# Veh.‘s for patrolling in BUA‘s?



## Foxhound (6 Feb 2004)

If any moderators think this belongs in the equipment forum, I appologize and please move accordingly.

With all the debate now raging in the news concerning the vehicles used for patrols, I was wondering what the troops thought.

F'rinstance, my first impression of the Iltis in '85 was, â Å“What a piece of crap.â ?  Keep in mind I was sitting in a Korean era Jeep and had just driven it flying off a sand dune in Ipperwash to land in front of the Iltis, which wouldn't start.  (It was raining, a bit.)

Has anybody seen the Iltis' replacement yet, the Gelaendewagens, and if so what was your first impression?

Additional point:  on ex. Medecine Man at BATUS, we were swapping lies with some Royal Anglians who had seen quite a lot of service in Northern Ireland and they just couldn't stop singing the praises of the Ferret Scout Car for patrolling in BUA's.  Their only complaint was that it was a little difficult to get into and out of, but a new design concept could fix that, no?

 http://www.geocities.com/josapi.geo/ferret.html 

D.D.C.O.S.U. & F.


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## slans (6 Feb 2004)

I think I saw One of these rusting ou in Gagetown in the grass museum. All Ive seen of the new Jeep was on the web.


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## Ex-Dragoon (6 Feb 2004)

There is article on the G-Wagon in this issue of the Maple Leaf.


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## Mountie (4 Apr 2005)

The new British Army Panther Multi-role Light Vehicle (MLV) is armoured against small arms and shell splinters and has a Protected Weapons System.  Seems it would be a could patrol vehicle.  It only carries 4 personnel, including the driver and the PWS operator though.


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## a_majoor (4 Apr 2005)

Not to rain on the parade, but the question needs more definition. What sort of patrolling are you doing, and under what conditions. Depending on the situation, you could argue for strolling down the street on foot to sending a combat team in Merkava and Achzarit armoured vehicles, or anything in between.

Take a look through this and the "Armoured" forum as well, you will see many arguments for and against almost every type of vehicle ever made......


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## Gayson (8 Apr 2005)

The army brought 2 of the none C&R G-wagons for us to check out at the fort.

I haven't driven one yet.


From what I have seen, the vehicle has some good ideas put into it, but still seems like to much of a civvie vehicle, I hope this is not the case with the C&R.

Its a 4 seater, the 2 seats in the back could be slid forward and sort of stowed away for more storage.  
Each seat has a reading light that can be moved around, upfront the light is red.  
There was a solar panal on the outside of the veh to help prevent the battery from dying.
The G-Wagon uses diesel
The closed nature of the veh made it seem to have little space for storage, the C&R will have a turret hatch up top, likely removing lots of storage space from the top.
The interior seems a lot like a civvie pattern veh.

Still, I am looking forward to playing with the C&R.  From what I got to see that one night, the G-wagon may not be that bad, but it is for sure not the greatest recce vehicle ever.


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## claybot (4 Aug 2005)

Patrolling in BUA's............ The Canadian Army used to have vehicles specifically designed for Urban OPs. Actually it was originally intended for police forces. It was a armoured vehicle with short barrel weapons from 7.62mm mg to 40mm grenade launcher.
Recently we shipped them to the Sudan.

Hopefully everyone has figured out that I'm referring to the AVGP Grizzley, mix that with the Cougar armed with Flechette rounds and HE and patrolling in urban ops.

Smaller than the LAV and Coyote makes them easier to drive on narrow streets.


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## Fishbone Jones (4 Aug 2005)

claybot said:
			
		

> Patrolling in BUA's............ The Canadian Army used to have vehicles specifically designed for Urban OPs. Actually it was originally intended for police forces.



It was not designed specifically for Urban Ops.



> It was a armoured vehicle with short barrel weapons from 7.62mm mg to 40mm grenade launcher.



It never in my experience mounted a 40mm GL. It had MBSGD's (Multi Barrelled Smoke Grenade Dischargers)



> Recently we shipped them to the Sudan.



THIS is correct.



> Hopefully everyone has figured out that I'm referring to the AVGP Grizzley, mix that with the Cougar armed with Flechette rounds and HE and patrolling in urban ops.



We never had flechette rounds for the Cougar. We had canister.



> Smaller than the LAV and Coyote makes them easier to drive on narrow streets.



Due to the single steering axle, the turning radius isn't that much different, nor is the height or width.


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## claybot (9 Aug 2005)

Just because the CF never mounted a 40mm GL doesn't mean you can't mount one. The turret was desgined for different weapons other than what we used. The newer upgraded turrets have even more capabilites inculding better NBCD and fire control.
My mistake on Flechette I meant cannister
The grizzley is smaller than the LAV and can go down narrower roads than the LAV can. If your worried about protection neither vehicle can stop an RPG.


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## Krazy-P (9 Aug 2005)

can the new g-wagons protect against ied's, etc??


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## paracowboy (9 Aug 2005)

Krazy-P said:
			
		

> can the new g-wagons protect against ied's, etc??


nothing can protect against IEDs. If I really want to kill you, I will find a way to defeat the armour in your vehicle. Look at the stacking of mines that was done in Bosnia. If necessary, I will blow up an entire block to take you out. There is no 100% solution here. Some armour sure, but the most effective method of keeping troops safe is by having those troops stay alert, and ready to put rounds down range fast.

As for the G-wagon, I dislike it intensely. There are several flaws with it that I won't go into on an open forum. It's not designed for combat, it's an SUV.


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## Kat Stevens (9 Aug 2005)

I have this recurring dream of 30 lbs of C4 strapped to the bottom of a manhole cover.  LAV 3 survivability, my lilly-white English A$$.

CHIMO,  Kat


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## a_majoor (9 Aug 2005)

I seem to recall a LAV or Bison hit an AT mine in Ethiopia and the crew got out just fine, although from the pictures the vehicle was a write off. It is quite true there are no perfect solutions: if they can't get you with 15kg of C4 under a manhole cover, the next time they will fill the entire sewer with C4 if that is what it takes. If you are working in such a high intensity environment, then the idea of "patrolling" is becoming a misnomer; you are advancing to contact and should consider a mechanized combat team as your means of approach.

In Low Intensity Conflict (or "Block 3" in the Canadian version), a vehicle which *resembles an SUV* is probably correct, since it doesn't look like a threat. Mowag Eagles, the British vehicle pictured earlier or the ubiquitous HMMVW are good choices, since they can be rapidly uparmoured and kitted out with weapons if the situation is going into "Block 2". Note this is much more difficult with a "real" SUV.

"Mud Recce" vehicles like the Otocar Cobra, the Dutch/German Fennk or the good old Ferret Scout car are difficult to catagorize. As recce vehicles, they have armour, sensors and firepower which other choices lack, but are too obviously AFVs for "Full Spectrum Ops" at the low end, and "too light to fight" if we are in Urban ops at the high end. Given the stipulations, an upgraded utility vehicle such as the HMMVW is prefferable.


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