# Mickey Mouse Boots or Mukluks?



## Matt_Fisher (11 Oct 2004)

I'm going to be doing the NATO 'Battle Griffin' Ex. in Norway this winter and am starting to assemble my cold weather ops. kit list.

It's been quite some time since I did some serious winter warfare stuff, as the last time I was in similar conditions was in Wainwright Nov-Dec. of '96.   I wasn't ever overly impressed with the CF winter kit, save the mukluks and the snot pads on the mittens.   The parka was too bulky and I never found it to be all that warm.   I did like the winter whites and the ruck cover.   The bindings on the snowshoes were the pinnacle of 1950s technology and were sorely lacking updating with newer straps and buckles as can be found on most commercial snowshoe bindings.   

I'll be getting my winter issue of Marine Corps cold weather kit over the next month or so.   I'm planning on getting a pair of mitts and a windproof balaclava from Outdoor Research, who make some cat's arse gear, so I'm covered in most areas, with the exception of footwear.

The US Extreme Cold Weather Boot is the rubber "Mickey Mouse" boot that is essentially a layer of felt sandwiched in rubber.   From all accounts your feet get pretty sweaty in it pretty quickly, and if you don't change your socks very frequently you stand a very good chance of getting trenchfoot if worn for long periods (such as I will be doing during Battle Griffin).

The mukluks being uncoated fabric and wool liners breath far better and seem to avoid the trenchfoot issue.   However, if you step in water with the CF mukluks and your feet get wet, then you could be in a world of hurt when your mukluks freeze solid.

I know that the CFs are currently looking to replace the mukluks with a new extreme cold weather boot, but for the timebeing, I'm debating getting a pair of mukluks to take in addition to my Mickey Mouses.

Anyone on the board ever use both the Mickey Mouse boots and mukluks and can put forth some feedback as to which works better?


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## Britney Spears (11 Oct 2004)

<a href=http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/doubleP.htm>This</a>  fellow seems to think well of the mukluks,  and not so well of the US issued stuff. Mind you, he would also like you to wear a skirted parka and a string undershirt.


I preferr the Ugg boot myself


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## Fishbone Jones (11 Oct 2004)

Oh oh! ;D Alert, alert


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## Roger (11 Oct 2004)

The Canadian Armed Forces had a similar boot up until the late 70's. Same problem, feet got wet just from sweating and when you were not moving, after some time your feet would freeze. The mukluks are made for extreme cold, if there is water it is not cold enough, should be at least -10c or 14f. And we also have the old Mark II that you probably wore when you in the forces they are good till about 10c or 50f. For in between we have a gortex lined boot this fits well for the in between. The mits and mukluks have not changed since I first used them in 1972, I remember being in Wainright in January on my winter warfare course and was quite impressed with the kit.

I would bring the mukluks since they are not heavy and wear gortex boots, I think the us military has some sort of cold weather gortex boot.


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## Scoobie Newbie (11 Oct 2004)

I think the parka is pretty warm esp. combined with the fleece shirt


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## chrisf (11 Oct 2004)

Quite. The old parka is designed as part of a clothing system involving layering, including long johns, the combat sweater, and the fleece jacket, just as the new parka includes the new long johns, and the fleec jacket.


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## Britney Spears (11 Oct 2004)

The Russians have supposedly come out with a material that heats up upon absorbing moisturer, and can be used multiple times by simply drying it out on a radiator afterwards. They are also supposedly making mukluks/valenki with such a lining. Sounds a little fishy but not completely unplausible.

I definetly enjoy the fleece pocket handwarmers on the new parkas and jackets. Such a great simple idea.  

What we really need is a fleece touque. Perhaps 2. A thinner one for use as a helmet liner for chilly autum nights and a thicker one for arctic wear and garrison. Both should also serve as balaclavas.  This is almost as high on my wish list as dermatologist approved, none pore clogging cam paint, but not quite.


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## axeman (11 Oct 2004)

I've done the exs your talking about  a jan in north norway and also a fall in northern norway , what id recommend for you is to try and find a set of oversized goretex sox that fit over your felt liners for your mucklucks mine are size 14  to fit over a size 9 bootie. it seems to kick A== as in norway it could be snowing up top of the mpountian and the gunners down below were getting rained on ... . it will be a damp ex  thats for sure .


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## Scoobie Newbie (11 Oct 2004)

Brit you can always buy fleece toques.  I had my grandmother knit me a helmet liner based off a WW1 design.  Does well.


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## Britney Spears (11 Oct 2004)

> Brit you can always buy fleece toques.  I had my grandmother knit me a helmet liner based off a WW1 design.  Does well.



But where's the fun in that? and my grandmother's kinda far away right now, unfortunately......

MEC carrys a black fleece skull cap which works perfectly as a helmet liner. It was thin enough so that there was no need to adjust your helmet straps, yet on its own its at least as warm as the issued bobble hat. It's great in winter too, as an extra layer and also to keep off touque head.  Folded up to the size and weight of a pack of kleenex. I always keep it in my webbing (summer too)  It's the best $11 you can give to a Canadian company.

 here: http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=675115&PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=480991&bmUID=1097544799808



Final hijack: Is your palm pilot working now?


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## Matt_Fisher (12 Oct 2004)

I appreciate the feedback!

What I think I'm going to do is to bring both the Mickey Mouses and mukluks and see which set works best.   It will also be interesting to see if we get issued the US black "cold/wet weather boot" seeing as how the Marine Corps has gone entirely to the Coyote Brown boots and black are no longger authorized for wear.

Britney, the skull cap you use is very similar to the Ice-9 Helmet Liner that OR makes which is perfect for wear under a kevlar or CVC helmet in cold weather, or just on its own instead of a toque.
http://www.orgear.com/home/style/home/headware/cold_hats/windproof_hats/83185

As far as the CF parka goes...I just found it to be too bulky and heavy for the warmth it provided.   Granted when I was in the cotton long underwear was still standard issue, fleece was just starting to come into issue for those going on ops, and the korean war vintage flannel shirt was considered high speed (granted it was very very very good for use as a field/patrol shirt in autumn and early spring).

For clothing I'll be wearing capilene long underwear for my base layer, with a Polartec 100 weight fleece pullover and a set of Polartec 300 pants and jacket for my insulating layers with my Gore-Tex shell jacket and pants as my outer layer.   

For mitts I'll be wearing the OR Vario Mitts (similar to the trigger mitts, but more insulated)
http://www.orgear.com/home/style/home/handtools/gloves/ascent/71830

For mitt liners/contact gloves I'll be using the OR Omni Glove
http://www.orgear.com/home/style/home/handtools/gloves/work_gloves/70080

For facial/head protection from cold air cutting into my face and head while cruising around the frozen landscape in the turret of my LAV-25 I'll be using the OR Windstopper Gorilla Balaclava (is it becoming obvious I'm very partial to Outdoor Research stuff?)
http://www.orgear.com/home/style/home/headware/cold_hats/balaclavas/83990

On my feet I'll have to try both the Mickey Mouse's and mukluks.   For socks I'll use either my SmartWool Mountaineers or my Wigwam Ingenius socks, taking care to change my socks frequently.

Hopefully outfitted as such I'll stave off any cold weather injuries.


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## Scoobie Newbie (12 Oct 2004)

I know guys would die before letting go of their flannel shirts.   The Muckluks are definately a no go in wet snow.   We now also have poly pro underwear as well as the fleece.   The windpants also have some insulation as well.   I tend to wear the parka shell with poly pro shirt and fleece shirt.

Brit yes I got it working.   Thanks for the help.  Thats not you in the pic is it?


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## Britney Spears (12 Oct 2004)

> As far as the CF parka goes...I just found it to be too bulky and heavy for the warmth it provided.  Granted when I was in the cotton long underwear was still standard issue, fleece was just starting to come into issue for those going on ops, and the korean war vintage flannel shirt was considered high speed (granted it was very very very good for use as a field/patrol shirt in autumn and early spring).



The new parka is significantly more form fitting compared to the old one, and  includes sundry gucci features, Including the removable liner, goretex, and of course the handwarmers in cadpat fleece. This is a size 6740 parka, for size comparison. here are some pictures. Note how effective the camoflage pattern would be in the snow. I suppose if i put it on and went to sleep in the ranger blanket they'll never find me. 

Funny story: Friend of mine, on his first winter ex, couldn't figure out why his feet were so cold. After getting back, he found that stores had forgotten to issue him insoles for his mukluks.


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## pappy (12 Oct 2004)

Having been in some mighty cold weather in   Korea and Norway I'd say there are much better choces these days.   The MM are useful boots when compared to the old issued non-water proof combat boots the US used to issue, but only when stationary, they are much too heavy for any long term movement on foot.   Compared to todays modern warerproof insulated boots, well lots of other choices.   I had two choices in Korea (over two different winters) MM boots or the old single layer leather combat boots, we used both at different times.   Good socks and plenty of changes of socks are mandatory.   Todays hi-tech socks are light years over the past.   If your moving around in the MM boots a lot your feet will sweat, once you stop your feet will get cold as hell if you can't dry them out.   MM boots are heavy as hell!   Hard to walk in, becuase you can't feel where your feet go that well.   The sceond year in Korea I took a extra pair of leather boots bigger size to wear more layers of socks.   As it was too cold most of the time to be wet, thier lack of water proofing wasn't a concern. Bigger boots with a couple of pair of socks alowed room to keep your feet moving and warm.

When I went to Norway a few years later I took along a pair of "modern" (as far as 1980 technology could offer) off the shelf waterprrofed insulated boots that appears to look like the issue boots.   No grief from upper ranks as they has some common sense and let it slide for field use.   Beside they sold them at the PX and many of them bought the same ones.   We had to take the MM boots as they part of our Issue cold weather gear, but I never once used them, it was a combo of the Insulated boots in the field and standard issue boots around base camp or for warmer weather humping.   Good socks and my feet where happy campers.   And I still have all my toes....

Matt if you have a chance to before you go I'd highly recommend these peices of kit:   (you can order from stateside mail-order firms, but sometimes cheaper over seas - UK)
One of these 3 will do wonders.
http://www.snugpak.com/codegreen/airpak.php4
or
http://www.snugpak.com/codegreen/pileshirt.php4   (pretty much a copy of the Bullfalo Special 6 shirt)
or
http://www.buffalosystems.co.uk/dp3.htm
(don't worry they have OD green too haha)
The buffalo products are amazing stuff, I use them all the time and they are worth thier weight in gold.   For me they work better then plain fleece or windstopper fleece, fleece/goretex.

I have lots of the current issue US cold weather gear, while drastic imporvements over the 1940' - 50's gear we used in the late 70's and 80's, there are still better choices out there.   

The Petex shells are windproof to 50+ mph, poking out the top of the LAV ..... burrr ahd more beatherable and less bulk then wearing Goretex over fleece.

Have fun in Norway Matt!   A beautiful place, blondes as far as the eyes can see   lol 

Semper Fi

hell your from Canada, you know cold weather.   But if you got a few extra $$ you'll love this stuff.


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## Britney Spears (12 Oct 2004)

Matt:

Perhaps you should also consider some kind of scarf or neckwarmer? lIt's a little more protection than just the balaclava, and provides a lot of warmth for its weight.

My grandmother(she mailed it to me) knitted me a wool neckwarmer, essentially a toque with the top open, and is both smaller and better than the issued scarf. 

Also, the CF issues a ECW (extreme cold weather) hood.  It looks like a stormtrooper helmet from star wars, made out of the same material as the parka liner. Warmest. hat. ever.  Don't have much prehipheral vision when wearing it, so I'm not sure if you'd want to be wearing it while driving, but it IS issued almost exclusively to armoured crews.


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## Big Bad John (12 Oct 2004)

Pappy have you been looking in my kit bag again.   Snugpak's are unofficial cold weather kit for us.   Started using them in the 70's when the Marines (Royal that is) were tasked to defend Norway.   Great links.   I always knew you had to be intelligent!


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## Scoobie Newbie (12 Oct 2004)

I have yet had a need for the cold weather hood.


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## pappy (12 Oct 2004)

lol Big John,

I can't take credit for the Sungpak stuff, hell I learned a few things from the Royal Marines I met in Norway, besides the fact I couldn't keep up with them drinking rum.

Norway was where I was introduced the the wonderful kit previded by Mr Brett Harris, LTD.   Wish I had it when I went to Korea, but it's going with me there next year when I visit.

 ;D
P.S. Still got my Snugpak Softie Sleeka jacket, another good choice Matt.


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## Britney Spears (12 Oct 2004)

CFL:

What about arctic slippers?


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## Scoobie Newbie (12 Oct 2004)

hardly, I just put on my mucklucks and do my thing.  They don't take up much room but I don't bother, same with the sleeping hood.  Did you get my PM?


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## Gunnerlove (12 Oct 2004)

I love my flannel shirt. Its fire resistance is far better than the new fleece sweater. 

WP anyone?


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## Scoobie Newbie (12 Oct 2004)

Not to mention that if your involved with explosives you can't wear the fleece (static electricity concerns).


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## Matt_Fisher (12 Oct 2004)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> CFL:
> 
> What about arctic slippers?



I totally forgot about those things!   They're a godsend for chores in and around the tent.

Pappy, and Big Bad John,I had a chance to play around with some Snugpak stuff when I was at a trade show here in VA a month ago.   Really nice kit!   The only thing I wonder about is its durability?   I've used a couple Primaloft jackets from MEC, and while it's very light weight and compressible, they tend to lose their loft after a few washings.  I still would be interested in the Snugpak stuff though...

CFL, I did use the Ice Planet Hoth Stormtrooper hood when I was in.  It was pretty warm, but it would get really wet around the mouth from condensation  and subsequently get all frosty on the exterior.  Not too fun for long-term wear.

If I had an unlimited budget for kit for this Norway trip could wind up costing me well over $1000US.  Unfortunately with my luck I'd spend all that money just to wind up back in Iraq a few months later   ;D

With that said, I'm gonna go with as much of the issued fleece and other stuff, and get my own gloves, balaclava, toque and CF mukluks or some heavy duty civvie Sorels.

If I had the money, what I'd really love to get would be a Kifaru MMR  http://www.kifaru.net/MGemr.htm
to use instead of the CFP-90 ruck that I've got.


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## Scoobie Newbie (12 Oct 2004)

I absolutely love my fleece neck warmer.  You do get an icy build up around where it covers your mouth but its the cats ass.


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## IPC10 (12 Oct 2004)

My two cents on the Mukluks,

       I acquired a set of the issue gore-tex socks and wear them over the inner boot on the mukluk.   Took some experimenting to get the right fit (I think it was size 11 gore-tex socks for a size 9 mukluk).   It solved the problem of the lack of water-proofness of the mukluk itself without compromising the breathing too greatly.

       Was using them back when a platoon comd in a light bn.


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## Matt_Fisher (12 Oct 2004)

It would seem to make sense for the CFs to update the Mukluks by replacing the uncoated nylon/canvas material of the upper with a trilaminate gore-tex to keep the boot more waterproof, yet still breathable.


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## Scoobie Newbie (12 Oct 2004)

hahaha you said CF and make sense in the same sentence.


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## Scoobie Newbie (12 Oct 2004)

I have also heard from some of the quiet professionals that they like the stuff from Under Armor.


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## Arctic Acorn (12 Oct 2004)

As long as the weather is cold enough to not have to worry about puddles and the likes, the issue mukluks are great. The only time that you really have to worry is when the weather is only marginally below freezing, and wet snow soaks your boot. That, and running into a patch of overflow can get your boots wet in any temperature. However, as long as you remembered to stog the replacement socks and liners somewhere where you can get to them easily, you're aces. you gotta be quick, though. I did that once in about -35 weather, and by the time I had a chance to replace them, they had frozen so solid that I needed to beath the crap outta them with the tent stake mallet to get them out.  :crybaby:

I cannot say enough good things about the new issued sock system. Everyone is different, but the really thick gray socks are amazing. In fact, I believe thay had to contract out to Norway to make them, as we didn't have the facilities here to make them that thick.


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## chrisf (13 Oct 2004)

CFL said:
			
		

> Not to mention that if your involved with explosives you can't wear the fleece (static electricity concerns).



Really? How much static electricity does a fleece generate? Any ideas? I know I'm probably being paranoid, but would it present any dangers when fueling with gasoline?


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## Scoobie Newbie (13 Oct 2004)

Not sure but I doubt its enough for refueling.  Your better off going into the engineer forum.  This was when the fleece was just issued so I'm not sure if they reformatted their policies.


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## Gayson (14 Oct 2004)

I asked a buddy of mine in 2 FER, he says that it is still not allowed to wear fleece around explosives.


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## Scoobie Newbie (15 Oct 2004)

I hope for their sake they kept the old stuff.


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## Big Bad John (17 Oct 2004)

I have found that while I am undergoing medical treatment, I have a lot of time to catch up on my reading.  After reading the article below, I immediately thought of you Matt!  I hope that you and everyone else finds it helpful.  Courtesy of the "Globe and Laurel"  and "Soldier" magazines:

[size=10pt]Head-to-toe warmth from three new products designed to beat the freeze




NEXT time you go for a stroll in Siberia you might consider slipping the three products illustrated on this page into in your rucksuck, writes John Elliott.

Each will help to keep you warm.
At the extreme end of the adventure business, anyone contemplating a seriously cold environment would do well to look at a new lightweight survival bag manufactured from a British-made material called Reflexcell.

When Royal Marines put it to the test in sub-zero conditions they found it kept them warm three times longer than bivvy bags routinely used by civilian mountaineers.

Gwynedd-based Blizzard Protection Systems Ltd launched a range of Reflexcell products at the Mountain Rescue conference in Bangor, North Wales last month.

It includes a sleeping bag, blanket and jacket, each of which packs down to about the size of a video cassette. The survival bag weighs just 350gm.

It looks a bit like a more sophisticated version of the â Å“space blanketsâ ? dished out to runners at the end of the London Marathon. But instead of a single layer of foil, there are reflective surfaces encasing a layer of air. Like the marathon runner's blanket, the surface is waterproof.

As well as being tested at temperatures of -13C in Arctic Norway, the kit has been used in field conditions over the past four years by UK rescue teams, mountaineers, emergency planners and medical services.

The foil survival aids are available in Army green as well as silver.

Derek Ryden, who founded Blizzard, said: â Å“Our survival bags outperform single-layer space blankets and plastic survival bags in every respect.

â Å“They are small enough to slip into a first-aid kit or backpack, can be deployed in seconds and re-used many times.

â Å“Military vehicles and aircraft can carry dozens in a small space.â ?

More info at www.blizzardpack.com

If Derek's blanket doesn't reach down to your toes, the battery-powered Footwarmer from Cheltenham-based Footwarmer Ltd could be the answer.

It provides up to 11 hours of soothing heat via a soft pad which you insert into your shoe and is supplied with an adhesive strip that can be used to attach the pad securely into the boot or shoe.


The business end of the device is a two-battery (AA) pack you strap to your ankle or boot by means of a Velcro strap.

More info at www.foot-warmer.ltd.uk

And finally, SealSkinz have added a fleece-lined, breathable, windproof cap to their range of waterproof socks, gloves and other garments.

It can be adjusted to protect the ears and neck, and the wired peak can be pulled down to protect the eyes. It has been tested in temperatures down to -5C and found to be effective. 

More information at www.brandnation.co.uk


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## chrisf (17 Oct 2004)

Big Bad John said:
			
		

> It can be adjusted to protect the ears and neck, and the wired peak can be pulled down to protect the eyes. It has been tested in temperatures down to -5C and found to be effective.



-5C? Got to be a typo...


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## Big Bad John (17 Oct 2004)

Hey, we're British!  Give me a break!   lol


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## pappy (19 Oct 2004)

Good info John.  
Didn't President Jimmy Cater tell us we here in the US were going Metric?  

I think all of us men would approve / back the metic system, hell 20 cm sounds way better then 8 inches....

old fart funny story next:

once apon a time I was young...  i.e. the 1970's...
My goverment decided to intorduce me to the wonderful country of Korea...
Hell it was a free boat ride, now bad could it be?
(Actually it was / is a turely wonderful place, I loved it.)
But cold it could be.  Expeically for Marines stationed in sunny Okinawa Japan.
The Corps does indeed have a sense of humor.... one day in sunny 80 F Oki and a week later chilly Korea...
we laughed a lot at those -30 F below daytime temps...

Well one day we where sitting around in our un-heated tents, (long story saved for another day) with a few days off while 1/2 the company went on liberty.
While 1/2 our friends where warming themselves with cute korean girls in some far away city... the rest of us drank our "beer ration" 
whoooo hoooo 2 beers a day and heated up our c-rations. Good times  ;D

Well one of our young PFCs was a quiet lad from the wilds of Montana....
a tad bit stranger then the rest of us, we agreed the sheep where glad he joined up.
Well here he was messing around with a space blanket.... nothing really odd there, they work nicely...
what got our attention, peaked our 2-beer soaked curioristys so much was he was cutting it up into peices...
and sewing them back togarther into a wearable garment, odd we all thought even for this young cowboy from Montana
to be doing on his time off.  Someone was about ready to go get the Doc (our beloved Navy Corpsman) and have this PFC escorted
to the padded tent down at Btn HQ when he stood up and put it on.  A gold/silver foil suit......  not quite Marine regulation.
If he had put on a matching tin foil hat we would have been on the dirt rolling in tears laughing.....

But a few days later when we where back out in the field and the temps had dropped even more there was that PFC with a warm sh**-eatting grin on his face
in the foil suit under his camies (BDUs).  He may have crinkled when he walked, but he walked warm.
While the rest of us froze our butts off as the wind cut though us like a knife we wondered who had the last laugh.

Improvise, adapt, overcome.  Semper Fi


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## 1feral1 (20 Oct 2004)

Until recently, Australian winter kit consisted of the fol:

Dont get me wrong, it does get cold here, often to -10C in some areas, and in the Southern Alps sometimes over -20C.

However its usually about 0Cto -2C with high humidity, and its a cold that goes thru to your bones.

- wool gloves
- AUSCAM jumper
- AUSCAM japara (rubber wet weather jacket)

As of earlier this year the above was replaced with the fol:

- AUSCAM gortex japara
- AUSCAM gortex wet weather pants
- polar fleece jacket in kahki

As for head protection, there is nothing   shy of a floppy bush hat, but numerous 'private purchase' stuff, such as touques and balaclavas ranging in colours from AUSCAM to OD, and black.

With this type of headwear, its at the RSMs discretion, and the usual rule of 'may only be worn between sunset and sunrise' is adhered to.

Cheers,

Wes


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