# Recruiting and Computer literacy.



## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Eric Cozens <ericoz@sympatico.ca>* on *Mon, 19 Mar 2001 19:19:59 -0500*
--------------73E9EED98261E7BED2776F32
G‘Day readers,
I am only a semi lurker now!
Just thought I would sling in my two penn‘orth of info‘:
1.   Recruiting for any organization, task, service etc. is always a
problem if there is insufficient information or inaccurate information
delivered.  This also has something to do with choice of venue, and the
news media.
2.   There are many external factors, not the least of which are the
various elements of the media who whether we like it or not hold a lot
of power.  Couple this with the negative view of the forces engendered
in the younger generations of the public at large who did not have the
advantage of knowing what the Canadian Armed yes I know its politically
incorrect to use wicked words like "armed" in case the public think that
we are being aggressive, or possessing militaristic tendencies  Forces
are really doing and why they exist and the potential that is there.
3.   For some to me unknown reason, the media are always intent on
recording bad news because it is good for the "bottom line" I guess
that‘s the reason! even if that "news" is produced with an element of
bias or, in some cases, downright inaccuracy.
4.   Actual examples:  During the fiasco that involved the Airborne
Forces it was quite apparent to the ill informed and vulnerable PAL
public at large that the Canadian ‘Armed‘ Forces in general and the
Airborne in particular were a crowd of drunken layabouts who enjoyed
juvenile activities which included "hazing" and other socially
unacceptable activities.  A BIG deal was made of "...eating feces...",
various acts on the genitalia etc. etc. ad nauseum.  For this there was
a general condemnation of the Forces and an assumption that we are
incapable of controlling those anti social and criminal activities.
5.   When "good ol‘ boy" Mel Lastman had the temerity to call in the
Forces to look after what he perceived as a "crisis" situation when
there was a rather heavy snow fall coupled with very cold weather - who
got "hammered" not god ol‘ Mel, but the troops.  There were reports that
some soldiers were seen using public transport because their vehicles
"...did not work...", also a soldier was seen purchasing a City Street
Map "...because the army maps are outdated and no good..."  excuse me
for a moment while I ‘puke‘  Did it not occur to the reporters that
"troops" in uniform using public transport may be PRes or Cadets on
their way to an Armoury or, if they were on duty, a convenient way of
moving to another location without calling up DND Transport  not EVERY
individual has a motor vehicle at their disposal.
6.   a.  To use this set of principles it would be equally accurate to
say that, because there are a number of civilians who at any time are
apprehended while committing a crime and, because a number of those
civilians are incarcerated as a result,   then ALL civilians are crooks
and we should disband the human race!!!
     b.  if you see a Member of the Police Force or the Ambulance
Service or a Fire Fighter etc. eating a Burger at a fast food
restaurant it means that those Services are not properly administered as
they have no food available and God forbid that you would EVER see a
uniformed member of those services aboard public transport!
Having got that off of my chest, those of you who were subjected to my
earlier diatribe will know that although I am a VERY proud Canadian 
for over thirty two years, I used to be British and I still keep in
touch with what goes on over there and, in particular what goes on with
the military.  Remember that there are always exceptions and nothing and
no one are perfect, the way in which the ARMED Forces in Britain are
viewed and reported on is something that we in our country might well
emulate.
1.   Everywhere that you go where troops are quartered or active you
will see them IN UNIFORM and VERY proud to wear it.
2.   The military are with few exceptions regarded as an elite group
and worthy of respect.  Great visibility and POSITIVE reporting is given
to their activities whether it be Parades, Concerts, Cultural events,
Sporting activities, Public Relations and so on ad infinitum.
3.   There are permanent Recruiting Offices in all of the major centres,
some of which focus on a specific Regiment or Corps and others which are
more general.  Visits to Universities and Schools are carefully planned
in advance and again POSITIVE reporting is evident.
4.    The Army has a publication known as the SOLDIER and are also found
on web site   www.soldiermagazine.co.uk  The army has an excellent site
located at www.army.mod.uk. all of which gives great POSITIVE
publicity.  Public Affairs and Public Relations are important enough to
necessitate focussed training in these functions.
5.  Finally I promise, the principle used is that in any environment
and in any society there will always be some "bad eggs" either by
accident or by design.  However where we differ from our cousins ‘over
the pond‘ is that ‘over there‘ the culprits are apprehended and punished
regardless of rank , title, religion, sex or ethnic origin and others
who are not involved or are not criminally involved are dealt with
accordingly.  It would be unthinkable to consider disbanding a unit
because some criminals were found.  I strongly suspect that the
disbandment of our Airborne Regiment was more a matter of finding an
excuse to "shut down" an organization that was perceived as in much
modern warfare as of lesser impact or importance.  They should have
been disbanded or amalgamated with dignity and thanks and ALL criminals
severely and visibly dealt with.  But of course that would have been
less "newsworthy
On a different note and with the risk of causing offence not intended,
I implore you to take a moment to address the recipient if an
individual, or name the subject, or provide a mere "snip" of a previous
subject in your replies because I am wearing out my mouse wheel
scrolling down to find the next legitimate message after all of the
replies and replies to replies and.... .  It would make for a tidier
list and as you all know sometimes you end up with one message and a
list full of back messages - or am I doing something wrong??
Thanks for taking the time to read this.
Eric Cozens -  Arte et Marte
--------------73E9EED98261E7BED2776F32
G‘Day readers,
I am only a semi lurker now!
Just thought I would sling in my two penn‘orth of info‘:
1. Recruiting for any organization, task, service etc. is
always a problem if there is insufficient information or inaccurate information
delivered. This also has something to do with choice of venue, and
the news media.
2. There are many external factors, not the least of which
are the various elements of the media who whether we like it or not hold
a lot of power. Couple this with the negative view of the forces
engendered in the younger generations of the public at large who did not
have the advantage of knowing what the Canadian Armed yes I know its politically
incorrect to use wicked words like "armed" in case the public think that
we are being aggressive, or possessing militaristic tendencies Forces
are really doing and why they exist and the potential that is there.
3. For some to me unknown reason, the media are always
intent on recording bad news because it is good for the "bottom line" I
guess that‘s the reason! even if that "news" is produced with an element
of bias or, in some cases, downright inaccuracy.
4. Actual examples: During the fiasco that involved
the Airborne Forces it was quite apparent to the ill informed and vulnerable
PAL public at large that the Canadian ‘Armed‘ Forces in general and the
Airborne in particular were a crowd of drunken layabouts who enjoyed juvenile
activities which included "hazing" and other socially unacceptable activities.
A BIG deal was made of "...eating feces...", various acts on the
genitalia etc. etc. ad nauseum. For this there was a general
condemnation of the Forces and an assumption that we are incapable of controlling
those anti social and criminal activities.
5. When "good ol‘ boy" Mel Lastman had the temerity to call
in the Forces to look after what he perceived as a "crisis" situation when
there was a rather heavy snow fall coupled with very cold weather - who
got "hammered" not god ol‘ Mel, but the troops. There were reports
that some soldiers were seen using public transport because their vehicles
"...did not work...", also a soldier was seen purchasing a City Street
Map "...because the army maps are outdated and no good..." excuse
me for a moment while I ‘puke‘ Did it not occur to the reporters
that "troops" in uniform using public transport may be PRes or Cadets on
their way to an Armoury or, if they were on duty, a convenient way of moving
to another location without calling up DND Transport not EVERY individual
has a motor vehicle at their disposal.
6. a. To use this set of principles it would be equally
accurate to say that, because there are a number of civilians who at any
time are apprehended while committing a crime and, because a number of
those civilians are incarcerated as a result, then ALL civilians
are crooks and we should disband the human race!!!
 b. if you see a Member of the Police
Force or the Ambulance Service or a Fire Fighter etc. eating a Burger
at a fast food restaurant it means that those Services are not properly
administered as they have no food available and God forbid that you would
EVER see a uniformed member of those services aboard public transport!
Having got that off of my chest, those of you who were subjected to
my earlier diatribe will know that although I am a VERY proud Canadian
 for over thirty two years, I used to be British and I still keep in touch
with what goes on over there and, in particular what goes on with the military.
Remember that there are always exceptions and nothing and no one are perfect,
the way in which the ARMED Forces in Britain are viewed and reported on
is something that we in our country might well emulate.
1. Everywhere that you go where troops are quartered or
active you will see them IN UNIFORM and VERY proud to wear it.
2. The military are with few exceptions regarded as an
elite group and worthy of respect. Great visibility and POSITIVE
reporting is given to their activities whether it be Parades, Concerts,
Cultural events, Sporting activities, Public Relations and so on ad
infinitum.
3. There are permanent Recruiting Offices in all of the
major centres, some of which focus on a specific Regiment or Corps and
others which are more general. Visits to Universities and Schools
are carefully planned in advance and again POSITIVE reporting is evident.
4. The Army has a publication known as the SOLDIER
and are also found on web site www.soldiermagazine.co.uk
The army has an excellent site located at www.army.mod.uk. all of which
gives great POSITIVE publicity. Public Affairs and Public Relations
are important enough to necessitate focussed training in these functions.
5. Finally I promise, the principle used is that in any environment
and in any society there will always be some "bad eggs" either by accident
or by design. However where we differ from our cousins ‘over the
pond‘ is that ‘over there‘ the culprits are apprehended and punished regardless
of rank , title, religion, sex or ethnic origin and others who are not
involved or are not criminally involved are dealt with accordingly.
It would be unthinkable to consider disbanding a unit because some criminals
were found. I strongly suspect that the disbandment of our Airborne
Regiment was more a matter of finding an excuse to "shut down" an organization
that was perceived as in much modern warfare as of lesser impact or importance.
They should have been disbanded or amalgamated with dignity and thanks
and ALL criminals severely and visibly dealt with. But of course
that would have been less "newsworthy
On a different note and with the risk of causing offence not intended,
I implore you to take a moment to address the recipient if an individual,
or name the subject, or provide a mere "snip" of a previous subject in
your replies because I am wearing out my mouse wheel scrolling down to
find the next legitimate message after all of the replies and replies to
replies and.... . It would make for a tidier list and as you all
know sometimes you end up with one message and a list full of back messages
- or am I doing something wrong??
Thanks for taking the time to read this.
Eric Cozens - Arte et Marte
--------------73E9EED98261E7BED2776F32--
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## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Eric Cozens <ericoz@sympatico.ca>* on *Wed, 21 Mar 2001 18:54:23 -0500*
G‘Day all!
Judging by the lack of response, I fear that I may have caused offence
by my earlier ‘rant‘.  Please accept my apology if this is the case.  I
cannot alter my point of view nor my stated opinions and, perhaps it was
rather insensitive of me to draw comparisons between our CF and the
Brit‘ Forces.  Also, regarding the  "...replies to replies etc. etc..."
I see that I am in the minority and, for that reason alone I will return
to my rightful position as an observer aka ‘lurker‘
Cheers        Eric  -  Arte et Marte
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


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## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Ian Edwards" <iedwards@home.com>* on *Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:58:19 -0700*
I don‘t think that your response was offensive.  However, ahem, ahem, two
points about the difference between the Brits and the Canucks.
1 The Brits ALSO travel in civvies as individuals. At least they did back
in 1978  when I was in the U.K. I saw all kinds of them carrying duffle bags
and whatnot and dressed in civvies moving in and around London as indivduals
at tube stations and some of the connecting rail stations Paddington,
Charrings Cross and so on. And in other cities as well, but London in
particular as it is a junction point from Aldershot, etc. to the North. You
can always tell a soldier and I could also see their particulars written on
their "bags, duffle, soldiers for the use of".
2. From 1945 until 1989 or so, the U.K. was only a long stone‘s throw from
the Iron Curtain and it wouldn‘t have taken much for Joe Stalin or his
successors to push through to Calais where wogs start. Of course the
citizens of the U.K. would be more partial to things martial. There was also
the need for a large standing army to combat The Troubles Ireland. Of
course, in the 1950s and 1960s the British Empire was in its last phase and
the U.K. still had a large army as downsizing took its time. Consequently
the citizenry were used to seeing soldiers everywhere. And yes, we in Canada
do live in a fools‘ paradise thinking that either the Yanks or 3000 miles of
frozen waste or water separate us from trouble for all time. And yes, we do
have a great many immigrants/new citizens coming from areas of the world
where soldiers were to be avoided at best, despised, hated and feared in the
main.
Oh, and you may not be up to speed and then again perhaps you are, but in
the last couple of years the UK government has ripped the TA Territorial
Army = our Primary Reserve to shreds. What were once almost full battalions
of Terriors are now reduced to companies within no-name brand battalions,
although as a sop to tradition these companies are allowed to retain their
old regimental badges.
So there!!!!  Please contribute again. I like a good, clean fight. And I‘ll
try to remember to snip off the older messages at the bottoms of my
postings - you are not the first to complain about having to scroll through
old messages, although most of us have better equipment and don‘t have the
need for space.
Personally, I only know one thing for sure about pc‘s:   once you‘ve bought
a pc you open your wallet and the wallet never shuts. Started with an XT
wow, State of the Art about 1987 and now it‘s only good as a boat anchor.
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Cozens 
To: Army List 
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 4:54 PM
Subject: Recruiting and Computer Literacy
> G‘Day all!
>
> Judging by the lack of response, I fear that I may have caused offence
> by my earlier ‘rant‘  SNIP SNIP SNIP
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## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Thu, 22 Mar 2001 04:36:44 -0000*
Eric,
I thought your comments were so bang-on that they couln‘t be improved upon, 
hence *my* silence in the face of your last post. Your point about the 
benefits of making the CF a more "visible" part of every day Cdn. culture is 
one good possible answer, I think, to Ian‘s question about "How are the CF 
to compete for air-time/headspace against the 2,000 or 3,000, or whatever 
it was hits of info. we all apparently receive each day week? - Sorry, 
I‘ve deleted Ian‘s message and can‘t quite remember the details..."
Carry on carrying on - don‘t crawl back into the shadows. :
- Joan
----Original Message Follows----
From: Eric Cozens 
Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
To: Army List 
Subject: Recruiting and Computer Literacy
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 18:54:23 -0500
G‘Day all!
Judging by the lack of response, I fear that I may have caused offence
by my earlier ‘rant‘.  Please accept my apology if this is the case.  I
cannot alter my point of view nor my stated opinions and, perhaps it was
rather insensitive of me to draw comparisons between our CF and the
Brit‘ Forces.  Also, regarding the  "...replies to replies etc. etc..."
I see that I am in the minority and, for that reason alone I will return
to my rightful position as an observer aka ‘lurker‘
Cheers        Eric  -  Arte et Marte
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


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## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Ian Edwards" <iedwards@home.com>* on *Wed, 21 Mar 2001 21:50:35 -0700*
Ian E sez:
I‘m damn‘d by faint praise from Joan. Oh, well, as Col. Tom Parker first
said about Elvis the original Elvis, "bad publicity is better than no
publicity". And that quote applies both to me, personally, and to the CF I
suggest.
Actually, Joan, as I think you realize, the actual number of hits doesn‘t
matter. "The medium is the message."
----- Original Message -----
From: Joan O. Arc 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 9:36 PM
Subject: Re: Recruiting and Computer Literacy
> Eric,
>
> I thought your comments were so bang-on that they couln‘t be improved
upon,
> hence *my* silence in the face of your last post. Your point about the
> benefits of making the CF a more "visible" part of every day Cdn. culture
is
> one good possible answer, I think, to Ian‘s question about "How are the CF
> to compete for air-time/headspace against the 2,000 or 3,000, or whatever
> it was hits of info. we all apparently receive each day week? - Sorry,
> I‘ve deleted Ian‘s message and can‘t quite remember the details..."
>
> Carry on carrying on - don‘t crawl back into the shadows. :
>
> - Joan
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


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## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Fri, 23 Mar 2001 05:50:52 -0000*
Ian,
The fault is all mine. Have a memory like a sieve, I‘m afraid. You‘re right 
about the "medium is the message", but reality still trumps virtual reality 
TV, computer, radio, etc.  almost every time, so I think Eric‘s 
suggestions about English-style "casual visibility" and the new PR programs 
described by Rob would do at leasy *something* though certainly not 
everything to counter the flood of almost-always negative stuff about the 
CF the average civvie absorbs through the media.
John‘s suggestions BTW, welcome back, big guy! Truce? about doing positive 
community stuff would probably help, too, as it seems to me the single 
biggest challenge the CF faces in terms of image The only aspect of this 
whole business I‘m in any way qualified to comment on... is teaching 
average Canadians that "Soldiers are people too," who are part of our 
neighbourhoods, part of our communities, etc., and NOT just thugs who drive 
tanks and wave guns in various exotic locales around the globe.
I think that generally the more "ordinary" people see of CF personnel, the 
better they‘ll like and understand them. Not even the slickest media 
campaign can do as much as simply, friendly human contact, so good 
suggestions, all!
- Joan
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Ian Edwards" 
Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
To: 
Subject: Re: Recruiting and Computer Literacy
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 21:50:35 -0700
Ian E sez:
I‘m damn‘d by faint praise from Joan. Oh, well, as Col. Tom Parker first
said about Elvis the original Elvis, "bad publicity is better than no
publicity". And that quote applies both to me, personally, and to the CF I
suggest.
Actually, Joan, as I think you realize, the actual number of hits doesn‘t
matter. "The medium is the message."
----- Original Message -----
From: Joan O. Arc 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 9:36 PM
Subject: Re: Recruiting and Computer Literacy
 > Eric,
 >
 > I thought your comments were so bang-on that they couln‘t be improved
upon,
 > hence *my* silence in the face of your last post. Your point about the
 > benefits of making the CF a more "visible" part of every day Cdn. culture
is
 > one good possible answer, I think, to Ian‘s question about "How are the 
CF
 > to compete for air-time/headspace against the 2,000 or 3,000, or 
whatever
 > it was hits of info. we all apparently receive each day week? - Sorry,
 > I‘ve deleted Ian‘s message and can‘t quite remember the details..."
 >
 > Carry on carrying on - don‘t crawl back into the shadows. :
 >
 > - Joan
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
--------------------------------------------------------
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## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Jean-Francois Menicucci <menicucci@videotron.ca>* on *Fri, 23 Mar 2001 01:05:21 -0500*
remember the Oka Crisis well after the crisis was over the recruiting centre
welcomed an increase in demands?
You guys must remember eh I was 10 at the time :
The negative stuffs from the media are just a way to sell their BS, and
sincerely bad news are better than good huh :. The bad guy image that the CF
has, will take a long time to dissapear I think and even
with right now six differents adds on tv here in Montreal the RC is still
desert, and I walk in front
like 100 times each day.
As for more visibility in the community, might be a good idea and I think the CF
are doing a good job in that sense, but can we push it further and do we have
the resources to do it ?
"Joan O. Arc" wrote:
> Ian,
>
> The fault is all mine. Have a memory like a sieve, I‘m afraid. You‘re right
> about the "medium is the message", but reality still trumps virtual reality
> TV, computer, radio, etc.  almost every time, so I think Eric‘s
> suggestions about English-style "casual visibility" and the new PR programs
> described by Rob would do at leasy *something* though certainly not
> everything to counter the flood of almost-always negative stuff about the
> CF the average civvie absorbs through the media.
>
> John‘s suggestions BTW, welcome back, big guy! Truce? about doing positive
> community stuff would probably help, too, as it seems to me the single
> biggest challenge the CF faces in terms of image The only aspect of this
> whole business I‘m in any way qualified to comment on... is teaching
> average Canadians that "Soldiers are people too," who are part of our
> neighbourhoods, part of our communities, etc., and NOT just thugs who drive
> tanks and wave guns in various exotic locales around the globe.
>
> I think that generally the more "ordinary" people see of CF personnel, the
> better they‘ll like and understand them. Not even the slickest media
> campaign can do as much as simply, friendly human contact, so good
> suggestions, all!
>
> - Joan
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: "Ian Edwards" 
> Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> To: 
> Subject: Re: Recruiting and Computer Literacy
> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 21:50:35 -0700
>
> Ian E sez:
>
> I‘m damn‘d by faint praise from Joan. Oh, well, as Col. Tom Parker first
> said about Elvis the original Elvis, "bad publicity is better than no
> publicity". And that quote applies both to me, personally, and to the CF I
> suggest.
>
> Actually, Joan, as I think you realize, the actual number of hits doesn‘t
> matter. "The medium is the message."
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joan O. Arc 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 9:36 PM
> Subject: Re: Recruiting and Computer Literacy
>
>  > Eric,
>  >
>  > I thought your comments were so bang-on that they couln‘t be improved
> upon,
>  > hence *my* silence in the face of your last post. Your point about the
>  > benefits of making the CF a more "visible" part of every day Cdn. culture
> is
>  > one good possible answer, I think, to Ian‘s question about "How are the
> CF
>  > to compete for air-time/headspace against the 2,000 or 3,000, or
> whatever
>  > it was hits of info. we all apparently receive each day week? - Sorry,
>  > I‘ve deleted Ian‘s message and can‘t quite remember the details..."
>  >
>  > Carry on carrying on - don‘t crawl back into the shadows. :
>  >
>  > - Joan
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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