# Just a QUESTION ?



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Frank McKerry" <mckerry@home.com>* on *Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:58:16 -0800*
Has this site become a recuiting station ? As for some of the crap that 
is showing-
up about who was were and when, then gets nasty and the replies are full 
of
vulger B___S____, I‘m no prude I can cuss probably better then the 
writers, but
this si not the form for it. I joined  this site to hear about / or hear 
from some
of the Vets, some of the piecetimers too. One thing for sure OUR DEFENCE
MINISTER at the TIME OF SOMALIA  had to be an IDIOT - The Commando Units
are trained for one thing - TO KILL - you don‘t send KILLERS ON A PEACE
KEEPING MISSION - nor do you send troups among a people who‘s way of
life is to STEAL. As a retired Sgt. now just plain tired and having a 
son who
has retired from the Forces Sigs maybe someone will understand where I 
am
coming from. Frank
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
Has this site become a recuiting 
station ? As for
some of the crap that is showing-
up about who was were and when, then 
gets nasty and
the replies are full of
vulger B___S____, I‘m no prude I can 
cuss probably
better then the writers, but
this si not the form for it. I 
joined this
site to hear about / or hear from some
of the Vets, some of the piecetimers 
too. One thing
for sure OUR DEFENCE
MINISTER at the TIME OF SOMALIA 
had to be an
IDIOT - The Commando Units
are trained for one thing - TO KILL - 
you don‘t
send KILLERS ON A PEACE
KEEPING MISSION - nor do you send 
troups among a
people who‘s way of
life is to STEAL. As a retired Sgt. 
now just plain
tired and having a son who
has retired from the Forces Sigs 
maybe someone
will understand where I am
coming from. 
Frank
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"william durrant" <gunner10@sprint.ca>* on *Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:34:38 -0500*
Frank,
Yes, this has become a recruiting station, and I believe that every 
resource that is available to the general public should be. If civies 
want to know something bad enough to find us here, then I think we owe 
them an answer.  As for your comments about commando‘s being trained to 
kill, that‘s why they were disbanded......we don‘t  require killers.  We 
require soldiers..... professional, compassionate and understanding, who 
are capable of killing if it comes to that...which, at this time is and 
should be rare.     Our mandate is not to kill whomever we decide 
deserves it. no, not even thieves!  What do you believe our job should 
be?   Who do you think we should kill?
-bill
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Frank McKerry
  To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
  Sent: Monday, March 13, 2000 1:58 PM
  Subject: Just a QUESTION ?
  Has this site become a recuiting station ? As for some of the crap 
that is showing-
  up about who was were and when, then gets nasty and the replies are 
full of
  vulger B___S____, I‘m no prude I can cuss probably better then the 
writers, but
  this si not the form for it. I joined  this site to hear about / or 
hear from some
  of the Vets, some of the piecetimers too. One thing for sure OUR 
DEFENCE
  MINISTER at the TIME OF SOMALIA  had to be an IDIOT - The Commando 
Units
  are trained for one thing - TO KILL - you don‘t send KILLERS ON A 
PEACE
  KEEPING MISSION - nor do you send troups among a people who‘s way of
  life is to STEAL. As a retired Sgt. now just plain tired and having 
a son who
  has retired from the Forces Sigs maybe someone will understand where 
I am
  coming from. Frank
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
Frank,
Yes, this has become 
a recruiting
station, and I believe that every resourcethat is available to the 
general
public should be. If civies want to know something bad enough to find us 
here,
then I think we owe them an answer. As for your comments about 
commando‘s
being trained to kill, that‘s why they were disbanded......we 
don‘t
require killers. We require soldiers..... professional, 
compassionate and
understanding,who are capable of killingif it comes to
that...which,at this time is and should be 
rare.
Our mandate is not to kill whomever we decide deserves it. no, not even 
thieves!  What do you believe our job should be?  Who do you 
think we
should kill?
-bill
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From:
  Frank 
McKerry

  To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
  Sent: Monday, March 13, 2000 
1:58
PM
  Subject: Just a QUESTION 
?

  Has this site become a recuiting 
station ? As for
  some of the crap that is showing-

  up about who was were and when, then 
gets nasty
  and the replies are full of

  vulger B___S____, I‘m no prude I can 
cuss
  probably better then the writers, but

  this si not the form for it. I 
joined this
  site to hear about / or hear from some

  of the Vets, some of the piecetimers 
too. One
  thing for sure OUR DEFENCE

  MINISTER at the TIME OF SOMALIA 
had to be
  an IDIOT - The Commando Units

  are trained for one thing - TO KILL - 
you don‘t
  send KILLERS ON A PEACE

  KEEPING MISSION - nor do you send 
troups among a
  people who‘s way of

  life is to STEAL. As a retired Sgt. 
now just
  plain tired and having a son who

  has retired from the Forces Sigs 
maybe someone
  will understand where I am

  coming from.
Frank
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"william durrant" <gunner10@sprint.ca>* on *Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:25:47 -0500*
Frank,
By the way, I did agree with you on your point about vulgarity. And I 
don‘t always agree with the decisions the politicians make but in  a 
perfect world they represent the people....and we work for the 
people....right or wrong, they decide.  Having your Regt. disbanded, I‘m 
sure is not a very positive experience, but may I remind you that 
Somalia wasn‘t the only deciding factor.
-bill  
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: william durrant
  To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
  Sent: Monday, March 13, 2000 2:34 PM
  Subject: Re: Just a QUESTION ?
  Frank,
  Yes, this has become a recruiting station, and I believe that every 
resource that is available to the general public should be. If civies 
want to know something bad enough to find us here, then I think we owe 
them an answer.  As for your comments about commando‘s being trained to 
kill, that‘s why they were disbanded......we don‘t  require killers.  We 
require soldiers..... professional, compassionate and understanding, who 
are capable of killing if it comes to that...which, at this time is and 
should be rare.     Our mandate is not to kill whomever we decide 
deserves it. no, not even thieves! What do you believe our job should 
be?   Who do you think we should kill?
  -bill
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Frank McKerry
    To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
    Sent: Monday, March 13, 2000 1:58 PM
    Subject: Just a QUESTION ?
    Has this site become a recuiting station ? As for some of the crap 
that is showing-
    up about who was were and when, then gets nasty and the replies are 
full of
    vulger B___S____, I‘m no prude I can cuss probably better then the 
writers, but
    this si not the form for it. I joined  this site to hear about / or 
hear from some
    of the Vets, some of the piecetimers too. One thing for sure OUR 
DEFENCE
    MINISTER at the TIME OF SOMALIA  had to be an IDIOT - The Commando 
Units
    are trained for one thing - TO KILL - you don‘t send KILLERS ON A 
PEACE
    KEEPING MISSION - nor do you send troups among a people who‘s way of
    life is to STEAL. As a retired Sgt. now just plain tired and 
having a son who
    has retired from the Forces Sigs maybe someone will understand 
where I am
    coming from. Frank
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
Frank,
By the way, I did 
agree with you on
your point about vulgarity. And I don‘t always agree with the decisions 
the
politicians make but in a perfect world they represent the 
people....and
we work for the people....right or wrong, they decide. Having your 
Regt.
disbanded, I‘m sure is not a very positive experience, but may I remind 
you that
Somalia wasn‘t the only deciding factor.
-bill 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From:
  william
  durrant 
  To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
  Sent: Monday, March 13, 2000 
2:34
PM
  Subject: Re: Just a QUESTION 
?

  Frank,

  Yes, this has 
become a recruiting
  station, and I believe that every resourcethat is available to 
the
  general public should be. If civies want to know something bad enough 
to find
  us here, then I think we owe them an answer. As for your 
comments about
  commando‘s being trained to kill, that‘s why they were 
disbanded......we
  don‘t require killers. We require soldiers..... 
professional,
  compassionate and understanding,who are capable of 
killingif it
  comes to that...which,at this time is and should be
  rare. Our mandate is not to kill whomever we 
decide
  deserves it. no, not even thieves! What do you believe our job 
should be?
   Who do you think we should kill?
  -bill

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From:
    Frank 
McKerry

    To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
    Sent: Monday, March 13, 2000 
1:58
    PM
    Subject: Just a QUESTION 
?

    Has this site become a recuiting 
station ? As
    for some of the crap that is showing-

    up about who was were and when, 
then gets nasty
    and the replies are full of

    vulger B___S____, I‘m no prude I 
can cuss
    probably better then the writers, but

    this si not the form for it. I 
joined
    this site to hear about / or hear from some

    of the Vets, some of the 
piecetimers too. One
    thing for sure OUR DEFENCE

    MINISTER at the TIME OF 
SOMALIA had to be
    an IDIOT - The Commando Units

    are trained for one thing - TO KILL 
- you don‘t
    send KILLERS ON A PEACE

    KEEPING MISSION - nor do you send 
troups among
    a people who‘s way of

    life is to STEAL. As a retired Sgt. 
now just
    plain tired and having a son who

    has retired from the Forces Sigs 
maybe
    someone will understand where I am

    coming from.
Frank
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"dave newcombe" <davebo@seaside.net>* on *Mon, 13 Mar 2000 17:00:39 -0800*
Well said!  I was under the impression that the  AIRBORNE REGT. deployed 
to Somalia,under the same U.N. mandate as did the troops in Korea.  
Therefore they were not on a peace-keeping mission at all.  I do not 
condone the conduct of the few individuals who committed those crimes, 
they should have All been punished for thier actions.  Those atrocities 
should not have alone caused the disbandment of a proud Regiment.  
However the actions of the officers of that Regiment brought shame to it 
and indeed all of Canada.  Every one one in a leadership position who 
turned a blind eye, or didn‘t take diciplinary action when required, 
should have fallen on thier sword, to save thier Regiment.  That would 
have been honourable, and possibly saved us the ensueing scandle.  Do 
they expect us to believe that the lowest ranking member therewho also 
reported the action should be the one held directly responsible.  
Leadership begins at the top, with the privledges of rank, come enormous 
responsibility.
Any thoughts on this?
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Frank McKerry
  To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
  Sent: Monday, March 13, 2000 10:58 AM
  Subject: Just a QUESTION ?
  Has this site become a recuiting station ? As for some of the crap 
that is showing-
  up about who was were and when, then gets nasty and the replies are 
full of
  vulger B___S____, I‘m no prude I can cuss probably better then the 
writers, but
  this si not the form for it. I joined  this site to hear about / or 
hear from some
  of the Vets, some of the piecetimers too. One thing for sure OUR 
DEFENCE
  MINISTER at the TIME OF SOMALIA  had to be an IDIOT - The Commando 
Units
  are trained for one thing - TO KILL - you don‘t send KILLERS ON A 
PEACE
  KEEPING MISSION - nor do you send troups among a people who‘s way of
  life is to STEAL. As a retired Sgt. now just plain tired and having 
a son who
  has retired from the Forces Sigs maybe someone will understand where 
I am
  coming from. Frank
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
Well said! I was under the 
impression that
the AIRBORNE REGT. deployed to Somalia,under the same U.N. mandate 
as did
the troops in Korea. Therefore they were not on a peace-keeping 
mission at
all. I do not condone the conduct of the few individuals who 
committed
those crimes, they should have All been punished for thier 
actions. Those
atrocities should not have alone caused the disbandment of a proud
Regiment. However the actions of the officers of that Regiment 
brought
shame to it and indeed all of Canada. Every one one in a 
leadership
position who turned a blind eye, or didn‘t take diciplinary action when
required, should have fallen on thier sword, to save thier 
Regiment. That
would have been honourable, and possibly saved us the ensueing 
scandle. Do
they expect us to believe that the lowest ranking member therewho also 
reported
the action should be the one held directly responsible. 
Leadership begins
at the top, with the privledges of rank, come enormous
responsibility.
Any thoughts on this?
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From:
  Frank 
McKerry

  To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
  Sent: Monday, March 13, 2000 
10:58
  AM
  Subject: Just a QUESTION 
?

  Has this site become a recuiting 
station ? As for
  some of the crap that is showing-

  up about who was were and when, then 
gets nasty
  and the replies are full of

  vulger B___S____, I‘m no prude I can 
cuss
  probably better then the writers, but

  this si not the form for it. I 
joined this
  site to hear about / or hear from some

  of the Vets, some of the piecetimers 
too. One
  thing for sure OUR DEFENCE

  MINISTER at the TIME OF SOMALIA 
had to be
  an IDIOT - The Commando Units

  are trained for one thing - TO KILL - 
you don‘t
  send KILLERS ON A PEACE

  KEEPING MISSION - nor do you send 
troups among a
  people who‘s way of

  life is to STEAL. As a retired Sgt. 
now just
  plain tired and having a son who

  has retired from the Forces Sigs 
maybe someone
  will understand where I am

  coming from.
Frank
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *GUYBERUBE@AOL.COM* on *Mon, 13 Mar 2000 23:14:50 EST*
Well said!
I think the government overreacted by disbanding the Airborne as a result of 
the incident in Somalia but at least the point was made. There is no place in 
the Canadian Armed Forces for the racist attitudes and savagery that led to 
the murder of that young Somali nor is there any excuse for the subsequent 
cover-up of the incident. One of the very few times I ever felt ashamed of 
being a Canadian in Pittsburgh came when I was questioned by American friends 
about what happened in Somalia. Years ago when I was in the Forces, such 
conduct by Canadians would have been thought impossible by most of us. The 
times have changed, I guess. But I still think today‘s CAF are among the best 
in the world and are a national treasure. Let‘s make sure our  national 
leaders give them the resources to stay that way.
Ubique, Quo Fas Et Gloria Ducunt.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Gunner <randr1@home.com>* on *Mon, 13 Mar 2000 21:51:38 -0700*
Dave, I don‘t want to set you off, but.....
We can get into a very good debate on whether the Airborne Regiment
should have or should have not been disbanded.  The incidents in Somalia
were but one factor, why don‘t we talk of burning cars at CFB Petawawa,
hazing rituals, incidents in Rwanda, the Airborne prima donna attitude,
the list goes on.  I think the Airbornes time had come with the
operational commitments Canada had at that time CAVALIER, HARMONY AND
MANDOLIN, STABLE/CONSTABLE, etc and Army restructuring that was
occuring at that time...the disbandment really laid the foundation for
the reestablishment of the third Infantry Bn in each Regiment.  
Secondly, I have a very hard time letting your comment that the "actions
of officers" brought shame to the Airborne Regiment and Canada.  Where
was the Sect Comd?  The Pl WO? The CSM? The RSM?  How many of them took
their release in the wake of the disbandment?  Here is the
reality...every member of the Airborne Regiment was responsible. Why? 
Because none had the guts to admit it was a Regiment out of
control...not the officers, not the Sr NCOs and not the men!  Let the
disbandment of the Airborne Regiment go...and I‘m sorry to say it is
history and will never be resurrected...let it go.
Lastly, what privledges do officers get that no one else gets? I‘d be
interested to hear what you think they get in relation to the everyone
else?  
Gunner sends....
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"The Griffith Family" <griffith@mnsi.net>* on *Tue, 14 Mar 2000 00:27:09 -0500*
You said it .. you said it brother .. they embarresed us and our country ...
they were all pompus anyways ....
> Dave, I don‘t want to set you off, but.....
>
> We can get into a very good debate on whether the Airborne Regiment
> should have or should have not been disbanded.  The incidents in Somalia
> were but one factor, why don‘t we talk of burning cars at CFB Petawawa,
> hazing rituals, incidents in Rwanda, the Airborne prima donna attitude,
> the list goes on.  I think the Airbornes time had come with the
> operational commitments Canada had at that time CAVALIER, HARMONY AND
> MANDOLIN, STABLE/CONSTABLE, etc and Army restructuring that was
> occuring at that time...the disbandment really laid the foundation for
> the reestablishment of the third Infantry Bn in each Regiment.
>
> Secondly, I have a very hard time letting your comment that the "actions
> of officers" brought shame to the Airborne Regiment and Canada.  Where
> was the Sect Comd?  The Pl WO? The CSM? The RSM?  How many of them took
> their release in the wake of the disbandment?  Here is the
> reality...every member of the Airborne Regiment was responsible. Why?
> Because none had the guts to admit it was a Regiment out of
> control...not the officers, not the Sr NCOs and not the men!  Let the
> disbandment of the Airborne Regiment go...and I‘m sorry to say it is
> history and will never be resurrected...let it go.
>
> Lastly, what privledges do officers get that no one else gets? I‘d be
> interested to hear what you think they get in relation to the everyone
> else?
>
> Gunner sends....
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"dave newcombe" <davebo@seaside.net>* on *Mon, 13 Mar 2000 23:15:27 -0800*
Good observation.
Where it reads "Officers" put leadership.  When achieving rank of any sort,
one is relieved of fatigue type duties.  You also get better pay, rotation
in/out of operational deployments.  Do you think the Jr. ranks club is
treated the same as the the Officers, or even the Snr NCO‘s mess.
More on this?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gunner" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2000 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: Just a QUESTION ?
> Dave, I don‘t want to set you off, but.....
>
> We can get into a very good debate on whether the Airborne Regiment
> should have or should have not been disbanded.  The incidents in Somalia
> were but one factor, why don‘t we talk of burning cars at CFB Petawawa,
> hazing rituals, incidents in Rwanda, the Airborne prima donna attitude,
> the list goes on.  I think the Airbornes time had come with the
> operational commitments Canada had at that time CAVALIER, HARMONY AND
> MANDOLIN, STABLE/CONSTABLE, etc and Army restructuring that was
> occuring at that time...the disbandment really laid the foundation for
> the reestablishment of the third Infantry Bn in each Regiment.
>
> Secondly, I have a very hard time letting your comment that the "actions
> of officers" brought shame to the Airborne Regiment and Canada.  Where
> was the Sect Comd?  The Pl WO? The CSM? The RSM?  How many of them took
> their release in the wake of the disbandment?  Here is the
> reality...every member of the Airborne Regiment was responsible. Why?
> Because none had the guts to admit it was a Regiment out of
> control...not the officers, not the Sr NCOs and not the men!  Let the
> disbandment of the Airborne Regiment go...and I‘m sorry to say it is
> history and will never be resurrected...let it go.
>
> Lastly, what privledges do officers get that no one else gets? I‘d be
> interested to hear what you think they get in relation to the everyone
> else?
>
> Gunner sends....
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Robert Childs" <adanac1@home.com>* on *Tue, 14 Mar 2000 07:20:56 -0500*
Take a real close look at the R22R and tell me there is no coverup. I get
sick to death of people who spout off at the mouth about the airborne, but
never served a day with them.
Bob Childs Airborne Para Rigger 1950/1972
Once Airborne Always Airborne  Good to the last drop
> Well said!
>
> I think the government overreacted by disbanding the Airborne as a result
of
> the incident in Somalia but at least the point was made. There is no place
in
> the Canadian Armed Forces for the racist attitudes and savagery that led
to
> the murder of that young Somali nor is there any excuse for the subsequent
> cover-up of the incident. One of the very few times I ever felt ashamed of
> being a Canadian in Pittsburgh came when I was questioned by American
friends
> about what happened in Somalia. Years ago when I was in the Forces, such
> conduct by Canadians would have been thought impossible by most of us. The
> times have changed, I guess. But I still think today‘s CAF are among the
best
> in the world and are a national treasure. Let‘s make sure our  national
> leaders give them the resources to stay that way.
>
> Ubique, Quo Fas Et Gloria Ducunt.
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"John Gilmour" <jgilmour@atsrecruitment.com>* on *Tue, 14 Mar 2000 08:43:28 -0500*
The Canadian military has a problem with its officer corps, too many, 
too what do they all do ? 
    -----Original Message-----
    From: dave newcombe 
    To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
    Date: Monday, March 13, 2000 8:08 PM
    Subject: Re: Just a QUESTION ?


    Well said!  I was under the impression that the  AIRBORNE REGT. 
deployed to Somalia,under the same U.N. mandate as did the troops in 
Korea.  Therefore they were not on a peace-keeping mission at all.  I do 
not condone the conduct of the few individuals who committed those 
crimes, they should have All been punished for thier actions.  Those 
atrocities should not have alone caused the disbandment of a proud 
Regiment.  However the actions of the officers of that Regiment brought 
shame to it and indeed all of Canada.  Every one one in a leadership 
position who turned a blind eye, or didn‘t take diciplinary action when 
required, should have fallen on thier sword, to save thier Regiment.  
That would have been honourable, and possibly saved us the ensueing 
scandle.  Do they expect us to believe that the lowest ranking member 
therewho also reported the action should be the one held directly 
responsible.  Leadership begins at the top, with the privledges of rank, 
come enormous responsibility.

    Any thoughts on this?
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Frank McKerry
        To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
        Sent: Monday, March 13, 2000 10:58 AM
        Subject: Just a QUESTION ?


        Has this site become a recuiting station ? As for some of the 
crap that is showing-

        up about who was were and when, then gets nasty and the replies 
are full of

        vulger B___S____, I‘m no prude I can cuss probably better then 
the writers, but

        this si not the form for it. I joined  this site to hear about / 
or hear from some

        of the Vets, some of the piecetimers too. One thing for sure OUR 
DEFENCE

        MINISTER at the TIME OF SOMALIA  had to be an IDIOT - The 
Commando Units

        are trained for one thing - TO KILL - you don‘t send KILLERS ON 
A PEACE

        KEEPING MISSION - nor do you send troups among a people who‘s 
way of

        life is to STEAL. As a retired Sgt. now just plain tired and 
having a son who

        has retired from the Forces Sigs maybe someone will understand 
where I am

        coming from. Frank
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
The Canadian military has a problem 
with its
officer corps, too many, too what do they all do ? 
    -----Original 
Message-----From:
    dave newcombe ltdavebo@seaside.netgtTo: 
army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
ltarmy@cipherlogic.on.cagt
Date:
    Monday, March 13, 2000 8:08 PMSubject: Re: Just a 
QUESTION
    ?
    Well said! I was under the 
impression
    that the AIRBORNE REGT. deployed to Somalia,under the same 
U.N.
    mandate as did the troops in Korea. Therefore they were not on 
a
    peace-keeping mission at all. I do not condone the conduct of 
the few
    individuals who committed those crimes, they should have All been 
punished
    for thier actions. Those atrocities should not have alone 
caused the
    disbandment of a proud Regiment. However the actions of the 
officers
    of that Regiment brought shame to it and indeed all of Canada. 
Every
    one one in a leadership position who turned a blind eye, or didn‘t 
take
    diciplinary action when required, should have fallen on thier sword, 
to save
    thier Regiment. That would have been honourable, and possibly 
saved us
    the ensueing scandle. Do they expect us to believe that the 
lowest
    ranking member therewho also reported the action should be the one 
held
    directly responsible. Leadership begins at the top, with the
    privledges of rank, come enormous responsibility.

    Any thoughts on this?

        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From:
        Frank
        McKerry 
        To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
        Sent: Monday, March 13, 
2000 10:58
        AM
        Subject: Just a QUESTION 
?

        Has this site become a 
recuiting station ?
        As for some of the crap that is showing-

        up about who was were and when, 
then gets
        nasty and the replies are full of

        vulger B___S____, I‘m no prude 
I can cuss
        probably better then the writers, but

        this si not the form for it. I 
joined
        this site to hear about / or hear from some

        of the Vets, some of the 
piecetimers too.
        One thing for sure OUR DEFENCE

        MINISTER at the TIME OF 
SOMALIA had
        to be an IDIOT - The Commando Units

        are trained for one thing - TO 
KILL - you
        don‘t send KILLERS ON A PEACE

        KEEPING MISSION - nor do you 
send troups
        among a people who‘s way of

        life is to STEAL. As a retired 
Sgt. now
        just plain tired and having a son who

        has retired from the Forces 
Sigs maybe
        someone will understand where I am

        coming from.
Frank
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"William J <andy> Anderson" <aanderson@sk.sympatico.ca>* on *Tue, 14 Mar 2000 07:51:21 -0600*
on 13/3/00 22:51, my good friend Gunner at randr1@home.com wrote:
> Dave, I don‘t want to set you off, but.....
> 
> We can get into a very good debate on whether the Airborne Regiment
> should have or should have not been disbanded.  The incidents in Somalia
> were but one factor, why don‘t we talk of burning cars at CFB Petawawa,
> hazing rituals, incidents in Rwanda, the Airborne prima donna attitude,
> the list goes on.  I think the Airbornes time had come with the
> operational commitments Canada had at that time CAVALIER, HARMONY AND
> MANDOLIN, STABLE/CONSTABLE, etc and Army restructuring that was
> occuring at that time...the disbandment really laid the foundation for
> the reestablishment of the third Infantry Bn in each Regiment.
I still think it was a knee jerk reaction to a lot of bad press and the
consequential public outcry for somebody‘s head on a stick. The MND offered
up the Regiment as the sacrificial lamb and it seemed to satisfy the hords
of Canadians with their heads up their asses. No amount of debate will ever
convince the members of the CAR that it was right. Elite troops are always
under a ‘microscope‘ of sorts. I suspect that many soldiers with a twinge of
jealousy heaved a sigh of relief and said ‘good riddence to that
swashbuckling lot!‘
Were the members of the Regiment a bunch of Prima Donas? I‘d say yes we
were. That is how they recruited us, they set us apart that way. We wore
different boots maroon berets. We trained different and oft times harder.
When we moved from Edmonton to Petawawa in ‘77 there were lots of problems.
Just the fact that a bunch of new guys were in ‘town‘ trying to show off how
good they were caused no end of headaches. The Comd at the time decided to
open our doors to the press and let them see for themselves that
paratroopers merely did things a little different. That was met with reports
of bar brawls and sexual assaults. It was not what the then Comd Col
Painchaud had hoped for but we weathered the storm and shared our jump
smocks with the rest of the Brigade.
Soldiers are a product of society. They simply gather together and are much
more easily scrutinised. The military has rapists, child molesters, thieves
and murders in its ranks. It is a horrifying thought, but then again, so has
Canada in it population. Some get caught and punished and some do not.
Should we recruit different? Perhaps. The word ‘coverup‘ is a bothersome
word to me and always will be. I have a hard time believing that murder
would have been covered up.
> 
> Secondly, I have a very hard time letting your comment that the "actions
> of officers" brought shame to the Airborne Regiment and Canada.  Where
> was the Sect Comd?  The Pl WO? The CSM? The RSM?  How many of them took
> their release in the wake of the disbandment?  Here is the
> reality...every member of the Airborne Regiment was responsible. Why?
> Because none had the guts to admit it was a Regiment out of
> control...not the officers, not the Sr NCOs and not the men!  Let the
> disbandment of the Airborne Regiment go...and I‘m sorry to say it is
> history and will never be resurrected...let it go.
It may never be resurected but there are those of us who will never let it
go. Was it a Regiment out of control or was it a Regiment that needed a tune
up? Those are the questions that should be asked and asked often... lest it
happen again. Will a rape or a murder or god forbid a bank robbery lead to
another unit‘s demise?
> 
> Lastly, what privledges do officers get that no one else gets? I‘d be
> interested to hear what you think they get in relation to the everyone
> else?
uhm? A salute?  
> 
> Gunner sends....
arte et marte
andy sends:
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"John Gilmour" <jgilmour@atsrecruitment.com>* on *Tue, 14 Mar 2000 08:52:09 -0500*
AGREED !
-----Original Message-----
From: The Griffith Family 
To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
Date: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 12:44 AM
Subject: Re: Just a QUESTION ?
>You said it .. you said it brother .. they embarresed us and our country
...
>they were all pompus anyways ....
>
>
>> Dave, I don‘t want to set you off, but.....
>>
>> We can get into a very good debate on whether the Airborne Regiment
>> should have or should have not been disbanded.  The incidents in Somalia
>> were but one factor, why don‘t we talk of burning cars at CFB Petawawa,
>> hazing rituals, incidents in Rwanda, the Airborne prima donna attitude,
>> the list goes on.  I think the Airbornes time had come with the
>> operational commitments Canada had at that time CAVALIER, HARMONY AND
>> MANDOLIN, STABLE/CONSTABLE, etc and Army restructuring that was
>> occuring at that time...the disbandment really laid the foundation for
>> the reestablishment of the third Infantry Bn in each Regiment.
>>
>> Secondly, I have a very hard time letting your comment that the "actions
>> of officers" brought shame to the Airborne Regiment and Canada.  Where
>> was the Sect Comd?  The Pl WO? The CSM? The RSM?  How many of them took
>> their release in the wake of the disbandment?  Here is the
>> reality...every member of the Airborne Regiment was responsible. Why?
>> Because none had the guts to admit it was a Regiment out of
>> control...not the officers, not the Sr NCOs and not the men!  Let the
>> disbandment of the Airborne Regiment go...and I‘m sorry to say it is
>> history and will never be resurrected...let it go.
>>
>> Lastly, what privledges do officers get that no one else gets? I‘d be
>> interested to hear what you think they get in relation to the everyone
>> else?
>>
>> Gunner sends....
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>> message body.
>>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
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>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>message body.
>
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Gunner <randr1@home.com>* on *Tue, 14 Mar 2000 07:20:01 -0700*
R22R, RCR or PPCLI they all wore the same uniform and are therefore
responsible for what happened.
Secondly, just because someone never served with the Airborne does not
negate their opportunity to speak out on issues hey, that‘s why there
is this service.  I have never been so embarrassed as a soldier then
during the Somalia Commission and the subsequent disbandment of the
Airborne.  If you think the disbandment was only about the Airborne,
only effected people in the Airborne, then you are dead wrong.  The
Airborne Regt is gone...the army has to continually live with the
consequences of their actions.  
Robert Childs wrote:
> 
> Take a real close look at the R22R and tell me there is no coverup. I get
> sick to death of people who spout off at the mouth about the airborne, but
> never served a day with them.
> Bob Childs Airborne Para Rigger 1950/1972
> Once Airborne Always Airborne  Good to the last drop
> 
> > Well said!
> >
> > I think the government overreacted by disbanding the Airborne as a result
> of
> > the incident in Somalia but at least the point was made. There is no place
> in
> > the Canadian Armed Forces for the racist attitudes and savagery that led
> to
> > the murder of that young Somali nor is there any excuse for the subsequent
> > cover-up of the incident. One of the very few times I ever felt ashamed of
> > being a Canadian in Pittsburgh came when I was questioned by American
> friends
> > about what happened in Somalia. Years ago when I was in the Forces, such
> > conduct by Canadians would have been thought impossible by most of us. The
> > times have changed, I guess. But I still think today‘s CAF are among the
> best
> > in the world and are a national treasure. Let‘s make sure our  national
> > leaders give them the resources to stay that way.
> >
> > Ubique, Quo Fas Et Gloria Ducunt.
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Gunner <randr1@home.com>* on *Tue, 14 Mar 2000 07:32:17 -0700*
A couple of comments prior to going to work!
I agree the Airborne Regt was designed to be elite tps the airborne
mystic.  However, because they were never utilized in such a role
after the drop into Cyprus they stagnated.  Stagnation led to rot, and
the Somalia affair and all its associated problems were the proverbial
straw.  To tell you the truth, I think the entire army had problems at
that time.  Look at some of the stories of early Croatia and Bosnia -
when went in with a Cyprus mindset and there was no peace to keep.
The idea soldiers are merely a reflection of society is a false notion. 
Soldiers are suppose to be better trained, better led, and more
importantly better disciplined.  Why would we put up with them in our
midst?  Too often the Regt families will cover up for them with the
misguided notion of taking care of them.  Let‘s look out for the Army
not the Regt.
Finally, the incredible perks and benefits that are due an officer come
down to one thing?  A salute?  I didn‘t realize it was such a
perk........Officers are sometimes forced to make tough decisions
indeed some make bad ones - hasn‘t everyone.  There are good ones and
there are bad ones.  This is true of any rank...let‘s not demonify the
officers‘ - most of the ones I work with try to do the right thing...its
the system that has failed the military.
Gunner sends.... 
"William J Anderson" wrote:
> 
> on 13/3/00 22:51, my good friend Gunner at randr1@home.com wrote:
> 
> > Dave, I don‘t want to set you off, but.....
> >
> > We can get into a very good debate on whether the Airborne Regiment
> > should have or should have not been disbanded.  The incidents in Somalia
> > were but one factor, why don‘t we talk of burning cars at CFB Petawawa,
> > hazing rituals, incidents in Rwanda, the Airborne prima donna attitude,
> > the list goes on.  I think the Airbornes time had come with the
> > operational commitments Canada had at that time CAVALIER, HARMONY AND
> > MANDOLIN, STABLE/CONSTABLE, etc and Army restructuring that was
> > occuring at that time...the disbandment really laid the foundation for
> > the reestablishment of the third Infantry Bn in each Regiment.
> 
> I still think it was a knee jerk reaction to a lot of bad press and the
> consequential public outcry for somebody‘s head on a stick. The MND offered
> up the Regiment as the sacrificial lamb and it seemed to satisfy the hords
> of Canadians with their heads up their asses. No amount of debate will ever
> convince the members of the CAR that it was right. Elite troops are always
> under a ‘microscope‘ of sorts. I suspect that many soldiers with a twinge of
> jealousy heaved a sigh of relief and said ‘good riddence to that
> swashbuckling lot!‘
> 
> Were the members of the Regiment a bunch of Prima Donas? I‘d say yes we
> were. That is how they recruited us, they set us apart that way. We wore
> different boots maroon berets. We trained different and oft times harder.
> When we moved from Edmonton to Petawawa in ‘77 there were lots of problems.
> Just the fact that a bunch of new guys were in ‘town‘ trying to show off how
> good they were caused no end of headaches. The Comd at the time decided to
> open our doors to the press and let them see for themselves that
> paratroopers merely did things a little different. That was met with reports
> of bar brawls and sexual assaults. It was not what the then Comd Col
> Painchaud had hoped for but we weathered the storm and shared our jump
> smocks with the rest of the Brigade.
> 
> Soldiers are a product of society. They simply gather together and are much
> more easily scrutinised. The military has rapists, child molesters, thieves
> and murders in its ranks. It is a horrifying thought, but then again, so has
> Canada in it population. Some get caught and punished and some do not.
> Should we recruit different? Perhaps. The word ‘coverup‘ is a bothersome
> word to me and always will be. I have a hard time believing that murder
> would have been covered up.
> >
> > Secondly, I have a very hard time letting your comment that the "actions
> > of officers" brought shame to the Airborne Regiment and Canada.  Where
> > was the Sect Comd?  The Pl WO? The CSM? The RSM?  How many of them took
> > their release in the wake of the disbandment?  Here is the
> > reality...every member of the Airborne Regiment was responsible. Why?
> > Because none had the guts to admit it was a Regiment out of
> > control...not the officers, not the Sr NCOs and not the men!  Let the
> > disbandment of the Airborne Regiment go...and I‘m sorry to say it is
> > history and will never be resurrected...let it go.
> 
> It may never be resurected but there are those of us who will never let it
> go. Was it a Regiment out of control or was it a Regiment that needed a tune
> up? Those are the questions that should be asked and asked often... lest it
> happen again. Will a rape or a murder or god forbid a bank robbery lead to
> another unit‘s demise?
> >
> > Lastly, what privledges do officers get that no one else gets? I‘d be
> > interested to hear what you think they get in relation to the everyone
> > else?
> 
> uhm? A salute?
> >
> > Gunner sends....
> 
> arte et marte
> andy sends:
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"I Michael Gough" <s22617@rmc.ca>* on *Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:35:24 -0500*
What makes a good leader?
comments?
mike
"William J Anderson" wrote:
> on 13/3/00 22:51, my good friend Gunner at randr1@home.com wrote:
>
> > Dave, I don‘t want to set you off, but.....
> >
> > We can get into a very good debate on whether the Airborne Regiment
> > should have or should have not been disbanded.  The incidents in Somalia
> > were but one factor, why don‘t we talk of burning cars at CFB Petawawa,
> > hazing rituals, incidents in Rwanda, the Airborne prima donna attitude,
> > the list goes on.  I think the Airbornes time had come with the
> > operational commitments Canada had at that time CAVALIER, HARMONY AND
> > MANDOLIN, STABLE/CONSTABLE, etc and Army restructuring that was
> > occuring at that time...the disbandment really laid the foundation for
> > the reestablishment of the third Infantry Bn in each Regiment.
>
> I still think it was a knee jerk reaction to a lot of bad press and the
> consequential public outcry for somebody‘s head on a stick. The MND offered
> up the Regiment as the sacrificial lamb and it seemed to satisfy the hords
> of Canadians with their heads up their asses. No amount of debate will ever
> convince the members of the CAR that it was right. Elite troops are always
> under a ‘microscope‘ of sorts. I suspect that many soldiers with a twinge of
> jealousy heaved a sigh of relief and said ‘good riddence to that
> swashbuckling lot!‘
>
> Were the members of the Regiment a bunch of Prima Donas? I‘d say yes we
> were. That is how they recruited us, they set us apart that way. We wore
> different boots maroon berets. We trained different and oft times harder.
> When we moved from Edmonton to Petawawa in ‘77 there were lots of problems.
> Just the fact that a bunch of new guys were in ‘town‘ trying to show off how
> good they were caused no end of headaches. The Comd at the time decided to
> open our doors to the press and let them see for themselves that
> paratroopers merely did things a little different. That was met with reports
> of bar brawls and sexual assaults. It was not what the then Comd Col
> Painchaud had hoped for but we weathered the storm and shared our jump
> smocks with the rest of the Brigade.
>
> Soldiers are a product of society. They simply gather together and are much
> more easily scrutinised. The military has rapists, child molesters, thieves
> and murders in its ranks. It is a horrifying thought, but then again, so has
> Canada in it population. Some get caught and punished and some do not.
> Should we recruit different? Perhaps. The word ‘coverup‘ is a bothersome
> word to me and always will be. I have a hard time believing that murder
> would have been covered up.
> >
> > Secondly, I have a very hard time letting your comment that the "actions
> > of officers" brought shame to the Airborne Regiment and Canada.  Where
> > was the Sect Comd?  The Pl WO? The CSM? The RSM?  How many of them took
> > their release in the wake of the disbandment?  Here is the
> > reality...every member of the Airborne Regiment was responsible. Why?
> > Because none had the guts to admit it was a Regiment out of
> > control...not the officers, not the Sr NCOs and not the men!  Let the
> > disbandment of the Airborne Regiment go...and I‘m sorry to say it is
> > history and will never be resurrected...let it go.
>
> It may never be resurected but there are those of us who will never let it
> go. Was it a Regiment out of control or was it a Regiment that needed a tune
> up? Those are the questions that should be asked and asked often... lest it
> happen again. Will a rape or a murder or god forbid a bank robbery lead to
> another unit‘s demise?
> >
> > Lastly, what privledges do officers get that no one else gets? I‘d be
> > interested to hear what you think they get in relation to the everyone
> > else?
>
> uhm? A salute?
> >
> > Gunner sends....
>
> arte et marte
> andy sends:
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"dave newcombe" <davebo@seaside.net>* on *Tue, 14 Mar 2000 07:23:27 -0800*
I too have served with some excellent officers.  I don‘t want to cast all of
them in the same lot.  They are the people who make the decisions, and who
bear ultimate responsibility for them.  That is why it takes a special
person to be in that position.  How did so  people Jr NCO‘s, Sr NCO‘s, and
Officers get to congregate in one spot.  It is obvious that much was
overlooked, and tolerated from the troops.  Within the Regt. lies the powwer
to effectively discipline the m,en.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gunner" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 6:32 AM
Subject: Re: Just a QUESTION ?
A couple of comments prior to going to work!
I agree the Airborne Regt was designed to be elite tps the airborne
mystic.  However, because they were never utilized in such a role
after the drop into Cyprus they stagnated.  Stagnation led to rot, and
the Somalia affair and all its associated problems were the proverbial
straw.  To tell you the truth, I think the entire army had problems at
that time.  Look at some of the stories of early Croatia and Bosnia -
when went in with a Cyprus mindset and there was no peace to keep.
The idea soldiers are merely a reflection of society is a false notion.
Soldiers are suppose to be better trained, better led, and more
importantly better disciplined.  Why would we put up with them in our
midst?  Too often the Regt families will cover up for them with the
misguided notion of taking care of them.  Let‘s look out for the Army
not the Regt.
Finally, the incredible perks and benefits that are due an officer come
down to one thing?  A salute?  I didn‘t realize it was such a
perk........Officers are sometimes forced to make tough decisions
indeed some make bad ones - hasn‘t everyone.  There are good ones and
there are bad ones.  This is true of any rank...let‘s not demonify the
officers‘ - most of the ones I work with try to do the right thing...its
the system that has failed the military.
Gunner sends....
"William J Anderson" wrote:
>
> on 13/3/00 22:51, my good friend Gunner at randr1@home.com wrote:
>
> > Dave, I don‘t want to set you off, but.....
> >
> > We can get into a very good debate on whether the Airborne Regiment
> > should have or should have not been disbanded.  The incidents in Somalia
> > were but one factor, why don‘t we talk of burning cars at CFB Petawawa,
> > hazing rituals, incidents in Rwanda, the Airborne prima donna attitude,
> > the list goes on.  I think the Airbornes time had come with the
> > operational commitments Canada had at that time CAVALIER, HARMONY AND
> > MANDOLIN, STABLE/CONSTABLE, etc and Army restructuring that was
> > occuring at that time...the disbandment really laid the foundation for
> > the reestablishment of the third Infantry Bn in each Regiment.
>
> I still think it was a knee jerk reaction to a lot of bad press and the
> consequential public outcry for somebody‘s head on a stick. The MND
offered
> up the Regiment as the sacrificial lamb and it seemed to satisfy the hords
> of Canadians with their heads up their asses. No amount of debate will
ever
> convince the members of the CAR that it was right. Elite troops are always
> under a ‘microscope‘ of sorts. I suspect that many soldiers with a twinge
of
> jealousy heaved a sigh of relief and said ‘good riddence to that
> swashbuckling lot!‘
>
> Were the members of the Regiment a bunch of Prima Donas? I‘d say yes we
> were. That is how they recruited us, they set us apart that way. We wore
> different boots maroon berets. We trained different and oft times harder.
> When we moved from Edmonton to Petawawa in ‘77 there were lots of
problems.
> Just the fact that a bunch of new guys were in ‘town‘ trying to show off
how
> good they were caused no end of headaches. The Comd at the time decided to
> open our doors to the press and let them see for themselves that
> paratroopers merely did things a little different. That was met with
reports
> of bar brawls and sexual assaults. It was not what the then Comd Col
> Painchaud had hoped for but we weathered the storm and shared our jump
> smocks with the rest of the Brigade.
>
> Soldiers are a product of society. They simply gather together and are
much
> more easily scrutinised. The military has rapists, child molesters,
thieves
> and murders in its ranks. It is a horrifying thought, but then again, so
has
> Canada in it population. Some get caught and punished and some do not.
> Should we recruit different? Perhaps. The word ‘coverup‘ is a bothersome
> word to me and always will be. I have a hard time believing that murder
> would have been covered up.
> >
> > Secondly, I have a very hard time letting your comment that the "actions
> > of officers" brought shame to the Airborne Regiment and Canada.  Where
> > was the Sect Comd?  The Pl WO? The CSM? The RSM?  How many of them took
> > their release in the wake of the disbandment?  Here is the
> > reality...every member of the Airborne Regiment was responsible. Why?
> > Because none had the guts to admit it was a Regiment out of
> > control...not the officers, not the Sr NCOs and not the men!  Let the
> > disbandment of the Airborne Regiment go...and I‘m sorry to say it is
> > history and will never be resurrected...let it go.
>
> It may never be resurected but there are those of us who will never let it
> go. Was it a Regiment out of control or was it a Regiment that needed a
tune
> up? Those are the questions that should be asked and asked often... lest
it
> happen again. Will a rape or a murder orS god forbidS a bank robbery lead
to
> another unit‘s demise?
> >
> > Lastly, what privledges do officers get that no one else gets? I‘d be
> > interested to hear what you think they get in relation to the everyone
> > else?
>
> uhm? A salute?
> >
> > Gunner sends....
>
> arte et marte
> andy sends:
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Carl DINSDALE <joscol@mb.sympatico.ca>* on *Tue, 14 Mar 2000 11:26:57 -0600*
--------------83993F5DEC44F418B122D4C0
You‘re absolutely correct and this was one of the biggest catalysts in
the NCO ranks losing all faith in the officer ranks. It was apparent,
even to the civies, that the officers were a very tight boys club and
were only ready to take responsibility in theatre for positive things.
As soon as the fit hit the shan, they seemed to forget that they were
ultimately responsible for everything that happens in theatre and were
quick to ensure that a complete investigation only pointed to one low
ranking officer and a lot of non-coms. It shook my faith in the entire
system and was one of the biggest pushes I received in deciding to get
out. I joined the RCMP and while an officer is still an officer, they
all had to go to Depot and start exactly where I did, not a bad idea for
the DND to adopt. The best officers I ever met were former NCOs with a
few exceptions. The trial in Petawawa for all involved in the Somalia
scandal also brought to light the problems with the military justice
system. Was it justice to have a senior private tried by a panel of
officers? It is insulting to the NCO ranks that they are not deemed
capable of impartially judging other members of the CF of similar rank.
A navy officer cannot honestly say he knows what it is like to be a
private infanteer, he doesn‘t have a clue. I think it can be improved,
does anyone have any ideas how?
Carl
dave newcombe wrote:
>   Well said!  I was under the impression that the  AIRBORNE REGT.
> deployed to Somalia,under the same U.N. mandate as did the troops in
> Korea.  Therefore they were not on a peace-keeping mission at all.  I
> do not condone the conduct of the few individuals who committed those
> crimes, they should have All been punished for thier actions.  Those
> atrocities should not have alone caused the disbandment of a proud
> Regiment.  However the actions of the officers of that Regiment
> brought shame to it and indeed all of Canada.  Every one one in a
> leadership position who turned a blind eye, or didn‘t take diciplinary
> action when required, should have fallen on thier sword, to save thier
> Regiment.  That would have been honourable, and possibly saved us the
> ensueing scandle.  Do they expect us to believe that the lowest
> ranking member therewho also reported the action should be the one
> held directly responsible.  Leadership begins at the top, with the
> privledges of rank, come enormous responsibility. Any thoughts on
> this?
>
>      ----- Original Message -----
>      From: Frank McKerry
>      To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>      Sent: Monday, March 13, 2000 10:58 AM
>      Subject: Just a QUESTION ?
>       Has this site become a recuiting station ? As for some of
>      the crap that is showing- up about who was were and when,
>      then gets nasty and the replies are full of vulger
>      B___S____, I‘m no prude I can cuss probably better then the
>      writers, but this si not the form for it. I joined  this
>      site to hear about / or hear from some of the Vets, some of
>      the piecetimers too. One thing for sure OUR DEFENCE MINISTER
>      at the TIME OF SOMALIA  had to be an IDIOT - The Commando
>      Units are trained for one thing - TO KILL - you don‘t send
>      KILLERS ON A PEACE KEEPING MISSION - nor do you send troups
>      among a people who‘s way of life is to STEAL. As a retired
>      Sgt. now just plain tired and having a son who has retired
>      from the Forces Sigs maybe someone will understand where I
>      am coming from. Frank
>
--------------83993F5DEC44F418B122D4C0
You‘re absolutely correct and this was one of the biggest catalysts in
the NCO ranks losing all faith in the officer ranks. It was apparent, even
to the civies, that the officers were a very tight boys club and were only
ready to take responsibility in theatre for positive things. As soon as
the fit hit the shan, they seemed to forget that they were ultimately responsible
for everything that happens in theatre and were quick to ensure that a
complete investigation only pointed to one low ranking officer and a lot
of non-coms. It shook my faith in the entire system and was one of the
biggest pushes I received in deciding to get out. I joined the RCMP and
while an officer is still an officer, they all had to go to Depot and start
exactly where I did, not a bad idea for the DND to adopt. The best officers
I ever met were former NCOs with a few exceptions. The trial in Petawawa
for all involved in the Somalia scandal also brought to light the problems
with the military justice system. Was it justice to have a senior private
tried by a panel of officers? It is insulting to the NCO ranks that they
are not deemed capable of impartially judging other members of the CF of
similar rank. A navy officer cannot honestly say he knows what it is like
to be a private infanteer, he doesn‘t have a clue. I think it can be improved,
does anyone have any ideas how?
Carl
dave newcombe wrote:
Well
said! I was under the impression that the AIRBORNE REGT. deployed
to Somalia,under the same U.N. mandate as did the troops in Korea.
Therefore they were not on a peace-keeping mission at all. I do not
condone the conduct of the few individuals who committed those crimes,
they should have All been punished for thier actions. Those atrocities
should not have alone caused the disbandment of a proud Regiment.
However the actions of the officers of that Regiment brought shame to it
and indeed all of Canada. Every one one in a leadership position
who turned a blind eye, or didn‘t take diciplinary action when required,
should have fallen on thier sword, to save thier Regiment. That would
have been honourable, and possibly saved us the ensueing scandle.
Do they expect us to believe that the lowest ranking member therewho also
reported the action should be the one held directly responsible.
Leadership begins at the top, with the privledges of rank, come enormous
responsibility.Any
thoughts on this?
----- Original Message -----
From:
Frank McKerry
To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2000 10:58
AM
Subject: Just a QUESTION ?
Has this site become a recuiting
station ? As for some of the crap that is showing-up
about who was were and when, then gets nasty and the replies are full ofvulger
B___S____, I‘m no prude I can cuss probably better then the writers, butthis
si not the form for it. I joined this site to hear about / or hear
from someof the Vets,
some of the piecetimers too. One thing for sure OUR DEFENCEMINISTER
at the TIME OF SOMALIA had to be an IDIOT - The Commando Unitsare
trained for one thing - TO KILL - you don‘t send KILLERS ON A PEACEKEEPING
MISSION - nor do you send troups among a people who‘s way oflife
is to STEAL. As a retired Sgt. now just plain tired and having a son
whohas retired from
the Forces Sigs maybe someone will understand where I amcoming
from. Frank
--------------83993F5DEC44F418B122D4C0--
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"John Pullman" <jpullman@bserv.com>* on *Tue, 14 Mar 2000 20:09:07 -0800*
I served eight years in the Airborne 77-85 and I count that as one of 
the shining points in my military career and personal life. Never killed 
anyone, and never went thru an inititiation rite other then the Maroon 
Beret course. Some of the finest people I ever knew served with me. 
Point of interest on Somalia. A Sgt in Mortar Platoon Neil Reese 
reported a discrepency when he assumed the Duty Sgt position and he was 
told that "the prisoner is sick." No prisoner listed in the duty book, 
and the ball started rolling. Neil was doing his job and it went up the 
chain of command. After a bit of dust settling some people may say 
coverup, but I‘ve been around long enough to say that they were probably 
getting their facts together the Mcpl was charged.
Guess what happens next. The CO is under investigation and I believe 
was also charged because it happened when he was in command.
A lot of other factors are involved and I‘m not going to be drawn into 
them. But the bottom line is somewhat ironic. For the Officer corp, if 
anything bad happens it, cover it up. If your caught, well, your 
punished. If your not caught, your career continues on its merry way. 
But if you do the right and honourable thing, you will be punished as if 
you did the wrong thing and got caught. Sure, you might get a lesser 
punishment, but your career will still be on the skids.
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
I served eight years in the Airborne 
77-85 and
I count that as one of the shining points in my military career and 
personal
life. Never killed anyone, and never went thru an inititiation rite 
other then
the Maroon Beret course. Some of the finest people I ever knew served 
with me.
Point of interest on Somalia. A Sgt in Mortar Platoon Neil Reese 
reported a
discrepency when he assumed the Duty Sgt position and he was told that 
quotthe
prisoner is sick.quot No prisoner listed in the duty book, and the 
ball
started rolling. Neil was doing his job and it went up the chain of 
command.
After a bit of dust settling some people may say coverup, but I‘ve been 
around
long enough to say that they were probably getting their facts together 
the
Mcpl was charged.
Guess what 
happens next. The
CO is under investigation and I believe was also charged because it 
happened
when he was in command.
A lot of other factors are involved and I‘m not 
going to be
drawn into them. But the bottom line is somewhat ironic. For the Officer 
corp,
if anything bad happens it, cover it up. If your caught, well, your 
punished. If
your not caught, your career continues on its merry way. But if you do 
the right
and honourable thing, you will be punished as if you did the wrong thing 
and got
caught. Sure, you might get a lesser punishment, but your career will 
still be
on the skids.

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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"John Pullman" <jpullman@bserv.com>* on *Tue, 14 Mar 2000 20:17:09 -0800*
I‘ve always found it interesting that people who have never challenged
themselves seem to grind their teeth when in the presence of someone who
has, met the challenge and quite properly feel proud of themselves.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: The Griffith Family 
To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
Date: March 13, 2000 9:46 PM
Subject: Re: Just a QUESTION ?
>You said it .. you said it brother .. they embarresed us and our country
...
>they were all pompus anyways ....
>
>
>> Dave, I don‘t want to set you off, but.....
>>
>> We can get into a very good debate on whether the Airborne Regiment
>> should have or should have not been disbanded.  The incidents in Somalia
>> were but one factor, why don‘t we talk of burning cars at CFB Petawawa,
>> hazing rituals, incidents in Rwanda, the Airborne prima donna attitude,
>> the list goes on.  I think the Airbornes time had come with the
>> operational commitments Canada had at that time CAVALIER, HARMONY AND
>> MANDOLIN, STABLE/CONSTABLE, etc and Army restructuring that was
>> occuring at that time...the disbandment really laid the foundation for
>> the reestablishment of the third Infantry Bn in each Regiment.
>>
>> Secondly, I have a very hard time letting your comment that the "actions
>> of officers" brought shame to the Airborne Regiment and Canada.  Where
>> was the Sect Comd?  The Pl WO? The CSM? The RSM?  How many of them took
>> their release in the wake of the disbandment?  Here is the
>> reality...every member of the Airborne Regiment was responsible. Why?
>> Because none had the guts to admit it was a Regiment out of
>> control...not the officers, not the Sr NCOs and not the men!  Let the
>> disbandment of the Airborne Regiment go...and I‘m sorry to say it is
>> history and will never be resurrected...let it go.
>>
>> Lastly, what privledges do officers get that no one else gets? I‘d be
>> interested to hear what you think they get in relation to the everyone
>> else?
>>
>> Gunner sends....
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>> message body.
>>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
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>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>message body.
>
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Gunner <randr1@home.com>* on *Tue, 14 Mar 2000 21:14:04 -0700*
What is your definition of being challenged?  If all the challenge you
had was based on being Airborne, I think you‘ve lived a very narrow
life.    
To insult the rest of us "non-Airborne" simply because we have an
opinion on the disbandment is simplistic.  We are stating our opinions
and as members of the military who have to deal with public opinion
after the Airborne‘s aftermath we are entitled to it and more
importantly we are entitled to share it with this service.  Once again I
state "the media did not invent what went wrong with the Airborne
Regt...we the Army allowed it to happen".  We must all share the
blame...offrs, NCOs and soldiers.  The Airborne Regt is gone...lets live
in the present and look to the future.
Finally, I don‘t think anyone has belittled what you or anyone else in
the Airborne may have accomplished and if I insinuated as such, I
apologize.  Facts are facts and until someone shows me evidence to the
contrary I think the Army is better off without the Airborne.   
John Pullman wrote:
> 
> I‘ve always found it interesting that people who have never challenged
> themselves seem to grind their teeth when in the presence of someone who
> has, met the challenge and quite properly feel proud of themselves.
> John
> -----Original Message-----
> From: The Griffith Family 
> To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
> Date: March 13, 2000 9:46 PM
> Subject: Re: Just a QUESTION ?
> 
> >You said it .. you said it brother .. they embarresed us and our country
> ...
> >they were all pompus anyways ....
> >
> >
> >> Dave, I don‘t want to set you off, but.....
> >>
> >> We can get into a very good debate on whether the Airborne Regiment
> >> should have or should have not been disbanded.  The incidents in Somalia
> >> were but one factor, why don‘t we talk of burning cars at CFB Petawawa,
> >> hazing rituals, incidents in Rwanda, the Airborne prima donna attitude,
> >> the list goes on.  I think the Airbornes time had come with the
> >> operational commitments Canada had at that time CAVALIER, HARMONY AND
> >> MANDOLIN, STABLE/CONSTABLE, etc and Army restructuring that was
> >> occuring at that time...the disbandment really laid the foundation for
> >> the reestablishment of the third Infantry Bn in each Regiment.
> >>
> >> Secondly, I have a very hard time letting your comment that the "actions
> >> of officers" brought shame to the Airborne Regiment and Canada.  Where
> >> was the Sect Comd?  The Pl WO? The CSM? The RSM?  How many of them took
> >> their release in the wake of the disbandment?  Here is the
> >> reality...every member of the Airborne Regiment was responsible. Why?
> >> Because none had the guts to admit it was a Regiment out of
> >> control...not the officers, not the Sr NCOs and not the men!  Let the
> >> disbandment of the Airborne Regiment go...and I‘m sorry to say it is
> >> history and will never be resurrected...let it go.
> >>
> >> Lastly, what privledges do officers get that no one else gets? I‘d be
> >> interested to hear what you think they get in relation to the everyone
> >> else?
> >>
> >> Gunner sends....
> >> --------------------------------------------------------
> >> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> >> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> >> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> >> message body.
> >>
> >
> >--------------------------------------------------------
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> >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> >message body.
> >
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"John Pullman" <jpullman@bserv.com>* on *Wed, 15 Mar 2000 10:44:47 -0800*
Actually my challenging career involved several factors...Being the first
RCR Air observer no stress there, knowing the entire Regiment was looking
to see if I failed, the first infantry lead observer because I was
promoted to WO, no doubt as a direct result of passing the course etc. ad
nauseum. I‘m also proud of those accomplishments too.
I have found though that the majority of denigatory remarks to either elite
units/airborne/specialist whatever, are by individuals who have never proven
themselves, nor do they wish to. Its easier to sit back and reflect then to
actually do it. **** , I had one candidate for the Observer course, who
failed and then came back and told all of the observer cell, that "They only
pass you if they like you." I do not mean to say that all personell in other
units are substandard. They can‘t be. Where do the personell come from that
go to the more "Elite" units? But people do get there hackles up when the
phrase "Get some time in before you talk to me." arise.
Possibly the reason that ex-airborne may be so reactive is that as long as I
was in 15 years there were always emotional arguments against anything
elite. I personnally thought it was a bit of an inferiority thing on some
people, but others had legit arguments. Cost being the main one.
-----Original Message---
From: Gunner 
To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
Date: March 14, 2000 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: Just a QUESTION ?
>What is your definition of being challenged?  If all the challenge you
>had was based on being Airborne, I think you‘ve lived a very narrow
>life.
>
>To insult the rest of us "non-Airborne" simply because we have an
>opinion on the disbandment is simplistic.  We are stating our opinions
>and as members of the military who have to deal with public opinion
>after the Airborne‘s aftermath we are entitled to it and more
>importantly we are entitled to share it with this service.  Once again I
>state "the media did not invent what went wrong with the Airborne
>Regt...we the Army allowed it to happen".  We must all share the
>blame...offrs, NCOs and soldiers.  The Airborne Regt is gone...lets live
>in the present and look to the future.
>
>Finally, I don‘t think anyone has belittled what you or anyone else in
>the Airborne may have accomplished and if I insinuated as such, I
>apologize.  Facts are facts and until someone shows me evidence to the
>contrary I think the Army is better off without the Airborne.
>
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