# Recruiting Posters, Slogans and Commercials [Merged]



## bossi

The posters are great!
http://www.nationalpost.com/artslife/story.html?f=/stories/20010427/545505.html 


Hey, I said c‘mon! 

The Canadian Forces needs thousands of new recruits to survive. Too bad the great causes (and great posters) of the past seem to be gone forever

James Cudmore 
National Post 

Any day now, the Canadian Forces will unveil its latest recruiting campaign in a bid to flesh out the ranks in the face of skyrocketing attrition and plummeting morale.

The problem, apparently, is a diminished desire among Canada‘s spiky-haired youth to heed the call to service. Indeed, the Canadian Forces‘ insufficient ability to attract and retain new recruits has already begun to have an effect on operations.

In December, the perennially cash-strapped Canadian navy announced it was forced to take the proud ship HMCS Huron off sea duty due to a pressing lack of sailors to crew her.
At the time, Lieutenant-Commander Chris Henderson, a navy spokesman, said the move was the result of lacklustre recruiting efforts that have left the Pacific fleet with 267 fewer sailors than it requires.

"It‘s something we have to do," he said. "We don‘t have enough people to sail the other ships in our fleet and you end up moving people from ship to ship just to keep the fleet going."

The problem is not limited to the navy: Last year, the 2nd Battalion of the Princess Patricia‘s Canadian Light Infantry lost 90 of its 650 soldiers to attrition. Lieutenant-Colonel Marv Makulowich, commanding officer of the 2nd Battalion, said he is expecting that number to swell to as many as 200 soldiers in the coming year.

In an effort to stave off these defections, the Canadian Forces over the last two years has launched a series of initiatives designed to improve the quality of life for our overworked, underpaid troops and staunch the outward flow of its highly trained soldiers.

It‘s a far cry from the old days, when Canadians took the Queen‘s shilling without a second thought to quality of life -- choosing to serve the nation come what may.
During the Second World War, Canada had more than a million men under arms, and that number was even greater during the First. Today, we have fewer than 60,000.

Obviously, recruits are more likely to sign up when there‘s a well-defined bogeyman (Hitler, Communism) threatening us good guys. The trick is to attract recruits now, in 2001. And so it was with fanfare that the Canadian Forces announced a campaign this year to recruit as many as 7,000 soldiers, sailors and airmen -- a program the Forces admits is critical to its survival.

But in the age of sporting gear advertisements that shout "No fear" and "Just do it," it‘s hard to believe that such slogans as "Working together to build our team" or "Diversity: Your pride, your future, your move" will prove to be the rallying cry our youth will heed.

Gone, it seems, from the recruiting sergeant‘s vocabulary are the military action words that at turns enticed and shamed two generations of young men to risk their lives on the killing fields of Fortress Europe. Gone, too, are the striking images that fired a nation to rally ‘round its flag and offer her sons in its defence.

The historical Canadian recruiting posters shown here stand in stark contrast to the modern crop of recruitment ads. In a current poster (see the bottom right corner of the opposite page), two officers peer through binoculars from the bridge of their ship as an empty sea stretches out behind them. The poster claims there is "Adventure, challenge, career ... as an officer." Another officer is depicted climbing into the cockpit of his CF-18 Hornet jet fighter, as another peers squint-eyed through a sextant.

They are military images, as the streaking, artistically rendered war planes atop the poster attest, but they have nothing on the recruiting posters of wars gone by.

The most striking image on this page -- the one that most caught my eye -- is that of a Second World War soldier rearing on his motor bike as he races up a hill. He is headed, we know, into battle, racing two others on their mechanized steeds to be the first to the punch.
In shadowy background, this soldier‘s military forbearer struggles to control his own rearing mount -- a muscled white war horse -- helm upon his head, shield and lance under one arm, charging forward to join the battle. "Notre Armée: A besoin de bons Canadiens," the poster screams: "Our Army: In need of good Canadians."


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## Michael Dorosh

YAWWWWWWNNNNNNNNNNNN

must be a slow news day....


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## the patriot

A nice slogan would be "Crush, Kill, and Destroy to a Better and Sexier New You!!!"

-the patriot-


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## fortuncookie5084

Recruiting has always been tough.  The Canadian military has always had cash problems, and quality of life has always been an issue.  I don‘t think Canadian soldiers ever took the King‘s Shilling without a second though to quality of life.  While researching another topic I came across an article in the old Montreal Star, dated 1961.  The issue: Canadian reservists getting poorer trg, surplus WW2 uniforms, poor pay, and---get this---diminished prospects for advancement in the "more stable postwar" Canadian Army.  They were complaining during the days of fat cold war budgets.  It is not something new, apparently. The biggest problem is getting our purpose across to the public.  We need to counter the CBC-Macleans image of the Army.


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## fortuncookie5084

Oh, and my two cents on advertising the Army:  They have to make the Army look fun.  People join us generally for a few simple reasons.  1) Buddy joins so they join too.  Particularily common in times of crisis and war.  2) They want to serve country.  3) They want adventure and to have fun.  Alternative to an office job.  

THe latest CF commercials featuring tanks, soldiers running around, and a soldier jumping from a Herc are excellent.  Make it look fun and they will come.  I promise.


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## ender

I agree.  Army ads should show people doing Army stuff.


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## fortuncookie5084

After their first summer, most who join and stick with it say the Army reserves was MORE fun than they expected.  If it were not for word-of-mouth lay recruiters bragging about how fun it is, the Army would be in big trouble.


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## Soldier of Fortune

Also,
       Another thing iv‘e noticed is that in Army Cadets, almost everybody there that I nkow in my Corp is going to join once they are old enough, so Cadets is another way of recruiting people for the future. (thats why I joined Cadets)


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## bossi

(meanwhile, in Russia ...)

Attracting soldiers defeats Red Army 
Exemptions to the Russian draft have slashed the list of eligible conscripts, writes Craig Nelson in Moscow. 


As triumphant placards are hoisted throughout Moscow in preparation for celebrations this week marking the anniversary of the allied victory in Europe in World War II, the once-vaunted Red Army is clamouring for men to fill its ranks.

President Vladimir Putin and his Defence Minister, Mr Sergei Ivanov, have vowed to shrink the military and create an all-professional army. Still, the dreaded draft continues and military officials are complaining publicly for the first time that they do not have enough men.

"Today we cannot call up as many people as the armed forces need ... Soon there will be no-one we can call up," Mr Vladislav Putilin, the deputy army chief of staff, recently complained.

It is an almost unheard of sentiment in a country that lost an estimated 25 million people in World War II and rates its glorious military past and ferocious display of patriotism against Nazi invaders as its chief national virtues.

The manpower crunch comes as the Kremlin bludgeons ahead with its anti-separatist war in the southern republic of Chechnya and girds friendly governments in Central Asia against alleged threats from radical Islamic rebels.

In Tajikistan, Moscow is establishing a military base and stationing 12,000 Russian troops to patrol the border with Taliban-ruled Afghanistan, which it claims funds the insurgents.

The prospect of assignment to either perilous backwater preyed on the minds of 19-year-old Mr Valentin Ivanov and his family and friends as they gathered in a scruffy working-class district in south-eastern Moscow to bid him goodbye on a recent early Thursday morning. They suppressed their fears with revelry until the last of many parting toasts.

"To your health," they chanted, clinking their beer bottles in salute to the red-eyed Mr Ivanov. "To your return," they chanted and clinked again. Then a pause and a single utterance: "To your return alive."

Within minutes, a bus carrying Mr Ivanov and a mere four other conscripts pulled out of a driveway adjacent to a 500-seat football pitch and merged into the morning rush-hour traffic, bound for a central processing centre in central Moscow. During Soviet rule, up to 3,000 men from the same Lyublino district entered the armed forces each year.

All Russian men between 18 and 27 are eligible for the draft and are required to serve at least two years, but liberal student exemptions in response to widespread loathing of military service, along with claims of disabilities, have reduced the pool of eligible conscripts, who make up 70 per cent of Russia‘s 1.2 million-man armed forces. 

Mr Putin has ordered the call-up of 189,995 conscripts in this spring‘s draft, sharply down from the 350,00 to 400,000 of recent drafts. Military officials worry that even that goal will not be met.

The divide separating Mr Ivanov from the throngs of eligible draft-age men avoiding military service is not health or education. It is money.

Mr Ivanov‘s mother, Galina, applauded those parents who could bribe doctors or draft officials for exemptions, but she said her family lived on a combined pension of $173 a month and could not afford it for Valentin, the last of her four sons who has been drafted. 

Mrs Ivanov put the going rate for an exemption at $580. Ms Natalya Shvol, of the Committee of Soldiers‘ Mothers, says the cost runs as high as $9,600.

Bribery is common even after induction. Valya, a 41-year-old maid, said she turned over her savings of nearly $2,000 to a local draft official two years ago in exchange for the promise her son would be stationed in Moscow instead of Chechnya. The pledge was met.

For parents who can afford the pay-offs, avoiding military service is worth any price, for on a hierarchy of the downtrodden, no-one would have possibly greater claim to the top rung than the Russian conscript.

Equipment was pitiable and hunger routine, former soldier Mr Maxim Sakhalov said. And although it is regarded as an honoured tradition by many soldiers such as Mr Sakhalov, bastardisation is a "terrible scourge", said Ms Vorobyova Fyodorovna of the mothers‘ committee, citing the recent case of a conscript who twice required surgery following a beating by a junior officer. 

According to Ms Fyodorovna, the army‘s official report said the young man had fallen out of a second-floor window.

If any further discouragement to service in Chechnya were needed besides the estimated 3,000 troops who have been killed and 5,000 wounded there since war resumed in August 1999, it came in May, when the daily allowance for conscripts was reduced from $54 to less than $4 and reductions in their length of military service for fighting in the republic were eliminated.

Efforts by authorities to round up draft dodgers have come to little. Police and the military prosecutor‘s office in Moscow admit they are reluctant to bring cases to trial.


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## bossi

In terms of positive press coverage, and its value to recruiting, I thought this article was valuable - hope you agree:Highlanders‘ sense of duty is unreserved 
Ceremonies to mark 110 years of proud service 
Paul Irish
STAFF REPORTER 

PAUL IRISH/TORONTO STAR 
Three members of the 48th Highlanders Master Cpl. Sean Westrop, left, Highlander Ashley Doyle and Master Cpl. Peter Stibbard. 
They‘ve been serving our country with pride through three centuries.

From the Boer War in South Africa to peacekeeping duties in Yugoslavia, the 48th Highlanders have participated in every Canadian military campaign with exception of the Gulf War.

And tomorrow, in recognition of the reserve unit‘s 110th anniversary, 400 current and former members will celebrate with full Scottish Highland pageantry, including the skirl of bagpipes.

``It should be a wonderful day,‘‘ said Capt. Steve Tibbetts, of the Highlanders. ``The unit has a definite spot in Toronto and Canadian history.‘‘


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
`The unit has a spot in Toronto and Canadian history‘
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The public will be treated to a short parade that starts at 10 a.m. at the Moss Park Armoury and proceeds west along Queen St. to Nathan Phillips Square where, at 11 a.m., the unit will be given the freedom of the city by Councillor Chris Korwin-Kuczynski and other dignitaries.

At noon, the parade will return to the armoury along the same route. Members of the regiment past and present and friends will gather for a reception at the St. Andrew‘s Presbyterian Church, where they will meet a delegation from Apeldoorn, Holland.

``The Highlanders helped liberate the town in the Second World War,‘‘ said Tibbetts. 

``It‘s a very significant point in the regiment‘s history.‘‘

Capt. John Hill, 33, a Toronto businessman, said he‘s proud to be a Highlander and he‘s looking forward to the celebration.

``We‘re part of the past, the present and we‘ll be busy in the future,‘‘ he said. ``We‘re an important fixture in the city.‘‘

Master Cpl. Sean Westrop said the regiment has proven itself in battle as well as peacetime. 

The Highlanders‘ men and women were happy to help dig the city out of the snow three winters ago, he said.

Master Cpl. Peter Stibbard said there aren‘t many jobs that allow you to rappel out of helicopters, so the Highlanders is the ``right spot‘‘ to be.

Highlander Ashley Doyle said the regiment will travel anywhere in Canada where it‘s needed and said he‘s proud the unit was able to help during the Manitoba floods a few years back.

Formed in Toronto in 1891, the regiment adopted the Davidson tartan and the falcon head as its crest.

The first action for the 48th Highlanders, whose home station is at Moss Park, took place in South Africa during the Boer War when the regiment sent more than 116 soldiers to augment the Royal Canadian Regiment in 1899.

They were mobilized again for World War I, and departed for England in September, 1914, as the 15th Battalion of the Canadian Expeditionary Force. During the war, the regiment was involved in every major action including Ypres, the Somme, Vimy and Passchendaele, but paid heavily with the death of 1,473 men.

During World War II, the regiment was mobilized again and sent to England as part of the first contingent that left Canada in 1939. It later won battle honours in Italy and liberated Apeldoorn in its last action of the war.

The Highlanders were on active duty in Korea and also served on peacekeeping missions in Cyprus, the Middle East, Somalia and the former Yugoslavia.

Closer to home, the regiment is known for its pipe and drum marching band, which has played all over Canada and in international competitions. 

The band is a regular feature of Toronto‘s annual Santa Claus parade and for years christened every hockey season by marching out on the ice at Maple Leaf Gardens, a tradition that has continued at the Air Canada Centre.

``Everyone knows about the band. They‘re great,‘‘ said Hill. ``And they‘ll be at it again tomorrow.‘‘


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## echo

my friend brought the article to me today an said "are these the kilt-landers ur always talkin about?"
after i smacked him for saying "kilt-landers"
i convinced him that the army isnt all that bad.
that article‘s deffinately going up on my locker wall.


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## John Nayduk

It‘s hard to recruit people and keep them in times of a strong economy.  Couple that with the indifference shown the military by the government and the constant negative reports/lack of possitive stories  in the press and it makes a very hard sell to the youth  of today.  How long is the press going to remind us about Somolia while forgetting the rescue by us and the Brits of the people at the Drin Hospital in B-H (or the other thousands of examples of a job well done at home and abroad).  The press certianly influances public opinion. Maybe it‘s a Canadian thing that we seem to down play our accomplishments and exagrate our failings.


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## bossi

Excellent points, A.R.G.!!!
I‘ve said several times that recruits are being driven away by the "self-fulfilling prophecy" of the "brass" (i.e. harping continually about how Neanderthal behaviour is unacceptable ... duh ... or how the CF has no future inasmuch as the budget is shrinking while costs continue to increase).

On this topic, I came across a quote I liked:

"When a military spirit forsakes a people, the profession of arms immediately ceases to be held in honour, and military men fall to the lowest rank of public servants; they are little esteemed and no longer understood. ... Hence arises a circle of cause and consequence from which it is difficult to escape:  the best part of the nation shuns the military profession because the profession is not honoured, and the profession is not honoured because the best part of the nation has ceased to folow it."
Alexis de Tocqueville


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## Fishbone Jones

Just a couple of quotes that I thought might fit here somewhere;

He will win who has the military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign.  -Sun Tzu-

Well it‘s Tommy this, and Tommy that,
And chuck ‘im out the brute,
But it‘s saviour of the country,
When the guns begin to shoot.
-Kipling-

Happy Victoria day all!


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## John Nayduk

I guess that we need another boogyman.  I think, though, that the "grass roots" in Canada apreciates the military and what we do.  

Recceguy: You must know every peom that mentions the "Brute".


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## Cog

Just my 2 cents:

I think that the biggest resource for recruiters is the University/College populace. I know for a fact that these places are full of people looking for purpose, challenge, danger- anything they are lacking after 12 or more years of school. I myself am one. I don‘t think that recruiting in the highschool crowd is as effective as it used to be, because secondary-education is much more reachable that it once was. Most highschool kids see the military as limiting their options, in a world that offers endless possiblities. The military has to change with the times and shift it‘s focus. I‘ve yet to see any active recruitment at the university I attend, despite having been there for 10 months. I public recruiting booth, or a presentation in the caffeteria (done on a regular basis by other groups) would go a long a ways, especially if the recruiters read what is below... 

Here‘s what I have to say. As a university student considering joining, I‘m right smack in the middle of the recruiting propaganda. Which is to say I‘m right smack in the middle of nothing.

From the perspective of the university student, the biggest thing holding me back is a complete lack of pertinent information regarding the future. University students are concerned about their futures, and how joining the military will affect their futures. How does military service on my resume affect potential employers? Why aren‘t there more success stories about how the CF helped Joe and Jane get a great job by giving them leadership, confidence, teamwork, etc. Why isn‘t the industry actively seeking people with military experience, even though the coporate world is turning more and more to ‘boot camp‘ style training to teach their employees teamwork and leadership? In a world starved for people with degrees, offering them secure and comfortable future, the military if falling behind. Answers to these types of questions would mean a lot to today‘s career-oriented students.

If university students were confident that joining the military would be beneficial to their careers and teach them valuable skills for the future, the military would have no trouble swelling it‘s ranks. My university is full of people desperately seeking out the military experience. There are any number of clubs revolving around pseudo-militarism. The Airsoft club is probably the most realistic. But you can‘t walk down a hallway without seeing a poster offering "Rapid Assault Tatics" training or "Weekend Warrior" trips. University students hunger for release, adventure, danger... but they also want security for their futures, and will avidly avoid anything they think may harm their future. This includes everything that doesn‘t make it blatantly obvious that it is a good choice for the future. The military should make information and real-life examples more visible.

There is also a distinct lack of another type of information. The nitty-gritty stuff that you have to actively seek out a recruiter for, and in my opinion, shouldn‘t have to. How long do you have to sign on for? What kind of obligority service? Can I be sent to war? Will I be sent accross the country without any say? What happens if I‘m hurt during training? Can I get out if I need to? How do I get promoted? How dangerous is it? What kind of law does the military subject me to? How will it affect my family life? What happens if I get pregnent? What kind of benifits and insurance? Do I have to pay for any equipment? What if I loose stuff? How much information does the military collect about me? Who has access to it? What happens when I quit? Will the government still call me up to go to war? Do the different branches have different answers to these questions? 

If some of this info was made up front and easy to access, students would be alot more comfortable about seeing a recruiter. We are older than the Highschool crowd, and thus not so willing to jump in without knowing what we‘re getting into. I myself have been actively searching for answers to questions like these for months, and having to read all manner of things like the QR&O and CFAO to find answers. Having to do this is not what I call easy to access information. There are probably enlisted people who haven‘t read through those things. Most students won‘t waste their time. Hey, if they don‘t want to say it out loud, it can‘t be good. And that‘s the end of it. The military has to be more open and active about their recruiting if they want more people.

The next problem is image, especially among middle and upper classes where the bulk of university students come from. The general view is that the military is out dated, and full of social deviants, people who can‘t think for them selves, and a bunch of hardcore gun nuts. As much as I hate to say it, the Americans have the image thing down pat. If the CF wants to learn a little about recruiting, they could do worse than look at a nation whose standing army is larger than the population of some countries. Although, even the Yanks are starting to have recruiting problems. But the fact it, the CF‘s image has to change.

If you want to know what draws the people I‘ve talked to, the military image that they like, it‘s the image of themselves in fatigues and combat boots, holding a rifle. Wearing the beret, rappeling out of helo‘s, throwing Ka-Bars and handgrenades, and generally blowing **** up. Not really what it‘s all about, but then again, who has more fans: Hollywood or the CF? If the CF needs people so bad, they should play to them. Show people themselves as they could be in the military, a Rambo in each and every person. Make people think they can be bad-*** , show ‘em what they want to see and you‘ll bring a few in. People like to think of themselves as adventerous, daring, and courageous. Especially us middle-class suburbanites who were raised on a steady diet of Hollywood heroism. If the CF capitalized a little on these self images, they might generate a little more interest, and in doing so, help their image.

And lastly, a personal concern as well as one voiced by many others, is the quality of training. The military (the politicians?) have got to respect the fact that, even if there is no war right now, the men and women that sign on, do so knowing that their signature may well put them into combat. And people die in combat. I‘m growing concerned about whether or not the military is going to provide the training I need to survive & thrive in combat, or whether it is just going to give me an illusion of soldier skill that will get me killed. I felt sick when I read about this 16 day basic.  What can you learn in 16 days !? I thought basic was a couple of months, and a grueling, intensive crashcourse in combat survival, not a few days of Boyscouts. And since I‘m looking at infantry, which puts my ***  in the grass, it concerns me even more. And then I read about old/obselete equipment, too few feild exercises, little or no live firing, etc. etc. etc. And it all makes me wonder what I want to sign on for. I‘ve no qualms about going into combat, so long as I know I‘ve had the proper training. I have a big problem going into combat wondering if I‘ve had the proper training. 

But this, I think, is more a Government problem than a military one. The Government seems to have forgotten that the military is central to it‘s existence, and that the military is the protector of the people from which the Gov. draws it‘s power. The military could use more funding, but only if the military is ready to put those funds to good use. The Americans have shown that throwing more money at the military won‘t neccessarily fix the problems. But better pay and allowances, comparable to civilian jobs, would go a long a way towards bolstering the ranks. Throw in meaningful and realistic training, and perhaps a few toys to play with, and you‘ve got a bigger, happier, more robust CF.

I could go on and on, but it‘s late. Feel free to post your opinions on what I‘ve said. Note that everything I‘ve said is personal opinion based of months of more or less fruitless research into what the CF is all about, and what happens to me when I sign the dotted line. So, none of it is hard and true fact, and most of it is pure conjecture. I welcome any and all comments.

Hope you enjoyed the read,

Cog.


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## the patriot

I find that it doesn‘t matter what major profession it is these days.... Alot of current teachers, doctors, and nurses when asked by the wide-eyed youth of today of a future in their respectable professions......... they say "DON‘T EVER DO IT!!! THE GOVERNMENT IS *&%#@!"  So I guess the military is going through the same thing.  What do we do?  Tell all the baby-boomers to shut up?!  Actually that might help....  With that new tuition coverage for university students, I guess that may help get numbers go back up for all the units concerned.  For those that are not aware, very recently a new plan was put out for reservists regardless of rank.  How this works is that as long as you are a trained troop, you will be able to have the Army pay half of your university tuition.  I find that this will help greatly in attracting more youth to the military and also act as a retaining tool to stem the exodus of soldiers to the private sector.

-the patriot-


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## spacemarine

"I thought basic was a couple of months, and a grueling, intensive crashcourse in combat survival"

Basic is where you learn the "basics" common to the army, navy, airforce.  You‘re not taught any tactics or survival stuff, that‘s all taught in your trades training.  At basic you learn drill, ranks, basic weapons handling (c7, c9), etc.  

As for it being grueling, hardly any western militaries still have hard basic training (with the exception of p-company for the Paras or the FFL basic/battleschool).  If they did they‘d weed out many people, which isn‘t good when you can‘t even recruit enough people to fill the ranks in the first place (not saying I support this lax attitude though).


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## Infanteer

Spacemarine,
What your saying appears to be right on the surface.  But your missing something.
Basic training, especially for the army, is not only about basic military skills.  It is about tearing down a life of soft civilian habits and rebuilding the recruit as a disciplined member of a team that is able to kill another human being.
Especially in these Gen-X days, the recruits initial training is essential to eradicate the selfish I-me-my additude that makes many recruits whine when faced with long marches, PT, and sleep-deprivation and hunger.  These are common for the soldier in the battlefield.
What basic training should seek to put out is not people who can handle basic military skills, but disciplined soldiers who can be expected to get the job done regardless of what is thrown at them.
With an 18 day basic training, I am not sure that this is what is being put out.  I am not sure that todays soldier can face a battlefield, if they only have to wear webbing on a march, and if they can‘t complete that march, but pass anyway.  I am not sure if I want to share a foxhole with someone who is bothered when they are called a ****bag, or feels harrassed when they are forced to do basic calisthenics.
There is alot of good soldiers today who are personally motivated and can see through the bull**** and soldier on.  But I think the decline in Basic training standards is letting alot of recruits who could be good soldiers get by being sub-par soldiers, and alot of ****bags be soldiers who shouldn‘t be at all.
It‘ll probably come to the point where that new Military Cemetary is filled up with Canadian youth before Ottawa figures out that weak Basic Training is NOT good for the recruits, the army, or the nation.
<end rant>


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## Infanteer

And as for Western militaries not having gruelling basic training.
I think Cree Warrior has the authority to talk about that (Three Suicides?).
The U.S. Marine Corps is very effective in holding off the PC police.  But I think even their standards have fallen in the last few years.  (If any Jarheads feel I am wrong, correct me.)


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## spacemarine

Agree w/ everything you said Infanteer.  What‘s that about 3 suicides?


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## Infanteer

Ask Cree Warrior.


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## bossi

Here‘s a comment from a former RSM:

We have now learned that the DND is going to spend 15 million dollars in their new recruiting campaign to attract recruits into the service. The recruiting material is of the benign type that I previously  mentioned. "No violence please we are Canadians soldiers".

Canadian Forces invest $15.2M to fill out ranks
http://www.nationalpost.com/search/story.html?f=/stories/20010629/605334.html


The posters are soo politically correct (25% ethnic, 25% female} The ads depict all the gee whiz stuff you can do in the service. A small piece in the corner actually shows a weapon.. According to the article this campaign was run by a focus group (II think that is the correct spelling.. This ‘focus‘ group agreed that the programme would work and we will get an increase in enlistments. (?) 

After the announcement other groups expressed some disagreement and thought it would not work and was a waste of money. Time will tell. You can review their comments at;  

Ads likely to fail: military analyst
http://www.nationalpost.com/search/story.html?f=/stories/20010630/606940.html


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## bossi

I thought this Halifax Herald editorial was ... interesting:

Monday, July 2, 2001 - The Halifax Herald Limited 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A word or two



We told you so 

Years ago, when military downsizing, funding cuts and morale problems all began to hit home, concerns were expressed about recruitment and retention of military personel. 

Last week, it was reported that Canada‘s Armed Forces intend to increase their mandatory retirement age from 55 to 60 years of age. 

Why? Because there has been such a poor response to recruiting efforts, and so many jobs already eliminated, and so many people have opted to leave on their own, that there are no longer enough people to staff the Forces. 

Ottawa intentionally trimmed the Forces, at an all-time high of about 100,000 Canadians in the 1960s, down to about 58,000 as part of the budget cuts that began in the early- to mid-1990s. 

Now, Canada finds itself without enough Canadians who believe there‘s no life like it, and choose to exist in some other type of life. 

Meanwhile, the peacekeeping commitments have drained resources and forced the Department of National Defence to increasingly lean on members of reserve units, with less detailed training, to accept international assignments. 

So the retirement age will be moved upward, in the hopes of keeping, for a few years longer, the well-trained sailors, soldiers and flyers we already have. 

We told you so.


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## Andrew Brunton

I think recruiting campaigns which try and gloss over the reality of an infantrymen‘s job
can only lead to recruits unwilling to do their real job. The role of infantry is to close with
and destroy the enemy. Not to have fun and exciting job oppurtunities in the Canadian
Forces as a recent advertisment on TV stated. I plan to join the CF as an infantrymen
and I know the reality of the situation. In combat you will be called upon to fight, and 
very possibly be killed. If this reality isn‘t mentioned at all in recruiting, and no mention is
given to personal sacrifice and immense personal and phsycial challenge the wrong people
will join. I‘m prepared to live in horrible conditions on little sleep for weeks in real field
operations. But is everyone else planning on joining prepared for that? If basic becomes
weaker and training overall becomes more lax our forces will lose any resemblance of a 
fighting edge. As a small military force we should be making up for our smaller numbers
by putting out better soldiers from our training programs. A smaller number of dedicated and focused soldiers can equal the effeciency of a larger number of soft and unenchanted
soldiers. I hope the standards remain high, and the recruitment campaigns remain true
to reality so when I join I‘ll be bombarded with intense training, but have fellow trainees
who I can rely on. To that goal training can turn out newer soldiers more experienced
ones can count on to carry their load and perform their role in operations


----------



## donkreel

I haven‘t seen any of the new ads on TV yet...has anyone seen one of them yet?  Wondering if they‘ll be effective...


----------



## Soldier of Fortune

Neither have I, what channels do you think they would be most effective on, I thind CBC and Much Music.


----------



## Brad Sallows

I wonder how the focus groups work.

Do they gather together a sample of people and ask them for impressions?  Do they screen out people who would have to be dragged kicking and screaming to a CFRC to be conscripted?  Do they gather a sample of fairly new soldiers to determine what might have appealed to them to help them decide to join?

In short, did we ask the right people what they thought?


----------



## bossi

Excellent point, Brad - the focus groups are somewhat similar to computers (i.e. garbage in, garbage out).

A while back, the marketing braintrust was convinced (duped?) into believing the public thought of the CF as "Proud, Proven, Professional" - however, in the same vein as a consultant tells you the time using your own watch, it should have been noted the focus groups included CF members who wanted to be thought of as professional (and thus, the result was skewed).

Over and over again, I keep looking at the American example (since they are our closest ally) - the US Army has been having problems meeting their recruiting quota for about four years - on the other hand, the US Marines have met their recruiting quota for the past 54 months!  Hmmm ... didn‘t some rocket scientist marketing genius come up with "An Army Of One", while the Marines have stuck to the tried and true "The Few, The Proud, The Marines"????

Ya know, getting back to basics is not necessarily a bad thing (contrary to what the consultants and voodoo marketing witch doctors would have us believe).

If we‘re trying to recruit soldiers, then our advertising should attract soldiers.  Ditto for sailors and airmen.  However, if we‘re trying to attract employees, then our recruiting will have a different flavour (and we shouldn‘t be so surprised when our recruits behave more like employees than soldiers).

Here‘s a few favourites for comparison:

Join the Army.  Stand On Guard for Canada.
It‘s not a job, it‘s an adventure.
Nobody wants to fight, but somebody has to know how.
We do more before breakfast than most people do all week.
Twice the Citizen - Join the Reserves.

Dileas Gu Brath,
M.B.


----------



## Cbt Engr

The television and prints ads aren‘t supposed to start until the fall according to DNet. For now, the splashy ads remain as the cartoons before the feature presentation.


----------



## RCA

I don‘t care what anybody says, but the best recruiting tool is still word of mouth. You know what you do and what the "hooks" are. However everyone‘s moral has been so low it has been hard to be positive. So start talking it up again and the flow should slowly start again. (and we would save $15 million, money better spent on 105mm HOW ammo.)


----------



## Se7eN

This reply is not really about the ad‘s but about the recruting site. It‘s super flashy and it makes you think we have the best funded military in the world. There are a couple things I noticed. In the NEWS section (check it out and see) they have a picture of Col. Kenward leading a parade of the Canadian Airborne Regiment. Now this to me seems like a huge misrepresentation, maybe Im wrong but, why are they using flashy pictures of a disbanded regiment to entice new recruits??, If that isnt false advertising I dont know what is.


Just a thought


----------



## Cbt Engr

NDHQ lying? Ad agencies lying? Preposterous. 

*please note the sarcasm now dripping onto the floor*


----------



## Se7eN

Why don‘t people call them on it or go to the media?, what would the government do??


----------



## echo

when i went to see a movie tonight,
during the previews an ad‘s  i saw the new recruiting ad for the army, navy and air force.
that ad was visually astounding because of all the things you hear about the cdn army/navy/airforce this showed every single one of the great things about the millitary.
(at the end of the ad it showed the new recruiting sologan. "Strong! Proud!")

the group of friends i was with were extremely impressed and were commenting on how they were gonna join the reserves in a coupla years.


----------



## Soldier of Fortune

Its good to know the ads are attracting young people.


----------



## colgan

> Originally posted by echo:
> [qb]when i went to see a movie tonight,
> during the previews an ad‘s  i saw the new recruiting ad for the army, navy and air force.
> that ad was visually astounding because of all the things you hear about the cdn army/navy/airforce this showed every single one of the great things about the millitary.
> (at the end of the ad it showed the new recruiting sologan. "Strong! Proud!")
> 
> the group of friends i was with were extremely impressed and were commenting on how they were gonna join the reserves in a coupla years.[/qb]


----------



## colgan

the army needs to spend less on ads and more on good training and kit


----------



## towhey

Saw one of the ads at the movie theatre last night.

Although it was out of focus (IS there such a thing as a projectionist anymore???? -- and I know, they up-res the ads to 35mm, but it was more than that, I‘m in the biz and know!), the ad was outstanding.

Kudos to the agency that created it.  My wife was ready to enlist right then and there.  Sensitive to some of the comments I‘ve heard from others, I specifically looked for kit and equipment.  I saw none that is not in use today.

It was a great mix of Army, Navy and Air Force hi-speed, cool-factor gear and worked across all three elements.  There were reserve Army capbadges and headress in evidence throughout.  The music was well done, and the editing was stirring.  Even the tag line works:  Strong.  Proud.

Well done, DND.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Technically, I suppose there are reservists who have seen/used the equipment portrayed.

I wonder how to deal with the retention issue once recruits learn the difference between the vision and the reality of a typical training weekend or one-week concentration.


----------



## towhey

The ad I saw was not targeting reserve recruits.  It was a generic CF ad.

Given the regular force‘s near disastrous staffing situation at the moment, I‘d bet my breakfast that the focus is on recruiting regulars.  Maybe even enticing some dissatisfied reservists to join the dark side?

Cheers,

mark


----------



## Brad Sallows

I can‘t remember if the ones I saw were all reserve-specific.  Nevertheless, I must admit that if we entice soldiers in right now who subsequently become disillusioned with the reality of reserve service, I would be satisfied to see them continue on to regular service.  As long as the Reg F needs people it must turn to the Res F to make up shortfalls, so the sooner the Reg F is "healthier", the sooner the Res F can concentrate on building up complementary capabilities and leadership depth.


----------



## Alex252

I was watching TV today. I saw this commercial and it was about veterans. It said this man was a brother, friend, husband etc. They were all soldiers of the Second World War. At first I thought this was going to be for rememberance day. Then all I see is were all connected, Get your Bell Subscription. This is pretty sad. We have rip off amazing efforts from soldiers and then use it to market a product? What do you guys think?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

I don't know, I still get a tear when I see the Dieppe commercial. I think when its done in good taste ,like the Bell commercials, then its allright.  Besides its better than the alternative,...... ignorance.

EDIT: can't believe I forgot this...an example of what I mean is my 11 year old asked me why I love that commercial so much and she listened in awe when I told her about the story.[ she couldn't believe they would keep trying to get up those cliffs in the background]


----------



## SHELLDRAKE!!

Last year I was in Afghanistan and saw this video for the first time.I think its great and hope that when they play it on t.v on 11/11 it makes alot of people stop and think.

http://www.terry-kelly.com/pittance.htm#


----------



## Alex252

*Besides its better than the alternative,...... ignorance.* 
Good Point


----------



## JBP

I will say also that Bell did have taste and did it very respectfully when they made the Dieppe commercial, but still, I don't enjoy the fact it had to be done by a corporation for advertising. You can't ignore the fact it IS advertising. Regardless, I think the GOVERNMENT should take the blame on that one. It should be doing that already... They do a large part on the world wars in gr. 10 history class which I scored very high marks in, but still. People do need reminding every now and then!

Joe


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Why shouldn't the corporations do their part, they also enjoy the freedom that was won by those brave people.


----------



## JBP

Bruce,

Very good point indeed. I agree you are right in that. I suppose I hadn't thought of that at all whatsoever! Like they say right, hindsight is always 20/20 (in my case, blind!)


Joe


----------



## bossi

I'd say "bravo" to any organisation that takes the time, effort and money to salute our veterans - they're being good "corporate citizens".  Furthermore, I'd say the Bell commercials are an excellent example of what can be achieved when you combine professional expertise with heartfelt pride.

A while back, there was a hardware store commercial explaining that they'd helped refurbish the Royal Newfoundland Regiment memorial - how on Earth can we turn around and complain when a corporate citizen steps up to the plate and does "the right thing" (especially when you realise the former Heritage Minister used her post to feather her own nest, by moving HMCS Haida to her own riding ...).

For God's sake - don't bite the hand that's patting our veterans on the back!


----------



## rw4th

I saw the Dieppe commercial at the movie theatre the other day. It's very well done and did bring a tear to my eye, until I say the end that is. Then I just got angry.

While I agree that ignorance is not the best option, I though the ad was a shameful plug by Bell. They could have just ended the commercial by saying â Å“brought to you by Bellâ ? (i.e taking credit for it) without turning it into a direct plug for their products.

That would of, in my opinion, been classier while still being an advertisement.


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt

I like it.

Anything to get the general public to understand the worth of the CF is excellent.



Matthew.


----------



## BDTyre

Just a side note, Bell provides funding for the series "For King & Country" (running this week on History channel).


----------



## Fishbone Jones

If a plug for their product is the price to pay for them doing what our own gov't won't, I can live with it.


----------



## Tpr.Orange

i find the dieppe commercial very moving, and i dont fault them for it because there attempt to promote themselves isn't as important as the message they showed.


----------



## Northern Touch

I thought the Bell commercial was done with good taste and class.  If they can pay for the commercial and take the time to remember those who fought and died in a tasteful manner then why not?


----------



## Michael Dorosh

I've yet to see the Bell Dieppe commercial - is it online anywhere?


----------



## rw4th

The add is manipulative and uses the memory of those who made the ultimate sacrifice to sell f*****g cell phones. Why not just put â Å“Bell Mobilityâ ? banner adds up at Remembrance Day ceremonies.  

Anyway, this one is emotional to me, so I'll end my rant here.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Go to your local cenotaph, look at the wreaths and check out the names on them. I'll bet 3/4 are from businesses .....so whats the difference? I think the sales pitch in that commercial is just about non-existant and I, for one, am glad they made it the way they did. 
PS: so next year buy a wreath from the legion and just leave it blank...that'll show them.


----------



## canuck#1

I would like to see Canada as a larger military power. I think of the numder of troops we have, to me its sad. I think it would be better to have a bigger military and to have the choice of going overseas and not base it on the number of troops we have. If Canada did join the coaltion in iraq we would not have had the numbers to make even a dent. I would like to see Canada have a bigger military and I don't think it would be that hard as I'm in high school (16) and I know of alot of people in the high schools that would join the Canadian forces. The only problem I see is there is too littles information about the Canadian armed forces and the advertising out there is not that good. If you put more postsers up in the high school and college's, and maybe more advertising on tv where kids my age would see them (like during programming aimed at teenagers) I bet enlistment would   at least double. So far in my 2 going on 3 years in high school once a year a rep from the RMC would come and it was even hard to find out when and where he would be. I got more of my friends 2 join up in the last 4 mouths than the RMC and the 1 postser they had hung up at my school did in the last 2 to 3 years (probably).
To my amazement I got 13 people to try out for basic and about 15 others thinking very hard about it. 

In my opinon, it's sad that most of us out there can do better for the armed forces then our own goverment thanks for listing my two cents and i would like to hear about your opinon


----------



## MikeM

Good on ya for getting people interesting, but hit the spell check before posting bud.


----------



## GDawg

Well, I wish our problem were as simple as "advertising". To me the problem is a cultural one. As far as advertising goes, I think the most effective thing would be to get the soldiers into elementary and junior highs, not to recruit, but to explain what a soldier does, and how it helps all of us. 

I hate to say it, but from my observations, 85% of high  school kids don't give a damn about the world, Canada, or her army. As a recruiter, I have visited dozens of high schools multiple times this year, and very few kids come up and talk to me, and some of those come up merely to say asinine things to "impress" their buddies, some think I am a US Marine, and one wanted to fight me to settle a bet with his pals. 

The biggest problem of living in a democracy where the public perceives they are under no external threat, or that we will never, ever be in danger is that few think twice about national security. The public has been lulled into a sense of false security, and a feeling  of self satisfaction with our involvement in humanitarian and stabilisation missions abroad.

I think its fair to say that Canada's safety does not come without a price, and those in charge of the PR and advertising purse-strings are mortified of the idea of telling the public that.

I applaud those who get out and try and find out whats going on, and even go as far as to form an opinion, those folks seem to side with the guys in green.

/end rant


----------



## Gayson

The CF needs to advertise on TV more.  Also the ads need to get better.  There was an RM television ad posted here some months ago.  That ad was the best ad for any military I had ever seen.  The CF should look at its allies recruiting techniques for ways to get more people.


----------



## johnny_boy

They should make "Canada's Army" for the computer 


I used to see recruiting ads before movies all the time, they were decent ads - not too corny. What ever happened to those and does anyone know if there is any talk of doing new ones?


----------



## GDawg

The TV ads and the ones played before movies suck.

They are too fast, and have no substance.

I would like to see ads that appeal to ones heart. The USAF had some great TV ads a while back when they came out with their new logo, their aim was to link the past and present to the future. Some of the ads the Americans put out are great, though the ANG and Reserve ads tend to be corny.
It seems Canadian recruitment is aimed at appealing to ones wallet, and frankly, thats retarded. If you wanna get rich, you don't join the CF.

 My advice to ADM (PA) and CF recruiting, is to aim a bit higher, from wallet to heart.


----------



## Zirus

I think the Americans do a good Job on there commercials!



One that hit me so hard

was a joint commercial ford/Army


i don't remember how it goes but i do recall it being 7 to 10 minutes long!!!! (i thought it was a show until it ended)


if anybody has seen it or knows where i could see it again 

please tell me!

Zirus out!


----------



## Lost_Warrior

You guys have to remember.  The US government and it's people CARE about their military.

Canadians, and our Liberal government could really care less about the men and wormen in uniform, so little resources are put into recruiting videos.

Don't expect multi-million dollar commercials, with cool CGI and good actors...


----------



## SHARP WO

I think as soldiers we are are own best advertisers, at least on a small scale. 

I remeber being at college in 98 taking journalsim and communications media and had to put ideas forward for a few stories/ news items. Since I went to the Ice Storm, I thought wow, why not interview a few students from the college who had went to the Ice Storm and get thier impression and views of what they did. My teachers said that it wasn't news worthy, that it would look like I was recruiting for the Army. 5 days later a few interviews showed up on TV, I guess they were wrong. 

SHARP WO


----------



## .68

Yeah I think some more ads would be a good venture for strengthening our military forces, but consider this with a budges so tight as it is money could be spent in more needed areas, like increased salary's and equipment.  Hey at least they arn't as bad as the training videos(First Aid, etc.) that I seen in BMQ were quite out of date, like made in early 80s

Out


----------



## Gayson

The best video done by the DND I have ever seen is that old Combat fatigue movie.

There is a brit recce movie used that comes 2nd _"You will perform your recce here, here, here, here, here and here"_


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Why advertise? We can't process the people that want to join now. The last thing we need is more people hanging about for a couple of years waiting on a uniform or trade.


----------



## Love793

The problem with our advertising lies at the parliamentary level.  The recent sponsorship fiasco was proof of it.   During the hole fiasco, an advertisement moratorium was put out.  This stopped ALL FEDERAL GOVT ads.  DGPA has a site for advertisements that all recruiters know and order advertising from.  Unfortunately the monies are not avail for mass ads the newspaper, radio and such.  These ads aren't bad by any description, it's just costly.  In 31 CBG a large unit receives around $1250/yr for ads.  The cost to run a ad in the Windsor Star, $1400 for one 1/4 page ad.

  The other problem is caused by our Govt (DND included) refusing to associate our jobs; Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen (Air persons for the PC types) as Warriors.  Unfortunately the left winged media here is just as guilty.  I don't know how many times I've seen pictures or stories on the news saying "... at CFB Bloggins, Canadian Peacekeepers are exercising in a large... "
Very rarely do I see "Today in Kabul, Canadian Soldiers..."  Unless of course a blackmark occurred.

The Americans or the Brits on the other hand, do not hesitate to call a spade a spade.  It's not," American Peacekeepers in Iraq...", but "US Marines/Army (Choose your preference) today..."

I have shared the same experiences as other recruiters at schools, and I finds most people are receptive (except the Left winged Guidance Departments at certain schools), just uneducated to our purpose.


----------



## Griswald DME

I believe the public needs to be educated about the military family lifestyle.   Here is my example.

When my wife was growing up in Ontario the image she had of the "boys in Borden" was not good at all, basically she was told to stay the heck away from   military men.   This was a general impression received by comments here and there from friends, family, whomever.   And when a soldier did something stupid, they assumed "they were all like that". 

When we started dating she didn't even know I was in the Reserves.   I didn't hide it from her, but my main job was something unrelated, and so thats what she knew I did for a living.   Further into our relationship she found out and was horrified.   She now had to deal with knowing I was a fairly average guy and in the military.   She had to deal with the skeletons in her closet you might say.

Needless to say, now she has actually knowledge that military families are just like any other family, mostly nice people but some jerks just like in the general population, the wrong images she had are long gone.

The reason I blab on about this is because I feel by far a large percentage of the Canadian population tend to harbour incorrect thoughts about the military, and the military needs to be more proactive in correcting this.   After all, if a potential soldiers wife (or girlfriend, sometimes parents) does not know enough about the military, they may automatically dismiss the idea and the CF may have lost a good employee.


----------



## Bomber

Back in 2000, the Brits did a series of ads showing their soldiers serving in Bosnia and Kosovo.  It showed an infantry officer, a medic corporal, and a transport sgt.  These ads were run at the beginning of most movies around that time and were really powerful in their delivery of the message.  There was a 45 second intro, where you were introduced to the individual and their job was laid out, then it followed them on a day that started out typically.  Then something happened, The Sgt encountered a mine on a proven road (a loaded troop transport truck hit one), the Capt had a section come under fire from a hidden enemy in a cleared building, and the medic had to deal with a guy shot in the neck by a sniper.Just as the stuff hit the fan for these people, a multiple choice question popped up and the scene was frozen for 5 seconds.  Just long enough to be read.  Then it would change to a Coke commercial, and when the DoD commercial came back, it ran the audience through the 4 or 5 possibilities presented, choices that the audience would have made were explored, these resolutions only lasted 10-15 seconds, but they were graphic and brutal.  It was filmed like any normal documentary that you would expect to see on the Discovery channel, but quickly turned into Private Ryan style film making, when the sgts convoy was stopped by the mine strike.  I don't remeber how the Capt and the Medic got out of their jams, but the choices for the Sgt were to call in a helicopter to pick up the wounded, send guys in to get the wounded out, make a bridge out of winch cable, run another vehicle out to get them, or wait for the engineers and a company of infantry to show up to protect them while rescuing them.  The helicopter got shot to pieces and had to fly off, the section that ran out got sniped at, tying into the medic story, the winch cable wasn't long enough and couldn't be thrown, the vehicle set off another mine.  I know it is a long post, but these adds were to show people the struggles and hard ship that their soldiers faced everyday, to put a human face on the "military", and demonstrate the consequences of snap decisions.  The catch phrase was simple, asking the audience what they would do, and then letting them know what happened.  People in the theatres really cheered for these, because they were actually exciting to watch and had a human side as well, also they served beer in the theatre in New Castle. not like the one we had a few years ago about the lady jumping from the Herc and then being the crew commander in a tank.  

My point is that people are interested in interesting things.  Something they can relate to a little bit.  making stuff interactive is a great way, but like others have said, it is best to remind the public that these are warriors, not international police, or Chretien's "Boy Scouts"


----------



## Canuck_25

Well, I remember seeing the DND commercials a while back. Also, we have recruitment book marks in our school. No poster though.

 I remember one student joking while looking at the book mark that said "Strong, proud, today's Canadian forces." 

 He said. "demorarised, weak, today's Canadian forces."


----------



## Freddy Chef

GDawg said:
			
		

> ...I wish our problem were as simple as "advertising". To me the problem is a cultural one ...
> I hate to say it, but from my observations, 85% of high school kids don't give a darn about the world, Canada, or her army...



Most of today's kids are more self-serving, self-absorbed, self-obsessed, and selfish. A CF service member is more selfless; â Å“Don't blade buddyâ ?.  Most of these kids would bastardize the John F. Kennedy quote to, *â ?Ask not what you can do for your country, ask what your country can do for you.â ?*

I went back to school, two years ago, and even some of the first year university kids have the same attitude; *â ?The world owes me a livingâ ?, â Å“The world revolves around meâ ?*.

I think that only about 30%- 40% of today's kids are even worth recruiting. The remainder are just all talk and no action. They'd spend hours playing HALO 2, but wouldn't dare sign up for QL2-QL3 (the modern equivalent, that is), let alone endure it.

More advertising may attract the desired percentile. But the majority of today's youth still don't understand the word *â ?earnâ ?*. 

As *recceguy* pointed out, emphasis should be placed on the people that actually want to be in the CF.

*GDawg* pointed out that education about the CF should be introduced in grade school. Work ethic and attitude should also be introduced (reintroduced?) into the grade school curriculum.


----------



## goodform

It has been my experience, for the limited amount I have, that people are generally uninformed about the CF. To promote interest it helps to give someone an understanding of what can or does happen to soldiers. I also know a lot of people aren't going to go out of their way to find out about it. Posters and commercials help, but just like the originator of this thread said, he had to talk to people. I know that recruiters go out and talk to highschool students, but it's mostly about RMC as far as I remember. Guess another captive audience needs to be found as schools already refuse a lot of organizations because so many want to come in and talk to the kids.

That Brit ad sounds great.


----------



## aesop081

Freddy Chef said:
			
		

> .
> 
> pointed out that education about the CF should be introduced in grade school.



As much as i agree with that general idea....what exactly do you think that the reaction to that would be ? Remember what country you live in ? I honestly don't think that the idea would go over well with the peace freaks of the nation !  Remeber that we live in a country where, in one instance, a school banned mother's day because it would offend kids with 2 male parents, even though the school had no students in that situation.

lets be more realistic........


----------



## Love793

We're also a country that a University kicked a CFRC Det out of a Job fair that they where invited to attend, because a left winged extremist, complained about their presence.  No mention of the fact that 30 plus students at the school are reservists, and 5 other students are having their entire education paid for by the CF as part of ROTP.


----------



## GDawg

Love793 said:
			
		

> We're also a country that a University kicked a CFRC Det out of a Job fair that they where invited to attend, because a left winged extremist, complained about their presence.  No mention of the fact that 30 plus students at the school are reservists, and 5 other students are having their entire education paid for by the CF as part of ROTP.



High school kids are bad, but don't even get me started on some of the enlightened souls you'd meet at an institution of higher learning. Most folks out grow that level of ignorance, others grow up to become policy makers for certain federal political parties....


----------



## Paish

Well at the theater yesterday i saw a CF ad, i think its been around two years since i last saw one in theaters, good to see that they are back! Has anyone noticed this?


----------



## Michael Dorosh

I'd rather see them bring back the national anthem before movies....


----------



## kincanucks

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> I'd rather see them bring back the national anthem before movies....



Second that!!!  The National Anthem with military scenes.


----------



## camochick

Here in Edmonton they have  a whole city bus dedicated to recruiting. It has the recruiting poster painted all over it. It's kind of cool actually. hehe >


----------



## Paish

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> I'd rather see them bring back the national anthem before movies....



That existed once upon a time?
I think itd be cool too


----------



## x-grunt

Paish said:
			
		

> That existed once upon a time?
> I think itd be cool too



Not only did it exist, I remember a time when people would actually _stand up_ when it was played!

*sigh*


----------



## Michael Dorosh

x-grunt said:
			
		

> Not only did it exist, I remember a time when people would actually _stand up_ when it was played!
> 
> *sigh*



I was in Borden in 1992 or so and they still did it in the base theatres.  Surprised the hell out of me.


----------



## NCRCrow

The National Anthem was played prior to movies in Petawawa and Lahr. 

In Lahr (Westend Junior) we used to sing the National Anthem every morning, followed by the Lord's Prayer. 

Also before hockey/baseball games with American Bases (Heidelberg etc). The national anthem(s) would be played.

I sure felt proud to be Canadian!! :cdn


----------



## Arclite

Paish said:
			
		

> Well at the theater yesterday i saw a CF ad, i think its been around two years since i last saw one in theaters, good to see that they are back! Has anyone noticed this?



I've noticed it too. I see CF ads everywhere.. calling to me.... so i answered


----------



## Pte. Bloggins

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> I was in Borden in 1992 or so and they still did it in the base theatres.   Surprised the heck out of me.



Yeah, they did it in the base theatre in Shilo when I was there in 2003. Surprised the heck out of everyone, but kind of reminded me why I what I was there for.


----------



## Navalsnpr

To the best of my knowledge, the National Anthem is always played prior to a movie at a Base Theatre.

All military members used to stand up when it was played.

Don't know if the bases still have theatres or not. Probably only on bases that are in rural areas.


----------



## Big Foot

They didn't play the anthem at the theatre in St-Jean this past summer. Dunno if thats normal or not.


----------



## Navalsnpr

Who runs the theatres now?   PSP??

That's probably why..


----------



## Spr.Earl

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> I'd rather see them bring back the national anthem before movies....


In the U., God Save The Queen is played at the end of the Movie.
If you want to see somthing funny wait till the end and watch the mad rush for ;D the door and only older people standing it's funny and not. ;D


----------



## Whiskey_Dan

Yeah, I've noticed a lot more CF recruiting in public since the start of 2004. I guess the government is actually trying to fulfill its promise of more troops for the armed forces. Im in the application process right now and a lot of the guys I talked to said I'd probly be doing BMQ this summer.


----------



## CrimsonSeil

i heard a ad on the radio in BC  ;D


----------



## BDTyre

They've got one of those here in Vancouver, and at least one GMC Suburban.

Quite a sight to see the CF Bus try to park in the parking lot in one of the strip malls where I live (just south of Vancouver) and see about forty all file into the ABC Country Restraunt.



			
				camochick said:
			
		

> Here in Edmonton they have   a whole city bus dedicated to recruiting. It has the recruiting poster painted all over it. It's kind of cool actually. hehe >


----------



## Da_man

yep its back, and i think they added a few scenes


----------



## Paish

Da_man said:
			
		

> yep its back, and i think they added a few scenes


Not that i could decifer, i have that ad locked in my mind, best ad ever!


----------



## Pyromechanica

I just came back from a movie at the theater and I saw the CF ad. One thing though, was that the old olive uniforms the inf were wearing in the ad?

I also hear a lot more CF radio commercials, like the one where the female goes "So do you want an adventure?" or something along the lines of that.


----------



## BKells

The national anthem before movies would be outrageous. I think even in high schools it's old fashioned and out dated. It's borderline propaganda in my opinion.


----------



## scm77

Pyromechanica said:
			
		

> I also hear a lot more CF radio commercials, like the one where the female goes "So do you want an adventure?" or something along the lines of that.



I heard a commercial on the radio the other day.  I listen to the radio quite a bit and this was the first one I had heard in more then a year .

BKells - The national anthem in schools is borderline propaganda???  Please explain how.


----------



## George Wallace

BKells said:
			
		

> The national anthem before movies would be outrageous. I think even in high schools it's *old fashioned*  and out dated. It's borderline propaganda in my opinion.



Isn't that nice......


----------



## big bad john

BKells said:
			
		

> The national anthem before movies would be outrageous. I think even in high schools it's old fashioned and out dated. It's borderline propaganda in my opinion.



Is he on our side?


----------



## Paish

big bad john said:
			
		

> Is he on our side?



I dont know, i fully support the playing of our national anthem anytime!


----------



## SKnight

There was a time were that the anthem was play before every movie and the were no ads at all.
I thing the younger generation have lost there sense of patroitism b/c of little things like this.


----------



## big bad john

If you want to start a riot in 5 seconds flat in the UK, slag the National Anthem!


----------



## Pte. Bloggins

BKells said:
			
		

> The national anthem before movies would be outrageous. I think even in high schools it's old fashioned and out dated. It's borderline propaganda in my opinion.



hooh boy...some how I have a feeling that a can of slimy creatures has been opened...

You might want to take a good look at that red and white scrap of material on your left arm there, buddy, and remind yourself why you go to the armoury to play soldier every week.


----------



## Wizard of OZ

BKells said:
			
		

> The national anthem before movies would be outrageous. I think even in high schools it's old fashioned and out dated. It's borderline propaganda in my opinion.



Two questions 

1) How is it propaganda?

2) Last time i looked they still taught history in highschool with a Canadian focus, and get this even religion in some schools. 

 Wow some burn a barn this could be a long night,  Your kidding me right a problem with the national athem, bet he has no problem cashing his comfy federal check or using the federal health care system or any of the other lovely things that we as a nation pay for.  (like using a DIN system to post on)

Goodness people like that really get my goat. sorry sorry 

camo chick i thought you were in BC and now your are in Edmonton?


----------



## NCRCrow

Forum:
To call the playing of the National Anthem propaganda is disloyal. 

The Armouries (Cartier Drill Square) where young BKells parades is in front of the War Memorial and behind is the heart of Canada and our society. The Parliament Buildings!

If I am missing the point, I still do not apologise. I may have some pointed opinions in the Forums but calling the playing of our National Anthem propaganda is not one of them.

I remember some of friends that passed, MCpl John Ternapolski (Bosnia), MS Billy Hynes(NATO) and the service persons, i did not know. I remember what it means to be Canadian.

When I was at Rideau Hall recently to receive my OP ATHENA medal and saw a young widow standing by her father receiving a medal post-humously on her husbands behalf. It brings me back to that cold January Day in Kabul.

BKells, you have a long way to go. When you walk by the War Memorial in your Balmoral and Cadpat, just remember to salute. 

Its the least you could do!!


----------



## big bad john

This lad definitely needs some counselling from his Warrant Officer.


----------



## CDNBlackhawk

Boy oh Boy, you think its propaganda to have the National Anthem played, I suggest you rethink your commitment and obligation to our country lad.


----------



## DJ

"Strange it is that men should admit the validity of the arguments for free discussion, but object to their being "pushed to an extreme," not seeing that unless the reasons are good for an extreme case, they are not good for any case.  Strange that they should imagine that they are not assuming infallibility when they acknowledge that there should be free discussion on all subjects, which can possibly be doubtful, but think that some particular principle or doctrine  should be forbidden to be questioned because it is so certain, that is, because they are certain that it is certain.  To call any proposition certain, while there is anyone who would deny its certainty if permitted, but who is not permitted, is to assume that we ourselves, and those who agree with us, are the judges of certainty, and judges without hearing the other side."
From J.S. Mill, "On Liberty."  

I used to sing the national anthem louder than anyone when I was in school.  However, my reason for being in the army is to protect people's rights and, more and more, to protect the idea of democracy.  I thought that this forum is about the exchanging of ideas.  I understand that not all people share the same perspectives however I'm sure more constructive criticism can be conjured than calling into question the loyalty of fellow soldiers.  Many of us are in our combats to confront the 'tyrannies of the majority' from all corners of the globe and yet we condone such behaviour among ourselves.


----------



## Wizard of OZ

I don't think anybody questioned his right to have an opinion.  We all get to have one of those whether we like it or not.

I just question his loyalty to the forces if he considers our national anthem to be "propaganda"  tough to serve a flag you don't respect.


----------



## Gouki

Yeah, it's really propaganda to play the anthem honouring the country that you reside in. I know that everytime I hear the anthem, my eyes gloss over and I begin to mumble "the Liberals can do no wrong ... Martin is God .. gun control empowers the gun owners"

You really need your definition of what is propaganda cleared up for you. It's unfortunate you couldn't live in a sattelite country of the USSR - then you'd learn what propaganda *really* is.


----------



## R031button

BKells said:
			
		

> The national anthem before movies would be outrageous. I think even in high schools it's old fashioned and out dated. It's borderline propaganda in my opinion.



 Yeah, god forbid you show a bit of loyalty to the entity that's supporting your ass through schoold, prioviding you with health care, providing your roads, and in your case, giving you a pay check. Patriotism isn't propaganda.


----------



## Wizard of OZ

;D ;D  what about sponsorship?   ;D ;D ;D


----------



## Whiskey_Dan

BKells said:
			
		

> The national anthem before movies would be outrageous. I think even in high schools it's old fashioned and out dated. It's borderline propaganda in my opinion.


WOAH THERE...did YOU just say "old fashioned and out dated" and in high schools?? I certainly hope your not from BC or anywhere in Canada for that matter!
I go to Tamanawis Secondary school where the kids say "Canada what!" and repsect our flag and nationalism. Since when is being patriotic propaganda!?
I know for a fact that I would never, ever, want to be singing the star spangled banner, and neither would anyone at my school, we love Canada and the Maple Leaf that flies proudly over our school! 

Dan


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

BKells since when is the National Anthem propaganda?  I bet your the kinda of guy that doesn't take his hat off when they play it at sporting events.


----------



## chrisf

I've been thinking... in an age where we desperately grasp at ways to recruit and retain new troops, perhaps it's time to search for an alternative, or at least parallel to recruiting ads...

And it struck me... television... television presents us with a variety of free alternatives... all sorts of reality televisions... all looking for participants...

Imagine, entering an MLVW on MTV's "Pimp my ride", or perhaps while the PPCLI were on exercise, the RCR could contact TLC's "While you were out" about redecorating the barracks...

Ah well, I suppose it will never happen... and I was so looking foreward to gangster rims on my rad van.


----------



## The_Falcon

West Coast Custom would probably take one look at an ML, and condemn it.


----------



## dw_1984

I think the best type of recruiting is done by us.  Tell your friends about what you do and invite them to come see.


----------



## qor556

Yes I also think word-of-mouth is the best recruiting device. I actually have recently been asked by a few of my teachers in my school who are aware of my involvement in the CF to talk to their class about it. Almost all of the feedback I got was positive where I also informed them how to get started...which was surprisingly their main concern. I am not designated to officially do any recruiting but talking to interested students one-on-one is essential by someone who has gone through most of it- although not all. Anyways, get 'em while they're young!  ;D


----------



## BDTyre

A co-worker is a former GM mechanic and my word-of-mouth got him pretty interested in the Vehicle Tech trade...and I'm not even in the Forces yet.


----------



## jc5778

Why can't we produce ads like the Americans do?  I know, I know.....just hear me out.  U need a heavy metal tune in the background (i.e. Drowning pool, pantera, something)  Gets u pumped, show the infantry, SAR Techs, JTF (within reason of course) tankers, engineers, pilots, etc...all doing some of the better tasks associated with our job.  Make it "look cool" to join (a little mis-leading yes).  I watch the US navy adds and I want to join.  I watch the Canadian ones and......it makes us look weak.  I'm not sure that t.v. is the best medium to attract logistics, probably career days at school are better for that.  Anyways I'm sure that my idea would look too aggressive for our country, even though my trades objective is to "close with and destroy the enemy!"  Oh well just an idea..... :warstory:


----------



## Razic

I agree with 7 - 10 days, good ideas all around though, something like that Slovenian army recruiting video that was up in the foreign militaries section.  I also think that we should escalate the number of public displays we do.  The Queen's Own Rifles are planning on spreading out to a new Scarborugh armory, there are tons of malls and high schools in the Scarborugh area where we could set up recruiting displays with all the info you would need to start up and usually the equipment and weapon displays draw quite a few interested people to at least come do a rambo pose.  Even in schools its not a problem for the weapons as I clearly recall in my school there was a display with all our current small arms weapons, and then they even brought a Coyote or LAVIII dont remember...


----------



## capt j

Sigs Op 

Funny you should mention reality TV great minds think alike or is it small minds differ anyway. I am in a position to influence the very subject of LFRR growth specifically within the Army Reserves and am looking at the concept of touching our very media savvy target audience in via such a venue.........


----------



## Inch

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Imagine, entering an MLVW on MTV's "Pimp my ride", or perhaps while the PPCLI were on exercise, the RCR could contact TLC's "While you were out" about redecorating the barracks...
> 
> Ah well, I suppose it will never happen... and I was so looking foreward to gangster rims on my rad van.



12 Wing is way ahead of you buddy. Check out my sweet ride.


----------



## civvy3840

I've never even seen a CF ad. Until yesterday I saw two on tv and heard one for the army reserve on the radio.


----------



## BernDawg

Inch said:
			
		

> 12 Wing is way ahead of you buddy. Check out my sweet ride.


But will it stay in the air any longer than before?


----------



## Inch

BernDawg said:
			
		

> But will it stay in the air any longer than before?



They've always stayed in the air (except when inlet guide vanes aren't adjusted properly a la 401 on the deck of the Iroquois). They don't fall out of the sky like the media would have you believe.


----------



## big bad john

Inch said:
			
		

> 12 Wing is way ahead of you buddy. Check out my sweet ride.



Urban Camouflage?  LOL


----------



## condor888000

Gangsta camoflage...


----------



## chrisf

Inch - Nice rims. What sort of sound system does it have?

Capt J - I believe the expression you were searching for is fools seldom differ, though I'll accept great minds think alike if you will. That being said, while I was clearly joking, I can see it being a very positive way to reach an audience for a very low cost... too bad "Junkyard Wars" is off the air... imagine entering a handful of EMEs as a team... the brothers in arms did quite well, and they were British, and combat engineers at that... imagine how well a team of Canadian's who were also mechanics could do? I'm guessing one of the issues would be how to do such a thing while maintaining an air of professionalisim... does this mean no gangster rims on an LSVW? *sigh*


----------



## Inch

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Inch - Nice rims. What sort of sound system does it have?



Only the best my friend, UHF, VHF and HF radios pumping out a mind numbing watt or two into some cool looking helmets.


----------



## chrisf

Nice... I'm guessing it's even got some sweet hydraulics.


----------



## Inch

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Nice... I'm guessing it's even got some sweet hydraulics.



Sure does, not just one system, but three independent systems!


----------



## MdB

CF most recently began airing again CF ads on TV, which I find a good idea. It puts CF on the map again and on Canadians mind.

Alternative to ads, series like Truth, Duty, Valor bring a real view and taste of the CF reality (well, some) to the Canadians. I think this is one of the best way to reach lot of people.

Cheers,


----------



## Pikache

One thing that amazes me is amount of sponsorship US army does. They sponsor what seems to be EVERYTHING. Heck, I saw them sponsoring a professional rodeo before.

CF reality show... hmmm... Survivor: Meaford sounds good to anyone?


----------



## JimmyPeeOn

The ad i saw was all humanitarian aid.  Putting civy's into a Griffon and whatnot.  What about an ad showing the boys playing with LAV's and 84's?  That would make me wanna go blow some stuff up


----------



## qor556

Meaford!  

Send 'em off with a KFS and a month's worth of pure IMPs (discarding the lasagnas and stroganoff, pure suspicious ham-like meals  :-X) ...Now that is real survivor-great entertainment I'd say.


----------



## Infanteer

48Highlander said:
			
		

> That and stop putting out recruiting campaigns geared specificaly towards women which make the military seem like one big tea-party.   If we tell people that it's all fun and games, can you really blame them for quitting when they find out what a bag-drive it can be?



Good point - that is one thing that I really think is both superficial and a waste of money.

First, lets see how our Allies are recruiting.   What are they showcasing?   What do they try to "sell" when you walk through their electronic door?   Go to the British Army Recruiting Page - What's it say?

http://www.army.mod.uk/careers/

*"Army Jobs: Not your Basic Training"* with *"Combat"* as the first search page.

Royal Marines?

http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/2650.html

*"Seaborne Assault. The Very Essence of the Royal Marines"* with the motto *"How Bad do you Want This?   99.99% Need Not Apply."*

The Australian Army?

http://www.defencejobs.gov.au/default.asp?p=60

*"Courage, Initiative, Teamwork"* with the motto *"The Army. The Edge."*

The American Army?

http://www.goarmy.com/flindex.jsp

*"An Army of One"* (OK, that one sucks) with an *"Operation Night Strike"* Interactive Feature.

The United States Marine Corps?

http://www.marines.com/

The traditional motto of *"The Marines: The Few, The Proud"* with three menus: *"Those who are Warriors, Those who are Driven, and Those who Belong.*"

Now, go to the CFRC Recruiting Page right now.   Here, I will help you:

http://www.recruiting.forces.gc.ca/engraph/home/index_e.aspx?bhcp=1

The first thing that pops up is *"Women in the Canadian Forces - Click Here"*.   It is followed by *"Canadian Forces Aboriginal Entry Program"* and *"Pay Increase!"*.   I look at this and I say is

What the Fuck?!?

Not only do we not give any pictures, mottos, or anything that emphasises Duty, Pride in Service, Dedication, Challenge, or Preparing to Defend the Nation - all those values that the Military has traditionally relied upon to draw recruits - but also, we seem to be willing to pander towards interests groups based around minorities and women and bragging about a few more bucks for work.

I guess this is an open challenge to whoever is driving the CFRC recruiting, as we don't seem to be focusing on young, aggressive Canadians (regardless of background) who seek challenge, adventure and commitment.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Great post Infanteer, i think you hit the nail right on the head regarding Canadian Forces recruiting compared to our allies.

Rather embarassing of us...


----------



## dirky

""""Not only do we not give any pictures, mottos, or anything that emphasises Duty, Pride in Service, Dedication, Challenge, or Preparing to Defend the Nation - all those values that the Military has traditionally relied upon to draw recruits.  Rather, we pander to minority groups and women and bragging about a few more bucks for work.

I guess this is an open challenge to whoever is driving the CFRC recruiting, as we don't seem to be focusing on  young, aggressive Canadians who seek challenge, adventure and commitment."""""


ever heard of "Striving for Peace While preparing for war?"  

I have to disagree with the fact of trying to SELL the army to people.  I take pride in knowing that the people in our forces wernt susepted to lame commericals fabricated by the professionals - whos job is to trick the HUMAN MIND.  Its a wonder however how jobs in the forestry serive attract a lot more youth than the military seem to(NO ADVERTISING WHATSOEVER).  

I think a lot of canadian youth find challenge, adventure and commitment in other places.  Canadian Industry such as Oil, logging, etc attrack a herd of kids too.  Not to mention the big bucks.


Perhaps our youth are in a sense smarter, they see past the gimicks of the Army.  I too am younger (not too young) and whenever i see an advertisment for any army i think...geeze, that was friggin cheezy.


BOOYAH! :-*


----------



## 48Highlander

dirky said:
			
		

> I have to disagree with the fact of trying to SELL the army to people.   I take pride in knowing that the people in our forces wernt susepted to lame commericals fabricated by the professionals - whos job is to trick the HUMAN MIND.   Its a wonder however how jobs in the forestry serive attract a lot more youth than the military seem to(NO ADVERTISING WHATSOEVER).




    Hey, no advertisements would be fine too.  The problem I have with the recruiting campaigns though is that not only are we trying to sell ourselves (no jokes please), but we're misepresenting what we do, and aiming at every demographic except white males.  It's pathetic.  As someone pointed out, false adverising is a fact of the business world, however most companies use false advertising IN THEIR FAVOUR.  What are we using it for?  To attract the demographic which is most likely to quite and leave us holding the bill.  Someone in the puzzle palace must have been really hung-over when they came up with that plan.

    Someone earlier pointed out that males are subject to the same sort of soft touchy-feely warm-and-fuzzy campaigns, but they don't quit as often.  Well, a lot of males join the army because they WANT to belong to some sort of macho organization.  To do the impossible and achieve the unachieavable three times before breakfast and again before lunch.  The ones who join expecting a fun summer-camp-style atmosphere usualy do end up quiting; the ones who knew what they were in for don't.  Same goes for females, except from my experience anyway a much higher percentage of females seems to be totaly unprepared for the reality of military life.  Probably because they're much less likely to be looking for a macho career - which is the same reason so few of them join to begin with.  I get the feeling that most females think we're a bunch of musclebound oversexed meatheads, and want nothing to do with the army;  then they see our kind and gentle recruiting videos and think "hey, maybe it's different than I thought".  Whereas guys just see guns and think "ALLRIGHT, I get to shoot shit!".  

    Infanteer, I loved your post   It's definitely going in my scrap-book.


----------



## Infanteer

Good to see others have alarm bells going off as well.



			
				dirky said:
			
		

> I have to disagree with the fact of trying to SELL the army to people.   I take pride in knowing that the people in our forces wernt susepted to lame commericals fabricated by the professionals - whos job is to trick the HUMAN MIND.   Its a wonder however how jobs in the forestry serive attract a lot more youth than the military seem to(NO ADVERTISING WHATSOEVER).



Well Dirky, bottom line is, the military has to sell itself to people.   When the civilian market offers people jobs that pay better, give you regular hours, and let you go home to your family, you have to give people some reason to pursue a career that doesn't live up to these "normal" things.   I think "Pay Raise!" is a stupid way to advertise - ask any Professional if they "did it for the money" and I guarantee you most will say no.   Of course pay is important - all soldiers should be able to live comfortably - but the Military can't and shouldn't be trying to recruit people on the basis of salaries.

As well, I don't want to appear like I'm ranting against Natives or Women in the CF by pointing out our ad focus towards them.   I really could care less who was in the uniform.   I just feel that by aiming our recruiting towards a specific group or target, your creating a recruiting atmosphere that gives the message of *"You <insert minority group here>, the CF has a special place for you and we'll go out of our way to accommodate you!   Join now!"*.   I'm all for recruiting Canadians of any stripe - but lets recruit them for the right reasons.

What are the right reasons?   As I've alluded to before Challenge, Commitment, Duty, Honour, and joining a very unique Team.   The fact that a soldier will do things that most civilians can't or won't do.   We must form our recruiting "pitch" around this notion - as the webpages of our Allies clearly display, soldiering is built around combat.   Recruiting can't shy away from the fact that, when everything else is stripped away, the ultimate fact of soldiering is being called upon to commit violence on behalf of the Nation.

Face it, most kids these days are going to find Information on the Forces through Surfing on over to the Internet.   Go to the other sites of listed, and one gets a "feel" - right from the very start - that those Forces see preparing and fighting as their bottom line.   When I click the CF link, the impression I get is "Another organization pushing some sort of socialization agenda".   The website isn't the only culprit - the infamous adds of CF members of all stripes with no weapons seem to come to mind.   We must find the "recruiting focus" - need a start?   Click the other Military pages I linked to.

On a final note, I think that these types of programs create a "poisoned atmosphere" for women/natives/minorities that they themselves may not appreciate (if they are capable professionals, then they shouldn't).   All their fellow troops will tend to hold the attitude that any achievement by the soldier, even if he earned it on pure merit, was based on their "targeted" minority status.   Don't believe me?   I've seen this before personally, and so have others - as A Majoor pointed out some time ago:



			
				a_majoor said:
			
		

> True story:
> 
> In 1994, I was an instructor at the RCR Battleschool in Pet, teaching a QL-3 Infantry course. There I had the pleasure of instructing the best candidate I have ever had (and I have instructed on Basic, Junior Leadership, Basic Officer Training Course and RESO over the years). This guy was smart, in both the "book" and "street" sense, was a superb athlete, had natural charisma (the section would follow his lead off duty), and was photogenic to boot. In military slang, this guy was a "streamer", and I could see him moving quickly up the ranks, or taking a commission.
> 
> Unfortunately, at the end of the course, the first ever "self identification" survey came out and the troops were required to fill them out. My candidate was extremely upset, and justifiably so; for no matter how good he was, or how much ability or merit he displayed, for the rest of his career, his accomplishments would be discounted as being due to his ethnic background: he was a Cree from Saskatchewan.



I hope others feel this way as well.


----------



## paracowboy

Infanteer,
spot on! Throw in more profanity and vulgarity, and you have one of my usual morning rants! For anybody involved in thses stupid recruiting adds, HERE is an example of why we serve. This is an article from a recent Marine Corps Times. The author is, obviously, a Marine, but his message is inter-service and international:

As I worked my way through the final weeks of preparation for my deployment to Iraq, I noted the same strange occurrence that always seems to happen right before I leave: weird questions from friends and family. Even stranger were the blank looks I would get after answering. These are people I love and respect, and many have known me all my life. I know they are concerned for my welfare. However, the majority of the questions left me baffled. 

The most common question I was asked when they found out I was deploying was: â Å“Did you volunteer for this?â ? 

I always gave the same answer: â Å“Yes, I did, when I signed up 23 years ago.â ? They gave me blank looks. 

I tried to explain that this is what I do, and when I took the oath, I volunteered for anything and everything that comes up. 

In fact, I did want to go on this deployment. Why? Because I don't want to miss anything. Like all Marines, I want to be where the action is. This seems hard for civilians to understand. Even my poor worrywart of a mother, who has seen me deploy several times over the years, always asks me that question and never seems satisfied with the answer. But she's my mother and, like all mothers, she has the right to worry as much as she wants. 

The questions didn't come only from people who lead relatively safe, routine lifestyles, either. 

I have a good friend who is a police officer and a member of his city's SWAT team. He routinely kicks in the doors of drug dealers, handles hostage situations and has lived through a few â Å“OK Corralâ ?-type shootouts. So I was astonished when he asked me a few weeks before I left: â Å“Can't you get out of this deployment? Don't you think Iraq is a dangerous place?â ? 

It was my turn for the blank look. 

I would guess that just about every Marine gets these questions before deploying, and I'll bet they are as perplexed as I am. 

We Marines don't think the same way civilians do about the Iraq situation. I'm not saying we are smarter or better than anybody else. Just different. 

But what makes us think so differently? I've been a recruiter, and I know that the young men and women who join the Corps come in all shapes and sizes, and from almost every possible ethnic, religious and economic background. Many are tough, street-smart kids, while just as many grew up spoiled. They are as diverse a group as you'll find. 

But look closely, and you'll see that what all these people have in common is the way they think. It's not something taught by parents or at school. It's based on what they consider important, and maybe most of all on what they're searching for. 

Because of the way they think, the vast majority of Marines are somewhat restless. It seems they are always looking for something to do or to get into. 

What they're looking for (whether they know it or not) is the right state of being, a place where they fit in â â€ where they can find people who are looking for the same thing. Many of these people will find a lifelong home in the Marine Corps. I did. 

The attitude that binds us together is based on the core belief that life is meant to be lived â â€ and not from a couch or behind a computer screen â â€ and that you aren't living unless you are constantly being challenged. 

When you search for real challenges, you put yourself in harm's way. In the end, it's worth the risk. 

It's also a Corps cornerstone belief that sacrifice and loyalty to each other is essential, and that giving of yourself, but not just for yourself, is worthwhile. 

People who think this way do it naturally. Our training fosters it, but either you get it or you don't. 

Marines do, and that's the reason we will never understand questions from those who don't. 

I hope I never do. 

By Paul J. Roarke Jr.
The writer, a master gunnery sergeant, is the ordnance chief for the 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing (Forward) at Al Asad Air Base, Iraq.


----------



## sdimock

So 10 or 12 of our heftier members get dropped off at Odark30 with a months worth of IMPs.

I like it, we wouldn't want to miss out watching the challenges but what about the rewards?

Being voted out of Meaford?

How long before they turn to cannibalism, sorry you can't eat me, I've got a chit.


----------



## winchable

I'm going to go on a limb here and say (Has anyone noticed how little I have to do today, this is what my 4th post today and it's only noon?)
and say that I am in the demographic that the forces should be recruiting.

18-22 year old, highschool/college graduate.
Heavily involved in athletics/extras
Looking for a challenge after years of classroom.
Young, Unattached (not married anyway) healthy etc.
In need of a job/career, skills etc. not related to school.
And of course, interested in A military career.

So I'm going to make a massive...perhaps stupid generalisation, and say that I represent in many ways what recruiting should be going for. (oh that does sound arrogant doesn't it?)

And when I compare every site, nothing on the CF with the exception of perhaps "what skills/trades I might get out of it." catches my eye.

Firstly, they need to sex it up a bit..not pornography but for chrissakes there's no "interactivity" (think "raid" or "commando adventure" type of games...just silly internet stuff but as Infanteer pointed out, this is the best recruiting tool we have, so even if it's a Seemingly silly Java game, get them thinking about the "meat" of what the military is.
It's all very bland and institutional (sounds like highschool/university where I've spend the last 14-18 years)

And of course to reiterate and support (perhaps redundantly) what Infanteer said
It says nothing about, Honour, Strength, Pride, Commitment, ..War (oh bad word)..fine "Combat"
Or at least it doesn't mention it enough, That should be the focus.
The CF should be only partially a "Job Opportunity" looking at the website it's a wonder that we get anyone who wants to join for any other reason besides getting a job.

I remember doing PT once with a group, a MCPL was running with us (this was out of uniform and off duty) and to encourage he said "You've already done more then 99% of the population can do, why don't you just run up that fucking hill?"
Now...why don't they put something like that on the website.
Like I said, sex it up.
Don't even need a catchy phrase (though it couldn't hurt) they might do good to shorten the URL to "FORCESRECRUITING.ca" but like I said, Jobs are such a small part of the forces, appeal to the adventurous (stupidly romantic like myself even) hard working people.

Sorry if that was redundant, but CF recruiting is a sore point I'm normally far too silent on and I wonder how many people like me, who have other options, they've lost because of the current style.


----------



## Infanteer

Che said:
			
		

> So I'm going to make a massive...perhaps stupid generalisation, and say that I represent in many ways what recruiting should be going for. (oh that does sound arrogant doesn't it?)



Of course, you realize that as soon as the CF figured out your religious background they would be falling over themselves to have you fill out "Self-Identification" forms. :

You're on the mark, Che.  Young, fit, and reasonably intelligent Canadians is what we should be targeting.  How to do it?  Show these young, fit soldiers doing tasks that show how demanding and unique the mission we do it.  Not waving like a retard, not looking stressed out while doing some mundane task, not sitting in a big, colourful, multicultural group - no, we need to show soldiers, with (gasp) weapons, performing the job of a soldier.  And no, don't grab an Asian Female and take her aside to do this - just go out and take pictures of regular units on ex and ops.  Is there going to be alot of white dudes in your pictures?  So what....


----------



## FSTO

You would think that with the explosive growth in extreme sports that the tall forheads in Ottawa would wake up to the fact that the youth of today are looking for something to satisfy their need to be on the edge of things. One of the reasons that we are going to have a very difficult time recruiting the 5,000 extra people is that the general public have been raised on the Peacekeeper diet. Therefore they think that our armed forces do nothing except be socialized daycare workers.
I agree with many of the above posts that our recruiting system sells the bland and safe and don't sell the sizzle. Therefore we attract the bland.
Anyway I am rambling and must get back to PER writing.


----------



## Gayson

Such challenges could include:

1)  A 10km race ran through tank rut central of the base (anywhere that is the field) at night.

2)  An Elimination challenge, everyone walks on the grass, last one to get caught and jacked by the DSM wins.


----------



## winchable

I think I said it about 4 times, but I think the shortest and simplest answer (which FTSO touched on with "The sizzle") is we have to "sex up" the recruiting a bit...not actual sex of course, not explicit photos, just that sizzle, that air of danger perhaps.


----------



## Maritime_Matt

The whole idea of getting a trade helps sell the military pretty well, from my stand point. The mental challenge and the financial stability make the CF look like an excellent work environment especially compared to: the call center, office, restaurant, or shopping center.


----------



## Island Ryhno

I think that a large portion of this problem is that the forces are not looked upon the same way here in Canada as they are elsewhere. I.E. in the U.S. being a marine or a ranger carries with it a sense of pride and tradition. In canada, if you were to to tell people that you were a "Cowboy" from the PPCLI, they'd get googly eyes, like WTF are you gagging about? The greatest commercial ever made for the Canadian forces was the Juno Beach ad by, get this......TIM HORTONS. That should tell us something, people don't know about Kapyong, Juno Beach, Ypres, Beaumont Hamel, Vimy Ridge. We need to mould our forces around heroism, pride, integrity and GUTS. Like the Royal Marines recruiting slogan says....99.99% Need Not Apply


----------



## dirky

I think the best way to recurit kids would be to show up at their school with helicopters or Tanks.  Maybe show up in a PE class and start yelling and forcing pushups.  Perhaps shooting weapons at school property would be cool (stuff kids hate).  Maybe set up some sort of terrorist thingy where everyone in the school things theyre gonna get gasses by terrorists, then the canadian army rappels doen from Griffins, shooting in the school with blanks, and pretend killing these terrorists.  then kids woudl be like COOL, i though i twas goning chu Die!


----------



## condor888000

The first ain't that bad. (The showing up with choppers and APCs)

The rest are some of the most irresponsible, stupid, and in some cases illegal ideas I've ever heard regarding recruiting.


----------



## Stomper

The "Breakthrough" (the second half of it), "Priceless", and "Artillery" videos that were made for exercise Stalwart Guardian are the style of advertising that I think would really appeal to younger people, especially those who may be interested in combat arms positions. They looked pretty appealing to me.

The videos are available here: http://www.army.dnd.ca/LFCA/EXStalwartGuardian/english/Video.asp

Although, I could see it creating a potential problem with people leaving after they join and realize that they're not always doing the 'cool stuff'.


----------



## Jarnhamar

> Perhaps our youth are in a sense smarter, they see past the gimicks of the Army.   I too am younger (not too young) and whenever i see an advertisment for any army i think...geeze, that was friggin cheezy.



Well I guess those cheesy commercials do their job when it comes to weeding out certian types of people eh


----------



## JimmyPeeOn

dirky said:
			
		

> I think the best way to recurit kids would be to show up at their school with helicopters or Tanks.  Maybe show up in a PE class and start yelling and forcing pushups.  Perhaps shooting weapons at school property would be cool (stuff kids hate).  Maybe set up some sort of terrorist thingy where everyone in the school things theyre gonna get gasses by terrorists, then the canadian army rappels doen from Griffins, shooting in the school with blanks, and pretend killing these terrorists.  then kids woudl be like COOL, i though i twas goning chu Die!


There's probably enough guns in the schools as it is.  Enemy force would probably get a real hole or 2 in them.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Way to contribute to the site dirky. 

I think you should pretend post for a little while.


----------



## Glorified Ape

Ghost778 said:
			
		

> Way to contribute to the site dirky.
> 
> I think you should pretend post for a little while.



I thought it was kind of funny...


----------



## Jarnhamar

No doubt


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

dirky said:
			
		

> I think the best way to recurit kids would be to show up at their school with helicopters or Tanks.   Maybe show up in a PE class and start yelling and forcing pushups.   Perhaps shooting weapons at school property would be cool (stuff kids hate).   Maybe set up some sort of terrorist thingy where everyone in the school things theyre gonna get gasses by terrorists, then the canadian army rappels doen from Griffins, shooting in the school with blanks, and pretend killing these terrorists.   then kids woudl be like COOL, i though i twas goning chu Die!



Ummmm yeah...... Okayyyyyyyyyyy.  :


----------



## Burrows

I dont need guns to kill the enemy... My look of stone death kills them instantly.


----------



## civvy3840

I'd love it if the army did that at my school! I'd miss some class and get to see a cool show! lol I bet the teachers would be ticked...


----------



## Mr. Ted

Let me chime in here with more bitterness. 

We live in a society so wedded to the idea of political correctness that many of us, even some rather intelligent ones, can find it hard to think outside that particular box.  The next generation is gonna come along, look back at how bent out of shape we were in an attemp to never offend, to never make anyone feel uncomfortable and ask us, "What the hell were you people thinking?"  Much like the hippies, we, as a group, will have to try to explain to them that each generation goes through a group or collective mandness, and political correctness was ours.  Much like a witch-hunt in modern times, we tried to weed out and persecute anyone that didn't agree that the most capable person in the world was a baldheaded minority lesbian single mother playing bass in a wheelchair.

Political Correctness can be defined as the "elevation of sensitivity over truth".  It runs rampant in the annoying corporate world I inhabit.  It's everywhere on TV.  You can't get away from it.  And unfortunately it runs rampant in the CF.

We are so scared of offending anyone with our recruiting efforts that we turn away those that we are probably needing the most - 19 - 30 yr old well educated men who want to work like dogs for the next 5 years for little recognition other than from their peers in their own units.  Men who want to protect their country(God forbid!  Does that mean shooting people?) while getting little sleep and eating with their hands thru a fine film of cam paint and diesel exhaust and CLP.

But no.  We are constantly bombarded with images of 19 year old 95 pound navy females looking at radar scopes while female voices are overdubbed in girlish tones saying "Strong" - (yeah right - that's why we have two fitness standards - because women are so incredibly strong) "Proud" (if you were proud you would show action from Tora Bora).

Some times I feel like a grouchy old man and I know I must sound like one.  But there comes a time when you get sick of swimming up stream in a river of horsesh**t and everytime you open your mouth having to swallow.  That's what it's like in the corporate world guys - it's the same all over.

Here's my idea of a recruiting spot.  A guy painted up in FFO balancing on the skid of a griffon while the rappel master tells him to go.  He swallows, he's nervous, but he does it anyways.  He hits the bottom, unhooks and joins his section with his rifle ready.  They move out over rough terrain at night using NVGs and avoid enemy patrols.  They hit some sort of objective and at the end it shows the section in front of a BBQ laughing together and slapping each other on the back.  Then a man's voice says...
                  "Do more than you ever thought you could.  Work harder than you ever thought you wanted to.  Find the family you never knew you had.  The Canadiam Armed Forces."

Mr. Ted

P.S. Am I good or what?


----------



## dirky

YAY!  now you guys understand.  ITs all about death and honor, Hard pride and the taste of Nalpalm in the morning.  The canadian army should make movies about canadian soldiers doing stuff in the artic, like intercepting russian subs and blowing ice bergs up and yeah totally, kids will go for it.  

The army should be protrayed at a super elightemed ultra force that is unstoppable, the only weakness can be something like polar bears instead of kryptonite.

I think i should be the one in charge of recuting.  get the bums off the street and into uniform.  

BOOYA :-*


----------



## civvy3840

Poalar Bears?? I was just saying it would be cool. I think that the army should send local units to schools with the tanks and everything and let some kids pick up the C7 and stuff. Like they did in Kingston this past weekend. They should also show Canadian soldiers on patrol in Afghanistan or in combat with a cool song then the slogan One army One Team One Vision appears on screen. I know a lot of people at my school would go for it.


----------



## qor556

dirky said:
			
		

> YAY!  now you guys understand.  ITs all about death and honor, Hard pride and the taste of Nalpalm in the morning.  The canadian army should make movies about canadian soldiers doing stuff in the artic, like intercepting russian subs and blowing ice bergs up and yeah totally, kids will go for it.
> 
> The army should be protrayed at a super elightemed ultra force that is unstoppable, the only weakness can be something like polar bears instead of kryptonite.
> 
> I think i should be the one in charge of recuting.  get the bums off the street and into uniform.
> 
> BOOYA :-*



That is the single funniest thing I've read in a while, you made my day  ;D   although extremely ridiculous


----------



## Torlyn

Behold, the Ninja Snipers are reborn...  

T


----------



## camochick

My old university was littered with posters about how the military would give you this big signing bonus if you joined after you got your degree or if you joined the reserves they would pay you to go to school. I guess they are going with the money drives people to do things type attitude. Not a good way to go that is for sure. Getting students to join to pay off debts is not going to bring quality people into the military.


----------



## Pieman

Nice post Mr. Ted. 

Bitter and Entertaining.   ;D

I have also noticed a lot more effort in the advertising campain from the CF. Not to long ago I heard a radio ad which was very new. The ad was one woman talking to some guy about her job in the CF. She convinced the guy to join up because it paid better than his crappy job working whereever...brilliant! I bet that got them lined up at the recruiting center. 

I also saw one of the TV ads for the first time yesterday...it was the Navy version it seems, and I thought it was a neat add, showed lots of technical stuff which I am interested in. It grabs one's attention, but it certainly lacks in the 'flare' that Ghost778 was refering to. 

There is another ad I saw, which I will post about later...


----------



## Pieman

> Behold, the Ninja Snipers are reborn...


Uh oh, does this mean we have to do Ninja Sniper Training again?...I am not sure my poor liver can take it


----------



## TCBF

I like this.   Good posts.

When I was 17 or so, it seems there was a change in advertizing.   Instead of the magazine adds showing some grunt covered in mud behind an FN C2, it showed a man and a woman, smiling, holding briefcases, wearing CFs, standing on the steps leading into a 707.   The Navy Blue/Khaki/Light Blue had sucessfully Purpleized itself, and the bland had begun ("Blandmaster! March On The Bland!").   Still, people joined for a lot of the right reason's I guess, or at least did a lot of the right things once they got in.   I guess they didn't see the magazines those new ads were in.

I recall a story a few years back about the Commanding General of a Texas National Guard formation having begun his military experience as a draftee in Vietnam.   The Bundeswehr also gets a lot of their Officers and NCOs from those draftees who choose to stay on.   So, the reasons why people end up in the military, and why they stay are often different.

But back to recruiting:   You guys are right.   Our recruiting lacks CULTURE.   By that I mean a military one.   How do you make a mud and blood ad to attract grunts without scaring away the 500 series widget techs? 

Then you have the social scientists with no operational experience, who understand neither soldiers nor soldiering, telling us what type of people we should be hiring.

And they are wrong.

Thank God for Cadets, probably the only military culture most Canadians are familiar with.   If Cadets died out, we could put the whole DND budget into our present methods of recruiting and still fall below the quota.

Tom


----------



## Quiet Riot

The British had a great reality tv show called SAS are you tough enough.  They took something like 6 male and 6 female civilians with no military experience and put them through a condensed SAS course in the jungle of Borneo(sp?).  When I first saw the commercials i thought they would be really soft on them, but they weren't.  They started off with basic trainning stuff, then moved on to jungle survival and basic infantry stuff.  They also, were put through interrogation were they were put in stress postions for hours while the instructors(who were all SAS or ex-SAS) tried to get info out of them.   The didnt have to cut anyone the first 6 or so episodes because people were quitting or getting hurt too bad to continue. I think it's off the air now but it was on the history channel.


----------



## Troopasaurus

One of the big events that got me wanting to join the army was seeing Exercise Kootnay Castle a couple years ago. They had a tour of the exercise for some of the locals and showed the engineers charging up and down the river after pontoons dropped from US Chinooks. After we got a tour of the field hospital the US had set up then off to see a MGB being set up in a gravel pit. We got off the bus and got a brief introduction of what the engineers were doing before they were attacked. They were using blanks and it was a really impressive display for myself as a civilian and when the enemy threw smoke to cover their withdrawl i knew what i wanted to do. In the end I talked to an ex-cadet friend of mine who had joined and now was doing the recruiting, and here i am today.

I think that a Display kind of like an airshow would produce good results. Use lots of blanks, T-flashes, arty sims etc.


----------



## marlene

Great post Mr. Ted.     As for the CF advertising from the point of view of a civilian female my opinion is   boring - wussy and far too politically correct - not something that would entice me to want to join. What has enticed me to join is the people who are in the CF and other militaries that I have met along the way.     Most often I have met these people through sports - racing or climbing or at Comox learning to dangle from helicopters. The selling point of course being that you were getting paid to get challenged and have some fun along the way. The advertising doesn't express that at all. I remember running into a bunch of guys once on Mt. Athabaska from the British army (they were over here training) and I thought wow - nice job if you can get it. Travel and climbing a peak. So in my view ads need major changes in order to attract certain people. BUT... perhaps they don't want to attract those people.

merlane


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## PJ D-Dog

Excellent post Mr. Ted.  You should get it all together and pitch it to DND and see what happens...nothing ventured, nothing gained.

In 1997, I was working as a recruiter at CFB Gagetown and the message was much the same....very bland and lack luster.  At that time, the CF was being portrayed as a corporate extension of DND somewhat like "just another government dept".  There were no real quotas and work ended religiously at 16:30 every day.  The other recruiters were good guys, for the most part, but lacked any real motivation to go out there and get some.  It was just a job for them, nothing more, nothing less.

Later, I served as a recruiter for a a reserve unit and I litterally worked my rear end off.  The unit budget was directly tied to the number of soldiers we had on strength and therefore we needed to have as many warm bodies as we could fit through the door.  Amongst our troops, I tried to instill the notion that recruiting was everyone's responsibility and how all soldiers should try and promote the virtues of serving with everyone they came in contact.

I left the CF and joined the Marine Corps.  Last year, I spent a month working with a recruiter as part of a TD trip.  Let me tell you, 12 and 16 hour days was nothing.  Cold contacts in person at the local Wal-Mart was the rule of the day.  The Marine Corps recruiting command is the most operational recruiting organization I have ever seen.  Technically, a qualified applicant can walk in the door one day and be shipped to boot camp within a week.  Although this is not the norm, it can be done.

Marine recruiters are rated on the number of contracts they write.  Career progression is directly linked to job performance.  That is their incentive.  It's their job for 36 months.  Not all recruiters volunteers either.  Every year the selection list is made up at every command and thousands of Marines are screened and then sent off to school and then on to the street.

The recruiting system in the CF is broken.  They should take lesson from our neighbours to the south.  Those members of the halls of knowledge at DND should visit recruiting command at Quantico Va and see how it's really done.  There is nothing wrong with taking lessons from the US and adapting it to use in Canada.

My understanding right now, is that it can take up to a year to get into the CF (regular or reserve).  In the US, once you are accepted, you can set a shipping date up to a year from the time you are found qualified.  They have something called the delayed entry program (DEP).  Every recruit has to DEP in before going to boot camp.  I was in the DEP for a week before I shipped.  During this period, recruits sign a contract and are obligated to attend monthly training meeting with their recruiters and other recruits (called poolies-members of the pool of recruits).  There, they learn about the Marine Corps and prepare for the rigors of basic training...PT, military history, knowledge etc..  When they finally ship, they are mentally and physically ready to go to training.  Attrition rate is low when coming out of boot camp.

This is just an example, but the recruiting system is certainly lacking in the CF.  The needs have changed, but the system of acquisition has not.  CFRETS runs both the recruit schools and recruiting side of the CF house and for some reason there is a huge disconnect.  An operational mindset needs to be adopted.

PJ D-Dog


----------



## TCBF

VERY good post PJ.

Any CF Recruiters out there?

Tom


----------



## jc5778

Wow, some of the most articulated, and accurate posts I've read on the site in a while.  I am a strong supporter for Mr. Tom's idea for a commercial.  I'm sure it would cost the government millions to prepare.  I could probably do it for a fraction of that, and better I might add!  Does anybody know who is the direct link for recruiting adds for the CF?  Who comes up with this stuff? Who's chain do we have to rattle?   :threat:


----------



## Hgrant

awesome post from everyone. I think everyone here should be in charge of recruiting. I think we would see a huge increase in the amount of quality soldiers we receive. Not because of the money but because of the opportunity to excel and do something that not everyone can. Thanks for starting this topic


----------



## Pte. Bloggins

TCBF said:
			
		

> How do you make a mud and blood ad to attract grunts without scaring away the 500 series widget techs?



You could have both: half the ad could be what Mr. Ted described, and the other half could showcase some tech trade. The point would be to show that there are trades in the CF that don't involve mud-crawling on a daily basis.

And the grande finale would be: "Want the best of both worlds? Join the CF as a Sig Op!"  ;D  (Shameless self-promotion)


----------



## oyaguy

dirky said:
			
		

> Perhaps our youth are in a sense smarter, they see past the gimmicks of the Army.  I too am younger (not too young) and whenever i see an advertisement for any army i think...geeze, that was friggin cheesy.



I think it's not that Canadian youth are smarter, but the fact the 18-24 cohort, are the most cynical Canadians around, especially when it comes to advertising. We have been raised on it, burned by it, and when a person my age watches advertising we take it with a grain of salt. 

I remember in my University of Calgary history class, the professor was talking about the sixties and how people took to the streets. The question asked was, "What would it take for UofC students to take to streets?", nobody could answer. Why? We are cynical bastards, that's why.

So when it comes to advertising, don't bother with gimmicks, we have seen them before, and seen them done better. 

Also, try to get the voiceover guy for the Marine advertising.


----------



## Brad Sallows

If you wanted to migrate the culture of the CF away from warfighters to something more like civil servants and police, I suppose you'd start with the attraction process.


----------



## PJ D-Dog

7 - 10 days said:
			
		

> Does anybody know who is the direct link for recruiting adds for the CF?   Who comes up with this stuff? Who's chain do we have to rattle?     :threat:



To my understanding, recruiting is part of CFRETS (Canadian Forces Recruit Education and Training System) located at CFB Borden.   The advertising is produced through contract with some civilian company.   Go to the DND site and see if you can go from there.

D-Dog


----------



## jonsey

Quiet Riot said:
			
		

> The British had a great reality tv show called SAS are you tough enough.  They took something like 6 male and 6 female civilians with no military experience and put them through a condensed SAS course in the jungle of Borneo(sp?).  When I first saw the commercials i thought they would be really soft on them, but they weren't.  They started off with basic trainning stuff, then moved on to jungle survival and basic infantry stuff.  They also, were put through interrogation were they were put in stress postions for hours while the instructors(who were all SAS or ex-SAS) tried to get info out of them.   The didnt have to cut anyone the first 6 or so episodes because people were quitting or getting hurt too bad to continue. I think it's off the air now but it was on the history channel.



Yeah, they had three seasons, Scotland, Borneo and Nambia.


----------



## scm77

I only saw (and only knew about) the Borneo season.  I thought it was pretty good.  But I don't expect to be seeing "JTF2: Are You Tough Enough?" anythime soon.


----------



## Island Ryhno

"While it was still dark in the early hours of June 6, Allied paratroopers, including 450 Canadians, jumped from aircraft or landed in gliders behind the German coastal defences. Separated by gusty winds, outnumbered, and only lightly armed, they nevertheless captured a German headquarters, destroyed a key bridge, and seized an important crossroads, all the while sowing confusion and disorder within enemy ranks" The Canadian Armed Forces....Legends...Hero's...You


----------



## enfield

Recruiting has always been an interest of mine - others may want sniper or JTF, I want advertising!   8)
Anyways, some ideas I've had.

Ads alone won't do it, direct advertising needs to be closely tied to a wide ranging and ongoing promotional campaign that uses different media forms, outlets, and approaches.

1) Documentary-Style TV shows - TDV is an excellent start, but this should be expanded and brought more into the mainstream. One idea I had was to have a TV crew embed itself in a unit from the moment its tagged for deployment, through build-up, the operation, and the return and produce a multi-episode documentary series from that. Have the crew stick closely to a few characters - say, an infantry section, a coyote recce crew, the cook on the camp and maybe a medical team or something, and have each episode focus on one aspect - build up trg, or families preparing for a roto, or a day in the life of a section commander, whatever.

2) Expose-style "insider" shows, say let a Global or CBC crew do a special, or a series of specials, on JTF2. Or, expand the concept and called it "The Canadian Forces you never knew existed" and do JTF, Pathfinder, Clearance Divers, etc. Of course opsec an dpersec would be observed, but I believe that allowing access to something like JTF would allow the CF to call a lot of shots in the production of the show. 

With the above two ideas, my premise is that we want the media to do the work for us. And the public needs to be better educated about the Army in general. 

3) Appearances by proffessional display teams (display, not recruiting) at events, universities, across Canada, a mobile high-profile team. Weapons, vehicles, demonstrations of various skills. I believe the Brits use such teams to great effectiveness. The idea is to give a human face to the CF beyond someone answering questions behind a desk. 

4) Continue the promotion of exercises with the media, get local attention, the usual stuff, which I think the CF has done a fairly good job so far. 

5) And finally, the recruiting ads... Essential to the campaign, as they tie it all down. 
One concept: a soldier sits on a stool, plain background, wearing DEUs, medals - a 'poster person'. I picture a series of these ads, using a ariety of ranks and experiences to appeal to different demographics -  for example, an older, rough Warrant or a young, hardcore Cpl-type. They would give a brief description of their careers - courses and deployments really, emphasizing how tough, challenging the Army is. Fade out to short videos showing whats being described - Jump course, Medak Pocket, East Timor, whatever. Tough training, exciting operations in foreign place you only hear of on the news, and responsibility all achieved by a young age is the main message. Simplicity and capturing the audience with impressive resumes is the key. Low hype.

Second concept: Keep it to the point, use  images, videos, and music to make a relatively short high-intensity ad. Fast paced cool looking scenes, music that gets the average young person pumped up - and then just a CF logo, a phone number, and a webpage. Maybe even make it a quick historical build up, from Vimy to Afghanistan. No voice over, no talking, no descriptions. Just enough for a 17 yr old to "that looks cool!"
The idea with these ads is to get them interested, not give them a rundown of options and opportunities. Once their in the door, its half the battle.

Two questions for the forum - what do people think of making a stint as a recruiter a requirement for promotion, as the USMC does? And any ideas for a new, better Army/CF catch-phrase?


----------



## pbi

> Two questions for the forum - what do people think of making a stint as a recruiter a requirement for promotion, as the USMC does?



IMHO we definitely need to something for the profile of this duty in the Regular Army. In a volunteer force, the quality of our recruiters is vital. While I have seen a some excellent people who set a fine example, I think that too often this is not the case, and some people are sent to CFRG becuse "we have to fill the vacancy".

I agree fully with the USMC approach, which combines selectivity for staff with extreme  pressure to produce recruits but a clear reward for a job well done.

Cheers.


----------



## winchable

Watched a documentary on Marine recruiters.
Extreeeemely motivated.
They have a quota system, which they aren't supposed to (and in this case didn't) cheat, as well as a big gunny breathing down their necks.

When the end of the month was approaching they were standing in the street asking people if they wanted to join!


----------



## Block 1

what about different levels of recruitment  

For example those that want to serve as a tech and those that want to serve as a solider. Now all soldiers will get the basics Basic Military Qualification , Soldiers Qualification, then Trade training. So they can deploy no change there.  

The point being, you would (may get more people that want to be there) One benefit would be that you would not have to talk people into being a soldier. You would be able to use â Å“ 90% of the population need not apply to the infantry only the strongest need applyâ ?. Instead of saying  go for it for three years then change trades to a engineer, electrician, carpenter, LCIS, what ever. Obviously in the past we have been misleading the population when they apply. Now not in all cases but some. And yes I know this for a fact.    :soldier:


----------



## pbi

Block1: the idea of soldier vs tradesman has been debated at length in a number of other threads on this site. There seems to be a pretty strong consensus here that in a small, expeditionary force such as ours, which operates in all sorts of dangerous and unpredictable places, everybody must be a soldier first. There is no place in the Army for people who are not able to do that. I am afraid that the recruiting system you propose would just aggravate the problem we already have, and which the US Army is working hard to correct in its own ranks after its experiences in Afgh and Iraq. The USMC have always known this and have done well by it.

Cheers


----------



## civvy3840

Last night I saw another recruiting add on tv. It showed a guy in front of some type of computer and another guy said strong proud  today's Canadian forces. BORING!!


----------



## Love793

As a recruiter, I have to give credit to the marines.  They do a excellent job when it comes down to attraction.  The USMC realises out of necessity, that they have to get the best bang for their buck.  Because the USN controls the USMC purse strings, they're forced to use the direct method, including approaching people in malls and Walmarts.  In the US this sort of thing works, as the majority of the American people fully support the military.

In Canada, if I as a recruiter actively chase "contacts" through a mall, or start recruiting in Zellers, I'd probably be arrested and trespassed from the property.  A couple of years ago, a unnamed large University in Windsor Ontario, kicked a CFRC Recruiter out, because a career student complained that they where intimidating students.  The recruiter was actually there as part of a career fair for women, and the student is the president of the universities chapter of the Communist Party.  It made the Windsor Star, and a huge squawk was made in the local editorials about how this kid was getting away with too much bs and other things.  However it still shows what would happen, if we use a aggressive approach.

As for our advertising, unfortunately we are controlled by the treasury board, as to what we can say and put in a ad.  Because the government refuses to acknowledge that Soldiers are first and foremost Warriors, we can not advertise that, so we're stuck with the "Warm and Fuzzy" Ads.  The only way to change that is at election time.


----------



## Infanteer

We should do what the Americans do and threaten to cut funding to a University if it does not allow the Military on campus.


----------



## Love793

Infanteer said:
			
		

> We should do what the Americans do and threaten to cut funding to a University if it does not allow the Military on campus.



I agree, and I also believe we should cut contracts with companies who don't allow reservists go away on Exs, crses, taskings and ops.


----------



## enfield

Most universities and colleges that I'm aware of in BC have anti-military policies, at least in student-run activities - university papers will not carry military ads, the student union will not allow military activities or support, etc. A little disturbing. I don't believe these policies have the general support of the students, but they're indicative of the types of people in student government.


----------



## Pieman

> Most universities and colleges that I'm aware of in BC have anti-military policies, at least in student-run activities - university papers will not carry military ads, the student union will not allow military activities or support, etc. A little disturbing. I don't believe these policies have the general support of the students, but they're indicative of the types of people in student government.



This was the on the cover page of the university Calgary student run news paper not too long ago:

http://gauntlet.ucalgary.ca/largecover.php?Date=2005-02-03

I never went to university in BC, but have been to a couple others in Canada. I went to career fairs where the CF had booths and were busy talking to people. I also saw them set up in booth in a hallway and also seemed to be well received. If the student unions were trying to block CF involvement on those campuses, they were doing a poor job. Are there really universities that have 'anti-military' policies? Far as I know, they would be treated just like any other external organization when dealing with the University.


----------



## Jarnhamar

> I agree, and I also believe we should cut contracts with companies who don't allow reservists go away on Exs, crses, taskings and ops.



As much as I would enjoy this I disagree with it.

Correct me if i'm wrong but i don't think that rule encompasses american reservists who are attending week-end or summer training does it?   I was under the assumption that it comes into effect when said reserve *regiment* gets activated and deploys.

In Canada reserves do not deploy as a regiment and reservists surely aren't forced to go overseas or attend summer training.

IF a Canadian reserve regiment was called up to a sort of active duty (god can you imagine the backlash, administrative headaches and crying?) I would understand the need to protect a civilians jobs but as it is, i don't really see a requirement for it.

 It would be nice to be able to attend summer training or take a year off work and be guarenteed a job when you came back but were not set up like the states.
Not to mention i can see people totally taking advantage of that rule.


----------



## enfield

Love793 said:
			
		

> I agree, and I also believe we should cut contracts with companies who don't allow reservists go away on Exs, crses, taskings and ops.



Ironically enough, from what I've seen Federal and Provincial givernments, police forces, etc., are as bad as any other employers. Sometimes worse (always exceptions of course).

I'm curious about the role of the T-board in influencing CF recruiting. How does it do so? Do they have veto power? Who's interest are they supposedly representing?


----------



## ZipperHead

I agree with TCBF (mainky because I respect my elders  ;D) about cadets being one of the most effective recruiting tools that the CF has. My wife and I both met through cadets (ahhhhh!!!!! :-[), and we both liked what we did with cadets, and joined.

The problem with cadets nowadays (and I doubt it has changed since '99, when I worked as a "Training Advisor" at the Whitehorse cadet camp) is that it has become Boy/Girl Scouts in OD. The PC police have infiltrated what was a pretty kick-ass organization, and neutered it. They can't even call the combat clothing "combats". The cbt shirt is a "tunic", cbt pants are "trousers", and the cbt jacket is a "4 seasons jacket". No mention of anything combat related (ammo, wpns, enemy, etc) in their version of Battle Procedure (knocks out about 5 steps.... ruined me for about 3 years after, as I had to "unlearn" the cadet version to get back into the real version). There was a British cadet on exchange who was fairly disgusted with the sissy-fication of the whole thing, compared to what they do in the UK, and I didn't disagree with him. My understanding is that some mommy's and daddy's didn't like the training that their kids were receiving, and complained that the cadet system was trying to create killers, a la the Hitler Youth. I can say with little exageration that I learned far more about weapons handling, fieldcraft, map & compass, drill and even leadership in cadets than I have in the Regular force. It definitely prepared me for basic training, and gave me a huge advantage over the guys who never heard of a C1 before walking into a recruiting center (I fired the FN C1, C2 and M16A2 as a cadet..... I think that the largest bore rifle an "average" cadet fires now is the Lee Enfield with .22 cal  insert). Don't get me wrong, I still think that cadets still learn a lot of useful skills there (like picking fights on the internet with guys that weigh twice as much as them  :threat: when somebody makes fun of them  ;D), but a lot of the things that were basically "entry level" skills for life in the army aren't there any more. For the time I spent in cadets (5 years, 4 summer camps) I got 6 months toward my first incentive, which pissed off the guys coming in directly from civvy street.....

I'm in agreement with all of the others here that the recruiting campaign is fairly weak, and does little to bring in people hungry for adventure or action. It seems to appeal to the people that were presidents of the chess club at school, not the miscreants hanging out behind the metal shop, smoking and joking. When I went through basic, they sat us around in a circle, a la "Stripes" and asked why we joined. We had the usual (cadets, my dad served, etc). We had one guy who was given the choice between jail and the army. He ended up in E Bty (Para) in Pet. It seems we're attracting too many twinkies, fed a steady diet of Counter-Strike on the computer or X-Box (I call the new soldiers coming in "Generation X-Box"), they think they are tough because they listen to gangsta rap and speak in ebonics, and too many obviously had the option of NOT partaking in Phys Ed. It was embarassing to have unit PT in Edmonton, and when we broke it into over-30 year old vs under-30's (gasp!!!! age-ism.... haven't we learned anything?!?!?!), the over 30's won 95% of the games, be it soccer, football, etc. I'm not sure if that was a case of "Old age and treachery beats youth and skill every time..." or just that the majority of young guys can't catch a football unless it involves pushing a green button on a controller... And I'm not one of those guys in the army on a "sports scholarship". I should be thankful that these new young guys make me look somewhat like a jock  ^-^

Why they don't use footage of ops in Afghanistan or naval boarding parties, or the like. I know that they need to target certain trades that are hurting, but like I've said many times before, there is no point in using the false advertising approach (every unit is 33% female, 33% black/asian/aboriginal, and 33% white male), because once people are in the door, and they realize it's not what they thought, 3 years later they're gone. Then people scratch their head and wonder why the attrition rate is off the scale. 

I haven't been in a recruiting center in 17 years, but I shudder to think what one looks like now. Their was a guy in our unit in Edmonton that ended up with a job in recruiting in Edmonton, and, to be polite, he wasn't exactly someone I'd put on a recruiting poster (and no, he wasn't a crewman!!!!). It disturbs me to think that people walk in (the average civvie), see him, and say "I can do that!!!", and I don't mean that in a good way. BTW, the guy in question is a good guy, but hardly the person that I would place in the job (language profile was the key for him).

The recruiting ad that I've seen that I like the most is the Royal Marine one, with the guy struggling in the underwater obstacle, as it emphasises the uniqueness of the unit, that 99.99% need not apply. Whereas ours seems to be "Come one, come all, and don't forget to bring Grandma!!!".

With the new CDS on board, with the "soldier first" mentality that is coming back, I hope things will change, and we'll start going for the adventurous types, who want a mental and physical challenge, because I think a lot of those people have been scared away by the huggy-kissy ads, in particular the gung-ho X-Games type of women that, whether or not people want them there, would be better suited in the combat arms than some of the one's that get sweet talked (ie. lied to by a recruiter) into the CA, that probably wouldn't have made into yesteryears Air Force, let alone shouldn't be in todays army.

With all the computer skills that people in this forum have, someone should put together an "unofficial" recruiting ad that could make it's rounds and get the right audience excited about the army. I can see a few parody ads floating through my head right now, and those could be effective, but could also be detrimental. Things like "The Blair Witch Project" got big because of the internet, so an edgy, almost counter-culture (well counter to the huggy kissy bland ads, anyway) type of thing that defies people, saying "you're not good enough for the army, and if you think you are, you're gonna have to prove it!".

Anyway, lots of good ideas floating around. Hopefully somebody in Ottawa, in the Puzzle Palace, is reading this and might spring into action. Who am I kidding?!?!  :

Al


----------



## bossi

Along the lines of "perception is reality" ... I guess it's the old story:  "You get what you pay for, and ... you recruit what you advertise for"
(i.e. if you tell potential recruits it's a job, they think it's a job - if you tell them it's like nothing they've ever experienced ... you get the picture)

1.  "It's not a job, it's an adventure." (USN)

2.  "Nobody wants to fight, but somebody needs to know how." ... and ... "YOU are our best recruiter." (USMC)

3.  "We do more before breakfast than most people do all day." (US Army, loosely paraphrased)

4.  "Aim High.  Air Force." (USAF)

5. a. "The Canadian Forces offer rewarding full-time careers in the Navy, Army and Air Force." (CF www.dnd.ca) 

5. b. "The Reserve Force offers exciting part-time employment opportunities in the Naval, Army, Air and Communication Reserves." (CF www.dnd.ca)

5. c. "The Department of National Defence offers rewarding and challenging careers across Canada and abroad." (CF www.dnd.ca)

Anyway ... just in case anybody missed this article ...



> Military attracts violent louts - study
> 
> By CP
> 
> OTTAWA -- Young Canadians interested in joining the military tend to lack life goals, feel alienated and accept violence to achieve ends, says an internal army study obtained by The Canadian Press. Some findings in the 80-page report suggest army recruiters should carefully screen the 5,000 additional soldiers they plan to hire over the next five years.
> 
> People interested in a career with the Canadian Forces tend to be "lacking in life goals and feel alienated from society and its values," says the document, co-authored by three senior officers.
> 
> "They are attracted to violence more than the average member of Canadian society and accept violence as a legitimate means of getting what they want."
> 
> Generally, those interested in joining the Forces also tend to be "somewhat timid in the face of change and preferred traditional categories of identity by race, gender, and nationality," says the survey. "As a result, they may resist affirmative action initiatives."
> 
> The observations are contained in a draft copy of the study, Canada's Soldiers: Military Ethos and Canadian Values in the 21st Century Army. The attitudes of people interested in joining the military were extracted from pollster CROP Inc.'s annual survey of Canadians. The research was also based on 60 questions to 1,297 regular soldiers and 440 reservists.
> 
> There are about 19,500 active soldiers and 15,000 army reservists in Canada. The Canadian Forces survey's 26% response rate - about 7,300 were distributed - was considered low but acceptable. The army, expected to take on a greater role in international peacemaking and disaster relief, is likely to get the bulk of the new recruits under new government policy.
> 
> While the report suggests attitudes "mellow" with age, it paints a picture of potential recruits who are spoiled, petulant and who "defer to external codes and rules" but look after their own self-interest:
> 
> - Those exploring a military career are not so much interested in serving as in "being someone and belonging to something."
> 
> - They tend to pursue happiness before duty, give personal life priority over work, and in ethical dilemmas tend to favour personal interests.
> 
> - They want to own status symbols and look good, and need to "break out of their isolation and share the collective emotions of a group."
> 
> Col. Mike Capstick, a co-author of the report, says not all those who expressed an interest in the military would have signed on, nor would all who signed on have been accepted, survived training or unit integration. "We know that some of them are released because they're just not suitable for military service," said Capstick.
> 
> Some characteristics of potential recruits are similar to those of serving soldiers.
> 
> "Survey results suggest that soldiers tend to be traditionalists in regard to gender and minorities," it says.


----------



## BDTyre

Enfield said:
			
		

> Most universities and colleges that I'm aware of in BC have anti-military policies, at least in student-run activities - university papers will not carry military ads, the student union will not allow military activities or support, etc. A little disturbing. I don't believe these policies have the general support of the students, but they're indicative of the types of people in student government.



My university's student-run newspaper had a cover feature of a recce skills competition about two years ago.  The two guys who covered it had a lot of fun and in the end were very sympathetic to the CF.  They were even a little disappointed they couldn't be decked out in combats.


----------



## ab136

Personally I love the Canadian ads,

_"The Canadian Forces offer rewarding full-time careers in the Navy, Army and Air Force." 
 "The Reserve Force offers exciting part-time employment opportunities in the Naval, Army, Air and Communication Reserves." 
 "The Department of National Defence offers rewarding and challenging careers across Canada and abroad." _
No interpretation needed, you get it or you don't want to get it.

I also love the American army one,
"We do more before breakfast than most people do all day."
I wish we could adopt that one ;D


----------



## ab136

I like that saying. Makes me want to snap to attention and stick out my chest


----------



## NMPeters

Having just come from a recruiting advertising conference the last two days, I can answer Enfield's question. The Treasury Board plays a HUGE role in CF advertising. In fact, it plays a huge role in advertising for any government department. I'm not going to get into it here because it's mind boggling, but the process for placing an ad is absolutely horrendous. But that's not all of it folks. Privvy Council plays a big role in the advertising too. In fact, the ads must get approval from Privvy Council before they are released. So, it's not DND that is producing these bland ads, it's the Government who is dictating what the ads can and cannot depict. They will even go so far as to say what the "flavour of the month is" with respect to targeting the different minority groups. This conference was a real eye opener to me. So when a department is stuck with what it can and cannot say in its ads, and what it can and cannot show in its ads, then there's not much choice but to fall back on the "pay" thing. We are looked upon as "peacekeepers" by the country and that's how the government wants to sell us. It's not us wanting to sell it that way.


----------



## pbi

The President of Treasury Board is Mr Reg Alcock, our Liberal MP for the part of Winnipeg I live in. Before being appointed to his current office, he was well known here as a "military-friendly" Liberal, who was seen at unit and base mess functions, and was regarded as an ally in our struggle to get Winnipeg's two aging armouries upgraded or replaced.Our HQ gave him a detailed briefing on the concept. I would be surprised to hear that he was now running the board with an anti-military slant, particularly in view of this Govt's apparent emphasis on defence spending.

Did you actually hear him, or others from TB, state that keen, aggressive, soldiering-oriented ads would not be acceptable? Did anyone show them examples of USMC or US Army ads? I can guarantee you that those two services have equally strong direction about "equal opportunity" recruiting advertisements: I have seen USMC ads with women and minorities, and the US Army is even moer oriented along those lines. Are we actually proposing good ads that are getting shot down? Or are we not even bothering, on the assumption that the TB or PC or somebody will trash them?

Cheers.


----------



## a_majoor

I was in Ottawa last week on training, and hooked up with some airforce types to see the town. We went into that big shopping centre beside "Disneyland" to take in a movie, and the theater played "The Ad". 

The other patrons were a bit upset about the three of us roaring with laughter in the middle ailse, but as one guy gasped "What force is that?". I mean, showing LAVs screaming cross country, artillery blazing away, CF-18s, ships....They must have culled file films from more than a decades worth of exercises, although oddly, no OPs.

Imagine what the average civvie would have seen, a large, active, well supported force. Now he/she goes into CFRC, passes through St. Jean where fearsom section commanders are not allowed to look at the top of the lockers and there are virtually no penalties for failure; spends some time in the Borden Holding Battalion waiting for courses, does the Battleschool (big institutional shock for most recruits), then finally gets to the Battalion. The vehicle hangers are empty due to whole fleet management, training consists of morning PT and "death by powerpoint" (I exaggerate, but only a bit), and even going to the range is a once a year occasion......Do you really think Pte Bloggins has an incentive to stay, or tell their friends to "come on out"?

I know there is another thread about how recruiting ads are "theamed", but this is a really counterproductive waste of money. Show the reality, not a fairy tale.


----------



## Horse_Soldier

pbi,

Having worked in our wonderful Federal Public Service ever since I hung up my RegF beret, I've come to learn that the problem in this kind of situation is not at the political level but at the bureaucracy level.   The federal bureaucracy is very powerful and pretty much determines what will be presented to the politicians and how it will be presented.   If said politician does not cut through the crap and give clear marching orders, it won't happen.   That's the procedural blockage.    The other factor that comes into play is the bureaucracy's mindset, especially at Treasury Board.   Most public servants view the military as civil servants who wear snazzy uniforms - that's when they think of the military at all.   There is absolutely no real grasp of the fact that the CF exists to do nasty things like shoot people, that - plus the damned peacekeeper image we fostered a few years back will have the bureaucrats say no to the kind of advertising we should be playing.   In this country, one should not underestimate the power of the gnomes in the business suits.   I had to deal with enough TB types when I was at the puzzle palace.   The only way to get around them is to have a conduit straight into the minister's office.  A lot of the problems the taxpaying public mistakenly blames on the politicos is actually the fault of the bureaucracy.  There have been some good essays written about how a strong civil service can become a threat to a liberal democracy.  If I can find them, I'll post them.


----------



## Infanteer

NMPeters said:
			
		

> Having just come from a recruiting advertising conference the last two days, I can answer Enfield's question. The Treasury Board plays a HUGE role in CF advertising. In fact, it plays a huge role in advertising for any government department. I'm not going to get into it here because it's mind boggling, but the process for placing an ad is absolutely horrendous. But that's not all of it folks. Privvy Council plays a big role in the advertising too. In fact, the ads must get approval from Privvy Council before they are released. So, it's not DND that is producing these bland ads, it's the Government who is dictating what the ads can and cannot depict. They will even go so far as to say what the "flavour of the month is" with respect to targeting the different minority groups. This conference was a real eye opener to me. So when a department is stuck with what it can and cannot say in its ads, and what it can and cannot show in its ads, then there's not much choice but to fall back on the "pay" thing. We are looked upon as "peacekeepers" by the country and that's how the government wants to sell us. It's not us wanting to sell it that way.



Thanks for the skinny, Ms Peters.

Now, does anyone else feel that *"In fact, the ads must get approval from Privvy Council before they are released. So, it's not DND that is producing these bland ads, it's the Government who is dictating what the ads can and cannot depict. They will even go so far as to say what the "flavour of the month is" with respect to targeting the different minority groups."* represents an unhealthy malaise in regards to civil-military relations.  As I recall, recruiting and training professional soldiers (and by extention, how we recruit them) is a duty that a professional military, because of its expertise, is supposed to carry out.  When you have bureaucrats or politicians interfering in specifics, essentially "becoming their own Chief of Staff", you get bad juju.


----------



## civvy3840

ab136 what saying??


----------



## ab136

Strong, proud.  Today's Canadian forces. (the post before mine)


----------



## civvy3840

Ya I'm not even in yet and whenever I hear something good about the army it fills me with pride, and if it's something bad I will be quick to argue.


----------



## PJ D-Dog

Ghost778 said:
			
		

> Correct me if i'm wrong but i don't think that rule encompasses american reservists who are attending week-end or summer training does it?   I was under the assumption that it comes into effect when said reserve *regiment* gets activated and deploys.



Actually, a reservist will be protected under the employment legislation for mobilization and annual training.  Once he is informed that he is being mobilized or that annual training has been scheduled, he needs to advise his employer so that arrangements can be made.  They usually get a warning order well in advance.  His employer has to let him attend and can't fire him.  There's probably more to it than that but that is the essence of it.

PJ D-Dog


----------



## The_Falcon

I remember the ads that they are showing now, when they first aired about 4-5 years ago.  They were terrible then, and terrible now.  There were another set of ads that played in theaters in the late 90's (97-98) that I though were great.  They started with showing the treads of tank chewing up the ground, the rumble of the engine reverberated through the theater.  It showed a couple of cool army stuff (including if I am not mistaken, paratroopers jumping from a herc).  It end with a pair of muddy boots and the question "Can you will these boots?"  then cut to the slogan and logo at the time "YOUR PRIDE, YOUR FUTURE, YOUR MOVE" CANADIAN ARMED FORCES.  I though it was pretty effective.  Maybe we can bring it back and update it a bit.  The latest USN add is quite amazing, even though it shows mostly spec ops kinda stuff, it has a great hard rock soundtrack (Godsmack I think) and the line "If someone wrote a book about your life, would anyone want to read it?"  Thats the kind of stuff that interests people and grabs thier attention and say whoa, maybe I should join.


----------



## pbi

> The only way to get around them is to have a conduit straight into the minister's office.



Point taken. 

Cheers.


----------



## winchable

Would there be any loopholes, or would it possible without loopholes, for a non-government ogranisation made up of like minded (retired servicemen) people to fund and produce commercials for recruiting?

It would be worth it if they managed to produce one, solid recruiting commercial and see if the government would follow suit or if the public would force the government to follow suit for some reason.


----------



## NMPeters

Che,

So long as those people are not Honouraries, since the Honouraries have a uniform and are appointed by the MND and, in effect, represent the units of which they are a part I don't see why not. Now that means you're going to have to find these people with a crap-load of money to blow away because advertising is hugely expensive, not to mention the development of the ads.


----------



## Jarnhamar

How long is annual training for american reserves?


I would imagine reservests cannot use that clause to take off on week-end excersises.


Our recruiting message is pretty week but you wanna know what else is weak? The mentality of many of our soldiers.
9 times out of 10 when i mentioned to someone that i was trying to transfer to the reg force infantry they would say
are you retarded?
are you fucking stupid?
whats wrong with you?
why not go for a trade?

I'll never understand that mentality.
I'm willing to quit a $21/hour job (40 hours a week) to join the infantry and I doubt these people would be infantry soldiers even if they were paid three times as much.
Horrible mentality


----------



## a_majoor

Someone with the inside track on recruiting should set this idea straight, but Reserve units have lots of skilled people within their own ranks: what is to stop them from creating a short recruiting video which can be looped and played at their recruiting stands at job fairs, malls, schools etc. which *do* show the "hard core" stuff, has a theam like *"Are you up for the challenge?"* and otherwise ignores the "quota of the month" or "warm fuzzy peacekeepers" theams of the "Official" ads?


----------



## Britney Spears

> which do show the "hard core" stuff,



What "hard core" stuff? This is the militia we're talking about right?  ???  ;D



On topic:

Now, I haven't seen too many of the ads out there, but I never gave it much thought, since I had reconcilled them with the fact that our main manpower shortage being  in the tech trades, and those ads I've seen  DO seem to do a fair job of targetting the types of people(techies, specialists) we are seeking. A simplistic viewpoint(and probably full of holes too), I must admit, but really, I don't think 3VP is experiencing a lack of earger applicants at the moment, so why not target the ads more specificaly?


----------



## MdB

I don't know if it's been mentioned, but I really like the soldier profile on goarmy.com. I think CF should implement such a feature on their recruiting website. It gives you a glimp of what he/she does and it's really up front.

Cheers,


----------



## PJ D-Dog

Ghost778 said:
			
		

> How long is annual training for american reserves?
> 
> 
> I would imagine reservests cannot use that clause to take off on week-end excersises.



Actually, they can but they have to have made arrangements with their employer prior.  In a normal reserve unit, they know months in advance when the training is scheduled.  It's the reservist's responsibility to advise his employer.  If he missess a drill, there is not real excuse for it except his own fault and he can be charged.

Annual training is normally two weeks a year but some units go for longer.  You can also go on course under this clause as well.  For example:  if you join the SMCR (select Marine Corps reserve), you will go to boot camp in Parris Island or San Diego for the same 13 weeks as all other Marines.  You will also attend the same schools as active duty Marines and then return to the civilian world.  If you had a job before you joined, that job has to still be there for you.

D-Dog


----------



## PPCLI Guy

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Thanks for the skinny, Ms Peters.
> 
> Now, does anyone else feel that *"In fact, the ads must get approval from Privvy Council before they are released. So, it's not DND that is producing these bland ads, it's the Government who is dictating what the ads can and cannot depict. They will even go so far as to say what the "flavour of the month is" with respect to targeting the different minority groups."* represents an unhealthy malaise in regards to civil-military relations.



Or more specifically, a wider malaise with the way in which the instruments of governement are wielded - and only by a select few.  As difficult as it is to be a soldier some days, it must be soul destroying to be a well-intenioned member of the Public Sertvice, and dare I say it a backbencher MP in this climate of extreme centralisation of power.



> As I recall, recruiting and training professional soldiers (and by extention, how we recruit them) is a duty that a professional military, because of its expertise, is supposed to carry out.  When you have bureaucrats or politicians interfering in specifics, essentially "becoming their own Chief of Staff", you get bad juju.



"War is too important to be left to the Generals" probably applies here - it is a long-standing mindset.

Dave


----------



## pbi

> So long as those people are not Honouraries, since the Honouraries have a uniform and are appointed by the MND and, in effect, represent the units of which they are a part I don't see why not. Now that means you're going to have to find these people with a crap-load of money to blow away because advertising is hugely expensive, not to mention the development of the ads.



I have never seen these conditions deter a determined Honourary: AFAIK they are not subject to the Code of Service Discipline, so they are free to take action as they see fit. As well, I would not assume that there are Hons or senate members out there who do not have either a) a lot of money (and I mean a LOT of money...)   or;   b) considerable influence. This applies both to the Hons/senate in the Res and the Cols of the Regt and other "Friends of the Regt" in the RegF.

As long as the ad was produced completely outside the grasp of DND, and no persons subject to the Code or MND's direction were involved in producing and displaying it, I fail to see what action could be taken other than foot stamping and writing nasty letters.

Cheers


----------



## GDawg

Pieman said:
			
		

> This was the on the cover page of the university Calgary student run news paper not too long ago:
> 
> http://gauntlet.ucalgary.ca/largecover.php?Date=2005-02-03
> 
> I never went to university in BC, but have been to a couple others in Canada. I went to career fairs where the CF had booths and were busy talking to people. I also saw them set up in booth in a hallway and also seemed to be well received. If the student unions were trying to block CF involvement on those campuses, they were doing a poor job. Are there really universities that have 'anti-military' policies? Far as I know, they would be treated just like any other external organization when dealing with the University.


I am working my ass off to fill less than 10 BMQ slots, in a city with 1 million people!

I am the goofy looking white guy on the cover there. I managed to get members of my unit who were deploying on OP DANACA featured in all 3 major post secondary papers simultaneously in Calgary, for free!

 I am having such a hard time breaching the post secondary crowd, I think the overall CF recruitment campaign has polluted the atmosphere for all the little guys, like individual reserve units, that and an almost complete lack of understanding of the PRes on the part of average Canadians.

They really ought to teach kids the difference between RegF and PRes in high school CALM (Career and life management classes), not as a CFRC presentation for them to glaze over during, but as a small part of the curriculum, put in in the text book or notes so they can reference it at their leisure. 
 All it has to say, really, is " RegF = Full time, see the world, tons of opprotunities, good pension"  and "PRes = Part time, voluntary obligation, escape the ordinary" Of course thats over simplified, but from my experience the average person doesn't know that much!

I've got a few non conventional ideas for recruiting attractions on the go,  you really have to out-flank the expected (that is, the general CF recruiting laclustre appearance)  in this job. You have to prove to people that we aren't just civil servants in relish colored clothes!

"746 Communications Squadron, Calgary's High Tech Warriors!" How does that sound?


----------



## ZipperHead

Some good points GDawg.

There is an overall lack of understanding of the CF by the average Canadian. I don't feel the CF (in the past particularly) showed the people of Canada what we were all about, from cadets all the way up to the JTF. So much of what people _*think*_ they know about the CF comes from American culture and media. I remember reading an letter to the editor in the Fredericton Gleaner about 8 or 9 years ago, and somebody said the the Canadian military should pay taxes. At first I thought they meant the organization of the CF, like Irving, or Canadian Tire paying taxes, but then I realized this person meant Canadian soldiers. Well, I've been paying taxes for some time now. Maybe I should ask for it back.....

What I've thought in the past that should be done, is for the CF to print a purty little glossy flyer and carpet bomb the country with it. It could contain info about the difference between Res and Reg, what the role of the cadet system is, employment opportunities, educational opportunities, pay scales, mention of deployments (huggy kissy peacekeeping ones, and more recent NATO one), etc, etc. If people want to bin the flyer, let 'em, but I think a good chunk of people would read it and say "Wow, I didn't know that!!!". Maybe they'd be less likely to spit on me when I'm in DEU..... As for the cost, I'm sure it would probably be made up in a better quality of informed recruits signing up, as it almost seems to be a secret society, like the Masons, and people are afraid to walk into a recruiting center, as though they'll be clubbed over the head and sent off to Fallujah. 

I still think a good "underground" recruiting campaign, outside of "official" channels would make an impact on the wired generation of soldiers. Those lame ones they have now probably make a lot of people snicker and disregard the idea of joining. And I don't mean a lot of shite false advertising. Good videos or stills of people doing their job, with the cool stuff at the fore, but also showing what a career in the CF can mean, with travel, meeting people, being (somewhat) independent  ;D, and making a difference in Canada and the world.

Al


----------



## TCBF

You would have thought that all of the vets and other ex military types would have spoken up more, but there was almost a conspiracy of silence unless you were related to one.  

I started high school in the late sixties, and not ONCE did I see a teacher who fought in WW2 talk about his experiences, or wear medals to a school rememberance day ceremony.  

They certainly accomplished much after the war, in all fields of endeavor, but the lessons learned regarding maintaining a strong military were not re-enforced.  They did not - colectively - keep their fingers on the pulse.

They flushed it, and they flushed us too.  I would have vets ask me how I liked the Bren gun or the Sten gun... in the SEVENTIES.  No idea of the current state of the military.  They just kept voting for the folks their parents told them to vote for, and that was that.  

I can't get upset.  After all, they survived the depression and won WW2 and Korea.  But those alive today may be left with the distinct impression that winning the war did not mean winning the peace, and are wondering where that great country called Canada went.

Tom


----------



## Brad Sallows

I had a high school teacher who talked about his war experiences on Remebrance Day.  Mind, he had been in the Hungarian army, on the eastern front.


----------



## ArmyRick

It almost seems as though we need a major shift in attitude for our entire society. Buts thats another discussion.

Since the army is going through transformation maybe recruiting can go through one as well and why the hell are we subject to all these other government departments? DND has plenty of its own watchdogs to police us (in terms of what PR or recruiting material we put out) and look after us.


----------



## Spartan

I'm just wondering if the problems of recruiting could be extended internally - of all the horror stories I've heard about and from people I know have had horrendously long waits and processes in tranfering from PRes to Reg. Over a year plus from what I can gather is SOP? That to me really makes me wonder as a reservist who is considering in the future to transfer to RegF.


----------



## Infanteer

Steve99 said:
			
		

> The absolute worst example of Canadian forces recruiting was in my school.   For careers class we had a member of the CF come in, to discuss it with us.
> 
> What a joke. The worst part, the LADY told us strait up she did not want to see enlist in the Reg. Force as combat arms.   She made it seem like anyone who signs up as a grunt is only selling themselves short.



Are you sure about this, did she explicitly say "you are selling yourself short in the combat arms".  If so, speak to you councillor and find out the name of the recruiter that visited your school and PM it to me.  At the very least, I would like to pass an email onto the respective CFRC about how I sold myself short.

This is not on.


----------



## ArmyRick

what is the name of the recruiter who said this and rank please?


----------



## pbi

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Are you sure about this, did she explicitly say "you are selling yourself short in the combat arms".   If so, speak to you councillor and find out the name of the recruiter that visited your school and PM it to me.   At the very least, I would like to pass an email onto the respective CFRC about how I sold myself short.
> 
> This is not on.



And e-mail me, too. I'll send it straight to the Commander of CFRG. The CLS might be interested to know as well. This type of idiocy (if correct...) reminds me of the guy who recruited me. Fortunately, I knew a bit about the Army after eight years in the Reserve, so I was barely able to sit quietly with a straight face as he explained to me that I would be able to work towards my degree by taking night courses while going through the Infantry School. Yeah--right. If this is thesort of thing that is going on, we really need to do a better job of screening the people we send out as recruiters.

Cheers


----------



## kincanucks

A kid comes on here and recollects something from 2-3 years ago that a recruiter may or may not have said and you want to e-mail the entire food chain and launch the QRF.   And the recruiter probably doesn't even work in recruiting anymore.   I'm not making light of a serious screw-up but lets put on our adult thinking caps and put it all into perspective.   Cheers.

PS People like that don't last long before they are found out.


----------



## condor888000

Steve99 said:
			
		

> One thing I should probably also mention though is that while in grade 9, the last year for the grade 13's their was a decent presentation in the main lobby, I don't remember it that well though.



I'm wondering if this guy is serious. Or if he's got his timeline mixed up. It should be one of the two. 
I was in grade 9 the year both 12's and 13's graduated, and I'm in grade 11 now, last I checked you graduated after grade 12.....


----------



## pbi

kincanucks said:
			
		

> A kid comes on here and recollects something from 2-3 years ago that a recruiter may or may not have said and you want to e-mail the entire food chain and launch the QRF.   And the recruiter probably doesn't even work in recruiting anymore.   I'm not making light of a serious screw-up but lets put on our adult thinking caps and put it all into perspective.   Cheers.
> 
> PS People like that don't last long before they are found out.



That's why I added the caveat "_if correct_". However, I stand by my concern over selection for recruiting duty. Over the years I have seen some excellent people go there, but I have seen a number of people who simply should not be in the public eye as representatives and recruiters. In the Combat Arms, at least, recruiting duty holds a rather low profile and is not, at least AFAIK, in much demand as a posting choice. We need to do something about that, so that the best we have in the Cbt Arms will be motivated to go out and recruit the best.

Cheers


----------



## kincanucks

pbi said:
			
		

> That's why I added the caveat "_if correct_". However, I stand by my concern over selection for recruiting duty. Over the years I have seen some excellent people go there, but I have seen a number of people who simply should not be in the public eye as representatives and recruiters. In the Combat Arms, at least, recruiting duty holds a rather low profile and is not, at least AFAIK, in much demand as a posting choice. We need to do something about that, so that the best we have in the Cbt Arms will be motivated to go out and recruit the best.
> 
> Cheers



I have been very lucky with my recruiters.   Two of which have been Patricia's   They had to tone it down a bit coming straight from the battalion but they became very good at their jobs in a very short time.   There is a very short ramp up time in recruiting and you have to learn very fast.   Working in recruiting has to get the respect it is due and the old system of "career comes to a full stop" has to end.   However,   it is getting harder and harder to find recruiting staff who don't really want to be here.   Again, I might just be lucky with having the staff that I have but I have been to a lot of other units and 99% of the time I see pride of ownership.   Cheers.


----------



## Infanteer

kincanucks said:
			
		

> A kid comes on here and recollects something from 2-3 years ago that a recruiter may or may not have said and you want to e-mail the entire food chain and launch the QRF.   And the recruiter probably doesn't even work in recruiting anymore.   I'm not making light of a serious screw-up but lets put on our adult thinking caps and put it all into perspective.   Cheers.
> 
> PS People like that don't last long before they are found out.



When I asked, the kid had not explained that it was a few years ago.  I figured if it was done in the last month or so, it might be possible to do something about this situation.

Clearly, that is not the case anymore.

Cheers,
Infanteer


----------



## Jarnhamar

> What a joke. The worst part, the LADY told us strait up she did not want to see enlist in the Reg. Force as combat arms.   She made it seem like anyone who signs up as a grunt is only selling themselves short.




I'm sure glad my grandfather and scores of others "sold themselves short" in WW2.

People who try and convince young men and women not to go into the combat arms should pull their heads out of their asses. The mentality of those people is whats helping to erode the Canadian Forces.

"Oh my god, not the infantry, anything but that"
Good idea, lets have an army without any "combat" soldiers. Hey next lets stop training with rifles and spend more time playing sports, we'll stop going to the field too.

These recruiters are *not* soldiers.


----------



## atticus

GDawg said:
			
		

> They really ought to teach kids the difference between RegF and PRes in high school CALM (Career and life management classes), not as a CFRC presentation for them to glaze over during, but as a small part of the curriculum, put in in the text book or notes so they can reference it at their leisure.



I think that is a great idea! Although, do schools outside of Alberta have CALM (I grew up in Alberta and have not much idea about school systems outside of Alberta)?

The Sgt who recruited me into the cbt arms was fantastic! I really could have asked for a better guy! He even would come around every so often wednesday night to check up on his new troops to see how their doin and to give them some friendly motivation. He did make it somewhat clear however, that you should not put all your eggs in one basket so to speak.


----------



## condor888000

Steve99 said:
			
		

> You could be right.   As far as I remember the grade 12's and 13's both graduated when I was in grade 9.   What province do you live in?   I'm in Ottawa, Ontario.   Anyway it really doesn't matter if I was in grade 9 or 10, but the CF did put on ONE decent recruiting information thing in the lobby, I didn't look to closely at it though.



Alright sounds good.......matter of fact I'm in Ottawa too, Orleans to be exact....


----------



## Island Ryhno

I played at the National Midget and Junior fastpitch championship in Nepean and Orleans, great place!


----------



## Goober

One of the most effective recruiting strategies in my opinion, is public exersices, such as the one in the Halifax commons not so long ago. Canada needs to do more of them.


----------



## canadianblue

> There was a time were that the anthem was play before every movie and the were no ads at all.
> I thing the younger generation have lost there sense of patroitism b/c of little things like this.



I wish it were still like that. While some attack the American's for being to patriotic, I think we aren' patriotic enough. Plus what is patriotism now adays, it's being construed as being anti-American, pro-liberal, and anti-military. I'm none of those, yet I still love this country, and am hoping to loyally serve her.


----------



## MdB

I don't if it's been posted or that it should be in here, still, here's the article. I'd like to have your opinion on that.

From the Halifax Daily News:


> http://www.hfxnews.ca/news.aspx?pname=News&storyID=34380
> 
> Wednesday, May 11, 2005
> 
> Forces spend $1m on videos
> By Chris Lambie
> 
> The military is looking for a few good filmmakers.
> 
> The Canadian Forces is planning to spend $1 million on â Å“inspirationalâ ? high-definition recruiting videos.
> 
> â Å“It's something that someone's going to watch and they're going to go, 'Wow, this looks like a great career opportunity,'â ? Capt. Holly-Ann Brown said yesterday.
> 
> The short films will be shown in recruiting centres. They'll promote occupations and trades in the military â Å“without embellishment,â ? Brown said.
> 
> â Å“We want it to be realistic,â ? she said. â Å“We don't want to candy-coat anything.â ?
> 
> But Halifax filmmaker Chuck Lapp believes the videos won't provide a true picture of life in uniform.
> 
> â Å“They're not going to advertise that they're going to put people through post-traumatic stress disorder and exposure to toxic environments,â ? said Lapp, who produced No Harbour For War, a documentary on the military history of Halifax Harbour.
> 
> â Å“They're not going to attract people if they actually tell them what it's really like.â ?
> 
> The videos will be used to hire disposable â Å“cannon fodder,â ? Lapp said.
> 
> â Å“They're recruiting people who are going to be chewed up and spit out by the military,â ? he said.
> 
> â Å“Clearly, they're trying to imitate a lot of the American propaganda to attract soldiers.â ?
> 
> Over the next five years, Canada's military plans to hire 5,000 more full-time soldiers and 3,000 reservists. But the recruiting system has come under fire for being ill-equipped to handle that influx.
> 
> â Å“There's growing recognition that the present recruiting advertising system is not working,â ? said Richard Gimblett, a research fellow with Dalhousie University's Centre for Foreign Police Studies.
> 
> The new recruiting videos will be â Å“selling a lifestyleâ ? to people between the ages of 18 and 26, said Gimblett, a former naval officer.
> 
> â Å“That's your ideal candidate,â ? he said.
> 
> Halifax filmmaker Wanda Graham has little doubt the military videos will attract new troops.
> 
> â Å“Those recruitment films can be really sexy and dynamite,â ? said Graham, who directed a documentary called Military Wives about the problems faced by women married to soldiers.
> 
> She suspects the new videos won't include any tales of family strife in the military.
> 
> â Å“Part of the military is this stoic, duty-bound, fortress mentality,â ? Graham said. â Å“They would have to admit that families are softer than that.â ?


----------



## winchable

Do you ever get the feeling...that...they're watching us?

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/27971.0.html

3 Months after that extremely good discussion and a number of other discussions regarding potential members applying to foreign forces...


----------



## kincanucks

Che said:
			
		

> Do you ever get the feeling...that...they're watching us?
> 
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/27971.0.html
> 
> 3 Months after that extremely good discussion and a number of other discussions regarding potential members applying to foreign forces...



We are.  I know of a few of us that sent that thread to CFRG HQ.  Don't know if that is what happen here but this is a hotbed of public opinion and some of us do pay attention.


----------



## Baloo

Can't go one article without slagging the military can they? 

Or the Americans, for that matter?

"Cannon fodder". Yeah, when was the last time you heard Canadian troops being treated like this.


----------



## Pieman

I wonder what film company they are going to contract the production out to?
Please not the CBC....anyone but the CBC!! 

If it is an open competition contract, I did not see anything on merx.com, not yet anyway.


----------



## George Wallace

Baloo said:
			
		

> "Cannon fodder". Yeah, when was the last time you heard Canadian troops being treated like this.



Only by the Halifax Daily News.   ;D


----------



## Blakey

First off 





> But* Halifax filmmaker Chuck Lapp *believes the videos won't provide a true picture of life in uniform.
> 
> â Å“They're not going to advertise that they're going to put people through post-traumatic stress disorder and exposure to toxic environments,â ? said Lapp, who produced No Harbour For War, a documentary on the military history of Halifax Harbour.
> 
> â Å“They're not going to attract people if they actually tell them what it's really like.â ?
> 
> The videos will be used to hire disposable â Å“cannon fodder,â ? Lapp said.


 remark was *not* made by anyone from the HDN, it was made by a Halifax filmmaker.
As for the rest of my reply, lunch is almost over so ill reserve my reply until after work.


----------



## George Wallace

Blakey said:
			
		

> First off   remark was *not* made by anyone from the HDN, it was made by a Halifax filmmaker.
> As for the rest of my reply, lunch is almost over so ill reserve my reply until after work.



OK, you've made your point.......as quoted and printed in the HDN may be a more accurate credit on this statement, but what of the many other instances where they have treated the members of the CF as 'cannon fodder' in their journalistic ramblings?   I am sure that Mr. Lapp can not take all the credit for the swipes at the Canadian Military that the HDN have taken over the years.   I am sure you, too, have felt 'shell shock' at some of their rantings and those of some of their 'respected' and 'not so respected' hired 'expert on the Canadian military' writers. 

See you after work...... ;D


----------



## I_am_John_Galt

Who the hell is Chuck Lapp?  (And why would anyone, particularly anyone with an interest in a career in the military, care what he thinks?)


----------



## Britney Spears

George is being far too easy on this rag. I can only assume that the average reader of the HDN must possess the mental capacity of a toddler, for it to attempt to pass of such drivel as "Journalism". I suppose they must also quote Steven Spielberg as an expert on marine biology, or myself as an expert on automotive maintanace.


----------



## Sh0rtbUs

it would probably be more effective if they simply hired a foreign Force to make one for us, since I doubt we're going to have anything profound. I nominate the RM to make us 1  ;D


----------



## Pieman

> Who the hell is Chuck Lapp?   (And why would anyone, particularly anyone with an interest in a career in the military, care what he thinks?)



Looks like he works here:
http://www.envisionproductions.ca/

Looking at the films he produced...well...judge for yourself.


----------



## stukirkpatrick

> Looking at the films he produced...well...judge for yourself.



Did thousands of people really come out to protest Canadian ships leaving for the FIRST Gulf War?   The one where we were basically intervening in a war in progress, to liberate Kuwait?   Under UN sanction?   Sounds like this guy only sees what he wants to see...


----------



## Danjanou

Kirkpatrick said:
			
		

> Did thousands of people really come out to protest Canadian ships leaving for the FIRST Gulf War?   The one where we were basically intervening in a war in progress, to liberate Kuwait?   Under UN sanction?   Sounds like this guy only sees what he wants to see...



Not hard to do wearing those "politically correct anti-military/business/work ethic etc etc" blinkers eh 8)


----------



## George Wallace

Blakey

That was a short drive home.    ;D


----------



## Blakey

Ok, work is over...now it is time to type.

I think some people are missing the point of my first post.
In the past Ive seen many topics spiral out of control because someone has misread a posted news article. (fair enough it happens)
All that i was simply stating is that the news source in question did not make that statement, i wasn't vouching for the media outlets credibility or fairness of issues ect. To be quite honest, i have no idea what sort of reputation the HDN has when it comes to reporting on the Canadian Military. Hopefully that cleared that up (*cough GW cough*    ), I'm not much when it comes to trying to get my point across in print.




> Who the hell is Chuck Lapp?   (And why would anyone, particularly anyone with an interest in a career in the military, care what he thinks?)


My thoughts as well.

Now to the *meat* of the matter.
*IMHO* Showing "movies" at the recruiting center is besides the point, the first step is to get the people *TO* the recruiting center(in order to show them these new "high speed movies"). So, why not focus more attention on recruiting campaigns through TV and paper ad's?. I don't know about anyone else but the last time i saw a CF commercial...well its been a while...and it didn't exactly give me a warm fuzzy feeling inside.



> Blakey
> 
> That was a short drive home.


I could have walked but....that 800m is just too much at my age   

*1st edit*
Think of it like fishing...you choose your lure before you even drop your line in the water and once you've *caught* the fish you decide how your going to fillet it. *NOT* the other way around.

*2nd edit* Id love to work for CFRG HQ designing recruiting posters, i have a little experience in that field, but alas im stuck in 031 world   :'( (C'mon Image Tech OT)
_Side not, spell checker going wonkey on me_


----------



## George Wallace

Blakey said:
			
		

> *IMHO* Showing "movies" at the recruiting center is besides the point, the first step is to get the people *TO* the recruiting center(in order to show them these new "high speed movies"). So, why not focus more attention on recruiting campaigns through TV and paper ad's?. I don't know about anyone else but the last time i saw a CF commercial...well its been a while...and it didn't exactly give me a warm fuzzy feeling inside.
> 
> *1st edit*
> Think of it like fishing...you choose your lure before you even drop your line in the water and once you've *caught* the fish you decide how your going to fillet it. *NOT* the other way around.
> 
> *2nd edit* Id love to work for CFRG HQ designing recruiting posters, i have a little experience in that field, but alas im stuck in 031 world    :'( (C'mon Image Tech OT)
> _Side not, spell checker going wonkey on me_



Good points.

Spell Check has been screwy for me today, also.


----------



## Blakey

A response! Does this mean im no longer the "Forum Pariah"?  ;D


----------



## George Wallace

Yeah.....I suppose, now you'll want to do the Spiderman Dance of Joy.


[EDIT]:  Opps I forgot to include the  ;D


----------



## Blakey

;D


----------



## garb811

Blakey said:
			
		

> Now to the *meat* of the matter.
> *IMHO* Showing "movies" at the recruiting center is besides the point, the first step is to get the people *TO* the recruiting center(in order to show them these new "high speed movies"). So, why not focus more attention on recruiting campaigns through TV and paper ad's?. I don't know about anyone else but the last time i saw a CF commercial...well its been a while...and it didn't exactly give me a warm fuzzy feeling inside.



Since the movies will probably replace the current videos at the recruiting website I don't think it's totally getting the cart in front of the horse, particularly if surveys have shown a large percentage of walk-ins have previously visited the site for information.


----------



## kitrad1

I might be wrong, but I think that they are referring to the trade lifestyle videos that are shown in recruiting centres and not paid commercials.

At any rate, either one is worthwhile.


----------



## P-Free

Yup, the article says the videos will be shown in recruiting centers to promote trades and occupations in the military without "embellishment".


----------



## swanita

P-Free said:
			
		

> Yup, the article says the videos will be shown in recruiting centers to promote trades and occupations in the military without "embellishment".



Yeah but do you think that the "whole story" will be told? Just for the sake of getting their 5000 recruits? Doubt it. We all know that only the good points regarding a particular trade will be highlighted in these videos.


----------



## kitrad1

swanita said:
			
		

> Yeah but do you think that the "whole story" will be told? Just for the sake of getting their 5000 recruits? Doubt it. We all know that only the good points regarding a particular trade will be highlighted in these videos.



These videos are but a few minutes in length and are to educate applicants about various aspects of the job. Given the amount of time available and the average viewer's attention span, what would you have them say? 

The current videos and monographs do reflect some of the least appealing aspects of the job(s)

I read on a thread elsewhere that the CF received approximately 26 000 (26 thousand) applications last year for the positions available. I don't think that the organization needs to create embellished videos. 

Perhaps you are confusing trade lifestyle videos with infomercials? You're reading way too much into it.


----------



## swanita

kitrad1 said:
			
		

> The current videos and monographs do reflect some of the least appealing aspects of the job(s)
> 
> I read on a thread elsewhere that the CF received approximately 26 000 (26 thousand) applications last year for the positions available. I don't think that the organization needs to create embellished videos.
> 
> Perhaps you are confusing trade lifestyle videos with infomercials? You're reading way too much into it.



Not reading too much into it, i just think that maybe spending a million dollars on videos could be better spent elsewhere. Maybe in more staff to deal with the 26,000 applications you mentioned to increase processing times. Why do they need to change anything with the current videos & stuff they already have? Unless it's ghastly outdated....


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

Blakey said:
			
		

> *IMHO* Showing "movies" at the recruiting center is besides the point, the first step is to get the people *TO* the recruiting center(in order to show them these new "high speed movies"). So, why not focus more attention on recruiting campaigns through TV and paper ad's?. I don't know about anyone else but the last time i saw a CF commercial...well its been a while...and it didn't exactly give me a warm fuzzy feeling inside.



*Exactly.* Who cares about the videos in the Recruiting Centre if nobody even knows there is a job there to begin with. You have to get people there! The only coverage that the general public receives regarding the CF is the never ending assault of negative PR the media loves to dish out about the CF and its equipment. They make it sound like a farce. You never hear about the good the CF is doing just that they bought used subs, have planes that are grounded all the time etc. etc. I think they are scaring a lot of people away & this is the biggest recruiting hurdle the CF is facing. 

Their previous advertisements do nothing to attract someone who was not already considering signing up. My campus will periodically have posters on the bathroom wall but most students attitudes are "As if I would ever want to do that". In fact I have heard them joke about it a lot. 

Bottom line, if I wasn't already interested in th CF, hadn't been to a couple of airshows (which are becoming a thing of the past) or had friends in the Forces, I wouldn't even know the they existed. They just aren't out there enough and when they are, their advertisements do nothing to promote the CF.


----------



## kitrad1

From the posts, I'm not sure what the issue is...people are concerned about spending money on videos, advertising or lack thereof?

From what I understand, more than 26 000 (26 thousand) people have applied each year for the last few years... that's about four people for every available position. To me then, the issue really isn't about getting people into the recruiting centres.

While it is important to keep the CF uppermost in the public's mind (and of course any potential applicant's mind), it is okay to spend some money and update the videos in the recruiting centres. There is no doubt that a lot of occupations have changed, as has a lot of kit and equipment. I think that the basic training video is from 1994 (I could be wrong, but I don't think so). These are the same videos that recruiters take on the road to career fairs, open houses etc.

So, we haven't seen as many ads on TV or in the paper...there are many other forms of media out there to get the message out that the CF is hiring. I would guess that there are ads in professional journals for those "hard to find" occupations.

Anyways, might as well spend it on updating videos, because if there is an election, guess what? We probably won't see any advertising as it contravenes election law (Again, I could be wrong but I don't think so).

Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing some updated videos. Maybe they'll even be posted to the recruiting website.

Just my two cents.


----------



## Pieman

> Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing some updated videos. Maybe they'll even be posted to the recruiting website.


Was just watching some of the videos on the recruiting website again and started thinking about this thread. Yea, the videos are not very inspiring at all. 

The videos do have good information on the type of person you have to be, and what is expected of you. But does not give any kind of feel for what the trade is really like. If they do make some new videos that depict reality better, then I suspect it would have a much bigger impact on recruits when they make the decision for their trade.

Really, let's face it, $1M is not exactly a lot of money to spend on advertising at all. So now that I look at it again, I suspect producing some good in house videos would be a pretty good way to invest the money.


----------



## MdB

Not having watched TDV at all, could there be any possibility to work that way or be inspired of it for recruiting videos?

I mean, even though I haven't watched it, I'm attracted to it and I personally think this one of the best way to promote the CF. It does a great deal of a advertising job. This is already a kind of partership, would be good to extend it. What about some demos like the Air Force or the veterans mock battles? Be it on tv or live in the field.


----------



## Island Ryhno

The forces are one of those things, I think either you're interested in it or you're not. I'm not so sure that advertising works as well here in Canada as it does in the states. Perhaps because of the way our socioeconomic systems work, I dunno. As an example, In my large group of friends who are mostly young (under 30) very fit (we are mostly hockey players, weight lifters, hikers etc) and well educated, not one of them is interested in the military, not one.(myself the exception of course) I sell to these guys on a constant basis, always telling them about the exciting things etc etc, but no bites. I think for the majority of forces applicants it's something they have always wanted, not something they can be persuaded to do.


----------



## Pieman

> As an example, In my large group of friends who are mostly young (under 30) very fit (we are mostly hockey players, weight lifters, hikers etc) and well educated, not one of them is interested in the military, not one.(myself the exception of course) I sell to these guys on a constant basis, always telling them about the exciting things etc etc, but no bites.



Don't sell yourself short Island Rhyno. For myself, my decision to join the forces was greatly influenced by some of my University roommates, who were in the reserves while going through school. They would tell me lots of stories about the Army, and were constantly encouraging me to join saying they thought I would love it. I would not budge, my priorities were not in line with the idea of joining at the time.

I did not decide to apply to the CF until a few years later when I was finishing up graduate school. My past roomies certainly had a small part in helping that decision along as they probably seeded the idea or at least poured some water on it. So, your buddies may not be responding now...but later on the idea of joining may appeal to them. Just by talking about it, you are probably setting a few gears in motion.

Looking back, I really wish I had decided to join. I suspect that if I ran into the opportunity to join up such as a Army demonstration day or something like that, I probably would have.


----------



## MdB

Good thoughts here.

The advertising way wouldn't do much in Canada, but the sharing of experiences from soldiers might ring some bells. This sharing, like in TDV or a demo day would have the advantage to show what's really going on in the CF, the bad and the ugly too, but point out that despite all the mud, these experiences (as shared) are worth the effort.

As for me, as a teenager, I tought about joining the reserve. Coming from a little town without CFRC or reserve unit, I forgot about it after a while (but the military in general has ever been of interest for me). At the dawn of the second Iraq conflict, international security came as an obvious subject and as a Canadian, I wanted to be a part of it. The old dreams came back in front and even though I thought about joining the reserve first, to see how that could be, I decided finally to apply for full-time.

The main point here is that the CF should just be more apparent in the canadian society and in the medias. In my mind, it's mostly a matter of education.


----------



## civvy3840

I haven't seen the videos yet but I hope that they are better than what Pieman said if the CF gave out $1 million to make them!!


----------



## a_majoor

Sigh

We already have 26K people walking through the door and they want to spend $1 million on videos? Lets put the money where it is *really* needed; the recruiting process to speed these people through in days or weeks (not months or years), and most especially in the training system so they get hard, realistic and applicable training with the right amount of boots and uniforms to wear....

If we could somehow absorb that many people, we would not be having issues with stress and burnout.


----------



## JasonH

It's funny how they think no ones trying to join up.  I see plenty of people wanting to join but the problem lies with the Process of enlistment.  Recruiters are a pain in the ass (Always losing files, closing them prematurely, etc).  

FIX THE GOD DAMN PROCESS


----------



## Kal

Perhaps the problem goes higher than the recruiting office.  The government doesn't have to invest more money into the military if they don't let anyone in.  I would guess that if another party (more to the right) were in office, many, many more of the people would be getting in.  I believe the current government is more responsible for the recruiting woes and negative image than the CF itself...


----------



## Lost_Warrior

My girlfriend was watching TV the other night and she saw a commercial of some guy in PT gear and an army shirt running down a street in front of children and he said "I'm doing it for them" (or something like that)

She only caught a glimpse of it.  Anyone see this, or can anyone confirm if it was actually a recruiting commercial for the Canadian forces?   She saw it on Global.  I doubt they would have US army recruiting commercials on there.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

I only get three Canadian stations down here on my rabbit ears. CBC (don't expect to see it there), CHWI (nope) and TVO (to intellectual  ). Can't honestly say when the last time was I saw a Canadian recruiting commercial. The US (most of my stations) has some awesome ones though. Couple of years ago they gave some big Hollywood directors the go ahead to make some commercials. Guys like Spike Lee. They went all out and produced some very cool stuff.


----------



## Teddy Ruxpin

It's a US Army Reserve ad.


----------



## COBRA-6

Sounds like a new US Army National Guard commercial that's had a lot of air-time lately... shows a guy in PT strip ("ARMY" t-shirt) running through his neighbourhood looking at the local families and kids...


----------



## aesop081

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> It's a US Army Reserve ad.



just saw it on UPN actualy


----------



## Lost_Warrior

> Sounds like a new US Army National Guard commercial that's had a lot of air-time lately... shows a guy in PT strip ("ARMY" t-shirt) running through his neighbourhood looking at the local families and kids...



Yea, that was it.  Too bad.  That would have been a pretty good Canadian Forces commercial.


----------



## BITTER PPLCI CPL

Our recruiting commercials are extremely gay and portray our military in such a soft spoken way. Image is everything whether we like it or not. We need to make our commercials like the U. S. Army and their Army of One add's.There aggresive, full of action and show's competence in what we do fo a living.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

BITTER PPLCI CPL love your signiture.  We are the poor cousins after all.


----------



## Armymedic

Theres a 2nd Bn of PPCLI?  ??? 

Oh, yeah, in Shilo, where I really want to go, but nobody will send me...

Yes our recruiting vidoes are for pussies. The US Army put out a 91W combat medic recruiting video which I had the privligde to see duuring OP Med conference last yr. With lines like, "I will not leave a wounded soldier behind" and "it is my skill and knowledge that spurs thier courage to fight where normal people run away" Others called it blated Patriotism, I almost had a tear in my eye, and wanted to jump ship to the US Army....


----------



## Springroll

The thing with the US commercials is that they are geared to directly affect kids looking for excitement. 
Why do you think that they have video games for recruiting?? 
They are also geared to those that have been brought up with patriotism shoved in their mouths from birth and that is all they believe.

Don't believe me?

I lived in the US before 9-11 and was there for 2 years after...and I have never seen so many flags go up so quickly as they did after Bush said that he was headed to warit was nauseating actually. Our CDN flag was up the day after we moved into our house and came down the day the movers were at our hosue packing us up.

The Canadians that were living down there were harassed and even assaulted by Americans who felt that the Canadians were not helping with the war...thats Fox news for ya!


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

"The Canadians that were living down there were harassed and even assaulted by Americans who felt that the Canadians were not helping with the war...thats Fox news for ya!"

Please provide links or other proof.


----------



## Springroll

CFL said:
			
		

> "The Canadians that were living down there were harassed and even assaulted by Americans who felt that the Canadians were not helping with the war...thats Fox news for ya!"
> 
> Please provide links or other proof.



I am as close to proof as you will need. I was assaulted by a USN member at a night clb after he heard I was from Canada....I sustained two loose teeth and a split eyebrow that needed stitched, not to meantion the emotional turmoil it caused me, my hubby and my kids.

Would you like pictures of the injuries, the name of the county prosecutor or the name of the squadron lawyer I was also dealing with? Maybe the names of the NCIS officers??

Sorry, justice was never served in my instance so i am still very bitter about it. All the guy got was a letter on his file because he was a what they call a 5.0 sailor and they didn't want to ruin his career.   :


This is two pics of my face after 3 and 6 days....this was before the stitches were taken out and before I had my dental work done


----------



## FormerHorseGuard

I moved to Iowa in Jan 2000 and moved back to Canada Dec 23 , 2004. I was there for almost 5 years.
When people learned I was a former soldier , they always asked if I was US ARMY, then they were shocked to learn I was Canadian Army. Some were more shocked to learn Canada had any  sort of a miliary, thought it was the RCMP that was the army group. I always explained the RCMP was like the FBI, the national police force etc. 
When 9/11 happened I was given a hardtime because they all thought the terrorist came thru Canada.  When the war was started, they were mad because Canada would not support the USA in the war in Iraq , they never reported much in the States about Canadians being on the line in Afghanistan. Even after the bombing of the troops by mistake.  From what I saw on tv and heard in public, it the US forces and British Forces. Perhaps because we did not send troops to Iraq , our  troops in Afghanistan did not mean anything till the reports of the Canadian Snipers saving lives thru amazing shots and great action reports, did  most Americans I know even knew we were there. 

I know there was some ANTI - Canadian feelings in the USA, it is not the everyday  feeling but it is there.


----------



## Springroll

FormerHorseGuard said:
			
		

> I moved to Iowa in Jan 2000 and moved back to Canada Dec 23 , 2004.



I was there from Aug'01-Aug'04 and we were down there with NATO.

Did you hear the news story about the french Canadian in Texas that had his house vandalised???

Some fellow Canadians down there actually had their CDN flag ripped off their house and it was set on fire in front of their home.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Well I appreciate the proof.  The reason why I asked is that I didn't hear anything about CDN's being harassed.  Sorry they didn't prosecute further.


----------



## Britney Spears

*Springroll*:  I'm absolutely shocked at your injuries and do sincerely hope that no permanent damage was done ( you didn't say when this attack occured, so I assume it was some time ago). I am also appalled that your assailant was not punished more severely. This ignorant cowardly fucktard was a "5.0 sailor"? What the hell would a "3.0 sailor" be?  Incidents like this really sap my confidence in common human decency. 

My best wishes to you, and may the "5.0 sailor" find his just reward.


----------



## Springroll

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> *Springroll*:   I'm absolutely shocked at your injuries and do sincerely hope that no permanent damage was done ( you didn't say when this attack occured, so I assume it was some time ago). I am also appalled that your assailant was not punished more severely. This ignorant cowardly fucktard was a "5.0 sailor"? What the heck would a "3.0 sailor" be?   Incidents like this really sap my confidence in common human decency.
> 
> My best wishes to you, and may the "5.0 sailor" find his just reward.



I was attcked by him February 16th/2002. He waited outside the club until i was leaving. Good thing I was walked out because my "escort" was the person who got the plate number, called 911 and tried to stop the vehicle he was ion. My teeth will be permanently sensitive because they were knocked loose but I have learned to live with them and I will have the scar above my eye forever.

I think what kills me is that I found out this past January that they were not going to go after him because "too much time had gone by" but what they forogt is that they had the case for well over a year, more like 16 mths. They being the county prosecutors. I fought and fought to have the guy dealt with, even bringing up that if he really was a 5.0 sailor he never would have done that..but none of it mattered to them.

They waited until we were posted back to Canada and then dropped the charges once we were here. I tried getting the Canadian Consulate in Seattle to help me, but there was nothing they could even do(or so they told me). Tried to get my husbands command to even help me out, but they didn't want any part in it because chances are the guy would turn around and play the race card (he is a 6'3 black man)...even NCIS warned me about that one and how popular it is for the guys(and girls) to use it to maneuver through the ranks.

The one thing that gives me comfort is that karma is a b***h, and it will come back and bite him in the arse when the time is right.


----------



## 48Highlander

Springroll said:
			
		

> The thing with the US commercials is that they are geared to directly affect kids looking for excitement.
> Why do you think that they have video games for recruiting??
> They are also geared to those that have been brought up with patriotism shoved in their mouths from birth and that is all they believe.
> 
> Don't believe me?
> 
> I lived in the US before 9-11 and was there for 2 years after...and I have never seen so many flags go up so quickly as they did after Bush said that he was headed to warit was nauseating actually. Our CDN flag was up the day after we moved into our house and came down the day the movers were at our hosue packing us up.
> 
> The Canadians that were living down there were harassed and even assaulted by Americans who felt that the Canadians were not helping with the war...thats Fox news for ya!



And thanks to our wonderfull Liberal government plus the influence of the CBC, Americans coming up here get harrassed and assaulted also.  Give it a break will ya?  Neither situation has anything to do with excess patriotism or government brainwashing;  there are judgemental idiots all over the world who think with their hormones and therefore act like neanderthals.  YOUR situation might also have something to do with the fact that you think people putting up american flags is "nauseating", whereas it's perfectly fine for you to fly a Canadian flag.  I'm not trying to justify the assault on you, but it certainly sounds like your attitude may have instigated it.


----------



## Hunter911

Armymedic said:
			
		

> Yes our recruiting vidoes are for pussies. The US Army put out a 91W combat medic recruiting video which I had the privligde to see duuring OP Med conference last yr. With lines like, "I will not leave a wounded soldier behind" and "it is my skill and knowledge that spurs thier courage to fight where normal people run away" Others called it blated Patriotism, I almost had a tear in my eye, and wanted to jump ship to the US Army....


Its true... the only memorable thing in our Forces Commercials is a guy who looks like hes having the worst time of his life, being really pissed off sitting in a tank... I mean... then tank didnt even blow somethin up  :blotto:

Jokin... but in all honesty... i know alot of people around who would be suited for military life perfectly, but they dont have the access to the forces to get involed... A comercial here and there with a fast pace and a catchy toon couldnt hurt


----------



## Springroll

48Highlander said:
			
		

> And thanks to our wonderfull Liberal government plus the influence of the CBC, Americans coming up here get harassed and assaulted also.   Give it a break will ya?   Neither situation has anything to do with excess patriotism or government brainwashing;   there are judgemental idiots all over the world who think with their hormones and therefore act like neanderthals.   YOUR situation might also have something to do with the fact that you think people putting up american flags is "nauseating", whereas it's perfectly fine for you to fly a Canadian flag.   I'm not trying to justify the assault on you, but it certainly sounds like your attitude may have instigated it.



If you had actually taken the time to read, and understand, what I wrote I said it it was nauseating at how fast the flags went up after 9-11.  Shouldn't people be patriotic before a bad event such as 
9-11?? 

My flag has ALWAYS proudly flown out in front of my house regardless of the situation or my location of residence. Now for my attitude instigating my assault, it didn't. Even the witness's said it was a random act of violence which seems to have started when the guy over heard me talking to a friend about being Canadian and living in the USA and how it was different. This witness then over heard the guy talking about "taking out the Canadian"....yeah, I must have started it  :  I liked it there until my assault.

Now I am curious why you feel that Americans coming up here and being harassed is no different? Do you know why they have been harassed or assaulted? I would bet some $$ that I know why, and you would not like that answer.


----------



## 48Highlander

Springroll said:
			
		

> If you had actually taken the time to read, and understand, what I wrote I said it it was nauseating at how fast the flags went up after 9-11.   Shouldn't people be patriotic before a bad event such as
> 9-11??



Well, thanks for the clarification, but I disagree.  People also get more generous after a disaster, donating thousands of dollars to charities.  Is that nauseating too?  A disaster is, for most people, a wake-up call.  They go through day to day life pretending there's no problems anywhere in the world.  Then something horrible happens, and they "get it", and want to help.  For a while anyway.  As the current US experience shows, it's not long before they go back to their old way of looking at the world.  THAT is the part that nauseates me.



			
				Springroll said:
			
		

> My flag has ALWAYS proudly flown out in front of my house regardless of the situation or my location of residence. Now for my attitude instigating my assault, it didn't. Even the witness's said it was a random act of violence which seems to have started when the guy over heard me talking to a friend about being Canadian and living in the USA and how it was different. This witness then over heard the guy talking about "taking out the Canadian"....yeah, I must have started it   :   I liked it there until my assault.



Well, if I'm mistaken you have my appology.  Wether or not you instigated it, it deffinitely shouldn't have happened, and he deserves to be punished heavily for his actions.



			
				Springroll said:
			
		

> Now I am curious why you feel that Americans coming up here and being harassed is no different? Do you know why they have been harassed or assaulted? I would bet some $$ that I know why, and you would not like that answer.



Really?  Please, enlighten me.  I've had several friends who have been spit on and insulted on the streets of Toronto, and I'd love to know what horrible shortcoming of theirs may have invited such attacks.


----------



## canadianblue

> Now I am curious why you feel that Americans coming up here and being harassed is no different? Do you know why they have been harassed or assaulted? I would bet some $$ that I know why, and you would not like that answer.



Well I've talked to lots of American's that came up to Canada through my jobs. Not a single American was ever arrogant towards me at any time, and always treated myself with respect. Sorry about this assault that happened, but if you already have this type of attitude about American's then are you no better then the guy that assaulted you. If your already coming to a call of judgement, then why are you getting mad when some people already pre-judged you down in the states?


----------



## Springroll

Futuretrooper said:
			
		

> Well I've talked to lots of American's that came up to Canada through my jobs. Not a single American was ever arrogant towards me at any time, and always treated myself with respect. Sorry about this assault that happened, but if you already have this type of attitude about American's then are you no better then the guy that assaulted you. If your already coming to a call of judgement, then why are you getting mad when some people already pre-judged you down in the states?



I didn't have this attitude before I was assaulted, it actually is a very new thing for me. After justice for me was not served, I changed my opinion on the american justice system and their armed forces. I do not hate all americans, but I do not like those arrogant "holier than thou" types that I seem to always meet. 

I will make this very clear, I DO NOT HATE ALL AMERICANS...I have quite a few awesome friends whom I met while posted to the USA and have maintained contact with since moving. I guess it is different when you live amongst them for a period of time then if you only have to deal with them as tourists or short term employees....


----------



## Infanteer

Springroll said:
			
		

> I guess it is different when you live amongst them for a period of time then if you only have to deal with them as tourists or short term employees....



...or when you have family that are Americans.  This thread is stupid.  300 million people, and you happen to bump into an asshole (and a pretty pathetic one at that, if a 6'3'' guy has to wallop on a female) - is this indicitive of everyone?  No - it's just like the US Marine who was put into hospital by a bunch of Native thugs in Manitoba - shit happens.

If anybody has anything to add, hurry up, because this thread is approaching its expiry date.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

ding


----------



## atticus

So uh, back on topic. Whatever happened to the money that was going to be spent on new recruiting commercals?


----------



## Jarnhamar

Gender and size aside, waiting outside a building to ambush someone like that is just fucking weak.

Unfortunately assholes like that are everywhere.

The problem with Canadian recruiting commercials I figure is their target audience.  I watch these commercials and I'm completely uninspired. I'm not sure what types of people they are trying to attract.

The fact that CDS using the big bad word kill sent the media and politicians in a frenzy shows that Canadians are still disconnected with the reality of our world today. We need to cut out the bullshit and start attracting the right types of soldiers.


----------



## 48Highlander

The new CF recruiting commercials are sorta inspring...but they're also rather inaccurate.  I still get a kick when new recruits ask me "Master Corporal, when do we get to rappel out of helicopters?".  They usualy look rather crestfallen after hearing that I spent about 7 years in the army before I finally got to do that.


----------



## Springroll

Has anyone watched the trade specific videos that they have on the website?? My hubby got quite the laugh when he saw the one for his trade. He remembers when the RO called him up offering him a NacOp position. When hubby asked him what they do he said, and I quote " They hunt sub's"..I guess he conviently forgot about cleaning stations, painting ship, etc....

I wish the commercials and the videos were more accurate. 
They always leave out the heads cleaning, mopping, and all the other crap jobs that you have to do...


----------



## 48Highlander

Springroll said:
			
		

> Has anyone watched the trade specific videos that they have on the website?? My hubby got quite the laugh when he saw the one for his trade. He remembers when the RO called him up offering him a NacOp position. When hubby asked him what they do he said, and I quote " They hunt sub's"..I guess he conviently forgot about cleaning stations, painting ship, etc....
> 
> I wish the commercials and the videos were more accurate.
> They always leave out the heads cleaning, mopping, and all the other crap jobs that you have to do...



Wouldn't that sorta be like Tommy Hillfigger having commercials that show his models "purging" in the bathroom?


----------



## Springroll

No, it would be more like telling the truth about the job... :


----------



## aesop081

Springroll said:
			
		

> No, it would be more like telling the truth about the job... :



And when you watch those videos....you have to use a little bit of common dog  :  I'msure most people have seen at least one movie where soldiers are doing the janiotr's job.  Who the hell do these people think cleans everything ?


----------



## 48Highlander

aesop081 said:
			
		

> And when you watch those videos....you have to use a little bit of common dog   :   I'msure most people have seen at least one movie where soldiers are doing the janiotr's job.   Who the hell do these people think cleans everything ?



CBO  ;D


----------



## Blakey

> Wouldn't that sorta be like Tommy Hillfigger having commercials that show his models "purging" in the bathroom?





> No, it would be more like telling the truth about the job...


I can see it now:

_Recruiter_ "So you wanna join the infantry eh?"
_Hopefull Applicant_ "Sure do!, I love to travel and camping and stuff"
_Recruiter_ "Ok then, here is a video we usually show to applicants who want to join the Infantry, its 3 min and will encompass all the specific aspects of Infantry life"
_Hopefull Applicant_ "Great! sounds cool"
Recruiter turns down the light pops in the DVD and presses play.

*Insert none inspiring music intro*
*Followed by 4 soldiers sitting around a six foot table*
_East Soldier_ " Pass"
_South Soldier_ "Pass"
_West Soldier _" I GOTTA DO IT MAN!!! ILL GO ALONE!!"
_North Soldier_ " BS, Id sure like to know what your going on...Jack-shit?"
_East Soldier _"You better not get eurched!!!"
*Fade out to more non inspirational music*


----------



## atticus

48Highlander said:
			
		

> The new CF recruiting commercials are sorta inspring...but they're also rather inaccurate.  I still get a kick when new recruits ask me "Master Corporal, when do we get to rappel out of helicopters?".  They usualy look rather crestfallen after hearing that I spent about 7 years in the army before I finally got to do that.



Would it make any difference being in the regs or reserves?


----------



## Springroll

Blakey said:
			
		

> I can see it now:
> 
> _Recruiter_ "So you wanna join the infantry eh?"
> _Hopefull Applicant_ "Sure do!, I love to travel and camping and stuff"
> _Recruiter_ "Ok then, here is a video we usually show to applicants who want to join the Infantry, its 3 min and will encompass all the specific aspects of Infantry life"
> _Hopefull Applicant_ "Great! sounds cool"
> Recruiter turns down the light pops in the DVD and presses play.
> 
> *Insert none inspiring music intro*
> *Followed by 4 soldiers sitting around a six foot table*
> _East Soldier_ " Pass"
> _South Soldier_ "Pass"
> _West Soldier _" I GOTTA DO IT MAN!!! ILL GO ALONE!!"
> _North Soldier_ " BS, Id sure like to know what your going on...Jack-crap?"
> _East Soldier _"You better not get eurched!!!"
> *Fade out to more non inspirational music*



OH MY...that was funny!! ;D ;D ;D


----------



## Jarnhamar

> I can see it now:
> 
> Recruiter "So you wanna join the infantry eh?"



Unfortuinatly when a young guy or girl tells the recruiter that they want to join the infantry their usual response is
_What the hell for? you dont want infantry, you want a tradem, you should pick something else_.

We need the recruiters to understand that along with the important jobs of Pilots, cooks, supply tech, clerks, mechanics etc.. we need combat soldiers.
It seems Canada is concerned most with support and service support where as our allies to the south main focus is combat arms.  Our recruiters, recruiting adds and commercials reflect this.


----------



## 48Highlander

I never experienced that myself, but if you're right then the solution seems simple enough.  If you're infantry, adrep yourself a job at a CFRC   with more combat arms recruiters there helping hype up the cobat trades, it should be a fairly simple job to sign up more soldiers into those MOC's.


----------



## Britney Spears

I've never experienced it either, although my recruiting proccess was rather unique. It seems to me that since our biggest man-power surplus right now is within the cbt arms, then most of the recruiters should be drawn from the cbt arms. This has been my anecdotal experience, and seems to make sense. Most recruiters are probably infantry, because the cooks and clerks are too busy doing their real jobs.


----------



## 48Highlander

I don't know what army you're in Britney, but in the CF I've never seen cooks or clerks "doing their real job"   Like that old joke goes..."how many clerks work here?  oh, about a third of them".


----------



## Roy Harding

48Highlander said:
			
		

> I don't know what army you're in Britney, but in the CF I've never seen cooks or clerks "doing their real job"   Like that old joke goes..."how many clerks work here?  oh, about a third of them".



48Highlander - I don't know what army YOU'RE in, but if you check around you'll find that most folks with some time in (and I don't mean weekends and Wednesday nights  : ) consider CF Cooks not only some of the best in the world, but also some of the hardest working soldiers/airmen/sailors in the CF.

As far as Clerks go - I'm not even going to start, as my obvious personal bias will enable you to ignore anything I might say.

Suffice to say, we're all part of team that, when it's working properly, allows YOU to put lead on target.  Armies have been around for thousands of years - and cooks and clerks have been there all along.


Retired CC


----------



## canadianblue

I think the biggest problem with recruiting is that your no enspired to go to the recruiting office at all. I'm not sure about all of you, but here in Alberta their is absolutely no ads regarding recruiting, not even in movie theatres which used to have the "Strong and Proud" ads. Maybe the army should do a recruiting campaign similar to what the US Marine Corps has, whenever I go to that website I automatically feel like becoming a Marine. 

But then again I also like the Marine First, Trade Second notion on that website as well.


----------



## Roy Harding

Futuretrooper said:
			
		

> I think the biggest problem with recruiting is that your no enspired to go to the recruiting office at all. I'm not sure about all of you, but here in Alberta their is absolutely no ads regarding recruiting, not even in movie theatres which used to have the "Strong and Proud" ads. Maybe the army should do a recruiting campaign similar to what the US Marine Corps has, whenever I go to that website I automatically feel like becoming a Marine.
> 
> But then again I also like the Marine First, Trade Second notion on that website as well.



Is this true?  No advertising?

Before you ask, yes I AM from another planet - I don't watch TV (EVER), and I listen to commercial free radio, so I just kind of assumed that advertising was going on, and I just wasn't seeing/hearing it.

How can we be seeking so many recruits without advertising??


----------



## canadianblue

I've got peasentvision, haven't seen a single ad for recruiting on their, not on the radio either. The only ad I saw in that past was in a newspaper in the classified section with a small section talking about the reserves and giving the CFRC's phone number. The only real interaction that I can say happened was in my CALM 20 class when a recruiter came in to give a presentation. Once again that might just be me, I was surprised when I didn't see the Strong and Proud ads at the movies anymore though.


----------



## GDawg

Some of the CFRG MOC videos are terrible. I've got a set of their DVDs in my office and they suck. They make little or no differentiation between regs and reserves, which is VERY important. Reg and Reserve life and training are different in alot of ways that need to be described to people who are coming in with no background info...
As well, they didn't even have a video for the linemen!
I've proposed several times that Comm Res should produce its own recruiting video, and I've brought up the point to CFRG and ADM(PA) about the poor quality of some of the trade videos... but I've been told no $ is earmarked for it.

I'm not saying videos will solve all of the recruiting problems, but its a damn good start. What a potential applicant sees in a video is more likely to stick in their head than what they've been told or what they've read because they are simultaneously bringing it in on an audio and a visual level. A good video might ensure that the people who do decide to join up know what they are getting into. 

If accurate and memorable videos attract even a dozen new members to a distress trade in a year it has more than paid for itself.


----------



## canadianblue

I was originally applying as a Reserve MP here in Edmonton, and they got me to watch all the videos on the MP's, none of the duties in the videos had anything to do with what I probably would be doing in the reserves. I also noticed that the videos were somewhat outdated based on uniforms.


----------



## scm77

I live in Ontario and barely ever see recruitment ads on TV or on the radio..  I can't remember when the last time I saw one was.  

There was one ad that I saw a bunch of times many many months ago, but it was (like all Canadian recruitment ads I've ever seen) quite lame.


----------



## Roy Harding

Hey Anchorman - are you reading this??

'Nudder PM on its way.


----------



## 48Highlander

Retired CC said:
			
		

> 48Highlander - I don't know what army YOU'RE in, but if you check around you'll find that most folks with some time in (and I don't mean weekends and Wednesday nights   : ) consider CF Cooks not only some of the best in the world, but also some of the hardest working soldiers/airmen/sailors in the CF.
> 
> As far as Clerks go - I'm not even going to start, as my obvious personal bias will enable you to ignore anything I might say.
> 
> Suffice to say, we're all part of team that, when it's working properly, allows YOU to put lead on target.   Armies have been around for thousands of years - and cooks and clerks have been there all along.
> 
> 
> Retired CC



Well fine, if we're going to get into an age-and-time-in contest here, if you check around you'll find that most people with experience AFTER the time Jesus was a Corporal....ah forget it 

Seriously, I was kidding when I made that statement about cooks and clerks, and it was preticipated by Britney's little glib about Infantry working at the CFRC while the others to "their real jobs".  But all kidding aside, for the last 3 months or so I've been working my ass off, doing 16+ hour days on many occasions, while the Clerks generaly get to the office "8 to 9ish", sit around reading books most of the day, and shut down around 4.  Not harping on them, if they have nothing to do then there's nothing wrong with relaxing a bit, and I know they're an important part of the team, but they deffinitely don't seem to be as overworked as you're insinuating   And as for cooks....I think I saw one in Borden once?  The kitchen staff is CBO everywhere in Canada as far as I know, so the cooks on most bases aren't CF members.  The only time you see the CF version is on operations, so I have no idea how hard they work, but I know that the results are superb.


----------



## scm77

Forgot to include in my last post.  The only recruitment I've seen in a magazine was pathetic.  NO weapons/helmets/load bearing gear or other equipment.  No planes, helicopters, armoured vehicles or other "cool stuff".

There was a couple people in the dress suit uniform (sorry can't remember the proper name), a dentist/other medical person in coveralls a doctor would wear, a bunch of people in t-shirts wrestling in the mud, and a guy in the red uniform holding a sword.

I think the people in this picture (taken from the CFLRS website) were also on the ad (but it was a year or two ago so I may be wrong).







If THAT doesn't make you want to join, I don't know what will. :-X


----------



## Roy Harding

48Highlander said:
			
		

> Well fine, if we're going to get into an age-and-time-in contest here, if you check around you'll find that most people with experience AFTER the time Jesus was a Corporal....ah forget it
> 
> Seriously, I was kidding when I made that statement about cooks and clerks, and it was preticipated by Britney's little glib about Infantry working at the CFRC while the others to "their real jobs".  But all kidding aside, for the last 3 months or so I've been working my ass off, doing 16+ hour days on many occasions, while the Clerks generaly get to the office "8 to 9ish", sit around reading books most of the day, and shut down around 4.  Not harping on them, if they have nothing to do then there's nothing wrong with relaxing a bit, and I know they're an important part of the team, but they deffinitely don't seem to be as overworked as you're insinuating   And as for cooks....I think I saw one in Borden once?  The kitchen staff is CBO everywhere in Canada as far as I know, so the cooks on most bases aren't CF members.  The only time you see the CF version is on operations, so I have no idea how hard they work, but I know that the results are superb.



Fair enough - you ruffled my feathers a bit - I ruffled yours back.

However, I find your description of your unit's clerks somewhat astounding - having EXTREMELY limited exposure to the Reserve world (one year RSS - RFA(A) in the Comm Reserve), I'm basing my opinion on my own experience, during which I had to actually ORDER many of my clerks to cease taking work home, and to cease coming in an hour early.  I'm surprised to hear that there are under-employed clerks out there.  The story is long, and not germane to this thread.

'Nuff said - we'll get along just fine 48Highlander.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Scm77, great example with that picture.


----------



## Bartok5

Retired CC said:
			
		

> if you check around you'll find that most folks with some time in consider CF Cooks not only some of the best in the world, but also some of the hardest working soldiers/airmen/sailors in the CF.....   Suffice to say, we're all part of team that, when it's working properly, allows YOU to put lead on target.   Armies have been around for thousands of years - and cooks and clerks have been there all along.



Retired CC,

Forgive me for editing your quote, but I thought that the essence (as I admittedly perceived it) was well worth repeating.   Truer words were never spoken.   I can "sling lead" all I want, but if I don't eat, drink, shower, or have my laundry done on a reasonably regular basis then I tend to get a tad grumpy.   I've gone several weeks eating MREs with none of the other aforementioned amenities, and you know as well as I do (because you were there) that life starts to suck big-time without life's little comforts.   2-week-old crusty underwear is one thing - I can deal with that.   Going without a coffee for 2 weeks?   Absolutely intolerable, and that is a bonafide fact.   

I highly doubt that anyone here with an operational tour under their belts would EVER presume to down-play the critical nature of the CSS world.   In purely selfish terms, it is guys like you who make our lives in the field that much more tolerable.   And for that (and for being there with us), we thank you.

Where I lose my mind is when the log "tail" invariably begins to "wag the dog".   It always seems to be the case, regardless of where we serve.   Somebody please explain to me our unique Canadian fixation with impeccable logistics support - at the expense of bayonets on the ground to do the actual "pointy-end" job.   This is what drives me personally insane.   To think that there are 3 Logistics-types for every bayonet drives me around the bend.   Just what the heck is wrong with eating MREs and busting open you own triwalls full of mid-tour socks and underpants?   

Yes, the Log-types perform an invaluable and much-appreciated service.   But within 3 PPCLI BG we seemed to do just fine with 250-odd Administrators catering to a 750-man Battlegroup.   Yeah, we were "plugged in" to a U.S. Brigade for most of our essential logistics needs, but isn't that generally the case these days?   Can anyone here tell me that the Canadian PRT (the majority of which is HQ and logisitics elements based out of Kandahar) couldn't do the same?   So why the inordinately huge "ass" attached to our relatively small "pointy end"?   Why the need for the most elaborate camp (Julien) in NATO, which our senior leadership now admit was a fundamental mistake?   Whatever happened to "roughing it", and thereby keeping an edge with a minimal logistics foot-print?   

I honestly cannot figure it out.   We need to collectively wake up (again) and start getting "lean".   Enough of the "creature comforts".   We're not in Afghanistan to be comfortable.   Comfort breeds placidity.   Screw that.   Live on the edge, endure some basic hardship, and you will be that much more effective in sorting the wheat from the chaff.   This is one of the few "mantras" that having endured I now truly believe.   Refute me if you must, but until you've done it for yourself I will remain suspicious of your motives....


----------



## canadianblue

I love the BMQ pictures they have going week by week with the recruits smiling and giving a thumbs up in just about each picture. Then I watched the BMQ video at the CFRC and it was completely different. 

Like I said before, they should try adopting a strategy emphasising the pride, tradition, nobility, and war fighting capabilities of the CF. Then their probably going to get more people interested in the CF in my own opinion.


----------



## Roy Harding

Mark C said:
			
		

> Retired CC,
> 
> ...
> 
> Where I lose my mind is when the log "tail" invariably begins to "wag the dog".  It always seems to be the case, regardless of where we serve.  Somebody please explain to me our unique Canadian fixation with impeccable logistics support - at the expense of bayonets on the ground to do the actual "pointy-end" job.  This is what drives me personally insane.  To think that there are 3 Logistics-types for every bayonet drives me around the bend.  Just what the heck is wrong with eating MREs and busting open you own triwalls full of mid-tour socks and underpants?
> 
> Yes, the Log-types perform an invaluable and much-appreciated service.  But within 3 PPCLI BG we seemed to do just fine with 250-odd Administrators catering to a 750-man Battlegroup.  Yeah, we were "plugged in" to a U.S. Brigade for most of our essential logistics needs, but isn't that generally the case these days?  Can anyone here tell me that the Canadian PRT (the majority of which is HQ and logisitics elements based out of Kandahar) couldn't do the same?  So why the inordinately huge "ass" attached to our relatively small "pointy end"?  Why the need for the most elaborate camp (Julien) in NATO, which our senior leadership now admit was a fundamental mistake?  Whatever happened to "roughing it", and thereby keeping an edge with a minimal logistics foot-print?
> 
> I honestly cannot figure it out.  We need to collectively wake up (again) and start getting "lean".  Enough of the "creature comforts".  We're not in Afghanistan to be comfortable.  Comfort breeds placidity.  Screw that.  Live on the edge, endure some basic hardship, and you will be that much more effective in sorting the wheat from the chaff.  This is one of the few "mantras" that having endured I now truly believe.  Refute me if you must, but until you've done it for yourself I will remain suspicious of your motives....



Mark C:

No need to refute you - I agree with you wholeheartedly.  You may not be aware, but when our BG was going through the "TO&E Tango" prior to deployment, I gladly sliced some "Clerk fat", the RQ also sliced some 911s.  We UNDERSTOOD.

What I CAN'T stand, however, is saying to the chain of command something to the effect of:  "if we cut these positions, you'll still have all NEEDED support, but I can't support anything extra, or any 'nice to haves' ".  THEN, later, getting C of C complaints about "lack of service" - THAT, Sir, burns my ass.

I hasten to add, however, that I did not receive such C of C comments during the deployment of which we speak - but the troops sure heaped it onto my clerks - I _usually_ let it go, understanding where the troops were coming from.  I did indulge in the occasional "rant" at the A&Q, mind you.  AND, while I'm on the subject and in rant mode, I'm STILL astounded at the pure volume of work produced by my clerks, the "Forced Rest" scenarios was COMPLETELY unexpected, and NOT staffed for by me - and my folks pulled it off brilliantly - I remain proud of them to this day.

Although the local C of C supported us, I cannot emphasize enough the BS we put up with from Tampa, and ESPECIALLY Ottawa on the adm net.  Intervention by the local C of C may have alleviated the situation in some cases - but it continued to the very end.

Anyway - back to the point - I agree with you - the Tooth to Tail ratio is abysmal.  HOWEVER - the "Teeth" need to learn to live with fewer "nice to haves".

And what this has to do with Recruiting absolutely escapes me.  Maybe we should open a new thread??  Or perhaps an existing thread is more appropriate to this subject.

Regards, Gun Plumber (oops, I mean Mark C   )


Edit:  spelling/grammar.


----------



## Britney Spears

Whoa, CC stands for "Chief Clerk"? 

All this time I thought you were a black hat......


----------



## Roy Harding

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> Whoa, CC stands for "Chief Clerk"?
> 
> All this time I thought you were a black hat......



Smartass ...


----------



## beach_bum

48Highlander said:
			
		

> But all kidding aside, for the last 3 months or so I've been working my *** off, doing 16+ hour days on many occasions, while the Clerks generaly get to the office "8 to 9ish", sit around reading books most of the day, and shut down around 4.



I don't know what OR that is, but it's certainly not like any I've ever worked in.  The only books I've ever read at work were ones like CFAOs etc!  I have worked in a couple of ORs since I've been in, and every one of them had more work than people to do it all.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Most of the cooks I've seen were CF members with the civies doing the odd jobs like making salad's, serving etc.


----------



## Springroll

The cooks that I have encountered have been incredible!!!


----------



## IcEPiCk

I am a civilian... Getting sworn in soon if my medical is cleared.

I agree the commercials are not very appealing.

They need to get some faster paced music and show the people doing stimulating stuff that would appear to young people.  In a way I guess, glorify it.  The American adds are definitely pretty cool....  Its bad that they stand out more then ours.

As for the rapelling, I saw they go a step further and show JTF2 (masks on of course) conducting a live fire exercise or something.  Some might call this false advertising because of the chances of actually getting into JTF2.  The fact of the matter is its a option once youve joined at least to try out for.  Why not advertise it... The recruiters can clarify the chances of joining such an elite group if the recruiter asks.

They need to really glorify it, and emphasize the options that it is open to as opposed to just showing such a friendly face.  The young people these days (at least my generation) grew up with nintendo and stimulating video games.  I mean the commercials arent horrible, but I remember the Niagra Falls Marineland commercials more then I did the Canadian Forces ones.   I say show some action!

Maybe advertise statistics like the longest snipe in record... etc.

Just a thought.


----------



## Springroll

IcEPiCk said:
			
		

> I am a civilian... Getting sworn in soon if my medical is cleared.
> 
> I agree the commercials are not very appealing.
> 
> They need to get some faster paced music and show the people doing stimulating stuff that would appear to young people.   In a way I guess, glorify it.   The American adds are definitely pretty cool....   Its bad that they stand out more then ours.
> 
> As for the rapelling, I saw they go a step further and show JTF2 (masks on of course) conducting a live fire exercise or something.   Some might call this false advertising because of the chances of actually getting into JTF2.   The fact of the matter is its a option once youve joined at least to try out for.   Why not advertise it... The recruiters can clarify the chances of joining such an elite group if the recruiter asks.
> 
> They need to really glorify it, and emphasize the options that it is open to as opposed to just showing such a friendly face.   The young people these days (at least my generation) grew up with nintendo and stimulating video games.   I mean the commercials arent horrible, but I remember the Niagra Falls Marineland commercials more then I did the Canadian Forces ones.     I say show some action!
> 
> Maybe advertise statistics like the longest snipe in record... etc.
> 
> Just a thought.



I'm not sure how old you are, but I do agree with my generation having the Nintendo's and such...they were so cool!!(I still have mine from 1988)
I think if they make the videos exciting, and also make sure they put not only the cool "hightly unlikely you'll ever do it" scenes and mix in some realistic scenes too, they really could appeal to the younger generation.

Maybe even go as far as to say that at the end of it all you have apension...that is what appeals to me since I know I am not goign to get one wiping old peoples butts for the next 25 years.... ;D


----------



## Hunter911

There should be alot of factors considered in a new recruiting add... I mean it cant be all blow stuff up... or jets zipping by, or something like that... there should also be some mention of educational benefits as well... Not to mention... it might be better to have someone in the comercial who isint over 30


----------



## Jarnhamar

It does seem like the Canadian Forces is obsessed with logistics.  

I'm certain if our commercials started showing more "real" footage of our soldiers performing in Afghanistan doing  foot and vehicle patrols, helicopters flying around, our naval boarding parties searching ships, engineers blowing stuff sky high (which is always awesome), snipers moving into their hides, the odd flash of JTF guys running around doing their thing we would still get the needed about of CSS and CS interested recruits all the while attracting more combat arms types. Maybe those combat arms types would be harder talked out of what they want to do by CFRC.


----------



## GDawg

Has anyone considered  patriotism as an inspiration to join?
Rock music and action shots are cool, but why not appeal to the heart rather than the eyes and ears?


----------



## wongskc

Maybe the CF/DND should produce their own recruting commercials instead of getting all these market research companies out of Quebec to do it.  Much cheaper and probably more effective.  I just slapped this example together in about 20 minutes.  Excuse the cheezy slogans, I just felt I should add something that would appeal to the fluffy bunny crowd:

http://army.ca/cgi-bin/album.pl?photo=ZMisc/recruiting2.jpg


----------



## Springroll

Very cool ;D...wanna produce a recruiting video??


----------



## Hunter911

I would love to try to get one of the video and design classes in my school to try and produce a Recruiting video... I dont know how well it would go over with the teachers, but it might be worth mentioning


----------



## IcEPiCk

Why dont the recruiting ads look like the operation apollo video I just watched?

Or the PPCLI video I downloaded?

If they depicted the military with those types of images / videos and music instead of the current advertisements Ive seen in circulation on television they would probably increase recruiting numbers.

Just a thought.


----------



## Expat

Its because of Canadian society. Lets face it our society doesn't see it self as an agressor, thus the ads are armed with sugar coating.


----------



## BITTER PPLCI CPL

That is why naive Canadian's won't let go of the term peacekeeper in relation to us and deployments. Canada has to accept these type of commercial's (U S army style), and I don't care if no one agree's , but image has a lot to play in one's confidence. In our case, our commercials don't seem candy coated, they're f***** gay! And not only the public see's this, the world see's this! If they show hard core combat arms training and some Op Apollo videos (even JTF training) guaranteed our image in the minds of Canadian's (and our allies) will change!​


----------



## Infanteer101

I agree with Bitter PPCLI CPL. Good thing that "Truth, Duty, Valour" is coming up with various unique videos of several unique MOCs and Courses. The Recruiting office sshould carry these episodes as it will boost the interests of folks who are wanting to join to a great extent. The PPF Course episodes have so far been my favourite! BTW, anyone know where I can download the series off of without spending a fortune? I would appreciate that.


----------



## robyn402

hey whered you find these videos?


----------



## mover1

Because mommy wouldn't let you join the public service if she thought you might get hurt.


----------



## jmackenzie_15

BITTER PPCLI CPL said:
			
		

> That is why naive Canadian's won't let go of the term peacekeeper in relation to us and deployments. Canada has to accept these type of commercial's (U S army style), and I don't care if no one agree's , but image has a lot to play in one's confidence. In our case, our commercials don't seem candy coated, they're f***** gay! And not only the public see's this, the world see's this! If they show hard core combat arms training and some Op Apollo videos (even JTF training) guaranteed our image in the minds of Canadian's (and our allies) will change!​



damn straight!!!


----------



## IcEPiCk

Yea even just showing some rapelling... Why not use JTF2 as a recruiting tool?  Its not like the Navy Seals arent shown off to the US public... People buy tickets to watch them demonstrate exercises...  We dont have to go that far but just show some footage of them breaking down a door or something cool that might raise your pulse just a bit more.  

They could discuss the dangerous times we live in (appeals to risk takers, the type of people we WANT anyways) etc etc...  Show some Afghanistan action, mention the sniper record, whatever it takes it terms of television ads...  If they werent so worried about offending people there wouldnt be a problem.  You cant please everyone, and they are trying to appeal to a certain audience like any ads.  The rest can flip the channel! 

 :threat:


----------



## Matt-Z

ummm I agree to some extent of what people are saying. The Canadian Forces have things that would appeal to more groups of people but you must take some things into consideration. Fist of all, our current recruitment video shown in various movie theaters and whatnot is not all as horrible as you say. It does have an important element. It appeals to the mass amounts of people who really need help to get through school and to help make career decision choices. I know personally one of the major reasons I'm in the CF is because I love my country and I want to be part of the great legacy that is the CF. BUT I can not deny the fact me being 16 I saw the CF as a tool to help build an education and career and wether or not I will be in the CF 20 years from now is still up in the air. Now about making our commercials more action oriented and basically telling the more passive people to change the channel. What about our more rear echelon people who would rather not being the man posting a grenade in a trench system? you can not deny the fact that they are needed just as much as an infanteer who may want combat action. When making a commercial you must appeal to as many people as possible and this may mean that the CF may have to make multiple commercials or even make them more diverse.

PS. One of the greatest accomplishments of JTF2 is the fact that they are not well known. Infact they prefer it hence their long hair to not arouse suspicion


----------



## Gayson

I'm fond of the MOC commercials the US Army has.

Each commercial highlights a different career that the US Army offers, everything from the SOF to being a clerk.

The CF does need to show some more action in the ads but I think they should still show some of the things we do now.

A variety of different ads is IMO the key.  Have ads that show videos from Op Apollo while having other ads that show more ech oriented jobs aswell as the benefits that the CF offers (Tuition, health care etc...).


----------



## 2 Cdo

I am going to say whats on my mind the last few years and it offends anyone, please realise that no offence was meant.

Our recruiting ads SUCK! They are some of the worst pieces of drivel that I have seen in years. As a member of the Combat Arms side of the house I almost feel like throwing up whenever I see them, I definitely don't feel any sense of pride in being a member of the Forces after watching them.

Now for the offensive part. I honestly think that our recruiting ads should focus more on the combat arms for the following reasons. In most Combat Arms units the Battalions, Squadrons are understrength. Some *SEVERELY* understrength. Almost everytime they deploy they end up raiding other Battalions, Squadrons to bring themselves up to full strength. We have a level of attrition that is not even remotely approached by the support trades side of the house. I understand that due to the nature of the Combat Arms and that hard, physical training extracts a toll on the body, we will lose more people than support trades. Over the years I have met a number of Canadians who have enrolled in the armies of other nations simply because they perceived that the Canadian army is all "peacekeeping, DART, and handing out treats to needy children". These are hard charging men who would have willingly joined the CF if they knew we had Combat Arms troops who actually do go out and find themselves in harms way!

To all the support trades out there, I appreciate the job you do supporting me and my troops whenever the need arises. I know there is a role for you in todays modern army and by no means is this meant to be a slag against you and yours. But lets face facts, most service support organizations are either near full strength or in some cases ABOVE strength. The people who might want to join todays army for adventure and action don't see that in todays ads, and thus we lose them to another army, one that advertises action and adventure.

The Canadian government and the military must find a way to attract more "fighters, warriors, tip of the spear types" as opposed to trying to attract more rear eschelon mother f*ckers ;D! Just one soldiers two cents worth, and if you found anything offensive in here,,,,,oh well, none was meant!


----------



## Britney Spears

> In most Combat Arms units the Battalions, Squadrons are understrength. Some SEVERELY understrength.



Can you qualify this statement? Because as far as I know it isn't true, or at least, not today. It may have been true five years ago, but it seems that we are doing quite well at meeitng recruitng goals for cbt arms these days. Training them seems to be another matter entirely. Operational shortages, again AFAIK, are principally in the CSS trades.


----------



## Blakey

First off, I have to addmitt that I haven't recently seen these "new" recruiting commercials.
But from what I can remember of the older ones, they were more of a "Tri-Service" orientated commercial ie, all 3 services (Army, Air, Navy) were advertised. I'm not sure if it has or is being done but, I have an idea. Why not go the way of the American Military and have each service do their own recruiting ads and commercials ect?. That way the Army could put out a better representation of their trade. and so forth for the other 2 elements. I actually have some ideas on this but, "What say 'Ye?)


----------



## IcEPiCk

Yea where does that leave the purple trades though?


----------



## civvy3840

Blakey said:
			
		

> First off, I have to addmitt that I haven't recently seen these "new" recruiting commercials.
> But from what I can remember of the older ones, they were more of a "Tri-Service" orientated commercial ie, all 3 services (Army, Air, Navy) were advertised. I'm not sure if it has or is being done but, I have an idea. Why not go the way of the American Military and have each service do their own recruiting ads and commercials ect?. That way the Army could put out a better representation of their trade. and so forth for the other 2 elements. I actually have some ideas on this but, "What say 'Ye?)



I think that is a good idea. I also have not seen the new recruiting videos. But I agree that it would be better if the army could make there own. Showing Infantry soldier in afghanistan, going through swamps, jumping out of planes/helicopters. JTF2 kicking in doors, clearing a plane, fast roping from a helicopter onto a building. Combat engineers taking down a bridge, clearing a minefield...

The navy could show some battleships launching rockets, showing sailors out on a dinghy boarding a ship carrying mp5's, Submarine's launching torpedos at a ship...

The airforce could show a C-130 landing on a desert strip, Griffon pilots coming in low wearing NVG's, Sea Kings launching missile's, Fighter jet doing flips and rolls while engaging with another "enemy" fighter...

By doing the commercials this way like you pointed out each element could show the stuff that they do the best.


----------



## 2 Cdo

Britney, I qualify my statements by the fact that I am serving in the Forces and I have been posted to both "Line Battalions" and am now presently with a Service Support unit. In the Battalions I have rarely had a full section (unless getting ready to deploy), in fact in some cases I've had as few as 3 total troops in a 10 man infantry section! This, sadly is usually the norm for an infantry battalion.
Presently I am employed with a service support unit that has approximately 90% of it's mandated troops. I know this because I conduct ALL their pre-deployment training, thus I know the numbers involved.
As far as your statement referring to recruitment goals, this is not the same as numbers in the units. Borden alone, mainly a service support training facility has HUNDREDS of young potential recruits sitting around waiting, sometimes for a few YEARS, for a course start date. So "as far as you know" maybe you can explain where you come up with your info, because I live with my info every day!
Have a nice day.


----------



## Armymedic

We can't have 100% of our recruiting videos showing the cool stuff like what most of you are describing because that would be a lie.

95% of the job is in the preparations, in the details, which on a screen look and are truly boring.

A mix of some action, 2 parts of professionalism and dedication to duty, with a good dose of patriotism to touch the emotions on the populations. 

This would bring an acceptace to the CF and attract a better candidate then the movie full of extreme activities that just looks cool.


----------



## Britney Spears

> So "as far as you know" maybe you can explain where you come up with your info, because I live with my info every day!



I've not seen any recruiting numbers and I haven't done a systematic survey, so you probably know more than I do.

However, I am fairly sure that the lack of deployability right now is not due to any lack of effort in recruiting, cbt arms or otherwise. Based on my own anecodtal observations, (which are, again, just that, and not a systematic survey) the raw numbers are there, as you mentions with the hundreds of recruits waiting around in PAT battalion,  but the proccess of getting them trained seems to be the big bottleneck, more so with CSS courses which are generally longer than Cbt arms courses.

I'm not downplaying the importance of recruiting. The very problem you speak of, which we did have some years ago, is the reason we are in such a pickel now. I am of the opinion that our current recruiting efforts, although not perfect, are sufficient. There is no capacity in the training system to handle more recruits, in any case, and that we should focus our efforts on more pressing matters


----------



## Infanteer

My own observations lead me to agree with Britney Spears.  Kincanucks mentions the number of people sitting around because their file has been boarded (even after making it throught he recruiting red tape gongshow) to the next selection - the training pipeline doesn't seem to be up to handling the influx of people who are interested in the CF.


----------



## Britney Spears

Also stop recruiting fat chicks. 

I mean, really, we don't need ANY of those. For ANY reason.


----------



## Infanteer

I remember hopping on the bus to head to basic and sitting by an obese 17 year old girl who was going to be an Infantry soldier.   She (naturally) failed the course, but the fact that she made it through both the Regimental recruiting office and CFRC makes me say "WTF, over?"


----------



## 2 Cdo

Britney you completely missed the point of my first post. Yes we have a huge bottleneck of troops awaiting training in Service Support trades. We don't have a huge bottleneck of Combat Arms troops awaiting training. I already pointed out where the recruiting ads seem to emphasize trades training, enough already, we have more than enough trades personnel awaiting training.
If we showed recruiting ads featuring infantry and armoured conducting combined arms attacks on exercise, or the engineers and artillery blowing stuff up we could ATTRACT more hard charging action and adventure seeking troops. It is because we don't show this that we lose these individuals to other armies, namely the Yanks, Aussies and the Brits. Funny enough these are countries that show ads like I mentioned. Do you now see what I was getting at?


----------



## Springroll

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> Also stop recruiting fat chicks.
> 
> I mean, really, we don't need ANY of those. For ANY reason.



What do you consider a fat chick?
Am I an example of a fat chick?

Just asking so that i have a better idea of what you are referring to.


----------



## Britney Spears

2 Cdo:

OK, agreed. 



> What do you consider a fat chick?
> Am I an example of a fat chick?



I haven't seen you, so I wouldn't know. Ask hubby, he probably has a pretty good idea. Ask him to draw a comparision between you and his female co-workers.  



Seriously, if you are, you'd know.


----------



## Springroll

Well, I am still curious as to what you consider a fat chick.

Are we talking Anna Nicole "fat chick"
or say Kate Winslet "fat chick"
or even Marilyn Monroe "fat chick"?


----------



## Britney Spears

I'm afraid there's nothing more I can contribute to this thread.


----------



## Infanteer

Can somebody definitively answer if there is a backlog of 031 (and other Combat Arms troops) that are stuck in the training pipeline somewhere?  Or should we be converted some STCSDES Techs waiting for their course into riflemen for a few years?


----------



## paracowboy

Springroll said:
			
		

> Well, I am still curious as to what you consider a fat chick.
> 
> Are we talking Anna Nicole "fat chick"


used to be, yes



> or say Kate Winslet "fat chick"


who? Don't bother answering.


> or even Marilyn Monroe "fat chick"?


imagine she's pretty damn skinny by now, ain't she? Kind of an extreme diet, not eating for 3 decades.


----------



## Springroll

paracowboy said:
			
		

> imagine she's pretty damn skinny by now, ain't she? Kind of an extreme diet, not eating for 3 decades.



I was meaning while she was alive...she was a size 12 which most men nowadays consider a "fat chick".


----------



## Infanteer

Quit throwing the thread off with discussions about your BMI.


----------



## KevinB

paracowboy said:
			
		

> used to be, yes
> who? Don't bother answering.imagine she's pretty damn skinny by now, ain't she? Kind of an extreme diet, not eating for 3 decades.



 ;D

Fat Chicks... ah

 A For effort  

As far as the CF goes - WTF all the french chicks seem to be hot - ever take over from a 5 Bde tour - WOW - then the English chicks come in and they have to redo bridges and rebar the mess.

 and now dry tours - you can't get away from the fact there fat...  :blotto:

Springroll - methinks thou protest too much.


----------



## Springroll

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Quit throwing the thread off with discussions about your BMI.



Forgive me for trying to get someone to clarify what they meant by "fat chicks". 

"Fat Chicks" can lose the excess weight, but dumb a**es on the other hand...well, there is no help for them.
I would sooner serve beside a "fat chick" than someone who doesn't have any CDF.


----------



## Infanteer

You want a clarification.  Here you go:


----------



## Springroll

thank you for clearing that up. :-*


----------



## 48Highlander

the one on the bottom right looks kinda familiar....


----------



## KevinB

Flash me that pic in another 15 beer


----------



## the 48th regulator

Well it is a shame that sometimes, to be a fat chick and a Dumb aise go hand in hand at times,

The one in Red looks like a Salad Girl from Pet. from the Matawa training site era '95...

Ahh the Salad girls and their Hunter Killer side kicks...

dileas

tess


----------



## KevinB

tess - I have a shameful Pet secret...  :-[

 I knew it was bad when she dwarfed the Sherman and 2 25lb'er at the SSF 'monument' on the way into base...


----------



## the 48th regulator

hahaha,

Kev brother, you and I both, you and I both!!!!

The pains of drinking beer in Sassy's and heading to Banana Pete's for a Night cap!

dileas


----------



## Armymedic

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> hahaha,
> 
> Kev brother, you and I both, you and I both!!!!
> 
> The pains of drinking beer in Sassy's and heading to Banana Pete's for a Night cap!
> 
> dileas



Both of which are gone now...

Thanks Springroll for sidetracking an otherwise good discussion...

BTW if you hieght/width at the hips ration is greater the 2:1 then chances are you are fat...ie your 5 ft tall, but 3 ft across the hips..your probably fat

and yes we have "those" in the military. If you have a problem with it pm me and do't waste the bandwidth here.

So how do we go back to recruiting high school and college graduates?


----------



## KevinB

Have cool recruiting stuff.
 Film a DA - heck just the MOE dude putting a few 12ga. into a door near the stack is sexier than the gaydar videos they have now.

 Given me three hours in Edmonton I could put a cool video together.  Of course it might insinuate the CF killed people so I guess that out  :


----------



## Island Ryhno

The recruiting ads et al now, suck. If you are a pointy end type, which most people on this site are. The problem of course is if you lean too hard on showing off the combat arms side then you may scare off a lot of the CSS types. And you need the CSS types as much as you need the pointy end types. Now I know that there are more candidates for the CSS type jobs, but if you completely ignore them when recruiting then five years down the road, well we are going to have the same sort of shortage problems with skilled people as we have now getting combat arms types. I thing the answer has to be individual recruiting campaigns, Navy does theirs, Airforce does theirs, Army does theirs AND you get a different drive for Combat arms with all the cool shit videos of Para's and JTF2 and everything else kids off the street want to be. I think it's the only way to make it appeal to everyone. And we kinda of need all types.


----------



## ChopperHead

The best thing to do so that you can appeal to everyone CSS and combat arms is to have several different adds aimed diffrent people. For example the US navy comercials have some showing the navy seals and fighters and all sorts of combat related stuff with some heavy metal music playing in the background while they also have another one where they have young people talking about how the Navy gave them confidence to succeed in life and now they own their own business etc etc. So I think that if we should keep the current ads that the CF has and ad some more combat related commercials so that way you appeal to everyone.



Kyle.


----------



## BITTER PPLCI CPL

First of all I enjoy reading the post's and threads on this site because there interesting and it's good to know where our military member's are at (even reservists). However some of the replies, and conversation's are as dumb as the one's on militaryphotos.net. Back to the main topic, there is a poster out there that say's,"it's not about the gadgets". Now obviously someone at NDHQ designed this and did not research it. The sillouette used is that of a U. S. Army Soldier carrying an M249 and it's also the ad for Wiley-x goggles/glasses. If there is a serious problem about our ads and poster's for recruiting, this poster show's it starts way at the top! :s​alute:


----------



## KevinB

Actually its a CF soldier with our issue (but only for deployment) kit.


----------



## Teddy Ruxpin

And it's an _internal_ Army poster, not a recruiting poster...


----------



## the 48th regulator

> First of all I enjoy reading the post's and threads on this site because there interesting and it's good to know where our military member's are at (even reservists). However some of the replies, and conversation's are as dumb as the one's on militaryphotos.net. Back to the main topic, there is a poster out there that say's,"it's not about the gadgets". Now obviously someone at NDHQ designed this and did not research it. The sillouette used is that of a U. S. Army Soldier carrying an M249 and it's also the ad for Wiley-x goggles/glasses. If there is a serious problem about our ads and poster's for recruiting, this poster show's it starts way at the top! :s
> alute:



Well I guess you have proven that one, and thanks for enjoyng "even our reservists" posts, as we definately are entertained by yours.

dileas

tess


----------



## BITTER PPLCI CPL

KevinB, take a good look at the picture. Our C-9's don't have that type of front sight, not even on deployments, and second, you can see the stock. It's the collapseble type as on the American M249! Did you design the poster, because your just as blind. That's another thing that is wrong with our Army, afraid to admit when something is wrong!


----------



## Britney Spears

Mmm yup. KevinB the NDHQ/DLR/CTS apologist, always toeing the party line....


----------



## the 48th regulator

> Did you design the poster, because your just as blind. That's another thing that is wrong with our Army, afraid to admit when something is wrong!



Ladies and Gents,

The shot you just heard, which by the way was directed into the shooter's foot, is the commencement of meltdown...

dileas

tess


----------



## BITTER PPLCI CPL

That's the only comment you could come up with, with all of your weekend experiance!


----------



## the 48th regulator

hehehe,

yep, it's that is all that I would want to waste on a pro like yourself.

dileas

and go get some sleep, yer getting too cranky and wound up.

tess


----------



## BITTER PPLCI CPL

Cranky! Haven't you read my name, it' not HAPPY PPLCI CPL!


----------



## the 48th regulator

Ahh touche,

You got me on that one brother, man you have got gumption, that's for sure. 

Too bad you couldn't focus it on more posts describing your experiences and the like.  Maybe we can understand where you're coming from, and see your angst (shite, can't believe I used that word)

dileas

tess


----------



## BITTER PPLCI CPL

That's probabley true 48th, jesus maybe I should get to bed, anyways see online tomorrow (if the d-staff don't boot me soon) ah christ the basement flooded.....


----------



## the 48th regulator

Cheers brother,

Get some rest so you aint too tired to sort out 'em SQ bags of toys...

dileas

tess


----------



## KevinB

:

 Its called a C9A2.

 Some of the Para barrel they tried had the hood.  Its got the Old rear sight and steel M1913 rail.  A C8 telestock completes the mix.

 The NV is the PVS-14 MNVG - which we issue - the US does too - but outside SOF and the Abn units they are less common for US troops than the PVS-7D (especially SAW gunners)

 - NDHQ appologist signing off  :


----------



## paracowboy

If you really wanna complain about the stupid posters (And I do. Often.) take another look at the "Change The Way We Train" one, and tell me what's wrong with it.


----------



## Bomber

Deconstruct those poster a different way, look for what is right, it ends up being a shorter list than listing all the faults, out dated kit, and PC wack stuff.

A note on Fatties versus Dummies for Springroll, Assuming your dummy is reasonable fit, they can do their job, because they are actually there, depending on the fatties is hard because they are often, left behind, to winded to even speak let alone shoot or signal, or at the MIR trying to build a case to support their own personal agendas "The CF gave me Diabetes from feeding me all that delicious food" or "my ankles hurt cause I held a chair down for to long so they aren't used to marching anymore".  From your picture, you don;t look like a fatty as it is not a wide angle lens you are using.  One last word, is there are some people defined as thick, be it in the head or in the body, many people fit this category, and complete every challenge well, not exceptionally, but well. 

I will also try and find the original picture of the guy with the C9A2.  And I totally agree that if we advertised a bunch more of the gnarly stuff the army does it would get us a bunch more of the people we want.  Even when they do show theatre pictures or videos, it is all to often of people standing, posing, smiling, waving, picking noses, or handing stuff out.  I would love to see more video's of men and women in uniform doing more soldierly stuff, maybe a live fire company attack through NV camera?  A para COY in action, an arty REGIMENT doing a shake and bake with HE and WP 10 rounds about FFE should do it, Engineers blowing the holy hell out of something big, and the armour laying the nuts to some really well placed targets.  I know, we need people to refuel trucks and serve in kitchens, but it seems that the public is getting the image that all we do is feed the truck drivers who then drive the cooks to a new kitchen where they stop for some IV's on the way, and then look through sextants.  

Last point, the worst photo I ever saw was the one with two hard charging soldiers booting it out of a LAV 3 while another soldier stood there with her arms crossed, wearing her Wide Brimmed Combat hat, no cam, no weapon, and looking like a real tough something.  That sent the worst message ever, I still don't know what it was, and won;t post what I think it was saying, but come on.


----------



## Bomber

Found someone that looks stragely familiar

http://www.militarycity.com/gogglegiveaway/images/goggle_01.gif


----------



## BITTER PPLCI CPL

Hey Bomber I definitly second your post. I have friend back home who have seen the U. S. Navy ad with the Navy Seal's and they thought that was the coolest thing ever, then they aske me if we had a unit like that. Make the commercial's trade specific and give it that edge, no one ever agrees with me, image goes along way and a cool one could boost our recruiting! Second, that's the poster I'm talking about. Now look at the angle of the stock, that is not a C-8 stock KevinB, I'm not trying to start a 67 post topic, anyways I'll talk to you soon KevinB. ​


----------



## BITTER PPLCI CPL

I know I know, this is the last. The C9A2's aren't even in the system yet and also about the poster, this weapon has heat shield's, we don't use em, anyways I'll shush now! ;D


----------



## a_majoor

Watching an American TV channel last night and saw a very interesting "segmentation" of the market: US Navy ads played one after the other (consecutive commercial breaks) with one being the "Navy Seal" ad, one about preparing for your future (The one about the person who now owns a business? I heard that one from the kitchen), and one which had the tag line "Rocket science is more fun when you have rockets!" 

Just like ads for cars have to be tailored for the market you are looking for, our ads have to be tailored as well. CSS types will be far more in tune with ads for mechanics fixing high speed kit than ones showing troops jumping from G-Wagons.

This is not to say that the ads should be as accurate as possible (show commonly available kit, make sure the soldiers/actors are correctly dressed and equipped for what they are supposed to be doing), and we could lay off the PC stuff as well; anyone who is willing to come through the door, work hard and share the same conditions that I do is just the person I want.


----------



## Springroll

My favorite is the Marine commercial with the guy climbing that rock face and he reaches the top and seems to transform into the sharp uniform(yummy!)....I love that one!!


----------



## KevinB

C9A2's are in the system - My unit had them in Afghan.

 The Inf School SA cell is playing with heat sheilds (god knows why) and different Flash Hiders for the C9 and C6's.

*DLR and CTS appologist out


----------



## Bomber

I am just more impressed with the ads for US technical schools where guys are making guidance systems for their armies, or NVG systems and stuff, you know the ones you see on stuff like Horsepower TV, where they go from tinkering in their garage to maintaining an Abrams, note, maintaining it, not fueling it, washing it, painting it, but actually working on big machines.  I think we could learn a lot form our NATO Allies WRT gaining, holding and maintaining the interest of our potential recruits.  Eventually this thread will move away from getting them in the door and flow to getting them in the regiment, but that is another story.  Because really, who has 10 months to wait around for a phone call, unless it was the only job applied for?  Maybe we need to invest more in our sports teams, not just our "special athletes" Make a bunch of semi pro teams capable of playing others in some big time sports, There must be a few Junior's we could lure out of the provincial leagues.  I'm sorry, I don;t know where the last part is going, so much frustration, and not enough fingers to type with.


----------



## Island Ryhno

And where the hell does the CF get it's ad people? I've NEVER seen a commercial for the CF on the biggest testosterone fest in Canada on a weekly basis. Anybody out there ever heard of Hockey Night In Canada, for christ sakes, Don Cherry gives free publicity to the forces, sign him up. Every saturday night, half the countrys male population age 17-40 are watching HNIC, don't you think the damn show should be plastered with CF ads. Somebody sign me up, I need to get those commercials on HNIC.


----------



## bossi

Island Ryhno said:
			
		

> ... Every saturday night, half the countrys male population age 17-40 are watching HNIC, don't you think the darn show should be plastered with CF ads. Somebody sign me up, I need to get those commercials on HNIC.



Couldn't agree with you more - hockey's a team sport, one of our national sports (nicknamed "War On Ice"), and our Army needs all the nationalistic team players we can get ...


----------



## IcEPiCk

Very true...

Target the right audience and they right crowd will flock... 

We need to improve ads, and speed up recruiting times (its kinda wrong when you can get pregnant and have a baby faster then you can get into the Canadian Forces).

We need to have different ads targetting different 'groups' of trade... For example one would target potential Sig Ops, COMM Research Ops, etc...  Another completely with combat engineer and infantry... etc.  Emphasize there is a trade for everyone's interests.


----------



## Armymedic

IcEPiCk said:
			
		

> We need to improve ads, and speed up recruiting times (its kinda wrong when you can get pregnant and have a baby faster then you can get into the Canadian Forces).



Hey now theres is an idea for the left side of our society...

Join the CF, get pregnant and have your baby...with the CF to take care of you. You can have your family between basic training and the time you actually begin work...with a 3 yr contract, we should get 3 months of productive work from you.

How un PC of me.


----------



## Springroll

LMAO!!


----------



## IcEPiCk

> Join the CF, get pregnant and have your baby...with the CF to take care of you. You can have your family between basic training and the time you actually begin work...with a 3 yr contract, we should get 3 months of productive work from you.
> 
> How un PC of me.



Im just saying 9 months is a long time to wait to get in....   (Hence the "speed up recruiting time" statement)...   

If thats directed at me specifically you can go ahead and put words in my mouth...   

 >



> Hey now theres is an idea for the left side of our society...



Yes speed up recruiting time... The idea is so far left I think David Miller might have spoke to me in my sleep and gave me it.   

 :


----------



## Chimo

I went to our recruiting site on DND.CA and could not see and obvious recruiting slogan. The American Army one is well know...Army of One.

What is our present slogan? :-\


And what do you suggest for a more catchy recruiting slogan? (Remember it has to encompass the whole CF and not just the Army.)


----------



## George Wallace

I Believe that our new one is "One Army"


----------



## Chimo

Roger that..One Army, One Team, One Vision. 

Makes me wonder why we still insist on calling it Land Force 

I still think we need something catchier and more appropriate. Ideas?


----------



## SemperFidelis

So i spent a little while playing around with a logo...and a title...

CF:3D  

meaning..its a 3 dimensional military (land air sea), you could also look at it from the 3D ( diplomacy, defence and development )approach, and the 3 block war concept

here i made a logo too


----------



## Ranman

SemperFidelis said:
			
		

> So i spent a little while playing around with a logo...and a title...
> 
> CF:3D
> 
> meaning..its a 3 dimensional military (land air sea), you could also look at it from the 3D ( diplomacy, defence and development )approach, and the 3 block war concept
> 
> here i made a logo too



*I like how you got the whole Navy in the shot!*


----------



## Dakota

SemperFidelis: You are very good and I like to see that you are going to be a Combat Engineer. Nice work.


----------



## Jaxson

dude, that is sweet, and i like it.


----------



## SemperFidelis

thanks...and its dudette     Ive always been artsy-fartsy...so figured..why not?


----------



## NavComm

That is really well done!


----------



## SemperFidelis

Air Force : Chair Force
Navy : Rainbow Coallition
Army.....cant touch that one

im just kidding guys


----------



## Boogilywoo

Instead of a slogan we should just have two and a half minutes of heavy metal music


----------



## Delta

how about "Drinking fear, eating danger and crapping out victory." kinda for someone who like living life on the edge


----------



## Chimo

Boogilywoo said:
			
		

> Instead of a slogan we should just have two and a half minutes of heavy metal music



Yeah, ah no.  ???






			
				Delta said:
			
		

> how about "Drinking fear, eating danger and crapping out victory." kinda for someone who like living life on the edge



Yeahhhhhhh, NOT!  :


----------



## patrick666

I thought it was "Strong, proud" ... I like that one... 

Cheers


----------



## kitrad1

One Army, One Team, One Vision... isn't that the slogan for the internal information campaign?


----------



## P-Free

No point in stupid mottos or flashy advertising, just gets peoples hopes up and then they have them crushed...


----------



## Chimo

P-Free said:
			
		

> No point in stupid mottos or flashy advertising, just gets peoples hopes up and then they have them crushed...



Perhaps you could be more specific... have your hopes and dreams been crushed? I have had nothing but a worthwhile, honourable and exciting career. Full of travel to exotic countries, strange illnesses, and meeting and working some of the finest people in the country of Canada.  Many are true heroes.


----------



## Dakota

Here here Chimo. I salute you


----------



## Nemo888

"Join the Canadian Army! We won't mess your head up as much as the Marines."


----------



## Gunnar

I love the f'n government, cuz the government loves f'n me....?

Don't even know if we HAVE a slogan.  You'd think if they're gonna hire that 5K more, they'd at least try to market a bit...


----------



## SemperFidelis

The Site was just updated....I was on it yesterday, and it had the old school look...I went back today,  and its starting to look more bada$$!!!

http://www.cflrs.forces.gc.ca/



I made a new topic for this....but thought itd be only appropriate to post it here..


----------



## liamstephen

Just took a peek at IAP etc.  This is great ... what detail ... and I like the layout too ...


----------



## P-Free

Chimo said:
			
		

> Perhaps you could be more specific... have your hopes and dreams been crushed? I have had nothing but a worthwhile, honourable and exciting career. Full of travel to exotic countries, strange illnesses, and meeting and working some of the finest people in the country of Canada.  Many are true heroes.



Mine..? No..

Those people who joined because of the cool vids and advertising...hmmm..maybe....

P......


----------



## TCBF

And the condos....

Tom


----------



## bossi

I've always figued the recruiting slogan is an indicator of what type of person will be attracted ...
For example:
US Army WWI, WWII:   "I want YOU for the US Army" - no, not you - sit down, loser - I was pointing at the fit, intelligent guy behind you ...
US Army 1981-2001:   "Be all you can be" - nothing wrong with this challenge to achieve your full potential.
British Army:   "Be The Best" - otherwise, don't even bother ...
Australian Army:   "The Army. The Edge"   - gotta luv the Aussies, eh?
US Army 2001- :   "An Army Of One" - what was wrong with the old one ... ?
USAF:   "Aim High" - kewl!
Old US Navy:   "It's not a job, it's an adventure" - hopefully weeding out those who are "only looking for a job" ...
Classic USMC:   "The Few, The Proud" - politically correct version of "We're Looking For A Few Good Men"
Favourite USMC:   "Nobody wants to fight, but somebody has to know how" - hopefully instills the idea that we don't start/go looking for a fight, but if one comes looking for us ... we'll finish it.

US SF:   "People don't join us because we're special - they join because they are." - hmmm ...

And then we've got the Canadian slogans:

"There's no life like it" - somebody looking for a unique lifestyle (or a cushy job)
"It's your life, your future" - meh.
"Explore The Possibilities: Navy, Army, Air Force." - please, PLEASE tell me the taxpayers' money didn't pay some marketing genius for THAT ...
"Proud, proven, professional" - somebody who wants to be professional/proud of what they do
"Strong. Proud: Today's Canadian Forces" - the successor ... hmmm ... "Strong and Proud" ... why does that sound so familiar, in a patriotic kind of way ...

Or, the relatively new Canadian Army motto:   "We Stand On Guard" - slouchers need not apply.


----------



## GDawg

In the Comm Res we have

"Your Pride, Your Future, Your Move..."

but that appears to have faded out of sight recently, I kinda liked that one!


----------



## Meridian

This is probably best answered by someone in the DND marketing department..   OR maybe someone in recruiting would know the  official verisons.

People appear to be confusing the army with the forces as a whole... clearly the "One army, One..." motto would be for the army only, not the CF.  2 years ago I believe the CF advertising motto was "Strong, Proud..."  and the recruiting "slogan", was "Your pride... your move."  Not sure if this is still the case.


----------



## jerrythunder

One Army? never heared of that one before, and if it is actually a slogan of ours then either the americans have taken all the good slogans or it was an actual US recruiting slogan.  i think we need some new recruiting stratagies and slogans that appeal more to the younger crowd. Stratagies that show that the CF isnt just a place where u go to fight other ppl and possibly die, but a place of opportunity to do good for your country and other country;s, a place where afordable education is avaliable, and where noumerous opportunities lie waiting for the right person.( well im not in it for the education really, maybe just map reading and survival, i just love the infantry! HOOAH!)


----------



## Meridian

To be honest, I'd argue against that....

All the people I was with were well-versed on the "opportunities" available in the forces, and IMVHO, not enough of them were actually interested in serving their country.


----------



## InfantryWannabee

I mean, if you go to the US Army's site (goarmy.com) they have a series of videos following an entire 9 week basic training session, going really in depth, interviewing each recruit, and taking looks at each small part of the training. On our site, we have these outdated looking videos for each trade, wherein the narrator and people talking seem fully intent on making the military seem as boring an unnatractive as humanly possible. And I know we do have one 25 minute looking at the Basic Training of a group of Navy recruits, however, it just wasn't that exciting at all, and didn't show anything that I think would draw your average person to the forces. I simply didn't get any of the same feeling of "Man, I really wanna sign up as soon as I can" as I did from the US videos. Also, the "Strong. Proud" video they show on TV isn't that good. It's too short, and doesn't show anything particularly exciting. So yeah, I'm still intent on joining up, but I think the Forces would get a lot more intent if they made themselves look "cooler" and more exciting to the public.


----------



## CBH99

I agree.   Although this topic has been covered in several other threads, a moderator should probably lock it up before it gets too in-depth.{merged] Bruce

For a good comparison though:   think of the CF recruiting ads on TV right now.   Pretty generic, somewhat vague, big in teamwork and good spirits and some cool photography and videowork, lacking when it comes to details about trades, programs, incentives, or anything like that.

I saw a US Navy (Personally, I think they have some of the coolest videos out there) recruiting ad the other day.   It had a cool drumbeat in the background to get your juices going, then a cool video snapwork of a crewman onboard a naval ship looking at a hostile target with pinpoint precision, and a team of SEALs slowly slipping through the shadows to take it out.   Short, but attention grabbing and cool, and it mentioned various incentives such as doing online-degrees while serving and having tuition paid.   It also mentioned a new program to have college professors onboard naval ships to assist sailors in their studies.

I know the legal questions arise from having professionals onboard warships, unless they are military professors.   Point remains though, informative and attention grabbing.   We should look at doing something similar.


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## ThatsLife

go to http://www.marines.com/page/usmc.jsp and check out their flash intro...that is what we need. We don't want videos showing soldiers 10 years ago in the old olive camo at a shooting range. We need fast-paced adrenalyn pumping military advertising..


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## Peace

About 3 weeks back i was tasked to a study for upcomming recruitment issues...

They had tasked about 10 of us out and we just sat in a room and were givin four different angles in which the CF was perhaps planning on proceeding and making into full commercials...

I was NOT very content with the ideas they had given....  most were corny and kinda "american" in nature.  But if there was one thing that i could bring away form it is that they will grab attention....

And dont blame me if you get the word "fight" BURNED into your sub concious :skull:


----------



## kcdist

Didn't want to reinvent the wheel, so I found an old subject that definitely needs new discussions.

This past weekend, I came across yet another (lame) CF advertisement. This one was worse than most. It featured the slogan "I'm looking for: A career I'll take pride in:" and discussed that a wide range of careers were available, along with specialized training, and the kicker - _subsidized education _!

Now, if that wasn't enough to get the imagination and juices flowing, the image sure was  :. It was actually two images, with one superimposed over another. The primary image was of a first nations woman in old style combats. She had her sleeves rolled up about three rolls to the midpoint of her forarms. She was bespectacled, and was sporting a ponytail. She was without headgear, and her head was turned to face the camera as she appeared to be working with a socket wrench.

This image was superimposed over another of a male and female with baseball caps, in what appears to be a navy control room.

Now, if I were a young 18 year old male, with testosterone flowing, looking for adventure and belonging, looking for something that would have me beeming with pride, this campain would have the same effect on me as an advertisement for feminine hygiene products.

I'm definitely not an expert here, but either I don't get it, or, I think, more accurately, the CF recruiting department doesn't get it. If they need inspiration on what motivates young men IMHO, look south. Watch the U.S. ads that air during major sporting events. As a middle-aged man, when I see the USMC ads, it makes me want to cross the border and join (if only for a minute).

If, as I understand it to be, the combat arms are constantly struggling to meet it's goals with quality personnel, and with greater challenges on the horizon, why does the CF continually produce ads that seem to appeal more to clients in a woman's shelter than to a strapping young lad right out of high school.

Focus on true toughness, the current anti-terrorist mission, guns and more guns, and maybe even a little bit of patriotism. How about using that famous sniper picture from WW2 (the one with the moustached guy with the bandanna), and have it morph into a sniper of today?

By removing the constraints imposed by touchy-feely, equal opportunity, multi-cult pap, the CF could produce a series of campains that would have the youth of the nation clamouring to join, allowing for the selection of the best of the best.

But, of course, not likely to happen. So sad.


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## ZipperHead

I have to agree wholeheartedly on this one. We (the Armour Corps) had a goal of recruiting 300+ in the last year, and ended up at roughly 50% of that (150). I'm sure the reasons are many and varied, but one can't help but feel that these types of ad campaigns don't do anything to create line-ups outside the door of the Recruiting Centers of gung-ho, snake eating young go-getters. I think it puts off a lot of people, and recruits the wrong kind of people (the one's who think that the military is a cake-walk, and a place to cultivate the sand that they have in their fallopian tubes/mangina into a beautiful pearl).

One day, when I'm the CDS/PM/MND......

Al


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## GDawg

I'm gonna go on record as saying I like the Canadian army website, especially the flash introduction, its a great springboard for a modernized ad campaign. I think its important to have the Army, Navy and Airforce form their own "theme" for recruiting and pursue them independently through ADM(PA), as long as they receive funding that realistically reflects their needs, I.E. If the Army needs more people than the Navy, and the Navy needs more people than the Airforce the "air-time" allotted to each needs to reflect that.

Recruiting is a tough job, especially for the Comm Res, its hard to get more obscure than us. I also feel a separate ad campaign for the reserve elements is in order, I realize we are "One Team" but the reserves do present different challenges and opportunities WRT employment and training that need to be made apparent to the Canadian public.

For the most part, the CFRG and individual units and their recruiters are taking the CDS directives regarding recruiting to heart, but it certainly seems that ADM(PA) isn't quite on the same page as the rest of us. Most people on this forum likely agree with my above statement, and if anyone "in the know" has heard otherwise please post it here or PM me about it.


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## Guy. E

I don't know if it is particularly my place to bring this up, however I think that it would be worthy of discussion here.

Please excuse me if i have some military terms mixed up here.

For the past few years when I watch TV, especially recently I see a hard recruiting drive by both the US and Canadian forces. Over a short period of time I have noticed that the Canadian commercials are incoperating more action similar to the US commercials and less people smiling standing beside what they do with a quote "This may be the challenge your looking for" I think it is. 

I think that to attract more people to the forces especially infantry (which the recruiters seem to push for the most) they should incorporate more action in the short TV Spots. For example a battery the exceptionally cool M777's, laying waste to targets down range, Showing AF pilots working with international NATO pilots out in Goose Bay? and Cold Lake. They could show a more tactical side of the Navy perhaps displaying weapons systems like the Flalix ? Hell, try to get people interested in JTF2, thats where people want to be right? just like in the movies...

CFRC could also advertise specifically more technical trades like ACS, AVN, VEH, etc... There is allot to advertise regarding the CF for a technical and adventurous career. I just don't think that CFRC is tapping in to they're full potential. People want to be smart and not pay a dime for it. heres your chance. Get in, do your time, learn your trade and hopefully stay 10- 15 years.

Perhaps what we need is more public displays of the capabilities of the CF. When I talk to my friends (usually form 17- 22 (I would think the target age group for recruiting)) All they can say is "Our subs suck/ sink", "Our helicopters are shit", " Our Army sucks". The problem in my eyes here is trying to get over the crappy media thats more interested in how many times Brittany Spears got married and showing what our collective Army can really do.

Even when it comes down to advertising on the highway buses. I just don't think that it is "doing it" for people my age. I think they need to be more aggressive, not a woman in Navy fatigues smiling with a ship in the back ground, or someone in combats cammed up painted on the back of the bus. We need "More".

I'm sure that I'm missing lots here, so please discuss and fill in the blanks.

(I tried my best to use proper grammar and sentence structure/ etc...) 


Edward Guy


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## Bograt

Guy. E said:
			
		

> I just don't think that it is "doing it" for people my age. I think they need to be more aggressive, not a woman in Navy fatigues smiling with a ship in the back ground, or someone in combats cammed up painted on the back of the bus. We need "More"



You need more motivation to serve your country? Your friends need more motivation to serve their country? 

It is an honour and privilage to wear the flag on my shoulder. I didn't need to be convinced.


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## Guy. E

I don't need to be convinced, I'll be second gen once I'm sworn in (I have my service number already). At least to the people around here, they would rather spend 12K on a heavy duty mechanics course at the local colledge then serve they're country and do the same thing because the forces dont look that great...


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## geo

Guy,
when you get down to it, there is a limit to how much someone can stuff into a 30 or 60 second spot on TV.... but you are right that some of our old ads were a little bit too "nice, nice".
With respect to some of the media ribbing we've gotten about some of the clapped out equipment we have - we can thank the gov't for that. With luck, over 4-6 yrs our current (&next) CDS should put some of the things in place to resolve that subject.

You're right that blue bird buses and the road cruisers on the highway don't inspire people who want to join. I remember people's reaction to being passed on the Highway by a convoy ov LAVs & Coyotes moving at speed...... Yeah - Sexy!

With respect to "selling" all the trades.... people get interested in the army for what it is; a fighting force, not a bunch of clerks & storemen. It's the nature of the beast. Once they walk into the Recruiting centre & talk to the recruiters.... that's when you discuss the range of options opened.... else you'll find someone who will go thru the whole recruiting process only to balk at the end when he's told he needs a haircut AND wear a uniform (it's happened).


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## aluc

Guy E. does have somewhat of a point though. Have you seen some of the USMC commercials....they make me wanna ....well you don't want to know what they make me wanna do in my pants! Well, they make me want to become a marine and I'm not even a yank! :threat:


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## 2 Cdo

More emphasis on combat arms trades is what is needed! We are horribly short of fighting troops right now, but every support unit I have come across is either at or exceeded their troop strength! If this keeps up we will have to send our clerks and cooks up into the mountains to hunt for al Queda! 

This is not a slam towards the support arms side of the house as I realise that we are all part of the team and all serve a vital role but the harsh reality is we NEED more fighters right now, we don't need more support people right now!

Have a nice day!


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## Thompson_JM

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> More emphasis on combat arms trades is what is needed! We are horribly short of fighting troops right now, but every support unit I have come across is either at or exceeded their troop strength! If this keeps up we will have to send our clerks and cooks up into the mountains to hunt for al Queda!
> 
> This is not a slam towards the support arms side of the house as I realise that we are all part of the team and all serve a vital role but the harsh reality is we NEED more fighters right now, we don't need more support people right now!
> 
> Have a nice day!



And From a reserve perspective I wish they would train us a little better in the whole Combat side of things.... some of the guys here in the Mo need a gentle reminder that there is no such thing as a rear echlon anymore, and that the front line is anything outside the wire.... but I digress... our ads do need more aggression and Gung-ho-ness in them... maybe instead of trying to show all branches and aspects in ONE commercial, perhaps they could make several different ones.. highlighting different areas of the CF where there is a need for troops... Im willing to bet you show a bunch of Infanteers doing house clearing in Pet, and Hollywood it up a little with some music and such, you'll have alot more people thinking "hey, I wanna do that".  

Personally 2 Cdo, even as a reservist there are times when I wish we would do a little more Base Defense, Patrolling, and Combat Type Ex's rather then a million DP's where 90% of the time the user unit is a notional one (Read: Imaginary)...

Oh well, it seems the SOP's are slowly changing, hopefully a change in training will not be too far behind.

Cheers
     Josh


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## civvy3840

Yesterday I saw a CF ad on TV when i was watching the Olympics. It was MUCH better then ones I have seen before, but I still think they should show way more action and less people sitting around and watching a radar screen. 

That also got me wondering, out of the whole time I watched the Olympics that was the only CF ad I saw. So I was wondering if they expect the ads to work why not have them on TV more? Especially during the Olympics, almost everyone in the country watched them when they were on!


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## The Gues-|-

Bograt said:
			
		

> You need more motivation to serve your country? Your friends need more motivation to serve their country?
> 
> It is an honour and privilage to wear the flag on my shoulder. I didn't need to be convinced.




Sounds great.  Smells like BS.  You didn't have to be convinced to join the CF? You just did it without hesitation because you wanted to wear the flag on your shoulder?


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## Pte_Martin

The Gues-|- said:
			
		

> Sounds great.  Smells like BS.  You didn't have to be convinced to join the CF? You just did it without hesitation because you wanted to wear the flag on your shoulder?



I know i didn't need to be convinced! I joined the res in high school and i loved it and now I'm waiting for my transfer to go through to go reg and i can't wait for that to happen!


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## canadianblue

> You need more motivation to serve your country? Your friends need more motivation to serve their country?
> 
> It is an honour and privilage to wear the flag on my shoulder. I didn't need to be convinced.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds great.  Smells like BS.  You didn't have to be convinced to join the CF? You just did it without hesitation because you wanted to wear the flag on your shoulder?



I've always been interested in the joining the military. I didn't need some recruiting commercial to convince me, as for the remarks that they should show "cool" stuff like in the movies, no they shouldn't. All it'll mean is people will be dissapointed when they find out its not like in the movies. If you really want to become a soldier then you'll join up as a soldier. Perhaps making the job more interesting for members, as well as getting rid of some of the BS associated with the job will get more people to join up. As well getting rid of the month long waiting times at PRETC will do wonders for the image of the CF.


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## GGHG_Cadet

civvy3840 said:
			
		

> Yesterday I saw a CF ad on TV when i was watching the Olympics. It was MUCH better then ones I have seen before, but I still think they should show way more action and less people sitting around and watching a radar screen.
> 
> That also got me wondering, out of the whole time I watched the Olympics that was the only CF ad I saw. So I was wondering if they expect the ads to work why not have them on TV more? Especially during the Olympics, almost everyone in the country watched them when they were on!



When were you watchin the olympics? I was watching them yesterday morning and a little in the afternoon, I counted at least 8 CF commercials through that time period. I certainly saw that they are stepping the commercials up, from rarely ever to 8 over a short time period. The only negative is that the commercial I saw was the same every time and it is at least 3 or 4 years old.


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## Big Foot

Seems the CF is now advertising on TSN.ca, too. I only hope there are new ads coming down the pipe soon, the old one is well, errr, not very inspiring.


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## Jaxson

The Gues-|- said:
			
		

> Sounds great.  Smells like BS.  You didn't have to be convinced to join the CF? You just did it without hesitation because you wanted to wear the flag on your shoulder?




I didnt need to be convinced to apply, mind you im still waiting but that doesnt change a thing, Heck, i convinced 4 of my friends to get in the car and come and talk to the recruiters and apply with me, thats a different story though. Why would you need to be convinced that serving your country is the right thing to do ? does pride and patriotism not serve enough of a reason?.


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## civvy3840

GGHG_Cadet said:
			
		

> When were you watching the olympics? I was watching them yesterday morning and a little in the afternoon, I counted at least 8 CF commercials through that time period. I certainly saw that they are stepping the commercials up, from rarely ever to 8 over a short time period. The only negative is that the commercial I saw was the same every time and it is at least 3 or 4 years old.



I didn't get to watch long yesterday, had places to go. But I meant through out the entire time not only oneday.


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## nULL

I've been in the army since coffee break, but if I remember correctly a psychological exam was not part of the enlistment procedure. I personally liked the CF commercials which were espoused as too "nice."

I felt that they served to raise the profile of the forces to those who were interested in a respectable, challenging, professional career; these individuals may have previously discredited the military as a source of serious employment due to stereotypes propagated in commercials that appeal to adrenaline junkies, 15 year olds doing poorly in school, and people incapable of representing the Canadian Forces in a professional capacity. 

What type of people are you trying to attract to the Canadian Forces? I would argue that those who join for the pride and long-term professional development will have a higher retention rate then those who join in order to get into JTF-2. At the very least, those who seek ever greater challenges will push themselves to reach ever higher echelons within the organization, unlike someone for whom the initial adrenaline rush inevitably disappates.


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## Bograt

The Gues-|- said:
			
		

> Sounds great.  Smells like BS.  You didn't have to be convinced to join the CF? You just did it without hesitation because you wanted to wear the flag on your shoulder?



Yes. 

I would suggest that you fill out your profile- it would add credibility to your posts.

Back on track. I like the "This is my Flag" concept. 
Close up of maple leaf on shoulder.

Pan out, infanteer in combats says "This is my flag, and this is what I do for it"
 :warstory:
Then a series of action shots (street partol, house clearning, jumping from a herc etc...)
 :mg:
Pan back to the flag on his shoulder "and I am proud to wear it."


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## Journeyman

nULL said:
			
		

> I personally liked the CF commercials which were espoused as too "nice."



I'm kind of torn on this "nice job" vs. "guns' blazing" aspect. 

I agree that the military doesn't actually require that many of the highest-speed, lowest-drag troops. Those civies that are pre-disposed towards that lifestyle are going to be drawn towards the military anyway.

One problem the CF seems to be facing is the number of its members who increasingly see it as just another 9-to-5 bureaucracy. Having the "adrenaline" commercials may be another small reminder that one of the terms of service may include dying. 

Do we want to be attracting more people who view the CF as merely an alternative to Walmart employment, but with cool "tanks"? (I've found most non-mil people think anything big & green is a "tank")

If nothing else, the high-speed commercials may help dispel the myth that we're *only *peacekeepers - - living to wear powder blue beanies....keeping various Slavs & Cypriots from actually sorting out their lives....enjoying UN command because it makes NDHQ seem rational & efficient.......ah, but I'm ranting again, aren't I


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## Guy. E

Bograt said:
			
		

> Yes.
> 
> I would suggest that you fill out your profile- it would add credibility to your posts.
> 
> Back on track. I like the "This is my Flag" concept.
> Close up of maple leaf on shoulder.
> 
> Pan out, infanteer in combats says "This is my flag, and this is what I do for it"
> :warstory:
> Then a series of action shots (street partol, house clearning, jumping from a herc etc...)
> :mg:
> Pan back to the flag on his shoulder "and I am proud to wear it."



I could actually see a good campaign regarding that concept. anything from Medics, Pilots, Clerks, Mechanics, Gunners, Cooks, etc.

Very good idea.


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## Bograt

I was a marketing manager before I was a baby pilot. Essentially any trade could be showcased.


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## aluc

For some people, I believe pride and patriotism is enough to join. Sadly though, I don't think enough people (especially in urban areas) feel proud enough to be Canadian. Just a thought based on experience from living in the "Big Smoke" all my life with people of varied cultural backgrounds. I'm of Italian descent, but I cherish and value our English traditions, and I don't believe they should be marginalised as they have been over the years so we don't offend new comers to this country...I'm Canadian, I believe in the Crown...however most children of immigrants seem to think they're allegiances lie with their mother countries. Just my thoughts.


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## Guy. E

I know lots of people who are patriotic. They ware red and white on July 1st, they have maple leaf bumper stickers on they’re cars, some have tattoos and etc...

The problem is attracting all of these people who are other wise just patriotic to a career where they can do something they have a passion for AND be patriotic by serving they’re country at the same time.

If you have mechanical abilities and like to fix/ work on things (like me) and want to serve your country, advertise the fact that you can work on Trucks, Busses, LAVs, CF 18’s, Hawks, Tutors, Hurks, and all the systems involved on a Ship. If you like to blow shit up, you can be a gunner, infantry, combat engineer, etc. Hell, if helping people on a physical level there are nurses, medics, DR’s and almost anyone involved in anything to do with a hospital. To that point, if paper work gets you off, there’s lots of jobs that has in the puzzle palaces.

My point here is that you need to advertise to everyone that almost anything that they want to do, they can do in the CF and have one hell of a life wile they’re at it. Having TV spots what show how good or exciting things can be without showing the bad wont be a first at all


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## geo

funny thing about living in Canada....
because we're bombarded by the ABC, CBS, NBC, TBS & Fox networks broadcasts from across the border - we're up to the Kazoo with US Marine, NG, Reserve, CG, Navy advertising.... and no mater how much publicity the CF can throw at the media..... it ain't going to make much of an impression..... we're soooooo bored by it all.


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## The Gues-|-

Advertisement on Much Music website.http://www.muchmusic.com/


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## Stauds

I saw an ad for the CF on American Idol. It was awesome. At first I thought it was an ad for the American Forces. It started out with navy stuff, lots of technology things, then showed infantry stuff, rapelling, parachuting, helicoptors, all the fun stuff, then to the airforce. It was showing as much about the forces as possible in the period of time it had. Lots of action and "cool" stuff. 

A very big step up from the ads (or lack of) I have seen in the years prior.


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## The_Falcon

The ads for the US Army Reserve, seem to strike that balance between showing a technical trade, and then the employment of that trade on the battle field.  The one with the helicopter mechanic springs to mind.  The USMC are by far the best for inspiring patriotism and a sense of duty, they rarely if ever show action footage, but they are effective nonetheless.  I think the current one is the guy scaling the rock face with a narrator extolling the virtues of a marine (pride, professionalism, duty, honor etc.) and then when he gets to the top, he morphs into a marine wearing dress blues and with narrator reciting the slogan, as it appears.  Everytime I see that add, I want to join the USMC, and I think to myself, why can't our ads be more like that?


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## raymao

"I was a marketing manager before I was a baby pilot. Essentially any trade could be showcased."

That's funny. I'm in marketing.

Just remember business people came up with the whole idea of urbanization, armies and a lot of other things to protect their trade in the market place. In fact, most wars that have ever taken place (if not all) are disputes that are business related.

P.S. before deciding to return to finish Business School, I worked on machinery, operated rigs and was qualified for other things too. I just found the marketing thing funny.


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## canadianblue

> I felt that they served to raise the profile of the forces to those who were interested in a respectable, challenging, professional career; these individuals may have previously discredited the military as a source of serious employment due to stereotypes propagated in commercials that appeal to adrenaline junkies, 15 year olds doing poorly in school, and people incapable of representing the Canadian Forces in a professional capacity.
> 
> What type of people are you trying to attract to the Canadian Forces? I would argue that those who join for the pride and long-term professional development will have a higher retention rate then those who join in order to get into JTF-2.



The "JTF" commando's during BMQ are the worst, they usually tend to be self centered and don't care much for teamwork unless they reap the benefits. I joined because I thought it would be an interesting career, and I'm hoping it gets better after my training is done and I've actaully got a hook.


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## hogdogz

I was part of (in) the new army commercial. It was supposed to air in Febuary but I haven't seen it anywhere.


----------



## George Wallace

A budding young actor?   ;D


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## annemarielyman

I just saw a new advertisement this morning. It was very well done and in my opinion did a great job of encompassing a sense of adventure, opportunities to learn and pride in our forces and country. I found myself even more excited about leaving for BMQ tomorrow.


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## rifleman

Or burning off extras


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## CommonSenseNCO

I felt that they served to raise the profile of the forces to those who were interested in a respectable, challenging, professional career; these individuals may have previously discredited the military as a source of serious employment due to stereotypes propagated in commercials that appeal to adrenaline junkies, 15 year olds doing poorly in school, and people incapable of representing the Canadian Forces in a professional capacity.

Pardon me if I'm mistaken but aren't there a lot of high school/ university/college drop-ou ts in the army> ? I don't think any formation including an airborne element could exist without the (half-mad, far too motivated, glad they're on our side) adrenaline junkies. I'm one of the university drop-outs and honestly there is an intense congregatin of ADD type people in the army. Why? because it works. 

Though the commercials... I do remember being in the mess and a group of soldiers looking up at a new commercial going "wow, that's cool," then realizing it was a recruiting commercial.   Most guys interested in the army want to shoot guns, drive big trucks and blow stuff up. the rest; it willl come with time.


----------



## the 48th regulator

CommonSenseNCO said:
			
		

> Pardon me if I'm mistaken but aren't there a lot of high school/ university/college drop-ou ts in the army> ? I don't think any formation including an airborne element could exist without the (half-mad, far too motivated, glad they're on our side) adrenaline junkies. I'm one of the university drop-outs and honestly there is an intense congregatin of ADD type people in the army. Why? because it works.



Actually no,

Now I hope that you are not here to stir things up.  Please keep it civil

dileas

tess


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## Bograt

I was going to pose a cunning crafted, sarcastically lased, bitter inditement of your post. However, before penning the response I checked your profile. "Infantillery"

Hmm. I guess that says enough. If you are currently in the CF, I would suggest you discuss your enlightened point of view with your Sgt. If you are not in the CF, I would suggest that you move out of your mother's basement, finish off that Art History BA, and open up that Comic Book store that you have always dreamed of. Goodness knows we need more Wonderwoman in our lives.


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## Cabose

Does anyone have a link to the CF commercials.  Also something I have noticed is that allot of younger people (my friends) think that the CF is a joke.  That is mainly the medias fault portraying the CF as and underbudget organization.  But what should happen in the commercial is a touch on patriotism and the rush.  I'm not in the advertising business or anything so I don't know how to make people feel patriotic but I do know how to give people and adrenaline rush as they sit there on there couch.  What the younger generation needs is fast people running around explosions, and of coarse the big thing in people these days sniping.  Now I know being a sniper is not vary realistic but it may get more people into the forces because of there dreams of being the guy with the most kills and when they arrive and go through BMQ and SIQ they may find the the army is awesome in general.  Or they my decide that well BMQ was fun and I heard some people talking about the navy or the air force why don't I check those trades out. So the switch over to what ever the navy or air force does after BMQ.  Now I'm just ranting but I believe that GuyE has a point we need more action in our trailers plus through in some patriotism.
Cabose


----------



## nULL

Actually, it sounds like the younger generation needs to go to a psychiatrist and stop watching television.


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## SightPicture

I've read several posts about the pros and cons of CF recruiting ads, no one has mentioned the history of the CF. Wouldn't a commercial that focused on the traditions of  a particular unit help? I see it as being the Canadian answer to the USMC "pride, tradition ,honour" ads. It could be a series of different units' battle honours and achievements, both reg force and reserve.If that doesn't stir up some pride in the "fence sitters" nothing will.
   SP.


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## nULL

Arguably, history is only popular when it is revised in some form or other, usually with the intent of making it "entertainment" as opposed to "educational". Besides, save for recruiting being handled entirely on a UNIT level, the proud and illustrious history of the ____ regiment wouldn't necessarily help recruiting within the forces as a whole.


----------



## RangerRay

Here's a cool ad that was posted in another thread:

http://www.army.mod.uk/linked_files/rhqpara/Clip_6_Air_Assult_30sec_EngLg_Prog.wmv

Makes me want to re-join!  ;D


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## Guy. E

I think that that is along the lines of what we need.

Not people standing there saluting...


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## elminister

If we are looking at making ads for a specific trade then this is not bad. But my thing is what about the other trades? That's not so intense but very essential. What kind of ad would there's be? I say we make a general ad with a little of everything in it, therefore making the military appealing and not just one specific trade.


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## Guy. E

Like said above, you need to showcase some of the trades. Show people doing high precision work on airplanes, show people blowing S* up with a M777, show officers planning an operation and even clerks doing whatever it is that they do in the puzzle pallace.


----------



## Patrolman

Is it just me or have recruiting adds started to pop all the time on the T.V. and Radio? Until recently I have never seen a recruiting add on T.V or heard one on the radio. Now I see or hear one at least three times a day. Do you think this is because the Conservatives are now in power and are trying kick start the recruiting process? Maybe with this new approach we will be able to target a new audience who could fill the gaps in the CF.


----------



## George Wallace

Well.....actually they came out before the Conservatives actually took over the Government after the Election.  They had started before PM Harper met with the GG, formed his Cabinet, and had the first sitting of Parliament.


----------



## Patrolman

Yes they did come out prior to the election you are right. I believe they are the same ones that used to play at the movies. It just seems they play much more frequently now.


----------



## Quag

I have noticed this to.... It seems alot more frequent on TV.

Just my own thoughts;

-They should update the commercial and get rid of the soldiers in the old green fatigues
-They should add more excitement into the commercials (much like the US "Army of One" commercials)

(I might have opened a can of worms on these comments  ;D)


----------



## Devin

i agree they should update the ads and make them more appealing to people


----------



## jmackenzie_15

They arent bad ads but they don't really say anything... just displays a bunch of various troops running around doing various non specific things.

That video that a poster made a little while back, while only being 28 seconds or something, was better than any government ad ive seen yet. It took a much more aggressive approach and left a stronger feeling towards it than the gov't ones.

http://media.putfile.com/An-un-finished-video-I-put-together-of-the-Canadian-Military (link to video)

To me, our current ads really don't say anything, at least to me. It just seems like a mish mash of various images with no real message other than " join the CF please, youll like it ".


----------



## vonGarvin

man, I LOVE that clip!  THAT'S the kind of clip to get young folks to join the army.  
The clips we have seen now on TV are really for the "Canadian Forces".  Perhaps it should be augmented with one for the Navy, one for the Army and one for the Air Force (nb: See how I went from the senior service to the junior service?  ;D)
The only thing about that song is the Iron Maiden: I would perhaps play "the Trooper", but perhaps just instrumental (who needs to hear "You'll take my life, but I'll take yours too! You'll fire your musket but I'll run you through!  So when you're waiting for the next attack, you better stand, there's no turning back!"  etc and so on and so forth


----------



## jmackenzie_15

I thought that about the different ads per service too, but that would undermine the militaries whole tri-service thing now and how we're all one team and so on and so forth  

But yeah, I think a more aggressive tone in the ads would generate alot more interest in young people especially.

I don't mean clips of taliban being blown away or CF-18s dropping bombs on houses or anything, but more like that video that other poster created.... its more exciting and aggressive than our current advertising platforms and people respond to it alot more.


----------



## Trinity

vonGarvin said:
			
		

> The only thing about that song is the Iron Maiden:



Isn't that Sum 41?  Doing a metal takeoff.
Grab the devil by the horns and (explitive) him up the.. .. yeah.


----------



## Link

The new recruitment campaign has boosted the number of commercials on TV for sure, as well those commercials now have more images, some more action, and sounds to go along with the images.  I haven't heard any on the radio, but have seen them in newspapers and on billboards.

Link


----------



## canadianblue

> Is it just me or have recruiting adds started to pop all the time on the T.V. and Radio? Until recently I have never seen a recruiting add on T.V or heard one on the radio. Now I see or hear one at least three times a day. Do you think this is because the Conservatives are now in power and are trying kick start the recruiting process? Maybe with this new approach we will be able to target a new audience who could fill the gaps in the CF.



Before the CF hires loads of people, change the way people go through the training system. After my BMQ I was excited about my career in the CF, then after a few months of waiting and dealing with the BS that goes along with the CF, less excited. Their are people of PRETC who after their BMQ's are ready for their training and end up sitting around for months on end with maybe a week long drivers course to do until their QL3's. Fix the system, make it more efficient, then hire more members.


----------



## GO!!!

Mack674 said:
			
		

> I don't mean clips of taliban being blown away or CF-18s dropping bombs on houses or anything,



 :

Yes, absolutely, we could have vids with soldiers handing out soccer balls in Bosnia - but aggressively!

Why would we show the public what they pay us to do?


----------



## dearryan

2 cents,

they can put out all the adds they want, but when it takes them 3 months to a year to process a applicant and ship to basic thats no good. I hope with the extra advertising money being dolled out, the CF brass is expanding the recruiting resources/funding to keep up with the potential influx of eager recruits. 

R


----------



## Patrolman

I definitely agree with what FutureTrooper says. I work at a Training Center where Army SQ and PLQ courses are run. Despite the fact courses are being run back to back we are still not able to run enough courses to keep up with demand. We need more instructors,more resources,more training centers you name it. I  guess the only way to get through this stage in CF history is keep running as many courses as we can. 
  Something that has been mentioned before is to Have BMQ,SQ,as well as trade training be run at unit level. For example 1 RCR needs 50 men to bring the unit up to strength. Simply send 50 new recruits to 1RCR and let them train them. The problem with this as some see it is standards.
 Rarely do recruits show up to their units at the desired standard anyways. So who better to train someone to unit standards than the unit themselves. I feel this would help free up the back log of recruits but who am I to say.


----------



## GO!!!

Patrolman said:
			
		

> Something that has been mentioned before is to Have BMQ,SQ,as well as trade training be run at unit level. For example 1 RCR needs 50 men to bring the unit up to strength. Simply send 50 new recruits to 1RCR and let them train them. The problem with this as some see it is standards.
> Rarely do recruits show up to their units at the desired standard anyways. So who better to train someone to unit standards than the unit themselves. I feel this would help free up the back log of recruits but who am I to say.



This, in theory would be a great idea, but think of the drain on an individual unit's resources to train an entire double platoon. Think, 5-6 sections, requiring 12 instructors, 2-3 more NCOs for admin, and officer(s). In other words, nearly a whole company's worth of leadership - who as a result, is not trg with their company, or learning anything themselves. The time involved (about a year) to bring a civilian up to where they need to be in an infantry Bn needs to be considered also. The Bn could not be deployed in this time, and if they did have to, those 50 recruits would be left in limbo.

So, in exchange for nearly a company's worth of leadership being tied up for an entire year, you get 35 recruits delivered to the unit, of whom two thirds will quit after their first BE. 

The schools are definitely the way to go, it is just a question of how to make them more efficient, how to get more recruits through without increasing the number of instructors or lowering standards.


----------



## Britney Spears

As an aside, this is exactly how the Israelis train soldiers. Entire companies rotate through training and deployment cycles together, with the NCOs and officers training the troops they eventually lead at the front. Guys basically work with the same company from basic to leadership and all the way through their careers.

Of course Israel is one of those places where "civvies" are really just troops with 11 month of leave/year, so the culture's a little different.


----------



## canadianblue

> I definitely agree with what FutureTrooper says. I work at a Training Center where Army SQ and PLQ courses are run. Despite the fact courses are being run back to back we are still not able to run enough courses to keep up with demand. We need more instructors,more resources,more training centers you name it. I  guess the only way to get through this stage in CF history is keep running as many courses as we can.
> Something that has been mentioned before is to Have BMQ,SQ,as well as trade training be run at unit level. For example 1 RCR needs 50 men to bring the unit up to strength. Simply send 50 new recruits to 1RCR and let them train them. The problem with this as some see it is standards.
> Rarely do recruits show up to their units at the desired standard anyways. So who better to train someone to unit standards than the unit themselves. I feel this would help free up the back log of recruits but who am I to say.



That would be great, I always thought that drivers courses and SQ should be taught once posted to a unit. I love this idea as I would get the most out of what its like to be a signaller. It beats the hell out of waiting at PRETC, and simply becoming more bitter about it. As well I've been told that units will often teach soldiers different techniques then what is taught at the standard courses. 

As well if 2/3 quit then the CF has to ask itself why so many are quitting despite the pay raises and other benefits and find ways to make it a better career for any member. At this stage of the game I don't see myself staying for more then a BE after seeing alot of the BS that goes along with it, but that could change in time.


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

Futuretrooper said:
			
		

> That would be great, I always thought that drivers courses and SQ should be taught once posted to a unit. I love this idea as I would get the most out of what its like to be a signaller. It beats the hell out of waiting at PRETC, and simply becoming more bitter about it. As well I've been told that units will often teach soldiers different techniques then what is taught at the standard courses.
> 
> As well if 2/3 quit then the CF has to ask itself why so many are quitting despite the pay raises and other benefits and find ways to make it a better career for any member. At this stage of the game I don't see myself staying for more then a BE after seeing alot of the BS that goes along with it, but that could change in time.



And the wheel turns....this is what we did prior to Unification...the Army Regiments taught their own folks...took them in at Depot (RCMP still calls it Depot) and then trained them to their standard. The three branches have been arguing this since unification but the green machine has persevered with a common basic training. When we get them in the Navy we have to start all over again and likewise at the Battle Schools.....we need to address the whole recruiting and training system...it is broken. These ads convince people that we do fast paced action oriented stuff all day and every day....it is not a true picture of our job.


----------



## GO!!!

Futuretrooper said:
			
		

> At this stage of the game I don't see myself staying for more then a BE after seeing alot of the BS that goes along with it, but that could change in time.



Considering that you have only finished the first of what? 6 stages of trg to get you MOC qualified?  and you are fed up already.... don't get too down in the mouth yet!

The first stages of military trg always suck the most, in terms of maxing out the BS - o - meter, but this levels off once you reach a unit.


----------



## reccecrewman

Well, there is a big push to replace all the old recruiting video's of all trades that recruiting depots have across the Country.  I myself was selected to do the recruiting video for the Armoured Recce soldier.  We started filming it last November and I just did the last portion of it on this past Thursday.  I saw the final product on Friday.  It was a good product, and much more modern and updated compared to the video that is on the DND recruiting site now.  The current video is of an 8CH guy in olive drab and you get to see equipment we don't use anymore on it.  All the new video's are expected to be up on the DND site by mid to late April.


----------



## bcampbell

Well they can advertise all they want but once you get in they have no training courses for you.  I was just sworn in and was told that I would be doing my BMQ in April and then off to Gage town for 11 weeks. It seems that they do not have any training staff to run these courses.  So all you people waiting to join you might be in for a big surprise.  It seem that the military has not changed very much over the years, at least in some area's.


----------



## jmackenzie_15

bcampbell said:
			
		

> So all you people waiting to join you might be in for a big surprise.  It seem that the military has not changed very much over the years, at least in some area's.



And you're basing this on what? Your years of experience im hoping?


----------



## GO!!!

bcampbell said:
			
		

> Well they can advertise all they want but once you get in *they have no training courses for you.*



Quick! 

Everyone drop everything and run a militia MP officer course - this young man has been dissapointed!! The horror!!

Here's a tip - the CF has operations running around the world, where people are being killed and injured, and millions of dollars are being spent - daily.

While there is a requirement for your chosen trade, there are other, far more pressing priorities, which take precidence. This may come as a surprise to you, but current operations will always trump training. 

Part of being in the army is patience - try it.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

bcampbell said:
			
		

> Well they can advertise all they want but once you get in they have no training courses for you.  I was just sworn in and was told that I would be doing my BMQ in April and then off to Gage town for 11 weeks. It seems that they do not have any training staff to run these courses.  So all you people waiting to join you might be in for a big surprise.  It seem that the military has not changed very much over the years, at least in some area's.



I'll agree with GO!!! on this one. Time to get over the 'ME first' attitude and get into the 'Us' mode. You won't last long if you don't. It's all pensionable. Enjoy the downtime, your not likely to be getting much more.


----------



## lawandorder

I'm a militia MP.  Did my BMQ/SQ summer of 05, and QL3 summer of 06.  I don't see the problem in that.  The QL3 is 8 weeks, I would much wait the 10 months and do it straight through then to a half assed version over the weekends and stuff.  I'm a green hat and it doesn't bother me.  If anything makes me more anxious to work for my red one.  

But back to recruiting videos.  I think some new ones would be good, some that show a bit more action, or something.  Most of the younger people (16-21) don't really know what our Forces are all about, and think we have a crappy kit/vehicles, and that we can't do anything.  They're just not informed about how good our forces are.  And no, I'm not saying we have everything we need.

Educate the people on what we do/can do, and how "cool" our forces actually are.


----------



## Clément Barbeau Vermet

Mack674 said:
			
		

> I thought that about the different ads per service too, but that would undermine the militaries whole tri-service thing


But it would help the population to make the difference between the "land army", the "sea army" and the "air army"... if you see what I mean.


----------



## Greywolf

Link said:
			
		

> The new recruitment campaign has boosted the number of commercials on TV for sure, as well those commercials now have more images, some more action, and sounds to go along with the images.  I haven't heard any on the radio, but have seen them in newspapers and on billboards.
> 
> Link



Yeah, I've seen the ads on TV quite a lot lately too.  I also heard one on the radio today (94.9FM French radio from Gatineau/Ottawa).


----------



## raymao

I just saw a new ad posted in one of the mens' washrooms at Ryerson University (Toronto). They seem to be everywhere lately. Along with the radio, television and billboards I have seen in Toronto.

Quite the advertising budget.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> As an aside, this is exactly how the Israelis train soldiers. Entire companies rotate through training and deployment cycles together, with the NCOs and officers training the troops they eventually lead at the front. Guys basically work with the same company from basic to leadership and all the way through their careers.
> 
> Of course Israel is one of those places where "civvies" are really just troops with 11 month of leave/year, so the culture's a little different.



The German Army did this as well during the Second World War.  You trained at a Training and Replacement Battalion, then got formed in a March Company with which you travelled to your unit on deployment. There, your March Company did advanced training at a Field Training Battalion, perhaps went on minor operations such as "partisan hunts", and then you went to your field unit as a replacement.  Each military district (Wehrkreis) had their own divisions, divided into brigades (they called them regiments) and so it was similar to our Regimental system where you had units composed of guys from the same regions.  It seemed to work well for them.  However, unlike what you just described, I believe that assignment to a combat unit was done individually rather than with subunits.  But the same Training and Replacement  Battalions fed the same line units, so you probably saw personnel shifted back and forth between them, for courses (I presume leadership training was done back in a soldier's home district, where he was on paper transferred back to the same Training and Replacement unit he started in), for convalescence (instructors tended to be in this category), etc.


----------



## vonGarvin

And we all see how well that worked for them LOL
Actually, in all seriousnes, it worked quite well for the Wehrmacht.  One thing I like about the Bundeswehr is that they have two Infantry trades: Jäger ("light" infantry) and Panzergrenadier


----------



## safeboy43

Hey guys,

While at work a couple of days ago, I couldn't help but notice two helicopters buzzing around town all day. One of them looking the green cam mo army style. After work, I went to the local park for my daily run and was stopped by a man saying that there was filming in progress for a CF recruiting commercial. I went back home, grabbed my binoculars and headed back to the other side of the lake. I looked across the lake and saw a school bus half submerged in the water. I also saw several people in army gear running into the bus. This looks like a great commercial and I can't wait until it comes out. Feel free to comment!  

Safeboy


----------



## aesop081

safeboy43 said:
			
		

> Hey guys,
> 
> While at work a couple of days ago, I couldn't help but notice two helicopters buzzing around town all day. One of them looking the green cam mo army style. After work, I went to the local park for my daily run and was stopped by a man saying that there was filming in progress for a CF recruiting commercial. I went back home, grabbed my binoculars and headed back to the other side of the lake. I looked across the lake and saw a school bus half submerged in the water. I also saw several people in army gear running into the bus. This looks like a great commercial and I can't wait until it comes out. Feel free to comment!
> 
> Safeboy



Yes, thas great.  Another ***** comercial where Canadian soldiers/sailors/airman do nothing but  peaceful rescues.  I just participated to the filming of a comercial where one of our CPFs was rescuing the crew of a fishing vesel on fire.  When are we going to see CF recruitng comercials that show the military doing what a military does ?  Christ, they didnt even want us to open the bomb bay doors....wasnt the image they wewre looking for...WTF


----------



## 2 Cdo

> Yes, thas great.  Another ***** comercial where Canadian soldiers/sailors/airman do nothing but  peaceful rescues.  I just participated to the filming of a comercial where one of our CPFs was rescuing the crew of a fishing vesel on fire.  When are we going to see CF recruitng comercials that show the military doing what a military does ?  Christ, they didnt even want us to open the bomb bay doors....wasnt the image they wewre looking for...WTF



We don't dare show anything aggressive, like weapons, in the commercials as it might scare the "UN is great, we are peacekeepers" crowd! :


----------



## sneak and peek soldier

Well at least were getting new commercials i mean like i was sick and tired of seeing the same one over and over again....But yeah you're definitely right we need a commercial that shows what the Military actually does like we don't just rescue kitties from tall trees.


----------



## safeboy43

Well, we don`t know what exactly will be in the commercial. For all we know, they`re filming a shootout somewear else.


----------



## Five-to-One

After all the talk about how the Canadian public are going to be shown that our military is more than a peacekeeping force, starting with afghanistan, I'd say there's gonna be more to it than that


----------



## COBRA-6

You all have obviously not heard of the new Amphibious Secret School Bus Assault Group yet... oh crap OPSEC...


----------



## Cloud Cover

Amphibious Secret School Government Rapid Assault Brigade. [ASSGRAB]


----------



## spr. mackinnon

hahaha, how do i get recruited into ASSGRAB? :rofl:


----------



## aesop081

spr. mackinnon said:
			
		

> hahaha, how do i get recruited into ASSGRAB? :rofl:



you're an engineer aren't you ?  ;D


----------



## Devlin

Becoming a member of ASSGRAB is restricted to those who have been in Ottawa as part of a CYA unit. While being part of a CYA unit does not gurantee acceptance into ASSGRAB. Your experience in covering A$$, kissing A$$, and generally being an A$$ will be closely considered during the application process


----------



## safeboy43

I am also guessing that the PT test will be very difficult for ASSGRAB. You have to do 1 handed pushups while grabbing your a$$ and do a step test while telling stupid a$$ jokes. ;D


----------



## aesop081

Five-to-One said:
			
		

> After all the talk about how the Canadian public are going to be shown that our military is more than a peacekeeping force, starting with afghanistan, I'd say there's gonna be more to it than that



Five -to-one,

like i mentioned earlier in this thread, i was filming a recruiting comercial last Saturday just off Victoria and vancouver.  I was flying a CP-140 Aurora anti-submarine warfare aircraft.  We we there with HMCS Calgary, a Canadian patrol frigate ( hence a warship).  So here we have 2 pieces of equipment designed to visit death on enemy submarines and surface fleets and the best that could be done was to cast them in the "goodie-goodie" role of recuing some fisdherman from his burning boat.  When i said that i figured that the abotsford thing would end up as a rescue scenario, i was in fact making an assumption, but it was a pretty good on considering my recent experience.  I may be wrong but i know where i'm putting my money. After all the comercials playing on TV now still show guys taking refugees out of a CH-146.......


----------



## dont.get.it.48

I honestly think our commercial now is good. but it's to.. like general.. and not specific enough. the U.S. commercials are fantastic for the military, because they don't have just one commercial like we do. they have air force, army ,reservist, and ones that show what you can get out of being in the military for a future civi career playing. i don't think they have one for the navy but, i think we need to have a variety of commercials to 'touch hearts' of all sorts of different kinds of people. i don't think you can do that all with one commercial. I'm part of the young generation as you guys were talking about and no, explotions and stuff wont help as much and it would increase stereo types that people have "u join u'll get killed". I think you need a different commercial to reach out to different types of people. and i think we need a separate one for recruiting reservists. to reach out to most people my age these days u don't need explotions or to get there adrenalin going, u need to have deep meaning that can reach out to people so they all different people can realate to all the different kinds of the recruiting commercials. because when alt of my peers see the commercial on now, they think wow that's cool, but what are the odds i can be like that or live up to that and it just slips there minds. we really need different commercials that people can relate to and think the military isn't out of there league and it will stick with them.


----------



## The_Falcon

The US Navy does have commercials, and I think they are some of the best overall.  Typically they either focus on the Nuclear subs, or most of the time their spec ops guys, with Godsmack providing the soundtrack.  Their website should have  a current one.


----------



## WT

Yeah, the US NAVY commercials are definitely awesome.  I think I remember some guys repelling out of a helicopter and onto a zodiac, speeding around on sea-doos and some SEALs operations.  Towards the end of the commercial it says "And to think, some poor guy out there is driving a minivan...Accelerate your life!".
Very good.


----------



## aluc

http://www.torontosun.ca/News/Canada/2006/07/07/1672534-sun.html


Fri, July 7, 2006
Troops revved up
Canuck soldiers in Kandahar kick off Sunday's Grand Prix with videotaped 'Drivers, start your engines'

By SHARON HO, TORONTO SUN


 Molson Grand Prix drivers are going to get the command on Sunday to start their engines straight from Afghanistan.

A videotape of about 20 Canadian soldiers on an armoured vehicle at the Kandahar airfield giving the command will get the race rolling.

"It's a unique thing we've done this year," said Charlie Johnstone, president and CEO of the Grand Prix Association of Toronto.

"I think it's an opportunity for us to show our nationalism, stand up and be proud of our Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan," he said yesterday.

Maj. John St. Dennis said the video will help underline the similarity between the race and the type of work the Canadian Forces offers.

"The Molson Grand Prix is a hi-tech, high-energy exciting event," St. Dennis said.

"Our view in the recruiting centres is that those are some of the career options we're offering Canadians.

"There seems to be a perfect match between the two," he said.

The armed forces will be recruiting at Sunday's race.

"We're trying to get the message out to Canadians that we are hiring," St. Dennis said.

The armed forces wouldn't reveal the identities of the soldiers in the video.

"When people are overseas we generally don't give out their names for operational security," St. Dennis said.


----------



## geo

Interesting.................


----------



## ark

Thanks for the info, I will for sure try to watch it.


----------



## Pearson

Favourite comment so far on the Globe's article.

"James Young from Brampton, Canada writes: >The television ad shows dark images of soldiers in combat and jumping out of a plane, exciting and manly. The young novice joins and suddenly finds himself washing the underpants and socks of some officer. Reality Check. Durgan."


More interesting, educated, well thought out and "informed" comments here:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060907.wxads07/CommentStory/National/home


----------



## Teflon

Reprint of one of those comments:

Winston Churchill from London, Canada writes: Shaun/Gerhard: lighten up. DND is trying to recruit infantry privates not the next CDS or DFAIT boss. What DND appears to have learned is that if you require soldiers urgently you must advertise to attract those who WILL join rather than those you might LIKE to join. For a couple of decades now, DND has been with the program: gender neutral, multi-cultural etc. Alas, rough white guys from small towns kept joining in enormous disproportion, while environmentally aware, big city lesbians of colour stayed away in droves. Could it be that DND has been allowed to recognise, well, reality? If so, it appears that recent events in Afghanistan have had at least one positive effect. 
Posted 07/09/06 at 8:20 AM EDT |


----------



## IrishCanuck

My brain is bleeding after reading some of these comments.


----------



## patrick666

And I thought the NDP comments were bad. I cannot believe some people.


----------



## Big Red

Where can we watch these recruting ads online?


----------



## Rice0031

Canada's army may be failing to get "who they want to join" and instead getting "who will join".
Here's an effective and quick way of recruiting who you want:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1tkuj5bEA8


----------



## The_Falcon

Big Red said:
			
		

> Where can we watch these recruting ads online?



I don't think they are out yet.


----------



## Remius

They are being launched in Halifax by the end of the month.  Expect to see them nation wide within two to three months after.


----------



## warspite

IrishCanuck said:
			
		

> My brain is bleeding after reading some of these comments.


One or two weren't bad but the rest... breathe in... breathe out... think of a happy place.....there we go much better.
 But it would be nice to see some new recruiting videos. I know that old one they always used to show in no way encouraged me to want to join. I want to join to serve my country and to do something different than the status quo... no the old video really isn't that effective (just my opinion)


----------



## hogdogz

I wonder if this recruiting ad, atleast the army one, was the one we shot down in Victoria last December that I haven't heard or seen since then.


----------



## Tolstoyevsky

The CBC criticized the new recruitment ad of the CF, saying that it portrays Muslims as the bad guys...


----------



## George Wallace

Wonder if the CBC knows how many Muslims are serving in the CF?


----------



## Cloud Cover

Tolstoyevsky said:
			
		

> The CBC criticized the new recruitment ad of the CF, saying that it portrays Muslims as the bad guys...



What a surprise ...


----------



## Tolstoyevsky

They particularly hated the "Fight Chaos" part associated with images of terrorist attacks and destruction...


----------



## Haggis

Tolstoyevsky said:
			
		

> The CBC criticized the new recruitment ad of the CF, saying that it portrays Muslims as the bad guys...



Link?  Source?


----------



## silentbutdeadly

Yeah link please , might be something that will jump start my day!  ;D


----------



## Tolstoyevsky

Sorry, I was simply watching the CBC News...


----------



## the 48th regulator

Didn't find anything ont he net yet from CBC, but CTV has a simmialr theme in their report.

Canadian Forces release hard-hitting ads today



> An aggressive new Canadian Forces ad campaign was launched Wednesday, drawing a tough response from some Canadian Muslims and an opposition MP who described the spots as war mongering. ....




dileas

tess


----------



## Blindspot

I lost any minute, shred of respect I had for the CBC on Monday: They had the audacity to air a comercial on for this Sunday's Passionate Eye during the 9/11 rememberence. It just so happens that the documentary they are airing is "The Torture Question", with the commercial posing the question, "has America gone too far?" I mean, are they stupid or just insensitive?

Also, yesterday, CFRB 1010 here in Toronto (which is often a breath of fresh, common sense air in this city) did a little piece on a female employee who was fired from Radiocanada for writing an open letter supporting the troops in Afghanastan. Low and (not) behold I've searched everywhere and cannot find any information on this. Has it been swept neatly under a rug?

Please, someone, pull the funding plug!


----------



## Quag

Anybody have any links to the new ads?


----------



## Infanteer

Anyone see the new recruiting adds yet?  One focuses on Dom Ops, while the other is on our expeditionary role.  Surprisingly, both are really good!  And we finally got a decent slogan, they both end with the tag line "Fight with the Canadian Forces".  About time we get this right.  Now all they have to do is to get that embed's footage as a recruiting ad.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060913/CF_ads_060913/20060913?hub=TopStories

You can see the adds to the right, under the video column.


----------



## Blindspot

> "They do need recruits, but I'm not sure Rambo ads are the way we want to portray military service," Black was reported as saying.
> 
> 
> "I think there's a lot more to the Canadian military than fight, fight, fight and war, war, war."



I just found the NDP's proposal to replace the new CF ad campaign!


----------



## Haggis

Quag said:
			
		

> Anybody have any links to the new ads?



Click on the link Tess provided in reply no. 7, above.  The CTV website has links to the ads. (Not accesible through the DWAN)


----------



## Sub_Guy

Finally!  I watched one of these ads on the news this morning, I liked it.  At least we now have a good slogan.  A step in the right direction.


----------



## sleeman

I've seen both ads, love 'em!!  If I weren't already half way through the recruitment process, I would go and sign up today! LOL


----------



## Reccesoldier

It's about bloody time we stopped pussy footing around with the feel good, peacekeeper, civil service with uniforms lies portrayed for the last 10 years or more.

[sarcasm on] I was so surprised to hear that the Canadian Islamic Conference disaproves of the ads!!! :crybaby:  :[/sarcasm off]


----------



## GAP

Nice


----------



## patrick666

Yeah, they did a really good job this time. CBC said it 'makes muslims look like bad guys' but I don't see it. 



> It's about bloody time we stopped pussy footing around with the feel good, peacekeeper, civil service with uniforms lies portrayed for the last 10 years or more.


 - Damn right!


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

Definitely better than those radio ads last year! 

Did anyone notice this part from the CTV article: "The military also intends to streamline its hiring process by October by easing physical fitness requirements for entrance. "  When and by how much?  I thought they were lowered already... 

(Edited for spelling and unwanted emoticon)


----------



## Tolstoyevsky

Blindspot said:
			
		

> I lost any minute, shred of respect I had for the CBC (...)



Rex Murphy's a good guy...I'm suprised he is still working at the CBC.


----------



## scoutfinch

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Didn't find anything ont he net yet from CBC, but CTV has a simmialr theme in their report.
> 
> Canadian Forces release hard-hitting ads today
> 
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess



As I read thepart quoted above, CTV hasn't issued an editorial comment on the recruiting ads but noted that an Opposition MP and some muslims have complained.


----------



## Remius

MikeG said:
			
		

> Definitely better than those radio ads last year!
> 
> Did anyone notice this part from the CTV article: "The military also intends to streamline its hiring process by October by easing physical fitness requirements for entrance. "  When and by how much?  I thought they were lowered already... ???
> 
> (Edited for spelling.)



Basically the PT test will be handled by the training system as opposed to the recruiting system.  The standards are not changing.


----------



## scoutfinch

Patrick H. said:
			
		

> Yeah, they did a really good job this time. CBC said it 'makes muslims look like bad guys' but I don't see it.
> - Damn right!



The CBC didn't say it makes muslims look like bad guys.  It said muslims were complaining that it made muslims look like bad guys. There is a world of difference between the two statements.


----------



## Tolstoyevsky

What the CBC usually does is that when they cannot say something, they bring someone else to say it for them. Now, that's what I call "journalistic objectivity" lol


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

Thanks for the reply Crantor. Doesn't matter what they come up with, I am sure someone won't like them. Can't wait to hear Jack's opinion on the ads  :


----------



## Torlyn

Wow...  Pretty good videos.


----------



## scoutfinch

Tolstoyevsky said:
			
		

> What the CBC usually does is that when they cannot say something, they bring someone else to say it for them. Now, that's what I call "journalistic objectivity" lol



It is called reporting.  I am not sure what you expect reporters to do... but I know that they aren't supposed to editorialize.  

But let me guess, all of your sources are entirely objective...right? : : : 

Whatever.


----------



## GAP

I think it would be poetic justice to have the PM, if Jacko whines about the ads, turn around and play the Barney soundbite just for Jack and company....perfect shot back.  ;D


----------



## Journeyman

The CTV links take you to two new CF ads and a 4 1/2 minute media commentary. 

Having watched both commercials several times just reaffirms that some groups/political parties will complain regardless. There were more humanitarian rescues than combat operations, yet the complaints focus on the fact that "people had guns drawn."  :  Ad #2 in fact is almost completely BC forest fires and Manitoba floods. 

Very artsy - mostly black & white/sepia tones....although the Red Crosses on the ambulances/field hospitals are in colour (bless those CF life-savers   ).

Well done. I may not lose too much sleep about Dawn Black's (NDP Defence Critic) baseless concerns


----------



## scoutfinch

GAP said:
			
		

> I think it would be poetic justice to have the PM, if Jacko whines about the ads, turn around and play the Barney soundbite just for Jack and company....perfect shot back.  ;D



:rofl:


----------



## Remius

What it boils down to is risk management.  The ads are targeting a specific group of people to get them to join a particular set of trades.  If the ads attract them then the mission gets accomplished.  Trying to make ads that please everyone is inneffective.


----------



## Mike Baker

Saw them both, there great!


----------



## scoutfinch

Good point Crantor... one which I had not previously contemplated.


----------



## foerestedwarrior

> NDP Defence Critic Dawn Black called the ads war-mongering and said they were a heavy-handed approach to drawing new soldiers.
> 
> 
> "They do need recruits, but I'm not sure Rambo ads are the way we want to portray military service," Black was reported as saying.
> 
> 
> "I think there's a lot more to the Canadian military than fight, fight, fight and war, war, war



I havnt seen them yet, but it sounds like one is of operations overseas, and one is of domestic ops. So that is all war? Sounds like they are complaining just to make noise....


----------



## Bobbyoreo

Wonder if they made a recruiting ad int world war two and they showed people. Wonder what their responce would be. 
How do you not like the word FIGHT. It is wait we do and why do we have to show certain groups of people the ads before we release them?


----------



## scoutfinch

The ads are awesome!  Very well done indeed.  

Thanks for the links to whomever posted them.


----------



## Collin.t

I really enjoyed the second ad, but the first one well is good too but left me a little uncomfortable, so over great improvement, not enough navy though


----------



## nowhere_man

ha ha i guess theres one (likely the only) good reason to live in Halifax, And apparently there releasing them today http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060913/CF_ads_060913/20060913?hub=TopStories


----------



## hogdogz

Hey I'm in the first ad! ;D we shot that (atleast the army portion) down in Victoria last December. Haden't heard anything since.


----------



## nowhere_man

Is there a place on the internet where one can watch these new ads?


----------



## Spartan

From the CTV article 
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060913/CF_ads_060913/20060913?hub=TopStories
about the ads - One line in the article stuck out hard to me and it is:


> The military also intends to streamline its hiring process by October by easing physical fitness requirements for entrance.
> 
> MacIsaac said the military will take on some of the responsibility for improving physical fitness once the recruits have been brought into the fold.


What will this entail for the CF and recruitment?


----------



## cplcaldwell

nowhere_man : Perhaps not worth mentioning as you may find it. Although Spartan did not explicitly say so, The ads are currently hyperlinked at the URL that Spartan gave. Look at the right hand top box. Labelled Video.

Excellent ads. 

As to what Dawn Black or the CI Congress finds offensive I'm not sure what is so offensive about "Fight Fear, Fight Distress, Fight Chaos, Fight with the Canadian Forces". 

[sarcasm]
Unless of course we should stop fighting because Fear, Distress and Chaos are part of our multi ethnic multi cultural tolerant society. 
[/sarcasm]


----------



## GDawg

I just picked up my copy of the DVD.
The ads are fantastic, especially the dom ops one.
 I think the CF will have greater with success using this as opposed to the previous ads, its not vague like the last batch and its not a high paced action rock video (Fighter pilots and SEALs only) like the American ads.


----------



## The_Falcon

It seems as though some people higher up may have heeded suggestions put forth here about making CF recruiting commercials more action oriented.


----------



## UberCree

It will be interesting to see if they pull the ads because of the Dawson College incident.  You can bet they'll be discussing it right now.


----------



## McG

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060913/CF_ads_060913/20060913?hub=TopStories


> NDP Defence Critic Dawn Black called the ads war-mongering and said they were a heavy-handed approach to drawing new soldiers.
> 
> "They do need recruits, but I'm not sure Rambo ads are the way we want to portray military service," Black was reported as saying.


That's right.  We don't want Canadians to actually know the central purpose of a military.  The ads should have featured soldiers hugging teddy-bears.  :


----------



## SeaKingTacco

> That's right.  We don't want Canadians to actually know the central purpose of a military.  The ads should have featured soldiers hugging teddy-bears.



Oh- I remember that one- 1994ish, right?

These are much better, IMHO.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>"The military also intends to streamline its hiring process by October by easing physical fitness requirements for entrance. " 

The doors will be two inches wider.


----------



## blacktriangle

A lot of people aren't going to like the commericals and they were discussed in my anthropology class today. However, the same people that complain about them are the ones that WON'T be joining, so who cares... I'm sorry but i don't know anyone that signed up to hand out flowers.

At least the commercials will show what you would be getting yourself into...


----------



## Edward Campbell

When I first joined the main ad - posters in buses, etc, were the big thing - showed two guys (PPCLI, actually) with a Bren gun.  The words said: "A career with a future." 

I joined and learned, shortly afterwards that my future was, indeed, as the section 2I/C (in the exalted 'rank' of LCpl) with a C2 (which was only very slightly lighter than the Bren) and my mate, a fellow named Montcrief from the Nort’ Shore of NB, the human pack mule.  We never got a chance, as the old song _Movin' on_ said to practice, à la the late Cpl. C.O. (Punchy) Bell, _playing Bren gun boogie on a Chinaman's back_, but we had fun anyway.

The Navy ad said "Go places!  Go Navy!"  It seemed interesting, I almost joined until I saw the poster in the recruiting office with two guys (who I learned, later, were NOT in The RCR) standing in front of a Ferret scout car which was parked beneath some palm trees.  That was the Army I wanted to join - but London, Ipperwash, Meaford, Petawawa, Gagetown, and, and, and ... beckoned … I got to see a few palm trees and a chum in C/8CH let me drive a Ferret back about 40 years ago, which was great fun.    

Ahhhh, memories.


----------



## medicineman

I guess alot of people were snivelling over the word "Fight" - apparently that's a taboo thing for soldiers to do to the bad guys/gals.  Just sort of typifies what most people think we're here for - shovelling Toronto sidewalks and tossing sanbags when we're not looking pretty in our "Targets for Peace" helmets.

MM


----------



## blacktriangle

It will certainly be a welcome change to see those ads on TV. 

Something tells me they will not only recruit, but inform and educate the public about the current day Canadian Forces (whether they agree or not).


----------



## GAP

> when we're not looking pretty in our "Targets for Peace" helmets



worn backwards to fit the scenerio...


----------



## medicineman

Tehee - OOOPS!

MM


----------



## TN2IC

All I can say to the ads is "Wow".


----------



## Rocketryan

I like the ads.
I also liked the old ones though.
I wish it had like more sound or something.Like music or people talking on a radio or etc.


I loved the ndp respone 

Something about us portraying us as War-Mongers and RAMBOS!!

Also.....it used to have the Fight....Terror...but they realized if they did the media would reign down on them with videos of Muslims...etc you know what i mean..do you?

yeah im babbling but GREAT ADS

although i cant find those videos on any of the CF websites

DnD home website has a new look too


----------



## nsmedicman

I'm confused (doesn't take much sometimes... ;D).....but where is the part of the commercials that supposedly portrays Muslums as the "bad guys"? Because Canadian soldiers are supposedly kicking in a door in Afghanistan? 

I personally like the new ads, and it's about time that we stopped portraying the CF as just another Federal agency.

Isn't that what the CF does though? It fights against fear, chaos and distress, whether home, or abroad.

Last time I checked.....isn't that what peacekeepers do as well?

Many organizations around the world use ads like these to recruit people. Why shouldn't the CF join in as well?

These ads are aimed at recruiting new "employees" for the CF. If you don't like the ads, change the channel.

The general public needs to be educated on what the CF actually does.

Just my opinion.


----------



## Good2Golf

I guess we can't see them on the DWAN since we're already in.....  

G2G


----------



## xmarcx

cplcaldwell said:
			
		

> As to what Dawn Black or the CI Congress finds offensive I'm not sure what is so offensive about "Fight Fear, Fight Distress, Fight Chaos, Fight with the Canadian Forces".



The Canadian Islamic Council specifically objected to the word "Fight". I barely know where to start with that. They don't deserve any special treatment over any other special interest group in the country, just because at this particular point in time our military happens to be engaged in operations against Muslim opponents - their opinion shouldn't mean a damn thing to the issue. If they weren't so paranoid and self-interested (for Muslims within Canada/America) they might notice that terrorism is killing hundreds of civilians in Islamic countries around the world, and we're working to do their religion a great favor by pruning the extremists their own culture seems completely uninterested in eradicating.

Great ads though, makes me want to apply...er...again!


----------



## Brixxie

oooooh no stark music ?!?!

Wasn't this the lost episode of "over there"


----------



## hogdogz

Here are some of the pictures I took on the set.


----------



## ThatsLife

I'm wondering if anyone has a link to the ACTUAL video. From what I've seen, it looks just like most of us would have wanted it to look like...except maybe a different music track. Here's the article itself for those of you who haven't had a chance to take a gander at it yet:

http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/TopStories/ContentPosting.aspx?newsitemid=CTVNews%2f20060913%2fCF_ads_060913&feedname=CTV-TOPSTORIES_V2&showbyline=True

You can click the "watch this video" button to watch it. Mind you, there's two annoying reporters interupting the whole video with their "oh noez, teh canadien govermennt iz showing us gunz! thiz iz not wut teh canadien popULation wantz!11!" which is why I'm trying to find a link to the actual video minus the reporters.

EDIT:  Just wanted to add that I'm not too kean about the whole "lessening the physical fitness requirements".  Quality of quantity.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

As much as I wanted to, I couldn't watch the whole think on the news site.  Those 2 bozo's haven't a clue IMHO.

I laughed out loud when he was talking about the "Reserve Forces" and the "Traditional Forces".  The what?  I wonder if that is like the Regular Force.

Do not go pass Go, do not collect your $200.

Yet again the media shows to me how clueless they are on pretty much anything they report on the military.

 :


----------



## silentbutdeadly

This is a step up thats forsure in the Ad dept. Not at the quality of the Marine ones, but we are getting there.


----------



## Garett

As the Course Officer for an upcoming Reg Force BMQ course I haven't really heard anything about actually dropping the entrance standards for physical fitness but because of other information I have heard it is possible that that may happen.  Based on the information I've heard, within certain limits it probably won't be an issue in my opinion.  Society is changing, the recruits walking through the door aren't at the same fitness level as in past years.  The key is will not ability, we teach ability and from what I've seen it just takes a bit longer now since civilian values have shifted further away from military values.  If someone wants to join the CF and they're motivated I have no problem putting in the extra time and effort to help them get up to the standard.  From what I've seen of the BMQ course I believe I have the proper instructors and policies to ensure that all my graduates meet the standard.

On the recruiting ad, I'm glad that there is a new commercial.  I don't know how many times I've seen the last one at the movie theatre and shook my head.  Due to our past recruiting ads I understand why I've met pacifists in the military.


----------



## Korus

Traditional forces are like conventional forces, according to that video.

Reserves must then be like unconventional forces... woo! we're special?

</Dry wit>


----------



## aesop081

Well at least one day at work wasnt a total waste for me...in one of the adds you see an Aurora flying low above HMCS Calgary.  I was on that Aurora that day.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

See everyone has their 15 minutes in the spotlight!  

Were you waving?  I'll look next time in the real ad when I see it   ;D


----------



## aesop081

Anywhere online we can see those ads.....without CTV/CBC commentary ?


----------



## The Gues-|-

cdnaviator said:
			
		

> Anywhere online we can see those ads.....without CTV/CBC commentary ?



ctv.ca, under "video"


----------



## Rice0031

I won't be getting to hand out flowers? 

I haven't seen the ads yet myself, but I am quite interested to see them.


----------



## aesop081

i just finaly watched them....its a step up, but IMHO, they still suck.


----------



## joonrooj

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060913/CF_ads_060913/20060913?hub=TopStories
Right hand side of teh page there are links to the videos.


----------



## aesop081

Joonrooj said:
			
		

> http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060913/CF_ads_060913/20060913?hub=TopStories
> Right hand side of teh page there are links to the videos.



Yeah, found 'em, thank you....took me a while


----------



## Rice0031

cdnaviator said:
			
		

> i just finaly watched them....its a step up, but IMHO, they still suck.


Are Canadian recruiting ads destined to always suck?
...I like the ones they used to play on tv, the one that showed a soldier running underneath a helicopter, a girl on a ship... You know the ones.


----------



## joonrooj

cdnaviator said:
			
		

> Yeah, found 'em, thank you....took me a while


Do I detect a note of sarcasm?


----------



## nova_flush

hmmm .. im not sure those videos are such a good idea, i dont like them too much.. what about you guys?


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

nova_flush said:
			
		

> hmmm .. im not sure those videos are such a good idea, i dont like them too much.. what about you guys?



What don't you like about them?  Never come to the table with just the problem, bring a solution along too.   ;D


----------



## aesop081

Joonrooj said:
			
		

> Do I detect a note of sarcasm?



Not at all......i was being serious when i said thanks...........

You wanna make something of it  ;D



			
				Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> What don't you like about them?



Well for my part there was still, IMHO, too much "touchy feely" stuff in them......more footage depicting Afghanistan, more footage of training in Wainwright....the part where HMCS Calgary and the CP-140 were depicted was a "at sea rescue" scenario....why not have made it a sub hunt.......they refused when we asked if they wanted us to open the bomb bay.......why not have us drop a torpedo ?  How about footage of snipers or battle runs in gageton ? why no footage of artillery guns being loaded and fired ?


----------



## Garett

After watching the actual videos, I think they're a step in the right direction but they still have that "clean" feel to them.  I would have liked something a bit more ballsy on the army portion of the ad.  I still get a bit of the "running through the puddle" feel from the last long running ad.  Truth Duty Valour is still doing a better job then DND at accurately portraying the CF to the Cdn public.


----------



## orange.paint

Garett said:
			
		

> As the Course Officer for an upcoming Reg Force BMQ course I haven't really heard anything about actually dropping the entrance standards for physical fitness but because of other information I have heard it is possible that that may happen.  Based on the information I've heard, within certain limits it probably won't be an issue in my opinion.  Society is changing, the recruits walking through the door aren't at the same fitness level as in past years.  The key is will not ability, we teach ability and from what I've seen it just takes a bit longer now since civilian values have shifted further away from military values.  If someone wants to join the CF and they're motivated I have no problem putting in the extra time and effort to help them get up to the standard.  From what I've seen of the BMQ course I believe I have the proper instructors and policies to ensure that all my graduates meet the standard.



I try lately to keep my Physical rants to a minimum.But my question would be 

How can they lower the standard any lower?
Also Im in the boonies with dial up here can someone please tell me if this lower standards is part of the viedo or not? pm me.


----------



## civvy3840

After watching these videos, I would have to say that they are definately moving in the right direction. I especially like at the end how they have the fight for the Canadian Forces slogan, instead of the old one. I think it is much more effective. It made me want to join...mind you I am in the process already so maybe I'm just biased.


----------



## darmil

I didn't think it was that great.It could have been better its needs spice :boring:


----------



## Cabose

I think they ads where crap.  I felt depressed, unpatriotic,  It made me want to cancel my application.  The old ones where much better.   They made you  feel something they made you think holy shit that's awesome.  These ones didn't do that at all.  I think we need to go back, or look to our friendly neighbours to the south for inspiration.
Cabose


----------



## Cronicbny

I don't think they are all that bad to be honest. Though, they could actually use some more sound - far too quiet (some music maybe?). The best thing I've seen DND put together was the Navy's domestic security piece... I actually thought it was well done

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rwjt51p-4Yw


----------



## warspite

Cronicbny said:
			
		

> I don't think they are all that bad to be honest. Though, they could actually use some more sound - far too quiet (some music maybe?). The best thing I've seen DND put together was the Navy's domestic security piece... I actually thought it was well done
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rwjt51p-4Yw


I agree they need some music to liven the ads up. I think some heavy metal would go nicely but that's just me. Overall the ads would be better than the old ones if they just had some music.  

And the navies domestic security piece is by far the best. Was it ever aired on television?


----------



## Teddy Ruxpin

I suspect (and it's only a guess) that we were watching the "movie theatre" ads.  These seemed far too long for routine use on TV.  

IMHO, they're a considerable improvement over the "happy fun 'job'" ads we've seen for years.  However, they seem to lack pace and excitement...a point for improvement...

TR


----------



## GAP

> However, they seem to lack pace and excitement...a point for improvement...



Don't forget that applies to you. To a young civilian looking at these ads, they hold potential. That's all the ads point out...potential..."this could be you". To anyone who has trained and especially to those who have deployed...they are weak, for you. 

The silence is deafening. Music would ruin it and make it just another music video.


----------



## hogdogz

GAP said:
			
		

> The silence is deafening. Music would ruin it and make it just another music video.



exactly! the silence makes it so much better.


----------



## career_radio-checker

Cabose said:
			
		

> I think they ads where crap.  I felt depressed, unpatriotic,  It made me want to cancel my application.  The old ones where much better.   They made you  feel something they made you think holy crap that's awesome.  These ones didn't do that at all.  I think we need to go back, or look to our friendly neighbours to the south for inspiration.
> Cabose



Oh goody  ;D You tube proves itself useful once again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOjn9_iAN-c   USMC video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tEPBZlSl7I  CZECK video (love those helicopters)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkxUEFBPEbY JAPAN video (Y'ar they stole me music says I. But who cares it's friggn adrenaline moving)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlWEdYazoIE PHILIPPINE MARINE CORPS video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlWEdYazoIE SPAIN video (join the army and chase tail on the beach at the same time)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwaX1-Pn_c4 IRISH video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELQybhwsGV0 FRENCH FOREIGN LEGION 

For humour's sake
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xtw5rPwgiqE&mode=related&search= FRENCH 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkU9RGzWX6I&mode=related&search= FRENCH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ukt309HFoc JUST FOR KICKS (ohh he's evil)


----------



## joonrooj

Cronicbny said:
			
		

> I don't think they are all that bad to be honest. Though, they could actually use some more sound - far too quiet (some music maybe?). The best thing I've seen DND put together was the Navy's domestic security piece... I actually thought it was well done
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rwjt51p-4Yw


Personally I thought this one was great, made me consider the navy for a second before I realized that I live in Saskatchewan.


----------



## Strike

The Navy one on youtube is great!  I remember seeing it on DPAC.  The story we were told was something about the funds to distribute it never came through.  A bummer really, 'cause it really rocks!


----------



## Cronicbny

warspite said:
			
		

> I agree they need some music to liven the ads up. I think some heavy metal would go nicely but that's just me. Overall the ads would be better than the old ones if they just had some music.
> 
> And the navies domestic security piece is by far the best. Was it ever aired on television?



I don't think so... at least, I never saw it anywhere except the DIN. I was surprised to see it on youtube actually so perhaps it did get some airtime somewhere...


----------



## orange.paint

Seems to be focusing on domestic ops and aid to civil power,from the two I've seen so far.I personally don't like them at all.Compared to other videos from different countries they appear as a peacekeeper/peace corp videos.Aid to civil power is great but bullets firing sells to who we want in our army.

It appears to me the government isn't using these for recruitment and more to show the PUBLIC what our touchy feely army can do for them at home.And what loving caring stuff we do over there.

All in all it still has the following three in both videos I seen today.

The white woman
The immigrant
The slung c-7.

classic.Only thing its missing is again as I said before is the 80's mustache.

Thumbs down for me.


----------



## Shamrock

Want to see a funny video?  Look at the hull tech one.  Hair cuts optional, enormous mustaches not.  It's like a navy mullet.

Anybody remember the old POL tech recruiting video? That was a gooder.


----------



## Collin.t

That sort of scared me a bit when I first joined, all the videos had mustach men


----------



## nova_flush

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> What don't you like about them?  Never come to the table with just the problem, bring a solution along too.   ;D



I think they could add some music to the videos as a first .. we as military man and woman (for most of us) like them because we know what it represents .. but don't forget this is meant to attract people from the civil life into the military way of life. I know we are still in the beginning of our progress so I don't expect to be as good as the USMC's ad but is it normal that I find the Czech army recruiting video better than ours?


----------



## Sub_Guy

They updated the recruiting homepage too.....     http://www.recruiting.forces.gc.ca/Default.aspx?bhcp=1


----------



## Wookilar

I like them. Just watched both with a couple of my buds. Are they flashy? Sort of. More grit than flash. And why not? We are more grit than flash. The sound they have is good. We are not rock stars, we do not need to act like rock stars.

I never liked the last batch of "cool" vids that we would see in the theatres. I would always comment on them to ninerD, "I wish I had joined the cool army they show there."

These ones have fires (been there, got the t-shirt), floods (did that, got a hat), boarding parties (4 guys here in my Sqn here have done that), patrols (done that, but not in the "Stan), rescues ("So That Others May Live" thank you SAR Techs) and a "rescue" in the 'Stan (Victoria). Oh, and the Navy and Air Force stuff (not that they matter  ;D). Seems like a pretty realistic portrayal of what we do (no Ice Storm, G7 or APEC footage though).

I do not want any "American" style flash ads. That's not who we are or what we do. The last batch were our attempt at "cool." They sucked and were not realistic. I say tell the truth as much as we can.


----------



## Reccesoldier

All this talk of "American style flashy ads" pisses me off. 

 What the CF is finaly doing is what every single business must do in order to find and hire the right people for any position, we are finally targeting a demographic!  

We don't need a bunch of recruits who dream of passing out teddy bears we need warfighters who understand and accept that they may be placed in harms way and that is part and parcel of the job.  We don't need people like that guy who quit a week into BOTC because we were focused on learning to fight wars we need people who understand, in the words of Sun Tzu that "The art of war is of vital importance to the state, a road to either safety or ruin and hence under no circumstances can it be ignored".

Screw the naysayers.  War, war, war, fight, fight, fight?  You better freaking believe it!!!   :soldier:


----------



## boondocksaint

im with teflon


----------



## Cardstonkid

I was the first civilian in Calgary to see the new ad at the recruiting office.(Or so the recruiting officer told me) I saw it on the big screen they have there and visually it was stark, gritty and serious. I think it cast the mood of the current world situation pretty clearly. I found the music a bit too dark and broody. It could be better, I also have a problem with the graphic messages "Fight Fear" etc. I think the words are fine, but it has been demonstrated time and time again in marketing that a written word on a screen is often missed. A voice over will hit home better with text because it touches two senses, but just text alone demands that the viewer pay attention, and that is something that may not happen. All in all I would give the ads a "B" 

I think this ad will help pre-select some of the people who would consider joining up. If you do not like the idea of going to dangerous places and doing dangerous things then the military may not be the place for you. That being said the ad does make it clear the armed forces are doing serious, important things and that if you are looking for this kind of challenge then it is the job for you. I think it will have appeal. 

Other commercials could be used to convey different emotions, but they should keep the fighting element in. It is the core of what the Armed Forces should be and in that regard the ads are a home run.


----------



## boondocksaint

perhaps more trade specific?

instead of showing 5 seconds of one slice, maybe 30s towards navy/air/army on their own?


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

so consolidate the clips more so they don't jump around, I like that idea.


----------



## M Feetham

I just watched both videos last night on my buddies computer, I like em. It is defenitley trying to get peoples focus off of peacekeeping and trying to make them aware that in today's world we do indeed have to fight. It's about time. Hopefully we will be able to draw more people into the forces. Someone earlier mentioned about how much they are streamlining the recruiting process. here it is in a nut shell. Physical fitness standards are being lowered slightly, when candidates arrive at CFLRS, the first thing they do is the express test. If they pass carry on with training. If they fail the vo2 max by half the level they are supposed to attain or better, then they go to the Pat division where they will receive fitness training for 90 days then they redo the express and if they pass carry on with training, if they fail then it is a size 11 farewell in the a$$. If they fail the express by less than half of the level they require then they are gone right away. This is just coming into effect so no one really knows how it is going to work, but they are sending a lot of instructors into Pat division (Warrior Rehab program). Failure of other components of the express will be dealt with by re-test later in the course.
Cheers Feet


----------



## tomahawk6

A recruiting ad should be very focused so as to get one idea out. Like our Marine ad. After viewing the ads I did not feel moved to call the recruiter. Each of the services need to have their own ad.


----------



## Remius

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> A recruiting ad should be very focused so as to get one idea out. Like our Marine ad. After viewing the ads I did not feel moved to call the recruiter. Each of the services need to have their own ad.



Hmph, maybe.  The ads are getting an idea out.  Fight.  A far cry from Strong Proud.  But remember that we are targeting a Canadian audience not an American one.  What works south of the border won't necessarily fly up here.  

The marine ad is very well done but it didn't make me want to join the Marines either.  It made me want to be in a marine movie.  I felt like I was watching a movie preview.  Nothing wrong with that, and it is probably very effective in the US.

Personally the best video I've seen made was the Navy "Rolling Tide" or "Rolling Tide", something like that.  The music sounds like teh music from crimson tide, boarding actions, missile lauches, .50 cal going off and all that.


----------



## FSTO

Crantor said:
			
		

> Hmph, maybe.  The ads are getting an idea out.  Fight.  A far cry from Strong Proud.  But remember that we are targeting a Canadian audience not an American one.  What works south of the border won't necessarily fly up here.
> 
> The marine ad is very well done but it didn't make me want to join the Marines either.  It made me want to be in a marine movie.  I felt like I was watching a movie preview.  Nothing wrong with that, and it is probably very effective in the US.
> 
> Personally the best video I've seen made was the Navy "Rolling Tide" or "Rolling Tide", something like that.  The music sounds like the music from crimson tide, boarding actions, missile launches, .50 cal going off and all that.



The Navy clip is a promotional piece designed for presentations. It is so darned good that the Navy should just play it at Movie theatres. The musical score is from Gladiator.


----------



## nowhere_man

The new video's are good but like a number of you said there not great i mean there better then the old ones but they didn't want to make me call the recruiter like the Marine video's that career_radio-checker posted. They need more of the "Saving Private Ryan", Band of Brothers" music that makes people call the recruiter or it would for me. (and I'm pretty sure the JSDF video stole there music from Pirates of the Carabeen)


----------



## Klc

The new opening flash video on the recruiting site sent chills down my spine. By far the most effective ad yet, IMHO.


----------



## vonGarvin

Youtube has both commercials here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_6vK_JSSTo


----------



## pylon

This is the first time I've seen them in full (from Youtube) and I think they are very, very well done.  I haven't read everyone else's opinion, but I find them quite compelling and believe they will bring people to find out more about the CF.

Well done.



kc


----------



## McG

> Retired colonel fires salvo at Canadian forces recruiting ads
> Tim Naumetz, CanWest News Service; Ottawa Citizen
> Published: Monday, September 18, 2006
> 
> OTTAWA - *A retired Canadian Forces officer* who advised the Canadian Rights Tribunal when it ruled in 1989 that all armed service roles, including combat, must be available to women *is furious new Defence department ads focus on recruiting young men for action in Afghanistan.*
> 
> Retired Lt.-Col. Shirley Robinson says a department claim that focus-group tests showed men are more likely than women to be drawn to the Canadian Forces for combat-arms jobs could ''turn back the clocks'' for women's rights in the military.
> 
> ''You go back as far as you want, you're going to find women warriors, women in combat, we're not wusses,'' said Robinson.
> 
> She was responding to comments a defence official made while explaining the emphasis producers placed on young men looking for action and adventure in two ads being aired as a test campaign on Atlantic region television and cinema screens.
> 
> Uncharacteristically for Canada, the ads rely heavily on an appeal to ''fight with the Canadian Forces'' on rescue operations, fighting fires and floods and, controversially, in combat in Afghanistan.
> 
> Jennifer Hubbard, director of advertising and marketing for the department, said while explaining the background to the campaign that focus groups showed men who were interested in joining the forces tended to like adventure, teamwork and action. She added testing with women showed they were not as likely to be interested in combat.
> 
> ''To read that in the paper just sent me into orbit, along with Steve MacLean,'' said Robinson.
> 
> She praised Capt. Nichola Goddard, who last May became the first Canadian woman killed in action in combat as she was leading a forward artillery observation team in a battle against Taliban forces.
> 
> ''She enjoyed every minute of what she did, and she was leading those guys,'' said Robinson.
> 
> Robinson, who joined the forces as a registered nurse and rose through the ranks to eventually attend Canadian Forces Staff College in Toronto, was head of women personnel in the forces and advised Human Rights Tribunal lawyers for the 1989 ruling that opened the doors for women on all Canadian Forces occupations.
> 
> ''We've been there, done that, the debate is over,'' she said. ''Women are in combat, they're dying and what does it take to get through to people that we're not all alike? I'm too damned old to be, but I'd be over there fighting too, believe you me.''
> 
> Col. Kevin Cotten, deputy commander of the Canadian Forces recruiting group, backed up Hubbard's view, however, saying past studies have shown fewer women are interested in joining the forces for combat.
> 
> ''The propensity to enlist in the Canadian Forces is a little bit lower with women, and it's a fair bit lower when you're talking about the combat arms occupations, infantry, armoured, artillery, engineers, the true frontline folks,'' said Cotten. ''That's a fact, and Col. Robinson may not like it.''
> 
> The new ads portray women in several scenes, but they are clearly less prominent in the Afghanistan combat scenes, where a squad of infantry stealthily enters a village house to climb up a flight of stairs, toss a grenade into a room and rescue hostages.
> 
> A woman is briefly depicted going up the stairs carrying a rifle, but her face is partially masked by the rifle stock. Another infantry woman at the end of the ad looks down at the ground as a taller male officer, helmet off, speaks to another soldier. The women portrayed most prominently in the ads are a medic with a red cross on her fatigue sleeve and another who appears to be an officer in a civilian emergency.
> 
> Statistics provided by the Canadian Forces show women account for only 1.4 per cent of rank-and-file soldiers in combat arms occupations and 3.8 per cent of officers in combat arms. The figures show women make up 51 per cent of clerical personnel, and 44 per cent of officers in medical and dental occupations. They account for only 3.6 per cent of pilots.


----------



## Good2Golf

> ...
> ''We've been there, done that, the debate is over,'' she said. ''Women are in combat, they're dying and what does it take to get through to people that we're not all alike? I'm too damned old to be, but *I'd be over there fighting too*, believe you me.''
> ...



Actually, wouldn't she be over there praticing her nursing skills?

She seems to be one who pushes for "numeric equity" vice "equality"...perhaps if ratios/numbers/quantity are so important, as they appear to be with Lt.Col (Ret'd) Robinson, we should look at all the military occupations that are filled with more than 50% women, and kick the excess out of the CF?  Maybe this should be extended to all facets of society, civilian, governmental, etc...nurses, mechanics, construction workers, 50/50...right down the middle...male/female?

Frankly, I see her skewed view of things as a disservice to the women who are conducting and supporting operations.

G2G

*edit - added* Actually, she seems to have puffed herself up a bit to the reporter...If a Lieutenant-General is Chief of Military Personnel (then ADM HR(Mil)), I find it doubtful that a "mere" LCol would have been in charge of all the women in the CF.  Secondly, the phrasing seems somewhat strange about "rising through the ranks" to "attend" CFCSC.  I for one do not intend to _progress_ through the ranks with a goal to attending a course.  What this sounds like to me is that she attended the course but never Commanded a Unit at the LCol level...perhaps it's just me, but I see a lot of bluster that unfortunately for the women in the CF who do exemplary service day in and day out, muddles the issue of equality of service in support of, or in executing operations.


----------



## Garett

We had a little debate about this in one of my past university classes:  Since the Cbt Arms trades are open to women, if we ever got into a situation where we had to have conscription would women be conscripted into the Cbt Arms?  

Forcing men into the military in times of dire need has been difficult enough in Canada, I see it as being impossible with women.

This arose while we were talking about the women's rights movement and how the women's rights activists often fought for certain rights that they did not personally want, they just fought the issue because they were into fighting issues.  This could be the situation with Lt.-Col. Shirley Robinson (Ret'd), she fought for something she didn't want or couldn't take advantage of herself an a drastic unintended consequence could be opening up Cdn women to forced service in combat.


----------



## Teddy Ruxpin

She's an uneducated numpty of the first order... Air Force, nurse, retired years ago...  Number of Carl Gs humped?  Zero...


----------



## ThainC

If anyone is still lookin' to see the videos without having to go to the CTV site, here is a link to them on youtube - both are in one video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_6vK_JSSTo


----------



## ThainC

And while some people have mentioned more sound might be good, I spotted this on youtube.  Found it a little while after looking up the CF Ads on there, and thought while it's a tribute... it would make a good ad, well, a long one.  Just figured it was a good video, and would toss it in here than start a new thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TunOlS2uR-s

EDIT: Helps if I include the link.


----------



## 2 Cdo

Looks like she is merely continuing with the agenda she had when she was serving. :

It would seem my quote function failed, oh well. My comment was directed at the article MCG posted.


----------



## CdnArtyWife

Hubby and I caught the tail end of this commercial while flicking channels on Friday...and I finally managed to find it online.

You guys will love this!

Read the article about it on CTV.ca here: http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060913/CF_ads_060913/20060913?hub=Canada

And click on the video links in the lower right corner titled  

Canadian Forces recruiting advertisement: Fight 1 (courtesy Department of National Defence) 1:31 
Canadian Forces recruiting advertisement: Fight 2 (courtesy Department of National Defence) 1:31


----------



## foerestedwarrior

been posted a few times already.


----------



## big bad john

I like this rebuttal I saw today from a letter in The Ottawa Citizen to Lt.-Col. Shirley Robinson's ramblings.

http://server09.densan.ca/archivenews/060927/cit/060927b0.htm

PUBLICATION:  The Ottawa Citizen 
DATE:  2006.09.27 
EDITION:  Final 
SECTION:  News 
PNAME:  Letters 
PAGE:  A11 
BYLINE:  Lt.-Col. Christina Noble 
SOURCE:  The Ottawa Citizen 
ILLUSTRATION: Photo: Pat McGrath, The Ottawa Citizen / Lt.-Col. ChristinaNoble says members of the Canadian Forces, male or female, work as a team and have equal career opportunities.  
WORD COUNT:  349 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Female military personnel know their role is important

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Women aren't 'wusses,' retired colonel says as Forces focus on men, Sept. 19. 

I normally would not venture into the public forum to have this type of debate. However, retired Lt.-Col. Shirley Robinson's comments have had a very personal impact. My daughter is in the process of joining the military specifically to become a medical officer. We have had many discussions about women in the military, the working environment, why I joined the military and why I'm still in uniform. 

As I have explained to my daughter, I joined the Canadian Forces for several reasons. First, my salary was identical to my male colleagues -- not slightly less, not slightly more -- but exactly the same. To this day, this is not a reality enjoyed in the private sector. 

An equally important reason for joining the Canadian Forces was that I identified with the beliefs and values the Canadian Forces embodies. One of the pillars of this organization is that we are a team, and to ensure continued strength, it behooves us all to be team players. 

With the opportunity to speak out publicly in the media, there is an implicit and explicit responsibility to use it wisely. Lt.-Col. Robinson did not do so by stating: "You go back as far as you want, you're going to find women warriors, women in combat. We're not wusses." 

We actually know that we're not wusses -- we're rather smart that way. We know that our role in the military is important and not new -- indeed, it is a fact of life. 

So why are we even talking about it? Frankly, making gender an issue serves only to diminish our role in the Canadian Forces. There are many issues confronting the Canadian Forces that demand a joint effort to resolve. For instance, we are at war. 

My advice to my daughter has been and will continue to be that the Canadian Forces affords all who join endless and equal opportunities to excel in an unparalleled team environment. 

I speak only for myself, not for other women in uniform. But let us please stop wasting golden opportunities for meaningful, constructive commentary that would allow more positive contributions. 

Lt.-Col. Christina Noble, 

Ottawa


----------



## shadow

ThainC said:
			
		

> And while some people have mentioned more sound might be good, I spotted this on youtube.  Found it a little while after looking up the CF Ads on there, and thought while it's a tribute... it would make a good ad, well, a long one.  Just figured it was a good video, and would toss it in here than start a new thread.



I just watched this video, and I agree that it would make a great recruiting ad (maybe chopped down a bit).  It not only depicted the reality of the need to fight, but also portrayed images implying that what we are doing is important and that we are making a difference.
Thanks for posting this link.
Shadow


----------



## Teflon

> OTTAWA - A retired Canadian Forces officer who advised the Canadian Rights Tribunal when it ruled in 1989 that all armed service roles, including combat, must be available to women is furious new Defence department ads focus on recruiting young men for action in Afghanistan.



YAWN,.....errrr,... what did Lt.-Col. Retired Shirley Robinson say something? Good thing it wasn't important cause I missed it. YAWN


----------



## patrick666

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/cdnmilitary/women-cdnmilitary.html - Some interesting facts and statistics about women in the military. 

_About 15 per cent of Canadian Forces personnel are women. 

About *two per cent * of Canadian regular force combat troops are women. 

There are 99 female combat officers in the regular force. _ 

Naturally, wether on purpose or not, the add would sway towards attracting the other 98% of recruits into the Combat Arms which are male. I don't see a problem with that, it's just the way it is and has been.


----------



## warspite

If women want to fight in the combat arms all the power to them. But my impression is that this Lt.-Col. Shirley Robinson is complaining that we are trying to recruit more males into the forces and not trying to recruit females.  The forces need more recruits and my understanding has been that more men want to join than women so doesn't it make sense to use what funds are available to recruit them if it means More recruits? i.e. more bang for your buck.

Note: not saying that we shouldn't try to recruit women but only that is it worth it to sacrifice effectiveness(of recruiting) for political correctness? I say no.


----------



## Cdn_Chimo

I think the new ads are outstanding and will work in recruiting new members. It's about time.

Here's the new ads...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_6vK_JSSTo


----------



## Thompson_JM

Anyone else seen these??

I saw one at Boston Pizza in Burlington tonight (albeit with no sound) and was BLOWN AWAY!

It was everything that made me proud to serve.... Fight Terror, Fight Distress, Fight Chaos, Fight with the Canadian Forces.....

man...... I felt proud to serve after watching that tonight... I only wish i could have heard the Audio soundtrack.... 

Though even without the sound it was a very powerfull mesage, and one that i am glad to be a part of.

any idea where i could find a copy of this on the net? (no luck on the recruiting website... go figure...  :-\ )

Regards,
  Josh


----------



## Thompson_JM

I like the videos... though they arnt perfect they are a definate baby step in the right direction...  hopefully its a start at recruiting warriors and those with a real desire to serve, versus those who want to pay for school while pushing paper...  Every Trade is important to make the Forces work, but INHO every CF member should be a soldier, Airmen or Sailor first, and their trade second.  Getting ready to go over has given me new perspective on that..... but thats another rant.... 

I like the videos.... to me they are bringing back a sense of pride in our jobs that the canadian public will get to see... its more direct on what we as a whole accually do. and most importantly, its finally a step in the right direction for our recruiting ads.


----------



## rmacqueen

Cpl Thompson said:
			
		

> I like the videos... though they arnt perfect they are a definate baby step in the right direction...  hopefully its a start at recruiting warriors
> I like the videos.... to me they are bringing back a sense of pride in our jobs that the canadian public will get to see... its more direct on what we as a whole accually do. and most importantly, its finally a step in the right direction for our recruiting ads.


I could not disagree more.  Having some experience in advertising it, once again, looks like an ad agency pulling the wool over the clients eyes(in this case the CF).  While many here have commented that they like them the ads are not aimed at the people who belong to this site.  We already believe in the cause, know what the CF is and don't need to be recruited; we already know what the ads are depicting.

The problem is, the people that the ads need to reach are those that know very little, if anything, about what the CF does and stands for.  These ads play into the public perception that the CF is like what they see in movies, lots of combat and nothing else.  Try viewing these ads as if you knew nothing about the CF, it paints a different picture.  Even the "rescue" ad is off base.  I know that it says in small print what they are doing but it ignores the way people view advertising.  When was the last time anyone here actually paid attention to the small print in a TV ad?  If you are not actually paying close attention to it then the BC fires look like a war zone not a rescue situation.  Also, the emphasis on the word fight just adds to the perception.

These ads were obviously produced by a company that has little understanding of the difference between the American and Canadian mentality.  Numerous studies have shown that the Canadian consumer views advertising completely different than Americans and, while these ads would probably do well in the States, I very much doubt these will be effective in Canada.  I believe these ads will attract the wrong type of person to the CF, you know, the ones whose first question when they are recruited is "when do I get a rifle?" and "will I get to shoot someone?"  Are these the sort of people the CF wants? (read Fire and Ice,The United States, Canada and the Myth of Converging Values by Michael Adams for more info)

As for the value of focus groups, let's just say that in the 80's the "new" Coke was also focus grouped and look at how successful that was.


----------



## boondocksaint

rmacqueen, if these video's are not the right direction, what is?

To me these video's certainly have room for improvement, but , I dont mind at all it's targeting the people out there who actually have an interest in getting dirty and seeing combat. I agree _most_ people outside the CF know little about what we do, the ones that are informed generally go for the Tech job I cant pronounce and have never heard of. We need those folks. But we need trigger pullers now more then ever.

you know, the ones whose first question when they are recruited is "when do I get a rifle?" and "will I get to shoot someone?"  Are these the sort of people the CF wants?

Yep, they are. It's easier to reign someone in then to 'bump' them into the next level of a fighting mindset. Besides, I have every/some/a bit of faith in the selection process.

As far as I can tell, all advertising is about pulling the wool over our eyes, it's how successfully it works that determines good or bad commercials. It certainly beats " so do you like camping? fishing? hunting? then son the Infantry is for you"

they pulled it over my eyes


----------



## rmacqueen

boondocksaint said:
			
		

> As far as I can tell, all advertising is about pulling the wool over our eyes, it's how successfully it works that determines good or bad commercials. It certainly beats " so do you like camping? fishing? hunting? then son the Infantry is for you"
> 
> they pulled it over my eyes


I was referring to the 100's of thousands of dollars the CF would have paid an ad agency to produce what, IMO, will only increase the number of rejects the CF recruits and not attract the type of person who will want to make a career out of the forces.  If the goal was strickly to attract combat soldiers of the "give me a gun" type, what is currently happening in Afghanistan will do that, no need for to spend money on ads.


----------



## boondocksaint

Agreed, it might do better to have ads specifically geared towards trades/arms. Instead of trying to broad brush the entire CF in 30s


----------



## medaid

Just a thought...I dont know if ppl have already brought this up. IN the video, the part which said Afghanistan, the troops are not wearing AR Cad. I know...I know... we started off there in TWs... but if they wanted to create a more convincing vid. blah blah blah... right? 


I actually like the new videos. Its much more of a reality then the old 'Strong, Proud, Toda's Canadian Forces' ones dont you think?


----------



## carl_54

I think the new ads are definitely better then the old one. It's not perfect but I think it'll still be effective in recruiting some guys.

To those that mentioned advertising for certain trades, I think that's a great idea. That's what the Americans do, and I think their ads are a hell of a lot more effective than ours. I'm not saying we should be like the Americans. A little more patriotism in ads wouldn't hurt either.

Carl


----------



## orange.paint

boondocksaint said:
			
		

> Agreed, it might do better to have ads specifically geared towards trades/arms. Instead of trying to broad brush the entire CF in 30s



I really like that idea actually.Then the CF annually could look and see that they were lacking infanteers and EME(examples).So produce the video on that specific trade.Or make the ad's all about combat arms and put in a little blurb at the end telling the masses we have many other exciting jobs.

Personally I would have to say (no I don't have numbers) that most youth join the army to fight.Then those with speciality backgrounds (mechanic,plumber etc) would be actively seeking a job in that specific trade anyway.I really don't know many guys who join to not get action, adventure and travel.Therefor pushing them towards combat arms.

Even if they took the already made videos off the recruitment site and got combat camera to edit them to 30 seconds.


----------



## unknowngiver

k they should have a gud background music on...i dont like the current...


----------



## old medic

Please refrain from using netspeak.


----------



## Thompson_JM

Like i said earlier. it still beats the hell out of the "Puddle Run" Video......  baby steps guys, baby steps.... at least its starting to move in the right direction...


----------



## career_radio-checker

Cpl Thompson said:
			
		

> any idea where i could find a copy of this on the net? (no luck on the recruiting website... go figure...  :-\ )



They are there now, in the media section. Interesting to note one of those videos has Mark Graham in it -- the soldier killed by the American friendly fire incident last month.


----------



## patrick666

> They are there now, in the media section. Interesting to note one of those videos has Mark Graham in it



I believe that was the "Life in the Canadian Forces" video. It was quite sad to watch as he was one of the primary recruits being interviewed during the video.


----------



## Grimmlok

I was watching The Comedy Network of all things, or rather half watching it with my back turned as I chatted on the computer.  I'd seen all the US Army, Marine, Navy, Airforce commercials on various networks and had become accustomed to their rather grating style.

"Fly awesome aircraft/you'll totally be a navy SEAL blasting evil terrorists! Jump in a tank and go racing through the desert all to the sounds of some crappy rock group wailing away!"

However, as I chatted on the computer I heard this music come on.. quite quiet, almost pensive. It twigged my artistic sensibilities enough to turn around and watch, and what I saw was quite impressive.

Color drained scenes, obviously inspired by all the challenges and dangers our military forces have to face in a variety of situations, played out under the dominating theme of HELPING PEOPLE.. not galavanting around, warmongering or glorifying bloody conflict. Help, stability, order, compassion. Humanitarian efforts mixed in with disaster relief and the current operation in afghanistan (again, not showcasing any kind of bloodlust).

Frankly, I found the spot engaging, thought provoking and in true Canadian fashion quite understated. Less really was more.

I thought it to be well balanced, by not disguising the fact that these situations DO come with a certain amount of danger (I'm sorry, but whoever was complaining that the commercial showed actual firearms needs a reality check. What do you expect them to carry into a combat zone, sticks?) but also highlighting the reconstruction, peacekeeping and disaster relief efforts our forces engage in without being heavy handed on the fighting aspect or the schmaltz that Canadian Forces are alien to actual confrontation.

I actually joined this messageboard to relay my impression of it.. Frankly, I'm, for a well funded and equipped military that CAN carry out humanitarian and peacekeeping missions (where we earn our international cachet of being honest brokers) as well as being able to put force behind these actions if necessary.  I don't swallow the hook and line about "there's evildoer's about trying to kill us for our freedoms!" because, frankly, that's infantile.  Realism is needed, combined with compassion and willingness to try and make a better world and to do it having looked at ALL sides of the issues.. not just one polarizing one. 

Anyhow.. my 2 cents. take em or leave em lol


----------



## Pvt. Pukepail

This thread is interesting- me and my old man constantly have discussions over the Canadian Military's ineffective use of advertisement, versus the American military's advertisements which are way more successful.  The problem is, the Canadian military is not targetting the appropriate demographic with their ads.  They make our military seem like some kind of boy scouts for adults, with their emphasis on 'team work' and 'adventure' and all this crap.  I mean that stuff is all well and good, but it does nothing to attract the demographic that they SHOULD be targetting, which is the macho, gung-ho, lets kick some *** types.  And I know the military isn't necessarily looking for those types of people, but then that's part of the problem.  The regular forces are in a crap state as anyone with even a little bit of knowledge of the forces should know (and if you don't think so, you need to pull yourself out of the little fantasy world of yours), and part of the problem is, that it's just not attracting the RIGHT kind of people.

Look, it's like this- The military isn't a job for just anyone.  It's a job for a very specific type of person, and our government unfortunately doesn't appear to understand this concept.  They're trying to make it universally appealing, which is WRONG-WRONG-WRONG!  It's like trying to make police work appeal to anarchists.  Just doesn't work man.  See, the American's have it right.  The whole "Army of One' campaign was HUGELY successful down there.  I forget what the figures were during that ad campaign, but I recall seeing somewhere that the recruitment rate was quite high then, and is still quite high.  Because they target exactly the kind of people who WANT to be in the military- the kind of people that want to go out and BE somebody, and stand out, and fight and kick ***.  Sure, it's a lot of propoganda half-the-time, but it works!

I get a kick out of the Canadian forces advertisements.  They're so...wimpy.  Yay, be part of a team!  Adventure!  Yeah, well, gee wiz Wally, sounds like fun!  I mean, the commercials don't need to be flashy or whatever, but for crap sakes, they need to drop the whole 'boy scouts' angle that they're going with.  Stop appealing to the boys, and start appealing to the MEN (and rough and tough WOMEN) who would do well with a career in the forces.

(and I just saw the new ads posted above, and that is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.  That's what they need to do!  Well...that is until some pissant Liberal government regains power and switches them back to the more kid friendly ads)


----------



## Quag

Cpl Thompson said:
			
		

> hopefully its a start at recruiting warriors and those with a real desire to serve, versus those who want to pay for school while pushing paper...  Every Trade is important to make the Forces work, but INHO every CF member should be a soldier, Airmen or Sailor first, and their trade second.  Getting ready to go over has given me new perspective on that..... but thats another rant....



I would have to completely disagree with you here.

I *was* one of those people that wanted school payed for.   However, I developed a strong love for the military and am as proud to serve as anyone else in the CF.

The incentive is there to show young officer candidates what the military is like.  I can tell you that most people that are in it for solely the free school, do not make it past IAP, as they do not see the worth in it. 

Ask around.  Talk to officers that received subsidized education.  I think you will be surprised to find out that a lot of them were initially in it for the free schooling, but have developed such a passion and pride in their profession, that they have decided to make it life long careers.

Cheers


----------



## medaid

awww dang it! They tell me NOW after I joined because I love my country and want to serve it, that I also get em free edumacation out of it? ;D


----------



## Wookilar

Quag, I think you missed the boat a little. Officers are not the only ones getting subsidized education.

I have seen a lot of this "But I'm a technician" crap over the years, and I think that's what Thompson is talking about. There are too many (in my opinion) that still believe it.

I may not be an infantry soldier (never was, never pretend to be), but I am a soldier. I take all this Army stuff very serious and believe that maintaining basic soldiering skills is essential. To everything.

There are people out there, that do not remember that they are in a COMBAT service support trade or even that they joined the Army. Case in point: When 1 Svc Bn moved from Calgary to Edmonton we had almost a 60% turn over. I was on advance party and (as a one hook) was teaching Army Snr NCO's on how to put together webbing and ruck sacks as well as assisting a WO teaching C-7 TOET's to the same people. More than a few had never fired the C-7. Ever. This was 1996 and the C-7 had been in service since ....?.... 1988-89? (someone correct me on that one please)

Attitudes similar to that are rampant among many of the non-Combat Arms types here at RMC. I do not see this issue going away anytime soon, and the more we can do to make people realize that they need to have basic field skills, the better.

Question: For new recruits, the path is now Basic, then SQ, then trades? Despite my recent time spent at CFLRS, I have no idea how it works anymore and I keep hearing new acronyms and career paths floating around. I love living in a bubble.


----------



## Quag

Wookilar,

I don't think I missed the boat at all.  Read the first part of the quote:

"hopefully its a start at recruiting warriors and those with a real desire to serve, versus those who want to pay for school while pushing paper..."

I know that subsidized education is available to everyone in the CF, but I felt that the statement was quite apparently directed at the officer candidates, as they are the ones that mostly receive subsidized education at the beginning of the career ( I know NCM's can too such as Av Tech's etc.. but just try to see where I'm going here).

Regardless, not a big deal.  I just wanted to share a different a view.

For new RECRUITS, the path is Basic, SQ (for army types I believe) then trade qualifying like you said.  For OFFICER candidates, the path is IAP, BOTP, SLT, CAP (for the army types, NETP for navy, PFT for pilots etc...), then trade training.  This is a VERY bleak outline of the process, things are substituted and depending on trade, can be very different.
Someone else will give you furthur in depth knowledge on this that is knowledgable on the subject.


Cheers


----------



## pbi

Hey-that Czech video kicks ***. I feel like buying a ticket to Prague.

Interesting that one of the world's most unwarlike nations, that only recently became a country again, can have such a cool recruiting video yet we chew our collective fingernails that we might offend people by projecting the truth about our profession.

Cheers


----------



## GDawg

Pte Pukepail...wow.

You've clearly earned your verbal.

The "Army of One" idea is idiotic.

The military IS about teamwork, we don't need angry bedwetting loners signing up, we need intelligent teamplayers, who are willing to become team leaders. I know the previous ad campaign wasn't cool, but it did the job.

Adventure is a big part of why some people join, particularly the reserves. To present every single aspect of membership in the CF as "hardcore" isn't accurate. We have well over 80 trades that aren't combat arms and they need some airtime too.

The new campaign tends to present the mission, as opposed to individual jobs, which in my opinion affords all trades in the CF a level of coverage, whereas the US Navy campaign pretty much says you can be a SEAL or a fighter pilot... w00t 0MG!1!

Anyways, I gotta go have lunch, we're toasting "Jimmy" today, I'm sure other folks here will have commentary for you as well.


----------



## Pvt. Pukepail

Christ, does everyone have to turn everything into a personal attack on these board?  Jeeze, freedom of opinion was invented for a reason there...


Besides which, I didn't say I necessarily BELIEVED in the whole army of one (if you read my post thoroughly, you'd notice I said much of it was propoganda), but the figures do speak for themselves.  That Army of One campaign generated a lot of recruitment for the US army- that's a fact.  It's about marketing man, that's all.  How you market your product, service or whatever and especially WHO you market it to will greatly determine how much success you have. 

The fact is, while YOU may think the idea was idiotic, guess what, it worked.


----------



## GDawg

Well, our campaign, new and old _STILL_ works.
At any rate, I am fairly sure the US Army failed to achieve its recruitment goal last year...


----------



## MarkOttawa

Check them out and vote.
http://cjunk.blogspot.com/2006/10/new-generation-recruitment-ads.html

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## tlg

I personally like the Canadian Forces Recruitings Ads. They appeal to my sense of ... well I don't know what they appeal to but they do something. The others I'm just not feeling, especially the USMC ad. I don't know what they were thinking, maybe that being in the USMC means that you can think fast on your feet. Now I know what the CF ads do, they appeal to what little emotions I have. Leave it to the Canadians.


----------



## vonGarvin

British Mechanised Infantry

"For your mates"...love that line.


----------



## Korus

I  saw a couple of the new CF ones on the TV recently. Which is funny, because I rarely watch TV anymore..

They made me want to get out and join the army again.


----------



## Devlin

von Grognard said:
			
		

> British Mechanised Infantry
> 
> "For your mates"...love that line.



I like the Brit ones as well, I make a few trips over there with my new job and catch the commercials on the "telly" they are quite good.


----------



## [RAMMSTEIN]

Can any one tell me where I can get the techno music from the old commercial? 
PS: what is the US recriutment goal ?


----------



## GDawg

From what I've read they had 73,000 accessions into the Army and the goal was 80000 for FY2005. It looks like this years goal was 70000 and they got 72000. I'm not sure if accession also includes transfers from the reserves or not.


----------



## ThatsLife

The thing that really annoys me is when anything is related to action it's automatically "similar to the U.S." God forbid we should show hand-to-hand combat, people might mistake our recruiting ad for a jet li movie!


----------



## dont.get.it.48

We got new commercials lately. you can check one of them out on www.recruiting.forces.gc.ca 
i saw another one on TV yesterday. There so much better than the old ones. 

allot of peoples opinions from what i heard was in a nut shell "you join, you die" and that the military is just there for wars

the new commercials show that the military is there to help Canada and other countries in distress from flooding and all that. I think they will help against the stereo type.


----------



## exsemjingo

Be careful about how you say things around here, Pte. Pukepail.  You can pretty much say whatever you want, but it has to be said nicely.
Anyway, I agree with your take on our commercials.  When I want information, I look at our Canadian Forces recruiting site.
When I feel the need for a little inspiration, I go to the US Army or Marines sites.


----------



## Lost_Warrior

The Aussies had the most hype for sure.   The CDN ones made me feel like it was the end of the fricken world...


----------



## IrishCanuck

That USMC ad was just awful in my opinion..

I liked the US Army and the CF ads.


----------



## SoF

I prefered the British and Australian ads because of the high level of action. The Marine vid was definitely the worst; the beginning looked like a Gillette commericial.


----------



## gnome123

Australian #2 add id say. Very up beat and exciting. I don't really get appealed to commercials though and i think CF wasn't to the point... O wells just my oppion.  >


----------



## Munner

I have always thought this Czech recruiting ad was one of the best I've seen


http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=473158482184601925&q=Czech


----------



## CanEhdian

I liked the Canadian one because it had the quality but it was a little too long.


----------



## Korus

Marine Recruiting video, or remake of Quake E1M7?


----------



## chrisf

Actually, I thought the USMC ad was an ad for Gillette razors at first...


----------



## Big Foot

Wow, and here I thought our old recruiting ads were bad, who did the USMC hire to create that abomination?


----------



## patrick666

I thought the guy in the USMC ad was gong to lose his arm and turn to the camera to say "I can put my arm back on - you can't... you're not a marine"


----------



## Blunt Object

I thought the Brithish ones were really good, but I still prefer the CF ads. THe USMC one on the other hand looked like that old show "American GLadiators" or a video game or something.


----------



## CanEhdian

If the Canadian Forces starting making commercials with roided up mullet heads, who wouldn't join the army?

A Canadian soldier vs. The entire female cast of American Gladiators would make a huge difference in new recruits.


----------



## Inspir

The Czech recruiting video is really good. Even a little better than the CF ads in my opinion. The USMC recruiting ad is OK I guess... if your looking to recruit those gaming computer geeks  :dontpanic:


----------



## patrick666

It kind of reminded me of Lord of the Rings when Gandalf fights the huge red demon on the bridge.


----------



## career_radio-checker

Patrick H. said:
			
		

> It kind of reminded me of Lord of the Rings when Gandalf fights the huge red demon on the bridge.



A Balroc?
I guess Gandalf must of been a marine.


----------



## Paik

The "British Mechanized Infantry" one reminded me of the whole Trainspotting "Choose Life" speech that Renton gives. I liked it, but I like the new CF ones the best.

And, that marines one was just awful.


----------



## Chestnut

I really like the new Canadian recruiting video(s), but the Brit Mech Video came up close behind.  

The USMC ad is absolute garbage.


----------



## Crush

The Czech one was great, the US Army "Army Strong" seemed a little self-righteous but was good just the same.

USMC? I expected more from them. This ad? Pathetic.

The CF ones really caught me off guard when I first saw them. 
They are TOTALLY different than anything I've come to expect from CF recruiting.
I liked the recent "STRONG-PROUD" ads and thought they were going in the right direction with that campaign.

This new "FIGHT..." campaign is great! 

We've come a long way from the old 1970's/80's "there's no life like it" TV ads with the 'men's glee club' singing the jingle (for anyone who remembers those). ;D  Mind you, so has the CF...


----------



## exsemjingo

Patrick H. said:
			
		

> I thought the guy in the USMC ad was gong to lose his arm and turn to the camera to say "I can put my arm back on - you can't... you're not a marine"



I completely forgot about that until just now.  Maybe their target demographic is just a shade to young to catch that.


----------



## Journeyman

Neither the USMC ad, nor the 2nd Canadian (everything DomOps) ad, included parachuting. Even the Brit Mech Infantry managed to sneak a jump sequence in at the end - - social climbers - - as though Mech guys aren't bunji-corded to their vehicles.  ;D


----------



## George Wallace

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Neither the USMC ad, nor the 2nd Canadian (everything DomOps) ad, included parachuting. Even the Brit Mech Infantry managed to sneak a jump sequence in at the end - - social climbers - - as though Mech guys aren't bunji-corded to their vehicles.  ;D


That would have meant that they would have had to have real soldiers in the shots, not actors....  ;D


----------



## Bobby Rico

I think the new CF recruiting ads are pretty sharp.  I was not really a big fan of the old ones, with the kind of cheesy music and everything, but the new ones seem pretty visceral (not a lot of flash, but a lot of substance).  The American Army/Navy/Airforce ads I find are just too flashy- made for and by the MTV generation with the short attention spans and ADD.  There was Marine corps ad on awhile back with this guy with a sword killing some really poor CGI monster, always made me laugh...Flagrant false advertisement!


----------



## Paik

Bobby Rico said:
			
		

> I was not really a big fan of the old ones...



I used to work in a movie theatre and had to see the old ones over and over and over and over when they were part of the pre-trailer ads. Was I brainwashed into wanting to join the military? Perhaps. But I do know that I'd be happy if I didn't have to see them again any time soon.


----------



## Bobby Rico

Dude...I worked at a theater and had to put up with those commercials too...so bad.  The really cheesy guitar riffs and the cheering bugged me.  ;D


----------



## exsemjingo

George Wallace said:
			
		

> That would have meant that they would have had to have real soldiers in the shots, not actors....  ;D


Sometimes you do want actors, though  This month's issue of Maclean's has a pull-out ad for the CF.  One picture shows soldiers at boot level only, and they're not polished.


----------



## Jaydub

exsemjingo said:
			
		

> Sometimes you do want actors, though  This month's issue of Maclean's has a pull-out ad for the CF.  One picture shows soldiers at boot level only, and they're not polished.



Were they Parade Boots, or Combat Boots?


----------



## CanEhdian

The Canadian Forces commercials are a one time deal, the first time I saw it I watched but now it just seems to carry on forever and I usually end up changing the channel within seconds of seeing it.


----------



## RangerRay

That Czech one was pretty good...

I really liked this British Army air assault one though:

http://www.army.mod.uk/linked_files/rhqpara/Clip_6_Air_Assult_30sec_EngLg_Prog.wmv

I liked the tempo of the Aussie ones too.


----------



## exsemjingo

Combat boots.  Of course they get dirty during the day, and taking time to polish them would lengthen the time needed to pose for this ad, but that was the point.


----------



## Punk

I like the Canadian one, it seems very dignified. I also like the British Infantry one.


----------



## cobbler

Those Aussie ones are just promos, not TV commercials.


----------



## ambex

I was really surprised when I saw the new Canadian ones on tv last night, blew me away. The USMC video was really dumb, and yes I thought it was a Gillete commercial too. I liked the part with the fan though, reminded me of a "play safe" add that was on tv when I was a kid. The British Mech video was really good as well. The Aussie videos were to techno, good but not for me. The best one is the Czech video, very good.


----------



## Krypto

The Czech had me when they showed the Hind.

The Soviets had some sweet hardware.


----------



## DeepThaut

> National Defence to unveil newest recruiting ads
> MA-08.006 - April 14, 2008
> 
> Ottawa – The Honourable Peter Gordon MacKay, Minister of National Defence and Minister of the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, will unveil the latest television advertisements in the Canadian Forces’ current advertising campaign, Fight, as well as the updated recruitment website (www.forces.ca).
> 
> WHAT: Latest Fight advertisements and updated website launch
> 
> WHERE: Canadian War Museum, Barney Danson Theatre 1 Vimy Place, Ottawa, ON K1R 1C2
> 
> WHEN: Tuesday, April 15th, 2008
> 
> TIME: 3:30 pm
> 
> Media are asked to arrive at the theatre approximately 30 mins. in advance of the start time. Please confirm your attendance with Nathalie Houle at houle.mn@forces.gc.ca by 10:00am Tuesday, April 15th.



http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/newsroo..._e.asp?id=2621

So in a nutshell, tomorrow the DND will show the first new recruiting commercial and air a new recruiting website. Stay tuned because guarenteed it will be on youtube shortly and it will make it's way to this website in some way or an other.


----------



## Mike Baker

Sweet, first I have heard about this. Going to have to keep up on it.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Sweet,

hope there are more car chases, and a story line this time.

dileas

tess


----------



## geo

FWIW, I think the current "fight" TV Advert was great & without many words was able to transmit a message.  A great improvement over the various ads we've had these past 30 years.  I hope this one will be just as effective as the last....


----------



## TN2IC

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Sweet,
> 
> hope there are more car chases, and a story line this time.
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess




op:


----------



## RangerRay

As long as it isn't those cheesy politically correct "Team Super Friends" type of ads... :-X

Edit to add:  I hope they are like the ad for the Ukranian Army!  ;D


----------



## geo

Considering that we are, once again a war fighting army I expect no less than an Advert that stresses what we do...


----------



## jollyjacktar

They did film some of it on HMCS St Johns in Nov/Dec last.  My counterpart there did not say what they did for the ad, but I know it was a couple of days in total of work.  I expect it may be more of the same type of stuff on the current ad, Navywise.


----------



## geo

There is after all, a limit to how much the ad can contain... considering it's either 30 or 60 seconds long.


----------



## Proud_Newfoundlander

Heres some blasts from the Past

Here Canadian Forces ad from the late 90's --early 00's

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5K69jwRkm04&feature=related

Heres one from 1980 (my favourite lol) ;D

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mDSaEWdMbI4


----------



## armyvern

RangerRay said:
			
		

> ...
> Edit to add:  I hope they are like the ad for the Ukranian Army!  ;D



This One?  <--- I like the dubbed version much better!!  ;D

Ohh!! And a Russian one -- they seem to have a theme going; I can't quite figure out what it is though.  >

Look guys -- He's bringing her flowers!!


----------



## Welshy

> Media Advisory
> National Defence to unveil newest recruiting ads
> 
> MA-08.006 - April 14, 2008
> 
> Ottawa – The Honourable Peter Gordon MacKay, Minister of National Defence and Minister of the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, will unveil the latest television advertisements in the Canadian Forces’ current advertising campaign, Fight, as well as the updated recruitment website (www.forces.ca).
> 
> WHAT: Latest Fight advertisements and updated website launch
> 
> WHERE: Canadian War Museum, Barney Danson Theatre 1 Vimy Place, Ottawa, ON K1R 1C2
> 
> WHEN: Tuesday, April 15th, 2008
> 
> TIME: 3:30 pm
> 
> Media are asked to arrive at the theatre approximately 30 mins. in advance of the start time. Please confirm your attendance with Nathalie Houle at houle.mn@forces.gc.ca by 10:00am Tuesday, April 15th.



http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=2621

Should be interesting to see what they have produced this time. They just made one last year, so I am surprised that a new one has been made already.


----------



## Maelstrom

I saw the new ad on T.V. about an hour ago. It's along the lines of the previous 'Fight' commercials but focusing on distress and domestic problems. SAR Techs and Rangers head towards a crashed plane somewhere in the Arctic. I really like how they are doing this ad campaign, there is very little sound so everyone in the room focuses on the picture and what comes next. One of my roommates said 'its got to be a new movie', and all I could do was smile and let it play out.


----------



## aesop081

I just saw the one where theres a drug raid on a ship going on......


----------



## Mike Baker

Just saw one for SarTech. Really good IMO.


----------



## karl28

I saw the SAR Tech Add  and thought it was done well .  I  would be interested in seeing the others sounds like they have more than one in mind .


----------



## Maelstrom

If you go to the recruiting website, www.forces.ca , you can see the minute long ad. It's the two put together, SAR tech and Naval drug bust. Seems like they broke it down into two 30 second spots for television.


----------



## dwalter

I love those new videos, I think they are just as good, or even better as the other fight videos. Also, the new website is pretty awesome.


----------



## geo

I saw the SAR / Ranger rescue of a downed aircraft last night.... no words but - hits the spot... I liked it.


----------



## Mike Baker

In my opinion, I liked the way the site was before, because it was a lot easier to navigate, but the way it is now, I can get use to.


----------



## aesop081

When do we get to see ads with ...oh....i don't know

1- Destroyer shooting down something with SM-2 missile
2- Halifax class shooting a harpoon missile at something
3- CF-18s straffing HMCS Huron
4- Combat engineers destroying a bridge
5- Sea King droping a Mk46 torp 
6- Infantry doing whatever the infantry does
7- Artillery battery in the middle of a fire mission

Etc,etc, etc.......

You see what i'm getting at ?


----------



## Mike Baker

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> When do we get to see ads with ...oh....i don't know
> 
> 1- Destroyer shooting down something with SM-2 missile
> 2- Halifax class shooting a harpoon missile at something
> 3- CF-18s straffing HMCS Huron
> 4- Combat engineers destrying a bridge
> 5- Sea King droping a Mk46 torp
> 6- Infantry doing whatever the infantry does
> 7- Artillery battery in the middle of a fire mission
> 
> Etc,etc, etc.......
> 
> You see what i'm getting at ?


I'm sure that those would be some amazing ads. I too would like to see some like that. 

Baker


----------



## wannabe SF member

Be careful, these kind of ads might make some people believe that the army's job is to fight.


----------



## Panzer Grenadier

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> When do we get to see ads with ...oh....i don't know
> 
> 1- Destroyer shooting down something with SM-2 missile
> 2- Halifax class shooting a harpoon missile at something
> 3- CF-18s straffing HMCS Huron
> 4- Combat engineers destroying a bridge
> 5- Sea King droping a Mk46 torp
> 6- Infantry doing whatever the infantry does
> 7- Artillery battery in the middle of a fire mission
> 
> Etc,etc, etc.......
> 
> You see what i'm getting at ?



Can't have any of that. We are the Canadian Forces - we hand out Canadian flags, lolipops and sing koombye-ya.

Looks like recruitment ads are back to mediocrity...


----------



## aesop081

Panzer Grenadier said:
			
		

> Looks like recruitment ads are back to mediocrity...



They never really left......


----------



## daftandbarmy

Look out! the Canadian public just noticed that the new adds are missing something. Never pass a fault.

Latest Canadian Forces ads omit Afghan mission

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080417.wforcesads17/BNStory/Afghanistan/?cid=al_gam_nletter_newsUp


----------



## geo

Shhh... it's a conspiracy!


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

One thought during those videos: They are really well done, but that is just too much warm and fuzzy. Just my 0.02.


----------



## geo

Yup... the last ones were a bit "edgier"  A bit more "shock & awe"
However, between MsM coverage of the war in Afghanistan AND these ads, "Joe Public" gets the picture.


----------



## aesop081

geo said:
			
		

> However, between MsM coverage of the war in Afghanistan AND these ads, "Joe Public" gets the picture.



 :rofl:

Yeah.....riiiiight !!!


----------



## daftandbarmy

Interesting contrast. Female Marine in martial arts pose in front of her troops... be still my beating heart:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/21/business/media/21adcol.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&ref=business&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin


----------



## medaid

I love the new recruiting adds and they are great! I liked th NBP with weapons drawn, and *gasp* pointint at the naughty, naughty boys on the smuggling vessel. I also like how that one ended with shots of the seizure that occured, with a faux press conference, nice touch.

Also really liked the SAR one... We're finally getting better at this PR thing... Slowly but surely.


----------



## geo

Why is it I get this impression that the Military had the last series put together & released on their own okie-dokie while this one had to get blessed by our political masters?

Just an impression


----------



## blacktriangle

They don't show the army at all, and the navy and air force aren't shooting at anything... :-\

What a shock it will be when kids join up and are trained to actually fire a rifle or launch something that makes a big boom..


----------



## Maelstrom

popnfresh said:
			
		

> They don't show the army at all, and the navy and air force aren't shooting at anything... :-\
> 
> What a shock it will be when kids join up and are trained to actually fire a rifle or launch something that makes a big boom..



Not like the mission in Afghanistan and subsequent media coverage are showing our combat role at all.  :


Edit: Grammar


----------



## daftandbarmy

I wonder what 'brand' they are trying to convey through these wussified ads? Lots to learn...

The brand is the business


“Today more than half of the total stock market value of corporations lies in intangible assets such as brands … The brand is the business.” This statement by Shelly Lazarus, chairman and CEO of Ogilvy & Mather Worldwide at the World Effie Festival 2008, sums up why brand building is important for companies. In this climate of the brand imperative, advertising gurus converged on Singapore for the conference which celebrates advertising effectiveness. 

The success of the brand is not always in the hands of the advertising agency or the corporation’s marketing department. Simon Clift, chief marketing officer of Unilever, says that the current marketing environment is more exciting now than it’s ever been. “In the old days we used to choose which brands became famous. Now consumers choose because they can tune in and tune out on their own terms, and so you have to take risks in order to be noticed. If you’re not noticed, you’re dead.”



http://knowledge.insead.edu/BrandIsTheBusiness080407.cfm


----------



## benny88

popnfresh said:
			
		

> They don't show the army at all, and the navy and air force aren't shooting at anything... :-\
> 
> What a shock it will be when kids join up and are trained to actually fire a rifle or launch something that makes a big boom..



I think it's good to show that not every trade in the CF DOES launch things that make big booms. I think a bigger problem than people joining and being suprised that they will operate the C-7 is people thinking that everyone has to be a Rambo-esque individual. 

I'm suprised they were even allowed to use the word "Fight" in the ads at all. Doesn't that seem a little...you know, mean?  :


----------



## geo

Benny...
wait till you get to recruit school..... they give you a C7 and you ask.... wazzat for?

WRT the "mean"... "suck it up buttercup"


----------



## benny88

geo said:
			
		

> Benny...
> wait till you get to recruit school..... they give you a C7 and you ask.... wazzat for?
> 
> WRT the "mean"... "suck it up buttercup"



Uuuh shoulda checked my profile, I've been through Basic. And for the record, I enjoy that I got to learn basic field craft and how to operate the service rifle before I do element and trade specific training.

WRT to the "mean" comment, please note the eye-rolling smiley and off-the-charts level of sarcasm.



Edit: Upon investigation my profile did NOT say that I've done IAP, my bad. But still, you shouldn't assume.


----------



## RangerRay

Well, I'm underwhelmed.  I expected something much better after last year's ads.


----------



## benny88

In hindsight, I realize I sounded pretty snooty up there when I said 'you shouldn't assume'. It was a casual remark thrown without real regard for my audience. This is a casual forum, true, but my comment doesn't really reflect the respect that I have for Geo and his experience.

   No harm intended.



Cheers,
Benny


----------



## geo

NP Benny.

CHIMO!


----------



## jerrythunder

I agree with RangerRay,

I just saw one of the newest ads, the one where the navy seizes a bunch of smuggled weapons and drugs and the army is rescuing a bunch of plane crash victims in the north. I am glad that many of the exciting positions in the military are being displayed, i wish that there would be more of a focus on our current active roles. A few shots of Afghanistan, maybe some troops doing parade or weapons drills at an armory for the reserves etc....


----------



## geo

huh?... thea army saving the people up north?
would say that it's more like SAR techs & rangers... but are part of someone's active imagination


----------



## medaid

geo said:
			
		

> huh?... thea army saving the people up north?
> would say that it's more like SAR techs & rangers... but are part of someone's active imagination



It was SAR Techs who made the initial jump in, and then Rangers came in on snowmobiles


----------



## geo

Ayup... no army types there (xcept for SAR techs who are remustered from other trades)


----------



## aesop081

:

I'm sure the poster was using "army" in the bigger sense of the term.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Does the CF do any online advertising? If so, I haven't seen any. Then again, I'm hardly in the target demographic so if they're using pop ups on gaming sites etc, I wouldn't see it.

Behavioural targeting

Not necessarily a bad idea
Jun 5th 2008
From The Economist print edition

A new way to target online advertisements could do a lot of good. But only if it is handled sensitively


IF YOU are reading this, it is a fair guess that you are interested in advertising, online commerce, internet regulation or online privacy. So it may make sense to display advertisements for computer hardware, software or services alongside the online version of this article. It may be, however, that you are reading this online after scanning a comparative review of flat-panel televisions on a technology blog, or visiting websites for villa rentals in Tuscany—in which case it might make more sense to show advertisements for televisions or villas. Targeting online advertisements at a web user, in short, should work better than targeting them at a web page. That, at least, is the idea behind “behavioural targeting”.

http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?source=hptextfeature&story_id=11496835


----------



## adaminc

I can vaguely remember an ad showing up on Amazon, I was surprised to say the least, I should've taken a screenshot.


----------



## Kyu

I know for a fact that the Canadian Forces are doing an online advertising campaign. 

I work for the company that does ad serving for Radio-Canada.ca (Only the french website, not CBC.ca), and we currently have a small campaign for the Department of National Defence. It ends this week, but a bigger campaign will start next monday.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Kyu said:
			
		

> I know for a fact that the Canadian Forces are doing an online advertising campaign.
> 
> I work for the company that does ad serving for Radio-Canada.ca (Only the french website, not CBC.ca), and we currently have a small campaign for the Department of National Defence. It ends this week, but a bigger campaign will start next monday.



Cool. Any chance of pointing me to it? I've never seen any CF online advertising..

And there's another opportunity we may be missing - advertising to our own members. If the CF could make these things available to all ranks online, then we could share it with our own networks. By the way, where's the CF Facebook page? Other big companies - with far more than 50,000 members, have them  ???


----------



## Kyu

> Cool. Any chance of pointing me to it? I've never seen any CF online advertising.



Unfortunately, I can't link directly to a page with one of these ads. The way the systems works, ads appear on the site (in this case radio-canada.ca) depending on several factors :


Each add have objectives. If an add is close to it's objective, it will show less often.
The ad priority. If there is an ad with higher priority, the higher priority ad will show more often.
The location of the user. We can target the ad to a specific region. Let's say, if we limit the ad to Canada, somebody in the US will see another ad or an empty ad.
If the ad is scheduled to appear on certain hours, it won't appear outside these hours.
If the ad is limited to certain pages, (like the sports section) you won't be able to see them.

And I can't link to the CF ad directly since the file itself is on another server that also collect stats. If our stats aren't the same as those on that server, I could be in trouble. 

If I see the ad, I'll try to save elsewhere and post it. But I don't think it'll happen, the campaign is almost finished and we don't have the files for the new one yet...  

The only thing I can see now is the _[insert swear word here]_ Bell beavers!  :blotto:


----------



## benny88

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> By the way, where's the CF Facebook page? Other big companies - with far more than 50,000 members, have them  ???




Ask and ye shall receive. http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2204677328


Although, it is filled with people with outrageously frustrating questions without the wherewithall to even find this site or the CF recruiting site. There's also much more specific ones (CF Pilots, CF ROTP, lots of others I'm sure)

Cheers


----------



## aesop081

benny88 said:
			
		

> Although, it is filled with people with outrageously frustrating questions without the wherewithall .........



Now where have i seen that before ?.......humm.......can't quite put my finger on it


----------



## benny88

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Now where have i seen that before ?.......humm.......can't quite put my finger on it



  Haha agreed, but if you can believe it, this is worse. Imagine army.ca with NO search function!!


----------



## daftandbarmy

benny88 said:
			
		

> Haha agreed, but if you can believe it, this is worse. Imagine army.ca with NO search function!!



Or tall blonde mods with black leather biker chaps  ;D


----------



## armyvern

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Or tall blonde mods with black leather biker chaps  ;D





Do we have any of those??

Bruce, the tall blond, doesn't own any chaps that I'm aware of.  

Mind you -- I think he *should* own some & I also think this thread is useless without pics.


----------



## Infanteer

Ok, the "Fight with the Canadian Forces" pair of ads weren't too bad - definitely was better than before.  But we still got a ways to go before we get to this level:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weudbL9tXCQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvgZU6UwoWY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUxYXX7pFp4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjjUfGyqkPE

These adds kick ass.  We need something like these that really send out the message that "Hell yeah, I wanna be a part of this team".


----------



## Gunnar

I love the Royal Marines one....as buddy wanders off into the bush, secure that he has demonstrated his manhood to everyone, a platoon of heavily armed soldiers follows him back with almost professional nonchalance.....if that doesn't send the message, what does?


----------



## daftandbarmy

Well, they certainly look great to us - guys who are already in a military organization. The problem they have in the UK is making them palatable to the potential recruit - who is decidedly non-military. I didn't see too many 'non-white' guys in there, for example. And the reality in the British infantry is quite different from that in many regiments (except the Guards, of course!)


----------



## Snakedoc

Agreed.  I personally think that the "fight with the Canadian Forces" ads we have right now cater appropriately to our Canadian population.  Though these British ads are 'cool' (especially the last one with the Royal Marines), I think that if they were shown in Canada as CF commercials, they may serve to drive potential recruits away if not scare their families into not wanting them to join.  I think the current CF commericals give the Canadian audience more of a sense of purpose for joining rather than the 'hoo-ray let's get em!" attitude which only lasts so long.


----------



## Infanteer

Don't know if I agree with that.  People join the military for different reasons, and an add campaign needs to target those reasons.  For young people who want adventure and to belong to a tight-knit team, I don't think you'd get a more effective advert then the ones posted above.  I don't think the "Fight with the CF" ads have gotten to that level.

Others look for benefits or the like - nothing wrong with that.  For those, you're better off with snazzy brochures at highschools and universities highlighting the competitive pay and benefits.

I would also venture that the Navy, the Air Force and the Army all have slightly different angles to take for ads.  They should all be given their own ads.


----------



## Pikache

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Don't know if I agree with that.  People join the military for different reasons, and an add campaign needs to target those reasons.  For young people who want adventure and to belong to a tight-knit team, I don't think you'd get a more effective advert then the ones posted above.  I don't think the "Fight with the CF" ads have gotten to that level.


Considering so many Nintendo generation kids are joining the CF, the question is do we want to attract people with the type of mentality we want 'ie, we are in a war' or people who are in it for 'a job'? We'd definitely get less numbers going with option 1, but I wonder what the retention rate will be?


----------



## Fusaki

> Don't know if I agree with that.  People join the military for different reasons, and an add campaign needs to target those reasons.  For young people who want adventure and to belong to a tight-knit team, I don't think you'd get a more effective advert then the ones posted above.  I don't think the "Fight with the CF" ads have gotten to that level.



A big +1.

At least in my own office space, the general consensus is that "CF recruiting adds make us look like a bunch of fucking pussies. Why can't we have bad ass recruiting adds like the Brits?"

Anyone remember the Royal Marine magazine add with the closeup photo of some poor recruit in the pushup position puking his guts out? The caption read "Royal Marines: 99% need not apply." THAT is the kind of hard ass unit 18 year olds want to be a part of. The "Strong and Proud CF" slogan looks like a flaccid penis next to that.


----------



## daftandbarmy

To heck with all that pushup and puking stuff ... I'm off to join the Ukranian Army:



Translation:

girl 1: would you take us for a ride on your BMW?
BMW-driver: even to the end of the world!
soldier: hey, i'd like to drown some vodka, girls!
girl 1: just a second!
girl 2: where do you live?
soldier: right here- daytime at work, and at night in the clubs!
girl 1: which work???
soldier: contract of course!
blonde girl: contract?? marriage contract or what?
girl 3: army contract, stupid!
BMW driver: hey, don't you wanna ride on my car?
girls: forget it, take yourself for a ride!
narrator: it's about time for new heroes! with contract based service in ukrainian armed forces!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH_E6YSQqTo&feature=related


----------



## BC Old Guy

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> The "Strong and Proud CF" slogan looks like a flaccid penis next to that.



You are out by one cycle of ads.  The current slogan is "Fight with the Canadian Forces"


----------



## dangerboy

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> To heck with all that pushup and puking stuff ... I'm off to join the Ukranian Army:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH_E6YSQqTo&feature=related



Nothing like a BTR 80 to pick up the chicks


----------



## bran

I would have to say that the Royal Marines is the best recruiting ad I've scene to date. 

_99.99% need not apply_...sounds pretty elite to me, seems like it would attract a lot of men to try and prove that slogan wrong.


----------



## BC Old Guy

ONT said:
			
		

> _99.99% need not apply_...sounds pretty elite to me, seems like it would attract a lot of men to try and prove that slogan wrong.



And what about the women we are also recruiting? And the techs we need in all 3 services?  Plus all the other occupations that need people that have attributes that don't closely match the SAS / Royal Marine Commando requirements?  I would agree with you more if all we were recruiting were for members of SOR and JTF2


----------



## armyvern

BC Old Guy said:
			
		

> And what about the women we are also recruiting? And the techs we need in all 3 services?  Plus all the other occupations that need people that have attributes that don't closely match the SAS / Royal Marine Commando requirements?  I would agree with you more if all we were recruiting were for members of SOR and JTF2



Well, in all fairness, lots of chicks shouldn't apply either.  :-\


----------



## HItorMiss

And this is where the stupid Amalgamation screws everything up...

You know what the Cbt Arms should be allowed to have their own damn recruiting vids..none of this tri service were all on the same team wussy C&*P!. And the guys who dream of being SOR or JTF2 are the exactly the guys we want to recruit in every trade. But hey lets aim for mediocre...

I have a quote that applies here in how we seem to do things "Aim low...Aim so low that when you fail no one notices"

CF 100% should apply and if you have 2 eyes a mostly working body and heart beat you will probably make it..... sound like our current standard eh  :


----------



## TacticalW

These ads are bloody well godly, I wish we had something like that up. At least something like this for the CSOR and JTF2 if not the Infantry, but unless things change I really doubt we're going to rack up the budget for commercials on this scale.


----------



## BC Old Guy

BulletMagnet:

If the CF was meeting its recruiting numbers, you might have an argument.  However, the CF has not been meeting its detailed, occupation specific targets for the occupations that require skills, education and aptitudes that are different from those required to be successful combat arms - such as Med Techsand  Naval Electronics Techs amongst others.

ArmyVern:
Why do you think lots of women should not apply?  What criteria should be used to decide which women should be enrolled?


----------



## medicineman

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> CF 100% should apply and if you have 2 eyes a mostly working body and heart beat you will probably make it..... sound like our current standard eh  :



Hey, I only reccomended one enrollee today out of 8 - and my junior scared the bejesus out of another so badly I didn't have to do the part 2  ;D.  

MM


----------



## HItorMiss

BCOG

That's not the point I was trying to make but meh no issues...in the end we will pander to the kinder gentler image of handing out blankets and water and we'll all be one big happy team and the shiny rainbow will shoot out our anuses....

Meanwhile our allies will recruit the people in their society who are drawn to a warrior culture both Cbt and support. and we'll have some 300lbs useless sack of crap....sounds about right to me.. GO CANADA!


----------



## Fusaki

More from the Royal Marines:

http://uk.sitestat.com/royalnavy/royalnavy/s?home.royalmarines.pdf.posters.cold.pdf&ns_type=pdf&ns_url=http://www.royal-marines.mod.uk/upload/pdf/cold.pdf

http://uk.sitestat.com/royalnavy/royalnavy/s?home.royalmarines.pdf.posters.calm.pdf&ns_type=pdf&ns_url=http://www.royal-marines.mod.uk/upload/pdf/calm.pdf

http://uk.sitestat.com/royalnavy/royalnavy/s?home.royalmarines.pdf.posters.brotherhood.pdf&ns_type=pdf&ns_url=http://www.royal-marines.mod.uk/upload/pdf/brotherhood.pdf

http://uk.sitestat.com/royalnavy/royalnavy/s?home.royalmarines.pdf.posters.heat.pdf&ns_type=pdf&ns_url=http://www.royal-marines.mod.uk/upload/pdf/heat.pdf

http://uk.sitestat.com/royalnavy/royalnavy/s?home.royalmarines.pdf.posters.fear.pdf&ns_type=pdf&ns_url=http://www.royal-marines.mod.uk/upload/pdf/fear.pdf

http://uk.sitestat.com/royalnavy/royalnavy/s?home.royalmarines.pdf.posters.hunger.pdf&ns_type=pdf&ns_url=http://www.royal-marines.mod.uk/upload/pdf/hunger.pdf

http://uk.sitestat.com/royalnavy/royalnavy/s?home.royalmarines.pdf.posters.laughs.pdf&ns_type=pdf&ns_url=http://www.royal-marines.mod.uk/upload/pdf/laughs.pdf

http://uk.sitestat.com/royalnavy/royalnavy/s?home.royalmarines.pdf.posters.pain.pdf&ns_type=pdf&ns_url=http://www.royal-marines.mod.uk/upload/pdf/pain.pdf

http://uk.sitestat.com/royalnavy/royalnavy/s?home.royalmarines.pdf.posters.state.pdf&ns_type=pdf&ns_url=http://www.royal-marines.mod.uk/upload/pdf/state-of-mind.pdf

http://uk.sitestat.com/royalnavy/royalnavy/s?home.royalmarines.pdf.posters.sea.pdf&ns_type=pdf&ns_url=http://www.royal-marines.mod.uk/upload/pdf/the-sea.pdf

http://uk.sitestat.com/royalnavy/royalnavy/s?home.royalmarines.pdf.posters.vertigo.pdf&ns_type=pdf&ns_url=http://www.royal-marines.mod.uk/upload/pdf/vertigo.pdf

http://uk.sitestat.com/royalnavy/royalnavy/s?home.royalmarines.pdf.posters.anger.pdf&ns_type=pdf&ns_url=http://www.royal-marines.mod.uk/upload/pdf/anger.pdf

Somehow I just don't think the last two would fly on this side of the pond...


----------



## Fusaki

> ArmyVern:
> Why do you think lots of women should not apply?  What criteria should be used to decide which women should be enrolled?



If I may, for Vern....

I believe that her comment was a bit of sarcasm in response to yours here:



> Quote from: ONT on Today at 04:06:29
> 99.99% need not apply...sounds pretty elite to me, seems like it would attract a lot of men to try and prove that slogan wrong.
> 
> And what about the women we are also recruiting?



When I read that the first thing in my mind was _"Well, I'm sure badass recruiting videos would appeal to women as well... and purple trades too for that matter"_


----------



## armyvern

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> If I may, for Vern....
> 
> I believe that her comment was a bit of sarcasm in response to yours here:
> 
> When I read that the first thing in my mind was _"Well, I'm sure badass recruiting videos would appeal to women as well... and purple trades too for that matter"_



I edited my post below to show the one that I was commenting on ...

I'm just saying that REALLY -- A LOT of women should REALLY not apply either. I do know a couple of badass chicks however.  8)


----------



## BC Old Guy

Actually, I agree with ArmyVern- lots of women should not apply.  The same goes for men.  However, lets look at some stats (those of you who know me won't be surprised - here we go to Stats Canada 2006 Census reports)

There are 1,032,435 women aged 20-24 years of age.  (I know - women, and men, enroll who are younger and older than this 5 year age cohort.  However, this group serves for this example)

Lets say that 2% were interested in the CF (the public opinion research indicates the numbers are higher, but I have problems with the way the research was done and interpreted).  That means that we could expect up to about 20,000 applications from this age group of women.   

About 1/3 of those that apply, and start the recruiting process,  are actually enrolled.  In this case, that would be 6,814 women.

Now, you and I know that isn't what has happened.  With current recruiting targets of over 8,000, the CF is currently enrolling about 1,000-1,200 women in any one year.

What this says to me is that there are many women who don't apply that should, as I think there are more than 1,200 "bad ass chicks" out there who would make good CF members.


----------



## daftandbarmy

OK, those Royal Marine ads were pretty cheesy. But at least they confirm alot of the abuse I used to throw their way! (OK, I still do)

Here's a good article about how to run an effective marketing plan that targets potential recruits. Like it or not, the US 'Army of One' campaign was very effective:

Applying Modern Marketing Concepts to Military Recruiting

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA383747&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf


----------



## Neill McKay

BC Old Guy said:
			
		

> However, the CF has not been meeting its detailed, occupation specific targets for the occupations that require skills, education and aptitudes that are different from those required to be successful combat arms - such as Med Techsand  Naval Electronics Techs amongst others.



A couple of people have touched on something that the advertising campaigns used in recruiting seem to have usually missed: the Forces can be sliced any number of ways, and each slice requires different kinds of people -- and will appeal to different people.

Some will be interested in joining because of the working environment, e.g. a desire to go to sea or work outdoors.  Others for the nature of the work, e.g. mechanical, electrical, communications, engineering, construction.  Others still for patriotic or personal development reasons.  Some for careerist reasons: free university or trades training, job security -- or just plain "job" if they have not been successful in the civilian workforce.  Some for social reasons: the sense of belonging, the close friendships, depending in your mates, etc.  Some want part-time work, some want to make a career of it, and some are only interested in a few years.  And I'm sure there are others.  All of these exist in various combinations.

Each of these motivations might tend to direct a person into a specific career path with variables in component, element, and occupation, anything from hard sea trades to combat arms to logistics to medical, to CIC to training development to legal...  That's an awfully tall order to fit into a few TV commercials and accompanying print ads, but that's what's been attempted for years.  It's like having a single advertising campaign for the Canadian civil service that tries to attract applicants to the whole spectrum of scientific, technical, clerical, operational, financial, and other occupations.  "Join the civil service!  be an engineer designing water distribution systems... or a secretary... or a Coast Guard officer... or a meteorologist... or an auditor... or a printing machine operator... or a mechanic..."


----------



## Teddy Ruxpin

Sadly, we have to remember how the CF's recruiting ads work.  They're not military ads, they're "Government of Canada" ads, and there's an enormous difference.  All advertising - if I have this right - must be approved by Treasury Board and must conform to the Government of the day's outlook and to "common look and feel" policies.

Thus the CF can suggest all the aggressive advertising it wants.  TB has the final say.  For years, we had ads where weapons didn't appear _at all_...ever wonder why?  Yeah...

The last batch were light years ahead of most previous ads (although there was a series of good ads in movie theatres a couple of years ago), but I'll wholeheartedly agree that there is a long way to go yet.


----------



## Infanteer

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> More from the Royal Marines:



Those ads were badass....



			
				N. McKay said:
			
		

> Each of these motivations might tend to direct a person into a specific career path with variables in component, element, and occupation, anything from hard sea trades to combat arms to logistics to medical, to CIC to training development to legal...  That's an awfully tall order to fit into a few TV commercials and accompanying print ads, but that's what's been attempted for years.



Obviously, the next logical step is to figure out what "motivational sub-groups" are most susceptible to having their interest piqued by print and tv ads vice other forms of recruiting.



			
				Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> Sadly, we have to remember how the CF's recruiting ads work.  They're not military ads, they're "Government of Canada" ads, and there's an enormous difference.  All advertising - if I have this right - must be approved by Treasury Board and must conform to the Government of the day's outlook and to "common look and feel" policies.



I have a hard time accepting the "well, the Government of Canada says...." answer these days - when in doubt, I fall back on the "Globemaster Principle" - if the CF can aquire 4 C-17s in less than 3 years, it can accomplish anything.... 8)


----------



## Infanteer

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> You know what the Cbt Arms should be allowed to have their own damn recruiting vids..none of this tri service were all on the same team wussy C&*P!. And the guys who dream of being SOR or JTF2 are the exactly the guys we want to recruit in every trade. But hey lets aim for mediocre...



Yup - why we aren't trying to recruit junior hockey teams wholesale - I don't know why.  Instead, we just remove entrance standards....



> I have a quote that applies here in how we seem to do things "Aim low...Aim so low that when you fail no one notices"



Beautiful....


----------



## HItorMiss

I would like to take credit for the quote but it's actualy from The Simpson (tm)  The episode where th Mafia help Marge sell pretzels.

I just think it's entirely applicable to how the CF seems to approach just about everything.


----------



## Lune

The vids were cool, but seemed a little too Hollywood to me. They might have well as been advertisements for some new modern combat video game. Do the guys who dream about CSOR and JTF2 really need advertisements like these to know that's what they want to aspire to? Will ads like those bring in a majority of soldiers with the correct mind state to become Quiet Professionals?


----------



## Infanteer

Lune said:
			
		

> The vids were cool, but seemed a little too Hollywood to me. They might have well as been advertisements for some new modern combat video game. Do the guys who dream about CSOR and JTF2 really need advertisements like these to know that's what they want to aspire to? Will ads like those bring in a majority of soldiers with the correct mind state to become Quiet Professionals?



We teach them to be quiet professionals - we need eager hard-chargers coming through the doors and yes, I think those ads are aimed at doing so.


----------



## Coldplay

Sorry for bumping this thread back up; I know it was three months ago but it is related to the thread I wanted to make before reading this. 

I was watching the CF videos on the Infantry and they make it seem like our soldiers are in Afghanistan handing out food, toys, water, money to people. What is this? They make it seem like this is a charity fund or something. Where's the highlights of our men kicking doors down, raiding taliban compounds and in intense firefights?  ;D


----------



## Blakey

Because that would give the impression that we are at war and that wouldn't be PC....


----------



## X-mo-1979

Don't show tanks blowing up grapehuts or killing people 4km away either.We wouldnt want soldiers joining to kill the enemy would we?


----------



## GAP

There is hardly a newscast that goes by without using shots of Panjiway in 06.......LAV III's moving along, etc.....and you want John Wayne too?


----------



## Shec

GAP said:
			
		

> .....and you want John Wayne too?



Why not, he did wear a green beret.


----------



## ARMY_101

Now here's another one with the elite hardcore image: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUcaM_0ztbM&feature=related


----------



## Mike Baker

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> Now here's another one with the elite hardcore image: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUcaM_0ztbM&feature=related


"99.99% need not apply"

I love that. ;D


----------



## daftandbarmy

The Beaver said:
			
		

> "99.99% need not apply"
> 
> I love that. ;D



And, of course, the reality is somewhat different. The Royal Marines have a very 'gradual' approach to ramping up training intensity, as well as a huge infrastructure to manage the 'back squads' and training injuries. Their failure rate is actually quite low. Good on 'em though for the hard core PR campaign. 

However, I'll keep quiet about the Tp Comds I used to see running alongside their heavily laden troops wearing nothing but a t-shirt and a terrier on a leash ...  :


----------



## petcali24

I am not sure with the ads themselves. They are rather dull , and don't really make an impression. Numbers might be up if they worked harder on getting the prior service types who are trying to re-enroll processed faster. hell 2-6 months to do a verification of prior service. Way to go if you want potential troops to get frustrated , and lose interest. Maybe they need more clerks in Ottawa to dig for files.


----------



## daftandbarmy

petcali24 said:
			
		

> Maybe they need more clerks in Ottawa to dig for files.



I don't know about recruiting, but we all need more good clerks! Radar O'Reilly, where are you?


----------



## danchapps

He's running around the mid-west looking for his pet goat. (On a side note I met him once, highlight of my past career)


----------



## IntlBr

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I don't know about recruiting, but we all need more good clerks! Radar O'Reilly, where are you?



Of course the Paras ad has them living for "the friday nights", eh daft?  ;D


----------



## daftandbarmy

Corps of Guides said:
			
		

> Of course the Paras ad has them living for "the friday nights", eh daft?  ;D



Absolutely. Friday nights is exactly why I went through all that torture. Actually, they should have used something like "If you can't get a date, get a nurse"


----------



## JimMorrison19

Infanteer said:
			
		

> We teach them to be quiet professionals - we need eager hard-chargers coming through the doors and yes, I think those ads are aimed at doing so.



Might help to get people through the door if the requirements were a little more slack in some areas, actually (vision) - that's one of my obstacles right now. Unless I'm missing it on their pages, the US and British forces are more lenient on vision requirements; I am pretty sure I had read that as long as you can correct to 20/20 without any actual conditions related to your vision you can qualify for infantry and whatnot. But hey, they're not us.


----------



## Blakey

This is the one that got me "hook, line and sinker".  ;D

From the '80's

"Ask us about you"


----------



## tyciol

I've been seeing this in commercials, and also on the DND recruiting website. I thought it was a really awesome slogan. This might sound a bit silly, but does anyone know if they have a PDF or something that we could print at home to paste on our door or something as a reminder of what we want to do?


----------



## R013

i have to say...that commercial has to be the biggest pile of dog s**t that has been released by the CF recruiting conglomerate.  Should read...fight the payclerk, fight the clothing stores, fight the DOAD's, fight the vetran affairs, fight CFRC, ...the list goes on and on...mark time a few years and the DND self eating machine will expose its ugly head.  On that note...and setting aside the admin nightmare....I have to say ...serving in the CF has to be one of the most enjoyable times ever in my life.  The people iv met, places iv been, and comradary unsurpassed.  NO LIFE LIKE IT


----------



## Teflon

R013 said:
			
		

> i have to say...that commercial has to be the biggest pile of dog s**t that has been released by the CF recruiting conglomerate.  Should read...fight the payclerk, fight the clothing stores, fight the DOAD's, fight the vetran affairs, fight CFRC, ...the list goes on and on...mark time a few years and the DND self eating machine will expose its ugly head.  On that note...and setting aside the admin nightmare....I have to say ...serving in the CF has to be one of the most enjoyable times ever in my life.  The people iv met, places iv been, and comradary unsurpassed.  NO LIFE LIKE IT



Fight the urge to to yell STFU


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Teflon said:
			
		

> Fight the urge to to yell STFU



Naaw, I think I'll let it win.................


----------



## helpup

You have to admit though the commercials have come a loooooong way.  Anyone else remember that jingle from the 80's 
"There is no life like it"  the words were part of a song and a part of the commercial was a 280 destroyer smiling faces and the like.  

Yah know having all those words in print posted here would be good for a chuckle.

And to the complainer who is gripping.  My guess would be a young Pte/ Cpl who has a great sense of entitlement and would never perscribe to taking a cup of STFU........ Or for that matter using a Capitol "I"   >


----------



## Smarts

Hey all, 

Coming from someone who is waiting on there BMQ date... I would have to say the newer CF ads did it for me. The commercials have been nice, but the ones that got me were in the movie theater's. They were longer, and gave you the extended version of all the commercials. Now I am on my way to BMQ and then after that Combat Engineer. The commercials were my first exposure and what got me hooked, after that followed tons of research and now a waiting process that is killing me  

Anyways, just thought I would throw my two cents out there. 

Regards, 

Smarts


----------



## Fishbone Jones

R013 said:
			
		

> i have to say...that commercial has to be the biggest pile of dog s**t that has been released by the CF recruiting conglomerate.  Should read...fight the payclerk, fight the clothing stores, fight the DOAD's, fight the vetran affairs, fight CFRC, ...the list goes on and on...mark time a few years and the DND self eating machine will expose its ugly head.  On that note...and setting aside the admin nightmare....I have to say ...serving in the CF has to be one of the most enjoyable times ever in my life.  The people iv met, places iv been, and comradary unsurpassed.  NO LIFE LIKE IT



Welcome to Milnet.ca. You should start by reading the guidelines, if you're not familiar with how we do things around here.

Three posts = three rants. How about reeling in your neck a bit and simmering down. See if you can get your point across without all the venom. It just ruins your view and opinion and people will stop paying attention.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## CorporalMajor

There's No Life Like it,

There's Nooooo Life Like it........    ;D  :cdnsalute:

 :-X



			
				Infanteer said:
			
		

> I would also venture that the Navy, the Air Force and the Army all have slightly different angles to take for ads.  They should all be given their own ads.



+1!!!!!!

As if the infantry, air-mechanics and sailors are all going to attract the same kind of guy.  Reality is, the CF is very diverse.  if you want combat troops, you want to attract people who thrive on adventure, excitement, speed, and challenges. If you want sailors, show the Navy life.... The CF is not a broad brush.  There are trades that are literally worlds apart from one another, so perhaps the intelligent thing to do would be to advertise for specific trades in demand. If you want MPs, make an ad that will promote the trade in a flattering light that is unique to other police forces.  If you want MOs, go for MOs.  

I'm a marketing student and I've seen all kinds of reads on selling and ads.  Marketing Magazine in Canada actually ranks the CF as one of the best Marketers in Canada.  I'd say the ad right now, as it stands is good and favorable to the Canadian public, and is better than the lame cheeseball ad we had before. 

As for the other ads... I like them much better. The RM one with the guy in the underwater tunnel is pretty intense. The USMC commercials really do justice to the pride its members have in their Corps. As for our ad-It does reinforce what the military as a whole is about. But it isn't specific enough to attract certain people, unlike the USMC or Royal Marines who pretty much do one thing, the CF do many things. The most it can do is make people curious, but that only will work if you want to attract people who have no idea what they want.


----------



## Michael OLeary

CorporalMajor said:
			
		

> As if the infantry, air-mechanics and sailors are all going to attract the same kind of guy.  Reality is, the CF is very diverse.  if you want combat troops, you want to attract people who thrive on adventure, excitement, speed, and challenges. If you want sailors, show the Navy life.... The CF is not a broad brush.  There are trades that are literally worlds apart from one another, so perhaps the intelligent thing to do would be to advertise for specific trades in demand. If you want MPs, make an ad that will promote the trade in a flattering light that is unique to other police forces.  If you want MOs, go for MOs.



And once there are "Army" ads, someone will say that combat arms, combat support arms and service support trade groups should each have their own ads because the Army_ "is not a broad brush"_ either.  We shouldn't be trying to attract the same candidates with the same message to infantry, and communicators, and supply techs.  Where does it stop?

Even in single trades you do not want an homogeneous body of clones.  Some may choose to perceive that the "ideal" infantry soldier is someone _"who thrive on adventure, excitement, speed, and challenges"_. But even in that single trade you need people who will, over their careers fill very different roles, ranging from that perceived "snake eating shooter" role to others requiring skills to be involved in equipment development or other technical positions, or staff positions to make sure the infantry corps and its various units run as they need to.

It's not a simple equation.

We certainly can't afford the production and market penetration costs and effort required to try and have ads for each and every trade.  As with many things, compromises have to be made somewhere.  There's certainly enough information available from official and unofficial sources for people to identify the Service and trade they feel suitable for.


----------



## CorporalMajor

Michael O`Leary said:
			
		

> And once there are "Army" ads, someone will say that combat arms, combat support arms and service support trade groups should each have their own ads because the Army_ "is not a broad brush"_ either.  We shouldn't be trying to attract the same candidates with the same message to infantry, and communicators, and supply techs.  Where does it stop?
> 
> Even in single trades you do not want an homogeneous body of clones.  Some may choose to perceive that the "ideal" infantry soldier is someone _"who thrive on adventure, excitement, speed, and challenges"_. But even in that single trade you need people who will, over their careers fill very different roles, ranging from that perceived "snake eating shooter" role to others requiring skills to be involved in equipment development or other technical positions, or staff positions to make sure the infantry corps and its various units run as they need to.
> 
> It's not a simple equation.
> 
> We certainly can't afford the production and market penetration costs and effort required to try and have ads for each and every trade.  As with many things, compromises have to be made somewhere.  There's certainly enough information available from official and unofficial sources for people to identify the Service and trade they feel suitable for.



Whoa now..I'm not saying the ads should split hairs that far... as good as the ad is, it is kind of vague. It makes you curious, for better or for worse.

In the Army you have Combat Arms, CS, and CSS.  All are different, and all have variety within them, but there's common ground to be found between and within the three.

For one, you know the saying all "soldiers are soldiers first". You can attract people to all Army trades with that idea, and it will be the right people. And it won't be misleading. 

All combat arms do among the most dangerous and challenging work in the military, and they are the backbone of the army...so right there you have four large career fields that are at the center of attention, and have more similarities to one another than differences.  You can easily portray an aspect of all four in one commercial, and that will give the individual watching a good impression that isn't misleading. 

I'm not saying, there should be an ad for snipers, EOD, para riggers, or every single niche in the CF.  But the Army, Navy and Air Force are three different beasts, with different trades and different ways of doing business. In turn, you will have people who generally joined a given trade or element for a particular reason not applicable to one of the three. Some like being in the field, others don't. Some want to go sea, I don't. Even if a whole unit of X shouldn't be clones, they're there for one reason - they'd rather be in their trade than another (hopefully). 

So should all three be represented differently..I think so. But you're right, it's wishful thinking, and it depends... trades can open and close pretty fast, and ads take time to make and can be expensive to budget. We don't know how much money we can spend on them, so I don't know whether or not we are truly making the best with what we have. At least it's better than "There's No Life Like It".


----------



## Fusaki

I think a good question is posed here:

Will the CF get a better return if it spends 3 Million on "Tri-Service" ads, or 1 million for an army Ad, 1 million for a Navy Ad, and 1 Million for an Airforce Ad?  Quality or quantity?


----------



## Michael OLeary

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> I think a good question is posed here:
> 
> Will the CF get a better return if it spends 3 Million on "Tri-Service" ads, or 1 million for an army Ad, 1 million for a Navy Ad, and 1 Million for an Airforce Ad?  Quality or quantity?



To continue the analogy, keep in mind that as you go from 1 to 3 with the same budget:

  - Each of the 3 ads is produced with only a third of the budget of the original.
  - Each ad gets to only one-third of the original audience (with only one-third of the distribution budget).

So, does one third of the original target audience then see three lower quality ads, or does the original audience see (on average) only one ad of the three for the same overall market distribution?


----------



## ghyslyn

We can always try showing this to the public:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLrYf4-Ik3k&feature=related


----------



## KingKikapu

ghyslyn said:
			
		

> We can always try showing this to the public:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLrYf4-Ik3k&feature=related


Please don't.  The current ads are wonderful, and lack the macho bravado of some of the US service ads.  

quiet professionalism just feels so much more impressive than the sweeping god bless america themes of our southern brothers.

Not to mention they are light years better than the old marketing campaign.


----------



## helpup

ghyslyn said:
			
		

> We can always try showing this to the public:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLrYf4-Ik3k&feature=related



I have been thinking about this and the statement do we use a large brush or a smaller detail one.  I think we need to refocus and modernize our outlook.  Keep a national campain for the Forces in whole, be it snazzy, jig-nostic, at least make it relevant.  But continue the presence at major events in a larger way.  Don't just set up a recruiter booth at job fairs or major events ( Grey and Lord Stanly Cups ) set up Reg and Res personnel at the universities ( if they allow us ) High Schools and Malls, large static displays with many trades there with the goal of just talking about life in the Forces. ( especially since the general public has no idea ) _Yes we do this already but I would argue we don't do it enough in the grass route form_.  The best advertising for the Army has and will always be word of mouth.  These days though our major bases are away from the population centers so we need more effort to reengage them. And finally get on You Tube in a better way. Don't just show the amateur vids or general contact vids that are on there now, get a professionally trade specific vid on there that is better quality then what they show in the recruiters office.  For Cbt Arms it can be task specific ( sniper, Diver, EOD, Infantry, Arty, Eng, Tanker) For other trades it can be showing that being a purple trade is not all office work or such ( those in that lane give me a hand here ).  End each add with a general information web site that answers questions and spells out specifics for each trade.  things like TOS, Pay, Time off, Medical, Education, Travel Assistance. 

So to sum up I think we need a 3 prong Add,  
-National Ad's for overall join the team,
-Pressing flesh adds that has Pte, Sgt, Officers with Equipment to many more events and Job fairs then what we currently do.
-You Tube adds with a revamped My job Rocks clips

All of these to a better laid out Website that will give info but also have  FAQ's on things they might not be thinking about

But this brings another problem.  As I have heard Hillier state before but am not up on the current numbers.  We have no real issue with recruiting at the present and we can recruit more. The trouble is getting those you recruited, trained and in the system before time removes the desire to join.


----------



## CorporalMajor

helpup said:
			
		

> For other trades it can be showing that being a purple trade is not all office work or such ( those in that lane give me a hand here ).


I'm an RMS Clerk, as purple as they get.  It IS all office work, that trade... but once in a while I get to go out into the field or practice on weapons. 

Some other trades such as MP, Med Tech, even Supply/TN get out into the field way more though.  I would say that aspect makes them unique to their civilian equivalents.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

CorporalMajor said:
			
		

> I'm an RMS Clerk, as purple as they get. * It IS all office work, that trade*... but once in a while I get to go out into the field or practice on weapons.
> 
> Some other trades such as MP, Med Tech, even Supply/TN get out into the field way more though.  I would say that aspect makes them unique to their civilian equivalents.



You really have a narrow view of the CF as a whole if you think clerks don't go to the field, and only work in offices.


----------



## helpup

even all office work would appeal to some who dont want to get into the gung ho aspect and are leary of the military as they think it is just about that.....


----------



## CorporalMajor

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> You really have a narrow view of the CF as a whole if you think clerks don't go to the field, and only work in offices.


I'm saying that the 836 trade itself is all office work. I am a clerk, so I think I would know. It isn't like infantry or sig op or what have you, where the field is your first or second home WITHIN THE TRADE ITSELF... Fieldcraft and the trade are almost entirely divorced from one another, and that is how it is. 

I don't have a narrow view. The trade is multifaceted and I always volunteer for the field in my res unit whenever the chance pops up, because my uniform has crossed swords on it, and because I like it. But while there are many clerks who take being soldiers or sailors first very seriously, there are some who may as well have never set foot outside of office.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

CorporalMajor said:
			
		

> I'm saying that the 836 trade itself is all office work. *I am a clerk, so I think I would know*. It isn't like infantry or sig op or what have you, where the field is your first or second home WITHIN THE TRADE ITSELF... Fieldcraft and the trade are almost entirely divorced from one another, and that is how it is.
> 
> I don't have a narrow view. The trade is multifaceted and I always volunteer for the field in my res unit whenever the chance pops up, because my uniform has crossed swords on it, and because I like it. But while there are many clerks who take being soldiers or sailors first very seriously, there are some who may as well have never set foot outside of office.



Actually, a quick view of your profile leads me to believe you do NOT know.  I can have the Clerk who spent a FTX or two as "Z49" confirm that your first paragraph is not true.   

You're entitled to your opinion, all I am saying is you will likely find other Clerks with some TI telling you that your opinion is misinformed at this point.

TGIF!!   ;D


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Back on the topic of the recruiting ads, I think the way they are going now is a step in the correct direction.  It seems (IMO) that the adds are working in their intended (IMO) way;  to generate enough of an interest in the CF to those who see them to have the viewer want some more info.  Viewer can then go to a CFRC, or in this day and age, they are more likely to hit the CF Recruiting website.  

The user can then poke around thru "army" "air force" and "navy jobs", and get all the goods on those trades, regardless of which one and Officer/NCM ones.  On top of that, the actual MOC videos are 500% improved (IMO) from the old ones.  Some that come to mind are the videos for AC Op, Armour Soldier and AES Op.  While *we* on the inside might scoof at them some, the job of the video is not to impress US, it is to generate interest from potential CF members.   

If these 2 components work well, our CFRC staffs are busy and CFLRS never has an empty platoon.  Which seems to be the case...


----------



## helpup

I still miss the corniness of the "there is no life like it song" That jingle has been running through my head now for the past couple of days and I cant get the whole words for it but have amusingly inserted my own interpretations.


----------



## CorporalMajor

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Actually, a quick view of your profile leads me to believe you do NOT know.  I can have the Clerk who spent a FTX or two as "Z49" confirm that your first paragraph is not true.
> 
> You're entitled to your opinion, all I am saying is you will likely find other Clerks with some TI telling you that your opinion is misinformed at this point.
> 
> TGIF!!   ;D


Now now. So I have 2.5 years in in some reserve unit.  Granted, I am not very experienced, and I have a LOT to learn.....but come on... I wasn't sworn in yesterday....  RMS Clerks are desk jockeys when we're not aboard ship or in the field...and some are even convinced they are "clerks first, soldiers second" (literally, this is what they say) because they get so little time in the field or behind a weapon relative to our fine freinds in the combat arms, or even many CS/CSS trades. 

I'm definetely NOT advocating that mindset, and I think being a soldier first is important, it will save my life or someone else's some day. Some have very different attitudes towards the occupation, I take the realistic one. In my mind, It is a CAREER, I'm a solider first, but I'm not as field-smart as the ordinary cbt arms troop, and that's how it is. 

We simply don't go in the field as often as others, That is the lesson of the story. 

Infantrymen, as a trade, are all about being in the field, or wherever the enemy is.  Sig ops and medics can wind up alongside them.  Veh Techs and Supply/TN go wherever they are needed.  RMS Clerks on ordinary ops in the field, from what I read, stick to patrols near the area and guard the base...... perhaps I am wrong... or do we ever lead foot patrols behind the wire?

Mabye one day I'll see.    >

The trade videos are pretty good.  Some of them are pretty cheesy, to the point where it can scare away potential recruits. I showed some to some freinds and they laughed. Others like the engineers or armd have very good videos that give excellent insight into the trade.

Cheers


----------



## danchapps

CorporalMajor said:
			
		

> RMS Clerks are desk jockeys when we're not aboard ship or in the field...



All depends on what BN you are with. Also being reserve has something to do with it as well. 1 SVC BN sure sends their clerks out to the field. They fire their weapons, run Dry and Live CLP's, and do everything that the infantry does, and that's even the AF Clerks. It's ALL about the individual unit. 


As for the new ads, they do in fact rock, they don't sugar coat what we do, but they don't tell all the little things we do either, something for the imagination, to draw people in to the CFRC's to ask lots of questions.


----------



## CorporalMajor

Chapeski said:
			
		

> All depends on what BN you are with. Also being reserve has something to do with it as well. 1 SVC BN sure sends their clerks out to the field. They fire their weapons, run Dry and Live CLP's, and do everything that the infantry does, and that's even the AF Clerks. It's ALL about the individual unit.


I've done all that too... just not as often as other trades.. that's all I'm getting at.

And yes it will depend on where you work.

Cheers.


----------



## aesop081

CorporalMajor said:
			
		

> I don't have a narrow view.



With " 2 years in, one year actualy in" you have a very narrow field of view indeed. Its not your fault. With only a short amount of service time and being in the reserves, you most likley have not been exposed to the full range of employment of your MOC and the working of the wider CF.


----------



## canadian_moose

Today I was watching TV when a CF commercial came on and it was the fight fear, fight chaos brand anyway it was the condensed version of it and it just showed a ship at sea and SAR Techs jumping out of a plane to save a crashed plane in the middle of the Arctic, and all I thought was COME ON, at least some of the full version commercials had some sort of army related theme even if it was handing out blankets. What they need are commercials that display camaraderie, patriotism and warrior ethos. That's the reason most people join the combat arms at least, is to go overseas and fight and being a brother in arm. No one joins to be a peacekeeper or a humanitarian, we join to be soldiers, but I guess just like the CF ads and most people in the CF they forget the motto "Soldiers First". And the CF should implement a 99.99% need not apply so it would free up PAT platoon from the weak, lame and lazy.


----------



## jp86

canadian_moose said:
			
		

> Today I was watching TV when a CF commercial came on and it was the fight fear, fight chaos brand anyway it was the condensed version of it and it just showed a ship at sea and SAR Techs jumping out of a plane to save a crashed plane in the middle of the Arctic, and all I thought was COME ON, at least some of the full version commercials had some sort of army related theme even if it was handing out blankets.



I think the SAR ads are a good way of reminding people that there's more to the CF than Afghanistan.  And I disagree with you when you suggest that they're trying to appeal to people who aren't really cut out to be soliders; I find the tone of the ads conveys grittiness and professionalism.


----------



## KingKikapu

jp86 said:
			
		

> And I disagree with you when you suggest that they're trying to appeal to people who aren't really cut out to be soliders; I find the tone of the ads conveys grittiness and professionalism.


Agreed.  They also have a certain air to them that say to me; 'check your ego at the door'.  

Some people should heed that advice.


----------



## Snakedoc

canadian_moose said:
			
		

> it was the condensed version of it and it just showed a ship at sea and SAR Techs jumping out of a plane to save a crashed plane in the middle of the Arctic, and all I thought was COME ON, at least some of the full version commercials had some sort of army related theme even if it was handing out blankets.



Last I checked the CF wasn't only made up of the army....


----------



## aesop081

canadian_moose said:
			
		

> That's the reason most people join the combat arms at least, is to go overseas and fight and being a brother in arm. No one joins to be a peacekeeper or a humanitarian, we join to be soldiers, but I guess just like the CF ads and most people in the CF they forget the motto "Soldiers First".



Some people are joining to be SAR techs, some people are joining with the desire to fly Cormorants...........so  we showed them :



> and SAR Techs jumping out of a plane to save a crashed plane in the middle of the Arctic,



Theres a big CF outside of your battalion and the personel shortages are there too.


----------



## CorporalMajor

canadian_moose said:
			
		

> Today I was watching TV when a CF commercial came on and it was the fight fear, fight chaos brand anyway it was the condensed version of it and it just showed a ship at sea and SAR Techs jumping out of a plane to save a crashed plane in the middle of the Arctic, and all I thought was COME ON, at least some of the full version commercials had some sort of army related theme even if it was handing out blankets. What they need are commercials that display camaraderie, patriotism and warrior ethos. That's the reason most people join the combat arms at least, is to go overseas and fight and being a brother in arm. No one joins to be a peacekeeper or a humanitarian, we join to be soldiers, but I guess just like the CF ads and most people in the CF they forget the motto "Soldiers First". And the CF should implement a 99.99% need not apply so it would free up PAT platoon from the weak, lame and lazy.


The full commercial has what appears to be infantrymen doing their thing.  As for the rest, Naval crew are SAILORS, and SAR Techs are AIRMEN.  That is why they aren't "soldier first" - because they aren't in the army!  Some people want to fly or repair aircraft instead, or live at sea, and those people are not trained as soldiers - so what do you expect? 

Although I do agree there could be use for "Warrior Ethos" outside the combat arms, not everyone joins for those reasons. My friend joined as a medic to save lives, not just to fight people. The commercial is meant to portray the entire CF in its broad purpose, for better and for worse. 

As for Pat PL, that has more to do with these kinds of individuals being allowed into the system to begin with, or perhaps it is BMQ failing to place them in the right mindset or otherwise prepare them. But I digress....

Cheers


----------



## stealthylizard

But aren't we all soldiers first regardless of trade and element?


----------



## EuroCanuck

canadian_moose said:
			
		

> That's the reason most people join the combat arms at least, is to go overseas and fight and being a brother in arm. No one joins to be a peacekeeper or a humanitarian, we join to be soldiers...



I did NOT join with the intention to go overseas and shoot people (although I did apply for Infantry as second choice). I joined for a number of other reasons, but mainly to help people - not fight them.
Anyways, on topic, I think our commercials are OK. I think the dark atmosphere they seem to have is too much though. People like to live happy and cheerful lives : )
As for the British Royal Marines commercial, with the guy underwater, I think it would scare away a lot of potential recruits (and parents!), though the RM's are an elite force right? That I could understand. But for the regular CF, I don't think it would be the way to go - showing the rigours of training.
I LOVE this USMC one: http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=UwY67LYzH7Q, it fills the recruitee' with a sense of pride, fellowship, and professionalism. And it's bright and cheerful!


----------



## ltmaverick25

EuroCanuck said:
			
		

> I did NOT join with the intention to go overseas and shoot people (although I did apply for Infantry as second choice). I joined for a number of other reasons, but mainly to help people - not fight them.
> Anyways, on topic, I think our commercials are OK. I think the dark atmosphere they seem to have is too much though. People like to live happy and cheerful lives : )
> As for the British Royal Marines commercial, with the guy underwater, I think it would scare away a lot of potential recruits (and parents!), though the RM's are an elite force right? That I could understand. But for the regular CF, I don't think it would be the way to go - showing the rigours of training.
> I LOVE this USMC one: http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=UwY67LYzH7Q, it fills the recruitee' with a sense of pride, fellowship, and professionalism. And it's bright and cheerful!



I think it is noble that you want to help people, but I think you and the rest of Canadian society needs to understand is that a military's primary function is to fight wars.  In so doing, you are going to have to shoot and kill people.  Its not a fun thought, and it does not make me feel very warm and fuzzy inside, but it is the job that you, me and everyone else here volunteered for.  I think our recruiting adds need to have that sense of reality to them.  In my view the adds need to serve 2 purposes.  The first to attract people to join the CF, the second, to ensure they have a realistic appraisal as to what they are getting themselves into.

Will that scare away Canadians?  Absolutely.

While I agree that the CF needs to change and adapt along with society, there has to be a line drawn somewhere.  We need to maintain a war fighting capability and our new recruits need to be prepared to accept that burden.


----------



## helpup

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> While I agree that the CF needs to change and adapt along with society, there has to be a line drawn somewhere.  We need to maintain a war fighting capability and our new recruits need to be prepared to accept that burden.



I don't see the line being drawn there. The big reason is for the past 25 + years that I can actively recall commercials and was familiar with what our capability as a military was. We have had a changing tune for recruitment in all that time and more likely even longer.  From Campy commercials, to the Hey the army is just like any business but great benefits.  The point being despite the level of recruiting we have always managed to take those who joined for what ever reason. Put them into the "Green Machine" ( including Air and Navy). And come up with a capable force that has been acknowledged by our allies as being a well trained force.


----------



## Towards_the_gap

EuroCanuck said:
			
		

> I did NOT join with the intention to go overseas and shoot people (although I did apply for Infantry as second choice). I joined for a number of other reasons, but mainly to help people - not fight them.



Good on ya, but as previously stated, we are in the business of applied violence. 



> I think it would scare away a lot of potential recruits (and parents!),



If there are people afraid of arduous training, would we want them in the military in the first place? Even worse if their parents were afraid for them?


----------



## Cpt. Andersen

Here's a JTF-2 recruitment booklet from their website...

http://www.jtf2.forces.gc.ca/rec/docs/brochure-eng.pdf

I also thought this Navy SEALs commercial was brilliant:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jmta7GwXCpo


----------



## Fusaki

> I LOVE this USMC one: http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=UwY67LYzH7Q, it fills the recruitee' with a sense of pride, fellowship, and professionalism. And it's bright and cheerful!



I like this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFeHoMhuz7A&feature=related

Because it emphasizes that the purpose of the USMC is to go to war, and everything else is in support of that cause.


----------



## Sub_Guy

stealthylizard said:
			
		

> But aren't we all soldiers first regardless of trade and element?


No


----------



## 4Feathers

stealthylizard said:
			
		

> But aren't we all soldiers first regardless of trade and element?


I would say yes, but at a basic level, and if you think otherwise then perhaps you have chosen the wrong occupation.


----------



## PuckChaser

Snakedoc said:
			
		

> Last I checked the CF wasn't only made up of the army....



On the same token, the CF isn't only recruiting SAR Techs, Naval Officers and boarding parties which is all I see in the current commericials.


----------



## stealthylizard

Dolphin Hunter, 

We are all taught basic marksmanship, fieldcraft, section attack drills, etc (perhaps with the exception of chaplains and MedO's)  in BMQ/BMOQ.  Wouldn't that indicate we are all soldiers first before anything else?


----------



## a78jumper

helpup said:
			
		

> The big reason is for the past 25 + years that I can actively recall commercials and was familiar with what our capability as a military was. We have had a changing tune for recruitment in all that time and more likely even longer.  From Campy commercials, to the Hey the army is just like any business but great benefits.



Remember "Ask us about you" and "There's no life like it". Horrible campaigns enough to make one puke. Remember the one where the guy in CF greens got off a business jet carrying a briefcase, like most people in the CF went to work that way. The current ones at least do portray in most cases uniquely military activities.


----------



## a78jumper

stealthylizard said:
			
		

> Dolphin Hunter,
> 
> We are all taught basic marksmanship, fieldcraft, section attack drills, etc (perhaps with the exception of chaplains and MedO's)  in BMQ/BMOQ.  Wouldn't that indicate we are all soldiers first before anything else?



Prolly because people flying around in airplanes and floating in a tin can don't  and can't hold ground-boots on a specific grid square do, regardless of trade.


----------



## stealthylizard

Wasn't trying o refer to them being able to hold ground.  But say they are in KAF, any one of them can be tasked to security, which is a basic soldiering skill.  Everyone in the military learns those skills in BMQ for a particular reason.  Sorry, this is getting off topic.


----------



## Sub_Guy

stealthylizard said:
			
		

> Dolphin Hunter,
> 
> We are all taught basic marksmanship, fieldcraft, section attack drills, etc (perhaps with the exception of chaplains and MedO's)  in BMQ/BMOQ.  Wouldn't that indicate we are all soldiers first before anything else?


So what?  I have been taught how to use the C7. (trust me you don't want me providing covering fire)
  
I have never been taught how to do section attack drills, as for fieldcraft?   On my BMQ (1996) we spent one week camping, we went to the range, we did some map work, that's it!    

So if it comes to the point where I am leading a section attack, then we are in a world of hurt.



			
				PuckChaser said:
			
		

> On the same token, the CF isn't only recruiting SAR Techs, Naval Officers and boarding parties which is all I see in the current commericials.


From the brief we were given the other day (thrilling afternoon), the Navy is having huge problems attracting new applicants, while the Air Force is hurting, its not as bad as the Navy.  It should be no surprise that the Army is having no problems getting people into the recruiting centers. 

So why would they show commercials of army guys running around doing stuff?  Plus as it has been stated already that the commercials also remind "Joe Public" that there is more to the CF than Afghanistan.


----------



## aesop081

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> On the same token, the CF isn't only recruiting SAR Techs, Naval Officers and boarding parties which is all I see in the current commericials.



Maybe you need to watch more TV or something. I have seen army medics do their thing, infantrymen clearing rooms, TAC Hel doing whatever tac hel does.......


----------



## Lil_T

petcali24 said:
			
		

> Maybe they need more clerks in Ottawa to dig for files.



I'll do it!!!  Just have to get in first ;D


----------



## helpup

a78jumper said:
			
		

> Remember "Ask us about you" and "There's no life like it". Horrible campaigns enough to make one puke. Remember the one where the guy in CF greens got off a business jet carrying a briefcase, like most people in the CF went to work that way. The current ones at least do portray in most cases uniquely military activities.



Oh I remember them, and in retrospect they appealed to the public's wants back in the Day.  Travel just like a business man. Since the Villiage people would of been too expensive to produce a jingle for us we got " there is no life like it"  Trouble is I still say that tune is catchy enough that parts of the jingle float through my head occasionally like floats-am does the Halifax harbour. 

Point being though is even with those commercials we as a army did take all sorts in who responded to them and turned out a pretty good product.  Mind you the Trg system was differant then but that would be a whole other topic.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

4Feathers said:
			
		

> I would say yes, but at a basic level, and if you think otherwise then perhaps you have chosen the wrong occupation.



Please explain to me how LS Bloggins, who is a NES Op on a CPF, is a "soldier first".   :


----------



## Fusaki

> Please explain to me how LS Bloggins, who is a NES Op on a CPF, is a "soldier first".   Roll Eyes



LS Bloggins might not be a soldier first. But what about LS Smith, who's a medic attached to an inf rifle coy?

Are some in the Navy soldiers first, and others sailors first? Are purple trades soldiers first, but other navy trades not?  I personally think that the CF has been able to handle these kinds of situations fairly well and I have no complaints about the Navy and AF pers I've worked with.  Just playing devil's advocate here...


----------



## Sub_Guy

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> LS Bloggins might not be a soldier first. But what about LS Smith, who's a medic attached to an inf rifle coy?
> 
> Are some in the Navy soldiers first, and others sailors first? Are purple trades soldiers first, but other navy trades not?  I personally think that the CF has been able to handle these kinds of situations fairly well and I have no complaints about the Navy and AF pers I've worked with.  Just playing devil's advocate here...



This almost belongs in that "dumbest thing thread".  
If LS Bloggins is working aboard HMCS Vancouver, then he is a sailor first (yes even as a purple trade).  
If LS Bloggins is working aboard a CC150, or in the field, obviously he is not a sailor first. 

So the Hull Tech standing guard at KAF, is just that a Hull Tech standing guard, so I guess he would be a soldier first.  I am also willing to bet if you went up to him and reminded him of that fact, he would probably reply with a "who f*cking cares?".  He is not thinking of his duties as a member of a ships company, he is focused on his task at hand and being a sailor first would not be his current task.  It depends on where you are working and what you are doing.  

P


----------



## Prototype

Off topic, but not really since the forum is originally about recruiting ads... hard lols to be had, guaranteed...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rAHrHd2lcw

If the link doesn't work, look in YouTube for VDV. And while you're at it look for the Ukrainian Army recruiting commercial. They'll show you that your BTR-60 is good for picking up chicks.

Be glad that the CF is not using music videos to attract recruits.

Back in 1999 there was this CF ad on TV that showed this young engineer recruit navigating an obstacle course while this upbeat pop music played in the background. Anyone got a link? I haven't thrown up yet today.

Also, around the same time there was an army reserve ad that showed this guy running from his house with a duffle bag, jumping in his jeep and speeding away (one can only assume that he was going directly from his house to the nearest conflict zone). Links plz.


----------



## George Wallace

Prototype said:
			
		

> Off topic, but not really since the forum is originally about recruiting ads... hard lols to be had, guaranteed...



 ;D

Old news.  Been posted before.


----------



## CorporalMajor

stealthylizard said:
			
		

> Dolphin Hunter,
> 
> We are all taught basic marksmanship, fieldcraft, section attack drills, etc (perhaps with the exception of chaplains and MedO's)  in BMQ/BMOQ.  Wouldn't that indicate we are all soldiers first before anything else?


I'm with doplhinhunter.  Every branch of any military is taught weaponry and navigation, and I'm sure most lean basic fieldcraft. I didn't know they taught section attacks on BMQ (but they should).

Nonetheless. If you're in the Navy, you are a Sailor. Navy SEALs can fight on land and are trained as paratroopers, but are they soldiers? No.. Are the USAF Combat Controllers "soldiers", no, they are *Airmen* because they work for the air force.. Are Clearance Divers soldiers, No... even though they could put up a fight, and have worked in Afg as ordnance disposal. 

We in the CF are all expected to survive in the field should the situation present itself, infantryman, pilot or Navy Tech alike.  That is elementary to all of us, so in my mind it doesn't ake you a "soldier first." In all likelihood a hard air or hard navy trade won't go in the bush as often as hard army trades. And then the Army, Navy and AF are different beasts, with different customs......


----------



## stealthylizard

Wasn't saying that everyone would be infanteer qualified, or be able to lead a section in a firefight (we learned section attacks during BMQ in 2008).  But we are all expected to be able to function with a weapon (don't need to be a sniper, just hit the target at least once) in our hands, regardless of trade/element.


----------



## hugh19

I am a LS NESOP though I am a 280 guy. I prefer to fire long range missiles.  I am NOT a soldier first. I am a sailor. I did NOT join the army, I joined the NAVY. We may not be allowed to be royal any more but I am proud to be a sailor. It is a different world to the air force or to the army. We are not soldiers first. That is a army saying. We are sailors first. being able to handle a weapon properly does not make one a soldier just a trained sailor.


----------



## ltmaverick25

sledge said:
			
		

> I am a LS NESOP though I am a 280 guy. I prefer to fire long range missiles.  I am NOT a soldier first. I am a sailor. I did NOT join the army, I joined the NAVY. We may not be allowed to be royal any more but I am proud to be a sailor. It is a different world to the air force or to the army. We are not soldiers first. That is a army saying. We are sailors first. being able to handle a weapon properly does not make one a soldier just a trained sailor.



Well said.  I was in the army, now the navy and they are two totally different worlds.  We are all sailors first, and being a sailor means weapons handling, security sentry, watch ect...  So in many respects sailors have some comonalities with the basic soldier, but they are still very much sailors.

I think the point is, the CF in my view is an employer that has a job for just about anyone, provided they are motivated enough and are of decent character of course.  You can be a hull teach, a infantryman, a pilot, a doctor, anything at all.  The problem then becomes how do you design a recruiting campaign to accomodate such a dynamic and unique employer.  We are diversified, we are different, with many different skills and cultures but we are still all warriors none the less.  In my opinion recruiting would be best served by element specific advertizing, but you know Canada, we dont like to spend money on such valuable things as defence...

But I digress,

Perhaps we can all agree we are warriors first?


----------



## helpup

Agreed on the Soldier, Sailor, and even Airman.  In my experience even for the Army.  They non Cbt Arms trades are taught basic Wpns Handling drills, have to fire a PWT, get a basic Field Ex done in basic ( and I do mean basic it in no way or shape prepares you to be a infanteer or we wouldn't have a intense BSL, SQ or what ever you want to call it.)  If non Cbt Arms are posted to a Field unit they will get some Exercise time and Trg. But even that is not guaranteed to be of any substantial level.  It was brought up about sure they can man the gate.  ( oversees ) Since they had to go through TMST Trg and the other check in the boxes.  But there are people over there despite having all that Trg can have and will let that knowledge go in one ear and out the other.  They also tend to lack the experience to apply that knowledge in a tense situation. This is something I have seen more then one occasion. You can say that it is a leadership problem in not ensuring they are not trained. But like all skills you are going to have skills fade if you don't use it and if you were never fully trained in it then that fade is exponentially increased. 

Anyhow I agree there are allot of trades in the Military that can please pretty well anyone. They are not all at the sharp end. Every sword will have a part of the blade not meant to cause damage but to support the sharp/ blunt edges that do.


----------



## aesop081

helpup said:
			
		

> Every sword will have a part of the blade not meant to cause damage but to support the sharp/ blunt edges that do.



And of course, not every weapon is a sword. Some trades in the CF are not combat arms but are definately on the pointy end of things. A sailor who operates the 57mm gus on a frigate during an engagement at sea is definately at the combat end of things. The same can be said of a F-18 pilot, an Aurora crewmember, etc...


----------



## George Wallace

Perhaps we should suggest to the ADMEN that they come up with a new phrase line for the CDS on down to use.  Say we instead refer to all members of the CF as being "WARRIORS First, Tradesmen Second".  Would that make you all happy?


----------



## helpup

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> And of course, not every weapon is a sword. Some trades in the CF are not combat arms but are definitely on the pointy end of things. A sailor who operates the 57mm gus on a frigate during an engagement at sea is definately at the combat end of things. The same can be said of a F-18 pilot, an Aurora crewmember, etc...



<shaking my head>  It was a analogy that was meant to incorporate that the CF as a whole will have sharp edges and other parts that are used to cause damage ( soldier sailor airman ) however for everyone who has a role that involves causing damage to a enemy there is the force behind it that allows those instrument of destruction to carry out the task.  A sword with out the metal behind the edge or the hilt and handle is but a papercutting instrument. 

I did use the term Cbt Arms in my post but I did not mean to slight anyone in any part of the forces who are involved in causing damage to the En.


----------



## CorporalMajor

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Perhaps we should suggest to the ADMEN that they come up with a new phrase line for the CDS on down to use.  Say we instead refer to all members of the CF as being "WARRIORS First, Tradesmen Second".  Would that make you all happy?


But what about chaplains!!!! They're non-combatants under the Geneva Convention!!!!

 ;D

Really though, that works well.  Because no matter whether your undershirt is black, blue or green, you may very well have to get your hands dirty fighting.. 



> They are not all at the sharp end. Every sword will have a part of the blade not meant to cause damage but to support the sharp/ blunt edges that do.


excellent analogy


----------



## aesop081

CorporalMajor said:
			
		

> Because no matter whether your undershirt is black, blue or green, you may very well have to get your hands dirty fighting..



Some people out there , unfortunately, have a very narrow definition of what "fighting" is.


----------



## Steve 1 RNFLDR

I still can't understand how the "Leaping Leopard" has never made it into a recruiting advert.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=YLb5MiP3tcM

Or ball-hockey, for that matter.


----------



## ltmaverick25

helpup said:
			
		

> <shaking my head>
> 
> I did use the term Cbt Arms in my post but I did not mean to slight anyone in any part of the forces who are involved in causing damage to the En.



If someone has somehow found it within themselves to be offended over any of the comments or suggestions being tossed out here then they need to get overthemselves.  I know the rest of society in Canada likes to become offended for any little thing, but that doesnt mean we all have to be a bunch of fairies about it!

Everyones on the same team, we all want more effective and cooler ads!


----------



## 4Feathers

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> And this is where the stupid Amalgamation screws everything up...
> 
> You know what the Cbt Arms should be allowed to have their own damn recruiting vids..none of this tri service were all on the same team wussy C&*P!. And the guys who dream of being SOR or JTF2 are the exactly the guys we want to recruit in every trade. But hey lets aim for mediocre...
> 
> I have a quote that applies here in how we seem to do things "Aim low...Aim so low that when you fail no one notices"
> 
> CF 100% should apply and if you have 2 eyes a mostly working body and heart beat you will probably make it..... sound like our current standard eh  :


I could not disagree more, but then you know what they say about opinions. These ads are done in a very scientific manner, and are meant to attract from across a wide spectrum. Sure it would be nice to target just combat arms, but then what about the other 85 of the force. I hear you, but the ad budget is only so big and like most other things, needs to get the most bang for the buck. In the meantime, everyone wearing a uniform is a recruiter, and are  the best form of advertising we can get. If you are interested in getting involved then go to forces.ca and sign up under recruiter for a day program.


----------



## Journeyman

4Feathers said:
			
		

> *....everyone wearing a uniform is a recruiter, and are the best form of advertising we can get.*


:rofl:

As anyone who knows him will attest, "BulletMagnet" is NOT the best form of advertising we can get!!  ;D


----------



## HItorMiss

Here I was minding my own buisness......   >


There was a time when the CF disagreed with you JM..... ;D

But I agree I should not be used as an example of anything, save of course the first rule of TCCC "Don't become a casualty yourself!"

On the topic What I believe is that we should be recruiting in a more aggressive manner as in our ad's should be less happy friendly save people and hand out blankets at a fire and more storming the ship at sea for a drug bust....

The fact that I have had the conversation of "I'm a support trade I don't do that" is the prime example of where we are failing in both our recruiting and our training systems.


----------



## 4Feathers

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> Here I was minding my own buisness......   >
> 
> 
> 
> On the topic What I believe is that we should be recruiting in a more aggressive manner as in our ad's should be less happy friendly save people and hand out blankets at a fire and more storming the ship at sea for a drug bust....
> 
> The fact that I have had the conversation of "I'm a support trade I don't do that" is the prime example of where we are failing in both our recruiting and our training systems.


It was only a suggestion. We get plenty of pointy end guys in the "recruiter for a day" program that represent in professional fashion. If it's not your bag then no worries, but then if your not part of the solution then I would suggest that you not diss the guys that are trying to make a difference. I have been both an operator and a support guy, and I would have to say they both play critical roles in the success of any operation. Best of luck to you.


----------



## SevenSixTwo

Has anyone seen the new CF ad?

It makes the CF look like it's a damn video game. 

Ridiculous, it doesn't look like it's online anywhere yet.


----------



## aesop081

SevenSixTwo said:
			
		

> Has anyone seen the new CF ad?
> 
> It makes the CF look like it's a damn video game.



I just saw the one for AEC, i dont know if thats the one you saw.

If it is, i have to ask, what else was it supposed to look like ?


----------



## SevenSixTwo

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I just saw the one for AEC, i dont know if thats the one you saw.
> 
> If it is, i have to ask, what else was it supposed to look like ?



Basically, it looks like your in some sort of video game and then it advances to a ridiculously easy question and asks "Do you have what it takes to be in the Canadian Forces? Try this skill testing question: What is 12 x 8? Is it A, B, C or D and then there's a 30 second timer for you to think about what 12 x 8 is and then it says text your answer to "#####". Correct answers will be contacted.

I can't believe they did this to be honest it's just such a shock. We went from our old military commercials where it looks like it's summer camp and everyone flies CF-18s and does super cool stuff 24/7

(AKA:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K69jwRkm04 )


To our 2008 more serious commercials to the CF being something that is serious, should be taken seriously and isn't as high tempo as the previous commercial.

(AKA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vnzz6WznsE8 )


To the current 2011 commercial which, returns us to same origins as the original commercial except this time worse!



I felt like it made the CF look like total idiots. Seriously 12 x 8? PEOPLE WHO GET THAT RIGHT WILL BE CONTACTED?!



Those of you going to the movies might see it but it looks like it still isn't online anywhere.


----------



## blacktriangle

I just got back from seeing the Adjustment Bureau and they played one of these stupid puzzle recruiting commercials first...

It had some geometric cutout problem to solve a la the CFAT. It was lame and everyone around us kind of thought it was stupid. About 5 minutes later they played the older one with the SAR Techs rescuing people and the Navy/Air Force busting traffickers...much better.


----------



## HavokFour

Spectrum said:
			
		

> I just got back from seeing the Adjustment Bureau and they played one of these stupid puzzle recruiting commercials first...



I've never seen such a commercial before, I feel kind of left out.


----------



## PMedMoe

My sister mentioned seeing one last time she was at the movies.  Trying to reach out to the "current" generation?


----------



## chrisf

Peace said:
			
		

> And dont blame me if you get the word "fight" BURNED into your sub concious :skull:



Before anyone says anything, I know I'm replying to a post made almost 6 years ago...

But that "fight" ad campaign ended up producing some of the better recruiting ads we've had in the last say, 20 years?


----------



## CDNGamma

Andrew Brunton said:
			
		

> I think recruiting campaigns which try and gloss over the reality of an infantrymen‘s job
> can only lead to recruits unwilling to do their real job. The role of infantry is to close with
> and destroy the enemy. Not to have fun and exciting job oppurtunities in the Canadian
> Forces as a recent advertisment on TV stated. I plan to join the CF as an infantrymen
> and I know the reality of the situation. In combat you will be called upon to fight, and
> very possibly be killed. If this reality isn‘t mentioned at all in recruiting, and no mention is
> given to personal sacrifice and immense personal and phsycial challenge the wrong people
> will join. I‘m prepared to live in horrible conditions on little sleep for weeks in real field
> operations. But is everyone else planning on joining prepared for that? If basic becomes
> weaker and training overall becomes more lax our forces will lose any resemblance of a
> fighting edge. As a small military force we should be making up for our smaller numbers
> by putting out better soldiers from our training programs. A smaller number of dedicated and focused soldiers can equal the effeciency of a larger number of soft and unenchanted
> soldiers. I hope the standards remain high, and the recruitment campaigns remain true
> to reality so when I join I‘ll be bombarded with intense training, but have fellow trainees
> who I can rely on. To that goal training can turn out newer soldiers more experienced
> ones can count on to carry their load and perform their role in operations




You have NOOOOOO idea what you are talking about. I am in the Infantry... yes BMQ and DP1 seem hard at the time but they arent intense. Second off.. you think when you hit your Battallion you'll be training non-stop and get to be hard? Think again. I hope you like to sit around for hours looking at lockers doing nothing day after day. You may ask.. oh why dont we train all the time..simple... Its not in the budget. The military is a business and has to stay in its spending left and right arc., They cant keep sending troops to ranges and excersise because lack of money and qual. People to lead them. Also when people see they can have a exciting career on commercials sure you can.. only if you get picked by chain of command to go on certain courses you need to purse these actions. Being new to a base you'll be put to end of the line for things, unless your with a platoon of shit pumps. Well after spending a year at your actual unit let me know if its everything you dreamed of.


----------



## kratz

You do realize your first post is correcting someone who commented nearly 10 years ago?


----------



## George Wallace

Both feet firmly placed and locked in mouth I would think.


----------



## Pointer

kratz said:
			
		

> You do realize your first post is correcting someone who commented nearly 10 years ago?



Perhaps, but he raises good points. 

The only part he missed was the fact that, on operations, you'll be paid the same "hazard" allowance as people that are exposed to virtually no "hazard" in the interests of not offending anyone. 

I have an idea for a new recruiting poster - hard hitting and designed to convey the gritty reality of the CF: 

Double-amputees sitting next to desk jockies with a byline that reads "Equal pay for equal risk!". 

It would certainly solve the problem of the infantry being over-populated. Don't even get me started on the EOD allowance.


----------



## George Wallace

Pointer said:
			
		

> Perhaps, but he raises good points.
> 
> The only part he missed was the fact that, on operations, you'll be paid the same "hazard" allowance as people that are exposed to virtually no "hazard" in the interests of not offending anyone.
> 
> I have an idea for a new recruiting poster - hard hitting and designed to convey the gritty reality of the CF:
> 
> Double-amputees sitting next to desk jockies with a byline that reads "Equal pay for equal risk!".
> 
> It would certainly solve the problem of the infantry being over-populated. Don't even get me started on the EOD allowance.



Perhaps you should dig up the paper written on "Fraggin in Vietnam".  It may enlighten you on your personal conduct.


----------



## ballz

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf87lcjbcGM

This Swedish ad is posted somewhere but I can't find it. I'd like to see the USAF take some notes. Honesty is a good policy. I spent 3 weeks trying to find the lightweight oakley thermal-vision goggles that would find my targets for me that I learned existed in the USAF ad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izYAn7XDFys

I honestly thought it was a video game commercial. I think it toes the line of false advertisement too much for my liking.

EDIT: Someone commented on the video and I just realized... there are two effin' moons for god's sake!


----------



## Pointer

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Perhaps you should dig up the paper written on "Fraggin in Vietnam".  It may enlighten you on your personal conduct.



By all means, explain.


----------



## George Wallace

Pointer said:
			
		

> By all means, explain.



Tell me what your gut feelings really are after you read this:



			
				Pointer said:
			
		

> Perhaps, but he raises good points.
> 
> The only part he missed was the fact that, *on operations*, you'll be paid the same "hazard" allowance as people that are exposed to virtually no "hazard" in the interests of not offending anyone.
> 
> I have an idea for a new recruiting poster - hard hitting and designed to convey the gritty reality of the CF:
> 
> *Double-amputees sitting next to desk jockies with a byline that reads "Equal pay for equal risk!". *
> 
> It would certainly solve the problem of the infantry being over-populated. *Don't even get me started on the EOD allowance.*




Your profile says you are an Infantry officer, currently posting from work.  The paper "Fraggin in Vietnam" was written by an American Colonel as part of a study as to why "fraggin" was so prevalent in the American Army in Vietnam.  It boiled down to young officers, with attitudes similar to what is displayed in the above post, being so arrogant and disrespectful to their troops that their troops found 'novel' ways of 'dispensing' with them.

The display of your distaste for others in the CF is a grievous dishonour to them, and a discusting trait for anyone in any command posn.  Even an illinformed Pte has more cultural awareness than to serious spew those lines.

As has been pointed out in other posts on this site, it is one big TEAM, not just an Infantryman pointing a gun at an enemy.  It is the cooks feeding that Infanteer to keep him fit to fight.  It is the Supply Tech keeping him clothed in order to fight.  It is the Wpn Tech keeping his wpns working in order to keep him in the fight.  It is the Ammo Techs who keep pushing forward the bullets he needs to fight.  It is the Mechanics who keep his vehs on the road so that he can get to the fight.  It is the FCS Techs who are keeping his gunnery systems operating so that he can bring heavier firepower into the fight.  It is the Rad Tech who keeps his radios working so that he can call in Arty, Fast Air, Armour, Engineers, all to assist him in his fight.  It is the RMS Clerk who ensures he gets paid, housed, transported, etc to, from and in between fights.  It is the Postie who keeps his mail coming to give him a break from the fight.  Shall I go on, including the Padres, the Pilots and crew who fly him on operations, and the dozens of others who contribute so that the Infanteer can close with and distroy the enemy.  Your post was an arrogant, ignorant, insult to all the above.  You, in all seriousnes, are lucky that you haven't been fragged.


----------



## 57Chevy

Well said G.W.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Pointer said:
			
		

> Perhaps, but he raises good points.
> 
> The only part he missed was the fact that, on operations, you'll be paid the same "hazard" allowance as people that are exposed to virtually no "hazard" in the interests of not offending anyone.
> 
> I have an idea for a new recruiting poster - hard hitting and designed to convey the gritty reality of the CF:
> 
> Double-amputees sitting next to desk jockies with a byline that reads "Equal pay for equal risk!".
> 
> It would certainly solve the problem of the infantry being over-populated. Don't even get me started on the EOD allowance.



George was too kind when he explained things to you.

Plainly, you are a friggin' idiot.


----------



## Pointer

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Tell me what your gut feelings really are after you read this:
> 
> 
> Your profile says you are an Infantry officer, currently posting from work.  The paper "Fraggin in Vietnam" was written by an American Colonel as part of a study as to why "fraggin" was so prevalent in the American Army in Vietnam.  It boiled down to young officers, with attitudes similar to what is displayed in the above post, being so arrogant and disrespectful to their troops that their troops found 'novel' ways of 'dispensing' with them.



Actually, my objection to the hazard pay issue and EOD allowance is motivated by quite the opposite feeling as that which you've attributed to me.  After watching subordinates and peers get blown up, I'm more than a little annoyed that "hazard pay" isn't scaled to the actual hazards. My objection to the EOD allowance isn't that it exists, but that regular Combat Engineers don't get any similar compensation when they're the ones usually involved in one of the most dangerous stages of counter-IED operations (namely finding the IED and confirming it). 



> The display of your distaste for others in the CF is a grievous dishonour to them, and a discusting trait for anyone in any command posn.  Even an illinformed Pte has more cultural awareness than to serious spew those lines.



What distaste for other CF members? My distaste is with our asinine compensation regime. Actually, maybe I do have a certain distaste for certain CF members - namely the ones that are responsible for designing said compensation regime.  If you're referring to the "desk jockey" crack - I'm now one of them. "Desk jockies" exist in all trades. 



> As has been pointed out in other posts on this site, it is one big TEAM, not just an Infantryman pointing a gun at an enemy.  It is the cooks feeding that Infanteer to keep him fit to fight.  It is the Supply Tech keeping him clothed in order to fight.  It is the Wpn Tech keeping his wpns working in order to keep him in the fight.  It is the Ammo Techs who keep pushing forward the bullets he needs to fight.  It is the Mechanics who keep his vehs on the road so that he can get to the fight.  It is the FCS Techs who are keeping his gunnery systems operating so that he can bring heavier firepower into the fight.  It is the Rad Tech who keeps his radios working so that he can call in Arty, Fast Air, Armour, Engineers, all to assist him in his fight.  It is the RMS Clerk who ensures he gets paid, housed, transported, etc to, from and in between fights.  It is the Postie who keeps his mail coming to give him a break from the fight.  Shall I go on, including the Padres, the Pilots and crew who fly him on operations, and the dozens of others who contribute so that the Infanteer can close with and distroy the enemy.



Right. Where does any of that mean that hazard pay can't be scaled to hazard? By your logic, we shouldn't pay spec pay, SOF pay, the EOD allowance, jump pay, etc.

Ignoring the ridiculously steep discrepancy in "hazard" experienced by different groups in the interests of "equality" and "the team" is outrageous. The hazard isn't equal, therefore the pay shouldn't be.  There are a million other areas where we aren't paid "as a team", I'm not sure why combat operations shouldn't be one of them. It could be $50 a month - it's the principle that bothers me. 

I'm not arguing for trade-specific hazard pay. A medic and an infantryman on patrol face the same risks. Or a Sig Op, or whatever. 



> Your post was an arrogant, ignorant, insult to all the above.  You, in all seriousnes, are lucky that you haven't been fragged.



No, my post was a sarcastic jab at an utterly stupid policy.  Admittedly, I probably could have taken a couple edges off of it but I don't think it was overly cryptic in what it was getting at.  It certainly didn't warrant the equivalent of "you deserve to die". Knee-jerk sensitivity and back-shooting may be your chosen COA - that's your decision.  Your response, thus far, has been embarrassingly ridiculous with talk of "fragging", all motivated (apparently) by vicarious offense on behalf of a group of people whom, in every dealing I've had, agree with me entirely.  I'm not sure if it's just PC-ness or an issue of reading comprehension, but it's completely disproportionate and fails to address the issue at hand. 

Yes - my troops, whom I had the utmost love and respect for and did my best to protect (unsuccessfully, at times), absolutely hated me for feeling that they should be better compensated for the risks they experienced overseas and for actively advocating therefor.  My overworked, sherpa-like combat engineers that had the admirable task of digging in the dirt to confirm if they were huddled over a padlock or a 120mm arty shell connected to some Iranian lamp cord and a motorcycle battery absolutely despised my respect for their intestinal fortitude and my feeling that they be justly and fairly compensated.  Same thing with my medic - when he got concussed and his eardrum blown out by the blast that almost killed the guy in front of him, he absolutely loathed me for believing he should be paid a little more than someone sharing the same risks as a Tim Horton's employee on KAF. They could barely contain their desire to shoot me in the back. 

And no, I'm not going to tiptoe around the fact that a person that comes back home missing parts or disabled was paid the same "hazard" pay as someone that spent their entire time in a fortified sea container because some of the latter may get offended.  That's what the senior leadership in charge of such policy has decided to do. The issue of equal pay for completely unequal hazard is an absolute insult to the troops bearing the brunt of the hazard and just reveals how far down the PC, ignore-the-elephant-in-the-room, head-in-sand hole the CF has gone.


----------



## RCR Grunt




----------



## ballz

I don't have a dog in this fight, but since you're talking about "the principal," how would someone's wife feel when they become their widow instead, and their husband "wasn't even receiving hazard pay."

And how would you award hazard pay if not by trade? (which wouldn't work either...) Would you get "per foot patrol" pay and "per convoy escort" pay? On top of "which FOB you're in" pay? Like I said, I have no dog in this fight, but since you are advocating a better answer than the apparently stupid one that's in place, I would be interested in hearing what your better answer is.

Regardless, there is no winning an argument that's about someone putting their life on the line. Someone is always going to feel (and probably rightfully so, or maybe not) that they are getting screwed compared to the next person.


----------



## George Wallace

Pointer said:
			
		

> Actually, my objection to the hazard pay issue and EOD allowance is motivated by quite the opposite feeling as that which you've attributed to me.  After watching subordinates and peers get blown up, I'm more than a little annoyed that "hazard pay" isn't scaled to the actual hazards. My objection to the EOD allowance isn't that it exists, but that regular Combat Engineers don't get any similar compensation when they're the ones usually involved in one of the most dangerous stages of counter-IED operations (namely finding the IED and confirming it).



Sorry.  I missed that nuance in your post.  I will agree with you on your clarification.




			
				Pointer said:
			
		

> What distaste for other CF members? My distaste is with our asinine compensation regime. Actually, maybe I do have a certain distaste for certain CF members - namely the ones that are responsible for designing said compensation regime.  If you're referring to the "desk jockey" crack - I'm now one of them. "Desk jockies" exist in all trades.



I am sure many others hold these opinions, but are not cognisant as to the difficulties to create a fair and just system to cover compensation.  I am sure that the CF members and their civilian counterparts are trying their best to create a fair system.  I am also sure that some CF members have ulterior motives as well; to promote change more for the points on their own PERs than for anything else.  Why else does it seem that we are constantly "reinventing the wheel", and not always for the better?  I also know that outside agencies, such as Treasury Board will dictate what we do or do not do.



			
				Pointer said:
			
		

> Right. Where does any of that mean that hazard pay can't be scaled to hazard?



It is.  Are there not four different levels to Hazard Pay.  Afghanistan falls into the top level, if I am correct.  Other AORs are paid lesser levels.



			
				Pointer said:
			
		

> By your logic, we shouldn't pay spec pay, SOF pay, the EOD allowance, jump pay, etc.



Are not those deployed also keeping their various Spec Pay, Operations Allowances, different levels of pay for time served outside of Canada, etc.?  



			
				Pointer said:
			
		

> Ignoring the ridiculously steep discrepancy in "hazard" experienced by different groups in the interests of "equality" and "the team" is outrageous. The hazard isn't equal, therefore the pay shouldn't be.  There are a million other areas where we aren't paid "as a team", I'm not sure why combat operations shouldn't be one of them. It could be $50 a month - it's the principle that bothers me.



I disagree.  There are no frontlines in Afghanistan.  This is COIN.  KAF has been attacked.  People in KAF have been awarded medals for bravery,  Remember the Engineers who hopped into a LAV and fought off a bunch of insurgents infiltrating the wire?



			
				Pointer said:
			
		

> No, my post was a sarcastic jab at an utterly stupid policy.  Admittedly, I probably could have taken a couple edges off of it but I don't think it was overly cryptic in what it was getting at.  It certainly didn't warrant the equivalent of "you deserve to die". Knee-jerk sensitivity and back-shooting may be your chosen COA - that's your decision.  Your response, thus far, has been embarrassingly ridiculous with talk of "fragging", all motivated (apparently) by vicarious offense on behalf of a group of people whom, in every dealing I've had, agree with me entirely.  I'm not sure if it's just PC-ness or an issue of reading comprehension, but it's completely disproportionate and fails to address the issue at hand.
> 
> Yes - my troops, whom I had the utmost love and respect for and did my best to protect (unsuccessfully, at times), absolutely hated me for feeling that they should be better compensated for the risks they experienced overseas and for actively advocating therefor.  My overworked, sherpa-like combat engineers that had the admirable task of digging in the dirt to confirm if they were huddled over a padlock or a 120mm arty shell connected to some Iranian lamp cord and a motorcycle battery absolutely despised my respect for their intestinal fortitude and my feeling that they be justly and fairly compensated.  Same thing with my medic - when he got concussed and his eardrum blown out by the blast that almost killed the guy in front of him, he absolutely loathed me for believing he should be paid a little more than someone sharing the same risks as a Tim Horton's employee on KAF. They could barely contain their desire to shoot me in the back.
> 
> And no, I'm not going to tiptoe around the fact that a person that comes back home missing parts or disabled was paid the same "hazard" pay as someone that spent their entire time in a fortified sea container because some of the latter may get offended.  That's what the senior leadership in charge of such policy has decided to do. The issue of equal pay for completely unequal hazard is an absolute insult to the troops bearing the brunt of the hazard and just reveals how far down the PC, ignore-the-elephant-in-the-room, head-in-sand hole the CF has gone.



Well then I apologize.  The "automatic sarcasm indicator" hasn't been implemented in the software running this site, and it is a bytch trying to read it in at times.  I am sure that when  until such time thatMike develops a better website, where using software that marries SKYPE, Facebook, Chat, YouTube and whatever other programs necessary to present audio video posts on this forum, we will continue to have this problem of accurately reading what it truly is that a person is trying to post; sarcasm, humour, tongue in cheek, etc.

It will be a long day coming, however, when we will see any honest and fair compensation dealt out to our pers for their service and injuries incurred in the service of the nation.  We can call for perfection, but never achieve it.  Someone will always feel maligned.  Would inserting a chip into every CF Member be acceptable?  A chip that would record every movement they make in their careers, that would record their level of training, qualifications, time outside of country on missions or training, time at sea, time in the air, Spec Pay level, time they get on a plane to deploy, time they arrive in/depart an operational theatre, what level of Hazard Pay that operation theatre warrants, time they were in contact with an enemy, etc.  Would that be possible?  Would it even be acceptable under the Charter of Human Rights and Privacy Act?  

We can tinker with our Pay and Allowances all we want, but there will be no perfect solution that will be accepted that has no detractors.   Someone will always find reason to complain.


----------



## dangles

ballz said:
			
		

> I don't have a dog in this fight, but since you're talking about "the principal," how would someone's wife feel when they become their widow instead, and their husband "wasn't even receiving hazard pay."
> 
> And how would you award hazard pay if not by trade? (which wouldn't work either...) Would you get "per foot patrol" pay and "per convoy escort" pay? On top of "which FOB you're in" pay? Like I said, I have no dog in this fight, but since you are advocating a better answer than the apparently stupid one that's in place, I would be interested in hearing what your better answer is.
> 
> Regardless, there is no winning an argument that's about someone putting their life on the line. Someone is always going to feel (and probably rightfully so, or maybe not) that they are getting screwed compared to the next person.



I agree. I mean obviously the infantry has a more dangerous time than the Tim Horton's worker at KAF [mentioned previously], but this is what the infantryman signed up for. I mean the whole infantry job entails an inherent hazard when it comes to fighting a war/in general. The same can be said for EOD etc. So I mean I guess the argument that other people could [not saying they'd be ballsy enough to ever do so] would be that since infantry are simply doing what they were trained for and were expected of, why should they receive any more hazard pay than the Tim Horton's worker? And also, the Tim Horton's worker who never expected to be in an operational theatre should be paid the same hazard pay as there is still a risk to their life and they were not as prepared/aware for Afghanistan. [But this argument is assuming they were tasked to KAF, and they did not volunteer...not being a member of the CF I am not sure how it works for them].

I am just playing Devil's advocate though, I mean I agree that certain trades should get more hazard pay. But sorry if I am stepping on any toes here, this is purely just a speculative insight into why maybe the hazard pay works the way it does.


----------



## PuckChaser

I would agree that KAF has its inherent risks as it's in an operational theatre and the rocket threat is always there. However, a person in KAF who has access to Timmies and a phone on a daily basis shouldn't be getting the same hardship pay as a member living in a seacan out in a FOB for their 7 month tour. I'm not advocating a decrease in the Hardship for KAF, but add another level for members who live outside the wire. It may go a long way to remove some of the animosity between the pointy end and their support elements.

Then theres the other end of the spectrum: You picked your trade, and the KAF person picked theirs. Don't be angry because they get a better go out of it.  >


----------



## Swingline1984

It's all semantics.  The same arguments could be made for peacetime where some of us folks play sports, clean guns and go home while some of us continue to work long days and weekends to ensure the machine runs smoothly (as smoothly as a machine with square wheels can run).  I think when you look at the big picture we are all compensated pretty well overall.  With regards to our injured personnel I think every effort should be made to ensure they get what is coming to them whether they stepped on a mine in Kandahar or fell off a truck in Shilo.


----------



## MikeL

dangles said:
			
		

> why should they receive any more hazard pay than the Tim Horton's worker? And also, the *Tim Horton's worker who never expected to be in an operational theatre  * should be paid the same hazard pay as there is still a risk to their life and they were not as prepared_*/aware for Afghanistan*_.




You do realize they volunteered for that job.. no one forced them to go.  I would bet they would be aware of the war going on there from the news, etc unless they are that clueless. Or at least from some kind of work up?


----------



## dangles

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> You do realize they volunteered for that job.. no one forced them to go.  I would bet they would be aware of the war going on there from the news, etc unless they are that clueless. Or at least from some kind of work up?



Clearly I did not realize this as my post specifically states "[But this argument is assuming they were tasked to KAF, and they did not volunteer...not being a member of the CF I am not sure how it works for them]." 

My post was not clear about what I meant about awareness though. I just meant when they signed up, they would not necessarily be as conscious of their requirements/ability to go into an operational theatre one day. I mean people should know the CF could send you to any part of the world, but this is something overlooked I am sure when people sign up for certain trades...whereas the infantryman would clearly [hopefully] understand this requirement.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Then theres the other end of the spectrum: You picked your trade, and the KAF person picked theirs. Don't be angry because they get a better go out of it.  >



On the third hand, most, if not all, of the pers in KAF are from trades that have people outside the wire - and some would give their left testicle to switch places with those OTW.  Its the Army.  You don't get to chose where they send you.


----------



## MikeL

dangles said:
			
		

> Clearly I did not realize this as my post specifically states "[But this argument is assuming they were tasked to KAF, and they did not volunteer...not being a member of the CF I am not sure how it works for them]."
> 
> My post was not clear about what I meant about awareness though. I just meant when they signed up, they would not necessarily be as conscious of their requirements/ability to go into an operational theatre one day. I mean people should know the CF could send you to any part of the world, but this is something overlooked I am sure when people sign up for certain trades...whereas the infantryman would clearly [hopefully] understand this requirement.



First the Tim Hortons thing, I'm actually kind of shocked that you believed Tim Hortons could just tell it's employees they are going overseas.  It's Tim Hortons, they are civilians under no contract, not CF members, etc.  They volunteer for the KAF location for X amount of months.  If they knew they could work in the KAF location when they first got a job at Tim Hortons doesn't mean anything as they are not told one day that they are going to Afghanistan.


If someone joins the Military and they believe they would just stay in Canada for their entire time in the CF, especially right now when a war is going on that involves large numbers of Canadians they would be quite naive. I haven't been in the Recruiting process for a long time so my memory may be off but I'm quite sure they ask during the interview if you are willing to serve overseas.


----------



## OldSolduer

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> On the third hand, most, if not all, of the pers in KAF are from trades that have people outside the wire - and some would give their left testicle to switch places with those OTW.  Its the Army.  You don't get to chose where they send you.



Bang on.


----------



## catalyst

I'm going to jump out of my lane here, but let me give my .02 cents as the ex-CFPSA worker. 

First off - we didn't work for timmies, we worked for CFPSA/CFPFSS or whatever today's name is. We were all NPF folks - that includes gym people, the other retail outlets, the people that got the stuff to the retail outlets, the people that got you your beer (and the people who shipped stuff to the FOBs so y'all could have 'stuff'), the people who did your travel, and some other people whom I'm sure I've forgotten. Up until about 2000, when NPF took over (I think that was the year, so they tell us) a lot of the 'canteens' on deployment were done by military members.....but then the military decided to use its personnel for well, army stuff. 

We all volunteered to go. We knew what we were getting into. 

Yes, we got FSP and Hazard Pay. We also got HLTA. I cannot comment why we got the same allowances as somebody outside the wire - that decision as made way outside my pay grade and I'm told was dictated by the TB (who also dicated our non-tax free status). My gut guess is that for 'good' people to work in a war-zone, they would have to have an attractive compensation package, which includes 'danger pay' in addition to the base salary.  I was suprised to hear those outside the wire would earn the same base 'hazard pay' but was not suprised for those within the wire.  As staff of 'the non-public funds of the Canadian Forces', it would just make sense. 

I had thought there was some provision for a commander to raise the hazard pay level for a 'hazard bonus' in times of increased danger.....although I could be very, very wrong - has this ever been done?

I now return you to your regular discussion. 

(oh, and some CFPSA-ers went outside KAF, both at CNS, and other fobs (temporary, of course).


----------



## dangles

Edited so I do not detract from the point of this conversation.


----------



## ballz

I think this discussion would be better off leaving the civilian side of it out altogether... As CF members discussing CF "issues," I really don't see how comparing ourselves to civilian counterparts that are "volunteering (for pay...)" offers any solution to what we are talking about.

In other words, how someone working at Tim Horton's in KAF is being compensated is IMO irrelevant from whether an Infantry O in a battlegroup should be getting paid more than a CF cook in KAF, or an Infantry O that stays in KAF his whole tour (because that is what's required of him). Or whether a CF cook in a FOB should be getting more hazard pay than said Infantry O in KAF, or fellow cook in KAF.

To me his civilian comparison is irrelevant bantering. If you think you'd be better off working at Tim Horton's in KAF, then release and "volunteer," no one forced you to swear an oath and no one is forcing you to stay in the CF. There are a ton of applicants that are lined up at recruiting centres waiting for April 1st to roll around (every year, just for a chance that a spot *might* open) that would be happy to take your spot, regardless of not being treated "equal" to a civilian counterpart.

EDIT to add: My best friend is graduating from chemical engineering in less than 2 weeks. He's considering Airfield Engineer O. He grew up with me in Fort Mac and he knows he can make better money in an easier job, but he's still considering it. If he signs up and starts complaining about engineers in Fort Mac making 250k a year while he's out risking his balls in some foreign country for Captain's pay, I'm giving him a slap. ;D


----------



## 57Chevy

Pointer,
Your clarification is a lot more thought invoking than your initial post of a new recruiting poster.

To keep the record straight, its not EOD allowance, it's called Exceptional Hazard Allowance.
Here are a couple of links for information to browse through.

DAOD 8000-1, Explosive Ordnance Disposal (EOD) Instructions
http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/8000/8000-1-eng.asp
--- 
deployment outside Canada:

directives for clearance or disposal of EO, UXO, IEDs and booby traps issued for the specific theatre or mission and provided to the deployed task force commander (TFC) by NDHQ/COS J3. The directives provide:

if EOD is a CF-mission task; and
if CF EOD forces are authorized to be employed either with or under operational control of other allied EOD forces.

Exceptional Hazard Allowance
The conditions and limitations governing the payment of Exceptional Hazard Allowance (EHA) are set out in CBI 205.38, Exceptional Hazard Allowance (EHA).
In an operational deployment outside Canada, the TFC recommends the payment of EHA payment and DAPM acts as the approving authority.
Only DAPM, on the recommendation of the LFA HQ, OLHQ or TFC, may authorize payment of EHA to more than two CF members in a given incident.
Once EHA approval has been received, the CF member shall submit to the CO a claim for EHA on form CF 52, General Allowance Claim, in triplicate showing particulars of the incident and declaring that no previous payment has been made. The CO must certify on the claim that the claimant was ordered to carry out the disposal procedure.
---
                         ___________________________________________________________________

As G.W. mentionned on keeping the various spec pay, operations allowance....... 

CBI Chapter 205 - Allowances for officers and non-commissioned members
http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pub/cbi-dra/205-eng.asp205.38      (scroll the page)
--- 
 - EXCEPTIONAL HAZARD ALLOWANCE (EHA)
205.38(2) (Eligibility) An officer or non-commissioned member is entitled to Exceptional Hazard Allowance in the amount of $334 when the member is ordered to carry out normal disposal procedures on a known or suspected improvised explosive device, explosive chemical or printed charge, unless the member is in receipt of an allowance under 205.385 (Special Operations Allowance) .
205.38(3) (Chief of the Defence Staff may authorize payment) When the circumstances so warrant, the Chief of the Defence Staff may approve payment of Exceptional Hazard Allowance in the amount of $173 to an officer or non-commissioned member who is ordered to carry out normal disposal procedures on any other extremely hazardous commercial explosives or chemicals, unless the member is in receipt of an allowance under 205.385 (Special Operations Allowance) .
(TB, effective 1 April 2008)
 ---
205.385 - SPECIAL OPERATIONS ALLOWANCE (SOA) 

205.385(3) (Entitlement)A member on eligible service is entitled to Special Operations Allowance at the applicable monthly rate as set out in Table "A" or "B" to this instruction for the member's accumulated eligible service and category of service as designated by the Chief of the Defence Staff.
---
205.385(7) (Limitation) A member in receipt of Special Operations Allowance is not entitled to any of the following allowances:

CBI 205.30 (Paratroop Allowance);
CBI 205.305 (Casual Paratroop Allowance);
CBI 205.31 (Rescue Specialist Allowance);
CBI 205.32 (Aircrew Allowance);
CBI 205.325 (Casual Aircrew Allowance);
CBI 205.34 (Diving Allowance);
CBI 205.345(Casual Diving Allowance);
CBI 205.35 (Sea Duty Allowance);
CBI 205.355 (Casual Sea Duty Allowance);
CBI 205.37 (Submarine Allowance);
CBI 205.375 (Casual Submarine Allowance);
CBI 205.38 (Exceptional Hazard Allowance); or
CBI 205.395 (Survey Allowance).
   ---                          _________________________________________________________

And there is also this article from 2005: 
Environmental Allowance Review Team visits Canadian soldiers in Kabul
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/land-terre/news-nouvelles/story-reportage-eng.asp?id=455


Maybe they could do a new review.
 :yellow:


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the public tender:


> .... The Department of the National Defence (DND) and the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) require a Contractor to develop an innovative and integrative recruitment marketing and advertising strategy, as well as plan, manage and implement regional and national campaigns, activities and partnerships ...."



This, from the Statement of Work (attached as SOW):


> .... Moving forward, the focus of advertising messaging will shift with the evolving focus of Canada's military. Ongoing recruitment continues to be the priority and the emphasis will change to accurately reflect the reality of life in the CAF. As Fight portrays the CAF with a combat focus, and Priority Occupations promotes specific careers, future campaigns will showcase the CAF's lifestyle with an emphasis on the recruitment of women.  The lifestyle message will demonstrate that a career in the CAF is a good career option for women and should dispel myths ....



This, from the environmental scan/what's the lay of the land now document (based on focus groups, marked as "Other-Info"):


> .... Awareness, Impressions and Perceptions of the CAF
> Awareness of the CAF and its activities was fairly low, but impressions and perceptions of the CAF were strongly positive.
> 
> (....)
> 
> Strategic Gap Analysis
> The barriers that the CAF faces in recruiting women, as identified in the Women focus test and
> Formative research are:
> – If considered at all, the CAF is considered amongst a variety of other employment opportunities;
> – Lack of perception of "normalcy" in the CAF, fear of lack of work-life balance;
> – Lack of knowledge about day-to-day specifics of being employed by the CAF (including pay, work
> schedule, deployment potential, and length of commitment);
> – Lack of knowledge of the variety of occupations available in the CAF (specifically the non combat
> occupations);
> – The CAF is seen as masculine, physically demanding, challenging to one's character and
> old-fashioned ....



Full RFP package available here (via Dropbox.com).


----------



## Eye In The Sky

How about a strategy that focus on recruiting the best PEOPLE for the CAF, regardless of their sex, color, favorite band and best childhood fucking memory.

 :


----------



## George Wallace

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> How about a strategy that focus on recruiting the best PEOPLE for the CAF, regardless of their sex, color, favorite band and best childhood fucking memory.
> 
> :



Only problem with that is that some minority will perceive it as being discriminatory.    :


----------



## Michael OLeary

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> How about a strategy that focus on recruiting the best PEOPLE for the CAF, regardless of their sex, color, favorite band and best childhood ******* memory.
> 
> :



Could it be something about being a reflection of the society we come from? Apparently we're not doing a bad job with some demographic groups, and for others the only issue may be the effectiveness of the information reaching them. Why is that a bad thing? Did it say anything about cutting back on recruiting certain groups, or was it about improving our message to others?


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Maybe they're just not interested, and won't be despite throwing good money after bad on 'targetted' recruiting ads.  Seems to me this circle of effort has been going on for years without the desired result.  At what point do you say "enough"?


----------



## Michael OLeary

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> At what point do you say "enough"?



About the same time that people stop coming here to ask about the CFAT and being recruited with medical issues because they've all started to read all the available material.


----------



## Edward Campbell

A couple of things bother me just a bit:



> - Lack of perception of "normalcy" in the CAF, fear of lack of work-life balance;
> ...
> – The CAF is seen as masculine, physically demanding, challenging to one's character and old-fashioned ....



I fully understand that we, you, they (whoever) do a poor less than adequate job of telling women about opportunities but whoever ought not to sugarcoat a profession which does, very often, offer a shitty _work-life balance_, which is _physically demanding_, which does _challenge one's character_ and so on and so forth.

Let's by all means tell all Canadians about the good things we have to offer, but let's be sure to tell the truth about our business, even when it's not what some people want to hear.


----------



## Strike

A good work-life balance is achievable, and if they were to focus on successful women in the CAF that have achieved that standard then maybe more women would be interested in joining.  They're not hard to find.

Heck, I know of at least half a dozen women, who are Major, LCols or above with kids who have led (or are about to lead) units.  Most of them have been part of a fully deployable unit and/or been away for extended periods, been able to manage staff college, been deployed, you name it.  They still find time to take family vacations, bake birthday cakes, whatever.

(And the cake-baking isn't limited to the women.  Happen to know of a foodie Colonel who's made some pretty rockin' birthday cakes for his kids.  ;D)

Hopefully they will do something similar to the last campaign, where they interviewed/highlighted actual serving CAF members.  There's enough out there that have made it work.


----------



## pbi

> Men wanted for hazardous journey. Low wages, bitter cold, long hours of complete darkness. Safe return doubtful. Honour and recognition in event of success.



It's tempting to post an ad like Shackleton did for his expedition: he assumed that only the exact people he wanted would show up.

But, if the CAF did that, drawing on current Canadian society, could they fill the ranks?


----------



## Edward Campbell

You know, we filled the ranks, all 120,00 regular force ones, back _circa_ 1960 with a disproportionately large number of relatively (often very) poorly educated men from First Nations and school leavers from Atlantic Canada.

Pay was low - we didn't become anything like adequately paid until about 1970, when Mr Hellyer's _compensation plan_, which involved making almost all privates into _instant_ corporals and making lieutenants into equally _instant_ captains, came into full effect. "Civvy street" was less warm and friendly than now for the unemployed and the army (and navy and air force) advertised adventure (fun), trades training (OK, OK so maybe machine gunner is not easily transferable to the private sector, but ...), travel and 30 days leave a year.

Training was expensive; it had to be designed to take a young fellow with an inadequate education - _maybe_ Grade VIII from an aboriginal school in Norther Ontario - and very limited contact with the modern world (some guys had never had electricity or plumbing in their homes) and make them into crewmen, field engineers, radio operators, vehicle mechanics and the like.

Conditions of service were fair but tough. Units were pretty much self contained and most soldiers didn't have, didn't need to have, much contact with anyone outside the unit - not for pay, not for medical, not for dental, not for promotion or course selection, not for much of anything. Discipline was strict but not harsh but punishments for minor offences (I recall being charged and punished for twisted boot laces!) were frequent, public and not worth much worry. (I don't think any of the fellows with whom I went through initial officer training had not been charged and punished more than once.)

My recollection, which may well be through rose coloured glasses and blurred by time, was that turnover was 'good,' we had a fairly steady flow of guys leaving after three or five years - enlistment periods varied in the '50s and '60s, including by service and trade - and new guys coming to the unit from the Regimental Depot. Soldiers did not wait very long to join (or to be rejected) a week or two from first meeting at the recruiting office to formal enrollment was not uncommon; the recruiting centres were _selective_ - there were a whole lot more guys in the "I wanna join" line than in the "Welcome to the Army" line.


----------



## vonGarvin

If we want a CAF that is effective at getting the right people in to do what can often be extremely dangerous work, then they ought to have a campaign similar to this:







Or this:






You know, the kind of advert that calls for people to self actualize, get the go-getters who aspire to greatness and self improvement.

If you want people to join so that they can have a career, then keep the status quo:







(Edit because it didn't seem to take my entire original message)


----------



## George Wallace

Technoviking said:
			
		

> If we want a CAF that is effective at getting the right people in to do what can often be extremely dangerous work, then they ought to have a campaign similar to this:



A FEMALE or non-gender specific version just won't cut it.


----------



## methionine

Is it just me, or have there been an increase in the Canadian Armed Forces commercials on T.V?

Perhaps they are trying to hire more people, not enough applicants in certain positions?

Anyways, was wondering if anyone else had noticed this or not.


----------



## Remius

Yes, I noticed as well.


Might be end of year spending too, since we are in the 4th quarter of the fiscal year.  :dunno:


----------



## PuckChaser

It makes sense though, you spend money on commercials now, to recruit for next fiscal year.


----------



## e13tankbuster

Huge increase.. I've even received nice brochures in my mail box to join the local reserves.

Thinking the govt is building a pool "in case of" deployment...._whenever_


----------



## dimsum

Crantor said:
			
		

> Might be end of year spending too, since we are in the 4th quarter of the fiscal year.  :dunno:



I'd bet $ it's that and nothing more special/sinister.


----------



## Pat in Halifax

Yes and the two most 'in demand' trades (from an operational perspective) in the CAF right now; Marine Engineer and Electrical Technician get a whole 4 seconds in the latest ad.....


----------



## cryco

I mentioned the increased promos to my interviewer, and she said something about fiscal year and budgets.


----------



## dapaterson

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> Yes and the two most 'in demand' trades (from an operational perspective) in the CAF right now; Marine Engineer and Electrical Technician get a whole 4 seconds in the latest ad.....



Well, 4/30 = 13%.  With about 100 occupations in the CAF, they're grossly over represented


----------



## jollyjacktar

All the money the GoC blows on commercials, such as the 1812 garbage, and practically SFA about the 50th of the Maple Leaf.  That burns my butt.


----------



## DAA

I do believe that those commercials have been in the works for almost 12 months now, if not longer.  It's a regular advertising cycle and nothing special.

The Marketting budget is probably rather thin, so they have to pick and choose which method(s) will have the most impact.  TV chews up $$$ really quick.


----------



## Tibbson

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> Yes and the two most 'in demand' trades (from an operational perspective) in the CAF right now; Marine Engineer and Electrical Technician get a whole 4 seconds in the latest ad.....



Four seconds is a long time in the advertising world and it's a lot more time then most other trades, in demand or not, got.  They are CAF commercials, not specific trade commercials.  I'm just glad to see them period.  They are quite well done.


----------



## KerryBlue

DAA said:
			
		

> I do believe that those commercials have been in the works for almost 12 months now, if not longer.  It's a regular advertising cycle and nothing special.



Isn't a lot of that footage from exercises in Petawawa in November?


----------



## Pat in Halifax

Schindler's Lift said:
			
		

> Four seconds is a long time in the advertising world and it's a lot more time then most other trades, in demand or not, got.  They are CAF commercials, not specific trade commercials.  I'm just glad to see them period.  They are quite well done.


Showing a ship for 4 seconds is NOT trade specific.


----------



## misratah500

Yes there is a new commercial that was in the works last year. There are 15/30/60 second version of the same commercial i believe. Some for TV and some for theatres. I think they'll lame personally.


----------



## PuckChaser

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> Showing a ship for 4 seconds is NOT trade specific.



They're CAF commercials. If the RCN is having an issue, pony up some dough and make your own commercials? Sigs posted members to a Signals Attraction team that toured around doing Sigs-specific recruiting to help boost numbers. The CFRG has to sell over 100 trades, regardless of PML status or your perceived operational importance. They make a commercial that gets someone in the door of a recruiting center, and then show them the high demand trades.


----------



## methionine

aside from the two trades mentioned by Pay in Halifax, what trades are currently most "in demand"?


----------



## Pat in Halifax

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> They're CAF commercials. If the RCN is having an issue, pony up some dough and make your own commercials? Sigs posted members to a Signals Attraction team that toured around doing Sigs-specific recruiting to help boost numbers. The CFRG has to sell over 100 trades, regardless of PML status or your perceived operational importance. They make a commercial that gets someone in the door of a recruiting center, and then show them the high demand trades.


I was only making an observation on a topic raised by someone and no, I wont 'pony up money' for recruiting no more than CFRG should be expected  to 'pony up' $100K for some 3GP 357.
...
I have also talked to some in Recruiting and echo what is being said; these TV ads eat up a whole lot of $$$. I suspect the 30 second bits in the theatres are pretty pricey too. I think technology has killed recruiting. I signed on the dotted line 19 Jun 82, was sworn in the 23rd and on a flight to Greenwood for Cornwallis on the 26th. It now takes months vice days because of the levels of checks and balances and oversights and things getting 'lost'. The Sgt/PO2's judgement in the Recruiting Centre should be trusted-I think part of the reason is people are giving up on the process-I know of several who have. The Recruiters here are not the ones responsible-I am sure they do their best but the system, for a lack of better terms, is a clusterf*** and until it gets fixed, we are going to have distressed trades.

Pat


----------



## dapaterson

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> They're CAF commercials. If the RCN is having an issue, pony up some dough and make your own commercials? Sigs posted members to a Signals Attraction team that toured around doing Sigs-specific recruiting to help boost numbers. The CFRG has to sell over 100 trades, regardless of PML status or your perceived operational importance. They make a commercial that gets someone in the door of a recruiting center, and then show them the high demand trades.



Advertising isn't done by the recruiting group.  It's done by the Public Affairs group.


And the system is being reformed.  All applications are now sorted and managed nationally; there are no more regional allocations of positions for occupations.  There are other changes ongoing in the recruiting system behind the scenes as well.  Sometimes, however, it takes time to make change.


----------



## Pat in Halifax

But CFRG has their own Marketing Department. I only know this because I am working with a Major there to try to push a few recruiting ideas out. I would have thought a Marketing department would have been responsible for ...marketing. Besides, Public Affairs doesn't give us any oil either ! 

I have heard changes were coming.

I remember in HS recruiters use to come about once a month...and I lived a pretty 'out of the way' community in no man's land between Barrie and Ottawa. As I am typing, said "Canadian Army Ad" is on TV. (That is what a friend on FB called it-She said "You watch that and you wouldn't know Canada has a Navy and AirForce.")


----------



## Remius

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Advertising isn't done by the recruiting group.  It's done by the Public Affairs group.



Things may have changed but CFRG had its own advertising cell.  Public affairs were not involved. Not sure if that's still the case.


----------



## PuckChaser

I'm positive there's no shortage of fighter pilot applicants coming through the door, yet there's a nice clip of a cf-18. It's an all-arms commercial to get people in the door. You're just creating controversy where there is none.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

First of all let me say that I think the ads are well done. Many of you may not have known the 1970's to 1980's era ads where you wondered if the military was actually a fighting force or a group of office workers. They were not martial nor inspirational.

Second of all, I am pretty sure that there is always an increase in CF advertisement in the January-February-March period every year. A budget issue? Possibly, but I personally believe it has more to do with the school cycle. About the same time, you have a whole bunch of students that now realize that in three to four months, they will have graduated and are asking themselves for the first time: Now what? You  want to get as many of these through the door of the recruiting centre now, as their first choice, rather than get only the ones still unable to find work six months later and joining as a "last" resort.


----------



## Good2Golf

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> First of all let me say that I think the ads are well done. Many of you may not have known the 1970's to 1980's era ads where you wondered if the military was actually a fighting force or a group of office workers. They were not martial nor inspirational.



There indeed was no life like it!  :nod:

Those commercials were aimed at people who either wanted to jet setters (the smiling guy coming down the stairs of the Boeing with only a lone suitcase) or compare big bushy moustaches in a darkened room deep in the bowels of a ship somewhere.


G2G


----------



## Old Sweat

And recruiting was lousy and the system explained it as young Canadians not being interested in the military. Finally the recruiting system reluctantly agreed to air a commercial showing troops wading through a swamp. Contrary to the predictions that it would kill recruiting, kids started coming through the door.


----------



## Messorius

Are these new ads online anywhere? I don't own a television, and all I can find are the 2006-08 ones.


----------



## cryco

From the caf site:
http://www.forces.ca/en/Campaign

YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FiNZcuK5VQ


----------



## Pusser

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> First of all let me say that I think the ads are well done. Many of you may not have known the 1970's to 1980's era ads where you wondered if the military was actually a fighting force or a group of office workers. They were not martial nor inspirational.



But can't you still sing the song (there's no life like it and I won't regret the day...)?

The vision of the guy in full combat gear running across the pontoon bridge at Cornwallis is still vivid in my mind, 35 years later.


----------



## DAA

Pusser said:
			
		

> But can't you still sing the song (there's no life like it and I won't regret the day...)?
> 
> The vision of the guy in full combat gear running across the pontoon bridge at Cornwallis is still vivid in my mind, 35 years later.



We could have saved money and just "recycled" this commercial.  I think most of the equipment is still in use!    

There's no life like it!  -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDSaEWdMbI4


----------



## Messorius

cryco said:
			
		

> From the caf site:
> http://www.forces.ca/en/Campaign
> 
> YouTube:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FiNZcuK5VQ



Ty!


----------



## GrimRX

cryco said:
			
		

> From the caf site:
> http://www.forces.ca/en/Campaign
> 
> YouTube:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FiNZcuK5VQ



They should keep the music, loose the voice over except for the tagline.  The images basically speak for themselves.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Pusser said:
			
		

> But can't you still sing the song (there's no life like it and I won't regret the day...)?
> 
> The vision of the guy in full combat gear running across the pontoon bridge at Cornwallis is still vivid in my mind, 35 years later.



Or the guys coming off the ship with their hockey gear.  I bet those guys grandsons are serving on the same ship.


----------



## a_majoor

One thing that I always found funny about the "Fight" series of ads was the payoff never matched the buildup. Perhaps the most bizarre example was the one where a boarding party urgently draws weapons from the arms locker, scrambles aboard the RIB, then races off to......deliver bottles of water.

Somehow the makers of the ads (or the people who commissioned them) could not follow through the conclusion of "fight" and the actual nature and role of the Canadian Forces. Even the most current ads still seem a bit squeamish about what we really are supposed to be doing....


----------



## OldSolduer

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Somehow the makers of the ads (or the people who commissioned them) could not follow through the conclusion of "fight" and the actual nature and role of the Canadian Forces. Even the most current ads still seem a bit squeamish about what we really are supposed to be doing....


Some of our senior leadership is squeamish about what we are supposed to do.

Much better to feel warm and fuzzy than face reality.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Or the guys coming off the ship with their hockey gear.  I bet those guys grandsons are serving on the same ship.



That's why we have a rule in the RCN: When you hit 95% of the crew being younger than the ship, it's time to decommission her.

Don't laugh: On my last stint as CO of PORTE ST-JEAN, which was two weeks before her de-commissioning, the CERA was the only one onboard that was born when she had commissioned.


----------



## SeaKingTacco

I only wish there was such a rule. It might have saved us from the PRO fiasco...


----------



## Ludoc

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> I only wish there was such a rule. It might have saved us from the PRO fiasco...


More likely, we would just start posting people to ships by age.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Someone, somewhere, here on Army.ca, was looking for this: 







The text was:






(Thanks to RAdm John Newton for the "find.")


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Oh god, ERC, I have been trying so hard to forget those days.

And BTW, the picture had to be taken either in the US or in Europe, because they didn't have photoshop in those days, and the large plane (background under the nose of the CC177) is of a type we did not have then in Canada.


----------



## vonGarvin

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Oh god, ERC, I have been trying so hard to forget those days.
> 
> And BTW, the picture had to be taken either in the US or in Europe, because they didn't have photoshop in those days, and the large plane (background under the nose of the CC177) is of a type we did not have then in Canada.



Is that not a CC-130 back there?

As an aside, with those dreadful uniforms, it looks like they are off to the suicide chambers to end it all.


----------



## Old Sweat

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Is that not a CC-130 back there?
> 
> As an aside, with those dreadful uniforms, it looks like they are off to the suicide chambers to end it all.



I don't think it is a CC130. 

This ad drove the old guard, and a bunch of us in the young guard, nuts. It typified everything that was going off the rails in the early seventies with a push for conformity (we came really close to a common cap badge) and management _uber alles_ taking over. It might be going too far to claim that the appointment of Jacques Dextraze as CDS halted the slide and began to alter the course, but not by much.


----------



## dimsum

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> I don't think it is a CC130.
> 
> This ad drove the old guard, and a bunch of us in the young guard, nuts. It typified everything that was going off the rails in the early seventies with a push for conformity (we came really close to a common cap badge) and management _uber alles_ taking over. It might be going too far to claim that the appointment of Jacques Dextraze as CDS halted the slide and began to alter the course, but not by much.



....is it just my computer, or do some others not see what ERC is referring to in the post yesterday?


----------



## Old Sweat

Dimsum said:
			
		

> ....is it just my computer, or do some others not see what ERC is referring to in the post yesterday?



You may be too young and innocent to imagine the effect a recruiting ad claiming that a young captain in what was supposed to be a fighting organization actually was a civilian executive had on a large proportion of the officer corps. Even the tone of the blurb which was oriented towards self-advancement and not service to Canada was highly offensive to many.

I know of combat arms commanding officers who forbade their officers from carrying briefcases as a reaction to the ad.


----------



## dimsum

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> You may be too young and innocent to imagine the effect a recruiting ad claiming that a young captain in what was supposed to be a fighting organization actually was a civilian executive had on a large proportion of the officer corps. Even the tone of the blurb which was oriented towards self-advancement and not service to Canada was highly offensive to many.
> 
> I know of combat arms commanding officers who forbade their officers from carrying briefcases as a reaction to the ad.



Oh no, I mean I physically can't see it - ERC's post just has blanks where (presumably) there was video.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Oh no, I mean I physically can't see it - ERC's post just has blanks where (presumably) there was video.




I can see it ... if you want I'll send them to you via other means.


----------



## Edward Campbell

A bit of background, as it was told to me by the officer in the picture: The young officer was a CELE (Air) captain working at Trenton ~ he had an undistinguished military career but a rather more successful one as an engineer with TeleSat ... he just happened to be near the flight line on the day the ad agency was shooting the piece and he was dragooned into it. I'm no sure if they did any photoshopping or if, just as likely, a foreign aircraft was in Trenton for some reason.

Further to Old Sweat's comments: the ad actually did some good, in its own way. It crystalized some senior officers' thinking about what had gone so dreadfully wrong with what should be, actually, a fairly simple business. Some of our leaders began to fight back ... it was, and it remains a _loooooong_ uphill struggle and there has been much backsliding on the way, but I think we you the CF saw the one error of its ways. Of course, for every admiral and general who saw that _management_ was destroying both _leadership_ and the _military ethos_ there was another general or admiral who thought exactly the opposite. We were seeing, in our own senior ranks, what Evelyn Waugh described in the _Sword of Honour_ series of novels ( in _Officers and Gentleman_, I think, but it may have been _Men at Arms_ or _Unconditional Surrender_) as military men being, in reality, just "heavily armed civilians."

Several colossally bad decisions ~ including e.g. the formation of Air Command ~ date from that period.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Mention of the ad always brings to mind "Where, oh where have all the Tigers gone?" . . .



> Here, at last, I had met the model for that marvelous recruiting advertisement which depicted an immaculate young officer descending, attaché case in hand, from a jet transport, to the accompaniment of a stirring call to arms to the effect that commissioning in the Canadian Armed Forces automatically transforms any young man into an EXECUTIVE.



Like many military scribblings worthy of occasional resurrection it can be found on Michael O'Leary's site.
http://regimentalrogue.com/papers/oldtiger.htm


----------



## Good2Golf

That is indeed a Herc in the background, just far field overexposure that distorts the C-130's profile.  White upper and bare aluminum lower fuselage was the paint scheme of the day, just like the Boeing.

I distinctly remember the "No life like it!" ads that had these guys hustling their briefcases down the air stairs from the Boeing, briefcase in hand.  They couldn't have captured the "little men in green suits" functionary bureaucratic theme any better...uugh! :not-again:

G2G


----------



## dimsum

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I can see it ... if you want I'll send them to you via other means.



Oh no, it's quite alright.  Just reading the descriptions from you guys on the thread has put mental images in my head   :-X

But...are there any glorious moustaches?


----------



## daftandbarmy

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> A bit of background, as it was told to me by the officer in the picture: The young officer was a CELE (Air) captain working at Trenton ~ he had an undistinguished military career but a rather more successful one as an engineer with TeleSat ... he just happened to be near the flight line on the day the ad agency was shooting the piece and he was dragooned into it. I'm no sure if they did any photoshopping or if, just as likely, a foreign aircraft was in Trenton for some reason.
> 
> Further to Old Sweat's comments: the ad actually did some good, in its own way. It crystalized some senior officers' thinking about what had gone so dreadfully wrong with what should be, actually, a fairly simple business. Some of our leaders began to fight back ... it was, and it remains a _loooooong_ uphill struggle and there has been much backsliding on the way, but I think we you the CF saw the one error of its ways. Of course, for every admiral and general who saw that _management_ was destroying both _leadership_ and the _military ethos_ there was another general or admiral who thought exactly the opposite. We were seeing, in our own senior ranks, what Evelyn Waugh described in the _Sword of Honour_ series of novels ( in _Officers and Gentleman_, I think, but it may have been _Men at Arms_ or _Unconditional Surrender_) as military men being, in reality, just "heavily armed civilians."
> 
> Several colossally bad decisions ~ including e.g. the formation of Air Command ~ date from that period.



The Royal Marines have an impressive PR machine and have produced a good range of videos to go along with their ad campaigns

https://www.youtube.com/user/RoyalMarinesOfficial

You could adapt this to just about any combat arms occupation, I would say. However, the Marines I've talked to say that this type of advertising (very warlike etc) can backfire and tends to represent how currently serving members would like to see themselves represented in the public eye as opposed to what the uninformed civvy wants to see. 

As a result, I understand that they have  a hard time filling their recruit training billets.


----------



## Haggis

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Someone, somewhere, here on Army.ca, was looking for this:
> 
> (Thanks to RAdm John Newton for the "find.")



That was me.  Thanks.


----------



## jollyjacktar

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> The Royal Marines have an impressive PR machine and have produced a good range of videos to go along with their ad campaigns
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/user/RoyalMarinesOfficial
> 
> You could adapt this to just about any combat arms occupation, I would say. However, the Marines I've talked to say that this type of advertising (very warlike etc) can backfire and tends to represent how currently serving members would like to see themselves represented in the public eye as opposed to what the uninformed civvy wants to see.
> 
> As a result, I understand that they have  a hard time filling their recruit training billets.



I guess Pussies need not apply.  I've seen their commercials and for me I find them the most attractive ones out there.


----------



## The Bread Guy

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> The Royal Marines have an impressive PR machine and have produced a good range of videos to go along with their ad campaigns
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/user/RoyalMarinesOfficial
> 
> You could adapt this to just about any combat arms occupation, I would say. However, the Marines I've talked to say that this type of advertising (very warlike etc) can backfire and tends to represent how currently serving members would like to see themselves represented in the public eye as opposed to what the uninformed civvy wants to see.
> 
> As a result, I understand that they have  a hard time filling their recruit training billets.


The Physicality video was particularly mesmerizing!  Thanks for sharing the link.


----------



## daftandbarmy

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> The Physicality video was particularly mesmerizing!  Thanks for sharing the link.



You're welcome.

|And, of course, it doesn't relate at all to what you actually do in a Commando unit. But oh well....


----------



## Coffee_psych

So I came across a few posters in the recruitment office in my hometown targeting women to join the army.  I thought the posters were tasteful and showed a good side of what the CF was trying to do. This article describes how they are trying to increase the number of women in the military from 16% to 25% in only 3 years.  One of the posters (in the article below) is of two women hugging, however some people decided that the posters were too "lesbian-y".  If you're a woman or a man who has many women in your life, you would know that women hugging is a very common thing.  Even gay women and straight women hug all the time. 

So I want to know, do you have a problem with this advertisement? Or do you think it fits in with other campaign material to get women to join the CF?

http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/the-canadian-military-worried-that-its-female-recruitment-campaign-got-a-little-too-lesbian-y


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## The Bread Guy

If it's been quoted correctly and in context***, when I read something like this ...


> ... "There was a concern that the photo implied a romantic relationship," reads the document. "It was suggested that a group shot would be more appropriate, but we felt that this would have less 'poster power,'" the ad agency writes. "Our recommendation is to stay with a photograph of two women, but have them pose in a way that clearly suggests nothing more than friendship." ...


... I think, "welcome to design by committee."

*** -- I notice the writer, like most doing these kind of "documents obtained by" stories, didn't share the document to let us judge.


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## SeaKingTacco

Part of the problem for me with that ad is that if you changed one element and made it a male and female soldier hugging, we would have an instant Operation Honour air strike called down upon the CF. 

Can't have both ways. You know- equal treatment and all.


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## Blackadder1916

Coffee_psych said:
			
		

> So I want to know, do you have a problem with this advertisement?
> 
> http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/the-canadian-military-worried-that-its-female-recruitment-campaign-got-a-little-too-lesbian-y



Well, it's been quite some time since I wore uniform so I may not be up to date with all the latest about wearing patches and stuff, but why is one of the women in the "poster" shown in the article an American soldier?  Or at least, why is she (if she is Canadian) wearing the SSI of the 1st Infantry Division on the right shoulder - as an American soldier would for previous wartime service?


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## RedcapCrusader

Vice is a rag.

Can't stand it.


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## dimsum

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Well, it's been quite some time since I wore uniform so I may not be up to date with all the latest about wearing patches and stuff, but why is one of the women in the "poster" shown in the article an American soldier?  Or at least, why is she (if she is Canadian) wearing the SSI of the 1st Infantry Division on the right shoulder - as an American soldier would for previous wartime service?



I'm betting that this is a pic of 2 US Army soldiers.  The one on the left has the US Army ACU-style pocket flaps, and the one on the right would have the Canada flag on her shoulder (under the hand of the soldier on the left).


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## Blackadder1916

Dimsum said:
			
		

> I'm betting that this is a pic of 2 US Army soldiers.  . . .



That's what I thought.  Probably typical that the ad agency just grabbed some stock images of women in uniform, but doesn't anyone at NDHQ notice these things.  This is discriminatory.  Aren't our "lesbian-y" women good enough?  I know outsourcing is in vogue, but this is ridiculous.


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## Oldgateboatdriver

It is also my experience that women tend to hug more than men for all sorts of reasons, both in the military and in civvie life. Men are not above some deportment: just think about a bunch of guys who have just won a hockey, soccer or other team sport tournament.

The only problem I have (other than using a US soldier picture  :facepalm with the poster is that the overall picture does not provide any context that let the viewer come to the conclusion that such hugging is warranted by the circumstances.


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## George Wallace

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> The only problem I have (other than using a US soldier picture  :facepalm with the poster ........




The Canadian media and public more often than not will pick any photo of military personnel or equipment to augment their 'statement'.  They are not in any way familiar with AFV or uniform recognition, so will most often pick a photo that they find first in their search, which quite often is an American publicity shot.  

Solution:  All MEDIA must take AFV and uniform Recognition Courses.     (We all know that will NEVER happen.)

 [


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## Haggis

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Solution:  All MEDIA must take AFV and uniform Recognition Courses.     (We all know that will NEVER happen.)
> 
> [



Let's get together to develop and market such a course to the media.  We'll call ourselves "experts".  That should work.


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## The Bread Guy

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> ... why is she (if she is Canadian) wearing the SSI of the 1st Infantry Division on the right shoulder - as an American soldier would for previous wartime service?


I noticed that, but (silly me) I figured someone would have called the ad agency on it during the "creative" process if it WAS an American soldier.

Then again, since the journalist didn't share the "obtained" documents, we can't tell if the agency WAS called on it or not.  :facepalm:


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## mariomike

^ 1st Infantry Division. The Big Red One.



			
				Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Men are not above some deportment: just think about a bunch of guys who have just won a hockey, soccer or other team sport tournament.



Hard to imagine Lee Marvin needing a Man-hug. He might give another guy a pat on the back.

"You're going to live, even if I have to blow your brains out."


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## Pusser

mariomike said:
			
		

> ^ 1st Infantry Division. The Big Red One.
> 
> Hard to imagine Lee Marvin needing a Man-hug. He might give another guy a pat on the back.



But Clint Eastwood would have taken a warm soapy shower with the right marine.


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## RedcapCrusader

I think we're need to take a page from the Scandinavians.

Two women wearing a military style uniform, hugging, does not show the strength and the success of women in the military. How does a hugging photo attract anyone to join, really?

I'll see if I can track it down, but the Norwegian Army had a fantastic recruiting campaign of "Modern Day Valkyrie" and "Modern Day Shield maiden" that were friggin' awesome. Women all geared up in fierce warrior poses.

A co-worker of mine was recently hired as a police officer, she would have never ventured that path (background in aeronautical engineering) had it not been for a poster she saw of a female Peel (?) Regional Tactical Officer. I showed her this poster and she said "that doesn't tell me anything about the job or the organization"


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## Jarnhamar

That picture is weak sauce. It's also not even Canadian Forces members in the picture.

If you want some glimpses of women in the Canadian Forces (or CF members just kicking ass) here's a good youtube video.  Hugging however is absent.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtU6y6xnxiA


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## DAA

Coffee_psych said:
			
		

> So I came across a few posters in the recruitment office in my hometown targeting women to join the army.  I thought the posters were tasteful and showed a good side of what the CF was trying to do. This article describes how they are trying to increase the number of women in the military from 16% to 25% in only 3 years.  One of the posters (in the article below) is of two women hugging, however some people decided that the posters were too "lesbian-y".  If you're a woman or a man who has many women in your life, you would know that women hugging is a very common thing.  Even gay women and straight women hug all the time.
> So I want to know, do you have a problem with this advertisement? Or do you think it fits in with other campaign material to get women to join the CF?
> http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/the-canadian-military-worried-that-its-female-recruitment-campaign-got-a-little-too-lesbian-y



First off that material is from 1-2 years ago and as mentioned already and as far as I can tell, the individuals pictured aren't wearing CAF Uniforms.  Not to mention, what does a picture like this really say about a career as a "working" member of the CAF?  I'm sure they could come up with something better.

Also keep in mind, that the CAF doesn't produce these marketing campaigns "in house".  They are put out to tender, so they tend to go to the lowest bidder from the private sector (ie; Civilian Marketing Agencies).  So you now have a civilian company creating a Marketing Campaign who has little if any knowledge and or experience about what it is to be a member of the CAF, let alone why anyone would want to join.  Sounds like a job for the FNP in the Agency to handle.     Campaign materials/proposals are returned back to the Department for review, so I'm sure people in uniform, along with civilian DND Marketing staff looked at this and many others.

It's difficult at best, if not impossible, to market a career in the CAF for women when you're faced with bad Press coverage created by bad applies in your organization and all organizations have bad apples.

Being a women and having a career in the CAF, merely makes you another valued member of the "team".

http://www.forces.ca/en/page/women-92


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## daftandbarmy

George Wallace said:
			
		

> The Canadian media and public more often than not will pick any photo of military personnel or equipment to augment their 'statement'.  They are not in any way familiar with AFV or uniform recognition, so will most often pick a photo that they find first in their search, which quite often is an American publicity shot.
> 
> Solution:  All MEDIA must take AFV and uniform Recognition Courses.     (We all know that will NEVER happen.)
> 
> [



This is how the USMC 'communicates' with some braver members of the media: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlwWO-MqlyA

I've seen the Royal Marines do similar 'acquaints', as they call them, with great success. They even got a couple of recruits out of it as some of the media folks realized that their true calling did not invovle shooting with a camera .


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## McG

http://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/a-change-in-command-canadian-military-taking-strides-with-gender-equality-1.3676483

News article suggests CAF is doing very well with gender equality and in getting women into leadership roles.


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## daftandbarmy

MCG said:
			
		

> http://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/a-change-in-command-canadian-military-taking-strides-with-gender-equality-1.3676483
> 
> News article suggests CAF is doing very well with gender equality and in getting women into leadership roles.



Except for the Infantry, of course. Based on my observations anyways.


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## Darkmachine

I personally think there needs to be a stronger marketing campaign for the Canadian Armed Forces - I'd say the general public, other than those who are avid military fans, or have had someone they know serve, or a family member, don't know exactly what occurs within the CAF and the amount of amazing opportunities with respect to work, not to mention there is nothing better than doing a job that serves the people, your country, etc. To be quite honest, I don't know when the last time was that I saw any form of marketing campaign or advertisement to entice others to join, or at the bare minimum investigate further into the opportunities. For me it's always been a passion of mine, and I love to serve, especially my country, and my people. Would be pretty cool if the CAF got some badass billboards made for the Gardiner Expressway - I'd much rather see that then the next Drake cd cover...but that's just me.


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