# Relationship Matter...Help Needed



## oink (6 Sep 2012)

Hello everyone,

New member here....here is my story and what am going through right now. I joined the military 4yrs ago and I have a 4yr old with my wife. It seems of late, we have both come to realize after 10yrs of marriage that our interests and ways just aren't compatible. I am in Ontario by the way

I am up to the point now where I want a divorce, and I mentioned this to her the other day. I am currently paying the mortgage and car payment, along with other utilities. I don't want to turn this into a mess, just looking for a better way for the sake of our son (whom I plan to support and be there for).

My question to others who have been thru similar situations

1. Is there any military help legal wise ?
2. What is the wife entitled to?
3. Can I just put the house back on the market?
4. If she can't afford a lawyer, what happens?
5. anything else I should know?

I have no family support in this country, so nowhere for me to turn. Please be considerate in your replies, it's tough enough as it is now.

Please pm me instead if you will rather keep things private.

Thx


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## newwifey (6 Sep 2012)

Just suggestions from one who has been there (it took me longer to get divorced than I was married!!)  
I can't be specific for laws as mine was Alberta and civil, not military.

You've been together 10 years and have a child, have you both done everything you can to salvage this relationship?  Go to counselling, speak to your church.  There is help out there if you need and want it.  Not judging at all, but you should try to do all you can to save this, divorce it not only tough on the adults, it sucks for the kids.  

No matter how civil you think this will be, it won't go smooth.  But maybe you'll be lucky.  Depends how you proceed, as adults thinking things thru rationally or as teens throwing tantrums. 

Whether you proceed with a divorce or not, she will be in your life forever, you share a child.  Be respectful of that as you proceed.  You loved her enough to marry her and have a child.  Love her enough to get through all this with your dignity in tact (both of you).

Wife is entitled to half.  Half of all the combined assets (including pensions) and half of the combined debts.  She is also entitled to spousal support (for a period of time) and child support plus a percentage of child expenses.
If you are both on the title, you both need to agree to listing and selling your home, you can't just do that on your own.
If she can't afford a lawyer, offer to pay it (altho the supports will assist in that I would think.)

Lawyers and divorce is REALLY expensive.  Don't haggle over $20, particularly when your lawyer is costing you $450 an hour!  Choose your battles and determine where it's really worth the expense!

Ottawa divorce has a superb forum that will address probably 99% of things you want to know.  There are some really good folks there and some fantastic posts.


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## cupper (6 Sep 2012)

Best piece of advice you are going to get:

Consult a lawyer.


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## Pusser (6 Sep 2012)

newwifey said:
			
		

> Wife is entitled to half.  Half of all the combined assets (including pensions) and half of the combined debts.  She is also entitled to spousal support (for a period of time) and child support plus a percentage of child expenses.



That's not entirely true, but it might be a good starting point.  Your lawyer will need to consult the Federal Pension Benefit Division Act (I think that's the right name).  Spousal support also depends on numerous factors (i.e. what if she makes more money).  Child support/expenses are also a matter of negotiation (although there are formulas that provide starting points).  The bottom line is a that there are many factors to consider and things can get very complicated.  GET A LAWYER SOONER RATHER THAN LATER!  Your local JAG office cannot represent you or provide legal advice in this, but they may be able to give you a referral.


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## George Wallace (6 Sep 2012)

newwifey said:
			
		

> Wife is entitled to half.  Half of all the combined assets (including pensions) ........



Wife is only entitled to half of a member's pension if she was married to him prior to his enrollment in the CF.  If she married him after he enrolled, she is only entitled to half of that portion of his pension covered during the period of their marriage.  Now, what if she is "Wife Number 3"?  What would she get then?     >


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## Remius (6 Sep 2012)

I went through this 6 years ago.  We have an 8 year old boy.  He was 2 when we split.  Luckily it went smoothly.  But my situation or anyone elses on here might not be the same.  The best advice someone here gave you is consult a lawyer.  He/she will walk you through the ins and outs and what you will face.  I won't comment on what anybody else has said here...just go talk to a real expert because you have to much at stake to rely on advice from a public forum.


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## newwifey (6 Sep 2012)

Child support is not negotiable.  You can consult the tables if you want to know how much you have to pay.
Section 7 expenses are determined based on income for both parents.  If you earn more, you'll pay more.  Only way you can pay less is if you have the child at least 40% of the time.

They've been married (I assume from original post) since he's been in, she's entitled to half of what he's got in pension.  (if you can afford it, pay her out instead)
I'm also guessing if the poster is concerned she can't afford a lawyer, he earns more.  However, if she earned more, he could request spousal support.  It does work two ways.

First wife, fifth wife, doesn't matter.  They are entitled to half the amount that accrued from the date of marriage to the date of separation.  No more.  Could negotiate less.


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## George Wallace (6 Sep 2012)

newwifey said:
			
		

> They are entitled to half the amount that accrued from the date of marriage to the date of separation.



Much better wording that originally posted.


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## 421_434_226 (7 Sep 2012)

I believe that the amount she is entitled to from your pension is transferred to a locked in financial product such as an RRSP that she can not touch until 65 yrs of age this is not an immediate cash payout.


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## Occam (7 Sep 2012)

Gizmo 421 said:
			
		

> I believe that the amount she is entitled to from your pension is transferred to a locked in financial product such as an RRSP that she can not touch until 65 yrs of age this is not an immediate cash payout.



Yeah, don't go there.  It's actually much, much more complicated than that and only an actuary could fully comprehend the formula for figuring out the lump sum your spouse gets.

Suffice it to say that on divorce, assets are subject to division.  CF pension is but one of the assets that can be divided.  It doesn't have to be included in the division, the CF member could avoid having their pension affected by negotiating a mutually agreeable similar asset to keep things equitable.  One's spouse might not be interested in an asset that they have to wait until 55 for, and even then they only receive an annuity from it - the funds cannot be withdrawn.  

Edit:  My ex dragon wife was willing to leave my CF pension alone if I was willing to give her cash so that she could reduce or eliminate the shared debt that she would have ended up with.  A lawyer would be able to advise as to what an "equitable" trade-off would be if you were to give cash up front in return for her waiving rights to a pension benefits division.


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## oink (7 Sep 2012)

Thanks everyone for the feedback. It seems from "our talk" yesterday, she is making it clear that she is not going to move out of the house and that I should. I told her that I'll no longer be able to pay the mortgage nor the car payment and am more than happy for the bank to take the house.

I did mention that we can either be adults about it and settle things amicably or we can go down the court route which will end up costing us both. I suggested going to MEDIATION to work out a separation agreement.

She also has teenage daughter from a previous relationship, which has put a strain on our relationship. She has custody and claims she receives alimony, but never once has she shown me payments, and instead getting me to pay for activities for her daughter.

Looks like I'll need a lawyer afterall and their fees are astronomical, with the ones have seen asking for a deposit of $3500


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## Pusser (7 Sep 2012)

oink said:
			
		

> I told her that I'll no longer be able to pay the mortgage nor the car payment and am more than happy for the bank to take the house.



Don't go there.  Nobody wins in a foreclosure.  The damage you can do to your credit can be substantial and long-lasting.  Ignoring things will not make them go away and will only cause you greater pain in the long run.  Talk to a lawyer.  It may be expensive, but it is money well-spent and will actually be cheaper in the end.


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## GnyHwy (7 Sep 2012)

oink said:
			
		

> She also has teenage daughter from a previous relationship, which has put a strain on our relationship. She has custody and claims she receives alimony, but never once has she shown me payments, and instead getting me to pay for activities for her daughter.



Tread lightly here, you may want to leave well enough alone.  You maybe responsible for her daughter as well.  If the daughter's father is paying child support currently, you may want to leave that be.  Because you have been the guardian of her daughter, you may now be responsible, and the actual father could be absolved.  I am not certain of this, and a lawyer will set you straight, but I have reason to believe this is true.


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## Scott (7 Sep 2012)

Bottom line, and it can be seen in the subtext here - like when people say, "I'm not sure..." is to follow the normal next line: "Contact a lawyer"

It is easy to feel better having said your piece on an internet forum. Fine, I feel for you. But do not think that the replies you get here will substitute for actual legal advice from one of those actual lawyers. 

You get what you pay for...or you pay for not getting it now. Take your pick


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## Jager (7 Sep 2012)

GnyHwy said:
			
		

> Tread lightly here, you may want to leave well enough alone.  You maybe responsible for her daughter as well.  If the daughter's father is paying child support currently, you may want to leave that be.  Because you have been the guardian of her daughter, you may now be responsible, and the actual father could be absolved.  I am not certain of this, and a lawyer will set you straight, but I have reason to believe this is true.



Depending on the Judge and province it can go either way. In Alberta I have found that a Judge will not make a "step parent" financially responsible for a step child that has not been adopted. I know this from experience as I went thru this entire process in the last 6 Months and she had tried to make me pay child support for her teenage son from a past relationship. The judge that I had laughed at her, and stated quite clearly that there is no legal obligation for me to provide support for a child that is not biologically related nor adopted by me. 

Though your millage could differ, I suggest contacting a Lawyer as they will be able to help you understand the rules and obligations in your situation.

As for the house, there are many routes that can be taken to deal with the Mortgage, selling, etc. Me personally I'm still dealing with this one, as she refuses to sell the house, yet doesn't live in it (we have renters, as she will not let me live in the house either.... funny that). I have to refile in the queens bench to have the court decide to either give her sole ownership of the house (and her $35000 lien) or to give me sole ownership of the house (and take the lien off that is in her name alone). Again I suggest talking to a lawyer, or do some serious reading on the rules and laws for divorce in the Provence that she lives in/you where married in/whatever. I suggest a 1 hour consult with a lawyer to sort out the basics at a minimum. I personally dealt with my own divorce without the use of a Lawyer, but I utilized several 1 hour consultations to get paperwork in order and to have all my questions answered.


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## bridges (7 Sep 2012)

A follow-up question, if I may, to those who've posted about pensions & spouses - if you've already retired & are receiving a pension when you get married for the first time, would your pension typically remain yours for life?   

Good luck to the OP, by the way - and I concur with the "consult a lawyer asap" advice.


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## Pusser (7 Sep 2012)

bridges said:
			
		

> A follow-up question, if I may, to those who've posted about pensions & spouses - if you've already retired & are receiving a pension when you get married for the first time, would your pension typically remain yours for life?
> 
> Good luck to the OP, by the way - and I concur with the "consult a lawyer asap" advice.



Your pension is yours until you die.  I honestly don't know what happens to your pension if you and your post-career spouse split up, but I would like to think that the spouse would have no claim on it because he/she had no part in earning it.  The CFSA has a "gold-digger" clause that denies survivor benefits to any spouse whom the recipient marries after age 60.


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## bridges (7 Sep 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Your pension is yours until you die.  I honestly don't know what happens to your pension if you and your post-career spouse split up, but I would like to think that the spouse would have no claim on it because he/she had no part in earning it.  The CFSA has a "gold-digger" clause that denies survivor benefits to any spouse whom the recipient marries after age 60.



I was just wondering if the accrual is treated differently than the payout.  I'd like to think that, for someone who earned their CF pension entirely on their own (spouse-wise), they can at least rely on those payments remaining theirs in the long run - whatever may happen with a future marriage.

Interesting, about the so-called "gold-digger" clause ... although we have many pensioners younger than 60, so they'll just have to keep an eye out.


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## captloadie (7 Sep 2012)

Would the pension not be seen as a form of income in the eyes of the court?


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## Occam (7 Sep 2012)

bridges said:
			
		

> A follow-up question, if I may, to those who've posted about pensions & spouses - if you've already retired & are receiving a pension when you get married for the first time, would your pension typically remain yours for life?



From http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/eppp-archive/100/201/301/tbs-sct/tb_manual-ef/Pubs_pol/hrpubs/Pensions/PBDA_e.html

Q. Can the member's pension benefits be divided if the member is receiving a retirement pension at the time of the division? 

A. Yes. The member's pension benefits, including any present or future annuity, allowance or return of contributions, are subject to division regardless of whether or not benefits are being paid at the time of the division. 

So, they would crunch the numbers, find out what the lump sum amount is worth to the spouse, pay them, and then immediately reduce the pensioner's monthly annuity by the appropriate amount.


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## bridges (7 Sep 2012)

Occam said:
			
		

> From http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/eppp-archive/100/201/301/tbs-sct/tb_manual-ef/Pubs_pol/hrpubs/Pensions/PBDA_e.html
> 
> Q. Can the member's pension benefits be divided if the member is receiving a retirement pension at the time of the division?
> 
> A. Yes. The member's pension benefits, including any present or future annuity, allowance or return of contributions, are subject to division regardless of whether or not benefits are being paid at the time of the division.



Thanks for the ref.  It's interesting, as the future spouse would have had NO part in the earning of said income (maintaining the household, whatever) - the CF service was over & done before they even met.   I'd thought that the spouse's "contributions in kind", towards earning the income in the first place, formed the rationale for pension division.



> Q. What does the Pension Benefits Division Act (PBDA) do?
> 
> A. The PBDA provides a mechanism for dividing pension benefits *acquired* under a federal Public Service pension plan between the plan member and his or her spouse or former spouse on the breakdown of their marriage or common-law relationship.



What's not clear to me is, does "acquired" mean earned, or paid?

I think a phone call to the number at the bottom of their website is in order.  Thanks again.


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## Remius (7 Sep 2012)

I can't say this enough.  If and when you get married or chose to live with someone, get a pre-nup or a co-habitation agreement in place.  escpecially if it's your second  or third or fourth go around to protect things like your pension, your home and whatever else.  Sounds callous I know but in this day and age "love" does not always last.


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## bridges (7 Sep 2012)

Crantor said:
			
		

> I can't say this enough.  If and when you get married or chose to live with someone, get a pre-nup or a co-habitation agreement in place.  escpecially if it's your second  or third or fourth go around to protect things like your pension, your home and whatever else.  Sounds callous I know but in this day and age "love" does not always last.



 :goodpost:   Agreed.  You just never know what will happen - addiction, affairs, maybe simply growing apart.  

A friend of mine is paying child support to her ex, as he's on disability and makes far less than she does.  They share custody of the kids.  She's barely making ends meet in a small townhouse, while he's having a new house built.  ??   Yes, there's always more than meets the eye - but I often wonder about those financial "tables" for child support, and what the true impact is on each parent.  I hope the OP seeks professional advice asap.


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## Remius (7 Sep 2012)

Bridges, those tables are ridiculously outdated and designed for a time when women were not as prevalent in the workforce and bore the brunt of running a household raising kids etc.  In my situation even with me having our child 40% of the time, she would still pay me an absurd amount of money that would only make her worse off in regard to our child.  I make a decent salary (nowhere near what she makes mind you).  I could have raked her over the coals in that regard but, we came to an understanding in regards to our son's needs, activities etc.  Everything is on a case by case basis and we split the costs or cover whatever he needs in an agreeable manner.  So she might pay for most of his sports activities and clothes, I cover his school supplies and RESP contributions, food is covered by each of us (i can easily buy for two for just about the same amount for one), she makes his school lunches, he has dinner with me etc etc.  It works for us.  Had I taken advantage of the current child support payments, given our situation, I would have done more harm than good.  I litteraly told my lawyer that those costs given on that table, when we looked at them, were absolutely ridiculous and wasn't going to force that.

I realise that not everyone is in the same boat but they need to find a better gradiant scale for couples that earn good livings.


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## bridges (10 Sep 2012)

Crantor, I suspect you're right about those tables.  I'm impressed with how your family has addressed things in a logical, mutually supportive way for your particular circumstances.  I only hope that if I'm ever in that situation, we can keep our 'mature' hats on and do likewise.  

I wonder if anyone's looking at actually updating those tables to reflect the modern reality.   :rofl:  Probably not.


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## oink (10 Sep 2012)

Thanks everyone for your replies so far. I have a question for you

If she is saying she wants to keep the house and buying me out, what things can I use for negotiations considering we have joint line of credit debts. Can I use spousal support to my advantage, and how do you get your name of the mortgage payment with the bank?


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## newwifey (10 Sep 2012)

You are getting WAY too far ahead of yourself here.  

However, I'm a little confused.  In your original post you asked what happens if she cannot afford a lawyer?  How can she afford a house then??  Your comments have me asking me more questions than what can be answered.  It's the banker in me seeing the gaps.

Have you spoken to a lawyer yet or at least looked up the laws where you are so you can familiarize yourself with the steps needed to at least begin the process?

As far as your latest questions, I'd list all your assets and all the liabilities, determine what you'd like to have.  Have her do the same.  There's your starting point. 

As for the mortgage, nothing you can do right now.  Later on though, you or she would have to re-qualify in your own name.


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## The Anti-Royal (11 Sep 2012)

The advice you'll get here is worth exactly what you're paying for it.  Your situation is different from everyone else's on this site, and that's why you need to speak to a lawyer as soon as possible.

The money you will spend protecting your interests and those of your children will be worth it.


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## oink (10 Oct 2012)

Thanks everyone for your input.....update from last time

The spouse started a full-time job yesterday which is a good thing I guess. I take the toddler to school/daycare in the morning and she picks him up. I did speak to a lawyer for 1hr as suggested and laid it all on the table.

I was told I "might" have to pay child support for the stepdaughter (going on 17yrs) and was shown the table with the amount for 2 kids. She also spoke to her lawyer I guess and she keeps telling me that it is the law and there is nothing I can do about it. I mentioned to her that she will have to prove that I acted "In proviso as a father" before that flies

Being that I never adopted the kid and was never allowed to discipline or make decision of the child's future, I don't see how all of a sudden she wants me to pay CS? There is a case out the : Chartier vs Chartier 1999 that keep coming up in my research (a father appealed a CS order for a stepchild)

She has however agreed that the house can be sold in 2-3yrs when am posted. I have no plan to move out now as it's not feasible for me and have been advised to stay in the house even though she keeps insisting that I move out.

There is a big line of credit debt that needs to be paid, along with mortgage and car payment.

I don't see a table for spousal support, another thing she is talking about planning to get from me. Is this possible and how is this worked out considering she now has a full-time job?


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## newwifey (10 Oct 2012)

You should probably go speak to that lawyer again   

Child support for the step daughter may NOT be applicable by the time you get around to the actual divorce part if she's all ready 17.  However, if she goes to college or university, you may still have to assist.  I would suggest that after a ten year marriage, you'd have a tough time proving you aren't involved with the stepdaughter at all as a parent figure.  (if there is child support being received from her bio-dad, the obligation lies less with you)

If divorce is really what you are trying to accomplish here, you can still have papers drawn up stating the date of separation (so the clock begins) divorce cannot be completed until after a year.  It should state that you ceased cohabiting but continued to live in the same house blah, blah, blah  You aren't still sleeping together are you?  If you are, you are still cohabitating.  Just so you know.

Google spousal support with children calculator, it will give you an idea of ranges.  But don't take it as gospel, this one is crazy complicated!  Yes, she is entitled to receive it due to the fact that you were married for 10+ years.  It's a new job (and likely not a career, but that is an assumption on my part).  If this was being calculated today, would have zero bearing on the conversation.  The lawyers will look at the last 3 years of tax returns, for a start.   But your lawyer would likely be including clauses that trigger adjustments for various life events in your divorce agreement.

Here is the link to the Guidelines, it's a lot of reading http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/pi/fcy-fea/spo-epo/g-ld/spag/toc-tdm.html

But really, you'll have to start dishing out the cash for legal representation.  Every case is different and has different mitigating factors, you have many!! 

A mediator might be a good place to begin???  

From personal experience: Try to remember you did love (and marry) this lady and she is the mother of your child.  Try to play nice.  It makes it a much easier process if you are both respectful and somewhat dignified and adult like.  You will be interacting together for the rest of your life, you share a child.  Nasty words and actions just make it that much harder to reach a final agreement and will cost you oodles more money in the end.  Plus it makes it darn near impossible to co-parent.


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## bridges (11 Oct 2012)

newwifey said:
			
		

> From personal experience: Try to remember you did love (and marry) this lady and she is the mother of your child.  Try to play nice.  It makes it a much easier process if you are both respectful and somewhat dignified and adult like.  You will be interacting together for the rest of your life, you share a child.  Nasty words and actions just make it that much harder to reach a final agreement and will cost you oodles more money in the end.  Plus it makes it darn near impossible to co-parent.



Good advice, especially this part.  MP inbound.


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## jemgirl (11 Apr 2015)

bridges said:
			
		

> :goodpost:   Agreed.  You just never know what will happen - addiction, affairs, maybe simply growing apart.
> 
> A friend of mine is paying child support to her ex, as he's on disability and makes far less than she does.  They share custody of the kids.  She's barely making ends meet in a small townhouse, while he's having a new house built.  ??   Yes, there's always more than meets the eye - but I often wonder about those financial "tables" for child support, and what the true impact is on each parent.  I hope the OP seeks professional advice asap.



Scary. 
I'm falling for a soldier and worried and excited at the same time.
Curious how relationships within military work? its hard as it is being a civi trying to hold the fort together...


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## PuckChaser (12 Apr 2015)

jemgirl said:
			
		

> Scary.
> I'm falling for a soldier and worried and excited at the same time.
> Curious how relationships within military work? its hard as it is being a civi trying to hold the fort together...



My wife had no military family members when she married me, and knew that being a CAF member was who I was. My salary thankfully allows her to stay at home and raise our 2 small kids, and the military "family" gives her as much support as she needs if I'm away. If you truly care for this soldier, and are willing to make it work for the long-haul, then you'll be set. There are unique situations that the military life will present, but the information (including this forum) is there to help you get through it.


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