# Officers not clean shaven



## MattD (13 Aug 2005)

I was watching the rememberence of Smokey Smith and well I seen alot of officers I would suppose high ranking Officers that where not clean shaven. My understanding was that you always had to be clean shaven, so seeing this it has thrown a wrench so to speak into what i have always thought, so could someone explain why some officers are not clean shaven, or can anyone not be clean shaven what are the rules.


Thanks for the help in advance.

MattD


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## Trinity (13 Aug 2005)

Even after I shave... I look like hell an hour or two after.

My face hates me and doesn't want to grow until JUST AFTER I have to shave in the morning.

Who knows why you saw so many.  All i can say is...  its probably chance and nothing
to get too worked over about.  You're making a pretty broad statement about CF officers
in general over one incident which might simply have been a 5 o'clock shadow.

MAYBE, some of those officers worked overnight on duty before going to the funeral
for Smokey Smith... so they would have been pulling late hours to pay their respects.
In that case, kudos to those officers.

The rules, incidently, shave every day/morning unless you have a chit (army)
Navy.. someone else can talk about beards.. .not my arcs of fire.


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## the 48th regulator (13 Aug 2005)

Camera filters and lighting does hell to to people in front of the lense...

trust me.

dileas

tess


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## Roy Harding (13 Aug 2005)

MattD said:
			
		

> I was watching the rememberence of Smokey Smith and well I seen alot of officers I would suppose high ranking Officers that where not clean shaven. My understanding was that you always had to be clean shaven, so seeing this it has thrown a wrench so to speak into what i have always thought, so could someone explain why some officers are not clean shaven, or can anyone not be clean shaven what are the rules.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the help in advance.
> ...



Matt:

I do not have access to CBC Newschannel (or any other television channel for that matter) - so I cannot comment on what you may have seen.

However - I think that Trinity has giving some reasonable explanations (of course - that's his JOB, God bless him).

Not having seen what you describe, I can't offer my own perspective.

Having said that, I'll offer my own perspective:

Being of Jewish heritage (I'll explain my surname another time), I'm aware that Jews do not shave during the mourning period - is that a possible explanation??  I understand other religions may have similar restrictions - is it possible you saw a group of a certain religious bent?

Other than religious reasons, or perhaps for those reasons Trinity has brought forward, I cannot imagine a Canadian Forces Officer on parade unshaven.

As I said - I didn't see it, and I'm not doubting the veracity of your statements, I'm just wondering if there is an alternate explanation.


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## mikeninercharlie (13 Aug 2005)

I also watched the funeral service in it's entirety. I would suggest MattD saw a group of about 10 or 12 "elderly" Honorary Lt Cols / Colonels of 39 Bde units, many of them bearded, sitting in the sanctuary.  

On another note - what's up with the Vancouver Police Dept Sr NCO wearing a Kuwait Liberation medal along with his stand of Canadian medals?


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## Gunner (13 Aug 2005)

> On another note - what's up with the Vancouver Police Dept Sr NCO wearing a Kuwait Liberation medal along with his stand of Canadian medals?



Is your concern the location (ie to the right of the other medals) or the fact he was wearing it at all?


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## SHELLDRAKE!! (13 Aug 2005)

I do believe the Kuwait liberation medal is an unauthorized medal for wear since CF members were issued the Gulf war medal.


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## mikeninercharlie (13 Aug 2005)

Canadian Orders, Decorations and Medals - Precedence 

http://gg.ca/honours/ordprec_e.asp

7. The insignia of orders, decorations and medals not listed in this Directive, as well as foreign awards, the award of which has not been approved by the Government of Canada, shall not be mounted or worn in conjunction with orders, decorations and medals listed in this Directive. 

The Kuwait Liberation Medal is not on the list, that's why mine sits in the bottom of an old barracks box and is not mounted with the rest of my medals. 

Perhaps the VPD member is just unaware of regulations...


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## Gunner (13 Aug 2005)

> Question
> I served in the Gulf and Kuwait War. May I wear my Saudi Arabian medal as well as my Canadian Gulf and Kuwait Medal?
> 
> Answer
> Canada's national honours policy prohibits the wear of more than one medal for the same service. The only medal authorized for wear by Canadian Forces members involved in the Gulf War is the Canadian Gulf and Kuwait Medal. The Saudi Arabian Kuwait Liberation Medal may be accepted, but not worn (SEE "I received a foreign award. May I wear it on my uniform?").



Source:

http://www.dnd.ca/hr/dhh/engraph/faqs_e.asp?category=honawa&FaqID=26#answer

Picture of the Kuwait Liberation Medal:

http://www.worldhistory.com/wiki/K/Kuwait-Liberation-Medal.htm


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## 54/102 CEF (13 Aug 2005)

MattD said:
			
		

> I was watching the rememberence of Smokey Smith and well I seen alot of officers I would suppose high ranking Officers that where not clean shaven. ...........
> Thanks for the help in advance.
> 
> MattD



You probably saw many members of the NAVY - and there were many there.


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## axeman (13 Aug 2005)

not really there was about 20 or so off the Ottowa  and a few  other mixed and matched for around the CF. there was way more green then navy blue


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## 54/102 CEF (14 Aug 2005)

axeman said:
			
		

> not really there was about 20 or so off the Ottowa   and a few   other mixed and matched for around the CF. there was way more green then navy blue



I was referring to the service in Ottawa - not sure he said Vancouver at the start


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## EW (14 Aug 2005)

SHELLDRAKE!! said:
			
		

> I do believe the Kuwait liberation medal is an unauthorized medal for wear since CF members were issued the Gulf war medal.



I always thought the same, but I recently saw a Canadian General officer wearing the medal, and his bio page on the internet shows him wearing the ribbon ... hmmmm ... 

http://www.forces.gc.ca/dsa/app_bio/engraph/FSeniorOfficerBiographyView_e.asp?SectChoice=1&mAction=View&mBiographyID=111


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## Roy Harding (14 Aug 2005)

EW said:
			
		

> I always thought the same, but I recently saw a Canadian General officer wearing the medal, and his bio page on the internet shows him wearing the ribbon ... hmmmm ...
> 
> http://www.forces.gc.ca/dsa/app_bio/engraph/FSeniorOfficerBiographyView_e.asp?SectChoice=1&mAction=View&mBiographyID=111



There are many possible explanations.  It is entirely possible that the officer in question had been on an exchange tour with the US, British, or other allied forces during the action in question.  I'm not saying this particular officer was - just that it's one of many scenarios which would entitle him to this particular medal.


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## Britney Spears (14 Aug 2005)

What about prior service IN the US/UK armed forces?


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## Roy Harding (14 Aug 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> What about prior service IN the US/UK armed forces?





			
				Roy Harding said:
			
		

> ... - just that it's one of many scenarios which would entitle him to this particular medal.



Another excellent explanation - and there are many.  

It is always a foolish thing to "assume" things, or don't we teach the old "when you assume, you make an ass out of u and me" anymore?


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## Dragoon19 (14 Aug 2005)

I wear my Northern Ireland and UN Cyprus medals that I received when I was in the British Army, However I have to wear the NI medal after ALL other decorations that I have.

The Cyprus medal is however worn in the normal postion as it is recognised as a regular medal, lastly if I had a British Long Service and Good Conduct(LS&GC)  medal I would not be allowed to wear the CD that I have,  as quite correctly stated you cannot wear two medals for the same thing.


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## MattD (14 Aug 2005)

I did not mean disrespect to any officers, and sorry to say these where not no 5 o'clock shadows as i orginally thought that myself, the religion idea seems to be the best bet, but i did some research on this and i found some other officers (generals) that are not shaven so i guess Generals can opt out of it if they want. If no one believes me just look at the bio's on the Armies web page.


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## FormerHorseGuard (14 Aug 2005)

there are med conditions you can have that  allow you not to shave, but has to be a neat trimmed beard, one of my office co -workers hada  skin condition and last time I sw him  now a captain he has the same beard ...
i think the officers you saw were the Honorary COL and LCol of the Regiment at the right of the altar.  they do not wear the uniform often and they get away  with a few things  as in service soldiers and officers would not get away.

Sailor dress regs i do not know, but they can wear beards at sea. 
so many reasons for the beards but it was nice to see the great turnout for the parade, jsut wsh cbc had shown more of it


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## NCRCrow (14 Aug 2005)

beards in the navy..are practically extinct


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## Roy Harding (14 Aug 2005)

NCRCrow said:
			
		

> beards in the navy..are practically extinct



No kidding!!

I always thought that was one of the prized Naval traditions.

Any serving sailors out there care to comment?


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## Ex-Dragoon (14 Aug 2005)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> No kidding!!
> 
> I always thought that was one of the prized Naval traditions.
> 
> Any serving sailors out there care to comment?



Most of us already have to one desgree or another. 

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/30126.0.html

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/29581.0.html


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## Docherty (14 Aug 2005)

The reason why they looked like they didn't shave was probly because they bused in from Edmonton.


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## NCRCrow (14 Aug 2005)

just did the NFFT @ Kootney. 

NO FIT TEST--No training which means --NO BEARD.--the Ship I am on, has a no beard policy


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## Acorn (14 Aug 2005)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> There are many possible explanations.   It is entirely possible that the officer in question had been on an exchange tour with the US, British, or other allied forces during the action in question.   I'm not saying this particular officer was - just that it's one of many scenarios which would entitle him to this particular medal.



His bio indicates that he was CO of the comm sqn for CATGME in Doha, and he has the Gulf and Kuwait ribbon.


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## Blakey (14 Aug 2005)

> His bio indicates that he was CO of the comm sqn for CATGME in Doha, and he has the Gulf and Kuwait ribbon.


I had noticed that as well Acorn, myself being there with Op Scimitar/Friction and having been awarded the Gulf & Kuwait medal, was wondering what entitled him to the two medals?. I acknowledge that our unit (3 RCR M Coy) left before the commencement of hostilities, thus we were not entitled to the bar with the medal. I saw now leaf on his medal.....I too am bewildered as to why he has both medals.


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## combat_medic (15 Aug 2005)

Well, considering that the people involved in the funeral arrangements have been working 12-20 hour days for the past 2 weeks, and many people were on vigil all night the night previous, or arrived at around 05-0600 that morning, I can understand a little 5 o'clock shadow. 

Not to mention, I saw most of the generals and dignitaries up close, and they all looked reasonably shaven to me. 

All that aside, how did the ceremonies look on television?


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## S McKee (21 Aug 2005)

Blakey said:
			
		

> I had noticed that as well Acorn, myself being there with Op Scimitar/Friction and having been awarded the Gulf & Kuwait medal, was wondering what entitled him to the two medals?. I acknowledge that our unit (3 RCR M Coy) left before the commencement of hostilities, thus we were not entitled to the bar with the medal. I saw now leaf on his medal.....I too am bewildered as to why he has both medals.



Well I don't want to slam officers or anything but I fine some of them play a little loose with the dress regs when they get up in rank. After all who is going to dress down a BGen. I have seen the odd senior officer in my time sporting foreign jump wings on their DEU when they were not entitled to i.e. not posted to a foreign unit.


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## Gunner (21 Aug 2005)

> After all who is going to dress down a BGen.



Gen Dechastelain was well known for dressing down general officers who were improperly dressed (particularly backwards crossed swords on their tunic..)


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## Gunnerlove (22 Aug 2005)

My first timing the morning of the service in Vancouver was 4am, and I was at the service or the Seaforth armoury until 4pm so I like most had a decent shadow going.


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## FormerHorseGuard (23 Aug 2005)

"I have seen the odd senior officer in my time sporting foreign jump wings on their DEU when they were not entitled to i.e. not posted to a foreign unit." i had a sgt major who worn US jump wings, on his DEU i asked him why  he could wear them, he explained he could wear them because they are not a medal but a course or training qual not a decoration.


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## S McKee (23 Aug 2005)

He is not entitled to wear them, if he has a similar qualification in the CF and a badge exists. I don't have them in front of me right, now but it's in the dress regs, I have US wings and was checking into it a while back.


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## Haggis (23 Aug 2005)

Jumper said:
			
		

> He is not entitled to wear them, if he has a similar qualification in the CF and a badge exists. I don't have them in front of me right, now but it's in the dress regs, I have US wings and was checking into it a while back.



Here it is:  from A-AD-265-000/AG-001 the CF Dress Manual (Ch 3, Section 3)

"6. Personnel who have been presented equivalent badges of allied countries as a result of qualifications obtained on a course prescribed by
the CF, shall wear the applicable CF badge in the manner detailed herein. Where an equivalent CF badge has not been designed or approved for wear, the foreign flying or specialist skill badge presented shall only be worn in accordance with the policy detailed in paragraphs 14. to 16.

14. Personnel who have been presented equivalent badges of allied countries as a result of qualifications obtained on a course prescribed by the
CF, shall wear the applicable CF badge according to wear instructions in paragraphs 7. and 8. and Annex B.

15. Where an equivalent CF badge has not been designed or approved for wear, the allied country badge presented for the prescribed qualification shall be worn like a CF badge according to wear instructions In paragraphs 7. and 8. and Annex B. If wearing both a CF badge and a foreign badge, the CF badge shall take precedence. The following prescribed foreign qualification badges are authorized for wear on the CF uniform:

a. United States Army Ranger Badge (a sleeve badge); and

b. United States Army Special Forces Badge (a sleeve badge).

16. Personnel who have been presented equivalent badges of allied countries as a result of qualifications obtained on a course prescribed by the
CF, and those who have been presented honorary qualification badges while attached to, or serving with the armed forces of an allied country, may wear the appropriate metal or cloth badge, on the right breast of the service dress and mess dress jacket only while on duty in the specific allied country, when subsequently working with the armed forces of the country or when attending a formal function sponsored by the country concerned."


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## reccecrewman (2 Sep 2005)

As stated earlier, there's always the chance they had medical chits...................


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