# Afghan Rapes & Canadian Soldiers' Duty



## The Bread Guy (16 Jun 2008)

Shared with the usual disclaimer - remember, none of this proven through the courts at this point.  More on the issue elsewhere in AFG below....

*Don't look, don't tell, troops told*
Civilian sex assaults by Afghan soldiers ignored
Rick Westhead, Toronto Star, 16 Jun 08
Article link

Canadian soldiers serving in Afghanistan have been ordered by commanding officers "to ignore" incidents of sexual assault among the civilian population, says a military chaplain who counsels troops returning home with post-traumatic stress disorder.

The chaplain, Jean Johns, says she recently counselled a Canadian soldier who said he witnessed a boy being raped by an Afghan soldier, then wrote a report on the allegation for her brigade chaplain.

In her March report, which she says should have been advanced "up the chain of command," Johns says the corporal told her that Canadian troops have been ordered by commanding officers "to ignore" incidents of sexual assault. Johns hasn't received a reply to the report.

While several Canadian Forces chaplains say other soldiers have made similar claims, Department of National Defence lawyers have argued Canada isn't obliged to investigate because none of the soldiers has made a formal complaint, says a senior Canadian officer familiar with the matter.

"It's ridiculous," the officer says. "We have an ethical and moral responsibility to pursue this, not to shut our eyes to it because it would make it more difficult to work with the Afghan government.

"We're supposed to be in Afghanistan to help people who are being victimized."

The independent claims bolster the credibility of an account provided by Cpl. Travis Schouten, a Canadian soldier who served in Afghanistan from September 2006 through early 2007 and now suffers from severe post-traumatic stress disorder .....



*AFGHANISTAN: Little support for victims of child sexual abuse*
UN news service, 16 Jun 08
Article link

Ten-year-old Sweeta still remembers the most painful moments of her life when a bulky 35-year-old man raped her in his office in the town of Sheberghan, Jowzjan Province, in northern Afghanistan.

At around 10am on 31 January 2008 a vehicle with the markings and number plate of the Afghan National Army (ANA) stopped near a water-point where Sweeta was filling her buckets, according to the Afghanistan Human Right Organisation (AHRO).

“The three men in the car grabbed her and drove to an army barracks where the commander raped her in his office,” said Lal Gul Lal, chairman of AHRO, who has provided legal support to the victim’s family.

The child was semi-conscious when the rapist dropped her home with some gifts, lying to her elder sister that she was hit by a car and was experiencing abdominal bleeding.

“She [Sweeta] was threatened that if she told anyone about the incident they would kill her parents,” Lal told IRIN in Kabul.

But it soon became clear that the girl had been raped, and this was later confirmed by local doctors.

For a whole week after the incident Sweeta’s father knocked on various government doors, trying to obtain justice, but only received verbal sympathy.

The situation changed when he approached AHRO and local and national media got wind of the story. Despite strong opposition from some influential figures, the rapist was arrested and brought to court in Kabul ....

_- edited to fix links -_


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## xena (16 Jun 2008)

I know I've been out for about eight years now, but what the heck has changed recently?

When I went through Cornwallis, we were specifically taught about legal orders and illegal orders, the differences between them and given some suggestions of what to do if we were ever given illegal orders.  It was all rather clear - and I'm not that particularly bright, so I don't think it's a difficult idea to understand.  For the record, I was never given an illegal order, so I've not had to face this particular dilemma.

If, and I emphasize _*IF*_, soldiers were ordered to ignore violent crimes like this, that would constitute an illegal order would it not?  Basically, one cannot be ordered to commit what would be a crime in Canada (acts of war notwithstanding).  Not reporting a witnessed rape is making yourself party to the crime, and therefore a crime in and of itself.  No soldier would be bound by the NDA, or any other regulation, to obey such an order.

I'm just saying that I can't see a Canadian soldier *not* reporting something like this;  nor can I see a Canadian commander of _*any level * _ ordering stuff like this to *not* be reported.

Then again, I couldn't have imagined one of us torturing to death someone who broke into the compound either...


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## Jarnhamar (16 Jun 2008)

xena said:
			
		

> Then again, I couldn't have imagined one of us torturing to death someone who broke into the compound either...





> Summary - xena  	Picture/Text
> Name: 	xena
> /../
> Notes: 	Generally not too bright. Has a tendency speak up with unnecessary information confirming all suspicisions that he is an idiot.



 ;D


RE the article. Probably easier said than done (changing their views on sex, abuse and what's generally accepted by their people)

I figure all soldiers should report everything they see, doing their part, and then it's up to the higher ups to deal with it at their level.

It's like the whole drug thing. We're saying drugs are bad mmm kay?  Their saying we've been doing this stuff since before your country existed.  Tricky thing to bring about change.


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## xena (16 Jun 2008)

Yeah, cultural differences are a given.

But I'd just be flabbergasted if I was ever ordered to NOT report something like this.  It's different if I reported it and it went nowhere.  That happens everyday.

I was wondering if the distinction between legal and illegal orders was still being taught.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glad you liked my description of myself.  Worked long and hard over many years to earn that.   :

Generally, I spent ten years in, went nowhere in rank because I had this uncanny ability to say what I actually thought.  Good for venting frustrations, not so good for the career thing.


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## Teddy Ruxpin (16 Jun 2008)

While I won't comment on _current_ ROE, ROE in other theatres (and I'm thinking Bosnia here) specifically included the obligation and authority to intervene when soldiers witnessed "major criminal activity"...

And why are padres sharing the results of their counselling sessions with the media?

Just sayin'...


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## The Bread Guy (16 Jun 2008)

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> And why are padres sharing the results of their counselling sessions with the media?



Since the parde didn't release a name (only a rank), it appears the parents, as well as what appears to be the boss of a peer-to-peer counselling pgm, have spilled more beans....  

That said, it appears the right things are in motion:



> Maj. Paul Doucette, a Canadian Forces spokesperson, says the military is aware only (one) allegation and intends to investigate. Doucette didn't say why an investigation hasn't already taken place.  (The individual) last month described the assault while testifying to the parliamentary subcommittee on national defence.  The testimony was given behind closed doors during a meeting in camera.  Doucette said in an emailed statement that "specific additional information would be required before any such issue could be raised with Afghan officials. However, allegations of this type of behaviour would be an issue for Afghan authorities to address under Afghan law."  Asked if Canadian Forces personnel are prevented from intervening in cases of abuse because of rules of engagement, Doucette wrote, "the general purpose of ROEs is to control the use of force by military forces in conducting their operations.  "All Canadian Forces members, whatever their rank and trade, are trained to inform their chain of command of significant incidents, especially when an incident clearly calls for decisions beyond their level of authority."


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## johnnycanuck (16 Jun 2008)

I've been told there is no word for pedophelia in Pashto..as only men have rights(the father would have to claim the crime was against him and his chattel) and his status determines the level of  his believability and quite often blood/hush money is seen as the remedy whether the true victim agrees or not.SLOWLY WE CAN CHANGE A THOUSAND YEAR OLD WAY OF THINKING BUT IF ENLIGHTENMENT(CHANGE ) COMES IN A BRILLIANT FLASH ,THEY WILL TURN AWAY FROM IT .we can only note the slow change in their mores and customs and these changes are happening slowly ie. female parlimentarian ,acceptance of our female soldiers in command positions ,even accepting med aid from a female.We have to tread carefully so as not to be too overbearing as we are guests in their country.
Our presence and influenence are needed to help guide this nation toward modern standards.
Just remember the culture shock when you first joined from civvie-land,now imagine it a thousand fold-ONE PLANET,TWO DIFFERENT WORLDS


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## GAP (16 Jun 2008)

Nowhere in this story do I find that Canadian soldiers witnessed the rape, but simply were brought the accusation that it happened. 

Is it then not an Afghan Police matter, as they are the civil authorities in the area? Why is the expectation such that Canadian soldiers should pursue the issue?


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## johnnycanuck (16 Jun 2008)

and before we get all high and mighty,do the names Clinton, Kobe and Barnardo ring a bell -only one got what was coming ; guess who wasn't a celebrity...SO how different are we on this side of the pond ?


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## Jarnhamar (16 Jun 2008)

Are you actually comparing an affair with both parties concenting (culminating in oral sex) with what Paul Bernado did??


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## johnnycanuck (16 Jun 2008)

pull pin and throw-
sex abuse in all its forms is not about the sex ;it is a crime of power and violence ,and 'the blue dress 'was the least of bill's transgressions and mrs. bryants $2 million dollar ring wasn't ashura to his wife.....trying to stay relatively close to topic


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## The Bread Guy (17 Jun 2008)

A bit more grist for the mill - shared with the usual disclaimer.  My question - why wasn't this column written last summer?

*Defending freedom to abuse*
Police rape of Afghan boys ignored
Don Martin, National Post,  17 Jun 08
Article link

Canadian soldiers in the main guard tower at forward operating base Wilson last summer winced when I asked about the sudden lineup of teenage boys along the mud walls of the neighbouring Afghan market.

"Wait a few minutes. You'll see," said one, his lip curling. "It's disgusting."

Sure enough, a handful of uniformed Afghan police officers emerged from their rundown detachment, walked through the barricades and started chatting up the dozen or so teens, some looking decidedly pre-teen.

A few minutes after they returned, the selected kids were waved through the main gates and went straight inside the police station. An hour later, when I left the observation post, the boys were still inside.

This evening ritual is often derided by soldiers as man-love Thursdays.

Afghan officials insist the notion of men and boys getting together the night before the Muslim holy day for sex is a myth. And, sure, it's theoretically possible the cops were merely good-deed-doers giving these teens reading lessons.

But Canadian soldiers insisted we had just witnessed the regular Thursday evening negotiation for sex between Afghan men and boys, apparently for gifts or money.

It raises the disquieting question of how much responsibility Canadian soldiers shoulder, being military guests and all, to stop Afghan activity that would result in rape or child prostitution charges back home.

It should be stressed that the activity at FOB Wilson does not mean Afghan police and army officers are engaged in an epidemic of juvenile sodomy.

But the issue was given fresh legs last week by a military chaplain named Jean Johns, who reported that soldiers under treatment for posttraumatic stress syndrome had been told to "ignore" any assaults or rapes on Afghan civilians they had seen.

The Toronto Star also reports a Canadian soldier overheard an Afghan soldier abusing a young boy in late 2006 and later saw the victim with signs of rape trauma, specifically protrusions of his bowels and lower intestine.

There's not much doubt that while the Canadian military may jackboot the Taliban at will, soldiers have to tiptoe around Islamic justice that clashes with our version of the law and the consequences for breaking it.

If Canadian soldiers had intervened between Afghan police and boys clearly selling themselves for sex, for example, an important partnership would quickly sour. Now that several years'

worth of Taliban prisoners have been freed during the Kandahar prison breakout, we arguably need what passes for an Afghan police force more than ever.

Still, Defence Minister Peter MacKay told the Commons he'd met with military leaders yesterday and insisted soldiers "report any allegation of unlawful activity they see."

That's easy for him to say, as Canadian soldiers rumble LAVs through marijuana crops or swaths of opium-producing poppies so vast, a single field would net Canadian law enforcement its annual seizure.

There's not much even top military brass or diplomats can do to prevent marriages forced on pre-teen Afghan girls or women who have been raped from being charged with adultery for failing to convince male justice that the intercourse wasn't consensual. Global pressure barely prevented an Afghan student from being executed for downloading a report on women's rights from the Internet.

Yet Canadians have a right to question the sort of Afghan freedom our troops are being sacrificed to defend if police can molest young boys without fear of our intervention.

No wonder Canadian soldiers come home confiding that killing Taliban insurgents isn't as stressful as knowing an innocent kid might be regularly raped by an Afghan cop inside a Canadian military base.

Man-boy homosexuality has flourished anew in the aftermath of Taliban zero-tolerance laws, albeit a selectively punished offence in that era. Warlords again parade cities with teenage boys known as an "ashna" by their side.

The strict social separation and severe consequences for premarital sex with women have given rise to the cultural wrinkle of men used for sexual recreation and women reserved for reproduction.

But that hardly makes it right when Afghan boys are police rape victims.

And it's a wrong that Canadian soldiers should be encouraged to report so that Afghan officers being trained in law enforcement can be pressured to stop it themselves.


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## the 48th regulator (17 Jun 2008)

A little more about the Afghab Culture of Perderasts and Homosexuality;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Afghanistan

Article from 2002, 

Kandahar Men Return to Original Love: Teenage Boys
Sunday , January 27, 2002

By Tim Reid


ADVERTISEMENT
KANDAHAR, Afghanistan — 

Now that Taliban rule is over in Mullah Omar's former southern stronghold, it is not only televisions, kites and razors which have begun to emerge. 

Visible again, too, are men with their ashna, or beloveds: young boys they have groomed for sex. 

Kandahar's Pashtuns have been notorious for their homosexuality for centuries, particularly their fondness for naïve young boys. Before the Taliban arrived in 1994, the streets were filled with teenagers and their sugar daddies, flaunting their relationships. 

Kandahar is called the homosexual capital of south Asia. Such is the Pashtun obsession with sodomy — locals tell you that birds fly over the city using only one wing, the other covering their posterior — that the rape of young boys by warlords was one of the key factors in Mullah Omar mobilising the Taliban. 

In the summer of 1994, a few months before the Taliban took control of the city, two commanders confronted each other over a young boy whom they both wanted to sodomize. 

In the ensuing fight civilians were killed. Omar's group freed the boy and appeals began flooding in for Omar to help in other disputes. 

By November, Omar and his Taliban were Kandahar's new rulers. Despite the Taliban disdain for women, and the bizarre penchant of many for eyeliner, Omar immediately suppressed homosexuality. 

Men accused of sodomy faced the punishment of having a wall toppled on to them, usually resulting in death. In February 1998 three men sentenced to death for sodomy in Kandahar were taken to the base of a huge mud and brick wall, which was pushed over by tank. Two of them died, but one managed to survive. 

"In the days of the Mujahedeen [the pre-Taliban victors against the Communist government], there were men with their ashna everywhere, at every corner, in shops, on the streets, in hotels: it was completely open, a part of life," said Torjan, 38, one of the soldiers loyal to Kandahar's new governor, Gul Agha Sherzai. 

"But in the later Mujahedeen years, more and more soldiers would take boys by force, and keep them for as long as they wished," Torjan said. "But when the Taliban came, they were very strict about the ban. Of course, it still happened — the Taliban could not enter every house — but one could not see it." 

But for the first time since the Taliban fled, in the past few weeks, one can see the pairs returning: usually a heavily bearded man, seated next to, or walking with, a clean-shaven, fresh-faced youth. There appears to be no shame or furtiveness about them, although when approached, they refuse to talk to a Western journalist. 

"They are just emerging again," Torjan said. "The fighters too now have the boys in their barracks. This was brought to the attention of Gul Agha, who ordered the boys to be expelled, but it continues. The boys live with the fighters very openly. In a short time, and certainly within a year, it will be like pre-Taliban: they will be everywhere." 

This Pashtun tradition is even reflected in Pashtun poetry, odes written to the beauty and complexion of an ashna, but it is usually a terrible fate for the boys concerned. It is practiced at all levels of Pashtun society, but for the poorer men, having an ashna can raise his status. 

"When a man sees a boy he likes — the age they like is 15 or 16 — they will approach him in the street and start talking to him, offering him tea," said Muhammad Shah, a shop owner. "Sometimes they go looking in the football stadium, or in the cinema" (which has yet to reopen). 

"He then starts to give him presents, hashish, or a watch, a ring, or even a motorbike," Shah continued. "One of the most valued presents is a fighting pigeon, which can be worth up to $400. These boys are nearly always innocent, but such is the poverty here, they cannot refuse." 

Once the boy falls into the man's clutches — nearly always a man with a wife and family — he is marked for life, although the Kandaharis accept these relationships as part of their culture. 

When driven around, ashna sit in the front passenger seat. The back seat is simply for his friends. Even the parents of the boys know in their hearts the nature of the relationship, but will tell people that their son is working for the man. They, like everyone else, will know this is a lie. 

"They say birds flew with both wings with the Taliban," Muhammad said. "But not any more."

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We are in a country, that we have tried to stop the Drug Harvest, the ill treatment of women, and the unjusts of the Taliban.  This shoul also be at a forefront.  Just because it is a part of the culture, does not justify the allowing of it.

There, had to get that off of my chest.  Please note I am Not saying that anyone here is disagreeing with my view, just had to blow off some steam.

dileas

tess


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## GAP (17 Jun 2008)

I don't much give a damn what they practise, as long as it is not forced on the boys.....(although, personally I find the whole concept distasteful).....

That said, is the West going to bring some of the Victorian Era morals to the area? Hmmm.....I can just see it now........


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## X-mo-1979 (17 Jun 2008)

I could really care less.
This is something to sort out many years down the road with reforms.Along with the Opiate problem.

Vagina mutilation wasnt a issue in when we were in Somalia.


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## TrexLink (17 Jun 2008)

As regards a Canadian soldier being guilty of a crime if he does not report an act that would be a crime in Canada. Consider the following things that are illegal in Canada but accepted there:


polygamy (my, but that's been a hot-button issue around N America lately!)

cultivation of drugs such as opium and marijuana.Yep, it's technically illegal there, too, but half the country grows it.
'mild' spousal abuse.    Ick, but the reality is that a soldier stopping such is only going to cause her to get it three times worse once the maple leaf is gone.
child labour 
 driving without a licence.  _Without a what?_

The point is that it's a different world there.  We are guests, invitees.  Which is not to say that we should or should not ignore rape, but trying to apply Canadian laws to Afghans in Afghanistan is going to be... interesting.


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## the 48th regulator (17 Jun 2008)

Is this practice not considered a War crime or Crime against Humanity, specifically when forced?

War Crimes

Crimes against humanity

To turn a blind eye, becasue it is accepted, does not include the forcing of someone into the act.

dileas

tess


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## The Bread Guy (17 Jun 2008)

I'm not a lefty about a lot of things, but this one is tugging at the sandal-wearer in me.....  



			
				GAP said:
			
		

> I don't much give a damn what they practise, as long as it is not forced on the boys.....(although, personally I find the whole concept distasteful).....



It's distasteful to me, too - the main element of distaste comes from this coming from a situation where someone in authority (don't matter if it's a cop or a soldier) is taking advantage of their position of power over a vulnerable person (it's not forced if the kids have a reasonable chance to say, "No, thanks" - do they?).  Part of Canada's mission is, according to the latest list of priorities, to "maintain a more secure environment and establish law and order".  I think dealing with chickenhawking among the security services, even if it's gone on for a long time, would help make this happen.   If we're there to help build a police force or military the public can trust, I can't see too many Western cops or soldiers believing in their heart of hearts that this is OK. That said....



			
				X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> I could really care less.  This is something to sort out many years down the road with reforms.Along with the Opiate problem.





			
				TrexLink said:
			
		

> The point is that it's a different world there.  We are guests, invitees.  Which is not to say that we should or should not ignore rape, but trying to apply Canadian laws to Afghans in Afghanistan is going to be... interesting.



Agreed it won't be quick, it won't be easy, and there are political and cultural sensibilities to be considered.  But if we're trying to improve the lot of Afghans, I think working somehow on this abuse of power and position is something that needs to happen.

- edited to fix dopey editing mistake and add a detail -


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## the 48th regulator (17 Jun 2008)

Further information, from the Government of Canada;

http://www.international.gc.ca/foreign_policy/icc/warCrimes-en.asp#juris

Offences of Breach of Command/Superior Responsibility

Under the Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act, breach of command/superior responsibility is a criminal offence. This means that military commanders and superiors are obliged to take measures to prevent or repress genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes. In the event that such a crime is committed by one of their subordinates, military commanders and superiors are responsible for submitting the matter to the competent authorities for investigation.

We are not ther just to fight armed combatants, but to enforce dignity of humanity, and international law.

dileas

tess


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## X-mo-1979 (17 Jun 2008)

milnewstbay said:
			
		

> Agreed it won't be quick, it won't be easy, and there are political and cultural sensibilities to be considered.  But if we're trying to improve the lot of Afghans, I think working somehow on this abuse of power and position is something that needs to happen.


I agree 100%.This is something I have heard about the locals I.E "Man love Thursdays" however it never really did come up in any ROE briefs.

I am not a person who is against homosexuality when it comes to consenting people (I am hetero myself...just throwing that out there.)however the rape of children is wrong.Is it wrong enough to kill a Platoon of ANA/ANP?As they are involved in a hanus crime against humanity?

This is a really good topic for discussion.If the for or against homosexuality stays out of it,defiantly worth a discussion in regards to ROE however.


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## Jarnhamar (17 Jun 2008)

It's disgusting and it's wrong.

What happened to leading through example? In my opinion when we Canadians turn a blind eye to this shit inside our own FOBs we're giving them the signal that it's okay.
Silence is consent in this case.

We should put a stop to it even if it's only our little area of control. Don't let it go on in the FOBs for starters.  Just because we're "guests" in their country doesn't mean we should leave our morales and ethics at the door. It's the price of our help (and sacrifice) 
If they don't like it they can always complain to the Taliban.


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## X-mo-1979 (17 Jun 2008)

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> We should put a stop to it even if it's only our little area of control. Don't let it go on in the FOBs for starters.  Just because we're "guests" in their country doesn't mean we should leave our morales and ethics at the door. It's the price of our help (and sacrifice)
> If they don't like it they can always complain to the Taliban.



this is happening in the FOB's?

think you may have become part of the investigation!

I heard it was a civi problem...not in the fobs.


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## GAP (17 Jun 2008)

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> It's disgusting and it's wrong.
> 
> What happened to leading through example? In my opinion when we Canadians turn a blind eye to this shit inside our own FOBs we're giving them the signal that it's okay.
> Silence is consent in this case.
> ...



If it is consensual, what is the difference between that and the guys going on leave and picking up young bar girls, etc?

If it is forced rape, charge his ass!! But before we go off on a tangent about saving the young lads, we need a whole lot more information as to whether this actually rape or a chickenhawk searching out a sugar daddy.....


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## Jarnhamar (17 Jun 2008)

I have a feeling if I pick up a 10 or 13 year old girl on leave even if I charm her with my wad of cash and Han Solo roguish looks I'm spending some time in jail.

Let's say the kid doesn't mind the abuse in exchange for money or whatever, we shouldn't let it happen near us period.

Would we turn our back on a 35 year old Sgt in the CF having sex with a 16 year old recruit even if it was consensual? I think the answer would be no for a number of reasons.

The legality of the issue, cultural acceptance and cooperation between Canada and Afghanistan issues can be argued about  quite in depth. I still think saying "Hey not around us you don't" is a good start.


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## The Bread Guy (17 Jun 2008)

Here's where the Big Cod stands on this one - highlights mine, shared with the usual disclaimer....

*Soldiers ordered to report abuse: Hillier*
Janice Tibbetts ,  Canwest News Service, 17 Jun 08
Article link



> Gen. Rick Hillier said he reaffirmed orders Tuesday "through the entire chain of command" in Afghanistan that Canadian soldiers are not to permitted to turn a blind eye if they witness sexual abuse of Afghan civilians.
> 
> The top soldier was responding to news reports that Canadian troops have been ordered by commanding officers to ignore assaults against boys by Afghan soldiers.
> 
> ...


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## the 48th regulator (17 Jun 2008)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> this is happening in the FOB's?
> 
> think you may have become part of the investigation!
> 
> I heard it was a civi problem...not in the fobs.



Where did I hear that before.....













			
				GAP said:
			
		

> If it is consensual, what is the difference between that and the guys going on leave and picking up young bar girls, etc?



Hmmm,

Well lemme see what the Canadian Troop observed;



			
				milnewstbay said:
			
		

> Canadian soldiers in the main guard tower at forward operating base Wilson last summer winced when I asked about the sudden lineup of teenage boys along the mud walls of the neighbouring Afghan market.
> 
> "Wait a few minutes. You'll see," said one, his lip curling. "It's disgusting."
> 
> ...



Does not make it okay, legal, or culturally acceptable.




			
				GAP said:
			
		

> If it is forced rape, charge his ***!! But before we go off on a tangent about saving the young lads, we need a whole lot more information as to whether this actually rape or a chickenhawk searching out a sugar daddy.....








So can Christopher Neil use this argument to defend himself?

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080601/neil_thailand_080602/20080602?hub=CTVNewsAt11

Gents,

I saw the Jordanians holding hands when they went on patrol, I was told told that was culturally acceptable.  Let them fill their boots, or anything else they see appealing.

I even saw the rough treatment of the civvy population of Krajina, by their own defenders.  But had I seen them raping or molesting, they would have been lucky if a report to my commanders is all they got.

Bottom line, disgusting, and they should be stopped.  Pederasts are not a "cultural" acceptance.

dileas

tess


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## X-mo-1979 (17 Jun 2008)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Where did I hear that before.....



Sorry I'm not following 48th.
Think I may have been misunderstood.


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## the 48th regulator (17 Jun 2008)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Sorry I'm not following 48th.
> Think I may have been misunderstood.





			
				X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> I heard it was a civi problem...not in the fobs.



Maybe I don't follow, explain.

dileas

tess


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## GAP (17 Jun 2008)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Quote from: GAP on Today at 16:37:24
> If it is consensual, what is the difference between that and the guys going on leave and picking up young bar girls, etc?
> Hmmm,
> 
> ...



Nobody is questioning the need for a reaction to what the Canadian soldier witnessed, that is not what the comment was based on.


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## the 48th regulator (17 Jun 2008)

GAP said:
			
		

> Nobody is questioning the need for a reaction to what the Canadian soldier witnessed, that is not what the comment was based on.





			
				GAP said:
			
		

> If it is consensual, what is the difference between that and the guys going on leave and picking up young bar girls, etc?



Where has it been reported that it was consensual?

dileas

tess


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## GAP (17 Jun 2008)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Where has it been reported that it was consensual?
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess



Actually my comment was based on the New York Times article posted earlier


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## the 48th regulator (17 Jun 2008)

GAP said:
			
		

> Actually my comment was based on the New York Times article posted earlier



Which part?

dileas

tess


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## Fusaki (17 Jun 2008)

The way I see it, it's about priorities.

The Afghans do alot of things that are pretty fucked up by our standards, but we can't be picking fights with the ANA if we're going to work with them to defeat the Taliban. Somewhere down the road we'll encourage them to quit with the Man Love Thursdays, but in the short term we need to focus our efforts on killing the bad guys and establishing security.

It's not like you can just arrest an ANA guy like you would a Canadian soldier. If his buddies don't want him to be arrested, they WILL start a gunfight over it. Most of the time all you can do is shrug your shoulders and get back to dealing with the common enemy. Maybe once that country is stable they'll do things different. Untill then, I've got other things to worry about.


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## the 48th regulator (17 Jun 2008)

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> The way I see it, it's about priorities.
> 
> The Afghans do alot of things that are pretty ****ed up by our standards, but we can't be picking fights with the ANA if we're going to work with them to defeat the Taliban. Somewhere down the road we'll encourage them to quit with the Man Love Thursdays, but in the short term we need to focus our efforts on killing the bad guys and establishing security.
> 
> It's not like you can just arrest an ANA guy like you would a Canadian soldier. If his buddies don't want him to be arrested, they WILL start a gunfight over it. Most of the time all you can do is shrug your shoulders and get back to dealing with the common enemy. Maybe once that country is stable they'll do things different. Untill then, I've got other things to worry about.



What is your mission as a soldier then?

You would turn a blind eye to abuse, so that you can work with a few degenerates, that taint the whole ANA?

You would do nothing if you saw a rape, a murder, or some other form of indignity done by the "Allies"?

dileas

tess


----------



## X-mo-1979 (18 Jun 2008)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Maybe I don't follow, explain.
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess



What I was trying to say,I have heard of things like "man love thursdays" but always didnt understand that it was happening in our FOB's.Never heard that before,find it kind of disturbing if it's true.That's all I meant.


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## the 48th regulator (18 Jun 2008)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> What I was trying to say,I have heard of things like "man love thursdays" but always didnt understand that it was happening in our FOB's.Never heard that before,find it kind of disturbing if it's true.That's all I meant.



However,

Your post came across that you insinuated that it was a civvy problem, therefore we had no reason to intervene, am I correct?

Maybe I misinterpreted you post.

dileas

tess


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## Fusaki (18 Jun 2008)

> What is your mission as a soldier then?
> 
> You would turn a blind eye to abuse, so that you can work with a few degenerates, that taint the whole ANA?
> 
> You would do nothing if you saw a rape, a murder, or some other form of indignity done by the "Allies"?



My mission as a soldier is to help establish a secure environment so that the Government of Afghanistan can eventually stand on it's own so that terrorists can not use that country as a base of operations.

And we're not talking about a few degenerates here. We're talking about the whole culture. That sort of stuff doesn't change overnight, and we need to be ready to accept some things we don't like in favour of reaching long term goals.

The standard I apply to another Canadian soldier, an American soldier or Marine, or any other NATO troop doesn't have much to do with the standard I apply to the ANA. We belong to professional western militaries. The ANA are a 3rd world army with 3rd world ethics. We work with them for the same reason we work with guys like Dostum. It would be nice to have enough influential Afghans _who havn't been accused of war crimes_ to fill government positions, but we can't have everything we want all at once. We need to take whatever we can get now, and encourage the government of Afghanistan to sort the rest out on their terms over the long haul.


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## the 48th regulator (18 Jun 2008)

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> My mission as a soldier is to help establish a secure environment so that the Government of Afghanistan can eventually stand on it's own so that terrorists can not use that country as a base of operations.
> 
> And we're not talking about a few degenerates here. We're talking about the whole culture. That sort of stuff doesn't change overnight, and we need to be ready to accept some things we don't like in favour of reaching long term goals.
> 
> The standard I apply to another Canadian soldier, an American soldier or Marine, or any other NATO troop doesn't have much to do with the standard I apply to the ANA. We belong to professional western militaries. The ANA are a 3rd world army with 3rd world ethics. We work with them for the same reason we work with guys like Dostum. It would be nice to have enough influential Afghans _who havn't been accused of war crimes_ to fill government positions, but we can't have everything we want all at once. We need to take whatever we can get now, and encourage the government of Afghanistan to sort the rest out on their terms over the long haul.





			
				milnewstbay said:
			
		

> At around 10am on 31 January 2008 a vehicle with the markings and number plate of the Afghan National Army (ANA) stopped near a water-point where Sweeta was filling her buckets, according to the Afghanistan Human Right Organisation (AHRO).
> 
> “The three men in the car grabbed her and drove to an army barracks where the commander raped her in his office,” said Lal Gul Lal, chairman of AHRO, who has provided legal support to the victim’s family.
> 
> ...





			
				milnewstbay said:
			
		

> Article link
> 
> The Toronto Star also reports a Canadian soldier overheard an Afghan soldier abusing a young boy in late 2006 and later saw the victim with signs of rape trauma, specifically protrusions of his bowels and lower intestine.



Offences of Breach of Command/Superior Responsibility

Under the Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act, breach of command/superior responsibility is a criminal offence. This means that military commanders and superiors are obliged to take measures to prevent or repress genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes. In the event that such a crime is committed by one of their subordinates, military commanders and superiors are responsible for submitting the matter to the competent authorities for investigation



			
				Wonderbread said:
			
		

> My mission as a soldier is to help establish a secure environment so that the Government of Afghanistan can eventually stand on it's own so that terrorists can not use that country as a base of operations.
> 
> And we're not talking about a few degenerates here. We're talking about the whole culture. That sort of stuff doesn't change overnight, and we need to be ready to accept some things we don't like in favour of reaching long term goals.
> 
> The standard I apply to another Canadian soldier, an American soldier or Marine, or any other NATO troop doesn't have much to do with the standard I apply to the ANA.



Yes it does.

So what you are saying is you would turn a blind eye, because you perceive this is acceptable to their culture, and you are only there to fight the taliban.

Am I correct in this statement?

dileas

tess


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## X-mo-1979 (18 Jun 2008)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> However,
> 
> Your post came across that you insinuated that it was a civvy problem, therefore we had no reason to intervene, am I correct?
> 
> ...



Yeah big time misinterpretation.I don't agree with sodomy of children.

However as I said as with other war zone's such as female mutilation while we were in Somalia,it tends to get over looked I guess.
I have never been to that country yet.Leaving for there soon however.

Is there an army investigation happening reference this?

Glad I know nothing honestly,this could turn pretty messy for some leadership,_*IF*_the allogations are true and it has been reported.

If this was happening in FOB's I'm sure the media would have picked up on it by now.


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## Fusaki (18 Jun 2008)

> So what you are saying is you would turn a blind eye, because you perceive this is acceptable to their culture, and you are only there to fight the taliban.
> 
> Am I correct in this statement?



No.

If I had reason to suspect that the ANA were commiting acts such as this I would be legally bound to pass that information up my chain of command. I've only heard unsubstantiated rumors and read newspaper articles and have not witnessed anything personally.

My previous posts were a matter of opinion. However, as a member of the CF I am subject to and I abide by the QR&Os, international law, ect.


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## armyvern (18 Jun 2008)

Does this all sound quite disgusting? Yes. 100%. Absolutely.

Couple of comments on here have me curious though:



> Further information, from the Government of Canada;
> 
> Originally posted by Tess:
> 
> ...



I think the bold bit is quite important in all this. The ANA are not our subordinates, and neither are the populace. The above says "committed", not "observed". In respect to the above, I do not believe that there has been a bonified "Breach of Command/Superior Responsibility" ... until the CDS issued the directive that "observed" WOULD be reported. That being said, Crimes against humanity and War Crimes come in many a varied form and observations of such are reported.

This "Man Love Thursday" issue gets tricky in that Child Prostitution is condemned world-wide and is tracked by the UN. BUT -- you then get into the laws of the nation that you are in. I would argue that "rape" of young males in Afghanistan is not acceptable, is illegal in that country, and therefore ANY Canadian soldier witnessing such should be reporting it forthwith. Not only is it a crime here in Canada, but rape is also a crime in Afghanistan. In all the articles though -- I see only one story repeatedly which denotes or describes an incident as a "rape" and that would be the incident as reported by Cpl Schouten who now has PTSD after overhearing a child being raped, then was witness to the severe physical rape trauma caused to this child.

The other stories all talk about sugar-daddies ... and "boys" lining up to prostitute themselves. Is that disgusting too?? I certainly think so, but it makes me wonder "what is the age of consent in Afghanistan?" Is it 10? 12? Heck -- it was 14 right here in Canada (since 1892) and only raised up to age 16 on 01 May  of this year. Technically, it is not a crime here in Canada to have sex with a 16 year old - disgusting it may be, but not criminal. Prostitution IS a crime in Canada however, so technicaly we could report all Afghan incidents as "prostitution crime in progress" if the "boy" happens to be 16 or over (as per Canadian law for consent) or under age 16 (as too young to consent - a crime). But here's the kicker --- right here in Canada do you call the police or report to your chain of command every time you see a 30 year old prostitute soliciting a john on Yonge Street in Toronto?? That's a crime too. If we are obligated to report everything that would be a crime based on our Canadian Ethics and Morals in ANOTHER country with it's own laws -- should we not be obligated to do so within our own borders first??

We are now going to start imposing Canadian Laws and standards upon the population of Afghanistan? Aren't we there to help them build their own country back up ... not turn it into "Canada East"?? If we are "imposing" our western laws, standards and ideals -- then perhaps we really do then become an "occupier" vice an "assistant". It's a slippery slope. Yes, our mandate is also to respect dignity and enforce international law, but it's not to impose Canadian laws upon the Afghan populace.

So, is there an "age of consent" in Afghanistan? If so, what is that age? A "boy" over that age selling himself to an adult male may very well disgust us and not be typical of Canadian ethics and values but that doesn't necessarily deem that act to be contrary to "Humanitarian Law" or " International Law". I wandered through the United Nations' website but I couldn't find any recommendations they had for an acceptable age of consent other than "UN workers/forces will not engage in sexual relations with anyone under the age of 18, regardless of the age of consent in effect within that nation."

Do we therefore use age 18 as the UN standard within Afghanistan?? If so, should we be reporting 17 year olds here at home in Canada too? Even if they are consenting? Or is the answer to that "No, Canadian law says 16, so no - you don't report them?" What if Afghan Law says 12?? Is their law not just as valid as ours?

It certainly may not be as advanced as our laws here, but it's a beginning. But where to start? Do you start by reporting the 14 year old boy willfully selling himself ... or do you start by reporting the 14 year old female being forced to marry some man she's never met before first (and you do know that hubby dearest does want "baby-making" sex with her too.)?? After all, she's not given any choice in the matter and is being "forced" into her position. Isn't that, in effect, "rape unreported"?? I'd interpret the CDS' direction to include filing reports on all these "arranged marriages" as well.

Or is it simply more "acceptable" to our Canadian values than Man-love Thursdays is?

To re-itterate --- I think the practise is digusting and I would never sit back and watch a rape occur or any serious abuse without firstly attempting to do something to stop it immediately, and then to report it.

But something being disgusting to me ... isn't necessarily a crime (that's why that "age of consent" in Afghanistan is important - but I don't know what it is in Afghanistan ... anyone... Bueller???)

If the caveat is going to be "prostitution is illegal - therefore report it all" ... forced marriages are also illegal here, as is polygamy ... report it all. 

As for this occuring INSIDE the FOB ... 



> Canadian soldiers in the main guard tower at forward operating base Wilson last summer winced when I asked about the sudden lineup of teenage boys along the mud walls *of the neighbouring Afghan market*.
> 
> "Wait a few minutes. You'll see," said one, his lip curling. "It's disgusting."
> 
> ...



I'm unsure as to whether or not this article is indicating that this activity occured "IN" FOB Wilson. 

What I get is that boys lined up along the walls of an Afghan market, that the police then emerged through their station's barricades and collected some boys from the market, and then proceed back through their station gate/barricades into the Police Station. I gather that this was all observed by the reporter from the watch tower of FOB Wilson. I also interpret his comment "that the activity AT FOB Wilson" to be him referring to the general area, else he'd have said "IN" FOB Wilson.

I have very serious doubts that any Comd would have allowed this to happen "IN" a Canadian compound ... and move that NO reporter would have sat on the story for a year had that actually been the case. I think people are seeing "barricades" and "gates" and assuming that they are those of FOB Wilson ... vice those commonly found outside of police stations (and previously - prisons) in Afghanistan. But, I could be wrong - I've never been to FOB Wilson. It could very well be that the police station is inside the FOB and, if that's the case, this is just soooooooooo not on and wrong. I sincerely hope that that is not the case.


----------



## GAP (18 Jun 2008)

Excellent summation....


----------



## The Bread Guy (18 Jun 2008)

Lotsa good stuff there, AV...



			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> NO reporter would have sat on the story for a year had that actually been the case.



I hope so, too, but check out the lead paragraph of the National Post account....



> Canadian soldiers in the main guard tower at forward operating base Wilson *last summer* winced when I asked about the sudden lineup of teenage boys along the mud walls of the neighbouring Afghan market.



You're right about the description not being clear enough re:  was it inside or outside the FOB (makes a big difference re:  how direct a role the CF boss can play).  Isn't this something a reporter should be asking about?  A really quick archive search shows material he placelined from Afghanistan in the summer of 2007 - why didn't this reporter/columnist didn't write about this phenomenon until one of the competition piped up about something similar?

Based on my limited experiences, in some newsrooms, it's not "news" unless we discover it, our editor thinks it's worth running with, and we're the first to run it big.  Could this have been the case?



			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> right here in Canada do you call the police or report to your chain of command every time you see a 30 year old prostitute soliciting a john on Yonge Street in Toronto?? That's a crime too. If we are obligated to report everything that would be a crime based on our Canadian Ethics and Morals in ANOTHER country with it's own laws -- should we not be obligated to do so within our own borders first??



Anybody (in uniform or not) witnessing a crime in Canada should report it (yeah, I know, what are the odds of it being dealt with?) as part of trying to uphold law and order.  In AFG, though, our government is saying that our armed forces, our diplomats and our aid workers are there to help build security forces and government that the citizens can trust to look after their interests.  In light of that, do we NOT report instances where it looks like an adult authority figure is using his power unfairly over a minor?  The CF soldier in AFG is in a VERY different position than a taxpayer on Yonge.  In some ways, the soldier may have even MORE of an obligation to report, especially in light of the fact that here in the west, there are mechanisms in place if someone thinks a police officer is violating a trust of some sort.

- edited to fix grammar a bit -


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## the 48th regulator (18 Jun 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Does this all sound quite disgusting? Yes. 100%. Absolutely.
> 
> Couple of comments on here have me curious though:
> 
> ...



A fantastic post,

However I have a few challenges.  You keep refering to Canadian Laws, and Canadian Ethics.  And that Afghanistan may have different laws and ages of consent.

Unfortunately, there are international laws, and standards.  18 is the age agreed upon, that any one under that deserves the protection of the law.

http://www.unicef.org/crc/index_protocols.html

Rumours, innuendos, and such may seem like a waste of time.  However, if someone heard an ANA soldier claiming he knew were there was a weapons cache would one not at leaste pass this on to their chain of  command to investigate?  Simmilarrily, if you (this is for the general readership, not you Vern ) heard someone talking about raping children, you must do your due diligence and report it.

There are international laws that we must uphold and observe.  We may not know them from memory, however being Canadian, we have grown up with morals that these laws have been generally based on.  THerfore it is easier fro us to distinguish Culture and crime.

http://www.unicef.org/crc/index_30160.html

dileas

tess


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## TrexLink (18 Jun 2008)

I am not condoning the act of rape but, setting that aside, am curious about a couple of things I have seen here.

In particular, can somebody shed more light on rape being considered an crime against humanity?  I can see that in a Bosnia context, where mass rape was used as a terror tactic. I am not so sure about individual acts.  Would Paul Bernardo be eligible for trial in the Hague?  I rather doubt it.

I agree with ArmyVern - the offenses of breach of command regulation would seem to relate to one's own troops, not those of an ally.


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## armyvern (18 Jun 2008)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> A fantastic post,
> 
> However I have a few challenges.  You keep refering to Canadian Laws, and Canadian Ethics.  And that Afghanistan may have different laws and ages of consent.
> 
> ...



As stated, age 18 is the only age that I came up with on the United Nations website

But, by your own post here ...



> Unfortunately, there are international laws, and standards.  18 is the age agreed upon, that any one under that deserves the protection of the law.



We here in Canada are NOT upholding and observing those international laws right here in our very own country. Our age of consent is only 16. That means we are "not reporting" international crimes/assaults right here in our very own nation each and every day!!

We may be Canadian, and we may have what "we" believe to be better/higher ethical standards and morals --- but now you are asking soldiers to hold Afghans to a HIGHER standard (age 18) than we hold even our own citizens to.

Until the other day, I was led to believe that our mission in Afghanistan was to deafeat the Taliban, aid with rebuilding, build the ANA, the police etc ... and to ASSIST the Afghan government in enforcing *it's laws, it's constitution and to help them ensure their sovereignty*. Today, I'm not so sure of that. Today, it seems, that because we find something offensive (sex between a 16 year old/adult that is consensual) ... that we have deemed it "required" to report this as "a crime being committed" when that very thing is legal right here in this country.

Yes, we do have an onus on us to report war crimes, crimes against humanity, rape, abuse etc ... those are crimes. I have NO issues with any of that.

Consensual sex between 2 people is not a crime when they are over the age of consent. So who's age of consent do we apply? Afghanistan's (unknown age), Canada's (16), or the UNs (18)? And if you choose the UN's ... then are we not, as duty bound by QR&O, also obligated to report those SAME crimes happening in high school parking lots each and every day in this country occuring with 16 & 17 year olds? 

That's what I'm getting at. What gives us the RIGHT to tell another country what they should do with their laws? If we are going to enforce "western laws" ... then we in the west become very close to (if not actually) crossing that line of "Hi, we're from Canada and we're here to help" into a zone that I'm not sure I want to step into.


----------



## tomahawk6 (18 Jun 2008)

We need to be sensitive to Afghan culture. 

http://www.jrbooksonline.com/uk_marines_hassled_by_gays.htm


----------



## The Bread Guy (18 Jun 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> That's what I'm getting at. What gives us the RIGHT to tell another country what they should do with their laws? If we are going to enforce "western laws" ... then we in the west become very close to (if not actually) crossing that line of "Hi, we're from Canada and we're here to help" into a zone that I'm not sure I want to step into.



Agreed about forcing Western laws down people's throats....  However, is this a question of "telling a country to enforce Western laws" or is it "helping an ally find ways to increase public trust in their security forces"?  Paint me naive, but there has to be a way to get across the concept that cops or soldiers can't be abusing the trust of children without necessarily changing the consent and/or rape laws of Afghanistan.


----------



## the 48th regulator (18 Jun 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> As stated, age 18 is the only age that I came up with on the United Nations website
> 
> But, by your own post here ...
> 
> ...



Again Vern,

I am not advocating the eradication of Consensual sex. 

This thread is about people, specifically in Uniform, that force sexual attacks on the civillian population.  They are using their newly given authority to oppress the population, which in turn can hamper our mission.

Two ANA soldiers walking hand in hand, I could not care less.  Boys, coaxed into a police station for "Man-Boy-Love"  not on.  As I stated earlier, with the degenerate Christopher Paul Neil who loured boys to his apartment for sexual favours, he was tracked down by interpol and arrested.

The gist is, if someone of authority is forcing sexual attacks, it is our duty to have this stopped.  We are therre to help the people of Afghanistan.

milnewstbay , you nailed it



> Agreed about forcing Western laws down people's throats....  However, is this a question of "telling a country to enforce Western laws" or is it "helping an ally find ways to increase public trust in their security forces"?  Paint me naive, but there has to be a way to get across the concept that cops or soldiers can't be abusing the trust of children without necessarily changing the consent and/or rape laws of Afghanistan.



dileas

tess


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## MG34 (18 Jun 2008)

It isn't a case of abuse of authority, it is tradition and will continue despite what the do gooders and bleeding hearts think. The CF is under no obligation or order to interfere with the local customs and traditions, in fact we are ordered to respect them. Get off of your high horses folks there is nothing we can or should do about this it is there country and we are NOT there to impose our morals on them or we will risk losing more Afghan allies .


----------



## GAP (18 Jun 2008)

Hmmm....we may busy protecting our own......

Startled UK Marines Hassled By Gay Afghans  
By Chris Stephen In Bagram TheScotsman.net (5-24-02) 6-4-2
Article Link

British marines returning from an operation deep in the Afghan mountains spoke last night of an alarming new threat - being propositioned by swarms of gay local farmers.

An Arbroath marine, James Fletcher, said: "They were more terrifying than the al-Qaeda. One bloke who had painted toenails was offering to paint ours. They go about hand in hand, mincing around the village."

While the marines failed to find any al-Qaeda during the seven-day Operation Condor, they were propositioned by dozens of men in villages the troops were ordered to search.

"We were pretty shocked," Marine Fletcher said. "We discovered from the Afghan soldiers we had with us that a lot of men in this country have the same philosophy as ancient Greeks: a woman for babies, a man for pleasure,."

Originally, the marines had sent patrols into several villages in the mountains near the town of Khost, hoping to catch up with al-Qaeda suspects who last week fought a four-hour gun battle with soldiers of the Australian SAS. The hardened troops, their faces covered in camouflage cream and weight down with weapons, radios and ammunition, were confronted with Afghans wanting to stroke their hair.

"It was hell," said Corporal Paul Richard, 20. "Every village we went into we got a group of men wearing make-up coming up, stroking our hair and cheeks and making kissing noises."

At one stage, troops were invited into a house and asked to dance. Citing the need to keep momentum in their search and destroy mission, the marines made their excuses and left. "They put some music on and ask us to dance. I told them where to go," said Cpl Richard. "Some of the guys turned tail and fled. It was hideous."

The Afghan hill tribes live in some of the most isolated communities in the country. "I think a lot of the problem is that they don,t have the women around a lot," said another marine, Vaz Pickles. "We only saw about two women in the whole six days. It was all very disconcerting."

A second problem the British found came minutes after the first helicopter touched down at one of the hilltop firebases, when local farmers appeared demanding compensation for goats they claimed had been blown off the mountains by the rotor blades. "Every time we landed a Chinook near a village, we got some irate bloke running up to us saying his goat has just got blown off the mountain ridge by the helicopter - and then he demanded a hundred dollars compensation," said Major Phil Joyce, commander of Whisky Company, one of four companies deployed.

As patrols moved away from the landing zones, the locals began pestering Afghan troops attached to the marines with ever more outrageous compensation demands - topping off at a demand from one village elder for $500 (£300) for damage to a tree by the downdraft from helicopters.

But the marines were under orders to win the "hearts and minds" of local farmers in what is one of the few remaining Taleban bastions. "I managed to barter him down to two marine pens, a pencil and a rubber," Major Joyce said. "He went away quite happy ."
More on link

Come to think of it, maybe it was the Taliban fighters who were crossdressing......


----------



## the 48th regulator (18 Jun 2008)

MG34 said:
			
		

> It isn't a case of abuse of authority, it is tradition and will continue despite what the do gooders and bleeding hearts think. The CF is under no obligation or order to interfere with the local customs and traditions, in fact we are ordered to respect them. Get off of your high horses folks there is nothing we can or should do about this it is there country and we are NOT there to impose our morals on them or we will risk losing more Afghan allies .



What is the purpose of your post, and what does it have to do with the thread?

The thread was about Children being abused, where some articles alluded that Older men take on younger ones as their plaything. There is no high horse when it is our job to stop the rape of children, as it is internationally dictated.

Should we have walked away from the gates of the extermination camps, using the same argument you are talking about?

Get up on the horse, and be proactive in stopping degenerates, abusing their new given power on the weak.  Your ignorant statement, disregards international law, and your duty to help the people of Afghanistan, by confusing the two topics.

dileas

tess


----------



## The Bread Guy (18 Jun 2008)

MG34 said:
			
		

> It isn't a case of abuse of authority, it is tradition and will continue despite what the do gooders and bleeding hearts think. The CF is under no obligation or order to interfere with the local customs and traditions, in fact we are ordered to respect them. Get off of your high horses folks there is nothing we can or should do about this it is there country and we are NOT there to impose our morals on them or we will risk losing more Afghan allies .



Part of past and current "customs and traditions" in AFG include corruption in the government and justice sectors - should we overlook those too?  If the media quoted him properly, our Foreign Affairs Minister doesn't think so:  ""We made clear to the president that Canadians expect that if we're going to be in Afghanistan - Canadian lives are being lost here, there's a lot of money being spent - *there's got to be a sense of public confidence* that the money and the lives are in pursuit of something worthy ....  And *when there's a scent of corruption you get people turning off. And so, I explained to him the importance of dealing with that.*"

With the (generally) good back-and-forth here, I'm now able to zero in a bit more precisely:  I'm not talking about societal acceptance of pedophilia in AFG, I'm talking about specific behaviours by AFG security forces (cops or police).

Are Canadian efforts going to change *morals and attitudes* in AFG regarding pedophelia?  It would be nice, but it's NOT bloody likely, given the history.

Is it going to be easy to deal with pedophilic *behaviour BY SECURITY FORCES* in AFG?  No way.

Should we say/do nothing about this *behaviour by security forces* because it's hard?  No way.

Can we say, "hey, if the rest of AFG society can do it, why can't the security forces do it?"  I don't think so - as many on this board know, police and soldiers are held to a higher standard of expectation than the general public.  How can an AFG cop deal with, say, a complaint about such behaviour if he's doing it himself?  Can you say "conflict of interest" in a HUGE way?

_- edit to fix dopey omission - _


----------



## visitor (18 Jun 2008)

I  respect  you all immensely for dealing with these thorny problems. I wanted to throw in a new perspective for your opinion. Rather than  looking at  these incidents from   the point of view  of immediate  child-man consequences,   I wonder what the  longer term effect  of a no-tolerance policy for  child rape might be? Do you think that  preventing or  interrupting a rape (or any crime under the UN that may be a "tradition") or prosecuting a rapist would have a beneficial long term effect? Would the  victims  grow up trusting  Cnd soldiers and be more likely to be on "your side"  years from now when they  are adults?   Would their parents be more likely to be allies now?


----------



## armyvern (18 Jun 2008)

visitor said:
			
		

> I  respect  you all immensely for dealing with these thorny problems. I wanted to throw in a new perspective for your opinion. Rather than  looking at  these incidents from   the point of view  of immediate  child-man consequences,   I wonder what the  longer term effect  of a no-tolerance policy for  child rape might be? Do you think that  preventing or  interrupting a rape (or any crime under the UN that may be a "tradition") or prosecuting a rapist would have a beneficial long term effect? Would the  victims  grow up trusting  Cnd soldiers and be more likely to be on "your side"  years from now when they  are adults?   Would their parents be more likely to be allies now?



Visitor,

Please don't misinterpret anything anyone has said in this thread; you can be rest assured that I have zero doubt that any Canadian Soldier (male or female) would *immediately intervene* (enact zero tolerance) if ever stumbling accross/witnessing/hearing about child-rape. There's not a doubt in my mind. Rest assured as well, that Canadian soldiers have had occasion to do exactly this before, sadly.

I'm not sure that an individual crime of rape would qualify for prosecution under UN War Crimes. That is an individual act for which an individual would be charged with a crime. If this is a "group" action, such as was witnessed in the Balkans where women/girls were rounded up and routinely utilized by forces with the consent/oversight/and support of the CoC ... it now becomes a War Crime or "Crime against humantity".

In all the "data" put forth so far in this thread via linkages etc ... there is only mention of one case of "rape" (Cpl Schouten's account). All other media have referred to boys (perhaps some "underaged") prostituting themselves to both Afghan civilians and mebers of the ANA. This does not necessarily fall under the "crimes against humanity, nor war crimes". (That does NOT mean that it is pretty by any means). Boys are selling themselves, men are buying. It's a "normal" and "culturally accepted" thing to do over there. The ANA has certainly not organized this ... it existed and was accepted long before the ANA existed and has always been part of everyday life. Ergo, it would even be hard to argue that a member of the ANA is committing a war crime just because they wear a uniform.

I would love to live in a world where things like this did not occur, where this was not deemed acceptable.

Education certainly would go a long way towards prevention --- but nothing will change until the population of Afghanistan realizes that there is just so much wrong with this practise. It's been there for hundreds of years ... it'll NOT disappear overnight - no matter how much we in the west wish it to. They, quite simple, see no wrong in their actions. And given that they see no wrong in their actions -- it may even be possible that the local populace only sees "normal & acceptable" things occuring -- and with it being "normal" for there, they probably don't see any abuse of authority occuring either.


----------



## the 48th regulator (18 Jun 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> In all the "data" put forth so far in this thread via linkages etc ... there is only mention of one case of "rape" (Cpl Schouten's account). All other media have referred to boys (perhaps some "underaged") prostituting themselves to both Afghan civilians and mebers of the ANA. This does not necessarily fall under the "crimes against humanity, nor war crimes".  (That does NOT mean that it is pretty by any means). Boys are selling themselves, men are buying. It's a "normal" and "culturally accepted" thing to do over there. The ANA has certainly not organized this ... it existed and was accepted long before the ANA existed and has always been part of everyday life. Ergo, it would even be hard to argue that a member of the ANA is committing a war crime just because they wear a uniform.
> 
> I would love to live in a world where things like this did not occur, where this was not deemed acceptable.
> 
> Education certainly would go a long way towards prevention --- but nothing will change until the population of Afghanistan realizes that there is just so much wrong with this practise. It's been there for hundreds of years ... it'll NOT disappear overnight - no matter how much we in the west wish it to. They, quite simple, see no wrong in their actions. And given that they see no wrong in their actions -- it may even be possible that the local populace only sees "normal & acceptable" things occuring -- and with it being "normal" for there, they probably don't see any abuse of authority occuring either.



Sorry Vern,

You are wrong;

http://www.iccnow.org/documents/Canada.CrAgH.WcrEng.pdf

*Crimes against humanity*

1. For the purpose of this Statute, "crime against humanity" means any of the
following acts when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed
against any civilian population, with knowledge of the attack:
(a) murder;
(b) extermination;
(c) enslavement;
(d) deportation or forcible transfer of population;
(e) imprisonment or other severe deprivation of physical liberty in violation of
fundamental rules of international law;
(f) torture;
(g) rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution, forced pregnancy, enforced
sterilization, or any other form of sexual violence of comparable gravity;
(h) persecution against any identifiable group or collectivity on political, racial,
national, ethnic, cultural, religious, gender as defined in paragraph 3, or other
grounds that are universally recognized as impermissible under international law,
in connection with any act referred to in this paragraph or any crime within the
jurisdiction of the Court;
(i) enforced disappearance of persons;
(j) the crime of apartheid;
(k) other inhumane acts of a similar character intentionally causing great suffering,
or serious injury to body or to mental or physical health.

www.iccnow.org/


dileas

tess


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## Fusaki (18 Jun 2008)

> Education certainly would go a long way towards prevention --- but nothing will change until the population of Afghanistan realizes that there is just so much wrong with this practise. It's been there for hundreds of years ... it'll NOT disappear overnight - no matter how much we in the west wish it to. They, quite simple, see no wrong in their actions. And given that they see no wrong in their actions -- it may even be possible that the local populace only sees "normal & acceptable" things occuring -- and with it being "normal" for there, they probably don't see any abuse of authority occuring either.



Vern, I agree 100%

Under international law this weird part of Afghan culture may be illegal, but these practices will not change untill the Government of Afghanistan can provide a stable environment for the people to recieve a proper education.



> Is it going to be easy to deal with pedophilic behaviour BY SECURITY FORCES in AFG?  No way.
> 
> Should we say/do nothing about this behaviour by security forces because it's hard?  No way.



Meddling in the sexual habits of the ANA is counter-productive to the long term goal. We can stop them from raping each other in front of us and encourage them to give up the practice altogether, but it is just not practical to actively seek out and charge individual ANA guys with war crimes. It would be like banging our heads against a wall to accomplish nothing more than cause animosity between our soldiers and the ANA we are supposed to be working with. If we don't accept this basic fact of Afghan culture in the short term, it will never have the chance to change in the long term.


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## the 48th regulator (18 Jun 2008)

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> Vern, I agree 100%
> 
> Under international law this weird part of Afghan culture may be illegal, but these practices will not change untill the Government of Afghanistan can provide a stable environment for the people to recieve a proper education.
> 
> Meddling in the sexual habits of the ANA is counter-productive to the long term goal. We can stop them from raping each other in front of us and encourage them to give up the practice altogether, but it isjust not practical to actively seek out and charge individual ANA guys with war crimes. It would be like banging our heads against a wall to accomplish nothing more than cause animosity between our soldiers and the ANA we are supposed to be working with. If we don't accept this basic fact of Afghan culture in the short term, it will never have the chance to change in the long term.



You have now totally lost me,

Why are we there again?

dileas

tess


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## Fusaki (18 Jun 2008)

> You have now totally lost me,
> 
> Why are we there again?



I agree with The Ruxted Group:

Thursday, September 7. 2006- The Afghanistan Debate
http://ruxted.ca/index.php?/archives/24-The-Afghanistan-Debate.html


> Canada is in Afghanistan today to -
> 
> • help Afghanistan rebuild;
> • defend our national interests; and
> • ensure Canadian leadership in world affairs.


----------



## visitor (18 Jun 2008)

Vern,   I guess I was just wondering if rather than being "culturally accepted" by ALL  are there "pockets"  in the  Afghan population that would  decry the practice of the prostitution of young boys  if they had a voice.  Their parents? the boys themselves  (if they had other ways to make $$)?, their teachers, local doctors?  It is a  complicated problem that cannot  have a military solution just as our  similar home grown issues are not solely a problem for the police. Our worst  Canadian social problems require a multi-pronged approach: with force,  with law, with education, with social support, etc.  One alone will not be as effective as everyone working together toward the same goal, understanding what each can contribute.    Does anyone know of any local Afghans, organized or not, who could address these issues, and then enlist the soldiers  to assist in  whatever approach they  advise, when the situation arises?   Is there a formalized arm of the DND  that is a link to local (Afghan)  social advocates  that can address the issues that ultimately do come back  for the soldiers to deal with anyway?


----------



## the 48th regulator (18 Jun 2008)

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> I agree with The Ruxted Group:
> 
> Thursday, September 7. 2006- The Afghanistan Debate
> http://ruxted.ca/index.php?/archives/24-The-Afghanistan-Debate.html



But is that the current mandate of the Military Mission there?

http://www.dnd.ca/site/Newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=1703

* Wy are we there? /b]
Canada is in Afghanistan at the request of the democratically elected government, along with 36 other nations, and as part of a UN-sanctioned mission to help build a stable, democratic, and self-sufficient society. 

About 2500 members of the Canadian Forces (CF) are currently serving as part of Joint Task Force Afghanistan (JTF AFG). They play a key role in the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) mission whose goal is to improve the security situation in Afghanistan and assist in rebuilding the country.

Canada’s continued engagement in Afghanistan helps create the conditions for longer-term reconstruction. All CF operations in Afghanistan are conducted with the consent and at the request of the Afghan government to:

Provide the people of Afghanistan with the hope for a brighter future by establishing the security necessary to promote development and an environment that is conducive to the improvement of Afghan life; 
Conduct operations in support of Afghan National Security Forces; 
Help strengthen and enhance Afghan Governance capacity; 
Help extend the authority of the Government of Afghanistan in the South; 
Facilitate the delivery of programs and projects that support the economic recovery and rehabilitation of Afghanistan; and 
Assist in addressing humanitarian needs of Afghans by supporting Canadian governmental organizations and NGOs whose efforts meet Canada’s objectives. 
The Afghan people are relying on the international community to help them rebuild their lives and their country after having suffered through decades of instability, oppression and insurgency. **

But, you this right?

dileas

tess
*


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## The Bread Guy (18 Jun 2008)

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> I agree with The Ruxted Group ...



So do I, but we have to go by what the government says is the rationale....

I'm going to add to Tess' quote from the same ref as the last post - in fact the next paragraph on the same page....

"By supporting the *rebuilding of institutions such as independent courts, police and an army*, Canada is on the ground laying the foundation for Afghans to govern themselves and secure a better future." 

Do we help rebuild in the old mode, or in a "they'll trust you more" mode?


----------



## Fusaki (18 Jun 2008)

Sounds good to me, Tess.

I don't see the point you're trying to make, though.

I think we both agree that ANA guys keeping boy toys is wrong, but the only solution I see is a short term sacrifice for long term goals.



> Do we help rebuild in the old mode, or in a "they'll trust you more" mode?



What do you mean?


----------



## TrexLink (18 Jun 2008)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> *Crimes against humanity*
> 
> 1. For the purpose of this Statute, "crime against humanity" means any of the
> following acts when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed
> ...



Sorry, but I think I must agree with Vern.  As nasty as rape is, the way the above citation reads, individual acts of rape which are not as part of a widespread deliberate campaign of rape do not fall under the category of crimes against humanity.  Using rape as a means of mass intimidation, to encourage ethnic cleansing, etc would indeed be such, but that's not the case in question.


----------



## the 48th regulator (18 Jun 2008)

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> Sounds good to me, Tess.
> 
> I don't see the point you're trying to make, though.
> 
> ...



My point is we do not turn a blind eye. If we witness, or come by information that the abuse of the civillian population is happening whether by Police, ANA, Combatants or Beligerents it is our duty to act and report this through our chain of command.


This has nothing to do with imposing our views or laws, but uphold international law and mainting the mission handed to us by our government, detailed by the link I gave.

dileas

tess


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## the 48th regulator (18 Jun 2008)

TrexLink said:
			
		

> Sorry, but I think I must agree with Vern.  As nasty as rape is, the way the above citation reads, individual acts of rape which are not as part of a widespread deliberate campaign of rape do not fall under the category of crimes against humanity.  Using rape as a means of mass intimidation, to encourage ethnic cleansing, etc would indeed be such, but that's not the case in question.



Can you please quantify the amount of rapes it takes before we take action?

dileas

tess


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## Fusaki (18 Jun 2008)

> Can you please quantify the amount of rapes it takes before we take action?



What action would we take?


----------



## the 48th regulator (18 Jun 2008)

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> What action would we take?




Without knowing what your ROE are, How would you handle an attack on a civilian by an armed combatant?

Another step that comes to mind would be Report it through my chain of command.

dileas

tess


edit for grammar and spelling...


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## armyvern (18 Jun 2008)

visitor said:
			
		

> Vern,   I guess I was just wondering if rather than being "culturally accepted" by ALL  are there "pockets"  in the  Afghan population that would  decry the practice of the prostitution of young boys  if they had a voice.  Their parents? the boys themselves  (if they had other ways to make $$)?, their teachers, local doctors?  It is a  complicated problem that cannot  have a military solution just as our  similar home grown issues are not solely a problem for the police. Our worst  Canadian social problems require a multi-pronged approach: with force,  with law, with education, with social support, etc.  One alone will not be as effective as everyone working together toward the same goal, understanding what each can contribute.    Does anyone know of any local Afghans, organized or not, who could address these issues, and then enlist the soldiers  to assist in  whatever approach they  advise, when the situation arises?   Is there a formalized arm of the DND  that is a link to local (Afghan)  social advocates  that can address the issues that ultimately do come back  for the soldiers to deal with anyway?



I'm unsure of the answer.

They certainly feel it's acceptable to "systemiclly practise" or "force" 14 year old females into sexual relationships/marriages that they are not ready for and have not consented to. And there is zero "consent" on the part of the girls involved in that, while the boys are prostituting themselves willingly. The girls aren't even getting paid for crying out loud ... and this is happening to them _routinely_, systemicly, and is known world-wide.

It is also an "abhorable" practise by our western "standards and ideals" and is also looked down upon by the United Nations ...

Do we start charging the ANA with war crimes if they should happen to have a wife of 14 or 15 in an arranged marriage? The first night of that marriage guess what happens? Rape. And, there's no other word for it. The girls are NOT there consensually OR voluntarily like the boys prostituing themselves are. And, why just charge the ANA?

I just find it funny that our "western" ideals are now dictating that we take action in one case (where the boys are acting consensually) and not in the case where actual RAPE of these young arranged brides is occuring systemicly. If boys prostituting themselves on a voluntary basis constitutes a war crime ... then certainly 14 year old females being forced into marriages and raped must.

Why, all of a sudden, and now that it's "boys" and "men" involved vice "girls" and "men" have our sensibilities become so much more offended?

Both things disgust me, but where's the orders to report the raping of these girls which is widespread (reporting the marriage will suffice - everyone is aware the "rape" occurs that first night as a result of that marriage), widely known, and sanctioned? Those girls are not volunteers ... unlike the boys. That just seems so wrong to me.


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## the 48th regulator (18 Jun 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I'm unsure of the answer.
> 
> They certainly feel it's acceptable to "systemiclly practise" or "force" 14 year old females into sexual relationships/marriages that they are not ready for and have not consented to. And there is zero "consent" on the part of the girls involved in that, while the boys are prostituting themselves willingly. The girls aren't even getting paid for crying out loud ... and this is happening to them _routinely_, systemicly, and is known world-wide.
> 
> ...



Oh great Vern,

Please do not try to turn this now from the "enforcing western culture" agrument to the Male and female debate.

Your point is valid, and if there are complaints of this happening, then we continue enforcing international law.  We have allowed Females from the region to return to school, a huge cultural no no.  Maybe we can show them too that the rights of children must be upheld.

dileas

tess


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## visitor (18 Jun 2008)

If  girls/ young  women are raped and bear children, they can develop fistulas,  which, if untreated,  contribute to  continually leaking urine and feces, making  them  undesirable  sexual partners ( even if they were consenting), sending their husbands to the boys... Fistulas are treatable but millions of women in undeveloped countries are silently affected.


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## johnnycanuck (18 Jun 2008)

ashley mc assiac...pashton or acadian  and what about the U of T prof.'s gov't funded paper (I believe circa early 90's )Men Loving Boys  or the BC author's or artist's man/boy love stories /drawings that made supreme court headlines ... easier to finger- point outward than inward
and what about the roman catholic sex abuse scandal and our own native school saga(newly apologized for) we haven't dragged ourselves so far out of the cess pool that we can proclaim the dry moral high-ground ... hell we're barely out of the weeds ourselves
personally i find this as repugnent as teen-age girls /boys working our own streets


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## TrexLink (18 Jun 2008)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Can you please quantify the amount of rapes it takes before we take action?



Ma'am,

I am not minimizing the seriousness or nastiness of rape nor suggesting in any way that even one offense is acceptable. My point is merely that rape,_ per se_, is not a crime against humanity. To qualify it as a crime against humanity, it must take place in a context of mass rape or organized rape, as occurred in FRY.  If all rapes were considered by law to be crimes against humanity, we would be sending Paul Bernardo and Clifford Olsen to The Hague. The reality is, while they are without question detestable scum, that they are not war criminals any more than a street goblin in Winnipeg is when he kills a rival dope dealer.

Given that, the entire question of the chain of command being criminally charged is moot.

As to our troops' reaction to individual cases, that as always depends entirely on ROEs, which are drafted by lawyers for approval by politicians on the advice of civil servants and implementation by soldiers.  Not trying to be funny, but that is the reality.  ROEs are classified, but would spell out what our troops may or must do in cases of serious criminal acts by one Afghan against another.


----------



## armyvern (18 Jun 2008)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Oh great Vern,
> 
> Please do not try to turn this now from the "enforcing western culture" agrument to the Male and female debate.
> 
> ...



I'm not trying to make this a girl vs boy thing Tess.

I flat out stated that both practises are deplorable (in line with my own personal value system). 

I agree with you ... but who gets to decide what is the "right" standard? The west? Isn't that then "imposition?" Isn't that the exact opposite of what we keep telling the lefties we're doing over there? That we are NOT there to impose western standards -- that we are there to assist the Afghan nation rebuild etc?? I can find quite a few links on this site where we've stated that it was not our intent, nor our mandate to impose our standards/laws/rules and turn them into a mini-USA or Canada.

With arranged marriages now on the table, and with their cultural value of Man-Love Thursdays ... we may as well lock up the vast majority of the Afghan population. This IS their cultural norm. It's certainly not ours - but it is theirs.

Let's go back to your link from earlier ... right underneath the para G that you turned yellow ... read para H.



> *Crimes against humanity*
> 
> 1. *For the purpose of this Statute, "crime against humanity" means any of the
> following acts when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed
> ...



By enforcing our western values onto them because we don't agree with their cultural values ... aren't we now treading a pretty fine line of "Crimes against Humanity" ourselves?

We can not define someone's values for them, nor can we enforce our culture as "the correct one" upon them. Who made us God?


----------



## the 48th regulator (18 Jun 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I'm not trying to make this a girl vs boy thing Tess.
> 
> I flat out stated that both practises are deplorable (in line with my own personal value system).
> 
> ...



Then we might as well pull out, as by your point, we are enforcing our views their with all of our actions.

The Taliban, was their legal Government, yet we are fighting them to keep out.  Why?

dileas

tess


----------



## Fusaki (18 Jun 2008)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Without knowing what your ROE are, How would you handle an attack on a civilian by an armed combatant?
> 
> Another step that comes to mind would be Report it through my chain of command.



Sure, I could report it through my chain of command - it covers my ass and it makes it someone else's problem. And I'm sure that the CoC would do everything it could to punish those responsible and ensure that it doesn't happen again. I don't think it would amount to much though. The Canadian Forces is there to assist the ANA, not administer it. We can advise them, but when you're dealing with an issue so deeply rooted in their culture I don't see them taking the whole thing very seriously.

To try and deal with the problem on the spot is asking to get into a TIC with the ANA. I've seen less serious situations turn into mexican standoffs. Again, it's a cultural thing. The ANA are willing to die for alot less.


----------



## TrexLink (18 Jun 2008)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Then we might as well pull out, as by your point, we are enforcing our views their with all of our actions.
> 
> The Taliban, was their legal Government, yet we are fighting them to keep out.  Why?


First of all, the Taliban were never the legal government of Afghanistan, any more than a street gang in Harlem is the legal government there, howver much influence they may have.  The Taliban held power, true, but in general, the legality of those running a country is determined by recognition by other established governments - rather like private club members agreeing that a new person is fit to join their club. This is seen in cartoons, movies and books, where a new junta is thrilled at having been 'recognized' by other nations. Naturally, the more important the nations who are doing the recognizing, the stronger the authority of that recognition (France counts for more than, say, Somalia).  Of the close to 200 nations on this planet, only three - three - recognized the Taliban as the legitimate government of Afghanistan - Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and the UAE.  Given that lack of international recognition, Afghanistan was technically a failed state or in a state of anarchy. Bottom line is that the fact that the Taliban held the reins did not make them the legal government. Odd system, with much silliness, but there it is.

Our actions are directed to allowing the Afghan population to make their own choice. The odds of Afghanistan ever becoming a secular democracy such as you or I would feel comfortable in are infinitely small, but we can still make things better for them. To do that, we have to compromise. As just one example, do we accept polygamy, even though it is illegal here? It's a purely pragmatic issue - we cannot remake everything in our own image; it will not work. That does not mean that we approve of, for instance, prostitution, but we may need to accept it as a cultural thing to allow us to achieve success in more important areas, such as a pluralist democratic government, the independence of the courts, sexual equality and the rule of law.  Rape is another issue entirely, and it is easy to get sidetracked.

Forgive me if this seems like a lecture; it is not intended as such. Afghanistan is in such a catastrophic state that virtually _everything_ is a problem. We cannot achieve everything at once and thus need to focus on the really important issues before we can influence the less important ones.


----------



## the 48th regulator (18 Jun 2008)

TrexLink said:
			
		

> First of all, the Taliban were never the legal government of Afghanistan, any more than a street gang in Harlem is the legal government there, howver much influence they may have.  The Taliban held power, true, but in general, the legality of those running a country is determined by recognition by other established governments - rather like private club members agreeing that a new person is fit to join their club. This is seen in cartoons, movies and books, where a new junta is thrilled at having been 'recognized' by other nations. Naturally, the more important the nations who are doing the recognizing, the stronger the authority of that recognition (France counts for more than, say, Somalia).  Of the close to 200 nations on this planet, only three - three - recognized the Taliban as the legitimate government of Afghanistan - Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and the UAE.  Given that lack of international recognition, Afghanistan was technically a failed state or in a state of anarchy. Bottom line is that the fact that the Taliban held the reins did not make them the legal government. Odd system, with much silliness, but there it is.
> 
> Our actions are directed to allowing the Afghan population to make their own choice. The odds of Afghanistan ever becoming a secular democracy such as you or I would feel comfortable in are infinitely small, but we can still make things better for them. To do that, we have to compromise. As just one example, do we accept polygamy, even though it is illegal here? It's a purely pragmatic issue - we cannot remake everything in our own image; it will not work. That does not mean that we approve of, for instance, prostitution, but we may need to accept it as a cultural thing to allow us to achieve success in more important areas, such as a pluralist democratic government, the independence of the courts, sexual equality and the rule of law.  Rape is another issue entirely, and it is easy to get sidetracked.
> 
> Forgive me if this seems like a lecture; it is not intended as such. Afghanistan is in such a catastrophic state that virtually _everything_ is a problem. We cannot achieve everything at once and thus need to focus on the really important issues before we can influence the less important ones.



I can not believe I have had to read a long winded jusification of a Holocaust that is happening in Afghanistan.

Children and women are being oppressed, however, you are advocating the ignoance of this to justify a militaristic mission.

We are not there to Vicingr our way to win a war, we are there to liberate these people.  Yet, you say turn a blind eye until we finish the "war" and walk away so they can solve their own problems.

For the third time, why were we sent there.  Can someone elaborate?

dileas

tess


----------



## TrexLink (18 Jun 2008)

I appreciate your concerns and the last thing I would want to do is minimize your – very legitimate – points.  There is however an old story about two clergymen meeting at a conference. Over lunch, Father O’Malley asks his tablemate and friend, “Rabbi Feldstein, when are you going to drop this ridiculous superstition and have some of this wonderful ham?”  The rabbi smiles and replies, “At your wedding reception, Father.”

Leaving aside such clearly violent and aggressive acts as murder or rape, my point is that we cannot agree even here in Canada what is ‘sinful’ or ‘wrong’.  We here would condemn the arranged marriage of a 14-year-old girl and hold up those involved as monsters.  A good, respectable Afghan might easily accept that, but would be aghast at our sitting down to a meal which included wine and baked ham – utterly Godless! The mental maps are different – and who’s to say who is right and who is wrong?

Moreover, at the risk of coining a phrase, it’s not a perfect world and we cannot expect perfection.  In a perfect world, perhaps, the Afghans would be thrilled to adopt our values and our way of thinking. In reality, we are facing a nation so far down the flusher that any improvement is grounds for enthusiasm. Had we marched in and demanded that the Afghans immediately adopt all of our attitudes, we would have gained nothing but universal resistance. There would have been no progress for the nation as a whole.

Look at what has been achieved to date – women have the vote and sit in Parliament. (OK, they are to some extent marginalized, but it is still a great leap forward and hopefully a precursor to even more.)  80 percent of the population now has access to some basic health services, including for the first time in many of their lifetimes, women.  Over 2,000,000 girls are now legally attending school for the first time. Unemployment (75% under the Taliban) is dropping and there are a quarter of a million microloans out there, allowing families and individuals to support themselves.  These are significant advances, advances for the entire country that would have been impossible if we had attempted to impose our own values across the board.

There is, of course, the very real philosophical question of whether an advance for the many justifies toleration of the mistreatment of the few.  Arguably not, I will admit, but I also know that millions of people are better off now than they were, and that’s significant.


----------



## armyvern (18 Jun 2008)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> *For the third time, why were we sent there.  Can someone elaborate?*
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess



To deal with the terrorist organization (Al-Qaida) who attacked the WTC on 9/11. These terrorists were harboured within the borders of Afghanistan by the Taliban Regime. 

Further to routing Afghanistan of terrorists and extremists, we are mandated to train and assist ANA, Police and to provide security and security that enable reconstruction efforts that are occuring. In doing so, we are expected to abide by and respect the laws, tradition and culture of our host nation and to also ensure that we conduct "ourselves" IAW Canadian law and CF regulations concurrently.

No where ... are we expected to have those citizens of that sovereign nation conduct "themselves" IAW Canadian Law and CF Regulations. 

We are obligated to report crimes such as rape etc.

We are not obligated to report a cutural tradition that accepts and allows boys to prostitute themselves to men (this does NOT constitute rape)because that is not a War Crime or a Crime against Humanity unless that prostitution is "ENFORCED" prostitution which was indeed the case in the FRY, but is not the case in Afghanistan. If the boys prostituting themselves are under age "X" we may have a valid arguement for interfering in that cultural occurance as the child may not be old enough to "provide consent" -- but again -- What is that age?? You have yet to answer that? You said 18 originally -- so what about those Crimes Against Humanity occuring in your local high school parking lots - have you reported them yet (because, again, Canadian Law says 16 in this country)? What standard do you want? 

I don't like it Tess either, but it is not a war Crime, nor is it a Crime against Humanity ... no matter how much our western ideals see us wishing that it was.


----------



## the 48th regulator (18 Jun 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> To deal with the terrorist organization (Al-Qaida) who attacked the WTC on 9/11. These terrorists were harboured within the borders of Afghanistan by the Taliban Regime.
> 
> Further to routing Afghanistan of terrorists and extremists, we are mandated to train and assist ANA, Police and to provide security and security that enable reconstruction efforts that are occuring. In doing so, we are expected to abide by and respect the laws, tradition and culture of our host nation and to also ensure that we conduct "ourselves" IAW Canadian law and CF regulations concurrently.
> 
> ...



Again Vern,

Who Justified our forces to be there and why?

And if they did, what laws are we upholding?  Are we now a mercenry force, brought in to eradicate the Taliban to install the curent regime?

Further to that, why is the exploitation of children not a "NOT a war Crime, nor is it a Crime against Humanity"?

I have presented international laws stating it is, but why does Vern's opinion supercede those?

I guess I am missing a point here.

dileas

tess


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## johnnycanuck (18 Jun 2008)

read my first post  its like stepping into a time machine 1000 year old customs will not be changed instantly...like just add water and stir..voila
as repugnant as it seems to  most decent folk ...see my last post ...and "remember 'the guy with all the answers' couldn't be here today he was busy with other things"


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## armyvern (18 Jun 2008)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Again Vern,
> 
> Who Justified our forces to be there and why?
> 
> ...



What!!??

Why don't YOU answer some of the questions posed to you?

What age Tess? Are Canadians committing crimes against humanity each and every day here at home?

Afghanistan now has a democraticly elected government. They are a sovereign nation ... and the United Nations will tell you the same thing. Their laws are valid. 

The UNs own site qualifies the "age of consent" statement that it gives: it says "*UN Forces" can't * have sexual relations with anyone under 18 in the host nation regardless of the age of consent in that nation, but it sure doesn't say that the citizens of that country can't have sex with a 16 year old in that nation if that should be the age of consent there.

You want to enforce and change their culture as being "wrong" and not IAW Canadian ideals or western values ... then I move that it is actually YOU who is becomming the "occupier" of Afghanistan, not me (I'm a mercenary now?? Please. ) :.


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## the 48th regulator (19 Jun 2008)

Then why are we still there?

While we are there we see the local constibulary, and military commiting international crime, and you say turn a blind eye as it is okay in their culture?

Should we have done that in Yugo?  Ethnic Cleansing was an acceptible way of the Slavic culture for hundres of years.

Should our troops have walked away from the Death camps, because it was culturally accepted by the Germanic populace?  

Give me a break, the moment we have entered their land, fighting and dieing, yet ignoring the basic fundemenals of human rights, is hypocritical.

We are not there to get notches on our belts, and train our troops in combat.

I can not believe I am having this conversation with people who serve/seved in the Canadian Military!

dileas

tess


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## armyvern (19 Jun 2008)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Then why are we still there?
> 
> While we are there we see the local constibulary, and military commiting international crime, and you say turn a blind eye as it is okay in their culture?
> 
> ...



You're STILL not answering. 

As for the bit below about "Vern's opinion" when you've posted international laws ...

Did you miss the bit where I told you to read the very next para H in that international law you were citing that states it is a crime against humanity to punish people etc due to their cultural beliefs?

You are trying to paint a picture that you are somehow holier than me. That you are righteous and that I am a mercenary. That I condone this happening. I do not, did not, will not condone it as I have REPEATEDLY stated in this thread. That STILL does not make this a crime against humanity. 

How dare you insult my service. Or my ethics, or my morals. How dare you. I guess some one did come along and appoint you God. Simply because we both dislike what is occuring, but one believes it's a war crime and one doesn't. 

Have a great night.


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## Babbling Brooks (20 Jun 2008)

I've followed this thread with great interest, and must compliment many of those who have posted excellent arguments here.  Like all of you, I read of the rape of a young boy, and was deeply affected by it.  I have a young son myself, and cannot help empathizing -  for more than a day, I literally couldn't keep my mind away from the horror I felt at this heinous abuse.  One of my greatest motivations to join the CF nearly 20yrs ago was the desire to protect others, and I can clearly see how not being able to do that in every situation could be psychologically debilitating for soldiers so strongly motivated and conditioned to protect the weak.  It's important - not only for the Afghans, but for the Canadians as well - that our assistance be conditional upon certain standards of behaviour; our blood and treasure is being spent to make improvements to that country, not to uphold the status quo.

Having said that, I think a couple of points need to be made about where this thread has gone.

First, it's easy to point to one extreme - say, the witness of a rape - and say "that's wrong, you should stop it."  Absolutely.  And it's easy to point to another - say, sending girls to school - and say "that's good, we need to keep doing that."  Absolutely, as well.

But the grey area in between is where we all live, and none more so than those actually walking the dusty tracks of Kandahar.  I hesitate to speak for Vern, but it seems to me that that's what she was trying to point out: the extremes are easy to deal with, but the closer we get to the middle ground, looking for where to draw the line, the more difficult the task becomes.

Hence the discussion about how old a boy can be before his participation can truly be judged consensual.  We can all agree that 8 or 10 would be too young, and we can probably all agree that 25 would be old enough.  But if we're to enforce a standard, we need to decide which we're going to use, and that involves picking a line somewhere in the middle - a line that not all will agree upon.  And if we're going to enforce it for boys, should we not also logically enforce it for girls as well?

When Amir Attaran was suggesting Canada operate a jail in conjunction with the Afghan gov't, I wrote the following:



> It's a fantastic idea.
> 
> But here's the kicker: *there are a million fantastic ideas to move Afghan society forward, and we simply can't do all of them.*
> 
> ...



Obviously, the rape of young boys isn't the same as having a Taliban thug sleep in a drafty prison cell, as far as priorities are concerned.  But the conflict of principles holds true in both cases: "Never pass a fault" versus "Don't let the 'perfect' be the enemy of the 'good.'"

The idea of sacrificing one small boy in order to save a relationship with an ANP unit is personally abhorrent to me.  But our soldiers "pass a fault" every single day - in the way women are treated, in the way corruption is a daily fact of life, in the way drugs are a staple of the economy, and on and on.  They do it because they can't fix _everything_ at once.

With all due respect to Tess, whose feelings on the matter are obviously noble and heartfelt, the argument here isn't whether raping a child is wrong - nobody's arguing it's right.  The argument is about how best to make lasting changes to the social landscape in Afghanistan, to bring it into the world community so that both we and Afghans are safer and more prosperous.  Because the whole western intervention is a collection of compromises, of priorities, of not letting the 'perfect' be the enemy of the 'good.'

None of us could stand by and listen or watch while a child was abused.  But it's much easier for each of us to decide what we would do individually if the situation were right in front of us than it is to decide how, as a nation, we're to deal with such a problem systemically, as but one facet of an already overcomplicated mission.

No easy answers...


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## X-mo-1979 (20 Jun 2008)

If were going to start acting as social workers we need more numbers. (refering to the outside of camp raping)
Just remember how many troop's are actually outside that wire,and the number back in KAF.

Wouldnt it fall on the POMLT and OMLT to ensure this sort of thing didnt happen in reference to the ANA/ANP?


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## MG34 (21 Jun 2008)

The bottom line is we are NOT there to change any of the locals customs be they horrific or not, if in their culture "boys are for fun..." it is not up to us as guests to do anything about it.

ETA: I would not trust anything that comes from the mouth of oa certain Pte who has seemed to make the news alot lately...he seems to forget that there were many other soldiers present at the time of his alleged observations...there is no report nor any other witnesses to this specific event I would strongly suggest it is a fabrication. AS for "man love Thursday" on the other hand yes that is a fact.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (21 Jun 2008)

We have enough abuses here in our own country that we can't seem to get a lid on and some think that we can stop it from happening in a place a lot more "untame" than here?


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## The Bread Guy (21 Jun 2008)

I agree with all the sentiments re:  "where the hell do you start?" when it comes to sorting out failed states like AFG.

However, to play the devil's advocate, some are saying, "hey, don't mess with their culture".  Since there is a cultural history of not educating women in rural areas of AFG, I presume the projects CAN is undertaking as described highlighted here are meant for boys only, then?

We're also working to deal with "a number of challenges—including illiteracy, corruption and drug abuse among the ANP and weaknesses in the judicial and correctional systems" - all of the three issues mentioned here are part of a long-standing ANP culture - do we let these slide, too?

My feeling is that since we won't realistically be able to change the _*ATTITUDES AND BEHAVIOURS of SOCIETY AS A WHOLE*_ when it comes to pedophilia, it's gotta be possible, as part of the POMLT or OMLT process, to change _*THE BEHAVIOURS OF THE SECURITY FORCES*_.  This must be possible in light of the fact that, as someone wiser than me once said, "you can train people to run into burning buildings or towards bullets aimed at them."

Yeah, it's hard, and could ruffle feathers if handled badly, but I think we need to start.


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## TrexLink (21 Jun 2008)

milnewstbay - I understand your concern, as well as that of other previous posters, but there are a number of things worth reiterating.

(As an aside, the problem with this whole discussion is that it has grown to encompass two issues. The first is a relatively small number of allegations of rape by Afghan troops. The second is consensual adolescent homosexual prostitution. (And please let's not get into an arbitrary 'age of consent' definition passed in an air conditioned building in New York. The reality is that Afghanistan is a primitive society and in any such, boys and girls assume adult roles much sooner. The Jewish Bar Mitzvah is a good example, a holdover from the ancient Hebrew ceremony acknowledging that the 13-year-old male in question is now a man and about to enter society as a working and soon-to-be-married individual.)  It is very easy to fuzzify these two issues into one.  Rape is never acceptable, but our ability to react to an incident in progress is strictly limited and depends heavily on what powers our troops are given by ROEs. The other issue is one of a host of things Canadians find disturbing, even distasteful, about Afghan ways, but which we may on a strictly pragmatic basis have to ignore.)

First and foremost, we have no mandate to do any form of social reworking. The UNSC's charge to ISAF is (Cole's Notes version) to stabilize and to train security forces.  OK, an argument can be made that those might include lectures on 'playing nice' (western-style) but the focus must remain on turning a bunch of tough, intelligent, but semi-literate peasants into effective soldiers and cops. Guess where the priority is going to lie? 

Moreover, going back to our mandate, the Afghans would be within their rights to tell us to get stuffed. Most of them are quite comfortable with arranged child marriages, polygamy or adolescent homosexual prostitution, but would be scandalized, horrified by the thought of sitting down to dine on baked ham and a glass of wine. To them, for a bunch of heathenistic foreign pork-loving sinners to show up and demand that they change_ their_ ways to conform to that of _our_ JudeoChristian ideals would be a total affront. Each time we try to bring about a societal change, even if small and even if successful, it causes friction and reduces to some extent our influence and ability to bring about other changes. We need to pick our fights.

Those areas of social change we are involved with are generally those already blessed by the govt of Afghanistan. For instance, President Karzai's administration agrees with female suffrage and universal education and has made them a priority, so the way is clear for us to provide support in those areas.

Third, every conference, every study, every panel, every PhD dissertation on poverty has concluded that the best way out is universal education. If we are looking for a long-term solution, get the boys and girls capable of reading and writing, capable of thinking outside of their historic box, capable of assessing facts from outside of their own reality. From that will follow far bigger changes than 35,000 ISAF troops in the midst of 35,000,000 Afghans can ever achieve.

Fourth, while the ethical _'Walking Away from Omelas'_ question about tolerating limited evils to permit greater good elsewhere is unanswerable, we cannot do everything, be everywhere, see all.  At some point, pragmatism has to kick in.


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## the 48th regulator (21 Jun 2008)

Hey all,

Sorry fro pruning the thread, I was participating in it, and should not have used my MOD powers to do that.

However, I agian was not contributing to the discussion any further, just rehashing what I said.

Sorry George for cleaning out our exchange.

dileas

tess


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## HItorMiss (21 Jun 2008)

As for the abuse of children does it happen, I suppose so but I am not an expert in the law that goeverns the populace of Afghanistan. I have not read the charter that says age of consent nor the laws that goveren who what and where they can partake in there personal pleasure. What I can say is that do ANA soldiers like to bugger eachother or should I say be much more affectionate with another man? yes they do repeatedly but thats what they do who am I to force my personal view on them just like I cannot for this country do that to those that partake in homosexual relations.


Edit: My personal feelings have been removed as they have no bearing on the discussion at large....and I got the rank wrong LMAO


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## McG (21 Jun 2008)

While we cannot adopt a philosophy of ethical relativism (all moral principles derive validity from cultural acceptance & there are no universally valid moral principles that apply to all people at all times) we must also accept that we (the west) do not own a monopoly on proper moral principles.  With that in mind, it is most certainly not the job of the military to socially re-engineer Afghan culture with respect to things that may fall within gray areas or which may be questioned.  

We will follow the law of armed conflict and we can demand that of those who fight along side us (such as the ANA).  We can demand our soldiers follow the laws & expectations of Canadian society ... and this would include the expectation that our soldiers not turn a blind eye to crimes of violence (reporting, formal complaints, etc).  The authority to use force (or not) for protecting persons from violent crimes would doctrinally be an ROE issue that cannot be discussed here.

Dictating that the age of maturity be late or post teens (as opposed to early or mid teens) is not our prerogative.  On the issue of age of maturity, you can even see differences between Europe & N. America, Canada & the US, and even province to province.  Afghan prostitution is something else outside of our prerogative (and besides, we don't really have the moral high ground on this when such facilities are openly operating in Canadian cities & advertising in the yellow pages).  Homosexual spring-autumn relations?  Well, making exception for differing views on age of majority, I'm sure we have such relations in our country and as a society we have come to accept homosexual relations as ethical.  Gold-digging seems to be a celebrated activity within the western tabloid media.  On all of these issues we can demand our soldiers & Canadian contractors not participate and that all persons within or fobs & bases conform to western moral standards.  If any transformation of the Afghan society at large is to take place, it is the domain of the political/diplomatic effort and it is not the role of the military effort.

Physically taking control of another person and having one's way with them, rape, is a violent crime.  With respect to this we should be doing something from use of force (as/if authorized by ROE) or reporting to Afghan police to officially complaining to the Afghan government if such acts are the work of Afghan government agents (security or otherwise).  

Suggestions of crimes against humanity are over the top.  Nothing of the sort has been hinted to have occurred.  Just because a crime was committed by soldiers and happened to be on the (now frequently) quoted list, it is not automatically a crime against humanity.  One may as well suggest that the beating death of a Toronto homeless man was a crime against humanity ... but that's just getting silly.

As for the role in Afghanistan, one can find the international mandate on page 3 here: http://www.unama-afg.org/news/_londonConf/_docs/06jan30-AfghanistanCompact-Final.pdf
One will also not the specifically stated importance of respecting the sovereignty of the Afghan government.  It is the Afghan government (and only the afghan government) that can decide which moral issues are of such significance as to be legislated and enforced (and how they will be enforced) within the nation.


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## The Bread Guy (21 Jun 2008)

Lotsa good discussion here, indeed - didn't think it would go this long when I first posted the original article.


Should we try to change Afghan societal ideas about pedophilia and homosexualty?  

Agreed that it's WAY out of ISAF's/OEF's lanes, and outside the lanes of the West, whose own house may not be spotless on a lot of things.


Should we change ROE's and other rules to hunt down pedophilia in the AFG security forces?  

Agreed that there's LOTS more pressing "must do's" before this (what I consider) "should do".


Can you have AFG security forces fully trusted by the population they defend and protect if people know they may be chickenhawking their kids?  Even in their off time?  Even if it's accepted behaviour among civilians?  

No way.


Could AFG security forces' BEHAVIOUR be changed (as opposed to attitudes) in this respect?  

Not impossible, given you can train cops/troops to do things contrary to their personal safety and security interests.


Like many government "problem-solution" equations, though, I guess it does come down to "where do you start?" and "what can we do with the time/resources/rules we have?"


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## George Wallace (21 Jun 2008)

milnewstbay said:
			
		

> Should we change ROE's and other rules to hunt down pedophilia in the AFG security forces?



The "Legalities" involved with changes to ROE's makes this highly unlikely.


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## Fishbone Jones (21 Jun 2008)

Our ROE's are set to reflect Canadian values and society, based on the rules of war and conventions.

If, in Bosnia, would we stop a local from drinking alcohol at 16, because our age of majority is 19? Of course not, but why not? Because its clearly against our laws and culture, but not theirs, that's why.

If, in Afghanistan, the kid is prostituting himself at 14, that's a police matter, set for and reserved by the duly elected government of Afghanistan to sort out......... if they consider it a crime worth persuing. Go to the strips in TO or Vancouver, you'll see the same type of young kids trolling and cruising, and the same blind eye is turned all the time.

It's Afghanistan's law to administer, not ours. We may find it distasteful, but infringing on their culture is not our business.

If the kid is seen being abducted and raped, it can 'then' become our business, provided we can prove it, and we are sure that's what we are seeing.

It is not up to us to impose our moral ethics on anyone else. Civilization, evolution and conscience will eventually take care of that.

People have to be careful. It's a long fall from the top of that self righteous, moral high horse. 

Especially if the government of the host country doesn't agree with you. And just because they don't, doesn't mean that you're right. The clash of cultures and civilizations won't stop in Afghanistan.


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## GAP (12 Jul 2008)

Afghan warlords keeping boys as sex slaves: UN
Posted Tue Jul 8, 2008 11:03am AEST 
Article Link

Afghanistan must do more to end an age-old practice of young boys being kept as sex slaves by wealthy and powerful patrons, the UN special representative for children and armed conflict said.

Radhika Coomaraswamy said the practice, called "bacha bazi" - literally "boy play" - was a taboo subject, but she had heard reports of warlords and military commanders keeping young boys and "exploiting them in terrible ways".

"What I found was nobody talks about it; everyone says 'Well, you know, it's been there for 1,000 years so why do we want to raise this now?'" she told a news conference at UN headquarters, reporting on a visit to Afghanistan last week.

"That seems to be the general attitude among everyone, but somebody has to raise it and it has to be dealt with."

Known as "bacha bereesh," boys without beards, the victims of such abuse are teenage boys who dress up as girls and dance for male patrons at parties in northern Afghanistan.

"We feel that a campaign should be run to raise awareness about this issue and to stop this practice," she said.

"We talk about sexual violence against girls and women, which is also terrible, but this hidden issue of sexual violence against boys should also be dealt with seriously."

Afghan police have tried to crack down on the practice and Islamic clerics say those involved should be stoned for sodomy, which is forbidden under Islamic law.

In a society where the sexes are strictly segregated, it is common for men to dance for other men at weddings in Afghanistan. 

But in northern Afghanistan, former warlords and mujahideen commanders have taken that a step further, sometimes taking the boys as "mistresses".

Police and security officials in northern Afghanistan say they have been doing their best to arrest the men involved.

"It is sad to state that this practice that includes making boys dance, sexual abuse and sometimes even selling boys, has been going on for years," security chief of Kunduz province General Asadollah Amarkhil said.

"We have taken steps to stop it to the extent that we are able."

Gen Amarkhil said poverty, widespread in Afghanistan after nearly three decades of war, forced teenage boys into compliance.

Ms Coomaraswamy said raising awareness and prosecuting those responsible was the first step to ending the practice as it would act as a deterrent to others.

She said she was also concerned about a rise in the recruitment of child soldiers by the Taliban and others in recent months, as well as about civilian casualties including children from US-led coalition raids and air strikes.

- Reuters
End


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## The Bread Guy (12 Jul 2008)

And a transcript of the news conference


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## Brad Sallows (13 Jul 2008)

>Afghan warlords keeping boys as sex slaves: UN

Now all we need is for an Afghan news agency to pick up on certain stories and report something along the lines of "UN forces keeping children as sex slaves: Afghan warlords".


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## Ex-Dragoon (13 Jul 2008)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >Afghan warlords keeping boys as sex slaves: UN
> 
> Now all we need is for an Afghan news agency to pick up on certain stories and report something along the lines of "UN forces keeping children as sex slaves: Afghan warlords".



Hasn't that already occured in Africa and Bosnia?


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## The Bread Guy (13 Jul 2008)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Hasn't that already occured in Africa and Bosnia?



Yup and yup, as well as in Haiti and elsewhere.



			
				Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Now all we need is for an Afghan news agency to pick up on certain stories and report something along the lines of "UN forces keeping children as sex slaves: Afghan warlords".



So, let's not mention *any* of the problems that need dealing with in AFG, lest we get painted with a propaganda brush saying we throw rocks while living in a glass house of our own?  

We couldn't talk about schooling girls in AFG, then, until we deal with EVERY "glass ceiling" issue here.  ("Canada building schools for AFG girls while women in Canada still earning less than men")

We shouldn't mention improving the AFG justice system, either, otherwise we'll hear about David Milgaard, Donald Marshall or Guy Paul Morin. 

If we go down this road, we wouldn't even be able to mention helping make AFG streets safer to walk down because there are still streets in the Western world that aren't.

I understand it's not our role (nor would I want it to be given the task, given its history, scale and complexity to change *society's attitudes* re:  sexual abuse of kids.  We can have a role, though, in very narrowly and specifically shaping and affecting the *behaviour* of security forces.  Not *how they think*, but *what they do*.


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## The Bread Guy (3 Oct 2008)

Necrothread resurrected with new info


Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the _Copyright Act._

*Claims of Afghan soldiers raping boys prompts Canadian investigation*
David ******** ,  Canwest News Service,  3 Oct 08
Article link

The Canadian Forces will launch a board of inquiry to look into allegations that soldiers' complaints about Afghan troops and police raping boys were ignored by the military leadership.  Military police have also launched an investigation into the same incidents.  The issue surfaced in the summer after media reports detailed soldiers' concerns about sexual abuse of boys at the hands of Afghan personnel .... In July, Chief of the Defence Staff Gen. Walter Natynczyk confirmed that a board of inquiry would be convened into the allegations.  The military is now ready to proceed, according to the Defence Department.  "We expect the board of inquiry to be convened in the coming days," an e-mail from a department official noted ....

More on link


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## 052 (4 Oct 2008)

I wonder if this becomes common place on the street. how a western soldier who had been abused as a kid would react seeing it every day, every parol?


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## IntlBr (4 Oct 2008)

I heard about this a few years ago from a friend who had been over, and witnessed it happening inside KAF between some buildings, and since then have heard that it is exceptionally common.

Anyone heard of  "Man Love Thursdays"?


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## The Bread Guy (22 Nov 2008)

*Board of Inquiry convened to investigate circumstances of alleged assault by Afghan National Security Forces*
CF news release NR – 08-082, 21 Nov 08
News release link

KINGSTON, ON– LtGen Andrew Leslie, Chief of the Land Staff, today announced that a Board of Inquiry has been convened at CFB Kingston to investigate the circumstances surrounding the allegations made last June of assault by Afghan National Security Forces members in the Kandahar Province, Afghanistan, in late 2006 or early 2007.

MGen Marquis Hainse, Commander of the Land Force Doctrine and Training System, is the convening authority and appointed BGen Glenn Nordick as the Board President leading a team of a minimum of eight members and advisors.

“We will examine and report on these allegations to determine what may have occurred, the circumstances surrounding these allegations, what the Canadian Forces responsibility is in instances such as these, what actions were taken as a result, and to make specific recommendations for the future,” said BGen Nordick. “Given the sensitive nature of these allegations, we will make every effort to involve and fully inform the Afghan government as we progress.”

“The Board of Inquiry will identify and interview all appropriate and available witnesses, and obtain all available relevant records and documentary evidence, consulting all pertinent legislation, regulations, orders, directives and instructions,” added BGen Nordick. “We will determine whether the allegations can be substantiated and whether such incidents were reported by the chain of command or other Canadian Forces networks, and the outcome.”

The Board of Inquiry will determine whether the incident, and the Canadian Forces response to it, resulted in changes to any applicable orders or directions, whether any similar incidents were reported since 2006 and if the response was adequate, having regard to all circumstances.

Upon completion of the work being conducted by the Board of Inquiry, a report will be forwarded to the Chief of the Land Staff. The findings, results and recommendations will be made public, subject to the limitations on the release of information imposed by the Privacy Act and the Access to Information Act.

The Board of Inquiry is expected to be completed in the spring of 2009.

-30-

Note to Editors: This BOI is not to be confused with the ongoing BOI into in-theatre handling of detainees, but rather stems from allegations reported in the media of possible abuse of Afghan minors by Afghan National Security Forces ....


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## twistedcables (25 Nov 2008)

How about: this is just more reason to stay and complete the mission?  Wait till you actually SEE it happen - good luck trying to get any sleep for the rest of your life.  Personally, I would (like to) shot the mo-fo in the left testicle - just giv the order SIR!


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## medaid (25 Nov 2008)

I think we can remove the question mark in the title and replace it with a period. It is an issue. Not maybe, or perhaps an issue.


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## MG34 (25 Nov 2008)

Of course it's an issue, but one for the Afghans to sort out, not a bunch of crusading do gooders dressed in Cadpat. I could give a damn about their culture or their practices,nor should anyone else who was not born there. We are there to secure the country to allow reconstruction and support the government of Afghanistan, no where does it say we are to change the culture.


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## twistedcables (25 Nov 2008)

We affect foreign cultures inevitably and especially through military intervention.  Not to mention what the public has been sold on as to the reasons for the mission.  Sure some of them are very noble (girls schooling, opposing violent Islamic rule etc.) and yes, some of it, blatantly ideological (neo-con etc.).  Part of that message is grafted onto the soldier's psyche to make him/her more committed to the mission.  It helps, I guess.

But MG called it: the mission as far as we ought to be concerned is secure the country and support the elected govt.  I just worry about mental health blowback.


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## Command-Sense-Act 105 (25 Nov 2008)

MG34 said:
			
		

> ...one for the Afghans to sort out...We are there to secure the country to allow reconstruction and support the government of Afghanistan.


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## The Bread Guy (30 Nov 2008)

From what appears to be a PAK blogger posting a reportedly unpublished editorial about tolerating homosexuality, to give a bit of one person's view of the broader cultural issue....


> ....for years, homosexuality in Pashtun society has been an open secret, although it might well be exaggerated.  According to local tradition, many men live by the credo “Women for duty; boys for pleasure.”  Indeed, Afghans often dress up pretty boys as girls, and have them dance in public.  According to Afghan tradition, even birds cover their rear with their wings when flying over Kandahar....


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## PanaEng (2 Dec 2008)

Excellent thread! Good points for both  the extremes of the issue and the middle. 

I tend to sympathize with 48th  view but we also have to keep in mind our priorities as a force that is part of a UN/NATO mission.
That being said, I couldn't look the other way while a violent crime is being committed - I'm talking about rape, etc. ROE's be dammed. 
It is against their laws (sodomy, adultery, "man love" - check the Quran and Hadith) and against my principles - I would figure out ways to write it up later.

Brings to mind the hypocrisy of those who would stone a woman for showing some skin in public or being without a male relative escort but look the other way on rape (it is seen as the victims fault).


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## The Bread Guy (3 Dec 2008)

More on Canada's dilemma from _Strategy Page_:


> .... Foreign troops operating in southern Afghanistan quickly learn that this is a place where men are men, even if they are sexually attracted to other men, and especially boys .... Naturally, foreign troops are told to be careful with local ways, and not offend Afghans by mocking or criticizing local customs that offend, or amuse, foreign sensibilities.
> 
> This puts the Canadian military in an uncomfortable position. To admit to knowledge of these pederast practices would oblige them to intervene to prevent such abuse of children. This, of course, would raise an uproar among Afghans. First of all, Afghans officially deny that such practices exist. Islam forbids it, even though homosexuality and pederasty is common in many Moslem nations. Many powerful men indulge, and will use force to deal with anyone who brings public attention to such activity. But the Canadian public may demand that Canadian troops aggressively seek to halt such activity. Since the Afghan men in question tend to be armed, this will get ugly quickly.
> 
> Moreover, the Taliban and drug gangs have continued to recruit teenage boys for service as gunmen. Younger boys have been kidnapped, or bought from their parents, to satisfy the sexual needs of some Taliban and drug gang members. Underage kids are also used as suicide bombers. More boys than girls have been taken for sexual reasons....


----------



## Babbling Brooks (15 Dec 2008)

More from Rick Westhead at TorStar, and my response to it at _The Torch_.


----------



## The Bread Guy (15 Dec 2008)

> ....I'm told that the OMLT's and POMLT's are already advising the ANSF that they mentor that regardless of cultural traditions, it's unprofessional conduct from a force whose raison d'etre is the protection of Afghan citizens....



If this is happening, then I'm pleased something's being done - thanks for sharing this, BB.  As for any other allegations (none proven in any venue that I've heard of to this point, I might add), I'm happy to wait for the BOI report.  As for Dr. Byers, well, others have said it better than me....   :

_- edited to add allegations info - _


----------



## pbi (21 Dec 2008)

One thing is certain from the legal point of view: whatever would be considered a criminal offence in Canada is to be viewed by us as a criminal offence no matter where we are in the world. Homosexual acts are not illegal in Canada, but sexual assault against children is.  (And, by the way, is also illegal under Afghan national law).  That means (at a minimum...) that if we see it happening, we report it. But, just like in Canada, what happens after we report it depends on many things. Just because an OC or a CO took no overt action doesn't automatically mean that anything was covered up. There may not have been enough grounds to act. I'm happy to say that the officer in charge of the BoI is somebody I've known for well over twenty years, and I do believe he intends to do the best job possible. The results won't be nice, and they certainly will not satisfy everybody. BoIs rarely do.  But that is not a reason not to do them.

But, IMHO, we have a moral and ethical duty to investigate this matter that goes far beyond any narrow legalistic interpretation, or any desire to avoid embarassing the host nation. That is why we're having a senior BoI even though it seems that there may be very little hard evidence, and great difficulty in gathering any. Whether we like it or not, abuse of the weak by the strong is a universal ethical issue, regardless of whose moral code you choose to follow. And, IMHO, also whether we like it or not, we *are * about changing the culture in that country. For example, when things like police and govt corruption are so imbedded in the culture that they affect the operational outcomes of our mission to help the nation to self-determination, then the culture needs to change. The OMLTs and POMLTs, by professionalizing their respective parts of the ANSF, are changing culture. The Army has always been a very central and important institution in Afghanistan, so it's difficult to imagine that you could change its culture without having an effect on the rest of the nation.  The effects of a fully professional ANP on Afghan society would be enormous by anybody's estimate.

"Change", to me, does NOT mean we make them into little Canadians or little Americans, or tell them to abandon Islam or shave off their beards. What it does mean is that we do everything that is reasonably in our power to help  Afghans (especially those in positions of power) realize that some things they do are unethical. Not "immoral" which is a very culture-specific judgement, but unethical, which is far more universally understood and accepted. The long term solution in Afghanistan doesn't really lie in our hands as a military force anyway: it will be decided by changes to their education, their governance, and the way they relate to each other. If we just treat everything as a kinetic problem, and ignore the other stuff that we could usefully influence, IMHO we're making a mistake.

Cheers

pbi


----------



## ENGINEERS WIFE (12 May 2009)

Afghan sex-abuse allegations unfounded: military police 

By Murray Brewster, THE CANADIAN PRESS 
    
  
OTTAWA - Allegations that Canadian commanders turned a blind eye to sexual abuse of young boys by Afghan soldiers and police have been dismissed as unfounded by military investigators. 

The Canadian Forces National Investigative Service, which oversees military police, says it has determined allegations made by returning soldiers and the pastors who counselled them contained "serious discrepancies" and could not be verified. 

"There's rumours and innuendos of course, but there's no information to corroborate those allegations," said Lt.-Col. Gilles Sansterre, head of the investigative branch. 

At least two soldiers have claimed they witnessed young Afghan boys being led into a Canadian forward operating base, where they were sodomized by Afghan troops and police. 

"We interviewed a number of people that could provide us some information and the bottom line is that testimony of some people was inconsistent and could not be corroborated by others," said Sansterre. 

"We've been led to the conclusion the allegations are unfounded." 

Maj. Kevin Klein, a high-ranking chaplain, has said publicly he warned commanders in 2007 about accounts of sex abuse that he was hearing from soldiers. 

Another chaplain, Jean Johns, said she counselled a Canadian soldier who said he witnessed a boy being raped and then wrote a report on the allegation for her brigade chaplain. 

Despite their claims, Sansterre said military police found no evidence that the allegations were reported to the chain of command. 

The investigation was thorough, and in the end there was no evidence Canadian military law was broken, he added. 

The fact the alleged crimes happened in Afghanistan was a complicating factor in the investigation. 

Sansterre said military police have jurisdiction over Canadian soldiers and civilians in the war-torn region, not Afghan nationals in their own country. 

There wasn't even enough evidence to pass along to Afghan police for them to launch their own investigation, he said. 

The allegations that Afghan soldiers, police and even interpreters sexually abused young boys while on Canadian bases in Kandahar also prompted a wider investigation involving a military board inquiry, which has yet to deliver its findings. 

The NDP's defence critic called it an "unconvincing report" and accused the military of sweeping the matter under the rug. 

"There's an effort here to close the file on this thing and I don't think that's the right thing to do," said Newfoundland MP Jack Harris. 

"It's pretty clear that these reports were passed on to the chain of command and what we want to know is what was done about them." 

Documents obtained by the New Democrats under the Access to Information Act show that after the allegations were raised in public, senior officers ordered to soldiers to report any suspected cases of abuse so they could flag them for investigation by Afghan officials. 

The troops, however, expressed skepticism to padres in the field that much would be done about it - citing the Afghan tribal code of justice. 

Pashtunwali "is very different from ours (system) and enforcement is not very effective," said the June 2008 monthly pastoral report. 


http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/05/12/9435221-cp.html


----------



## The Bread Guy (12 May 2009)

Highlights mine, from the news release:


> The Canadian Forces National Investigation Service (CFNIS) has concluded its investigation into whether any service or criminal offences were committed by Canadian Forces (CF) members in relation to the alleged sexual abuse of Afghan male children in Afghanistan by Afghan National Army and Afghan interpreters.
> 
> *The investigation determined that CF Military Police in Afghanistan did not receive any complaints on the alleged sexual abuse of Afghan male children.*
> 
> ...



and slightly re-worded from the Backgrounder:


> ....*Findings*
> 
> The CFNIS investigated whether any service or criminal offences were committed by Canadian Forces (CF) members, including by the Military Police, in relation to the alleged sexual abuse of Afghan male children by Afghan soldiers and by interpreters employed by the CF. The investigation concluded that all allegations were unfounded and that no service or criminal offences were committed by CF members Following are the findings of the investigation:
> 
> ...



Nothing from the Board of Inquiry yet ....


----------



## GAP (19 Sep 2009)

Mod edited to comply with Milnet.ca policy.

*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## BlueJingo (19 Sep 2009)

> Having sex with children is against the law in Afghanistan, but some military officers have argued that since it is practised by some Afghans, particularly in Kandahar, then the Canadian Forces should not get involved in what should be seen as a "cultural" issue.



I am sorry, but "cultural" issue or not it's *STILL *against the law.

This sickens me.   :rage:

Hmmm....... if cannibalism is a cultural practice in some places i guess we can kill people as long as we eat them... _(BTW i was using this as sarcasm)_  :-X


----------



## TCBF (19 Sep 2009)

- You are aware, that in certain modern military cultures, sodomy is practically on the Table Of Punishments, right?


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Sep 2009)

TCBF said:
			
		

> - You are aware, that in certain modern military cultures, sodomy is practically on the Table Of Punishments, right?


As close as our own backyard, so to speak.


----------



## Kat Stevens (19 Sep 2009)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> As close as our own backyard, so to speak.



Sounded to me like he meant sodomy AS a punishment, not grounds for it.


----------



## TCBF (19 Sep 2009)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Sounded to me like he meant sodomy AS a punishment, not grounds for it.



- Yup. That's what I meant all right.


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Sep 2009)

Oopsie - In the words of Jack Nicholson in "A Few Good Men," "Well, don't I feel like a ....." (no pun intended)

Also, more back & forth on this one here:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/77328.15


----------



## Cloud Cover (20 Sep 2009)

TCBF said:
			
		

> - You are aware, that in certain modern military cultures, sodomy is practically on the Table Of Punishments, right?



So retired Gen Al Haig ratted out Nixon because he was under punishment?   http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1356&dat=19821101&id=JZoTAAAAIBAJ&sjid=AwYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5908,4109


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## George Wallace (20 Sep 2009)

Jingo said:
			
		

> I am sorry, but "cultural" issue or not it's *STILL *against the law.
> 
> This sickens me.   :rage:
> 
> Hmmm....... if cannibalism is a cultural practice in some places i guess we can kill people as long as we eat them... _(BTW i was using this as sarcasm)_  :-X


Comments like the above, are out of sheer ignorance.  We are not imposing Canadian, or Western Culture, on Afghanistan, and what is the norm here is not the norm there.  Our Laws are not their Laws, just as their Laws are not our Laws when we look at them bringing their 'habits' to Canada.  We are not in Afghanistan to impose Western cultural values on the Afghans.  We are there to create the stability for them to take care of their own nation in a stable envirionment.  

I side with BulletMagnet in that the people, including the one named, involved in bringing this to the news are grossely ignorant of what we are striving to do.  We are not there to to impose our culture and proprieties on Afghans.  We can not commit to doing that, as it is diametericly opposed to what our aim is.

These "Goodie Two Shoes" types are crying foul for what we are doing, and then crying foul for what we are not doing.  They can't have it both ways.  I doubt they can make up their own minds, so we should condemn the ignorant persons who fashion themselves to be "whitsle blowers", but really are nothing more than ignorant bigots.


----------



## TCBF (21 Sep 2009)

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> So retired Gen Al Haig ratted out Nixon because he was under punishment?   http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1356&dat=19821101&id=JZoTAAAAIBAJ&sjid=AwYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5908,4109



- "Deep Throat" was not General Haig, but was in fact FBI Agent W. Mark Felt, who died less than a year ago. He rose to become the Deputy Director of the FBI.


----------



## The Bread Guy (21 Sep 2009)

MODS:  Any merit in bringing this all into this already-started thread on the same investigation?
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/77328.15



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> We are not imposing Canadian, or Western Culture, on Afghanistan, and what is the norm here is not the norm there .... We are not in Afghanistan to impose Western cultural values on the Afghans.  We are there to create the stability for them to take care of their own nation in a stable environment.


Agreed - we're not there to make a cookie-cutter "democracy" (even if that was possible).



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> Our Laws are not their Laws, just as their Laws are not our Laws when we look at them bringing their 'habits' to Canada.


To to be clear, it IS against Afghan's own laws of the land (pg. 136 of PDF)....


> Penal Code, 1976
> CHAPTER EIGHT: Adultery, Pederasty, and Violations of Honour
> Article 427:
> “(1) A person who commits adultery or pederasty shall be sentenced to long imprisonment.
> ...


  

Do we have bigger fish to fry?  Oh yeah.  Should anyone training AFG cops or troops let this go if they see it?  In _theory_, no way, but in _practice_, not so easy, given the cultural sensibilities....


----------



## BlueJingo (21 Sep 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Comments like the above, are out of sheer ignorance.  We are not imposing Canadian, or Western Culture, on Afghanistan, and what is the norm here is not the norm there.  Our Laws are not their Laws, just as their Laws are not our Laws when we look at them bringing their 'habits' to Canada.  We are not in Afghanistan to impose Western cultural values on the Afghans.  We are there to create the stability for them to take care of their own nation in a stable envirionment.
> 
> I side with BulletMagnet in that the people, including the one named, involved in bringing this to the news are grossely ignorant of what we are striving to do.  We are not there to to impose our culture and proprieties on Afghans.  We can not commit to doing that, as it is diametericly opposed to what our aim is.
> 
> These "Goodie Two Shoes" types are crying foul for what we are doing, and then crying foul for what we are not doing.  They can't have it both ways.  I doubt they can make up their own minds, so we should condemn the ignorant persons who fashion themselves to be "whitsle blowers", but really are nothing more than ignorant bigots.



Uhhh if you look at the quote from the original article it shows that it is against the law IN AFGHANISTAN!

It's against Their law too!


----------



## George Wallace (21 Sep 2009)

You will also notice this statement:



> It is the position of the Canadian Forces that its troops have no jurisdiction over the activities of Afghan military and police personnel, even those operating on Canadian bases.


----------



## tango22a (21 Sep 2009)

Post Removed as was considered offensive.

tango22a


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## BlueJingo (21 Sep 2009)

I know, but isn't it still their responsibility (Afghan Police) to uphold their OWN penal code?


Penal Code for the Republic of Afghanistan

Article 429: 1) A person who, through violence, throat, or deceit, violates the chastity of another (whether male or female), or initiates the act, shall be sentenced to long imprisonment, not exceeding seven years.
2) In the case where the person against whom the crime is committed is not eighteen years old, or the person who commits the crime is one of the persons specified under paragraph 2 of Article 427 of this Law, the offender shall be sentenced to long imprisonment, not exceeding ten years.

http://www.idlo.int/Afghanlaws/CD%20Laws%201921%20-%20to%20date%20in%20English/Afghan%20Laws%20in%20English%20(and%20other%20languages)/Penal%20Code%201976.pdf


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## Eye In The Sky (21 Sep 2009)

OK.

Its against our, and their law.

CF personnel have no legal juridiction over it.  Great.  

Its still wrong, it is still sickening and something should be done about it.  Whatever pressure the Canadian government, ISAF, NATO, whoever can put on them to punish those doing it, that pressure should be put on.

Its against the laws to throw acid on little girls, and when that happened there was a bit of an uproar about it, including the members of this site/forum.  Is this not as horrific and wrong?

Some of you are trying to draw attention to the peas, when the real issue is the steak.  In this case, the steak happens to be sick motherfuckers raping boys.  

We seem to be able to make it so woman can vote and little girls can go to school.  But we just turn our eyes when it is little boys being sexually abused?  I don't think the "but that isn't our job" line works with most people who are reading about this one, sorry.

Tango22A,

That post of yours is in REALLY bad taste.  Got any grandsons?


----------



## George Wallace (21 Sep 2009)

Jurisdiction.  

I love it that we are condemned as trying to impose Western values on the Afghans, only to be condemned for not trying to impose Western values on Afghans.  

What's that old army saying?       F'd if you do; F'd if you don't.

Jingo/Eye In The Sky

There are a lot of homophobes out there, even in Middle Eastern and Southwest Asian cultures.  Laws are made, yet totally ignored.  Homosexual acts are commited in dozens of these countries, yet not considered homosexual in any way.  It seems that there is a double standard in what they consider homosexual and what they consider a norm.  Your definitions and their definitions are not the same.


----------



## BlueJingo (21 Sep 2009)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Some of you are trying to draw attention to the peas, when the real issue is the steak.  In this case, the steak happens to be sick motherfuckers raping boys.



Above quote: I agree

---

And, George Wallace, as for trying to impose western values on the Afghans, they (The Afghans) obviously thought it was wrong enough to put it in their own penal code don't you think?


----------



## Edward Campbell (21 Sep 2009)

This is, quite clearly, a morally difficult issue for many Canadians, Canadian soldiers included.

Canadians may not have any direct authority to intervene or to force changes but, at the very least, we need:

1. A *formal* channel of reporting - so that soldiers can, at least, have "done something," however inadequate, and so that, at the very least, the CF does not have to endure a constant drubbing in the press because it ignores the problem;

2. A *formal* channel for _advising_ the Government of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan that these actions *lower* the level of Canadian support for the mission and for the Afghan government; and

3. A *formal* feedback channel - so that the soldier who made the intial report knows that _something_, however inadequate, was done about the issue.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (21 Sep 2009)

Well, there is no double standard in what I read their law states.

DUI is an offence in Canada, yet people still do it.  If/when they are caught, they are then punished.  Sure people will do it, and there isn't much you can do to stop them, but they should damn well be held accountable once caught and proven guilty.

I see no difference here.  I know one thing;  there are little boys suffering and that ain't cool.

For the record, I see the resolution of this coming from outside the CF, and am not suggesting that it is the CF or CF personnel that are dropping the ball.  This is a diplomatic or political issue and one that should be solved internally.  

I certainly don't know the facts, or all of them, but I know what I think of sick bastards that target kids.


----------



## George Wallace (21 Sep 2009)

Jingo said:
			
		

> And, George Wallace, as for trying to impose western values on the Afghans, they (The Afghans) obviously thought it was wrong enough to put it in their own penal code don't you think?



Yes they did, but again, their concepts of homosexual differ vastly from yours.  Afghans are not the only ones in this case.  You can go to dozens of countries and find the same views.  You can go to Turkey.  You can go to several African nations.  You can go to the Far East.  You will find the idea of "Tea Boys" is not restricted to one nation.  You will also find that many of these nations also condemn homosexual acts, and at the same time condone them.  

You are placing your values above theirs, in their nation, and their culture.  You are treading into someone else's jurisdiction in your outrage of these acts.  Do you have the right to be judgmental of them in their country?

I am sure I can ask if you have visited a friend or neighbour's home and seen them smoke in the presence of children.  Have you had them arrested?  That, too, is against the Law; and Canadian Law, not foreign, in a foreign land.


EITS

This is not an internal problem, other than our imposing our standards on foreigners, which is wrong.  It is the problem of a foreign nation to solve in their own manner.  You can take offence all you want.  It is not your problem to dictate a solution.  It is theirs to solve.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (21 Sep 2009)

George,

That is actually what I meant when I said "internally", I guess I just didn't explain myself thoroughly enough.  I think Canada should let their government know what "our" stance is as a society on it...which is apparantly there stance (legally, if nothing else).


----------



## tango22a (21 Sep 2009)

EITS:

Expecting first grandson momentarily, his mother back from roto.

I don't condone this in any way! Maybe I didn't express myself properly. You know as well as I do that a lot of people would rather ignore a problem, hoping it will go away, and not explode all over them.

I am willing to remove the offending post soonest!

tango22a

EITS: Offending post has been erased.

t22a


----------



## Eye In The Sky (21 Sep 2009)

Seen, and from my end...sorry.  I thought you meant that in a way that you likely didn't.


----------



## George Wallace (21 Sep 2009)

Let's just be clear here.  I don't think any of us condone these acts.  What the problem is, is one of jurisdiction, and as "guests" in their land, we have no jurisdiction other than on our own personnel, who it might also be pointed out, are subject to the laws of the Host nation, as well as our own.  How and where they (the Host nation) interpret and enforce their Law is their matter.  We may be able to make a complaint through Diplomatic Channels, but that is more or less the extent of our capabilities.


----------



## BlueJingo (21 Sep 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> We may be able to make a complaint through Diplomatic Channels, but that is more or less the extent of our capabilities.



Agreed.


----------



## The Bread Guy (21 Sep 2009)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> This is, quite clearly, a morally difficult issue for many Canadians, Canadian soldiers included.
> 
> Canadians may not have any direct authority to intervene or to force changes but, at the very least, we need:
> 
> ...





			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> We may be able to make a complaint through Diplomatic Channels, but that is more or less the extent of our capabilities.



Thanks for these tidbits - given the jurisdictional and cultural sensitivities, these may be the only workable method of squaring the circle.  One add-on from me on ERC's second point:


> 2. A *formal* channel for _advising_ the Government of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan that these actions *lower* the level of Canadian support for the mission and for the Afghan government, as well as potentially reducing the Afghan people's faith in the integrity of any security forces who may be guilty of such acts



_- edited to add better metaphor -_


----------



## Soldier1stTradesman2nd (21 Sep 2009)

Various definitions of homosexuality across the world aside, what was witnessed and the what the main issue here is the open and unabashed exploitation of minors for sexual purposes. And of all institutions WE (the CF and other western elements) are there to train and elevate to a higher standard of conduct, the Afghan security forces are being mentioned specifically. The former soldier interviewed mentions witnessing an incident right in the ANP HQ, and would not intervene for fear of causing an altercation. Question here is where are the CF's arcs of fire when it comes to establishing standards of conduct for one of the key security institutions that are supposed to UPHOLD the law (Afghan law no less). How can we reach any milestones or developmental phases when these institutions continue to be seen as corrupt, incompetent, underequipped etc etc? And adding child sodomy and threats of other violence (ref the knife) to the mix...??
The issue is not the imposition of Canadian (or other Western) values on Afghans, it is establishing minimum values that adhere to common and formal law and human rights standards.


----------



## George Wallace (21 Sep 2009)

Soldier1stTradesman2nd said:
			
		

> The issue is not the imposition of Canadian (or other Western) values on Afghans, it is establishing minimum values that adhere to common and formal law and human rights standards.



Sorry, but it is an imposition of Western "Values".  Not everyone in the world believe in or have reached the level of agreement in what are formal laws and human rights.  In many cases these are extremely foreign concepts to them.


----------



## Soldier1stTradesman2nd (21 Sep 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Sorry, but it is an imposition of Western "Values".  Not everyone in the world believe in or have reached the level of agreement in what are formal laws and human rights.  In many cases these are extremely foreign concepts to them.



Not so foreign to be included in the Afghan law, as posted earlier. Thus formal law applies. Again, how are we, the CF, going to evaluate success in "raising" these security institutions (in conjunction with others lead by CIDA, DFAIT etc) if we don't have certain benchmarks, aka acceptable standards in place? Our exit strategy (if there is one) is ensuring Afghan institutions reach a level where they can manage their own affairs and carry on COIN etc on their own. Certainly the CF should have a mechanism in place where transgressions (esp as heinous as what is discussed in this topic) are reported and dealt with in some manner. We build schools here, wells there, medical outreach this and that, and yet we fully ensure that the next generation of Afghans is G2G to elevate themselves (if only by one step or two) from where they are now.


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Sep 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I love it that we are condemned as trying to impose Western values on the Afghans, only to be condemned for not trying to impose Western values on Afghans.
> 
> What's that old army saying?       F'd if you do; F'd if you don't.



100%
A while ago someone made the comment regarding new ruck sacks.
Troops bitch and bitch and bitch that they want a civilian made rucksack. Then when they get one, they bitch about it.

Same with the bugering of little boys over there.
We're told not to push our western beliefs on them. Yet we are being put under the gun for not stopping an accepted and commonly practiced tradition.


----------



## George Wallace (21 Sep 2009)

Soldier1stTradesman2nd said:
			
		

> Not so foreign to be included in the Afghan law, as posted earlier.



Right!  

Right here at home we have laws against Racism.  Correct me if I am wrong in saying that it still occurs.  We also have Regulations and Laws against Sex, Religious, Race, Age, etc. Discrimination in the workplace, including the CF, and again, correct me if I am wrong in saying that it still happens.  We are a "Western Society" and we are still having problems enforcing our Laws on our population and changing their cultural upbringings.  What do we expect of a demolished Third World State?  Do we expect the instant Mcdonald's snap of the finger, here is your Big Mac, fix?  Get real.


----------



## Soldier1stTradesman2nd (21 Sep 2009)

Never did I imply this would be easy or fixable in the near- or even medium-term. However, what struck me in the story was the brushing aside of the issue (three monkeys, anyone?). Of course, we don't have the complete story, but it is of concern that there seemed to be a lack of serious concern over this from the CF chain, despite the fact that our mandate is to train the ANSF to an acceptable standard (and that should include codes of conduct and respect/education on basic human rights).
I am not arguing the issue of crimes perpetrated in the face of existing laws in any country, including Canada. Laws exist, crimes are committed for whatever reason, lawyers/judges get paid etc etc. That's not the point here. Yes, AFG is way behind the 21st Century curve ball, but somehow we have a notion and expectation of bringing that place up to speed in relatively short order. Walking into the ANP HQ, witnessing an obvious crime committed by POLICE officers and just shrugging one's shoulders because it is a cultural "norm" is NOT acceptable by any standard.


----------



## the 48th regulator (21 Sep 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Right!
> 
> Right here at home we have laws against Racism.  Correct me if I am wrong in saying that it still occurs.  We also have Regulations and Laws against Sex, Religious, Race, Age, etc. Discrimination in the workplace, including the CF, and again, correct me if I am wrong in saying that it still happens.  We are a "Western Society" and we are still having problems enforcing our Laws on our population and changing their cultural upbringings.  What do we expect of a demolished Third World State?  Do we expect the instant Mcdonald's snap of the finger, here is your Big Mac, fix?  Get real.




Sorry George,

Has nothing to do with "Western Society".

These are crimes against humanity, specifically children and they are guilty, and should be tried by an international court, if caught.  We are there to stop this kind of action, not get notches in our belt and buy new equipment.  It is our duty to stop this, not just build schools and allow women to cast away their burquas....

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/77328/post-725180.html#msg725180

dileas

tess


----------



## PanaEng (22 Sep 2009)

when did we become "guests" there?
is that a PC way of making us and the locals feel better about it?
We are there because our ally got attacked and we are hunting the perpetrators and their supporters. Now, at the same time, we are trying to make our job easier by building up the GoIRA and the institutions that represent it - the ANA and ANP. If they fail to gain the confidence of the people, we will fail.
It is against their laws and religion regardless of how they tend to rationalize it and give it cute, innocuous names. And as the 48th reminded us earlier, human rights are universal - whether you are Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, agnostic, atheist, etc. or you own a flat overlooking Central Park or dig for roots in the Kalahari -
citing the* lefty* argument of "imposing Western values" is bad is just a cope-out.

That's just my opinion - not trying to offend anyone with the "lefty" tag, just highlighting the irony.

cheers,
Frank


----------



## PanaEng (22 Sep 2009)

forgot to add the "what would I do" part to round out the comment:

It would depend in the tactical situation. My first inclination would be to draw and stop a crime in progress.

As a recent directive from the ISAF Comd. (ISAF Commanders Counterinsurgency Guidance; pg 6) stated in para "Build Governance Capacity and Accountability:" "Looking the other way or enabling government officials who fail to meet their obligations makes you part of the problem." We "must demand Afghan leaders take appropriate action to hold corrupt officials accountable."

This could include handing over the perps to the local mullah so they can be dealt with in the Islamic way.  ;D
And, in the process, achieving some of the objectives of the COIN guidance: gaining the trust of the locals, enabling local leaders and setting the example.

Easier said than done i guess and I have not been there - but that's what I think.

cheers,
Frank


----------



## Eye In The Sky (22 Sep 2009)

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> 100%
> A while ago someone made the comment regarding new ruck sacks.
> Troops bitch and bitch and bitch that they want a civilian made rucksack. Then when they get one, they bitch about it.
> 
> ...



According to their own law, it is a crime though.  Doing nothing to stop it will produce that exact result; nothing.


----------



## George Wallace (22 Sep 2009)

PanaEng said:
			
		

> when did we become "guests" there?



When did we become "citizens" there?



			
				PanaEng said:
			
		

> is that a PC way of making us and the locals feel better about it?



No.  That is a fact.  



			
				PanaEng said:
			
		

> .......... And as the 48th reminded us earlier, human rights are universal - whether you are Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, agnostic, atheist, etc. or you own a flat overlooking Central Park or dig for roots in the Kalahari -
> citing the* lefty* argument of "imposing Western values" is bad is just a cope-out.



According to many Canadians and *Lefties* that may be so.  Unfortunately, in the big bad world, it is NOT.


----------



## BlueJingo (22 Sep 2009)

Well who is helping to re-build the ANP, would it be the duty of the donor country that is helping reconstruct the police sector to teach them to hold up their own laws? Keeping in mind that this is still against Afghanistan's Penal Code...



> At a Geneva conference on Afghanistan security in April 2002, the United States and other donor countries agreed to support the rebuilding of the security forces in post-Taliban Afghanistan. They established a “five pillars” approach, each to be led by a different nation. The United States took the lead to build the Afghan National Army (ANA). *Germany took the lead for the police sector*. The other pillars are the justice system (Italy), counternarcotics (Britain), and disarmament of illegal armed groups (Japan).
> 
> The program calls for building the Afghan National Police by requiring a comprehensive, integrated approach that encompasses leadership training, sustaining institutions and organizations, and oversight and internal control mechanisms. It has rapidly evolved beyond police readiness requirements and training to include sweeping institutional reform of the ANP through the Ministry of Interior.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan_Police_Program


----------



## Another Mom (22 Sep 2009)

I would hope the  forces have some sort of guidance from informed anthropologists, psychologists or sociologists, as well as  like-minded resources inside Afghanistan regarding how to  deal with this. This is not a one-point-in-time problem. Children who are abused do not  generally grow up to be well adjusted adults. The angry, corrupt, violent Afghan of today may have been abused 20 years ago.


----------



## PanaEng (22 Sep 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> When did we become "citizens" there?


What kind of question is that? we don't have to be invited or be citizens of a place IOT go in to the aid of a NATO ally.

I guess, perhaps we are guests of the Northern Alliance... 
And, sure, some would say that the missions are not the same - just semantics, one is the continuation of the other by whatever means seems politically palatable.


			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> No.  That is a fact.


Show me a reference - and again semantics. Would Karzai have said: thank you for your help so far, you can go now, when he was first elected?



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> According to many Canadians and *Lefties* that may be so.  Unfortunately, in the big bad world, it is NOT.


That's right. I'm glad you agree that it is a cope-out.
I'm not sure when that concept first came up (imposing Western values), perhaps reinforced by Star Trek, but I think it is inconsistent with the notion of universal human rights.

cheers,
Frank


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Sep 2009)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> According to their own law, it is a crime though.  Doing nothing to stop it will produce that exact result; nothing.



Yup.
But can we stop it?
No.  I'm not saying that we shouldn't try but when it's the ANA and Afghan police DOING the raping, which is an ingrained part of their culture for thousands of years, I have little faith that we can change them.

When the Taliban were there they stopped it (well drove it under ground) by using violent violent punishment.
We don't roll like that though. Maybe throwing money at them and trying to buy their compliance will work..


----------



## George Wallace (22 Sep 2009)

It will take several generations to correct this problem.  That will mean that we will have to remain and mentor the ANA, ANP, the elected officials, business leaders, educators, and the rest of Afghan society for a period much longer than we did in Europe after WW II, Japan, and later Korea; all of which still have foreign troops on their soil.


----------



## the 48th regulator (22 Sep 2009)

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> Yup.
> But can we stop it?
> No.  I'm not saying that we shouldn't try but when it's the ANA and Afghan police DOING the raping, which is an ingrained part of their culture for thousands of years, I have little faith that we can change them.



Yes, so was rum, sodomy and the lash in our culture.....why did it stop?  



			
				Flawed Design said:
			
		

> When the Taliban were there they stopped it (well drove it under ground) by using violent violent punishment.
> We don't roll like that though. Maybe throwing money at them and trying to buy their compliance will work..



And the they stopped women from basic humanitarian rights; identity, education, political expression etc etc.......

So why is it that Canadian soldiers wax poetically about how girls can go to schools now.  Children have shoes and can play soccer.  However when we talk about the practices terrorism of Rape, we say that it is a part of their culture, so let them have at 'er.

Anti antisemitism was a part of European culture for thousands of years, why did we stop the German from practising it?  (Uhoh, did I break Godwin's Law ?)

dileas

tess


----------



## George Wallace (22 Sep 2009)

PanaEng said:
			
		

> when did we become "guests" there?



When did we become "citizens" there?



			
				PanaEng said:
			
		

> What kind of question is that? we don't have to be invited or be citizens of a place IOT go in to the aid of a NATO ally.
> 
> I guess, perhaps we are guests of the Northern Alliance...
> And, sure, some would say that the missions are not the same - just semantics, one is the continuation of the other by whatever means seems politically palatable.



I can see you really don't understand the situation at all.  



			
				PanaEng said:
			
		

> is that a PC way of making us and the locals feel better about it?



No.  That is a fact.  And it is.  We are nothing more than "guests" and we have to remember our place; just as our troops have had to do in Germany, Bosnia, Somalia, Rwanda, Cyprus, the Golan, Pakistan, and dozens of other nations around the world that we have sent troops to do the work of the UN or NATO. 





			
				PanaEng said:
			
		

> I'm not sure when that concept first came up (imposing Western values), perhaps reinforced by Star Trek, but I think it is inconsistent with the notion of universal human rights.



Universal Human Rights is a concept foreign to many cultures and societies around the world, especially in this Region.  It is a concept and ideal of the Western World and not at all universal.  It is like the Geneva Conventions.  We in the West agree to follow those priciples.  Not all our enemies do.


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Sep 2009)

If it was up to me I'd hit these guys with a very bug stick with a rusty nail out the end. 
Hell I had a one sided physical altercation with an ANP who was beating the shit out of a puppy.

The CF needs to put their foot down, decide on what exactly to do (Allow it or prevent it) then wear the responsibility of their decision.

Leaving it up to troops, section commanders and young officers to try and figure out on their own isn't right IMO.


----------



## the 48th regulator (22 Sep 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Universal Human Rights is a concept foreign to many cultures and societies around the world, especially in this Region.  It is a concept and ideal of the Western World and not at all universal.  It is like the Geneva Conventions.  We in the West agree to follow those priciples.  Not all our enemies do.



Afghanistan signed the Geneva Convention in 1956 George....

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/WebSign?ReadForm&id=375&ps=P

Therefore, as early as 53 years ago, Afghanistan agreed to a principal of Global Safety for those that have been stipulated in the convention, and this includes children, specifically, being raped.  I don't understand where you get this "Western" concept that being a pederast is an accepted concept in Afghanistan.  It is illegal, and unacceptable by the international community, and therefore, if we are soldiering in the name of "policing" and area of the globe that is breaking these rules, we can not enforce one, and turn a blind eye to another.

dileas

tess


----------



## armyvern (22 Sep 2009)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> So why is it that Canadian soldiers wax poetically about how girls can go to schools now.  Children have shoes and can play soccer.  However when we talk about the practices terrorism of Rape, we say that it is a part of their culture, so let them have at 'er.
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess



Because the government of Afghanistan themselves made a political move to educate females and allow them to attend schools once again (we soldiers did not do that). We simply "make it safe for them to do so" because their government has allowed them to.

This situation requires "a political fix" BY the government of Afghanistan; Until & unless THEY decide that their laws which are already on the books are worth enforcing ... no amount of "complaints" (because that's ALL we can do in the meantime - complain) will force them to do otherwise.

Why they choose to ignore or overlook their own laws is the real question (there's that cultural thing again). We soldiers have no jurisdiction in enforcing Afghanistan's own laws upon Afghani citizens. 

We may certainly train the ANA for them, but we can not "hire or fire" those pers - they do not work "for" us - they work at the behest of the government of Afghanistan. And, it would seem, that currently _that_ government has no desire to uphold those employees to a higher standard or to the minimum standard of their own laws (or even hold them to a standard which we ourselves would find acceptable were they "our" employees that we actually COULD hire and fire, arrest etc).

I believe that it's the Afghan Ministry of the Interior who sets out the standards (and hires/fires) for the ANA. That's a political part of a political domain - not a foreign soldiers domain to set standards for someone else's behaviour and/or standards of morale conduct or compliance with their own national law. 

If we Canadians do not like those standards which are set out (or lack of enforcement of their own laws), then we Canadians have to complain via POLITICAL means to the Afghan government vice making it a Canadian soldier's "job" to ensure that the Afghan government enforces their own laws and holds themselves & their entities to higher standards of conduct than are currently culturally acceptable. Illegal or not - it is viewed as "culturally acceptable" there. 

A foreign soldier can do nothing (and has no jurisdiction to do anything) but complain about it unless & until the politicians deem it a "necessary endeavour" and move to effect a change.

Edward has it bang on; we soldiers need a mechanism by which to make complaints, and ergo our govnt to forward said complaints to the Govnt of Afghanistan --- but until that govnt decides to enforce or uphold it's own laws ... we soldiers can't do much _except_ complain.


----------



## the 48th regulator (22 Sep 2009)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Edward has it bang on; we soldiers need a mechanism by which to make complaints, and ergo our govnt to forward said complaints to the Govnt of Afghanistan --- but until that govnt decides to enforce or uphold it's own laws ... we soldiers can't do much _except_ complain.



So,  is Edward, and yourself, arguing that there is a systematic problem of ignorance within the chain of command in Afghanistan, or that it is not our Mission to uphold the basic tenants of law and order.  According to our government;

maintain a more secure environment and establish law and order by building the capacity of the Afghan National Army and Police, and support complementary efforts in the areas of justice and corrections.

dileas

tess


----------



## Edward Campbell (22 Sep 2009)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> So,  is Edward, and yourself, arguing that there is a systematic problem of ignorance within the chain of command in Afghanistan, or that it is not our Mission to uphold the basic tenants of law and order.  According to our government;
> 
> maintain a more secure environment and establish law and order by building the capacity of the Afghan National Army and Police, and support complementary efforts in the areas of justice and corrections.
> 
> ...



No, I'm not arguing anything.

I have made my contribution. It's not a very good idea but, under the circumstances, which are hideously complex, I suspect it is about as far as we might be willing to go.


Edit: punctuation


----------



## George Wallace (22 Sep 2009)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Afghanistan signed the Geneva Convention in 1956 George....



And which Afghan Government was that?  The Taliban?  The Karzai Government?  The Russian protectorate?  The Kingdom of Shad?   The Daoud Republic of Afghanistan?   The Democratic Republic of Afghanistan?  Which one exactly?  The Government has changed several times in the last sixty some years, and not all of them will have followed or accepted terms agreed to by previous governments.  Kind of a Red Herring.

Another point to clarify: I was not referring to Afghanistan in particular in my comparison of who follows the Geneva Conventions and who does not.  It was a general statement on a point.


----------



## the 48th regulator (22 Sep 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> And which Afghan Government was that?  The Taliban?  The Karzai Government?  The Russian protectorate?  The Kingdom of Shad?   The Daoud Republic of Afghanistan?   The Democratic Republic of Afghanistan?  Which one exactly?  The Government has changed several times in the last sixty some years, and not all of them will have followed or accepted terms agreed to by previous governments.  Kind of a Red Herring.
> 
> Another point to clarify: I was not referring to Afghanistan in particular in my comparison of who follows the Geneva Conventions and who does not.  It was a general statement on a point.




The country of Afghanistan, not a political entity.  until the Country of Afghanistan officially declares the Geneva Convention, null and void, their previous government has locked them into the international law of abiding by it.

We in Canada have agreed to serve there in a military and diplomatic capacity, to aid them in upholding it.

Pontificate all you want what the average soldier can or can not do, we as a military force must uphold these laws.  That means from the ground up.

Same reason why we are there no later that 2010, in the capacity we are now.  A descision by a previous Government, upheld by the current.  Canadian on and all.

dileas

tess


----------



## George Wallace (22 Sep 2009)

:

OK...OK

I'll tell you what; I'll buy you the airfare to get there and you can go and tell them to sort themselves out for all of us.


----------



## armyvern (22 Sep 2009)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> So,  is Edward, and yourself, arguing that there is a systematic problem of ignorance within the chain of command in Afghanistan, or that it is not our Mission to uphold the basic tenants of law and order.  According to our government;
> 
> maintain a more secure environment and establish law and order by building the capacity of the Afghan National Army and Police, and support complementary efforts in the areas of justice and corrections.
> 
> ...



We currently DO "maintain a more secure environment and establish law and order *by building the capacity of the Afghan National Army and Police* (we train them & increase their capacity - at the behest of their government)". Onto the next bit, "and *support * complementary efforts in the areas of justice and corrections" which can be accomplished via the "complaint mechanism" through Govnt to Afghan Govnt.

Once again, the key word is "support" complimentary efforts to justice and corrections. We can support adherance to their laws via complaining when they don't adhere to them, but we only get to "support that bit" - we soldiers don't get to tell the Afghan govnt that they "must enforce their overlooked/ignored laws" ... they have to do that on their own or give us powers of arrest/hire/fire over their employees who choose to "ignore" ... and they obviously need some political kicks in the asses to do so because it certainly doesn't seem as if there is any political will within the current Afghan govnt to enforce this "currently _acceptable_ cutural norm" (even though their own laws say it's illegal); rather they seem to be maintaining status quo.

We, as a military, must be given jurisdiction and powers of arrest over average Afghan citizens in order to enforce such civic law, but - that being said - we can arrest and detain all we want, but if the host nation let's the perpetrators out the back door of the jail (witness same host nation 'out the back door' releases of persons we arrested during a certain mission we were involved with in 1993) because they choose to ignore - there's not much we can do about it. Only politics at the highest level can stop that. UN sanctions anyone? Withholding of Canadian taxpayer funds headed to Afghanistan anyone? At least until the Afghan government decides to take this problem seriously and actually do something about it and begin enforcing their own laws?

As well, I don't think that I (or Edward) said anything about "ignorance" in the CoC in Afghanistan" - I don't know where you pulled that bit from ... but if you meant that I believe that the government (and, generally, Afghan citizens - treat this as "culturally acceptable" (thus ignoring) their own laws ... yep, I do.


----------



## Monsoon (22 Sep 2009)

What!? Do you mean to tell me that Rome can't be built in a day? Well in that case, there's no point even getting started!

 :


----------



## armyvern (22 Sep 2009)

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> What!? Do you mean to tell me that Rome can't be built in a day? Well in that case, there's no point even getting started!
> 
> :



 :

Who said "let's not even bother trying?"

Unfortunately, until the "political side" does THEIR job, all we can do is file a complaint about an occurance (which - I'm pretty sure is "better than nothing" and certainly should be a way to "get the ball rolling" lest you suggest that _I _ suggested that we do nothing [I believe that I even suggested some ways of giving the Afghan govnt some 'politcal kicks in the ass].)  :


----------



## the 48th regulator (22 Sep 2009)

Okay Vern,

Maybe we are all arguing the same point.  I will simply pose a basic question.

Canadian troops are serving in an area, and working along side members of the ANA and/or the national Police.  Canadian troops witness the rape of a local citizen.  What are we to do.

If you require specific details of unit size (both for the Canadians and ANA or Afghan Police) please advise.

dileas

tess


----------



## armyvern (22 Sep 2009)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Okay Vern,
> 
> Maybe we are all arguing the same point.  I will simply pose a basic question.
> 
> ...



We can make a complaint. We can even go so far as to arrest someone under Afghan civil law (only _if_ we had jurisdiction to do so), but if the Host nation Govnmt isn't willing to enforce their own laws ... we'd probably be arresting the same asshat the very next week when that "widely-known & culturally acceptable" day rolls around again. Then arrest him again the next week after that again. Around & around the soldier would go, affecting a weekly arrest, but going absolutely nowhere but through the revolving door until the politcal govnt decides to enforce it's own existing laws and effect lasting and meaningful change.

Governments get to effect change &, when they actually do so, soldiers get to enforce it (if required). We soldiers certainly can encourage a shift in the cutural ideals seemingly 'acceptable' there now by complaining about such "not being acceptable either legally or morally and making complaints ... but we can't change their minds for them - they have to have the political will and moral fortitude to do _that_ themselves.


----------



## the 48th regulator (22 Sep 2009)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> We can make a complaint. We can even go so far as to arrest someone under Afghan civil law (only _if_ we had jurisdiction to do so), but if the Host nation Govnmt isn't willing to enforce their own laws ... we'd probably be arresting the same asshat the very next week when that "widely-known & culturally acceptable" day rolls around again. Then arrest him again the next week after that again. Around & around the soldier would go, affecting a weekly arrest, but going absolutely nowhere but through the revolving door until the politcal govnt decides to enforce it's own existing laws and effect lasting and meaningful change.
> 
> Governments get to effect change &, when they actually do so, soldiers get to enforce it (if required). We soldiers certainly can encourage a shift in the cutural ideals seemingly 'acceptable' there now by complaining about such "not being acceptable either legally or morally and making complaints ... but we can't change their minds for them - they have to have the political will and moral fortitude to do _that_ themselves.



So after 8 years., 131 soldiers lost, and Hundreds injured, why are we there?

dileas

tess


----------



## armyvern (22 Sep 2009)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> So after 8 years., 131 soldiers lost, and Hundreds injured, why are we there?
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess



Because our politcal entity the government has decided that we should be there ...

and because soldiers (as well as most governments), of all people, certainly DO know that Rome was not built in a day.


----------



## the 48th regulator (22 Sep 2009)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Because soldiers, of all people, certainly DO know that Rome was not built in a day.



And Rome had laws against Pederasts too 

dileas

tess


----------



## armyvern (22 Sep 2009)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> And Rome had laws against Pederasts too
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess



Yes, rarely enforced.

We also (in 'western society') also have laws against having sex with underage children etc, but that doesn't stop a certain segment of the population from believing that this practise is "perfectly acceptable"(NAMBLA anyone??). Difference is, our government "enforces" these laws against such practices when we catch someone. (Yet, arguably, may sometimes 'overlook' this "illegal" practise occuring within 'western' society in some religions where multiple [often quite young and underage] wives occur ...


----------



## Kat Stevens (22 Sep 2009)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> And Rome had laws against Pederasts too
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess



Which were completely ignored by aristocrats and public officials with impunity.


----------



## the 48th regulator (22 Sep 2009)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Yes, rarely enforced.
> 
> We also (in 'western society') also have laws against having sex with underage children etc, but that doesn't stop a certain segment of the population from believing that this practise is "perfectly acceptable"(NAMBLA anyone??). Difference is, our government "enforces" these laws against such practices when we catch someone. (Yet, arguably, may sometimes 'overlook' this "illegal" practise occuring within 'western' society in some religions where multiple [often quite young and underage] wives occur ...



Canadians have been charged for breaking this international law too...

Remember pedophile Canadian Christopher Paul Neil, who ws chargd in Thailand?  

Interpol went after him;

http://www.interpol.int/Public/ICPO/PressReleases/PR2007/PR200748.asp

nd we have gone after war criminals, who have broken international law, that is accepted in their country;

http://montreal.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090915/mtl_montreal_munyaneza_090915/20090915/?hub=MontrealHome

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2005/10/12/warcrime051012.html

etc etc...

It is known as Universal jurisdiction.

dileas

tess



			
				Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Which were completely ignored by aristocrats and public officials with impunity.



This may be a hard one for you, evidence shows that it was against the law, but please show me where the general populace, including the government condoned the act.  Only slaves were allowed to be used in any way, and well, slavery has been abolished.





dileas

tess


----------



## Edward Campbell (22 Sep 2009)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> So after 8 years., 131 soldiers lost, and Hundreds injured, why are we there?
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess




Not to change Afghanistan's _culture_ which might include turning a blind eye to some pretty disgusting things.

We *are there* to provide just enough security so that we can leave the Afghans to make their own decisions - even decisions we will not like, in their own ways - even in ways we will not like, without too much intimidation.

The Afghans have laws; the Afghan government has some responsibility to enforce its own laws.

When Canadian soldiers observe a clear violation of fundamental human rights - which child rape certainly is - there needs to be a mechanism, a *formal* mechanism, to report it; it is the very least that can be done. Someone, someone like I used to be, a senior staff officer, has to read those reports and _advise_ the Afghans that they risk losing Canadian public support and aid money if they condone conduct Canadians find reprehensible. Then that senior staff officer has to tell the soldier who made the initial report that he, the staff _weenie_, has done what he could - inadequate though it may be. That's the _feedback_. We *should* do what we can - report, advise, feedback - even though we all know we *should* do more and want to do more.


----------



## Kat Stevens (22 Sep 2009)

Your wish is my command, this will get you started, from here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Rome


History
[edit] Early Republic

In the early Roman Republic, pederasty with freeborn boys was considered a degenerate Greek practice and as such was generally condemned. See Lex Scantinia.
[edit] Mid and late Republic

As Greek attitudes gradually became accepted in Rome during the late Republic and early Empire, however, a new form of same-sex relations emerged that was quite different from homosexuality in ancient Greece, but owed much to it. As men, particularly the pater familias, wielded complete authority in Roman society, the Roman experience of same-sex relations is often characterized by master/slave-style interactions. Slaves still were considered legitimate sexual partners, often if not always regardless of their wishes. In short, an adult Roman citizen male could acceptably penetrate (whether a male or a female) but not be penetrated - catamite was commonly used as a slander.
[edit] Empire

Pederasty largely lost its status as a ritual part of education — a process already begun by the increasingly sophisticated and cosmopolitan Greeks — and was instead seen as an activity primarily driven by one's sexual desires and competing with desire for women.[citation needed] The social acceptance of pederastic relations waxed and waned during the centuries. Conservative thinkers condemned it — along with other forms of indulgence. Tacitus attacks the Greek customs of "gymnasia et otia et turpes amores" (palaestrae, idleness, and shameful loves). [1]

Other writers spent no effort censuring pederasty per se, but praised or blamed its various aspects. Martial appears to have favored it, going as far as to essentialize not the sexual use of the catamite but his nature as a boy: upon being discovered by his wife "inside a boy" and offered the "same thing" by her, he retorts with a list of mythological personages who, despite being married, took young male lovers, and concludes by rejecting her offer since "a woman merely has two vaginas." [2] Among the Romans, pederasty reached its zenith during the time of hellenophile emperor Hadrian. Commodus had a number of male lovers. Elagabalus also had numerous male lovers and even married one of these in a public ceremony. Philip the Arabian was also known for his fondness for young men.
[edit] Discussion
Two men and a woman; Pompeii
[edit] Roles and preferences

While it was common in Greece and Rome that the younger partner was passive and the older active, there is (especially from the Roman period) evidence that older men preferred the passive role. Martial describes, for example, the case of an older man who played the passive role and let a younger slave occupy the active role.[3] Often it was also assumed that only the active participant gained pleasure from sexual intercourse. In general, the passive role was equated with the role of a woman and therefore felt to be rather low. Suetonius reported that the Emperor Nero, in taking the passive sexual role with the freedmen Doryphorus, imitated the screams and whimpering of a young woman.[4] Men taking the passive role were often liable to be accused to take too much care of their appearance to attract and please potential active partners. Such men were usually shown in a negative light, having the word kinaidos / cinaedus applied to them (which could also be applied to eunuchs).

There are also other examples. Again Suetonius reported that Emperor Galba felt drawn to strong and experienced men.[5] More than once it is reported that soldiers were sexually assaulted by their higher officers.[6]

In addition to repeatedly described anal intercourse, there is also plenty of evidence that oral sex was common. A graffiti from Pompeii is unambiguous: "Secundus is a cocksucker of rare ability." ("Secundus felator rarus")[7] In contrast to ancient Greece, a large penis was a major element in attractiveness. In Petronius is a description of how a man with such a large penis in a public bathroom looked up, excited.[8] Several emperors are reported in a negative light for surrounding themselves with men with large sexual organs. [9]
[edit] Subculture

There are at least some signs that something approaching a homosexual subculture was already starting to develop in ancient Rome, although it certainly does not compare with modern subcultures. In Rome around 200 BC there was already a road where male prostitutes preferred staying[10], specialising in either the passive or active role. Other men searched for sailors in the vicinity of districts close to the Tiber.[11] Public baths are also referred to as a place to find sexual partners. Juvenal states that such men scratched their heads with a finger to identify themselves.
[edit] Female homosexuality

By the first century AD, there is a larger scope of sources on the possibility of female homosexuality. Ovid denied the possibility that such a thing ever existed.[12] Later comments, however, are extremely hostile, and even go as far as the killing of a woman by her husband.[13] Martial himself, who shows himself to be amused by all other kinds of 'deviation', has a very negative opinion of lesbian love.[14] In Egypt, however, some love spells in Greek have been found, which were clearly written by a woman the purpose of winning the heart of another woman, and so female homosexuality clearly occurred elsewhere in the Empire outside of Rome itself, and was not always seen in such a negative light.[citation needed]
[edit] Moral opinions
Eros and Silenus

The earliest formal record of legislation is Lex Scantinia, enacted in either 225 or 149 BC which regulated sexual behavior, including pederasty, adultery and passivity, and legislated the death penalty for same-sex behavior among free-born men[15] and there is evidence of punishments in earlier times. Above all, pederasty was condemned in the Republican era and dismissed as a sign of an effeminate Greek lifestyle.

In the mid Republic homosexual acts were widely accepted, if the active partner was a Roman, and the passive partner a slave or non-Roman. Deviations from this pattern were morally condemned, but apparently had few legal consequences. Martial and Plautus describe a wide range of homosexual behaviors, in part to poke fun at them like other minor standard deviations, but without too much moralizing. On the other hand, there is also from the year 108 an indictment against C. Vibius Maximus, a Roman officer in Egypt who had a sexual relationship with a young nobleman.

Juvenal condemned many forms of male homosexuality, and especially laments Roman men of high birth who show a moral front but secretly took the passive role. He found men who openly played the passive role pitiful but at least honest, and praised true love found by a man for a boy.[16] Public speeches usually condemned all forms of homosexuality. When Julius Caesar was ambassador to Nicomedes IV of Bithynia, he was rumoured to have had a relationship with the king and played the passive role but, though this damaged his reputation, it apparently had no legal consequences.[17] The emperor Hadrian had a relationship with the younger Antinous, although this was also criticized but not significant enough to prevent him plunging the empire into mourning following Antinous drowned in 130.

Negative attitudes towards same-sex relations continued following the adoption of Christianity and in 390, laws were re-enacted, making such relations punishable by death.[18]

According to some[who?], the circumstances surrounding the massacre of Thessaloniki in 390 suggest that even in the late 4th century homosexuality was still accepted in large parts of the population, while officially prosecuted. When a popular charioteer was arrested for having sexually harassed an army-commander or servant of the emperor, the people of the town were calling for his release, though this is more likely due to his popularity then to the nature of the allegation.


----------



## armyvern (22 Sep 2009)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Canadians have been charged for breaking this international law too...
> ...



Sure they have Tess - I agree - but we also have segments of (and actually IN) the western hemisphere where these laws are often overlooked even given that "we" are (apparently) "so much more advanced in society than _they_". Think Utah. Underaged girls married off to mature males already having multiple wives (polygamy is illegal too here in the west) ... think "no sex" is happening there?? etc, seemingly "_we_" can '_overlook_' it happening in our very own backyards ...

I haven't seen the UN (or the military) moving into Utah lately to sort it out either ... nor have I seen them move into Yemen to effect an arrest _under international law_ of the mature male who married the young 12 year old who died during childbirth last week. Voice a political complaint they did, but that was/is the extent of it.

One can only _enforce_ when and where there exists _politcal will to enforce_ - despite the law.


----------



## the 48th regulator (22 Sep 2009)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Not to change Afghanistan's _culture_ which might include turning a blind eye to some pretty disgusting things.
> 
> We *are there* to provide just enough security so that we can leave the Afghans to make their own decisions - even decisions we will not like, in their own ways - even in ways we will not like, without too much intimidation.
> 
> ...



Agreed Edward.

Just a question, if we witness an Nato soldier, who is on operations with the Canadians, raping a Citizen what are the action that we can take?

Just wondering if Edward brought up a good point in stating that we do not have rules, in the action as soldiers, to report lawlessness that we witness overseas.

I may be chasing my tail, and not know what our boundaries are.  Is it a fact anyone can commit a crime, and Canadians do not have the mechanism in place to stop these actions.

dileas

tess


----------



## the 48th regulator (22 Sep 2009)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Sure they have Tess - I agree - but we also have segments of (and actually IN) the western hemisphere where these laws are often overlooked even given that "we" are (apparently) "so much more advanced in society than _they_". Think Utah. Underaged girls married off to mature males already having multiple wives (polygamy is illegal too here in the west) ... think "no sex" is happening there?? etc, seemingly "_we_" can '_overlook_' it happening in our very own backyards ...
> 
> I haven't seen the UN (or the military) moving into Utah lately to sort it out either ... nor have I seen them move into Yemen to effect an arrest _under international law_ of the mature male who married the young 12 year old who died during childbirth last week. Voice a political complaint they did, but that was/is the extent of it.
> 
> One can only _enforce_ when and where there exists _politcal will to enforce_ - despite the law.




I missed the news,

How many troops have we lost in Yemen, to protect the rights of this young gal?

dileas

tess


----------



## Fishbone Jones (22 Sep 2009)

It's absolutely amazing how quiet and unconcerned the Afghan government is on this whole affair, while our country and ourselves self flagellate into a frenzy of moral righteousness and indignation, isn't it  :


----------



## Edward Campbell (22 Sep 2009)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> ...
> Just a question, if we witness an Nato soldier, who is on operations with the Canadians, raping a Citizen what are the action that we can take?
> ...




On that specific question, and bearing in mind that I retired before many Army.ca members were born:

If I was still serving, and IF I was in command, then that NATO soldier would be arrested and placed in close custody. Witnesses would have been identified and warned that they would be required for a trial. (Note: I have seen what amounted to a Board of Inquiry regarding a very serious matter conducted by one field officer in two or three minutes. His report to his CO was sufficient to support legal and diplomatic action.)

As soon as possible I would consult the nearest available legal officer re: how we were going to bring that NATO soldier to trial.

In the interim - maximum concurrent activity - the victim would have been sent to a Canadian medical facility for medical care and whatever evidence might be legally required.


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## armyvern (22 Sep 2009)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> I missed the news,
> 
> How many troops have we lost in Yemen, to protect the rights of this young gal?
> 
> ...



Absolutely zero Tess; Nor in the US - right here in Western society's own backyard ...

Yet, I haven't seen the UN make a move to kick start the Afghan govnt into "forced compliance based upon international law" within Afghanistan _*either*_. Funny that. Then again - there'd have to be "political will" to do that ... and there certainly doesn't seem to be.

If they did so, I must have missed _that_. 

And so, the circle continues.


----------



## the 48th regulator (22 Sep 2009)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Absolutely zero Tess; Nor in the US - right here in Western society's own backyard ...
> 
> Yet, I haven't seen the UN make a move to kick start the Afghan govnt into "forced compliance based upon international law" within Afghanistan _*either*_. Funny that. Then again - there'd have to be "political will" to do that ... and there certainly doesn't seem to be.
> 
> ...



http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/04/02/law-afghanistan.html

This concerns their legality of raping wives, which is an "Accepted Custom" and entered into law.  We rebuked it, which was deemed lawful.

Child rape, at not time legally, is acceptable, yet we are debating whether we should report it here on these forums.



			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> It's absolutely amazing how quiet and unconcerned the Afghan government is on this whole affair, while our country and ourselves self flagellate into a frenzy of moral righteousness and indignation, isn't it  :



Which is why we have spent so many years, and lives of Canadians, to be there to change their ways.

Dunno, I may receive warnings from the forum for this.

I was  of a generation, known as the "Peacekeepers".  We lambaste anyone from the media and the public who coined us with this Name today.  We here complained, that as soldiers, we had our hands tied and were allowed to witness Genocide, be it rape, Torture, terrorist, or death, under the UN and Canadian flag.  We now are in a war, where are hands are not tied, however all that I witness here is the "Peacekeeping" mentality.

Trust me, had I had the privileged to serve my country in Afghanistan, and I had witnessed any form of attack on children, I would break all rules of engagement, and gone in there guns a blazing.  My Beautiful knife would have had a chance to sing her song as well.

This was the excuse against being Peace keepers to do the duty, and honour that we Canadian soldiers were trained to do, and all I see is people defending the "hand tied" ideology that destroyed a Generation of Canadian Troops.

The pederasts are lucky, that I retired.

dileas

tess


----------



## armyvern (22 Sep 2009)

Sigh, apparently, I have "no honour."  :

That means that I'm done with this thread - apparently it has become about those who realize that Rome wasn't built in a day and that political will plays a major part in "overturning and changing currently accetable Afghan cultural norms" being equated to "being without fortitude" or "acceptable moral compass".


----------



## the 48th regulator (22 Sep 2009)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Sigh, apparently, I have "no honour."  :



Madonna,

Much honour.

dileas

tess


----------



## armyvern (22 Sep 2009)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Madonna,
> 
> Much honour.
> 
> ...



I never claimed to be Madonna either.

I'm done here.


----------



## the 48th regulator (22 Sep 2009)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I never claimed to be Madonna either.
> 
> I'm done here.




no no no,

It was like me saying, _Madonna babe no worries, I give you the respects 'cause I know you._

Not in a patronizing manner it may come out...Damn the freaking Internet.....


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## Edward Campbell (22 Sep 2009)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> no no no,
> 
> It was like me saying, _Madonna babe no worries, I give you the respects 'cause I know you._
> 
> Not in a patronizing manner it may come out...Damn the freaking Internet.....




I thought you meant *ma doña* as in this referring to Ma Doña Maria Elena, etc.


----------



## George Wallace (23 Sep 2009)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Trust me, had I had the privileged to serve my country in Afghanistan, and I had witnessed any form of attack on children, I would break all rules of engagement, and gone in there guns a blazing.  My Beautiful knife would have had a chance to sing her song as well.



See Tess

You really don't understand the way things work on these Tours.  It is outside our jurisdiction to do what you say you would do.  It is, however, within our jurisdiction to throw you in chains and Charge you, put you through a trial and imprison you after you may have committed that act.  Again, as "quests" there we are subject to their Laws, as well as ours.  They are only subject to their own Laws.  Even if they don't enforce their Laws, we most certainly do enforce our Laws within our jurisdiction, under which you would fall.  

You should seriously try talking to a JAG  and have all the legalities of being a NATO soldier in a foreign land explained to you.


----------



## muskrat89 (23 Sep 2009)

I have read this thread and I think part of the difficulty with the debate is that we are mixing legality with morality. I think it confuses the issue to demonstrate that it is immoral by pointing to the illegality (did that make sense?)

Prostitution is illegal in many jurisdictions but soldiers are well-known (maybe falsely) for taking part. In that case, I think our moral acceptance trumps the technical legalities.

I agree that making soldiers in-theatre look on with impunity is terrible. There needs to be a mechanism to report. Reporting data helps quantify the problem, when trying to change the culture.


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## Kat Stevens (23 Sep 2009)

Not directly related, but a little example of how troops are hung out on the line when deployed.

I was on SFOR with 2VP in 97 as the AEV guru.  Part of our pre-deployment gobbledygook we had to sit through a long drawn out lecture from a JAG(off) as to the RoE for the tour, and just how hamstrung we were really going to be.  Question period followed, and I asked the following question; "Hypothetically, if I were to be tooling about the AOR in my AEV, and were to come across a spirited game of the Balkan national pastime (ethnic cleansing), and I were to place my vehicle between the two teams (Old Women and Kids vs Thugs... Yaaaay, Thugs!) harming one in the process, what am I looking at, discipine wise?"  
  His answer, with a horrified look on his face; " You would be charged with assault, attempted murder, and anything else we could possibly dream up to charge you with."

  I'm from Canada, I'm here to help, err, I mean, harrumph and look on disapprovingly.


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## tango22a (23 Sep 2009)

Good one Kat!

It AGAIN all boils down to "damned if I do...damned if I don't". If you do take offence to a yahoo raping a youngster and wax his a$$ then you will be in deeper s##t than he was!

tango22a


One should look at some of the comments made about the Afghanis by John Masters in "Bugles and a Tiger"... " a girl for procreation, a goat if necessary, and a boy for pleasure" 

t22a


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## Edward Campbell (23 Sep 2009)

muskrat89 said:
			
		

> I have read this thread and I think part of the difficulty with the debate is that we are mixing legality with morality. I think it confuses the issue to demonstrate that it is immoral by pointing to the illegality (*did that make sense?*)
> 
> Prostitution is illegal in many jurisdictions but soldiers are well-known (maybe falsely) for taking part. In that case, I think our moral acceptance trumps the technical legalities.
> 
> I agree that making soldiers in-theatre look on with impunity is terrible. There needs to be a mechanism to report. Reporting data helps quantify the problem, when trying to change the culture.




It makes perfect sense and I think you have found the key.

My _modest proposal_ is, essentially legalistic and aimed at Canadians because I do not think you can legislate or regulate morality.

Others seek a moral solution.


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## mariomike (23 Sep 2009)

tango22a said:
			
		

> One should look at some of the comments made about the Afghanis by John Masters in "Bugles and a Tiger"... " a girl for procreation, a goat if necessary, and a boy for pleasure"



"Iranian scientists have cloned a goat":
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30233385/


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## TCBF (23 Sep 2009)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I thought you meant *ma doña* as in this referring to Ma Doña Maria Elena, etc.



- Aha!  Someone else who knows good music when they hear it.  I have the 33 1/3 LP of "here We Go Again" by the Kingston Trio.  My mother bought the record in 1960.  That LP (and many others) found it's way onto cassette and powered many a winter's evening 7.7 mile run.
 ".. and La Dona Maria Elena Cantrelll."


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## HItorMiss (25 Sep 2009)

Travis Schouten IMO is a less the reputable source for any claims, it should be noted that Schouten was a replacement for wounded troops and only arrived in theater after the majority of hard combat had ceased and to the best of anyone in his Platoons knowledge he was not involved in any serious combat after he did arrive nor did anyone in his section or Pl witness any of the event he claims.

ANY and I mean ANY accusations or claims made by this individual should be taken with a large dose of salt! I was a member of his company and am friends with many of the person in his section and the Pl. My Info is first hand I am also in contact with members who were party to the investigation (IE gave testimony) and I will not go into what they had to say but suffice it to say they also told NIS that the claims were false.

I have more I would like to say but it would not fit within site guidelines and I will reserve them for if/when I get to meet this person again.


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## Sprinting Thistle (25 Sep 2009)

What I don't understand is that if the soldier witnessed this event as he claims, why did he not report it immediately?  To someone?  Morality issues aside, ROE aside, why didn't he tell his section 2IC?  Or a buddy or two in the section?  Pl 2IC?  CSM?  Any of the other tps who were there?  Also, there were enough people in Wilson at the time that had this event happened someone else would have known.


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## armyvern (26 Sep 2009)

Sprinting Thistle said:
			
		

> What I don't understand is that if the soldier witnessed this event as he claims, why did he not report it immediately?  To someone?  Morality issues aside, ROE aside, why didn't he tell his section 2IC?  Or a buddy or two in the section?  Pl 2IC?  CSM?  Any of the other tps who were there?  Also, there were enough people in Wilson at the time that had this event happened someone else would have known.



Do you know for a fact that he didn't? I don't.

Isn't that what BOIs are for? I think that's what the BOI into this matter is for anyway --- to determine what actually occured, was said, when it was said etc ...

Perhaps it's just me though, but I'm sure it'll all come out in the wash.


----------



## Sprinting Thistle (26 Sep 2009)

Actually I do.  I have had some exposure to the events.  I still don't understand why no one else has ever come forward.


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## armyvern (26 Sep 2009)

Sprinting Thistle said:
			
		

> Actually I do.  I have had some exposure to the events.  I still don't understand why no one else has ever come forward.



Thank you for the response - saw your original post before it was edited.

I won't be called before the BOI because I wasn't there. With that, I'll shhhhhhhh (as is supposed to be the way) and let the BOI run it's course.


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## Sprinting Thistle (26 Sep 2009)

No motive here.  Its just that we all know how fast rumor, gossip, fact, etc travel in a unit no matter where it is.  If something happens it almost impossible for many people not to know about it.  An example.  At CMTC one night two people decided to get intimate in a blue rocket.  The padre happened to be conducting a late night cummunion in the next rocket and heard the whole event.  He told one person the next day in an effort trying to understand the event and its location.  By the end of the next day 90% of the TF in Wainright new about the incident.  Some even knew the participants.  So, when the BOI concludes it will most certainly focus on how these events are reported and list recommendations for the future vice laying blame.  I would suggest though that had these events been reported at the time, something would have been done by those in the CoC at Wilson.


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## HItorMiss (26 Sep 2009)

The issue is the BOI did conclude after testimony from those intimately involved in the reported incident. The testimony given led the NIS too conclude that at no time did the events in questions actually take place or at least if they had then no member of the CF actually witnessed them or did a witness come forward and report the incident to his proper CoC.

Now however a member of the media has dug around and found or been told of members of the CF expressing concern that though this event maybe false that other events had occurred. The issue is rumor and fact are hard to distinguish for this. Sure everyone jokes about "Man Love Thursday" but this stems from the Afghan culture of same sex physical touching (Man and man holding hands etc etc). When troops see things like this being from a western culture that is less tolerant of such behaviour jokes and rumors fly. These jokes and rumors invariably make their way back to Canada where they move from that to supposed fact, from there senior members hear such things and express concern that they could be real and that the system is covering it up. Even after this BOI is concluded and it will find that none of this occurred or was reported to the proper chain I am 100% sure that another media person will again hear tell of it and it will flare again.


In this instance where there maybe smoke there is certainly no fire.


----------



## GAP (26 Sep 2009)

> Sure everyone jokes about "Man Love Thursday" but this stems from the Afghan culture of same sex physical touching (Man and man holding hands etc etc). When troops see things like this being from a western culture that is less tolerant of such behaviour jokes and rumors fly.



We had similar issues that may have cost lives because of homophobic attitudes (although I don't know for sure). In Vietnamese culture it is quite acceptable for men to walk along holding hands. Not so with the American forces who were mentoring/working with them. There were some really great ARVN's, but for the most part they were poorly led and paid.


----------



## mariomike (28 Sep 2009)

OTTAWA – Canadian soliders have been explicitly ordered to stop or report incidents of Afghan soldiers or interpreters raping young boys, the defence minister says.
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/702212


----------



## The Bread Guy (28 Sep 2009)

...in the attached article:


> "We require that any wrongdoing that a Canadian soldier would see in Afghanistan or anywhere would be no less than the expectation that we would have in Canada — to do the right thing, *to prevent, to pre-empt, to intervene.*"


especially when compared to the CDS's statement in a proposed letter to the editor:


> "While the responsibility for complying with their national and international legal obligations rests with the Afghans, I expect members of the Canadian Forces *to bring breaches of the law by Afghan security forces to the attention of the appropriate authorities*."



I'm *sickened* by the practice, but based on what smarter, more experienced folks than I have to say - including this quote from another forum elsewhere:


> “It’s one thing to insist on elimination of age old custom when the issue is overt and acknowledged (female status) and yet another when the issue is denied and hidden (pederasty). *Try pressuring one of your friends to stop doing something they hide but you know they do; then try to get a Police Officer to accost them about it.*”


I hope the Minister and Government are prepared to stand behind the troops *100%* should something nasty happen in the event of preventing, pre-empting, or intervening now that the Minister has said it out loud.


----------



## BlueJingo (29 Sep 2009)

mariomike said:
			
		

> OTTAWA – Canadian soliders have been explicitly ordered to stop or report incidents of Afghan soldiers or interpreters raping young boys, the defence minister says.
> http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/702212



Is the Defence Minister an Army.ca subscriber?


----------



## tango22a (30 Sep 2009)

Am presently rereading "Bugles and a Tiger" by John Masters.

He states:

"Lawrence noted the tendency of Arabs to homosexuality. It was the same among the Pathans "A woman for business, a boy for pleasure, a goat for choice" is an old Pathan proverb,"

Also:

From Zakmi Dil a famous Pathan song the words "There's a boy across the river with  a bottom like a peach, but, alas, I cannot swim."

.... Both quotes from John Masters "Bugles and a Tiger' dated 1956, but he was writing about occurrences during late 1930s.


This is what we have to deal with, and hasn't changed in hundreds of years.



tango22a


----------



## The Bread Guy (30 Sep 2009)

.... yesterday (29 Sept 09) via Hansard:


> Mr. Jack Harris (St. John's East, NDP):  Mr. Speaker, the government's handling of the allegations of sexual abuse of young boys by the Afghan national army on our Canadian Forces base is a national shame.  The narrow scope of the military's NIS report amounted to a whitewash and said that the chain of command did not know anything about it. However, we now know that this is not the case. Now there is corroboration that the military brass knew about this as far back as 2007.  Canadians deserve to know, how long has the minister had knowledge of this tolerance of sexual abuse in Afghanistan?
> 
> Hon. Peter MacKay (Minister of National Defence and Minister for the Atlantic Gateway, CPC):  Mr. Speaker, I am quite surprised by the tone and tenor of the hon. member's comments.  *The Canadian Forces take these allegations very seriously. They have been given clear direction to report, stop, prevent any abuse they would see.*  It is absolutely intolerable in this country as it would be in Afghanistan. To suggest that an independent arm's-length body like the National Investigation Service of the Canadian Forces would come up with a whitewash or is covering something up is absolutely disgusting as well.
> 
> ...


----------



## mariomike (30 Sep 2009)

tango22a said:
			
		

> Am presently rereading "Bugles and a Tiger" by John Masters.



I was reading a bit of this one online: "Sexual Encounters in the Middle East: The British, the French and the Arabs" by Derek Hopwood:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=AnTjEdFKTbMC&dq=sexual+encounter+in+the+middle+east&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=hqDDStfdKobDlAfDhajeBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=sexual%20encounter%20in%20the%20middle%20east&f=false
"..you can never understand a people well enough...until you are in bed with a woman. It is a time when people get over the masks they are wearing, and become normal human beings".


----------



## TCBF (4 Oct 2009)

Sprinting Thistle said:
			
		

> ... At CMTC one night two people decided to get intimate in a blue rocket.  The padre happened to be conducting a late night cummunion in the next rocket ...



- Methinks a blue rocket is a piss-poor choice of a venue for a communion - day or night.


----------



## PMedMoe (4 Oct 2009)

TCBF said:
			
		

> - Methinks a blue rocket is a piss-poor choice of a venue for a communion - day or night.



I think "communion" may have been used as a euphemism here.  

Me thinks a blue rocket would be a piss-poor choice for intimacy, too.   :-X


----------



## The Bread Guy (4 Oct 2009)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I think "communion" may have been used as a euphemism here.


Paint me naive, but is it at all possible, since a padre was involved, that it could have been a "late night CONFESSION"?  The original quote


> ... At CMTC one night two people decided to get intimate in a blue rocket.  The padre happened to be conducting a late night cummunion in the next rocket ...


suggests to me it wasn't the padre being physically intimate, but perhaps hearing more of the intimacy than he may have liked.


----------



## PMedMoe (4 Oct 2009)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Paint me naive, but is it at all possible, since a padre was involved, that it could have been a "late night CONFESSION"?  The original quotesuggests to me it wasn't the padre being physically intimate, but perhaps hearing more of the intimacy than he may have liked.



I didn't mean to imply that the Padre was being intimate, he may just have been answering a "call of nature", but you're right, could have been a confession, too.

At any rate, we digress......


----------



## The Bread Guy (29 Oct 2009)

Just spotted this at ceasefire.ca:


> It is shocking that the Canadian government has stood idly by for so long while these abuses continue. Ceasefire.ca is very concerned about this situation and believes that more public attention to this issue is necessary.



Two questions for ceasefire.ca & Co.:
1)  Do you have evidence that "these abuses continue"?
2)  Any solutions to offer up, apart from "more public attention"?

Now back to your regularly scheduled, more informed debate...


----------



## helpup (29 Oct 2009)

So is this the right forum to place that I am very concerned on Ceasefire.Ca's information and thier stance?

J/K


----------



## Greymatters (29 Oct 2009)

helpup said:
			
		

> So is this the right forum to place that I am very concerned on Ceasefire.Ca's information and thier stance?



They appear to be drawing their information from published sources and not making it up...


----------



## Sprinting Thistle (29 Oct 2009)

Perhaps ceasefire.ca could put together a team of advisors to work with the Afghan government in changing the cultural mindset.  Its easy to sit back and armchair general but in order to make informed decisions and provide intellectual commentary, they should experience first hand the environment.  Just a thought.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (29 Oct 2009)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> They appear to be drawing their information from published sources and not making it up...



Yup, and published sources 'always' get it right  ;D


----------



## The Bread Guy (30 Aug 2010)

Reviving necrothread with a just-out study on Pashtun sexuality (PDF attached), showing how ingrained it is (and hard to change).  More in the _San Francisco Chronicle_ here.

CAVEAT:  I respect the work being done by Human Terrain Teams in general, but if this is the same AnnaMaria Cardinalli who did the attached report (more here), I scratch my head re:  how some of these folks get hired for military work - happy to be educated on this.


----------



## tomahawk6 (30 Aug 2010)

If the Imam's condone the behavior then no westerner is going to make any headway at all. This behavior goes back to the Greeks and Alexander the Great. Its centuries old and is as ingrained as corruption is. Lets concentrate on teaching the ANA how to fight so that they can defeat the taliban on their own.


----------



## OldSolduer (31 Aug 2010)

A bit of a tangent here, but men who are incarcerated here in Canada often turn "institutionally gay". During my time in Corrections, more than one inmate was observed putting a crude form of make up on.


----------



## PanaEng (31 Aug 2010)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Reviving necrothread with a just-out study on Pashtun sexuality (PDF attached), showing how ingrained it is (and hard to change).  More in the _San Francisco Chronicle_ here.
> 
> CAVEAT:  I respect the work being done by Human Terrain Teams in general, but if this is the same AnnaMaria Cardinalli who did the attached report (more here), I scratch my head re:  how some of these folks get hired for military work - happy to be educated on this.



what? Are you trying to say that just because she sings and plays the guitar she is not qualified for the work she has done/is doing for DoD, FBI and others?
Did you read her bio - the part about her PhD? She seems to amply qualified. 
sure, other pers in theatre may have been able to do that job but may have been busy with other things like fighting, development, mentoring, etc. (speculation)

She probably got offered the job by recommendations from other agencies and not went looking for it. (speculation - maybe the job requisition required a PhD in Theology and human cultures with specific insights into Christian-Islam relations)

cheers,
Frank


----------



## The Bread Guy (31 Aug 2010)

PanaEng said:
			
		

> what? Are you trying to say that just because she sings and plays the guitar she is not qualified for the work she has done/is doing for DoD, FBI and others?
> Did you read her bio - the part about her PhD? She seems to amply qualified.


I should have been clearer.  I did read the bio, and the experience with LEA and others (who, if they hired her, obviously trust her & her work), but music + a PhD on "the early roots of today's Spanish flamenco as they are preserved in the liturgical tradition of the New Mexican Penitentes--a society whose worship presents a time-capsule of medieval Spanish spirituality" just struck me as an unusual career path towards work on a paper on Pashtun sexuality in AFG as part of a HTT, nothing more.  Hence the call for anyone with more direct experience to educate me.


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## TangoTwoBravo (31 Aug 2010)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> CAVEAT:  I respect the work being done by Human Terrain Teams in general, but if this is the same AnnaMaria Cardinalli who did the attached report (more here), I scratch my head re:  how some of these folks get hired for military work - happy to be educated on this.



Her credentials actually look very solid.   A Phd in Theology combined with field work in Iraq with the FBI before going to Afghanistan would seem to fit the bill.

That she studied flamenco just means that she conducted a disciplined study into a cultural phenomenon.  This would indicate to me that she possesses a method to look at the types of issues that the military tasked her to do.


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## PanaEng (31 Aug 2010)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> I should have been clearer.  I did read the bio, and the experience with LEA and others (who, if they hired her, obviously trust her & her work), but music + a PhD on "the early roots of today's Spanish flamenco as they are preserved in the liturgical tradition of the New Mexican Penitentes--a society whose worship presents a time-capsule of medieval Spanish spirituality" just struck me as an unusual career path towards work on a paper on Pashtun sexuality in AFG as part of a HTT, nothing more.  Hence the call for anyone with more direct experience to educate me.


yeah, I know... I just wanted to be on a high horse for a bit  ;D
frig, she got her PhD at 25 AND did all the music and singing stuff... (somehow I feel inadequate)
I seem to recall similar job postings a while ago for DFAIT or others, for a contract term, where the emphasis was on cultural awareness. (did a quick search but could not find it) 

anyway, seems like a well put together report. Lots of references to look further.

cheers,
Frank


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## sean m (7 Feb 2012)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/dancingboys/view/

Hello,

I was wondering if anyone here with experience in Afghanistan ever witnessed  or heard of the practice of bacha bazi. It is interesting how in such a patriarchal society, such a practice exists. It is interesting  yet very sad how wide spread and popular the practice is today in  Afghanistan.

Wikipedia has a history of the practice,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi


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## Fishbone Jones (7 Feb 2012)

sean m said:
			
		

> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/dancingboys/view/
> 
> Hello,
> 
> ...



With a little bit of searching, you'll find that this has already been covered quite extensively. http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/77328.0.html


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## The Bread Guy (12 Jul 2013)

Latest (via _Toronto Star_) from the former Afghan Ambassador to Canada on this one ....


> As Canada’s military continues its five-year investigation into charges that its officers told subordinates in Afghanistan to ignore cases of child abuse, Afghanistan’s former ambassador to Canada says both countries are guilty of ignoring the scandal.
> 
> Omar Samad, ambassador from 2004 to 2009, said he advised the Afghan foreign ministry in 2008 about media reports that some Canadian soldiers said they had been told not to get involved in cases of child sexual abuse involving Afghan soldiers, police and interpreters.
> 
> ...



Here's what Samad had to say, when he was in the Ambassador saddle, in 2008 to The Canadian Press ....


> .... Afghanistan's ambassador in Ottawa welcomed the investigation, but stressed the goverment of President Hamid Karzai was expecting to work alongside the Canadian military and that any criminal activity would be dealt with by his country's justice system.
> 
> "At this point, these are allegations and we all need to gather facts," said Omar Samad in an interview with The Canadian Press.
> 
> "I would like to see us get to the bottom of this. I would like to find out what may have happened and see how we can deal with such issues. We want to be able to deal with this using the full force of law." ....


.... and to another media outlet:


> Afghanistan is welcoming a Canadian military probe into whether soldiers were ordered to turn a blind eye to sexual abuse involving Afghan soldiers. But Afghanistan's ambassador to Ottawa stresses his government expects to work alongside the Canadian military.
> 
> Omar Samad says any criminal activity would be dealt with by Afghanistan's justice system. A board of inquiry has been ordered by the Canadian army's top commander, Lieutenant-General Andrew Leslie ....


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## GR66 (12 Jul 2013)

> “All sides are to blame, both the Afghan government and the western occupying forces,” Samad said in a phone interview from Washington. “Every effort has to be made to fight this problem through education, public awareness and through programs that can protect children, and enforcement, and the Afghan government has not done enough.”



Does anyone else find this a strange choice of words coming from a former Ambassador to one of those "occupying" nations?  Glad our sacrifices have been so appreciated by the representatives of the government we've been supporting.


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## The Bread Guy (12 Jul 2013)

GR66 said:
			
		

> Does anyone else find this a strange choice of words coming from a former Ambassador to one of those "occupying" nations?  Glad our sacrifices have been so appreciated by the representatives of the government we've been supporting.


I noticed that, too - how things change when you're not longer in a country's employ and a think tanker and consultant.  I guess he has _all_ the answers now.


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## The Bread Guy (12 Apr 2016)

Bumped with the latest, from the Info-machine:


> A Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) inquiry has found no evidence to support allegations that CAF members in Afghanistan were told by superiors to ignore incidents where Afghan soldiers and interpreters sexually assaulted young boys.
> 
> Indeed, “this accusation was vehemently denied by every CF member interviewed,” the Board of Inquiry (BOI) said in a report released today.
> 
> ...


A bit more in the Backgrounder, and the Executive Summary of the BOI - all public docs here attached in case the links don't work for you.


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## tomahawk6 (21 Jul 2016)

New spin on an old practice.The Taliban are using young boys for insider attacks.A sort of trojan horse.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/07/21/afghan-child-sex-tradition-spotlighted-by-green-beret-now-taliban-attack-ruse.html

Afghan child sex tradition spotlighted by Green Beret now Taliban attack ruse


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