# RMC - bachelor straight into master program



## McG (12 Jan 2022)

I have seen a few incidents of RMC ROTP students who are kept at the college after graduation to complete a masters degree before heading to a first real posting. These are not individuals who were kept in the education system because they needed to do something while waiting for a spot in the training system; these were individuals who achieved their occupational training requirements yet were retained in the education system for a more advanced degree ... and (as best as I can tell) their first postings were not linked to a requirement for the attained PG.

Does anyone know if this still happens and, if it does still occur, how often does it happen?
... and why?


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## Blackadder1916 (12 Jan 2022)

McG said:


> I have seen a few incidents of RMC ROTP students who are kept at the college after graduation to complete a masters degree before heading to a first real posting. These are not individuals who were kept in the education system because they needed to do something while waiting for a spot in the training system; these were individuals who achieved their occupational training requirements yet were retained in the education system for a more advanced degree ... and (as best as I can tell) their first postings were not linked to a requirement for the attained PG.
> 
> Does anyone know if this still happens and, if it does still occur, how often does it happen?
> ... and why?



I don't know how often it stills occurs, but Annex B to CFAO 9-33 may explain some of the why and how.



> CFAO 9-33 POST-GRADUATE TRAINING PROGRAMS REGULAR FORCE AND PRIMARY RESERVE
> 
> ANNEX B -- TRAINING ON SCHOLARSHIPS PROGRAMME
> 
> ...


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## kev994 (12 Jan 2022)

I’ve ummm… ‘heard’ of a person getting a back door deal while awaiting pilot training.  Getting posted back to Kingston for “OJT” and doing a full-time Master’s program on an ILP as that OJT.  Not at all within the intent of the ILP program and the BPSO was really mad when they found out. This would have been over 10 years ago so YMMV.


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## AmmoTech90 (12 Jan 2022)

I know of one who who was under para 12 of the CFAO (received a Rhodes Scholarship or equivalent) and went right into their Masters after RMC.  I also know of one who was posted to DRDC right after graduation and then went back a couple of years later for PG, research, and instructional duties.  No real experience in their occupation, but provided good service to the CAF.


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## Edward Campbell (12 Jan 2022)

AmmoTech90 said:


> I know of one who who was under para 12 of the CFAO (received a Rhodes Scholarship or equivalent) and went right into their Masters after RMC.  I also know of one who was posted to DRDC right after graduation and then went back a couple of years later for PG, research, and instructional duties.  No real experience in their occupation, but provided good service to the CAF.


Ditto, but way back in the mid 1960s: Bob Harrison and Robin Boadway (both 1964).


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## MJP (12 Jan 2022)

McG said:


> I have seen a few incidents of RMC ROTP students who are kept at the college after graduation to complete a masters degree before heading to a first real posting. These are not individuals who were kept in the education system because they needed to do something while waiting for a spot in the training system; these were individuals who achieved their occupational training requirements yet were retained in the education system for a more advanced degree ... and (as best as I can tell) their first postings were not linked to a requirement for the attained PG.
> 
> Does anyone know if this still happens and, if it does still occur, how often does it happen?
> ... and why?


I have to check if there are any recent ones but the Log Branch did this with regularity for people taking the RMC MBA.  It was always baffling as  there is almost zero value to the organization to allow it.  One factor might be that it was during a time period where there was a long back log for Log trg  due to only running one crse a year.  people sat for a few years waiting to get trained so maybe it was a way of gainfully employing them


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## ballz (12 Jan 2022)

I know of one person (Infantry Officer) going directly into their Masters after finishing their phase training and becoming OFP.... it was definitely a rare situation (the only one I know of). They also finished top of the academic program at RMC, so I'm sure that had something to do with it. And his first posting was not tied his post-grad.... he finished is Master's and then got posted to a Battalion to be a Platoon Commander for his baseline employment just like the rest of us.


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## Navy_Pete (13 Jan 2022)

Having just finished a Masters I would say the real 'value added' for the CAF was my experience and taking that to tailor the thesis output into something directly related to the RCN. However, if you had a very involved sponsor who needed someone to look into a specific issue this could be useful. Vaguely remember someone doing some very particular cyber related research on a Masters that was specific to one of the systems, so the output was directly used by the sponsor (even if the person went off to do their phase training).

Probably a better use of time than shredding paper as a PAT I guess, but think the PG program is being limited due to funding issues so hopefully doesn't happen like this frequently.


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## McG (13 Jan 2022)

Funding is probably the lesser of costs if the degree is being pursued at RMC.  The problematic cost is the year long consumption of a person when we don't have people enough to fill our establishments.


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## dapaterson (13 Jan 2022)

Maybe the question is whether the role of RMC is to produce officers for the CAF, or if the role of the CAF is to provide students for RMC?


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## SeaKingTacco (13 Jan 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Maybe the question is whether the role of RMC is to produce officers for the CAF, or if the role of the CAF is to provide students for RMC?


Yes.


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## MSmith (13 Jan 2022)

McG said:


> I have seen a few incidents of RMC ROTP students who are kept at the college after graduation to complete a masters degree before heading to a first real posting. These are not individuals who were kept in the education system because they needed to do something while waiting for a spot in the training system; these were individuals who achieved their occupational training requirements yet were retained in the education system for a more advanced degree ... and (as best as I can tell) their first postings were not linked to a requirement for the attained PG.
> 
> Does anyone know if this still happens and, if it does still occur, how often does it happen?
> ... and why?


I have a few friends who did the "PG on Schol" program after graduating - as AmmoTech90 alluded to the program is really for those who are offered an exceptional scholarship and would be crazy to decline it. Certainly if I had the choice between accepting a Rhodes Scholarship and starting a military career, I would always defer the military career for the scholarship whether given the option to return without questions after or not (even if that meant release). To me, the real intent of the program is to retain those who clearly have the ability and are given the opportunity to study at the postgraduate level, but would like to continue studying full time before beginning their career.

For those questioning the cost to the CAF, read the policy:
"As a further guide, scholarships that will be considered by NDHQ will normally be those in the high dollar value range that do not require the candidate to expend more than six hours of work a week for the university concerned. Scholarships usually considered as teaching or research assistant-ships offered by universities are, for purposes of the PG programme, not considered to be prestigious and therefore are excluded."

As I said, it's designed towards students who receive scholarships that will pay most costs. Not always the case, but that is the spirit of the policy.


McG said:


> Funding is probably the lesser of costs if the degree is being pursued at RMC.  The problematic cost is the year long consumption of a person when we don't have people enough to fill our establishments.


The program doesn't have to be at RMC. In fact, I've never met anyone who went on to do this at RMC as RMC doesn't really provide scholarships on the scale that you'd think of. As the policy states: "6. No specific quotas are established for PG scholarship training. Attendance will be determined annually by NDHQ, based on the availability of officers and current military requirements." If we desperately needed these officers, they wouldn't be allowed to go. Or circling back to my first point, if they are going to leave to accept the scholarship anyways, why not retain them with obligatory service following to boot?



dapaterson said:


> Maybe the question is whether the role of RMC is to produce officers for the CAF, or if the role of the CAF is to provide students for RMC?


Very insightful opinion, especially given what I said above that the overwhelming majority of the pers who go on this program don't do it at RMC. Have a read of this article. I don't claim it to be gospel but it might give you some perspective. There is certainly a role for RMC whether 100% of the graduates go on to become officers in the CAF or not, and there is certainly a role for education in the military.

I think the bigger question to ask is - why is there still such an anti-intellectual attitude in our military?


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## dapaterson (13 Jan 2022)

Anti-RMC does not necessarily translate to anti-intellectual.

Quite the contrary.


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