# Medical Technician's and the Combat Arms.



## BadgerTrapper

Hey, Guys and Girls. My Name's Patrick, I'm 17 and I graduate this year (Will be 18 in July). I was looking into trades in the Forces similar to the USMC Corpsman or the US Army's Medic and all directions have pointed towards Medical Technicians, I'm aware that you're pretty much posted where the Forces decides to attach you to a unit, but I was wondering what the job is like, while not deployed but attached to a Combat arm, i.e. Infantry, Armored or Artillery. I did a search but didn't find anything useful, might just be bad parameters on my part. If you can link me to something, that'd be great it'd be even better if I could take a few moments of your time for you to possibly message me or post on this thread, Thanks for your time people  -Patrick


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## medicineman

BadgerTrapper said:
			
		

> Hey, Guys and Girls. My Name's Patrick, I'm 17 and I graduate this year (Will be 18 in July). I was looking into trades in the Forces similar to the USMC  USN Corpsman or the US Army's Medic ...



Fixed that for you - the Hospital Corpsmen with the Marines are Navy.

In response to your question, my info is a bit dated, but generally units have a Care Delivery Unit for their in garrison care, as well as some folks set aside to go on exercise with them.  I've heard that they're trying to go back to the old Unit Medical Sections to provide a bit more consistency to both care and who's going out the door with them.  The Units used to have their own integral medical support, but about 8 years ago that kind of changed.  If you were in a UMS, you worked with that unit - paraded with them, did unit PT, went on exercises - if your were a Coy/Sqn/Bty medic, you'd support your sub-unit in the field on exercise or deployments; when in garrison, helped out with routine medical treatment, administration and maintenance. 

Hope that helps.

MM


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## BadgerTrapper

Yes, it helps a lot. Thank you, MM. I'm interested in being out with the soldiers during Exercises and deployments, essentially being the role of a Medic. What are the chances that this will actually happen? -Patrick


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## medicineman

They're decent...I just wouldn't expect it right away.

MM


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## Armymedic

To be a truly effective Med Tech with the Cbt arms, you need to be QL 5 qualified Cpl, although we do regularly send QL 3 qualified Ptes with them.

To increase your chances of working in the renewed UMTs (Unit medical teams) you need to be posted to one of the 3 Fd Ambs (Edmonton, Petawawa and Vacartier).

If you are really keen, fit and motivated, there are positions in the 3 CANSOFCOM units where their medics work very close to the operators of those units. But that is something to look at after you are in the CF and completed your QL 3 course.


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## BadgerTrapper

Essentially, I want to help people. This is my main concern, as long as I'm able to do this. I'm okay with my posting, my Father's a Paramedic, I'm a Junior Volunteer Firefighter. Helping people kinda runs in the family, I've one main problem though. I do not possess a Chemistry or Physics Credit. I have my Biology, but not a Chemistry or Physics. Will this cause me grief? Or will the Volunteer Firefighting, First Aid + CPR and AED etc. More or less account for that?

EDIT: CANSOFCOM was something that I was looking at, however I wish to do my time as a lower level?( I'm not sure if that's the best choice of words, so feel free to remedy me if this is the case.) soldier first. I was very interested in CSOR and still look into it regularly.


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## medicineman

If you really want it, get the Chem or Physics credits...IIRC, it is the requirement for admission to the Paramedic Academy at JIBC and most other colleges that run paramedic programs.

MM


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## BadgerTrapper

http://www.jibc.ca/programs-courses/schools-departments/school-health-sciences/paramedic-academy/programs/primary-care-paramedic

Assuming this is the course? PCP, from my understanding it's one of three? Yet again, thank you for your help, MM and Rider Pride. This is VERY helpful.


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## MedCorps

BadgerTrapper said:
			
		

> I've one main problem though. I do not possess a Chemistry or Physics Credit. I have my Biology, but not a Chemistry or Physics. Will this cause me grief? Or will the Volunteer Firefighting, First Aid + CPR and AED etc. More or less account for that?



You NEED a grade 12 chemistry or physics credit AND a grade 11 math credit.  Any thing else (including what you listed) will not over ride this academic requirement.  If you want to be a Med Tech, go get the credits.  The application process is highly competitive right now (which is good for us as a CF) and the other thing you do / have (FA / AED / firefighting) will be helpful, but also there are those pesky academic pre-requisites. 

Good luck.

MC


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## resolute

I'm not a medic, but as an MO, I frequently work with them.  I am constantly surprised by how infrequently the medics seem to do medically-related tasks.  They seem to spend a lot of time stagnating "in the cages," stocking shelves / accounting for inventory, vehicle maintenance, etc.  In Edmonton, it looks like they can be posted into:  clinic, pharmacy, training, or "the field amb" - which comprises many of the above tasks that some troops refer to (disparaginly, at times) as "GD" (general duty).

In truth, MOST trades that I have witnessed in the CF have a variable amount of time spent doing "non-core" activities.  As a physician, I'm lucky that most of my time is spent practicing medicine (at least, at the Captain level).  But other trades, for example, the GDNO's (General Duty Nursing Officer's) sometimes spent months at a time posted to administrative positions, where they function almost interchangeably like HCA's (Health Care Administrators) doing coordinating tasks, answering e-mails, filling out performance evaluations on subordinates, etc.  Just the thought of all that admin is nauseating to me (of course, some people amazingly actually LIKE it, which is good for them I guess).  Now that I think of it, the above admin positions also exist for medics, although they might still get out to the field for a month or so every so often.


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## xo31@711ret

Dating myself here Doc - your statement above is why I liked the old UMS system; sure we did a bit of med adm, but we spent most of the time with the companies, troops, etc - they knew their company medic & BTN med staff, & we knew our company troops. When in garrison we did med training with our unit MO & snr med A's. I don't know what its like today, but I remember as cpl's with a UMS, (after being observed by our MO), in the field we could prescribe basic meds (antibiotics, T-1's, etc); suture basic injuries, IV's, immunizations, blood draws etc...I'm sure our med tech's are highly professional, but speaking  for myself at least I enjoyed the old unit medical station - the only problem was, back then, as med A's with all these skills we had very little to no qualifications on civvie street....


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## KeoughJ

This was actually a question I had aswell. I'm fighting between what I want more, Infantry or Medical Tech. But if its possible to be out with the infantry while still getting an education within the military, than that just make everything all the easier. 

Now, initially I went to school for Practical Nursing, and completed 1 semester with good marks until I had to drop out of semester 2 and that was 2-3 years ago now. If I put that on the application, there not going to look at that as someone who doesn't have drive enough to complete something, almost see it as a black spot on my history. I'm apply in late March early April, and I desperately trying to find a way to get a leg up on the competition, although this is something I should have done 5 or so months ago.


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## OldSolduer

resolute said:
			
		

> In truth, MOST trades that I have witnessed in the CF have a variable amount of time spent doing "non-core" activities.  As a physician, I'm lucky that most of my time is spent practicing medicine (at least, at the Captain level).  But other trades, for example, the GDNO's (General Duty Nursing Officer's) sometimes spent months at a time posted to administrative positions, where they function almost interchangeably like HCA's (Health Care Administrators) doing coordinating tasks, answering e-mails, filling out performance evaluations on subordinates, etc.  Just the thought of all that admin is nauseating to me (of course, some people amazingly actually LIKE it, which is good for them I guess).  Now that I think of it, the above admin positions also exist for medics, although they might still get out to the field for a month or so every so often.



This happens everywhere and its unavoidable.  Even as an MO you may be required to perform admin functions, like PDRs on your MedTechs.

One Principle of Leadership you should NEVER ignore:

Know your troops and promote their welfare. 

This means as a leader, you have to ensure their admin needs are taken care of.


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## jmlane

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> [...]
> One Principle of Leadership you should NEVER ignore:
> 
> Know your troops and promote their welfare.
> 
> This means as a leader, you have to ensure their admin needs are taken care of.


Very valid consideration, however the leadership aspect may not apply to a new MedTech with no subordinates. They may just want to learn their trade and hone their skills without being stuck doing admin duty that was mentioned in passing on their job description and not honestly disclosed by the CFRC staff. I realize there is a lot of so-called busy work that many CF member have to take on because somebody has got to do it. It may be a very frustrating 2-3 years for a member that did not have a clear idea of how often or likely this situation will be during the recruiting phase.


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## OldSolduer

jmlane said:
			
		

> Very valid consideration, however the leadership aspect may not apply to a new MedTech with no subordinates. They may just want to learn their trade and hone their skills without being stuck doing admin duty that was mentioned in passing on their job description and not honestly disclosed by the CFRC staff. I realize there is a lot of so-called busy work that many CF member have to take on because somebody has got to do it. It may be a very frustrating 2-3 years for a member that did not have a clear idea of how often or likely this situation will be during the recruiting phase.



I was referring to Medical Officers, not MedTechs right out of TQ3. Medical Officers need to learn that they may have subordinates at some point in their career, such as Unit MO.


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## medicineman

jmlane said:
			
		

> Very valid consideration, however the leadership aspect may not apply to a new MedTech with no subordinates. They may just want to learn their trade and hone their skills without being stuck doing admin duty that was mentioned in passing on their job description and not honestly disclosed by the CFRC staff. I realize there is a lot of so-called busy work that many CF member have to take on because somebody has got to do it. It may be a very frustrating 2-3 years for a member that did not have a clear idea of how often or likely this situation will be during the recruiting phase.



Part of your job is soldiering - and doing maintenance on your vehicle, your weapons, radios and equipment is part of that.  If you're reordering supplies, use some initiative and learn something about the drugs or equipment that's getting ordered, etc.  Medical admin duties are part of your job description as well, and it's in the recruiting pamphlet - it sucks, but is a necessary evil.  It's only UFI if you let it be.

 :2c: from someone that was frustrated then opened their eyes.

MM


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## mariomike

medicineman said:
			
		

> Medical admin duties are part of your job description as well, and it's in the recruiting pamphlet - it sucks, but is a necessary evil.  It's only UFI if you let it be.
> 
> :2c: from someone that was frustrated then opened their eyes.
> 
> MM



It's all pensionable time.


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## medicineman

mariomike said:
			
		

> It's all pensionable time.



And I'm collecting on that  :nod:.

MM


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## BadgerTrapper

I've nothing wrong with doing maintenance duty or "Soldiering" as you call it as long as I get some time out in the field, on ex, Range time etc. My main focus is on performing actual, medical duties and treatment. Initial care upon injury, that kind of thing.


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## aesop081

jmlane said:
			
		

> I realize there is a lot of so-called busy work that many CF member have to take on



Maintaining vehicles and equipment that are necessary in order for your unit to accomplish its mission is not "busy work".


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## Michael OLeary

BadgerTrapper said:
			
		

> I've nothing wrong with doing maintenance duty or "Soldiering" as you call it as long as I get some time out in the field, on ex, Range time etc. My main focus is on performing actual, medical duties and treatment. Initial care upon injury, that kind of thing.



Just as long as you realize that for the rest of us, it's a good day when the medics don't have to practice their primary function.


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## BadgerTrapper

Trust me, Mr O'leary. I know that all too well, especially regarding Firefighting. From a realist point of view, we know that it WILL happen so we may as well be prepared to deal with it to the best of our abilities. It comes down to enthusiasm though, would you prefer a Well-trained, well-practiced Medic taking care of your injuries or an unproven, un-tested Medic? May be a hard analogy to understand, and for that I apologize.


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## Michael OLeary

I'll take a focused and well-trained medic every time, because if he or she is focused and well trained they will apply the same commitment to all of the "doing maintenance duty or "Soldiering" as [we] call it." No-one in the CF does just the single skill set associated with their trade title, we all appreciate well rounded service members who fulfill all the expectations of their employment. 

Keep in mind that your enthusiasm and commitment are going to be judged long before you have to open your medical kit.


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## resolute

Jim Seggie,

I was commenting on how "admin heavy" certain trades in the military are, for the benefit of somebody who is apparently "on the outside, looking in."  As was mentioned by another poster, there are things stated (or not stated) by the recruiting office that may have been "deal breakers" had they been known by those (like myself) who are now active members.  I was promised "a day per week working in the ER" for the Maintenance of Clinical Skills Program.  I had (pipe) dreams of using those hours to become eligible to sit the Emergency Medicine exam and acquire an increased scope of practice.  Ask anybody who knows the situation at 1 Fd Amb / Edmonton, and they will tell you that the MCSP situation is laughable (for various reasons that I will not get into via this forum).  I don't think any of us on this board are trying to persuade anybody to join or not join.  But, I think most of us would agree that knowing what you are getting into (as much as this is possible) is key to having a positive attitude and for career longevity.

I do not need principles of leadership quoted, or to be reminded of my "admin duties."  I was IC of the Role 1 in Kandahar for a time, and definitely had my share of admin.  In the CDU's, I make a habit to mentor my medics and then give them progressive levels of responsibility and autonomy.  And I am now one of the new UMT docs (who gets only 2.5 days per week of clinic and 2.5 days of admin/randomness), as I alluded to above.  

I'll do my job, and do it well.  But it doesn't mean I have to like every aspect of it (or be overwhelmingly and delusionally optimistic about the CF in general).  And it doesn't mean I necessarily have to "be a lifer" if it is less professionally rewarding than I had imagined.  And there is nothing dishonourable about that.

/rant


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## mariomike

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Maintaining vehicles and equipment that are necessary in order for your unit to accomplish its mission is not "busy work".



I agree. 
It may take some getting used to by semi-skilled applicants coming out of the colleges. These days their experience with the above, including station cleaning, could be minimal at best, or close to nil. Much of that work used to be done by the crews themselves. But now - _depending on which service they precepted with _- it has almost entirely been taken over by the Operations Support Division staff.


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## BadgerTrapper

Medical Technician's deployed to the Combat arms, do they fight with that unit as if they were the same role as that unit. I.e. Would a Medical Tech with the infantry fight with the Infantry? And man an artillery piece if they are artillery?


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## medicineman

You are ancillary staff with the Cbt Arms - if you're in a firefight, you shoot back obviously, but you also have other issues to worry about usually as well  .  You aren't a gun number on a gun or crewman in a tank (though you can be crew in the armoured ambulance).

MM


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## BadgerTrapper

Though they wouldn't give a Med Tech a C9 and have them lay down suppressive fire? They'd focus on being a mobile element in a Firefight, attending to the wounds of those who need it? While partaking in the Firefight itself . . . I like the sounds of this.


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## medicineman

I'd be surprised if they gave you a C-9 - they're a bit of a target, and the infantry guys have a vested interest in making sure you're protected.

MM


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## DiverMedic

medicineman said:
			
		

> I'd be surprised if they gave you a C-9 - they're a bit of a target, and the infantry guys have a vested interest in making sure you're protected.
> 
> MM



Chances are highly unlikely you will be given a C9 or C6, you need to remain mobile in case anyone is injured, plus the MG is a pretty essential piece of kit in an infantry section.  Having said that tho, you are trained in how to use them and most medics end up doing SQ and spend some time doing live fire.

DM


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## jmlane

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Maintaining vehicles and equipment that are necessary in order for your unit to accomplish its mission is not "busy work".


It may be considered busy work for those members that signed-up to do a job that they did not think included such duties, regardless of how necessary it may be in actuality. My point was that the recruiting materials and information given by some recruiters do not always honestly disclose the frequency of your day-to-day admin/maintenance duties. I understand trying to obtain recruiting numbers and using marketing tactics to do so, however there should be more clarity about the not-so-obvious duties each member can expect to be doing regularly. It is preferable to have people with an understanding that these duties are necessary to maintain operational capacity (as you pointed out), as opposed to dealing with disgruntled new members who felt "tricked" into that work.


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## OldSolduer

medicineman said:
			
		

> I'd be surprised if they gave you a C-9 - they're a bit of a target, and the infantry guys have a vested interest in making sure you're protected.
> 
> MM



Not to mention that as a med tech you carry a weapon only  for self defense or the defense of your patients.


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## medicineman

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Not to mention that as a med tech you carry a weapon only  for self defense or the defense of your patients patience.



FTFY... ;D.  

All joking aside, we've crossed into an interesting gray zone - we remounted C-6's on the armoured ambs, we're preaching scene safety=killing/suppressing bad guys, etc.  In theory, medics aren't to carry or be employed on crew served weapons - of course my Pl WO with 1VP many moons ago then made me the #2 on the 60mm if we were in a defensive, since the CCP and alternate CP were one in the same with the mortar pit, so I could be gainfully employed if not plugging holes.  From dealings with the US, in particular the USN Hospital Corpsmen with the Marines, there were wide variations of what they carried - usually a pistol and or a 12G shotgun, sometimes an M-16/M-4.  As the guys with their Recon Units are considered shooters, some often ended up with a SAW.  The Army medics I worked with usually had an M-16 or M-4.

I'd be interested to hear the legal interpretation of a medic carrying even the cut down version of the C-9, since even a rifle is an offensive weapon really, since the range exceeds that of our personal defense type weapons (SMG's, pistols).

My morning caffiene deficient :2c:

MM


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## MedCorps

There has been some talk on this recently, given the current contemporary operating environment. 

It comes down to something like this: 

A weapon is a tool. Tools can be used offensively or defensively, or to prop open a door or as shovel. 

Canadian personnel subject to the Geneva Convention, regardless of the environment or adversarial compliance with the Geneva Convention will only use weapons defensively to protect themselves or their patients.  Can a aggressive fighting defence exist? Most certainly... if required based on the threat. We have a number of examples from the current conflict. 

So then we look at the concept of  weapons for CFHS personnel, based on the War Establishment.  These include the service pistol, the service rifle / carbine (although there are no C8's on the TO&E), the light machine gun for area defence (Role 2 and 3), and the Claymore Command Detonated Weapon (Role 2 and 3). If it is on the TO&E for the War Establishment is it save to assume that one can use it in a defensive role.  Most notably missing is the fragmentation grenade, which has been deemed but someone to be a weapon designed more for offensive purposes than defensive purposes and hence not on the TO&E for HS units. 

The C6 on armoured ambulances, is still a fiercely debated topic and is a frequent ethical topic debated at all officer ranks and within the JAG (I am not sure I have ever heard and NCM debate the concept much).  It is a current exemption to the rule, based on a sound legal opinion and requires a semi-annual review and sign off by the Generals involved in assuming the liability and risk for allowing such an activity. We will see where this settles when all is said and done at the end of Afghanistan operations. The War Establishment TO&E does not have this weapons system on allocation. 

You are in a position that is being attacked and a collective defence needs to be mounted with you as the #2 on the mortar... is this ok?  I would think so, it is given that a collective defence is required to assure your survival and you are just doing your bit. 

You are trying to prep fire a target with the the same mortar prior to it being assaulted with troops as part of an offensive operations with you as #2 on the tube... is this ok?  I would suggest no. 

You need to fire illumination... I would suggest this is fine, regardless of the offensive / defensive situation as the weapon system is not being used directly for killing but rather as a flashlight. 

In the end we all need to live with our actions at the end of the day and we are all grown ups. 

There are some other issues with respect to the GC and war that are a little more complex and that I will not get into here. 

Just some food for thought based on the current state of business. 

MC


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## ModlrMike

MedCorps said:
			
		

> The C6 on armoured ambulances, is still a fiercely debated topic and is a frequent ethical topic debated at all officer ranks and within the JAG (I am not sure I have ever heard and NCM debate the concept much).



That's because we understand that ambulances are bullet magnets that require the ability to provide sufficient return fire.


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## mikeninercharlie

I was present when a former DGHS damn near blew an ovary when she discovered that ambulances, with the red crosses concealed, were being armed with C6s. As a non-clinician, even she understood that ambulance crews had no desire in becoming martyrs in a jihad...


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## medicineman

mikeninercharlie said:
			
		

> I was present when a former DGHS damn near blew an ovary when she discovered that ambulances, with the red crosses concealed, were being armed with C6s. As a non-clinician, even she understood that ambulance crews had no desire in becoming martyrs in a jihad...



Mike - I seriously doubt she had ovaries...

It's a little odd when you look at the US - their air ambulances and their armoured land ambulances don't have defensive MG's on them, even in Iraq or Afghanistan (last I looked anyway, please correct me if more up to date info is out there)...and yes, they're lead magnets.  I seem to recall going through this in 94 when we deployed to Croatia...apparently the 113 ambs had the old Browning GPMG's mounted in 93, then they got taken down in 94.  The story we were told was it gave the silhouette of a combat vehicle because of the gun, so to ensure the bad guys wouldn't try to light us up if they could only see the shape, they decided to take the guns down.  I'd also heard some folks were a little disturbed that one of the callsigns had apparently tried engaging some Croats in Medak with said GPMG.

I got told off for doing air sentry in Kabul on the vehicle I usually rode in -Bison MRT- when we did convoy escorts...was even told so much as to not have my weapon visible and keep my GC crosshairs visbile on my arm (I used to do the opposite) if I wanted to "hang out" in the family hatch.  No names no pack drill...

MM


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## OldSolduer

I can't recall an M113 Amb being armed. However, it's Afghanistan it would make sense to arm the ambs as the Taliban didn't sign the Geneva conventions. No doubt in my mind that the Red Cross made an excellent aiming mark.


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## DiverMedic

medicineman said:
			
		

> I got told off for doing air sentry in Kabul on the vehicle I usually rode in -Bison MRT- when we did convoy escorts...was even told so much as to not have my weapon visible and keep my GC crosshairs visbile on my arm (I used to do the opposite) if I wanted to "hang out" in the family hatch.  No names no pack drill...
> 
> MM



I know I had to get permission to be air sentry in my Bison.  Was actually there for a month before it happened.  Due to decreased manning, I was also air sentry in a LAV and TLAV at times.

We were also told NOT to wear the red crosses outside of KAF or anything medical related (ie: no MEDIC badges or anything with a cross)

DM


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## BadgerTrapper

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I can't recall an M113 Amb being armed. However, it's Afghanistan it would make sense to arm the ambs as the Taliban didn't sign the Geneva conventions. No doubt in my mind that the Red Cross made an excellent aiming mark.



Aye, I believe I was reading somewhere that Medic's don't tend to wearr any kind of designation, whether it be the Red cross or what have you on their kit when they're outside the wire. Just gives the Taliban a target, with that said. Do any of you currently believe that there will be a rehashing of the ROE for Medical Tech's and such? 

(Slight update on my situation for becoming a Med Tech, I'm currently merit listed. Just waiting to hear back in the first week of August as to whether or not I was selected for the Med Tech NCM-SEP. Even if I'm not selected, I'll still take the course then just reapply as a PCP Certified/ Level 1 Firefighter. Here's hoping! *fingers crossed*)


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## aesop081

BadgerTrapper said:
			
		

> Do any of you currently believe that there will be a rehashing of the ROE for Medical Tech's and such?



Canada being a signatory to the GCs, we have obligations that you just can't "rehash" because the other guy didn't sign.


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## medicineman

BadgerTrapper said:
			
		

> Aye, I believe I was reading somewhere that Medic's don't tend to wearr any kind of designation, whether it be the Red cross or what have you on their kit when they're outside the wire. Just gives the Taliban a target, with that said. Do any of you currently believe that there will be a rehashing of the ROE for Medical Tech's and such?



The ROE are no different - a commander can decide whether or not the GC crosses are visible and protected pers are allowed to carry and use small arms for their protection and the protection of their patients.

MM


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## IronSpike

Speaking about ROE, I've tried to do as much research as I could but haven't found a definitive answer. When it comes down to CSOR/JTF2 and the medics where do they fall in? As far as I've found the medic plays a supporter role to the operators, but are they right in there with the operators?


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## MikeL

IronSpike said:
			
		

> Speaking about ROE, I've tried to do as much research as I could but haven't found a definitive answer. When it comes down to CSOR/JTF2 and the medics where do they fall in? As far as I've found the medic plays a supporter role to the operators, but are they right in there with the operators?





Not really sure what you are going for here,  but they are where they need to be to do their job.   Why are you looking for this info anyways?


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## IronSpike

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> Not really sure what you are going for here,  but they are where they need to be to do their job.   Why are you looking for this info anyways?


I've got my application in for Med Tech, and was just curious.


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## BadgerTrapper

Hey guys, just an update. I'm about midway through my PCP course as an NCM-SEP. There have been a few questions I've been looking to ask, but since the Detachment I'm based out of doesn't seem to have any Medical Technician's on staff and the school isn't running any AEC courses at the moment. I can't ask them, so here goes for anyone who doesn't mind taking a few minutes of their time.

1.) In terms of medical equipment, what is carried while on a patrol? Part of me highly doubts that a Medical Technician attached to an Infantry unit is carrying an Airway Kit, Med Bag, Trauma Bag and a "First In" bag. 

2.) Upon completing my PCP course, I'm off to CFMSS to extend my skill set.  Which skills would I learn that differ from that of a Civilian PCP? I've a third question as well regarding equipment though I've a strong suspicion it'll be answered here. 

There it is! If anyone can give me a hand it'd be greatly appreciated! Thanks a lot everyone and happy holidays!  

(Something that might be useful, I'm attending the APA (Medavie Healthed) in Moncton.)


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## MikeL

If you have an account for Lightfighter you can see a thread a Canadian Medic did on his CTOMs 1st line pouch and backpack,  lists what he packed, etc

http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9046084761/m/376104437?r=464104267#464104267

CTOMS 1st line


> On the front of the pouch, there is three tournequet pouches that will fit either the SOF-T or the CAT. I've seen them been used to carry sidearm mags or even a pistol. (I personally don't sugest this.)
> 
> Above the 3 tournequet pouches, there is a pouch designed for gloves. I was able to fit 6 pairs of XL nitrile gloves and my shears. The shears are attached with a shear retractable lanyard from CTOMS.
> 
> The pouch can easily fit enough TFC-Bubble supplies to treat 2 minor casualty or 1 major. I could fit more supplies in there, but I want to reduce the weight I carry.
> 
> On the Hemorrhage side, I carry 2x 6" Oales, 1x Pk of QuickClot granules and 1x QuickClot Combat Gauze.
> 
> On the Airway/Breathing side, I carry a disposable scalpel, 2x NPA, 2x 14G NARP Needles, a prepackaged cric kit, and some gun tape. Also, behind the MARS pannel, I have 2x Lg Tegaderm.




CTOMS 2nd line


> I seperated my kit in 4 modules :
> 
> - Hemmorhage
> - Airway/Breathing
> - Fluid Ressus
> - Drugs
> 
> All modules are secured in the bag via velcro and can be removed by pulling on the glow in the dark label provide with the bag.
> 
> In my Hemmorhage module, I carry equipment to complement my 1st Line Pouch. I used only a Quad Fold for this module.
> 
> Content:
> - 2x Blast Bandages
> - 1x 6" Oales Bandage
> - 2x 4" Oales Bandages
> - 2x Kerlix
> - 2x Combat Gauze
> - 1x QuickClot Granules
> 
> In my Airway/Breathing module, I carry basic and advanced equipment. I am still waiting to see if the Canadian Forces are going to accept the use of the King LT, if not, I will also put a Combitube in there. I used a MARS Pannel, a Quad Fold and a Book Folder.
> 
> Content:
> - Premade Cric Kit
> - 2x NPA
> - 2x OPA
> - 2x 14G NARP Needle
> - 1x Roll of waterproof tape
> - 1x BVM (with NuMask, not shown on pictures)
> - 1x Suction (60cc syringe with NPA taped together)
> - 1x Acherman Chest Seal
> 
> In my Fluid Ressus module I carry enough fluids for 1 major casualty or 2 minor casualty. I used again a MARS Pannel, a Quad Fold and a Book Folder.
> 
> Content:
> - 4x 18G IV Needles
> - 1x Saline Lock
> - 1x 3M Transpore Tape
> - 1x IV Tournequet
> - ETOH Swabs
> - Sm Tegaderm
> - 1x 500cc NS Bag
> - 2x 250cc HSD (RescueFlow)
> - 2x 100cc NS Bag
> - 2x 10 drops Basic Drip Set
> - 2x Secondary Drip Set
> - 1x Roll Coban
> - 1x Medication Added Label
> 
> My Drug module is built with a MARS Pannel, a Quad Fold and a Book Folder. I carry my meds in a prototype MedBox by CTOMS.
> 
> Content:
> - Syringes (different sizes)
> - Needles (different sizes)
> - DrugBox
> - Sharp Container
> - Glucometer
> - BP Cuff
> - Salbutamol, Ipratropium Bromide and NTG
> - ETOH Swabs


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## BadgerTrapper

Thanks, Skeletor. Great link, milpoints inbound. All of that looks relatively familiar aside from the HSD which I've had no dealings with whatsoever. Not all that familiar with administration of Hypertonic solutions at this point in time, I'm assuming that's one of the things I'll be taught at CFMSS? As well as the extra medications. Ipratropium Bromide from my understanding is a COPD treatment drug correct, is this the CF application or is there another desired effect? (I know I'm kind of going over my courses head at the moment, but I like to have a decent knowledge of this kind of thing.) Thanks! - BadgerTrapper


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## Armymedic

BadgerTrapper said:
			
		

> As well as the extra medications. Ipratropium Bromide from my understanding is a COPD treatment drug correct, is this the CF application or is there another desired effect?



In his Afghan centric trauma oriented bag, I do not know why he is carrying Sabutamol, Atrovent and Nitro. Perhaps he was told it was a good idea by the someone. It is, after all, just an advertisement for CTOMS.

My best hypothesis is that it is for reactive airways as a result of dry heat and dust in the ATO. As for the angina meds; I can't even provide a best guess.

Realistically, as an infantry medic you'd carry items that fit into the MARCHE pneumonic:

Massive Bleeds:
Tourniquets
Dressings: Oales or ER
Packing: QC  or HK gauze

Airway:
NPA
OPA
Whichever blind insertion device youre comfortable with
Cric set (once your qualified to do it)
BVM with mask

Resp:
Halo seals
14 gu angio caths

Circ:
Steth and BP cuff
Pulse Ox
IV initiation set, Saline lock 
IV Tubing
2x 500 ml bags of crystaloid
1x bag colloid
Oral rehydration packets

Head/hypothermia:
ENT set (oto & othaloscope set)
Hypothermia kit

Everything else:
Triangular bandages
Tensor bandages
boo-boo kit (band aids, antibiotic cream)
SAM splint
safety pins
suture/staple/skin glue kit
blister kit
Drug kit (based on your scope and AOR)
casualty cards and markers.

Don't get sucked into a company's cool kit and niche of Afghan vets; Not everywhere we go has a helicopter on 30 mins NTM and a level 1 trauma center just a quick radio call away.


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## BadgerTrapper

Rider Pride said:
			
		

> Cric set (once your qualified to do it)



You mean it's not as easy as sticking a Bic Pen in the Cricothyroid Membrane?  

Also, the Salbutamol I can understand if employed to counter possible Asthmatic problems while in the field? 

Much appreciated, Rider Pride. That pretty much clears up all my questions in terms of equipment! I assume that is on top of the Combat load and such as well? 

Anything in regards to the skill set? BadgerTrapper


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## Armymedic

BadgerTrapper said:
			
		

> You mean it's not as easy as sticking a Bic Pen in the Cricothyroid Membrane?



When you know what you are doing, and have done a few proper ones before, it can be that easy.

 :bowing:


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## medicineman

Weird - got those puffers in there but no aerochamber to deliver them with...

BT - the salbutamol and ipratropium are often used synergistically to deal with bronchospasm and airway secretions for asthma attacks.

As Rider mentioned, you need to be able to tailor to needs, mission and lcoation relative to higher medical assistance.  You'd be surprised what you can get into some of the various off the shelf med bags that are out there and how easily they can grow or shrink to purpose (or lack of proper planning in the case of growing).  Experience will teach you how much of what you take and where it should go in your kit...not to mention what you're actually allowed and trained to use.  I remember looking at one of our MO's on the coast one time that was going on a sail, had limited space for gear, and wanted a small hospital with more drugs than a local ER simply because something happened one time and he spent too much time treating instead of evacuating...I just looked at him and asked if he'd ever lived out of his ruck before - he hadn't.  "Sir, you only really need this, this and that...if they're that sick, someone can come get them or you can take them ashore in short order".  There is always temptation to take everything when it really isn't needed.

 :2c:

MM


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## ArmyGuy99

Every time I get tasked somewhere, I read the OP/Admin Orders, do MY map recce of the AOR and find out if any air assets are available, and then I think about what I will need to bring.  Then I pack my bag.  Then I realize how heavy it is. (We tend to try and pack everything).  So I lighten it.  Regardless of how I pack, my bags are usually 35-45lbs, with water.  I use a Camelback BFM with the Med Insert. 

As you can see below, in the last 2.5 years I've had very different taskings.  You will learn through experience, both yours and others. 

as for the other part of the discussion.  While in Afghanistan, I did air sentry all the time.  Had no choice, due to manning.  And honestly, I loved it.  And yes our Bisons and then 113 Ambs were armed with C6's, the 113's had the RWS.  

A portion of our mandate as medical pers is preventative medicine.  If I can kill the rat for no good reason other than it MIGHT have fleas or MIGHT bring poisonous snakes around.  Then why can't I start shooting at 200m??  <- Just for arguments sake.

Snapshot:

Ex Trillium Response 12: 90 + min North of Hearst, Ontario.  In the middle of a Provincial Park.  Totally dismounted.  Assigned as the Coy Medic for 56 pers, with 6 plt medics and an LSVW AMB at the entrance to the park about 30-45min away.   Evac to the Hospital in Hearst was more than 90 Min by land.  No Helo extract available.

In Afghanistan 2010 : We pretty much had a chopper Not more then 30 min away and my bag was packed for trauma and hydration.  I was all by myself either with the OMLT or RCD Recce usually not more then 8 to 14 pers.  So I was mounted which allowed me to bring more in a 3rd line bag that stayed in the TLAV/LAV, as we were usually out for weeks at a time.  Also did convoy duty for NSE Force Protection.

In Ft Irwin, California During Work Up 2010: I was again mounted with a Bison AMB as the GIB, got tasked out all over, usually on convoy duty or at the coy level. (ex was a gong show, if you were there you know).  We had Airevac at about 20 min after the 9 liner.


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## Hunter

Rider Pride said:
			
		

> Circ:
> Steth and BP cuff
> Pulse Ox
> IV initiation set, Saline lock
> IV Tubing
> 2x 500 ml bags of crystaloid
> 1x bag colloid
> Oral rehydration packets



 What colloid solution is in current use in dismount med bags?


----------



## ArmyGuy99

Currently, nothing.

While overseas in 2010 we trialed using HSD, which meant we also carried NaCl.  Yes we carried 4 500cc bags of IV fluid.  On long patrols I'd pack 6 (an extra 2 saline).

The final study came out last spring I believe (it's at work hanging on the board and I'm on Block Leave like the rest of the CF).  The result was that there was absolutely no difference in using saline over HSD when it came to long term survival rates.  The only benefit was to the medic on the ground, as we need to carry less HSD then Saline.

As far as I know the HSD was only a trial and hasn't been implemented as a protocol as of yet.  Although I could be wrong on that by now.


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## Armymedic

As of last summer, the issued colloid is Voluvent.

It's made with a synthetic starch in normal saline.

Apparently it has a reduced harmful effect of coagulation and does not harm the kidneys as severely as previously issued large molecule colloids.

I believe it is still a Surg Gen controlled item, so it's unlikely you will see it here at home much.


----------



## Hunter

MedTech32 said:
			
		

> Currently, nothing.
> 
> While overseas in 2010 we trialed using HSD, which meant we also carried NaCl.  Yes we carried 4 500cc bags of IV fluid.  On long patrols I'd pack 6 (an extra 2 saline).
> 
> The final study came out last spring I believe (it's at work hanging on the board and I'm on Block Leave like the rest of the CF).  The result was that there was absolutely no difference in using saline over HSD when it came to long term survival rates.  The only benefit was to the medic on the ground, as we need to carry less HSD then Saline.
> 
> As far as I know the HSD was only a trial and hasn't been implemented as a protocol as of yet.  Although I could be wrong on that by now.



Really? Seems odd that in 2010 they would be trialling something that was in widespread use on ROTO 6 (2008-2009).


----------



## ArmyGuy99

I could be wrong and ROTO 6 data was in there and I only remember roto 09 cause that was my roto.  I will check on the 7th when I get back to the clinic and will scan a pdf of the study or find the very obscure link to it.

MTF on this Wait Out....


----------



## BadgerTrapper

Thanks so much for the information, greatly appreciated. Gave me some things to research over the break. How do you tend carry the gear itself? Different pack? etc. It's pretty snowy down here in NB, so just consider this as me stirring the pot a bit before I head back out to shovel for the 6th time today. Whoever said "Do a job right the first time and you won't have to do it again" obviously never shoveled a Canadian driveway. - BadgerTrapper


----------



## ArmyGuy99

Ok,

Here is the link to the official document:

http://pubs.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/BASIS/pcandid/www/engpub/DDW?W%3Dadddate+ge+'20111001'+sort+by+adddate+descend%26M%3D25%26K%3D535477%26R%3DN%26U%3D1

and I will attach a .pdf of the Executive Summary,

Turns out, I was mistaken.  The dataset is for 2006-2009 and publised in 2010.  Not sure why we were told to carry both sets, if the study was completed.  Interesting results though.


----------



## jolem123

hi, does medical technician , when they are on the field when deployed are fighting with the infantry soldier like a combat medic?


----------



## mariomike

jolem123 said:
			
		

> hi, does medical technician , when they are on the field when deployed are fighting with the infantry soldier like a combat medic?



See also,

The "Combat Medic" 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/90589.0

Medical Technician - Infantry
https://www.google.ca/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&q=site%3Aarmy.ca+%22med+tech%22+%22infantry%22&oq=site%3Aarmy.ca+%22med+tech%22+%22infantry%22&gs_l=psy-ab.12...0.0.0.59239.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1..64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.LeY2uderWaQ


----------



## Eye In The Sky

jolem123 said:
			
		

> hi, does medical technician , when they are on the field when deployed are fighting with the infantry soldier like a combat medic?



While the infantry soldier is trying to *close with and destroy the enemy*, the medic could be along side them but not there for the same purpose.  Think of them firing their weapon more along the line of "defending their patients".


----------

