# Sports in the CF, or rather lack thereof.



## Biggoals2bdone (15 Jul 2010)

Ok so i'm positive everyone has walked through at LEAST one CF base gym, and seen the huge wall with pictures of all the CF sports Hall of Famers....i've stood there before checking out what some of them won awards for or competed in, and it surprises me GREATLY what I see, things ranging from the OBVIOUS (and over emphasized) long distance running, track events, fencing, weightlifting, boxing, hockey (surprising?) football, basketball and MANY others.

What i'm wondering is WHY we don't have nearly as many sports available NOW in the CF as was 30+ yrs ago.

I've been looking forever, to find something besides Tae Kwon Do (eww) in the combatives area and there's nothing else I can find. No weightlifting anymore, i've seen a plaque on the gym about a powerlifting competition here in Pet, but from the looks of it they haven't had one in a couple years.

I know this comes off as a rant, but i'd also like to do like as some other soldiers and get to do ( maybe compete) in sports I enjoy through the military. Yet the only teams i've heard of here in Pet, are the base soccer team, Coy running team and the Ironman.  None of which are up my alley.  Running in general does not interest me so i'm for sure not going to compete in it. This base is running crazed!


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## REDinstaller (15 Jul 2010)

Better read the dates on most of those plaques at the Base gym. 1946-1980's when the troops had nothing else to do in their spare time but form sports teams and complete with other units/ bases. Maybe only a handfull had cars, and no internet or computers. This is why the CF sports program was so successful back then, no money to see the country with...join a team and travel on the units dime to beat someone.


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## Biggoals2bdone (15 Jul 2010)

This is a valid point, but boxing and MMA are actually NOT approved sports according to soem CANFORGEN. As well as a multitude of other sports.  I'm also wondering why unlike MANY of the militaries of the world we do not have some institutionalized form of combatives taught to everyone.


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## Old Sweat (15 Jul 2010)

Boxing was very big in the Canadian Army (Regular) in the fifties and early sixties. Our last CDS - Lieutenant General Walsh - was big on boxing. There was an active inter-unit sports program, with successful teams mioving up to higher levels of competition. Unit sports teams included hockey, fast ball, skiing, track and field, basket ball, boxing and, in Europe, tug of war. Most units had sports platoons/troops whose members were excused all other duties. Even more so, of course, if they brought home trophies, which the army's leadership considered an indicater of operational readiness and military effectiveness. 

I was a member of sports troop in track and field in 4 RCHA in 1960 for a few weeks before the big match, and then thankfully rejoined my real troop in the field. A few weeks later I was placed on waivers and picked up for officer training.

The drain on resources of "professional soldier athletes" persisted into the seventies. It was not just a feature of the Canadian Army, as the Brits and others did the same.


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## REDinstaller (15 Jul 2010)

MMA will IMHO never gain approved status in the CF. Too many career ending injuries will be sustained, hence why broomball the only contact sport in the CF no longer has regionals or nationals. Hockeys no hit rating was awarded a few years ago due to too many people getting hurt, thus draining available manpower to deploy with.


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## fischer10 (15 Jul 2010)

Are we allowed to enroll ourselves in off-base MMA's? I took Ju-Jitsu for 3 years (stopped about 2-3 years back) and was hoping to get back into it... Going to be a heart breaker if I am not allowed to do it


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## 4815162342 (15 Jul 2010)

Tango18A said:
			
		

> MMA will IMHO never gain approved status in the CF. Too many career ending injuries will be sustained...



I respectfully disagree.

Mixed Martial Arts is statistically speaking the least dangerous combative sport in the world. (proven by several commissions; references avail. if needed.)

Regardless though, I find you may have missed the point BigGoals was trying to make, which is, Self Defense, Militant Combatives Programs, Close Counter Hand to Hand Combat, Grappling, and tactical applications of submission holds etc, are imperative in the well roundedness of a soldier say in the Russian Militia where they drill Sambo Grappling like it was religion, or in the US Army where they have been doing the Gracie Jiu-jitsu Armed Combatives Courses for the last 4 years now and previous types of martial arts as well.

After commenting on the above, maybe you can answer this: do you think the implementation of a rigorous Martial Arts program that teaches everything from the right way to throw a Round House Kick through to how to subdue and submit an opponent, be  well invested in addition to the Canadian Soldier? how much do you agree/dis?


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## dapaterson (16 Jul 2010)

4815162342 said:
			
		

> Regardless though, I find you may have missed the point BigGoals was trying to make, which is, Self Defense, Militant Combatives Programs, Close Counter Hand to Hand Combat, Grappling, and tactical applications of submission holds etc, are imperative in the well roundedness of a soldier say in the Russian Militia where they drill Sambo Grappling like it was religion, or in the US Army where they have been doing the Gracie Jiu-jitsu Armed Combatives Courses for the last 4 years now and previous types of martial arts as well.



"Imperative in the well roundedness"?

Interesting.  I'd think that marksmanship would be rather more sueful - putting down a target at 300m means you're not kicking at it within 1.5m.



> After commenting on the above, maybe you can answer this: do you think the implementation of a rigorous Martial Arts program that teaches everything from the right way to throw a Round House Kick through to how to subdue and submit an opponent, be  well invested in addition to the Canadian Soldier? how much do you agree/dis?



No use to the overwhelming majority.  While it may encourage some aggressiveness it's not a core skillset needed; there's little enough time to accomplish the must-dos and some of the nice-to-dos in training; adding not-neededs to the list serves no one.


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## Michael OLeary (16 Jul 2010)

Can anyone point to a thread here where, based on recent combat arms experiences in Afghanistan, someone has made the case that there was a shortfall in unarmed combatives?  I know we have a very long and inconclusive thread about the usefulness of the bayonet on the modern battlefield, but is there any similar commentary on any style of unarmed combat skills being a shortfall in recent combat.


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## REDinstaller (16 Jul 2010)

4815162342,

I can't foresee any time soon where 1 Fd Amb or any other support unit will require to close with and destroy the enemy in hand to hand. I haven't missed any part of his point. MMA is not recognized by the CF as a sport, all stop. I would like you to look further into WHO in the US Army is taking training in Gracie jiu-jitsu, and I am quite positive it isn't the whole US Army, only select units that require this sort of training. The only trade in the CF that has a mandate to CLOSE with and destroy the enemy is the Infantry. At no time in my opinion should most pers be given Martial arts training for use in a Combat enviorment. That is why we are issued Bayonets, Pistols, and Grenades. These are the close in weapons of choice for the CF. The Unarmed combat course is given to those that require it. Now we can get back online with Sports in the CF.


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## REDinstaller (16 Jul 2010)

To the best of my knowledge there has been no hand to hand in AFG by our troops, why close with them when a HESH from 300m will do just fine.


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## Michael OLeary (16 Jul 2010)

To return this thread to the discussion of sports in general within the CF, I have no doubt that once the busy-ness of the current operational cycle, and the funding for training, diminishes, then sports and ceremonial will both start to fill time in units with the personnel and energy to spare.

Other comments I have made with regard to sports in regimental life, which I have published elsewhere, include:



> One aspect of regimental life that is commonly misinterpreted is the role of sports. Sports may take the role of a fitness and bonding activity, or they may be a mechanism to promote and highlight competitiveness. Sports for fitness, conducted by junior officers or NCOs, are an ideal mechanism for soldiers to learn to work together, to expand their awareness of one another’s personalities and reactions, and to improve overall levels of fitness. This works particularly well when the activity and intensity support the general interaction without creating internal segregation by skill or experience levels.
> 
> Intramural sports programs, where the soldiers of platoons and companies compete within the unit, can be healthy. This develops primary group pride, but must be established to ensure that every soldier contributes to collective victories, or shared responsibility for losses. When a varied selection of activities allows every soldier to participate, than the sporting program, taken collectively, becomes the primary group strengthening exercise, not any one sport in itself.
> 
> When the attraction of ‘winning’ begins to overshadow the values of wide-spread participation and associated primary group benefits, then sports can actually become a corrupting influence on the Regimental System. It is a false premise that unit sports teams necessarily contribute to unit pride. When team members are removed from field training, or excused other work, for practices and games, the shared experience test for developing Regimental esprit de corps is failed. Other soldiers now must bear the additional responsibility and work caused by the departure of team members, who may well be seen as pampered prima donnas by peers who may be better soldiers, but less skilled athletes. Victory in inter-unit sports competitions may bode well across the Brigade Commander’s conference table, but it means little in the men’s mess.


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## Jarnhamar (16 Jul 2010)

fischer10 said:
			
		

> Are we allowed to enroll ourselves in off-base MMA's? I took Ju-Jitsu for 3 years (stopped about 2-3 years back) and was hoping to get back into it... Going to be a heart breaker if I am not allowed to do it



Yup.



			
				4815162342 said:
			
		

> I respectfully disagree.
> 
> Mixed Martial Arts is statistically speaking the least dangerous combative sport in the world. (proven by several commissions; references avail. if needed.)


The CF won't care. You can argue until you're blue in the face and quote jesus, someone in the CF thinks it's too dangerous so you're out of luck.
There are also some serious injuries in martial arts. May be the least dangerous combative sport but it's still a combative sport. Somehow I doubt punching people in the face and choking people see's less injuries then fencing or something.




> After commenting on the above, maybe you can answer this: do you think the implementation of a rigorous Martial Arts program that teaches everything from the right way to throw a Round House Kick through to how to subdue and submit an opponent, be  well invested in addition to the Canadian Soldier? how much do you agree/dis?


You want to throw a round house kick wearing body armor plates and a chest rig? 
Do you think 45 year old mothers of 3 (while tough badass's in their own right) will want to take rigorous martial arts training with some 18 and 20 year olds?  Or go home after work with black eyes, fat lips, blood noses?

The MIRs FILL UP with soldiers when there are brigade runs...

Martial arts needs to be done off the clock or at platoon level for the combat arms.


Edit, sorry Michael, posted after you.

I heard back in the day the battalions favored their sports stars and it created a lot of bad blood.

A few years ago I remember driving 3 hours through a brutal snow storm in Bosnia just to switch an all star hockey player who was on gate duty with another soldier so the first guy could go and play in the hockey tournament.


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## REDinstaller (16 Jul 2010)

I think the fact of the men caring little for inter unit sports is not too true today. Its one of the few outlets they have left to prove who in the Bde is best. But even better is Xmas sports day Tpr/Cpls vs MCpls and SNCOs vs Officers. Everyone wants to pummel the Officers. That kind of competition brings out the best in a Regt. And does away for the most part with cliquey teams that only the select few get to be on.


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## fischer10 (16 Jul 2010)

Thanks for the fast reply Apollo 

Just my opinion (not worth anything)....Soldiers don't need it for the battle field in many ways we fight. But, it does build confidence and of course is fun and good way to stay in shape/muscle activation of the over all body. Clearly the ability to enroll yourself in an off-base program is sufficient enough with current fighting styles.

NOW, training people to use a Katana or other sword would clearly be the way to go!  haha, just jokes (though, it would be awesome to be a pro at using a Katana), more time spent on fire arm accuracy and vehicle skills would be better


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## FyroniK (16 Jul 2010)

If MMA is not even approved in ONTARIO, then why would anyone have hope for it in the Forces ?


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## Biggoals2bdone (16 Jul 2010)

USMC and IDF train ALL their mbrs to a minimum level in their combatives, and some mbrs get to advance with training to higher/more advanced levels.

I'm also fairly certain that the US Army does as well.
Just to name a few.



			
				Tango18A said:
			
		

> 4815162342,
> 
> I can't foresee any time soon where 1 Fd Amb or any other support unit will require to close with and destroy the enemy in hand to hand. I haven't missed any part of his point. MMA is not recognized by the CF as a sport, all stop. I would like you to look further into WHO in the US Army is taking training in Gracie jiu-jitsu, and I am quite positive it isn't the whole US Army, only select units that require this sort of training. The only trade in the CF that has a mandate to CLOSE with and destroy the enemy is the Infantry. At no time in my opinion should most pers be given Martial arts training for use in a Combat enviorment. That is why we are issued Bayonets, Pistols, and Grenades. These are the close in weapons of choice for the CF. The Unarmed combat course is given to those that require it. Now we can get back online with Sports in the CF.


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## Task (16 Jul 2010)

I think we are arguing two different points here.

1) Should MMA be taught for combat effectiveness. (General training for all)

2) Should MMA be allowed as a sport in the CF. (Specific training for those who want)

I think (point 2) that MMA and many other sports should be allowed back into the CF. While I believe currently there is not enough time for the CF to devote to Nationals in most sports. During such time there should be moratoriums on sports, NOT removal of the sport from the CF.

Sport has a unique way of building espirt du corps at the same time building physical fitness, strength in character and teamwork. The more options members have the more involved the entire CF will be. 

WARNING the following is purely speculation and not necessarily fact:
I think ONE of the reasons some of our members are fat is that when people in the past organized PT they turned them into high intensity death sessions (hurting members). These sessions left a fowl taste for PT in some who were then subsequently promoted. However, these members still hold this animosity and lack the political will to change and, or,  enforce current regulations. IMO sport will help this situation for the future. More sports = more people involved in activities they like = fitter general population.

Vancouvers point of view on MMA:
http://communities.canada.com/vancouversun/blogs/groundandpound/archive/2009/12/17/vancouver-city-council-to-approve-regulated-mma-thursday-morning.aspx

Injury stats in MMA (could not find a current one):
www.mmamania.com/2008/04/16/mma-injuries-report-a-five-year-review-2002-2007/

Most dangerous sports in the world (I would not have guessed #5):
listverse.com/2009/06/18/top-10-incredibly-dangerous-sports/


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## TimBit (16 Jul 2010)

> These sessions left a fowl taste for PT in some who were then subsequently promoted



What's wrong with that? I love duck and goose.

Sorry, I couldn't resist...

P.s.: it's foul


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## REDinstaller (16 Jul 2010)

Well hopefully once the deployments to TFA cease the Army can begin to become competitive in regional sports again. I know it would be a welcome outlet.


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## Jarnhamar (16 Jul 2010)

fischer10 said:
			
		

> Thanks for the fast reply Apollo
> 
> Just my opinion (not worth anything)....Soldiers don't need it for the battle field in many ways we fight. But, it does build confidence and of course is fun and good way to stay in shape/muscle activation of the over all body. Clearly the ability to enroll yourself in an off-base program is sufficient enough with current fighting styles.
> 
> NOW, training people to use a Katana or other sword would clearly be the way to go!  haha, just jokes (though, it would be awesome to be a pro at using a Katana), more time spent on fire arm accuracy and vehicle skills would be better



Martial arts are awesome.  It's very physically demanding.  Spar for 5 minutes in BJJ and you'll see what I mean.  It's a great way to learn how to fight, help with fitness, strength your body and flexability.   
It's better done on your own time thats all.   The army isn't exactly about vehicle skills and firearms accuracy compared to being "pro" at a Katana but you'll learn all about that.

Task,


> WARNING the following is purely speculation and not necessarily fact:
> I think ONE of the reasons some of our members are fat is that when people in the past organized PT they turned them into high intensity death sessions (hurting members). These sessions left a fowl taste for PT in some



I think you have a valid point here.


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## CorporalMajor (16 Jul 2010)

4815162342 said:
			
		

> I respectfully disagree.
> 
> Mixed Martial Arts is statistically speaking the least dangerous combative sport in the world. (proven by several commissions; references avail. if needed.)
> 
> ...



The first point is true.  In Western Boxing or Kickboxing, it's pretty much all blows to the head and midsection, esp the former.   In MMA, fights can begin and end with very little striking involved.

I do Muay Thai at an MMA/BJJ/Thaiboxing school in Ottawa.  (See OAMA.CA)  Its owner is a Gracie BJJ blackbelt,a TJJ blackbelt under Therein and has taught JTF-2, Pathfinders, etc in self-defence, combatitves, et al.   

The US Army indeed has something called a Combatives Tourney, based on its unarmed combat.   It sounds like hell, but sure seems fun.  
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=us+army+combatives+tournament&meta=&aq=5&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=Us+Army+comba&gs_rfai=

The USMC have their own MMA curriculum, MCMAP, as well.  




My view?   ABSOLUTELY,  Boxing, Kickboxing/MT, BJJ, MMA should be made CF sports.  It would be awesome to compete in the CF/NATO.  As PT they are OUTSTANDING form of Cardio, good for flexibility, good for strength training.  Try it, and you will be sucking wind in no time.  Most of the cats I train with are fitter than many soldiers I have met...... 

Yes, even MMA and BJJ have their risks of injury, but so do running, so does hockey even without the fistfights.  Football and Rugby would be awesome.  Sadly, I will only ever be able to do martial arts on my own time.  

Would soldiers benefit from it in terms of practical use, well of course.  
- MPs, as policemen would benefit greatly from practicing martial arts such as Boxing, Judo, BJJ et al since cops can find themselves in a fistfight, or find themselves arresting an unwilling suspect, etc  
- The same is true for anyone involved with Search & Detain, or anyone doing any kind of security-related work in theatre.  I am sure if you get an unruly and violent detainee in a good Judo-esque joint-lock, they would cooperate fast....  
- Again, my school has had instructors contracted to teach BJJ/TJJ techniques to Pathfinder course candidates.   I think many combat troops could benefit from it.   Infantry especially, same with anyone else who winds up fighting beside them.

We need to remember, ofc, the winner of each fight, is whoever's buddy shows up with the gun first.


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## dapaterson (16 Jul 2010)

Tango18A said:
			
		

> Well hopefully once the deployments to TFA cease the Army can begin to become competitive in regional sports again. I know it would be a welcome outlet.



Yeah, that whole "doing the job you train for and are paid for" really gets in the way of the _important_ things.


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## REDinstaller (16 Jul 2010)

Yes vice hearing you can't play any sports for the Mens Xmas dinner due to being on Op reserve.


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## Michael OLeary (16 Jul 2010)

Tango18A said:
			
		

> Yes vice hearing you can't play any sports for the Mens Xmas dinner due to being on Op reserve.



You can probably blame Broom-a-loo casualty rates for decisions like that.


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## REDinstaller (16 Jul 2010)

Defiantly not a Strathcona game. The PPCLI are the Kings of Broom-a-loo.


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## Biggoals2bdone (16 Jul 2010)

I just want to go back to the excuse/argument of the 35-40yr old moms who are troops not wanting to get beat up doing Combatives training.  

1. Its the military...you're bound to get beat up, muddy/dirty whatever sometime, suck it up.
2. What happened to the concept of soldier/rifleman first, where we are not supposed to define ourselves by our trade FIRST. Hence we are supposed to be Warriors in essence, some controlled aggression training would do us some good, as well as being good for our PT.
3. Hell I don't like having my knees hurt like someone swung a bat, and limping because of all the running we do...but hey guess what I HAVE TO.

So if ever the CF smartened up and instituted some combatives training, troops who don't want to do said PT...can pull pin.


Other point I have is I don't think Coy or Regimental or whatever teams should be exempt from unit PT, to go train with whatever team they are on, for the pure simple fact that its UNIT PT, its there to build esprit de corps, familiarity with your peers.  Really also its just a huge pain in the butt, that all the pers who can't find some team in the CF, because of lack of diversity, end up doing all the training on their own time, and money.


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## OldSolduer (16 Jul 2010)

Tango18A said:
			
		

> Defiantly not a Strathcona game. The PPCLI are the Kings of Broom-a-loo.



You be we are!!! And its Broom-i-loo. ;D


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## REDinstaller (16 Jul 2010)

I've heard that the 1st Bn is the best at it.


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## OldSolduer (16 Jul 2010)

Tango18A said:
			
		

> I've heard that the 1st Bn is the best at it.



Oh really? LOL..... ;D


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## Task (16 Jul 2010)

"What's wrong with that? I love duck and goose.

Sorry, I couldn't resist...

P.s.: it's foul"

TimBit
Hah! In my defence I only had one coffee when I wrote it. On second thought I may have wrote it wrong now as well 

On another note... How do you quote someone from another page ie page 1?


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## fischer10 (16 Jul 2010)

Task said:
			
		

> "What's wrong with that? I love duck and goose.
> 
> Sorry, I couldn't resist...
> 
> ...



You co to the comment and "quote" is in the top right of the post 

Back to Sports:

Since you have to enroll in an off-base MMA, how much time do you get to do such things? I'm not even through basic yet (lol), just curious


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## Michael OLeary (16 Jul 2010)

fischer10 said:
			
		

> Since you have to enroll in an off-base MMA, how much time do you get to do such things? I'm not even through basic yet (lol), just curious



When you're not on course, away on a tasking, on operational deployment, or undergoing any other training that requires more that a "normal" workday, you can generally expect your day to run between 0700 and 1700.  It may start later some days or in some jobs, it may end earlier or run later some times. When you are in your home garrison and none of the above factors apply, your evenings and weekends are your own.


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## fischer10 (16 Jul 2010)

I cant wait to be in (~50 more days till BMQ)! Sounds like my first year is going to be busy busy! No time for extracurricular activities


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## Jarnhamar (17 Jul 2010)

Martial arts is taught as a part of the pathfinder course?





			
				Biggoals2bdone said:
			
		

> I just want to go back to the excuse/argument of the 35-40yr old moms who are troops not wanting to get beat up doing Combatives training.
> 
> 1. Its the military...you're bound to get beat up, muddy/dirty whatever sometime, suck it up.


Uh huh


> 2. What happened to the concept of soldier/rifleman first


In that case that allocated time would be better spent improving weapons drills and fitness. (more fitness than gained from martial arts)


> where we are not supposed to define ourselves by our trade FIRST. Hence we are supposed to be Warriors in essence, some controlled aggression training would do us some good, as well as being good for our PT.


In our perfect world you'll take a BOR full of clerks throw them some weapons and they'll stack up and clean rooms with the best of them. They'll bench their own body weight and fight off gurkia's with a knife.    
The state of our military will just not support that type of program/mentality. We need to fix other problems first. (MIR commandos, people exempt from PT)
The states can pull it off because right from day 1 in boot camp physical fitness is paramopunt. They can kick you out for being out of shape pretty easily down there.


> 3. Hell I don't like having my knees hurt like someone swung a bat, and limping because of all the running we do...but hey guess what I HAVE TO.


You choose to.


> So if ever the CF smartened up and instituted some combatives training, troops who don't want to do said PT...can pull pin.


We can hardly get soldiers deploying onto ranges to do shooting.  A CF wide combatives program would never work.
We can't even train all the recruits we have in basic training and their primary trade. Where are you going to find all these qualified instructors? Money for all the saftey equipment?   How do we agree on what to teach?  You see how long it takes to make any decision in the CF.  What's the criteria? The CF won't be wowed by throwing gracie around (get it? ha).  What's the chances of us adopting something totally crap?  You'd "have" to do it..



> Other point I have is I don't think Coy or Regimental or whatever teams should be exempt from unit PT, to go train with whatever team they are on, for the pure simple fact that its UNIT PT, its there to build esprit de corps, familiarity with your peers.  Really also its just a huge pain in the butt, that all the pers who can't find some team in the CF, because of lack of diversity, end up doing all the training on their own time, and money.


What if you're a hardcore BJJ MMA type guy and the CF decides they want a combatives program that's basically Taekwondo, Aikido or Karate?
Are you going to goto you're daily morning taekwondo class then goto your own BJJ at night?

The idea is cool but it won't work yet thats all.


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## fischer10 (18 Jul 2010)

"We can hardly get soldiers deploying onto ranges to do shooting. "

Really??? How can you not want to shoot things?!?! (As you can see I come from the country lol...)


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## Biggoals2bdone (18 Jul 2010)

> 3. Hell I don't like having my knees hurt like someone swung a bat, and limping because of all the running we do...but hey guess what I HAVE TO.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm curious as to how I chose to have my knees hurt that bad...or how I chose what the CSM decides for PT....


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## Oh No a Canadian (18 Jul 2010)

fischer10 said:
			
		

> "We can hardly get soldiers deploying onto ranges to do shooting. "
> 
> Really??? How can you not want to shoot things?!?! (As you can see I come from the country lol...)



he means it rarely happens, not that nobody wants to.


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## CorporalMajor (18 Jul 2010)

Apollo Diomedes said:
			
		

> Martial arts is taught as a part of the pathfinder course?


 I don't know if it is taught each time since, but they've done it before.  At one of my school's locations there are two pictures of our head BJJ instructor/president and one of our Brown-belts posing with course students.  One picture has all their faces cropped.   One of the pictures might be JTF2 students, we have  a plaque from JTF2 thanking them for teaching things.  There is also a letter from some Capt representing the Pathfinder school thanking them.  

http://www.oama.ca/pat.php

Yes, it's impossible to do this for every soldier we have.  Do we not have some unarmed combat course?  I think infantry, MPs can get it?


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## Halifax Tar (18 Jul 2010)

Just an FYI if your looking for a good sport with great cardio and a strong physical aspect check out the Upper Ottawa Valley "Lumberjacks" Rugby Club. U
Its run out of Pet, its brand new and I am sure they are always looking for more players...


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## Jarnhamar (18 Jul 2010)

fischer10 said:
			
		

> "We can hardly get soldiers deploying onto ranges to do shooting. "
> 
> Really??? How can you not want to shoot things?!?! (As you can see I come from the country lol...)



It's not for lack of desire but heavily booked training areas. OR, your platoon booked a range a month in advance and on the day you drive out to the range you have to turn around because someone else with a bigger stick bumped you off.



			
				Biggoals2bdone said:
			
		

> I'm curious as to how I chose to have my knees hurt that bad...or how I chose what the CSM decides for PT....


I mean you choose to be in the military that's all.  If someone doesn't like doing PT they can quit, or try and change the routine.
I'm with you that running every day, day after day can suck. It's boring and it doesn't keep soldiers interested and motivated.  Don't you get the option of platoon or section PT?  I've sene truckers switch between running, crossfit, going to the gym and doing BJJ.


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## Biggoals2bdone (18 Jul 2010)

I don't hate PT. I just think there are FAR better ways of conducting PT then just running (from someone who's been in the fitness/exercise industry for close to 10yrs, not just a punk) 

Also goes back to troop morale, i'd say the majority (at least 3/4) of my platoon would be a lot happier and probably in better shape if the PT/Training was approached more long term, and intelligently, with some variety and forethought as to the development and periodization of the training. Training the various aspects of fitness, because in general the military trains very little in terms of strength, flexibility, balance, etc, its mostly running, we could do endurance work in the pool, and many other places, and reap more benefits with less disadvantages (i.e how many people have bad knees or ankles from all the running they did through the CF)  also the pool for example would be a total body workout, and also an added skill, since some people don't even know how to swim.

The way PT is done now is, meh lets go for a run, basically people just think of tomorrow...whereas we should be thinking of training for months down the line.


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## REDinstaller (18 Jul 2010)

And what are you doing to change this within your platoon? I does no good to gripe if you don't have a plan prepared for enabling change. Have you talked with your sect comd? If you can sell him a plan, with the benefits and detractions. Then he can sell it at the platoon lvl, and then Coy lvl.


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## Task (18 Jul 2010)

Apollo Diomedes said:
			
		

> The state of our military will just not support that type of program/mentality. We need to fix other problems first. (MIR commandos, people exempt from PT
> 
> The states can pull it off because right from day 1 in boot camp physical fitness is paramopunt. They can kick you out for being out of shape pretty easily down there.



I disagree. If you fix the mentality you will fix the MIR situation, at least in part. Our military can and does support that mentality at the (some) unit(s) level.

While MIR commandos will always exist, having an aggressive no fail culture will reduce it. Either through the mentality change or through the reduction of those "type" of members in the CF.

The States also went through the same weight issues as us, particularly in their Air Force (circa 2002). But as you indicated started at the roots and curbed the culture back to a warrior ethos. It took many years, and there are still issues, but it was(is) effective.

This was the start:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4191/is_20000701/ai_n9974428/

The Air Force chief of staff, Gen. Michael Ryan, ordered the changes in May for a few reasons: a Department of Defense order for all the services to test for strength, flexibility and aerobic capacity; recent findings showing that 20 percent of Air Force members are overweight; and the Air Force moving to become a more mobile force.


Now is the time to implement these ideals as our recruitment is at it's peak and will have the largest audience for the future. With large numbers of fresh minds entering it is up to us to impress upon them the importance of physical fitness. 

All this being said I do not support the traditional forced PT. Which brings me back to the forum topic. IMO many, many sports and athletic options need to be available to create the internal motivation(personally decided) , incorporated with scheduled core training (unit decided) that allows for greater performance in your chosen field. With an annual test with true repercussions (CF decided).


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## Biggoals2bdone (18 Jul 2010)

Tango18A said:
			
		

> And what are you doing to change this within your platoon? I does no good to gripe if you don't have a plan prepared for enabling change. Have you talked with your sect comd? If you can sell him a plan, with the benefits and detractions. Then he can sell it at the platoon lvl, and then Coy lvl.


Last time I checked Cpl's don't tell Lt's what to do.  Its hard to sell to the military in general that their PT system is horrible, when :
1. Lot of the higher ups are old crusty guys who were forced to run and bash their knees, so they want the next generation to do it too. 
2. Your CSM has a love affair with marathons. 
3. the pointy ended units seem to get precedence in booking training environments (gym, field house, obstacle course, army fitness centre, etc). 
4. Most people try to avoid PT and coast by on minimums, hell until last week I hadn't seen anyone above Sgt do PT at my unit. 
5. Some people just don't want to put in the time and effort to book gyms, spaces, etc because it takes more time and effort and forethought then saying ah well F it...lets go for a run. 

I would certainly be up to the task of putting together a periodized training program for 3-4 months, for my superiors to look at it, study it, maybe trial it, and actually give it some thought, if I thought there's was a snowballs chance in hell of the higher ups actually looking at it, and truly considering it.

Hell i'd be happy if we just switched over to Crossfit as THE CF pt system.


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## Jarnhamar (18 Jul 2010)

Task said:
			
		

> I disagree. If you fix the mentality you will fix the MIR situation, at least in part. Our military can and does support that mentality at the (some) unit(s) level.




I agree we need to fix the mentality, so how?   We can throw around catchy phrases like Warrior first! or Rifleman first!, but it's hollow.  The same with the way "train as you fight" is.   You're in the infantry and you've been in a long time, you know as well as I do how far that "train as you fight" crap goes.  It's Train as you fight, except when you're on the range, or under this that or the other circumstance. Oh and also under this clause....   
I remember sleeping in my body armor, tacvest, helmet BEWs and gloves on- inside an administrative hide for a week or two because the CSM wanted us to train how we fight and he was told that's what they were doing in the FOBs overseas. Sleeping in tents in full FFO, in 2009.
Going off on a tangent there sorry.  



> While MIR commandos will always exist, having an aggressive no fail culture will reduce it. Either through the mentality change or through the reduction of those "type" of members in the CF.


Right. And before we can cultivate that culture we need to remove all the things that allow people to get away with milking the system. You're talking about throwing people in a pool and say sink or swim, yes?  
 Right now it would be like throwing people in a pool telling them to sink or swim but having life vests beside them-and not really being able to punish them for grabbing the vest and  cheating - everybody passes!




> The States also went through the same weight issues as us, particularly in their Air Force (circa 2002). But as you indicated started at the roots and curbed the culture back to a warrior ethos. It took many years, and there are still issues, but it was(is) effective.


They do have a hardcore warrior ethos don't they? Overseas you ask a Canadian cpl in KAF for help and they'll say sorry it's 415, I finished at 4 and I'm going for supper.  
You ask an American sergeant major or Chief for something (work related of courses)  and they _ jump_ to help you.  Woe to one of his soldiers who doesn't give 110% trying to help out.



> Now is the time to implement these ideals as our recruitment is at it's peak and will have the largest audience for the future. With large numbers of fresh minds entering it is up to us to impress upon them the importance of physical fitness.


Agree.  Joining the CF should be a competition. Our goal shouldn't be a reflection of  races and genders in society, numbers and stats. It should be the smartest and fastest.



> All this being said I do not support the traditional forced PT. Which brings me back to the forum topic. IMO many, many sports and athletic options need to be available to create the internal motivation(personally decided) , incorporated with scheduled core training (unit decided) that allows for greater performance in your chosen field. With an annual test with true repercussions (CF decided).


I was surprised by the number of guys in the infantry battalion that would manage to find ways of skipping PT. They'd stay in bed or sit in the shacks and play video games.  We're not in a position to trust the average soldier to keep their PT up.

Personally I can't stand sports and mandatory sports are even worse.  People just aren't that interested in sports anymore, their lives are too busy.  I find forcing soldiers to play sports is like forcing them to goto the mess.


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## Michael OLeary (18 Jul 2010)

Biggoals2bdone said:
			
		

> Last time I checked Cpl's don't tell Lt's what to do.  Its hard to sell to the military in general that their PT system is horrible, when : ....



So put some effort into it and make your case here.

Get past the complaining stage and make yourself heard using the existing system.  That's what these Corporals did.


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## REDinstaller (18 Jul 2010)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> So put some effort into it and make your case here.
> 
> Get past the complaining stage and make yourself heard using the existing system.  That's what these Corporals did.





A very good example of how Cpls can influence doctrine and training. It might not become evident right a way, but with some perseverance, much can be accomplished.


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## Nostix (18 Jul 2010)

Although we can certainly hope that "Drawing straws" to determine which elements of the Navy to keep and which to sell never makes it into official policy. 

 ;D


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## REDinstaller (18 Jul 2010)

What does that have to do with Sports in the CF? ???


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## Nostix (18 Jul 2010)

> We should reduce the number of frigates to six, with three on each coast.
> To figure out which ones are paid-off and sold (make more money), we should take the mayor of each ship’s namesake city and let them draw straws.
> Whoever gets the six longest ones are the ships we keep.



From the paper posted above as an example of Cpl's making themselves heard.


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## REDinstaller (18 Jul 2010)

Their paper was an example for Biggoals2bedone of how Cpls have an ability to influence their situations by putting solutions on paper and sending them up the chain. Instead of just bellyaching about how something is wrong, and doing nothing about it.


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## Michael OLeary (18 Jul 2010)

Nostix said:
			
		

> From the paper posted above as an example of Cpl's making themselves heard.



The point was that they got their opinions out in front of the Army and read by many influential people, are you suggesting that one small excerpt invalidates the process and the opportunity?


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## Nostix (18 Jul 2010)

Nothing in my amused, offhand response would seem to give that impression, so no.


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## Michael OLeary (18 Jul 2010)

Nostix said:
			
		

> Nothing in my amused, offhand response would seem to give that impression, so no.



My apologies, I thought you might have been trying to make a point with relevance to the ongoing discussion. But since you offered no context, I was left to ask what you meant.


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## armychick2009 (18 Jul 2010)

I don't think that it's just fitness in the CF that is an issue but fitness overall in Canadian society. I don't know really yet what PT is like in the forces yet but - I've got a pretty good idea based on my ex-husband's stories, my brothers, my cousins, my friends... but, I'd like to share this story from last year....

I was working in a class of 28 grade 7's, mostly between the ages of 12 and 16. I had to teach them all subjects, including gym.  After the first two weeks of them playing Dr. Murder Ball (AKA, dodge Ball), I decided enough was enough. (I was a mid-school year replacement teacher).... 

One day I had set out a circuit, a simple one. Do 5 sit-ups, 5 push-ups, 5 burpees.... and a few other things.

No one would do any of the sit-ups, push-ups or burpees. No one KNEW what a burpee was. Only one person knew what a sit-up was... and NO ONE would (or could) do a push-up. 

It took me three days of pushing the SAME lesson to get them to even TRY a sit-up.... it was like pulling teeth.  And, it took two whole weeks of doing this every other day, before I could even get ANYONE to finish them. (They were allowed to do half-push-ups...)

Fitness is NOT a priority with kids, at all. To give you an idea, I had multiple kids have outbursts of anger and frustration... three suspensions in that whole effort. Most were too shy of their weight to even try them, because only three or four of those kids in the entire class were even close to a healthy level of weight.


By the end, I told them where I was joining and was able to get some of the girls interested in doing some of the workouts based on that. "A girl soldier? Really? Coooool."


Remember, these kids are only three to five years off from being eligible to join the forces! Our whole society needs a big change-up.


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## REDinstaller (18 Jul 2010)

Burpees....ewwww. I hate them with a passion, almost as much as mountain climbers. But you a right, todays kids are wired for sound. Too many electronic gadgets preventing them from doing what I did as a kid, explore the world outside my windows.


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## Task (18 Jul 2010)

Apollo Diomedes said:
			
		

> I agree we need to fix the mentality, so how?



Hmmm good point. For me personally I have always been concerned (meddled) with my peers and subordinates impression of PT. I have limited myself from changing the bigger picture, where now with little time left I wonder should I have.
That said to implement cultural change of this nature has to be done at least at Unit level. Any lower will only last as long as a rotation. 

To change:

1) Create a sense of urgency.

2) Select change agents (People who are highly motivated for the cause);
- Ensure they have more resources than people opposed to the change and make it obvious (favouritism) follow these people and be rewarded.

3) Ownership. Get input from all subordinates and implement their ideas (with your guidance to the goal) so that the "change" is their idea. (important grass roots)

4) Be clear on what the end state is <vision>. 

5) Create success stories and heroes for people to emulate (there must be history for culture to exist).

6) Fire, replace leaders in key positions who are opposed. (This one is touchy  )  



			
				Apollo Diomedes said:
			
		

> Right. And before we can cultivate that culture we need to remove all the things that allow people to get away with milking the system. You're talking about throwing people in a pool and say sink or swim, yes?



Yup, but unfortunately those procedures are way out of my arcs. So in essence it is what I want but I am not sure how to tackle that.



			
				Apollo Diomedes said:
			
		

> Agree.  Joining the CF should be a competition. Our goal shouldn't be a reflection of  races and genders in society, numbers and stats. It should be the smartest and fastest.



Agreed. 



			
				Apollo Diomedes said:
			
		

> I was surprised by the number of guys in the infantry battalion that would manage to find ways of skipping PT. They'd stay in bed or sit in the shacks and play video games.  We're not in a position to trust the average soldier to keep their PT up.



I've used a motivational message that has worked well for me. For the fit guy: "Do you see that guy there <point to motivated soldier>. He is working his butt off so that he can be his best when the poo hits the fan and be there for his team. When he looks at you, not trying because you are fit already, do you think he trusts you won't quit on him then when you won't try now?

For the not fit guy "Do you want to be that guy? The one who can't keep up and gets his friends killed."

With Afghanistan so prevalent people realize that it's the truth. It hits home pretty quick.

During my basic my section commander was from CAR (can't for the life of me remember his name). He impressed upon me like no other has to this day. Every night he would tuck us in with "get ready!" and end with "jab!". We would scream an edited "warrior" version of 23rd Psalm. Everything we did he did first. He was (is) the ideal change agent. We all had someone in our training that was that guy. It is up to all of us to aspire to be him/her and to inspire others to follow. 

Sorry for the sermon.


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## Fishbone Jones (18 Jul 2010)

Biggoals2bdone said:
			
		

> Last time I checked Cpl's don't tell Lt's what to do.  Its hard to sell to the military in general that their PT system is horrible, when :
> 1. Lot of the higher ups are old crusty guys who were forced to run and bash their knees, so they want the next generation to do it too.
> 2. Your CSM has a love affair with marathons.
> 3. the pointy ended units seem to get precedence in booking training environments (gym, field house, obstacle course, army fitness centre, etc).
> ...



Sounds like a massive amount of blame shifting, appeasment and an lack of determination to me.

As has been stated by those that have been detoxed from Crossfit, it ain't all that and shit, tied into a bow. You're simply trading one brainwashed regime for another.


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## Biggoals2bdone (18 Jul 2010)

You can call it whatever you want, its the reality of the situation, i've brought it up to the LT, in a smart thought out way, and she didn't quite shoot me down, but it was kind of like, ok leave me alone i'll take care of it and do what i want.

Crossfit is a sound base for training, if you drink the kool-aid so to speak as many do, then no you're not better off, i'm not saying to act like mindless crossfit zombies.

The training methodology is sound, but does need tweeking.


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## Michael OLeary (18 Jul 2010)

Biggoals2bdone said:
			
		

> You can call it whatever you want, its the reality of the situation, i've brought it up to the LT, in a smart thought out way, and she didn't quite shoot me down, but it was kind of like, ok leave me alone i'll take care of it and do what i want.



So, what you did was tell the Lieutenant that you had a better idea for PT, but you were going to leave it to her to do the research, writing and justification to put it into practice.  You were going to leave it to her to do all the work to sell the chain of command on letting her try it - if she chose to add all of that to her current workload.  

It's funny how nothing "kills" an idea faster than suggesting that the presenter of the idea actually do some of the groundwork and writing to build a plan of action.

That is why the "good idea bus" doesn't go anywhere, because the people riding the bus just want to toss out the ideas, and expect someone else to do the work to build a case for actioning them.


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## Fishbone Jones (18 Jul 2010)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> That is why the "good idea bus" doesn't go anywhere, because the people riding the bus just want to toss out the ideas, and expect someone else to do the work to build a case for actioning them.



Exactly.

Ding, ding! Let us off at the next stop. Someone else will have to drive this bus  ;D


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## Biggoals2bdone (18 Jul 2010)

Hey Mike...good job assuming facts not in evidence...i'll let you remember what happens when you ASSume.

What do you know I never just DUMPED it on the LT, as you imagine, she actually mentioned wanting my input in planning out the PT, since i've been into fitness so long and what not. So we were shooting the shit one afternoon, and I brought some ideas, which I mentioned I was just fleshing out, and would present more formally, and I basically got the wave off, and told she was already planning stuff, and basically didn't really need my input.

so next time before you go snubbing your nose at people...and making up the story of how things went in your mind...ASK, you'll look a lot less silly in the end.

AND if you would have taken the time to read things in this thread, i FULLY said i'd be glad to write up a few different ideas for training plans, hell I already have started, so again before you go labeling me as someone who wants things done but just wants to toss out ideas...edu-macate yourself on the situation.


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## Fishbone Jones (18 Jul 2010)

Biggoals2bdone said:
			
		

> Hey Mike...good job assuming facts not in evidence...i'll let you remember what happens when you ASSume.
> 
> What do you know I never just DUMPED it on the LT, as you imagine, she actually mentioned wanting my input in planning out the PT, since i've been into fitness so long and what not. So we were shooting the shit one afternoon, and I brought some ideas, which I mentioned I was just fleshing out, and would present more formally, and I basically got the wave off, and told she was already planning stuff, and basically didn't really need my input.
> 
> ...



So, rather than be the tough guy in the gym, let us know how you made out a year from now.

If things were misconstrued it was because of a lack of clarity. It behooves anyone posting on the internet to be very specific and clear. Readers can't be condemned because the poster wasn't coherent and complete.


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## Michael OLeary (18 Jul 2010)

Biggoals2bdone said:
			
		

> Hey Mike...good job assuming facts not in evidence...i'll let you remember what happens when you ASSume.
> 
> What do you know I never just DUMPED it on the LT, as you imagine, she actually mentioned wanting my input in planning out the PT, since i've been into fitness so long and what not. So we were shooting the crap one afternoon, and I brought some ideas, which I mentioned I was just fleshing out, and would present more formally, and I basically got the wave off, and told she was already planning stuff, and basically didn't really need my input.
> 
> ...



Funny how the facts come out after you get challenged.  Try presenting a complete case at the start to minimize the possibility that you might be only taken for the information you offer.


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## Biggoals2bdone (19 Jul 2010)

1. I don't know what the whole tough guy comment was about, you guys are the ones, started the assumptions and basically putting me down, didn't know not putting up with other people's crap and wrong assumptions meant i'm a tough guy, or is that because I think there's more to PT then running?

2. I love the old boys club on here, quick to defend each other no matter what, and also quick to jump on younger troops backs.  I didn't write out the long version of all the accounts, because I didn't think I needed to, I thought something more streamlined for the purposes of discussion was enough, and that I didn't need to break it down so much, but yet again the fabulous milnet crew proved me wrong, by as always, jumping the gun, shifting blame back onto the poster,  and giving their usual schpeal.

Thanks to all the people who had constructive comments, i'm pretty much done with this topic.  The mods can lock this if they want...we've totally gotten off topic, as usual, its gone from sports and/or pt (the issue) to something or someone else.

P.S Mike, like I said if you would have read earlier posts of mine (in this thread) you would have known the situation was not as you put it, you read one post, and came to your conclusions, so don't blame me for not getting enough of the story to come to a more appropriate conclusion


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## CorporalMajor (19 Jul 2010)

Did you talk with your peers and IC about it too?

If you have them to back you up, you might be taken more seriously.  

Best of luck and all.


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