# Forces struggling to recruit...



## tempest77

> Military struggling to attract personnel
> 
> Pauline Tam
> The Ottawa Citizen
> 
> 
> Sunday, June 04, 2006
> 
> 
> The Canadian Forces were to welcome 200 new recruits to their ranks Saturday, with a CF-18 fly-past, a 21-gun salute and a pomp-filled ceremony, presided over by the highest brass, at the Canadian War Museum. Behind the scenes, however, the military is struggling to attract personnel.
> 
> The trained effective strength of the Forces is roughly 52,000. Those in favour of a robust military would like to see that number grow by at least 10,000. But the latest assessment by Auditor General Sheila Fraser does not inspire confidence. It shows that the Forces are hard-pressed to meet the targeted expansion of 5,000 set previously by the Liberals, let alone the Harper government's benchmark of 13,000.
> 
> Despite their best efforts, the regular Forces have had a net gain of only 700 full-time members since 2002.
> 
> More to the point, the military has failed to recruit visible minorities and new Canadians. Those who identify themselves as visible minorities make up less than three per cent of the regular Forces and four per cent of the reserves. In total, there are fewer than 2,500 visible minorities in the military.
> 
> Calls for a more diverse military have come from the top. Earlier this year, Chief of Defence Staff Rick Hillier publicly mused about ways to encourage new Canadians to enlist. He floated the provocative idea of granting fast-tracked citizenship to landed immigrants who join the military.
> 
> Last week, Charles Belzile, a retired lieutenant-general, weighed in, suggesting that the military should relax its security-clearance requirements, which act as a barrier for immigrant recruits.
> 
> Belzile, who co-authored a major study on the role of military reserves in defence, told the National Press Club that immigrant recruits should be allowed to serve while security checks are being done. If the screening process flags any concerns, the military would have the power to reject a candidate. This form of conditional enlistment would streamline a recruitment process that, at the moment, takes up to 30 months.
> 
> Aside from the practical implications of these proposals, the need for armed forces that better reflect Canada is obvious.
> 
> The effectiveness of this country's role in the world rests on having a multicultural military. When Canadian soldiers go abroad, diversity is what they can count on to win hearts and minds. Speaking another language is an asset, but being from another culture means soldiers see solutions to problems from different perspectives.
> 
> The need is urgent given Canada's presence in Afghanistan. According to Belzile, however, the Forces' ability to recruit from Muslim communities is limited. "It's not because they're unsuitable but because it's not attractive to them," he said.
> 
> This is an understatement considering the way anti-terrorism measures have targeted these groups.
> 
> The military's image problem is similar to one faced by police forces. Both are state institutions that newcomers tend to view with suspicion. Indeed, many come from countries where the police and military are instruments of repression. Even in this country, race relations between police and visible minorities remain a hot-button issue.
> 
> Another problem is that cultural minorities tend to have misconceptions about the nature of Canada's military, which is less a fighting army than one designed for peacekeeping, disaster response, reconstruction, humanitarian missions and border patrol.
> 
> There's no doubt that the Forces need to be more proactive in dispelling these myths. To that end, Belzile's proposal merits consideration.
> 
> Hillier's idea, however, is more problematic. Rewarding immigrant soldiers with citizenship, reminiscent of the French Foreign Legion, sends the wrong message about what the Canadian Forces stand for. It devalues military service and suggests that, with a personnel shortage, immigrants must be induced to take jobs that Canadians don't want. This is not the way to develop either a loyal soldier or an engaged citizen.
> 
> But even peace-loving liberals need to recognize that a military that does not reflect this country risks being seen as illegitimate. It also perpetuates a divide that leaves visible minorities and new Canadians less likely to embrace the values of this country.
> 
> Pauline Tam is a Citizen writer. E-mail: ptam@thecitizen.canwest.com
> 
> © The Ottawa Citizen 2006


----------



## Sub_Guy

Do NOT relax security clearance requirements they are in place for a reason.

The public perception of the military has to change before anyone will want to join, most people think we are poorly paid, and for what I do making over 60K is quite nice with a high school diploma.   

We need better advertising campaigns

Signing bonuses for RESIGNING 

And CADPAT for NAVY personnel, that will attract gung ho kids who are afraid to join the army, but want to look cool!  

Building up the forces can't be done over night it will take some time before we will reach the target number, I know in my trade over the next few years we will be losing quite a few people, I am sure that is the same for all trades, give it time.


----------



## IrishCanuck

They have had no problem attracting me. 

Being totally honest, once I get off accutane , I'll be heading over to the Ottawa recruiting centre to explore how I can best serve the CF, and my own interests.

Being in university I've found is fun, but hey, I don't like the attitudes I see around me, the kind of lazy once I finish uni I'll have a nice cushey job, because I'm automatically entitled because I want to university. Please do not misunderstand me, there are lots of students there that have worked vary hard, and will make a definte positive impact on the Canadian society, but the numbers that are just coasting through it are much higher.

Having discussed my desire to serve in the CF with my parents this summer, they were a bit hesistant, as there is no previous military heritage in my family, but I told them it is not and will not be a rushed decision, but once I further educate myself I can educate them. They are supportive and proud that I'd choose to try and do something I want to do, attempt to be happy in a job rather than chase empty money.

I don't know how you can go about recruiting more effectively, aside from offeriing ridiculously high pay. Amongst my social circle from high school and university, there seems to be a perception that the CF is an insanely hard life to live, and so most people shy away from it for that reason. I told a lady friend of mine my intentions to apply, and she said " wow. well if you can handle it and thats what you want , then thats awesome! I could never do it tho!" She may not be able to be in the military, maybe I'm not cut out for it either, I'll only know once I try... but in my experience, the CF somehow seems to be losing people before they even start looking.

Honestly, its like young Canadians in particular have to have a change in what they feel are acceptable jobs, I still get the "you're in university, what do you need the Army/Navy/Air Force for??" like its some place for the inferior of society to go. And its that kind of thinking that really gets to me. People they are too good to serve their country. Maybe believing in the concept of a nation is naive, but being candid, it's something that everyone can believe in, regardless of religion or race, and I think thats worth serving and working for.

My $2.50.


----------



## luck881

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=7cc3e369-ab50-4c3d-8567-fabd1aa349bc&k=16656
Give this a read, the kicker is at the top of the second page.  It would appear that I, also have misconceptions about the purpose of our military.  Letters to Pauline Tam anyone?


----------



## Rory

Talking to the recruiters in Saskatoon, Sask. I got the impression we actually had a solid recruit # this year going to basic.


----------



## Kirkhill

Thanks for the heads up on that one Luck881.......

But where do you start to reply to that..... ??? :


----------



## Eland

IrishCanuck said:
			
		

> They have had no problem attracting me.





> I don't know how you can go about recruiting more effectively, aside from offeriing ridiculously high pay. Amongst my social circle from high school and university, there seems to be a perception that the CF is an insanely hard life to live, and so most people shy away from it for that reason. I told a lady friend of mine my intentions to apply, and she said " wow. well if you can handle it and thats what you want , then thats awesome! I could never do it tho!" She may not be able to be in the military, maybe I'm not cut out for it either, I'll only know once I try... but in my experience, the CF somehow seems to be losing people before they even start looking.



Having only had Reserve service under my belt, I can't comment on life in the Regular Force. My wife, however, spent 20-odd years in the Regular Force, and from what she has told me, military life can be demanding. That said, how demanding it is is a matter of perception, and somewhat dependent on how hard one is willing to work to manage those demands. What it all comes down to is best expressed in the old aphorism, "Train hard, fight easy." In other words, military life is demanding for a reason - to instill discipline that helps people function well in adverse circumstances, which happen a lot - in combat.



> Honestly, its like young Canadians in particular have to have a change in what they feel are acceptable jobs, I still get the "you're in university, what do you need the Army/Navy/Air Force for??" like its some place for the inferior of society to go. And its that kind of thinking that really gets to me. People they are too good to serve their country. Maybe believing in the concept of a nation is naive, but being candid, it's something that everyone can believe in, regardless of religion or race, and I think thats worth serving and working for.



The reasons why the military is having trouble attracting people are manifold - and too complex to be discussed here at length. However, there are prominent common denominators which underpin the nature of the problem:

1. Canadian youth are not as patriotic as the youth of the Fifties, Sixties (and the Seventies were, to a lesser extent). They live in a world relatively free of threats to their survival. That is, unlike the youth of the Fifties and Sixties, they don't have the bomb to worry about.  To such people, terrorism is somewhat of an abstraction, something which happens elsewhere. Moreover, Canadians in general have lived with and accepted as an article of faith the idea that Canada doesn't really need a military because it is the job of the United States to defend us. So why join?

2. Canadian youth are used to having lots of creature comforts. Many have seen that their parents, particularly if they were in the military, had comparatively few such comforts. Rightly or wrongly, they may perceive military life as poorly paid, with many hardships to be endured.

3. You raise an interesting point when you say "people see the military as a place where only the inferior used to go." At one time, that was somewhat true, in the sense that if you lacked marketable skills, lacked a proper education, or had problems with the law (or were heading for a life in trouble with the law), the military was where you could go to overcome some of those obstacles - to a point. It's not for nothing that people in my day used to joke about some recruits being "the Queen's hard bargain".

Finally, I personally believe that the few who genuinely do want a military life are scared off by the constant cut-backs, always having to make do with obsolete or substandard kit, and getting precious little support from either the government or the civilian populace. That is, who wants to lay their life on the line, if their country will not provide them wth proper kit? Or if that same government cannot decide what the military should be, or what it should do?


----------



## Walrus

I agree with loosening the security clearances but for all not just minorities. I started my application with references etc the first week in january in march they called me and said I needed to do fingerprints and in may they called me and said they lost my fingerprints and i need to do it again. It is now six months and i have done NO testing of anykind  medical written, physical etc. The last time I went to the CFRC I was told my security clearance could take upto another year or so. WTF?   how is someone suppose to say interested if it takes this long I need a solid career now not 2 years from now..

Sorry about complaining but I needed to vent.

Walrus


----------



## MarkOttawa

A post on this at "The Torch":

"Canadian Forces: More vis. min. Boy Scouts the answer"
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2006/06/canadian-forces-more-vis-min-boy.html

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## TCBF

Walrus said:
			
		

> I agree with loosening the security clearances but for all not just minorities. I started my application with references etc the first week in january in march they called me and said I needed to do fingerprints and in may they called me and said they lost my fingerprints and i need to do it again. It is now six months and i have done NO testing of anykind  medical written, physical etc. The last time I went to the CFRC I was told my security clearance could take upto another year or so. WTF?   how is someone suppose to say interested if it takes this long I need a solid career now not 2 years from now..
> 
> Sorry about complaining but I needed to vent.
> 
> Walrus



I am becoming VERY anoyed with how some  of the trades keep posting garbage to the Recruiting Centers, then wondering why they are dysfunctional.  My advice?  Back to Regimental Recruiting we go.


----------



## Infanteer

Wasn't it stated somewhere that the CF had met it's recruiting goals and that it was training/retention that were the biggest problems?


----------



## Kirkhill

Good'un Markottawa.


----------



## Adam

This article is bang on! General Belzile is right. The CF needs to relax it cumbersome Security Clearance requirements. Maybe with a little help "from the top" the CF will be able to recruit its desired personnel with real Canadian values.  The CFRC should concentrate more effort on the greater Toronto area. I hear there are many interested in military training.
It is very concerning to me that the current values of the CF may be viewed as illegitimate.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Relax security clearences.  Um hell no.  They are many reasons why recruiting is meessed up but security clearences aren't where I'd be cutting.


----------



## kincanucks

TCBF said:
			
		

> I am becoming VERY anoyed with how some  of the trades keep posting garbage to the Recruiting Centers, then wondering why they are dysfunctional.  My advice?  Back to Regimental Recruiting we go.



And WTF are you basing that comment on?  Just because someone comes on and posts that it is the CFRC/D fault their file is delayed you jump on their bandwagon?  Why don't you do a tour in recruitng and you can make it all rosy and better?


----------



## tamouh

I don't believe relaxing security clearance is an answer. I've joined the army as reserve prior to taking my citizenship , it took a bit long to complete the security clearance but i'd no problem joining.

I believe the problem with attracting new recruits is the recruiting process itself. From recent experience, the progress is extremely disappointing for people who have families to feed and jobs to take care of. Nobody in the recruiting office knows the right answer, there is no single standard answer. You just apply and whatever they give you is it! You don't even know what you're applying for, when you'll hear a decision, when is the next basic training.

The recruiting process seemed like a complete chaos. I know people didn't get accepted because they didn't have any volunteer experience 'or so they were told', others because they used drugs in the past and straightened afterward. 

The only organized part about the process was the testing. Other than that, it is next to impossible to know what and when something will happen!


----------



## big bad john

kincanucks said:
			
		

> And WTF are you basing that comment on?  Just because someone comes on and posts that it is the CFRC/D fault their file is delayed you jump on their bandwagon?  Why don't you do a tour in recruitng and you can make it all rosy and better?


+1


----------



## canadianblue

Whenever I've talked to people about joining the military, they say why do that when I can get a good paying job, education, apartment, and be treated like an adult at work. Personally, I can see their point. I used to work at Safeway, as well as doing some volunteer work with EPS, I loved it and had really good self confidence, as well as being able to do rewarding volunteer work. I decided to join the military to help make me a better citizen as well as have a rewarding job, but what has it been so far, just a 635$ pay cheque every two weeks. Personally I can't wait to get out and hopefully get on with a police service or get into university. I'm sure that other people enjoy being in the military, but myself, no thanks I'll make the best of my four years and get out.


----------



## Sub_Guy

It seems that the military is having problems recruiting minorities, I say screw that noise, they are having a problem recruiting period.  I don't think any solution is to focus on recruiting minorities, I am sure most of you have seen recruiting posters/trucks and there is a good mix on those, not just your average white male.

Why all of a sudden are we concerned about recruiting muslims?  Is this just so that when we are deployed to the middle east we seem friendlier or more approachable?  They funny thing is I have friends in recruiting and they both tell me that the numbers are good, I always thought the main problem was retention, but who am I, and I am most likely way off.

I think we should come up with a more streamlined recruitment process, it only took me just over 3 weeks from my initial visit to CFRC in gagetown to Basic (May 96).  Now I am hearing stories of guys who are waiting a year?  How is this possible?  Especially with so many trades in need of people (SIG OP). I guess I got lucky.

Hopefully we can retain some skills and attract more people to the military.  I grew up as a base brat, and I know we are very well paid compared to my fathers time.


635$ a pay cheque?  Are you living in single quarters and paying rations???   I am bringing in close to $1700 a pay cheque and that's without sea pay/subspa.........


----------



## canadianblue

Yes, if I could I would stop paying rations and quarters, and move out to my own place, besides I could probably make myself better and healthier food then whats at the mess. Personally, I know that some people love being in the military, but its not the life for myself, I regret not doing post secondary instead. If a person thinks they would enjoy the military life go into the reserves, don't go fulltime or else they might have deep regrets if they find out its not the life for them. As well while your in the training process you can't do any volunteer work, if I could I would apply to do volunteer work with a police service or even work part time if I could. My reccomendation to anybody joining up is to do it part time before going fulltime.


----------



## luck881

I'm surprised that in the midst of arguing over security clearances, noone has commented on this hidden gem...

"Another problem is that cultural minorities tend to have misconceptions about the nature of Canada's military, which is less a fighting army than one designed for peacekeeping, disaster response, reconstruction, humanitarian missions and border patrol."


----------



## 3rd Horseman

Generl Belzile is wrong on this one. Minorities will never be recruited in the numbers they want, minorities are fleeing countries due to armies, they will never join the system their parents don't want them to. The CF has to stop attempting to recruit specific people and just recruit people who want to join....the end result would be lots of white english speaking males....ah back to the old days. 

  And I think the posts above are correct I saw figures that suggest the recruits were 108% above of required this year.


----------



## Sub_Guy

Perhaps if you are going live in a country then you should educate yourself on that country, it they have no idea what our country is about then I wouldn't want them in my military.


----------



## 3rd Horseman

Sub-Guy.....I would not want them in my country let alone the militray. Maybe we should be sorting out the recruiting at the immigration department first.


----------



## tamouh

3rd Horseman : I agree. Nevertheless, I think having the minorities in the army is an important step to reflect on the country itself. Canada is a multi-cultural society and by having those different societies work together we achieve more of our goals as a strong and united nation. This will also go for whether to require French language in the army or not.

Minorities are also great assets in war zones. Communications, training, history and culture interaction is vital for the success of modern armies. I agree that numbers are impossible to reach their targets, however, minorities should be encouraged to participate within the rules of the Canadian Armed Forces.


----------



## Sub_Guy

Statscan reports that 1 in 8 (2001  13.4% of the population) is a visible minority, so with a force of 60,000 to represent the population of Canada the military would need 8040 visible minorities.  So we are a little off target, I figured there were more than 2500 minorities in the military as I have seen quite a few soldiers/sailors/zoomies who are visible minorities.. <--- I don't like grouping people into groups because I never think about race until I read these news articles telling me that I should be thinking about it.


----------



## FastEddy

Futuretrooper said:
			
		

> Yes, if I could I would stop paying rations and quarters, and move out to my own place, besides I could probably make myself better and healthier food then whats at the mess. Personally, I know that some people love being in the military, but its not the life for myself, I regret not doing post secondary instead. If a person thinks they would enjoy the military life go into the reserves, don't go fulltime or else they might have deep regrets if they find out its not the life for them. As well while your in the training process you can't do any volunteer work, if I could I would apply to do volunteer work with a police service or even work part time if I could. My reccomendation to anybody joining up is to do it part time before going fulltime.




Futuretrooper, please note that this inquiry is only to target possible flaws in the CF's Recruitment System and Methods.

Some will say, how can you attach any credence to this dis-grunted persons comments. Well I say, WHY is this person so dis-grunted ?.

So I would like to know why and what attracted you to Military Life. What you thought it would be like and what it didn't. What was the over powering thing that drew you to the CF's.

Cheers.


----------



## tingbudong

I'll admit I'm not prepared to join the regular force, largely because my personal and career goals are not compatible with a full-time military service.  However, joining a reserve unit is something I've been strongly considering over the past several months, largely becauase of my admiration of the CF, especially what they are doing in Afghanistan and also because of my life long interest in the military.  Unfortunately, the area of Canada I'm planning to return to (after being overseas for 3 years) to begin graduate studies does not currently have a reserve unit.  

I'm willing to join, but I geographically don't have the opportunity.


----------



## Nemo888

Security clearances are not optional. If your checkered past keeps you out tough luck. Anyone want to tell horror stories about dishonourable soldiers? It doesn't take longer than 6 months if you are a straight arrow. (and haven't been out of country or are the son of a mobster)


----------



## LIKELY

I think the main problems are retention and redtape.
 For retention its easy...signing bonus for each new engagement...and a nice one for your IE.

Recruiting...I don't think its the CFRC thats holding things up, they are just the delivery mechanism...the most delay seems to me in the medical departments. Medicals...letters to and from Borden...Letters back...wait for another doctor to see you (hard to get appointments)...letters bac to Det....they send it to Borden...then God forbid they need more info....it starts again.  When I joined in the80's, The forces had a doctor that they paid per medical...you passed/ yer in.  Way too much red tape now.

Security checks are very nescesary...more now than ever.


----------



## Bograt

Silly question, but what do you believe is an acceptable waiting period for trades like Infantry, or Pilot. A week, a month, several months? Considering the steps required (Application, LoR, CFAT, Interviews, ERC, Physical, Medical, Boards, Offers, Basic) and the number that recruiting is processing (20K a year?) where do you think the time can be made up? From what I have seen with my time in a small but very busy Det, the turn around is reasonable.

The challege of course is this is a volunteer military in a Country where the economy is pretty strong. The issue is not how many people we are getting in the door, but rather how many people are leaving.


----------



## FastEddy

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> Security clearances are not optional. If your checkered past keeps you out tough luck. Anyone want to tell horror stories about dishonourable soldiers? It doesn't take longer than 6 months if you are a straight arrow. (and haven't been out of country or are the son of a mobster)




So what do you consider a Checker Board Past, and why should your attendance for the last 4 years at Oxford (U.K) or Harvard (U.S) be a detriment in your processing.

Maybe a youth with a colored past but wants to turn his life around (the Services would be just the place) should be exclued from the roster.

It appears you favour "Guilt by Association", I know many a fine Police Officer who has come from a Family , that some might think less than desirable, through no fault of theirs. Then why don't we take it a step further, lets disqualify any one who knows someone who has used a illegal substance and not reported them to the authorities.

Also, if your so vocal about CF's recruitment standards, you can do us the courtesy of where its coming from and fill in you profile.


----------



## Rory

Back in the 80's doing the medical then your in thing didn't work. It lets in too many problem soldiers. At least with the whole recruiting system now, at least when I went in March, it is more in-depth. The interview was a good highlight as it helps them understand what you want from the forces and a partial picture of your mentality. 

Just up for some speculation if we had the system we have now in the 80's we might (speculation) still have an Airborne Regiment.


----------



## 3rd Horseman

Rory,
   I think your comment on the AB fails the logic test, The AB was going the way of the DoDo bird anyway. The isolated problem in Somolia was just good timing to put an end to it.


----------



## aluc

Training, lack of instructors, outdated equipment.......wishy washy feel good recruitment ads. Well, if you want potential recruits to even notice the CAF, the MND has got to beef up the TV ads. You 're not going to attract the attention of the younger guys with images of humanitarian aid ops. IMO they want to see steal and fire, APCs , rappelling out of Griffins etc, boots on the ground sort of thing, honour and glory for you and your country. They want to be made to feel they are becoming part of something bigger, something that should be clearly defined in the ads. Simply highlighting the fact that the CAF pays for school, and "you can make a difference", blah, blah ,blah isn't "ballsy" enough for the young males.(ie: USMC ads) You have to target the younger males, no offense intended , but I think they are the bread and butter of the Forces, and will always be so. And it's not because the young guys are better suited for CAF lifestyle than others, it's simply because they are more inclined to join and live a military lifestyle. We have to go after what we know we can recruit also, not just focus on  minorities.


----------



## Bograt

Disagree.

There are a variety of skill sets that the CF is trying to acquire, including doctors, computer scientists, aerospace engineers, aircraft maintainers, nurses, logistics personnel etc. These are the types of trades we are lacking. We consistently meet recruitment goals for infantry and other trades that are interesting to "younger males". 

One of the misconceptions the public has concerning the CF is that all jobs are traditional "crunchie" jobs (no disrespect implied). While we all are soldiers, not all of us are infanteers, of artillerymen.


----------



## aluc

Good point. I was thinking on a strictly combat arms perspective. However, from reading other posts in different forums on this topic of recruitment, I'm not alone in thinking we need more commercials and more awareness. Maybe various separate ads in regards to the various trades and employment opportunities available from the CF, not just one or two ads encompassing the whole CF.  Also, I know this may be knit picking , but a lot of the regimental websites I looked at when I was joining weren't kept up that well. Outdated pictures and info, etc. they look a little shabby, IMO.


----------



## LIKELY

I think we are meeting our recruiting numbers....what has to be done is find a way to expedite the enrollment process and keep the young'uns interested once they come in the door of CFRCs.
Then we have to train them up and find a way to keep them. I got pissed off in the mid 90's and left...albeit they were extremely bad times for the CF...there didn't look to be much future in it...now I am getting back in, hindsight being 20/20.

and am part of the recruiting malestrom...watch and shoot.


----------



## Enzo

Medical issues  : You can waste a lot of time sorting out that nonsense these days.

Whatever happened to that 21st century, no paper, fast communications thing? I know, signatures on everything, got it.  ;D


----------



## mdh

> There are a variety of skill sets that the CF is trying to acquire, including doctors, computer scientists, aerospace engineers, aircraft maintainers, nurses, logistics personnel etc. These are the types of trades we are lacking.



Exactly,

It's the technical and skilled trades that are in short supply; somehow we need to make a convincing pitch to young graduates in these areas that the CF offers an exciting career alternative.  There is no question that the Forces will face a war for talent as the demographic decline hits home. 

Most of the individual skill sets noted by Bograt above can be easily absorbed by the private sector which usually offers more money, a more stable family life and, not to be underestimated, the chance for the spouse to work at his or her chosen career (a tougher call in many of our rather isolated bases.) 

It's also worthy to note that most ambitious kids who come from minority groups will tend to gravitate toward skilled trades and the professions. The question is can the CF realistically compete for this talent? 

cheers, mdh


----------



## elminister

why then can't the CF offer a way for those who are in the CF already a chance to go be officer, by getting a university degree. Like a Sgt, MCpl. They are in for a long time they ain't going anywhere send them to school so we can get the doctors or nurses. I think


----------



## canadianblue

> It's the technical and skilled trades that are in short supply; somehow we need to make a convincing pitch to young graduates in these areas that the CF offers an exciting career alternative.



Here's the problem though, in the past five months I have done nothing very exciting. Would I go to the shooting range and practice my marksmanship if I could, of course, but the CF doesn't give me that option unless its on the agenda. As well for the past few months it seems like all the CF is learning your trade like at a school as well as doing janitorial work part time. To be honest my life was more exciting before I joined the military. Maybe if the military could offer some more excitement and maybe some more freedom then it would be better, but then again I'm still only a no hook private.


----------



## Canadian Psyco

I don't really think its the ads, or the method of recruitment, I think its the armys image. every single kid I talk to at school says that the military wouldn't be a good job, no matter how kool the fringe benifits are(aka, blowing sh!t up) they think that the cdn military has stuff from WW2, and has zero good equitment. to get more people to join, we need to start updateing all our equitment(starting with that tac-vest) and getting modern high-quality stuff. that would change the image to that as opposed to being an outdated and useless group of psychos, to a modern fighting force offering secure, and self fullfilling carrers for people.


----------



## kincanucks

elminister said:
			
		

> why then can't the CF offer a way for those who are in the CF already a chance to go be officer, by getting a university degree. Like a Sgt, MCpl. They are in for a long time they ain't going anywhere send them to school so we can get the doctors or nurses. I think



It is called University Training Plan for NCMs (UTPNCM) and Military Medical Training Plan (MMTP).

HH and DA


----------



## Steve 1 RNFLDR

Futuretrooper,
Not so long ago, I found myself in a similar dilemma, being a sig op at PRETC (SuperPAT, PAT battalion, etc).  I'm assuming that you're still in Borden.  I was stuck there back in 2003-2004.  I found it absolutely maddening sitting around and doing nothing, waiting for a course.  Find a way to keep occupied.  Write memoranda requesting OJT/EWAT.  
Believe it or not, things do get better.  The trade course in Kingston is a good time, and you've got a decent change of getting a tour in sometime before your first contract is up, what with the current operational tempo.  Going overseas makes it all worth while.  Gives a fellow a terriffic sense of purpose, even if he's stuck on camp most of the time.
I guess I'm in no position to lecture you, given that I decided to go reserve infantry at the end of my first contract, but keep an open mind.  You'll find that you can get a lot out of the sig op trade if you're willing to put enough into it. 
Cheers

Steve
1 RNFLDR
Former sig op with 2CMBG HQ & Sig Sqn


----------



## Navy_Blue

How can the military offer you more excitement when your barely trained??  My first six months was great, a paid trip to Victoria I was a pat for a month and then on my QL3.  Wasn't in Halifax a three months and I hitched a ride to the middle east on the Montreal.  Back another 3 months and I was on my QL4, than a trip north, a NATO and back at school for my QL5.  I got my boarding party course and when I go back to a ship I expect a dive course shortly after.  My first four years has been a none stop whirl wind tour.  You get as much excitement as you can beg borrow and steal your way into.  Its all in what trade you get con'd into my friend.  We're not in the middle of a real big conflict, really you should be happy your getting paid decent and really don't have to work all that hard for your pay 95% of the time.  I worked on civi street for two years and as an ET I have never made easier money than I do when my ship is tied up or I'm on course.

I think if you want trades people we should be calling the schools and courting them like industry does.  Show them what they can be where they can go and pay there schooling if we don't need to train them.  It then comes down to a medical and backround check.  No need for testing if they have a diploma for Electronics.  Basic training and off to a unit.  I don't like the Idea of giving them there Cpl's or LS but max out Pte pay for them and advance them if they get there training done quickly.

It may not be bad to confidentially offer/force trades training to young offenders and offer/enforce a short contract.  In some cases it might give a kid a chance he may otherwise never consider or even get.  A segregated BMQ with extra time with social workers and then extra time with the course staff getting there butts kicked.   2 years in jail vs 5 yrs in the CF.  Its been done in the past with the CF and I have personally worked with some of the people who were forced into a career in the forces (WO's and CWO's now).

Personally I think the country as a whole would see untold benefits by conscripting.  We could pick and choose all our people and the ones who have no intrest in the CF will leave with some good values and a different look at how the world works.

Just my thoughts

Cheers


----------



## Nemo888

FastEddy said:
			
		

> So what do you consider a Checker Board Past, and why should your attendance for the last 4 years at Oxford (U.K) or Harvard (U.S) be a detriment in your processing.
> 
> Maybe a youth with a colored past but wants to turn his life around (the Services would be just the place) should be exclued from the roster.
> 
> It appears you favour "Guilt by Association", I know many a fine Police Officer who has come from a Family , that some might think less than desirable, through no fault of theirs. Then why don't we take it a step further, lets disqualify any one who knows someone who has used a illegal substance and not reported them to the authorities.
> 
> Also, if your so vocal about CF's recruitment standards, you can do us the courtesy of where its coming from and fill in you profile.



I have one of those checkered pasts. Wrote that I smoked pot on my application forms, signed a paper admitting to that fact in front of an officer. They asked me a few questions, problem solved. The standards for Enhanced are extremely low, if you can't get that,... But yes I see the other side too. I know some old timers from the days when it was prison or the Army and they did turn their life around. But for every one of those you get a few like those reserves who beat that homeless guy to death in front of the Armoury in Toronto.


----------



## TCBF

So, howcome THEIR regiment doesn't get disbanded?


----------



## canadianblue

I'm in Kingston right now, but in all honesty for the most part it still is boring, its a good group for the most part that I am with. But in the end I'd still prefer a civie job, and perhaps doing some time in the reserves as I would have gotten the same oppurtunities for deployment, as well while the military would have been a part of my life, its not my whole life. If you want to get more people into the military allow them the chance to live more independantly once their done their Basic, and SQ, if a person wants to live off base and pay for their food, why not as long as they are still operating at a good measure as well as meeting all timings. Also recruits while in training should still have the same discipline, [defaulters], and if they screw up they must realize the consequences. As well I still don't see the need for open locker inspections at this stage, personally cleanliness inspections should be good enough as long as a recruit is able to keep up with the maintenance of kit as well as not damage a room, etc. 

Thats my own personal opinion of it though.


----------



## TCBF

On the old TQ 6A Tank Commander's Course - a 13 week course that qualified 011 Crewmen to Sgt - the Drill/Mil Law phase had daily room inspections: Open lockers, plate/cup/kfs/mask/webbing/Rifles or SMGs stripped on the beds, drawers stepped, socks rolled, etc.  Not to mention floors highly waxed.  This was for course candidates who were MCpls.


----------



## big bad john

Suck it up!  This is not a job.  You're not 9 to 5ing it in the civie world.  It is part of the sacrifice that you make to be a soldier.  I had to "Live In" during a Staff Officers course, all of us were Captains no less.  You get your orders and you deal with it.  Things will change when you get to a unit, you are still in training.  All in all it is what YOU make of it, not what it makes of you!


----------



## canadianblue

Well, I'm just making the best of my time in, as well as looking at what post secondary I can do on my own time if I get sent to Petawawa or Edmonton. As for being a soldier, I loved my time while I was in the field in Basic as well as for the short SQ I did in Gagetown but the thing is though its not much part of the job and I haven't done anything close to learning about that for quite a few months, more or less I find the negatives outweigh the positives of military life. As for getting the military to pay for college, not likely, from what I've been told the only way to get the military to give any funding for schooling is if it is related to your trade, if not too bad you have to pay on your own dime.


----------



## Enzo

FutureTroop...

Honestly, I don't mean to offend; but shut up and suck it up! Buddy, I'd practically give a nut to be where you are currently. Do I emphathize with your routine of Borden, sure. Been there, as have many. Hell, I was stuck in Meaford bored out of my mind, Borden seemed like Vegas. But you need to see that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. You're stuck on base collecting pay and finding yourself with too much time to think and access to the net, c'mon. Try being one of us who are stuck awaiting for the bureaucracy to allow them their chance to return to the fun. Hell, justice has nothing to do with it, such is life. I have to redo SQ (as it's now called) and instead of bleating about, "how I have to take the c**k again" my mindset is more along the lines of, "cool, new tactics and a C7A2 to play with".

You should spend more time reading buds. Books are cheap, readily available and only require light to operate. The point there is that you have an imagination; instead of wishing for what may one day be, accept that you made a committment (like a marriage) and for better or for worse, you've have an obligation to fulfill. If you need to continue to vent, then focus on what's really pissing you off and maybe someone can figure a way to sort you out.

P.S.

If you're pissy and it shows, might explain why it feels as if you're in the doghouse.


----------



## big bad john

Now that's two of us in two different threads that have told you essentially the same thing.  Please get the message and get with the program lad.  SUCK IT UP and grow a pair.   Thank you rant over.  You never have a Cpl or a Sgt when you need one.  Someone counsel this lad or have I just.


----------



## S McKee

You just did, and yes how much excitement do you expect to get as an untrained Pte. Give it a few years get your training and learn about the military first, what did you expect man? They were going to sign you up, hand you a gun, a box of grenades... have at 'er?  A lot of this has to do with the attitude of the "I want/need it now/instant gratification generation." As you were.....


----------



## FastEddy

Futuretrooper said:
			
		

> I'm in Kingston right now, but in all honesty for the most part it still is boring, its a good group for the most part that I am with. But in the end I'd still prefer a civie job, and perhaps doing some time in the reserves as I would have gotten the same oppurtunities for deployment, as well while the military would have been a part of my life, its not my whole life. If you want to get more people into the military allow them the chance to live more independantly once their done their Basic, and SQ, if a person wants to live off base and pay for their food, why not as long as they are still operating at a good measure as well as meeting all timings. Also recruits while in training should still have the same discipline, [defaulters], and if they screw up they must realize the consequences. As well I still don't see the need for open locker inspections at this stage, personally cleanliness inspections should be good enough as long as a recruit is able to keep up with the maintenance of kit as well as not damage a room, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> That's my own personal opinion of it though.




Well Futuretrooper, at least your honest about your disenchantment with the Military. You emphasize on your boredom. IMO you then have far to much time on your hands and not knowing the Syllabus of your Training or Trade, I can't comment on why that is so. As far as open locker inspections, you have no idea what Chicken Sh?t is (but I regress).

Individuality, forget that term, its not applicable to you. You're in the Army and that encompasses all the Good, Bad, Boring and Terrifying Days that might lay ahead of you.

You still haven't mentioned what prompted you to seek a Military Career or what you expected. Or what is so different.

Life is considerate, it usually offers you several choices in a matter, in your case its stay in the Army and enjoy what ever it brings, or get out at the end of your time.

But I can assure you Civi Street in not all its cracked up to be. I can attest to that, I'd give anything to go back and undue a BIG mistake, getting out !.

Cheers.


----------



## FastEddy

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> I have one of those checkered pasts. Wrote that I smoked pot on my application forms, signed a paper admitting to that fact in front of an officer. They asked me a few questions, problem solved. The standards for Enhanced are extremely low, if you can't get that,... But yes I see the other side too. I know some old timers from the days when it was prison or the Army and they did turn their life around. But for every one of those you get a few like those reserves who beat that homeless guy to death in front of the Armoury in Toronto.




That seems a bit of a weak reason to sort and categorize a standard for rejection. By your reckoning I presume you have statistics to that effect.

Are you aware of those Idiots social background. They could be very well from a good environment.

Just like the young man who drag races his BMW and crashes killing Innocent Vitim's. Or the Drunken College Students driving home from the Frat House who hit and run, killing a Cyclist.


----------



## canadianblue

> You never have a Cpl or a Sgt when you need one.  Someone counsel this lad or have I just.



No thanks, the last ones that did counselled me for following another NCO's orders, and then proceeded to give me the appropriate punishment for themselves screwing up. Usually I try to stay clear of trouble, and just finish my contract and get out. As well, I'm just going to make the best of the situation and get some part time studies in as well as hopefully volunteer work with a police service to make the next few years worthwhile.


----------



## George Wallace

Just a quick note to tempest77 

You may want to try harder with your spelling........."Forces stuggling to recruit..." has garnered a lot of attention so far on what I hoped you meant......"Struggling".  I fixed it for you.  All posts, except quotes, should have the correct spelling now.....  ;D



....Or is stuggling a new term for something completely different, and we all missed it?


----------



## wookie11

What about the drug policies?
I knew a guy who could not join when he told the interviewer that he has done 'magic mushrooms' in the past during the interview.
Citing the reasons of flashback, his file was closed, and he was told not to apply again.
I knew the guy, all around a good guy with decent life. 
I don't know if shrooms would give you flashbacks or not, but it was done in the past, and should not prevent recruits from joining.
My thoughts, CF lost a good recruit because of this policy.


----------



## TCBF

Certainly a daring one:

 "he told the interviewer that he has done 'magic mushrooms' in the past during the interview"

Doing 'shrooms during an interview?  Far out, man.  The kid has more balls than a ten pound bag of number nine shot.

 ;D

Tom


----------



## George Wallace

Lingling

Would you feel safe driving with this guy, knowing he could have a flashback at any time?  How about if he had a loaded gun in his hands?  Perhaps he could be flying a plane, when it happens?  What do you think now?


----------



## TCBF

Or even worse: An RMS Clerk screwing up your pay...


----------



## wookie11

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Lingling
> 
> Would you feel safe driving with this guy, knowing he could have a flashback at any time?  How about if he had a loaded gun in his hands?  Perhaps he could be flying a plane, when it happens?  What do you think now?


Hey, totally agree with you. I just feel sorry for the guy though


----------



## tempest77

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Just a quick note to tempest77
> 
> You may want to try harder with your spelling........."Forces stuggling to recruit..." has garnered a lot of attention so far on what I hoped you meant......"Struggling".  I fixed it for you.  All posts, except quotes, should have the correct spelling now.....  ;D
> 
> 
> 
> ....Or is stuggling a new term for something completely different, and we all missed it?




My bad!   Thanks for correcting it!


----------



## Haggis

George Wallace said:
			
		

> ....Or is stuggling a new term for something completely different, and we all missed it?



I got stuggled once.  Couldn't sit for a week!

(Sorry, George.... couldn't resist.)


----------



## jerrythunder

> http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=7cc3e369-ab50-4c3d-8567-fabd1aa349bc&k=16656
> Give this a read, the kicker is at the top of the second page.  It would appear that I, also have misconceptions about the purpose of our military.  Letters to Pauline Tam anyone?



what?! no way should the security checks ever be laxed!! theyre lax enough! police and RCMP security checks are way more hard and u dont even get to carry an automatic rifle around or get even a quarter of the kit!!!


----------



## jerrythunder

sorry, that post is mean to quote the person who wrote the article in the link not the person who posted it on this website my bad :


----------



## old medic

Fixed


----------



## pbi

I posted this comment elsewhere, but it might be worth repeating. We aren't really "struggling to recruit". We are "struggling to train". According to the Commander of the CFRG, who spoke here at the College last week, there is very little problem recruiting people. The Army, in particular, is generally doing well. (The Navy, unfortunately, is not.)The problem is recruit and MOC training for these folks once they get in. The Army is stepping up to the plate by running decentralized training, but not all MOCs belong to the Army, and some lack a critical mass of NCOs to act as instructors.

Cheers


----------



## aluc

By Capt Holly - Anne Brown, CF
Recruiting Group Public Affairs Officer
Excerpts from the CF  Personnel Newsletter




> "CFRG has achieved a level of success this  past year that has exceeded all expectations. Due to the colossal efforts of personnel at all levels, and a renewed CF recruiting culture that maintains 'everyone in uniform is a recruiter', the Reg Force target of slightly more than 5500 was exceeded by 6 %, bringing the total number of Reg Force enrollees to more than 5800."





> "While Recruiting Group had met  the previous several years' recruitment goals with remarkable success, last year the CF embarked on a level of expansion not seen since the Korean War. The target set for 2005 - 2006 - more than 550 new full-time members - was an ambitious 25% increase over the previous year."


----------



## TCBF

"While Recruiting Group had met  the previous several years' recruitment goals with remarkable success, last year the CF embarked on a level of expansion not seen since the Korean War. The target set for 2005 - 2006 - more than 550 new full-time members - was an ambitious 25% increase over the previous year."

- That's the trouble with twenty-year opd journalists - they have no idea what we did twenty-three years ago.  On the YTEP Program, we hired 5,000 EXTRA recruits.  CFRS Cornwallis and ERFC St-Jean took a bunch, but the regiments and battallions in each brigade ran courses as well.  

- Take a good look around:  a lot of Snr NCOs, WOs and Officers started out on YTEP.

"Why tepp, for a full year, till they're full grown!" - sung to the tune of the Puppy Chow song.


----------



## LIKELY

So we need to train more...I've been out of it for a bit and correct me if I'm wrong and I KNOW someone will....
We have 2 places teaching basic, St Jean and a place in BC I think. we are starting to teach basic on Ontario soon I think.
So we have 3 places that cant put out the same ammount of troops as Good Ole Cornwallis did. With 3 depots turning out troops we should go back to regimentally taught battleschools and TQ3/Sq or whatever there should be no problems training these troops.

Lack of instructors perhaps....they need more incentives to stay in ...back to signing bonuses/education.

I don't know


----------



## Springroll

LIKELY said:
			
		

> So we need to train more...



If I recall correctly, it's after basic where they are running into the issues. 
You have all these basic trained recruits and nowhere to put them after, so they are stuck on PAT waiting for an SQ/3's course to open up. Then we get a backlog, and the vicious circle continues.


----------



## pbi

Springroll said:
			
		

> If I recall correctly, it's after basic where they are running into the issues.
> You have all these basic trained recruits and nowhere to put them after, so they are stuck on PAT waiting for an SQ/3's course to open up. Then we get a backlog, and the vicious circle continues.



As I understand it, this is the main problem, as opposed to simple recruit training, which (in theory) can be done by instructors of any MOC.

Cheers


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

So if the problem is not enough instructors, maybe that is why LFAA is now running YRAP in Aldershot.  PLQ going thru all the time, Reg and Res down there.  Is this happening anywhere's else?

For those who never heard of YRAP, its Year Round ARTS Program, there is a cadre of instructors there that can teach, IIRC, BMQ/SQ, PLQ and some of the other DP1/DP2 stuff.


----------



## TCBF

Another free dental program for Maritimers who can't afford to get their teeth fixed!

 ;D


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

TCBF said:
			
		

> Another free dental program for Maritimers who can't afford to get their teeth fixed!
> 
> ;D



We get free dental?  Damn!   ;D

Maybe I can stop using white-out on my teeth now!


----------



## C/10

Quagmire said:
			
		

> Relax security clearences.  Um hell no.  They are many reasons why recruiting is meessed up but security clearences aren't where I'd be cutting.



Definatley

maybe they should pump more money into getting the security clearences done quicker and more efficently? 
waiting 2 plus years to get in is unacceptable.


----------



## Remius

Security clearances are conducted in conjunction with other agencies.  So we are bound by their red tape.  Also CF recruiting isn't high on the priority list when these agencies are trying to get soldiers cleared for deployments, foreign service members cleared for foreign postings, essential workers cleared for their line of work etc etc.

Also 2 years for a pre-sec is the exception more than it is the norm.

It's sad to say but we need to get smarter about it.  Target countries of concern, facilitate people from traditional allied countries.


----------



## kincanucks

There have been some changes to reduce the number of Pre-Secs currently being processed.  It may be, I repeat may be, possible for waivers to be given for people coming from one of the original NATO countries (those from the USA still require a FBI check), people coming to Canada at <16 years old and don't have any immediate relatives out of country, people who already hold a a Canadian security clearance from another federal department, and any cases that the CO/Det Comd is worthy of risk management (people who have done missionary work, etc.).  All on-going pre-secs will be reviewed to determine if they can be waived.  Note that this waiver policy will be applied on a case by case basis.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

Crantor said:
			
		

> Security clearances are conducted in conjunction with other agencies.  So we are bound by their red tape.  Also CF recruiting isn't high on the priority list when these agencies are *trying to get soldiers cleared for deployments*, foreign service members cleared for foreign postings, essential workers cleared for their line of work etc etc.
> 
> Also 2 years for a pre-sec is the exception more than it is the norm.
> 
> It's sad to say but we need to get smarter about it.  Target countries of concern, facilitate people from traditional allied countries.



Now they say there are no stupid questions but this could be one...wouldn't soldiers _already_ be cleared?  Maybe I am misreading this point...you mean, updating to Lev II or what-have-you?


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

I just heard today that YRAP is expanding in NS to 2 platoons of instructors...heard it from the soon to be Sgt-Maj there.
I think that little camp is gonna be busy.


----------



## pbi

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> Now they say there are no stupid questions but this could be one...wouldn't soldiers _already_ be cleared?  Maybe I am misreading this point...you mean, updating to Lev II or what-have-you?



Not necesarily. The original clearance may not have been adequate for the new security level the person requires (ie going to Top Secret), or the clearance may have lapsed after a time period. Unfortunately, experience has shown us that soldiers who previously passed a clearance can later on get involved with criminal activities or other things that risk their clearance.

Cheers


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

PBI,

roger that, it was what I thought was meant, updating from ERC to Lev II or whatever the case is.  I  had that happen with one of my Cpl's, requirement for Lev II and some bad stuff came out of it.

Mud


----------



## navymich

pbi said:
			
		

> Not necesarily. The original clearance may not have been adequate for the new security level the person requires (ie going to Top Secret), or the *clearance may have lapsed after a time period*. Unfortunately, experience has shown us that soldiers who previously passed a clearance can later on get involved with criminal activities or other things that risk their clearance.



I know there are certain "special" clearances out there that are only in place while you are in a certain job or position, but I have always been under the impression that your regular clearance cannot lapse.  Yes, you require an update (every 10 years for Conf and Secret, every 5 for Top Secret), but unless you have done something to warrant it, you cannot lose your clearance as soon as that time period has passed.


----------



## Jarnhamar

My opinion on why the CFis having recruiting problems.

1)  Reservists getting jerked around when trying to join the regular force.  There are a LOT of reservists anxious to join the regular force.  Some of them may be able to component transfer right into the regs, others can skip basic training.  Seems like a good way to save money time and man power.   I don't know how many reservists I know are waiting on paperwork and crap to transfer to the regular force.  I've been waiting over 2 years.

2) Recruiting ads.  Their for pussies, simply as that. Have you seen the American ads?  You watch them and you get excited. They look pretty bad ass with soldiers doing some seriously cool shit with good music pumping in the backround.  Then you see the CF ads. They look like some highschool debate team ad.  Strong, proud!  Sorry, that's not cutting it.  Hard to be proud of something that comes across as wishy washey, recruiting commercials and ads seem pretty fake.

3) Support for combat arms.  I'd say 99% of the people I've spoke with, many recruiters included, tried to talk me out of going combat arms. Sure I appreciate that they want me to get a trade and schooling and such but what happens when we have NO compat arms? All we have are clerks and computer guys.  People need to realise that combat arms is an important area of the Canadian Forces and should stop being looked at like the red headed stop child.

4) Tougher recruiting.  New recruits can't polish their boots but they sure as hell know the harassment policy inside and out and know exactly when they can bend that sucker to their will and get off with being idiots.  How many of us have a story about some new guy or girl milking the harassment policy. Those jerks should be punted.  Same with people who join the military injured.   Sure, props to you for wanting to serve the country but your not very much good when you join the army needing special boots, allergic to the sun, metal and grass and you need this this and that special diets and personal admin.  Lets stop recruiting citizens who ask what their country can do for them.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

Ghost778 said:
			
		

> My opinion on why the CFis having recruiting problems.
> 
> 1)  Reservists getting jerked around when trying to join the regular force.  There are a LOT of reservists anxious to join the regular force.  Some of them may be able to component transfer right into the regs, others can skip basic training.  Seems like a good way to save money time and man power.   I don't know how many reservists I know are waiting on paperwork and crap to transfer to the regular force.  I've been waiting over 2 years.
> 
> 4) Tougher recruiting.  New recruits can't polish their boots but they sure as hell know the harassment policy inside and out and know exactly when they can bend that sucker to their will and get off with being idiots.  How many of us have a story about some new guy or girl milking the harassment policy. Those jerks should be punted.  Same with people who join the military injured.   Sure, props to you for wanting to serve the country but your not very much good when you join the army needing special boots, allergic to the sun, metal and grass and you need this this and that special diets and personal admin.  Lets stop recruiting citizens who ask what their country can do for them.



I am not sure why you would be over 2 years.  I am CTing as well, and it was one month total from 1st visit to CFRC and to my CFAT/Medical/interview (last week).  2 of those weeks was putting the paperwork together (college transcripts, etc) and then I was in 2 weeks after my completed application went in.  My MCpl is also CTing, same trade.  He went in a day after me to hand in his completed application and he ASLO did his CFAt/med/interview, one day after me.  So, I guess, if nothing else, we can say "job well done" to the folks at CFRC Halifax.  I know the recruiter who is handling CTs, he processes about 10 a week from Halifax.  I don't think it is safe to say "across the board CTs are messed up".  What is taking 2 years for you?  Does your CoC support your CT?  I just can't see what would take 2 years.  There is a missing piece to that puzzle.

You just said you are CTing.  Now you are saying new recruits can't polish their boots?  Are you talking about recruits from CFLRS?  Or are you talking about PRes recruits that you Bde is training.  The point I am trying to make is, who are you directing the "faulty instruction" of the recruits at?  I know in my unit, we put our OWN people thru BMQ/GMT/FELT, whatever you want to call it.  So...for my unit (PEIR), if we have "crappy recruits", we have to look in the mirror to point the finger at the training cadre to messed up...if that was the case.

If the only thing with a potential recruit is they need special boots, but aside from that they will make a SUPER pilot/gunner/infanteer/AVS Tech/Bosun or whatever trade, I say sign they up, and get them some friggin' boots. 

I do agree with SOME of what you said in Para 4, there is potentially some people getting in that don't meet the cut for the CF, but, hey, I wear special boots.  Should I be put to pasture because of fallen arches from the kickass issued black slippers I wore for 14 years??

Mud


----------



## pbi

> Reservists getting jerked around when trying to join the regular force.



Agree. This is a bit better than it was, but it still seems to be a painfully slow system. Since the person is already in the CF, it should be faster than bringing somebody in off the street. Going the other way (Reg to Res) can be pain in the a** too;



> Recruiting ads.  Their for pussies, simply as that.



IMHO it depends. In past few years I have seen two very good ads: one was for Navy, the other more Army oriented. In the last while I haven 't seen any advertising, period. (But then maybe I don't get out enough). I think we are a hell of a lot better than we were in the days of the geek coming down the gangway of the destroyer with a briefcase.



> Support for combat arms.  I'd say 99% of the people I've spoke with, many recruiters included, tried to talk me out of going combat arms



Based on comments I have heard from Comd CFRG, this is probably because Cbt Arms recruiting is doing very well: this is not where the shortages are. Inf, in particular, is doing very well. IMHO our biggest limiting factor in the CF is not the availability of Cbt Arms: it is the fact that there are so few deployable CSS folks left that we have had to do radical surgery in the Army to keep our support functions going. No support: no operations-period. And, by the way, as an Inf soldier myself, I do not want folks joining the Inf who don't have at least a complete high school diploma, which these days is the bare minimum standard of public education;



> Tougher recruiting.  New recruits can't polish their boots but they sure as hell know the harassment policy inside and out and know exactly when they can bend that sucker to their will and get off with being idiots.



I think we should be careful here. A bunch of guys running around in the deserts of Afghanistan right now only joined the Army in the last two-three of years. By all accounts I have heard, they are doing pretty well;



> Same with people who join the military injured.



Are there really all that many of these? My experience dealing with CFRG during the period 2002-2005, covering Reserve recruiting in MB, MAN and NWONT (via our supporting CFRC and dets) was just the opposite. The medical restrictions were so tight that recruits were rejected for having old football injuries (healed years before), acne, etc. We fought a number of cases that we believed were too restrictive: without any doubt it was this medical aspect that was the most frustrating to deal with. Given the Fed Govt (ie: Treasury Board) reluctance to take on any liability in the pension area, I would be very surprised to see that we are actually recruiting many people with any significant medical problems. As far as I know, we are even cracking down on the accomdation policy that allowed people to remain in service with low medical categories.

Cheers.


----------



## Kirkhill

> Based on comments I have heard from Comd CFRG, this is probably because Cbt Arms recruiting is doing very well: this is not where the shortages are. Inf, in particular, is doing very well. IMHO our biggest limiting factor in the CF is not the availability of Cbt Arms: it is the fact that there are so few deployable CSS folks left that we have had to do radical surgery in the Army to keep our support functions going. No support: no operations-period. And, by the way, as an Inf soldier myself, I do not want folks joining the Inf who don't have at least a complete high school diploma, which these days is the bare minimum standard of public education;



How successful is internal recruiting?  ie.  Once troops have joined as infanteers and done a tour in Afghanistan how many release, go to reserves, continue as reg inf or remuster as engineers, medics, gunners etc?

As I understand the old Regimental system everyone came in as a rifleman and then as they progressed in service they moved up in rank but they also moved "to the rear" as support numbers, progressing through support to service support.  Is this being successfully applied across the CF?

Is there any mileage to be gained out of taking advantage of all of these youngsters that join to go on patrol but then discover the realities of soldiering - the boredom and action thing, but more importantly discover the value of all of the support trades?  If there is a surplus of 031/011 candidates is it feasible to bring them in in any case and then recruit them to the trades after they're in?

I am not in favour of bait and switch, but if the Regiments were filled and the prospect was of two or three years regimental duties or a deployment in 3 months as a truck driver would there be takers?


More random thoughts.

Cheers


----------



## Jarnhamar

Hey ya mud recce man,




> What is taking 2 years for you?



A clerk at a unit I was with dropped the ball big time. Took almost a year for my paperwork to be sorted out and leave the regiment I was with.  When I transfered they sent it within a week.  I then had a mix up with my medical which could have easily shit canned me but an amazing officer from NDMC went out of his way to take care of me.  They had an offer for me in January but no one told me so I signed a year long class C contract and can't back out now.  I know it can be chalked up to a case of good luck or bad luck, I just feel more importance could be placed on CTs from reserve units.  (I can't complain about my current one however, it is indeed a case of luck when CTing)



> Now you are saying new recruits can't polish their boots?



Too literal.  I simply meant brand new recruits with zero time in the military.  "Don't know how to polish their boots yet"would have been better wording on my part for sure.



> "crappy recruits", we have to look in the mirror to point the finger at the training cadre to messed up...if that was the case.



The feeling I get from many instructors is that they CAN'T fail students who by all rights should fail. 



> I do agree with SOME of what you said in Para 4, there is potentially some people getting in that don't meet the cut for the CF, but, hey, I wear special boots.  Should I be put to pasture because of fallen arches from the kickass issued black slippers I wore for 14 years??



Rhetorical question 
Of course you shouldn't. key phrase is you wearing those slippers for 14 years.  Big difference between someone like yourself and some guy off the street who knows he can work the system to get himself $400 high speed boots at the militarises expense.
We argued this not too long ago actually, stemming from a military mother practically demanding her recruit son be given a chit for the CF to pay for vibram soles or boots or whatever. 

PBI,



> The medical restrictions were so tight that recruits were rejected for having old football injuries (healed years before),



That could very well be the case and I'm basing my opinion off out dated info.



> I think we should be careful here. A bunch of guys running around in the deserts of Afghanistan right now only joined the Army in the last two-three of years. By all accounts I have heard, they are doing pretty well



Oh for sure, I don't disagree.  My argument was that now it seems like recruits know how to milk the system and all the ins and outs of harassment policies and what they can get away with before they know how to soldier.  I could be out in left field here, just feels like we could use a more mission before self mentality instilled in these guys and girls sooner.


----------



## paracowboy

Ghost778 said:
			
		

> My argument was that now it seems like recruits know how to milk the system and all the ins and outs of harassment policies and what they can get away with before they know how to soldier.  I could be out in left field here, just feels like we could use a more mission before self mentality instilled in these guys and girls sooner.


"I could be out in left field here" you are not. There is a systemic problem with it.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

paracowboy said:
			
		

> "I could be out in left field here" you are not. There is a systemic problem with it.



Well, had no idea it was that bad.  I remember discussing this stuff on a thread about "St Jean vs. Cornwallis" and I got the impression that it WASN'T a problem.

Is it at the CFLRS level?  Surely not the Battle Schools?  Or just...the "new and not-improved" CF mentality (we should all not offend anyone, hug trees yadda yadda)


----------



## Long in the tooth

"A clerk at a unit I was with dropped the ball big time."

Of course it would have nothing to do with the chain of command, changing circumstances, or the fact that reserve admin takes 30 times as long to get done as reg f admin?  I could get a reccomendation from the CSM, approval from the Adj and walk paper over to 1 CMBG HQ in one day... like that's ever gonna happen in the RSS world.


----------



## paracowboy

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> Well, had no idea it was that bad.  I remember discussing this stuff on a thread about "St Jean vs. Cornwallis" and I got the impression that it WASN'T a problem.
> 
> Is it at the CFLRS level?  Surely not the Battle Schools?  Or just...the "new and not-improved" CF mentality (we should all not offend anyone, hug trees yadda yadda)


I don't know where it starts, but the end-product is troops that know exactly what to do in order to get off an Exercise, but don't know how to operate a C6. In the past 3 years, I've had troops complete their entire BE without ever once getting in the weeds for more than 24 hours. No exaggeration.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

Holy shite.  Not on at all.  I had no idea things were like that (my head has been inside the HQ far too long).

You would think that those types get weeded out at Battle School.

The C6 is an excellent weapon, you would think they would WANT the thing, not avoid it.

Maybe we should give them those electric throat collars, and at the first sign of weakness...ZAP!  (just kidding of course...sort of)


----------



## paracowboy

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> You would think that those types get weeded out at Battle School.


nope. We had one guy who had been committed to an asylum (TWICE) that we not only could not fail from his Battle School course, but couldn't get rid of from BN, until his BE was done.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

hmmmm

back to that electric throat collar idea...


----------



## paracowboy

kids struggle and wait years to get in and serve their country, and junk can't be ditched. What happened?


----------



## George Wallace

What happened?

Charter of Human Rights.  SHARP Training.  Differential Training.  Training in what the Harassment Policy is in detail.  Barrackroom Lawyers.  Too many Redress of Grievances by the 'weak' who had Failed, but the Staff hadn't documented well enough.  Soft Commanders at the Schools who allowed the Students yet another chance, against the advice and documented Shortcomings of the Crse Instructors and Crse Officers.  What Happened?  We became the Chretien "Softer, Kinder, Gentler Army" where everyone has the 'Right' to join and serve.


----------



## a_majoor

Nothing is impossible, if we have the will to do so. Although the specific example is the United States, consider we were also there in strength (a million men under arms, the world's third largest Navy etc.), starting from virtually the same conditions.This is a classic example of what is possible, starting from pretty much 0:

http://www.jerrypournelle.com/mail/mail417.html



> *Subject: D Day thoughts *
> 
> Indeed it is well to remember a few things about what these United States Of America accomplished on dune 6, 1944:
> 
> On D-Day, the Allies landed around 156,000 troops in Normandy. The American forces landed numbered 73,000. *Ninety-five per cent of these American soldiers just 912 days earlier, on December 7, 1941, had been civilians with no military training, experience or even any great desire to be soldiers. *
> 
> 11,590 aircraft were available to support the landings. On D-Day, Allied aircraft flew 14,674 sorties. *All of these aircraft had been built in less than three years. Ninety per cent of their pilots had never flown IN an airplane, much less piloted one, before December of 1941. Ninety-five per cent of the mechanics and other ground support personnel who maintained their engines and other systems had never set foot on an airfield, much less worked on an aircraft, prior to December of 1941.*
> 
> Operation Neptune, the naval support operation for the Overlord landings, involved huge naval forces, including 6939 vessels: 1213 naval combat ships, 4126 landing ships and landing craft, 736 ancillary craft and 864 merchant vessels. Some 195,700 personnel were assigned to Operation Neptune: 52,889 US, 112,824 British, and 4988 from other Allied countries. A third of the ships were from the navy of these United States of America. *80% of those ships had been built since December, 1941. Ninety percent of the seamen and eighty per cent of the officers manning those vessels of war had never crewed more than a rowboat prior to December, 1941. A third of them had never seen the ocean before December 7, 1941*.
> 
> A pipeline was laid under the ocean to carry fuel and lubricants to the allied forces. Two pre-fabricated harbors had been designed, built and towed through one of the most treacherous bodies of water in the world and installed on the Channel coast of France while under enemy fire.
> 
> *All of this, and more, done in 912 days. All of it done without electronic computers. All of it done without fax machines, without cell phones, without voice mail, all of it done with manual typewriters and mechanical calculators and reams of paper and legions of men and women filing and stamping and checking and rechecking and working as if their lives depended on it. As if! *
> 
> And today, with all our wealth and technology, our "leadership" tells us we cannot control our own borders, we cannot find Americans willing, at any price, to hew wood, draw water and break stone, that tell us daily that we cannot build a nation fit for heroes and the children of heroes without foreign labor to bake our daily bread.
> 
> The American military, despised in the 1920s and 1930s, under funded, officered by men who often came from the despised rural regions of the country. rose to the task and, for better or worse, did the job they were asked to do. Then they laid down their weapons, dismantled their armies and fleets, and returned to their plows, by and large.
> 
> When the leader of this great effort in due time rose to the chief magistracy of these united States, his final speech to the nation he had served so honorably was not a summation of military horns and laurels, all his to rest on, and more. No, he used that auspicious moment to warn his nation of the danger of the military if allowed too great an influence in society.
> 
> And today again the United States military is often mocked, easily despised, and all too often given tasks as "impossible' D Day in 1944. And it still accomplishes them.
> 
> You want industrialization of space? A moon colony? An outpost on Mars? Give the job to the military. While you whine about the militarization of space, they will quickly and efficiently accomplish it, and then hand the keys to your new world to you. And then return to their barracks.
> 
> We do not deserve them. We never have. But they are the best we have.
> 
> Petronius The Arbiter Of Taste



So Ladies and Gentlemen, that is the bar. We have every advantage over our predecessors and our American counterparts from the late 1930's, and a war to focus us on the task at hand. Let's go!


----------



## SeaRoom

Applicants who are injured are not enrolled into the CF, period. Applicants are screened concerning their medical status right up to the last few hours before they enrol, and should they slip through due to omission of medical info on their part, my experience has been that they are promptly pulled from BMQ and released.

Applicants with certain medical conditions that do not interfere with geographic or operational employment are acceptable, and why shouldn’t they be? How many otherwise great personnel would we lose? And does a civilian who wants a $400 pair of boots really think three years in the mob is a cheaper price to pay? You could make $400 panhandling in less than a year. As already mention, the med portion of the recruiting process is probably the most restrictive of all the assessments an applicant goes through.

The Gomery Commission and the election that followed put a freeze of government advertising. Recruiting Group attempted to get an exemption to allow recruiting ads to be aired but was unsuccessful – it takes an actual act of parliament. So that’s why you haven’t seen a lot of advertising. Since the election, a couple ads were shot but were poorly received by focus groups, so the ad firm went back the drawing board. Could be a while before we see any new ads. Also FYI, “Strong and Proud...” is supposedly being canned – recruiting doesn’t like it either.

The reality of the current job market means that CF recruiting has to become less restrictive. There’s a lot of “benefit of the doubt” with borderline individuals. Send them to training, and let them prove themselves. If you send 20 suspect individuals to training and 10 fail, well you’ve at least got 10 acceptable ones. We can’t afford to turn people away because we think there’s a chance that they won’t make it through training, because there’s also the chance that they will. The cost of that is that there will be more duds. If we increase the enrolment standard, however, not only will the CF not grow, it will decline. Recruiting has a huge job ahead of it to make numbers, and the training system is going to have a huge job a head of it to bring these enrollees up to the standard require of them. But as mentioned, we’ve done it before.


----------



## Pendant

Im new in all this and i only just enrolled in the reserves and im 17. I think i can have a different outlook on this since im the age group they are trying to appeal to (younger). The recruiters who come to my school litterelly sit in our office and wait for kids to come and talk to them they have absolutely no will to go talk to the students themselves. The ads put out are cool and exciting but alot of kids have no idea what the pay or benefits are in the military, they still figure its really low and only the rejects of society join up but that isnt true. Movies have a great impact on recruiting too, you think it looks cool and all but you also see the downsides of joining which sometimes make them not want to join. I had a buddy who works with me, he applied over a year ago and he was contacted twice by letter telling him that they still had his application in file but it had not yet been processed. they need to speed up the process, i also read in the paper that almost half the people who want to join are turned off by the amount of time and effort is needed just to get in for your interview, maybe this should be fast tracked if they truly wish to meet the goals they have. The whole recruiting process needs to be redone to meet todays world and they need to be alot quicker in processing and they need to grab the interest of teenagers and young adults. when my uncle joined up to the army in the late 70's he was on a train the next day, my dad was in cornwallis pretty much just as quick. Today there is to much politics in it all. They need to get back to they way it once was i mean today we have computers and all kinds of state of the art technology, well why is it taking longer now then when they had type writers and file cabinets?


----------



## TCBF

Hey Pendant,

The above was a good post.  Well done!


----------



## Michael OLeary

Pendant said:
			
		

> They need to get back to they way it once was i mean today we have computers and all kinds of state of the art technology, well why is it taking longer now then when they had type writers and file cabinets?



I would suggest that the one question that has not yet been asked or answered is: what is the relative success rate based on the current system against historical attrition during training and basic engagement periods?  Simplifying and accelerating the recruiting system to norms of the 1970s or earlier may result in larger numbers being released during training, or during their initial engagement, for fundamental aspects of unsuitability.  Despite the common complaints of the duration of the process, we have yet to see any statistical analysis of the benefits of a more thorough recruiting process, which may well support a more thorough approach.

It may have been simpler to process a recruit applicant in the 70s, but I am sure it was undoubtedly easier to get rid of someone who proved themselves unsuited to military training as well.


----------



## TCBF

So, why is it so hard to release those pers who so desparately need releasing?  Is there some secret course taught at RMC that instills in all attendees the premise that the military serves as well to employ society's degenerates, malcontents and chronic untrainables?


----------



## Pendant

exactly, people will obviously b*tch and complain about being released if they feel they were good enough but the military isnt something you join because there is nothing to do i mean some people who do join for that reason go on to have great careers in the military but for the most part if a recruit is unsuitable they usually will take themselves out of BMQ by screwing up in someway of simply leaving because they wernt prepared for the reality that is the Military. You are right that more people will get in and more people will fail but the people who are getting in today andpassing will still be attending this and you will also get alot of the people who wouldnt make it with todays system making it in which increases the amount of recruits we have to throw into the infantry and the navy and the airforce that are needed, I know i said infantry and not army well lets face it the infantry is pretty much what their recruiting for now anyways that and support trades for the infantry... I say mix a little of the old with the new the process used now is almost to thorough and needs to go back to the old but with todays technology the process will be more efficient


----------



## Michael OLeary

Perhaps we need some NCOs currently instructing BMQ to tell us if they think the bar should be significantly lowered.  They are, after all, the ones who would have to deal with a greater number of marginal candidates that are now being held back by the current strictness of the recruiting process.

Pendant, I believe you will also find the comment on the board that recruiting for the Infantry is not our current problem, it is finding those who meet the requirements for support trades.  Please let us know from your own experience how you justify that recruiting for the infantry and "support trades for the infantry" supports an argument that recruiting standards should be relaxed.


----------



## Pendant

right now at this current time canada lacks "Front line" soldiers which are combat arms and the engineers which keep them going. The govt has already made it clear that the majority of their recruiting goals are for the Army. If you go on the recruitment website the Combat arms and Engineers section comes up under hot jobs aswell as doctors but they are always in demand.

Combat arms are the following trades

For NCM
Armoured Soldier 
Artillery Soldier - Air Defence 
Artillery Soldier - Field 
Combat Engineer 
Infantry Soldier 

Officer
Officer - Armour 
Officer - Artillery 
Officer - Engineer 
Officer - Infantry 

Engineers are the following trades
Officer - Aerospace Engineering 
Officer - Airfield Engineering 
Officer - Communications and Electronics Engineering (Air) 
Officer - Electrical and Mechanical Engineering 
Officer - Engineer 
Officer - Marine Systems Engineering 
Officer - Naval Combat Systems Engineering 
Officer - Signals 

The logistics side of our forces obviously doesnt need a high number of recruits to come in it are the "front line" troops or combat arms that really need the fresh bodies. They are loosing alot of their soldiers to retirement, and medical problems and some just retire early because the life isnt for them anymore and due to the high operational tempo of the past few years.


----------



## Pendant

and it isnt the recruitment standards necessarily that need to be relaxed but the amount of time they spend on determining those standards. They do every possible test to find this out and then they do it over from how long the process takes. ive never done recruiting so i really dont know how much time and effort go into determining these "standards" but as far as i can see and with all the knowledge i have it looks to me that the military isnt looking for a bunch of highly skilled highly trained people to join their ranks, it looks to me that they are looking for physically fit people with the determination to succeed. they need to speed up the process because alot of the people who are interested get bad impressions from just from the recruiting process. and the NCO's running BMQ run it with hooligans and rejects in it now i honestly dont think that they would care aslong as their workload doesnt become to much and if we get more recruits we would need more NCO's to run the BMQ we wouldnt load a ton more on the ones currently running it at St. Jean and other training facilities.


----------



## Pendant

and im sorry if it seems like im arguing here i just enjoy a good discussion from time to time lol and i find i learn alot of useful things by doing so


----------



## Michael OLeary

Pendant said:
			
		

> right now at this current time canada lacks "Front line" soldiers which are combat arms and the engineers which keep them going. The govt has already made it clear that the majority of their recruiting goals are for the Army. If you go on the recruitment website the Combat arms and Engineers section comes up under hot jobs aswell as doctors but they are always in demand.



So, exactly how are we doing in meeting those quotas?  Are we filling the training capacity in BMQ and the Training centres for combat arms trades training?  Do you have facts, or just conjecture?




			
				Pendant said:
			
		

> Combat arms are the following trades
> 
> For NCM
> Armoured Soldier
> Artillery Soldier - Air Defence
> Artillery Soldier - Field
> Combat Engineer
> Infantry Soldier
> 
> Officer
> Officer - Armour
> Officer - Artillery
> Officer - Engineer
> Officer - Infantry



Really? Why thank you, I would never have known those trades all belonged to the combat arms?




			
				Pendant said:
			
		

> Engineers are the following trades
> Officer - Aerospace Engineering
> Officer - Airfield Engineering
> Officer - Communications and Electronics Engineering (Air)
> Officer - Electrical and Mechanical Engineering
> Officer - Engineer
> Officer - Marine Systems Engineering
> Officer - Naval Combat Systems Engineering
> Officer - Signals



So, these are different from the Engineers under combat arms?




			
				Pendant said:
			
		

> The logistics side of our forces obviously doesnt need a high number of recruits to come in it are the "front line" troops or combat arms that really need the fresh bodies. They are loosing alot of their soldiers to retirement, and medical problems and some just retire early because the life isnt for them anymore and due to the high operational tempo of the past few years.



Sources? Facts? Figures? 

Thank you for the detailed explanation.  I guess I should have paid more attention during my Reserve basic training .... back in 1979.


----------



## George Wallace

Your writing skills showed great improvement there....well it did until you posted again.  Where did you find this info?


----------



## Pendant

ive been readin crap all night, been a really boring night but ive been reading senate reviews on the military, older news i never read, and ive also been taking a look in this forum (i havnt heared anything on this in the forums,  just trying to get across the point that im bored haha)


----------



## Michael OLeary

Pendant said:
			
		

> and it isnt the recruitment standards necessarily that need to be relaxed but the amount of time they spend on determining those standards.
> They do every possible test to find this out and then they do it over from how long the process takes.



Perhaps it's a question of standards and resources - to maintain the desired standard with the available resources takes a certain amount of time.  You either compromise on the standard, or apply less resources per case (same result), or you stop doing something else to throw more resources at the 'problem.' In cases where the 'resource' is a specialist, it means they're not doing the job they had and that function gets backed up.  It's not a simple problem to fix, it's a delicate balancing act affecting many aspects of the whole system.




			
				Pendant said:
			
		

> ive never done recruiting so i really dont know how much time and effort go into determining these "standards" but as far as i can see and with all the knowledge i have it looks to me that the military isnt looking for a bunch of highly skilled highly trained people to join their ranks, it looks to me that they are looking for physically fit people with the determination to succeed.



Since you've never done recruiting, perhaps we should listen to those who have.

We are looking for highly skilled trained people - for the trades that will benefit from those intakes and save us years of training to get them to the point where we get our money's worth back.

We also want fit determined candidate - but we do need to make sure they have the appropriate aptitude, health and personal attributes (drugs, security check, financial responsibility, etc.) that will lead them to be productive members of the CF, and not an administrative burden.  It doesn't matter how fit and determined someone is, if we're spending our time putting him through disciplinary processes or administrative counseling, he's a drain on the system, not an asset.




			
				Pendant said:
			
		

> they need to speed up the process because alot of the people who are interested get bad impressions from just from the recruiting process. and the NCO's running BMQ run it with hooligans and rejects in it now i honestly dont think that they would care aslong as their workload doesnt become to much and if we get more recruits we would need more NCO's to run the BMQ we wouldnt load a ton more on the ones currently running it at St. Jean and other training facilities.



Yes, according to the reports we've seen here over the past few years (accepting that not all the stories may have presented all the facts) they need to speed up the process, which i believe has started.  They do not, however, need to relax the standard to achieve that.

Don't dismiss the ease by which 'hooligans and rejects" can be absorbed.  The ones you mention are the ones who met the standard; imagine adding the ones behind them.  

An example from my personal experience: I once ran a training course with an Threshhold Knowledge Test (TKT). The test had always been given, but had not in memory been upheld.  I convinced the School Commandant to uphold the TKT and we sent one-third of the course candidates back to their units the next day.  In the after action review of the course, my staff estimated that their workload on focussed one-on-one review was cut in half, and most lectures were completed in record time.  That difference was the cost of burdening the course with unprepared (or marginal) candidates.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Pendant said:
			
		

> ive been readin crap all night, been a really boring night but ive been reading senate reviews on the military, older news i never read, and ive also been taking a look in this forum (i havnt heared anything on this in the forums,  just trying to get across the point that im bored haha)



Wonderful, next time you are bored try reading instead of posting. And I won't waste my time entertaining you by trying to explain the shape of the world.


----------



## Pendant

you misread my post. Im bored tonight and i read and researched all this. I know i dont have the experience in this but i would like to learn from someone who does. im looking for constructive criticism on what i read and know not destructive.


----------



## Springroll

This....


			
				Pendant said:
			
		

> and it isnt the recruitment standards necessarily that need to be relaxed but the amount of time they spend on determining those standards. They do every possible test to find this out and then they do it over from how long the process takes.



and this.....



			
				Pendant said:
			
		

> they need to speed up the process because alot of the people who are interested get bad impressions from just from the recruiting process.



are both very accurate. They are losing some good recruits because of the amount of time the current process is taking. Nobody wants to wait a year to get a job, and if they do there is most likely an interesting reason why, and that is where the hooligans come in. Back in the 70's, they gave criminals the choice to either join the CF or go to jail....so we do not want that system back, that is for sure. We also do not want to relax the standards to the point where we let in every tom, dick or harry(no offence to anyone with those names).


----------



## Bograt

Springroll,

Having spent the last 5 months as a MCC in a recruiting det, I would like to address some of the issues in your last post. 

First, I would like to suggest that an applicant is not applying for a job, but rather making a career choice.

Second, regardless of what one thinks, there are not unlimited positions within the CF irrespective of the trade. Thus, as in the civy world, this is a competitive process. Just because one meets a minimum standard for the trade does not suggest that they are competitive for that trade.

Third, "delays" are in fact part of the application process. Specifically, there are periods of time when files are reviewed by different people- med staff, security screeners, selection boards. Each of these periods are necessary, and require time.

Fourth, "delays" are not always as a result of the CFRC. Believe it or not, many applications come through the office that are incomplete- missing documents (letters of reference, transcripts, signed ERC forms, birth certificates, sin, etc). These missing materials are automatic stoppers. Then we have issues with drugs, dependability, legal etc... that cause "delays".

What I have found, is that some applicants don't relay the "whole story" when they talk about their processing. Due to the Privacy Act we are unable to refute what they may suggest. For instance, yesterday I handled a call from a father who wanted to know why SA Bloggins has to wait a year before applying again. I was bound by the privacy act. 

Delays suck. No one like waiting (unless it is a Tantric thing).There are plenty of good stories coming from the recruiting centres as well.


----------



## kincanucks

_They are losing some good recruits because of the amount of time the current process is taking._

Oh please provide me the names or even the numbers of these "some good recruits" that we are "losing" because of the recruiting process.  That is a common rallying cry around here especially for people who are being held up because they don't meet the medical standards, are counselled out for drugs, can't pass a simple aptitude test or can't meet the basic physical standards.

_Nobody wants to wait a year to get a job, and if they do there is most likely an interesting reason why, and that is where the hooligans come in._

Well there is a well thought out statement.  So according to you anyone who is willing to wait a year to get accepted in the CF has some ulterior motive and is up to no good?

In my last few days of recruiting I would like to say that the recruiting standards are fine right now and could even be higher.  There is talk a high that maybe we don't need complete medicals, interviews, or drug screening so that the process can be sped up and to me that spells danger.  Does the process take a long time?  For some people yes but it all depends on what you consider a long time.  To me if a  'clean' applicant makes it in after one to three months then that is pretty damn good.  The people I have seen meet these standards and been enrolled in the CF, for the most part, are some of the best I have seen in 20+ years of service.  Is the CF for everyone? No it isn't but there are some people that continuously clog up the system that don't seem to realize that and then you hear "They are losing some good recruits because of the amount of time the current process is taking."


----------



## GAP

Bograt said:
			
		

> Delays suck. There are plenty of good stories coming from the recruiting centres as well.



From the outside looking in...I think the perception here is part of the problem  

While I realize the privacy act limits you, most of the stories I read on here (agreed...are not always complete) relate to the frustrations of the waiting game. People don't know where they are on the checklist of things to accomplish prior to being accepted or rejected. It is probably not feasible, but even if people applying could have a periodic letter sent to them that itemizes the stage at which they are, and what is yet to be accomplished. If this is a year long process, then a quarterly checklist might be applicable. This would not only let the person know where they stand in relation to their application, but would mean that someone has to periodically handle their file and ensure it is not forgotten or lost in the shuffle.


----------



## GAP

Further to Kincanucks comments, If a person who is sailing through the process, can get accepted within 3 months, then they will never receive a checklist letter, just a congratulatory letter.


----------



## Bograt

I don't want to legitmize the "one year" date that gets tossed around here. The time is dependant on a number of things- time you apply, strength of application, need of the CF etc. 

After the end of the interview, candidates are told what is going to happen to their file and are told to keep in regular contact with the office.

edit changed "year" to "here" in first sentence. My newfie accent is coming through...


----------



## Springroll

Is there a time line that the CFRC has to go by? 

Like CFAT within X amount of time from app submission, medical within X amount of time, etc?


----------



## Bograt

Not that I am aware of- that being said, we do screen people as soon as we are able to do so. - i.e.- completed file, med staff available, etc...

It is in the recruiting centres interest to do things quickly, because we are subject to "target enrolments" each fiscal year. Now with Force Expansion, those target numbers are even larger.


----------



## Springroll

Bograt said:
			
		

> Not that I am aware of- that being said, we do screen people as soon as we are able to do so. - i.e.- completed file, med staff available, etc...



Okay. I wasn't sure if there was or not.

I have read a few stories on here where people have done their testing all in one day. 
Is there a reason why all the CFRC's aren't trying to do things like that with all the applications submitted?
Is it not possible with the amount of applications coming through and not enough staff at the CFRC's?


----------



## Bograt

Okay, my det is very small- we don't have med staff or a PSP guy. So when we process, we fly in our staff and get people done all in one day. We only process every 4-5 weeks- depending on how many completed files we have. 

Some other offiices process every day- and they have med staff/and or PSP staff available. I believe the CFRC in Halifax has contracted the PT test out to a fitness centre in the same building. 

Hope that answers you question.


----------



## Springroll

Bograt said:
			
		

> I believe the CFRC in Halifax has contracted the PT test out to a fitness centre in the same building.



Yes, the CFRC in Halifax has contracted their PT testing out to Nubody's but you also have the choice to have your test done on base at the Stadacona gym.

Thanks for answering my questions.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

Ok here goes.  My "recruiting" stories.

I decided to apply to the Reg Force in 1989.  Contacted the CFRC in Charlottotown.

2 weeks later, I wrote the appitude test.  Interview, etc etc,  Trade selection, medical the whole sha-bang was done within a month.  I had no "hitches" (legal, medical, etc etc) or "stoppers" if I can call them that.  Completed the application process in 1 day, was put overnight in a hotel, treated very well.  That was January, 1989.  Then...like everyone else, I waited.  For a "Conditional offer of enrolment" I believe it was called then.  Got a call in May.  Sworn in July 25/89.  Arrived CFRS Cornwallis 29 July/89.  So for me, it was 6 months from "hey I want to be in the military" to when I was getting my head shaved and wearing my prisoner coveralls and slippers.  :blotto:

left Reg Frce.

joined Reserves.  2 months, I was sworn in again.

Now I am CT'ing BACK to Reg Frce.  I contacted CFRC. Had my COMPLETE application with ALL documents (as per the CT checklist provided by CFRC Halifax) 2 weeks later.  2 days after I dropped off my App, I was booked in for CFAT/Med/Interview, which was 2 weeks after my COMPLETED application was in their hands.

I have been "recruited" a total of 3 times, and never had or heard personally of hold ups spanning 1-2 years.  Not saying they don't happen, how would I know about everyone else, but..speaking from my own 3 experiences with CFRC, I was never held back, but...I also had my own crap together (i.e. they didn't have to wait for transcripts, etc etc).  I think, in some cases, the individual has to take SOME ownership for hold ups, if they have left the CFRC with an incomplete application.  I look at myself as part of my recruiting team, and think it is MY job to give them the info/paperwork they need to be able to be successful.  But thats just me...

Mud


----------



## Enzo

Bograt - I didn't do a search so I apologize if you've answered this elsewhere. Your profile says that you're a pilot, if you don't mind me asking, why are you currently posted to a CFRC det?

Mud - I got out in '98 at the wrong time (my medical status wasn't determined before I put in my release) so I've had to endure a long process for my return (well documented in prior posts I'm sure). I am not the usual case (injury, travel history, etc.), and I'm now awaiting only my SQ date. Still, to begin the reapplication process in 1999 and finally have it all sorted in 2006 has a way of testing one's patience. Mistakes have been made along the way, but it does get sorted in the end. It would have been nice if it was a few years ago, but what can you do. The system has it's own pace; character building I suppose one might say. I prefer to think that my experience is the exception and not the rule.

In the end, I like being special  ;D


----------



## Pendant

All the stories i've heard have been for people attempting to join the navy so it might be the select few i talked to that had the problem because the navy wasnt interested in them at the time. I know i was applied, was accepted and sworn in within a  3 month period, im not complaining about the time it took me i made sure that everything i did was complete and passed in on time and to the right person, i take pride in doing things properly


----------



## George Wallace

Pendant

I think that we should change the name of this topic to "Forces struggling to recruits who can't construct easy to read posts".  Your posts are too hard to read, unless you have done some cut and paste - then they are legible.  I don't even know what your above post is about, as it is too difficult to decipher.


----------



## Enzo

Pendant, it's called an apostrophe, and it is your friend.  >


----------



## Springroll

Pendant said:
			
		

> I know i was applied, was accepted and sworn in within a  3 month period, im not complaining about the time it took me i made sure that everything i did was complete and passed in on time and to the right person, i take pride in doing things properly



Thats great pendant, but I think part of it is that you are 17 and joining the reserves. 
Not sure what trade, as you haven't specified (that I have seen.)


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

Another thought, maybe the system appears more flawed than it is, as we tend to remember the negative stories, and posts, more than the positive ones?

I know, in the Reserves, alot of it falls on the Unit Recruiter.  We have one unit that does EXCEPTIONALLY well, because their Recruiting WO is an exceptional recruiter.  Follows up the files with CFRC, etc etc.

I know the people  who wait longer than normal are frustrated, and, on behalf of the entire CF and your country, your patience and dedication is appreciated     

I should write speech's for the CDS!


----------



## Enzo

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> I know the people  who wait longer than normal are frustrated, and, on behalf of the entire CF and your country, your patience and dedication is appreciated



Aww shucks Mud, makes it all worth it. :cheers:


----------



## Bograt

Enzo said:
			
		

> Bograt - I didn't do a search so I apologize if you've answered this elsewhere. Your profile says that you're a pilot, if you don't mind me asking, why are you currently posted to a CFRC det?


That is correct- until 16 June. I am on OJT awaiting my flying courses. The CFRC office was much closer to my wife and family than was a flying squadron.


----------



## GUNS

The recruiting process is at fault. Its outdated. It needs changing. I have been through the recruiting process and it sucks. I was in the Reserves when I decided to go Reg. Force and it still took months to make the transfer. 

I have been told that DND is trying very hard to come up with something that will  please the goverment and not chase future soldiers away.

One must not forget, security issues was not the main reason for loosing recruits, the last report on recruitment mentioned that a vast number of hopefuls failed there physicals. 

GUNS


----------



## ready to go

My recruiting process has taken over a year and a half already and I am still waiting for a call. I can say that 3 things have hindered the process for me: 
1. Requesting additional medical information.
2. An unpaid speeding ticket.
3. A bad debt.

I can say that even with all the hassle and red tape I've had to fight with throughout the recruiting process there is nothing wrong with the system as a whole. Maybe on the CFRC Det. level there may be some staffing issues as mentioned earlier or information processing delays etc., but as a whole I think the system works fine. The problem, I think, does not lie in the 'how' but rather in the 'who'. I am not even fully recruited into the CF but my experience so far has taught me one important fact: CF has stringent policies and procedures that must be adhered to without exception or fail and these policies and procedures (regarding recruiting) are there to ensure that only the right people are recruited. So basically we, as a nation, are lacking the manpower to staff the CF according to established CF standards. 
Where are the hard-working, steely-eyed, tight-muscled kids who are brave enough, strong enough and determined enough to measure up to these standards and beyond? It is a widely known fact that our general population is unhealthy, out of shape and straight out lazy. They'd rather play hockey with an X Box controller than with a stick and puck. They'd rather take the elevator or escalator or drive than - God forbid - walk. Rather order from the drive thru window or delivery than cook for themselves. They'd rather sit in an air conditioned cubicle and watch other people work than actually be out there doing it themselves.
This cushy, comfy way of life is the plague on the CF recruiting process. The natural elements, talents and abilities all people are born with are decaying away like disease because it is so easy for people to get used to doing nothing. Now the "Call of Duty" has sounded...and the people are running away from it because it is just too much for their little cry-baby, titty sucking, lazy, coward asses to handle. What are we a country full of pussies?
What do we do about that? I say we do a draft and kick their butts in gear. Make the judgement call after BMQ: those who make it make it, those who don't don't: I wouldn't want them beside me anyway: go back to McDonalds and keep flippin burgers.


----------



## pbi

I have heard some interesting stories floating about that there may be some shocking changes coming to the CF Recruiting system with the creation of the new CF Personnel Command (will restructure and re-orient the NDHQ pers bureaucracy). One that sounds very promising is that CT will be taken out of the hands of the recruiting system (it doesn't belong there anyway) and made a routine personnel transaction.

I remain skeptical, but I know that there are some pretty good minds moving into Personnel Command as we speak, so I'll hold my shots for now.


Cheers


----------



## kincanucks

_that CT will be taken out of the hands of the recruiting system (it doesn't belong there anyway)_

Yes and take the CIC and the reserves away from recruiting too and then they can concentrate on the Reg F.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

Why not just have a seperate staff at the CFRC that handles Reg Frce only and one that handles PRes/CIC only?  Maintain quality control and stuff like that??


----------



## GAP

As an outsider looking in...what I see is a bureaucratic answer to a bureaucratic problem...more layers. 

there are bottlenecks, the CF can't be the only large organization to run into this...how was it solved elsewhere???, then adapt


----------



## Teddy Ruxpin

> Yes and take the CIC and the reserves away from recruiting too and then they can concentrate on the Reg F.



(Teddy strays out of his lane)

I disagree...  The Reserves are (and should be) every bit as operational as the Regular Force these days and the entry standard has to be identical.  Creating an alternate system (or leaving the process entirely in the hands of units as it was in the "good old days") runs the serious risk of creating diferent standards, permitting abuse of the system and adding yet more fuel to the "us versus them" mentality that still can be found throughout the CF.

As for the CIC, I agree 100%.  Then again, I continue to be mystified as to why the CIC is a "component of the Reserve Force" anyway - but that's a different argument.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

Gap

Well, maybe, but thats not how I see it.  The CF Personnel Command that PBI is speaking about would make sense. 

I can also see someone walking into the CFRC...and saying "I think I would like to join".  Front desk staff says..."part time or full time?" and depending on your answer, you go see Sgt Bloggins (Reg Frce) or Sgt Smith (Res Force).

Not sure how it works now, but I do know there are lots of Reg Frce people that know nothing about the Reserves, and lots of Reserve's that know nothing about the Reg Frce either.  Can those people effectively answer questions about either component? I doubt it.  

Identifying and eliminating the "common bottlenecks" on the CFRC side seems to be the more important issue.  

And, equally important, is having the staffing levels in each trade, and facilities, to actually train the people that are getting in to the CF in a "reasonable amount" of time.

Can you imagine this?  You take a job at say, Canadian Tire or Walmart, and they say "well, we are hiring you, but we can't train you for 8 months, so you will be working in the back stacking boxes and taking out trash.  Yes you were hired to 'do job X', but for now, you are just a store beotch."

Right.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> (Teddy strays out of his lane)
> 
> I disagree...  The Reserves are (and should be) every bit as operational as the Regular Force these days and the entry standard has to be identical.  Creating an alternate system (or leaving the process entirely in the hands of units as it was in the "good old days") runs the serious risk of creating diferent standards, permitting abuse of the system and adding yet more fuel to the "us versus them" mentality that still can be found throughout the CF.
> 
> As for the CIC, I agree 100%.  Then again, I continue to be mystified as to why the CIC is a "component of the Reserve Force" anyway - but that's a different argument.



Teddy,

I agree with the "one standard" aspect of recruiting.  It is a CFRC, not CF Reg Frce RC.  There should be one standard, one "way", for all applicants in the CF.  IMHO, at least.  

There is a need to ride some of the bottlenecks though.  Some people have suggested removing the ERC.  I was surprised by that.  You are going to teach people how to use weapons, how to think/act tactically, or even how to blow stuff up.  Might be better knowing the person isn't off their rocker before we do that.   ;D


----------



## TCBF

"Some people have suggested removing the ERC.  I was surprised by that.  You are going to teach people how to use weapons, how to think/act tactically, or even how to blow stuff up.  Might be better knowing the person isn't off their rocker before we do that"

- The ERC won't do that alone.  Psych Screening will, but it is considered 'Un-Canadian' - the "Myth of the Superiority of The Volunteer" and all that.

- Remember:  Ten more Clayton Matchee's and we won't have an Army.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

TCBF,

It won't do it alone (take the recent Chand fellow who served 4 yrs with the PRes), but I think you agree then removing it would be overall a "bad idea"?

Now..there's a name that hasn't surfaced in a while.  1 was enough, wasn't it?

How long (or has) did the Army take to recover from that one (and a spineless MND and CDS).


----------



## GAP

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> Gap
> 
> Well, maybe, but that's not how I see it.  The CF Personnel Command that PBI is speaking about would make sense.



Most of these comments throughout this thread contain at least a germ, if not a whole lot more,  of the ultimate answer. I have spent a fair amount of time within various levels of government departments, and the planning /implementation is not pretty. I have seen it from the totally incompetent to brilliant idea/poorly implemented to way to far advanced for this pay grade.

The one constant I have seen is "If you don't know what you are doing...add another layer to....cough...help/hide...the issue. With grandiose words and say nothing rhetoric (think liberal) you can convince people you really are solving the problem.  I would like to just see it solved.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

Agreed on the solving part.  I would see the "revamping" of or addition or whatever, to a Reg Frce and Res Frce Cadre at each CFRC or SOMETHING as a positive step.

Like PBI mentioned, the CF Personnel Command, who if existant now, would be handling my CT, were in place, I would not be using up time/cycles of the MCC at the CFRC.

That makes sense to me.  One body that overseas the "HR" management of current serving members...and a seperate one (CFRG) that deals with "new people".


----------



## GAP

Excuse my ignorance, but you mean it isn't now?  Really, that doesn't make sense...two totally different sets of problems and issues.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

Well, I have "limited" knowledge on such things as ADM - HR (Mil) BUT I do know that...to CT from the Reserve's to the Regular Force, I am now another "rookie" who's file is at CFRC...sorta makes you (me atleast) wonder why the military is sending a Class B (read full time Reservist) to the Recruiting Center to switch to Regular Force.  Well, me it does.


----------



## Kirkhill

> I disagree...  The Reserves are (and should be) every bit as operational as the Regular Force these days and the entry standard has to be identical.  Creating an alternate system (or leaving the process entirely in the hands of units as it was in the "good old days") runs the serious risk of creating diferent standards, permitting abuse of the system and adding yet more fuel to the "us versus them" mentality that still can be found throughout the CF.



Teddy, if you can stray from your lane I hope you'll allow me to step right out of mine.

I don't believe that the Reservist should be subjected to the same clearances and standards as the Reg Force soldier.  I think there should be two classes of reservists.  There already are.  The trained and the untrained.

When you look at the profiles of the people on this board what stands out to me is how many of the senior posters started out as Militiamen/Reservists and then transferred/tried to transfer to the Regs.  Why didn't these people go straight to the regs in the first place?  Could it be because our society knows so little of military life and culture that that is just too big a step for most?

The old system of bringing a Reservist through the door, doing a perfunctory medical, attesting him, slapping a hat on his head and set of coveralls on his back then doubling him around the parade square for a bit and, with any luck take him down to the ranges had a number of advantages.

It was relatively cheap. It let the recruit-candidate get a look inside the system and make a better decision on whether this was the life for them,  whether or not they were up to the demands of the trade.  It also let the system get a look at the candidate and decide if it was worth investing the system's time and money in doing a comprehensive medical, a security clearance beyond Restricted, and in sending him on course to receive intensive training.  

Many folks that came in this way voted with their feet and just stopped showing up.  At the same time many others found that they wanted more and the discipline and bullshyte were all part of the process.

Most importantly the process engaged potential applicants from a society that knows little or nothing of the realities of soldiering.  

Its like fishing. Public Affairs - dangles  the bright shiny lure.   The system knows how to reel them in - that just takes muscle.  But the art of fishing is in knowing when to jerk on the line and how hard to tug to set the hook.  The Reserves offer one method of setting the hook softly.


----------



## couchcommander

I've already stated my opinion on this topic - if you want a strong reserve you need to make it accessible to the average Canadian.

Being gone for weeks at a time for training is not conducive to this. Most people simply cannot, despite their desires, take the time required to do this. This I am sure on. 

As I said before, if it was possible for me to receive all of my training during evenings and weekends you'd see me at the recruiting center before the holidays. 

I personally don't think you need to dumb it down or slap a hat 'em and send 'em off to the ranges (but military training is far out of my lane so extremely IMO) - I think a system of regional training centers easily accessable by major urban centers for weekend ex's and in town training during the week *could* provide at the very least the standardized system of training that Teddy desires - though of course I wouldn't expect the troops to be A number one - but some sacrifices have to be made IMO. 

Once again... IMHO.


----------



## Kirkhill

couchcommander, 

the regional training centre is not a bad idea.  That was the original idea behind Meaford.  It was supposed to be one of a number of MTSCs across the country (Militia Training and Support Centres).  The problem - from what I can gather - is that as planned they were too few and too widely dispersed to do any good.  Why set up Meaford when Borden was just about as close?

At the same time there is the question of what constitutes necessary training and what needs to be conducted where.  People keep talking about needing to get out into the field to conduct good training - but that is for individuals who already know something about army life.

Most, at least in my day, early individual training, could quite easily be done in the existing armouries in classrooms and on the parade square, because that is what most of the instruction required.

How to wear the uniform, to stand at attention, to march, to salute, how to salute.....
CFAOs, Hygiene, First Aid
Weapons handling and characteristics
Organization
Tactical movements
Voice procedures......

Driving and 1st Halt maintenance could be taught from the armouries on civilian streets.  Tactical driving is another matter entirely.

Heck they even taught the elements of rappeling from the balcony in the armouries

All this and much, much more

Individual training at existing armouries, given qualified and motivated instructors is quite possible.   There is enough material there to keep the average new entry busy long enough for him to lose that glazed look associated with wondering what hit him.   At least the first militia-year of training.  In the meantime he hasn't learned anything that is damaging to national security.

It was the second year that things became difficult.  Those that haven't quit because they don't like it probably wanted to go on course over the summer. Were the courses available to all that wanted them.  In a lot of cases two to six to ten  weeks of 24-7 training (depending on what courses and programmes were on offer) on top of what they learned at the armouries was enough to set them on the path to becoming a good soldier.  For others they determined that it wasn't for them and again left.  

Those that stayed wanted something more challenging and those that didn't find it became cynical and quit.   But the challenges come with increasingly technical training which can't be provided by local instructors, or training that needs manoevre areas.  Those are hard to come by and are expensive.

But by this time the Army has got a sense of the individual, can do the detailed clearances and send those individuals along for the training that ultimately will make them useful in Afghanistan.  Some will opt to go on to the regs.  Some will be available to come back to the reserves as instructors.


This Tory promise of 100/400 Battalions and "permanent" military garrisons in cities gave me hope that there might be more of the Windsor type Armouries in the offing - places where you could get something more than what we used to be able to offer and more along the lines of what you seem to be suggesting.  

PS - For those that might/might not be designing those armouries make sure to include a rockwall and a rappeling platform along with the ranges.


----------



## couchcommander

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> But by this time the Army has got a sense of the individual, can do the detailed clearances and send those individuals along for the training that ultimately will make them useful in Afghanistan.  Some will opt to go on to the regs.  Some will be available to come back to the reserves as instructors.




Just a dumb question in this regard though - is this necessarily the ultimate purpose of a reservist? What about simply having a group of trained individuals able to respond to domestic needs and/or be quickly mobilized if the excrement hits the fan? 

Do really only want the reserves to be a big force generation mechaism for foreign op task forces? 

...once again dumb question


----------



## Kirkhill

Not a dumb question - this is not necessarily the ultimate purpose of the reservist.  I would agree with 





> simply having a group of trained individuals able to respond to domestic needs and/or be quickly mobilized if the excrement hits the fan


.  And I would suggest that if that is all the reservist wants to be then the type of training that is available locally with the occasional field ex may be all that is necessary.

However, many reservists want something more.  They discover that they want to be part of something like Afghanistan.  That they are willing to make the commitment to the task.  At the same time the Army has had a good look at the individual and has time to assess everything from abilities, to eagerness, to security risks to fitness, AND, if necessary decide whether this individual warrants waivers for deficiencies like allergies, lasik surgery, medication, past records, etc etc.

At the same time the reserves have created a local, disciplined, willing force capable of coming to the aid of the government and the community in time of crisis.  

The Reserves should not be seen only as a route to the Regs, nor should it be seen as the only route to the Regs.  But people many people might see a military contribution solely in terms of joining the Regs and immediately facing the prospect of Afghanistan.  Those may not be in the majority.  Many others may wish to contribute, like yourself, at a lower level initially, maybe only.  But some of those ultimately become comfortable with the institution, more trusting of it, and more willing to volunteer for more trying duties.


----------



## navymich

couchcommander said:
			
		

> Just a dumb question in this regard though - is this necessarily the ultimate purpose of a reservist? What about simply having a group of trained individuals able to respond to domestic needs and/or be quickly mobilized if the excrement hits the fan?
> 
> Do really only want the reserves to be a big force generation mechaism for foreign op task forces?
> 
> ...once again dumb question



If you look at the Naval Reservists, there are many employed full-time to man the MCDV's (usually 10 ships manned at one time with 25-30 core crew each is 250-300 reservists right there), not to mention Port Security Sections, short-term OJT contracts etc.  Besides Operational taskings overseas and such, what is available for an Air or Army reservist full-time?




			
				Kirkhill said:
			
		

> When you look at the profiles of the people on this board what stands out to me is how many of the senior posters started out as Militiamen/Reservists and then transferred/tried to transfer to the Regs.  Why didn't these people go straight to the regs in the first place?  Could it be because our society knows so little of military life and culture that that is just too big a step for most?



Personally, I joined the reserves for the fun of it one summer during high school.  I ended up enjoying it so much that I stayed.  Between a civilian job, school and later on, the occasional full-term contract, I didn't even think of transferring to RegF.  It is only now, after 4 years continuous Class C posted to a ship that I have decided to move on to a career vice a job.  This is something I have decided on my own, and I know that many others currently in NavRes are making this same decision.  The reasons vary from wanting a career, to wanting a change, to having used the reserves as a "stepping stone" (checking it out, see if they like it), to being completely fed up with life as a Naval Reservist, etc.  But I too wonder if they were ever told the other options available to them when they first enrolled.  Being a high school student, I never was.  But then again, I was processed almost completely through my home unit, only going to CFRC for the CFAT and interview.


----------



## Hot Lips

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> Well, I have "limited" knowledge on such things as ADM - HR (Mil) BUT I do know that...to CT from the Reserve's to the Regular Force, I am now another "rookie" who's file is at CFRC...sorta makes you (me atleast) wonder why the military is sending a Class B (read full time Reservist) to the Recruiting Center to switch to Regular Force.  Well, me it does.


Because I am going Regs that's why...
 :rofl: :nana:

HL


----------



## GUNS

Way back when the Dead Sea wasn't sick, all recruitment for Reserves was done at the unit level. You were in uniform and doing training before your doc.'s reached HQ. This unit recruitment was cancelled due to $$$$. Maybe they should re-visit it again with modern day improvements.


----------



## Kirkhill

GUNS said:
			
		

> Way back when the Dead Sea wasn't sick



I seem to remember that day...... Wasn't in the newspapers?


----------



## pbi

I joined the Militia in 1974 under the "good old" system. It was a shambles, and I can tell you from direct personal experience in each case that we got in some people who were:

-mentally deficient;

-under age (and I mean, like, 15 years old...)

-marginally literate;

-had questionable criminal backgrounds; and

-had medical conditions that were not ony blatantly obvious but were debilitating (ie: acne so hideous that the person could not carry a radio set or wear web gear and a small pack without literally dripping pus.)

among others. And this was recruiting in the GTA!! IMHO this rubbish was the direct result of the very poorly done unit-run recruiting, with largely untrained and poorly supervised recruit processing staff, and with HUGE influence exerted by COs on whether or not people got in and then were kept during recruit training. I lived that for eight years: as a recruit, as a recruit instructor, and as a unit recruiter.

The answer IMHO is absolutely NOT to go back into that swamp, ever. The Army Reserve needs and deserves better, and so does Canada.The  answer is to make the system work properly, which it can do. Unfortunately, this requires constant pressure from the highest levels of the Army (I'm talking Area Comd/CLS) on the CFRG, which up until very recently has been a notoriously unresponsive and turf-defending beast. However, if some of these changes come into being, we may be quite surprised, to say the least.

If we want more volunteer first responders, then my suggestion is to spend more money on recruiting and training for the variuos volunteer fire depts, the Red Cross, and maybe consider re-establishing Civil Defense. Don't focus the Army Reserve on that alone. Don't do it.

BTW: from what I understand PersCom will not be "another layer": it will take the existing pers activities, incl CFRG, CDA, CFRS, padres, DCBA, and a bunch of others related to pers admin/pers sp and group them under an actual commander with powers of command, not some loose staff network. The two officers at the top of this, MGen Skidmore and BGen Semianiw, are both Army officers, and pretty sharp characters. It should be most interesting to see what happens.

Cheers


----------



## Echo9

I can back up pbi's claim.  At a former unit, we had a guy who was colourblind, illiterate, innumerate and generally out of shape (although I must say, his bench press was impressive).  This is for an engineer unit.  He got through because the recruiter at the time was corrupt and wanted numbers over quality.

Clearly, with the direction that things are going in, that cannot stand.  Unit level recruiting cannot be successful unless there is a strong quality control element retained by the CFRCs.  The only real gains that you get from unit recruiting is the increase in manpower gained by decentralization, and more importantly, the motivation that comes from knowing that you are responsible for your own destiny, rather than simply being accountable to a faceless target number.  Those are significant, but both have downsides.

Interestingly enough, reading through the RoD from the last CLS review of LFRR, it was noted that the CDS has given the CFRG the following processing targets:
- 30% of applicants completed in 1 week
- 40% in 1 month
- 30% longer than 1 month.

I will be interested in seeing how they do it- it will be a major shock to the system.  Realistically, they'll likely need to bring in some industrial engineering analysis that I'm not sure they currently possess in order to eliminate the queue time that's inherent in the system right now.   (btw, for any CFRG lurkers, I'm an industrial engineer by training- if you want any help, send me a PM).

All of that said, something that I can see so far is that the quality of personnel posted to the recruiting function is getting better- much better, and that I'm actually pretty confident that the results will follow.


----------



## Hot Lips

Echo9 said:
			
		

> I can back up pbi's claim.  At a former unit, we had a guy who was colourblind, illiterate, innumerate and generally out of shape (although I must say, his bench press was impressive).  This is for an engineer unit.  He got through because the recruiter at the time was corrupt and wanted numbers over quality.
> 
> Clearly, with the direction that things are going in, that cannot stand.  Unit level recruiting cannot be successful unless there is a strong quality control element retained by the CFRCs.  The only real gains that you get from unit recruiting is the increase in manpower gained by decentralization, and more importantly, the motivation that comes from knowing that you are responsible for your own destiny, rather than simply being accountable to a faceless target number.  Those are significant, but both have downsides.
> 
> *Interestingly enough, reading through the RoD from the last CLS review of LFRR, it was noted that the CDS has given the CFRG the following processing targets:
> - 30% of applicants completed in 1 week
> - 40% in 1 month
> - 30% longer than 1 month.*
> I will be interested in seeing how they do it- it will be a major shock to the system.  Realistically, they'll likely need to bring in some industrial engineering analysis that I'm not sure they currently possess in order to eliminate the queue time that's inherent in the system right now.   (btw, for any CFRG lurkers, I'm an industrial engineer by training- if you want any help, send me a PM).
> 
> *All of that said, something that I can see so far is that the quality of personnel posted to the recruiting function is getting better- much better, and that I'm actually pretty confident that the results will follow.*


 How many potential quality recruits do you think are lost due to frustration and the processing times...
If the CDS would like the above mentioned processing times...there would have to be some additional resources put in place would there not?  And if selection boards sit every 6 weeks (I believe that's what Kincanucks reported on another thread) than that would, as well, hinder the process and require change...yes?

HL


----------



## GAP

OK...lets correct some of my misunderstanding...

 Pers admin is being split off for CFRA? correct?

 Better Timelines for Recruits are being instituted? correct?

There will be two people in charge. One HR one Recruiting. correct?

Standards are not being lowered, just being reevaluated. correct?

what else did I miss?


----------



## tomahawk6

Look recruiting is not rocket science. Its really a two step process find someone who wants to be in the military and then test/process the applicant. If step two is inefficient then the process gets bogged down. I think the biggest improvement to your system would be to have 1 day of testing both medical/written and then by computer lock in the candidate's schooling dates. One day and most recruits are set to go. The security clearance process is pretty basic and doesnt bog down the system.
Recruits going into sensitive specialties get a more thorough screening as they will be working in a secret environment.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

I do like the idea of CFRG handling the "recruiting" aspect...and this PerCom handling people for CTs and OTs and the like.


----------



## navymich

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> The security clearance process is pretty basic and doesnt bog down the system.



I wish T6, I really wish.  I can't speak for certain about the enhanced reliabitlity check for recruiting, but I know that the system itself is extremely bogged down for initial and renewal clearances, especially when you get to Level III.  What kind of timeline is there down your way for them?


----------



## tomahawk6

There are jobs that do not require a security clearance - infantry for example. They will do a criminal background check and if nothing serious pops up the recruit is in. For those requiring Confidential/Secret 1-3 months and Top Secret can take 4-12 months.The more there is to investigate the longer it takes. For a kid out of high school who hasnt traveled abroad it wouldnt take long.


----------



## Kirkhill

pbi and Echo9:

I understand what you are saying about the quality of the recruits and the civil defence concerns.  

But what I feel is being missed in the push to a highly qualified, professional army, focused on expeditionary tasks is the separation of the army from the people.  This has been going on for a long while in Canada.  Some might say it has been the policy of some governments. 

I don't think that the current level of interest in Afghanistan is either likely to be long lasting nor does it seem to have created a massive change in the attitude of the population towards joining.  Yes numbers are up, but I still don't see queues outside of CFRCs or outside armouries.

I think you run the risk of suffering the same fate as professional sports.  It used to be people played sports locally and organized local teams.  Their best players formed local all-star teams and took on other towns. Towns banded their best and took on Provinces.  Provinces banded to take on nations.  Everybody in the country had a stake in that team. They knew somebody personally that worked  alongside them or went to school with their sister.  The Nation really got caught up in the game.

The quality of the game was good but not great and the quality of talent in the local recruiting pool too variable so the owners of local businesses start offering jobs to outsiders to attract talent, then cash and ultimately you have a fully professional game.  The quality of the game definitely improved.  But what was lost was that sense of local connection....

When your local team is filled with Russians and Ghanaians, Indians and Dutchmen, none of whom live in your community, they are effectively mercenaries, while you may admire their skills you don't see yourself on the field with them.  This ultimately leads to declining attendance at sporting events, indicating a loss of support by the community.  It also leads to a reduction in the talent pool so eventually the quality of the recruit to the system decreases.

The cost of maintaining a viable sports franchise is engaging people at a young age, and having them play, regardless of skill levels.  As they grow older then they find outlets to play at different levels of skill.  The best players go to "elite teams".  But they all are connected within the community.  The entire community is invested in their games.  The entire community shows up at their games to support them.

The cost of running a successful franchise includes running a successful farm system.  A farm system that not only includes Jr As that will send some players to the NHL but also Sr As for players that couldn't make the NHL or didn't want to make that much of a commitment.

The more that you withdraw into a cadre of NHL superstars, the more you run the risk of declining attendance and a reducing pool of recruits. 

You may not want the army to be associated with Civil defence and out of condition volunteers however that will expand the recruiting pool.  Don't separate yourselves from the first responders.  Integrate those people inclined to support the community into the ranks.  Encourage them to get into condition to meet more challenging tasks.  Expand the numbers that understand and support the institution of the army, that will sell the institution.

Otherwise you risk becoming "Them" not "Us".

Yes it is a cost, an expensive cost.  But if you don't create such a system then you leave too great a jump for out of shape, peace-loving, Nintendo playing civilians to contemplate when you are looking for volunteers for Afghanistan.  You need to create a ramp with a number of stops along the way where many can see themselves in uniform, contributing in manners that they find appropriate and that allow you to make the best use possible of them.  Out of that number you will more likely find increased numbers of motivated and trusting individuals willing and able to sign up for Regular duties.

But first you have to engage and accept the support from the community that the community wants to give you - no matter if he is an earnest 16 year old with pus dripping down his back.  It may not have been sightly but he sure was demonstrating a degree of commitment that is hard to find and difficult to create.  Acne comes and goes.   Is that radioman still carrying a radio?


----------



## Hot Lips

navymich said:
			
		

> I wish T6, I really wish.  I can't speak for certain about the enhanced reliability check for recruiting, but I know that the system itself is extremely bogged down for initial and renewal clearances, especially when you get to Level III.  What kind of timeline is there down your way for them?


Mich I don't think that is the only log jam here though in our system do you?
There seem to be a number of issues that seem to slow the process...
I went ten months and hadn't gotten into a Res unit...I had to chase the recruiter down all the time for the next phase of the process...finally I got fed up and flipped my application...I am not getting any younger and I do feel I am qualified (civilian) to do the job I seek...don't know...still trying to wait patiently

HL


----------



## navymich

No HL, definitely not the only log jam at all.  Clearances are just my own little bone of contention (or one of them anyway).  

For some, clearances are the log jam, for others they aren't.  Nobody seems to have the same problems as someone else, some have them all, and the lucky ones have none.  But hang in there, and keep a stiff upper (hot) lip.    Patience is good (as opposed to the patients that you are used to working with...LOL).  And, just to add one more cliche, good things come to those who wait...and wait....and wait.....


----------



## Hot Lips

Yes, my sentiments exactly
Oh and another cliche...waiters get good tips  
I have been nothing but pleased so far with my application when I flipped it Regs (albeit still waiting for "the call")
My frustrations were with the Res application, that I had had in previously.

HL


----------



## pbi

Kirkhill: you are right to be concerned about the increasing demands being placed on the Army Res over the last decade. I lived this 2002-2005 in 38 CBG, where I was amazed and quite in awe of what we are now asking of Res soldiers, esp the leaders (esp the senior leaders), if they try to do all that is set before them. We are not alone: I know that about two years ago the COS (appointment title...?) of the US ArmyRes expressed similar concerns about the impact on his force, and I have heard the same from some of the folks in 34ID (USARNG).

The parallel I would draw is somewhat different: I compare it to the volunteer firefighter as Canada's population grows and pushes out into the "ru-burban" areas that encircle most of our cities today, out beyond the immediate suburban zone. (Most fire fighters and fire depts in Canada, like the US, are either wholly or partly volunteer) As the population goes up, so does the number of shopping malls, industrial plants, gas stations, hospitals, car accidents, medical calls and hazmat incidents. The VFDs must respond effectively to all these situations, as quickly as possible, with enough training and experience that they do not become liabilities themselves. But, they have only a very limited time to train (often less than a typical Res unit). As well, as commuting suburbanites replace the local folks, the sense of community and the desire to serve as VFFs declines and it becomes harder and harder to recruit.How do they beat this dilemma?

The sad fact is that they usually don't, and gradually, growing municipalities are forced to bring in career firefighters to take over. A very fine and honourable tradition thus bites the dust, one VFD at a time.

But nobody suggests that standards be lowered: either VFDs can protect their communities or they can't. They may be great community organizations, but if they cannot do what is required they are a waste of money as far as the town is concerned. And here is my point: this is the same principle with the Army Res: it exists primarily to fulfil a military need. Other stuff is important, but secondary. Now, IMHO the Army Res (and, in fact, the Army in general...) does a much better and more proactive job of keeping in touch with  Canadians than we did when I was a Res soldier back in the 1970s.  We can still do that, but we can't make the perceived need to have more local citizens involved somehow take priority over a Res that has military utility. And, again IMHO, our Res today has much greater military utility  than it did when I joined it in 1974. In those days we really were off on our own, with no real place in the nation's military planning.

So, I go back to my earlier point: fix the system, in as draconian a manner as necessary. Use smart ideas, and contract out functions where makes sense. But don't try to turn back the clock to some imagined "golden days". I served eight years in those "golden days", and IMHO they weren't.

Cheers


----------



## Kirkhill

I understand you pbi, and I agree about "golden days".  I lived 4 years of those days and ultimately made the opposite decision to yourself as a result of those lumps and bumps.  

One of the biggest complaints that I had was that as a junior subby I was given a class in MOI and then immediately tasked with conducting hygiene and adm lessons.  I instructed my first class on the Browning 9mm before I put my first 9mm round down range.  The first time that I did a complete strip and assemble on an FNC1 for time was on my Proficiency in Weapons Training Test.  In four years in the Reserves I may have put a total of 400 rds down range in all calibres, and this included time on MITCP courses and an interrupted Phase III course at Gagetown (interrupted by my Father's death).  I also did my share of administration, orderly officer, manning recruiting stations and conducting a recruit platoon.  I am fully aware of the lack of gold in those days.

I said on another thread that with 2 weeks and 1000 rounds I guessed that would be sufficient to create a useful rifleman.  I was challenged on that point.  That amount of attention is a darn sight more than it ever got in my time in and judging from the reports from other posters it seems little has changed for many units.

Having said that, I learned enough of weapons handling skills I am comfortable I could still strip and assemble an FN C1, prepare a lesson plan, find my way through CFAOs, prepare orders using SMESC format (I still rely on that for planning in my professional life), operate an FM radio and remember proper Voice Procedures, drive a vehicle across country and conduct first halt maintenance on it.  And this after damnear 25 years out.  

This is not a plea to reinstate fat old duffers like myself.  This is to point out that the training sticks.  And even if bodies don't parade on a regular basis there are occasions in the life of the community where people CAN'T live their normal lives, WANT to get things back to normal as soon as possible and are looking for direction and to be organized.  If they have some training and know where to congregate then they can be put to use for as long as the crisis lasts.  And the more hands that you can organize and put to use the sooner the crisis will past and the community can get back to its normal non-military life.

You said that after 8 years you decided you had had enough and joined the Regs.  Why didn't you join the Regs in the first place?  Why did you join the Reserves? From my stand point the system worked.  It attracted both you and me into the system via the Reserves (I had actually previously been turned down for MARS because of V4 eyesight - I understand they wanted me to be able to see where I was going when steering the boat - Who knew?).  In your case you discovered that your attachment to the profession was great enough that you decided to move onwards and upwards and make it your career.  Great.  In my case you got 4 years service out of me - I trained, poorly perhaps, I can't answer that but the candidates passed their required proficiency tests, 20 more troops - perhaps some of them decided to go Reg as well - and you got a life time supporter of the military that now is trying to figure out how he can assist again.    

And I can guarantee that if somebody had come calling saying "we need your services", there would have been no hesitation.

I say that the system worked.

Keep in mind that even those much derided Boy Scouts started out as a means of using available un-trained manpower on military taskings at he siege of Mafeking.  They continued as a way to bring street urchins into the military fold, give them a sense of themselves and some discipline and set them up for a military career if they chose it.  Some went to the Regs and then the Reserves.  Some went to the Territorials.  But ultimately you had a military friendly society that joined in large numbers to fight WWI, where people saw themselves as soldiers, as opposed to the days of Lobsterbacks and "Chuck 'im out the brute".  

There wasn't much wrong with that system.  In fact the problem is that the opponents of military forces, the people that saw lives lost in massive numbers in WWI, fear the replication of that system most of all.  They fear recreating those conditions that lead to that loss of life.  But that is to blame the saw, not the carpenter, the rifle, not the shooter.  In losing that system we have also lost the connection of the citizen to the state, and the army.

That rotten system that you lived through found you the army and the army found you.  A fact that I am grateful for.

Cheers, sir.


----------



## pbi

> I instructed my first class on the Browning 9mm before I put my first 9mm round down range.  The first time that I did a complete strip and assemble on an FNC1 for time was on my Proficiency in Weapons Training Test.



Ha. Sounds very familiar. The first time I ever saw a Karl G was when in 1975, as a Pte, I was required to prepare an MOI period on it as part of my JNCO course.

I think I understand your position. My suggestion would be that we make better use of the SupRes, but I really don't know how this could be made to work: up until now IMHO the SupRes system  has been a shambles of limited use to anybody.

I still fear the results of an over-emphasis on domestic operations on our Army Res: I see it as a slippery slope, with the Res once again ending up utterly marginalized by the rest of the Army, and a couple of decades of slow and painful progress down the tube.

But I respect your point of view.

Cheers


----------



## Echo9

Kirkhill- Something else that you should be aware of that should put a bit of a damper on the concept of a lesser tier recruiting system for reserves is that the CDS has also given the order that the CT process be streamlined.  What I've heard is that the CT essentially becomes little more than writing up a posting message.  With that kind of mobility, the drive for comparable standards is going to get stronger and stronger.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

Maybe the directive is to MAKE the CT process that simple, but it sure isn't there at this point (currently undergoing a CT).


----------



## Kirkhill

I guess what I am getting at Echo 9 is, wouldn't it be possible to build the security wall Inside the Armouries rather than Outside.  By all means maintain the same standards to cross that wall, fitness, security clearances, etc so that CTs by qualified Militia/Reservists were simplified.

The people I am really getting at are those people that show up at the Armouries or the CFRC expressing an interest.  Rather than leave them cooling their heals for a few months and risk losing them why not bring them in immediately and keep them engaged doing Basic Training. They'll find out if they like it.  The army'll find out if they like them.  

At the end of this local training, after they have passed their proficiency tests, they will also find out if they have passed their medicals and security clearances and be allowed to advance to the next level and gain admission to the ranks and to the JRs mess.  I understand it would cost money to train washouts - but it doesn't really take that much more effort to instruct 30 than it does to instruct 10.  Teacher's unions notwithstanding.  .


----------



## Kirkhill

And pbi - you are right.  Trying to figure out how to make better use of the Sup Res system is likely to be effective in the long term.


----------



## ricksherry

My two sons tried to join the reserves in Montreal where they live. They were told to come back in six months. They have now returned and are told they will have to do it all over again. This is time-consuming for no reason as they have already entered everything, done everything and only had the final interview left to do - what gives? They were accepted basically on everything else and only had to wait for the final part of it, they were also told that they would have to pass the physical, which, they were told would be done in a  gym such as Nautilus and if they didn't pass right away would have to pay 35 bucks to do it again because of it being a civilian gym. I know I am getting older but when I joined we were tested at the Unit and didn't have to pay. They are not working in high paying jobs but are patriotic and have come from a family who has served - and proudly I might add. Now even with their good school marks, physical condition etc, they are being "brushed off". This is the time to sign them up - when they are "gung-ho" and ready for it - not two years down the line when they have other things they have taken up because the Military keep putting them on hold. The worse part is that I have told them how good it would be for them etc and now look what happens! This makes me angry.


----------



## Springroll

I agree BW Rickard Sherry...and I feel that is a major flaw in the current system that needs to be fixed immediately. 
It goes back to what I said before, and even what others have stated in this thread, the CF is losing good recruits over the time delays.

When I first went in and spoke to a recruiter I was told the timeline was 3-6 months, and here I am less than a month away from it being a year since my full app was put in, and have not received a call. 

If the merit system is based on how well the applicant has done why is it that someone, like myself, who qual'd for all NCM's trades and has no med issues is still waiting? Even with college under my belt, is doesn't seem to help out at all. I knwo there are many others with similar stories on these very boards. 

I know my husband's frustrated at how long this is taking compared to his recruitment just over 9 years ago when it took 4 months from start to finish for him, and that was for a fresh out of high school boy with nothing else but a dream to be in the military.

The systems needs to be revamped....seriously revamped, and soon.


----------



## kincanucks

_If the merit system is based on how well the applicant has done why is it that someone, like myself, who qual'd for all NCM's trades and has no med issues is still waiting? Even with college under my belt, is doesn't seem to help out at all. _ 

Well lets see:

You could qualify for all the occupations and still not get a high CFAT score and not get high marks for it.
You could have college and have average marks which would result in a low score.
You could have had an average or below average interview and got a low score.

It doesn't take a high score to get merit listed and if you are going for a trade that is competitive you might not ever get selected because:

Someone else also qualified for all the occupations and got a very high CFAT score.
Someone else also completed college with a very high averages.
Someone else had a very good interview and received a high score.

CFAT score plus academics is marked out of 30 and interview is marked out of 60 for a total out of 90.  Most people sitting on the merit list for any occupation have an average of 46 so the strong ones will get the jobs.  46 might get you in the combat arms but probably not in RMS.

_It goes back to what I said before, and even what others have stated in this thread, the CF is losing good recruits over the time delays._

It goes back to what I asked you before:

Oh please provide me the names or even the numbers of these "some good recruits" that we are "losing" because of the recruiting process.  That is a common rallying cry around here especially for people who are being held up because they don't meet the medical standards, are counselled out for drugs, can't pass a simple aptitude test or can't meet the basic physical standards or _are generally weak applicants_.


----------



## couchcommander

kincanucks said:
			
		

> Oh please provide me the names or even the numbers of these "some good recruits" that we are "losing" because of the recruiting process.  That is a common rallying cry around here especially for people who are being held up because they don't meet the medical standards, are counselled out for drugs, can't pass a simple aptitude test or can't meet the basic physical standards or _are generally weak applicants_.



This is very interesting - as I was under the impression that the wait for applicants to run through the system and end up on course was indeed rather long (both from this site and personal experiences conveyed to me). 

I am pleased to hear otherwise. If you don't mind, could you provide me with the average processing time of sucessful applicants?


----------



## TCBF

"The systems needs to be revamped....seriously revamped, and soon."

- So:  a young soldier is two minutes late for parade - charged.

- Well, how about - a recruiter screws up paperwork which does more damage to our mission than the young soldier being two minutes late for parade... CHARGE.

- It' s about time people realized that discipline is a CANADIAN FORCES policy, not just a combat arms unit one.

- - Sort out the slackers and non-hackers who've hidden themselves in that big bloated bureaucracy and CULL THE HERD.


----------



## enfield

To add to what kincanucks has stated:

The CF has similar processing times, for new recruits, as similar Federal agencies - CSIS and the RCMP both expect 6-12 months to process an applicant. The CF does not stand out in this area, and it seems apparent that the military (and CFRG) has little control over some requirements. 

The two bottlenecks that I think could perhaps be streamlined are the medical process and the Pre-Assessmet Security check. Those two, especially the security check (not the ERC, the one for people who have not lived in Canada for 10 years) seem to add the most time. With modern population movement and increasingly global citizens, requiring everyone who, no matter the circumstances, has left the country for more than 180 days to wait a year or more is wasteful. 

From my point of view, I find that the processing time most effects Reserve applicants, since they are mostly younger and simply looking for a part-time job, not a career. Many have lost interest or moved on by the time they are ready to be sworn in. I think Three, Six, or Twelve months waiting is justifiable for a career, but not for a summer and part-time job. However, lowering the standards for the Reserves is _not_ the solution.


----------



## kincanucks

From page six of this thread:

_There have been some changes to reduce the number of Pre-Secs currently being processed.  It may be, I repeat may be, possible for waivers to be given for people coming from one of the original NATO countries (those from the USA still require a FBI check), people coming to Canada at <16 years old and don't have any immediate relatives out of country, people who already hold a a Canadian security clearance from another federal department, and any cases that the CO/Det Comd is worthy of risk management (people who have done missionary work, etc.).  All on-going pre-secs will be reviewed to determine if they can be waived.  Note that this waiver policy will be applied on a case by case basis._

The medical process will only be made faster if two things happen together:  1) The CF increases the size of the medical staff at CFRG and 2) The wait times for civilian MDs/Specialists is significantly reduced. 1) can be done and 2) who knows.  However, this process has gotten a lot faster and unless the applicants has serious medical issues the medicals come back very fast.

_I find that the processing time most effects Reserve applicants, since they are mostly younger and simply looking for a part-time job, not a career. Many have lost interest or moved on by the time they are ready to be sworn in. I think Three, Six, or Twelve months waiting is justifiable for a career, but not for a summer and part-time job._

The problem is attributable to several factors: in some cases the reserve unit does not pressure the applicant to get their applications in as soon as possible and will sometimes sit on applications waiting for the applicant to provide further information instead of getting on their asses to get it in; the applicant takes too long to provide the information to complete their applications and/or applies too late in the year to make it for summer training and ends up waiting for the fall; some reserve units do not have full-time or dedicated recruiting staff and even if an applicant applies on time and with a complete application there is no one to accept or other staff will file the application away;  CFRC/Ds have other priorities which include ROTP, Reg F DEO and NCMs; some CFRC/Ds deal with several reserve units in their AORs and may have to juggle the processing slots between all of them and some units may not get as many slots as they wish; some CFRC/Ds don't have the staff to deal with the workload; there are not enough medical resources to deal with the workload in CFRG; and Brigades and Headquarters consistently play with numbers and some units, although they have the applicants, will end up losing training slots and the applicant loses out.  Are there solutions to these issues?  Yes  but they may be too expensive for some to handle.  Hire full-time recruiters for every unit, assign strict deadlines for reserve applications: both for the applicant and for the reserve unit to get them into the CFRC/Ds, hire more recruiting staff and/or allocate the recruiting resources from less productive CFRC/Ds to the more busier ones.

The optimal time to get any applicant into the CF should be less than three months and the average is now around less than six months.  Again the time taken is dependant on several factors not only including the trade selected but what baggage the applicant brings to the counter.


----------



## Springroll

kincanucks said:
			
		

> It goes back to what I asked you before:
> 
> Oh please provide me the names or even the numbers of these "some good recruits" that we are "losing" because of the recruiting process.  That is a common rallying cry around here especially for people who are being held up because they don't meet the medical standards, are counselled out for drugs, can't pass a simple aptitude test or can't meet the basic physical standards or _are generally weak applicants_.



I can not give you names and numbers to recruits who have given up after a long wait, but I am willing to bet they do exist. I would not be able to have access to that information, but I am curious if you would have access to the percentage of recruits who get called and turn it down. Does the CFRC ask the rercruit why they are no longer interested? 

IIRC, there was a CBC news story about a year an a half ago about a young man who was trying to join and was getting the run around by the local CFRC. He had been waiting for quite sometime after all testing was done. After the lengthy wait(I can not remember exactly how long) he said he was done waiting and gave up. 

I have waited 14 years to be able to have the chance to join, but I, along with many other members on here, are getting very discouraged. 



			
				kincanucks said:
			
		

> The optimal time to get any applicant into the CF should be less than three months and the average is now around less than six months.  Again the time taken is dependant on several factors not only including the trade selected but what baggage the applicant brings to the counter.



What exactly does the CFRC consider baggage? Are we talking criminal, financial, a family?


----------



## aesop081

Springroll said:
			
		

> I can not give you names and numbers to recruits who have given up after a long wait, but I am willing to bet they do exist. I would not be able to have access to that information, but I am curious if you would have access to the percentage of recruits who get called and turn it down. Does the CFRC ask the rercruit why they are no longer interested?
> 
> IIRC, there was a CBC news story about a year an a half ago about a young man who was trying to join and was getting the run around by the local CFRC. He had been waiting for quite sometime after all testing was done. After the lengthy wait(I can not remember exactly how long) he said he was done waiting and gave up.



Did the story indicate if he had medical issues, credit or security issues ?  Could have been a factor and i wouldnt be surpised if it had been "overlooked" by the press.



> I have waited 14 years to be able to have the chance to join, but I, along with many other members on here, are getting very discouraged.



As i remember it Springroll, *YOU* bear some of the responsibility for the delays in your case.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Springroll said:
			
		

> IIRC, there was a CBC news story about a year an a half ago about a young man who was trying to join and was getting the run around by the local CFRC. He had been waiting for quite sometime after all testing was done. After the lengthy wait(I can not remember exactly how long) he said he was done waiting and gave up.



If a delay was so common, it wouldn't be a news story now would it??  

CBC EXEC...."Alright Comrade, we need a story to discredit the military. Yea, you know that white male haven that exists just to grab our funding pot. Hmm, well if this is all ya got, I guess we will run with it. Yadda, yadda..."


----------



## Springroll

aesop081 said:
			
		

> Did the story indicate if he had medical issues, credit or security issues ?  Could have been a factor and i wouldnt be surpised if it had been "overlooked" by the press.
> 
> As i remember it Springroll, YOU bear some of the responsibility for the delays in your case.



If I recall, he had lived in canada since he was 5 or somethng to that affect. Wish i could remember more about it. 
Regardless, he gave up on wanting to join.

I fully admit that *part* of the delay was me....with good reason too.
Still doesn't make it alright to be waiting anything over 6 months to get in.
That should not be the acceptable norm.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Run down to the GM plant in Oshawa and drop your name in and see if you are employed within 6 months.......


----------



## GUNS

Speaking from experience about the Recruitment process. I know for a fact that if you have a trade that the military is in desperate need of, you will be in uniform before you know it.

I'm ex-military, who decided to join the Reserves. I had to go through the complete procedure of Recruitment because I was out of uniform to long. I happen to have my Inter-provincial ticket in Heavy Equipment Repair so there was a lot of smiles when I walked into CFRC.

I did the whole routine for enlistment and passed. Upon  passing, the Recruiter took me aside and asked me to go back into the Reg.'s instead of the Reserves. If I went Reg's, there was a substancial signing bonus and I would be in uniform within a month.

I had a very good job at the time so Reg's were not an option. Reserve's would allow me to keep my job and still spend time in uniform. After I turned down their offer of joining the Reg's, I had to wait seven months before the Reserves called me. SEVEN MONTHS.

You know where I told them to stick their job. There was this guy that applied to join the Reg's the same time as I was joining the Reserves. He told me at the end of testing that he had failed most of the tests. We were waiting for our final interview with the Recruitment Officer, when he came out he told me he was accepted. Why you may ask! He had his Masters Degree in whatever.

There are two levels of Recruitment - those the military need despertaly(trades) and those that don't(no trade)


----------



## Springroll

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Run down to the GM plant in Oshawa and drop your name in and see if you are employed within 6 months.......



Obviously that is not feasible since I live no where near Ontario.



			
				GUNS said:
			
		

> I had a very good job at the time so Reg's were not an option. Reserve's would allow me to keep my job and still spend time in uniform. After I turned down their offer of joining the Reg's, I had to wait seven months before the Reserves called me. SEVEN MONTHS.
> 
> You know where I told them to stick their job.



By the sounds of it, you were a good recruit and it is really is sad that they turned you off from re-joining.
Have you considered re-rejoining?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

I still absoloutly fail to grasp why some people think they are so important that others should jump just because they want something.

From the time I put my name in for my present occupation to the time I actually started was 14 months...........Did I whine and cry about it? No, I did something else and realized I just wasn't that important to them at the time, so bigwhoopin' deal, ....they finally called and 17 years later I'm still plying the same trade so I guess I was worth the wait. [and visa versa]


----------



## Kirkhill

> I think Three, Six, or Twelve months waiting is justifiable for a career,


 From Enfield.

Well, speaking for myself, if an employer told me that they might have a position available in 3,6 or 12 months my immediate reaction would be to politely say thankyou, inform them that I might still be interested in 3,6 or 12 months and then go look for another employer.   Funny things happen then, for example, people actually discovering that they can live without their previous dream employer and are quite happy with their new circumstances.


----------



## kincanucks

_What exactly does the CFRC consider baggage? Are we talking criminal, financial,_  in addition to medical issues, illegal drug use, poor education, etc.  

_a family?_  That is just a dumb thing to say.


----------



## Springroll

kincanucks said:
			
		

> _a family?_  That is just a dumb thing to say.



Well I don't see it as a dumb thing to say. My question was totally legitimate. We(recruits) do not know if the CFRC would consider a family "baggage"...that is why I asked. It is better to have you clarify what you were saying than to assume something that isn't true, right?
A few on here still believe the "if the army wanted you to have a wife, they would have issued you one"....also, according the the human rights commission in April 2001, there were two female CF members who felt they were discriminated because they had a family. 

_Jennifer Smith of Trenton, Ontario alleges that her employer, the Canadian Forces, discriminated against her by failing to accommodate her on the basis of marital and family status. Ms. Smith, an administrative clerk with the Forces, is married to a Forces officer. She says the Forces repeatedly turned down her requests for a co-location posting with her husband. When she did eventually receive the co-location with her husband, he was soon transferred and the Forces again refused to transfer her. 

Paula McInnis of Victoria alleges that her employer, the Department of National Defence, discriminated against her because of her sex, disability, and family and marital status and by failing to provide her with a harassment-free workplace. Ms. McInnis, who worked at DND as a technician, claims that male co-workers with less experience were sent on courses ahead of her, thus limiting her promotional opportunities. She also says her supervisor made derogatory comments about her, her husband and their family life. Ms. McInnis says that DND's managers made derogatory comments toward women and allowed the circulation of documents that were demeaning to women. _

http://www.chrc-ccdp.ca/media_room/news_releases-en.asp?id=189&content_type=2


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

according the the human rights commission in April 2001, there were two female CF members who felt  they were discriminated 

Results??........


----------



## GUNS

Bruce, sorry if I caught you at this time of the month. Mine was not a whine or complaint. I just stated the facts as they pertain to me. One will have to wonder DND's purpose in offering me a position with the Reg's, with a month start date as opposed to waiting seven months for the Reserves. Both share the same information on me, I passed all the required testing, both needed mechanics in the worst kind of way.

"Mine is not to reason why"


----------



## GUNS

One point I will like to make, if DND solves their Recruitment issue, where are they going to house all these new soldiers? Most will be single but some will have dependents. Housing in the Forces is limited for both single and married personel.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Guns,
Wasn't directing my wrath at you, just the theme in general that some people seem to have.

Folks,
We're the ones knocking on the CF's door, I don't seem to recall them knocking on mine....


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> From Enfield.
> 
> Well, speaking for myself, if an employer told me that they might have a position available in 3,6 or 12 months my immediate reaction would be to politely say thankyou, inform them that I might still be interested in 3,6 or 12 months and then go look for another employer.   Funny things happen then, for example, people actually discovering that they can live without their previous dream employer and are quite happy with their new circumstances.



For the reserves, though, its not a career but a part time job. Things needs to tighten up.

As far as the Regs, my dad wanted in after 3 years Militia service, but there were no openings for gunners. He went into the oilpatch - seismic - and stayed there for 45 years instead.  Then retired for 4 months, and went back to work at age 65, still doing seismic.  They pay well, they apparently need his services, and I think him being on the road keeps mom sane.  ;D It worked out but he always wished he had stayed with the Militia too.


----------



## kincanucks

Springroll said:
			
		

> Well I don't see it as a dumb thing to say. My question was totally legitimate. We(recruits) do not know if the CFRC would consider a family "baggage"...that is why I asked. It is better to have you clarify what you were saying than to assume something that isn't true, right?
> A few on here still believe the "if the army wanted you to have a wife, they would have issued you one"....also, according the the human rights commission in April 2001, there were two female CF members who felt they were discriminated because they had a family.
> 
> _Jennifer Smith of Trenton, Ontario alleges that her employer, the Canadian Forces, discriminated against her by failing to accommodate her on the basis of marital and family status. Ms. Smith, an administrative clerk with the Forces, is married to a Forces officer. She says the Forces repeatedly turned down her requests for a co-location posting with her husband. When she did eventually receive the co-location with her husband, he was soon transferred and the Forces again refused to transfer her.
> 
> Paula McInnis of Victoria alleges that her employer, the Department of National Defence, discriminated against her because of her sex, disability, and family and marital status and by failing to provide her with a harassment-free workplace. Ms. McInnis, who worked at DND as a technician, claims that male co-workers with less experience were sent on courses ahead of her, thus limiting her promotional opportunities. She also says her supervisor made derogatory comments about her, her husband and their family life. Ms. McInnis says that DND's managers made derogatory comments toward women and allowed the circulation of documents that were demeaning to women. _
> 
> http://www.chrc-ccdp.ca/media_room/news_releases-en.asp?id=189&content_type=2



When I say baggage I am not including family, married or not, kids, or any other issue that would contravene the Human Rights Act when considering some one for a job and it was still a dumb thing to say.  Did the CF have problems?  Of course we did but I think we have done a very good job in getting rid of the dinosaurs/regulations that perpetuated these problems.


----------



## aesop081

Springroll said:
			
		

> I fully admit that *part* of the delay was me....with good reason too.
> Still doesn't make it alright to be waiting anything over 6 months to get in.
> That should not be the acceptable norm.



i did say SOME (your PT test is what i had in mind)...i give you that much credit, no problems......just so we are clear. 

6 Months......do you know how long it takes to get a job as a intelligence officer at CSIS ?  6 months may seem a long time but its not that bad.  Should it be the norm ? not IMO but hey...you want the job or not ?

I agree with Kincanucks, the whole "losing good recruits"  thing is the rallying cry of the losers........

Those  who are ready, willing and able will see the process through.


----------



## Jaxson

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I still absolutely fail to grasp why some people think they are so important that others should jump just because they want something.
> 
> From the time I put my name in for my present occupation to the time I actually started was 14 months...........Did I whine and cry about it? No, I did something else and realized I just wasn't that important to them at the time, so bigwhoopin' deal, ....they finally called and 17 years later I'm still plying the same trade so I guess I was worth the wait. [and visa versa]



I myself, have now been waiting 10 months, going on 11, for just my criminal record check (fingerprints) to come back, and then ill have to wait longer to see how that turns out, although i am slightly discouraged that its taken this long, since i was given a timeline of 4-8months, it doesn't change the fact this is what i want to do, and to all you other people who are discouraged, if this is what you truly want to do in life.. a year... a year and half, the wait wont matter, the end result is all you care about and are focused on.

 Don't quit on your country, it isn't quitting on you.


----------



## Franko

Alright....I'll wade in here and say my piece.

*Springroll*....your quote was about a serving member and administrative problems that she encountered, not recruiting. 

Secondly, if there is a position available at the base where the posted spouse is being transferred to....the CF will accommodate the second spouse and post her as well. 

If not, too bad and he's posted IR and gets a few extra bucks because of the distance between them. I've seen both scenarios and the members involved lived with it. It's called the Army for a reason.

As for the alleged harassment she encountered.....I won't touch that.   

Now onto the whole " recruiting center turning away good recruits...."

You are applying for a job that requires a certain skill set and as such there is a screening process involved.

Got a criminal record? That just made your getting in that much more complicated.

Yes it sucks that in some cases it may take a few months....again remember, you applied to the CF and they didn't knock on your door.

There are circumstances with some perspective recruits that they will take more time than others...as do other civvy employers as was alluded to earlier.

Don't like waiting? You'll hate the CF then.

In the late 80s I had to wait about 5 months to get in to the local reserve unit...and I was checking in every 2 weeks like clock work.

When I got in back in the early 90's into the Regs I had PCFs up the wazoo....light track, Cougar driver and gunner, Recce Crewcommander, Leopard driver....the list goes on and on. My security clearances were good and up to date as well.

I waited 2 months...a long time back in those days, and remember I was already a serving member in the reserves with oodles of B Class time under my belt.

*It takes time to get in.* 

Some people get picked up right away because they have skills that are required and need filling right away....Medical Officers for instance. If an applicant comes in with a background in medicine and is a practicing doctor...think the CF will take a recruit who is " willing to learn " over the doctor?

Nope.

Regards


----------



## paracowboy

funny thing: just got a shipment of FNGs on the weekend. For shits and giggles, I asked them how long it took from application to St Jean. Average grouping was 6 - 9 months, with a few flyers. Same as me 11 years ago. Funny, that.

Seems to me, chances are good that if you ain't gettin' in within that time frame, the problem may just *possibly* reside with you somewhere. Maybe you chose the wrong job. MAybe you shouldn't have smoked that joint before walking into the Recruiter's office. Maybe you should have studied harder in school. Maybe you should learn to present yourself better when talking to the recruiter.


----------



## kincanucks

_I myself, have now been waiting 10 months, going on 11, for just my criminal record check (fingerprints) to come back,_

If this is for an in Canada check then you have been waiting too long and I strongly suggest you call the CFRC/D to find out why.

If this is for an out of country check then unfortunately it does take a very long time even for them to come back and say they can't do it.


----------



## Ender Wiggen

What is the recruitment process that the American army uses? The only bad things I have heard about it are problems with the recruiters themselves (IE. forgoing drug tests). Why couldn't we just use a their process or something based off of it if there are so many problems with our own?


----------



## Jaxson

kincanucks said:
			
		

> _I myself, have now been waiting 10 months, going on 11, for just my criminal record check (fingerprints) to come back,_
> 
> If this is for an in Canada check then you have been waiting too long and I strongly suggest you call the CFRC/D to find out why.
> 
> If this is for an out of country check then unfortunately it does take a very long time even for them to come back and say they can't do it.



I was charged for assault close to 4 years ago, so im assuming that's an in country check, I call every 2 weeks (actually worried i might be annoying them), all i ever get told is that they have heard nothing, and that these things can sometimes take a long time and theres nothing i (or they) can do except wait it out.


----------



## kincanucks

Jaxson said:
			
		

> I was charged for assault close to 4 years ago, so im assuming that's an in country check, I call every 2 weeks (actually worried i might be annoying them), all i ever get told is that they have heard nothing, and that these things can sometimes take a long time and theres nothing i (or they) can do except wait it out.



They shouldn't take that long and sometimes the security folks lose fingerprints or the RCMP never receives them.  Call the CFRC/D and ask them to check in with DPM Sec 2 to make sure that the checks are in fact ongoing and PM me your surname, initials and service number and I will try and check something out form my end.


----------



## Long in the tooth

A few years ago I was interviewing a potential recruit and started to query him about his drug use.  Went down the list : cocaine, no; hallucinogenics (LSD, must have 10 years since last use), no; marijuana (experimental only, more than one year acceptable), YES; When was the last time you used?  What time is it now?  Amazing.... but true.


----------



## GUNS

The reason for all the fuss over Recruitment is all in the numbers. People are  leaving the military at the same rate as new soldiers are coming in. The military are the ones asking for a faster enlistment program. Those that are serving now are being asked to go the extra mile due to the lack of replacement soldiers. If new blood is not injected into the military soon there is going to be a burn out of our serving members.

Some have suggested that the Supp. Reserve should be used in some fashion. I am retired now but would consider a small role with the military again.


----------



## TCBF

"6 Months......do you know how long it takes to get a job as a intelligence officer at CSIS ?  6 months may seem a long time but its not that bad"

- What is your Mobilization Plan?  We put 1,000,000 people out of a population of 13,000,000 into uniform in WW2.  Could we do that now?

Why not?

"the security folks lose fingerprints"

- Which results in an investigation, right?

"...to St Jean. Average grouping was 6 - 9 months, with a few flyers. Same as me 11 years ago. Funny, that."

- That is criminal.  We should go back to Regimental Recruiting. 

- Testing over a week: Pt, quick Pt 1 Med -sign Med Waiver pending Part 2, Trades testing, Psych testing, interview, divided into three groups:

1. Sorry.
2. Maybe.  We will call in two weeks.
3. You catch your flight Friday night.

Then, a year's probationary contract.  Any course failures, injuries or administrative/adaptive issues will result in release or transfer to Reserve sup list: Bye bye.

If not fully trained in a year - transfer to sup list or release.  Enrol the survivors into the Reg Force.


----------



## Springroll

Jaxson said:
			
		

> it doesn't change the fact this is what i want to do, and to all you other people who are discouraged, if this is what you truly want to do in life.. a year... a year and half, the wait wont matter, the end result is all you care about and are focused on.



You are very right, Jaxson. 

I have wanted to be in the CF for 14years. I put my dream on hold(not by choice) to raise a family and go to college. 
Now the time is right and I am waiting, impatiently I might add, but I am still waiting, and waiting, and waiting. And while we are waiting, my entire families life is on hold. No booking of annual leave for my hubby because we have clue when I will get the call and when I will be gone. This process isn't just affecting me, but my family as well. 

I may come across that I am being whiny or whatever, but I know I am not the only one feeling this way about how long the process takes.


----------



## Hot Lips

Well everyone let me tell you about recruiting...

Most everyone knows that I had my name in for DEO NO and that all of my testing went over without a hitch...I had excellent marks from uni, passed the PT test at the 17 year old male level...have been training hard and have wanted nothing more in my lifetime than to be in the Forces.
I went through a circus with a Res unit for 10 months and had enough of that...was encouraged by a most wonderful recruiter to go Regs...and I did...did PT over to keep file updated and have continued to train diligently in case I got "The Call"...

Well yesterday I got "The Call" except it wasn't a good call...it went something like this...you were up on the merit list and scored very well...you were an excellent candidate but...

The CF decided that instead of taking 8 DEO NOs this year it took 2...the other 6 spots were put into the ROTP for nursing...so there aren't spots left...he said had there of been the 8 I would have been selected without a doubt :'(

Most of you know how bad I wanted to do this and how dedicated I have been to getting there...this is CF recruiting at it's best...

Anyway, after a long, long cry (I never cry for any reason...ask Mud) I am deciding what to do...I am dead set on being in the Forces...one way shape or form...hey that would be the persistence...eh Para.

I am looking at other trades and other ways to get in...any and all comments or advice are certainly welcome...PM me.

So I got my first big bone from the CF...I am up for more...

HL


----------



## SeaRoom

Hey HL,

Ever thought about going to Med School?


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

For those who think there is nothing wrong with the Recruiting system the way it is, here's my 2 cents.

I am a current serving (Ex Reg Frce, now Class B reserve) with 17 years in next month.  I went thru Reg Frce recruiting and reserves and am currently mid-step in a CT back to Reg Frce.

No problems with the Recruiting system?  That is ignorance and denial.  Period.  That is the same stupid mentality I have seen before.  "On my basic, we had to do stupid things for no reason so now, as an instructor, I will make them do stupid things because, well, because thats they way it is."  Just cause something was f**ked up when you did it, you should suck it up and never improve it because "thats just the way it is"?  Right.

How do I know?

The CF Recruiting Site says this for CTs:

No physical fitness test for those of you who have demonstrated successful completion of the CF EXPRES test or the Land Force Command Physical Fitness Test within the 12-month period prior to CT application (or 24-month period if exempted); Guess what, I did the EXPRES test in March.  I just did it AGAIN yesterday.  12 months eh?  Maybe CFRC staff need to follow the guidelines.  I don't have a problem diong the test, but why is this info on the website if its not policy or not followed.  Yet there it is in black and white

No Enhanced Reliability Check if you have a current reliability clearance or security clearance to the level required for your occupation; and 

No medical examination for if you are younger than 37 and have had a CF medical within the last five years. Bullcrap on this one again.  I did a Part 1 and Part 2 even though, as I am Class B, I just did a complete medical in much less than 5 years.  I am 35.

Members of the Regular and Reserve Forces already enjoy a sense of camaraderie, and shared expertise and goals, that transcend those found in most workplaces. Streamlined CT policy will forge even stronger bonds, creating a seamless environment within which all of you can move efficiently and contribute on an equitable footing. 

Canadian Forces Personnel Newsletter 
Issue 11/05 - 16 November 2005 

http://www.recruiting.forces.gc.ca/engraph/CFmembers/serving_CFmembers_e.aspx  (click on Component Transfer on the drop-down list)

Its a nicely written article.  Too bad it wasn't actually true.  I don't think the CT should be in the hands of the CFRG.  I am not a "recruit", they already did that with me twice, so after 17 years in, I am back at CFRC.  The staff is great at the CFRC, don't get me wrong, but the process and methodology behind this stinks. 

I personally have been thru this story that Hot Lips is talking about and I will tell you, straight up, that you are only seeing the tip of the iceberg on this one and how f**ked up it has been.  And when she would look at me and ask me questions about why this and why that, I could see right then and there that the CF Recruiting needs a face-lift.  Anyone who would like me to justify it, based on her recruiting experience, please ask away.  I can provide detailed info on the CF Recruting process/system jerking around someone who only wanted/wants to serve.  

-She is not after the free university, she already has a degree.  
-She is not after the $40,000 signing bonus for Nursing Officers, because there isn't one.  
-She is not some 18 year old not sure what to do with her life.  
-She passed the PT tests at the under-35 Male standard.  There are serving Male members who can't do that for christ sakes.  

So, where did her MOTIVATION to service count in the "merit system".  There are people out there getting free degree's and cutting loose after their mandatory service, vice someone who is medically, educationally and "for love of country" reasons, most fit for service.  

What she _didn't _ tell you was she was at a lunch function at the Wardroom the day before her call came, with a few Nursing Officers from the local area.  According to THEM...they are severely in need of nurses in the CF that have actual critical care skills.  One of the NOs there at the lunch said they are *SEVERELY* short nurses that can actually nurse in places like A-stan.  And hey, the guy JUST got back.  And this guy has 20+ years in, and ya, IS a Nurse O in the Forces.  So, lets assume he knows what he is talking about.  So, Hot Lips worked in Emerg a few years ago when we met.  Should be a shoe-in to me; emerg medicince, medically fit, motivated, all the stuff the CF says it looking for, then the MCC has to call and say "well someone changed the plan that I told you about, that made you decide to apply Reg Frce, so, even though I have told you how strong of an applicant you are, and even though you can pass the EXPRES test to the under 35 Male standard, and you have a degree...no thanks.  However, we appreciate you hanging on for over a year."  This is the same one that encouraged her to apply Reg Frce because she was such a strong applicant.  Oh yeah, I know some of the CFRC staff, and they told me too, that she was "pretty much a shoe in".  Nothing was guarunteed, yup she knew that, I know that, we all know that.  Is that a good excuse/reason to just say "recruiting is fine the way it is".  I don't think so.

If anyone thinks that is, well, "ok", I ask you to please never take a task at the CFRC in your area.

The CF is about people, for without people, there is no CF.  I think it should look inward to see if there are ways to look after people, like Hot Lips, who's sole motivation is to serve.  We have people in uniform that are there for themselves, and people like her clawing to get in so they can serve.  And...there is nothing wrong with that?   : 

Oddly enough, take a look at the bottom right part of this website (link below) and look at the Hot Jobs listed.  Now, anyone please, explain THAT to Hot Lips...cause I sure can't.  And yes, to quote the words RIGHT ABOVE THAT LIST...

_*Learn more about these specialized, in-demand  professions*:_

http://www.recruiting.forces.gc.ca/engraph/home/index_e.aspx

Please, don't anyone be so ignorant as to say "there is nothing wrong with our recruiting system".  What more do you need to see, to see that there IS something wrong with it?  How do you explain to people like Hot Lips, who had NO medical issues, drug issues, etc etc that the "system works and weeds out the unwanted's" when there is now a Capt at the CFRC in Halifax that can't explain to her the sense in this mess?  The one who is meeting with her next Monday to try to figure something out?  

This is not meant to offend or point fingers at current CFRG staff/personnel, it is directed at the "system", not the people.


----------



## Springroll

I am in total agreement with you, Mud. HL and I have chatted about the frustrations of the system before, and we are both on the same page.

My husband has had to listen to the same sort of stuff as you have from HL....and he can't figure out what the issues are either.

Give her a hug for me....and let her know I'm thinking of her...I'm still waiting for them to return my call from 2 days ago  :


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

Thanks Springroll.

The worst part is the Forces is loosing out on an EXPERIENCED, qualified, motiviated, patriotic, fit, willing to go where ever/whenever, current RN with a Bachelor of Science in Nursing from Dal, with no credit/drug/personal/criminal issues, who is joining to serve, not get a free education and then bail or a signing bonus, or nothing.  

Just doesn't make sense.  Maybe she can get in next year, when some Capt who has been avoiding tours and deployments gets out after his/her mandatory 5 years service.  :

I remember when I told her, as a nurse, she would probably deploy to a theatre immediately upon her mandatory training was completed.  She just sat there and smiled.  Later she asked me how many times she "would be allowed" to go overseas with the troops to help them.


----------



## Springroll

They are going to lose out on a very qualified person if they don't get a move on. 

Makes you wonder about those making the decisions, doesn't it?

There has to be something else she can do. Is there someone else she can talk to? Maybe call up her local pro military MP? Maybe even consider calling the ombudsman. They are there to help resolve issues. They may not be able to help, but who knows. Won't know unless ya try....

And kudos to you for being there to support her....


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

Well, her MCC called here today, she is back at CFRC on Monday...to discuss options, this guy really doesn't want to loose her.  She mentioned going Med Tech and then maybe being able to someday get into the NO side...so she is also looking at Pilot, Air Nav, and few other things.  Heck, she has even talked about being a "army officer" (aka combat arms) before...who knows.

Still, I agree, it makes me wonder who is smoking rope up there making decisions, or how they get made.


----------



## GUNS

I would really like to know how much it cost to staff and maintain all the CFRC's in Canada?

I would really like to know how much we are paying the people that developed the Recruitment process?

I would really like to know how much we are paying the person that approved it.

If and when I ever find out this information, I will file it under " Waste of time and money"


----------



## TCBF

What about the "Out Of Area" option?!

We all know vacancies are geographically, ethnically and linguistically distributed.  You would not believe how many Newfies were recruited against a 'Toronto' slot in the old days.  We also know there are recruiters who would rather enrol a nurse as an Infantryman - and get the credit for it - than allow another region to fill their quota using 'HIS' Nurse Applicant.

So, ASK HIM IF THERE ARE  VACANCIES FOR NURSES AT ANOTHER CFRC  IN ANOTHER CITY OR PROVINCE!

Then watch him turn pink.

 ;D


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

TCBF,

+1.  But...they limited the DEO Nurses to only 2.  Period.  Across the country.   :-\  Not alot to go around...but, I will mention it to her.

However, we may have a new pilot recruit in the works.     46 DEO Pilots this year.  I am telling her to atleast go do ACS in Trenton...never know until you try!  And, wait, the DEO Nurse numbers could change again when someone farts.  You never know how they decide these things...

Mud


----------



## TCBF

Well, yeah, true - nurses and all.  A bunch of carrier pilots could fly into town, knock up all of the nurses, then the nurses would get out and get married...

Oh, wait, sorry, I had a  'Dinosoar Moment ' for a second there.

 ;D


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

ha ha ha

Hey though that IS a good idea!  Hmmmmmmmmmmmm


----------



## Hot Lips

Thanks TCBF,

No I know there aren't any other DEO NO positions...Kincanucks can verify that...it was 2 across Canada.
They put the other 6 positions into the ROTP Nursing program for a total of 22 spots there...which is great, except I already have a degree and can't apply for that...

IMO I don't know why you would want to take more Uni students that will have no nursing experience over seasoned nurses who would just require the military training for the most part...but hey what do I know.

HL


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

I'll get the tinfoils hats, as there is some common sense in that statement HL...


----------



## TCBF

"IMO I don't know why you would want to take more Uni students that will have no nursing experience over seasoned nurses who would just require the military training for the most part...but hey what do I know."

- Age and career planning.  You, being a bit long in the tooth ( ;D), don't have the career room to reach some of the 'top slots in the corporation' that everyone trys to cram their hat badges into.  That's why the old concept of recruiting everyone into the Cbt A then filling the CSS slots with their remusters three to six years later failed.  The supporting arms and services wanted their soldiers too to start out as an original in their trade, and remusters would also be three to six years older with less time to advance.

-Now, one would think that a CRA of sixty and an operational focus would poo-poo these old attitudes, but there are two Armies: The Operational Army and the Career Army.

- Guess which one calls the shots?


----------



## pbi

TCBF said:
			
		

> What about the "Out Of Area" option?!
> 
> We all know vacancies are geographically, ethnically and linguistically distributed.  You would not believe how many Newfies were recruited against a 'Toronto' slot in the old days.  We also know there are recruiters who would rather enrol a nurse as an Infantryman - and get the credit for it - than allow another region to fill their quota using 'HIS' Nurse Applicant.
> 
> So, ASK HIM IF THERE ARE  VACANCIES FOR NURSES AT ANOTHER CFRC  IN ANOTHER CITY OR PROVINCE!
> 
> Then watch him turn pink.
> 
> ;D



This may work. When I applied to transfer to the RegF in 1982, I was turned down as an Inf Offr applicant at CFRC Toronto. I was told that I lacked the educational requirements. (I had Ontario Gr 13)  I tried again at the CFRC det in Kitchener-Waterloo and was accepted.

Cheers


----------



## kincanucks

pbi said:
			
		

> This may work. When I applied to transfer to the RegF in 1982, I was turned down as an Inf Offr applicant at CFRC Toronto. I was told that I lacked the educational requirements. (I had Ontario Gr 13)  I tried again at the CFRC det in Kitchener-Waterloo and was accepted.
> 
> Cheers



There are no longer any regional quotas the numbers for each occupation are national numbers.  The eighties and nineties are over.


----------



## Old Sweat

To make things even more interesting, local (Ottawa) radio is reporting that the CF has an urgent requirement for 300 medical professionals, including nursing officers, and is contemplating offering signing bonuses. Go figger.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

wtf  :rage:


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

Old Sweat

Anything in the papers up there??


----------



## Hot Lips

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> To make things even more interesting, local (Ottawa) radio is reporting that the CF has an urgent requirement for 300 medical professionals, including nursing officers, and is contemplating offering signing bonuses. Go figger.


Someone just beat me with a rubber hose...

HL


----------



## Old Sweat

There is a story from the Toronto Star about this that was posted as a new item this morning.

Hot Lips, you hang in there.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Big headline in the Kitchener paper [also Torstar] about the medical shortage....will read later.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

Any links to these articles online is appreciated.  I am sure HL will google this tonight but a helping hand is appreciated.


----------



## Kirkhill

Here ye be.  Posted in accordance with the Fair Dealings provision of the Copyright Act.

Best of luck.


http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1151013012601&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&t=TS_Home



> Army wants medical recruits
> Attention, doctors, nurses, pharmacists and technicians — your country needs 300 of you
> Jun. 23, 2006. 05:08 AM
> TANYA TALAGA
> HEALTH REPORTER
> 
> 
> The Canadian Forces are hunting for nearly 300 medical personnel to serve at home, overseas and to staff the coalition hospital in Kandahar, Afghanistan, and they're hoping lucrative signing bonuses will help bring in some new recruits.
> 
> The Forces desperately need to recruit about 43 doctors, 33 nurses, 20 pharmacists and a host of others, including medical and dental technicians.
> 
> Military officials are aware the recruitment drive is happening at the same time provinces are crying out for more doctors. While they'd prefer full-time staff, the Forces are keen to accept reservists and medical university students.
> 
> The Forces traditionally have had a chronic shortage of medical workers but it has become worse in recent years, said Commodore Margaret Kavanagh, commander of the Canadian Forces health services group.
> 
> "We need just about everything there is out there," she said. "We need physicians, pharmacists, medical technicians, X-ray lab, diagnostics, bio-medical equipment technicians. You name it, we need it."
> 
> Emergency room, mental health and critical-care nurses who can handle severely ill patients are desperately needed. "The specialist nurses are who we are really short of," Kavanagh said.
> 
> To help lure physicians, the Forces already offer signing bonuses to family doctors and specialists up to $225,000 for four years of service, although it is taxable. Now the military is considering extending bonuses to some other medical workers.
> 
> Next week, Canadian Medical Association officials will meet the chief of defence staff to discuss strategies on how to address the shortage, said association president Dr. Ruth Collins-Nakai.
> 
> "With the prolongation of the mission in Afghanistan, plus humanitarian needs ... and the routine care of the troops required here in Canada, there's a need to recruit more doctors and nurses to the military or at least to work with the military," said Collins-Nakai.
> 
> The Canadian government has extended its troop commitment to Afghanistan until 2009.
> 
> Collins-Nakai isn't worried the Forces are competing with the rest of the country for doctors. "We want to support our colleagues," she said. "Oftentimes, they can work in both systems. The doctors in reserves work in the Canadian health system and when there is need they serve on deployment in the military."
> 
> The experiences health-care workers have on deployment are incredibly useful, she said. "Orthopedic surgeons, general surgeons, intensive care (doctors), those types of experiences are valuable to have," she said.
> 
> Kavanagh understands Canada needs more medical personnel. In Ontario, roughly one in 10 people is without a family doctor and a report released this week shows the number of family physicians accepting new patients is at an all-time low.
> 
> "It's a very competitive market out there," said Kavanagh. "We are competing with Canada's health-care system for the same people."
> 
> To make themselves a more attractive employer, the Forces have offered lucrative signing bonuses for the past few years. Doctors who sign up for four years of service receive $225,000, and those who sign up for two years can get $80,000 with the option of getting another $100,000 if they decide to sign up for two more.
> 
> "Civilian" physicians who enter into the military with four years of general-duty experience can make $137,097 and as much as $226,425 if they make it to the rank of colonel. The starting salary for specialists is $186,852 for a major and increases annually according to experience and rank up to $258,312 for a colonel.
> 
> "We are very interested in the mid-career specialists who may have done 20 years of family practice and are looking for a change," Kavanagh said. "We've attracted quite a few of those in recent years."
> 
> At the moment, dentists need not apply. "We're okay for dentists," she said. But dental hygienists, oral and maxillofacial surgeons are in demand.
> 
> To help attract pharmacists and technicians capable of maintaining and operating high-tech diagnostic tools, Kavanagh said the military is working on signing bonuses for them as well.
> 
> "We are short 50 per cent of the pharmacists we need. The role of pharmacists is not just what you see happening in Shoppers Drug Mart. They manage our equipment. They co-ordinate all our supplies in and out of theatre. They handle some of our other medications and vaccinations we use to protect our soldiers that you might not use in the civilian environment."
> 
> While full-time medical staff is needed , Kavanagh said the military can manage with part-time personnel and reservists.
> 
> To attract medical students, they'll pay for tuition and books as well as a salary of around $45,000 in return for four years of service. When they graduate, students will get a signing bonus of $40,000 to $80,000.
> 
> Men and women who can fix high-tech medical equipment are also in need. The Kandahar hospital has a 16-slice CT scanner and dust is an issue in Afghanistan. "The more high-tech you get, difficult environments can ruin equipment," Kavanagh said.
> 
> The Forces have put out recruitment ads in medical journals, attended job fairs and are trying to get more aggressive in their recruitment drive.
> 
> "We need to reach out to people and say we are here and we are an option," she said.


----------



## Springroll

Go get 'em HotLips....!! 
 :threat:


----------



## kincanucks

_43 doctors, 33 nurses, 20 pharmacists _ 

The numbers for this year's Strategic Intake Plan (SIP), that were released earlier this year, were 54 MOs, 35 NOs, and 17 Pharms so not really anything new.


----------



## Hot Lips

kincanucks said:
			
		

> _43 doctors, 33 nurses, 20 pharmacists _
> 
> The numbers for this year's Strategic Intake Plan (SIP), that were released earlier this year, were 54 MOs, 35 NOs, and 17 Pharms so not really anything new.


 ???
Well it would seem THE PLAN took a different turn at some point in time?  Because 22 ROTP positions does not give you 22 experienced nurses as part of the 35...and the 2 DEOs well my math is pretty good...I don't get 35 from that ???


HL


----------



## TMM

HL I read that at the doctor's this afternoon and you popped to mind right away.


----------



## Hot Lips

TMM said:
			
		

> HL I read that at the doctor's this afternoon and you popped to mind right away.


Well thank you...I'm flattered

HL


----------



## TCBF

"THE PLAN took a different turn at some point in time?  Because 22 ROTP positions does not give you 22 experienced nurses as part of the 35...and the 2 DEOs well my math is pretty good...I don't get 35 from that "

- It is not about producing nurses.  It is about producing OFFICERS.

- Remember:

"...but there are two Armies: The Operational Army and the Career Army."


----------



## Hot Lips

Yes, I see what you are saying...

HL


----------



## Hot Lips

Well some good does come to those who persevere...

Can't get excited yet...

An update...
This morning I received a call from CFRC Halifax and was told that I have an offer "pending" as a nurse  
It was also relayed that if/when I go to IAP/BOTP it will most likely be in April.
Will provide more info as same becomes available...

HL

Thank you to all of you who sent me PMs of support and encouragement...it meant alot.


----------



## flyboy140

Open a bottle of champagne, you deserve it! An injustice has been corrected.


----------



## Hot Lips

wilco flyboy140

Thank you 

HL


----------



## Kilo_302

All i can say that if the CF is having trouble recruiting, sign me up. The day I turned 16 I tried to join the reserves and was turned down 'cause of a bum ear...boooo to that.


----------



## Matty B.

The waiting time involved in the recruiting process is very long. I applied in October 2005, and I start BOTC in January 2007. I want to work in the Forces badly enough to wait, but I honestly don't see many people sticking it through the slow recruiting process with so many civilian jobs available right now.

Also, every time I went into the CFRC, I would notice the lower ranks (Pte., Cpl., M.Cpl.) working their butts off in the back office while the higher ranks, including officers, sat in the front either talking to applicants or doing nothing.

Sorry if I offend anyone, but this is my truthful recruiting experience.


----------



## mosquito

Quagmire said:
			
		

> Relax security clearences.  Um hell no.  They are many reasons why recruiting is meessed up but security clearences aren't where I'd be cutting.



I agree with this.  More resources must be allocated to complete security clearances for recruiting so that they do not take so long.  If the government truly wants the CF to be able to recruit the numbers we need, priority security clearances for potential recruits is required.

I have 30 years of service now and I believe that the CF is heading in the right direction and has shown continuous improvement.  Our pay is good, we are starting to be treated fairly by the public / media and within our own organization.  For anyone who feels the calling or can commit to the CF values as per the excellent publication "Duty With Honour" - the CF is for you.  If I were 30 years younger, and loved my country and its beliefs - I would be at the recruiting centre right now.  The military life in the CF is really second to none.  I am very happy with my career choice and encourage all peace-loving, compassionate and caring canadians to consider a career serving Canada in the CF.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

What about enticing doctors from places like India? They speak English, have a good reputation around the world and have much lower expectations.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

??


----------



## FastEddy

Colin P said:
			
		

> What about enticing doctors from places like India? They speak English, have a good reputation around the world and have much lower expectations.




We do, but here in Glorious Old Quebec they have to pass a very stiff French Langage Test and then be Re-certified again for their Medical License in French.

Just speaking English (Heaven Forbid) and probally two other Languages is not sufficient or acceptable. Yes I know all about Bill 101, maybe thats the problem.


----------



## paracowboy

FastEddy said:
			
		

> We do, but here in Glorious Old Quebec they have to pass a very stiff French Langage Test and then be Re-certified again for their Medical License in French.
> 
> Just speaking English (Heaven Forbid) and probally two other Languages is not sufficient or acceptable. Yes I know all about Bill 101, maybe thats the problem.


no problem, tell 'em all to come to Alberta! We already have a huge South-West Asian community and plenty of room for more. Especially doctors and other such professions. And all they have to speak is ONE of the official languages of our nation. More, is a bonus. If they're primarily Francophones, it's cool. We have some communities that speak as much French as English.


----------



## TCBF

"What about enticing doctors from places like India? They speak English, have a good reputation around the world and have much lower expectations."

- I have some ethical issues with this. I don't think we should be skimming the cream off the top of third world countries to make up for our own poor planning.  Why not fund more Canadians to Med School?


----------



## edmjay

I would just note that since we skim everything else worthwhile off of them, why stop now?


----------



## couchcommander

Not to mention even when they do come here, often times we don't recognize their credentials. 

Nothing like an Amway salesman with a masters in structural engineering.


----------



## GAP

couchcommander said:
			
		

> Not to mention even when they do come here, often times we don't recognize their credentials.
> 
> Nothing like an Amway salesman with a masters in structural engineering.



While I grant that the Canadian organizations have been heavy handed in recognizing credentials, they sometimes have good reason. 
I have worked with a couple of immigrants who had wonderful degrees. They were so incompetent in their fields, one a "structural engineer" who could not have built a bird house if his life depended on it. The other a "computer engineer" who could not figure out how to format a hard drive, nor a floppy, and did not have enough sense to check to see if the monitor was plugged in when the screen came up black...two wildly illogical instances, maybe....but maybe not.


----------



## Gunner

> While I grant that the Canadian organizations have been heavy handed in recognizing credentials, they sometimes have good reason.



+1.


----------



## Lost_Warrior

> They were so incompetent in their fields,



You have to understand, there are people like that from all walks of life including Canada.   I worked with someone who finished their degree in Networking at a college (CEGEP) here in Montreal.  The guy couldn't even explain some of the basics in network infrastructure (Ex: He was trying to get into a router, and freaking out when it wasn't working.  I had to explain that he was not on the same subnet, and thats why he could not access it...simple stuff)


----------



## Colin Parkinson

couchcommander said:
			
		

> Not to mention even when they do come here, often times we don't recognize their credentials.
> 
> Nothing like an Amway salesman with a masters in structural engineering.



My wife just went through this when they didn’t recognize her law degree from London, England, mind you the Law society just started admitting lawyers from other provinces. I also had a girlfriend who was a teacher, when we went for the interview at the teaching association, they said they would not recognize her special education degree from the University of Montreal. I asked why? They replied: “We don’t know what their syllabus and standards are” 

I picked up her phone and told her: “Why don’t you phone them and have them fax it to you, goddam lazy F***”

Any respect I have had for any professional associations has been flushed down the toilet. It has nothing to do with standards, instead it’s more likely: Racism, sandboxism, egoism or protectionism.


----------



## armyrules

The Army never had any problems with me wantong to join!! I'm so gung ho about the whole thing can't wait to start BMQ in OCtober!! I wonder why they are having problems? I heard on the news awhile ago that most of the new recruits usually quit at the paper processing phasse because it takes too long or there is a problem. In my opinion if you want it tha bad then its ok to wait but if you're an impatient little S##$ then find another job that tolerates your problem. But from personal experience I've never had a probelm with the processing of my apps or the interview or the CFAT so I don't know what everyone is whining about anyways. Sorry for the rant I just get worked up a little 
:cheers: boys and gals !!


----------



## Hot Lips

I see...
Thanks for that armyrules  ??? ...IMO it's not a matter of the ability to wait...it has been for me...hurtles in a recruiting system that seems to be struggling as of late...

I would agree persevering does pay off...and yes...what's worth having is worth waiting and fighting for.
I don't believe most people who are citing examples here of struggles are reflecting what one would expect to be the "norms" for wait times...

HL


----------



## Long in the tooth

"Any respect I have had for any professional associations has been flushed down the toilet."

This has been my opinion for years now, let alone the time it takes to receive credit for overseas training.  In my view it's a union 'closed shop' and extends to how universities treat credits from other institutes of higher learning.

But then if equivilency were more prevalent they wouldn't have as much business...


----------



## PEI.Girl

For me, it's the time frame. I'm applying to the reserves, and it's taking a very long time. Almost 8 months now.


----------



## Franko

PEI.Girl said:
			
		

> For me, it's the time frame. I'm applying to the reserves, and it's taking a very long time. Almost 8 months now.



PEI.Girl,

http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/24937.0.html



> You will not have multiple forum accounts without prior permission.



Nice try.

*The Army.ca Staff*


----------



## Col.Steiner

Lone Wolf Quagmire said:
			
		

> Relax security clearences.  Um hell no.  They are many reasons why recruiting is meessed up but security clearences aren't where I'd be cutting.



The security clearance would be ok if they did the fucking checks in a reasonable amount of time! 2 to 3 years is just plain stupid, lazy, and disrespectful to the applicant. Only one in a million would still be interested in joining after such a ridiculous wait, and we just don't have that many people in the country to be that selective.


----------



## Rayman

The security clearance in my opinion is a needed thing. Working as a cleaner right now we have buildings that contain different levels of security clearances just to sweep and mop the floors. In fact in the event of a disaster cleanup we have to be escorted with the Comissionaires (I actually like this cause a lot are ex-military and great to talk to). Its good to know who might come into contact with information that is not meant to leave that room, and in fact many cleaning companies have it right in their policies that as much as looking at any document be it a grocery receipt or even a little Garfield capture warrants dismissal. So if were going to hire people that may work on experiemental weapons systems, or handle more sensitive issues such as numbers and exercises and such we should know that we can trust them and theyre not actually up to something different.

Of course now most people may have a clean record, but have ancestory that isnt exactly (i.e. me) and I believe it helps them establish who is more of a risk than others, though in all reality they may not be. Of course simply if these people want to be in the Canadian Forces bad enough and want to do this as a career. They would be phoning their local CFRC asking if they've heard anything. Keeping their pants on and working on physical fitness and such. If they give up cause after so many months files are having trouble going through well A ) thats life, dont know how many government clearance forms ive filled out just to be stand-by at a government building B ) if the recruit schools are busting at the seams well maybe theres a lot more papers that were there before theirs C ) if they're giving up that easy and saying "oh well, bun them they dont want me that bad then" then maybe they arent as devoted as they should be considering they're applying to the military, not the local Sobeys. From what I understand you need to give it your all and more cause thats what the military trains you to do. You want it that bad? Work for it. Nothing in life that is worth it is without struggle. What are they going to do out in the field when they find out the chopper thats supposed to come get them had to be grounded for repairs and another is a good couple hours away? Give up and surrender saying "oh well, they werent coming to get us anyways."


----------



## Roy Harding

OberstSteiner said:
			
		

> The security clearance would be ok if they did the fucking checks in a reasonable amount of time! 2 to 3 years is just plain stupid, lazy, and disrespectful to the applicant. Only one in a million would still be interested in joining after such a ridiculous wait, and we just don't have that many people in the country to be that selective.



I don't know how many times on these forums it has been pointed out that security clearances are NOT done by the CF.

There is a need for security clearances, I don't find that need disrespectful to applicants.  I DO find your accusation that the people who conduct those clearances are "plain stupid, lazy, and disrespectful" to be disrespectful to those who are swamped with security clearance applications.

I take it that you were that "one in a million" who remained interested long enough to join?


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

It may take longer now a days with the 9/11 aftermath etc.


----------



## mashup

OberstSteiner said:
			
		

> The security clearance would be ok if they did the ******* checks in a reasonable amount of time! 2 to 3 years is just plain stupid, lazy, and disrespectful to the applicant. Only one in a million would still be interested in joining after such a ridiculous wait, and we just don't have that many people in the country to be that selective.



This happened to be my situation.  I graduated with my PolySci degree in 2002 from an American university, and applied as a Direct Entry Officer to the CF later that summer through the office in Vancouver.  It took until the summer of 2005 to finally get my invitation to accept or decline working for the CF.  I had to invest a pretty significant amount of time and money to get my application through CFRC Vancouver limbo, from LASIK and paying to get my degree verified by an outside agency, to repeated fitness and medical checks (3 year process = expired), to reopening my file because which was closed when I left Vancouver for a month to go traveling in the UK.

I understand now it's going to take more time for clearances for those enroling officer-side, as well as for Canadians who've studied abroad (though I maintain the US is hardly Yemen).  However, in this time I was waiting to hear back from the CFRC my life was essentially on hold and it's immensely frustrating not only to wait, but to recieve so little information:  'We're still waiting to hear back from Ottawa'.  While it's amusing to say to your friends that your arts degree is so meaningless you can't even join the army with it, the end result of all this waiting is that I became extremely cynical in regards to the CF even before I recieved my service number.

Bright and driven people chafe under situations where they're not allowed to work.  If you consider your time valuable, 2-3 years is a very long time to spend waiting for something, especially with no promise of return.  I had long given up on my CF application and had moved on to other things by the time it was finally processed and it came as a surprise.  2-3 year wait times do push people away.  It's not unreasonable to ask that the CF expidites the application process, and it makes a hell of a lot of sense to improve badly-functioning systems rather than training people to suck it up under inefficiency that could be avoided.  Being swamped with applicants shouldn't be a reason it takes 2-3 years to process files, it should be a reason the method of processing them needs to be improved.  Acceptance of bureaucratic inefficiency is something that ought to be burned out of the CF with extreme prejudice.  I sincerely hope that's not a minority opinion in the higher echelons of the CF; I'm still a little green to have drawn my own conclusions.


----------



## kincanucks

mashup said:
			
		

> This happened to be my situation.  I graduated with my PolySci degree in 2002 from an American university, and applied as a Direct Entry Officer to the CF later that summer through the office in Vancouver.  It took until the summer of 2005 to finally get my invitation to accept or decline working for the CF.  I had to invest a pretty significant amount of time and money to get my application through CFRC Vancouver limbo, from LASIK and paying to get my degree verified by an outside agency, to repeated fitness and medical checks (3 year process = expired), to reopening my file because which was closed when I left Vancouver for a month to go traveling in the UK.
> 
> I understand now it's going to take more time for clearances for those enroling officer-side, as well as for Canadians who've studied abroad  (though I maintain the US is hardly Yemen).  However, in this time I was waiting to hear back from the CFRC my life was essentially on hold and it's immensely frustrating not only to wait, but to recieve so little information:  'We're still waiting to hear back from Ottawa'.  While it's amusing to say to your friends that your arts degree is so meaningless you can't even join the army with it, the end result of all this waiting is that I became extremely cynical in regards to the CF even before I recieved my service number.
> 
> Bright and driven people chafe under situations where they're not allowed to work.  If you consider your time valuable, 2-3 years is a very long time to spend waiting for something, especially with no promise of return.  I had long given up on my CF application and had moved on to other things by the time it was finally processed and it came as a surprise.  2-3 year wait times do push people away.  It's not unreasonable to ask that the CF expidites the application process, and it makes a hell of a lot of sense to improve badly-functioning systems rather than training people to suck it up under inefficiency that could be avoided.  Being swamped with applicants shouldn't be a reason it takes 2-3 years to process files, it should be a reason the method of processing them needs to be improved.  Acceptance of bureaucratic inefficiency is something that ought to be burned out of the CF with extreme prejudice.  I sincerely hope that's not a minority opinion in the higher echelons of the CF; I'm still a little green to have drawn my own conclusions.



 :crybaby:


----------



## aesop081

kincanucks said:
			
		

> :crybaby:



+1000


----------



## slowmode

What I noticed is a lot of reservists are High school/college/university students. The Military should set up little recruiting venues in schools across the country. Its a great way to recruit people. Another good way is simply showing your presence, if you show your presence to the Canadian Audience more will see you and what you do. Just my little opinions


----------



## Michael OLeary

slowmode said:
			
		

> What I noticed is a lot of reservists are High school/college/university students. *The Military should set up little recruiting venues in schools across the country.* Its a great way to recruit people. Another good way is simply showing your presence, if you show your presence to the Canadian Audience more will see you and what you do. Just my little opinions


(Emphasis added)

Sadly, there are those who would disagree.

Operation Objection: Group wants recruiters out of schools & public events


----------



## slowmode

Michael O`Leary said:
			
		

> (Emphasis added)
> 
> Sadly, there are those who would disagree.
> 
> Operation Objection: Group wants recruiters out of schools & public events



Thats quite sad to read, what ever happend to freedom of assosiation. You are just exposed to what we do and one can choose to join. What gives people the right to hide and take away the right to show people who we are, and what we do.


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

The wait time for the RCMP is also a very long one, this is not unique to our organisation. I'm not saying it's a good thing but I have relatives who have waited a long time to get into the Mounties too.


----------



## aesop081

slowmode said:
			
		

> Thats quite sad to read, what ever happend to freedom of assosiation. You are just exposed to what we do and one can choose to join. What gives people the right to hide and take away the right to show people who we are, and what we do.



Did you miss all this by any chance ?

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/66411.0.html


----------



## slowmode

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Did you miss all this by any chance ?
> 
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/66411.0.html


Looks like I did, thanks . I've been away with school for quite some time so lets just say i was tuned out of the outside world. Ill read that


----------



## Rayman

slowmode said:
			
		

> What I noticed is a lot of reservists are High school/college/university students. The Military should set up little recruiting venues in schools across the country. Its a great way to recruit people. Another good way is simply showing your presence, if you show your presence to the Canadian Audience more will see you and what you do. Just my little opinions



When I was younger I found out about the reserves when a couple recruiters came to my high school looking for full time or part time-they gave me all sorts of info even down to phone numbers and info nights and brouchers and everything.


----------



## aesop081

Rayman said:
			
		

> When I was younger I found out about the reserves when a couple recruiters came to my high school looking for full time or part time-they gave me all sorts of info even down to phone numbers and info nights and brouchers and everything.



Again, look 2 posts above yours.......as well as reply #278


----------



## daftandbarmy

An article that highlights another gap that the recruiting system is trying to close.

The War in Afghanistan: Where are the visible minorities?

http://www.asianpacificpost.com/portal2/ff808081144c4993011450c44e740011_Editorial__Canadian_Forces.do.html


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> An article that highlights another gap that the recruiting system is trying to close.
> 
> The War in Afghanistan: Where are the visible minorities?
> 
> http://www.asianpacificpost.com/portal2/ff808081144c4993011450c44e740011_Editorial__Canadian_Forces.do.html



The article is right about the challenges we face in attitudes in the immigrant communities. Many of the countries that people come from had oppressive military regimes or mandatory service and their attitudes about military service have been shaped by that experience.


----------



## Edward Campbell

From the linked article:



> “I don't think Chinese families see careers for their children in the military,” said a Richmond-based political activist.



There is an old saying in parts of Asia which goes about like this:

*"You don't use good iron to make horseshoe nails and you don't send good men to be soldiers."*

It isn't just oppressive and corrupt uniformed services in the _old country_, it is also a deeply ingrained attitude which says that military (and police) service is a _low_ occupation.


----------



## Kiwi99

Personally, I don't really get the minority and gender quotas in CF recruiting.  If a bunch of women or minority groupos dont want to be soldiers, then they won't be.  If only 1% of white males wanted to be soldiers, then thats all we would get.  Quotas are just a tool of political correctness and really are quite gay.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Kiwi99 said:
			
		

> Personally, I don't really get the minority and gender quotas in CF recruiting.  If a bunch of women or minority groupos dont want to be soldiers, then they won't be.  If only 1% of white males wanted to be soldiers, then thats all we would get.  Quotas are just a tool of political correctness and really are quite gay.



I agree, Kiwi99. While I understand the _head-shed's_ desire to try to have a CF which, roughly, reflects the society it serves, it ought to be a _nice to have_ goal. We have some much more important *must have* and _should have_ goals - beginning with more and more first class people - of whatever race, creed, gender, etc.


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

It's a little more complicated than that. It will be necessary to adjust our cultural norms in the Forces in order to attract those of other ethnic groups. If you regard the immigration numbers and the birth rate of white causaians you will quickly learn that our traditional recruiting base is quickly diminishing. In twenty or thirty years I predict that the face of our country is going to be very different than it is today....that is an inescapable fact.
These cultural norms will include every facet of life in the Forces from Religious accomodation to food service etc.  It's not soley about political correctness, although there are certainly those who wish to push that agenda. It's going to be about taping into where the recruits are....in the non-white, non-christian communities.
The CMP and others have already started down this road by visiting Mosques and temples and synagogues and other community gathering places to convince these communities that the Profession of Arms is a worthy one for their sons and daughters.
Given the direction of the country and the necessity of reaching more recruits I'd expect more changes in this area not fewer in the near future.


----------



## TCBF

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> ... The CMP and others ...



- Who are "The CMP..." ?

- If it's worth living in, it's worth fighting for.

- Perhaps we do not have a recruiting crisis so much as a loyalty crisis.  This is the sort of muddle that tempted a previous government to build internment camps.  If the New-Canadians are not completely loyal, perhaps - for reasons of National Survival - we should draw our immigrants from societies KNOWN for their dedication to values similar to ours.


----------



## aesop081

TCBF said:
			
		

> - Who are "The CMP..." ?



Chief of Military Personel


----------



## Edward Campbell

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> It's a little more complicated than that. It will be necessary to adjust our cultural norms in the Forces in order to attract those of other ethnic groups. If you regard the immigration numbers and the birth rate of white causaians you will quickly learn that our traditional recruiting base is quickly diminishing. In twenty or thirty years I predict that the face of our country is going to be very different than it is today....that is an inescapable fact.
> These cultural norms will include every facet of life in the Forces from Religious accomodation to food service etc.  It's not soley about political correctness, although there are certainly those who wish to push that agenda. It's going to be about taping into where the recruits are....in the non-white, non-christian communities.
> The CMP and others have already started down this road by visiting Mosques and temples and synagogues and other community gathering places to convince these communities that the Profession of Arms is a worthy one for their sons and daughters.
> Given the direction of the country and the necessity of reaching more recruits I'd expect more changes in this area not fewer in the near future.



The _face of the country_ is already hugely different than when I joined an essentially all white, Anglo army nearly a half century ago.

We need to be very, very careful re: "what we change." There must be an essentially _professional soldier_ ethos in our *regular* army. If (probably when) we have to fight another great war on (hopefully) some far distant shore we can readjust, quickly and surprisingly easily, I think, to the norms and mores of the society we will have. For now, we need _professionals_ who can and will go anywhere and do anything.

Leaving aside the large _born in Britain_ contingent in the Canadian Army in 1914/18, first generation immigrants do not, routinely, look to the army - not even to the _levée en masse_ which is required when their adopted home is in dire need.

Even now we have made changes. I well recall when there was a great hue and cry when we made even slight accommodations for our one or two Jewish members; I don't think I ever met a Muslim Canadian soldier in over 35 years of service; now we have Jews and Muslims and we have chaplains to serve them too. I'm guessing we no longer *"Fall out the Roman Catholics!"* when the padres are about to do their business at some ceremony or another.

Change is good, mostly, unless or until it interferes with the core ethos.


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

TCBF said:
			
		

> - Who are "The CMP..." ?
> 
> - If it's worth living in, it's worth fighting for.
> 
> - Perhaps we do not have a recruiting crisis so much as a loyalty crisis.  This is the sort of muddle that tempted a previous government to build internment camps.  If the New-Canadians are not completely loyal, perhaps - for reasons of National Survival - we should draw our immigrants from societies KNOWN for their dedication to values similar to ours.



Wow good luck trying to get that one passed...limiting immigration to societies known to share our values...won't fly past the constitution I don't think. 
This isn't about loyalty. My father was an immigrant from England...he didn't join the Forces either...he was busy making a better life than he had before he got here...i.e. struggling to make a living and put bread on the table, and for the first 5 years of his life here he was not eligible for service as he was not a citizen yet. Of the second generation my brother became a successful business man (by what he now makes he claims to be keeping at least 6 people on welfare with the taxes he pays) and I joined the CF. 
Our military culture has changed but it still largely reflects those things which appeal to white Caucasian Anglos or Francos (when I got in there was not a lot of accommodation for Francos either). Look around at the reality of Canadian society right now...our immigrants are not those who have the same traditions...that doesn't mean they are disloyal just because they are different.
It is true that we now are making religious accommodations and that will continue I think. But I think you're going to find a lot of other changes which mirror not only the fact that we are a changing society but the fact that we are also becoming more and more a secular society. Why do we continue to get basically 2 weeks of paid vacation that doesn't cost us a lot of annual leave at Christmas time? and four days at Easter? Perhaps we will go to staggered block leaves....March breaks or winter breaks that will help accommodate other cultures holidays etc.
I'm not advocating these changes these are things that are inevitably going to happen given the changing face of our country......Look around the House of Commons...why do you think there are more ethnic minorities getting elected?? it's because they are representative of the folks in their riding's. all institutions in this country will be changing due to this reality,,,,without a doubt.


----------



## Edward Campbell

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> ...
> It is true that we now are making religious accommodations and that will continue I think. But I think you're going to find a lot of other changes which mirror not only the fact that we are a changing society but the fact that we are also becoming more and more a secular society. Why do we continue to get basically 2 weeks of paid vacation that doesn't cost us a lot of annual leave at Christmas time? and four days at Easter?



Let's call 'em _Saturnalia_ (that's what Xmas was before all the recent fall-di-rall) and Spring Festival. The latter will make the Chinese feel more at home - even if it's not at lunar new year.


----------



## Col.Steiner

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> I don't know how many times on these forums it has been pointed out that security clearances are NOT done by the CF.
> 
> There is a need for security clearances, I don't find that need disrespectful to applicants.  I DO find your accusation that the people who conduct those clearances are "plain stupid, lazy, and disrespectful" to be disrespectful to those who are swamped with security clearance applications.
> 
> I take it that you were that "one in a million" who remained interested long enough to join?


Yes, I guess I am one of those rare individuals who decided to stick it out! It either speaks volumes on my eagerness to join, or how stupid I am - not sure which yet!


----------



## Col.Steiner

kincanucks said:
			
		

> :crybaby:



That is the typical response here, usually made by those who got in quick and with minimal difficulty





_Mod edit to fix quote box_


----------



## aesop081

OberstSteiner said:
			
		

> That is the typical response here, usually made by those who got in quick and with minimal difficulty
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Mod edit to fix quote box_



...and an equal   :crybaby:  to you......


----------



## kincanucks

OberstSteiner said:
			
		

> That is the typical response here, usually made by those who got in quick and with minimal difficulty
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Mod edit to fix quote box_



No that is the response of someone who has seen many like you who think the world owes them everything but get upset when they are faced with roadblocks that have to be overcome to achieve something.


----------



## Col.Steiner

kincanucks said:
			
		

> No that is the response of someone who has seen many like you who think the world owes them everything but get upset when they are faced with roadblocks that have to be overcome to achieve something.


Exactly when did I say anyone owed me anything? 3 years plus is too long to wait, period. If that is me whining, so be it.


----------



## daftandbarmy

3 years? Wow. What happened, did they find your KKK - Al Queda Alliance facebook page or something?


----------



## daftandbarmy

Some ideas from the US on how to increase the number of recruits - just lower the standards. Would it work for us?

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/11/27/america/army.php


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

I don't think it's whining, 3 years is an excessive amount of time to wait. If you're really interested you should be down there every week hounding them IMHO. Something is going wrong with that file. At the moment we are taking people from the street and whisking them off to Basic in record time...there is something amiss with this file.


----------



## Greymatters

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Some ideas from the US on how to increase the number of recruits - just lower the standards. Would it work for us?



I dont believe we have the same problem.  There are just as many recruits out there trying to get in as they ever have been.  The problem is the system is slow, cumbersome, and time intensive.  Too many hoops to jump through reqiring support from too many organizations who dont always work well together.  A training system that can only handle x number of candidates per year and acts like its rocket science to expand their training capabilities.  We've already got the plan for this process on paper, its been there ever since the 70's, and gets upgraded every once in a while, in case we went to war and needed to fast-track a few hundred thousand soldiers.  Instead of using it, they turned to the reserves to save money and effort, a short term solution that was supposed to give the training departments time to suck back and fix the problems of figuring out how to train a large group of recruits very quickly.  Instead the time got pissed away and now they are back to square one, still not enough soldiers, except this time a smaller reserve of eligible soldiers waiting in the wings to fill the gaps.

Look at this one guy here, saying he's been waiting for three years.  WTF?  If he meets minimum standards, get him trained.  Tell him he's suitable or not and let him move on with his life instead of jerking his chain forever.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Well the problem is throughout the Federal government, my boss has been trying to fill a position for the last 8 months, but HR pisses around and keeps changing how they want things done.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Greymatters said:
			
		

> I dont believe we have the same problem.  There are just as many recruits out there trying to get in as they ever have been.  The problem is the system is slow, cumbersome, and time intensive.  Too many hoops to jump through reqiring support from too many organizations who dont always work well together.  A training system that can only handle x number of candidates per year and acts like its rocket science to expand their training capabilities.  We've already got the plan for this process on paper, its been there ever since the 70's, and gets upgraded every once in a while, in case we went to war and needed to fast-track a few hundred thousand soldiers.  Instead of using it, they turned to the reserves to save money and effort, a short term solution that was supposed to give the training departments time to suck back and fix the problems of figuring out how to train a large group of recruits very quickly.  Instead the time got pissed away and now they are back to square one, still not enough soldiers, except this time a smaller reserve of eligible soldiers waiting in the wings to fill the gaps.
> 
> Look at this one guy here, saying he's been waiting for three years.  WTF?  If he meets minimum standards, get him trained.  Tell him he's suitable or not and let him move on with his life instead of jerking his chain forever.



I'm in grave danger of being _waaaaay_ out of my lanes here, after all I've been retired for a lot longer than many members have been in the service and, in 35+ years of military service, I had next to nothing to do with recruiting or personnel policy, but: 

1. I'm not sure there *too many hoops*. If we want a tough, superbly disciplined, well trained _professional_ military then we have to start by recruiting the right sort of people. The problems (I think there are several) may include –

a. The hoops are not arranged properly – it’s not too hard to jump through a bunch of hoops if they are easily accessed and in the right order;

b. Some of the hoops are not in our hands; and

c. Money, money, money! Almost all problems can be solved if you throw enough money at them;

2. The training _system_ was, indeed, the poor relation from about 1965 through to 1990±. I did 1½ ‘school’ tours – at one time recruit training, and some other training, too, was done in _regiment depots_ which were rather like schools – and I remain frustrated, 30+ years later, at some of the experiences, mainly at those experiences inflicted upon us by an ill-equipped, uninformed, *uniformed*, empire building bureaucracy. (The civil service did nothing to, for or about military training - other than to shake heads sadly.)

3. Everyone, from Gen. Hillier on down, appears to *know* that –

a. The system is broken, and

b. The way*s* to ‘fix’ it are clear and simple, albeit a bit expensive.

There seems to be a disconnect being knowing and doing.

I have no doubt that the pressures of managing a war gets in the way of looking after the recruiting and training conundrum – and the war in Afghanistan exerts real, huge pressures on senior staff in Ottawa (Have you seen Gen. Hillier lately? He looks ten years older than he did 2½ years ago, when he took over as CDS.). A problem (just one of many) that I think I see (from the comfort of retirement) is that there are way too many people _managing_ the war and, consequently, too few managing everything else. There seems to me to be a compelling _careerist_ ‘need’ to be seen to be doing something, almost anything, involving the ‘war.’ Evidently recruiting and training the people we need to fight said war doesn’t count.

</rant>


----------



## kincanucks

People who have lived, worked, been educated, or traveled extensively in other countries should not expect their files to move quickly. There have been some changes to alleviate the wait times but like it or not the checks are done for a reason.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Considering the Forces is reaching a major crisis point, would it not hurt to bring the people in to carry out the fitness test and then basic training while their security checks are ongoing?

If they are washed out for fitness reasons, then the security checks are pulled. While being checked their status and ID cards reflect the fact. Lets face it, just how much is a recruit going to learn in basic training that poses a threat to the forces or Canada. Most new recruits out of basic have just finally figured out left from right and how to look after themselves. If their status is still not cleared up, then they have to sit in a holding unit doing simple duties. With this approach is some risk that a percentage will have to resign after the training is complete, but I suspect the benefits will outweigh the costs of those few.


----------



## kincanucks

Since the fitness test is carried out at BMQ and BOMQ that is a moot point.  If the applicant is a Canadian citizen who has lived, worked or was educated in another country while a Canadian citizen, I see no problem in letting that person enrol and have the pre-sec continue while they are training. Anyone else should wait.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

kincanucks said:
			
		

> People who have lived, worked, been educated, or traveled extensively in other countries should not expect their files to move quickly. There have been some changes to alleviate the wait times but like it or not the checks are done for a reason.



However as the forces is wanting to recruit people of varied ethnic backgrounds and as this group likely represents a growing proportion of the potential recruiting pool we are going to have to come up with creative ways to address the timeframes and yet provide good operational security. We also have to consider that the Forces is handicapped by not having competitive wages, competing with a economic boom and perception with immigrants that the military is “lower class” occupation. It would be frustrating to be a recruiter to see prime candidates get picked up by other industries because of long wait times.


----------



## TCBF

- We are bleeding red ink because of bad HR decisions.  Druggies are getting out with $1500 a month VAC pensions claiming PTSD for previously existing psycho-social issues.

- We need to immediately give ALL applicants an MMPI 2 series psych eval.

- Garbage In Equals Garbage Out.


----------



## Kirkhill

I am of the opinion that we shouldn't be screening out applicants at the "barrack's gate" so to speak.   If they can walk to the gate under their own power, aren't coughing up a lung, can see the dotted line and sign on it then I think you should let'em in.  Put a hat and a pair of boots on him or her and start the new entrant becoming familiar with the RSM.  In the next 2-6 weeks both the new entrant and the CF will become very familiar with each other and determine whether or not there is a suitable relationship there.  In the mean time low grade security clearances, criminal and financial checks can be run.  At the end of the "probation" the candidate will know enough about the system to know if they want to stay and the system will know if the candidate is acceptable as is or is worth "improving" to meet requirements or even if it is worth "waiving" some requirements to get this candidate.

There is too much competition for good help these days.  Catch them while you can I say.  Don't give them one more excuse/reason NOT to join.  

Adjust the training, and access to classified positions, accordingly.


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> I am of the opinion that we shouldn't be screening out applicants at the "barrack's gate" so to speak.   If they can walk to the gate under their own power, aren't coughing up a lung, can see the dotted line and sign on it then I think you should let'em in.  Put a hat and a pair of boots on him or her and start the new entrant becoming familiar with the RSM.  In the next 2-6 weeks both the new entrant and the CF will become very familiar with each other and determine whether or not there is a suitable relationship there.  In the mean time low grade security clearances, criminal and financial checks can be run.  At the end of the "probation" the candidate will know enough about the system to know if they want to stay and the system will know if the candidate is acceptable as is or is worth "improving" to meet requirements or even if it is worth "waiving" some requirements to get this candidate.
> 
> There is too much competition for good help these days.  Catch them while you can I say.  Don't give them one more excuse/reason NOT to join.
> 
> Adjust the training, and access to classified positions, accordingly.



Well basically that's what we used to do with Chilliwack and Cornwallis.....we took them there and kicked the crap out of them for 13 weeks or so and if they cut the mustard they got to stay for a BE (3 years), If they didn't cut the mustard during their first 2 BEs they were given a handshake and told we no longer required their services. My security check came through around week 8 at Chilliwack if I remember properly....the MPs had me in to verify a few points and then it was done....as  my career progressed we did further security clearances. the bureaucracy has complicated things un-necessarily in some cases....I do agree we have to be smart and not admit folks who've been to Terror school in Whatitsstan though....that shouldn't take too long to check out.


----------



## mashup

kincanucks said:
			
		

> People who have lived, worked, been educated, or traveled extensively in other countries should not expect their files to move quickly. There have been some changes to alleviate the wait times but like it or not the checks are done for a reason.



This is true, kincanucks, but it doesn't take into account that the world is becoming and already to a large degree has become significantly globalized.  As E.R. Campbell mentioned, demographics are changing in Canada and this is only going to become more pronounced as time goes by.  These first-generation Canadians are going to have links all over the world and make your job a living nightmare.  You shouldn't minimize the supposedly unavoidable multi-year wait times by suggesting spending time in other countries is exceptional, when international travel is only going to become more and more common.

It isn't very common for Canadians to have degrees from American universities, however I have two friends who've spent time in Eastern Europe, Cambodia and SE Asia, New Zealand, Europe either on exchanges or travelling.  The first is completing post-graduate education and has been working as an engineer in various different specializations (including designing military simulators), the second has just been accepted to medical school after doing outreach work up north and in the lower DTES.  As I've known them personally for about a 15 years, I can verify that they are in no way security risks.  They would never tolerate the kind of routine blunders that happen in the CFRC on a regular basis (ie. oops we lost your file), much less the obligatory pre-sec wait time.  They don't lack the stones to make good soldiers:  my buddy in med school used to work rappelling out of helicopters to fight forest fires in northern BC, until he got blown off a cliff by the downdraft, and all three of us used to go backcountry ski touring/mountaineering together.  The thing is you don't have to be a CF member to expect professional competence, and either due to real incompetence or the lack of transparency in the recruiting system, to a lot of people the interminable wait times at the CFRC come off like they're playing with you.  Or, if that was too long:



			
				Greymatters said:
			
		

> Look at this one guy here, saying he's been waiting for three years.  WTF?  If he meets minimum standards, get him trained.  Tell him he's suitable or not and let him move on with his life instead of jerking his chain forever.


+1

Senior NCO's, eh? 

Taking a shot at me for whining ( :crybaby rather than seeing this as constructive criticism is your loss.  It did, however, interest me in this topic enough to do some research.  I'm going to take this as independent confirmation:

[quote author=DND/CF Ombudsman]For the overwhelming majority of new applicants, the initial recruiting phase is their first experience with the Canadian Forces. If this experience is unsatisfactory for any reason, there is a strong possibility that an applicant will discontinue the process. This could – and does – result in the loss to the Canadian Forces of some of the most skilled and talented Canadians. At the same time, applicants that have had an unsatisfactory experience with the recruiting process are likely to discuss this with their friends, families and colleagues, all potential recruits possibly lost to Canada’s military. And, more broadly, this experience will very likely shape the way in which the discouraged applicant – and many others – views the Canadian Forces and the Government of Canada as a whole.[/quote]

You better believe I discussed it.  If the recruiters had initially projected a 3-year wait time I may not have taken such a negative view of the process.  Incidentally, there's already also a host of recommandations, none of which are indicated to be implemented.  The point is not to take a shot at recruiters, but that they need to start adapting an outdated bureacratic system to the modern world.  It should not be a civvy's job to jack up (more politely, 'remind') CF members to ensure their file gets through -- even if they stick around as I did, it gives a bad image to the CF.  It may not be the fault of the CFRC directly but that shouldn't be taken as an excuse for the agonizing wait time.  At some point you have to get on with your life, with the CF or without it.

However that time in my life has come and gone.  Good luck to you with the next one buddy. ^-^


----------



## Blindspot

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Look at this one guy here, saying he's been waiting for three years.  WTF?  If he meets minimum standards, get him trained.  Tell him he's suitable or not and let him move on with his life instead of jerking his chain forever.



When I joined in '88, I went in to the recruiter (Moss Park) a total of three times - one being to hand in my application. The second time, I did all my tests. The third, I had my interview and then I was sworn in on the spot. After I was sworn in, I waited ten minutes before my Lt. arrived and another ten minutes after that, I had a rifle in my hands, learning how to strip it - no exaggeration. That was in the month of April. By September, I had qualified for my trade.

My second go around I'm also nearing three years after initial application. A combination of the VFS, meds, two "sorry, your not deployable letters" and laser eye surgery have contributed to the long wait. I'm sure the process didn't have to be so long considering I could have been informed about all issues concerning my non-deployable status up front, and having to find out two years after the first of two medicals your eyesight isn't good enough. Compound this with the issue of a narrow window of opportunity to have all of your training done within one year and the frustration and anxiety mounts. I even had to reapply after my first non deployable letter because my file had been closed and then told that I shouldn't have reapplied!

One month to go before I submit my ophthalmologist's letter and I'm just wondering what they'll throw at me next.


----------



## Col.Steiner

kincanucks said:
			
		

> Since the fitness test is carried out at BMQ and BOMQ that is a moot point.  If the applicant is a Canadian citizen who has lived, worked or was educated in another country while a Canadian citizen, I see no problem in letting that person enrol and have the pre-sec continue while they are training. Anyone else should wait.



I agree with that, and that would fit my profile. Is there any plans on implementing this, or are things going to remain as is? I can understand that it takes time to do this background check, but I think there should be a list of countries that are on a 'safe' list, and ones that may not be UN. I think Japan poses absolutely no risk, and who hasn't taught there straight out of university? The only terrorist org. there would be the ultra-nationalistic one, which would automatically rule my white-ass out of membership. Common sense should be applied here.


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

This is the reason why we have to start appealing to our new reality when we recruit. This is having profound results for us too and why our military culture will change also.
Bold print added by me

Foreign-born population hits 75-year high
TAVIA GRANT 

Globe and Mail Update 

December 4, 2007 at 3:34 PM EST

TORONTO — One in every five Canadians is now foreign-born, the highest proportion in 75 years, a shift likely to have profound consequences for Canada's economic and cultural future.

*Canada is becoming ever more diverse*, Statistics Canada's 2006 census shows. The country's foreign-born population soared 13.6 per cent between 2001 and 2006 — four times higher than the Canadian-born population.

For the first time, the proportion of the foreign-born population who were born in Asia and the Middle East surpassed the proportion born in Europe. As of last year, more than half of immigrants continued to come from Asia, including the Middle East, but a growing number also came from the Americas and Africa.

And they're not just sticking to Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. A growing number of immigrants are going to the suburbs surrounding the big cities, along with smaller cities such as Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg and Ottawa, suggesting diversity is spreading across Canada.

Videos

The immigrant experience

New census data show how most of Canada's immigrants are flocking to Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver. Here's one story


Immigrants in rural Canada

Lorraine Hatch is one of the few - perhaps the only - visible minorities living in Hanover, a small community in southern Ontario

 “More and more are going out to these other municipalities and that has an impact on service delivery and language and education and economics of finding jobs and training,” said Anil Arora, director-general of the census program branch of Statistics Canada. “Policy makers and decision makers are going to have to take note of some of these stats that we've published today.”

By 2030, if the trends continue, Canada's population growth will stem solely from immigration, he added.

Canada continues to have a much higher proportion of foreign-born people than the U.S. and is second only to Australia in having the highest proportion among Western countries.

In Canada, the rate of growth of new immigrants is accelerating while in Australia, levels have stagnated in the past five years, a Statscan spokeswoman said, suggesting Canada may take the top spot in the years to come. 

Other findings from the report show: 

• In 1981, China ranked No. 10 as the main country of origin for new Canadians. Today, China is the top country of origin.

• One in five of the foreign-born population list Chinese languages as their mother tongue.

• The 6.2 million foreign-born people reported more than 200 countries of origin in the last census.

Statscan releases data on immigration, citizenship, language, mobility and migration every five years.


----------



## Greymatters

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> This is the reason why we have to start appealing to our new reality when we recruit. This is having profound results for us too and why our military culture will change also.



What parts of military culture do you see as changing?


----------



## Roy Harding

Greymatters said:
			
		

> What parts of military culture do you see as changing?



Hell - most of us who're in longer than a decade ago HAVE seen it.

Anybody here remember courses BEFORE the Human Rights Act?  Back when they could and did occasionally strike you, insult your parentage, etcetera?

Anybody here remember a Church Parade?

Remember when you weren't ALLOWED to read the CFAOs or QR&Os?

Just a couple of things that came immediately to mind.  The culture IS changing, HAS been changing, and will CONTINUE to change.  For the most part, it won't be noticeable to anyone still serving, as they'll be changing along with it.


----------



## Mike Baker

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> Anybody here remember courses BEFORE the Human Rights Act?  Back when they could and did occasionally strike you, insult your parentage, etcetera?


It was REALLY like that?!?! I knew there were some bad things that went on (i.e. shooting soldiers who never went over the walls in WW1, for example), but not in the more modern CF.


----------



## Roy Harding

Mike Baker said:
			
		

> It was REALLY like that?!?! I knew there were some bad things that went on (i.e. shooting soldiers who never went over the walls in WW1, for example), but not in the more modern CF.



It was really like that, as late as 1984 when I took my CLC (Combat Leader's Course - what the PLQ used to be, sorta) - the last course through the Battle School before the Human Rights Act took effect - the instructors knew what was coming and made hay while the sun still shined.  The striking bit wasn't common - but it wasn't rare either.


----------



## Mike Baker

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> It was really like that, as late as 1984 when I took my CLC (Combat Leader's Course - what the PLQ used to be, sorta) - the last course through the Battle School before the Human Rights Act took effect - the instructors knew what was coming and made hay while the sun still shined.  The striking bit wasn't common - but it wasn't rare either.


Wow, I never knew any of that before. Thanks for enlightening me Roy.


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

Greymatters said:
			
		

> What parts of military culture do you see as changing?



Well let's face it our culture largely represents the civilian mainstream culture that was...i.e. designed by and for white anglo saxon males. 
Our food services will probably change, our messes, our chapels, our holidays......etc etc.
We'll still have the same mandate but we will be different.
I'm not advocating this...I'm gazing into a crystal ball and I think that given the trends our civilian and military culture will change. As pointed out, it already has. There were no women on ships or in trenches when I joined...very few French Canadians in the Navy,,,,no visible minorities etc.


----------



## Roy Harding

I failed to mention the no women in Cbt or CSS units and ships.  That was a BIG change (and after my initial resistance to the idea, I believe a generally GOOD one).

I wouldn't want to predict what the future changes will be either - my crystal ball is currently on the fritz, but I do know there WILL be change - some subtle, some not so subtle.  And I agree with In Hoc Signo - the mandate won't change.


----------



## TCBF

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> I am of the opinion that we shouldn't be screening out applicants at the "barrack's gate" so to speak.   If they can walk to the gate under their own power, aren't coughing up a lung, can see the dotted line and sign on it then I think you should let'em in.  Put a hat and a pair of boots on him or her and start the new entrant becoming familiar with the RSM.  In the next 2-6 weeks both the new entrant and the CF will become very familiar with each other and determine whether or not there is a suitable relationship there.  In the mean time low grade security clearances, criminal and financial checks can be run.  At the end of the "probation" the candidate will know enough about the system to know if they want to stay and the system will know if the candidate is acceptable as is or is worth "improving" to meet requirements or even if it is worth "waiving" some requirements to get this candidate.
> 
> There is too much competition for good help these days.  Catch them while you can I say.  Don't give them one more excuse/reason NOT to join.
> 
> Adjust the training, and access to classified positions, accordingly.



- To do this under our current legislative umbrella invites medical pension fraud on a massive scale - which is exactly what is happening now.  We need a probationary initial contract .  If the person becomes injured during that time and cannot finish training - they are released.  If a previous medical/psych condition prevents them from completing trg - they are released.  Word the contract so VAC is the supporting program only after initial trg is completed - WCB before that.  We should not have untrainables milking the system for three years awaiting a med/psych release.


----------



## Greymatters

TCBF said:
			
		

> - To do this under our current legislative umbrella invites medical pension fraud on a massive scale - which is exactly what is happening now.  We need a probationary initial contract .  If the person becomes injured during that time and cannot finish training - they are released.  If a previous medical/psych condition prevents them from completing trg - they are released.  Word the contract so VAC is the supporting program only after initial trg is completed - WCB before that.  We should not have untrainables milking the system for three years awaiting a med/psych release.



An excellent suggestion...


----------



## Kirkhill

As Bane said recently "You learn something new everyday".

Thanks TCBF.


----------



## Greymatters

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> Hell - most of us who're in longer than a decade ago HAVE seen it.
> 
> Anybody here remember courses BEFORE the Human Rights Act?  Back when they could and did occasionally strike you, insult your parentage, etcetera?
> 
> Anybody here remember a Church Parade?
> 
> Remember when you weren't ALLOWED to read the CFAOs or QR&Os?
> 
> Just a couple of things that came immediately to mind.  The culture IS changing, HAS been changing, and will CONTINUE to change.  For the most part, it won't be noticeable to anyone still serving, as they'll be changing along with it.



All true stuff.  There was a huge change in 1985 as to what instructors could and could not do.  Although it hampered being able to weed out those who were 'weak of heart', it certainly got a grip on the odd instructor who had taken upon themselves a bit too much authority (and enjoyment).  But there were plenty of ways for an imaginative instructor to stay within the guidelines and still terrorize instill some discipline in their charges.

 I have no disagreement with the fact that the forces have changed and will changed.  However, I was wondering if you had any ideas of how the forces would change in the future?


----------



## DSB

We have church parade every year.


----------



## Panzer Grenadier

DSB said:
			
		

> We have church parade every year still.



My unit calls it "Carol Service".


----------



## TCBF

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> It was really like that, as late as 1984 when I took my CLC (Combat Leader's Course - what the PLQ used to be, sorta) - the last course through the Battle School before the Human Rights Act took effect - the instructors knew what was coming and made hay while the sun still shined.  The striking bit wasn't common - but it wasn't rare either.



- Brings back a lot of memories - not all of them good.


----------



## retiredgrunt45

Yes I can remember a few "fista cuffs" behind the wood shed between a Snr NCO and a Jnr NCO. No names no pack drill. May the best man walk away. This happened rarely, but it did happen on occasion.

Then the Snr Nco's found out that extra duties were more effective. My favorite was stoppage of leave, until the WO on duty measures your color dogs with a ruler and finds out there not straight. Add a few more show parades on for that weekend.  

Nothing like sitting in the BOS's office on friday nights for next 3 months working of 10 extras answering the phone. Or driving the drunk bus and cleaning up a pile of vomit from the back of the van, after picking up a bunch of drunks from one of the messes.

All this because I was 10 minutes late for morning roll call, or it may have been my excuse. "My alarm didn't go of sir". You never, ever say that to a CSM.  It's all I could think of at the time.

Oh how I miss those days  :'(


----------



## Lumber

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> And CADPAT for NAVY personnel, that will attract gung ho kids who are afraid to join the army, but want to look cool!



Not to mention, the pleated NCD pants ride up your ass. Maybe mine just arn't tailored right...but still, I wear army CADPAT twice a week here at the collge and would love to get to wear something as comfortable and "cool" looking when I actually start serving full time in the navy.


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

NCdt Lumber said:
			
		

> Not to mention, the pleated NCD pants ride up your ***. Maybe mine just arn't tailored right...but still, I wear army CADPAT twice a week here at the collge and would love to get to wear something as comfortable and "cool" looking when I actually start serving full time in the navy.



When you're actually serving in the Navy aboard a ship you'll probably change your mind. Clothing on board ship is meant to be about safety and comfort over a long period of time probaby sitting in one place....not whether it's "cool" or not.


----------



## rtangri

It would be great if the recruiting centres could also approve officer on their own (obviously they still need to do all the med, security clearance, etc.), and work within their quotas. It sucks having to wait for a selection board. They should also try and open some more training areas across Canada. Also, high school recruiting booths. Oh I think that should do it. Wouldnt hurt to have a mandatory response time aswell, as in, you are guaranteed an answer within 5 or 6 weeks of all applications handed in.


----------



## George Wallace

rtangri said:
			
		

> It would be great if the recruiting centres could also approve officer on their own (obviously they still need to do all the med, security clearance, etc.), and work within their quotas. It sucks having to wait for a selection board. They should also try and open some more training areas across Canada. Also, high school recruiting booths. Oh I think that should do it. Wouldnt hurt to have a mandatory response time aswell, as in, you are guaranteed an answer within 5 or 6 weeks of all applications handed in.



There is so much wrong with this post I wouldn't know where to start.


----------



## dimsum

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> When you're actually serving in the Navy aboard a ship you'll probably change your mind. Clothing on board ship is meant to be about safety and comfort over a long period of time probaby sitting in one place....not whether it's "cool" or not.


 

Just had to add....being a MARS officer trainee, don't expect to be sitting much (at least on the bridge.)  Invest in some comfy insoles for your seaboots.


----------



## rtangri

Care to elaborate Wallace?


----------



## aesop081

George Wallace said:
			
		

> There is so much wrong with this post I wouldn't know where to start.





			
				rtangri said:
			
		

> Care to elaborate Wallace?



Oh. i'll take a stab....



			
				rtangri said:
			
		

> It sucks having to wait for a selection board.



 :crybaby:  There are selection boards for everything. When i remustered i had to wait a year for the selection board to sit. Deal with it. Its not a situation unique to the military either........



> They should also try and open some more training areas across Canada.



And exactly where are we going to get the money for this ? Where would the staff come from ?



> Also, high school recruiting booths. Oh I think that should do it.



Have you not seen in the news what happens every time we try to go to a college or university ?



> Wouldnt hurt to have a mandatory response time aswell, as in, you are guaranteed an answer within 5 or 6 weeks of all applications handed in.



Since every applicant comes with a unique set of baggage, we could make " Nothing yet we are still waiting for _____________ to come back from Ottawa" an apropriate maditory response. Expecting a firm "yes" or "no" after an arbitrary amount of time is ROTL.


----------



## medaid

rtangri said:
			
		

> Care to elaborate Wallace?



Read more type less. The CF recruiting time and period is no slower or longer then any other Federal or Provincial employment. The RCMP routinely takes up to 6months to reply to your application or before even giving you an offer, why don't people complain to the RCMP? To tell them that they need to change their standards? That they need to give mandatory reply? 

Give me a break.  :


----------



## TCBF

MedTech said:
			
		

> Read more type less. The CF recruiting time and period is no slower or longer then any other Federal or Provincial employment. The RCMP routinely takes up to 6months to reply to your application or before even giving you an offer, why don't people complain to the RCMP? To tell them that they need to change their standards? That they need to give mandatory reply?
> 
> Give me a break.  :



- We are not the Feds or the Horse Police.

- As I have stated before: In the mid eighties we picked up a batch off the 707 at Greenwood, bussed them to Cornwallis and as we gave them the 'greeting' speech in the small drill hall I learned that one recruit was still hung over from the drunk he was on when he had walked into the recruiting center FIVE DAYS before being sent to CFRS Cornwallis.  Five days.


----------



## rtangri

Fair enough, I guess compared to RCMP and other governmental institutions  there are long waiting times, but I think everyone here agrees there needs to be a smaller wait time. As for college and university protests to military recruiting, i am sorry if I offend anyone, but SCREW them. The army shouldnt be being pushed around by a bunch of hippie influenced students. I am the U of Toronto (mississauga) and trust me I here it all day all week about how crazy and badly-influenced I am by Bush because I support the war on Terror (afghanistan). 

Definately, tons of cash needs to be distributed responsibly to the recruiting personnel, and I DO BELIEVE they should be given at least more a little bit more power in the selection process. I do hope though one day more regional selection boards are adopted. Just a personal opinion. As for Canadian training centres (for the military recruits), definately one or two needs to be made to accomodate more recruits. High school and university students(like myself) deserve the right to access to a recruiter on campus. Your always going to have the crowd that doesnt like this and doesnt like that, I mean come on, they dont even like the fact that the word "fight" is in the military commercial- GIVE ME A BREAK>

anyways I am anticipating some responses to my hot-headed response, but I'm only trying to give an opinion from a citizen (who is on the merit list praying to get in as an OCdT) who just has his nations best wishes in his heart. GO CANADA


----------



## medaid

TCBF said:
			
		

> - We are not the Feds or the Horse Police.



We ARE Federal. The Canadian Forces IS a Federal Department.


----------



## TCBF

MedTech said:
			
		

> We ARE Federal. The Canadian Forces IS a Federal Department.



- DND is.  DND has to follow national hiring and firing policies.  The CF - although subordinate to DND - is allowed exceptions.  Some of those exceptions would facillitate a massive recruiting campaign similar to those in the last century.  The missing link here is the over-bureaucratization of the entire selection and training system by the people in it.  The engine is busted, and no one is accountable.


----------



## BC Old Guy

Believe me - the CF has to follow national legislation, government regulations and has set up a number of CF regulations that the recruiters have to follow.  Many of these are not set by the recruiters, but by the various organizations within the CF.

There are a lot of issues with increasing the number of recruits enrolled during a year.  A major issue is indeed buildings, but it requires years to get new buildings built, or to shift activities from existing buildings.

Another big issue is finding the instructors to teach the courses.  The current expansion is occurring during a time of increased number of operational tasks, and a time of increased retirements as people decide to retire after 3/9/20/25/30+ years of service, while there is a gap in experience due to the reduced recruiting during the 90's.

The recruiters would like to be in more places as well - but there are limits on the number of recruiters that are available.  Over half of the recruiting workforce are Reservists, and there are more jobs for the Reservist than there are trained people looking for Cl B and Cl C jobs.


----------



## aesop081

rtangri said:
			
		

> As for Canadian training centres (for the military recruits), definately one or two needs to be made to accomodate more recruits.



Again kid.....we dont have enough people to be instructors now , having more training centers would just make a big problem larger. Also, once these new centers for recruits of yours have graduted new people, what do you think we have ?

Thats right, more BMQ qualified people that have to sit there and wait while we pay them for nothing. Do you know why ? Because the trade schools are short instructors and facilities too.

It's prettty simple for you to say "add more schools" isnt it ?


----------



## medaid

TCBF said:
			
		

> - DND is.  DND has to follow national hiring and firing policies.  The CF - although subordinate to DND - is allowed exceptions.  Some of those exceptions would facillitate a massive recruiting campaign similar to those in the last century.  The missing link here is the over-bureaucratization of the entire selection and training system by the people in it.  The engine is busted, and no one is accountable.



We'll basically agree. LOL We are in the end a Federal agency no matter how much we dislike it. We are Federal even though we are subordinate to DND. 

http://canada.gc.ca/depts/major/depind-eng.html#M

I agree with the over-bureaucratization that we seem to have put ourselves into, and indeed it is busted but those in charge do no think that it is. It's unfortunate, but that's the facts. 

Our efforts at Recruiting are lame to say the least. Honestly. I have seen recruiting strategies from the US and ours pale by comparison. I know that we must factor in geographic, cultural and societal demographics into account when recruiting, however we just seem to be doing a really poor job at it in general. The recruiting videos lack the supposed "umph" that the US .mil ads have. I will honestly say that every single time I see an US military TV ad it gets my heart pumping. The visual message and communication, the audio visual touches is what really sets US and Canadian military ads apart. 

Now, another great down fall that we have as the CF is that our ads attempt to communicate TOO much into one short clip! The US .mil ads has one theme, one branch, and one slogan.

US Army - Army Strong http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkdPfbOp_8g
US Air Force - Above All / Cross Into The Blue http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_h1ozsCPjok&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FTYKT4w-zc 
US Navy - Accelerate Your Life http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fzK6EYWEo8&feature=related
US Marines - The Few The Proud http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiVP9aOfOQM&feature=related
US National Guard - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdT7njoka68&feature=related

So as you can see from all of the above posted videos, although they are only a small collection of the countless videos, ever evolving, put out by the US .mil public affairs and recruitment, they have one clear message in all of their videos "JOIN US". They're not afraid to compete amongst the branches. Why? Because they KNOW that different people are drawn to different things. They see something that interests them? They'll go and apply for that branch, that service, that MOS. They don't care if John #1 saw the USMC video and decided to join the Army. They know that John #2 would join the Marines just as willingly if he saw the US Navy ad. They don't care. They compete, they foster, and they display. 

So... what do we have?

Canadian Forces 

This is what we have had recently. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZhGx3AREcw You'll see that it starts with the Navy... then the Army... in A'stan... with BFAs... and TW... and what the hell?! Back to the Navy... then SAR Techs... then Army supposedly clearing a building in A'Stan... then Evac into... oh wait what was that? Was that... an LSVW Amb?!  Then SAR Tech...

Do you see the problem here? There is NO clear message. There is NOT a single JOB that's really highlighted. Not a single element that's been separated or stood out. It was one big MASH of STUFF. Sure the US .mil ads are mash of STUFF as well, but they all center around THEIR element, and they SHOW IT. 

Then there was this one from quite a few years back that was equally mishmashed and equally bad. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K69jwRkm04&feature=related

Our recruiting ads have NO clear message. They are NOT designed to show anyone what we do, they are designed to make our jobs look even more confusing. 

You want to create a CF video that shows caring, aid giving and help? Why not look at this ad for example?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YFUfuglke0&feature=related


The other problem is the lack of community involvement or connection. In the US the and in the UK they have display teams that appear at different events. Large fairs, community events, state and county events and so much more. Want an example of it?

USMC Silent Drill Platoon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y90UPLLo6nY You hear the crowd cheering in the background? Now how many of those in the crowd do you think are ex-servicemen/women? Marines? Soldiers? Airman/woman? Current Marines? Future Marines? 

US Army Drill Display Team: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dxTBK7jI1s&feature=related 

US Navy and US Airforce ALL have drill display teams such as the two seen above. 

What about our British cousins from across the pond? 

The Royal Marines Display Team: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvfowwVvwO8&feature=related

They are a public relations display that goes to events and puts on a show about the RM and answers questions afterwards. Now do I think what they've done is really suitable for us? No. I don't think so at all. 

What I am getting at is this. The current method of attraction has got to be stepped up. Op Connection is in more ways then one a failure. The amount of money spent on it is ridiculous, but the out comes are poor. From my own personal participation I've seen local units having to SCROUNGE and I mean SCROUNGE people to fill in the displays. I have seen units refuse or unwilling to send people there in general. Two years ago when I was at Op Connection at the PNE we had the NBP on display. It was a HUGE success. The display area was optimal and the way things were set up allowed for the maximum amount of exposure and information exchange. The RegF and the PRes were both there recruiting heavily and I must say had by and large some success. The regiments that were in attendance got their soldiers and those who weren't there... well lost out. The Navy and the Airforce had siplays as wella nd really represented the CF as a whole well. 

Compared to last year, the turn out was poor from the PRes side of the house. I worked many, many hours while some units refused to provide members, or had none they could spare. It had such a low turn out rate on the PRes side that the Bde HQ staff were ordered to participate in the event AFTER their work day. 

What I can't seem to understand why a crucial and quite important part of the CF is being ignored? Why units view it as a CHORE rather then as a pride thing to attend public functions to put their units into the spot light. To allow their brothers and sisters in other regiments, and other branches, other elements and other arms to SHINE?

I hope most of you understand what I'm trying to get at. We need a serious kick in the 6 to get the campaigning and public relations down pat. I will tell you from my own experience that when I went to recruit health care professionals they were by and large unwilling to join the CF because of rumors, not knowing what we do, and because of the lack of opportunities available in the CF. Now please don't tell me that we have lots to offer, because we ALL know that we have LIMITED things to offer to professionals. People who can make 2 times or 3 times the amount having a private practice would want to come to the CF why? What do we offer them? Pay? Nope. Experience? Not really... other then trauma, but any EP in a large Emerge will experience that if not most of it. Courses? Most hospitals pay for many of the advanced courses and many of the physicians out there make enough to cover any course they want. So... using the health care professionals as an example... what do we offer?

........?

So let's set up a display team. Sure we have the Skyhawks and the Snow Birds... but... so what? Can anyone walk up to them and say hi? To ask them questions? To see their air craft? To listen to stories? To not have to wait in line for hours to get merely a glimpse of them at an Air Show? 

Each Bde should have a display team for the PRes. They should be Class B soldiers coming from all walks of life. Different MOC, ranks and regiments. Bring back the Scarlets, bring back the Blues. Get authorization to wear them again, because the DEUs are NOT cutting it for the Army. It should be a joint effort for the Bde because community involvement, is good PR and good PR = higher likelihood of recruitment. 

Want to make things exciting? Mount a Guard at all the Legislatures. Why not? Why shouldn't the Citizen Soldiers of the area be allowed to mount a guard outside of their Province's seat of power? Now this is a suggestion for Display and Community connection ONLY, and NOT to be misinterpreted. 

Want to include the youths of today? Get Cadets to mount a guard with the members. Why not? 

Why not have a Drill Competition amongst the Regimens and Units? Have it in a place where the public are encouraged to view and participate and watch. Why not? 

Before you go into "funding" and other "considerations" consider this. Every time a yuppy or liberal nut says something about us we remain silent. We don't go forth to prove that they are wrong. We do not attempt to educate the public, all we do is sit amongst our selves and rant. So why doesn't the CoC move us INTO the community to expose us to the public and the public to us? 

Keep in mind that we were ALL civies once. We KNOW how they think, and we KNOW what they're like. They don't know what we are at all, and they don't know what we do. They are scared. So put down our masks and smile at the people who we are here to protect and serve. I am not suggesting that this should be taken as a priority over a unit's operational tempo or end state. However, hearts and minds and recruiting is in many ways MORE important then our mission in Afghanistan.

Why you ask? Because if we don't do a good job on the Home Front recruiting, representing our brethren overseas, they are not going to feel the support from the nation. They are not going to come home to a nice of an atmosphere as they would if we helped people understand. PAF cells should shift focus AWAY from damage control and into preemptive strike. Get ahead of the yuppies for once, don't let them dictate our community involvement. Don't let them dictate our goals and our methods to achieve them. Move beyond the small battles of hippies and move into the overall war of national understanding and acceptance.


----------



## Gager

We'd be better off focusing our efforts on retention. We don't have enough instructors and the more recruits you bring in the more waiting around they do at more of an expense.

Be selective and increase training expenditure for existing soldiers. You won't have quantity but you'll have quality. You don't need to keep bringing guys in if the ones already here are satisfied and not looking elsewhere cause they think the Army is bullshit.


----------



## aesop081

General said:
			
		

> You don't need to keep bringing guys in



Quite the contrary. Not bringing in new people in a steady stream is what got us in this mess in the first place. The solution is to find the rigth ballance between recruiting and retention.


----------



## Teddy Ruxpin

> Compared to last year, the turn out was poor from the PRes side of the house. I worked many, many hours while some units refused to provide members, or had none they could spare. It had such a low turn out rate on the PRes side that the Bde HQ staff were ordered to participate in the event AFTER their work day.
> 
> What I can't seem to understand why a crucial and quite important part of the CF is being ignored? Why units view it as a CHORE rather then as a pride thing to attend public functions to put their units into the spot light. To allow their brothers and sisters in other regiments, and other branches, other elements and other arms to SHINE?



Just an aside, the PRes in LFWA has _hundreds_ of soldiers deployed on TF 1-08 and conducting assigned priority individual training.  The well is dry pers-wise and you have to pick what you can assign people to.  It _is_ a chore...


----------



## geo

Ummm... LFQA had something like 550+/- doing predeployment training prior to TF 3/07 (ROTO4)
similar numbers for TF 1/09

Ensuring that the right people are sent over is never easy but, it's doable


----------



## Jed

I don't know about the other Areas but in my opinion , for LFWA, the system is broke. It must feel like we are the CSA trying to get soldiers to fight on during the US Civil War.

Improved retention won't cut it. Recruiting the way we are doing it now will not cut it. Some major 'outside the box' thinking is required just like it was required before both World Wars. Unless there is a sudden ureeka moment in the bureaucracy elite admitting that there is a huge problem and that drastic measures are needed, probably expensive and not politically correct , I see no improvement in sight.

General Sam Hughes may have picked a bad rifle but he sure knew how to bring in soldier recruits.


----------



## Old Sweat

What outside the box solutions might you suggest?


----------



## X-mo-1979

geo said:
			
		

> Ensuring that the right people are sent over is never easy but, it's doable



I don't believe so.Certain tours are known as the "left overs" mostly on the jnr NCM/backbone side of the house.You can kick a POS off your tour,however you know he's going to be deploying the next year.


----------



## Jed

Old Sweat, I wish I had some solutions to the problem. I liked Med Tech's willingness to go for it in the good ideas department. 

This is a major, complicated problem that has to involve the bureaucracy significantly shifting its direction. As we all know this can not happen quickly without upsetting a lot of routine process.
i
First, thing is to clearly identify the problem - We must immediately grow the CF, 2nd - then we must train them to an acceptable std, 3rd - then we want to provide incentives to retain all good folks we have.

1. ID the problem 

Joe Canuck voter has to really see the need for more troops, He then has to be willing to take money from his wallet to assist in funding. He then has to be quite vocal with the politians on how he wants his taxes spent.

Young Jane and Joe Canuck have to then say, hey, the CF is a great organization to belong too. They do a lot of good things for the country and people generally see you as a good guy and , as an added bonus get to do really cool things, like jump out of airplanes or fly them etc.

 We have to get them in the door and signed up quickly. We have to do fairly quick triage to sort out who can cut it, what professionals we must retain, and then we have to get them doing real interesting training as soon as possible.

If we did this then retention is a piece of cake. 

The system has to be more risky wrt sensitivity of upsetting individuals. It also has to put good money into real interesting training. It also has to honestly tell people about the interesting training and why this good training is very, very important for Joe Canuck and young Janey and Joey Canuck, new CF members.

I wish it was a requirement for anyone wanting to be a Candaian VOTING citizen, to serve in the CF or the public service for a year. Maybe, we would have more buy in from the people.


----------



## aesop081

Jed said:
			
		

> Old Sweat, I wish I had some solutions to the problem. I liked Med Tech's willingness to go for it in the good ideas department.
> 
> This is a major, complicated problem that has to involve the bureaucracy significantly shifting its direction. As we all know this can not happen quickly without upsetting a lot of routine process.
> i
> First, thing is to clearly identify the problem - We must immediately grow the CF, 2nd - then we must train them to an acceptable std, 3rd - then we want to provide incentives to retain all good folks we have.
> 
> 1. ID the problem
> 
> Joe Canuck voter has to really see the need for more troops, He then has to be willing to take money from his wallet to assist in funding. He then has to be quite vocal with the politians on how he wants his taxes spent.
> 
> Young Jane and Joe Canuck have to then say, hey, the CF is a great organization to belong too. They do a lot of good things for the country and people generally see you as a good guy and , as an added bonus get to do really cool things, like jump out of airplanes or fly them etc.
> 
> We have to get them in the door and signed up quickly. We have to do fairly quick triage to sort out who can cut it, what professionals we must retain, and then we have to get them doing real interesting training as soon as possible.
> 
> If we did this then retention is a piece of cake.
> 
> The system has to be more risky wrt sensitivity of upsetting individuals. It also has to put good money into real interesting training. It also has to honestly tell people about the interesting training and why this good training is very, very important for Joe Canuck and young Janey and Joey Canuck, new CF members.
> 
> I wish it was a requirement for anyone wanting to be a Candaian VOTING citizen, to serve in the CF or the public service for a year. Maybe, we would have more buy in from the people.



Nothing new there. So realisticaly, whats you solution ?


----------



## daftandbarmy

Basically, IMHO, we've got top stop treating our military like it's still a peacetime force. 

Most urban centres with the highest populations have zero regular force presence in the community. The militia armouries are the traditional connection between the community and Canada's Army. The private sector has it figured out: sales success is all about 'location, location, location'. Why not treat this war like the major conflict it really is and, like WW1 and 2, mobilize a few reserve units across the country, staff them up with regulars and recruit and train locally like hell (using modern marketing techniques) so that 'your local unit can go defeat the Taliban'? I dunno, call it the '100 mile' solution or something - act locally, soldier globally.

My experience is that most people in cities are not anti-military and, as the recent Olympics proved, are really very proud of our national institutions and quietly but strongly patriotic. They're just not sure where it is or how to get involved. 

Let's go Canada! (Oops, wrong recruiting poster slogan...)


----------



## medaid

My solution would be to create a cell under me, give me a reasonable budget, cooperation from all CFRC/D and Local Units and let the fun begin.

I would first review the trend and demographics of recruiting. See if there was a spike in activity after the old crappy recruiting vids have been aired. Conduct a quick survey as to whether Canadians thought they were effective. The next step is to increase exposure, while at the same time develop more effective AV ads. A trip to the US to learn from our counterparts would give us a fairly good idea on how to more effectively recruit and retain. Then return to infuse these ideas into the changing system.

Most of you may laugh all you want when you read I had said put a cell under me. Go ahead, because seriously, I can't do any worse then what is happening right now, which is NOTHING. I can draw everything up and present my ideas if ONLY someone would LISTEN. 

We need to get it into our heads NOW then Training/Retention/Recruiting is what holds a military force together. It's not fancy equipment, cooler lookibg bangsticks or new combat clothing. Trust me I think they're all very important, but with out new troops to fight and use the equipment, they'll just sit idle. Without good training to train these new troops they'll just sit at bases like they are now. An absolute waste of time and resources. Without retention for the good instructors and leaders you'll have no one to train your troops to fire weapon systems, to do drill or to appear before the public. 

Things need to change, with the proper suport from Commanders at ALL levels and on the Political side of the house, we can make those changes. We can build a stronger and more efficient Canadian forces.


----------



## AlphaQup

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/78906/post-744126.html#msg744126
^Thread summarizing the report. Makes you cringe but they're problems that must be addressed. 

Made a thread a week or so ago detailing these very problems that were brought up by the Office of the Auditor General.
Report:
http://www.oag-bvg.gc.ca/internet/English/aud_ch_oag_200605_2_e_14959.html#def2


----------



## dapaterson

MedTech said:
			
		

> My solution would be to create a cell under me, give me a reasonable budget, cooperation from all CFRC/D and Local Units and let the fun begin.



Ah yes, "When I'm in charge, all will be perfect"



> I would first review the trend and demographics of recruiting. See if there was a spike in activity after the old crappy recruiting vids have been aired. Conduct a quick survey as to whether Canadians thought they were effective.



Already done within the recruiting group.



> The next step is to increase exposure, while at the same time develop more effective AV ads. A trip to the US to learn from our counterparts would give us a fairly good idea on how to more effectively recruit and retain. Then return to infuse these ideas into the changing system.



Do you know the federal restrictions on advertising?  Do you know the policies on AV products?  Do you know of the cultural differences between soldiers in the US and those in Canada?  Their motives for joining?  The US experience right now is ever increasing bonuses for retention, and lowering of entry standards... hardly a long-term solution to our problems.

The bottlenecks right now are not in the recruiting system.  There's in the DP1 training system, more than anywhere.  The capacity at the CFRCs and St Jean outstrip what the DP1 schools can produce - so we end up with PAT platoons.

Most of the problems we have are because people focus on a single part of the system "Fix Recruiting" - so we bring in too many of the wrong trades, and don't ensure sufficient capacity in the schools for follow-on.  We need real leadership to fix the problems in a holistic manner - not news bite leadership that announces facile solutions to non-existent problems.


----------



## medaid

Hey, I never said it would be "perfect" but I am at least willing to try. If you've got an idea, shoot. Let's hear it. Because the current system is broken, in all the parts.

If CFRG has conducted studies, how come it wasn't know or publicized? Sampke population isn't a sample if they stood around NDHQ to ask a few by-standers questions.

Hey you got me on the restrictions and policy, but guess what? What I'm suggesting and asking for isn't that much more then the current crap. Just needs to be refined and retuned. If that's violating some policy which can be changed, then I can't see how the current crap got through it the first time.

I do know the cultural differences. IKve recruited before, and I have many friends who are current or ex US .mil and some of them Canadians. So please explain to me why many Canadians wanted to go south to join the Marines, the Army or the Navy instead of our own? 

So what's wrong with trying to retain? Do you seriously think that all CF members join to stay? Get over that. Majority of the members joining now aren't looking for careers. Heck over 90% of applicants then went before my desk said that the CF was NOT their long term goal PRes or RegF. They want the experience and then go to Law School, Med School, RT school, Policing, PMC. The same happens in the US, sure, but their military is larger, more robust and can take the high turnover rate. Can we? No. Wit every tour we're losing experienced pers who've had enough. Sure you're going to say "well that's too bad. We don't need them anyways" but have any of you ever thought that this member with how ever many years of experience is now walking out the door when we could've found out what bugged him/her attempt to fix it and utilize them to mentor and train? 

We've got a shortage of Inst right now because we're stretched too thin. We're NOT retaining, and we're NOT replenishing. WAKE UP people! The people who we SGOULD be worried about but isn't is our Junior members. Who really gives a damn about the Sgt and WO? They're more likely to stay in because it's a career. But what about the Cpl? MCpl who are young, filled with piss and vinegar who can now apply to any other Federal job, get paid better, and do more? Without the junior Inst and leaders, retaining them to train the next batch we've done nothing. 

I never said recruiting was the only problem. It's a three sided approach. Recruit, Train and Retain.

Also, please tell me what trades are the wrong trades? There IS no wrong trade. Every job matters, and every job reflects the CF. So tell me, what's a wrong trade?

DP1 can't handle it? Why? Because Gagetown is the center of "excellence"? Come on. We've had multiple training schools before all over the country. We can do it again. Not enought staff? Well then, start retaining them then. See the vicious cycle? What's being done about it? Nothing. You think handing out money's bad? Well that's better then handing out bodybags because your unit couldn't be reinforced.


----------



## medaid

Real leadership? Like... the one that think retension is not worth while? Like the one that thinks all members want to stay in the CF despite the archaic thought patterns and regulations that prohibit simple things like oh... I don't know unblousing boots? Gimmme a break. Maybe wild ideas is what we need right now, because conservative and safe ideas have gotten us no where.


----------



## blacktriangle

We need to start putting strong, physically fit troops who look good in uniform in these types of displays. On top of that, these troops need to be kinda sorta smart, witty and speak well with people. I've gone in civi clothes to places where the CF had a display and pretended to be interested, only to be met by some fat dude, old guy, skinny xbox nerd, fresh out of BMQ reserve private etc...sorry guys but we need to look cool. I don't belong at those displays, I have a face only a mother could love. I accept it.  ;D So send in some some people who look tough, and talk well. Make Canadians want to show their pride...


----------



## aesop081

popnfresh said:
			
		

> We need to start putting strong, physically fit troops who look good in uniform in these types of displays.



We also need them in the CFRCs.......but who wants to give up that new LDA eh ?

Guys are reluctant to take static postings....it doesnt help the overall cause.


----------



## George Wallace

........and NOT "the opportunity to travel".


----------



## wolfshadow

popnfresh said:
			
		

> We need to start putting strong, physically fit troops who look good in uniform in these types of displays. On top of that, these troops need to be kinda sorta smart, witty and speak well with people. I've gone in civi clothes to places where the CF had a display and pretended to be interested, only to be met by some fat dude, old guy, skinny xbox nerd, fresh out of BMQ reserve private etc...sorry guys but we need to look cool. I don't belong at those displays, I have a face only a mother could love. I accept it.  ;D So send in some some people who look tough, and talk well. Make Canadians want to show their pride...



Or some of our nice looking Ladies in Uniform ...  I noticed that the Ladies in Uniform at the CNE always get lots of attention.


----------



## blacktriangle

wolfshadow said:
			
		

> Or some of our nice looking Ladies in Uniform ...  I noticed that the Ladies in Uniform at the CNE always get lots of attention.



I hate to even admit that there are good looking women in the CF because I prefer to look at them soldiers just like me etc and most are! But I will say there are some very good looking, fit and professional/intelligent females working with us, so we might as well have them show up too! But really, I just don't think 300lb overweighters should be recruiting in their cadpat ponchos. I've seen it, and I thought it was a joke. 

and MedTech is right- I almost got out because of how slow stuff moves and how hard I had to fight to get to do good training...if a Cpl/Captain or up leaves because they are bored, think of the lost investment if they were willing to stay if they actually got the chance to do cooler crap.


----------



## medaid

Chucking money at anyone is not the way to go. Offer career advancement, relative trg. Specialized trg and so forth. I know we already do but it is arduous and slow process. Include bonuses don't get me wrong. Sure pay a retention bonus but offer other things. We have limited postings to places right now, but as our intercooperation with other forgeign powers go, offer more exchange postings.Give people the gucci courses such as para as more openings occur and as  our airborne powers increase.

If a guy decides to re-up give him his next pay incentive. 
Be considerate to family and housing. Get MORE housing! 

In the US there are courses galore. We do too, it's time to open some up. Small things can keep people on baord. Minimize the chicken poop, and less sitting around. Believe it or not the majority of members that I've spoken to who've gotten out all say the same thing, too much sitting around.


----------



## Donaill

popnfresh said:
			
		

> We need to start putting strong, physically fit troops who look good in uniform in these types of displays. On top of that, these troops need to be kinda sorta smart, witty and speak well with people. I've gone in civi clothes to places where the CF had a display and pretended to be interested, only to be met by some fat dude, old guy, skinny xbox nerd, fresh out of BMQ reserve private etc...sorry guys but we need to look cool. I don't belong at those displays, I have a face only a mother could love. I accept it.  ;D So send in some some people who look tough, and talk well. Make Canadians want to show their pride...



  Physical stature is not as important as attitude.  If you truly enjoy your job and the people you work with that will show when you talk to people. I am an NEt and I have been on a few events to provide info about the trade and the navy. I love my job and really like the people I have met. That shows when I talk to people.  Send the people from the trades that you need the numbers for. Send NETs to attract the tech types. Send stokers to get stokers and the infanteers to generate interest inthe infantry.


----------



## aesop081

MedTech said:
			
		

> Offer career advancement,



We have plenty of that.....I remustered and made Sgt in less than 3 years.



> Give people the gucci courses such as para as more openings occur and as  our airborne powers increase.



The capacity to run those courses are usualy limited because the resources for them are employed on things with higher priority. If we have the need for all those people to be para qualed then so be it but if its just a retention thing then its not useful......



> Be considerate to family and housing. Get MORE housing!



You got to see Stephen ask ask him for money for that........



> In the US there are courses galore.



Of course there is, they have close to 3 million people in uniform.........



> We do too, it's time to open some up.



Please tell me what courses need to be "openned up"


----------



## wolfshadow

popnfresh said:
			
		

> I hate to even admit that there are good looking women in the CF because I prefer to look at them soldiers just like me etc and most are! But I will say there are some very good looking, fit and professional/intelligent females working with us, so we might as well have them show up too! But really, I just don't think 300lb overweighters should be recruiting in their cadpat ponchos. I've seen it, and I thought it was a joke.
> 
> and MedTech is right- I almost got out because of how slow stuff moves and how hard I had to fight to get to do good training...if a Cpl/Captain or up leaves because they are bored, think of the lost investment if they were willing to stay if they actually got the chance to do cooler crap.



The Folks at the CNE put on an interesting show.  I had quite a good chat with a couple of Coyote crewmen last year... Chatted about the Coyote for almost a half an hour.  I didn't have that much time this year, but I definately noticed a couple of ladies in fatigues wandering around, and one doing some shopping in the Stitches area...She had quite a few eyes following her.


----------



## Jed

CDN Aviator: As I said I don't have a solution, this is a tough problem. The solution will have to be dramatic , from the top , and very risky.

Something like a government offer of employment for the Public Service or Military service for a year with potential to expand into various careers and receive training and some other carrot to assist immediate retention. It would have to be something that captures the imagination like say in the turn of the century when they let people come in and homestead free land. All they had to do was prove it up.

After the war many Vet's were given a shot of some good farmland.

Of course in today's lawyered up world I don't know how you would make that work.


----------



## Jarnhamar

CSA 105 said:
			
		

> So what's your retention strategy?



-Realize that the STFU private and do what you're told mentality doesn't work as well as it used to.

-NCMs are much more educated than they used to be. Treat them as such.

-Have those career officers listen juggle and help out soldiers instead of seemingly posting people via dart board method.

-Work to avoid soldiers sitting on their asses in the platoon or company lines all day waiting for 4 pm to roll around.

-Throw out the recruiting system and rebuild it from the bottom up. Example A reserve infantry soldier going on his 3rd tour heading to afghanistan in an infantry role shouldn't find out that he is on a medical catagory and unable to transfer to the reg force infantry (yet still go to afghanistan??) when he is doing his pre-tour medical. 

-We should figure out a way to get people on course within a matter of months and not leave them waiting until they loose interest 11 months down the road. Don't have the Instructors? Find them. More PLQ courses.  Make a protessional training carade. Maybe when a battlegroup returns home from a  tour their NCOs (or even half) teach for a year?

-GO through all t members on medical catagories and re-evaluate them. If their just destroyed and can't soldier anymore then either release them with benifits or put them in a job that's not blocking someones career progression.

-Go through all the vast members of the reserve world who are on medical catagories. Same thing as the regs, if someone is just destroyed and can't do anything then why have them in the army? Respectfully, pat them n the back give them benifits and remove them from the pool.
[Now that's not to say if someone is injured just cut them out of the CF. Far from it.  What I'm talking about is the people sitting back working the system collecting the money but not even attempting to get better or play with everyone else.]


----------



## aesop081

Jed said:
			
		

> CDN Aviator: As I said I don't have a solution, this is a tough problem. The solution will have to be dramatic , from the top , and very risky.



Well, i'm assuming that you are a smart person. Everyone knows that we have these problems so that not the ....well...problem. Scratch you head and come up with something that is feasable.



			
				Flawed Design said:
			
		

> NCMs are much more educated than they used to be. Treat them as such.



I have had those "more educated" NCMs.....i wish they would have behaved as such.



> Have those career officers listen juggle and help out soldiers instead of *seemingly* posting people via dart board method.



Key word highlighted.


----------



## Jarnhamar

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I have had those "more educated" NCMs.....i wish they would have behaved as such.


Excellent point, I overlooked that.
When someone is an idiot an beyond redemption punt them from the CF.
When a recruit is a total bag of shit and not going to benefit the CF kick them off course.  Get rid of the "everybody passes!" [Voice of Dr Nick from the simpsons] mentality.


----------



## aesop081

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> Get rid of the "everybody passes!" [Voice of Dr Nick from the simpsons] mentality.



To be fair, i dont think that this mentality is endemic. My trade only gradutes 50% or less of those who show up for the basic trade course for example. I think that we have made some progress over the last few years with upholding our own standards but the pressure to make up the numbers has to be great on training establishments.


----------



## FastEddy

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> Excellent point, I overlooked that.
> When someone is an idiot an beyond redemption punt them from the CF.
> When a recruit is a total bag of crap and not going to benefit the CF kick them off course.  Get rid of the "everybody passes!" [Voice of Dr Nick from the simpsons] mentality.




Excuse me, are these the same IDIOT's and Bags of Crap that have Graduated High School and Plus ?, have Passed all Psychical fitness and Endurance Tests ?, are in Perfect Health & Condition ?, have been Psychologically Accessed ?, have successfully Graduated from that Jewel in the Crown Basic Training Facility at St. Johns Que ?.


----------



## George Wallace

FastEddy said:
			
		

> Excuse me, are these the same IDIOT's and Bags of Crap that have Graduated High School and Plus ?, have Passed all Psychical fitness and Endurance Tests ?, are in Perfect Health & Condition ?, have been Psychologically Accessed ?, have successfully Graduated from that Jewel in the Crown Basic Training Facility at St. Johns Que ?.



You're starting to catch on.


----------



## Old Sweat

I have avoided jumping in because I haven't been involved in the training world since 1980, but I would like to offer a thought or two based on what I experienced back then. 

At that time one of the ongoing problems was, believe it or not, large gaps of unproductive time between the end of CFRS and the start of MOC courses. This was compounded by high attrition, but that's a side issue. Recruiting was controlled by NDHQ while loading on the recruit and BOTC courses was done by CF Training System (CFTS) in Trenton.

My particular bugbear was combat arms, especially infantry TQ3 because of the numbers, recruit intakes and it seemed CFTS was using them as fillers. On investigation, I found that they were doing that because no one in the army had ever objected. Instead, in our finest traditions we just bitched about the dorks in Trenton screwing us up. So, we sat down with them and plotted the combat arms TQ3 intakes in conjunction with CFTS and the Battle Schools, etc so that a large platoon based on attrition numbers, say destined for the PPCLI, would start at a certain date and graduate x weeks later. Two weeks later a TQ3 course would start in the Battle School in Wainwright. We tried to do this for all our intakes and for officer candidates.

Eventually we convinced the CF (it was actually a cooperative venture between the three services, NDHQ and CFTS HQ) to produce a long range plan which gave guidance to the recruiters, the CF schools and the controlling organizations on numbers to be trained per MOC/Classification per year along with course block timings. The numbers were based on historical data re attrition along with equipment introductions and a number of other factors. It was quite accurate up to 18 months to two years out, but became more of a guesstimate the farther in the future one looked. 

It was not perfect by any means and major screw ups occurred, but at least it provided planning guidance and direction. In a perfect world the recruiters could avoid bringing in left-handed widget technicians in April if the annual TQ3 course started in March. They didn't like that, as good prospective candidates were lost, but they followed it pretty closely.

I suspect people are doing something like this, but the magnitude of the challenge is something that can't be fixed by a snap of the fingers. The limiting factor, if I am reading this thread correctly, is the lack of instructors and space in the post-recruit training establishments.


----------



## dapaterson

Old Sweat:  When we downsized in the mid 90s we got rid of most of the folks that co-ordinated intake - as always, in a downsizing, fire the people responsible for planning.  Then, in the latest recuriting binge ("Everyone gets in within a month or you get a free toaster!") no thought at all was given to scheduling - so in certain trades we brought in 3 years worth of intake in a few months - with lack DP1 schoolhouse capacity meaning two year waits for training.

Which leads into the topic of wrong trades.  Yes, MedTech, there is recruiting into the "wrong trades".  If a trade is green, with lots of folks going through DP1 training, with healthy promotion rates, and the schools at max capacity, increasing intake into that trade is Stupid.  It's a mistake.  It's the Wrong Trade.  It leads to dissatisfaction for the new recruit, and a lot of wasted time for the CF - we have people releasing at the end of their BE who haven't completed their DP1 training.  Similarly, bringing someone into a skilled trade who barely makes the grade based on their initial tests is putting them into the wrong trade - guess what, odds are good that he/she will flunk out, wasting that training slot and further slowing production of personnel.  The current "One month or a toaster!" philosophy is hurting the skilled trades with sub-standard recruits, leading to increased attrition on DP1 courses, further exacerbating the problems - we're wasting training slots on pers who are not completing training.  Recruit the right person for the right trade at the right time.

Finally, the HR researchers do much more than just "ask passers by in the NDHQ concourse".  Your baseless attacks on their professionalism is somewhat surreal - "If they do surveys, why wasn't *I* told?" is ridiculous - what need to know do you have?  What job in CFRG or in CMP do you hold that requires you to read, analyze, assess and action those results?  DND/CF produce thousands of studies in different areas; no one is on the distribution list for all of them (nor could they be - not enough hours in the day).     But if you do wish to start reading in, you can look at reports on the CMP intranet site - go to DMPSC under DGMP, and start reading documents like the CF Pers Management Report, or go to the DMPORA site and start reading their reports.


----------



## X-mo-1979

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> Excellent point, I overlooked that.
> When someone is an idiot an beyond redemption punt them from the CF.
> When a recruit is a total bag of crap and not going to benefit the CF kick them off course.  Get rid of the "everybody passes!" [Voice of Dr Nick from the simpsons] mentality.



I agree.Having worked at a school and now posted to a regiment I see the product that was PUSHED when it should have been kicked out.Keeping these people doesnt benifit the regiment.They are so obsessed with numbers they fail to realise they are paying 50 grand a year for the past 5 years for a useless soldier (who is now a cpl,pte's look up to)who has been removed from the past two tours,and serves no purpose.

Also on that some of these useless POS are getting the career courses,putting them ahead of their peer's who due to their usefulness have been frequently deployed.

We have to focus quality over quanity.Or else we end up with useless Mcpls in another 2-3 years,and further down the road snr nco's.Lets face it career courses are getting pretty freakion slack...anyone remember the old 6A?Compare that to the patrol commander.


----------



## apache2001

Recuiting is everywhere and all the time.  It may start when a kid starts saluting a soldier on the road, someone reads good news about the CF, a good movie, in school or at home.  It also has to do with your values as a Canadian.  "Patriotism", "Serving the Public"... etc.

It didn't take me a lot of recruiting effort to get my application in 2001.  It was personal.  I wanted to thank Canada so I'm focused that serving in the forces would be the best step to achieve my goal.


----------



## daftandbarmy

I wonder how many potential recruits do the same thing....


Sick of slow service, customers walk

VIRGINIA GALT 
Globe and Mail Update

August 26, 2008 at 4:28 PM EDT

Canadian consumers are so tired of waiting … in bank lineups, in grocery stores, in department stores for service, that most – at some point – have walked out without completing their business, according to a survey released Tuesday.

“Canadian consumers are abandoning their shopping carts, delaying purchases and leaving stores, public transit stops and restaurants in significant numbers,” marketing research firm, Maritz Research Canada, said in releasing the results of an online poll of more than 1,300 adult Canadians.

http://www.reportonbusiness.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080826.wwaiting0826/BNStory/Business/?cid=al_gam_nletter_newsUp


----------



## JayJay144

Interesting point about the line up editorial. 

        Keeping in mind I'm going through the application process ; medical and interview on wednesday    I've found the recruiting centre in Ottawa to be quite busy this summer during the times I was phoning and keeping on top of things. My first aptitude test didn't go very well as I wanted at least infantry (Reg) so I patiently waited a few more weeks. It was hard but the extra time to try and re-learn math was worth it. I qualified for what I listed; infantry, sig ops and combat engineer this time around. (Thiking hard about number 3.) I was sure to call at least once a week and would try to talk with them a little bit. It seems there are many people who are at least interested in the forces and thats good to see. possibly because of the campaign to promote Red Fridays. 

         I'm 23 years old, hard working individual, I suppose you can say I'm conservative although I don't like to be branded.  I've had a chance to observe people's personal politics in my growing up. It seems the whole anti-war thing is almost a mental illness in a way. Or more so that it's just a phase that people go through. I think more and more people are realizing that  war and politics are an uneven mix but it's the men and women caught in between that really matter. They are just people like the rest of us after all. I feel It's important to show solidarity even if it's subtle. 

I wouldn't be too worried about staffing problems. People will decide on their own time whether to join or even just think about it. I myself have had the itch for a while and now I want to pick up the ball and run with it. I'm up for the challenge because I feel that you never know if you don't attempt it. It takes time to actually get up the courage. I personally regret not joining the reserves when I was in highschool but I also think the extra time to mature has also been positive too. 

Regards,  

Jordan


----------



## Teddy Ruxpin

> Most urban centres with the highest populations have zero regular force presence in the community. The militia armouries are the traditional connection between the community and Canada's Army. The private sector has it figured out: sales success is all about 'location, location, location'. Why not treat this war like the major conflict it really is and, like WW1 and 2, mobilize a few reserve units across the country, staff them up with regulars and recruit and train locally like hell (using modern marketing techniques) so that 'your local unit can go defeat the Taliban'? I dunno, call it the '100 mile' solution or something - act locally, soldier globally.



This has been thought of before - in another context.  One reason why it is not and will not be done is the spectre of a sub-unit - all from one local area - taking mass casualties.  The "optics" of dozens of KIA and WIA returning to the same community is not something that the CF could entertain in the modern media age. 

Despite the mythology, we have never _really_ recruited and deployed from local locations.  By the time most units entered combat in the Second World War, for instance, they were comprised of soldiers from across Canada (and had had 2+ years "work up training", but that's another issue).



> A trip to the US to learn from our counterparts would give us a fairly good idea on how to more effectively recruit and retain. Then return to infuse these ideas into the changing system.



This is not always a good idea.  The US caters to a different demographic and has significantly different personnel requirements than the CF.  Moreover, all Canadian Government advertising must be approved by Treasury Board, which controls both funding and content.  The CF may not always get what it wants in the way of "aggressive" US-style ads, particularly if those ads conflict with the messaging the government of the day is trying to control.


----------



## George Wallace

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> This has been thought of before - in another context.  One reason why it is not and will not be done is the spectre of a sub-unit - all from one local area - taking mass casualties.  The "optics" of dozens of KIA and WIA returning to the same community is not something that the CF could entertain in the modern media age.
> 
> Despite the mythology, we have never _really_ recruited and deployed from local locations.  By the time most units entered combat in the Second World War, for instance, they were comprised of soldiers from across Canada (and had had 2+ years "work up training", but that's another issue).



I can see your point with the first paragraph and agree with it in principal.  However, if we were to combine it with what you have said in the second paragraph, it looks like a fairly good idea.  Not everyone being recruited will want the Trades offered by that unit, and would be transferred to another location for training.  Yes, the bulk of that unit will have "local roots", but in this day of age, and the mobility of our workforce/population, transfers can be facilitated.

Currently many Reserve Units are in fact nothing more than adhoc Recruit Training Cells of the Regular Force.  The amounts of Recruits that a Reserve Unit bring in and train from BMQ through SQ and Trades Training, only to see them CT to the Regular Force is in some cases near 50%.  That being said; why not make it official.  Stand them up or put a cadre on Class B/Class C to recruit and train using the Depot System of "Old" to process both Reservists for their Unit, and Regular Force for the Regs.  This will guarantee that both Reservist and Regular Force pers are getting identical training, and facilitate the amalgamation of Reservists into Task Forces on Deployments.

This may help clean out the current problems of "too few instructors" and "too many people sitting in PAT/PRETC/etc platoons" in Borden and elsewhere.


----------



## kratz

George Wallace said:
			
		

> ...*Currently many Reserve Units are in fact nothing more than adhoc Recruit Training Cells of the Regular Force. *  The amounts of Recruits that a Reserve Unit bring in and train from BMQ through SQ and Trades Training, only to see them CT to the Regular Force is in some cases near 50%.  That being said; why not make it official.  Stand them up or put a cadre on Class B/Class C to recruit and train using the Depot System of "Old" to process both Reservists for their Unit, and Regular Force for the Regs.  This will guarantee that both Reservist and Regular Force pers are getting identical training, and facilitate the amalgamation of Reservists into Task Forces on Deployments.
> 
> This may help clean out the current problems of "too few instructors" and "too many people sitting in PAT/PRETC/etc platoons" in Borden and elsewhere.



I know the concept of formalizing what is essentially occurring now in Reserve Units has been looked into since 2000. I am not aware of the outcome of those discussions, but the idea holds enough merit that higher ups are interested in reviewing the idea.  I appreciate some of the benefits of the idea, but what are the drawbacks that would stop this idea from moving forward?


----------



## dapaterson

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Currently many Reserve Units are in fact nothing more than adhoc Recruit Training Cells of the Regular Force.  The amounts of Recruits that a Reserve Unit bring in and train from BMQ through SQ and Trades Training, only to see them CT to the Regular Force is in some cases near 50%.



In an average year (over the past 4) roughly 2.5% of parading reservists have CT'd to the Reg force, with only 4/10 of those staying in trade.  The numbers are nowhere near 50% for any unit.


----------



## tomahawk6

I wonder if bonus' were offered if that would help both in attracting recruits but also in retention ?


----------



## armyvern

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> I wonder if bonus' were offered if that would help both in attracting recruits but also in retention ?



Well, they seemed to help with pilot retention a few years back.

I know one thing that would also help with retention, but - of course - would create a shitstorm of controversy -- a simple statement really "No. VR not accepted. You signed a contract to serve, you're honouring it."  :-X


----------



## gun runner

I always thought that you didnt join the military for the paycheques..but" to see the world,meet new and interesting people,and"...you know how that sentence ends. So now we are in the next century, and the job is a little different, not by much, but still.. and then we come to the wages! This is the only reason why we cannot keep the boots filled. we cannot match the money made by civillians in similar occupations and therefore lose the newbies to those industries instead of serving their country. This has always been and will always be a problem for the forces. The money has to be the incentive to keep up the ranks. Ubique


----------



## aesop081

Money doesnt keep people in. I'm in a very well paid MOC and we have very high attrition. More money wont change that.


----------



## Celticgirl

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I'm in a very well paid MOC and we have very high attrition.



What is the problem with your MOC? High stress?



			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I know one thing that would also help with retention, but - of course - would create a shitstorm of controversy -- a simple statement really "No. VR not accepted. You signed a contract to serve, you're honouring it."  :-X



Sounds a lot like a movie I saw recently: "Stop Loss".


----------



## aesop081

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> What is the problem with your MOC?



High OP tempo combined with 80% of the trade being at/beyond 20 years of service.


----------



## Celticgirl

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> High OP tempo combined with 80% of the trade being at/beyond 20 years of service.



Well, I guess that would make it a very "red" trade, wouldn't it? More money might well be an incentive for new recruits if they are on the fence about their choices.


----------



## aesop081

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> More money might well be an incentive for new recruits if they are on the fence about their choices.



We will find out soon. The first direct-entry candidates for my trade should be recruited later this year.


----------



## Occam

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Money doesnt keep people in. I'm in a very well paid MOC and we have very high attrition. More money wont change that.



Yes - you're in a very well paid MOC which has high attrition.  An MOC which is a remuster trade, which means the trade suffers from a high average years of service (YOS) because people already have a fair number of years in when they reach career status.  That leads to a higher percentage of members having the latitude to pull the plug much more easily than other trades which aren't remuster MOCs.  Are you that certain that the offer of a retention bonus combined with obligatory service wouldn't lead to at least some personnel sticking around a little longer?

The CF is going to have to realize that members in highly skilled trades are being remunerated far better on civvie street than in the CF, and that while service to the country is a noble calling, a CD doesn't put food on the table nor a roof over the head of one's family.


----------



## aesop081

Occam said:
			
		

> Are you that certain that the offer of a retention bonus combined with obligatory service wouldn't lead to at least some personnel sticking around a little longer?



I have seen a number of them leave from my unit alone. Money wasnt going to keep them in.


----------



## Occam

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I have seen a number of them leave from my unit alone. Money wasnt going to keep them in.



In any given group of people, you're going to find a number of them that are going to pull the plug regardless.  The retention bonus isn't targeted at them - it's targeted at the people who would like to continue to serve, but are leaning towards release and greener financial pastures.


----------



## aesop081

Occam said:
			
		

> In any given group of people, you're going to find a number of them that are going to pull the plug regardless.  The retention bonus isn't targeted at them - it's targeted at the people who would like to continue to serve, but are leaning towards release and greener financial pastures.



Yeah yeah, i'm aware.

Unfortunately, the ones leaving are the ones with all the experience. The ones after them have 6 years in the trade or less. We have to keep the older guys in for a while longer and we're doing a poor job of it.

When i go back to work i will do a little unoficial poll  to see if moeny would get people to resign. I dont expect too many takers ( beyond those who would stay anyways.)


----------



## Loachman

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Well, they seemed to help with pilot retention a few years back.



Not really, if at all.

The only people of whom I know that took the money were planning to stay in anyway.

Many others who were also planning to stay in anyway did not take the money, as, being close to the twenty-year point, did not want to give up that freedom for another five years. They did not trust the "system".

I turned it down and became a reservist.

Many others left as well.

Plenty were mightily pissed off about the whole thing, as they were not eligible for either the $75000 or $50000 bonuses, and consequently felt like "second-class" members of the community. COs, who now had a few captains working for them making far more money than they did, were not particularly amused either.

The true saviour of the CF Pilot community was more likely Osama bin Laden, who put an end to airline recruiting programmes world-wide.

Now, if they'd only given us leather jackets like USAF pilots got as part of their retention programme...


----------



## Snafu-Bar

As a newbie on the outside still looking in, money wasn't nor is it a deciding factor for me joining up. The chance to learn something new and do something i haven't done before are why i'm interested. 20 years of working in factories and doing various grunt jobs, i've had my fill of the corporate world and where it's headed. 

 Cheers.


----------



## aesop081

Loachman said:
			
		

> The true saviour of the CF Pilot community was more likely Osama bin Laden, who put an end to airline recruiting programmes world-wide.



Lots of pilots are "Canada 3000 returnees"  ;D


----------



## SeaKingTacco

> Now, if they'd only given us leather jackets like USAF pilots got as part of their retention programme...



Oh!  Good Idea!  The old RCN leather flying jackets are particularly nice.  I'll take a 40 long please, with squadron patches.


----------



## Celticgirl

Loachman said:
			
		

> Now, if they'd only given us leather jackets like USAF pilots got as part of their retention programme...



I think the Aerospace Controllers should get in on that action, too.  ;D


----------



## medaid

The USN G-1 was a much sharper looking Aviator Jacket IMO. 

Speaking of pay... Well I don't get paid NEARLY enough.. Or rather barely at all. My wages suck!


----------



## Jacqueline

> The Canadian Forces were to welcome 200 new recruits to their ranks Saturday, with a CF-18 fly-past, a 21-gun salute and a pomp-filled ceremony, presided over by the highest brass, at the Canadian War Museum. Behind the scenes, however, the military is struggling to attract personnel.



Here's a suggestion: Raise wages!


----------



## aesop081

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> I think the Aerospace Controllers should get in on that action, too.  ;D



Sure, those who fly AWACS might as well. For the rest, the leather jacket will not work with CADPAT.


----------



## Celticgirl

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Sure, those who fly AWACS might as well. For the rest, the leather jacket will not work with CADPAT.



Hey, I wouldn't wear something that nice to work.  8)


----------



## Loachman

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Sure, those who fly AWACS might as well. For the rest, the leather jacket will not work with CADPAT.



They could make them like the CADPAT boots and gloves.

Then they'd just need matching purses.


----------



## aesop081

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> Hey, I wouldn't wear something that nice to work.  8)



 :tsktsk:

This is the part where i get to educate you on regulations pertaining to the wear of uniform items mixed with civilian clothing........

its against the  :rules:

Plus with all the velcro on it for badges you would judt end up looking like a retard downtown.......


----------



## dapaterson

Miss JDro said:
			
		

> Here's a suggestion: Raise wages!



Anyone who claims the CF is underpaid needs to take a long hard look at the non-military job market (excluding the Public Service may be useful as well).  For most jobs, the CF receives above market wages.  Certainly, as in any other employer, those at the bottom receive less, but the "working-level" ranks of Cpl and Capt are well compensated.


----------



## aesop081

Miss JDro said:
			
		

> Here's a suggestion: Raise wages!



WOW......what a stroke of genius !

Why didn't anyone think of that before ?


Yes i'm being sarcastic.


----------



## Celticgirl

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> :tsktsk:
> 
> This is the part where i get to educate you on regulations pertaining to the wear of uniform items mixed with civilian clothing........
> 
> its against the  :rules:
> 
> Plus with all the velcro on it for badges you would judt end up looking like a retard downtown.......



 :




			
				Loachman said:
			
		

> They could make them like the CADPAT boots and gloves.
> 
> Then they'd just need matching purses.


 
That sounds...intriguing.


----------



## blacktriangle

We've been through this before...the CF pays people quite well for what alot of us actually do. I would have to be an apprentice in a skilled trade to make more then the CF pays me at 18, and thats without all the other benefits we get. If it weren't for this job, I'd either have to go to some kind of schooling right away, or make 8.50 an hr at Mcdonalds. The pay in the CF is alot better then it used to be, my mom's family was raised on a single soldier income during the 60's and 70's. I won't complain if pay goes up, since so does cost of living, but I think at the moment we're not doing half bad.


----------



## Jacqueline

That's addressed to the Big Bosses up there.*


----------



## aesop081

Miss JDro said:
			
		

> That's addressed to the Big Bosses up there.*



I'm sure they have thought of that too.


----------



## Loachman

There are things far more important than money in this calling; in no particular order:

One must feel that what one is doing is worthwhile and contributes to the betterment of one's Country and Planet;

One must have interesting and challenging things to do;

One must have adequate rest and time for oneself and one's family;

One must have the opportunity for self-improvement;

One must feel secure in the knowledge that, should anything happen, that one and one's family will be looked after;

One must have the support of one's fellow citizens and government; and

One must have the equipment to do one's job.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Andf thsi seems like an appropriate time to introduce Dr. Fred Herzberg (Sgt, US Army, Retired) who is famous for his theories on motivation e.g., it's not always about the money...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Herzberg

Frederick Irving Herzberg (1923 - 2000) was a noted psychologist who became one of the most influential names in business management. He is most famous for introducing job enrichment and the Motivator-Hygiene theory. His 1968 publication "One More Time, How Do You Motivate Employees?" had sold 1.2 million reprints by 1987 and was the most requested article from the Harvard Business Review[1]. Herzberg attended City College of New York, but left part way through his studies to enlist in the army. As a patrol sergeant, he was a firsthand witness of the Dachau concentration camp. He believed that this experience, as well as the talks he had with other Germans living in the area was what triggered his interest in motivation. Herzberg graduated from City College in 1946 and moved to the University of Pittsburgh to undertake post-graduate studies in science and public health. He earned his PhD in psychology with a dissertation entitled "Prognostic variables for electroshock therapy". He started his research on the workplace while teaching as a professor of psychology at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland and later moved to the University of Utah where he held the position of professor of management in the college of business.[2]


http://www.businessballs.com/herzberg.htm

Many people argue nevertheless that money is a primary motivator. 
For most people money is not a motivator - despite what they might think and say.
For all people there are bigger more sustaining motivators than money.
Surveys and research studies repeatedly show that other factors motivate more than money. Examples appear in the newspapers and in other information resources every week.For instance, a survey by Development Dimensions International published in the UK Times newspaper in 2004 interviewed 1,000 staff from companies employing more than 500 workers, and found many to be bored, lacking commitment and looking for a new job. Pay actually came fifth in the reasons people gave for leaving their jobs. 
The main reasons were lack of stimulus jobs and no opportunity for advancement - classic Herzberg motivators - 43% left for better promotion chances, 28% for more challenging work; 23% for a more exciting place to work; and 21% and more varied work.


----------



## tomahawk6

But for many people an extra $10,000 to stay a few more years is attractive. If you are going to a war zone its nice getting a tax free paycheck while you are there. Job satisfaction and time off is great but at the end of the day it boils down to money vs the hassle of service life.


----------



## LCIS-Tech

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> But for many people an extra $10,000 to stay a few more years is attractive. If you are going to a war zone its nice getting a tax free paycheck while you are there. Job satisfaction and time off is great but at the end of the day it boils down to money vs the hassle of service life.



You know......I have to agree with that statement to a limited extent. The reason I say "limited" is that I LOVE my job, I LOVE my country, and I am PROUD to serve my country in what is one of the most honorable professions that has ever existed: The profession of Arms. That said, because of those reasons, I will be wearing this uniform until the day that they tell me that I am too old, or too broken to wear it any more. At the same time, I have a few mixed feelings about "incentives" for enrolling and retention. I am a LCIS Tech, with 23 years of service, having signed my IPS years ago. Now: I look at some of these youngsters who are enrolling with Technical Training from a college somewhere getting a $20000 signing bonus to stay in for 5 years or so. Here I am, with 23 years IN TRADE, and what incentive did I get for re-signing and staying in? A big fat egg. Now, that is not to say that I wouldn't stay in anyways: Like I said..I love my job, and I have a family to provide for. At the same time however, it would have been nice to have seen my "much longer" commitment recognized in a similar fashion to a recruit who doesn't even know how to lace up his boots properly yet.


----------



## George Wallace

LCIS-Tech said:
			
		

> ....... At the same time however, it would have been nice to have seen my "much longer" commitment recognized in a similar fashion to a recruit who doesn't even know how to lace up his boots properly yet.



This is the here and now.  I wonder if you bothered to look at what your Pension will be, compared to the hoops the 'new" system has placed on recent recruits and what their Pensions may be like.  Perhaps you aren't as "done in" as you thought.  

Just wondering.


----------



## Snafu-Bar

Perhaps a backend pension sum would be a viable option for those with over 10 years service. The more time in, the more pension bonus recieved when opting out. Also gives people more incentives to stick it out. Besides VETS deserve the cash for thier time in as apposed to some snot nosed kid fresh out of the classroom with a shiney new diploma and no clue. <--- ( no disrespect to my future CO's  ;D)


 Cheers.


----------



## dapaterson

The "snot-nosed kids" are getting a bonus because they don't need as much training as you did.  They're bypassing a year or two of tech training because they are entering with skills you lacked when you got in.

In fact, we're ripping them off (by one measure) - the old folks got two years pay, plus the value of the training - call it $150K in pay, benefits and training - and we're only giving the "snot-nosed kids" $20K (max).


----------



## CountDC

George Wallace said:
			
		

> This is the here and now.  I wonder if you bothered to look at what your Pension will be, compared to the hoops the 'new" system has placed on recent recruits and what their Pensions may be like.  Perhaps you aren't as "done in" as you thought.
> 
> Just wondering.



I have - they will have to do the same time - 25 pensionable years as I do and the pension they receive will be higher as by the time they get there their pay will be much higher than mine is. On top of that they have received a nice nest egg that they can invest, pay off student loans or use towards a down payment on a house.  Paying signing bonuses to get someone in for 5 years is nice but obviously is not enough as we continue to lose the recruiting battles. A nice retention payment might encourage some of those leaving after 5 to stick around along with those pulling the plug after doing the  20/25 they need for pension. Interesting that infantry seems to be doing better at recruiting without a signing bonus than those receiving them.

Here is a perfect example of why some are leaving:  Reg F MCpl, retires with pension, joins P Res full time - Pension plus P Res pay equals approx Reg F WO pay. Still in the military, still a MCpl, has a lot more money and time off (22 days leave plus 30/31 day break). At the later stage of the game when people have families to take care of money can be a big motivator.


----------



## George Wallace

CountDC said:
			
		

> Here is a perfect example of why some are leaving:  Reg F MCpl, retires with pension, joins P Res full time - Pension plus P Res pay equals approx Reg F WO pay. Still in the military, still a MCpl, has a lot more money and time off (22 days leave plus 30/31 day break). At the later stage of the game when people have families to take care of money can be a big motivator.



That is where the CT Process should be encouraging Reg Force to continue on with the Primary Reserves on completion of their contracts.  Reserve Units are loosing a great number of their members to the Regular Force, and loosing their "experienced" people.  Look at the "experience" former Reg Force can bring to a Reserve Unit.  Not all Reg Force retirees want to have anything to do with the military when they leave, but there are many who may, and they should be encouraged to do some time in the Reserves who are desperately looking for the "experienced" and more importantly, Instructors.


As for you look on the Pensions being the same.  They are two different plans now.  The older Service Members at their 25, or more, year mark are at an advantage.  They do not have to wait 25 years to get a basic pension; they reached that after 20 years.  Not that it matters in thirty years when they have been retired for twenty or so, and the people on the new plan start to retire.  Indexing and such will have kicked in, but no two pensions, no matter what or for whom, will be the same.  Pensions are probably a moot point.  

I would take the line of dapaterson to have a clearer, more realistic, look at the problem.


----------



## eurowing

I'm taking my pension and running as well.  I'll be getting a pay raise in my new job, plus pulling in a decent pension. Being promoted and posted was not really attractive at all.  
FWIW, the money is OK in the service, but my brother apprenticed as a scaffolder (so he could do something different) in Ft McMoney.  He pulled in 90K, living rent and ration free in camp.  He apprenticed! I've been with the same outfit for 33 years and he has always made more than me.  On the negative side, he has had to put his money aside for years because his pension is going to suck!


----------



## CountDC

George Wallace said:
			
		

> As for you look on the Pensions being the same.  They are two different plans now.  The older Service Members at their 25, or more, year mark are at an advantage.  They do not have to wait 25 years to get a basic pension; they reached that after 20 years.  Not that it matters in thirty years when they have been retired for twenty or so, and the people on the new plan start to retire.  Indexing and such will have kicked in, but no two pensions, no matter what or for whom, will be the same.  Pensions are probably a moot point.
> 
> I would take the line of dapaterson to have a clearer, more realistic, look at the problem.



two plans now - wow - when were they going to tell us clerks??? Last I heard they were gonna have 3 until all the old timers were gone - the 20 year plan grandfathered, the new 25 year plan and the reserve plan.

my look on the pensions were comparing mine to the new members thus the use of such terms as "25 pensionable years as I do" and "higher than mine".

maybe the pensions are moot but you were the one that brought it into the mix.


----------



## tank recce

Loachman said:
			
		

> There are things far more important than money in this calling; in no particular order:
> 
> One must feel that what one is doing is worthwhile and contributes to the betterment of one's Country and Planet;
> 
> *One must have interesting and challenging things to do*;
> 
> *One must have adequate rest and time for oneself and one's family*;
> 
> *One must have the opportunity for self-improvement*;
> 
> *One must feel secure   in the knowledge that, should anything happen, that one and one's family will be looked after*;
> 
> *One must have the support of one's fellow citizens and government*; and
> 
> *One must have the equipment to do one's job*.



... and one wonders why one's regiment has such issues getting the troops out for parades and ftx's. 

(Hey, 1 out of 7 isn't bad!) :brickwall:


----------



## daftandbarmy

tank recce said:
			
		

> ... and one wonders why one's regiment has such issues getting the troops out for parades and ftx's.
> 
> (Hey, 1 out of 7 isn't bad!) :brickwall:



I find it shocking that troops aren't flocking to the armoury floor, keen on yet another go round of 'taking your rifle apart and putting it together', and 'walking before we run'  :


----------

