# Promotions in the CAF [Merged]



## Soldier of Fortune (5 Jun 2001)

I was just wondering if you can be promoted to  2nd lieutenant from master warrant? I know that if you go to collage/university you automatically become an officer but can you reach officer level through promotions?


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## JRMACDONALD (5 Jun 2001)

If you were a MWO, and wanted to become an officer   ( god knows why!) you would apply for CFR( commisioning from ranks).you would become a Capt,I believe. One doesn‘t Automatically become an officer by going to University(you can become or stay as NCM) TheCF prefers their"gentlemen"    to have  degrees. You can become a NCM then, later, apply for officer  training.  :crybaby:


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## McG (5 Jun 2001)

You can become an officer through what is known as comissioning from the ranks (CFR).  To be eligable one must be qualified to the rank of Sgt, have a minimum of eight years in the ranks, and be going into the officer MOC related to thier current MOC.  Sgt and WO ranks will get promotted to Lt upon CFRing, CWOs will go up to Capt.  I‘m not sure if MWOs go to Capt or Lt.  This is not a promotion, and must be applied for.

btw: One does not automatically become an officer if they have a university degree.  There are some NCMs in the forces with university degrees.  Individuals must apply if they wich to become officers.


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## Soldier of Fortune (7 Jun 2001)

I though I had read somewhere that if you go to RCMC (Royal Canadian Military Coledge) and graduate then you become an officer...?


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## McG (7 Jun 2001)

Attendance at RMC requires enrollment in ROTP or RETP.  Since both of these are officer enrollment schemes, all graduates will be officers.  I do not know if University Training Plan NCM (UTPNCM) candidates may also be permitted to attend RMC.  All such candidates who I‘ve met were taking thier degree programs at civilian universities.  UTPNCM is another officer training program which offers NCM‘s the opportunity to get a university degree and a comission.


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## RCA (8 Jun 2001)

MWO become Capts, and there are rumours now floating about that "senior" CWOs can CFR to Maj.

As to why any sane level headed WO or SNCO would CFR, think of a wolf in sheep‘s clothing


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## JRMACDONALD (8 Jun 2001)

when did I ever think I  would  back up a "gunner"


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## Joel85 (26 Jun 2003)

I have been asking myself this question for a while now: Do promotions in the Canadian Forces only depend on how long you‘ve been serving, or does dedication, hard work and loyalty get you promoted? Could a private get promoted to corporal say, after 6 months after joining if he‘s an outstanding soldier?


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## Korus (26 Jun 2003)

Nope. For the reserve, it‘s a minimum 2 years as a private before you can get promoted to Corporal. The Cpl rank is kind of a gimmie rank, but after that it gets harder, and you have to show that you deserve the promotion, and there needs to be space.


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## klumanth (26 Jun 2003)

In the reg force you can get advance promoted to Corporal but I think you still have to do at least 3 years as a private.  Otherwise you would get your corporals after 4 years.  Any thing after corporal requires you to be two years in rank before promotion.


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## Nfld Sapper (27 Jun 2003)

> For the reserve, it‘s a minimum 2 years as a private before you can get promoted to Corporal


Depends on what trade you are. For example to be promoted form Sapper to Corporal you HAVE to do your QL5 now Section 2IC Course and have at least one year in the ranks as a Spr.


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## Fader (28 Jun 2003)

I also heard for some trades, (eg: Sig OP) If you sign something like a 5 year contract with the reg force, they automatically promote you to Corporal either upon completion of basic or even upon being sworn in (someone else can look that up though, I just heard that by word of mouth)


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## Paul F (4 Feb 2004)

Okay, I have been reading articles on the internet regarding the military (deployment to Afghanistan, etc.) and have notices about 90% of the quotes are from Corporals. Are there often promotions in the infantry, or if I join up will I be a career corporal with a very slim chance of moving up the latter?

Could someone break it down, like how many Master Corporals, Sargeants, etc. are in each battalion (i.e. PPCLI 3rd Battalion, etc.)


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## Scoobie Newbie (4 Feb 2004)

Well it all depends on what you want.  If you want to be a CFL (corporal for life) then so be it.  If you desire to advance then those options will become available after about 3 years and your not a waste of skin.  Once you get all the sub courses (mods 1-6) then promotion will occur in a healthy time (seems like they will give the leaf to anyone these days) provided that openings are available.  As for numbers it really isn‘t relevent and it would take me too long to count them all.  Typically though a Warrant heads a platoon.  A sgt runs a section (3 per platoon).  Mcpl‘s act as 2 I/C‘s (same numbers).  Then there are other postions for Jack‘s to fill and often someone is doing the job one or two levels above ie Sgt running the platoon.  This is a quick and simple run down but there are many other postions which I‘m not going to get into.


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## Evan (4 Feb 2004)

Is there a training school for sargents in the CF?


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## Scoobie Newbie (4 Feb 2004)

Not exactly sure what your question means (wish i was in Hawaii), but when a Jack has done enough time then he goes on his Sgt‘s course (can‘t remember the name since they changed the course) usually run in Waignright or Gagetown (I think).


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## portcullisguy (5 Feb 2004)

A Sgt in my regt just did finished a WO‘s course last spring, and it was at Gagetown.

He said it was a real work out (the field portion, anyway.

He went on to use his new-found skills as a PL WO, and I think he figured he‘d get a break from that during Stalwart Guardian, but he continued as PL WO during the ex as well!

I know this doesn‘t answer any questions, but I thought I‘d share anyway!


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## Evan (5 Feb 2004)

****, if we didnt go off topic once in a while this place wouldnt be as intreasting


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## dano (25 Mar 2004)

I‘d like to inform you all that tonight I was promoted to sergeant.

For some reason I don‘t feel greatly happy.

Maby it‘s because I was "Volunteered" myself for the Drill team on sunday... They are missing one person,(That person decided to go AWAL) without 15 cadets in the team, they cannot enter into the competition..

in effect... I took the silver bullet for the team. So as of sunday the 21st I have to learn drill rifle movements and all these other advanced stuff that the team has been working on the whole year for the competition this saterday the 27th at Fort York...

I‘d never thought I‘d see myself in the drill team... Even the officers know if there we‘re one team I wouldn‘t join it would be the Drill team.

Ohh well... at least I like the blisters on my hands from handling the rifle for soo, soo many hours.. It reminds me I accomplished something today.

Just like to let you guys know.


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## Infanteer (25 Mar 2004)

Does this mean you get to go into the SNCO‘s mess now?


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## Matt0304 (25 Mar 2004)

Yeah, cuz alot goes on in there in cadets...


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## alexk (25 Mar 2004)

well are you a sgt just for the competition or is it perminant, because if it is then you should feel great, i know when i was premoted to sgt i felt great ready to do the job. people dont just premote people for no reason you auviously earned it, by the way what camps and star level do you have? how long have you been in cadets, and lastly i would like to congradulate you in your promotion welcome to the world of being a cadet senior NCO


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## cdhoult (25 Mar 2004)

It depends on your corps, I haven‘t seen it much on the army side...

On the Sea Side, we had a Chief and Petty Officer‘s mess (i.e. WO and Sgt‘s mess), and event hat varties corps to corps......some corps I was at, the C&PO‘s mess is nothing more than a room to hangout....other corps have really active messes that do fundraising, host dinners, etc.

Nothing wrong with taking the initiative though! If you have 5 SNCO‘s or so, and you can get some closet space, ask to set it up. I can PM you some more details if you like.

CH


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## dano (26 Mar 2004)

The position is permanent. 

I have not been to camp yet. I‘m in Silver star.
I‘ve been in for a year and a half.

Ya, we have a SNCO‘s mess. But it‘s nothing spectacular.

I think I‘ll pass on the closet space. Thanks for the offer though.


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## cdhoult (26 Mar 2004)

You guys have a room    Some corps I‘ve been to, the SNCO‘s mess is like a really small walk in closet.

CH


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## dano (26 Mar 2004)

Ya, ours is a small office in the armories,

and I just realized that I think there are more or the same amount of rooms for the Army Cadets then there is for the Milita in the armories.
I think the Corp was always with the Lorne Scots since the start.


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## chalk1 (26 Mar 2004)

You‘ve been in a year and a half and you‘re already a Sgt??


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## alexk (26 Mar 2004)

took me 2 and 3/4 years to be a sgt


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## dano (26 Mar 2004)

Yes.

And beleive me when I say you‘re not the first to ask that question.

Yes I know age is a factor but, just a small factor.

I worked for it. I proved myself. 
It was not handed out to me.
I go and have gone above and beyond the call of Duty.


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## alan_li_13 (26 Mar 2004)

Way to go Dano. Its hard work but its all worth it come promotion time, lol    
Took me 13 months + CL camp to get M/Cpl 
You‘ve never been to camp? That‘s a little suprising. You should go this year. I‘m doing D&C at Blackdown.


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## dano (27 Mar 2004)

The SNCO‘s tought me alot of what they learned on their summer courses.. Also I should be at Blackdown this summer doing CL.

By the way, I‘m also a SEC CMDR as well.
Just though I‘d fill that in.


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## Sgt_McWatt (27 Mar 2004)

I don't really know you so its not my place to judge but wouldn't going above the call of duty entail at least attending a basic summer camp?? I know at my corp you wont get Sgt. unless you've completed at least CL preferably CLI and are Gold Star qualified.


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## elscotto937 (30 Mar 2004)

I tend to agree with Sgt McWatt, Dano you are quite junior to be a Sgt, but then again you only have 5 years to make chief. Dano providing this promotion is based (and I assume it is) on your good performance, then your superiors must feel that you are ready, so congratulations. But maybe your not happy because you feel that it all came too easy, just a thought. Anyway, your an army cadet and you haven‘t been in a drill team before, it kinda sounds like you don‘t like drill.


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## dano (30 Mar 2004)

> I tend to agree with Sgt McWatt, Dano you are quite junior to be a Sgt, but then again you only have 5 years to make chief.


If by junior you mean by how long I have been in the Corps. Yes. I do agree with you. It does not make it unnesessarily wrong though.



> Dano providing this promotion is based (and I assume it is) on your good performance, then your superiors must feel that you are ready, so congratulations.


Thank you



> But maybe your not happy because you feel that it all came too easy, just a thought.


You are right. That is just how I feel. As a M/Cpl I thought about how I would like to raise the standards of the Corps if I we‘re a Sergeant.
And now... I am one, and I don‘t know where i am coming from with this thought but, it seem‘s just beeing a Sergeant. And knowing that a few of my superiors and in some cases subordinates feel "it should be them" or "I never got Sgt that easy or fast" comments like that. They do not say it, but I can feel that vibration when Iam in their presence.
But, A WO (of now my ex-platoon) is neutral on the matter, he feels, If these guys go to camp; CL, CLI; become qualified for higher ranks, but do not get the promotion. Instead someone else takes that position and whatnot who is less qaulified, yadda yadda yadda. The individuals that went to the camp complain about fairness, qaulification and whatnot, when themselves don‘t use the qualifications they we‘re trained. "It‘s one thing to be qualified, it is another to use the qualifitions"
That is his opinion on the matter. 



> Anyway, your an army cadet and you haven‘t been in a drill team before, it kinda sounds like you don‘t like drill.


Accually, I thought I used to hate it. But after the drill training and competion. It was starting to become fun.


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## cdhoult (30 Mar 2004)

Coming from someone who was fast tracked through the system (CPO1 [CWO] in under 4 years) it come sometimes be an uphill battle, and funny enough, it isn‘t usually the respect of those below you that you have to earn (exception being the group you were promoted from).

I remember I was talking to someone who was a PO1(WO) when I was a CPO1...they were a LC(Cpl)when I joined the corps (although I had later transfered). I remember getting the comment, "If we were ever on an exercise, I wouldn‘t really have to listen to you, because I‘ve been in longer, so you‘re not REALLY a chief in comparison to me". So it‘s hard to turn around to someone who was senior to me, and a little be resentful, and try to word, "Yes, I AM a real chief, and yes, you would have to listen to me" in a way that doesn‘t sound arrogant. 

Just watch what you say and how you come across...some of the people at the same rank will treat you as though you‘re wet behind the ears, and may try to patronize you...just work your hardest and see your goals through. It got you to where you‘re currently sitting, right?

btw, is Lisa Olem still around?

CH


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## dano (30 Mar 2004)

I know what you‘re saying.

"You may out-rank me, but you‘re not my superior"
Just a quote my father use‘s.


No she is not.


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## alexk (30 Mar 2004)

"You may out-rank me, but you‘re not my superior"
that is true, a good freind of mine who is a CL band NSCE Drum major 17 year old mcpl. feels he doesent have to listen to a couple of silver star sgts. i feel the sgts are going about it wrongly they should use him in what ever way they can. they do the im a sgt go over there and do that when a tpr. could do it me personaly its not just you qualifications but its your willing ness to do your job and if your gonna be one of the senior nco‘s who enjoy sitting then march right up to your officers and give them those stripes back( ive seen to many of these) 

PS the mcpl had an attitude problem and a problem with the coprs standard WO who think he runs the corps.


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## pyro_208 (30 Mar 2004)

Congratulations on your permotion, Being a sergeant is one of the best positions to have in my opinion, its the one time you get to lead a section and help out your cadets first hand. I Think you‘ll enjoy it more than pusing papers and dealing with bad seniors as a WO or MWO. The most important thing to remember is that your section will look up to you; what you do will effect them when they get to your spot. I‘ve seen what bad examples do to cadets, its not worth the time to fix it later.


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## cdhoult (30 Mar 2004)

I had the age thing happen to when I was the RPO (like CSM, essentially). We had an 18 year old PO2 (Sgt) who decided he didn‘t have to listen to any of us who were PO1 (WO‘s) at the time, because, hey, he was older....one visit with the CO set him straight. 

Just be careful how you go about things. I‘m never a fan of pulling rank and going, "Now, I‘m a Sgt, and you‘re a MCpl, this means...". If it gets bad, and someone is just not listening, it‘s OK to phrase it blatantly as an order...it sounds bad, and I can‘t say I‘m a huge fan, but sometimes you‘ll get that one MCpl or Cpl who just doesn‘t quite know their place, and needs to be reminded. 

Either that, or record everything. Best way to get things done, and ensure fair discipline is recieved, is to docuement EVERYTHING that happens...that way if one day you‘ve had enough of Cpl Bloggins, and the CO asks you what happened, you have in writing what happened during each occurrence.

CH


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## elscotto937 (31 Mar 2004)

Yeah Dano, I intended junior to mean newer to the corps...so you got my intent. 
About the guys that think your rank does not mean as much because you out performed them and were promoted ahead of them, they will always be around. That is of course based on my limited experience, so maybe they are not around when you get really old. It is a hard thing to accept at any age that there are people better than you, so the excuses must come. Continue to perform well, because experience is good but performance and potential make the leader or the leader to be.
Sorry, guys that was a bit of a rant, but I get to go home in a 3 days and I‘m feeling rather philosophical on the subject of leadership...


Scott


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## dano (31 Mar 2004)

Time will tell, I guess.


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## chalk1 (7 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by Dano:
> [qb]
> I go and have gone above and beyond the call of Duty. [/qb]


What, exactly, do you mean by that? How can you go "above and beyond" in cadets? Did you protect your CO from a green star with a runny nose? I mean honestly, if they saw fit that you be promoted, then congrats...but don‘t take up bandwidth by bragging.


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## Ranger (7 Apr 2004)

Well I‘m a CPL and I‘m a Section 2IC, but I‘ve been todl to expect MCPL because of how much I know and have learned in my short time in cadets (a year and 2 months). I show everyone respect, even if I don‘t liek them and I make sure the ranks that don‘t know waht to do when an officer or a WO and up walks by i tell them. 
so anyway, I‘m moving up the ranks pretty wuickly too


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## chalk1 (12 Apr 2004)

Sorry, my comments weren‘t directed at you.


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## Ranger (12 Apr 2004)

It‘s okay...i was jsut making a point


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## Ranger (12 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by pyro_208:
> [qb] Congratulations on your permotion, Being a sergeant is one of the best positions to have in my opinion, its the one time you get to lead a section and help out your cadets first hand. I Think you‘ll enjoy it more than pusing papers and dealing with bad seniors as a WO or MWO. The most important thing to remember is that your section will look up to you; what you do will effect them when they get to your spot. I‘ve seen what bad examples do to cadets, its not worth the time to fix it later. [/qb]


I totally agree with Pyro...Sgt is probably the best rank...mind you right now i‘m praying to get MCPL this Friday at our CO‘s parade...that‘s all i can really do, hope that i get it. Pyro is also right about being a bad example nad hten going and havign to fix it later. Whata waste of time, do yourself a favour nad jsut do it right hte first time.


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## GGHG_Cadet (12 Apr 2004)

I was wondering, when do most corps promote? My corp only seems to promote at Christmas and Annual inspection. (Daniel sorry for hijacking your thread)


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## Ranger (12 Apr 2004)

well our corps promotes every other month i htink...i don‘t usually rememeber lol...but i‘m pretty sure it‘s every other month. thats our corps.


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## dano (12 Apr 2004)

For us, promotions don‘t actually occur each month. On average I‘d say... 2 or 3 times a year.


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## alan_li_13 (12 Apr 2004)

You guys gotta be specific. 
In giving out promotions, do you mean promotions how often for all the people that are getting them? or how often an individual gets them?

For my corp, once a month for the former, about once or (if ur lucky, or an excellent cadet like me    ) twice a year.


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## Ranger (13 Apr 2004)

okay sorry, what i meant was we do a CO‘s parade ever other month adn with that comes some promotions


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## alan_li_13 (13 Apr 2004)

I got a Co‘s Parade tomorow night. 
Hope i get my Sgt then. Wish me luck guys!!!


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## Ranger (15 Apr 2004)

we have a CO‘s parade tomorrow night as well...hopin to get Master Corporal   
Good luck Li


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## flip_masta (25 Apr 2004)

:gunner:  dont u just hate it when sum1 else gets a promotion then u


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## Ranger (25 Apr 2004)

Yes, of course I do...lol it‘s annoying, but it happens...I mean usually the people who get promoted deserve it...like Sparks and Sherman deserved M/Cpl, Lee didn‘t but hey what can ya do..


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## cdhoult (25 Apr 2004)

I‘d avoid posting corps laundry on here   

In the end, your CO made the decision to promote the cadet...maybe they saw something that you don‘t see in the cadet...but for whatever reason, the CO made the decision. And it should be respected.

CH


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## Sgt.Fitzpatrick (16 Jun 2004)

:blotto:  Congrats, good work!  Good luck as a sgt. I've been promoted at anual and I'm a younge sgt two year in cadets. I just how I do screw up because I was a cpl for 6 months and i didn't learn a lot as a cpl. :evil: :dontpanic:


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## Mcpl Yeomans (2 Jul 2004)

:soldier:
 Hey congradulations on your permotion sergent, I'm still a Mcpl but supposidly that is going to change after cadet camp, you said you were going Cadet Leader same here see you there.( I highly dout it but whatever)


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## undecided (18 Nov 2004)

I was curious about how long it takes to progress in rank, as well as the pay scale. The scale has three different levels for Private. Why? Does it have to do with courses? I realize that attitude, leadership, and competance will play a part in advancing. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks


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## Infanteer (18 Nov 2004)

http://army.ca/forums/threads/21101.0.html

The answer will most likely be found here....


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## pbi (18 Nov 2004)

Recruit Konyi: Promotion in our system is based on three things: qualification, performance and time in rank. Unlke some unionized civilian fields, time in rank is not the primary factor: it is only a "gateway". You do not automatically get promoted to any rank by waiting (even Cpl, Lt and Capt can be delayed by the CO). However, there is usually a requirement of two-three years to be spent at most rank levels, unless you are selected for an accelerated promotion.

Qualifications for promotion usually include formal military training courses but may also include service in particular positions or types of duty, academic education, etc. Medical fitness is normally a requirement as well.

Finally (and most controversially...) is the issue of performance or "merit". In the CF we use an annual evaluation system based on assessing both your Performance (how well you've done at the job you were given) and Potential (how well you could probably do at the next rank). Normally you should receive one formal annual evaluation per year, which is used to make promotion decisions, and two interim evaluations that are a bit less formal and are intended more to guide and inform the individual. 

The results of the annual evaluation are considered by whatever authority makes the decision to promote: in the Reg Force this is the promotion boards that sit in NDHQ outside the chain of command, while in the Army Reserve it is done within the chain of command. Cheers.


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## undecided (18 Nov 2004)

so in my first three years, what can i expect to ammount to?


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## pbi (18 Nov 2004)

Recruit Konyi said:
			
		

> so in my first three years, what can i expect to ammount to?



Well...that depends to a great extent on what you are enrolling as. What are you doing? Cheers.


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## white (18 Nov 2004)

I was just wondering about the pay rate table in the column category pay with the numbers 1,2,3 is that for years? I was just wondering because for private it goes up to three and the time you have to stay in is three years for NCM.


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## undecided (18 Nov 2004)

infantry


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## pbi (19 Nov 2004)

In the RegF, from zero to three years with no previous service will probably take you to the end of Pte(Trained) and about ready to become a Cpl. In the Res you would probably make Cpl, but I have to confess that I stand to be corrected by anybody who is more current. Cheers.


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## someguyincanada (26 Jan 2005)

was wondering when your on c&p you have no promotions and all, but when you come off it, are you given the promotion when it was supposed to be given to you. the reason I'm asking is cause I'm on it and  my Cpl's promotion is in June, does it go back six months and i receive the promotion in Dec? the reason being Ive been on c&p for six months.


Jay


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## Armymedic (26 Jan 2005)

Was one reason for you C & P because you can't type?

When your promotion paperwork comes in, it is reviewed by a few pers in the unit. In this case the Adjutant or CO or your unit will return your promotion paperwork to career shop stating you are on C & P for X period of time. Once that period is complete, the career shop will resend your promotion message again for approval. I understand the promotion is only effective after the C & P is completed, hence no back pay....

Hope this answers your question.....If any doubt, ask your clerks.


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## someguyincanada (26 Jan 2005)

the reason i was wondering cause the fiance was asking about it so i tell her i will get in june


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## KevinB (26 Jan 2005)

It will all depend upon when you were due and when your C&P was signed.

 As Armymedic pointed out you cannot be promoted (orposted / or placed on a career course) while on C&P.

Ask me how I know this  ;D


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## someguyincanada (26 Jan 2005)

im still a private, is due for my cpls june 2005, is it now going to be pushed back etc


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## KevinB (26 Jan 2005)

You got a year long C&P?   When is your C&P end date?

I am a little confused - 

PM me if you want.

But I will ttoss out two examples.

Pte Bloggins is due his Cpls 10 Dec - he gets an impaired and get a 1 year C&P for Alcohol 11 Dec - he will still get promoted (or if he does not he will get his back pay)

Pte Simpleton was due the same day as Bloggins (they went thru BSL together and were sworn inthe same day etc.)  But he got an imparied and put on C&P 9 Dec...  He does not pass go or collect his 2nd bone till the C&P is sucessfully completed.


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## DAA (27 Jan 2005)

I have seen many many variations of this situation.  Basically your C&P should be for 6 months max, but can be extended an additional 3 at the discretion of the CO.  The CO can also end the C&P early provided he feels that you have corrected your shortcomings which resulted in the C&P being issued in the first place.

I would just ask your clerk in the OR to check your pers file and find out when it was issued and when it ends, because that should be the date they promote you to Cpl.  You may also want to have a meeting with your supr on the issue, to make sure there is no misunderstanding on what is going on.  According to CFAO 49-4 which I will QUOTE "When a promotion to Pte(T) or Cpl is denied, the CO shall inform NDHQ/DGPCOR of the circumstances and specify the intended period of delay,and inform the member of the action taken".

So if you haven't been informed, I would be asking my supr at the first opportunity!


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## pbi (28 Jan 2005)

someguyincanada:

As part of your C&P, you are required to receive a monthly counselling session with your C&P supervisor. This has to be recorded in the C&P documentation in your pers file. I suggest that during the next interview you ask these questions.

Cheers.


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## someguyincanada (28 Jan 2005)

its coming up fast, next couple of days


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## Pieman (21 Feb 2005)

Hello,

I was at a dinner last night where some old veterans and legion members were present. The discussion turned to the CF and these gentelmen started to complain about how the french population seemed to have control of the promotional structure and will favour french Canadian born Soldiers/Officers when it came time to promote someone. Ultimatly they were saying it is much more difficult to advance your carreer in the CDN Infantry if you are not a native french speaker.

Is there any truth to these statements, or are the old boys a little out of touch?

Pieman


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## Bruce Monkhouse (21 Feb 2005)

MOD NOTE,
Ladies and Gentlemen...this is a legit question, lets keep it to legit answers or this topic will have a short shelve life.


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## Jungle (21 Feb 2005)

This does not apply only to the Infantry.
Senior positions for NCMs as well as Officers are bilingual positions. It makes sense as most, if not all, (RegF) Bases and Formations have people from both official languages. The positions are bilingual so that briefings and interviews, to include PER debriefs, can be done in the first language of the audience. 
Bonne chance !!!


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## PPCLI Guy (21 Feb 2005)

OK, I'll bite.

I will start with the caveat that I am not a big fan of conspiracy theories of any type.  So, not surprisingly, I do not for one minute believe that there is a plot afoot to ensure that only francophones get ahead in the infantry (as a Corps - that may not necesarily true in unulingual french regiments) - or anywhere else in the Forces.  Is second language ability a factor in ones overall score at a merit board - yes it is, but so is performance, potential, and education (and I have been known to rant about the "education conspiracy" but that is another topic).

Bottom line is, work hard, do what is demanded of you (including second language training, or in my case a BA rather late in life), and above all else, perform.

No conspiracy.

Dave


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## 043 (21 Feb 2005)

Bilingualism is an issue that isn't going to go away. While it seems like there is a conspiracy against anglos, that is not true.  In order to progress into Senior Appointments, there is a requirement to be bilingual. As well, being bilingual means that you are able to fill more positions. It works both ways.


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## Pieman (21 Feb 2005)

> I will start with the caveat that I am not a big fan of conspiracy theories of any type.   So, not surprisingly, I do not for one minute believe that there is a plot afoot to ensure that only francophones get ahead in the infantry


Neither am I, and that is really why I poised the question on here. In my mind, if a group of legion members and veterans feel that there is some kind of disadvantage with being a non-native french speaker, then it is quite possible that a large number of people feel this way. I am also quite sure there is no conspiracy at all. One more question to add that  I think will help clear up this rumour:

Is it possible that Francophone Soldier/Officers get promoted quicker on average (assuming that is true) because they tend to be more capable in the bilingual area? 

What I mean by more capable is simply that in my (limited) experience, most French Canadians are more Bilingual and have a good grip on the English language, while English Canadians (especially out west) tend to be rusty at best with their French skills (on average). Could it be that native English speakers are not making the cut in the selection process because they are getting blown away by the bilingual skills of the francophones, and thus giving the appearance that francophones are being favoured?

Edit: Also, The underlying assumtion for this rumour seems to be that native french speakers are promoted faster, but is that assumtion even true?


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## MdB (22 Feb 2005)

Pieman said:
			
		

> Is it possible that Francophone Soldier/Officers get promoted quicker on average (assuming that is true) because they tend to be more capable in the bilingual area?



I thought about that too. Maybe it is just that most francophones tend to be more capable in second language than most anglophones are in theirs.

Just to add some numbers to it. I don't intend to put them litterally on the CF, but it can give a picture since all CF members come of the larger canadian society.

According to a Statistics Canada survey, 9% of all english-speaking canadians interwied say they are bilingual. On the other side, 47% of all french-speaking canadians say they are. These numbers are really easy to understand. English is the language of North America, so to speak, english speakers don't really need french to make business (largest meaning). Conversely, french speakers total about 9 millions (dunno the precise number) population in a 270 millions or so english speakers population. It's normal, if not necessary to learn english in this situation to make business (largest meaning).

Another thing, I personally think that english is a lot easier to learn than french and god-bless I'm french speaker.

Cheers,


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## Pieman (24 Feb 2005)

> According to a Statistics Canada survey, 9% of all english-speaking canadians interwied say they are bilingual. On the other side, 47% of all french-speaking canadians say they are. These numbers are really easy to understand. English is the language of North America, so to speak, english speakers don't really need french to make business


Makes sense, I wonder if statistics on french/english ratios to rank in the CF would be available, possibly through access to information act...would be interesting to see.
(Torlyn, you got some spare time?) 



> Another thing, I personally think that english is a lot easier to learn than french and god-bless I'm french speaker.


Being from Alberta, my parents managed to get me out of French classes and had me learn German instead...it came in handy when I was in Germany, but does not have much use here in Canada. I am a little worried about the French language issue in my upcoming CF career as I will be walking in there knowing almost no French. I can only hope that the Language instruction I receive from the CF will do the trick.

Anyway, thanks all for your answers.


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## 1R22eR (24 Feb 2005)

I speak french and im in R22eR, i understand the english lang but i dont talk this, i want learning the english fir help me in my carreer  and for operation with other army in the world. the english is the first lang in the army and all french could be learning the english. im not very good for writing the english, sorry but i try to communicate with all guy in this website for practice the english!!  my english is not very good!!


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## MdB (24 Feb 2005)

I just heard CDS Hillier tonite. Now, I really think second language can't be THAT an hindrance to promotion. He's the top one now and he speaks FUNCTIONAL french to say the least. Hehe.

Cheers,


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## rw4th (24 Feb 2005)

I think the bottom line here is that, all things being equal, bilingualism is advantage that helps you get ahead. Now Quebec being what it is, I think it tends to generate more functionally bilingual people then any other province. I've never met someone who was fluent (written and oral) in both French and English who wasn't either from Quebec or New Brunswick.


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## bob the piper (25 Feb 2005)

rw4th said:
			
		

> I've never met someone who was fluent (written and oral) in both French and English who wasn't either from Quebec or New Brunswick.



You've obviously never been to Manitoba. Something like 50 000 people here have French as their first language and almost all of them speak English too. I'm in a French Immersion high school in Winnipeg with 550 kids and there are about 7 other schools like it in town. Everyone at these schools is fully bilingual and 95% of them learnt French as a second language. I'm sure there are many more places like this, especially along the Ontario/Quebec border too.


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## rw4th (25 Feb 2005)

> You've obviously never been to Manitoba


Well, you're right, I haven't been to Manitoba. I just never met anybody in the army who was fluent (I do say FLUENT, not just functional) in both languages who wasn't originally from Qc or NB. 

I wonder if the gov has any actually statistics on this. Might help elucidate this mystery.


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## Torlyn (25 Feb 2005)

Pieman said:
			
		

> Makes sense, I wonder if statistics on french/english ratios to rank in the CF would be available, possibly through access to information act...would be interesting to see.
> (Torlyn, you got some spare time?)



Do I have spare time...  What, you think that I've got all this time in the world, that I can sit around and look this stuff up?  Sigh...  You're right.  The best I got was the language that was put down as "first official" on application, and that's 28% french, and 72% english.  (The CDN ratio is 24-76, so not too far off.  HOWEVER, according to the DND, "Representation of Francophones and Anglophones in the CF has changed little during the past 10 years, however, the proportion of French-speaking members at senior rank levels has nearly doubled in the same period".  This was written in 1996, leaving us two conclusions.  One, francophone officers are more capable than their english-speaking counterpoints, or they get promoted more because of their abilities in both languages.    Better pay attention in the FSL courses, eh Pieman?

T


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## Pieman (25 Feb 2005)

> One, francophone officers are more capable than their English-speaking counterpoints, or they get promoted more because of their abilities in both languages.    Better pay attention in the FSL courses, eh Pieman?


Ah, crud....I was planning on using that time to consume large quantities of Guinness. Nice work Torlyn, you shall receive a pint of Canadian in wages for your labour.

So it would seem there is an aura of truth to the grumblings of the old veterans that were at this dinner party, just not for the right reasons....maybe I will take a French course or two before I get to BOTC.


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## bob the piper (25 Feb 2005)

rw4th said:
			
		

> I just never met anybody in the army who was fluent (I do say FLUENT, not just functional) in both languages who wasn't originally from Qc or NB.



Most of the people I was talking about are fluent. They've been speaking French since they were 5 and use it for 7 to 8 hours out of 8 during the day. Some of them speak French better than English, myself included.



			
				rw4th said:
			
		

> I wonder if the gov has any actually statistics on this. Might help elucidate this mystery.



There's about 60 000 people in MB who speak French as a second language if that helps.


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## MdB (25 Feb 2005)

Pieman said:
			
		

> Ah, crud....I was planning on using that time to consume large quantities of Guinness. Nice work Torlyn, you shall receive a pint of Canadian in wages for your labour.
> 
> So it would seem there is an aura of truth to the grumblings of the old veterans that were at this dinner party, just not for the right reasons....maybe I will take a French course or two before I get to BOTC.



Actually, beer and second-language course (after class hours preferably) really get along well. Hmmm, that's one thing I loved and still love learning German.

Cheers, Prost, santé!! [insert beer smiley]


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## Jungle (26 Feb 2005)

MdB said:
			
		

> Cheers, Prost, santé!! [insert beer smiley]


Here...


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## big bad john (26 Feb 2005)

Guinness!!!!! Jungle did I see Guinness!!!


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## Jungle (26 Feb 2005)

big bad john said:
			
		

> Guinness!!!!! Jungle did I see Guinness!!!


Yes my friend. Some would like to think it's cola... but it is definitely Guinness!!!  8)


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## big bad john (26 Feb 2005)

Mothers Milk!


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## Pieman (26 Feb 2005)

Ahhh, Guinness. Nectar of the Gods.

The memories, Guiness I miss you so. I have not had a Guinness since...since...last night! But that is way too long.


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## big bad john (26 Feb 2005)

The only things that I have put my foot down on so to speak on my upcoming wedding is a decent Piper, (still looking) and a few kegs of Guinness.


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## TR23 (2 Mar 2005)

I was wondering if anyone could clarify a small detail for me.   I have read in several places that Int Officers are frequently promoted from NCO Int Op.   Now, that being the case, does that mean that most Officer in the trade were former NCOs, or are most commisioned from ROTP, or DEO? 
If someone was really interested in becoming an Int Officer would they be best to aim for a component transfer from another position as an Officer, or would they be best to enter the forces as an NCO, learn a trade, then transfer to Int Op, then aim for training and promotion to Officer?
Please excuse my lack of knowledge, I am civilian, not serving in the forces, but I am interested in potentially joining.   Analyzing and information collecting have always interested me, and I'm simply hoping to learn a little about the trade.   I have read several of the threads here at army.ca, and if my questions were answered somewhere else and I missed them I apoligize in advance.
Thanks


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## Acorn (2 Mar 2005)

There has been an increase in NCMs getting commissioned, but it's nowhere near "most" officers in the branch. Most officers are reclassified from other officer classifications, and an increasing number are off the street.

Acorn


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## TR23 (2 Mar 2005)

Thanks Acorn.  I appreciate the info.  If you don't mind me asking....do you enjoy your job? find it interesting? a lot of the same old, routines, repeating things....or is it a lot of changes, looking at new things, ideas and information?


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## Acorn (2 Mar 2005)

Yeah, I like my job. There's lots of variety, though not all parts are what could be called fun or exciting. Change is a big thing, and like any typical large org it can take a while to shift direction. 

Acorn


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## TR23 (3 Mar 2005)

Thanks for the insight, it's great to talk to someone who actually is doing these jobs right now.  Thx again.


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## ReadyAyeReady (4 Mar 2005)

I was told by a recruiter from 2 Int Coy that a common route is to join a Int unit as a Reserve Int Officer and then transfer over to Reg Force after a few years.  Apparantly a fair number of Reserve Officers do this every year...The recruiter told me that they usually pick the top candidates each year for such transfers...sounds pretty competitive...

The recuriter also told me that even as a Reserve Int Officer you can expect alot of work...


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## Korus (4 Mar 2005)

In the reserves, even as an NCM, you can expect a lot of work once you're trained.

As for going into res INT directly off the street, I'd highly recommend going into another trades for a couple years first. Trust me, it's HARD to learn the ropes if you're fresh off the street. Transfering from another trade gives you a much greater appreciation for how they work.


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## ReadyAyeReady (4 Mar 2005)

"As for going into res INT directly off the street, I'd highly recommend going into another trades for a couple years first. Trust me, it's HARD to learn the ropes if you're fresh off the street. Transfering from another trade gives you a much greater appreciation for how they work."

Thanks for the advice Roko...

I've also been told however that transfering from one trade to another can be next to impossible as units like to hold on to their people...is this true in the intelligence case as well...say I were to join infantry and then I wish to transfer over to Int later...how tough is it?


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## George Wallace (4 Mar 2005)

The Intelligence Trade prefers you to have some time in the Cbt Arms, so you can pick up knowledge of Tactics, Weapons, Map Using and hopefully a keen interest in AFV Recognition.  They put a high value on the all skills you learn in the Cbt Arms to make you a more rounded operator.  As an Int Op you will have to know the language of the Cbt Arms as you will be briefing Generals as well as Officers and Snr NCOs.


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## oittoi (27 Apr 2005)

Hi.  I've gotten alot of  good information conerning reserve recruitment in the past and I have another question concerning DEO.  Anyone's comment, I would really appreciate.  Well, I have read and searched all the forum pages and I still can't figure out how reserve DEO training and promotion works.  I now know that DEO cadets have to go thru BOTP(R) first.  Then they go thru CAP(R). (Am I correct? ???) 

My questions are:

1)when do you exactly get commissioned as 2nd Lt?  After BOTP or after CAP?  If it's the first case, do you then get right to become lieutentent after finishing CAP?  Sorry if It's a dumb question...
2)I've read all these phase I,II, III stuff, and I can't figure out how they fit into these training... I just assumed that BOTP means Phase I, CAP as Phase II, and so on.  Am I correct?  Then what is Phase III? I assumed phase III must mean something like training for particular trade.  Does that mean 2nd Lts don't have any detailed knowledge about their trade before going thru that phase?
3)I've read some postings that BOTP runs parellel with BMQ and then has an attached several days for leadership training.  Some regiment homepages say they have weekend BOTP, while some postings here says BOTP runs in summer only.  Which is true?  Can I take BOTP and CAP just like routine training&parading at my armoury during the weekend, or do I have to commit full time during the summer for several weeks faraway?

Thanks alot!


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## Eowyn (27 Apr 2005)

oittoi said:
			
		

> Hi.   I've gotten alot of   good information conerning reserve recruitment in the past and I have another question concerning DEO.   Anyone's comment, I would really appreciate.   Well, I have read and searched all the forum pages and I still can't figure out how reserve DEO training and promotion works.   I now know that DEO cadets have to go thru BOTP(R) first.   Then they go thru CAP(R). (Am I correct? ???)
> 
> My questions are:
> 
> ...



This is what I understand from dealing with Junior Officers at my unit.

Q1.  If you have a degree, you will be enrolled as a 2Lt.  If not, you get commissioned after CAP.  There isn't a CAP(R) anymore.

Q2. Phase I and II, under the RESO trg plan, would now be BOTP (R) and CAP.  Phase III would be the first trade specific course.

Q3.  You can take a weekend BMQ with the leadership elements added on.  I haven't heard of a stand alone BOTP (R) for awhile.  You would have to take CAP in Gagetown.  I think they are modularizing it into 2 week blocks.


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## oittoi (29 Apr 2005)

Eowyn, thanks alot   If they're modularizing CAP into 2week blocks, how long is CAP as a whole?  Does that mean I can take CAP in pieces instead of taking the whole thing in one summer?


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## Eowyn (29 Apr 2005)

oittoi said:
			
		

> Eowyn, thanks alot    If they're modularizing CAP into 2week blocks, how long is CAP as a whole?   Does that mean I can take CAP in pieces instead of taking the whole thing in one summer?



From information I have received from my unit, and info from here, CAP is 10 weeks, broken into 5 x 2 weeks blocks IIRC.  I would suggest that you get as much done at one time as you can.  It could take up to 5 years only taking it in 2 weeks.  That's an awfully long time, IMHO, to be a OCdt/2Lt without the trades training.


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## oittoi (30 Apr 2005)

5 years for CAP!   I'll make sure I finish that in one summer if my civ job permits. (max 2 summers, maybe)


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## oittoi (3 May 2005)

Another question. actually 2
1) Is there any weekend training for CAP like BOTP? 
2) As a reserve, I will put my best effort to train once a week and one weekend a month minimum requirement,and I think I can manage that.  I think I can do more than that, and place at least 2-3 weeks during the summer for the military.  But my job probably will require me to make trips (foreign countries, time to time) ranging from a week to a month. And I might have such trips at least once a year.  I read from other postings that you have to go every training days and that if you miss two consecutive days, you are listed as ??????  (i forgot the exact term).   Is that a strict policy, or is there any chance of flexibility?  For example, if I have to make a trip for two weeks, I will have to miss like 3 training.  Can I make up for that afterwards or train more days during the summer to fulfill 45 days/year minimum requirement, or should I reconsider joining the reserves?  thanks


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## Eowyn (3 May 2005)

oittoi said:
			
		

> Another question. actually 2
> 1) Is there any weekend training for CAP like BOTP?
> 2) As a reserve, I will put my best effort to train once a week and one weekend a month minimum requirement,and I think I can manage that.   I think I can do more than that, and place at least 2-3 weeks during the summer for the military.   But my job probably will require me to make trips (foreign countries, time to time) ranging from a week to a month. And I might have such trips at least once a year.   I read from other postings that you have to go every training days and that if you miss two consecutive days, you are listed as ??????   (i forgot the exact term).     Is that a strict policy, or is there any chance of flexibility?   For example, if I have to make a trip for two weeks, I will have to miss like 3 training.   Can I make up for that afterwards or train more days during the summer to fulfill 45 days/year minimum requirement, or should I reconsider joining the reserves?   thanks



Q1  Not that I have heard.  It's full time, 2 week blocks in CFB Gagetown (at the moment).

Q2  As an officer, you are expected to parade more than the minimum.  You have to lead from the front.  In my unit, you are expected to make at least 75% of the training.  The term is Non Effective Strength (NES).  I believe NES is now missing 4 or 5 consecutive training periods.  Yes there is flexibility, you need to keep your chain of command informed and you can request Execused Drill and Training (ED & T) for when you are gone for longer periods.  It would be hard for you to make up the training because as an untrained officer, you would need to be there.  I doubt the unit would try and find instructors just for you.

As an aside, even though it's called a training or parade night, most of the time, I'm doing planning and preparation for the weekend exercises.  I don't train, as much as the troops.


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## Ralph (27 May 2005)

I'll be in the window for a promotion in a few months (taking for granted I pass Ph. IV ), but that timing coincides with my anniversary date and move to another incentive level. My questions are:
If getting promoted drops you to the basic incentive level at that new rank, would I remain at the pay I'm getting now, before the promotion (taking for granted you can't ever make less as a result of a promotion)? 
Would it behoove me, money-wise, to wait on a promotion until I go up an incentive level (a difference of a couple weeks), or is that even possible? I've heard of "some guy who knows somebody" who did this - it disgusts me on some level to think like that, but I have several mouths to feed and another $100 after tax a month would make a big difference...


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## shadow (27 May 2005)

Promotion from which rank to which rank?
Vested rights guarantees your current rate of pay, so not sure why your pay would go DOWN on a promotion?  Usually a promotion comes with a pay raise...


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## Inch (28 May 2005)

You will start at the basic incentive unless that is less than what you're making right now. Once you are promoted, that becomes your new incentive date. So no, you will not get an incentive a few weeks after getting promoted, your next incentive will be one year after getting promoted.

Now, if it was the other way, ie you get an incentive before a promotion, then yes you would get two pay raises. But again, your new incentive date will be the day you're promoted.

Example, you're a Pte 2, you're due for an incentive on the 1st of June and a promotion on the 15th of June. You would get the incentive and paid as a Pte 3 until you're promoted, at which time you would go to Cpl Basic since that's more than Pte 3. 

Clear as mud?


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## Vigilant (7 Jul 2005)

I believe you need 3 years in before you can remuster into Intelligence.


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## Acorn (7 Jul 2005)

Vigilant said:
			
		

> I believe you need 3 years in before you can remuster into Intelligence.


Reg force you need QL5A qualification in your original trade, so usually 4 years minimum.

Acorn


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## The_Falcon (15 Jul 2005)

shadow said:
			
		

> Promotion from which rank to which rank?
> Vested rights guarantees your current rate of pay, so not sure why your pay would go DOWN on a promotion?   Usually a promotion comes with a pay raise...



If you look at the pay tables you can see it is possible
http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/dppd/engraph/home_e.asp?sidesection=3
Example:
Reg Force
2Lt Pay Level C, IPC 2($3806/month) and up makes more than a Lt Pay Level C, IPC Basic ($3579/month).

As Inch already stated though, if you found yourself in that situation you keep the higher IPC level.


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## Greywolf (21 Jul 2005)

I've done searches on this topic and have found conflicting information.  

For Reg Force,

Is there a minimum time in for each rank before one can be promoted?  

I've read that a private can get accelerated promotion after 3 years to corporal.  But I've also read someone say he got promoted from private to corporal after 2 years.  After corporal, does one need to be in that rank for at least 2 years to be considered for promotion.  I've also heard that one can only get accelerated promotion once in their career, is that true?  After attaining the rank of corporal, is accelerated promotion still possible?

I'd also like to know if it's possible for a private to get commissioned (if one has all the prerequisites other than not having been in the military for that long).


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## PViddy (21 Jul 2005)

on the topic of promotion.

I am interested in knowing what some of the traditions are in regards to recieving your commission, specifically Airforce but other info is welcome.  
I have heard of the usual buying rounds and such but am just curious if anything else exists?

regards

PV


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## DAA (22 Jul 2005)

CFAO 49-4 is still in effect as far as I can tell.

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/049-04_e.asp

For the quick low down, have a look at Annex A, Table 1 and Table 2.

Enjoy.


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## Vigilant (22 Jul 2005)

Yes, it is possible for a Private to get commissioned. However, your service as a Private would now be taken into consideration as well.


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## Gunner98 (22 Jul 2005)

I witnessed a Pte Med Tech apply last year and he was accepted as a MARS Offr. MARS is actively seeking applicants every year (the occupation for sure, maybe the planet as well.)  He did have a degree in Psychology which did not hurt his application.


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## Greywolf (22 Jul 2005)

Hmm...I have a degree in Psychology... :


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## SigPigs (28 Jul 2005)

Yes there are minimum time in ranks. Pte is a bit of a different bag but you shouldn't see anyone promoted faster than 3 yeras unless under a different enrollment plan. FOr a MCpl it is 2 yrs in rank, Sgt 3, WO 2 yrs and such.


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## reccecrewman (1 Sep 2005)

As an added sidenote to this but still on the same topic, I've heard from a WO in my unit say that in the 1980's, he had seen A Tpr. (Pte.) get promoted to MCpl.   This kinda stunned me, don't know if he was pulling my leg or this actually happened.  Can any old Armoured guys substantiate this??? CALLING YOU GEORGE WALLACE!!!!!  ;D


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## Gunner98 (1 Sep 2005)

In the combat arms during the 80's it was quite common for a soldier to be prmoted from Pte to MCpl under the Delegated Authority Promotion System (DAPS) - required 40 months in trade and be 5B qualified.

From the Somalia report - the nails in the coffin of the program: "The Delegated Authority Promotion System (DAPS) promoted less experienced soldiers to master corporal - an important position, representing the first level of leadership in the Canadian Forces. The CAR abused the DAPS by using it to avoid posting in master corporals from parent regiments, in order to promote internally. Due to the lack of mobility of personnel among the CAR's three commandos, this practice meant that DAPS appointments in the CAR were much less competitive than those in parent regiments. Cpl Matchee, for example, was appointed to master corporal through the DAPS, even though he had not been successful in competition with his peers; he had recently participated in the Algonquin Park incident of October 3rd; and his platoon second in command and his platoon commander had raised concerns about the appointment and actually questioned his suitability for deployment to Somalia."


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## reccecrewman (2 Sep 2005)

Ah! So, it wasn't just a case of an old WO telling a tale to a youngster.............. Thats interesting.  Thanks alot for the info.


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## George Wallace (2 Sep 2005)

reccecrewman said:
			
		

> As an added sidenote to this but still on the same topic, I've heard from a WO in my unit say that in the 1980's, he had seen A Tpr. (Pte.) get promoted to MCpl.     This kinda stunned me, don't know if he was pulling my leg or this actually happened.   Can any old Armoured guys substantiate this??? CALLING YOU GEORGE WALLACE!!!!!   ;D



Yes it did happen.   In many cases people on some of the SYEP employment programs were being brought in to the Regs and many of them went through the DAPs program (What I witnessed 2 RCR do in 83-84).   In some cases it worked, in others it seemed unfair, as many older, more experienced people were passed over.   You still see the older more experienced people being passed over today, so it really shows how little we have changed.   You can look within your (our) Regt and see guys taken off Med Cat to get promoted Sgt, or the Cpl promoted MCpl and put immediately on a year long French Language Crse, no leadership time in the troops and then on return to the Regt put on a 6A and promoted on graduation.   Some times there is no God.   We are going through one of those cycles now.   If that is what the Regt wants for leaders, that is what they will get.   I am always reminded of an old VO 5 commercial when I think of our promotion of incompetant people:   " ...and I told two friends, and they told two friends, and they told two friends........" and soon the screen is full of numpties.


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## DG-41 (2 Sep 2005)

> I am interested in knowing what some of the traditions are in regards to recieving your commission, specifically Airforce but other info is welcome.
> I have heard of the usual buying rounds and such but am just curious if anything else exists?



It's usually tradition to buy a round for the mess upon promotion. 

I also obtained a silver dollar shortly before commissioning, and gave it to the first corporal/private/trooper who saluted me once comissioned.

DG


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## medicineman (2 Sep 2005)

I remember guys I joined with in the late 80's that went to the PPCLI - a couple went straight from Battle school to their ISCC.   These were older guys that showed alot of obvious leadership potential so they decided to use it.

Working at RMC, you could get rich at grad time - just hang out and wait for the young wiggly woggllies after their commissioning, because, as mentioned, it is tradition for the first person to salute them as officers to receive a silver dollar.

MM


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## reccecrewman (2 Sep 2005)

> Working at RMC, you could get rich at grad time - just hang out and wait for the young wiggly woggllies after their commissioning, because, as mentioned, it is tradition for the first person to salute them as officers to receive a silver dollar.



Really??? Interesting................... Lets see now, gas is $1.20 per/L,say 300 or so km's to Kingston from Pet............. F*** it, it aint worth it  ;D


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## GO!!! (2 Sep 2005)

Ptes have been promoted to MCpl in more recently than the nineties, in most cases with individuals who had completed leadership trg in the militia, and then component transferred. 

These "quick picks" seem to fare disastrously poorly, as the troops in the units who are passed over are sweeping the floor with the guy one day, and sweeping for him the next. They usually have to be sent to another Bn, or a school, in order for the people they work with to respect the rank, and not the man.

There are exceptions though, some quick picks have gone Pte - Sgt in 5 years, and done very well, while others have been posted almost immediately after promotion, once their leadership ability vice their leadership potential had been properly assessed.

Pte. have also completed all of the Mod trg, and become eligible to be promoted as recently as last year. This has not happened yet, probably due to a glut of leadership qualified Cpls in line ahead of them.


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## PViddy (2 Sep 2005)

> It's usually tradition to buy a round for the mess upon promotion.
> 
> I also obtained a silver dollar shortly before commissioning, and gave it to the first corporal/private/trooper who saluted me once comissioned.
> 
> DG



Great, i had heard of the silver dollar, would be done as a presentation in front of the unit or...kinda just pull somone aside?

thanks for the info

cheers


PV


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## DG-41 (3 Sep 2005)

It was done on the spot, and I had a little fun with it.

"YOU!!!" (soldier freezes) "Do you know what you just did!?" (no Sir!) "You're the first soldier to salute me since my comission. This is for you."

That worked in my case because (as ir happened) my first salute came from a fresh Pte right off of Basic - we both got a laugh out of it. You might want to try a different approach if your first salute comes from a crusty old Cpl with more tours than you have pairs of underwear. 

But however you handle it, you do it on the spot. That means obtaining the dollar and carrying it on you in advance of your comission so you don't get caught without it. "I owe you a silver dollar" is VERY bad form.

DG


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## pbi (4 Sep 2005)

DG-41 said:
			
		

> It was done on the spot, and I had a little fun with it.
> 
> "YOU!!!" (soldier freezes) "Do you know what you just did!?" (no Sir!) "You're the first soldier to salute me since my comission. This is for you."
> 
> ...



I still remember giving the silver dollar to the first soldier who saluted me at Gagetown after my Grad from Infantry School: I think it was an RCR soldier (The troops in 2 RCR were savvy to this practice: I think they staked out the area at Grad time...) A fine old practice, whose origin I have no idea of.

Cheers


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## SprCForr (4 Sep 2005)

Dagnabbit! I spent 17 years posted to Chilliwack and never realized that! I could'a been rich!

Ooooo, them dirty rotten CFOCs critters!

 ;D


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## James (12 Oct 2005)

After breezing through the link posted above, I got curious of what the different requirements were to be promoted through the different ranks of officer. Well, when I started digging I found this: http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/qr_o/vol1/Ch012_e.asp#12.01



> Officers shall be promoted in rank in accordance with orders and instructions issued by the Chief of the Defence Staff.



 ??? ??? ???

What does that mean? Are there no time limits or leadership courses that are mandatory?


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## Old Sweat (12 Oct 2005)

James,

This gives the CDS the final say in establishing the criteria for promotion, free from political interference, or at least that is the intent. In its early years the army in particular was patronage ridden and plagued by the political party in power at the time, promoting its friends in both the regular force and the reserves.

To get back to the main thrust of the discussion, if you read the statement, you will see that the CDS has the authority to direct, delegate and supervise the professional development of officers. The statement does not mean that there are no controls, quite the contrary.


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## Bloggins (12 Oct 2005)

For each promotion you do need a prerequisite amount of time in rank. And with the exception of Cpl you require a leadership course. As far as I know in the regular force you need three years time in as a Pte after completing DP 1 in order to be promoted to Cpl. After that you require PLQ and 2 years time in rank to be eligible for Mcpl (by which time you should have completed DP 2). Then 2 more years in rank with DP 3A you are eligible for promotion to Sgt. 3 years time in rank with ALQ and DP 3B and you are eligible for promotion to W.O. After that 2 years time in rank with QL 7 (the QL 7 hasn't changed yet) and you are eligible for promotion to MWO. They have just come out with a course for the appointment to RSM and I a do not know what it is called. Keeping in mind that after promotion to Cpl you require to merit for each promotion. As well promotions can be back dated. Now as for accelerated promotions and DAPS to the best of my knowledge this is how it works. In order to be DAPS'd it has to be justified with course reports and assessments and sent higher. A soldier is only allowed one  DAPS in their career. As far as accelerated, a soldier can be accelerated every other rank if they merit it. And as for the practice of DAPS and accelerated promotion we are not unionized and the best man gets the job. Our units depend on the quality of person. If a particularly smart, driven and fit young person is more capable of doing the job than someone who has been in a bit longer there is no reason to hold the young soldier back.

Cheers.


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## Pte_Martin (12 Oct 2005)

Greywolf said:
			
		

> I've done searches on this topic and have found conflicting information.
> 
> For Reg Force,
> 
> ...




It also depends if you have done other service for example if a reserve cpl transfers to the regs usuallywill get promoted faster


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## Greywolf (20 Oct 2005)

Hmm...sorry...what's DAPS?  That's not the same thing as accelerated promotion?


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## jwsteele (21 Dec 2005)

I have a question about this.  The staff really never explained the process to us at St.Jean.  I am an OCdt and realize that when I graduate I will receive my commission to 2Lt and then Lt shortly after but who decides when you get promoted thereafter and what are they looking for?  Surely it can't just be time put in=promotion.  This was never described to us.


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## 735_winnipeg (21 Dec 2005)

i'm in the reserve, from what i can see it's time in plus training courses passed equals promotion.  might be the same for regs.


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## George Wallace (21 Dec 2005)

Everyone in the CF is promoted on merit after their initial promotions to Cpl or Lt, depending on whether they are NCMs or Officers.   Your Unit and Trade will have Merit Boards annually and everyone in your Trade will be Merit Listed.   A certain percentage (changes every year) are then promoted.   

Merit Boards start within the Unit, and then culminate with a Merit Board with the Career Managers in Ottawa, for everyone in your Trade.   It is like a pyramid, in the way that the selection is done, from unit to the final Merit Board in Ottawa.   From this Merit Board the Career Manager will send out the messages that promote people.   

In the Combat Arms, all the Regimental/Bn/School COs and RSMs have seats on the Merit Boards in Ottawa, along with a "Fair Dealer" (Officer and CWO from another Trade), and they will go through all the candidates several times to pick those to promote.


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## cdnsignaller (21 Dec 2005)

Omg, i was in in the early ninety's and remember these Merit Boards.

Sounds like a delgation of Amway distributers HAHAHAAHA :dontpanic:


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## jwsteele (21 Dec 2005)

All makes sense now.  Are you allowed to turn down a promotion?  What if you're happy as a Captain and don't want to be a Major...can you just say no?  Also I've heard that to get to the senior officer ranks that you need to take a bunch of administrative and staff courses and possess a masters degree.  Do you take these before a promotion to improve your chances or are they mandatory after you recieve it?  I personally woudn't like to be much more than a Captain and get stuck behind some desk or even worse NDHQ and eating lunch at Rideau Center everyday expanding the waist size.


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## MattyH (21 Dec 2005)

Please tell me you don't need a masters to get in to the senior ranks!

As far as being promoted to Lt... I'm going for Armour, DEO. Do you get to Lt. after battle school or is it after your first overseas trip? Thanks


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## TangoTwoBravo (21 Dec 2005)

JSweetle,

What program are you in?

Once you are commisioned (2Lt) it is one year plus your DP1 qualification (MOC qualified) to Lt and two more to Capt.  RMC grads generally get promoted to Lt in May of the year following their graduation from RMC (since they get commissioned upon Grad from RMC and they usually finish their MOC training in the summer).  This means that RMC grads are usually 2Lts in their Regiment for about a year (they get their in Sep).  DEO people are usually promoted to Lt upon graduation from MOC training since their clock started upon grad from St Jean (since they already had a degree).  

Promotion to Major is based on the merit list as George described.  Once you enter the promotion zone (based on the minimum time in rank) you are "merit listed" within your MOC.  You are "ranked" among your peers and as promotions come up the top of the list gets promoted.  Your place on the list depends on a host of things such as:

   a.  your last three PERs (Performance Evaluation Reports)

   b.  your Potential which is based on elements of your PER plus a host of other things (second language, education, professional development (courses), etc). 

To be honest I don't know if you can turn down a promotion but I suppose it could be possible.  Bear in mind, as a combat arms officer your continued service in your profession depends on getting promoted.  By this I mean that you can't be a Troop Leader or Battle Captain/Battery Captain for life.  Everyone gets posted out of the Regiment sooner or later and generally to return requires getting promoted.  You could end up at a staff job for ten years as a Captain or a Major.

Regarding courses, for most officers you get to Captain on your DP1 training.  I think that the artillery have some extra stuff but I must admit I never paid attention.  Captains take ATOC in Gagetown and AOC in Kingston.  Those, plus your OPMEs are your required "courses" for Majors.  

Matty H,

When you finish DP1 (used to be called Ph IV) at the Armour School you could be promoted to Lt if you are DEO and have commissioned for at least a year already.  Your first posting should be as a Troop Leader for at least two years.  This timeframe could include a deployment but this has nothing to do with promotion.  You don't need a Masters to get promoted to Maj but it is worth "points" at the merit board.  

Cheers,

2B


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## Dog (21 Dec 2005)

Is it the same sort-of deal for NCM's?


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## jwsteele (21 Dec 2005)

2Bravo, to answer your question, I am ROTP civi U and my trade is Infantry.   I will be graduating from university in June of 2007.   The information I've been given is that once BOTP is complete and I have a degree I will recieve my 2Lt commission which means that will be in June 2007.   I also understand that 2Lt is like a probationary period and you are promoted to Lt within a year regardless and that Captain natually follows within 2-4 years.   Thanks for the information on how the merit listing works but what I don't understand is why they would promote a really good battle Captain in his prime to Major etc and stick him in an admininstrative job.


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## TangoTwoBravo (21 Dec 2005)

Dog,

In principle yes.   Getting to Cpl requires time (four years) and qualifications (usually your DP1 training plus some extra MOC specific stuff) after you've gotten to the Regt).   After that it takes time in rank, qualification (courses) and merit listing to get promoted.   Getting to MCpl requires your PLQ course, although support trades sometimes get promoted "acting/lacking" which means they get promoted but have to take the course within a certain time.   Getting to Sgt requires the DP3A course (although some trades may well have extra courses in there), while WO requires the DP3B and the ILQ.

Getting PLQ and then promoted to MCpl is the first big promotion hurdle.   For combat arms NCMs the PLQ course is a critical step.   You usually get on that course as a result of being merit listed high enough within the Regiment (as a Cpl).   This in turn in based on your performance and perceived potentia (in the eyes of the chain of command but particularly the SSM and RSM).   

Others here can elaborate better than I can but I hope I gave you the 5 cent tour.

Cheers,

2B


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## TangoTwoBravo (21 Dec 2005)

jwsteele (sorry I spelled your name wrong up there),

In theory, you should be promoted to Lt in June 2008 and Capt in June 2010.

The danger of a Battle Captain suddenly getting promted to Major is pretty low (you'd need some fairly high casualties).  In order to get the required PER scores to be considered you generally have to have completed the duties of either Adjt, Ops O or 2IC HQ Sqn/Admin Coy.  You only get these after completing Sqn/Coy level Capt jobs and there would usually have been an ERE somewhere in there (extra-regimentally employed).  Once you've been an Ops O/Adjt/2IC HQ at the Regt/Bn you generally get posted out as there are no other Capt jobs to do and there are people coming up behind you.  The only way to come back is to get promoted and be a Sqn/Coy OC.

A Captain's career could look like this:

   a.  year one to three of being a Captain - posted to the School as an instructor or a reserve unit as RSS

   b.  year four to six of being a Captain - posted back to the Regt.  Yr 1 Sqn BC, Yr 2 Sqn 2IC, Yr 3 Ops O

   c.  year seven to eight - post out of the Regiment for two years at a senior Capt staff job and then (hopefully) promotion

Not all may get to Ops O, Adjt and 2IC HQ.  Some may never get promoted and once posted out will not come back.  You might see "streamers" who skip out on the first Capt ERE and steal a march but that depends on the Regiment.

For now, just focus on getting through university and your training in Gagetown.  Then focus on doing your best as a Platoon commander.  The rest will either happen or it won't. 

Cheers,

2B


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## TangoTwoBravo (22 Dec 2005)

Reading my last post again this morning, I'd like to add a couple of things.

My timeline starts once the young officer has completed his first "tour" at his Regiment, which can be anything from two to three years.  For ROTP people getting posted after three years will also usually coincide with getting promoted to Captain.  Infantry officers tend to stay at their Regiment for a few years after being a Platoon Commander, so their timeline will be a little different.

Cheers,

2B


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## jwsteele (22 Dec 2005)

2Bravo, thanks very much for taking the time to provide those answers.  It doesn't get any clearer than that.


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## Acorn (26 Dec 2005)

jwsteele,

Here's a bit of advice from one of the other ranks (NCM - WO) - decide what you aspire to. I'd offer that aspiring to be a Capt is not setting your sights very high, especially if you're Infantry. You should, IMO, *aspire to command  * - at least to command a Company, which means you will be a Major. If you want to be a Commanding Officer strive to become a LCol. That means lots of schools, lots of effort, lots of time in the "staff jobs" you say you don't want. In today's infantry, as a Capt, you won't be commanding much unless there's lots of attrition. Don't assume that as a Major you'll be stuck with admin jobs (you will, but you can also command a company - ask some of the posters here - like Devil39 - what that feels like, in combat).

You're joining at an exciting time for the infantry junior leader (the section commander (sgt) and platoon commander (lt)). The majority of your superiors for the next couple of years will have no combat experience at the junior level. You have an opportunity to get that experience now, and use it to your betterment and the benefit of your men when you achieve Command. Don't seek to stay at a low level for your own benefit/gratification.

Good luck,
Acorn


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## jwsteele (26 Dec 2005)

Acorn, thanks for the reply.  All you say makes sense.  I intend on making  a career out of the CF and do aspire to become a Colonel or something one day but my restless nature never wants to see me put behind a desk for very long.  Thanks again.


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## Dog (31 Dec 2005)

Sorry to give this one a shove back in the direction of NCM's... I've come across a few references in the media of "MCpl bloggins who has been in the military for 14 years.".... am I staring at a bleak career of little mobility? The prospect of being a Mcpl after 14 years in the infantry is bloody discouraging to say the least... when I see things like that it gets my mind racing about what else I could do with my life after my VIE.

I joined excited at the possiblity of starting a career of possibility am I kidding myself?


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## Gunner (31 Dec 2005)

If you want to be further in your career after 14 years place a lot of effort in developing yourself intellectually, physically, and professionally.   A little effort can go a long ways...

With the upcoming expansion of the CF as well as the older demographic currently serving, I have no doubt that a capable soldier will be pushed up the ranks very quickly if they show the ability to do so. 

Remember, the only career manager that you have is yourself.


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## SeanNewman (1 Jan 2006)

2Bravo breaks it down quite well, but to add to that, the date they go by is usually the date of commissioning.  Once you graduate Ph4, they retro-date it so if you're a DEO, even though you did 2+ years as a 2Lt, that turns into 1 year 2Lt (on paper) and then 2 years as Lt.  Unless you're a problem child, Captain will come after three years of being commissioned.  

As far as turning down a promotion, it is a bigger deal than those above make it out to be.  It automatically gets forwarded straight to the CDS level for investigation.  As stated above, Captain is usually automatic, but after that, Major is hard enough to make that if you aren't trying for it, I promise you won't be offered a promotion.  There are several things that give you points toward promotion (education, career courses, command time, french profile, etc), and all you have to do is show any lack of interest.  There are a lot of very switched-on Captains competing for the extra skinny bar, because it's a very significant jump (much more than 2Lt->Lt or Lt->Capt).


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## Roy Harding (1 Jan 2006)

Dog said:
			
		

> Sorry to give this one a shove back in the direction of NCM's... I've come across a few references in the media of "MCpl bloggins who has been in the military for 14 years.".... am I staring at a bleak career of little mobility? The prospect of being a Mcpl after 14 years in the infantry is bloody discouraging to say the least... when I see things like that it gets my mind racing about what else I could do with my life after my VIE.
> 
> I joined excited at the possiblity of starting a career of possibility am I kidding myself?



Perhaps the viewpoint of a recently retired NCM, then, regarding NCMs.  (No offence to my Air Force and Navy brethren, but I'll speak as a soldier - I assume something similar is true in your own services)

When I first joined, a bunch of us young Ptes were sitting around, discussing the best way to get promoted.  Our crusty old RSM overheard us, snorted, and delivered this little piece of advice:

"You can only get promoted six times in this man's army, and if any of YOU lot think you'll see all six then you're in for another think.  If the only day you're going to be happy is the day you're promoted then most of you are only going to have one or two happy days in your entire careers.  Stopping worrying about things you can't control and get the f**k on with it"

He was right.

If you are in the CF for the love of soldiering (no matter your trade) you will instinctively do those things that are required for promotion - out of the pure love of it.  You will expand your professional and trade knowledge on your own, you will push yourself to new limits physically, you will assist others in doing the same, you will cheerfully assist your superiors in achieving their aims, and you WILL be noticed doing all these things.  You just won't care about the notice, and your subsequent promotions will come as a surprise to you.  When you eventually retire (no matter your rank on retirement), you will remember your service with pride - you will remember all the things you accomplished, and all the good times you had.  You'll use the skills and experience you gained in the military and get onto to something else just as productive and rewarding.  You'll remember your life as being full, exciting, and enjoyable, and you'll look forward to the rest of your life as a civilian with equal fervour.

If you are in the CF to "plot your way to the top" you will be waiting for a promotion after doing "all the right things".  If it doesn't come you will back up and try something else, you will repeat this process again and again ad nauseum until you DO get promoted - then you'll start all over again plotting for the next rank.  In all this plotting and striving you will be watching your peers, wondering how _THAT thudf**k_ got promoted ahead of me, when _everybody knows_ that I'm better.  You will begin to believe that the system is corrupt, the Officers, Sr NCOs, and WOs are idiots, that there is a "Regimental Mafia" that protects their "Golden Boys", and you WILL become extremely bitter.  When you eventually retire (no matter your rank on retirement) you will remember your service with bitterness, you will remember all the things you weren't allowed to do, and all the lousy duties you had to pull.  You won't think that what skills you acquired in the military are of any use on civvie street (you'll be wrong, but you'll still think it), you'll get yourself into some dead end drone type job, and the cycle of bitterness you created in the military will be transferred to your new civilian career.  You'll remember your life with bitterness, regret, and disillusionment.

It's your call - I'd suggest that if your only reason for joining the military is to "get ahead", and you define "getting ahead" as being promoted, then you look elsewhere.  If you aren't in this for the love of soldiering, then don't get in.  This isn't a "job" you are contemplating - it _IS_ a lifestyle, even if that has become a cliche.

Good luck to you, in whatever you decide to persue.


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## a_himself (1 Jan 2006)

Yeah I'm a little confused about how it all works myself.  I'm still officially a private, yet I've been getting paid Corporal wage for 4 months or so lol.


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## CanadianBoy92 (1 Jan 2006)

If i was infantry and made sergeant, and wanted to stay sergeant for the rest of my career could this be done?


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## Roy Harding (1 Jan 2006)

a_himself said:
			
		

> Yeah I'm a little confused about how it all works myself.  I'm still officially a private, yet I've been getting paid Corporal wage for 4 months or so lol.



If you're reg force, look here:  http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/049-04_e.asp
The basic outline is at Annex A - there are a couple references to ADM(HR) Instructions which I do not have access to, as they are are on the DND Intranet.  

I cannot speak to your pay inquiry - I'm out of date by two years now, and a lot has changed.  You're unit OR will be able to help you out with that.

Good Luck to you.


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## Roy Harding (1 Jan 2006)

CanadianBoy92 said:
			
		

> If i was infantry and made sergeant, and wanted to stay sergeant for the rest of my career could this be done?



Short answer:  Yes.  CFAO 49-4, Annex E states:

RELINQUISHMENT OF RANK



23. For the purposes of this Annex, relinquishment of rank means reversion to a lower rank at the member's request. Such requests may be for personal reasons or for purposes of OT or transfer. The approving authority for relinquishment of rank is N DHQ/DPCAOR.

24. Relinquishment of rank will not be approved where such action would permit early release of the member as a result of a change in the member's retirement age.

25. Except in the case of a transfer or OT, a member who relinquishes a rank shall not be considered for promotion until such time as the promotion authority is advised through normal channels that the member wishes to be considered for promotion in the future.

I've known guys who've done it and been quite happy.  I've known guys who've done it and regretted it.  Keep in mind that this decision will usually result in you not attending career courses, or most "nice to have's".

Good Luck to you.


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## CanadianBoy92 (1 Jan 2006)

Thanks for that.  I will stay at sergeant.  I always wanted to know this, and Ive always just wanted to be sergeant. thanks.


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## Pte_Martin (1 Jan 2006)

CanadianBoy92 said:
			
		

> Thanks for that.  I will stay at sergeant.  I always wanted to know this, and Ive always just wanted to be sergeant. thanks.



I'm just curious, you 're not in the CF yet are you? Why do you want to be just a sergeant? Do you know what they do?


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## CanadianBoy92 (1 Jan 2006)

I have an idea of what they do.  Don't they lead a unit.  I want to be one because of what i see them do in movies.


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## Pte_Martin (1 Jan 2006)

This is off of http://www.cflc.forces.gc.ca/pubs/RUSP/skills_e.asp?who=sergeant#sergeant and it describes a Sergeant duties as

manage time and resources productively and efficiently 

achieve a high level of quality control in all activities 

conduct effective training in either theoretical skills or in group practical skills 

assess performance and counsel subordinate staff 

assist in the selection and guidance of leading hands 

receive instructions from a superior and plan work priorities and resources to achieve a goal 

give clear and concise instructions to subordinates to achieve a team objective 

be responsible for the administrative requirements for a group of up to 30 people 

apply safe practices in the workplace 

apply and administer codes of conduct and behaviour in the work place 

act as a member of a junior management team 

care and account for stores and equipment 

Hope that helps and good luck


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## George Wallace (1 Jan 2006)

CanadianBoy92 

You have just come off of verbal warning for posting like you have today.  You have been warned of the consequences.  Your next promotion will be from Verbal to C&P or perhaps a complete Ban.  Do You Understand?  

Do not answer this question, but show that you do understand, by reading the forums, more than posting on them.  The answers to your questions are already found in other topics and posts.  Please research them there.

You still have many years to go before you can contemplate joining the Canadian Forces, so conduct your research quietly for a couple of years, and perhaps by then you may have a better picture of what it is that you want.


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## Dog (2 Jan 2006)

Roy, I knew I'd get a response like yours... and I knew someone out there would assume I'm merely a promotion-seeking opportunist. Believe me, I'm not, and I realize that not every man who joins the infantry is going to see the rank of WO. If I were interested only in rank and promotions, or working a regular "job behind a desk" I'd join as an officer   . 
But I am getting married (no, please... no applause.... oh really... well, thank you very much) and there are most likely kids in the future.... and it just seems to me that after 15 years I'd hope that I'd be able to afford it. While it's not too bad money for someone like myself, I'm looking at being able to care for more than just myself.

I know someone who's been in the reserves for 4-5 years and he's a MCpl... what I'm hearing is that he'll transfer to the RegF and, even if he never gets promoted, he will still outrank me until I'm 40 years old. Would it just be a smarter move for me to get out after my VIE, join the reserves for 5 years and then rejoin the regs?


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## Roy Harding (2 Jan 2006)

Dog said:
			
		

> Roy, I knew I'd get a response like yours... and I knew someone out there would assume I'm merely a promotion-seeking opportunist. Believe me, I'm not, and I realize that not every man who joins the infantry is going to see the rank of WO. If I were interested only in rank and promotions, or working a regular "job behind a desk" I'd join as an officer   .
> But I am getting married (no, please... no applause.... oh really... well, thank you very much) and there are most likely kids in the future.... and it just seems to me that after 15 years I'd hope that I'd be able to afford it. While it's not too bad money for someone like myself, I'm looking at being able to care for more than just myself.
> 
> I know someone who's been in the reserves for 4-5 years and he's a MCpl... what I'm hearing is that he'll transfer to the RegF and, even if he never gets promoted, he will still outrank me until I'm 40 years old. Would it just be a smarter move for me to get out after my VIE, join the reserves for 5 years and then rejoin the regs?



I'm glad to know I'm predictable.

Read my post again - I did not assume that you were a "promotion-seeking opportunist".  Then read it again, and note what I said about promotions - if you love what you're doing, they will come.

The days of Corporals needing to go to food banks are long past (if they ever actually existed), the wages and benefits of the CF are very good - you certainly won't get rich in the military, but your family will always have a roof over its' head, food in its' belly, and live in fairly comfortable circumstances.  And, should you stay the course, you'll have a pension which is the envy of many civilian wage-slaves.  In other words, you will achieve at least a modest middle-class standard of living.

I don't understand your example of a res MCpl transferring to the regular force (probably in the rank of Cpl, but each case is different), and then outranking you until you're 40 - can you expand on that for me?  It sound like your basing your estimate on unsound assumptions - or I haven't received all the facts.


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## Patrolman (2 Jan 2006)

DOG,
 Getting promoted in the reserves is completly differen't than in the regs. Promotions come fast in the reseI  regsrves not so much in the regs.Transferring from the res to regs won't work either. As mentioned already you will drop in rank and have to prove to your new unit you deserve the promotion, That is of course if they even recognize your courses from the res.
  I did my leadership course after 3 and a half years but based on the promotion system I could not be promoted until I had enough yearly assessments to be merited. The system can be very discouraging for young soldiers wishing to be leaders.
  Sorry to tell you now but the PPCLI tends to progress a lot faster than the RCR.


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## Dog (2 Jan 2006)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> I'm glad to know I'm predictable.
> 
> Read my post again - I did not assume that you were a "promotion-seeking opportunist".  Then read it again, and note what I said about promotions - if you love what you're doing, they will come.
> 
> ...



I'm glad that you're glad  ... 

I'm sure that SOMEONE out there saw my post and thought "promotion-seeking opportunist." who knows....

I do sincerely believe that soldiering is the life for me, so it's good to know that promotions will come with a good work ethic and pleasure in what I do. I don't expect to get rich, but I do want to be able to do what you have stated in your post above, it's good to hear; thanks for your input, it makes me feel better about my choice... something my family has been making me second guess.

As for my example of my friend, the Res Mcpl, transferring to the reg force and outranking me until I'm 40... well if I won't be a Mcpl until I'm 40 (I'll be 25 at the end of BMQ... +15 years to be a Mcpl, as per my example from earlier= 40yrs old) if the res Mcpl transferred he would not be transferring as a private, he says he would be transferring as a Mcpl.... get where my thinking went? So my question (rhetorical, as it's something I will never do) was would I be able to be promoted faster if I left the regs after my VIE, joined the reserves to get promoted much faster, and then transfer back into the Regs?
Patrolman, your post didn't really clear anything up for me... are you saying that regardless of how many courses you have, or how switched on you are, or how good you are... you can not get promoted before a certain time?


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## CanadianBoy92 (2 Jan 2006)

Hey Roy, congratulations on the engagement!


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## Roy Harding (2 Jan 2006)

CanadianBoy92 said:
			
		

> Hey Roy, congratulations on the engagement!



 ???


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## CanadianBoy92 (2 Jan 2006)

Sorry I mean congratulations dog on the engagement. :-[


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## Roy Harding (2 Jan 2006)

Dog said:
			
		

> I'm glad that you're glad  ...
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



I find it doubtful that a res MCpl would transfer directly as a reg MCpl - not impossible, but unusual.

Promotions are funny things - they depend on your personal qualities and drive, opportunity (IE - getting loaded on the "right" courses), vacancies being available, and a little bit of luck.

My own case may illustrate my point.  I went from Pte to Sgt in 8 years from '82 to '90.  Not bad for a CSS troop.  I then remained a Sgt for 11 years.  In my 19th year of service (2001) I was promoted WO.  A LONG time between promotions.

I have a friend who joined (same trade) at around the same time.  His career was pretty much the inverse of mine at first.  After 12 years he was "still" a Cpl.  Things then started to move, now at the 24 year point (he's still in) he's a WO, looking forward to MWO.

What were the differences??  Opportunity, mostly.  I spent my entire career (with 2 exceptions) in fd units.  He spent most of his (until lately) in Garrison.  For CSS troops there are many more opportunities to "shine" (or "crash and burn") in fd units.  I went on many tours (probably because I was in fd units) - he has one tour in Bosnia.

The point I'm making is this.  In all that time, my friend and I remained friends.  We didn't see each other as being in "competition" with each other, despite what the system might tell you.  We both remained fairly happy (usually) with our lot in life, and were happy with our accomplishments.  When we occasionally got together (geographical separation made this the exception rather than the rule) we respected each other and our various accomplishments.  He knew MUCH, MUCH more than I about R&D, Releases, and Records (the mainstay of our trade) - I knew MUCH more than he about operational planning, fd work, and improvisation.  We both learned from each other.

It's worth noting as well that while I was "hard charging" in the early part of my career my marriage took some extreme hits - I am very lucky to still be married to my very forgiving and understanding wife of 25 years.  If I have regrets, it's that I wasn't around much to help raise our three boys - she did a damned good job without me.  My friend, on the other hand, was usually home, involved with raising his family, and has a relationship with his kids that I admire.

I don't recommend your thoughts of "component hopping" from Reg to Res and back.  Despite what you've told me, I'd be extremely surprised if your MCpl friend actually transfers into Reg as a MCpl - unless he has a whack of Reg force courses and Class C under his belt.  Why don't you sit back and watch what actually happens when his transfer comes in?

In the meantime - love and enjoy what you do, you'll be a happier man (and a better soldier) for it.

Good luck to you.

Edit:  grammar


----------



## Scott57 (2 Jan 2006)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> Promotions are funny things - they depend on your personal qualities and drive, opportunity (IE - getting loaded on the "right" courses), vacancies being available, and a little bit of luck.
> 
> My own case may illustrate my point.  I went from Pte to Sgt in 8 years from '82 to '90.  Not bad for a CSS troop.  I then remained a Sgt for 11 years.  In my 19th year of service (2001) I was promoted WO.  A LONG time between promotions.
> 
> ...



Bang on Roy. My career path was similar to yours. Pte to Sgt in 8 yrs ('75 to '83). Remained a Sgt for 9 yrs, a WO for 8 and another 5 as MWO. This whole issue is also very trade dependent. That was not lost on me when I was posted from 1 Svc Bn Calgary to Cold Lake in '80. It was very common to see 25 year Cpl's and MCpl's in some of the hard Air trades. Their trades tended to be older while CSS and Cbt Arms tended to be younger. I recall a number of "friendly" arguments in the Mess (as a very young Sgt) as to the reasons this existed .... age factor/ CSS vs hard Air Trades/ complaceny (i.e staying in Cold Lake/ Bagotville) etc etc..  

Hopefully I've done this quote thing right ... :threat:


----------



## Roy Harding (2 Jan 2006)

Scott57 said:
			
		

> Bang on Roy. My career path was similar to yours. Pte to Sgt in 8 yrs ('75 to '83). Remained a Sgt for 9 yrs, a WO for 8 and another 5 as MWO. This whole issue is also very trade dependent. That was not lost on me when I was posted from 1 Svc Bn Calgary to Cold Lake in '80. It was very common to see 25 year Cpl's and MCpl's in some of the hard Air trades. Their trades tended to be older while CSS and Cbt Arms tended to be younger. I recall a number of "friendly" arguments in the Mess (as a very young Sgt) as to the reasons this existed .... age factor/ CSS vs hard Air Trades/ complaceny (i.e staying in Cold Lake/ Bagotville) etc etc..
> 
> Hopefully I've done this quote thing right ... :threat:



HA!!  I remember similar arguments in the Edmonton Sgt's Mess!!  (My first posting as a new Sgt was to an Air Sqn - not a good place for a cocky new Sergeant, fresh from the Airborne Regiment!! (And it provided me with a great opportunity to "crash and burn", which I took full advantage of.))  I used to tell them that there were only 2000 of "them" (Air Force), and one of me - they should surrender as they had no chance of winning.  When I returned to Edmonton in '96 (when it went Army), I took great delight in telling the remaining airmen in the mess that they should have listened to me!!

To get back to the topic at hand - you're right - promotions are also very trade dependent.  In the case of the troop who asked, he's Infantry - historically a fairly fast moving trade - so that shouldn't be a negative factor in his case.


----------



## Armymedic (2 Jan 2006)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> I find it doubtful that a res MCpl would transfer directly as a reg MCpl - not impossible, but unusual.



Never seen it. At best they would get made up after 1 yr as a Cpl.


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## George Wallace (2 Jan 2006)

Armymedic said:
			
		

> Never seen it. At best they would get made up after 1 yr as a Cpl.


I have to agree with this also, from my limited experience.  Unfortunately the 'Bovine Scatology' factor is always in effect when some 'pose' statements or a similar problem in discussions like this.


----------



## Roy Harding (2 Jan 2006)

Armymedic, George Wallace:

Agreed - I would have stated such, but I've been out of the loop for two years now, and I'm aware how fast things can change, so I tend to soft-pedal my perceived knowledge.


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## Patrolman (2 Jan 2006)

Patrolman, your post didn't really clear anything up for me... are you saying that regardless of how many courses you have, or how switched on you are, or how good you are... you can not get promoted before a certain time?
[/quote]
 Let me try to explain.there are certain requirements that soldiers must meet before promotions can take place. Promotion to Cpl. is a given after 4 years. Anything after that you have to earn it. In the infantry these days you are placed on leadership courses based on meriting within your battalion. Being a good soldier in areas of competence,physical fitness ,placing well on courses are all things that will help you merit better

 When I joined things were a bit differen't. I arrived at my unit in May of 97. May 2000 recieved an excellerated promotion to Cpl. October 2000 placed on a pre leadership course with 25 or other Cpl.'s with varying levels of experience. We were competing for six positions on an upcoming JLC/JNCO course. IN the end I was selected to attend the course having performed better than some of those older CPL's.
  
Upon completion of my course I went into a Leadership role. Sounds good right. Not so much. In the mean time these old Cpl's With 15 years in finally got on course and began to be promoted while I looked on. Why you might ask? I only had 4 years in the army and had not recieved any PER's. Without PER's you cannot merit on the promotion board. The older guys had several, so as soon as they recieved their course they were pushed past me on the merit boards. After eight years sevice I was Finally promoted to MCpl.

 Don't be dicouraged though the infantry has now started to let Pte.'s with extreme leadership potential attend leadership courses. Work hard stay out of trouble and prove you better than the guy next to you and you will get your chance to be a leader. Just remember it is not the mvies and we are not involved in a war such as WW2 so promotions tend be slower.

 So yes promotions take time, but if you are switched on  do well on courses,stay fit prove your potential things will go faster.


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## Dog (2 Jan 2006)

Thanks for all the great responses, guys, Roy in particular.... you've provided me with a lot of information that I've been curious about but never thought to ask my recruiter. 

As an aside, I think this was a textbook hijack, performed masterfully by someone who's never really done it before...  ;D

I'll step aside now and let the officers at it again.


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## Roy Harding (2 Jan 2006)

Dog said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> As an aside, I think this was a textbook hijack, performed masterfully by someone who's never really done it before...  ;D
> 
> I'll step aside now and let the officers at it again.



You know what?  You're right - I hadn't even noticed.  

Well done you - see what you can accomplish when you pursue something for the love of it??

And you're right - let's let the officers have the thread back.

Gentlemen:  OTYO.


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## MdB (10 Jan 2006)

Huh, direct on the topic here... As I am from Quebec and francophone, I guess I'm targeted as a potential infantry officer troublemaker... gosh, it's silly...

Tell me if the author is freak or if it really reflects the reality in the CF. (Don't think it's that bad... man, linguists! ???)

Enjoy!



			
				http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/westview/story/3254086p-3767921c.html said:
			
		

> No French, no job?
> Official bilingualism can bring careers to a dead stop
> 
> Tue Jan 10 2006
> ...


----------



## Fusaki (11 Jan 2006)

Here's some food for thought:

One of my previous PL WOs is fluent in both english and french and said that in 1 Vandoo it helped him quite a bit. While most troops had to compete for spots on courses offered only in their native language, he was able to attend both english and french serials. He had more opportunities to get loaded on course then most other guys, and this helped him to advance his career.


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## Hansol (11 Jan 2006)

well, this may seem strange, but why not just learn French...?


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## Journeyman (11 Jan 2006)

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> He had more opportunities to get loaded on course then most other guys, and this helped him to advance his career.



Hmmmm...getting loaded while on course doesn't seem to have helped me that much  ;D

As for the language thing, I moved in with a girl from Quebec - - beats classroom learnin' all to hell~!


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## Bruce Monkhouse (12 Jan 2006)

Oh yea,...I can guarantee you I learned more going to visit my future wife in Montreal on weekends than I did during the week on my course in Pet.


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## Douke (12 Jan 2006)

Learning a functional French really isn't that hard, it is very similar to English. It is gramatically perfect French, with all it's exeptions that is a huge challenge, but fortunatly I don't think you need that in the CF.

Being native from Quebec and bilingual myself (it is easier for us, as pointed out, because we live in an English world. With an occasional trip to the US or Ontario and basic English classes I ended up bilingual before I was 18), I beleive the regiments in places other than very francophone regions should not be required to be functional in French. But maybe im not representative of most French Canadian's opinion, I beleive we should all be speaking English anyway (not forget French, but English should be the only official language of Canada, two official languages seem to create a huge bureaucratic weight and alot of injustices created to avoid other injustices)...

Douke


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## Bruce Monkhouse (12 Jan 2006)

While I am an English guy from the heart of English Ontario who thinks all our kids should be brought up to speak both French and English.
Just one more world advantage we can give our children.....


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## Hansol (12 Jan 2006)

Yes Piper, I learned some spanish. It really isn't that hard. As for money? drop $75 next time you are at Chapters and get a phrase book and some cds. Then listen to em all the time... unless that is too difficult. But to me it seems really simple: if you want a promotion, learn french. Just another one of those things you need under your belt, like a QL3 course or whatever. Cheers -Cameron


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## MdB (12 Jan 2006)

Greatly said Bruce!

The French community is a integral and important part of what is Canada. There's francophones from Newfoundland to Vancouver (and probably even Victoria) and small communities in most big cities. It's really not a matter of pragmatism or functionnality, otherwise we would all speak the same language. The matter is French is a part of Canada and there's cultures attached to and created by this language. Learning french (or english for me) is only the least we can do to learn and have an insight of what's the other's language and culture. This creates unity and the fact that officers (and public servants) are required to master the basics in the country's second language is also a matter of unity. Let's say an anglophone goes to (or has to work with) the R22eR, what's he to do if he doesn't speak french? If a CO has to command some french unit while on deployment? That's also why it is important to learn french.

Side note: go see Maurice Richard, you'll all learn some things about the not always funny french-english relationship in Canada. This Irwin had a freakin leadership and courage.


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## Glorified Ape (17 Jan 2006)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> While I am an English guy from the heart of English Ontario who thinks all our kids should be brought up to speak both French and English.
> Just one more world advantage we can give our children.....



Ditto, Bruce - hell freezes over once again as we agree on something. While the restrictions on advancement in government seem a bit extreme, I wholeheartedly support the education of our populous (especially children) in French. Considering it's one of the most widespoken languages, it's not only an advantage in Canada but around the world. Other languages being taught would be great, too, but there's a limit on the time and money available to the education system. 





			
				Snaky said:
			
		

> I speak french and im in R22eR, i understand the english lang but i dont talk this, i want learning the english fir help me in my carreer  and for operation with other army in the world. the english is the first lang in the army and all french could be learning the english. im not very good for writing the english, sorry but i try to communicate with all guy in this website for practice the english!!  my english is not very good!!



I (and I would guess just about everyone else here) have no problem understanding you. Your english is better than some anglophones, so don't be too hard on yourself. Making the effort and practicing is essential to learning a new language - keep it up.


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## Gunnar (17 Jan 2006)

I think the choice to promote bilingual officers everywhere makes sense.  If official bilingualism is the way things are, then it is entirely possible that an officer will be given troops at some point that don't speak his mother tongue.  Since Canadian troops can speak *either* language, officers must be prepared to lead in either language.  I would suggest this is less of an issue for NCM's and general troops.

Speaking out of my nonexistent experience, I would suggest that since NCMs are supposed to be in the trenches, that it makes sense that they may not necessarily speak the other language.  However, officers, who may be trying to coordinate a battle plan between armour, infantry & etc., need to be able to explain what's going on to other officers, then go and explain it to the troops.  The officer caste is supposed to be (ideally) around 5 percent, the brains of the organisation...if the brains can only talk to other brains, or only the right side of the body...then the body, i.e., the infantry, doesn't move very far.

Imagine, in a war....Capt. Jean-Guy, Lieutenant Jean-Baptiste, and OCdt Gaetan Trebuchet get offed in an enemy barrage.  There are three perfectly suitable officers at HQ, but instead of sending them, they let the NCMs handle things without officer supervision....because those suitable officers don't speak french.  That's a waste of resources.  I submit that it is easier to replace recruit Bloggins, Smith and Jones with recruit Simard, Aresenault, and Boucher than to replace officers in this way...and then, only if necessary...because usually the troops outnumber the officers, and there's less of a bottleneck for troop positions.

All hearkens back to the caste system, and the purpose each of these castes has to serve.


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## mustang82 (17 Jan 2006)

OK, I had to add my two cents to this as an anglophone from Toronto who is now serving in a francophone regiment.  Being bilingual does not guarantee that you will be promoted faster.  I know quite a few bilingual officers that are going nowhere in the CF.  Officially, bilingualism will give you 2 extra points for NCMs and I believe 3 points for officers, but unofficially it will do the following:
1. As mentioned earlier, you can attend courses in English or French, doubling your chances of getting more qualifications.
2. You have many more positions outside of the regiment that are available, and since extra-regimental postings (ERP) are more and more important for career advancement for both officers and NCMs, you have better chances of moving up.

Cheers.


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## Procrast (24 Jan 2006)

Hey i'm new to the board i quickly looked down the forum without finding the answer to my question.

How does the promotion system work? (officers)

is it with time like 2ndlt to lt 2 years ; lt to cpt 2 years?

or is it merit?


thanks in advance to whoever answers my question!


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## Inch (24 Jan 2006)

Depends on a few things.

Air Force works like this, you must be MOC qualified to be promoted. Once you are then it's 1 year at 2Lt and 2 years at Lt, then you're promoted to Capt. If you're delayed in training, those times become retro active. IE, the time starts when you're commissioned, not when you're MOC qualified.

There are of course a million other scenarios like former NCMs that take a commission, etc.


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## Procrast (24 Jan 2006)

Hey thanks! oh 1 more thing this may sound out of the blue but is it true that say you get a university degree before you join and you get your masters you join as lt and as such you skip 2ndlt?


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## George Wallace (24 Jan 2006)

Did you read that somewhere?


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## Procrast (24 Jan 2006)

I'm not sure i believe i heard it from a friend that join the reserves.But i came here to confirm this?


Thanks!


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## George Wallace (24 Jan 2006)

Procrast said:
			
		

> I'm not sure i believe i heard it from a friend that join the reserves.But i came here to confirm this?
> Thanks!



Ah! The friend of a friend source.

Well......I did a little research and Merged these topics together for your reading pleasure, so give it a read.  After that, if you have any questions, try using the Search Function at the top of the page.

Have fun.


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## gnplummer421 (26 Jan 2006)

I have a comment on the issue of DAPS (Pte to Mcpl) It happened in my old unit (82-91 Hussars) Some of the guys that DAPS'd did very well and carried themselves professionally. However, the odd one slipped through the cracks that would get thinking that now that he was promoted he was king s**t on turd mountain and start powertripping. As I mentioned in one other post, that happened to an old stubborn Veh Tech Cpl with about 20 yrs in. He was working away on this broken down vehicle, when the young freshly DAPS'd Mcpl came over and started piping off to the old salt. The Cpl stood up, looked at the young whippersnipper, and gave him a shot to the snotlocker. When DAPS complained to his Sgt, he was told; "did you learn anything from that?" and laughed at him.

So yeah, it was good and bad, depending how you look at it.

Gnplummer


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## NavyGuy2006 (20 Mar 2006)

I have been curious about how roughly long it takes to get from able to leading and from leading to master and then to petty 2nd. Help would be appreciated


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## Michael OLeary (20 Mar 2006)

Since you weren't specific and your profile is empty, I have based an assumption that you mean Regular Force on the little information in your previous posts.

CFAO 49-4 -- CAREER POLICY NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS REGULAR FORCE
http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/049-04_e.asp

See:

ANNEX A -- PROMOTION -ELIGIBILITY CRITERIA
TABLE 1 -NORMAL PROMOTION -- ALL MOC EXCEP DENTAL, MAR ENG, AND MUSICIAN MOCS


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## Melbatoast (20 Mar 2006)

Very basically, from OS to AB in 30 months, AB to LS in 48 months (although that can be advanced or accelerated depending on your performance).  Anything after that is not time dependent, but is instead qualification and performance based, although you need at least two PERs to be considered for MS (i.e. at least two years after promotion to LS).  You could be an LS for your whole career.  

The CFAO posted has all the other details and qualifiers and exceptions, but that's a basic outline.

Interestingly, I got "accelerated" to AB by almost 3 months because the CO wanted to give me a Christmas present!  Of course not really accelerated, because there is no such thing to AB, and my effective date was as it should have been...


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## Leonidio (22 Jun 2006)

Hey everyone.I have a question that im pretty sure is hard to answer,but who ever has knowledge in this,it would help.
Does anyone know,or has an idea of what is the trade that has the highest promotion rate?
Thx


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## 17thRecceSgt (22 Jun 2006)

Underwater Basket-Weavers, without a doubt.


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## pbi (23 Jun 2006)

Leonidio said:
			
		

> Hey everyone.I have a question that im pretty sure is hard to answer,but who ever has knowledge in this,it would help.
> Does anyone know,or has an idea of what is the trade that has the highest promotion rate?
> Thx



Well-what do you mean? How many people get promoted, or how fast people get promoted? My guess is that for speed it is one of the Cbt Arms, probably Infantry which has historically promoted NCOs/WOS and Offrs much younger than most other trades. Promotion in the support MOCs, which are much smaller than Inf, are generally slower. For percentage who get promoted my guess is the Musician Branch in which as far as I can see just about everybody is a Sgt.

Cheers


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## TangoTwoBravo (23 Jun 2006)

This may look like prying, but why do you ask?


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## Leonidio (23 Jun 2006)

Me and some guys I trained with debated on this.I believed it was infantry.Some1 told me that clerks had a good promotion rate,is that true?


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## navymich (23 Jun 2006)

From the clerks I know and talk to, it is one of the worst trades to be in if you want to advance past Cpl/LS rank.  There are so many people in the trade, they are waiting for the old ones to die or retire.  You have to remember too, that RMS clerk is the amalgamation for Fin and Admin clerks, so it is quite a top-heavy trade.  On the other hand, if you want to do something where you will always have a job, clerk is the trade for you.


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## Trinity (23 Jun 2006)

I'd say Chaplains have a great promotion rate...

One could be a major after 5 or 6 years.


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## Armymedic (23 Jun 2006)

pbi said:
			
		

> Well-what do you mean? How many people get promoted, or how fast people get promoted? My guess is that for speed it is one of the Cbt Arms, probably Infantry which has historically promoted NCOs/WOS and Offrs much younger than most other trades. Promotion in the support MOCs, which are much smaller than Inf, are generally slower. For percentage who get promoted my guess is the Musician Branch in which as far as I can see just about everybody is a Sgt.



Currently, I would have to disagree. It seems support trades are promoting at a rate faster then the cbt arms, as most of its senior people are getting out. It would be an inersting debate, as I am sure there are not too many people who would know the true hard facts on this one.


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## aesop081 (23 Jun 2006)

Armymedic said:
			
		

> Currently, I would have to disagree. It seems support trades are promoting at a rate faster then the cbt arms, as most of its senior people are getting out. It would be an inersting debate, as I am sure there are not too many people who would know the true hard facts on this one.



In my MOC...most people make SGT in 3 years....i'd say that pretty fast !!  But then again, its somewhat of a different situation.  I mean 3 years in the trade.


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## 17thRecceSgt (23 Jun 2006)

Heck, that IS pretty fast!  And you drop down to Cpl Base, with no Spec at first do you  not??


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## orange.paint (23 Jun 2006)

Armoured aint bad right now.
Air defence is apparently not good right now,a freeze on promotions from a bird gunner I was on course with.


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## aesop081 (23 Jun 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> Heck, that IS pretty fast!  And you drop down to Cpl Base, with no Spec at first do you  not??



Correct...you do not get into the specialist pay group until  the start of your wings course.  With the policy that came into effect in 2004 that is.


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## 17thRecceSgt (23 Jun 2006)

Spec 2 isn't it??


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## aesop081 (23 Jun 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> Spec 2 isn't it??



hahaha.......i wish !!


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## 17thRecceSgt (23 Jun 2006)

Oh.  That must only be the mutli-engine FEs then or something??

Not to take the thread ABSOLUTELY off target   :


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## aesop081 (23 Jun 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> Oh.  That must only be the mutli-engine FEs then or something??



FE in general....not just multi guys........


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## 17thRecceSgt (23 Jun 2006)

I think the general perception is that the Cmbt Arms trades promote the fastest, in particular the Infantry Corps, but I think some of the Navy trades are now promoting fast as well...if a trade is short, and they are offering bonus's to get people in, maybe those trades are the ones that are fast-movers?  

Any trade flagged Red would be you would think.


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## jc5778 (23 Jun 2006)

Ammo Tech is 2 years in rank for some.  We are so short right now it's not even funny.  There is someone I know that I suspect will be a Sgt with only 4 years in the trade.  This isn't the case for all of us but .......


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## 17thRecceSgt (23 Jun 2006)

uhhhhh, whats your MOSID again?  I am going to email me recruiter   ;D

Like I said, the perception is Cmbt Arms is the fastest but...


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## Arctic Acorn (24 Jun 2006)

Not too sound like too much of an egghead, but I believe the Service can expect an increase in the promotion rate across all trades, mainly due to the huge recruiting drive in recent years. Also, with the numbers of baby boomers retiring, that should open up the upper ranks for promotions. 
 :dontpanic:


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## Patrolman (24 Jun 2006)

With thhe creation of CSOR and the proposed Airborne Unit in Trenton I suspect Infantry promotions will be coming fast and furuios.


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## Armymedic (24 Jun 2006)

Patrolman said:
			
		

> With thhe creation of CSOR and the proposed Airborne Unit in Trenton I suspect Infantry promotions will be coming fast and furuios.



And infantry solely fill positions in those units?  :

Given that the majority of the positions (of ALL trades involved) are Sgt and below and still within trade, I can't see many promotions opening up


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## orange.paint (24 Jun 2006)

Armymedic said:
			
		

> And infantry solely fill positions in those units?  :
> 
> Given that the majority of the positions (of ALL trades involved) are Sgt and below and still within trade, I can't see many promotions opening up



I disagree.I only know 2 armoured guys TRYING out,meaning they havnt even made it over yet.Although I cannot offer excact numbers im willing to be at least 80 percent is from the infantry.

2RCR had a big drive for it didnt they patrolman?


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## 17thRecceSgt (24 Jun 2006)

Armymedic said:
			
		

> And infantry solely fill positions in those units?  :
> 
> Given that the majority of the positions (of ALL trades involved) are Sgt and below and still within trade, I can't see many promotions opening up



But...some folks are gonna have to fill the units up that they come from...which means movement and promotions in the loosing units...doesn't it??


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## Patrolman (24 Jun 2006)

I did not mean only infantry units would see an increase however, lets be realistic infantry will make up most of CSOR the same way they make up the majority of the assaulters in the JTF.
 Based on info fron the RCR career manager 3RCR is below 200 pers right based on the fact they lost so many members to CSOR.


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## Armymedic (24 Jun 2006)

rcac_011 said:
			
		

> I disagree.I only know 2 armoured guys TRYING out,meaning they havnt even made it over yet.Although I cannot offer excact numbers im willing to be at least 80 percent is from the infantry.



That would be 2 you know about. How about the other 3 armour regts? From the capbadges I have seen, I would say more like just over 50% is infantry. Do not forget you have 4 other cbt arms (Arty, Air defence, Eng and Armour). Lets not forget the close CSS types like sigs, medics and then throw in those guys who are not at all army. Plus reservists from all trades.



			
				Patrolman said:
			
		

> I did not mean only infantry units would see an increase however, lets be realistic infantry will make up most of CSOR the same way they make up the majority of the assaulters in the JTF.
> Based on info fron the RCR career manager 3RCR is below 200 pers right based on the fact they lost so many members to CSOR.



You would be corrrect to say that majority would be infantry, from all three regiments (9 battalions) and add in the reserves. 3 RCR has only lost 50-75 to CSOR. I think your career manager is missing the fact that the biggest drain on manpower in the infantry is releases, particularly at the Pte/Cpl Level.


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## armybuck041 (24 Jun 2006)

Well i'm not gonna speculate on which MOC promotes the fastest, what I will say is that there is two catagories to consider...

There are the MOC's that promote almost entirely on personal technical ability, and

There are the MOC's that promote on the basis of leadership potential as well as MOC specific tech ability.

Some of the MOC 640 series guys I work with get promoted with a "developing" leadership potential scored PER, but have all of their ticks on the appropriate boxes WRT courses. I have seen MCpl's and Sgt's in the tech trades who couldn't lead their way out of a wet paper bag, but were brilliant at the specifics of their work.

It almost makes me wish we had some different rank emblems that denoted a "normal" MCpl or Sgt and a different one for a Tech MCpl or Sgt kinda like the US did years ago. This is so people don't confuse a combat leader with a technician.

This isn't meant to be a dig at the tech/spec guys, just my take on how I view things lately.


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## Michael OLeary (24 Jun 2006)

armybuck041 said:
			
		

> It almost makes me wish we had some different rank emblems that denoted a MCpl or Sgt and a different one for a Tech MCpl or Sgt kinda like the US did years ago. This is so people don't confuse a combat leader with a technician.



Like a cap badge denoting trade?

What about an ex-Infantry Sergeant who remusters to a tech trade, how would you like to label him?

This sounds like a desire to create "second class citizens" among NCO ranks.  Of course, the viewpoint might be entirely reversed in a tech environment .... "Him, oh he just got promoted because he likes to yell at people, you can tell by the lack of the "tech device" over his hooks."


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## armybuck041 (24 Jun 2006)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Like a cap badge denoting trade?
> 
> What about an ex-Infantry Sergeant who remusters to a tech trade, how would you like to label him?
> 
> This sounds like a desire to create "second class citizens" among NCO ranks.  Of course, the viewpoint might be entirely reversed in a tech environment .... "Him, oh he just got promoted because he likes to yell at people, you can tell by the lack of the "tech device" over his hooks."



When its gonna count, he/she will most likely have a helmet on and not a baret 

Its not about labelling people as second class citizens and I didn't mean to come across that way.

I have worked with techs that almost felt that the leadership responsibilites that come with a promotion were almost a negative side-effect. Allot of these guys had no desire lead troops nor does allot of their MOC's require it. Some MOC's don't even start teaching man management skills until the 6B level. Its not dishonourable, its just a fact. 

Like I said, its not a stab at anyone. The US has Warrant Officers for almost exactly this reason.


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## Leonidio (25 Jun 2006)

Thanks everyone,I bagged alot of information


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## pissedpat (29 Jun 2006)

Promotion rates also vary dramaticly between reg force and reserves, plus every unit does things a little differently. In service trades (at least in the reserve world) you tend to see alot of people getting Cpl right around two years in, the minimum. But they often tend not to go above that. I guess once someone is good enough to do their job and leadership is not as essential as it is out in the feild killing people... I tend to see combat arm units keep more people at the Pte level but promote more of thier Cpls to masters and Sgts. But that is just my opinion.


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## Leonidio (30 Jun 2006)

I strongly agree with you,well said madpat. 





			
				madpat said:
			
		

> Promotion rates also vary dramaticly between reg force and reserves, plus every unit does things a little differently. In service trades (at least in the reserve world) you tend to see alot of people getting Cpl right around two years in, the minimum. But they often tend not to go above that. I guess once someone is good enough to do their job and leadership is not as essential as it is out in the feild killing people... I tend to see combat arm units keep more people at the Pte level but promote more of thier Cpls to masters and Sgts. But that is just my opinion.


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## TangoTwoBravo (1 Jul 2006)

Promotion to Cpl is based on time and qualifications.  Generally, after two years in the Reserves or four years in the Regs you get your Cpl if you are "trade qualified."  Being combat arms or CSS has nothing to do with it.

All units/trades have establishments which govern how many people can be at a certain rank level.

I really wouldn't worry about, as it all comes out in the wash.


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## Chewie (3 Aug 2006)

:warstory:One trade I know fisrt hand is the Electrical Generating Systems Tech.  For the last 6 yrs everyone I know in that trade has
done the minimum time in rank and has progressed to the next rank. They are a small trade in numbers and provide power using generators.
Anyone looking to join should check this one out because they are always looking for more techs.


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## armyvern (3 Aug 2006)

Chewie,

Is this the Chewie I know that always seems to follow me around on tours??   ;D What's it been 3 tours together now? Congrats on your promotion!!


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## Chewie (6 Aug 2006)

Hey Vern...LOL...Congrats on your promotion as well... 
we seem to be following each other...in rank as well lol
I hope you like the new posting..mine is great..
maybe we'll drive over and see you for a few wets


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## Lost_52 (12 Aug 2006)

OK, Im a Rifleman (Trained Private) in the infantry, reserve, ive got about a year in and want to go into the int trade as either an officer or nco, what should i do? should I go and get a degree from a university (im grade 12 now) or should i stick it out and remuster to int later and depending on which one how would i go about doing that?


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## George Wallace (12 Aug 2006)

Are you going to Vigilant Guardian?  If so, look up some of the INT people there and talk to them.  They will be able to paint you a better picture.  


You can also ask within your own unit and see what they can tell you about switching over.  If your unit is any good, they should be helpful in that matter.......maybe.   If you are in Ottawa, try the CFRC for information on how to contact the INT unit in that town.  The same can be said for the CFRC in Kingston.  What Unit are you now?

Without a University Degree, or a Civilian job in that field, it is unlikely that you can go officer.  Most Int Units prefer that you have some time in a Trade before joining their Branch, but some have also been known to hire University Students or other Qualified people right off the street.  High School students, seldom get hired directly into INT.


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## Lost_52 (12 Aug 2006)

yea im going to vigilant so ill try and look up some people there.

Im with the unit in Brockville right now so illtry and c what they can tell me, if anything  .  No the idea was that i would either wait the 3 or 4 years and remuster to int from infantry or go infantry until im in university then when im done university id go and try to go int officer.


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## George Wallace (12 Aug 2006)

Some advice right now.  Loose the msn speak.  INT Officers will not be permitted to use it, nor in fact will INT OPs.  Looks like you may have missed these when you registered last year:


MSN and ICQ "short hand" -  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33247.0.html

Regarding the use of "MSN speak" versus the employment of prose which is correct in grammar, spelling and punctuation, please see: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/34015/post-260446.html#msg260446

Army.ca Conduct Guidelines: MUST READ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937.0.html

FRIENDLY ADVICE TO NEW MEMBERS - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937/post-259412.html#msg259412


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## Lost_52 (12 Aug 2006)

yeah sorry. however a question I have is that would I be able to remuster to int from infantry after a couple of years? and if so are there any more courses in the infantry that I have to take to be qualified to remuster?


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## Blatchman (4 Oct 2006)

Good Day all


I am looking for the promotion criteria for MARS officers, do any of you know where I can find it on line?

thanks


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## SoF (4 Oct 2006)

There's a video on this link that might help  
http://www.recruiting.forces.gc.ca/v3/engraph/jobs/jobs.aspx?id=71&html=False&bhcp=1


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## Blatchman (4 Oct 2006)

Thank You


that gives the information on training but no information on what you have to do to be promoted from rank to rank 

I do like the sites new look though


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## Michael OLeary (4 Oct 2006)

CFAO 11-6 -- COMMISSIONING AND PROMOTION POLICY -OFFICERS -REGULAR FORCE

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/011-06_e.asp


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## Reven (4 Oct 2006)

Thanks for that video link.  That video must be pretty new.  I've seen the MARS intro video several times, and it was actually pretty sparse before.  The new one is well done.  Of course, I'm already sold hook, line, and sinker.


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## SeaDog (23 Oct 2006)

For MARS DEO:  Completion of basic training gets you your Acting Subbies.  Completion of phase training and successfully challenging an Officer of the Day board gets you your Subbies.  For Lt(N) you need time in rank, you need a Bridge Watchkeeping Certificate and you need to complete your NOPQ package and successfully challenge the board.  Pretty much the same for the RMC guys, if I recall, except they don't get their acting subbies after basic - they get them upon grad from MilCol.


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## OnTrack (23 Oct 2006)

"A bloody war or a sickly season"  :cheers:


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## Big Daddy142 (16 Nov 2006)

Hey everyone, I was wondering if changing regiments affects advancement and promotion for officers.  For example, if my first posting was with 5 RALC in Valcartier, then my second posting is most likely an administrative job outside the unit, NDHQ or reserve regiment, and after that for a third posting, if I were to go 2 RCHA in Pet would this affect my advancement and promotion??? Thanks a lot.

P.S. I would also be interested in finding out how it works for Arty officers, as in how long is your first posting at your unit, and what are typical admin jobs and their length. Thanks again.


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## Fishbone Jones (16 Nov 2006)

Noooooooo, of course it won't : Whatever gave you that idea?


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## hercboy (31 Jan 2007)

A question to anyone out there.  I ve heard rumors going in many different directions with regards to pay after wings.  My question is as a pilot are you garunteed captains pay after 3 years regardless if your winged or not.  So would you be getting backpay to the 3 year date?  Also as a 2Lt waiting training do you keep going up incentive levels, or are you only entitled to 1 incentive before wings.  Ive heard that some people get it some dont? No rhyme nor reason.  In my short time in ive learned never count on anything until you have it in writing, but none the less just wondering about the preceding questions, any help would be appreciated.


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## SupersonicMax (31 Jan 2007)

I asked this question to a clerk recently and dug the info for me.  Here's what he came up with.

We get incentive in the 2Lt Rank.  The normal progression is 1 year as a 2Lt, 2 years as a Lt and then Capt.  Depending how much time your training takes, you will be promoted to Lt or Capt upon wing grad with a back pay of the money you didn't get because of training.  You will be 2Lt for the whole training process up to the wings.  

For example.  You take 2 years to train.  You will be promoted to Lt and get a back pay for 1 year between 2Lt Incentive 1 and Lt pay.

In other words, you won't loose money because of training.  It's like you put the difference in pay in an account (without interest, of course) and take it out after you grad.

Max


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## Good2Golf (31 Jan 2007)

Chapter 204.2156 of the Compensation and Benefits Instruction provides the "legal" detail of the pay for 2Lt/Lt pilots.  It's best for you to discuss the details of sub-para (*8*) with a pay clerk in the unit's pay section, for confirmation of Supermax's info (which sounds about right, but don't be afraid to double-check.)

G2G


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## Roy Harding (31 Jan 2007)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Chapter 204.2156 of the Compensation and Benefits Instruction provides the "legal" detail of the pay for 2Lt/Lt pilots.  It's best for you to discuss the details of sub-para (*8*) with a pay clerk in the unit's pay section, for confirmation of Supermax's info (which sounds about right, but don't be afraid to double-check.)
> 
> G2G



As a retired RMS Clk - G2G has it right - never be afraid to double-tap.


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## Inch (1 Feb 2007)

I was back paid for 2 years as an Lt and 11 months as a Capt when I got my wings, just over $22,000 before taxes.

The catch of course is if you fail out, you get no backpay. Zero. So, no, you're not guaranteed Capt pay after 3 years, you only get that if you get your wings, otherwise, you start all over again in a new trade.

I was a 2Lt for 4 years, I got 2Lt Basic, IPC 1 and IPC 2 then I didn't get an incentive after that.


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## hercboy (1 Feb 2007)

One more Question, lets assume it takes 5 years to get ones wings.  So he would be paid 2 of those as a capt. Now, would this mean he would start at a Capt base, 1, or 2?  Also if one went through as scheduled (I know this will not happen more curiosity) say 2.5 years to wings, he would then get his Lt. for .5 of a year, than which incentive captain would he start at? Base or 1?


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## Globesmasher (1 Feb 2007)

Just like Roy and G2G suggested .... go to the source for this kind of information.

Go see your RMS clerk and the people trained to properly answer these questions.  Typically if you ask 6 people a question you're going to get about 7 different answers.  You don't ask your dentist about how to fix your car, or your mechanic how to invest for retirement ... so you may as well go see the RMS folks about financial details like this if I were you.

Just a suggestion is all .... don't take what you learn on forums as "gospel".  Don't go storming into your RMS section demanding stuff that someone told you on the forums, this one or otherwise.  It may not be correct.

Just a couple of cents for ya' is all.


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## Inch (1 Feb 2007)

Globesmasher,

Interesting you put it that way, since I was the one that took the CBI regarding LTA on Special Leave into the CSOR. They had no idea what I was talking about. I was in fact entitled to what I claimed and it took me and the clerks on IRO to get it sorted out.

So, no, I don't believe for a sec that a QL3 qualified Pte/OS RMS clerk knows more about my pay than I do (or should). In my experience, the only ones that knew pilot backpay in detail were the clerks in Moose Jaw, everyone else had no idea.

hercboy,

You always start at basic unless it's less than what you're making before you're promoted.


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## hercboy (1 Feb 2007)

Thanks for the response inch,  I have had some pay issues about them not knowing what i was entitled to, which has taken a year and a half to finally sort out, hence the reason i asked here hoping someone with recent experience could answer my questions.  By no means am I blaming the clerks, if there office is anything like ours they are probably severly understaffed.


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## hollywood13 (19 Feb 2007)

A little off topic, but does anybody know the regulations for Air Crew Allowances. Obviously im looking into it for the guys on OJT here at the Squadron. As OJTs we go flying in the aircraft as part of our job to learn... as well most of us are PFT bypass, or have completed PFT. Do you have to be a winged pilot, or on course to get the aircrew allowance? Typically the OJTs are going up flying twice a week, and for example I am doing a SAR exercise this week, where I will be lowered out of the Griffion etc. ... so if anyone knows the regs to getting aircrew allowance, please post


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## Zoomie (19 Feb 2007)

Hollywood,

You should be filling out a casual aircrew allowance form - all of our OJTers do it here at YQQ.

Every time you go flying, write down the K1017 number and keep a log.  At the end of every month get your DSOpsO to sign your form and send it up to the SOR.

No regs to state at the moment - this is SOP at every Wing in Canada.


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## x-zipperhead (19 Feb 2007)

I believe aircrew allowance is paid providing;
1. You are wings qualified
2. Posted to a flying position
3. Flying at an annual rate or awaitnig training 

The situation you describe (i.e. non wings qualified) sounds like you would receive Casual Aircrew Allowance $25-ish each time you go flying up to a mximum of the lowest incentive monthly allowance (currently $285).

I don't have a link for you for the CFAO or applicable Flying Orders as I am at home.


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## goler (19 Feb 2007)

K heres the CBI wrt Cas AC Allowance...

http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/cbi/engraph/home_e.asp?sidesection=6&Section=205.325&sidecat=22&Chapter=205#205.325

Under the eligibility, you can try and interpret it as best you can... but according to the CBIs, if you are acting as a pax, no joy on the cash.  

It then goes on to state that you get the money if you are undergoing flying training to become a pilot.  Now, one could possibly argue that you, as an OJTer, are always training, even if you arent at the big 2.  In the same breath, it could be argued that going for back seats in a hornet isnt training... its just fun.

I think being lowered out of a griffon will definately entitle you to the allowance.  As for just going for a ride, cant say for sure.

I say no harm in asking.  The OR will decide for you.


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## SupersonicMax (19 Feb 2007)

You can go on for rides and still train.  Everytime I go up, I learn a LOT out of the flight.

An other question re: Pay Allowance...  What is the YEARS OF ACCUMULATED ELIGIBLE SERVICE in the TABLE TO CBI 205.32?  Number of years wing qualified or Number of years in the Forces?

Max


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## Inch (19 Feb 2007)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> You can go on for rides and still train.  Everytime I go up, I learn a LOT out of the flight.
> 
> An other question re: Pay Allowance...  What is the YEARS OF ACCUMULATED ELIGIBLE SERVICE in the TABLE TO CBI 205.32?  Number of years wing qualified or Number of years in the Forces?
> 
> Max



Neither.

Number of years employed in a designated flying position. If you're doing a ground tour, that time doesn't count towards your eligible service (IE, 8 years in a flying position and 3 years in a non-flying position equals 8 years towards your aircrew allowance rate, not 11 years). 2CFFTS and 3CFFTS as a student are not designated flying positions, hence the reason you don't get regular aircrew allowance and that time doesn't count towards the eligible service. Once you're winged and posted to a flying position on a Sqn, the clock starts. It stops when you're posted out of that flying position to a non-flying position.


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## Astrodog (20 Feb 2007)

what exactly IS aircrew allowance?


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## aesop081 (20 Feb 2007)

Astrodog said:
			
		

> what exactly IS aircrew allowance?



$274 a month for the first 0-5 years in a designated flying position.......on top of your regular pay  ;D


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## Zoomie (20 Feb 2007)

cdnaviator said:
			
		

> $274 a month for the first 0-5 years



Ahem... $285 now - with the latest pay and incentive raise.


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## Astrodog (20 Feb 2007)

Is there any particular reason for it?


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## SupersonicMax (20 Feb 2007)

Thanks cdnaviator.  So, your ground postings years don't count towards the eligible years?

Max


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## aesop081 (20 Feb 2007)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Thanks cdnaviator.  So, your ground postings years don't count towards the eligible years?
> 
> Max



Thats correct....only time in a designated flying position counts for aircrew allowance.  When i was in Nav school...every flight we went on , we got CASUAL aircrew allowance.  When i wnt to OTU, i started getting the monthly allowance as i was posted into a flying position.


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## Inch (20 Feb 2007)

Astrodog said:
			
		

> Is there any particular reason for it?



Not too sure, but more to do with hazards associated with flying. That's what all allowances are for really, if you're in Afghanistan, you get large amounts of extra cash, if you fly you get aircrew allowance, if you sail you get sea pay, if you fly Sea Kings you get aircrew allowance and sea pay. Allowances are a means of compensating you for doing a job that's a little more risky than something an RMS clerk or Public Affairs Officer would do.


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## Trimmen (25 Mar 2007)

Forgive me in advance if this topic/question has already been covered.  ???
I'm confused; I'm looking at the IPC's for the Officer rank specs on the DND site, and the rank of Captain seems disproportionately larger than the other mid and senior ranks. It would seem to me that the CF are inundated with officers at the rank of Captain.
How many years does the average Army officer spend at the rank of Captain before he/she is eligible for promotion?


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## ark (26 Mar 2007)

> General Service Officers
> 
> General service officers are all officers below the rank of colonel in all occupation groups except for pilots and specialist officers (legal, medical and dental officers). General service officers pay rates are also determined through TC analysis and they receive incentive level increases just like non-commissioned members. One significant difference is that there are often more incentive levels for officer ranks than there are for non-commissioned member ranks, on the basis that it takes longer for officers to gather all the experience, skill and knowledge required for their rank. Hence, they must wait longer than non-commissioned members to receive the job rate (maximum) for their rank.





> 2. Why do non-commissioned members have fewer incentives than officers?
> 
> The Canadian Forces pay system is based on the principle of comparability with the Public Service. To that end, a series of Treasury Board Secretariat (TBS) approved salary benchmarks are used to develop the CF rates of pay.
> 
> ...



http://www.dnd.ca/dgcb/dppd/engraph/dppd_faq_e.asp?sidesection=3&sidecat=31

The last para explains it pretty well.


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## kincanucks (26 Mar 2007)

Trimmen said:
			
		

> Forgive me in advance if this topic/question has already been covered.  ???
> I'm confused; I'm looking at the IPC's for the Officer rank specs on the DND site, and the rank of Captain seems disproportionately larger than the other mid and senior ranks. It would seem to me that the CF are inundated with officers at the rank of Captain.
> How many years does the average Army officer spend at the rank of Captain before he/she is eligible for promotion?



A Captain is eligible for promotion to Major after four years (promotion zone) as a Captain.  Of course it doesn't happen automatically and many occupations have Captains in that rank for ten years and more.  Depending on the occupation and the requirementsthat need to met before promotion (courses, degree and language profile) the average can be anywhere from a few years to 12 years plus after reaching the promotion zone therefore the more IPCs for the rank of Captain.


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## Quag (26 Mar 2007)

This topic has been touched many times...just do a quick search.

In brief and in general, Captain has many IPC's because it is a position that takes much time and training to move out of.  More about that will be found in a search. 

Have you ever heard of Career Corporals?  There is also something known as Career Captains on the officer side.


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## Michael OLeary (26 Mar 2007)

I would hardly consider it inundation when most trades are short Captains to fill all of their hard trade positions. Captain is a "working rank" for officers across the CF, and without also examining and understanding the distribution of jobs by rank in any particular trade it is very misleading to presume such things simply from the number of IPCs per rank.

Promotion to major is competetive and based on a wide range of performance and potential attributes.  There's no single file of captains being promoted in turn at X number of years in rank.  Combine those assessent factors with demographics (i.e., only so many vacancies per generation before you must start moving up younger officers) and it makes a very complex matrix for selection for promotion.

Most Army officers will spend about 6-8 years as a Captain before promotion.  getting there will usually require employment in a variety of jobs as a Captain, both in their primary trade and often out of it in staff/instructional/etc. employment as well.  It also requires, for most trades as a rule, completion of the Army Operations Course (colloqualliy known as Staff College).  Until a few years ago, an officer went to Staff College shortly before promotion, now they will normally attend at 2-3 years in rank and await possible promotion afterwards.

Like Corporals and Sergeants, some Captains will serve out the balance of their careers in that rank and there's no shortage of positions for them.


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## tdub (12 May 2007)

I currently have a medical condition which I am being treated for and my MO has hinted heavily about placing me on a TCAT in the near future. I am to be promoted and posted this summer, so this news has me worried. My understanding is that my promotion documentation has been passed to my CDU to be signed off. If this documentation is processed before I am placed on a TCAT and my current medical cat is valid until Feb 08, will I be cleared for the promotion?


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## Bigmac (15 May 2007)

As long as your promotion paperwork is signed by medical authority and current medical category is within the minimum medical standard for your trade you are good to go for promotion.


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## tdub (16 May 2007)

BigMac, Thanks for the input. I've had few dealings with pers med situations during my career and the timing for this one has me a bit worried, especially when it concerns a dream promotion/posting.  

I would welcome any personal experiences anybody has with this kind of situation or further advice. Key here, I do not want to draw negative attention from the med folks or my C of C.


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## PO2FinClk (16 May 2007)

CFAO 49-4 Para 19
When a member of the rank of Cpl or above who is eligible for promotion is assigned a temporary medical category that is lower than the minimum required for the member's MOC, promotion shall be deferred.


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## tdub (16 May 2007)

Thanks PO2FinClk, but believe me, I've read every med and admin policy I can find on the subject including CFAO 49-4. I'm not on TCAT yet. therefore perhaps I'm speculating too much.


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## George Wallace (16 Jun 2007)

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/049-04_e.asp


Pick out the paragraphs that pertain to you:



> CFAO 49-4 -- CAREER POLICY NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS REGULAR FORCE
> 
> PURPOSE
> 1.     This order amplifies QR&O chapters 11 and 14, and prescribes the
> ...



Much more follows on that link......

Find what pertains to you for yourself.  I have done enough of your research for now.


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## 284_226 (16 Jun 2007)

Did I miss something, or did you just reply to a four year old post?


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## George Wallace (16 Jun 2007)

Nope.  You missed someone starting a whole new topic, basically on what reply #4 was asking.  Someone who felt they didn't want to do a search.  

I suppose I could have given them this link where I painstakingly copied out the whole CFAO 49-4, but then I would have done almost all of his work for him.


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## mzona (16 Jun 2007)

yea that was me, sorry, I did find that topic in a search and read it, and wanted originally to post my question here but it said that since it's been over a 100 days since the last post, I might as well create a new topic, which I did; but regardless thx, that's exactly what I was looking for.


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## Northern_Aviator (17 Jun 2007)

According to the cadets.ca website, if you have an undergraduate degree, it's possible for promotion to 2Lt upon completion of BOQ  "without" serving 1 year as OCdt. Does anyone have more info regarding this?

http://cadets.ca/_docs/cato-oaic/2202B_b.pdf


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## medaid (18 Jun 2007)

According to the regulations, if you have an undergraduate degree and wished to join the forces, you would be commissioned as a Second Lieutenant upon enrolling. Since OCdt is a rank primarily for members of RMC and ROTP/RESO who are working towards a degree, they would generally earn their commission two ways. 1) Graduating from university or 2) Obtaining the required military courses for career advancement to the next rank.


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## D. Nicholson (18 Jun 2007)

What more information do you need?

Once you finish BOQ submit a DND 324 (http://www.cadets.net/pac/support/admin/forms/dnd324.pdf) and then you'll get your commission. The proof of edu would be a part of your enrollement process, unless you gained the degree between your attestation and BOQ date (or any time up to the one year mark, for that matter) then you would need to foward that to the RCSU as well.


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## Pte. Fisher (5 Sep 2007)

I have a rather odd promotion situation, which I could not find an answer to in other threads as it seems to be a unique situation from others. It regards the promotion from Pte. to Cpl. I have been in the army for two years in a little bit, which for most people would merit the promotion to Cpl. However, I trained with my unit last year as an UNtrained private, as I was unable to take my DP1 Inf course last summer. I took it this summer, and have returned for my second year with my unit, as a now Fully trained Pte. Is it likely I will get promoted at my two year mark with this scenario, or will I have to train a second year fully trained. This question may sound stupid, but has seemed to astound everyone in my unit so far, including the senior leadership...


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## medaid (5 Sep 2007)

huh... interesting handle you've gotten for yourself there...


IN most cases, promotion to Cpl is automatic after certain courses and 2 years of service in the CF. Failure to do so by the CoC often requires a written explanation into the member's PERs File. Now, whether that type of promotion is merited in your case I am uncertain, however, the best place to find out for SURE, is to contact your CoC, and have them find out for you. 


Personal note now. I don't believe Cpl should be a gimme rank. It should be earned with demonstrated leadership potential and at least the completion of your QL4/QL5 in some trades. There's a certain expectation that comes with being a Cpl. It should most definitely be earned.


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## WLSC (5 Sep 2007)

I think you are a reservist, no ?  Anyway.  Even do I to think it's not a gimme rank to, it's 2 years after the date you get in if you have your DP 1 done during that time.  Time after the DP1 is not a prerequisite.  It's the enrolment date and the qualify that matters.


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## geo (5 Sep 2007)

DOG,
as a reservist, you are within your promotion zone.  Once your DP1 trade qualification has been validated (course report), your unit OR should be processing your paperwork.

"happy gimmie"!


----------



## Roy Harding (5 Sep 2007)

DOG:



			
				God said:
			
		

> I'm not "new" to military training. I just came off 8 months of leave, and I haven't done drill in quite some time. No need to be hostile, I was just asking a question.



I'm assuming you're a Reservist, and the "leave" you refer to in the post quoted above refers to Excused Drill and Training.  Does time on "ED&T" count toward promotion?

I don't know - but it is something to ask your C of C.

Here's what I DO know - your handle and signature are presumptuous, arrogant, and offensive (even to an agnostic like me).  DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, before I do it for you  (recceguy beat me to it).

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## Fishbone Jones (5 Sep 2007)

Doggy,
Your username has been changed for you. You can change it to something else yourself, in your profile settings. Sorry, the username Dog was already taken. I had to use something else.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## TN2IC (5 Sep 2007)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> I'm assuming you're a Reservist, and the "leave" you refer to in the post quoted above refers to Excused Drill and Training.  Does time on "ED&T" count toward promotion?



No, I look into it for a fellow troop before when I was PRes.

It is not a "gimme" rank. You "EARN" it. It's not something automatic.

Regards,
TN2IC


Edit to add this.
P.S Reading your profle. It states Rank: Pte/Cpl may be you want to fix that to Pte or don't put nothing there.


----------



## mudrecceman (5 Sep 2007)

2 years TI and 1 QL4 crse...as close to gimmie as it gets!


----------



## mysteriousmind (5 Sep 2007)

I have heard that...(yeah I know..not a good thing)

That to get you promotion to Cpl, you will have to get QL5 qualified. not sure if its effective or not.


----------



## combatbuddha (15 Nov 2007)

A hypothetical question.

When a members promotion is delayed because of a temporay change in medical category, is the member entitled to back pay to the effective promotion date once he is off t-cat and promoted?

Cheers


----------



## aesop081 (15 Nov 2007)

Just had that happen here at my unit...answer was no because he did not meet the requirements for promotion until the t-cat was lifted (i.e. he was not elligible for promotion)


----------



## 284_226 (15 Nov 2007)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Just had that happen here at my unit...answer was no because he did not meet the requirements for promotion until the t-cat was lifted (i.e. he was not elligible for promotion)



Something isn't right there - I was just on two consecutive T6 categories, and the file went to D Med Pol for assignment of a permanent category.  The permanent category assigned is within trade specs.  The file went off to DMCARM, decision was retained without restriction, and my promotion was just backdated to Jul 07.


----------



## 284_226 (15 Nov 2007)

Found the reference - I have it in PDF format, but it's too large to post (259 KB).

The reference is 5640-1 (DGMC S&P) dated 24 Jul 06.

The applicable paragraph reads:



> Temporary Employment Limitations
> 
> 5.   When a member is selected for promotion but has temporary employment limitations, the promotion will be deferred until the temporary limitations are lifted.  Should the limitations be lifted completely, the effective date of promotion will be backdated to the original date or to a date up to one year in the past, whichever is later.  In the event the limitations are made permanent, the guidance on permanent limitations provided below becomes applicable.



The document is on the DGMC intranet website.


----------



## PO2FinClk (15 Nov 2007)

Not being at work, I do not have a reference, but a "Temporary" Category is not to affect a promotion, only "Permanent" Categories issued by D Med Pol/DGRMC. But there is an explicit reference to this effect. the ref provided by 284_226 is valid ... somewhat but if I recall was either recinded or amended as it had a direct effect of members eligibility to postings thus paralyzing Career Management.

Reasoning is that someone cannot be promoted because they twisted their ankle, or had minor surgery, etc etc.


----------



## aesop081 (15 Nov 2007)

Thanks for clearing that up guys...makes sense to me


----------



## 284_226 (15 Nov 2007)

That is the explicit reference, and was the reference that DGMC confirmed when my promotion was effected 3 weeks ago.  That reference, and another one related to UoS and effects on promotion, are located at http://hr3.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/dgmc/engraph/admRev_MedicalEmploymentLimitations_e.asp?Opensub=40
 (available on the DWAN only).

I'm not quite sure what you were trying to say regarding eligibility to postings - temporary MELs do not preclude postings.  I was very nearly posted while on TCat this past summer, were it not for other reasons unrelated to my medical condition.


----------



## PO2FinClk (16 Nov 2007)

284_226 said:
			
		

> I'm not quite sure what you were trying to say regarding eligibility to postings - temporary MELs do not preclude postings.  I was very nearly posted while on TCat this past summer, were it not for other reasons unrelated to my medical condition.


Simple, if you were to be posted due to promotion and are now not eligible to promotion until lifting of the TCat, you therefore cannot be posted. As a result if they had to promote and post someone else, yours may end up being deferred until the next opening becomes available. I have seen this misuse of TCat for promotion purposes cause the lost of desired postings by pers before.

And no, there is another more explicit reference which I have had to use on repeated occasions with my chain of command.


----------



## JDMCRX (16 Nov 2007)

Ok gentlemen I have a question and I know I will get flamed but here is my question.

I joined in 2003 sept. I was a AVN tech for 2 years and I had to transfer to reserves for a year were i was QL5 Qualified Reg force.Ive been back in the Air force for over a year now awaiting my QL3 course. I handed up a memo up the chain of command few months ago, I have not been given a direct reply on my memo yet. What I am looking for is my Hook. Under the  CFAO 49-4 to be PTE(t) it requires 30 months in the CF and Min QL3. Now i feel i have met this requirement. But i am still a no hook pte. I feel there has been a double standard at my work as another PTE who has only 14 months in received his hook.

I know the hook means nothing in pay scale and so forth but it would be nice to have at least my hook.

I'm just wondering what other methods or who should i talk to about this matter.


----------



## armyvern (16 Nov 2007)

Uhmmm,

Yep ... your hook should be up.

Must be QL4 qualified BTW vice QL3.

You already have a QL5 qual ... that'll do!!

I'd be talking to your supervisor and "officially" handing over a copy of that memo (to refresh their memories) -- and requesting an official response to it back ...


----------



## JDMCRX (16 Nov 2007)

Ok perfect 

I went today and ask for a formal reply to my memo. Another option I was thinking was that i am only attach posted here so maybe when i go for my course in gagetown it would be better to ask them there possibly?


----------



## PO2FinClk (16 Nov 2007)

Dang it, for the life of me cannot find the ref I keep mentioning. Of course it is when you want it and are looking for it that you cannot find it. Will be sure to post when I do come across it though. Until then use CFAO 49-4 and the documents found on the DGRMC website.

Incidently, the ref provided by 284_226 is from the DGRMC website and is all but a copy of CFAO 49-4 para's 19 & 20.


----------



## JDMCRX (8 Jan 2008)

Well just another follow up. They frankly do not want to help me at all. Ive asked my MWO and my CWO and I am getting the run around

Here is what i have 

3 years + in the REG force
1 year + in the PRES

 QL3 and QL5 Qualified as a VTECH.
First aid Instructor's mod 2


I personally feel that i deserve at least my hook. 

I am not sure on what to do? I am currently going to gagetown on my QL3 on my new trade, would it be better idea to put in a memo requesting a review of my prior service for promotion?


Josh


----------



## Sig_Des (8 Jan 2008)

So you are not QL3 qualified in your current trade.

If you were a Vtech, still, sure, but you aren't anymore.

Why don't you wait until you're done your 3's. They'll probably give you your hook on the grad. S'not like you're going to be paid differently.


----------



## kincanucks (8 Jan 2008)

I think you are getting old trade and new trade mixed up.  If you want to be credited for time and qualifications in old trade then be in old trade.  If you want to be credited for time and qualifications in new trade then get some TI and qualifications in new trade.


----------



## JDMCRX (8 Jan 2008)

I know what you are saying ive been a P3 now for over 2 years. I just feel that i deserve my first hook. As in guys in my building are getting theres at not even 20 months in.

I just want a honest answer and im trying to figure out. I handed this memo in aug 29 /07 and i am still awaiting a reply


----------



## Sig_Des (8 Jan 2008)

JDMCRX said:
			
		

> As in guys in my building are getting theres at not even 20 months in.



Yes, but are these guys trades qualified in their current trade?


----------



## JDMCRX (8 Jan 2008)

Yes they are QL3 in this trade. Well maybe ill wait possibly i could get promoted to CPL. Thing that makes no sense to me in this fact is that a Person say a CPL 1 transfers to say LOG and he is allowed to keep his CPL  ???


----------



## Sig_Des (8 Jan 2008)

From CFAO 49-4

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/049-04_e.asp



> 28.    A Pte who has attained QL5A and who OTs to a new MOC as a Pte may be
> promoted to Cpl when the time prerequisites of the new MOC have been met.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## George Wallace (8 Jan 2008)

JDMCRX said:
			
		

> I know what you are saying ive been a P3 now for over 2 years. I just feel that i deserve my first hook. As in guys in my building are getting theres at not even 20 months in.
> 
> I just want a honest answer and im trying to figure out. I handed this memo in aug 29 /07 and i am still awaiting a reply



I feel like I deserve to be CDS.  Does that count?  No.  Think about it.



			
				JDMCRX said:
			
		

> Yes they are QL3 in this trade. Well maybe ill wait possibly i could get promoted to CPL. Thing that makes no sense to me in this fact is that a Person say a CPL 1 transfers to say LOG and he is allowed to keep his CPL  ???



You weren't a Cpl were you?  You were a Pte, and like the Cpl, you kept your rank.  You don't get promoted for changing Trades.


----------



## JDMCRX (8 Jan 2008)

Exactly. I have the time required to recieve my PTE (t) or my CPL


----------



## JDMCRX (8 Jan 2008)

I was not accredited my CPL due to the fact that i was jerked around in the RES unit and all my paper work was not organized tell i transfered back to the reg force about 2 months later.

No offence GW why must you be a tit about somethings. Im asking for advice not someone to be a tit on EVERY post .


----------



## Sig_Des (8 Jan 2008)

> 28.    A Pte who has attained QL5A and who OTs to a new MOC as a Pte *may be*
> promoted to Cpl when the time prerequisites of the new MOC have been met.



Just says you can be, doesn't say you have to be. That's up to your CoC.

As far as George is concerned, I'll be honest. You are sounding pretty whiny


----------



## Shad4now (8 Jan 2008)

If you met the qualfication and time requirment to be promoted to Cpl BEFORE your OT, then you should speak with your supervisor about this.  You may be eligible to greve this situation.  You will not be granted your promotion, but you may be able to receive retro pay for Cpl.  Because of an Admin error that you have missed your promotion should not count against you.  Once again, I advice you to use the CoC and perhaps speck with someone from your BOR to see what actions you may be able to take.

You will only get promoted only when you have met all the requirements for promotion in your new trade.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (8 Jan 2008)

Shad4now said:
			
		

> If you met the qualfication(qualification) and time requirment(requirement) to be promoted to Cpl BEFORE your OT, then you should speak with your supervisor about this.  You may be eligible to greve(grieve) this situation.  You will not be granted your promotion, but you may be able to receive retro pay for Cpl.  Because of an Admin error that you have missed your promotion should not count against you.  Once again, I advice(advise) you to use the CoC and perhaps speck(speak) with someone from your BOR to see what actions you may be able to take.
> 
> You will only get promoted only when you have met all the requirements for promotion in your new trade.



Don't they teach clerks and law students how to spell anymore? Maybe that's where you dropped your letter. Badly typed legal briefs. Just wondering.


----------



## George Wallace (8 Jan 2008)

JDMCRX said:
			
		

> No offence GW why must you be a tit about somethings. Im asking for advice not someone to be a tit on EVERY post .



Actually JDMCRX, as many here will tell you, Promotions are not a "Right", but are earned, approved and the member must meet certain criteria to be granted a promotion.  Maybe, you did not meet all the criteria.  Perhaps you were not what they were looking for.  Perhaps you did not have your Medical in time for your 'Promotion' because you went off and joined the Regular Force.  There are many reasons why you may not have been promoted.  Your self-centered whiny attitude here may be one of them.

Perhaps it is you......Yes YOU!.....who may owe me the apology.


----------



## scoutfinch (8 Jan 2008)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Don't they teach clerks and law students how to spell anymore? Maybe that's where you dropped your letter. Badly typed legal briefs. Just wondering.



I am guessing it is high school law because he/she would be crucified at law school and fired as a clerk.  (My comments may be off topic; however, I simply can't let people think lawyers would be permitted to submit commentary in such a haphazard fashion. )


----------



## armyvern (8 Jan 2008)

One of the requirements for promotion to Cpl now is "recommended by their Chain of Command".

I've seen it happen a couple of times where the member had the requisite amount of time in and the required qualification, but their Cpls eluded them due to a non-endorsement by their CoC. Both times it was for crappy attitude and the few extras etc that attitude had earned them. Cpls are _not_ "automatic" give-me-its after four years TI. 99% of people will get them -- it's that 1% who won't.

JDMCRX,

What did your ETP Instruction state? If you weren't happy with it, why did you accept? If you weren't happy with it -- address it appropriately. I just posted last week on this site what you are required to do to have your ETP and file reviewed by CFRG if you feel it is in error. Search for it.

So, now we can lock this up.


ArmyVern
The Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## George Wallace (8 Jan 2008)

Your answer is in your first post:



			
				JDMCRX said:
			
		

> I joined in 2003 sept. I was a AVN tech for 2 years


(2 years as a qualified Pte in your "old" Trade.)


			
				JDMCRX said:
			
		

> and I had to transfer to reserves for a year were i was QL5 Qualified Reg force


 (1/4 year as a Res Pte.).


			
				JDMCRX said:
			
		

> Ive been back in the Air force for over a year now awaiting my QL3 course


(1 more year, on a brand new contract, but unqualified QL3 in your "New" Trade.). 

Total time as a Pte 3 1/4 years.





			
				JDMCRX said:
			
		

> Under the  CFAO 49-4 to be PTE(t) it requires 30 months in the CF and Min QL3.





			
				JDMCRX said:
			
		

> Now i feel i have met this requirement.



Sorry, but you don't meet the requirement.  You have not completed your QL3 in your new Trade.


----------



## JDMCRX (8 Jan 2008)

So basically I should wait tell my QL3 course and possibly run it by my course Sgt and see what he has to say. Please if you do not have anything positive to post up keep it to your self. I know a rank is a deserved privilege. 

And GW i joined in 2003 Sept.


----------



## armyvern (8 Jan 2008)

JDMCRX said:
			
		

> So basically I should wait tell my QL3 course and possibly run it by my course Sgt and see what he has to say. Please if you do not have anything positive to post up keep it to your self. I know a rank is a deserved privilege.
> 
> And GW i joined in 2003 Sept.



Note: He said that's when you joined. Your ResF time counts for 1 day RegF for every 4 days ResF TI.

Or you could request a review of your ETP by CFRG. It's been said. You've been offered up many POVs as to your next steps by staff members and other members of this site. Lose the attitude.

Locked.

Do NOT start another one ... it will result in the warning system becoming applicable.

*Fair warning.*

ArmyVern
The Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## George Wallace (8 Jan 2008)

Don't tell your QL3 Crse.  Wait until you have completed your QL3 Crse and get posted.  You may be fetting over nothing.

As you have "REJOINED" the CF in a "NEW" Trade, did you even bother to look at what they were offering you in your "Contract"?  You did keep a copy of your Message, on which it will state what IPC level you are to be paid, and what qualifications you will be granted, as well as time towards your Time in Rank/Seniority towards promotion.  In most cases they will require you to attain your QL3 in your new Trade, as it is no use promoting someone who fails and is Released as a Training Failure.

Your Reserve time, by the way, is only counted as 1/4 time (Class B and Class C are Full Time).


----------



## Kilroy (11 Mar 2008)

I met with my Career Manager in Feb of last year. Was told i was promoted and posted. Just less than two months later i was put on a T-Cat. My promotion was, and still is on hold, until "I can do the duties of my rank in the position held." As it was put to me, since I am not allowed field duty, and am presently in a first line unit, I cannot get promoted. However, if I where to go to a base unit, not being allowed to go to the field MAY not prevent me from getting promoted. I guess I will find out this APS what happens, as I am supposed to be posted to a field unit. I'll post back in 4 months or so.  ;\)


----------



## PO2FinClk (11 Mar 2008)

Regardless of the duties currently held or those possibly held, criterions for promotion are meeting the minimum medical categories for your occupation. Positions or jobs are not assigned minimum medical categories, the individuals are based on their occupation. Thus meeting universality of service. As quoted above and in many other threads, refer to CFAO 49-4 for greater details.


----------



## Gunner98 (11 Mar 2008)

Promotion medical scrutiny is done using the last completed/approved CF 2088 (Periodic Health Exam).  Unless you have had a recent CF2088 completed that is awaiting signoff by a higher authority Base/Bde Surgeon or DMed Pol, there is no reason for deferring your promotion.  

If your employability is subsequently compromise then your new boss will be pissed-off.  To prevent this occurence of any bad blood, losing/gaining RSMs or CO would normally discuss your impending employment/ posting/position.


----------



## cc88 (19 Nov 2008)

Hi, so I just recently left reg force comm rsh during the summer after 4+ years without QL5 qual.  4C release.

I just joined res rms, and I was wondering do I get promoted to cpl in the reserves now/soon? It's more of an personal annoyance still being a pte after 4 years reg time... when I was in comm rsh there were a bunch of guys getting promoted with 4 years time in and a QL3 qual. I've looked through lots of CFAOs trying to clarify... but I know its a weird situation... 
thanks


----------



## Eye In The Sky (19 Nov 2008)

Regardless of the 4 years Reg Force time, you are now subject to the PRes NCM stuff.  The big factor is that you OTd with your CT from 291 to RMS Clerk.

The only Regulation I know of that governs this is CFAO 49-5 Career Policy - Non Commissioned Member - Primary Reserve.

Hope this helps.


----------



## cc88 (24 Nov 2008)

thanks,
yeah ive seen that before, not that I was really able to get a solid answer out of it.. hehehe

but after talking with people at work, it seems good to go -i forgot that theres some trades around where the people dont eat each other ;D


----------



## Eye In The Sky (24 Nov 2008)

There are some provisions in there for promotion to Cpl without a QL4/5 qual...but your CoC initiates them as they see fit.  I don't see where you can 'request' it.


----------



## George Wallace (24 Nov 2008)

As you are still "unskilled" or not qualified as a RMS Clerk yet, you will have to wait out your time all over again.  Once you are qualified; your C of C may have a look into accelerating your promotion.


----------



## muddyrug (5 Jan 2009)

Well, I was just wondering what the chances for advancement are within the infantry, and how long it takes to move up to say a corporal
(Obviously you won't be promoted if your a dumb ass) or even a sergeant. I want to join the infantry but it would be a major deterrent if theres
not much of a chance to advance. Also, I've heard the starting pay for Infantrymen is around $30 000 a year for privates (before taxes) , and my parents
have told me its less than that. Is 30k accurate?  


          -Tommy


----------



## Michael OLeary (5 Jan 2009)

Chances for advancement are good if you meet all expected requirements.

Private Recruits make 2585 per month.

2585 x 12 = 31020

Pay rates - http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/dppd/engraph/dppd_coverpage_e.asp?sidesection=3&sidecat=28&docid=1


----------



## Nfld Sapper (5 Jan 2009)

Lets see.....

Reg Force:

Pte IPC 1 2585/month x 12 months = 31020 before taxes and deductions.

Res Force:

Depends on how much you work.

Lets assume (and I have never seen this, but for argument sake):

Pte IPC 1 83.18/day x 365 days = 30342.45 before taxes and deductions.

As of the March 2008 pay table.


----------



## MJP (5 Jan 2009)

Promotion to Cpl in either to the Reg force or Reserve is pretty automatic.  3-4 years for Reg force and 2 years reserves.  It can be held back but it is rare.  Other ranks are determined by where you sit on the merit list to go on various leadership courses.  The potential for advancement in the infantry is excellent, especially right now.  I know of several keen soldiers that have gone from Pte to Sgt in 7-8 year range, so if you work hard you never know.


----------



## George Wallace (5 Jan 2009)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Reserve Force:
> 
> Depends on how much you work.
> 
> ...



Now, remember, as a Reservist, you will not find a Pte who will qualify to be employed as Class B and paid for 365 days in a year.  It is only a hypothetical example.

When you have passed through BMQ, SQ and Trades Training you may be lucky to be employed as Class B, but in all likelihood you will be a Cpl or higher by that time.  It would be exceptionally rare to see a Pte so employed.


----------



## jp86 (5 Jan 2009)

I'm curious - why is the time to Cpl shorter for Reserves than Reg force?  That seems counter-intuitive.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (5 Jan 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Now, remember, as a Reservist, you will not find a Pte who will qualify to be employed as Class B and paid for 365 days in a year.  It is only a hypothetical example.
> 
> When you have passed through BMQ, SQ and Trades Training you may be lucky to be employed as Class B, but in all likelihood you will be a Cpl or higher by that time.  It would be exceptionally rare to see a Pte so employed.



That's what I meant George, sorry if I wasn't too clear on it.


----------



## muddyrug (6 Jan 2009)

Thanks for your feedback everyone, the Infantry is sounding more and more like its the right job for me.


----------



## The_Falcon (6 Jan 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Now, remember, as a Reservist, you will not find a Pte who will qualify to be employed as Class B and paid for 365 days in a year.  It is only a hypothetical example.
> 
> When you have passed through BMQ, SQ and Trades Training you may be lucky to be employed as Class B, but in all likelihood you will be a Cpl or higher by that time.  It would be exceptionally rare to see a Pte so employed.



I wouldn't talk in absolutes George, it does happen (twice in my BOR).


----------



## Infanteer (6 Jan 2009)

jp86 said:
			
		

> I'm curious - why is the time to Cpl shorter for Reserves than Reg force?  That seems counter-intuitive.



Retention and a need for NCOs.


----------



## stealthylizard (17 Jan 2009)

First year Private in Regular Force Infantry in Edmonton living in quarters is a little over $1400 a month after all deductions, with a 3 meal per day, 7 days a week meal plan.  There will be an increase in about April, when the monthly field allowance kicks in.


----------



## Journeyman (17 Jan 2009)

There may be other factors as well.....

For example, I know of one soldier who spent a total of six years as a Private (and I must say, I was a pretty darn good one after all that experience). Mind you,   I    er, _he_ was also a MCpl twice...before they decided the CF would be better off with him as an officer.

I'm just saying that one's Pte-to-Cpl time may also have to consider time spent at attention, minus headdress, before the CO.    ;D



Oh, and for what it's worth, "the bastard had it coming to him" is NOT a good defence!


----------



## geo (17 Jan 2009)

jp86 said:
			
		

> I'm curious - why is the time to Cpl shorter for Reserves than Reg force?  That seems counter-intuitive.



Reservists & Regulars.... like apples & oranges... difficult to compare the two.
The competency requirements to become a Cpl in the regs differs from those in the reserve.  This was determined by someone in the nosebleed section & no one in this peanut gallery had any say into it....


----------



## muddyrug (18 Jan 2009)

stealthylizard said:
			
		

> First year Private in Regular Force Infantry in Edmonton living in quarters is a little over $1400 a month after all deductions, with a 3 meal per day, 7 days a week meal plan.  There will be an increase in about April, when the monthly field allowance kicks in.



Is there really $1100 in deductions per month? How much does it cost to live in quarters, and are they like a dorm style thing? Oh and do you work every weekend, or do you get weekends off?


----------



## Michael OLeary (18 Jan 2009)

muddyrug said:
			
		

> Is there really $1100 in deductions per month?



Quarters,
Rations,
*Taxes,
Pension Plan,*
 etc.


----------



## geo (19 Jan 2009)

rug... no, the dorm rooms are not usually used.  HOIWEVER, that being said, you sometimes end up in them for short periods while attending courses. 
Sooo... Private rooms with a common/shared washroom is what you will usually have.
Weekends ?  we sometimes work weekends BUT, while in Canada/while in garrison, you will usually have a 5 day work week


----------



## Nfld Sapper (19 Jan 2009)

I think in Gagetown they are 2 to a room in the D-Lines.


----------



## stealthylizard (19 Jan 2009)

I haven't seen a paystub since I got to battalion, so I couldn't tell you how much "rent" is for the shacks in Edmonton.  You typically get most weekends off unless you are duty, or on an exercise.  Typical day when not on course is show up for work at 7:40, parade at 8, PT shortly after, back to work for 10.  Lunch from 11:30.  Report back for 1, off for the day sometime between 3:30 and 4.  

Working in CQ is a bit different, most of the time staying a bit later than everyone else, and quite often having to show up a bit earlier, but at least I am always busy doing something even when I'm not doing anything.


----------



## snoop101 (22 Jan 2009)

Hello

On the Forces.ca site it shows that pay for private ranges from $30k-$52k. So I did some looking around and found theres 3 different ranks for a private and then of course Corpral. Is there an average pay that each would make? 

Private (Recruit) -
Private (Basic) - 
Private (One chevron) - 
Corporal (Two Chevron) -

Also im not 100% sure but do some trades people get promoted to Corporal right after they do there trade's training?


----------



## kincanucks (22 Jan 2009)

snoop101 said:
			
		

> Hello
> 
> On the Forces.ca site it shows that pay for private ranges from $30k-$52k. So I did some looking around and found theres 3 different ranks for a private and then of course Corpral. Is there an average pay that each would make?
> 
> ...



There are three different pay increments for Privates and you would have known this if you had looked here:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/48593/post-641077#new which would lead you to here:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/dppd/pdf/Reg_Force_NCM_08_e.pdf

You get promoted to Cpl, in most cases,  when you have three years as a Private and you meet the trade qualifications for your occupation.


----------



## snoop101 (22 Jan 2009)

So I assume it would be like this?

Private (Recruit) - pay increment 1 - while on bmq
Private (Basic) - pay increment 2 - while on trades training
Private (One chevron) - pay increment 3 - starting your trade


----------



## Nfld Sapper (22 Jan 2009)

More like:

Pte (IPC 1) - upon enrollment
Pte (IPC 2) - After 1 year in the CF based on enrollment date
Pte (IPC 3) - After 2 yrs in the CF based on enrollment date


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## snoop101 (22 Jan 2009)

Perfect thank you. Thats what I was looking for.


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## Nfld Sapper (22 Jan 2009)

And with that I think we are all done here......


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## helpup (22 Jan 2009)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> More like:
> 
> Pte (IPC 1) - upon enrollment
> Pte (IPC 2) - After 1 year in the CF based on enrollment date
> Pte (IPC 3) - After 2 yrs in the CF based on enrollment date



I have always had an issue with that but your right the incentive all boils down to enrollment date.  It use to be you would have to finnish trades training to move beyond IPC 1 ( or was that two )but no longer.  My brother and I got into a arguement about it once. He for it and me aghast. ah well PAT Pl lives and makes good coin doing it. 

something to add to this post is those rates will depend on if your getting Spec pay as well.  Some trades have Pte and especially Cpl's making as much as a MCpl or Sgt.


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## Nfld Sapper (22 Jan 2009)

helpup said:
			
		

> I have always had an issue with that but your right the incentive all boils down to enrollment date.  It use to be you would have to finnish trades training to move beyond IPC 1 ( or was that two )but no longer.  My brother and I got into a arguement about it once. He for it and me aghast. ah well PAT Pl lives and makes good coin doing it.
> 
> something to add to this post is those rates will depend on if your getting Spec pay as well.  Some trades have Pte and especially Cpl's making as much as a MCpl or Sgt.



Now comes the caveat......

While I was a Pte/Spr, my enrollment date was 2 Dec but when I was promoted to Cpl my IPC change over dates become sometime in Sept (can't remember the exact date), now when I was appointed to MCpl it again changed this time to June....

Clear as mud?

 ;D


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## Nfld Sapper (22 Jan 2009)

helpup said:
			
		

> something to add to this post is those rates will depend on if your getting Spec pay as well.  *Some trades have Pte * and especially Cpl's making as much as a MCpl or Sgt.



Might want to check the Pay Tables as I don't see any Pte's in the Spec columns.


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## Michael OLeary (22 Jan 2009)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Now comes the caveat......
> 
> While I was a Pte/Spr, my enrollment date was 2 Dec but when I was promoted to Cpl my IPC change over dates become sometime in Sept (can't remember the exact date), now when I was appointed to MCpl it again changed this time to June....
> 
> ...



Do you think those changes in effective dates for receiving pay incentives might be connected to effective promotion dates?


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## Nfld Sapper (22 Jan 2009)

Actaully I did Mr. O'Learly just mearly stating that at least for the Pte IPC's its based on enrollment date while the rest are based on effective promotion dates.


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## Biohazardxj (22 Jan 2009)

Privates do not get spec pay.

IPC level changes on the effective date of the promotion or appointment in the case of MCpl

When promoted/appointed you will be paid at the IPC level that is equal to or greater than what you were being paid at the former rank.  You can never make less money after promotion.  (yes there are exceptions to that but do not pertain to the questions in this thread so i wont get into it)

For example:  When I got appointed to MCPl I was a Cpl IPC 4 therefore I went to MCPl IPC 4 , because a Cpl IPC 4 makes more than and MCpl IPC 3.  However, When I was promoted to Sgt I went to IPC 0 because it was the next higher rated of pay than I was getting as a MCpl IPC 4.   

Clear?


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## 421_434_226 (22 Jan 2009)

I believe that most spec trades must now also be QL5 qualified along with Cpl rank to be paid spec pay.


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## snoop101 (22 Jan 2009)

I may be wrong, but I was reading that some trades once your done your trade school you are automatically a Cpl with specialist 1. I believe AES Op is one, among others.


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## aesop081 (22 Jan 2009)

helpup said:
			
		

> Some trades have Pte and especially Cpl's making as much as a MCpl or Sgt.



Privates, anywhere in the CF, are NOT paid specialist 1 or 2.



			
				snoop101 said:
			
		

> I may be wrong, but I was reading that some trades once your done your trade school you are automatically a Cpl with specialist 1. I believe AES Op is one, among others.



No. Direct enry AES Ops will not be promoted to Cpl after wings. They will be promoted to Cpl after 3-4 years and cannot be in receipt of spec pay until they are in fact Cpls. Once the new recruting scheme is in place, those who remuster from other trades will be Cpls to begin with and after wings, will be paid spec 1.

Currently, AES Ops must be MCpl and MOAT/OTU qualified to beging spec 1 pay.


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## helpup (23 Jan 2009)

SGT-RMSCLK said:
			
		

> Privates do not get spec pay.
> 
> IPC level changes on the effective date of the promotion or appointment in the case of MCpl
> 
> ...



I sit Corrected in my rantish post on Pte and Spec Pay, and your comment does say a world about how much more a MCpl makes. ( play on words intended)


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## Rosenberg (25 Jan 2009)

I have been told that advancement is fairly good in the infantry that is not why i joined , i personaly just love the idea of being an officer on the front


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## starseed (29 Jan 2009)

I have a question about the CFR process. Kind of..

My application is going through as an Infantry NCM as we speak (ever so slowly, of course) because I don't meet the education qualifications for DEO. Assuming that I did absolutely nothing to change that (not the case, but hypothetically) other than be a good soldier, what is the process like for getting Commissioned from the ranks? I.e. is there a minimum rank/service length before one can apply, is there a way to fast track it (I'm working on the education problem) etc.

Thanks


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## aesop081 (29 Jan 2009)

starseed said:
			
		

> I.e. is there a minimum rank/service length before one can apply, is there a way to fast track it (I'm working on the education problem) etc.



Minimum rank is Sgt (outstanding MCpls may be considered)......you dont apply for CFR, your chain of command comes to you.


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## The_Falcon (30 Jan 2009)

starseed said:
			
		

> I have a question about the CFR process. Kind of..
> 
> My application is going through as an Infantry NCM as we speak (ever so slowly, of course) because I don't meet the education qualifications for DEO. Assuming that I did absolutely nothing to change that (not the case, but hypothetically) other than be a good soldier, what is the process like for getting Commissioned from the ranks? I.e. is there a minimum rank/service length before one can apply, is there a way to fast track it (I'm working on the education problem) etc.
> 
> Thanks



Taken from http://borden.mil.ca/g1bpso/english/CFRP_e.asp (DIN Site)



> IN-SERVICE COMMISSIONING
> COMMISSIONING FROM THE RANKS PLAN (CFRP)
> References: A. CFAO 11-9
> B. CFAO 10-3
> ...


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## starseed (30 Jan 2009)

Why thank you sir


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## DND1980 (4 Feb 2009)

I was wondering if anyone can help me...I have searched on this website and also on others and can't seem to find what I am looking for. I know that it is customary for someone who has been promoted to buy a round...now the question I have is is being sworn in as a new recruit considered a promotion and do I have to buy a round?


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## PMedMoe (4 Feb 2009)

No.


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## PuckChaser (4 Feb 2009)

It does help you buy friends with your new unit if you're a reservist.


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## chrisf (4 Feb 2009)

No, it's not customary, to be quite blunt, I'd considered an attempt to "kiss arse"... contrary to what PuckChaser, I'd reccommend against trying "buy" friends... be friendly... work hard... you'll *earn* friends and respect. Don't expect to be immediately accepted into a unit family, but the other side of that coin, don't be afraid to socialize with your peers... if somone invites encourages you to go to the mess after training on a parade night, GO! Even if only for 10 minutes to say hello and good-night... I've seen many new recruits (reservists) join, and be afraid to socialise... the ones who never socialized usually quit within a year... but back to the original question, no, there is no expectation or tradition of buying a round as a new recruit. If anything, somone else should buy *you* a drink.


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## DND1980 (4 Feb 2009)

Thanks for the help! I am definitely not afraid to socialize in my unit i am a bandsman...I played with the band as a volunteer for over 2 years before being sworn in and spend almost every parade night in the mess with others in the unit. I don't expected to be accepted in right away i know that it is earned...I just wondered about the round because a corporal from my unit asked me last week if i had bought my round yet so i was unsure...but again Thanks!


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## chrisf (4 Feb 2009)

If you've been around for two years already, and are already known, then that's different... I wouldn't consider buying a round a "kiss arse" move, rather a social move... so it's entirely up to you... that being said, in MY oppinion, somone should be buying YOU the beer... but that's just me.


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## Nfld Sapper (4 Feb 2009)

[slight tangent] 

Worst one is when you get mugged out of the JR's and mugged into the SNCO's mess

 ;D

[/slight tangent]


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## geo (4 Feb 2009)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Worst one is when you get mugged out of the JR's and *mugged into the SNCO's mess*



Huh ?  You been threatened ?


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## Pointer (5 Feb 2009)

muddyrug said:
			
		

> Well, I was just wondering what the chances for advancement are within the infantry, and how long it takes to move up to say a corporal
> (Obviously you won't be promoted if your a dumb ***) or even a sergeant. I want to join the infantry but it would be a major deterrent if theres
> not much of a chance to advance. Also, I've heard the starting pay for Infantrymen is around $30 000 a year for privates (before taxes) , and my parents
> have told me its less than that. Is 30k accurate?
> ...



I can't say it's the same for all reg force infantry units, but we're hoisting people up the ladder pretty quickly these days if they're eager and switched on.  The dearth of NCOs, particularly Sgts, means accelerated promotions for quite a few, often to fill MCpl positions that are empty because the MCpls are filling a Sgt position.  You generally still have to spend a minimum of 3 (or 2, I can't recall) years as a Pte before you're eligible for accelerated promotion to Cpl.  There are exceptions, but they're exceedingly rare and generally require a great deal of paperwork wrangling and manoeuvring to pull off.


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## DirtyDog (28 Feb 2009)

Judging how many Ptes they are putting on leadership courses, and how many they are saying are going onto to mod 6, I'd say the opportunities for advancement in the infantry right now are astounding.... if a little scary.  There will be a lot of MCpls walking around within the next year with very little time in.


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## OHurleyclan (1 Mar 2009)

Your intentions are not directed in the right way.Go be the best soldier you can be and promotions and money will come as they should.If you are looking for good money go to Alberta where the money is great and the cost of living is just as equal.


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## geo (1 Mar 2009)

OHurley... you haven't been to Alberta lately - have you ?
The economy has put the brakes on the AB miracle - lotta people are moving out & heading back from whence they came. 

DD... between trying to grow the forces & replace aqll those people who are coming upon retirement, there is a definite need for new leaders.  And that could be a good thing.  Young Ptes and Cpls are coming back from Afghanistan - they are mature beyond their years - they have learnt, they are as ready as those of us who grew up and served in the cold war & had the luxury of taking years to progress from one rank to the next.  Time in is nice BUT, it's probably magnified by what you've done with yourselves during that time.


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## DirtyDog (1 Mar 2009)

geo said:
			
		

> OHurley... you haven't been to Alberta lately - have you ?
> The economy has put the brakes on the AB miracle - lotta people are moving out & heading back from whence they came.
> 
> DD... between trying to grow the forces & replace aqll those people who are coming upon retirement, there is a definite need for new leaders.  And that could be a good thing.  Young Ptes and Cpls are coming back from Afghanistan - they are mature beyond their years - they have learnt, they are as ready as those of us who grew up and served in the cold war & had the luxury of taking years to progress from one rank to the next.  Time in is nice BUT, it's probably magnified by what you've done with yourselves during that time.


I'm just worried about all the MCpls that are coming and will still be on their first contract (of which I've been told I might be one of).  There's already a lot of heads that have started to swell as it is and once they get the leaf and associated authority, there could be trouble.  Not only from their end but from their peers and subordinates that might not give the same respect for them that they would somebody that really put in the time and has the experience that there really is no subsitute for.

I realise the neccesity of it right now, but there is going to be growing pains no doubt.


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## chrisf (1 Mar 2009)

We can only hope that as a few heads begin to swell, even more heads see the problem, and rather then becoming arrogant because of their new posistions, they realise they have to work even harder, striving to follow the principals of leadership, and striving to lead by example...

We should further hope these younger master-corprals, the hard working oness, not the swollen heads, in turn become younger sergeants, younger warrants, younger MWOs, and younger CWOs... so 15-20 years from now, we have CWOs who are closer to the "reality" of their troops, who've "grown up" in a period where we were actually fighting a war rather then a cold war era, and more importantly who've "grown up" in a period of massive change, so "because that's the way we've always done it" is no longer reasonable justification for ANY decisions... leading to a cultural shift in the forces and proceeding down through the ranks....

We can only hope.


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## GAP (1 Mar 2009)

Depends how they conduct themselves....I was, because of my MOS, called a shake'n-bake Sgt. I quickly learned not to stick your nose in areas of expertise you know nothing about, and everything will be fine. 

Then they told me the name for it..............................patience.


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## geo (1 Mar 2009)

From what I have experienced, all new Mcpls tend to go thru a period of swolen heads... regardless of peacetime or wartime.  With some decent supervision and mentoring by their platoon WOs the new Mcpls should shake themselves out during the lead up training in Canada.  I am confident that the ones with problems will staff the rear party


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## Fishbone Jones (1 Mar 2009)

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> We should further hope these younger master-corprals, the hard working oness, not the swollen heads, in turn become younger sergeants, younger warrants, younger MWOs, and younger CWOs... so 15-20 years from now, we have CWOs who are closer to the "reality" of their troops, who've "grown up" in a period where we were actually fighting a war rather then a cold war era, and more importantly who've "grown up" in a period of massive change, so "because that's the way we've always done it" is no longer reasonable justification for ANY decisions... leading to a cultural shift in the forces and proceeding down through the ranks....
> 
> We can only hope.



Every generation is the same. Once we've moved on to the next war\ action \operation , there'll be guys like you complaining about those 'dinosaur Afghan vets' fighting the last war and 'just not getting it'. The more things change, the more they stay the same.


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## chrisf (1 Mar 2009)

I disagree... most WWII/Korea veterans would have a drastically different outlook on the forces then would a cold war veteran... an operations focused mentality vs a garrison focused mentality... we're operations focused now, and it's counter-acting our garrison mentality of the past many years... hopefully we can keep it...


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## geo (1 Mar 2009)

Siggie....
Each generation of soldier has his good and his bad.  Us cold warriors have had the benefit of developing the techniques that the young 'uns are learning now... and are applying with reckless abandon (sometimes).


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## Mosher (3 Mar 2009)

Was wondering if infantry work a certain number of hours a week? Would have posted elsewhere but most related threads are locked.


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## DirtyDog (3 Mar 2009)

Mosher said:
			
		

> Was wondering if infantry work a certain number of hours a week? Would have posted elsewhere but most related threads are locked.


They are locked for a reason.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21131.0.html


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## Big burn (4 Mar 2009)

I have noticed this too in the reserves, privates after one year doing their mod1 to 5 and then mod 6 during all summers and becoming instructors afters 1year and a half.

It seems to me that if those guys are sent on course like that it is because there is a very big need there which is normal to fill in.  But there should be supervisors, or somekinda guy that make sure even though the staff is young and with very little experience, they can still deliver the instructions to the recruits.  I find a little sad though cause there is a huge difference between being a recruit taugh by an experienced guy that really knows what he's talking about and knows how to share it and the recruit that has received the same instructions but maybe has remembered less information, or had his motivation towards the instructor/course go down because of his lack of experience.  Finally it is the recruits that will pay the price but these new instructors aren't to blame they were just sent somewhere a little too fast maybe. Although, with the war and all the tour, you can be a young private and experience a 6 month tour that will give you a very good experience i personnaly think is not comparable to a corporal with 4 years of experience that has not done any tour yet.


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## Michael OLeary (4 Mar 2009)

Conversely, limited but intense operational experience can undermine the long-term health of the training system.  I have seen very experienced staff parachuted in as augmentees work to apply their experience, sometimes at cross purposes to the Course Training Plan. No doubt it often achieved their personal aim to set a different standard or to "tweak" the content to better match what's happening in the units.  The problem lies in the fact that it is most often a one-shot solution, and those who follow that approach seldom, if ever, document what they've done or use the system to pursue a formal change to the training requirement.  The result is inconsistency in the students' skills from course to course, and a similar dilemma for follow-on instructors who end up trying to do the same things because few, if any, learn that it takes a different set of skills to manage the establishment requirements.

Neither one skill set nor the other used alone is enough, it takes a balance of both and mutual respect for the importance of both current operational and long-term establishments requirements.


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## Nauticus (4 Mar 2009)

Mosher said:
			
		

> Was wondering if infantry work a certain number of hours a week? Would have posted elsewhere but most related threads are locked.


lol

No offense, but if you have to ask that question, you aren't ready to join the infantry.


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## Mosher (4 Mar 2009)

Its just that ive been told by a cpl that you can only work so many hours and you have to take a certain amount of time off. It seems theres alot of strange hours to be worked in the infantry which i can hack for sure. Was just wondering if what the cpl told me only applied to certain trades?

Edit: Was also wondering what kind of qualifications are needed to become an instructor and how long it could potentially take to reach that goal.


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## PMedMoe (4 Mar 2009)

Mosher said:
			
		

> Its just that ive been told by a cpl that you can only work so many hours and you have to take a certain amount of time off.



You can work as many hours as the CF requires you to work.  However, you do have to use all your annual leave in a given fiscal year with very few exceptions, usually for operational reasons only.


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## aesop081 (4 Mar 2009)

Mosher said:
			
		

> Was just wondering if what the cpl told me only applied to certain trades?



Aircrews and Truckers are examples of trades where the number of work hours is restricted in some form.


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## Mosher (4 Mar 2009)

Thank you very much everyone, your answers are much appreciated. And have helped immensely.


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## OldSolduer (4 Mar 2009)

OK I have to add my two cents:

1. Life in the Infantry is tough...
2. Don't disregard your MWO/CWOs advice. They've been there, done that and have several T-shirts.
3. Be tactful and diplomatic when required.


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## CorporalMajor (11 Mar 2009)

GAP said:
			
		

> I quickly learned not to stick your nose in areas of expertise you know nothing about, and everything will be fine.


A big mistake I used to make. If you want to be unpopular, that's how.  :nod:



> Was wondering if infantry work a certain number of hours a week?


Regardless of what trade or element you pick you can expect to work whatever hours a week you are needed to.

In most places such as a unit it's typically 8am-4pm, in normal circumstances.  If you want normal rest during operations or field exercises - especially in combat trades - you are in for a big surprise! 

Sometimes, depending on trade, you get shift hours. On fire watch, which is done in the field, you stay up for an hour between your sleep to ensure things are safe and sound (basically a measure against tents burning down on field exes from the Coleman stoves/Lamps). 

Some trades such as Truck drivers are legally required to have certain hours of rest for safety reasons.  



> Edit: Was also wondering what kind of qualifications are needed to become an instructor and how long it could potentially take to reach that goal.



Besides your environmental and trades qual, it takes advanced qualifications, leadership school and time in.  Basically: Basic, Soldier's, Trades, Leadership, coupled with experience.


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## Mosher (25 Mar 2009)

Not so much worried about the rest. Worried about having enough time for the wife and kids.

I have been asking alot of questions lately outside of the forum and keep getting the answer, "if you have to ask, your not right for the job" or if you think its all fun and games, your in for a suprise" 

I am specifically going infantry because i want to work hard. I like to muscle things around, I can work well with minimal rest, and can usually take whatevers thrown at me.

It's just unfair how people assume when they don't even know you.

Thank you to all for your answers!


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## Eye In The Sky (25 Mar 2009)

Nauticus said:
			
		

> lol
> 
> No offense, but if you have to ask that question, you aren't ready to join the infantry.



Please, elaborate...why is that question an indication of if someone can handle the infantry, or not?


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## Snaketnk (26 Mar 2009)

Recruit and Trade training isn't designed to only be a test of your character and ability in your trade, it's there to develop it. Saying someone isn't ready to be in the Infantry before they've even began their training is a moot point, as the system is designed to shape people who aren't infanteers into infanteers.


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## stealthylizard (27 Mar 2009)

As far as progressing through the ranks, as it stands right now, at least in 1VP, they are not advance promoting for the ranks of private and corporal.  They may be sending some to PLQ courses, and giving them a leadership position, but the rank is not coming along with it.  More than a few people I know have inquired about putting a memo in and were told not to bother unless you have the minimum time in rank.  Some may know differently, but this is what I witnessed this past week.


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## dangerboy (27 Mar 2009)

stealthylizard said:
			
		

> More than a few people I know have inquired about putting a memo in and were told not to bother unless you have the minimum time in rank.  Some may know differently, but this is what I witnessed this past week.


Why would you put a memo in to get advanced promoted, advanced promotion are designed for the chain of command to promote people that have perform above what their peers are.  Unfortunately people are using them for purposes they were not intended for IE he just a kid, he is just about to deploy.  If you are deserving of an advanced/accelerated promotion your chain of command will put you forward; asking for it seems kinda arrogant , that is just my opinion.


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## Eye In The Sky (27 Mar 2009)

If I had one of my subordinates (not that I have any now  ;D) submit a memo requesting an accelerated promotion, my reaction would be:

1.  Several seconds of staring at them;
2.  Saying "what is this, some kind of sick joke?!?!" a la the voice of that Marine Col in Full Metal Jacket talking to Joker about his peace symbol, and having "Born To Kill" written on his brain pan; and
3.  Telling them to read CFAO 49-4 -- Career Policy Non-Commissioned Members Regular Force (DWAN link only, CFAOs not avail on Internet at this time), and to report back to me their findings for "insert timing" the next day, being prepared to answer questions on why their memo was a waste of their (and my) time.  

Thats my  :2c:


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## geo (27 Mar 2009)

If a person is being deployed & employed in a position above the rank he currently holds, there should be consideration for his being promoted "while so employed"....  This would not be an accelerated promotion... and if WSE, he would have all qualifications - xcept "time in rank".


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## TimBit (27 Mar 2009)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> If I had one of my subordinates (not that I have any now  ;D) submit a memo requesting an accelerated promotion, my reaction would be:
> 
> 1.  Several seconds of staring at them;
> 2.  Saying "what is this, some kind of sick joke?!?!" a la the voice of that Marine Col in Full Metal Jacket talking to Joker about his peace symbol, and having "Born To Kill" written on his brain pan; and
> ...



While on my BOTC, someone wrote a memo saying he should command the graduation parade... for his sword drill skills were good.

True story...sad.


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## geo (27 Mar 2009)

(at least he had a sense of humour)


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## stealthylizard (27 Mar 2009)

A lot of them trying to do it, want the promotion before going overseas instead of potentially getting it 2 months into their deployment or not getting it when they are eligible because they are overseas and there isn't always time to do field promotions.  I do agree, it is abit arrogant, but at the same time, if you are eligible for promotion, why not try to get it.  It isn't like they are trying to get a promotion up to sergeant with only 1 year under their belts.  They are 6 months or less short of time in rank.  Always have to be proactive.


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## CorporalMajor (27 Mar 2009)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Please, elaborate...why is that question an indication of if someone can handle the infantry, or not?


I think what he meant is that the person asking may be basing his decision on that alone, which is a very bad reason to join any trade  (even if that person was only curious about it and nothing else).


And yeah... putting a memo in to get promoted... come on.  Even I know better.  That decision is up to your higher COC and on the recommendation of your supervisors - no one else.  You have to EXCEL past your rank and even then it's not your decision.  If you want to get promoted, work at your job and professional development really hard, be a team player, be a leader, adopt quiet professionalism, show initiative, listen, behave your self.... it will come to you. 

The only reason why people may get a leadership course so soon anywhere, is so they can develop their leadership abilities early on because that is what is needed of them right away.  Not always to promote people immediately.  More and more often we need Pte/Cpls to act on their own initiative - regardless of trade. 

I'm getting on my PLQ very soon but that's because all the Sgts, WOs and even some Officers in my unit are leaving, and that means I have to know how to take charge, run my OR and handle "problem children". Not to get promoted, because there's still a lot of things I must learn.


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## MJP (27 Mar 2009)

stealthylizard said:
			
		

> As far as progressing through the ranks, as it stands right now, at least in 1VP, they are not advance promoting for the ranks of private and corporal.  They may be sending some to PLQ courses, and giving them a leadership position, but the rank is not coming along with it.  More than a few people I know have inquired about putting a memo in and were told not to bother unless you have the minimum time in rank.  Some may know differently, but this is what I witnessed this past week.



I just came from 1VP last summer and the standing policy was unless they are totally screwed up you will get your Cpls in 3 years vice 4.  That may have changed in the last while but I am sure that a few serving 1VP pers will be along shortly to clarify.  

As for wanting it so they don't get missed while overseas, is a silly notion.  If they were due their promotion and it was missed they will receive back pay for the period they were at a lower rank.  I've seen it happen and it is a relatively simple fix


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## Journeyman (27 Mar 2009)

stealthylizard said:
			
		

> if you are eligible for promotion, why not try to get it.


"Eligible" is the _minimum_ baseline. 

"Earned" is where one moves beyond the minimum, to where the chain of command deems one _worthy_ of promotion.


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## Danjanou (27 Mar 2009)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> "Eligible" is the _minimum_ baseline.
> 
> "Earned" is where one moves beyond the minimum, to where the chain of command deems one _worthy_ of promotion.



eligible.... earned.... entitled.....

You say tomato, I say tomato. C'mon you old fart get with the new "me generation's" way of thinking. 8)


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## 2 Cdo (27 Mar 2009)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> If I had one of my subordinates (not that I have any now  ;D) submit a memo requesting an accelerated promotion, my reaction would be:
> 
> 1.  Several seconds of staring at them;
> 2.  Saying "what is this, some kind of sick joke?!?!" a la the voice of that Marine Col in Full Metal Jacket talking to Joker about his peace symbol, and having "Born To Kill" written on his brain pan; and
> ...



Similar situation a few years ago but the troop asking was the worst soldier in the section! My response was that the only memo I would endorse from him was a request to go repeat battleschool followed by a hearty F@ck off!


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## stealthylizard (27 Mar 2009)

I do agree with most of what you guys are saying.  I wa just trying to point out that advancement isn't as quick as some might perceive it to be, and even with leadership shortages, don't expect to move from private to sergeant in a years time.  Perhaps it is faster advancement on average than other trades, I can't comment since I haven't been in other trades, and my experience is very very limited.


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## Infanteer (28 Mar 2009)

Advancement is actually quite quick.  We've got MCpl's after 4 years and Sergeants after 6-7.  That was relatively unheard of a decade or two ago.
Sure, you slog through your 3-4 years as a Private and/or Corporal - which is good, because it lets you develop the requisite skillsets - but after that, if you've got real talent, hold on.


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## DirtyDog (29 Mar 2009)

I start mod 6 in a few weeks and I've been in 2 1/2 years.  There will be a few other Privates on the course with less time in then me.

I'm *assuming* promotion may follow.  I would say getting to MCpl during your intial engagement demonstrates that advancement opportunities in the infantry are actually quite good these days. 

But then again, I'm still just an FNG....


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## gunneravery (30 Mar 2009)

Ihave been in the army for just over a year now.  im an arty ncm at 2 rcha. i got my QL4 and going on my DP2 recce tech next week. after im done my reccee course, can i apply for the advance promotion to bombadier(corporal). I have heard that you can do this only one time in your career? can anybody shed some light on this matter.? thanks.


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## Nfld Sapper (30 Mar 2009)

gunneravery said:
			
		

> Ihave been in the army for just over a year now.  im an arty ncm at 2 rcha. i got my QL4 and going on my DP2 recce tech next week. after im done my reccee course, can i apply for the advance promotion to bombadier(corporal). I have heard that you can do this only one time in your career? can anybody shed some light on this matter.? thanks.



You don't apply for advanced promotion, if your CoC deems you worthy of advanced promotion they will promote you.


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## George Wallace (30 Mar 2009)

Didn't we just cover this subject yesterday?   :


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## Nfld Sapper (30 Mar 2009)

I think I can hear the echo from that ............


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## gunneravery (30 Mar 2009)

I looked on the boards and could not really find any relative information about the subject.


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## George Wallace (30 Mar 2009)

*YUP!*

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/82732/post-827858.html#msg827858

And look what the wayback machine dug up:


http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/64980/post-599735.html#msg599735


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## gunneravery (30 Mar 2009)

Thanks for your help and speedy response George.


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## Biggoals2bdone (13 Apr 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Now, remember, as a Reservist, you will not find a Pte who will qualify to be employed as Class B and paid for 365 days in a year.  It is only a hypothetical example.
> 
> When you have passed through BMQ, SQ and Trades Training you may be lucky to be employed as Class B, but in all likelihood you will be a Cpl or higher by that time.  It would be exceptionally rare to see a Pte so employed.



Just wondering why you can't see a trade qualified pte/cpl working class b 1 year or more??  you see this quite often in the Naval and Air Reserves...quite common to see pers getting class B contracts for 1-3 years with possibility to extend...is hits not possible to work full time in the Militia?


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## Loachman (13 Apr 2009)

Class B contracts are not that easy to come by in my Squadron.

Aside from positions specifically designated as Class B ones (we are a "Reserve-Heavy Unit"), there has to be an operational requirement.

We operate throughout the week as well as several weekends each month, so there is a greater requirement for both Class B and Class A employment than ground-bound units. Fourteen days of Class A employment per month is available as the norm, and the CO will authorize a few more if needed. We expect a greater commitment from our Class A people because of the workload and currency requirements for aircrew and techs.

There are also no reserve courses for our people. Everybody is qualified to the same level as regular force personnel.


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## Biggoals2bdone (13 Apr 2009)

You're speaking of the Air reserves it sounds like, and well honestly, they are in their own space, i've talked to pers from that area before, and I know of only 1 Unit (in Truro, NS) that hire off Civvi street, all the other units i've spoken to, only hire prior reg force QL3 trained pers.

So all the Reserve branches run their house differently...I know in the NavRes...I have many friends who have been working full time, Class B, since they got down their 3's 2-3 years ago, and not only speaking of ship posn, shore duties too, especially easy for the RMS and bosn to get contracts...but I haven't heard of many people being denied a contract, that is very surprising that the other reserve forces don't offer that much.


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## ltmaverick25 (22 Apr 2009)

I was just wondering if someone could interpret the following information for me from a promotion message.

Ref E: CBI 204.52 Table B

Para 5. IPC IAW REF E, Pay level B

I have tried doing a search but the only thing I was able to come up with is that CBI 204.52 means pay for officers.


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## navymich (22 Apr 2009)

CBI 204.52

Reading through Ref E from your promotion message (linked above) it states that Table B is for "general service officers other then pilot" which you would be as a Mars Officer.  Reading through Table B, you will notice that the ranks are broken down with A, B and C.  As per Para 5 of your promotion message, your pay level is B.  Follow that across and you will see your corresponding pay.

Reading this pay chart (note the disclaimer on the bottom of the page that it is for information only) you will see a better breakdown of the pay levels and that it indicates the reasoning for each level based on entry.  Level B being "OCTP-NFS" (Officer Candidate Training Plan and I assume that NFS is 'no former service')


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## ajp (26 May 2009)

I did enjoy reading theis and EITS's meticulous knowledge of the manuals.  I was in another boat as I was promoted late, as were a few of my friends, RETROACTIVE PAY is always nice.  I could see wanting to be promoted before a tour as the money can be a lot better at certain ranks.  I lucked out there.  

I know of Cpl's promoted to MCpl (yes I know its an appointment), but have never seen any other cases.  It would be nice if there were more deserving pers out there that could be promoted for their excellence......It would be nice.


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## Padraig OCinnead (18 Jun 2009)

I just would like to add that the popular belief that a member cannot be nominated for accelated promotion more than once is incorrect. CFAO 49-4 states that one cannot be accelerated promote through successive ranks or to the same rank twice.


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## dantheman (29 Jun 2009)

I have a quick two part question for the medical technicians on board here. I see no need to beat around the bush, or be politically correct – so, I will be blunt.

1)	What is the promotion rate like in the med tech trade? I know that it depends on the person, their abilities, attitude, etc.. but some trades are known to promote slowly (e.g. artillery officer). What can one expect to be by the time they complete their training.
2)	In extension. What is the average pay of a fully qualified med tech?

I ask the above questions because I have been considering the med tech field but want to make sure that when I sign my life away for 6 years it is a well informed decision. The prospect of making under 50, 000 for the rest of my life is not all that appealing – especially considering I just finished a science degree at university.


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## George Wallace (29 Jun 2009)

Taking a wild guess, from knowing a Med Tech or two, I would say you would probably be lucky to be a MCpl, perhaps a brand new Sgt if you were extremely lucky, in six years.


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## PMedMoe (29 Jun 2009)

I agree with George, six years to MCpl.  Sgt in six years would be _extremely_ rare.  They are working on spec pay for Med Techs but it hasn't been approved yet.

If you have a degree, there is always the option of going officer but the promotion rate is probably possibly worse.


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## Armymedic (29 Jun 2009)

MCpl in six years (3 as Pte, 3 as Cpl) would make you lucky...but in 12 you can make WO. There are many whom are currently doing it. It will be even easier in 3-7 yrs when they pull PA WOs and make them all Capts.

As for the pay and stuff...well, what can I say:

They have been promising Spec pay for Med Techs for 20 yrs.... Its coming, with the cheque thats in the mail. Besides, if you are worried about how much you can earn, go work for GMC, I hear they pay their workers real well. Funny, I don't see many soldiers getting laid off, nor many retired ones losing their pensions or retirement benefits...

And a nice tidbit, which you are probably too late for, the PA program is now a BSc program (Cha-ching).

So employment opportunities in the civilian world never look so bright for military PAs which means more openings for promoting the jrs once we old farts get out after our oblig service.


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## dantheman (1 Jul 2009)

SFB - I must confess that I am unaware of that program. I am guessing it is the physicians assistant program? The curriculum says that it is based on the QL3s and 5s of the med tech. Do you need to first serve as a med tech in order to enlist in the program?

PMedMoe - by going officer, you mean in general right (i.e. artillery, etc)? I did not know there was an officer option for the med techs (aside from military doctors).

*edit: Let me ask you guys a very personal question (if a new topic is needed for such a question, let me know). According to the forces pay scale, a corporal makes 50,000. Can you as a single person live comfortably on that salary? By comfortable I don't mean a lavish life, but rather a self sufficient one where you have a small place of your own (not a bunker), and you are not strapped to pay your monthly expenses - in other words not having to succomb to a spartan lifestyle.

I ask only because you know firsthand the military lifestyle. This weighs heavily on the decision because where i went to school, in Waterloo (where i got my Bsc in Organic Chemistry), I would not be able to live off such a salary cause of the cost of living.


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## George Wallace (1 Jul 2009)

dantheman

Have you looked at the newspaper at all, when the topic of "Cost of Living" or "what the 'Poverty Line' is" is being mentioned?  You will see that CF wages at all levels are well above the 'Poverty Line'.


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## PMedMoe (1 Jul 2009)

For "medical" officer trades, there is also HCA (Health Care Administration).

Live comfortably on $50,000?  Yes, of course you can.


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## Armymedic (1 Jul 2009)

dantheman said:
			
		

> SFB - I must confess that I am unaware of that program. I am guessing it is the physicians assistant program? The curriculum says that it is based on the QL3s and 5s of the med tech. Do you need to first serve as a med tech in order to enlist in the program?



Currently you must be a Sgt Med Tech merit listed for promotion to WO as graduation is tied to promotion to that rank.


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## The_Falcon (1 Jul 2009)

dantheman said:
			
		

> SFB - I must confess that I am unaware of that program. I am guessing it is the physicians assistant program? The curriculum says that it is based on the QL3s and 5s of the med tech. Do you need to first serve as a med tech in order to enlist in the program?
> 
> PMedMoe - by going officer, you mean in general right (i.e. artillery, etc)? I did not know there was an officer option for the med techs (aside from military doctors).
> 
> ...



There is a VERY long thread in the recruiting forums, entitled entering the CF and your money, i suggest you read that.


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## Armymedic (1 Jul 2009)

Hatchet Man's advice is good.

I might know something about said thread  , here is a link:

http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/26093/post-158506.html#msg158506


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## timstec (15 Jul 2009)

Can someone (probably a fin clerk) explain to me the following? If you could include an example it would be appreciated. Thanks

204.075 – RATE OF PAY ON PROMOTION –RETROACTIVE PAY INCREASE

When an officer or non-commissioned member has been promoted, and a revision of the rate of pay established in the CBI that applies to the member is approved after the date on which the member was promoted, as a result of which payment of the revised rate of pay for the member’s new rank and pay increment and, if applicable, pay level and trade group is to commence prior to the date of the member’s promotion, the member shall be paid from the date of the promotion at the rate of pay that is determined by the application of the CBI that determine the member’s rate of pay on promotion, as if the revised rates of pay had been approved prior to the date of the promotion.


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## PMedMoe (15 Jul 2009)

If you get promoted from Pte to Cpl (for example) on 15 May and there is a revision to the rate of pay (e.g. pay raise, "economic adjustment", Spec level) that is approved on 15 Jun ("after the date on which the member was promoted") of the same year but retroactive to 01 Apr ("to commence prior to the date of the member's promotion"), you will be paid at the new rate from the date of your promotion ("as if the revised rates of pay had been approved prior to the date of promotion").

At least, that's what I'm reading.


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## Biohazardxj (15 Jul 2009)

PMedMoe.....You are correct.  Plse move to the head of the class.


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## timstec (15 Jul 2009)

thanks a lot!


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## PMedMoe (15 Jul 2009)

SGT-RMSCLK said:
			
		

> PMedMoe.....You are correct.  Plse move to the head of the class.



Thank you, thank you.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  No applause, just throw money.


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## jacksparrow (15 Jul 2009)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Thank you, thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hmmmm....could you imagine toonies being thrown at you? Be careful what you wish for. LOL


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## PMedMoe (15 Jul 2009)

jacksparrow said:
			
		

> Hmmmm....could you imagine toonies being thrown at you? Be careful what you wish for. LOL



I'll take them!  I'll just wear my helmet!


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## dapaterson (15 Jul 2009)

And ballistic eyewear.  Don't forget to protect your eyes!


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## 097004610 (15 Jul 2009)

I am asking this question as I haven't been able to find anything during a search.  

I am curious as to how long it takes to be promoted from Lieutenant to Captain and so on? 
I do understand this is based on a lot of other criteria but anyone know the average time it takes to get promoted?

Thank you.


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## timstec (15 Jul 2009)

From CFAO 11-6. However remember merit lists etc...

PROMOTION TO CAPTAIN, MAJOR, LIEUTENANT-COLONEL AND COLONEL

20.    Except as provided in paragraph 21, promotion to the ranks of 
captain, major, lieutenant-colonel and colonel is competitive and is based 
on merit and service requirements within each MOC.  Officers will be 
selected for such promotions from among those:

     a.   who have entered the promotion zone for promotion to the next
          rank on attaining the required number of years of seniority in
          their current rank as follows -

          (1)  as a lieutenant - two years, except that for those
               commissioned as a lieutenant under the UTPM or CFRP the
               period is three years,

          (2)  as a captain - four years,

          (3)  as a major - four years, or

          (4)  as a lieutenant-colonel - three years;


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## 097004610 (15 Jul 2009)

Thank you for the speedy reply!!


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## PMedMoe (15 Jul 2009)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> And ballistic eyewear.  Don't forget to protect your eyes!



Oops, better get a flak vest too......   :camo:

Mods, I'm assuming you can lock this one.


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## dapaterson (15 Jul 2009)

Note that different parameters may apply to certain specialist occupations (Doctors, Lawyers etc).  Some are commissioned as 2Lts with simultaneous promotion to Capt.


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## PMedMoe (15 Jul 2009)

The OP is applying for ROTP.  If I'm not mistaken, you remain an OCdt until you get your degree, no?


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## dapaterson (15 Jul 2009)

I hadn't seen that post - that is correct, ROTP students remain OCdts while in school.


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## SupersonicMax (15 Jul 2009)

NO Hopeful, if you are HCA, you'll be promoted to Lt upon graduation from University as well as commissionned, and 3 years after you'll be Capt.


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## Gunner98 (15 Jul 2009)

OCdt during school.  2Lt commissioned upon graduation from university ROTP.  Lt upon graduation from occupation training.


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## SupersonicMax (15 Jul 2009)

Frostnipped Elf, some trades (HCA for example) get Lt right away after grad.


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## dapaterson (15 Jul 2009)

No, certain trades do their occupational training in the summers prior to grad, vice spending their summers on OJT.  Thus, on graduation, they meet the requirement of occupational training, and are therefore promoted.


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## Gunner98 (15 Jul 2009)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Frostnipped Elf, some trades (HCA for example) get Lt right away after grad.



Thanks Max for your expertise on one of my old occupations - since I was a HCA for 8 years before I became a HSO and supervised HCAs for the last few years.  

If a HCA grads from RMC - yes you get your Lt, from ROTP not necessarily. As an ROTP Arty Officer (another previous occupation) I received my Lt after Phase IV Arty was complete which was 2 years after I grad from university.  My peers from RMC were Lts before Phase Trg was done.

From Recruiting page:
Phase II: Basic Health Care Administrator Training

*Upon successful completion of Phase I, you will be commissioned in the rank of Second Lieutenant or Sub-Lieutenant.* This phase is comprised of three training sub-components or stages. These three stages will prepare you to serve as a junior Health Care Administration Officer in an operational unit or a static health care facility. *During the first stage, the fall and winter terms of a normal academic year, you will complete a university certificate course in Health Care Management through a combination of distance learning and classroom sessions conducted at the Canadian Forces Medical Service School, CFB Borden.* This program will give you the skills required for managing the delivery of health-care services in a civilian setting and, depending on your qualifications, some or all of it may be waived. During the second stage, which lasts about four weeks, you will learn how to apply your health-care management skills in the CF context. The third and final stage, which lasts about five weeks, focuses on health care delivery in close support of Combat Arms units in the field on operations.


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## SupersonicMax (15 Jul 2009)

Frotnipped Elf:  I appologize.  

In RMC case, why do they get Lts before phase trg is completed, while CiviU don't?


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## nurse sarah (16 Jul 2009)

Nurses are Lt's straight after graduation (school is our trades training) and captains 3 years later. 

(I'm just guessing that NO hopeful means nursing officer?)


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## Gunner98 (16 Jul 2009)

http://admfincs.mil.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/011-06_e.asp 

CFAO 11-6 -- COMMISSIONING AND PROMOTION POLICY -OFFICERS -REGULAR FORCE

Appx 1 to Annex A (for General Service Officers) and Annex B (Specialist Offr occupations of which Nursing Officer is one)outlines the training standards for promotion to Lt.

Excerpt
ANNEX A, APPENDIX 1 - TRAINING STANDARDS FOR PROMOTION TO LIEUTENANT

OFFICER OCCUPATION         TRAINING COMPLETED

     ARMD                ARMD Phase IV

     ARTY                ARTY Phase IV

     INF                 INF Phase IV

     ANAV                Wings Standard

     PLT                 Wings Standard

     AERE                AERE Phase IV

     CELE                CELE Land/Air BASIC

     LEME                LEME Phase IV

     MARE                MARE Phase IV

     MILE                MILE Phase IV

     PE&R            PE&and;R Basic Course (Officer)

     ATC                 ATC Basic Course Phase II and unit facility rated "competent"

     AWC                AWC Basic Course and certification as operationally ready

     FLE                 FLE Course (for type of aircraft applicable for initial employment)

     PAFF                On-job training

     LOG                 Specialty Qualification following Basic LOG Officer Course

     MARS                Certificate of Competency Level 1

     PADM                Personnel Administration Officer-Basic Course

     POST                Obtain 76A Qualification

     SECUR               Basic Security Officers Course

     INT                 Basic Intelligence Officers Course

Annex B - excerpt

This annex prescribes additional provisions applicable to the promotion of an officer of a Specialist
officer MOC (Dental, Dental Associate, Medical, Medical Associate, Nursing, Chaplain (P), Chaplain (RC), Pharmacist, Pastoral Associate (RC) Legal, Music Social Work, Personnel Selection and Training Development). 

Excerpt - COMMISSIONING AS SECOND LIEUTENANT OR PROMOTION TO LIEUTENANT
3.     Commissioning in the rank of second lieutenant or promotion to the rank of lieutenant is governed by the following:

     a.   ROTP or UTPM.  Annex A applies except that the officer shall be
          commissioned in the rank of second lieutenant with simultaneous
          promotion to the rank of lieutenant.

     b.   DOTP.  The officer will be commissioned in the rank of second
          lieutenant effective the date of enrolment less any period of
          leave without pay on enrolment.

     c.   MOTP.  The officer will be -

          (1)  commissioned in the rank of second lieutenant effective the
               date of enrolment less any period of leave without pay on
               enrolment, and

          (2)  promoted to the rank of lieutenant the date the officer
               commences internship.

     d.   Nursing Officer (except ROTP and UTPM graduates).  The officer
          will be commissioned in the rank of second lieutenant on
          successful completion of BOTC with simultaneous promotion to
          lieutenant.  The effective date of commissioning and promotion
          will be the date of enrolment less any period of leave without
          pay on enrolment.

     e.   CFRP.  A candidate selected for commissioning as a Specialist
          Officer under the CFRP whose rank is warrant officer or below and
          who has not completed the Senior Leaders Course (SLC) will be
          commissioned in the rank of second lieutenant with simultaneous
          promotion to the rank of lieutenant on successful completion of
          the required basic officer training.  Commissioning will be
          effective the date of successful completion of the basic officer
          training.

Note:  Medical Associate is Bio Sci.  HCAs are not Specialist Officers they are GSO.


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## csharding (26 Jul 2009)

Hey Guys, I was just looking in to career progression and rank promotion as an Air Combat Systems Officer (former ANAV).  Now I know I'm a young officer (still an OC with a year left in school) but I was wondering if there were any links to regulations for promotions and such.  I have the pay scales (though I don't totally understand what's going on there) but I haven't been able to find anything on time in and merit boards etc.  My impression is that the first few (up to Captain) come for time in and being a god little officer but I was wondering what comes after, what sort of stuff are they looking for when you get to those boards.  Any official links would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Scott


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## SupersonicMax (26 Jul 2009)

You'll get LOTS of info when your career manager comes and talk to you, as soon as you go to the nav school, or hit your first operational unit.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (26 Jul 2009)

csharding said:
			
		

> being a god little officer



The scales I'm looking at say you shouldn't feel like that for at least another 6 months.........[aww,..come on, it was too good to let go by]


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## George Wallace (26 Jul 2009)

:-\



			
				Tango2Bravo said:
			
		

> CFAO 49-12 gives the big picture (time in rank).
> 
> LFCO 29-12 has the course requirements by MOC, but there are a lot of "TBIs".  To be honest I found the chart hard to understand and came away knowing less...


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## prima6 (1 Aug 2009)

Like Max said, you'll get lots of information from your career manager, but you won't see him until after you finish the ACSO course at 1CFFTS and are assigned to a community and even then it won't be until the career manager is visiting your unit.

I can't access any of the CFAOs from home, but when I'm back at work on Tuesday I can see about finding any links, etc. to relevant information on the merit boards.  You should be aware that different trades have different promotion requirements depending upon a multitude of factors.  As an ACSO Capt you'll need at least 3 of your last 5 PERs to have a promotion recommendation of Immediate.  Whether you get an immediate depends on how you rank on your unit.  From my experience usually the top 25-30% will get an immediate.  Obviously here we get into one of the ways in which the PER system isn't perfect as you could be on a unit with a lot of stellar people and not make the cut, whereas there may be another unit where you would have but you still don't have an immediate.  Also, it is fairly common that when you go to a new unit with an immediate from your last unit that you drop to ready on your first PER at the new unit.  This is part of why the 3 of 5 thing is built in.  How the PER system works (or doesn't work depending on your POV) is the subject of a book, but you may have already had some instruction on it, will get more on your ab initio ACSO course (whatever that course is) and there will be lots to learn by osmosis and by having to actually write PERs as a supervisor.

Once you get to the merit board you'll be ranked.  You may have heard of getting points for different courses and qualifications so this is where that becomes important.  Many things are assigned points such as degrees, EXPRES exemption, OPME, AFOD, second language profile, some courses (eg ASC, SANC for ACSO), etc.  The merit board looks at this and other things are ranks all those files that make it to the board.  Then it comes down to how many promotions are available and where you ranked.


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## OldPW (4 Aug 2009)

The actual answer is a bit more technical than PMedJoe's respons.  The para ref'd relates to the slotting process on promotion.  While it is not really noticeable for most NCM pay rates (with the exception of spec trades on prom to CWO), when a member gets promoted, there is an automatic right to a minimum pay raise of at least the difference between PI Basic and PI 1 of the new rank.  Since most NCM raises are worth more than  that, the member goes to PI Basic in the new rank.  For officers, it is much more common to get "slotted" into a PI greater than basic in the new rank. 

The formula is basically:
Rate of pay on day prior to prom date + (New rank PI 1 - new rank PI Basic) = XXXX.XX
PI on Prom must be at least equal to but not less than XXXX.XX
So if the formula above comes to 4853.00 for example, and a Capt PI 1 = 4851.00, the member would be slotted at PI 2, the nearest PI that is not less than the formula. (these are not actual rates, just a visual example)

So let's say that the Capt was prom on 1 May and got PI 2.  In Sep, the pay raise comes in for 1 Apr.  You would redo the formula above, and verify the entitlement again.  If, because percentages favour members with higher starting salaries, the result of the calculations is now:
Formula above = 5013.00 and the new Capt PI 1 = 5013.00, than the member would be retroactively slotted to PI 1 vice the PI 2 originally granted.  The member does not merely get the new pay raise for Capt PI 2.

While the numbers are pulled out of thin air for the purpose of the explanation, this is an actual result of CBI 204.075, and this did in fact happen to several jr officers in '06 or '07.


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## PMedMoe (4 Aug 2009)

OldPW said:
			
		

> The actual answer is a bit more technical than PMed*Joe's* respons.



PMed*Moe*, thanks.


----------



## OldPW (4 Aug 2009)

PMedMoe.  My apologies, should have edited one last time.  No offense intended.


----------



## PMedMoe (4 Aug 2009)

None taken.


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## oldandgrey (7 Oct 2009)

I have done reseach on this subject already but there is this confustion between another officer and myself. here is my question.

when does someone get promoted from OCdt/NCdt to 2Lt or higher? the policy state once one finish basic officer training. those this mean after BOTC or after Phase 4 (DP1.2). and can you pass on to me the location of the policy that clearly state which crs that one get promoted.

Thank you


----------



## gcclarke (7 Oct 2009)

oldandgrey said:
			
		

> I have done reseach on this subject already but there is this confustion between another officer and myself. here is my question.
> 
> when does someone get promoted from OCdt/NCdt to 2Lt or higher? the policy state once one finish basic officer training. those this mean after BOTC or after Phase 4 (DP1.2). and can you pass on to me the location of the policy that clearly state which crs that one get promoted.
> 
> Thank you



It should be after completion of your BMOQ course. I'll try to dig up the reference tomorrow at work.


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## DIESEL 007 (7 Oct 2009)

hello, while on my NOAB course it was made clear to me that under the CEOTP a Ncdt does not receive his/her commission until the completion of their MOC training, for me that means: BMOQ, NETPO, MARS III and MARS IV, this will take anywhere from 1.5 to 2 years depending on gaps in training.  A DEO officer will be promoted directly after completion of their BMOQ.  This is straight from two of the board members involved in personnel selection and training from Ottawa.  It was hard for me to hear that I will only make 700 a pay for that long, thats a 60% pay- cut!! But it will pay-off in the end.  They also said that once we make our commission the playing field is leveled, we can make sub-Lt./Lt, at the same pace as DEO it wont be held against us, but the 12000 less that we will make in that time is their way of saving the money to pay for our schooling.


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## gcclarke (8 Oct 2009)

Hmmmm from what I can find on the DIN and on some older forums on this site discussing the issue, it appears that I was incorrect. 

And yeah, I would say those two board members have a much better idea of how the CEOTP program works than I do. I think I was just mistaken as to when some of my former co-workers recieved their commission.


----------



## meni0n (8 Oct 2009)

If you go CEOTP internally, you keep your current pay level, just don`t go up in IPC.


----------



## oldandgrey (11 Oct 2009)

For my pay, i kept the same pay level as i was in the UT program. however, with RMC backing and requested by RMC is one of the main reason why I switch over from UT to CEOTP. However, following the policy of the CEOTP it seem to me I have been put to the side, i.e. CDA suppose to contact me in ref to ILP which never happen. but i already have a plan in place before i switch over. nevertheless that i am not worry about. its the policy on promotion. everyone has a different ideas on the wording and i want to see if there any thing that set the policy straight. I will continue my research once i finish my crs.


----------



## Jayson Wonder (11 Oct 2009)

DIESEL 007 said:
			
		

> hello, while on my NOAB course it was made clear to me that under the CEOTP a Ncdt does not receive his/her commission until the completion of their MOC training, for me that means: BMOQ, NETPO, MARS III and MARS IV, this will take anywhere from 1.5 to 2 years depending on gaps in training.  A DEO officer will be promoted directly after completion of their BMOQ.  This is straight from two of the board members involved in personnel selection and training from Ottawa.  It was hard for me to hear that I will only make 700 a pay for that long, thats a 60% pay- cut!! But it will pay-off in the end.  They also said that once we make our commission the playing field is leveled, we can make sub-Lt./Lt, at the same pace as DEO it wont be held against us, but the 12000 less that we will make in that time is their way of saving the money to pay for our schooling.



Hey Diesel,

I am sure we may have met not that long ago at NOAB 0903. This question is exacly the same as the one I was asking all week. Of course I got varied answers and came back still unclear. After coming back home and going into my CFRC to discus next steps with regards to my offer I was told by the recruiter that upon completion of BMOQ we will become commissioned and promoted to a rank of Acting Sub Ltn. They said that sometimes this ocurrs at St. Jean and if not, shortly after. I was very happy to hear this becasue the financial hardship for myself and family for the short term would probably sink us.

I asked the recuriter if this would be anywhere in writing becasue of all the mixed information I had been givne thus far and they said this was the way it works and it would be clear in my posting message. I was given a verbal offer and picked up a letter with the offer but see not posting message or anything regarding pay scale or rank so I hope to get clarification on this on Tuesday and I need to know to plan because Oct 19th is nto far away.

If anyone has clear info on the actually policy please share.

Thanks,


----------



## fireman1867 (11 Oct 2009)

I enrolled under CEOTP (2006) and was promoted to 2Lt upon completion of BOTP. Two seperate CEOTP instructions exist I believe you would fall under the new one like me.


----------



## DIESEL 007 (11 Oct 2009)

JW, 

yes im sure we met that week, commander Lahaie and I had a long talk and she seemed to really know what she was talking about... Although I looked and looked for someone at NOTC venture for the single thin stripe of a Ncdt and could not find one.  This and firemans post are uplifting my spirits but a word of advice for you is not to get your hopes up about it, it would be a nice surprise to get the commission then and I will leave it at that.
Hurry up and wait!!
see you next week,

Jay Finlayson


----------



## Jayson Wonder (11 Oct 2009)

DIESEL 007 said:
			
		

> JW,
> 
> yes im sure we met that week, commander Lahaie and I had a long talk and she seemed to really know what she was talking about... Although I looked and looked for someone at NOTC venture for the single thin stripe of a Ncdt and could not find one.  This and firemans post are uplifting my spirits but a word of advice for you is not to get your hopes up about it, it would be a nice surprise to get the commission then and I will leave it at that.
> Hurry up and wait!!
> ...



For sure, next will be the start of a whole new adventure. I will not get my hopes up about the details regarding promotion until I have it in writing or see the policy that impacts. For me personnaly it will be tight if I have to wait 1.5 - 2 but the fact of having the chance to serve as a members of the CF and enter such a challenging and rewarding career is awesome. In 3 - 5 years if all goes well we will be in good shape.

See ya in about a week.

Regards,


----------



## fireman1867 (12 Oct 2009)

Here is the new CEOTP instruction that would apply to you. http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/pd/pi-ip/09-05-eng.asp

Here is the ref



> 4.6 Promotion and Career
> 
> Under the CEOTP
> 
> * All candidates enrolled in the CEOTP shall hold the rank of OCdt/NCdt until completion of basic officer training, unless initially granted higher rank, Incentive Pay Category, or Time Counting for Promotion in recognition of previous service or training.



hope that relieves some of your stress any other questions let me know.

cheers,


----------



## Jayson Wonder (13 Oct 2009)

Thank you very much. This information is very helpful and actually makes my day.

Thanks,


----------



## eliminator (2 Dec 2009)

I cant get a straight answer from BOR or CM. Here's my story.

ROTP Promoted to 2Lt effective 1 May 2006 (EPZ to Lt. 1 May 2007)

Failed AEC training, new trade effective Aug 2007, new EPZ to Lt. 13 Jan 2008)

I will be complete my trades training in a few months and will be subsequently promoted to Lt

I'm told that promotion to Captain in my trade is just a time thing, so the CM thinks my promo to Captain should be effective Aug 2010, while others are telling me it should be effective Jan 2010.

I know it's not a big deal, Jan to Aug, but I'm just looking for a clear answer.  Not to mention the fact of being a fresh Capt with no Lt time really.....


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## captloadie (2 Dec 2009)

Having gone through the same process, I can give you my experience. All my EPZs were based off the date of the completion of my phase training. I completed Phase IV Log in Oct 00, then I was promoted to LT. I was promoted Capt in 02, the usual mandatory 2 years in rank as an LT. However, I did my phase training back to back, and there was no time awaiting training. Normally, you are only credited with the time you have awaited training, if it was considered excessive and at not fault of the member. However, when it is a COT due to failure, we aren't given much grace. You really need to consult the new regs on this, as they have changed/been reworded since my COT.


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## Hastings (2 Jan 2010)

I don't know if this helps anyone.  

But I just finished BMOQ and we had lots of people on the CEOTP entry plan in many different trades; MARS, INF, ART, AEC, etc and all got their commissions at the end of the course.  What I did hear and this is purely chatter from someone who talked to a clerk, nothing first hand.  DEO get paid as 2LT while at BMOQ, if they are being paid as OCDT/NCDT's they are reimbursed at the end of the course for the difference between the amount they were getting paid and 2LT pay.  CEOTP were paid OCDT pay and DO NOT get reimbursed for the time they were at BMOQ.


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## 30 for 30 (2 Jun 2010)

Can someone detail what is needed to achieve Sgt in a reserve inf unit?

BMQ
BMQ (L)
Pl wpns crse?
PLQ
PLQ Inf
ILQ

Is that correct? What else is required to get "made" at the NCM level? Thanks for any insight.


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## harry8422 (2 Jun 2010)

What do you mean by "get made"? and yes those are some of the courses you do need.


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## PMedMoe (2 Jun 2010)

Time in?   Good PERs?  Good leadership ability?

It's more than just courses.

I don't believe ILQ is a requirement.


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## vonGarvin (2 Jun 2010)

To be considered for promotion to Sgt in the Infantry (Reg or Reserve), one must have completed DP 3A.  (All that other stuff is "along the way")

If you want it "from the start":
BMQ
DP1 INFMN
PLQ (L)
PLQ (Inf)
DP 3A

NOTE: IPSWQ "may" be a prerequisite for DP 3A.  Of this I'm not 100% Certain.  

NOTE: Infantrymen don't attend BMQ-L.


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## charlesm (2 Jun 2010)

BMQ-L is till required for the INF reserves.

They are still being run in Edmonton this year.

IPSWQ is a requirement for PLQ Inf

BMQ
BMQ-L
DP1 INFM

+ 2 years In can be promoted to Cpl

IPSWQ
PLQ Mod 1-5
PLQ Mod 6(INF)
+ 2 years as a Cpl can be promoted MCpl

DP3A
+2 years as a MCpl then can be promoted to Sgt. (Depending upon PER etc.)


Of course they are changing the IPSWQ, DP3A and Mod 6 Inf over the next couple of years.


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## Haggis (2 Jun 2010)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> To be considered for promotion to Sgt in the Infantry (Reg or Reserve), one must have completed DP 3A.  (All that other stuff is "along the way")
> 
> If you want it "from the start":
> BMQ
> ...



It's CF PLQ then PLQ (Inf).  Non Infantry soldiers do CFPLQ and PLQ (L)



			
				Technoviking said:
			
		

> NOTE: IPSWQ "may" be a prerequisite for DP 3A.  Of this I'm not 100% Certain.


 IPSW is a prerequisite for PLQ (Inf).



			
				Technoviking said:
			
		

> NOTE: Infantrymen don't attend BMQ-L.



P Res Infantrymen do.


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## vonGarvin (2 Jun 2010)

charlesm said:
			
		

> BMQ-L is still required for the INF reserves.


I am currently a board member on the Qualification Standard writing board for DP1 Infantryman, and from LFWA TC, LFCA TC and  SQFT TC, they have all said that PRes Infantrymen attend BMQ, but not BMQ-L: They go from BMQ to DP1, and there are some associated problems with that; however, the 'delta' is made up on DP1 Infantryman.



			
				Haggis said:
			
		

> It's CF PLQ then PLQ (Inf).  Non Infantry soldiers do CFPLQ and PLQ (L)
> IPSW is a prerequisite for PLQ (Inf).


Thanks!


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## Eye In The Sky (2 Jun 2010)

charlesm said:
			
		

> + 2 years as a Cpl can be promoted appointed MCpl


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## aesop081 (2 Jun 2010)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> I am currently a board member on the Qualification Standard writing board for DP1 Infantryman, and from LFWA TC, LFCA TC and  SQFT TC, they have all said that PRes Infantrymen attend BMQ, but not BMQ-L: They go from BMQ to DP1,Thanks!



That hardly qualifies you, or them, to comment. Please refrain in the future.

 :


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## vonGarvin (2 Jun 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> That hardly qualifies you, or them, to comment. Please refrain in the future.
> 
> :


:rofl:
Of course, heaven forbid if ANYONE follows the QS ;D


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## Nfld Sapper (2 Jun 2010)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> :rofl:
> Of course, heaven forbid if ANYONE follows the QS ;D



There are QS's for courses...... ;D


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## Haggis (2 Jun 2010)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> I am currently a board member on the Qualification Standard writing board for DP1 Infantryman, and from LFWA TC, LFCA TC and  SQFT TC, they have all said that PRes Infantrymen attend BMQ, but not BMQ-L: They go from BMQ to DP1, and there are some associated problems with that; however, the 'delta' is made up on DP1 Infantryman.



LFCATC is still running BMQ (L) during RST this Summer.  There is a huge delta between Army Reserve BMQ and the "CF" (i.e. Reg F Air Reserve and Naval Reserve) BMQ QS.  If you have found a way to close the delta without additional training days (beyond what was in BMQ (L) and DP1)  then go for it!!


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## rifleman (2 Jun 2010)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> There are QS's for courses...... ;D



of course there is. currently they are considering taking "over the top boys" as the order for a charge from the trenches


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## vonGarvin (4 Jun 2010)

CORRECTION to my earlier post:
The CURRENT path for P Res Infantryman is:
BMQ
BMQ-L
DP1
etc

The new way, pending approval for implementation in 2011 is:
BMQ
DP1
Etc.
Now, there will be a transitional portion of training between BMQ and DP1: call it "army camping" or whatever, to make up that field portion that they don't get on BMQ.


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## Danjanou (4 Jun 2010)

There used to be a couple of othere on that list, or at least there were when I earned my sash,.... Drive and Determination, or have they been removed from the list Techno? ;D


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## vonGarvin (4 Jun 2010)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> There used to be a couple of othere on that lis, or at least there were when I earned my sash,.... Drive and Determination, or have they been removed from the list Techno? ;D


Drive and Determination no longer required  ;D


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## Bzzliteyr (4 Jun 2010)

I thought it was all about just showing up.. and attending the mess at the end of the night to make those special "connections" that will get you promoted?


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## jake830 (5 Jun 2010)

I know this is kind of off topic, but seemed like the most relevant topic to post this question I have.

I just recently got sworn into an infantry reserve unit, and will be completing BMQ, SQ, and DP1 this summer. My question is, qualifications for an Pres infantryman to serve a tour? I've heard alot of different answers, some such as, Trades qualified, 2 years service, atleast a Corporal. 

Can someone try to help me out, 

Thank you


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## vonGarvin (5 Jun 2010)

To be able to be deployed, you need to be trades qualified as per the regular force standard.  Now, what does this really mean?
You are an infantryman.  In the PRes, you will do certain modules of DP 1 Infantryman to be qualified to be employed as a rifleman in a reserve unit.  There is some training involved that you will need to complete to be qualified DP 1 Infantry (regular).  That will complete your individual training to get you to the complete standard required of an infantryman according to the Qualification standard. 
You do not need to have x amount of years in, or to be of a certain rank: you only need to be qualified to the same standard as a regular force infantryman.
Once you have completed the individual training requirements, you could then be selected for the collective training cycle prior to deployment, which we call the Road to High Readiness (or R2HR) training.

For more detail as to what this all means for you, talk to your superiors.  Cheers!  Welcome aboard!


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## Biggoals2bdone (8 Jul 2010)

Hastings, that is of course unless you are a transfer from the NCM's, where you will end up getting your NCM pay, until you match or surpass that pay, in the officer category, at least that's what I have been told, as I have been looking at this option.


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## LoKe (16 Aug 2010)

What are the requirements in order to get your first hook?  Is it simply 30 months in, or do you have to complete your QL3's?


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## Occam (16 Aug 2010)

One prerequisite for promotion to AB is being able to look up regulations and orders, such as CFAO 49-4, Career Policy Non-Commissioned Members Regular Force.


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## Biohazardxj (16 Aug 2010)

Yes you need to be 3's qualified and in some cases 4's also.


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## Pusser (17 Aug 2010)

Occam said:
			
		

> One prerequisite for promotion to AB is being able to look up regulations and orders, such as CFAO 49-4, Career Policy Non-Commissioned Members Regular Force.



Yes, because that is a simple straight forward document that is entirely up to date and easy to read and understand.  It's also equally applied to all occupations, which of course are absolutely identical in their structure and their determination of progress. ;D


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## Occam (17 Aug 2010)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Yes, because that is a simple straight forward document that is entirely up to date and easy to read and understand.  It's also equally applied to all occupations, which of course are absolutely identical in their structure and their determination of progress. ;D



CFAO 49-4, Annex A, Table 1, Serial 2 looks fairly simple to me, and even appears to have been updated as recently as 2005.

_"Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach a man how to fish, you feed him for life."_
                                   -Chinese Proverb


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## Pat in Halifax (17 Aug 2010)

Sorry Pusser; Gotta take Occam's side in this one. What I find a little disturbing is that LoKe may have been intimidated asking his divisional chain. This is a classic question to a 'senior' killick from a new OD in ANY trade on board.
LoKe, you are highly encouraged to query supervisors on this kind of stuff - It actually can be the start up of setting up a rapore with supervisors.


----------



## blacktriangle (17 Aug 2010)

Lot's of guys go from no hook ----> Cpl. It's not a big deal. It's not like having a hook gets you more money.

I'd reccomend just going with the flow.


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## ModlrMike (17 Aug 2010)

The last time I asked this question of Careers, the answer was 30 months AND QL3. The rationale being that QL3 is your apprentice level training, and the 1st hook is essentially the mark of an apprentice training to be a journeyman.

Given the long training cycle for MedTechs, we've had plenty of folks qualify QL3 after 30 months, and receive their 1st hook as they arrive at the unit.


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## Ex-Dragoon (17 Aug 2010)

Spectrum said:
			
		

> Lot's of guys go from no hook ----> Cpl. It's not a big deal. It's not like having a hook gets you more money.
> 
> I'd reccomend just going with the flow.



Have you ever seen it done that way in a Naval environment? If it happens and I have never seen it, it must be a rare thing.


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## LoKe (17 Aug 2010)

I wasn't intimidated to ask my chain.  It's just that everyone seems to have a different answer.  I've been told by someone in Halifax that it's 30 months.  I've been told by others that it's 30 months and QL3's.

I've also seen people who have not completed their 3's in any trade with a hook.  And there are a couple members with over 30 months and their 3's completed at my unit who do not have their hook, even though it has been brought up and parades have already occurred.  

And I unfortunately don't keep a copy of all the orders on my personal computer.  Must be a shortcoming.

*EDIT*: Not to mention the CFAO 49-4 also states that you need your QL5a in order to be promoted to Corporal, which is not the case.


----------



## PuckChaser (17 Aug 2010)

For your trade, members need to complete their upclass and usually get promoted around the 30 month mark of service once they're posted to either Letrim or the EW Regt.


----------



## aesop081 (17 Aug 2010)

LoKe said:
			
		

> Must be a shortcoming.



It is not. The attitude in this part of your response is, however.


----------



## LoKe (17 Aug 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> It is not. The attitude in this part of your response is, however.


It is simply my frustration coming out in regards to the CFAO's not always being up-to-date.

I wasn't aware that I offended anyone.



			
				PuckChaser said:
			
		

> For your trade, members need to complete their upclass and usually get promoted around the 30 month mark of service once they're posted to either Letrim or the EW Regt.


This seems to jive with most of what I've seen.  However, I work with people at the 21EW Regt who meet all criteria and still haven't been given their hook, yet others with the same qualifications have.

I'm just trying to figure out what else is considered.


----------



## ModlrMike (17 Aug 2010)

Why are we beating this subject to death?

The CFAO is still in force as it has not been superseded by a DAOD. To wit: 30 months AND QL3. 

It can't be more plain than that.


----------



## LoKe (17 Aug 2010)

Perhaps I'm misreading the CFAO, then.  Note 2 implies that the requirement was removed by an issued CANFORGEN, which I can't seem to access.  Unless note 3 is saying that the change was undone?


----------



## ModlrMike (17 Aug 2010)

LoKe said:
			
		

> Not to mention the CFAO 49-4 also states that you need your QL5a in order to be promoted to Corporal, which is not the case.



You need QL5 to become substantive. You can be promoted A/LQ without it.


----------



## ModlrMike (17 Aug 2010)

LoKe said:
			
		

> Perhaps I'm misreading the CFAO, then.  Note 2 implies that the requirement was removed by an issued CANFORGEN, which I can't seem to access.



I don't have access either, so I can't comment. I'll see what I can dig up. In the meantime, I think the CFAO still stands.


----------



## LoKe (17 Aug 2010)

Thank you for clarifying that!


----------



## PuckChaser (17 Aug 2010)

LoKe said:
			
		

> This seems to jive with most of what I've seen.  However, I work with people at the 21EW Regt who meet all criteria and still haven't been given their hook, yet others with the same qualifications have.
> 
> I'm just trying to figure out what else is considered.



Some factors that affect it are: Chain of command filing the paperwork, your job performance to date, when the next promotion parade is. If you're due, you're due. You shouldn't have to, but a polite reminder to your det commander can get the paperwork done and the hook placed on your chest.

Yes, its an automatic promotion, but it can be delayed a few months as most see it as a sign you are now fully qualified and can be trusted to work at your job with little supervision.


----------



## PMedMoe (17 Aug 2010)

The CANFORGEN referred to deals with physical fitness and universality of service.


----------



## LoKe (17 Aug 2010)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Some factors that affect it are: Chain of command filing the paperwork, your job performance to date, when the next promotion parade is. If you're due, you're due. You shouldn't have to, but a polite reminder to your det commander can get the paperwork done and the hook placed on your chest.
> 
> Yes, its an automatic promotion, but it can be delayed a few months as most see it as a sign you are now fully qualified and can be trusted to work at your job with little supervision.


Suppose that makes sense.  I just made the incorrect assumption that a given rank was a given rank.  I didn't realize there would be conditions attached.

Though it doesn't really apply to my situation.  I'm 30 months in without my QL3.  I don't really care to have my hook, as I realize I'm not qualified and it wouldn't make too much sense.  I just heard that I was entitled to it due to some CANFORGEN, but that is seemingly not the case.

Thanks everyone for the answers.  I guess this is resolved, unless someone cares to clarify on the CANFORGEN issue.
*EDIT*:





			
				PMedMoe said:
			
		

> The CANFORGEN referred to deals with physical fitness and universality of service.


I'm not really sure what this means.  Would you be willing to clarify?


----------



## PMedMoe (17 Aug 2010)

LoKe said:
			
		

> I'm not really sure what this means.  Would you be willing to clarify?



Just that for promotion (although, I don't think it applies to the first hook), one must have met:



> THE MINIMUM OPERATIONAL STANDARDS RELATED TO UNIVERSALITY OF SERVICE AS SET OUT IN DAOD 5023-1 WHICH INCLUDES SUCCESSFUL COMPLETION OF THE APPLICABLE FITNESS STANDARD


----------



## LoKe (17 Aug 2010)

Oh, ok.  I misread the CFAO anyway, and the CANFORGEN doesn't really apply to that promotion zone anyway.

Thanks!


----------



## kincanucks (17 Aug 2010)

A recurring theme for serving members asking questions on this site is because they are are not familiar with orders and regulations (a failure of the CoC and the individual) or because they see someone else getting something that they feel they are entitled to because they think they are exactly at the same status or level as that person.  With career progression, research orders and regulations and talk to your CoC even to the point of asking why someone else is getting something when you believe you are at the same level as them.  Your CoC should set you straight or get off their asses and take some action.  While we want to believe, that as leaders and supervisors, we have the straight dope on all of our subordinates and their career progression, sadly, we don't.  And sometimes it takes that subordinate to come to us and say "WTF Sir/Ma'am" for us to take the appropriate action.  Keep in mind, the response some parents give their children when they ask for something because some other kid has it, "If they were eating sh@t, would you want some too?"


----------



## Pusser (18 Aug 2010)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Why are we beating this subject to death?
> 
> The CFAO is still in force as it has not been superseded by a DAOD. To wit: 30 months AND QL3.
> 
> It can't be more plain than that.



No, it is not necessarily that plain.  Just because a CFAO has not been superceded by a DAOD does not mean it is up to date.  Many CFAOS which are still valid are wildly out of date and must be read in conjunction with a slough of CANFORGENS and other assorted messages and policy statements in order to be interpreted correctly (please note that I am speaking generically and not necessarily to this CFAO as I do not have the means to check it at the moment).  Policy interpretation can sometimes be a huge can of worms, so it is no small wonder that people get confused and policy gets applied unevenly.  I should also note that this is not a new problem.

With regard to the issue of this thread, it is a complex issue.  Some occupations seem to give out the hook upon completion of the appropriate course and time in.  Others require the completion of an OJT package (standards for which can vary from unit to unit).  Still others (some of the naval technical trades for example) require passing a Fleet Exam.  The bottom line is that it is not a consistent process and things vary between the different occupations.  Furthermore, because this promotion is upon the CO's authority, it can vary from unit to unit.


----------



## ModlrMike (18 Aug 2010)

Pusser said:
			
		

> No, it is not necessarily that plain.  Just because a CFAO has not been superceded by a DAOD does not mean it is up to date.  Many CFAOS which are still valid are wildly out of date and must be read in conjunction with a slough of CANFORGENS and other assorted messages and policy statements in order to be interpreted correctly (please note that I am speaking generically and not necessarily to this CFAO as I do not have the means to check it at the moment).  Policy interpretation can sometimes be a huge can of worms, so it is no small wonder that people get confused and policy gets applied unevenly.  I should also note that this is not a new problem.
> 
> With regard to the issue of this thread, it is a complex issue.  Some occupations seem to give out the hook upon completion of the appropriate course and time in.  Others require the completion of an OJT package (standards for which can vary from unit to unit).  Still others (some of the naval technical trades for example) require passing a Fleet Exam.  The bottom line is that it is not a consistent process and things vary between the different occupations.  Furthermore, because this promotion is upon the CO's authority, it can vary from unit to unit.



I admit I thought that very thing right after my last post. I probably should have either deleted or modified it for clarity. I guess the most telling part of all of this is that it's up to the CO, so a high degree of variability is to be expected.

I was basing my comments from the perspective of my branch alone, and not considering the bigger picture.

I stand corrected.


----------



## NDC (22 Oct 2010)

Yes, I searched, couldnt find the info I was curious about.

So, I am pretty sure I am going to try to join soon, and my dream job is as a Reg Forces Musician, yet its not the easiest to get into (not to mention next auditon period is next september), so while I am going to try for that eventually for sure, I've been looking into other trades which interest me, and there are afew that do, which I might try to do for afew years before, just for the experience, then try for Musician after my first contract is done in 5 years or so..

But something I was told by someone whos in the reg forces right now, is that an idea that might be best, especially in my situation where I eventually want to either OT or wait out my first contract, is to join the reserves first, spend a year or so to become a Cpl, then to join the reg forces. 

He was saying that in the Reg Forces, it can take 3-4+ years to become a Cpl, while in the Reserves it is significantly shorter, like 1 year (assuming your CO recommends you).. Is this true?? 

I dunno if I'll do that, cause my city doesnt have much for reserves anyways (that im interested in) and I think I would rather be fulltime from the start, but Its an option I'll look into if thats the case, which might help if I did switch and be a Cpl sooner than if I join Reg forces from the start..

Any insight?


----------



## Nauticus (22 Oct 2010)

If I'm correct, a reservist may get promoted to Cpl after 2 or more years of service. And no, once you're a Cpl in the reserves, you may not still be a Cpl if you transfer to the regular force. I don't recall the "time-in" requirements to keep your rank, but after 2 years as a reservist Cpl, you won't be a Cpl in the regular force.

Like really, you train one night a week, one weekend a month and may get promoted more quickly, and you are suggesting that it compares to the promotions of the regular force?


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## George Wallace (22 Oct 2010)

There are quite a few factors involved here, so there is no "Simple Answer".

In the Reserves you may have a shorter time requirement to become a Cpl, but you will still have to meet the requirements of being "Trade Qualified".   If you are a Reserve Cpl, and qualified in a Trade that has Regular Force standards on your Trades courses, and you have a Deployment under your belt, you MAY retain your rank on a Component Transfer to the Regular Force, if you are not doing an Occupational Transfer (changing Trades) as well.   If you think you can do all this in less than two years, you would likely find that you are wrong in that assumption.


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## PuckChaser (22 Oct 2010)

Its pretty difficult to figure out rank retention. I just had a member posted into my unit who got his MCpls just before he transferred to the RegF, and he retained it. No tour, not even as a Cpl. It may very well depend on the career manager for the trade you're transferring into, and how packed full of experience your MPRR is.


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## Celticgirl (24 Oct 2010)

Nauticus said:
			
		

> If I'm correct, a reservist may get promoted to Cpl after 2 or more years of service. And no, once you're a Cpl in the reserves, you may not still be a Cpl if you transfer to the regular force. I don't recall the "time-in" requirements to keep your rank, but after 2 years as a reservist Cpl, you won't be a Cpl in the regular force.



According to my superiors, this is incorrect. If you are trade qualified to QL5A, have your two years' seniority, and you are not doing an OT as well, there should be no rank relinquishment upon doing a CT to Reg F. 



> Like really, you train one night a week, one weekend a month and may get promoted more quickly, and you are suggesting that it compares to the promotions of the regular force?



Like really, you do know that not all reservists are one-night-a-week soldiers? Some of us actually work 40 hrs a week in the PRes. A lot of us, as a matter of fact. 

If you look up the promotions guidelines, you will see that the rate for being promoted is the same for all ranks other than Private to Corporal (shorter in the Reserves) and MWO to CWO (longer in the Reserves).


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## aesop081 (24 Oct 2010)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> Like really, you do know that not all reservists are one-night-a-week soldiers? Some of us actually work 40 hrs a week in the PRes. A lot of us, as a matter of fact.



Notwithstanding the fact that we dont realy have an air reserve ( since we seem to employ the vast majority full-time), the army reserves is much larger and its part-time staff dwarfs the air reserve.

40 hours a week eh ? whats it like having that much free time ?   ;D


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## Celticgirl (25 Oct 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Notwithstanding the fact that we dont realy have an air reserve ( since we seem to employ the vast majority full-time), the army reserves is much larger and its part-time staff dwarfs the air reserve.
> 
> 40 hours a week eh ? whats it like having that much free time ?   ;D



Yes, but that's 40 hours plus a second job I do two evenings a week plus volunteering with my daughter's Girl Guide troop...it sure feels like a full dance card to me.  :blotto:

By the way, I am less familiar with the promotion policy (i.e. if it differs) for Army because I know that the training is different (not Reg F trg like the Air Res does). Does that affect them upon CT? I could see where it might, actually, but I don't recall ever seeing that in the pubs I have studied.

Cdn Aviator, you know everything...riddle me that.  ;D


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## FDO (25 Oct 2010)

No body can say for sure whether you will retain your rank with a CT. When I did I had 4 years as a Reserve. 2 1/2 full time and several deployments with the RegF. I lost it all and went in as an OD with QL3 and one year towards seniority. Today it all depends on what the Occupation Manager decides you will be offered. I don't know what the criteria are for each individual trade but I'm sure it will all depend on your training, time in and of course the most important thing, "needs of the service"!!


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## Nauticus (25 Oct 2010)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> According to my superiors, this is incorrect. If you are trade qualified to QL5A, have your two years' seniority, and you are not doing an OT as well, there should be no rank relinquishment upon doing a CT to Reg F.
> 
> Like really, you do know that not all reservists are one-night-a-week soldiers? Some of us actually work 40 hrs a week in the PRes. A lot of us, as a matter of fact.
> 
> If you look up the promotions guidelines, you will see that the rate for being promoted is the same for all ranks other than Private to Corporal (shorter in the Reserves) and MWO to CWO (longer in the Reserves).



I'm not taking anything away from the reserves, but when it takes less time to get promoted from Pte to Cpl, plus less actual training, you can't expect to keep your rank in the reg force. They do take this into account. With that said, if you've proven yourself in the reserves, you may keep your rank should you also complete the other criteria that you mentioned.

The reserves are fantastic at what they do, but I (and in general, the CF) don't equate a part-time role to a full-time role. If you ARE on a full-time contract, that is one of the many variables that they will look at, but if you aren't, a part-time job should not and is not looked at equal to the full time reg force in terms of rank.


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## George Wallace (25 Oct 2010)

Nauticus said:
			
		

> I'm not taking anything away from the reserves, but when it takes less time to get promoted from Pte to Cpl, plus less actual training, you can't expect to keep your rank in the reg force. They do take this into account. With that said, if you've proven yourself in the reserves, you may keep your rank should you also complete the other criteria that you mentioned.
> 
> The reserves are fantastic at what they do, but I (and in general, the CF) don't equate a part-time role to a full-time role. If you ARE on a full-time contract, that is one of the many variables that they will look at, but if you aren't, a part-time job should not and is not looked at equal to the full time reg force in terms of rank.



Not all Courses, nor all Trades, in the Reserves get a lower quality of training as you allude to.  There are Trades that get the EXACT SAME training as the Regular Force, and in some cases better.  So don't fool yourself with the idea that Reservists get less training and experience.  Every QL5A Crse I have instructed on has been made up of both Reg and Reserve candidates, all meeting the same required levels as laid out in the QL5A TP.  There is only one QL5A TP in this Trade and it is for both Reg and Reserve.  Not all Trades are the same, so do not GENERALIZE all as being lesser than the Reg Force.

At the same time, there are getting to be some huge "training deltas" being developed in other Trades that really leave the Reservists in that Trade totally liking in the skills required of Reg Force Members in that Trade.  Armour is one such Trade, where the lack of Vehs, Radios, and Wpns of the type used by their Regular Force counterparts has created a whole lack of "trained Reservists" to create a pool to draw from.  An unfortunate situation of lack of money and equipment to properly equip the Regular Force, let alone the Reserves.

So take the fol as good advice:



			
				Retired FDO said:
			
		

> No body can say for sure whether you will retain your rank with a CT. When I did I had 4 years as a Reserve. 2 1/2 full time and several deployments with the RegF. I lost it all and went in as an OD with QL3 and one year towards seniority. Today it all depends on what the Occupation Manager decides you will be offered. I don't know what the criteria are for each individual trade but I'm sure it will all depend on your training, time in and of course the most important thing, "needs of the service"!!


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## justwinbaby (11 Nov 2010)

I was talking to a recruiter the other day and he said that since i have not finished my degree, to join as a mars officer i would have to sign a 9 year commitment and complete my degree in that time.  Sounds fair, but my main concern is I am currently a civilian Captain and do not want my Transport Canada rating to expire while i am serving my country, nor do i want to get out in 9 years and find out my sea time doesn't translate.  

Some of you may be thinking why would a Captain want to start fresh again. basically because i need job security/good pension and military training is superior.  I know with my current training I will excel in MARS school but my question to you is, is doing university school while in the service hard?, or are you provided free time? And what sort of promotions could i be looking forward to during my 9 years?  I was told that it is capped at Sub-LT, but i noticed there is lots of pay grades within that rank. Thanks for your time and answers


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## Acer Syrup (12 Nov 2010)

Lots of threads on MARS and the training... if you have already started a degree you could be eligible for CEOTP. Which would be 13 year VIE. Also a thread on MARS and Civilian equivalencies. My watch officer on the NOAB was civilian trained as well... He said he had a hard time adjusting to the Navy way of doing things and failed MARS III. He reprogrammed himself the Navy way and was good to go. Rank is different for everyone... I deducted that on average most MARS reach Lt(N) in about 4/5 years. As CEOTP you would be Pay Level B and increments go up by years served in that rank.

Make sure you research your entry plan and it is right for you... On the last NOAB there was a guy there 18 with no post secondary education and the CFRC had him there for CEOTP and a engineering candidate that had a degree not suitable for his desired MOC. Both were not offered positions. Personally I think these are gross errors and they should have never been lead down that certain path.


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## MMSS (13 Nov 2010)

"Rank is different for everyone... I deducted that on average most MARS reach Lt(N) in about 4/5 years."

What I have gleaned so far from the various threads is that upon reaching one year past enrollment a MARS A/Slt officer is eligible for automatic promotion to Slt with subsequent automatic promotion to Lt(N) after 3 years. Eligible meaning it does not necessarily happen immediately. Caveat: I have not yet been accepted, or completed BMOQ, or passed NOAB. Further caveat is that my desired path would be DEO. But FWIW that's what I had picked up on.


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## Zoomie (13 Nov 2010)

MMSS said:
			
		

> Eligible meaning it does not necessarily happen immediately.



Normal rank progression occurs 99% of the time - once you are qualified for your next rank, you get promoted.  The only way that this would not happen is if you were a complete screw up and your CO made huge efforts to block it.


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## Lex Parsimoniae (13 Nov 2010)

MMSS said:
			
		

> "Rank is different for everyone... I deducted that on average most MARS reach Lt(N) in about 4/5 years."
> 
> What I have gleaned so far from the various threads is that upon reaching one year past enrollment a MARS A/Slt officer is eligible for automatic promotion to Slt with subsequent automatic promotion to Lt(N) after 3 years. Eligible meaning it does not necessarily happen immediately. Caveat: I have not yet been accepted, or completed BMOQ, or passed NOAB. Further caveat is that my desired path would be DEO. But FWIW that's what I had picked up on.


When I went through MARS training, OCTP (the old program that CEOTP replaced) candidates were promoted A/SLt upon successful completion of MARS III and SLt upon successful completion of MARS IV.  DEO were promoted to A/SLt upon successful completion of BOTC (BMOC) and promoted to SLt upon successful completion of MARS IV.  Promotion to Lt(N) generally follows achievement of your Certificate of Competency Level II.  YMMV.


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## MMSS (15 Nov 2010)

Lex Parsimoniae said:
			
		

> When I went through MARS training, OCTP (the old program that CEOTP replaced) candidates were promoted A/SLt upon successful completion of MARS III and SLt upon successful completion of MARS IV.  DEO were promoted to A/SLt upon successful completion of BOTC (BMOC) and promoted to SLt upon successful completion of MARS IV.  Promotion to Lt(N) generally follows achievement of your Certificate of Competency Level II.  YMMV.



That seems logical to me. Commission after BMOQ since I already have a degree, then promotion upon successful completion of seamanship/watchkeeping.


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## Dipstick (15 Nov 2010)

MMSS said:
			
		

> "Rank is different for everyone... I deducted that on average most MARS reach Lt(N) in about 4/5 years."
> 
> What I have gleaned so far from the various threads is that upon reaching one year past enrollment a MARS A/Slt officer is eligible for automatic promotion to Slt with subsequent automatic promotion to Lt(N) after 3 years. Eligible meaning it does not necessarily happen immediately. Caveat: I have not yet been accepted, or completed BMOQ, or passed NOAB. Further caveat is that my desired path would be DEO. But FWIW that's what I had picked up on.



As it stands now, you'll be comissioned an A/SLt after BMOQ.  SLt will follow after 1 year as an A/SLt, and completion of MARS IV.  Lt(N) comes after passing your NOPQ (aka CofC II) board, usually two years later.

If you enter under ROTP, you'll attend school full-time for four years, before serving 5 years obligatory service.  CEOTP allows you to go straight to work, with the understanding that you work toward your degree on your own time.


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## MMSS (15 Nov 2010)

Dipstick said:
			
		

> As it stands now, you'll be comissioned an A/SLt after BMOQ.  SLt will follow after 1 year as an A/SLt, and completion of MARS IV.  Lt(N) comes after passing your NOPQ (aka CofC II) board, usually two years later.
> 
> If you enter under ROTP, you'll attend school full-time for four years, before serving 5 years obligatory service.  CEOTP allows you to go straight to work, with the understanding that you work toward your degree on your own time.


thanks!


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## Navy at Heart (24 Nov 2010)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> From Recruiting page:
> Phase II: Basic Health Care Administrator Training
> 
> *Upon successful completion of Phase I, you will be commissioned in the rank of Second Lieutenant or Sub-Lieutenant.*



Whichever recruiting page you got that from, you may want to let them know that Second Lieutenant is the equivalent of an Acting Sub-Lieutenant and Lieutenant is the equivalent of Sub-Lieutenant.


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## captloadie (25 Nov 2010)

For GSO's, there are two separate minimums to be met. First is the training requirement, second is the time in rank. For example, Ocdts are promoted to Slt, and should serve one year in that rank. After the one year, if the prerequisite training is complete, they are promoted. If the training is not completed, due to CF reasons, then once it is completed, the promotion and pay will be back dated to that one year point.

As this post is in the medical group forum, all that goes out the window, as each MOSID seems to have a different criteria. 

Edited for spelling and clarity


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## Pusser (25 Nov 2010)

Last time I checked, there were over 100 different ways to enter the CF as an officer.  All of them effect pay and promotion OCdt through to Captain.  Is it any wonder that junior officers' pay is often screwed up?  The point is that there is not easy answer to the OP's original question, other than, "it depends...."

Having said that, for *general service officers*, (which is almost everybody, including HCAs), you can expect to spend three to four years progressing from OCdt to Captain (not counting any time spent in university under ROTP).  Once you make Captain, all future promotions are based on merit and only can determine how long that will take.

Specialist officers (e.g. lawyers, doctors, dentists) have different rules that can vary significantly.


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## clericalchronicals (3 Feb 2011)

Woooo...clerk intervention...clerk intervention...lol.

Okie dokie, so the CT rank and qualification question...eep.  Lets start off by breaking it up...two items...first, rank.

CMP Released a policy some time ago that authorized career managers of distressed occupations to offer CT's to personnel remaining in the same occupation transfer into a "controlled rank" (MCpl/MS +)  example, PRes CPO2 RMS Clerk CT's to the Reg Force as RMS Clerk, the CM needs 3 MWO/CPO2 RMS Clerks, therefore, can offer transfer to the reg force as a CPO2.  Now, let's mix it up a bit.  Same CPO2 CT's but the CM doesn't need any MWO/CPO2 but needs 10 WO/PO1, the CM will offer transfer as PO1 RMS Clerk.

Now...if the occupation is not distressed, lets say, that same CPO2 RMS Clerk would be offered transfer as LS RMS Clerk.

In addition to all that jazz, when the person transfers, they have to courier all of their old PER's to the Reg Force PER Processing Centre in Ottawa to be scanned in.  So, let's say the CPO2 ct'd and was accepted as a CPO2.  They have 5 immediate PER's from their time as a CPO2 in the reserves, good odds they will get promoted to CPO1 the following year.  Obviously depending on promotion forecasts...so on and so forth.

Now for part 2, qualifications...CDA HQ is the authority on ALL qualification, Reg Force and Res Force.  One's off the top of my head that I can promise you are "transferable" qualifications;

BMQ (Can be BRT)
SQ
PLQ (CF PLQ, PLQ-L, JLC, CLC)
ILQ (SLC)

***ALL SUPPORT OCCUPATIONS!!!!!!***  RMS Clerk, Supply Tech, Cook, Steward (although now an Operations Group Occupation).

The more technical occupations are on a case by case basis.  Regardless, ANY qualification can be transferred using a PLAR...Prior Learning Assessment.  Basically, if you are Res Force MP QL5 Qualified, and you CT, you won't be granted MP QL5, but if you submit a PLAR to CDA HQ and you have ResF MP QL5 and two Class C tours to Afghanistan as an MP...well, you can figure it out!

Cheers!


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## TimBit (3 Feb 2011)

As well, I seem to recall frm reading the policy multiple times that if you hold an uncontrolled rank (Pte, Cpl, 2Lt, Lt, Capt) then you will not lose your rank. Certainly all the officers CT I have seen have followed that rule.


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## JMesh (3 Feb 2011)

For information on rank protection, you'd want to refer to CF Mil Pers Instr 03/08, para 4.7. Available on page 9 of this document: http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/pd/pi-ip/doc/03-08-eng.pdf


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## clericalchronicals (3 Feb 2011)

TimBit...you are on the money there. Uncontrolled ranks are generally left as is.  The only case is when the member doesn't meet the time prerequisites for that rank (ie.  ResF Cpl after 2 years CT's, they are reverted to Pte on CT).

Cheers!


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## Celticgirl (4 Feb 2011)

clericalchronicals said:
			
		

> TimBit...you are on the money there. Uncontrolled ranks are generally left as is.  The only case is when the member doesn't meet the time prerequisites for that rank (ie.  ResF Cpl after 2 years CT's, they are reverted to Pte on CT).
> 
> Cheers!



No, this is not the case anymore.  I will have 2 years in April, will just be finished my 5's, and will get promoted to Cpl.  A WO at D Mil C (the folks that handle CTs) assured me that I would get my CT offer as a Cpl.  They *cannot* take an uncontrolled rank away, 2 years, 4 years, doesn't matter.  It used to be that they would revert you to Pte if you didn't have the equivalent of 4 yrs in + promotion to Cpl upon transferring to the RegF, but that has changed in the past couple of years.


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## TimBit (4 Feb 2011)

Wow, so it would then indeed confirm that it is quicker to go reserves and get promoted before going reg force. How odd...


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## Celticgirl (4 Feb 2011)

TimBit said:
			
		

> Wow, so it would then indeed confirm that it is quicker to go reserves and get promoted before going reg force. How odd...



Yes, and this is a relatively new thing, so I am told.  Our MWO told me the other day, "This is your only freebie...enjoy it."  LOL

People can't always rely on that 2 years, though...it depends a lot of your CoC and how proactive they are (and you as well: keep asking for the career courses you need until you get them).  You _need_ your 5's to get promoted to Cpl in the PRes, unlike the RegF  (more than half the ppl on my upcoming 5's will be Cpls, all RegF).


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## mwhy321 (4 Feb 2011)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> .........You _need_ your 5's to get promoted to Cpl in the PRes, unlike the RegF  (more than half the ppl on my upcoming 5's will be Cpls, all RegF).



They may already be Cpls without their QL5, but don't forget they in all likelyhood have more time in trade and at least 3 years of service and more likely closer to 4 years.


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## George Wallace (4 Feb 2011)

Oh to be purple said:
			
		

> They may already be Cpls without their QL5, but don't forget they in all likelyhood have more time in trade and at least 3 years of service and more likely closer to 4 years.



Whom are you talking about here?  If they are not Trade Qualified, I don't see how they can have that much more TI in their Trade.  As for Reservists becoming Cpls in less time, that is only for those who can commit to training and accomplish those prerequisites to be promoted.   Some, perhaps many, depending on availability of crses and instructors, may take three or four years to become Cpls in the Reserves as well.  In your books, that would also be a fair amount of TI, albeit not a 24/7/365(6 ).


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## Celticgirl (4 Feb 2011)

Oh to be purple said:
			
		

> They may already be Cpls without their QL5, but don't forget they in all likelyhood have more time in trade and at least 3 years of service and more likely closer to 4 years.



My point was that the PRes does not have "acting lacking" ranks.  Ergo, you need your 5's in the _PRes_ to be promoted to Cpl.  The upside being that you can accomplish this in as little as 2 years.  I am aware that to get promoted to Cpl in the RegF usually takes 4 years of "time in", but they don't need their 5's to get it.  

I'll be the only reservist on my course and likely the person with the least "time in", so it should be interesting.  Fortunately, I have been given many responsibilities in my OR (talk about being 'fed through a firehose'), so hopefully that will help me in keeping up.


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## Eowyn (4 Feb 2011)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> My point was that the PRes does not have "acting lacking" ranks.  Ergo, you need your 5's in the _PRes_ to be promoted to Cpl.



That may be the case in the Air Reserve, but in the Army Reserve there are "acting lacking" ranks.  True they are rare.   For the CSS trades, Army Reserve, Pte only need QL3 and 2 years Time in Service.


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## Brasidas (4 Feb 2011)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> My point was that the PRes does not have "acting lacking" ranks.  Ergo, you need your 5's in the _PRes_ to be promoted to Cpl.  The upside being that you can accomplish this in as little as 2 years.  I am aware that to get promoted to Cpl in the RegF usually takes 4 years of "time in", but they don't need their 5's to get it.
> 
> I'll be the only reservist on my course and likely the person with the least "time in", so it should be interesting.  Fortunately, I have been given many responsibilities in my OR (talk about being 'fed through a firehose'), so hopefully that will help me in keeping up.



As Eowyn said, acting lacking corporals exist in the reserve. Knew one who didn't even have his QL3 mod 2 (sig op). Promoted two years after enrolment date, completed his mod 2 twelve months after that, then deployed overseas as a corporal. 

Two year corporal's virtually automatic, barring somebody in the CoC taking a disliking to the private in question. Haven't seen somebody with just BMQ/SQ get it, but it's possible even without completing QL3 or DP1.


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## George Wallace (4 Feb 2011)

Brasidas said:
			
		

> As Eowyn said, acting lacking corporals exist in the reserve. Knew one who didn't even have his QL3 mod 2 (sig op). Promoted two years after enrolment date, completed his mod 2 twelve months after that, then deployed overseas as a corporal.
> 
> Two year corporal's virtually automatic, barring somebody in the CoC taking a disliking to the private in question. Haven't seen somebody with just BMQ/SQ get it, but it's possible even without completing QL3 or DP1.



I am not sure that most units would follow a similar policy as your unit seems to have done.  This does affect the "credibility" of the member, the unit, and the rank.


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## agc (4 Feb 2011)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> My point was that the PRes does not have "acting lacking" ranks.


The reserves will not allow an acting rank, lacking a leadership qualification.  E.g. One cannot be a Master Corporal without PLQ qualification.  Lacking trade qualifications is allowed.  So, a Master Corporal in the reserve with PLQ, could lack QL5.


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## Brasidas (4 Feb 2011)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I am not sure that most units would follow a similar policy as your unit seems to have done.  This does affect the "credibility" of the member, the unit, and the rank.



I don't disagree.

However, said member really was one of the best sigs in the unit, got his qualifications dealt with when and where they could be done, and was selected for promotion based on time in grade and experience. He trained on the kit extensively through OJT, had more hands-on time than several of the corporals in the unit, and was an effective mentor.

I can think of several incompetent ones who affect their own credibility, that of the unit, and the rank. I repeatedly supervised an incompetent corporal as a private myself. I know of one disciplinary failure at CFSCE (reserve) in the last four years, and zero training failures. Having a second  trades course does not a good signaler make, any more than four years does.


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## Celticgirl (4 Feb 2011)

Brasidas said:
			
		

> As Eowyn said, acting lacking corporals exist in the reserve. Knew one who didn't even have his QL3 mod 2 (sig op). Promoted two years after enrolment date, completed his mod 2 twelve months after that, then deployed overseas as a corporal.



Well, deployment would be different; Class C is treated as RegF in most respects, acting/lacking rank included.  A Cpl I worked with was deployed as an 'acting' MCpl, but reverted back to Cpl afterwards because, as she was told, "There is no acting/lacking in the reserves".  I also work with a Pte who was a Cpl with 4 yrs and her 5's in the RegF, who released and re-enrolled in a different trade but was offered Pte because she did not have her 5's in the new trade.  When she questioned it, she was told, "There is no acting/lacking in the reserves."  

Interesting that the Army and Air Force differ on this, though.  I wonder what the Navy's policy is on acting/lacking ranks.    

Does anyone have a ref (pub) handy on the differing policies for acting/lacking in the reserves?


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## aesop081 (4 Feb 2011)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> A Cpl I worked with was deployed as an 'acting' MCpl, but reverted back to Cpl afterwards



It is more likely that this person was deployed WSE - While So employed - vice "acting " for the tour.


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## PuckChaser (4 Feb 2011)

agc said:
			
		

> The reserves will not allow an acting rank, lacking a leadership qualification.  E.g. One cannot be a Master Corporal without PLQ qualification.  Lacking trade qualifications is allowed.  So, a Master Corporal in the reserve with PLQ, could lack QL5.



That's changed, I've seen a lot of acting lack ranks in the PRes now. Sgts finally getting their QL6a, MCpls without their QL5s.


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## kratz (4 Feb 2011)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> Interesting that the Army and Air Force differ on this, though.  I wonder what the Navy's policy is on acting/lacking ranks.
> 
> Does anyone have a ref (pub) handy on the differing policies for acting/lacking in the reserves?



NavRes normally does not do acting lacking, instead they occasionally rely on 'while so employed' (WSE). I do not have the messages at home, but MARCORD 9-1 covers NavRes pers management. 

There is a clarifying NAVRESGEN clearly indicating anyone who had a WSE promotion will not have that time credited in the higher rank.


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## Celticgirl (4 Feb 2011)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> It is more likely that this person was deployed WSE - While So employed - vice "acting " for the tour.



Now that you mention it, yes, I believe it was WSE.  Good catch.



			
				kratz said:
			
		

> NavRes normally does not do acting lacking, instead they occasionally rely on 'while so employed' (WSE). I do not have the messages at home, but MARCORD 9-1 covers NavRes pers management.
> 
> There is a clarifying NAVRESGEN clearly indicating anyone who had a WSE promotion will not have that time credited in the higher rank.



Seen.  Thanks for the info, Kratz. 



			
				PuckChaser said:
			
		

> That's changed, I've seen a lot of acting lack ranks in the PRes now. Sgts finally getting their QL6a, MCpls without their QL5s.



This one has me scratching my head.  I can't get promoted to Cpl unless and until I graduate from my QL5, so how is someone promoted to the 'appointment' of MCpl without it?


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## navymich (4 Feb 2011)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> This one has me scratching my head.  I can't get promoted to Cpl unless and until I graduate from my QL5, so how is someone promoted to the 'appointment' of MCpl without it?



I was appointed to MCpl without my QL5.  Granted, it was acting/lacking.  Usually a member will have their QL5, get their MCpl and then go on JLC/PLQ.  In my case, I already had my JLC, got my MCpl and then did my QL5.


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## Brasidas (4 Feb 2011)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> Well, deployment would be different; Class C is treated as RegF in most respects, acting/lacking rank included.



He was a class A reservist at the time. He completed the second half of his QL3 after well over a year as a class A reservist acting/lacking corporal, deployed, and returned to the reserve. He's a class A reservist again, still a corporal, and still doesn't have his QL5.


----------



## Celticgirl (5 Feb 2011)

I'm starting to suspect that my coworkers were not told the whole truth.  Hmmm...


----------



## Franko (5 Feb 2011)

Then there is this little tidbit of info that is left out, from the perspective of the Armour trade -

When you do show up in your new Reg Force place of employment as a Cpl you are expected to pull your weight and conduct yourself as such, not coming in acting like a no hook Pte with only 2 years under your belt.

Remember, those two chevrons mean something to the people with only one (or none at all) chevron. They have been through the training system by Cpls of a high standard and will expect you to be the same. More often than not the Ptes will have more cumulative TI than you as well and loads of work experience. As an example, I have 3 Tprs currently outperforming the CT Cpls.

Failure to perform adequately not only will you be sorted out by your superiors but also earning respect of your peers and subordinates will be an uphill battle. 

I've had a few CTs come in to my office for Tp interviews and state that they'd rather have gone through St Jean and done all their courses over again. 

Regards


----------



## Celticgirl (5 Feb 2011)

Der Panzerkommandant,

There are two things that I hope will help me with the CT process: (1) I have had all RegF trg (Air Reserve), (2) I have worked in a severely understaffed OR for the past 10 mos and had to learn and do things that a Pte doesn't normally learn/do in the year following QL3 trg. 

On the other hand, I see what you are saying, and it does worry me.  I've expressed these concerns to my CC but she believes I have enough experience to be able to keep up and she says I am a very fast learner (let's hope so) and a hard worker.  I know I'll be at a disadvantage, though, and will have to prove myself more at my new unit than Cpls with far more TI and experience.  It's going to be 'sink or swim' for sure, and to be perfectly honest, I am nervous as heck.  :-\


----------



## Franko (5 Feb 2011)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> Der Panzerkommandant,
> 
> There are two things that I hope will help me with the CT process: (1) I have had all RegF trg (Air Reserve), (2) I have worked in a severely understaffed OR for the past 10 mos and had to learn and do things that a Pte doesn't normally learn/do in the year following QL3 trg.
> 
> On the other hand, I see what you are saying, and it does worry me.  I've expressed these concerns to my CC but she believes I have enough experience to be able to keep up and she says I am a very fast learner (let's hope so) and a hard worker.  I know I'll be at a disadvantage, though, and will have to prove myself more at my new unit than Cpls with far more TI and experience.  It's going to be 'sink or swim' for sure, and to be perfectly honest, I am nervous as heck.  :-\



If your CC at 403 thinks you're GTG, then more than likely you are. 

Regards


----------



## Celticgirl (5 Feb 2011)

Der Panzerkommandant.... said:
			
		

> If your CC at 403 thinks you're GTG, then more than likely you are.
> 
> Regards



Thank you.   I hope you are right.


----------



## eliminator (12 Feb 2011)

Sorry, this is going to be long winded. Basically I don't agree with the date the Career Manager is going to put on my promotion message following my Admin Review. it appears that he's applying the TCAT policy not the PCAT/AR policy. I'm looking for some opinions. 

I found out a couple of days ago through my Career Manager (CM) that a final decision regarding my medical administration review (AR)  has been reached.  They decided that I shall be "retained without restrictions." This implies that I do not breach universality of service and subsequently meet all the prerequisites for promotion to the rank of Lieutenant. (finally after 2 years of TCATs)

The CM indicated that a new promotion message will have to be cut since my original promotion message to the rank of Lt. dated May 2010, (effective Aug 2008) was deferred due to a Medical Administrative Review. According the CM, this previous promotion message is no longer valid since according to (I assume) DGMC Memorandum dated 21 Jun 06: BACKDATING OF PROMOTIONS: Section 7 

_7. Promotions delayed by temporary medical limitations. When the 
promotion of an officer on NCM is deferred as a result of a temporary 
medical restriction, it may be backdated to the original date of the 
promotion or up to one year - whichever is less - once the temporary 
medical restriction is lifted. _


From my brief conversation with the CM on the phone regarding the backdating of my promotion, he has indicated that I will be promoted 
to Lt. effective June 2009, which was calculated as one year prior to the commencement of my PCAT/AR process. (not sure what reference this 
comes from) I believe that the CM is applying the incorrect policy for my situation. 

Given that my file went forward in June 2010 for a Permanent Medical Category (PCAT) and a subsequent Administrative Review (AR), I believe 
that the policy stated in the lesser know document: EMPLOYMENT LIMITATIONS AND PROMOTIONS: DGMC Memorandum dated 24 July 06: Section 
7.a, b., more accurately reflects my situation, as it is NOT a Temporary Medical Limitation: 

_Permanent Employment Limitations: When a member is selected for 
promotion and has been awarded permanent employment limitations: 

a. the promotion is to be deferred in the instances where the 
career/admin review has yet to reach a final determination. Once the 
approving authority has made a decision, the promotion is to be 
reconsidered in light of the decision rendered; 

b. in instances where a career/admin review has be completed, the 
promotion is to be actioned in accordance with the results of the 
career/admin review. _


In summary, I believe that the policy that the CM is implementing regarding my promotion is incorrect, as it applies to temporary 
medical limitations (TCAT) and not those of the PCAT/AR process which I incurred. By enacting the temporary medical restrictions policy, I will be disadvantaged by approximately ten months of seniority in rank and will have to serve time in the rank of Lt. before promotion to the rank of Capt. (which I'm already in the position of since May of last year)

By nature of the PCAT/AR process, several months, if not a year, is required to complete the entire process. The time frame of "one year 
or less" used in the backdating of promotion for temporary medical restrictions is not appropriate in the case of members incurring the 
PCAT process as it is beyond their control how long the process takes. Clearly, in my opinion, the policy designed to protect me, the member, 
is not being implemented to their fullest regarding the backdating of my promotion.

Thoughts? Am I out to lunch on interpreting the policy?


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## CountDC (16 Feb 2011)

From what you give here at the moment the CM appears correct and to your benefit as you indicate you were on TCAT for 2 years and then PCAT in Jun 2010.  The one you are using would have you promoted a year later - Jun 2010.  It would apply if you became listed for promotion while on pcat and it was deferred due to pcat requiring the c/a review.  Your promotion was delayed due to your tcats which enables the CM to backdate it the extra year vice instead of the start of your pcat.


----------



## agc (21 Feb 2011)

Sorry to bring this back.  I missed a few posts on this thread.



			
				PuckChaser said:
			
		

> That's changed, I've seen a lot of acting lack ranks in the PRes now. Sgts finally getting their QL6a, MCpls without their QL5s.



Right, this is basically what I said, just in a different way.  Managed to get into the CFAO this morning (it's 49-5 for Reserves if anyone needs it, but not avail on the internet at the moment).  Para 8 states that  a leadership qualification cannot be waived in respect of promoting a member to the next rank.  So the situations you describe are legit, but a Cpl seeking promotion to MCpl cannot be lacking the PLQ for example.



			
				Celticgirl said:
			
		

> This one has me scratching my head.  I can't get promoted to Cpl unless and until I graduate from my QL5, so how is someone promoted to the 'appointment' of MCpl without it?



P Res promotion policy is different from Reg F.  The same CFAO as above refers (vice 49-4 for Reg F).  See Annex A Appendix 1.  Your QL3 (aka QL1) is the required occupational qual.



			
				Celticgirl said:
			
		

> They *cannot* take an uncontrolled rank away, 2 years, 4 years, doesn't matter.  It used to be that they would revert you to Pte if you didn't have the equivalent of 4 yrs in + promotion to Cpl upon transferring to the RegF, but that has changed in the past couple of years.



If you see:



			
				JMesh said:
			
		

> For information on rank protection, you'd want to refer to CF Mil Pers Instr 03/08, para 4.7. Available on page 9 of this document: http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/pd/pi-ip/doc/03-08-eng.pdf



They can protect an uncontrolled rank, but only if certain criteria are met.


----------



## JMesh (21 Feb 2011)

agc said:
			
		

> P Res promotion policy is different from Reg F.  The same CFAO as above refers (vice 49-4 for Reg F).  See Annex A Appendix 1.  Your QL3 (aka QL1) is the required occupational qual.



Actually, it looks like that may have changed. DAOD 5031-8 notes the same QLs for both RegF and PRes, though it also notes that the course itself may be different, and when it is, shall be named as such (PRes QL3, PRes QL5, etc.)


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## agc (21 Feb 2011)

Good eye.  However, this reference describes the framework for Professional Development.  The CFAO is the actual career policy that governs promotion authorities.


----------



## clericalchronicals (27 Feb 2011)

agc said:
			
		

> If you see:
> 
> They can protect an uncontrolled rank, but only if certain criteria are met.



Actually, take that reference one step further, to Para 4.3, specifically where they speak of the "RPE" or review of previous experience.  Mark my words, just because you are a Cpl in the reserves does not by any means make you eligible to retain that rank in the RegF.  I've processed enough of these files to be able to say that.  Cheers.


----------



## Bonko (14 May 2011)

I've been reg force for just over a year and my clerk and and sergeant major have been a bit bewildered by my promotion paperwork. I came over as Pte (T) as a skilled CT during that arty signing bonus time and was allowed to keep my "hook" as I came over to the regs as skilled. However on my EPZ it says Sept 2013 is when I can get my Bdr (Cpl) at the earliest however the thing that confuses my clerk is that I was granted Pte (T) should I not be able to get advanced promoted within a year of coming over? If any light could be shed on this situation it would be great. 

Ubique


----------



## Biohazardxj (14 May 2011)

What did your ETP instructions say for Rank, TCP, and IC?


----------



## Bonko (14 May 2011)

Pte (T) for rank, 204 days TCP and IC. If I read all the info right on my ETP message.


----------



## PuckChaser (14 May 2011)

You need 3 years qualified service to be a Cpl in the RegF. If they gave you 204 days credit, you would need 2 years, 161 days from your TOS date to be eligible for accelerated promotion.

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/cfa-oaf/049-04-eng.asp Annex A, table 1.


----------



## Bonko (14 May 2011)

Oh I know that,  the most confusing part that boggles the clerk and myself is that on all of my official paperwork it notes Pte (T) which is wrong then because in the regs don't you need 30 months to be Pte (T)? Once you get Pte (T) you can technically be promoted to Cpl within 6 months upon receiving your "hook" so long as you don't screw up. It's just a really confusing situation in general haha.


----------



## PuckChaser (14 May 2011)

Pte(T) is an uncontrolled rank and you were rank protected to that rank. No time requirement for uncontrolled ranks.

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/pd/pi-ip/doc/03-08-eng.pdf Para 4.7


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## Bonko (14 May 2011)

Excellent. Thank you very much for that clarification.


----------



## PuckChaser (14 May 2011)

No problem. Took me a lot of research to figure the system out when I was preparing for a CT.


----------



## John Mayor (22 Jun 2011)

I know what you’re going to say about being promoted while on category… NO…but, I am trying to find a loop hole. As anyone who has had a long lasting medical condition knows it is very mentally draining and hard on the member and their family. I have been dealing with a medical condition for the last 6 years that has finally resulted in my release/accommodation. During the long ordeal I have maintained my physical fitness, professionalism, work ethic and overall pride of being a serving member. I have almost 20 years of service between the Res and Reg Force, serving in two trades. In my present trade I have ranked in the top three for the last three years. I have already completed my JLC in my prior trade and I was a MCpl in my first trade. Three years ago I completed the full screening for promotion and it went as high as the CO and then he deferred it…I have been acting and representing the CF as a leader and I have not stopped serving full time. I may have more doctor appointments than the average Joe but I do not have any limitations except I am non deployable.  I know that I am probably barking up the wrong tree, but I am hoping that in our community there is someone who is willing to stand up and help me with this. All of my supervisors say that it is a injustice but they are willing to accept the fact that I am not promotable and leave it at that. If anyone has cases or any information that can assist me I would appreciate it. I have 15 days to present information or documentation to support my promotion.

The kicker is that with my category it states I still have to do a PT test. Kicking me out, not promoting me and I still have to do the Expres test, Wow. Please do not think that any of the above deters me in anyway, I will serve with pride and I will continue to support my brothers and sisters in uniform.


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## George Wallace (22 Jun 2011)

I know that this is not much help (perhaps I am wrong), but if you are a Cpl you are not talking about a promotion but an appointment to MCpl.  In a way, that is a technicality.


----------



## krustyrl (22 Jun 2011)

I also know of someone in pretty much the same situation as you.  On a PCat, on a Retention, NOT  promotable, no chance for career courses and being released medically.  WTF purpose does doing a PT test serve this member.?  
If he were to fail a certain portion of it, he goes on C+P  or whatever.??  I agreed with him/her and a few SrNCO's during an informal discussion that this does not prove anything, and puts undo stress/anxiety on the member when he/she probably feels insignificant as it is during his retention.  

Insert a little coin here...    :2c:


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## PMedMoe (22 Jun 2011)

Are you in a medical trade or are you asking this here because it's a medical question (which IMHO, it isn't).  I suggest this be moved to Military Administration.


----------



## George Wallace (22 Jun 2011)

krustyrl said:
			
		

> .........  WTF purpose does doing a PT test serve this member.?



Not all people on TCAT or PCAT are physically unable to do the PT Test.  They may have other health related problems.


----------



## PO2FinClk (22 Jun 2011)

Yes I have seen personnel on Retention who got promoted, bottom line is you have to do your homework and fully substantiate your eligibility and ability to perform duties.

Here are some key references and points to get you started:


> DAOD 5032-1
> Any period of retention subject to employment limitations is a transitional period of service leading to release from the Reg F or P Res. During this period the CF member is expected to perform all military duties except those related to the CF member’s employment limitations. During the period of retention, a CF member:
> ...
> is only eligible for promotion if he or she meets the applicable promotion criteria.



CFP 154 Annex D - MOC Task Statements 
CFP 154 Annex E - Minimum Medical Standards for Officers/Non-Commissioned
DIN: http://hr.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/health-sante/pd/cfp-pfc-154/default-eng.asp

You must dig and research the CFP 154 to establish that despite not meeting UoS you nonetheless remain capable of performing all of your military duties. Annex D is very detailed into the expectations by Rank & MOSID.

This is the most which you can be given as anything more must be completed by yourself to establish how your situation meets all of the requirements. As I said earlier, its up to you to now do your homework.


----------



## John Mayor (23 Jun 2011)

FinClk said:
			
		

> Yes I have seen personnel on Retention who got promoted, bottom line is you have to do your homework and fully substantiate your eligibility and ability to perform duties.
> 
> Here are some key references and points to get you started:
> CFP 154 Annex D - MOC Task Statements
> ...



Thanks much. I know I have to do my home work but the above will help. I am not much of an admin or med expert and I just wanted to see if any one was in the same boat.. Thanks


----------



## Ice97 (26 Jun 2011)

What I don't understand is why people think that as soon as they have 30 months in they'll get their hook.  The hook is to symbolize that you have some time in the Military and that you have completed your initial trades training.  I don't really see that changing.  And they're right about completing your QL5 to become a "Cpl"...I got promoted to A/L Cpl in July 2009 (Thought it was kinda stupid when my bio was read and they said that I am highly recommended for my promotion to A/L Cpl)....and I became a Cpl when I completed my QL5 in Dec 2010...you don't get another parade or anything....you just see it on you MPRR.  It's the same deal as people that get their MCpl's and Sgt's before completing their PLQ or QL6.  On the plus side....you're still eligible for the next rank within 2-3 years (depending on what your next rank is) from the day that you get promoted...not from the date you go from A/L to a fully-fledged Cpl or MCpl....or whatever rank you are


----------



## Hurricane (13 Jul 2011)

Just going to add my 2 cents here. Your first hook as meaningless as it in fact is, is something untrained Pte's and OS's look forward to. Lets face it, everyone in the cf was at that level at one time or another looking for that recognition, or something that makes them different or feel like theyre progressing. That being said, I am a simple one hooker, but being at my current unit for the last 3 years I have learned one thing. That it simply depends on your CoC and how much they pay attention to the Regs. I have seen people complete their QL3 and get promoted to Cpl on their grad parade due to time in, as well, I have seen LS remusters get DEMOTED to PteT and LOSE PAY and be told that once they complete their QL5 their rank will be reinstated with pay. I have seen one PteB get PteT just because he has 30 months in, and one have to wait 6 months longer because his QL4 wasnt finished, or he hasnt completed the BFT this fiscal year. Basically, If the OC signs off on your hook youll get it, someone just has to forward the paperwork to him (IE Chief Clerk). But your first step in this matter is to bring it up to your admin stick to forward up the CoC. Dont just expect that someone is watching your file to see when youre due. 

If there is one thing I have learned in my career so far, you need to stay on top of ALL of your Admin by yourself. The RMS trade has its fair share of gluebags as well. I could go on about that in an entire new thread but I will leave it at that. (PS that was not intended as an insult to the RMS trase as I know some excellent clerks, only to the gluebags.)


----------



## Occam (13 Jul 2011)

Hurricane said:
			
		

> I have seen LS remusters get DEMOTED to PteT and LOSE PAY and be told that once they complete their QL5 their rank will be reinstated with pay.



I find this very, very hard to believe.


----------



## Hurricane (13 Jul 2011)

As do I, however He was a trained LS Posted to ship, deployed to the persian gulf. Remustered to MSE, on his component xfer demoted to PteT and P3 Pay Incentive. Has 12 Years service, was awarded his CD about 4 months ago. BN Chief Clerk has told him that he cannot get his Cpls back until he has his ql5. I didnt believe it either, until he was awarded his CD as a Pte. Wether you believe it or not is irrevelant really not to be a dick, it is simply to prove that there is NO precident for ANYTHING in the CF. If someone with enough bars on their slip on signs off on something, it happens. We've also got a guy who has spent 6 years as an untrained Pte because he has diabetes, can still do his job, has more experience than the chick who got promoted to cpl off of her 3's for having time in on MATA/PATA leave, but because he cannot be deployed, he cant be promoted but thats a whole nother can of worms.


----------



## Ludoc (13 Jul 2011)

Hurricane said:
			
		

> As do I, however He was a trained LS Posted to ship, deployed to the persian gulf. Remustered to MSE, on his component xfer demoted to PteT and P3 Pay Incentive. Has 12 Years service, was awarded his CD about 4 months ago. BN Chief Clerk has told him that he cannot get his Cpls back until he has his ql5. I didnt believe it either, until he was awarded his CD as a Pte. Wether you believe it or not is irrevelant really not to be a dick, it is simply to prove that there is NO precident for ANYTHING in the CF. If someone with enough bars on their slip on signs off on something, it happens. We've also got a guy who has spent 6 years as an untrained Pte because he has diabetes, can still do his job, has more experience than the chick who got promoted to cpl off of her 3's for having time in on MATA/PATA leave, but because he cannot be deployed, he cant be promoted but thats a whole nother can of worms.



Where are you posted? I just want to know so I can avoid it because it sounds like you have a shitty chain of command. 

Or maybe there are things going on with those two you don't know about.


----------



## Occam (13 Jul 2011)

Hurricane said:
			
		

> As do I, however He was a trained LS Posted to ship, deployed to the persian gulf. Remustered to MSE, on his component xfer demoted to PteT and P3 Pay Incentive. Has 12 Years service, was awarded his CD about 4 months ago. BN Chief Clerk has told him that he cannot get his Cpls back until he has his ql5. I didnt believe it either, until he was awarded his CD as a Pte. Wether you believe it or not is irrevelant really not to be a dick, it is simply to prove that there is NO precident for ANYTHING in the CF. If someone with enough bars on their slip on signs off on something, it happens. We've also got a guy who has spent 6 years as an untrained Pte because he has diabetes, can still do his job, has more experience than the chick who got promoted to cpl off of her 3's for having time in on MATA/PATA leave, but because he cannot be deployed, he cant be promoted but thats a whole nother can of worms.



Good lord, where do I start...

1.  If he was a LS (substantive or otherwise), then he would retain the rank of LS/Cpl on remuster.  If he didn't, someone screwed up on his OT message, and nobody bothered to question the right people on it.  I've seen many, many OTs in my service and not one of them was ever reverted in rank to lower than LS/Cpl - including my own. 
2.  If he remustered from <any Naval trade> to MSE Op, that's not a "component transfer", that's an element transfer.  A component transfer is from Reserves to Regular, or vice versa.
3.  Whether he was awarded his CD as a Pte or a Cpl is irrelevant, the CD isn't tied to rank.
4.  That "chick" is a rank higher than you, and according to regulations, earned it - whether you agree with MATA/PATA leave counting towards promotion or not.  The six-year Pte with diabetes isn't deployable, and therefore isn't employable, and is therefore unpromotable.  It sucks, but people who don't meet the medical test for fitness for whatever reason don't get promoted.

I hope you don't project this attitude in the work environment (particularly towards senior "chicks"), because I foresee a correction in your near future.


----------



## aesop081 (13 Jul 2011)

Hurricane said:
			
		

> If someone with enough bars on their slip on signs off on something, it happens.



That might be the perspective that you have, as a Private in 2 Svc Bn, but i assure you that you are far from correct.





> but because he cannot be deployed, he cant be promoted but that's a whole nother can of worms.



It is not a "can of worms", it is the reality of serving in the CF. You are not medically fit, you don't get promoted.


----------



## Hurricane (13 Jul 2011)

My apologies if my terminology was off, and yes everyone knows your CD is time awarded, not rank. However, very odd that someone with a CD is still a Pte, NO? And the "chick" promoted on MATA/PATA was simply an example of someone getting promoted due to TI, not on Trade Requirements. So if this person is QL3 qualified and can be a Cpl, Why can Person B who was already a LS not be a Cpl with the same trade skills?   It was meerely an example of how rules and regs mean nothing to the power of Pen.


----------



## dapaterson (13 Jul 2011)

Key term i nthis story is "component transfer" together with "occupational transfer".  Only rank protection on a CT is Cpl/Capt for individuals qualified in their trade.  This individual was not qualified in their trade when they CT'd, so they dropped back to Pte.

Not "the stroke of a pen", but rather "not qualified on joining the Reg F, and treated in accordance with regulations".


----------



## Occam (14 Jul 2011)

Hurricane said:
			
		

> My apologies if my terminology was off, and yes everyone knows your CD is time awarded, not rank. However, very odd that someone with a CD is still a Pte, NO? And the "chick" promoted on MATA/PATA was simply an example of someone getting promoted due to TI, not on Trade Requirements. So if this person is QL3 qualified and can be a Cpl, Why can Person B who was already a LS not be a Cpl with the same trade skills?   It was meerely an example of how rules and regs mean nothing to the power of Pen.



Terminology is important because the wrong terminology will confuse the message you're trying to convey.  The person promoted to Cpl off of her QL3 course got promoted within the regulations - it's called Acting Lacking.  You can be missing one prerequisite for promotion and still be promoted.  It happens quite frequently, for a variety of reasons.

In the example you gave earlier, was the LS in the Navy Reg F or Reserve?  If they were Reg F, then their rank is protected on OT.  If they did a component transfer from Res F to Reg F while doing an OT, then the rank of LS/Cpl is not protected - as dapaterson mentioned.

dapaterson, I believe he misused the term "component transfer".


----------



## Hurricane (14 Jul 2011)

Yes my appologies, he was reg f navy, and element/occupation xfer'd to reg f army.


----------



## Pusser (14 Jul 2011)

Hurricane said:
			
		

> Yes my appologies, he was *reg f* navy, and element/occupation xfer'd to *reg f* army.



If this is correct, then something seems to have gone horribly wrong.  In my experience, I have never seen an occupation transfer within the same component (which is what has been described here) result in a reduction below LS/Cpl.


----------



## CountDC (14 Jul 2011)

and along with something going horribly wrong the member should submit a letter of enquiry and if not satisfied with the results a ROG.  Upon OT Cpls are supposed to retain their rank while MCpl's and Sgt's face the reduction to Cpl although they may retain their pay scale under vested rights in some cases.

With the info provided here this sounds like an admin error that should have been picked up and fixed by COC and C Clk.

Something is not ringing here.


----------



## cainegchapman (23 Aug 2011)

I know that one's promotion is totally based on them; their skills, their work ethic, and their potential. But what are the _approximate_ timelines for promotion per rank?


----------



## PPCLI Guy (23 Aug 2011)

Reg? Reserve? Officer? NCM?


----------



## cainegchapman (23 Aug 2011)

I plan to attend RMC, so officer.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (23 Aug 2011)

Two minutes on Google:

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/cfa-oaf/011-06-eng.asp

PROMOTION TO CAPTAIN, MAJOR, LIEUTENANT-COLONEL AND COLONEL

20. Except as provided in paragraph 21, promotion to the ranks of captain, major, lieutenant-colonel and colonel is competitive and is based on merit and service requirements within each MOC. Officers will be selected for such promotions from among those:

    who have entered the promotion zone for promotion to the next rank on attaining the required number of years of seniority in their current rank as follows -
        as a lieutenant - two years, except that for those commissioned as a lieutenant under the UTPM or CFRP the period is three years,
        as a captain - four years,
        as a major - four years, or
        as a lieutenant-colonel - three years;
    who have been recommended for accelerated promotion in accordance with paragraphs 18 to 21 of the order; and
    who have met the time in rank requirements as adjusted by NDHQ/DPCAO for MOC transfer, MOC training failure, transfer from the reserves and re-enrolment.


----------



## Ralph (29 Aug 2011)

Add to the above the annual number of positions open for the career mgr to fill and the trade's historical outlook on speed of promotion.


----------



## Zoomie (14 Sep 2011)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> and is based on merit and service requirements within each MOC.


It also depends on speaking french, completing your PD and being able to run Exempt on your PT test.  Unlike the PRes, you also compete against every other equally ranked officer in your MOSID - so getting someone on your side when PER season comes around makes a big difference.  

All this goes out the window if someone has identified you for "deep select".


----------



## SevenSixTwo (16 Sep 2011)

I am just curious if there is a CF standard within the PRes for promotion policy. Someone asked me this recently as their course mates got off of DP1 ACISS and got promoted to Cpl yet a certain unit which, the person hails from has Privates attending DP2 ACISS and PLQ Mod 1-5 despite members having years in ranging from 2 to 5 years.

Then at other units (namely infantry units) Cpl's exist who only have SQ.


----------



## Biohazardxj (16 Sep 2011)

Two years in plus DP1.


----------



## pfinlayson (16 Sep 2011)

This has some info, too:

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/cfa-oaf/049-05-eng.asp


----------



## SevenSixTwo (17 Sep 2011)

The CFAO is extremely contradictory to the individuals unit.

They have privates with 5 years in who are MOC Qualified.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (17 Sep 2011)

SevenSixTwo said:
			
		

> The CFAO is extremely contradictory to the individuals unit.
> 
> They have privates with 5 years in who are MOC Qualified.



Know your soldiers and promote their welfare? :


----------



## SevenSixTwo (17 Sep 2011)

Not mine. 

CFAO 49-5 seems too outdated to try and bring against their CoC.

Especially since it says 2 years Private with QL1.


----------



## brihard (17 Sep 2011)

"Then at other units (namely infantry units) Cpl's exist who only have SQ."

Unless they transferred from another trade that ought never be the case.Without the DP1 infantry course achieved that member cannot qualify for promotion to Cpl within the infantry trade. I've seen remusters from other trades attend DP1 Infantry as a Cpl, but that should be it. No amount of Call of Duty experience entitles one to be considered for 'skilled entry' into the Infantry.  ;D


----------



## HollywoodCowboy (18 Sep 2011)

If your power point skills are weak , then your stuck at rank.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (19 Sep 2011)

HollywoodCowboy said:
			
		

> If your power point skills are weak , then your stuck at rank.



You may also be stuck at rank if you are unable to distinguish between your and you're....


----------



## Franko (19 Sep 2011)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> You may also be stuck at rank if you are unable to distinguish between your and you're....



 :rofl:

That just made my day!

Regards


----------



## HollywoodCowboy (20 Sep 2011)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> You may also be stuck at rank if you are unable to distinguish between your and you're....



 :facepalm:

Thanks,  your, you're defiantly spot on about that, there, they're, their was a time when I could use proper grammar, which, witch at the moment it is sometimes right, write, rite most of the time.

Only a Captain IPC lvl 42 would have spotted that gross grammar error, you now can move up the chain young man. 
 :blotto:


----------



## frank1515 (20 Sep 2011)

HollywoodCowboy said:
			
		

> :facepalm:
> 
> Thanks,  your, you're defiantly spot on about that, there, they're, their was a time when I could use proper grammar, which, witch at the moment it is sometimes right, write, rite most of the time.
> 
> ...



Better run quick! Not only do I hear the grammar police coming, I also foresee the wrath of a few mods striking down at you.  I suggest you mind *your* grammar before *you're* put on the warning ladder by the mods you probably p***ed off with *your* last post.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (20 Sep 2011)

HollywoodCowboy said:
			
		

> :facepalm:
> 
> Thanks,  your, you're defiantly spot on about that, there, they're, their was a time when I could use proper grammar, which, witch at the moment it is sometimes right, write, rite most of the time.



Excellent response!



> Only a Captain IPC lvl 42 would have spotted that gross grammar error, you now can move up the chain young man.
> :blotto:



At last I am free to fulfill my potential... 8)


----------



## HollywoodCowboy (20 Sep 2011)

PPCLI Guy


----------



## HollywoodCowboy (20 Sep 2011)

frank1515 said:
			
		

> Better run quick! Not only do I hear the grammar police coming, I also foresee the wrath of a few mods striking down at you.  I suggest you mind *your* grammar before *you're* put on the warning ladder by the mods you probably p***ed off with *your* last post.



Really, my last post, check your source on that one.


----------



## dapaterson (20 Sep 2011)

HollywoodCowboy said:
			
		

> Only a Captain IPC lvl 42 would have spotted that gross grammar error, you now can move up the chain young man.
> :blotto:




Well, a Capt 42 would have the answer to the ultimate question about Life, The Universe and Everything.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (20 Sep 2011)

frank1515 said:
			
		

> Better run quick! Not only do I hear the grammar police coming, I also foresee the wrath of a few mods striking down at you.  I suggest you mind *your* grammar before *you're* put on the warning ladder by the mods you probably p***ed off with *your* last post.



Why?

We'd probably be more pissed off at someone's attempt to create controversy by trolling the thread 

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## frank1515 (20 Sep 2011)

Didn't read the sarcasm in his post!  :'( Chastise me if you must!


----------



## CountDC (20 Sep 2011)

SevenSixTwo said:
			
		

> Not mine.
> 
> CFAO 49-5 seems too outdated to try and bring against their CoC.
> 
> Especially since it says 2 years Private with QL1.



Call it what you will it still amounts to the same - 2 years plus the trade course - QL1, BTT, TQ3.

Of course it still requires the paperwork done up and signed by the CO.  Perhaps there is something missing from the picture that they are still pte after 5?


----------



## dapaterson (20 Sep 2011)

Most Land Force Areas have their own directives, derived from the CFAO and LFCO 29-12, which provide more info.

(And we won't ask "Why is 29-12 still off the DWAN, pending re-write, for the better part of a decade?")


----------



## PPCLI Guy (20 Sep 2011)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Well, a Capt 42 would have the answer to the ultimate question about Life, The Universe and Everything.



I see what you did there....


----------



## 2 Cdo (20 Sep 2011)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> I see what you did there....



A Doug Adams reference!  8)


----------



## FlyingDutchman (21 Sep 2011)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> It also depends on speaking french, completing your PD and being able to run Exempt on your PT test.  Unlike the PRes, you also compete against every other equally ranked officer in your MOSID - so getting someone on your side when PER season comes around makes a big difference.
> 
> All this goes out the window if someone has identified you for "deep select".


I am googling that as we speak, but I'm not getting helpful answers and now I'm curious.  "Deep select"?


----------



## aesop081 (21 Sep 2011)

Selected very early on for fast track through the ranks...... Often for very abstract reasons


----------



## GAP (21 Sep 2011)

For some the potential is recognized......for others it's well hidden....


----------



## aesop081 (21 Sep 2011)

GAP said:
			
		

> For some the potential is recognized......for others it's well hidden....



Indeed. It does work both ways.


----------



## nickanick (1 Oct 2011)

Will previous academic standards (E.G. undergraduate degrees ) increase chances of promotions in NCM trades?


----------



## ModlrMike (1 Oct 2011)

nickanick said:
			
		

> Will previous academic standards (E.G. undergraduate degrees ) increase chances of promotions in NCM trades?



Not always. If you don't improve your academic standing year over year, you won't get additional points for potential at the merit board.


----------



## nickanick (1 Oct 2011)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Not always. If you don't improve your academic standing year over year, you won't get additional points for potential at the merit board.



But how can you improve your academic standing when you are already serving CF?
Will there be exams to take to increase your "grades", to get additional points?


----------



## aesop081 (1 Oct 2011)

nickanick said:
			
		

> But how can you improve your academic standing when you are already serving CF?



Continuing education. Lots of CF folks go to school part-time outside of working hours. For example, i did my first university course by distance learning while i was deployed in Kosovo.


----------



## Franko (1 Oct 2011)

nickanick said:
			
		

> Will previous academic standards (E.G. undergraduate degrees ) increase chances of promotions in NCM trades?



You are merited on the basis of Performance and Potential and they go pretty much hand in hand.

If your performance is junk...you'll be waiting for a very long time for a promotion, regardless of NCO or Officer.

If you are in the top 10 for your trade and looking for someone to promote, something like that would be reflected in your file and may get you on top of the heap, but then again so does being bilingual, volunteering in the community, doing OPMEs etc.

Mind you I've sat on a few merit boards and there are a few troops that have a BA or higher and that *never* came up in any conversation at all, at least at the unit level.

Regards


----------



## nickanick (11 Oct 2011)

Would an NCM member have better chance of promotion, if he/she has a degree before enrollment?


----------



## PMedMoe (11 Oct 2011)

No.

Edit to add:  You already asked this question.



			
				nickanick said:
			
		

> Will previous academic standards (E.G. undergraduate degrees ) increase chances of promotions in NCM trades?



Didn't like the answer or just forgot?


----------



## nickanick (11 Oct 2011)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> No.
> 
> Edit to add:  You already asked this question.
> 
> Didn't like the answer or just forgot?



My sincere apologies, I forgot.


----------



## PMedMoe (11 Oct 2011)

nickanick said:
			
		

> My sincere apologies, I forgot.



You know, if you look at your profile, you can see your past posts........


----------



## Drag (12 Oct 2011)

Having sat on a couple of NCM PER boards, points are given for level education.  Having a degree will carry more points then not having one.


----------



## PMedMoe (12 Oct 2011)

D3 said:
			
		

> Having sat on a couple of NCM PER boards, points are given for level education.  Having a degree will carry more points then not having one.



That may be true, but usually for something the member has done _in that PER year_.  Check the OP's previous posts, he seems to be looking for a fast-track to the most money.

If Cpl Bloggins can't do his/her job, it matters not (to me, anyway) what level of education they had _prior_ to joining.


----------



## Franko (12 Oct 2011)

D3 said:
			
		

> Having sat on a couple of NCM PER boards, points are given for level education.  Having a degree will carry more points then not having one.



Only if the member has done it in the past year while serving. Not before.

Regards


----------



## ModlrMike (12 Oct 2011)

Nerf herder said:
			
		

> Only if the member has done it in the past year while serving. Not before.
> 
> Regards



True, but it can also have a lasting effect. One can continue to accrue potential points in future years from having attained the higher education.


----------



## Drag (12 Oct 2011)

The mbr gains points for courses done in that reporting year.  That is how we did the unit level boards, at the formation level we used the same criteria that the national promotion boards used as our guideline.  There we added the factors of second language proficiency, deployments in rank and education level as an additional way to judge the mbr's potential and as tie breakers.

At the national  boards do give additional points for education level.  That being said, it may be enough points to get you up higher on the merit list but not enough to make up for deficient performance.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (13 Oct 2011)

I too have *some* experience with Merit Boards at every possible level.  Points are granted every single year for education,  and 2 or 3 points can make a big difference.  It varies by rank (deliberately) but college generally gains you 2 points (out of 100 - not to be sniffed at) and a Bacc even more.  The confusion about in-year academic upgrades relates to (again, generally) a single point for having made the effort to upgrade - ie one Uni credit. Same/same for OPME's.  In the trade that I am most familiar with, 2 points for having completed 2 OPME's , and an additional point for doing one in year.


----------



## nickanick (13 Oct 2011)

Thank you for your replies. 
I really want to clarify my motives in asking so many questions about promotion.
It's not about the money, but rather, it's about the responsibility and status once you get promote.

I'm just searching a way to achieve the most out of my potential, experience and background, in CF.


----------



## ModlrMike (13 Oct 2011)

Eyes and ears open, mouth shut, and nose to the grindstone. There's the most important and effective route to promotion. 

The rest of the stuff adds, but not as much as the first bit.


----------



## aesop081 (13 Oct 2011)

nickanick said:
			
		

> but rather, it's about the responsibility and status once you get promote.



Careful what you wish for..............There are many days where i wish i was a Corporal again.

Funny thing about "status" is that in my mind, this is meaningless. Your "status" will only come from what type of leader you are and on wether or not you have the respect of both your superiors and your subordinates.

Also, as you get higher in rank, you risk getting yourself promoted out of a job you enjoy. I can certainly speak to that as this is what just happened to me. My previous supervisor's last words to me were " You did a great job here, too good in fact. You got promoted very fast and now you can't do this job anymore....."


----------



## PMedMoe (13 Oct 2011)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Also, as you get higher in rank, you risk getting yourself promoted out of a job you enjoy. I can certainly speak to that as this is what just happened to me. My previous supervisor's last words to me were " You did a great job here, too good in fact. You got promoted very fast and now you can't do this job anymore....."



Not to mention getting posted somewhere you don't really want to be, or lack of postions (due to rank) for that matter.


----------



## abruent85 (21 Nov 2011)

Hello,

I joined back in 2009 and was told if I went LCIS through the NCM-SEP program that upon completion of my 2 years at civi school that I'd be promoted to Corporal. 

So I joined and went LCIS through NCM-SEP and went to Algonquin College for the last two years. I graduated at the end of April and got posted to CFSCE where I asked about my promotion and no one had even heard of the NCM-SEP program. They were looking at me as if I had two heads. 

Anyone have any info that might help me out?

Thanks,


----------



## CountDC (24 Nov 2011)

if you have access and assuming they do http://borden.mil.ca/33/81.aspx.  Took me 3 seconds to find this link.  I hope you were not talking to clerks.


----------



## abruent85 (24 Nov 2011)

CountDC:

Unfortunately I've been dealing with clerks for the past year on this issue and they've have kept telling me that there's nothing on my file about a promotion. I'm not in my office right now, but I'll check out that link in the morning.


A little update for you. I found my joining instruction and went through the references, one being MARCORD 9-61. In this reference I found a career profile which shows I should of gotten my IPC 2 after my first year of school and then it shows that upon completion of my second year of school I would be A/Cpl being paid as Corporal Spec 1.


----------



## GeorgeD (24 Nov 2011)

I dont think you will get Cpec pay until after QL3. Im in the same program but for ATIS tech and I think we dont get spec pay until QL5. I dont know about A/Cpl though.


----------



## CountDC (29 Nov 2011)

I would agree with GD - don't see spec pay until QL5 and full Cpl.  Looking at the MARCORD (which you should be careful with as it has not been updated in a few years) it shows Spec pay with full Cpl at 48 months with completion of QL5.  You can get A/LS rank with Cpl pay according to the chart.  Suggest to your clerks that they contact DMTE for clarification if they need help.  Just keep in mind that there may have been changes since that MARCORD was last updated.  As I pointed out to others - MARCORDS are not an authority when it comes to pay, it is an attempt to expand and clarify the regulations and sometimes it fails - miserably.  

Good luck and let us know how it goes.  Sorry you didn't at least get a better answer out of the clerks there.


----------



## abruent85 (29 Nov 2011)

CountDC said:
			
		

> I would agree with GD - don't see spec pay until QL5 and full Cpl.  Looking at the MARCORD (which you should be careful with as it has not been updated in a few years) it shows Spec pay with full Cpl at 48 months with completion of QL5.  You can get A/LS rank with Cpl pay according to the chart.  Suggest to your clerks that they contact DMTE for clarification if they need help.  Just keep in mind that there may have been changes since that MARCORD was last updated.  As I pointed out to others - MARCORDS are not an authority when it comes to pay, it is an attempt to expand and clarify the regulations and sometimes it fails - miserably.
> 
> Good luck and let us know how it goes.  Sorry you didn't at least get a better answer out of the clerks there.



I originally was joining as Infantry and back in April 2009 I got a call from my recruiter saying that he looked at my aptitude test scores and was wondering if I would be interested in becoming a tech. He gave me a couple trade choices and told me after completing school I'd be A/Cpl making more than a Sgt in the infantry. Basically he gave me a breakdown of the info that is on the MARCORD. 

The copy I have found of MARCORD 9-61 is dated 26 Feb 2008. The only amendments I've found to 9-61 were done on 2005-09-06 which was before the copy I have. 

Why would my joining instructions have a reference to this MARCORD 9-61 if I'm not supposed to get this promotion to A/Cpl?

Today I spoke to a clerk who has my file now and I was told that they didn't know anything about the NCM SEP and they want me to contact the previous clerk because the clerk doesn't want to research the program and waste more of my time.


----------



## GeorgeD (29 Nov 2011)

The thing is, it all comes down to qualifications. If you have college diploma or if you are NCMSEP that excuses you from POET only, and it does not guarantee that you will get A/Cpl before you are qualified to be promoted to the rank. Again, it's only my understanding, but it means that after 4 years you will have necessary time in to be promoted but will not necessarily have qualification for promotion. Not everyone will get QL3 right after Graduation, and not everyone will get only 4 months OJT before QL5. Some people might have to sign another contract before they go to QL5. Also even if promoted to A/Cpl you will be Cpl(B) Thus getting Cpl pay, but not the spec pay. But I will again point out this is just my understanding.


----------



## Pusser (29 Nov 2011)

There is something a little strange here.  Why would a MARCORD discuss LCIS Tech training?  MARCORDS are Maritime Command Orders (i.e. Navy) and LCIS Tech is an Army occupation, over which the Navy has no control or concern.


----------



## Occam (29 Nov 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> There is something a little strange here.  Why would a MARCORD discuss LCIS Tech training?  MARCORDS are Maritime Command Orders (i.e. Navy) and LCIS Tech is an Army occupation, over which the Navy has no control or concern.



It's likely the MARCORD is a reference on the message, but it's likely a "canned" message used for all NCM-SEP candidates, regardless of service affiliation.  The MARCORD only applies to Naval candidates (who were formerly under METTP and NCSTTP - which got rolled into NCM-SEP when the program went CF-wide).


----------



## Pusser (29 Nov 2011)

Occam said:
			
		

> It's likely the MARCORD is a reference on the message, but it's likely a "canned" message used for all NCM-SEP candidates, regardless of service affiliation.  The MARCORD only applies to Naval candidates (who were formerly under METTP and NCSTTP - which got rolled into NCM-SEP when the program went CF-wide).



Understood, but if he's looking to the MARCORD as the authority for his situation, this could be part of the problem and the reason his clerks don't seem to know what's going on.  Folks don't speak "Navy" well outside of Halifax and Esquimalt.


----------



## GeorgeD (29 Nov 2011)

There is a book that has all the trades eligible for the program and all of the approved schools as well as a general outline of the first few years, but I don't think it is for anything other than information to potential recruits. And the fact is that it states LCIS Tech is promoted to A/Cpl on completion of QL4/OJT and gets spec pay after QL5. I just checked it and if anyone wants to see the booklet PM me your email and I will send it to you.


----------



## Occam (29 Nov 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Understood, but if he's looking to the MARCORD as the authority for his situation, this could be part of the problem and the reason his clerks don't seem to know what's going on.  Folks don't speak "Navy" well outside of Halifax and Esquimalt.



Agreed, there will be another reference which spells out the trade progression for NCM-SEP outside the Naval MOSIDs.


----------



## Occam (29 Nov 2011)

I just took a look at the document that GD was offering out - that is indeed the policy document which spells out trade progression for all of the NCM-SEP trades (otherwise known as "NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS – SUBSIDIZED EDUCATION PLANS OCCUPATIONS LIST").  

I wanted to get a peek at it as I had seen it before but don't have a copy at home.  Looks like LCIS doesn't get their A/L Cpl until at least the four year mark and QL4 status, while the Naval trades (and some others) get it immediately on successful completion of the second year of subsidized training.  No wonder the Sigs branch is having a hard time with recruiting...


----------



## abruent85 (30 Nov 2011)

Occam said:
			
		

> Agreed, there will be another reference which spells out the trade progression for NCM-SEP outside the Naval MOSIDs.




Here are the Refs from my joining instructions

A. A-PM-245 CHAP 11
B. CFAO 209-28
C. CBI 204.30
D. CMP INSTR 10/06 NCM-SEP - 11 JUL 06
E. CFAO 49-4
F. DAOD 5049-1
G. MARCORD 9-61
H. ADM (HR MIL) INSTR 05/05 ANNEX G APPENDIX 1
I. DCS 3 001 211350Z JUN 07

I've looked up every reference and the only one showing a Career Profile is the MARCORD 9-61. 

I've seen the NCM SEP Occupation List documents before but they weren't around when I joined, so the only reason why I think they made reference to the MARCORD was to show that my Career Profile should be the same as the NCSTTP.


----------



## Occam (30 Nov 2011)

I don't think that is a correct assumption.  There are quite a few trades who do not get promoted to A/L Cpl upon graduation from subsidized training.


----------



## GeorgeD (30 Nov 2011)

And joining instructions are not always error free.


----------



## rocksteady (21 Apr 2012)

Is it possible to be promoted without ever receiving an Immediate or Ready but you ranked well within the numbers for promotions to the next rank?

Also, if you are under the impression you are being promoted and you ask to stay at your current location and you are told you will probably be promoted and be staying, when can you expect to receive a promotion message by at the latest?  I'm guessing June or July?

Thanks.


----------



## ModlrMike (21 Apr 2012)

The four descriptors for promotion recommendation are "No, Developing, Ready, and Immediate". I think it would be difficult to score sufficiently high enough on a merit list having only received "Developing" PERs. That being said, anything is possible. Much depends on the size of the merit list and the number of forecast promotions. A merit board will generally consider files that equal three times the promotion forecast for the following year, plus all ties. It would be a very small trade that could not muster enough "Immediate or Ready" to account for the promotion forecast.

If you are to be promoted and stay at your unit, you could expect your promotion date to be 1 Jul, or close to it.


----------



## rocksteady (21 Apr 2012)

That is what I don't understand.  I was rated 58 and 77 are being forcasted for Promotion yet I have never received anything more than a developing yet I am being told I am "probably" being promoted.  One of the other guys I know was rated 64 (same trade) and received an Immediate or Ready (can't remember) and he is being promoted/posted.


----------



## Occam (21 Apr 2012)

Can you be promoted without receiving an Immediate recommendation? Yes.  Can you be promoted *without your last PER* being at least a Ready recommendation?  No, because your PER wouldn't be going in front of a selection board if you were not Immediate or Ready, therefore you would never get ranked.  You could get (hypothetically) a Ready, a Ready, an Immediate and, assuming you still didn't rank high enough to get promoted, a Developing because you screwed up big time somehow, and you would not even go to the board after the developing.

As to the other question, location really has nothing to do with it.  You have to be promoted into a position at your new rank level.  If there is no position at your current rank level at your current unit (and you're not being moved, of course), then you would not be promoted until Dec, which is called a deferred promotion.  Otherwise, if there is a position for you to go into, either at your current location or a new one you're being posted into, you're normally promoted effective a couple of weeks prior to the posting/position change.



			
				rocksteady said:
			
		

> That is what I don't understand.  I was rated 58 and 77 are being forcasted for Promotion yet I have never received anything more than a developing yet I am being told I am "probably" being promoted.  One of the other guys I know was rated 64 (same trade) and received an Immediate or Ready (can't remember) and he is being promoted/posted.



That sounds odd.  I didn't think you went to the selection board if you were developing.


----------



## armyvern (21 Apr 2012)

Occam said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> That sounds odd.  I didn't think you went to the selection board if you were developing.



Big year for (forecasted) retirements perhaps.

If his EMAA is showing an ML ranking, his PER must have been to boards; either that or someone typo'd someone else's rankings into his EMAA.


----------



## aesop081 (21 Apr 2012)

rocksteady said:
			
		

> Is it possible to be promoted without ever receiving an Immediate or Ready but you ranked well within the numbers for promotions to the next rank?



Yes, it is possible. Many factors have to come into play but, it does happen.


----------



## Occam (21 Apr 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Big year for (forecasted) retirements perhaps.
> 
> If his EMAA is showing an ML ranking, his PER must have been to boards; either that or someone typo'd someone else's rankings into his EMAA.



Yes, I would have to agree.  I've heard of instances where they've promoted everyone eligible in a given year, but I would've bet good money that excluded those who didn't meet EPZ dates as well as those who didn't rate a Ready recommendation.  I guess if they need the people at the rank level, they need the people at the rank level.


----------



## rocksteady (21 Apr 2012)

I'm as shocked as anyone, believe me.


----------



## aesop081 (21 Apr 2012)

A few years ago i witnessed everyone who was in the EPZ get promoted to a certain rank, including those who were "developing" and that trade still ran out of people to promote.


----------



## rocksteady (21 Apr 2012)

Occam said:
			
		

> Yes, I would have to agree.  I've heard of instances where they've promoted everyone eligible in a given year, but I would've bet good money that excluded those who didn't meet EPZ dates as well as those who didn't rate a Ready recommendation.  I guess if they need the people at the rank level, they need the people at the rank level.



What does an ML ranking mean? 

Thanks.


----------



## Occam (21 Apr 2012)

rocksteady said:
			
		

> What does an ML ranking mean?



Merit List.


----------



## Pusser (22 Apr 2012)

Occam said:
			
		

> Can you be promoted *without your last PER* being at least a Ready recommendation?  No, because your PER wouldn't be going in front of a selection board if you were not Immediate or Ready, therefore you would never get ranked.
> 
> As to the other question, location really has nothing to do with it.  You have to be promoted into a position at your new rank level.  If there is no position at your current rank level at your current unit (and you're not being moved, of course), then you would not be promoted until Dec, which is called a deferred promotion.  Otherwise, if there is a position for you to go into, either at your current location or a new one you're being posted into, you're normally promoted effective a couple of weeks prior to the posting/position change.



The above statement in yellow is not true.  Every PER has a numerical score, be it NO, DEVELOPING, READY or IMMEDIATE.  The automatic selection process looks at your last three PERs.  The forecast determines the number of files that will go to the Merit Board and be ranked.  If your numbers are high enough to fit within the forecast, then your file goes, irrespective of what your last PER was rated as.  If your last one was a NO, however, it is unlikely you would be promoted, but only because your CO would have to sign off any promotion and he/she is unlikely to do that if he/she had just signed off on a PER that recommended against it.


----------



## OBigD (23 Apr 2012)

Hi Guys,

I have used the search but came up empty for my question.

I am a WENG TECH and have just finished my first year of Electronics Engineering at a civi college. I am trying to find out more information about the promotion to Able Seaman. I know that upon graduating my second year I am promoted to Acting LS and have found literature stating that; however, I have had no luck finding anything about the AS promotion except for civi news articles and a friend at MI tell me they are getting theirs after they graduate first year in December.

Can anyone give me a CANFORGEN reference or anything a little more concrete please??

Thank you all.


----------



## Occam (23 Apr 2012)

The abbreviation for Able Seaman is actually AB (derives from "Able Bodied").  

According to MARCORD 9-61 (Naval Technician Training Plan), promotion to AB is "Successful completion of first Academic Year and AGJL Qualification".  AGJL was the code for OSQAB, but I don't think they call it that anymore...I think it's called NETP (Naval Environmental Training Program).


----------



## CountDC (25 Apr 2012)

except the CO is not the authority.  I have seen it where the CO sent back to the CM that he did not agree with a promotion but it happened anyway.


----------



## DAA (25 Apr 2012)

CountDC said:
			
		

> except the CO is not the authority.  I have seen it where the CO sent back to the CM that he did not agree with a promotion but it happened anyway.



I have seen it also.  CO is the promotion authority up to the rank of Cpl, beyond that it is DGMC.  All prom msgs include the caveate "with CO's concurrence" as the CM may not be aware of local issues taking place with a member that could preclude promotion.  If the CO does not concur, then there must be substantive reasons as to why, such as the member is already on C&P and the CM was not aware of it.  The closest I have seen is a deferral but in the end the member was promoted with the effective date being backdated to the original date on the msg.


----------



## garb811 (25 Apr 2012)

rocksteady said:
			
		

> Is it possible to be promoted without ever receiving an Immediate or Ready but you ranked well within the numbers for promotions to the next rank?
> 
> Also, if you are under the impression you are being promoted and you ask to stay at your current location and you are told you will probably be promoted and be staying, when can you expect to receive a promotion message by at the latest?  I'm guessing June or July?
> 
> Thanks.


Have you talked to your Chain of Command about this or were you told this by someone in your Chain of Command who would know this with certainty?  If you haven't, request to see your WO/MWO or whoever the Snr MP is where you're posted and ask them the direct question. 

For when you will get your message, these are historically cut for pers being promoted/appointed during the APS in early June for MP.  If you are posted in conjunction with that, you should be getting the posting message any time.



			
				rocksteady said:
			
		

> That is what I don't understand.  I was rated 58 and 77 are being forcasted for Promotion yet I have never received anything more than a developing yet I am being told I am "probably" being promoted.  One of the other guys I know was rated 64 (same trade) and received an Immediate or Ready (can't remember) and he is being promoted/posted.


Are you 100% sure about where you ranked and what your last PER(s) have been?  That would put you ahead of some of my pers who have had a Ready and Immediate over the last two years which I would find to be very surprising if you have "never" had anything other than a developing.    

Reference the numbers this year, they are well past their forecast. * IF* you are indeed 58 on the merit list, you are going to be appointed unless there are other issues afoot, such as you being on Compassionate or on C&P, as I have received phone calls from the CM about several of my pers who they have reached but didn't expect to until now.



			
				Occam said:
			
		

> Yes, I would have to agree.  I've heard of instances where they've promoted everyone eligible in a given year, but I would've bet good money that excluded those who didn't meet EPZ dates as well as those who didn't rate a Ready recommendation.


EPZ, yes, they will be removed from consideration prior to the Board sitting but requiring a "Ready" PER, especially as the last one? No.  We had one year where I personally know a guy who was appointed on a Developing, Ready, Developing.  It was a bad year for the Branch and we're still dealing with the fallout of having unready and in some cases downright unsuitable pers promoted/appointed.  Makes me pine for the days of the quality control line.


----------



## xbowhntr (18 May 2012)

Hello All,

I was wondering if anyone has info regarding an apparent CANFORGEN that was released some time ago regarding MOC course recourses now deferring promotion time.

Thanks!


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## Puss in Boots (23 May 2012)

Hey!

  Not sure if you recieved a response but these two CANFORGENS may be related to your question. Unfortunately, they can only be viewed through the intranet:

http://vcds.mil.ca/vcds-exec/pubs/canforgen/2004/111-04_e.asp

http://vcds.mil.ca/vcds-exec/pubs/canforgen/2009/142-09_e.asp

Here is the complete list of CANFORGEN Messages:  http://vcds.mil.ca/vcds-exec/pubs/canforgen/intro_e.asp


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## Sgt_D (7 Jun 2012)

Sup boys, I'm stuck and need some assistance.

Soldier X is informed by his career manager that he has to take a X crs to go from MCpl to Sgt.

Solder X declines.

Soldier X informed that his career within the CF may be terminated.

What CFAO / DOAD / QR&O is associated with this?

So far I've only been able to come up with CFAO 49-4 (CAREER POLICY ON NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS REGULAR FORCE) Sect 40C. but it does not state anywhere that the member could be terminated from the forces or a time frame.

Any help would be appreciated. Cheers.


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## jeffb (7 Jun 2012)

Are you sure that he meant terminated as in release or just that his future career prospects would be terminated. ie. no change of getting the course in the future and therefore, no chance for promotion?


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## Sgt_D (7 Jun 2012)

jeffb said:
			
		

> Are you sure that he meant terminated as in release or just that his future career prospects would be terminated. ie. no change of getting the course in the future and therefore, no chance for promotion?



Exact words from the manager are that X will have to submitt a request for cease career progression thru his CoC
. I assume this cat means that his contract will not be offered for renewal nor will he be considered for future X crses.


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## dogger1936 (7 Jun 2012)

Sgt_D said:
			
		

> Exact words from the manager are that X will have to submitt a request for cease career progression thru his CoC
> . I assume this cat means that his contract will not be offered for renewal nor will he be considered for future X crses.



SgtD

No this doesn't mean he get's released. A few years back we had a few older type Cpl's hanging about and after years of attrition were course loaded on their PLQ. Not wanting the responsibility (or to  show their incompetence). They had to write a memo stating they wished to cease career progression. This kept them in the bottom third pile and ensured their names were not coming up for future courses and landing another guy on crse last minute. All mbrs remained in the forces from what I have seen.

We also had a Mcpl who was near release date (1 year) and was looking to ride out his final time. He had to submit a memo ceasing career progression when he turned down his 6A for no other reason than "I don't want to".


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## aesop081 (7 Jun 2012)

I have a subordinate who will never get beyond MS, at his request. He does  not want to move or assume the responsibilities.

No problems keeping him in.


----------



## GAP (7 Jun 2012)

That may have been the case awhile back, but with the forced attrition I keep hearing about, could it not become a factor?  :dunno:


----------



## PuckChaser (8 Jun 2012)

Sgt_D said:
			
		

> Exact words from the manager are that X will have to submitt a request for cease career progression thru his CoC
> . I assume this cat means that his contract will not be offered for renewal nor will he be considered for future X crses.



You found the right CFAO. He can refuse a career course or posting, it gets deferred. He'll get another shot to take the course or decline, then he's subject to an Admin Review with which one of the outcomes could be release. As CDN Aviator pointed out, another outcome could be retained but no longer offered any career courses. Your MCpl better be prepared for both of those outcomes.


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## Sgt_D (8 Jun 2012)

awesome thanks all.

The reason X cannot do the course is he's a single parent now. Solid dude. Just wanted to find the reference so he can plan to fight it if the Admin review goes South. According to the CFAO and DOAD the Redress of Grievence process covers it in the event he disagrees with the decision.

Again, thx for being quicker then my Coy Clk


----------



## dogger1936 (8 Jun 2012)

Sgt_D said:
			
		

> awesome thanks all.
> 
> The reason X cannot do the course is he's a single parent now. Solid dude. Just wanted to find the reference so he can plan to fight it if the Admin review goes South. According to the CFAO and DOAD the Redress of Grievence process covers it in the event he disagrees with the decision.
> 
> Again, thx for being quicker then my Coy Clk



Him not being able to go for that reason should be deferred by a simple talk to the SSM. If that's the only reason the RSM should be able to sort that out with the career mangler with a phone call. No reason to stop his career due to a temporary personal problem.


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## GAP (8 Jun 2012)

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> Him not being able to go for that reason should be deferred by a simple talk to the SSM. If that's the only reason the RSM should be able to sort that out with the career mangler with a phone call. No reason to stop his career due to a temporary personal problem.



That makes a lot more sense....


----------



## dapaterson (8 Jun 2012)

Use of language is crucial in this case.  Make sure that your solider asks to *defer* the course - that is, take it later instead of now, and then provide the reason together with when he anticipates being able to take it.  Declining the course means he doesn't want it.  Deferring means he wants it, but can not do it right now.


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## cdnrn (18 Jun 2012)

Good day everyone,

My question is in regards to the EPZ date of a member. I do not have DWAN access at the present time so I am unable to see the latest regulations with respects to this topic. From the search in this forum I have come across  the reference CFAO 11-6 -- COMMISSIONING AND PROMOTION POLICY -OFFICERS -REGULAR FORCE".  I see that a member will be at the rank of Lieutenant for 2 years before entering EPZ to captain. On review of my latest MPRR, I see that the date for my EPZ is  24-sep-2014, three years after enrollment. I am a Nursing Officer (NO) who was simultaneously promoted to Lt. upon graduation from basic back dated to enrollment date (12-sept-2011). While I understand that each and every member may have different circumstances, I'm under the understanding that promotion to captain in general is "time in". 

Thank you for your time,


----------



## Shamrock (18 Jun 2012)

Never read policy in isolation. 

Whilst I don't know it by heart, I do know it says members who are silmutaneously promoted to Lt must spend three years as an Lt after their date of promotion.


----------



## DAA (19 Jun 2012)

CFAO 11-6 Annex B deals with promotions for Nursing Officers.  Promotion to Capt is based on the minimum time in rank requirements as shown in Appendix 1.  I believe the minimum time in your case will be 3 years in the rank of Lt  but can go as high as 6.  You will have to get access to a DWAN computer to look at the CFAO to see which column applies to your personal circumstances.


----------



## mitsulance (1 Jul 2012)

Hello,

I was wondering if Naval Operators (NCI OP, NES OP, SONAR OP) reach LS before the end of their 4 year VIE? I understand that there can be an extended period of time during the PAT phase when waiting for clearance, but on average, do operators reach LS rank before they have to sign a CE or IE?

Thanks and Happy Dominion Day!


----------



## Occam (1 Jul 2012)

You actually require 2 years 6 months service to be promoted to AB, and 4 years service to be promoted to LS (disregarding advance promotion).  Since you're usually offered your new contract some time before your contract actually expires, it's pretty unlikely that you'll see your LS unless you accept new terms of service.  Advance promotions to LS typically aren't offered to those who have declined further TOS.


----------



## mitsulance (2 Jul 2012)

Occam said:
			
		

> You actually require 2 years 6 months service to be promoted to AB, and 4 years service to be promoted to LS (disregarding advance promotion).  Since you're usually offered your new contract some time before your contract actually expires, it's pretty unlikely that you'll see your LS unless you accept new terms of service.  Advance promotions to LS typically aren't offered to those who have declined further TOS.



4 years total service correct?

Also, is there is a difference in benefits to those that release at the end of their VIE, through right of release, in comparison to those that sign a CE and then apply for release at the end of their 4 years?

I think I'm mainly confused since I'm looking at the pay scale hoping that there is some sort of direct correlation between time in a position and pay. Since OS and AB are both at the private level (one trained) and since it only goes up to 3 years, that usually people get promoted to LS by the 4th year.


----------



## medicineman (2 Jul 2012)

mitsulance said:
			
		

> 4 years total service correct?
> 
> Also, is there is a difference in benefits to those that release at the end of their VIE, through right of release, in comparison to those that sign a CE and then apply for release at the end of their 4 years?



4 years total service.  Now, unless things have chnaged somewhat since I got out a year ago, the odds of you getting a CE after your Basic Engagement is nigh on impossible...it's generally something that you get after an IE is complete.  If you're in one of those trades, I'd be surprised if you weren't on a longer BE to be honest, due to the length of time it takes to get trained...

MM


----------



## mitsulance (2 Jul 2012)

My apologizes, I misread the TOS Sequence by Occupation document. It appears that all of the naval operator trades don't have anything listed in the CE column and that after the 4 years you would have to sign a IE25.

But still, is there a difference in benefits when you release at the end of the 4 years compared to the sign a IE25 contract and then apply for release?


----------



## Occam (2 Jul 2012)

mitsulance said:
			
		

> But still, is there a difference in benefits when you release at the end of the 4 years compared to the sign a IE25 contract and then apply for release?



Your best bet is to look on the DWAN for your local BPSO website.  On it, you should find the Powerpoint slides from the most recent SCAN seminar, which would summarize the benefits you would get on release very nicely.  They would break down how the benefits compare depending on the release item.


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## Herb (27 Jul 2012)

Hi I need help with what may happen to my carrier.  I am a Cpl and have just been told that I will most likely merit low enough this October to get promoted.  I just got posted to my new unit and love it there.  If I get promoted there wouldn't be a spot for me and I'd have to be posted out.  So what I'm asking is can I, and if I can what would happen to my carrier if I was to what to stay and defer my promotion.


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## LieutenantPrivate (27 Jul 2012)

punch your OC right in the face...that should do the trick


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## aesop081 (27 Jul 2012)

LieutenantPrivate said:
			
		

> punch your OC right in the face...that should do the trick



Do you have anything useful to say or is this the limit of what you have to offer ?


----------



## Towards_the_gap (27 Jul 2012)

Herb said:
			
		

> Hi I need help with what may happen to my carrier.  I am a Cpl and have just been told that I will most likely merit low enough this October to get promoted.  I just got posted to my new unit and love it there.  If I get promoted there wouldn't be a spot for me and I'd have to be posted out.  So what I'm asking is can I, and if I can what would happen to my carrier if I was to what to stay and defer my promotion.
> [/quote
> 
> What trade are you in that you must merit low in order to be promoted???????
> ...


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## Nfld Sapper (27 Jul 2012)

LieutenantPrivate said:
			
		

> punch your OC right in the face...that should do the trick



Uncalled for ...... you are being watched now lad.

MILNET.CA MENTOR


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## agc (27 Jul 2012)

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> In all seriousness, talk to your CofC about a 'Cease progression' memo (and search for it on here). There are 2 sides to this that you must understand fully, as it WILL affect your career, and not necessarily in a good way.



That may be a little drastic.  Although it's not common, I believe a member can turn down 1 promotion without negative career consequences.  Turning down another one triggers the AR process.  PM me and I'll find the ref when I'm in to work on Tues.


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## GAP (27 Jul 2012)

Herb said:
			
		

> Hi I need help with what may happen to my carrier.  I am a Cpl and have just been told that I will most likely merit low enough this October to get promoted.  I just got posted to my new unit and love it there.  If I get promoted there wouldn't be a spot for me and I'd have to be posted out.  So what I'm asking is can I, and if I can what would happen to my carrier if I was to what to stay and defer my promotion.



As an outsider, the first thing that came to mind was "how do you know you will be posted out for sure?". 

Have you actually asked or just listened to barracks talk or scuttlebutt?

Is being posted out necessarily a bad thing. There's a reason why you are being considered for promotion....go with it....enjoy it. 

 :2c:


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## Ex-Dragoon (27 Jul 2012)

LieutenantPrivate said:
			
		

> punch your OC right in the face...that should do the trick



Keep it up and you will be banned. Welcome to the first rung of that ladder.

Milnet.Ca Staff


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## Herb (27 Jul 2012)

I'm in the cook trade and this is not just talk.  I was told by my Sgt. that if I do get promoted that there is not Cpl spots open for me and that I'll be posted out.  He told me that he looked at my file and that I should get promoted next year.  As I have just got posted to this new unit.  I'd like to stay for more than a year.  It took me a long time to get this posting.  I just don't want to screw my carrier if I turn down the promotion.  Just want to know if anyone out there has turn one down or know what will happen if that is what I tell the carrier manager.


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## MJP (27 Jul 2012)

Herb said:
			
		

> I'm in the cook trade and this is not just talk.  I was told by my Sgt. that if I do get promoted that there is not Cpl spots open for me and that I'll be posted out.  He told me that he looked at my file and that I should get promoted next year.  As I have just got posted to this new unit.  I'd like to stay for more than a year.  It took me a long time to get this posting.  I just don't want to screw my carrier if I turn down the promotion.  Just want to know if anyone out there has turn one down or know what will happen if that is what I tell the carrier manager.



I would honestly write a memo stating exactly what you are saying here.  Be honest and frank with your CoC and you may just be surprised to see that they can work out something that benefits both you and the CF.

In my experience I have worked with and been in charge of quite a few Cpls that have chosen to stay Cpls.  There is nothing wrong with it.  These folks IMHO are a strong part of the core of the CF and are just as valuable as those that choose to go further up the chain.  The ones I know that have decided later in their careers to go forth and do leadership training haven't been hindered by their earlier decisions.


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## aesop081 (27 Jul 2012)

Herb said:
			
		

> As I have just got posted to this new unit.  I'd like to stay for more than a year.  It took me a long time to get this posting.



MJP has valid points but i would like to add the other view.

Your situation is not uncommon and reflects reality. Embrace it and take the posting if and when it comes. Further to that, stuff they talk about now is just that - talk. Allot can happen in one year and the "no spot for you" situation can change in a heartbeat.

I first was told i was posted out of my last unit in 2008. I did not leave until 2011. I was told i would be at my current location for 3 years, i am leaving after 11 months. "posting talk" is just that until an actual message shows up.


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## CombatDoc (27 Jul 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> "posting talk" is just that until an actual message shows up.


Furthermore, a posting doesn't happen until your F&E are packed, loaded and on the way to your new destination.  I know of at least one posting that was turned off  just before the member closed his house sale, and this was followed by a cancellation of posting message.


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## Occam (27 Jul 2012)

Here's the policy, direct from the DGMC website.


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## medicineman (28 Jul 2012)

Dude. I got promoted to MCpl, was told they couldn't keep me another year...lo an behold, a position was invented within a new unit that became an attachment from my real unit and was absorbed by them.  I got to stay another year.  Until you hear something from the career manager or at least the local trade advisor AND you have the message in hand, don't count your chickens.  Like a few folks mentioned, put something on paper and staff it up - if you don't, the answer will definitely be "tough tiddly winks" vice might be "tough tiddly winks" or might be "OK, you can hang out another year or two".

MM


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Jul 2012)

The above policy seems pretty clear for the OPs stated intent.

"It is important to note that a request for a
promotion refusal shall not constitute posting evasion for members that wish to remain at the same
location to avoid a posting to another geographical location."

He's SOL, end of story.

Time to move on.


----------



## Occam (28 Jul 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> The above policy seems pretty clear for the OPs stated intent.
> 
> "It is important to note that a request for a
> promotion refusal shall *not* constitute posting evasion for members that wish to remain at the same
> ...



I think you may have missed the "not" in there.  The policy does clearly state that he can refuse the promotion in order to remain at the current location, without running afoul of "posting evasion".  However, that doesn't preclude the CM from posting him at his current rank, and single year promotion refusals are treated much differently than multi-year refusals.


----------



## DAA (30 Jul 2012)

Herb said:
			
		

> So what I'm asking is can I, and if I can what would happen to my carrier if I was to what to stay and defer my promotion.



If you have access to DWAN, go to the DGMC Website, left side, "Promotions" and have a look at "Promotion Refusal".  Pretty self explanatory....  The previous posting by Occam throws some caution to the wind, so you have to be careful in what you choose to do.  Even if you refuse the promotion, there is no guarantee you will stay in location.


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## Paladium (22 Aug 2012)

I can appreciate that people have informed you of where you can obtain the information you need to make an informed choice - so kudos to them.

Having said that, your idea to initiate paperwork for a promotion that has yet to occur is in my opinion fool hardy.  Secondly, refusing a promotion because you want to stay at a place that you consider great is an equally poor decision.

Getting promoted provides you additional experience and opportunities.  If you get posted you will go to a new place that can be great or perhaps it will suck.  In general most people will concur that wherever place you get posted to it is you yourself who will determine how good or poor the posting will be.  There are a lot of places where I thought a posting to there would suck (in my head) but knew many friends who went there and loved it.

Your early on in your career, your promotion would not be deferred - it's not like okay we'll promote you next year then - there are no guarantees my friend (unless you are going from Pte to Cpl).  So you lose out on a promotion, your peers pass you by - they get promoted to the next rank even quicker and the possibilities for meaningful employment are boundless.  You on the other hand still remain at your old rank and a new supervisor has come along that hates your guts and not only are you not promoted your not leaving either.

All this to say - is that your plan is short sighted and if I was your supervisor I would tell you that straight to your face and if you still wanted to do it I would re-evaluate if you are as good and as smart as I initially thought you were.

Lose-lose.


----------



## Occam (22 Aug 2012)

Whoa...

Only the member can decide if choosing to stay at a location is a poor decision or not.

After having spent an entire career in the CF, I can say that sometimes your peers passing you by just isn't all that important in the grand scheme of things.

He's also got to consider that due to the lag between signing a PER and an actual promotion resulting from that PER, that it may well be worth the gamble of getting a new boss he doesn't get along with.

I hope you're not suggesting that you would evaluate someone negatively simply because they made a single promotion refusal.


----------



## Paladium (22 Aug 2012)

All I am saying is that people make poor decisions everyday and I certainly have the right to take that into consideration in future evaluations - of course that is only one piece of information.

In addition, it is also my opinion that if you look at all the pros and benefits of accepting the promotion and refusing it the negatives of refusing the promotion outweigh the positives.  You can not stay in one place for all your career so get on with it.  Also just because you refuse that promotion doesn't mean they can't post you out anyways at your current rank - even if you have only been there a year - you just never no.

I mean every situation is different - I know MSE Ops for example who may refuse a promotion because they like driving over admin - that is a little different and yet of course there are still consequences for such a decision.

As a supervisor, given the reasons given by the individual in this particular case - my first course of action would be to try talk him out of it and I think you have an obligation to do so.  Your thoughts?

While it is ultimately the member's decision, the consequences of that decision do not fall exculively within the domain of the individual.


----------



## Occam (22 Aug 2012)

Were I Cpl Bloggins' supervisor at a highly sought after posting, and I knew that Bloggins just got posted into the position in APS 2012, and Bloggins found out that he scored high enough on the merit list to be promoted to MCpl in APS 2013 (or squeak through on a December 2012 promotion) and be forced to move due to lack of a position at that rank...

...I would certainly not be at all surprised to see Cpl Bloggins refuse the promotion in order to a) possibly remain in the position because he was only just rewarded with said highly sought after posting; and b) maintain some stability after having just finished moving his family from somewhere else, and I think it's unreasonable to ask them to move after only being in one place for 12 months if they don't really want to move.  That goes doubly so if the CM has intentions to post him to a high-tempo unit, and Bloggins just finished a high-tempo posting (and got himself some good promotion PERs out of it) before coming and working for me.

If Bloggins wants to stay where he is for another year (or two?) and the CM sees no problem with it, who am I as the member's supervisor to say he's wrong?  He's made a personal decision in order to best serve his own needs as well as the CF's.  His decision isn't telling me that he has no aspirations of advancement...only that he has no aspirations of advancement in the near future if it means that his quality of life will suffer.  There's a difference.


----------



## Paladium (22 Aug 2012)

You provide a sound example - I am going with only the info that was provided.  Obvious the more info provided - such as in your hypothetical case family - high temp and stuff like that provides greater insight.  If the situation was soley based on hey i like this place no family - no attachments in the area - single - is that reasoning sound enough to stay?  Who knows we can come up with a million scenarios that could justify staying and refusing a promotion - but the justification has to be there.  There are a lot of people who place various justifications why they want or need to stay someplace and they all don't hold water and even in cases where you think someone has more than valid reasons to stay - the CF posts them anyways - we have all seen that.

Earlier it was discussed that he could initaite his paperwork in advance of the promotion even coming.  What aare your thoughts in this regard?  Should he do it now (pre-emptive strike) or wait?


----------



## Occam (22 Aug 2012)

I think that regardless of the member's reasons, be they complex or simple, he/she should have the choice to refuse a promotion if they choose to do so, without further consequence.  The policy that DGMC came out with is fairly clear.  If the member is refusing postings without supporting requests for CCM, compassionate, etc., then that can be dealt with through the AR process.  They are free to refuse promotions without further career implication, so long as they move when told to.  I don't think the PER is the place to comment if a member chooses to refuse a posting.  The PER is meant to indicate performance at the current rank level, and an estimate of potential at the next rank level - not commentary on the member's reasons for refusing a promotion.

As for initiating the paperwork in advance of the promotion coming?  I would think that's unwise.  That said, the member's CoC is obviously in contact with the career shop, and it shouldn't come as any surprise that the member will be ranked high enough for promotion, or that the member intends to refuse a promotion if one occurs.  The CM should already know this, as the member can inform the CM of information such as this through EMAA.  The paperwork can be generated if the promotion message is cut, not before.


----------



## Laval (28 Sep 2012)

Good day all,

I am posted to a small base and there are only two positions in my unit and MOC on Base.  I'm the MCpl IC, and the Sgt position has been vacant for almost a year now.  My Chain of command is not planning on posting in another Sgt (ever).  Eventually my CoC will either delete/transfer one of the two positions.  
My question is:  I am in employed in the Sgt's role without the support of a MCpl;  I'm QL 6a qualified with 2years in rank,  Am I entitled to an advanced/while so employed promotion, or would it just be a request to my CoC?


----------



## dangerboy (28 Sep 2012)

For regular force personnel I have never hear of anybody being WSE while in Canada only for operational deployments, and then at the end of the deployment they went back to their old rank or were promoted.


----------



## GnyHwy (29 Sep 2012)

Your situation is quite common for all trades, doing a job beyond your rank. 

What should be likely is that you will be promoted as soon as your CoC can do it.


----------



## Occam (29 Sep 2012)

I also recall one of the prerequisites of being promoted WSE is that in order to get it, the list of available members at the required rank has to be exhausted, or something along those lines.  Merely performing the duties of the higher rank isn't sufficient, it's that there can't be anyone available at the required rank so they have to go one rank lower to satisfy the requirement.


----------



## honestyrules (29 Sep 2012)

GnyHwy said:
			
		

> Your situation is quite common for all trades, doing a job beyond your rank.
> 
> What should be likely is that you will be promoted as soon as your CoC can do it.



Like Gny says, it's a common situation, but at the same time it's a good occasion for your to show your CoC what you're made of..that should pay off. If you're doing real good you should rank pretty good on the list. but I wouldn't go and "ask" to be accelerated. You should enter your EPZ soon, after two years in the MCpl's rank, so this fall's board might bring something good for you. But all in all, it is almost normal to make members assume responsibilities "one up" in some trades, where rarity/situations makes you "one of the very few". It's your chance to shine :2c:


----------



## Shamrock (29 Sep 2012)

I can't think of any situations where I've seen RegF promoted WSE in Canada (not that anecdotal crap is useful anyhow) but I have seen many a leader promoted acting lacking. 

Isn't there a circumstance where a reservist under ranked for a position may be promoted WSE domestically? I have no references available, so I put this before the general population as a potential avenue to discuss.


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## Blackadder1916 (29 Sep 2012)

Laval said:
			
		

> Good day all,
> 
> I am posted to a small base and there are only two positions in my unit and MOC on Base.  I'm the MCpl IC, and the Sgt position has been vacant for almost a year now.  My Chain of command is not planning on posting in another Sgt (ever).  Eventually my CoC will either delete/transfer one of the two positions.
> My question is:  I am in employed in the Sgt's role without the support of a MCpl;  I'm QL 6a qualified with 2years in rank,  Am I entitled to an advanced/while so employed promotion, or would it just be a request to my CoC?



My take on the OP's scenario, others may have differing (and more current ) opinions.  While it may be more common these days to have unfilled positions, it does not necessarily mean that other pers are performing the duties of that vacant position.  It may just mean that the workload does not require the higher ranking supervisor.  Though not knowing the trade of the OP (and the vacant Sgt's position), I'm assuming (from the the scenario he presented) that he is in a two person section (well, one man shop now since there is no Sgt).  It would than be safe to assume that both are (or would be) responsible for "hands on" work and supervisory duties would have been the responsibility of the Sgt.  If there is no one to supervise, then should an individual be assessed for duties of a higher rank that is not being done?  Unless there is a dimension to the trade that mandates some of the functions that the OP is doing can only be done by a Sgt, I don't (or probably wouldn't) automatically assume that he is filling the Sgt's position.


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## honestyrules (29 Sep 2012)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> My take on the OP's scenario, others may have differing (and more current ) opinions.  While it may be more common these days to have unfilled positions, it does not necessarily mean that other pers are performing the duties of that vacant position.  It may just mean that the workload does not require the higher ranking supervisor.  Though not knowing the trade of the OP (and the vacant Sgt's position), I'm assuming (from the the scenario he presented) that he is in a two person section (well, one man shop now since there is no Sgt).  It would than be safe to assume that both are (or would be) responsible for "hands on" work and supervisory duties would have been the responsibility of the Sgt.  If there is no one to supervise, then should an individual be assessed for duties of a higher rank that is not being done?  Unless there is a dimension to the trade that mandates some of the functions that the OP is doing can only be done by a Sgt, I don't (or probably wouldn't) automatically assume that he is filling the Sgt's position.




True. But at the same time, if the OP is a "one man gang", and manages to fulfill 100% of his occupation's mandate (OP knows if he is actually doing it or not) for his Garrison/Base/Wing/Det, and if the OP has to answer all the questions, meet all the requirements and manage to get the job done, he should already be seen/considered as a good prospect for promotion by his CoC (I'm speculating that the OP is actually a keener)...only his highers know....
On top of that, only the OP knows how his PERs are like...if he's not getting an "immediate", he shouldn't think about getting pushed up A/L, WSE, accel'd or anything like that ,but rather concentrate on his next achievements and next evaluation period.


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## my72jeep (29 Sep 2012)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> Isn't there a circumstance where a reservist under ranked for a position may be promoted WSE domestically? I have no references available, so I put this before the general population as a potential avenue to discuss.



The While so employed is used a lot in the CIC/COATS world both with the CIC Officers and the Reg/Res NCM's. for the most part its as a drop in rank so as to get a full time job.


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## PViddy (29 Sep 2012)

> The While so employed is used a lot in the CIC/COATS world both with the CIC Officers and the Reg/Res NCM's. for the most part its as a drop in rank so as to get a full time job.



Yes...currently living the dream  :nod:  :

PV


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## armyvern (29 Sep 2012)

In any case, the OP is posted into the MCpl posn and not the Sgts posn. For WSE eligibility, one must be officially posted into the higher rank posn.

Harkens back to the days of SCONDVA when the CF routinely left the higher rank posns unfilled, but had lower ranks (who were themselves living in a state of official "freeze on promotions") doing those jobs, but who were themselves posted into the lower ranked posn thus rendering them ineligible for WSE despite the fact they were doing their own/higher jobs. These were the keeners and it was quite obvious the CF was saving money during times of budget cuts on their backs ... I was one of them (as a Cpl was the A/MPO - a WOs posn at the base I was at at the time). As soon as SCONDVA got a hold of shit like that, it was one of their recommendations that this particular unethical practice cease immediately.

Eerily enough, as soon as the promotion freeze was lifted, I flew through the ranks receiving all future promotions at the minimal TIR level.

I hope that the OPs post is not indicative of a slide by the CF back to _those_ days.


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## aesop081 (29 Sep 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I hope that the OPs post is not indicative of a slide by the CF back to _those_ days.



Let's not make any assumptions based solely on what the OP put on here.

Even if he is doing "the job", he is not in it's entirety. Regardless, an empty position a promotion does not make. If the member lower on the merit list than the number of promotions, he will not be promoted simply because theres a vacant position. career managers often have to play "which position am i leaving vacant this year" in order to meet CF and L1 priorities.

I know you know this but many others do not, as evidenced by the promotion bellyaching i routinely hear around the CF.


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## DAA (1 Oct 2012)

Have a look at CANFORGEN 060/00 (Acting Pay/Rank).  It's very "old" but I still do believe, is in effect.


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## Laval (2 Oct 2012)

Thank you DAA,  

I will check out that CANFORGEN tomorrow.   As I stated in my original post, I am the IC, and I am managing both the SGT position and the MCpl Position.  My unit will not be posting in another Sgt,  yet the same roles, and responsibilities required of a Sgt and MCpl's  positions remain.

You would think it would be common sense that if your section once required a Sgt and a MCpl,  and now the section is to be downsize to only one position (with the same roles and responsibilities),  Then it would be the Sgt position that remains.  

After reading the previous posts it does make me weary to bring this request to my CoC.  My CoC obviously feels confident that I can to do both jobs.   But without the rank and pay?

Maybe I should just suck it up, and wait for my CoC and CFPAS to tell me that I have the potential to be a Sgt?

I


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## honestyrules (3 Oct 2012)

Laval said:
			
		

> Thank you DAA,
> 
> I will check out that CANFORGEN tomorrow.   As I stated in my original post, I am the IC, and I am managing both the SGT position and the MCpl Position.  My unit will not be posting in another Sgt,  yet the same roles, and responsibilities required of a Sgt and MCpl's  positions remain.
> 
> ...



Yes, without the rank and pay for now. Like many others actually. At least you have the opportunity to grow with the added responsibilities and "exposure".
Wait for the boards results this fall (your ranking on EMAA after the boards), and base your decision on that maybe?


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## armyvern (5 Oct 2012)

Laval said:
			
		

> Thank you DAA,
> 
> I will check out that CANFORGEN tomorrow.   As I stated in my original post, I am the IC, and I am managing both the SGT position and the MCpl Position.  My unit will not be posting in another Sgt,  yet the same roles, and responsibilities required of a Sgt and MCpl's  positions remain.
> 
> ...



It sucks doesn't it?

I am the A/QM as well for the next year as we will not be having a Capt posted in. As I am doing both jobs (and working horrendous hours to get both jobs done), perhaps I should get my pay and a Captain's pay?? Somehow, I don't see it happening.   

Having been through this before, and having drafted WSE paperwork for others under my employ, I know that one of the pre-reqs is that you (and I) must be posted into that higher ranked position in order to be eligible for WSE. We are not and therefore we are not eligible.


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## PViddy (15 Oct 2012)

I have a question while were on the topic.  I don't have DWAN access for CANFORGEN's but how does IPC work when you've been promoted into a higher rank WSE ? when i drop back into my substative rank in a few years, does that mean a pay cut ?

cheers,

PV


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## my72jeep (15 Oct 2012)

You go back to the Pay rate that you would be at if you stayed at you substantive rank. IE you were a IPC 4 LT. and spent 3 years as a Capt. you would go back to LT. IPC 7.


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## PViddy (15 Oct 2012)

What i thought, Thanks!

PV


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## SprCForr (15 Oct 2012)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> I can't think of any situations where I've seen RegF promoted WSE in Canada (not that anecdotal crap is useful anyhow) but I have seen many a leader promoted acting lacking.



I know a couple who were back at the turn of the century.

Crap. Now I feel old.


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## DELTADOG13 (17 Oct 2012)

I was Promoted While So Employed to WO in Meaford. I had been doing the job for over 6-9 months, Reg Force RCR, qualified 3B, position available and no promoted person to fill job. It was odd but doable. Chain of Command pushed it up and it was approved within months. I was due to be substantive within 6 months but was waiting for the guy ahead of me to get qualified. So it is not as far fetched as we may think. Its up to your Chain of Command to push the paperwork and have your Career manager approve. Good Luck.


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## mc876898 (14 Nov 2012)

When I first joined just over a year ago I did a PLAR.
It took months, but it was eventually successful and they wrote off my DP 1.1 ACISS IST course.
This means I was trade qualified right off the bat.

From what I can understand, if you are trade qualified on joining, you may be entitled to a higher rank once basic training is completed.

I think what might have happened is that I didn't get promoted because technically the ACISS IST trade didn't exist when I first joined. 
It only popped up sometime near the end of my basic, or SQ course.

Should I have been promoted to PTE(T) after completing basic training?
I'm wondering if I should bring it up with my chain of command.


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## Nfld Sapper (14 Nov 2012)

mc876898 said:
			
		

> Should I have been promoted to PTE(T) after completing basic training?



That is not a promotion.... a promotion would be from Pte to Cpl

Only difference from Pte (B) to Pte(T) is that latter is authorized to wear a hook and regimental accouterments while the former is not.


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## MikeL (14 Nov 2012)

In the Regular Force,  you do note get your hook immediately after your trades course.  You have to be in the CF for XX amount of time as well as be trade qualified to become a Pte(T).  At this time,  you  may not have enough time served yet,  just wait for it it will come.  Not like you're missing out on any money or anything.




			
				NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Only difference from Pte (B) to Pte(T) is that latter is authorized to wear a hook and regimental accouterments while the former is not.



Pte(B)s can wear Regimental Capbadges,  trade badges, etc as long as they are QL3/DP1 qualified.


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## 392 (14 Nov 2012)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Only difference from Pte (B) to Pte(T) is that latter is authorized to wear a hook and regimental accouterments while the former is not.



Is this a PRes thing? All throughout the RegF Regts, Pte(B) pers regularly (and are expected to) wear Regimental accoutrements across the board, minus of course the single chevron.


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## toughenough (14 Nov 2012)

Capt. Happy said:
			
		

> Is this a PRes thing? All throughout the RegF Regts, Pte(B) pers regularly (and are expected to) wear Regimental accoutrements across the board, minus of course the single chevron.



I don't think so. Our PRes pers typically get regimental stuff after SQ, give or take. What typically ends up happening is the next parade that comes along, they are expected to wear our headdress (as we don't wear berets, it is very obvious), so it gets sorted out at this time. It varies for everyone, but few wait until completion of DP1.


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## Swingline1984 (14 Nov 2012)

mc876898 said:
			
		

> When I first joined just over a year ago I did a PLAR.
> It took months, but it was eventually successful and they wrote off my DP 1.1 ACISS IST course.
> This means I was trade qualified right off the bat.



As a DP 1.1 ACISS you are an ISS, not an IST.  An ISS is technically core ACISS with an IS qual.  You will not be IST until you are boarded and selected and complete DP 2.1 (after common 2.0).

Rank (PteT) is not only tied to qual but also qualifying service (36 months for a hook).


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## Snakedoc (26 Nov 2012)

Out of curiosity, not sure if anyone would have knowledge on the process, but does anyone know what the promotion criteria is like for specialist Medical Officers like surgeons, radiologists etc from Major up?

I'm assuming that specialist Medical Officers still have merit boards but other than the required time in rank, what criteria does the merit board look at (I'm assuming things like amount of research done, papers published, additional appointments at civilian hospitals, academic appointments, performance on operational tours etc.)?  Or is promotion pretty much automatic after the required time in rank for each rank level and given the availability of positions in a rank?


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## MedCorps (28 Nov 2012)

Promotion from Major to LCol for specialist medical officers is automatic after five years in rank assuming that they completed some of the OPMEs (I am not sure how many were required) and passed their PT test and  medical. 

I am told that is about to change starting next year with the programme (which was done for retention purposes) will be coming to an end (5 years most often corresponded with when the oblig period was done for residency and we wanted to prevent them from bailing so we gave them a promotion).  

This change will result in some sort of rank versus position cap.  We will see what happens, heck it might even go merit based, which is certainly is NOT currently. 

MC


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## Snakedoc (30 Nov 2012)

Thanks for your expertise as usual MedCorps!  Interesting changes in the health services world with recruiting/retention becoming less and less of a problem, particularly for MO's.


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## MedCorps (30 Nov 2012)

Yeah... who would have guessed that we would ever be a full strength / over strength for MOs!  When I joined I never would have guessed that I would have seen it in my career.  It is a sign that the attraction / recruiting / personnel management people know what they are doing.  

Happy days  

MC


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## Snakedoc (30 Nov 2012)

MedCorps said:
			
		

> Yeah... who would have guessed that we would ever be a full strength / over strength for MOs!  When I joined I never would have guessed that I would have seen it in my career.  It is a sign that the attraction / recruiting / personnel management people know what they are doing.
> 
> Happy days
> 
> MC



Yeah I feel like we are one of the only militaries in the world that has this situation for MO's actually!  However, I'm assuming many of these MO's are still in the training pipeline and not at our clinics on base yet?


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## MedCorps (30 Nov 2012)

I think it is next year that the big bulge of MOs comes out of the schooling pipeline and then another year or so for them all to get BMOQ / BMOC / maybe the new field course, Flt Surg / Dive Med etc and be working full time in clinics. 

MC


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## misratah500 (3 Dec 2012)

I know you can put in a grievance for your PER, but this is not that. I'll explain my question after a little background info.

So I was merited number 4 on the 2012 PO2 list last year. They promoted 1-3 in April and that left me as brides maid for the last 8 months. They said they were freezing promotions till December 1st because they didn't know how many people would be releasing/retiring. In the mean time, two PO2 billets opened up in October (Retirement and Promo to PO1).

So I know there are two high priority billets open right now and I should be in line for one of them. But what if the career manager chooses not to promote me? Can he do that. What if he leaves the billets open till the spring of 2013? Is that even allowed.  Those units with the holes are looking to get them filled with personnel ASAP!

Is there a grievance process in place where if say come January 1st I hear nothing about a back dated promotion of Dec 1st, I can file an grievance to get promoted off the 2012 merit list when he might promote someone else next spring off the 2013 merit list?

I meet with my CM on December 11th to find out solidly whats going on, but I'm still very unsure. 

To summarize is there anything I can do to stop him from skipping my promotion this year and just holding out and promoting someone else next year. 

_- mod edit for spelling of thread title - _


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## Shamrock (3 Dec 2012)

http://www.cfga-agfc.forces.gc.ca/index-eng.asp


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## misratah500 (3 Dec 2012)

So you can technically grieve anything?


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## McG (3 Dec 2012)

misratah500 said:
			
		

> But what if the career manager chooses not to promote me? Can he do that.


Yes.




			
				misratah500 said:
			
		

> What if he leaves the billets open till the spring of 2013? Is that even allowed.


Yes.



			
				misratah500 said:
			
		

> Is there a grievance process in place where if say come January 1st I hear nothing about a back dated promotion of Dec 1st, I can file an grievance to get promoted off the 2012 merit list when he might promote someone else next spring off the 2013 merit list?


You can grieve, but if you cannot show the CM did something wrong then you can expect the grievance will not be upheld.



			
				misratah500 said:
			
		

> To summarize is there anything I can do to stop him from skipping my promotion this year and just holding out and promoting someone else next year.


This is within the prerogative of the military.  There is no obligation to promote into all vacancies, and if the military chooses not to promote in to all vacancies then there will be pers who miss out on a promotion that year.  It comes down to what the military needs.  Sometimes that need is for guys to keep working in a lower rank.


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## Shamrock (3 Dec 2012)

> Section 1 - General
> 
> 7.01 - RIGHT TO GRIEVE
> 
> ...



As MCG has pretty much closed the loop on this, I'll point out this one last thing.  Should the trade opt not to fill those two new PO billets until the new fiscal year, you are still not guaranteed to get them as your ranking may have remained static after the reporting period - meaning you remain 3 and, perhaps, 4 and 5 have moved up to 1 and 2.

For further reading, I recommend http://www.cfgb-cgfc.gc.ca/English/home.html


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## misratah500 (3 Dec 2012)

I've heard that too, but I've never been able to find a reference for the whole non promotion theory etc. He could say that he doesn't to promote because of shortages at the lower ranks or whatever but I can clearly point out that their is not a shortage, I believe I could have some ammunition proving that his line of thinking is incorrect. Or would I just be wasting my time?


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## misratah500 (3 Dec 2012)

Well thanks for the quick answers anyways guys. The next 9 days is going to be a long one for me till I meet the CM. I'm hoping one of the units that wants their PO2 billet filled has the CM's ear and maybe we could talk and work something out and persuade him. Hopefully XMAS will come early this year.


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## Shamrock (3 Dec 2012)

misratah500 said:
			
		

> Or would I just be wasting my time?



You do not have a vested right to a promotion.  While this may be a valuable bit of professional development for you, it will represent a considerate investment in time and money of the CF.


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## captloadie (3 Dec 2012)

If the message for promotion was not cut on Friday, you won't be promoted off of this merit list. As stated, you could grieve the issue, but unless you were bypassed to promote someone below you, what are you going to grieve?


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## DAA (4 Dec 2012)

If the promotion message has not yet been released (ie; approved by D Mil C), then you have nothing substantive to grieve.  The only thing you currently have is what the CM has told you and you can't grieve something that someone has "told" you.....  Just my thoughts.


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## Good2Golf (4 Dec 2012)

Keep in mind that un-filled positions are not directly tied to CMs being able to promote someone.  Promotions are conducted with regards to a trade's overall preferred manning level (PML) and the adjusted PML as may be authorized by DG Mil C.  Not every position in the CF gets filled with a warm body, even if that position previously was manned.  This means that just even though there may be a vacancy at a particular trade and rank, the CM is not necessarily in a position to promote beyond his/her authorized numbers. 

In you case, you noted you were merited #4 in your trade and rank.  Whether or not you were/will be promoted depends on what the authorized numbers for promotion of that trade were.   If three or less, then unfortunately you would not be promoted. If you were within the trade/rank promotion numbers for the 2012 list and you were not posted into a PO2 position during APS 2012, then you would be promoted on 1 Dec 12 -- this situation happens a lot for folks "on the bubble" (i.e. near the bottom of the promotion numbers).

I agree with others who note that this is how the establishment/manning/promotion issue works and that you do not appear to be being disadvantaged or treated inappropriately.  You would need to carefully consider if grieving against an established and Departmentally-approved process is really to your benefit.  It is your right to grieve any situation wherein you feel you are not being treated appropriately. Take what I and others tell you as you see fit, but I think we are tracking this accurately.  Not to sound harsh, but I think you are the only person who believes you are not being treated fairly.

Regards
G2G


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## misratah500 (13 Dec 2012)

Just an update, my promotion message was cut today. A day after the CM told me I wasn't getting made, he changed his mind. I not sure why he did, but i'm grateful he did.


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## DAA (13 Dec 2012)

:goodpost:

Glad to see things worked out for you......at what ever rank you have been promoted to!

It no doubt has been a good learning experience which you can pass on to your troops......

Like wiping your ass.....nothing is ever complete, until the paperwork is done!!!


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## Pieman (13 Dec 2012)

> Just an update, my promotion message was cut today. A day after the CM told me I wasn't getting made, he changed his mind. I not sure why he did, but i'm grateful he did.


Ask him, if you feel he is approachable for that. Might be interesting to find out what was holding him back in the first place too.


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## dapaterson (14 Dec 2012)

It may be he was waiting for the AMOR - if an occupation is about to be reduced in strength, it's bad to promote to the current establishment, since you'll then be overborne at that rank and not get any more promotions for years.  Artillery Major in the 1990s is a classic example...


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## ModlrMike (14 Dec 2012)

Here's my take from 30 years experience. There's always at least 10% of the merit list above you who can't be promoted for some reason or other. Given that, if the CM says you're 12th out of 11 promotions, you should still be good because there's 1-2 ahead of you in the red zone. You might not see the promotion until Christmas, but your chances are still good. If your promotion forecast is less than five, the this calculation goes out the window.


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## GnyHwy (14 Dec 2012)

Aside from what others have said, I'll add another spin to this. Topping the merit year after year doesn't necessarily mean you will get promoted.  Not certain for all trades and elements, but from my experience the merit only gets you to the selection board.  Once at the board it is all the additional things such as: doing a job above rank, doing a special job (institutional), education, desire for more education, language profile etc.  It is all those points that get you promoted, and the MOI is only about 70% of the total points.

A person could be the greatest person in their job, be very capable of performing the duties of the next rank, do this year after year getting several MOIs in a row, but when they get to the board, they get their butts kicked because they don't have all those other points.

Sometimes it seems that the persons busting their *** operationally, who get the MOIs and get to the board, don't necessarily get promoted.  Conversely, the persons getting the extra education and that have the points, don't ever make it to the board.  This is only a perception, but it seems that the guys that are winning are the ones that just plug along, lay low in an "easier"(1) job that gives them high PERs, all the while accumulating the extra points along the way.

(1) Doesn't necessarily apply to Jnr ranks as exceptional Jnrs will always be put into tough jobs to challenge them.  Applies more to middle management jobs where the spectrum of employment is much larger and the difficulty level can vary quite a bit.


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## Occam (14 Dec 2012)

I think (and I may well stand to be corrected on this) what the OP was alluding to is this:

Smith, Bloggins and Jones are ranked 1, 2 and 3 on this year’s merit list, respectively.  The CM anticipates one promotion, and promotes Smith during the APS.  However, the CM knows that there will be a vacancy opening up prior to the end of the year.  So, on Dec 1, the CM looks at the merit list and says to himself “I really don’t like Bloggins.  I’m going to elect not to promote to PML this year, because I know from the merit boards that just sat that Jones overtook Bloggins on next year’s merit list, so Jones can be promoted into the vacancy next year”.

The reason “I don’t really like Bloggins” can be substituted with any of a number of reasons, it doesn’t have to be as nefarious as a personality conflict.  That said, if there is a policy that deals with whether a CM can promote to PML or not, that’s fine.  If it’s left up to the CM’s personal discretion, then I can see where there’d be an opportunity for suspicion.

Before anyone suggests that this scenario couldn’t possibly play out, bear in mind that one of our elements still requires that the member’s supervisor (or someone else from the CoC) must be present during the member’s personal interview with the CM.  No one-on-one interviews allowed.


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## McG (14 Dec 2012)

GnyHwy said:
			
		

> Topping the merit year after year doesn't necessarily mean you will get promoted.  Not certain for all trades and elements, but from my experience the merit only gets you to the selection board.


This is wrong for all occupations.  The merit ranking is a product of the selection boards.  One can check their ranking through EMAA.  If you don't have results, it means that you were not ranked either because your PER scores were below the cutoff line or because you do not have enough time in rank.


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## GnyHwy (14 Dec 2012)

Occam said:
			
		

> I think (and I may well stand to be corrected on this) what the OP was alluding to is this:



I knew I wasn't necessarily answering the OP's question.  My post was just an aside that came to mind, that kind of relates.  Also, it seems that the OP and other posters believe that the CM has actual power to promote or not promote.  I don't understand it that way at all.  The CM's opinion is certainly valued, but it is the COs and RSMs of units that decide who is promoted through the scoring at the selection board.  The CM is just the "manager" of all person's data.



			
				MCG said:
			
		

> This is wrong for all occupations.  The merit ranking is a product of the selection boards.  One can check their ranking through EMAA.  If you don't have results, it means that you were not ranked either because your PER scores were below the cutoff line or because you do not have enough time in rank.



Yes that would be the textbook answer. If only it were only that simple.  With promotions happening and persons improving themselves with the criteria I mention above, last year's selection board is only valid for the year that it was done.  If you don't get promoted that year, your going up again next year with a clean slate.  You don't get points for doing well at last year's selection.  This is where the misunderstanding lies with persons expecting to get promoted.  If a person is 3rd at the selection board and 2 get promoted, does that mean he is next to get promoted?  Not necessarily, because a lot can happen in a short period of time, especially since the points separating 1-15 might be very small.  In the event that things do change, and that person who was #3 has now fell to whatever, he is going to be upset, and rightfully so.  What that #3 person isn't recognizing is that they passed a bunch of persons to get to #3, and now they are being passed by others for the same type reasons.

Further, I would venture to guess, especially when only small numbers are being promoted, that there are many deserving soldiers that don't get promoted because they didn't quite make the cut.  They are sitting just below the cut (bottom end of MOIs), not ever making the selection, and therefore not getting recognized for all that extra criteria that they may have excelled in.


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## garb811 (14 Dec 2012)

GnyHwy said:
			
		

> I knew I wasn't necessarily answering the OP's question.  My post was just an aside that came to mind, that kind of relates.  Also, it seems that the OP and other posters believe that the CM has actual power to promote or not promote.  I don't understand it that way at all.  The CM's opinion is certainly valued, but it is the COs and RSMs of units that decide who is promoted through the scoring at the selection board.  The CM is just the "manager" of all person's data.


For us purple trades at least, "the" selection board that matters is the national board(s) which sits in Ottawa end Sep - end Oct.  That is where the national merit list is decided and the promotions devolve from there via the CM.  After Cpl, the CO has no authority to appoint/promote independently and even though the CO nominally has the authority to decline to promote, this is almost unheard of once the message is cut.  This is because we compete against or peers Nationally, not simply Regimentally.

Although the CM doesn't personally have the authority to stop promoting to fill vacancies, there are a number of ways this can happen, one of them being the CM presenting a compelling argument to D Mil C as to why they should not continue further down the merit list, as happened with at least one trade this year.


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## GnyHwy (15 Dec 2012)

Not sure why you quoted me?  It seems you trying to re butt what I said, but all you did was reinforce what I said or misread what I said. This is what I said.



			
				GnyHwy said:
			
		

> I knew I wasn't necessarily answering the OP's question.  My post was just an aside that came to mind, that kind of relates.  Also, it seems that the OP and other posters believe that the CM has actual power to promote or not promote.  I don't understand it that way at all.  The CM's opinion is certainly valued, but it is the COs and RSMs of units that decide who is promoted through the scoring at the selection board.  The CM is just the "manager" of all person's data.



What you said.



			
				garb811 said:
			
		

> For us purple trades at least, "the" selection board that matters is the national board(s) which sits in Ottawa end Sep - end Oct.  That is where the national merit list is decided and the promotions devolve from there via the CM.  After Cpl, the CO has no authority to appoint/promote independently and even though the CO nominally has the authority to decline to promote, this is almost unheard of once the message is cut.  This is because we compete against or peers Nationally, not simply Regimentally.
> 
> Although the CM doesn't personally have the authority to stop promoting to fill vacancies, there are a number of ways this can happen, one of them being the CM presenting a compelling argument to D Mil C as to why they should not continue further down the merit list, as happened with at least one trade this year.



You mention a "national board".  Who do yo think is at that national board?  The COs and RSMs that I mentioned.

You state that the CO has no authority to promote beyond Cpl.  Where did I say that?  I said COs and RSMs (plural) decide who gets promoted, at the selection board.

You mention that the CM can make a compelling argument to D Mil C.  I hope your not suggesting that the CM makes this decision and argument alone.  He may be telling D Mil C what his trade should do, but it is the COs that make that decision.

Lastly, you mention promotions national vs regimental.  For the Arty and Engineers it is national, for the RCR, VP, and 22 I am not sure, but their regiments are large enough that it equals out anyway.  It may only be the Armd  that promote within a Bn sized unit, but I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong.  

The one big difference I could see between large (green) units and small (purple) units is that it is less likely for persons in purple trades to shuffle up and down after the selection.  But, this has nothing to do green or purple, it is pure math and the fact that there are less persons to make it happen.


----------



## navymich (15 Dec 2012)

GnyHwy said:
			
		

> You mention a "national board".  Who do yo think is at that national board?  The COs and RSMs that I mentioned.



This was the makeup for my trade's national board:



> This year's PER merit board will be 15 - 19 Oct in Ottawa.  The board will consist of the following personnel:
> 
> President - LCol xxxxxxxx (AEC);
> Member - LCdr xxxxxx (CMS) (non-affiliated member)
> ...



Yes, I can see how the 2x CWO could be RSMs.   But they certainly aren't all of them.  Plus, the non-affiliated member (ie, someone who is of a completely different trade and has no knowledge of the members by name) is there to provide non-biased opinions.  The CM is only there to provide the paperwork and take notes.  There is no CO at all.  There are national standards to follow as to the scoring.  Our CM provides the whole thing for us to see how the evaluation is done.  

Talking to a former CM, although scoring may vary between trades and elements, this is the process that is followed throughout all National boards.


edited to remove names of board members.  Although this info is available through the DWAN, I felt that it shouldn't be posted here.


----------



## Ostrozac (15 Dec 2012)

GnyHwy said:
			
		

> You mention a "national board".  Who do yo think is at that national board?  The COs and RSMs that I mentioned.
> 
> You state that the CO has no authority to promote beyond Cpl.  Where did I say that?  I said COs and RSMs (plural) decide who gets promoted, at the selection board.



The national boards held each fall for each occupation contain senior members of the MOSID (plus a few outsiders). For field artillerymen, for example, those board members could easily be the RSM's of the horse regiments and the arty school. For most occupations there will be no relation between the members normal unit RSM in garrison and the senior CWOs of the occupation. For instance, a horse artillery regiment also includes weapons techs, RMS clerks, and met techs. Field artillery CWO's will not be sitting on those national promotion boards.

Similarly, for officers, while infantry officers of a battalion of The RCR may be boarded nationally at a board that consists of infantry LCols that are also the members CO's -- the other officers of an infantry battalion --the QM, the Maint O, the Int O, the Sig O, the Padre -- will be boarded at national boards against other members of their own occupation by a board that will not include their own (RCR-badged) CO.


----------



## SMG III (15 Jan 2013)

Can someone give me an average time of how long it takes to become each rank?
By average I mean the best answer you can give.. Like if I wasn't extremely bad or extremely good I guess.

Starting at 
Private(Trained):
 Corporal:
 MCorporal:
 Sergeant:
 WO:
 MWO: CWO:

and

After becoming an Officer Cadet,
 2Lieutenant:
 Lieutenant:
 Capt: Maj:
 LCol:
 Col:
 BGen:
 MGen:
 LGen:
 Gen (CoD):

Also If I start at Private and go to MCpl or Sgt I was told if I were then to go to school and become an Officer, I can get an advanced promotion (Captain I think..)

How long would it take to go from Private to Sgt, go to school, to OCadet to Captain?

It's kinda hard to answer I know, but please help the best you can, cause it is rather important to me..  Thanks


----------



## DAA (15 Jan 2013)

You have asked a question which can't be answered in a general sense.  Each and every occupation is dramatically different and is influenced by several factors on a regular basis.  We could give you the "minimum time in rank" requirements for advancement but that is all it is, a "minimum time requirement".  Doesn't mean you will be promoted when that time comes.


----------



## Smirnoff123 (15 Jan 2013)

If you are looking for an advanced way to get to Captain, I dont think a CFR is a way to do it.


----------



## FJAG (15 Jan 2013)

I doubt if anyone can give you the "average" time without doing a major statistical analysis. There are CFAOs that provide for minimum times in rank and I've given you a quick summary below.

Please note these are for general service regular force and there are great variations for reservists and specialist branches and trades.

Please note as well that these are excerpts from an old website as the current CFAOs are no longer available on the internet although they are still available on the DIN. If you know a current serving member they may be able to get you the appropriate CFAOs concerned. 

I know that there is some info missing from what you seek but this is the best I can coble together without devoting an evenings research to.

Cheers

CFAO 11-6

20.    Except as provided in paragraph 21, promotion to the ranks of 
captain, major, lieutenant-colonel and colonel is competitive and is based 
on merit and service requirements within each MOC.  Officers will be 
selected for such promotions from among those:


     a.   who have entered the promotion zone for promotion to the next
          rank on attaining the required number of years of seniority in
          their current rank as follows -


          (1)  as a lieutenant - two years, except that for those
               commissioned as a lieutenant under the UTPM or CFRP the
               period is three years,


          (2)  as a captain - four years,


          (3)  as a major - four years, or


          (4)  as a lieutenant-colonel - three years;


CFAO 49-4 TABLE 1 -NORMAL PROMOTION -- ALL MOC EXCEP DENTAL, MAR ENG, AND MUSICIAN MOCS

Pte to Cpl - 4 yrs qualifying service

Cpl to MCpl - 2 yrs

MCpl to Sgt - 2 yrs

Sgt to WO - 3 yrs

WO to MWO - 3 yrs

MWO to CWO - 2 yrs


----------



## Booya McNasty (21 Jan 2013)

There's nothing set in stone.  

I was on ILQ with a 29 year old Patricia Warrant Officer.  Basically his career went Battleshool - Tour - Promotion - Course - Tour / Promotion - Course - Promotion - Tour - Course.  In a war-time army, this isn't too crazy if you're good at what you do.  However, is unheard of in a tech trade - Say, AVN (A plane fixer).  You're spending at least six years on the shop floor before you're a MCpl.  (If I'm wrong here guys, correct me, I only have a few AVN buddies).  Most of the people on that course (for Sgt's WOs) were within 7 years of retirement.  I've also seen Majors under 30.  Again, probably combat arms, probably very good at what they do.  If you're a Health Care Administration Officer, or an Air Force Construction Engineering Officer, you're in a smaller trade, therefore slower promotions as a general rule.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (21 Jan 2013)

The biggest unknown factor in this equation you're asking us for input/thoughts on is YOU.

- how will you perform, what kind of assessments on courses, deployment and annually (called PERs) will you get?

- how will you rate amongst your peers for merit purposes for promotion?

- what is the attrition rate of your trade?  If it is high, there may be a fast timeline for promotion.  If it is low, not so much (maybe).

That is just 3 of many possible factors.

The factors that affect each trade are known, atleast to some extent, but it is how YOU will merit amongst your peers that will have the biggest effect on your career.  

Don't join the CF in 'trade X' under the belief you will get to do a change in trades, or go from NCM to Officer.  Join one you think you can see yourself doing for your career, because there is no quarunteee you will get either an Occupational Transfer or be able to Commission into the Officer Corps.

 :2c:


----------



## Optikn (19 Feb 2013)

Just wondering if anyone could point me in the right direction. I tried looking up on the DAOD CFAO's but I couldnt find an answer. So here is my situation.
I was on OJT within my rank for about a two years, throughout this whole time I had successfully completed all PT tests on time. Then this past summer I was finally enrolled on my DP1 course where although I successfully completed the course I failed a PT test in the middle of it for various reasons. As such I was not promoted on course completion and had to wait the 3 months to retry the PT test which I successfully passed without problems. Now they are promoting be but my message states that I have lost all of my effective time that I spend on OJT as a 2Lt (about a year of extra time) and am promoted without that time towards Capt and its yearly payraise.
To me this came out of nowhere and seams a bit harsh losing 1 year of service for 3 month period without a valid express. 
So again if anyone can point me in the right direction it would be more then helpful.
Thank you.


----------



## technophile (22 Feb 2013)

Optikn said:
			
		

> Just wondering if anyone could point me in the right direction.



I would point you in the direction of the gym.


----------



## Jammer (22 Feb 2013)

If you had a PER or PDR administered during that time that indicated you failed a PT test, it will reflect on your seniority. There is no reason to fail a PT test, particularly while you are in the training system.


----------



## UnwiseCritic (22 Feb 2013)

It does seem a little unjust to me however as currently our forces are 53% overweight they might just be trying to make an example. And having said that there is no reason to fail a pt test other than injury or being sick as the standards are fairly low at least for your current trade. When you do become a pl comd you should be much fitter than your men for the most part as there are some freaks of nature out there. So the only advice I can give you is learn from your mistake and show em up. 

As for failing it's partly the systems fualt but take responsiblity for it. Good luck


----------



## Eye In The Sky (22 Feb 2013)

I'm not exactly sure what it is you are looking for?  Regs on promotion?  Remedial measures?  DAOD on physical fitness?


----------



## Occam (22 Feb 2013)

Seems like a career policy question to me;  determination of seniority.   I'm not quite sure why failing an EXPRES test would affect things.   It may put things on hold,  but I don't see it actually changing dates.   That said,  I'm not that familiar with officer career policy...so I'll defer to someone who is up to speed on that.


----------



## Carolingian (27 Feb 2013)

Hello all;
   I am hoping to get a response from an Aerospace Control Officer or someone who really knows the ranking/promotion system.
   I'm wondering what the promotion rate of an Aerospace Control Officer (AEC) is. Do AECs make it to the General Staff often, or is it more of a rarity?
   I understand that your education, PERs, experience, and other factors contribute to whether you're promoted or not, but, as I'm sure you all know, some trades are more likely to go up through the ranks faster than others. I was just wondering where the AEC trade fits into the "promotion rate" list.

Thank you in advance.


----------



## Jorkapp (28 Feb 2013)

I won't comment on promotion rates of one trade versus another, but as to AEC in the General Staff, I know of one off the top of my head: BGen Galvin commands 2 Cdn Air Div, responsible for Air Force Training.

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dsa-dns/sa-ns/ab/sobv-vbos-eng.asp?mAction=View&mBiographyID=721


----------



## once a gunner (28 Feb 2013)

I am not an AEC but an AC Op who works closely with AEC's  and in my 10 years in the trade I have seen 3 AEC's become General Officers.


----------



## chadk (16 May 2013)

I am looking to see if there might be a CANFORGEN for being promoted while on a tcat.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (16 May 2013)

Not sure about that, but you could try a read thru CFAO 49-4  Career Policy NCM Reg Force.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (16 May 2013)

chadk said:
			
		

> I am looking to see if there might be a CANFORGEN for being promoted while on a tcat.



Depends, as you generally have to be physically and medically fit for promotions.....


----------



## Jacky Tar (16 May 2013)

Since I'm on my DNET acct at the moment, CFSO 49-4 says:

'19. When a member of the rank of Cpl or above who is eligible for promotion is assigned a temporary medical category that is lower than the minimum required for the member's MOC, promotion shall be deferred. Reinstatement of the member by NDHQ/DPCAOR (Director Personnel Career Administration Other Ranks) shall occur only when a permanent category at or above the minimum MOC requirement is approved by NDHQ/DMTS, (Director Medical Treatment Services) or on declaration of a Career Medical Review Board (CMRB) finding of retention without restriction. In either case, the member must meet all other promotion prerequisites and the promotion shall not be antedated more than 12 months. The member shall be advised of the CO's action and the NDHQ decision."

Per Annex C para 6, acting/lacking rank may not be granted for medical; it can only be for lack of qualifications.

As far as CANFORGENs go, the only one I could find on the CANFORGEN site that seemed relevant was 184/11, which has to do with promotion of personnel wounded in action.


----------



## Occam (16 May 2013)

Other than the CFAO on career policy, there are other policies from the career shops.

See the first couple of links at http://cmp-cpm.forces.mil.ca/dgmc/engraph/admRev_MedicalEmploymentLimitations_e.asp?Opensub=40 (DWAN only).


----------



## m6 (21 May 2013)

I'm not sure if this is the right place for this question, but here goes.

Due to the fact that MCpl is, by definition if nothing else, an appointment, can one be promoted straight from Cpl to Sgt? Assuming all requisite courses, TI, etc.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (21 May 2013)

AFAIK, no...


----------



## m6 (21 May 2013)

Thanks for the reply. I'm thinking not as well, but it crossed my mind as an interesting question. Funny when you think about it, considering Sgt IS the next higher rank.


----------



## MJP (21 May 2013)

m6 said:
			
		

> Thanks for the reply. I'm thinking not as well, but it crossed my mind as an interesting question. Funny when you think about it, considering Sgt IS the next higher rank.



CFAO 49.4 Table 1-9 holds the answer.  Table 1 & 2 for most MOCs.  Short answer for those without DWAN is that even as an accelerated promotion you need at least 1 year as a MCpl.


----------



## DAA (21 May 2013)

m6 said:
			
		

> I'm not sure if this is the right place for this question, but here goes.
> 
> Due to the fact that MCpl is, by definition if nothing else, an appointment, can one be promoted straight from Cpl to Sgt? Assuming all requisite courses, TI, etc.



Not unless you are a Musician.....I believe that is the only occupation in the CF that jumps a rank.


----------



## dapaterson (21 May 2013)

CFAO 49-4 is still in force for the Reg F.  A Cpl could be appointed MCpl, then a year later be given an accelerated promotion to Sgt.  Under the CFAO, that's as fast as is possible.

However, QR&O vol 1 chapter 11, section 11.02 does state "(2) In any particular instance or in any given circumstances, the Chief of the Defence Staff may direct that the requirement to meet any promotion standards be waived. "

So, in theory, the CDS could promote from Cpl to Sgt directly; I can't imagine many scenarios where that would happen.


----------



## Bzzliteyr (21 May 2013)

I don't want to brag but I was promoted from Cpl to Sgt.

Mind you, it was a month after I had been demoted to Cpl FROM Sgt and I managed to get my decision overturned.

But still, Cpl to Sgt... this guy.


----------



## dapaterson (21 May 2013)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> I don't want to brag but I was promoted from Cpl to Sgt.
> 
> Mind you, it was a month after I had been demoted to Cpl FROM Sgt and I managed to get my decision overturned.
> 
> But still, Cpl to Sgt... this guy.



I think, strictly speaking, the action wasn't a promotion but a cancellation of a demotion.  Slightly different procedures.

And probably not the best way to do things...


----------



## Halifax Tar (21 May 2013)

DAA said:
			
		

> Not unless you are a Musician.....I believe that is the only occupation in the CF that jumps a rank.



Dental techs too maybe ?


----------



## GnyHwy (21 May 2013)

What about Geo Tech or Int?  Has there been any there?  I don't think they spend a lot of time at MCpl.


----------



## dapaterson (21 May 2013)

GnyHwy said:
			
		

> What about Geo Tech or Int?  Has there been any there?  I don't think they spend a lot of time at MCpl.



Those are caused by rank to rank inversions.  The Int Op structure wants more MCpls than Cpls, and more Sgts than MCpls.  Fewer WOs than Sgts, but mroe WOs than Cpl.  Thus, to keep the structure more or less filled, promotions come fast & furious at lower ranks.


----------



## George Wallace (21 May 2013)

GnyHwy said:
			
		

> What about Geo Tech or Int?  Has there been any there?  I don't think they spend a lot of time at MCpl.





			
				dapaterson said:
			
		

> Those are caused by rank to rank inversions.  The Int Op structure wants more MCpls than Cpls, and more Sgts than MCpls.  Fewer WOs than Sgts, but mroe WOs than Cpl.  Thus, to keep the structure more or less filled, promotions come fast & furious at lower ranks.



Depending on skill sets required, and more often whom these people may have to be briefing, you may find faster progression through the ranks of more competent members.  Although it would not be uncommon for a Geo Tech or INT OP Cpl to be briefing the CDS, you will find that at some of the lower levels of command, rank is important.  Some look at the rank, not the knowledge of the person briefing.  

We can also question why MPs are rapidly promoted to Cpl on completion of their training.  Someone, somewhere, at some time, had made the decision that a Cpl MP garnered more respect from people than a Pte MP did.  

I often wonder why the RMS Trade promotes people before they have qualifications. 

This discussion can go on forever.


----------



## GnyHwy (21 May 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I often wonder why the RMS Trade promotes people before they have qualifications.



I know of an RMS clerk promoted from Pte to MCpl on basic training graduation in Cornwallis, solely due to the fact the she knew how to use a computer.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (21 May 2013)

Despite MCpl being an appointment vice rank, it is still a promotion IAW CFAO 49-4.  So is Pte (B) to Pte (T) etc.


----------



## MedCorps (21 May 2013)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Dental techs too maybe ?



Nope, entry level for a Dent Tech is Cpl. 

MC


----------



## garb811 (21 May 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> We can also question why MPs are rapidly promoted to Cpl on completion of their training.  Someone, somewhere, at some time, had made the decision that a Cpl MP garnered more respect from people than a Pte MP did.



Really George, again? This is really stuck in your craw isn't it:



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> No.  This is because some brilliant mind at the top figured that his/her MP Ptes were not getting the 'respect' that they should as MPs so made the members who had the Trade Qualification instantly promoted Cpl.  Once upon a time a Cpl would have indicated that someone had some experience.  Now, a Cpl MP may or may not be experienced.  The logic as to how this gives them more 'respect' escapes me, and in fact has worked just the opposite.  Now I guess that brilliant mind will have to promote them all to Sgts.   >





			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> ...
> As I understand it the 'political logic' to bring about these 'instant Cpl's' was that someone in high places felt that MP's below the rank of Cpl/MCpl were not getting the 'respect' that a LEO should get in the military hierarchy and performance of their duties.  That was before Spec Pay was approved, if I recall correctly.
> ...



As was explained then, and remains the same now, it had absolutely nothing to do MP Ptes not getting respect, it was about using the pay scale of a Cpl as a recruiting incentive that was also tied into the requirement for a college diploma/spec pay.  Back in 2006 there were 18 trades that had the ability to promote their pers upon completion of Basic including those trades such as Veh Tech, Dental Tech, LCIS Tech and ATIS Tech...I suppose the whole point of the other 17 trades being able to offer that promotion as a recruiting incentive wasn't really about the money but rather about the lack of respect their Ptes were getting too, right? 

If you want to hate the promotion, fine, I'm there with you, but at least hate it for the right reason(s) and stop continuing to spread the lie that it is an attempt to gain respect.


----------



## PetawawaPete (11 Oct 2013)

This might be possible if it is decided the Army should revert to the old systems of ranks. The MCpl rank would be replaced by Lance Cpl with the next rank being Sgt.


----------



## GreenMarine (11 Oct 2013)

Lance Cpl is the rank lower than Cpl, however I see the opposite happening where they would add or change the current rank and promotion scales, end the Cpl For Life (CFL) stigma perhaps?

Vice versa we could go even go the other Way and chop some rank out, to try to simplify things.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (11 Oct 2013)

Removing MCpl and replacing with Lance Cpl and Cpl is "6 half and one dozen of the other".  Would serve no purpose other than to keep the base tailor busy and spend some tax dollars.


----------



## George Wallace (11 Oct 2013)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Removing MCpl and replacing with Lance Cpl and Cpl is "6 half and one dozen of the other".  Would serve no purpose other than to keep the base tailor busy and spend some tax dollars.



"Six of one; half dozen of the other".   ;D


----------



## George Wallace (11 Oct 2013)

GreenMarine said:
			
		

> .......... end the Cpl For Life (CFL) stigma perhaps?



You will never end that.  There will always be "Cpl for Life", "MCpl for Life", "Sgt for Life", and so on; in the Jnr, Snr and officer ranks.  They will always exist.  What is the most scary scenario is when people are promoted two levels above their level of competence.  Now that is a problem.  Would you really want a Sgt (as not to detract from this topic) who was barely competent as a Cpl?


----------



## Ludoc (11 Oct 2013)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Removing MCpl and replacing with Lance Cpl and Cpl is "6 half and one dozen of the other".  Would serve no purpose other than to keep the base tailor busy and spend some tax dollars.


*cough* Pips and Crowns *cough*


----------



## Pusser (12 Oct 2013)

garb811 said:
			
		

> Really George, again? This is really stuck in your craw isn't it:
> 
> As was explained then, and remains the same now, it had absolutely nothing to do MP Ptes not getting respect, it was about using the pay scale of a Cpl as a recruiting incentive that was also tied into the requirement for a college diploma/spec pay.  Back in 2006 there were 18 trades that had the ability to promote their pers upon completion of Basic including those trades such as Veh Tech, Dental Tech, LCIS Tech and ATIS Tech...I suppose the whole point of the other 17 trades being able to offer that promotion as a recruiting incentive wasn't really about the money but rather about the lack of respect their Ptes were getting too, right?
> 
> If you want to hate the promotion, fine, I'm there with you, but at least hate it for the right reason(s) and stop continuing to spread the lie that it is an attempt to gain respect.



Actually George has a valid point.  In one of my sources from WWII, it clearly states that there were no privates in the military police.  This meant that all MPs were at least lance corporals.  The reason being that as lance corporals, they were NCOs and so had more authority than privates.  I don't know whether all MPs were instantly appointed/promoted to lance corporal or whether one had to have another trade first and could only transfer upon reaching lance corporal. 

On another note, lance corporals are subordinate to corporals; therefore, presumably if we were to eliminate the master corporal appointment, then master corporals would become corporals (two chevrons) and corporals would become lance corporals (who traditionally wear one chevron).


----------



## Journeyman (12 Oct 2013)

_Whatever_ the underlying rationale, automatically promoting MPs to Cpl certainly cleared up that respect issue.


----------



## old fart (12 Oct 2013)

Pusser said:
			
		

> .....On another note, lance corporals are subordinate to corporals; therefore, presumably if we were to eliminate the master corporal appointment, then master corporals would become corporals (two chevrons) and corporals would become lance corporals (who traditionally wear one chevron).



As I have added before, in the Brit system at least, a Lance Corporal is a section 2IC with obviously Corporals the section commanders.

Whoever wrote the paragraph below for wikipedia spells it out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_corporal

"The Canadian Forces abolished the rank of lance corporal on their creation as a unified force in 1968. The rank of trained private equates to OR-3 and wears the single chevron, but has no command authority. In terms of actual authority, the current appointment of Master Corporal equates most directly to the pre-unification appointment of lance corporal as in both cases, this rank was granted to soldier second-in-command of an infantry section, for example. The current rank of Sergeant equates most directly to the pre-unification appointment of corporal."

In the UK Royal Engineers for instance, to become a Lance Corporal, a sapper (trained, senior private) needs to be selected for a Junior NCOs Cadre, pass it and on completion is then eligible for promotion.   

And on it goes, a Warrant Officer being equivalent to a S/Sgt.  

On the MP note, always funny to watch newly minted Brit MP Cpl's trying to be everything but the sprogs they where....particularly back in the 70s/80s....when it was not uncommon to have Privates nearing 22 years of service.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (12 Oct 2013)

Pusser said:
			
		

> In one of my sources from WWII, it clearly states that there were no privates in the military police.  This meant that all MPs were at least lance corporals.  The reason being that as lance corporals, they were NCOs and so had more authority than privates.  I don't know whether all MPs were instantly appointed/promoted to lance corporal or whether one had to have another trade first and could only transfer upon reaching lance corporal.



All Provosts were appointed L/Cpl on completion of Canadian Provost Corps training so that they had NCO status and thus authority to take into custody any soldier (including other NCOs regardless of rank) - they could not arrest officers, including warrant officers.  This was the same power as any other NCO regardless of corps.  Privates had no legal authority to order into confinement other privates, even ones seemingly junior to them.  From my understanding, WW2 era military policemen did not have the specially appointed  powers as "peace officers" that modern meatheads MPs have.  Respect had nothing to do with it.  They needed the rank in order to do their job according to the military law of the period.


----------



## Towards_the_gap (12 Oct 2013)

old fart said:
			
		

> when it was not uncommon to have Privates nearing 22 years of service.




[tangent] Ah yes, the mytical 22 yr sapper/private who, on the last day in the mob, are promoted to LCpl so as to avoid the government having to pay the RSM's pension due a soldier who never got promoted in 22 years!!! [ /tangent]


----------



## GreenMarine (15 Oct 2013)

old fart said:
			
		

> when it was not uncommon to have Privates nearing 22 years of service.



I almost love the thought being a Private for life, everything will be above the paygrade and one could slack off with maximum ignorance,

 however I like having some money in my pocket and the ability to pull what little rank I have when the young no hooks aren't behaving.


----------



## ronin medic (29 Jan 2014)

I've had some mixed messages at work so I'll throw it out.  If a member is promoted in march do that help or hurt their career in general?  I would have thought it would be good since this member has been filling a MCpl position as a Cpl for most of the year and I would assume a decent MCpl PER would be written. Thoughts?


----------



## lcis00110 (29 Jan 2014)

Depends on how a member has performed.  It'll be the first PER as a MCpl, and the promotion date should be noted.  The performance factor should not be changed if a member has been in the role of a MCpl position.  The potential factor towards the next rank however may take a little hit.  No matter though as it's a first PER in the new rank, and as such one can only climb from there and not drop.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (29 Jan 2014)

Just some (potential) UFI, for Reg Frce, ref is CFAO 49-4:

- for Seniority/EPZ, the newly minted Jack would have the same Seniority Date and EPZ for anyone promoted that year (01 Jan XXXX).  IMO, they are better off than the mbr who is promoted after 31 March, because they WILL have that first MCpl PER.  They did get promoted afterall, so they are doing things right (or at least "right enough").  

- while they make take a hit on the Potential side, it shouldn't be a huge deal as they won't EPZ for Sgt for 2 years anyways.  That gives them time to develop and grow in the MCpl/MS world towards Snr NCO.


----------



## Ostrozac (29 Jan 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Just some (potential) UFI, for Reg Frce, ref is CFAO 49-4:
> 
> - for Seniority/EPZ, the newly minted Jack would have the same Seniority Date and EPZ for anyone promoted that year (01 Jan XXXX).  IMO, they are better off than the mbr who is promoted after 31 March, because they WILL have that first MCpl PER.  They did get promoted afterall, so they are doing things right (or at least "right enough").
> 
> - while they make take a hit on the Potential side, it shouldn't be a huge deal as they won't EPZ for Sgt for 2 years anyways.  That gives them time to develop and grow in the MCpl/MS world towards Snr NCO.



Completely agree with Eye. Consider two members that are appointed MCpl out of the same merit board (in fall 2013). Member A is appointed 1 March 2014, Member B is appointed 1 May 2014. The seniority date for both is 1 Jan 2014. Both EPZ for Sergeant in 1 Jan 2016, and both, theoretically, could be seen by the merit board in fall 2015. 

Merit boards look at the last three annual PERs.

Member A has a Cpl PER for 2013, a MCpl PER for 2014, a MCpl PER for 2015.
Member B has a Cpl PER for 2013, a Cpl PER for 2014, and a MCcpl PER for 2015.

That's a clear advantage to Member A. Admitedly, this would be smoothed out over time if the trade in question isn't promoting quickly, but for trades that have rapid promotion, it's a major advantage to get that first PER in rank as soon as possible.


----------



## DAA (29 Jan 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> - while they make take a hit on the Potential side, it shouldn't be a huge deal as they won't EPZ for Sgt for 2 years anyways.  That gives them time to develop and grow in the MCpl/MS world towards Snr NCO.



Chances are they will take a hit in the scoring but CFPAS takes that into consideration.  See Chap 1, Art 108, which states,

"When an individual has been promoted, or for any cause has been reverted or has relinquished rank during the reporting period, it must be clearly indicated in Section 3 (Official Appointments/Duties) with the effective date. The rank to be used in Section 1 of the PER is the rank held by the individual at the end of the reporting period with exception of an AWSE rank (see sect 109(1)). The supervisor should comment on the individual's performance in both ranks (e.g. "As a MCpl her performance was exemplary and she is proving to be a good Sgt"). The assessment of performance and potential must be based on the rank held at the end of the reporting period even if a promotion or reversion occurred late in the reporting period."


----------



## Eye In The Sky (29 Jan 2014)

And, honestly, if someone JUST got their MCpl/MS, I'd like to think they are happy on the fact that they got promoted.  Getting a Developing MCpl is STILL a MCpl PER.  I'd take "Developing MCpl" over a Cpl PER any day.


----------



## PuckChaser (29 Jan 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> And, honestly, if someone JUST got their MCpl/MS, I'd like to think they are happy on the fact that they got promoted.  Getting a Developing MCpl is STILL a MCpl PER.  I'd take "Developing MCpl" over a Cpl PER any day.



Especially since a Cpl MOI PER (at 50%) is worth less points towards the next merit board than a MCpl developing.


----------



## ronin medic (30 Jan 2014)

Thank you all very much for your input.  I was concerned that a potential disservice could have accidentally been inflicted on members unintentionally.  It seems pretty unanimous that a promotion late in the year is beneficial.  Thanks again.


----------



## CountDC (31 Jan 2014)

As someone that fell into this situation - March appointment - I have to agree that receiving it in Mar was better than waiting until Apr as it did place me in the merit boarding earlier.  Supervisors should though advise the member of the impact when they do the PER brief.  When you are expecting a MOI Cpl PER and suddenly it is a developing MCpl it does throw you for a bit of a loop.


----------



## BetterL (17 Aug 2014)

I was just watching the recruiting video for HCA.  During the video it mentioned that after basic training you will receive your commission and a promotion to lieutenant.  I thought you'd get a promotion to 2nd lieutenant.  Is this promotion trade specific or was the video not accurate?


----------



## ModlrMike (17 Aug 2014)

Generally speaking you are commissioned as a 2Lt upon graduation from BMOQ. The promotion to Lt usually follows completion of occupation training. There may be some variation based on the plan one is commissioned under.


----------



## DAA (18 Aug 2014)

BetterL said:
			
		

> Is this promotion trade specific or was the video not accurate?



Promotion to Lt after completion of BMOQ is "occupation" specific.


----------



## youngtpr (9 Dec 2014)

Hi there I'm new here i just had a question. I have been on t-cat since Aug 2013. I've had two ankle surgeries and i have been due for promotion since Oct 2014. I have been given two stories by two different clerks. One clerk had told me that because my t-cat limits my ability to do a fit test i am still eligible for promotion because i meet all the other prereqs and that its up to the CO to say yay or nay. My clerk is holding my paper saying i can not get promoted to cpl due to the lack of a fit test. I'm just curious which to follow. 

Also i was told because my promotion isn't on hold due to diceplenary actions that i should receive back pay once i can complete a pt test is this true as well. 

Thanks in advance.


----------



## George Wallace (10 Dec 2014)

youngtpr said:
			
		

> ........... and i have been due for promotion since Oct 2014.




Sounds like a "Men's Christmas Dinner Thingie" to me.


----------



## youngtpr (10 Dec 2014)

a men's Christmas dinner thing? care to elaborate? by that do you mean being promoted at men's Christmas dinner? If so that's not going to happen as i have already been told they wont promote me until i complete a pt test. which if i had of known that i would have asked physio before my second surgery if they would allow me to attempt the pt test.


----------



## George Wallace (10 Dec 2014)

How many years have you been in, and what Trades Training have you achieved, to not be promoted Cpl?


----------



## Armymedic (10 Dec 2014)

You can not get promoted until you are fit to do so, with a completed pt test and a without a temporary medical category below your trade specifications.

Enjoy the back pay if your entitled to it.


----------



## youngtpr (10 Dec 2014)

George.Wallace my promotion date was oct 18th 2014 according to the clerk and my mprr.  I have 2 pcfs its just because I have been unable to perform a pt test since my injury


----------



## NSDreamer (14 Jan 2015)

Good Morning Everyone,

 I was wondering if anyone had ever heard of/was familiar with an accelerated promotion of a member on the NDHQ PRL list. My employing unit is looking to apply for accelerated promotion of one of our reserve members, however the NDHQ PRL List is saying that they do not consider accelerated promotions as required because they are not a formed unit and have no need for succession planning. This seems off to me as in DGMC 004/MAR 99 the relevant accelerated promotion document it clearly outlines that it is to recognize the member as outstanding, and is not relevant to the purpose of sucession planning.

In accordance with _MPCO 1004-0 – NATIONAL DEFENCEHEADQUARTERS AND MILITARY PERSONNEL COMMAND PRIMARY RESERVE LISTS - PERSONNEL MANAGEMENT_ their governing document, there does not seem to be a provision for accelerated promotion to recognize outstanding members. 

 Anyway, anyone with some relevant expertise feel free to chip in. I'm in the process of doing deeper research. To give further details the member has all, and beyond, quals required and is only lacking time in. They have 1 year and eleven months out of 3 years required for normal substantive promotion.


----------



## Haggis (14 Jan 2015)

I don't have access to the CFAOs at my civilian work so I cannot quote you chapter and verse.  Look at CFAO 49-5, Career Policy - Non-Commissioned Members - Primary Reserve


----------



## NSDreamer (14 Jan 2015)

Ah I should have mentionede member is a comissioned officer. Sorry, under the DGMC I listed it's promotion to Capt/LT(N) that we're seeking.

If I come up with an answer I'll leave the path here. Sometimes navigating pams and regulations makes me feel like a lawyer...

As a side note, interesting that there is a CFAO detailing Career policy for PRes NCMs and not Officers...


----------



## DAA (14 Jan 2015)

CFAO 49-12 (Prom Policy Offrs - PRes) in conjunction with MPCO 1004 as you have already mentioned.

The PRL is a wonderful world.  There are NO provisions for accelerated promotion while attached to the PRL.  An alternate solution that "might" be available to you, would be to try and staff an AWSE request but that too might get shot down as the member doesn't have the require TIR to be eligible for promotion.


----------



## dapaterson (14 Jan 2015)

Accelerated promotions apply only to NCMs in the Reserves. No such animal for Reserve officers.  CFAO 49-12 has no such provisions.


----------



## dapaterson (14 Jan 2015)

As DAA stated, Acting rank per paras 16 & 17 of CFAO 49-12 is another option.


----------



## OldSolduer (14 Jan 2015)

DAA said:
			
		

> CFAO 49-12 (Prom Policy Offrs - PRes) in conjunction with MPCO 1004 as you have already mentioned.
> 
> The PRL is a wonderful world.  There are NO provisions for accelerated promotion while attached to the PRL.  An alternate solution that "might" be available to you, would be to try and staff an AWSE request but that too might get shot down as the member doesn't have the require TIR to be eligible for promotion.



I think the answer from the PRL will be "its too hard, it takes a lot of work".


----------



## NSDreamer (14 Jan 2015)

Well I've tracked down one member of the reserves that was Accelerated promoted to Capt, I've emailed him and he replied he'll send references later this week. 

I'm of the opinion that Hamish is probably right, as I've managed to track down individuals who have been, it's probably a complicated process..


----------



## DAA (14 Jan 2015)

Still can't find anything of value on this topic.  The closest so far, is DGMC 004/99 but it looks as though this applies only to the Regular Force.


----------



## NSDreamer (14 Jan 2015)

DAA said:
			
		

> Still can't find anything of value on this topic.  The closest so far, is DGMC 004/99 but it looks as though this applies only to the Regular Force.



Agreed, that's what I've managed to track down as well. Yet as I said, I've found records in 5 Div of Pres officers being accelerated to the rank of Capt from Lt, so I'm getting them to send me the references they used for such.


----------



## dapaterson (14 Jan 2015)

Probably a Div order that ignored the governing CFAO and is therefore invalid. Would not be the first time LFAA marched to the beat of their own drummer.


----------



## NSDreamer (14 Jan 2015)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Probably a Div order that ignored the governing CFAO and is therefore invalid. Would not be the first time LFAA marched to the beat of their own drummer.



I'm suspecting that this is likely the case, but due diligence and what not.


----------



## youngtpr (15 Jan 2015)

still no answers. Is there any one who would be able to help me here?


----------



## DAA (15 Jan 2015)

youngtpr said:
			
		

> still no answers. Is there any one who would be able to help me here?



Sure, let me try......

CFAO 49-4, para 21 - Lowered Medical Categories -  A Pte who has a temporary medical category that is below the MOC requirement may be promoted to Cpl provided all other prerequisites have been met. In the case of a Pte who has a permanent medical category that precludes unrestricted employment, the member may, subject to NDHQ/DPCAOR approval, be promoted to Cpl providing all other promotion prerequisites have been met.

DAOD 5023-2 - Physical Fitness Program

When Required
A CF member who is not exempted from physical fitness evaluation requires valid evaluation results:
•	on the effective date of a promotion, in accordance with promotion policy in applicable CFAOs


*** - edited for content based on the additional guidance provided below by Occam


----------



## Occam (15 Jan 2015)

Para 6.


----------



## DAA (15 Jan 2015)

Occam said:
			
		

> Para 6.



 :goodpost:


So if I am reading Para 6. correctly, the OP "may" be promoted at the discretion of the CO.  Good info and thanks for finding that, I've never seen it before!


----------



## Occam (15 Jan 2015)

It seems a lot of people aren't aware of it - at a previous posting, I had a subordinate become a 7 year Pte, while I was waving that the whole time he was on MELs.  When I finally convinced someone to pick up the phone and call DGMC for verification, the young fella finally got his second hook and three years of back pay (at Spec 1).

The memo is in amongst the other policy documents at the DGMC "Promotions" page, same place where all the CMs post their trade briefs, etc.  - http://cmp-cpm.forces.mil.ca/dgmc/mc-cm/promotions/index-eng.asp


----------



## blackberet17 (16 Jan 2015)

You're not giving me much hope there, folks...;D


----------



## NSDreamer (16 Jan 2015)

blackberet17 said:
			
		

> You're not giving me much hope there, folks...;D



For...? Reality and hope rarely meet I find when it comes to buerocracy...beurocracy...Beu...paperwork.


----------



## blackberet17 (19 Jan 2015)

NSDreamer said:
			
		

> For...? Reality and hope rarely meet I find when it comes to buerocracy...beurocracy...Beu...paperwork red tape aka BS.



TFTFY

I meant hope of adv promo.


----------



## youngtpr (25 Jan 2015)

I am aware of that CFAO as i have quoted it to my clerk. My clerk will not send my paper work up the CoC for them to review it that is my issue. Thank you for that link it clears alot of stuff up. thatbeing said still the issue of my clerk holding my paper work instead of sending it up. Is there a chance you could send me a message to help me clarify some things?


----------



## dangerboy (25 Jan 2015)

youngtpr said:
			
		

> I am aware of that CFAO as i have quoted it to my clerk. My clerk will not send my paper work up the CoC for them to review it that is my issue. Thank you for that link it clears alot of stuff up. thatbeing said still the issue of my clerk holding my paper work instead of sending it up. Is there a chance you could send me a message to help me clarify some things?



Just wondering why you are dealing with your clerk, ask to talk to your Troop Commander or Troop WO and let them deal with the administration, it is their job.  I know it is easier said than done, but they can talk to the chain of command easier than you.


----------



## Jarnhamar (25 Jan 2015)

youngtpr said:
			
		

> I am aware of that CFAO as i have quoted it to my clerk. My clerk will not send my paper work up the CoC for them to review it that is my issue. Thank you for that link it clears alot of stuff up. thatbeing said still the issue of my clerk holding my paper work instead of sending it up. Is there a chance you could send me a message to help me clarify some things?



are you still on T-cat?


----------



## youngtpr (30 Jan 2015)

I am dealing with the clerk because I am currently on a tasking and we have a new chain.  I am not dealing with my clerk as you put It I had questions for her and that was the answers I was given. Yes I am still on t-cat


----------



## Good2Go (15 Apr 2015)

Youngsldr:  did you ever get this resolved?


----------



## DAA (15 Apr 2015)

Good2Go said:
			
		

> Youngsldr:  did you ever get this resolved?



You're kidding right?  And I make that comment, with nothing but good intentions.

If you think you can help Good2Go, PM me.  This has been nothing but a cruel and VERY disappointing nightmare that borders on disgust!


----------



## caocao (18 Jan 2017)

This one just came out this afternoon.

01  01  181340Z JAN  17  RR      UUUU                 CANFORGEN 012/17

           NDHQ CMPC OTTAWA
           CANFORGEN
UNCLAS CANFORGEN 012/17 CMP 009/17
SIC WAZ
BILINGUAL MESSAGE/MESSAGE BILINGUE
SUBJECT: DE-LINKING OF MEDICAL CONDITION FROM PROMOTION CRITERIA
REFS: A.  AFCX 13 JAN 17
B. QR AND O11.02, CONDITIONS GOVERNING PROMOTIONS
C. CFAO 11-6, COMMISSIONING AND PROMOTION POLICY - OFFICERS -
REGULAR FORCE
D. CFAO 49-4, CAREER POLICY - NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS - REGULAR
FORCE
E. CFAO 49-5, CAREER POLICY - NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBER - PRIMARY
RESERVE
F. CFAO 49-12, PROMOTION POLICY - OFFICERS - PRIMARY RESERVE
G. DAOD 5023-1, MINIMUM OPERATIONAL STANDARDS RELATED TO
UNIVERSALITY OF SERVICE
H. CANFORGEN 087/06, NEW DAODS ON UNIVERSALITY OF SERVICE, MINIMUM
OPERATIONAL STANDARDS RELATED TO UNIVERSALITY OF SERVICE, AND CF
PHYSICAL FITNESS PROGRAM
1. THE PURPOSE OF THIS CANFORGEN IS TO ANNOUNCE THAT CAF MEMBER
ASSIGNED A TEMPORARY OR PERMANENT MEDICAL CATEGORY, THAT IS LOWER
THAN APPLICABLE MINIMUM REQUIRED, WILL REMAIN ELIGIBLE FOR
PROMOTION, SUBJECT TO THE NEEDS OF THE SERVICE
2. A FULL-DAY ARMED FORCES COUNCIL EXECUTIVE (AFCX) MEETING FOCUSING
ON CAF PERSONNEL SUPPORT WAS HELD AT REF A. THE CDS AND L1S
EXPRESSED THEIR STRONG COMMITMENT TO FUNDAMENTALLY REVAMP THE WAY
ADMINISTRATION AND SUPPORT IS PROVIDED TO CAF MEMBERS AND THEIR
FAMILIES. MORE DETAILS ON A NUMBER OF RELATED INITIATIVES WILL BE
MADE AVAILABLE IN THE COMING MONTHS
3. CAF SENIOR LEADERSHIP IS CONCERNED WITH THE HEALTH OF ITS MEMBERS
AND WISHES TO INSTILL AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE MEMBERS WILL SEEK MEDICAL
SUPPORT WITHOUT STIGMA OR APPREHENSION OF IMPACTS ON PROMOTION. AS
WELL, THEIR PURPOSE IS TO RECOGNIZE MEMBERS’ MERIT AND THEIR FUTURE
CONTRIBUTION WHILE THEY REMAIN IN THE CAF. EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY,
CAF MEMBERS, WHO WOULD OTHERWISE BE PROMOTABLE, WILL BE PROMOTED AS
MERITED NOTWITHSTANDING THEIR TEMPORARY OR PERMANENT MEDICAL
CATEGORY, SUBJECT TO THE NEEDS OF THE SERVICE. MEMBERS MUST STILL
MEET ALL OTHER PROMOTION CRITERIA TO RECEIVE A SUBSTANTIVE
PROMOTION. IF A MEMBER LACKS ONE OR MORE OTHER PROMOTION
PREREQUISITES THE MEMBER MAY BE PROMOTED IN AN ACTING CAPACITY AS
PER CURRENT POLICY (REFS B TO F). MEMBER WILL HOWEVER BE REQUIRED TO
BE SUBSTANTIVE BEFORE BEING PROMOTED TO THE NEXT RANK
4. THERE MAY BE INSTANCES WHERE A MEDICAL CONDITION WILL ALSO
PREVENT A MEMBER FROM ACHIEVING OTHER PROMOTION PREREQUISITES, SUCH
AS ATTENDING A MANDATED CAREER COURSE, OR COMPLETING THE FORCE
EVALUATION. IN SUCH INSTANCES, SET PERIODS TO MEET CRITERIA WILL NO
LONGER BE IMPOSED ON MEMBER. HE/SHE WILL THEREFORE REMAIN PROMOTED
IN AN ACTING CAPACITY UNTIL ALL PREREQUISITES CAN BE MET. NOT
ATTENDING OR COMPLETING A MANDATED CAREER COURSE OR THE FORCE
EVALUATION DUE TO A MEDICAL CONDITION WILL NO LONGER RESULT IN A
REVERSION FROM ACTING RANK TO PREVIOUS SUBSTANTIVE RANK.
FURTHERMORE, MEMBERS PROMOTED TO AN ACTING RANK WHO ARE RETAINED
WILL NOW BE EMPLOYED AT THEIR ACTING RANK
5. THAT SAID, THE FORCE EVALUATION IS STILL A PREREQUISITE FOR
SUBSTANTIVE PROMOTION. NOTWITHSTANDING ELIGIBILITY FOR PROMOTION,
MEMBERS WHO ARE PERMANENTLY UNABLE TO MEET ONE OR MORE OF THE
MINIMUM OPERATIONAL STANDARDS RELATED TO THE UNIVERSALITY OF SERVICE
PRINCIPLE WILL BE RELEASED FROM THE CAF UNDER REF G.
6. A MEMBER’S POSTING AND APPOINTMENT AT THE NEXT RANK WILL TAKE
INTO ACCOUNT HIS OR HER EMPLOYMENT AND DEPLOYMENT LIMITATIONS, AS
DICTATED BY THE NEEDS OF THE SERVICE
7. THIS CHANGE IN POLICY TAKES EFFECT IMMEDIATELY, AND IS NOT
RETROACTIVE. TO RE-EMPHASIZE, THE OVERALL INTENT IS THAT A POTENTIAL
DENIAL OF PROMOTION SHOULD NO LONGER BE A BARRIER TO CARE. OVER THE
NEXT FEW MONTHS, MPC, THROUGH DGMC, WILL MONITOR THE EXECUTION OF
THIS INITIATIVE TO DETERMINE POTENTIAL IMPACTS AND ADJUSTMENTS THAT
COULD BE REQUIRED, AND WILL AMEND ACCORDINGLY AS NECESSARY. CAF
PERTAINING POLICIES, INCLUDING CANFORGEN AT REF H, WILL ALSO BE
FORMALLY AMENDED IN DUE COURSE. THIS ORDER SUPERSEDES OTHER ORDERS
OR DIRECTIVES TO THE EXTENT THAT THEY CONFLICT WITH DIRECTION IN
THIS CANFORGEN

END OF ENGLISH TEXT / LE TEXTE FRANCAIS SUIT


----------



## Nfld Sapper (18 Jan 2017)

Why does this thread come to mind Fed Ct: "Alberta soldier denied promotion due to PTSD should have case reviewed"


----------



## PuckChaser (18 Jan 2017)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Why does this thread come to mind Fed Ct: "Alberta soldier denied promotion due to PTSD should have case reviewed"



Comes to mind, but wouldn't change a thing for the guy. He's still acting lacking until retirement and reverts to Corporal because he couldn't complete the course.


----------



## ModlrMike (18 Jan 2017)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Comes to mind, but wouldn't change a thing for the guy. He's still acting lacking until retirement and reverts to Corporal because he couldn't complete the course.



As would happen for anyone else.

What this message appears to do is to remove the stigma if illness or injury from the promotion process. I wager there are a good many folks who are on TCat (pregnancy for example) who could, and should get promoted. They then still have to meet all other criteria just like the rest of us.


----------



## Gunner98 (19 Jan 2017)

And how many decades has it taken to understand that this situation (and stigma) has affected so many, such that thousands of people would not go for an annual physical/PHA.


----------



## armyvern (19 Jan 2017)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> As would happen for anyone else.
> 
> What this message appears to do is to remove the stigma if illness or injury from the promotion process. I wager there are a good many folks who are on TCat (pregnancy for example) who could, and should get promoted. They then still have to meet all other criteria just like the rest of us.



Pers on TCats for MATA are promotable while pregnant.  Have been since forever.


----------



## brihard (19 Jan 2017)

Phenomenal news. There will be wrinkles to iron out, but there's no reason someone on med cat for, say, PTSD that's being properly managed should have their career progression sunk. Proper MELs can manage most of the risk on this.


----------



## Lumber (19 Jan 2017)

Couple of questions:

1. Where is the reference that states "you must have a valid FORCE test in order to be promoted";
2. Where is the reference that states "you must have a valid MEDICAL in order to be promoted";
3. If someone is on a T6, but has not actually gone back to see the doctor, is their "medical" still "valid"? I.e. if it's been 2 years since their last full medical, but they were put on TCAT 12 months ago, and were supposed to go to the doctor every 6 months, but haven't, are they promotable?
4. If someone is put on a PCAT that has been sent to DMCA for an AR because they are of HIGH RISK of breaching UOS, are they promotable, or do you have to wait for the finding before you can promote him? (assuming D MED POL doesn't find they're in breach of UOS).


----------



## dapaterson (19 Jan 2017)

For the valid medical and fitness test requirements, see CANFORGEN 87/06.


----------



## CountDC (19 Jan 2017)

Lumber said:
			
		

> Couple of questions:
> 
> 1. Where is the reference that states "you must have a valid FORCE test in order to be promoted";
> 2. Where is the reference that states "you must have a valid MEDICAL in order to be promoted";
> ...



1 and 2 - promotion policies.
3. if you are placed on a TCat it stays until you go back.  They do not expire on their own.  The T6 is telling you when you have to go see the medics for an update which could be all clear, extend TCAT or change to PCAT.
4. in past you had to wait for AR/Mel to be resolved but reading this it appears that may be out the door as medical no longer ties up the promotion.


----------



## Lumber (19 Jan 2017)

CountDC said:
			
		

> 1 and 2 - promotion policies.
> 3. if you are placed on a TCat it stays until you go back.  They do not expire on their own.  The T6 is telling you when you have to go see the medics for an update which could be all clear, extend TCAT or change to PCAT.
> 4. in past you had to wait for AR/Mel to be resolved but reading this it appears that may be out the door as medical no longer ties up the promotion.





			
				dapaterson said:
			
		

> For the valid medical and fitness test requirements, see CANFORGEN 87/06.



Ok, which policies exactly? 

1. From CANFORGEN 087/06, (that dapaterson) it says about fit testing: "MEET THE MINIMUM OPERATIONAL STANDARDS RELATED TO UNIVERSALITY OF SERVICE AS SET OUT IN DAOD 5023-1 WHICH INCLUDES SUCCESSFUL COMPLETION OF THE APPLICABLE FITNESS STANDARD 

2. For medical, it's less clear. It says "MEET THE MINIMUM MEDICAL STANDARDS FOR THEIR OFFICER CLASSIFICATION IN ACCORDANCE A-MD-154-000/FP-000 MEDICAL STANDARDS FOR THE CANADIAN FORCES". So, it doesn't say "must have a valid and in date medical assessment complete." My rationalization would be that, if you haven't done a medical in 5 years, then you can't be considered to have met the minimum medical standards, because they have no proof to back it up. Requirement by inference rather than clear direction.

3. figured it out.

4. Para 5 of the CANFORGEN states "MEMBERS WHO ARE PERMANENTLY UNABLE TO MEET ONE OR MORE OF THE MINIMUM OPERATIONAL STANDARDS RELATED TO THE UNIVERSALITY OF SERVICEPRINCIPLE WILL BE RELEASED FROM THE CAF UNDER REF G." 

When you get a PCAT that the MO thinks is of high risk of breaching UOS, they tell you about your new PCAT send your file to DMCA for an AR. I haven't seen anything that says you can't get promoted if your are under AR.

So, if you can now get promoted if you have a PCAT that does not meet your MOS standards, and you could always get promoted if your are under an AR, then in this case, could you get promoted with a PCAT with a high risk of breaching UOS, until such a time as they determine that it _is_ in breach of UOS and give you the boot?


----------



## ModlrMike (19 Jan 2017)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Pers on TCats for MATA are promotable while pregnant.  Have been since forever.



I should have known that... bad example on my part.


----------



## RADOPSIGOPACCISOP (20 Jan 2017)

It's framed as a way to remove the stigma for people reporting PTSD and mental illness to encourage them to seek help without having their careers trashed.

What it will typically be used for is out of shape majors in Ottawa to get put on Tcat, be medically exempted from FORCE test and still enjoy career progression to out of shape LCols.


----------



## armyvern (20 Jan 2017)

Lumber said:
			
		

> When you get a PCAT that the MO thinks is of high risk of breaching UOS, they tell you about your new PCAT send your file to DMCA for an AR. I haven't seen anything that says you can't get promoted if your are under AR.
> 
> So, if you can now get promoted if you have a PCAT that does not meet your MOS standards, and you could always get promoted if your are under an AR, then in this case, could you get promoted with a PCAT with a high risk of breaching UOS, until such a time as they determine that it _is_ in breach of UOS and give you the boot?



Well, I can tell you that I hand walk our promotion files to the BHosp here at my location for signatures on the promotion paperwork.

In the section where the medical category is entered by the medical staff it is their current category - if valid - or pending recommended temp/perm medical category if an AR is underway.  They then choose the "Promotion Recommended" or "Promotion Not recommended" block as applicable and sign/date.  Every file that I have taken them (except for MATA) that has had a TCat/AR Review noted, they have chosen "Promotion NOT Recommended".

Apparently, that will change with this message as a TCat or AR doesn't matter any more.


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## Lumber (20 Jan 2017)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Every file that I have taken them (except for MATA) that has had a TCat/AR Review noted, they have chosen "Promotion NOT Recommended".
> 
> Apparently, that will change with this message as a TCat or AR doesn't matter any more.



The PCat doesn't matter... but does the AR?

Anyways, we submitted the request for promotion. We'll see what happens.


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## AleaIactaEst (20 Feb 2017)

I am hired as an armoured soldier, and I was wondering what I would be doing for work during the spaces between bmq, sq, and moc. 

As well I was wondering if I would be eligible to take courses outside of my designated trade. I am quite willing to do ten years as an armoured soldier, but I also appreciate the fact that the more experience and knowledge you have the better soldier you can be and a more reliable teammate you become. 


Apologies in advance, I was unable to find a similar thread in the search function or using google, but I'll certainly delete the thread if it's incorrectly placed or if I've overlooked a thread that answers these questions.

Thank you, and have a good day!


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## mariomike (20 Feb 2017)

AleaIactaEst said:
			
		

> I am hired as an armoured soldier, and I was wondering what I would be doing for work during the spaces between bmq, sq, and moc.



You may find these discussions helpful,

Armour
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?board=3.0

_As always,_  Recruiting is your most trusted source of information.


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## AleaIactaEst (21 Feb 2017)

mariomike said:
			
		

> You may find these discussions helpful,
> 
> Armour
> https://army.ca/forums/index.php?board=3.0
> ...



Thank you very much.


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## mariomike (21 Feb 2017)

AleaIactaEst said:
			
		

> Thank you very much.



You are welcome. Good luck.


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## xbowhntr (30 Jan 2018)

Good Day,

I am being told that there is a chance that i will be forced to defer a promotion  and not be posted due to trouble finding someone to fill my current position.

Anyone know the policy surrounding this?

Vr

Xbow


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## Piece of Cake (30 Jan 2018)

xbowhntr said:
			
		

> Good Day,
> 
> I am being told that there is a chance that i will be forced to defer a promotion  and not be posted due to trouble finding someone to fill my current position.
> 
> ...




May I ask what is your current rank?


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## xbowhntr (30 Jan 2018)

Sure, Capt.

I am just curious. I am not against staying in the position i am in for another year and deferring til Dec. 

Im on vacay for several weeks and have no dwan access or else i would just look it up.


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## Occam (30 Jan 2018)

Not sure if the officer side of the house works differently, but if you're skipped over (as in they promote above and below you on the merit list), your promotion is guaranteed for December of that year - you'll just be overranked in the position.  Or at least that's how it unfolded for me 10 or so years ago.


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## devil39 (31 Jan 2018)

I deferred promotion to LCol by a year to stay in a SOFCOM unit as the DCO.  

Don't think you can be forced to defer a promotion.  

I volunteered......probably stupidly deferred,  but I wouldn't do anything different in the same situation again.


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## SupersonicMax (31 Jan 2018)

You CoC and trade can elect not to post you for the subsequent APS, promote you 1 Dec, employ you, over-ranked for 6 months and post you two APS later (ie: picked up on the 2017 board, promoted 1 Dec 2018 posted APS 19.


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## PuckChaser (31 Jan 2018)

I don't remember seeing any policy that requires someone has to be promoted during APS. It sucks you're out a few months of pay but not much you can do.


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## LanVan (27 Sep 2018)

I’ve always been told that 2 years after QL3, we are eligible for QL5. Ive excelled within this time and held a 2IC position and often fill in for Shift IC when manning is tight. I’ve recieved excellent PDR and PER’s resulting in a ready and have Hit the numbers for promotion to the next rank.. 2 years have come and gone....another six months...nothing. I’ve been told that I’m not going on my 5’ s until spring 2019, a full year after eligibility. The reason given for he delay was that MP group training decides who is loaded, not the CM and that it is done alphabetically... nothing the unit can do. 
My subordinates will be qualified before me?
Can anyone out there confirm this process or recommend a course of action? 
I think it’s BS personally.


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## garb811 (27 Sep 2018)

You have always been told?  Did you actually look up the reference to find out if that is true or not for yourself? You probably should before you start feeling hard done by.

As for the CM not having input on the load into QL5 when you are a Cpl, why would they?  The CM's involvement with the Designated Training Authority is not required because you are already Acting Lack Corporal, and in any case, the CM is not the authority for promotion to Cpl, the CO is.  Even in the cases where pers are due to be promoted, the CM's involvement is to support the Training Authority on who should be prioritized for course loading, they are not the ones who do the actual load for our courses. Even for things like PLQ-A, the CM is simply the nominator, CTC is the Designated Training Authority who actually makes the decision on who will be loaded on the course, although in most cases that is a formality because MOSIDs are allocated "x" number of seats in a given course.

Like it or not, you are a AL/Cpl just like every other AL/Cpl in the Branch. There is no requirement at this time to give you preferential treatment on course loading you because you will have your QL5A in plenty of time to be promotable next APS.  At which time you are going to become AL/MCpl and then be back in the same position.

I get it, there is $$ involved, but that was why the decision was made to find an impartial system to load the people who have been graduating off of the super courses into the QL5s because everyone can't go at once.


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## LanVan (27 Sep 2018)

I am serving my 14th year in the CF, a remuster with PLQ. I started out at Cpl 4.... I am acting/ lacking nothing.
Yes, the 2 year eligibility IS fact.
Maybe I am just “butt hurt” for losing out on a year of Spec pay while being employed in a 2IC / IC position. who wouldn’t be?
I find it rediculous that the decision to be loaded on a career course is based on “alphabetical order” and not merit. 
If the units were able to express their requirements to the CM and looked out for the interests of their troops. Perhaphs there wouldn’t be people in this situation?
Merit for promotion or not, I can’t get a leaf without 5’s... even with PLQ.


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## RCDtpr (27 Sep 2018)

LanVan said:
			
		

> I am serving my 14th year in the CF, a remuster with PLQ. I started out at Cpl 4.... I am acting/ lacking nothing.
> Yes, the 2 year eligibility IS fact.
> Maybe I am just “butt hurt” for losing out on a year of Spec pay while being employed in a 2IC / IC position. who wouldn’t be?
> I find it rediculous that the decision to be loaded on a career course is based on “alphabetical order” and not merit.
> ...



And how do you know you’re “more deserving” than others who are loaded onto their 5s before you?  Unless that entire course comes from your det and you know for a fact you’re “more deserving” all I’ve seen here is nothing but arrogant speculation coming from you.

Also.....a QL3 calling other QL3’s his “subordinates” comes off as pretty ridiculous sounding.

You’ve got 2 years on the road and you’re whining about a leaf.

Relax, learn how to be the best patrolman you can, and quit acting so entitled.  You may have 14 years in the CAF but you don’t have 14 years in the branch....it owes you nothing.


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## LanVan (27 Sep 2018)

Thank you for your feedback.


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## brihard (28 Sep 2018)

ExRCDcpl said:
			
		

> Also.....a QL3 calling other QL3’s his “subordinates” comes off as pretty ridiculous sounding.



Why? Have we forgotten that Cpls are supposed to be NCOs? If a person has been appointed, by virtue of the authority vested in the chain of command, as a second in command of a section (shift, I guess) is it not accurate to describe those under his or her authority as 'subordinates'? As shift 2ic, if he were to issue an order to thsoe individuals, would it not be valid?


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## RedcapCrusader (28 Sep 2018)

Is the Branch still giving Spec Back Pay for members that do QL5 beyond their eligibility date, or has that gone way of the Dodo?

If not, then once you're done your 5's and your Spec Pay is initiated, you'll get Back Pay from the date of your eligibility to attend QL5 to the date of your completion of QL5. So it's nothing to panic over.

Unfortunately, just like the rest of the CAF, there will always be people ahead of you, that have waited longer than you.

Just remember, anytime anyone deploys or goes on MATA/PATA, or for whatever reason can't attend the course (minimum Manning can get people pulled off too), they go to the next name on the list.

6 month wait is not a huge deal, friendo.


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## LanVan (28 Sep 2018)

Hi LunchMeat,

No the branch doesn’t back pay in cases like this anymore. 
I hear what your saying however in most cases, deployment is the members choice or request. Same with Pata / Mata. The members are willingly passing up the opportunity for this course. It’s not the six month delay I’m upset about, it’s the 1 year delay. Not only does this have a significant financial impact, how am I supposed to accurately advise and mentor without the info and skills obtained on QL5? 
Should mismanaging or over committing  personnel, justify delaying ones career progression? 

Thanks for your input!


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## garb811 (28 Sep 2018)

LanVan said:
			
		

> I am serving my 14th year in the CF, a remuster with PLQ. I started out at Cpl 4.... I am acting/ lacking nothing.
> Yes, the 2 year eligibility IS fact.


Maybe next time you ask a question, put all of the pertinent information into it so the answer can be shaped accordingly. So, yes, in that instance, you are eligible for a QL5 but not entitled to it. 

I get where you are coming from, but you are not the only one in this situation.  You career progression is hardly being affected here though; you have been given the opportunity to work in supervisory positions, you have obviously done well and you're being promoted next APS.  Your career progression is going fine and I would argue, better than many.

Lunchmeat:  That practice was short lived and was only in the 2009-2011 timeframe or so.  It also was during the height of Afghanistan when people were being told they had to deploy, vice the current situation where people are given a choice of deployment and deferment of their QL5 or their QL5and ended when the Treasury Board notified the VCDS that he did not have the authority to authorize those waivers.


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## RedcapCrusader (28 Sep 2018)

garb811 said:
			
		

> Maybe next time you ask a question, put all of the pertinent information into it so the answer can be shaped accordingly. So, yes, in that instance, you are eligible for a QL5 but not entitled to it.
> 
> I get where you are coming from, but you are not the only one in this situation.  You career progression is hardly being affected here though; you have been given the opportunity to work in supervisory positions, you have obviously done well and you're being promoted next APS.  Your career progression is going fine and I would argue, better than many.
> 
> Lunchmeat:  That practice was short lived and was only in the 2009-2011 timeframe or so.  It also was during the height of Afghanistan when people were being told they had to deploy, vice the current situation where people are given a choice of deployment and deferment of their QL5 or their QL5and ended when the Treasury Board notified the VCDS that he did not have the authority to authorize those waivers.



Ah, thanks


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## blackice (21 Jun 2019)

Ref: https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/policies-standards/compensation-benefits-instructions/chapter-204-pay-policy-officers-ncms.html#sec-204-075 

_204.04(3) (Rate of pay on promotion) Subject to paragraphs (4) and (5), an officer or non-commissioned member shall be paid, on promotion to a higher rank, at the rate of pay established in the applicable CBI which is the greater of:

the basic rate of pay for the member's new rank and, if applicable, pay level and trade group; or

the rate of pay for the pay increment and, if applicable, pay level and trade group, for the member’s new rank that is nearest to, but at least equal to, the sum of the *rate of pay the member was receiving on the day before the effective date of the promotion * plus an amount equal to the rate of pay established for *pay increment 1 minus pay increment Basic in the member’s new rank*, but not to exceed the rate of pay for the highest pay increment in the new rank._
====================

In the policy above, is the effective date of the promotion the day before you enter the promotion zone or literally the day before you were promoted? 

Example: A 2Lt entering the promotion zone 5 months ago without being promoted would see their pay increasing to PI 2 at $4774. When they are promoted 5 months later, would they go to Lt PI 3 at $5202 with their pay the day before being promoted being 2Lt PI 2 or the pay before they entered the promotion zone of 2Lt PI 1.

The math
=========

$4774 + (Lt PI 1 - Lt Basic ) = New Pay
$4774 + ($4843 - $4488) = $5129 

$5129 is closest to $5202 (Lt PI 3) than $5021 (Lt PI 2).

Thank you.


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## Old EO Tech (23 Jun 2019)

blackice said:
			
		

> Ref: https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/policies-standards/compensation-benefits-instructions/chapter-204-pay-policy-officers-ncms.html#sec-204-075
> 
> _204.04(3) (Rate of pay on promotion) Subject to paragraphs (4) and (5), an officer or non-commissioned member shall be paid, on promotion to a higher rank, at the rate of pay established in the applicable CBI which is the greater of:
> 
> ...



I'm doing this scenario right now, promoted from CWO To Capt, it is the day before your actual promotion date on your message.  EPZ is just a date that allows you to be promoted with fewer conditions.  The promotion date on your promotion message is what is used to determine your rate of pay in para 2, basically you must get a full incentive on promotion, if the closest pay incentive doesn't get you the difference between Lt0 and LT1 then you are bumped to the next incentive.

Cheers


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## secondchance (10 Sep 2019)

captloadie said:
			
		

> Having gone through the same process, I can give you my experience. All my EPZs were based off the date of the completion of my phase training. I completed Phase IV Log in Oct 00, then I was promoted to LT. I was promoted Capt in 02, the usual mandatory 2 years in rank as an LT. However, I did my phase training back to back, and there was no time awaiting training. Normally, you are only credited with the time you have awaited training, if it was considered excessive and at not fault of the member. However, when it is a COT due to failure, we aren't given much grace. You really need to consult the new regs on this, as they have changed/been reworded since my COT.


Your experience is  for people who didn't have VOT or COT. 
You are right about 2 years being Lt .
But people with COT like me , we got new EZP in our COT message.

Sent from my NX591J using Tapatalk


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## international4455 (25 Sep 2019)

Hi Guys how does the promotion system in the forces work for NCM's ? how far can they go ? is their a special quota for them in the officers training ? Do foot soldiers ( infantry soldiers etc ) make it to officers through step by step promotions ?


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## BDTyre (25 Sep 2019)

There are two separate streams:

NCM which goes from Private to Chief Warrant Officer
Officer which goes from Officer Cadet to General

Most will never reach the top ranks - it's just a matter of skill, career progression and dedication. Most reserve officers won't make it past LCol as you can only do so much as a part-timer and most of the jobs Colonel and above likely require full time.

CWO would usually see you being a Regimental (or Wing or Brigade, etc., etc.) Sergeant Major and normally by this point you would be close to retirement age. There is the option if you still have a few years left after being and RSM of commissioning into the officer corps as a Captain. 

Can you go between? Yes. I know of a few Corporals and Master Corporals who have successfully become 2LTs, either in a different trade or  branch or in the same unit. Can you go from an officer to an NCM? Yes, but it is not as common (though I do know of one currently trying to do just that).

There are different responsibilities and expectations with each role. This is just a very brief overview and I'm sure others here can provide much more detail.


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## mariomike (25 Sep 2019)

humblesoldier said:
			
		

> how does the promotion system in the forces work for NCM's ? how far can they go ? is their a special quota for them in the officers training ? Do foot soldiers ( infantry soldiers etc ) make it to officers through step by step promotions ?



For reference to the discussion,

NCM to Officer ( merged ) 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/45209.25.html
3 pages.

Worth achieving higher NCM rank before going officer?
https://army.ca/forums/threads/87609.0
3 pages.

Promotions
https://www.google.com/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&sxsrf=ACYBGNT7OyQTg4zYirsIGI_Uj3mowRrFew%3A1569432387646&ei=Q6OLXbz0JquQ_QbbrLNw&q=site%3Aarmy.ca+promotion&oq=site%3Aarmy.ca+promotion&gs_l=psy-ab.3...1868.1868..2753...0.2..0.95.95.1......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71.1cYFgZkW2vk&ved=0ahUKEwj8odufv-zkAhUrSN8KHVvWDA4Q4dUDCAo&uact=5#spf=1569432392569


Career Progression
https://www.google.com/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&sxsrf=ACYBGNQnNNQCDvYUR_LD155fPQCYMIvLUQ%3A1569432240196&ei=sKKLXcm_C-uI_QaEmYWYDw&q=site%3Aarmy.ca+%22career+progression%22&oq=site%3Aarmy.ca+%22career+progression%22&gs_l=psy-ab.12...13210.15958..18249...0.0..0.94.180.2......0....1..gws-wiz.VBNbZ91QSIM&ved=0ahUKEwjJ17PZvuzkAhVrRN8KHYRMAfMQ4dUDCAo#spf=1569432260647

For Reservists,

Reserve NCM to Reserve Officer  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/105901.0
2 pages.


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## stoker dave (25 Sep 2019)

I would like to add that another variable that affects promotion is the number of people at one particular level and the number of available spots at the next level.  

I was part of a large recruiting drive for stokers.  Someone looked in their crystal ball and said that in 10 years there would be a need for a huge number.  All through my training I was with a really large group.  Well, ten years later the anticipated demand never occurred and suddenly there were far more trained people than DND considered necessary.  There was very little opportunity for promotion.  Indeed, there was a "force reduction program" to encourage people to leave.  

I left (the lack of promotion opportunities was just one reason). 

So this type of situation, which is entirely beyond your control, can occur and, if it does, significantly impacts your career aspirations.


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