# Physics Degree in the Air Force



## TheUniverse (1 Jan 2011)

Hello,

I am currently pursuing a physics degree in university, and I am interested in a military career after I graduate (DEO). Since the Air Force has always fascinated me, it would be a good starting point. I have been reading about various jobs (offered on forces.ca) as well as talking to people who are already a part of the Canadian Forces. So to keep it short, here are my questions: 

1) I am thinking of applying to be a pilot as it seems to be a very rewarding experience, however I noticed from reading the forums that I might need to wait for a while before being accepted (if at all), this concerns me since I do not want to put other possible career options on hold. 
a) If I apply to be an aerospace engineer for example, would I be able to transfer later on to be a pilot? 
b) Would you even recommend such option? or would it be better to keep applying  for a pilot until they have a spot?

2) I am thinking of a military career since it will allow me to explore different paths as I am definitely not interested to be a professor or be sitting all day long in an office in front of a computer solving problems...

If I am to apply to the Air Force I want to give 100% effort and dedication, but again I am rather afraid of the option of wasting my time doing a job in the military that does not allow me to reach my full potential or get a good experience for a future career in physics in case I will ever want to retire. I understand that it is similar to q. 1, but I would be glad if you can give me some sense as to whether the military should be an option to consider.

Thank you so much for time,


Side note: I'm adding some info below in case it somehow affects your answer.

- GPA 3.7 and fluency in 5 languages (French is one of them)
- Dedicating at least 2 hours daily to improve my physical condition (eg. preparation for triathlons and weight lifting)
- 20/20 vision and a good amount of knowledge regarding aviation and military aircraft in specific.
- have a firearms license and often practice in shooting ranges. 
- Volunteering often on campus, especially in positions that concentrate on leadership skills.


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## gcclarke (2 Jan 2011)

TheUniverse said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> I am currently pursuing a physics degree in university, and I am interested in a military career after I graduate (DEO). Since the Air Force has always fascinated me, it would be a good starting point. I have been reading about various jobs (offered on forces.ca) as well as talking to people who are already a part of the Canadian Forces. So to keep it short, here are my questions:
> 
> ...



1a: It's possible but I wouldn't count on it.
1b: I would very much so not recommend joining under one trade intending to do an Occupation Transfer to another trade. If you do so successfully, you'll have wasted years of your life and a whole load of taxpayer money. And generally speaking, it's usually a lot quicker to get your "target" trade by sticking it out until you can enroll under that trade. Please note that for pilot, it's entirely possible that the sticking it out strategy might not work either, as it's perpetually a very popular trade, and the pool of qualified candidates always outnumbers those positions available. 

Anyways, I wouldn't recommend joining as any trade unless you think you could be happy spending the entirety of your military career in that trade. 

2a (Why 2a when there's no 2b question by the way?): Well, I guess that depends upon what you consider your "full potential" is. I mean, no matter what choices you make in life, you'll open up some possibilities and close others. If you join as a pilot, it increases your likelihood of having a long fulfilling career as a pilot, but decreases the likelihood of doing much in the way of technical work. If you join as an AerE, it increases the likelihood of having a long fulfilling career as a AerE, but you're probably not going to be the CDS. 

As for the question of future careers in physics, well, you'll have to define that a bit further. Are we talking academia? CERN? Research or theory? 

Anyways, also, based upon your apparent distaste of "sitting in an office solving problems", I would frankly suggest that you not join up as a AerE, as you'll be spending a lot of time in an office in that position.


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## TheUniverse (2 Jan 2011)

Thanks for clearing up some things for me. Much appreciated!
Being a pilot is definitely a career that I'd be willing to invest my time in and build a career on, however its the uncertainty that comes with going in that path that keeps bothering me, but I think I will be the only one who can clear it up for myself. Thanks again for the input.

Regarding the future physics careers: I am currently concentrating on nuclear physics so CERN is an option I always keep in mind, but the further I go into it the more I realize that there are other options that appeal to me and my lifestyle more. Would you know by any chance if there is such an option to integrate military service with a possible career in the civilian world (similarly to USAF and NASA), or being able to pursue further education (masters or PhD) while serving with the air force?


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## Good2Golf (2 Jan 2011)

TU, the CF does not integrate research and development nearly as much as say, the USAF does with AFIT.  While DND does have Defence Research and Development Centres (DRDC) across Canada, they operate under the Associate Deputy Minister (Science and Technology), primarily focusing on operational applications of science towards operation.  The don't pursue theoretical science or provide post-graduate degrees in the way that AFIT does.  I wouldn't join thinking that after a career as a pilot, I would return to theoretical/nuclear physics.  My undergraduate degree is a physics major followed by post-graduate electrical engineering and defence management studies.  At this point in my career, I would never consider a return to Physics unless it was something like teaching, vice continuing research.  

Regards
G2G


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## gcclarke (2 Jan 2011)

Well, the Canadian Space Agency is an option, as evidenced by Col Chris Hadfield. As for other, non-Astronaut positions at the space agency that might be filled with Military personnel, I don't know how many there are, if any. Even at any of the DRDCs, you'll find military positions few and far between. One thing to keep in mind for the vast majority of "unique" positions out there is that they are still regular postings. You can still expect to be in and out in a 3ish year time frame. Astronaut being an obvious exception due to the massive cost involved to get them trained up.

As for post grad opportunities, there are many. A fair wide variety of Master's opportunities come up each year; which ones are open to you is based upon your trade and rank. And there's usually a few PhD opportunities available as well. If I recall correctly, last year Physics was one of the ones available. I would say that about 2/3rds of the Master's slots out there are for RMC, and the rest scattered about. All the PhD ones were for RMC.


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## TheUniverse (2 Jan 2011)

Good2Golf: 
Was your post-grad degree acquired through the RMC? or was it before joining the forces (ie. private)?
I would definitely agree with you that going from a career as a pilot back to theoretical physics is not something that I am too interested in doing either... however it is getting to a position where you have a career as a pilot that concerns me more... Or more precisely, if I am to apply to be a pilot and let's say end up waiting 3 years to get my training what am I supposed to do during these years?

gcclarke: 
You mentioned positions that last about 3 years, could you name some? or is there a list somewhere that specifies the length of expected service for each position?
Also, would doing my masters degree while waiting (if that ends up being the case) for an open position as a pilot be something realistic?

Thanks for the help guys!


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## gcclarke (2 Jan 2011)

TheUniverse said:
			
		

> gcclarke:
> You mentioned positions that last about 3 years, could you name some? or is there a list somewhere that specifies the length of expected service for each position?



Not really. That's usually around the max you can expect to stay in any one job from what I've seen. Sometimes you'll have a quicker turn-over, and sometimes it'll be longer. There's definitely outliers, I know one former CELE guy who stayed in the same job for about 9 years (He only managed this because the name of the project he was working on kept changing so as far as the career manager could tell he had been moving around). 


			
				TheUniverse said:
			
		

> Also, would doing my masters degree while waiting (if that ends up being the case) for an open position as a pilot be something realistic?



I do know some who have done so while waiting for their flight training, so yes, it's doable, if rare. One of the things about doing the Post-Grad through the forces is that after doing it, you have to work for whichever organization sponsored your PG for a couple years, so doing so before your flight training may delay said training, and thus the promotion that comes with completion. Might not be the best idea, and there's usually plenty of opportunity after the fact.


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## Good2Golf (2 Jan 2011)

TU, all my post-grad studies have been at RMC, but under an ILP (individual learning program) funded by CDA (Canadian Defence Academy) as part of a learning support program available to all members (roughly eqvt of $1000/year of service to a maximum of $20k, I believe).  There was no obligatory service associated with these post-graduate studies.

Regards
G2G


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## Zoomie (7 Jan 2011)

Smart people like you guys make me happy - I'll fly the planes, you guys do the thinking, K?


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## prima6 (12 Mar 2011)

As has been alluded to, entering the CF hoping for a career where you'll be able to gain substantial experience working in physics is probably going to be disappointing.  

Like gcclarke said, the CF has PG opportunities where they will send you to school for a specific program and then post you to a job requiring that specific training.  This is probably the better way to gain experience with a Master's degree in the CF.  Otherwise you're just hoping that the specific training you have would allow you to get one of these type of jobs.  For instance, I have an MSc. in Physics and my studies were in plasma physics (working on a Tokamak).  I did my MSc. while in the CF under a program not giving me a specific job in which to use this training at the end.  Even though I don't care about having a job in the CF where I use this degree, if I did I would have a very hard time finding one.  For my trade (ACSO) I might have a hope of getting one if I had done my studies in underwater acoustics (as an example).  Since the CF is unlikely () to begin a program requiring expertise in magnetically confined plasmas, I'm most likely SOL using my MSc.


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## SeaKingTacco (12 Mar 2011)

prima6 said:
			
		

> As has been alluded to, entering the CF hoping for a career where you'll be able to gain substantial experience working in physics is probably going to be disappointing.
> 
> Like gcclarke said, the CF has PG opportunities where they will send you to school for a specific program and then post you to a job requiring that specific training.  This is probably the better way to gain experience with a Master's degree in the CF.  Otherwise you're just hoping that the specific training you have would allow you to get one of these type of jobs.  For instance, I have an MSc. in Physics and my studies were in plasma physics (working on a Tokamak).  I did my MSc. while in the CF under a program not giving me a specific job in which to use this training at the end.  Even though I don't care about having a job in the CF where I use this degree, if I did I would have a very hard time finding one.  For my trade (ACSO) I might have a hope of getting one if I had done my studies in underwater acoustics (as an example).  Since the CF is unlikely () to begin a program requiring expertise in magnetically confined plasmas, I'm most likely SOL using my MSc.



Yes, but we still think highly of you, nonetheless  ;D

And if you were truly motivated, you would have built a Tokamak at work, using the leftover gyro parts!


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## prima6 (12 Mar 2011)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Yes, but we still think highly of you, nonetheless  ;D
> 
> And if you were truly motivated, you would have built a Tokamak at work, using the leftover gyro parts!



Very true.  Would it be against the fire orders to bring bottle of compressed hydrogen gas into the school?    There are a lot of gyro parts.


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## SeaKingTacco (12 Mar 2011)

Naw- what could go wrong?  It is not like you could create a singularity that would destroy life as we know it, right?

Right?


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## prima6 (12 Mar 2011)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Naw- what could go wrong?  It is not like you could create a singularity that would destroy life as we know it, right?
> 
> Right?



Theory says... probably not.


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## rnkelly (14 Mar 2011)

5 languages!  Cripes, not good for my inferiority complex.

I did my physics major at SFU and now I'm a Tac Hel Pilot myself, I don't use the degree at all on a day to day basis.  It may have helped a little through some of the flight training ground school as we and science/engineering types seemed more familiar/comfortable with some concepts but minimal.  

If you go Pilot, this degree along with math and engineering gives you the opportunity to be a test pilot and work for AETE(Test and Evaluation of Aircraft and equipment).  Also, these degrees can help you take full advantage of the ASC (Aerospace Systems Course) a ten month course given by the air force that awards a Masters of Aerospace Engineering degree through U of Manitoba.  These are the ways I see my degree giving me future education opportunities but way down the road.  My job right now as a new guy (first tour, I've been in for 5ish years already) is still to just learn and get better at my job (fly).  The CF offers many programs for its members to further their training/education, no matter their previous levels, and most aren't specific to trades, elements and specific previous education levels.

I applied for AERE as well and at the time the CF were only accepting Engineering degrees for this trade.  From my talking to AEREs at work though, it seems that the requirements change all the time.


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## prima6 (14 Mar 2011)

Just an FYI, ASC doesn't get you an MEng, it's an MPA (Master of Public Administration).


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## aesop081 (14 Mar 2011)

prima6 said:
			
		

> Just an FYI, ASC doesn't get you an MEng, it's an MPA (Master of Public Administration).



The last solitation message i saw for ASC (for ASC 64 IIRC) indicated that both were options. I actualy considered applying as they were seeking NCM nominations.


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## dimsum (14 Mar 2011)

I haven't seen the msg (on leave) but I'm interested, despite having a couple of steps to go before tackling ASC.  That being said, would the course itself be good enough for the MPA, or would there be extras involved?  

*On an unrelated note, anyone who has done ASC, I have some Qs that I'd like to PM*


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## aesop081 (14 Mar 2011)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> or would there be extras involved?



When i met with the CoC about going on the course, i was told there were extra courses to be taken outside of CFSAS to get the MPA.


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## prima6 (14 Mar 2011)

They've been trying to get the accreditation for an M.Eng., from what I understand.  I can walk upstairs tomorrow and ask.


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## rnkelly (15 Mar 2011)

There are certain extras but can be done concurrently within the 10 months, that's what they're advertising anyway.  Depends on your prior education of course.  From what I understand if you go in with no degree, you leave with Bach. in PA .  If you go in with a general Bach. you come out with a Masters in PA.  If you go in with a engineering degree you come out with a Masters of Aerospace Engineering.  All come with extras but can be done in 10 months apparently, not bad I'd say.  Assessed on a individual basis through U of M and the CF School of Aerospace Studies.  

Guy at work today who did it a while ago said it's worth 2 points on PER too, he did it sans degree (he entered through the CEOTP plan).  Best part is...he gets to wear a sweet patch now!


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## prima6 (15 Mar 2011)

I checked with the guys upstairs at CFSAS, and from what they're saying upstairs they are continuing to negotiate with U of M.  The setup they're exploring is that for the M.Eng. you'll have to do a few extra courses as well as a thesis.  Apparently some of the ASC project work would count toward the thesis, but the thesis will have to completed after ASC (i.e. by correspondence).


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## Scoobs (15 Mar 2011)

prima6 said:
			
		

> I checked with the guys upstairs at CFSAS, and from what they're saying upstairs they are continuing to negotiate with U of M.  The setup they're exploring is that for the M.Eng. you'll have to do a few extra courses as well as a thesis.  Apparently some of the ASC project work would count toward the thesis, but the thesis will have to completed after ASC (i.e. by correspondence).



This matches with what I know.  I'm an AERE and the ASC course gives you the same credit on merit boards as someone with a Masters.  Currently it does not matter what type of Masters you have, but thought has been given to changing this to only Masters that match with the types of degrees that are currently accepted to get into the CF as an AERE (or via ROTP).  However, as prima6 states, currently doing the ASC course as an AERE does not immediately give someone a Masters that is recognized outside of the CF.

On a side note, as an engineer, having project manager skills via ASC or experience generally leads to a higher salary when working on civy street.  The project managers usually make more money than the engineers that are actually doing the hard engineering.


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