# PROCESSING TIMES:  A 2003/2004 BREAKDOWN.



## kincanucks (8 Apr 2005)

1.	Okay lets start with 24,000 applicants (Officers (all plans) and NCMs (all plans) for 2003/2004 (15,000 Reg F and 9,000 Res F).  After processing (CFAT, Drug Screening, Medical, Interview and applicants voluntary withdrawing (3600)) there are 12,300 left with 4600 of those being enrolled (results of selection boards for Officers and NCMs) in the Reg F and 4200 of those being enrolled (some changed their minds) in the Res F.

2.	What would be ideal for processing times:

A=complete application received (med docs and prior service records received if applicable).

CFAT                                    A+14 days
Medical 1,2                            A+14
Medical 3                               A+44
ERC                                      A+28
PT Test                                A+21
MCC Interview                        A+14
Selection Board                      A+47
Offer                                    A+54 to 97
Enrolment                             A+75 to 188

3.	Realty (based on a sampling of three thousand enrolled Reg F files (Officers and NCMs).  Res F numbers were lower for obivious reasons:

Processed (CFAT, Medical 1,2, Medical 3, ERC, PT Test, and MCC Interview):

25% < 77 days
50% <129 days
75% <224 days
10% >1 year

From Selection board to offer to enrolment:

25% <42 days
50% <65 days
75% <120 days
3% >300 days

4.	Some differences can be attributed to non-standardized processing and improper inputting of completion dates into the recruiting information management system (a big problem with garbage in and garbage out). 

5.	Overview of all enrolled Reg F and Res F files from CFAT to enrolment:

3% are enrolled in less than 30 days
32% are enrolled  between 31 and 90 days
36% are enrolled between 91 and 180 days
24 % are enrolled between 6 and 12 months
5% take more than 12 months to be enrolled.

6.	Current initiatives to alleviate wait times and hopefully applicant frustrations:

Processing Standardization:
-Applications will only be accepted when the candidate has provided all relevant documentation.
-Aim to complete the testing, medical, interview and fitness testing within 2-3 visits to CFRC/Ds.
-Standardized the use of processing priority process to reduce the number of applicants in processing and in selection who don't stand a chance of getting the trade that they want.  Remember my previous posts about how we assess each application for it's competitiveness for the trade you are applying for against the number of positions available for that trade?

7.	So are we doing great?, not really but are we doing as horrible as some people would have you believe?, no.  Can we do better?  Of course we can.  I look forward to answering the many questions that this thread will certainly generate. Cheers.


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## armyrules (8 Apr 2005)

Kincanucks,
I know that you give good advice so I hope you can help. I handed in my apps on 03-02-05 and I called the recruiting center about 3 weeks ago and the sargeant that in charge of my applications was sick that day so I spoke to a different recruiter and he said that there is a lag in the process because of the RMC applications so he said that I would be able to do my tests in April. I haven't recieved a phine call so do you think that I should call them? I don't want to become a painin the ass though please help!!


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## Thirstyson (8 Apr 2005)

Thanks for the stats kincanucks. I was one of those 4000+ and got in what seems like a very average 6 months. CFRC was upfront with the wait times from the start and they were accurate.

The only thing that could of sped up my DEO file was more courses and selection boards for Officers, bureaucracy didn't really stall me at all. I think adding a starting date or two at St-Jean for OCdt's could help (just 3 a year right now).


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## kincanucks (8 Apr 2005)

armyrules said:
			
		

> Kincanucks,
> I know that you give good advice so I hope you can help. I handed in my apps on 03-02-05 and I called the recruiting center about 3 weeks ago and the sargeant that in charge of my applications was sick that day so I spoke to a different recruiter and he said that there is a lag in the process because of the RMC applications so he said that I would be able to do my tests in April. I haven't recieved a phine call so do you think that I should call them? I don't want to become a painin the *** though please help!!



Certainly give them another call and they should be able to give you a more approximate time when you can expect to be booked.


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## armyrules (8 Apr 2005)

Thanks kincanucks I wanted to ask you cause you've helped me in the past with questions. So like they say if "it ain't broke don't try to fix it" Thanks again


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## Meridian (8 Apr 2005)

kin/thirstyson:

from my reading, it would appear that as mentioned in other threads, the biggest issue is one of the interrelation of CFRETS and CFRG (if the acronyms are wrong, my appologies, thats what I remember them as).

Basically.. noone has funding to do the things they want to do. (Side note, "military budget"... does this also include all the salaries for the civilians at DND.. and thus really its the Departmental budget, and not the military budget?)

Kincanucks: Would computerization, such as having an applicant walk in, fill out online forms (with the requisite signature (could even be digitally processed, those are cheap nowadays), the form adiditionally updated with the recruiter, sent over the med, with it all digitally done (with appropriate security, etc)....   Is part of the problem the huge paper trail? Would technology be a good fix for a lot of the bureaucratic slowness?   How does a file get from CFRC to Borden?

I agree, however, that the biggest issue is training spots...  3 courses a year is not a lot of people....  but then, is training actually meeting the demand? Are we turning out the numbers we need to?  What I mean by this is, if we had an unlimited training budget.... would we be hiring that many more people on a constant basis, or woul dit just be a quick catchup period and then we'd be slow recruiting again, but this time because effective strength would be up?


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## kincanucks (8 Apr 2005)

_Kincanucks: Would computerization, such as having an applicant walk in, fill out online forms (with the requisite signature (could even be digitally processed, those are cheap nowadays), the form adiditionally updated with the recruiter, sent over the med, with it all digitally done (with appropriate security, etc)....   Is part of the problem the huge paper trail? Would technology be a good fix for a lot of the bureaucratic slowness?   How does a file get from CFRC to Borden?_

Applicants have the option to fill out the application forms on line now but that isn't the only form required.  We have tried to go paperless for the last three years but every time we get close someone whines that it is hard to assess officer files electronically and they must have a paper copy.  NCM files are not sent anywhere.  We have improved so much electronically in the last couple of years and it is getting better.  As for med files they are sent to Borden via courier and the med world is so paranoid about patient confidentiality that they have vehemently resisting any attempts to send med files electronically.

Recruit training is turning out the required numbers.  It is the trade's schools that are not handling the demand.


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## Pea (8 Apr 2005)

This probably isn't the right place to ask my question, but I'll ask anyway and hope someone can help me.
What is the average amount of time for a medical to be sent to Borden and passed?
Thanks in advance for any help.


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## kincanucks (8 Apr 2005)

Card_11 said:
			
		

> This probably isn't the right place to ask my question, but I'll ask anyway and hope someone can help me.
> What is the average amount of time for a medical to be sent to Borden and passed?
> Thanks in advance for any help.



For a clean medical 4-6 weeks.  For issues 4 weeks-????


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## I_am_John_Galt (8 Apr 2005)

Would it make sense to have some of the information online?

For instance, new applicants could be given a name (s/n?) and password for a secure website once they passed their CFAT: information on the website might include a "checklist" indicating what information was missing or incomplete as well as dates for testing, selection boards, etc.  (might be particularly effective if testing dates are standardized: recruit would see that they have to get docs in by X date to get in Y testing date) ... maybe even allow recruits to sign up for whatever testing or interview dates/times online ... could include an "expected completetion date" for things like medical files (_edit: as in the posts immediately preceeeding this!_), VFS, etc.

I suggest this because I found myself repeatedly calling the CFRC (and waiting for return calls) asking tedious questions like "did you get this yet," "when do we expect this to happen," etc., etc. which I suspect would be quite time-consuming (when multiplied by the number of applicants).  It also seemed that sometimes it would take 2 or 3 missed voice-mails to get a '2-second answer'.

Just thinking that if some of the simpler stuff could be "automated" (i.e., self-serve) it would free-up the staff for the more complicated things.

My $0.02 ...


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## kincanucks (8 Apr 2005)

I_am_John_Galt said:
			
		

> Would it make sense to have some of the information online?
> 
> For instance, new applicants could be given a name (s/n?) and password for a secure website once they passed their CFAT: information on the website might include a "checklist" indicating what information was missing or incomplete as well as dates for testing, selection boards, etc.   (might be particularly effective if testing dates are standardized: recruit would see that they have to get docs in by X date to get in Y testing date) ... maybe even allow recruits to sign up for whatever testing or interview dates/times online ... could include an "expected completetion date" for things like medical files (_edit: as in the posts immediately preceeeding this!_), VFS, etc.
> 
> ...



E-Recruiting is a project that is being worked on.


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## Michael OLeary (8 Apr 2005)

kincanucks, thank you for presenting the stats. I was wondering if you could clarify a few points to satisfy my curiosity.

If 10% of applicants take more than a year to be processed (CFAT, Medical 1,2, Medical 3, ERC, PT Test, and MCC Interview), then how is is that only 5% take more than a year to be enrolled?

What is the maximum length of time between "Processed" and "Selection board"? I assume processing can be year-round, but selection boards wouldn't be continuous. This 'gap' would add to the "processed" and "selection board to offer to enrolment" durations for a total time between initiating an application and enrolment.

For Reserve files, does the clock start ticking when a unit delivers a complete applicant file, or only after the CFRC enters the file data into the Recruiting Information Management System? There could be a delay here as system priorities shift between Reg and Res recruiting initiatives and critical timings (like RMC enrolments).


Thank you for you attention to these questions.


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## kincanucks (8 Apr 2005)

_If 10% of applicants take more than a year to be processed (CFAT, Medical 1,2, Medical 3, ERC, PT Test, and MCC Interview), then how is is that only 5% take more than a year to be enrolled?_  The first number was from a sampling of files and the second is from the total number of files enrolled.

_What is the maximum length of time between "Processed" and "Selection board"? I assume processing can be year-round, but selection boards wouldn't be continuous. This 'gap' would add to the "processed" and "selection board to offer to enrolment" durations for a total time between initiating an application and enrolment._  That would vary for different entry plans.  NCM could be up to a month, DEO and ROTP up to six months.  That is one of the issues we are looking at too: is whether to spread selection out more to lower wait times from processed to selection board.

_For Reserve files, does the clock start ticking when a unit delivers a complete applicant file, or only after the CFRC enters the file data into the Recruiting Information Management System? There could be a delay here as system priorities shift between Reg and Res recruiting initiatives and critical timings (like RMC enrolments)_   The clock starts ticking once the file is entered into the system.   Regardless of priorities applicant is entered into the system fairly rapid with maybe a week delay as the longest.


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## patrick666 (8 Apr 2005)

No questions, just wanted to thank Kincanucks for his help yet again. Cheers, brother!


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## Jordan411 (8 Apr 2005)

I too would like to thank kincanucks for the information.   It puts a realistic view on how long my process will actually take.


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## I_am_John_Galt (8 Apr 2005)

kincanucks said:
			
		

> E-Recruiting is a project that is being worked on.



Good to hear!!!  I'll stop patting myself on the back for the brilliant suggestion ...

Many thanks!


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## PatrickM (8 Apr 2005)

I always knew I was more an exception than the rule when I enrolled in terms of processing time, but I never really understood why.  I walked in the documentation complete to begin enrollment process at CFRC Ottawa in late May 2002.  The following week I was invited to do the aptitude test, interview, medical examination, and physical testing all in one day.  There was a question about visual acuity (my eyes aren't great to begin with, and my eyeglasses prescription at the time was out of date as well).  So on my own time I got an eye exam completed, which CFRC didn't trust.  I was referred to a doctor of their choosing for another eye exam, which I passed with comparable results.  (Oh how I remember the pain of driving home on a motorcycle on a sunny day with no sunglasses and pupils paralyzed at maximum dilation!!  This was all done in the space of about another week.  Then my forms went to Borden for medical review as per standard and was told 4-6 weeks.  I didn't understand that then, and I don't now.  I was applying to the 11Fd Regt in Guelph from CFRC Ottawa (was moving to attend school in Guelph anyways) so I was in close contact with the Recruiting O at the unit through the whole process.  He may have expedited the process in some way, I don't really know how but I know the medical took less than two weeks from the time it left for Borden to the time I got the call to come down and swear in, but I was in Guelph and sworn in on 21st June.  Total time from opening file was less than a month if I recall correctly.  My question to kincanucks (or anyone else who knows), is that a) why does initial processing take as long as it does in some cases, where the candidate is good to go in all respects and qualified; and b) what takes 6 weeks in Borden when the original medical exam took  1/2 an hour?  And how did mine get checked off earlier than that if it DOES take 6 weeks?


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## kincanucks (8 Apr 2005)

PatrickM said:
			
		

> I always knew I was more an exception than the rule when I enrolled in terms of processing time, but I never really understood why.   I walked in the documentation complete to begin enrollment process at CFRC Ottawa in late May 2002.   The following week I was invited to do the aptitude test, interview, medical examination, and physical testing all in one day.   There was a question about visual acuity (my eyes aren't great to begin with, and my eyeglasses prescription at the time was out of date as well).   So on my own time I got an eye exam completed, which CFRC didn't trust.   I was referred to a doctor of their choosing for another eye exam, which I passed with comparable results.   (Oh how I remember the pain of driving home on a motorcycle on a sunny day with no sunglasses and pupils paralyzed at maximum dilation!!   This was all done in the space of about another week.   Then my forms went to Borden for medical review as per standard and was told 4-6 weeks.   I didn't understand that then, and I don't now.   I was applying to the 11Fd Regt in Guelph from CFRC Ottawa (was moving to attend school in Guelph anyways) so I was in close contact with the Recruiting O at the unit through the whole process.   He may have expedited the process in some way, I don't really know how but I know the medical took less than two weeks from the time it left for Borden to the time I got the call to come down and swear in, but I was in Guelph and sworn in on 21st June.   Total time from opening file was less than a month if I recall correctly.   My question to kincanucks (or anyone else who knows), is that a) why does initial processing take as long as it does in some cases, where the candidate is good to go in all respects and qualified; and b) what takes 6 weeks in Borden when the original medical exam took   1/2 an hour?   And how did mine get checked off earlier than that if it DOES take 6 weeks?



If I am to understand your question, why does it take so long in Borden?  The answer:  thousands and thousands of medical files and three people to review them.  Some files do luck out and done faster.  The pile fell over and when they straighten it out yours was now on top?


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## Infanteer (8 Apr 2005)

How come only three people?


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## kincanucks (8 Apr 2005)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> How come only three people?



Three people what?

Sorry just realized what your were asking.  There are now five people working there but that is all the medical branch will assign to CFRG.


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## Meridian (8 Apr 2005)

Has Med Branch explained why they can only afford that many? Are these uniformed pers or could civilians do the same job (perhaps you dont know personally, Kincancucks, but if any med pers around here do know...)

Also.. if this is just a "well we dont think recruiting is a high enough priority for us" for the Med Branch... is that not what Senior Leadership is for? Or is this just all branches doing what they can to support each other and keep afloat?


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## kincanucks (8 Apr 2005)

Meridian said:
			
		

> Has Med Branch explained why they can only afford that many? Are these uniformed pers or could civilians do the same job (perhaps you dont know personally, Kincancucks, but if any med pers around here do know...)
> 
> Also.. if this is just a "well we dont think recruiting is a high enough priority for us" for the Med Branch... is that not what Senior Leadership is for? Or is this just all branches doing what they can to support each other and keep afloat?



Resources are tight all over.  Even the Med Tech that works for me is actually posted to the base hospital and not to recruiting.


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## Copper_Sunrise (8 Apr 2005)

kincanucks said:
			
		

> As for med files they are sent to Borden via courier and the med world is so paranoid about patient confidentiality that they have vehemently resisting any attempts to send med files electronically.



Next time someone raises that point get them to call me and I will personally tell them couriers are NOT secure. I was lucky, I got my med file back. There are a few others just sitting around wondering what's taking so long (if your med file is taking awhile don't be paranoid this is a VERY low percentage). How much worse could electronic be? Couriers (Canada Post) have already shown to me they are not 100% reliable.


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## PatrickM (9 Apr 2005)

Copper_ said:
			
		

> Next time someone raises that point get them to call me and I will personally tell them couriers are NOT secure. I was lucky, I got my med file back. There are a few others just sitting around wondering what's taking so long (if your med file is taking awhile don't be paranoid this is a VERY low percentage). How much worse could electronic be? Couriers (Canada Post) have already shown to me they are not 100% reliable.



No kidding.  It's scary how many troops in our regiment have been screwed out of component transfers for months on end because 'my medical file got lost'.
Which leads to next questions: A)What does a Med Tech need to do/examine on a recruit's medical file that couldn't have been done by the medical examiner at the CFRC?  B)  Since it's obvious that some of these files ARE getting lost somewhere in the transfer from CFRC's to Borden, would it not be more cost effective and greatly reduce processing times to have a Med Tech present AT major CFRCs instead of concentrated in Borden to go over medical files at the source?


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## kincanucks (9 Apr 2005)

PatrickM said:
			
		

> No kidding.   It's scary how many troops in our regiment have been screwed out of component transfers for months on end because 'my medical file got lost'.
> Which leads to next questions: A)What does a Med Tech need to do/examine on a recruit's medical file that couldn't have been done by the medical examiner at the CFRC?   B)   Since it's obvious that some of these files ARE getting lost somewhere in the transfer from CFRC's to Borden, would it not be more cost effective and greatly reduce processing times to have a Med Tech present AT major CFRCs instead of concentrated in Borden to go over medical files at the source?



Med Technicians ARE employed at all CFRC/Ds and you certainly wouldn't want a Medical Examiner working at a CFRC/D because they only look after dead people.  Copper has brought up one instance where some mail was stolen and this reportedly involved his medical file.  It is not obvious that medical files are getting lost because they aren't being lost.

_would it not be more cost effective and greatly reduce processing times to have a Med Tech present AT major CFRCs instead of concentrated in Borden to go over medical files at the source?_

The medical files have to be reviewed in Borden by a Medical Officer and Senior Med Techs/Physician Assistants because Sergeant Medical Technicians do the medicals at the CFRC/Ds.

_It's scary how many troops in our regiment have been screwed out of component transfers for months on end because 'my medical file got lost'._

What a load of crap.


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## ReadyAyeReady (9 Apr 2005)

Kincanucks,

Thanks for that...you are an asset to this website!


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## Copper_Sunrise (9 Apr 2005)

kincanucks said:
			
		

> Copper has brought up one instance where some mail was stolen and this reportedly involved his medical file.   It is not obvious that medical files are getting lost because they aren't being lost.



Ya I probably should have made my point a little better. All I was trying to say was that the current system of couriers (Canada Post) isn't completely confidential or secure. If the CF started using electronic transmissions or some sort of internal mail would this work better?

My case, as far as I know, has been exclusive to my recruitng centre and only involved a few medical files. The only concern is, if it can happen at one CFRC it can happen at others.


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## PatrickM (9 Apr 2005)

kincanucks said:
			
		

> Med Technicians ARE employed at all CFRC/Ds and you certainly wouldn't want a Medical Examiner working at a CFRC/D because they only look after dead people.   Copper has brought up one instance where some mail was stolen and this reportedly involved his medical file.   It is not obvious that medical files are getting lost because they aren't being lost.
> 
> _would it not be more cost effective and greatly reduce processing times to have a Med Tech present AT major CFRCs instead of concentrated in Borden to go over medical files at the source?_
> 
> ...



kincanucks, thanks for clairification on how the medical system works in regards to recruiting, it's obvious my knowledge about such things is pretty low

however, i'm sticking to my guns on the lost medicals thing.  Two out of the last three troops to component transfer or attempt it were told that their medical file had been lost and that part would have to be done over again.  If you don't believe me I can pm you with their names/ranks and you can check it out yourself if you have access (I don't really know how confidentiality would apply in this situation).


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## kincanucks (9 Apr 2005)

_however, i'm sticking to my guns on the lost medicals thing.  Two out of the last three troops to component transfer or attempt it were told that their medical file had been lost and that part would have to be done over again.  If you don't believe me I can pm you with their names/ranks and you can check it out yourself if you have access (I don't really know how confidentiality would apply in this situation)._

Or

_It's scary how many troops in our regiment have been screwed out of component transfers for months on end because 'my medical file got lost'._

Big difference and how were the med files lost?  After their component transfer medicals or after their original enrolment?

If after their component transfer medical then yes someone in the recruiting system screwed but if they were lost after their original enrolment then the unit screwed up.

The system is definitely not perfect but remember there are two separate entities to the recruiting processing: the administrative side and the medical side.  The medical definitely does not want to integrate with the administrative side for fear of losing patient confidentiality.  Will this be rectified in the future?  One can only hope.  However, the lost of medical files in recruiting is a very rare occurrence and not a custom.


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## MdB (12 Apr 2005)

First of all, thanks for these figures. Helps understanding what CFRC/D tries to do and what they are faced with.



			
				kincanucks said:
			
		

> 2.	What would be ideal for processing times:
> 
> A=complete application received (med docs and prior service records received if applicable).
> 
> ...



Ok, I speak only of what I know here. For CFRC Montreal, the track is: CFAT, PT Test, MCC Interview, Medicals and ERC. Don't know how they can manage in any way being able to schedule an interview within A+14. CFAT and PT test delays are accurate in that CFAT is in group and not depending on applicant choices, same for all. PT test is not held at CFRC, but at nearby Nautilus Plus and CFB Montreal (or whatever they call it, in the east part of Montreal). As far as I know, they don't do batch test (CFAT, PT, Medical and interview) for those living in Montreal. People outside of Montreal will rather go to other medium cities CFRCs, I really don't know how they can stick to these processing objectives as there was a month of delay for interview with MCC. For the rest, can't judge, but seems quite accurate for CFRC Montreal.



			
				kincanucks said:
			
		

> 3.	Realty (based on a sampling of three thousand enrolled Reg F files (Officers and NCMs).   Res F numbers were lower for obivious reasons:
> 
> Processed (CFAT, Medical 1,2, Medical 3, ERC, PT Test, and MCC Interview):
> 
> ...



Is it me or 25+50+75+3=153% ? The numbers are cumulative rather than exclusive. But, now, how you end up with 100% of applicants? You have three chunks of 25%, totalizing 75%, but only 10% and 3% for the rest, where are the other 15% and 22% ?


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## danielbouchard (12 Apr 2005)

Thanks for all kincanucks , it is always best the source of information for the recruits!!

 go to recruting office hihihi.


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## Thirstyson (12 Apr 2005)

MdB said:
			
		

> Is it me or 25+50+75+3=153% ?



25% <42 days
50% <65 days
75% <120 days  <----- up to here 75% are accounted for
Here 22% are between 120 and 300 days, this leaves:            
3% *>*300 days


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## kincanucks (12 Apr 2005)

I am only repeating the numbers given to me by higher and I am as statistically challenged as most so your guess is as good as mine.


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## MdB (12 Apr 2005)

Thirstyson said:
			
		

> 25% <42 days
> 50% <65 days
> 75% <120 days   <----- up to here 75% are accounted for
> Here 22% are between 120 and 300 days, this leaves:
> 3% *>*300 days



Duh... this is a mind trick. Should have figured this out... ???


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## Commitment217 (17 May 2006)

Well I've completed everything in the recruiting process from CFAT, medical, and physical and passed it all. That was two weeks ago. They said they would phone me as soon as they get my file.

Anyways my friend who is also in the reserves as infantry told me that I should phone back very often to see how my file is doing because he said that they won't phone me. I called back two times and both times they said that my file wasn't ready yet and there are a lot of paper work to go through before my file is completed and sent off to the place where I'll be working at.

I'm gonna be joining the 25th service battalion and they told me that Supply Technician is in high demand for the next six months, so thats the trade I went for.

Anyone have an ideal how long it usually takes for them to send your file to the place that your gonna work at? Also should I listen to my friend and keep phoning back about once every week or just wait it out for a phone call?

Thanks for any help guys.


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## kincanucks (17 May 2006)

Commitment217 said:
			
		

> Well I've completed everything in the recruiting process from CFAT, medical, and physical and passed it all. That was two weeks ago. They said they would phone me as soon as they get my file.
> 
> Anyways my friend who is also in the reserves as infantry told me that I should phone back very often to see how my file is doing because he said that they won't phone me. I called back two times and both times they said that my file wasn't ready yet and there are a lot of paper work to go through before my file is completed and sent off to the place where I'll be working at.
> 
> ...



Anywhere else you want to post this?  Call the reserve unit that you have applied to and ask them to check on your file.


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