# Uniforms at RMC



## Calgone

Hello all, 

Just out of curiosity, What I would like to know is what's the day to day uniform is at RMC?

All I could find online is that the cadets at RMC are required to wear a uniform. However the only images I found are of the Scarlet uniforms which I assume are for formal events. 

As well if an Officer Cadet or Naval Cadet wanted to, would they be able to wear CadetPAT? The ripoff of MARPAT.


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## Big Foot

Calgone said:
			
		

> Hello all,
> 
> Just out of curiosity, What I would like to know is what's the day to day uniform is at RMC?
> 
> All I could find online is that the cadets at RMC are required to wear a uniform. However the only images I found are of the Scarlet uniforms which I assume are for formal events.
> 
> As well if an Officer Cadet or Naval Cadet wanted to, would they be able to wear CadetPAT? The ripoff of MARPAT.


The day to day dress at RMC for the current year is what is called 3Bs, which is a pair of wool pants, a short sleeve shirt and depending on the season, a sweater. Next year, a new College dress uniform will be adopted for day to day wear. Furthermore, you would not be permitted to wear CadetPAT. As a member of the CF, you would only be permitted to wear CADPAT as it is the only authorized combat uniform of the Canadian Forces.


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## Calgone

I have searched the "3Bs" online and found no images.
Just so I can try put an image in my head, is it more like a private school uniform or a military uniform?


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## George Wallace

Calgone said:
			
		

> I have searched the "3Bs" online and found no images.
> Just so I can try put an image in my head, is it more like a private school uniform or a military uniform?



It is the Military Uniform of the Canadian Forces.  It would be DEU, (Distinctive Environmental Uniform) in a "Order of Dress" called "3B"; which was as Big Foot described above.


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## Calgone

Alright, Thanks!


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## dimsum

Big Foot said:
			
		

> *Next year, a new College dress uniform will be adopted for day to day wear.*



Just out of curiosity, what's the new uniform going to be?


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## Lumber

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Just out of curiosity, what's the new uniform going to be?



From a friend of mine who sat on a committee evaluating the new uniform:

Black Pants with Red Stripe (similar to 4s pants, maybe they will even use the 4s pants).
White, short sleeve shirt.
Black jacket similar to the "Canex" jacket with two crest: one RMC crest and one squadron crest.
Either a black with red strip Kepi (wedge) or black with red band Forge Cap.

Can anyone confirm this?


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## Lumber

Calgone said:
			
		

> As well if an Officer Cadet or Naval Cadet wanted to, would they be able to wear CadetPAT? The ripoff of MARPAT.



Why would any self-respecting O/NCdt want to wear CadetPAT?


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## medaid

Why would any self-respecting cadet want to wear CadetPAT?


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## Calgone

I don't know why one would choose to wear CadetPAT, it was more of a hypothetical question.


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## dimsum

What, pray tell, is CadetPAT?


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## Michael OLeary

Dimsum said:
			
		

> What, pray tell, is CadetPAT?



Did you try a search?


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## Outrak

Calgone said:
			
		

> I have searched the "3Bs" online and found no images.
> Just so I can try put an image in my head, is it more like a private school uniform or a military uniform?



If you found a picture would you mind posting a link?


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## Big Foot

For those of you who have been asking, this is the standard CF 3B uniform with the RMC brassard on the left sleeve.


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## medaid

Big Foot said:
			
		

> For those of you who have been asking, this is the standard CF 3B uniform with the RMC brassard on the left sleeve.



BF that shirt's WAY too big on you LOL  ;D


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## Outrak

thanks for the pic
not at all what i envisioned


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## Calgone

Yeah thanks for the picture BF. It was not what I had pictured.

Another question though, at any point in time do the cadets at RMC wear CADPAT?


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## benny88

MedTech said:
			
		

> BF that shirt's WAY too big on you LOL  ;D




   Ugh, don't get me started on those shirts. 1/2 Inch too small in the neck, swimmin' in the rest.


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## Dirty Patricia

benny88 said:
			
		

> Ugh, don't get me started on those shirts. 1/2 Inch too small in the neck, swimmin' in the rest.



That shirt is horrible.  Besides the bad cut and cheap material is that nasty colour.  We (the Army) need a much sharper uniform.


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## medaid

Agreed! The US Army shirts looks pretty sharp ;D they look pretty similar too!


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## Big Foot

Calgone said:
			
		

> Another question though, at any point in time do the cadets at RMC wear CADPAT?


At the current point in time, Mondays and Wednesdays are designated as Operational Dress for Dress of the Day. What this means is that naval personnel wear Naval Combat Dress, Aircrew personnel who have been issued flightsuits wear flightsuits and the remainder of the Air Force personnel and Amry personnel wear CADPAT.


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## Calgone

Thanks for your answers BF, thy are much appreciated.


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## Dirty Patricia

MedTech said:
			
		

> Agreed! The US Army shirts looks pretty sharp ;D they look pretty similar too!



I have to say that the US Army shirts are pretty much as ugly as ours.  They are getting rid of them though, to switch to a grey shirt as part of their blue (the traditional colour of the US Army) ASU.  As mentioned in a _Uniform_ thread, I would like to see the Army adopt a Khaki service dress.  It looks "Army" and is the tradional colour of Commonwealth armies since the beginning of the 20th century.


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## benny88

Calgone said:
			
		

> Thanks for your answers BF, *thy* are much appreciated.




  Baaahaha sorry Calgone I don't mean to make fun, but for a second I thought you were speaking in Ye Olde English.

  Agreed to the khaki service dress DirtyPat, I think that would be sharp, but that's for another thread.


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## medaid

Dirty Patricia said:
			
		

> I have to say that the US Army shirts are pretty much as ugly as ours.  They are getting rid of them though, to switch to a grey shirt as part of their blue (the traditional colour of the US Army) ASU.  As mentioned in a _Uniform_ thread, I would like to see the Army adopt a Khaki service dress.  It looks "Army" and is the tradional colour of Commonwealth armies since the beginning of the 20th century.



It's true that they're as ugly in colour but they fit so much better! I would like the khaki service dress as well, and a return to patrols for the Army.


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## Calgone

I was couldn't you tell? Haha


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## dwalter

benny88 said:
			
		

> Baaahaha sorry Calgone I don't mean to make fun, but for a second I thought you were speaking in *Ye Olde* English.
> 
> Agreed to the khaki service dress DirtyPat, I think that would be sharp, but that's for another thread.



OK I just have to make a funny comment about the word "Ye" because my professor made a long rant about it last week. One of the people in my class used that word, and when he read his essay out loud he pronounced it "Yee", just like it's spelled right? Wrong! We found out it is actually pronounced "The" even though it is spelled "Ye" because in Olde English there are a few extra letters that no longer exist in modern English. One such letter looked a bit like a "Y", but it made a "Th" sound. 

And that is your random lesson of the day  Now back to your regular posts!


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## bms

Yep, khaki looks amazing:







 I mean, for all those who watched the feature film of Shake Hands with the Devil, the uniform Roy Dupuis(LGen Romeo Dallaire) wore when addressing the people before the UN flag was hoisted. It looked stellar...


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## medaid

If they're goin to have khakis then they should bring back the waist belt too. I know... I'm stretching it but the Sam Brown isn't bad either


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## Blackadder1916

bms said:
			
		

> Yep, khaki looks amazing:
> I mean, for all those who watched the feature film of Shake Hands with the Devil, the uniform Roy Dupuis(LGen Romeo Dallaire) wore when addressing the people before the UN flag was hoisted. It looked stellar...



I haven't seen the film, but I hear that the uniforms are accurate.  From contemporary photos and the few times I saw him over there, Dallaire usually wore "tropical tans".  This is still an authorized order of dress and still issued (?).  I've still got a duffle bag full of it, they even gave me more when I went to Texas for a US Army course. 

A-AD-265-000/AG-001 Canadian Forces Dress Instructions, Chapter 2, Section 1


> 19. When authorized, special tropical clothing shall be issued to all personnel upon posting or deployment to a tropical or hot climate location.  Special tropical orders of dress include:
> 
> a. *No. 3D tropical tan service dress*; and
> b. No. 5D tropical shipboard, operational dress.


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## Blackadder1916

College to implement changing of the garb 
 http://www.thewhig.com/PrintArticle.aspx?e=989922


> Cadets at Royal Military College will be getting a makeover this September.
> 
> The college is changing its standard daily uniform for cadets, moving away from the daily dress that indicates the branch of the service they will be entering in favour of a new standard uniform that all cadets will wear and that will only be worn by RMC cadets. The new uniform will be black pants or skirt, a white shirt with a black top for colder weather and a forge cap.
> 
> Cadets will wear the new uniform four days a week and, on the fifth day, which is devoted to their individual military training, they will wear the uniform of their branch, whether that be army, navy or air force.
> 
> Maj. Bruce MacLean, who oversaw the committee of cadets who recommended the new uniform, said the change was ordered last year by Brig.-Gen. Tom Lawson, the commandant of RMC, and was intended to create a spirit of cohesion among cadets.
> 
> "It was the cadets themselves who designed this uniform," MacLean said, noting that the group of 13 was heavily weighted toward third-year officer cadets, who were at the college the last time the dress of the day was changed in 2006 and will be wearing the new uniform during their senior year.
> 
> "I'm actually impressed by what they came up with - I think it looks pretty sharp."
> 
> The committee evaluated four designs, including the cadet dress that would be familiar to longtime Kingstonians of a blazer, grey pants and a tie, which was abandoned years ago.
> 
> The uniform, which will be issued to all cadets at the school as early as this fall, was judged on comfort, appearance, cost and ease of issue. The prototypes are currently at DND headquarters in Ottawa in preparation for manufacture.
> 
> The uniforms will be visible around town: first-year cadets are required to be in uniform at all times, while more senior cadets are allowed to wear civilian clothes into the city. In previous years, only the fourth-year cadets had the privilege of wearing civilian clothes off-campus.
> 
> While anyone who owns a black jacket or a sweater is keenly aware that the fabric shows up every loose piece of lint or dirt, MacLean said it won't present an undue burden on the cadets, who are accustomed to keen-eyed inspection.
> 
> "They're used to it," he said with a laugh. "When you wear a uniform, you get used to keeping it a certain way."


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## Lumber

The newest issue of the RMC Club's online magazine, eVeritas, had an article about the new uniforms. eVeritas allows anyone to post comments on these articles. The head of the RMC Club, Bill Oliver, sent an email out to the cadet wing here at RMC asking cadets to comment on the article, because the ex-cadets wanted to know what we thought of it. A few ex-cadets had already commented, but after the e-mail was sent out, the number of comments increased dramatically. While the initial comments by ex-cadets were definitely for the new college uniforms, the opinions of the current cadets was not so 'uniform'...ha I just made a pun! Anyways, it turned into an intense debate between cadets who were glad to see a new uniform, and cadets who are absolutely appalled at having to wear anything else but a CF uniform on a day to day basis. There were many good points by each side, but in the end if you did a count--and counting only RMC cadets, not the ex-cadets--it was about 60%-40% against the uniform. The real interesting thing is shortly thereafter the comments were removed and replaced with a message by Bill Oliver stating:



> Thanks to all who submitted feedback on this article.
> 
> We have now received sufficient comments.
> 
> Bill Oliver



Justs how much is a sufficient amount of comments? Or did they not expect us (that a general 'us', not me specifically) to be so vehemently against a college uniform, and now they are censoring the comment section to avoid giving the ex-cadets heart attacks?

EDIT: I'm not positive Bill Oliver is the head of the RMC club, but he is certainly very involved in it. I've searched but can't find out exactly what his position is.


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## Strike

Lumber said:
			
		

> Justs how much is a sufficient amount of comments? Or did they not expect us (that a general 'us', not me specifically) to be so vehemently against a college uniform, and now they are censoring the comment section to avoid giving the ex-cadets heart attacks?



I don't see a 60/40 split being vehemently opposed.  Actually, It's probably a very good sign that in a few years, it will turn on the pro side.

As for removing the posts, maybe it has something to do with not wanting to start a flame war or lack of bandwitdth.  Seems to make sense to me.

By the way, those uniforms are earily similar to what I wore when I went through.  The only problem we had was having shiny pants because we used too hot a setting on the iron.  Now, if they would only bring back the cape!  That things was the bomb!


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## bms

Wow, that uniform looks amazing. Distinct and elegant.


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## RangerRay

Back to the future?  It's pretty similar to the early 90's, except the FS cap didn't have the red piping, and there were navy blue/black battledress blouses instead of the more modern looking jacket.


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## lex luger

Can someone please tell me the purpose of the red sash?


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## Strike

The shoulder sash represents a 3-bar position and the waist sash is a 4-bar position.


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## Vagrant

As an RMC hopeful, I must say that I really like the uniform. It gives some distinction to the cadets of the RMC and it looks quite sharp.


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## AmphibousAssult

Just me or are the only people who like this thing the ones not wearing it, I joined the CF, not RMC. I want to dress like a member of the CF, not a member of a boys club.


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## George Wallace

Marksman said:
			
		

> Just me or are the only people who like this thing the ones not wearing it, I joined the CF, not RMC. I want to dress like a member of the CF, not a member of a boys club.



You haven't heard?


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## cavalryman

Marksman said:
			
		

> Just me or are the only people who like this thing the ones not wearing it, I joined the CF, not RMC. I want to dress like a member of the CF, not a member of a boys club.



This coming from someone whose profile indicates affiliation to a Highland Regiment, i.e. kilts and all instead of CF standard dress... :  RMC uniforms are just like regimental uniforms, and yes, I wore those uniforms in my distant youth, so I know of what I speak, and I agree with the move to reinstate RMC uniforms.


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## AmphibousAssult

Highland kit is designed to create a sense of identity within a unit, what is the point of creating a sense of identity within a unit where the units sole purpose is to send its members to other units? This seems counter-productive to me. ???


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## Drummy

Marksman said:
			
		

> Just me or are the only people who like this thing the ones not wearing it, I joined the CF, not RMC. I want to dress like a member of the CF, not a member of a boys club.



To me, that reads as if you would like to see everyone in the same uniform(Navy, Army, and Airforce). Oh boy, something new!  

Drummy


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## AmphibousAssult

In case you did not read my past post directly above yours I'm also all for fostering unit identity, something unification uniforms did a poor job of doing. However as previously stated "what is the point of creating a sense of identity within a unit where the units sole purpose is to send its members to other units? This seems counterproductive to me."


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## tabernac

Marksman said:
			
		

> In case you did not read my past post directly above yours I'm also all for fostering unit identity, something unification uniforms did a poor job of doing. However as previously stated "what is the point of creating a sense of identity within a unit where the units sole purpose is to send its members to other units? This seems counterproductive to me."



On the eVeritas site it went into greater detail as to why the switch from elemental uniforms being common place as Dress of the Day, to this RMC only uniform. As opposed to Squadrons fostering their own unique groups, which would be expected, people were breaking off into their own elemental splinter fractions, transcending, and excluding Squadron lines. IMO, thats not how you foster Esprit de Corps. Apparently someone agrees.

Being someone who'll be wearing this uniform next year, I want to see something less "technical" then the jacket, which looks like the Navy CANEX jacket. I've seen older pictures of the battledress blouses, and they looked better, more professional.

Now I'm kinda getting ahead of myself, but a black forage/peak cap w/ red piping would be nice too..


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## garb811

Marksman said:
			
		

> In case you did not read my past post directly above yours I'm also all for fostering unit identity, something unification uniforms did a poor job of doing. However as previously stated "what is the point of creating a sense of identity within a unit where the units sole purpose is to send its members to other units? This seems counterproductive to me."


By that standard, you could say the same thing about Reserve units, no?


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## AmphibousAssult

cheeky_monkey, have you ever been to RMC? I've lived and worked here for the past two years, and I can tell you with great certainty that no elemental factions exist (I'm army, most of my buddies are chair...errr I mean air force) and as for squadron identity that is something that occurs at the squadron level, not at the college level. My squadron for example regularly has squadron events, where we have the chance to meet and socialize amongst ourselves. I know for a fact that this does not occur as regularly in other squadrons and the effect on their cohesion is noticeable, a new uniform wont change this.

garb811, No, reserve units on occasion do deploy as formed units. Their performance on operation and in training is directly realted to their unit cohesion, they are also not solely a recruiting ground for reg force units.


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## Blackadder1916

Marksman, by your hypotheses RMC should also dispense with the scarlets and organ grinder monkey's hat as that uniform does not reflect the distinctive nature of cadets intending to go to the navy and air force.  Perhaps RMC should be done away with altogether by your reasoning.  You stressed the point that it is "counterproductive" to dress the inmates of RMC in the same garb as its "sole purpose is to send its members to other units".  Strange, I thought RMC was established "for the purpose of providing a complete education in all branches of military tactics, fortification, engineering, and general scientific knowledge in subjects connected with and necessary to thorough knowledge of the military profession".  

Graduates of that institution seem proud (well, they proclaim it often enough) of their heritage in producing leaders for the "Canadian Forces and our nation".  Producing leaders for the Canadian Forces, not spitting out infantry officers, or logisticians or naval officers or pilots.  Those are the roles of other CF units.  If a focus of RMC (which I personally believe it has lost) is to produce the kind of military professional that will one day "lead" at the higher echelons of the CF (not individual, single environment units), then should not that education and socialization begin at RMC.  It may be a simple thing, but clothing all the same may instill a sense that all (whether they end up army, navy or air force) have a common goal.  Hopefully, twenty or thirty years down the road when they are working with (or for) someone in a different uniform they may be sensible enough to not automatically judge others by the uniform they wear.  

Besides, having a distinctive cadet dress makes it easier to identify them as what they are.  RMC cadets.


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## Big Foot

Marksman said:
			
		

> cheeky_monkey, have you ever been to RMC? I've lived and worked here for the past two years, and I can tell you with great certainty that no elemental factions exist (I'm army, most of my buddies are chair...errr I mean air force) and as for squadron identity that is something that occurs at the squadron level, not at the college level. My squadron for example regularly has squadron events, where we have the chance to meet and socialize amongst ourselves. I know for a fact that this does not occur as regularly in other squadrons and the effect on their cohesion is noticeable, a new uniform wont change this.
> 
> garb811, No, reserve units on occasion do deploy as formed units. Their performance on operation and in training is directly realted to their unit cohesion, they are also not solely a recruiting ground for reg force units.


Marksman, in my four years at RMC, I have seen a lot of change, perhaps the most negative being the removal of the #5s. The distinctive college dress uniform enstilled a great sense of pride in me when I wore it. It also reinforced the chain of command at the college by allowing barmen to visibly display their "badge of office" even when wearing a jacket. I can say that as a senior barman, there has been a great deterioration, especially among the younger years, in terms of respect for seniority and for bar positions. As an example, this past semester, I was correcting a first year cadet for improper dress and instead of simply heeding my order, he straight out questioned me as to who I was and why I was giving him the order. In my first and second year, I noticed that people tended to pay a lot more attention to what CFLs, CSTOs and CSSs had to say because they could blatantly see that the person addressing them was a person in a position of authority. In my mind, RMC is a proud institution with a proud history and is a distinctive unit within the CF and I see no reason why we can't return to a DoD which is unique to RMC. The DCdts buzzword of cohesion is very key. Since the change from 5s to 3Bs as the DoD, there has been a shift from overall cohesion within the scope of a single RMC identity to a divided wing which identifies more with their elements than with their squadrons or with the College in general. I applaud the move back to #5s.


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## garb811

Marksman said:
			
		

> garb811, No, reserve units on occasion do deploy as formed _*sub-*_units. Their performance on operation and in training is directly realted to their unit cohesion, they are also not solely a recruiting ground for reg force units.


There, fixed that for you.  

Like it or not, reserve units, even in the best case scenario, are only able to mount sub-unit sized elements.  Like it or not reserve units currently exist to augment other units and formations, either at the individual augmentee or sub-/sub-sub-/sub-sub-sub unit level or to form a ad-hoc unit with other reserve sub-units.  

Additionally, RMC cadets will spend more time in their distinctive uniform during their time at RMC than an average reserve member will spend in their distinctive uniform in their entire career.


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## aesop081

Marksman said:
			
		

> (I'm army, most of my buddies are chair...errr I mean air force)



That joke might mean something if you had any experience to back it up.


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## AmphibousAssult

CDN Aviator- If you're looking for members with a lack of experience there are much easier targets on this board, also my experience is relevant to this topic, If you have anything you would like to say to me about my humour which is not relevant to this topic, its called a PM

garb811- Agreed, reserves are primarily augmentees, however training is conducted at the unit level, as a unit, and cohesion is relative to this end.

Big Foot- Your bar position is displayed directly on your brassard while in elemental dress, (lets not get into CADPAT as that will most likely stick around despite the new uniform, and since neither of us knows lets not speculate.) If you disagree with overt elemental cohesion (if there is any to begin with) why do we have EPT? 

Blackadder1916- We already have enough distinctive uniforms. This is a pointless waste of money that could be better spent on training the cadets in pertinent fields (like perhaps more then 60 rounds out of the C7 on the range once a year). Yes RMC is an education with a difference and yes it does train the leaders of tomorrow... who must first all participate in a regular unit until they are finished the duration of their contract. RMC is a course, at the end we receive a course report, a commission and a degree. The uniform I wear during my university will not change the way I think down the road. Whatever happened to if it ain't broke don't fix it? And as for judging someone by the uniform they wear, I honestly have no idea where this hypothesis of yours came from. In my degree program I have friends from all three different elements that I work with on a continuous basis, as do all degree programs. I have yet to meet anyone here who judges someone based on the colour of their uniform.


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## breezie

Daft question, but does anyone know if women have to wear the skirt, or can we wear pants if we wish? Just wondering. ;D


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## Good2Golf

Marksman said:
			
		

> CDN Aviator- If you're looking for members with a lack of experience there are much easier targets on this board, also my experience is relevant to this topic, If you have anything you would like to say to me about my humour which is not relevant to this topic, its called a PM



Marksman, CDN Aviator is not looking for targets, he is addressing your slagging the air force with what, by your profile, would seem to be minimal experience of that environment.



			
				Marksman said:
			
		

> garb811- Agreed, reserves are primarily augmentees, however training is conducted at the unit level, as a unit, and cohesion is relative to this end.



...but as Garb noted, not operationally employed at the unit level.



			
				Marksman said:
			
		

> Big Foot- Your bar position is displayed directly on your brassard while in elemental dress, (lets not get into CADPAT as that will most likely stick around despite the new uniform, and since neither of us knows lets not speculate.) If you disagree with overt elemental cohesion (if there is any to begin with) why do we have EPT?



Big Foot was speaking to the issue of visibility of the appointment of cadet officers as likely improving what he has noted as a degradation in respect shown to senior cadets.  Yes, bars are also on the brassard, but his point was more about the visibility of the insignia and its "appreciation".



			
				Marksman said:
			
		

> Blackadder1916- We already have enough distinctive uniforms. This is a pointless waste of money that could be better spent on training the cadets in pertinent fields (like perhaps more then 60 rounds out of the C7 on the range once a year). Yes RMC is an education with a difference and yes it does train the leaders of tomorrow... who must first all participate in a regular unit until they are finished the duration of their contract. RMC is a course, at the end we receive a course report, a commission and a degree. The uniform I wear during my university will not change the way I think down the road. Whatever happened to if it ain't broke don't fix it? And as for judging someone by the uniform they wear, I honestly have no idea where this hypothesis of yours came from. In my degree program I have friends from all three different elements that I work with on a continuous basis, as do all degree programs. I have yet to meet anyone here who judges someone based on the colour of their uniform.



RMC is a "course"...?  What I wear at "university"...?  Ain't broke, don't fix it...?  No idea where judging someone by the uniform they wear came from?

At least one can say that your view of things is....well, yours.  We think we've got it...perhaps some listening silence, or at least a slightly less combatitive style might be in order.

G2G
_ _ 3 0


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## a78jumper

Believe Bill Oliver is the Exec Director of the RMC Club. As for a distictive college uniform, I would have despised wearing the Navy uniform twelve months of the year-doing so on summer training was about all I could take, though at least it was the green CF work dress, and our dress uniform S-3 was also green. (Dating myself). I sold the p[tional whites I was forced to purchase so some MARS guy could get rigged out as a navy wanna be on trafalgar Day. There is a lot of shifting that goes on from element to element while people decide what they really want to do, vs what some recruiter decided based on quotas imho, thus one tri service college uniform seems to fit the requirement.  The battle blouse was a good piece of kit though some people -taller ones- looked better in it than others.


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## NovaScotiaNewfie

Calgone...CADPAT is not a rip off of MARPAT...CADPAT came out first...and the Canadian Government helped provide some material to help the USMC Design MARPAT (http://www.hyperstealth.com/CADPAT-MARPAT.htm)..I have no idea as to the validity of the claim..but CADPAT did come out first.


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## NovaScotiaNewfie

Whoops I might have read that wrong..when you said "CadetPAT" I thought it was a play on words for CADPAT....if I misread I appoligize.


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## cavalryman

Marksman,

It does appear that you don't get the concept of cohesion.  One common uniform for the unit.  I'm in an armour unit and everyone gets to wear the black beret, whether they're armour or not.  RMC has a proud tradition, one that is almost as old as this country, and part of that tradition is a distinct uniform, one based on older orders of dress that recall this proud tradition.  There  is a reason RMC has the right of the line on any parade - seniority in the regular service (founded 1876 - seven years prior to the founding date of the RCD and The RCR, the senior regiments of armour and infantry).  The kind of thinking you're displaying in this thread would have been unheard of when I went through (and I am a graduate, in case I haven't made that clear in my last post) and if this is common at the College these days, there is something lacking in the teaching of officership.


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## Lumber

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Marksman, by your hypotheses RMC should also dispense with the scarlets and organ grinder monkey's hat as that uniform does not reflect the distinctive nature of cadets intending to go to the navy and air force.  Perhaps RMC should be done away with altogether by your reasoning.  You stressed the point that it is "counterproductive" to dress the inmates of RMC in the same garb as its "sole purpose is to send its members to other units".



Lets not make any brash decisions. I will not say we absolutely need one, nor that we absolutely need the other; we need both.

I think we need we need to identify both as members of the CF (firstly) and as members of the institutions (secondly). The cap badge, the 4s, the Scarlets and our brassards all serve to identify us as RMC cadets, and sufficiently so, I would like to assert. If we are looking for something that will instill a common feeling of pride and accomplishment, we already have it; when we stand at attention together in Scarlets during graduation, we all know what we have gone through together, and what that place represents. 


The goal of being an Officer in the CF should be, IMO, the foremost concern and focus for us cadets, and as such the the CF uniforms should be the DOD, to remind us of this goal. 

NOTE: for those who will say "but you will get to wear your elemental dress once a week" <--- thats what it claims in the article. First, it's will be combats, and second, it will will be on Wednesday and because of Wednesday PMT we will all be wearing our beautiful pickle suits, NAVY included.

I know its been beaten to death but I half to seriously reiterate that the claim that the elemental uniforms caused elemental "cohesion", and that there is no Squadron cohesion. Hogwash! Insanity! Lies! B-S! Seriously though, who came up with this? Has he ever been to a Sports Day? Or to an IM game that pits squadron against squadron? Flag Party competition? The Obstacle Course?! None of my best friends are in the Navy, nor do I ever see anyone associating with people of only one element.

Big Foot: This is a whole other discussion in itself, but I'm not sure making bar positions more visible will make a difference. The disrespect he showed you, and that has been shown on other occasions, is despicable and totally unacceptable, but has more to do with the character of the people involved. The importance of the bar positions needs to be made more apparent, but at the same time those holding the bar positions need to make it clear that 1. they care about what they're doing, and 2. that they are competent leaders. I don't know you, so I won't make any judgments, but you seem like a keen fellow; however, some of those holding bar positions and the quality with which the perform there duties makes it hard to feel respect for the bar slate, wouldn't you agree? Attitude reflects leadership. (at the same time though, the cadet you were correcting was probably an arrogant a**)



			
				Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Graduates of that institution seem proud (well, they proclaim it often enough) of their heritage in producing leaders for the "Canadian Forces _*and our nation*_".



The focus is on the CF. This is one of the complaints of Ex-Cadets; the focus of RMC is no longer on producing "leaders" but producing "military leaders". They think that the "M" in RMC has become to prevalent. I'm not talking out of my arse here either, it was a matter of discussion on the Veritas website.



			
				Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Strange, I thought RMC was established "for the purpose of providing a complete education in all branches of military tactics, fortification, engineering, and general scientific knowledge in subjects connected with and necessary to thorough knowledge of the military profession".



Military tactics, fortification, engineering (I assume the military kind)? Maybe on course, but not at RMC.  



			
				Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Besides, having a distinctive cadet dress makes it easier to identify them as what they are.  RMC cadets.



But how far does it go? Should the RCR have its own distinctive uniform to make it easier to identify them as they are? Members of the RCR? Should 2 RCR have its own distinctive uniform to make it easier to identify them as they are? Members of the 2 RCR?Should M COY, 2 RCR have its own distinctive uniform to make it easier to identify them as they are? Members of the M COY, 2 RCR?  :-\


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## AmphibousAssult

HERE HERE LUMBER!!!! (thats for being more articulate than I). Beers on me!!!!


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## Lumber

Marksman said:
			
		

> Beers on me!!!!



Oh really? See you in two seconds!


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## AmphibousAssult

THE BEERS WERE ON YOU!!!!!!!!


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## Scothern

Hopefully not to cause more debate, but wrt the new uniforms, anyone know what the UTPNCM standard of dress is/will be?

Thanks


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## SupersonicMax

Don't know first hand, but 2 years ago, before that whole DEU thing came on, UTs wore 3Bs.  

Max


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## Gunner98

breezie said:
			
		

> Daft question, but does anyone know if women have to wear the skirt, or can we wear pants if we wish? Just wondering. ;D



Skirts are not issued clothing on enrollment, only pants.  Those acquiring them through LogistikUnicorp site have the option to don them when dress of the day items such as DEU 3s are worn.  They are not normally worn while on formal parades. 

Interesting Maple Leaf article at http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/community/MapleLeaf/article_e.asp?id=4222


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