# Living Quarters



## THEONE (24 Nov 2007)

The Army does it again.  Accommodations need to change and fast.  This whole living 8 people per room just doesn't cut it.  Most units are pushing for the troops to get better accommodations(My thanks to them), but there just isn't enough room for everyone.  So they place all the stragglers 8 per room and forget about them.  they keep adding more units and bringing in more people but fail to build new buildings for these people to stay in.  So because of this the rest of us coming in have to stay in rooms filled with 8 people and only 4 lockers.  And when we are expected to have all our kit with us there is no longer room for proper living.  Don't get me wrong.  This kind of living is ok when staying for a short while.  But we are there for almost a year and its just too much.  And something needs to be done about it.


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## navymich (24 Nov 2007)

THEONE said:
			
		

> The Army does it again.  Accommodations need to change and fast.  This whole living 8 people per room just doesn't cut it.  Most units are pushing for the troops to get better accommodations(My thanks to them), but there just isn't enough room for everyone.  So they place all the stragglers 8 per room and forget about them.  they keep adding more units and bringing in more people but fail to build new buildings for these people to stay in.  So because of this the rest of us coming in have to stay in rooms filled with 8 people and only 4 lockers.  And when we are expected to have all our kit with us there is no longer room for proper living.  Don't get me wrong.  This kind of living is ok when staying for a short while.  But we are there for almost a year and its just too much.  And something needs to be done about it.



I guess that's one way to look at it.  Or you can look at the fact that at least you're not living in a tent in the field, or living 30-60 in a mess on a ship where the only place you have to store something is a small locker.  You have a roof over your head, clothes on your back and money put into your bank twice a month.  Even if they started building new accommodations tomorrow, the problem won't be solved right away.  I doubt it's gone unnoticed by the higher ups, but right now, at least you have accommodations.


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## THEONE (24 Nov 2007)

Yeah.  I understand that at least we don't live in a tent.  But when we are in a tent there is always room for all your things.  I also know that they can't just do something overnight and I acknowledge the fact that some units are doing there best to solve the problem.  I just think a better effort can be given by some people.  There are some groups there that have to be there for a year and a half and they are being moved into there 3rd location.  And considering most people that are on base live 1 to 2 people per room, there is no reason that we should be 8 per room.


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## George Wallace (24 Nov 2007)

You're on Course.........Right?


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## brihard (1 Dec 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> You're on Course.........Right?



I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say he's up in Pet living in L101. He mentioned in another post that's he's a reservist training for Afghanistan.
Right now we're at a minimum of 5 to a room, and that's increasing in the next few days to 6, 7, or even 8 as all the MCpls have been bumped out of their shacks and into ours. These are typical 4 man rooms with 4 lockers, but they've doubled up with bunk beds.

I know, I know, we have a roof over our heads and all that. It still sucks though. We haven't got much at all in the way of room for our kit as is, and with more people coming in now and then a few hundred more yet again in January AND more kit to be issued, it's just getting worse. We're living there until August, too.

Does anyone have an idea of the general accommodations situation in Petawawa? Are accommodations genuinely that short, or are we catching the short end of some stick on this? Our chain of command are working to see if anything can be done, but it's not looking good.

Again, not looking for pity here. I just want to know if living like this for a full year is normal enough to be dismissed with a simple 'suck it up', or if there's something else that ought to be happening with regards to the several hundred of us in this position?


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## aesop081 (1 Dec 2007)

And what would be your solution ?


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## Roy Harding (1 Dec 2007)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say he's up in Pet living in L101. He mentioned in another post that's he's a reservist training for Afghanistan.
> Right now we're at a minimum of 5 to a room, and that's increasing in the next few days to 6, 7, or even 8 as all the MCpls have been bumped out of their shacks and into ours. These are typical 4 man rooms with 4 lockers, but they've doubled up with bunk beds.
> 
> I know, I know, we have a roof over our heads and all that. It still sucks though. We haven't got much at all in the way of room for our kit as is, and with more people coming in now and then a few hundred more yet again in January AND more kit to be issued, it's just getting worse. We're living there until August, too.
> ...



I don't think you're looking for pity.  

Living like that is NOT normal in today's Army - but not so long ago it was the norm.  Although I don't want to be the one to say it, "Suck it up" may be the most appropriate response.

Look at it this way - 25 years from now (when *you *are *me*), it'll be the source of many lively stories, and perhaps (as in my case) the origin of a lifelong friendship or two - you never know.


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## kratz (1 Dec 2007)

This past summer, I had a course to instruct in Gageotwn. Things were approved so fast, I was paying for my accomodations out of pocket, until my claim caught things up. During this experience, I was paying less than $7 a day for a Cpl/MCpl, 4 person room with shared facilities. I was stunned that the week cost me so little. Go find a hotel room for five days and pay the same amount. Yes, there are some minor problems and valid complaints with the shacks, but on the whole I can not fault them for short term accomodations.


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## brihard (2 Dec 2007)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> And what would be your solution ?



I don't know the system well enough to offer any that would be worth the time it would take you to read.


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## George Wallace (2 Dec 2007)

Well Brihard, just for your information; in 1998 they tore down 90 odd buildings at CFB Petawawa and were tearing down more the next year.  Some of those buildings were Qtrs.  Many will remember O-19 behind the Canex, which was one of them.  The Grenade Club, the Arty Shack and a Mess Hall were torn down around the Arty Pde Sq.  A Mess hall was torn down at Nicklin Pde Sq, and another Mess, F-15, was torn down at the Worthington Pde Sq.  Two Single Snr NCO Qtrs were torn down at the Airborne Snr NCO Mess.  All the facilities on the Mattawa Plain Cadet Camp were leveled.   The Airborne hangars in the Z Lines were torn down. 

So, yes there is a shortage of facilities in Pet.


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## geo (2 Dec 2007)

I think that yuou will find that all our bases suffer from the same problem.
Old buildings were run into the ground - no money spent to maintain them... there wasn't any available - remember that when the CF shrank down in size, we didn't close down any bases... we just lived with facilities half full.  Now the CF is scrambling to rebuild it's strength at a time when the money is going into beans & bullets ... and we still don't have money going into facilities. 
We have great plans for bases in the great white north while those that already exist, are showing their age.... 

Is there a solution?.... not on the short term... for the immediate moment, I'd say it's going to be... suck it up.

Then again, I remember using the old H huts in Aldershot, Valcartier, Farnham, ETC.... 1 room & 30 guys...

Good friends indeed!


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## brihard (2 Dec 2007)

OK, fair enough, thanks for the info. Guess it's just gonna suck for the foreseeable future.


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## THEONE (23 Mar 2009)

Alright, 2 years later but here it goes.

No.  I wasn't on course.  I was posted there for workup training.  And as much as people think that I should be happy with the fact that I have a roof over my head, I am not.  When I see 2 soldiers living in quarters the same size as I have 8 then I know something is wrong.  Two things can be done about it.

1.  Start using the empty rooms to place soldiers in them.
2.  Build a proper barracks for incoming pers that will be posted there.  Something like L101 but much bigger.

There is tons of room on base to build such a place and someone needs to get it done.

I know you can't get a hotel room for 7$ a night but hostels come pretty close and they are usually in better shape then this place.  Its one thing to kick us out of a building because they have officers coming.  But its a totaly different thing to stick 8 guys in a room and tell us that you will be taking out the appliances cause they are better off with officers then the troops.

Either way.  If you build a room for 4, keep it for 4.  If the whole base is being rebuilt for 2 per room, then someone should take a walk around and look how much space is being wasted.  Either way.  Someone could make some serious cash building a nice appartment complexe just off base.

PS.  My solution is simple.  Stop making people sleep more in a room then you need too.  If the base has empty shacks then use them.  Or build proper shacks.  With very little money you could build a new building and make your money's work in very little time for the number of troops on base.  If anyone has a better idea I am more then happy to hear it.


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## chrisf (23 Mar 2009)

After 5 months living in T-100 (The old elementary school in Shilo) anything is better....

[Edit: After thinking about it, T-100 was probably better than 8 in a room. Even with it's shower and laundry trailers out back, and porta-potties on the lawn to augment our lack of toilets]


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## THEONE (24 Mar 2009)

haha.  Good point.  I was actually thinking.  If I had to do it again, that I would bring a trailer and do the whole camping thing on base.  I know pet has a spot.  All bases should have that available.  You would have your own personal quarters with shower without worrying about inspections or any of the other bull that comes with shacks.


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## armyvern (24 Mar 2009)

THEONE said:
			
		

> Alright, 2 years later but here it goes.
> 
> No.  I wasn't on course.  I was posted there for workup training.  And as much as people think that I should be happy with the fact that I have a roof over my head, I am not.  When I see 2 soldiers living in quarters the same size as I have 8 then I know something is wrong.  Two things can be done about it.
> 
> ...



Simple; yeah, ri-ight.  :

It's called capital expenditure projects. Money doesn't grow on trees. You want more shacks, then the government must give us new money. We do have a war to fight right now after all.

Be thankful you were in Pet for your work-up trg and not here in Gagetown for TF1-07. Go ahead - search the forum for the threads on that. While you're there, search the threads for "MND makes announcement in XXX" ...

Do you have any idea at all how long it takes to award contracts on major construction for federal departments (let alone the DND/CF)??

Apparently not. Don't like the lack of facilities and accomodations available on bases right now?? Then I suggest you remember exactly what Party's government of the day starved us to death in the late 80s/early 90s and put us into this predicament the next time an election comes around (that Party tends to mae a habit out of things like this when they are elected to form the government). It only takes the feds one budget to kill us in the CF - it takes the CF a generation (and a war!) to recover from it; YOU happen to be part of that generation.


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## THEONE (25 Mar 2009)

Well arent you a sac full of happiness.  Just so you know.  I did my research and I've seen what they do.  And there is nothing to be thankfull for.  I'm glad you agree that some people should be allowed to live 2 per 4 man room and it only comes at the cost of having 8 in 4 man rooms.  Its not a complicated thing that I was talking about.  There is tons of space and contracts are already going for reconstruction.  Unfortunately they have decided to make less space with the stuff they have.  I'm curently overseas at the moment and the accommodations here are ten times better then back home.  Hell.  My last tour I lived in a tent and it was better.  Its not complicated to do.  Just takes someone to take action.  And the people at the top in charge obviously have a different plan.  So next time you post a hate message, please make sure you are in the right spot.  I understand things are bad elsewhere, but the point was to fix one problem.  Please stick to that when posting here.


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## armyvern (25 Mar 2009)

THEONE said:
			
		

> Well arent you a sac full of happiness.  Just so you know.  I did my research and I've seen what they do.  And there is nothing to be thankfull for.  I'm glad you agree that some people should be allowed to live 2 per 4 man room and it only comes at the cost of having 8 in 4 man rooms.  Its not a complicated thing that I was talking about.  There is tons of space and contracts are already going for reconstruction.  Unfortunately they have decided to make less space with the stuff they have.  I'm curently overseas at the moment and the accommodations here are ten times better then back home.  Hell.  My last tour I lived in a tent and it was better.  Its not complicated to do.  Just takes someone to take action.  And the people at the top in charge obviously have a different plan.  So next time you post a hate message, please make sure you are in the right spot.  I understand things are bad elsewhere, but the point was to fix one problem.  Please stick to that when posting here.



Next time I post a hate message? That's the stupidest thing I've heard today. Apparently you don't like it if someone disagrees with you.

I did keep on topic and that is money. Or is that something you just can't accept and would typically like to blame it on the CoC and 'those at the top' when they have absolutely SFA to do with the situation that got the CF into this predicament in the first place? That'd be budget cuts by a Big L government. Don't let the facts stand in your way though.

Funny too, I know guys in the shacks in Pet (and everywhere else too) and they don't seem to see all these empty rooms that you do.


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## George Wallace (25 Mar 2009)

Actually Vern, I think he is on meds and figures that somewhere in the system there is a Gandalf who with a quick flick of his wrist and majic wand, and poof! ..... there is a new Shack with private rooms for thousands.


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## fbr2o75 (25 Mar 2009)

Next time I post a hate message? That's the stupidest thing I've heard today



Hmmmmmm, I think there is a thread going that you could have put his response in  ;D


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## GAP (25 Mar 2009)

> Next time I post a hate message? That's the stupidest thing I've heard today



I have this vision of someone laying on their back, legs and arms waving in the air as they blubber about Vern's Hate Message.....time to slap their butt and send him/her back to their room....


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## CountDC (26 Mar 2009)

THEONE said:
			
		

> PS.  My solution is simple.  Stop making people sleep more in a room then you need too.  If the base has empty shacks then use them.  Or build proper shacks.  With very little money you could build a new building and make your money's work in very little time for the number of troops on base.  If anyone has a better idea I am more then happy to hear it.



or perhaps not so simple.  Are those shacks empty for a reason such as condemned?  Building shacks require funding. Getting funding can take a long time, especially if you have just destroyed a bunch of shacks.  Not an easy sell - sir we just destroyed some shacks and now would like to build new ones to house the extra soldiers we have a temporary requirement for. hmmmmm. I am sure the base does not get new building funds in its yearly budget without having jumped through hoops first. You also have consider the maintenance of the buildings once completed.

I remember at one point they wanted to tear down one of the condemned huts in Aldershot and build a new one. They were told no, there was no money budgeted for building a new place but there was lots in the budget for maintenance and renovation.  Solution was - remove entire building except the corner posts thus the project was now maintenance and renovation.


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## Armymedic (27 Mar 2009)

This housing issue is a CF issue, anywhere troops are training and are housed away from home; Pet, Borden, Edmonton, Gagetown....

Every base need more room for accm. And no, putting people 8 in a 4 person room is the way to go. It is wrong, and we should not put up with it.

Tear out those offices they built in old barracks and convert them back, and cram office space, not people.

Get those ATCO trailers, get those ISOs, we can put up a camp in 2-4 weeks in theater, there has got to be a way to do it.

These are our troops. We are the CF, there should not be any "no we can't"

There is no excuse for hundreds of soldiers having to live worse in Canada than they do when on deployment.


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## Lil_T (27 Mar 2009)

I remember hearing alllll about this issue back when the husband was in Pet for the work up training.  I guess he was fortunate that he was 2 to a single.  Yes, everyone was piled in there - people were living off the base in hotels too.  Such is life when the bases lack accomodation.  It's not pleasant - but nobody died from it.  

I could copy and paste the emails he sends me about the current accomodation situation he and others are dealing with and the military vs civiliian relationship - if you want to call it that.  I'm not going to - not that he's bitching - just venting about the ridiculousness of the situation.  

The contracting process with the Feds takes eons... that 18 million dollar recapitalization project has been in the works for years and some of the homes are just now being completed (actually saw a picture of my old PMQ back in Shearwater as part of the project).  Yes, camps can be set up and broken down in a short amount of time, but they're not necessarily meant to be permanent quarters.  

All we can do is wait.... and hope we don't get another Liberal government.


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## aesop081 (27 Mar 2009)

8 guys to a room ?

waahaa.......waahaa......here comes the waahaambulance........

We lived 8 to a room in the H lines in Gagetown back in the mid-90s too......everytime we went to gagetown from Pet. Get over it.


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## Nfld Sapper (27 Mar 2009)




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## Nfld Sapper (27 Mar 2009)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> 8 guys to a room ?
> 
> waahaa.......waahaa......here comes the waahaambulance........
> 
> We lived 8 to a room in the H lines in Gagetown back in the mid-90s too......everytime we went to gagetown from Pet. Get over it.



or the 25 to a room in the H-Huts in Chiliwack


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## Lil_T (27 Mar 2009)

.... and this one time at band camp.  :


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## Jarnhamar (27 Mar 2009)

Petawawa keeps taking on more and more pers but doesn't seem to be making more room for them. Seems dumb to me.

If we're sending guys and girls out to Afghanistan for 6 to 9 months the least the CF can do is *attempt* to do better than 9 people to a tiny room for 6 months to a year before hand.


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## THEONE (27 Mar 2009)

haha.  Now this has gone out of hand.  I don't get upset with people who disagree with me in any way.  I just put this post up so people could talk about solutions.  Not put them down.  Like I said.  I have done my research and anyone with half a brain could have organized that base without spending a penny.  The problem is that they spent money to make the shacks smaller.  Wich makes no sense.  And thanks for the nice pic NFLD Sapper.  It has nothing to do with the fact that its 8 in a room.  I have lived in worse but was treated better.  The whole point of the 8 in a room as much as the rest of the base had empty rooms the whole time we were there.  And yes.  They are empty cause there was no one to take them.  Like I said.  I don't mind being in a crowded room if there is no choice.  I do have to admit that I love the fact that I put this whole thing up to see if anyone could come up with solutions(wich was good in the begginning), but somehow ended up finding some people who have nothing better to do then just say suck it up.  Glad this world doesn't look to them to grow.  Otherwise we'd be screwed.  lol


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## Armymedic (27 Mar 2009)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> We lived 8 to a room in the H lines in Gagetown back in the mid-90s too......everytime we went to gagetown from Pet. Get over it.



There is a slight difference in context when you do it for a month compared to living that way for a year.

How would you feel if tomorrow you have 10 new roommates in your house for the next year?


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## Fishbone Jones (27 Mar 2009)

> I do have to admit that I love the fact that I put this whole thing up to see if anyone could come up with solutions(wich was good in the begginning), but somehow ended up finding some people who have nothing better to do then just say suck it up.  Glad this world doesn't look to them to grow.  Otherwise we'd be screwed.  lol



Welcome to the internet, you don't get to dictate peoples opininions or what they can say.


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## 40below (27 Mar 2009)

Rules for deployment #18: Invite at least 185 people you don't really like because of their strange hygiene habits to come and visit for a couple of months. Exchange clothes with them.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x487981


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## CountDC (27 Mar 2009)

SFB said:
			
		

> This housing issue is a CF issue, anywhere troops are training and are housed away from home; Pet, Borden, Edmonton, Gagetown....
> 
> Every base need more room for accm. And no, putting people 8 in a 4 person room is the way to go. It is wrong, and we should not put up with it.
> 
> ...



The CF does not get to put up a building simply because we want to - same as we do not get to build a ship simply because we want to. There is a long process to go through and priorities are set - often a lot of the process is outside of our control. 

Cram offices?  Where are you at?  every office I have ever seen is crammed. On top of that you are now talking about renovating a building which brings us back to funding which again is a long process to have approved for a major project.  

Here's' a tip - contact your local CE section and ask them how much funding they have available for new construction or building renovations. When they are either done laughing or cursing (if they don't hang up) then ask them how long it will take to get funding to accomplish what you are talking about.  

What you are talking about is not cheap. Here is an example of a CE work order that was carried out when I worked there in charge of the time keeping section:

John (name changed to protect the guilty) decided he didn't like to use his muscles to open the door that stuck a little bit so he called CE to fix it.  A month later CE dutifully dispatched a carpenter to deal with the door.  John was made happy and we paid $300 to have a hand planer run across the top of the door 3 times so he didn't have to use his muscles.  Now imagine how much it will cost to renovate 2 buildings - the shack you want to convert back and the one they will have to renovate to cram even more office space into.

You are right there is no excuse - but there is a reason - it is not the military that gets to decide on big ticket items - the government does and they do not move fast. I do not see them funding buildings for what is supposed to be a temporary situation.

Now your idea on trailers may be a good choice. Perhaps there is the option of leasing some to place in the camp as temp accommodations.  Why not do the home work on it and submit your plan through the chain? Maybe you can be the solution. I will even give you a start - do a cost comparison of long term leasing and new construction.  Make sure to include the cost of blue rockets if needed for the trailers.  Again check with CE - they may already have the info available as it could be something they have already looked into.


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## Armymedic (27 Mar 2009)

DC,
Been in long enough to be aware of how CE works, and funding. That in in itself is an area of improvement. 10 years from need to built can no longer acceptable. Talk to the guys at 2 CMBG HQ and Sigs in Petawawa, for instance. Its good the hear the MND finally talking about infrastructure again. We are on the right path. We need to demand more.

I am in Borden where they took 2 (that I know of) barrack blocks and converted them into spacious offices.

The issue with office space is that everyone now needs a computer, which requires a desk, which requires..... and so on and so on. Great plan 10 years ago to convert barrack to office when there was no flood of courses to train, no force generation. Now it is biting people in the butt.


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## CountDC (27 Mar 2009)

Oh man - lots of people spend their entire career without understanding anything about CE or funding. Can't even recall the number of times I heard why don't you guys (CE) just do this or that like we had free reign to spend money as we pleased. Then there were the fin wiz wannna be that couldn't understand why we couldn't just transfer x dollars from fund A to fund B so they could do what they wanted.

10 years was a long time and thank god they improved that.

Ok - you got to help me on the spacious office as I have never seen one. I am assuming you are not referring to the lovely cubicles we have here or the small office I had in the past but actual spacious offices that will hold my desk, file cabinets (all 4 that yes are needed) 2 computers (1 regular and 1 secret) plus room for 4 seated guests - let's make it easier - do they have the space of 2 full size cubicles?  Anything less is really not spacious for an office and even that falls on the low end. The CF tends to just meet the minimum space required per person for cubicle space.

hmmm - as I remember it even before computers everyone required a desk, which required office space, and so on. I also remember before computers I actually had more office space than my cubicle with computer gives me.

I like that you say *we need to demand more * - does this mean you will do as I suggested and submit your plan through the chain of command? I really hope you do as it sounds like you would be able to produce a verily sound document that could produce some results.


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## Armymedic (27 Mar 2009)

DC, I wish I could. For now, I am just another student on the ATL, not exactly in a position to affect change.


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## aesop081 (27 Mar 2009)

SFB said:
			
		

> How would you feel if tomorrow you have 10 new roommates in your house for the next year?



Thanks but i dont have to. I do, however, know what its like to live in close quarters for a long time with large groups of people. Its not like i joined the military yesterday.


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## George Wallace (27 Mar 2009)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> ..........I do, however, know what its like to live in close quarters for a lang time with large groups of people. Its not like i joined the military yesterday.



 ;D  Unfortunately, it seems that the new generation hasn't caught on to that yet.


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## Jarnhamar (27 Mar 2009)

SFB said:
			
		

> There is a slight difference in context when you do it for a month compared to living that way for a year.



Well said.

It's not just for privates getting boned for rooms.
In 2003 myself and another corporal were 2 people living in a room designated single occupant for 6 months work up training. We were crammed for space, had to keep stuff in my car.
Fast forward 2008 theres *4 SNCO's * in the very same rooms.

IT seems like the shacks keep getting renovated to provide better quality of life for the soldiers (ie making a 2 person room a 1 person room with more space) which in theory is a good thing, only now we just end up cramming even MORE into the rooms.

The process to get shit built does take too long-story of the Canadian Forces.

I wonder where we would be if 10 years ago everyone just said suck it up, your green combat jean jacket, body armor and helmet work fine.


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## aesop081 (27 Mar 2009)

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> I wonder where we would be if 10 years ago everyone just said suck it up, your green combat jean jacket, body armor and helmet work fine.



We would be in the same place we are today with people being unsatisfied with the solution that came along.


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## Jarnhamar (28 Mar 2009)

People may bitch and complain but the equipment and level of protection is better.


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## Armymedic (28 Mar 2009)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Its not like i joined the military yesterday.



Then you have never bitched about anything you found wrong or stupid in your entire military career either.



			
				CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Thanks but i dont have to.



Hallmark statement of the new "F*ck you, I am ok" attitude.


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## THEONE (28 Mar 2009)

Good point.  Our accommodations might be junk.  But our equipment is changing for the better.  No matter what we get in life we will always complain about it.  thats just the nature of the beast.  Although I have to admit that we have more armor on our soldiers then our vehicles did 8 years ago.  So no complaints there.


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## aesop081 (28 Mar 2009)

SFB said:
			
		

> Hallmark statement of the new "F*ck you, I am ok" attitude.



Was mearly saying that i dont have to imagine whats its like as i have lived it. But thanks for assuming that i'm an inconsiderate ass.........


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