# Are Armed Forces demonstration teams relevent?



## Armymedic (26 Aug 2005)

Interesting question. The commentator asks several good questions. Lets debate them here.

Here is the link and the entire editorial.

http://www.tbsource.com/Editorials/index.asp?cid=76820



> Editorials
> One Man's Opinion - Snowbirds
> Rick Smith
> Web Posted: 8/25/2005 1:58:50 PM
> ...


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## HollywoodHitman (26 Aug 2005)

I think they're a great part of a Country's identity. It's a way to showcase the talents of the military and provide the public with a window into what these teams do. 

The demo teams should however, in the case of the Snowbirds, use equipment that we use Operationally, which would be the CF18, rather than the much older and Operationally insignificant Tudor. 

Members of the military die. Fact. People die walking across the street. Theres alot to be said about that happening while someone is doing something they love. They know the risks, but they take them anyway. 

I think it would dishonour the memories of the team members who have died doing their jobs, to suddenly deem the existence of the Demo Teams, unneccessary. Discounting their importance and shutting them down would truly mean they died for nothing.


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## mover1 (26 Aug 2005)

Demo teams consist of volunteers.

No one is putting anyone at risk.


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## aesop081 (26 Aug 2005)

HollywoodHitman said:
			
		

> The demo teams should however, in the case of the Snowbirds, use equipment that we use Operationally, which would be the CF18, rather than the much older and Operationally insignificant Tudor.



The pilot on my crew is a former snowbird.   We were talking about this just yesterday.   The CF-188s deemed too costly to operate in the airshow role.   The fact that the tutor is relatively slow is the reson some of the maneouvres that they do can be done.   Even a change to the Hawk would bring significant changes to the team's routine.   The CF-188 also has the drawback of being a single seater.   The second seat of the Tutor is where the techs   ride from show to show.   IMHO, the snowbirds are better off with a quieter type than with a big and noisy fighter type.   I have seen the USAF Tunderbirds, the USN Blue Angels and the RAF Red Arrows as well and the smaller trainer types are much more enjoyable.   As those are less costly to operat we canh have teams of more aircraft which makes for a more impressive show.   The Blue angels have to travel with a USMC C-130 ( "fat albert") to carry their techs, i think the CAF would be hard pressed to do the same and the CF-188B's are required for other things than airshows.

As far as getting rid of the team, IMHO, that would be a grave error.   To me it is not only a recruitng tool/ PR tool but also something for CF pilots to aspire to.   The pilots i have spoken to that have been on the team describe it as the best flying of their career and they worked hard to get there.   The snowbirds are , IMHO, a powerful motivator for pilots to be the best at their game.   Alot of army guys deplore the loss of the CAR as leaving very little for young soldiers to strive for, lets not do the same to the airforce comunity.

My $0.02


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## mdh (26 Aug 2005)

> As far as getting rid of the team, IMHO, that would be a grave error.  To me it is not only a recruitng tool/ PR tool but also something for CF pilots to aspire to.



Aesop081 hits the nail on the head. The Snowbirds are probably the one PR tool that showcases the CF that the public recognizes and _relates to_ - I can't think of another equivalent with the exception of naval visits to cities. Predictably, we're seeing the usual Gradgrinds decrying the"dangers" involved with little consideration to the overarching benefits achieved by the team.  When you tally up the total hours flown by the team compared to the accident rate - I'm confident it would be a reasonable stat from a risk analysis point of view.  It seems some people just want to make the country into a bland, dull and safe place - why bother leaving the crib?

cheers, mdh


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## swanita (26 Aug 2005)

I agree with both mdh & aesop081. To some the Snowbirds & demo teams may seem useless but they get the military into the public eye showcasing some of their talents. It would be a shame to see them go.


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## Armymedic (26 Aug 2005)

Lets open this up to things like the:

Skyhawks,
Army and Navy Gun race teams, and
LDSH Riding Troop.

All teams with no real operational requirement, but who show the face of the CF to the public.


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## paracowboy (26 Aug 2005)

Armymedic said:
			
		

> but who show the face of the CF to the public.


and therein, a good thing. The more they see us, the better. It's harder for them to continue to elect those who squander us if they make some real connections to us. We should go door to door and introduce ourselves across the nation.
"Hello, my name is Bill, and I'll be your infantryman today. Please tell the gov't to give us more money."


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## Lima_Oscar (26 Aug 2005)

My 2 cents:

I believe that the relevance of demonstration teams does not lie in the demonstration itself but the process of training those teams.   Yes, it is a demonstration to our citizens and to the world that we have a credible and capable forces. Not only does it demonstrate that we as a country has excellent and talented individuals that can perform extordinary acts; it is also a demonstration of our capacity of service and support and technical expertise (i.e. our resource). However in addition to the demonstration, the real purpose (in my opinion) is to motivate the forces as a whole to strive for perfection and excellence.   Having demonstration teams is one of the tools to inspire and motivate us to be best as what we do. The existence of demonstration teams can act as a venue for us to train to be the best.

*Edit: Spelling


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## paracowboy (26 Aug 2005)

*AND* it's a sweet scam that we can all aspire to!


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## Cloud Cover (26 Aug 2005)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> "Hello, my name is Bill, and I'll be your infantryman today. Please tell the gov't to give us more money."



Well Bill, it's nice to meet you. I'm Mrs. Lipshitz. Is that an M72 LAW in your pants or are you just happy to see me?   Well now, aren't you the healthy young specimen? What? Of course I'll buy some apples from you, $5 worth just like the air cadets. What? No, I will not bobfor them? What? Wash your mouth, young man and what are you doing with that fork and cell phone? That's disgusting!!
Thank you, run along now and go scare the shit out of my neighbour. Bye now. Mind the grass now, and take my hedge out of your helmet. Toodles. 

That Bill, he such a nice infantryman. I think I'll write a letter to his boss to give him some more money.


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## paracowboy (27 Aug 2005)

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> Well Bill, it's nice to meet you. I'm Mrs. Lipshitz. Is that an M72 LAW in your pants or are you just happy to see me?   Well now, aren't you the healthy young specimen? What? Of course I'll buy some apples from you, $5 worth just like the air cadets. What? No, I will not bobfor them? What? Wash your mouth, young man and what are you doing with that fork and cell phone? That's disgusting!!
> Thank you, run along now and go scare the crap out of my neighbour. Bye now. Mind the grass now, and take my hedge out of your helmet. Toodles.
> 
> That Bill, he such a nice infantryman. I think I'll write a letter to his boss to give him some more money.


Funniest. Post. Ever.


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## Gunner98 (27 Aug 2005)

RCMP Musical Ride, Golden Helmets - OPP

With rising gas prices you don't hear a call for the demise of these two demo teams?

Going door to door or city to city - fighting fires, floods or digging out after a snowstorm or windstorm.

Perhaps we could sell commercial advertising attached to banners behind the Snowbirds or slapped on the sides of the Sea King.  It works for NASCAR and the Alcohol and Tobacco companies and they result in more deaths than the wonderful Snowbirds or Skyhawks.


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## Spr.Earl (27 Aug 2005)

Can see it now "This Bridge Blown by 3 Tp,1 C.E.R." on a big ribbon as she goes sky high. ;D


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## paracowboy (27 Aug 2005)

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> Can see it now "This Bridge Blown by 3 Tp,1 C.E.R." on a big ribbon as she goes sky high.


I'd pay to see that! That's just good family entertainment, right there.


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## c4th (27 Aug 2005)

Gunner98 said:
			
		

> RCMP Musical Ride, Golden Helmets - OPP
> 
> With rising gas prices you don't hear a call for the demise of these two demo teams?



Possibly the costs are offset by the declining prices for oats.  Equally perplexing:  Why there is there not a call to trade the horses in for the operationally relevant Crown Vics.  They would be much louder and faster.


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## Slim (27 Aug 2005)

On a side note

I know for a fact that the LdSH(RC) Mounted Troop does not receive any additioonal money for its activities from DND.

The money to keep it going is made through donatioons from the regt. accociation and tour bookings in the summer time.

As for demonstariaghtion teams in the CF. Disbanding any of them would be a serious mistake.

Also if you read the articles coming out of the mdia, its not DND that's "talking" about getting rid of anything, but the media doing what they do best...Stirring sh*t and hoping to sell more papers.

My hat is off to the Snowbirds...To the media I take off something else.

Slim


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## marlene (27 Aug 2005)

I agree with Slim. Hats off to the Snowbirds - as far as I can see the media is just trying to stir up trouble. I think the demo teams are very relevant. If it wasn't for the Snowbirds - sad but true - there's a good deal of Canadians that wouldn't even know we had a military. They're an integral part of the DND that create awareness at the very least and hopefully pride at best. 

merlane


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## FormerHorseGuard (27 Aug 2005)

i understand the views shared here but I think the Snowbirds do a great service to the CF, shows the talent and skill levels that  our pilots are capable of doing. 
The techs show another skill level , how well they can keep 60s vintage aircraft flying. But that  is no longer a skill level in the CF it is a trade level training, antique aircraft, QL18, they are the same course standards needed to maintain and fly  the SeaKIng, the SAR helicopters and the other aging aircraft in our fleet.

All joking aside i have been involved in airshows as person who went to watch and enjoy  the machines and the displays, as i got older I was working as an unpaid staff member. So i got to see behind the closed doors. Other airforces have always saidd give the Snowbirds a real sleek, up powered jet and they  would blow the socks off any other team flying. 

The CF 18 would be a good choice, sure it is more costly  to fly, they are mothballing how many  of them because they cannot afford the upgrades in electronics?  Take the mothballed fleet and give the Snowbirds  enough to equip the team, they  could put on a much better show. As for crew and techs who ride along in the jets now, use one of the  Canadian made prop planes, they use for training navigators or anothe aircraft available. 
I think the CF is owed the respect of flying and using at least 20 year old equipment vice the 40 plus year old relics they use now.


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## The Bread Guy (27 Aug 2005)

WRT the media, I have as much of an axe to grind as many here re:  media focus, bias and accuracy, but to be fair, a civilian with no idea about the military looking at the following facts in isolation might wonder the merits of keep the team around:

- 14 accidents since 1972; 
- 6 pilots killed; 
- 30 year old planes not (apparently) used anywhere else in the CF.  

Yes, they do high performance work.  Yes, there's high risk.  Yes, the accident rate may be pretty darned low compared to hours flown & envelope pushed.  Yes, they create a professional, visible, identifiable icon for the CF.  Still, I don't think it's unfair asking the question.

How's this for a solution without reinventing the wheel?

The Royal Aussie Air Force aerobatic team, the Roulettes, apparently went thru a series of equipment woes with various types of planes.  In 1989, they settled on using the Pilatus PC-9 trainer (which they already used for general flight training) for the demo team.  As for spares, they apparently painted EVERY trainer in the Air Force in the Roulettes colour scheme, so they can mix and match without too much fuss and on short notice.

Since we have Hawks in the system now, would it make sense to buy a few more, paint everybody in the same colour scheme and have a ready-made pool for the new, improved Snowbirds?

For more info.....

RAAF Roulettes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roulettes
Official Site
http://www.defence.gov.au/raaf/roulettes/

Pilatus PC-9
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilatus_PC-9
http://www.defence.gov.au/raaf/roulettes/aircraft.htm


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## Gunner98 (27 Aug 2005)

Snowbird Aircraft Replacement Proposal Aero's L159 Albatross
found at: http://www.sfu.ca/casr/mp-snowbird.htm


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## WogCpl (27 Aug 2005)

Ok, Time for me to get blasted. During my time in the military, the only time we go to the range is once a year to shoot enough ammo to qualify pwt2. yet here are bands (base rank of Sgt), and demo teams flying around the country promoting a military, that it seems few people want to join,spending a boat load of cash. I would love to see troops get more range time, or even get to fire the weapons we practice TOET's on every year during IBTS training. If s**tcanning demo teams and bands etc. does that then i am all for it. Unfortunately if they did do away with them, the money would probably go towards buying all the pointy heads in ottawa ergonomic chaise lounges to allow them to think better.


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## Gunner (27 Aug 2005)

FatwogCpl,

With comments like this, you are not seeing the forest for the trees.  

Gunner


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## aesop081 (27 Aug 2005)

FatwogCpl said:
			
		

> Ok, Time for me to get blasted. During my time in the military, the only time we go to the range is once a year to shoot enough ammo to qualify pwt2. yet here are bands (base rank of Sgt), and demo teams flying around the country promoting a military, that it seems few people want to join,spending a boat load of cash. I would love to see troops get more range time, or even get to fire the weapons we practice TOET's on every year during IBTS training. If s**tcanning demo teams and bands etc. does that then i am all for it. Unfortunately if they did do away with them, the money would probably go towards buying all the pointy heads in ottawa ergonomic chaise lounges to allow them to think better.





Personaly it gives me a "warm and fuzzy" that my pilot   is a former snowbird.   I know he is at the top of his game and that he can handle whatever our aircraft throws at him.  Guess there is TRAINING value in the snowbirds after all.  Its not just about you and your bullets.


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## Slim (27 Aug 2005)

> Ok, Time for me to get blasted.



With comments like that probably repeatedly.

Should we disband the JTF2 so that you and the rest of the reserve svc bn you belonged to can have an extra day on the range?


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## WogCpl (27 Aug 2005)

Ah, here we go. 
yes, me and the 456 wrenchbending coy would love that extra day on the range.  As far as mounted troop goes, are the horses ridden by civvie volunteers, or are they souldiers payed by the govt?


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## WogCpl (27 Aug 2005)

Sorry Slim, Couldn't resist that. On a serious note, Strat's Mounted troop IMHO go about the demo team thing the right way!!


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## WogCpl (27 Aug 2005)

aesop, it would give me a warm and fuzzy to see globemasters on the runway in trenton!


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## Inch (27 Aug 2005)

milnewstbay,

We don't own the Hawks, nor do we have technicians trained to fix them, Bombardier owns and maintains them under the NFTC contract. While I agree that getting Hawks for the Snowbirds is probably the best option, it certainly won't be cheap since we don't have any of our own in the system and getting them for the Snowbirds would be the equivalent of adding an entirely new airframe to the inventory.


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## aesop081 (27 Aug 2005)

FatwogCpl said:
			
		

> aesop, it would give me a warm and fuzzy to see globemasters on the runway in trenton!



Ah yes....i see what your argument is.

If we disband the snowbirds and save up the money...we could buy 1 C-17 in 20 years !!

WOW, you realy know how to think things trough.  Spending money on C-17s wont give you another day on the range either.  Give your head a shake.


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## WogCpl (27 Aug 2005)

Ah, sorry. forgot i was dealing with the Airforce that sees batteries as DC. If the snowbirds give you a better pilot, then all is good, but tell me, as a snow bird do you practice air to air combat or delivering CAS?


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## Gunner (27 Aug 2005)

> Ah, sorry. forgot i was dealing with the Airforce that sees batteries as DC. If the snowbirds give you a better pilot, then all is good, but tell me, as a snow bird do you practice air to air combat or delivering CAS?



And Jesus continued to weep....


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## WogCpl (28 Aug 2005)

I am sorry, gunner, if my chaise lounge comment offended you.


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## Inch (28 Aug 2005)

FatwogCpl said:
			
		

> Ah, sorry. forgot i was dealing with the Airforce that sees batteries as DC. If the snowbirds give you a better pilot, then all is good, but tell me, as a snow bird do you practice air to air combat or delivering CAS?



You don't know much about flying do you?

They don't practice BFM, ACM, or CAS, but they don't need to. The flying they do is precise and the experience they gain while with the team will carry over to their next posting. Good hands and feet are never a bad thing in the cockpit.


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## aesop081 (28 Aug 2005)

FatwogCpl said:
			
		

> Ah, sorry. forgot i was dealing with the Airforce that sees batteries as DC. If the snowbirds give you a better pilot, then all is good, but tell me, as a snow bird do you practice air to air combat or delivering CAS?



You just can't think past your own nose can you ?

Inch is right.


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## WogCpl (28 Aug 2005)

Inch, I know nothing about flying! And hey, like i said if it makes them a better pilot then thats cool. Do most pilots stay in to pass these skills on or go fly for a civie company....seriously!


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## WogCpl (28 Aug 2005)

aesop, ok you win inch is right! but your still a typical airforce pointyhead.
Inch, respect! thanks, your good to go! You are a typical rotory wing pilot!


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## Inch (28 Aug 2005)

FatwogCpl said:
			
		

> Inch, I know nothing about flying! And hey, like i said if it makes them a better pilot then thats cool. Do most pilots stay in to pass these skills on or go fly for a civie company....seriously!



Depends on the guy, some stay and some go. I don't have any exact numbers but there's a Snowbird pilot that's coming back to Sea Kings when he finishes his 3 year stint this fall, so some do stick around.


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## aesop081 (28 Aug 2005)

FatwogCpl said:
			
		

> still a typical airforce pointyhead.



considering i've only been in the airforce   about 2 years and that i was reg force combat engineer for 11 years, your comment doesnt mean much.


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## WogCpl (28 Aug 2005)

Ok, your just a typical pointy head then. After two years in the Airforce you know how much the budget of the Snowbirds is and how much a C17 costs. Impressive! Look, the forum was about weather or not demo teams are relevent, in a lot of ways i don't think they are. It's not just about my bullets, it's about money and resources being directed in a more beneficial way, for everyone. And i am not suggesting disbanding the most operational unit the CF has to accomplish that, nor am i talking about just the Snowbirds. Bands, the Skyhawks, etc.

Where or how would you guys use the extra cash? 

Hey, i thought this was a forum for discussion, i brought up a side you guys obviously did not want to hear. So I will drag my NCM butt out of here and keep letting you guys pat each other on the back and continue on with your "because we've always done it that way" attitudes.


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## aesop081 (28 Aug 2005)

FatwogCpl said:
			
		

> After two years in the Airforce you know how much the budget of the Snowbirds is and how much a C17 costs. Impressive!



Well thank you.   I knew those things before i OT to the airforce..........i did OPDPs and ITC and other things we call professional developement.   I'm also a private pilot so i have an avid interest in all things flying. I also know alot about the navy ( just lack naval experience) because i like to be a well rounded soldier.   Maybe if you did things like that you would not be a "fatwogcpl"......

but anyways, enough about you....back to your regularly schedule topic.




			
				FatwogCpl said:
			
		

> So I will drag my NCM butt out of here and keep letting you guys pat



I dont know what you point is with the NCM comment..........i'm an NCM too  :


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## George Wallace (28 Aug 2005)

FatwogCpl 

From some of your comments on this subject of demonstration teams, I am wondering what made you decide to join the military?   You seem to see no purpose to Drill and Ceremonial, nor to the requirements of Discipline.   These are all aspects of Military life and shown to the public in these "Demonstration Teams", be they the Riding Troop of the LdSH(RC), the Gun Run of 2 CMBG, the Snow Birds, or the Sky Hawks.   The Pomp and Pageantry of the NS Tattoo and numerous other Tattoos across the country also contribute to this display.   These are not, as some perceive, archaic practices, but the instilling of pride and discipline in one's military career building teamwork and character.   

The military is not a nine to five civie job (as some in the Purple Support Trades seem to think).


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## WogCpl (28 Aug 2005)

I agree, I watched the changing of the gaurd this summer and thought they did a very professional job, I've been to a few venues that had coyote survellience suites set up etc.
but by and large they are not full time demo teams, just regular troops showcasing their talent. i never said that i see no purpose in drill and cerimonial. 
As for what made me want to join? Being a soldier. just so happens i managed to get a trade out of the deal as well. Your right about some of us  css thinking that it is a nine to five, but some of us take soldiering seriously.


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## Slim (28 Aug 2005)

FatwogCpl said:
			
		

> I agree, I watched the changing of the gaurd this summer and thought they did a very professional job, I've been to a few venues that had coyote survellience suites set up etc.
> but by and large they are not full time demo teams, just regular troops showcasing their talent. i never said that i see no purpose in drill and cerimonial.
> As for what made me want to join? Being a soldier. just so happens i managed to get a trade out of the deal as well. Your right about some of us   css thinking that it is a nine to five, but some of us take soldiering seriously.



Part of what defines a country is tradition. All the things that are part of a countries history and are celebrated in modern day by doing things like, Starthcona SMT, the gun run and other such.

They all celerate who we are and should give our nation a bit of pride.

Would you and the others in your shop really be happy if it all went away?


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## WogCpl (28 Aug 2005)

no slim, if these things die completely we will lose some of our identity as a nation to some degree, but it is a discussion, and seems like it is becoming a little more civil.
like i said, the strats have the right idea! less cost to the CF but still a great image. The Snowbirds and Skyhawks have been thiilling people for years, and i don't like the idea of doing away with that, but what kind of financial savings to the CF would there be? 

Like i said if it is significant, what would you do with the money?


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## Slim (28 Aug 2005)

For the SnowBirds and the SkyHawks the training value present that is demanded of our soldiers and airment would be critical in time of conflict.

The SnowBrids may not be practicing CAS or Cap but what about ACM...A valuable skill wouldn't you say...?!

Or HALO for the skyhawks!

You can't start to de-activate these things without looking at all the angles...

Slim


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## Scoobie Newbie (28 Aug 2005)

As mentioned before these demonstrations teams and grandiose parades are the best recruiting tools we have at present.  So despite the cost of what it is to maintain and run these things it is beneficial for us in the CF to have them considering how understaffed we are.


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## ChopperHead (28 Aug 2005)

Yes we need the demo teams. I have been to alot of airshows and such and the biggest attractions are always the SnowBirds and the I cant rember the name but the parachute team. Alot of young kids are inspired by these demos and is one of the reasons they want to fly commercialy or in the military. I used to have posters of the SnowBirds in my room when I was younger what other other part of the military can claim that? none. Anyway the problem with the snowbirds just like alot of things in the military today is that they are very old and in my opion unsafe especial for the level of advanced flying that they perform. We need to invest and purchase some new aircraft for them maybe something like the T-50 (korean).


kyle.


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## WogCpl (28 Aug 2005)

Good point guys, and the para team is the Skyhawks.
Annual budget of the snowbirds..10 000 000
87 team members!
I really hate picking on them but thanks to google they are the easiest to find info on. Probably because they are so well known and loved. my fondest memory of childhood was the airborne tatoo in edmonton, machine guns going off etc. were they a professional demo team, no.
why not make the snowbirds a bi annual event?
A lot of military history in my family and some members have been on these demo teams so i do not go into this lightly.


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## Inch (28 Aug 2005)

The show wouldn't be nearly as good if it was only bi-annually. Those guys practice twice a day during the winter and 3 times a day for the month leading up to airshow season. 

$10 mil isn't a whole lot in the grand scheme of things, considering the amount of shows and number of hours they fly. The DND budget is $13 billion, $10 mil is peanuts. I'd rather see a kick ass airshow than fire off an extra 2 mags per year.


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## Kat Stevens (28 Aug 2005)

Perhaps that's because your or your buddies life doesn't depend on putting those 2 extra mags into the target.  

Kat


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## Inch (28 Aug 2005)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Perhaps that's because your or your buddies life doesn't depend on putting those 2 extra mags into the target.
> 
> Kat



No, my life depends on my flying proficiency and 1 more hour of flying isn't going to make me or break me. Hell, if we divided up that $10 mil across the board, I'd end up with and extra 40 mins of flying, woopee! That could be the difference between 300hrs and 300.6 hours. I'll take the Snowbirds over that.


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## WogCpl (28 Aug 2005)

Didn't want  to make this just about the Snowbirds. They were just one example i could get info on. What about Reg force CF Bands. They all hold a base rank of Sgt.their instruments cost a lot, travel expenses etc. And what function do they serve? is this not somthing that could willingly be done by reserves?
Not picking on them, just a topic for discussion.


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## Kat Stevens (28 Aug 2005)

Inch said:
			
		

> No, my life depends on my flying proficiency and 1 more hour of flying isn't going to make me or break me. heck, if we divided up that $10 mil across the board, I'd end up with and extra 40 mins of flying, woopee! That could be the difference between 300hrs and 300.6 hours. I'll take the Snowbirds over that.


I think you missed my point. Yours may not, but a few thousand combat arms guy's just might.  Different perspective is all


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## Gunner98 (28 Aug 2005)

Old news Woggie - ever tried a parade with canned music?

July 20, 1997

OTTAWA â â€œ The Honourable Art Eggleton, Minister of National Defence, announced today that the Canadian Forces will restructure the Canadian Forces Band Branch to create brass and reed bands to be located in Edmonton and Esquimalt, in addition to the current four bands located in Winnipeg, Ottawa, Valcartier, and Halifax.

After three years of operation within a reduced structure as a result of the 1994 federal budget, it became clear that the current band structure could not fulfill all of its obligations. In May, the senior Canadian Forces leadership concluded that six smaller bands across Canada would better meet the requirements of the Canadian Forces to provide an appropriate level of musical services.


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## Gunner98 (28 Aug 2005)

I think the CDS sums up this whole topic pretty well.

"Guardsmen" Rick Hillier and Daniel Gilbertâ â€known on any other day as the Chief of the Defence Staff (CDS) and the Canadian Forces Chief Warrant Officer (CWO) respectivelyâ â€paraded with the Old Guard on Parliament Hill. 

In fact, just moments before leaving Cartier Square Drill Hall for the Hill, General Hillier said he had chills down his spine. *Describing the Ceremonial Guard (CG) as a Canadian institution, encompassing teamwork, fitness, cohesion and leadership, he said it reflected superbly on the men and women in uniform*. "To be part of it, if only for one day," said Gen Hillier, "was phenomenal. I'm thrilled."


http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/Land_Force/English/6_1_1.asp?id=636


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## WogCpl (28 Aug 2005)

Yup, canned music su*ks.
Reserve bands do pretty well though.
Yup The CGG and the GGFG put on a good show, but i don't think there annual operating budget is 10 000 000.


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## George Wallace (28 Aug 2005)

I'm not up on the way Bandsmen are promoted, but I do know that there is a system in place.   Although it may seem to many that the Band is all Sgt or WO ranks, on closer inspection you will find Pte and Cpl ranks also.   They have a QL/Trades Qualification/DP or whatever in place to be promoted, like all trades in the Forces.   They have to qualify on several instruments, and also read and compose, to differing degrees in their progression through the ranks.   They are Professional Musicians, who have chosen to serve in the CF.


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## Inch (28 Aug 2005)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> I think you missed my point. Yours may not, but a few thousand combat arms guy's just might.   Different perspective is all



I don't want to get in a pissing match here, but I have some very big doubts that 60 more rounds down range is really going to make a difference. I'll get back to you on how well I do on the range next week after a 5 year hiatus from the C7. I'm pretty sure I'll be able to hit the target and score fairly well.


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## WogCpl (28 Aug 2005)

Your right they do need a degree in music to join and it is considered equivalent to a 6A, so they are promoted to Sgt upon completion of their PLQ , usually 6 months to a year.


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## Kat Stevens (28 Aug 2005)

Good enough then.  Let's all only go to the range every 5 years, and hope against hope that we score fairly well


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## Sf2 (28 Aug 2005)

lets not get into a pissing match here.....

we all need the basic skills to do our job...whether that be 40 mins of hands and feet, or 60 more rounds down range.

And chopperwhatever your name is.....the Tutor is what makes the routine so special.  You think you can pack 9 hornets into a formation and still here the 80's David Foster music?  No way dude.


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## Gunner98 (28 Aug 2005)

Many bases, like Petawawa, have a Pipe Major and Drum Instrucor and the remainder of the band is made of volunteers from both military and civilian life.  The 2nd Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group Pipes and Drums currently have 19 members: a Drum Major, eleven pipers, eight drummers and an additional two members who help form a separate Ceilidh band. These all fall under the direction of the Pipe Major, Warrant Officer Colin Clansey, and the Drum Instructor, Corporal John Pakenham. The Band consists of regular force army musicians and armed forces personnel detailed from their respective units, augmented by military and civilian volunteers.

Reducing the CF Bands much below the 6 would not save a lot of money.  Reducing the funding from 40+ to 6 and closing the school saved a lot back in 1997.

Recruiting Info:
Since the closure of the Canadian Forces School of Music in 1994, the Canadian Forces have been enrolling skilled musicians only. *Competitions are held periodically* for available positions in the six Regular Force bands. In the past, successful applicants have typically been experienced, professional musicians, *many of them having a degree in Music Performance.* This remains the standard expected of applicants today.


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## WogCpl (28 Aug 2005)

Point taken.


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## ChopperHead (28 Aug 2005)

short final said:
			
		

> And chopperwhatever your name is.....the Tutor is what makes the routine so special.   You think you can pack 9 hornets into a formation and still here the 80's David Foster music?   No way dude.





Relax "dude" the T-50 is not a hornet but whatever thats not the point. The point was that the Tutors are getting very old and to the end of life and need to be replaced. Sure they still fly but so do the SeaKings only they require alot of maintence and sometimes fall out of the sky well lets not wait untill the Tuturs start falling out of the sky and people are dying before they get replaced. Maybe the T-50 isnt a good choice I don't know It was just a sugestion. You dont think so? well lets here something better then.



Kyle


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## Inch (28 Aug 2005)

ChopperHead said:
			
		

> Relax "dude" the T-50 is not a hornet but whatever thats not the point. The point was that the Tutors are getting very old and to the end of life and need to be replaced. Sure they still fly but so do the SeaKings only they require alot of maintence and sometimes fall out of the sky well lets not wait untill the Tuturs start falling out of the sky and people are dying before they get replaced. Maybe the T-50 isnt a good choice I don't know It was just a sugestion. You dont think so? well lets here something better then.
> 
> Kyle



Easy there buddy, I know I asked this question already in this thread, but...... You don't know a lot about flying do you?

Aircraft do not fall out of the sky, and a little FYI, the Sea King you're thinking of that crashed on the Iroquois, crashed due to a compressor stall on a brand new engine. One more little tidbit for you, Sea Kings are currently holding SAR Standby because the brand new Cormorants are grounded yet again for tail rotor problems.  So newer isn't always better, especially if it doesn't work like it's supposed to.


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## Gunner (29 Aug 2005)

> Old news Woggie - ever tried a parade with canned music?



Many times with the RCA BSL.....


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## enfield (29 Aug 2005)

I would argue that the CF needs to drastically raise the profile of its Demo Teams, and that this is something that the Army especially is lacking in. Whatever the cost, the benefit in PR, recruiting, and general awareness is more than worth it.

An Army Drill Team, or Regimental Drill Teams, of the calibre of the USMC Silent Drill Team for example, would be a huge PR tool for the military and portray the military as we want it - disciplined, professional, dedicated, and impressive. I've seen many foreign drill teams at the Halifax Tattoo, and all of them were stunning and impressive, especially to civilians. A company sized Guard could tour the country, perhaps for a few months a year, and do displays at festivals, public events, sporting events, etc - imagine the season opener Maple Leafs game opening with an RCR/Army drill show.

The CF seems to under-utilize Demo Teams in general - the Navy Gun Run, the LdSH Riding Troop, the parachute display team (who's name escapes me at the moment). I don't understand why the LdSH riding team doesn't have a higher profile - from what I've seen, they're certainly as good as the RCMP Musical Ride, but far less well known.

Personally, I've never found the Snowbirds that spectacular to watch - certainly amazing flying, but I was always more impressed by the big/noisy/earth shaking fighters flying low and fast. I know there are huge cost limitations to equipping them with CF-18s, as well as questions over the flying, but I think giving them CF-18s would change the perception of the CF and Air Force in the public eye. 

I don't want more bands. I don't want flying teams in geriatric training aircraft. I want Demo teams that clearly emphasize basic military values and the purpose and capabilities of the Forces.


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## ChopperHead (29 Aug 2005)

Inch...

Your right compared to you who I assume are a pilot ( I didn't check your profile ) I don't know much about flying but I do know enough. Lets not get technical on the vocabulary here when I say that the planes fall out of the sky I don't literally mean just drop I mean from technical problems like engine failure or whatever it may be and go down. I'm not gonna argue with you about this stuff because obviously you know more then I do but I mean the Tutors are getting old, one recently crashed because of an engine failure I believe, I don't know the circumstances behind it but regardless I think they need to be replaced before any other problems arise from ageing equipment being used in such advanced maneuvers. Just don't you think that if the snowbirds are out there showing Canada and the rest of the world our the best the airforce has to offer they should be equipt with the best possible modern aircraft not planes that were built back in late 60's.


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## WannaBeFlyer (29 Aug 2005)

Shortfinal, your post was priceless....

_And chopperwhatever your name is.....the Tutor is what makes the routine so special.  You think you can pack 9 hornets into a formation and still here the 80's David Foster music?  No way dude._

Remove the demo teams? How else are you going to draw new recruits!?  Posters above the urinals on campus that do little to make someone want to visit the CFRC? 

The CF is invisible. Sorry but it is a fact. How many exceptional people go to the CFRC wanting to be a pilot because they saw the Snowbirds, find out they don't meet the requirements to become a pilot and end up taking another trade just to be in the CF. How many people want to jump out of a Buffalo on Canada Day as a member of the SkyHawks and head off to CFRC? It starts there. Not for all but perhaps those who may not have considered a career in the CF otherwise.

Personally, I think the CF is in deep when it comes to recruiting would-be's with the current exciting demo teams in place.  Remove those advertising venues and I have no idea  how you are going to attract newbee's to the CFRC.


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## Inch (29 Aug 2005)

ChopperHead said:
			
		

> Inch...
> 
> Your right compared to you who I assume are a pilot ( I didn't check your profile ) I don't know much about flying but I do know enough. Lets not get technical on the vocabulary here when I say that the planes fall out of the sky I don't literally mean just drop I mean from technical problems like engine failure or whatever it may be and go down. I'm not gonna argue with you about this stuff because obviously you know more then I do but I mean the Tutors are getting old, one recently crashed because of an engine failure I believe, I don't know the circumstances behind it but regardless I think they need to be replaced before any other problems arise from ageing equipment being used in such advanced maneuvers. Just don't you think that if the snowbirds are out there showing Canada and the rest of the world our the best the airforce has to offer they should be equipt with the best possible modern aircraft not planes that were built back in late 60's.



Yes, one did recently crash and early reports are it was an engine failure. These things happen with aircraft, new and old. Fuel contamination can cause an engine to flame out, it could have nothing to do with the engine itself. A Hawk had a flame out last spring due to sucking in a bird, this lead to both pilots ejecting from a 5 year old aircraft that was completely destroyed in the crash. As I said before, we got new, more powerful engines in the Sea King about 5 years ago prior to the crash on the Iroquois and in the 40 years we've had the Sea King, there's been less than a dozen fatalities. I can't remember off hand the exact specifics, but most of the Snowbirds crashes have been because of mid-air contact which would happen regardless of what they were flying. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for new aircraft for the Snowbirds but since I fly the oldest aircraft in the inventory, I'm not going to agree that age was a factor since I know the kind of maintenance and overhauls that go into aircraft on a regular basis.


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## WogCpl (29 Aug 2005)

Hmmm! 9 new CF-18's for the snowbirds, (252 000 000) or 1 globemaster for the whole CF?(203 000 000) 
As far as the Army needing a demo team, I don't know?
We already have the Sky hawks...kinda (any element can apply)
Did recruiting go up after the winnipeg floods? or the quebec ice storm? or any forest fire in bc?
how can you get better pr than that?
Lack of new recruits is it's own animal, i don't think any demo team can help that.


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## Gunner98 (29 Aug 2005)

Enfield

Have you ever heard of the Army Gun Race team?   Pretty fine example -"that clearly emphasize basic military values and the purpose and capabilities of the Forces." Ten million dollar budget, they wish!
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/LF/English/6_1_1.asp?id=624

2005 ARMY GUN RACE SCHEDULE - REMAINDER
Concert at Dusk- Lévis, Que 20-21 Aug 05
Expo Cité City of Quebec 22-25 Aug 05
Ottawa Renegades Game Ottawa 8 Sept 05


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## George Wallace (29 Aug 2005)

Enfield

You have to open your eyes a little.  The LdSH(RC) Riding Troop conducted a Cross-Canada Tour a couple of years back, culmunating in a trip to England, where they performed the Changing of the Guard Ceremonies at Buckingham Palace; as did a Coy of PPCLI.  These various "Demonstation Teams" are out there.  Have you ever visited Quebec City and La Citadel?  Have you ever been in Ottawa, when a Foreign Head of State Visits?  Not all of the Parades and Ceremonies are 'travelling shows'.  Some are one time events or one location events.  What do you think of "Freedom of the City" ceremonies?  These events are happening all the time.  Sometimes they even get good press coverage.


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## jmacleod (29 Aug 2005)

NDHQ have indicated in public that the CT-114 aircraft flown by 431 Squadron will be replaced in
10-15 years. Old airframes are not the problem with the aircraft, there are lots of "old" airframes
around, (DC-3, DC-8,DC-9) but the problem is in obtaining parts for the Canadair built aircraft.
There is also another problem in Canada for the Flight Demonstration Squadron; the venues where
they can show off their stuff, the so-called "major airshows" are reduced, due to ever increasing
costs. Insurance for a typical airshow in Canada used to be, before 9/11, about $10,000. Now
the premium is about $100,000. The Snowbirds need the big events to really show off their stuff.
The actual future of the Team will be decided by Federal Cabinet decision (MND-Treasury Board)
driven by media reports and public reaction. I think all military display projects are important and
need support - the Navy Gun Run has been around since about 1942 - Military band concerts
are a standard in cities like Ottawa and Halifax, Skyhawks are one of the best parachute (airborne)
teams anywhere - all important to keep a high profile in front of the public.Canada had no aircraft at
the Royal International Air Tattoo RAF Fairford UK this year, for the first time since the event was
founded, a mistake in my opinion. Go to RIAT 2005 and you will see what I mean. MacLeod


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## enfield (29 Aug 2005)

Thanks George Wallace and Gunner98 for pointing out the Demo teams the army does have.
 I wasn't aware the LdSH Riding Troop was travelling so much, thats good to hear. There are a number of excellent events held in the public eye, however, I don't believe they capture the degree of showmanship and exceptionalism that I'm thinking of - specialization, I think, is the best word. 

I see a world of difference between the type of performance given by (to use a well-known example) the USMC Silent Drill Team and a Freedom of the City parade or the Guards at Parliament. They are activities with different purposes, and are a different type of show. 

I don't think its beneath the army to have a 'travelling show', that really is a _show_. The LdSH Riding Troop is the best example that I know of that the Army has.


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## Gunner98 (30 Aug 2005)

2 CMBG Petawawa also has an Army Tug of War team traveling throughout Quebec/Ontario this summer.  As I have said before, silent drill teams remind me of majorettes and the movie Cadet Kelly with Hillary Duff.


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## Spr.Earl (30 Aug 2005)

I'll p.m you ticket details  ;D


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## Spr.Earl (30 Aug 2005)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Enfield
> 
> You have to open your eyes a little.   The LdSH(RC) Riding Troop conducted a Cross-Canada Tour a couple of years back, culmunating in a trip to England, where they performed the Changing of the Guard Ceremonies at Buckingham Palace; as did a Coy of PPCLI.   These various "Demonstation Teams" are out there.   Have you ever visited Quebec City and La Citadel?   Have you ever been in Ottawa, when a Foreign Head of State Visits?   Not all of the Parades and Ceremonies are 'travelling shows'.   Some are one time events or one location events.   What do you think of "Freedom of the City" ceremonies?   These events are happening all the time.   Sometimes they even get good press coverage.


Re the LdSH Riding Troop,their horse's are not thoroughbreds,they are wild horse's as they were when the LdSh were created.Each horse is taken from the wild and are quite the beast.They are broken and tamed as the Reg. did in the past.They are a True Cow Boy Horse from Alberta,mangy looking things but strong and tough.
How I know this  is because one year the Troop was at the Abbotsford Arishow and were just 25m away from our dog and pony,when one of the Strats came up in his full rig and slapped me and another Unit member on the back,it turned out he was a former Sapper from 6Fd and told us all about thier job in the Troop and warned us don't get to close they "BITE",after his ride he showed us some scares from his beast. 
The Strat Troop are to day as they were 100 yrs ago.
Good on the Strats.


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## mover1 (31 Aug 2005)

Lots of horses bite.


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## CavarlyStrat (14 Nov 2005)

I know that this is about two months old but I just joined so...

 As a member of the LdSH mounted troop I can say that our horses are considered half broke by the Household Cavarly from England. We do train our horses and many  a rider has ended up with busted bones or sprained joints. I do know that we have had a positive reaction in every town we visit. This year it was something like 130 different communities. We do all this with a budget of about $120,000. That includes feeding the horses, medical for the horses, and transportation to events. So maybe demo teams should get more money not less?


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## 3rd Horseman (15 Nov 2005)

I am a supporter of demo teams as long as they are a part of our heritage and tradition. The LDSH riding troop, Gun run, etc. But don't feed me any crap about recruiting.... we can get all the recruits we want if we go back to accepting all qualified white english speaking males. Some demo teams are just a waste of money but not all. The CF mil sport games is a huge waste.


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## Ex-Dragoon (15 Nov 2005)

3rd Horseman said:
			
		

> I am a supporter of demo teams as long as they are a part of our heritage and tradition. The LDSH riding troop, Gun run, etc. But don't feed me any crap about recruiting.... we can get all the recruits we want if we go back to accepting all qualified white english speaking males. Some demo teams are just a waste of money but not all. The CF mil sport games is a huge waste.



I think you left your cross burning after your post....:


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## paracowboy (15 Nov 2005)

3rd Horseman said:
			
		

> I am a supporter of demo teams as long as they are a part of our heritage and tradition. The LDSH riding troop, Gun run, etc. But don't feed me any crap about recruiting.... we can get all the recruits we want if we go back to accepting all qualified white english speaking males. Some demo teams are just a waste of money but not all. The CF mil sport games is a huge waste.


wow, no wonder you were Rambo, you're part of the Master Race!


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## 3rd Horseman (15 Nov 2005)

Ok OK I will run out on the lawn with a pail of water and put the fire out.

Let me rephrase....if we stopped the quotas and recruited all the qualified people that came to the recruit centre we would have plenty of recruits.


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