# SHOES FOR OFFICERS AND CWO



## serge (20 Sep 2021)

Where can I find the reference that officers and or CWO have to wear shoes on parade instead of inkle boots, like NCMs ?  thank you.


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## OldSolduer (20 Sep 2021)

The Dress Manual should refer


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## serge (20 Sep 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> The Dress Manual should refer


I did check first...did not find anything.


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## OldSolduer (20 Sep 2021)

serge said:


> I did check first...


The CO might be able to order this. I am not sure,


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## Remius (20 Sep 2021)

I’m not sure it’s “must”


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## serge (20 Sep 2021)

Remius said:


> I’m not sure it’s “must”


you ar eright not a must but that is what we see all the time in the last 20 years.


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## Remius (20 Sep 2021)

This RSM is wearing ankle boots.  Most RSMs I’ve seems wear ankle boots. In fact I see two CWOs in this pic wearing ankle boots.


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## dangerboy (20 Sep 2021)

It is one of those "unofficial" rules based on unit or branch/corps tradition. I have never seen an RSM wear low shoes on parade just officers. For officers, I would check with the Adj and they will sort you out.


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## Blackadder1916 (20 Sep 2021)

The Guns seem to waffle a little on when CWOs wear boots or oxfords.



			https://rca-arc.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/rca-standing-orders-2021-vol1.pdf


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## Kilted (20 Sep 2021)

In Scottish Regiments, you now switch from Oxfords to Brogues when you get promoted to Corporal


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## dimsum (20 Sep 2021)

You gotta wonder what story spurred (ha!) the "not to be worn while dancing" line whilst wearing spurs.

But anyway, the first Coxn of the unit I was in had a great line when one of us Naval Cadets asked that very same question years ago: 

"Officers.  Wear.  Shoes."


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## ballz (20 Sep 2021)

2 RCR the officers wore boots on parade as with everyone else.


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## SupersonicMax (20 Sep 2021)

Oxford Shoes?  Parades? What is this weird vocabulary?


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## dimsum (20 Sep 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> Oxford Shoes?  Parades? What is this weird vocabulary?


"What the Army and Navy do sometimes"


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## Eye In The Sky (20 Sep 2021)

Here's the only "shall" I think you'll find in 265 IRT ankle boots:

_CH 5, Annex C Service Dress No. 3_

5. _ Skirts and pumps shall not be worn on parade. For Army members, boots ankle shall be the normal footwear ordered worn on parade._






						Dress instructions | Annex C Service dress - No. 3 - Canada.ca
					

Canadian Armed Forces Dress Instructions




					www.canada.ca
				




Almost every parade instruction/Admin O I've seen over XX years has said "_officers shall wear oxfords, NCMs shall wear ankle boots_".  Recently I was part of a mil funeral @ the NMC.  As there was no instructions otherwise, I wore short sleeve shirt and oxfords and some people thought that was odd.  Just tells me most people just aren't aware of  para 5(b)(2) at link below.

Long-sleeved shirts:

shall be worn by Navy members, and
may be ordered worn by Army and Air Force members.






						Dress instructions | Annex A Ceremonial dress - No. 1 - Canada.ca
					

Canadian Armed Forces Dress Instructions




					www.canada.ca
				




OldSolduer mentioned "the CO can order" aspect...265, Ch 1, para 8:

8.  Control is exercised by local commanders who may standardize the dress of subordinates on any occasion, including the wear of accoutrements and alternative or optional items, subject to overall command direction.

** just to mention, there are other dress instr's to read/consider.  I'm a 1 Cdn Air Div type, so operational dress is governed by a CADO, and then I have my Wing Dress Instr's to know/consider as well.


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## Ostrozac (20 Sep 2021)

The actual dress regulations say that either oxfords or ankle boots can be worn, but that ankle boots are the normal footwear for parades. This does imply that oxfords are normal footwear for other, unstated, duties. The dress regulations do not indicate an officer/NCM divide on the subject of footwear. And since officers and NCMs are issued with both, the implication is that they can wear both, depending on the circumstances.

If the various Corps and Regimental Senates find this situation distasteful and offensive to tradition — they are free to staff amendments. The dress instructions devote 7 pages to the subject of aiguillettes — there is room for another sentence on shoes.


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## Haggis (20 Sep 2021)

Kilted said:


> In Scottish Regiments, you now switch from Oxfords to Brogues when you get promoted to Corporal.


Depends on the unit as brogues are not provided at public expense.  Members either buy them or they are provided from non-public funds (e.g. "regimental" kit).


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## Kilted (21 Sep 2021)

Haggis said:


> Depends on the unit as brogues are not provided at public expense.  Members either buy them or they are provided from non-public funds (e.g. "regimental" kit).


They are on logistic corps now.


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## Haggis (21 Sep 2021)

Kilted said:


> They are on logistic corps now.


Three years too late for me.


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## dangerboy (21 Sep 2021)

Hopefully they are better quality than the shoes and ankle boots they currently have and you can actually shine them.


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## Eye In The Sky (21 Sep 2021)

That's the main reason I started wearing oxfords anytime possible.  I got tired of investing my time into shitty ankle boots that look shitty after realistic amounts of effort put into the shine.  I'm getting older and have less time and GAFF for things like this...


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## dimsum (21 Sep 2021)

dangerboy said:


> Hopefully they are better quality than the shoes and ankle boots they currently have and you can actually shine them. *put Leather Luster on them*


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## Furniture (24 Sep 2021)

Eye In The Sky said:


> That's the main reason I started wearing oxfords anytime possible.  I got tired of investing my time into shitty ankle boots that look shitty after realistic amounts of effort put into the shine.  I'm getting older and have less time and GAFF for things like this...


I even went so far as to buy the SWAT oxfords at the Canex. They are more comfortable than the issued ones, and only require a wipe down to get the dust/dirt off them. 

If I was sure about how much longer I'll be around I'd likely buy quality leather oxfords to wear daily, but the SWAT ones will suffice.


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## Titix (9 Nov 2021)

Hello,

As Remembrance Day gets closer, I checked this page :






						Dress Instructions | Annex E Authorized optional items - Canada.ca
					

Canadian Armed Forces Dress Instructions




					www.canada.ca
				




Line 29 states that *Patent leather Oxford shoes - Military pattern may be worn with all non-ceremonial orders of DEU.*

My understanding of this, as an RCAF junior officer, is that when wearing NO 1A order of dress (ceremonial, medals only), which is what I was directed to wear for attending a 11 Nov ceremony, I do not have the option to wear Oxford shoes, and as a consequence, I shall wear my ankle boots with my 1A DEU. I believe Oxford are appropriate for all NO 3 Service Dress, at the office and for general business.

What do think of that? Would you say that if not told otherwise, wearing ankle boots with 1A order of dress is in accordance with the dress instructions? I witnessed many (if not all) senior officers wearing 1A with Oxford shoes during ceremonies, so I guess there is a permanent instruction coming from COs allowing that mix.

Thanks!


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## dangerboy (9 Nov 2021)

Titix said:


> My understanding of this, as an RCAF junior officer, is that when wearing NO 1A order of dress (ceremonial, medals only), which is what I was directed to wear for attending a 11 Nov ceremony, I do not have the option to wear Oxford shoes, and as a consequence, I shall wear my ankle boots with my 1A DEU. I believe Oxford are appropriate for all NO 3 Service Dress, at the office and for general business.
> 
> What do think of that? Would you say that if not told otherwise, wearing ankle boots with 1A order of dress is in accordance with the dress instructions? I witnessed many (if not all) senior officers wearing 1A with Oxford shoes during ceremonies, so I guess there is a permanent instruction coming from COs allowing that mix.
> 
> Thanks!


Line 29 in Annex E is referring to authorized optional items, the "Patent leather Oxford shoes" they are talking about is the ones similar to what CANEX sells which you don't have to polish. The issued shoes are referred to as "Shoes Leather Black" and they are authorized for wear in 1A, which is why you see them worn on parades by senior officers.


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## Titix (9 Nov 2021)

dangerboy said:


> Line 29 in Annex E is referring to authorized optional items, the "Patent leather Oxford shoes" they are talking about is the ones similar to what CANEX sells which you don't have to polish. The issued shoes are referred to as "Shoes Leather Black" and they are authorized for wear in 1A, which is why you see them worn on parades by senior officers.


It makes sense. Thank you for the quick response.


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## Eye In The Sky (12 Nov 2021)

Just to add;  I've never seen an Officer in the RCAF wear ankle boots (I've been ChairForce since 2007).  Every parade instruction/Admin O I've seen for Wing/Sqn parades have stated "Officers shall wear oxfords, NCMs shall wear ankle boots".   I've also seen "Officers and CWOs shall wear oxfords, MWOs and below shall wear ankle boots".  

If not specifically ordered, I always wear oxfords (issued Shoes Leather Black) with 1A, 3B etc and I'm not quite at the 'senior officer' level (I'm a WO).


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## Zoomie (14 Nov 2021)

Eye In The Sky said:


> Just to add;  I've never seen an Officer in the RCAF wear ankle boots (I've been ChairForce since 2007).  Every parade instruction/Admin O I've seen for Wing/Sqn parades have stated "Officers shall wear oxfords, NCMs shall wear ankle boots".   I've also seen "Officers and CWOs shall wear oxfords, MWOs and below shall wear ankle boots".
> 
> If not specifically ordered, I always wear oxfords (issued Shoes Leather Black) with 1A, 3B etc and I'm not quite at the 'senior officer' level (I'm a WO).


I don’t even know where my ankle boots might be, I’ve only worn oxfords,


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## Eye In The Sky (14 Nov 2021)

Probably the same place your polish is?  😁


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## Navy_Pete (14 Nov 2021)

Or just wear ankle boots as an officer and see what happens...


Eye In The Sky said:


> Probably the same place your polish is?  😁


After a PG and two years in WFH went to help my daughter polish her newly issued cadet ankle boots and realized I have no idea where my polish kit is. And that somehow a glob of silicone grease was dropped in my standby pair of oxfords... Logistitek here I come!


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## Eye In The Sky (17 Nov 2021)

Just throw on some galoshes....GTG!


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## OldSolduer (18 Nov 2021)

When I was in I was promoted to MWO and that is the day I ceased wearing ankle boots on parade. No one said a word.


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## stoker dave (30 Nov 2022)

I recall an urban legend about a shipboard parade when all the sailors were expected to turn out in their best rig.  

Immediately prior to the parade, all the stokers mustered in the engineering workshop.   A quick shot of black spraypaint and all the stoker footwear met the standard of clean and black.


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## Eye In The Sky (30 Nov 2022)

ElroyPatrick72 said:


> You should check this in the Dress Manual. For professional service members, the choice of footwear never depends on personal preference.



I think you would find the direction in 265 is more related to Orders of dress, vice rank of personnel.


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## daftandbarmy (3 Dec 2022)

If you want to recreate the labours of Sisyphus, try polishing brogues.

Spit shining dinosaur hide would probably be an easier task. I'm sure they came up with that as a dress requirement for commissioned ranks in a Scottish unit purely for 'character building' reasons 

I envied the soldiers with their smooth leather shoes/boots.


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## ueo (17 Dec 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> If you want to recreate the labours of Sisyphus, try polishing brogues.
> 
> Spit shining dinosaur hide would probably be an easier task. I'm sure they came up with that as a dress requirement for commissioned ranks in a Scottish unit purely for 'character building' reasons
> 
> I envied the soldiers with their smooth leather shoes/boots.


I(n the big picture, who really cares!


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## daftandbarmy (17 Dec 2022)

ueo said:


> I(n the big picture, who really cares!


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