# Lead, Please, Prime Minister



## ruxted (28 Jun 2007)

Link to original article


Lead, Please, Prime Minister

Prime Minister Harper is quoted as saying that he wants consensus from Canadians before he will ask Parliament to extend the current Afghan mission beyond Feb 2009.

The Ruxted Group applauds the PM for both insisting that Parliament – the House of Commons – agree to major military operations, and asking Canadians themselves to consider the merits of this mission and guide their elected representatives.  

Regardless of the common sense and fundamental democratic ideals satisfied by this initiative what is lacking is true leadership.  In saying “I would hope the view of Canadians is not simply to abandon Afghanistan” without actively persuading the people of Canada that his preferred course of action is right, good and proper the Prime Minister has effectively abdicated his responsibility to lead and along with it, his ability to convince Canadians that their troops are in Afghanistan are fighting the good fight for the right reasons.

The Prime Minister needs to bring the choices before us into stark relief.  The issue is not just the mission in Afghanistan, though that is the public face of this crisis.  It is also an articulation of a national vision and Canada's place in a rapidly polarizing world.  This government has talked at length about how this country used to punch above its weight, and has complained just as loudly about how previous Liberal governments have squandered Canada's reputation on the world stage, yet here is the Prime Minister calling vaguely for a consensus without articulating his ideas for a rational, moral and achievable alternative to the ideological and political divides that face the nation today.

The Prime Minister needs to ‘sell’ Canada’s emerging lead role and the current mission to Canadians, especially to Québecers.  This is a theme which The Ruxted Group has visited over and over and over again.  In 2006, when he persuaded a reluctant parliament to approve an extension of the mission until early 2009, Prime Minister Harper appeared interested only in embarrassing the Liberal opposition.   He offered Canadians little in the way of solid reasons ‘why’ – rather he threatened a weak and divided opposition with a snap election.  That tactic, although it served the purpose of whipping the opposition into line, was never good enough for Canadians and only distracted from the very real, important and noble reasons that their troops are killing and being killed in Afghanistan; the healing, reconstruction, and development desired by all cannot proceed without the sacrifices inherent in providing security. 

We are extremely disappointed (but not all that surprised) at the fact that Prime Minister Harper is doing exactly what he accuses his opponents of doing: playing political games, and seeking to wring the maximum partisan political advantage out of the situation in Afghanistan.  It is time for Prime Minister Harper to lead the country.  As we said at the start, the issue is not just the mission in Afghanistan it is about Canada’s role in the world – the leadership role Prime Minister Harper says is his government’s objective.  Canada needs a coherent foreign policy and Canadians need direct, honest political leadership during these hard times, we do not need more of the same on both these fronts, which is exactly what Mr Harper offered up this week.

By articulating a clear vision of Canada's goals in Afghanistan and how we intend to operate in the future, free of political posturing and spin, Prime Minister Harper may develop the consensus among Canadians he desires, and provide us with a vision for Canada in the 21st century world.  There is an old military maxim: Lead, follow or get out of the way!  

Lead, please, Prime Minister.


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## Cdn Blackshirt (28 Jun 2007)

I think Harper is a bright guy between his ears.

That being said, I think he has amongst the most incompetent communications strategies I have seen anywhere, demonstrated by an entity, at any time.


Matthew.


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## Edward Campbell (28 Jun 2007)

Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> I think Harper is a bright guy between his ears.
> 
> That being said, I think he has amongst the most incompetent communications strategies I have seen anywhere, demonstrated by an entity, at any time.
> 
> ...



But, on this and other issues, is he *leading* the country?  Or is he following the polls?

If he's not leading then does it matter if he's smart?


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P.S.  As I have said before, I'm a paid up, card carrying Conservative; that doesn't mean I check my brains and opinions at the door.


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## KevinB (28 Jun 2007)

I must say I fully agree with Ruxted -- one of the big complains with Mr Dithers, was that he would never make a decision with out firmly sounding out public opinion -- that not leadership.  I expected a lot more from the Conservative gov't -- despite being a Minority -- they NEED to lead -- the PM should be willing to fall on his sword over this issue, since we have been expending a great deal of BLOOD and money to get the Afghan gov't to where it is now.  Failing this, it will show (well me for one, a paid up card carrying member of the CPC, and no doubt others) that the value we expected from them, when we cats our votes for them, where all in naught.


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## slowmode (28 Jun 2007)

There comes to be a difference between leading a country properly and following the polls. I think so far Harper is doing a great job compared to our Previous leader. A leader to me is someone who will make choices for the country without asking the canadian people. We elected Harper to be our leader, we elected him to make decisions for us. THats the reason hes the leader of the Tories. Now , I Can respect him a lot for wanting to speak with parliament and see the polls on certain issues. This shows he is willing to hear the Canadian People and their issues.


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## Kiwi99 (28 Jun 2007)

It is sad to read the news these days, waht with all the political crap about pulling out of Afgahnistan in 2009.  Popular opinion is against the war, so what.  The way that this new policy on Afghanistan is playing out is going to kill the Canadian Army.  Who wants to be part of an organisation that is'nt allowed to carry out it's primary purpose.  The people of Canada do not want us to go to war, nor do the opposition parties.  I guess that means we no longer have to go on exercise, as we have nothing to train for.  Not allowed to fight a war, why train for warfighting?  This country and Government should be ashamed of themselves.  A complete and utter emabarresment!!!


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## Boxkicker (28 Jun 2007)

Lets face it the PM is damned if he does and damned if he does not. The media has crucified him for everything. Lets face fact he has paid the price for the policies of the Liberals. Why was it that this was never an issue when those bunch of crooks were in power or the so called detainee issue.
  Since day one the media of this country has been trying to get the conseratives un-elected.


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## Edward Campbell (28 Jun 2007)

Boxkicker said:
			
		

> Lets face it the PM is damned if he does and damned if he does not. The media has crucified him for everything. *Lets face fact he has paid the price for the policies of the Liberals.* Why was it that this was never an issue when those bunch of crooks were in power or the so called detainee issue.
> Since day one the media of this country has been trying to get the conseratives un-elected.



Why, then didn't he enunciate new, clear policies?

Remember, now, I'm a Conservative, but where are the non-Liberal policies?  Where is the difference on foreign and defence policy between Harper and Martin?  Martin was buying new kit - maybe not exactly the same new kit as the Tories are buying but much needed new kit, all the same.  Martin started a foreign policy review.  If Harper is being crucified for Liberal policies it's because he kept applying them.


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## armyvern (28 Jun 2007)

Oh so true.

But the public wants us to become, once again, those traditional "Peacekeepers" wearing the baby blue berets with no risk of offending anyone's sensibilities; least of all those who'd sit back here in their warm, cozy little lives keeping their hands clean and in total denial of the fact that "Peacekeeping" is NOT riskless and politics-free.

How soon the Canadian public forgets that those idyllic Peacekeeping missions have cost the lives of 116 Canadian soldiers and 3 civilian employees. Those fallen were honoured with the very same repatriation ceremonies as our fallen from Afghanistan. Perhaps the public just missed it because the MSM didn't claw over each other to get in and film those solemn ceremonies for broadcast to the masses, but I guess that may have tarnished that good Peaceful Baby Blue Canadian International Halo image they all like to claim as their own.

Wake up Canada!! 

Learn your history, and most of all ... be damn proud of it. You have some pretty fine soldiers acting as your ambassadors to the world both in Peacetime and in time of War, as has always been the case.


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## Boxkicker (28 Jun 2007)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Why, then didn't he enunciate new, clear policies?
> 
> Remember, now, I'm a Conservative, but where are the non-Liberal policies?  Where is the difference on foreign and defence policy between Harper and Martin?  Martin was buying new kit - maybe not exactly the same new kit as the Tories are buying but much needed new kit, all the same.  Martin started a foreign policy review.  If Harper is being crucified for Liberal policies it's because he kept applying them.



 Pretty simple on some things to me, when it comes to new policies if it ain't broke don't fix it. Why meddle with something if it works.   

  When it comes to some of the new kit that martin was going to buy it would have first been studied to death in committee. Instead we have a PM that says we need it now. I do not believe that we would have ever seen any of that new kit the Liberals said they would look at.


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## armyvern (28 Jun 2007)

Boxkicker said:
			
		

> Pretty simple on some things to me, when it comes to new policies if it ain't broke don't fix it. Why meddle with something if it works.
> 
> When it comes to some of the new kit that martin was going to buy it would have first been studied to death in committee. Instead we have a PM that says we need it now. I do not believe that we would have ever seen any of that new kit the Liberals said they would look at.



There were problems with the policies ... that's why Harper is in power with his fellow Conservatives now. 

Yep, he fast-tracked operational kit that we needed desperately ... we are fighting and dying after all; it's the least they could do. Now, as Ruxted has said below ... when are they going to start TALKING about and defending this mission to the Canadian public?? The sound of their silence is catching up with them...just look at the polls.

Good, bad, pretty, or ugly, the public likes to be informed of what exactly is going on when Canadian Soldiers are dying ... when they hear nothing from the elected *Leader of Canada * on that face ... they believe what they are told, usually quite willingly, by the MSM and the opposition because no-one is stepping up to tell them the difference.

That stepping-up is usually called leadership.


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## Pikache (28 Jun 2007)

If Harper really believes in the mission, he'd risk his political career and make this the #1 issue on the political agenda and risk an election over it.

I think Harper is gradually trying to change the mind of the Canadians, but the blowback from certain stupid things the Conservatives have said, and Harper's fumbling of how to actually talk to the Canadians about this subject while the Libs and the NDP have fired rhetoric that appeases the avg joe Canadian and now, I think unless radical change of tactics for Conservatives happen, we are going to lose public support for the mission.

Personally, I'm in favour putting the Afghan mission to a public referendum. If Canadians do not have the balls to face up to all those principles that Canada supposedly stand for, I'd rather have it done publically so that every joe Canadian must realize what is happening.

And announce to the world too.


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## Boxkicker (28 Jun 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> There were problems with the policies ... that's why Harper is in power with his fellow Conservatives now.



  I am not saying that were not problems with policies. But how many policies needed to be sorted out and how many did not. In the department we work for it has been one problem after another. 
  First it was that the head shed had to get us new kit, aircraft, armor some big expensive new pieces of desperately needed equipment. The problems that we have faced have been all created by the Liberals. But the PM and current MND have paid the price for it. It is the face of hypocrisy at the utmost that all the current problems being faced bye this government was caused by the Liberals, when it comes to the military.   
  It bothers me that for the media it was all well and good when it was the Liberals putting the shaft to us,it never created any sort of political fire storm. Even after the MND would say well this was done under the previous government, but we will fix it. the media still made the Liberals and NDP,come off smelling like a rose.
 i do agree that there has been bad communication though coming from the government, when it comes to the mission. I would love for the media to actually pick up on some of the fuzzy friendly things being done as well as the government. That might change a few minds.


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## rormson (29 Jun 2007)

With all respect, I can't agree with the editorial. Harper is a leader - - period. He is also smart enough to know that to continue to be a leader in this country he can't ignore the reality of the significant numbers of left-leaning idiot voters who don't understand the military, its purpose, and history. For good or ill that will require a vote on the mission. We do live in a democracy.

Tell me what other PM in recent times has accomplished as much as Harper, in as short a time and with a minority government. He's a balls forward leader and has pushed the other parties in the House of Commons to the wall. Be careful when challenging his character as a leader.  

CHIMO


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## KevinB (29 Jun 2007)

While I like Harper - it does not mean I have to go thru life with blinders on.  Sit back and think that since Afghan support was intially of 75%, heck even pre Iraq war we had a 55% approval for going there.  The issue is the PM's officer has not properly lead the public into the hows and why's of the war.
  And dont go blaming left leaning people -- you think ANY one of them really would want Afghan to go back under the Taliban?  The left is one of the foremost supporters of womens, gays and every other minority groups rights -- the fact is most are too stupid to have an opinion and beleive rhetoric from the OPFOR Leaders in Parliament -- Canada needs to get on the ball, and sell the war.


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## Edward Campbell (29 Jun 2007)

RGO said:
			
		

> With all respect, I can't agree with the editorial. Harper is a leader - - period. He is also smart enough to know that to continue to be a leader in this country he can't ignore the reality of the significant numbers of left-leaning idiot voters who don't understand the military, its purpose, and history. For good or ill that will require a vote on the mission. We do live in a democracy.
> 
> Tell me what other PM in recent times has accomplished as much as Harper, in as short a time and with a minority government. He's a balls forward leader and has pushed the other parties in the House of Commons to the wall. Be careful when challenging his character as a leader.
> 
> CHIMO



He may well *be* a leader, but - in my not at all humble opinion - if he is he's not acting like one.  He's acting like a cheap ward heeler, sort of like a Jean Chrétien but able speak English and French.

I understand, and, as a card carrying Conservative I accept, that the *political imperative* is to win a majority government, preferably two in a row.  That does not alter the fact that he is *NOT* leading the country in the right direction – hell’s bells, he’s not leading it in any direction – on foreign policy in general and Afghanistan in particular.  Right now he is hemming and hawing to soothe nervous, timorous, changeable Québec voters and, in the process, he is aiding and abetting what Infidel 6 correctly calls the OPFOR in Parliament.

Most of us are or were military people; many of us hold or have held leadership positions.  Those who do/have understand that leading, especially when the mission is difficult and unpopular, is not easy.  We, some of us anyway, have some sympathy with PM Harper’s position – I do.  But my sympathy does not alter the fact that he’s NOT leading, he’s following. 

QED


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## GAP (29 Jun 2007)

Nobody is denigrating Harper, simply pointing out that he's not doing what we expect him to do....lead. 

As long as there was an identified agenda he was on top of the pile....excellent feedback...now, he's doing nothing definitive, as least as far as the Canadian public is concerned, so they (the public) are listening to the opposition, cause that's who's talking.


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## rormson (1 Jul 2007)

E.R. Campbell: You are comparing Harper to Chrétien? Are you for real? 

*Edited for tone
Army.ca Staff


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## PeptoBismarck (1 Jul 2007)

Well, I guess this all goes to show: the Canadian public isn't ready for what's coming for them. If we think that we can live safely and securely forever, then we'll be all the sorrier when everything goes to sh@t. I mean, at what point IS our military's primary role to wage war? When the enemy is on the footstep? through the door? in our bedroom? I can't even begin to understand the self destructive stupidity of the common layman. Meanwhile, the government continues to drag this once great nation down the death spiral with one idiotic program after another. I mean, there was a time in north america (and i'll admit that this is mostly down south), and to a large degree there still is (http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/2nd_Amend/crime_rate_plummets.htm), when the very THOUGHT of the government disarming the populace was sacrilege. Honestly, what reason other than fear of being overthrown is there for the government to take peoples guns away? And to top it all off, the people actually ASKED for it. This is where a certain Star Wars quote (I know, I know...) begins very illustrative: "So this is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause." ~Padme

I know I'm young, and  inexperienced. And I know that replies to this post will be the same sort of "Well, we live in a liberal democracy blah blah" but please, Canada, for the good of OUR grandchildren, we gotta smarten up. I want a FREE Canada, not an Islamic state, not a Communist regime, not a socialists paradise. Of course all this is useless rhetoric, at most a trifle of food for thought...


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## Edward Campbell (8 Jul 2007)

Here, reproduced from today's _Ottawa Citizen_ under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act, is an article dealing with the topic at hand:

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=416b2b44-ed72-4bf6-88e1-2dd1f6953229



> Tories soften stance on Afghan mission extension
> 
> *Jason Fekete, CanWest News Service*
> Published: Saturday, July 07, 2007
> ...



This seems to bear out the thrust of Ruxted's view: Prime Minister Harper is, as politically he probably must, putting political expediency – re-election – ahead of principle and the national interest.

So, RGO just how does he differ from Prime Minister Chrétien?  Isn't that precisely *what* Chrétien did and isn't that exactly *why* he did it?


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## rormson (8 Jul 2007)

ER Campbell,

For starters, here's how he's not at all like Chrétien:

- he has never referred to the CF as a bunch of "Boy Scouts"
- he has not cancelled procurement contracts for badly needed military hardware out of political spite - - recall what Chrétien did with the EH101 deal 
- he has actually visited out troops in theatre and shown some long overdue support to Canada's military
- he's not the leader of a pollitically-corrupt party

You and the Ruxted folks can have fun juding the man's leadership on one issue if you like, but I think it's rediculous to compare him to Jean Chrétien.


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## Edward Campbell (8 Jul 2007)

RGO said:
			
		

> ... I think it's rediculous to compare him to Jean Chrétien.



But:



			
				E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> ... how does he differ from Prime Minister Chrétien?  Isn't that [changing positions, even supposedly *firm* positions]  precisely *what* Chrétien did and isn't that exactly *why* [to win (re)lection]  he did it?



I'm not arguing the political logic or the relative honesty of the two men.

Ruxted invited the PM to *lead*, the presumption, I suppose, being that he's stopped leading and started playing politics with Canadian soldiers in action.  I - a card carrying Conservative and a regular contributor to the party - remain firmly on Ruxted's side on this.  The fact that I'm a partisan Conservative does not ,make me some sort of mindless automaton and certainly not a sycophant.


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## McG (8 Jul 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> But the public wants us to become, once again, those traditional "Peacekeepers" wearing the baby blue berets with no risk of offending anyone's sensibilities;


I think Ruxted did a good job of addressing that hypocrisy here: http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/63566.0.html
How could we claim to be "peacekeepers" and the "doers of the right thing" if we are willing to abandon the Afghans? 



			
				Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> ...  I think he has amongst the most incompetent communications strategies I have seen anywhere ... at any time.


I tend to agree.  I also think that Foreign Affairs is failing in its communications duties.  It should be that minister who is spreading the message to Canadians about why we are there, what we aim to achieve.  There is plenty of communications on how we intend to fight the enemy, but the silence related to reconstruction is deafening.  This silence is not because we are doing nothing.  This silence is not because reconstruction is unimportant (quite the  opposite; reconstruction is the most important).  The silence is because DFAIT has failed in its communication strategy.



			
				RGO said:
			
		

> ... here's how he's not at all like Chrétien:
> ...
> - he has actually visited out troops in theatre and shown some long overdue support to Canada's military


I seem to recall a backward helmet photo that suggests otherwise.  Maybe you are thinking of Mr Martin.



			
				RGO said:
			
		

> Harper is a leader - - period. He is also smart enough to know that to continue to be a leader in this country he can't ignore the reality of the significant numbers of left-leaning idiot voters who don't understand the military, its purpose, and history. For good or ill that will require a vote on the mission. We do live in a democracy.


There is a difference between simply holding on to the nation's top leadership position & leading while in that position.  A leader would take the time to explain why certain sacrifices should be made, and a leader would show how the same sacrifices are in keeping with Canadian ideals.  Making popular decisions may be part of the equation, but communicating the dynamics of important decisions to the public is just as important.  Where is the communication?


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## Old Sweat (8 Jul 2007)

Let me preface my comments by stating that, like Edward, I am a member of and a contributor to the Conservative Party of Canada.

Political leadership is not following popular opinion, although one would be hard-pressed to find examples to prove this in recent Canadian history. Perhaps the PM has a strategic goal and plan other than to win the most seats in the next election, if so, his opsec is outstanding. Perhaps his plan is to allow the other leaders to trap themselves in a web of their own weaving. I don't know. 
What I do know is that leadership is a visible and personal thing and it depends very much on force of personality. 

In May 1940 there was a large segment of the British ruling classes in Cabinet, in Parliament and the civil service who were convinced that the only possible course of action was a negotiated peace. Indeed the Germans were eager to negotiate and discreet overtures were being made by both sides. Winston Churchill overcame this opposition to continuing the war by argument, by bullheadedness amd by sheer force of personality, and the rest, as they say, is history.

While we are not yet in the position the pre-Dunkirk British were in, a peaceful future free from attack is by no means secure. We need leadership so that we may recognize our peril and accept the burden of maintaining our freedom. That leadership is not displayed by reading the polls or playing gotcha politics with the opposition.


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## Hunteroffortune (9 Jul 2007)

All excellent points. One thing noone has mentioned is that the media edits the news we see, reconstruction isn't sexy, smiling Afghans aren't interesting, and making PM Harpers comments into something they really aren't, is an art. So I think they should use their own media center to get their message out, put it on youtube, people will see it. 

Something I noticed last year at Klondike Days (CapitalEx) was the most popular site with my 2 boys was the military station. They loved the tanks, and I enjoyed talking to some troops who had been to Afghanistan. 

The point I am making is that the military can help get the message out. Most people don't get to talk to a soldier, when they do, it makes a big difference. Face to face is best. Have some training exercises in towns that don't have a base close by, let people see you, it makes you real, it makes the mission real, and it makes those people more connected to that mission. 

So, get some people out into malls across Canada, selling those yellow car magnets, connect with the average Canadian,  once they have a face to put to the "troops", once they know the troops support the mission, support will go up! Next time you are thinking of having a practice exercise, take it off base, the more people see you, the more they identify with you, and therefore the mission. Don't hide on base.


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## aesop081 (9 Jul 2007)

Hunteroffortune said:
			
		

> take it off base, ....................... Don't hide on base.



You mean " soldiers with guns.....in our cities....in Canada" ?

 ;D


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## Hunteroffortune (9 Jul 2007)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> You mean " soldiers with guns.....in our cities....in Canada" ?
> 
> ;D



Yup, that's exactly what I mean!!  Maybe you can "scare" them into supporting the mission.   ;D


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## Edward Campbell (12 Jul 2007)

Here, reproduced from today’s _Globe and Mail_ under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act, is political _insider_ Norman Spector’s ‘take’ on Harper’s circumlocution on the Afghanistan mission:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070711.wcoafghan12/BNStory/Front/home

My *emphasis* added.



> An Afghan solution: Redefine the mission
> 
> NORMAN SPECTOR
> From Thursday's Globe and Mail
> ...



Spector’s “solution” is, I fear, grasping political straws.  The root of Mr. Harper’s problem is that he, *exactly* like Chrétien and Martin, is using Afghanistan for local, domestic, partisan political advantage.  He, *exactly* like Chrétien and Martin, appears disinterested in Canada’s interests in the world – which, *in my opinion*, include winning what I call the _Global war on Barbarism_  (So named after Dr Wafa Sultan’s description of the true nature of our struggle with al Qaeda and the Taliban and their fellow travellers.)

Harper needs to tell Canadians: *why* we went to Afghanistan – and it *was* to avoid being coerced into going to Iraq, and he needs to tell Canadians why we are *fighting* in Kandahar – to make development *possible*, because most of the NGOs, including CARE Canada, are afraid to go there now and will remain so until either we help the ANA and ANP provide adequate security or the Taliban _et al_ win.  Finally Harper needs to ‘sell’ a continued mission in Kandahar, doing the hard fighting, as being in our national best interests – even with casualties.  Thus far *he has failed* to do any of those thing.


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## GAP (12 Jul 2007)

If Harper did as you suggest, I wonder what the general reaction would be? I think it would be interpreted as straight shooting and his numbers would improve, but conversely it also give ammunition to the others and the MSM to criticize him for what ever, just because they can..


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## Edward Campbell (12 Jul 2007)

GAP said:
			
		

> If Harper did as you suggest, I wonder what the general reaction would be? I think it would be interpreted as straight shooting and his numbers would improve, but conversely it also give ammunition to the others and the MSM to criticize him for what ever, just because they can..



The MSM are going to criticize him no matter what, because:

1. He is the 'top dog' and they see it as their job to point out 'the rest of the story,' etc;

2. He is avoiding the tough issue(s) as he tries to scratch for a few votes here and few more there; and

3.  His *communications strategy* is not working - he has managed to enrage the media without finding any other way to communicate with Canadians.  As Ruxted said, "What we have here is a failure to communicate."

I remind readers who think I am too hard on Prime Minister Harper that I am a card carrying Conservative and a regular contributor to the party's _war chest_.  I want the Conservatives to win the next election but, even more, I want a competent, fiscally responsible, socially moderate and above all *principled* government.  For the time being, I believe, only the Conservative party can offer us most of that - I'd like to see a bit more principle and leadership.


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## Flip (12 Jul 2007)

I acknowledge that Edward is preaching to the conservative choir in the sense 
that His message to conservatives would be different than His message to others.
I agree Harper's the best we've got, but he has to do better.

Everyday there is some new peace initiative.
Everyday the government is afraid to act.

A simple review of the facts is all we really need.

Hunteroffortune has a very real point.  Veterans groups and serving members have a lot to offer to the debate.  I guess I'm asking you guys in green to serve twice in a way.
Someone else should help.

Yes, civvies (like me) are ignorant.
We are un-aware, and conspiracy theories are sooo popular.
Very few Canadians h( in my experience) have the faintest idea what's going on.

Hearing from those who serve makes it real.


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## Hawk (12 Jul 2007)

I've read through all of this with great interest. Like some have said, Harper is damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't. With a minority he has to tread lightly. No matter what he says publicly, the MSM is going to spin it. If he said we were staying indefinitely, he'd be in trouble, if he said we were pulling out tomorrow, he'd be in trouble. 18 months is a long time - a lot could change, for better or worse. The war could well come to our doorstep. Harper could win a majority, then he'd be in a better position to lead. There are innumerable other scenarios.

I also agree the CF should be more visible. Don't know about taking guns into Canadian cities, though. Remember what happened when Trudeau did - and I happen to think he did the right thing, much as I hated his politics. We had soldiers on the streets of Selkirk MB at the time of the flood, and the whole town fell in love with them. Its good for the civillian population to see our Military in action - and not just at fairs and recruitment drives in malls. Training exercises in towns and cities would scare h**l out of some people, but others would be fascinated.

We (Canadians in general) see ourselves as a kinder, gentler society. All well and good - till some bully points his beady little eye at us and decides he wants what we have, and can easily take it away from us by force.


Hawk


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## GAP (12 Jul 2007)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> "What we have here is a failure to communicate."
> 
> I remind readers who think I am too hard on Prime Minister Harper that I am a card carrying Conservative and a regular contributor to the party's _war chest_.  I want the Conservatives to win the next election but, even more, I want a competent, fiscally responsible, socially moderate and above all *principled* government.  For the time being, I believe, only the Conservative party can offer us most of that - I'd like to see a bit more principle and leadership.



I agree 100%


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## Greymatters (12 Jul 2007)

I totally agree that the Foreign Affairs department is responsible for getting information to the public about what we are doing over there.  When faced with I-lost-count-how-many opposition groups, the opposition group message becomes predominant if it isnt opposed.  

But in reality, Foreign Affairs doesnt have that 'us' mentality, its has an 'all about me' mentality.  It doesnt act to make Canada look good, its acts to make themselves look good.  These guys are all supposed experts at dealing with the media whenever there is some high level negotiation going on or when they attend a summit.  But if they arent in the limelight getting the glory, the point is lost on them.  Given Foreign Affairs' past opposition to working with the military on anything, and the trend among Foreign Affairs members worldwide to frequently blame the military for when their efforts fail, its no surprise they have no interest in actively supporting the mission (after all, many of them intend on become leading politicians and academics some day - who wants to be tied to a war scandal?).

Harper on the other hand is also becoming a disappointment and falling under the curse of every leader before him.  Its no longer about whats best for Canada, its about whats best for the Conservative party, and that is 'we want to get re-elected for another term'.  If the mission becomes unpopular (ironically due to lack of government support at the moment) then the government will distance themself from the mission.


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## Edward Campbell (13 Jul 2007)

It appears that governing by polls and relying upon political consultants were not exclusively Liberal tactics.  Here, reproduced from today’s _Globe and Mail_ under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act, are two stories re: the war on public and political opinion

 http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070713.wafghanpr13/BNStory/National/home


> Change tune on war, PM told
> 
> ALAN FREEMAN
> From Friday's Globe and Mail
> ...




So, it appears that the chattering classes have won the battle, if not the war: the NDP is on the side of the angels and the poor, war ravaged, abused Afghans will have to fend for themselves because Canadians are convinced that we  invaded Afghanistan in pursuit of a hopeless cause.

And the solution to the problem of a biased, celebrity obsessed media which has, intentionally, misled the Canadian public: enlist more journalists to ‘sell’ the mission.

And, in support oft my oft expressed fear that Prime Minister Harper’s Afghanistan ‘policy’ is aimed, squarely, at discomfiting the opposition rather than protecting and promoting Canada’s vital interests in the world: 


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070713.wafghan-mission13/BNStory/Front


> New Afghan rhetoric a ploy to sway Liberals, defence watchers say
> 
> BILL CURRY
> 
> ...


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## Exarecr (13 Jul 2007)

How sad to see our last hope to remain relevent and"in the news",so to speak being fretted away by of all groups the Conservatives who only want to behave like Liberals it would seem with respect to their incessant en devours to lead by polls and perceptions. There hasn,t been leadership in this Country since Mulroney let the Army clear up the Oka mess. Could you imagine any politician in any party now giving the army its marching orders in Oka today ? Of course the army of today would be forced of the roads by days of action, so I  suppose nothing will ever really change. What happened to our sense of stoicism or stubbornness  that we allow the media to so twist and distort the facts we just blissfully glaze ahead in slack jawed stupidity while the rest of the world that wants to matter fights the good fight because its the right thing to do. Australia is all Canada used to be and could still be with leadership and purpose of mission. As the countries who "chose to matter", gather in Passchendal to remember true slaughter of magnitudes Canadians never heard of because of war history being politically incorrect and thus erased from our memory, the most importtent mission facing Canada now is one of information. See you all in Kingston.


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## vonGarvin (14 Jul 2007)

I found this:
The services come as public support for the mission dwindles. Prime Minister Stephen Harper has also been advised to tone down his language on topics such as "fighting terrorism" and the 9/11 attacks. 
The advice is part of a public-opinion report prepared last month by The Strategic Counsel for Foreign Affairs, according to The Globe and Mail. 
In order to counteract apparent fading support for the mission, the report recommends emphasizing peacekeeping, rebuilding and Canada's role in helping to improve the lives of women and children. 
The report says only 40 per cent of those sampled across Canada actually support the mission in Afghanistan. In Quebec, support for the deployment was at close to zero. 
*The report blames "unbalances, mostly negative" media coverage *  and a lack of understanding about the purpose of the deployment, for the low support. 
The report also found *many Canadians believe Canada is part of a U.S.-led mission, or that Canada invaded Afghanistan*.   

Says it all, doesn't it?  Those who know the whats and the whys know and support the mission.  The ignorant think that we are there on some "Bushite adventure", whatever the hell that is...


Source:  http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070714/soldier_funerals_070714/20070714?hub=TopStories

(Shared in accordance with the fair dealings thing)


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## Cdn Blackshirt (15 Jul 2007)

> The report also found many Canadians believe Canada is part of a U.S.-led mission, or that Canada invaded Afghanistan.



Agreed.  This part pretty much sums up the problem....I can also tell you which way the people who are this ignorant vote....

Who wants to guess?


Matthew.    :blotto:


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## Edward Campbell (15 Jul 2007)

There is a more complete report here.


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## armyvern (15 Jul 2007)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> There is a more complete report here.



Thanks Edward, the two topics are now merged.


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## observor 69 (15 Jul 2007)

Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> Agreed.  This part pretty much sums up the problem....I can also tell you which way the people who are this ignorant vote....
> 
> Who wants to guess?
> 
> ...



"A public-opinion report says only 40 per cent of respondents across Canada, and almost none in Quebec, support the deployment.”

So about 60% across Canada oppose the mission and most of Quebec.
And you "can also tell you which way the people who are this ignorant vote...."   Interesting  :


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## Edward Campbell (15 Jul 2007)

I’m going to *assume*, just for the sake of argument, that there was some consistency in the polling.  I’m guessing that “support was virtually non-existent” means, say, 5+% support and 10+% undecided and, therefore 80+% opposed.  That means that in the Rest of Canada we *might* find something like 55±% support and 40±% opposed and 5% undecided.

In that case, *assuming* the PMO and the Conservative Party election brain-trust take account of this sort of thing and also *assuming* the PM’s change of tone is related to this sort of ‘knowledge’ of where Canadians are ‘at,’ then Québec is, once again:

•	Out of step with the *national* view; and

•	Driving the *national* policy agenda with its unique point-of-view.

If we look at a bit of electoral data we *might*see something like this:
(Read in four columns: Region,  Tory 2006 results, Campbell’s guesstimate of the potential results of an election to be held soon, Results realistically *required* for a Tory majority)

National:  124/308  134/308  *154*/308  
BC:  17/36  19/36  *21*/36 
Alberta:  28/28  28/28  *28*/28
Prairies:  20/28  20//28  *20*/28
Ontario:  40/106  45/106  *51*/106
Québec:  10/75  15/75  *27*/75
Atlantic Canada:  9/33  7/33  *8*/33

The Conservatives might gain a handful of seats by ‘coming up the middle’ in some strong, three way, Green/Liberal/NDP battles – especially in BC and Ontario.  They should make a few gains in Ontario’s 905 belt.  They *must* make substantial gains in either Ontario or Québec if they want a majority – there is no realistic alternative.  I’m guessing they see Ontario as a tougher nut than Québec; thus they will pander to Québecers – even when that makes for very bad national policy.  But there’s a problem: if you pander to Québec  once you must continue, and up the ante, or Québec will abandon you.

It’s an interesting political dilemma.


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## observor 69 (15 Jul 2007)

Well done Edward, very interesting Sunday morning reading.
 I very much like your earlier thread comment that "And, in support oft my oft expressed fear that Prime Minister Harper's Afghanistan ‘policy’ is aimed, squarely, at discomfiting the opposition rather than protecting and promoting Canada’s vital interests in the world: " This is the only way I can make seen of a strategic tough political game player with no military experience or exposure.

But ref your last comment as I look at your numbers they reflect the same old political balance parties always face in Canada to gain a majority. You have to get Ontario or Quebec. Harper's not going to get a majority in Quebec, yes he might up his seat count a bit, so key is getting more seats in Ontario. But  short of a poll confirming it my feeling is Ontario has majority urban opposition to the war and hence the move to gain middle of the road Liberal support. Looks like a smart political move.


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## Cdn Blackshirt (15 Jul 2007)

Baden  Guy said:
			
		

> "A public-opinion report says only 40 per cent of respondents across Canada, and almost none in Quebec, support the deployment.”
> 
> So about 60% across Canada oppose the mission and most of Quebec.
> And you "can also tell you which way the people who are this ignorant vote...."   Interesting  :



I'm going to withhold the initial words that lept to mind and instead just tell you to roll your eyes at somebody else!

Does it not strike you as coincidental that there is approximately 40% support for the Conservatives right now with 60% split between the Liberal Party, the Dippers, the Greens and the Block?

I'm not saying that all Conservatives who currently back the mission are 100% knowledgable about all the facets, but I believe based on my conversations with known conservatives, those that aren't 100% up to speed have cast their dye based on "principle-based intervention".  That is, we're involving ourselves to make a positive difference.

On the other hand, in my conversations with those whom I know are dedicated to other parties (that 60%):
95% couldn't find Aghanistan on a map without labels on it.
90% believe it's George Bush's war (85% will also believe GWB orchestrated 09/11)
95% have no concept of the impact on women and girls & education specifically between NATO intervention & not
95% have no concept of the terrorism training implications if NATO abandons Afghanistan and it reverts to a Waziristan-like terrorist breeding ground.

I should add, in my many conversations with non-conservative voters, when you suddenly introduce the women's education & rights facet of the debate, a majority suddenly have their eye-brows pop-up and the general response is "Gee, I didn't know that."

Bottom Line:  Afghanistan is currently unpopular because it is being branded as a Conservative effort.  Based on it being a Conservative effort, it is blacklisted as being acceptable by ALL on the Left.  All they need to hear is that Harper is for it, and they are automatically against it, and feel no need to actually educate themselves to understand it.  If you applied some sort of knowledge test to voters (or poll participants) about where Afghanistan is, what the issues are, etc. and only allowed those to vote based on passing that test, I think you'd find you that 95% of your 60% that currently oppose the mission would fail.  Furthermore, my father taught me at a young age that not all opinions are equal.  Only when your opinion is based on a solid foundation and you yourself have subjected that opinion to repeated objective criticism and fault-testing is ANY opinion worth the air it is spoken upon.  I should add in addition to the filter that the Left is currently applying to all things "Conservative", the Left in our country has become incredibly *lazy*.  We live in a country with free access to information, and instead of having any interest in educating themselves on issues like Afghanistan, Taxation, Kyoto, etc., the people who congregate in the Liberal Party, Green Party, and NDP seem more interested in tuning into the latest reality show.  Quite frankly, it's an afront to democracy when eligible voters CHOOSE ignorance because of this laziness.

Now I'm going to show more respect than you showed me by not rolling my eyes at you, but I would like your response....


Matthew.


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## observor 69 (15 Jul 2007)

Hmmmmm....well upon reviewing my comment to your comment I have found .........that .......I .....was .....wrong.
After reading Capt.Sensible's comment I made the mistake of tagging your reply with the 40% in support of the mission.
Whereas all you actually were referring to was "The report also found many Canadians believe Canada is part of a U.S.-led mission, or that Canada invaded Afghanistan."  A fact that you obviously find irritating as do I.

My personal take is that the Afghanistan mission is complex, involving many aspects Taliban, Pakistan, President Musharraf, the Afghanistan people and their cultural history, drug lords, Islam etc etc. This is one reason why I found the recent deaths a source of personal anger as Canadians in general have not taken the time, as you say, to become informed on the many componets affecting this mission.

Sorry about the confusion on my part but that's the risk you take when you try responding to numbers.  Ref your reply, we are probably not both in the same spot on the political spectrum but we most certainly are in our desire for Canadians to step beyond the screaming evening news and take the time to learn the facts behind ISAF's goals in Afghanistan and the enviornment affecting reaching those goals.


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## MarkOttawa (15 Jul 2007)

As for confusion, a post at _The Torch_:

Afstan: First get your facts right
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/07/afstan-first-get-your-facts-right.html

Mark
Ottawa


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## Edward Campbell (16 Jul 2007)

When he stays in his lane (strictly domestic politics) and when he is able to restrain his all to evident distaste for all things Conservative, Lawrence Martin is worth a read. Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act, is his latest from today’s _Globe and Mail_:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070715.wcomartin16/BNStory/Front/home
I have edited out a few typos the _Good Grey Globe_ let slip by in the on-line edition.


> Can Harper make Canadians feel good?
> 
> LAWRENCE MARTIN
> 
> ...



Many (most?) pundits agree that Prime Minister Harper had a rotten spring thanks to his own failure to have a _follow up_ agenda.

He *has done well*, very well by and for the military – but that’s not a big vote getter in Canada.  His ‘Arctic sovereignty’ mantra should work because it is, at its base, anti-Americans and a large majority of Canadians respond well to anything anti-American, anything that is which will not cause delays at the border.

As I have said elsewhere we appear to have entered an extended pre-election period. (I say extended because I cannot see why or how the Liberals would be tempted to dump the government any time soon – they’re broke and they need to strengthen Dion’s leadership reputation (those Tory attack ads appear to have worked!) and they’re doing well from Conservative dithering, better than they are doing from their own policy proposals.  I cannot see why the Liberals would want to go to the polls in 2007, at all, and probably not in 2008, either.)  So 19 Oct 09 looks like the date of the next election – it’s more than two years away!  Harper has decided he needs that long to turn voters’ minds away from why they dislike/distrust him and to give them some ‘feel good’ government.

The demise of the Afghanistan mission may be the price he decides he can/must pay to get the (many more) seats he needs in Ontario and, especially, Québec, to secure a parliamentary majority.


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## GAP (16 Jul 2007)

> As I have said elsewhere we appear to have entered an extended pre-election period. (I say extended because I cannot see why or how the Liberals would be tempted to dump the government any time soon – they’re broke and they need to strengthen Dion’s leadership reputation (those Tory attack ads appear to have worked!) and they’re doing well from Conservative dithering, better than they are doing from their own policy proposals.



With the setting of predetermined election dates, we should get used to US style electioneering and long, drawn out pre election campaigns. As for Dion, I can't see him coming back with anything at all....especially with Rae, Martha Hall-Findlay and Ignatiff chomping at the bit to replace him. Their optimum choice was that Dion would lose to a new minority Conservative government and the Liberals would have another leadership race, but now it looks like they will have to tough it out until late 2008 (I think that's when another review is due) and dump him them, but dump him they will....he's gone and is going nowhere.


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