) 
Range: 656 km (354 nm, 405 mi)


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## GAP

Ottawa to send attack helicopters to Afghanistan
Updated Wed. Nov. 26 2008 3:47 PM ET The Canadian Press
Article Link

OTTAWA -- Defence Minister Peter MacKay told the House of Commons today that eight specially modified CH-146 Griffon helicopters will be sent to Kandahar in the new year to fly escort for the new CH-47 Chinook transport choppers. 

The move represents an about-face for the Defence Department, which had asked NATO allies to fill that role. 

The air force has wanted to send Griffons overseas since the start of the mission in 2006, but Gen. Rick Hillier, the former chief of defence staff, said no. 

A small number of Griffon light utility helicopters have been adapted to carry missiles, a machine-gun and advanced sensors. 

Big transport helicopters, such as the Chinook, rarely operate in combat zones without attack helicopters to protect them against ground fire. 
More on link


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## aesop081

Garett said:
			
		

> its nice to see the Air Force in the game.



We weren't before ?



> Hopefully the pilots know what they're getting themselves into.



Why wouldnt they ?


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## Welshy

> Canada will arm Griffons to protect transport choppers in Afghanistan
> Last Updated: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 | 6:10 PM ET Comments6Recommend4
> CBC News
> 
> Specially modified helicopter gunships will escort Canada's new Chinook transport helicopters on operations in Afghanistan when they come into service in the new year, Defence Minister Peter MacKay said Wednesday.
> 
> The eight specially modified CH-146 Griffon utility helicopters will be equipped with large machine guns and sensors.
> 
> They will escort and protect six new CH-47 Chinooks, heavy-lift choppers already stationed at the Kandahar airfield.
> 
> "This is going to give us increased … aerial capacity, it will also save lives," MacKay said.
> 
> "If we have people not traveling on roads, being able to get to forward operating bases and other parts outside the wire, this is absolutely going to impact on our operational ability in theatre."
> 
> Big transport helicopters such as Chinooks are vulnerable to attack by ground fire and rocket-propelled grenades when operating in war zones and usually travel with smaller, armed cousins along for protection.
> 
> The military didn't indicate whether the Griffons will be outfitted with missiles, or if they'll be limited to an escort role.
> 
> "[The helicopters] can be used for other purposes as well, but that's its primary purpose," MacKay said.
> 
> Some, however, have raised concerns the Griffons could be used to launch aerial attacks.
> 
> Afghan President Hamid Karzai has repeatedly decried NATO's use of aerial bombings because of the high risk of civilian casualties, saying as recently as yesterday that such attacks by international military forces must end.
> 
> Liberal MP Ujjal Dosanjh also expressed concern Wednesday, calling on the military to rule out any attack role for the new choppers.
> 
> "We need to put absolute restrictions on these escort helicopters…they cannot be used for attack purposes. They should be purely for defensive purposes, for escorting," he said.
> 
> As many as 250 more Canadian troops will be sent to Afghanistan to maintain and fly the Griffons.
> 
> Previously, the Defence Department was planning to ask other NATO forces to fill the protection role for the transport helicopters, which cost $282 million.
> 
> The previous chief of defence staff, Gen. Rick Hillier, had rejected a role for the Griffons in Afghanistan, saying they didn't perform well in the hot and high-altitude environment.
> 
> The air force has long wanted to send the Griffons into battle, however.
> 
> So far, they have been used for transport, reconnaissance and rescue during the Saguenay and Winnipeg floods, the Quebec ice storm and international relief operations in Honduras and Haiti.
> 
> Hillier retired from his post in July and was replaced by Gen. Walter Natynczyk.



Its a good day for tac hel.


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## Garett

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> We weren't before ?
> 
> Why wouldnt they ?



Not that game and we (Army) didn't really know in 2005.


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## Garett

Check out this wicked-good article by Mike Yon on Kiowas in Iraq. Hopefully the Griffons are as successful or more. 

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/guitar-heroes.htm


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## Greymatters

Garett said:
			
		

> Honestly, its nice to see the Air Force in the game. Hopefully the pilots know what they're getting themselves into.



Unfortunately, pilots dont get to choose what 'game' they can participate in even though many I knew were eager to be involved...


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## medaid

As silly as this may sound... Can someone who's driving those whirly birds PLEASE play Ride of The Valkeryie as they arrive on station in Afghanistan? I think it'll be a real morale booster.


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## armoured recce man

there it is....

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/11/26/griffon-chinook-afghanistan.html


ouaaaaa


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## Walt

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Medtech,

I agree.......that would be awesome.

_Kilgore: "We'll come in low out of the rising sun and about a mile out we'll put on the music." 

Lance: "Music?" 

Kilgore: Yah. I use Wagner.  It scares the hell out of the ********."   _


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## drunknsubmrnr

Timmy don't surf?


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## PuckChaser

MedTech said:
			
		

> As silly as this may sound... Can someone who's driving those whirly birds PLEASE play Ride of The Valkeryie as they arrive on station in Afghanistan? I think it'll be a real morale booster.



That's my reserve squadron's march. We're cool like that.


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## rampage800

Good for the Griffon guys, its a good task. Wish maybe they went with a forward firing gun though instead of in the door. Maybe put rockets on the other side and they'd have something similiar to the Kiowa Warrior (which is arguably more feared in TFA by the bad guys than the 64s and Cobras) but can carry a little more. Still........good to see them being pushed in.


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## Strike

I am sooo happy!  It means more work for me on the deployment, but I am so happy!  I am drinking tonight!


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## Eye In The Sky

The media is referring to these as "attack helicopters" ?

When I think AH, I think of Cobra, Apache's and Havoc and Hinds, etc.


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## Old Sweat

Strike,

You and Duey and Loachman and all the rest of you aviators, we do (did?) appreciate your efforts. Show us what you can do.

Per Ardua Ad Astra

Sweatie


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## Strike

This certainly explains why G2G has been conspicuously quiet on the subject.   ;D


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## Strike

MedTech said:
			
		

> As silly as this may sound... Can someone who's driving those whirly birds PLEASE play Ride of The Valkeryie as they arrive on station in Afghanistan? I think it'll be a real morale booster.



Looking to download it onto my iPod as we speak.   ;D


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## Occam

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> The media is referring to these as "attack helicopters" ?
> 
> When I think AH, I think of Cobra, Apache's and Havoc and Hinds, etc.



I was thinking the same thing.  Using that line of reasoning, we could just slap a 16" gun on an MCDV and call it a battleship.   ;D


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## SupersonicMax

Garett said:
			
		

> Honestly, its nice to see the Air Force in the game. Hopefully the pilots know what they're getting themselves into.



Hercs, C-17s flying in and out every days, Chinooks Pilots over there are we speak, FAC with troops on the ground, aren't they Air Force??

You know, when we fly these things in the canadian skies, we train for that kind of thing.  It's not just a game.


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## Strike

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Hercs, C-17s flying in and out every days, Chinooks Pilots over there are we speak, FAC with troops on the ground, aren't they Air Force??
> 
> You know, when we fly these things in the canadian skies, we train for that kind of thing.  It's not just a game.



Hey!  What about the UAVs?  ;D *Runs and ducks for cover awaiting Loachman's volley of hate*


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## SupersonicMax

Strike said:
			
		

> Hey!  What about the UAVs?



I refuse to believe that such evil machines exists   We will always NEED a pilot IN the aircraft right?....  Right???


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## Snafu-Bar

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I refuse to believe that such evil machines exists   We will always NEED a pilot IN the aircraft right?....  Right???



 Mr Bill will be glad to serve as a pilot in the UAV squadron ;D , Just don't blame him for all the mishaps and splattered plastercine everywhere.

Cheers


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## Loachman

Strike said:
			
		

> Hey!  What about the UAVs?  ;D *Runs and ducks for cover awaiting Loachman's volley of hate*



Unless you had something to do with their acquisition of which I'm unaware, you have no need of running and ducking.

Besides, I don't hate them. They're not worthy of hate.

I _despise_ them.

Any chance that you can see my old buddy Herm before you leave and tell him that I *have* to get in on this?


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## catalyst

Can I get a tour of a griffon while I'm there?

I'll buy you timmies!

- and back to your regular scheduled thread.


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## Cleared Hot

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Hercs, C-17s flying in and out every days, Chinooks Pilots over there are we speak, FAC with troops on the ground, aren't they Air Force??



Yes there are a couple of Air Force FACs with each roto but they are in the TACP and very seldom leave the wire (with one or two exceptions strictly personality based).  Unlike in the U.S., the FACs "with the troops on the ground" are all Army and usually Gunners.


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## Nfld Sapper

News Release
Canada Increases Helicopter Capabilities in Afghanistan
NR - 08.086 - November 26, 2008

Ottawa, Ontario – The Honourable Peter Gordon MacKay, Minister of National Defence and Minister for the Atlantic Gateway, today announced that eight CH-146 Griffon helicopters will be deployed to Afghanistan in early 2009 as part of the Joint Task Force Afghanistan (JTFA) – Air Wing. The helicopters, with crews from 408 Tactical Helicopter Squadron based in Edmonton, Alberta, will act as escort aircraft for the recently acquired CH-147 D Chinook helicopters. The deployment of the Griffon helicopters directly supports Canada’s commitment to meet the conditions set forth by the Independent Panel on Canada’s Future Role in Afghanistan.

“The deployment of the Griffons in conjunction with the Chinooks displays our commitment to the men and women of the Canadian Forces (CF) while ensuring the security and effectiveness of the mission,” said Minister MacKay. “We are proud of the work completed by all government departments to meet the February 2009 conditions established by the parliamentary motion.”

The Air Wing will be composed of CH-147 D Chinook medium - to heavy - lift helicopters, Heron Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAV) and CH-146 Griffon helicopters.

The transportation capability provided by the CH-147 D Chinook helicopters, the escort capabilities of the CH-146 Griffon helicopter and the intelligence surveillance and reconnaissance provided by the Heron UAV will contribute to the reduction of risk to Canadian troops and government employees from ambushes, land mines and improvised explosive devices. These assets will all be deployed to Afghanistan by February 2009.

This deployment is an important enabler to help Canada achieve the benchmarks it has set for the six priority areas and three signature projects that define its work in Afghanistan. Today, the Government also released its second quarterly report to Parliament, a detailed assessment of its progress in Afghanistan covering the period mid-June 2008 to the end of September.

“The safe employment of Chinook helicopters requires the use of escort aircraft. Today’s announcement fulfills the final requirements of the Air Wing,” said Lieutenant General Angus Watt, Chief of the Air Staff. “The mounting of this unit and these new CF capabilities in such a short time represents a significant accomplishment by the dedicated and professional men and women of the CF.”

The Griffons directly support the new air capabilities which were conditions set out in the Parliamentary motion of March 13, 2008 extending Canada’s military mission in Afghanistan until 2011. These air resources were one of the recommendations of the Independent Panel on Canada’s Future Role in Afghanistan, headed by the Honourable John Manley.

- 30 -


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## pipstah

For whoever will go there in the tac avn, be safe and make us proud. Time to show what we can do!


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## Retired AF Guy

It's nice to see that the Liberals have a defense critic who is interested in the welfare of the troops:

_Liberal MP Ujjal Dosanjh also expressed concern Wednesday, calling on the military to rule out any attack role for the new choppers.

"We need to put absolute restrictions on these escort helicopters…*they cannot be used for attack purposes*. They should be purely for defensive purposes, for escorting," he said._


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## PanaEng

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> It's nice to see that the Liberals have a defense critic who is interested in the welfare of the troops:
> 
> _Liberal MP Ujjal Dosanjh also expressed concern Wednesday, calling on the military to rule out any attack role for the new choppers.
> 
> "We need to put absolute restrictions on these escort helicopters…*they cannot be used for attack purposes*. They should be purely for defensive purposes, for escorting," he said._



what an ignorant statement. Does he know anything about the military?
someone should tell him that we actually use real bullets...


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## belka

I'm no expert in helicopters, so how should the Griffon's fair in the high altitude of Afganistan? I would imagine that they won't fly with a short suppy of ammo so they would be pretty heavy.


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## aesop081

NINJA said:
			
		

> I'm no expert in helicopters, so how should the Griffon's fair in the high altitude of Afganistan? I would imagine that they won't fly with a short suppy of ammo so they would be pretty heavy.



They will be more than fine. Other countries dont seem to have problems with their 412s in areas of Afghanistan with higer altitudes.


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## old medic

Edmonton-based helicopter squadron Afghanistan bound
Canwest News Service (Edmonton Journal)
Published: Monday, December 01, 2008
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=1017558



> EDMONTON - Thirty-one Edmonton-based soldiers, members of 408 Tactical Helicopter Squadron, left Monday for a five-month tour in Afghanistan.
> 
> It is the first time this unit has been fully deployed to Afghanistan.
> 
> The Canadian Helicopter Force will be made up of six Chinook transport helicopters that are already on the ground overseas.
> 
> They will be flown by the pilots that left Monday.
> 
> Canada will also use eight Griffon helicopters, a smaller, escort aircraft. Crew for those choppers are expected to depart in the next two months.
> 
> All the airborne assets are expected to be in place by February 2009.
> 
> In the past, Canadian troops in Afghanistan had to largely rely on the aircraft and crews from other countries fighting in the country.
> 
> That will no longer be the case, said Lt.-Col. Roger Gagnon, the head of the Canadian Helicopter Force.
> 
> "To be able to lead you into battle is a very distinct honour for me," Gagnon told the assembled troops during a short ceremony just before they began their trip early Monday.
> 
> Roughly 1,000 soldiers from CFB Edmonton returned from Afghanistan this fall.
> 
> The bulk of soldiers currently deployed are from Ontario's CFB Petawawa.


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## stealthylizard

Ujjal Dosanjh should have stuck with provincial politics where he has no say over the running of the country's military (next coalition MND :crybaby: ??).  A couple of us infantry types have already been inquiring about how to get on as a door gunner.


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## OldSolduer

stealthylizard said:
			
		

> Ujjal Dosanjh should have stuck with provincial politics where he has no say over the running of the country's military (next coalition MND :crybaby: ??).  A couple of us infantry types have already been inquiring about how to get on as a door gunner.



I'm with you lizard!!! I'm a bit old to be out chasing them by foot, so choppers suit me just fine!! :skull:


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## Ex-Dragoon

stealthylizard said:
			
		

> Ujjal Dosanjh should have stuck with provincial politics where he has no say over the running of the country's military (next coalition MND :crybaby: ??).  A couple of us infantry types have already been inquiring about how to get on as a door gunner.



Isn't there a post in here that states its the flight engineers that act as door gunners....


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## xmarcx

I believe LFWA was tasked to stand up some door gunners, and volunteers were requested from 2VP.


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## toughenough

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Isn't there a post in here that states its the flight engineers that act as door gunners....



There is at least one section of Infantry attached to them in the door gunner roles. I personally know a MCpl type currently employed in that capacity.


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## Scoobs

Door gunners are door gunners.  They will be able to work on either airframe, the Griffon or the Chinook.

I am not saying that anyone has violated op security, but please remember this when considering posting things.  I waited to see if anybody would mention it, but nobody has yet.  Therefore, I felt it necessary to remind everyone.  The Air Force has been over in Afg for a long time (myself included), but the recent events represent an increase in our numbers and some of our AF mbrs may not fully appreciate the op security surrounding Afg.  Our Sqn has been reminded of this by our chain of command.

Thanks.


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## OldTanker

Best wishes to all aviators deploying to Afghanistan on this mission. My father was a WWII member of 408 Squadron and his thoughts go with you. Do us proud.


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## kj_gully

Does anyone know if there has been any talk about Canadians flying their own CASEVAC missions with this asset? Just as choppers decrease our risk going out of the wire, this would decrease risk coming home.


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## PuckChaser

I would think that if there's a bird on the ground, and the other Coalition assets are not flying for whatever reason, there'd be Canadian Pilots willing to go into harms way to help their brethren. Brits have already come once that I know of for a CASEVAC that the US would not fly into.

Good luck to all those aviators and ground crew heading over, long overdue! I can't wait to be overseas and see some Griffons rockin' and rollin'.


----------



## Old Sweat

Completely off the subject, with apologies to the mods and everybody else, but I saw a clip of BGen Thompson talking about the latest deaths. In the background was a Chinook with a couple of people in flight suits and light blue wedgies. Am I letting my hyperactive imagination take over?


----------



## Loachman

That was the Air Wing stand-up parade, an event which I could have done without.

I didn't see any wedges, though - only berets.

The Chinook was backdrop, and went flying shortly afterwards.


----------



## The Bread Guy

MSM version here, with the usual disclaimer....


> The Canadian Forces is expanding its presence in the skies over Afghanistan with it's own air wing that will serve under the auspices of the NATO command.  Canada's battle group moved into southern Afghanistan in 2006 without any helicopters, unlike the British, U.S., and Dutch forces.  The lack of air assets forced the Canadians to rely heavily on road convoys which has proven dangerous for troops because of improvised explosive devices and suicide bombers.  Brig.-Gen. Denis Thompson, the commander of Task Force Kandahar, said this is the airforce "equivalent of committing a brigade" to overseas operations.  The wing will have at its disposal six new civilian Mi-8 helicopters, used U.S. Chinooks to be delivered next year and unmanned surveillance aircraft.  The aircraft will be part of a NATO pool but the air wing will give Canada more leverage in the struggle for the use of air assets.


CBC Radio reports on this focus on air assets (first time a CAN Air Wing has deployed since WW2), link to Manley recommendations, and the fact that this is an increase in the number of troops.


----------



## PanaEng

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> MSM version here, with the usual disclaimer....CBC Radio reports on this focus on air assets (first time a CAN Air Wing has deployed since WW2), link to Manley recommendations, and the fact that this is an increase in the number of troops.


Is it just that my AF terminology is lacking or didn't we deploy AF assets for the Balkans and Iraq?


----------



## Gasplug

> Is it just that my AF terminology is lacking or didn't we deploy AF assets for the Balkans and Iraq?



PanaEng,

The helos in VK were a only a detachment.  I seem to remember that there were 4 but I could be wrong. So it looks like the difference is in numbers of deployed airframes.

Gasplug


----------



## Old Sweat

Is it just that my AF terminology is lacking or didn't we deploy AF assets for the Balkans and Iraq?

We weren't in Iraq. However if you are referring to the First Gulf War, we had a large CF18 squadron based in the Gulf.


----------



## GDawg

And the bombing campaign in Kosovo.


----------



## rampage800

KJ

I'll take a quick stab at that one, the Griffons might fly top cover for a CASEVAC bird but doubt they would do it themselves. If they were they'd have to have it configured at all times(with an escort) plus flight medics on so I just don't see it being feasible. That being said in dire circumstances I'm sure they will/would.

Thats just my opinion


----------



## Sf2

There are no flight medics on CASEVAC.  That's the difference between CASEVAC and MEDEVAC


----------



## Cleared Hot

You sure about that? I'm pretty sure that CASEVAC is removal of a combat casualty from the battlefield while MEDEVAC is movement onward or not from a combat zone.

I.e. From the battlefield to KAF = CASEVAC.  From KAF to Landshtuhl (sp?) Germany = MEDEVAC.


----------



## rampage800

Pretty sure there is medics/PJs on CASEVACs, unless it changed in the last little bit but a 15-20 min ride is a long way to go for a casualty with a FE who knows basic FA.


----------



## Cleared Hot

Either way, it doesn't matter.  As the article says the aircraft/crews will go into a pool.  We will bid for missions based on requirements and will get the most appropriate airframe/capability for the mission as available.  Just because we now have airframes over there does not mean we will only be flying in Canadian ones, it just means that we are no longer having to settle for the scraps.  The Griffon is not the best med/casevac bird over there so they will leave that task to the experts.  As for one allocated for something else and being re-tasked in the middle of the mission because we take a casualty, I don't think so.  It sounds good and patriotic here without the bullets flying, but aircraft are controlled at the highest levels and the reality is not so simple especially when we own but don't control them and oh by the way, there is already a very robust system to deal with casualty extraction.


----------



## Run away gun

Cleared Hot said:
			
		

> As for one allocated for something else and being re-tasked in the middle of the mission because we take a casualty, I don't think so.  It sounds good and patriotic here without the bullets flying, but aircraft are controlled at the highest levels and the reality is not so simple especially when we own but don't control them and oh by the way, there is already a very robust system to deal with casualty extraction.



That is the way it works. MEDEVAC is the number one priority in theatre.


----------



## Cleared Hot

Yes it is, but if you are the supported commander (let's say a dismounted Coy commander) don't think for a second you will be able to order your armed recce bird to land in a hot LZ and pick up a casualty.


----------



## Run away gun

Roger, I thought you were saying that birds would not be re-tasking from another location to pick up casualties. My bad.


----------



## rampage800

To the best of my knowledge the only helos that p/u casualties are ones solely dedicated to CASEVAC, I'm sure there has been the odd exception but very few and far between, other choppers are just not equipped to deal with it nor do they seldom have the expertise on-board at the time to keep lets say a Pri 1 Cas alive long enough to make it back to the Role 3. Totally understand that CASEVAC is Pri 1 over there and it has to be  but I believe they are talking about the escorts and not the medical bird itself


----------



## Spr.Earl

I have just returned from a TAV where we have built the infrastructure for 408 for the Chinook's and UAV's.
Now it is up to 408.
Yes all is not complete but they have the basic's to perform thier job.


----------



## Strike

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> I have just returned from a TAV where we have built the infrastructure for 408 for the Chinook's and UAV's.
> Now it is up to 408.
> Yes all is not complete but they have the basic's to perform thier job.



But my office isn't done yet!   ;D


----------



## Nfld Sapper

And they are in theater now,

Canadian-made Griffon helicopters arrive in Kandahar
Last Updated: Saturday, December 20, 2008 | 3:08 PM ET CBC News

The first of Canada's armed CH-146 Griffon helicopters arrived at Kandahar Airfield on Saturday.

The six helicopters, and two more that are expected to be deployed early next year, will provide escort and protection for the larger U.S. CH-47D Chinook transport helicopters also being used by Canadians based in southern Afghanistan.

The lumbering Chinooks are more vulnerable to attack by ground fire and rocket-propelled grenades, so they typically travel with smaller, armed escorts like the Griffons.

The smaller craft have been given extra sensors and Gatling guns on top of their existing side-door machine-guns and armour plating, military officials say.

The Griffons will give air cover to ground convoys and will be on standby to evacuate battlefield casualties, they say.

The commander of Canada's air wing, Col. Christopher Coates, said the Griffons may also be used to spot roadside bombs, which have killed more than half of the 103 Canadian soldiers lost in the Afghanistan mission since it began in 2002.


----------



## Loachman

The NFLD Grinch said:
			
		

> ...armour plating...



Snort.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Loachman said:
			
		

> Snort.



Hey I don't write it, I only post it  ;D


----------



## rampage800

Oh good, just what Canada needs over there, another full Colonel

Its great that we have our own organic assets but we as a TF are way way too top heavy.


----------



## Loachman

The NFLD Grinch said:
			
		

> Hey I don't write it,



Did I say that you did?


----------



## Sf2

rampage800 said:
			
		

> Oh good, just what Canada needs over there, another full Colonel
> 
> Its great that we have our own organic assets but we as a TF are way way too top heavy.



Then who would you suggest run the Wing?


----------



## rampage800

Well in here lies the problem, its not the size of a Wing so why would you call it that. The guy who runs the most troops on the ground/ commmands most of the fighting, is a LCol and is an actual landowner in Z/P, why should someone with a quarter of his troops under him be above him in rank ?

I could buy calling it a Sqn, maybe even have a LCol run it but a full Col, c'mon.


----------



## rampage800

To backtrack a bit, one reason I could concede them justifying a full Colonel there is to have the proper "weight" (read rank) for decisions involving Coalition countries, airspace deconfliction, at the RAOC, etc, etc. If that indeed was the reason, I still think the TF is pretty top heavy though.


----------



## Sf2

Doctrinally, in the Air Force, its not the number of people that determines whether a formation is considered a Sqn or not.  The number/type of aircraft determines that, along with where these aircraft will operate from.  This situation warrants the labelling of a Wing, not a Sqn, and hence, run by a full Col.


----------



## The Bread Guy

A little more from ISAF.....

*Canadian CH-146 Griffons arrive in Afghanistan*
NATO news release PR# 2008-733, 22 Dec 08
News release link

Six Canadian Griffon helicopters landed at the Kandahar Air Field via C-17 Globemaster III aircraft Dec. 20.  The Griffons are the first Canadian helicopters to arrive at the Canadian Air Wing in Afghanistan. 

The Griffons will provide escort protection for Canada’s newly acquired Chinook helicopter, which will allow ISAF to reduce ground-based resupply convoys and reach remote locations in challenging environments more easily, lowering the risk of ambushes, land mines and improvised explosive devices.

“These Griffon helicopters will give the commander the ability to move troops rapidly and with more flexibility,” said Col. Christopher Coates, Commander of the Canadian Air Wing in Kandahar.  “In addition to moving troops, they may also be used for aerial helicopter escort, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance missions.”

The Griffon has proven itself effective in many national and international humanitarian relief operations, including Manitoba’s Red River flood in 1997; Eastern Canada’s ice storm in 1998; and the United Nations effort to stabilize Haiti in 2004.

The Canadian Air Wing is composed of CH-147 D Chinook medium - to heavy - lift helicopters, C-130 Hercules aircraft, Heron Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAV) and CH-146 Griffon helicopters.


----------



## Spr.Earl

Strike said:
			
		

> But my office isn't done yet!   ;D



  ;D ;D ;D ;D.

See you some time  


Nick


----------



## X-mo-1979

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> “These Griffon helicopters will give the commander the ability to move troops rapidly and with more flexibility,” said Col. Christopher Coates, Commander of the Canadian Air Wing in Kandahar.  “In addition to moving troops, they may also be used for aerial helicopter escort, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance missions.”




To Add it will serve it's main purpose in bringing out dignitarys to talk to the troops on a daily basis,one will also be equipped with bootbands and a barber. ;D


----------



## NL_engineer

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> To Add it will serve it's main purpose in bringing out dignitarys to talk to the troops on a daily basis,one will also be equipped with bootbands and a barber. ;D



They are handing them out?  We got told to have at least 10 sets in our UAB  :


----------



## Good2Golf

NL_engineer said:
			
		

> They are handing them out?  We got told to have at least 10 sets in our UAB  :



Isn't one barber enough?  ???


j/k



It'll be nice to have the extra flexibility to get stuff done around the AOR that was hard to do before.

G2G


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Some virtual Griffions here

http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbforums/sbgallery/main.php?g2_itemId=6556&g2_page=3


----------



## childs56

It's been a long time comming. I remember having the discussions in 04 or 05 about this same situation the outcome from a few SMEs on here was there was no way they would ever deploy the Griffons to Afganistan due to ability to fly over there. 
I for one am glad to see our Airforce taking a more active role( besides the medium and most recently heavy lift abilty for fixed wing which is extremely valuable) in the War with it's assests that it has availible to our Forces. 
If the equipment we have has short falls it will be discovered in the next few months and then action can and will be taken to rectify the problems. Possible purchase of larger support helos may be up if the current ones we have cannot full fill the current mission. I am interested  to see how well they will do, I am willing to bet they will be a very valuable low cost solution to our and our Allies needs over there. 

Cheers and good hunting for the Helo crews.


----------



## NL_engineer

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Isn't one barber enough?  ???
> 
> 
> j/k
> 
> 
> G2G



Should have been moooooooooooore specific, ten sets of boot bands

that help you  ;D


----------



## Loachman

CTD said:
			
		

> It's been a long time comming. I remember having the discussions in 04 or 05 about this same situation the outcome from a few SMEs on here was there was no way they would ever deploy the Griffons to Afganistan due to ability to fly over there.



The discussion was principally about the lift role.


----------



## childs56

I also remember about the mounting of Weapons besides the MG already in place and that wasn't going to happen. Amazing what a few years and the proper things in place along with the need to deploy can do. What next the SeaKings Deploying?


----------



## Good2Golf

CTD said:
			
		

> I also remember about the mounting of Weapons besides the MG already in place and that wasn't going to happen. Amazing what a few years and the proper things in place along with the need to deploy can do. What next the SeaKings Deploying?



...also amazing how stuff actually gets done once folks start using the proper tools/procedures that are put in place to make such things happen.  The work to enhance formally the Griffon capability as a natural development of the aircraft was put in place properly more than a year before the Government's decision to deploy, so it wasn't a belated reaction to Government direction but rather a properly planned development of the aircraft to address prior identified deficiencies.

G2G


----------



## Scoobs

Today is a good day in Tac Hel aviation.  to those who said that the Griffon can't work in Afg !!!!!


----------



## Strike

Scoobs said:
			
		

> Today is a good day in Tac Hel aviation.  to those who said that the Griffon can't work in Afg !!!!!



Actually, officially that would have been yesterday.   ;D  Time change and all.


----------



## armoured recce man

good work 408...can't wait to relieve you.....


----------



## OldSolduer

Question:

How is the Griffon performing?


----------



## Franko

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> Question:
> 
> How is the Griffon performing?



It's in the air.     

Regards


----------



## OldSolduer

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> It's in the air.
> 
> Regards



Armored guys!!! LOL How are you?  ;D


----------



## facemesser

so the griffons are as of right now, flying around in Afghanistan?


----------



## Nfld Sapper

DLord said:
			
		

> so the griffons are as of right now, flying around in Afghanistan?



You been living under a rock?  ;D


----------



## facemesser

no, I know they were going to Afghanistan but are they all ready over there and flying missions (or capable) as of now, or do they have to wait a few months, or whatnot


----------



## George Wallace

:

Look up........Read the posts above yours and .........OK......Read them aloud for all of us to hear.......What have Strike and Scoobs Posted?


----------



## Franko

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> Armored guys!!! LOL How are you?  ;D



Oh, you know. 

Making friends one 120mm HEAT round at a time.      

Regards


----------



## OldSolduer

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> Oh, you know.
> 
> Making friends one 120mm HEAT round at a time.
> 
> Regards



Haha!!! Good one! Wish I was there....I would love to make some new friends! ;D


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> Oh, you know.
> 
> Making friends one 120mm HEAT round at a time.
> 
> Regards



What about the belts of 7.62mm ?  ;D


----------



## OldSolduer

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> What about the belts of 7.62mm ?  ;D



I could make lots of friends with a C6 and some belts >


----------



## Nfld Sapper

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> I could make lots of friends with a C6 and some belts >



Think we all could sir 

 :gunner:


----------



## AirCanuck

forgive me if this has already been said, I may have missed it - but has there been any speculation on which squadrons will be involved in this?  
sorry if this may be a bit of a silly question.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Well go to Current 400 Series Squadrons and look at the number of TAC HEL Squadrons and you do the math as which sqn(s) are going.


----------



## Loachman

There will be participation in one form or another by several others as well, in the form of augmentation.


----------



## Spr.Earl

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Isn't one barber enough?  ???
> 
> 
> j/k
> 
> 
> 
> It'll be nice to have the extra flexibility to get stuff done around the AOR that was hard to do before.
> 
> G2G



Should have seen the 20 odd mountain bike's they brought in and had the Air Force ground team assemble them and test ride them while waiting for the main kit to arrive.

Are your mountain bike's working out o.k.?


----------



## PuckChaser

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> Making friends one 120mm HEAT round at a time.



Next time you guys are going to make friends at 4 am, please let me know first? I was sleeping approx 150 feet from the Leo2 for a part of my tour.... I thought the world was ending.


----------



## Franko

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Next time you guys are going to make friends at 4 am, please let me know first? I was sleeping approx 150 feet from the Leo2 for a part of my tour.... I thought the world was ending.



Sorry about trying to save your life and it getting in the way of your sleep...stay in KAF if you want a good nights rest.      

Regards


----------



## AirCanuck

Colin P said:
			
		

> Some virtual Griffions here
> 
> http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbforums/sbgallery/main.php?g2_itemId=6556&g2_page=3



what are those from?


----------



## Nfld Sapper

AirCanuck said:
			
		

> what are those from?



SteelBeasts.com

Originally created as a pure tank sim, Steel Beasts has since expanded into a more complete representation of mobile armored warfare with the emphasis being placed on tactics and emersion. 

Steel Beasts Pro PE features these 'fully playable' vehicles -

Battle Tanks  
Leopard 1A5 (DK)   
Leopard AS1   
Leopard 2A4 (GE)   
Leopard 2A5 (DK)   
M1A1(HA) (US)   
STRV 122   
    
IFVs/PCs   
M2A2 Bradley   
M3A2 Bradley   
M113A3   
ASLAV-PC   
ASLAV-25   
M113AS4   
CV9040b   
CV9040c   
    
Other Playable Vehicles:    
HMMVV with cal .50 HMG   
FIST-V (artillery observer)   
    

It is possible to 'play' these tanks as either the Gunner, Driver, or the TC, thereby taking direct control of all the systems in your endeavor to do maximum damage to the enemy. The Gunner and TC positions within these tanks are highly accurate and taken from real world vehicles in almost every way. Many of these vehicles have very detailed interior views to increase your immersion. The drivers position is more generic and less detailed, but does allow for for the user to get a feel for it. In multiplayer sessions, each of these 3 positions may be manned by human players. These digital tanks were designed with direct input from professional soldiers recalling their experience on real world tanks and were completed with particular attention to detail. You may also guide these tanks from a third person view, allowing the AI 'crew' to fight the tank while still maintaining personal control of its exact position. 

Steel Beasts Pro PE also features these other 'partially playable' vehicles - 
  
T-72M1 
T-80U 
BMD-2 
BMP-1 
BMP-2 
BRDM-2 
BTR-80 
Piranha III  
ASLAV-CS 
LAV-25 
Marder 1A3 (GE) 
MT-LB 
HMMVV with TOW  
BRDM-2AT 
M113 engineering vehicle 
M113 medical evacuation vehicle 
M113 TOW  
M113A3G/VB artillery observer 
Mine clearing line charge trailer (MICLIC)  
OPMV (DK) command post vehicle 
Ural 4320 general purpose truck 
Mercedes GD240  
HEMTT fuel truck 
HEMTT cargo truck 
M901 (US) 
Jaguar 1A3  
Biber bridge layer  
MT-55 bridge layer  
YPR-765 
YPR-765 PRAT  
HIND-E Helicopter  
  
Also, all tanks can be fitted with mine plows or mine rollers.  
  
  


Troops (West Block and East Block) -

Each of the 'partially playable' vehicles allow for guiding the vehicles from a third person point of view. The AI then takes over the brunt of target identification and firing. You may also help them 'notice' enemy units via certain joystick/keyboard commands. So vehicles are not totally in the hands of the AI. 

But maybe you're more of a strategic sort who would rather leave the actual fighting to the grunts? Steel Beasts allows for this too. It is entirely possible (and sometimes necessary) to play an entire game from the map. The map is not only a valuable resource in figuring out where you are on the battlefield, it is also functions as a tactical interface for every unit under your control. From the map you will issue commands and design the routes that will lead your forces to battlefield supremacy (or to becoming burned out hulks). Route types such as Engage, Assault, and Scout all cause the units to perform specific tasks. Such things as varying the speed, fire control orders, and formation are built in in order to tweak all route types to just the thing you need to aid any unit to battlefield survival.


----------



## AirCanuck

any good?  how much?


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Don't know and go to the site to find out.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Photo below - hope all can continue to stay as safe as possible.

*Griffon helicopter crews make history over Kandahar*
Captain Dean Menard, CF Air Force News Room, 2 Feb 09
Article link

On January 6, 2009, the crews of two CH-146 Griffon helicopters made history: they flew a group of soldiers to a Forward Operating Base, thus completing the first sorties by Canadian helicopters in a theatre of war. Both helicopters belong to the Canadian Helicopter Force Afghanistan, part of the Joint Task Force Afghanistan (JTF-Afg) Air Wing.

"We've waited a long time to be here, and it feels really good to finally be adding to the overall mission," said mission commander and pilot Major Trevor Teller of 408 Tactical Helicopter Squadron in Edmonton. "Some of us have only been on the ground for a short time, and to already be flying missions with the Griffon is a huge success for the Wing. There was a heightened sense of anticipation for me, and to have actually flown the first mission in Afghanistan was incredible."....

_More on link_






From left: Capt Curtis Wetyk, aircraft commander; Maj Trevor Teller, mission commander; Capt Michael Allard, first officer; Cpl Eric Fast, door gunner (kneeling); MCpl Rainer Roedger, flight engineer (sitting); Cpl Jesse Hall, door gunner (sitting), MCpl David Williams, flight engineer; Capt Ray Connelly, first officer.  Photo by Capt Dean Menard


----------



## Good2Golf

More info on the Griffon's...probably makes the Taliban cringe knowing these pilots aren't at home wearing burquas.

http://watch.ctv.ca/news/#clip136007

Good stuff!

G2G


----------



## AirCanuck

well, less about Griffons than women in theatre (not that that isn't an important topic by any means), but still has some great shots of the Griffon in the sandbox!


----------



## X-mo-1979

Please stop buzzing vehicle's. Everytime we were parked in a leaguer you did. Please.My guys were usually trying to catch a nap between moving everytime you buzzed over banking left and right.We didn't think you were cool we just really learned to despise you. :nod: Fly like 20m left or right not right over top of our vehicles please.I really enjoyed the day you blew our tarp we were using across the leaguer.Thanks.


Cheers to the Chinook.See you guys do some fantastic stuff!Thank you.

And thank you American attack helo's.THANK YOU.


----------



## armoured recce man

point noted i will pass that along to the pilots, and hopefully the'll get the point

thanks for the job you did


----------



## Good2Golf

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Please stop buzzing vehicle's. Everytime we were parked in a leaguer you did. Please.My guys were usually trying to catch a nap between moving everytime you buzzed over banking left and right.We didn't think you were cool we just really learned to despise you. :nod: Fly like 20m left or right not right over top of our vehicles please.I really enjoyed the day you blew our tarp we were using across the leaguer.Thanks.



"Dear sir, please stop running around with those stinky diesel-powered vehicles, parking all over the place and making that loud "pop-pop-pop" noise with that big gun..." 


Think about it it...perhaps the guys and gals are manoeuvring to stay low and avoid taking SAFIRE that would hurt them a lot more than it would hurt you in your LAV.  At low level and 100 knots (180 km/h!) stuff comes up in front of you pretty fast.  Do you think the guys and gals are deliberately aiming to purposely overfly you and a) wake you up, or b) give away your position?  

Is it something that back at KAF in a DFAC you'd take the opportunity to walk up to BGen Vance and tell him that the Griffons are frickin' you boys, or is it something you'd tell the guys on the boardwalk the next time you see them, "Dude, you're busting my rack time -- how about not flying around where we're at?"

2 ¢



			
				X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Cheers to the Chinook.See you guys do some fantastic stuff!Thank you.



Message passed.

G2G


----------



## X-mo-1979

armoured recce man said:
			
		

> point noted i will pass that along to the pilots, and hopefully the'll get the point
> 
> thanks for the job you did


Cheers mate.



			
				Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Think about it it...perhaps the guys and gals are manoeuvring to stay low and avoid taking SAFIRE that would hurt them a lot more than it would hurt you in your LAV.  At low level and 100 knots (180 km/h!) stuff comes up in front of you pretty fast.  Do you think the guys and gals are deliberately aiming to purposely overfly you and a) wake you up, or b) give away your position?



Seen.And believe me I know what your trying to say.However sitting north of Hows e madad in an open desert leaves manoeuvre room. 
If it was for a tactical advantage I could understand,however no matter where we were they were buzzing us.

We were quite excited to have Canadian aircraft with us at first.After usually working with the Americans they had some HUGE boots to fill.Those Chinook pilots drove it like they stole it.Landed in some awesome tight areas....hot areas.But from a guy on the ground everyone is sick of getting buzzed.And believe me you can tell when theirs tactical flying going on,and showboating.


----------



## Good2Golf

...ack "How's He Mad"...yup, you're point is valid, X. :nod:  

My apologies for launching on ya...I was thinking different terrain, and you really don't want to hang around...low, fast and irregular means survival!

Thanks for keeping those stinky, diesel smoking, pop-pop-pop things running! 

Cheers
G2G

p.s.  On the whole, though, our Tac Aviators are doing great stuff!  Looking at how long (or not, long) it took, and what the folks are providing now, it's probably a fair assessment to say that they went from 2004 (post-Apollo, i.e. nothing on the ground) to a 2009 BG-equivalent for Avn (8 Griffon and 6 Chinook is a huge capability) in about 7 months flat...pretty fricking amazing!


----------



## Franko

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> "Dear sir, please stop running around with those stinky diesel-powered vehicles, parking all over the place and making that loud "pop-pop-pop" noise with that big gun..."



Some troops aren't in LAVs...the big problem lies when they go in front of 105mm and 120mm.     

I mean if you feel safer doing so, go for it. Hate to see someone pop up at the wrong time with a RR though. They should stay away from hedgehogs in close country.

Mind you one time we were in the middle of a desert when we got buzzed...all open for miles.

Regards


----------



## X-mo-1979

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> ...ack "How's He Mad"...yup, you're point is valid, X. :nod:
> 
> My apologies for launching on ya...I was thinking different terrain, and you really don't want to hang around...low, fast and irregular means survival!
> 
> Thanks for keeping those stinky, diesel smoking, pop-pop-pop things running!
> 
> Cheers
> G2G
> 
> p.s.  On the whole, though, our Tac Aviators are doing great stuff!  Looking at how long (or not, long) it took, and what the folks are providing now, it's probably a fair assessment to say that they went from 2004 (post-Apollo, i.e. nothing on the ground) to a 2009 BG-equivalent for Avn (8 Griffon and 6 Chinook is a huge capability) in about 7 months flat...pretty fricking amazing!



Cheers mate.
Agreed they went from zero to ten pretty quick.


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## daftandbarmy

This is great stuff. You know you're in a real war with a real brigade when the army and the air force are bitching at each other  ;D


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