# 8 Canadians killed in Israeli airstrikes, Ottawa sends ships for evacuation



## ark (16 Jul 2006)

> Eight Canadians were killed on Sunday in an Israeli air raid that hit a Lebanese town on the border with Israel, Ottawa says.
> 
> Six other Canadians were in critical condition after the strike in the town of Aitaroun, said Canadian Foreign Affairs Minister Peter MacKay.
> 
> ...



http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/07/16/lebanon-canadians.html

How long will it take for those ships to get there ?

[edit] more info added


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## Donut (16 Jul 2006)

Shared under the Fair Dealings provision..... yada yada

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/07/16/lebanon-canadians.html


Air strike kills 8 Lebanese-Canadians
Last Updated Sun, 16 Jul 2006 14:30:49 EDT
CBC News
Eight Canadians were killed on Sunday in an Israeli air raid that hit a Lebanese town on the border with Israel, Ottawa says.

Six other Canadians were in critical condition after the strike in the town of Aitaroun, said Canadian Foreign Affairs Minister Peter MacKay.

The victims were not immediately identified.

Lebanese TV reports said some of the victims were from the same family and had come from Canada to spend the summer holidays in the town.

Ottawa sends ships for evacuation

Meanwhile, Ottawa is reportedly sending in commercial ships to evacuate any Canadian citizen who wishes to leave Lebanon, which has been pounded ever since Israel and the Lebanese-based militant organization Hezbollah began exchanging rocket fire and heavy artillery on July 12.

"We are securing these vessels. They'll will be in the region as soon as humanely possible," MacKay told Newsworld.

The Foreign Affairs Department says 16,000 Canadians have registered with the government to say they're in Lebanon, while estimating that there are likely two to three times that many in the country.

On Sunday, for the first time since fighting began, Israeli warplanes unleashed bombs on central Beirut, as well as pounding its suburbs and striking a major power station nearby.

Meanwhile, Hezbollah — which spurred the outbreak of violence with a cross-border raid on the Israeli military — carried out a deadly rocket attack on the northern Israeli port of Haifa.

Copyright ©2006 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation - All Rights Reserved



Who's up for the NEO Tasking?  Has CSOR taken it over yet?

DF

fastest Mod in the west?


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## Cdn Blackshirt (16 Jul 2006)

I don't mean to take away from the tragedy of casualties, but 16,000 registered?  And Foreign Affairs indicates that there maybe 2x or 3x that many?

How does that work?  According to Statscan, there are only 146,000 Lebanese-Canadians in total.  

Statscan Ethno-Cultural Portrait:  http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census01/products/highlight/ETO/Table1.cfm?Lang=E&T=501&GV=1&GID=0


Matthew.   ???


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## Ex-Dragoon (16 Jul 2006)

Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> I don't mean to take away from the tragedy of casualties, but 16,000 registered?  And Foreign Affairs indicates that there maybe 2x or 3x that many?
> 
> How does that work?  According to Statscan, there are only 146,000 Lebanese-Canadians in total.
> 
> ...



Does not necessarily mean that only Lebanese Canadians are travelling to Lebanon....


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## Danjanou (16 Jul 2006)

Not really that many when you think about it. A single cruise ship with a package tour from here that stops in Beirut could account for 200-300 Canadians. It’s high season for Mediterranean and Aegean Cruises right now. Mind I don't know off hand if Beirut is a regular cruise ship destination now.

In addition 16,000 out of 146,00 is not really a high percentage if you take the following into account. It’s summer and the kids are out of school. For most families this would be the only time to take a trip back to the old country to visit relatives.

Is it just me or can anyone remember the previous Government's publically announcing such an evacuation plan?


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## tomahawk6 (16 Jul 2006)

Any relations to the Kadr family ?


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## The Bread Guy (16 Jul 2006)

Also remember that Stats Can relies on self-reporting - there could be a number that have some Lebanese ancestry, and just say they're Canadian.  I would imagine there might be more than one person who prefers being Canadian to Lebanese when the IDF comes calling....


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## tomahawk6 (16 Jul 2006)

I agree with you news. Maybe they were innocent's in the wrong place at the wrong time,but its a great place to get training right on the Israeli border. Call me jaded.


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## SeaKingTacco (16 Jul 2006)

> Call me jaded



Jaded.

My neighbour's wife and kids are there right now, visiting the grandparents for the summer.  The kids are 3 and 6.  They are also Christian.

Not everyone who visits the Middle East is undergoing terror training, T6.


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## AndrewS (16 Jul 2006)

I also have friends there visiting family. One is christian with his family of 5. The other is muslim went with his family of 6, they went back to visit and for a wedding.  So like SeaKingTacco says.


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## Cloud Cover (16 Jul 2006)

Good job for the JSS when we have finally them, if they are in the right area to quickly react. In fact, maybe this is justification for a few more and to increase our frigate strength for maintaining a small permanent force of 1 JSS and 2FFG's in that part of the world.


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## Haggis (16 Jul 2006)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> I agree with you news. Maybe they were innocent's in the wrong place at the wrong time,but its a great place to get training right on the Israeli border. Call me jaded.



My MCpl, a status Indian, is married to a Lebanese girl.  Both solid Canucks.  His dad is a retired Royal Canadian.  She has family in the old country, Christians all.

Jaded you are.


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## Cdn Blackshirt (16 Jul 2006)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> I agree with you news. Maybe they were innocent's in the wrong place at the wrong time,but its a great place to get training right on the Israeli border. Call me jaded.



I wasn't thinking about "training".  If anything I was leaning towards Canada being a "citizenship of convenience" with their primary residence being in Lebanon.

Regardless, I'll drop the line of inquiry now as this is probably an inappropriate time to discuss this....

My apologies to anyone who I've offended.


Matthew.


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## tomahawk6 (16 Jul 2006)

I apologize for any innocent parties that I offended.


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## SeaKingTacco (16 Jul 2006)

> I wasn't thinking about "training".  If anything I was leaning towards Canada being a "citizenship of convenience" with their primary residence being in Lebanon.



Hey, who is to say with certainty what the status is of everyone with a Canadian passport who happens to be in Lebanon actually is.  I was just pointing out the one case I was personally familiar with.



> I apologize for any innocent parties that I offended.


T6- no offence taken.  Just adding to the dialectic...


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## Cliff (16 Jul 2006)

Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> I wasn't thinking about "training".  If anything I was leaning towards Canada being a "citizenship of convenience" with their primary residence being in Lebanon.



Excellent point. I agree.


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## The Bread Guy (16 Jul 2006)

Apologies here for any offense, too - I meant more Canadian nationals who may be living in LBN.

Usual disclaimer......

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/060717/1/424rl.html

*Canada says seven killed in Lebanon, revising death toll*
17 Jul 06, 

Seven Canadians were killed and three others wounded in the south of Lebanon, a spokeswoman for Canada's foreign affairs ministry said.

Earlier, Foreign Minister Peter MacKay said that eight Canadians had been killed.

"According to the latest information available, seven Canadian civilians were killed and three others wounded," said spokeswoman Ambra Dickie.

The Canadian ambassador in Lebanon was in contact with the families of the victims, she added.

The spokeswoman did not confirm reports that at least five of the victims were related or that they may have been killed in the same Israeli air raid.

The foreign minister had also said earlier that six others had been critically injured.

According to Lebanese police, five of the dead were from the same family, killed in an Israeli air attack, which hit their home near the Israel-Lebanon border.

Radio Canada reported that four children were among the victims.

Amid continuing Israeli air raids and Hezbollah rocket attacks on Israel, Ottawa was planning an evacuation of Canadians from Lebanon, MacKay told CTV earlier.

"These ships have been secured, we'll be getting them to a coastal position off Lebanon. We're also working to secure the safe passage of these vessels, and that includes seeking assurance from all the parties there," he said.

About 16,000 Canadians are registered with the Canadian embassy in Beirut, but there could be many more inside the country. There are some 250,000 Canadians of Lebanese origins, and many travel to their original homes during the summer holidays.


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## CanadaPhil (17 Jul 2006)

Just in case any of you are not aware, unlike many Middle Eastern countries, Lebanon has a very large Christian population. 

Also remember that Lebanon was essentially a colony of France  for generations and that many Lebanese speak French.


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## Kirkhill (17 Jul 2006)

http://www.cidcm.umd.edu/inscr/mar/data/lebchst.htm

Lebanon's current problems are partly the result of a complex society:

32% Shia
25% Maronite Christian
20% Sunni
10% Palestinian
 6% Druze
 4% Armenian Christian
 3% Other

In the past the Maronite Christians found refuge from Orthodox Christians in Muslim Society.
Israel has found support from Maronites recently.
Druze, Shiite Arabs, that live in Israel have also volunteered in the past, to fight for Israel against Arab states.

Nothing is simple.

Regardless circumstances you can't help but regret the loss of the lives of those kids and anyone else caught up in being at the wrong place at the wrong time.  

Now,  as for those that might have known they were on "ground zero" and knowingly put there families there with them.........that is a different story.


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## CanadaPhil (17 Jul 2006)

I have just seen part of a news conference from Montreal on CBC Dreamworl... errr...Newsworld where the relatives of Canadian citizens who were killed were speaking out.

Apparently Stephen Harper is directly to blame.

(sigh)


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## Remius (17 Jul 2006)

I blame Range Control. ;D


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## GAP (17 Jul 2006)

U.S. Contracts Cruise Ship For Possible Lebanon Evacuations
By Gerry J. Gilmore  -  American Forces Press Service
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jul2006/20060717_5677.html

WASHINGTON, July 17, 2006 – The United States has contracted a commercial ship to assist in a possible mass evacuation of Americans from Lebanon, a Defense Department spokesman said here today. 
The cruise ship Orient Queen is expected to arrive in the area of operations sometime tomorrow, Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said. The ship can accommodate hundreds of passengers and may be used to ferry U.S. evacuees from the port of Beirut to the island of Cyprus. 

The U.S. Navy destroyer USS Gonzalez has been tasked to escort the Orient Queen as a force-protection measure, Whitman said. 

A number of options, including the use of commercial ships as well as military vessels, are being considered as means of evacuating U.S. citizens from Lebanon, Navy Lt. Jereal Dorsey, a spokesman for Task Force 59, based on Cyprus, said. 
More on link


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## tomahawk6 (17 Jul 2006)

Its sort of like the residents of New Orleans who were told to evacuate but didnt. If you ignore the warnings .....


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## tomahawk6 (17 Jul 2006)

Canada is following the same model. I think the Israelis are holding off until after the evacuations are complete.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060716/mideast_mackay_060717/20060717?hub=TopStories


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## simoncat (17 Jul 2006)

Of course , we cannot make any sweeping statements about the Canadians killed in Lebanon...but pays to remember, that Israel is not "targeting" civilians...regrettably this is the price of war. Especially one in which the enemy..the Hezbollah..is fond of setting up their headquarters in civilian neighbourhoods..all the better to denouce Israel for murdering civilians. Like they care.

Interesting the reaction  of Hassan El-Akhras, as he found out about the deaths while participating in a march demanding that Canada and the international community condemn Israel for defending itself against Hezbollah's Katyusha rockets.:

''My cousin just called me to say my father, two of my aunts, my uncle and his son are now martyrs,'' Mr. El-Akhras was quoted as saying, leaving no doubt about his own political sympathies.

As George Jonas of the National Post comments: 

"Perhaps Mr. El-Akhras shouldn't push martyrdom - not unless he wishes to suggest his family members weren't vacationers at all, but volunteers in the propaganda war against Israel."

Sorry if I sound hard, but certain things are worth fighting for..and dying for.  If the leftist MSM had had the same presence in WWII , reporting every heartwrenching case of a German child caught in RAF raids, many of us would be enjoying life in concentration and extermination camps as we speak.


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## The Bread Guy (17 Jul 2006)

Just caught part of a Newsworld newscast, saying an Israeli trooper killed in the Lebanon campaign was a Canadian, who used to spend his summers in Montreal.

Anyone heard anything more on this?


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## The Bread Guy (17 Jul 2006)

Bit more detail on the evac ships, shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act - http://www.cb-cda.gc.ca/info/act-e.html#rid-33409


  
*Government leases six ships to evacuate Canadians from war-torn Lebanon*
JOAN BRYDEN, macleans.ca, July 17, 2006 - 18:36
http://www.macleans.ca/topstories/news/shownews.jsp?content=w071795A

OTTAWA (CP) - Six chartered passenger ships will be positioned off the coast of Lebanon beginning Wednesday to evacuate up to 4,500 trapped Canadians a day from strife-torn country.

Foreign Affairs officials said Monday that the plan, for now, is to evacuate Canadians by ship from the port of Beirut. They will be taken to Cyprus, where three aircraft have been leased to fly them home.

But *officials acknowledged there is no plan yet to get Canadians safely from southern Lebanon, the region hardest hit by Israeli missiles, to the country's capital.*

Canada believes any attempt at an evacuation from the southern cities of Tyr and Saida would be perilous because the port infrastructure has been destroyed in both places.

Consequently, Canadian officials say they are seeking assurances of safe passage through southern Lebanon to Beirut from all "belligerents" in the crisis.

They are also talking to non-governmental organizations, such as the Red Cross, about the most secure route out of southern Lebanon.

Moreover, sources said a military reconnaissance squad was dispatched Monday to Lebanon to provide security and logistical advice for the evacuation.

Foreign Affairs Minister Peter MacKay said the government is also seeking assurances from Israel and Lebanon that the ships conveying Canadian refugees will not be targeted.

"We want assurances that those ships will be protected and afforded the utmost safety," he said on CBC Newsworld.

*Sources said one or more Canadian warships might be sent to provide an escort for the refugee ships, although no Canadian warships are currently in the vicinity and would take a week or more to get there.

Those ships would be equipped with helicopters that could fly overhead and warn of any incoming missile or rocket fire.*

*At least 50,000 Canadians are believed to be in Lebanon, but officials said most are dual-citizens who live there permanently and many likely won't want to leave.*

About 5,000 Canadians are thought to be visiting the country and officials expect they will make up the bulk of those who choose to flee the violence. Seven Canadian visitors were killed Sunday during Israeli attacks on Lebanon.

Foreign Affairs was advising Canadians in Lebanon on Monday to expect notification about an evacuation within 24 hours. In the meantime, Canadians were advised to stay indoors and keep their travel documents in order and readily available.

Opposition critics accused the government of reacting sluggishly to the plight of Canadians trapped in Lebanon. Liberal leadership hopeful Scott Brison accused the government of "dawdling" on an evacuation plan, thereby endangering the lives of Canadians.

"British ships and French ships are evacuating people right now," Brison said in an interview.

"This is the kind of situation where minutes and hours count and our government is days behind."

France, Italy, Sweden and Denmark had already begun evacuating their citizens on Monday and the United States was expected to begin evacuating Americans on Tuesday.

Canada's evacuation will not begin until mid-week, and only if assurances of safe passage are received. But officials bristled at suggestions they've been slow off the mark.

"We've put together a plan that provides the safest and securest means of getting Canadians out," said one official at a background briefing for reporters.

The department took the unusual move of allowing reporters and cameras into its emergency operations centre, where all calls from Canadians in Lebanon, as well as from their worried relatives in Canada, are being fielded.

Officials said they have up to 16 people answering the phones 24 hours a day, quadruple the number of operations officers who normally take calls. As of mid-day Monday, they'd taken 6,463 calls since last Thursday. Another 4,600 e-mails had been received.

MacKay said he's "very proud" that people in his department volunteered to man the phone lines over the weekend.

"Officials at Foreign Affairs are extremely dedicated. They understand the trauma, the human turmoil that is taking place in people's lives inside Lebanon," he said.

MacKay suggested Canada faces a "unique" challenge because of the large number of Canadians in Lebanon, almost 25,000 of whom have registered with the Canadian embassy in Beirut.

But officials acknowledged other countries have similar numbers who've registered with their embassies.


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## GAP (17 Jul 2006)

That's going to be a logistical nightmare for both Foreign Affairs, and the people.


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## CanadaPhil (17 Jul 2006)

simoncat said:
			
		

> .............
> Interesting the reaction  of Hassan El-Akhras, as he found out about the deaths while participating in a march demanding that Canada and the international community condemn Israel for defending itself against Hezbollah's Katyusha rockets.:
> 
> ''My cousin just called me to say my father, two of my aunts, my uncle and his son are now martyrs,'' Mr. El-Akhras was quoted as saying, leaving no doubt about his own political sympathies.
> ...



It is also interesting to note that the southern town in which they died, Aitaroun, is directly on the border with Israel and this town for all intents and purposes has been under Hezbollah control for at least the last 6 years. 

So I guess considering Mr. El-Akhras use of the word "martyr", we can surmise that at the very least his relatives were in the vicinity of Hezbollah terrorists and it would not be a stretch to consider them sympathizers of Hezbollah, which if I am not mistaken, our government is on record as declaring a TERRORIST organization. 

Vacation indeed.


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## The Bread Guy (17 Jul 2006)

A lesser-know CENTCOM side-tasking....

http://www.centcom.mil/sites/uscentcom1/Lists/Press%20Releases/DispForm.aspx?ID=3396&Source=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ecentcom%2Emil%2Fsites%2Fuscentcom1%2FLists%2FPress%2520Releases%2FCurrent%2520Releases%2Easpx

*TASK FORCE 59 AIDS IN DEPARTURE OF 42 AMERICAN CITIZENS FROM LEBANON*
7/17/2006

CYPRUS -- Today two Marine Corps CH-53E Sea Stallion helicopters aided in the voluntary departure of 42 American citizens from the U.S. Embassy in Beirut, Lebanon.  The citizens were transported here where processing and accommodations were coordinated with the U.S. Embassy in Cyprus.  Working in cooperation with U.S. Embassies in Lebanon and Cyprus, Commander Task Force 59, U.S. Marine Corps Brig. Gen. Carl Jensen, is leading joint U.S. military coordination efforts from Cyprus.  The Marine helicopters are part of the 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit (Special Operations Capable) currently in the middle of a six-month deployment to the European and Central Command theaters of operation.   American forces are in the operating in the area at the request of the U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon.  The mission of U.S. forces here is to assist American citizens who wish to voluntarily depart Lebanon.  In addition to their primary mission, the safety and security of both American citizens and forces is a top priority.


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## 3rd Horseman (17 Jul 2006)

If you fled Lebanon and got a Cdn passport and have now returned to Lebanon then your not Canadian. The easy end is to cancel all those passports.
I watched that relative of the dead Canadians yaping on the news today and she claimed that the Hezbollah soldiers around the house were their to protect her family......?....and she wonders why a rocket landed on the house!


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## Cdn Blackshirt (17 Jul 2006)

Based on what appears to be very selective targeting on the part of the Israelis, you have to wonder how many of these "civilian casualties" are either non-uniformed members of Hezbollah (or foreign governments) or are civilians supportive of their cause who are standing around cheering rocket launches when an Israeli JDAM drops in from above to spoil the party.


Matthew.   ???


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## GAP (17 Jul 2006)

Judging by the articles and comments here, the news and paper reports, that seems very likely. It is not all of them by any stretch of the imagination, but if you take 1/2 of 1%  of the 20,000 mentioned by Peter McKay on CBC, that still is 100 too many.


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## The Bread Guy (17 Jul 2006)

Let's even be charitable - how about people caught in places Hezbollah uses as cover?


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## GAP (17 Jul 2006)

There's a real question mark there isn't there? Granted some are aligned or supportive, but a lot more are just people hoping for a holiday.  They don't wear badges or anything, so there is no way of telling them apart. 

When they speak out in favor of Hezbollah, yeah, then you have a case, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that to make the most of a Canadian passport, all they have to do is make noise like a stranded vacationer.


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## CanadaPhil (18 Jul 2006)

Here are some more statements attributed to a relative:

"Everybody blames Hezbollah," said Maysoun Al-Akhrass. "Hezbollah is our protector.

"It's they who try to protect my family."

Well, that's enough for me.  My sympathy meter for this particular family is being reset to ZERO.


Quotes came from this article:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/cpress/20060717/ca_pr_on_na/lebanon_cda_killed


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## 1feral1 (18 Jul 2006)

CanadaPhil said:
			
		

> Here are some more statements attributed to a relative:
> 
> "Everybody blames Hezbollah," said Maysoun Al-Akhrass. "Hezbollah is our protector.
> 
> ...



+1 for ya Phil,

Regards,

Wes


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## tingbudong (18 Jul 2006)

> If you fled Lebanon and got a Cdn passport and have now returned to Lebanon then your not Canadian. The easy end is to cancel all those passports.



That is a rather broad and sweeping generalization, wouldn't you agree?  Would you state that the same applies to Afghan-Canadians returning to Afghanistan to assist in reconstruction? (I'm aware of the situation with the Khadr's).  Or what about people of developed nations (Germany, England, Australia) who hold Canadian passports.  If they return to their home countries to work/live etc, should they be required to renounce their citizenship?.  A friend of mine has lived in Asia (several different countries) for over twenty years.  Aside from yearly visits to family in Canada, he hasn't lived in Canada since he graduated from university.  Is he Canadian?  Should he give up his passport?


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## CanadaPhil (18 Jul 2006)

A further thought......

The relatives are demanding that there be a government inquiry and I agree wholeheartedly.

The government should INQUIRE about the background of this family. Start by taking a much closer look at the convenient MISPELLING of the family name between the members living in Montreal and those still living in Lebanon. 

And another one......

Hezbollah DECLARED an open war on Israel almost 2 days before these people died. Yet they openly admit to supporting Hezbollah and saying that Hezbollah are their protectors. THEY were the ones who put their young children in harms way.


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## Cdn Blackshirt (18 Jul 2006)

CanadaPhil said:
			
		

> Here are some more statements attributed to a relative:
> 
> "Everybody blames Hezbollah," said Maysoun Al-Akhrass. "Hezbollah is our protector.
> 
> ...



+1 for me too....


Matthew.


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## paracowboy (18 Jul 2006)

3rd Horseman said:
			
		

> If you fled Lebanon and got a Cdn passport and have now returned to Lebanon then your not Canadian.


oh, bullshit! There are many folks who have returned to Lebanon that need to get shot, but your criteria is stupid.


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## Kirkhill (18 Jul 2006)

Seems to be an awful lot of speculation here with very few facts.  Didn't we just go through this with respect to serving soldiers?  Don't these people deserve at least the same consideration?


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## -dikweed- (18 Jul 2006)

Great quote by Bill Graham:

“I think what we do have to do is ensure, obviously, the security of our vessels...If the Americans, the British and the French can assure the security of their vessels, I'm sure that we should be able to do the same thing,” Liberal Leader Bill Graham said, appearing on CTV.

“I don't see why it would be any more difficult for us than for them.”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060718.wlebancan0718/BNStory/International/home

_______

Didn't his party gut our navy?  Is he senile or something?


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## Teddy Ruxpin (18 Jul 2006)

That's OK, the NDP's Alexa McDonough was on TV this morning spouting on about Canada being unable to conduct an evacuation because we were "fighting George Bush's war"... :

I suppose that means that the NDP will be supporting the Chinook purchase and the impending BHS project - both would be perfect in an evacuation scenario.  Heh...what am I thinking?


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## Cdn Blackshirt (18 Jul 2006)

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> That's OK, the NDP's Alexa McDonough was on TV this morning spouting on about Canada being unable to conduct an evacuation because we were "fighting George Bush's war"... :
> 
> I suppose that means that the NDP will be supporting the Chinook purchase and the impending BHS project - both would be perfect in an evacuation scenario.  Heh...what am I thinking?



As long as I live, I will never understand how anyone can think like the NDP does....and the huge number of voters who support them, I find absolutely terrifying.


Matthew.   ???


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## Kirkhill (18 Jul 2006)

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> That's OK, the NDP's Alexa McDonough was on TV this morning spouting on about Canada being unable to conduct an evacuation because we were "fighting George Bush's war"... :
> 
> I suppose that means that the NDP will be supporting the Chinook purchase and the impending BHS project - both would be perfect in an evacuation scenario.  Heh...what am I thinking?



I am assuming you are referring to the ultra-sonic, superfast BHS being developed as we speak for Canadian service capable of getting from Halifax to anywhere in the world in under two days and lifting 50,000 passengers at once.

Or maybe Alexa et al want us to station BHSs in every trouble spot that Canadians find themselves.  Just in case.  :


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## Brad Sallows (18 Jul 2006)

>If they return to their home countries to work/live etc, should they be required to renounce their citizenship?. 

What an odd universe you inhabit.  Surely one's "home country" is the one in which one holds citizenship.  What are we doing that causes and permits inhabitants of foreign countries to obtain Canadian citizenship as a convenience, and how should it be stopped so that only people who want to make Canada "home" come to, and are admitted to, Canada?


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## orange.paint (18 Jul 2006)

My thoughts and condolences go out to the families of these Canadians.Regardless where they were they were still Canadian civilians.My family goes back to the motherland from time to time,makes them no less Canadian.

again my condolences to those who were close to them


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## Edward Campbell (18 Jul 2006)

Is it only me?

Does anyone else see the inherent nonsense in Bill Graham’s position as reported in today’s _National Post_ at:  http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=441dc7c6-0cf8-4b2e-93c9-3534b8eadecb&k=18111 ?

Graham is quoted as saying:


> "Canada has always had a proud tradition in the Middle East of being able to work with all parties in a way to establish the conditions of a long and lasting peace,"



I agree we have a ‘tradition’ – going back to the ‘50s – of being _even handed_ (whatever that means) but it has, clearly and obviously, had *NO* impact at all on Middle East peace or lack of same.  There has not been any _peace_ in the Middle East since the ‘40s much less “a long and lasting peace” - what is Bill Graham smoking?

I agree, in part, with the some of the comments by Larry C. Johnson posted here:  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/47644/post-413919.html#msg413919 and with some of the commentary.  Specifically I agree with Johnson when he says:


> …
> What about Hamas and Hezbollah?
> 
> They are not terrorists. They carry out terrorist attacks, but they are not terrorists. They are something far more dangerous. They are a fully functioning political, social, religious, and military organizations that use terrorism tactics, but they are far more formidable than terrorist groups like Al Qaeda or the Basque Terrorist Organization.
> …



I’m not sure I agree that Israel’s response is either disproportionate or illogical.  I would rather that Israel was able to discriminate between shades of civilian grey but were I facing the IDF my last choice would be to fight ‘out in the open’ (as we expect Western (including Israeli) soldiers to do) – I would want to run and hide in a school or hospital, behind women’s skirts, etc.

I think Israeli (probably any) direct military action is a short term band-aid, at best.  I believe we, the American led _West_ (which includes e.g. Fiji, Malaysia, Japan and Singapore), need to ferment revolutions of all sorts throughout the region in order to provoke a generation or two of bloody murderous, internecine Arab/Islamic unrest and violence which might, hopefully, provoke Islamic intellectuals to begin a religious and social _reformation_ which, I believe is an essential precondition to an absolutely necessary _enlightenment_ throughout the Arab and Iranian dominated _Islamic Crescent_ stretching from the Western tip of North Africa through the Middle east and South Asia all the way to Indonesia.

Canada’s _neutrality_ is now and has always been a waste of time.  We are, at best, a bit player in the region and we have never – not in ’56 nor again in ’73 – been anything more.  Our _influence_ was and remains _zilch_ which was made abundantly clear in 1956 when Egyptian President Nasser obliged Canada to change its contribution to the United Nations Emergency Force from a battalion of infantry to a mixed bag of combat support and service units because Egypt (he, personally) was ‘offended’ by the _”Britishness”_ of the Queens Own Rifles of Canada name and badges – that big silver maple leaf really must have confused him.

I am pretty sure that Bill Graham is a smart fellow; I think he even thinks about and cares about the world situation and about Canada’s potential _roles_ in the world; it might even be possible that Graham understands that Canada is a charter member of the _West_ and that we are not _neutral_, and will not be allowed (by the new ‘enemy’) to pretend otherwise.  I even think he knows that we need effective, balanced, combat capable and combat ready armed forces to the government _options_ when it confronts a dangerous world.  I think Graham parks his brains and thoughts when it is necessary to engage in the sophomoric game called Canadian political discourse – he probably does so because he *knows* that the *third rate* Canadian media will not publish rational thoughts: they just want controversial, adversarial ten second sound bites.

Edit: sentence structure


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## Kirkhill (18 Jul 2006)

rcac_011 said:
			
		

> .......Regardless where they were they were still Canadian civilians.My family goes back to the motherland from time to time,makes them no less Canadian. ......



Likewise.

Edit: I just realized when editing rcac_011's post for emphasis that I had nowhere offered my condolences to the family involved.  I do that now.  No matter what cause some members of the family may or may not serve nobody deserves to see the innocent die.  My condolences to the family.


----------



## CanadaPhil (18 Jul 2006)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> ..................
> No matter what cause some members of the family may or may not serve nobody deserves to see the innocent die.  My condolences to the family.



I firmly believe that loss of innocent life is tragic. 

When I first heard about the deaths of Canadians I did feel much sadness for them.

However, I have to admit that when I heard and saw the comments of the relatives in Montreal and heard a few more details, I would be a liar if I didn't say that I was %&^*($# enraged! 

I mean, I know that they are grieving and in pain, but HOW DARE you act as an apologist for a murderous terrorist organization and blame your government for what happened????

Maybe, I just don't get this terrorist label thing. 

Apparently, Hezbollah, Hamas and others are on a list of BANNED TERRORRIST Organizations, and as such it is apparently ILLEGAL for a Canadian citizen to otherwise AID, FUND, or be a MEMBER OF any such organization. And apparently, any evidence of a prior association in such an organization are grounds for an immediate denial of a citizenship or refugee claimant application.

So then why should it be OK for Canadian citizens to openly SUPPORT Hezbollah???


----------



## GAP (18 Jul 2006)

CanadaPhil said:
			
		

> I firmly believe that loss of innocent life is tragic.
> Apparently, Hezbollah, Hamas and others are on a list of BANNED TERRORRIST Organizations, and as such it is apparently ILLEGAL for a Canadian citizen to otherwise AID, FUND, or be a MEMBER OF any such organization. And apparently, any evidence of a prior association in such an organization are grounds for an immediate denial of a citizenship or refugee claimant application.
> So then why should it be OK for Canadian citizens to openly SUPPORT Hezbollah???



good point... but does the government have the will to do it?


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## Kirkhill (18 Jul 2006)

CanadaPhil said:
			
		

> So then why should it be OK for Canadian citizens to openly SUPPORT Hezbollah???



Perhaps it shouldn't be if laws are in place to ban the discussion and support of other philosophies and organizations.  Personally I am not in favour of those existing laws but that is another tale entirely.

My point is that recently we were railing against individuals speaking out of turn during a time of grief and the media picking it up causing hardship for friends, family and associates.  I think we should at least attempt to look at this in a similar light.  We don't know all the facts of the situation.....beyond this: you don't get to pick your relatives and if you are 5 years old you go where mommy and daddy go.  Those that are left behind are going to miss you.


----------



## tingbudong (19 Jul 2006)

> What an odd universe you inhabit.  Surely one's "home country" is the one in which one holds citizenship.



A manner of semantics...I suppose I should have written "return to one's country of birth". 

Speaking as someone who routinely deals with those seeking a life in Canada, I can comment that a majority savour citizenship not for themselves, but for their children.


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## snowy (19 Jul 2006)

Israel has the right to defend itself, Hezbollah  querrillas are  a group of terrorists who want to stop the advance of peace.


snowy


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## bilton090 (19 Jul 2006)

My thoughts and condolences go out to the families of these Canadians.Regardless where they were they were still Canadian civilians.My family goes back to the motherland from time to time,makes them no less Canadian.

again my condolences to those who were close to them

    WTF, these people were supporters of the Hezbollah  they got what was coming !, and there family in Montreal should be rounded up and sent back there !
                                                                                              :evil:


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## Bo (19 Jul 2006)

snowy said:
			
		

> Israel has the right to defend itself, Hezbollah  querrillas are  a group of terrorists who want to stop the advance of peace.
> 
> 
> snowy



Hmmm let`s see.....nearly 300 civilians killed and massive destruction to civilian infrastructure over the last week in Lebanon.

You call that defense?

I call it a massacre.


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## GAP (19 Jul 2006)

Bo said:
			
		

> Hmmm let`s see.....nearly 300 civilians killed and massive destruction to civilian infrastructure over the last week in Lebanon.
> You call that defense?
> I call it a massacre.


I don't suppose you gave any thought to the fact that Hezbolla is firing from among the civilians to encourage as much civilian damage as possible, knowing that Isreal will counterfire?


----------



## George Wallace (19 Jul 2006)

Bo said:
			
		

> Hmmm let`s see.....nearly 300 civilians killed and massive destruction to civilian infrastructure over the last week in Lebanon.
> 
> You call that defense?
> 
> I call it a massacre.



You haven't taken into fact that many of these 'villages' are Hezbollah strongholds, and they are not exactly 'innocent' civilians.

Perhaps you would like to look up some of the 'Laws of War' and what is said about purposely targetting 'Civilians'?

Perhaps you would like Israelis to roll over and die after any and all attacks from the Hamas and Hezbollah 'Terrorists"?

Perhaps you would like to look into the UN's declaring that the Lebanese Government destroy Hezbollah, and the fact that instead of that happening, Hezbollah candidates were elected to the Government?

Perhaps you should look deeper into the subject?

I know that there are some interesting articles being published these days......some will make it into this discusion.


----------



## paracowboy (19 Jul 2006)

Bo said:
			
		

> Hmmm let`s see.....nearly 300 civilians killed and massive destruction to civilian infrastructure over the last week in Lebanon.
> You call that defense?
> I call it a massacre.


and who defines "civilian"? Neither terrorist organization wears uniforms. Both utilize civilian vehicles and buildings (principally schools and hospitals), both are integrated into the entire socio-economic infrastructure of Lebanon. Both teach the children of Palestine and Lebanon to cluster around gunmen when Israeli soldiers return fire. Both teach their children to commit murder and suicide. Both encourage suicide amongst their own populace. Both murder unarmed civilians around the globe for attention.

Wake up.


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## vonGarvin (19 Jul 2006)

Bo said:
			
		

> Hmmm let`s see.....nearly 300 civilians killed and massive destruction to civilian infrastructure over the last week in Lebanon.
> You call that defense?
> I call it a massacre.


The only reason that Isreal continues to exist is because they can conduct "offensive action", which is sometime necessary to survive.

A massacre is what happened in NYC on 9/11.  

A massacre is what is happening in Haifa and in other places where Hezbollah is DELIBERATELY trying to murder women, men and children.


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## Bo (19 Jul 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> You haven't taken into fact that many of these 'villages' are Hezbollah strongholds, and they are not exactly 'innocent' civilians.
> 
> Perhaps you would like to look up some of the 'Laws of War' and what is said about purposely targetting 'Civilians'?



Straight from Amnesty International:

In Lebanon, it is civilians who are paying the heaviest price of the Israeli bombing campaign. At least 200 civilians, including dozens of children, are reported to be among some 215 Lebanese killed by Israeli air strikes in Lebanon since 12 July. In the same period, Hizbullah’s armed wing has killed 12 Israeli civilians, including one child, in rocket attacks into Northern Israel, as well as 12 soldiers. Hundreds of others, including many civilians, have been injured on both sides.

Israeli forces have carried out large-scale destruction of civilian infrastructure throughout Lebanon, deliberately targeting and destroying dozens of bridges, roads, powers stations, the international airport and ports, grain silos and other facilities. Tens of thousands of civilians have been forced to flee their homes, notably in South Lebanon and in the suburbs of the capital, Beirut. 

Hizbullah has also shown disregard for civilian lives by deliberately firing hundreds of katyusha and other rockets into towns and villages in Northern Israel, killing several Israeli civilians and injuring many more, and causing substantial damage to homes and other civilian properties.

http://news.amnesty.org/index/ENGIOR410122006

Dead civilians are dead civilians whether purposely targeted or not. Whether or not civilians were deliberately targeted for killing, the IDF’s systematic destruction of housing, roads, transport, electricity, water supplies, sewage—every necessity of life—is aimed at forcing ethnic Arabs to flee their lands. But oh, wait.....they can`t leave because all the roads and bridges are destroyed  :



> Perhaps you would like to look into the UN's declaring that the Lebanese Government destroy Hezbollah, and the fact that instead of that happening, Hezbollah candidates were elected to the Government?



UN? Did you say UN???

A list of UN Resolutions against "Israel" 

1955-1992: 
* Resolution 106: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for Gaza raid". 
* Resolution 111: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people". 
* Resolution 127: " . . . 'recommends' Israel suspends it's 'no-man's zone' in Jerusalem". 
* Resolution 162: " . . . 'urges' Israel to comply with UN decisions". 
* Resolution 171: " . . . determines flagrant violations' by Israel in its attack on Syria". 
* Resolution 228: " . . . 'censures' Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control". 
* Resolution 237: " . . . 'urges' Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees". 
* Resolution 248: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan". 
* Resolution 250: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem". 
* Resolution 251: " . . . 'deeply deplores' Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250". 
* Resolution 252: " . . . 'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital". 
* Resolution 256: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli raids on Jordan as 'flagrant violation". 
* Resolution 259: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation". 
* Resolution 262: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for attack on Beirut airport". 
* Resolution 265: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan". 
* Resolution 267: " . . . 'censures' Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem". 
*Resolution 270: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon". 
* Resolution 271: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem". 
* Resolution 279: " . . . 'demands' withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon". 
* Resolution 280: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli's attacks against Lebanon". 
* Resolution 285: " . . . 'demands' immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon". 
* Resolution 298: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's changing of the status of Jerusalem". 
* Resolution 313: " . . . 'demands' that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon". 
* Resolution 316: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon". 
* Resolution 317: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon". 
* Resolution 332: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon". 
* Resolution 337: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty". 
* Resolution 347: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli attacks on Lebanon". 
* Resolution 425: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon". 
* Resolution 427: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon. 
* Resolution 444: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces". 
* Resolution 446: " . . . 'determines' that Israeli settlements are a 'serious 
obstruction' to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention". 
* Resolution 450: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon". 
* Resolution 452: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories". 
* Resolution 465: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's settlements and asks all member 
states not to assist Israel's settlements program". 
* Resolution 467: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's military intervention in Lebanon". 
* Resolution 468: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of 
two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return". 
* Resolution 469: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's failure to observe the 
council's order not to deport Palestinians". 
* Resolution 471: " . . . 'expresses deep concern' at Israel's failure to abide 
by the Fourth Geneva Convention". 
* Resolution 476: " . . . 'reiterates' that Israel's claim to Jerusalem are 'null and void'". 
* Resolution 478: " . . . 'censures (Israel) in the strongest terms' for its 
claim to Jerusalem in its 'Basic Law'". 
* Resolution 484: " . . . 'declares it imperative' that Israel re-admit two deported 
Palestinian mayors". 
* Resolution 487: " . . . 'strongly condemns' Israel for its attack on Iraq's 
nuclear facility". 
* Resolution 497: " . . . 'decides' that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan 
Heights is 'null and void' and demands that Israel rescinds its decision forthwith". 
* Resolution 498: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon". 
* Resolution 501: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops". 
* Resolution 509: " . . . 'demands' that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon". 
* Resolution 515: " . . . 'demands' that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and 
allow food supplies to be brought in". 
* Resolution 517: " . . . 'censures' Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions 
and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon". 
* Resolution 518: " . . . 'demands' that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon". 
* Resolution 520: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's attack into West Beirut". 
* Resolution 573: " . . . 'condemns' Israel 'vigorously' for bombing Tunisia 
in attack on PLO headquarters. 
* Resolution 587: " . . . 'takes note' of previous calls on Israel to withdraw 
its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw". 
* Resolution 592: " . . . 'strongly deplores' the killing of Palestinian students 
at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops". 
* Resolution 605: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's policies and practices 
denying the human rights of Palestinians. 
* Resolution 607: " . . . 'calls' on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly 
requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention. 
* Resolution 608: " . . . 'deeply regrets' that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians". 
* Resolution 636: " . . . 'deeply regrets' Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians. 
* Resolution 641: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians. 
* Resolution 672: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for violence against Palestinians 
at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount. 
* Resolution 673: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United 
Nations. 
* Resolution 681: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's resumption of the deportation of 
Palestinians. 
* Resolution 694: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's deportation of Palestinians and 
calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return. 
* Resolution 726: " . . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of Palestinians. 
* Resolution 799: ". . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians 
and calls for their immediate return.  


What about Israeli war crimes against the inhabitants in Jenin? The Bush administration intervened with U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan to head off an investigation of Jenin as authorized by U.N. Security Council Resolution 1405 (19 April 2002).


Israel’s offensive against peace
War crimes 
By Alain Gresh 

"The 1949 Geneva Conventions state, in article 54 of their additional protocol: “Starvation of civilians as a method of warfare is prohibited”. It is also “prohibited to attack, destroy, remove or render useless objects indispensable to the survival of the civilian population”. That means that the Israeli army’s latest offensive in the occupied territories amounts to war crimes; it includes the blockade of the civilian population and their collective punishment, the bombing of Gaza’s $150m power station, depriving 750,000 Palestinians of electricity in the intense summer heat, and the kidnapping on the West Bank of 64 members of the political wing of Hamas, including eight cabinet ministers and 22 members of the Palestinian Legislative Council. On 5 July the Israeli government said it would expand its military operation in Gaza.

Israel has violated another principle of international law in this offensive: proportionality. Article 51 of the protocol forbids “an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.” Can saving one soldier’s life justify destruction on this scale?"




> Perhaps you should look deeper into the subject?
> 
> I know that there are some interesting articles being published these days......some will make it into this discusion.



Interesting articles indeed...


----------



## George Wallace (19 Jul 2006)

I think someone has exposed their biases.  A rather one-side tirade.   What about the list of UN Resolutions against "Lebanon"?


----------



## CanadaPhil (19 Jul 2006)

Wow, thats one hell of a little "unprepared" tirade there BO.

No agenda there huh?

Unfortunately, you overlooked (perhaps deliberately) the most important resolution of all regarding this whole issue.

No. 1559

I am sure that you must have the entire text of that one. Afterall, THAT ONE is not even a YEAR OLD.

Would you kindly post that one please.


----------



## GAP (19 Jul 2006)

CanadaPhil said:
			
		

> Wow, thats one hell of a little "unprepared" tirade there BO.
> No agenda there huh?



I don't supposed BO would care to list who sponsored and supported all those resolutions against Isreal would he? I didn't think so, he had a point to make, and no damn fact is going get in his way. oh well...


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## bcbarman (19 Jul 2006)

Gonna toss in my $0.02 (can't find the cents symbol on my computer)  

200 Civvies killed in Lebanon

12 Civvies killed in Israel. 

umm, why.  I know that Israel has better guns, planes and missiles, but they also have more accurate guns, missiles and planes.

Could it be that Israel knows that when there is a risk to its Civvy population, they pull their people out of direct harm.  Those Israeli Civilians that choose not to leave are given a rifle and told to remember their training, point in direction of enemy, squeeze trigger until red mist appears, then repeat.

What kind of culture uses children and non-coms as shrapnel catchers, leaving them in a potential area of fire.  If it was my kids 6 miles from the border, I do not care how much they want to visit Nana, we are leaving now!

This is a bad conflict, there will be no winner, just a lot of dead people, and heaven help us if one of those missing Russian nukes end up in the hands of Hamas or Hezbollah.  I seem to remember the quote of "destroy the Jewish state" that the mask wearing wackos are chanting, not go in there and take their land!

Sleeping UNDER the bed for the rest of the week.


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## paracowboy (19 Jul 2006)

_some free-form thoughts on the whole thing, some of which is plagiarized here and there to save me the typing. Yeah, I can be lazy, so what. Bite me. _ 

On the Whole Canadian Civilians in Lebanon thing: It's almost laughable how the press immediately started attacking Harper for not "acting quickly enough" to evacuate Canadians from Beirut. You know, the government issuing travel warnings should be enough for people to take into account that their destination my not be a pleasurable one if they follow through with their travel plans. Not only that, but when you defy a travel warning and find yourself in the middle of a shitstorm, the Canadian embassy staff and members of the military/government are going to risk their lives to drag your sorry carcass out of harm's way..... all because of not considering the full scope of a Travel Warning. And, if you're sticking around when the nation you're in decides to ramp up violence, when you have a passport, y'know what? You're on your own.

On the Media: I should be shocked at how the media is demonizing Israel for defending themselves against these terrorist scumbags. But I’m not. Every story mentions a "heavy handed" or "excessive" response towards Lebanon. I wonder if any of these media types have ever had to worry about something as simple as going to the grocery store, post office, or to the park with their kids without fearing some oxygen thief will blow themselves up as they stand in line. It just seems that no matter how many times HAMAS/Islamic Jihad/Hizbollah/Al-Aqsa carry out acts of Terror that kill innocent civilians, the media will immediately start licking the boots of the Arabs and condemn the Israelis. (And, of course, the United States/Halliburton/Bush/Vast Right Wing Conspiracy). It would seem our sadly confused young friend Bo falls into line here.

On Israel's targets: All legitimate military targets. The Israeli strategy appears to be designed to do two things. First, the Israelis are trying to prevent any supplies from entering Lebanon, including reinforcements. That is why they are attacking all coastal maritime facilities. Second, they are degrading the roads in Lebanon. That will keep reinforcements from reaching Hizbollah fighters engaged in the south. As important, it will prevent the withdrawal and redeployment of heavy equipment deployed by Hizbollah in the south, particularly their rockets, missiles and launchers. The Israelis are preparing the battlefield to prevent a Hizbollah retreat or manoeuvre.
The airport in Beirut and Lebanon's shipping ports are transportation hubs for the Syrian and Iranian intelligence and military officials who help train, equip, and run Hizbollah. These same transportation hubs, were they not disabled, would be used to re-supply Hizbollah. Israel also fears that its kidnapped soldiers will be smuggled to Iran or Syria. It would have been foolish and irresponsible NOT to have disabled Lebanon's transportation infrastructure. They are not targeting 'gated communities' or the local swimming pool. Are some innocents dying? Of course there are. The goal isn't civilians, hence the fliers dropped to warn the civilian population. The IDF makes every effort to keep civilians out of harm's way. Israel, like us, like the UK, like the US, like all civilized nations, go out of their way to not kill as many innocents as possible. THEIR ENEMIES DON'T. In the last 72 hours the Hizbollah terror organization has launched hundreds of rockets indiscriminately at Israeli cities putting over a million Israeli citizens within the range of missile fire. Responsibility for endangering civilian population rests on the Hizbollah terror organization which operates and launches missiles at Israel from populated civilian areas. They choose to operate among civilians, those civilians know they are terrorists, and support them anyway. Collateral damage sucks, but when you've got circumstances like Israel, what other options do you have? It isn't about gain, it's about surviving. 
Even the choice of weapons the enemy uses identifies their aims: mass civilian casualties. The Katyusha, as well as the Iranian-supplied Fajr variants, are artillery rockets, not missiles. They lack anything but the most rudimentary guidance system. Fired against urban targets or border settlements, they are nothing more than terror weapons. Suicide bombers, VBIEDs, and random shootings. Compare these to the Israeli tactics.

On the “Hizbollah is Democratically Elected” Crap: Just because a nation democratically elects leadership does not mean that we are going to support that leadership. Adolf Hitler gained a significant portion of the vote in Germany (he was never elected, that is myth). Mussolini was legally elected to power. The problem is promoting responsible Democracy. People are always going to vote for who they think would best benefit them. And in regions unfamiliar with democracy, the entire process is extremely open to corruption and subversion. That does not mean, of course, we should not encourage democracy. But, we must continue to monitor it, as we promote it. And, there are going to be times when we will have to squash a "democratically elected" government. Oh well.

On Israel and The Peace Process: Israel has been doing their part to bring peace in the region. Hell, the Israelis want peace more than anyone else in the area. They have the most to lose. They have gave up land to reach that goal. Time after time they’ve been attacked but people want to close their eyes to evil and say it is just a misunderstanding, or they blame Israel for existing and wanting to continue doing so. Israel, in my opinion, has done more than enough to try and allow peace to come to the region. It's very clear: Israel withdrew from Lebanon and Gaza of it's own accord, and left each region alone despite instigation from each. Back where I come from, we phrase it pretty simply: Don't Start No Shit, Won't Be None! 
As their PM asked (paraphrased) "What nation other than Israel is expected to sustain a thousand rocket attacks, and not destroy their attackers?"
Israel has been attacked from each region in the last month, opening a dual front war, and the terrorists themselves tied the two events together: they're lumping the Gaza captive with the 2 Lebanon captives. "Not escalating tensions" is United Nations code for "Israel is the one country in the world that must not be allowed to defeat its enemies." What keeps this conflict going, year after year, decade after decade, is the continued pressure on Israel to not deal, once and for all, with Hizbollah and HAMAS. Bringing back it’s three soldiers is not the sole, or even overriding, objective. Removing Hizbollah from Israel's northern border, deterring future attacks, and punishing Lebanon for hosting Hizbollah are the objectives. And rightly so. Israel is doing two things in Lebanon: Destroying Hizbollah, and making an impression on the Lebanese government such that Hizbollah will not be allowed to set up shop again.

On Hizbollah: Hizbollah is not just a terror organisation, which is easily picked apart in head-to-head combat once their terror tactics are removed. Hizbollah is one of the most, if not the most dangerous, professional, well-trained, and well-funded terror organisations in the world. And they know how to fight Israel, they've been doing it for years. (Funny how they don't go after their Arab brothers who are the ones that actually took their land and are keeping them down. Jordan killed more of them than the Israelis have. They are hate filled stupid pawns of the Arab nations around them.) 
They’ve been acting as the de facto authorities in Lebanon for decades now, and have taken up the slack that the real Lebanese government left. They organized charities, schools, hospitals, etc, while also funnelling charity money into arms and training. Attacking Lebanese infrastructure IS attacking Hizbollah. 
Iran has been funding Hizbollah for two reasons: as a proxy to continue their religious war against the Jews, and a distraction for the citizens of the Middle East so they don’t realize that the Theocrats are tyrants; and to continue spreading their influence throughout the Middle East in their attempts to recreate the Persian Empire.

On Iran and Syria’s parts in all this: I wonder if this wasn’t entirely engineered by Iran. They’ve gotta be feeling the pressure with losing ground in both Iraq and Afghanistan. If they can get Israel to attack Syria, they can react and keep the world distracted from their quest for nukes until they turn Tel Aviv into a mushroom cloud. 
The past few weeks before this all launched off had seen Iranian intelligence officers, in uniform teaching the Hizbollah guerrillas at their posts on the Israel/Lebanon border. Reports state there are at least 100 revolutionary guards who are advising and providing support for some of the more sophisticated weapons that have been used so far, including the anti-ship missile that struck the Israeli vessel. I've seen it credibly reported that Hizbollah receives about $100 million per year from Iran to keep its operation afloat, and many Hizbollah leaders receive military training and religious indoctrination in Iran. 
Given simple geography and the issues the Iranians have with keeping ANY aircraft in the air, I don't expect Iran to actually end up being much of a player in this. Various factions in Iran - various ayatollahs and their foundations, the Revolutionary Guards, the intelligence services - back different, often mutually hostile, horses in Iraq and Afghanistan. That doesn't make the Iranian government any less responsible for their activities; it just underscores how dangerous Iran can be in that it doesn't completely control its own home-grown militants, much less its proxies.
That's not to downplay Syria's role in the conflict. The real leadership of HAMAS hangs out in Damascus, protected by the Assad government. HAMAS had a part to play, I’m certain, with Mashal having his HQ in Damascus, and the timing as well as methodology used both in Gaza a few weeks ago by HAMAS and now, again, by Hizbollah. I doubt Syria is willing to get their asses kicked again, however, so I think that within a fairly short time, Hizbollah is going to find themselves with their necks hanging out all by themselves.
Iran and Syria recently signed a mutual-defence agreement, and Iran has been carrying on about how it will rain down fire on Israel if Syria is attacked. But if Israel attacked Iran and Iran fought back, it would be a causus belli to topple the theocracy. And if Iran didn't come to Syria's defence, it would be an absolutely humiliating blow to Iran's credibility in the region and among its own people.  

On Reasons for Hizbollah to Start Shit Now: I wonder if this hasn’t been started by Hizbollah to try and maintain control in Lebanon. With the recent gains of Democracy, and the strengthening of the Lebanese military by the US and France, I wonder if Hizbollah didn’t see an abrupt end to their current privileged way of life fast approaching. I believe if the funding from Iran and Syria dries up, and a democratic Lebanese Government continues to thrive they will become at best extinct, or just another minority political party no different from those already existent throughout the ME. 
This is, in large part, weakness of will on the part of the Lebanese Government. Lebanon is no better than the other Arab states in using Israel as a convenient scapegoat to divert attention from their own failings. Maybe far worse than most.


----------



## paracowboy (19 Jul 2006)

some pics of Hizbollah that may help to explain why there are inevitable civilian casualties (aside from the civilians they specifically target, that is) in their actions


----------



## Bo (19 Jul 2006)

CanadaPhil said:
			
		

> Wow, thats one hell of a little "unprepared" tirade there BO.
> 
> No agenda there huh?
> 
> ...



You can find it here in PDF format:  http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N04/498/92/PDF/N0449892.pdf?OpenElement

Well the UN is `gravely concerned`about the continued presence of armed militia in Lebanon. The also call for the disbanding and disarming of all Lebanese and non-Lebanese militia. These criteria have not been met.

What struck me as an interesting were points 2 and 6:

2.   Calls upon all remaining foreign forces to withdraw from Lebanon;

Israel has not been sitting idly by since its partial withdrawal from South Lebanon in 2000. It has not only continued to occupy parts of South Lebanon, but also has been violating Lebanese sovereignty, by air, sea, and land. 


6.   Calls upon all parties concerned to cooperate fully and urgently with the Security Council for the full implementation of this and all relevant resolutions concerning the restoration of the territorial integrity, full sovereignty, and political independence of Lebanon;

Israel has adamantly refused to give to Lebanon a map of the more than 400,000 land mines that it left behind in South Lebanon, and which continue to kill Lebanese children in the region. Hence they are in violation of not restoring the territorial integrity of Lebanon.

I guess both sides are violating UN Resolution 1559, eh CanadaPhil?


----------



## Bo (19 Jul 2006)

Wow Paracowboy, that sure is an informative, objective, unbiased opinion you posted  :

Great photos too! Look, those terrorist scumbags are using those terrorist loving civilians as human shields! Boy those crazy civies sure had it coming.


----------



## paracowboy (19 Jul 2006)

Bo said:
			
		

> Wow Paracowboy, that sure is an informative, objective, unbiased opinion you posted  :
> 
> Great photos too! Look, those terrorist scumbags are using those terrorist loving civilians as human shields! Boy those crazy civies sure had it coming.


Pot, pot, this is kettle, over.
Your irrational hatred of Israel is kinda making you a li'l bit blinkered.


----------



## CanadaPhil (19 Jul 2006)

Bo said:
			
		

> ................
> 
> Israel has not been sitting idly by since its partial withdrawal from South Lebanon in 2000. It has not only continued to occupy parts of South Lebanon, but also has been violating Lebanese sovereignty, by air, sea, and land.
> 
> ...



BULL####,  BULL#@$@,  BULL%^#$ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You have just proved to me what an apologist mouthpiece you are!

Israel has been FULLY WITHDRAWN from Lebanon for YEARS!! If you are claiming otherwise you are FULL OF IT.

400,000 mines???? You are saying that Israel has personally planted 400,000 mines?? Are you on crack??? If anyone has been supposedly killed by mines they belong to Hezbollah.


----------



## garb811 (19 Jul 2006)

Bo said:
			
		

> UN? Did you say UN???
> 
> A list of UN Resolutions against "Israel"
> 
> ...



You forgot to cite your cut and paste on this one so I'll do it for you: Middle East News and World Report, United Nations Resolutions Against Israel "1955-1992".  While a pretty impressive list, I personally would have used the one at this site, Action for UN Renewal, A list of UN Resolutions against "Israel" as it is much more comprehensive and much more subtle in its bias.  

Seems you cut and pasted the following as well from CounterPunch, Francis Boyle: Prosecute Israeli War Crimes at Jenin, although you did at least drop the "Jr" from the Bush Administration part so I guess it's technically not a total cut and paste:



> ? The Bush administration intervened with U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan to head off an investigation of Jenin as authorized by U.N. Security Council Resolution 1405 (19 April 2002).



You may wish to read the advice Mr Campbell gave another poster with regards to clearly citing ones posts.  He helpfully provides a link to the forum rules with regard to citations as well.

No need to thank me...always glad to help out someone in proofing their citations within their original submissions, even if their original thoughts actually only amount to 5 lines of text which add absolutely nothing to the discussion at hand.


----------



## snowy (19 Jul 2006)

Israel unleashed a furious military campaign on Lebanon's main airport, highways, railways, military bases and other targets, retaliating for scores of Hezbollah guerrillas rockets that rained down on Israel and reached as afar as Haifa, its third-largest city,for the first time.
The death toll in two days of fighting rose to 57 people with the sudden burst of violence sending shockwaves through a region already traumatised by Iraq and the ongoing battles in the Gaza strip between Israel and Hamas. It shattered the relative calm in Lebanon that followed Israel's pullout from its occupied zone in south Lebanon in 2000 and the withdrawal of Syrian forces last year.
Israel said it was determined to beat Hezbollah back and the militant fighters position they have held along the border since 2000. The Lebanese government, caught in the middle, pleaded for a cease-fire.(quote),"if the government of Lebanon fails to deploy its forces, as is expected of Sovereign government, we shall not allow Hezbollah forces to remain any further on the borders of the state of Israel,' Israel Defence Minister Amir Peretz said. Israeli warplanes stepped up the pressure early Friday, stirking targets in the southern suburbs of Beirut where Hezbollah has its political headquarters, security officials said. Impact of at least four missiles were heard, but there was no immediate word on casualties.
The raid came just a few hours after Israeli planes dropped leaflets in south Beirut warning residents to avoid areas where Hezbollah operates. Fears mounted among Arab and European government that violence in Lebanon could spiral out of control. Israeli analysts warned that Syria, which supports Hezbollah and playshost to Hamas political leader Khaled Mashaal, could be Israel's next target. Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said any Israeli attack against Syria would be an aggression on the whole Islamic world and warned of harsh reaction, the official Iranian news agency reported Friday. The agency said Ahmadinejad made the comments in a telephone call to Syrian president Bashar Assad. At the world United Nations, the United States blocked an Arab-backed resolutions that would have demanded Israel halt its military offensive in the Gaza strip. The first UN security council veto in nearly two years.
With Beirut's international airport closed after Israeli bombs ripped apart its runway, many tourists were trapped while others drove over the mountain to Syria- though Israeli warplanes struck the highway linking Beirut to the Syrian capital of Damascus early Friday, closing the country's main artery and further isolating Lebanon from the outside world.
Beirut residents said indoors leaving the streets of the capital largely empty. Others packed supermarkets to stock up on goods. long line found on gas stations, with many quickly running out of gas. Israel launched an offensive in Gaza against Hamas. whose fighters are hiding another Israeli soldier captured 2 weeks ago. Early Friday, Israeli aircraft stuck targets in several parts of Gaza and a Palestinian was killed when an Israeli tank shell struck his truck, officials said. There were no reports of injury in the air raids, which damaged a main road and offices and training camps of militants.
The shockwaves from the fighters  on two fronts began to be felt as oil prices surged Thusday to a record of $ 78 a barrel in world markets, also agitated by the thrust of supply disruptions in the middle east and beyond. (quote)" we are concerned about the fragile democracy in Lebanon," Bush said in Germany. The EU took a harsher tone, criticizing Israel for using what is called " disproportionate" force. EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana said he was planning a peace mission. The Arab league called an emergency meting of Foreign ministers in Cairo on Saturday, and Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas warned that I sorrel's Lebanon offensive"is raising our fears of a new regional war." Egypt lanced a diplomatic bid to resdue the crisis, aimed apparent filtration among moderate Arab nations that Hezbollah-- and by implication its top ally Syria-- had started the fight with Israel. Saudi Arabia, the Arab world's political heavyweight and economic powerhouse accused Hezbollah guerrillas-- without naming them-- of "inculcated adventures" that participated the latest Middle East Crisis.
"The Kingdom sees that it is time for those elements to alone shoulder the full responsibility for this irresponsible behavior and that the burden of ending the crisis falls on them alone," according to a Saudi official quoted by the Saudi press agency. Hezbollah's rocket attack on the port city of Haifa was its deepest duel strike into Northern Israel yet, no injuries were reported in Haifa, home to 270,000 residents and major oil refinery 30 miles south of the border. Still, the Israeli ambassador to the United States, Daniel Ayalon, called the attack "a major escalation."
"Those who fire into such a densely populated area will pay a heavy price," said David Baker, an official in the Israeli Prime Minister's office. Hezbollah deputy leader denied its fighters fired on Haifa, but Israel blamed the group, which had warned earlier in the day it would strike the city if Beirut were targeted. Israeli officials said it was a Katyusha rocket launched from southern Lebanon. witnesses also confirmed that a rocket hit the city.
The militants also fired rockets at four other northern Israeli towns, killing a 40- year old woman on her balcony in Nahariya and a man in Safad,. soon the Haifa attack, Israeli helicopters gunships raked fuel depots at Beirut's seaside airport with machineguns and missiles. The tanks exploded, sending gigantic flames into the night sky just outside Beirut. Earlier in the day, warplanes shut down the airport with strikes that pounded craters into all three of its runways, and Israeliwarships sealed Lebanon's ports. Among the Lebanese dead were a family of 10 and another family of seven, killed when strikes hit their homes in the southern village of  Duvier.
"its a massacre,' said Abu Talal, a 48-year-old resident who joined scores of Hezbollah supporters and townspeople at the funeral of suite cleric sheik Adel Akkash, who was killed along with his wife and 8 children, ages 3 months to 15 years.
Israel says it holds Labanon responsible for Hezbollah's snatching of the two soldiers, Ehud Goldwasser-31 and Eldad Regev-26. The Lebanese government insisted it had no prior knowledge of the move and did not condone it.... and even withdrew its ambassador to the U.S after he made comments seemingly in support of the guerrillas.
Hezbollah fighters operate with almost total autonomy in southern Lebanon, and the government has long resisted international pressure to disarm the group. Any attempt to disarm Hezbollah by force could lead to sectarian conflict.

note: my condolences to those Canadians who lost their lives.

cheers.


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## GAP (19 Jul 2006)

Snowy, you cut and pasted that from somewhere. Identify your sources and link to the site for copyright purposes.


----------



## 1feral1 (19 Jul 2006)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >If they return to their home countries to work/live etc, should they be required to renounce their citizenship?.
> 
> What an odd universe you inhabit.  Surely one's "home country" is the one in which one holds citizenship.  What are we doing that causes and permits inhabitants of foreign countries to obtain Canadian citizenship as a convenience, and how should it be stopped so that only people who want to make Canada "home" come to, and are admitted to, Canada?



I spent the first 35 years of my life being a true Canadian patriot, and I have lived overseas here in Australia for going on 12 years now.

Although I love my Canada with all my heart, and I still call those prairie wheatfields of southern Saskatchewan home, as where I am from, but I have adopted Australia, its customs and traditions, and I have over time grown to love this country just as much as dear ole Canada. My life and future are here now. So as sad as it sounds if I had to make a choice between passports, I would stay here in Australia.

Don't criticise me for such as decision, but you have to live it to understand the reasons why. I love both countries a 10/10, but I have made my choice.


Regards,

Wes


----------



## 1feral1 (19 Jul 2006)

Bo said:
			
		

> Hmmm let`s see.....nearly 300 civilians killed and massive destruction to civilian infrastructure over the last week in Lebanon.
> 
> You call that defense?
> 
> I call it a massacre.



Thats just the reality of war pal, get used to it. As a jr officer you should have enough commonsense to know that. People die, innocents in this case used as human shields by a cowardly terr org. I call that pisss weak and yellow.

Wes


----------



## CanadaPhil (19 Jul 2006)

Wesley 'Down Under' said:
			
		

> ....................
> 
> So as sad as it sounds if I had to make a choice between passports, I would stay here in Australia.



That's OK Wes, I wont criticise. In fact, I once thought that if I had to choose another place to live, OZ came to mind FIRST! 

Whats not to like.... We are both former colonies, the weather is not that bad, and the girlz are super cute! Hell, if I could just get my head around the toilets flushing the wrong way and the beer not tasting as good, I"M THERE!


----------



## GAP (19 Jul 2006)

CanadaPhil said:
			
		

> Hell, if I could just get my head around the toilets flushing the wrong way and the beer not tasting as good, I"M THERE!



Uh...oh...I thought it flushed that way because it was beer...yeah, did taste kinda funny.


----------



## aluc (20 Jul 2006)

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&pubid=968163964505&cid=1153389184842&col=968705899037&call_page=TS_News&call_pageid=968332188492&call_pagepath=News/News

France offers Canada evacuation help
Jul. 20, 2006. 08:08 AM

PARIS (AP) — French president Jacques Chirac on Thursday offered a helping hand to Canada — which has up to 50,000 citizens in Lebanon — to evacuate the country under siege.

“(Chirac) was very generous and spontaneously expressed the wish that we collaborate and, if the need is there, if possible, he offered French collaboration so that we can move people out,” said *Quebec Prime Minister Jean Charest*, after a meeting with Chirac.

The first boatload of Canadians evacuating Lebanon has arrived in Larnaca, Cyprus, as thousands of others in Beirut are anxiously waiting for their turn to leave.

Some 261 of an estimated 50,000 Canadians in Lebanon disembarked from the 62-metre Blue Dawn Thursday morning. An additional four ships arrived in Beirut Thursday to evacuate more Canadians to Turkey.

France is evacuating its citizens and others on a Greek ferry to Cyprus. The first group of nearly 500 arrived in Paris on a special Air France flight on Tuesday.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper made a stopover in Cyprus following his visit earlier this week to France, and was to pick up 120 evacuees from Lebanon and flying them home.

His administration has come under criticism at home for not moving quickly enough to evacuate the 30,000 of the 50,000 Canadian-Lebanese who have registered with the embassy in Beirut for evacuation.

Canada lost eight citizens to an Israeli air strike on Sunday, all members of a Montreal family killed when a shell hit their home in southern Lebanon.

Charest said Quebecois would be coming home within days and “we will be there to help them.”

Charest, speaking to reporters, came down in favour of an international force in Lebanon, which has been under Israeli attack for a ninth day following the militant Hezbollah’s abduction of two Israeli soldiers.

But, “it is on the ground that we must judge the appropriate moment to deploy” such force, he added.



PM Charest of Quebec.....hmmm did I miss something while I was sleeping last night?


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## GAP (20 Jul 2006)

Just reread the article...it says Quebec Premier Jean Charest


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## George Wallace (20 Jul 2006)

Octavianus said:
			
		

> PM Charest of Quebec.....hmmm did I miss something while I was sleeping last night?



Not really.  Translate "Premier" of (pick any province) into French and it will come out as Premier Minister which would translate back to English as Prime Minister.


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## GAP (20 Jul 2006)

Now that makes sense..


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## aluc (20 Jul 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Not really.  Translate "Premier" of (pick any province) into French and it will come out as Premier Minister which would translate back to English as Prime Minister.



   Ahh...thank you kind sir! Lost in translation....


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## George Wallace (20 Jul 2006)

Now...If there are 50,000 Canadians in Lebanon, and 50,000 French, and how many American, and how many British, and Australian, and......Are there any Lebanese left?


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## Remius (20 Jul 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Now...If there are 50,000 Canadians in Lebanon, and 50,000 French, and how many American, and how many British, and Australian, and......Are there any Lebanese left?



No.  They are all in Canada, France, America, England and Australia.


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## snowy (20 Jul 2006)

GAP said:
			
		

> Snowy, you cut and pasted that from somewhere. Identify your sources and link to the site for copyright purposes.



I am sorry sir, but i do not have the web site address, and i did not cut and paste this artical, i found this artical in a newspaper.......... i apologise if i may have broken any rules......... it will not happen again.

cheers: snowy


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## Brad Sallows (20 Jul 2006)

>I spent the first 35 years of my life being a true Canadian patriot, and I have lived overseas here in Australia for going on 12 years now.

>Don't criticise me for such as decision,

No-one should.  You didn't go to Australia to establish a get-out-of-jail-free card.


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## Jarnhamar (20 Jul 2006)

I just watched a bunch of Canadians on TV bitching because of the conditions they had to face. I'm guessing on the ship?

We didn't have AC
People were vommiting
We ran out of food
The bathrooms were disgusting
Some people had headstroke


Wow thats almost like you were fleeing a combat zone in order to save your lives. No AC?  Gross bathrooms? Thats unacceptable!


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## Cloud Cover (20 Jul 2006)

Pretty good summation of how at least part of this has been developing for months. CTV Article reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act. Note the last line- it seesm Hezbollah is getting in close prximity to UN bases, prmpting Israel to attack "out of tactical necessity." 
Hidden message there boys.


http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060718/mideast_lebanon_UN_060716/20060718/

A Canadian soldier's report from South Lebanon
Updated Wed. Jul. 19 2006 10:58 AM ET


After the kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers by Hezbollah, and the subsequent bombing campaign began against Lebanon, we received an email from Major Paeta Hess-von Kruedener, a Canadian Forces soldier serving with the UN in South Lebanon. 


"If you are interested in a Canadian perspective on the events of yesterday and what is happening here in the area I am serving in, I can provide some concise info for you about the current situation," he wrote. 


With the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, Major Hess-von Kruedner is the only Canadian serving as a United Nations Military Observer in Lebanon.  He is stationed at the UN base about 10 kilometres from where the Syrian, Lebanese and Israeli borders meet. The UN's mission there is to report ceasefire violations.

Here is his full email, written July 18, with background on the mission and the current situation: 



Major Hess-von Kruedener in South Lebanon in March, meeting with one of the Mouktars of a Druze village called Bourhoz. "Maj H.v.K" as he signs his emails, is an infantry officer with 20 years service. He's done five earlier operational tours (in Cyprus, twice in Bosnia, Congo, and now South Lebanon)


We have had a brief "tactical Pause" in the action here, so I am taking this opportunity to provide you some information on the situation here in south Lebanon. At the outset, I will provide you with a brief background on who I am, What the Org and Mission is here and then answer some of the bank of questions you provided.

Background

My name is Major Paeta Hess-von Kruedener, and I am an Infantry Officer with the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, of the Canadian Forces. I was sent to this Mission (United Nations Truce and Supervision Organization -UNTSO) last October 05, and am currently serving as an unarmed Military Observer. I have now been stationed here in south Lebanon for Approximately nine months. 


I am currently writing to you from the UN Patrol Base Khiam, which is situated approximately 10 km from the nexus of the Israeli, Lebanese and Syrian Borders. I am serving with Observer Group Lebanon, or OGL, and I am on Team Sierra. The Patrol Base is named after the village it is situated in, El Khiam, which sits on one of four ridges which dominates both the Hasbani River valley, which then changes to the Houla Valley when it crosses the Lebanon-Israel border 10 km to our south.


A Canadian soldier mans a guard tower at Camp Ziouani, Golan Heights, in 2002. Thousands of Canadians have served in this border region since 1958. (Photo: MCpl Frank Hudec, Canadian Forces Combat Camera

The patrol base was initially an observation post and was built in 1972, but was later destroyed in 1976 during the fighting between the PLO and the South Lebanese Army (SLA). In 1978 it was rebuilt again and manned by elements of the Norwegian Battalion serving with UNIFIL. In 1980, Observer Group Lebanon (OGL) assumed responsibility for it. Historically, the area of the El Khiam and Hasbani valleys to the north and the Houla valley to the south have been the main axis for invasion in to Lebanon and Palestinian Territories.

Mission

The mission of Team Sierra and OGL within the greater context of UNTSO is to maintain the integrity of theWithdrawal Line (Blue Line), and report on any and all violations or activities that threaten the cease-fire and international peace and security here along the Lebanese/Israeli border, and Israeli Occupied Lebanon, and to support the UNSC resolution 1559, within our mission mandate.

Information Requested

(1) Currently, there are several nationalities that are here on the patrol base with me. I am serving with an Australian, Chinese, Finnish, Austrian, and Irish Officers. They come from various different backgrounds, levels of experience and services (Army, Navy and Air Force) from within their militaries. 

(2)  I have been here for nine months of a one-year tour of duty. Since I have arrived here in Lebanon, this current incident is the fourth I have seen and by far the most spectacular and intensive. 


The first was 21 Nov 05, when the Hezbollah tried to capture IDF soldiers from an IDF observation position overlooking the Wazzani river near the town of Ghajjar on the Blue Line. This action was unsuccessful and resulted in the deaths of the Hezbollah raiding force.

On 01 Feb 06, a young shepherd boy was Killed by an IDF patrol near an abandon goat farm called Bastarra. Hassan Nasrallah (note: Hezbollah's leader) vowed that there would be consequences to this action. Team Sierra was tasked on 2 Feb 06, to assist in the investigation of the incident, and we sent one team to do so while the other team conducted its normal mobile patrolling activities.

On 03 Feb 06, a limited engagement took place initiated by the Hezbollah on several of the IDF defensive positions located in occupied Lebanon.

Then on 28 May, the Islamic Jihad (PLO) fired rockets from South Lebanon, into Israel, which elicited an immediate aerial bombardment of positions near our patrol base and in the Bekka valley.
(3) Our Team's normal operational activities are to plan, and execute daily vehicle and foot patrols of the Blue Line area within our area of responsibility. Unfortunately, with the current artillery and aerial bombing campaign being carried out by the IDF/IAF, it is not safe or prudent for us to conduct normal patrol activities. Currently, we are observing and reporting on all activities in our area of responsibility, with specific attention to activities along the Blue Line, which is clearly visible from our hilltop position.

(4) Team Sierra is currently observing both IDF/IAF and Hezbollah military clashes from our vantage point which has a commanding view of the IDF positions on the Golan mountains to our east and the IDF positions along the Blue Line to our south, as well as, most of the Hezbollah static positions in and around our patrol Base. It appears that the lion's share of fighting between the IDF and Hezbollah has taken place in our area. On the night of 16 July, at 2125 hrs, a large firefight broke out between the Hezbollah and the IDF near a village called Majidyye and lasted for one hour and 40 minutes.

(5) Based on the intensity and volatility of this current situation and the unpredictability of both sides (Hezbollah and Israel), and given the operational tempo of the Hezbollah and the IDF, we are not safe to venture out to conduct our normal patrol activities. We have now switched to Observation Post Duties and are observing any and all violations as they occur.

This is all the information of a non-tactical nature that I can provide you. I cannot give you any info on Hezbollah position, proximity or the amount of or types of sorties the IAF is currently flying. Suffice to say that the activity levels and operational tempo of both parties is currently very high and continuous, with short breaks or pauses. Please understand the nature of my job here is to be impartial and to report violations from both sides without bias. As an Unarmed Military Observer, this is my raison d'etre.

What I can tell you is this: we have on a daily basis had numerous occasions where our position has come under direct or indirect fire from both artillery and aerial bombing. The closest artillery has landed within 2 meters of our position and the closest 1000 lb aerial bomb has landed 100 meters from our patrol base. This has not been deliberate targeting, but has rather been due to tactical necessity.

I thank you for the opportunity to provide you with some information from the front lines here in south Lebanon.

Maj Hess-von Kruedener


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## CanadaPhil (20 Jul 2006)

Ghost778 said:
			
		

> .......... No AC?  Gross bathrooms? Thats unacceptable!



For some inexplicable reason the old Maple Leaf Gardens came to mind. Anyone remember the communal piss troughs that weren't fit for cows to go in. Good enough for hockey fans I guess though.


----------



## The Bread Guy (21 Jul 2006)

Israeli kids signing arty shells destined for Hezbollah.....

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20060719&articleId=2754

Pro-Arab blogs upset, but here's the REST of the story.....
http://ontheface.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2006/7/20/2142505.html


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## CanadaPhil (21 Jul 2006)

That still pales in comparison to pictures of Islamic extremists dressing their little kids up in mock suicide vests.


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## aluc (21 Jul 2006)

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1153475346521&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154



Evacuees arrive in Ottawa
Passengers end long Odyssey that included sea voyage to Cyprus
Jul. 21, 2006. 09:23 AM
HEBA ALY AND GRAHAM FRASER
STAFF REPORTERS

OTTAWA - Two radically different tales emerged from the passengers who disembarked the first plane to land in Canada with those fleeing the war in Lebanon.

At 4:00 a.m. today, in the middle of a dark, clear night, Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s plane landed in Ottawa with 87 Canadian evacuees, who – tired but relieved – told their stories.

One was a story of gratefulness for a prime minister who “did the best he could.”

The other: a story of anger over what they experienced before they boarded the magical flight from Cyprus.

“Once we were in Cyprus, the Canadian authorities did a great, great, great job getting us to here. It was more than we expected,” said Lemira Omran, of Woodbridge, referring to the supply of food, the organization of the flight and the overall treatment of the evacuees. Her three children – aged 6 to 12 – surrounded her as she checked into a room at the Holiday Inn on Cooper St. in Ottawa.

The federal government is putting up dozens of Torontonians and evacuees from other parts of the province for one day, until they can make arrangements to find their way home from Ottawa at their own expense.

Harper praised the work done by Canadian officials to help evacuate Canadians from Lebanon when he landed this morning, but some of his staff blamed the Canadian ambassador in Beirut for the confusion, saying he was a Liberal appointment.

“To be frank, my main concern right now with the evacuation effort is that we’ve got a lot of federal employees working very long, very difficult hours themselves,” Harper said. “I’m just concerned they’re going to burn out before this is over.”

Evacuee Liliane El-Helou said she had complained about the organization of the evacuation in Beirut to Harper on the plane.

“One of his people ... said to me ‘This is a Liberal-appointed ambassador,’” she told reporters. “Well I am sorry. If this is an excuse, and it is a silly excuse I think, well remove him now, and appoint someone who is more qualified.”

Louis de Lorimier is a career diplomat who, previous to becoming Ambassador to Lebanon, served in Abidjan, Seoul and Paris. He also worked as a ministerial liaison in the office of Joe Clark when he was Secretary of State for External Affairs.

Harper said that the government has pulled together staff from around the Middle East region to deal with the demands of the evacuation.

He said that the flight itself was uneventful.

“It was very quiet,” he told reporters at the airport. “Mostly people were very tired. They were in very good spirits, considering, but they were very tired. The kids, of course, went to sleep like babies, but most people rested. It was kind of like a normal long transcontinental voyage, except with a little extra measure of satisfaction for us, and I think for them.”

Most of the Canadians who returned here after days of waiting and travel had nothing but praise for the prime minister with whom they shared a quiet ride home.

“He tried to do his best,” said Rouba Maaluf, 21, of Montreal, as she sat in her wheelchair waiting to go home with Ottawa relatives. “He say that he’s sorry but he do his best.”

Elie Khalil was more than grateful as he awaited his wife and young children at the airport, flowers in hand. He said he didn’t care how long it took because in the end, “these guys brought my family back,” he said, barely able to hide his joy. “It’s big thanks.”

Apart from a few critical comments, passengers reported no outbursts at the prime minister during the flight, where he casually chatted with some of the passengers and shook hands with each one as they got off the plane. For the most part, “everyone had no energy to be angry,” said Joe Azzi, 18, of Ottawa.

But as they walked through the cameras and spotlights with their luggage and children, hugging the family members that awaited them, most evacuees couldn’t remove the bad memories from their minds.

When asked what message he wanted to give the prime minister, 19-year-old Shady Abboud held back in his criticisms, as his mother insisted in Arabic “thank him, thank him.” Others were more frank.

“It was hell to arrive,” said Ottawa’s Rawad Antoun, 20. It took three days to evacuate the first 250, he said, noting there are 25,000 Canadians who want to leave the war-torn country. “If it goes at this speed, it’ll take them months to get everyone out.”

“It was chaotic. It was insulting,” said Woodbridge’s Omran, as she remembered the fainting and vomiting on a crowded boat from Beirut, with a grueling hot sun shining down on them during the day and cold air keeping them company at night. She used a tablecloth to keep her children warm as they slept on the deck. The food ran out before she and her family could feed themselves during the 17-hour trip. She scrounged up extras for her children from other families.

“I felt like an animal on this trip,” said El-Helou, who made the trip with her teenaged son and daughter and had been traveling for 51 hours straight. “My goal during this trip was to show them the good image of Lebanon. But what happened in this trip, they saw a bad image of war and a bad image of Canada.”

The passengers could only guess as to why they were the lucky ones to be chosen for the boat to Cyprus and subsequently the first of two flights to Canada – the other landed in Montreal later this morning. Many were women with young children, although a number of young men in their late teens or early twenties were amongst those who arrived.

And while they couldn’t be happier to finally be home, some still had weights on their shoulders for those they left behind.

For Omran, it was her elderly parents.

“I lived through the civil war, I lived through the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982 and I know how horrible it was, so I didn’t want the kids to go through what I did. I couldn’t leave my parents, but at the same time, I couldn’t sacrifice my kids. I had to bring them here.”

Ontario Health Minister George Smitherman was at the Canada Reception Centre - the reception area for official flights.

“We wanted to convey to anyone returning from Lebanon that Ontario is ready to support people as required,” he said. “We’ve created an exemption for anyone returning so there will be no three-month (residency) requirement to wait for benefits related to health care to kick in.”




Well, getting over 25,000 people out of anywhere would seem to be a very daunting task.....wouldn't it. Did any of us expect there to be over 25,000 "Canadians" living anywhere other than Canada! Then some of the passengers were "insulted", and felt like "animals" because they weren't evacuated  in style. What did they expect ....the Queen Mary II , or Carnival Cruise lines to come and get them. They should be thankful someone came and evacuated them to begin with. I mean, you're in the middle of a war ravaged country and instead of being grateful that someone from "another" country (Canada -  note sarcasm) rescued you and your family, you choose to  complain about the food and accommodations on the ship.  The whiners should be more than content that they were not killed over there. 

Then, they proceed to comment on how what's occurring in Lebanon was horrible.....and the trip to Cypress was equally as horrifying, because the country some people take advantage of (Canada) did not accommodate them in style .  They have slighted the country that has gracefully taken them and they're families in. The country that has provided numerous social services, access to fruitful employment, a passport which  affords them easy travel throughout the world,  a peaceful and tolerant society in  which  these people don't seem to be grateful for, etc.

 Now, the _piece de resistance_.... Premier McGuinty has graciously decided to wave the three month residency requirement so the people that have abandoned this country can take advantage of our generosity again.   

I apologise for the rant, yet after watching the news and reading a few articles this morning, I'm a little pissed at peoples' reaction to this fiasco.


----------



## GAP (21 Jul 2006)

We are not the only ones lifting people out, but Australia does not seem to have the critcizm flying about and actually pretty calm about it all.

Massive airlift to save Aussies
From:  From staff writers and wires  July 21, 2006  
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,19861326-401,00.html

THE Federal Government is planning a major operation to airlift Australians out of Cyprus, swinging military and commercial planes into action to bring home thousands of evacuees from Lebanon.

As the evacuation from Lebanon gathers momentum, the Government has now turned its attention to what to do with the thousands of Australian citizens massing in Cyprus. 
The island has been struggling to cope with a huge influx of people arriving aboard ships from Lebanon, which is under bombardment as Israel attacks Hezbollah militants in their southern Lebanese strongholds.

Another 100 Australians arrived in Limassol aboard the British warship HMS Bulwark today, and thousands more are expected to follow over the weekend on chartered ferries
More on link


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## CanadaPhil (21 Jul 2006)

Octavianus said:
			
		

> “He tried to do his best,” said Rouba Maaluf, 21, of Montreal, as she sat in her wheelchair waiting to go home with Ottawa relatives. “He say that he’s sorry but he do his best.”
> 
> Elie Khalil was more than grateful as he awaited his wife and young children at the airport, flowers in hand. He said he didn’t care how long it took because in the end, “these guys brought my family back,” he said, barely able to hide his joy. “It’s big thanks.”



Wow!, I guess some editor fell asleep at the switch there?? Some actual quotes from grateful people?? Uh oh, must be some right wing conspiracy


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## Remius (21 Jul 2006)

I watched a CBC report last night and nearly jumped at the screen in reaction to what some people were saying.  Luckily I calmed down when they showed a few grateful people.  One lady was quite satified with the accomodations because the 1st time she fled Lebanon she was in a sea container.  Oh yeah, I also chuckled when a woman berated another  "You want to be Lebanese stay where you are, if you want to be Canadian stay in line!"  Nice.


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## CanadaPhil (21 Jul 2006)

Octavianus said:
			
		

> “It was chaotic. It was insulting,” said Woodbridge’s Omran, as she remembered the fainting and vomiting on a crowded boat from Beirut, with a grueling hot sun shining down on them during the day and cold air keeping them company at night. She used a tablecloth to keep her children warm as they slept on the deck. The food ran out before she and her family could feed themselves during the 17-hour trip. She scrounged up extras for her children from other families.



Well, what was it?? Was it hot? or was it cold? 

So its not that there was NO FOOD & WATER, but that inconsiderate fellow evacuees were hoarding it for themselves. Hmmmmmmm.



			
				Octavianus said:
			
		

> “I felt like an animal on this trip,” said El-Helou, who made the trip with her teenaged son and daughter and had been traveling for 51 hours straight. “My goal during this trip was to show them the good image of Lebanon. But what happened in this trip, they saw a bad image of war and a bad image of Canada.”[/u]



F%^#   Y&* !


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## George Wallace (21 Jul 2006)

I wonder if they would have been as happy, had they been on the Beaches of Normandy in 1939 and rescued by rowboats, or had to march for miles to escape as many did in Europe in both World Wars, or those in the Phillipines, or Rwanda, or any of the many other war zones in past history.  Would they have complained about the 'Cattle Cars' that many were in in many past occasions...... 

Ah! The privileged.  The "spoiled" masses of demanding Canadians.  Gracious at all times.   :


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## CanadaPhil (21 Jul 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Ah! The privileged.  The "spoiled" masses of demanding Canadians.  Gracious at all times.   :



Oh well, I think I am going to get a little cynical now. 

I think its only a matter of hours before we see the first of a string of ingrates show up at a live "news" conference on CBC "News"world in the company of Montreal based ambulance chasers.... errrr... lawyers, announcing a multi-million dollar class action lawsuit for their horrible pain & suffering.


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## Jarnhamar (21 Jul 2006)

> “My goal during this trip was to show them the good image of Lebanon. But what happened in this trip, they saw a bad image of war and a bad image of Canada.”



Bad image of Canada? Then go back to Lebanon.


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## Gunnar (21 Jul 2006)

Don't you just hate when your country rescues you from a war zone, and there are no margaritas on the Lido Deck?

 ;D


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## big bad john (21 Jul 2006)

This is where the evacuated Brits slept.  :  HMS Illustrious ship's company prepare temporary beds in the hangar for oncoming evacuees [Picture: Royal Navy]


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## aluc (21 Jul 2006)

http://www.torontosun.ca/News/Columnists/Worthington_Peter/2006/07/21/1695081.html

  	
Convenient Canadians
By PETER WORTHINGTON



What in heaven's name are 50,000 Canadians doing in Lebanon? Surely they can't all be there for a wedding, or a family reunion, or an academic conference, or even as tourists? The estimated 50,000 are roughly 20% of all the Lebanese who have become Canadian citizens -- about 250,000 of 'em.

Put another way, there are twice as many Canadians in Lebanon as there are Canadians in the army. Are they all in Lebanon for a visit? Hardly.

Most are dual-citizenship Canadians who've chosen to return to the motherland to live as Lebanese -- until trouble strikes and then they want the Canadian government to rescue them, not the Lebanese government.

Under terms of Canada's dual citizenship policy, the country in which people choose to live, or to visit, takes precedence over Canadian law -- which isn't to say we, as a country, shouldn't help people in trouble.

Frankly, any dual-citizenship Canadian who chooses to live in one of the danger areas of the world should not expect Canada to rush to his aid and rescue him and relatives when danger threatens.

Instead, appeal to the government you prefer to live under, rather than the Canadian one.

Now Canada is chartering seven ships and a bunch of aircraft to rescue these citizens, many of whom have chosen not to live in Canada. Does Canada have an obligation to be responsible for them? The cost to taxpayers of removing tens of thousands from Lebanon is enormous.

How many, one wonders, of these people will move back to Lebanon when the crisis is over and security is restored -- assuming it ever will be in Lebanon?

The view that "a Canadian is a Canadian" and all should be treated equally may need revising.

Why should the government be responsible for naturalized citizens who return to live in a dangerous country in which they are also citizens?

Tourists or short-term visitors are in a different category.

Some MPs have suggested Canadians in Lebanon whose principal country of residence is Canada, should be rescued first, since those whose primary home is Lebanon are better able to survive than visitors.

Although Lebanese have settled in Canada for well over a century and are productive citizens, Canada's current policies risk clogging the country with people who shouldn't be here and whom we don't want.

Already, we won't deport terrorist suspects or criminals if there's fear they may be executed or tortured in their birth country. This means virtually no bad guy can be deported to the Middle East.

Canadians of Syrian or Iranian descent should avoid visiting Damascus or Tehran where they're in danger of being grabbed on phony charges -- which in no way is to suggest that the Lebanese Canadians being evacuated have done anything illegal.

We already have a self-described al-Qaida family in Canada, with one member charged with murdering an American soldier in Afghanistan. Many feel this family doesn't deserve to be Canadian, since their allegiance is to an enemy of Canada.

Canada accepts that dual citizens have special rights. But the policy needs fine-tuning. It can be argued -- as some countries do -- that allegiance should be to one country, not two or three.

If someone wants to be a Canadian, that person should give up citizenship in his birth country.

An exception should be made with the U.S. on grounds that we are geographically, traditionally and culturally close.

But for other immigrants, the choice should be one citizenship and one passport.

It's too late now for Lebanon, where 50,000 Canadians outnumber Americans by a two-to-one ratio.

Ludicrous. Change the law before the next crisis!


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## GAP (21 Jul 2006)

The Americans have been and are busy too. 

USS Nashville Joins Lebanon Evacuation Operation
By Jim Garamone  American Forces Press Service  WASHINGTON, July 20, 2006 

 The USS Nashville has joined the fleet of ships evacuating U.S. citizens from Lebanon, defense officials said today. 
The Nashville, a dock landing ship, arrived in the joint operating area off Beirut yesterday, and landing craft began ferrying refugees from Beirut to the ship. The ship will deliver the citizens to safe haven in Cyprus--about eight hours away by ship--later today, officials said. 

DoD officials expect the ship to carry 1,200 evacuees. State Department officials said the operation will continue until all Americans who wish to leave the country have done so. State Department and Defense personnel have evacuated more than 1,600 American citizens from Lebanon since the operation began July 16. 

Ships and aircraft transported 1,200 citizens out of Lebanon to Cyprus yesterday. Of these, 161 "special needs" Americans left via choppers, and 1,066 sailed on the Orient Queen. DoD chartered the Greek-owned vessel for the operation. 

In addition to the USS Nashville, the Saudi-owned, Panamanian-flagged Rahmah, with a capacity of 1,400 passengers, arrived in the region and will begin ferrying U.S. citizens to Cyprus tomorrow. The Italian ship Vittoria, with a capacity of around 330 passengers, also will begin operations in the next few days. 

DoD officials said five more U.S. Navy ships will arrive at the scene in the next few days. The USS Iwo Jima will join the operation July 22. Officials expect to move around 4,000 evacuees tomorrow. More on link


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## GAP (21 Jul 2006)

From the Israeli point of view: 


The innocent bystander myth
By EVELYN GORDON   Jul. 19, 2006   Jerusalem Post 
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153291950870&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Excerpt from about 1/2 way down
It is the EU's distorted view of the war as being strictly between Israel and Hezbollah, with the Beirut government a mere innocent bystander, that causes it to view the blockade instead as an unfair punishment of an entire country for the acts of a few rogue terrorists. 

In reality, Hezbollah's attack was far from a rogue action committed in defiance of the government: The Lebanese government has actively supported it, in both word and deed. 

First, of course, Hezbollah remains a member of the government, with seats in the cabinet. Admittedly, it probably launched last week's attack without its coalition partners' knowledge or consent. But in any normal country, a junior coalition member that attacked a neighboring country without its partners' consent would be swiftly disavowed and ousted from the government. 

Instead, the Lebanese government has passionately defended Hezbollah's actions on the international stage. At an Arab League meeting on Saturday, for instance, Saudi Arabia's foreign minister, reportedly backed by representatives of Egypt, Jordan, Kuwait, Iraq, the Palestinian Authority, the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain, lambasted Hezbollah's assault as "inappropriate and irresponsible." But Lebanese Foreign Minister Fawzi Salloukh, far from agreeing, presented a draft resolution defending the attack. 
More on link


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## tamouh (21 Jul 2006)

> In reality, Hezbollah's attack was far from a rogue action committed in defiance of the government: The Lebanese government has actively supported it, in both word and deed.



Nothing further from the truth, and I've listened/read every interview PM Siniora had. This is the latest:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/741125.html


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## Jarnhamar (21 Jul 2006)

If he says it in an interview it has to be the truth.

 :


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## CanadaPhil (21 Jul 2006)

The Lebanese government argument has absolutely no merit as far as I am concerned.

Lebanon is supposedly a sovereign nation. Yet they permit an element of their society to openly advocate the destruction of another nation, allow them to build up a separate army within their nation, ELECT members of this group to their "government" and then claim total ignorance of any such acts by this group and say "well we don't have the means to take them on so its not our fault and we should not be suffering because of them"

BS!!

I'm sorry but reality hurts. If Lebanon allowed itself to continue with this cancer for the last 2 decades, and pretend everything was hunky dory and look the other way, it HAS TO ACCEPT SOME OF THE RESPONSIBILITY.

So instead of facing a hard reality and trying to deal with it, they just put on blinders and rebuilt buildings and roads that had been destroyed in the civil wars as if they were now living in some fanciful utopia. 

I'm sorry folks. Just because you like to believe that you are the " Paris of the Middle East", doesn't make it so.

I know this now a rant, but here is a simple little example.....

Imagine if you will that after the fall of the Soviet Union, there remained a heavily armed, hard core group of radicals who did not give a rats tail about anything. Maybe, they controlled a swath of territory between the borders of Russia proper and Ukraine and had access to weapons from former bases within this area or from "sympathetic" folks who thought they were just a nice bunch of fellows.

Well one day,this group is so hardcore that they decide to fire some ICBM's that happened to go "missing" from the former Soviet arsenal. A couple of American and European cities are now burning cinders. Does anyone think that it would be OK for the new Russian government to now claim that......."Hey its not our fault. We did not have the means to confront them. Please don't retaliate against us Mr. President"

Please. You can't have it both ways.

If  Lebanon claims that they have NO control of an element of their society that even happens to hold seats in their government, then I am sorry but, they are NOT a sovereign nation.


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## Gunnar (21 Jul 2006)

Phil has pretty much summed it up.  Lebanon is the nation equivalent of the UN.


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## toddskam (21 Jul 2006)

CanadaPhil said:
			
		

> I'm sorry but reality hurts. If Lebanon allowed itself to continue with this cancer for the last 2 decades, and pretend everything was hunky dory and look the other way, it HAS TO ACCEPT SOME OF THE RESPONSIBILITY.



Sort of like Canada with the separatists, eh?


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## Bobbyoreo (21 Jul 2006)

Every chat I come too...there you are toddskam....trolling...trolling away...man are you a tool!!


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## JBP (21 Jul 2006)

toddskam said:
			
		

> Sort of like Canada with the separatists, eh?



Except our Seperatists didn't seperate and didn't start wars with another nation and start killing people...

 :

Baseless BS you come up with is just amazing...What planet are you from???


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## CanadaPhil (21 Jul 2006)

toddskam said:
			
		

> Sort of like Canada with the separatists, eh?





I'm not even sure I know what the hell you are trying to say.

BTW, You aren't even Canadian are you? I ask that because only an uninformed foreigner could possibly suggest that the Middle East and the situation in Canada are one in the same. 

Are you suggesting that the Bloc Quebecois is the equivalent of Hezbollah?? Would that make Gilles Duceppe Nazrallah's Canadian twin?

I also get the impression that you sitting at a computer not wearing any clothing save for a pair of skidmarked underwear.


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## toddskam (21 Jul 2006)

Forgive me Bobby and Phil, I didn't know this was some kind of private club for insults.  I simply made the analogy that the Bloc in Canada was elected too - on a platform that amounts to being a traitor in other lands, I might add.  I guess that hurts you in some way?


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## Bobbyoreo (21 Jul 2006)

"I also get the impression that you sitting at a computer not wearing any clothing save for a pair of skidmarked underwear."

LMAO ;D


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## Bobbyoreo (21 Jul 2006)

I just don't understand. You seem to be on the side lines and pointing at people telling them what they are doing wrong but you don't tell them how to do it or why to do it that way. Your just one of those people who always points out problems...but never any way to fix it. Anyways your just a troll....go have fun under your bridge!!!


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## CanadaPhil (21 Jul 2006)

Oh I'm sorry.

Since most of your posts have the air of a 12 year old talking back to one of his parents, I thought you wanted to be treated like a child. 

If you feel that I offended you, you can report me to the moderator. As I am growing really tired of these discussions it doesn't really matter to me. I have just about had enough anyway.

BTW, my impression still stands.


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## toddskam (21 Jul 2006)

You know Phil,  with language like that, it makes me think I'm talking to one.


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## Remius (21 Jul 2006)

toddskam said:
			
		

> You know Phil,  with language like that, it makes me think I'm talking to one.



Ok toddskam.  Please explain your statement.  (see no insults).


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## meni0n (21 Jul 2006)

So please explain to us what does Hezbollah and quebec separatists have in common.


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## Ty (21 Jul 2006)

meni0n said:
			
		

> So please explain to us what does Hezbollah and quebec separatists have in common.



Are you all blind?!?  Look at the second letter!  Hezbollah, an "e".  Separatist, an "e".  Terrorist, an "e".  The link is irrefutable.

Comparing a legitimate political party to militant extremists should warrant no discussion, however, at the risk of opening up the proverbial can of worms, how would people here characterize the similarities (if any) of teh topical militants bent on the destruction of a state with groups such as the FLQ?  The Basque?  The IRA?


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## Kat Stevens (21 Jul 2006)

meni0n said:
			
		

> So please explain to us what does Hezbollah and quebec separatists have in common.


They talk funny..... ;D  8) >


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## muskrat89 (21 Jul 2006)

Keep it civil, and on topic, please.

This one is close to a lock.

Army.ca Staff


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## CanadaPhil (21 Jul 2006)

TA said:
			
		

> Comparing a legitimate political party to militant extremists should warrant no discussion, however, at the risk of opening up the proverbial can of worms, how would people here characterize the similarities (if any) of teh topical militants bent on the destruction of a state with groups such as the FLQ?  The Basque?  The IRA?



Since the topic was brought up, I am just going to put my 2 cents in on the question closest to home.

Does the FLQ exist today? And for that matter, did it ever really exist. I think it was an aberration in our history, mostly advanced by a TINY lunatic fringe, and no real citizen, especially those in Quebec would ever feel that what they did in the early 70's was justified.

As much was we all like to belly ache about taxes, the cost of gas and whatever our pet peeves are, I think that most would agree that we live in an incredibly caring, tolerant and generous society and that this nation is truly blessed. 

I think it would be a cold day in hell before the good people of Quebec would ever contemplate taking up arms and indiscriminately killing their fellow citizens or VICE VERSA. 

For proof of this, all  we have to do is just look at the results of the last referendum, which I am sure we all remember. I don't feel like googa/wikeeing at the moment but if I recall correctly, the final margin after over 10 millions votes was only 49,000!!! or 50.4 percent or something like that?

And what happened? Did anyone revolt and NOT ACCEPT the outcome? Were anglophones physically attacked in Montreal? Did the province go on strike? Did Quebec start a separate militia and begin arming themselves for a future conflict? Are Quebec children taught in schools to wish to destroy their neighbours and strive to grow up to be a suicide bombers in markets filled with civilians for the "greater good". I don't think so.

There are many places on this earth, including many that claim to be democracies, where a result like that would have been met with bloody carnage and mayhem.

Despite our many differences, Canadian citizens deeply respect one another.

Canadian democracy works.


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## toddskam (21 Jul 2006)

OK, TA actually hits it closest on the head.  Some of these Hezbollah guys were actually 'elected' by people in their own country for whatever reasons.  That's democracy in their eyes.  My analogy to separatists in Canada only means to highlight the fact that sometimes Canadians (and some posters here)  tend to really look down on others in the Middle East without realizing what is going on in their own back yard - a country within a country.  Sounds very similar doesn't it, without the escalation in violence?  You need to take a step back, and understand the region (your own too), before making such absurd comments and wondering where this Hezbollah support actually comes from.


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## George Wallace (21 Jul 2006)

Todd scam

As you aren't in Canada, you really don't know much about what the average Canadian Soldier knows or feels.  I can assure you that most are quite aware of what our situation is, what our history is, and what world history is.  You are comparing apples and, not even oranges, perhaps...... zucchini.  

Again, I ask what is your game here.


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## Remius (21 Jul 2006)

Yes but unlike the Hezbollah, Quebec Seperatist Parties do not have an armed "militia" targeting people they don't like.  Don't bring up the FLQ.  They were never associated with a political party.  Also they are using the democratic system in place to achieve their aims.  Jeez, now you have me defending seperatists.  Also they do not advocate the wholesale destruction of Canada.

Now I think we've veered way off topic.  maybe this should be in another thread.


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## Michael OLeary (21 Jul 2006)

This has gone far enough off track, it's done. 

Toddskam, consider this your one warning about trying to stir up a fight.  Debate here if you want, but that means reasoned and fully developed arguments (in case you weren't aware) or troll elsewhere - just keep in mind that the latter may be a staff choice for you if you keep up your current tactics

Mike
Staff


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