# Hearing (Merged) Including Hearing Tests and Hearing Categories



## Iceburner

I cant get ahold of my recruiter so i need some help...i got my medical results back today they seem to be fine but..they said my hearing does not meet the the common enrolment standard but says at the bottom the canadian forces recruiting centre detachment regina cab advise of the final decision concerning my application..help plz what does this mean?


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## kincanucks

It means that unless there are administrative procedures that will necessitate a waiver of the common enrolment medical standards (CEMS), you are SOL The waiver can be asked for if the applicant is a reservist and is are skilled in the trade they are going into.   Are you a reservist?


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## Iceburner

no im not a reservist..i was applying for signal operator...i dont mean to sound stupid but i didnt quite get what you were saying..it sounds like its up to the reserve if i can join up?


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## Michael OLeary

No, it's up to the CFRC to give you the bad news (if any), not the medics.


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## scottyeH?

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> No, it's up to the CFRC to give you the bad news (if any), not the medics.



So that's a better thing, if your well liked and seemed well suited by your recruiting office then
rather then going threw the medics


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## kincanucks

Okay I see that I am not getting through here.  They put that in the letter in case there are any administrative procedures that could be used to enrol you even though you don't meet the CEMS.  However,  the only available administrative procedures to possibly enrol someone who does not meet the CEMS are for serving reservists who are doing a component transfer and are skilled in the occupation they are transferring to.  It has nothing to do with whether the CFRC/D likes you or not.

If you get a letter and you are not a reservist than you are sh#t out of luck until your medical condition is rectified.  So contact the CFRC/D and they will tell you that you are SOL.  Clear as mud?


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## fireguy

Hello

First and foremost a little history.... I am 25 years of age in good health living in Comox British Columbia. Over the past year and a half I was employed by SNC Lavalin PAE as a firefighter. My position as a firefighter with the company had me posted to Camp Julien in Kabul Afghanistan working for the Canadian Forces as a civilian contractor. Before beginning my employment I had to do a hearing test and have it submitted to the company doctor who then passed along the results of the medical testing to the military. I was approved for employment in Afghanistan and worked there for 1.5 years upon which I came back to Canada and applied with the military. I have my medical and CFAT testing coming up on Tuesday the 8th of November. I am applying for armour, infantry and artillery NCM and I'm a little concerned 

I am concerned over the hearing test as I have approx 40 percent hearing loss in my left ear due to a cyst when I was 1-2 years old. Having this hearing loss from such a young age has allowed my body to adapt and I function exactly the same as anyone else. In reality nobody I have ever known could tell that I have a hearing deficiency unless I told them. I don't read lips and I can hear anything from any angle it comes at me within reason.

I know for sure that the military will ask for a referral from a specialist in the otolaryngology (spelling?) field. I know that I must have at least H3 for the fields I have chosen. The military orderly at CFB Comox told me I had H3 at the time I applied with SNC Lavalin. 

My question is this. Have you ever heard of this type of a problem before and if so what was the outcome. Also is it really something I should be fretting about? It just seems a little bit strange that the military would allow me to serve in Afghanistan as a civ at Camp Julien and various other sites and yet I could be denied to serve as a soldier. 

It is just so easy to make one tiny mistake on the hearing test and be denied.

Thanks again sorry for the lengthy explanation any answers or suggestions would be great.

Fireguy


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## kincanucks

H2 is the minimum standard for enrolment and H3 is the minimum for the occupation.

_It just seems a little bit strange that the military would allow me to serve in Afghanistan as a civ at Camp Julien and various other sites and yet I could be denied to serve as a soldier. _ 

Of course there are different standards for civilians and they would be lower. Good luck.


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## fireguy

thank you 

It is nice to get an honest answer. Well all I can do now is hope.

Fireguy


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## Spitfire

I am reapplying for the CF and did all the tests already last year. I have to redo them and I remember last time I did the hearing test it was a bit weird. They sit you in this little booth with the headsets and play a bunch of beeps for you. After a while your hearing so many beeps you start imagining them. Or they get so quiet to the point where you dont know if its a beep or just the ringing in your head. It happened to me last time where I ended up just spamming the button at the end becasue I coudlnt tell it it was faintly beeping or if my ears were just ringing or if I was imagining beeps.... heh. Should I say something this time around? I dont want to fail it and not be let in the CF over something like that.


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## kincanucks

Shake your head.


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## Jaxson

Chances are its not a ringing in your ears but actually the noise from the test, since it doesn't beep, it sounds like a long low ringing sound, because it is, if your not sure there is a sound though, i wouldn't recommend just randomly going buckwild on the button, it might look odd if your hitting the button when theres no sound. Goodluck to you.


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## old medic

Just take the test. If you think you hear a tone, press the button.

Every tester is different. The tone is not generated until the tester presses a button themselves,
Thus it is very easy to see when someone is just pressing the button.  Speaking for myself, I will back up
the test and re-start at an earlier point on the chart if I suspect that.

OM


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## AoD71

Spitfire said:
			
		

> ...They sit you in this little booth with the headsets and play a bunch of beeps for you. After a while your hearing so many beeps you start imagining them. Or they get so quiet to the point where you dont know if its a beep or just the ringing in your head. It happened to me last time where I ended up just spamming the button at the end becasue I coudlnt tell it it was faintly beeping or if my ears were just ringing or if I was imagining beeps...



LMAO It's SOOOO true!! I did the test barely 2 weeks ago and its the same thing for me. Except that I was sitting in a room with the door closed, so I was hearing everything on the other side. And then - wait for it... the PHONE starting ringing. Oh man, even though it was simply pushing a button, it was one of the hardest things I ever did in my life  :'(. Ha ha ha no I kid, but seriously, I wasn't told how well I did so I assume I made it.


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## inferno

Good to keep a record of your hearing tests. I know for my previous job they brought the hearing truck around every year and after failing the first test miserably, it was a huge relief to find out that it improved slowly over the next 3 years because I started to make an effort and wear hearing protection.


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## Jonny_Anonymous

Hi everyone,

I have my evaluations (interview, medical, fitness, etc) for joining the CF scheduled for Sept., and have been training for two months now. I'm very confident that I'll pass the fitness exam, I've been studying for the aptitude test, and have practiced the interview process and questions.... however, I'm concerned about the medical evaluation. 

I'm in great health, but at age five, I had bacterial meningitis that stripped me of all hearing in my left ear. Recently, I went to get my hearing tested to see if a hearing aid would help, but learned that: a) I have absolutely no hearing, and no way of correcting the loss in my left ear; b) I have _above normal_ hearing in my right ear. 

I spoke to my recruiter about this, and he forwarded me to the doctor that gives the medical exams. The only answer he gave me was to simply apply and see what Ottawa decides.

I'd love to be a part of the Canadian Forces, and have applied for INF. I crave the order and discilpline, and would be honored to serve my country. But I don't want to get my hopes up just end up with an offer to be a steward or cook.

*Have any of you been in my situation, or know of anyone who has? What do you think my chances of being accepted are?*


Any replies would be appreciated!


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## old medic

Apply and see what happens. You will never know until to you try.

You can read up on the hearing standard here:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/37674.0.html
http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/policies/med_standards/pdf/Engraph/cfp154_annexC_e.pdf


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## blacktriangle

I had my medical today and my hearing was not up to par in my left ear. Something is wrong with it, and my right ear must have compensated as I never knew until today.

I was told it would affect me, but go try anyways and best of luck.


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## Jonny_Anonymous

After reading the standards, I _think_ I would be an H3... which is the minimum for my selected trade (assuming I'm reading the charts right).

Thanks for your input


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## blacktriangle

All I can add is, I can still hear out of my bad ear, and was told it would still threaten my joining the CF.

You may wish to call the medical staff at CFRC, they have always been helpful to me.


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## armyrules

I had my medical yesterday and they medic said that my hearing was normal. You just gotta listen for the beeps in different tones and you'll be alright Good Luck!!


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## blacktriangle

As it easy as it should be, me =likely medically rejected.


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## senor.bumrap

Heynow. I’m a first time poster, long time applicant stuck in the enrollment process. So yeah, I’m stuck in the enrollment process due to some medical problems, specifically today I want to address my hearing probs. I’ve been searching throughout your forums and found some various links which somewhat addressed my questions, but not fully.

Okay, so before I start asking questions I’ll give you guys some background. I have hearing loss in my right ear at the 500Hz range and I can’t hear below 35db. Anything lower then 500Hz or greater I have acceptable hearing as stated by the army’s requirements, below 30db at any range other then 500Hz. My left ear has superb hearing, I can hear from 125hz to 12000hz well below 20db. My doctor called this asymmetric hearing loss. 

My doctor, not an audiologist but rather a professor of neurology at the University of Toronto and a otolaryngologist (ENT) for the university health network said I’m fine and that because of this little notch he doesn’t expect that my general hearing is degrading or would impede my performance in military service. He didn’t give me much face time because he was too _busy_ for me... This bumbaclut from academia didn’t mention the above information in his 70 dollar, 3 line note. All the note said was that I was fine and he wrote the note based on the information asked for, a diagnosis, that was previously sent to me by a letter from Ottawa. I blame him for the price of the letter but blame Ottawa for the ambiguity and boiler-plate-ness of these medical letters.

Anticipating that the 3 line letter wouldn’t be enough I’ve also included the audiologist report and diagnosis. Figuring giving more information then what the letter seemed to ask would help the medical officer paint a better picture. 

Hearing is very important, communication and the ability to communicate well in less-then ideal environments is vital where lives besides your own are at stake. I am a responsible individual and that if I hold any doubts in my ability to hear I would stop pursing this venture. 

I can communicate and according to the audiologist testing of speech recognition I scored 96%, I confused the words mushroom and washroom,  at 45db with a minimal recognition threshold at 10 db. The audiologist said that my recognition was excellent and that was stated in the diagnosis made by her which was also sent to Ottawa. Her diagnosis was more in-depth then the ENT’s note but the diagnosis wasn’t addressed to the military but rather to my family doctor. 

From my understanding the army would classify my hearing probs as H3 which is acceptable for my trade, infantry. Today I just got a letter from Ottawa, it was addressed July 19,  that said medical limitations have been assigned and that I do not meet the common enrolment medical standard required by both the regular and Reserve forces. It also said that I ought to contact my CFRC for the final decision concerning your application. So I called the CFRC and they weren’t much help. They said they didn’t know...

So for my question. Is my hearing that bad that I can’t enroll as an infantry NCM and is there anything that I can do? Constantly I’ve been told my hearing is fine by 2 audiologists, and my specialist.


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## beach_bum

If you have submitted all of your papers and letters you have from the Drs and Specialists, and you were still told no, I would have to say that you have your answer.  I realize that is not the answer you want to hear, but, not everyone makes it into the military.


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## kincanucks

Common enrolment medical standards (CEMS) must be met in order to be enrolled in the CF.  It is does not matter if you meet the occupation medical standards. You clearly do not meet the CEMS and therefore are not employable by the CF.  Unless your hearing improves you are SOL and should seek employment elsewhere.


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## Fishbone Jones

Once more kin, thank you for the 'from the horse's mouth' point(s)of clarity.

'Nuff said. If you need more clarity, go to the Recruiting Centre in person.


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## harcan25

i'm on the same boat.  this is the only part of the test that i'm worried about.  i used to listen to blaring music on headphones and had frequented clubs almost every week up until just recently.

can somebody put it in layman's terms... how bad an h3 is.  i've seen the stats but can't really picture how bad is BAD hearing.  500Hz... 50db... all greek to me.  let's say i can hear fine with anyone talking to me face to face and can understand whispers... thinking of it now, i can hear people fine talking (yelling) in clubs.  do you have to be almost deaf to be classified an h3 or h4?  i'm just a bit worried and my medical isn't until the 22nd.  any help would be appreciated.


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## Fishbone Jones

Your hearing will have to meet the standard for CF recruitment, NOT what the standard is for your chosen trade. You may be an H3, and that may be the minimum required for your trade, but if your hearing does not meet the standard for the Recruit medical, your SOL. Go talk to the Recruiting Centre................and do a SEARCH next time. We covered this a few weeks ago.


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## gogogo

The CF minimum hearing standard is a grade of H2. H2 would be a hearing level of 30db or better (20,10,5 etc.) in both ears in the frequencies of 125 to 8000 Hz, if I don't remember wrong from this link;  (it doesn't work for me at the moment)   http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/policies/med_standards/pdf/Engraph/cfp154_annexC_e.pdf  (link posted by Old medic inhttp://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/37674/post-311436.html#msg311436. A few months ago I had to get my hearing test for the RCMP and in the results I noticed that I was 30 or better db's in both ears in all frequencies except my left ear at 3k  hits 40 db. For the RCMP I was OK, but what I get is that I am H3. Would I still be employable for the CF ? The H3 standards are waaaaaaaaay lower than H2.  (If don't remember wrong again) its like at least 50db hearing in the best ear for all the frequencies. FOR SOMEBODY LIKE OLD MEDIC WHO HAS EXPERIENCE WITH THESE THINGS PLEASE: AM I L H3 WITH THIS 40DB @ 3K ?. Thanks in advance for any input.


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## old medic

Auditory Acuity

A hearing test to check auditory acuity is a part of each medical exam.  Information on the full medical exam
can be found at: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/37674.0.html

The test is conducted in a quiet room, or a hearing booth using an audiometer.
Hearing aids are not to be worn during the testing. 

Both ears will be tested with seven different frequencies (Hertz) or pure tones, for a total of 14 tones.
These will be at 250, 500, 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, and 6000 Hertz. Some tones may be tested more 
than once.

The standard is to start each at 30 db and work down or up (decrease or increase the volume) until the hearing 
threashold is reached, then drop under or over one db level and return past the threashold to confirm. 

The hearing threshhold is the point at which you hear that sound.
Once you hear the sound, you indicate it by pressing the button. The volume (Db) level is then recorded
on the chart. 

An example of the test chart can be seen at:
http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/policies/med_standards/pdf/Engraph/cfp154_annexHappen1pg3_e.pdf

The results of the hearing test will determine which hearing category is assigned. 
The hearing category is expressed as being H1, H2, H3 or H4.

H1 is normal or above hearing, while H4 indicates moderately severe hearing loss or below.
The description of each category is:



> H1
> - the member has the necessary auditory acuity to hear sounds of less than or equal to 30 dB in each ear in the 500 to 8000 Hz
> frequency range.
> 
> H2
> - The member has the necessary auditory acuity to hear sounds of less than or equal to 30 dB in each ear in the 500 to 3000 Hz
> frequency range.
> 
> H3
> - The member has the necessary auditory acuity to hear sounds of less than or equal to 50 dB in either ear in the 500 to 3000 Hz
> frequency range.
> 
> H4
> - The member has the necessary auditory acuity to only hear sounds greater than 50 dB in either ear in the 500 to 3000 Hz
> frequency range.


Source:  http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/policies/med_standards/pdf/Engraph/cfp154_annexC_e.pdf
(Highlights added to illustrate differences in categories).

Notes:  
You must fall into category H1 or H2 to be enrolled. 
H1 Is Normal human hearing or anything above average.
H2 fits the category mild hearing loss.
H3 fits the category of Moderate hearing loss. If any ear scores between 31 and 50 db on the 500, 1000, 
     2000 or 3000 Hz tone, you are an H3. 
H4 fits the category of Moderately severe hearing loss, or below (Severe and Profound). If any ear scores 
     over 51 db on the 500, 1000, 2000 or 3000 Hz tone, you are an H4. 

*Levels of hearing loss *

Hearing impairment is measured by the degree of loudness (decibels), a sound reaches before you detect it.  
The average human can hear sounds between 20 Hz and 16,000 Hz. (16 KHz).
Above average human hearing is between 16 Hz and 20,000 Hz (20 KHz). 

    Mild: you detect the sound between 25 and 40 dB
    Moderate: you detect the sound between 41 and 55 dB
    Moderately severe: you detect the sound between 56 and 70 dB
    Severe: you detect the sound between 71 and 90 dB
    Profound: you need 90 dB or greater to detect the sound.


*Home Testing*

There are various shareware programs available on line for your home computer that will allow you to check or test 
your own hearing. Be warned, they are not as reliable as a true audiometer test.

*Definitions and Terms*


Term                              Definition or explaination                                AnacusisDeafness.  Complete inability to hear. AudiogramA graph that plots hearing loss.Audiometer A tone generating device used to plot an audiogram. Deafness The complete inability to hear (Anacusis). Decibels A unit of scale that expresses the loudness (intensity) of sound. it is 1/10th of a bel.Db abbreviation for Decibels Diplacusis Hearing defect where a single tone is heard as two pitches by the two ears. Frequency measured in hertz (Hz), Historically (before 1960) measured in cycles per second (cps or c/s) Hearing Impaired See impaired hearing below. Hearing threshhold The level at which sound becomes audible. HertzThe unit of measure for frequency. One Hertz is one cycle per second (cps). Hyperacusis Sensativity to loud sounds. Hzabbreviation for HertzImpaired hearingUsually hearing is impaired when the threshhold is shifted 25 dB or more, over the 500, 
1000 and 2000 Hz frequency. It is then further classified as either mild, moderate, 
moderately severe, severe or profound hearing loss. Noise An unwanted sound. PresbycusisHearing loss attributed to advancing age.Pure Tone A tone (sound) with a single, unchanging frequency. Might be referred to as a sinus tone. Sound (wave) Energy that travels through a medium (air, water) in a wave. It's properties are 
frequency, wavelength, period, amplitude, and speed. Tinnitus Ringing or other noise in one or both ears. 

*Further Reading:* 

Understanding Your Hearing Test			http://www.earinfo.com/howread1.html
Audiograms					         http://www.sfu.ca/sonic-studio/handbook/Audiogram.html


With input and thanks too: kj_gully, ParaMedTech, St. Micheal's Medical Team, and xo31@711ret


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## wannabe

I've got a stumper for you.

I've read and understand the hearing requirements and understand the difference between H1 through H4. I'm also an ex-military member and am considering re-enrollment. When I left I was an H1 with 25db loss at 3000Hz. When I originally enrolled I was H1 with 0 db at 3000HZ. All other pitch frequencies were and are well under the 30 db mark from 250hz through 8000 HZ.

Through my employment i get my hearing tested every 6 months. We discovered, quite by accident, that I have a 'dead spot' in the 3000 hz range. Meaning. I can't hear 30 db or 25 db but can hear 35, 20, 15, 10 db in that frequency. This was discovered between two 6 month checks. One audiometric technician went 35db down and baselined me at 35 db at 3000 hz. Six months later, a different technician did 0 db up on all frequencies and baselined me at 10 db at 3000 Hz. This was a huge difference in the baseline, which created a need to retest in a more extensive fashion as it was more than 10 db.

In a 0-35 db test, I can hear the lower db tones, and get baselined at 10 db as they hit 0, i don't respond, hit 5, no response, hit 10, i respond, hit 5, don't respond, hit 10, i respond. In a top down test, I'll baseline at 35 as the tech will hit 30, i won't respond, hit 35, I do, hit 30 again, i don't hit 35, i do and tada...i get baselined at 30.

Can a member with experience in the med field or someone with similar experience give me some insight on what my position will be in a recruiting medical?


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## tech2002

I have applied to CF, I have passed all test, etc, only was standing was my medical, there were two things, one of them was my back bend, but it was accepted, second, was my hearing, I lost hearing when I was 2 years old on my right side I am totally deaf, no fix, the left is 100% , I have been going for hearing tests every 3 to 5 years to check if anything bad goes with good ear, and nothing changed for the past 27 years, I have provided all my tests, and unfortunately they said that the audiogram shows that my hearing ability doesn't meet the common enrollment medical standard required by CF, when I phoned them to get the final decision they told me that I was in class 2 of hearing standard they told me that I can appeal if I wish but I don;t know if I have chance at all, does anybody knows how these classes are divided and specifications in each class
Thanks in advance


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## navymich

If you read through the  Enrollment Medical Standards, there is information on each part of the medical process including hearing.  There is also other links provided that may help you with some of your questions.


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## tech2002

Thanks for the info, it is very useful information, need to call again tomorrow, get some more info on the decision I received today..


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## the 48th regulator

locked

dileas

tess
*
army.ca staff*


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## NewfieNick

This is a question for the medical people. I have done the reading on here but my question is different due to my results.

I had my medical, CFAT, and interview last week. I was accepted into the CF as an Armored Soldier. I passed everything with confidence. Except my hearing exam....

I was recorded as a H3 with a 45db loss in my right ear. The requirement is 30db or less for H2. I have since then seen my family doctor and he syringed my ears, checked my ears and they were fine. He got me an appointment with an Audiologist in my hospital. today. I passed my left ear, on both ears there were no damage to my inner ear or ear drum, but I did not meet 30db on my right ear. 

There was a huge difference since getting my ears cleaned. I passed everything with my right ear except the 4000hz. As the requirement is 30db, I got 35. It is a big improvement from 45db to 35db, and the Audiologist recommended that my hearing was near perfect. I can hear good, whispers good, my concern is that I wont get in. I have trained hard and have my heart set on it. What are the chances of the CF "bending" the rule a little for a slight decrease on one of the 8 frequencies tested. I never failed it by much, just a little over the requirement for a H2. Has this ever been done before?


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## Sig_Des

Nick, for your identities and personal security, I would suggest you remove the copies of you medical files, and if you put them up, at least remove or black out your personal info, ie: full name, dob, etc.

You really don't want that stuff floating around on the internet.


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## NewfieNick

Done. I though I had all my personal stuff erased. All personal info except name erased now 
Now back to my question...


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## Armymedic

See for yourself,

right from Annex C of CFP 154:



> TABLE OF HEARING STANDARDS
> H1-the member has the necessary auditory acuity to hear sounds of less than or equal to 30 dB in each ear in the 500 to 8000 Hz frequency range.
> H2 -the member has the necessary auditory acuity to hear sounds of less than or equal to 30 dB in each ear in the 500 to 3000 Hz frequency range.
> H3 -the member has the necessary auditory acuity to hear sounds of less than or equal to 50 dB in either ear in the 500 to 3000 Hz frequency range.
> H4 -the member has the necessary auditory acuity to only hear sounds greater than 50 dB in either ear in the 500 to 3000 Hz frequency range.
> NOTE 1 -Following a surgical procedure to improve hearing, an audiometric examination will be done to determine any residual hearing loss. The audiometric examination should be done at a time



And as a crewman, min hearing standard is H3:


> MOC OCCUPATION V CV H G O A     MOSID
> 011   Crewman      3  3   3 2 2 5      00005



...so whats the problem?


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## tech2002

hey Nick,  you are on the same boat as I am , I have been scored as H3, which I don't cut into army, but I am accepted into trade which accept H3 , but to get into trade I need to be accepted to Army.. , I don't make rules,, the only way to get it if you have been in CF before and then left , then they will accept you into trade, and army with H3 score.. this sounds like double standard system, it would of be nice if CF change or adjust medical policy for hearing and did like Vision has score from V1 to V5 (where V1 to v4 gets you enrolled) , will it ever happen? we will never know

the only way to get this ruled bend possibly, you have to start with Human Rights Commission...


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## Roy Harding

tech2002 said:
			
		

> hey Nick,  you are on the same boat as I am , I have been scored as H3, which I don't cut into army, but I am accepted into trade which accept H3 , but to get into trade I need to be accepted to Army.. , I don't make rules,, the only way to get it if you have been in CF before and then left , then they will accept you into trade, and army with H3 score.. this sounds like double standard system, it would of be nice if CF change or adjust medical policy for hearing and did like Vision has score from V1 to V5 (where V1 to v4 gets you enrolled) , will it ever happen? we will never know
> 
> the only way to get this ruled bend possibly, you have to start with Human Rights Commission...



tech2002, I'm not sure I understand sure I DON'T understand what you're on about - and I'm pretty sure you have only the most tenuous grasp yourself.

ALL NCM's in the CF are assigned a trade, also identified as an MOSID, (sometimes still referred to as an MOC).

As pointed out by SMMT above, NewfieNick_ apparently_ meets the hearing standards, so the H3 shouldn't be an obstacle to him joining the Army, and being assigned to his preferred trade of Crewman.

I'm not getting what you're trying to communicate here.


Roy


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## old medic

It's very hard to say without seeing your original results and the Audiologists test.
You don't mention the hz level you scored the 45 db on either. 
Based on what you have provided, You should ask to be retested.



			
				NewfieNick said:
			
		

> I passed everything with my right ear except the 4000hz. As the requirement is 30db, I got 35.



The Key fact here is you said 35db at 4000hz.

so H1 is  "acuity to hear sounds of less than or equal to 30 dB in each ear in the 500 to 8000 Hz frequency range"
which you don't meet. 

h2 is " auditory acuity to hear sounds of less than or equal to 30 dB in each ear in the 500 to 3000 Hz
which, by what you have typed, it sounds like you do meet. 4000 Hz is above the 500 to 3000 Hz range, but within the 
500 to 8000 range needed for H1. 

Now that you have taken corrective action, you should be asking to be tested again and possibly moved from
H3 to H2. 

H1 and H2 are the Common Enrollment Standard. H3 can not be enrolled.


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## Roy Harding

old medic said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> H1 and H2 are the Common Enrollment Standard. H3 can not be enrolled.



Thank you, old medic.  I now understand (I think) what tech2002 was attempting to say, (he meets MOC specs, but not Common Enrolment Standard) - and I see where NewfieNick's problem lies.


Roy


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## gogogo

To all who may be in Nicks situation I suggest you go and test your hearing privately at an audiologist. I was also borderline h3 35db at one frequency. I was super stressed in that little booth, I could hear my heart beat (and every other sound from outside) and I kept missing that frequency. I also had just got over a flu about a week before. I personally think the hearing test is  the worst thing in enrollment, but at times it could be a question of concentration and "learning" to hear the lightest beeps. At least for people who are borderline. In the end with my "lazy" ear I was tested and retested and  proved more times to be H1. But it was a very stressing period, because as I understand there are  "no exceptions made" on the >30 db standard . So whoever is in this situation; hang tough, get through possible congestion (flu/cold/sinus/ etc), get ears checked out by physician, practice at home on your computer with those at home audio tests,  go to at least 2 audiologists (it'll cost you but you're dream is at stake). 
If all this doesn't work you can at least put you're heart at rest knowing you've done everything possible.
good luck to all...


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## Mustadio

gogogo I know what you mean. I haven't had an audio-test done in years, and I had no memory of it. Like you said I could hear my heart beat, I was distracted by it, and I know exactly what you mean by 'learning' to hear the beeps. I think it has to do with being in a world where we are surrounded by sounds, all the time. Even if you're just walking down the street, most people are listening to their I-pods. For me I was in the soundproof booth and I thought I heard the 'beep' but I wasn't concentrating enough, and i didn't 'learn' to recognize it. So I just discarded it, then when it got louder I thought "Oh damn! that's the beep, I missed like 3 or 4 of them that I should of pushed the button for".
My right ear I believe is fine, but my left ear has some problems, especially with higher pitches. I got my ears syringed and when my doctor is back from vacation later this week I'm going to get an appointment with an audiologist and I'm just hoping for the best. I agree though, I dislike the audio test... It caught me off guard and sometimes it really is a matter of concentration and learning to hear the faint sounds. 

For the enrollment though, those requirements have to be met by both ears right? They don't 'take the best one' or average it, eh? My hearing never has caused me any problems, it's just higher pitched sounds.


----------



## ixium

Do they test both ears seperatly? I did the test around a month ago and don't remember if the sound from their headphones was directional or not.

I just pushed the button when I heard anything I thought was something that wasn't supposed to be there and ended up with an H1. And doesn't 'training' for the audio test(lol...) kind of defeat the purpose of it? 
I mean, I listen to loud music on headphones and always around loud noises from work etc and still did fine.

Anything past cleaning the wax out of the ear is reaching for straws when it comes to the audio test.

But, the sounds I heard in the test don't seem to be like real world situational sounds(please correct me if I am wrong), even the 'loudest' beep was pretty quiet. Unless maybe you're trying to catch mice running across a hardwood floor, I don't see the point in how low the H1 category goes.


----------



## JBoyd

Well I plan to do what i can to make sure they are empty of crap  gonna get a flush done


----------



## aesop081

ixium said:
			
		

> But, the sounds I heard in the test don't seem to be like real world situational sounds(please correct me if I am wrong),



They're not supposed to be. They are sound pulses at specific frequecies to test your ability to hear sounds emited at that frequency.  They dont have to be real sounds.....its all about the frequency.  If you cant hear the "beep" you wont be able to hear a "real" sound at the same frequency.


----------



## ixium

Right, but is the a difference if its at 35db or 30db?

If the real sound is at the same frequency, chances are its not going to be as low of db as those tests were done at....



...Ok, after lookup the decibel of a whisper, it seems like 30db isn't as low as I thought...The frequency just makes it seem low I guess...


----------



## aesop081

ixium said:
			
		

> Right, but is the a difference if its at 35db or 30db?
> 
> If the real sound is at the same frequency, chances are its not going to be as low of db as those tests were done at....
> 
> 
> 
> ...Ok, after lookup the decibel of a whisper, it seems like 30db isn't as low as I thought...The frequency just makes it seem low I guess...



Amazing what happens when you educate yourself rather that spouting off and second guessing things you know nothing about !!!!


----------



## ixium

That's why I had the little clause at the end of the original statement and used words like "don't seem" instead of "aren't"


----------



## bondarenkoa

So i did my audiogram for my medical today and the first time i had 0/10 in the 500 then 10/5 in the 1000 then 10/5 in the 2000 and the problem was in the 3000 where i had 60/60 in both ears......i was wondering if anyone had the same problem and wht can be done to resolve this....
i heard there are 4 levels of the test H1 H2 H3 H4.....

H1
- the member has the necessary auditory acuity to hear sounds of less than or equal to 30 dB in each ear in the 500 to 8000 Hz
  frequency range.

H2
- The member has the necessary auditory acuity to hear sounds of less than or equal to 30 dB in each ear in the 500 to 3000 Hz
   frequency range.

H3
- The member has the necessary auditory acuity to hear sounds of less than or equal to 50 dB in either ear in the 500 to 3000 Hz
   frequency range.

H4
- The member has the necessary auditory acuity to only hear sounds greater than 50 dB in either ear in the 500 to 3000 Hz
   frequency range. 


i really need this guys i hope there is an alternative, ohh and my position is Infantry.


----------



## tech2002

Did medical officer told you anything ? 
otherways best way to wait for news, in mean time perhaps if you concern with results, go to clinic and do another audiogram it costs 40 bucks , and try to be relaxed, if in case this audiogram results will be better you might have chance to resend this information once you get bad news if you fail to meet the min standard..


----------



## westie47

I did a search but yielded no results.

My question for you medics is this, what/how are the hearing catagories set up? I am infantry and was given an H3 because I had experienced hearing loss.  I just completed an Audiogram and am worried my hearing in the one ear will push me out of the infantry... what's the basic level of hearing for infantry/deployment? 

Is there a chart/number? I have my numbers from my hearing test. Any help is appreciated, I'd like to know a bit more before I go see the doctor.


----------



## PMedMoe

I searched "hearing" and here's what I found:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/55464.0.html

Don't forget when doing a search, you should be in the board in which you want to search.  Otherwise, you'll search the entire forum.


----------



## westie47

Perfect, thanks. My Google-fu is very weak, unless it involves porn!!!!!! That explained pretty much everything except this:

Since I am already a serving member and am infantry, at what level do I become medically unfit for infantry/deployment? H3, H4, below H4?????


----------



## PMedMoe

I believe it is _below_ H3 (so H4) but I could be wrong.  I'm not a Med Tech anymore.


----------



## Cansky

westie47 said:
			
		

> I did a search but yielded no results.
> 
> My question for you medics is this, what/how are the hearing catagories set up? I am infantry and was given an H3 because I had experienced hearing loss.  I just completed an Audiogram and am worried my hearing in the one ear will push me out of the infantry... what's the basic level of hearing for infantry/deployment?
> 
> Is there a chart/number? I have my numbers from my hearing test. Any help is appreciated, I'd like to know a bit more before I go see the doctor.



Westie,
Keep in mind that the audiogram is just a tool that we use.  If your H3 is a significant drop from your previous hearing categories you should be refered to a hearing specialist.  You should also have more formal hearing exam.  A specialist will have access to better equipment than the audiogram machine that the CF uses.  I was an H3 upon return from Kandahar.  (living 500 m from the runway for 6 months will do that) but they refered me to a specialist and better equipment and my hearing was actually H1/H2. 
This link will take you to the quidelines. http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/policies/med_standards/pdf/engraph/cfp154_annexEappen1-2_e.pdf  An infanteer can be an H3 but no worse. 
Kirsten


----------



## westie47

Thanks for the info, I was H3 last year but I went for an actual Audiogram and it looks like I am pushing into the H4 cat.  I am going to get one or two more tests doen at different places to ensure a consistent result. 

The MO told me last year that they are only concerened with the low ranges not the high ranges, all of my loss is in the high range so I wasn't too concerned.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

It will probably depend on your rank also. I know lots of WOs & higher with hearing aids, in the combat arms.


----------



## westie47

So I am 55 dB in the 4000 Hz range. The above link says I am H4 if I am 50 dB or higher in the 3000 Hz  range. I wonder what the difference is.


----------



## medicineman

What Kirsten said.

MM


----------



## tech2002

recceguy said:
			
		

> It will probably depend on your rank also. I know lots of WOs & higher with hearing aids, in the combat arms.



is hearing aid allowed in CF and serving in combat ?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

tech2002 said:
			
		

> is hearing aid allowed in CF and serving in combat ?



I'm not quite sure how to make it any clearer than what I said already. Of course, I'm sure it would depend on the type and extent of loss. 

OK, just for s&g, I'll say it again. Lots of people in the *combat * arms wear hearing aids. In the field, I quite often remove mine. Normally, making for a very blissful outing


----------



## bradlupa

I am just wondering if anyone as told that they failed the hearing test.  The reason I ask is today at my medical, i was told i was unfit due to hearing loss and that i needed to be assessed by a hearing clinic to confirm there diagnosis.  Well i went to the hearing clinic and i was told that i DID NOT have any hearing loss rather i have better hearing then most people.  

Now i know that there are factors that affected my test during the medical, the room i was in was next to another room with lots of low noise.  Second the earphones did not fit proper and third there was a exhaust fan above me that was running.

Seems kind of odd that they would do the test in such a noisey enviroment, then tell me that my hearing makes me unfit, when really it is better then normal.  Makes me wonder what else is inaccurate


----------



## SoldierInTheMaking

Did you discuss that with your RC, if not then I would, then you could probably retake the test.


----------



## bradlupa

bradlupa said:
			
		

> I was told i was unfit due to hearing loss and that i needed to be assessed by a hearing clinic to confirm there diagnosis.



I called the SGT today and told him about the retest at a hearing clinic and he said that it is quite common to have good hearing but fail there test, and that as long as the audiogram is signed by a doctor then i'm fit (yay).

This seems a little odd that if it is common, then you think that they would find a better place to do it rather than just say that you are unfit and be tested at a hearing clinic, as it cost me an extra $100 for the test and $85 for the doctors signature, to state that i have no hearing loss.

Just seems that they could have taken better steps to ensure there test is accurate.

Never the less i am now fit


----------



## Eye In The Sky

bradlupa said:
			
		

> I called the SGT today and told him about the retest at a hearing clinic and he said that it is quite common to have good hearing but fail there test, and that as long as the audiogram is signed by a doctor then i'm fit (yay).
> 
> This seems a little odd that if it is common, then you think that they would find a better place to do it rather than just say that you are unfit and be tested at a hearing clinic, as it cost me an extra $100 for the test and $85 for the doctors signature, to state that i have no hearing loss.
> 
> Just seems that they could have taken better steps to ensure there test is accurate.
> 
> Never the less i am now fit



Well, pass your observations on in a nice way to the CFRC.  Providing feedback might help others that follow.

The System works, but like all systems, its not perfect.

As for your $185, I can't help but think of others that have sacrified in ways I can't fathom for Canada and the free world.  Take a look at the link below, and if you *really* still feel like your $185 is a sacrifice worth moaning about, PM me your address and I will send you a cheque to cover it.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/focus/fallen-disparus/index-eng.asp

RIP to all of our fallen.


----------



## Occam

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> As for your $185, I can't help but think of others that have sacrified in ways I can't fathom for Canada and the free world.  Take a look at the link below, and if you *really* still feel like your $185 is a sacrifice worth moaning about, PM me your address and I will send you a cheque to cover it.
> 
> http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/focus/fallen-disparus/index-eng.asp
> 
> RIP to all of our fallen.



Huh?  That started out as a helpful post...

What do our fallen have to do with the fact that he's out of pocket for an accurate hearing test that the CF recruiting system should have done correctly the first time 'round?

I guess nothing is ever done incorrectly or unjustly in the CF; therefore we can do away with that pesky grievance system.  Sound okay?

If his hearing was fine, and the first test they gave him was erroneous, then surely to gawd $185 is not going to break DND's budget.


----------



## TimBit

Occam said:
			
		

> Huh?  That started out as a helpful post...
> 
> What do our fallen have to do with the fact that he's out of pocket for an accurate hearing test that the CF recruiting system should have done correctly the first time 'round?
> 
> I guess nothing is ever done incorrectly or unjustly in the CF; therefore we can do away with that pesky grievance system.  Sound okay?
> 
> If his hearing was fine, and the first test they gave him was erroneous, then surely to gawd $185 is not going to break DND's budget.



I agree! Otherwise to keep that logic, why not pay for our moves? And hey, let ranks be a simple matter of authority, not pay. MWO, same pay as a private: it is a matter of honour, pride and duty. See where that line of arguing leads to?

I'm not sure you'll be able to claim your 185, bradlupa, but I certainly commend you on paying that out of pocket to prove you could serve. Now if that is not desire to serve, what is? And yes, not to blame the CFRC, but we should ensure that any test we run to clear candidates is well run and reflect that candidate's abilities, traits, etc... Mistakes happen, yes, but we should strive to fix them.


----------



## bradlupa

I'm not saying that i want my money back or that fallen soldier don't deserve respect.  What i am saying is how many people have had to redo hearing tests because of improper testing room selection.

I'm joining the military to serve my country and if needed give my life for the people of Canada.  

But with out a family physcian i had to pay for the consult at a walk in clinic.


----------



## Monsoon

bradlupa said:
			
		

> But with out a family physcian i had to pay for the consult at a walk in clinic.


Sounds like a reimbursable expense. If the CFRC won't let you submit a claim with the receipts, keep them until you're enrolled and submit them at your first unit.


----------



## BradCon

It's a little different but I had to pay 80$ to get my eyes professionally ok'd.
I think it is more common than we know, a previous poster mentioned that it's not  a perfect system,  I'd ride with that.


----------



## Blackadder1916

bradlupa said:
			
		

> . . .
> *Now i know that there are factors that affected my test during the medical, the room i was in was next to another room with lots of low noise.  Second the earphones did not fit proper and third there was a exhaust fan above me that was running.*
> 
> Seems kind of odd that they would do the test in such a noisey enviroment, then tell me that my hearing makes me unfit, when really it is better then normal.  Makes me wonder what else is inaccurate



Every time that I read one of these tales of audiograms being given under less than ideal conditions, I am reminded of the first audiogram I had in the CF, a few decades ago.  For some reason back then, one was not done as part of the recruiting medical, so we had it done at Cornwallis.  As part of the in-routine at the BHosp (shots, glasses, etc) an audiogram was done.  When I went into the room for the test, it was probably (as I would later learn on my Med A course) a textbook case of how not to perform an audiogram; there was definitely no attempt at soundproofing, there was a large fan running trying to keep the room cool on a hot summer day and outside under the open window that I sat next to was a Sea Cadet band practicing.  Despite all that, I still managed an 'H1' without any difficulty.



> *i was told . . . i needed to be assessed by a hearing clinic to confirm there diagnosis.*  Well i went to the hearing clinic and i was told that i DID NOT have any hearing loss rather i have better hearing then most people.



The audiogram done during a recruiting medical (like all parts of it) is a "screening" procedure, not a "diagnostic" tool.  Most people have no difficulty with it, despite sometimes (often?) less than ideal testing conditions.  However from experience in doing recruit audiograms under very good conditions (special booth/audiometer) sometimes individuals, even those with no perceptible hearing loss, will "fail" the test because they think about it too much (or not enough) and start hearing nonexistent sounds or try to second guess the machine (maybe attempting to get a better score).  As well, from similar experience under less than ideal conditions the number of "false fails" were not so many as to warrant the considerable extra expense to ensure "perfect" conditions all the time, at all the testing locations.

In your case you "failed".  But wait, you were also informed to have this confirmed at a "hearing clinic" where there would be a hearing specialist (audiologist), more sensitive equipment and better conditions.  While you may be less than happy with the extra steps you need to take to join, I don't see anything really outside the norm.  The same would apply if there were negative findings from another part of the enrolment medical. There are many posts on this means from individuals whose urinalysis at the medical detected something, but was within acceptable limits when done later for a civilian physician; much more common than your 'improperly conducted' hearing test.



> But with out a family physcian i had to pay for the consult at a walk in clinic.



And by the way, even if you had a family physician you still (most likely) would have been required to pay as the service the physician provided was for employment purposes and thus not covered by provincial health insurance.  When you hear of instances where a physician does not charge directly for such services, they are either doing it for free (very, very rare) or they are fraudulently billing the insuring province (also rare).


----------



## RubberTree

Correct me if I'm wrong...
doesn't PMed come in annually to check the audiogram machine to ensure its accuracy? All the machines that I have seen look about 20 years old, I'm sure they require service/zeroing at regular intervals.


----------



## PMedMoe

RubberTree said:
			
		

> Correct me if I'm wrong...
> doesn't PMed come in annually to check the audiogram machine to ensure its accuracy? All the machines that I have seen look about 20 years old, I'm sure they require service/zeroing at regular intervals.



That would be *BMET* (Biomedical Electronics Tech) not *PMed* (Preventive Medicine Tech).  I don't know how often the audiogram machines get calibrated but there must be a schedule.


----------



## ArmyGuy99

Once a year the Tech's come around and calibrate/check/verify all of our equipment which has been issued to the Unit.  At our centre we get a new Audiometer every year.


----------



## festealth

My apologies for resurrecting an old thread, but I feel that it will be pointless to start a new one.

Thanks to all the above posts, the hearing aspect of the medical exam has got me stressed out for the last little while.
I, unfortunately, do not have perfect hearing, but the only sounds I'm unable to hear are those very high frequency ones.  Much like a dog whistle... but not that high.
For regular talking, schools, and everyday actitivies, I can hear everything no problem (of course, my hearing has always been bad, so I dunno what "perfect" hearing actually is)..... I'm just wondering, there is any lee-way or wiggle room in case I don't meet the standards?  Along the lines of, "I'm willing to give 110% to make up any disadvantage I might have, sir!"

Btw, I am trying to join an artillery unit.... so you can say I already have a head start for those "artillery ears" 8)


----------



## aesop081

festealth said:
			
		

> Along the lines of, "I'm willing to give 110% to make up any disadvantage I might have, sir!"



We would end up getting that line from every single applicant with a problem. We then might as well not have any standards at all. You either meet the standards or you dont, simple as that.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

If you have hearing aids you will be found medically unfit, but IIRC if you are already in then, accomodations will be made if you need hearing aids as a result of hearing loss due to your service.


----------



## Occam

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> If you have hearing aids you will be found medically unfit, but IIRC if you are already in then, accomodations will be made if you need hearing aids as a result of hearing loss due to your service.



The highlighted part is not necessarily true.  If festealth is wearing it for high frequencies as he stated, it may be that he'd be able to pass the enrolment exam.  Only a hearing test will reveal that for sure.


----------



## armyvern

Occam said:
			
		

> The highlighted part is not necessarily true.  If festealth is wearing it for high frequencies as he stated, it may be that he'd be able to pass the enrolment exam.  Only a hearing test will reveal that for sure.



Perhaps, but only _if_ he can pass the enrollment hearing exam _without_ the hearing aid(s).


----------



## Occam

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Perhaps, but only _if_ he can pass the enrollment hearing exam _without_ the hearing aid(s).



Yup, that's what I was getting at.  The audio range of the hearing aid may be for frequencies above the range of concern to the entrance requirements, meaning he could pass without the assistance of the hearing aid.


----------



## festealth

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> We would end up getting that line from every single applicant with a problem. We then might as well not have any standards at all. You either meet the standards or you dont, simple as that.



I know what standards are for, but there is a difference between, "uhhh... yeah, I technically have a hearing disability, but you wouldn't have known about it unless I tell you or you do some test on me" and "huh?  what?  bearing icicle yams?  can you repeat it?  oh yeah.... hearing medical exams...... me hear good!"
While I understand that by not following the standards exactly it may lead to a slippery slope until eventually you have some blind, deaf, amputee, with an IQ of 50 plus being allergic to both the sun and to metal and trying to apply for some infantry position, none of us want that.

As for hearing aids, I haven't worn them for over 15 years.  I noticed, as a child, that people were behaving differently around me when I had it on compared to when I didn't wear it.  As a matter of fact, most people I know don't even know that I wore a hearing aid as a child, except for those who knew me from way back when.  I don't ask people to repeat and as a matter of fact, I'm probably a better listener because I specific spend extra effort to make sure I don't miss anything.

I'm sorry if I'm ranting (whining), even though in the end I might still get accepted.... but as of right now, this is frustrating me to no ends.  It's like not being able to get onto the roller coaster because you have to 5 feet tall and you happen to be 4'11.75


----------



## PMedMoe

Until you actually do a hearing test, you won't know.  So there's probably not much point in griping about it either way.

As far as wanting to ride a roller coaster when you are 4'11.75" when the height requirement is 5'; do you also want to be the one using safety equipment rated for 225 lbs when you weigh 230 lbs?  As stated, the standards are there for a reason.


----------



## medicineman

Occam said:
			
		

> Yup, that's what I was getting at.  The audio range of the hearing aid may be for frequencies above the range of concern to the entrance requirements, meaning he could pass without the assistance of the hearing aid.



I have my doubts - the hearing testing has broadened the audible range a bit in the last few years at the high end...either way, he needs to be screened at the recruiting centre and if there is a problem, formally tested by an audiologist to confirm what his hearing category is.  If it's below the Common Enrolment Medical Standard, he doesn't get in.

MM


----------



## George Wallace

medicineman said:
			
		

> I have my doubts - the hearing testing has broadened the audible range a bit in the last few years at the high end...either way, he needs to be screened at the recruiting centre and if there is a problem, formally tested by an audiologist to confirm what his hearing category is.  If it's below the Common Enrolment Medical Standard, he doesn't get in.
> 
> MM



What I found, in my quest a pension for hearing loss as per CF testing, is that CF Testing scales are not the same as those used by Veteran's Affairs.  So no claim successfully filed.


----------



## Occam

medicineman said:
			
		

> I have my doubts - the hearing testing has broadened the audible range a bit in the last few years at the high end...either way, he needs to be screened at the recruiting centre and if there is a problem, formally tested by an audiologist to confirm what his hearing category is.  If it's below the Common Enrolment Medical Standard, he doesn't get in.
> 
> MM



Unless something has changed recently, you only need frequencies above 3000 Hz to obtain a H1 category.  You can be deaf as a post above 3000 Hz, and still get an H2 as long as your hearing from 500-3000 Hz is within the limits.  Once you start getting hearing loss in that range, then you start heading down in categories.


----------



## mariomike

George Wallace said:
			
		

> What I found, in my quest a pension for hearing loss as per CF testing, is that CF Testing scales are not the same as those used by Veteran's Affairs.  So no claim successfully filed.



A Crewman does not receive a pension for hearing loss?


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Occam said:
			
		

> Unless something has changed recently, you only need frequencies above 3000 Hz to obtain a H1 category.  You can be deaf as a post above 3000 Hz, and still get an H2 as long as your hearing from 500-3000 Hz is within the limits.  Once you start getting hearing loss in that range, then you start heading down in categories.



And you are in the medical field....


----------



## George Wallace

mariomike said:
			
		

> A Crewman does not receive a pension for hearing loss?



After ....... say ten years and three or four reapplications and/or protests to Veterans Affairs; then maybe.  Veterans Affairs usual tactic is to reject your initial "Claim" and make you fight for it, hoping that you give up.  A vast majority do, frustrated with a system where medical documentation counts for nothing at their Pension Boards.


----------



## mariomike

I used to get mad when I heard about this sort of thing. Now that I am getting older it saddens me. It's a lack of respect, that frankly I find embarrassing as a Canadian.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

George Wallace said:
			
		

> After ....... say ten years and three or four reapplications and/or protests to Veterans Affairs; then maybe.  Veterans Affairs usual tactic is to reject your initial "Claim" and make you fight for it, hoping that you give up.  A vast majority do, frustrated with a system where medical documentation counts for nothing at their Pension Boards.



I got mine on the first go around George. Was able to document everything going back over thirty years and had a Doctor that knew how to write the letter to DVA properly.


----------



## Occam

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> And you are in the medical field....



No.

I'm someone who started out in this outfit as an H1, gradually declined due to noise exposure to an H2, and am now an H3 with a hearing aid and pensioned by VAC because of it.  I'm intimately familiar with the hearing standards, _unless they've changed very recently_.

Good enough for you?


----------



## PMedMoe

IMHO, there's a _huge_ difference between getting hearing aids after you've already been enrolled (and lost hearing due to job exposure) and having hearing aids _before_ you enroll.  However, if this person can pass the hearing test without the hearing aids, this whole argument is moot.


----------



## Occam

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> IMHO, there's a _huge_ difference between getting hearing aids after you've already been enrolled (and lost hearing due to job exposure) and having hearing aids _before_ you enroll.  However, if this person can pass the hearing test without the hearing aids, this whole argument is moot.



Which is what I said way back at reply #16   ;D

I only brought up my own hearing aid and personal experience with the testing procedures for hearing because someone questioned my ability to offer an opinion on the subject.


----------



## medicineman

Occam said:
			
		

> Unless something has changed recently, you only need frequencies above 3000 Hz to obtain a H1 category.  You can be deaf as a post above 3000 Hz, and still get an H2 as long as your hearing from 500-3000 Hz is within the limits.  Once you start getting hearing loss in that range, then you start heading down in categories.


TABLE OF HEARING STANDARDS
H1- the member has the necessary auditory acuity to hear sounds of less than or equal to 30 dB in each ear in the 500 to 8000 Hz frequency range.
H2 - the member has the necessary auditory acuity to hear sounds of less than or equal to 30 dB in each ear in the 500 to 3000 Hz frequency range.
H3 - the member has the necessary auditory acuity to hear sounds of less than or equal to 50 dB in either ear in the 500 to 3000 Hz frequency range.
H4 - the member has the necessary auditory acuity to only hear sounds greater than 50 dB in either ear in the 500 to 3000 Hz frequency range.
NOTE 1 - Following a surgical procedure to improve hearing, an audiometric examination will be done to determine any residual hearing loss. The audiometric examination should be done at a time recommended post-operatively by the surgical specialist and the appropriate H grade assigned.

Straight from the CFP154.

MM


----------



## jack44

I have applied for the navy to be a marine electrician, the recruiter said I scored high on the cfat and in my interview but the medical showed that I have slight hearing loss and am at the h3 level, I have been told that because of the trade I chose, there demand for electricians and that I'm semi-skilled that I should get in fine, but I also read that only h1 and h2 will be accepted I'm wondering if any one can tell me.
As well a couple years ago I had tubes put in my ears the left fell out but the right is still in is this a problem?


----------



## Newt

Book an appointment with an audiologist. If you have a tube in your ear after two years you probably need a follow-on appointment anyways.

If your hearing is damaged an audiologist will also help you with a treatment or prevention plan to maintain your hearing.


----------



## jack44

yes I have seen an audioligist and the resuilts were the same


----------



## PMedMoe

Did you read this thread (or search) before you posted?

Enrollment Medical Standards



> H - Hearing (Auditory Acuity)
> H1 to H4  ( H1 is standard hearing or above, H4 is poor)
> You must be H1 or H2 to be enrolled.
> For more information click here:
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/55464.0.html


----------



## Fishbone Jones

There's plenty of threads on the subject, including the one above, available with a simple search in the general forums. Start with the word hearing.

Locked

Milnet.ca Staff


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## jack44

Hi, I have applied for the marine electrician trade and did the cfat, interview and physical already, I was told I scored high on the cfat and interview but during the physical I was at the H3 level for hearing and H2 is the standard. But I have been told by many people that due to the trade I've applied for and the fact that I would be enetering as semi-skilled I would be accepted. can anyone tell me if this is true?


----------



## Roy Harding

I'm moving your thread to a different board - you'll see the notice after I've done it.

Try these links (I didn't read all of them - I just did a search on "Hearing" in the Recruiting threads and picked a few that looked likely):

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/37674/post-311436.html#msg311436

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/32508.0.html

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/64213.0.html

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/22733.0.html

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33297.0.html

Best of luck to you.


Roy Harding
Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## dustinm

jack44 said:
			
		

> Hi, I have applied for the marine electrician trade and did the cfat, interview and physical already, I was told I scored high on the cfat and interview but during the physical I was at the H3 level for hearing and H2 is the standard. But I have been told by many people that due to the trade I've applied for and the fact that I would be enetering as semi-skilled I would be accepted. can anyone tell me if this is true?



Unfortunately in cases like this the standard party line is to say "Go see the CFRC", and for good reason. Nobody here can hazard any more than a guess as to whether they'll accept you, and we don't want to give you incorrect or fanciful information which might dash or raise your hopes unnecessarily. 

It might be frustrating waiting, but it would be more frustrating trying to make decisions based on wrong information.

I wish you good luck, however!


----------



## PMedMoe

I can say one thing with relative certainty, regardless of whether you are semi-skilled or not, if you do not meet the trade standard, you will not be accepted for that particular trade.


----------



## jack44

yes that is true i guess it has been a very annoying wait to find out.  And I do meet the trades hearing standard but not the standard of enrolment, which I find kinda of confusing


----------



## Eye In The Sky

jack44 said:
			
		

> yes that is true i guess it has been a very annoying wait to find out.  And I do meet the trades hearing standard but not the standard of enrolment, which I find kinda of confusing



Yes it is confusing.  I am not Medical/Health Services, nor do I play any on TV, but I did find a few links for you.

CFP 134 - Medical Standards

Chapter 3, Para 10 covers the Common Enrolment Medical Standards  stuff you are talking about.

The rest of the links are, well...self-explanatory I think.  Hope this helps some.  *Note - some of the info on the links may be dated/not current.  Annex E, for example is dated 2005 IIRC.  CFRCs will have the current data, IMO.


----------



## dustinm

jack44 said:
			
		

> And I do meet the trades hearing standard but not the standard of enrolment, which I find kinda of confusing



My best guess is that the Trade Standard exists so that injured soldiers whose hearing is damaged (for instance) beyond the level of the enrollment standard but who could otherwise perform their job effectively are able to continue to make positive contributions to the Forces.


----------



## medicineman

Neo Cortex said:
			
		

> My best guess is that the Trade Standard exists so that injured soldiers whose hearing is damaged (for instance) beyond the level of the enrollment standard but who could otherwise perform their job effectively are able to continue to make positive contributions to the Forces.



Correct.  

MM


----------



## philr1960

Hearing selection is strange i scored well in 500 1000  3000 4000 6000 and 8000 hertz. But because i missed on right side in 2000 hertz range looks like im screwed blue and tatooed. Unless this is a temp thing due to gun shot in inclosed space then i might still have a chance.


----------



## PMedMoe

philr1960 said:
			
		

> Unless this is a temp thing *due to gun shot in inclosed space* then i might still have a chance.



I don't even want to know......    :

But yes, it could be temporary.


----------



## philr1960

LOL sorry for not explaining gun shot was at an outdoor shooting range. Green flag was up stuck my head into shelter. Just as some moron who i guess didnt see flag or dosnt understand colors pulled trigger on m1 gerand. Due to shelter haveing 3walls sound was amplified looks like im paying for my blunder and his.


----------



## asadmalik87

I am a frequent browser of these forums and have a question with my current application, hopefully someone can advise me! 

Just to summarize my current application with the CF, I applied for DEO Aerospace control Officer about 6 months ago and have successfully completed the interview and background/reference check. Right now the only thing that is holding me back from being merit listed is the hearing portion of my medical.

To be more specific about my hearing issues, I am being listed as H3, as ONE tone on my right ear is listed at 40db (as opposed to 30db which would put me at H2 hearing and clear my medical). My ENT specialist assured me that this very minor "hearing loss" will not affect me. He even offered to write a letter to the medical staff stating that my hearing would not affect my daily tasks as an Aerospace Controller, however after speaking to the RMO at the recruiting office I don't think it would help as he told me that if my hearing test does not show that i am within the H2 range that I will NOT pass the medical.

So my question is, after 6 months of the application process, I will not be merit listed because of the 10db on one tone of my right ear? has anyone had any minor issues like this in the past that were successfully appealed? What should i do?


----------



## ModlrMike

asadmalik87 said:
			
		

> What should i do?



Move on! They're called STANDARDS for a reason.


----------



## xo31@711ret

As Mike has said...move on. I did recruiting medicals (as Mike) from 02 to 06 full time in the regs. Been doing it 'part time' since with the reserves since. Your ENT specialist / doctor may be a professional but I doubt he's ever worn a uniform or understands why the 'high' medical standard for the military. Not trying to sound like a pr**k, but if your a H3, you're a H3, no matter how 'small' or 'minor' a hearing deficit you think it is. Right now you think it's minor ( it's not for the military); what's the deficit going to be in 5 years; 1 year from now?  If an exception is made for you, what about the next person with say a 'minor' deficit of +45d on one tone in one ear? And yes, I'm no doctor or air contoller but I think a hearing deficit may be detrimental to the trade. And no, a hearing aid doesn't cut it.


----------



## medicineman

I'd have to say that a third ditto is unlucky for you, but the common enrolment standard is H2 - no if's, and's or but's.  I too have done Recruit medicals, albeit not as long as Mike or ex031, but haven't seen a successful challenge if the the audiogram was confirmed as such by the specialist, no matter what he thinks should be ok.  I'll say it again: "it's not personal, it's just business".  These are the standards, they are where we put our feet down and say "I'm sorry, but you can't do this job".  If we didn't, we'd have everyone and their great great uncles getting in when they really shouldn't.

MM


----------



## TCBF

- This is a noisy business, no matter what you do.  All of us will suffer some degree of hearing loss.  To start out as an H3 with no awareness of cause (previous industrial employment or Jethro Tull cranked up too loud on the headphones) may indicate a propensity for hearing loss. Yep - some of us are more genetically inclined to suffer hearing loss from noise than others.  Sad but true.


----------



## SupersonicMax

On the other hand, I don't believe the audiogram is the best way to test someone's hearing...  

I always have (audio) hallucinations in there....


----------



## armyvern

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> On the other hand, I don't believe the audiogram is the best way to test someone's hearing...
> 
> I always have (audio) hallucinations in there....



_Obviously_, you're special.


----------



## Nauticus

asadmalik87 said:
			
		

> I am a frequent browser of these forums and have a question with my current application, hopefully someone can advise me!
> 
> Just to summarize my current application with the CF, I applied for DEO Aerospace control Officer about 6 months ago and have successfully completed the interview and background/reference check. Right now the only thing that is holding me back from being merit listed is the hearing portion of my medical.
> 
> To be more specific about my hearing issues, I am being listed as H3, as ONE tone on my right ear is listed at 40db (as opposed to 30db which would put me at H2 hearing and clear my medical). My ENT specialist assured me that this very minor "hearing loss" will not affect me. He even offered to write a letter to the medical staff stating that my hearing would not affect my daily tasks as an Aerospace Controller, however after speaking to the RMO at the recruiting office I don't think it would help as he told me that if my hearing test does not show that i am within the H2 range that I will NOT pass the medical.
> 
> So my question is, after 6 months of the application process, I will not be merit listed because of the 10db on one tone of my right ear? has anyone had any minor issues like this in the past that were successfully appealed? What should i do?



It's unfortunate, but they are standards for a reason. The fact is, you aren't eligible for that trade because your hearing is not good enough. Period.

Perhaps there'll be another trade you'll enjoy just as much, with decreased audible standards.


----------



## xo31@711ret

Quote from: SupersonicMax on Yesterday at 20:29:53
On the other hand, I don't believe the audiogram is the best way to test someone's hearing...  

I always have (audio) hallucinations in there....

True, but I'm betting the individual DID do his medical at the recruiting centre / detachment; was found to have a hearing deficit with our audio-exam equipment & given a 'family doctor's letter' to clarify. The individual stated he was assesed by an ENT (Ears, Nose & Throat) specialist: a physician, who, in my my experience would have done a more thorough and detailed examination / audiogram and sent the results back to the medical section of the recruiting centre / detachment...


----------



## kincanucks

_Perhaps there'll be another trade you'll enjoy just as much, with decreased audible standards._

Again for the ill informed, regardless of what the trade medical standard is the applicant must meet the enrolment medical standard to be enrolled in the CF.


----------



## Scott

So it seems question asked and answered, no need to go further.

To the OP, I am going to lock this one but feel free to PM one of the Staff if you have any updates and we'll open it up for you.

On a personal note: it sucks for you, but as said by others: there are standards for a reason.

Good luck

Scott
Army.ca Staff


----------



## Trumpeter42

I'm hoping someone more knowlegeable about CF Medical standards can give me some advice here, or tell me I'm SOL.

I've been serving in Class A Reserves for 27 years. First 7 years was in combat arms trades, last 20 years as a musician. I'm in the
middle of a transfer, same trade/component in a different unit. I was told to go in for a medical as part of the transfer. Everything
was fine except for my hearing test. 8 years ago, I had a medical and was rated at H2. Last week the machine rated me at H4.

I'm now waiting for an appointment with a specialist and a more accurate hearing test. I know the official minimum for the musician
MOC is H3, although I'm not sure that's actually neccessary. I have no problem with musical overtones and pitch determination, and 
perform well in professional groups outside the military. 

Are they really going to kill my career over this? I've heard/read that some allowances have been given to allow Sr ranks to wear 
hearing aids and still serve (although I don't really need one to do my job). I remember a clerk in my unit years ago who wore a 
hearing aid... Do I have options here?


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## CombatDoc

Trumpeter42, the first thing to do is to confirm your hearing acuity through testing at your specialist.  It is not uncommon that the screening audiogram shows a higher number (e.g. H4) than is confirmed at the specialist (e.g. H2 or H3).  If, in fact, you are found to be below trade standards than you will be placed on a PCAT likely with the restrictions "Requires Maximum Hearing Protection" and your file would be sent to D Med Pol and then DMCA.  Depending on the level of hearing loss you may need a hearing aid.  If D Med Pol upholds the Medical Employment Limitations (and with H factor it's easy), the most common determination made by DMCA is Retain Without Restrictions.

In other words, the most important things to do are 1) confirm your current hearing capability and 2) protect that hearing from further loss.  Never say never, but I have yet to see a mbr released from the CF for a change in H factor.


----------



## Trumpeter42

CombatDoc,

Thanks so much for your insight. My plan is to do exactly what you've said. It's just nice to know that there is a chance of not being released.

Keeping my fingers crossed....


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## derekrobitaille

Hello, I am new here and this is my first post. I am glad to be a part of these forums and I have also been considering joining the Canadian Forces for a couple of years now. I have absolutely no clue what I want from civilian life and I am really stressed from student loans, the way life is right now and how it could be better. I just really need a wake up call and the forces is what can help me get my feet on the ground. University classes are pretty much all theory and it's hard to learn from writing notes everyday and reading them over and over. I'm a hands on typed person so theory is a little tough for me and when you leave University, you have nothing but a piece of paper claiming you have a Bachelor's Degree, etc; whereas, the forces, you have the hands on first-class training and all the experience.

Anyways, I am highly interested in the following career choices:

Aerospace Control Operator
Air Weapons Systems Technician
Airborne Electronic Sensor Operator
Aircraft Structures Technician
Aviation Systems Technician

and maybe a couple more.

I am twenty-years-old, turning twenty-one June, 9th, in University studying first semester in Criminology because I figured I would want to pursue a career in policing. Before that, I was in Photography and withdrew because I didn't think an education in Photography would benefit anything because I could learn myself and from others outside of a program anyhow. That was the biggest mistake I have ever made in my life, by far and I regret it ever since because it left me $9,000 in student loan debt and right now, I am on a $1600 student loan for my Criminology classes. IT SUCKS!!!

So, the past few days, I have been really considering applying to the forces because I need to start turning my life around. I love to travel and want to travel a lot more, I love photography, and I like planes so some of these career choices suit me well I think.

What really made me thinking today that if I applied, I would probably fail the medical test. I was born two months pre-mature and was put in an incubator for a while, which left me with asthma and high-frequency hearing loss. Asthma doesn't affect me whatsoever, in fact, I haven't taken medications for over two years and even before that, I had no use for the medications. What really concerns me is the hearing loss. When I was around four-years-old, I had to get a hearing test and hearing aids because apparently I couldn't hear properly. I was taking a test and there were buttons and noises so I don't think my maturity level was up to par obviously so I probably didn't understand when to push the button so that's when they determined I needed hearing aids. I can hear fine, haven't worn hearing aids since I was ten and I'm not hearing impaired. 

Finally, this leads me to asking this question. Can the recruiters deny me from a little high-frequency hearing loss? What does this have to do with actual hearing? I assume lots of people in this generation, mostly teenagers have high-frequency hearing loss because they listen to music too loudly and go to lots of concerts. Could I get ruled out just for this? If I do, I feel that my life will go even more downhill from here trying to figure something else out. I'm not depressed or anything, I'm just lost and kind of emotionally rattled with a lot of dreams that I want to act upon. I want to become a better leader and serve for our country, Canada and become a better person and help others out.


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## aesop081

derekrobitaille said:
			
		

> Could I get ruled out just for this?



The only way to tell is by doing the mmedical as part of the recruiting process. Yes, there are hearing standards to be met and if you are below them, it can rule you out.

You are thinking of one aircrew occupation so your asthma history *may* become an issue. Again, there is only one way to tell.


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## Occam

Why do people think that their own personal history might make a difference when it comes to enrolment medicals?  It's not personal.  Either you pass it or you don't.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/55464.0.html
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/1995.150.html

Please search!


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## Cdnleaf

Occam said:
			
		

> Why do people think that their own personal history might make a difference when it comes to enrolment medicals?  It's not personal.  Either you pass it or you don't.
> 
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/55464.0.html
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/1995.150.html
> Please search!



The first link on Auditory Acuity is a great post by Old Medic / much thanks. 

Derek - appreciate your sincerity and putting yourself/story out there.  Notwithstanding the outstanding links/resources on this site for information, as noted by CDN Aviator - get thee to a recruiting office to have your questions answered.  All the best, Dan.


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## derekrobitaille

Thanks for the replies. I used the search tool before posting and ran into both of the threads posted here. I just thought I would ask because the hearing one just states how the test is done. What if you can't hear 6000Hz? I did this online test in which I had to adjust the volume to the point where I could barely hear 2000Hz and then it asked if I could hear the tones ranging from 500Hz - 8000Hz. I could hear them all, but I had to really concentrate to be able to hear the 8000Hz. Like you all said, I can only find out if I apply and do the medical. I'm nervous just thinking about the medical. I'm in great health, play sports, but it's just my hearing that gets to me the most.


----------



## Occam

derekrobitaille said:
			
		

> Thanks for the replies. I used the search tool before posting and ran into both of the threads posted here. I just thought I would ask because the hearing one just states how the test is done. What if you can't hear 6000Hz? I did this online test in which I had to adjust the volume to the point where I could barely hear 2000Hz and then it asked if I could hear the tones ranging from 500Hz - 8000Hz. I could hear them all, but I had to really concentrate to be able to hear the 8000Hz. Like you all said, I can only find out if I apply and do the medical. I'm nervous just thinking about the medical. I'm in great health, play sports, but it's just my hearing that gets to me the most.



It explains what happens if you can't hear 6000 Hz.  If you can hear all the tones from 500 to 8000 with no problems, you're an H1.  See the specs for H2?  If you can no longer hear the 6000 Hz, but everything is fine from 500 to 3000 Hz, you're an H2.  You only need the tones > 3000 Hz to achieve H1.

You can be enrolled as a H1 or a H2.


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## derekrobitaille

I'll go talk to the recruiters this week.


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## JB 11 11

derekrobitaille said:
			
		

> Thanks for the replies. I used the search tool before posting and ran into both of the threads posted here. I just thought I would ask because the hearing one just states how the test is done. What if you can't hear 6000Hz? I did this online test in which I had to adjust the volume to the point where I could barely hear 2000Hz and then it asked if I could hear the tones ranging from 500Hz - 8000Hz. I could hear them all, but I had to really concentrate to be able to hear the 8000Hz. Like you all said, I can only find out if I apply and do the medical. I'm nervous just thinking about the medical. I'm in great health, play sports, but it's just my hearing that gets to me the most.



I have a diploma in Sound Engineering and the first they tell you is to go get your hearing checked.... and then to keep getting it checked on regular intervals, as in that profession, your ears are your bread and butter. 

Needless to say, I've been through quite a few hearing tests, including the one for my CF Medical. In all of them I've been told by the test that I should sinal that I hear the tones no matter how faint they are.... so I wouldn't be too worried about your performance on the 5ooHz-8000Hz. 

The average hearing range for humans is 20Hz - 20 000Hz, but even by the time we're 8yrs old, our ability to hear higher frequencies is starting to fade. 20 000Hz is pretty high... most people can "percive" or "feel" it, but very few can actually hear it. Personally, Im good until about 15-16 000 hz, any higher and I could probablly tell you when the tone was playing but its not because I can "Hear" it.

Another thing worth noting is that the High end frequency cut off for MP3's is 18 000Hz and thats a good quality Mp3. The crap that most kids are down loading these days are well below that.... around 15-16 Khz, so personally speaking, most people in their 20's wouldn't know a high frequency if they heard it ; )

But the important thing for you going into the CF, is the 85Hz -255Hz range which is the average range of the human voice, or more importantly, the average range of your Staff's voice ; )


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## CombatDoc

derekrobitaille said:
			
		

> What really made me thinking today that if I applied, I would probably fail the medical test. I was born two months pre-mature and was put in an incubator for a while, which left me with asthma and high-frequency hearing loss. Asthma doesn't affect me whatsoever, in fact, I haven't taken medications for over two years and even before that, I had no use for the medications. What really concerns me is the hearing loss.


Although only the Recruiting Medical Officer can say for certain, if I was a betting man I would bet that your asthma history is more important during your recruit medical than your self-described normal hearing.  Good luck with your application, should you decide to apply.


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## JB 11 11

^ +1


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## farrell486

Currently i have a H4 in hearing catergory, been like this since 2001.  My file when to D Med Pol for review as myself and the medical staff both agreed i didn't meet certain points of the UOS. Anyway file came back from Ottawa saying I'm fit for service.  So i asked the MO if i released from reg force could i join the reserves.  The answer was no i couldn't as i don't meet the min trade specs for any trades in the CF.
I've dagged red for the past 10 years, sounds like a issue of money being invested in me as others have been released with hearing alot better than mine.


----------



## fraserdw

What's the question?  I, too, have an H4 in an H2 trade.  I have had it since 2001 and been denied a VA pension.  My accomodation is "fit for service while so employed or too CRA".  Like me you fell through the cracks be happy you have a job.


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## farrell486

Point is first i wanted out and then a reserve job was offered to me (which i can't take) so i figure since the Military broke me they should take resposibility.


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## aesop081

Are you being forced to release based on your medical status ?


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## fraserdw

If you are forced to release then you have a cause for a VA Pension.  It will not be much as hearing is not disabling in our modern society.  You will not be allowed to join the militray again on a Med Release and you will unlikely be able to get into a police force.  If they are keeping you then you got a job til they change their mind (kinda like being a full time reservist).  Breaking you is compensated by the VA pension, they are under no obligation to keep you unless they can employ you out of trade (ie HQ or ERE).


----------



## fraserdw

Ohh, they are required to prove that your hearing is not correctable by aids.  If it is, then they have to offer those aid and retain you UNLESS those aids impair your ability to do your job or the use of those aids would further damage your hearing.


----------



## aesop081

If you are being retained in the RegF....then yes, they are taking resposability for you.

If you do not meet the trade speacs for the reserves, thats just how it is.


----------



## kj_gully

H4 and no VA lump sum? Talk to your regional legion advocate- that is not right. There is a disability there, unless you said that you went to rock concerts in your leisure time and stuck your head in the speakers...


----------



## Duane

Hey all.

 Not sure what to do? I have recently applied for reserve forces. Passed everything except my hearing. Came in as H3. Min stardards are H2. My levels were 35 db in one ear. the other was fine. New entrants are to meet H2 standards. My thoughts are is there any real chance or point in appaeling this issue. It dosn't make sense to go in a @#$$desturber.

 Willing to hear your thoughts on this. Ha Ha pun intended

 Thanks


----------



## medicineman

Duane said:
			
		

> Hey all.
> 
> Not sure what to do? I have recently applied for reserve forces. Passed everything except my hearing. Came in as H3. Min stardards are H2. My levels were 35 db in one ear. the other was fine. New entrants are to meet H2 standards. My thoughts are is there any real chance or point in appaeling this issue. It dosn't make sense to go in a @#$$desturber.
> 
> Willing to hear your thoughts on this. Ha Ha pun intended
> 
> Thanks



Did you get retested by an audiologist?  When I worked Recruiting, we did that routinely if someone had a potential hearing category on the screening test...if however you were retested and still came out H3, well I'd have to bluntly put it that you're hooped.

MM


----------



## Duane

Thanks medicineman.

 That's what I thought. I work with and near heavy machinery and tools and will keep getting hearing tests done in case by some miracle my test levels change.

 Am I correct in thinking I could then bring the new test scores to the recruiting office and ask them to update my status at at later date, which would them re qualify me.

 And if so would I then have to go through the whole process again, or just the PT and Med.


----------



## medicineman

If you had your hearing retested with a formal audiogram (the one at the CFRC is actually a screening test) by an audiologist and the results are good, I'd bring them back for re-evaluation.  

MM


----------



## Fadiko

The subject is self explanatory. Is there any position (Whatsoever, I don't care if you clean toilets) in the army where being in perfect medical condition is not necessary? Although I am 17, my hearing is not the best, and I was recommened to get hearing aids. I can talk with someone normally, and without problems, but my deafness shows when you play a low frequency sound, that is what I have trouble with.

I also have slight colorblindness (Doctor told me it was usual for guys  to have it).

So here I am, wanting to join the Forces. Will they even consider me? Or will they just ignore my application? Is there any jobs that do not require this?


----------



## mariomike

Fadiko said:
			
		

> I also have slight colorblindness (Doctor told me it was usual for guys  to have it).
> 
> So here I am, wanting to join the Forces. Will they even consider me? Or will they just ignore my application? Is there any jobs that do not require this?



Best bet is to ask CFRC.

You may also find these discussions of interest.

Enrollment medical > Hearing Test Questions
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/32508.0/nowap.html

Color Blindness... 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/26420.0.html

Colour Vision Category  
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/37585.0.html


----------



## Bassil_Inf

Hey buddy, as for your hearing, here you go:


> H1
> - the member has the necessary auditory acuity to hear sounds of less than or equal to 30 dB in each ear in the 500 to 8000 Hz
> frequency range.
> 
> H2
> - The member has the necessary auditory acuity to hear sounds of less than or equal to 30 dB in each ear in the 500 to 3000 Hz
> frequency range.
> 
> H3
> - The member has the necessary auditory acuity to hear sounds of less than or equal to 50 dB in either ear in the 500 to 3000 Hz
> frequency range.
> 
> H4
> - The member has the necessary auditory acuity to only hear sounds greater than 50 dB in either ear in the 500 to 3000 Hz



There are different requirements for different trades, when I find the link to the exact requirements il update my post! Good luck man!


----------



## mariomike

DarkInfantry232 said:
			
		

> There are different requirements for different trades, when I find the link to the exact requirements il update my post!



Medical Standards for Military Occupations
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-medical-occupations/index.page

Date modified:2013-07-23

I see a .pdf of one dated 11 July 2005. ( Ref : A-MD-154-000/FP-000 APPENDIX 1, ANNEX E )

It may now be obsolete. 

It is probably best for the original poster to wait until the new one comes out, or even better, to contact a CFRC.


----------



## SPM

I am hoping to get feed back on understanding why I was rejected from the recruitment process. I have looked through this forum along with the Hearing standards for the Canadian armed forces recruitment process. I recently received my rejection letter stating my hearing ability does not meet common enrolment medical standards.

H1- the member has the necessary auditory acuity to hear sounds of less than or equal to 30 dB in each ear in the 500 to 8000 Hz 
  frequency range.

H2  
- The member has the necessary auditory acuity to hear sounds of less than or equal to 30 dB in each ear in the 500 to 3000 Hz 
   frequency range.

H3  - The member has the necessary auditory acuity to hear sounds of less than or equal to 50 dB in either ear in the 500 to 3000 Hz 
   frequency range.

H4  
- The member has the necessary auditory acuity to only hear sounds greater than 50 dB in either ear in the 500 to 3000 Hz 
   frequency range. 

My results from an Audiogram were: 250Hz-3000Hz never went below 10dB, 4000Hz Right ear 55dB, Left ear 35db.
Looking at the post and medical standards I would fall into H2 hearing correct? There for should not of received the letter (In my opinion)

Can some one explain to me why I would be rejected based on my auditory results and if I am not classified as H2?

Please note the date this is posted, since all CFRC are closed till the 6th of January and I am hoping to get insight until then.

Thank you for your time and this is my first post on here so I apologize if it is in the wrong spot or anything else that is wrong with it.


----------



## ModlrMike

SPM said:
			
		

> Please note the date this is posted, since all CFRC are closed till the 6th of January and I am hoping to get insight until then.



I think you will hope in vain. No one here will be able to answer your question.


----------



## PMedMoe

55 dB in your right ear would indicate H4 to me....but I could be mistaken....


----------



## dapaterson

I am not an audiologist, nor is anyone else here on the forum (as far as I know).  While I can Google with the best of them, I am not in a place to explain an audiogram nor to relate it to the CAF common medical standards.

Licensed medical professionals do not diagnose on an internet chat board; all you'll get will be Internet Experts expressing opinions.

Wait, then talk to the recruiters in two weeks to understand the what and why.  And if things change and you are able to join the CAF, you'll already have completed PO 401.07: Hurry Up And Wait.


----------



## Occam

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> 55 dB in your right ear would indicate H4 to me....but I could be mistaken....



He mentioned 55 dB @ 4 kHz, but 10 dB for the speech range of 500-3000 Hz, which on the face of it would indicate H2.  Perhaps they forgot to mention some other reason that the hearing didn't meet the enrolment standard.   :dunno:


----------



## medicineman

Was wondering the same thing...since (unless things have changed in the recent past) H2 is minimum hearing for CEMS.  Might be the pattern of the hearing loss or something a little more drastic we're not privy to.

op:


----------



## SPM

Two weeks ago I received my notice that my appeal was successfully over turned. I am now currently on the Merit list. A long journey has ended an even longer journey ahead. Excited to hopefully hear a job offer soon so I can start in the military. Thanks to every one for reading this post and good luck with your applications.


----------



## aquaholic75

SPM said:
			
		

> Two weeks ago I received my notice that my appeal was successfully over turned. I am now currently on the Merit list. A long journey has ended an even longer journey ahead. Excited to hopefully_* hear*_ a job offer soon so I can start in the military. Thanks to every one for reading this post and good luck with your applications.



Pun alert   Congratulations by the way.


----------



## Trumpeter42

I thought I would post a follow-up to my original post in 2010. At that time, I did a second hearing test with an audiologist and was able to squeak by with an H3 rating. So my transfer was successful. 

Since then, my career has progressed and I'm now preparing for my next (final) career promotion. Sure enough, at my age, my medical expires every 2 years so I'm going to have to do it again. It's also difficult to do the annual Force test without a current medical. I've been aggressively trying to protect my hearing since 2010... Custom earplugs in use anywhere there is loud noise, concerts, movies, gun firing, etc.  Somehow, I still feel my hearing is still not what it was 3 years ago. 

Keeping my fingers crossed again....


----------



## Spartan80

I was told the same thing with Single sided deafness, being deaf in my right ear with no hearing being registered, but I can still do the work without harming personnel could or should I appeal this? 

Thanks.


----------



## Ayrsayle

Spartan80 said:
			
		

> I was told the same thing with Single sided deafness, being deaf in my right ear with no hearing being registered, but I can still do the work without harming personnel could or should I appeal this?
> 
> Thanks.



Not sure why this is such a hard thing to understand.  You may *feel* you are capable of doing the job, but ultimately the CAF has deemed otherwise.  I have a friend who's dream was to be in the military - he is also profoundly deaf.  Could he do some tasks? Yes. Can he meet the minimum requirements of the CAF? No.  What did you hope to appeal?


----------



## Spartan80

I'm not sure, I understand everything is based on how I'd do but I wouldn't just want to give it up just like that. that is all, I feel as if I am required to try, the medical officer told me I could still apply even after being told what he told me... why would he say that?


----------



## Ayrsayle

Spartan80 said:
			
		

> I'm not sure, I understand everything is based on how I'd do but I wouldn't just want to give it up just like that. that is all, I feel as if I am required to try, the medical officer told me I could still apply even after being told what he told me... why would he say that?



No idea, you'd have to ask him.

Let me give you an example of how being deaf in one year is be an issue.  Radios are often set up to have different "nets" into a single headset, one in each ear. - while deployed in the field I listen to two separate radio communications at the same time.  Might be a bit of an issue if I have no idea my boss is talking to me while I am talking to others, no?

If you haven't been told your application will not be processed, by all means give it a try.  When you say things like "appeal" it implies you have already have been given a final answer.  While it may not be easily understood, the minimum standards typically exist for a good reason.


----------



## Spartan80

Thank you, I'm unsure if I was given a final answer, he just said "based on your report you do not fit medical standards for enlistment in CAF" "However if you'd like you can still apply" So that what he told me. What do you recommend I do?


----------



## Ayrsayle

There are obviously some details left out here.  I'm assuming you went into a CFRC with the following details about your hearing stated up front and were told that you wouldn't meet the requirements.  My assumption (you'd need to fill in some details here) is that he is telling you, in his professional opinion, that an application would not meet the minimum requirements due to this fact.  You aren't prevented from applying, but you are highly likely (read almost certainly) to get the same response when your application makes it to the medical.

There is nothing to appeal until your application is denied.  Not that I am advocating that route however.


----------



## Harris

He told you that because the system is not allowed to stop you from applying.  Once you do apply, then the appropriate part of the system (in this case medical) will assess you and then tell you that you don't meet the minimum required standard.

What should you do?  IMO you should not bother applying as all you will do is create more work for no gain.  Sorry you can't be in the CAF.  If you still want to give back to society, there are plenty of other ways.  Volunteer or join a service organization that doesn't have as strict standards as the CAF.

My two cents worth.  Take it or leave it.


----------



## Spartan80

I went and wrote my CFAT, but with my hearing being a big concern with my chance of success I had faxed over a copy of my most recent audio gram and a Sgt in the medical office had looked at it and called me back. I have within normal hearing in the left ear and no hearing in the right. so I decided to ask.What do you suggest I do in the route of giving back to the service members who have given their all to me? Also I truly do appreciate all the help I am getting, this really does bug me as I am unsure as what to do as a career now 





			
				Ayrsayle said:
			
		

> There are obviously some details left out here.  I'm assuming you went into a CFRC with the following details about your hearing stated up front and were told that you wouldn't meet the requirements.  My assumption (you'd need to fill in some details here) is that he is telling you, in his professional opinion, that an application would not meet the minimum requirements due to this fact.  You aren't prevented from applying, but you are highly likely (read almost certainly) to get the same response when your application makes it to the medical.


----------



## Brasidas

Spartan80 said:
			
		

> What do you suggest I do in the route of giving back to the service members who have given their all to me?



Since you already know the outcome, how about not wasting resources in the recruiting system? I appreciate that you're disappointed, but you're not going to receive some sort of special waiver that gets you past basic medical requirements.


----------



## Tibbson

:-X


----------



## medicineman

Dude - I get that you're upset, but the fact is that you require binaural hearing and binocular vision to be enrolled.  That's it.  That's all.  You aren't the first to be told and I'm sure you won't be the last.  You can appeal if you like, it's your right, however suffice to say this - it's been challenged in court many a time and the SCC has upheld that CAF is still allowed to discriminate based on disabilities due to the potential and actual nature of employment.  Lots of people (even some doctors that have entertained me with claims about their patients) with ZERO military experience feel that they can do the job - we do/did the job and know what it entails and why the standards are what they are.

Honestly I'm sorry you got the "Dear John" letter.  I hope the next path that appears is right for you.

MM


----------



## Spartan80

I do too, thanks guys it does suck but that was the hand I was dealt. As someone mentioned there are some organizations that I can work for possibly to give back to service members?


----------



## Ayrsayle

My first instinct would be to recommend looking at CIC, but I am not sure what the medical requirements are to get into that area.


----------



## Spartan80

Citizenship and Immigration?


----------



## Treemoss

Spartan80 said:
			
		

> I was told the same thing with Single sided deafness, being deaf in my right ear with no hearing being registered, but I can still do the work without harming personnel could or should I appeal this?
> 
> Thanks.



Since I know SPM in real life, I am prevvy to everything he did to be successful in the application process. 


Basically he went to a hearing specialist that did a sound test, showed the doctor the hearing standards for the CAF, and then the doctor wrote a lil something up saying he was within those standards. Afterwards he wrote up a nice appeal, submitted it, and later won. 


Now.. something he did have to do in October before getting a while back was do another medical since it had been a year... and according to him the people that did his medical before screwed it all up.. cause he was actually within the standard to begin with.


So... that's what you got to do. 


And this...



			
				SPM said:
			
		

> Two weeks ago I received my notice that my appeal was successfully over turned. I am now currently on the Merit list. A long journey has ended an even longer journey ahead. Excited to hopefully hear a job offer soon so I can start in the military. Thanks to every one for reading this post and good luck with your applications.



Amazing.. job offer soon.. hah... we were so impatient lol. Although he did get a job offer in march.. for the wrong occupation.


----------



## RedcapCrusader

Spartan80 said:
			
		

> Citizenship and Immigration?



Cadet Instructors Cadre.

They have basically one requirement: you can't be a sexual predator.


----------



## Spartan80

So, treemoss what do you recommend I do?


----------



## PMedMoe

Spartan80 said:
			
		

> So, treemoss what do you recommend I do?



It seems that he's advising you to appeal the decision, however, IMO since you are deaf in one ear, your case is completely different than that of SPM (who Treemoss quoted).

I tend to agree with this comment:



			
				Harris said:
			
		

> He told you that because the system is not allowed to stop you from applying.  Once you do apply, then the appropriate part of the system (in this case medical) will assess you and then tell you that you don't meet the minimum required standard.
> 
> What should you do?  IMO you should not bother applying as all you will do is create more work for no gain.  Sorry you can't be in the CAF.  If you still want to give back to society, there are plenty of other ways.  Volunteer or join a service organization that doesn't have as strict standards as the CAF.
> 
> My two cents worth.  Take it or leave it.


----------



## Treemoss

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> It seems that he's advising you to appeal the decision, however, IMO since you are deaf in one ear, your case is completely different than that of SPM (who Treemoss quoted).



Yes, if you feel strongly about wanting to appeal the decision go for it. But it's a long process, and if you've already been determined "deaf" medically by a doctor then I don't think it'll bold well but stranger things have happened.

It's unfortunate. Not wanting vs being told no sucks.


----------



## George Wallace

Treemoss said:
			
		

> Yes, if you feel strongly about wanting to appeal the decision go for it. But it's a long process, and if you've already been determined "deaf" medically by a doctor then I don't think it'll bold well but stranger things have happened.
> 
> It's unfortunate. Not wanting vs being told no sucks.



Treemoss

This is a WARNING.

Please pay heed to this warning NOT TO GIVE ADVICE where you are NOT QUALIFIED to do so.  You are not yet a member of the Canadian Armed Forces, and NOT A RECRUITER, so you are well outside your lanes to be giving advice on matters you have no experience or knowledge on.


----------



## Treemoss

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Treemoss
> 
> This is a WARNING.
> 
> Please pay heed to this warning NOT TO GIVE ADVICE where you are NOT QUALIFIED to do so.  You are not yet a member of the Canadian Armed Forces, and NOT A RECRUITER, so you are well outside your lanes to be giving advice on matters you have no experience or knowledge on.




I was simply offering my opinion on the situation? I wasn't going over anyones head here at all. But fine, I'll just stop posting all together.


----------



## AlexGallant

I don't find it anywhere but what is the hearing standard to pass ? H1,H2,H3,H4


----------



## Occam

AlexGallant said:
			
		

> I don't find it anywhere but what is the hearing standard to pass ? H1,H2,H3,H4



Use Google to search the site.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=site%3A+army.ca+enrolment+hearing+standard


----------



## DAA

AlexGallant said:
			
		

> I don't find it anywhere but what is the hearing standard to pass ? H1,H2,H3,H4



See the heading "Common Enrolment Medical Standard", which will tell you that you can't be sorse than an H2.  The only "exceptions" to CEMS, are for those with prior CF Service and who are trying to rejoin in the exact same occupation that they were in, when they released.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-medical-occupations/cf-medical-category-system.page


----------



## HopefullyNotH3

_Tried the search option - no result._

Good morning.

I am fairly confident that I passed the hearing test (I got a glimpse at my audiogram results and the graph was similar to the examples of good hearing that I found online)

However, I may have screwed myself at the beginning by not responding promptly to the first couple of sounds.

The first sound I heard was 1 beep quickly followed by 2 beeps, but at a lower frequency. I thought I only had to respond to that first beep, since the next two beeps appeared to be from the same "sound". After that... I decided to quickly respond to every beep I heard, regardless of how close together they were.

I'm probably over thinking this, but any insight you guys can provide in regards to the audiogram test will be appreciated.

Thanks, have a good week.

Is a re-do possible?


----------



## Centro

I just asked if I passed and looked at results with the medical guy. Not sure why you wouldn't just ask him or her what your results were.

Besides that, I'm sure they would have told you if you failed a hearing test.


----------



## sarahsmom

The test is administered by a computer program. If it (the computer) feels you did not answer correctly (buzzed in too many times per sound, or not quickly enough) it will make you test that sound again until it is satisfied that you are not guessing.
Normally it "beeps" 3 times in a row, to give your ear time to recognize to the frequency. You only need to press the buzzer once. Again if you buzz in too many times, the machine will play the instructions again and the test will restart.

If it was the old school machine that is completely controlled by the tester, it is subject to operator error, but the same principle applies.  If the tester thinks you haven't heard the sound, they will retest that frequency until they are convinced of the result.

*Most* trades in the military do not require perfect hearing. So no need to stress about this test. If the result are truly concerning to the medic or M.O. at recruiting, they may ask you to get a formal audiogram done at an outside hearing clinic.
You will repeat his hearing test EVERY time you do a medical with the military, btw.


----------



## zurst

As far as I understand the hearing requirements are H2 to join. 

I just got back from my second hearing test and scored in the H1 category for all frequencies (between 8 and 14dB) with the exception of 2000hz where I scored 40 in my Left ear and 35 in my right ear making my overall results an H3.  
I'm scheduled to see my family doctor and a specialist (in October) I'm hoping I'll either be able to get my issue resolved or have my condition documented and have my doctor write a letter about how little this actually affects my overall hearing. 
My question is is it possible that they ever make exceptions for the entry requirement if I can't improve my one frequency? I already meet the requirements for the position (RMS clerk) and passed everything else with the exception of my hearing. Currently my application is on hold until I see the doctor.


----------



## CombatDoc

zurst said:
			
		

> As far as I understand the hearing requirements are H2 to join.
> 
> I just got back from my second hearing test and scored in the H1 category for all frequencies (between 8 and 14dB) with the exception of 2000hz where I scored 40 in my Left ear and 35 in my right ear making my overall results an H3...My question is is it possible that they ever make exceptions for the entry requirement if I can't improve my one frequency?


No exceptions. They are called Common Enrollment Medical Standards for a reason. Good luck with your application.


----------



## medicineman

ArmyDoc said:
			
		

> No exceptions. They are called Common Enrollment Medical Standards for a reason. Good luck with your application.



Beat me to it.

MM


----------



## LBeirnes

Hello,

Just a quick question for everyone. I recently went for my interview and medical, and passed the interview no problem but the medical hearing test was a bit of a different story. The gentleman doing the test found I have hearing loss in the 8000Hz range below 75dB, and I have to go for a specialized hearing test. I looked at the hearing test topic on here and it seems that I would fit into the H2 range for between 500 and 3000Hz, so I am not sure why this test is required? Also wondering if I am able to get the test done at a hearing center instead of waiting for a referral to an audiologist which could take quite some time.

I would appreciate any insight you can provide, 

Thanks


----------



## mariomike

LBeirnes said:
			
		

> I looked at the hearing test topic on here



There is more than one,

Hearing test - confused?
http://milnet.ca/forums/threads/122385/post-1423027/topicseen.html#new

Question on Hearing Catagory....WHAT????  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/72861.0

Hearing tests and category  
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/55464.0.html

H2 Hearing but "Does not Meet Common Enrolment Medical Standards"
http://army.ca/forums/threads/113415.0

Hearing Test Questions  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/32508.0

Hearing Test failed  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/84639.0

High-Frequency Hearing Loss  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/98867.0

Hearing test in transfer medical....  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/97359.0

Medical question on hearing  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/104480.0

Hearing Issue  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/119658.0

Hearing  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/118592.0

Hearing Test/Audiogram Question  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/118944.0

RMO Review Decision Denied on very minor H3 Hearing -- Best way to Appeal?
https://army.ca/forums/threads/91297.0

Hearing for Marine electrician  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/87845.0/nowap.html

Can I join if I have terrible hearing?
https://army.ca/forums/threads/111944.0

slight hearing loss  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/87556.0

Hearing requirements ?
http://army.ca/forums/threads/64213.0

See also,

Table of Hearing standards
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-medical-occupations/cf-hearing-standards.page

As always, Recruiting is your most trusted source of information.


----------



## LBeirnes

Thank you for that, appreciate the help.


----------



## mariomike

LBeirnes said:
			
		

> Thank you for that, appreciate the help.



You are welcome. Good luck.


----------



## frankunderwood

Hello, Im interested in joining the Air Force as an officer. Does the Air Force accept new recruits who have the Cochlear Implants surgery?


----------



## Drew Grey

Okay so first off let me start by saying I have searched through a lot of the hearing threads and still have a question regarding hearing. 

I currently work in the trades and have been exposed to some loud noises as well as iv been to some concerts with some pretty ear shattering bass. Point is my hearing is fine and I have no trouble hearing people and sounds. However, When it comes to hearing faint noises over loud background noise I am a little bit handicapped. I understand hearing does not need to be perfect for infantry and combat engineer (which is what I applied for). Should I be worried? Im guessing pretty well everyone who has applied for the forces doesn't have perfect hearing right?


----------



## Loachman

I've merged all of the links that mariomike provided above, less the last one as it is not an Army.ca thread, and stickied this.

Drew Grey - Either you meet the Common Enrolment Standards, or you do not (as discussed in this and other medical-related threads). You will not know for certain until you apply and see the results of your medical testing.


----------



## MirrorsEdge

zurst said:
			
		

> As far as I understand the hearing requirements are H2 to join.



Got a question for clarification, since I'm doing my medical in the next week or so (just waiting on the actual date to get scheduled). And apologies if the answer is somewhere and I haven't seen it, but I have looked to no avail.

My trade specific standard is H3 (the whole string is 423225), but the Common Enrollment Standard that I've heard mentioned is H2. Does that mean that over the course of a military career, it could degrade to H3 and if it ever became H4, you'd be deemed unfit, but that to get in to start would require an H2 or higher? Or would you be allowed in even if you had H3 to start?

The reason I ask is because on another thread, it says:
"Based on the above standards, the minimum Medical Category you need to be enrolled is 432225
If you do meet the common standard, your medical category is then compared to the minimum category for your selected occupations."

I have no idea what my hearing levels actually are and obviously that will come out in a medical and maybe an audiologist exam. I do have hearing aids and wear them occasionally, but usually only for times when it's critical (job interviews) or things like classrooms, so obviously I have a slight problem. Speaking to one military medical person informally, I was told that "unless I have cochlear implants, it shouldn't be a problem". I'm hoping that's the case


----------



## dapaterson

If the enrolment and occupational standards differ, the more stringent applies on enrolment.

Over time, if your hearing deteriorates, as long as you continue to meet the standards for your trade there should be no repercussions.  If you go below trade standards, depending on the situation, you could be retained without restriction, retained with restrictions, ordered into a compulsory occupational transfer, or ordered released.  What will happen depends on the specific details of your situation.


----------



## MirrorsEdge

Thanks for the confirmation. I realized that I was reading something incorrectly (which was that if you *do* meet the requirements, then it is compared to your trade , which I had been reading before as if you *don't* meet them).

Might call my hearing clinic and see if I can get a printout of my audiology results prior to my exam. I know I'm going to need to test regardless and might have to get a new exam entirely if there was a discrepancy, but it'd be nice to know in advance where I'm at.


----------



## cawliin

Hey, so I've gotten a letter from the medical staff saying that I don't fit the CEMS due to a hearing deficit. I'm trying to join as a med tech and I am considered "semi-skilled" (paramedic license).  According to DAOD 5002-1 the CEMS can be waived:

"Meet the common enrolment medical standard of V4 CV3 H2 G2 O2 A5 as set out in A-MD-154-000/FP-000, Medical Standards for the Canadian Forces.
The Comd CFRG or the Comd's delegate may waive the common enrolment medical standard for an applicant who:
    is skilled or semi-skilled; and
    is able to bypass any basic or common military training following enrolment."

I can complete the common military tasks and meet the minimum medical standard assigned to the med tech occupation (H3), would it be possible for me to get waived?
I also know of a surgical procedure that can fix my hearing, would it be worth to do it and re-enrolling instead of waiting for a response from the medical staff? or should I try and get waived?


----------



## mariomike

cawliin said:
			
		

> Hey, so I've gotten a letter from the medical staff saying that I don't fit the CEMS due to a hearing deficit.



You may, or may not, find these discussions of interest,

Challenging a medical decision/Requesting second review  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/37404/post-1461930.html#msg1461930

_As always,_  Recruiting is your most trusted source of official and up to date information. 

"Unofficial site, not associated with DND or the Canadian Armed Forces."


----------



## sarahsmom

cawliin said:
			
		

> The Comd CFRG or the Comd's delegate may waive the common enrolment medical standard for an applicant who:
> is skilled or semi-skilled; and
> is able to bypass any basic or common military training following enrolment."



Note the second line. It says AND IS ABLE TO BYPASS BASIC TRAINING following enrolment. Wouldd you be granted recruit school bypass? If not, it doesn't matter if you are skilled or semi-skilled, you do not meet the second condition.

As for the surgery, do it for yourself if you want. Don't do it for a job, as you are still not guaranteed a job. You could still get denied for any number of reasons, including the surgery itself.


----------



## cawliin

When it comes to basic training, according to the people I've spoken to (friends in the military/ people that have had hearing problems and gotten waived) I would be able to pass training. My hearing is normal in my right ear, I just can't hear much on the left. As long as the sound isn't extremely isolated to only my left ear (i.e hearing earplugs + ear mufflers on the right and trying to listen on the left)


----------



## cawliin

paleomedic said:
			
		

> Note the second line. It says AND IS ABLE TO BYPASS BASIC TRAINING following enrolment. Wouldd you be granted recruit school bypass? If not, it doesn't matter if you are skilled or semi-skilled, you do not meet the second condition.
> 
> As for the surgery, do it for yourself if you want. Don't do it for a job, as you are still not guaranteed a job. You could still get denied for any number of reasons, including the surgery itself.



When it comes to basic training, according to the people I've spoken to (friends in the military/ people that have had hearing problems and gotten waived) I would be able to pass training. My hearing is normal in my right ear, I just can't hear much on the left. As long as the sound isn't extremely isolated to only my left ear (i.e hearing earplugs + ear mufflers on the right and trying to listen on the left)


----------



## PuckChaser

It doesn't matter if you could pass basic.  If you haven't already completed it, you are not eligible for a recruit school bypass.


----------



## kev994

My MEL says that in need to wear specialized hearing protection provided by DMedPol whenever I am in an aircraft or firing a weapon. Has anyone ever seen this? I’m not sure what hearing protection they are talking about, I haven’t been issued or fitted for anything.


----------



## ThePole

Good day, 

Figured I would start a thread in relation to how people have gone about appealing their H3 rejections and if anyone has successfully entered with hearing aids.

My self I intend on using DOAD 5015.0 to appeal my rejection.

anyone else? Suggestions?


----------



## mariomike

ThePole said:
			
		

> to appeal my rejection.



For reference to the discussion, 

Appeal of Enrollment Medical [Merged] 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/22935.0
8 pages.


----------



## da1root

Just as a side note, read who DAOD 5015-0 applies to

"This is a directive that applies to employees of the Department of National Defence (DND employees) and an order that applies to officers and non-commissioned members of the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF members) who act as managers or supervisors of DND employees."

At the moment you are neither a DND Employee or a CAF member so this DAOD does not apply to you.


----------



## Signals03

Hi, 

I just came back from the medical at recruiting centre and am a bit concerned with the hearing test today. 
My hearing at high frequency (6000-7000) is bad and it has been for a few years. But in the frequency range of 500-5000, I can hear under 10 db. But the medic put me as H4, but I argued with him as politely as I could but he said since the drop from 5000 to 6000 is of 50 db, he has to put it as H4. I think he messed up, but can anyone provide any information regarding this.

Thank you.


----------

