# Question of the Hour



## Spr.Earl

What was the nick name of the Royal Newfoundland Regiment and why in WW1?
Thought I start the quiz again.


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## Michael OLeary

The Blue Puttees, because the first 500 of the regiment preparing for the First World War were issued blue puttees.

The Blue Puttees-An Authentic Record


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## stukirkpatrick

The Blue Puttees, because of their lack of material leading to scrounging, for the ankle-wrappings.

They were also called the "first 500"


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## stukirkpatrick

d‘oh, beaten to the punch!

Don‘t you think question of the hour is a long time?    

my excuse is I have 2 exams tomorrow, and this site is a great distraction from studying


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## Tyrnagog

ooh!  (--Edit:  And here I thought I was fast--)

A. The Blue Puttees

"The Newfoundland Regiment was raised from scratch and their uniforms were homespun. However, when the time came to make the puttee, the strip of cloth that goes around the soldier‘s calf like a legging, they could not find any more of the khaki broadcloth used for the uniforms. So, from some place, they scrounged blue broadcloth and from that they made the puttees. Hence the nickname of the Newfoundland Regiment, the Blue Puttees." 
(from The War Amps: Canada‘s Military Heritage)


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## Spr.Earl

Correct.What was the Sgt/Maj.‘s name?


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## stukirkpatrick

Sergeant-Major F.P. LeGrow? edit-  only name I could find - but I‘m going to sleep now, happy hunting!   :boring:


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## Spr.Earl

The first Sgt/Maj. when they first went over I should say.


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## Michael Dorosh

And which regiment wore Blue Puttees in WW II?


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## Bill Smy

Why do the Cadets at West Point wear grey?


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## stukirkpatrick

They wear grey because of that 1812 battle under Winfried Scott, right? - it was the uniform of his soldiers.


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## Redeye

Mr. Dorosh - the blue puttees during WWII were worn by the Glamour Boys - 48th Highlanders of Canada, the Dirty Four Dozen.


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## clasper

Well, I found the nominal roll for RNR online, and there are 6 RSM‘s on it:

338  RSM  Galgay Nicholas Augustus 
1385  RSM  Gullicksen Ernest 
404  RSM  LeGrow Frederick P 
51  RSM  Patrick Neil 
534  RSM  Paver George 
909  RSM  Peckham Harry R 

Since Neil Patrick has the lowest regimental number, he‘s probably the first.

 http://ngb.chebucto.org/NFREG/index1.html


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## Bill Smy

> Originally posted by Kirkpatrick:
> [qb] They wear grey because of that 1812 battle under Winfried Scott, right? - it was the uniform of his soldiers. [/qb]


Correct. The Battle of Chippawa in 1814. The Americans had run out of blue cloth, and had to issue uniforms made from grey cloth. It was the first victory in the war in which American regulars defeated British regulars. The West Point Cadet uniform is a reminder of this feat.


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## Danjanou

Follow up question. Why did the US regulars win that battle?

BTW right answer on the RSM of the RNLDR.


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## stukirkpatrick

"brain warmed up" ...because the defenders were led by a foolish Irishman      

Rial thought it was "nothing but a body of Buffalo militia!" because of their non-regulation clothing.  

Scott then accomplished a series of tricky parade ground manoeuvres, while the British were halted by heavy artillary fire.  Scott launched a bayonet charge, and it was over   

  :warstory:  
However, the victorious Americans were halted shortly after at the Battle of Lundy‘s lane, the bloodiest on Canadian soil, with roughly 800 dead on both sides, and bringing new meaning to ‘friendly fire‘.


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## Spr.Earl

In WW2 how many Carrier Pigeons went into action?
Yup we used them!   

Also what was one of the methods the Japanese used to destroy tanks in WW2?


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## Fishbone Jones

Don‘t know the bird question, but remember a long time ago being taught about the tank question. It wasn‘t normal protocol, but they used to dig a hole in the road, climb in with an aerial bomb or arty round and hammer. Get covered over and when a tank crossed over them they would detonate the bomb or artilley round with the hammer. Land borne Kamakazie!     Even got an old pam around here somewhere with a cross cut drawing of the setup.


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## Spr.Earl

> Originally posted by recceguy:
> [qb] Don‘t know the bird question, but remember a long time ago being taught about the tank question. It wasn‘t normal protocol, but they used to dig a hole in the road, climb in with an aerial bomb or arty round and hammer. Get covered over and when a tank crossed over them they would detonate the bomb or artilley round with the hammer. Land borne Kamakazie!       Even got an old pam around here somewhere with a cross cut drawing of the setup. [/qb]


Yup correct on the anti tank,nothing like a bang for your buck   

As to the birdies it was 56,000.


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## Spr.Earl

So where does the computer term "bug" come from?
Yes it‘s Military related.
Not own Military but still History.


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## Tyrnagog

Spr. Earl..

"The First "Computer Bug"

Moth found trapped between points at Relay # 70, Panel F, of the Mark II Aiken Relay Calculator while it was being tested at Harvard University, 9 September 1945. The operators affixed the moth to the computer log, with the entry: "First actual case of bug being found". They put out the word that they had "debugged" the machine, thus introducing the term "debugging a computer program".
In 1988, the log, with the moth still taped by the entry, was in the Naval Surface Warfare Center Computer Museum at Dahlgren, Virginia."

from  http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h96000/h96566kc.htm


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## Spr.Earl

> Originally posted by Tyrnagog:
> [qb] Spr. Earl..
> 
> "The First "Computer Bug"
> 
> Moth found trapped between points at Relay # 70, Panel F, of the Mark II Aiken Relay Calculator while it was being tested at Harvard University, 9 September 1945. The operators affixed the moth to the computer log, with the entry: "First actual case of bug being found". They put out the word that they had "debugged" the machine, thus introducing the term "debugging a computer program".
> In 1988, the log, with the moth still taped by the entry, was in the Naval Surface Warfare Center Computer Museum at Dahlgren, Virginia."
> 
> from   http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h96000/h96566kc.htm  [/qb]


Correcto Mundo!!
Hmm let me see if I can find another.


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## Spr.Earl

In WW2 which actor impersonated Winston Churchill in a BBC recording of a 1942 speech because he was to busy?

Heres another    

One estimate is that 1% of all the bombs dropped on Germany on this one targetl,German Industry would have collapsed there by shorting the War?


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## clasper

> [qb] This, and two other crucial broadcasts to his nation during the fateful spring/summer of 1940 were made not by Churchill but by an actor hired to impersonate him. Norman Shelley, who played Winnie-the-Pooh for the BBC‘s Children‘s Hour, impersonated Churchill for history, fooling millions of listeners. Some historians suggest Churchill, an alcoholic, was too drunk to deliver the speeches himself. [/qb]


 http://www.delta.tudelft.nl/jaargangen/36/4/ENG04Churchill.html 

Spr. Earl- any chance that date was a typo?  (Or any chance Churchill hired actors all the time?)


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## Gunnar

Apparently, Jack Higgin‘s "The Eagle Has Landed" is more than just a good yarn.  It has real basis in fact.  It was convenient to have Churchill appearing publically at more than one place at a time.

I seem to recall a story about carrier pigeons and the Canadian army...one of the batches they sent out were eaten by the troops.  Dunno how true it is, but it makes a **** of a good story.  ;-)

How are those specially-trained carrier pigeons working out, Canada?

Tasted great Sir.  Please send more!


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## Spr.Earl

In the Sept. of 1944 what was 3 miles wide and 94 miles long?


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## casing

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> In the Sept. of 1944 what was 3 miles wide and 94 miles long?


Market Garden airborne attack in Holland.


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## Spr.Earl

Casing said:
			
		

> Spr.Earl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the Sept. of 1944 what was 3 miles wide and 94 miles long?
> 
> 
> 
> Market Garden airborne attack in Holland.
Click to expand...

Congrats  
Now your turn.


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## casing

What was the password on D-Day?


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## Spr.Earl

Casing said:
			
		

> What was the password on D-Day?


Micky Mouse


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## Spr.Earl

Which Canadian Unit advanced the furthest East than any other Canadian Unit in WW2?


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## condor888000

Canadian Parachute Battalion.


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## condor888000

Which division was nicknamed "the water rats"?


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## Spr.Earl

condor888000 said:
			
		

> Canadian Parachute Battalion.


Yup 1 Can. Para.

What does the â Å“Dâ ? in D-Day stand for?


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## Spr.Earl

condor888000 said:
			
		

> Which division was nicknamed "the water rats"?


The 3rd Div. because of they had the nasty job of clearing the Scheldt along with the rest of Holland.


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## casing

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> What does the â Å“Dâ ? in D-Day stand for?



*D* for *D*ay (of operation). In this case, June 6, 1944.


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## casing

condor888000 said:
			
		

> Which division was nicknamed "the water rats"?



Canadian Third Division

_Yeah, what Earl said._


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## Spr.Earl

Casing said:
			
		

> Spr.Earl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What does the â Å“Dâ ? in D-Day stand for?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *D* for *D*ay (of operation). In this case, June 6, 1944.
Click to expand...

Correct and not Dooms Day or other variations as many have us believe.


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## casing

What modern day group/organization can trace their lineage to WWII volunteer SeeBees?


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## Spr.Earl

Casing said:
			
		

> What modern day group/organization can trace their lineage to WWII volunteer SeeBees?


The U.S.N's. Construction Batallions.


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## casing

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> Casing said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What modern day group/organization can trace their lineage to WWII volunteer SeeBees?
> 
> 
> 
> The U.S.N's. Construction Batallions.
Click to expand...


Not what I'm looking for. Think high profile.


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## Spr.Earl

Casing said:
			
		

> Spr.Earl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Casing said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What modern day group/organization can trace their lineage to WWII volunteer SeeBees?
> 
> 
> 
> The U.S.N's. Construction Batallions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not what I'm looking for. Think high profile.
Click to expand...



I've tried a search but came up with Zilch.
Off the top of my head could it be the Civie side of the Corps Of Engineers?
As they deal with dams,levee's,bridges etc for the whole U.S.


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## casing

Ok, the spelling may have thrown you off. I've seen it spelled both SeeBees and SeaBees.  So I double checked the spelling and it is actually SeaBees.  That should help.  Also, the Naval Construction Batallions essentially are the SeaBees.  So you are on the right track.  What came after the NCBs?


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## Bill Smy

Casing said:
			
		

> Spr.Earl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What does the â Å“Dâ ? in D-Day stand for?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *D* for *D*ay (of operation). In this case, June 6, 1944.
Click to expand...


I had always been led to believe that the "D" stood for "Departure"


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## Danjanou

Ok Casing let me try.

During WWII The US Navy's UDT ( Under Water Demolition Teams) drew their volunteers from the SeaBees.

In the 1960's the UDTs provided the recruits for the US Navy's newest units , the Sea Air Land Sp ops teams or as we know them SEALs. So is that high profile enough, and what do I win? ;D


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## stukirkpatrick

Heck, I was gonna toss SEALS into the air, merely because its what you think of when you hear "Navy" and "high profile"  ;D

I figure thats the right answer too.


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## casing

Danjanou, you are correct!   Nice break down too.   Your reward is that you now get to pose a question, of course.     

Sorry, Kirkpatrick, you were just too slow.   ;D


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## Spr.Earl

Good one Casing,and theres me thinking on the construction side.


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## Michael OLeary

In what year was the designation "Royal" approved for the Army's schools? And which schools did it apply to at that time?


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## para paramedic

The earliest references that I've been able to find are for RMC and RCAS (Royal Canadian Artillery School). RMC was granted the title "Royal" by Queen Victoria in 1878, and according to the RCA website, the Schools of Gunnery in both Kingston and Quebec City were granted the title "Royal" by 1880.

I haven't been able to find any other historical references so far.


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## Michael OLeary

From General order 68 of 1927:

TITLE "ROYAL" -- PERMANENT SCHOOLS OF INSTRUCTION

His Majesty the King has been graciously pleased to approve of the title "Royal" being borne by the undermentioned Permanent Schools of Instruction at the places named, which schools will now bear the designations given below:--


School Location"The Royal Canadian School of Cavalry" Toronto, Ont. [br]St. Johns, P.Q.[br]Winnipeg, Man. [br]Calgary, Alta."The Royal Canadian School of Artillery" Kingston, Ont.[br]Winnipeg, Man.[br]Halifax, N.S. [br]Esquimault, B.C."The Royal Canadian School of Military Engineering" Halifax, N.S."The Royal Canadian School of Signals" Camp Borden, Ont."The Royal Canadian School of Infantry" St. Johns, P.Q."The Royal Canadian School of Infantry and Machine Guns" London, Ont.[br]Toronto, Ont. [br]Quebec, P.Q.[br]Halifax, N.S. [br]Esquimault,B.C.[br]Winnipeg, Man.

H.Q. 313-9-56
P.C. 1472 of 4-8-27​


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## Bill Smy

Bill Smy said:
			
		

> Casing said:
> 
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> Spr.Earl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What does the â Å“Dâ ? in D-Day stand for?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *D* for *D*ay (of operation). In this case, June 6, 1944.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I had always been led to believe that the "D" stood for "Departure"
Click to expand...


Found this explanation:

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/faq/ddaydef.htm


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## Michael OLeary

We've all been on military courses, some with Pass/Fail gradings, others with letter grades (A, B, C, F). But the Army doesn't use a "D" grade, and that omission was for a specific reason when letter gradings were standardized for Canadian Army courses. What was that reason?


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## Michael OLeary

In 1946, qualification ratings for Army courses were standardized by Canadian Army Routine Order 6687. In this order, the grades A, B, C, E and F were rated as "Outstanding", "Above Average", "Average", "Below Average" and "Failed", respectively. The use of the letter grade "D" was specifically omitted to ensure there would be no confusion with its former significance indicating a "Distinguished" pass.


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## Danjanou

What did the Fusiliers Mont Royal lose in 1944? When was it returned to them?


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## Bill Smy

What Canadian regiment has the unique distinction of capturing an enemy regimental colour?


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## Scratch_043

The 41st Regiment under the comand of Major General Sir Isaac Brock, Captured the colours of the 4th Regiment of the United States Infantry, durring the capture of Fort Detroit, August 16th, 1812.


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## stukirkpatrick

Thats what I was going to say, but it was a British regiment stationed in Canada during the time period of the War of 1812.   Unless that counts.   Other than that, I'm stumped on both questions.   :-\


addition - I actually started searching french canadian sites late last night to find the answer, using my rudimentary french.  Its too hot here to sleep.  :evil:


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## Scratch_043

yeah, I couldn't think of the Fusiliers Mont Royal question either, I am currently looking for the answer, but having no luck. I love google, but sometime, if you don't have the exact right wording, your SOL.


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## Bill Smy

Kirkpatrick said:
			
		

> Thats what I was going to say, but it was a British regiment stationed in Canada during the time period of the War of 1812.   Unless that counts.   Other than that, I'm stumped on both questions.   :-\
> 
> 
> addition - I actually started searching french canadian sites late last night to find the answer, using my rudimentary french.   Its too hot here to sleep.   :evil:



As I said "Canadian" regiment.   Right war. Wrong General and wrong battle. And the engagement was on Upper Canada soil.


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## Bill Smy

I guess I've stumped you guys.

A private soldier of the 2nd Regiment of Lincoln Militia captured a New York infantry regimental colour at the Battle ofQueenston Heights, 13 October1812. His company had forced marched from Chippawa to Queenston that afternoon and arrived just in time to join the assault ordered by General Scheaffe on the American lines.

The colour was sent to the UK as a war trophy with the colours captured by the 41st Regiment at Detroit earlier that year. It was hung in the Great Hall at Chelsea for many years. It is now under glass in the museum, and a replica hangs in its place.

The Queen has had it on loan long enough. I say return it!  :fifty:


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## Danjanou

Ok I'll let my FMR one run one more day and post the answer tomorrow if no one gets it.

Here's an easy one. What happened at or near Terrance BC in WWII?


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## Scratch_043

could you narrow it down to a particular year? I think I might know what it is, but I am not positive(only fools are positive)


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## stukirkpatrick

I am also awake with nothing better to do  ;D

There was a mutiny of bored Canadian soldiers in 1944 because of nothing to do, is that it?


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## Scratch_043

I wad thinking of the opening of the skeena river highway, opened by transporting a convoy of canadian and american bands, but yours sounds alot more exciting related to military history.


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## Danjanou

Kirkpatrick has it, partially. The mutiny wasn't so much about boredom but being sent overseas. The camp was a training base for NRMA troops (Zombies) who were enlisted/conscripted for the defence of Canada only. By 1944 the units overseas needed warm bodies to replace casualties and it was decided to ship some NRMA overseas. For some strange reason they objected to this.

Barry Broadfoot's oral history of WWII _Six War Years _ has a fairly good first person accout of the mutiny in it, including the deployment of a battery of arty by the mutineers who threatened to blow up  the troop trains that were to take them back east.

Followup question. Was this the last time Canadian Military personal mutinied?

I'll post the FMR answer later today.


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## stukirkpatrick

Oh I've heard of the "zombies".  As for your follow-up, an example comes off the top of my head.  HMCS Uganda, one of Canada's few cruiser class ships voted itself out of the war (democracy at work!) because most of its crew did not volunteer for service in the Japanese conflict.


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## Guardian

Last mutiny I am aware of was on HMCS Magnificent and a couple of destroyers in the '50s. Something about working conditions and British officers, I think, but I could be wrong.....


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## Danjanou

That's the one I was thinking of. Not sure if the Magnificent was involved, just a couple of ships of the west coast fleet.

I remember watching a documentary about it 10-15 years ago with my Dad (former RCN). Some talking head suggested it was all about British officers and the old man quietly advised me that was so much BS. He didn't offer any details, but I feel it was more a working conditions thing. Probably more on the line of a work to rule campaign then a full blown mutiny. No biggie these days but probably something in the 1950's.

And before you ask, no the old man wan't in it. I checked he was based in Halifax at the time. Probably knew some of the guys involved though.


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## Danjanou

Ooops forgot to post the FMR answer yesterday.

In 1944 when the regiment arrived in Normandy for some reason they brought the Regimental Drums with them. During some heavy fighting it looked like the unit would have to withdraw or even be overrun. To prevent their capture the Drums were buried in a French farmer's barn. 

The FMR were able to beat back the enemy counterattack and then either because they were moving too fast, forgot about them, or perhaps couldn't remember where they'd buried them, the drums were left behind. They were eventually located and returned to the Unit in the 1950s.

The above was a little anecdote I discovered while reshelving some of my history books in new cases. ( got bored and started reading). I've not been able to confirm it or get other details. Any FMRs out there know the whole story?


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## Spr.Earl

Which German Bomber was capable of bombing New York City?


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## para paramedic

Messerschmitt Me264 Amerika bomber - designed as a maritime bomber (from a long range research aircraft) that had the range to reach cities on the US east coast and return.


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## Spr.Earl

correct.


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## Michael Dorosh

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Ok I'll let my FMR one run one more day and post the answer tomorrow if no one gets it.
> 
> Here's an easy one. What happened at or near Terrance BC in WWII?



Was this not related to the employment of the 13th Brigade at Kiska?  Or was that a seperate incident?


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## Spr.Earl

Mike I think he may mean Terrace B.C.?


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## Art Johnson

Just a guess, a Japanese fire ballon touched down.


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## Scratch_043

Art Johnson said:
			
		

> Just a guess, a Japanese fire ballon touched down.


which question are you answering, because the Terrace BC question was answered a while ago.


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## Michael Dorosh

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> Mike I think he may mean Terrace B.C.?



LOL

Yes, I know - they embarked for Kiska in BC, and before embarkation were concentrated in the province IIRC...


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## Spr.Earl

During WWII there were only 3 Dry Docks able too take the Qn. Mary name them.
I'll eliminate one of them because the River was not deep enough for her and that was Gladstone Dock in Liverpool.U.K.
Where were the other two?


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## Scott

I'll venture a guess by saying that Halifax is probably one of them


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## Spr.Earl

scott1nsh said:
			
		

> I'll venture a guess by saying that Halifax is probably one of them


A good guess but no Cuban.


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## Bill Smy

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> During WWII there were only 3 Dry Docks able too take the Qn. Mary name them.
> I'll eliminate one of them because the River was not deep enough for her and that was Gladstone Dock in Liverpool.U.K.
> Where were the other two?



Esquimalt


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## Art Johnson

What a great question. John Brown shipyard on the Clyde has to be one. Boston shipyard is probably another and I believe a shipyard in Belfast may be another.


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## Bill Smy

Sapper Earl:- What's the answer to the Dry Dock question you posed on 3 September?


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## Spr.Earl

Bill Smy said:
			
		

> Sapper Earl:- What's the answer to the Dry Dock question you posed on 3 September?


I have been away and had no net access.
O.K. here goes.
Art I forgot about the Belfast and Clyde Yards,the other two were Esquimalt and the Navy Yard in Singapore.
During the War a very strange object appeared in English bay (Vancouver) ity was the Mary waiting to go into Esquimalt Graveing Dock for refurbishing as a Troop ship.
The Admarlty sent her over for fear of her being bombed in the U.K. Yards while the refurbishing was going on.


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## Spr.Earl

When did the Bomb Disposal (E.O.D.) Trade start and by whom?


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## Spr.Earl

Who was the first to use explosives to further their cause in the Terrorist sense?


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## Bill Smy

Perhaps some renegade group in one of the out provinces of Ancient China, soon after the Chinese invention of gunpowder. 

In all seriousness, I think it will be really difficult to nail this to the board. Should be some interesting replies.


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## Scratch_043

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> When did the Bomb Disposal (E.O.D.) Trade start and by whom?


in the canadian military, or in general?


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## condor888000

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> Who was the first to use explosives to further their cause in the Terrorist sense?



Wild guess here...Guy Fawkes(sp)?


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## Bill Smy

It's common knowledge that the first National Flag of Canada (commonly referred to as the Maple Leaf flag) to be flown atop the Peace Tower on 15 February 1965 has long been missing. On a number of occaisons over the last 39 years the issue has been raised by both Members of Parliament and the general public. But to no avail.

The question, though, is what happened to the last Canadian Red Ensign that was lowered that day? Is it missing too?


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## Spr.Earl

condor888000 said:
			
		

> Wild guess here...Guy Fawkes(sp)?


Correct


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## Spr.Earl

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> When did the Bomb Disposal (E.O.D.) Trade start and by whom?


The British were the first to start training Bomb Disposal Teams from members of the Royal Engineers in beginning of WWII (Battle of Britain).
Up until then no Military bothered about it until the Germans started Bombing the Industrial centers of Britain and suddenly realising what havoc U.X.B.'s can cause to all.

A good program to watch about it is " Danger U.X.B." it's fact mixed with the day to day going's on of a Bomb Disposal Section in London and the progression of the Trade.


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## Bill Smy

With regard to the last Red Ensign to fly over the Peace Tower.

It is now in the Canadian Museum of Civilization, Item No D-1776, described as "This was the Canadian Red Ensign to be flown from the Peace Tower in Ottawa and was lowered on February 15, 1965 at 10:45 a.m. That day was the day was the day of the proclamation of the Canadian Flag. Flag made of silk. Label sewn on it reads 'SCYCO PRODUCT, MADE IN CANADA' Stamped on side is 'Canadian Ensign' D.P.W. 12 ft. Canadian coat of arms is sewn on separately."

On 16 December 1965, the Secretary of State transferred two "Red Ensign flags for safekeeping" to the National Museum. "The large one is the last Canadian flag to be flown from the Peace Tower and which was lowered on February 15, 1965. The smaller one was used for the ceremony."


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## RatCatcher

I may be wrong but as far as I know the answer I have is correct.... What Canadian Regiment was the last to retire their union jack colour....?


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## Bill Smy

Don't know how many regiments still carry the Union Flag as their Queen's Colour, but The Lincoln and Welland Regiment does.


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## Danjanou

Ah the thread that never dies.

Ok new question.

What where and when was the last significant ground action of the War of 1812?


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## clasper

Danjanou said:
			
		

> What where and when was the last significant ground action of the War of 1812?



The Battle of New Orleans happened in January 1815, a few weeks after the Treaty of Ghent was signed which ended the war.

http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h511.html


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## Danjanou

Nice try Clasper but no cigar. There was actually another engagment fought after that one involving about 300 US and 5000 British/Colonial troops.


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## ackland

The taking of Fort boyer was the last battle of teh war only about 25 british casualties but still a battle none the less. 

http://members.tripod.com/~war1812/batboy.html


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## Danjanou

Yup that's it. 

After taking Ft Boyer Major General Lambert and his 5,000 British and West Indies troops were in a position to easily capture Mobile and probably raid and pillage the whole coast had they not received word the war was over.

The naval forces they had made them much more mobile than Jackson's forces. In addition Old Hickory was probably reluctant to leave his defences near New Orleans. His troops while good in defence were for the most part untrained or partially trained militia and volunteers. In a stand up open fight against British regulars commanded by a competant General, which Lambert was, they probably would not have done as well as they did fighting behind bales of cotton against a sucicidal frontal assault.


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## Spr.Earl

What is the worst Maritime loss of life in War,of all time as a matter of fact?


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## Lance Wiebe

I would have to guess the Halifax explosion.........


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## Spr.Earl

Lance Wiebe said:
			
		

> I would have to guess the Halifax explosion.........


I should rephrase that as a" Sinking" as in all aboard said Ship.
Sorry Lance.


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## condor888000

The Wilhem Gustloff in 1945?


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## jfladeroute

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> I should rephrase that as a" Sinking" as in all aboard said Ship.



Single ship? The sinking of the Wilhelm Gustloff by a Russian submarine in 1945. Loss of life is generally estimated between 5000 and 7000, but some recent studies conclude that the actual death toll could be over 9000.

If you're talking single incident, it would be two ships - the Cap Arcona and the Thielbek, sunk by RAF Typhoons, May 3 1945. Around 8000 people died. 

But these are subject to change - in June 1940, HMT (formerly RMS) Lancastria was sunk by German aircraft while evacuating troops and civilians from France. Death toll is estimated at anything between 4000 to 9000, but will remain unknown until the British Government releases its reports (withheld under the Official Secrets Act) in 2040.


----------



## Spr.Earl

condor888000 said:
			
		

> The Wilhem Gustloff in 1945?


Yowzer!!
I salute you 
Give me the pertuculers.


----------



## 1feral1

Hi Nick, hows things in Vn these days? Alls well here in the harbour city, and i got my posting I wanted ;D

CATC SAW in Enoggera! 


Now some 'hard' questions


Okay here is a couple of questions for ya's. 

What was A) Australia's worst Naval disaster? 

B) What was Sydney Harbour's worse maritime disaster?

Many people who have lived here all their lives don't even have a clue, but I know 


Cheers,

Wes


----------



## condor888000

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> Yowzer!!
> I salute you
> Give me the pertuculers.



Sunk by a Russian sub a few hours after leaving port in East Prussia, I believe over 5000 died. They recently ran a one of those unsolved mysteries shows or something on the discovery channel. Using a computer model they raised that figure to something in the 10,000 range.


----------



## Spr.Earl

Wesley H. Allen said:
			
		

> Hi Nick, hows things in Vn these days? Alls well here in the harbour city, and i got my posting I wanted ;D
> 
> CATC SAW in Enoggera!
> 
> 
> Now some 'hard' questions
> 
> 
> Okay here is a couple of questions for ya's.
> 
> What was A) Australia's worst Naval disaster?
> 
> B) What was Sydney Harbour's worse maritime disaster?
> 
> Many people who have lived here all their lives don't even have a clue, but I know
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Wes





On 19 November 1941, following a battle with the German raider HSK Kormoran, in the Indian Ocean off the Western Australian coast, the light cruiser HMAS Sydney disappeared, almost without trace. The loss of the Sydney with its full war complement of 645 remains to this day Australia's worst naval disaster and one of its greatest wartime mysteries. The only confirmed relics found were a lifebelt and a Carley life float damaged by shellfire. Of the Kormoran's crew of 397, 317 were rescued.


----------



## Spr.Earl

Wesley H. Allen said:
			
		

> Hi Nick, hows things in Vn these days? Alls well here in the harbour city, and i got my posting I wanted ;D
> 
> CATC SAW in Enoggera!
> 
> 
> Now some 'hard' questions
> 
> 
> Okay here is a couple of questions for ya's.
> 
> What was A) Australia's worst Naval disaster?
> 
> B) What was Sydney Harbour's worse maritime disaster?
> 
> Many people who have lived here all their lives don't even have a clue, but I know
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Wes




The third of November 1927 was a beautiful day to be on Sydney Harbour. A 16 year old ferry by the name of Greycliffe was making its regular 4:14pm run from Circular Quay to Watsons Bay. Aboard were school children, naval officers, business-men, doctors, families on holiday and dockyard workers - a neat cross-section  of Syd-ney society - all enjoying the idyllic Sydney afternoon. But it would only be a matter of minutes before "the water was alive with dozens of bobbing heads, spluttering and screaming, hands groping for anything to keep them above water... surrounded by what moments ago was a perfectly stable Sydney ferry."

Sydney was rocked by the news that the ferry Greycliffe had been run down and sunk by the trans-Pacific Royal Mail Steamship Tahiti. Forty or so of Greycliffe's passengers were dead or missing. Onlookers lined the water-front. Vessels of all sizes rushed to the scene to assist. Whilst losses were relatively small in comparison to some of the more infamous maritime disasters in history, Sydneysiders were profoundly stunned by the tragedy. It seemed so sudden, so random, so terribly violent, and so much like it could have been one of them. 


Wes I knew both but in all honesty forgot the names,times and dates of those Maritime Tragedies.


----------



## Spr.Earl

In WWII where was the H.Q. for controlling all shipping crossing the Atlantic.?

What was it's name?

I'll give you a hint,it had one of two red phones in Britain,one was in London,which was a direct line to the White House and the other was at this site, which was in direct contact with Churchhill.


----------



## Scratch_043

it was on the Liverpool waterfront, and it was called the Western Aproaches Command Center.


----------



## Spr.Earl

ToRN said:
			
		

> it was on the Liverpool waterfront, and it was called the Western Aproaches Command Center.


Correct.
You can go and see it.
It's a Museum now and it's very interesting.


----------



## 1feral1

SPR Earl scores 100% on both Aussie questions! 

Good on ya. 

BTW, the RAN will soon be searching for the HMAS Sydney off the WA coast. That life raft you mentioned is on display at the National War Memorial in Canberra. Peppered with shrapnel and blast damage.

Cheers,

Wes


----------



## Spr.Earl

Which Unit put forth the first suggestion's to form a aviation section in Canada?


----------



## Michael OLeary

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> Which Unit put forth the first suggestion's to form a aviation section in Canada?



That would be the Engineers, following with their involvement in supporting the demonstration flights of the _Silver Dart_ and the _Baddeck _ in 1909.


----------



## Spr.Earl

No.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

I'm going to go out on a limb here and GUESS it was the Arty. Wanted to use them as spotters?


----------



## Spr.Earl

No


----------



## Spr.Earl

Come on Ladies and Germs I'm still waiting.


----------



## AmmoTech90

The British Army Council in 1915.


----------



## Spr.Earl

No.


----------



## Figure11

I'm guessing that it may have been around the time of the 1885 north west rebellion, and may have involved a unit on that expedition. RCR maybe or the RCMP?


----------



## Spr.Earl

No


----------



## AmmoTech90

Does aviation include ballons? (for this question)


----------



## Scratch_043

the navy pilots??


----------



## pbi

Sapper Earl: If the EOD business didn't get started until WWII, how were the bombs, naval shells and naval mines that landed in UK during WWI dealt with? What about during previous wars in which explosive siege rounds were dropped on cities, such as the Siege of Paris during the Franco-Prussian War, or the siege of Richmond in the US Civil War? How would these UXOs have been disposed of, and by whom? Obviously somebody must have done it, because life generally returned to normal in these cities after the conflicts.

Given the very unreliable nature of early fusing systems, there must have been hundreds if not thousands of these things lying about after any serious pre-WWII conflict involving HE ammo. What happened? Cheers.


----------



## Spr.Earl

PBI,we had a dsicussion on that topic and no one had a clear answer.
One of my thoughts was they just picked it up as they found it and git rid of it.
Some one else mentioned the Penal battalions that many an Army had in the past and the task might have been given to them.

As for Seamines that's a Naval responsibility and I know next to nothing about them only that they you used to shoot at them to set them off when found.

I've tried searching the net for an answer but have drawn a blank.
I'll try some more and see what I get.


----------



## Spr.Earl

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> Which Unit put forth the first suggestion's to form a aviation section in Canada?



It was 6Fd Co.


CANADA'S FIRST MILITARY FLIGHT
The idea of flight to support military operations is in no stretch of the imagination a 20th century concept.  The use of balloons for observation and artillery fire control was used by Napoleon and during the U.S. Civil War.  By the late 1800's the Royal Engineers had established balloon sections and a Air Battalion.  It was these Engineer sponsored units that carried out the experimentation that brought Britain to the fore of Military aviation.  Indeed the Royal Air Force dates it's history back to these R.E. Balloon Sections. 
Unfortunately, the suggestions put forth by the 6th Field Company R.C.E. in 1913 to form an aviation section were not implemented in Canada, but the young Corp of R.C.E. did have the privilege to be connected with Canada's first Military flight.  In July 1909 the Corp was tasked to construct a hanger and temporary airstrip in Petawawa, Ontario.  Also on site were two associates of Dr. Alexander Graham Bell and Ex-Sappers of the 2nd Field Company C.E.  On the 23 July 1909, Mr. J.A.D. McCurdy and F.W. Baldwin, with the assistance of Capt. Tyrrell R.E. and Lt. Perrin R.C.E., began to assemble two aircraft delivered by rail from Braddock N.S. 

On the 2 Aug 1909, Baldwin and McCurdy made four successful take-offs and landings.  Unfortunately the "Silver Dart" was wrecked on the fourth landing.  With the aid of a Sapper ground crew the second aircraft "Beddeck 1" was assembled and flown before a considerable audience of military and civil officials.  Again misfortune plagued the demonstration and the "Beddeck 1" crashed on its second landing.  As a result of these demonstrations Maj. Maunsell, as Director of Engineer Services, was assigned to observe any new trials carried by McCurdy and Baldwin.  He spent several days at Beddeck N.S. in 1910 and was taken up on two "short flips".  As a result he was convinced that flying had a future in the military and suggested that an aviation section R.C.E. be formed to conduct trials on the handling of aircraft and balloons. 

Even though the Militia Council approved his recommendations, the Minister of Militia and Defence vetoed the proposal.  Thus ending Canada's first attempt at forming a military aviation section.  The reasons for the veto are unknown.  Perhaps, with war clouds looming in Europe and the heavy commitments for Engineer services to the permanent Corp, military flight had a low priority.  But, as the bronze plaque at C.F.B. Petawawa states "The first Military demonstration of aircraft flight in Canada" was in fact a Sapper flight.


----------



## gun plumber

What city in Canada was the site of a 3 day riot that involved service personal and resulted in the "city of glass"?


----------



## gun plumber

Bonus Question-What 2 infantry regiments came from that city that were known as the "66th" and the"64th"and which regiment still exists today?What about the status of the other one?


----------



## Scott

Was it not Halifax? Sailors were responsible for that one if I recall. Damn sailors, bad sailors. Ex D and Che, you guys can stop smiling!!

Am I right?


----------



## Rfn

I do believe it is Halifax as scott1nsh said. The regiments would be the Halifax Rifles and the Princess Louise Fusiliers. The PLF is still around.


----------



## Scott

Aye, memory jogged, didn't the Halifax Rifles become the group that watches over the Citadel? Or are they a straightforward Highland Unit?


----------



## gun plumber

Correct.It was mostly Navy(they started it!)but there was all elements involved when it was said and done
Good book to read:Open Gangway-Story of the Halifax Riots
Now,any takers on the bonus........

Ps Scott1nsh-when was the last time u were home?


----------



## Scott

May. And I just might go for X-Mas, if not it'll be May next year. I love that time of year, no humidity. Why do you ask?

My turn, do gun plumbers also get plumbers crack? ;D


----------



## gun plumber

Ghezz,you guys are sharp!Yes it is the PLF and the Halifax Rifles-the PLF continues to train to this day while the Rifles were reduced to NIL strenth in the 60's.They are perpetuated today by a regimential association and a cadet corp.....
Hero cookie Question-What role did the rifles assume during WW2?


----------



## Scott

Got me, Point Pleasant or McNab's duty?


----------



## gun plumber

I hav'nt been home in almost 3 years(Halifax)and am just wondering if anything has changed.
We dont get plumbers crack as long as we invest in a belt...


----------



## gun plumber

The Rifle assumed the role of armd recce during ww2 overseas(23 armd regt)
My old regt pulled fort duty during ww2 on the islands.Can u guess what it is?


----------



## gun plumber

By the way,just read your profile.I myself was on OP persistance.Where were you based?Peggy"s Cove or Blandford?


----------



## Scott

I do not know. I was going to say the PLF, I know that they were overseas but I thought that they did some time in Point Pleasant as well. I learned this once but that was many moons and almost as many beers ago.

Traffic in Halifax is better than when I left, but that still leaves alot to be desired. The last two years that I have been home I have only gone into the city for nocturnal activities  I promised myself that the next time I go that I am going to spend more time in the city.

I was at Blandford. Lovely staying at that fire hall, no beer, no food for the first two days, sleeping on top of one another. It was an experience. I also went into Shearwater, did you spend all your time on the beaches or get elsewhere? When I did beaches I went from Publicover (the Whaling Stn where the black boxes came ashore) to the east, we also put troops on Big Tancook Island.

It's amazing, you're the first person I have met here that did that Op.


----------



## Michael OLeary

gun plumber said:
			
		

> Bonus Question-What 2 infantry regiments came from that city that were known as the "66th" and the"64th"and which regiment still exists today?What about the status of the other one?




Actually, the Halifax Rifles were the "63rd The Halifax Volunteer Battalion of Rifles" in 1869 and went through a few name changes before changing to simply "The Halfax Rifles" in 1920. (http://regiments.org/regiments/na-canada/volmil/ns-inf/063halif.htm)

The Princess Louise Fusiliers were the "66th The Halifax Battalion of Infantry" in 1869, and similarly were renamed before becoming "The Princess Louise Fusiliers" by 1920. (http://regiments.org/regiments/na-canada/volmil/ns-inf/066PLF.htm)

The PLF do perpetuate the 64th Battalion, C.E.F., of the First World War.



			
				scott1nsh said:
			
		

> Aye, memory jogged, didn't the Halifax Rifles become the group that watches over the Citadel? Or are they a straightforward Highland Unit?



The PLF once provided the staff for the summer employmewnt programs that ran a scarlet suited guard on the Citadel in Halifax in the 70s and into the 80s. The unit never actually garrisoned the Citadel, except perhaps providing troops during the wars to the local garrison. When Parks Canada last executed a significant rebuilding of the Fort, the period selected to be presented, and re-enacted was the 1880s (If I recall correctly), and the garrison these days is a reenactment organization of the 78th Highlanders and the Royal Artillery.

http://www.tourcanada.com/citadel.htm


----------



## Scott

Thank you, Michael.


----------



## gun plumber

I stayed mostly around the Peggy's cove area.After the debris field"Relocated" further down the coast,my duties became that of driver,lug and carry,sig op and security platoon 2ic.Still no awnser on what's my old regt?
PS you to are the only one I have found that served there as well.How soon it is forgotten....


----------



## winchable

> I hav'nt been home in almost 3 years(Halifax)and am just wondering if anything has changed.



I'm here, if you have any specific questions about the city now just PM me.

Bloody sailors, bad sailors..damn bad sailors.


----------



## NavyGrunt

Che said:
			
		

> Bloody sailors, bad sailors..damn bad sailors.



Muah haha. And we wouldnt have it any other way- would we Che?


----------



## winchable

Yarr matey and ye bos'ns are the worst of the lot 

War's me grog n' wench

I hate to perpetuate the stereotype, but if you go into any pub or bar and find the drunkest guy there I'll bet you that 80% of the time it's a sailor!


----------



## Scott

Che said:
			
		

> War's me grog n' wench



Che, I walked into the Stag's Head Pub (Is that it's proper name? The one in Keith's Brewery) and hollered this, I was very, very drunk and The staff got MAD. Period actors my arse! I was only overcome by the history and tried to play along :


----------



## winchable

Period actors being politcally correct?
A travesty.
I was at a pub with period actors in England and it was greeeeeeeeeeeat. The wenches had bustiers and their hair up and they were in period dresses and they'd sit on your lap and entertain the table (not stripping or anything, just good company) and once you get drunk enough you started to really get into it because they had the music and the one old man with a peg leg playing a piano and "fights" would break out....*sigh* yarr.


----------



## Spr.Earl

Where does out present  quote of " 3 square a day"  a day come form?


----------



## jmacleod

The Princess Louise Fusiliers are still active in Halifax NS. There has been a continuing campaign to
restore the Halifax Rifles to the Militia List, led by several former General Officers in the Canadian
Army,including LtGen E.A.C Amy DSO,MC, (served in World WarII Strathcona Horse) and Korea
The recreated British Army Regiment at the Halifax Citadel Fortress, is funded by Heritage and
Parks Canada - comprised of university students for the most part. The MacDonald Trust Fund
(MacDonald Tobacco Co.) have funded restored historic regiments in the Quebec City garrison
- a French Colonial Regiment and in Toronto, at Fort York, but I don't know if they are still
involved in the worthy activity. MacLeod


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> Where does out present quote of " 3 square a day" a day come form?



Meals used to be served on square shingles. Three squares meant three meals.


----------



## Spr.Earl

recceguy said:
			
		

> Meals used to be served on square shingles. Three squares meant three meals.



Wrong,I'll  re phrase the question.
"Which Service does the expression come from and why?"


----------



## Spr.Earl

gun plumber said:
			
		

> What city in Canada was the site of a 3 day riot that involved service personal and resulted in the "city of glass"?


Lot's of good correct history about the Riot but WHY did it happen?
Answer me that.


----------



## stukirkpatrick

> Lot's of good correct history about the Riot but WHY did it happen?



apparently, theres only a bunch of theories about it, including that the sailors were just fed up with Halifax and its citizens, and had been claiming for months that they would trash the city on VE Day...  but the definite spark was probably the thousands of sailors loose in the streets with closed liquor stores/places of entertainment.

What would you expect to happen?    :skull:


----------



## jmacleod

The VE Day Riot in Halifax NS was caused as Kirkpatrick has said, by the general feeling of the
members of the Canadian Forces   of the period, fed up with Halifax, it's crowded streets, theatres
restaurants, lack of drinking facilities, and hostility from the good citizens of what was then, an ultra
small "c" conservative city. I was 15 years old, and saw the "riot" at first hand - it was a very cheeful
"riot", mostly focused on a lot of people, military and civilians looking for something to drink - the
city in it's wisdom shut down every conceivable place to buy a drink. The actual looting was the
inevitible result of the breakin at Oland's Brewery, and came much later and for the most part was
undertaken by Halifax citizens (mostly   teenagers, I went to school with some of them) Admiral
Murray CNS RCN was faulted, but he could not have held his personnel in quarters or on ships on
VE Day - remember this was not a professional Navy, most of the sailors and officers in the RCNVR
RCNR etc. came from areas of Canada far away from the oceans. People too forget that the Battle
of the Atlantic, hunting the elusive U-Boats was very demanding, very uncomfortable and very
dangerous. There are several good books about the "riot" and the DND RCN official documents
are available. MacLeod


----------



## stukirkpatrick

Which version of the Ross Rifle (there were many) did Canadian soldiers ultimately take to the trenches of the First World War (to their misfortune)?


----------



## para paramedic

Is it the Ross Rifle Mk II and Mk III?

Taken from http://www.firstworldwar.com/atoz/rossrifle.htm
Ross Rifle
Updated - Sunday, 6 October, 2002

Considered one of the most maligned rifles in military history, the Canadian Ross rifle was used and subsequently abandoned by Canadian forces during the First World War.

Long and heavy the Ross, first developed in 1903 and named after its developer Sir Charles Ross, was considered by many a fine target rifle.  It was found however to perform poorly in wet and muddy trench conditions (by this time adopted in its Mk II 1905 and Mk III 1910 guises).

Under such conditions troops found it ill-suited to rapid fire scenarios, frequently locking, and complaints rapidly reached its chief sponsor, the Canadian Minister of Militia and Defence Sam Hughes.  He nevertheless continued to believe in its strengths even following professional advice to the contrary from Sir Edwin Alderson.  The furore over its performance ultimately contributed to Hughes' fall from office the following year.

Examples abounded of Canadian troops throwing down the Ross in preference to the British Lee-Enfield, although the Ross continued to be used for training purposes in both Canada and England.


----------



## stukirkpatrick

Correct, it was the Mark III that most widely saw service, at least until they were ditched in favour of Lee Enfields.

Lets not let this thread die, eh?   :warstory:


----------



## Spr.Earl

Who were the largest of the Allied Special Forces of the 2nd World War.?

P.S. How many V.C.'s were awarded with in this Force?


----------



## Danjanou

7th Indian Division 14th Army aka as the Chindits ( 7 Bdes of 3-4 Bns each incluidng 1 US Regiment)?


----------



## Spr.Earl

Correct.


----------



## Danjanou

Ok follow up to that one. Which of the following nationalities/troops did not serve in the Chindits?

British, 
Burmese
Gurkhas
Indians
Africans
Americans


----------



## stukirkpatrick

Indians?


----------



## Spr.Earl

I say Indian's also.

Heres is the Official Link for the Chindits.
As a kid I remember my dads friend Johnny Burns was a member of the 13th Kings and he was a little bit buggerd up from the war as my dad said.

http://www.chindits.info/

I have had the Honour of seeing the Battle Honours of the Kings in the Anglican Cathedral in Liverpool
(King's Liverpool Regiment)
I'll post the photo I took of thier battle honour its not very clear.


----------



## Danjanou

Yup, both right. Sorry for the delay in posting. Ironic as the Chindits were officially drawn from the 17th Indian Division of 14th Army.

Earl, found an interesting piece of trivia re that Liverpool Regiment and the Chindits. I'll give you first crack at it and delay posting for a day or two.


----------



## Spr.Earl

Would that be members of the Regiment are all known as kingsman ?


----------



## Spr.Earl

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Yup, both right. Sorry for the delay in posting. Ironic as the Chindits were officially drawn from the 17th Indian Division of 14th Army.
> 
> Earl, found an interesting piece of trivia re that Liverpool Regiment and the Chindits. I'll give you first crack at it and delay posting for a day or two.


We are still waiting. 
Oh I'll for give you as C.R.S. is setting in.


----------



## Spr.Earl

Where was the only U.S. Coast Guardsman to win the Congressional Madel of Honour from?


----------



## stukirkpatrick

Vancouver

http://www.medalofhonor.com/DouglasMunro.htm


----------



## Spr.Earl

Correct.
Also his cousin who was in the RCAF was killed close to 1 yr and a day after Doug was killed.
I know his second cousin here in Van. and just only learned of this.


----------



## Bill Smy

Two questions:-

How many Canadian-born men have been awarded the US Medal of Honor? I define Canadian-born to include those geographical areas which are now part of Canada (for example, I count men born in Newfoundland before the colony entered Confederation).

Who is the only living Canadian-born recipient?


----------



## Bill Smy

> Two questions:-
> 
> How many Canadian-born men have been awarded the US Medal of Honor? I define Canadian-born to include those geographical areas which are now part of Canada (for example, I count men born in Newfoundland before the colony entered Confederation).



59 Canadian-born men won the MOH:--
US Civil War 33
Indian Campaigns 8
Spanish American War 9
WW II 1
Vietnam 1
Peace time awards 9



> Who is the only living Canadian-born recipient?



Peter C Lemon. Born Norwich, Ontario (just west of Toronto),   January 1950. Won the MOH 1 April 1970 in Tay Ninh Province, Vietnam. MOH presented at the White House by President Richard Nixon. Mr Lemon now lives in Colorado and is a businessman and author.


----------



## Art Johnson

While we are on the MOH.

1) How many American Service Men have won the medal twice for the same action?

2) Which famous American General's brother won the medal twice?


----------



## Art Johnson

Hmm, no takers. Five US Marines in WW I were awarded the Medal of Honor twice for the same action. The Marines fighting in Europe served under command of the Army and five were awarde the Medal of Honor by the Army. Not to be outdone the US Navy which is the parent corps of the Marines also awarded the men the Medal of Honor for the same action.

Ernest A. Janson       6 June 1918
Matej Kocak             18 July 1918
Louis Cukela             18 Juky 1918
John Henry Pruitt      3 October 1918
John Joseph Kelly      3 October 1918

General George Armstong Custer's younger brother Thomas Ward Custer was awarded the Medal of Honour twice during the Civil War. 3 April and 6 April 1865.


----------



## Spr.Earl

What was LRDG?
What ws thier Task?


----------



## Slim

Long Range Desert Group?

Hit and run, guerrilla-style raids on German supply lines in Africa during WW2?

Slim


----------



## Danjanou

Actually the LRDG were more of a strategic recce IIRC. That doesn't mean they didn'y fight, as I believe they adhered to the notion of sometimes fighting to obtain intel.

They did initially transport the SAS to their objectives which were hit and runs on enemy airflields.


----------



## Spr.Earl

Danjanou said:
			
		

> They did initially transport the SAS to their objectives which were hit and runs on enemy airflields.


Wrong the LRDG in the begining were just a Recce Group first made up of N.Z,then Brits and Aussies.
Thier mian job was just Recce with out contact,if came into contact they had F' off quick.
They watched main MSR's noted traffic etc in ther beginning.
It was later on that they made the decision too group and arm with lewis' and go deep in the desert attacking Air Fields.

The LRDG is what gave David Sterling the idea of the SAS but he thought of Air Borne Troops and he asked and got the help from the LRDG.

The first SAS job was a flop,it was a learining curve, as they missed the L.Z, had to march what x miles in and marched x miles out and failed badly, it was the LRDG that picked them up,after that the SAS adopted the LRDG tactics,vehicles etc and all was amalgamated making what we know as the SAS in the Desert in WWII

http://www.lrdg.org/


----------



## Spr.Earl

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Yup, both right. Sorry for the delay in posting. Ironic as the Chindits were officially drawn from the 17th Indian Division of 14th Army.
> 
> Earl, found an interesting piece of trivia re that Liverpool Regiment and the Chindits. I'll give you first crack at it and delay posting for a day or two.


Yes,the 14th was also known as the forgotten Army. 
Danjanou still waiting,is it that Battle Honours are hanging in the Anglican Cathedral in Liverpool?
Re the Kings?


----------



## Danjanou

Sorry, totally forgot about that one. :-[

The 13th Bn King's Liverpool were part of the first Chindit operation. The Bn was made up of men initially considered unfit for various reasons for frontline service. Most were over 30 years old and the Bn initially had been raised for garrison and home defence duties in England before being shipped first to the Middle East and then to India for a similar role.

After the initial Japanese success in Burma, infantry units, any infantry units were at a premium and the 13th were tasked as Chindits. It's posssible high command thought the whole idea was doomed and didn't want to waste a better Bn.

Naturally they performed exceptionally well, although the high casualty rate through disease etc meant that they were finished as a fighting unit. I believe many were used as instructors later on in the war.

Wingate was able to argue that if he could take over aged garrison troops and turn them into adept jungle fighters, then he could do it with anyone.


----------



## Spr.Earl

Thanks Dan.
Heres the next question.

When and why was "Outward Bound" created?


----------



## old medic

"Outward Bound was founded in the tumultuous waters of the North Sea during World War II,
to provide young sailors with the experiences and skills necessary to survive at sea." (http://www.outwardbound.com/history.html)

The first Outward Bound program was inspired by Dr. Kurt Hahn, a German educator, who responded to the needs of Lawrence Holt, head of the Blue Funnel Shipping Line, a merchant shipping company.

Holt's problem was this -- during World War II, young merchant seaman were not surviving as well as their older counterparts in lifeboat situations, after their ships had been torpedoed by German U-boats.


----------



## Spr.Earl

Correct,they put it down to lack of life experience as they were still young and had not had the life experience's of their older shipmates which resulted in lack of confidence and self doubt.


----------



## Danjanou

Ok this one should get a few dragging battered books off of the shelf.

Starship Troopers has more than it's share of fans here on the site. Let's see how much you really know. In the book, not the movie, what is the nationality of the main character Rico?


----------



## stukirkpatrick

I remember he spoke tagalog and WASNT from Buenos Aires, so was he from the Phillipines?  i havent read it in a while  :-\


----------



## Michael OLeary

My Google is slow tonight:



> STUDLYPINOY: You are correct about Johnny Rico's nationality being Filipino. Although the author never says directly that Johnny Rico is Filipino.
> 
> Johnny is quoted in the original novel as saying to Bernardo: "Tagalog, My native language." There you have it.



http://www.robotech.com/community/forum/read.php?id=1091279&forumid=12


----------



## Danjanou

Well that lasted about as long as I expected it would. ;D


----------



## stukirkpatrick

exactly 10 minutes to the second?   ;D

time to put my history class knowledge to good use - which governmental act during the 19th century first created the first paid volunteer force that was recognizable as the canadian militia?


----------



## Spr.Earl

You bugger!! 
I can't find it yet!!


----------



## Bill Smy

Kirkpatrick said:
			
		

> time to put my history class knowledge to good use - which governmental act during the 19th century first created the first paid volunteer force that was recognizable as the canadian militia?



I believe it was an act passed in 1813 by the Upper Canada Legislature to create the Incorporated Militia


----------



## stukirkpatrick

> I believe it was an act passed in 1813 by the Upper Canada Legislature to create the Incorporated Militia



Oops I should have specified - I was thinking of a more permanent act, as I believe the Incorporated Militia were disbanded after the war ended - the one im thinking of is more towards the mid-19th century


----------



## pbi

My guess is that it was the Militia Act of 1855? Cheers


----------



## stukirkpatrick

> My guess is that it was the Militia Act of 1855? Cheers


 correct! 

http://www.archives.mcgill.ca/resources/guide/vol2_3/gen06.htm



> In 1838 the regular garrison of British North America numbered over 13,000 men, but fell off to only about 3,000 in 1855 because of the high cost of maintaining such a force. The Militia Act of 1855 set up a new force of volunteers, not more than 5000 strong, which would be uniformed and armed and would undergo a short period of annual training. This volunteer force is the origin of the modern Canadian Army (Militia).


----------



## pbi

Heh Heh. Who said all this stuff in my head is useless? Ok....my wife did, but never mind about that. 

If I am not mistaken, it is this act that also represents the "official" start point for regimental lineages in the Canadian Army: no unit is actually alllowed to claim official descent or battle honours from any unit that pre-existed this date, even though units like the Queen's York Rangers and The Loyal Company (RCA) do. Is this correct?

Cheers


----------



## old medic

Name the first Canadian Infantry unit to land in France in WW2.


----------



## pbi

We're talking about the aborted operation in 1940, right?
Cheers


----------



## Danjanou

IIRC only 1st Brigade of 1st Div made it ashore (after Dunkirk) so that would be either RCR, 48th or Hasty Ps. Of them I'm going to guess the Plough Jockeys, don't know why (at work and no books to check) just a gut feeling.


----------



## old medic

Yes, we're talking 1940,  1st Division, 1st Brigade. 
The Hasty P's  and 4 Fd Amb were the first two units ashore.

Cheers.


----------



## pbi

Damn! I was going to say HastyP's: I remember now that _The Regiment _ tells the story of that fiasco.

OK-here's one: What Canadian Infantry unit was to have landed in Norway as part of the 1940 Narvik operation?

Cheers.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Not sure about Narvik, but the history of The RCR has a reference to the PPCLI and the LER being briefed as part of a the followup force going into Trondheim, but the initial landings were botched.


----------



## Danjanou

PBI that's what made me go with the Hasty P's, thank you Farley for making that such a memorable read that even 20 odd years later I remembered stuff.


----------



## pbi

Right you are Mike O: the PPCLI were in Scotland ready to embark, but the op was called off. I used the term "Narvik" because that term is sometimes used to describe the entire campaign in North Norway. When we were on AMF(L) in 1992(?) we did a battlefield tour of the operations in the vicinity of Bardufoss-Narvik: very interesting. Cheers.


----------



## Spr.Earl

The 5th Canadian Motorcycle Regiment,was converted and redesignated as what and what is their name to day?


----------



## Bill Smy

What is the first recorded use of a motorcycle for military message delivery?


----------



## Spr.Earl

Bill Smy said:
			
		

> What is the first recorded use of a motorcycle for military message delivery?



The first recorded use of a motorcycle for military message delivery occurred on 21 June 1913 when the General Officer Commanding, 2nd Division wrote to the Secretary Militia Council that Private T. Dawley, 44th Regiment (Lincoln and Welland), had been selected to serve as an orderly at Niagara-On-The-Lake Camp Headquarters: 

"for the reason that he brought to the camp with him his motorcycle. He rendered very efficient service, and did work which would have taken two mounted (cavalry) orderlies to perform. 
I therefore recommend that authority be granted for him to be paid the sum of $1.25 per diem (which is the rate of horse allowance) to recompense him for the use of his motorcycle in the public service. 

Repairs to the amount of $4.50 for piston and compensating rings, stand and frame stud, and time fitting were necessary. I recommend that this sum also be paid"

Private Dawley received a total of $17.00.


----------



## big bad john

What drink related to a motorcycle was invented in WW1?


----------



## Spr.Earl

Is this a U.K. question or Universal?


----------



## Spr.Earl

Grass Hopper?


----------



## Spr.Earl

give us a hint  ;D


----------



## big bad john

Drum roll please....and the answer is "SIDECAR"!


----------



## Spr.Earl

Whats in a Side Car then?


----------



## big bad john

Ledgand has it that it was first made by a Junior Canadian Staff Officer and his driver taking cover in a bar.  It was made with what was on hand.  Staff Officers in WW1 were mostly transported about in motorcycle sidecars, hence the name.

"Ingedients and Proportions are very important with this drink. Cointreau and fresh squeezed lemon juice are crtical to the Quality of the final product. Add the Brandy, Cointreau, and lemon juice to a shaker with ice, shake well, and strain into a well chilled cocktail glass. You can also wet the rim of the glass with the wedge of lemon, then coat the rim with sugar. Garnish with a twist of lemon peel."


----------



## Bill Smy

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> The first recorded use of a motorcycle for military message delivery occurred on 21 June 1913 when the General Officer Commanding, 2nd Division wrote to the Secretary Militia Council that Private T. Dawley, 44th Regiment (Lincoln and Welland), had been selected to serve as an orderly at Niagara-On-The-Lake Camp Headquarters:
> 
> "for the reason that he brought to the camp with him his motorcycle. He rendered very efficient service, and did work which would have taken two mounted (cavalry) orderlies to perform.
> I therefore recommend that authority be granted for him to be paid the sum of $1.25 per diem (which is the rate of horse allowance) to recompense him for the use of his motorcycle in the public service.
> 
> Repairs to the amount of $4.50 for piston and compensating rings, stand and frame stud, and time fitting were necessary. I recommend that this sum also be paid"
> 
> Private Dawley received a total of $17.00.



Correct. As usual.


----------



## clasper

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> The 5th Canadian Motorcycle Regiment,was converted and redesignated as what and what is their name to day?



Today they are the British Columbia Dragoons.



> ...Preparations for retraining as a mechanised unit were conducted throughout the early period of 1940 and culminated in the formation of the 5th Canadian Motorcycle Regiment (BCD). Subsequently, the unit was re-designated the 9th Canadian Armoured Regiment (BCD). As such it continued its training in Canada and England with tanks. In 1944, the Regiment deployed to Italy and played a prominent part in the advance north. In February 1945 the BCD were re-deployed to Northwest Europe with 2nd Canadian Corps and took part in the liberation of the Netherlands. After a period of garrison duty in Europe the Regiment was repatriated to Canada in 1946 and resumed the status of a Reserve armoured regiment.



http://www.army.dnd.ca/39CBG_HQ/bcd.htm


----------



## Art Johnson

When I was a young lad before WW II a chum of mine's Father used to regale us with exploits of daring do with his motor cycle during the Boer War. Maybe the operative word is Recorded or maybe it was just an old soldier's BS.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Art, 

A search of the rootsweb turned this up:

a. The first successful motorized bicycle was built in France 1901, and 
British and US manufacturers first produced motorbikes in1903. So motor 
cycles could not have been used on operations during the Second Boer War of 
1899 - 1902.

c. The British Army had made some experiments with bicycles but they were 
not successful in South Africa. The horse was the main means of transport, 
including the carriage of messages and despatches.

Also this:

Bike riders in the Boer war.

 Both sides used bike riders in very small numbers -- There is some good
background on a it
Military History Journal - Vol 4 No 1
BICYCLES IN THE ANGLO-BOER WAR OF 1899-1902
by D.R. Maree @ http://rapidttp.com/milhist/vol041dm.html


----------



## old medic

Here's a interesting one, Who said the following ?

"...of course the people don't want war.... But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship ...the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country"


----------



## ackland

Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials 

A quick google search and there is was first link. Interesting quote coming from him though. ;D


----------



## Spr.Earl

clasper said:
			
		

> Today they are the British Columbia Dragoons.
> 
> http://www.army.dnd.ca/39CBG_HQ/bcd.htm



Corect.


----------



## Spr.Earl

When was The National Inventory of Canadian Military Memorials Web site created?


----------



## Spr.Earl

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> When was The National Inventory of Canadian Military Memorials Web site created?


The answer is April 2nd,2001.

Now heres one for our own Boat People.

Boarding Parties

How do you differantiate between a Merchant Deck Officer and a Engineering Officer with in the Commonewealth?


----------



## Spr.Earl

Another question but for our Fly Boy's.
Who was the first Canadian Air Force Squadron to reach Great Britain in WW II?


----------



## condor888000

Would it be 242 Sqn?


----------



## Jonny Boy

i think it was 400 sqd or 401.


----------



## condor888000

After realizing 242 was an all Canadian unit flying with the RAF I wish to change my answer to 1 sqn RCAF. I've also found referance to two army cooperation sqn's of Lysanders but I can't find any unit numbers for them...


----------



## Jonny Boy

i was talkin to my grandpa (ex ww2 halifax/ lancaster flight enginner in rcaf). he told me that there was not enough canadians to form there own squadrons and bomer groups. so what they did was they went in to the RAF untill later in the war when the canadians got enough men to form there own group.


In the first month of World War II there was only fifteen squadrons that could be brought up to strength and mobilized - twelve for home defence and three for overseas service. For aircraft there were 20 different types totaling 230 aircraft, over half were training or transport aircraft, and only nineteen 19 Hurricanes and and  10 Fairey Battle light bombers could be considered front line aircraft.

On the first of January 1944 the RCAF reached its peak wartime strength of 215,200 all ranks (including 15,153) women, 104,000 were in the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan, 64,928 were serving at home and 46,272 were serving overseas. There were 78 squadrons in service: 35 overseas, 43 at home (of which six had been ordered overseas).



*Canadian officials proposed that a RCAF fighter and bomber group should be formed, however it was determined that due to the geographical nature of the RAF's fighter groups an all Canadian fighter group would require between 40 and 50 fighter squadrons and this was determined to be unfeasible. In the end only a Canadian bomber group was formed this being No. 6 (RCAF) Group.*


----------



## Spr.Earl

condor888000 said:
			
		

> After realizing 242 was an all Canadian unit flying with the RAF I wish to change my answer to 1 sqn RCAF. I've also found referance to two army cooperation sqn's of Lysanders but I can't find any unit numbers for them...



You are so close but so far.

Here's the answer.



No.110 (Army Co-Operation) Squadron sails from Halifax for Britain where it arrives on 25 February, the first Canadian air force squadron to reach Great Britain.

The arrival date was 25/02/40 

P.S. Zoomie and Inch you owe me a ride.  ;D


----------



## condor888000

So it was one of those Lysander sqn's...


----------



## big bad john

"With it went one army co-oper- ation squadron, No. 110 Squadron, RCAF, equipped
with Westland Lysanders."


----------



## condor888000

You're in Ottawa eh? If you ever are at the aviation museum check out the Lysander. There's a few holes in the wing from people failing to realize the canada flag's about to hit the wing...


----------



## Bfalcon.cf

Here's a question:
What was the name of last captured u-boat of ww2?


----------



## stukirkpatrick

U-505? 



- edit - thats the last captured u-boat that made it back without sinking that I could find


----------



## clasper

U-234?

I seem to remember a History Channel program I saw a few years ago about this boat, which was carrying U-235 (the nuclear fuel, not the submarine) to Japan at war's end (the sailors laughed because the SS came on board with crates that were labelled for the wrong boat...)  They didn't surrender until a few weeks after VE day.


----------



## Troopasaurus

U-1024 if i remember correctly, but it sank in tow.


----------



## Spr.Earl

Bfalcon.cf said:
			
		

> Here's a question:
> What was the name of last captured u-boat of ww2?



I won't answer but will give others a chance.

Heres the best U Boat web site ever.
Full of everything you need to know.

http://uboat.net/index.html


----------



## Jonny Boy

here is a question. what was the name of the rsm of the RCASC at the end of the 2nd world war?


----------



## Art Johnson

Name the only woman to have served in the Royal Marines?


----------



## big bad john

An easy one, anyone else want to try?


----------



## big bad john

Hannah Snell Born 1723 
She originally enlisted in General Guise's Regiment at the age of 19, and deserted. In 1745 in Portsmouth she joined the Marines (one assumes that no medical took place!), and fought at the battle of Pondicherry, India, two years later. Distinguishing herself during the siege, and subsequent storming of the forts, it is alleged that she was wounded no less than twelve times. Apparently she tended her own wounds rather than have her sex revealed. Her secret survived intact, and she was honourably discharged at Wapping in 1750. She subsequently ran a public house called "The Widow in Masquerade"


----------



## Cloud Cover

In 2005, these military ranks are entitled to the princely sum of 8 Swiss francs per month. Who are they?


----------



## Art Johnson

The Swiss Guard at The Vatican. Just a guess.


----------



## Cloud Cover

Nope.


----------



## Long in the tooth

whiskey 601 said:
			
		

> In 2005, these military ranks are entitled to the princely sum of 8 Swiss francs per month. Who are they?


My guess would be Swiss non active (parading) reservists still eligible for call up in emergency.  Any points for that?


----------



## jmacleod

Chris Wattie of the National Post wrote an article recently on Sgt. Aubrey Cousens, Victoria Cross
comparing his exploits in winning the VC to "John Wayne". The late actor John Wayne is a film icon
but did not serve in the US Military, although he is considered a major hero to the USMC because
of his role as Sgt. Stryker in "Sands of Iwo Jima". But the reason for this query is that according to
the Post, little is known about Sgt. Aubrey Cousens, Queen's Own Rifles (QOR"s) - all his relatives
have passed on for instance. Former Toronto MP Barnett Danson PC served as an NCO and later
an officer in the QOR's - suggested he be contacted for information - however perhaps those who
read this, have access to additional information about this Ontario VC winner. MacLeod


----------



## big bad john

jmacleod said:
			
		

> Chris Wattie of the National Post wrote an article recently on Sgt. Aubrey Cousens, Victoria Cross
> comparing his exploits in winning the VC to "John Wayne". The late actor John Wayne is a film icon
> but did not serve in the US Military, although he is considered a major hero to the USMC because
> of his role as Sgt. Stryker in "Sands of Iwo Jima". But the reason for this query is that according to
> the Post, little is known about Sgt. Aubrey Cousens, Queen's Own Rifles (QOR"s) - all his relatives
> have passed on for instance. Former Toronto MP Barnett Danson PC served as an NCO and later
> an officer in the QOR's - suggested he be contacted for information - however perhaps those who
> read this, have access to additional information about this Ontario VC winner. MacLeod


This what I could find:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/26847.45.html


----------



## Cloud Cover

Worn Out Grunt said:
			
		

> My guess would be Swiss non active (parading) reservists still eligible for call up in emergency.  Any points for that?



Nope. 
Hint:  If you are in the military of any country, it could happen to you.


----------



## Bfalcon.cf

court marshal?


----------



## Michael OLeary

whiskey 601 said:
			
		

> In 2005, these military ranks are entitled to the princely sum of 8 Swiss francs per month. Who are they?



Prisoners of War?

Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm



> Article 62
> 
> Prisoners of war shall be paid a fair working rate of pay by the detaining authorities direct. The rate shall be fixed by the said authorities, but shall at no time be less than one-fourth of one Swiss franc for a full working day. The Detaining Power shall inform prisoners of war, as well as the Power on which they depend, through the intermediary of the Protecting Power, of the rate of daily working pay that it has fixed.


----------



## Cloud Cover

Bingo!! Below the rank of Sergeant, payis set at 8 Swiss francs per month, and of courseincreases with rank from that point. The purpose is to be able to purchase personal items from the (mandatory) canteen, such as soap etc.


----------



## Radop

Bill Smy said:
			
		

> Found this explanation:
> 
> http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/faq/ddaydef.htm



"It is unnecessary to state that H-hour is on D-day."

I find quotes like this very funny.   If it is unnecessary, then why say it.   lol   Sorry, had to throw in my two cents.


----------



## Radop

Which Canadian made weapon suffered from the problems below.

"Its magazine held only five bullets; the rod that the soldier had to pull to get the cartridge out soon grew red-hot; and the bayonet fixed to the barrel would sometimes fall off during firing.  The wpn was also very long (50 1/2 inches), but it weighed 450 grams less than the shorter and safer British wpn that would replace it."


----------



## Fishbone Jones

The Ross rifle


----------



## AmmoTech90

Who were the first Ammunition Technical Officers in Canada in that they were responsible for ensuring the serviceability of ammunition?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Too long to post:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/admmat/logbranch/handbook/Volume8/chap2_e.htm


----------



## AmmoTech90

Correct.

The actual inspections to assure that "the powder was dry" were carried out by officers of the Royal Artillery. Mr. Horton was informed in a letter dated 22 May 1796 that "an inspection team made up of Maj. Desbrisay, Capt. Straton, Capt. Wright and Lt.Cox would be inspecting the stocks of powder".


----------



## Radop

recceguy said:
			
		

> The Ross rifle



hopefully we can avoid that fate with 13 billion in funding, lol


----------



## RossF

Go Ross Rifle!


----------



## Fishbone Jones

RossF said:
			
		

> Go Ross Rifle!



Read about it first. For what we needed, it was a POS.


----------



## RossF

recceguy said:
			
		

> Read about it first. For what we needed, it was a POS.



I know what the Ross Rifle is, and what it did/didn't do for Canada. I said Go Ross Rifle, because my name is Ross. I'm not too good at cracking jokes.


----------



## Danjanou

Ok time to once more revive the thread that will not die.

The Royal Scots are the senior Line Infantry Regiment in the British Army (or at least were until amalgamated with the other Scottish/Highland Regiments into the new â Å“super 5 Bn Regiment). Originally known as the 1st Foot, they also claim to be the oldest Line Infantry Regiment in Britain 
(Guards Regiment are senior).

Question: What is the â Å“nicknameâ ? of the Royal Scots and why did they get it?


----------



## stukirkpatrick

Pontius Pilate's bodyguard?  That goes a ways back


----------



## Danjanou

Right, now for the second part, why?


----------



## Spr.Earl

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Right, now for the second part, why?



The Royal Scots regiment in the British army was nicknamed "Pontius Pilate's Bodyguard" after one member boasted that if they'd been on guard at Christ's tomb, Jesus would never have gotten out.

I started this thread it;s us old farts who come up with the answers and questions on the whole lets hear somthing from you youngn's


----------



## Danjanou

Of course we know all the questions and answers. We were fricken there. ;D

Close there bud, mind rumour has it you were the right marker on their first parade. ;D ;D

The Royal Scots claim that they are the direct descendents to the Roman Legion recruited and raised in "Britian" when the Romans were there and later went on to serve elsewhere in the Roam Empire.

Re Christ's tomb, supposedly a French Regiment also claims the same distinguished lineage from a Legion raised in Gaul by Julius Cesear. When told this the Brits response was they must have been on guard duty at Christ's tomb and that's why the body went missing.

Yeah I know I'm going straight to Hell for that one.


----------



## Spr.Earl

Trust the French to try and out do us. 

O.k. heres one when were the first recruiting posters issued for the RCN and were?


----------



## bossi

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> O.k. heres one when were the first recruiting posters issued for the RCN and were?



Hmmm ... as I've just discovered (by accident);

On March 29, 1909, a Member of Parliament, George Foster, introduced a resolution in the House of Commons calling for the establishment of a Canadian Naval Service. The resolution was not successful; however, on January 12, 1910, the government of Prime Minster Sir Wilfrid Laurier took Foster's resolution and introduced it as the Naval Service Bill. After third reading, the bill received royal assent on May 4, 1910, and became the Naval Service Act, administered by the Minister of Marine and Fisheries at the time. The official title of the navy was the *Naval Service of Canada * (also Canadian Naval Forces), and the first Director of the Naval Service of Canada was Rear-Admiral Charles Kingsmill (Royal Navy, retired), who was previously in charge of the Marine Service of the Department of Marine and Fisheries. ... and ...

... The Naval Service of Canada changed its name to Royal Canadian Navy on January 30, 1911, but it was not until August 29 that the use of "Royal" Canadian Navy was permitted by King George V. ...

So, I'm going to guess ... the first recruiting posters went up in Foster's riding in 1909 (but, technically, I'm also guessing they were for the "Naval Service of Canada").
The first "true" RCN posters probably went up in 1911 ... but where ... ?
I'm going to guess Esquimalt, since that's where HMCS Rainbow was first stationed.

Wikipedia only has so much info ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Canadian_Navy


----------



## Gramps

"Who were the first Ammunition Technical Officers in Canada in that they were responsible for ensuring the serviceability of ammunition?"

Here is some more info related to this subject. It is an article about my Greatgrandfather who has never been mentioned (as far as I know) in any official records. I have tried to find more info but there is none out there. 

http://vanward.bccc.com/~rweat03/colonelweatherbie.html


----------



## larry Strong

I have a question. Were the members of the RNR awarded the Newfoundland Volunteer Service Medal?


----------



## Danjanou

larry Strong said:
			
		

> I have a question. Were the members of the RNR awarded the Newfoundland Volunteer Service Medal?




Well theoretically if a member of the Royal Naval Reserve (RNR) was from Newfoundland during WWII he would have received said decoration as per the criteria:

http://www.vac- acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=collections/cmdp/mainmenu/group04/nvsm

However The Royal Newfoundland Regiment (RNFLDR) never saw service in WWII. The unit was disbanded after WWI and although the Nfld Government offered to raise it again in 1939, but the Brits declined, most likely due to the atrocious casualties suffered by the Regiment in 1914-1918. Two Regiments of Royal Artillery (57th and 166th RA IIRC) were raised instead. Their members would have been entitled to this decoration



Sorry those of us who served in it get touchy about the inappropriate abbreviation especially mainlanders like me who after posting there accidentally call it RNR (ouch) :-[


----------



## larry Strong

Thank you for that, I apologise for the abbreviation, I was rushed at the time, I was not aware that The Royal Newfoundland Regiment, (have more time at the moment ) was disbanded during WW2. I have seen the documentary on the Battle in WW1, such a waste of men for nothing :'(. I ask because my Father received his but he was in the RN.


----------



## Spr.Earl

bossi said:
			
		

> Hmmm ... as I've just discovered (by accident);
> 
> On March 29, 1909, a Member of Parliament, George Foster, introduced a resolution in the House of Commons calling for the establishment of a Canadian Naval Service. The resolution was not successful; however, on January 12, 1910, the government of Prime Minster Sir Wilfrid Laurier took Foster's resolution and introduced it as the Naval Service Bill. After third reading, the bill received royal assent on May 4, 1910, and became the Naval Service Act, administered by the Minister of Marine and Fisheries at the time. The official title of the navy was the *Naval Service of Canada * (also Canadian Naval Forces), and the first Director of the Naval Service of Canada was Rear-Admiral Charles Kingsmill (Royal Navy, retired), who was previously in charge of the Marine Service of the Department of Marine and Fisheries. ... and ...
> 
> ... The Naval Service of Canada changed its name to Royal Canadian Navy on January 30, 1911, but it was not until August 29 that the use of "Royal" Canadian Navy was permitted by King George V. ...
> 
> So, I'm going to guess ... the first recruiting posters went up in Foster's riding in 1909 (but, technically, I'm also guessing they were for the "Naval Service of Canada").
> The first "true" RCN posters probably went up in 1911 ... but where ... ?
> I'm going to guess Esquimalt, since that's where HMCS Rainbow was first stationed.
> 
> Wikipedia only has so much info ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Canadian_Navy



The Posters were issued on Feb.2/1911 in all Post Offices across the Nation.


----------



## larry Strong

Can some one tell me how many Newfoundland Volunteer medals were issued? Dad's is 1839 so I know that many were handed out.


----------



## Spr.Earl

larry Strong said:
			
		

> Can some one tell me how many Newfoundland Volunteer medals were issued? Dad's is 1839 so I know that many were handed out.


Larry I tried to find how many were issued and alas came up empty handed.
I suggest that you contact the Prov.Gov. on the Rock.

Next question.

What term was given to Men who were killed by sniper fire or shrapnel while in the trench's in WWI?
(Not Assaulting,just at rest in the trench's)


----------



## Jonny Boy

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> Next question.
> 
> What term was given to Men who were killed by sniper fire or shrapnel while in the trench's in WWI?
> (Not Assaulting,just at rest in the trench's)



unlucky bastard. lol


----------



## Spr.Earl

-Hutch- said:
			
		

> unlucky bastard. lol


Hutch I take umbrage with your retort and I think those who died this way would also,as many of the casualties were caused by both sniper and shrapnel in the Trench's in WWI.

The term was at the time was Trench Wasteage
Yes Trench Wasteage!!!

Makes one feel all fuzzy and warm inside eh?!
What do we call it to day?


----------



## Jonny Boy

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> Hutch I take umbrage with your retort and I think those who died this way would also,as many of the casualties were caused by both sniper and shrapnel in the Trench's in WWI.
> 
> The term was at the time was Trench Wasteage
> Yes Trench Wasteage!!!
> 
> Makes one feel all fuzzy and warm inside eh?!
> What do we call it to day?



well i am sure they were frequently called it. but how is calling them trench wastage any better. knowing you were just waste and did not die doing anything.


----------



## Bill Smy

June is the anniversary of the first time that English infantry wore the red coat in battle. Name the battle and the year in which it took place


----------



## BDG.CalgHighrs

Bill Smy said:
			
		

> June is the anniversary of the first time that English infantry wore the red coat in battle. Name the battle and the year in which it took place



1640s during that Cromwell thing IIRC. The name of the battle escapes me.


----------



## Bill Smy

The infantry of Cromwell's new model army wore red coats at the Battle of Naseby in June 1645. Red dye was the cheapest dye they could buy, so we have the historic Redcoat.


----------



## BDG.CalgHighrs

Bill Smy said:
			
		

> The infantry of Cromwell's new model army wore red coats at the Battle of Naseby in June 1645. Red dye was the cheapest dye they could buy, so we have the historic Redcoat.



Cheers, that was driving me crazy.


----------



## Bill Smy

There is a morse code message along the rim of the Canadian 1943 victory 5 cent piece. What does it say? The message is not reproduced on the 2005 victory nickle.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

"We Win When We Work Willingly"


----------



## Spr.Earl

In WW 2 ,which service suffered the most casualties per capita?


----------



## Acorn

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> In WW 2 ,which service suffered the most casualties per capita?



In general, or specifically Canadian? If the latter it was the Merchant Marine. If you don't count them as a "service" it was the RCAF.

Acorn


----------



## Bill Smy

OK! Recceguy. You got it in less than an hour of my posting the question.  

You must have been working on your Queen's Scout badge back in the 1950s when I was. :warstory:


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Bill,

Your showing our age!


----------



## Spr.Earl

Acorn said:
			
		

> In general, or specifically Canadian? If the latter it was the Merchant Marine. If you don't count them as a "service" it was the RCAF.
> 
> Acorn



My hat off to you Acorn.


----------



## Spr.Earl

This is the 200 Anniversary of Trafalgar heres some questions for you;

Where was Lord Nelson born?

What was Nelson's first ship called? 

How did HMS Victory get her name? 

How much did she cost to build?


----------



## Joe_McSweeney

1) Bernham Thorpe, Norfolk.
2) His first ship was the _Raisonnable_.
2a) His first command was HMS _Boreas_.
3) The HMS Victory was so named for the"Year of Victories" in 1759 in Quebec, Minden, and the naval engagements of Lagos and a couple others.
4) It cost approx. 64,000 pounds, and used 6,000 trees. Mostly oak, but some elm and pine as well.

Here is a bonus question for you...

At the battle of Trafalgar, the HMS Victory was able to fire three broadsides in under two minutes. 
What was the average load time for a gun crew of the era???


----------



## Spr.Earl

3 min? I  forget the rate of fire of gun crews.
Heres a site with a list of wounded,killed among the 1,600 names listed with trade,it's neat reading on the far left gives there campain service.

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/Trafalgar/


----------



## Joe_McSweeney

I thought it was closer to 5 minutes, however, 3 full broadsides in under two... that is impressive.

Neat link.

Joe.


----------



## Acorn

Joe_McSweeney said:
			
		

> 3) The HMS Victory
> 
> At the battle of Trafalgar, the HMS Victory



Your post was good Joe, but this is like scratching a blackboard for me:

"The HMS" = "The His Majesty's Ship"

"The" in front of HMS (or HMCS) is just wrong.

Acorn


----------



## Joe_McSweeney

The offending 'the' was an affect of a post at 1:30 in the morning... 

And I found that HMS Victory without a the in front was also refitted in the late 1780's for approx. 74,000 pounds on top of the original 64,000.

As for interesting history, wasn't the Royal Newfoundland Regiment annihilated on this day back in 1916? 900+ men went from their own secondary trenchworks to the front line and lost half of their numbers. Then went over the top again and were decimated. 

If I remember correctly, 65 reported for duty the next day. Also as a point of "honour", when the commander was asked why the attack had failed, he answered, "Dead men can take no ground."   Then another quote from an eyewitness on how the men carried themselves; "They went on into the fury of shells and bullets with their chins tucked to their chest as if they were merely guarding themselves from a blizzard snow."


----------



## Danjanou

You're right Joe. The Regiment was decimated that day which is why in Newfoundland July 1st is also Rembrance Day. 

Incidentally they were just the Newfoundland Regiment then. The Royal prefix was earned a year later at Cambrai.


----------



## Spr.Earl

And the only Regiment to earn the Honour of " Royal " in time of War.


----------



## Bill Smy

In what campaign did British regiments carry the Brown Bess into battle?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

From the National Army Museum website:

*Who or what was 'Brown Bess'?*

The 'Brown Bess' is the popular, but inaccurate, name applied to several different models of smooth-bore flintlock musket, which were used by the British Army from the late seventeenth century to the early nineteenth century.

'Brown' may relate to the 'browning' of the barrel (a process which helped to prevent rusting), or to the colour of the musket's walnut stock (earlier weapons commonly had their stocks painted black). 'Bess' may derive from 'buss', a shortened form of 'harquebuss' (arquebus), the predecessor of the musket.


----------



## Island Ryhno

Brown Bess
(The Army Musket -- 1700-1815)
In the days of lace-ruffles, perukes, and brocade
Brown Bess was a partner whom none could despise -- 
An out-spoken, flinty-lipped, brazen-faced jade,
With a habit of looking men straight in the eyes -- 
At Blenheim and Ramillies, fops would confess
They were pierced to the heart by the charms of Brown Bess. 

by Rudyard Kipling (1865-1936)


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Sorry Bill, didn't mean to hijack your question. Just wondered at which point during it's approx 150 year run you wanted us to zero in on?


----------



## Bill Smy

My goof!

I meant to ask-- In what campaign did British regiments "LAST" carry the Brown Bess into battle?


----------



## Joe_McSweeney

Well, if it was used until 1815, it would have been last used in the 100 days campaign to thwart Napoleon. This would have included the Battle of Waterloo. However as military refitting is rarely an immediate occurrence, I would guess at it last being used well into the mid 1820's.


Speaking of the Battle of Waterloo, Who was The second in command for Napoleon during the 100 days Campaign?
What did this person do to win/lose the Battle of Waterloo?
And what was the name given to the engagement?

Joe.


----------



## Island Ryhno

Marshal Ney was given overall command of the attacks at Waterloo. Ney made a number of mistakes, such as; sending cavalry without artillery or infantry support to often pointless battles. He led the Imperial Guard in the wrong direction. He allowed Jerome's attack on Goumont to escalate into a major battle that ate up large parts of II corps, which could have been used elsewhere. Although not really his fault, the formations used in d'Erlons initial attacks allowed them to be destroyed by artillery.  :warstory:


----------



## Danjanou

Actually Ney lost the campaign/battel two days earlier when he failed to seizr the vital crossroads at Quatre Bras. Had he done so Wellington would not have been able to withdraw his army in good order to fight at Waterloo on the 18th. 

Ney's forces reached the cross roads at about the same time as the advance guard of Netherlands/Nassau troops. Had he been more aggressive he could have swept them aside before the first British/Hanoveran units arrived (Picton's Division) to reinforce them.

Ironically two days later he would make up for this "cautious" behavious with his rash and impulsive Cavalry attacks against Wellington's centre on the ridge at Waterloo. He launched over a dozen unsupported Cavalry attacks against the Allied Infantry (26 Bns) formed in squares and failed to break them, losing both French Cavalry Corps in the process.

I personally think however that the main reason Napoleon "lost" at Waterloo was the weather. Had it not rained the day and night before the battle on June 18th he would have won. Because it did rain , the ground was too wet for him to move his Artillery around until the ground dried out. Napoleon was an Artillery General and more often than not his massed batteries won the day for him. The battle did not begin until after 11:00 am that day, not 8:00 when he wanted to start. Had the battlel begun three hours earlier , and even if everything else had happened as it had, the disaster at Hougoumont which kept Rielle's Corps pinned down on the left, the destruction of D'Erleon's Corp by Picton's Division and the Heavy Cavalry charge, Ney's impulsive actions, the battle still would have ended three hours earlier, before the Prussians arrived.

Wellington would have been forced to retreat and he would have needed at least two days to reorganize his shattered forces to fight again. By that time Napoleon would have been able to rest his army and turn and fight and probably beat Blucher on the 19th.


----------



## Island Ryhno

Agreed!


----------



## Danjanou

And who says that Military History Degree from MUN ain't worth nothing? 8)


----------



## Island Ryhno

It also doubles well as a place mat for Black Horse  ;D


----------



## Danjanou

Ok let's try and put this back on track. 

As I said two brigades of British "Heavy" (medium actually) Cavalry destroyed D'Erleons Corps at Waterloo. One was the Household Brigade what was the name of the other brigade?

Bonus points Why was it called that?

Bonus point Pt deux what units were in that Brigade?

Bonus point Pt trois, what units made up the Household Brigade?


----------



## Island Ryhno

The Royal Scots Greys(or The Bird Catchers) was the other regiment, so named because of the grey horses that they rode upon and of course the other name due to the capturing of the eagle! "Ces terribles chevaux gris! Comme il travaillent!" (Those terrible grey horses, how they strive!) - Napoleon
Included in the charge on that day were the 1st Royal Dragoons, 2nd Royal Scots Greys and 6th Inniskilling Dragoons. As a side Scots Greys were led by Sergeant Charles Ewart.
The household brigade was made up of the 1st and 2nd Life Guards and Royal Horse Guards.

Could it be I got all the points?


----------



## Danjanou

Well I'll give you part points there. 

The Brigade was referred to as the â Å“Union Brigadeâ ? as its three units were made up of English, Scottish and Irish units. (1st Royal Dragoons, 2nd North British Dragoons and 6th Inniskilling Dragoons)

You also missed a unit in the Household Brigade. As each of the three units you noted were Household regiments they were required to leave a Squadron back in England for ceremonial duties. The 1st Dragoon Guards was added to the Brigade to bring it up to strength.

Close enough for Government work though bye. Go treat yourself to a couple of wobbly pops at the Rob Roy.


----------



## Island Ryhno

You know, you might teached me sumthin yet my son! This is a great thread.


----------



## Bill Smy

British units last carried the Brown Bess into action during the Indian Mutiny, 1857 (Richard Holmes. Redcoat:The British Soldier in the Age of Horse and Musket)


----------



## jmacleod

Here is an interesting question - DND PR report that "five American's serving in the Canadian
Army won the Victoria Cross" - can this be correct? Further details on the DND site today 5
July 2005 MacLeod


----------



## Bill Smy

That's correct. All First World War awards.

Bellenden Seymour Hutchinson
William Henry Metcalf
George Henry Mullin
William Henry Seeley
Raphael Louis Zengel


----------



## Michael OLeary

Gordon Corrigan, in his book Mud, Blood and Poppycock, provides some background to this:



> "The American army [in 1917] had a system of campaign medals, but no bravery awards except for the Congressional Medal of Honour (dating from 1862) and merit certificates. The Distinguished Service Cross and Distinguished Service Medal were therefore authorised by Congress, and the law changed to permit American soldiers to accept French and British decorations."


----------



## Island Ryhno

Here are a couple from WWII;

What is the abbreviation for the Nazi party?

What was the message (coded) sent by Admiral Halsey to Admiral Mitscher on Guadalcanal as permission to proceed in the plan to shoot down the plane carrying Japanese Admiral Yamamoto on April 18, 1943?


----------



## baboon6

The answer to question 1 is NSDAP- German abbreviation for National Socialist German Workers Party


----------



## Island Ryhno

Excellent, that is correct! NSDAP! The answer to the second question, as it seems to be a stumper is; "It appears the peacock will be on time. Fan his tail"  ;D


----------



## Spr.Earl

In morse what was the BBC's opening of the news for Europe durining WWII?


----------



## -rb

dit-dit-dit-dah? 

In morse,  ...-  , or the letter *V* for victory?


----------



## Bill Smy

What is considered the "greatest defeat in the history of the British Army"?


----------



## Acorn

Isandlwana.

Acorn


----------



## Cloud Cover

Singapore?


----------



## Michael OLeary

That "greatest defeat" phrase seems to be pretty common:

http://africanhistory.about.com/library/thisweek/bl-tw01-4.htm



> 22 Jan 1879 	Anglo-Zulu War of 1879: Isandlwana
> The British Army suffers its *greatest defeat* in Africa when 24,000 Zulu warriors overrun a British camp of 1,700 near Isandlwana mountain. Over 1,300 of the British force was killed, with only 60 Europeans surviving.



http://www.1914-1918.net/mesopot.htm

Mesopotamia - 





> The early successes in the river delta were misleading; more and more troops were sent to the Mesopotamia theatre, for operations towards Baghdad which stretched the supply lines to the limit. There was a serious difference of opinion between London, India and the Commander of the force, regarding the role of the army. The fomer saw it as defensive; the latter two as offensive with a view to capturing Baghad. The campaign was muddled: the attitudes and complacency disastrous. The advance plodded on, until a resounding defeat in November 1915 in front of Ctesiphon led to headlong retreat to Kut-al-Amara. The army in Kut became surrounded and besieged; eventually 9,000 (3,000 British and 6,000 Indian troops) surrendered five months later - the *greatest defeat* and loss in British military history up to that point.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/dunkirk_spinning_04.shtml

Dunkirk - 





> n the early summer of 1940 the government had to deal with the *greatest defeat* ever suffered by the British army, which resulted in the most dangerous situation the country had faced since the summer of 1805. It had to change news stories that told of Anglo-French successes in Belgium between 10-14 May, with stories which would prepare the public for the possibility of defeat.



http://www.thehistorynet.com/wwii/blgatesofdelhi/



> The Japanese drive into Burma was foreshadowed by their rapid advance at the beginning of the war. As the British hero of Burma, Lt. Gen. (later Field Marshal) Viscount William Slim, recalled: â Å“The British Empire, with its Indian and Australian comrades, lost Hong Kong, Malaya and Singapore. This was the *greatest defeat* in the history of [the] Empire.â ?



http://www.warbooks.com.au/IndividualBooks/singapore1942.html



> The surrender of Singapore on 15 February 1942, with the capture of over 120,000 men, was the *greatest and most humiliating defeat* in British history and the high point of Japanese expansion in South-East Asia. It graphically exposed the military weakness of the British Empire and its inability to defend its Far Eastern colonies. The defeat left Australia exposed to Japanese invasion, its protection in future dependent on American arms.


----------



## Bill Smy

My answer would be the fall of Singapore


----------



## Acorn

I'll stick with Isandlwana:

A modern force, equipped with the best weapons of the time (artillery and breech-loading rifles) was defeated by an Iron-Age tribal force equipped with hand-weapons (they didn't even use bows). Sure, they were outnumbered, but so was the force at Rorke's Drift.

Singapore was also a great(bad) defeat, however the force balance was closer, and both sides were much closer technologically.

Acorn


----------



## Brad Sallows

My vote goes with the Strategic Defence Review.


----------



## Spr.Earl

In what year was the term "Sapper" adopted?


----------



## couchcommander

1856 for the rank in canada I think. 

(or so http://www.army.gc.ca/1combat_engineers/HISTORYPAGE.htm says )


----------



## Spr.Earl

Correct.


----------



## Joe_McSweeney

The rank of sapper may be from 1856, However I think the term is much much much older than that. It came from 11-12 century Europe, from the french word sappier, I am not exact on the spelling nor the annunciation. 

What they would do is tunnel/ trench up the enemy castle and burrow under the walls, which were supported by saps, or big logs, then they would either a) blow them up, or b) the less dramatic setting them on fire. Both of these would bring the rampart crashing down, or at the very least, critically weakened.


And for something completely different, 
Who was the first English leader to have an army of "Redcoats"?
What was the conflict?
And for extra, why red?


----------



## Bill Smy

Joe:-

And for something completely different, 
Who was the first English leader to have an army of "Redcoats"? Cromwell
What was the conflict? English Civil War
And for extra, why red? Cheap


----------



## Spr.Earl

How many Cap Badges to date have our Corps of Engineers worn? 
(Mr Smye I know you know,keep stum bitter.)


----------



## Spr.Earl

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> How many Cap Badges to date have our Corps of Engineers worn?
> (Mr Smye I know you know,keep stum bitter.)


No takers?
Our officail is 6 style's of cap badge but what all forget is the Anglo version of to-day's badge which makes it seven.
The Anglo version only lasted about a year untill it was realised it was not a bi-lingual cap badge.


----------



## Spr.Earl

In WWII there were (oops ) 3  Red phones in England i.e the hot line!
Where were they?


----------



## baboon6

Cabinet War Rooms?


----------



## Spr.Earl

No.


----------



## Bill Smy

Which British Prime Minister, after his first Cabinet meeting, said: "An extraordinary affair. I gave them their orders and they wanted to stay and discuss them."


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Bill Smy said:
			
		

> Which British Prime Minister, after his first Cabinet meeting, said: "An extraordinary affair. I gave them their orders and they wanted to stay and discuss them."



Arthur Wellesley, Duke of Wellington


----------



## Bill Smy

Wow! Recceguy, that was quick! And correct!


----------



## Spr.Earl

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> In WWII there were (oops ) 3   Red phones in England i.e the hot line!
> Where were they?


Two were in Churchills Office,one to Liverpool,H.Q. for Western Approach's and vice versa.
The other Red Phone was a direct line to Pres. Roosevelt.


----------



## Island Ryhno

All about Barbarossa!

On what date did Barbarossa start?

In which city, across the Volga from Stalingrad, did Russian Generals make a temporary HQ and supply base?

What was the codename for the German attempt at breaking the Sixths Army encirclement at Stalingrad?

What wast the codename for the Soviet attempt to counteract the previously mentioned?


----------



## Edward Campbell

Island Ryhno said:
			
		

> All about Barbarossa!
> 
> On what date did Barbarossa start?



11 May 1189 he set out, from Germany, headed for Palestine; he died, _en route_ just over a year later, crossing the River Saleph (now the GÃƒÂ¶ksu) in modern Turkey.


----------



## Island Ryhno

Mr Campbell my friend you are reaching waaaay back on me. Sorry I should have clarified, Operation Barbarossa.  ;D But that is quite the historical knowledge my friend. I'm amazed.  ;D


----------



## Roy Harding

Island Ryhno said:
			
		

> Mr Campbell my friend you are reaching waaaay back on me. Sorry I should have clarified, Operation Barbarossa.   ;D But that is quite the historical knowledge my friend. I'm amazed.   ;D



Island Ryhno - if you think _THAT's_ amazing, have a look at some of Mr. Campbell's OTHER posts.

I'm learning a TON from this man on another thread - he's a treasurehouse of information.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Island Ryhno said:
			
		

> Mr Campbell my friend you are reaching waaaay back on me. Sorry I should have clarified, Operation Barbarossa.   ;D But that is quite the historical knowledge my friend. I'm amazed.   ;D



I couldn't resist.  Sorry for highjacking the thread.


----------



## Acorn

The urge to comment on Edward's "time in" is being supressed. I think Ben-Hur may have been his Transport Sgt.  ;D


----------



## bossi

Acorn said:
			
		

> The urge to comment on Edward's "time in" is being supressed. I think Ben-Hur may have been his Transport Sgt.   ;D



... you mean, "back when Centurion was a rank, not a tank" ... ?


----------



## Slim

bossi said:
			
		

> ... you mean, "back when Centurion was a rank, not a tank" ... ?



Or, perhaps, the elephant that he rode was an animal, not a tank... 

...Of course he would've had to have been German. I guess you could steal one but its rather difficul to swipe something that moves at roughly the speed of a glacier! ;D


----------



## baboon6

1. 22 June 1941
2. don't know offhand
3. Operation Winter storm
4. Operation Uranus


----------



## clasper

2. Krasnaya Sloboda


----------



## Island Ryhno

All correct, except for #4, which was operation Little Saturn. Operation Uranus, was the initial attack by the Soviets, Op Little Saturn, was the counter to the Germans Op Winter Storm. Isn't war history great?  ;D


----------



## Spr.Earl

What 5 words ended WWII,who said them and where?


----------



## Island Ryhno

This is a wild guess, but Emperor Hirihito said "Japan accepts an unconditional surrender" Aug 15th 1945 on national broadcast radio.?? Like I said, a guess.


----------



## Spr.Earl

Not bad guess but no cigar.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Getting up from his chair at 9:25 a.m. MacArthur walked to the microphone and in a steely voice said: *"'These proceedings are now closed." * 

This was after accepting the Japanese surrender aboard the Missouri.


----------



## TCBF

Probably.   MacArthur would not have accepted anyone elses decision, he would have just kept on fighting.  So - it had to be him.

Tom


----------



## Spr.Earl

Yes Tom recceguy got it right.
Dug out Doug's final word's were 'These proceedings are now closed." ended WWII.
But he has not stated where though?


----------



## Spr.Earl

What was the name of the Japanese Snr Nco who lowered the Union Jack after the Capture of Singapore and who holds the flag today?


----------



## Kat Stevens

The deck of the Big Mo in Tokyo Bay, wasn't it?


----------



## Spr.Earl

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> The deck of the Big Mo in Tokyo Bay, wasn't it?


That's right Kat.


----------



## Spr.Earl

What was the name of the Japanese Snr Nco who lowered the Union Jack after the Capture of Singapore and who holds the flag to day?
Yes the flag was recoverd,battle has it's twist's and turn's and the flag is alive and well in the U.K.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

recceguy said:
			
		

> Getting up from his chair at 9:25 a.m. MacArthur walked to the microphone and in a steely voice said: *"'These proceedings are now closed." *
> 
> *This was after accepting the Japanese surrender aboard the Missouri.*



Yes, I did say where it happened  ;D


----------



## Island Ryhno

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> What was the name of the Japanese Snr Nco who lowered the Union Jack after the Capture of Singapore and who holds the flag to day?
> Yes the flag was recoverd,battle has it's twist's and turn's and the flag is alive and well in the U.K.



I don't know the answer to your question Spr.Earl, but this story is great. I know the story of Cyril Wild(junior officer), who took the Union Jack down from the governors house in Singapore. Wild was a Japanese speaking brit, who was a p.o.w for four years, during which time he managed to keep that Union Jack hidden and brought it back with him from the war. Currently it resides  In the college chapel at Charterhouse school in Sussex.  You can read about Cyril Wild in the book "The tall man who never slept" by James Bradley(who was a p.o.w with wild in singapore)


----------



## Bill Smy

Captain James Barry has been described as "the most remarkable medical officer" of his era, entering the British army as a hospital assistant in 1813 and rising to be inspector-general of the Army Medical Department in 1858.

In addition to fighting a duel, and being "the most skilled of physcians", why else is this officer considered "remarkable"?


----------



## Island Ryhno

Cpt James Barry was remarkable because he was a she. "The Irish newspaper Saunders's News Letter on 14 August 1865 reported Dr. Barry death and revealed that the doctor was in fact a female who had masqueraded as a male throughout her life." (Saunders news letters)  8)


----------



## Bill Smy

Go to the head of the class!  

I thought this would stump you guys  -- at least for a couple of days


----------



## Island Ryhno

Most people are aware of the caribou monument at Beaumont Hamel that is dedicated to The Royal Newfoundland Regiment. Did you know that there are four more memorial monuments featuring the caribou as homage to  The Royal Newfoundland Regiment. Where are the other four located and what action were they placed there for?


----------



## Bill Smy

Name the twentieth century Canadian Prime Ministers who had military service (regular or reserve).


----------



## Art Johnson

Diefenbaker, Pearson, Trudeau (ROTC) come to mind.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Island Ryhno said:
			
		

> Most people are aware of the caribou monument at Beaumont Hamel that is dedicated to The Royal Newfoundland Regiment. Did you know that there are four more memorial monuments featuring the caribou as homage to  The Royal Newfoundland Regiment. Where are the other four located and what action were they placed there for?






> The five battlefield parks are at Beaumont Hamel (near Albert), Gueudecourt (near Bapaume), Monchy-le-Preux (near Arras), Masnières (near Cambrai), and Courtrai (or Kortrijk) in Belgium.



http://www.cdli.ca/beaumont/battle.htm

Battles (from the Regiment's battle honours, the one that I can match through place names (open to correction or refinement):

Albert (Beaumont Hamel), 1916
Arras, 1917  	9 April â â€œ 4 May 1917
Cambrai, 1917  	20 November â â€œ 3 December 1917
Courtrai  	

http://regimentalrogue.com/battlehonours/bathnrinf/50-rnfldr.htm


----------



## Bill Smy

Art, go to the head of the class, although it's getting pretty crowded up there.  

I believe these are the only three. Rather than ROTC, is it not the COTC (Canadian Officers' Training Corps) in  which Trudeau was enrolled?


----------



## Bill Smy

Who said:

" I have ate of the King's salt, and therefore I conceive it to be my duty to serve with unhesitating zeal and cheerfulness when and where my King or his government may think proper to employee me."


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Sir Arthur Wellsley, later the Duke of Wellington


----------



## Bill Smy

Another "head of the class" member. Recceguy, I thought it would take at least a day for someone to come up with the correct answer. You did in 10 minutes!


----------



## Acorn

The "Iron Duke's" sayings are pretty widely available, if not known.


----------



## Spr.Earl

Island Ryhno said:
			
		

> I don't know the answer to your question Spr.Earl, but this story is great. I know the story of Cyril Wild(junior officer), who took the Union Jack down from the governors house in Singapore. Wild was a Japanese speaking brit, who was a p.o.w for four years, during which time he managed to keep that Union Jack hidden and brought it back with him from the war. Currently it resides   In the college chapel at Charterhouse school in Sussex.   You can read about Cyril Wild in the book "The tall man who never slept" by James Bradley(who was a p.o.w with wild in singapore)



 I have the copy of The International Express dated ,23 - 29 Aug. 2005 which is a U.K. paper and on page 15 the heading is " Tributes to Our Burma stars on a day of tears",there is a photo of 81 yr old John Nunnely holding a Union flag with Japanese charactors on it saying " Celebrating the Fall of Singapore" and it's even signed but not state where it was taken down from.
In the article it states that " The flag was hauled down by Sargent Major Yuchiyama,one of the conquering troops" also a very nice picture of Countess Mountbatten with Joaanna Lumley,very nice Lady the Countess.


----------



## RiflemanPhil

When referring to the "four deuces", what (or who) am I referring to. Hint, post 1900


----------



## Michael OLeary

4.2" mortars


----------



## Cloud Cover

This 16 year old bluffed his way into the navy in WW2 serving as a tin can sailor in the Pacific theatre. Following the war, he took up film acting and built a succesful career. He played roles in several war films regarding WW2, including war movies where he worked  alongside John Wayne, Henry Fonda and Sean Connery. Can you name this actor, name at least one war movie that he played a role in, and name at least one war movie where he rejected the leading role because he did not want to be seen as glorifying war.


----------



## STA Gunner

I got all your criteria except one.

Rod Steiger joined the US Navy.  He fought in the Pacific.  He was in the Longest Day with all your aforementioned actors.  He turned down the role of Patton in the eponymous film.

I just can't get his age when he joined the Navy.

If I'm right, next one.  A bit easy:  Who won the Canadian VC during the Japanese attack of Hong Kong?


----------



## Bill Smy

WO2 John Robert Osborn, a Company Sergeant Major in the Winnipeg Grenadiers.


----------



## Cloud Cover

Thats right STA.


----------



## larry Strong

Are the questions here, restricted to Canadian Mil History?


----------



## Danjanou

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> Are the questions here, restricted to Canadian Mil History?



Nope. No real hard and fast rules. Post it and give the others a fair ammount of time depending on the difficulty of the question to ry and answer it.


----------



## stukirkpatrick

What tactic did the American colonists use to successfully take Louisbourg in 1745?


----------



## larry Strong

They landed 8k west of the fort, at "Fresh Water Cove in a *flanking* manouver, and prececeded overland to the series of low hills overlooking the west walls of the fortress.


----------



## Danjanou

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> They landed 8k west of the fort, at "Fresh Water Cove in a *flanking* manouver, and prececeded overland to the series of low hills overlooking the west walls of the fortress.



Or as the French said they cheated, because all those new guns and wall and things were facing the wrong way. Just like that whole Maginot line thing too. ;D

For the record I am in no way casting disparging remarks on my French Canadian brethern here.


----------



## stukirkpatrick

Correct - as well, they also turned the French's own artillery against the fortress, and bombarded it with New England shells that were pre-developed to fit the french guns  8)


----------



## redleafjumper

Here is an easy one. What US hollywood actor served in bombers in WW2 and retired as a reserve Brigadier General?


----------



## Danjanou

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> served as in bombers in WW2


??? : 

Does this mean thay attached props and bombs to him and made him fly over the Ruhr?

Jimmy Stewart retired as an USAF Brig Gen, but as far as I know he always stayed inside the plane.  8)


----------



## redleafjumper

Yes, it's Jimmy!  Sorry about the typos, the brain is composing faster than the fingers can type.  (or is it decomposing...?)

Here's another, perhaps a little more challenging:

Who wrote:  "Dead battles, like dead generals, hold the military mind in their grip and Germans, no less than other peoples, prepare for the last war."


----------



## Michael OLeary

Dead battles, like dead generals, hold the military mind in their death grip, and Germans, no less than other peoples, prepare for the last war. â â€ Barbara Tuchman


----------



## Michael OLeary

Who was the Left Hand Man of the Line?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Michael,

Are you talking about the SQ's spot on parade? Or something historic?


----------



## Michael OLeary

Historic.


----------



## redleafjumper

Is this Nelson's flagship at Trafalgar?


----------



## Michael OLeary

Nope, wrong Service, wrong war.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

The Crimea?


----------



## Michael OLeary

Nope.


----------



## redleafjumper

Was it the Left-hand Zulu killed in Allan's Wife?  (Zulu Wars)


----------



## Michael OLeary

Although an entertaining guess, still incorrect.


----------



## TCBF

That would be the shortest man, when sizing in single rank, right?

 ;D

Tom


----------



## Michael OLeary

I'm afraid not.


----------



## larry Strong

How's about a weeeee little clue


----------



## redleafjumper

Is this a reference to a specific individual at a specific event, or is it a reference to a particular tactical role?

For example, the left hand man in a phalanx (hoplites or other ancient infantry) is the one who is responsible for shielding the left flank.  In some formations left handed soldiers were chosen for that position so that they could fight to defend that flank.  

This is a tough one, I have even started cracking into World War One and Two regimental histories...


----------



## Michael OLeary

Hmmm, difficult to offer a clue without giving it all away.

British Army, not specific to a particular Regiment or individual.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Over 24 hours without even a new guess, I figured someone would at least get this one with a SWAG:



> LEFT-HAND MAN OF THE LINE: A name sometimes jestingly used for the sentry on the last post westward of the British line in Flanders. It is related that on one occasion, when the British Commander-in-Chief visited the locality, he asked casually of an astonished soldier if he was aware that he was the left hand man of the extreme left of the British line. The information left the man quite unimpressed, and after the officers had gone a sergeant took it on himself to explain. "You 'eard wot ' Aig said ? Well, it means that if 'e gave the order' Right wheel! ' you'd go on runnin' for the rest of yer blinkin' life!"  - Edward Fraser and John Gibbons, Soldier and Sailor Words and Phrases, 1925


----------



## Michael OLeary

How did the term "Bomber" come into use, what term wwas previously used, and who settled the dispute to dictate that "Bomber" replaced it?

And a wee clue for context:



> "... At this juncture Lieut. PENNIMAN, finding himself alone and unable to find any other fit men near him, proceeded to a point about R.29.a.8.5. where the Regimental Bombers, together with the P.P.C.L.I. were bombing up the ZOLLERN GRABEN.  Here I understand the machine gun which had done considerable damage to us was put out of action by our bombs. ...  - extract from CEF War Diary of The RCR, September 1916


----------



## redleafjumper

Bombers were those soldiers who carried grenades or bombs for assaulting enemy positions.  While your reference is a first war one the acitivity is much older.  The Grenadiers of the old line regiments were also bombers.


----------



## redleafjumper

What is the difference between a pelisse and a dolman and what are they?


----------



## Michael OLeary

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Bombers were those soldiers who carried grenades or bombs for assaulting enemy positions.  While your reference is a first war one the acitivity is much older.  The Grenadiers of the old line regiments were also bombers.



Ah, but what decision was made to differentiate mere Bombers from Grenadiers, and what prompted the requirement for such a decision? And who was involved in the final decision?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> What is the difference between a pelisse and a dolman and what are they?



The pelisse and dolman were heavily braided parts of hussar's flamboyant outfit. The pelisse was worn over the dolman in cooler weather, while during a warm day only the dolman was used.


----------



## muskrat89

> The pelisse and dolman were heavily braided parts of hussar's flamboyant outfit. The pelisse was worn over the dolman in cooler weather, while during a warm day only the dolman was used.



Do you still have yours, rg??


----------



## redleafjumper

The dolman and pelisse answers were fine.  The outstanding answers are the origin of the change from the grenadier company to the bombers.

Trench raiding in the first war dictated a change of tactic from the line grenadier company to raiding parties who would sneak up on enemy trenches, lob in a few bombs and take off.  It couldn't be just one company in a battalion that was responsible for throwing bombs.  The first instance that I am aware of is the 5th Battalion 1st Canadian Division at Ploegstreet.  ("Trench Raiding" in A Rifleman Went to War, by H.W. McBride.)  The trench mortar was also a handy bomb thrower and there were many innovative people who were making their own.  As to who had the idea, you've got me so far.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Keeping in mind that battalion and brigade organizations evolved throughout the war, sections of Bombers were part of a Battalion's establishment, and they would be assigned to Companies, or given specific tasks in their own section organizations. From my readings thus far of the War Diary of The RCR (I'm up to early 1917), their employment seemed to be integrated within the company assignments, but there was also grenade and bombing training for the rest of the battalions' soldiers as well, and other men designated for rifle grenades. The weapons and crews of Trench Mortars and Stokes Guns were attached from the Brigade Trench Mortar Company.

And as for the formalization of the term during the First World War:



> BOMBER: How the term "bomber" came to be officially adopted in the War is curious. When, after the first Battle of Ypres, hand-grenades came into general employment, the parties of men trained to use them--a certain number in each battalion--were given the name of "grenadiers." The Grenadier Guards objected, claiming that they had a prescriptive right exclusively to the name, as having been specially conferred on them after Waterloo to commemorate their part in over-throwing Napoleon's Grenadiers of the Guard. The Guards, says Sir Frederick Ponsonby, in his History of the Grenadiers in the War, were "much perturbed", considering it as "an infringement of their privileges and misleading." The Colonel in command of the First Battalion Grenadier Guards protested to the War Office against the "usurpation". After a protracted controversy a final appeal was made to the King, and in May, 1916, it was officially announced that "at His Majesty's expressed wish the word 'Bomber' should be universally substituted for 'Grenadier' ". - Edward Fraser and John Gibbons, Soldier and Sailor Words and Phrases, 1925


----------



## redleafjumper

Thanks Michael, an illuminating and interesting history of the bomber role.  Incidentally, I was kicking myself for not thinking of the left hand man answer.  Here's one to ponder:

Who was the leader of the first British Military Mission to Tito and his partisan army?


----------



## STA Gunner

Randolph Churchill

Son of the elder statesman.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Who was the leader of the first British Military Mission to Tito and his partisan army?



Sir William Deakin, led the first British military mission to Tito's headquarters. The codename for the mission was "Operation Typical," and it consisted of "a six-man joint SOE-Military Intelligence" team.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

At the start of the German-Soviet invasion of Poland in 1939, one particular group of soldiers were the first troops to see action.   Their uniforms were Polish.   The same group (though different individuals) again were the first ones to see action in June 1941 during the invasion of the Soviet Union; they wore the uniform of the Red Army.

What nationality was this group, and what were they called?


----------



## redleafjumper

Sir William Deakin is the correct answer.  Randolph Churchill served with (didn't lead) the subsequent mission to Yugoslavia.


----------



## Danjanou

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> At the start of the German-Soviet invasion of Poland in 1939, one particular group of soldiers were the first troops to see action.   Their uniforms were Polish.   The same group (though different individuals) again were the first ones to see action in June 1941 during the invasion of the Soviet Union; they wore the uniform of the Red Army.
> 
> What nationality was this group, and what were they called?


Without resorting to my google-fu powers I'm going to take a wild stab and say The Brandenburgers, the German Army's specialists in long range insertions, behind the lines sneak and peak types, dressing up as nuns and all round dirty tricks boys.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Without resorting to my google-fu powers I'm going to take a wild stab and say The Brandenburgers, the German Army's specialists in long range insertions, behind the lines sneak and peak types, dressing up as nuns and all round dirty tricks boys.



I was hoping you would be on vacation. You're correct - though I hope the question was correct; I think they were the ones who wore Polish outfits.  I know there was an SS unit involved also in a seperate incident, I think they faked the attack on a radio station that was the alibi to go to war.

It's hard to frame these without making them accessible by google, so if I seem vague, I'm trying to be.

There was a movie set in WWII shot in the 60s. which featured the Brandenburg commando - sort ofs, (complete with cuff titles on their uniforms as I recall).  One of the lead actors became famous later as the first public figure to announce he had AIDs, which he died of in 1985.  The other lead actor, who died in 1994, played a World War One flying ace in another film.   What was the movie with the Brandenburgers in it, who were the two actors, and what was the WW I film he starred in?


----------



## Danjanou

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> I was hoping you would be on vacation.



I hope that's in reference to the fact you're aware I'm overworked  and will be going on a long overdue trip soon, and not because I know all the answers.  8)



> You're correct - though I hope the question was correct; I think they were the ones who wore Polish outfits.  I know there was an SS unit involved also in a seperate incident, I think they faked the attack on a radio station that was the alibi to go to war.


  

As far as I recall that's true they also went into Holland before the main force. IIRC they technically came command of the Abwerhe (sp?) and canaries before Hitler wasted them away in pointless missions in Russia. I think you're right they were SS there too.



> There was a movie set in WWII shot in the 60s. which featured the Brandenburg commando - sort ofs, (complete with cuff titles on their uniforms as I recall).  One of the lead actors became famous later as the first public figure to announce he had AIDs, which he died of in 1985.  The other lead actor, who died in 1994, played a World War One flying ace in another film.   What was the movie with the Brandenburgers in it, who were the two actors, and what was the WW I film he starred in?



Oh this one is easy

The movie was * Tobruk *_/ (1966). Parts of it were also used for the film *Raid on Rommel * with Richard Burton.

Rock Hudson (who died of AIDs in 1985)  played the Canadian Engineer Captain and George Peppard who also played the arrogant ace in the *Blue Max* played the Brandenburger Hauptmann.

Peppard and his men weren't really Brandenburgers though, my question who were they?

Who played the British Commando CO?

Who played his RSM?
_


----------



## Bill Smy

Which Canadian Governor General and Commander-in-Chief rose in rank from Ensign to Field Marshall wothout once resorting to purchase?


----------



## STA Gunner

Just a shot in the dark, because he was a stand up guy...

Viscount Byng?


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Danjanou said:
			
		

> I hope that's in reference to the fact you're aware I'm overworked  and will be going on a long overdue trip soon, and not because I know all the answers.  8)
> 
> 
> As far as I recall that's true they also went into Holland before the main force. IIRC they technically came command of the Abwerhe (sp?) and canaries before Hitler wasted them away in pointless missions in Russia. I think you're right they were SS there too.
> 
> Oh this one is easy
> 
> The movie was * Tobruk *_/ (1966). Parts of it were also used for the film *Raid on Rommel * with Richard Burton.
> 
> Rock Hudson (who died of AIDs in 1985)  played the Canadian Engineer Captain and George Peppard who also played the arrogant ace in the *Blue Max* played the Brandenburger Hauptmann.
> 
> Peppard and his men weren't really Brandenburgers though, my question who were they?
> 
> Who played the British Commando CO?
> 
> Who played his RSM?
> 
> _


_

I already googled this so I will hold off.  

Here's hoping you get that vacation soon. ;D_


----------



## Bill Smy

STA Gunner said:
			
		

> Just a shot in the dark, because he was a stand up guy...
> 
> Viscount Byng?



If you accept that Ensign and 2nd Lieutenant are basically equivalent ranks, you're correct, STA Gunner. But I was thinking of another Governor General.


----------



## Danjanou

Bill Smy said:
			
		

> Which Canadian Governor General and Commander-in-Chief rose in rank from Ensign to Field Marshall wothout once resorting to purchase?



Field Marshal the Earl Alexander of Tunis (GG 1946-52)

http://www.gg.ca/governor_general/history/bios/alexander_e.asp


----------



## geo

Hmmm

Field Marshall Alexander?


----------



## Danjanou

geo said:
			
		

> Hmmm
> 
> Field Marshall Alexander?



"He was promoted to Field Marshal in 1944 after the capture of Tunis in 1943 and subsequently captured Rome in 1944."

(from the link I enclosed).

Mind I was alway under the impression that it was troops advancing out of the Anzio beachhead lead by the 1st SSF that captured Rome. Pretty daring for one middle aged senior officer to do it on his own. 8)


----------



## Bill Smy

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Field Marshal the Earl Alexander of Tunis (GG 1946-52)
> 
> http://www.gg.ca/governor_general/history/bios/alexander_e.asp



Well, I guess I goofed on this. But the key word in my question was "Ensign".


----------



## Bill Smy

I guess I should have done a bit more homework on this and worded the question better. The answer I was looking for was Sir John Colborne.

Of course, the purchase system was long gone by the time of Byng and Alexander.


----------



## reccecrewman

Where does the common saying "The whole 9 yards" come from?


----------



## armyvern

This is a good one...I'm not sure anybody really knows for sure..

I've heard it's origins come from the amount of material required to make everything from a gentleman's suit, a nun's habit, a Scotsman's kilt.
To the Miltary origins in WWII (pilots using 'the whole nine yards' of their ammo, to Vietnamese tribes assisting US Forces, to Navalyards claiming it as their own.
Not to mention the famous "total load of the cement truck."

I wonder?? Where did it really come from?? ???


----------



## Michael OLeary

The whole nine yards:-

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/411150.html



> At the outset it should be said that no one knows the origin, although many have a fervent belief that they do.





> These are some of the versions going the rounds: take your pick...
> 
> - It comes from the nine cubic yards capacity of US concrete trucks and dates from around 1970s.
> 
> - The explanation refers to World War II aircraft, which if proved correct would clearly predate the concrete truck version. There are several aircraft related sources, 1. the length of US bombers bomb racks, 2. the length of RAF Spitfire's machine gun bullet belts, 3. the length of ammunition belts in ground based anti-aircraft turrets, etc. No evidence to show that any of these measured nine yards has been forthcoming.
> 
> - Tailors use nine yards of material for top quality suits. Related to 'dressed to the nines'?
> 
> - The derivation has even been suggested as being naval and that the yards are shipyards rather than measures of area or volume.
> 
> - Another naval version is that the yards are yardarms. Large sailing ships had three masts, each with three yardarms. The theory goes that ships in battle can continue changing direction as new sails are unfurled. Only when the last sail, on the ninth yardarm, is used do the enemy know which direction the ship is finally headed.
> 
> - A mediaeval test requiring the victim to walk nine paces over hot coals.
> 
> If anyone has any hard evidence of this phrase being used before 1967, e.g. an appearance of the phrase in print, we would love to see it. Please post your feedback at the Phrase Finder Discussion Forum - but please, evidence not conjecture.


----------



## armyvern

Now that is the web-site that I needed when the instructor insisted on my 6s (during another inane topic to kill time) that this saying had originated because of the Vietnamese tribes which assist the US. 
Despite all the other suggestions mentionned by students (I myself mentionned the Scotsman kilt as that is what I've heard-but most insisted on the cement truck theory), he insisted that this was published in a book having to do with the War in Vietnam and therefore must be right.  ???


----------



## redleafjumper

The whole nine yards refers to the length of the ammunition belt for the .50 cal HMG (waist guns) in the B17 American Bomber of WW2.

What battle did Wellington consider his greatest victory and why?


----------



## Michael OLeary

Assaye

http://www.victorianweb.org/history/crimea/beck/4.html



> Wellington first made a name for himself as a military leader in India, where in 1802 he defeated a much larger enemy force. At the village of Assaye, *Wesley led 7,000 men and 22 guns in an audacious attack on an enemy force of 40,000 men and over 100 guns*. Was this not a foolhardy deed? One of his volunteer soldiers wrote later, "I can assure you, till our troops got the order to advance the fate of the day seemed doubtful; and if the numerous cavalry of the enemy had done their duty I hardly think it possible we could have succeeded" (quoted in Hibbert 1997, 42-43). Wesley carried the day, and for this victory he was named Knight of the Bath. When asked many years later which battle had been his finest, the Duke "was silent for about 10 seconds & then answered, 'Assaye'. He did not add a word" (Ibid.) If, perhaps, Twain did take an event from Wellington's experience in India and move it to the Crimea, in a curious reversal only a few years later another author fictionalized the charge of the Light Brigade â â€ and placed it in India (George Meredith's Lord Ormont, 1894). To say that Assaye was his greatest victory is an extraordinary claim, considering all his later triumphs in Spain, to say nothing of Waterloo. Still, one modern historian asserts: "Without question Assaye was the greatest of Arthur Wellesley's Indian victories" (Weller, 194).


----------



## redleafjumper

Michael, I'd sure hate to be in an ambush that you set up!  That was darn quick and as usual 100% correct.
Let's see how you do with this one:

What banned device, ruled to be a dangerous weapon of war, never killed anyone when used as designed?


----------



## Michael OLeary

Could you be referring to the bagpipes, under the Act of Proscription (1747)?

http://www.scotland.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=20680&pagenumber=4



> The Act of Proscription, passed in 1747, banned weapons of war and highland dress.
> 
> And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That from and after the first day of August, one thousand seven hundred and forty seven, no man or boy, within that part of Great Briton called Scotland, other than shall be employed as officers and soldiers in his Majesty's forces, shall on any pretence whatsoever, wear or put on the clothes commonly called Highland Clothes (that is to say) the plaid, philibeg, or little kilt, trowse, shoulder belts, or any part whatsoever of what peculiarly belongs to the highland garb; and that no tartan, or partly-coloured plaid or stuff shall be used for great coats, or for upper coats; and if any such person shall presume, after the said first day of August, to wear or put on the aforesaid garments or any part of them,
> 
> But it didn't ban gaelic. *It also didn't specifically ban bagpipes, as is popularly thought - although in the administration of the Act, bagpipes were considered a "weapon of war" and thus included. *When the Act of Proscription was repealed, proclamations were issued in English and Gaelic. I think the attitude of the English at this time as regards gaelic was one of ignorance and indifference, as the language remained the first language of many highlanders well into the 1800's. The depopulation of the Highands also undoubtedly contributed to the decline of gaelic.


----------



## geo

Have a bagpipe "open up" on you @ 5AM and tell me about it (sigh)

Some of the Chemical gasses used in WW1 had their roots in Agricultural fertilizers.
Believe the gas Zyclone B used by the Germans in WW2 also 1st designed and used for industrial purposes........

So - ised for purpose originaly designed - not dangerous.......... but killers nevertheless.


----------



## redleafjumper

Yes, another quick response - the great highland bagpipe - the weapon of war that doesn't kill.  Having opened up with them on a few folks myself, I have found that most of the danger is to the player!

What was the first rifle issued to the British Army and what was the first British Army rifle issued in any serious quantity?


----------



## reccecrewman

> The whole nine yards refers to the length of the ammunition belt for the .50 cal HMG (waist guns) in the B17 American Bomber of WW2.



That is the correct answer I was seeking.  It certainly is a question thats up in the air to be speculated about, but in the military context, this is the answer I was seeking.  Both the cement truck & scottish kilt theories have a good claim as well.

Cheers


----------



## larry Strong

First issued in serious quantities would be the "Brown Bess".


----------



## redleafjumper

The Brown Bess is not a rifle, it is a smoothbore musket.  A good effort though, anyone else?


----------



## geo

The Martini-Henry Rifle is a weapon of Empire. Unlike the Snider-Enfield it replaced, it was England's first service rifle designed from the ground up as a breechloading metallic cartridge firearm. It protected and served the British Empire and her colonies for over 30 years. This robust weapon utilized a falling block, self-cocking, lever operated, single-shot action designed by Friedrich von Martini of Switzerland. The barrel used the Henry Rifling System, designed by Alexander Henry. Henry Peabody, an American, was actually the father of the Martini action. His design utilized an external hammer to strike a firing pin for cartridge ignition. Mr. Martini's refinement of the design basically consisted of conversion to an internal coiled spring activated striker. Martini's improved design flourished and Mr. Peabody's is nearly forgotten. Later in the British Martini's career, other rifling patterns such as the Metford System and even a system devised at Enfield were adopted. It is therefore common to hear these weapons also referred to as Martini-Enfields or Martini-Metfords. The first Martini adopted for service in the British Army was the M-H Mark I, which entered service in June of 1871. There were an additional three main variations of the Martini-Henry Rifle...the Mark II, III and IV. There were also sub variations of these that are commonly called Patterns. In 1877 a Carbine version of the M-H was entered into service. There are five main variations of the Carbine Model: the M-H Carbine Mark I (a.k.a. Cavalry Carbine), the M-H Garrison Artillery Carbine, the M-H Artillery Carbine Mark I, the M-H Artillery Carbine Mark II, and M-H Artillery Carbine Mark III. Initially, British Military Martinis used the Short Chamber Boxer-Henry .45 Caliber black powder cartridge. The original cartridge case was made of a thin sheet of brass rolled around a mandrel, which was then soldered to an iron base. These cartridges were assembled by the orphaned children of British Soldiers, and were relatively cheap to produce. They were found to be vulnerable to being easily damaged, and produced inferior muzzle velocities. Later, the rolled brass case was replaced by a solid brass version which remedied both of these problems. There was also a Carbine version of the Boxer-Henry .45 Caliber cartridge. This round used a 410 grain bullet with 70 grains of black powder, instead of the 480 grain bullet and 85 grains of powder used in the infantry rifle load. The primary reason for the milder load was that the recoil of the rifle load was very punishing when fired in a carbine, and this was found to be the cause of many failures in prototype carbines. In an emergency, either load could be used in either weapon. When the advantages of small caliber, flatter trajectory, high velocity cartridges became evident, an experimental Martini in .402 caliber was designed. Known as the Enfield-Martini Rifle, these rifles offered superior ballistic performance compared to Martinis in .450 caliber. With the adoption of the .303 caliber service cartridge however, the British realized it would be a supply nightmare having to equip units with .450 Martini-Henry, .303, and .402 Enfield-Martini (not to mention pistol and Gating Gun cartridges as well). Thus, the .402 caliber Enfield-Martinis (of which thousands had already been built) were converted to .450 Martini-Henry caliber, and morphed into to what we know as the "A" and "B" pattern Martini-Henry Mark IV. "C" Pattern Martini-Henry Mark IV's were original manufacture weapons, not conversions from the E-M .402.


----------



## redleafjumper

A lovely rifle and a comprehensive answer, yet unfortunately not the correct one.  Anyone else?  I must confess that I carefully crafted this question so that it was not as google-friendly as some!  I suppose a clue could be that the firearm in question is not a metallic cartridge firearm...


----------



## Michael OLeary

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> What was the first rifle issued to the British Army and what was the first British Army rifle issued in any serious quantity?



The Ferguson Rifle (first issued), and the Baker Rifle (first significantly issued model). 

http://home.vicnet.net.au/~rifles95/rifle.htm



> The Ferguson rifle, designed in 1774, was the first English breech-loading rifle made for military use.



http://www.personal.usyd.edu.au/~slaw/SuesPage/baker.htm



> The Baker Rifle claims the distinction of having the longest service life of any rifle used by the British Army. It was in production from 1800 to 1838, and there are records of issues as late as 1841. It is even mentioned as having been used by troops in the Kaffir Wars of 1851.


----------



## geo

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> What was the first rifle issued to the British Army and what was the first British Army rifle issued in any serious quantity?



The Ferguson rifle, designed in 1774, was the first English breech-loading rifle made for military use. Colonel Patrick Ferguson submitted an order for the manufacture of 100 of these rifles used to arm a detachment in the American war. The rifles were used with great effect, but unfortunately Ferguson was seriously wounded in 1777, and was later killed. On his death General Howe had the Ferguson rifles placed in store. Following the cessation of hostilities, further trials with rifles were largely abandoned
... considering the usage 100 units - not a significant number.........

The Baker rifle.
The most successful barrel design was that of Ezekiel Baker, a London Gunsmith. While there are no records, it appears that Baker, in consultation with Coote Manningham of the new Rifle Corps, oversaw the development of the rest of the rifle around his barrel. While there were minor modifications over the years, this original pattern was recognisably the model for all Bakers over the weapon's 40 year life.

OK - concede that the Baker fits the bill sort of
followed by the Snyder Enfield, followed by the Martini Henry

that non metalic cartridge...... ugh!


----------



## redleafjumper

Good answers and very nearly complete ones.  However the rest of the story is that the British did issue German Jaeger rifles, about 1,000, to troops in the British Army in North America in 1776 at about the same time or slightly before the 100 Ferguson rifles were issued.  About 800 were made in England and 200 came from Hanover.  The Fergusons, while they were the first "breech-loading rifle" were not the first rifles - those 1,000 Jaegers were.

The Baker Rifle is of course the first rifle issued as a serious rifle in quantity and also one of the longest served  rifles in British service.  

On a different note, who was Ron Brittain?


----------



## Danjanou

Well the first thing my search engine turned up was this: http://pnwbands.com/everyday.html

Something tells me you weren't referring to the Bass player of an obscure 1970's band though.
So I would presume this is what you're looking for.

_As we were getting settled, the PMC (President of the Mess Committee) of the Guards OCTU's Sergeant's Mess very kindly extended to us an invitation to use their Mess facilities until such time as our full unit arrived and we set up a mess of our own. It was quite an experience - the Guards, of course, are some of the elite of the British Army - their Sergeants and Warrant Officers were all in the regular army - not "hostilities only" types such as we were. Unfortunately, this caused a few problems as time went by. 
I think the first thing they did that was very irritating was to refer to us always as "you ZZXXing Colonials."That phrase started more than one donnybrook. 

Their Regimental Sgt. Major was Ron Brittain - he was with the Grenadier Guards and was the second most senior RSM in the entire British Army. And, oh boy, did he know it!! He lived with his family in married quarters and went to and from the barracks on an army issue bicycle - the only man I ever knew who rode a bicycle sitting stiffly at attention. Some of our Dispatch Riders (who were a wild bunch at the best of times) no doubt had a bit too much to drink one day and ran along side of him on his bicycle - throwing their hats in the air and shouting "Ride 'Em Cowboy!!" He marched them all to the Guard House and threatened to throw away the key. _

From: http://www.dadswar.com


----------



## redleafjumper

Very close!  Regimental Sergeant Major Ronald Brittain, MBE, The Coldstream Guards, senior RSM in the British Army at retirement, loudest voice in the army.  He had just under forty years service, retired 1954.  His biography is in James Leasor's book "The Serjeant-Major".


What is the maximum number of World War Two stars, not counting bars, that could be awarded to an individual?  Which ones might carry bars and what are they?

(I'm really enjoying this thread!)


----------



## larry Strong

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> (I'm really enjoying this thread!)



Yes I am really enjoying this thread also. Not only that but I am reminded of an acronyym "RTFQ" ;D


----------



## Bill Smy

Hey Guys   I'm not a moderator, so I don't know whether it is appropriate for me to make this comment.

But, when you're replying, could you indicate right off the bat to what you're replying to. I read one submission on the Baker rifle and the next is on an RSM. I'm a bit of a dimwit, but it would be so much easier if there was some reference to the earlier message.


----------



## redleafjumper

Okay Bill, good point. When I am responding to what appears to be the previous post, I don't usually quote from it.  Perhaps my habit of providing the correct response to a question that I have asked and then prompty posing a new question might be a little confusing!  I'll try to post the referent in the future.  Sorry about that!


----------



## geo

Redleaf - might be an idea to start numbering the questions - that way it would be simple to make reference to that....

Just an idea - and you can use whatever number you want.


----------



## redleafjumper

Sure Geo, numbering the Question may also work.

Anyway, how about those World War 2 campaign stars?

1.  What is the maximum number of World War Two stars, not counting bars, that could be awarded to an individual?   Which ones might carry bars and what are they?


----------



## Danjanou

Bill good point. 

Ok guys if possible try and use the quote function to capture the original question or at least include part of it ie"RSM" or "Baker Rifle" as a prelude to your post. I realise that some posts/questions are obvious but others are not, ands ometime it gets hot and heavy in here, which to quote a certain ex-con "is a good thing."


----------



## geo

Campaign stars - how about......

1939 - 1945 Star (battle of Britain clasp)
Atlantic Star   (+air crew europe clasp)
Africa Star (Nrth Africa 42- 43 clasp )  (8th army OR 1st Army Clasp)
Air Crew Europe Star (Atlantic clasp)
Burma Star (Pacific clasps............
France & Germany Star (france & Germany clasp)
Italy Star
Pacific Star (Burma Clasp)
*8 star medals with distinct ribbons*
*8 different clasps *


----------



## reccecrewman

Only one unit reached their D-Day objective on June 6, 1944. One unit out of all allied forces landing on the beaches on D-Day! What Canadian Regiment has the claim to this?


----------



## redleafjumper

Only one unit reached their D-Day objective on June 6, 1944. One unit out of all allied forces landing on the beaches on D-Day! What Canadian Regiment has the claim to this?

That would be the the troop of tanks from "C" Squadron 1st Hussars commanded by Lt. McCormick who was supporting the Royal Winnipeg Rifles.

Geo's answer on Campaign stars is the one I was seeking.  It is interesting to note that only the Italy Star has no bar associated with it and only one bar per star could be worn.


----------



## redleafjumper

This should be an easy one:

What was the name and rank of the German officer who surrendered Holland in WW2, where and when did the official surrender take place and who received that surrender?


----------



## armyvern

The Instrument of Surrender was entered at Luneburg, Germany 4 May 1945 and became operative 5 May 1945.

Signed by below at 1830 hrs 4 May 45:

General Admiral Von Freidburg (signed first), then
Kinsel,
G. Wagner,
Poeeck,
Friedel

and was accepted by Field Marshall BL Montgomery.

Modified for: Can't spell 'general' today.


----------



## redleafjumper

Army Vern, that's an impressive answer about the end of WW2,  but it has little to do with the surrender in Holland, which is the event that the question asks about.


----------



## armyvern

Well sorry :-[ . I'm certainly no expert. I tried though!! I should phone and wake my Gramps up...he was there... maybe I can get him to talk about it finally.  :'(


----------



## redleafjumper

Well sorry . I'm certainly no expert. I tried though!!

Army Vern, it is still a thorough answer, it's just the wrong question; perhaps putting that good effort to the Holland question will return the correct answer.


----------



## armyvern

The Instrument of surrender was entered at Wageningen, Holland on 5th May 1945 in the Hotel de Wereld.

Although the surrender was agreed to at 2000hrs on 5th May 1945, no typewriter could be found and therefore the official document was not signed until the next day.

It was signed by General Von Blaskowitz and was accepted by the Canadian Corps Commander Lt General Charles Foulkes.


----------



## Bill Smy

Which National Hockey League icon served as a prosecuting lawyer at the Nurenberg War Crimes trial of Kurt Meyer?


----------



## armyvern

Clarence Campbell


----------



## armyvern

For whom is CFB Borden named and in which position did he serve?


----------



## Bill Smy

Boy that was quick, Armyvet. 

Clarence Sutherland Campbell, MBE  (1905-1984) was TOS 1 Bn The Lincoln and Welland Regiment 15 Feb44. He served as President of the NHL 1946-1977.


----------



## Bill Smy

armyvern said:
			
		

> For whom is CFB Borden named and in which position did he serve?



Named after Sir Robert Borden (1894-1937) Prime Minister 1914-1918.


----------



## armyvern

Good attempt but is not correct.  :-[


----------



## redleafjumper

Re: Surrender in Holland.  Good answer Armyvern.  Oberst General (Colonel-General) Johannes Blaskowitz surrended to Canadian Lt. General Foulkes, GOC 1st Canadian Corps at Wageningen as stated.  

About Borden - Minister of Militia and Defence, Sir Frederick William Borden


----------



## redleafjumper

What was the first fixed-gun fighter plane?


----------



## armyvern

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> What was the first fixed-gun fighter plane?



Going with the Sopwith Camel here??  ???

And your Borden answer is correct: Minister of Militia and Defence, Sir Frederick William Borden who also just happened to be born in Cornwallis Nova Scotia!


----------



## redleafjumper

The Sopwith Camel? No, sorry that's not it.  Right war though!   :warstory:


----------



## Winstone

French 1915 Morane-Saulnier monoplane.  I do belive was the first fixed machine gun platform fighter. 

The Germans, however, sought to improve this rather crude French concept.  As a result, they called on the Dutch airplane designer Anthony Fokker to develop some sort of synchronizing device that would temporarily halt the stream of machine-gun bullets so they would not strike the plane's propeller.

Within three months, the Dutchman and his collaborator, Heinrich Luebbe, perfected just such an interrupter gear.   Fokker fitted the device and a Spandau machine gun to light, strong and agile monoplane he had earlier modified from a French design, and the Fokker E -1, the first fighter plane with a synchronized machine guns was born.


----------



## armyvern

The Morane-Saulnier EFB1 (Experimental Fighting Bi-plane 1)was the first to employ a fixed machine gun with in combination with deflector gear.
The capture of this EFB1 led to the development of the Fokker "Eindecker 1 (-E1-)" that came with fixed machine gun and interrupter gear vice the deflectors.


----------



## redleafjumper

Armyvern, well done, I can just hear the keyboard clicking to find that.  The experimental Morane-Saulnier aircraft I would argue was not a a true fighter (certainly one in development), but the Fokker E1 certainly was!  Here is some information on it from a web site that I found while waiting to see if anyone would get this one:  http://www.dutch-aviation.nl/index5/Military/index5-1%20E1.html

The Fokker E.1./M.5. was inspired by the Morane-Saulnier fighters. First aircraft flew in 1915. 
The first of the Fokker fighter monoplanes, the E.1., was simply an M.5K armed with a synchronized machine gun. 
The Fokker E was a mid-wing monoplane fighter with in general unimpressive performance, and not that many were built. But it was the first fighter with a synchronized, fixed, forward-firing machinegun. The effectiveness of the E.1. and its derivatives (Fokker E.2., Fokker E.3. and Fokker E.4.) created the 'Fokker Scourge'. 
The aircraft was personally presented by Anthony Fokker to the German air detachments operating on the French front in the period from May to July 1915.
The aircraft was powered by an 80-hp Oberursel rotary engine and carried enough fuel for 2 hours flying time.

Fokker's "Eindecker" was not only the first monoplane fighter in WWI, but it was also the first to be able to fire a forward facing machinegun through the propeller without having the bullets hit it. 

The gun was originally a Parabellum, which was soon replaced by the more efficient LMG 08/15.



The Folker E1 probably had more impact on aerial warfare than any other plane.  Incidentally your first choice, the Sopwith Camel, is the first British fighter with fixed forward firing capability.


----------



## Winstone

hmmm that was a close one


----------



## armyvern

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> The Fokker E.1./M.5.





Egads jumper!!    :blotto: Please refrain from using this colour font (I know it's supposed to be yellow isn't it?) :blotto: 8)   My EYES!!....Pass the visine!!   ;D

Edited to add...while you fixed the font...I posted this!!


----------



## redleafjumper

Hee Hee, yes it was indeed!  

How about another change of gears?  I'll pick one that might be a bit more difficult and a bit less google friendly...

What order was Mussolini presented with on his visit to Germany 25 September 1937 and can you describe it?

Here's a salute in advance to anyone who finds this answer in ten minutes!


----------



## Winstone

i think he was forced into the Anti-Comintern Pact
In November, 1936, Joachim von Ribbentrop negotiated an agreement between Germany and Japan that declared the hostility of the two countries to international communism. In case of an unprovoked attack by the Soviet Union against Germany or Japan, the two nations agreed to consult on what measures to take "to safeguard their common interests". It also agreed that neither nation would make any political treaties with the Soviet Union. Germany also agreed to recognize the Japanese puppet regime in Manchuria. Italy joined the Anti-Comintern Pact in 1937
probably not though


----------



## armyvern

A special Grand Cross of the Order of the German Eagle in Gold with Diamonds (Grosskreuz des Deutschen Adlerordens in Gold und Brillanten) was awarded to Benito Mussolini 25 Sep 1937

Edited to add:   Too bad time's up..... :'(

Actually jumper was pretty easy to google if you read the question within 10 minutes of you putting it out there to us!! Good one.

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-medals/nazi.htm


----------



## Winstone

ahhh you meant a medal i thought you meant what was he ordered   to do which was basicly join up or die
here is one for you:

Which German Feild Marshal/Commander and Chief Armed Forces lost his commision for marrying a prostitue
in WW2


----------



## redleafjumper

Good, right award.  The Grosskreuz des Deutschen Adlerordens mit Diamanten (Grand cross of the Order of the German Eagle with Diamonds) was the unique class of the Meritorious Order of the German Eagle presented to Mussolini on his September visit to Germany.  It has a Maltese-style cross with four German eagles holding a swastika at the junction. The crosses of all classes of the order are in white enamel and the sash belonging to Mussolini's award had a white-black-white piping in the centre as distinct from the usual plain red sash.

What was the sister ship of the Yamato and how did it meet its end?


----------



## Winstone

The Musashi
24 October 1944: The Battle of the Sibuyan Sea:
The MUSASHI is trimmed slightly down by the stern.

0810: A search plane from the USS INTREPID (CV-11) is sighted. For the next hour, the MUSASHI attempts unsuccessfully to jam the plane's radio reports.

1018: Lookouts sight 30 enemy planes. 

1025: The MUSASHI opens fire.

1027: The MUSASHI, making 24 knots, is attacked by eight Curtiss SB2C "Helldivers" from the INTREPID. Four near-misses around the bow cause minor leaks below the waterline. One 500-lb bomb hits turret No.1 but fails to penetrate its roof armor.

1029: The MUSASHI is attacked by three of the INTREPID's Grumman TBF "Avengers". One torpedo hits starboard amidships slightly abaft the bridge and causes a 5. 5-degree list to starboard. She takes on 3,000-tons of water. After counterflooding, the list is reduced to one degree. A torpedo also hits the cruiser MYOKO. Two "Avengers" are shot down. An "Avenger" from the USS CABOT (CVL-28) fails to score because of the heavy flak.

The blast from the torpedo jams the MUSASHI's supposedly shockproof main armament director. This loss affects Rear Admiral Inoguchi's whole plan for the MUSASHI's AA defense. Prior to the battle, Inoguchi, known as the best gunnery theorist in the IJN, designs an elaborate AA scheme based on prolific use of "sanshikidans". The fact that the main director is knocked out so easily depresses him so much that he mentions it in his last letter to Admiral Toyoda, the Commanding Officer of the Combined Fleet. 

During this attack, the MUSASHI fires forty-eight 155-mm (6.1-inch) and one hundred sixty 127-mm (5-inch) rounds at the American planes. 

1047: Lookouts from the MUSASHI, YAMATO, cruisers CHOKAI, NOSHIRO and the destroyer KISHINAMI report periscope and torpedo wake sightings from that time on. 

1154: The MUSASHI's Type 13 air-search radar detects approaching enemy planes on bearing 290, range 81 kilometers. 

1157: Another contact is made with aircraft bearing 210, range 80 kilometers.

1203: Enemy planes are sighted. A second attack by eight "Helldivers" from the INTREPID scores two bomb hits and five near-misses. A dud penetrates two upper decks, demolishes the crew's head and exits above the waterline. A second bomb strikes portside ahead of 127-mm AA gun No. 4, penetrates two upper decks and explodes on the middle deck in crew space No. 10. Fragments rupture a steam pipe in engine room No. 2 directly below. This engine room and the adjacent boiler room No. 10 fill quickly with superheated steam and are abandoned. The damage results in the loss of the port inboard shaft. The MUSASHI's speed falls off to 22 knots. Two "Helldivers" are shot down.

1206: Nine TBM "Avengers" launch another "hammer and anvil"attack. One TBM is hit by flak and turns away. The eight remaining torpedo planes score three hits to the MUSASHI's portside amidships areas that cause a 5-degree list. The first torpedo hits abreast the main gun turret No. 1. The second floods hydraulic machinery compartment No. 2 and the third torpedo floods engine room No. 4. Nearby compartments are shored up and the main guns switch over to reserve hydraulic pumps. After immediate counter-flooding, the list is reduced to one degree port, but the MUSASHI is down about 6 feet by the bow. Her three remaining three propellers are throttled up for a maximum speed of 22 knots to keep pace with the rest of the fleet. 

During this attack, the MUSASHI switches over to her second main armament director. She fires nine 460-mm Type 3 shells, seventeen 155-mm and over two hundred 25-mm rounds. After the first main gun salvo, a bomb fragment penetrates the muzzle of the middle 460-mm gun of turret No. 1 and detonates a Type 3 shell that has just been loaded. The resulting explosion disables the turret's elevating machinery, rendering it inoperable. After this turret is disabled, the remaining two turrets fire 45 "sanshikidans" for a total of 54 fired in the attack. 

1312: Kurita orders fleet speed reduced to 22 knots so that the MUSASHI can keep up.

1331: The MUSASHI undergoes a third attack, this time by 29 aircraft from the USS ESSEX (CV-9) and the USS LEXINGTON (CV-16). The MUSASHI is strafed by two F6F "Hellcats". Then four SB2C "Helldivers" score two near hits starboard amidships and abreast the aft main gun turret No. 3 that cause casualties among the nearby AA gun crews. 

Six TBM "Avengers" launch three more "hammer and anvil" attacks. They score four torpedo hits. The first torpedo hits starboard forward of the main gun turret No. 1. The blast from it penetrates fuel tanks, watertight compartments and wrecks the log and sounding rooms. A temporary hospital at the bow fills with carbon monoxide. There are many casualties. 

Next, three flights of "Helldivers" score four bomb hits port side near main gun turret No. 1. Another torpedo hits the starboard bow area and floods storerooms and causes a further list to starboard. The third torpedo hits portside forward of the main gun turret No. 1 and the fourth hits port amidships. 

1350: The third attack is over. Counter-flooding reduces the heavy list to starboard to one degree. The ship is now down 13 feet by the bow with almost all trim tanks and voids filled. The MUSASHI's speed drops to 20 knots and she starts to lag behind the First Section of "Force "A". During this attack, the MUSASHI fires thirty-five 460-mm Type 3 shells, seventy-nine 155-mm and over five hundred 25-mm AA rounds. 

1412: The fourth attack by eight "Hellcats" and 12 "Helldivers" from the ESSEX is directed against the YAMATO and the NAGATO. The MUSASHI continues to steam behind her section. Rear Admiral Inoguchi reports to Admiral Kurita that, despite the damage to his ship, he is able to make 20 knots.

1445: Captain Mayuzumi Haruo, the skipper of the cruiser TONE, suggests that the entire Second Section of the First Striking Force provide fire support for the MUSASHI to defend her against further torpedo attacks. 

1455: Sixty-nine aircraft from the USS ENTERPRISE (CV-6) and the USS FRANKLIN (CV-13) begin the fifth attack of the day on Kurita's fleet. Pilots from the ENTERPRISE report the MUSASHI lagging behind the other ships, trailing oil and making but eight knots. The MUSASHI hoists the signal 'Enemy aircraft sighted'.

1515: Nine of the ENTERPRISE's SB2C "Helldivers" score four 1,000-lb AP bomb hits. The first three strike in the port bow area and cause damage below decks. The entire forward damage control team is annihilated. The fourth bomb wrecks the Chief Steward's office.

Eight "Avengers" launch a "hammer and anvil" attack and score three torpedo hits. The first two torpedoes hit the bow from both sides. The third hits starboard abreast the funnel, near the where the first attack's torpedo hit. Cooling machinery room No. 3 and starboard hydraulic machinery compartment flood. Leaks start in Damage Control Central that are shored up. The departing American pilots report the MUSASHI smoking, heavily down by the bow and dead in the water. 

The MUSASHI is, in fact, down by the bow, but is making 16 knots on three shafts. After counter-flooding, her starboard list is reduced to 1-2 degrees, but her speed falls off to 13 knots. 

Seventy-five aircraft from the INTREPID (34), FRANKLIN (30) and the CABOT (11) make the day's sixth attack on the fleet replacing the departing ENTERPRISE's planes. Thirty-seven planes attack the MUSASHI. (Note: Over 50 years later, the total number and location of all hits during this last attack is still under dispute. Most Japanese sources give 11 torpedo hits, 10 bomb hits and six near misses.) 

1525: Three of the FRANKLIN's "Helldivers" claim two 500-lb AP bomb hits. Nine of her "Avengers" attack next. Two are shot down.

1530: Seven of the INTREPID's "Helldivers" attack, followed by two of her "Avengers". A 500-lb AP bomb penetrates the right wing of the air defense station and detonates on the first bridge. Both the bridge and the adjacent operations room are set afire. Fifty-two crewmen are killed and 20 wounded, including the MUSASHI's skipper, Admiral Inoguchi. After the fire is extinguished, Inoguchi assumes command from the second bridge. 

Three bombs detonate in a row portside on the forecastle deck, abreast the forward main gun turrets. They knock out two single and one triple 25-mm AA gun mounts, the main communications room, telegraph room No. 1 and the telephone room. The blast penetrates boiler rooms Nos. 4 and 8.

The next two bombs explode on the forecastle deck starboard, abreast the superstructure. They wreck two single and one triple 25-mm AA mounts. The seventh bomb hits the middle AA gun crew shelter, causing extensive damage on the flag deck. The eight bomb explodes portside in crew's space No. 5 and demolishes the nearby hospital. The ninth bomb strikes the forward main gun turret No. 1. Finally, the tenth bomb explodes starboard in the officer's wardroom.

Three torpedoes strike to port and two strike to starboard almost simultaneously, causing extensive damage and flooding in starboard area. The first of these torpedoes hits port (near a previous hit from the second attack) abreast the main gun turret No. 1, flooding its lower powder handling room. The second torpedo slowly floods port boiler room No. 8 and soon thereafter the adjacent No. 12 abaft. Almost simultaneously, a bomb explodes over boiler room No. 8 and its blast penetrates that boiler room. 

The next four torpedoes strike port, further flooding boiler room No. 8 and the aft 25-mm gun magazine. Three of those four torpedoes strike port amidships in the vicinity of engine room No. 4. A 30-foot long section of the ship's side is gouged out. The engine room floods causing the MUSASHI to lose her other portside shaft. Her speed drops to six knots. 

The last two torpedoes strike port aft, flooding the 127-mm AA gun No. 6's magazine, the after gyro room and the port outboard shaft's tunnel. One of those two hits under the aft 155-mm. turret. The MUSASHI develops a 10 degree list to port. The crew counter-floods again and reduces the list to six degrees. The MUSASHI's main steering engine is shorted out temporarily and her main rudder jams 15 degrees left. She starts to swing to port, but the damage is repaired quickly and she resumes course. Another "Avenger" is shot down and three others damaged, as are three "Helldivers". 

In all, Force "A" endures raids by 259 U.S. carrier aircraft during the day. The MUSASHI sustains a total of 19 torpedo (10 port, 9 starboard) and 17 bomb hits, as well as 18 near misses. 

1530: Vice Admiral Kurita orders the fleet to assume course 290.

1621: Kurita's force again approaches the MUSASHI. She is heading north with a 10-degree list to port, down by the bow more than 26 feet, with her forecastle deck awash. Kurita dispatches the cruiser TONE and the destroyers SHIMAKAZE and KIYOSHIMO to escort her.

All free hands and the wounded are assembled topside starboard to counter the list. The port main anchor is dropped into the sea. Rice and other consumables from the storerooms, as well as timber used in damage control operations, are loaded on the starboard side. In a last attempt to reduce the list, the crew's spaces starboard aft, some boiler rooms and starboard outboard engine room No. 3 are flooded using the Kingston valves. As a result, the MUSASHI loses another shaft. Admiral Inoguchi attempts to beach the MUSASHI, but her engines stop before he can do so. 

1915: When the list reaches 12 degrees, Inoguchi gives the order to "standby to abandon ship". The Executive Officer, Captain Kato Kenkichi (former XO of CA CHOKAI), assembles the crew on the afterdeck. The battle flag is lowered. Admiral Inoguchi retires to his cabin and is not seen again. 

1930: After her list reaches 30 degrees to port, the MUSASHI slowly starts to turn over. Captain Kato gives the order to abandon ship. He orders the Emperor's portrait removed. The SHIMAKAZE removes 635 of 769 of the MAYA's survivors earlier taken aboard the MUSASHI.

Sunk: At 1936, the MUSASHI capsizes to port and sinks by the bow in 4,430 feet of water in the Visayan Sea at 13-07N, 122-32E. Two explosions are heard. 

The destroyers KIYOSHIMO and the HAMAKAZE rescue 1,376 survivors including XO Captain Kato, but 1,023 of her 2,399 man crew are lost including her skipper, Rear Admiral Inoguchi. 

The Americans lose 18 planes shot down. 

The MUSASHI's survivors are taken to Manila then to Corregidor Island. Most are then sent home, about 200 on the carrier JUNYO and some on the YAMATO. Three hundred of the remaining 620 survivors are divided between IJN units defending the Cavite Naval Base, Fort Drum in Manila Bay, Clark Field, the Caraballo Mountains and the Cabaruan Hills. The remaining survivors are incorporated into the Special Landing Force of Rear Admiral Iwabuchi Sanji's (former CO of KIRISHIMA) 31st Naval Base Force and most are killed defending Manila. 

31 August 1945:


----------



## redleafjumper

Right-o!  And quickly done as well.  Time I went to bed - I have to be witty for class tomorrow morning!  Here's a bit more about that big battleship:



The Yamato and the Musashi
  	

These huge Japanese battleships with their near 70,000 ton displacement and 18.1-inch main batteries were the largest such vessels ever constructed. Like the Bismark and Tirpitz, they met the letter but not the spirit of the Washington Naval Accords.

The Musashi was sunk entirely by aircraft on October 24, 1944 during the Battle of the Sibuyan Sea. The Yamato was also sunk by carrier aircraft on April 7, 1945 as it headed towards Okinawa on a suicide mission.


----------



## armyvern

Winstone said:
			
		

> Which German Feild Marshal/Commander and Chief Armed Forces lost his commision for marrying a prostitue
> in WW2



Field Marshall von Blomberg.

Alright boys, I'm off to bed now gotta ruck in about 5 hours!! Night!!  :boring:


----------



## redleafjumper

I missed the Blomberg question, sorry about that!  Okay, one last one and I'm off to bed:

What are the six standard vehicle marking signs (stencil or sign) used for marking Canadian military vehicles in WW2?  For bonus points what are the additional six signs authorized for special circumstances?


----------



## Winstone

correct


----------



## Winstone

First Canadian Army 
First Canadian Infantry Division 
I Canadian Corps   
Second Canadian Infantry Division 
During the mid war period, the Second Division also used the "CII" device on the maple leaf of their formation sign; photos in Normandy suggest it was phased out by July 1944. 
II Canadian Corps   Third Canadian Infantry Division 
First Canadian Armoured Brigade   Fourth Canadian (Armoured) Division 
Second Canadian Armoured Brigade   Fifth Canadian (Armoured) Division 

CA: Ambulance 
CC: Motorcycle 
CF: Armoured Car
         Scout Car 
CH: Tractors (ie Artillery tractors) 
CL: Lorry (30 cwt or heavier) 
CM: Car (staff car, jeep, etc.) 
CS: Self-Propelled Gun 
CT: Universal Carrier
              Tank 
CX: Trailers of all types 
CZ: Truck (15 cwt and smaller) 

Don R" was a holdover from the First World War, and designated a Despatch Rider, or military courier.   Don Rs were given absolute priority over other traffic

And of corse the crooked North American Star

http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/vehicles/wwiiveh.htm


----------



## redleafjumper

Winstone, you are on the right track, but unfortunately that isn't the correct answer.


----------



## Winstone

hmm


----------



## redleafjumper

Winstone, in your answer on vehicle signs you mention the formation sign - that is one of the six standard signs.


----------



## Winstone

ahhhhhhhhhhh its late i get you now
War Department number 
Unit sign 
Formation sign 
Bridge sign 
Tire pressure 
Gas detection patch 
Air recognition signs 
Name
DISTINGUISHING FLAGS FOR SENIOR OFFICERS AND VIPs


----------



## armyvern

I don't know:

Formation
Corp
Division
Brigade
Unit
Vehicle #

 ???


----------



## redleafjumper

That's closer, here's a full answer.  The web site http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/vehicles/wwiiveh.htm  has some of this information but the best source is a long out-of print book.

Vehicle Marking Signs, a War Office Publication

Standard ones are:

Formation signs
Unit signs
Tactical signs
Bridge Classification signs
Commander's and staff signs
Speed limit signs

The special additional signs are:

1.	Bomb disposal sign
2.	Home guard sign
3.	Tire pressure sign
4.	Convoy sign
5.	Left hand drive sign
6.	Emergency sign

Canadian military vehicles also had WD numbers that identified the vehicle nationality and type.  The prefix "CT" for example, would indicate a Canadian tank, and "CL" a Canadian lorrie.  These are what Winstone went with in the first instance.

Hey Armyvern, I thought you went to bed!  The unit sign is one and the others may be information contained on them.  This one was a little harder to google.   :warstory:


----------



## redleafjumper

What was a "Sea Serpent"?


----------



## Winstone

is this a trick question


----------



## Winstone

Well the closest i can figure would be an F/A-18 Hornet


----------



## redleafjumper

Re: The Sea Serpent, no Winstone  it's not the Hornet nor is it a trick question.  As a clue it is another historical item from WW2.


----------



## Spr.Earl

Wow this thread has come alive in the last few day's.
When I first posted the thread it was named "Question of the Week" and with in a day or two was re-named question of the Hour because of the knowledge out there.

Re; The Germans, however, sought to improve this rather crude French concept.  As a result, they called on the Dutch airplane designer Anthony Fokker to develop some sort of synchronizing device that would temporarily halt the stream of machine-gun bullets so they would not strike the plane's propeller.

What Focker did was design a cam lobe that ran of the engine and fired the weapon when the blades of the prop was at the 3 and 9 O clock postion,up until then both Air Force's just plated the prop blades with steel which just ricocheted the round off the blade and in some cases even killing the pilot.

Good questions guy's keep them coming.


----------



## ChopperHead

Re: The Sea Serpent

I think it's some kinda of sub.


----------



## Spr.Earl

Well we had Buffalos,Kangaroo's?


----------



## redleafjumper

Re: Sea Serpent

The answer I am looking for is not a sub.  As a clue, Spr Earl's answer is in the ballpark!  Surely a Sea Serpent has something to do with at least one of the four elements... (Another clue?)


----------



## Winstone

HMS Sea Serpent ~

Function - 

Address and commissioning history - the base was located in two areas... Bracklesham Bay and Birdham near Chichester. It was commissioned on 20/10/42 and paid off on 30/6/45 leaving Birdham as tender to Victory III. Birdham was paid off on 30/11/45.

Other information - it was a Combined Ops 'suspense base' prior to commissioning. Used the Sussex Ideal Holiday Camp and Gibson's Camp in Bracklesham Bay, the Brackleshan Bay Hotel and various properties at Birdham


----------



## stukirkpatrick

What about an amphibious flamethrower carrier?


----------



## redleafjumper

The Sea Serpent that I was looking for is the very rare LVT-4(F) Amphibious Flamethrower not the distinguished vessel of the same name.  It was a 79th Armoured Division vehicle or funny.  A handful of Sea Serpent participated  in the Rhine and Elbe crossings as World War 2 was drawing to a close in Europe.  They were in use from March to May 1945.    :warstory:


Who commanded the 3rd Massachusetts infantry on its formation in 1862?  What was this officer's subsequent command?


----------



## Winstone

FIELD AND STAFF 

Silas P Richmond, Colonel, Freetown 
James Barton, Lieut. Colonel, new Bedford 
John Morissey, Major, Plymouth 
Lucien L Perkins, Adjutant, Plympton 
Bethuel Pennimen Jr, Qr Master, New Bedford 
Alfred A Stocker, Surgeon, Cambridge 
Woodbridge R Howes, Asst Surgeon, Mattapaoisett 
Charles A Snow, Chaplain, Fall River 

NON COMMISSIONED OFFICERS 

Edward L Robbins, Sergt Major, Plymouth 
Joseph E Nye, Sergt Major, New Bedord 
Theodore A Barton, Qr Master Sergt, New Bedford 
Arthur Hooper, Com Sergt, Bridgewater 
Eugene Whittenmore, Hospl Steward, Boston  

It was ordered to Camp Joe Hooker at Lakeville, where its ranks were filled to the required standard, though the regiment of ten companies and 1,000 men thus organized bore but little resemblance in its make-up to the one of the same name which responded to the first call. The companies began to gather at the rendezvous September 16; they were all present on the 22d; eight companies were mustered the day following and the remainder on the 26th. Orders were received ont he 8th of October to prepare for departure to North Carolina

The regiment was assigned to Colonel Horace C. Lee's Brigade, the other regiments being the Fitfth, Twenty-fifth, Twenty-seventh and Forty-sixth Massachustets. An attack of the Confederates on the pickets at Deep Gully on the 11th of November called the Third to arms, and they stood during the night in momentary anticipation of marching orders, which did not come. That first expedition in which the command took part was that toward Goldsboro, starting on the 11th of December, and occupying 11 days. The regiment had a share in the actions at Kinston and Whitehall, though not actively engaged, and at Goldsboro on the 17th assisted in tearing up the railroad track under fire from the enemy, and later, as the main force was retiring, supported the artillery during the repulse of the Confederate attack. Though much exposed during the day the regiment escaped with a loss of but six wounded.


----------



## larry Strong

In Feb 1943, the remnants of the German garrison in the Castle at Velikiye Luki surrendered. After the surrender 1 member of each rank, from private to general was accorded special treatment. 


What was it and why?


----------



## STA Gunner

Don't have a clue for the Velikiye Luki question.

My next question, one that I can't seem to google, but have found in a book:

During the struggle to hold onto St bert-sur-Dives, Maj David Currie was awarded the VC.   This action was caught on film by an army camera crew in still and motion pictures.   It has been called "he closest you will ever come to seeing a VC beiong won captured on film".

Who captured the images (2 persons) and what awards were they given for their actions?


----------



## geo

* Velikiye Luki * 
While the Soviets fought to reduce the fortified heart of the city the Germans brought up reserves and began a series of attempts to relieve the garrison. All the attempts failed, and during the final attempt commandos from the Brandenburger Regiment were used to infiltrate the lines and help the remnant of the garrison break out, but the city was permanently lost to the Red Army and only a small fraction of the original garrison escaped with the Brandenburgers.

The battle is sometimes called "The Little Stalingrad of the North" due to its similarities with the larger and better-known Battle of Stalingrad that raged simultaneously in the southern sector of the front. (However, a number of other battles in World War II and afterward have also been dubbed a "Little Stalingrad".)

Despite suffering heavy casualties, however, and losing a key transportation hub, the Germans could count Velikiye Luki as a tactical victory. Initially outnumbered 5-to-1, under almost constant air attack and with no coherent front line in place, Group von der Chevallerie prevented the collapse of the German defense with a hodgepodge of understrength first-line units, a nearly useless second-line infantry division, supply troops and overage reservists, while inflicting crippling losses on the Soviets. 

German estimates of Soviet casualties claim more than 30,000 men were killed and thousands more wounded or captured. More than 600 Soviet armored vehicles and 400 guns were lost; 63 aircraft were shot down. A total of 31 Soviet units were considered destroyed. German losses were equally staggering--more than 17,000 men were killed or wounded and thousands more taken prisoner. The entire garrison of Velikiye Luki was lost. Several hundred armored vehicles and many precious bomber and transport aircraft were also destroyed. 

Considering the number of casuaities the Germans inflicted on the Soviets, at the very least, they were executed..... 
prolly with extreme prejudice.... 
with the remaining troops being sent to the mines and Gulags of Siberia


----------



## redleafjumper

Velikiye Luki 
 Were they shot as traitors for having switched sides as hundreds of Estonians did during that nasty siege?  A very challenging question Larry!


----------



## larry Strong

Geo's good 
the Soviets took one person of each rank and executed them, in response for the amount of casualties received.

I have only found this in one book so far, Paul Carrell's " Scorched Earth".

To the best of my knowledge they were all German, although there would have been a bunch of "Hiwi's" who would have been local and I would imagine their fate would have been unpleasant to say the least.


----------



## reccecrewman

In 1915, the Germans sent a small attache to which country to try and persude that country's government to invade India and thus open a new front to divert Commonwealth troops out of France?


----------



## armyvern

In 1915 the German Army sent Count Theobald von Bethmann-Hollweg (1856-1921), German Chancellor from 1909-17 and a small attache to see Thakur Sahib of Gondalto in Kabul, Afghanistan in an attempt to encourage opposition to British Rule in India and advocate the German view of the 1st World War in an attempt to encourage invasion of India, thus diverting Commonwealth forces.


----------



## reccecrewman

Correct Armyvern! Send us a Q!


----------



## redleafjumper

What was the name of the designer of the trigger group for the Canadian C1 Sterling SMG and what requirement made a trigger group that was different than the original British trigger necessary?


----------



## armyvern

What significant act of the war occured on 14th October 1942 in Canada?


----------



## redleafjumper

Was that the set up of the last of the eight Japanese internment camps in BC?


----------



## condor888000

A U-boat sinks the ferry SS Caribou killing 137.

On the first transport flight of military aircraft over the atlantic in WW2, how many aircraft were flown, how many were required to land in England for them to continue the operation, and what type of aircdraft were they? And for kicks, what song was played by the band of the Queens Own Rifles of Canada as they took off?


----------



## geo

SMG trigger group.... not sure of deisgner but - they had to put in a detachable (well; pivoting) trigger guard.

significant act of war in BC in 42..... didn't a Japanese Sub shell the coast and attach some coastal shipping?


----------



## armyvern

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> What was the name of the designer of the trigger group for the Canadian C1 Sterling SMG



Sarco Inc. ???


----------



## armyvern

condor888000 said:
			
		

> A U-boat sinks the ferry SS Caribou killing 137.



Correct Condor  
A piece of my personal history, among the 137 lost was my grandmother, a nurse, Helen Wightman who was on her way to visit my grandfather who was serving at Argentia.  :'(


----------



## redleafjumper

On the SMG trigger group, geo's guess is close.  The detachable trigger guard for Arctic conditions was one of the main factors for the redesign - but what is the name of the fellow (clue) who did it?  Keep looking!  

Armyvern, sorry to hear about the Caribou and your grandmother.  It may be old news, but some wounds never heal.


----------



## armyvern

condor888000 said:
			
		

> On the first transport flight of military aircraft over the atlantic in WW2, how many aircraft were flown, how many were required to land in England for them to continue the operation, and what type of aircdraft were they? And for kicks, what song was played by the band of the Queens Own Rifles of Canada as they took off?



On 10 Nov 1940, 7 Lockheed Hudson Bombers led by Capt DCT Bennett left Gander Newfoundland as the band played "Nearer My God to Thee" en route for Belfast Northern Ireland (Aldergrove). All were required to land to partake in the Battle of Britain.


----------



## armyvern

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> but what is the name of the fellow (clue) who did it?



Charles "Cholly" Steen III the designer and founder of Sarco, Inc. (Steen Armament Research Company).

It's OK about my Grandma. She is a source of inspiration.


----------



## redleafjumper

Sorry Armyvern - it's not SARCO or Cholly Steen who designed the C1 SMG trigger group.  As a clue, he is not a Canadian and the design is named for him.


----------



## condor888000

armyvern said:
			
		

> All were required to land to partake in the Battle of Britain.


Not quite. A certain number out of the 7 were required to land in order for the program to be continued. The question is, what was that number?


----------



## redleafjumper

Re: Lockheed Hudsons - I believe that the requirement was intended to address some casualties or mechanical breakdown and that the magic number was 5.


----------



## condor888000

Lower..........


----------



## redleafjumper

Lower?  Hmm, must be 4.


----------



## condor888000

Lower.........


----------



## armyvern

OK then, He'll go down ;D I'll go up   ;D My answer is ONE. ??? I am picking one because they had the belief that NONE could make it across safely, thus with 1 bomber finally making it over...the proof was in the pudding.


----------



## armyvern

OK tonight I've found something different. I have found a site which answers some of the questions on the first trans-Atlantic crossing but only makes mention "that official's were willing to accept a 50% loss" because that is what the loss-rate was for sea transport." Therefore 3.5 technically but I'll go with 3.

Quite the considerable feat for those zoomies landing all 7 safely. Despite the winter conditions they experienced flying off into the night and spending their last hours of flight passing through a blizzard.

Well done indeed!!      

http://www.airmuseum.ca/mag/exag0305.html


----------



## condor888000

Yes, if 3 of the first 7 aircraft survived, the plan was to continue. Shows how desperate they were for any aircraft eh?


----------



## redleafjumper

Still no takers on the C1 SMG trigger group designer or on the subsequent command of that US civil war Colonel?


----------



## STA Gunner

No takers on this one so far...



			
				STA Gunner said:
			
		

> My next question, one that I can't seem to google, but have found in a book:
> 
> During the struggle to hold onto St bert-sur-Dives, Maj David Currie was awarded the VC.   This action was caught on film by an army camera crew in still and motion pictures.   It has been called "he closest you will ever come to seeing a VC beiong won captured on film".
> 
> Who captured the images (2 persons) and what awards were they given for their actions?



A quick link to the picture is here http://www.sarvaofcanada.ca/sarva/currie/pic3.jpg

Images were captured by St Stollery who was awarded the MM and Lt Grant who was awarded the MC for their roles in the action.


----------



## redleafjumper

STA Gunner, thanks for posting that answer, I know the still photo of that VC winner.   There is a neatly dressed German infantry major surrendering to another soldier in the same photo along with several Germans walking up with hands up.   I didn't bother googling to find the answer, but I was surprised to see that the two books I have with the photo were pretty sketchy about credit.



Edited to fix typos!


----------



## Michael Dorosh

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> STA Gunner, thanks for posting that answer, I know the still photo of that VC winner.   There is neatly dressed german infantry major surrendering to another soldier in the same photo along with several Germans walking up with hands up.   I didn't bother googling to find the answer, but I was surprised to see that the two books I have with the photo were pretty sketchy about credit.



Okay, what was the name of the Argylls CSM in the picture who accepted the surrender?


----------



## redleafjumper

The Argylls CSM was Company Sergeant Major George Mitchell (see below from http://www.ashofc.ca/ASH003.htm)

On 18 August 1944, B Company of the Argylls was placed under command of C Squadron of The South Alberta Regiment (SAR), which was commanded by Major David Currie. This composite group was tasked to close the road running through St. Lambert-Sur-Dives, which was the main German escape route between the towns of Chambois and Trun.

In the early morning of 19 August 1944, B Company and C Squadron attacked St. Lambert and cleared half of the town, with Company Sergeant Major George Mitchell and Private MR Holmes distinguishing themselves by rescuing the driver of a burning SAR tank while under fire. The Argylls suffered 6 wounded that day. C Company of the Argylls joined the force in St. Lambert at 1900 hrs.

On the 20th of August 1944, Major Ivan Martin, Officer Commanding B Company went forward on foot alone twice to call down artillery fire on German self propelled guns. He was killed during the course of the day and was awarded an American Distinguished Service Cross. The Argylls lost 3 killed and 13 wounded on that day.

By 21 August 1944, most of the heavy fighting was over and the town was finally cleared of enemy resistance. The roads leading to St. Lambert were clogged with destroyed vehicles and abandoned equipment. Private McAllister of B Company won acclaim by single handedly taking 150 prisoners. The 21st would see 5 Argylls killed and 2 more wounded.

By the end of the action, B and C companies had only about 70 men between them. They would be amalgamated on 22 August 1944 under the command of Major Alex Logie, son of Major General WA Logie who had been the first Commanding Officer of the Argylls in 1903.

The battle at St. Lambert-Sur-Dives was a significant victory for Canada, the Argylls and the SARs. Less than 200 Canadians held off attacks by literally thousands of Germans for three days and played a major role in closing the Falaise Gap, which signaled the defeat and destruction of the German Seventh Army.

For his valour, Major Currie was awarded the Victoria Cross.

For their persistence and dedication, for the Argyll's valour, 18 August will be henceforth known as St. Lambert-sur-Dives Day, in perpetuity. 

(Modified to add source)

How about that trigger designer?


----------



## reccecrewman

Who was Canada's first VC recipient, and what battle and what date did he earn it on?


----------



## Michael OLeary

The first VC associated with Canada:

October 25, 1854	

VC won by Lt Alexander Roberts Dunn, 11th (Prince Albert's Own) Regiment of (Light) Dragoons (Hussars), (British Army), Balaclava, The Charge of the Light Brigade. Lieutenant A.R. Dunn, of Toronto, part of an English brigade of 600 men who charge the Russian army at 11 am, during the Crimean War; unhorsed, he empties his revolver at the Russians, then uses his sword - too long by regulations - to save several of his fellow cavalrymen; his bravery during the Charge of the Light Brigade made him the first Canadian to win the Victoria Cross.


----------



## reccecrewman

Wow - 15 minutes and right on the money!  ;D


----------



## Michael OLeary

What regiments contributed to the Canadian Berlin Battalion, when was it formed and what dates did it serve in Berlin? For extra points, what was the formation is was under command of there?


----------



## George Wallace

Would they all have been under Churchill Mann?


----------



## Michael OLeary

No, from my sources, he was the COS of the First Canadian Army at the time in question, So, they would not have been under his command, but that of Crerar.


----------



## Old Sweat

The Berlin contingent was originally to be a brigade, but it was cut back to a battalion based on the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders of Canada. I would have to do some more digging, but there was an article on it in the Canadian Army Journal circa 1962. Unfortunately, both my memory and my hairline have deteriorated since then, so I cannot recall any more details. (On the other hand, my waistline is overtaking my M score.)


----------



## armyvern

Hmmm...
Les Fusilier Mont Royal, the Loyal Edmonton Regiment and The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders of Canada (Princess' Louise's).
Served in Berlin as part of Op Eclipse, 21 Army Group, 3rd Canadian Infantry Division, as part of the Canadian Army Occupational Forces (CAOF) effective 0001hrs 14 July 1945 until 15 May 1946.   ???


----------



## George Wallace

This question has gotten to me.   I know I had a plaque presented to CC Mann with approximately 16 hatbadges on it from that Bde.   They included RCAPC, RCEME, RCASC, and other Support Trades, but also approx four to six Infantry and a couple of Armour as well as Arty and Engr Hatbadges.   I can picture that plaque, but can't remember learly the Units......


----------



## armyvern

George Wallace said:
			
		

> This question has gotten to me.   I know I had a plaque presented to CC Mann with approximately 16 hatbadges on it from that Bde.   They included RCAPC, RCEME, RCASC, and other Support Trades, but also approx four to six Infantry and a couple of Armour as well as Arty and Engr Hatbadges.   I can picture that plaque, but can't remember learly the Units......



George, I found this site below. You'll have to scroll all the way to Annex D at page 66. It lists all the Units which comprised the CAOF in Germany, but I think only the 3 I give in answer below were actually part of the Berlin Battalion:  ???

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:2axhQBinvmEJ:www.forces.gc.ca/dhh/downloads/cmhq/cmhq174.pdf+21+army+group+caof+berlin&hl=en


----------



## Kat Stevens

This thread is very entertaining, and enlightening.  However, perhaps "  Who can hit search on Google fastest?" would be a better description.  By all means, let's keep it going.  As a prisoner of dialup, I'll never be first with the answer, anyway...


----------



## Michael OLeary

Re: *Canadian Berlin Battalion*

Correct so far for units: *The Loyal Edmonton Regiment, Les Fusiliers Mont Royal, The Argyll and Sutherland Highrs (Princess Louise's) *

Now: date of formation of the battalion?, period of service?, under command of what higher formation?

Shall I add: who was the Commanding Officer, and what unit did he come from?


----------



## armyvern

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> As a prisoner of dialup, I'll never be first with the answer, anyway...



Dial-up? You should have been around to know all these answers then.   ;D Just kidding!!! Yep, you are right, I google them. But I am certainly no expert when it comes to this stuff and I find it quite educational. I get onto something, think I've found the answer and just continue reading whatever page, I'm actually learning some great things!!


----------



## Kat Stevens

I was there on the survey party when Hannibal crossed the Alps for his Italian vacation.  Those nifty messtins were great when we got them, but it seems my memory of the old days ain't what it used to was...


----------



## George Wallace

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> I was there on the survey party when Hannibal crossed the Alps for his Italian vacation.   Those nifty messtins were great when we got them, but it seems my memory of the old days ain't what it used to was...



Is it true then that elephant dung burns longer and hoter than cow and horse patties?


----------



## Kat Stevens

Yup, also great for chapped lips... doesn't cure it, but sure as hell stops you licking them!


----------



## Danjanou

Kat, Armyvern, when we started this thread on so many many pages and questions ago, there was an unofficial agreement among the two or three amateur (or profesional) military historians,and trivia buffs not to post right away to give everyone else a chance to answer.

Hmm guess we have to start dragging out the obscure questions that may not show up on google. 8)


----------



## redleafjumper

No one has yet answered the question as to who was the designer of the Canadian trigger group for the Sterling C1 smg...


----------



## redleafjumper

Since no one bit on Colonel Silas P. Richmond's subsequent command after the 3rd Massachusetts infantry, the answer is that from June 1862 he commanded the 58th Massachusetts infantry.


----------



## redleafjumper

Gosh, I hope that this simple question about the designer of the Canadian C1 SMG trigger group hasn't killed this thread!   It isn't a google friendly question but surely someone out there must know.

In the mean time how about another easy one to get people going again:

What is the latin name for the multi-part plate armour worn by some Roman Legions?


----------



## Michael OLeary

Let's close this one off:



			
				Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Re: *Canadian Berlin Battalion*
> 
> Correct so far for units: *The Loyal Edmonton Regiment, Les Fusiliers Mont Royal, The Argyll and Sutherland Highrs (Princess Louise's) *
> 
> Now: date of formation of the battalion?, period of service?, under command of what higher formation?
> 
> Shall I add: who was the Commanding Officer, and what unit did he come from?



A composite Canadian Battalion was also formed to join the occupation forces in Berlin. Representing the 1st , 2nd and 4th Divisions, The Loyal Edmonton Regiment, Les Fusiliers Mont Royal and The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders each contributed elements to the "Canadian Berlin Battalion", commanded by Lieutenant-Colonel A.F. Cotton, DSO of the Argylls. The battalion included a headquarters, four rifle companies, a support company, provost section, band, and detachments from the Royal Canadian Dental Corps and the Auxiliary Services. It was formed on 17 June 1945, and served in Berlin from 4 to 26 July 1945 under the 131st British Lorried Infantry Brigade. The battalion was disbanded upon return to the Netherlands. 

Source: Operational Handbook for the First Canadian Army 1944-1945; Formation Organization, Staff Technique and Administration, Compiled and written by John J. Grodzinski, 1996


----------



## larry Strong

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> What is the latin name for the multi-part plate armour worn by some Roman Legions?




Lorica Segmentata: Armoured Jacket believed to have been introduced around the 1st cent AD.


----------



## Island Ryhno

Not counting the US, Canada and The Republic of South Korea how many United Nations Countries sent combat troops to Korea? Bonus points for naming the countries!


----------



## redleafjumper

From: http://www.awm.gov.au/encyclopedia/korea_unlist.htm:

Twenty including:

Korea: United Nations Force Contributions
A listing of countries and level of contribution:
Australia: Two infantry battalions, part of the 1st Commonwealth Division; two destroyers or frigates; one aircraft carrier and a fighter squadron.

Belgium: One infantry battalion.

Canada: One reinforced infantry brigade, including tank and artillery forces, part of the 1st Commonwealth Division; three destroyers; and a squadron of transport aircraft.

Colombia: One infantry battalion and a frigate

Ethiopia: One infantry battalion.

France: One reinforced infantry battalion.

Greece: One infantry battalion andd transport aircraft.

Luxembourg: One infantry platoon.

Netherlands: One infantry battalion and naval forces.

New Zealand: One regiment of artillery, part of the 1st Commonwealth Division

Thailand: One infantry battalion; naval forces; air and naval transports

Turkey: One infantry brigade.

Union of South Africa: One fighter squadron.

United Kingdom: Two infantry brigades, one armoured regiment, one and a half artillery regiments, one and a half engineer regiments and supporting ground forces, all part of the 1st Commonwealth Division; British Far East Fleet; and Sunderland aircraft of the RAF.

United States of America: The Eighth Army, of six army divisions and one Marine division; Naval Forces Far East (three task forces); and Far East Air Forces (three air forces).

Denmark, Italy, India, Norway and Sweden contributed medical units.


----------



## redleafjumper

Larry's answer regarding the Lorica Segmentata is correct!

Since no one has bitten on the C1 SMG trigger group I will reveal the answer - Les Ruffell, a draughtsman with Sterling (Dagenham, Essex) designed the "Ruffell" trigger group to meet Canadian needs for a stamped trigger group that had a removable trigger guard for arctic operations.   The trigger group worked better in tests than the existing British trigger group, but was not adopted by the British.   

What heir to a royal throne was killed in the Zulu wars while serving with the British Army as an observer?


----------



## Danjanou

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> What heir to a royal throne was killed in the Zulu wars while serving with the British Army as an observer?




Napoleon Eugene Louis John Joseph, (March 16, 1856 â â€œ June 1, 1879), Prince Imperial, was the only child of Emperor Napoleon III of France and his wife the Empress Eugénie.

He served as an officer in the British Army and volunteered to join the British expedition to Zululand. While out on reconnaissance prior to the battle of Ulundi he was surprised by Zulus and speared to death in a deserted kraal by the iTyotyosi river. His escort reportedly fled but evidence suggested that he had put up a brave resistance until the ammunition of his revolver ran out. 

His death sent shock waves throughout Europe as he was the last dynastic hope for the restoration of the Bonapartes to the throne of France. The Zulus later claimed that they would not have killed him had they known who he was.


----------



## redleafjumper

Danjanou has nailed the correct answer - the loss of the Prince Imperial was a shattering blow to those hoping for the restoration of the Bonaparte line.


What was the name of the thing that Spartan mothers are attributed by Plutarch as having said to their warrior sons to come home with or on?


----------



## big bad john

Their Shield.


----------



## Kat Stevens

"Bring this shield home, or be brought home dead upon it."


----------



## redleafjumper

The thing is a shield, but not so fast, what is its name?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

The shield is called a _hoplon_, from which comes the name _hoplite_ for the Greek infantryman


----------



## big bad john

recceguy said:
			
		

> The shield is called a _hoplon_, from which comes the name _hoplite_ for the Greek infantryman



I am hanging my head in shame!


----------



## redleafjumper

A good try, but hoplon is not the correct answer as it actually means "arms" or "weapons" rather than "shield".   

The word hoplon is believed to have been used since the 5th century to describe the hoplite shield, but there is a name from the time of the hoplites which actually means that particular shield, and that is the name that I am seeking.


----------



## mo-litia

I think the hoplon's shield was originally called an aspis.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Or are you speaking of the Greek letter "L" that was on the Spartan shield meaning "Laconia" or "Lakedaimon" for Sparta?


----------



## redleafjumper

Two excellent answers!   The original name for the shield of the Spartan hoplite is an aspis and though Spartan shields were originally marked according to the preferences of the bearer, they were later uniformly marked with the Greek letter "L" which stood for the greek word "lambda".   This letter was an abbreviation for Lakedaimon, which is a name for Sparta.


What is a zoauve?


----------



## mo-litia

There are also two answer for this question: a Zouave is either a member of a French infantry unit made up mostly of Alergians, or, a member of a   US Civil War era infantry unit that emulated these French units.

Here's a question - what was the name of the father of the American Indian leader Crazy Horse?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

mo-litia said:
			
		

> There are also two answer for this question: a Zouave is either a member of a French infantry unit made up mostly of Alergians, or, a member of a   US Civil War era infantry unit that emulated these French units.



Three actually. It's also the name of a Civil War era .58 cal musket, called as such for it's fancy brass furniture.



			
				mo-litia said:
			
		

> Here's a question - what was the name of the father of the American Indian leader Crazy Horse?



Crazy Horse's father, was also named Crazy Horse, but took the name Worm after passing the Crazy Horse name to his son.


----------



## Bill Smy

Of what note does History make of Lieutenant Den Brotherbridge, D Company, The Oxford and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry?


----------



## big bad john

Bill Smy said:
			
		

> Of what note does History make of Lieutenant Den Brotherbridge, D Company, The Oxford and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry?


Commanded 25 Platoon at Caen Canal Bridge (Pegesus Bridge)...BTW It was 25 Platoon , D Company 2nd Batallion The Oxford and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry. 6 June 1944


----------



## redleafjumper

Re: Zoauve   The answers received are correct and complete. Here is some more information about these troops:
Zoauves are French light infantry originally raised from Algerian Berbers in 1831.   They are known for their brightly coloured North African style uniforms.   

From: http://www.anoca.org/war/zouaves/zouave.html:

Zouave is the name given to certain infantry regiments in the French army . 
The corps was first raised in Algeria in 1831 with one and later two battalions, and recruited solely from the Zouaoua, a tribe of Berbers , dwelling in the mountains of the Jurjura range (see Kabyles ). In 1838 a third battalion was raised, and the regiment thus formedwas commanded by Lamoriciere. Shortly afterwards the formation of the Tirailleurs algeriens, the Turcos, as the corpsfor natives, changed the enlistment for the Zouave battalions, and they became, as they now remain, a purely French body. Threeregiments were formed in 1852 , and a fourth, the Zouaves of the Imperial Guard, in 1854 . The Crimean War was the first servicewhich the regiments saw outside Algeria. 

The Papal Zouaves were formed in defence of the Papalstates by Lamoriciere in 1860 . After the occupation of Rome by Victor Emmanuel in 1870 , the Papal Zouaves served the government of National Defence in France during the Franco-Prussian War , and were disbanded after the entrance of German troops into Paris . 

Several Zouave Regiments were organized from American soldiers who adopted the name and the North African inspired uniforms during the American Civil War .


----------



## redleafjumper

What is the name of the ship that, when it sank, resulted in the largest ever maritime disaster (measured by loss of life) in either war or peace?
How many died in that sinking and what were the circumstances of that vessel's loss?


----------



## Danjanou

Another ACW question.

What was unique about the 79th New York Regiment?


----------



## big bad john

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Another ACW question.
> 
> What was unique about the 79th New York Regiment?


79th New York Regiment was "known" as the "Cameron Highlanders", Kilts and all.  It has been debated but is considered unlikely that they wore kilts at Bull Run.


----------



## redleafjumper

I believe that the 79th New York was the only American highland infantry unit.   I recall reading that they actually had kilts but I don't believe that they actually wore them in combat.


----------



## mo-litia

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> What is the name of the ship that, when it sank, resulted in the largest ever maritime disaster (measured by loss of life) in either war or peace?
> How many died in that sinking and what were the circumstances of that vessel's loss?



Wilhelm Gustloff, sunk on Jan 30th 1945 with 5,900 to 7,000 killed.

German steamer of 25,484 tons. Torpedoed by Russian submarine S-13 about 28 n/miles NNE of Leba, Baltic. It is estimated that this number of persons may have been on board the vessel during the evacuation of German troops and personnel from Baltic ports


----------



## redleafjumper

The Wilhelm Gustloff is the correct answer.  Figures of the number of people killed range as high as 10,000, it is probably closer to 9,000 (I recall reading something to that effect in the Deutches Marine Ehrenmal near Laboe).  There are several web sites with excellent descriptions of the event.  This one is well done:
        http://www.wilhelmgustloff.com/sinking.htm


----------



## mo-litia

What was the name of the WW2 German general who went on to lead the West German intelligence service and who alleged that Martin Bormann was a Soviet agent?


----------



## redleafjumper

I believe it was General Gehlen.


----------



## Danjanou

Correct Big Bad John & Redleafjumper you both win a cookie. However due to recent budget cuts there is only one cookie so you'll have to share. 

Interesting info on the 79th NY

http://www.americancivilwar.org.uk/articles/highlanders.htm

http://79ny.50megs.com/History.htm


----------



## redleafjumper

What was the first anti-tank rifle, when was it produced and by whom?


----------



## mo-litia

Good call on General Gehlen, redleafjumper.

I'm just guessing at the first AT weapon...I'm pretty sure that it wasn't our mighty PIAT; so was it either the Panzerfaust or the American bazooka? ???


----------



## Long in the tooth

Was the first AT Rifle the Finnish Lahti used in the winter war?


----------



## redleafjumper

Thanks mo-litia, I've been a military history buff since I was a wee lad and long before there were such things as search engines!

Sadly, your guess on the first AT weapon is not correct.   There are several that predate the ones that you mention...

Worn Out Grunt's answer on the very nice Lahti is also not correct.


----------



## stukirkpatrick

The German Mauser M1918 13.2 mm bolt action rifle?...  in 1918 I'd assume...


----------



## redleafjumper

That's the ATR!  The Mauser 13mm T-Gewehr of 1918 was the first anti-tank rifle.  Gosh, I'm going to have to come up with another hard one again...

What is the largest officer corps in the Canadian Forces?


----------



## mo-litia

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Thanks mo-litia, I've been a military history buff since I was a wee lad and long before there were such things as search engines!



Well, I guess I'm busted on where I sourced my information on the Wilhelm Gustloff from.   



			
				redleafjumper said:
			
		

> What is the largest officer corps in the Canadian Forces?



I dunno, but our DND HQ officer cadre is huge, if not necessarily a corps.   ;D

If I was to hazard a guess I would have to say that the largest officer corps is likely the logistical officers corps; the shaft of the spear is usually bigger than the pointy thing at the killing end.

*What was Operation Sea Lion and what date was it set to begin on?*


----------



## PPCLI MCpl

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> That's the ATR!   The Mauser 13mm T-Gewehr of 1918 was the first anti-tank rifle.   Gosh, I'm going to have to come up with another hard one again...
> 
> What is the largest officer corps in the Canadian Forces?



The CIC

Although Cadre makes it sound kind of elite doesn't it?


----------



## stukirkpatrick

> What was Operation Sea Lion and what date was it set to begin on?



Aha I've heard of this - it was the German plan to invade Britain, on the condition that the RAF had been destroyed during the Battle of Britain...which it wasnt... the exact date it was planned for I am unsure of   :-\


----------



## Bill Smy

big bad john said:
			
		

> Commanded 25 Platoon at Caen Canal Bridge (Pegesus Bridge)...BTW It was 25 Platoon , D Company 2nd Batallion The Oxford and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry. 6 June 1944



Correct. Historian Stephen Ambrose claims that a burst he fired from his Sten gun "were the first shots fired by the 175,000 British, American, Canadian, Free French, Polich, Norwegian, and other nationalities in the Allied Expedionary Force set to invade Normandy..." and that "he was the first Allied soldier to be killed by enemy fire on D-Day."


----------



## redleafjumper

The CIC

Although Cadre makes it sound kind of elite doesn't it?


PPCLI MCPL is correct.  The largest officer corps, with about 4,500 members is the Cadet Instructors Cadre, formerly called the Cadet Instructors List.

What was the significance of the battle of Crecy?


----------



## redleafjumper

Sea Lion was to start September 15, 1940.


----------



## stukirkpatrick

> What was the significance of the battle of Crecy?



That would be the battle that signified the end of the age of knights and chivalry, when English and Welsh peasant longbowmen spectacularly defeated a larger force of French Knights by using superior tactics, during the 100 years war.


----------



## mo-litia

redleafjumper - Not to split hairs, but I am pretty sure that Op Sea Lion was to start on 17 Sept 40 rather than 15 Sept 40.

Can anyone else clarify this?


----------



## geo

Battle of Crecy - signalled the end of Knights in shiny armour...... and the recognised supremacy of the english longbow.


----------



## redleafjumper

Mo-litia, based on your good comment, I have had another look at Sea Lion. 
According to German Air Force General Werner Kreipe, in The Fatal Decisions, 10 August was the date that Hitler first postponed the invasion that was originally scheduled for the end of August.    It was again postponed to dates including September 15 and September 24  postponed again on 17 September and cancelled on October 12 .  September 15 is celebrated to this day as Battle of Britain Day to commemorate that the naziis didn't come as it was the day that the air battle was won.  There is some divergence in the various sources on the dates as it appears that that there were numerous changes...

About Crecy, good answers, yes, this was the battle that spelled the end of the armoured knight as it was the first permanent defeat of the nobles in armour by infantry.  This battle ended the dominance of the feudal cavalry and meant that the trained archer was a force to be reckoned with.  The knights never regained the battlefield stature that they had previously enjoyed.


----------



## redleafjumper

Who was the operations officer for Panzer Group Guderian in June of 1940?  Clue - this same officer later served as Chief of Staff to Rommel.


----------



## PPCLI MCpl

Lieutenant-General Fritz Bayerlein


Here's one that's not to hard, but informative none the less:   What is the name and history of the snake and rod on the Medical capbadge?


----------



## Michael OLeary

PPCLI MCpl said:
			
		

> Here's one that's not to hard, but informative none the less:  What is the name and history of the snake and rod on the MedA/Tech capbadge?



The Caduceus  of Mercury (Roman)

http://drblayney.com/Asclepius.html



> Professional and patient centred organisations (such as the NZMA, in fact most medical Associations around the world including the World Health Organization) use the "correct" and traditional symbol of medicine, the staff of Asclepius with a single serpent encircling a staff, classically a rough-hewn knotty tree limb. Asclepius (an ancient greek physician deified as the god of medicine) is traditionally depicted as a bearded man wearing a robe that leaves his chest uncovered and holding a staff with his sacred single serpent coiled around it, (example right) symbolizing renewal of youth as the serpent casts off its skin. The single serpent staff also appears on a Sumerian vase of c. 2000 B.C. representing the healing god Ningishita, the prototype of the Greek Asklepios.





> The probable medical origin of the single serpent around a rod: In ancient times infection by parasitic worms was common. The filarial worm Dracunculus medinensis aka "the fiery serpent", aka "the dragon of Medina" aka "the guinea worm" crawled around the victim's body, just under the skin. Physicians treated this infection by cutting a slit in the patient's skin, just in front of the worm's path. As the worm crawled out the cut, the physician carefully wound the pest around a stick until the entire animal had been removed. It is believed that because this type of infection was so common, physicians advertised their services by displaying a sign with the worm on a stick.


----------



## PPCLI MCpl

It is actually not the Caduceus, but the Aesculapius.

 In Greek mythology, Aesculapius, son of Apollo, (often referred to as the god of medicine or healing) was a Greek healer who became a Greek demigod, and was a famous physician.   The staff of Aesculapius with a coiled serpent became the traditional symbol of medicine.

Edit:  I'm trying to deal with the power outages currently plaguing us in Shilo, my references will follow shortly...


----------



## redleafjumper

In November 1939 the British and French governments came into possession of secret plans.  What were these plans, how did these governments obtain them and what was done with the information?


----------



## larry Strong

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> In November 1939 the British and French governments came into possession of secret plans.   What were these plans, how did these governments obtain them and what was done with the information?



The initial plans for the invasion of France etc, The german plane ran out of fuel I think. I can't get at my books with out waking the missus - not a wise health choice - and I will get the third part asap.


----------



## STA Gunner

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> In November 1939 the British and French governments came into possession of secret plans.   What were these plans, how did these governments obtain them and what was done with the information?



I remember something like this from a recent viewing of the "History Channel".

Was it a set of plans or a prototype of the Enigma machine, supplied by some Polish agents?


----------



## larry Strong

I was wrong my response happened, in Jan of 1940


----------



## redleafjumper

Larry, actually you are correct (more or less).  In November 1939 a German light aircraft, (probably a Fiesler Storch) was forced down near Mechlin, in Belgium, which is located just inside the eastern frontier.
  A gendarme stopped the German officer on board from burning some documents.  The gendarme gave the documents to the authorities and these were provided to the French and British.  The documents were the German  general staff plans for the invasion of France and the low countries.  No action was taken as it was thought that this had to be a clumsy German ruse.


----------



## mo-litia

redleafjumper - Thanks for the clarification on Op Sea Lion; I had no idea that it was postponed so many times before being cancelled.

Why did Kaiser Wilhelm feel that he did not have to worry about Russian action in the days before the beginning of World War 1?


----------



## redleafjumper

Probably due to the different rail gauge of the Russian and European sytems and the expected lengthy mobilization schedule.  In addition Russia was known to be low in armaments,  while Germany was well armed.  Actually, the answer to this question is really fairly complex - I might have to pull out my old copy of the Origins of the First World War, H.W. Koch, ed.  for a better answer!


----------



## stukirkpatrick

I'll get to the answer eventually...  I'm reaading about the alliances for a history class right now


----------



## redleafjumper

In the meantime, here is a question that will be easy for some and impossible for others:

What is the 'trim vane' (army context) and what is it used for?

(modified to correct spelling and improve clarity)


----------



## geo

redleaf

do you mean "trim vane"?... the mechanism that submariners use to control their level / altitude


----------



## redleafjumper

I think your spelling, that is 'vane' is correct.   The answer you have given, the submarine leveling device, is related to what I am looking for, but the answer I seek is related to an army vehicle.   My apologies for the lack of clarity!


----------



## Fishbone Jones

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> What is the 'trim vane' (army context) and what is it used for?



It is the board found on the front of certain armoured vehicles, like the M113 family. It's used when swimming the vehicle, to provide stability.

It's more often used as a table though, when supported by a shovel.


----------



## redleafjumper

Recceguy has it right.  The trim vane is the stability board used to prevent water washing over swimming AFVs, and to add stability in the water.




Here's an easy one:

What are the names of the two full-auto variants of the Lee-Enfield .303?  Why and where were they made?


----------



## Spr.Earl

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Re: Sea Serpent
> 
> The answer I am looking for is not a sub.   As a clue, Spr Earl's answer is in the ballpark!   Surely a Sea Serpent has something to do with at least one of the four elements... (Another clue?)



Yup I know the answer but letting others find it ergo the hint of the Buff's and Roo's  ;D


----------



## Spr.Earl

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Recceguy has it right.   The trim vane is the stability board used to prevent water washing over swimming AFVs, and to add stability in the water.


Here's the next one.
What propels the old M113 through the water?
You must be precise.


----------



## George Wallace

Do you really want the Physics formula for the inertial movement of the tracks in the liquid or will it suffice to say that the motion of the tracks propells the M113 family of vehicles through the water.   Of course the design of the end-connectors assists in the propulsion of the vehicle.........think of the old Mississippi Riverboats - paddle boats


----------



## Kat Stevens

End connectors provide propulsion, shrouds provide buoyancy, counterweight provides stability.


----------



## George Wallace

Would that mean that all the times we had no shrouds to provide buoyancy, we should have sunk?   ;D

Next Question:
On the M113, why did you leave the Cargo Hatch OPEN when entering the water for swimming?


----------



## Kat Stevens

Nope, closed on entry, opened afterwards.  You weren't  SUPPOSED to swim without shrouds, but we all did it.  They actually provided about an extra 3/4" of precious freeboard.  Oh, and the trim vane provided "lift" when swimming.


----------



## George Wallace

Actually the hatch was left open in case of swamping.   The theory was that the force of the water entering the forward hatches would 'blow' everyone out the Cargo Hatch.   If the hatch was closed on entry and the vehicle was swamped, the crew would be forced up against the ramp and drown.


----------



## Kat Stevens

I was taught that the air pocket formed with the family hatch closed provided buoyancy during the approach and entry.  The hatch was then opened, as per your info.  I was taught by infanteers, so maybe they were wrong.  If D&M Sqn taught ALL AFV, maybe these discrepancies wouldn't exist.  Clever justification for my position in the MAT thread, eh?   ;D


----------



## George Wallace

They also had a nasty habit of changing the Safety Precautions for Swim Camps ever four or five years....it has been some time since my last Swim Camp....so I suppose it could depend on what Unit and era we talk of...   ;D

Always remember to check your Hull Drain Plugs and lock the Backdoor.   ;D


----------



## Spr.Earl

George Wallace said:
			
		

> They also had a nasty habit of changing the Safety Precautions for Swim Camps ever four or five years....it has been some time since my last Swim Camp....so I suppose it could depend on what Unit and era we talk of...   ;D
> 
> Always remember to check your Hull Drain Plugs and lock the Backdoor.     ;D


And your bilge pump.


----------



## redleafjumper

Ah memory lane and M113s, the stuff history is made of!

Now, how about those two full auto Lee-Enfield .303s?


----------



## 1feral1

There is two variations of these of which I have physically seen one at the Infantry museum at the School of Infantry in Singleton, yes whewre AASAM will be held in November. The name Charleton comes to mind, but there is two types. They are in Skennerton's books, and these are still boxed after the move up here, and await unpacking.

Someone do some googling....

Cheers,

Wes


----------



## redleafjumper

Wesley is certainly helping people with his answer. The Charlton is one of the firearms, but the other remains unknown, as do the where and why of these two amazing conversions of  bolt action rifles into machine guns.  (There are more clues there...)


----------



## larry Strong

Rifle .303 inch Mklll (Experimental self loading)

http://www.rememuseum.org.uk/arms/rifles/armaslr.htm


----------



## geo

Hmmm.... 
- would the other one be the "De Lisle carbine .45"?

have seen an example of the charlton... looks like a bit of a plumbers's nightmare.


----------



## larry Strong

That would be a better response than mine.


----------



## redleafjumper

Sadly no, the Delisle is not a machine gun, nor is the experimental self-loader.  But clearly there is some serious research taking place.  A book that would mention the Charlton and the Delisle might well mention that other elusive full-auto Lee Enfield.

My internet investigations on this topic haven't born much fruit, so some traditional research may well be in order.


----------



## redleafjumper

Surely there must be some takers out there on this question of these amazing and historical firearms?  Perhaps I'll give it another day before revealing the answer...


----------



## redleafjumper

In the interest of keeping this thread going, The Charlton and Howell automatic  rifles were expedient conversions of Lee Enfields by New Zealand and Australia to meet a demand for a serious shortage of Bren light machine guns.  As one writer correctly observed they were a bit of a plumber's nightmare, but not a particularly complicated conversion given that this was a revision going from bolt action to full automatic.

I understand that less than a thousand of these were made and most were destroyed when the need for them passed.  

Here is a new question:  Who proposed the division of post-war Germany into three occupation zones and which allied leader's rejection of the proposal was not passed on to the negotiation team in time for them to act on his/her wishes?  Also, was the proposal adopted?


(edited to put "not" in front of passed - ooops!)


----------



## geo

USSR wanted it all... and they already had Berlin... had taken the most casualties and weren't in a giving mood.....

Uncle Josef Stalin is the obvious national leader who would have balked at "sharing"

Who proposed the sharing / dividing?..... Ummm - off the cuff - would venture to say that the US was lead in the proposal and the UK reluctantly agreeing.


----------



## redleafjumper

USSR wanted it all... and they already had Berlin... had taken the most casualties and weren't in a giving mood.....

Uncle Josef Stalin is the obvious national leader who would have balked at "sharing"

Who proposed the sharing / dividing?..... Ummm - off the cuff - would venture to say that the US was lead in the proposal and the UK reluctantly agreeing.



Geo, that is an intriguing set of guesses, but unfortunately they are incorrect.  Are there any other takers?


----------



## armyvern

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Here is a new question:   Who proposed the division of post-war Germany into three occupation zones and which allied leader's rejection of the proposal was not passed on to the negotiation team in time for them to act on his/her wishes?   Also, was the proposal adopted?


1)The first proposal that divided Germany into three different sections, each to be governed by a different allied power, was devised by a British Cabinet committee headed by Clement Atlee. 
February, 1945 - Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin met at Yalta to make final war plans, arrange the post-war fate of Germany, and discuss the proposal for creation of the United Nations as a successor to the League of Nations. They announced a decision to divide Germany into three post-war zones of occupation.
2)Not being invited to attend the Yalta conference, Charles de Gaulle was not able to voice his objections, and thus France's, to this proposal. It was later agreed, that France would be afforded a zone within Germany.
3)The agreements of the Yalta Conference, with the addition of a 4th zone overseen by France were adopted at the Potsdam Conference, Jul-Aug 1945.


----------



## geo

new book out for those who can't or don't want to go to sleep....
"The Enigma of Barbarossa", Why stalin believed Hitler would not invade by David E Mruphy, former CIA station chief of Berlin.
...... Given how it all came down - should make for an interesting read.


----------



## redleafjumper

Good answer from Armyvern, but partially incorrect.  The Allied leader who had a delegation there (not DeGaulle) and was opposed to Clement Atlee's proposal was none other than Franklin Roosevelt.  He wanted the Russian occupation area to stop level with Berlin and for the Americans to have control over northern Germany and thus be in control of sea access.  The American delegation was unaware of Roosevelt's objection and the agreement on the three occupation zones was signed in London on 14 November 1944.  Out of Yalta, the French were given their own zone which was taken from the British and American areas.  The agreement set up the Allied Control Council which was to oversee occupied Germany.


Here's another:
In Spain during the Napoleonic wars, the Spanish had a royal guard.  How many units composed this guard and what were the national origins of these units?


----------



## STA Gunner

The Spanish Royal Guard consisted of four companies.  They were Spanish, Italian, Flemish and American.

I knew I had the answer somewhere, I just had to look it up in a book. 

My question, a 2 parter:

1.  What was the battle during the War of 1812 that prompted the American General to cry "My God, they're regulars"?

2.  West Point has permanently adopted what for their uniforms to honour the Americans who fought in that battle?


----------



## stukirkpatrick

1)  that would be the battle of Chippewa, where American soldiers under the command of Winfield Scott successfully held their own against British regulars under Phineas Riall, who were forced to retreat.

2)  West Point adopted the grey uniforms used, which were the result of a blue clothing shortage.


----------



## redleafjumper

Wow, the answers are flying thick and fast.  STA Gunner, your answer on the Spanish Royal Guard is correct.

It looks as if the other questions have been answered, but alas no new question has been provided.  How about another tough one?

What is the regiment and name of the NCO who took down the Nazi flag which had flown over the citadel of Calais and what did he do with that flag?

(I should point out that there are two claims on this flag - perhaps you might get them both!)


----------



## geo

well.... part of the answer:
On 30 September 1944 3rd Canadian Division completed the capture of Calais. The German flag which had flown from the citadel at Calais was captured by 3rd Division Signals personnel. Today, this flag is displayed in the Communications and electronics Museum in Kingston


----------



## Bill Smy

STA Gunner said:
			
		

> 1.   What was the battle during the War of 1812 that prompted the American General to cry "My God, they're regulars"?



I had always thought it was British Major General Phineas Riall who is supposedly to have made this exclamation, not an American. (Journal of the Reverend George Ferguson in the United Church Archives, Toronto). Ferguson quotes as saying, "Why, these are Regulars!", but of course as a man of the cloth he would not have used the name of God in vain. I suspect Riall was a bit more emphatic than "By God" or "Why".  :warstory:

Who fought there?

9th, 11th, 17th,19th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd, 25th, United States Infantry; Hindman's Bm, US Artillery; 5th Pennsylvania Volunteers.

Royal Artillery; 1st, 8th, 110th Foot; 2nd Lincoln Militia; Caldwell's Rangers; Essex Militia; British Indian Department.


----------



## Bill Smy

Sorry:-- I goofed. It was the 100th Foot, not the 110th. Mea Culpa. :-[


----------



## armyvern

The Red River Expeditionary Force consisted of soldiers from the Militia Units of Quebec and Ontario. What, specificly, were those soldier's who volunteered to participate at Red River awarded?


----------



## Kat Stevens

A nice hot bowl of cereal.


----------



## armyvern

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> A nice hot bowl of cereal.



Red River cereal I take it? Too funny!! But not correct!


----------



## CdnArtyWife

Each soldier was granted a "Bounty Warrant" for 160 acres of crown land.

I did not get that without the help of google.ca and http://www.rootsweb.com/~canmil/riel/rrefint.htm


----------



## armyvern

CdnArtyWife said:
			
		

> Each soldier was granted a "Bounty Warrant" for 160 acres of crown land.
> 
> I did not get that without the help of google.ca and http://www.rootsweb.com/~canmil/riel/rrefint.htm



Yay!! Arty Wife you are correct.. and for your prize... a nice hot bowl of "Red River Cereal" after your next trip to your local grocery outlet!!  ;D


----------



## redleafjumper

Geo's partially correct answer is the claim by the signals branch to have taken the flag from the Calais citadel.  It is not the only claim and quite possibly not a wholly accurate one.  Who is the other claimant, what is his regiment, name and what did he do with that flag?  (And apparently this one isn't the one in Kingston...)


----------



## armyvern

Well about all I've been able to find further to your question is:

"The Dover at War exhibition includes two full-sized recreations of a war-time kitchen and front room, complete with a real Morrison Shelter and original furniture. Other highlights include a German 1000 Kg bomb, recovered from Dover Harbour and defused, and the original Nazi Flag and Flag of Surrender from the German gun batteries at Calais, captured by the Canadians in September 1944."

http://www.dover.gov.uk/museum/press/home.asp


----------



## STA Gunner

Bill Smy said:
			
		

> I had always thought it was British Major General Phineas Riall who is supposedly to have made this exclamation, not an American. (Journal of the Reverend George Ferguson in the United Church Archives, Toronto). Ferguson quotes as saying, "Why, these are Regulars!", but of course as a man of the cloth he would not have used the name of God in vain. I suspect Riall was a bit more emphatic than "By God" or "Why".   :warstory:



You are indeed correct.  In my excitement of typing in a question (actually, I was more excited that the question previous was one I knew I had the answer for) I goofed in the wording.  But at least the truth is out  ;D.


----------



## redleafjumper

Army Vern and Geo have found two flags from the same citadel!  Here is some of the rest of the story:

According to:

http://www.img.forces.gc.ca/commelec/Brhistory/chap5_e.htm

"On 30 September 1944 3rd Canadian Division completed the capture of Calais. The German flag which had flown from the citadel at Calais was captured by 3rd Division Signals personnel. Today, this flag is displayed in the Communications and Electronics Museum in Kingston."

But conversely, Roy, R.H. in Ready for the Fray, the history of the Canadian Scottish Regiment, is quite specific:

"... Symbolic of cessation of this fire, and as a very fitting gesture on the part of a Canadian Scottish N.C.O., the Nazi flag which had flown over the citadel in Calais was taken down by Sgt. Barkhouse and sent to the Mayor of Dover." (Roy, R.H., p. 320) 

As the citadel was taken by "B" and "D" companies of the Canadian Scottish and the harbour forts garrison was surrendered to LCol Crofton (CSRegt), the Canadian Scottish claim seems credible.  I suspect that there were likely more flags around than the one on the citadel taken by Sgt. Barkhouse, but perhaps not.  If anyone has more information on the flag from the citadel, I'd like to hear about it. 

I sent a note to the  communications and electronics museum in Kingston to see if there is more information about who took which flag from where.  I will post it if I hear more.   :warstory:


----------



## redleafjumper

In 1740 Frederick the Great recruited a new body of mounted troops.  What were these troops called, what was their purpose and what career or profession were most of the first recruits?


----------



## redleafjumper

I had hoped for a nibble or two on Frederick the Great's innovative horsemen.  I have been putting forward a few questions that may not be so google friendly to make the hunt a little more challenging; I hope that is okay.   Any guesses yet?  (There is a clue in this message!)


----------



## armyvern

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> I had hoped for a nibble or two on Frederick the Great's innovative horsemen.   I have been putting forward a few questions that may not be so google friendly to make the hunt a little more challenging; I hope that is okay.     Any guesses yet?   (There is a clue in this message!)



OK, my attempt:

HUNGARIAN HUSSARS OF FREDERICK THE GREAT.

When the War of Austrian Succession began between Frederick II (later called "The Great") and Maria Theresa, the Prussian King recognized even in 1740 the superiority of the Empress' Hungarian hussars over his own traditional heavy cavalry. He sent his agents to the Habsburg empire, where they lured away a great number of hussar officers and enlisted their services for Frederick. Within two years the Prussian Army organized two new hussar regiments from these volunteers. These hussars wore the traditional Hungarian hussar uniform, richly decorated with braid and go1d trim. Frederick also recognized some national characteristics of his Hungarian hussars: extreme pride, integrity, sense of justice and dignity. In 1759 he issued a royal order which warned the Prussian officers never to offend the self-esteem of his Hungarian hussars with insu1ts and abuses. At the same time he exempted the hussars from the usual disciplinary measures of the Prussian Army: bodily punishment and cudgeling. 

Or:

In 1740 the Prussian army consisted of a sizeable army with the Infantry well drilled and disciplined if lacking experience . The Cavalry in 1740 showed their lacking which started Frederick the Great on a program that reformed the cavalry so that it could match the Austrian's on the battlefield . The expectation was surpassed and the Prussian Cavalry became a formidable foe in a very short space of time . The Prussian army had separate Grenadier battalion's on campaign which were used in advance the the army and were brigaded . 
The Artillery was improved under Frederick's direction with the battalion gun's being mostly 7lb Howitzer's by the end of the Seven Year's War 

OR 

But I also found this site before the server went down talking about the Guarde de Corps that he established in 1740....Apparently he stood up numerous Units (and just re-arranged and re-named a few) in this, his first year of reign.


----------



## redleafjumper

Hey Army Vern, a very noble attempt indeed.  Those Hussar units were formed after 1740, so sadly, they aren't correct.  The second two answers are close as it is true that many units were formed.  I will add another clue to aid clarity - The soldiers of this unit wore green and were armed with rifled carbines.  (i have probably given it away with such good clues...)


----------



## Infanteer

Jaegers?

Anyways, I thought I'd try this quiz game.  In 2002 during Operation Anaconda, the 3PPCLI BG air-assaulted into a geographic feature known as "The Whale" located in the Shah-i-kot Valley; where did this name for this feature originate from?


----------



## canadianchick

While if the defense department briefing that I found on the good old trusty internet is right then there is no real reason except that is really does look like a whale.
" When we fly, when we do operations, folks come up with names, so there's no significance to the name except that it does look like a whale's back, out of the water. "
  http://usembassy-australia.state.gov/hyper/2002/0312/epf202.htm


----------



## redleafjumper

Infanteer has provided part of the correct answer on Frederick the Great's innovation.  He developed mounted Jaegers (hunters) who were recruited from foresters and gameskeepers to serve as scouts and reconnaisance cavalry.


----------



## Infanteer

canadianchick said:
			
		

> While if the defense department briefing that I found on the good old trusty internet is right then there is no real reason except that is really does look like a whale.
> " When we fly, when we do operations, folks come up with names, so there's no significance to the name except that it does look like a whale's back, out of the water. "



Nope, that's not how my source explains it; there is a reason (hint: existing geographical formation) it got that name.


----------



## armyvern

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Nope, that's not how my source explains it; there is a reason (hint: existing geographical formation) it got that name.



Tergul Ghar (the actual Afghan name for the whale) was also also known as Objective Payback. This was a promontory foothill ridge feature which resembled a whale. The Op on this ridgeline was known as Op Harpoon??

And I also found this very interesting link on Op Anaconda & Op Harpoon:
http://www.combatreform.com/realmountaindivision.htm


----------



## RiflemanPhil

Name any of the ships that carried the Royal Green Jackets (95th Rifles) to Portugal during the Napoleonic War.


----------



## armyvern

RiflemanPhil said:
			
		

> Name any of the ships that carried the Royal Green Jackets (95th Rifles) to Portugal during the Napoleonic War.



Hmmmm,
HMS Crocodile, HMS Donegal


----------



## armyvern

To Whom did King George VIII speak the immortal words "Please God....it shall never happen again". 
Who was she?
How many sons did she have?
Name her sons that died, and the places where they fell.


----------



## Spr.Earl

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Jaegers?
> 
> Anyways, I thought I'd try this quiz game.   In 2002 during Operation Anaconda, the 3PPCLI BG air-assaulted into a geographic feature known as "The Whale" located in the Shah-i-kot Valley; where did this name for this feature originate from?


Because the geographic feature looked like the back of a whale?
A very long rising hump and declining on the reverse side?
Or was it because it was a bitch for all?


----------



## armyvern

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> Because the geographic feature looked like the back of a whale?
> A very long rising hump and declining on the reverse side?
> Or was it because it was a ***** for all?



I think Infanteer is teasing us...he was here today..but gave no hints to if we were correct or not?? Perhaps he has forgotten he was going to play this game and posted a question? Relief...we need relief!!


----------



## vangemeren

Here goes my first attempt:

King George never said such a thing, infact he never existed; it was Edward VIII who said it to Charlotte Fullman in 1936 at the unveiling of the Vimmy Memorial. She was a widower that married Fredrick Wood, who already had 6 boys. They would have 7 children together. The oldest son (not named in my source) died in South Africa in 1900. Fullman, Wood and the four youngest children emigrated to Canada in 1905. All of the 11 boys and Fred were either in the British or Canadian military by 1916.

Fred- Killed at the Somme 1916
Louis- Lost at sea when HMS Houge was torpedoed in 1914 
Joseph- Survived Gallipoli and the Somme, killed at  Passchendaele in 1917
William- survived
Arthur- survived 
Alfred- seriously wounded, survived
Frederick- survived
John- seriously wounded, survived
Herbert- survived
Harry- killed at Gallipoli in 1918
Percy- killed at Vimy in 1917 (at the age of 17)
Charles- survived

*Source:*
http://www.cwgc.org/education/imp_pop/family_can.htm


----------



## armyvern

van Gemeren said:
			
		

> Here goes my first attempt:
> 
> King George never said such a thing, infact he never existed; it was Edward VIII who said it to Charlotte Fullman in 1936 at the unveiling of the Vimmy Memorial. She was a widower that married Fredrick Wood, who already had 6 boys. They would have 7 children together. The oldest son (not named in my source) died in South Africa in 1900. Fullman, Wood and the four youngest children emigrated to Canada in 1905. All of the 11 boys and Fred were either in the British or Canadian military by 1916.
> 
> Fred- Killed at the Somme 1916
> Louis- Lost at sea when HMS Houge was torpedoed in 1914
> Joseph- Survived Gallipoli and the Somme, killed at   Passchendaele in 1917
> William- survived
> Arthur- survived
> Alfred- seriously wounded, survived
> Frederick- survived
> John- seriously wounded, survived
> Herbert- survived
> Harry- killed at Gallipoli in 1918
> Percy- killed at Vimy in 1917 (at the age of 17)
> Charles- survived
> 
> *Source:*
> http://www.cwgc.org/education/imp_pop/family_can.htm



Oh my very very BAD!! You are correct.
The eldest son's name was Richard, who died during the Kroonstad typhoid epidemic of May 1900, while serving with the British Army in South Africa.
In 1901 when the youngest son (Charles) was born the ages of the other children were as follows:
Louis (aged 19), Joseph (18), William (17), Arthur (15), Alfred (14), Ellen (12), Frederick (10), John (7), Herbert (6), Harry (4), Percy (2).
Originally known as "Canada's War Mother," Mrs. Charlotte Wood came to be Canada's first Silver Cross Mother. She was buried upon her death at age 78, 11 October 1939, in an unmarked grave at Lot 113, Section 52, of Brookside Cemetery in Winnipeg Manitoba.
She was finally given a grave marker on 3 June 2003, with an official dedication ceremony occuring on the 15th of that month. It was truly deserved.
http://www.hellfire-corner.demon.co.uk/ceris.htm


----------



## Infanteer

Okay, here is the answer from Stephan Biddle's Afghanistan and the Future of Warfare:



> Figures 3 and 4 show broader samples of the Shah-i-kot battlefield on which Anaconda was fought, including the features known as "The Whale" (after a similar rock formation at the U.S. National Training Center at Ft. Irwin California)....



Biddle gives no source, so I can't back the veracity of his statement, but his work is generally top-notch.  I just found the notion interesting - campaigning Armies tend to name features in strange areas after familiar things that are close to home; The Whale is no different.


----------



## geo

OK... let's try this question on for size:
The country is England; 
1) In what year did they abolish the buying of Commissions? and....
2) before the deed was done; how low could you go; what was the largest rank available for purchase?


----------



## North Star

Hello,

I think purchase was abolished in 1871, as part of a series of reforms. The government spent about six million pounds to buy the commissions back.

Officers could purchase their rank from Ensign/2Lt up to the rank of LCol. Col was usually given after a few years of service at LCol. However, if the officer in question was promoted to General level rank he lost his investment.


----------



## geo

Norstar you got it on the money........ 

Officers commissions including that of Lcols were purchased at generally high prices, which varied according to the branch and corps. However, it was necessary to fulfill certain conditions and to be approved by the officers and by the commander in chief of the army, who was directly responsible to the king. The purchasing of commissions was only abolished in 1871.


----------



## redleafjumper

Here's another commission question:  The signatures of which officials appear on the current commission scrolls of Canadian officers?


----------



## armyvern

The signature of the Governor General of Canada appears in the middle of the scroll and that of the Minister of National Defense appears at it's bottom:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/community/mapleleaf/html_files/html_view_e.asp?page=Vol4_12____entrenous14_15


----------



## geo

OK....
How about, which signature (or signatures) appear on the Chief Warrant Officer's "Warrant scroll"?


----------



## larry Strong

Are they not the same?


----------



## redleafjumper

No, they aren't the same.  If I correctly recall one that I saw several years ago, the warrants are signed by the Chief of the Defence Staff.  Geo will certainly sort us out when the guesses all fade!  Armyvern's answer on the commission scroll is correct.

All these questions might make a great board game - Army.ca trivial pursuit, or some such thing.


----------



## redleafjumper

What are the names of the two people who circulated a petition to form a military unit in North Vancouver in 1910?  What was the unit and who was the first CO?  For bonus points, what year was it actually formed?


----------



## geo

with respect to Redleafjumper's CDS suggestion - nope
with respect to Larry's answer...... well it depends... (yeah - trick question)

The warrant has gone through a number of editions over the last number of years.

Mine was signed by the Minister of National Defence while those that have been issued over the last couple of years have, in fact, been signed by both the MND and the Governor General.


----------



## redleafjumper

That was a good question Geo.   Those warrants are certainly more rare than commission scrolls!


----------



## geo

School of hard knocks


----------



## geo

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> What are the names of the two people who circulated a petition to form a military unit in North Vancouver in 1910?   What was the unit and who was the first CO?   For bonus points, what year was it actually formed?


On the eve of World War I there were several Lower Mainland militia units, 
the 6th Regiment (Duke of Connaught's Own Rifles);
New Westminster's infantry regiment: 
No. 18 Field Ambulance, Army Medical Corps (founded 1909); 
the 6th Field Company, Canadian Engineers (1910) of North Vancouver; 
the 72nd Seaforth Highlanders (1910); 
No. 19 Company, Army Service Corps (1912); 
No. 19 Company, Canadian Signal Corps (1912); and 
the 11th Regiment, Irish Fusiliers of Canada (1913). 

A meeting was held on May 11th 1909 Present were: Mr. Alexander Morrison (elected chairman), Dr. S.J. Tunstall, McC Hutchinson, D.C. McGregor, C.W. Sarel, Alexander Sim, J.W. Manson, Maj. J. Duff Stuart, Capt. J.S. Tait, Capt. A. Rowan, Lieut. Jas. Sclater, and Mr. A. McKinlay.
The delegates met again on January 17th, 1910 with two more members present; Mr. H.O. Bell-Irving and Mr. J. McGlashan. It was reported that application had been sent to the Minister of Militia to raise a Highland regiment in Vancouver.  It had been decided to apply for the number 72, that of the Seaforths in Scotland, and that number being vacant on the Militia List.
On July 15th, 1910 The Militia Department signified its approval of the formation of a Vancouver regiment bearing the number 72, and wearing the same uniform and tartan (Mackenzie No. 2) as the Seaforth Highlanders of the Imperial service. the authorization for the formation of the new regiment was received from the Militia Department on November 24th, 1910.  It was decided that Capt. R.G. Edward Leckie would become the Commanding Officer of the 72nd Highlanders.  Consent to the name 'Seaforth' in the title; Seaforth Highlanders of Canada, was received from the 1st and 2nd Battalions of the Imperial Seaforths in a letter dated April 11th, 1911.


----------



## redleafjumper

Geo, that's a darn fine guess, and well-researched.  The North Vancouver unit that you mention, the 6th Field Engineers, formed in 1910 is part of the correct answer.
Do you, (or others) have the rest of the information on that unit?


----------



## armyvern

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Geo, that's a darn fine guess, and well-researched.   The North Vancouver unit that you mention, the 6th Field Engineers, formed in 1910 is part of the correct answer.
> Do you, (or others) have the rest of the information on that unit?


Major James Pemberton Fell (Retired as a Colonel) was the first CO of the 6th Field Engineers but I can not find any refernece to a petition that began them.


----------



## redleafjumper

According to the book: The 6th Field Company R.C.E., in the Spring of 1910, North Vancouver residents Alexander Phillips and Donald Cameron prepared and circulated a petition that asked the authorities in Ottawa to establish a military unit in North Vancouver.  The first enrolment was held on May 7th 1912 when 30 men were taken on strength.  

As Armyvern wrote Major J.P. Fell was the first CO.  Sgt Kennedy was the acting C.S.M.


----------



## geo

Hmmm.... guess that 1910 was a big year for petitions
two coming out of Vancouver.... oh yeah - only one was billed as being "north" Vancouver.... Doh!!!
And I are an engineer too!... Dang!
Must have something to do with the fact that that field coy number (#6) eventualy got assigned to a Toronto unit...
"From The Rideau To The Rhine and Back: The 6th Field Company, Canadian Engineers in the Great War"


----------



## stukirkpatrick

In the late 1860s, several hundred Canadians volunteered to fight in a European war.   What was the war, and what unit did the Canadians fight with?


----------



## armyvern

Kirkpatrick said:
			
		

> In the late 1860s, several hundred Canadians volunteered to fight in a European war.   What was the war, and what unit did the Canadians fight with?


In 1868, Canadians fought in the Spanish Revolution as part of the Mackenzie-Papineau Battalion.


----------



## larry Strong

The Spanish Civil War took place from 1936 to 1939, and the Mackenzie-Papineau Battalion was not established until July 1937.


----------



## stukirkpatrick

Similar circumstances, different century


----------



## larry Strong

I think it's the Third Italian War of Unification, or the Austro-Prussian war ( the Seven weeks war) but I can't find at this time any reference to   Canadians, but my dollar would sit on the Canadians being Italians going home to fight.


----------



## stukirkpatrick

Along the right track, but it wasn't necessarily Italians...


----------



## larry Strong

Would they have been members of Giuseppe Garibaldi's "Red Shirt's"?


----------



## stukirkpatrick

I believe thats the wrong side of the conflict


----------



## larry Strong

The only other thing I can think of would be the Swiss Guards of the Papal Army!

It's been a long 2 week hitch at work and I am beat, can't think straight at the momment so I will see you all in the AM


----------



## stukirkpatrick

Final Clue - yes, it was on the side of the Pope, which should help you find where they came from in Canada


----------



## armyvern

OK How about this?
In 1868, 507 volunteers from French Canada served as Pontifical Zouaves until the fall of Rome in 1870.  "It was, until the South African War, the largest military contingent of Canadians to serve overseas.  In Rome, the Canadians were incorporated into the Corps of Pontifical Zouaves that had been organized by French officers since 1860 to embody the mostly French-speaking foreign volunteers.  The unit operated in French and had a then very fashionable Zouave-style uniform of grey trimmed with red (grey-blue trimmed with black for officers).  The Canadians were deployed to chase bandits and guerrillas in the hills, at which they proved quite adept, suffering few deaths (most of which were due to sickness).  Following their repatriation, the veterans formed their own association and para-military groups of Zouaves sprang up in many parishes in French Canada, acting as church guards and providing security escorts in church processions and other formal religious events."
http://www.cmhg.gc.ca/flash/glossary/default-en.asp?RT=&t=1&Num=&SID=&letter=P&page=3


----------



## stukirkpatrick

That would be it!


----------



## redleafjumper

What future Field Marshal disliked swords due to a confrontation with an enemy soldier on the western front?


----------



## geo

Field Marshals?
Hmmm.... would not have anything to do with WWII (no longer wearing swords)
so we're talking about WWI ( of All quiet on the Western front fame)

Hmmm....
Kitchener - was a FM in WW1... nope
Haig - was a FM in WW1... nope
Wavell - most of time spent in Egypt & Palestine - nope
Allen Brook - Arty, nope
Auchinlek - India, Nope
Slim - nope

So we're down to these two
Montgomery - good bet
Alexander - Inf, Irish guards, good bet


----------



## redleafjumper

Geo, I admire your analytical approach!  The correct answer is Lt. (Later field Marshall) Bernard Law Montgomery.  The future field marshall had landed in an enemy trench and confronted an armed German soldier.  He was holding his sword, but realized that he had never been instructed in how to use it for fighting.  He tossed it aside and grappled with the enemy soldier.  Who won?  Well, the winner did end up becoming a field marshall...

Perhaps this one will be more challenging: Who was the future general officer who was taken prisoner by the Germans in WW I, tried to escape several times and was nearly executed for killing a guard in one of his attempts?


----------



## geo

He tossed it aside and grappled with the enemy soldier.  Who won?  Well, the winner did end up becoming a field marshall.....

Redleaf.... Monty was repatriated back to England after receiving a gunshot to the chest (good MPI). Just a good a chance that the gunshot was the outcome of his confrontation with the sword.


----------



## redleafjumper

It's true that a sucking chest wound isn't the best sign of a victory.  'Monty' was sent to hospital in England.  When returned to the front his injury limited him to staff positions for the rest of the war.  His organizational abilities were noticed and led to bigger things.


----------



## redleafjumper

Any takers on the fellow who was taken prisoner and later became a general?  Come on, give it a go!


----------



## STA Gunner

I have no clue as to the general.

But in the spirit of keeping such a good thread alive with good military-esque trivia...

Who was the only cast member of the TV series M*A*S*H to have served in Korea (albeit not during the war)?


----------



## FormerHorseGuard

Alan Alda , he joined the Army Reserve and served for a sixth-month tour of duty as a gunnery officer in Korea.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard

what is the rumoured country  to be stilling using the last Canadian Aircraft carrier?
lost at sea is the official report in transit for ship breaking but who is rumoured to be usin it still as a carrier


----------



## larry Strong

That would have to be the HMCS Bonaventure. And if I remember India was the country that contracted to scrap her.


----------



## geo

Aircraft Carrier.... India..... the Indian navy received the Bonnie's sister ship from the RN
That one was allegedly in a really sorry shape - so it's always been rumoured that the Bonnie lives and the sister was turned into razor blades...........



Perhaps this one will be more challenging: Who was the future general officer who was taken prisoner by the Germans in WW I, tried to escape several times and was nearly executed for killing a guard in one of his attempts?

Hmmm.... remember reading something about someone becoming such a pain that they threw him onto Colditz.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard

india has gotten a few Canadian ships over the years, the last one they had to send a team over to destory  key  parts they left on board, till they  relaized they  could be used to refit Indian Navy ships, i remember reading about it in the 90s i think


----------



## geo

OK.... continuing along the lines of general officers....

Name a general that managed to get himself accidentally shot by Belgian forces.


----------



## Spr.Earl

Which Candian Uinit in WW II unit has the most honours?


----------



## geo

Earl,
Do you mean total real battle honours or are you talking about the number of battle honours that the unit is authorized to carry on their Colours... and one is never equal to t' other?

Any takers on the general who got shot by some friendlies?


----------



## redleafjumper

The future general who spend over two years as a POW was none other that Captain Charles De Gaulle.  He tried to escape and was recaptured 5 times.  In one espcape attempt he killed a guard but avoided execution as he was not blamed for the soldier's death.


----------



## geo

Aaargh.... those pesky Frenchmen (from France I mean )
And I was bustin my butt looking for a Brit... who also have a tradition of being a pain in the a$&
Good one!


----------



## armyvern

geo said:
			
		

> Aaargh.... those pesky Frenchmen (from France I mean )
> And I was bustin my butt looking for a Brit... who also have a tradition of being a pain in the a$&
> Good one!



Ah Geo so was I... we were probably both wasting our time on the same useless web-sites then!!


----------



## geo

LOL.... probably true... then again, learnt all sorts of entirely useless but entertaining trivia on General officers under whom our dads, granddads (and great granddads) faced the foe.

Coulda been a lot worse


----------



## armyvern

Name the honourary Lt who served the country in-theatre in 2 successive Wars. Between these 2 Wars, this person became the first to accomplish what (and with what corps) that would set the bar for those who would follow?


----------



## geo

hmmm..... Honorary louie?.... interesting challenge
An unnusual rank ... has to have been presented to an unnusual and exceptional man.

how about : AMBROSE MADDEN, THE SOLDIER PRIEST

in 1915 ,he went overseas with the second Brigade, arriving in France , no one knew who he was and as a joke he was given a wild horse to ride, The pranksters gathered around to watch   Father Madden thrown from the horse, but only fun to 
take place, was Father Madden riding the wild horse to a standstill.
He retired   in 1944, with the rank of   'Honorary   Lieutenant"


----------



## armyvern

geo said:
			
		

> hmmm..... Honorary louie?.... interesting challenge
> An unnusual rank ... has to have been presented to an unnusual and exceptional man.
> 
> how about : AMBROSE MADDEN, THE SOLDIER PRIEST
> 
> in 1915 ,he went overseas with the second Brigade, arriving in France , no one knew who he was and as a joke he was given a wild horse to ride, The pranksters gathered around to watch   Father Madden thrown from the horse, but only fun to
> take place, was Father Madden riding the wild horse to a standstill.
> He retired   in 1944, with the rank of   'Honorary   Lieutenant"


Excellent attempt Geo but that's not who I'm fishing for....


----------



## geo

A padre... made to "break" a horse & the 1st crack (by some fun loving OR)?... well - he'd get my vote anyway 

Oh well.... will try to find some time to fire up the search engines.


----------



## redleafjumper

There would seem to have been a great number of honourary Lieutenants, many with intriguing careers.   Perhaps some additional information might be helpful.


----------



## armyvern

armyvern said:
			
		

> Name the honourary Lt who served the country in-theatre in 2 successive Wars. Between these 2 Wars, this person became the first to accomplish what (and with what corps) that would set the bar for those who would follow?



Hmm the first to accomplish what? OK here's the hint, never assume anything.
"The unusual and exceptional man" is actually a woman.....


----------



## geo

Ooooo..... 
Vera Lynn?....


----------



## armyvern

geo said:
			
		

> Ooooo.....
> Vera Lynn?....


NO!!
Another hint...
The Wars in which she participated were not WWI & WWII...One of those Wars is correct...


----------



## geo

Winston Churchill was a reporter in the field during the Boer War.....
and ....ooohhhh... gotta check my references...

Be back later


BTW - any bites on the General who got shot by those dastardly Belgians?


----------



## redleafjumper

Hmmm, I must be having a bad day, neither the honourary Lt. nor the accidentally wounded general shot by Belgians is coming up on my research.  I first thought Model might have been the general , but that wasn't an accident!


While I am stewing over these, here is another: who is the only civilian buried in the Dieppe War cemetary and why is that person ranked as a Brigadier General?


----------



## wongskc

> Hmm the first to accomplish what? OK here's the hint, never assume anything.
> "The unusual and exceptional man" is actually a woman.....



Would this happen to be Lt. Joan Fletcher?  My history here is somewhat hazy, but she co-ordinated the evacuation of non-combatants somewhere in the Pacific, doing so with such finesse that a Japanese officer gave her his family sword as a sign of respect.  

After WWII she served in the Korean war, and after that served in the Canadian embassy to the Soviet Union conducting intelligence work.  She was evacuated after her work was discovered, but remained long enough (and at significant personal risk) to destroy documents, thereby protecting her contacts.


----------



## armyvern

wongskc said:
			
		

> Would this happen to be Lt. Joan Fletcher?   My history here is somewhat hazy, but she co-ordinated the evacuation of non-combatants somewhere in the Pacific, doing so with such finesse that a Japanese officer gave her his family sword as a sign of respect.
> 
> After WWII she served in the Korean war, and after that served in the Canadian embassy to the Soviet Union conducting intelligence work.   She was evacuated after her work was discovered, but remained long enough (and at significant personal risk) to destroy documents, thereby protecting her contacts.



A good attempt but I am looking for an Honourary Lt.


----------



## armyvern

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> While I am stewing over these, here is another: who is the only civilian buried in the Dieppe War cemetary and why is that person ranked as a Brigadier General?



Mrs. Brigadier Mary Climpson (a Lt in the Salvation Army and wife of Brigadier General Climpson):

She was transferred from the British National Headquarters to France at the outset of WWII to assist the troops. The soldier's called her 'Mother C'. She worked in a variety of Red Shield centres working hard for the benefit of the soldiers. She would write letters for wounded soldiers or lay flowers for relatives on the freshly dug graves and she would also lead religious services. After the soldiers returned to the front line they would often send her pencilled written notes on scraps of paper thanking her for her care and attention. 

She was killed on the 20th May 1940 while trying to evacute out of Arras during the rapid Nazi advance on Northern France. While travelling in a convoy towards Dieppe, the Luftwaffe began straffing along the roadway. Mrs. Brigadier Climpson was killed during this incident. Buried in a field, her remains were later re-located to the Dieppe Canadian War Cemetery, Hautot-sur-Mer, Seine-Maritime, France.
Details from the Commonwealth War Graves Commission Web-site:
http://www.cwgc.org/cwgcinternet/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=2316950

http://www1.salvationarmy.org/heritage.nsf/titles/Mrs_Brigadier_Mary_Climpson
Her Obituary: javascript:viewImage('Climpsonobit1','Climpson obit1.jpg')
Her Tribute: javascript:viewImage('ClimpsonWCTribute','Climpson WC Tribute.jpg')

May she Rest in Peace.


----------



## redleafjumper

Yes indeed, Armyvern, Mary Jane Climson is the civilian in the Dieppe War Cemetary.

Still having trouble finding this honourary Lieutenant and the General shot by the Belgians...


----------



## armyvern

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Still having trouble finding this honourary Lieutenant and the General shot by the Belgians...



Uhmm, I will post the correct answer (if it isn't discovered by then) at 2200hrs (that being 36 hours after the question was asked). I looked really hard for a tough one this time!!
One more hint: She has already been indirectly referred to (not by name) in this thread somewhere (Hey, there's only 50 pages to go through!!)....

Apparently, so did Geo, because I can't seem to find the answer to that Belgian shooter question either!!


----------



## geo

Hint about the General.................. he made Field Marshal
("dead giveaway" sort of)


----------



## armyvern

armyvern said:
			
		

> Name the honourary Lt who served the country in-theatre in 2 successive Wars. Between these 2 Wars, this person became the first to accomplish what (and with what corps) that would set the bar for those who would follow?



Nursing Sister Georgina Pope was one of four Nursing Sisters who accompanied the Canadian Force to the Boer War in Nov 1899(these 4 were mentionned previously in response to another question regarding the ship which carried them to the South African Theatre). All 4 were given the rank of Honourary Lt. Georgina Nash served as the Senior Nursing Sister at a field hospital just north of Cape Town returning to Canada in Dec 1900. She returned to South Africa for a second tour from Jan to Jun 1902 serving at a hospital in Natal.

In 1906 she became a member of the permanent Canadian Army Medical Corps working out of the Halifax Garrison Hospital.

In 1908 she attained the position of matron, the first in the history of the Canadian Army Medical Corps and would set the standard for those that would follow. 

Also deploying overseas to the European Theatre in WWI, 1917 ,she was invalided back to Canada at the end of 1918.

http://www.civilization.ca/cwm/boer/georginapope_e.html


----------



## armyvern

geo said:
			
		

> Hint about the General.................. he made Field Marshal
> ("dead giveaway" sort of)



And therefore the answer is:

Field Marshal Sir Gerald Templer, KG (1898 - 1979) who was "commissioned into the Royal Irish Fusiliers and fought in World War I where he developed a reputation for being somewhat hapless after accidentally being shot by friendly Belgian forces." 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Templer


----------



## geo

hehe..... yeah - that's him.
Can imagine the reaction of his peers when he got promoted to Field Marshal


----------



## redleafjumper

Here is one that may not be too difficult...


Who commanded the USS Monatauk when that vessel sank the CSS Nashville, and what other famous vessel did that officer command during a naval action of great historical significance?  Also, what was the new name of the CSS Nashville at the time of its sinking?


----------



## geo

Single-turreted monitor USS Montauk 
 built by John Ericsson at Continental Iron Works, Greenpoint, N.Y.; l
aunched 9 October 1862;
commissioned at New York 14 December 1862, 
Decommissioning at Philadelphia in 1865
Comdr. John L. Worden in command. 

In February 1862, he was given command of theironclad Monitor and took her into a historic battle with CSS Virginia on 9 March 1862.

CSS Nashville, a 1221-ton side-wheel steamer, was originally a passenger steamer converted to a lightly-armed cruiser. Nashville made one combat cruise under the Confederate Navy flag, starting in October 1861.Returning to American waters early in 1862, she ran the blockade into Beaufort, North Carolina and later   to Georgetown, South Carolina.
Sold to private interests and renamed Thomas L. Wragg, she operated as a blockade runner, but was hindered in this employment by her deep draft. After arrival near Savannah, Georgia, she was sold again in November 1862, to become a privateer under the name Rattlesnake. On 28 February 1863, while still in the Savannah area, she was destroyed by the monitor USS


----------



## armyvern

geo said:
			
		

> hehe..... yeah - that's him.
> Can imagine the reaction of his peers when he got promoted to Field Marshal



I'm quite surprised that they didn't shoot him too!!  :threat:


----------



## redleafjumper

Geo certainly nailed the correct answer about the famous commander of the Monitor who retired as a Rear Admiral of the USN.  Another easy short snapper from the American Civil War:  

What was the name of Robert E. Lee's horse that he rode for much of the Civil War?  What colour was that horse?


----------



## geo

Robert E Lee horse?.... he had more than one

Traveller - Gray (his "colt")
Lucy Long - Sorrel mare

Traveller was of the ' Gray Eagle' stock, and, as a colt, took the first premium under the name of 'Jeff Davis' at the Lewisburg fairs for each of the years 1859 and 1860
sold to General Lee for $200 in currency in February 1862

Lucy Long was a present to General Lee from General J. E. B. Stuart in 1862, when the former was conducting the Sharpsburg campaign.


----------



## redleafjumper

Geo is correct, Robert E. Lee did have more than one horse.  His favourite, Traveller carried him to and from the surrender at Appotomax.
The terms dictated to him by General Grant showed very much Grant as a "strategic general" in that they were clearly aimed at reconciliation.  An interesting point about Lee is that he is probably unique in history as being offered command of both opposing armies in a war. 

Let's go to one of my favourite periods, the Napoleonic wars.  In 1803 an Indian fortress that was thought to be impregnable fell.  What was the significance of the fall of this fort, what was its name and who was the officer that led the assault over the wall?


----------



## Danjanou

The fortress was Gawilghur and it fell on December 15th , 1803 after being stormed by  British ( mostly Scottish actually) and Sepoy troops under Sir Arthur Wellesley. Not sure of who actually lead the forlorn hope into the breach as I'm at work and my references are at home. 

Bernard Cornwall's _Sharpe's Fortress_ actually gives a fair account of the campaign although naturally his literary hero (then) Ensign Richard Sharpe is credited with leading the Forlorn Hope.


----------



## Danjanou

I think the name of the officer who lead the final assault was Lockhart. Not sure if he was a Major or L/Col and if he was a Engineer, staff officer or 78th Highlander who provided most of the assualt troops.

As for the significance. This more or less ended armed rebellion/French interference in India and was Wellesley's last battle in India. He saile for England son after and then on to glory in Denmark, Portugal, Spain, France an Belgium.


----------



## redleafjumper

Hello Danjanou, nice to see you back in this forum!  The officer credited with getting the first group over the wall through personal example is one Captain Campbell of the 94th Highlanders.  I believe that the Bernard Cornwell novel that you referred to substitutes Captain Campbell's efforts with those of the fictional Sharpe character.  It's amazing what people will volunteer to do to get a promotion!  

As stated, or at least implied in your answer, the significance of the fall of fortress Gawilghur was that it meant the end of the Mahratta uprising, which in turn allowed the British to concentrate their efforts against Napoleon in other theatres.  I understood that the fortress fell on December 13, 1803, not December 15, but I am willing to be corrected!


----------



## redleafjumper

What tactic of the English provoked the initial attack of the French upon the English line at Agincourt on October 25, 1415?


----------



## geo

showing a "weak" flank where lots of nobility were visible... behind a screen of yeomanry / archers - unarmoured rabble.....

Knights made a living from capturing and holing nobles ransom... regardless of country. That's how knights made their living... Armoured Kinghts did not give much respect to the yeomanry. So when they saw this bright shiny prize within their grasp, they ignored the French General's battle plan and struck out for hostages and booty.

Between the english longbow and some extremely gummy mud conditions in that area, the knights were brought down. The heavy armour suddenly became a hinderance and the French knights were picked off...
(there was s special on the History channel just last week.... )


----------



## redleafjumper

Geo, It's a pretty good guess, but alas, incomplete.  I didn't see the special, but I did read the book.   ;D  There was one specific act that Henry had his troops do to goad the French into attacking and it worked as expected; that act is the tactic that I am looking for.  It is useful to consider that the two sides had spent a few hours just staring at each other waiting for something to happen and that the English had prepared their defensive position by planting sharpened sticks around their front.


----------



## Danjanou

Hey Bud you're most welcome.

Home now and checked my sources and it was Captain Campbell commanding the light company of the 94th aka The Scotch Brigade who lead the assault, and incidentally whose exploits were given to Richard Sharpe in the novel by Cornwell. The fortress did fall on the 15th BTW.

Re Agincourt I believe that the answer you're looking for (and being scuplously honest I'm not googling nor running to the book cases in the other room) is the two finger salute given by the Longbowmen to the French which goaded them into a rather enraged but ill thought out action.


----------



## geo

Hmmm... 1st reaction would be to say that they "mooned" the opposition.

sober second thought would be that they would have had the longbowmen fire off a number of flights of arrows.... thereby suggesting that there was a depleted inventory on hand.

One of the things they analysed was the ground @ Argincourt... the earth would absorb a lot of water and create a mud that would create a vacuum to metal plate that was immersed in the stuff.
at the same time, cloth footwear which would have been worn by the yeomen could pull free relatively easily...

Henry also had the prisonner knights executed.... lucky he isn't around nowadays to face war crimes charges.


----------



## armyvern

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Geo, It's a pretty good guess, but alas, incomplete.   I didn't see the special, but I did read the book.     ;D   There was one specific act that Henry had his troops do to goad the French into attacking and it worked as expected; that act is the tactic that I am looking for.   It is useful to consider that the two sides had spent a few hours just staring at each other waiting for something to happen and that the English had prepared their defensive position by planting sharpened sticks around their front.



Just prior to the beginning of the battle, after standing there waiting for something to happen, Henry had the English simulate flight on their left wing. This provoked the charge by the French knights against the archers. The English, of course, were expecting this and and quickly attacked the enemy, moving the English archers to the sides of the calvalry and concentrating on the weakly protected flanks of the horses, bringing them down quickly. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Poitiers_(1356)


----------



## redleafjumper

Both are respectable answers.  

The command was "Loose" and a flight of arrows at long range from the famed English longbows goaded the French mounted knights forward starting the series of events that led to disaster for the French.  Keegan in his book, The Face of Battle, has a very good description of the Agincourt battle.  The archers had placed the sharpened sticks into the ground to toughen their position.

By the way, Danjanou, you are correct, Gawilghur did fall on 15 December, 1803 not on the 13th as I previously indicated.  I think that the two finger salute dated from the time of Agincourt (or perhaps Crecy?) as a reminder to the French of how they lost and to show that the bowmen still had their fingers and could use them, as there was a standing threat to cut off the fingers of the hated English longbowmen.

What was one of the other names for a vehicle designated "VK4503" and what was the main difference in the two production models?


----------



## larry Strong

*What was one of the other names for a vehicle designated "VK4503" and what was the main difference in the two production models?*


Konig Tiger.
The main diff between the two models was the turret, The Henschel turret was square and angular on the front, where as the Porsche one was rounded

Posrche on top in photo


----------



## redleafjumper

Well done Larry.  The Panzerkampfwagen VI Ausf B (Sd Kfz 182), Tiger II, Konigstiger, Pz Kpfw Tiger Ausf B was the premier heavy tank of Germany in WW2.  It mounted the 88mm  L/71 gun, improved over the 88mm L/56 mounted in the Tiger 1.  There were two turrets, the Porsche and the Henschel version.  Th first 50 built had Porsche turrets, that design had a bullet trap resulting from the curved front so the Henschel design was used for the remaining tanks.  489 were built in Karlsruhe from January 1944 to March 1945.  A running vehicle is in the Deutsche Panzer Museum in Munster, Germany.


----------



## larry Strong

Thanks.  Yeah, I would love to see it running. I know a guy in the UK who went and saw a Tigerl do it's thing, he said  the roar from the engine was unbelievable and the thought of a plt of them coming for him was a scary thought.


----------



## redleafjumper

I actually had the rare privilege of climbing into the turret of the drivable Tiger 1 in Munster for a picture.  The director of the panzermuseum gave a friend of mine permission for me to do it during a brief lull of visitors in the room where it is kept.  As a history buff and army guy, it was quite an an experience.  My German friend told the director that I was a visiting Canadian army officer and that it was my birthday.  He asked if I knew my way around tanks and then gave permission.  It was amusing that his name was the same as a well-known German armour commander from the war; I suspect it wasn't a coincidence.  A great museum, I have been to it twice now; on that visit I was there for a few hours.  Naturally my wife had long since headed for the cafes...

http://www.munster.de/pzm/content/kontakt/english.htm


----------



## 3rd Herd

In what Canadian city did the following occur
1) Air Raid shelters built
2) Gas masks distributed to civil populace
3) Sand stockplied for use against incendiary bombs
4) Plans established for entire civil populace evacuation ala "Dunkirk" 
put your thinking caps on


----------



## redleafjumper

In what Canadian city did the following occur
1) Air Raid shelters built
2) Gas masks distributed to civil populace
3) Sand stockplied for use against incendiary bombs
4) Plans established for entire civil populace evacuation ala "Dunkirk"  



That sounds like Victoria, or Prince Rupert in WW2.   Certainly Vancouver Island was a jittery place after Pearl Harbour.
Gas masks were widely distributed, I have two that were issued in the central interior of BC.   Vancouver, as a major port, developed an air raid warning plan and actually had wardens in the British style.   The Japanese were sending incendiary bomb-laden balloons across the Pacific, but these were largely ineffective.


----------



## 3rd Herd

Pick one, and any idea where the civil populace was to be evacuted to?   Actually the whole process started prior to Pearl Harbour( August 18, 1941) with the fall of Hong Kong and Singapore. Who knew where the Japanese carriers were headed next. Alas the US use of magic provided alot of information but not all. As for the balloons being in effective we had a particular run of unseasonally heavy rains which contributed to their lack of success. At one point the Japanese were going to attach CBW to the balloons but the Crown Prine veto'd the idea for fear the balloons would drift east and bring an early entery by the Soviet Union into the Pacific theater.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

heh


----------



## redleafjumper

I believe that both Victoria and Prince Rupert had plans of that scope, but if you want me to choose one, I'd go with Victoria.


----------



## 3rd Herd

RedLeaf
You guessed right-Victoria, plans were in effect to evacuate the civil population to Port Townsend in Washington State. Further plans included the evacuation of the entire province with minefields and demolitions to prevent a Japanese attack into Alberta. I happened to come across the proposed mine field and demolition maps and other research goodies such as resistance organization, stay behind parties etc.You'll never guess who was behind it-a provincial politician


----------



## Spr.Earl

In WW II which Unit in the C.F. was awarded the most Honours?


----------



## armyvern

The Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment (The Hasty P's) earned a total of 31 battle honours during WWII (with most earned after they entered the fighting in Italy in 1943) becoming the most decorated Unit of WWII.


----------



## redleafjumper

I concur with Armyvern's post, the Hasty P's are the ones to beat in collecting WW2 battle honours.

I have another Napoleonic question:  What unit of the allied army is noted for having rode en masse to Brussels to announce the defeat of Wellington's army at Waterloo and, what was the consequence of taking that action for that unit?


----------



## 3rd Herd

My guess is the
​The Cumberland Hussars

They were a regiment of Hanoverians who were seen leaving the battlefield early on and when an Aide sent by Wellington asked their colonel why he said that his men were all volunteers who had paid for their own uniforms and horses and that he had no confidence in them and was therefore taking them back to Brussels.

One person described the situation as 'the road to Brussels as being so crowded with fugitives that Wellington had no choice but to hold his ground'. Some units like the Duke of Cumberland's Hussars left the field after being ordered to charge a second time.

Once some rascals of the Cumberland Hussars, a new Corps of Hanoverians (not of the style of our noble and gallant old comrades, the 1st Hussars), came galloping in, declaring they were pursued by Frenchmen.


----------



## redleafjumper

3rd Herd is correct, The Duke of Cumberland's Hussars abandoned the field at Waterloo.  The unit was broken up and the members distributed to other units.


What was the "Pig War" and who won it?


----------



## 3rd Herd

Pig war- San Juan Islands 18++ something or other-we lost the war 

or for a more in depth explination

A wandering pig set off an armed confrontation between Canada and the United States and it lasted for twelve years. The incident occurred June 15,1859, a warm summer's day on San Juan Island, just east of Victoria, B.C. Farmer Lyman Cutler stepped out onto his balcony to find that a pig, owned by the Hudson's Bay Company, was once again rooting around in his garden. Enraged, he promptly shot the pig. The Hudson's Bay Company threatened to take farmer Cutler to Victoria for trial in a British Columbia, but the Americans would not hear of such a thing. The treaty of 1846 had established that the international boundary line lay in mid-channel in the Strait of Juan de Fuca , which they claimed made San Juan Island American territory. The problem was that there were at least two channels. The argument smoldered for months until the Americans called in the military. Captain George Pickett arrived July 26, 1859 and immediately proclaimed the island U.S. territory. The following week 61 Royal Marines, with a different point of view, stepped ashore from a British warship. for the next twelve years armed detachments faced each other across the western end of the long international boundary. In 1871, under the treaty of Washington, the matter was referred to Emperor Wilhelm 1 of Germany for arbitration. He awarded the verdict to the United States.


----------



## armyvern

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> What was the "Pig War" and who won it?



"The "Pig War" is the name commonly given to the 13-year standoff between the American Army and British Royal Navy on San Juan Island that began in the summer of 1859 after an American settler shot a British pig on the island that both nations claimed. The "war" is celebrated because it was ultimately resolved by negotiation and compromise instead of by guns and force, and there were no casualties except the pig. The confrontation and its resolution are also significant in Washington history because the award of the San Juans (San Juan, Orcas, Lopez, Shaw, and many smaller islands) to the United States instead of Great Britain led to the The military confrontation between the United States and Great Britain over the San Juan Islands known as the "Pig War" lasted for 13 years from the shooting of the pig in 1859 until its belated but peaceful resolution in 1872. creation of Washington's San Juan County and finalized the borders of the state that exist today." 

http://www.historylink.org/results.cfm?search_library=cyberpedia&searchletter=S


----------



## Acorn

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> Pick one, and any idea where the civil populace was to be evacuted to?   Actually the whole process started prior to Pearl Harbour( August 18, 1941) with the fall of Hong Kong and Singapore. Who knew where the Japanese carriers were headed next. Alas the US use of magic provided alot of information but not all.



I think Michael Dorosh picked that up. Surprised no-one else commented/snickered.


----------



## Acorn

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> A wandering pig set off an armed confrontation between Canada and the United States and it lasted for twelve years. The incident occurred June 15,1859, a warm summer's day on San Juan Island, just east of Victoria, B.C. Farmer Lyman Cutler stepped out onto his balcony to find that a pig, owned by the Hudson's Bay Company, was once again rooting around in his garden. Enraged, he promptly shot the pig. The Hudson's Bay Company threatened to take farmer Cutler to Victoria for trial in a British Columbia, but the Americans would not hear of such a thing. The treaty of 1846 had established that the international boundary line lay in mid-channel in the Strait of Juan de Fuca , which they claimed made San Juan Island American territory. The problem was that there were at least two channels. The argument smoldered for months until the Americans called in the military. Captain George Pickett arrived July 26, 1859 and immediately proclaimed the island U.S. territory. The following week 61 Royal Marines, with a different point of view, stepped ashore from a British warship. for the next twelve years armed detachments faced each other across the western end of the long international boundary. In 1871, under the treaty of Washington, the matter was referred to Emperor Wilhelm 1 of Germany for arbitration. He awarded the verdict to the United States.



Is the above your work or should you provide a source?


----------



## armyvern

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> Pig war- San Juan Islands 18++ something or other-we lost the war
> 
> or for a more in depth explination


Not trying to be rude or anything here 3rd Herd, but usually when we edit our posts we provide:

Edited to add:
"or for a more in depth explination (SIC)

.........." 

Especially when we are editing an earlier post to add in an answer. Especially when the answer   had already been provided by some else after your original post but before your edit. Play fair!! There are no prizes here!!


----------



## redleafjumper

Hee Hee, I find it tremendously ironic that the answers to the question about a war in which the only casualty was a pig have invoked such passionate discourse!  I would say that Armyvern's answer is the more completely correct explanation of  events.  But regardless, let's not fight over it. 


What significant memorial of WW2  is located near where the Magna Carta was signed?


----------



## armyvern

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> But regardless, let's not fight over it.


As long as he plays fair!!  


			
				redleafjumper said:
			
		

> What significant memorial of WW2   is located near where the Magna Carta was signed?



The Runnymeade Commonwealth Air Forces Memorial dedicated to thousands of Commonwealth Airmen with no known graves.

Commonwealth Air Forces Memorial at Runnymeade:

http://collections.ic.gc.ca/courage/airforcesmemorials.html


----------



## redleafjumper

Armyvern, you nailed it yet again.  The Commonwealth Air Forces Memorial at Runnymede stands as a tribute to those brave aircrew who laid down their lives for King and country in WW2.

This one is probably easily found on an internet search but it is a nice change of era:

To what does Oakeshott's Typology refer?


----------



## clasper

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Armyvern, you nailed it yet again.   The Commonwealth Air Forces Memorial at Runnymede stands as a tribute to those brave aircrew who laid down their lives for King and country in WW2.


Including one Clasper.



> This one is probably easily found on an internet search but it is a nice change of era:
> 
> To what does Oakeshott's Typology refer?



Swords.
http://www.oakeshott.org/Typo.html


----------



## 3rd Herd

My apologies I am still learning the appropriate rules and your not being rude. Pig war info was a cut and paste and I forgot to add url. As for the info on evac of Victoria and the defense/war on the west coast. I have been collecting primary source info-letters, news paper articles memorandums, unit diaries, privy council minutes, access for information here in Canada and the US since I got into a pissing contest with a third year prof. If I can get my scanner up and running and if there is some interest I will post some of this information. Most has been confirmed by at  least two  other independent sources. I have also managed to access a fair amount of recently declassified information in the states-magic intercepts, readiness reports, operation plans. Information out of Japan has been harder to come by as they destroyed alot of the documents in the closing days of the war and their archival research costs are astronomical. As for who wins I want the next question, maybe I am warped but I happen to enjoy this stuff.
cheers


----------



## Ammogod

. Ewart Oakeshott is perhaps the most noted student of swords, and his contribution to our knowledge is significant. In order to make his research easier, he divided the swords into types. In contrast to other typologies, like Petersen's Viking sword typology that only focuses on the hilt form, Oakeshott's typology concentrates on the blade and its function. His system makes it easier to date the swords, and coupled with his classifying of the hilt parts it become rather easy to tell the approximate age of a certain sword. The typology isn't complete or perfect, something Oakeshott is the first to admit, but it is nonetheless one of the best ways to understand the development of the medieval sword. Please note that the swords illustrated are single specimens, and that there are variations within each type.


from google
 http://www.algonet.se/~enda/oakeshott_eng.htm


----------



## RiflemanPhil

What was the name of the knife used by the 1st Spec. Service Force in WW2?


----------



## 3rd Herd

Named after Capt Bruce Fairbin(not sure of spelling)Dagger. Originally made I think back in the 1920's or begining of the 1930's in SE Asia .


----------



## chrisf

Fairbairn Sykes dagger perhaps?


----------



## redleafjumper

Ammogod's explanation on Oakshott's typology  is correct.  The answer for the knife is the Sykes-Fairburn fighting knife.


----------



## redleafjumper

Hmmm.  I forgot to provide another question with my last post.  Let's see,  

How many long sun rays are there on the Australian Army slouch hat cap badge?


----------



## STA Gunner

According to this

http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/badges-asstd/chart.JPG

It is thirteen.

What is the name of the effects of an artillery round that cause it to  drift from a true trajectory? (hint, there are two effects)


----------



## geo

Hmmm.... UBIQUE!! (all over the place)
the giving effect AND
the receiving effect?   
( I know that's not the correct answer but I couldn't resist)
Chimo!


----------



## Old Sweat

STA Gunner

Could you be a little more precise? Are you talking about drifting left or right of the trajectory? If so, there is movement caused by the rotation imparted by the rifling (drift) as well as the natural effect that causes an object in motion to move towards the area of lesser air pressure. (it has been a long time, but I believe that is the coreollis [sp??] effect.) There also are the effects of cross wind and the rotation of the earth.


----------



## armyvern

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> How many long sun rays are there on the Australian Army slouch hat cap badge?


Long Sun rays? I'm going with 9.

Vern

Edited to add:

Actually after a review of the poster so conveniently provided I'm changing my answer to 7.


----------



## redleafjumper

Seven it is!  Good work Armyvern.  Nice of STA Gunner to provide the graphic, but it was specified to count only the long rays.


----------



## armyvern

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Seven it is!   Good work Armyvern.   Nice of STA Gunner to provide the graphic, but it was specified to count only the long rays.


Yes, it was nice of him and he deserves 50% credit towards the correct answer. Isn't he going to kick himself in the butt for that one??  ;D


----------



## redleafjumper

Fair enough, a 50% to STA Gunner for the picture of the Aussie badge.  


What is a gambeson and what would a real one be made of?


----------



## armyvern

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Fair enough, a 50% to STA Gunner for the picture of the Aussie badge.
> What is a gambeson and what would a real one be made of?


Wow...
"A cloth or leather tunic, usually worn underneath metal armour, although sometimes worn by itself"
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=X&start=1&oi=define&q=http://www.mda.org.uk/archobj/archobjg.htm
"Quilted linen jacket stuffed with flax or rags, worn as a body defense by infantry and over the hauberk by poor knights and sergeants."
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=X&start=0&oi=define&q=http://www.renaissancemagazine.com/glossary/glossaryg-j.html
"Covering worn under body armor, usually made of wool."
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=X&start=2&oi=define&q=http://library.thinkquest.org/10949/glossary/
"padded garment worn under hauberk; also know as a gibbon, pourpoint or doublet"
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=X&start=3&oi=define&q=http://romancereaderatheart.com/medieval/timeline/
"A close-fitting, quilted tunic of defence, stuffed with wool, tow, rags, etc. Later called the gipon."
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=X&start=4&oi=define&q=http://home.olemiss.edu/~tjray/medieval/chivarlic.htm
"sometimes used to refer to the aketon, the gambeson more commonly in the period referred to a quilted and decorated coat-armour of the late 14th century, worn over the breastplate, or alone."
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=X&start=5&oi=define&q=http://www.historicalweapons.com/armourterminology.html
"A quilted garment worn under armour for protection against impact and abrasion"
A quilted garment worn under armour for protection against impact and abrasion
"also Gambais, Gambaisel, Gambaison, Gamboison, Gambison. padded garment worn beneath mail hauberk, probably sleeveless, possibly from Byzantine."
also Gambais, Gambaisel, Gambaison, Gamboison, Gambison. padded garment worn beneath mail hauberk, probably sleeveless, possibly from Byzantine.
"A gambeson (or aketon) is a padded defensive surcoat, worn as armour separately, or combined with mail or plate armour. Gambeson were produced with a sewing technique called quilting. Usually constructed of linen or wool, the stuffing varied, and could be for example scrap cloth or horse hair. During the 14th century, illustrations usually show buttons or laces up the front."
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=X&start=8&oi=define&q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambeson
Apparently the possibilities may be endless!!


----------



## redleafjumper

A thorough answer for the Gambeson from Armyvern, yet again.   Methinks someone missed a calling as a research librarian!

Let's have a more challenging question for a change:

Scipio laid seige to a city in Spain in 134 B.C.; it fell in 133 B.C.   What was the city, how many troops in how many camps did the besiegers have, and finally, what caused the defenders to surrender?   If you feel really motivated, what was the significance of the war during which this seige took place?

edited for correction of typo


----------



## BetterThanTheBest

Scipio laid seige to Numantia. He had between 50,000 and 60,000 troops, mostly recruited locally, who were located in seven linked camps surrounding the city. The war was significant because Rome had suffered several humiliating defeats and setbacks in Spain while fighting the Celtiberians.


----------



## redleafjumper

Better Than The Best, your concise answer is correct.  I would add that the Spanish Wars of the second century revealed serious problems in the Roman Army of the time in terms of campaigns in faraway lands, and the danger of the limited command of the Praetors and Consuls.  They would command for one year and normally not be renewed on the expiry of their term. The intrigues of various Roman Generals and the support given to their activities by the senate made the problem worse.

Another Roman question:

Who were the four emperors and in what year did they reign?


----------



## RiflemanPhil

As a matter of fact, the First Special Service Force did not officially use the Sykes-Fairburn knife. They instead used the V42, designed by their CO. Google it. the Sykes-Fairburn was used by other commandos, especially for the oss and soe.


----------



## RiflemanPhil

The four emperors (to my knowledge) Galba, Otho and Vitellius and Vespasian. They ruled in 68-69 AD, after Nero's suicide


----------



## redleafjumper

Rifleman Phil is right.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

"The forced suicide of emperor Nero, in 68 AD, was followed by a brief period of civil war (the first Roman civil war since Antony's death in 31 BC) known as the Year of the four emperors. Between June of 68 and December of 69 AD, Rome witnessed the successive rise and fall of Galba, Otho and Vitellius until the final accession of Vespasian, first ruler of the Flavian dynasty. This period of civil war has become emblematic of the cyclic political disturbances in the history of the Roman Empire. The military and political anarchy created by this civil war had serious implications, such as the outbreak of the Batavian rebellion."

I want to look into this V42, Sykes-Fairburn knife question some more...


----------



## Danjanou

Here's some details/illustrations on the V-42 Knife carried by the 1st SSF

http://www.gutterfighting.org/v42.html

http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/fssf.htm

And the more well known Fairborn-Sykes (Sykes-Fairborn?) Commando Dagger

http://www.army-surplus.co.uk/Merchant2/4.13/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=1&Product_Code=KMT03&Category_Code=K

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6564627143&category=72046

Similar but different animals.


----------



## redleafjumper

Rifleman Phil is correct about the V42 being the knife of the FSSF; there is a great deal of information on the web about it and the Sykes Fairburn knife that it emulated.  This site has an article and picture of three versions of Sykes-Fairburn fighting knives, including the V42 variant designed by and for the First Special Service Force.  

The photo is here:

http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/stilettos.jpg

See also the article with the picture here.type 

http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/stiletto.html

(edited to correct typo)


----------



## redleafjumper

Hmm, no new questions for awhile.  Here's one from the Great War:

Who was Ducky Norwest and how did he get the nickname "Ducky"?


----------



## larry Strong

Henry  Norwest was born in Fort Saskatchewan, Alberta, of French-Cree ancestry.   In his nearly three years of service with the 50th Canadian Infantry Battalion, he achieved a sniping record of 115 fatal shots.   Earned the MM in 1917. The following year, Norwest was awarded a bar to his MM. On August 18, three months before the war ended, Norwest and two others were looking for a nest of troublesome enemy snipers. A sniper's bullet hit the Métis marksman, killing him instantly.

Still trying to find out why he was called 'Ducky"


----------



## redleafjumper

Great answer so far Larry, it shouldn't be too hard to find out about super sniper Norwest's nickname.


----------



## larry Strong

Thanks  Every thing I have found out so far _imply's_ he showed up with the nick name. I would _assume_ damn I hate that word, that if it had to do with one of his, I am sure many exploits it would be in his bio, with him being a sniper I could think of a few ways he could have earned it, might have had some thing to do with his rodeo background. Yup, well off I go again on the search  tata


----------



## redleafjumper

As a hint, I understand that Ducky got the nickname while on leave... and certainly as a result of leave.


----------



## armyvern

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Hmm, no new questions for awhile.   Here's one from the Great War:
> Who was Ducky Norwest and how did he get the nickname "Ducky"?



"Lance Corporal Henry 'Ducky' Norwest, MM and bar, (1888 â â€œ 1918). Albert Regiment, 50th Battalion Canadian Infantry.
The psychology of the sniper is an intriguing one, and none so more than 'Ducky' Norwest who followed his trade on the Western Front with an unusual degree of application, industry and cunning. His record British sniper toll was 115 'confirmed kills', all of which are said to have been confirmed by his 'official observer' Private Oliver 'Shorty' Payne. How many 'non-confirmed kills' there were is not known.
Norwest was a Métis (Cree Indian/French) former rodeo rider and ranch hand and, latterly, a Mountie (Canadian Northwest Mounted Police). He was born in Alberta on the Hobbema Indian Reserve. He first joined the Canadian Army on the 2nd January 1915 but was discharged for drunkeness. After the short spell as the Mountie he re-enlisted in September 1915 and, as part of the reinforcements for the Canadian Expeditionary Force, sailed for France in August 1916.
*His nickname of 'Ducky' is said to have been derived from a comment he made that whilst he was on leave in London, 'I had to duck the girls there'.*
Norwest always used the standard Canadian Ross rifle with telescopic sights and a modified stock. Norwest's astounding sniper toll was said to be due to his supreme markmanship, stealth tactics and his command of camouflage. In addition to his sniping skills he was said to be an expert on reconnaissance and carried out many missions into No mans land.
He was awarded a MM for his actions during the Canadian attack on Vimy Ridge in April 1917 and a posthumous bar to his MM in1918.
His nemesis came on 18th August 1918, when on a mission in the Fouquecourt Sector, France, to eliminate some particularly troublesome German snipers: one of the German snipers shot him through the head.
On his temporary grave marker his comrades wrote 'It must have been a damned good sniper that got Norwest'"

http://www.westernfront.co.uk/thegreatwar/articles/individuals/notableindividualsmtoo.htm


----------



## redleafjumper

Ducky Norwest was always ducking the girls that wanted to go out with a real red Indian from Canada!

Armyvern has well completed the answer to the question about this Canadian hero.

What was the implement known as the "trench broom"?


----------



## Michael OLeary

The Thompson Submachine Gun.


----------



## redleafjumper

I knew that the Thompson SMG Trench Broom would be an easy one!  Quick response Michael.


Who was it that "...shouldered their packs with Marechal Saxe.."


----------



## Michael OLeary

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Who was it that "...shouldered their packs with Marechal Saxe.."




Maurice, comte de Saxe (Moritz von Sachsen, 1696-1750) was a general and military theorist who successfully led French armies during the War of the Austrian Succession (1740-48).

http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/l/la_tour/maurice/com_saxe.html


----------



## redleafjumper

Yes, that is indeed Marechal Saxe, but who is it that (more of a hint - almost a giveaway) "...carried our packs with Marechal Saxe when Louis was our King..."


----------



## Michael OLeary

Would that be the "Wild Geese", the Irish Brigade?


----------



## redleafjumper

That is close enough, it is the Irish Guards as in Kipling's poem.  Kipling's son was killed in WW1 when serving as an officer in the Irish Guards.

The Irish Guards
1918 
Rudyard Kipling

________________________________________
WE'RE not so old in the Army List,
    But we're not so young at our trade,
For we had the honour at Fontenoy
    Of meeting the Guards' Brigade.
'Twas Lally, Dillon, Bulkeley, Clare,
    And Lee that led us then,
And after a hundred and seventy years
    We're fighting for France again!
        Old Days! The wild geese are flighting,
            Head to the storm as they faced it before!
        For where there are Irish there's bound to be fighting,
            And when there's no fighting, it's Ireland no more!

Ireland no more!
The fashion's all for khaki now,
    But once through France we went
Full-dressed in scarlet Army cloth,
    The Englishâ â€left at Ghent.
They're fighting on our side to-day
    But, before they changed their clothes,
The half of Europe knew our fame,
    As all of Ireland knows!
        Old Days! The wild geese are flying,
            Head to the storm as they faced it before!
        For where there are Irish there's memory undying,
            And when we forget, it is Ireland no more!

Ireland no more!
From Barry Wood to Gouzeaucourt,
    From Boyne to Pilkem Ridge,
The ancient days come back no more
    Than water under the bridge.
But the bridge it stands and the water runs
    As red as yesterday,
And the Irish move to the sound of the guns
    Like salmon to the sea.
        Old Days! The wild geese are ranging,
            Head to the storm as they faced it before!
        For where there are Irish their hearts are unchanging,
            And when they are changed, it is Ireland no more!

Ireland no more!
We're not so old in the Army List,
    But we're not so new in the ring,
For we carried our packs with Marshal Saxe
    When Louis was our King.
But Douglas Haig's our Marshal now
    And we're King George's men,
And after one hundred and seventy years
        We're fighting for France again!
        Ah, France! And did we stand by you,
            Then life was made splendid with gifts and rewards?
        Ah, France! And will we deny you
            In the hour of your agony, Mother of Swords?
        Old Days! The wild geese are flighting,
            Head to the storm as they faced it before!
        For where there are Irish there's loving and fighting,
            And when we stop either, it's Ireland no more!
Ireland no more!


----------



## redleafjumper

Who were the two commanders at the 1801 battle of Alexandria, what was the prize and which commander was victorious?


----------



## Big Foot

The commanders were General Menou for the french and Sir Ralph Abercromby for the British. The British ultimately won and the prize was the territory around the ruins of Nicopolis.


----------



## redleafjumper

Big Foot, that is a pretty good effort, and almost completely correct.  Sir Ralph Ambercrombie, Britain's best and most experienced general at the time, defeated French General Menou in a very bloody battle at Alexandria and captured Cairo.  

That's enough for me tonight, time to get my boots spit-shone for Remembrance Day.  Here's an appropriate one - who wrote "...lest we forget, lest we forget."?


----------



## Edward Campbell

I'm usually way, way too slow for this crowd, but since it's poetical and Kipling, to boot:



> *GOD OF OUR FATHERS*
> 
> God of our fathers, known of old,
> Lord of our far-flung battle-line,
> Beneath whose awful Hand we hold
> Dominion over palm and pine â â€
> Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
> Lest we forget â â€ lest we forget!
> 
> The tumult and the shouting dies;
> The captains and the kings depart:
> Still stands Thine ancient sacrifice,
> An humble and a contrite heart.
> Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
> Lest we forget â â€ lest we forget!
> 
> Far-called, our navies melt away;
> On dune and headland sinks the fire:
> Lo, all our pomp of yesterday
> Is one with Nineveh and Tyre!
> Judge of the Nations, spare us yet,
> Lest we forget â â€ lest we forget!
> 
> If, drunk with sight of power, we loose
> Wild tongues that have not Thee in awe,
> Such boastings as the Gentiles use,
> Or lesser breeds without the Law â â€
> Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
> Lest we forget â â€ lest we forget!
> 
> For heathen heart that puts her trust
> In reeking tube and iron shard,
> All valiant dust that builds on dust,
> And guarding, calls not Thee to guard,
> For frantic boast and foolish word â â€
> Thy mercy on Thy People, Lord!
> 
> _Rudyard Kipling
> June 22, 1897_


----------



## redleafjumper

Edward, thanks very much.  I was hoping that there would be a copy of this appropriate work posted here today.

All the best for Remembrance Day everyone; a time to remember those who didn't come back, to thank those that did and thus honour them all.


----------



## redleafjumper

What was the brand of rum used to make grog in the RCN?  When was grog last issued?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Demerara called Pusser's Rum. On March 31, 1972, the Royal Canadian Navy held its Black Tot.


----------



## redleafjumper

Good old Pusser's and a black day when it ended...  Correct!


----------



## RiflemanPhil

Wow, nothings been asked for a while, alritey here goes, what was the name of the three ships which transported  the 95th rifles to portugal in may 1809?


----------



## armyvern

RiflemanPhil said:
			
		

> Wow, nothings been asked for a while, alritey here goes, what was the name of the three ships which transported   the 95th rifles to portugal in may 1809?



OK...Here goes...

HMS Crocodile;
HMS Donegal; and
HMS Caesar.

PS...I cheated!!! See page 11 of this thread!!

Vern


----------



## redleafjumper

Oh oh, a question repeated, I thought I had seen that one on here before.  

What is the name of the variation of the Churchill Mark VII tank that towed a trailer and what special weapon did this vehicle use?  What was the weapon that this device replaced that would be on the normal Mk VII?


----------



## armyvern

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Oh oh, a question repeated, I thought I had seen that one on here before.


I only remembered because it took me hours of searching to find the answers the first time it was asked!!


			
				redleafjumper said:
			
		

> What is the name of the variation of the Churchill Mark VII tank that towed a trailer and what special weapon did this vehicle use? What was the weapon that this device replaced that would be on the normal Mk VII?


"One of the more famous variants was the Crocodile, in which a flame projector replaced the machine gun on the right of the glacis to supplement the main gun and coaxial machine gun. It carried 400 gallons of fuel and nitrogen propellant for the flame projector in a towed, armored trailer. The fuel/nitrogen mix was fed into the tank via an articulated coupling at the rear between the tank and trailer. The Crocodile could fire about 80 one-second bursts of flame at a range of 90 to 120 yards."

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=ah/article/ah20050715b


----------



## redleafjumper

Armyvern is correct.  A nice comprehensive answer on the Churchill Crocodile.  One thing that could be more specific, what was the model of hull machinegun on the Churchill Mk VII infantry tank?


----------



## armyvern

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Armyvern is correct.   A nice comprehensive answer on the Churchill Crocodile.   One thing that could be more specific, what was the model of hull machinegun on the Churchill Mk VII infantry tank?



"Ordnance QF 75 mm, abbreviated to OQF 75 mm"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnance_QF_75_mm


----------



## redleafjumper

Armyvern, if I order a machinegun and you send me a quick-firing 75mm cannon, I would be a bit disappointed.  This is the hull MG we are talking about here not the turret mounted main gun.


----------



## Michael OLeary

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Armyvern, if I order a machinegun and you send me a quick-firing 75mm cannon, I would be a bit disappointed.  This is the hull MG we are talking about here not the turret mounted main gun.



I bet if she also provided ammo, you'd play with it for a while first before returning it to exchange,


----------



## armyvern

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Armyvern, if I order a machinegun and you send me a quick-firing 75mm cannon, I would be a bit disappointed.   This is the hull MG we are talking about here not the turret mounted main gun.



Darn...I'm no weapons groupie!!!   ;D

I shall try again!! 

PS...What's a hull?  Part of a ship?


----------



## armyvern

Ok then, I'm trying this:

"*Czech ZB vz/53 (also called the vz/37)* designed by Vaclav Hoiek was chosen. The original intention was to have it redesigned to take the rimmed .303-in (7.7-mm) cartridge, but time was short and it was decided to forgo its infantry application and adopt it for tank use only in its original 7.92-mm (0.312-in) chambering, which then required a supply of 7.92-mm ammunition. This was less of a disadvantage for tank use than it would have been had the weapon seen wider application. Arrangements were made to have the gun manufactured by the BSA company under licence, hence the name BESA. The first production guns were be issued to the army late in 1939."

http://www.ian.a.paterson.btinternet.co.uk/equiparmourtanks.htm#BESA
Am I getting warmer?


----------



## redleafjumper

The Churchill mounted a Besa 7.92mm machine gun, possibly Mk 3 or Mk 3* was mounted in the hull.  Now if the 75mm came with ammo...  hmmm...  (shake head and get back to semblance of reality).  Sigh!    

Oh, a hull?  That's what's left over after you eat the peanut.   ;D


What's the difference between an AN/PRC 25 and an AN/PRC 77?


----------



## larry Strong

*What's the difference between an AN/PRC 25 and an AN/PRC 77?*

The moisture drain on the battery box cover.


----------



## redleafjumper

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> *What's the difference between an AN/PRC 25 and an AN/PRC 77?*
> 
> The moisture drain on the battery box cover.



There is a bit more to it than that.  There is a description of the 77 set at this site:  http://www.associated-ind.com/products/an_prc_77.htm

Also from http://www.fernblatt.net/m12.html#a2265: 

RT-841/PRC-77
Receiver-transmitter, 30-76mHz, 920 chan, 50kHz spacing, FM, 1.5-4w, 13VDC from mil-type BA-4386 battery, replaced the RT-505/PRC-25, but provides secure voice, part of AN/PRC-77, AN/VRC-64, and AN/GRC-160 sets.

RT-505/PRC-25
Receiver-transmitter, 30-76mHz, 920 chan, 50kHz spacing, FM, 1-2w, solid-state except 2DF4 final, 14VDC from mil-type BA-4386 battery, 18lbs


----------



## Ammogod

Hey guys can I play?

Why did the United States lend a Navy aircraft carrier and 10 Airforce B-26s to the french forces?


----------



## redleafjumper

Ammogod said:
			
		

> Hey guys can I play?
> 
> Why did the United States lend a Navy aircraft carrier and 10 Airforce B-26s to the french forces?



Welcome! From: http://www.afa.org/magazine/aug2004/0804dien.asp

The photo is at the web site above.

United States Air Force B-26s loaned to France sit on the ramp at Tourane, Vietnamâ â€later known as Da Nang. They still wear the nose art they carried in Korean action, mere months before. American airpower assistance was the last hope for the French in Indochina. (Photo Bernard Reck via Warren Thompson) 


Less well known, however, is that the Vietnam fuse had been lit back in 1954. The spark was the battle of Dien Bien Phu.

In early 1954, France, a key Western ally, faced a major crisis in what was then called French Indochina. Several thousand French soldiers were trapped in the fortress at Dien Bien Phu, an isolated town in northern Vietnam, near the border with Laos.

In an effort to assist the besieged garrison, French forces had borrowed and were using a US Navy aircraft carrier, 10 US Air Force B-26s, several C-47s and C-119s, and hundreds of US Air Force personnel.

Washington wanted to help. The question was how far President Dwight D. Eisenhower would go to prevent a communist triumph at Dien Bien Phu.

Vietnam and other parts of Indochina had been French colonies since the 19th century. Chased out by occupying Japanese forces in World War II, France had returned after the defeat of Japan and sought to re-establish colonial control.

France's actions provoked open warfare with communist-dominated Viet Minh forcesâ â€led by Gen. Vo Nguyen Giapâ â€which in 1946 launched a broad armed uprising against the French. In October 1949, China's communists won their own civil war and started sending aid southward.


----------



## larry Strong

*There is a bit more to it than that.  * Thats what they taught us in comms course,  didn't bother teaching us the rest of that ;D


----------



## armyvern

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> *There is a bit more to it than that.   * Thats what they taught us in comms course,  didn't bother teaching us the rest of that ;D



I remember working in the MSA as a Cpl and asking what the heck was the difference between the 2 of them when someone TSRd 5 of each. They all looked the same to me!! Some-one told me the difference was was a 'crystal.' ??? Can someone elaborate on this ??? That would have been the answer I gave for this question!!


----------



## redleafjumper

The solid state crystal in the 77 set is the main part of it, the 25 set is not completely solid state.  The two radios do appear to be identical externally - the difference is the Receiver Transmitter units.  For the RT 505 in the 25 set the components are of older technology and thus have reduced range (2 watts output max.) and capabilities.  The RT 841 in the 77 set has the secure voice feature and has enhanced range (4 watts output max.  - twice the 25 set).


----------



## armyvern

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> The solid state crystal in the 77 set is the main part of it, the 25 set is not completely solid state.   The two radios do appear to be identical externally - the difference is the Receiver Transmitter units.   For the RT 505 in the 25 set the components are of older technology and thus have reduced range (2 watts output max.) and capabilities.   The RT 841 in the 77 set has the secure voice feature and has enhanced range (4 watts output max.   - twice the 25 set).



Oh...so are you telling me I might have got partial value if I had said 'the crystal'. I know you would have also added on there's a little bit more to it than that!!


----------



## redleafjumper

Yes, I would have given partial credit for some reference to the crystal.  An answer referring to the different RT units would have been better and anything past that would have been gravy!

Hmm, time for another question...

What was the "Battle of Bogside"?


----------



## armyvern

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> What was the "Battle of Bogside"?



"On 12 August 1969, the disaffected Catholic population of the Bogside district of Derry, Northern Ireland, took to the streets in the wake of a Protestant Apprentice Boys parade in the city. The riots continued for three days and ended when British troops were deployed, a decision that was to shape the future of Northern Ireland for over thirty years." 

http://bogside.iqnaut.net/


----------



## redleafjumper

Yes that is correct.  A reporter named Clive Limpkin wrote a photo book about the whole thing.  That was awfully quick; I' ll have to think of something a bit more challenging.


----------



## armyvern

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Yes that is correct.   A reporter named Clive Limpkin wrote a photo book about the whole thing.   That was awfully quick; I' ll have to think of something a bit more challenging.



Also a documentary out on it:

http://www.britfilms.com/britishfilms/catalogue/browse/?id=3EFE200513d982FA20rWn21D627B


----------



## redleafjumper

How about this one: Which UN sanctioned "peacekeeping missions" has Canada not participated in?


----------



## armyvern

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> How about this one: Which UN sanctioned "peacekeeping missions" has Canada not participated in?



"Peacekeeping" missions we have not participated in:

"UN PEACE SUPPORT MISSIONS IN WHICH CANADA HAS NOT PARTICIPATED
Canada did not participate, or is not participating in the following UN peace support operations:

Consular Commission for Indonesia (CCI) and UN Commission for Indonesia (UNCI) (Aug 47-Apr 51); 
United Nations Commission for the Balkans (UNSCOB) (October 1947-February 1952); 
United Nations Angola Verification Mission I (UNAVEM) (January 1989-May 1991); 
United Nations Angola Verification Mission III (UNAVEM III) (February 1995-June 1997); 
United Nations Observer Mission in Liberia (UNOMIL) (September 1993-September 1997). Brigadier General (Ret'd) Douglas participated in the UN Technical Reconnaissance of Liberia in 1993. Canada did not, however, participate further in UNOMIL; 
United Nations Observer Mission in Georgia (UNOMIG) (April 1993 to the present); 
United Nations Aouzou Strip Observer Mission (UNASOG) (May-June1994); 
United Nations Mission of Observers in Tajikistan (UNMOT) (December 1994 to the present); 
United Nations Transitional Administration of Eastern Slavonia, Baranja and Western Sirmium (UNTAES) (January 1996 to the present); 
United Nations Observer Mission in Angola (MONUA) (July 1997 to the present); and 
United Nations Civilian Police Support Group (UNPSG) in Croatia (January 1998 â â€œ October 1998). 
United Nations Observer Mission in Sierra Leone (UNOMSIL) (July 1998-October 1999). UNOMSIL was terminated when the Security Council authorized the larger, United Nations Mission in Sierra Leone (UNAMSIL). Canada participates in UNAMSIL."

http://www.forces.gc.ca/admpol/eng/defence/peace_pastsupops_e.htm


----------



## redleafjumper

Wow, Armyvern, that's a pretty good list of UN peacekeeping missions that Canada did not participate in.  It did take a bit longer for you to answer than the Bogside question!  One that I believe is missing from your list is the mission to South Africa UNOSMA of 1992.  I thought this would be a good question as on Remembrance Day in my city it was proclaimed to the crowd that Canada had participated in every UN mission, and I was sitting in the audience knowing that not to be so. (sigh)


----------



## armyvern

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Wow, Armyvern, that's a pretty good list of UN peacekeeping missions that Canada did not participate in.   It did take a bit longer for you to answer than the Bogside question!   One that I believe is missing from your list is the mission to South Africa UNOSMA of 1992.   I thought this would be a good question as on Remembrance Day in my city it was proclaimed to the crowd that Canada had participated in every UN mission, and I was sitting in the audience knowing that not to be so. (sigh)


RLJ,

It has always been my understanding that Canada has had uniformed soldiers supporting every UN sanctioned Operation, sometimes not as an actual part of the mission but as support staff to the Op working out of posns at UNHQNY. Thus those few folks you see walking around with the UN Medal with the solid blue ribbon. Perhaps this may be what causes the misconceptions.

http://www.forces.ca/hr/dhh/honours_awards/engraph/honour_awards_e.asp?cat=3&Q_ID=75

Edited to add: I can not seem to find a listing for any UN Sanctioned peacekeeping to South Africa in the 90's nor a mention of UNOSMA on the UN Web-site for either past or present missions?? Perhaps it was a UN Political Mission vice a "Peacekeeping" Mission??

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/dpko/index.asp#


----------



## redleafjumper

armyvern said:
			
		

> RLJ,
> 
> It has always been my understanding that Canada has had uniformed soldiers supporting every UN sanctioned Operation, sometimes not as an actual part of the mission but as support staff to the Op working out of posns at UNHQNY. Thus those few folks you see walking around with the UN Medal with the solid blue ribbon. Perhaps this may be what causes the misconceptions.
> 
> http://www.forces.ca/hr/dhh/honours_awards/engraph/honour_awards_e.asp?cat=3&Q_ID=75



That may well be the case.  Here is some info that includes that South African Observer Mission:

http://www.dfait-maeci.gc.ca/peacekeeping/missions-en.asp

Missions
Peacekeeping Operations over the Years and Canada's Contribution


South Africa	UNOMSA	1992	60	0	UN Observer Mission in South Africa. Observe pre-election period. (Staffed by UN personnel only)




Who was the officer that came up with the pre-war (WW2) plan to wipe out the Italian fleet at its main base?  What was that base and what happened with that plan?

(edited to add the reference to UNOMSA 1992)


----------



## armyvern

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Who was the officer that came up with the pre-war (WW2) plan to wipe out the Italian fleet at its main base?   What was that base and what happened with that plan?



Admiral Cunningham (Commander of the Mediterranean Fleet) proposed OP Judgement:
(technically, he had no other viable options, he knew his fleet could not complete the task on it's own.)

"Though the actual idea of the attack was very simple, just fly into Taranto and torpedo the Italian fleet, the plan behind its execution was complex indeed. Six groups of British warships and four convoys of merchantmen were to have their movements co-ordinated in an operation that stretched from Gibraltar to the coasts of Greece and Turkey. There were five main tasks to be accomplished; the Mediterranean Fleet was to be reinforced by warships from England, a convoy would be pushed through to Malta, other convoys would take supplies to Greece and Crete, empty merchantmen would be brought back to Alexandria and Taranto would be attacked. A total of two aircraft-carriers, five battleships, ten cruisers, thirty destroyers, four armed trawlers and a large number of merchantmen would take part." 

"11 November 1940 - 21 aged British planes destroyed the Italian fleet, including 3 battleships, at their homeport in the harbor of Taranto in Southern Italy by using technically innovative shallow-draft torpedoes." 

http://www.geocities.com/Broadway/Alley/5443/tar2.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Broadway/Alley/5443/tar3b.htm


----------



## redleafjumper

Armyvern, Taranto is the right action as described, but Cunningham is not the originator of the plan, though he did approve it.  Who is that planner of the daring attack on Taranto?


----------



## armyvern

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Armyvern, Taranto is the right action as described, but Cunningham is not the originator of the plan, though he did approve it.   Who is that planner of the daring attack on Taranto?



"The British had drawn up plans to carry out such an operation if war had broken out during the Munich Crisis of 1938. These were reactivated when *the author, Rear Admiral Lumley Lyster*, arrived in September 1940 aboard the new fleet carrier Illustrious to reinforce Cunningham's existing carrier, Eagle."

http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/5802.html


----------



## redleafjumper

Ah ha, now that's better, Captain Arthur Lumley St. George Lyster,( later Rear Admiral) originally wrote the plans in 1935 for this raid that was to prove the power of air force in Naval operations.   The raid took place on the evening of November 10th  1940, and concluded near midnight that night.


----------



## Ammogod

Well done Redleafjumper here is where I found the answer. to the Aircraft carrier and plane's question

http://www.afa.org/magazine/aug2004/0804dien.asp

Next Question

Who was BOADICEA and how many romans did she kill?


----------



## redleafjumper

From: http://travesti.geophys.mcgill.ca/~olivia/BOUDICA/

"Between AD 61 and AD 63 Boadicea led her Iceni people to a glorious but bloody war against the Romans. The Iceni Celts had submitted their kingdom in East Anglia to the conquering Romans and the rule of Emperor Claudius in AD 43. In AD 61, Prasutagus, Boadicea's husband and King of the Iceni died. A dispute followed during which Boadicea, was publicly beaten by the soldiers of the emperor, and her two daughters raped. The Iceni were insulted and rose in revolt led by their queen Boadicea. So successful was the uprising that the Romans were almost defeated. Unfortunately for the Iceni and their allies, the military skill of the Roman army finally led to the crushing of the rebellion.After the revolt, Roman rule was re-established. For almost two glorious years, Boadicea pillaged the Roman settlements; she remains to this day, the greatest of the heroines of Britain."

According to Cary and Scullard in A History of Rome, Boudicca Queen of Iceni was the widow of the King of East Anglia and was the Vercingetorix of the revolt.   She attacked and destroyed the Roman settlement at Camulodunum, engulfed the garrison and drove back a Legion under Q. Petillius Cerialis. She captured Londinium and Veralamium and massacred all the Roman or Romanized inhabitants of those three cities.   She was defeated and was wounded and then killed herself in a battle believed near Lichfield by a well-disciplined Roman army under Suetonius.   As to how many she killed, according to P. Cornelius Tacitus in The Annals - See- http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/t/tacitus/t1a/annals11.html., about 70,000 would have been killed in the revolt and about 400 Romans in the battle in which she was wounded and took poison.

(edited to add the numbers!)


----------



## Kat Stevens

As a footnote, it also suspected that Boudicca was the inspiration for Britania on her Throne, God bless her little cotton socks!


----------



## redleafjumper

Who was the victorious commander in the "Battle of the White Mountain", and what was the significance of this battle?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

The Battle of White Mountain, November 8, 1620  was an early battle in the Thirty Years' War in which an army of 20,000 Bohemians and mercenaries under Christian of Anhalt were routed by 25,000 men of the combined armies of Ferdinand II, Holy Roman Emperor under Karel Bonaventura Buquoy and of the Catholic League under Johan Tzerclaes, Count of Tilly at Czech BÃƒÂ­lÃƒÂ¡ Hora, near Prague. The battle marked the end of the Bohemian period of the Thirty Years' War.


----------



## RiflemanPhil

In the later years of his life, Johann Sebastien Bach met what famous military tactician?


----------



## stukirkpatrick

Frederick the Great?


----------



## RiflemanPhil

You are quite correct (if you are anything of a music history buff or know how to research on the net it was a pretty simple question). Heres a more complicated one -- When Peter the Great was a young boy, where did he play "army"? How did he play this "game"


----------



## Ammogod

he had lived in Germany and had spent time living with soldiers learning about fortifications and ballistics. When back in Russia he formed a small army out of his servants and used them in live ammunition firing war games


http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/peter_the_great.htm


----------



## SHELLDRAKE!!

During the reign of Mackenzie King, who did the term "zombies" apply to and why?


----------



## George Wallace

Conscientious Objectors.


----------



## stukirkpatrick

Reservists who didn't volunteer for overseas service


----------



## pbi

SHELLDRAKE!! said:
			
		

> During the reign of Mackenzie King, who did the term "zombies" apply to and why?



Soldiers called up for duty under the National Resources Mobilization Act (NRMA) who were employed in Canada (sometimes for territorial defence) but who did not volunteer to go overseas.

Cheers


----------



## geo

side with PBI on this quesiton...
if memory serves me right, members serving overseas wore a green or fox (officers) necktie while the zombies wore a black one.
Some zombies did get deployed at the very end of the war.... not very popular with the active service boys.


----------



## stukirkpatrick

As well, zombies apparently did not wear the Canada shoulder flashes that the overseas troops did.


----------



## geo

But McNaughton too, despite his great prestige, was unable to find enough NRMA men willing to volunteer. On November 22, 1944, King was forced to reverse his position and order conscripts overseas.

Some 13,000 NRMA men eventually left Canada, but only 2,463 reached units in the field before the end of the fighting. 69 died in battle.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When you see the term 'Zombies' below, let me explain the true meaning. In Canada we had two classifications of conscripts: those that were destined for overseas service, while the others who signed up as 'Reserve' could not be sent overseas, their role being as Home Defence troops. Naturally they were not looked on with favour by those who signed up to fight the Nazi scourge, and so were baptized with the derogatory title of Zombies. They were scorned by the rest of us.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Zombies also wore a "scrambeled eggs" badge on their Battle dress jackets.
who'se principle colour was a egg yellow.... not very flattering IMHO


----------



## redleafjumper

Recceguy is correct about the Battle of White Mountain. Sorry I didn't respond to confirm a bit sooner; I got a little busy with other things.
Nice to see such an active interest in history.

What is the significance of the "Anse au Foulon" in military history?


----------



## armyvern

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> What is the significance of the "Anse au Foulon" in military history?



"It remains to remark on the significance of these events for Canadian, North American, and indeed world history, alluded to at the opening of this brief account. Obviously the fall of New France had the most profound effect on the nation then known as the Canadians, now known as the Québecois, for whom the Battle of the Plains of Abraham remains a moment of national tragedy. But the result was not the destruction of this nation, as many feared at the time. Owing in part to sheer collective determination and willpower, in part to the relatively enlightened policy adopted by the British in the Quebec Act of 1774 (which confirmed the traditional legal system in Canada as well as the privilege of the Catholic Church), the inhabitants of New France overcame the Conquest and today they flourish. 

In terms of North American history, however, this Quebec Act, together with (more largely) the removal of the threat of New France to the colonies of New England, had a great impact on the rebellion of the Thirteen Colonies in 1776 and the subsequent births of the United States and of English-speaking Canada: no longer concerned with protection against the French and their allies by the British crown, American separatists could seek independence without the fear of invasion. The consequences, therefore, of the Plains of Abraham for world history are obvious: *without it, the peaceful coexistence of two of the world's greatest rivals, the English and the French languages, for two centuries side by side without violence, would never have been possible, and the world would be deprived today of its greatest model of diversity and mutual respect."*
http://www.stanford.edu/~jackm/history.htm


----------



## redleafjumper

Yes Armyvern, that is a good answer as to the significance of "Anse au Foulon" aka Wolfe's Cove and that sunny September day in 1759.

In 1919 a future world leader drafted a statement to give to US President Woodrow Wilson.  That statement read in part:

"...all subject people are filled with hope by the prospect that an era of right and justice is opening to them... in the struggle of civilization against barbarism."

Who was that leader, what country was he from, and what was his original name, as well as the name by which he is commonly known?


----------



## TCBF

Obviously too much ime on my hands, so

What USAF bomber was modified to carry an air cooled nuclear reactor as part of a nuclear powered aircraft research program?

Tom


----------



## baboon6

Leader:
Ho Chi Minh of Vietnam, then known as Nguyen Ai Quoc

Bomber:
B-36


----------



## Weiner

I'm new to answering these types of questions, but a quick search got me an answer of the Convair B-36H bomber and I guess it was then renamed the NB-36H.  You are probably looking for a little more in depth, but this is what I found.

Edit: A link to a possible pic of the plane and I just noticed that baboon6 already answered the question... Whoops.

http://www.airbornegrafix.com/HistoricAircraft/ClassicAC/nb36_title.jpg


----------



## redleafjumper

Baboon Six is correct.  Ho Chi Minh, born Nguyen Sinh Cung in Nghe An province in Central Vietnam, travelled the world, never married and made his country his life's work.


----------



## baboon6

Who was the top-scoring French fighter pilot of World War 2 and what was the name of the book he wrote about his experiences?


----------



## redleafjumper

Pierre H. Closterman, Free French Ace with 33 kills, wrote "The Big Show" an account of his experiences in World War 2.


----------



## redleafjumper

Who was "Mr. Lincoln's General"?


----------



## armyvern

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Who was "Mr. Lincoln's General"?



Mr. Lincoln's General was Ulysses S. Grant, who solidified this status after leading his troops to a stunning Union victory at the Battle of Chattanooga.


----------



## redleafjumper

Army Vern gets yet another!  Despite what promised to be an unremarkable career, U.S. Grant was Lincoln's General.  He graduated in academic obscurity in the bottom third of his class at West Point and displayed some indecisiveness early on his career, but his strategic sense and tactical acumen served him well.  He later became President of the U.S.A.


Who was the commander of the Army of Alsace during the Battle of the Frontiers?


----------



## armyvern

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Who was the commander of the Army of Alsace during the Battle of the Frontiers?



"In command of the operation to take Mulhouse was General Bonneau, and he was assigned a detachment of the First Army, plus one cavalry and two infantry divisions.  Ranged against him was the German Seventh Army under General von Heeringen."

http://www.firstworldwar.com/battles/mulhouse.htm


----------



## redleafjumper

Armyvern close, but not correct on the commander of the Army of Alsace...


----------



## armyvern

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Armyvern close, but not correct on the commander of the Army of Alsace...



Well with getting fired and whatnot....

"Charging Bonneau with a lack of aggression, he was promptly relieved of command.  Recognising the high profile of the loss, Joffre added four more divisions to the so-called 'Army of Alsace' placed under the command of General Pau, which unsuccessfully advanced upon Lorraine later that month."

same ref.


----------



## redleafjumper

That's correct!  General Pau commanded during the Battel of the Frontiers.

Who commanded at Verdun after General Petain was promoted to command the Group of Armies of the Center?


----------



## armyvern

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> That's correct!   General Pau commanded during the Battel of the Frontiers.
> 
> Who commanded at Verdun after General Petain was promoted to command the Group of Armies of the Center?



Robert Nivelle

"Robert Nivelle (1856-1924), who was born in Tulle, France on 15 October 1856, began the war as a regimental colonel.
A chief assistant to Petain at Verdun, his success there in recapturing Douaumont led to him being given command of the Verdun sector in 1916.
In December 1916 he succeeded Joffre as Commander-in-Chief of the French army.  However the signal failure of the April 1917 Aisne campaign (the Nivelle Offensive), followed by mutiny in the French army led to his removal in May 1917 and a subsequent posting to North Africa."

http://www.firstworldwar.com/bio/nivelle.htm


----------



## redleafjumper

Right again, Nivelle is the one.


----------



## armyvern

Who ended the "Christmas Truce" of 1914 for the Royal Welsh Fusiliers and how did he end it?


----------



## stukirkpatrick

"Captain Stockwell of the Royal Welsh Fusiliers recalled how after a truly "Silent Night" he fired three shots into the air at 8.30 on Boxing Day morning and climbed on to the parapet of his trench.


Opposite him the German officer who'd given him beer and cigarettes the day before appeared on his parapet.


They bowed to each other, saluted and climbed back down into their trenches."

All in all it was an amazing event that was never fully repeated because of artillery bombardments ordered on Christmas every year.


----------



## armyvern

Kirkpatrick said:
			
		

> "Captain Stockwell of the Royal Welsh Fusiliers recalled how after a truly "Silent Night" he fired three shots into the air at 8.30 on Boxing Day morning and climbed on to the parapet of his trench.
> Opposite him the German officer who'd given him beer and cigarettes the day before appeared on his parapet.
> They bowed to each other, saluted and climbed back down into their trenches."
> All in all it was an amazing event that was never fully repeated because of artillery bombardments ordered on Christmas every year.


Hmmm, well isn't this controversial now. I've got pretty much the same story...different person:
"Captain J C Dunn, the Medical Officer in the Royal Welch Fusiliers, whose unit had fraternised and received two barrels of beer from the Saxon troops opposite, recorded how hostilities re-started on his section of the front.
Dunn wrote: 'At 8.30 I fired three shots in the air and put up a flag with "Merry Christmas" on it, and I climbed on the parapet.  He [the Germans] put up a sheet with "Thank you" on it, and the German Captain appeared on the parapet.  We both bowed and saluted and got down into our respective trenches, and he fired two shots in the air, and the War was on again.' "

http://www.firstworldwar.com/features/christmastruce.htm

Either way, it must have been a truely amazing day and quite the sight to see.


----------



## geo

Stern orders were issued by the commander of the BEF, Sir John French against such behaviour.  Other 'brass-hats' (as the Tommies nick-named their high-ranking officers and generals), also made grave pronouncements on the dangers and consequences of parleying with the Germans.

However, there were many high-ranking officers who took a surprisingly relaxed view of the situation.  If anything, they believed it would at least offer their men an opportunity to strengthen their trenches.  This mixed stance meant that very few officers and men involved in the Christmas Truce were disciplined.

Interestingly, the German High Command's ambivalent attitude towards the Truce mirrored that of the British.

In the public's mind the facts have become irrevocably mythologized, and perhaps this is the most important legacy of the Christmas Truce today.  In our age of uncertainty, it comforting to believe, regardless of the real reasoning and motives, that soldiers and officers told to hate, loathe and kill, could still lower their guns and extend the hand of goodwill, peace, love and Christmas cheer


----------



## geo

Would venture to say that over the years, Capt Stockwell & Dunn, who prolly knew each other (same unit) likely told & retold the story umpteen hundred times to friend & family. At some point in time, those that heard it would say that personal title to the act was claimed by each... 
Too bad neither is around to settle the claim.


----------



## redleafjumper

This thread has been terribly quiet for a while, here's a simple question:

What is a cabasset?



(edited to correct punctuation error)


----------



## armyvern

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> This thread has been terribly quiet for a while, here's a simple question?


Sorry RLJ...On course this week!!  ;D


			
				redleafjumper said:
			
		

> What is a cabasset?



"The cabasset is an open-faced helmet characterized by its almond shaped top (often called pear shaped) and the curious little point projecting from the apex of the helmet...and was most popular among infantry soldiers and pikemen during the 16th and 17th centuries in Europe."

http://members.aol.com/dargolyt/TheForge/cabasset.htm


----------



## vangemeren

A source of daily information for me, Wikipedia, is featuring Canadian military history today. I was wondering if anybody here edits wikipedia?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page


----------



## redleafjumper

Welcome back Armyvern, yes you are correct on your answer regarding the Cabasset.  In reply to van Gemeren, I don't edit Wikipedia, though it certainly seems to be a worthy cause.

What are surcoats and what were the most likely materials used for making original ones?


----------



## larry Strong

A sleeveless vest and usually made of leather and fur.


----------



## redleafjumper

That's a good start on the surcoat Larry and certainly not wrong, can you give me a bit more information before we declare this one done?


----------



## larry Strong

The Surcoat 

The Surcoat was essentially the medieval European Knight's military robe, used to cover his armor.  The surcoat was of little real protective use but was still a very essential part of the war equipment for knights during the 13th and 14th centuries.  Surcoats first appeared across Europe during the crusades and were thought to have been designed to keep the hot sun off the knight's armor.  Since surcoats remained popular in the colder climates of Europe following the crusades, many historians maintain the original purpose of the surcoat was to protect the intricate chain mail from water and dampness (rust would devastate a suit of chain mail armor). 

   The surcoat was made of varying lengths from a number of different materials:  cloth, quilted cloth, wool, and even leather.  The surcoat was slit to the waist in the front and back for convenience while on horseback and usually bound at the waist with a belt or cord.  Surcoats were almost always decorated with the heraldic war symbols of the wearer.  When a knight wore a great helm (heaume), these markings on the surcoat were often the only way for those around the knight to recognize him as friend or foe.  A number of geneologists believe the surcoat to be the first instance of heraldry, which led to the development of coats of arms and surnames, in Europe.


----------



## redleafjumper

Thanks Larry, that's a great answer to the surcoat question.

What model of Sherman tank did the US supply to the USSR during the Great Patriotic War and what fueled it?


----------



## baboon6

I believe it was the M4A2 which was diesel-powered. This would make sense because most Russian tanks had diesel engines. As far as I know no M4A2s were used by the US Army but they were supplied to the British/Commonwealth forces. Other Shermans used radial aircraft-type engines or a bank of five truck engines.


----------



## redleafjumper

Baboon 6, you are correct it was the diesel engine M4A2 that was issued to the Russians and some other allied formations.  The USMC also used them but as far as I know the US Army did not.

What Canadian regiment's motto is the latin version of "Truer than steel".


----------



## xFusilier

Regiment de Chaudiere


----------



## George Wallace

Who designated "Red and White" to be the official Canadian national colours, and what else was significant on that date?


----------



## redleafjumper

King George V proclaimed red and white as Canadian colours on November 21, 1921 with the proclamation of the Canadian Coat of Arms.     

On the same day in history, the Anglo-Afghan treaty was signed, extending the Treaty of Rawalpindi, which had the effect of further reducing British influence in Afghanistan. 


Who was Hamilcar Barca and what was his nickname?


----------



## redleafjumper

xFusilier is correct with his answer on the motto - The Regiment de la Chaudiere.


----------



## George Wallace

You guys are just too good....On 21 Nov 1921, King George V proclaimed Canada's coat of arms and designated red and white to be the official Canadian national colours.


----------



## George Wallace

I found this in another thread and thought it was hilarious:


> Uniforms of the Russian and the French Armies of the Napoleonic Wars, by the way these are more like paintings then actual pictures.


So...When was the first camera invented?


----------



## geo

1st camrea...
Are you including "daguerotype" (sp)
immage on copper plate that came out of France?


----------



## AmmoTech90

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Who was Hamilcar Barca and what was his nickname?



He was Hannibal's father and commander of Carthage's army in the First Punic War.  Died in around 228 BC.
Nicknamed Barak/Barcas or lightning.


----------



## redleafjumper

Hey Ammotech, you got it!  They even named a glider after him in WW2, the Hamilcar.
I'll have tolook into this camera question but in the meantime...


What was operation Margaretha?


----------



## AmmoTech90

Thanks to DBA in my youth  ;D

No real idea on Operation Margaretha, but can anyone identify the man standing behind Churchill in this picture?


----------



## redleafjumper

Looks to me like Harry Truman.


----------



## redleafjumper

So Operation Margaretha, any takers?  It really shouldn't be too difficult to get this one...


----------



## larry Strong

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> So Operation Margaretha, *any takers*?   It really shouldn't be too difficult to get this one...



I'm back, been out of the loop for a few days. I guess it's a good thing to have a nice library upstairs ;D as the operation name won't "google"

"Operation Margaretha"

The German invasion of Hungary on 27.03.44, to bring them back into the fold, so to speak. 

http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/montgo/montgo15.htm


Along with some so-so armour at the end, they were the only "Axis" formations left with the Wehrmacht on 08.06.45. The exhausted 1st Hungarian Army retreated into Moravia in Checkoslavakia were it built fortifications till the end of the war. After the German failure of the Lake Balaton offensive the 3rd Hungarian Army retreated westward, it lost it's 1st Hussar Div near Budapest, it's 2nd Armd, 27th Light, 9th and 23rd Reserve, and the 7th and 8th Depot Div's surrendered to the Americans in northern Austria, while the remainder which included the elite"Szent Laszlo" Parachute Div fought on the Austro-Yugoslav border before surrendering to British troops   08.45.

Who was "Szent Laszlo"?


----------



## redleafjumper

Larry, you are correct about Operation Margaretha.

Saint Laszlo was a Hungarian king and warrior highly respected for his leadership and courage.  He was touted to lead the third crusade but he died in 1195.  He was canonoized in 1169.  Hungarian soldiers to the end of World War 2 would cry out "Szent Laszlo protect and lead us" or something like that.

(edited to fix typo)


----------



## redleafjumper

What is the only thing that we eat that has never been alive?  (As a hint, it has been used to pay soldier's wages)

As this one is really easy, I ask that the person answering it provides a new question.


----------



## clasper

Salt (although MRE's are a close second...)

What was the name of soldier who lost siblings on D-day and inspired the story for Saving Private Ryan?


----------



## redleafjumper

Taken from: http://www.historyinfilm.com/ryan/

"Saving Private Ryan is a blockbuster depiction of the realities of war.   Winner of five Academy Awards including Steven Spielberg's Best Director, it is an unforgettable experience.   The film follows Captain John Miller (Tom Hanks) who, in the brutally real opening sequence, survives the landing at Omaha Beach.   He is then given a new mission: to find and extract Private James Francis Ryan (Matt Damon), one of four brothers, the other three of whom have been killed in action within days of each other.
The plot was inspired in part by the true story of Fritz Niland, one of four brothers from New York state who saw action during the war.   Two Niland brothers were killed on D-Day, while another was missing in action in Burma and was presumed dead, although he actually survived.   Fritz was located in Normandy by an Army chaplain, Reverend Francis Sampson, and taken out of the combat zone."

What was the device known affectionately as the "potato digger"?

(edited to add question)


----------



## George Wallace

Are you trying to distract us with the SPR story?

The only "Potato Digger" I know of is the Colt Machine Gun used in South Africa during the Boer War.


----------



## redleafjumper

Hi George, no attempt to distract, I just usually try to provide a question when I have the answer to one.

The Colt-Browning Machine gun of 1895 was commonly called the "potato digger" because of the swinging arm beneath the muzzle.


----------



## RiflemanPhil

A synonym for "wages" was first created by the Roman Empire. What was the Roman word, and what was behind this?


----------



## redleafjumper

This is directly related to my earlier question.  The word is salarium, later salary.  It referred to the salt that was in early time the pay for the legionary.  The salt could be used, sold or traded but it was a useful commodity that was valuable in that culture.

What were the "hetairai"?


----------



## Danjanou

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> What were the "hetairai"?



redleaf this is a family site. :-[

Basically highclass ladies of the ahem evening in Ancient Greece. More a courtesan or perhaps even akin to geisha than a common streetwalker.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/greece/hetairai/hetairai.html


----------



## RiflemanPhil

Who was the member of the british admiralty who developed the British navy (especially in the dreadnought class), at the turn of the 20th century? What famous three cruisers were he responsible for? (they all start with I). Which ones were sunk?


----------



## Danjanou

RiflemanPhil said:
			
		

> Who was the member of the british admiralty who developed the British navy (especially in the dreadnought class), at the turn of the 20th century? What famous three cruisers were he responsible for? (they all start with I). Which ones were sunk?



Admiral John Arbuthnot Fisher (1841-1920) 

http://www.firstworldwar.com/bio/fisher.htm

The Battle Cruisers were HMS Invincible, HMS Inflexible, and HMS Irresistible. Both HMS Invincible, HMS Inflexible were part of the force that destroyed a German squadron off of the Falklands. Both HMS Inflexible, and HMS Irresistible were sunk during the Dardanelles action.

HMS Invincible, HMS Inflexible off of the Falklands

http://www.firstworldwar.com/photos/graphics/gw_inflexibleinvinc_01.jpg

HMS Irresistible sinking off of the Dardanelles

http://www.firstworldwar.com/photos/graphics/gw_irresistible_01.jpg


----------



## 3rd Herd

My two cents:The admiral responsible for the build/reorganization of the British Navy was Sir John Fisher, First Sea Lord 1904-1910. I think the three   battle crusiers you are looking for are   of the Invincible class built in 1905-1906. Their names are the Invincible, Inflexible, and Indomitable. The Invincible was sunk on May 31st, 1916 and the other two were sold in 1922. Sources:Tin Pots and Pirate Ships by M. Hadleyand R. Sarty. Names of the ships is from: 1905-1914 - The Dreadnought Race http://www.worldwar1.com/tldread.htm. What happened to the ships:Invincible Class http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/invincible_class.htm.
Next question:
What province owned a submarine and who was the Premier responsible?


----------



## Danjanou

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> What province owned a submarine and who was the Premier responsible?



3rd herd you may be right on the third ship of the class, too many flipping ships whose names began with I in the RN.

The province was British Colombia which acquired 2 old subs at the beginning of the First World War for defence. Not sure of the Premier, though Google shows there were two during the war, Thomas William Paterson from 1909- Dec 1914 would be my guess. Sir Frank Stillmann Barnard took over in Dec 1914 and remained Premier until 1919.


----------



## 3rd Herd

Premier responsible was Sir Richard McBride, Subs were orginally intended for Chile and ended up in Esquimalt. Comissioned  in the RCN as CC1 and CC2. The feds reimbursed the provinical treasury.Source Tin Pots and Pirate Ships.


----------



## redleafjumper

redleaf this is a family site. 


Basically highclass ladies of the ahem evening in Ancient Greece. More a courtesan or perhaps even akin to geisha than a common streetwalker.



Danjanou, the answer you have given, although it is the common meaning of "Hetairai", is not the definition sought in terms of military history.  I assure you that it is term or name of a legitimate group with strong military ties (and it was appropriately chosen!)
My conscience is still clear!  Perhaps another attempt might be more successfull, thought the answer may not be one that is so easy to google.


----------



## old medic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_army

"Foreign troops during the late Empire were known as the Foederati ("Allies") and continued to be known as such until about the ninth century (although the title had by then been Hellenized to Phoideratoi (Gr. ÎÂ¦ÎÂ¿ÎÂ¹Î'ÎÂµÏÂÎÂ¬Ïâ€žÎÂ¿ÎÂ¹). From this point, foreign troops - mainly mercenaries - were known as the Hetaireiai (Gr. Îâ€¢Ïâ€žÎÂ±ÎÂ¹ÏÂÎÂµÎÂ¯ÎÂ±ÎÂ¹, "Companions") and most frequently employed in the Imperial Guard. This force was in turn divided into the Great Companions (ÎÅ“ÎÂµÎÂ³ÎÂ¬ÎÂ»ÎÂ· Îâ€¢Ïâ€žÎÂ±ÎÂ¹ÏÂÎÂµÎÂ¯ÎÂ±), the Middle Companions (ÎÅ“ÎÂ­ÏÆ’ÎÂ· Îâ€¢Ïâ€žÎÂ±ÎÂ¹ÏÂÎÂµÎÂ¯ÎÂ±), and the Minor Companions (ÎÅ“ÎÂ¹ÎÂºÏÂÎÂ¬ Îâ€¢Ïâ€žÎÂ±ÎÂ¹ÏÂÎÂµÎÂ¯ÎÂ±), commanded by their respective Hetaireiarches."


http://www.arch.mcgill.ca/prof/sijpkes/arch528/fall2001/lecture5/greek-terms.htm

hetaireiai

private social clubs of hetairoi. While these were drinking and dining associations, they frequently had political connotations. In Athens, they were associated with the multilation of the herms and the profaning of the Mysteries in 415 B.C.E. and the oligarchic coups of 411 and 404.


----------



## redleafjumper

Old Medic, that's almost the complete answer that I was seeking.  You can see the relationship of the common meaning of Hetairai to the use of mercenaries.  There is one other meaning and as may appear somewhat obscure, here it is:

In 1814, Greeks, conscious of their classical heritage formed secret societies called Hetairai at Athens under Count Kapodistrias and Odessa under Prince Ypsilanti with the aim of "liberating the nation from the infidel".  The group was supported by the Greek Orthodox church and Greek merchants in Constantinople.  The Hetairai organized popular uprisings on mainland Greece and on the Aegean islands.  These events led to the war of liberation and eventually Greek independence.


----------



## 3rd Herd

Napoleon, Clausewitiz and others in the ealy to mid 18th century were concerned primarly with one level of warfare. What level of warfare contributed to Napolen's defeat?


----------



## redleafjumper

Economic


----------



## 3rd Herd

Sorry redleaf, hint, what were the British doing with their army which no other continental army was concerned about.


----------



## Danjanou

> hint, what were the British doing with their army which no other continental army was concerned about. [/qoute]
> 
> Giving them a daily booze ration? Seriously supplying and feeding them as opposed to letting them forage and live off the land. Amatuers study tactics, pros logistics.


----------



## 3rd Herd

Napoleon,Clauswitiz and the other grand masters were more concerned about the "grand strategy" of moving armies. The British on the other hand started working on small unit tactics, ie. riflemen skimishers, squad-platoon-company drills. The example of the French column method of attack is a prime exaple. It makes it easy to control untrained troops.
Source: The Art of War, Waterloo to Mons, McElwee William


----------



## Edward Campbell

I would add that:

1.	The British pursued (since the 16th century) a radically different _maritime_ strategy which Bonaparte could not comprehend.  The British won the Napoleonic Wars at Trafalgar, weeks before Bonaparte's most stunning tactical victory at Austerlitz.  The next decade was just summing up because the French _continental system_ was dead as a doornail and, with it, Bonaparte's imperial ambitions were dust.

2.	Ever since Elizabeth I, parsimony, as much as strategic _need_, drove British defence policy.  Remember that Wellington was sent off to the Peninsula with one admonition ringing in his ears: "There is only one British Army, sir, and you have it!"  The message was clear and simple: the British were willing to engage Bonaparte on land - to further their maritime strategy (it's the Iberian peninsula, remember) - but only to very specific limits.  If Wellington couldn't do the job with the limited resources available then the job would have to go undone.

3.	Wellington introduced two huge _reforms_ to the battlefield: integral logistics and discipline.  (Bonaparte, on the other hand, left nothing much new or original - Fredrick the Great would have been very comfortable at Waterloo; despite years and years of opportunity Napoleon had made few changes to Fredrick's basic drills and tactics.)  Both of Wellington's _reforms_ fundamentally altered the way we fight - and they remain with us today.


----------



## Danjanou

Oh course one could argue the French and to a lesser extent other European powers were forced to use such obsolete and  ineffective tactics as the "Grande Column" due to the lower lever of training their conscript mass armies received.

The British had a volunteer ( if perhaps reluctantly so) army which to an extent could account for some of their innovations in training especially in terms of Lt Infantry/Rifles. That and the Brits always seem to develop/produce some unorthodox leaders from Gage to Moore to Orde Wingate

Of the four main European land powers in the 18th-19th century Britain, France, Austria and Prussia ( yeah I know I'm leaving Russian out but they were really behind in development) only the first three really developed the light infantry concept and most likely due to their "colonial" experiences. The British and French here in North America mostly in the French and Indian War and the Austrians use of Grenzer irregular light infantry to hold their lengthy frontier with the Ottoman Empire in the Balkans.


----------



## Spr.Earl

Jumping to the 20th century.
What job in WW II required you to be illiterate?


----------



## geo

Recruit?  
(don't read the fine print, we'd never lie to you)


----------



## MacKenzie1NSH

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> Jumping to the 20th century.
> What job in WW II required you to be illiterate?



Comms/Intel?


----------



## Edward Campbell

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> Jumping to the 20th century.
> What job in WW II required you to be illiterate?



I don't know; but nearly  ½ century back we used a thing called the "M Test" (which was, I think short for Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory) to sort people into occupations.

If, big *IF* what I remember is true the requirements went something like this:

120 = some signals technicians, all Intelligence Corps
110 = Most officers
100 = Most trades including e.g. combat engineers, infantrymen, cooks and clerks, too

.
.
.
.
.
90 = there were only two trades which were open to those with only a 90 (and none at all for those scoring less than 90).  Can anyone guess what they were?


----------



## geo

Hmmm.... Boilermen/Stokers and mess stewards on RCN/RN ships


----------



## MacKenzie1NSH

geo said:
			
		

> Hmmm.... Boilermen/Stokers and mess stewards on RCN/RN ships



I would have to agree with Geo


----------



## Edward Campbell

I don't know if the Navy used M Scores too, I'm _thinkiing (sort of) about Army trades.
_


----------



## MacKenzie1NSH

lineman maybe?


----------



## Long in the tooth

hmm, stewards and field engineers?


----------



## geo

Polish mine detectors? (JK)


----------



## Art Johnson

I used to administer M tests, total score has nothing to do with it. We had Candidates that scored very high over all but could not read English. It was a tool to determine the Candidates suitability for a trade. Each section of the test was scored individually and as was stated there was an over all score that had to be obtained.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Art Johnson said:
			
		

> It was a tool to determine the Candidates suitability for a trade.



The two trades (if the legends are correct*) which required only a 90 were:

Piper - which was a separate trade, like bandsman; and

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
MP

----------
* Even if the legends aren't correct, I still like the story


----------



## armyvern

Edward Campbell said:
			
		

> MP
> 
> ----------
> * Even if the legends aren't correct, I still like the story


Guess them and their Spec pay are getting the last laugh!


----------



## Danjanou

I had to stay out of this one. Edward told George and I the story over dinner when I was in Ottawa to visit the CWM. I have to admit it stumped me at the time.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Okay, new question.

How many Canadian Prime Ministers have held honourary rank in the Canadian military?  I can think of only one.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Trudeau was Colonel in Chief of the Gatineau Highlanders, wasn't he?  8)  forgive the obscure ref, PM if need be...


----------



## xFusilier

I know you asked for a number but I'd guess Viscount Bennett was one of them.


----------



## Spr.Earl

I've had a very good laff but you are all out beyond the range. ;D
It was the janitorial service working for the Manhattan Project.
Reason being is paper's laying about while the janitor's cleaning up could not be read and resulting in a security liability


----------



## MacKenzie1NSH

What was the fairly large group of people after world war two who fought for the same benifits and privlages as the vetrans received? 
(I need to find out for a Global History paper) :-\


----------



## George Wallace

Have you not heard of the Merchant Marine?


----------



## MacKenzie1NSH

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Have you not heard of the Merchant Marine?



Ok thats who I thought it was, but someone was saying the Red Cross :argument:


----------



## Art Johnson

I believe that George is right but have a look at this anyway.

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/clients/sub.cfm?source=new/billc41


----------



## geo

Took a long time for the Merchant Marine to be entitled to the same benefits as the Servicemen they carried over....
Then again, these guys were paid the big bucks and had somewhat better conditions than on the warships.


----------



## redleafjumper

I am sorry that politics and work have kept me from history for a few days.  Who said the following and when did he or she say it?

"We can truly say that the whole circuit of the earth is girdled with the graves of our dead... and, in the course of my pilgrimage, I have many times asked myself whether there can be more potent advocates of peace upon earth through the years to come, than this massed multitude of silent witnesses to the desolation of war."


----------



## Edward Campbell

Early birds, worms, etc   ... King George V, dedicating the military cemeteries in Flanders.

The quote is used, often, by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission.


----------



## redleafjumper

That's correct Edward, he first said it in Flanders in 1922.

Who organized and what was the "Gleiwitz Incident"?


----------



## stukirkpatrick

An SS leader named Alfred Naujocks planned an attack on a German radio station, making it appear to be Polish insurgents... which with other incidents was used as justification by the Germans to start the second world war.  They even went so far as to leave a lethal-injected polish sympathizer at the scene as "proof" of the attack.


----------



## redleafjumper

Kirkpatrick is pretty close.  The Gleiwitz (now Gliwice) incident was organized by Reinhard Heydrich.  On August 31, 1939 a German radio station at Gleiwitz in Silesia was attacked by a dozen men in Polish uniform, none of whom survived the attack. The dead were actually German concentration camp prisoners acting under duress from the SS.  The incident used as justification for the attack on Poland the next day.


----------



## stukirkpatrick

aha...  there were a bunch of incidents that occurred that were similar, I just picked the wrong one  :blotto:


----------



## larry Strong

Kirkpatrick said:
			
		

> aha...   there were a bunch of incidents that occurred that were similar, I just picked the wrong one   :blotto:



What were  the other's?


----------



## redleafjumper

The incidents referred to are, it appears to me, the same.  I believe that Kirkpatrick is referring to the SS commander responsible for carrying out Heydrich's order.


----------



## JackD

By the way - that radio mast still exists.. surprisingly it survived the war and all this time - considering it is made of wood..


----------



## Spr.Earl

geo said:
			
		

> Took a long time for the Merchant Marine to be entitled to the same benefits as the Servicemen they carried over....
> Then again, these guys were paid the big bucks and had somewhat better conditions than on the warships.


Geo I wish my Grand Father and Uncles were alive today to argue with you over your above point.
The U.S. Merchant Navy was paid very well but not the Canadian or the British Merchant Navy.

My Grand Father was a Chief Engineer on the Atlantic and Murmansk convoy's,my uncle Bill Ball was torpedoed 3 times and ended up on the Qn Mary as fireman for the rest of the War.
When a Merchant Seamans ship was sunk his pay STOPPED,not so with the Navy ergo the Merch. Seaman's family was left high and dry!

Here's a neat story for you.
My auntie Margret and Uncle Bill came over one day to visit,after about 15 mins. auntie Marg goes "Were's Bill?"He was next door,as they walked up the walk our mext door neighbour Tommy Thompson was sitting out side getting some rare english sun,well they recognised each other and it turned out out both sailed on two ship's together on the N.Atlantic,this was in about 1960,61.

I know all about what our Merchant Seaman were given after the War,the got prick nada! 
Per capita for all arms the Merchant Navy lost the most men.
I'm the last of my family at sea now even though it's the Ferries butI spent 5 years deep sea on Norwegian,Danish,English and Canadain ship's and I still say a prayer for all the men at sea wheather they be Gray Funnel or Merch. because not of these men we would not have the toy's we enjoy.


----------



## enfield

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> Per capita for all arms the Merchant Navy lost the most men.



Really? I expected that unhappy title to belong to the Infantry, or Bomber crews. (or the poor bastards in the U-Boats....)

I agree that the MN got a raw deal after the war.


----------



## wongskc

> I expected that unhappy title to belong to the Infantry, or Bomber crews



Bomber command suffered the second highest rate of casualties.  The Merchant Marine recieved something like 1 in 10 killed.


----------



## larry Strong

Those must be Allied stats, as the U-boatwaffe lost 3 out of every 4.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

xFusilier said:
			
		

> I know you asked for a number but I'd guess Viscount Bennett was one of them.



That's the only one I have been able to come up with - correct.


----------



## geo

Spe Earl
while I do not contest that the MN did get the raw end of the stick after the war, comparatively, a large part of the argument offered for not including them in prior pension settlements had to do with the fact that the MN were paid more than the uniformed soldiers and, supposedly, their living conditions were allegedly better... but how a Murmansk run could be tremed "better" is beyond me.

I take my hat off to them and say

CHIMO!


----------



## larry Strong

Who was the last Non Commissioned soldier (NCO/NCM) to receive the Knight's Cross in Berlin in WW2. What day was he awarded it? What was different about him? And what did he accomplish to receive it?

edited to clarify the question.


----------



## redleafjumper

This is one of the last awards of the Iron Cross in WW2.  It isn't the Knight's Cross but it is notable none the less:

From:  www.wehrmacht-awards.com/iron_cross

Alfred Zeck

In the last desperate days of the Third Reich, there were many decorations and promotions. The youngest recipient of the Iron Cross, Alfred was just twelve when he assisted wounded soldiers in his home town of Goldenau in March, 1945. The soldiers, who were pinned down by enemy fire, received first aid which Alfred had learned to administer in the Hitler Youth. For his actions Hitler personally decorated him later the same month. It was the Fuhrer's last public appearance.


----------



## larry Strong

That's the HJ kid you see in the photo, when they are all out in thegarden. The answer I am looking for took place not far from there! Actually there were 2 presentations that took place about the same time, and not that far from each other, but the other one was an Officer


----------



## redleafjumper

I will keep looking for the answer to this one...


----------



## NavComm

Is the answer Karl Jäckel, August 5, 1945? I don't know what he received it for, but if I'm on the right track, I'll keep searching.

_Karl Jäckel joined the Navy in April 1937 at the age of 23. Since April 1940 he rode on U-29 under the command of Kptlt. Schuhart. When the first watch officer Georg Lassen left the U-29 and commissioned U-160 he requested that Karl Jäckel would follow him which he did. He was then for 4 patrols on board and luckily left the U-boat along with Georg Lassen, before U-160 was sunk a month later. Georg Lassen called him his "number one man".

In 1944 he became the Obersteuermann on the type VIIC U-boat U-907. After the surrender Karl Jäckel was one of the crew members that had to bring the U-boat to Loch Ryan, Scotland for Operation Deadlight_ from http://www.uboat.net/men/jaeckel.htm


----------



## larry Strong

No this one was awarded in Berlin pre-08.06.45, And i have seen a person listed for the RK as late as 09.45, though their is some doubts on some of the post war awards.


----------



## RiflemanPhil

Well this is post number 1000 of this topic! Pretty impressive I must say. So heres the question: In the days of Imperial Rome, What were the unit divisions (ie legions, centuries, maniples,  etc)- from the very smallest to the grandest? Name the different types of Roman military units (equites, triarii,etc)


----------



## redleafjumper

That's a good question Rifleman Phil, but perhaps it would be better manners to answer the question on the floor first before posting a new one.  Larry's put out a very challenging question.  I, for one, have been looking through old books and trying to get information from knowledgeable people to find an answer.

If we just throw question after question on here without dealing with the one on the floor, then this thread would get messy very quickly.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Yup, that's been kinda the running rule. Ask, get an answer, maybe some discussion, then ask another.


----------



## NavComm

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> Who was the last Non Commissioned soldier (NCO/NCM) to receive the Knight's Cross in Berlin in WW2. What day was he awarded it? What was different about him? And what did he accomplish to receive it?
> 
> edited to clarify the question.



So, we're still working on this one?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

They don't normally take this long. If we're stumped, the poser of the question should tell us the answer so we can move on. 

Mr Strong?


----------



## armyvern

NavComm said:
			
		

> So, we're still working on this one?


Yep we are navComm....

I'm tediously searching through this database: :-[

http://www.feldgrau.com/search.php?ID=1


----------



## NavComm

Well, how about this guy:

Heinz Prassdorf
Obermaschinist (Navy since 1937) 

Born 7 December, 1918 Rostock 


Heinz Prassdorf Decorations
                   : Iron Cross 2nd class (EK II) 
                   : Ubootskriegsabzeichen 
                   : Iron Cross 1st class (EK I)
21/04/1945 : Knights Cross (-142-)


from: http://uboat.net/men/decorations/ritter_winners.htm

modified to add: do you get the sense I'm hoping it's a sailor?  

also to add yet another guess: Christian Lohrey, awarded the RK on March 11th, 1945, he was the youngest I can find, but no details on any of these people. I'm going to have to hit the real library on this one!


----------



## larry Strong

Ok I was going to post a couple of hints today, but in the intrest of keeping it going here you are.

The man in question is a _Frenchman_ by the name of _Unterscharfuhrer Eugene Vanlot/Vaulot_ a 20 yr plumbers mate,  I have seen both versions of the spelling. It was awarded on the _29.04.45_ in recognition for single handed with a "Panzerfaust" of _...Destroying 2 T-34's in Neukolln and then destroyed another 6 in less than 24 hrs....._, it was awarded to him by his CO Brigadefuhrer Krukenberg, incedently at almost the same time the last RK to an Officer in Berlin was being awarded by Bdefhr Monke to a Major Herzig the Commander of 503rd SS Heavy Panzer Bn.

Eugene Vanlot was part of the escape attempt at the end. ".....And they managed to cross the Spree shortly before dawn. But they came under heavy fire just a few hundred metres short of the Gesundbrunnen U-Bahn station. Ziegler was hit by a ricochet and mortally wounded. Several others in their group also fell, among them Eugene Vanlot, the young French recipient of the Knight's Cross. He died in a nearby cellar three days later...."

 Sources

The Fall of Berlin By Anthony Beevor Pg352
The Fall of Berlin Anthony bRead and David Fisher Pg447
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Orden/Ritterkreuz/RKV-R.htm


----------



## redleafjumper

Good question, it sure had me stumped.  Now shall we look at those Romans that Rifleman Phil was asking about?


----------



## stukirkpatrick

Its a pretty large topic but I can start off an answer -  pre-marian reform legions were composed of velites (skirmishers with javelins), equites (cavalry), and a three-lined infantry system of Hastati (front line, youngest soldiers), Principes (second-line, regular troops) and Triarii, the third-line veterans.  The Triarii carried spears while the hastati and principes used the classic legionary pilums and gladius swords.


----------



## Spr.Earl

Who has the smallest Army in the world?

P.S. We don't count.  ;D


----------



## 3rd Herd

A quick guess would be the Vatican assuming we are not talking about "soldiers of god"


----------



## Spr.Earl

Congrats you win.
Yup the Swiss Guard is the smallest Army in the World.


----------



## Cloud Cover

In 1944, this 39 year old US army lieutenant was a hero for his actions on Saipan, but about a decade earlier he was a hero to a great many more. Who was he, and why was he a hero in the mid 1930's? 

Cheers


----------



## 3rd Herd

Whiskey,
I believe you are looking for the American Negro heavy weight  boxer from the 1936 Berlin Olympics, he won and inspired millions. Imagine the masterful Aryan race being defeated. I think this was Joe Lewis and If I am correct he also arranged for another American great to receive a commission baseball great Jackie R Robinson.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Jesse Owen............?
Same reason, kicked Aryan butt at Berlin


----------



## Cloud Cover

You guys are damn close.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Jim Braddock, Heavyweight champ, lost it to Joe Lewis, joined the army as a 2 Lt


----------



## Cloud Cover

damned straight Kat.

ooops- edit: it's Joe Louis.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Easy one.... What is/are/were  a/the/some  "ogive"?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

The pointed or curved (conical) surface used to give the shape to the nose of bullets, arty rounds, rockets, missles, etc?


----------



## Kat Stevens

good answer..... the point where the cylindrical body of a projectile begins to taper to the nose.


----------



## redleafjumper

What are the two (if not more) clerical artillery pieces of the allied armies in WW2?


----------



## stukirkpatrick

The Bishop and Priest Self-Propelled Guns?


----------



## redleafjumper

I would also add the sexton!  Good answer.

What were the distinguishing features of the uniforms of French cavalry trumpeters of the Napoleonic period?


----------



## larry Strong

They wore reverse color's. I.e. if the squadron was blue withorange trim, their tunics would be orange with blue trim.


----------



## redleafjumper

Larry, that is crack on correct, the reversed facing colours distinguished French Cavalry trumpeters.  The other feature of note would be that the trumpeters usually had first pick of gray or white horses.


On what date did Erwin Rommel learn of his promotion to Field Marshal at the tender age of forty-nine?


----------



## 3rd Herd

Rommel's promotion date June 21 , 1942


----------



## larry Strong

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Larry, that is crack on correct, the reversed facing colours distinguished French Cavalry trumpeters.  The other feature of note would be that the trumpeters usually had first pick of gray or white horses.



You stumped me there for a few minutes, as I forgot the trumpeters usually got grey horses. Also Napoleon decreed on 23 May 1810, described in the Journal Militarie of 30 Dec 1811 and detailed in the 1812 regulations that ALL trumpeters and drummers etc wear a Green tunic and had the facings and piping of the regimental color, and a specially developed lace. This lace which edged the collar, cuffs, turnback's, false back pockets, came in 2 varieties, the one for vertical and the other for horizontal positioning. The design consisted of alternating Imperial "N's" and eagles, in green on a yellow base separated by black thread. Most trumpeters and drummers did not receive these till 1813 though.


----------



## redleafjumper

3rd Herd, that is the date he was promoted, the same day that he captured Tobruk.  However he did not learn of his promotion until June 22.  According to Desmond Young's book Rommel:

"On the morning of June 21st, Rommel was able to report that Tobruk was in his hands.  Next day he learnt by wireless from Hitler's headquarters that he was a Field-Marshal, at forty-nine the youngest in the German Army...  After dinner he wrote to his wife: "Hitler has made me a Field-Marshal.  I would rather he had given me one more division."

Also good information about Napoleon's decree of 1810 on the dress for Trumpeters. 

What feature generally distinguished British Napoleonic cavalry horses from French ones?


----------



## 3rd Herd

Docked tails for the French. I seem to remember a painting of British infantry  ( Gordon Highlanders)being carried from the stirups or holding onto the horses tails to get into battle quicker. The charge of the Scott's Greys also shows undocked tails. The French charge of the British squares at Waterloo shows docked tails.


----------



## redleafjumper

Bobbed or docked tails for the French cavalry horses it is.

Anyone else have a question?  Doctor says I'm off typing for a few weeks  :-(


----------



## 3rd Herd

Sure Red Leaf
The name of the first tank developed by the British in September 1916. Hint mothers sometime have to remind young sons to shake their ..............................


----------



## redleafjumper

Little Willie.  Gee, I could type that!  "My Boy Willie" is still the armoured corps marchpast.


----------



## 3rd Herd

Correct Red Leaf came out of chat earlier. Next question please


----------



## redleafjumper

In August of 1561, an important  passenger got off of a French ship anchored off of Leith, Scotland.   Who was that passenger?


----------



## George Wallace

First thing to come to mind was Mary Queen of the Scots


----------



## NavComm

good answer George!


----------



## redleafjumper

It is not only a good answer, it is also the correct one - Mary had come to Britain to press her claim to the English throne.


----------



## 3rd Herd

On August 16th 1960 an independent republic was formed, in 1963 dissolution set in. What is the name of this republic and why was it created? Red Leaf Jumper due to what I suspect are self inflicted injuries I will allow one word answers from you.


----------



## NavComm

The Republic of Cyprus?


----------



## 3rd Herd

You got the name right NavComm but why was it created?


----------



## NavComm

OK, I'll have to research the why's of it. I know they were under British rule, perhaps it was part of an agreement between the greek cypriots and Britain?


----------



## 3rd Herd

To keep both and Greeks from invading the island. What native Canadian tribe was practtically annihilated in 1650 and by who


----------



## NavComm

The Wendats by the Iroquois although many of their people died due to starvation before that.


----------



## SprCForr

I was going to say the Hurons at the hands of the Iroquois.  ???


----------



## stukirkpatrick

The Hurons and Wyandot/Wendat are one and the same


----------



## SprCForr

I saw that on the next search hit! I guess I should have read a little more. 

...Still wondering if it was them tho'


----------



## 3rd Herd

Hurons under the hands of the Iroquios is the correct answer. New question, What was the furthest provinvce east the the Japanese balloons landed in during WW2?


----------



## Michael Dorosh

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Larry, that is crack on correct, the reversed facing colours distinguished French Cavalry trumpeters.  The other feature of note would be that the trumpeters usually had first pick of gray or white horses.



On a related note, who wore false sleeves on their tunics in the British Army?


----------



## 3rd Herd

on another musical note Micheal did not the drummers have the false sleeves?


----------



## Spr.Earl

What was Op. Eagle Claw?


----------



## 3rd Herd

Spr was not op Eagle Claw the failled resuce miision to get the u.s hostages out of Iran in 1980. Helicpoters crashed in the desert due to sand and bodes of US service personel were left behind. Col Beckwith covered it in his biography also made TV station news and the newspapers.


----------



## Spr.Earl

Correct,next.
What was the name of the runner who ellegedly delivered the announcement of the Victory at Marathon?


----------



## NavComm

Phaedippas who uttered the single word "nike" (greek for victory) and then died.


----------



## MacKenzie1NSH

didn't he run like 8 miles back and forth 2 or 3 times and died of exhaustion?


----------



## 3rd Herd

one for you Spr. Earl
What was Operation Chesterfield and which infantry regiment was on the right of the line?


----------



## Danjanou

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> one for you Spr. Earl
> What was Operation Chesterfield and which infantry regiment was on the right of the line?



May 23, 1944, Operation Chesterfield - Canadians broke through Hitler Line in Italy. A quick search on my bookshelf shows the assault brigade was the 2nd brigade of the 1st Div, so that narrows in down to the PPCLI, Loyal Edmonton Regiment and Seaforths all of who were pinned downinitially and therir attacks failed. Although I also noticed the Carleton And Yorks Regiment of the 3rd Bde mentioned as succesfully exploiting the gap they made. No mention of how they were lined up though.


----------



## para paramedic

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> New question, What was the furthest provinvce east the the Japanese balloons landed in during WW2?



Manitoba.

Ref: http://collections.ic.gc.ca/balloons/mission.htm
_The Japanese air balloon bomb mission created the first intercontinental missile. It took the Japanese people over two years to design the balloons, bombs, and automatic dropping mechanisms. On November 3rd, 1944, the first balloon was released from Japan. Over the course of the War's last year, the air balloons traveled as far east as Michigan in the U.S., Manitoba in Canada and as far south as Mexico._


----------



## 3rd Herd

Dnajannou
yes you have answered what is was. Let's see if some of the other triva all statrs can come up with the line up, battlewise. For those of you really challanged pbi isfrom same regiment.


quasiparamdeic
You win the balloon question with Manitoba. And can collect you prize a free bag of hot air in ottawa


----------



## RiflemanPhil

My math teacher stumped me with a question in class today. What happened at Malmadie?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

RiflemanPhil said:
			
		

> My math teacher stumped me with a question in class today. *What happened at Malmadie*?



Do you mean "Malmedy"?

The Malmedy Massacre. On December 17, 1944, halfway between the town of Malmedy and Ligneuville in Belgium, an American battalion was captured by an SS force. About 150 POWs were disarmed and sent to stand in a field. About 80 men were killed by gunfire, and their bodies were left where they fell. Many prisoners escaped into nearby woods. News spread quickly among Allied soldiers, and an order went out that all SS officers and paratroopers should be shot on sight. The Malmedy Massacre is regarded as the worst atrocity committed against American troops during the course of the war in Europe.


----------



## 3rd Herd

recceguy said:
			
		

> Do you mean "Malmedy"?
> 
> The Malmedy Massacre is regarded as the worst atrocity committed against American troops during the course of the war in Europe.



For your math teacher in return Rifleman:
Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower, as head of the American occupation of Germany in 1945, deliberately starved to death German prisoners of war in staggering numbers."the victims undoubtedly number over 800,000, almost certainly over 800,000 and quite likely over a million. Their deaths were knowingly caused by army officers who had sufficient resources to keep the prisoners alive."  

Source:Ambrose Stephen, Bischof Günter Eisenhower and the German PoWs: Facts Against Falsehood, Louisiana State University Press, Baton Rouge and London, 1992;


----------



## Mineguy

HIt your teacher with this one, pics and all....

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28529&highlight=malmedy

And ask your teacher do they know anything about the biggest unknown in the west allied massacre at bleiburg austria....I bet not! 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleiburg_massacre


----------



## geo

The whole story of Bleiburg is, in fact, quite interesting.
what was done to the Royalist Yugoslavs & the yugoslav refugees of the time is a real travesty to justice... 
Much evidence points to the future PM Harold MacMillan. It would appear that he meddled in the background, while keeping General Alexander in the dark on what was being done. 
A Cdn Major Paul Barre, on loan to the British army of occupation was a bit of a "fly in the ointment".... he refused to return the civilian refugees until such time as he could get written instructions on the matter.... in the end, he met Gen Alexander, the order was rescinded (albeit after the Yugoslav soldiers were forcibly repatriated to Tito and his partisans).


----------



## RiflemanPhil

Correct on that one about Malmady (and my mistake on spelling)
I gave him that response (before I had looked it up), and he said that wasnt all he was thinking about. He thought that some Canadians were also executed. I take it that his information was incorrect...?


----------



## stukirkpatrick

Perhaps he is thinking of the infamous executions of Canadian prisoners by the HitlerJugend under Kurt Meyer shortly after DDay in Normandy?


----------



## 3rd Herd

Kirkpatrick said:
			
		

> Perhaps he is thinking of the infamous executions of Canadian prisoners by the HitlerJugend under Kurt Meyer shortly after DDay in Normandy?



A sensation was caused in Allied Headquarters when reports came through that a considerable number of Canadian soldiers were shot after being taken prisoner by the 12th. SS Panzer Division ‘Hitler Jugend’. On the morning of June 8, thirty seven Canadians were taken prisoner by the 2nd Battalion of the 26th Panzer Grenadier Regiment. The prisoners were marched across country to the H/Q of the 2nd Battalion. In the village of Le Mesnil-Patty they were then ordered to sit down in a field with their wounded in the center. In a short while a half track arrived with eight or nine SS soldiers brandishing their machine pistols. Advancing in line towards the prisoners they opened fire killing thirty five men. Two of the Canadians ran for their lives and escaped the slaughter but were rounded up by a different German unit to spend the rest of the war in a POW camp. First to make contact with the Canadians was a combat group led by Obersturmbannfuhrer Karl-Heinz Milius and supported by the Prinz Battalion. Near the villages of Authie and Buron, a number of Canadians of the North Nova Scotia Highlanders, were taken prisoner. Numbering around forty, they were individually killed on the march back to the rear. Eight were ordered to remove their helmets and then shot with automatic rifles. Their bodies were dragged out on to the road and left to be run over by trucks and tanks. French civilians pulled the bodies back on to the pavement but were ordered to stop and to drag the bodies back onto the road again.

On the 7th and 8th of June, in the grounds of the Abbaye Ardenne, the headquarters of SS Brigadefuhrer Kurt Meyer’s 25th Panzer Grenadiers, twenty of the Canadians were shot. After being taken prisoner they were locked up in a stable and being called out by name they emerged from the doorway only to be shot in the back of the head. During the afternoon of June 8, twenty six Canadians were shot at the Chateau d’Audrie after being taken prisoner by a Reconnaissance Battalion of the SS Hitler Jugend. Other units of the German forces in France called the Hitler Jugend Division the ‘Murder Division’. After the war, investigations established that separate atrocities were committed in 31 different incidents involving 134 Canadians, 3 British and 1 American. Brought to trial before a Canadian military court at Aurich in Germany on  December 28, 1945, Kurt Meyer was sentenced to death but later reprieved and spent six years in a Canadian jail at New Brunswick before being transferred to the prison at Werl in Germany where he was released on parole on September 7, 1954. He died of a heart attack on December 23, 1961, at age 51.


----------



## redleafjumper

When I visited the Abbey d' Ardennes in '92, I was told by Jacques Vico  (he found the bodies) that the Canadians killed at the abbey (Vico family farm as the order was defunct) were mostly killed by being beaten to death by hammers, rifle butts and that only a few were shot.  The hands of a least a few of the bodies were found bound.  I believe that the testimony of a Polish conscript who witnessed the event and testified at SS Brigades Fuherer Meyer's (CO 12th SS Panzer Division - Hitler Jugend) trial bears out what Mr. Vico told us.  The number killed there is disputed, some sources say 27 and others have different numbers. There is a memorial in the garden that lists several names, but I don't recall how many, I'd have to check my slides.

Here's a question, at which commonwealth war cemetary are most of the victims buried from the massacre at Abbey d'Ardennes?


----------



## TangoTwoBravo

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> For your math teacher in return Rifleman:
> Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower, as head of the American occupation of Germany in 1945, deliberately starved to death German prisoners of war in staggering numbers."the victims undoubtedly number over 800,000, almost certainly over 800,000 and quite likely over a million. Their deaths were knowingly caused by army officers who had sufficient resources to keep the prisoners alive."
> 
> Source:Ambrose Stephen, Bischof Günter Eisenhower and the German PoWs: Facts Against Falsehood, Louisiana State University Press, Baton Rouge and London, 1992;



I think that it is important to point out that the allegation above was made in the 1989 book Other Losses by J. Bacque, which has been controversial to say the least.  The source listed above (Ambose and Gunter) was a collection of essays published in response to the release of Other Losses that set out to refute the allegation, citing "glaring errors...in reserach and conclusions."  The jacket cover of "Eisenhower and the German PoWs" began with the above quote to serve as an introduction to the purpose of the book, namely to refute the allegation.

The researchers in "Eisenhower and the German PoWs" come to a figure of 56,000 German PoWs dying in Western Allied capitivity in the post-war period, or a loss rate of 1% (there were some 5,000,000 German PoWs).  This is shown as comparable to other loss rates in WW II camps.  The Ambrose book does point out poor conditions in several camps, but also points out poor conditions across Europe.  There were "Other Losses" listed in Allied PoW figures (around 600,000), but these related to the release of Volksturm (young boys and old men) who were immediately released.  This distinguished them from PoWs "discharged" later in the occupation.

Please note that I am not saying that 56,000 deaths is an acceptable number, nor that I am a scholar on the issue.  I just want to point out that the issue is controversial and interested individuals should perhaps read both books.


----------



## muffin

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Here's a question, at which commonwealth war cemetary are most of the victims buried from the massacre at Abbey d'Ardennes?



I believe hte Garden is the Caen Memorial Garden.
Is the Cemetery the Cemetery at Bayeux?

Maggie


----------



## redleafjumper

Close Maggie, there are two cemeteries that I am aware of that have the victims of the Abbaye d'Ardennes massacre.  Bretteville-sur-Laize Commonwealth War cemetery, and Beny-sur-Mer Commonwealth War Cemetery.  My recollections from my visits there is that most are buried at Bretteville-sur-Laize.  Many of those soldiers were members of the North Nova Scotia Highlanders.


----------



## Spr.Earl

Also Sappers from 6Fd. Company were murdered also.If my old gray matter serves me right I think 4 Sappers.I forget their names.
I'll check with the curator of the Unit museum.


----------



## baboon6

I thought many of those murdered were from the Royal Winnipeg Rifles.


----------



## redleafjumper

Yes, there were also Royal Winnipeg Rifles and Sappers killed.  I will dig into my notes when I get home as I think that there were also some members of other units.  One of the problems with accounting for the casualties in the massacre(s) is that there was more than one incident of Canadian prisoners of war being executed in the Normandy campaign.  Some victims are included in the Abbaye d'Ardennes figures when they may have been killed elsewhere and the sources have some variance.  War certainly can bring out the worst in people as well as the best.


----------



## redleafjumper

I couldn't locate my notes, but I did find this entry at wikipedia:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbey_Ardennes.  I note that there is no mention of Royal Winnipeg Rifles or Sappers, but I am sure that there were some of those prisoners that were killed in the area.  I note that the names on the site don't add up to 27 and these were discovered soon after the place was captured.  Jaques Vico told us that he found bodies after the family moved back into the Abbaye at the end of the war, and though it wasn't clear, I suspect that these were additional bodies to those found after the place was captured.  I note that I earlier stated that Meyer commanded 12 SS Panzer, but in fact he commanded the 25th SS - Panzergrenadier Regiment of the 12th SS Panzer Division.  Lest we forget.   

From wikipedia:

"The abbaye d'Ardenne (Ardenne Abbey) is a site in Saint-Germain-la-Blanche-Herbe, near Caen, France containing a chapel built in 1121 and other medieval buildings. It is most notorious, though, for being the site of a massacre of prisoners of war during World War Two.

In June 1944, during the Battle of Normandy, l'abbaye d'Ardenne was the location of the headquarters of SS-Panzergrenadier Regiment 25, commanded by SS-Standartenführer Kurt Meyer. On June 7, eleven captured Canadian soldiers of The North Nova Scotia Highlanders and the 27th Canadian Armoured Regiment were taken to l'abbaye d'Ardenne and killed by the Hitler Youth 12th SS Panzer Division: Private Ivan Crowe, Private Charles Doucette, Corporal Joseph MacIntyre, Private Hollis McKeil, Private James Moss, Trooper James Bolt, Trooper George Gill, Trooper Thomas Henry, Trooper Roger Lockhead, Trooper Harold Philp, and Lieutenant Thomas Windsor.

Seven more North Nova Scotia Highlanders were killed there the next day: Private Walter Doherty, Private Reginald Keeping, Private Hugh MacDonald, Private George McNaughton, Private George Millar, Private Thomas Mont, Private Raymond Moore.

Elements of The Regina Rifle Regiment liberated l'abbaye d'Ardenne after an intense, bloody battle the following month, at which time evidence of the attrocity was discovered. Following the end of the war, the SS commander Kurt Meyer was charged with five war crimes, three of which he was convicted of. These included responsibility for the killings at l'abbaye d'Ardenne, and for ordering his men to take no prisoners. Meyer was imprisoned until 1954, when he was released from a West German prison."


----------



## Riobeard

If you haven't seen it yet, the latest book *Holding Juno* By Mark Zuehlke is a great read on the subject being discussed here.  It has great references and well researched info.
http://www.zuehlke.ca/military.php


----------



## redleafjumper

Probably time for another question.  What place did Napoleon occupy before he landed in Africa to capture Cairo?  Where did he land after occupying that place and prior to the capture of Cairo?


----------



## Shec

Don't know the answer to the first question but I believe Alexandria is the answer to the second?


----------



## redleafjumper

That's correct, Napoleon did land at Alexandria.  Anyone on the first part?


----------



## larry Strong

On the 12 of June , he captured Malta. And in so far as Kurt Meyer goes your not really wrong, as on the night of 17 June he took command of the 12th SS. He was at 33, the youngest Divisional Commander in the German Armed Forces.


----------



## redleafjumper

So you mean I made a mistake in that I thought that I was wrong?   ;D


And yes, the answer is Napoleon occupied  Malta.

Here's a real trivia question.  What is the type of tank mocked up to look like a Tiger 1 in the movie "Saving Private Ryan".  It is the same sort of vehicle used in the series "Band of Brothers".  What I want to know is:  What is the real designation of the real tank that has been made to look like a Tiger in those shows and what is its country of origin?


----------



## Mineguy

Private Reginald Keeping...from burgeo Nfld......but in the Cdn army  at the time amongst the murdered.


----------



## larry Strong

Russian T-34's

http://www.sproe.com/t/tiger-tank.html


----------



## redleafjumper

Yes they were Russian T-34's. The giveaway is the suspension chassis and track bogies.  They appear to be later model T-34/85's.
Not a bad mock-up, though.  Very convincing until seen in side profile.


----------



## larry Strong

What 2 formations (Div or greater)were mentioned in the last communique from the OKH, and on what date was it issued?


----------



## armyvern

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> What 2 formations (Div or greater)were mentioned in the last communique from the OKH, and on what date was it issued?



The German Army High Command released it's final communique on 9 May 1945:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/ww2/germfinalcomm.html

making specific mention of only the
Wehrmacht as a whole & Seventh Division

It also specifically mentions "the defenders of the Atlantic bases, our forces in Norway and garrisons of the Aegean Islands." Notes that no word had been received from the Army Groups at Loehr, Rendulic and Schoerner. 
and all praises all "German soldiers on land, at sea and in the air"

Although not named, reference is also made to German 16th & 18th Armies in Courland (Latvia) and XVII Armeekorps (Breslau/Silesia).


----------



## larry Strong

Bang on Armyvern  I was going by the first 2 paragraphs in which the 7th Div is mentioned in the first,and in the second one the Armies in the Kurland.


----------



## redleafjumper

This has been quiet for a while so:

Who was the officer of the 95th Rifles responsible for selecting  personnel of that unit from the excess volunteers for the storming of the breaches (forlorn hope) of Badajoz?


----------



## larry Strong

To the best of my knowledge, and I am working on confirmation, but the forlorn hope were taken from the South Essex Regiment and that the Sharpe's Rifles part is "artistic licence for the series"


----------



## Danjanou

The South Essex Regiment is fictitious, and while Cornwell used them and Captain Richard Sharpe (95th Rifles) to lead the Forlorn Hope at Badajoz in “Sharpes Company” he does admit in the appendix who the real officer was. Don’t have my copy at work, so I’ll have to wait until I get home tonight unless this is already answered before that (I refuse to Google for answers in this quiz).


----------



## redleafjumper

This answer for this question is not taken from a work of fiction, but from the 1835 writings of the officer of the 95th rifles who had the job.  As a very big clue, the officer held the position of adjutant for his battalion.


----------



## muffin

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> This answer for this question is not taken from a work of fiction, but from the 1835 writings of the officer of the 95th rifles who had the job.  As a very big clue, the officer held the position of adjutant for his battalion.



Is is Captain John Kincaid? (aka Sir John Kincaid)


----------



## redleafjumper

Muffin, it is indeed Captain Sir John Kincaid.  In his book "Random Shots from a Rifleman", he speaks of the difficulty in selecting the members of the forlorn hope from the large number of volunteers eager for honour.  Incidentally, Cornwall's "South Essex Regiment" is a fictitious unit.  Cornwell acknowledges that he purposely did not give the South Essex a number so as not to take from any other British regiment of the line, all of which were numbered.

Who is believed to have been saved from death or capture by the charge of which two cavalry regiments at Villers-en-Cauchies, near Cambrai?


----------



## DG-41

That would be Emperor Francis I of Austria, saved by the charge of General Peter Ott leading a pair of British and Austrian regiments.

I'm afraid I don't know which regiments though.

DG


----------



## muffin

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Muffin, it is indeed Captain Sir John Kincaid.  In his book "Random Shots from a Rifleman", he speaks of the difficulty in selecting the members of the forlorn hope from the large number of volunteers eager for honour.  Incidentally, Cornwall's "South Essex Regiment" is a fictitious unit.  Cornwell acknowledges that he purposely did not give the South Essex a number so as not to take from any other British regiment of the line, all of which were numbered.
> 
> Who is believed to have been saved from death or capture by the charge of which two cavalry regiments at Villers-en-Cauchies, near Cambrai?



I believe it was the 15th (King's Royal regiment of Light Dragoons) and the Leopold Hussars - and they were saving His Imperial Majesty Emperor of Germany ... but I am not 100% sure of it.


----------



## redleafjumper

DGRecce is correct about the person being saved and Muffin is partially correct about the regiments.  The two cavalry units credited were the 15th Light Dragoons and Sentkeresky's Hussars.  Commander of the allies was Lt. General Otto.

Who commanded the great attempted breakout at Aspern-Essling?


----------



## larry Strong

Massena

http://members.tripod.com/amik78/Massena.html

The Austrians, aware of the situation, mounted massive assaults on both Aspern and Essling. The fighting was furious and the losses were staggering, but the attacks were beaten back. In the afternoon, Napoleon decided to withdraw his troops to the island of Lobau. *Masséna was given the responsibility of extricating what was left of the army* and the bloody battle of Aspern-Essling came to an end. This battle was undeniably a severe shock for Napoleon; it was his first indisputable defeat. He should not have been surprised; he violated most of those principles that had brought him victory in the past. Without the extraordinary efforts of his officers and men, Aspern-Essling would have been a monumental disaster. On the other hand, even in the midst of this catastrophe, it was one of Masséna's finest hours; he remained sanguine, tranquil, and above all, resolute. His heroic rank and file had covered themselves with glory, but at staggering costs. French losses totaled over 20,000 men, including Marshal Lannes, and the Austrians casualties numbered in excess of 25,000.


----------



## DG-41

During the Melfa River crossing in the Italian campaign of WW2, a Canadian recce troop leader seized the initial crossing point and held it until re-enforcements arrived.

1) What was his name?

2) What unit was he from?

3) What decoration did he receive for this action?

DG


----------



## muffin

RecceDG said:
			
		

> During the Melfa River crossing in the Italian campaign of WW2, a Canadian recce troop leader seized the initial crossing point and held it until re-enforcements arrived.
> 
> 1) What was his name?
> 
> 2) What unit was he from?
> 
> 3) What decoration did he receive for this action?
> 
> DG




MAJOR JOHN KEEFER MAHONY
The Westminster Regiment (Motor)
The Canadian Army

On 24 May 1944 at the River Melfa, Italy, Major Mahony and his company were ordered to establish the initial bridgehead over the river. This was accomplished and for five hours the company maintained its position in the face of enemy fire and attack until the remaining companies and supporting weapons were able to reinforce them. Early in the action Major Mahony was wounded in the head and twice in the leg, but he refused medical aid and continued to direct the defence of the bridgehead. The enemy saw that this officer was the soul of the defence and consequently made him their particular target.


----------



## DG-41

I'm sorry, that's not correct.

You have named the re-enforcement commander, not the troop leader who established the initial crossing....

DG


----------



## muffin

RecceDG said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, that's not correct.
> 
> You have named the re-enforcement commander, not the troop leader who established the initial crossing....
> 
> DG



AH! You're right 

Lieutenant Ed Perkins 
 Lord Strathcona’s regimental reconnaissance
Distinguished Service Order

http://www.virtualmuseum.ca/Exhibitions/Militaris/eng/land/people/pplpopup/c.1.21c.html


----------



## redleafjumper

Massena commanded the successful withdrawal, though command of the withdrawal was first given to Marshal Jean Lannes who was wounded and later died during the effort.


----------



## 3rd Herd

back to the early 18th I see okay,

Stalin issued on the 3rd of July 1941, a post-anovleniye or decree similar to the one issued by Czar Alexender in October-December 1812. What was the common theme of these decrees ?


----------



## redleafjumper

Would this be that all citizens must join together to fight the invader to defend holy mother Russia?


----------



## 3rd Herd

RedLeaf,

Correct "essentially a decree to create intolerable conditions for the invaders" Werth Alexander, Russia at War.


----------



## redleafjumper

Who was one of George Washington's main fundraisers, to the point that he was known as 'the financier of the revolution?'


----------



## 3rd Herd

Redleaf.
would that be Robert Morris of Philadelphia


----------



## redleafjumper

Yes, 3rdHerd Robert Morris it is!


----------



## RiflemanPhil

Name the defected British admiral involved in independence in South America. What was his flagships name?


----------



## 3rd Herd

Rifleman,
Thomas Cochrane his flagship was the O'Higgins 1820
Source pg.816 The Encyclopedia of Military History


----------



## 3rd Herd

In 1941 a submarine was sunk in the Straits of Juan de Fucca. What nationality was this submarine and what was the nationality of the vessel which sank this sub? Bossi gave me the inspiration for this.


----------



## larry Strong

Japaness sub and Brazilian AS ship?


----------



## 3rd Herd

Sorry Larry no Japanese submarines sunk in Canadian waters. Now that is not to say that Japanese submarines did not do some sinking. Date for the question is October 11, 1942


----------



## redleafjumper

A US submarine sank by a US ship?


----------



## 3rd Herd

Sorry Redleaf -no
but it was a US sub at one time sold it to someone else.


----------



## Spr.Earl

Every day at sun set the Last Post and Revielle (revelle) are blown.
Where is this done?


----------



## armyvern

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> Every day at sun set the Last Post and Revielle (revelle) are blown.
> Where is this done?


2000hrs local...each day at the Menin Gate. Also happens to be where my great-uncle (grave unknown) who died during Passchendaele is memorialized.


----------



## Spr.Earl

armyvern said:
			
		

> 2000hrs local...each day at the Menin Gate. Also happens to be where my great-uncle (grave unknown) who died during Passchendaele is memorialized.


That was a fast answer. 
It's done for all who lost there lives in WWI but mainly those who lost their lives at Passchendaele.

I have the mp track's for the Last Post and Revieille from the Menin Gate but the site does not support the file's.
Quite moving,hearing so many bugle's calling.


----------



## armyvern

I have the track too. Touching it is.


----------



## Spr.Earl

On the assault of Vimy Ridge 3 V.C's were awarded.To whom and which Battalion's did the belong to?


----------



## fir_na_tine

Private William Milne of the 16th Battalion, Lance-Sergeant Ellis Sifton of the 18th Battalion and Captain Thain MacDowell of the 38th Battalion if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## Spr.Earl

Corect,
9/4/1917
For their actions at Vimy Ridge, Ellis Sifton of the 18th Battalion, Captain
Thain MacDowell of the 38th Battalion, and Private William Milne of the 16th
Battalion, C.E.F. earn the Victoria Cross.


----------



## BernDawg

Found this looking for the sub answer.  Action occured on The 11th of Oct 1942

Soviet submarine L-16 torpedoed and sunk by Japanese submarine I-25 approximately 500 miles west of Seattle. All 50 aboard were killed. L-16 left Petropavlovsk with L-15 to join the Northern Fleet on 26 September 1942. The two submarines intended to sail trough Dutch Harbor, San Francisco to the Panama Canal. The crew of L-15 witnessed the sinking 

Could this be the sub in question?


----------



## 3rd Herd

BernDawg
Come to the head of the class. Yes your answer is the correct one. It was one of two instances that nearly brought the Soviet Union into an early entry in the Pacific War against Japan,


----------



## BernDawg

Wow.  My turn eh?  I'm going to have to think of something pithy.  Wait out.


----------



## BernDawg

OK.  Probably an easy one for the regulars here but here goes.  What was the code name for the deception plan prior to operation Overlord?


----------



## Art Johnson

Just a comment on bugle calls they are sounded not blown, as in "Bugler Sound Officers Call".


----------



## 043

BernDawg said:
			
		

> OK.  Probably an easy one for the regulars here but here goes.  What was the code name for the deception plan prior to operation Overlord?



Operation Fortitude


----------



## BernDawg

Bravo! ;D


----------



## 043

In keeping with the Normandy theme, who was in command of the US 1st Army Group?


----------



## ackland

General Patton


----------



## 043

Operation Fortitude was the codename for the deception operations used by the Allied forces during World War II in connection with the Normandy landings. It was divided into Fortitude North, a threat to invade Norway, and Fortitude South, designed to induce the Germans to believe that the main invasionof France would occur in the Pas de Calais rather than Normandy. Fortitude South was one of the most successful deception operations of the war, and arguably the most important.

Both Fortitude North and Fortitude South were related to a wider deception plan called *Operation Bodyguard*.

Looks like I was incorrect..................


----------



## redleafjumper

Who was the allied commander of operation Overlord?


----------



## 043

It consisted of American, British, Canadian, Polish, and Free French Armies under command of *General Eisenhower*, the Supreme Commander of the Allied Expeditionary Force (the choice of Eisenhower was officially made by President Roosevelt in December 1943, and agreed upon by the British).


----------



## redleafjumper

Eisenhower is correct.  Who commanded the Allied ground forces for the Normandy Landings?


----------



## The Anti-Royal

Montgomery was (to use today's terminology) the land component commander.


----------



## geo

(though George S Patton was spitting bullets at the thought of following Monty's orders)


----------



## Danjanou

geo said:
			
		

> (though George S Patton was spitting bullets at the thought of following Monty's orders)



Remember though Patton was actually the head of the "deception army" encamped around Dover. One of the reasons that the deception plan worked was the Germans naturally presumed that an aggresive commander such as George could ever be in charge of the "decoys."


----------



## baboon6

Who was the naval commander for the Normandy invasion and what significant naval operation had he commanded in 1940?


----------



## armyvern

baboon6 said:
			
		

> Who was the naval commander for the Normandy invasion and what significant naval operation had he commanded in 1940?



*Bertram Homes Ramsay*, 1883-1945, was the Naval Commander in Chief of Operation Overlord. In June 1940 with the collapse of the Allied Northern Front in France he Commanded the evacuation of the British Expeditionary Force and Allied Forces from Dunkirk, an achievement for which he was knighted.

http://search.eb.com/dday/article-9344628


----------



## 3rd Herd

British Admiral  Sir Bertram Ramsey who took command of Operation Dynamo. The effort to evacuate the BEF from the beaches of Dunkirk

Edit Source: Hibbert Christopher "Operation Dynamo" pg. 156


----------



## 3rd Herd

What country was invaded jointly by both the Anglo and Soviet Forces to prevent it from joining with the Axis pact?


----------



## armyvern

Hmm I originally thought Afghanistan but it would seem that the correct answer is Iran, who suffered a joint anglo-soviet invasion in 1941, this directly resulted in Afghanistan becoming surrounded by Allied-Controlled Territiories leading to the expulsion of Axis nationals...with Afghanistan having "neutral" status.

http://stonebooks.com/history/afghanistan.shtml

edited to add: "Iran was then known as "Persia."


----------



## 3rd Herd

ArmyVern is correct. Both the Soviets and Anglo forces in August of 1941 violated the "sovereignty of a neutral nation" and invaded Perisa, Iraq and Syria.


----------



## armyvern

In the 1950s what significant incident occured along the Morice Line and what immediate action did this result in by the UN Security Council?


----------



## Armymedic

Tunisian based guerillas of the FLN broke thru the line. But were destroyed by superior French Forces in late 1957.

The UN had an immediate general assembly meeting to discuss the Algierian War. But as France is a permanet seat member of the security council, they weren't able to do much until 1960.


----------



## armyvern

Armymedic said:
			
		

> Tunisian based guerillas of the FLN broke thru the line. But were destroyed by superior French Forces in late 1957.
> The UN had an immediate general assembly meeting to discuss the Algierian War. But as France is a permanet seat member of the security council, they weren't able to do much until 1960.


Good try. Significant incident occured in Feb 1958 and caused an immediate reaction by the UN Security Council (vice the General Assembly).


----------



## 3rd Herd

Okay Vern,
In February 1958 the French Air Force in Algeria mounted an unauthorized bombing of an unprotected refugee camp at Sakhiet, in Tunisia and after the storm of condemnation from the worlds media worsened France's relationship with her allies and put her in the dock of the United Nations.
http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:i5-yuJB1M5oJ:www.palgrave.com/pdfs/0333774566.pdf+United+Nations+security+council+february+1958+Morice+Line&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=16


----------



## armyvern

3rd Herd. Absolutely. 
In Feb 58 a French reconnaissance plane was shot down along the Morice Line by fire from the Tunisian village of Sakiet, across the line from the location where a French Patrol had earlier been ambushed. 
The French protested to the Tunisians, but, following another attack on a French patrol, retaliated by bombing and levelling Sakiet with air-strikes, killing upwards of 80 civilians. 
The Tunisians lodged an official protest of the air-strikes with the UN Security Council who immediately appointed the US and Great-Britian as mediators in the dispute - formally transforming France's "internal conflict" in Algeria to an "international" conflict. This move to International conflict led to the complete collapse of the government of Algeria's French Premiere, Felix Galliard.

Source:
Daniel Moran, _Wars of National Liberation_ (2001), ISBN: 1552782875. Cassel, Wellington House, 125 Strand, London WC2R 0BB.


----------



## 3rd Herd

This country was involved in two famous last stands, in 1836 and again in 1863. Where were these last stands and who were the involved parties?


----------



## BernDawg

Mexico.

On 30 April,1863 the French Foreign Legion earned its legendary status when the small infantry patrol unit led by Capitaine Danjou numbering 62 soldiers and three officers was attacked and besieged by Mexican infantry and cavalry units numbering three battalions, and was forced to make a defense in Hacienda Camarón. Danjou was mortally wounded in the defense of the hacienda, and the last of his men mounted a desperate bayonet attack. They fought to nearly the last man, with three survivors. 'Camerone Day' is a day of celebration for Legionnaires in years afterwards.

The other one, of course, is the valiant defence of the mission in San Antonio by the republic of Texas.


----------



## Danjanou

Damn  it someone types faster than me on here. However 

April 30th 1 63 a Company of la Legion Etrangere under the command of Capt Jean Danjou approx 65 all ranks guarding a supply column engaged approximately 850 Cavalry and 1200 Infantry Mexican Juarista troops at Camerone near Vera Cruz.

The Legonanires were reduced to 12 members all wounded before they finally surrendered. Prior to that when they ran out of ammunition the half dozen unwounded troops made a bayonet charge against an attacking battalion. Juarista casualties were estimated in excess of 300.

The 13 day siege of the Alamo ended March 13, 1836 when 1,600 Mexican troops under president Santa Ana (out of the total army strength of 4-5,000) attacked the mission. All of the 180-200 defenders inside were killed either outright or executed after the battle.


----------



## BernDawg

Cut and paste my friend.  Cut and paste. ;D


----------



## 3rd Herd

BernDawg said:
			
		

> Cut and paste my friend.  Cut and paste. ;D



See thread re: plagiarism and you, You owe me five hundred lines of " I will cite my sources when I Cut and Paste in my haste to answer the question" by the end of class please. Danjanou is the winner, next question please.


----------



## Danjanou

Ok an easy one. name the individual who was awarded the Navy Cross 5 times.

Bonus points if you can name the actions for which they were awarded for.


----------



## 3rd Herd

Davenport Roy Milton, Commander, USN
1)Date of Action: June 30 - August 10, 1943
Citation:
The Navy Cross is presented to Roy M. Davenport, Lieutenant Commander, U.S. Navy, for extraordinary heroism as Commanding Officer of a United States Submarine during operations against enemy Japanese forces in the Pacific Area. Throughout numerous hazardous war patrols in enemy-infested waters, Lieutenant Commander Davenport pressed home his attacks with cool and courageous determination and despite intense and persistent hostile opposition, succeeded in sinking over 10,500 tons of enemy shipping and damaging over 35,500 tons. His aggressive fighting spirit, inspiring leadership and the splendid efficiency of the men in his command contributed immeasurably to the success of our operations in this vital area and were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service.

2)Date of Action: September 2 - 28, 1943
The Navy Cross is presented to Roy M. Davenport, Lieutenant Commander, U.S. Navy, for extraordinary heroism as Commanding Officer of a United States Submarine while that vessel was engaged in an aggressive and successful patrol against enemy Japanese in the Pacific War Area. Although operating in the presence of formidable concentrations of anti-submarine vessels, Lieutenant Commander Davenport pressed home a series of vigorous and persistent attacks which resulted in the sinking or damaging of an important amount of hostile shipping. Despite severe countermeasures on the part of the enemy, he brought his ship through many perilous encounters and his crew home without material damage or loss of life. His expert seamanship and cool courage in the face of great personal danger were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service.

3)Date of Action: October 20 - November 15, 1943
The Navy Cross is presented to Roy M. Davenport, Lieutenant Commander, U.S. Navy, for extraordinary heroism as Commanding Officer of the U.S.S. Haddock during the Seventh War Patrol in enemy Japanese-controlled waters in the Pacific War Area. With superb tactical skill, Commander Davenport maneuvered his ship into striking position and in a daring surface torpedo attack against a hostile destroyer search group, sank one of the Japanese warships then, during the ensuing confusion, carried out a successful surface retirement. Contacting two heavily escorted enemy convoys, he and his gallant command delivered accurate and devastating attacks against the hostile vessels, sinking a large amount of Japanese shipping. Commander Davenport's inspiring leadership and indomitable fighting spirit were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service.

4)Date of Action: September 13 - October 23, 1944
The Navy Cross is presented to Roy M. Davenport, Commander, U.S. Navy, for extraordinary heroism as Commanding Officer of the U.S.S. Trepang during the First War Patrol of that vessel in enemy waters. Effectively covering wide areas of the enemy's shipping routes, Commander Davenport tracked Japanese surface forces with relentless determination, skillfully developing his contacts into highly aggressive torpedo attacks. Boldly launching his fire against hostile escorted convoys, he directed his command in the destruction of several important enemy vessels and continued his vigorous tactics by a night surface attack against a Japanese task force to sink or damage severely combatant ships of heavy fire power and vital to the enemy's sustained prosecution of the war. His valiant ship-handling in evading severe enemy countermeasures despite the Trepang's inferior speed and highly phosphorescent seas and the gallant fighting spirit of the entire ship's company reflect the highest credit upon Commander Davenport and the United States Naval Service.

5)Date of Action: November 16 - December 20, 1944
The Navy Cross is presented to Roy M. Davenport, Commander, U.S. Navy, for extraordinary heroism as Commanding Officer of the U.S.S. Trepang during the Second War Patrol of that vessel in enemy Japanese-controlled waters. Daringly penetrating a strong hostile escort screen to deliver a series of night surface attacks, Commander Davenport launched his torpedoes into an escorted convoy, holding to his targets grimly in the face of heavy countermeasures and sinking an important amount of Japanese tonnage. During this excellently planned and brilliantly executed engagement, the Trepang effectively coordinated her efforts with other submarines and, as a result of the combined firepower of these gallant ships, contributed to the destruction of the entire convoy within a period of three hours. A courageous and expert seaman, forceful and inspiring in his leadership, Commander Davenport, as Group Commander, was largely responsible for the outstanding success of this vital and hazardous mission. His gallant conduct and the exceptional combat readiness of his command reflect the highest credit upon Commander Davenport and the United States Naval Service.

Source:http://www.homeofheroes.com/verify/1_Citations/03_wwii-nc/nc_06wwii_navy.html


----------



## Danjanou

Not the individual I was thinking of to be honest, however very good. My bad I just finished reading his biography and I’m sure it mentioned he was the only person awarded this decoration 5 times.

Lt General Lewis “Chesty” Puller USMC

PULLER, LEWIS B.
(First Award)
First Lieutenant, U.S. Marine Corps
Guardia Nacional de Nicaragua
Date of Action: February 16 - August 19, 1930
Citation:
The Navy Cross is presented to Lewis B. Puller, First Lieutenant, U.S. Marine Corps, for distinguished service in the line of his professional while commanding a Nicaraguan National Guard patrol. First Lieutenant Lewis B. Puller, United States Marine Corps, successfully led his forces into five successful engagements against superior numbers of armed bandit forces; namely, at LaVirgen on 16 February 1930, at Los Cedros on 6 June 1930, at Moncotal on 22 July 1930, at Guapinol on 25 July 1930, and at Malacate on 19 August 1930, with the result that the bandits were in each engagement completely routed with losses of nine killed and many wounded. By his intelligent and forceful leadership without thought of his own personal safety, by great physical exertion and by suffering many hardships, Lieutenant Puller surmounted all obstacles and dealt five successive and severe blows against organized banditry in the Republic of Nicaragua.

PULLER, LEWIS B.
(Second Award)
First Lieutenant, U.S. Marine Corps
Guardia Nacional de Nicaragua
Date of Action: September 20 - October 1, 1932
Citation:
The Navy Cross is presented to Lewis B. Puller, First Lieutenant, U.S. Marine Corps, for exceptionally meritorious service in a duty of great responsibility while in command of a Guardia Patrol from 20 September to 1 October 1932. Lieutenant Puller and his command of forty Guardia and Gunnery Sergeant William A. Lee, United States Marine Corps, serving as a First Lieutenant in the Guardia, penetrated the isolated mountainous bandit territory for a distance of from eighty to one hundred miles north of Jinotega, his nearest base. This patrol was ambushed on 26 September 1932, at a point northeast of Mount Kilambe by an insurgent force of one hundred fifty in a well-prepared position armed with not less than seven automatic weapons and various classes of small arms and well-supplied with ammunition. Early in the combat, Gunnery Sergeant Lee, the Second in Command was seriously wounded and reported as dead. The Guardia immediately behind Lieutenant Puller in the point was killed by the first burst of fire. Lieutenant Puller, with great courage, coolness and display of military judgment, so directed the fire and movement of his men that the enemy were driven first from the high ground on the right of his position, and then by a flanking movement forced from the high ground to the left and finally were scattered in confusion with a loss of ten killed and many wounded by the persistent and well-directed attack of the patrol. The numerous casualties suffered by the enemy and the Guardia losses of two killed and four wounded are indicative of the severity of the enemy resistance. This signal victory in jungle country, with no lines of communication and a hundred miles from any supporting force, was largely due to the indomitable courage and persistence of the patrol commander. Returning with the wounded to Jinotega, the patrol was ambushed twice by superior forces on 30 September. On both of the occasions the enemy was dispersed with severe losses.

PULLER, LEWIS B.
(Third Award)
Lieutenant Colonel, U.S. Marine Corps
1st Battalion, 7th Marines, 1st Marine Division
Date of Action: October 24 - 25, 1942
Citation:
The Navy Cross is presented to Lewis B. Puller, Lieutenant Colonel, U.S. Marine Corps, for extraordinary heroism as Commanding Officer of the First Battalion, Seventh Marines, First Marine Division, during the action against enemy Japanese forces on Guadalcanal, Solomon Islands, on the night of 24 to 25 October 1942. While Lieutenant Colonel Puller's battalion was holding a mile-long front in a heavy downpour of rain, a Japanese force, superior in number, launched a vigorous assault against that position of the line which passed through a dense jungle. Courageously withstanding the enemy's desperate and determined attacks, Lieutenant Colonel Puller not only held his battalion to its position until reinforcements arrived three hours later, but also effectively commanded the augmented force until late in the afternoon of the next day. By his tireless devotion to duty and cool judgment under fire, he prevented a hostile penetration of our lines and was largely responsible for the successful defense of the sector assigned to his troops.

PULLER, LEWIS B.
(Fourth Award)
Lieutenant Colonel, U.S. Marine Corps
7th Marines, 1st Marine Division
Date of Action: December 26, 1943 - January 19, 1944
Citation:
The Navy Cross is presented to Lewis B. Puller, Lieutenant Colonel, U.S. Marine Corps, for extraordinary heroism as Executive Officer of the Seventh Marines, First Marine Division, serving with the Sixth United States Army, in combat against enemy Japanese forces at Cape Gloucester, New Britain, from 26 December 1943 to 19 January 1944. Assigned temporary command of the Third Battalion, Seventh Marines, from 4 to 9 January, Lieutenant Colonel Puller quickly reorganized and advanced his unit, effecting the seizure of the objective without delay. Assuming additional duty in command of the Third Battalion, Fifth Marines, from 7 to 8 January, after the commanding officer and executive officer had been wounded, Lieutenant Colonel Puller unhesitatingly exposed himself to rifle, machine-gun and mortar fire from strongly entrenched Japanese positions to move from company to company in his front lines, reorganizing and maintaining a critical position along a fire-swept ridge. His forceful leadership and gallant fighting spirit under the most hazardous conditions were contributing factors in the defeat of the enemy during this campaign and in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service.

PULLER, LEWIS B.
(Fifth Award)
Colonel, U.S. Marine Corps
1st Marines, 1st Marine Div.
Date of Action: December 5 - 10, 1950
Citation:
The Navy Cross is presented to Lewis B. Puller, Colonel, U.S. Marine Corps, for extraordinary heroism as Commanding Officer of the First Marines, First Marine Division (Reinforced), in action against aggressor forces in the vicinity of Koto-ri, Korea, from 5 to 10 December 1950. Fighting continuously in sub-zero weather against a vastly outnumbering hostile force, Colonel Puller drove off repeated and fanatical enemy attacks upon his Regimental defense sector and supply points. Although the area was frequently covered by grazing machine-gun fire and intense artillery and mortar fire, he coolly moved along his troops to insure their correct tactical employment, reinforced the lines as the situation demanded, and successfully defended the perimeter, keeping open the main supply routes for the movement of the Division. During the attack from Koto-ri to Hungnam, he expertly utilized his Regiment as the Division rear guard, repelling two fierce enemy assaults which severely threatened the security of the unit, and personally supervised the care and prompt evacuation of all casualties. By his unflagging determination, he served to inspire his men to heroic efforts in defense of their positions and assured the safety of much valuable equipment which would otherwise have been lost to the enemy. His skilled leadership, superb courage and valiant devotion to duty in the face of overwhelming odds reflect the highest credit upon Colonel Puller and the United States Naval Service.


----------



## Art Johnson

Seeing that this is Black History Month name the first Black Canadian to be awarded the Victoria Cross?


----------



## armyvern

Art Johnson said:
			
		

> Seeing that this is Black History Month name the first Black Canadian to be awarded the Victoria Cross?



William Hall (April 28, 1827 – August 25, 1904) was the first black person, the first Nova Scotian, and third Canadian-born recipient of the Victoria Cross. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Hall


----------



## Spr.Earl

armyvern said:
			
		

> William Hall (April 28, 1827 – August 25, 1904) was the first black person, the first Nova Scotian, and third Canadian-born recipient of the Victoria Cross.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Hall



What's with the "black history month?"
They only have a one month of history?
Let's keep P.C. out of History!

We are all Canadians,wheather white,black,yellow,brown etc.
Many creed's,colours have made what we are today and don't minimize this by your above post with P.C..
By the way if you go back to about page 2 or 3 of this thread you will find the account of his daring do.


----------



## redleafjumper

With respect, I must disagree with SprEarl wouldn't say that "black history month" is merely PC.  February is commemorated annually in most academic institutions and many other places as "Black History" month.  In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with a question that mentions that theme.  It is after all, intended to promote an interest in history which is, after all, the purpose of this thread. 

What is/are caligae, and what are two weapons that a soldier using caligae would have carried?


----------



## ackland

Caligae Heavy military sandals that used iron hob-nails as treads, similar to modern day athletic cleats. The leather thongs continued half way up the shin and tied there, and in cold weather could be stuffed with wool or fur. Eventually these would be replaced by a heavier style of actual boot. Caligae was also the term from which the Emperor Gaius (Caligula) got his nickname. He was the son of the enormously popular Legate Germanicus and accompanied his Legions on several northern campaigns. As a boy the Legionaries saw him as a good luck mascot and called him Caligula for "Little Boots".

GladiusGladius The Roman short sword. It was a double-edged weapon about 18 long and two inches wide, often with a corrugated bone grip formed to the Legionaries hand. A large round ball at the end helped with the balance. The primary use was for thrusting at short range. It was carried high on the right hand side so as to be clear of the legs and the shield arm.

Pugio The Roman dagger was anywhere from 7 to 11 inches long in similar width to the gladius. It could be highly decorative or very plain, but was a very useful secondary weapon in case of being disarmed. It was attached to the belt on the left hand side.


----------



## redleafjumper

An excellent answer TR; bonus marks for the Caligula information.  The weapons answers are good ones.  

What other weapon(s) may a Roman Legionary have employed?


----------



## muffin

All of these 

http://www.unrv.com/military/legionary-weapons-equipment.php

muffin


----------



## redleafjumper

Yes, muffin, all these and more.  From that website one might add the Parazonium (the officer's sword) and the Pilum (the legionary's principal  weapon).  But I see no mention of the caltrop, a remarkable four pointed device used to break up attacks from cavalry or chariot mounted soldiers.  They would be strewn on the ground in front of the infantry formation; the horses would step on the upward point and injure themselves.  This would result in throwing the rider or otherwise disrupting the charge.  Caltrops are used nowaday in various forms to stop rubber tired traffic.

What is a buckler?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> What is a buckler?


A small hand held shield, usually round. It was used for punching or deflecting. Held in the fist as opposed to worn on the arm like a normal shield.


----------



## redleafjumper

Hey Recceguy, that's a buckler!  Here is an interesting web site that mentions Black History month: http://www.recruiting.forces.gc.ca/engraph/news/details_e.aspx?id=349

What's a shiavona?





(Modified to add website address)


----------



## armyvern

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> What's a shiavona?


"It's a medieval sword which reached it's height of development in the 1600s. It 's design was inspired by complex south German bastard sword designs, and was used by Slavonic mercenaries. The name Schiavona is short for 'Spada Shiavona' which means Slavonic sword in Italian."


[url]http://swordplayalliance.com/swordgallery/swo1.html]
http://swordplayalliance.com/swordgallery/swo1.html


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Excatly what Vern said, here is another link with some dimensions to the sword.

http://www.phoenixmetalcreations.com/schiavona.html


----------



## Acorn

TR - if you cut and paste, the guidelines for this site require you to cite the source - i.e. the website muffin posted. Your answer is verbatim from that website.


----------



## 3rd Herd

The first military historians started writting in the 5th Century BC. Though they were not conscious military historians their works inevitably dealt with military events. Who are these two?


----------



## muffin

Thucydides and Herodotus

Though Thucydides is considered the "father of History" becuase Herodotus used referenced to lore and gods in his writing while Thucydides relied on science.

5th century was when Thucydides wrote "History of the Peloponnesian War."

muffin

http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=ac24


----------



## 3rd Herd

Muffin earns herself another gold star. "The first known histories-those of Herodotus and Thucydides- though they were not conscious military historians their works inevitably dealt with military events. And about the same time, in China Sun Tzu was composing his treatise "The Art of War".
Next question please.


----------



## larry Strong

What was the last military award institued and issued to German soldier's in the dying days of WW2.

Hint. It would not be made out of metal.


----------



## geo

the order of the 9mm parabellum
issued by security troops to soldiers with cold feet


----------



## larry Strong

No not quite, it's an official award. Remember they used different means to show military valor,....ummm this on is more on a group level, as opposed to an individual award. As they always were saying in the molithia "think outside the box" Hope this helps.


----------



## geo

24hr furlough with the Liebenstraum ladies


----------



## dangerboy

The Kurland Cuff Tittle -


----------



## 3rd Herd

Subsituting for Larry,
You get a blue star, a source to go with your very correct answer would have seen you get a gold star. Next question please

Note from Larry:
The "Kurland" cuff title. It was instituted 12.03.45 and was manufactured locally within the area of Armygroup "Kurland"

my Reference is:

Badges and Insignia of the Third Reich 1933-194 by Brian Leigh Davis


----------



## dangerboy

Source is from the book "Bridgehead Kurland: The six Epic Battles of Heeresgruppe Kurland" by Franz Kurowski published by J.J. Fedorwicz Publishing, Inc


----------



## 3rd Herd

Thanks very much Danger Boy for providing a source, you get a gold star. Next question to ask is all yours.


----------



## larry Strong

Right on Dangerboy, Thanks for your help 3rd Herd


----------



## 3rd Herd

"Blunders!, Blunders! More Blunders!" proclamied many newspaer headlines through out the world in the begining of the 2Oth Century. What were the three blunders?


----------



## Danjanou

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> "Blunders!, Blunders! More Blunders!" proclamied many newspaer headlines through out the world in the begining of the 2Oth Century. What were the three blunders?



I’d have to go with the trio of British defeats in South Africa against the Boers  the so called Black Week December 10-15, 1899 which saw them defeated at Magersfonetein, Colenso and Stormberg.

The new centurty didn’t bode well either with defeats at Spion Kopp January 19-24 and Vaal Krantz February 5, 1900.


----------



## 3rd Herd

Sorry Danjanou,
this has to do with events that occurred on the water. The whole event both naval and ground demonstrated the failure of the myth of white mans supremacy.


----------



## Danjanou

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> Sorry Danjanou,
> this has to do with events that occurred on the water. The whole event both naval and ground demonstrated the failure of the myth of white mans supremacy.



Well that could only mean the Russo Japanese War and in particular the Defeat of the Russian Army by the Japanese at the battle of Mukden Feb 1905 and the defeat of the Russian Baltic Fleet at the Battle of Tsushima Strait May 1095. This of course followed the loss of both Port Arthur to a besieging Japanese Arrmy and the destruction of the Russian Pacific Fleet in the battle of the Yellow Sea the preceeding summer.


----------



## geo

Russo japanese war 1904-1905
battle of the Tsushima Straits, where the Japanese fleet destroyed the Russian Baltic Fleet, which had sailed from the Baltic to relieve the forces at Port Arthur.
Japan was by this time financially exhausted, but its decisive naval victory at Tsushima, together with increasing internal political unrest throughout Russia, where the war had never been popular, brought the Russian government to the peace table.


----------



## 3rd Herd

Danjanou/Geo
you habe both correctly identified the right conflict. Now the headlines I am after refer to three naval actions that were deemed blunders by the general public at large. Hint maybe the Russian should have had better navigational skills. The bear became involved with a lion and a bald eagle.


----------



## Danjanou

Boy you do love the obscure. By poor navigation skills I take it you mean the Dogger Bank Incident oct 21-22, 1904 when the Russian baltic fleet enroute to the Pacific mistook British fishing trawlers and a Swedish ship walers for Japanese torpedoe boats and engaged them violating territotial waters doing so. They also mistook their own cruiser Aurora for  Japanese ship and fired on it too. Why they thought the Japanese fleet was in the North Sea I’ll never know.

Anyways the Brits almost joined the war on ther Japanese side and the RN chased the Russian fleet and temporarily detained them in Spain until it was sorted out.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogger_Bank_incident


----------



## 3rd Herd

Danjanou
Correct the Dogger Bank incident, the bottling up of the Russian fleet in Spain and the last was the temporary seizing of American steamer in Port Arthur by the Russians.Based on a political cartoon on pg 73 of Everett, Marshall, Exciting Experiences in the Japanese-Russian War, Henry Neil Publisher, 1906.

From in the inside cover leaf "Startling descriptions of the war as told by the heroes themselves, wonderful descriptions of battles, thrilling personal experiences, exciting stories of bravery, superb heroism, daring exploits, vivid stories of Japanese cunning, history of each battle told by both the Japanese and Russian Commanders." Actually quite a good read if not somewhat historical by jingo.


----------



## Danjanou

Ok I missed the steamer incident, wondering where the eagle came in?

Alright my turn, another fairly easy one (I'm lazy 8))

Where did the First Special Service Force conduct their jump training, and what was their "offical" cry as they excited the aircraft?


----------



## redleafjumper

Where, I don't recall, (Fort Bragg, perhaps...) but "geronimo" comes to mind as their official cry.


----------



## dangerboy

Fort Harrison, Montana. Do not know the cry.


----------



## Danjanou

dangerboy said:
			
		

> Fort Harrison, Montana. Do not know the cry.


Fort Harrison is correct. The initial members received an abbreviated jump school there as part of their training rather than being sent to Ft. Benning. Geronimo was not their chosen cry. I'll let it sit for a while in case anyone else gets it.


----------



## Danjanou

All right I just got jumped on in the chat room to post the answer.

Supposedly the official jump cry was "Powder River" the Powder River being  near the Ft William Henry Harrison In Montana.

Here's a follow up The FSSF trained at this camp, why would that be ironic for the Canadians?


----------



## 3rd Herd

Named after President Henry Harrison who lead some of the American forces against Canada in the war of 1812. Our native brothers do not respect him much either as he was commanding the force at the Battle of the Thames in which Tecumseh was killed. A British/Native loss.

.


----------



## geo

W.H. Harrison - POTUS # 9
In the War of 1812 Harrison won more military laurels when he was given the command of the Army in the Northwest with the rank of brigadier general. At the Battle of the Thames, north of Lake Erie, on October 5, 1813, he defeated the combined British and Indian forces, and killed Tecumseh.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/wh9.html


----------



## 3rd Herd

There is a propencity to name fighting vechicles after animals. Name three vehicles of this sort which were utilized in the north western European campaign of WW 2 by Canadian troops. Bonus points for the ones manufactured in Canada.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Off the top of my head the kangaroo and the ram. I'll think of the third when I get back.

Crocodile. Ok now I'm going.


----------



## muffin

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> There is a propencity to name fighting vechicles after animals. Name three vehicles of this sort which were utilized in the north western European campaign of WW 2 by Canadian troops. Bonus points for the ones manufactured in Canada.



The Otter Recon Vehicle 
http://www.artillery.net/english/museum.htm

The Ram and the Crocodile as Recceguy said http://www.mapleleafup.org/vehicles/cac/index.html

The Fox and the Lynx http://www.mapleleafup.org/vehicles/cmparmour/index.html

muffin


----------



## redleafjumper

Ram Kangaroo (double bonus points)
Buffalo
Otter (armoured car)
Crocodile (Churchill flamethrower tank on Mk VII chassis)
Wasp (flamethrower universal carrier) (yeah I know, it's an insect)


There are more...


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Also the Staghound & Fox


----------



## 3rd Herd

Excellent answers by all. 
Muffin nice work in using citing. Recceguy and Redleaf I suppose are using the common knowledge caveat of us dinosaurs. I was looking at in particular the Ram, Kangaroo and Grizzly and of course the Skink.
Source: Tank Production in Canada
http://www.forces.ca/dhh/downloads/ahq/ahq038.pdf

Okay someone else's turn to play Bob Barker.


----------



## redleafjumper

I should have remembered the skink!  I have a pretty good collection of WW2 micro-armour and I have long been a student of military history.  My answers are therefore usually based on all the trivia stored in the grey matter.

What were the designation and names of ships of the Tribal class in World War 2?


----------



## DG-41

The Ram chassis generated a vertitable menagerie:

- Ram tank

- Kangaroo APC

- Badger flamethrower 

- Wallaby ammo carrier

http://www.mapleleafup.org/vehicles/cac/ram.html

DG


----------



## Danjanou

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> I should have remembered the skink!  I have a pretty good collection of WW2 micro-armour and I have long been a student of military history.  My answers are therefore usually based on all the trivia stored in the grey matter.
> 
> What were the designation and names of ships of the Tribal class in World War 2?




I’m hoping you mean the Canadian ones only. Easy one for the son of a former RCN type.

G07 HMCS Athabaskan commissioned 03/02/43 Sunk 25/08/44
G63 HMCS Haida commissioned 30/08/43 paid off 11/10/63
G24 HMCS Huron commissioned 19/07/43 paid off 30/04/63
G89 HMCS Iroquois commissioned 30/1/42 paid off 24/10/62

http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/canada/ww2/tribal/

Would you also like the names and pennant numbers of the 4 completed immediately after WW2?


----------



## stukirkpatrick

> What were the designation and names of ships of the Tribal class in World War 2?



BAH beat me to it...

What is the sole surviving tribal class, and where is it located?


----------



## 3rd Herd

Haida
on the TO waterfront.


----------



## redleafjumper

Nice work Danjanou, and yes I was referring to the RCN.  

There is a large WW2 ship moored in the Pool of London as a floating museum and memorial.  What is the name and class of this vessel?


----------



## 3rd Herd

having walked her decks the same as the Haida in Toronto. I believe you are looking for a battle crusier by the name of HMS BELFAST.


----------



## mo-litia

That's the one, 3rd Herd


----------



## redleafjumper

It is indeed the HMS Belfast. 

Where was the surrender agreement to end World War 2 signed?


----------



## stukirkpatrick

USS Missouri in Tokyo Bay?


----------



## Danjanou

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> Haida
> on the TO waterfront.



Nope, they moved it to Hamilton in 2003. That was part of the deal for the need refit/repairs to be covered by the Fed Govt. You're all smart boys and girls, care to remember who was Heritage Minister then? 8)

http://hmcshaida.ca/

BTW HMS Belfast is a Cruiser (a Light Cruiser actually baseed on her main gun size) not a Battlecruiser, as our Naval brethren would point out totally different beasties

http://www.london33.com/touristinfo.php?contentid=61


----------



## geo

Sheila Copps... from steel town


----------



## redleafjumper

The HMS Belfast is indeed a light cruiser of the Southampton class.  She and her sister ship the Edinburgh were slightly better armed that the other Southamptons  having more AA armament of twelve 4" guns rather than the eight guns of the other 8 vessels of the class. Her main armament was twelve 6" guns rather than the eight of earlier light cruisers.

The Japanese surrender that ended WW2 was indeed signed on the deck of the U.S.S. Missouri in Tokyo Bay.  Kirkpatrick is correct.

For what command and action is Captain Fegen famous?


----------



## baboon6

Capt. Edward Fogerty Fegen RN commanded the armed merchant cruiser HMS _Jervis Bay_. He is famous for the action in November 1940 against the German pocket battleship _Admiral Scheer_. The converted liner was escorting a convoy of 37 ships from Halifax to the UK when it was attacked by the_ Scheer_. Captain Fegen ordered the convoy to scatter and took his unarmoured, lightly-armed ship into action against the German raider. The outcome was ineveitable- _Jervis Bay_ was sunk- but Fegen had succeeded in buying time for the merchantmen in his charge. _Scheer_ did sink 7 of them but the rest managed to escape. Captain Fegen, who was killed in the action, was posthumously awarded the Victoria Cross. 

What was the Laconia incident?


----------



## muffin

German submarine U-156 is on patrol in the South Atlantic off the bulge of West Africa midway between Liberia and Ascension Island. Peering through his periscope, Lieutenant Commander Werner Hartenstein, U-boat ace and holder of Germany's highest military honour, the Knights Cross, spots a large allied target sailing alone.  He attacks and soon his torpedoes have sent the 20,000-ton ship to the bottom of the ocean.  But Hartenstein's satisfaction at the kill soon turns to horror.  Surfacing in the hope of capturing the ship's senior officers and gleaning intelligence information, Hartenstein is appalled to see over two thousand people struggling in the water.  For the target U-156 had just sunk was the former Cunard White Star liner, the Laconia.  Unbeknownst to Hartenstein, the Laconia was carrying not only her regular crew of 136 but also 80 British women and children, 268 British soldiers, 160 Free Polish troops and 1800 Italian prisoners of war.  

http://wernerhartenstein.tripod.com/U156Laconia.htm


----------



## stukirkpatrick

Following the navy theme, what stunning practice of Canadian democracy was held in the Pacific Ocean on 7 May, 1945?


----------



## Danjanou

Kirkpatrick said:
			
		

> Following the navy theme, what stunning practice of Canadian democracy was held in the Pacific Ocean on 7 May, 1945?



The crew of the light cruiser HMCS Uganda then serving with the RN Pacific Fleet in operations against Japan held a vote sanctioned by the Cdn Govt.  asking if they were willing to serve agains the Japanese.

Much the RCN’s surprise and the RN’s disgust they voted no, and the ship was orderd home and had to be quickly replaced by another one.


----------



## redleafjumper

Some great nautical questions; the Jervis Bay answer from baboon6 is completely correct.

On August 25, 1941, the Imperial Japanese Navy ordered that a seaplane tender be converted into a light cruiser with armament of 44 torpedo tubes.
Name this ship, the British submarine that seriously damaged, but did not sink her, and how this unique vessel later ended her days.


----------



## muffin

The ship was the KITAKAMI. The KITAKAMI is hit aft by two torpedoes fired by Royal Navy Lt D. J. B. Beckley's submarine HMS TEMPLAR based at Trincomalee, Ceylon. After the war, the KITAKAMI is assigned to the Repatriation Service. She is used as a repair tender for ships on repatriation duties.

Ref: http://www.combinedfleet.com/kitakami_t.htm


----------



## redleafjumper

An "intelligent" and correct answer on the Kitikami and HMS Templar, muffin!  

Another Canadian vehicle with an animal name from the ETO is the Wolverine (where do I keep this stuff?)

What was the name of the company that manufactured the Ram tank and its turretless variants?


----------



## 3rd Herd

RedLeaf,
Ram I and II Tank Arsenal, Montreal Locomotive Works
CPR Angus Shops
Problems in Canadian Tank Production
http://www.forces.ca/dhh/downloads/ahq/ahq038.pdf

Edit spelling thanks OM


----------



## 3rd Herd

"letting the cat of of the bag" referred to what naval tradition on a ship and what colour was the bag.?


----------



## muffin

It refered to letting the cat-o-nine tails out of the Red bag on ship whenever there was trouble.

http://www.answers.com/topic/cat-o-nine-tails

The Cat O' Nine Tails is a type of multi-tailed whipping device that originated as an implement for severe physical punishment as in the British Royal Navy.


Description and History
The naval "cat", also known as the captain's daughter (in principle it was only used under his authority), was about 13 oz. in weight and composed of a baton (handle) and nine thongs.

The instrument traditionally has nine thongs as a result of the manner in which rope is braided. Thinner rope is made from three strands of yarn braided together, and thicker rope from three strands of thinner rope braided together. To make a cat o' nine tails, a rope would simply be unraveled into three small ropes, and each of those would then be unraveled in turn.

During the period of the Napoleonic wars, the naval cat's handle was made of rope about two feet long and about an inch in diameter, and was traditionally covered with red baize cloth. The "tails" or thongs were made of cord about a quarter inch in diameter and typically two feet long. When inflicting punishment for theft, which was considered a particularly offensive crime on board ship, the thongs were each knotted three times to cause additional pain. A new cat was made for each flogging by a bosun's mate and kept in a red baize bag until use. In Trafalgar time, it was made by the condemned sailor during 24 in leg irons. The nine strongest falls were kept, and extra lashes were administered if any of the selected falls were found to be sub-standard. If several dozen lashes were awarded, each could be administered by a fresh bosun's mate - a left-handed one could be included to assure extra painful crisscrossing of the wounds. One dozen was usually awarded as a highly sensitizing 'prelude' to running the gauntlet.

In some cases a cat with a wooden handle was used, and steel balls or barbs of wire were added to the tips of the thongs to maximize the potential flogging injury.

All formal punishments -ordered by captain or court martial- were given ceremoniously on deck, the crew being summoned to ‘witness punishment’ (though usually adults and boys separate) and drama enhanced by drum roll and a whole routine. Informal 'daily' canings etc. were often left unrecorded.

Contrary to popular belief, the standard cat was not the most feared implement; being made of rope, it was rather less painful than a leather whip or a wooden birch-rod, while the modes of application (number and inensity of lashes, anatomical target, baring etc.) of any implement can be more important than its intrinsic potential.

For summary punishment of Royal Navy boys, a lighter model was made, the reduced cat, also known as boy's cat, boy's pussy or just pussy, that had only five tails of smooth whip cord. If condemned by court martial, however, even boys would suffer the claw of the 'adult' cat. 
While adult sailors received their lashes on the back, they were administered to boys on the bare posterior, usually while "kissing the gunner's daughter" (i.e. bending over a gun), just as boys' lighter 'daily' chastisement was usually over their (often naked) rear-end (mainly with a cane -this could be applied to the hand, but captains generally refused such impractical disablement-, a rope's end et cetera). Bare-bottom discipline was a tradition of the English upper and middle classes, who frequented public schools, so midshipmen (trainee officers, usually from ‘good families’, getting a cheaper equivalent education) were not spared, at best sometimes allowed to receive their lashes inside a cabin. Still it is reported that the ‘infantile’ humiliation of bare stern punishment was believed essential for optimal deterrance, cocky miscreants might brave the pain of the adult cat in the macho spirit of ‘taking it like a man’, even as a ‘badge of honor’. On board training ships, where most of the crew were boys, the cat was never introduced, but their bare bottoms risked, as in other naval establishments on land, the sting of the birch, another favorite in public schools.


----------



## 3rd Herd

Correct, Muffin gets yet another gold star.


----------



## muffin

During the First World War, the Minister of Militia Defence (also an inventor) invented an item that the Department of Militia Defence would eventually buy thousands of.

What was the tool? What were its two functions? What was it's limitation?

muffin


----------



## stukirkpatrick

The MacAdam shovel, patented by Sir Howard *Sam * Hughes in the name of his secretary.

1.  A trench shovel

2.  A shield for use while firing...

It was never used because it was too heavy to be practical, and it had a big hole in the middle...  apparently they even had trouble disposing of them  ^-^


http://www.collectionscanada.ca/05/0518/05180104/051801040302_e.html


----------



## muffin

That is correct.

Also it was never allowed in the Front because it wasn't all that great as a shield.

Picture here :

http://www.collectionscanada.ca/firstworldwar/05180104/051801040301_e.html

muffin


----------



## armyvern

muffin said:
			
		

> During the First World War, the Minister of Militia Defence (also an inventor) invented an item that the Department of Militia Defence would eventually buy thousands of.
> 
> What was the tool? What were its two functions? What was it's limitation?
> 
> muffin


The shovel/shield (pictured here):

It had a hole in it!!

http://www.collectionscanada.ca/firstworldwar/05180104/051801040301_e.html


----------



## armyvern

Holy smokes!! It's busy in here!! We're all on the ball!  ;D


----------



## 3rd Herd

as Kirkpatrick says the McAdam Shovel Shield of which 22,000 were manufactured. One claim was the the handle was to short to be used as a shovel and the hole in the blade was too low to be of any use.

Canadian Soldier in the CEF:http://battlefields1418.50megs.com/canadian_soldier_1914-15.htm

CEF 1914-1919
http://www.mdn.ca/dhh/downloads/Official_Histories/CEF_e.PDF


----------



## 3rd Herd

In 1954 a French unit was wiped out by the Viet Minh 22 km outside of An Khe. What was the unit's name and who's book made the event known to the world?


----------



## armyvern

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> In 1954 a French unit was wiped out by the Viet Minh 22 km outside of An Khe. What was the unit's name and who's book made the event known to the world?



That would be the famous Groupement Mobile 100. "And We Were Soldier's Once...and Young" By Harold Moore & Joseph Galloway


http://www.themilitarybookreview.com/html/Weweresoldiers.shtml


----------



## TCBF

"Street Without Joy" by Bernard Fall?

Tom


----------



## Acorn

Kirkpatrick said:
			
		

> The MacAdam shovel, patented by Sir Howard Hughes in the name of his secretary.



Errm... Howard Hughes invented odd airplanes (Spruce Goose).

*Sam* Hughes was Canada's Minister of Militia and the inventor of the impractical instrument. He was also the proponent of a great many other silly things, but can be credited with ensuring the Canadian troops were not broken up to reinforce British fomations.


----------



## Spr.Earl

Ever see his portrait?


----------



## Spr.Earl

Bill Smye keep stum!
After their return from France in 1919, on what date did the "North British Columbians,102nd Battalion C.E. F." deposit thier Colours with in Christ Church Cathedral,Vancouver?
Home of the Seaforth and BCR Colours,along with other forogtten Unit's.
The Cathedral holds 12 Colours.

Too many hints.


----------



## redleafjumper

Sapper Earl, your hints were completely unnecessary.  Fortunately for me my library contains a pristine copy of "From B.C. to Baiseux, being the Narrative History of the  102nd Canadian Infantry Battalion" so, from page 129 of that noble tome the answer is September 22 1919.

Who was the first CO of that noble unit and who was the last CO?  (The temptation to ask a really obscure question was strong, but fortunately I managed to restrain myself.)


----------



## stukirkpatrick

> Errm... Howard Hughes invented odd airplanes (Spruce Goose).



Ahh, my mistake  :-[


----------



## larry Strong

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> In 1954 a French unit was wiped out by the Viet Minh 22 km outside of An Khe. What was the unit's name and who's book made the event known to the world?



Out of the 2 answers given, what was the books name?


----------



## Nfld Sapper

I believe Vern said it, "And We Were Soldier's Once...and Young" By Harold Moore & Joseph Galloway"

Err... after a bit more research I think the correct answer is "Street Without Joy"

http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/04summer/cassidy.pdf

Moore and Galloway only cite it in And We Were Soldier's Once...and Young


----------



## 3rd Herd

Okay sorry I did not post answer sooner, trying to pack a house and move this weekend.

The unit in question was Groupe Mobile 100 and the author in question was indeed Bernard Fall and his "Streets with Out Joy". The link Nfld_Sapper posted is an excellent article I tripped over and hence led to the question. Mr Fall before his death to a landmine wrote four illuminating works on the French-Viet Minh conflict. All are worth reading. Yes Armyvern you are correct to with the opening segment of "We were soldiers and Young Once".


----------



## armyvern

3rd,

I was torn between which book to use. "Street Without Joy," a more detailed book on the incident or "And We Were Soldier's Once...And Young." I went with the "And We Were Soldier's Once..." because, although it is not as detailed, it did top the best seller charts world-wide, has become a doc and the basis for a movie (starring Mel Gibson  ) and did indeed make the incident "known to the masses."

I am going to get my hands on a copy of "Street Without Joy" though because searching the answer for this question has piqued my interest in the incident. Thanks...excellent question.


----------



## larry Strong

armyvern said:
			
		

> I was torn between which book to use. "Street Without Joy," a more detailed book on the incident or "And We Were Soldier's Once...And Young." I went with the "And We Were Soldier's Once..." because, although it is not as detailed, it did top the best seller charts world-wide, has become a doc and the basis for a movie (starring Mel Gibson  ) and did indeed make the incident "known to the masses."
> 
> Thanks...excellent question.



"We were soldiers once" is a true story, at least the military part of it.

During late Oct 1965, the 1st Bde of the 1st US Cav Div was assisting the South Vietnamese Army lift the siege at a CIDG camp at Plei Me about 35k SW of Pleiku. An NVA Div, consisting of the 32d and 33d Regiments conducted the siege, one of the regiments, the 33d had suffered heavy casualties.
As the enemy units withdrew to the west towards the Chu Pong mountain complex, where their base camp was located and where they had not been disturbed for 11 years, they were continually harassed by units of the 1st Cav. Despite the harassment the 2 regiments did gain the sanctuary of Chu Pong Mountain and were joined by the 66th Regiment which had just arrived in South Vietnam. Within the security of their mountain fastness, operating under the control of a Field Front Headquarters (the equivalent of a US Army Div HQ) they regrouped and resupplied prior to resuming the attack on Plei Me.

On 9 November 1965 the 3d Bde of the 1st Cav assumed responsibility for the operations in the Chu Pong area-the assigned mission: find the enemy and destroy him. During the next 4 days, the Bde conducted extensive  search and destroy missions north, south and east of the camp at Plei Me with little enemy contact. Then on 14 Nov, the 1st Bn, 7th US Cav was order to conduct a helicopter assult into LZ X-Ray, landing right into the path of the 3 NVA regiments who had completed their re-org and were spilling out of the Chu Pong complex on their way to attack the camp at Plei Me.

And the rest is history...the movie is fairly accurate, a platoon did get separated, did they storm the mountain, or call for a "Broken Arrow", I don't know if that was real or artistic licence.

My reference for this is "Infantry in Vietnem" LTC Albert N Garland USA (Ret).


----------



## armchair

What was the mascot of the 8th Princess Louise New Brunswick Hussars? Its name and how did they get it from Italy to NW Europe?


----------



## redleafjumper

Since no one bit on my question regarding the first and last COs of the 102nd Canadian Infantry Btln, here's the answer:

The first CO was LCol J.W. Warden, and the last one was LCol F Lister.


----------



## armyvern

armchair said:
			
		

> What was the mascot of the 8th Princess Louise New Brunswick Hussars? Its name and how did they get it from Italy to NW Europe?



" A Royal Filly" was the original mascot of th 8th New Brunswick ( (Princess Louise's) Hussars.  She earned her "Battle Honours". She was brought back to Canada and her descendants have been our official  mascot.  All, of course named "Princess Louise".  The original horse is buried near Sussex NB with a special memorial tablet."

http://www.probus.org/m8thhssr.htm

Her travels were many:

She was wounded during fighting on the Gothic Line near Coriano, Italy on Sept. 15, 1944. Civilians in fear for their lives took shelter wherever they could, some hiding in stacks of hay or in abandoned buildings. Farm animals however, who had once grazed in pastures beneath cool shade trees, were completely vulnerable to the battle that raged around them. Dead livestock littered the countryside...The Canadians heard the cries of an injured horse and brought her to their aid station where she was saved by their intervention; quickly winning the hearts and minds of the troops... 

She was hidden in the rear of trucks for transport every time the Hussars moved. She was safely transported in a 3 ton truck with a concealed stall as the regiment made its way through France and Belgium and into Holland. 

At the conclusion of WW II, she was shipped to New York from Holland aboard the Dutch liner Leerdam. From New York she promptly made her way by train to Saint John. "The regiment stayed in Holland for quite a long while after the war waiting for transportation," says Kelly. "A good part of Canada was over there fighting, and there weren't enough ships to bring them home. 

She arrived in Saint John on March 27, 1946, amid thunderous cheers from curious onlookers. Not long after that she was reunited with the men who had not only saved her life, but had protected her during the balance of the war. 

The new mascot was welcomed by a guard of honour in Saint John, complete with a band, and a special greeting from Brigadier D.R. Agnew, the district officer of military district 7, Mayor J.D. McKenna and a parade where she marched with full regalia amid the 8th Hussars badges and flashes, 5th Cdn. Armd. Div. with maroon patch and her campaign medals: The 1939­1945 Star, The Italy Star, The France and Germany Star, Canadian Volunteer Service Medal and three Wound Stripes. 

From there she was taken to the nearby prestigious bedroom community of Rothesay where classes were interrupted as schoolchildren lined the roadways in a tumultuous greeting. 

Onward she was transported to Hampton and more accolades on the steps of the King's County Court House. There she became a naturalized Canadian and made a free woman of King's County and the Community of Hampton. She was given the "God given right to trample and eat from any and all vegetable gardens at will, or even from the supplies at Sharp's Feed Store." 

An excellent account of her travels is found here (and from where I pulled the above):

http://www.legionmagazine.com/features/memoirspilgrimages/03-09.asp


----------



## Danjanou

Ok back to obscure Canadian Army trivia ;D

Cpl R.J. Creighton of the Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment had what unfortunate distinction bestowed on him?


----------



## geo

Last Cdn man to be shot on the European front?


----------



## Danjanou

geo said:
			
		

> Last Cdn man to be shot on the European front?



Nope


----------



## armchair

Armyvern  that was great. coulld you repost it under Mascots thanks


----------



## redleafjumper

Was Creighton the first KIA in the regiment in WW2?


----------



## Danjanou

Nope but getting closer. This one is obscure, but I'm going to leave it up for a bit.


----------



## armchair

The first too become a POW??????????


----------



## larry Strong

Was he the handler of the mascot "Little Chief" who was lost during their brief foray onto the continent during the Battle of France?

http://www.theregiment.ca/hphist.html


----------



## Cloud Cover

What was the type and name given to a tank in British service  in WW2 equipped with two  twin rocket launchers and which engaged the enemy for the first time in 1945. What was the name of the unit that was first equipped with the tank?


----------



## Spr.Earl

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Sapper Earl, your hints were completely unnecessary.  Fortunately for me my library contains a pristine copy of "From B.C. to Baiseux, being the Narrative History of the  102nd Canadian Infantry Battalion" so, from page 129 of that noble tome the answer is September 22 1919.
> 
> Who was the first CO of that noble unit and who was the last CO?  (The temptation to ask a really obscure question was strong, but fortunately I managed to restrain myself.)



"Lieut.-Colonel John Weightman Warden, formerly of St. John's, N.B., but then of Vancouver, B.C., to raise a battalion for service overseas, this battalion to be raised in Northern British Columbia and to be styIed the102nd (Comox-Atlin) 0verseas Battalion"

"A newspaper story, which may or may not have some foundation in fact, states that the inauguration of the unit was the outcome of a wager laid between Mr.H.Clements, M.P. for Comox-Atlin, and one of his colleagues in the Federal House, the latter having jestingly challenged him to produce a unit from his barren constituency. If there be any truth in the yarn it certainly affords an excellent example of the adage that from small beginnings great things do grow."



"Who Comes Here?

"Who comes here?" asked Rev. Dr. Craig. upon the door being opened.

The adjutant replied: "I have been commanded by Lieut.-Col. Fred Lister, C.M.G., D.S.O., M.C., the last commanding officer of the 102nd Battalion, 'North British Columbians,' to inform the authorities of this Church that be has repaired here today upon his return from the Great War with the colours of the Battalion, and desires admission to prefer a request that they be deposited here."

Sound good?


----------



## Spr.Earl

geo said:
			
		

> Last Cdn man to be shot on the European front?



I know the first on D Day was a Spr from 6Fd Co.


----------



## armchair

The tank was the M4 Sherman and the racks and the rockets were off with allied fight?


----------



## armchair

O what day did seven men serving for Canada earn  seven Victoria Cross?


----------



## stukirkpatrick

http://www.canuck.freehosting.net/victorialist.htm

2 September, 1918 at the Drocourt-Queant Line, France

Cyrus Wesley Peck
Arthur George Knight
Claude Joseph Nunney
William Henry Metcalf
Bellenden Seymour Hutcheson
John Francis Young
Walter Rayfield


----------



## Danjanou

armchair said:
			
		

> The first too become a POW??????????



Yup, well close enough.

Cpl Creighton was one of six men left behind when the 1st Div made it's temporary foray into France after Dunkirk in 1940. One died, of his wounds and Creighton and the other five were taken Prisoners. The other four however escaped and Creighton had the dubious honour of being the longest serving POW in WW2.

OK who was awarded the first medal for gallantry in the Cdn Army during WW2?


----------



## redleafjumper

On the tank, it was a Sherman and when mounted with rockets it was called ""Calliope" . The first unit so equipped was the Coldstream Guards.


----------



## armchair

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> What was the type and name given to a tank in British service  in WW2 equipped with two  twin rocket launchers and which engaged the enemy for the first time in 1945. What was the name of the unit that was first equipped with the tank?


The Sherman V of the Coldstream Guards had field modification done in late 1944 these were 60lb taken from Typhoon fighter,also some
Sherman VC were fitted it does not seam that any units did it . This from page 131 British and American Tanks of World War II( Peter Chamberand
Chris Ellis)


----------



## armchair

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> On the tank, it was a Sherman and when mounted with rockets it was called ""Calliope" . The first unit so equipped was the Coldstream Guards.


Rocket Launcher T34 (Calliope) was a 60 tube 4-6in rocket mounted on frame above the turret     
 .page125 British and American Tanks of WWII


----------



## redleafjumper

The adjutant replied: "I have been commanded by Lieut.-Col. Fred Lister, C.M.G., D.S.O., M.C., the last commanding officer of the 102nd Battalion, 'North British Columbians,' to inform the authorities of this Church that be has repaired here today upon his return from the Great War with the colours of the Battalion, and desires admission to prefer a request that they be deposited here."

Sound good?

Sapper Earl, it would seem you have a copy of the same book that I do.  The answer is correct, if a bit late!  This next question should be a reasonably easy one:

Who is credited with being the first to broadcast "Lili Marlene" on the air so that it was heard for the first time in Britain, Canada and the United States.


----------



## armchair

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> The adjutant replied: "I have been commanded by Lieut.-Col. Fred Lister, C.M.G., D.S.O., M.C., the last commanding officer of the 102nd Battalion, 'North British Columbians,' to inform the authorities of this Church that be has repaired here today upon his return from the Great War with the colours of the Battalion, and desires admission to prefer a request that they be deposited here."
> 
> Sound good?
> 
> Sapper Earl, it would seem you have a copy of the same book that I do.  The answer is correct, if a bit late!  This next question should be a reasonably easy one:
> 
> Who is credited with being the first to broadcast "Lili Marlene" on the air so that it was heard for the first time in Britain, Canada and the United States.
> [/quote
> Was it Marlene Dictrich?????????


----------



## Danjanou

Still no response on my question on who was awarded the first gallantry medal in WW2 I see. Hey I make them hard to test your knowledge, not how fast you can type something into Google. ;D


----------



## redleafjumper

I didn't notice the gallantry medal question, but I will see what I can dig up.  Are you including MID in the award?  Did you wish to specify which of the gallantry awards you are referring to? 

As for the Marlene Dietrich answer, No.  I would re-emphaisze that I am asking for the first broadcaster, not the first performer.


----------



## Danjanou

Not including MID and no I won't mention the award that would be too easy.


----------



## redleafjumper

Okay.  Was this what you were looking for?  My run through the gazette didn't help, so I used this: http://www.airforce.forces.ca/hist/ww_2_e.asp

LAC KM Gravell
The RCAF's first George Cross was awarded in November 1941, to Leading Aircraftman (LAC) K.M. Gravell, a wireless operator-air gunner undergoing training at Calgary. LAC Gravell, despite serious injuries, which proved fatal, gallantly endeavoured to rescue his pilot from the blazing wreckage of their crashed Tiger Moth Aircraft. His gallantry and self-sacrifice were recognized by the posthumous award of the George Cross.


----------



## Danjanou

Nice try but I did say Army and it was a year and ahalf before this. ;D


----------



## Art Johnson

James what do you consider a Gallantry Award? I know of at  least two men who were awarded BEMs for their actions during or immediately after Air Raids in Britain. In one case concerning the Calafornian Pub a Plaque was put on the outside wall after the pub was rebuilt. John's brother took part in the dedication ceromonies.


----------



## armchair

I found a good web site on the song (http://ingeb./garb/marleen.html) but no answer to the question So I'm going to say
Lorne Green of the CBC was the first on the Allied news people to bring it home.


----------



## redleafjumper

Hmm, I really must start reading a bit slower; I missed the "army".    As for the response on the first allied broadcast of "Lili Marlene"
Lorne Greene of the CBC is not correct, but it is a very close answer.


----------



## armchair

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Hmm, I really must start reading a bit slower; I missed the "army".    As for the response on the first allied broadcast of "Lili Marlene"
> Lorne Greene of the CBC is not correct, but it is a very close answer.


I well give it one more try Matthew Halton of the CBC


----------



## redleafjumper

Sorry Armchair, it's not Halton either, but don't give up, you are very close.


----------



## armchair

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Sorry Armchair, it's not Halton either, but don't give up, you are very close.


CBS's Edward R Murrow on his newscast (This is London)


----------



## Danjanou

Ok at work now but I will post the answer tonight when I have access to the book I found it in. One final hint, this question is related to the earlier one I posted. 8)


----------



## redleafjumper

Armchair, you were closer with your CBC guesses (whoops, that was a big clue!).


----------



## Danjanou

Ok because no one got it. Spr F.P Hutchinson RCE was one of the six Canadian soldiers captured during the brief deployment of elements 1st Cdn Div to france in June 1940 After Dunkirk. He was one of the four who managed to later escape his captors and make his way back to England. For this was awarded the Military Medal, the first Cdn Soldier to be decorated in WW2.


----------



## armchair

armchair said:
			
		

> CBS's Edward R Murrow on his newscast (This is London)


Well I'm at a loss.Can't find an answer


----------



## redleafjumper

Okay Armchair, since you are the only one that bit, here's the answer.  CBC correspondent Peter Stursberg was the first to broadcast "Lili Marlene" or as the name was later modified in Germany " Lied eines jungen Wactpostens" (The song of the Young Guard).  He recorded the song in Ionia on the Straits of Messina, with the help of a local municipal orchestra.  He notes in his book "The Sound of War, Memoirs of a CBC Correspondent" that he paid about 1 pound sterling for the performance.  The broadcast was quite famous at the time and generated some controversy as it was regarded as an "enemy" song.

As a follow-up question, perhaps easier than the Stursberg one, who was the German composer of "Lili Marlene"?


----------



## Art Johnson

This is an interesting subject and certainly points out the difficulty of  establishing who was first. The BEM can be awarded for gallantry and in the instance of John Garvie.
there was certainly gallantry involves in his action of 12 Oct 1940.

John Gibb of the 48th performed a similar act of gallantry when he held up the floor of  a bombed out pub, “The Californian“, for three hours to allow rescuers to save a woman’s life.

Unfortunately Sapper Hutchinson’s Citation does not provide too much information to establish a date for his action.

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=collections/cmdp/mainmenu/group01/mbe

Private John Garvie was awarded the British Empire Medal for his action in using his steel helmet as a shovel to dig out survivors of a bombing raid in London. The authorities said that without his help there would have been more deaths at the site. His citation reads in part:

ON THE NIGHT OF 12 OCTOBER, 1940, DURING AN INTENSE AIR RAID PRIVATE GARVIE, 48th HIGHLANDERS OF CANADA WHO A SHORT TIME PREVIOUSLY HAD ASSISTED IN EXTRICATING PERSONS ENTRAPPED IN A BOMBED HOUSE, WAS CALLED UPON BY THE CIVIL AUTHORITIES TO FURTHER ASSIST IN RESCUING CIVILIANS WHO WERE BURIED BENEATH THE WRECKAGE OF ANOTHER BOMBED HOUSE. NOT WITHSTANDING THE CONTINUANCE OF THE RAID, LACK OF LIGHTS, A LEAKAGE OF DOMESTIC GAS, DANGER DUE TO THE POSSIBILITY OF COLLAPSE OF AN ADJOINING BUILDING AND COMPLETE LACK OF TOOLS PRIVATE GARVIE WITH SOME OTHERS WORKED FOR SEVERAL HOURS SHOVELLING DEBRIS WITH HIS STEEL HELMET AND REMOVING FALLEN TIMBERS. FINALLY THEY SUCCEEDED IN RESCUING ALIVE TWO OF THE FIVE PERSONS ENTOMBED IN THE WRECKAGE.

HUTCHINSON, Fraser Peter, Sapper (F.91544) - Military Medal - Engineers (1 Field Company, a Canadian Infantry Division)- awarded as per London Gazette dated 12 February 1942; confirmed in CARO/3580 dated 2 September 1943. A plasterer before the war, he had served in the Non-Permanent Active Militia from 1933 to 1939 (88th Battery, RCA). He enlisted in the Active Force at Halifax, 17 November 1939. His wife was living in Port Wallis, Nova Scotia; awarded "in recognition of distinguished services in the field".


----------



## muffin

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> As a follow-up question, perhaps easier than the Stursberg one, who was the German composer of "Lili Marlene"?



Norbert Schultze - 

see ref:

http://www.nazi-lauck-nsdapao.com/eng-uk-006.htm


----------



## Danjanou

Good point Art. the source I found this in is also vague, but I presume it was sometime in the summer of 1940 that he made his escape.

Ok your turn, lets see if you can stump the rest of us.


----------



## armchair

muffin said:
			
		

> Norbert Schultze -
> 
> see ref:
> 
> http://www.nazi-lauck-nsdapao.com/eng-uk-006.htm
> [/quote
> Nans Leip wrote the poem The Song of a Young Sentry some time in 1915 before he went to the Russian front
> Was first published in a collection of his poetry in 1937
> Norbert Schultze set it to music in 1938. Lale Andersen version sold around 700 copies
> Joseph Goebbels banned the song in Germany (for its portentous character)
> Lt.Karl-Hieins Reintgen diretor of Radio Belgrade aired it for a friend in the Africa Corps on 18 Aug 1941
> Gen. Rommel liked the song asked Radio Belgrage to incorporate the song in their Broadcast
> The song played at 9:55 just before sign-off.


----------



## redleafjumper

Muffin and Armchair, good answers on the composer and history of the tune "Lili Marlene".

Who was the first African-American General in the US Army?  (Bonus - Who was the first African-American General in the USAF?)


----------



## Jantor

I'll try ;D

Gen. Benjimin O. Davis?


----------



## redleafjumper

Jantor is correct - Benjamin Oliver Davis, 1877 - 1970, was the first African - American US Army General.  He was a 1LT of volunteers in the Spanish American War.  After mustering out in 1899, he joined the regular Army as a private soldier and rose to the rank of Major in WW 1.
He became a Colonel in 1930 and served as a General from 1940 - 1948.  This information is from Chambers Biographical Dictionary.

So who was the first African-American USAF General Officer?


----------



## Jantor

Me again :

His son, Gen. Benjamin O. Davis Jr.

http://www.fatherryan.org/blackmilitary/davis_jr.htm


----------



## redleafjumper

Well done Jantor, I admit it was a bit of a trick question!  Benjamin Oliver Davis Jr.  was the first African American General of the USAF.


----------



## Jantor

My turn?

Born in Quebec, he moved to the U.S. with his folks at age ten, Quit school at 12 and apprenticed as a machinist eventually ending up at a Springfield Armouries. He was credited with developing a rather well known rifle.

Who is he?


----------



## deh

John Garand

http://www.memorableplaces.com/m1garand/index.html

if its my turn who was the first Canadian double recipient of the Congressional Medal of Honor?


----------



## Jantor

I'm on a roll ;D

Robert Sweeney, USN. Won it twice, 1881 and 1883. He was from Montreal

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/07/01/canadians-usmedal050701.html


----------



## armchair

Who was the Canadian who sent a report to Combined Operations(WWII)  on how to penetrate harbor defenses? 
Ended up being in command of a section of frogmen on what river crossing?


----------



## armchair

armchair said:
			
		

> Who was the Canadian who sent a report to Combined Operations(WWII)  on how to penetrate harbor defenses?
> Ended up being in command of a section of frogmen on what river crossing?


Sud-Lt. Bruce Wright of Frederton.Champion Swimmer at University of New Brunswick.
Wrote report on harbor penetration in 1941 it went " thought channels"
In 1941 was told report to Combined Operations to raise, train, and lead a unit of operational swimmers.
They were use by the British Fourteenth Army in Burma.Working closely with the Special Boat Section,
they mark channels and landing approaches for the 14th Army crossing of the Irrawaddy River
page 592 The Canadians at War Vol 2 C/W 1969 Published by Readers Digest


----------



## armchair

Before WWII it was considered that Canadian industry did not lend itself to tank production.
During the war Canada manufacture a number tanks and self-propelled guns.
Most famous of these was the Ram mark I+II's The Ram was never to see combat as a battle tank.
What variants of the Ram did see serve in Combat?
Name some of the others tanks manufactured in Canada?


----------



## redleafjumper

Let's see,

The Ram variants that saw combat: OP, Kangaroo, Wasp, and gun tower.
Other tanks made in Canada:
The Valentine, Sexton (SP Gun), Sherman Grizzly, (might be some other limited production ones like the Skink)


(edited to fix typo)


----------



## armchair

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Let's see,
> 
> The Ram variants that saw combat: OP, Kangaroo, Wasp, and gun tower.
> Other tanks made in Canada:
> The Valentine, Sexton (SP Gun), Sherman Grizzly, (might be some other limited production ones like the Skink)
> 
> 
> (edited to fix typo)
> [/quote
> Great answer it looks like you got all of them.


----------



## redleafjumper

What is an M-13 launcher?  What were two commonly used names for this device?


----------



## armchair

Who was the first Canadian to command the Canadian Corps (WWI)?
What date did he take command?
Were was his first victory?


----------



## redleafjumper

General Alderson was the first commander (British) then, Lt. Gen Sir Julian Byng (British), and then LGen Sir Arthur Currie (Cdn) took command on June 23, 1917.  His first victory was  Passchendaele, October 1917.

Have you had a go at my previous question?


----------



## armchair

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> What is an M-13 launcher?  What were two commonly used names for this device?


It is a Soviet rocket system first used July of 1941. Were either mounted on trucks or one system fire from the ground
The Soviet troops had a number of names for it(ar-esses RS this was an Russian acronym for Rocket Launch System)
BM-13 Katyusha  was know as Kate or Little Kate this was diminutive Katyusha


----------



## armchair

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> General Alderson was the first commander (British) then, Lt. Gen Sir Julian Byng (British), and then LGen Sir Arthur Currie (Cdn) took command on June 23, 1917.  His first victory was  Passchendaele, October 1917.
> 
> Have you had a go at my previous question?
> [/quote
> Yes I have
> Passchechendeale was his first campaign victory I was thinking more of a battle


----------



## redleafjumper

... and it was also called "stalinorgel" or Stalin's Organ.

What unit made up the majority of volunteers for the "Yukon Field Force"?  How many troops made up that force and who commanded it?

armchair, I took your question to mean his first Corps Commander campaign victory.  He also did pretty well in the battle to keep the corps together.


----------



## armchair

I should have been a little more clear on the question. I was thinking the battle for Hill 70
The Yukon Field Force was made up 12 officer and 191 men of the Canadian Militia.Most came from Royal Canadian Regiment.
The left Vancouver May 6 1898 they took all Canadian route to the Yukon.They brought with two Maxim Machine Guns


----------



## redleafjumper

Your answer is close, but not correct regarding the Yukon Field Force.  According to George Stanley in Canada's Soldiers, the force was made up of 203 volunteers commanded by LCol T.D.B. Evans.  One hundred thirty-three of the members were from the Royal Regiment of Canada (RRC, not the RCR).

What was the purpose of the Yukon Field Force?


----------



## Edward Campbell

I think Stanley (or his editor) made a minor SD (abbreviation) error.

I'm in the wrong place but someone with a copy Vol 1 of the *The* History of *The* RCR or the RCD History can (hopefully) verify that the Yukon Field Force was drawn from the ranks of the _permanent militia_ - mostly from The RCR (then still, actually, The Royal Canadian Regiment of Infantry, I think) but with detachments from The RCD and RCA.


----------



## Old Sweat

Edward,

You are absolutely correct about the composition of the Yukon Field Force. The mounting and deployment of the force was quite an accomplishment for the tiny permanent force; that it worked at all is a tribute to the professionalism of the army despite the political meedling and financial neglect that plagued military life in Canada a century ago.


----------



## redleafjumper

Edward and Old Sweat, your comments do make much more sense than what is written in Stanley's book. I will investigate some other sources on this issue.  If in error, then armchair's answer is even closer to correct than it was.


----------



## Edward Campbell

This is from DND’s archives at: http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/community/mapleleaf/html_files/html_view_e.asp?page=Vol4_09____EntreNous_14-15 



> *March 21 1898:* In Ottawa, the Government of Canada authorizes the Yukon Field Force, a 203-man contingent selected from The Royal Canadian Regiment, The Royal Canadian Artillery and The Royal Canadian Dragoons, and commanded by Lieutenant-Colonel T.D.B. Evans of the Dragoons, a former RCR officer. The force will be accompanied by five women-four nurses and reporter Faith Fenton of the Toronto Globe. The mission is to assert Canadian sovereignty and help the North West Mounted Police keep order in the gold fields.
> 
> They face a real threat. The Canada-Alaska boundary is still not completely explored, let alone surveyed, mapped or marked. What's more, the territory is full of lawless, gun-toting, gold-fevered "foreigners"-most of them Americans.
> 
> The Klondike Gold Rush is going full blast, and people are pouring into the Yukon Territory. Most come by the White and Chilkoot passes from Alaska, but a few take the terrible "all-Canadian" route, by boat up the Stikine River to Glenora and then on foot for 230 km through forest and swamp to Teslin Lake, the headwaters of a Yukon River tributary, where they can get another boat to Dawson. For political reasons, the Yukon Field Force takes the all-Canadian route.
> 
> The Yukon Field Force takes two weeks to travel from Ottawa to Glenora, where they prepare for the trek to Teslin Lake. On June 9, the first trail parties head out from Glenora. Each mule carries 200 pounds and each man carries 50 pounds.
> 
> The terrain is a wilderness of boulders, huge fallen trees and waist-deep swamps. It's very hot, and everyone is tormented by huge, blood-thirsty mosquitoes. The food is dreadful-hardtack, rancid strong bacon and black tea. The march takes each party about six weeks, and the last soldiers arrive at Fort Selkirk by boat from Teslin Lake on September 11, 1898.
> 
> The gold rush is almost over when they arrive. Half the contingent goes home late in the summer of 1899, and the rest follow a year later.



And I found this photo, too:


----------



## Danjanou

Edward Campbell said:
			
		

> And I found this photo, too:



Is that Sapper Earl standing beside you there Edward? ;D


----------



## redleafjumper

Good work Edward, and thanks.  I just located that site myself and you beat me to posting it.  The uniforms are clearly RCR in that and in other pictures out there.  The Royal Canadian Regiment is correct, and there is an error in Stanley's classic work Canada's Soldiers.

And yes, your post also answers the part of the question regarding the purpose of the force.  

Here is a new question:  What was the first submachinegun ever made, and what Canadian company, among others, made them?


----------



## armchair

Villar Perosa Gun


Considered the world's first genuine sub-machine gun, the Villar Perosa (or VP) was introduced in the Italian army in 1915.

Used as an infantry weapon, the Villar Perosa utilised a nickel and steel twin-barrel mechanism, each of which fired a 25-round box magazine of 9mm Glisenti pistol ammunition - essentially a low powered 9mm Parabellum cartridge.

A rapid-firing device - it could fire 300 rounds per minute per barrel, requiring that it be recharged up to twelve times per minute - it was nevertheless chiefly used in support positions until 1918, when a modified Beretta version of the weapon was unveiled in the autumn.

It was thereafter deployed as an infantry assault weapon, although there is some dispute regarding the actual extent of its use.  Its theoretical range was 800 metres although in practice it was around 100 metres - which rendered


----------



## armchair

The Yukon Field Force was made up 12 officer and 191 men of the Canadian Militia.Most came from Royal Canadian Regiment.
The left Vancouver May 6 1898 they took all Canadian route to the Yukon.They brought with two Maxim Machine Guns
[/quote
This information of the number of officers and men was found on the RCR's website.They said they were called (Royal Canadian Regiment of the Infantry) at that time 
.I found the story of the Maxim's on the Canadian War Museum's Website.


----------



## redleafjumper

Armchair, good answer on the first part of the Villar Perosa question, and a good answer on the Yukon Field Force.

But what about the Canadian connection to the Italian SMG?

(fixed typo)


----------



## armyvern

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> But what about the Canadian connection to the Italian SMG?



"In 1916, the General Canadian Electric Company Limited, of Toronto, Canada, initiated the limited manufacture of these arms by order of the Italian government. There "Revelli Automatic Machine Gun" was designated."

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.rs.ejercito.mil.ar/Contenido/Nro655/TD/armasanti.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3DVillar%2BPerosa%2BGun%2BCanadian%2Bcompany%26start%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN


----------



## redleafjumper

Very good Army Vern!  That's the rest of the story!  Here's a toughy:

Who was Cunningham's PSVO in the Mediterranean Theatre from '42-43?


----------



## armyvern

Dwight D Eisenhower? I don't have a clue what PSVO means acronymicly speaking. I think I have just invented a new word.

If it is Plans/Staff or some-such then I will go with this as my answer:

Admiral Sir Manley Power

http://janus.lib.cam.ac.uk/db/node.xsp?id=EAD%2FGBR%2F0014%2FMANP

Other than that, I am befuddled!!  ???


----------



## redleafjumper

The acronym stands for Principal Salvage Officer.  Learning the new acronyms is one of the main tasks of anyone who has been out for a while, this is merely an old one and it was usually abbreviated as PSO.  So who was it?


(correction of word error)


----------



## redleafjumper

Perhaps a hint is in order.  This PSVO person was famous for his work in submarine salvage (among other things) and his nickname included a rank which at the end of his career he had left long behind


----------



## armyvern

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> The acronym stands for Principal Salvage Officer.  Learning the new acronyms is one of the main tasks of anyone who has been out for a while, this is merely an old one and it was usually abbreviated as PSO.  So who was it?
> (correction of word error)


Well this gave it straight away. (PSO now = Personnel Selection Officer..and PVSO wouldn't google for me...I tried!!   )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Ellsberg

"Ellsberg was commissioned in the Navy in 1914 and served on active duty until 1926. He became an expert in undersea salvage and rescue. In 1925, he raised the Navy submarine, S-51. For his efforts he was promoted to the rank of commander by act of Congress and given the distinguished service medal by the Navy Department. Since he has popularly been known as "Commander Ellsberg." Ellsberg described the raising of the S-51 in On the Bottom."

"From Massawa, Ellsberg went to North Africa to become Principal Salvage Officer in that theater. He worked under Admiral Andrew Cunningham, the British officer commanding naval forces in the area. Ellsberg's activities were detailed in No Banners, No Bugles.Ellsberg, worn out from constant work, was ordered home in early 1943 to recuperate. After a time inspecting ship construction activities, Ellsberg was sent to England in time for the Normandy Invasion. He remained on active duty after World War II rising to the rank of rear admiral before retiring in 1951."


----------



## armchair

During WWII Canada use the Bren as there main light machine gun US Army used The BAR or Browning M1917 or one of its marks
What other noted light machine gun was used by both Canada and the US troops?


----------



## George Wallace

The Johnson.  It was a USMC weapon, that was also used by the FSSF.


http://www.olive-drab.com/od_other_firearms_mg_m1941m1944johnson.php3


----------



## George Wallace

> FSSF (First Special Service Force)
> While most of the M1941 Johnson Light Machine Guns in U.S. military service were fielded by the Marine Corps, a limited number were procured by one of the most elite, and most unusual, U.S. Army units of the Second World War. The First Special Service Force (FSSF) was a joint American-Canadian outfit that was formed in early 1942 for the purpose of conducting winter warfare operations in German-occupied Scandinavia. The unit received intensive training in airborne operations, winter combat (including fighting as ski troops) and demolition. The FSSF was able to obtain several items of non-standard weaponry, including the unique V-42 stiletto.
> 
> The M1941 Johnson Light Machine Gun was viewed by the First Special Service Force as an ideal arm for its purposes as outlined in a "Confidential Memo" dated February 15, 1943, from Lt. Col. O.J. Baldwin, executive officer of the FSSF to Asst. Chief of Staff, G-4 which, in part, stated:
> 
> Subject: Johnson Light Machine Gun
> The 1st Special Service Force has a serious need for a lightweight machine rifle, of characteristics similar to those of the Browning Automatic Rifle, that can be carried with parachute troops in parachute operations. The weapon most nearly meeting these special qualifications is the Johnson Light Machine Gun equipped with bipod mount. This gun is now a standard item for Marine paratroopers.
> It is requested, therefore, that action be taken to secure for the 1st Special Service Force, by transfer from the Marine Corps, 125 Johnson Light Machine Guns, complete with accessories, spare parts, and instruction manuals, as are now furnished to the Marine Corps.
> The advantages of the Johnson Light Machine Gun, which are the basis for this request, are:
> The weight with full magazine is approximately 14 lbs. in contrast to approximately 231bs. for the Browning Automatic Rifle.
> The gun can be broken down into three pieces of a maximum length of approximately 22". "This permits it to be parachuted in the same manner as the M-1 rifle. The lightness in weight and ease of assembly (from 20 to 50 seconds) makes it an extremely valuable parachutist weapon.
> The Marine Corps approved the request for the 125 Johnson Light Machine Guns on April 20, 1943, and they were delivered to the First Special Service Force on June 29, 1943, with Johnson Automatics, Inc., handling the transfer from the Netherlands Purchasing Commission to the FSSF.
> 
> Before the First Special Service Force was fully trained and ready for deployment, the Scandinavian operation was cancelled, and the unit was eventually deployed to Italy where it played a key role in the pivotal Anzio campaign. The Forcemen (as they called themselves), and their Johnson M1941 Light Machine Guns, were credited with helping to break out of the Anzio beachhead and securing the hard-won victory. The FSSF troops were every bit as enamored with the Johnson light machine gun as were the Marine paratroopers and Raiders who used them in the Pacific. It is reported that many of the Forcemen were reluctant to turn in their Johnson light machine guns when the First Special Service Force was deactivated in the South of France in early 1945.



http://www.jcs-group.com/military/navy_marine/1941johnson.html


----------



## armchair

armchair said:
			
		

> During WWII Canada use the Bren as there main light machine gun US Army used The BAR or Browning M1917 or one of its marks
> What other noted light machine gun was used by both Canada and the US troops?


Great now can you give its name in a later war what army used it?


----------



## George Wallace

Are you looking for the Communist Chinese in Korea, or Castro Rebels at the Bay of Pigs?

Did you want what weapons may have characteristics of it in their design today?



> The conclusion of the Second World War spelled an end to active combat use of the M1941 Johnson Light Machine Guns by the American military. A few turned up in the hands of the Chinese Communists during the Korean War, and some were used by Castro's rebels in Cuba in the late 1950s. Melvin M. Johnson, Jr., developed improved versions of his light machine gun design, but the subsequent guns were only manufactured in limited prototype numbers.
> The M1941 Johnson Light Machine Gun incorporated several design features which are still used on front line military arms today. Although its use was relatively limited, the Johnson was clearly ahead of its time in many ways, and it gained an enviable reputation with the majority of its users. If the Johnson Light Machine Gun had been developed as fully as the BAR and standardized by the U.S. Army and the U.S. Maxine Corps, it would have played a much larger role in World War II and would undoubtedly be viewed today as one of the best Allied infantry arms of the war. Instead, the M1941 Johnson Light Machine Gun, along with its M1941 Johnson semi-automatic rifle counterpart, is but a footnote to U.S. ordnance history.
> Surviving examples of the former that have been properly registered with the BATFE, and eligible for civilian ownership, are quite rare and are among the most valuable, and elusive, fully automatic arms on the market today. The M1941 Johnson Light Machine Gun remains one of the least known, but one of the most innovative and effective, American arms of the Second World War.
> http://www.jcs-group.com/military/navy_marine/1941johnson.html
> 
> 
> 
> Mel Johnson continued to develop small arms. His most successful venture was working with ArmaLite and Colt's Manufacturing Company promoting their AR-15 rifle. This rifle used Johnson's patents for its bolt and bolt carrier. The M1941 bolt and bolt cam system is still manufactured today prolifically in the M16 rifle and all its various subvariations.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson_M1941_Rifle


----------



## armchair

The Israeli Army used the Johnson Light Machine Gun under the name Dror in small Numbers in the first Arad Israeli warin 1948
The Israeli all manufactured it in small Numbers.


----------



## redleafjumper

Armyvern's answer on Rear Admiral Ellsberg is correct.  This officer had an amazing career and played a significant part in opening up African ports.  He was also a gifted and prolific writer.  His exploits in his role as PSVO for Admiral Cunningham are recounted in his book "No Banners, No Bugles".  Cool question on the Johnson LMG - I do so like the firearm questions.

Let's go back a little further in history for a change:

When silver was discovered in Maroneia in the mining district of Laurion, it was first proposed to divide the silver bullion amongst the citizens of Athens.  A gifted speaker persuaded the Assembly that the money should be spent in another way.  Who was that speaker and what was his proposal that the Assembly of Athens adopted?


----------



## redleafjumper

Gee gang, it is a relatively well-known decision that had tremendous historical significance.  I had hoped that someone would nibble at this question about warfare and ancient Athens.  If you need more of a hint, I will give you the source:  Herodotus (and also mentioned by Thucydides)

I have been trying to craft my questions to make them a little more challenging than a simple google search; enjoy!



(added Thucydides to avoid the expected "father of history, father of lies" comments!)


----------



## armchair

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Armyvern's answer on Rear Admiral Ellsberg is correct.  This officer had an amazing career and played a significant part in opening up African ports.  He was also a gifted and prolific writer.  His exploits in his role as PSVO for Admiral Cunningham are recounted in his book "No Banners, No Bugles".  Cool question on the Johnson LMG - I do so like the firearm questions.
> 
> Let's go back a little further in history for a change:
> 
> When silver was discovered in Maroneia in the mining district of Laurion, it was first proposed to divide the silver bullion amongst the citizens of Athens.  A gifted speaker persuaded the Assembly that the money should be spent in another way.  Who was that speaker and what was his proposal that the Assembly of Athens adopted?
> [/quote
> When a rich new vain of silver was discover in the fifth century B.C. Themistokles (ca.525 460 B.C.) persuaded the Assembly to use the surplus
> to build some were between 70 to 200 triremes (type of Greek ship) with the Athenians used in there wars with the Persian


----------



## armchair

During WWII sub-machine guns came into were own. At the start of the the British needs were so great they decided that they
would copy one instead of using one of there own design Who did they copy it from and its name it was known by?Most were
used by with service?


----------



## redleafjumper

The Lanchester smg was a close copy of the German MP 28/II.  Most Lanchesters went into navy service.  

Armchair is correct. Encouraged by Themosticles, the Athenians bought triremes which they used to great effect in becoming masters of the Aegean Sea.  This was an important decision which directly contributed to the victory of the Greeks over the Persians.

In WW2 Germany lost 9 ships variously classed as battleships or battlecruisers.  What were the names of these ships and how were they lost?


----------



## 3rd Herd

RedLeaf:
1)Bismarck-sunk English Channel 1941
2)Tirpitz-sunk Norway 1944
3)Graf Spee-scuttled by Commander at the River Plate 1939
4)Admarial Scheer-sunk Baltic Sea
5) Gneisenau-scuttled March 1945
6)Scharnhorst-sunk 1943 off  North Cape 
7)Deutschland(Lutzow)-sunk Baltic Sea 
8)Schleswig-Holstein-scuttled 1945
9)???????????????????
Cheers


----------



## Danjanou

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> RedLeaf:
> 1)Bismarck-sunk English Channel 1941
> 2)Tirpitz-sunk Norway 1944
> 3)Graf Spee-scuttled by Commander at the River Plate 1939
> 4)Admarial Scheer-sunk Baltic Sea
> 5) Gneisenau-scuttled March 1945
> 6)Scharnhorst-sunk 1943 off  North Cape
> 7)Deutschland(Lutzow)-sunk Baltic Sea
> 8)Schleswig-Holstein-scuttled 1945
> 9)???????????????????
> Cheers



The ninth would have been the old Battleship Schlesien Launched: 28.05.1906 Commissioned: 05.05.1908
 blown up 04.05.1945 (Swinemünde)


----------



## redleafjumper

Good work 3rd Herd and Danjanou.  Here are some more details about how the German battleships met their ends:

Graf Spee – Cruiser; gunfire damage leading to her being scuttled

Bismarck – Battleships, destroyers, aircraft; gunfire and torpedoes

Scharnhorst – Battleship, cruisers, destroyers; gunfire and torpedoes

Tirpitz – Aircraft; five bombs

Schleswig-Holstein – Scuttled after bombing

Gneisenau – Scuttled after mining and bombing

Schliesen – Scuttled after mining and bombing

Lutzow – Scuttled after bombing

Scheer – Aircraft; five bombs

Source:  Westwood, J.N. _Fighting Ships of World War II_.  Chicago, Ill.  Follett Publishing 1975.


What sort of a ship was HMS Dido?


----------



## Jantor

Hi

The last one was a Leander class frigate but there were a number of ships with that name

http://www.hms-dido.com/hms_dido.htm


----------



## redleafjumper

Mea culpa!  The Dido I am looking for is a WW2 cruiser - what was its special role (armament)?


----------



## geo

ON May 8, 1945, the British cruiser HMS Dido was en route to Copenhagen in Denmark.
At one point during the journey, the ship was approached by a lone German aircraft.
The Dido's guns fired one shot and the plane flew away - it was VE day and that was the last shot fired in the Second World War in Europe.


The first Dido was a 28-gun sixth-rate launched in 1784 and sold 1817. 
The second Dido was an 18-gun corvette launched in 1836, used as a coal hulk after 1860, and sold 1903. 
The third Dido was to be a wooden screw-propelled corvette. Laid down 14 January 1861, construction was cancelled 12 December 1863. 
The fourth Dido was a wooden screw corvette launched in 1869, hulked 1886, renamed Actaeon in 1906 and sold 1922. 
The fifth Dido was a 2nd class cruiser launched in 1896, used as a depot ship after 1913 and sold 1926. 
The sixth Dido, a light cruiser, was launched on July 18 1939. The ship took part in the evacuation of troops and defense of Crete, where she was damaged on B gun, resulting in the deaths of 46 men. Dido also took part in the Second Battle of Sirte during 1942, sinking three supply ships off North Africa, and in the Anzio landings and the invasion of Southern France in August 1944. The ship was broken up after 1958. 
The seventh Dido (F104) was a Leander-class frigate laid down in 1959 and launched in 1961 at Yarrow, Scotstoun. After being sold to the Royal New Zealand Navy in 1980 the ship was renamed HMNZS Southland.


http://www.hms-dido.com/hms_dido.htm


----------



## armchair

HMS DIDO
Original 
8x5.25 
1x4.0
2x.5 in MG quadruple guns
3x2 pdr pom-poms quad guns
2x21in torpedos
1941-1943
10x5.25
5x20mm single guns
3x2pdr pom-poms
2x21in torpedos
1943-1945
10x5.25
2x20mm single guns
4x20 dual guns
3x2pdr pom-poms
2x21in torpedos


----------



## larry Strong

An AA Lt Cruiser

HMS Dido:

Launched (type I):   1939
Displacement:         6,970 tons 
Armament:             8x 133mm/5.25" DP, 8 or 12x 2 pdr AA, 12x 20mm AA, 6x 533/21" torpedo tubes.

The dual purpose turrets  were originally designed as secondary armament for the "King George V" class battleships.

The Complete Encyclopedia of Weapons of WW ll  Chris Bishop


----------



## redleafjumper

Larry, Geo and Armchair that was the very historic HMS Dido I was looking for.


What Waterloo veteran gave the ambiguous order that led to the Charge of the Light Brigade at the Battle of Balaclava?


----------



## Jantor

Hi,

some pictures of HMS Dido

http://www.navyphotos.co.uk/dido%20bat.htm


----------



## armchair

Professor Rausenberger designed two famous guns Gamma+ Big Bertha.
What other famous gun did he design tell a little about it?


----------



## redleafjumper

He also designed this one.  Information is taken from: http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Paris%20Cannon 

The Paris Gun was the name of a set of artillery pieces with which the Germans bombarded Paris during World War I. This oversized railway gun was used from March to August 1918. It was the largest gun used during the war, and is considered to be a supergun. 

Also called the "Kaiser Wilhelm Geschütz" (Kaiser Wilhelm Gun), it is often confused with Big Bertha, the howitzer used by the Germans against the Liège forts in 1914, and indeed the French called it by this name as well. It is also confused with the smaller "Lange Max" (Long Max) cannons from which it was derived. Although the famous Krupp-family artillery makers produced all these guns, the resemblance ended there. 

As a military weapon the gun was not a great success: the payload was minuscule, the barrel had to be regularly replaced, and the accuracy was only good enough for city-sized targets. However, the German objective was to build a psychological weapon to attack the morale of the Parisians; not to destroy the city itself. 

It was later one of the inspirations of Gerald Bull in his work on advanced artillery; he researched the history of the Paris Gun and published an extensive book about it. Description The Paris Gun was a weapon like no other, but its exact capabilities are not known, and all figures available are approximate. This is due to the weapon's apparent total destruction by the Germans in the face of the Allied offensive. Figures stated for the weapon's size, range and performance may vary widely depending on the source - not even the number of shells fired is certain. 

It was capable of hurling a 94-kg shell to a range of 130 km and a maximum altitude of 40 km - the greatest height reached by a human-made projectile until the first successful V-2 flight test in October 1942. 

At the start of its 170-second trajectory, each shell from the Paris Gun reached a speed of 1,600 m/s (almost five times the speed of sound). 

The gun itself, which weighed 256 tons and was mounted on rails, had a 28-m-long, 210-mm-caliber rifled barrel with a 6-m-long smoothbore extension. 

Originally conceived as a naval weapon, the gun was manned by a crew of 80 Kriegsmarine sailors under the command of an admiral, and was surrounded by several batteries of standard army artillery to create a "noise-screen" around the big gun so that it could not be located by French and British spotters. The projectile reached a maximum height of almost 40km, making it the first man-made object ever to reach the altitude of the stratosphere, thus virtually eliminating drag from air resistance, allowing the shell to achieve a phenomenal range of over 80 miles. Not until liquid-fuel ballistic missiles were developed 30 years later was this accomplishment equaled and finally surpassed. The shells were propelled at such high velocity that each successive shot wore away a considerable amount of steel from the rifle bore, and each shell was sequentially numbered according to its increasing diameter, and had to be fired in numeric order lest the projectile lodge in the bore and the gun explode. After 65 shells had been fired, each of progressively larger caliber to allow for wear, the barrel was rebored to a caliber of 240 mm. 

The Paris Gun was the largest gun ever built for its time, only to be surpassed in World War II by machines such as the Schwerer Gustav or the V-3 cannon. Use in World War I The gun was fired from the forest of Coucy and the first shell landed at 7.18 a.m. on March 21, 1918. Only when sufficient shell fragments had been collected was it realized that the explosion had come from a shell. 

The Paris gun was used to shell Paris at a range of 75 miles. The distance was so far that the Coriolis effect - the rotation of the earth - was substantial enough to affect trajectory calculations. The gun was fired at an azimuth of 232 degrees (west-southwest) from Crépy-en Laon, which was at a latitude of 49.5 degrees North. The gunners had to account for the fact that the projectiles landed 393 meters short and 1343 meters to the side of where it would have hit if there was no Coriolis effect. 

A total of 320-367 shells were fired, killing 250 people and wounding 620, as well as causing considerable damage to property. 

The gun was taken back to Germany in August 1918 as Allied advances threatened its security. The gun was never seen by the Allies; towards the end of the war it was completely destroyed by the Germans. One spare mounting was captured by American troops near Chateau-Thierry, but no gun was ever found. 


Gerald Bull is mentioned above as a researcher of artillery.  What artillery system did he design and sell to South Africa?  What other significant artillery projects was he involved in and how did his work on one of them lead to his untimely demise?

(edited to add question)


----------



## redleafjumper

Oops! I leapfrogged myself - I asked a question about the order to charge at Balaclava and then another about Gerald Bull.
Sorry about that; I better get a grip on myself or we'll have questions everywhere and few answers!


----------



## larry Strong

Right off the top of my head, he made what the South Africans call the G4 155mm Howitzer. and he was working on a "Super gun" for "ole Sodamn Insane" when the Mossad allegedly terminated him in France, IIRC


----------



## redleafjumper

That's a nice concise answer on Mr. Bull from Larry.

Any takers on the order to charge at Balaclava?


----------



## geo

At Raglan’s direction General Airey wrote the famous order to Lucan, stating: “Lord Raglan wishes the cavalry to advance rapidly to the front, and try to prevent the enemy carrying away the guns. Troop of horse artillery may accompany. French cavalry is on your left. Immediate.”


----------



## Long in the tooth

Gerald Bull was born in Montreal and attended McGill University before working for the US govt.  He designed the G5 towed howitzer and G6 8 wheel mobile gun for SA during their various 'counter insurgencies' with neighbours.  He was found dead of suspicious causes outside his apartment near his office in Brussells.


----------



## larry Strong

Aha thats what happens when you work off of a failing mind. Thanks for putting me straight


----------



## armchair

Worn Out Grunt said:
			
		

> Gerald Bull was born in Montreal and attended McGill University before working for the US govt.  He designed the G5 towed howitzer and G6 8 wheel mobile gun for SA during their various 'counter insurgencies' with neighbours.  He was found dead of suspicious causes outside his apartment near his office in Brussells.
> [/qu
> He also work for the Canadian Government up at Churchill so time in 60ts shootting modified 16in naval guns doing research on the North Light


----------



## TangoTwoBravo

I guess that five bullets in the back of the neck/head would qualify as suspicious causes.

"There, sir, are your guns!"  Capt Nolan at Balaclava.


----------



## armchair

Colonel Sir Alexander Moncrieff was noted for want military invention?
Hint has to do with Artillery


----------



## redleafjumper

Great posts on Gerald Bull and the charge of the light brigade!

Lord Raglan's ambiguous order contributed to this disaster for the Light Brigade.  

	   	
The following information is from:

http://www.britishbattles.com/crimean-war/balaclava.htm

Now at Balaclava, in the absence of the infantry, the cavalry was required to play a major role. The Heavy Brigade had played its part to the full. The opportunity was passing to the Light Brigade and Cardigan refused to act. There seems to be no doubting Cardigan’s personal courage. He claimed that Lucan had forbidden him to take offensive action.

The opportunity for the Light Brigade was particularly apparent to Raglan’s staff watching from the Sapouné Hills, amongst whom there was considerable excitement, particularly on the part of Captain Lewis Nolan of the 15th Hussars, General Airey’s adc, a fine horseman and a ferocious advocate of the aggressive use of cavalry.


Lord Raglan's Order to the Cavalry to attack

As the Russian cavalry force withdrew along the North Valley to take up a position behind a battery of eight guns at the far end, Raglan’s staff saw that the Russians on the Causeway Heights were preparing to remove the naval guns captured from the Turks in the redoubts. Loss of guns was a clear indicator of success or failure in battle and could not be allowed to go unchallenged. The two British infantry divisions had still not reached the valley floor so that the only force available to prevent the removal of the guns was the cavalry division.


At Raglan’s direction General Airey wrote the famous order to Lucan, stating: “Lord Raglan wishes the cavalry to advance rapidly to the front, and try to prevent the enemy carrying away the guns. Troop of horse artillery may accompany. French cavalry is on your left. Immediate.”

(edited to fix link problem)


----------



## redleafjumper

Say Armchair, I had a lot of trouble finding information about your Colonel Sir Alexander Moncrieff.  The best I can find is that he was either the inventor of the Moncrieff Disappearing Gun, or a Presbyterian minister!  Apparently it is actually a gun carriage design that permits a large cannon to be concealed and put in cover.

Given your hint, my money is on the gun.   See: http://palmerstonforts.org.uk/fortlog/monc.htm


----------



## redleafjumper

Part of the British fortifications at Quebec include some rather stout built stone buildings to be found on the Plains of Abraham.
What are these fortifications called and what is their origin and purpose?  What is the meaning of their name?


----------



## stukirkpatrick

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martello_tower

Martello Towers
...are small defensive forts built by the British Empire at the time of the Napoleonic Wars. They stand about 40 feet (12m) high (with two floors) and had a garrison of one officer and 25 men. Their round structure and thick walls of solid masonry made them very resistant to cannon fire, while their height made them an ideal platform for a single heavy artillery piece, mounted on the flat roof and able to traverse a 360° arc

...Quebec City originally had four Martello towers. One stands on the Plains of Abraham, overlooking the St Lawrence River. It has been restored as a museum and can be visited during the summer months. A second tower stands nearby, and it currently hosts an 1812 Murder Mystery Dinner. The third tower in Quebec was demolished in the 1900s after being used as a residence, and the fourth surviving Martello Tower in Quebec is located on the north side of the Upper City.

...The towers' design was inspired by a round fortress, part of a larger Genovese defense system, at Mortella Point in Corsica (see picture in external link below). In 1794, the tower's defenders successfully resisted an attack by two British warships, HMS Fortitude (74 guns) and HMS Juno (32 guns). The tower was eventually captured by land-based forces under John Moore after two days of heavy fighting.

The British were impressed by the effectiveness of the tower against their most modern warships and copied the design. However, they got the name wrong, misspelling "Mortella" as "Martello".


----------



## redleafjumper

Well done Kirkpatrick, you "hammered" it  even down to the British getting the name wrong!

What was the significance of the Battle of the Teutoburger Wald, and who were the opposing commanders?


----------



## armchair

According Ian V.Hogg's book the Illustrated Encyopedia of Artillery  p190 Colonel Sir Alexander Moncrieff (1829-1920) was
the inventor of the first practical disappearing gun carriage. Was at the siege of Sevastopol in the Crimea.As at bombardment 
of Mamelon on June 6 1855.Stuck by the vulnerability of the Russian gun he made up his to design some thing better. By 1869
his  design hydro-pneumatic mount.He received L10,000 award for this invention.
redleafjumper  that just what it is disappearing gun mounts. Martello towers there is one in St.John New Brunswick that is 
fully restored


----------



## armchair

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Well done Kirkpatrick, you "hammered" it  even down to the British getting the name wrong!
> 
> What was the significance of the Battle of the Teutoburger Wald, and who were the opposing commanders?



www.ibdb.com
In this battle 7 A.D. was a defeat of 3 Roman Legion lead by Publius Quinctilius Varus.German Chief by the name Arminius
lead the tribes on three day running battle thought the forests of Teutoburger Wald.Wiping out most on the Roman Legion.
With this defeat the Roman's could not consolidate their rule in Germany.
No Legion bore the names XVII,XVIII or XIX after this battle


----------



## redleafjumper

Armchair, that's a good concise answer on this battle which meant that the frontier of the Roman Empire ended on the Rhine rather than the Elbe.  If the Elbe had been held, the entire course of European history would have been different.  Consider that if the Germanic culture on the west side of the Elbe had been "Romanised" complete with roads, aquaducts, and so on, there would never have been the struggle of the Franco-Germanic cultures in Europe.  There would have been one dominant culture and not two.  Interesting to speculate about what might have been, but hey, that's part of the fun of history.

What were the 4 main clauses offered by Scipio and accepted by Carthage after the battle of Zama?


----------



## armchair

During WWII Mortar,Type 98 had what shape of base, along with bad intelligence lead to giving it a name.
This name lead to a number troops to get severe injury's. :threat:


----------



## redleafjumper

You are talking about the Japanese "knee mortar" which had a curved base that looked like it would fit braced on one's leg to be fired.  If tried, the firer would get a broken leg for his troubles.

Find anythng on the peace with Carthage yet?


----------



## armchair

Treaty of Apamea was singed after the Battle of Zama
Under the term Antiochus was forced to:
1. Surrender all Warships
2. Surrender all Elephants
3.Pay 15,000 talents
4.Territory west of The Taurnus Mountains had to be evacuated


----------



## WCST

I could only find three:

The Battle of Zama left Carthage helpless, and the city accepted Scipio's peace terms whereby it ceded Spain to Rome, surrendered most of its warships, and began paying a 50-year indemnity to Rome. Scipio was awarded the cognomen Africanus in tribute of his victory. (http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/zama-continued.htm).

I'm still looking for #4.

M :brickwall:


----------



## 3rd Herd

My apologies for going off thread, am in the midst of the joys of moving but will be more regular in a week or two. Had the pleasure of visiting the Museum of the Regiments the other day so here are two questions. What were the first tanks used by the Canadians(purchased outright) and secondly, what were the original tank trainers based on(type of vehicle and manufacturer). Will send answers to Danjanou by PM
Cheers


----------



## geo

tank trainers?.... Ford model Ts
1st outright purchase?..... Renault


----------



## 3rd Herd

Geo,
correct on the Tanks but wrong on the other
Cheers


----------



## redleafjumper

What about the Mk VIII's?  This is from wikipedia:

Mark VIII

The Allied Mark VIII (Liberty) tankAmerican involvement in the development of the tank design led to the Mark VIII, also known as 'Liberty' or Anglo-American tank (though initially the French were partially involved).

The engine was compartmentalised from the crew, and the turret structure included forward and rear firing machine guns. Of a planned (shared production) 1500 each, 24 were built by the British before they pulled out of the project and 100 completed by the Americans. The 100 were produced between September 1918 - 1920, at the Rock Island Arsenal at a cost of $35,000 apiece.

They were used and upgraded up until the 1930s when given to Canada for training (as opposed to the M1917's which were sold at scrap value). The tank itself was over 34 feet long, and there had been an even longer 44 foot version planned but never made (the Mark VIII*). The tank was outdated by the 1930s due to its speed (under 6 mph) and armour (16 - 6 mm) but it did have one of the longest independent trench crossing capabilities of any AFV ever made. Modern MBT's and AFV's rely on bridge laying tanks for crossing large deep trenches.

Crew: 12 (later 10) 
Weight 37 tons to 40 tons 
Length/Height/Width : 34.16'/10.25'/12.33' (Mark VIII* length 44') 
Engine: Ricardo 300hp gasoline (UK), Liberty V12 340 hp (US)


----------



## 3rd Herd

Redleaf,
Geo nailed the tanks correctly as Renaults but the issues of the vehicle used as a trainer is still open. In the early 80's when I did my CBT INT course they pulled the same thing on us, dressing something up to resemble something else in this case the manufacture was the same as the one I was looking for in the pre world war two time frame.


----------



## geo

Pre WW2 german panzers went thru the same thing - but not for the same reasons...(treaty of Versailles) 
Trainers HAD to be a car or truck chassis; Ford / Chev


----------



## armchair

According to the book British and American Tanks WWII by Peter Chamber and Chris Ellis  page 177:quote
 In order to provide Canadian forces with tanks for training purposes in the summer 1940
at a time of acute shortage the U.S. sold 229 1919 vintage tanks to te Canadian Government at normal scrap value.
Of these  90 were MackVIII and the balance were American-built Renault FT type.They were used for training at 
camp Borden.
It does not say what we used be for that but I would  have to say either the:Univeral Carrier or the Loyd Carrier
If they trained in England they could have used Light Tank MkIV or MKV


----------



## Danjanou

The answer right from the horses mouth er PM

_As I am moving my computer availability right now is hit and miss. I posted two questions and the answers are Renault Tanks and Chevy trucks in the 1919 era. My source is photo's on the wall of the Museum of Regiments, Lord Strats wing, Canada's First Tanks.
thanks_


----------



## armchair

Pom-Pom what are they?And how did they get there name?
By the way I do not mean the cheerleader ones ;D ;D


----------



## redleafjumper

The complete answer to the Carthage question is:
    
      1.  The handing over of all ships of war and all elephants
      2.  Agreement to carry on no future war without the consent of Rome
      3.  The reinstatement of Masinissa in his former kingdom, and
      4.  The payment of 10,000 talents of silver spread over 50 years.

The source for this information is:

Fuller, J.F.C. Major General, C.B., C.B.E., D.S.O.  _The Decisive Battles of the Western World and Their Influence upon History_.   
        _Volume 1, From the earliest times to the Battle of Lepanto_. 3rd impression,  London: Eyre & Spottiswoode, 1963, page 144.


Pom Pom?  Well, that's the short 40mm Bofors anti-aircraft guns, especially in the naval mount.  The name is from two features, the flak burst in the sky and the sound of them firing, especially in a mulitple mount.  It has also been used to describe the long-barreled 40mm.

How many submarines did Germany make during World War 2 of each of the two types?  What were those types and where is the German U-Boat Memorial?


----------



## armchair

Pom-Pom the name predates the 40mm bofor by some time.A 37mm calibre automatic cannon devised Hiram Maxim.
It went in to production in the early 1890s.Basicaly an overgrown Maxim machine gun.Originally used by  navy's as an anti-torpedo-boat weapon.It was placed on wheeled carriage and first used as land weapon by the Boars
during the South African War. The rapid arrival of the small 1lb shells,and their detonation,
give rise to its nickname Pom-Pom,bestowed the British.
British adapted it as a light anti-aircraft gun in 1914.
By WWII the name applied to a number of automatic weapons of similar caliber use by the RN RCN
The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Artillery(Ian V Hogg) page 200


----------



## armchair

1,156 were built just before or during WWII of these only 863 were used operational.There over 10 Types built.
At the end  365 remained on May 8 1945 Were is a U-Boat Memorial at Moltenort Germany 
www.uboatwar.net


----------



## armchair

Who was the Only Canadian to Command a Theater of Operations during WWII?
What Theater and when did he take command?


----------



## redleafjumper

Hoggs' book is certainly a good authority on such things as "pom-poms", so I defer to the source.


The theatre Commander is:  (www.junobeach.org)
Admiral L.W. Murray

"Leonard Warren Murray, born in Granton, Nova Scotia, on June 22nd , 1896; died in Derbyshire, Great-Britain, on November 25th, 1971. Officer of the Royal Canadian Navy (RCN).
http://www.junobeach.org/e/3/img/PA-037456lrg.jpg

	On 29 July 1942, Rear Admiral L.W. Murray is presenting awards to crew members of destroyer HMCS St. Croix, which sank enemy submarine U-90 on 24 July 1942.  (caption for photo linked above)
Department of National Defence / National Archives of Canada, PA-037456.

Murray entered the recently founded Halifax Royal Naval College when he was 15-year old. Two years later he was appointed as midshipman on a Royal Navy vessel, the first of a long series of British ships on which he served during WWI and between the two world wars.

When WWII breaks out, Murray becomes Deputy Chief of the Naval Staff and holds highly important commands throughout the war. Promoted to Commodore, he is put in charge of the Newfoundland Escort Force (NEF) on May 31st, 1941, to be reorganized in February 1942 as the Mid-Ocean Escort Force (MOEF).

With the rationalization of the Atlantic Command, Murray is made a Rear Admiral and, on April 30th, 1943, Commander-in-Chief Canadian Northwest Atlantic. From his HQ in Halifax he commands all Canadian and Allied air and naval forces involved in convoy protection in that area. He was the only Canadian officer in charge of an Allied theatre of operations during WWII."


As for the U-boat question, the answer I am seeking is still not completely present.  I am looking for numbers of the two types of U-boat built during the war.  Armchair has correctly provided the location: Moltenort (near Laboe) is the site of the German National Unterseeboot Ehrenmal.   It's the one with the names of every U-Boot, crew member and cause of loss from WW1 and WW2 engraved on its walls.  Here's a picture:

http://www.volksbund-sh.de/Angebote_fur_Schulen/Projekte/Laboe_Moltenort/UEM.jpg

Perhaps another guess?

(edited to correct some typos and to add link)


----------



## larry Strong

30 some thousand names on that wall, 75% of the U-bootwaffe never made it home.

The work horse "Type VIIC" - 568 boats

"Type IXC" - 54 boats

http://uboat.net/types/


----------



## redleafjumper

Larry, your source differs with mine.  Westwood's Fighting Ships of WW2 puts the numbers at:

     a. VIIc 801 boats, and
     b. IXc 143 boats.

I suspect that the difference may be that the dates of your source only count production after the US entered the war at the end of 1941; mine include production for the whole war.

The British built 185 subs of the "S", "T", "U", and "V" types; the US built only 73 of the Balao and Gato types; Japan made a total of 42 of the RO-100 (18) and I-15 (24).

What vessel was chosen to take President Roosevelt on his South American "good neighbour tour" of 1936?


----------



## BernDawg

That would be a battleship.  Some good neighbour eh?

The Indianapolis again welcomed President Roosevelt at Charleston, South Carolina, 18 November 1936 for a "Good-Neighbor" cruise to South America which included calls to Rio de Janeiro, Brazil; Buenos Aires, Argentina, for the Pan American Conference; Montevideo, Uruguay, for state visits and Trinidad. Historically, this was an important trip as it was the first time a serving President of the United States and visited outside of North America. On the occasion of crossing the equator, 'Father Neptune' visited the ship to initiate neophyte 'pollywogs' into hardened 'shell-backs'. Those lucky initiates received their certificates - signed by the President of the United States! President Roosevelt was debarked at Charleston 15 December.


----------



## redleafjumper

Right ship, Berndawg, and a good answer, except that the Indianapolis is a heavy cruiser, not a battleship.


----------



## big bad john

Wasn't this CA-35 USS Indianapolis of the disaster fame.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Complete history of CA-35 USS Indianapolis is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Indianapolis_(CA-35)


----------



## reccecrewman

Allright. I'm asking a question here that I don't know the answer to. I'm looking for the answer, so hopefully, I get the right answer.  As we all know, Sir Sam Hughes had a hard on for numbered Battalions in the First World War.  Herein lies my question.  The guidon of the 1st Hussars displays numerous WWI battle honours, but when I looked on the orbat of the 4 Canadian Divisions, all I could find were 1st Battalion, 116th Battalion etc. etc.  What was the Battalion number of 1H? What Division did they fight with?

Thanks in advance history buffs.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Might this be answer you are looking for?

http://www.regiments.org/regiments/na-canada/volmil/on-cav/01Hussar.htm


----------



## armchair

Admiral Murray another of Canada's unsung hero's.One of the lest known of the theater commanders.
I found a site that shows his memorial:
http://www.newscotland1398.net/pictouco/murraymemorial.html


----------



## armchair

How many RCN ships were lost during WWII?


----------



## Jantor

Hello,

I counted 31

http://www.naval-museum.mb.ca/ships/rollcall.htm


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Umm..... 39?

http://stjohns.sasktelwebsite.net/atlantic.html


----------



## armchair

Well I did it this time.I think you are both right.
Number depend on what you consider lost. Some the ship listed as lost made it back to a harbor but were not repaired
If a ship was manned by the RCN one list count them as Canada losses
I found my info  added up to 35.I compared list form the other to sites are only differ on how you count them.
 ??? ???   




http://familyheritage.ca/Articles/warship1.html


----------



## BernDawg

OOPS! my bad.  There I go again confusing city names and state names.  You have to like the "good neighbours" eh?  Look at the size of my stick! ;D


----------



## redleafjumper

Haven't seen a new question posted for awhile, so:

Who was popularly known as "Old Fuss and Feathers" and why?


----------



## Jantor

American, Gen. Winfield Scott was known as "Old Fuss and Feathers" because of his attention to detail and his fondness for flashy uniforms.

http://ngeorgia.com/people/scott.html

Who is believed to be the only person awarded the VC on a recommendation from an enemy officer?


----------



## QV

Ah thats a good one... he was an allied pilot, recommended by the Germans.... name escapes me though.


----------



## Bill Smy

To whom did the Queen say "I don't get the chance to present this very often", and to what was she referring?


----------



## Jantor

Private Johnson Beharry VC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson_Beharry

Now for my question: clue #1  He was an naval officer in WWII


----------



## redleafjumper

From: http://www.theheritagecoast.co.uk/historyfile/portland_and_weymouth/portlands_deep_sea_harbour/foylebank.htm
    
           

HMS Glowworm 
   Ramming the Hipper

In April 1940 the Germans invaded Norway and among the many naval actions during the campaign there was one with connections to Weymouth, a David and Goliath tale of heroism leading to the award of a posthumous Victoria Cross to the Commanding Officer of a small British destroyer, Lieutenant Commander G.B.Roope, a Weymouth man.

           
The 8th April found HMS Glowworm off the Norwegian coast, detached from her duties as escort to the battleship HMS Renown, and searching for a seaman washed overboard. Two German destroyers appeared on the horizon and after a short engagement in which the Glowworm recorded at least one hit on the enemy, the Germans retired to the north drawing the British destroyer on to the big 8 inch guns of the heavy Cruiser Admiral Hipper.

The Captain of the Glowworm now had a dreadful choice to make. His normal duty would be to shadow the powerful enemy force to enable the Renown to intercept, but Roope knew there was little chance of remaining in contact with the Hipper in the weather conditions so he chose to challenge the enemy himself, to pit his torpedoes and 4.7 inch guns against the German's greatly superior firepower.

After reporting the enemy to Renown, he charged in, but all ten of his torpedoes missed and Glowworm received a direct hit from Hipper's 8 inch. One gun was put out of action but the destroyer still had a full head of steam and her Captain decided, to the amazement of the Germans, to ram the big cruiser. She hit at full force and embedded her bows solidly into the Hipper. The German Captain manoeuvred frantically to release his unwanted visitor and finally had to train all the guns that would bear to blast the destroyer from his side.

Glowworm drifted away and heeled to starboard. The ship was a shambles with few unwounded. Roope gave the order to abandon ship and shortly after Glowworm turned over. One survivor remembers his Captain, a keen cricketer, sitting on the keel of the upturned hull saying 'I don't suppose we shall play much cricket again."

The German cruiser spent over an hour trying to pick up survivors but only 31 out of a crew of 149 were rescued and this did not include her gallant Captain. 
           
So impressed were the Germans with the conduct of the action of the tiny British destroyer that the German Admiral recommended her Captain for the VC, believed to be the only time such a decoration had been awarded on the recommendation of an enemy.

The Hipper, which was carrying 2000 German Alpine troops to Norway had to turn back to Germany for extensive repairs which kept her out of action for much of the war.


   

Hard to get a higher recommendation that that!

And yes, Winfield Scott was "Old Fuss and Feathers" for the reasons stated by Jantor.


----------



## Jantor

Bravo redleafjumper, well done sir!

                  


I believe it is once again your turn, yes?


----------



## redleafjumper

Toward the end of World War 2, the German Reich was very desperate for small arms of any kind, particularly those that were cheap and easy to make.  They made about 10,000 of a crude copy of an allied smg for issue to Volksstrum.  

What was the firearm that they copied and what was the German name for the copy?  What was the most obvious difference of the copy from the original?


----------



## big bad john

The sten gun.


----------



## DG-41

It was the MP 3008, a copy of the Sten, but with a vertical magazine.

DG


----------



## redleafjumper

The firearm copied was the STEN gun and the designation was the Maschinenpistole 3008 (MP3008).  Nice quick responses from big bad john and RecceDG.

The Germans also made an exact copy of an Allied SMG for use by German Guerillas in Allied-occupied countries.

What did they copy, how many did they make, and what was the copy called?


----------



## DG-41

At the battle of Wilderness, American Civil War, 1864, a Corps commander of the Army of the Potomac was killed.

What was his name, and what were his last words?

DG


----------



## redleafjumper

Spotsylvania was one of the actions of the Battle of the Wilderness so here goes:

Sixth Corps commander Major General John Sedgwick, was killed by a sharpshooter's bullet as he prowled the front lines on May 9. Shortly before, Sedgwick had chided some infantrymen trying to dodge the occasional minnie balls whistling past with the comment that the Confederates "couldn't hit an elephant at this distance."

Probably some of the most ironic last words in history.

Any guesses on that second copied SMG?

(edited to fix a typo)


----------



## DG-41

Ding! 

Some have it as "couldn't hit an elephant at this dist..."



DG


----------



## redleafjumper

As a follow-up question (and I am still waiting for an answer on that SMG...) who was the other Corps Commander killed in the Battle of the Wilderness?


----------



## armchair

Page 53 of The Encyclopedia of Infantry Weapons of World War II C/W 1977 Bison Books
Author Ian V.Hogg 
Sten: quote( the most remarkable of the wartime copies was a German forgery complete even to the Enfield inspector's
stamps,intended for issue to German guerrilla forces intended to harass the Allied troops in Germany)


----------



## muffin

Gen Wadsworth commander of the Fifth Corps was killed in the Battle of the Wilderness.

http://www.civilwarhome.com/5thcorps.htm


----------



## redleafjumper

Armchair is correct; it was a copy of the Sten Mk II.  They made 25,000-30,000 of them and only issued a few.  It was called the "Gerat Potsdam".  Ian Hogg and John Week's _Military Small Arms of the 20th Century _ refers to this weapon.

Wadsworth is the other corps commander killed in the Battle of the Wilderness as correctly noted by Muffin.


----------



## reccecrewman

What was the most decorated non-combat ship in the U.S Navy in WWII earning 2 Battle Stars?  (Even earning 1 Battle Star was almost unheard of for a non combat ship let alone 2)


----------



## redleafjumper

The survey ship USS PATHFINDER earned two campaign or battle stars for taking part in two major amphibious operations in the Asiatic-Pacific Theater of action  These were:

1. Consolidation of Southern British Solomons. 7 April -  June 1943.
2. Assault and Occupation of Okinawa Gunto. 5 January -  30 June 1945.


----------



## armchair

The Infantry Gun is largely a Continental concept.The German Army of WWII use a number of them.
The ranged in size from one of the smallest 2.8cm anti-tank gun to the huge 8.8cm PAK 43 anti-guns
2.8cm Schweres Panzerbuchse was very unusual design why was that?
What other German gun used the same idea?
Also name the Allied tank that used an adaptor of the same design?


----------



## redleafjumper

It used a squeeze bore, like the PAK 40 and PAK 41.

The "Little John" squeeze bore attachment was used to power up the 2lb'er as on the Tetrarch air-transportable light tank.    Check this website out for more information on German weaponry of WW2.  

http://www.miniatures.de/html/int/shells-german.html+

(edited to fix typo)


----------



## redleafjumper

What were the main differences between the German Panthers Pz V Ausf A and the Pz V Ausf D?


----------



## armchair

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> What were the main differences between the German Panthers Pz V Ausf A and the Pz V Ausf D?


Production began in Nov.1942 using a 650hp engine after 20 tanks had been built the engine was changed to
700hp model.Model D was standard production model until Jan 1943. The A model went into production in
1943 It had improved armored cupola with periscopes and a ball mount for the hull machine gun and 
anti-bazooka side plates over the top run of the track.In all 4814 Panthers of all marks were made


----------



## redleafjumper

Armchair has some of the main differences.

According to Chamberlain and Doyle's Encyclopedia of German Tanks of WW2, here are the differences:

"The important changes on the Panther Ausf A were the introduction of the new cupola for the commander, and strengthened running gear.  The number of wheel-rim bolts were doubled to prevent failures.  Several modifications were made to the drive train to improve reliability.  Engine exhaust cooling was modified.  The hull design remained unchanged, but a new ball-mount was designed to replace the letter-box flap MG port.  These ball mounts were fitted to a portion of Ausf A from August 1943, and were fitted to all Ausf A from late 1943.  The turret had many modifications.  In addition to the new cupola, an episcope for the loader was provided on the right side of the turret roof.  The small ammunition loading hatch in the left side was eliminated, and during the production run the turret side pistol ports were eliminated in favour of the roof mounted 'Nahverteidigungswaffe'  (close-defence weapon)."


What was Magruder's response to this question, and who was asking?  "General Magruder, why did you attack?"


----------



## armchair

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> It used a squeeze bore, like the PAK 40 and PAK 41.
> 
> The "Little John" squeeze bore attachment was used to power up the 2lb'er as on the Tetrarch air-transportable light tank.    Check this website out for more information on German weaponry of WW2.
> 
> http://www.miniatures.de/html/int/shells-german.html+
> 
> (edited to fix typo)


There was another Allied tank that use the Littlejohn on the Rhine crossing?
Larry is correct so I went edit to reflect
The German tapered bore: 2.8cm Schwres Panzerbuchse 41 28mm at the breech 20mm at the muzzle                                      
                                       4.2cm Panzerjagerkanone 41 40.6mm at the breech 29.4 at the muzzle                                       
                                       7.5cm Panzerabwehrkanone 41  75mm at breech 55mm at muzzle
One other thing about 2.8cm S.PzB 41F was one of the lightest anti-tank gun at 260lb in action used by German Airborne unit


----------



## redleafjumper

The Tetrarch was used on the Rhine crossing.  The only other AFV using the 2lb'er at that time with the Little John conversion was the Daimler armoured car.  Is there another tank/AFV that I have missed?  I suppose that the Buffalo, turreted version, would likely have had the same conversion, but I'm not certain of that.


----------



## armchair

Light Tank(Airborne) M22,Locust Plate 231 Shows M22 with Littlejohn
A large number were supplied under Lend-Lease for airborne operations and a handful of these were landed by Hamilcar
glider in the Rhine crossing operation by the British 6th Airborne Division,March 24 1945 
quote page 99 British and American Tanks of WWII C/W 1969 by Peter Chamberlain and Chris Ellis
www.robertsarmory.com/m22.htm


----------



## larry Strong

The 7.5cm Pak 40 was not a squeeze bore anti-tank gun. All the squeeze bores had the designation "41",

The first one to enter service was the:

2.8-cm schwere Panzerbuchse 41 (2.8-cm sPzB 41)

the next was:

4.2-cm leitche Panzerabwehrkanone 41 (4.2-cm lePak 41)

the final one was:

7.5-cm Pak 41 This was a very powerfull and advanced gun that at one time showed so much promise that it almost took over from the 7.5-cm Pak 40 as the standard AT gun., but despite having better armour piercing performance it was passed over due to the German Tungsten situation.



Sources:

Handbook on German Military Forces. US War Dept Tech Manual, 15 Mar 1945 TM-E 30-451.

The Complete Encyclopedia of Weapons of WW2


----------



## redleafjumper

Ah, the locust, the other airborne tank - forgot about that one.  Larry, your sources on the squeeze look good to me.  I think I misunderstood the application of enhanced velocity with the bottle neck cartridge in the PAK 40. The lack of tungsten was certainly a problem for German AT gun velocities toward the end of the war.  I want to look into that one some more.

Any answers on the Magruder question?


----------



## BernDawg

General Lee, during "The Seven Days"

As the rebel attack faltered and disintegrated, Lee looked over the bloody ground over which it had stumbled and concluded that no responsible general would have gone ahead with such an assault. He found Magruder and reprimanded him again: "General Magruder, why did you attack?" Magruder could only answer: "In obedience to your orders, twice repeated."


----------



## armchair

The Japanese destroyer Yukikaze.What was unusual about this ships history during WWII?


----------



## BernDawg

It survived the war.

Yukikaze was a Kagero-class destroyer in service with the Imperial Japanese Navy during World War II. She was the only member of her class to survive the war. The attrition rate of Japanese destroyers was extremely high due to the need to use them for transporting supplies to the many scattered island garrisons.

 ;D


----------



## armchair

BernDawg said:
			
		

> It survived the war.
> 
> Yukikaze was a Kagero-class destroyer in service with the Imperial Japanese Navy during World War II. She was the only member of her class to survive the war. The attrition rate of Japanese destroyers was extremely high due to the need to use them for transporting supplies to the many scattered island garrisons.
> 
> 
> Not only did she survive but went entire war without being hit.She was involved in nearly all the important actions of the war
> Great Work


----------



## armchair

Dynamite Guns  what was unusal about this system?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

It used compressed air, or pneumatics to launch the charge.


----------



## armchair

Thats good recceguy but why was it call a Dynamite Gun


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Because the charge it fired was sometimes dynamite, sometimes gelatinous nitro.


----------



## Cloud Cover

BernDawg said:
			
		

> General Lee, during "The Seven Days"
> 
> As the rebel attack faltered and disintegrated, Lee looked over the bloody ground over which it had stumbled and concluded that no responsible general would have gone ahead with such an assault. He found Magruder and reprimanded him again: "General Magruder, why did you attack?" Magruder could only answer: "In obedience to your orders, twice repeated."



Malvern Hill?


----------



## Cloud Cover

What did the Gutta Percha Rubber Company Limited, of Toronto, manufacture in WW2 that came equipped with a flashing light attachment?


----------



## larry Strong

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> What did the Gutta Percha Rubber Company Limited, of Toronto, manufacture in WW2 that came equipped with a flashing light attachment?



Inflatable life vest for pilots?


----------



## armchair

recceguy said:
			
		

> It used compressed air, or pneumatics to launch the charge.


Yes it was the Granddad of the pumpkin guns of today the air was used for the same reason air propulsion gave the shell
or pumpkin more gentle push. Thats why they could use dynamite filled shell


----------



## armchair

Before the USA declared war in April 1917 many American to serve in the Canadian Army . 
Many sever in a Battalion known as American Legion.What was this Battalion real name.


----------



## redleafjumper

Whiskey 601 asked:

"Malvern Hill?"  

As Bern Dawg correctly pointed out it was Lee asking Magruder as indicated.  The wasteful assault by Magruder's troops was very near Malvern Hill on Crew House Hill.  

(edited to correct typo)


----------



## redleafjumper

The 5 American Legion Battalions in the CEF were numbered 97, 211, 212, 213, and 237.  

Their motto was "Deeds not Words"


----------



## Cloud Cover

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> Inflatable life vest for pilots?



Very close. 
They manufactured a rubber coated, kapok filled Mae West life jacket for the RCN. 

"The jacket was fitted with a special crotch piece to prevent injury from underwater explosions and included special head gear for support. A flashing light attachment was fitted for visual sighting .... when HMCS Clayoquot was torpedoed in December, 1944 the jacket demonstrated its life saving quality. Only seaman without the life jackets were injured by the under water blast. Those wearing them at the same distance from the explosion were protected."

Burrow, Len and Emile Beaudoin, _Unluck Lady- The Life and Death of HMCS Athabaskan _, [1989: McLelland &Stewart Inc.] 132.


----------



## armchair

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> The 5 American Legion Battalions in the CEF were numbered 97, 211, 212, 213, and 237.
> 
> Their motto was "Deeds not Words"


Your right the book I have only mentions the 97 Overseas Battalion.Complains from the US government about the
use of the word "American" caused it to be dropped from the official description-but the soldiers still used the name


----------



## larry Strong

Some info on German AT guns mentioned previously

_*Pak 40*_:

Rheinmetals upgraded version of the 5cm Pak 38. The 7.5cm Pak 40 is similar in
appearance to the 5 cm Pak 38. The monobloc tube is fitted with a double-baffle muzzle-
brake, and the breech mechanism is semi automatic with a horizontal sliding block. the
carriage, with tubular split trail has solid-rubber-tired wheels and torsion bar suspension
and may be towed at about 25 mph. The shield consists of two 4-mm plates about 1"
apart.

Characteristic's
Caliber...........................................................75mm (2.95 inches)
Length of tube....................................................11 feet 4 inches
Weight in action..............................................3,136 lbs
Muzzle velocity (AP40).....................................3,250 fps
Muzzle velocity (APCBC)...................................2,530 fps
Muzzle velocity (HE)........................................1,800 fps
Muzzle velocity (Hollow charge)........................1,476 fps
Traverse.........................................................65 deg
Elevation.......................................................- 5 deg to + 22 deg
Traction..........................................................Motor drawn

Ammunition
Weights of projectiles fired from this gun are;
HE.................................................................12.54 lbs
APCBC...........................................................15 lbs
AP shot..........................................................9.25 lbs
Hollow charge.................................................9.97 lbs
Smoke...........................................................13.7 lbs  

With APCBC ammunition, penetration of homogeneous armour is 102mm (4.02 inches)
at 30 deg from normal at 1000 yds.
This AT gun was issued, with mods to the shield to allow  attaining upper elevations, as
an Artillery weapon mainly to Volkstum units near the end of the war.

_*2.8 cm s. Pz.B 41*_

This first Gerlich high velocity tapered-bore antitank gun first appeared in 1941. The
monobloc tueb has a semi-automatic breech with horizontal block breech and is fitted
with a muzzle-brake. An airborne version existed which consists of an identical tube on a
light alloy cradle and a wheeled tubular mount with no shield. This version weights 260 lbs.

Characteristic's
Caliber...........................................................initial 28mm (1.1 inches)
                                                                     emergent 20mm (0.78 inches)
Length of tube.................................................5 feet 7.62 inches
Weight in action..............................................501 lbs
Muzzle velocity................................................4,600 fps 
Traverse........................................................90 deg
Elevation........................................................-5 deg to + 45 deg

Ammunition.
HE and AP (tungsten carbide core) rounds are fired .
Weights of projectiles fired from this gun are:

HE................................................................3.1 Oz's
AP................................................................4.6 Oz's 
The AP ammo will penetrate 68 mm (2.88 inches) at 700 yds, 30 deg from normal


_*4.2 cm le. Pak 41*_

The 4.2 cm le. Pak 41 is the second of the tapered-bore AT gun series. The mono-bloc
tube is long with obvious external as well as internal taper and has no muzzle-brake. The
sliding breech-block is hand operated. The mount is identical to the 3.7 cm Pak but with a
double upper shield. A second shield  3/16 inch thick is riveted to the standard shield with
an intervening space of approximately 1 3/8 inches.

Characteristic's
Caliber...........................................................initial 42 mm (1.65 inches)
                                                                     emergent 28 mm (1.1 inches)
Length of tube................................................7 feet 4.5inches
Weight in action..............................................990 lbs
Muzzle velocity...............................................4,100 fps 
Traverse........................................................44 deg
Elevation........................................................-8 deg to + 32 deg
Traction..........................................................Motor drawn

Ammunition.
HE and AP (tungsten carbide core) rounds are fired .
Weights of projectiles fired from this gun are:

HE................................................................0.56 lbs
AP................................................................0.69 lbs
The AP ammo will penetrate 68 mm (2.88 inches) at 700 yds, 30 deg from normal




_*7.5 cm pak 41*_

This was the third tapered-bore AT gun to be introduced. It has a muzzle brake, and a
semi automatic vertical sliding breech block. A cylindrical cradle covering the rear half of
the tube is attached to the shield by a shperical universal joint.


Characteristic's
Caliber...........................................................initial 75 mm (2.95 inches)
                                                                     emergent 55 mm (2.17 inches)
Length of tube................................................13 feet 7.375 inches 
Weight in action..............................................3,136 lbs
Muzzle velocity................................................3,936 fps (estimated) 
Traverse.........................................................60 deg
Elevation........................................................- 108 deg to + 18 deg
Traction..........................................................Motor drawn
..

Ammunition.
HE and AP (tungsten carbide core) rounds are fired .
Weights of projectiles fired from this gun are:

HE................................................................3.1 oz
AP.................................................................5.68 lbs, of which 2.01 lbs is the tungsten
core. The AP round will penetrate 130 mm (5.12 inches) of homogeneous armour at 30 deg
from normal at 1000 yds

Source:

Handbook on German Military Forces. US War Dept Tech Manual, 15 Mar 1945 TM-E 30-451.


----------



## redleafjumper

Thanks Larry, that's great information on those PAKs.


----------



## larry Strong

Your are more than welcome. WW2 is one of the few things I feel I know something about, and there is not much call for military trivia out at the rig :


----------



## Cloud Cover

What is the name of the only non-Canadian, Tribal class destroyer built post WW1 in HM's service that did not participate in the Korean war yet served past the end of that war?


----------



## redleafjumper

HMAS Arunta - I30 Tribal class destroyer of the Royal Australian Navy.  She was laid up during the Korean war and sold for scrap around 1957.  See: http://uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/4437.html

What was the only Tribal not named after a tribe?


----------



## armchair

In 1914 the Canadian military amounted to a permanent force of about 3,000 regulars. What was the size of the militia?
What was the over all population of Canada?


----------



## Cloud Cover

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> HMAS Arunta - I30 Tribal class destroyer of the Royal Australian Navy.  She was laid up during the Korean war and sold for scrap around 1957.  See: http://uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/4437.html



You are correct!



> What was the only Tribal not named after a tribe?



HMAS Bataan: http://hmcshaida.ca/bataan.html


----------



## redleafjumper

Whisky601, your answer of the HMAS Bataan as the non-tribe tribal is likewise correct!


----------



## Michael Dorosh

> In 1914 the Canadian military amounted to a permanent force of about 3,000 regulars. What was the size of the militia?
> What was the over all population of Canada?



Population of 8 million, Militia strength was about 60,000 - source: MSN Encarta. 

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_461511150_4/Canadian_Forces.html


<img src="http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/mediawiki-1.5.5/images/7/7d/Combatshirta.png">

Now, time for a uniform question.

Who can identify:

a) model of shirt
b) unit depicted
c) rank depicted
d) likely time frame this garment would have been worn in this configuration?


----------



## armchair

Canadian Forces Combat Dress 
The Unit is Royal Canadian Ordnance Corps
Rank of Corporal
Some just after Unification 1968 early 1970 
The Corporal rank of this type was used for a short time as it could be confused with the Master Corporal badge
And it was before the 1990 as there is no subdued Flag on the left shoulder      
www.canadiansoldiers.com


----------



## armchair

During WWII with of the major combatants did not field a anti- tank rifle?


----------



## Michael Dorosh

armchair said:
			
		

> During WWII with of the major combatants did not field a anti- tank rifle?



I'd say the United States.


----------



## Cloud Cover

Early in the war, when France was a major combatant, they did not appear to have their own anti-tank rifle. Perhaps Italy as well?  

The US does not appear to have its own dedicated anti tank rifle in WW2, but they do appear to have some doctrine contemplating the use of the .50cal in the anti armour role- perhaps with special rounds?

Which countries reclassified man portable flamethrower operators to "engineer" and why?


----------



## geo

Which countries reclassified man portable flamethrower operators to "engineer" and why?
Infantry kept burning their lips trying to use em to light ciggies? (JK)


----------



## Michael Dorosh

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> Early in the war, when France was a major combatant, they did not appear to have their own anti-tank rifle. Perhaps Italy as well?
> 
> The US does not appear to have its own dedicated anti tank rifle in WW2, but they do appear to have some doctrine contemplating the use of the .50cal in the anti armour role- perhaps with special rounds?
> 
> Which countries reclassified man portable flamethrower operators to "engineer" and why?



This is a WAG, but I'll say German, only because I thought flamethrowers were issued to pionier units exclusively.  We seem to have used them as standard weapons in infantry units, both the lifebuoy man portable model and the WASP kits on the Carrier.

The US marines seem to have issued them out directly to rifle platoons as well, as a necessity in fortified places like Iwo Jima.


----------



## reccecrewman

I'd agree with you Micheal - It was the Germans whose flamethrowers were used exclusively by Engineers.  

Scroll down to para 5.

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/portft/index.html


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Okay then, next question. 

In which battalion of the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry did the following incident occur:

On an occasion when an entire formation was ordered to parade in full kit, individuals of several units refused to muster, including an entire  company of the PPCLI.  The event was actually labelled a "mutiny" in some quarters and the company commander was relieved.  In which battalion did this take place?


----------



## larry Strong

Regretably  I do not own the work dress example, though I am always looking.


----------



## geo

hehe.....the "career Corporal"
haven't seen any of those in 30 some years.


----------



## armchair

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> Early in the war, when France was a major combatant, they did not appear to have their own anti-tank rifle. Perhaps Italy as well?
> 
> The US does not appear to have its own dedicated anti tank rifle in WW2, but they do appear to have some doctrine contemplating the use of the .50cal in the anti armour role- perhaps with special rounds?
> 
> 
> Your Right about the U.S.Army they were going rely on there M2 .50 cal machine gun with armor piecing rounds
> The Italians used th 2cm Panzerbuchse S 18-1000 as well as other German anti-tank rifles.
> Can not find any thing on the French army before 1940. But the Free France in the Western desert many have used the Boys
> As they were supply by the British.


----------



## armchair

How did I do on the uniform?


----------



## armchair

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Okay then, next question.
> 
> In which battalion of the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry did the following incident occur:
> 
> On an occasion when an entire formation was ordered to parade in full kit, individuals of several units refused to muster, including an entire  company of the PPCLI.  The event was actually labelled a "mutiny" in some quarters and the company commander was relieved.  In which battalion did this take place?
> 
> 
> 
> Well I could find the answer to question but there regmental song do?
> 
> The Princess Pat's Battalion
> They sailed across the Herring Pond,
> They sailed across the Channel too,
> And landed there with the Ric-A-Dam-Doo
> Dam-Doo, Dam-Doo.
> The Bombers of the Princess Pat's
> Are scared of naught, excepting rats,
> They're full of pep and dynamite too,
> They'd never lose the Ric-A-Dam-Doo,
> Dam-Doo, Dam-Doo.
> Old Hammy Gault, our first PP,
> He led this band across the sea,
> He'd lose an arm, or leg or two
> Before he'd lose the Ric-A-Dam-Doo,
> Dam-Doo, Dam-Doo.
> And then we came to Sicily.
> We leapt ashore with vim and glee.
> The Colonel said the Wops are through
> Let's chase the Hun with the Ric-A-Dam-Doo,
> Dam-Doo, Dam-Doo.
> The Ric-A-Dam-Doo, pray what is that?
> 'Twas made at home by Princess Pat,
> It's Red and Gold and Royal Blue,
> That's what we call the Ric-A-Dam-Doo,
> Dam-Doo, Dam-Doo.


----------



## reccecrewman

MD, I'd have to say the 1st Battalion. This incident occured at the end of WWI.  Members of the PPCLI were getting antsy to get home and there was much boozing and recklessness going on and they were ordered to march with full kit from one ville in France (names escape me now) to another.  When they arrived, there were no billets available to them, so it was decided to march on.  Several men said "#@!* it, we're staying here" and the rest of the Battalion carried on. Pte. Knight (one of the mutineers) got them to go to the ville the rest of the Battalion was at and a CSM came running up the street telling them to go back because they were going to be shot.  The men were so hungry and exhausted they didn't care and went into billets for the night.  Next day, Hammie Gault himself ordered the Battalion to kit up and they went on a 20 mi. route march for no reason whatsoever.  They all did so and the mutiny was over.  This incident had it gone any further could have prevented the PPCLI from being perpetuated into a Reg Force Battalion.


----------



## reccecrewman

The mutiny began 13 Dec. 1918 at Nivelles. The men were angry at having been made to undertake a 2 day route march under full pack with no information about their destination. On the afternoon of 14 Dec. BGen. Clark ordered the Patricias to march north to Genval.  As many as half the Battalion stayed in Nivelles, refusing to march any further.  The remainder decided to follow the Battalion and arrived at Genval at about 2100, then the CSM came running down the street............. see my above post.


----------



## reccecrewman

What is the only Regiment & Battalion to ever receive a new colours in an operational theatre? Where did the ceremony take place?


----------



## dangerboy

3 PPCLI  received new colours on OP Harmony in Croatia in 1993. The parade took place in Pakrac.  I do not have a source, just my memory. I was on the parade in B Coy's guard.


----------



## larry Strong

The Awards ceremony and changing of the Colors took place at Pakrac Hospital in Feb of 1993(what was left of it), an was attended by Lady Patricia.

Top: Awaiting the arrival of

Bottom: The arrival of Lady Patricia.

I have more photo's of the ceremony if anyone is interested. I was driving Capt Rechner around at the time and missed the parade.....damn...... ;D


----------



## geo

reccecrewman said:
			
		

> What is the only Regiment & Battalion to ever receive a new colours in an operational theatre? Where did the ceremony take place?


Have doubts that they are the only ones......
Royal Montreal Regiment were presented a new stand of colours in Germany at the end of WW1 and in Holland at the end of WW2


----------



## armchair

Janacek was Czech gun designer who escaped at the time of the German occupation.What gun system did work on?


----------



## Michael Dorosh

reccecrewman said:
			
		

> The mutiny began 13 Dec. 1918 at Nivelles. The men were angry at having been made to undertake a 2 day route march under full pack with no information about their destination. On the afternoon of 14 Dec. BGen. Clark ordered the Patricias to march north to Genval.  As many as half the Battalion stayed in Nivelles, refusing to march any further.  The remainder decided to follow the Battalion and arrived at Genval at about 2100, then the CSM came running down the street............. see my above post.



Technically I'd call them the "CEF" Battalion, but I guess if the 1st pepetuates them... 

Good answer.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

reccecrewman said:
			
		

> What is the only Regiment & Battalion to ever receive a new colours in an operational theatre? Where did the ceremony take place?



The South Saskatchewan Regiment was awarded new colours in the UK, which was considered "overseas" for the Canadian Army - hell, you got the Defence Medal for being there....


----------



## larry Strong

armchair said:
			
		

> Janacek was Czech gun designer who escaped at the time of the German occupation.What gun system did work on?



....In late 1940 - a similar idea had been forwarded by a Mr Janacek, a Czechoslovakian weapons designer working in England......The British version was in the form of a taper-bore adapter to be fitted to the existing 2-pounder gun, together with a special tungsten-core shot, known under the code name "Littlejohn" an Anglicised version of Janacek....The Littlejohn attachment and it's shot were not used in towed artillery, since by the time they were ready for service the AT units were equipped with the 6-pounder, but it was used on 2-pounder and US 37mm guns in Armoured Cars......


Source:
Weapons and War Machines.
Andrew Kershaw and Ian Close.
Phobeous Publishing Company


----------



## armchair

Kromuskit was the name given to the American recoilless guns developed during WWII. It was made in 57mm and 75mm
Designed by William J. Kroger and C.Walton Musser both employed by Frankford Arsenal. 
What is the Canadian connection to this gun system


----------



## Cloud Cover

reccecrewman said:
			
		

> I'd agree with you Micheal - It was the Germans whose flamethrowers were used exclusively by Engineers.
> 
> Scroll down to para 5.
> 
> http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/portft/index.html



Sorry for the delay. According to Alan Clark in Barbarossa, German army flamethrower operators were reclassified to engineer 1st class after the invasion of Russia in 1941 - after the German army discovered how captured flamethrower operators were put to death by the Russians. The obvious benefits would be 1) increased pay for increased risk and 2) a notation in a pay book of engineer 1st class was sufficiently amorphous to perhaps stave off certain death shortly [but not immediately] after capture.


----------



## redleafjumper

Kromuskit?  Are these the recoiless rifles, some of which, those with "C" serial numbers, were made by Firestone in Canada?


----------



## armchair

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Kromuskit?  Are these the recoiless rifles, some of which, those with "C" serial numbers, were made by Firestone in Canada?


 The source I have give Dominion Engineering Works of Canada building 1,238 57mm recoilless guns,
as there was no production facilities available in the USA.


----------



## redleafjumper

Thanks armchair, what is the source for the manufacturer of those recoiless rifles?  I remember reading somewhere that it was Firestone, but the aluminum in the old mess tins is helping me forget where!

Here is another question:

In WW2, a device called "porpoise" played a small part in winning the war.   What was porpoise?


----------



## muffin

Are you referring to the mini-sub class "Porpoise?"

The six vessels of the Porpoise class were completed between 1932 and 1938. Three more were originally ordered but were cancelled in 1941, when the need was for much smaller boats for the Mediterranean. They were able to act as minelayers and carried fifty MkXIV mines insides the casing on top of the pressure hull. The mines were loaded onto an 'endless' chain and laid via doors in the stern. The boats of the class served in all theatres from home waters to the West Indies, Mediterranean and Far east. Five were lost in various ways, with Rorqual, deployed to the Eastern Fleet in 1944, the only survivor of the war. Among her other tasks, Rorqual managed to lay 1,284 mines during the war. Grampus was sunk by the Italian torpedo-boats Clio and Circe off Augusta 24 June 1940; Narwhal went missing off Norway in July 1940; Cachalot was rammed by the Italian torpedo-boat Papa of Cyrenaica on 4 August 1941; Seal  was damaged by a mine before surrendering to the Germans in the Kattegat/Skagerrak May 1940 - she was re-commissioned by the Germans as the UB.A, but was bombed at Kiel; Porpoise herself was bombed and sunk by Japanese aircraft in the Malacca Strait on 19 Jan 1945 - the last British boat to be lost in the war.

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/chalcraft/sm/miscclass.html


----------



## redleafjumper

A great answer muffin, but I am looking for something much less complex than a mini-sub.  Another try?


----------



## muffin

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Another try?



Ok  Perhaps the Porppoise Single Hose underwater breathing apparatus?

Over several years of trial and development, Ted Eldred came up with a totally different scuba regulator system by using only one hose from the regulator mounted on the cylinder to feed the diver. Exhausted air escaped at a valve located on the diver’s mouthpiece, thus eliminating the second hose present in the “AQUALUNG”, which returned exhaust air to exit at the regulator on the cylinder, behind the diver’s head. He named this single hose regulator the “PORPOISE” and made frequent improvements during production years, including vacuum assist, to “deliver” air more effortlessly to the diver. *Ted, together with WW2 Clearance Diver Commander Maurice Batterham, set up the Breathing Appliance Company in Melbourne, to mass produce the “PORPOISE” single-hose scuba gear, eventually winning over the Royal Australian Navy, who adopted the new “PORPOISE” scuba gear. *The Australian pearling industry also shrugged off cumbersome helmet diving gear, in favour of the light-weight freedom of beautifully built “PORPOISE” hookah units.

http://www.divetheblue.net/article.php?id=1022


----------



## redleafjumper

Hey muffin, now that's one I was not aware of - it still isn't the porpoise that I am seeking.  It is definitely water-related...  
As a hint, this device played a role in the Normandy landings.


----------



## DG-41

Do you mean the bag carried by US Paratroopers?

Or do you mean the #2 Mk1 Ammo sledge as issued on Sherman, Cromwell, and Churchill?

BTW - 100th page! Do I get a prize or somthin'?

DG


----------



## muffin

Ah yes... the ammo sledge - porpoise was a common name for equipment during WW2 ! 
I am not familiar with the bag though.

British Porpoise Ammunition Sledge  	 
Details:

Concern over the need to have ample ammunition of all types available on the beaches following the landings on D-Day lead to the ingenious development of this ammunition sledge.

This 13.5 feet long shallow metal sledge had two watertight compartments and carried a varied range of ammunition which could include a mixture of either .30cal, 50cal. 7.92mm , 6pdr.,17pdr., 25pdr. 75mm, 95mm or 105mm shells.

They were towed behind most of the British and Canadian assault vehicles throughout D-Day including the Churchill AVRE's, Cromwells, Centaurs, Deep Wading Shermans Mk. III, Mk.V & Firefly Vc and the M7 Priest & Sexton SP's.

Attatched to the towing vehicle via telescopic towbars, they sat under the vehicle on the LCT's before being dragged onto the beaches and dropped above the high water line in areas already cleared by Flail Tanks. From here they were to be attatched to Halftracks for deployment, however the towing AFV often dragged them off the beaches and inland.


----------



## redleafjumper

Jackpot!  There are many porpoises, but yes, the ammunition sledge is the correct answer.  Congrats on opening page 100.  I believe that this is the biggest thread on army.ca!


----------



## armchair

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Thanks armchair, what is the source for the manufacturer of those recoiless rifles?  I remember reading somewhere that it was Firestone, but the aluminum in the old mess tins is helping me forget where!
> 
> Here is another question:
> 
> In WW2, a device called "porpoise" played a small part in winning the war.   What was porpoise?


Page 184 The Illustrated Encyclopedia Of Artillery  by Ian V.Hogg  C/W 1987


----------



## armchair

Questions I do not know the answers too. 
When did they change the name from Militia to Reserves?
Do rifle regiments still use black for there insignia?
On parade do rifle regiment form up on the  flanks?
Traditional Light Infantry had faster march pace than other Infantry is this sill true?


----------



## larry Strong

armchair said:
			
		

> Questions I do not know the answers too.
> *When did they change the name from Militia to Reserves*?
> Do rifle regiments still use black for there insignia?
> On parade do rifle regiment form up on the  flanks?
> Traditional Light Infantry had faster march pace than other Infantry is this sill true?



They never changed it, All the older land Regts, are still the Militia, and the newer one's like the Comms, Air Force and Navy are called Reserve. Thats the way it was explained to me a long time ago.


----------



## geo

after the whackoes in the US started to give the term "militia" a bad name, started to see a lot more use of the term Reserve when describing our part time troops.

Definitions
militia:
civilians trained as soldiers but not part of the regular army 
organized armed forces of an area subject to a call to arms in an emergency
a group of civilians trained as soldiers who serve full time only in emergencies
A citizen army; a military organization formed by local citizens to serve in emergencies.
The part-time civilian military force used in Great Britain, Upper Canada and the USA

reserves:
armed forces that are not on active duty but can be called in an emergency 

The Cdn militia has a proud history

Air reserve is very much different from the Army variety... much more like the 10/90 battalions that the infantry tried out many years ago
Comm reserve does not have the same goal or mission as the other green part timers.
Naval reserve..... couldn't tell ya.


----------



## Spr.Earl

I are still a Militia Plug and proud of it.
In Canada we still have the Militia,the few,the proud.


----------



## geo

advertising appears to refer to Militia as "army reserves"
Militia units being filled with reservists (aka - militia plugs)


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Militia was officially dropped in 1940 and reinstated, I believe, after Unification - in an "official" sense. Unofficially, it has always been "the Militia".

Up until 1940, the official titles were Permanent Active Militia (Permanent Force) and Non-Permanent Active Militia (the reserves).  In 1940 it was changed to Canadian Army (Active) and Canadian Army (Reserve).  After the war, the active force became the Canadian Army (Regular) IIRC.

After Unification the Army ceased to exist, and it became Force Mobile Command, part of the new integrated Canadian Armed Forces.  The land force reserves went back to being called "Militia" officially.

Rifle Regiments only use black insignia on ceremonial dress, other uniforms from Combat to DEU are CF standard.  They do wear black buttons and shoulder belts for dress parades, though. Can you even carry a C7 at the "trail"?  They may still do some of the rifle drill - ie "Look to your Front!" rather than "Attention", standing at ease without a word of command, etc. depending on the Regiment.


----------



## BernDawg

The official pace for the quick march in the CF is 120 paces to the minute and that's universal (perhaps some of the rifle regt's in the reserves have a quicker pace?).  In England the light division marches faster (140 IIRC).  While we were there with 3VP the Guards Regt kept telling us to slow down (they march around 116).  They were quite concerned to be following a Corps of Drums from a light infantry unit.


----------



## geo

Have seen a couple of people from the Brockville Rifles march..... when not accompanied by a band - looks more like a duckwalk to the unitiated (IMHO)
a double quick march.... 140 sounds about right... though if you ask their members - they prefer the more sedate 120


----------



## BernDawg

Yes. I would think the more storied regiments would adhere to tradition.


----------



## armchair

Thanks to veryone who answered my questions


----------



## muffin

ok... time for a new question..

The first Canadian casualties of the Korean war were soldiers who never got to see the battlefield. What happened to them (where and when) and what Unit did they serve with?

muffin


----------



## Michael Dorosh

muffin said:
			
		

> ok... time for a new question..
> 
> The first Canadian casualties of the Korean war were soldiers who never got to see the battlefield. What happened to them (where and when) and what Unit did they serve with?
> 
> muffin



Only thing I can find on Google is this, about the PPCLI, but they did see the battlefield...."On Feb. 22, the Canadians suffer their first casualties when four men are killed and one wounded in a Chinese attack on a hill simply known by its altitude in metres; 444."


----------



## muffin

Good guess but no... hint: they never got to leave Canada


----------



## old medic

Train Wreck, Canadian National troop train collided with the Eastbound Continental CN No. 2 passenger train near Canoe   River B. C. on  November 21, 1950.   The unit was 2 RCHA, who lost 17 members.


----------



## HItorMiss

Thats gotta be it!


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Yeah, that rings a bell, Melady discusses it in his history.  Gotta love them tricky questions.  

Okay, here's another Korean War question - what type of AFV was the first squadron of LdSH (RC) in Korea equipped with initially after arrival in Korea?


----------



## muffin

Yep that's the one oldmedic


----------



## HItorMiss

Ok I'm going on gut instinct here with my answer Micheal

Was it the WW2 vintage Kangaroo?


----------



## redleafjumper

I thought they had Sherman M4 "easy 8s".


----------



## HItorMiss

Whoops silly me, the Kangaroo was and Infantry carrier not an AFV, I withdraw my answer


----------



## Michael Dorosh

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> I thought they had Sherman M4 "easy 8s".



You are both wrong.  It was not the Kangaroo (neither Ram nor defrocked Priest) and it was not any kind of Sherman (you are thinking of the M4A2E8).


----------



## George Wallace

Are you thinking of Greyhounds?


----------



## Old Sweat

I believe the squadron first had tank destroyers, that is an open-toppped, lightly armoured, self-propelled anti-tank guns.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> I believe the squadron first had tank destroyers, that is an open-toppped, lightly armoured, self-propelled anti-tank guns.



M10, you are correct sir.  There is a photo here:

http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/mediawiki-1.5.5/index.php?title=Blood_on_the_Hills


----------



## vonGarvin

Would it be the "anglicised" version of the M-10 Wolverine, aka "Achilles" in the commonwealth?  I think it was the M10A1, armed with a 75mm gun.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

vonGarvin said:
			
		

> Would it be the "anglicised" version of the M-10 Wolverine, aka "Achilles" in the commonwealth?  I think it was the M10A1, armed with a 75mm gun.



Good questio.....hey...wait a minute.....are you sneaking a follow up question in on us???  :rage:

Not sure what the designation was by 1951 - I know the M10 (or Achilles) in WW II had either a high velocity 76mm gun (in US and CW service) or possibly a 17-pounder?  Did they switch to 75mm's after the war?


----------



## vonGarvin

I totally forgot that the CW had either 76mm or the more effective 17 pounder.  I only imagine that they were 17 pounders ("left overs" from WWII)


----------



## Michael Dorosh

vonGarvin said:
			
		

> I totally forgot that the CW had either 76mm or the more effective 17 pounder.  I only imagine that they were 17 pounders ("left overs" from WWII)



Yes, but....US armor was used by the Canadians in Korea - jeeps and trucks, too.  I don't think we shipped our own stuff over there but rather borrowed from the Yanks.  IIRC the M4A2E8s the Strathcona's eventually wound up with were from US war stocks.


----------



## vonGarvin

Interesting.  I suppose that the "model" of M10 would make an excellent "question of the hour" ;-)


----------



## redleafjumper

I have seen a photo of a Canadian M10 in Korea.  It was armed with a US-style 76mm gun, so it was not a Wolverine (17 lb'er).  The Shermans that replaced the M10s issued to the LdSH, due to concerns about the open top, were in my understanding, M4A3 Shermans, not M4A2 (diesels).  Apparently, Canada did buy some ex-USMC diesel M4A2s after the war which were used for training in Canada and ultimately ended up with various militia units.  I seem to recall one outside of the BCR Drill Hall on Beatty Street in Vancouver.

Does anyone have any more infomation?

(edited to fix typo)


----------



## geo

weren't the Sherman with 17 pounders Fireflies?


----------



## geo

wolverine.... as a SP variant


----------



## Michael Dorosh

geo said:
			
		

> weren't the Sherman with 17 pounders Fireflies?



Yes, or technically 

Sherman I(c)

Sherman V(c)


----------



## larry Strong

There's an "Easy 8" outside the Legion in Olds Ab.


When and where did the entire Canadian Fleet deploy and strong arm a foreign country, to help a Canadian Bank.



Off to work, will be back in the AM


----------



## vonGarvin

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> There's an "Easy 8" outside the Legion in Olds Ab.
> 
> 
> When and where did the entire Canadian Fleet deploy and strong arm a foreign country, to help a Canadian Bank.
> 
> 
> 
> Off to work, will be back in the AM


Costa Rica, 1921.  HMCS Aurora, Patriot and Patrician deployed (again, virtually the entire fleet) to help the Royal Bank of Canada settle a dispute over oil concessions.


----------



## larry Strong

Damn I was just checking on my way out the door. Thats correct and my source was the "Legion Magazine' that came in the mail today.


A tradition of "peacekeepiong" eh! Only in the minds of the NDP


----------



## vonGarvin

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> Damn I was just checking on my way out the door. Thats correct and my source was the "Legion Magazine' that came in the mail today.
> 
> 
> A tradition of "peacekeepiong" eh! Only in the minds of the NDP


LOL: the great myth of modern Canada "My name is Joe.....I believe in peacekeeping, not warmaking"....LOL


----------



## armchair

After WWII which province was the first to dedicate natural features like lakes hill and steams as lasting war memorials, 
By naming them after the war dead from that province? 
And which party was in power and who was it leader?


----------



## monika

I swear that in high school we were told it was Saskatchewan, with Tommy Douglas of the CCF as Premier.


----------



## armchair

TMM said:
			
		

> I swear that in high school we were told it was Saskatchewan, with Tommy Douglas of the CCF as Premier.


You right it was Tommy Douglas and CCF.He and his government named over 3,000 natural features of Saskatchewan for 
the fallen of the the province.One of those was my Uncle Lance Corporal James C. Kellogg Killed in Normandy 18/07/44
he served with the Regina Rifle Regiment.He has a chain of lakes named after him
This is just another reason why Tommy Douglas is the Greatest Canadian.


----------



## R711

Ok Since this is my frist time posting here. What was the last British and Canadian regt to carry thier colors into battle with them and what war was it?
R711 OUT


----------



## Michael Dorosh

R711 said:
			
		

> Ok Since this is my frist time posting here. What was the last British and Canadian regt to carry thier colors into battle with them and what war was it?
> R711 OUT



Must be a trick question - unless he means to say "Colours".


----------



## 043

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Must be a trick question - unless he means to say "Colours".


From Websters:
One entry found for colour.


Main Entry: col·our 
Pronunciation: 'k&-l&r
chiefly British variant of COLOR   

I guess you only thought there was only one spelling of the word.


----------



## Rhibwolf

In the British Army, Colours were last carried into action by the 58th Northamptonshire Regiment during the First Anglo-Boer War at the battle of Laings Nek in January 1881. The British Secretary of War announced in The House of Commons on 29 July 1891,  “That,  in consequence of the altered formation of attack  and the extended range of fire,  the colours should not in future be taken with the battalion on active service.”
The last Canadian regiment to carry its Colours in battle was Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry. The original camp Colour was hand-made by Princess Patricia and presented to the Regiment in August 1914. The Colours were carried by the Regiment throughout the First World War and in 1919, it was consecrated as the Regimental Colour, and is now located in The Hall of Honour in the Regimental Museum within the Museum of the Regiments in Calgary, Alberta, Canada.


----------



## vonGarvin

2023 said:
			
		

> From Websters:
> One entry found for colour.
> Main Entry: col·our
> Pronunciation: 'k&-l&r
> chiefly British variant of COLOR
> I guess you only thought there was only one spelling of the word.


But the word in question wasn't "colour" but "colours".  
"colours:
n 1: a distinguishing emblem; "his tie proclaimed his school colors" [syn: colors] 2: a flag that shows its nationality [syn: colors]"
Note the "colors" is also acceptable.


----------



## 043

vonGarvin said:
			
		

> But the word in question wasn't "colour" but "colours".
> "colours:
> n 1: a distinguishing emblem; "his tie proclaimed his school colors" [syn: colors] 2: a flag that shows its nationality [syn: colors]"
> Note the "colors" is also acceptable.



Oh you mean Colors?

5 a : an identifying badge, pennant, or flag -- usually used in plural <a ship sailing under Swedish colors


----------



## geo

2023....... those are the things we don't have..... cause for the Engineers to have some, they'd have to be immense and the officers required to carry em would have to be 10 feet tall.... and there is a present shortage of 10 ft tall officers.


----------



## 043

geo said:
			
		

> 2023....... those are the things we don't have..... cause for the Engineers to have some, they'd have to be immense and the officers required to carry em would have to be 10 feet tall.... and there is a present shortage of 10 ft tall officers.



Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## monika

geo said:
			
		

> and there is a present shortage of 10 ft tall officers.



Well then move them closer to the reactors at Deep River.


----------



## geo

nah.... those people glow in the dark

:warstory: :warstory: :warstory:
the thing about the 10ft tall Officer ties into an old story from the Royal Engineers
It would appear that one of Queen Victoria's sons was an officer in the RE but was teased by officers from the Guards & other Regiments about the RE not having "theirs"

The story goes that he wrote "mum" and asked.... and she asked her military advisers about "making it so", The adviser informed the Queen that if all battle honours to which the RE were entitled to was stitched onto a set of colours, it would require a Flag of monstrous proportions and an officer 10 ft tall to carry it.....

It was proposed that, in lieu of coulours, the RE would thereafter carry the single honour of "UBIQUE" (everywhere) ... to which the Queen gave her approval

NOTE: the CME "UBIQUE" should not be mustaken for the artillery "UBIQUE" which stands for "all over the place" :warstory:


----------



## Cloud Cover

What RCAF aircraft types operated from Alameda NAS in San Francisco Bay in the early 1960's, and why?


----------



## larry Strong

geo said:
			
		

> nah.... those people glow in the dark
> 
> :warstory: :warstory: :warstory:
> the thing about the 10ft tall Officer ties into an old story from the Royal Engineers
> It would appear that one of Queen Victoria's sons was an officer in the RE but was teased by officers from the Guards & other Regiments about the RE not having "theirs"
> 
> The story goes that he wrote "mum" and asked.... and she asked her military advisers about "making it so", The adviser informed the Queen that if all battle honours to which the RE were entitled to was stitched onto a set of colours, it would require a Flag of monstrous proportions and an officer 10 ft tall to carry it.....
> 
> It was proposed that, in lieu of coulours, the RE would thereafter carry the single honour of "UBIQUE" (everywhere) ... to which the Queen gave her approval
> 
> NOTE: the CME "UBIQUE" should not be mustaken for the artillery "UBIQUE" which stands for "all over the place" :warstory:



Same thing applies for the Artillery, our guns are our colors/colours (just to be PC) ;D


----------



## geo

Ohhhh.... I thought I adressed that part bottom line of my post 

Chimo!


----------



## larry Strong

Ohhhhh....I see now, I thought you were talking about our fall of shot :

Along these line's, during the Napoleonic Wars cannon were designated by the weight of their shot with the 12lbr being one of the sizes, who's "12lb" shot was heaviest, and who was the lightest of the following cities/countries, if the 100lbs of England and Ireland were the Standard:
Amsterdam;
Paris;
Frankfurt;
Denmark;
Naples
Russia.


----------



## TCBF

What Canadian armoured vehicle entered service with a right-hand feed .50 BMG?


----------



## redleafjumper

Is that the Lynx?


----------



## TCBF

Yes, the Lynx.  they were all changed to LH feed in the early eighties - which meant we no longer had to take the belts out of the cans and then layer them to feed RH.

Tom


----------



## Michael Dorosh

2023 said:
			
		

> From Websters:
> One entry found for colour.
> 
> 
> Main Entry: col·our
> Pronunciation: 'k&-l&r
> chiefly British variant of COLOR
> 
> I guess you only thought there was only one spelling of the word.



Sorry, which chapter of the QR&Os did this Webster chap write, again?  ???


----------



## redleafjumper

Websters!?  That American dictionary?  Yech - What about the good old O.E.D.?

What hobby of Rommel's was taken advantage of by the SS when he complained about SS troops looting in Milan?


----------



## vonGarvin

TCBF said:
			
		

> What Canadian armoured vehicle entered service with a right-hand feed .50 BMG?




(My guess)


----------



## rampage800

TCBF

The right handed feed question, I know you got the Lynx but what about the Grizzly ? That was or still is a R feed.


----------



## vonGarvin

rampage800 said:
			
		

> TCBF
> 
> The right handed feed question, I know you got the Lynx but what about the Grizzly ? That was or still is a R feed.


I believe you are correct.  The GPMG feeds from the left and the .50 _must_ feed from the other side (eg: right hand side).


----------



## BernDawg

Redleaf:
     Shot in the dark.  Collecting antiques? ;D


----------



## geo

Rommel was involved in the Italian theatre?
(funny - never realized).... was his hobby Wine Collecting?


----------



## redleafjumper

According to Rommel's biography, when Himmler asked how things were going in Milan, Rommel replied, something to the effect of, "Much better now that I have kicked out the SS!" He forwarded a list of names of SS officers who had engaged in various looting and other transgressions to the SS General Officer commanding who, in response, and knowing that Rommel was a devoted stamp collector, a fine collection that had been looted by the SS.  

The book doesn't mention whether or not he kept it...


----------



## redleafjumper

Time for a new question.  Who wrote this stanza and what battle or event are these lines in reference to:

'Few, few shall part where many meet;
The snow shall be their winding sheet;
And every turf beneath their feet
Shall be a soldier's sepulchre'


----------



## Nfld Sapper

This battle was fought December 2, 1800, between the Austrians under Archduke John and the French under Moreau, in a forest near Munich. Hohenlinden means "High Limetrees." 

Francis T. Palgrave, ed. (1824–1897). The Golden Treasury.  1875. 
  
T. Campbell 
  
CCXV. Hohenlinden 
  
ON Linden, when the sun was low,   
All bloodless lay the untrodden snow;   
And dark as winter was the flow   
    Of Iser, rolling rapidly.   
   
But Linden saw another sight,          5 
When the drum beat at dead of night,   
Commanding fires of death to light   
    The darkness of her scenery.   
   
By torch and trumpet fast array'd   
Each horseman drew his battle-blade,   10 
And furious every charger neigh'd   
    To join the dreadful revelry.   
   
Then shook the hills with thunder riven;   
Then rush'd the steed to battle driven;   
And louder than the bolts of heaven   15 
    Far flash'd the red artillery.   
   
But redder yet that light shall glow   
On Linden's hills of stainèd snow;   
And bloodier yet the torrent flow   
    Of Iser, rolling rapidly.   20 
   
'Tis morn; but scarce yon level sun   
Can pierce the war-clouds rolling dun,   
Where furious Frank and fiery Hun   
    Shout in their sulphurous canopy.   
   
The combat deepens. On, ye brave   25 
Who rush to glory, or the grave!   
Wave, Munich! all thy banners wave,   
    And charge with all thy chivalry!   
   
Few, few shall part where many meet!   
The snow shall be their winding-sheet,   30 
And every turf beneath their feet   
    Shall be a soldier's sepulchre.   
  

http://www.bartleby.com/106/215.html


----------



## Danjanou

Thomas Campbell (1774–1844)

On the Battle of Hohenlinden (1803)
On Linden when the sun was low, 
All bloodless lay th' untrodden snow, 
And dark as winter was the flow 
Of Iser rolling rapidly.

But Linden shew'd another sight,
When the drum beat at dead of night,
Commanding fires of death to light
The darkness of her scenery.
By torch and trumpet-sound array'd, 
Each horseman drew his battle-blade, 
And furious every charger neigh'd, 
To join the dreadful revelry.

Then shook the hills with thunder riven,
Then rush'd the steeds to battle driven,
And vollying, like the bolts of heaven,
Far flash'd the red artillery.
And redder still those fires shall glow, 
On Linden's hills of purpled snow; 
And bloodier still shall be the flow 
Of Iser rolling rapidly.

'Tis morn; but scarce yon level sun 
Can pierce the war-cloud rolling dun, 
Where furious Frank and fiery Hun
Shout, mid' their sulphurous canopy.
The combat deepens—on, ye brave! 
Who rush to glory and the grave; 
Wave, Munich, all thy banners wave,
And charge with all thy chivalry.

Oh! few shall part where many meet, 
The snow shall be your winding sheet, 
And every turf beneath your feet
Shall mark the soldiers' cemetry.

The Battle of Hohenlinden http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hohenlinden


----------



## Danjanou

Dammit, my serve froze in mid post and Newf beat me to it :rage:


----------



## Nfld Sapper

lol it happens to all of us sometimes Danjanou


----------



## redleafjumper

Very good!  It is amazing how fast the old search engines can work.

Here's a follow-up question (as you might guess, it was in the breech...).  What other nasty Napoleonic battle has been compared with the battle of Hohenlinden, using that same stanza?


----------



## redleafjumper

Well, there has yet to be any nibbles on that question, so here is a hint.  That battle took place in 1807 in the winter, and the victor was a famous cavalry commander.  (That should be nearly a give-away...).


----------



## Rhibwolf

Eylau, fought in mid winter, in 1807, was the most important and bloody one that had yet occurred. France and Russia had never before opposed such strength to each other, and a complete victory on either side would have settled the fate of Europe. Bonaparte remained in possession of the field, and that was all—no victory was ever so like a defeat.


----------



## redleafjumper

Yes indeed, Rhibwolf, that was Eylau, often compared with Hohenlinden and in this case by noted historian Philip Haythornthwaite.  See
Haythornthwaite, Philip J. Die Hard! Famous Napoleonic Battles (London: Cassell Military Classics, 1999), p. 56.


So, another question, who was the officer that captured the last German commander of Gross Paris?  Where did the capture take place and who was that last German commander of Gross Paris?



(modified to correct bibliographic entry)


----------



## Rhibwolf

General von Choltitz, commander of Gross Paris, in his Hotel Meurice headquarters, by Lieutenant Henri Karcher of the army of General de Gaulle.
Kind of sounds like Clue, Col Mustard, in the billiard room, with the lead pipe.

My turn, with no apologies for the nautical turn:
According to Bernard Brodie, there were only five great revolutions in naval development since the days of the Spanish Armada, all of which occurred within fifty years, what were they?


----------



## redleafjumper

Yes, Rhibwolf has it right.  Choltitz's capture and the fall of Paris are detailed in the thorough and interesting book, Is Paris Burning?
It was very like the response to a Clue mystery!

I will try a guess on Brodie's thoughts on the five great revolutions  to sea power:

a.  Effective submarines (torpedoes) and sonar
b.  Armoured ships
c.  Improved long range gunnery
d. Improved propulsion systems that allow increased speed without reliance on wind
e. Aircraft carriers

Howe's that for a guess?  (The 'Howe' is actually an intended nautical pun.)


----------



## Rhibwolf

Really good guess, actually.
They were steam propulsion, the iron hull, armour and great ordinance, submarine vessels, and naval aircraft.
Bravo Zulu


----------



## redleafjumper

Thanks Rhibwolf.  I figured that it would be pretty close.

Who said "...the Canadian Corps paid the price of victory in shells and not in life."  And, of what battle was this person speaking?


----------



## vonGarvin

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Thanks Rhibwolf.  I figured that it would be pretty close.
> 
> Who said "...the Canadian Corps paid the price of victory in shells and not in life."  And, of what battle was this person speaking?


Currie?  About Vimy?


----------



## redleafjumper

Von Garvin, it is a reasonable guess, but it was neither Currie nor Vimy.  It is the right war, and you are warm.


----------



## Old Sweat

I think the source of the quotation was BGen AGL McNaughton and he was referring either to the Canal du Nord or Valenciennes.


----------



## scoutfinch

I believe it was said by BGen McNaughton about Gen Currie at Passchendaele?  Maybe??


----------



## vonGarvin

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Von Garvin, it is a reasonable guess, but it was neither Currie nor Vimy.  It is the right war, and you are warm.


Someone else about pashendale?  (I know, I know, passchendaele or some other gosh awful way to spell it)


----------



## redleafjumper

Some great guesses, the answer is that it was Andy McNaughton and he was speaking of Valciennes, so we'll give old sweat the credit for this one.

This one should be relatively easy...

What did Napoleon Bonaparte have for dinner on the night of the battle on 14 June 1800?


----------



## monika

Chicken Marengo?


----------



## vonGarvin

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> What did Napoleon Bonaparte have for dinner on the night of the battle on 14 June 1800?


Chicken Pot Pie?

I actually cheated and googled: Chicken Marengo
"Chicken Marengo is named after the battle of Marengo, 14 June 1800, at which Napoleon defeated Austria; it was created on the battlefield by itself by Dunand, Napoleon’s master chef... Bonaparte, who on battle days ate nothing until the fight was over, had gone forward with his general duties and was a long way from his supply wagons. Seeing his enemies defeated, he asked Dunand to prepare dinner for him. Chef at once sent men of the quartermaster’s staff and ordnance corps in search of provisions. All they could find were three eggs, four tomatoes, six crayfish, a small hen, a little garlic, some oil and a saucepan. Using his bread ration, Dunand first made a panada with oil and water, and then, having drawn and jointed the chicken, browned it in oil and fried eggs in the same oil with a few cloves of garlic and the tomatoes. He poured over this mixture some water laced with brandy (borrowed from general flask) and put the crayfish on top to cook in the steam. The dish was served on a tin plate, the chicken surrounded by the fried eggs and crayfish, with the sauce poured over it. Bonaparte, having feasted upon it, said to Dunand: “You must feed me like this after every battle!” "
Source:http://heritage.dolce.com/property/prop_fnb_recipies_search.php


----------



## redleafjumper

Oui TMM, c'est ca!  (and thanks to VonGarvin for the details)  Napoleon had 'chicken a la Marengo' on the night of the Battle of Marengo.


At Badajoz the defenders used devices called "chevaux de frise".  What was the purpose of this device and what was it?


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

It "chevaux de frise" is basically a obstacle  made of a central spar (or log) with spikes radiating out from it. It was effective primarily against cavalry. It also has a usage dating to mediaeval times. Interestingly, it also refers to the Czech Hedgehog anti-tank obstacles used in the Atlantic Wall. Nothing new under the sun.


----------



## redleafjumper

A good answer by AJFitzpatrick.  The ones at Badajoz were used to block the breaches in the walls.  The wooden beams were chained at each end and the "spikes" on these prickly obstacles were sword blades.

This one might be more difficult:

At Southhampton in January 1919, there were some troubles with demobilisation.  Who was the officer who solved the situation at Southhampton in 1919, quickly, fairly and effectively with full regard for the needs of the troops?  How did he do it?


----------



## Rhibwolf

Trenchard, but I dont think he did anything fairly or for the needs of the troops.  He surrounded them with armed soldiers and MPs, threatened them, and threw some 200 ringleaders in jail and hosed another 100 down with cold water until they broke. 

From the trenches and trenchard, to the trenchers.

Who is Jack Dusty,  what is Duff, and why is it spelled that way.


----------



## redleafjumper

Hmmm, yet another nautical question.  Let's see "Duff" is any sticky pudding, the reason for the spelling is unknown to me, and a Jack Dusty is the term for a navy supply tech.

As for Trenchard, according to Trenchard Man of Vision by Andrew Boyle, the General was instructed by Sir William Robertson, through his staff to head to Southampton and stop the rioting of an estimated 20,000 soldiers who were refusing to obey orders.  He attended personally and was jostled and then returned with 250 armed soldiers, including several MPs.  On interviewing a L/Cpl who gave himself up, Trenchard discovered that the men seemed to have some grievances that bore listening to and were not likely hard-core mutineers.  His impression was that the mere sight of armed soldiers would put a stop to the matter.  He put out the lights in the area and when his troops arrived moved them to the Customs shed.  He formed them up and had them load in full view of the mutineers.  He invited the mutineers to surrender and quickly arrested one sergeant who tried to start things up.  The others promptly surrendered and he spent the rest of the day  listening to their statements and recording their grievances.  "The majority," Trenchard noted, "were quite ready to return to France but naturally objected to being sent back as prisoners for having overstayed their leave by perhaps a couple of days."

Trenchard was more concerned that the men had been informed that they would be discharged and then were told that they would not be and would be sent to France.

Some were discharged conditionally, most were exonerated as veterans who deserved better after serving their country in France.  107 were placed under open arrest for instigating a rebellion among 5,000 good men.  Trenchard had the docks under control, but had to use firehoses to winkle out those still defying authority behind barricaded doors of the "inaptly named rest camp."  Trenchard stayed on to keep the peace, brought in more NCOs and officers and gradually introduced "...a regime of parades, inspections, fatigues and games."  Thus ended the Southampton dock riots.  No loss of life and a return to duty for most.  


Who urged Archduke Ferdinand Maximillian of Austria into the foolish Mexican venture that ended in his death?


----------



## redleafjumper

I did a google search on this "duff" term and the results as to its origin and spelling were most interesting.  This information is taken from the Phrase Finder: http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/397300.html

Up the duff

Meaning

Euphemism for pregnant. Used most commonly, although not exclusively, to describe unplanned pregnancy.

Origin

The phrase doesn't appear in print until 1941 Sydney John Baker's 'Dictionary of Australian Slang':

    " Duff, up the (of a woman), pregnant."

Duff isn't a common word and seems an odd choice for a colloquial phrase. It took a rather roundabout route...

As the phrase means pregnant it shouldn't come as a major surprise that for the origin we need look no further than the penis. As with many English phrases that refer to sexual activity we dive straight into a world of euphemism and there are several obscuring layers here between penis and pregnancy.

One of the numerous slang terms for the sexual organs, or more commonly specifically the penis, is pudding. This has a long history, going back to at least the 18th century, as here from 1719:

    Thomas D'Urfey, 'Wit and mirth: or pills to purge melancholy, being a collection of ballads and songs 1719':

    "I made a request to prepare again, That I might continue in Love with the strain Of his Pudding".

A slang term for male masturbation, which leaves little to the imagination - 'pull one's pudding', has been known since at least the 19th century.

There is a related phrase for pregnancy - 'in the pudding club', and it turns out that this and 'up the duff' are essentially the same phrase. By 1890 Barrère & Leland, in their Dictionary of Slang, defined the term pudding club:

    "A woman in the family way is said to be in the pudding club."

Note that in Victorian times a definition of a euphemistic term for pregnancy relied on another euphemism.

Dough is another word for pudding and duff is an alternative form and pronunciation of dough. That was in use by 1840, as here from R. H. Dana in Before the Mast:

    "To enhance the value of the Sabbath to the crew, they are allowed on that day a pudding, or, as it is called, a ‘duff’."

So, we travel this route - (up the) duff -> dough -> pudding -> penis -> pregnant.

The more recent 'bun in the oven', another slang phrase for pregnant, may originate this way too.


----------



## Rhibwolf

Brilliant research on the pregnancy aspect...... laughed a bit at that one, its odd, but very very logical, considering the "bun in the oven" part.  
Jack Dusty would have been an apprentice commissary officer, and in particular, the youngster in charge of flour stores - hence dusty.  These days, with commisaries being replace by Log Os, and apprentices being replaced by Victuallers, the title would indeed belong to the supply technician doing the dutis of victualler. 
In Naval parlance, Duff is simply any form of dessert.  It came from the (likely) common mistake of assuming that if Tough was pronounced "tuff", and rough was pronounced "ruff", it stood to reason that dough should be called "duff."

As for the ill fated mexican thing for our poor Erzherzog Ferdinand Max (later the Kaiser Maximilian of Mexico), it was that dastardly Napoleon III who backed him.


----------



## monika

vonGarvin said:
			
		

> I actually cheated and googled: Chicken Marengo



Tsk, tsk, tsk. You should have just watched the classic Julia Child episode where she whips out her grandfather's cutlass.


----------



## redleafjumper

While it is true that Nap backed Maximillian, there was another person who passionately urged him to take the offer and go to Mexico.  It is that person I seek in your answer.  Thanks for the rest of the dough/duff saga, Rhibwolf.


----------



## redleafjumper

It seems that the question about the person urging on Maximillian was more difficult than I expected.  Here is a giveaway clue:

She died insane in 1927.


----------



## Rhibwolf

That made it a bit easier.
She was Marie Amelie Augustine Victoire Clementine Leopoldine, christened Marie Charlotte Amelie, and commonly referred to as Carlota.
Carlota was bored and dissatisfied at Miramar and was burning with ambition to be an Empress. 


Who were the first three whores of europe and who coined the phrase?


----------



## scoutfinch

Oh oh oh... I think I know this one, I think I do!!!!

It was Frederick the Great of Prussia speaking about Empress Maria Theresa (Austria) ,Empress Elizaveta Petrovna (Russia), and Mme. De Pompadour (France).

Am I right???? Am I? Am I??? Huh?  Am I?


----------



## Rhibwolf

Indeed you do, indeed it was, and indeed they were


----------



## monika

If it's okay, I'll ask the next one.

Which professional hockey player(started this season in NHL) was court martialled and found guilty?


----------



## redleafjumper

Carlota it was.  She urged poor Max to his eventual doom at the hands of the outraged Mexicans.

How did the Crittenden family truly epitomize the divisions in Kentucky about the American Civil War?

Oops, belay that one until the hockey player question is answered...


----------



## monika

TMM said:
			
		

> If it's okay, I'll ask the next one.
> 
> Which professional hockey player(started this season in NHL) was court martialled and found guilty?



For some reason, I could not edit this so I will need a new post to do this and make the question a bit easier:


Which professional hockey player(currently has an NHL contract but playing in a different league) was court martialled by the Red Army and found guilty?


----------



## monika

Since there's no answer after three days, I'll put you lot out of your misery:

Alexander Mogilny

Interesting read on the situation here


----------



## redleafjumper

Sorry TMM, I was looking, but I have never been much of a hockey fan (the court martial on the other hand...).

That brings us back to my question on the Crittendens, are there any takers on that one?


----------



## Marti

From what I've found:
John Crettenden was a senator who offered up a resolution that would preserve the Union through compromise, while both his sons ended up as generals on opposite sides of the war.

see: http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/critten.html


----------



## redleafjumper

That's correct Marti.  The Crittendens represented the various views in Kentucky - neutrality, as well as choosing sides in the civil war.  It really was brother against brother.

Who or what was the "grand old lady of no man's land?"


----------



## scoutfinch

Ohmigod... I know this one too!!!  I don't know why but I know the answer!!!

The Vicker's Machine Gun... 

I am sure Dr. Charters at UNB would be shocked that I (of all of his students he has ever taught) would actually remember that one!!!


----------



## redleafjumper

That's right scoutfinch, she's the vickers HMG.  Once fired for two weeks straight in testing stopping only to change belts and add water.
A wonderful piece of kit.

What was the primary weapon of the musketeers?


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

This is a trick question isn't it?

Matchlock musket

or do you mean Athos et al?


----------



## scoutfinch

"What was the primary weapon of the musketeers? "

Black hats with large round ears, crappy kids music and mickey mouse 'til death????

Ohhhh... that was MUSKETEERS not MOUSEKETEERS.  Sorry.  Don't know this one.


----------



## redleafjumper

We'll go with the matchlock musket, and even Athos and company, though rarely seen with them in the movies, would be armed with their matchlocks in battle.  The rapier was a back up weapon. 

What's a Belgian rattlesnake?


----------



## muffin

The Lewis Automatic Machine Gun?


----------



## redleafjumper

The Lewis gun it is!

What US Civil War Generals had their names used for tanks?


----------



## bLUE fOX

William T Sherman and I am hesitant to say Ulysses S. Grant


----------



## redleafjumper

So far, so good on tanks named for civil war generals, but there are more!

So far we have:

Sherman
Grant


----------



## George Wallace

There was also the LEE and the STUART.

Were there any Churchill's in the Civil War?  ;D


----------



## Centurian1985

I think you are thinking of the M3 Lee (named for Robert E Lee) but I dont rememebr if that was a US or British name.  

Hmmm. Arent all US tanks (and some IFV) named for famous generals?

I.E. Pershing, Patton, Sheridan, Walker, Chaffee, Abrams, Bradley

Hey wait a sec, is Sheridan another Civil War general?

Even the French have one - Leclerc


----------



## redleafjumper

Some good answers so far, remember that we are looking just for US civil war Generals for these tanks.  So far we have

Sherman,
Grant
Lee,
Stuart
Sheridan

Are there any more?


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

Well according to Wikipedia the M36 Tank destroyer is sometimes known as a 'Jackson'


----------



## redleafjumper

While not strictly speaking "a tank", it was one that was in my mind as well.

I think that's all of them, but I am happy to be corrected.


Can anyone name a US tank that is not named after a general?


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

Discounting US tanks without names ... and there are a lot of those
M22 Light Tank  'Locust' although the name originated with the British.


----------



## redleafjumper

Yes, the M22 locust is the one that I was thinking of. 

Anyone else have a question to pose?


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

What member of the Hockey Hall of Fame was killed in WWI and what unit did he serve in?


----------



## Danjanou

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Some good answers so far, remember that we are looking just for US civil war Generals for these tanks.  So far we have
> 
> Sherman,
> Grant
> Lee,
> Stuart
> Sheridan
> 
> Are there any more?



Technically it was the Brits who first started calling the M-3 medium tank the Grant and the later version the Lee ( of the other way round can never remebr which version came first). I don’t believe they ever nicknamed their M3 (and later M-5) light tanks the Stuart though. Most accounts I’ve seen refer to it as the Honey in British Service.


----------



## stukirkpatrick

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Some good answers so far, remember that we are looking just for US civil war Generals for these tanks.  So far we have
> 
> Sherman,
> Grant
> Lee,
> Stuart
> Sheridan
> 
> Are there any more?



Apparently there is this cancelled M8 "Buford" Armoured Gun System,http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m8-ags.htm  , http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_Buford,,00.htmlalthough it should be noted that it is not considered a "tank",  but it was another armoured vehicle intended to be named for a civil war general nonetheless.


----------



## Rhibwolf

This the fellow?
Hobart Amory Hare Baker, who captained Princeton's hockey and football teams, is a charter member of the United States Hockey Hall of Fame and one of a handful of Americans to be inducted into Canada's Hockey Hall of Fame, and is a member of Princeton's Hall of Fame, both football and hockey. He was killed during World War I at the age of 26.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Okay, what is this? (See picture above). Going for a specific answer to a very vague question.


----------



## geo

Uhhhh..... what is this?.....
Hmmm - Korea vintage pic of Patricia type in Coveralls (WW2 pattern webbing), Lee Enfield in one hand and herbie beater in the other - having a smoke in a cigarette holder made out of .....


----------



## Rhibwolf

Good general answer Geo, but to be even more specific, its http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/mediawiki-1.5.5/images/5/55/A213170.jpg
Mike, that close enough?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

having a smoke in a cigarette holder made out of .............a tip of a buffalo horn?


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

"What member of the Hockey Hall of Fame was killed in WWI and what unit did he serve in?"


			
				Rhibwolf said:
			
		

> This the fellow?
> Hobart Amory Hare Baker, who captained Princeton's hockey and football teams, is a charter member of the United States Hockey Hall of Fame and one of a handful of Americans to be inducted into Canada's Hockey Hall of Fame, and is a member of Princeton's Hall of Fame, both football and hockey. He was killed during World War I at the age of 26.


Wasn't thinking of Hobey Baker but yes he does count. Who is the other one, Clue: He won Stanley Cups


----------



## Cloud Cover

Michael: I think he has dispossessed some poor Chinese fellow of his ox horn cigarette holder, and quite possibly is wearing somebody else's light canvas jacket or heavy shirt.


----------



## Centurian1985

Useless trivia: 
the first shot of the 1991 Gulf war was fired before the war even started - any guesses by which country and which trade , or even IN which country?


----------



## Cloud Cover

Iran? Iranian Pilots? Iranian airspace?


----------



## geo

Centurian1985 said:
			
		

> Useless trivia:
> the first shot of the 1991 Gulf war was fired before the war even started - any guesses by which country and which trade , or even IN which country?



well.... there was a patrol from Marine force recon that did open fire on some Iraqis. Per my friend the Gunny, the shots were fired in Iraq.


----------



## geo

whiskey....
not a canvas jacket..... coveralls


----------



## Michael Dorosh

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> Michael: I think he has dispossessed some poor Chinese fellow of his ox horn cigarette holder, and quite possibly is wearing somebody else's light canvas jacket or heavy shirt.


  

Or overalls.

I was actually thinking it is the only photograph I've ever seen of a Patricia wearing his beret properly.   But don't tell them I said that.


----------



## Centurian1985

Answer: November 1990, Qatar, deployment in preparation of offensive ops, by a US marine exchange pilot, into the roof of my office.


----------



## Cloud Cover

Centurian1985 said:
			
		

> Answer: November 1990, Qatar, deployment in preparation of offensive ops, by a US marine exchange pilot, into the roof of my office.



They strafed the john? ;D


----------



## Centurian1985

Actually with his pistol - he forgot to clear his weapon before he came in and when he was asked if his weapon was cleared he said 'sure it is', took out his pistol and ... well you can guess the rest!

CF-18 Fighter: In excess of 5 million dollars

ATCO trailer: Over $3,000 dollars

9mm Automatic: $475

Sight of a US pilot holding a discharged smoking weapon: priceless

P.S. Cost of acquiring and building within 24 hours a sandbag station for the clearing and discharge of weapons: $10 plus labour


----------



## Centurian1985

Actually the CF-18 pilots didnt strafe the john, but they did do soemthing close that caused the first injury of the 1990 deployment ...  any guesses?


----------



## Rhibwolf

I remember this happening, and thought it amusing then.  not sure if its the answer youre looking for, but still a good piece of trivia:
It was during a CAP mission, at 2:00am on January 30 that two Canadian pilots, Maj. David “DW” Kendall and Capt. Steve “Hillbilly” Hill were called upon to attack an Iraqi patrol boat, a TCN-45 which carry the deadly anti-ship Exocet missile and anti-aircraft guns. Both aircraft strafed the speeding boat, well illuminated by moonlight, with observed 20 mm cannon hits. Passes were made to try a weapons system lock for the-air-to ground Sidewinder, but the boat’s heat signature was insufficient. In a subsequent pass, Kendall received a full system lock on air-to-air mode and launched a Sparrow missile which impacted the water close to the boat. This event represented the first instance of Canadian forces firing on an enemy in a declared combat since the Korean War.


----------



## Centurian1985

Hey that was my next question!

Ah well...

Anyway, the incident I refered to was when the CF-18's made a low pass over the Qatar airfield so the deployment ground crew could get a 'photo op'; this was also about Nov 1990, the jets passed so low that their backwash blew apart a modular tent by the runway.  Two ground crew were injured by flying aluminum tent poles.  They had no ice so the used frozen bread on the bruised pumpkins involved.


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

Since no one has answered who was the other member of the hockey hall of fame killed in WW I. I'll give the answer:

Lt. Frank McGee 21st Bn.

He was part of the Ottawa Silver Seven who held the Stanley Cup from 1904-1906 and was inducted into the HHOF in 1945.


----------



## Centurian1985

Hey Fitz, Where are you findng this stuff?


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Here's an easy one:

“We looked at one another. Something was terribly wrong. Everything was intact! We expected a town shattered by the RAF’s saturation bombing the previous night. We thought we would see a lot of damage to the seafront buildings from the shelling. There was no sign of bombing. The window panes were glittering, unbroken, in the (rays of the morning sun)."
Denis Whitaker
(Tragedy to Triumph)

The above is quoted in a transcript of a War Amps video on Dieppe.

What is wrong with this picture?


----------



## Cloud Cover

The rising sun would be behind the buildings, if it was even over the horizon on the the first wave. Maybe it was flickering flames on the windows they saw.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> The rising sun would be behind the buildings, if it was even over the horizon on the the first wave. Maybe it was flickering flames on the windows they saw.



But what would be on fire? The chert stones on the beach?  The tanks landed after the infantry, and none of them were penetrated by enemy fire in any event.

Sounds like a John Wayne moment on BGen Whitaker's part.  Wayne was the guy who had the sun setting in the wrong direction at the end of The Green Berets...


----------



## vonGarvin

I think the problem is that it wasn't sunny that day?


----------



## Michael Dorosh

vonGarvin said:
			
		

> I think the problem is that it wasn't sunny that day?



Did you miss the last three posts?  ???


----------



## Rhibwolf

Technically, as the sun rises in the E, and the coast runs NE-SW, its possible that someone looking in the right direction "might" see something like reflections. There was bombing done, but RAF fighters not by proper bombers. Naval gun fire was also present, so either of these two might account for some fires, but as the buildings were "intact" the glow would be coming from other buildings, and its unlikely that Capt Whitaker would mistake the sun's first rays with burning buildings.
That said, Im at a loss.


----------



## scoutfinch

C'mon... bring on a new question...I am on a streak having gotten two right this week!!!

(It ain't global warming, baby -- I am ON FIRE!)


----------



## vonGarvin

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Did you miss the last three posts?  ???


No, not really, but since the eyewitness (dropped off in daylight) would may or may not have seen the rising sun, but I just thought maybe no sunshine due to the fact of the clouds?  

(Maybe I missed it)


----------



## Old Sweat

I just checked the account in the official history and would like to add that the landing on the main beach was between 0520 and 0525, or about 30 minutes after the start of nautical twilight. (The times were expressed in British Summer Time, which was an hour ahead of GMT.)  Furthermore, Dieppe lies in a basin, so the sun probably may not have appeared and almost certainly could not have lit up the windows.

There were attacks by Hurricanes on the town prior to the landing, but these were strafing, so large fires should not have been set and would not have time to spread in the stone buildings around the harbour. There were no heavy bomber attacks on Dieppe itself during the night.


----------



## 3rd Herd

Just popped in for a quick question: Blood Rank refers to the awarded rank of a certain armed forces. Where, when, and who was this tradition originated by?


----------



## Cloud Cover

Just a guess: Japanese. Ancient Samurai.


What is a _suctus_, and who used it?


----------



## Centurian1985

Vampires, Transylvania, after they drank our blood?

or 

Lawyers, across North America, just before they hand us the bill?

or 

Politicans, political promises, any party, right after they've been elected?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

A suctus is the large body shield carried by the Roman Centurion.


----------



## DG-41

Do you still have yours? 

DG


----------



## 3rd Herd

Nice try Whiskey and Centurian but no.This should be an easy one for our friends south of the boarder.


----------



## Centurian1985

I dont recall carrying one of those - although I may have been a large body shield for the guy behind me!


----------



## Cloud Cover

recceguy is correct!


----------



## big bad john

Sheridan, Stuart, Lee, Grant.


----------



## redleafjumper

Blood Rank?  Is that the US Army/USMC habit of slapping the rank badge pins into someone's flesh, particularily if they seem to be the sort that was looking for the promotion?  



What was Lt. Col. J.H. Patterson's claim to fame?


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> What was Lt. Col. J.H. Patterson's claim to fame?



Being portrayed by Val Kilmer  
Actually he was responsible for killing two of the deadliest lions  (135 total human lives) during construction of a railway bridge in Kenya
see
_The Man-Eaters of Tsavo_ (1907)
or for the Lazy
_Bwana Devil_ or _The Ghost and The Darkness_

Another question on hockey and world war one. What Canadian military unit played (for part of one year) in the National Hockey Association (precursor to the NHL ?


----------



## vonGarvin

AJFitzpatrick said:
			
		

> Another question on hockey and world war one. What Canadian military unit played (for part of one year) in the National Hockey Association (precursor to the NHL ?


228th Bn?  Sent overseas in Feb 1917.  Caused a bit of a scandal because some of the officers were discharged, claiming to have commissions only to play hockey


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

vonGarvin said:
			
		

> 228th Bn?  Sent overseas in Feb 1917.  Caused a bit of a scandal because some of the officers were discharged, claiming to have commissions only to play hockey



Correct. Record was 7-7 

A new question 
who was the "Pirate of the Adriatic" ?


----------



## Rhibwolf

AJFitzpatrick said:
			
		

> A new question
> who was the "Pirate of the Adriatic" ?



Argh Matey

LCdr Tommy Miller, who commanded a half dozen fast and heavily armed motor gunboats, which preyed on enemy coastal convoys.


----------



## Rhibwolf

For all you mounted (or once mounted) types:
What is considered to be the last major cavalry battle, who were the commanders, and what eventual fate befell them both?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

The Battle of Moreuil Wood, Lt Flowerdew was one, died the next day and recieved the VC posthumously. Can't think of the other, may have to look it up.


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

Rhibwolf said:
			
		

> Argh Matey
> 
> LCdr Tommy Miller, who commanded a half dozen fast and heavily armed motor gunboats, which preyed on enemy coastal convoys.



Sort of Close;

Thomas *Fuller* DSC; The rest is correct


----------



## Rhibwolf

recceguy said:
			
		

> The Battle of Moreuil Wood, Lt Flowerdew was one, died the next day and recieved the VC posthumously. Can't think of the other, may have to look it up.


While a good answer, its not the one Im looking for. The battle Im looking for involved many more men and horses than the 3rd Cdn Cav Brigade, (think whole armies) and likely had more casualties in a single day than actually participated in Moreuil Wood. As an example, one side of the engagement alone boasted 16 700 sabres!


----------



## geo

16700 sabres.... gotta be Russian


----------



## vonGarvin

Rhibwolf said:
			
		

> For all you mounted (or once mounted) types:
> What is considered to be the last major cavalry battle, who were the commanders, and what eventual fate befell them both?


I hope googlings isn't cheating 

Anyway, I was thinking of something in Ukraine (the Ukraine?  The Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic?) in late 1944 between the rogue Ukrainian Nationalists fighting the Soviets (long after the Wehrmacht had been evicted); however, I was in error.

Komarow, Poland, 1920.  Soviets led by Semyon Budyonny (Семён Михайлович Будённый in Cyrillic).  Budyonny was in charge of the Ukrainian Defence during Barbarossa (1941) and replaced by Timoshenko.  Though responsible (by following Stalin's orders) for the loss of brazillians of soldiers, he was spared the fate of death/banishment and retired as "Hero of the Soviet Union"
Poles led by Jozef Pilsudski, a Polish nationalist who was responsible in great part for Polish independance and maintainance thereof in the turbulent days of the 1920's and 30's.  He died in 1935.


----------



## 3rd Herd

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Blood Rank?  Is that the US Army/USMC habit of slapping the rank badge pins into someone's flesh, particularly if they seem to be the sort that was looking for the promotion?



Blood rank originates in the 1920's and refers to the colour of rank chevrons found on USMC enlisted personal. The term blood rank refers directly to the fact that many promotions in this period were won at the cost of severe causalities. Today the tradition lives through as mentioned above the pounding on of new rank.


----------



## redleafjumper

LCol Patterson was in fact the slayer of the famous Tsavo Lions that killed an estimated 140 or more people in Kenya during the construction of the  rail bridge over the Tsavo River.  He also was the chief engineer of the bridge building project.


----------



## Rhibwolf

Von Garvin, good work on the the cav. question.  Always neat to see how some soviet heroes make the "cut" and some just get cut.

***What was considered to be the decisive factor in the 1864 Battle of Königgrätz?


----------



## Danjanou

Rhibwolf said:
			
		

> Von Garvin, good work on the the cav. question.  Always neat to see how some soviet heroes make the "cut" and some just get cut.
> 
> ***What was considered to be the decisive factor in the 1864 Battle of Königgrätz?



Prussians had breachloaders, Austrians still equipped with muzzle loaders


----------



## redleafjumper

The other factors, besides the use of the breechloading rifle, were the first use of rifled cannon and the use of the telegraph in ordering troop movements.  It was deemed to be a triumph of military science and technology.

Koniggratz was in 1866, not 1864.


----------



## redleafjumper

Who wrote these words (besides me just now!) and on what occasion:

"My General, - I can say: I came, I saw and I was defeated..."


----------



## Rhibwolf

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Koniggratz was in 1866, not 1864.



oh dopey me! sorry for the fat fingers.  Good answer readleafjumper.


----------



## Rhibwolf

Not having much luck with this one: Veni vidi victus sum
JEB Sutart courted his wife on horseback rides for two months, saying "I came, I saw, I was conquered."
At the inauguration of the Hoover Dam, President Roosevelt said, "I came, I saw, I was conquered."

Can you give a hint?


----------



## redleafjumper

A hint?  Okay, while I have written the phrase in English, it was originally written in French.  That should help a great deal.


----------



## redleafjumper

No bites?  Okay, here's another hint:  

In the words of the German historian:  "With the defeat of an entire army the Napoleonic dynasty in France crumbles for the third time to the dust."

That's a pretty good hint, so I expect someone should get this fairly quickly now.


----------



## Danjanou

That would probably make it the Franco-Prussian War 1870-71 and I would say the Prussian victory at Sedan 1-2 Sept1870 which say Napoleon III and over 100,000 of his troops captured.


----------



## redleafjumper

Good work Danjanou, it is definitely Sedan, so who said those words (It wasn't Napoleon III)?


----------



## Cloud Cover

Feeling melancholy earlier today looking at all the garbage lying about in the provincial park near my house: 

Q: This iconic musical artist wrote a hit song with portions of his lyrics detailing, in part, the loneliness, scared feelings and rumours affecting a soldier on the battlefield. Hint: the song mentions a retreat, although the song only dealt tangentially with warfare.   

A: Artist, song, subject matter, year of original release, and for bonus points name the band he played it with in 1995 in Berlin, Germany.

For extra bonus points- which English trio released a beautiful sounding all vocal version of the song.


----------



## Cloud Cover

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Good work Danjanou, it is definitely Sedan, so who said those words (It wasn't Napoleon III)?



Foch?


----------



## redleafjumper

It wasn't Foch - as a third hint, consider who the commanders were at Sedan...


----------



## redleafjumper

No nibbles, so I reveal that it was General de Wimpffen in his letter to Count Palikao, French Minister of War in September of 1870.  It was definitely not a google friendly question!


----------



## redleafjumper

A bit quiet here for a day or two, so here's another quick and easy question:

In WW2, Canada issued a set of postage stamps to promote the war effort.  What were the denominations and subjects of each of those stamps?


----------



## muffin

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> A bit quiet here for a day or two, so here's another quick and easy question:
> 
> In WW2, Canada issued a set of postage stamps to promote the war effort.  What were the denominations and subjects of each of those stamps?



They were for $0.38 and the grouping was called "The Second World War - Reluctantly at War Again"

Each Stamp had a caption:

- Air Training Plan
- Convoy System Established
- Canada Declares War
- The Army Mobilizes







muffin


----------



## vonGarvin

You cheated muffin  (Yeah, as if I have never googled for an answer) 


Cheers and thanks for posting the images of those stamps.


Garvin out.


----------



## redleafjumper

Actually Muffin, while those are nice stamps, they are not the ones issued in World War 2.  These are recent ones and do not even reflect the earlier designs.  The stamps I asked for are the ones actually issued by Canada during the war, in several different denominations.

Please try again.


----------



## villecour

There were 14 stamps issued in 1942 to promote the war effort, these are:

one cent, George VI in Naval uniform,
two cents, George VI in Army uniform,
three cents, George VI in Air Force uniform,
three cents, same as above but with a different color,
four cents, grain elevators,
four cents, George VI in Army uniform,
five cents, George VI in Navy uniform,
eight cents, farm scenes,
ten cents, Parliament buildings,
thirteen cents, Ram Tank,
fourteen cents, Ram tank,
twenty cents, Corvette launching,
fifty cents, munition factory,
One dollar, Destroyer,

These are nice stamps,


----------



## Danjanou

Muffin, how could someone make stamps during the Second World War with the dates 1939-45 on them? It's all about the details ;D


----------



## geo

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Muffin, how could someone make stamps during the Second World War with the dates 1939-45 on them? It's all about the details ;D


Very good planning>?


----------



## Cloud Cover

A $1 stamp in ww2? That would have been a rare stamp indeed.


----------



## Cloud Cover

Whose likeness or image was on a dollar bill issued by the government of Canada* in the 3rd year of the Great War, and whose likeness or image was on a Canadian* dollar bill in the 3rd year of WW2? 

In contrast, whose likeness or image was likely to be found on the bills issued by commercial banks during the time period above, until 1944

*edited: "Dominion of Canada"


----------



## redleafjumper

Villecour, that's a good answer on the stamps.  Likeness on money issued in the third year of the Great War?

Let's see... King George V on the dollar in the third year of the Great War, and the dollar in 3rd year of WW2, King George VI.

Commercial Bank notes - I'm guessing but I think that the image was Britannia.


----------



## villecour

Whiskey 601, the WW2 one dollar stamp might be unusual for its time but there were Dollars valued stamps in Canada much earlier. The Vicoria Jubilee  of 1897 saw the issue a set of stamps including: one, two, three, four and even a five dollars stamps. Think of the average wages of this period .
To my knowledge these were the first Canadian stamps with $$ plus face value.


----------



## redleafjumper

What was Operation "Goldflake?"


----------



## Rhibwolf

The 1st Cdn Division moved from Italy as part of Operation Goldflake in March 1945, finishing The War in The Netherlands with Cdn 1st Army.

---The bulk of Canada's WWII Navy comprised what class of vessel?


----------



## redleafjumper

Rhibwolf, you're correct about Goldflake

Escorts were the most common class of vessel - Flower class corvettes were the most common ship.  See "uboat.net" for more information.

Royal Canadian Navy Flower Class Corvettes

HMCS Agassiz (K 129)
HMCS Alberni (K 103) (lost 21 Aug, 1944)
HMCS Algoma (K 127)
HMCS Amherst (K 148)
HMCS Arrowhead (K 145) (ex. HMS Arrowhead)
HMCS Arvida (K 113)
HMCS Baddeck (K 147)
HMCS Barrie (K 138)
HMCS Battleford (K 165)
HMCS Bittersweet (K 182) (ex. HMS Bittersweet)
HMCS Brandon (K 149)
HMCS Brantford (K 218)
HMCS Buctouche (K 179)
HMCS Calgary (K 231)
HMCS Camrose (K 154)
HMCS Chambly (K 116)
HMCS Charlottetown (i) (K 244) (lost 11 Sep, 1942)
HMCS Chicoutimi (K 156)
HMCS Chilliwack (K 131)
HMCS Cobalt (K 124)
HMCS Collingwood (K 180)
HMCS Dauphin (K 157)
HMCS Dawson (K 104)
HMCS Drumheller (K 167)
HMCS Dundas (K 229)
HMCS Dunvegan (K 177)
HMCS Edmundston (K 106)
HMCS Eyebright (K 150) (ex. HMS Eyebright)
HMCS Fennel (K 194) (ex. HMS Fennel)
HMCS Fredericton (K 245)
HMCS Galt (K 163)
HMCS Halifax (K 237)
HMCS Hepatica (K 159) (ex. HMS Hepatica)
HMCS Kamloops (K 176)
HMCS Kamsack (K 171)
HMCS Kenogami (K 125)
HMCS Kitchener (K 225)
HMCS La Malbaie (K 273)
HMCS Lethbridge (K 160)
HMCS Levis (i) (K 115) (lost 19 Sep, 1941)
HMCS Louisburg (i) (K 143) (lost 6 Feb, 1943)
HMCS Lunenburg (K 151)
HMCS Matapedia (K 112)
HMCS Mayflower (K 191) (ex. HMS Mayflower)
HMCS Midland (K 220)
HMCS Moncton (K 139)
HMCS Moosejaw (K 164)
HMCS Morden (K 170)
HMCS Nanaimo (K 101)
HMCS Napanee (K 118)
HMCS New Westminster (K 228)
HMCS Oakville (K 178)
HMCS Orillia (K 119)
HMCS Pictou (K 146)
HMCS Port Arthur (K 233)
HMCS Prescott (K 161)
HMCS Quesnel (K 133)
HMCS Regina (K 234) (lost 8 Aug, 1944)
HMCS Rimouski (K 121)
HMCS Rosthern (K 169)
HMCS Sackville (K 181)  * This is the only one left.
HMCS Saskatoon (K 158)
HMCS Shawinigan (K 136) (lost 25 Nov, 1944)
HMCS Shediac (K 110)
HMCS Sherbrooke (K 152)
HMCS Snowberry (K 166) (ex. HMS Snowberry)
HMCS Sorel (K 153)
HMCS Spikenard (K 198) (ex. HMS Spikenard) (lost 11 Feb, 1942)
HMCS Sudbury (K 162)
HMCS Summerside (K 141)
HMCS The Pas (K 168)
HMCS Timmins (K 223)
HMCS Trail (K 174)
HMCS Trillium (K 172) (ex. HMS Trillium)
HMCS Vancouver (K 240)
HMCS Ville de Quebec (K 242)
HMCS Wetaskiwin (K 175)
HMCS Weyburn (K 173) (lost 22 Feb, 1943)
HMCS Windflower (K 155) (ex. HMS Windflower) (lost 7 Dec, 1941)
HMCS Woodstock (K 238)


----------



## Cloud Cover

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> Whose likeness or image was on a dollar bill issued by the government of Canada* in the 3rd year of the Great War, and whose likeness or image was on a Canadian* dollar bill in the 3rd year of WW2?
> 
> In contrast, whose likeness or image was likely to be found on the bills issued by commercial banks during the time period above, until 1944
> 
> *edited: "Dominion of Canada"



Answers:

1. Great War:  Princess Patricia
2. WW2- King George V

Canadian Commercial Bank money bills- were not issued/printed by the government, so it appears no Crown likeness was permitted except in exceptional circumstances. As far as I can tell the printing of Canadian commercial bank legal tender for general distribution and usage fell out of favour due to increase Crown supply, and was quickly discontinued from general circulation in 1944. [although similar systems such as American express remain to this day]. The images on the Commerical bills were usually the 2 top executives in the bank. I am informed some Quebec institutions [Caise, other credit unions] were accumulating gold, and printing their own money for potential currency circulation in the late 1970's. Never been able to confirm that but it would make sense if they wished to avoid a money supply crisis in the event of separation. 

I once heard [recently] that a special $50 bill was proposed in 1917 with a battle image of Vimy Ridge, but it was rejected so as not to link wealth with the war!! [bearing in mind the threat of communism.]  The $50 figure was to reflect the fact that the great Vimy battle occured in the 50th year from Confederation.  Few common people would have had an opportunity to hold a $50 bill in 1917.  Perhaps this would be a good idea to work towards for 2017.


----------



## redleafjumper

Thanks for that answer Whiskey601, the sad thing is that even today, I rarely get to see a fifty dollar bill!

What is a vambrace?


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Might it be this?

Vambraces are "tubular" or "gutter" defenses for the forearm, developed first in the ancient world mainly by the Romans, but only formally named during the early 14th century, as part of a suit of plate. Made of either leather, sometimes reinforced with longitudinal strips of hardened hide or metal (a crafting method named "splinted armor"), or from a single piece of worked steel and worn with other pieces of armor. Vambraces are generally called forearm guards, with or without separate couters, or elbow guards.

Often archers would wear bracers, a variant of vambraces, to keep the inside of their forearm from getting hurt by the string of the bow or the fletching of the arrow.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vambrace.


----------



## redleafjumper

Yes Nfld_Sapper, that is a good definition of vambrace.

Did you have a question to challenge us with?


----------



## Nfld Sapper

OK, time for a sort of historical question.


Who was Japan's Last Samurai? and was he a real person or a historical compelation?


----------



## Danjanou

Nfld_Sapper said:
			
		

> OK, time for a sort of historical question.
> 
> 
> Who was Japan's Last Samurai? and was he a real person or a historical compelation?



Tom Cruise, lousy movie too.

Sorry couldn't resist. I saw the shot. I took it. I wasn't below the hard deck for more than a few seconds. 8)


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Tom Cruise, lousy movie too.
> Sorry couldn't resist. I saw the shot. I took it. I wasn't below the hard deck for more than a few seconds. 8)



LOL, nice answer  but no.

(I do realize that the questions are supposed to be about the Canadian Army but I couldn't think of a good question  )


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Ok a hint, Danjanou was the track so to speak.

This figure was mentioned in the movie.


----------



## redleafjumper

Actually no, history is not just limited to the Canadian army.  Were that the case this thread might well have been exhausted long ago.

As to the "last samurai" , hmm, that is a difficult one, as there are likely many who could qualify.  The word Samurai is not singular, but I suspect that Lord Katsumoto is likely the most credible candidate for his leadership of the samurai in the rebellion against  the modernisation of Japan.  Certainly the traditions of the samurai and bushido were continued in World War Two.  Any remnants of samurai tradition certainly ended with that conflict.

What are the patch colours for the Canadian divisions, by division, in the second world war?


----------



## dangerboy

1st Infantry Division Red
2nd Infantry Division Grey
3rd Infantry Division Blue
4th Armoured Division Green
5th Armoured Division Maroon 
6th British Airborne Division (1st Canadian Parachute Battalion was part of) Maroon with light blue Bellerophon riding Pegasus.

Source From D-Day to VE-Day the Canadian Soldier By Jean Bouchery Published by Histoire & Collections.


----------



## vonGarvin

dangerboy said:
			
		

> 1st Infantry Division Red
> 2nd Infantry Division Grey
> 3rd Infantry Division Blue
> 4th Armoured Division Green
> 5th Armoured Division Maroon
> 6th British Airborne Division (1st Canadian Parachute Battalion was part of) Maroon with light blue Bellerophon riding Pegasus.
> 
> Source From D-Day to VE-Day the Canadian Soldier By Jean Bouchery Published by Histoire & Collections.


Having worn the patch of the "Big Red One", that's the only one I knew off hand, though I must admit that at one time, I DID know that
Question removed at my request: I think I used the wrong wording, and now I'm confused 


So, no question from me


----------



## Danjanou

dangerboy said:
			
		

> 1st Infantry Division Red
> 2nd Infantry Division Grey
> 3rd Infantry Division Blue
> 4th Armoured Division Green
> 5th Armoured Division Maroon
> 6th British Airborne Division (1st Canadian Parachute Battalion was part of) Maroon with light blue Bellerophon riding Pegasus.
> 
> Source From D-Day to VE-Day the Canadian Soldier By Jean Bouchery Published by Histoire & Collections.



You forgot some

 The 6th Division
http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/mediawiki-1.5.5/index.php?title=6th_Canadian_Division

The 6th Div CAPF
http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/mediawiki-1.5.5/index.php?title=6th_Canadian_Division_%28CAPF%29

The 7th Div
http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/mediawiki-1.5.5/index.php?title=7th_Canadian_Division

The 8th Div
http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/mediawiki-1.5.5/index.php?title=8th_Canadian_Division

Sure they were never deployed overseas but they were Second World War Canadian Divisions. 
There was also a second 3rd Canadian Div (CAOP) raised in 1945 for occupation duty in Germany

http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/mediawiki-1.5.5/index.php?title=3rd_Canadian_Division_%28CAOF%29

Thanks to our own Michael Dorosh and his informative site for the links above.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

OK here is the answer to my question.

According to here, http://www.artelino.com/articles/saigo-takamori.asp Saigo Takamori was the last Samurai (in the traditional sense of the term).


----------



## Old Sweat

Reference the question re divisional patches, I am sure that the 2nd Division wore a green patch, while the colour of the 3rd's was french gray.


----------



## villecour

Second div wore a blue patch, the officer's patch had en embroiderd '' C '' in gold wire upon their patches


----------



## Old Sweat

villecour,

You are correct. I had a case of cerebral flatulence.


----------



## redleafjumper

Wow, some great answers on Canadian Division patches.  Here is another question:

What operation saw the first use of the "Kangaroo" APC?


----------



## larry Strong

Operation "Totalize". They removed the guns from the 3rd Divs Priest's, and covered up the gun apertures with armoured plate. They were  nicknamed "Unfrocked Priest's"


----------



## Old Sweat

Here is a supplemental to the question re Kangaroos. What was the origin of the name Kangaroo?


----------



## geo

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Here is a supplemental to the question re Kangaroos. What was the origin of the name Kangaroo?


troops travel "piggback" on / under the armour of an AFV.... same as a "roo" kitt


----------



## Old Sweat

Geo,

Good try and very close, but no cigar. That actually was the reason that the name stuck, but as a hint, Kangaroo was a code word in use at the time. The question is what did it stand for?


----------



## redleafjumper

Yes, it was Operation totalize.  Here is the answer to the other question:


From http://www.1cacr.org/hist.html


"...Each had its howitzer removed, and the resulting gap in the front armour plated over with whatever steel could be found. Dubbed 'Kangaroos', which was the code name for the 2nd corps Army Workshops Detachment (AWD) which converted them, these robust vehicles were assigned a single driver as the only crew, and loaded with ten or more infantry, crossed the start line for Operation TOTALIZE on the night of 7 August 1944. 	

The vehicles, and the tactics, were an immediate success. It had been demonstrated that carrying troops behind armour significantly reduced casualties, as well as increased morale within the hard-pressed infantry. In addition, the ability of these vehicles to keep pace with the tanks increased the security of both elements.
The Priest Kangaroos continued to serve throughout the rest of the campaign in France, carrying both British and Canadian infantry in every attack. On 28 August 1944, their usefullness was formally recognized within the Canadian War Establishment by the designation '1st Canadian Armoured Personnel Carrier Squadron' (Capt. F.S. Corbeau, commanding).

The vehicles, and the tactics, were an immediate success. It had been demonstrated that carrying troops behind armour significantly reduced casualties, as well as increased morale within the hard-pressed infantry. In addition, the ability of these vehicles to keep pace with the tanks increased the security of both elements."


----------



## Old Sweat

Redleaf Jumper, well done.


----------



## larry Strong

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> The Priest Kangaroos continued to serve throughout the rest of the campaign in France, carrying both British and Canadian infantry in every attack.



Much to the disgust of the Gunners who had to go back to the 25 pounder.


----------



## Jantor

In addition, as I understand, ammunition for the 105's the Priests were originally equipped with was in short supply and with no more ammo forthcoming the guns were removed and the Kangaroo was born. Some Canadian made Ram tanks that were in England for training purposes and considered unfit for combat had their turrets removed and were used after the Priests.


----------



## larry Strong

The Montreal Locomotive Works built the Ram II which was used as an OP when issued with turret. With the removal  of the turret, basket, and main armament, they were used as APC's, as a tractor to tow the 17lb A/T gun.  When used as an ammo carrier it was fitted with with a hatch cover of armoured plate over the turret ring. It could also be used as a flame thrower (called Wasp) and was fitted with 4 tanks for Oxygen, Carbon Dioxide, and Oil, in this role the bow MG was replaced with a flame gun.

Source "Canada's Fighting Vehicles Europe 1943 - 45 Vol 1"


----------



## Old Sweat

Jantor,

My reading of the conversion is that the guns had been borrowed from the US Army for the invasion and the plan always was to return them at a convenient time. The 3rd Division was pulled out of the line at the end of July and the three field regiments were converted at the time. (The 19th Army Field Regiment also was equipped with borrowed Priests, but did not exchange them for Sexton 25-pdr SPs until laye August.)


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

What was the only Mexican unit to engage in combat operations in WW II?


----------



## muffin

AJFitzpatrick said:
			
		

> What was the only Mexican unit to engage in combat operations in WW II?



Was it the Mexican Expeditionary Air Force 201st Fighter Squadron?


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

muffin said:
			
		

> Was it the Mexican Expeditionary Air Force 201st Fighter Squadron?




Yes, That was too fast
 "Aztec Eagles" flying P-47s in a ground support role in the Phillipines


----------



## geo

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> The Montreal Locomotive Works built the Ram II used as APC's, as a tractor to tow the 17lb A/T gun.  "



from what I read, they were not too successful as gun tractors. Something about the driver not having a "feel" of what he was towing. Great to go cross country but the gun was just as likely to be turned to scrap metal by the time the move was over.

Quite popular as a CP for the gun battery & FOOs though


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

Another question: Probably a sitter though

Who/What were the "Dubsters"


----------



## scoutfinch

Going out on a limb and guessing the Royal Dublin Fusiliers???

I suspect I am only partially correct but that is better than being totally wrong!


----------



## muffin

Battle of Gallipoli, the remainder of the Munsters, Dubliners were combined into one unit, known as the “Dubsters”. (Have sometimes heard Hampshires too - but not certian)

Found some references :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gallipoli

http://www.1914-1918.net/dubs.htm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/beyond/factsheets/makhist/makhist4_prog4a.shtml


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

scoutfinch said:
			
		

> Going out on a limb and guessing the Royal Dublin Fusiliers???
> 
> I suspect I am only partially correct but that is better than being totally wrong!



Yes, partially right; but it also has a specific time/location context that is especially appropriate for today. (How about that for a cryptic clue)

Muffin has it right


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

Kind of quiet so here is a simple listing question.

What are names of apparel named after military personages.

I'll start with a few of the obvious ones

Wellington Boot
Cardigan
and Raglan sweater


----------



## bLUE fOX

Does a Grog coat count?


----------



## geo

sandwich


----------



## scoutfinch

going along with geo's non-appareal thinking:  chesterfield (although I believe it can also be men's jacket but I stand to be corrected on that point).


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

To summarize so far

Apparel
wellington Boot
cardigan
raglan sweater
grog coat

Furniture
chesterfield

Food
sandwich

I'm open to any thing named after military (and naval) personages but I have a sneaking suspicion practically every English hereditary title will wind up in here.


----------



## scoutfinch

I have invested the time to google and chesterfield is also a men's long coat.


----------



## redleafjumper

Napoleon brandy  (what the most well-dressed port - couldn't resist)
Sam Browne belt


----------



## Rhibwolf

How about the Mao, Eisenhower and Garibaldi styles of Jackets.  
Bowie knife - Col James Bowie
Galil (Israel Galili - Haganah) ,  AK style weapons (Mikhail Kalashnikov, Soviet Army), and any number of others,


----------



## R711

balaklava (sp) named after the battle
R711 OUT


----------



## geo

(you refering to the headdress or the pastry?)


----------



## larry Strong

Is there a pastry called "Balaclava" or do you mean "Baklava"


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

Half a league half a league
Half a league onward
All for honey and pastry
Rode the six hundred:
'Forward, the Light Brigade
Charge for the nuts' he said
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

with apologies to everyone


----------



## geo

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> Is there a pastry called "Balaclava" or do you mean "Baklava"


Yeah, yeah.... I know - just took a small artistic liberty


----------



## BernDawg

How bout the "Trench Coat"


----------



## geo

Trench foot?


----------



## redleafjumper

The Tarleton helmet - General Sir B. Tarleton


----------



## Rhibwolf

Baklava (or baklawa) is a popular rich, sweet pastry found in many cuisines of the Middle East and the Balkans, made of chopped nuts layered with phyllo pastry, sweetened with sugar syrup or honey.
The other thing, a balaclava, is a form of headgear covering the whole head, exposing only the face (and often only the eyes). The name "balaclava" comes from the town of Balaklava in Crimea. During the Crimean War, knitted balaclavas were sent over to the British troops to help protect them from the bitter cold weather. They are traditionally knitted from wool, and can be rolled up into a hat to cover just the crown of the head.
Both are equally sweet, depending on the temperature and your need......


What naval battle ended with the complete and utter destruction of one combatant's forces after an epic journey of nine months and nearly 18000 miles of transit?
How badly did the winner get mauled in this decisive battle?


----------



## redleafjumper

Sounds like the series of defeats of the Russian Fleet by the Imperial Japanese Navy during the Ruso-Japanese War, particularly the siege of Port Arthur..

Could also be the battle of Midway...


----------



## geo

Rhibwolf said:
			
		

> What naval battle ended with the complete and utter destruction of one combatant's forces after an epic journey of nine months and nearly 18000 miles of transit?
> How badly did the winner get mauled in this decisive battle?


gotta be the Russo Japanese war & the elimination of the russian fleet....... If you go back some 20 odd pages...... you'll find the same question  (which was already answered)


----------



## Rhibwolf

Sorry about the repeat. Wasnt a member, and didnt check back to see if it was asked already. 
In any case, it was the battle of Tsushima, with:
Japanese 117 dead, 583 injured, 3 torpedo boats sunk 
Russian: 4380 dead, 5917 injured, 21 ships sunk, 7 captured, 6 disarmed


----------



## Cloud Cover

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/42528.0.html

In semi- reference to the above url, in WW2, what slogan was used in near global application by Allied troops and was often found scrawled on building walls, crappers, destroyed [and not so destroyed] vehicles, looted ration boxes etc?


----------



## Old Sweat

Kilroy was here.


----------



## redleafjumper

Kilroy was here.  (It came with a  sketch of a chap with a large nose looking over a wall)





What count of material and prisoners were captured by the Canadian Corps between August 8 and November 11th (the 100 days campaign) of 1918?


----------



## Cloud Cover

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Kilroy was here.



Correct!! Apparently it even turned up on discarded equipment on the moon. Be neat to see the tradition pick up again in A'Stan.


----------



## redleafjumper

It was most commonly an American slogan.  I'm not an advocate of grafitti, but there are certainly some interesting examples of Canadian graffiti carved in the Grange Subway in the chalk tunnels under Vimy.


----------



## redleafjumper

I haven't seen any takers yet on answering the question on what was captured by the Canadian Corps in the 100 Days Campaign.

I will give it another day before providing the answer.


----------



## Old Sweat

According to Sir Arthur Currie, between 8 Aug and 11 Nov the Canadian Corps captured 31,537 prisoners, 623 guns (heavy and field), 2842 machine guns and 336 heavy and light trench mortars,


----------



## redleafjumper

Quite correct Old Sweat, those are Currie's numbers from Corps Operations, 1918.

During that same period, how many German divisions did the Canadian Corps engage, according to the CCGS War Diary?


----------



## Old Sweat

Without looking at my reference material, the figure of 47 divisions comes to mind. This was very close to one quarter of the 200 divisions it was believed the Germans had on the Western Front.


----------



## redleafjumper

47 divisions is a reasonable response, but the actual number is higher at 68 German divisions engaged during the 100 Days Campaign.  This number is higher that the 47 or so believed at the time, due to the ability to examine the records of both sides, and also to the expanded definition of engaged which included more divisions.  The CCGS War Diary goes with 68 Divisions.


----------



## redleafjumper

So tell me, what is a dolabra?


----------



## muffin

It is a neat old Viking Axe isn't it? 

Long live Thor (haha)

muffin


----------



## Rhibwolf

The pick-axe of the Roman Legionnaire a standard issue tool. In Caesar's "Commentaries" and other contemporary writings, it is clear that Legionnaires built elaborate camps of earthworks at the end of the long day's march. This is one of the primary tools they used. The rough-forged blackened iron head has a 3.5" edge, a 6" straight tine, and comes complete with a brass edge sheath with traingular ornaments and leather ties


----------



## redleafjumper

Good answer Rhibwold and a good try muffin.  It is the Roman Legionaire's pick-axe as described in Caesar's "Commentaries".

What is the claim to fame of General Francois Chasseloup-Laubaut?


----------



## vonGarvin

OK, this may be easy, but what does "FLAK" come from?  (eg: what does it stand for, not just the definition)


----------



## George Wallace

Fliegerabwehrkanonen (Flak)


----------



## vonGarvin

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Fliegerabwehrkanonen (Flak)


VERY VERY close.  Close enough to be correct.

"FLugzeugAbwehrKanone" (the capital letters are there just to show where the acronym comes from).  Anti-aircraft Cannon.


----------



## vonGarvin

In the theme of the previous, how about "PAK"?  (again, may be too obvious, but it IS Friday, and it's been a looooong week)


----------



## George Wallace

Panzerabwehrkanone


PanzerAbwehrKanone


----------



## George Wallace

Spahpanzer is a favourite.


----------



## redleafjumper

Don't forget about the question on the General asked above.

Spahpanzer?  Usually a light, wheeled armoured recce vehicle.


----------



## vonGarvin

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Panzerabwehrkanone
> PanzerAbwehrKanone


Indeed!


			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> Spahpanzer is a favourite.


Spähpanzer is indeed a recce vehicle, tracked or wheeled.

Hows about Schützenpanzer?


----------



## George Wallace

Would that be a panzer you drive to a Schützenfest?    ;D


----------



## scoutfinch

self propelled gun?


----------



## vonGarvin

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Would that be a panzer you drive to a Schützenfest?    ;D


 :rofl:

No, but good enough!  APC  (Schützen literally means 'to protect', so....)


----------



## vonGarvin

scoutfinch said:
			
		

> self propelled gun?


Nope, that would have been "Panzerhaubitze" (Ph?)  Schützenpanzer is (literally) an "armoured infantry vehicle", or APC as we call them


----------



## redleafjumper

Hey, what about this one?

What is the claim to fame of General Francois Chasseloup-Laubaut,  and as a follow-up to this question, what was the claim to fame of his colleague General Jean-Baptiste Eble?


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

They are both French  
Napoleon's chief military engineer? ( I have to admit I googolled this)


----------



## larry Strong

General Jean-Baptiste Eble

He was responsible for bridging the Beresnia river with 400 French engineer troops and allowed the remnants of the Grand Armee to break combat with the Russians and escape.

General Francois Chasseloup-Laubaut

Still looking for info on him, He has something to do with building a fort near Poznan or Warsaw!

source: The Napoleonic War by Gunther Rothenberg


----------



## redleafjumper

Larry is correct regarding General Jean-Baptiste Eble and AJFitzpatrick is also correct about General Francois Chasseloup-Laubaut.

What they have in common is that they both were involved in the bridging of the Berezina River.  Eble was in comand of the pontoon train and saved supplies sufficient to do some bridging after having been ordered to destroy all the pontoons.   Chasseloup-Laubaut commanded Napoleon's engineers but they were not equipped to do any bridging.  Francois put his men under Eble's command for the operation.  What might have been a total disaster for Napoleon was averted by the hard work of these commanders and their exhausted support soldiers who, through their hard work allowed the remnants of the Grand Armee to slip away from the Russians.


What is the "PanzerKampfAbzeichen Der LuftWaffe"?


----------



## vonGarvin

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> What is the "PanzerKampfAbzeichen Der LuftWaffe"?


Tank destruction award of the (German) Airforce.  Guys like Hans Ulrich Rudel would have been awarded this, no?

How about the "Panzervernichtungsabzeichen"?  It literally means "tank destruction award", but what was the criteria for winning it?


----------



## larry Strong

"Special badge for single-handed Destruction of  a Tank"

2 classes Silver and Gold

It was introduced on 9.3.42, this award was not for members of A/T units, but for service personnel who destroyed a fighting vehicle single handed.

The criteria for the award were:

- Destruction  was to be made by means of a hand grenade, rocket grenade, satchel charge or any other similar hand held explosive.

- one silver emblem was awarded for each fighting vehicle destroyed.

- 4 awards could be worn a one time, being worn done above the other on the upper right arm of the tunic

-On the 5th award all 5 badges were exchanged for 1 gold badge.

- This process continued with 1 gold award having silver badges beneath it until the 10th badge was awarded and so on..

The greatest number of tanks destroyed by 1 man qualifying for the bestowal of the badge was 21. This was achieved by Obrestleutnant Gunter Viezenz.

 source; A Collectors guide to WW@ German Medals and Political awards by Christopher Ailsby


----------



## vonGarvin

Very well done!  More info than I thought possible, but hey!  Very nice!


----------



## redleafjumper

VonGarvin wrote: "Tank destruction award of the (German) Airforce.  Guys like Hans Ulrich Rudel would have been awarded this, no?"

Actually no, that is not what this badge is and Rudel would not have qualified for it.  Another try perhaps?


----------



## larry Strong

Tank Battle badge for the Airforce: 


The same order that announced the introduction of the higher grade's of the Luftwaffe Ground Combat War badge also introduced the special _"PanzerKampfAbzeichen Der Luftwaffe"_. These were introduced to reward those men of the "Luftwaffe Field Divisions" including the Division "Hermann Goring", who had distinguished themselves in ground combat.

Awarded in a Black and a Silver version

Silver type award criteria:  

- Tank commanders, gunners, radio operators and drivers for participation in 3 combat engagements on 3 separate days;

- Tank recovery and repair crews provided they were in the front line and had been engaged by the enemy 3 times on 3 separate days;

- Medical personnel attached to Luftwaffe armoured units which had been engaged on 3....

Black type award criteria

- Members of Luftwaffe Panzergerenadier formations who had front-lined positions and had been engaged in 3.....

- Medical personnel attached to Luftwaffe PzGdr units which had been engaged .....

- Personnel of Luftwaffe Armoured Reconnaissance unites if engaged in at least 3....

Eventually included awards for 25, 50, 75, and 100 engagements

Source; Uniforms and Insignia of the Luftwaffe Vol 2: 1940-45 by Brian L . Davis


----------



## redleafjumper

Larry, That's the right answer.  Interesting to think of armoured air force units, but those were interesting times.

Another interesting one is the SeeKampfAbzeichen Der Luftwaffe, or Sea Battle Badge of the Air Force, awarded as appreciation for crew members serving with rescue vessels, air protection and other Luftwaffe specialty ships.  This badge was rare and if awarded at all was not given out very often.

Who said, and on what occasion: " If we had dreaded the number of the enemy, we should have fled; but though we are inferior to them in ships, we are in all things else superior.  Let the enemy feel that though our fleet be divided, our spirit is entire.  At the worst, it will be more honourable to die bravely here on our own element than be made spectacles to the Dutch.  To be overcome is the fortune of war, but to fly is the fashion of cowards."


----------



## larry Strong

A bit of Cliff Clavenesque trivia, 

In total, Rudel flew about 2,530 combat missions (a world record), during which time he destroyed almost 2,000 ground targets (among them claiming 519 tanks, 70 assault craft/landing boats, 150 self-propelled guns, 4 armoured trains and 800 other vehicles, as well as a battleship, two cruisers, a destroyer and 9 planes ( two IL-2's and 7 fighters). He was shot down or force-landed 32 times (several times behind enemy lines), always somehow managing to escape capture despite Stalin himself having a 100,000 ruble bounty placed on his head.He was also wounded five times and rescued six stranded aircrew from enemy territory. The vast majority of his missions were piloting the various models of the Junkers Ju87 bomber though by the end of the war he was flying the ground-attack variant of the FW190.

He went on to become the most highly decorated combatant in Germany, earning by early 1945 the German Cross in Gold, the Pilots and Observer's Badge with Diamonds, the Close Combat Clasp with 2000 sorties in Diamonds, and the only holder of Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Golden Oak Leaves, Swords, and Diamonds. 

To bring us into the 20th century:

What was the call sign of the M109 that fired the last round of 3RCHA prior to being re-numbered and going to Cyprus in 1992.

As an added question who were the Det Comd and the Det 2 i/c


----------



## vonGarvin

With regards to the 3 RCHA question: would you have been involved in that firing? 


With regards to Rudel, what was the battleship he sunk?

Also, the Germans aren't alone with "oddness" (regarding their armoured airforce units).  Remember 3 Mechanised Commando of The Canadian Airborne Regiment? ;D  Sure, those M113s were air droppable (anything can be dropped), but I don't think that they were air-droppable/survivable?


----------



## larry Strong

That would be correct, though as a "Molitia" augmentee you wont find my name in the books.


On September 23, 1941, Rudel sank the Soviet battleship Marat during an air attack on Kronstadt harbour in the Leningrad area.


----------



## larry Strong

There was an article in the "Shilo Stag" about the occasion.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> A bit of Cliff Clavenesque trivia,
> 
> In total, Rudel flew about 2,530 combat missions (a world record), during which time he destroyed almost 2,000 ground targets (among them claiming 519 tanks, 70 assault craft/landing boats, 150 self-propelled guns, 4 armoured trains and 800 other vehicles, as well as a battleship, two cruisers, a destroyer and 9 planes ( two IL-2's and 7 fighters). He was shot down or force-landed 32 times (several times behind enemy lines), always somehow managing to escape capture despite Stalin himself having a 100,000 ruble bounty placed on his head.He was also wounded five times and rescued six stranded aircrew from enemy territory. The vast majority of his missions were piloting the various models of the Junkers Ju87 bomber though by the end of the war he was flying the ground-attack variant of the FW190.
> 
> He went on to become the most highly decorated combatant in Germany, earning by early 1945 the German Cross in Gold, the Pilots and Observer's Badge with Diamonds, the Close Combat Clasp with 2000 sorties in Diamonds, and the only holder of Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Golden Oak Leaves, Swords, and Diamonds.



The fact that he was an unrepentant Nazi and favourite of Hitler probably didn't hurt either, with respect to his decorations. His autobiography was thrilling when I read it as a thirteen year old. As an adult, I couldn't help but feel creeped out by the standard German "heroic combat" themes and veiled references to subhuman enemies. I think the new revisionists have begun the assault on Rudel's character but I haven't read any of it since I think it is mostly in German - quite possibly some of the invective is well deserved.

_Verloren ist nur, wer sich selbst aufgibt! _


----------



## redleafjumper

I still haven't had any takers on this one:

Who said, and on what occasion: " If we had dreaded the number of the enemy, we should have fled; but though we are inferior to them in ships, we are in all things else superior.  Let the enemy feel that though our fleet be divided, our spirit is entire.  At the worst, it will be more honourable to die bravely here on our own element than be made spectacles to the Dutch.  To be overcome is the fortune of war, but to fly is the fashion of cowards."


----------



## 3rd Horseman

Let me try, Nelson?


----------



## vangemeren

Robert Blake?


----------



## Rhibwolf

George Monck, Duke of Albemarle is credited for "to be overcome is the fortune of war"


----------



## Rhibwolf

Closest thing I could come to the 3RCHA question is this, and when i found it, I thought I had the right answer,..... alas.
SHILO, Manitoba — To support an increased mission in Afghanistan, artillery units will be deploying with a new Howitzer. Last month, A Battery, 1 Royal Canadian Horse Artillery (1 RCHA), positioned four of the new M777 behind the officers’ mess for a ceremonial first shot. The senior gun in the Corps of the Artillery fired the first round. 

This detachment, commanded by Sergeant Paul Dolomont, is the same that fired the last round from an M109 before it was removed from service in 2005. 
Right Gun, wrong Regt, wrong decade........but for some reason, 35C comes to mind for 1992?


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

What is the origin (time and meaning) of having a chat?


----------



## larry Strong

35F and the #1 was Sgt Partridge


----------



## mover1

AJFitzpatrick said:
			
		

> What is the origin (time and meaning) of having a chat?



Lice bed bugs etc... commonly refered to as chats. Often these little creatures would burrow into the seams of a mans clothing and  the only way to get them out was to squeeze them out of the seams. (Much like popping bubble wrap cept not as fun).

Groups of men would gather round in groups and sqeeze these things out of the seams of thier clothes and talk or swap stories. 

IE having a chat.


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

mover1 said:
			
		

> Lice bed bugs etc... commonly refered to as chats. Often these little creatures would burrow into the seams of a mans clothing and  the only way to get them out was to squeeze them out of the seams. (Much like popping bubble wrap cept not as fun).
> 
> Groups of men would gather round in groups and sqeeze these things out of the seams of thier clothes and talk or swap stories.
> 
> IE having a chat.



Correct. It is why I stay out of chat rooms you never know what you might pick up.


----------



## RiflemanPhil

What was the name of the first battle the Portugese fought in India, and who was the commander? How many battles is this man reputed to have won?


----------



## redleafjumper

Rhibwolf is correct about George Monck, Duke of Albemarle, being the source for that quotation.  The occasion was the end of the first day of the Four Days' Fight, English versus the Dutch in 1666.  (Sorry I didn't get back to you on this sooner, but I was away from e-mail for a few days!)


----------



## redleafjumper

From wikipedia  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfonso_d'Albuquerque:

 D. Afonso de Albuquerque

Early life

Born in Alhandra in the year of 1453, near Lisbon, Portugal, he was for some time known as The Great, and as The Portuguese Mars. Through his father, Gonçalo de Albuquerque, Herr von Vila Verde dos Francos (married to Leonor de Menezes), who held an important position at court, he was connected by illegitimate descent with the royal family of Portugal. He was educated in mathematics and classical Latin at the court of Afonso V of Portugal, and after the death of that monarch seems to have served for some time in Africa. On his return he was appointed estribeiro-mor (chief equerry) to John II.
[edit]

Expeditions to the East
[edit]

First Expedition, 1503-1504

In 1503 he set out on his first expedition to the East, which was to be the scene of his future triumphs. In company with his kinsman Francisco he sailed round the Cape of Good Hope to India, and succeeded in establishing the king of Cochin securely on his throne, obtaining in return for this service permission to build a Portuguese fort at Cochin, and thus laying the foundation of his country's empire in the East.
[edit]

Operations in the Persian Gulf and Malabar, 1504-1508

Albuquerque returned home in July 1504, and was well received by King Manuel I of Portugal, who entrusted him with the command of a squadron of five vessels in the fleet of sixteen which sailed for India in 1506 under Tristão da Cunha. After a series of successful attacks on the Arab cities on the east coast of Africa, Albuquerque separated from Da Cunha, and sailed with his squadron against the island of Ormuz, in the Persian Gulf, which was then one of the chief centres of commerce in the East. He arrived on September 25, 1507, and soon obtained possession of the island, though he was unable long to maintain his position.

With his squadron increased by three vessels, he reached the Malabar coast at the close of the year 1508, and immediately made known the commission he had received from the king empowering him to supersede the governor Francisco de Almeida. The latter, however, refused to recognize Albuquerque's credentials and cast him into prison, from which he was only released, after three months' confinement, on the arrival of the grand-marshal of Portugal with a large fleet, in November 1509. Almeida having returned home, Albuquerque speedily showed the energy and determination of his character. On this date he became the second viceroy of the State of India, a position he will hold until his death.[2]
[edit]

Operations in Goa and Malacca, 1510-1511

Albuquerque intended to dominate the Muslim world and control the spices' trading network. [2] An unsuccessful attack upon Calicut (modern Kozhikode) in January 1510, in which the commander-in-chief received a severe wound, was immediately followed by the investment and capture of Goa. Albuquerque, finding himself unable to hold the town on his first occupation, abandoned it in August, to return with the reinforcements in November, when he obtained undisputed possession. He next directed his forces against the Sultanate of Malacca, which he subdued August 24th 1511 after a severe struggle. He remained in the town nearly a year in order to strengthen the position of the Portuguese crown. For that matter, he ordered the slaughter of all the Muslim population in an effort to reduce religious divergence hoping that it would force hindus and Muslims to convert to christianity.[3]
[edit]

Various operations, 1512-1515

In 1512 he sailed for the coast of Malabar. On the voyage a violent storm arose, Albuquerque's vessel, the Flor do Mar, which carried the treasure he had amassed in his conquests, was wrecked, and he himself barely escaped with his life. In September of the same year he arrived at Goa, where he quickly suppressed a serious revolt headed by Idalcan, and took such measures for the security and peace of the town that it became the most flourishing of the Portuguese settlements in India. Albuquerque had been for some time under orders from the home government to undertake an expedition to the Red Sea, in order to secure that channel of communication exclusively to Portugal. He accordingly laid siege to Aden in 1513, but was repulsed; and a voyage into the Red Sea, the first ever made by a European fleet, led to no substantial results. In order to destroy the power of Egypt, he is said to have entertained the idea of diverting the course of the Nile River and so rendering the whole country barren. His last warlike undertaking was a second attack upon Ormuz in 1515. The island yielded to him without resistance, and it remained in the possession of the Portuguese until 1622. Perhaps most tellingly, he intended to steal the body of the Prophet Mohammed, and hold it for ransom until all Muslims had left the Holy Land.
[edit]

Political downfall and last years

Albuquerque's career had a painful and ignominious close. He had several enemies at the Portuguese court who lost no opportunity of stirring up the jealousy of King Manuel against him, and his own injudicious and arbitrary conduct on several occasions served their end only too well. On his return from Ormuz, at the entrance of the harbour of Goa, he met a vessel from Europe bearing dispatches announcing that he was superseded by his personal enemy Lopo Soares de Albergaria. The blow was too much for him and he died at sea on December 16, 1515.

Before his death he wrote a letter to the king in dignified and affecting terms, vindicating his conduct and claiming for his son the honours and rewards that were justly due to himself. His body was buried at Goa in the Church of our Lady. The king of Portugal was convinced too late of his fidelity, and endeavoured to atone for the ingratitude with which he had treated him by heaping honours upon his natural son Brás de Albuquerque (1500—1580).[4] In 1576, the latter published a selection from his father's papers under the title Commentarios do Grande Affonso d'Alboquerque which had been gathered in 1557.[5]

The Indians long remembered his benign rule, and used to visit his tomb to pray him to deliver them from the oppression of his successors.


This is from:
http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/history.htm

Vice-Roy of India,  D. Afonso de Albuquerque, a military genius of the highest degree commanded a fleet of six ships manned by four hundred men, and entered Ormuz Bay, being surrounded by 250 warships and a 20.000 men army on land ready to dispatch the small Portuguese flotilla.

When the King of Ormuz sent aboard an emissary to question Albuquerque, the great Commander told the messenger one phrase: Surrender yourselves !!!

This must have provoked an inner laugh from the messenger who left.

When the battle begun, Albuquerque made his fleet circle like a carrousel and destroyed most of the ships. He then proceeded to conquer Ormuz with 400 men.


----------



## Spr.Earl

What's the oldest Air Base on the west coast of the U.S.?


----------



## Gunner

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> What's the oldest Air Base on the west coast of the U.S.?



March Field, Riverside, California?



> In 1918, an Aero Squadron training facility - March Field - was established on a dusty plain just southeast of Riverside. Created to train a new breed of the nation's military - airplane pilots - March Field was the first such base of its kind on the west coast and played a significant role during the the early years of the fledging Army Air Corps (later to become the autonomous US Air Force).



http://www.orange-empire.com/v02/cities/riverside/index.shtml


----------



## Spr.Earl

Corecto mondo and has a bloody good Museum on the west side of the Air Field,they have Jimmy Doolitle's full dress Uniform some of Hap Arnold's kit.
Load's off 1918 kit,a great museum with a good static ait craft disply from a B-52 Russian Air Craft and the the Centaph for the U.S. Dog Team's.

If my photo's turn out I'll post the Monument for the Dog Team's.


----------



## redleafjumper

When Field Marshal Rommel died (was killed)  there was a death mask made of his face.  There is a photo of it in Desmond Young's book _Rommel_. Where is this mask now?


----------



## The Anti-Royal

German Army Tank Museum, Munster.


----------



## redleafjumper

Damn! That was a fast response Anti-Royal and correct it is - Rommel's death mask (and one of his Afrika Corps Waffen frocks) is in the Deutches Panzer Museum of Munster.

What other German notable has a trade specific (clue) jacket on display in that museum?


----------



## vonGarvin

Hermann Goering?  Or perhaps Göring?


----------



## redleafjumper

No, it's not Goering.  A further clue might be the museum itself!


----------



## vonGarvin

Oberstgeneral Heinz Guderian?


----------



## redleafjumper

Jawohl, Oberst-general Heinz Guderian's waffen frock is quite appropriately on display in the German Armour Museum, next to Rommel's waffen frock.  Such history is contained in those walls.

What was the name of the transport vessel that delivered the first combat elements of 27 Canadian Infantry Brigade to Rotterdam on 21   November, 1951?


----------



## vonGarvin

Now, I just read something on this very subject a little while ago.  Operation PANDA (Pacific AND Atlantic).  Battalions formed of various companies of reserves to flesh out NATO in its infancy in Germany.  Ship's name?  Can't think of it.....


----------



## geo

During the early stages of the Korean conflict, which lasted from 1950-1953, the Government deemed it necessary to deploy forces to Western Europe to meet its NATO commitment. After much soul searching, military and government officials realized that Canada was in a new type of war that was dissimilar to the Second World War. The Cold War called for maintaining forces in being to deter enemy action and then hold ground until forces could be mobilized. Since the Canada-based brigade group was dual-rolled as a training and continental defence force and 25 Brigade was fighting Chinese Communists in Korea, forces would have to come from some other source. The problems with raising, training and deploying 25 Brigade were manifest, so Army HQ decided to create a total force brigade group for the NATO commitment. The line units of 27 Canadian Infantry Brigade Group consisted of three composite Militia infantry battalions (drawn from 15 Militia infantry regiments), a composite Militia artillery regiment (composed of personnel from six Militia regiments), a composite Militia engineer field squadron (two Militia field squadrons and a Militia engineer regiment), and a composite Militia Field ambulance (two Militia units). The regular Army provided a tank squadron which was actually a composite Militia-regular force sub-unit

Sean M. Maloney, War Without Battles: Canada's NATO Brigade in Germany 1951-1993 (Toronto: McGraw-Hill Ryerson, 1997) Ch. 1. [Back]


----------



## redleafjumper

Geo, that's a great answer from the same reference that I am using, but what ship did they arrive on?


----------



## mcchartman

*T.S.S. Canberra*?

Source: http://www.forces.gc.ca/dhh/downloads/ahq/ahq051.pdf
The ship in question: http://nla.gov.au/nla.cs-pa-http%253A%252F%252Fenc.slq.qld.gov.au%252Flogicrouter%252Fservlet%252FLogicRouter%253FPAGE%253Dobject%2526OUTPUTXSL%253Dobject.xsl%2526pm_RC%253DPICTQLD%2526pm_OI%253D5053%2526api_1%253DGET_DESCDOC%2526pm_OI%253D5053%2526pm_RC%253DPICTQLD%2526api_2%253DRETRIEVEINFO%2526pm_RELAY%253DPICTQLD%2526pm_OI%253D5053%2526pm_TPX%253D75%2526api_3%253DGET_OBJ%2526pm_RELAY%253DPICTQLD%2526api_4%253DGET_FILE_INFO%2526pm_OI%253D5053%2526pm_RC%253DPICTQLD%2526api_5%253DCOLL_GET_PEERS
(sorry for the long link)

EDIT: Actually, you mentioned that the ship you were looking for docked at Rotterdam on Nov.21/51, so the answer you are expecting is probably *M/V Fairsea*, an Italian ship.


----------



## redleafjumper

mcchartman is correct, the Fairsea was the vessel that delivered those elements of the 27th Canadian Infantry Brigade.

What is a frizzen?


----------



## mcchartman

Well I have to admit that I didn't know beforehand, but a simple google search revealed it is a piece of the flintlock mechanism. I'm interested in knowing if others around here know the meaning of a 'frizzen' on the top of their heads so I won't be saying anymore about which piece exactly it is so as to give them a chance to answer.

If you feel like cheating, here is the website where I found my information:
http://people.howstuffworks.com/flintlock2.htm


----------



## vonGarvin

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> What is a frizzen?


Is it a prison, but it's in the Arctic to keep the prisoners "friz"?   ;D


----------



## BernDawg

I believe it is the face of the lock that the flint actually strikes as it swings downward to ignite the powder in the pan.


----------



## redleafjumper

BernDawg and mcchartman have provided good information regarding the frizzen.  It is indeed that part of a flintlock that is struck to produce a spark.  It also covers the priming powder in the flash pan until the flint strikes the frizzen to spark and thus ignite the priming powder.


Who said: "Everlasting peace is a dream, and not even a pleasant one; and war is a necessary part of  God's arrangement of the world...  Without war the world would deteriorate into materialism."


----------



## geo

That until that day
The dream of lasting peace,
World citizenship
Rule of international morality
Will remain in but a fleeting illusion to be pursued,
But never attained -
Now everywhere is war - war.

(Bob Marley)

the Prussian general Helmuth von Moltke stated in 1880 that "everlasting peace is a dream, and not even a beautiful one,"


----------



## redleafjumper

Helmuth Von Moltke is correct, good work Geo.


----------



## geo

I thought the Bob Marley tie in was "cute" as well 

CHIMO!


----------



## redleafjumper

I didn't even realize that Moltke wrote for Marely...


----------



## geo

(giggle) and now you'll only be able to remember that Marley read Moltke 

(scarry thought - huh )


----------



## redleafjumper

It is a bit weird, but not that scary.  I'm just a little surprised that a) Bob Marley appears to have enjoyed some of the same reading material as me, and that b) Marley could read in German.     ;D


Here are two easy questions:  Who commanded the German battlecruisers at Jutland, and who is credited as being the architect of the Imperial German Navy before WW I?


----------



## geo

1) Grand Admiral Graff Spee
2)


----------



## mcchartman

2) Admiral Alfred Von Tirpitz!


----------



## geo

heheh

with an assist by Chancellor Bismark


----------



## redleafjumper

Some educated guesses; worthy of the answer.

The Commander of the German Battlecruisers at Jutland was Admiral Franz von Hipper (Admiral Reinhard Scheer was C-in-C), and the architect of the German Navy before WW I was, as correctly answered by mcchartman, Admiral Alfred von Tirpitz.

Geo's nod to Bismarck is quite reasonable.

Instead of another question, I offer my thanks to those soldiers of '44 who landed in Europe on June 6 from the air and the sea to take back Europe.


----------



## larry Strong

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Damn! That was a fast response Anti-Royal and correct it is - Rommel's death mask (and one of his Afrika Corps* Waffen frocks*) is in the Dutches Panzer Museum of Munster.
> 
> What other German notable has a trade specific (clue) jacket on display in that museum?



The correct terminology is 'Waffenrock", or "dress tunic', which was the equivalent of our DEU's. 

http://www.germanmilitaria.com/Heer/photos/H37755.html

if there is an Afrika Korps tunic (I am not familiar with the museum, and am not disputing that there is a tunic there.) it would be a "field tunic" or blouse.

http://www.germanmilitaria.com/Heer/photos/H37555.html


----------



## redleafjumper

Ja, Larry waffenrock is rechts.  Mein deutsch ist nicht sehr gut. And, it is one of Rommel's field tunics, not a dress one.
Thanks for the correction!  My German wife gave me a bit of "flak" over the mistake.


----------



## larry Strong

Thanks


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Here's a look at a Waffenrock, incidentally.

New question, then.  During the US Civil War, US President Abraham Lincoln was asked by a member of his family to grant a Presidential pardon after a service offence had been committed.  Lincoln granted the pardon despite the fact that the offending party never went to trial and was never formally convicted. Which family member asked Lincoln to grant the presidental pardon, and what was the offence?


----------



## geo

Aaron Pareira. A soldier in the Union Army during the American Civil War. He was an only son whose mother requested him at his dying father's bedside so that he could say first kaddish. His request for furlough denied by his captain, he slipped away to be with his parents. And although he returned to his base after his absence without leave and reported directly to his captain, he was court-martialed for desertion and faced the firing squad. The courts would not grant his appeal. He was perceived by the courts and the public as a deserter. His harsh punishment would serve as an example to discourage the increasing number of Union army desertions. Only his mother's direct petition to Abraham Lincoln himself could save her son's life through a Presidential Pardon. The President granted Mrs. Pareira a hearing. After reviewing all details of the case, Mr. Lincoln discerned an element of the heroic in Aaron Pareira's behavior: He had risked the certainty of severe consequences to do what his conscience dictated was the right thing to do. 

In spite of tremendous public, military, and judicial pressures, Lincoln granted Pareira this exceptional pardon. Abe Lincoln's judgment was not faulty. Pareira served with devotion, advanced to become an officer and was decorated for unusual bravery in action. His name stands in history with the other great Jewish American heroes. 


Each year the President of the United States pardons a turkey before Thanksgiving at a White House ceremony. The tradition's origin is uncertain. One story claims that Harry Truman pardoned a turkey in 1947, but the Truman Library has been unable to find any evidence for this. Another claims that the tradition dates back to Abraham Lincoln pardoning his son Tad's pet turkey. Both of these stories have been quoted in recent presidential speeches


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Good answer, but wrong - the family member in the question who requested the pardon was from Lincoln's family, not the offender's.

Fascinating story, though, geo.

It is also not Tad's pet turkey. 

Still not answered then...


----------



## redleafjumper

Michael, no seems to have gotten the answer to this one, so could you please post it and then we can move on with another question?

Thanks.


----------



## Rhibwolf

He did pardon Tad's Zouave doll after Tad had ordered his execution for sleeping on duty.


----------



## Spr.Earl

O.K In the Philippines what does K.K.K. mean 
Yes it's Miiltary History.


----------



## AmmoTech90

"Kataastaasan Kagalanggalangan Na Katipunan ng Mga Anak Ng Bayan". Loosely translated to mean the "Highest and Most Respectable Society of the Sons of the People." 

A nationalist movement who fought against the Spainish occupation of the Phillipines in the 1890s.

D

Edit: Source http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ph-histo.html


----------



## redleafjumper

The thread that never dies continues!   What is a Gerat 588 or GW 638/27?


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Rhibwolf said:
			
		

> He did pardon Tad's Zouave doll after Tad had ordered his execution for sleeping on duty.



From "The Civil War: An Illustrated History" by Geoffrey C. Ward (ISBN 0679742778) p. 94

Once (Tad) and their father had found that their doll had been found asleep on guard duty.

_The doll Jack is pardoned.

   By order of the President.
         A. Lincoln._

Well done. ;D


----------



## Michael Dorosh

new Question - did somebody teach the RCR beaver to stand up?

Answer is no.

Name the actual unit these badges belong to.

http://cgi.ebay.com/UNUSUAL-CANADIAN-MILITARY-PRO-PATRIA-COLLAR-INSIGNIA_W0QQitemZ320004424750QQihZ011QQcategoryZ4075QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

;D


----------



## George Wallace

"Canadian" may be misleading.  They could have been American, as many American Units have Latin and French Mottoes also, and the colours may have been purely coincidental.  My first impression, however, was that they were an RCR 'novelty' item for some function like a Bonspiel, or other sporting event.  

Interesting set of 'Collar Dogs'.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Those look more like bears to me.  Beavers have more of a raccoony hand in front, these guys have big flat bear feet.  This concludes our lecture "poorly represented mammals in popular culture".


----------



## Kat Stevens

1st Bn, 31st Infantry, Mechanized "Bearcats"  US Army


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

Slight correction or addition  the 31st Inf USA are the Polar Bears but the insignia is right

http://www.imjinscout.com/31stInfHistory.html

Haven't found anything about Bearcats, is it specific to the 1st Bn ?


----------



## George Wallace

So we have it, with picture and history, and some eBay customer will be confused to say the least.   ;D


----------



## Kat Stevens

AJFitzpatrick said:
			
		

> Slight correction or addition  the 31st Inf USA are the Polar Bears but the insignia is right
> 
> http://www.imjinscout.com/31stInfHistory.html
> 
> Haven't found anything about Bearcats, is it specific to the 1st Bn ?



My source was Acoy, 1st Bn, 31 Mech Inf Regt,  dunno if this is peculiar to A coy, or the whole of 1st Bn, but they call(ed?) themselves the Bearcats.


----------



## redleafjumper

So, any takers on what is a Gerat 588 or GW 638/27? (same thing)


----------



## geo

GW 638/18 was German WW2 Tracked SP gun 
the 638/27 would be a variant............


----------



## redleafjumper

Okay Geo, that's a pretty good guess.  Specifically, the Gerat 588 (a.k.a. GW 638/27) was a self-propelled heavy (150mm) infantry gun mounted on a Hetzer tank destroyer chassis.  6 were converted from existing Hetzers and 24 were made new.

What was the time of the 'Fokker Scourge'? What was the 'Fokker Scourge'?


----------



## Trooper Hale

The fokker scourge was in 1915 when the E1 came out, using an interupter gear to fire forward and shot down a lot of Allied aircraft. It was the DH2 that challenged it wasnt it?
What Australian light horse units were at the charge of Beersheba? And how many men died in that charge?


----------



## larry Strong

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Okay Geo, that's a pretty good guess.  Specifically, the Gerat 588 (a.k.a. GW 638/27) was a self-propelled heavy (150mm) infantry gun mounted on a Hetzer tank destroyer chassis.  6 were converted from existing Hetzers and 24 were made new.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was under the impression that they were designated as 15cm Schweres Infanteriegeschuetz 33/2 (Sf) auf Jagdpanzer 38(t) Hetzer
Click to expand...


----------



## redleafjumper

Jawohl, Larry das is rechts auf Deutsch!  15cm = 150mm    ;D


----------



## redleafjumper

On the Fokker Scourge, Trooper Hale is largely correct.  The winter of 1915/1916 was the time of the Fokker Scourge because the Fokker monoplane was armed with a machine gun synchronized to fire between the blades of the propeller.  The scourge lasted about 6 months.  The Vickers gun bus, the FE 2b and the Dehavilland DH 2  regained air superiority from the Fokkers.  Improved formation flying  helped.  Synchronized guns on the Bristol Scout arrived in April 1916. 


Lt. Gen Harry Chauvel commanded the Desert Mounted Corps under orders to capture Beersheba. The 4th, 11th and 12th Australian Light Horse participated in the charge at Beersheba.    (The 11th was in the reserve with the 5th British Yeomanry which also followed the charge by the 4th and 12th.)  In the actual charge, there were very few human casualties, but some horses were hit.  The opposing Turks failed to adjust for range and the charge successfully pressed home.  There was heavier fighting in the town which did cause more casualties.  Beersheba was captured in about an hour.  All in all a tremendous success for the ANZACs.  

The attack is portrayed in an excellent movie called "The Lighthorsemen."

Another question,  who was James McCudden?


----------



## Trooper Hale

McCudden was an ace in the RFC and was in the RFC from before the war i think (he started in the RFC in 1913?). He became a pilot in 1916ish and managed to survive into 1918 (quite a feat when the average life expectancy of a pilot or observer was about in 1916 was about a week). He won a VC in 1918 with close to 60 kills to his credit and died that same year. He was hero in every sense of the word. Feel free to add anthing i've missed (which is a lot!).
Well done to Redleafjumper, your right on to my knowledge with all the facts, especially the movie The lighthorsemen, I'd love to watch that about now. Although I've got to say it was a tremendous success to the Australians, the NZ'z weren't involved so it cant be an ANZAC victory.
34 men died in the charge, it was so low mainly because of the shock that occurred to the Turks, they didn't change their sight settings (as shown in the movie) and ended up firing over the Light horse as they came down the 2 miles of open ground.
As the movie says, 
"Only 34 died Sir, its a miracle"
"Not if your one of them"


----------



## redleafjumper

Good answer Trooper Hale.  Captain James McCudden, VC, DSO - 54 confirmed kills.  He rose from the ranks and became an inspiration to others.   He was killed in an accident in 1918.

The New Zealander paticipation near Beersheba consisted of other elements of Chavel's ANZAC Mounted Corps.  He had two divisions, each consisting of three brigades. The ANZAC Mounted Division (ANZACs) comprised the 1st and 2nd Australian Light Horse Brigades and the New Zealand Mounted Rifle Brigade.   The Australian Mounted Division included the 3rd and 4th Australian Light Horse Brigades and the 5th (British) Yeomanry Brigade. The Light Batteries of the Royal Horse Artillery were in support.  Tel es Saba was to the right of Beersheba and where the New Zealanders were deployed.  

Troops of Australia and New Zealand are both called ANZAC at that timer as they were part of the same corps.  Australia - New Zealand Army Corps.

Who were the first two German aviators to be awarded the 'Pour le Merite'?


----------



## vonGarvin

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Who were the first two German aviators to be awarded the 'Pour le Merite'?


Just a wild guess here:
Max Immelmann and Hermann Göring?


----------



## Michael Dorosh

von Garvin said:
			
		

> Just a wild guess here:
> Max Immelmann and Hermann Göring?



I'd guess Udet before Goering, but it would only be a guess.


----------



## Jantor

von Garvin said:
			
		

> Just a wild guess here:
> Max Immelmann and Hermann Göring?



You have the first one right but I think the second one was Oswald Boelcke.


----------



## Gunner

All about the Blue Max

http://www.firstworldwar.com/atoz/pourlemerite.htm

And its recipients

http://www.pourlemerite.org/

Leutnant Oswald Boelcke awarded on -- 12 Jan. 1916. (40 victories) 

Leutnant Max Immelmann awarded on -- 12 Jan. 1916. (15 victories)


----------



## Rhibwolf

in a similar question, which Canadian 2Lt was awarded the empire's most prestigious award for wing walking, and what were the circumstances?


----------



## redleafjumper

Leutnant Oswald Boelcke awarded on -- 12 Jan. 1916. (40 victories)

Leutnant Max Immelmann awarded on -- 12 Jan. 1916. (15 victories)


That is correct!


----------



## redleafjumper

Here's a new question, what is represented by the three white stripes on the collar of the US Navy uniform?


----------



## nowhere_man

Is it somthing to do with good seamanship or somthing? that was all i could find


----------



## Rhibwolf

The RN tradition is likely the birthplace of the USN's use, and it was ornamental, moving from two tapes to three at one point. (nothing to do with Nelson's victories.
In the USN, they used to use collar piping, but it was was eliminated in 1869 and replaced by stitching of "white thread - two rows, one-eighth of an inch apart, the first row close to the edge." In 1876 the piping was again changed to three rows of three-sixteenths-inch-wide tape on the jumper collar. It was purely decorative


----------



## redleafjumper

Rhibwolf is correct. There is a longstanding belief that the stripes originate from the British uniform and recognize Nelson's 3 greatest victories - the Nile, Copehagen, and Trafalgar; however the US Navy states at: 

http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/uniform_historical.htm

Three Rows of Piping - Piping first appeared as a decorative device during the 1840s which sailors added to break up the drabness of their uniform. In 1866 the collar flap was extended to nine inches to accommodate a standardized system of white piping to distinguish petty officers (three rows), ordinary seamen (two rows) and landsmen and boys (one row). Corresponding rows were displayed on the cuff.

In 1876 the white tape on the collar was standardized to three rows for all enlisted wearing the jumper, with rank to be determined by the petty officer insignia, and cuff stripes for the seaman ranks. In 1947, cuff piping was standardized at three rows for all hands since rating badges and added piping (diagonal white, red, green or blue stripes on the left sleeve) to denote rank was repetitious.

Again, the legend of the three collar rows to commemorate Nelson's sea victories is a myth and has no basis of fact in any authoritative history of uniforms. It evolved merely as a decorative device and, much later, served to distinguish between rates.


----------



## nowhere_man

I was close  :


----------



## redleafjumper

Nowhere_man, your answer is bit more a question than an answer. 

Here is another question: What was the significant decisive element at the siege of Harfleur?


----------



## geo

During the siege the English army had been hard hit by dysentery which continued to affect them after the siege ended. Henry left a small garrison in the town and on Monday 8 October set out with the rest of his army to go to Calais. He searched for an undefended or weakly defended bridge or ford on the Somme river hoping to slip past the French army but although he crossed the Somme he failed to evade the French army and was *forced to fight the Battle of Agincourt*


----------



## redleafjumper

Agincourt is a significant after-affect of that battle; however the real significance of Harfleur lay in the successful decisive employment of heavy siege cannon in reducing the city walls.  This battle can be said to have meant the end of of the walled city and castle as a successful method of defensive warfare.  The earlier part of the Wikipedia definition    from which Geo's answer is taken, does mention the siege guns, unfortunately, it does not emphasize the significance of their presence.


----------



## Spr.Earl

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> "Kataastaasan Kagalanggalangan Na Katipunan ng Mga Anak Ng Bayan". Loosely translated to mean the "Highest and Most Respectable Society of the Sons of the People."
> 
> A nationalist movement who fought against the Spainish occupation of the Phillipines in the 1890s.
> 
> D
> 
> Edit: Source http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ph-histo.html



Or for short "Katipunan".

 I went a visited Gen.Aguinaldo's house in Kawit,Cavite the home of the revolution against the Spanish and was taken all through his house and even up to the 6th floor of the tower which is only allowed to special dignitaries(last ones there before locking up for the night),I was in his library,personal bedroom,Alas I was not allowed to take any photo's as it's a State shrine to the Gen. and the Revolution and the Gov. control's all photo's and publication's about the house.The house is open to the public but only certain areas and admition is by donation.

 The house is made of nara and mahogany wood's,the floor plank's are 12" wide x 3" thick and any where from 10' long to 30" long.It's a must see if you ever get down that way.
Great pictoral history of the Philippino Revolution against the Spanish in the house.


----------



## Rhibwolf

any takers on this yet? 
hint - the award is not a wing walking award, this was part of what he did to win the award. 
hint 2 - the VC.



			
				Rhibwolf said:
			
		

> in a similar question, which Canadian 2Lt was awarded the empire's most prestigious award for wing walking, and what were the circumstances?


----------



## Cloud Cover

Rhibwolf said:
			
		

> any takers on this yet?
> hint - the award is not a wing walking award, this was part of what he did to win the award.
> hint 2 - the VC.



George Mullen?


----------



## Danjanou

Rhibwolf said:
			
		

> any takers on this yet?
> hint - the award is not a wing walking award, this was part of what he did to win the award.
> hint 2 - the VC.



The award of the VC to Alan Arnett MacLeod for his during actions  March 26, 1918

His Majesty the King has been graciously pleased to award the Victoria Cross to the undermentioned officer of the Royal Air Force, for services displaying outstanding bravery:

2nd Lieutenant Alan Arnett McLeod, Royal Air Force.

While flying with his observer, Lieutenant A. W. Hammond, M.C., attacking hostile formations by bombs and machine gun fire, he was assailed at a height of 5,000 feet by eight enemy triplanes which dived at him from all directions, firing from their front guns. By skilful manoeuvring he enabled his observer to fire bursts at each machine in turn, shooting three of them down out of control. By this time Lieutenant McLeod had received five wounds, and while continuing the engagement a bullet penetrated his petrol tank and set the machine on fire.

He then climbed out on to the left bottom plane, controlling his machine from the side of the fusilage, and by sideslipping steeply kept the flames to one side, thus enabling the observer to continue firing until the ground was reached.

The observer had been wounded six times when the machine crashed in "No Man's Land" and 2nd Lieutenant McLeod, notwithstanding his own wounds, dragged him away from the burning wreckage at great personal risk from heavy machine-gun fire from the enemy's lines. This very gallant pilot was again wounded by a bomb whilst engaged in this act of rescue, but he persevered until he had placed Lieutenant Hammond in comparative safety, before falling himself from exhaustion and loss of blood."

http://www.constable.ca/mcleod.htm


----------



## Trooper Hale

All i can say is a very genuine wow. Thats fantastic and not something you'd want to forget in a hurry. Simply brilliant.


----------



## Journeyman

Danjanou said:
			
		

> The award of the VC to Alan Arnett MacLeod...



I concur - - wow.


----------



## Danjanou

Three Canadian pilots (RFC and/or RAF) were awarded the VC during the First World War. We always seem to remember Bishop  and Barker  but not MacLeod. 

Not to slight in any way their accomplishments especially those that resulted in the citations for their respective VCs, but there is something about this one that really stands out. The wounded five times  and staying in the fight is worthy of a VC perhaps in it's own right. The dragging of an injured comrade out a burning airplane under fire and carrying him to safety under enemy fire would also probably have resulted in a VC or perhaps a bar to the initial award. It was the wing walking in between those two events though that really sticks out. 

I remember reading about this almost 40 years ago as kid (along with the exploits of Bishop, Barker and many of our other heroes) and as soon as I saw the question knew who it was.


----------



## Spr.Earl

Danjanou said:
			
		

> The award of the VC to Alan Arnett MacLeod for his during actions  March 26, 1918
> 
> His Majesty the King has been graciously pleased to award the Victoria Cross to the undermentioned officer of the Royal Air Force, for services displaying outstanding bravery:
> 
> 2nd Lieutenant Alan Arnett McLeod, Royal Air Force.
> 
> While flying with his observer, Lieutenant A. W. Hammond, M.C., attacking hostile formations by bombs and machine gun fire, he was assailed at a height of 5,000 feet by eight enemy triplanes which dived at him from all directions, firing from their front guns. By skilful manoeuvring he enabled his observer to fire bursts at each machine in turn, shooting three of them down out of control. By this time Lieutenant McLeod had received five wounds, and while continuing the engagement a bullet penetrated his petrol tank and set the machine on fire.
> 
> He then climbed out on to the left bottom plane, controlling his machine from the side of the fusilage, and by sideslipping steeply kept the flames to one side, thus enabling the observer to continue firing until the ground was reached.
> 
> The observer had been wounded six times when the machine crashed in "No Man's Land" and 2nd Lieutenant McLeod, notwithstanding his own wounds, dragged him away from the burning wreckage at great personal risk from heavy machine-gun fire from the enemy's lines. This very gallant pilot was again wounded by a bomb whilst engaged in this act of rescue, but he persevered until he had placed Lieutenant Hammond in comparative safety, before falling himself from exhaustion and loss of blood."
> 
> http://www.constable.ca/mcleod.htm



Thank's Danj. I never knew.
Men of steel and weapon's of wood and canvas.


----------



## redleafjumper

To continue with the early flight theme, who was the aviator and later fighter pilot dubbed by the French press as "The Foolhardy One"?


----------



## Jantor

My Google-fu is strong today  ;D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_ace

Adolphe Pegoud

How about this one?

What type of aircraft was William Barker flying when he fought the battle that would see him presented with the VC?


----------



## Gunner

What was known as the Cavalry of St George?


----------



## vonGarvin

The St George Cavalry?

 ;D


----------



## Danjanou

Barker was in a Sopwith Snipe the day he engaged some 50 odd enemy aircraft for which he was award his VC . Most of his victories were in a Sopwith Camel, but he was delivering a Snipe to an aircraft depot enroute to leave IIRC.

AS to St George I have to go with Knights most likely those during the Crusades

“He was adopted as the Patron Saint of soldiers after he was said to have appeared to the crusading armies during the Battle of Antioch in 1098. Many such similar stories were transmitted to the West by Crusaders who heard them from Byzantine troops. The tales were circulated even further by the troubadours. When Richard I (also known as "The Lionheart") was campaigning in Palestine during 1191 and 1192, he put his army under the direct protection of Saint George.”


----------



## COBRA-6

Gunner said:
			
		

> What was known as the Cavalry of St George?



Templars?


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

Gunner said:
			
		

> What was known as the Cavalry of St George?


British Gold Sovereigns, more specifically when they were paid out for information especially during the Napoleonic wars


----------



## Gunner

> British Gold Sovereigns,



Correct.  Read Sharpe's Regiment and the author discusses it in the introduction.


----------



## Danjanou

Damn I missed that one, and I'm a big Sharpe fan too. :-[


----------



## Gunner

I'm re-reading the series after many years.  If you have been overseas and think you may have trouble adjusting back in Canada, read Sharpe's Regiment.  It discusses Sharpe's thoughts and feelings while visting Great Britan after spending so many years in Spain fighting.  I thought it the author's comments were very revealing on how soldiers view their home country after being in an operational theatre.  As always, a good read.


----------



## redleafjumper

Hmm back to the Napoleonic period, I see.  Incidentally Adolphe Pegoud is  the correct answer as 'the foolhardy one'.  One of the first French Aces, his comrades referred to him as the patron saint of fighter pilots.  He was one of the first aviators to be referred to as an acrobatic pilot.

What is the origin, bore size and usual shot weight of a grasshopper gun?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

It was a small, light, 3 pounder that weighed about 500 lbs. It was designed in the late 1700's to keep up with fast moving Units of the British Light Infantry. Normally it was pulled by one horse, but could be dismantled and moved by about eight men. The gun was cast solid and then bored and lathe turned, making them strong, accurate and light.


----------



## redleafjumper

Good answer recceguy. They were also called grasshopper guns because they had a carriage too light for the gun and thus recoil would cause the whole thing to jump back and even flip.


----------



## nowhere_man

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> They were also called grasshopper guns because they had a carriage too light for the gun and thus recoil would cause the whole thing to jump back and even flip.



Sounds pretty safe, who'd they trick into firing that?


----------



## redleafjumper

Sometimes infantry - they were capable of being hauled by about eight men or one horse, and thus were sometimes used as a battalion gun.


----------



## Trooper Hale

Haha, 





			
				redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Sometimes infantry - they were capable of being hauled by about



Before i'd finished reading that i could have sworn you meant the infantry could be hauled around. Poor buggers. "What do you do?", "I'm artillery", "What gun do you use?", "No, no, I _am_ Artillery"

This is a great thread by the way, learn something everyday here.


----------



## nowhere_man

OK Ill try one, (hope it hasn't been asked)
How long did the Siege of Leningrad (the longest in modern military history) last?
And as a bonus how many Soviets died as a result of it?


----------



## vonGarvin

nowhere_man said:
			
		

> OK Ill try one, (hope it hasn't been asked)
> How long did the Siege of Leningrad (the longest in modern military history) last?
> And as a bonus how many Soviets died as a result of it?


I'm just going from memory, so...
Siege begins in August or September 1941.  I wasn't broken until sometime in early 1943.  
That's over 20 months.

I would also guess that 1 million citizens of Leningrad perished.  Many more soldiers perished in combat in the area around Leningrad.


Which German General (Later Field Marshall) was Commanding General of the 56th Panzer Corps, heavily involved in the initial seige?  Hint: he led the relief attempt into Stalingrad in late 1942, won the "third battle of Kharkov" through the use of his famous "backhand blow".


----------



## NavComm

The siege lasted from September 8, 1941, until it was lifted on January 18, 1944...casualties 300,000 military, 16,470 civilians from bombings and estimated 1 million civilians from starvation. I got these figures from Wikipedia. I believe the General/Field Marshall was Erich von Manstein?


----------



## vonGarvin

NavComm said:
			
		

> The siege lasted from September 8, 1941, until it was lifted on January 18, 1944...casualties 300,000 military, 16,470 civilians from bombings and estimated 1 million civilians from starvation. I got these figures from Wikipedia. I believe the General/Field Marshall was Erich von Manstein?


Of course I typed "early 1943" instead of "early 1944" D'oh!


And yes, it was Erich von Manstein


----------



## NavComm

OK, so I guess it's my turn to ask a question, I hope it hasn't been asked before.

How many ships were owned by the Canadian Navy when Britain declared war on Germany? What class were they and what were they named?


----------



## vonGarvin

NavComm said:
			
		

> OK, so I guess it's my turn to ask a question, I hope it hasn't been asked before.
> 
> How many ships were owned by the Canadian Navy when Britain declared war on Germany? What class were they and what were they named?


Which time? 1914 or 1939?


----------



## NavComm

sorry, guess I should have been more specific, 1939


----------



## andpro

The Canadian navy consisted of six river class destroyers : HMCS Frasier, Ottawa, Restigouche, Saguenay, St. Laurent and Skeena. In october of that year the HMCS Assiniboine joined the others.


----------



## Danjanou

There were also 5 minesweepers, 4 were Fundy Class: HMCS Comox, HMCS Fundy, HMCS Gaspe, and HMCS Nootka. Not sure what the fifth was.


----------



## couchcommander

Here's one for you VG...

After Manstein left 56 Panzer Corps on 13 September, 1941, when did he return to the Leningrad front? Here's a hint - he was still in charge of 11th Army and ended up fighting at Lake Ladoga.


----------



## nowhere_man

The siege lasted of Leningrad about 900 days, and the book I'm reading on Leningrad says between 700,000 to 2 million deaths for the Russians.
And as to Answer to your question Couchmaster I haven't advanced far into my book, Ask me again in about a week


----------



## vonGarvin

couchcommander said:
			
		

> Here's one for you VG...
> 
> After Manstein left 56 Panzer Corps on 13 September, 1941, when did he return to the Leningrad front? Here's a hint - he was still in charge of 11th Army and ended up fighting at Lake Ladoga.


Although I have "Verlorene Siegen" at home (Lost Victories), I'll refrain from referring to it, instead attempting to rely on my "memory brain" (as my 6 year old calls her noggin')
After his victory at Sevastopol, the 11th Army was then going to reduce Leningrad, as I recall.  As such, 11 Army was initially heading WAY up north (including the rail artillery, etc).  The individual divisions of 11 Army I think were parcelled off to various other Armies and Groups, but I'm fairly certain that HQ of 11 Army went up North, including v Manstein.  I believe he remained there from about July 1942 until recalled to the "Dirty South" of old Mother Russia in December 1942 in order to conduct the relief attempt at Stalingrad.  As I recall, his estimate is textbook Prussian staff work: meticulous.


How did I do?


----------



## couchcommander

Not bad for memory!

His HQ arrived in late august.. my copy of Lost Victories tells me August 27th to be precise.


----------



## 1feral1

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Kilroy was here.



I especially like the Kilroy drawing off of Clint Eastwood's "Kelly's Hero's" (1968), the Up Yours Baby! If anyone has seen this, you'll know what I mean.

Cold ones, 

Wes


----------



## Rhibwolf

When HMCS Bonaventure came over to Canada, what interesting contraption did she bring with her?


----------



## Jantor

3 X 6 pounder saluting guns???


----------



## BernDawg

The "Bonnie" was commissioned at Belfast on January 17, 1957, and arrived at Halifax on June 26, carrying on deck an experimental hydrofoil craft that was to serve in the development of HMCS Bras d'Or.

Of course this tid-bit was gleaned through an extensive and exhausting Google search. (First page, fourth hit.)


----------



## redleafjumper

During what action in the Napoleonic wars did British officers lead a charge shouting the battle cry "Vive l' Empereur!"?


----------



## Kat Stevens

Wesley 'Down Under' said:
			
		

> I especially like the Kilroy drawing off of Clint Eastwood's "Kelly's Hero's" (1968), the Up Yours Baby! If anyone has seen this, you'll know what I mean.
> 
> Cold ones,
> 
> Wes



When my dad was a youngun in London, their time was spent in search of an unblemished surface.  The inscription was then applied as follows: " Oh boy, oh boy, I could jump for joy, for I was here before Kilroy".   A reply ineveitably followed:" Alas my friend, too soon you spoke, for I was here but my pencil broke......Kilroy"


----------



## geo

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> During what action in the Napoleonic wars did British officers lead a charge shouting the battle cry "Vive l' Empereur!"?


Not sure about the leading a "frenchie" charge but, the 14th foot, PWOR did get caught behind french lines & their regimental band played "ça ira" as the regiment marched back across french lines in darkness.... Reg't chose to adopt "ça ira" as part of their regimental march thereafter.


----------



## redleafjumper

Oh, it wasn't a "Frenchie" charge - they were charging the French...

Anyone?


----------



## vonGarvin

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> During what action in the Napoleonic wars did British officers lead a charge shouting the battle cry "Vive l' Empereur!"?


Would it have been Waterloo, and instead of Napoleon, the "Empereur" was actually "Der Kaiser" of Prussia to whom they referred?


----------



## larry Strong

Tis the first time I am home since the middle of May, the wife changed on of the kids rooms into a "War Room" for me to display my library, and my medals and militaria, however all my books are in a mess.

Back then French was the languge of most European nobility. I think this question has more to do with people like Barclay de Tolly, and the other Scots who fought for the Russian Czar


----------



## redleafjumper

No correct answers yet...  Perhaps a small hint is in order.  They were using French as it was a language that they had in common with their allies in that charge.


----------



## redleafjumper

Another hint?  Okay, Napoleon was not yet an emperor at the time of this action.


----------



## Rhibwolf

this is tough!
I did find this, however....  13 Aug 1914
Stephen Burton of the Coldstream Guards rebuked his men. He said: "These French troops are our Allies; they are going to fight with us against the Germans." Whereupon one man said: "Poor chaps, they deserve to be encouraged," and took off his cap and waved it, and shouted "Vive l'Empereur!" 
-perhaps a big hint, (units involved, dates, location, ??)or allow us to "tap out"


----------



## redleafjumper

Okay, okay, here's a big hint:  Every British officer involved in this action, except the one killed, was knighted by the emperor of the allies with whom they charged.  The allies took 66 casualties and the French suffered 800 killed and some 400 wounded and lost 3 guns.


----------



## Rhibwolf

Best I could do....
Operating with the British army under the Duke of York, Austria's General Peter Ott undertook a personal reconnaissance of a reported French force near Cambrai.  With only 300 British and Austrian light cavalrymen he ran into a strong force of French cavalry at Villers-en-Cauchies. Withdrawal was the most sensible option, but then Ott discovered his emperor Francis I was close by and in imminent danger of capture. Spurring his men on to the attack, Ott scattered the first French opponents but then ran into formed French infantry backed by cannons. Without stopping to think about the almost-suicidal position against some 12,000 men, the Allied cavalry continued their assault over-running the guns and breaking both the infantry and its supporting cavalry.

What followed was a 12-kilometre pursuit that left some 1200 Frenchmen killed, wounded or captured.  Ott's stunning victory came at a cost of 66 casualties.


----------



## redleafjumper

Bingo.  Villers-en-Cauchies: Austrian Lt. General Otto had only 2 squadrons of the British 15th Light Dragoons (160 men) and 2 squadrons of Austrian Hussars (112 men) available.  Major Aylett commanded the two British squadrons and was the officer wounded (not killed as I earlier stated) in the action.  The allies were horribly outnumbered by the French regulars who were estimated at between 3,000 to 10,000 cavalry, infantry and cannon.  The squadrons believed that they were acting to save Emperor Francis I from being intercepted by the French.  The action took place 24 April 1794.  The officers charged shouting "Vive l'Empereur!" while the men stayed with the traditional "Huzzah!"


----------



## Rhibwolf

Man, I feel like I just gave birth to a history book.  That was a hard find.  Good question mate.


----------



## redleafjumper

Thanks Rhibwolf, the Napoleonic period is a bit of a specialty of mine.  

Let's do a WW2 navy one shall we? 

What  Norwegian port gave its name to a class of German ship?


----------



## larry Strong

I am probably wrong here,

Sleipnes Norway,

http://www.fallingrain.com/world/NO/9/Sleipnes.html

Torpedo Boats of the Norwegian Sleipner class

http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/captured/torpedoboats/tiger/index.html


----------



## redleafjumper

A good guess, but I did specify "ship".


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

I think it was Narvik which I think were Destroyers


----------



## larry Strong

Kudo's to you Sir 


http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/destroyer/zerstorer1936a/index.html


----------



## redleafjumper

Well done!  Narvik it is.

Let's do another navy one from WW2 shall we?

What ship shadowed the KM Bismarck by radar from 23 May until the morning of 25 May 1941?


----------



## probum non poenitet

HMS Suffolk, I think.


----------



## redleafjumper

Well-done probum non poenitet!  The County Class heavy cruiser Suffolk with its modern radar is the vessel that maintained contact with the KM Bismarck in the days leading up to the sinking of the German battleship.

Here's another question on the Bismarck:  

What vessel or vessels had a nearly identical side silhouette to that of the KM Bismarck?


----------



## probum non poenitet

Tirpitz ...

EDIT: and weren't Scharnhorst and Gneiseneau 'mini-mes'?


----------



## redleafjumper

Yes, the KM Tripitz, as the KM Bismarck's sister ship qualifies, but there are two other vessels that also share that (clue) larger ship's profile.

The KM Scharnhorst and the KM Gneisenau are different in not having the second aft turret.  What are those other vessels?


----------



## Koenigsegg

Were the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau not the "Gneisenau Class"?
and the Bismarck and Tirpitz the "Bismarck Class"?
Some people consider the Gneisenau Class to be battlecruisers, however most people call them Battleships...

And now, to try to answer your question...The Lutzow, Prinz Eugen and Seydlitz were similar in profile to the Bismarck class, especially from a far ways away.  they were part of the Admiral Hipper Class of heavy cruisers.  The Prinz Eugen was even painted _very_ similar to the Bismarck.

*Edit:  Woops, bad spelling!


----------



## geo

Battleships: Bismark & Tripitz
Pocket Battleships: Deutschland, Lutzow, Adms Scheer & Graff Spee  (Modern commentators favour classifying these as "heavy cruisers" and indeed the Kriegsmarine itself reclassified these ships as such (Schwere Kreuzer) in 1940
Battlecruisers: Scharnhorst & Gneisenau
Heavy Cruisers: Adms Hipper& Bluchers , Prinz Eugen,


----------



## redleafjumper

Koenigsegg  is correct - I forgotten about the Seydlitz, but the Hipper class of heavy cruiser had the same side profile as the KM Bismarck, however when viewed from the front or rear the broad battleship beam is readily evident.
Good information from others as to Kriegsmarine vessels.


----------



## Koenigsegg

Woohoo!
My first foray in this thread and I get something right!

Okay, I'm done.


----------



## geo

(pat on the back & a kick in the pants)
(your turn to ask a question )


----------



## Koenigsegg

Oh, crap...

Can I pass it off?...

If not, I have one...


----------



## geo

Shoot................


----------



## Koenigsegg

Okey dokey.

In 1943, Winston Churchill said this, in reference to what German naval vessel?  
"It exercises a vague general fear, and menaces all parts at once. It appears and disappears, causing immediate reactions and perturbation on the other side. If she were only crippled and rendered unseaworthy the entire naval situation throughout the world would be altered and the naval command in the Pacific would be regained"

(should be an easy one, just so you all know)


----------



## Kat Stevens

I'll avoid the obvious answer (Big B), and say the raider Atlantis...........?


----------



## Koenigsegg

Almost...But the "Big B" was sunk in 1941...


----------



## Rhibwolf

Negat - Tack-Tack.  It would be the Big T (irpitz)

Staying the present course, which harbour saw some pretty cool frogman action 10 days before the end of World War I which saw two Italians penetrate the booms and nets to sink the former flagship of the Austrian Navy, and what was that Flagship called?


----------



## Kat Stevens

D'oh! I need to learn to RTFQ a bit closer.  I had Atlantis and Kormorant in mind, two raiders that punched well above their weight class.


----------



## Koenigsegg

That would be the Viribus Unitis, no?
That was a touphy, required some looking up...


----------



## 3rd Herd

VIRIBUS UNITIS ('with joined forces'), 1st November 1918, northern Adriatic Sea at Pola (Pula) naval base (c 44-45’N, 13-45’E) - Italian 'Mignata' (or leech) self-propelled mines. With the fall of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the state of Yugoslavia was formed by the southern Slavs and declared on the side of the Allies. 'Viribus Unitis' (Capt Janko Vukovic de Podkapelski, also provisional Yugoslav Fleet commander) was taken over on the 31st October by the Yugoslav National Council as flagship of the new navy. Apparently ignoring the new political situation, the Italians went ahead with a planned attack on Pola. Early in the morning of the 1st November and with few defensive precautions now being taken, two Italian frogmen, Maj of Naval Engineers Raffaele Rossetti and Doctor Lt Raffaele Paolucci, slipped into the naval base and attached mines to the dreadnought and liner 'Wien'. Both ships sank, 'Viribus Unitis' capsizing and going down around dawn. Several hundred men died including the new Captain.
SOURCE:http://www.naval-history.net/WW1NavyAustrian.htm


----------



## Koenigsegg

Well, there you go, I forgot to look up the port, drat.


----------



## 3rd Herd

Koenigsegg said:
			
		

> Well, there you go, I forgot to look up the port, drat.



You also forgot to add your source


----------



## Koenigsegg

true say...and it will be a pain to find again.


----------



## 3rd Herd

On the 13th of January in 1842 British troops met a wandering doctor. What was his name and in what country did this meeting take place?


----------



## geo

The last, Doctor William Brydon, a surgeon in the Bengal Army,  his head and hands cut from sabre slashes, and  shot three times, rode his faithful pony as fast as it would carry him.  At one point, he actually threw the hilt of his broken sword at a pursuer, the useless weapon grazing the Afghan's head and causing him to turn and wheel away.  Exhausted and wounded, the pony stumbled on. Late in the day on the 13th of January, a sharp eyed sentry at the fort in Jalalabad spied a lone horse and rider emerging from the rocky valley above the fort. That solitary rider was the messenger of death. With the exception of two or three Indian sepoys, the prisoners and senior officers Elphinstone, Shelton, Pottinger, and Eyre, along with Lady Sale and a few other women and children, he was the only survivor of the over 16,000 souls who had left Kabul barely a week earlier.


http://www.jmhare.com/history6.htm


----------



## 3rd Herd

Well done Geo and thanks for the source info. How about another one. The first world war carnage drained troops away from this country resulting in the third war in sixty years. What was the the actual year the war was fought in, by jingo.


----------



## Rhibwolf

3rd Herd, Im not sure I understand your question.


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

3rd Afghan War ? 1919 (just checked it would have been 3rd war in 80 years 1st Afghan War 1839-1842, so wasn't that)


----------



## 3rd Herd

Congrats AJFitzpatrick,
with the sudden interest in the Bear went over the Mountain I have been a little thematic.
Batter Up


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

Well, my knowledge of the 19th Century Russian involvement in Afghanistan only comes from the  _Flashman_ series so i think I may have to disqualify myself henceforth.


----------



## Rhibwolf

In what might very well be the longest Freindly Fire incident in history  (~2 hrs 15 min) , three allied ships had at another for a considerable lenght of time during WWII in the Mid Atlantic.  
a) when was this collossal mistake made?
b) which ships were involved?
c) what was the impact on the Senior Officer's career?


----------



## redleafjumper

Given the overwhelming response, perhaps a clue might be in order.


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

Is the fact that it is "allied" and not "Allied" a clue ?


----------



## Rhibwolf

Agreed, a clue is in order.
It included three "Captain" Class Royal Navy Frigates obtained thru Lend Lease with the USN (1 former Buckley Class and 2 former Evarts Class), a US flagged C2 Refrigerator ship (an armed merchantman  BIG CLUE _ close eyes if needed - SS BLUE JACKET)
Happened 500 miles northeast of the Azores


----------



## redleafjumper

This one is a tough slog.  I don't have a record of this incident, and the desperate google search was also unhelpful.
Another hint?


----------



## geo

Very obscure..... find teasers all over the place but.. no detail.... where`s the beef?


----------



## Rhibwolf

Thats fair.  I will remove the "when" part and provide you with:
16 December 1943.


----------



## Cloud Cover

I don't think this is the guy you are looking for, but LCDR Brock (RCNVR) commanded the Dakins (K-550), a Captains Class Frigate.*  I don't think this is the one that went on to become VCNS in the RCN. If you can rule that out, then it will significantly narrow the scope of other options. 

*Of the Buckley origins. Note also the plural format for the name of this class.


----------



## Rhibwolf

Rhibwolf said:
			
		

> In what might very well be the longest Freindly Fire incident in history  (~2 hrs 15 min) , three allied ships had at another for a considerable lenght of time during WWII in the Mid Atlantic.
> a) when was this collossal mistake made?
> b) which ships were involved?
> c) what was the impact on the Senior Officer's career?


Okay, an answer is in order:  
16 Dec 43
Escort Group 3, comprised of HMSs Duckworth, Cooke, and Berry engaging SS Blue Jacket, 
the SO of EG 3 was Cdr Ronald Mills, RN.  He remained in command of EG3 and skipper of HMS Duckworth, sinking 5 U Boats in the next 15 months, ending the war with a DSO and DSC with 2 bars. He was promoted to Captain about 3 yrs after the Blue Jacket Incident.

On 16 December 1943, the US flagged merchant vessel BLUE JACKET (6,180 grt) was making just under 16 knots in overcast and misty weather with a brisk wind and a moderate swell running. She was heading for Cardiff to unload and was about 500 miles northeast of the Azores, keeping a careful watch for U-boats, when one of the ship's armed guard spotted a red flashing light. The BLUE JACKET was proceeding on a zigzag pattern when at 0315 GMT, several reports were received on the bridge reporting sightings of red blinking lights. The light seemed close, and OOW, peering into the darkness, could not determine at what distance the light shone. To cut a long story short, BLUE JACKET found herself engaged by three warships, and put up a spirited defence, holding them off. Later it was found that the three ships were HMSs BERRY, COOKE, and DUCKWORTH. Damage was inflicted by both sides, before the almost two hour long battle was ceased. The commanders of the British ships were all heavily criticised or reprimanded and the duty officer Western Approached HQ was also found to be at fault. Two members of BLUE JACKET's Armed Guard were commended by the USN.


----------



## redleafjumper

Well, this thread has been quiet for a while.

Here's a question:  What was the first recognizable rifle regiment in British service?

Here is a bonus related question: Who is regarded as the "...father of  British riflemen...?"

Enjoy!


----------



## geo

rifle company of the 6th/60th
Colonel Charles Hamilton-Smith

Though it might appear to be slow at times, the British Army did not stand still regarding the experimentation or introduction of acceptable new ideas during the Napoleonic Wars. This included questioning the suitability of red as the uniform colour for the army particularly for its light troops. One such experiment occured in 1800 being a controlled test on the effect aimed rifle fire had on coloured targets, these targets being either of a red, green or grey colour. The resulting tests showed that grey was the most suitable colour for a uniform and a recommendation was made for its adoption by Riflemen and Light Infantry. 

The tests were carried out by the rifle company of the 6th/60th under the supervision of Colonel Charles Hamilton-Smith. Years later he described the experiment in an article for the Royal Engineers.

http://www.militaryheritage.com/hamilton.htm


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

There was also the "Experimental Corps of Riflemen" formed 1800 later the 95th Regiment of Foot later to become the Rifle Brigade etc....

Someone needs to re-read their Cornwell  ;D

1800.08.25	The Corps of Riflemen
1802.12.25	95th Regiment of Foot
1812	95th Regiment of Foot (Riflemen)
1816.02.23	The Rifle Brigade
from www.regiments.org

Edited: to add dates


----------



## geo

Hmmm.... "late 1799"
Col Coote Manningham and Lt-Col the Hon William Stewart (of the 67th) put up a proposal for a specialised regiment of riflemen

01 apr 1800
1st parade of the Experimental Corps of Riflemen

Corps of Riflemen gazetted, effective 21 Oct 1800...........


----------



## redleafjumper

Some notable research here, but alas, no correct answer as of yet.  I refer to the term "in British service"  which I chose quite deliberately.  As a clue, the regiment in question was raised in 1799 by an exile.


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

Obviously this is not the "right" answer but I have found this
1794.02.27	Hompesch's Hussars 
1797.12.30	placed on British Establishment; new coys absorbing remnant of Hussars from Santo Domingo?
1798.01.09	Hompesch's Regiment of Mounted Riflemen
1802 disbanded

And then there is this
1798.01.12	5th (Rifle) Battalion, 60th (Royal American) Regiment of Foot
formed as a foreigners-only (chiefly German) rifle corps (the first rifle battalion in the Army) on Isle of Wight for service in America from disbanded Löwenstein's Chasseurs and Löwenstein's Fusiliers

but this is not a "rifle regiment" in the true British sense in that it is only a single battalion in the multi-battalion 60th regiment.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I thought the 96th was the first Rifle regt in the British Army wearing green?


----------



## BernDawg

Found this.  Any closer?

The Royal Irish Rifles were raised as the 83rd Regiment of Foot in October 1758. Disbanded in 1763 and raised again in 1793

From this site.

http://www.doyle.com.au/irish_soldiers_of_the_british_ar.htm

Cheers.


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

With regards to the Royal Irish Rifles, they only date (by that name) from 1881 as the amalgamation (to 1st and 2nd Bn) of the 83rd (County of Dublin) and 86th (Royal Count Down) Regiments of Foot. Not sure when the antecedent regiments were converted (if at all) to rifle regiments.


----------



## redleafjumper

AJFitzpatrick's answer is the closest yet - the Hompesch mentioned is Baron Carl Von Hompesch.  Between him and his brother Ferdinand, they raised some four units either partially or wholly armed with rifles for British Service.  All were subsequently absorbed by other units, mainly the 60th Foot before the temporary peace of 1802.

Unfortunately, while "bracketing" the correct answer, it is not the correct answer.  The unit asked about is a rifle regiment, not a battalion or smaller size unit (though it is true that some regiments of that time were composed of only one battalion); the other question refers to the author of the first manual for riflemen in August 1798.

Some great history coming forth out of these questions!


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

The Corsican Rangers ? 1799-1802
Haven't found too much about them except for this quote from Sir John Moore said "when Corsicans are in outposts ,I am sure of a quiet night." and that they wore Green and used Baker Rifles. 

from http://www.napoleon-series.org/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl?noframes;read=64198


> In September 1798 it was decided to raise a company of light infantry from
> emigre French and Corsican refugees, who had sough a secure haven on the
> baleanic island of Minorca. Seven Officers and about 226 NCOs and men
> constituted the first unit. Little more is known of this formation until
> July 1800, when Captain Hudson Lowe, of the 50th Regiment of Foot, was
> nominated Major to be in command. He had served in Corsica during the
> British occupation between 1794 and 1796, spoke French and Italian, and had
> good rapport with the Corsican people.
> 
> The unit, still known as the "Franc Tireur Corses" were sent to Gibraltar
> and so impressed Abercromby he arrange for their uniform to be improved,
> armed them with Baker rifles, and detailed them to be part of his
> forthcoming expedition to Egypt. They were bracketed with the 23rd
> Fusiliers, the 28th, 42nd Highlanders, the 58th, the 11th Light Dragoons
> and the Hompesch Mounted Rifles, in the Reserve, commanded by Brigadier
> General Oakes.



Also Hudson Lowe was in later years was the governor of St. Helena, Napolean didn't like that too much  :crybaby:
The Question of when they got the rifles is not resolved by that quote though

Edit: to add more information,


----------



## BernDawg

OK I found this.

In 1799 Baron Francis de Rottenberg wrote the British Army’s first manual for the Riflemen entitled Regulations for the Exercise of Riflemen and Light Infantry and the Instructions for their Conduct in the Field.   

          Born in Poland , de Rottenberg served in nine years in the French army and in 1791 returned to his native Poland to fight in the unsuccessful struggle to turn back foreign encroachments into his country.   After being wounded in 1794 at the Battle of Praga, De Rottenberg left Poland again and joined the British Army the following year.  As a lieutenant colonel, De Rottenberg was instrumental in the forming of Hompesch’s Light Infantry.  Three years later in 1798 this corps was combined with the 60th Regiment and became that regiment’s 5th Battalion.  That same year de Rottenberg’s Battalion was called into service in the Irish Rebellion.  It was after the rebellion that de Rottenberg found time to pen his manual for Riflemen.   Shortly after it went to print, de Rottenberg and 60th Riflemen were off to serve in the capture of Surinam ( Dutch Guiana in South America ) in August 1799.   De Rottenberg eventually rose to the rank of Brigadier General and served in Canada during the War of 1812. 

and I found it here...

http://www.militaryheritage.com/bakerrifle.htm

Is this it???


----------



## geo

Colonel Charles Hamilton-Smith and the 6th of the 60th
and deRottenberg with the 5th of the 60th.................

all working on disposing of the bright red jackets on the battlefield.......


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

Well the 60th Regiment is the antecedent regiment of the King's Royal Rifle Corps (1881) which is now part of the Royal Green Jackets (along with the former Rifle Brigade) and next year will combine with three  light infantry regiments to form "The Rifles". I'm glad I'm not in charge of designing the cap badge.


----------



## redleafjumper

Berndawg is correct as to the person called the father of the British Riflemen.  Baron Francis de Rottenberg it is!  Again, there is some real diligence being shown in finding those answers.

However, the rifle regiment formed in 1799 by an exile from _____ European country is still proving elusive.


----------



## vonGarvin

Just a guess, but would it be the First Regiment of United States Riflemen?


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

Even if one accepts the modern conception of the Anglosphere  ;D, The First Regiment of United States Riflemen although it was authorized in 1799  wasn't granted funds until 1808 .

from
 http://www.fortatkinsononline.org/1stRifles.htm


----------



## Rhibwolf

Légion de Managhetta, an Alpine Chasseur Regt in British Service. (the chasseurs were comparable to the British Rifles)???


----------



## redleafjumper

Wow, there are some great educated guesses here.  It has been a good run, so here it is:

According to De Witt Bailey, PhD, in his book _British Military Flintlock Rifles 1740-1840_,  pages 101-102, the exiled Prince of Orange raised a regiment of riflemen as part of the Dutch Emigrant Brigade in 1799.  The regiment was equipped with 1,012 Rifles with sword bayonets made by the Hesse-Cassel gunmaker And. Herman Thornbeck.  The regiment served in Lymington and at Jersey.  It seem that the forming of this regiment helped push the War Office into the decision to raise a purely British regiment.  Apparently the Prince Of Orange's regiment served as a template for the new British rifle regiment.

The documents suggest that this was the "...first recognizable rifle regiment in British service, as well as the largest at the time." 


Anyone else have a new question?


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

Name the four countries (not including Canada  ) to have stationed military units in  Canada or its antecedents (excepting training purposes).


----------



## Rhibwolf

Just a guess - Spain, France, Britain, Russia


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

Well that's definitely three of the four I was thinking of (France, UK, and Spain) but now I am wondering about Russia. Considering the Alaska boundary border wasn't settled until the late 19th Century I wouldn't be surprised if there was Russian trading posts in what is now Canadian territory. Whether these posts had a military component is another question. There still remains one other country.


----------



## George Wallace

I'd go with the US of A, Britain, Russia and France.


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

And that's the last one (USA).

I'll assume that no one needs a source for the US, French and British presence

From Canadian Military Heritage



> In Europe, meanwhile, interest in Nootka diminished considerably.  In February 1793 Great Britain and Spain had become allies in a war against France!  The problems of the northwest coast already seemed far away, and the two allies signed an agreement on January 11, 1794, in which they agreed to abandon the region.  That same year the Catalan volunteers in garrison at Nootka were relieved by some 20 soldiers of the Compania fija de San Blas, which mounted the guard until March 23, 1795.  On that day, following an official farewell ceremony attended by marine lieutenant Thomas Pierce, representing England, the Nootka presidio was dismantled.  The artillery and the garrison were loaded onto the Activa, which sailed southward.  Thus ended the reign of Spain on the northwest coast


----------



## Kat Stevens

Ireland, Wales, Scotland, and England... you did say countries, right?  ;D


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

One could argue for Newfoundland as well I suppose.


----------



## redleafjumper

You left out Germany, notwithstanding the weather station in Labrador during WW2, one might also consider the armoured formation that used to operate out of Shilo.


----------



## Pistolman 71

Okay. Here's a fun one.

             Zipperheads.

    How did the Lord Strathcona's Horse (R.C.) get this nickname ? And why ?


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> You left out Germany, notwithstanding the weather station in Labrador during WW2, one might also consider the armoured formation that used to operate out of Shilo.



Can't say I knew about it, but was it more than a training formation?, I excepted training units otherwise I'd have to include all the NATO countries that trained out of Goose Bay. 

With regards to Zipperheads, I though it applied to all armoured units and it referred to the full length zipper on the head gear


----------



## BernDawg

I was always under the belief (as per common knowledge/urban legend) that the zipperheads (all armoured types) got the name from the abundance of hatch ring/periscope scars they sport on their foreheads.  ;D  

ps.  That is, of course, if that's what we're talking about.


----------



## redleafjumper

Zipperhead?  I always understood that this was from either the grease marks or hatch scars on the forehead.  The German weather station in Labrador was an enemy installation; the German unit in Shilo was a training formation for Leopard tanks.


----------



## rmacqueen

The term zipperhead does indeed apply to all Canadian armoured soldiers.  The actual origin, though, appears to be lost to history.  Some accounts say that it refers to the wearing of a form of headgear that had a zipper in it which doesn't seem to jive with the account that the Essex Regt adopted the wearing of the black beret.  Other accounts say it is due to the hatch/periscope/gun sight scars on the foreheads of tankers.  I would be interested in any definitive information that could be provided.


----------



## geo

Zipperhead is not exclusive to the LSH... it is exclusive to the members of the Armoured corp.
Headgear with zippers?..... that's their head!!
Big stitches (zippers) for the ORs and small stitches for the Officers.


----------



## orange.paint

A Zipperhead is a gentleman; courageous, honourable and intelligent (not to mention incredibly handsome). Women want to be with him and men want to be him. 

Zipperheads are blessed by the by the Holy Trinity of Armour, Firepower, and Battlefield Mobility.

why would they call us anything else George ??? ;D ;D


----------



## George Wallace

rcac_011 said:
			
		

> A Zipperhead is a gentleman; courageous, honourable and intelligent (not to mention incredibly handsome). Women want to be with him and men want to be him.
> 
> Zipperheads are blessed by the by the Holy Trinity of Armour, Firepower, and Battlefield Mobility.
> 
> why would they call us anything else George ??? ;D ;D



I don't know, but that sounds mighty fine.

I managed to keep my skull intact and away from crashing into sights and hatches, but unfortunately not from my Flatrack one day pulling out of a Hide.   ;D


----------



## geo

(how many stitches?)


----------



## George Wallace

(three or four - those pallets aren't too soft)


----------



## geo

hehe....
I have something in excess of 150 stitches......... 
(bump.... bam!)


----------



## George Wallace

All of mine totalled would never match that.  Out Wrastling with a Grizzly were you?


----------



## geo

nah..... 
but a certain Bailey panel had my number (and blood) all over it.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Zippers are installed after your TQ3. It makes it easier for us to repack the sawdust. ;D


----------



## rmacqueen

geo said:
			
		

> nah.....
> but a certain Bailey panel had my number (and blood) all over it.


Ouch


----------



## geo

Yup....

There was a time when laced in zippers were a popular item for combat boots...... pert much all drivers & QM types wore em..... but they were lousy support for the ankles


----------



## George Wallace

....Those were to go with the Army Issue Disco Suit......I mean the AFV Suit, which we used in Germany, to tell all the girls in the Disco that we were Pilots.   ;D  AH!  Those Friday and Saturday nights on Fall Ex!  ........


----------



## Colin Parkinson

George Wallace said:
			
		

> ....Those were to go with the Army Issue Disco Suit......I mean the AFV Suit, which we used in Germany, to tell all the girls in the Disco that we were Pilots.   ;D  AH!  Those Friday and Saturday nights on Fall Ex!  ........



Not to mention the handy handle on the back so you can drag your friend home from the bar.


----------



## geo

hehe... carrying handle at point of balance


----------



## BernDawg

Ya but the wedgie... Oyvey!!


----------



## rmacqueen

George Wallace said:
			
		

> ....Those were to go with the Army Issue Disco Suit......I mean the AFV Suit, which we used in Germany, to tell all the girls in the Disco that we were Pilots.   ;D  AH!  Those Friday and Saturday nights on Fall Ex!  ........



Wonderful item of apparel for winter ex, especially when one had to use the thunder box.


----------



## Danjanou

George Wallace said:
			
		

> ....Those were to go with the Army Issue Disco Suit......I mean the AFV Suit, which we used in Germany, to tell all the girls in the Disco that we were Pilots.   ;D  AH!  Those Friday and Saturday nights on Fall Ex!  ........



You forgot the stylish AFV jacket for those chilly Autumn Bavarian nights strolling back to your track...alone. 8)


----------



## scoutfinch

George Wallace said:
			
		

> ....Those were to go with the Army Issue Disco Suit......I mean the AFV Suit, which we used in Germany, to tell all the girls in the Disco that we were Pilots.   ;D  AH!  Those Friday and Saturday nights on Fall Ex!  ........



You laugh but my ex-husband actually tried this one on me... unfortunately for him, I grew up playing on tanks so he didn't fool me for a minute.  (hmmm... maybe there is a reason he is my EX husband! )


----------



## George Wallace

rmacqueen said:
			
		

> Wonderful item of apparel for winter ex, especially when one had to use the thunder box.




This is why you kept it nice and clean and in your dufflebag, to use on those weekends when you were leaguered outside a town with a Disco.



			
				Danjanou said:
			
		

> ................those chilly Autumn Bavarian nights strolling back to your track...alone. 8)




Alone?  There was usually more than one of us......that is where the 'carrying handles' came in handy... ;D

Oh!  You meant 'Sans Frauline'.........maybe that was why their fathers plied us with Schnapps?  We would usually get even the next night when we plied them with CC.   ;D

Tanks liked to overlook towns at night and use the Low Light Cameras.  "Gunner.....Traverse Your Arcs!"




			
				scoutfinch said:
			
		

> You laugh but my ex-husband actually tried this one on me... unfortunately for him, I grew up playing on tanks so he didn't fool me for a minute.  (hmmm... maybe there is a reason he is my EX husband! )




Ummmm!  Did he also follow the "Hundred Kilometers or the First Bridge Rule"?


----------



## scoutfinch

hmmm... is that like the "I am separated" (by a body of water)...line???


----------



## redleafjumper

Hey,is the question fo the hour getting side-tracked here?  Okay, here is a new question:

What was the price of the beer at the establishment where Mr. Coates got himself in trouble?


----------



## scoutfinch

Too easy.... Tiffany's.


----------



## geo

Hmmm.... 4 DMs to the Cdn $ at the time - if memoryserves me right...


----------



## scoutfinch

Yep... sounds right to me.


----------



## redleafjumper

Gee, I must have gone in high season - I recall 10 DM a beer back in the early '80s - and yes it was Tiffany's (and as of 2003 it was still in operation!).  Sip and savour...

It is frightening how quick the responses were on that one!


----------



## scoutfinch

10DM beer would be the equivalent of $2.50.... highway robbery, if you ask me!!! I used to get a decent bottle of table wine at the Canex for 6DM!


----------



## George Wallace

Crap!  It was only 2DM to the CAD when I was over there, but the 500 ml biere anywhere else than Tiffany's was 2 Mark 50.  Now, I think it is 2.5 Euros......Now that is Highway Robbery..........but no comparison to what we pay for booze (TAXES).

So.....What was the name of the Disco attached to Rosies?







Just keeping the Questions going.....


----------



## redleafjumper

I take it you mean Rosie's in Edmonton?  That's too far back for these brain cells to recall.


----------



## George Wallace

Actually Rosies in Lahr, across from the Volksbank, near the Berda Werks and Bus Barns.


----------



## scoutfinch

Hmmmm.... was it called The Ocean or was that the disco in Schmieheim?


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I remember Klein Canada used to give you a free shot of rotgut for your first visit.

The 2nd time I went there for Reforger, all the guys wanted someone to take them to the sexclubs, I said I would if they bought the beer, I made this agreement while in a normal Gastoff (spelling?) where the beer was cheap, the guy were shocked at how much beer was at the clubs!!

I remember as a kid wanting to go into the local topless bar, which closed down before I came of age. Going to the one in Germany shattered my fantasy as the barmaid came by with a couple of bushes in her armpits and breast that lost the war to gravity some time ago.


----------



## geo

Ohhhh.... the innocence of youth


----------



## George Wallace

.....and not enough biere!


----------



## geo

Oh the 1st time I came across the bier lady that carries 4-6 x 1 liter steins ........

Ach du lieber..... wunderbar!!!


----------



## Danjanou

Alright young uns helmets on, the old Cold Warriors have come to hijack this thread and stroll stagger down memory lane. :warstory:


----------



## George Wallace

King's Club
Taverne
Terrase
Drops Disco
The Bunker
The Keller Bar
Tiffany's
Krone
Hansa Stube
Disco 77
Piano Bar
  

Next to Rosies was Trocadaro's


----------



## Rhibwolf

Rosies was actually called Der Gute Quelle (the good spring or fountain)  It was primarily a gunner hang out when i was there from 86-92. Beer was about 3-4 DM, coca cola was more.  Trocs was on one side, and did booming business until the BComd forbade us all from going after 5 vandoos nearly killed a gunner named Doss. Beer there was 5dm, cola was 6dm.   On the other side was Cherie's cabaret.  beer was expensive, and piccolos of sekt cost about 50dm  (or so Im told)

I used to like Number 1 (by the Fiat factory)


----------



## redleafjumper

Wow, there are some impressive battle honours there; I remember a disco near Mannheim called Pinnochio's.  We were all told to keep away from it and when we showed up the doorman (through his narrow slit) took one look at us and said "F%&* Off! No Americans!", and promptly slammed the vision slit shut.  We responded by pounding on the door and insisting that we were "nicht Amerikaners, kein yankees!" and repeating "Kanadsich Soldaten"  He carefully examined our dog tags, checked with his boss, and we were in. "Canada okay, kein Amerikaners!" It was a nice quiet place and we all had a great time.

What was the Khedive's Bronze star awarded for, and what medal was it awarded with?


----------



## 211RadOp

I remember walking into the KK when I first got there with my sponsor. Enjoyed the little place so much, I became a regular. I was there so much that during my last year there, the owner, who had just seperated from her husband and was dating a buddy of mine, would get me to bartend when she was either too drunk (and I was soberer??) or going to get stock. Lots of free Pils for this old signaller.

Also haunted the CC, Legion, #1, Terrace and many more that my poor besooted brain cells can't remember  :-\


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> What was the Khedive's Bronze star awarded for, and what medal was it awarded with?


Awarded by the Khedive of Egypt
1882 Egyptian Rebellion as a service medal (also 1884, 1885-6, 1886-9, 1890) Clasp for Tokar (Feb 19th, 1901).
 I am guessing that it was awarded typically with the Egypt Medal (1882 and 1884 versions) [13 clasps]


----------



## BernDawg

Beat me to 'er.  Here's what I found.

Egypt Medal and Khedive's Star
Soldiers who fought in Egypt between 1882 and 1889, regardless of rank, were presented with the Egypt Medal and the Khedive's Star. The Egypt Medal is made from silver; the obverse (front) has Queen Victoria's head and the Latin inscription 'Victoria Regina et Imperatrix' [Victoria, Queen and Empress] and the reverse (back) has a Sphinx and the inscription 'Egypt.'

Found it here.

http://www.durham.gov.uk/recordoffice/usp.nsf/pws/Durham+Record+Office+-+The+Learning+Zone+-+The+Story+of+Jimmy+Durham+-+The+Finding+of+Jimmy+Durham+-+Egypt+Medal


----------



## redleafjumper

Yes, that's the correct information on the Khedive's Bronze Star.

What is/was the polar medal awarded for?


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Might it be this?








Presented by the reigning monarch, the polar medal was instituted in 1904 for members of Captain Scott's first expedition to the Antarctic. It was struck in both bronze and silver until 1939, when the award of the bronze medal was discontinued.


Initially a minimum period of service in the Antarctic of at least 12 months was required and emphasis was placed on service in support of the team effort in the harsh weather and dangerous conditions encountered, as well as on individual effort. The award was made on the recommendation of the Admiralty, or in the case of Commonwealth countries, by the appropriate Minister of State. 

In 1954 the regulations governing the award of the medal were revised. It was made clear the medal was to be conferred on those who took an active part in an expedition which made notable advances in the exploration of the polar regions and underwent the hazards and rigours of the region, whether on land, sea, or in the air, and was only open to those serving an expedition organised or recognised by UK or Commonwealth governments, and that in extraordinary circumstances those supporting polar exploration, rather than directly taking part in it, could be given the medal.

Further Royal Warrants in 1970 and 1998 updated the conditions of award. Since 1998 the 'service in support of the acquisition of knowledge of Polar regions shall normally be at least ten years' such service in order to be considered for the medal' and a greater emphasis is now placed on individual service. 

The 1998 revision of Regulations added to the geographical area in which service was required by including a number of islands, and for the first time made reference to the United Kingdom Polar Medal Assessment Committee, made up of distinguished individuals with a wide knowledge of polar affairs who are responsible for examining recommendations received for the award of the medal.

Information from: http://www.antarctica.ac.uk/News_and_Information/news_stories/2003/Polar_Medal/index.html


----------



## redleafjumper

Well done Nfld_Sapper.  That is indeed the polar medal.

What was the largest ship in the Spanish Armada?


----------



## Nfld Sapper

You mean in their modern navy? or the historic one?


----------



## redleafjumper

The Spanish Armada of 1588 historical fame is the one I refer to.


----------



## Bill Smy

True or false?

The number of hooves lifted into the air on equestrian statues reveals how the riders died.


----------



## vonGarvin

Bill Smy said:
			
		

> True or false?
> 
> The number of hooves lifted into the air on equestrian statues reveals how the riders died.


So, I've got a 50/50 chance on this one (Schrödinger notwithstanding), so I'll say "yes".  Can't remember where I heard or saw that, but I believe that if all hooves are on the ground, that person died of natural causes, but if the horse's hooves (2 at least) are off, then they died in battle?


----------



## armyvern

Bill Smy said:
			
		

> True or false?
> 
> The number of hooves lifted into the air on equestrian statues reveals how the riders died.



I'm gonna go with FALSE.

I found this site:
http://soccerdad.baltiblogs.com/archives/2006/08/21/gettysburg_military_monday_10.html

Which contained a link to this:
http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usamhi/bibliographies/ReferenceBibliographies/animals/Horses/equestrianstatues.doc



> USAMHI									Animals-Horses
> RefBranch
> js 1981
> 
> NOTE:     CODED MESSAGES IN EQUESTRIAN STATUES?
> 
> Any relationship between the number of raised hooves on a horse‑and‑rider statue and the rider's actual experience in battle is merely a coincidence, as reflected in equestrian statues at Gettysburg National Military Park, according to Ms. Kathy George, park historian.  Searches there and here have found no substantiation for any such coded messages.  For example, several booklets concerning dedication ceremonies for equestrian statues, such as the Slocum and Sedgwick statues at Gettysburg (see E467.1S59N5 &‑S4C7) contain nothing about the significance of the hooves.  For further example, note that the Gettysburg statue of Gen John F. Reynolds, who was killed at Gettysburg, differs from his Philadelphia statue.  See:
> 
> Reynolds Memorial Assoc.  Unveiling of the Statue of General John F. Reynolds, Philadelphia,
> September 18, 1884.  n.p., n.d.  40 p.  E173P18no211pam22.
> See frontispiece photo.
> 
> Stauffer, Wm H.  "Round Table Talk:  There's No General Rule About Position of Feet on 	Equestrian Statues."  Civil War Times II (Jul 1960):  p. 6.  Per.


----------



## vonGarvin

I guess I was wrong.

 :crybaby:


----------



## Shec

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Well done Nfld_Sapper.  That is indeed the polar medal.
> 
> What was the largest ship in the Spanish Armada?



The 52 gun _Galeon de Florencia_ ?

What was "Tiger Force"?


----------



## redleafjumper

No, that's not the correct ship.  As a clue the largest ship in the Spanish Armada was an Italian vessel weighing at least 1,300 Tons.

Anyone know it yet?


----------



## geo

Tiger Force was a reconnaissance platoon of the 1st Bn, 327th Infantry Regt, 1st Bde, 101st Airborne Div, which fought in the Vietnam War, between November 1965 and November 1967. The unit, consisting of one platoon of 45 infantrymen was formed by Major David H. Hackworth in November, 1965 to "outguerrilla the guerrillas," a platoon was known as a "recondo unit" because it was to carry out reconnaissance and commando functions. Tiger Force became one of the war's most highly decorated units, paying for its reputation with heavy casualties. In 1966, the unit was awarded the Presidential Unit Citation by President Lyndon B. Johnson for its operations in Vietnam.

The unit, has since been accused of committing various war crimes, including indiscriminate attacks, rape, mutilation, and torture. Some reports by former members of this unit state that the soldiers wore necklaces composed of human ears.


----------



## Bill Smy

Found the answer at this interesting site:--

http://www.snopes.com/military/military.asp


----------



## geo

uhhh.... answer to what question?


----------



## larry Strong

Horse's feet on a statue


----------



## Shec

geo said:
			
		

> Tiger Force was a reconnaissance platoon of the 1st Bn, 327th Infantry Regt, 1st Bde, 101st Airborne Div, which fought in the Vietnam War, between November 1965 and November 1967. The unit, consisting of one platoon of 45 infantrymen was formed by Major David H. Hackworth in November, 1965 to "outguerrilla the guerrillas," a platoon was known as a "recondo unit" because it was to carry out reconnaissance and commando functions. Tiger Force became one of the war's most highly decorated units, paying for its reputation with heavy casualties. In 1966, the unit was awarded the Presidential Unit Citation by President Lyndon B. Johnson for its operations in Vietnam.
> 
> The unit, has since been accused of committing various war crimes, including indiscriminate attacks, rape, mutilation, and torture. Some reports by former members of this unit state that the soldiers wore necklaces composed of human ears.



Thanks.  I didn't know that nor was I thinking beyond a Canadian context.   Perhaps I should have been more precise.  I was referring to the WWII RCAF bomser group that was programmed to go to the Pacific theatre after the war in Europe ended.

http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/14wing/about_us/history7_e.asp


----------



## BernDawg

La Regazona

Although Candish, on the western coast of America, and Drake on the coast of Spain, had done King Philip great damage in the preceding year, yet -so vast and universal a preparation as the latter was making against England was not easily overthrown. For three years Philip had been employed in preparations, and at length had got together the fleet, called by the arrogant name of the "Invincible" Armada, on which the treasures of the Indian mines had for these three years been spent. In the six squadrons there were sixty-five large ships, the smallest of 700 tons, seven were over 1000 tons and La Regazona, an Italian, was of 1300. They were built high like castles, their upper decks musket-proof, their main timbers four aud five feet thick." Next the galleons were four galleases gigantic galleys, carrying fifty guns each, 450 soldiers and sailors, and rowed by 300 galley slaves. 

From here:

http://www.welbank.net/hawkins/pah/chap4.html


----------



## rmacqueen

Saw a show last week on the Spanish Armada and using computer models and tracking the weather they hypothesised that the Spanish actually were a victim of the gulf stream.  Their contention was that when the Spanish headed north around Scotland they unknowingly sailed directly into the Gulf Stream(North Atlantic Drift) and because they were using dead reckoning for navigation they were actually closer to the coast than they thought.  Thus, when they turned eastward for what they thought was home they ran directly into the coast of Ireland and Scotland and by the time they realized their mistake they were too close to sail away and were blown ashore.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Battlefield Britain did an excellent job of showing how the Armada met its watery end.  An outstanding series that shows up on History, or TLC or something every now and then.


----------



## redleafjumper

Bern Dawg is correct.  La Regazona was the largest vessel in the Spanish Armada.


----------



## geo

the Urban Legends Reference Pages, addresses this very question. 

As the page explains, the theory is that on a statue of a solider on horseback, if the horse is depicted with one hoof off the ground, the soldier was wounded in battle (and may have died later from the wounds); Two raised hooves indicate that the soldier died in battle. If the statue shows all four hooves on the ground, the rider survived all battles unharmed. 

As you may have guessed, the site declares this theory to be nothing more than an urban legend, and lists a number of statues that do not conform to the code. 

A further search phrase, this time honed down to a sleek "statue hoof," led us to a lively message board discussion on the topic. 

One thoughtful and in-depth post offers the following opinion: 

The number of the horse's feet taken up from the ground has nothing to do with any attribute of the person depicted and everything to do with the skill of the sculptor and his ability to overcome nearly insurmountable problems in solid geometry, stress of materials, and other aspects of civil engineering...
A post on another message board states that the statue code is only true of Civil War statues found at Gettysburg. But, following a link in another post, we visited the web site of the U.S. Army Military History Institute. There, a park historian from Gettysburg National Military Park asserted, "Any relationship between the number of raised hooves on a horse-and-rider statue and the rider's actual experience in battle is merely a coincidence..."


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

Inspired by the Armada question

What was the name of the last wooden warship sunk by enemy action and the circumstances?


----------



## redleafjumper

HMS Wellesley?  Kind of a tricky question!

Built in 1815, HMS Wellesley was literally demolished dockside by a 500 pound bomb during a night time German air raid on Portsmouth naval base, March 10-11, 1941, thus gaining the distinction of being the last wooden ship of the line to be sunk by enemy action.

HMS Victory suffered some damage to 120 square foot of her hull when a 500 pound bomb fell & detonated between the wall of her dry dock, her hull, and the cradle she rests upon. She proved extremely resilient in the low degree of damage she took as a result.

It was initially considered a German mistake - sheer luck - but as time has passed some have made a reasonable argument that the Germans became aware that up to 6 of Britains old ships of the line were utilized quite often as conference sites by British Naval Officers.


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

That's the one and it was deliberately tricky.

Another one, everyone knows that the oldest ship in commission in the RN is HMS Victory; what is the second oldest ship in commission in the RN?


----------



## larry Strong

HMS Caroline 3rd oldest warship after HMS Victory and USS Constitution


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

Correct Again

HMS Caroline; 
commissioned 4 December 1914 
Amongst other things she is the last survivor of the Battle of Jutland, is the last afloat training establishment in the RNR, is the HQ of the RNVR Ulster Division, and set the fastest build time of any _significant_ warship, 9 months from keel laid til launch.
Moored at Belfast she is scheduled to remain in commission until 2011.

Sourced from the wikipedia page


----------



## larry Strong

Thank you, feel free to post, I just like trying to answer them, hope thats ok.


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

No problems, I just ran out of questions for a bit. 
What was the name of the Infantry Bn that Winston Churchill commanded in WWI?


----------



## geo

Winnie was 1st Sea Lord between 1911 & 1915 and is credited with modernizing the Home fleet... good thing
Winnie is also credited supporting the Russians in the opening of a second front to the Turks. AKA the Dardanelles & Gallipoli..... bad thing

Any infantry command he might have had would have been honorary


----------



## redleafjumper

It was a battalion of the 6th Royal Scots Fusiliers - he was later honourary colonel of that regiment.  He was appointed to command it on New Years Day 1916.  He went back to the army after he resigned as First Sea Lord and by all accounts he was a good battalion commander.


----------



## hugh19

No he held a battalion command from sometime after he left the Admiralty until about Jan 1916. Cannot not remember what regiment tho. But he wore a french helmet and not a british one.


----------



## redleafjumper

There is a photo of him in a French helmet, but he was definitely the commander of the British Battalion I mentioned.  I don't have his biography in front of me to post the reference, but I suppose some googling would find it in a hurry.

Here what I found googling regimental history of the 6th Royal Scots Fusiliers and Churchill:

From: http://www.btinternet.com/~james.mckay/rsf21st.htm  Scots Royal Fusiliers Lineage

"In the war of 1914-1918 the regiment expanded to 18 battalions and was represented in every main action on the Western Front. They were also at Gallipoli, in the Palestine campaign till Jerusalem fell and at Salonika. The late Right Hon. Winston Churchill was Colonel of the 6th Battalion from December, 1915, to May, 1916. Only the 1st and 2nd battalions were regulars, the others consisted of the Special Reserve, Territorial and War Service battalions. "


----------



## geo

Sir Winston Churchill commanded the 6th Battalion of the Regiment (Territorial Army) on the Western Front for a few months in 1915 while in disgrace after Gallipoli (his second in command was Sir Archibald Sinclair later Air Minister).  Major General Hakewell Smith, later the commander of 52 (Lowland) Division in WWII was one of his subalterns.


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> It was a battalion of the 6th Royal Scots Fusiliers - he was later honourary colonel of that regiment.  He was appointed to command it on New Years Day 1916.



Correct or more correctly the 6th battalion of the Royal Scots Fusiliers (Formerly the 21st Regiment of Foot). I can well understand the confusion here as regiments in WWI raised multiple Bn of various types.
Although Winston commanded 6 RScotsF as an acting Lt. Col. what regiment was he actually commissioned in?
and What British regiment raised the most battalions in World War I?

Edit: I've got to learn how to type faster


----------



## redleafjumper

He was commissioned in the 4th Queen's Own Hussars.


----------



## cplcaldwell

AJFitzpatrick Today at 12:46:26  said:
			
		

> What British regiment raised the most battalions in World War I?



A creaky old memory makes me want to say the KOYLI at 26 (really, I read that somewhere and it stuck!).

I'll bet the RB's weren't far behind.


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> He was commissioned in the 4th Queen's Own Hussars.



This is true when he was a regular but he transferred to the territorials (not sure of exact date), what regiment did he transfer (? usage) the commission to. Perhaps I initially phrased it badly.



			
				cplcaldwell said:
			
		

> A creaky old memory makes me want to say the KOYLI at 26 (really, I read that somewhere and it stuck!).
> 
> I'll bet the RB's weren't far behind.



A good guess but not the answer I have.


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

The answer to the first question is:
The Queen's Own Oxfordshire Hussars (Captain. 4 Jan 1902).

I'll leave the 2nd question for a bit longer.


----------



## cplcaldwell

> What British regiment raised the most battalions in World War I?



Okay, I really thought it was the King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry. But I guess it wasn't. So I went through some of what I thought was the next most obvious ones. Ox & Bucks, Black Watch, London Scottish, KOSB, PWOR (Green Howards), North Riding and West Riding of York (resp.). 

And I don't have enough time to do the whole OrBat but I did come across one that seems like a reasonable guesstimate.

The Middlesex Regiment *46 Battalions raised.* Includes 4 regular TA and the remaining 42 HO, some line, some work. 

Best I can do.


----------



## xFusilier

The Royal Fusiliers


----------



## cplcaldwell

*HaHa .* Now we're getting into the sticky part!

Were did the Royal Fusilier's end and the Middlesex begin or for that matter the London Scottish, City of London, ..., Rangers, Duke of Cambridge's.....

Here's a quote


> London's volunteers for the infantry mainly entered the City of London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers) or the Middlesex
> Regiment.  A total of 45 battalions were formed under the title of the City of London Regiment during the course of the
> war, including four battalions raised from public school students (18th, 19th, 20th and 21st Battalions), three battalions
> recruited exclusively from Londoners of Jewish background (38th, 39th and 40th Battalions), and a frontiersmen battalion
> composed of African game hunters, polar explorers, sportsmen, and other adventurers (25th Battalion).
> 
> To compound the confusion between the regular Royal Fusiliers battalions and the territorial City of London Regiment
> battalions, many of these wartime battalions preferred to affect the title Royal Fusiliers rather than City of London
> Regiment.  To add further confusion to an already difficult subject, the Middlesex Regiment also had battalions which held
> the subtitle the City of London Regiment.



From this link on the History of the Royal Fusiliers


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

I have the Royal Fusiliers at 58 which includes the City of London Bns of the London "Regiment" (Nos 1 thru 4) and duplicates, battalions formed in 1919 (for service in Russia), and the 3 graduated battalions.

I have the Middlesex Regiment at 58 as well which includes 3 battalions (no. 7, 13 and 19) (and duplicates) of the London "Regiment"

With regards to the London "Regiment" I think the following statement taken from regiments.org is instructive 
" formed in T.F. without HQ or other administrative cohesion to encompass 26 existing volunteer battalions in the County of London (which had been formed in 1889 from parts of Middlesex, Kent and Surrey) since the new county lacked a single regular regiment with which to affiliate."

Other affiliations formalilized during 1916 (the London Regiment effectively ceasing to exist at this point) were the Rifle Brigade, King's Royal Rifle Corps, The Queen's Own (Royal West Kent Regiment), The East Surrey Regiment, The Royal Irish Rifles and the Gordon Highlanders.


----------



## cplcaldwell

So it's a tie or is there a Regt with more than 58 Bns?


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

I'm pretty sure it is a tie at 58, I initially thought it was the Royal Fusiliers alone but of course a little knowledge is a dangerous thing  
Now if anyone wants to trace lineages to the present I am sure  all the present day British regiments can lay claim to raising battalions into at least three figures (except the Guards of course). I'm not going to do that though.


----------



## chicka36

I'm learning some stuff here. This is a very interesting topic!


----------



## Shec

To help ascertain where the RF and London Reg't. intertwine:

http://www.1914-1918.net/royalfus.htm

http://www.1914-1918.net/london.htm


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

Another one

What is the only battle honour to be awarded for an action in the British Isles and what is its second notable aspect?


----------



## Spr.Earl

We won.


----------



## armyvern

AJFitzpatrick said:
			
		

> Another one
> 
> What is the only battle honour to be awarded for an action in the British Isles and what is its second notable aspect?





> The Pembrokeshire Yeomanry uniquely hold the Battle Honour ‘Fishguard’ the first battle honour granted to a Volunteer Unit, and the only battle honour granted for service in the British Isles when the last invasion of the mainland by the French, in 1897, took place.



http://www.elite-collections.com/Welsh%20items_2.htm

I think that both questions are addressed above in that this was the only Battle Honour to be awarded in the British Isles and that it was awarded for the first time to a Volunteer Unit.


----------



## armyvern

1918...

Which decorated British War Hero had Lance Corporal Hitler in his sights but refrained from pulling the trigger due to Hitler's being injured and unarmed?


----------



## vonGarvin

I got the answer, but I cheated by using google.  So, I'll leave it to someone else.


----------



## nowhere_man

After many hours of strenuous searching  : I found it. it was Private Henry Tandey at the battle of Marcoing where he earned the VC. 
Just makes you think what could have been. 
And By the way Von Garvin your undername... so true.

Oops forgot the source
 http://www.firstworldwar.com/features/tandey.htm


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

ArmyVern got the Battle Honour Question right.


----------



## 3rd Herd

"It would be undesirable to incur large commitments in manpower merely to provide against the possibility of American
 requests for cooperation, or of the Canadian government to put itself in the position of inviting such requests,
 which might lead to commitments beyond Canadian capacity." 

What Canadian PM said this. When and what where the circumstances?


----------



## redleafjumper

Here's a wild guess:

Sir Wilfrid Laurier regarding the war against Cuba.  1898


----------



## 3rd Herd

The WAG is wrong


----------



## warrickdll

MacKenzie-King War Against Japan?


----------



## 3rd Herd

Iterator said:
			
		

> MacKenzie-King War Against Japan?



can you be a little more specific?


----------



## warrickdll

I believe it was regarding the assault on the Japanese home islands (Japan proper). I don't know where he said it (or when exactly).


----------



## 3rd Herd

You are correct. It was addressing the US request for Canadian particpation in the antcipated invasion of the northern Japanese islands. I found it similiar to what is going on in the world today.

Next question:

The Combined Operations School was located in which town and province?


----------



## vonGarvin

Just a guess regarding "Combined Operations School": Borden Ontario?


----------



## 3rd Herd

von Garvin said:
			
		

> Just a guess regarding "Combined Operations School": Borden Ontario?



Maggie's drawers, Sir


----------



## vonGarvin

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> Maggie's drawers, Sir



Ummm....who is maggie, and what do her drawers have to do with this? ;D


(Honestly, I don't know what/who/where Maggie's Drawers means)


----------



## larry Strong

It's a saying from the "Day" I guess...it means you missed, goes back to the ranges and the big red flag or whatever was used, to indicate a miss on the target. And the "Sir" part means you might have got a promotion


----------



## vonGarvin

:rofl:

NOW I get it!

OK, someone else?

 :-[


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> You are correct. It was addressing the US request for Canadian particpation in the antcipated invasion of the northern Japanese islands. I found it similiar to what is going on in the world today.



Curious, considering the training of the Canadian 6th Division to participate in the invasion of Japan [Operation Downfall/Operarion Coronet]. I realize this was in regards to southern Islands. Was there a operation name for the invasion of the Northern Islands? Weren't the Russians about to do this?


----------



## larry Strong

Whats the current question ???


----------



## 3rd Herd

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> It's a saying from the "Day" I guess...it means you missed, goes back to the ranges and the big red flag or whatever was used, to indicate a miss on the target. And the "Sir" part means you might have got a promotion



I must be old. To think that could have been a question of the hour and Larry you are correct. As for the Sir, I guess I have been reading to much Wellington and the Peninsular wars lately.

Current question
In what town and province was the Combined Operations school


----------



## larry Strong

Dam this just made me feel real old :'(


----------



## vonGarvin

I think I found something by googling.  Is that cheating?


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

Using available resources to solve a problem. I don't see that as cheating.


----------



## 3rd Herd

AJFitzpatrick said:
			
		

> Curious, considering the training of the Canadian 6th Division to participate in the invasion of Japan [Operation Downfall/Operarion Coronet]. I realize this was in regards to southern Islands. Was there a operation name for the invasion of the Northern Islands? Weren't the Russians about to do this?



Operation names were Greenlight for the training portion but no name was given for the assualt operation as it was cancelled with the dropping of the bombs. As for the Soviets according to Stacey, "in May 1945 an approach was made to Russia, asking that country for intercession; but Russia would give no definite answer".(pg 519)

Source: Stacey, C.P., Six Years of War, Vol 1, "The Army in Canada, Britian and the Pacific", Department of National Defence, Ottawa, 1955


----------



## vonGarvin

Comox British Columbia (1943-45?)


----------



## 3rd Herd

von Garvin said:
			
		

> I think I found something by googling.  Is that cheating?



No as long as you provide the source and I hate Wiki....pedia

Comox close but no cigar


----------



## vonGarvin

I don't use "WIKI" anything for my sources.  
http://mikan3.archives.ca/pam/public_mikan/index.php?fuseaction=genitem.displayItem&lang=eng&rec_nbr=1895898&
I also saw Courtney BC.  They are so close.....

Goose Spit ?  ;D


----------



## 3rd Herd

Courtney is the winner
"......two battalion combat teams were assembled as soon as possible at Nanaimo and Courtney. The major units were concentrated by June 14. The program included harding and toughing training, weapon and tactical training, and ambhibious training comprising work with assualt craft, organization of beaches, and the loading and unloading of vechicles".(pg 499)
Source: Stacey


----------



## time expired

Heres one for those of the naval persuasion ,what was the largest warship to sail the Great Lakes
 and when did it happen?
                Regards


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

Hmm, interesting question.

By largest, I am going to assume you mean tonnage rather than personnel or length. Corvettes were built in Kingston and I assume other localities as well during WWII. Also there are at least three WWII era US subs located in US lakeside cities which I'm guessing were at least towed through the lakes.


The USS Little Rock ? (CL-92, CG-4, CLG-4) [Cleveland Class Cruiser) (was towed from Philadelphia to Buffalo via the Atlantic and St. Lawrence in 1977) 11800 tons 14131 tons full.


----------



## 211RadOp

The USS Harry B Wilson was a DDG that was built in MI and launched in '59.


----------



## redleafjumper

Was it the 1920's era aircraft carrier the Seeandbee?


----------



## geo

my money is on the Seeandbee / Wolverine sidewheeled aircraft carrier......

F'ing incredible!


----------



## redleafjumper

I found some more on the Seeandbee/Wolverine Aircraft Carrier of 1942 (I thought that it was in use in the '20s, but I have been wrong before...).  Apparently George Bush senior qualified as an Avenger pilot on her.  

This is from: http://www.voodoo.cz/ww2car/ships/usa/training.html

Training ships (2 ships)
WOLVERINE IX-64
Displacement: 7,200 tons
Complement: 270
Length: 500 ft
Beam: 98 ft
Draught: 15.6 ft
Aircraft: ?
Guns: none
Armour:
Machinery: 28 kts, Propulsion 4 coal fired boilers, compound reciprocating engines, 2 sidewheels, 8000 hp.

Side-wheel excursion steamer built, 1913 as Seeandbee at American Shipbuilding Co., Wyandotte, MI, for the Cleveland and Buffalo Transit Co; Acquired by the Navy, 12 March 1942; Converted Miscellaneous Unclassified a training aircraft carrier; Commissioned USS Wolverine (IX-64), 12 August 1942, at Buffalo, NY; Decommissioned, 7 November 1945; Struck from the Naval Register 28 November 1945; Transferred to the Maritime Commission, 26 November 1947 for disposal; Final disposition, sold for scrapping December 1947 at Cleveland, O.


The second Wolverine (IX-64)-a side-wheel excursion steamer built in 1913-was originally named Seeandbee, a euphonious name based upon her owners' company name-the Cleveland and Buffalo Transit Co. She was constructed by the American Shipbuilding Co. of Wyandotte, Mich. The Navy acquired the side-wheeler on 12 March 1942 and designated her an unclassified miscellaneous auxiliary, IX-64. Conversion to a training aircraft carrier began on 6 May 1942; and the name Wolverine, commemorating the first ship of the name, was approved on 2 August. Wolverine was commissioned at Buffalo, N.Y., on 12 August 1942, Comdr. George R. Fairlamb in command .

As the Navy's first side-wheeled aircraft carrier, Wolverine was equipped to handle plane take-offs and landings, a vital duty that she performed for the duration of World War II. She contributed to the winning war effort in World War II by training hundreds of pilots in basic carrier operations. During an inspection conducted by the admiral on 27 October 1942, she briefly flew the four-starred flag of the Commander in Chief of the United States Fleet and Chief of Naval Operations, Admiral Ernest J . King.

Her task completed and the war over in the summer of 1946, Wolverine was decommissioned on 7 November 1945 and struck from the Navy list on 28 November. The ship was transferred to the War Shipping Administration on 26 November 1947 and sold later that same year for scrapping.


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

There is also the USS Freedom LCS-1 launched Sept 23, 2006 but not yet commissioned at 2500 tons displacement.
Built at Marinette, Wisconsin
Unlike USS Wolverine which was strictly a training vessel, this vessel is to be a front line surface combatant.


----------



## Danjanou

For those curious

http://k53.pbase.com/v3/85/593485/1/50549844.USSWolverine.jpg


----------



## time expired

In 1958 the Queen visited Canada , I believe this visit had something to do with the opening of the
Seaway,she was travelling on the Royal yahgt Britannia escorted by a RN frigate and the RCN destroyers
Restigouche and Gatineau.At the same time the USN 6th. Fleet had the largest deployment of naval
warships on the Great Lakes.The flagship of this deployment was the heavy cruiser CA-132 USS
Macon a Baltimore class cruiser displacing 14000 tons,not to be confused with the illfated naval airship
also called Macon.
    I was in Windsor Ont. on that beautiful summer en route to my first posting ,to Calgary,





 I produced
my ID card and was invited aboard the Gatineau and was taken for a tour of the ship by my gracious
hosts and as this was taking place the USS Macon cruised by ,all her bunting was flying and all the
"swabbies" were line up on deck as she dipped her colours to Britannia,a truly an impressive sight.
She was the largest warship to operate on the Great Lakes.
      Wikepedia does not mention this cruise in its history of the Macon,however if anyone has Google
grab 2,1 you will find pictures of the Macon navigating the Welland canal,in which she buckled her
plates ,by the way.


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

Thanks for a great question.

Found some photos of the cruise at the U.S.S. Macon Veteran's association


----------



## redleafjumper

That was a very good question.  I really thought I had it nailed with the Seeandbee!  Is there a follow-up?


----------



## Spr.Earl

The comment I have posted is not recent,it is 107 yrs old and this is the only clue I will give.
Who wrote it?

( I mean no offence to any of the Faith only a history lesson)

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy - which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog - there is this fearful fatalistic apathy.  The effects are apparent in many countries.  Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. 

A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. 

Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it.  No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science - the science against which it had vainly struggled - the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient.


----------



## redleafjumper

As I am a bit of a Churchill fan, this one wasn't as hard as it might have been.

Sir Winston Churchill, originally published in: The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pages 248-50 London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1899


----------



## redleafjumper

In the 1980's a novel was written as a training manual to show the doctrine that would be used in battle by Canadian military forces.  Who wrote this novel and what was it called?


----------



## Spr.Earl

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> As I am a bit of a Churchill fan, this one wasn't as hard as it might have been.
> 
> Sir Winston Churchill, originally published in: The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pages 248-50 London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1899



Ghad great naked kipper's you!
I was hoping the kiddies would have had good search.


----------



## AmmoTech90

First Clash, by Keith Macksey.  I believe there was a sequel to it that was not as well publicized, but has been mentioned on this forum.

D


----------



## vonGarvin

The "sequel" was called COUNTERSTROKE, written by the same author.  Whereas FIRST CLASH used existing vehicles and equipment, COUNTERSTROKE used "fantasians" instead of "Soviets" and we had "Lion" tanks instead of Leopards.  First Clash was also released to the public as a novel (I have a copy) but I don't think COUNTERSTROKE was.


----------



## redleafjumper

Close enough.      Macksey, Kenneth.              First Clash: Canadians in World War Three

Stoddart 0-7737-060-X 1985, 1st edition. (Hardcover)


----------



## vonGarvin

As a follow up, what was its BGL number/designation.


----------



## larry Strong

B-GL-309-006/FT-001


----------



## AmmoTech90

And as a supplementary question to the follow-up, what is the novel that was released recently "in the spirit" of First Clash/Counterstroke?

D


----------



## vonGarvin

Wasn't that "The Curse of Zelda", or some other fool name?


----------



## AmmoTech90

Link, is that you?

Close, they were flogging them at CDLS(L) Army conference last year...and then I got one mailed to me...and then sent a link to an electronic copy...maybe the author will drop by and offer to sign it soon.

Anyone got the real name?


----------



## vonGarvin

Crisis in Zefra?


----------



## AmmoTech90

Yep, thats it.


----------



## 211RadOp

von Garvin said:
			
		

> Crisis in Zefra?



Good read. I recommend it to all.


----------



## RiflemanPhil

What famous war correspondent (of sorts), during a major conflict, wore a Burberry coat?


----------



## redleafjumper

Winston Churchill.


----------



## mysteriousmind

What famous war correspondent became afterward a famous Prime minister of Quebec province???


----------



## Yrys

Oh my god, I can't answer that, it's too easy!

(for once : )


----------



## RiflemanPhil

Redleaf, you are incorrect as to the person I was thinking. Hint 2: this person wore it on D-day...


----------



## geo

MM.... René!


----------



## mysteriousmind

Good job Geo

René lévesque was the good answer.


Next question, for those who listen to the news, 


38th US president died at age 93 took over after Nixon had to quit. 

who is he?


----------



## kratz

I'd have to say Gerald Ford.


----------



## mysteriousmind

It was an easy one.


note to myself...get out the military history book...and start testing people


----------



## geo

38th president of USA was Jimmy Carter 77-81. He's still living
37th president of USA was Gerald Ford 74-77
36th was Richard NIxon 69-74


----------



## Nfld Sapper

geo said:
			
		

> 38th president of USA was Jimmy Carter 77-81. He's still living
> 37th president of USA was Gerald Ford 74-77
> 36th was Richard NIxon 69-74




Well according to www.whitehouse.gov Ford is the Thirty-Eighth President 1974-1977.

Think you might have missed one GEO.


----------



## geo

Hmmm.... nope, got them

http://www.presidentsusa.net/nixon.html

http://www.presidentsusa.net/ford.html

http://www.presidentsusa.net/carter.html

However, consider that Ford was never elected to the presidency.
Agnew had been bumped the previous year and then Nixon does Watergate... Ford was selected from Congress to take the office of President.  Thus, though Ford is/was the 38th president, Carter is the 38th president ELECT


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Understood,  :cheers:


----------



## redleafjumper

Hmm.  If not Churchill in his early years, and the reporter is limited to WW2 and D-Day, then it must be the famous photographer Robert Capa.  He's the fellow who took the moment of death picture in Spain.

I believe he is known to have bought a burberry coat and a hip flask for D-Day.


----------



## 3rd Herd

What was Hitler's V-3 ? Where was it located and what was it's target.

Bonus question

What Canadian later developed this into a functional weapon?


----------



## cplcaldwell

Ha! 

Good question.

But I'll only answer part ... just for fun ... Gerald Bull.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> What was Hitler's V-3 ? Where was it located and what was it's target.
> 
> Bonus question
> 
> What Canadian later developed this into a functional weapon?




The V-3 Hochdruckpumpe (aka HDP, 'Fleissiges Lieschen'; 'Tausend Fussler') was a supergun designed by Saar Roechling during World War II. The 140 m long cannon was capable of delivering a 140 kg shell over a 165 km range. Construction began of a bunker for the cannons in September 1943 at Mimoyecques, France. The site was damaged by Allied bombing before it could be put into operation and was finally occupied by the British at the end of August 1944. Two short-length (45 m long) V-3's were built at Antwerp and Luxembourg in support of the Ardennes offensive in December 1944. These were found to be unreliable and only a few shots were fired without known effect

REF: http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/v3.htm

The first installation of five guns was to be built 165 km from London at Mimoyecques, near Calais, under Operation Wiese. The superguns were built at a fixed angle into a 30 m chalk hill, covered by a 5.2 m thick protective concrete dome. Each 140 m long cannon was capable of delivering a 150 mm / 140 kg shell on London

REF: http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/v3.htm

And for the bonus, Gerald Bull and the HARP (High Altitude Research Program) Project or better known as the super gun.

REF: http://world.std.com/~jlr/doom/bull.htm



<edited to add references>


----------



## 3rd Herd

Excellent answer Nfld Sapper but how about your source? I came across this in Typhoon Pilot  by Desmond Scott (p.74) in which he describes the attempts to negate this weapon system. The target was London and he quotes a muzzle velocity of 5,000 ft per second.

Next question

Who and where did Kissinger describe as the mad President ?


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Yeah Yeah I know I forgot to add them originally.   ushup:


----------



## geo

(MAD - mutually assured destruction)


----------



## time expired

I read somewhere long long ago that the British left this site for the French to destroy however
the French refused to demolish the site and the British conducted a form of commando raid and
destroyed the site themselves. Has anyone else heard about this or is it just another urban 
rumour?.
                                      Regards


----------



## 3rd Herd

time expired said:
			
		

> I read somewhere long long ago that the British left this site for the French to destroy however
> the French refused to demolish the site and the British conducted a form of commando raid and
> destroyed the site themselves. Has anyone else heard about this or is it just another urban
> rumour?.
> Regards



Using Nfld's source info: http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/v3.htm

"The site was damaged by Allied bombing before it could be put into operation and was finally occupied by the British at the end of August 1944."

or more fully:

French Resistance informed the Allies of the new effort almost immediately. Bombing raids to destroy the site began two months later. However the bunker proved impervious to Allied bombs, even 5400 kg Tallboy penetrator weapons. The weapons were nearing completion when, on 6 July 1944, three Tallboys happened to make it though the gun shaft openings. They penetrated 30 m to the first level of the complex and exploded, killing dozens of workers. Work on the complex stopped at this point. 

The Allies were unaware of this success and searched for new methods to destroy Mimoyecques and other German bunker sites. Under Project Aphrodite (USAAF) and Operation Anvil (USN) radio-controlled, television-guided B-17 or PB4Y (B-24) bombers crammed with ten tonnes of explosives were to be flown by a crew near to the target. The pilot and co-pilot would then bail out while an accompanying aircraft guided the missile to a precision strike. This approach was abandoned in August 1944 after a total lack of success and several crew fatalities (including Joseph P Kennedy, Jr, elder brother of the future president). 

By the end of August the Germans completely abandoned the complex in the face of the advancing British forces. Two short-length (45 m long) V-3's were built at Antwerp and Luxembourg in support of the Ardennes offensive in December 1944. These were found to be unreliable and only a few shots were fired without known effect. The British dynamited the Mimoyecques complex on 9 May 1945. 

In Typhoon Pilot the author states that while proficient at hitting small targets the did not have the necessary heavy armament to destroy the site hence the above.


----------



## 3rd Herd

geo said:
			
		

> (MAD - mutually assured destruction)



Sorry Geo,
I was thinking of President Nixon and the Paris Peace talks. The on and off again bombing campaign of North Viet Nam to get a "peace with honor" scenario accepted.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

BUMP
Can't let this die....come on history buffs.


----------



## Spr.Earl

Nfld Sapper said:
			
		

> The V-3 Hochdruckpumpe (aka HDP, 'Fleissiges Lieschen'; 'Tausend Fussler') was a supergun designed by Saar Roechling during World War II. The 140 m long cannon was capable of delivering a 140 kg shell over a 165 km range. Construction began of a bunker for the cannons in September 1943 at Mimoyecques, France. The site was damaged by Allied bombing before it could be put into operation and was finally occupied by the British at the end of August 1944. Two short-length (45 m long) V-3's were built at Antwerp and Luxembourg in support of the Ardennes offensive in December 1944. These were found to be unreliable and only a few shots were fired without known effect
> 
> REF: http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/v3.htm
> 
> The first installation of five guns was to be built 165 km from London at Mimoyecques, near Calais, under Operation Wiese. The superguns were built at a fixed angle into a 30 m chalk hill, covered by a 5.2 m thick protective concrete dome. Each 140 m long cannon was capable of delivering a 150 mm / 140 kg shell on London
> 
> REF: http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/v3.htm
> 
> And for the bonus, Gerald Bull and the HARP (High Altitude Research Program) Project or better known as the super gun.
> 
> REF: http://world.std.com/~jlr/doom/bull.htm
> 
> 
> 
> <edited to add references>



Which Canadian Unit's assaulted and took the gun's?


----------



## 3rd Herd

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> Which Canadian Unit's assaulted and took the gun's?



1st choice- North Shores
2nd choice-QOR
3rd choice- 7th Recce Regiment


----------



## geo

Hmmm North Shores.  If memory serves me right, they lost a couple of their senior people during the taking.....  or was that the other german fortifications - The Citadelle (or something like that)

whups.... Nort shores took "batterie Todt" (with 6th Armd)
Bgen Rockingham took the white surrender flag from the Batterie & sent it back to the Mayor of Dover with his compliments.


----------



## larry Strong

Well this thread had laid dormant for quite some time, do here goes:

What must rank as one of* the* best and prolific machine-gun designs ever produced.


----------



## Rhibwolf

The MG42 is regarded by many experts as the best machine gun ever. The MG42, with minor modifications, is still the primary heavy machine gun of the modern German army, now called the MG3. A number of other armies around the world have adopted versions of the original, and guns looking similar, or identical, to the MG42 remain in widespread service today. The US Army's M-60 is based upon the MG42, as are many of the minimi variants used 
As to prolific, after all these years, the Browning .50 Caliber Machine Gun is still widely used by many militaries, and the MP5 is a specialist's first choice for close in work.  I guess the answer to the question depends on your definition of prolific, and equally important, your parameter for MG (H, M, GP, Sub, etc).


----------



## larry Strong

Thanks for that, I am looking for a heavy gun, one thats more prolific than the MG42/MG3. Still in use, millions built.


----------



## stukirkpatrick

The M2 Browning .50?


----------



## larry Strong

That would be correct. First out in 1921 still in production in the US and Belgium. Should be around for decades to come with no replacement in sight.
Your turn.


----------



## larry Strong

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> That would be correct. First out in 1921, still in production in the US and Belgium (FN). Should be around for decades to come with no replacement in sight.
> Your turn.


not sure what happen here.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Rhibwolf said:
			
		

> The MG42 is regarded by many experts as the best machine gun ever. The MG42, with minor modifications, is still the primary heavy machine gun of the modern German army, now called the MG3. A number of other armies around the world have adopted versions of the original, and guns looking similar, or identical, to the MG42 remain in widespread service today. The US Army's M-60 is based upon the MG42, as are many of the minimi variants used
> *As to prolific, after all these years, the Browning .50 Caliber Machine Gun is still widely used by many militaries*, and the MP5 is a specialist's first choice for close in work.  I guess the answer to the question depends on your definition of prolific, and equally important, your parameter for MG (H, M, GP, Sub, etc).



He answered it here first.


----------



## stukirkpatrick

Whoops, totally missed that  :-[


----------



## larry Strong

Dang me too, Totally sorry about that Rhibwolf....that's what happens if you don't read the whole answer. Mea culpa


----------



## 3rd Herd

What was "Operation Killer" and what is its relevance to ongoing operations in Afghanistan. Bonus, who coined the name "Operation Killer".


----------



## old medic

Operation Killer Jan - Feb 1951

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/korea/ebb/ch16.htm

  





> Evidence available by evening of 18 February, not only from the results of the IX Corps advance but also from the lull and lack of contact in the X and ROK III Corps zones, made clear that the Chinese and North Koreans were retiring from the salient they had created in the central region. The withdrawal fit the pattern of enemy operations observed before, especially Chinese operations, in which assault forces were obliged to pause for refitting after a week or so of battle.5
> 
> During the evening of the 18th Ridgway planned an advance designed to deny the enemy any respite in which to prepare new attacks and, in particular, designed to destroy those enemy forces moving north out of the Chech'on salient. He intended that two principal thrusts by American forces, up Route 29 from Wonju beyond Hoengsong and up Route 60 from Yongwol beyond P'yongch'ang, would block the main paths of enemy withdrawal. (Map 25) Other forces were to move through and clear the adjacent ground. Given the particular purpose of the attack, he called it Operation KILLER.6
> 
> Intelligence Problems
> 
> Ironically, as Ridgway developed the concept of Operation KILLER with confidence in the spirit of his line units, he found reason still to question the attitude of principal members of his own staff. On 18 February he received the staff recommendations he had asked for in late January on the terrain lines the Eighth Army should attempt to occupy during the spring and summer months. In sum, the staff proposed that the Eighth Army abandon offensive operations, defend in place until spring, then voluntarily withdraw to the old Pusan Perimeter.



Gen. Matthew Bunker Ridgway 
http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/ridgway.htm


----------



## Rhibwolf

No worries on the oversight re 50 Cal.  Its all in sport.  A three Q below, 

--who told the King of Naples to either fight and die, or do nothing and lose his kingdom as a larger enemy force approached? 
-- what was the actual quote used? (the question above is only a summary of what he said)
--who led the approaching enemy force?


----------



## rmacqueen

Rhibwolf said:
			
		

> No worries on the oversight re 50 Cal.  Its all in sport.  A three Q below,
> 
> --who told the King of Naples to either fight and die, or do nothing and lose his kingdom as a larger enemy force approached?
> -- what was the actual quote used? (the question above is only a summary of what he said)
> --who led the approaching enemy force?


Might it be Nelson, as indicated by the quote at the bottom of your profile? ;D


----------



## Rhibwolf

Oh my god!!! What a ninny I am.  :brickwall: RMacQ, I laughed so hard when I read, your post!   :rofl: 
You just made my day, and I hope that my forgetfulness helped make some of your days too! :
yes, indeed - Nelson, to the king of Naples as Napoleon approached.


----------



## rmacqueen

Rhibwolf said:
			
		

> Oh my god!!! What a ninny I am.  :brickwall: RMacQ, I laughed so hard when I read, your post!   :rofl:
> You just made my day, and I hope that my forgetfulness helped make some of your days too! :
> yes, indeed - Nelson, to the king of Naples as Napoleon approached.


Worse part is, one of your posts came up when I was searching for the answer and it still took me about 10 mins to figure out why :


----------



## 3rd Herd

old medic said:
			
		

> Operation Killer Jan - Feb 1951
> 
> http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/korea/ebb/ch16.htm
> 
> 
> Gen. Matthew Bunker Ridgway
> http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/ridgway.htm



Not Bad Old Medic,

I was after a more Canadian perspective in that the Minister of Defence, Brooke Claxton, "especially objected to the way 'some operations in Korea have been handled or reported', including the use of heavy bombers and heavy artillery 'against defenceless villages,' dubbing the attacks with such names as Operation Killer". Further that "Mr Person also raised this matter with me...in which he was concerned about the general effect on the Canadian public if we follow the American example of emphasizing brutality in what my be close to barbarism, in these operations in Korea."(pg.84)

Bercuson David J. Blood on The Hills: The Canadian Army In The Korean War.Toronto: University of Toronto Press, 1999.


----------



## rmacqueen

Here is one for you.

What engagement is probably the only recorded case of cavalry capturing a naval fleet and what were the two countries involved?


----------



## 3rd Herd

Guessing: The Spanish American War, and countries involved Spain, United States and place: Cuba


----------



## rmacqueen

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> Guessing: The Spanish American War, and countries involved Spain, United States and place: Cuba


Nope


----------



## 3rd Herd

Second try:

French Cavalry Defeats Dutch Fleet?
By Peter Davis


Many sources refer to an extraordinary event at the end of the French advance into the "United Provinces" (the Netherlands) in the winter of 1794-5. It being a particularly severe winter, a significant part of the Dutch fleet, being icebound near the village of den Helder (at the tip of the peninsula between the North Sea and the Zuiderzee), was defeated and captured by French cavalry and horse artillery.

This is described by a number of 19th Century authors: the Frenchmen Adolphe Thiers Lacretelle, and François Auguste Marie Mignet, the Swiss Antoine Henri Jomini, and the Scot Sir Archibald Alison. There are also a number of paintings or drawings of the event, the most famous of which is probably the painting by Charles Louis Mozin (1806-1862) originally (and presumably still) in the collection in the Palace of Versailles. More recently, A.G.M. Macdonell, in Napoleon and his Marshals speaks of

"(when) the ragged men ... thundered on their horses across the ice to capture with naked swords the battlefleet of Holland".

Source: http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/battles/c_jonge.html


----------



## daftandbarmy

On a related theme:

Can anyone tell me which Canadian cavalry regiment sank three German ships in Holland in 1944?


----------



## stukirkpatrick

That would be the British Columbia Regiment...  but don't forget the equally important role of its supporting infantry regiment


----------



## rmacqueen

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> Second try:
> 
> French Cavalry Defeats Dutch Fleet?
> By Peter Davis
> 
> 
> Many sources refer to an extraordinary event at the end of the French advance into the "United Provinces" (the Netherlands) in the winter of 1794-5. It being a particularly severe winter, a significant part of the Dutch fleet, being icebound near the village of den Helder (at the tip of the peninsula between the North Sea and the Zuiderzee), was defeated and captured by French cavalry and horse artillery.
> 
> This is described by a number of 19th Century authors: the Frenchmen Adolphe Thiers Lacretelle, and François Auguste Marie Mignet, the Swiss Antoine Henri Jomini, and the Scot Sir Archibald Alison. There are also a number of paintings or drawings of the event, the most famous of which is probably the painting by Charles Louis Mozin (1806-1862) originally (and presumably still) in the collection in the Palace of Versailles. More recently, A.G.M. Macdonell, in Napoleon and his Marshals speaks of
> 
> "(when) the ragged men ... thundered on their horses across the ice to capture with naked swords the battlefleet of Holland".
> 
> Source: http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/battles/c_jonge.html


Bang on.  The engagement took place Jan 23, 1795 at Texel Roads, the strait between Den Helder and Texel Island in Holland.  I just finished reading an article questioning whether any actual battle took place since the Dutch forces had already been ordered not to resist the French forces.  It suggests that it is more likely the Dutch simply surrendered the fleet.


----------



## 3rd Herd

While battle drill originated with the British Army the was a specific Canadian officer and regiment who saw it become part of the Canadian army training program. If it were not for the regiment setting up a battle drill training area on their own it could be supposed that battle drill would still not be part of our infantry drills. Who was the officer and what was the regiment? Bonus if you can name the first training area.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Lieutenant Colonel J. Fred Scott, Calgary Highlanders, Burnt Wood

I l,ike the part where they were ordered NOT to do it by HQ but they did it anyways... bloody militia never does what it's told

http://www.calgaryhighlanders.com/history/battle.htm

During 1941, the 47th (London) Division, a training formation of the British Army, began to demonstrate its new system of training, called "Battle Drill" to officers of the Canadian Army.  Lieutenant Colonel J. Fred Scott and Captain John Campbell of the Calgary Highlanders attended a demonstration on 8 October and found their imagination fired by what they saw.
On 22 October, Captain Campbell, Lieutenant Buchanan, and Lieutenant Nixon attended a battle drill school at Chelwood Gate, and according to unit historian Roy Farran, "No more fanatical disciples of the new system could have returned to the unit."

The Calgary Highlanders immediately set up their own Battle Drill school at Burnt Wood, and on 23 October, a demonstration was made before Colonel Ralston (Minister of Defence), General McNaughton (General Officer Commanding the Canadian forces in England), Lieutenant General Crerar (the commander of I Canadian Corps), and Major General Odlum (commander of the Second Canadian Division).  The platoon that participated in the demonstration were complimented by the senior officers.

The entire battalion began to cycle through the battle drill school in two week rotations, each course culminating in a demonstration to which officers of neighbouring units came to spectate.  While Battle Drill began to spread through the Canadian Army, opposition to it from the British War Office led to the 47th Division school being closed down in November.  "Battle Drill bibles," originally printed by the 47th Division,  had to be printed "surreptitiously" in the Calgary Highlanders orderly room, in order to be distributed to other interested Canadian units.

Opposition to the new training met with opposition in the Canadian Army as well; the First Canadian Division forbade their troops from attending the Calgary Highlanders' battle drill courses, to whom NCOs from other units were routinely invited.  By the end of December 1941, the Highlanders had sold more than 50 of their "Battle Drill bibles", twenty of them in a single day after demonstrating the new training to the Second Canadian Division on 30 December.

For the Calgary Highlanders, and indeed, the entire Canadian contingent in the UK, Battle Drill was a relief from months of monotonous training.  The War Diarist of the battalion, writing on New Year's Eve, remarked that "morale is higher than at any time in the past two and a half years.  A man is proud to say "I have taken Battle Drill" because without a doubt it is a physical accomplishment, particularly to the private.  To the Junior Leader who has added Battle Drill to his training, it is both a physical and mental achievement."

In January 1942, General Crerar wrote to the battalion to say "It is evident that a very satisfactory number, both of officers and ORs in the Canadian Corps have obtained the tactical and psychological advantages which are so evident in this particular course."  On the 16th of January, demonstrations were held for representatives of many Canadian units, with another demonstration on the 30th.  The orderly room printed 250 more copies of the Battle Drill bible.


----------



## 3rd Herd

Excellent Answer , next batter up


----------



## 3rd Herd

Cost one million dollars including 30,000 for building an entire village. Filmed in black and white this movie used two Canadian infantry regiments( or portions there of) as extras. What was the movies title and theme. Bonus for the location of the village and the actual Canadian regiment involved in the theme.


----------



## geo

(2 Regiments or 2 Battalions?)


----------



## Rhibwolf

need a hint mate. the best i could find was 43rd Rifles, which appears to be an "opening of the parliament" 106 yrs ago.


----------



## 3rd Herd

Hint: Time Frame 1940-1942
Bonus hint my avtar on their first proposed operation in WW2 for the theme


----------



## Rhibwolf

This is tough. The best I can come up with is the aborted mission to Norway (Trondheim) which was supposed to be conducted by the Devil's Bde and others (A force of two battalions of the brigade (PPCLI and Edmonton Regiment) were selected for possible operations against Trondheim in Norway).  There are several movies about Devils Bde, but in colour or combined colour b&w. Im trying to narrow down, but the only b&w i can find thus far is the Heroes of Telemark, and i cant figure out who the extras were, or how many were used.  Am I close?


----------



## daftandbarmy

Commandos Strike at Dawn, 1942. Filmed in BC


----------



## 3rd Herd

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Commandos Strike at Dawn, 1942. Filmed in BC



Okay you have the movie title, date and Province. We are still missing the movie "extras" and the exact location in BC. What was the movie theme or it's basis ? I hate to flog a dead horse and my head is getting sore from banging it against the wall but I thought to some extent that if you answered, you(everyone me included) would remember to included the source for the answer. In a nutshell to some extent including sourcing is what has made this particular thread so interesting and to certain limits professional. Rant over. Back to our movie in progress.


----------



## Rhibwolf

Commandos Strike At Dawn (1942)
Saanich Inlet is a glacially overdeepened valley filled with salt water. It is, by definition, a fjord – which is why it became a location for this wartime propaganda piece starring Paul Muni, about a Norwegian fishing village that rises up against its Nazi occupiers. In this scene the Allies land on the beach at Bamberton. Apparently parts of the village constructed for the movie still stand near Hall’s boat yard at Goldstream.
http://unknownvictoria.blogspot.com/2006_03_12_unknownvictoria_archive.html

As for the theme, I stick to my last post - aborted raid on trondheim. 

regiments playing extras? given it was BC in 1942-43, I would guess.....  
Sorry out of time, got to go make KD.


----------



## 3rd Herd

Acceptable effort Rhibwolf, a definite 'A' for effort.


"During this period of anxiety Victoria became the scene of a movie, Commandos Strike at Dawn.

On July 21 a Hollywood army of actors,actresses, techicans, cameramen, script writers and others required to produce the million dollar movie arrivied here. The stars were Paul Munte(?), Morris Oberon,, with Lillian Gish and Robert Cote in supportting roles. John Farrow was the director.

The Canadian forces lent every support to the movie, even to permitting the former luxury steamer Prince Henry, then an auxiliary cruiser, to participate in the invasion scenes staged in Saanich inlet.

The Canadian Scottish  and the Royal Rifles  battalions, which had been under going commando training here, fitted into the picture, which was based in Norway and a Norwegian village costing 30,000 was constructed. The action scenes were very realistic and when the film was released it was an instant success."

Source:

Wills, Archie. "Victorians Wore Gas Masks When Japs Came Calling". Victoria, The Daily Colonist, 1959. pg 12.


----------



## 3rd Herd

This is a back assward question of the hour. It is something I am poking into and it is getting a tad difficult. So with your kind assistance folks here we go:

What type and capabilities did the Red Banner Fleet have on the Pacific coast in regards to submarines in the 1930-1945 era?


----------



## geo

Russia
Russia commenced the war with 218 Submarines, added another 54, but lost a total of 109 Boats.  Like Japan, Russian Submarines had but limited success, and in the case of the Russian Submarines their kills were in no way commensurate with the loss of 109 Boats. They sank only 160 ships, many of them small, to total  402,437 tons, and their operation was restricted to the Baltic and Black Sea areas.  

http://ahoy.tk-jk.net/macslog/TheRoleoftheSubmarineinWo.html


----------



## larry Strong

Found this, no verifiable sources.

_...Postwar records from various Western sources including the Germans show the Soviets sank 108 merchant ships with a tonnage of 254,525 tons. They also sank 28 minor warships none larger than a minesweeper. In fact, the largest warship ever sunk by a Russian submarine was the destroyer HMS Vittoria by the submarine Pantera on 8/31/19 while the Vittoria was at anchor off the Seiskär Islands in the Gulf of Finland.
For this total, the Soviets lost at least 108 (there are discrepancies in their records as to exact losses and causes) submarines in return. Also note, that included in the ships sunk are 20 Turkish merchant vessels operating in that nation's coastal waters....._


----------



## geo

Larry you missed this little bit of info.....

However, the largest loss of life accreditated to any one Submarine attack goes to a Soviet Submarine, their S13. It was on the 30th. of January 1945, that the German Wilhelm Gustloff, of 25,484 tons, was being used as a refugee transport evacuating German troops trying to escape from the Red advance. (between the 23rd. of January and the 8th. of May, 1945, liners carried over 2 million troops from the Baltic to West German ports.)

Wilhelm Gustloff had up to 9000/ 10,000 people jammed on board, this cargo included troops, wounded, nurses, and some civilians, her company at that time over four times her normal peacetime capacity. The Soviet Submarine sighted this ship, lined her up, and fired, three Torpedoes struck home, only 1,000 survived, leaving the approximate number who died some where close to 8,000 or 9,000. These awful figures equate with the loss in the sinking of Lusitana, multiplied some six or seven fold, this single action is noted for the greatest loss of life in Maritime History.


----------



## larry Strong

I would have thought that the Gustloff would have been included in the total that was shown, not saying that the figures stated are any where near accurate...don't think anyone will ever be able to come up with an accurate number of ships sunk. Still trying to find the answer to the original question.


----------



## redleafjumper

Oh oh, we've already done the Gustloff...


----------



## 3rd Herd

geo said:
			
		

> their operation was restricted to the Baltic and Black Sea areas.
> 
> http://ahoy.tk-jk.net/macslog/TheRoleoftheSubmarineinWo.html



Wrong,
I have some documentation of lend lease operations going between west coast posts, Seattle for one and the eastern USSR ports. In fact one of the lend lease subs was sunk by a Japanese submarine just off the strait of Juan De Fuca. I am quoting Bert Webber in Silent Siege and a couple of US newspapers. But having only one Book source and vague newspaper references and the newspaper articles only because a USN liaison officer was killed is not good enough for my purposes yet. I am/was fishing to see what else someone could come up with. Additionally, I have another book on Soviet naval infantry operations and submarines were used for inserting parties in Korea after the Soviet belated declaration on war on Japan.


----------



## Spr.Earl

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Oh oh, we've already done the Gustloff...



No  ;D
A few years back after the break up of the USSR there was a documentary made about Wilhelm Gustloff and finaly the west got to dive on the ship.
The finding's where that the Russians blew the hull beyond all recognition,when or why still is not known as those records are still secret.


----------



## larry Strong

I saw that show, IIRC they also did a computer simulation that crammed human bodies in every corner and the number was a lot more than what is currently accepted. I once had the opportunity to get my hands on a pair of Gustloff cap tallies but I passed on them.....


----------



## 3rd Herd

Thorwald, Jürgen. Defeat in the East: Russia Conquers, January to May 1945, Bantam Books. was originally published as Flight in Winter  by the same author has several excellent narrative accounts on this matter at hand. Also I have another book written out of the US historical section by a German admiral which again gives several excellent accounts, I will dig it out and post the title and author. I took a 4th year disaster planning course and some of our required readings covered this. Again I will dig them out and post authors.

Edit to add:
found one
Ruge, Friedrich. The Soviets As Naval Opponents, 1941-1945


----------



## 3rd Herd

A little Canadian history:

Who were Sgt Riddell and Sgt Hersey looking for ? What other famous Canadian flyer was involved in this northern 'boy's tale' ?


----------



## geo

On 31 December 1931 the man hunt for the "Mad Trapper of Rat River" began. On 16 January 1932 Sgt R.F. (Frank) Riddell and Sgt H.F. Hersey of NWT&Y Station Aklavik joined the RCMP "posse". After 48 days the incident ended on 17 February 1932 when the fugitive, presumed to be Albert Johnson, was spotted by Hersey. Hersey was seriously wounded by the fugitive before he, in turn, was shot and killed. Hersey was evacuated 160 kilometres to hospital in Aklavik by bush plane flown by "Wop" May, a famous bush pilot and World War I flying ace. In this case the Signals had helped get the Mounties man for them.

http://www.c-and-e-museum.org/chap4_e2.htm


----------



## 3rd Herd

Bang on Geo.

What was the main method of long distance communication up until 1945 by the RCAF ?


----------



## geo

Land lines?
lemme read....


----------



## Michael OLeary

Carrier Pigeons?


----------



## 3rd Herd

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Carrier Pigeons?



Right answer:
"In 1920 military aviators of the newly formed Canadian Air Force (CAF) began using pigeons for aircraft to ground communications. Pigeons served in the RCAF until May 1946." http://www.c-and-e-museum.org/chap4_e1.htm

and one of the hero's of Dieppe. "The pigeon "Broadsword" was the third pigeon released (from HMS Fernie), the first two having been hit by German fire. Broadsword's handler was a signalman who had taken the three week RCAF pigeon handlers' course specially for this operation."


----------



## 3rd Herd

What short lived policy carried out by the Canadian army was curtailled as "it was taking us to close to the monster we are trying to defeat"


----------



## geo

Oooooh.... sounds intriguing
(Ist thought would be domething to do with Psyops AKA propaganda)... 


Whups.... shackling of german prisoners at dieppe.......

Nor was the suffering over for the Canadians taken prisoner in the raid.  From papers seized from the enemy, the Germans discovered that the Canadians had been planning to shackle their prisoners to make them easier to control, which was in contravention of the laws of war.  They therefore immediately clapped shackles on their Canadian prisoners, and for some this humiliation would continue for 18 months.  Canada would do the same for a few months with its German prisoners of war.  In December 1942, however, they abandoned this practice, which was taking them much too close to the monster they were trying to defeat. 

http://www.cmhg.gc.ca/cmh/en/page_662.asp


----------



## 3rd Herd

Well done Geo, sorry no psych ops but in the myth or reality realm:

What proposed war would have these results:
"The attack on Canada calls for assaults on Ottawa and Montreal, the Welland Canal, London, Sault Ste Marie, the CPR north of Lake Superior, the CPR at Winnipeg and the Fraser River. Heavy artillery would also be set up on the St Lawrence below Montreal."


----------



## geo

Hmmmm...

The Battle of the Windmill: fought in November 1838 in the aftermath of the Upper Canada Rebellion. Loyalist forces of the Upper Canadian government defeated an invasion attempt by Patriot Hunter insurgents based in the United States.


----------



## 3rd Herd

No, a little later in history though.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Sounds like one of the hypothetical defence plans from the 1920s, more Staff College exercise than reality based threat.


----------



## armyvern

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> Well done Geo, sorry no psych ops but in the myth or reality realm:
> 
> What proposed war would have these results:
> "The attack on Canada calls for assaults on Ottawa and Montreal, the Welland Canal, London, Sault Ste Marie, the CPR north of Lake Superior, the CPR at Winnipeg and the Fraser River. Heavy artillery would also be set up on the St Lawrence below Montreal."


A proposed war with Great Britain:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/dhh/downloads/cfhq/cfhq002.PDF

edit: Mike O: Yep, Staff College stuff, that's exactly where I pulled it up!!


----------



## 3rd Herd

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Sounds like one of the hypothetical defence plans from the 1920s, more Staff College exercise than reality based threat.



You are two for two Micheal, 2nd place to Geo.

Report No.2, Historical Section, Canadian Forces Headquarters:Canadian-American Defence Relations
1867-1914, Plans for Invasion of Canada

"United States Plans for Invasion of Canada
46. A series of War College papers dealing with attacks on Canada.
(a) USNA, war Dept, GS, War Plans Div, Classified Gen Correspondence, 1900-1920,
Box 20, File 8364-5, Maj J.M. Shaw, USMC, "Military Geography of the Provinces
of Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia," n.d.
(i) This paper was prepared by a War College student of the class of 1912-1913.
(ii) The author says the US should immediately take the offensive in the West in the
event of war, destroying railway communications at Winnipeg and over the
Fraser River, followed by an occupation of the main towns."

Source: http://www.forces.gc.ca/dhh/downloads/cfhq/cfhq002.PDF

Edit to add:

"Buster Brown gained infamy after his death as the author of “Defence Scheme No. 1,” drafted in late 1920 and early 1921. This document laid out a defensive plan that called for a pre-emptive Canadian attack on the United States in the event of looming conflict. Buster Brown prepared this document in his role as Director of Military Operations and Intelligence (DMO & I) at National Defence Headquarters at the behest of his superiors, and it is arguably typical of military plans, prepared for a possible worst case, and admittedly unlikely to be used. This said, his ardent defence of its content, particularly the military personnel and materiel requirements that it entailed, has
caused him to be personally associated with it."

Source: http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/caj/documents/vol_08/iss_1/CAJ_vol8.1_16_e.pdf


----------



## armyvern

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> You are two for two Micheal, 2nd place to Geo.
> 
> Report No.2, Historical Section, Canadian Forces Headquarters:Canadian-American Defence Relations
> 1867-1914, Plans for Invasion of Canada
> 
> "United States Plans for Invasion of Canada
> 46. A series of War College papers dealing with attacks on Canada.
> (a) USNA, war Dept, GS, War Plans Div, Classified Gen Correspondence, 1900-1920,
> Box 20, File 8364-5, Maj J.M. Shaw, USMC, "Military Geography of the Provinces
> of Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia," n.d.
> (i) This paper was prepared by a War College student of the class of 1912-1913.
> (ii) The author says the US should immediately take the offensive in the West in the
> event of war, destroying railway communications at Winnipeg and over the
> Fraser River, followed by an occupation of the main towns."
> 
> Source: http://www.forces.gc.ca/dhh/downloads/cfhq/cfhq002.PDF



Interestingly enough, para 48 of the same document calls for the same thing WRT a War with Great Britain. I guess that would refer to a proposed American war with Great Britain.


----------



## 3rd Herd

What is described as the "most important assignment of the Canadian military in the inter war years" and who was it's author.


----------



## 3rd Herd

Hints:
General strike and the taking over of trains. Where did the passengers come from?


----------



## foresterab

Will have to dig more but off the top of my head I assume it deals with the Winnipeg Strike and the great depression.  Also the use of armed police to break the strike which resulted in several deaths.  The trains were taken over by unemployed Canadians with the goal of travelling to Ottawa to protest.

More to follow tonight after I get home and have time to investigate.


----------



## 3rd Herd

foresterab said:
			
		

> Will have to dig more but off the top of my head I assume it deals with the Winnipeg Strike and the great depression.  Also the use of armed police to break the strike which resulted in several deaths.  The trains were taken over by unemployed Canadians with the goal of travelling to Ottawa to protest.
> 
> More to follow tonight after I get home and have time to investigate.



You are on the right "track" so to speak.


----------



## rmacqueen

geo said:
			
		

> Nor was the suffering over for the Canadians taken prisoner in the raid.  From papers seized from the enemy, the Germans discovered that the Canadians had been planning to shackle their prisoners to make them easier to control, which was in contravention of the laws of war.  They therefore immediately clapped shackles on their Canadian prisoners, and for some this humiliation would continue for 18 months.  Canada would do the same for a few months with its German prisoners of war.  In December 1942, however, they abandoned this practice, which was taking them much too close to the monster they were trying to defeat.


I knew one of the Canadians who was captured at Dieppe and shackled in retaliation.  He had some very interesting stories about Canadian antics in the camps and the stuff they put over on the Germans including the shackling.


----------



## 3rd Herd

Unanswered so here is the answer:

"...including McNaughton's work camps  for the unemployed of the early 1930's, "perhaps one of the most important assignments carried by the Canadian military during the years between the two wars."

Source:
Eayrs James, In Defence of Canada:From the Great War to the Great Depression. Toronto: University of Toronto Press. 1964(pg.124)

Libarian,
this makes up for the line question awhile back. ;D


----------



## 3rd Herd

Okay an easy one:

Why was the Spainish Divison which fought on the Eastern Front in the employment of the Germans known as the "Blue Divison" ?


----------



## larry Strong

Flying of the cuff here...IIRC because their shirts were blue.


----------



## geo

Because the soldiers could not use official Spanish army uniforms, they adopted a symbolic uniform comprising the red berets of the Carlists, khaki trousers used in the Spanish Legion, and the blue shirts of the Falangists - hence the nickname, "Blue Division". This uniform was used only while on leave in Spain; in the field, soldiers wore the Heer field gray uniform with a shield on the upper right sleeve bearing the word "España" and the Spanish national colors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Division


----------



## 3rd Herd

You are correct Larry, but Geo included a source although it is the dreaded "wiki". I say dreaded because the blue shirts of the Falangists was worn under their wehrmacth uniforms. The blue collar was visible under the grey, hence the nickmane "Blue Division".

"Since Spain was not at war with USSR, the question arose of what uniform to use and the status of the soldiers captured under international law. Spanish uniforms could not be used even in transport, so the troops received the red berets of the Carlists, khaki trousers used in the Foregin Legion, and the blue shirts of the Falangists. Since the Falangists refused to wear the Carlists red berets, the blue shirt became the identifying symbol".

Source:

Kleinfeld,Gerald R.,Tambs,Lewis A. ' North to Russia: The Spanish Blue Division in World War II'. Military Affairs, Society for Military History 1973


----------



## larry Strong

I try not to "google', and I had the material somewhere but could not find it. 



			
				geo said:
			
		

> Because the soldiers could not use official Spanish army uniforms, they adopted a symbolic uniform comprising the red berets of the Carlists, khaki trousers used in the Spanish Legion, and the blue shirts of the Falangists - hence the nickname, "Blue Division". This uniform was used only while on leave in Spain; in the field, soldiers wore the Heer field gray uniform with a shield on the upper right sleeve bearing the word "España" and the Spanish national colors.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Division




You have the floor Sir


----------



## 3rd Herd

I figure you and a couple of the others would in fact have the information either at hand or in mind. I just hate 'wicki' and we have an excellent case in point. As for google I have been playing around with the "scholarly article" feature and it seems to narrow the amount of hits and eliminates allot of the unsubstantiated.

Back to the task at hand.

Which was the greater defeat for Germany on the Eastern Front ? The Battle of Stalingrad in 1942/43 or the collapse of Army Group Center in June 1944.


----------



## geo

Though wiki is not necessarily the best of sources, the info was readily at hand AND it was accurate -  because it was the 1st source with the info, I had no hesitation to give em top billing..........


----------



## vonGarvin

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> I figure you and a couple of the others would in fact have the information either at hand or in mind. I just hate 'wicki' and we have an excellent case in point. As for google I have been playing around with the "scholarly article" feature and it seems to narrow the amount of hits and eliminates allot of the unsubstantiated.
> 
> Back to the task at hand.
> 
> Which was the greater defeat for Germany on the Eastern Front ? The Battle of Stalingrad in 1942/43 or the collapse of Army Group Center in June 1944.


Operation BAGRATION, which commenced on 22 June 1944 (3 years to the day after BARBAROSSA) was the greatest defeat of the Wehrmacht anywhere in the war.  I don't have the figures, but the Soviets employed "MASKIROVKA" (deception) to such an extent that the Germans felt that the North was not going to be the point of attack for the Soviets: they thought that they were going to keep pressing in the south.
After URANUS, SATURN and so forth in 1943, the Soviets were over extended and suffered much greater losses than the Germans suffered (and inflicted) around STALINGRAD.  von Manstein had mounted his "back hand blow" and retook KHARKOV in the third battle named for that city.  After his "Back hand Blow", the Germans were still able to mount offensive operations, though blew it after CITADEL that summer.

(All this is from the depths of my head: I am not looking this up).  So, in terms of effects following both battles, the Germans were much better off and suffered less at STALINGRAD than they after BAGRATION, which took the Soviets to the banks of the VISTULA, and not only caused the collapse of Army Group Centre, but it's destruction as a fighting force.


There, that's my stab at it.

How'd I do?


----------



## exspy

I agree, the collapse of Army Group Centre was the greater defeat  for the German Army whether or not one measures it in number of troops lost, the effect of the loss on the morale of the troops or for the devastating pall it cast upon the home front.

Up until the end of 1942, at the height of the Battle for Stalingrad, the Germans were still winning the war.  For example, although Montgomery defeated Rommel at El Alamein in October of that year, no one on either side was under any illusion that this alone was going to tip the course of the war in the west in the allies favour.  Likewise, even after Stalingrad with its hundreds of thousands of German casualties, it was perceived that the loss occurred at the tip of the German spear deep inside Russia.  A spear which was still very sharp.  The Russian Army still had a long way to go to recover all of its lost territory and the Germany army, while battered and bruised, still had the resources to continue battling the Russians for years to come.

While in hindsight it can be seen that this period of late 1942 early 1943 (El Alamein and Stalingrad) was in fact the turning point in the war, neither side was prepared to end the fighting with so much left to fight with.

By 1944 the perception of the possibility of victory had changed for the German soldier.  The loss of Army Group Centre coupled with the collapse of Army Groups B and G in the western theatre were now a part of a pattern of inevitable destruction.  The homeland was under constant air attack, the Italians were out of the war and the allies (after Casablanca) had agreed to accept nothing less than unconditional surrender.  This ruled out any chance of Germany (with or without Hitler) making peace with the western allies alone and leaving the Russians out.

Both the eastern and western fronts were close to falling back onto the German borders, and the resources in men and materiel to continue fighting the war were all but exhausted.

So, looking at the collapse of Army Group Centre from the perspective of lost resources, the loss of troop morale and the irreversible negative effect it would have in Germany, it was the greater loss.


----------



## larry Strong

The first main offensive in a series that Stalin planned for the summer of '44 was intended to bring about the destruction of Army Group center and the liberation of Belorussia, the* last * area of the Soviet Union under German occupation. it removed nearly 30 Divisions from the German Order of Battle.

The main difference between it and Stalingrad as brought up was that after Stalingrad germany still had the manpower and resources to maintain the initiative. But after the debacle of Kursk, and the losses of the summer of '44, combined with theincreasing drain of manpower and materiel in the west meant that the end for Germany drew inexorably nearer.


----------



## 3rd Herd

Excellent answers,
I tossed this question into the thread to get away from the usual google/wicki hunt. What I was looking for was more of a justification of an answer than a quick hit a couple of keys. Yes, I tend to agree with the posted answers that the collapse of army group center was a greater defeat. Yet until recently most historians and the general public at large would firmly state the Battle of Stalingrad was more decisive. Partly, because it has received more 'press' than other battles in this area of conflict. Both Paul Adair, in Hitler's Greatest Defeat: The Collapse of Army Group Centre, June 1944 and  in Robin Cross's The Battle of Kursk: Operation Citadel 1943  point out that up until early/mid 1943 the German General staff, ie. von Manstein still had somewhat of an operational control. Hence his victory in reducing the Soviet gains. As Cross points out at this time the Soviets were flush with 'victory fever' and the reassembling of German panzer forces was not a full blown retreat but the preparation of a counter offensive. After the initial success of this operation, Hitler proclaimed himself "C of C" of the German army. The result Kharkov taken by direct assult rather than surrounded. Which in turn led to the escaping of large amounts of Soviet forces from the 'bag". This in turn led to the Battle of Kursk.

Next question:

Three faults that contributed to the massive losses of a superior armored vehicle against a lesser on the eastern front. In this you can read in T-34/76 and the German Panzer III and IV.


----------



## foresterab

Well...I only have two comments on the reasons for the disparity in losses vs. accepted quality.

The German Army using it's less suitable Panzer MkIII's and IV's was in part able to inflict a large kill/loss ratio upon Russian T-34 tanks due to it's ability to recover and repair damaged vehicles.  While German tanks were damaged often the supporting logitics train allowed for the return of these damaged units sometimes in a matter of hours...Russian tanks however were usually left to the battlefield where they lay and potentially only recovered after the Russian armies captured the ground.  Given the large numbers captured in the German advances in 1942/1943 and the larger battles of 1944 (Kursk for example) where German tanks entered the battle, were damaged, repaired, entered the battle, damaged, repaired....  


Secondly is the concept of combined arms.  The german army tended to intergrate mechanized and non-mechanized troops to a much higher degree than the Russian Army (at least during the first few years of battles).  This meant that infantry where able to contribute a much higher kill ratio on Russian Tanks than the indepent Russian armoured or infantry formations where able to achieve upon German tanks.  As the Russian Army gained the experience and numbers required to counteract the German forces this advantage was reduced but still remained an integral part of both nations tactics.  Of interest is the number of mechanized german forces that fought as infantry when lacking vehicles (often for base defense or logistic center defense) which in my opinion allowed for a better understanding of the mechanized/infantry roles.

Will have to return to the libary to find the book I'm basing many of these comments on.


----------



## geo

Pz II & IVs.... VS the T34s  
German armour were mechanical marvels.  But real monsters to maintain in the field.  
The 3s and 4s with their boxy silhouette VS the T34s sloped armour.
The germans built their AFVs to last for years VS the russians, like the americans, didn't & utilised their manufacturing capacity to overwhelm their opponents.

The Panther first saw action at Kursk on July 5, 1943. Early tanks were plagued with mechanical problems: the track and suspension often broke, and the engine was dangerously prone to overheating and bursting into flames. *Initially, more Panthers were disabled by their own failings than by enemy action. For example, the XLVIII Panzer Corps reported on July 10, 1943, that they had 38 Panthers operational and 131 awaiting repair, out of about 200 they had started with on July 5. *


----------



## vonGarvin

So, basically seeking three faults that lead to the massive losses of a superior armored vehicle against a lesser on the eastern front. In this you can read in T-34/76 and the German Panzer III and IV. 

First has been identified, I believe, in the German recovery of "knocked out" vehicles.  In many cases, the hulk just needed to be towed back, gone into with a garden hose and a garbage bag, fixed the odd component, and then crewed with fresh Teutons.  The Soviets were not so good at this, as stated.


Next, I would say, would be leadership.  The germans had radios in virtually all, if not literally all, of their tanks.  Even though the inferior 37mm and 50 mm tank guns were barely able to kill the T-34s, the Germans would be able to take that out of the equation and simply bypass them, use AT assets to deal with the tanks, whatever.  (I think that this is similar to combined arms, but is manifested by superior command/leadership)


Finally, an aspect of command, Auftragstaktik, or "Mission Command".  Using the flexibility inherent in the German command system, they were able to slip away from the Soviet Schwerpunkt and focus instead on cutting the logistical tail of the Soviet armour.  That and the ability to destroy tanks using men.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STQHH_hJlhM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bb7SixS9PAw&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQiQO2kOcwI

(Enjoy the clips)


----------



## foresterab

Found the book I was thinking of..

Anvil of War: German Leadership in Defense on the Eastern Front.
http://www.amazon.ca/Anvil-War-Generalship-Defense-Eastern/dp/1853671819/ref=sr_1_2/702-1988546-8078444?ie=UTF8&s=books

Very interesting read from the perspective of tactics when facing a larger foe.


----------



## 3rd Herd

As usual excellent answer for a debate;

I threw the question out based on Robin Cross's book. The T-34 although a superior vehicle had limitations; no internal radios until later,the crew commander fighting the tank and the battle at the same time, seating which did not rotate with the turret causing the crew to become gymnastics, and the storage of ammunition in the floor resulting in delay of fire while sections of the floor were removed to access ammunition.

Next Question:

What was the "Animal Killer". Name three animals it killed.


----------



## vonGarvin

SU-152 "Zveroboi" (animal killer).  The animals it killed?  Panthers, Tigers and Elefants?

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/articles/newgen.htm


----------



## vonGarvin

Here's a pic.


----------



## 3rd Herd

Hauptmann Scharlachrot said:
			
		

> SU-152 "Zveroboi" (animal killer).  The animals it killed?  Panthers, Tigers and Elefants?
> 
> http://www.achtungpanzer.com/articles/newgen.htm



Bang on the name and vehicles it was designed to kill.

Next question:

Where did Zhukov hide from the purges and win his spurs as a 'maneuver commander'


----------



## larry Strong

On the Siberian front

_......Concerned at a possible threat to the Trans-Siberian Railway occasioned by these expanded hostilities, the Soviet Defence Ministry dispatched to the sector its ablest commander, Lieutenant-General Georgi Zhukov, later a Marshal of the USSR and Stalin's most renowned commander in the German war. Zhukov arrived in June 1939. He arrived to find that the Kwantung Army had secured some vital high ground and quickly concluded his need for....... _ 



http://zhukov.mitsi.com/Russo.htm


----------



## 3rd Herd

You are correct Larry.

What Canadian husband and wife team gathered intellegence in Moscow in the era of Glasnost and Perestroika ?


----------



## exspy

3rd,

Do you mean gathered intelligence in Moscow or for Moscow?


----------



## 3rd Herd

exspy said:
			
		

> 3rd,
> 
> Do you mean gathered intelligence in Moscow or for Moscow?



Sorry,
Gathered in Moscow for us.


----------



## exspy

3rd,

You're original question was OK.  I thought maybe you were referring to the husband and wife 'illegals' who were deported from Canada for spying on behalf of the Russians well after the break-up of the old Soviet Union.  To my embarrassment I cannot think of who you mean.


----------



## 3rd Herd

exspy said:
			
		

> 3rd,
> 
> You're original question was OK.  I thought maybe you were referring to the husband and wife 'illegals' who were deported from Canada for spying on behalf of the Russians well after the break-up of the old Soviet Union.  To my embarrassment I cannot think of who you mean.



Recently, the wife was featured on Canada AM promoting the book her and her husband recently wrote and is now availible.


----------



## 3rd Herd

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> Recently, the wife was featured on Canada AM promoting the book her and her husband recently wrote and is now availible.



Answer:

Cowan, Janice. Spy's Wife: Moscow Memoirs of a Canadian Who Witnessed the End of the Cold War  

"Janice Cowan was trained by the Canadian government for her role in Moscow. She and her husband went to spy school in Canada to learn how to gather intelligence for her country. She put this into practice as they lived and traveled in the former Soviet Union. She was in the thick of events during the coup against Gorbachev in 1991, and the attempted coup against Yeltsin in 1993. In her account of this experience, she offers fascinating insights into spycraft in the nineties as well as lively anecdotes and stories about the role of an 'official wife'. 

Janice Cowan traveled widely, visiting many cities in Russia and learning about many of the now-independent countries. She took a job on an independent English-language Moscow newspaper which gave her the inside track on politics while Russia was emerging from the ruins of the Soviet Union.

This book is a unique story, told from a unique viewpoint, of a key period in Russian history. It offers a rare inside look into the world of contemporary Canadian diplomacy abroad."

Stan Carew CBC Mainstreet


----------



## exspy

3rd,

I just got back from Chapter's and was going to put the same answer on the thread.  I should have gone yesterday.

It seems Ms Cowan was the wife of the Canadian Military Attache in Moscow.  He is referred to as 'Sam' and identified as a CF-101 Voodoo pilot.  She claims she was recruited by the Major-General in charge of CF Military Intelligence.

What's your next question?


----------



## 3rd Herd

How did mother nature interfere with the German panzers or contribute to the lack of in the "Battle of Stalingrad"


----------



## BernDawg

Interlocking road wheels froze up in the extreme cold when they became packed with mud and snow.

My reference is me.  Something I read years ago encroaching from the dark recesses of my addled mind.

edit: Either that or I'm still right the f&*k out of 'er!


----------



## larry Strong

Sorry you are:



			
				BernDawg said:
			
		

> edit: Either that or I'm still right the f&*k out of 'er!



has to do with rodents...nudge, nudge..wink, wink.....
 ;D ;D


----------



## BernDawg

Now you went and made me look it up

 A “mysterious outbreak of tularaemia on the German-Soviet front [occurred] shortly before the Battle ofStalingrad in 1942”.

from here:
                 http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:FVIAy8qG4iwJ:www.sussex.ac.uk/Units/spru/hsp/Geissler.pdf+panzers,+rats,+stalingrad&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=ca


----------



## larry Strong

.....electrical wires....... ;D


----------



## BernDawg

Dammitt!!   :'(


----------



## 3rd Herd

BernDawg said:
			
		

> Dammitt!!   :'(



If memory serves me right Bern, for awhile you had the same problem at Work Point. The tactical solution according to NavComm still is to be found there.


----------



## BernDawg

You talking about the stray cats that no one does anything about? Or should I say did anything about cause I haven't been there in years but I seem to remember the strays living under the RQ and associated out buildings.


----------



## 3rd Herd

Panzers and other motorized vehicles to a certain extent did not play a significant role in the Battle of Stalingrad as most were awaitting the rewiring of electrical systems. The cause of the failure was mice stripping off the insulation covering the wires. In most cases a complete replacement of wiring was required as there were more than one short circut. In addition to the time and necessary parts was the depletion of a strategic minerial in short supply, copper. This continued to plague the Germany armies in the remainder of the war years on the Eastern front.

Bern:
Mice used to do the same at WP hence the number of well fed strays. It seemed every time a cull of cats was ordered the mice population would rise and shortly after it was rewiring time, especially for vehicles which had spent time sitting up at Macully.

Next question:

In the later years of WW2 German infantry weapons were susceptible to a high frequency of jamming while being fired than in earlier years. What was the sole cause ?

Larry,
of course you were right but I like teaching an old dawg new tricks ;D


----------



## foresterab

Wild guess here...

The change in german fuel production through the war from conventional oils to more synthetic fuels meant that the lubricating oils used in firearms had different properties.  With the work Germany did with coal based fuels and vegtable oils I'm guessing the "new" fuels would act differently and eventually lead to a higher jamming rate of weapon actions than was found previously.

As the Allied forces did not use petroleum sythetics to the same degree as the Axis forces this issue was avoided for them.

Anywho...my guess of the day.


----------



## 3rd Herd

foresterab said:
			
		

> Wild guess here...
> 
> The change in german fuel production through the war from conventional oils to more synthetic fuels meant that the lubricating oils used in firearms had different properties.  With the work Germany did with coal based fuels and vegtable oils I'm guessing the "new" fuels would act differently and eventually lead to a higher jamming rate of weapon actions than was found previously.
> 
> As the Allied forces did not use petroleum sythetics to the same degree as the Axis forces this issue was avoided for them.
> 
> Anywho...my guess of the day.



Nope nothing to due with synthetic fuel or lubricating oils. But a good WAG gets you an honorable mention.  Most of the problems though you mention in this area of SA were weather related. I am looking for something which was not influanced by seasonal change. ;D


----------



## niner domestic

Was it the G43 and the jamming caused by poor maintenance by less experienced, younger troops as the war progressed?


----------



## 3rd Herd

niner domestic said:
			
		

> Was it the G43 and the jamming caused by poor maintenance by less experienced, younger troops as the war progressed?



No to you too, but keep digging you may hit gold or at least brass. ;D


----------



## foresterab

Well...

My next guess about Germany thinning out the copper content of the cartridge which lead to more jams was incorrect so had to go to plan C - Google.

This is a post regarding Navel weapons but I'm assuming is the answer you're looking for:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_projectiles.htm

Basically the shortages of key metals forced Germany to change from Brass to Steel cartridges and hence different effects upon firing due to the metals.


----------



## 3rd Herd

foresterab said:
			
		

> Well...
> 
> My next guess about Germany thinning out the copper content of the cartridge which lead to more jams was incorrect so had to go to plan C - Google.
> 
> This is a post regarding Navel weapons but I'm assuming is the answer you're looking for:
> http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_projectiles.htm
> 
> Basically the shortages of key metals forced Germany to change from Brass to Steel cartridges and hence different effects upon firing due to the metals.



foresterab,
you have about 50% of the answer in steel cartridges. I will post the answer tomorrow if no one solves it today.


----------



## foresterab

Okay...attempt 4 at this one..

Given a piece of ammunition is powder, jacket, bullet, and primer and my earlier answer indicated the change in jackets from copper to steel was part of the problem here's the next guess.

Bullets historically were pure lead but this had two disadvantages...inaccurate ballistics and fouling of the barrel.  To combat part of this problem modern bullets have evolved to become a lead alloy mix (usually mixed with tin or anitimony) and a copper base (to cap the gases and improve accuracy).

My guess is that the amount of alloy was decreased or removed leading to a greater fouling of the barrels and in turn, when combined with the steel jackets of the ammunition, lead to higher rates of wweapons malfunctions.


----------



## geo

Also, German weapons had a tendency to be machined to very exact specifications.  Great piece of kit that will last a 100 years - problem being that 
1. they won't last that long
2. overly machined = more complicated
3. high specs = lots of maintenance

Today's AKs are an example of a weapon that is simple to maintain and will continue to operate - no matter how fouled up it happens to be (more or less)

Soviet army, with their PPSH 41 created a situation where the germans faced an army with tons of firepower - while most of the germans still had their KAR98.   

A few hundred PPSH41s were produced in November 1941 and another 155,000 were produced over the next five months. By spring 1942, the PPSh factories were producing roughly 3,000 units a day. The PPSh-41 was classic example of design adapted for mass production ( like the Sten). Eexcluding the barrel, its parts could be produced by a relatively unqualified workforce using simple equipment available in an auto repair garage or tin shop.  *Over 6 million of these weapons were produced by the end of the war. *


----------



## 3rd Herd

The Answer:

as foresterab indicated due to shortages in strategic minerals the Germans were forced to substitute steel cartridges for brass. In order to prevent the steel cartridges from rusting and other wise decaying a thin film of lacquer was applied to each. The majority of small arms could deal adequately with either brass or steel catridges but the melting lacquer from the heat of the gun firing was a different story. The lacquer would flow into various sub assemblies and cause the gun to jam. This ranged from the breach to the feed mechanisms. The only way to cure the problem was to wait for the gun to cool and then chip away at the hardened build up. Vetran machine gunners carried a personal 'stash' of 300 rounds of brass cartridges for when automatic fire was needed.

Source:
LeTessier, Tony. With Our backs to Berlin London, Sutton Publishing: May 1, 2001


----------



## redleafjumper

What was "Nelson's Bridge"?


----------



## niner domestic

Wasn't it a battle in the Civil war?

Near New Iberia in Lousiana, Oct 4, 1863


----------



## 3rd Herd

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> What was "Nelson's Bridge"?



Battle of Cap St Vincent, 1770. Nelson leaves the Sir John Jervis's fleet and heads off the Spanish Fleet attempting to seek safe refuge in Cadiz. Nelson attacked two ships, boarded the first ( I believe it was the San Nicholas) then continuing to lead the boarding party stormed aboard the San Jose. One of the two was a triple decker and Nelson as Flag rank was not supposed to led a mere boarding party. When reports surfaced in London this method was described as "Nelson's Bridge".

Source: the grey matter of an old dinosaur and I think one of my students did a project on it a year or two back. ;D


----------



## redleafjumper

Darn good 3rd herd.  Commodore Nelson left his ship, HMS Captain, took the San Nicolas (80 guns), and crossed her deck to board the San Josef (112 guns).  That's quite the bridge, and an unusual action as Flag officers weren't generally expected to be leading mere boarding parties.


----------



## 3rd Herd

What was known as Tarleton's Quarter ?


----------



## geo

Tarleton's quarter?...war of Independance...

There are no quarters. AKA take no prisonners
(source.... memory + / - )


----------



## foresterab

I know its referenced in the movie "the Patriot"....but that's not the whole answer.

Any american war of independence buffs got the answer?


----------



## FascistLibertarian

It Refers to brigade major Banastre Tarleton's involvment in the Waxhaw massacre where many Virginian troops were killed. It became a rallying cry for anti-British American
("Tarleton's quarter" and "no quarter") similar to remember the Alamo.


----------



## FascistLibertarian

What was the first action in ww2 by members of the Canadian Army which led to the DSO and DCM being awarded and which to soldiers recieved these medals?


----------



## 3rd Herd

FascistLibertarian said:
			
		

> It Refers to brigade major Banastre Tarleton's involvement in the Waxhaw massacre where many Virginian troops were killed. It became a rallying cry for anti-British American
> ("Tarleton's quarter" and "no quarter") similar to remember the Alamo.



If you want to play in our court please cite a source when you answer. It can be grey matter(personal knowledge) or provide the web site, text journal etc. Sometimes the source is more important than the answer. It also helps to keep this thread a cut above others.  Since you are new to the site you also might want to check out the new member information, FAQs etc. ;D

My source for question was Aspery, Robert. War in the Shadows, Vol 1. pg. 104

"Close to the North Carloina boarder, Tarleton caught up with a detachment of Virgina Infantry, who surrendered to him. British troops conducted a wholesale slaughter, shooting or stabbing 113 of the defenceless men to death and leaving another 150 bleeding to death before marching off with 53 prisoners. To Carolina backwoodsmen, the senseless act became known as 'Tarleton's Quarter'.


----------



## FascistLibertarian

Sorry I meant no disrespect 
I frist learned about Tarleton through the movie the Patriot.  I was intrested so I looked into the history behind it.  I have read some stuff on it in various places.

BANASTRE TARLETON by Janie B. Cheaney who has her www.jbcheaney.com/ website is one intresting essay which i wont post bc of copyright
jrshelby.com/kimocowp/tarlton.htm 

I also looked at Wikipedia before I posted to brush up, the revolutionary war is something I have not looked at since 1st year of university...... (such is being Canadian)

You guys do not have to answer my question if someone wants to post another 

cheers


----------



## larry Strong

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> This is a back assward question of the hour. It is something I am poking into and it is getting a tad difficult. So with your kind assistance folks here we go:
> 
> What type and capabilities did the Red Banner Fleet have on the Pacific coast in regards to submarines in the 1930-1945 era?



This is what i have come up with to date. I have no reference, however I could probably arraing tio have you correspond with the chap...he's in europe somewhere....

*.....Pacific Fleet was awarded with Red Banner order only in 1965. It was called as Sea Forces of Far East [MSDV] till 11.01.1935, and then as Pacific Fleet [TOF]. 
USSR established diplomatic relations with Japan in 1925 and obliged not to use submarines in Pacific. So when Soviet submarine fleet was established in Far East in 1932, that was done in great secret [small submarines were transported by railroad in one piece, medium submarines were transported by railroad in parts as "agricultural technique"; they assembled in the most far part of Vladivostok harbor; it was strictly prohibited for crewmembers to use any submarine insignia; some submarines were masked as small civil steamers even]. Soviet submarines patrolled waters unofficially, but Japanese knew about them and their destroyers even tried to torpedoed Soviet submarines two times [unsuccessfully]. In 1935 the period of peaceful treaty [signed after Russian-Japanese war in 1905] was expired, and Soviet submarines became official.

Before WWII Japan was considered as the enemy No. 1 for USSR, so TOF submarines participated in all-year active patrols regardless weather conditions, including under-ice navigations and 2.5 days underwater navigations [Shch-103 in 1935]. Some submarines performed 40-102 days navigations instead of usual 20 days, even self-made snorkels were used in 1930s already. TOF submarines performed defense of transports and warships, and active patrols during Soviet-Japanese conflicts in 1938-1939 [Shch-102 stopped Japanese fishing vessel in 1938 as Soviet captain noticed something strange, it was found that in reality Japanese "fishmen" laid mines]. 

When WWII began TOF had the largest amount of submarines among all other Soviet fleets - 91 submarines, and TOF submariners were much more experienced also. During the whole WWII all TOF submarines participated in active patrols and laid mines to protect Vladivostok from possible Japanese attack [Japanese didn't attack USSR in 1941, but those mines caused a lot of troubles to Soviet ships as hundreds of mines were broken by strong Pacific storms and spreaded all over the sea]. During the whole WWII Soviet submariners performed patrols and recon missions [most recon missions were made in Pacific by submarines not aircraft]. 

When Soviet-Japanese war began on 9th August 1945 - TOF had 78 submarines [1st, 2nd , 4th brigades, 2nd and 3rd separate divisions(squadrons)]. Submarine bases - Vladivostok, Sovgavan, Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky, Nakhodka, harbor Ullis and harbor Vladimir. Japanese couldn't discover all participated "M" submariners. L-17 started the attack of Japanese mine-sweeper 09.08.1945 but dived because of Japanese patrol aircraft. 12.08.1945 Shch-112 discovered Japanese transport near Maoka and fired 3 torpedos [all missed], but Japanese patrol boat dropped 12 depth charges against submarine [unsuccessfully]. 14.08.1945 Shch-127 discovered Japanese warships [1 cruiser and 4 destroyers] which came to prevet Soviet landing in Korean port Seisin [Soviet HQ planned operation against Korean ports in the manner of "fast and easy Winter war" again and again in a great hurry and disorder, so small groups of landed mariners were attacked and stopped by "unexpected" for HQ Japanese troops; Soviet mariners trenched and hold their positions bravely as always but situation became more and more hard], so 2 submarines of "S"-type were sent to attack Japanese sea forces [and 10 more prepared to the raid]. Soon it was realized that both submarines had no time to intercept Japanese warships and the possible fate of bleeding 13th brigade of mariners became completelly black. But finally HQ began to work in the right way and it was decided to send the uncoded message about massive attack of Soviet torpedo bombers and submarines against Japanese warships [coded message asked not to perform any attacks because of absence of time for them]. Japanese believed and changed the course.

19.08.1945 Japanese submarines unsuccessfully attacked L-19 and Shch-122 near Hokkaido. 
The commander of submarine brigade captain I rank A. Leonov planed and led the Soviet landing operation against South Sakhalin [Karafuto], this operations prepared much better as Leonov used recon data from his submarines mainly. Captain I rank Leonov personally led several very dangerous attacks of sailors and mariners against Japanese. Maoka port was taken and 21.08.1945 several "ShCh" submarines were moved there. 
M-1 and M-5 transported fuel to Otomari [next target in Sakhalin] because of strong storm for transport ships. 
During the important and hard operation against Kuril Islands submarines were used quite active - the whole 5th squadron of 1st brigade. Shch-105 performed long-range recon before operation, L-8 guarded transport ships with landing troops during operation. 
One more submariner - commander of 2nd squadron Tripolsky received the order to lead airborn(!) landing troops in Port Arthur, and he done this perfect. 
L-12 and L-19 [the best TOF submarine] were sent to patrol and recon area near port Rumoi as the invasion to Hokkaido was planned. L-19 was unsuccessfully attacked by Japanese submarine 19.08.1945 [10.38 am]. 18.08.1945 L-11 and L-18 took landing troops [120 marines with four 45mm guns], who had the order to perform demonstration landing far away from main landing near port Rumoi [Hokkaido], but during navigation the operation was rejected by HQ. L-11 went to Maoka under extremelly strong storm and landed troops there, L-18 returned back to base. 

23.08.1945 all submarines received the order to stop attacks against Japanese ships, all submarines returned back till 31.08. 
28 submarines participated in combat navigations in August 1945, patroling and rescueing waters in the Sea of Japan and Sea of Okhotsk. Submariners discovered enemy ships 13 times, performed 5 torpedo attacks [13 torpedoes], sank 4 Japanese ships. Two submarines [Shch-123 and L-19] were unsuccessfully attacked by Japanese submarines, and two [Shch-119 and L-12] were attacked by depth charges [unsuccessfully]. 

Missed torpedos: 
13.08.1945 [10.12 am] Shch-119 missed 3 torpedos against transport [near port Maioka, S. Sakhalin] 
22.08.1945 [05.18 am] L-12 missed 3 torpedos [port Rumoi area, Hokkaido] 
Victories [all were achieved 21-22.08.1945]: 
*21.08.1945 [04.15 pm] Shch-126 [captain-lieutenant Morozov] sank Japanese small seine-netter by artillery fire from 45mm gun [distance 7 cables, central area of Sea of Japan]. 
*22.08.1945 [10.57 am] L-13 sank Japanese steamer "Daito Maru" No. 57 by torpedo and artillry fire [Sea of Okhotsk, Hokkaido, near port Abasiri]. 
*22.08.1945 [11.42 am] L-12 [captain-lieutenant Shelgantsev] sank Japanese steamer 6 miles from Rumoi [3 torpedos missed, submarine attacked transport by artillery and Japanese answered by artillery fire also; 3 more torpedos were fired and at least one hit the steamer]. That was, most probably, transport "Taito Maru" [5950 brt], evecuating Japanese civilians from Korea. The same day L-12 met new transport, escorted by patrol ship and 6 patrol boats, which dropped depth charges and lightly damaged the submarine. L-12 dived at 40 m and stoped to attack transport. 
*22.08.1945 [10.00 pm] L-19 [captain 3rd rank Kononenko] sank Japanese cable-laying ship/transport "Tetsugo Maru" [1403 brt] south to Rumoi by artillery fire [cape Bashinotoro, Hokkaido] and met convoy the same day [probably, torpedoed also 8000 brt transport, which is not confirmed by several sources]. 

During WWII Pacific Fleet had 

1. 40 small submarines of "M"-type [series VI, VI-bis, XII]. Three of them participated in the first world's under-ice group navigation in December 1940. Four were transported from Baltic Sea Fleet to Pacific Fleet in August 1939 by railroad, four - from Black Sea Fleet in 1939-40 by railroad also. Ten were transported to Black Sea Fleet in June-August 1944 by railroad. 
M-49 was lost between 10-16.08.1941 during patrol [near Vladivostok, Posiet Bay, Sea of Japan], most probably - exploded on mine from Soviet mine field. 
M-63 was lost the same time/place [between 10-17.08.1941, Posiet Bay] and because of the same reason - Soviet mine field. 

2. 39 medium submarines of "Shch"-type [series V, V-bis, V-bis-2, X, X-bis]. One was transferred from North Fleet in autumn 1940 [navigation along the North sea route]. One was reequipped into underwater mine-layer in 1942. Three were modernized in 1940-42. 
Shch-103 "Carp" washed ashore during strong storm [Ussuriisk Bay], was heavily damaged and half-sank 04.11.1935; was raised 28.03.1936 and towed to Vladivostok, scraped. 
Shch-118 "Mullet" was heavily damaged [6 crewmembers were killed] during torpedo explosions on Shch-138 nearby [remained off Nikolaevsk-na-Amure harbor] 18.07.1942, submarine half-sank but was raised and repaired soon. 
Shch-130 sank after collision with Shch-128 31.08.1943 [America Bay] (2 crewmembers of Shch-130 couldn't be saved in damaged and flooded with fuel and water compartment by divers, they courageously died in 5 hours because of absence of air but asked before death by telephone to accept them as communists), submarine was raised in two days and repaired soon. 
Shch-138 exploded in Nikolaevsk-na-Amure harbor 18.07.1942 [four own torpedoes exploded because of possible Japanese diversion, 34 crewmembers were killed], submarine was raised immediately and sank during tow because of strong storm next day, was raised again 11.07.1943 and scraped later. 
Shch-139 sank 25.04.1945 [North Bay] because of own torpedo explosion, was raised 07.05.1945 and repaired. 

3. 6 medium submarines of "S"-type [series IX-bis]. Four were transferred to North Fleet in 1942 through Panama Canal and under very stormy conditions [Germans knew about these navigation of four Soviet submarines and tried to sink them several times during that 17000 miles navigation, but unsuccessfully (four "S" avoided near 10 torpedos), but German radio claimed the losses of Soviet submarines several times]. Those submarines achieved successes in North Fleet, but I have no time to describe this. 

4. 13 large submarines-minelayers of "L"-type [series XI, XIII]. One was transferred to North Fleet in 1942 [navigation through Panama Canal, repair in Iceland and Scotland]. 
L-16 was torpedoed [all crewmembers were lost] by Japanese submarine I-25 as possible US submarine [800 miles north-west from San Francisco] 11.10.1942 during its transfer with L-15 to North Fleet through Panama Canal. Artillerymen of L-15 fired five 45mm shells against visible enemy periscope and received a message from exploded L-16 "we are dying because.....". Another version [also very possible] - that L-16 was torpedoed by 2 torpedos [3rd torpedo missed] from US submarine S-31 by mistake. 
L-19 exploded on Japanese mine 23.08.1945 [La Perouse Strait, on the way to Otomari, last radio message from board: "Began to overcome mine field..."] - the last submarine, lost during WWII. 

Laurence - a dozen of beer bottles from you as I am very tired to find, translate and post the info according to your request from 22.00 till 04.00..................  Only 2.5 hours for sleep this night.......What I could find concerning the subject....... 

Regards, BP.... * 

Hope this helps some.


----------



## harry8422

my short attention span does not allow me to read all that ........want to go ride bikes


----------



## 3rd Herd

Larry
thanks very much, I owe you big time.


----------



## exspy

Mr 3rd,

May we have the next question please?


----------



## 3rd Herd

exspy said:
			
		

> Mr 3rd,
> 
> May we have the next question please?



I believe FascistLibertarian had the last unanswered question. 

"What was the first action in ww2 by members of the Canadian Army which led to the DSO and DCM being awarded and which to soldiers recieved these medals?"

As this is out of my normal lane I have so far found the first MC.

Here is the MC

There have been some cases of decorations being won by Canadian officers
serving with British forces. One case which has come to notice is that of
Capt. (now Major) R.J. Williams, formerly of R. Regt. C., and now of the
R.C.A.S.C., who won the Military Cross during the operations in Norway in 1940
while serving with the R.A.S.C. (Preliminary Narrative, the History of the
Canadian Military Forces Overseas, 1939-40, Chap IV, and of, Overseas Routine
Order 353, dated 7 Oct 40). This appears to have been the first M.C. won by a
Canadian officer in this war, although the recipient was not at the time in
the Dominion's service.

Source:http://www.mdn.ca/dhh/downloads/cmhq/cmhq112.pdf


----------



## FascistLibertarian

Here is a hint/clarification 
The action occured _after _ the fall of france but _before _ Dieppe however the DCM and DSO were not awarded until AFTER the end of ww2.

As a sidenote no Canadian Army personel in France got the DSO or the DCM but the 1st MM went to Sapper F.P. Hutchinson, 1st Field Company RCE, he was left behind in France and made his way back to England.
Stacey Six Years of War Vol I pp 284

oh and I dont think the answer is in stacey..... (it might be but its not where I got my information from)


----------



## 3rd Herd

Is this the DCM ?:

"then Sergeant R.J. (Ron) Routledge, DCM captured at Hong Kong, who was awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal for his role as liaison between senior allied officers and allied agents who were organizing mass escapes of prisoners of war in the Chungking, China region.  Apprehended by the Japanese, he refused to divulge the names of colleagues despite severe torture, starvation and beatings"
http://www.commelec.forces.gc.ca/organization/history/branch/chap5_e.asp

OR

STANDISH, Colin Alden, Company Quartermaster-Sergeant, DCM (E.29812)
Royal Rifles of Canada

HONG KONG AWARD

Canada Gazette dated 6 April 1946 (No. 14, Vol. 80, p. 2066) and CARO/6522 dated 18 April 1946.

Company Quartermaster-Sergeant Standish was Company Quartermaster-Sergeant of "C" Company, Royal Rifles of Canada at Hong Kong in December 1941. 

During the night of 18/19 December at Lye Mun Gap he showed conspicuous bravery in maintaining a constant supply of ammunition to the forward positions of this company which were heavily engaged with the enemy, During the course of his duties he came under extremely heavy mortar and rifle fire. His vehicle received a direct hit during the course 0/the action, but despite this, he made necessary repairs under fire to maintain his supply. In an endeavour to cut the supply line, the enemy had infiltrated behind our lines, submitting supply personnel to heavy and constant sniping fire. This did not stop Standish from travelling back and forth over this dangerous ground to keep forward positions supplied. During intervals of unloading vehicles in the forward area, Standish took an active part in the action. His conduct was an inspiration to all ranks, and due to his gallantry and efforts it was possible to hold this position until the order arrived to withdraw. 

This non-commissioned officer never relaxed in his duty, and was conspicuous in his bravery during the entire campaign in securing and delivering food, water and other supplies to the outposts under fire and against heavy odds. At times when transport was not available he carried rations on his back, taking time off to hunt snipers who were a constant threat to all personnel. During the whole period as a prisoner of war he carried on with the same spirit of self-sacrifice, and although quite ill, he always saw that his men received all that was available to reduce the misery of Japanese camp life. (http://www.hkvca.ca/historical/Honours/dcm/standish.htm)



DSO:

BISHOP, Wells Arnold, Major, DSO ED
Royal Rifles of Canada

Canada Gazette dated 6 April 1946 (No. 14, Vol. 80, p. 2066) and CARO/6522 dated 18 April 1946.

Major Major Bishop commanded "C" Company, the Royal Rifles of Canada at Hong Kong in December 1941. 

At about 1930 hours, 18 December, the Japanese landed at Sau Ki Wan, Hong Kong, where positions were held by the 5/7 Rajput Regiment on the left flank of "C" Company positions in Lye Mun Gap. The enemy quickly infiltrated through this line and attempted in considerable force to penetrate through Lye Mun Gap towards Brigade and Battalion Headquarters at Tai Tam Gap. 

Major Bishop, with great skill, so maneuvered his force that, although heavily outnumbered and forced to retire slowly, he was able to prevent the enemy penetrating into Tai Tam Gap and saved the situation from turning into a complete disaster. 

During this action Major Bishop personally covered the retirement of his force, and his courage, skill and devotion to duty so inspired his men that they were able to cope with enormously superior forces until reinforcements became available to assist him. During the entire period of battle this officer continued to display conspicuous qualities of bravery and leadership and to inspire not only his own men but all ranks in the East Brigade sector and contributed greatly to the maintenance of the high morale necessary to sustain a continuous defence against increasingly overwhelming odds in an obviously hopeless situation. 

During captivity Major Bishop continued to display outstanding qualities of unselfishness, resolution and fortitude. He participated in all activities essential to the maintenance of health and morale, and contributed in a conspicuous manner in every way. This officer acted continuously in such a manner as to uphold the highest traditions of the service.(http://www.hkvca.ca/historical/Honours/bishop.htm)

or

HODKINSON, Ernest, Major, DSO
The Winnipeg Grenadiers

Canada Gazette dated 6 April 1946 (No. 14, Vol. 80, p. 2066) and CARO/6522 dated 18 April 1946.

Major Hodkinson commanded Headquarters Company, the Winnipeg Grenadiers at Hong Kong in December 1941. 

On 19 December his commanding officer ordered him to take a composite company consisting of three platoons to relieve "D" Company at Wong Nei Chong, clear the area of enemy and attack Wong Nei Chong police station, a Japanese strong point. 

After overcoming enemy resistance, Major Hodkinson succeeded in reaching "D" Company Headquarters, and after reorganizing the company, proceeded with a patrol through the Japanese lines on a reconnaissance of the police station. Enroute, Major Hodkinson and his patrol successfully annihilated a Japanese section controlling a road block and removed it. Returning, he prepared his plan of attack on the police station which provided for a frontal assault in which he was to take part with a small patrol. This was to precede a major flanking attack by the remainder of the company. This plan was then put into effect, but was defeated by a superior enemy force estimated at one battalion. While unsuccessful in dislodging the enemy from the police station, Major Hodkinson and his patrol were successful in drawing the enemy 's attention which permitted the remainder of his company to advance to its limit line. During this assault, Major Hodkinson was seriously wounded and all the members of his patrol were casualties. By this daring and well planned attack Major Hodkinson succeeded in a portion of his task by moving his company into a useful vantage point, inflicting many casualties and demoralized the enemy. Only greatly superior numbers prevented this attack being a complete success. 
(http://www.hkvca.ca/historical/Honours/hodkinson.htm)

Note: There were two more DCMs awarded to Canadians who fought in Hong Kong but their awards were based on actions after capture in 1944.


----------



## FascistLibertarian

Yeah Standish was the DCM and Bishop was the DSO
the actionw as at Lye Mun (sp?) in the North East section of Hong Kong Island

Here is the text of a plaque Canada put up recently in Hong Kong
“This plaque is dedicated to all members of the Royal Rifles of Canada. Near this site, on the night of December 18, 1941, invading Japanese forces were engaged by "C" Company, Royal Rifles of Canada, commanded by Major Wells Bishop. Fierce attacks had earlier silenced the artillery batteries and anti-aircraft guns. Counterattacks ensued, and after inflicting heavy casualties on the numerically superior invading force, the Canadians were forced to retire rather than allow themselves to become encircled. Major Bishop was awarded the Distinguished Service Order for his bravery in this action.” 

Before their engagement the company had 5 Of and 172 OR's
the next day they had 4 Of and 63 OR's at roll 
(C Company Diary Dec 19/41)
I have no idea about how many of the others were killed/wounded/captured

Bishop was a ww1 vet and probably the reason his company did not fall apart.


----------



## FascistLibertarian

Oh and my source is the Hong Kong Veterans Commerative Association website.  The information can also be found at the end of Carl Vincent's book No Reason Why and the Honours and Awards file on Hong Kong.


----------



## 3rd Herd

Bishop was cited for actions on the 18th of Dec. But also during that 24 hours  in addition to the Standish award you all so had:

Derek Everard Rix, Corporal 
Corporal Rix was in command of a section of the Winnipeg Grenadiers at Hong Kong in December 1941. 

At dawn of 19 December when the Japanese attacked the Wong Nei Chong area, Corporal Rix and his section were cut off from their platoon. They worked their way from their open position on the hillside above the Blue Pool Valley to Join a section of the Hong Kong Volunteer Defence Corps who were holding pill box No. 2 on the slope of Jardine's Lookout and cooperated in the defence of the pill box during the remainder of the morning. At about noon a patrol of Japanese succeeded in reaching pill box No. 1 (about fifty yards further up the steep hillside) and heavily engaged the crew, who were soon in a very difficult situation. 

After an unsuccessful relief attack by some of the crew of pill box No. 2, Corporal Rix with a mixed party of Winnipeg Grenadiers and Hong Kong Volunteers made another attempt. They were under fire from across the valley and had to climb a steep hillside in the face of the enemy, but succeeded in wiping out the surviving Japanese around pill box No. 1, thereby regaining control of both pill boxes for some hours longer. As pill box No. I was no longer in use due to the machine guns being damaged, and the loopholes being under continuous close range rifle fire, Corporal Rix took up a very precarious position close to pill box No. 1 until he was wounded in the right hand when he returned to pill box No. 2 for treatment. Later when enemy pressure increased and there was no sign of relief, the Hong Kong Volunteer Defence Corps officer in command gave leave to walking wounded to retire, but Corporal Rix preferred to stay and see the action through to a finish. 

Corporal Rix proved himself an able and courageous noncommissioned officer and his conduct throughout was a credit to his unit and the Canadian army. (http://www.hkvca.ca/historical/Honours/dcm/rix.htm)


----------



## FascistLibertarian

That is a valid point I had not considered.  It still seems to me that Standish probably did it first by the few hours because "C" Company was the first to be hit (at night on the 18th) as they were very close to where the Japanese landed. According to "C" Company War Diary the order to retreat came at 0130 hours on the 19th and by 0245 platoons were moving back (pp 36, this is under the section for the 18th) and by the morning of Dec 19th they were at a new position (pp38).
Wong Nei Chong was the scene of fighting at dawn of the 19th.  So it could be Rix but my money is on Standish as he most likely would have done his work before dawn.

Also during the retreat it was noticed that two wounded soldiers had been left behind so Bishop and another Lt went back for them! (talk about leading by example!)
One of those was Sgt Bob Clayton who is one of the few HK vets still alive and keeps busy giving speechs to students and the like. 
I have been lucky enough to talk to this man.


----------



## 3rd Herd

Okay new question,

What Canadian armoured regiment almost got any infantry cap badge and permission to go "ala Montgomery". Their cap badge today has the date of this occurrence embossed on it.


----------



## larry Strong

Not  an answer or a quizz question. Found this surfing and I would like to confirm or deny it:

*"During WWI a member of the PPCLI was awarded the German Iron Cross Second Class. As a Prisoner of War the PPCLI soldier saved a young German girl from drowning."*


----------



## redleafjumper

Larry, 
I will look into that Iron Cross matter through some German sources and see if I can find out any information.  Perhaps there is a Patricia historian floating about that could check into the regimental history from that direction.

I haven't been able to locate the armoured unit referred to in the question from 3rd Herd, but I will continue to have a look.
I take it this is a reserve armoured unit?

tchuss,


----------



## geo

Oik.... plenty of infantry units converted to armoured & / or armoured recce for WW2
CGG, GGFG and the RMR being but a few but, armoured tagged as infantry?... hmmm


----------



## Danjanou

I’m going with the PLDG (Princess Louise Dragoon Guards) They were the armoured recce regiment of 1st Canadian Infantry Division until after the Liri Valley/Hitler Line campaign.

When it was decided that 5th Canadian Armoured Division needed more infantry the 12th Infantry Brigade was stood up in July 1944. It consisted of the Westminster Regiment, 5CAD’s motor battalion, the 1st LAA regiment later rebadged to the Lanark and Renfrew Scottish and the PLDG who were reluctantly rerolled into Infantry. They did retain their unique organization referring to their rifle companies as squadrons and platoons as troops.

The RCD the 1st Corp armoured car regiment, were attached to 1CID to replace the PLDG.

http://www.rcaca.org/includes/r-4PLDG.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4th_Princess_Louise_Dragoon_Guards


----------



## 3rd Herd

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> ection.
> 
> I haven't been able to locate the armoured unit referred to in the question from 3rd Herd, but I will continue to have a look.
> I take it this is a reserve armoured unit?
> 
> tchuss,



Sorry Danjanou wrong part of the world ;D

Redleafjumper: you seem to be on the right trail.


----------



## 3rd Herd

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> Not  an answer or a quizz question. Found this surfing and I would like to confirm or deny it:
> 
> *"During WWI a member of the PPCLI was awarded the German Iron Cross Second Class. As a Prisoner of War the PPCLI soldier saved a young German girl from drowning."*



Larry,
I have passed this on to a couple of the "keepers" of PPCLI history. I hope to have answer later today or tomorrow. If possible it will come with some source information.


----------



## Rhibwolf

Ive been looking around for the Iron Cross question too, but to no avail. I did find this tidbit, however.  
Forgive its lack of historical credibility, but it does have _hysterical_ merit.  
It concerns Grandpa Simpson of the Simpsons TV Show :  
While recalling a series of fatal mistakes he made as a WWII mine detector, he [sadly] explains "and that's how I earned my Iron Cross." 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Cross


----------



## Danjanou

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> Sorry Danjanou wrong part of the world ;D
> 
> Redleafjumper: you seem to be on the right trail.



Ok this one did take a bit more effort. Nothing about the second cap badge but considering the lineage I could see the rationale behind it.

The 16th/22nd Saskatchewan Horse were  converted to Infantry May 1, 1941 and designated The Battleford Light Infantry (16th/22nd Saskatchewan Horse)

http://www.regiments.org/regiments/na-canada/volmil/sk-cav/936-16-22.htm

http://www.saskd.ca/famtree.htm

http://home.adelphia.net/~dryan67/orders/casf40.html

http://www.lightinfantry.org.uk/regiments/li/li_canadian.htm

http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/mediawiki-1.5.5/index.php?title=Armoured_Regiments_1940-1963


----------



## 3rd Herd

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Ok this one did take a bit more effort. Nothing about the second cap badge but considering the lineage I could see the rationale behind it.



Strike Two


----------



## FascistLibertarian

Im going to go with
Fort Gary Horse?

http://www.fortgarryhorse.ca/phpweb/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=51&MMN_position=61:61

"1944-1945 The Netherlands and Germany
Eager to get on with the job, the Garrys advanced into the Siegfried Line toward the Goch-Calcar road, being the first Canadian armoured regiment to enter Germany on 17 February 1945. Later, "A" and "B" Squadrons supported the 9th Brigade clearing Udem, while "C" Squadron supported the Infantry attack into the Hochwald. On 29 March the Regiment crossed the Rhine near Rees and pushed on in the pursuit of the enemy through the Netherlands.

The towns of Gendrigen, Terborg, Doetinchem, the Twente Canal, Laren and Holten were taken in quick order between 29 March and 8 April. While the Squadrons were engaged in battle for the town of Groningen, Regimental Headquarters and A Echelon took on the enemy held town of Haren. The odd group of cooks, clerks, drivers and mechanics captured two antitank guns and 34 prisoners. When the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders arrived to take the town, they found the "Fort Garry Infantry" already in charge."


----------



## 3rd Herd

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> Not  an answer or a quizz question. Found this surfing and I would like to confirm or deny it:
> 
> *"During WWI a member of the PPCLI was awarded the German Iron Cross Second Class. As a Prisoner of War the PPCLI soldier saved a young German girl from drowning."*



Larry:

see number 19 in this site: http://ppcli.com/files/afa_ppcli.pdf

Is this what you were looking for ?


----------



## 3rd Herd

FascistLibertarian said:
			
		

> Im going to go with
> Fort Gary Horse?
> 
> http://www.fortgarryhorse.ca/phpweb/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=51&MMN_position=61:61
> 
> "1944-1945 The Netherlands and Germany
> Eager to get on with the job, the Garrys advanced into the Siegfried Line toward the Goch-Calcar road, being the first Canadian armoured regiment to enter Germany on 17 February 1945. Later, "A" and "B" Squadrons supported the 9th Brigade clearing Udem, while "C" Squadron supported the Infantry attack into the Hochwald. On 29 March the Regiment crossed the Rhine near Rees and pushed on in the pursuit of the enemy through the Netherlands.
> 
> The towns of Gendrigen, Terborg, Doetinchem, the Twente Canal, Laren and Holten were taken in quick order between 29 March and 8 April. While the Squadrons were engaged in battle for the town of Groningen, Regimental Headquarters and A Echelon took on the enemy held town of Haren. The odd group of cooks, clerks, drivers and mechanics captured two antitank guns and 34 prisoners. When the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders arrived to take the town, they found the "Fort Garry Infantry" already in charge."



No to you too F-L but I figured given your earlier question you would have got the answer right off the bat. ;D


----------



## FascistLibertarian

Thanks for the vote of confidence, social psyc studies have shown that people who ask the questions are usually seen as more intellegent than the people who answer EVEN if they are picked at random.  Its way more fun to pick questions that you know the answer to and show off all your obscure knowledge!
My knowledge of Canadian Armour is very weak  
although I have straddled a Tiger and a Sherman 17 pounder (Firefly?) now all I want need is T-34. I have also been to the spot that tanks were first used in the Great War.
And I have all sorts of useless knowledge about the Churchill tanks at Dieppe
I got stones from the main beach @ Dieppe sitting upstairs


----------



## 3rd Herd

Do not give yourself credit just yet ;D. By earlier question I ment the one you asked vis via HK. And the hunt continues. I will post the answer tomorrow if no one has figured it out by then.


----------



## redleafjumper

I could find no record of a Patricia being awarded an Iron Cross second class (EKII) in WW1 for saving a German woman from drowning.  

As for the armoured unit was it it the British Columbia Regiment (DCO) formerly Duke of Connaught's Own Rifles?


----------



## larry Strong

Looks like it was the Bavarian medal of Military Merit 3rd class. I am trying to find more info from some Imperial German experts.


----------



## 3rd Herd

The cap badge answer:

"Official amalgamation between the Royal Rifles of Canada and the 7/XI Hussars never occurred. However, after the war, the 7/XI Hussars received the distinction of having the cap badge of the Royal Rifles of Canada with the year "1941" emblazoned on its Guidon as a reminder of the men of the regiment who had given their all for Canada."
(http://www.army.dnd.ca/SHERBROOKE_HUSSARS/history_e.htm )


----------



## FascistLibertarian

Okay now I see why you thought I should have gotten that question. 
That does make alot of sense.


----------



## geo

> The Regiment has the added distinction of being one of the only, if not the only, unit *to perpetuate fighting units * from both theaters of battle during the Second World War: the European Theater (through the Sherbrooke Fusilier Regiment) and the Pacific Theater (through the Royal Rifles of Canada).
> 
> THE SECOND WORLD WAR
> Immediately on the outbreak of war, the units of the Eastern Townships were mobilized as the No. 1 General Base Depot C.A.S.F. They embarked for England where they were disbanded as reinforcements on July 6, 1940. The 117th Eastern Townships Battalion Association, along with members of the Sherbrooke Regiment including its Commanding Officer, Lt-Col W.M. McA'Nulty, pressured the Canadian Government for the formation of an Eastern Townships unit for overseas duties. *These pressures finally paid off when, as an effort to create an anglophone unit within Militia District No 5 and to create an Eastern Townships unit, both the Sherbrooke Fusiliers Regiment and the Royal Rifles of Canada were formed.*
> *Honourary Distinction*
> 
> Hong Kong 1941


There is quite a distance between Quebec City - where the Royal Rifles were raised and existed AND Sherbrooke where the Sherbrooke Regiment and the Fusiliers de Sherbrooke existed.

I think it is a matter that a large number of members of the Sherbrooke Regiment were sent up to Quebec City to fill in the holes in the Royals ranks - prior to shipping out to HK....


----------



## FascistLibertarian

Well both regiments took alot of people from the Eastern Townships. They had alot of English speakers (which would be pretty rare in Quebec city) and English was the first language of the Regiment. 
I think it was one of those things where two regiments were allowed to take people from the same area and it was realised to late that there would only be enough people for one regiment so they brought them togeather.
They specifically talk about this is as book,  "The royal rifles of Canada in Hong Kong". It was published by the veterans and goes into detail about how the Rifles were formed etc.
I think the Lt Col of the /XI Hussars (Price?) became a major just so he could serve in the unit.
The RRofC were very well served by having many officers with ww1 experince.

So whats the new ?


----------



## geo

Fl... in the 1930s and 40s, there were, lots of english speaking canadians living in the Quebec city area.  Mostly Irish.  Sillery is currently their last outpost but, thru to the late 60s, anglos were a force to be ceckoned in Quebec city.

Royal Rifles is not a regiment that was raised in Quebec City esp for WW2.  Both the Voltigeurs & the Royal Rifles lived side by side in Quebec... representing the two halves of the two solitudes 

In order to fill the ranks of the Bn in short order for the mission to HK, they reached as far down as Sherbrooke to raise the Bn.


----------



## FascistLibertarian

Both The WG and the RRofC had their 1st reinforcements added before they left as it was considered unlikely they could be reinforced at a later date. The consequence for the RRofC was that each Company had an extra platoon (I think the WG's did the same thing but I do not know). In most cases these soldiers were taken from the training centres and not from pre-existing units, some even came from Ontario I think.
The RRofC existed before but had to be brought up to strength.
I am almost certain the RRofC and 7/XI Hussars joined well before they shipped out to HK.  I think they joined before the RR's were sent to Newfoundland for guard duty.

And geo thanks for the info about Quebec City, I was not aware that they had a large english speaking population.  My parents left during the quiet revolution.  I do know that alot of people from the RRofC were from the Eastern Townships but I have no idea of the %'s.


----------



## FascistLibertarian

Alright here is what I have been able to find out

From Brerenton Greehous "C" Force to Hong Kong a Canadian Catastrophe 1941-1945
pp22
35-40% of the Rifles were French Canadians
The working language of the battalion was english
In the summer of 1940 the amalgation took place to bring the Rifles up to strength.
pp27
Canada got the request for 2 battalions on October 11th 1941
pp28
The RRofC started to Hong Kong on Oct. 23rd 1941.

From Carl Vincent's No Reason Why.
pp50-51
RR's mobolized in Quebec City then moved to Valcartier in Sept of 1940 (he says 1941 on pp 50 then 1940 on pp51, 1941 but is almost certainly an error as they would be doing guard duty by this point).
The amalgation took place in June (i would assume 1940 but he does not give a date)
He gives the figure of 25% French Canadians.


----------



## larry Strong

*475801 Pte H.A. Cochran was awarded the Barvarian Cross of Military Merit, 3rd class.  The Citation reads:  

    "To the English Prisoner of War, Cochran Harry Adolf, from Prisoner Camp Bayreuth:  We express herewith for the rescue done with courage,and resoluteness of the 3 year old child named Gugel, saving her from drowning in the Birnbaum Pond in Feilsbrom, District of Auch Gusbach, the acknowledgement of the War Office."
    Munich, 20th of June 1918
    M. Henningrath
    General Of the Cavalry
    Minister of War

Pte Cochran was released from POW camp shortly after the armistice but died 28 Dec 1918 in a military hospital in France, caused by injuries sustained during the Battle Of Sanctuary Wood.

It is believed that he is the only Allied soldier to be decorated by the enemy.

Attached is a picture of his medals, currently on display at the PPCLI Museum.



Sgt Graham, BA
PPCLI Archives
The Military Museums
4520 Crowchild Trail SW 
Calgary AB
T2T 5J4
403 974-2867
e-mail: archives@ppcli.com*


----------



## 3rd Herd

New Question:

The "Mad IVth" refers to ?


----------



## old medic

4th Battalion, 1st Brigade, 1st Division ?

http://cefresearch.com/matrix/Army%20Corps/Divisions/1st%20Division/1st%20Infantry%20Brigade/4th%20Battalion.htm


----------



## 3rd Herd

old medic said:
			
		

> 4th Battalion, 1st Brigade, 1st Division ?
> 
> http://cefresearch.com/matrix/Army%20Corps/Divisions/1st%20Division/1st%20Infantry%20Brigade/4th%20Battalion.htm



Bang on Old Medic


----------



## time expired

Something for the old jumpers out there
          Where is DZ Gorvad and why was it so named?.
                              Regards


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Might it be at CFB Borden? and named after Lieutenant Colonel Gorvad .

Source: http://www.12thcav.us/stories_212_History%20of%20DZ%20Gorvad.htm

I'll admit that I used google to get the answer.


----------



## time expired

Newfi Sapper,right on I must admit I cheated a bit on this one I knew it was Borden as I just found my"jump book" but I was not sure of the significance of the name Gorvad.After seeing the name
and rank in print it came back to me,I believe Lt. Col. Gorvad was a US Army(Marine)exchange officer
with the Airborne Regt.who was later killed in Vietnam.Thanks for jogging my memory.
                                              Regards


----------



## Nfld Sapper

No problem. BTW he was with the US Army.

Ok my question.

What memorial was designed by Canadian sculptor and architect Walter Seymour Allward. He once told friends the form of the design came to him in a dream.

(might be an easy one)


----------



## geo

Gawd... 

VIMY!


----------



## Nfld Sapper

geo said:
			
		

> Gawd...
> 
> VIMY!




Batter up, Geo.   ;D


----------



## geo

Hmmm.... 
How about... which regiment had it's 1st two stands of colours presented in on conquered soil?


----------



## FascistLibertarian

I am going to guess it was during or directly after the Boer War?


----------



## Rhibwolf

In November 1918, after the Armistice, the Regiment marched 82 kilometres to cross the Rhine at the head of the 1st Canadian Division. At Unter Eschbach, Germany, on January 4th, 1919, the first King’s Colour and Regimental Colour were presented to the 14th Battalion (Royal Montreal Regiment) C.E.F.. The RMR was the first regiment of the British Empire to be awarded its Colours on conquered soil after a successful campaign
http://www.royalmontrealregiment.com/ww1.php


----------



## geo

Rhibwolf.... Verry good!
you've Identified a unit that got it's 1st stand of colours .... 
I'm looking for that 2nd stand to complete the question


----------



## redleafjumper

I'll  try a WAG and go with the PPCLI.

Cheers,


----------



## FascistLibertarian

No idea 
If I had to guess I would say the
1st Canadian Parachute Battalion
but they probably had their colours earlier


----------



## geo

Hmmm.... okay....
t'was a bit of a trick question
1st set presented in 1918 
2nd set presented in 1945 - at the end of a second successful campaign.

- can't be the Paras, no one was jumping out of aircraft during WW1 if they had a choice.


----------



## Rhibwolf

Rhibwolf said:
			
		

> the first King’s Colour and Regimental Colour


Sorry about that.  I thought that this implied two. :'(


----------



## geo

heh.... I said two stands of colours.... and they come in pairs.


----------



## redleafjumper

Geo, I am having trouble finding this answer.  While we are waiting I found one that might fill in while there is an answer to your question on colours.

Who was the highest scoring sniper of all time?  How many confirmed kills and over what time period was this person's career?
As a clue, no other sniper is even close to this one's score.


----------



## geo

Heh... the German one or the Soviet one?

WRT my question.... guess it has a lower interest rating than other subjects...

Matter of fact, rhibwolf got the right unit.... just didn't get the info on the 2nd set of colours.

As stated, the RMR was the 1st unit in the "Empire" to have colours presented on conquored soil in 1919
They had a new stand of colours ready for presentation in 1939.  Though they were to be presented in 1940 while in England - the new stand was destroyed in the blitz.  A replacement stand was presented to the Royal Montreal Regiment in 1945 in Holland by Gen Crear, commander of the 1st Canadian Army - at the end of a successful campaign - on conquored soil.

soo........... on to Redleaf's question..........


----------



## Zallik

Simo Häyhä was the highest scoring sniper of all time, though his military career began in 1925, his work as a sniper (and kill count) did not begin until the Winter War 1939-1940 and only appears to have lasted that year. His count was 505 confirmed kills but the unofficial count is 542.
Edit: I forgot to mention that he was a soldier of the Finnish military.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4  (not sure if that site’s accepted as a resource, but it’s usually pretty good).

 http://www.snipercentral.com/snipers.htm#WWII  is a list of other sniper counts, not sure exactly how reliable this source is.


----------



## redleafjumper

Zalik, well done on Simo.  He is remembered as a national hero in Finland; he died in 2002.  Apparently most of his kills were made in three months, ending in March of 1940 when he was wounded in the face by a Soviet sniper.  He managed to get the sniper that shot him, but his career had ended.  An incredible accomplishment, especially when considering that most of his work was done with an off the rack service rifle with iron sights at ranges under 500 yards.


----------



## Rhibwolf

Another good link on Simo. http://www.mosinnagant.net/finland/simohayha.asp  It also points out that he made kills with his SMG


----------



## 3rd Herd

Okay new question:
Red legged infantry orginated with which war ? And from what branch of service?


----------



## Zallik

From what I can see, the red-legged infantry originated in the Mexican War (1846-1848). It was a battalion of artillerymen fighting as infantry under Lt. Col. Thomas Childs in the US Army. The uniform for the artillerymen had red stripes on the legs, hence the name. I’m not entirely positive that this was the first usage of the name.

 http://www.army.mil/cmh/brochures/Resaca%20de%20la%20Palma/Palo%20Alto.htm


----------



## 3rd Herd

Zallik said:
			
		

> From what I can see, the red-legged infantry originated in the Mexican War (1846-1848). It was a battalion of artillerymen fighting as infantry under Lt. Col. Thomas Childs in the US Army. The uniform for the artillerymen had red stripes on the legs, hence the name. I’m not entirely positive that this was the first usage of the name.
> 
> http://www.army.mil/cmh/brochures/Resaca%20de%20la%20Palma/Palo%20Alto.htm



Part marks: The branch of service is correct in that they were artillery trained to fight as infantry. But the red stripes replaced an earlier form of red identification. The Mexican War is a good guess but not it. ;D


----------



## geo

Hmmm.... American civil war.  Some units wore french zouave uniforms which had colourful red pants.  

If my memory serves me right, most of the units that wore that kind of uniform came from the New York area.....


----------



## 3rd Herd

geo said:
			
		

> Hmmm.... American civil war.  Some units wore french zouave uniforms which had colourful red pants.
> 
> If my memory serves me right, most of the units that wore that kind of uniform came from the New York area.....



Again: part marks as many of the New York Militia Infantry regiments indeed wore red pants hence the nickname of " Red Legged Devils" for the 14th Brooklyn and the "Red Devils for the Duryees Zouaves. But the question still stands.

While on the westerner frontier in the Civil war we had the "The Kansas Red Legs, gained their name from the knee high, red yarn leggings they wore over their boots." This group was formed from "a group of men who were from the Atchison, Kansas area. They were organizedd by Blunt and his staff by Kansas Senator Jim Lane and comprised the 3rd, 4th and 5th Kansas Regiments".(Truth Behind the Names). Though in his letters Blunt claims "During my absence in the field, matters left in charge of subordinates had been running rather loosely in the district. Among other things, an organization had sprung into existence known as "Red Legs," and whatever had been the primary object and purpose of those identified with it, its operations had certainly become fraught with danger to the peace and security of society. The organization embraced many of the most desperate characters in the country, while the inducements of easy gain had allured into it many persons who, in ordinary times, would never have consented to be connected with such an enterprise.(p.239) Notables included "Charles R. Jennison, "Wild Bill" Hickok, William F. (Buffalo Bill)Cody and William S. Tough."(Truth Behind the Names/Gilmore). Interesting enough most of the "communiques to and from them were destroyed during or after the war".(Gilmore) These "Red legs" also featured prominently in the Clint Eastwood fim “The Outlaw Josey Wales” as does Senator Jim Lane. Such were the acts of depredations committed that eventually "Blunt later issued shoot-on-sight orders to the troops sent to Western Missouri to combat the Red Legs."(Castel)
Source:

Blunt, James G. "General Blunt's Account of His, Civil War Experiences": The Kansas Historical Quarterly, May, 1932. (Vol. 1, No. 3), pgs 211- 265.

Castel, Albert, A Frontier State of War: Kansas, 1861–1865 : Ithaca, NY: Cornell UP, 1958. pgs.152–53,

Gilmore, Don. Civil War on the Missouri-Kansas Border: Pelican Publishing Co., 2005

Partisans, Guerillas, Irregulars and Bushwhackers "The Truth Behind The Names" http://www.rulen.com/partisan/partisan.htm


----------



## 3rd Herd

Zallik said:
			
		

> From what I can see, the red-legged infantry originated in the Mexican War (1846-1848). It was a battalion of artillerymen fighting as infantry under Lt. Col. Thomas Childs in the US Army. The uniform for the artillerymen had red stripes on the legs, hence the name. I’m not entirely positive that this was the first usage of the name.
> 
> http://www.army.mil/cmh/brochures/Resaca%20de%20la%20Palma/Palo%20Alto.htm



Thank you for including your source Zallik as it brings up an interesting contradiction.

In that "The engagement commenced at 1430 when the Mexican artillery opened fire on the deploying Americans at a range of one-half mile. In response, Major Ringgold and Captain Duncan pushed their batteries two hundred yards ahead of Taylor's line and initiated counterbattery fire. From the onset, it was clear that the US. artillery would dominate on the open field of battle, if only because the Mexicans' copper cannons  lacked the necessary range to be effective. Their iron round shot  often fell short of their targets and bounced slowly toward Taylor's men."(Guns Along the Rio Grande Palo Alto and Resaca de la Palma)

While in Jack Bauer's  book, The Mexican War, 1846-1848, the following is found "....while Duncan's battery supported by May's Squadron pushed about 200 yards ahead of the line. The Mexican copper cannon-balls  tended to fall short and ricohet into the American line slowly enough for the Americans to dodge them".(pg 54)

Source:
Bauer, K. Jack. The Mexican War, 1846-1848. New York: Macmillan Publishing Company, 1974.


----------



## geo

3rd....   thought it was the RED NECKS that were the target of shoot on sight directive....


----------



## 3rd Herd

Okay break is over:

The answer or at least as far as I have been able to discover goes about 10 years before the Mexican War to the Second Seminole War from 1835-1842. The Florida State Chronicle for the 23rd of December 1836 states " a column of 107 officers and men of the 3rd US Artillery led by Major Francis Langhorn(?) Dade marched out of Fort Brooke. These artillerymen trained to fight as infantrymen are called 'red legged infantry' for the bright red stockings they wore". What caught my eye was the date of 1836 and the useage of 'red legged infantry' ten years before it's official use in the Mexican War.

New Question please


----------



## FascistLibertarian

Here is an easy one (seeing as the last one went on for a long time)
What was the first infantry battalion to serve outside of Canada in the Great War?


----------



## redleafjumper

The 14th Infantry Battalion (Royal Montreal Regiment) went over in October 1914.

What unit was formed under Major John Stewart to assit in putting down the second Riel Rebellion?


----------



## BernDawg

THE ROCKY MOUNTAIN RANGERS
"NORTH WEST REBELLION COWBOY CAVALRY" 

From here,
http://members.memlane.com/gromboug/P6RMR.htm


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> The 14th Infantry Battalion (Royal Montreal Regiment) went over in October 1914.



I'll humbly submit that is the wrong answer since The Royal Canadian Regiment was stationed in Bermuda in September 1914.

Addendum: If it wasn't, it would be a silly argument over which First Contingent  (20+ inf bns) Bn's HQ was in the first boat outside the 200 nautical mile limit  .


----------



## vonGarvin

Looks like that "easy" question was a bit tricky!

Pro Patria!


----------



## geo

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> The 14th Infantry Battalion (Royal Montreal Regiment) went over in October 1914.




14 CEF went over to Europe in Oct 1914, in company of the entire 3rd Bde 

The 1st Canadian Division was raised in October 1914, assembling the 1st contingent of Canadian troops to be sent overseas for WW1

1st Brigade 
1st Battalion : Western Ontario  
2nd Battalion : Eastern Ontario  
3rd Battalion : Toronto Regiment 
4th Battalion : Central Ontario 

2nd Brigade 
5th Battalion : Western Canadian Cavalry 
7th Battalion : 1st British Columbia Regiment 
8th Battalion : The Black Devils / 90th Winnipeg Rifles 
10th Battalion : Calgary / Alberta / Winnipeg 

3rd Brigade 
13th Battalion : Royal Highlanders of Canada 
14th Battalion : Royal Montreal Regiment 
15th Battalion : 48th Highlanders of Canada 
16th Battalion : Canadian Scottish


----------



## redleafjumper

What was the name of John McCrae's horse, and what did this horse sign with his hoofprint?

Cheers,


----------



## vangemeren

The name of his horse was Bonfire. Bonfire would "sign" letters that he (Bonfire) had "written" home to John McCrae's young nieces and nephews. 

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/general/sub.cfm?source=history/firstwar/mccrae/flanders


----------



## redleafjumper

You nailed that one Van Gemeren, Bonfire is correct.

Perhaps this question might be trickier:  What was the chief weapon of Talhoffer's arsenal?


----------



## geo

Talhoffer = the sword!


----------



## redleafjumper

Geo your answer is generally correct, but a complete answer would be the long sword, hand-and-a-half, war sword or bastard sword.

All of the those names refer to the same weapon.  Master of Arms Hans Talhoffer wrote his visual instruction manual on sword fighting and medieval combat in 1467.

What tune is traditionally played for reveille on the bagpipes, and why was it so chosen?


----------



## Reccesoldier

Okay, not really part of the game but is there another noble who has as many regiments named after her as Princess Louise? 

8CH (Princess Louise's)
Princess Louise Dragoon Guards
Princess Louise Fusiliers
Princess Louise's Kensington Regiment 
Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders of Canada (The) Princess Louise Regiment
Princess Louise's Argyllshire Highlanders

She must have been smokin' hot! ;D


----------



## niner domestic

"Johnny Cope, Are you waken yet?"

Actually, Princess Louise was quite pretty.


----------



## FascistLibertarian

AJFitzpatrick is correct.
I got my information from 
Candian Expeditionary Force, 1914-1919
Official History of the Canadian Army in the First World War
By Colonel G.W.L. Nicholson, CD
http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dhh/downloads/Official_Histories/CEF_e.PDF
pp 23
It was the first infantry battalion to serve OUTSIDE of Canada


----------



## Spr.Earl

Whre does the expresion " dum dum bullit" come from?


----------



## niner domestic

It was developed in India by the Brits at the Dum Dum Arsenal on the Northwest Frontier in the late 1860s.


----------



## niner domestic

New Question: 

What, where, how or who is a "wocka"? What purpose does it serve?


And a Bonus Question:

Where does the phrase, "Between the Devil and the deep blue sea" come from? What does it mean?


----------



## geo

there's the explanation that this is from the usual meaning of Devil. If it's that Devil we are talking about then the origin is straightforward - 'the Devil is bad'; 'falling in the deep sea is bad', so caught between the two we would be in difficulty.

People who like that explanation can point back to Greek mythology for an earlier version of the idea of being caught between evil and the sea. Homer's Odyssey refers to Odysseus being caught between Scylla (a six-headed monster) and Charybdis (a whirlpool).


----------



## niner domestic

Geo: Think military application...


----------



## larry Strong

Colonel Robert Munro, uses the phrase in a book about his military service with Gustavus Adolphus: His Expedition with the Worthy Scots Regiment called MacKeyes Regiment (1637). Describing an occasion, when he was subjected to enemy fire from in front ,and the 'friendly' Swedish guns ( which were firing low over his head) at his back, he says they found themselves 'as betwixt the devil and the deep sea'.


----------



## niner domestic

Good find Larry, but that's still more in the theological arena...think Naval.  (I know it's hard for you army types...lol)


----------



## larry Strong

Ok the other application that I know off is this:

The expression is of nautical origin where "the devil" means the seam on a ship's deck nearest its side. Hence, anyone who found himself between  
the devil and the waterline of a ship or the deep blue sea had a very narrow margin for choice. 
Source  Random House Dictionary of America's Popular Proverbs & Sayings, 2nd ed.,


----------



## niner domestic

Between the Devil and the deep blue sea: The devil in wooden ships is the longest seam in the hull nearest the keel (there is technically two devils - one on each side of the keel) and is the most difficult to~ caulk or pay. The same term appears in the old expression “Between the devil and the deep blue sea” - which is the hazardous position assumed by a man who is paying the devil seam.  The term the Devil to pay also comes from this tasking and is often used to exclaim that trouble is ahead.  

Source: Canadian Navy - Custom and Traditions - www.readyayeready.com


Anyone for the wocka?


----------



## Cloud Cover

niner domestic said:
			
		

> Anyone for the wocka?



I sense you are looking for something more historical, but "wocka wocka" is a current slang term used by sailors aboard HMS Ocean to describe Chinooks.  [one wocka per rotor mount]


----------



## niner domestic

Wrong side of the pond Whiskey...not a sound but sound does have a small something to do with it.


----------



## vangemeren

Sorry, I tried to find Wocka, but these guys kept showing up...


----------



## niner domestic

LOL, this is going to be even funnier now in context with the above pictures.  

Seriously though, a wocka is how you pronounce the White House Communications Agency which was created by President Roosevelt during WWII to keep him in touch with his military commanders.  The agency has more than 850 electronics experts of which approx 150 of them have a main job now to record the President's activities for the national archives and Presidential libraries.  These pers have had training in battlefield filming along with their electronics expertise.  

The wocka's work became the centre of attention during the hearings for Clinton's campaign irregularities in the hopes that they would reveal captured images of the President either exonerating him or condemning him.  Their work was also reviewed in the aftermath of the Kennedy assassination and the attempts on Ford's and Regan's lives.  

Sources: 

http://www.usatoday.com/news/index/finance/ncfin157.htm
http://www.disa.mil/whca/index.html
http://www.amazon.com/Oversight-White-House-Communications-Agency/dp/0160541808/ref=sr_1_3/103-7172302-2761423?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179841773&sr=8-3
http://www.whitehouse.gov/whmo/whca.html


----------



## Spr.Earl

What was a " S Gun " and where were they situated?


----------



## exspy

Earl,

If I recall correctly, the Vickers "S" gun was a 40mm aircraft mounted weapon originally installed in Wellington bombers as a defensive system then subsequently placed under the wings of Hurricane ground attack marques as an air-to-ground weapon.

Ok, Ok, I didn't recall it, I read this on Wikipedia.  For some reason when I first read the question I thought it would turn out to be a Naval weapon as in "S" gun, "Q" ship etc.  Really, I had never heard of this until I researched the question which is, I suppose, the whole reason for the thread.

Dan.


----------



## 3rd Herd

"The Vickers Class "S" 40 mm gun was developed in the late 1930s as an aircraft weapon. The ammunition was based on the 40x158R cartridge case of the naval 2 pdr AA gun. The weapon was a long-recoil design derived from the 37 mm 1½pdr C.O.W. gun.The gun was originally intended as a bomber defensive weapon and was tested as such in a turret fitted to a modified Vickers Wellington II. This was not adopted for service, but when the need to attack tanks from the air was identified the "S" gun was chosen and special AP ammunition developed. Two underwing guns were fitted to Hawker Hurricane IID fighters which were issued to No.6 Squadron, RAF. They served in North Africa from mid-1942 where they achieved considerable success; claims included 144 tanks hit, of which 47 were destroyed, plus nearly 200 other vehicles. However, they suffered heavy losses, mainly to ground fire (the Hurricanes were poorly protected) and also lacked effectiveness against the Tiger tank. In 1944 the aircraft served in the Far East, mainly firing HE ammunition against road and river transport.

Tests in the Far East showed a high level of accuracy, with an average of 25% of shots fired at tanks striking the target. Attacks with HE were twice as accurate as with AP, possibly because the ballistics were a closer match with the .303" Brownings used for sighting (the HE shell was lighter and was fired at a higher velocity). By comparison, the practice strike rate of the 60 pdr RPs (rocket projectiles) fired by fighter-bombers was only 5% against tank-sized targets. Operational Research following the Normandy battles of 1944 revealed that in action this fell to only 0.5%, presumably because of problems in making the complex mental calculations about the trajectory of the slow-accelerating rockets, although the effect of a salvo of RPs on the morale of tank crews was admittedly considerable.

Class "S" Mk. 1 gun details are as follows: Weight: 134 kg. Length: 297 cm. Barrel length: 170 cm. Rate of Fire: 100 rpm. Magazine capacity: 15 round drum......."

See source link for the rest of the article and photgraphs.

Source: THE VICKERS 40 MM CLASS S GUN WITH LITTLEJOHN ADAPTOR, http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/sgun.htm


----------



## 3rd Herd

Kinda a quite so here is an easy one:

What Canadian Regiment had 4 members win the VC and then upon the cessation of hostilities was promptly disbanded? It's battle honors were distributed to several other units.


----------



## exspy

3rd,

My answer is going to be the 'Canadian Mounted Rifles' and if I'm right I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with how you worded your question.

1) Private Thomas William Holmes, 4th Bn CMR, 26 Oct 1917,
2) Major George Randolph Pearkes, 5th Bn CMR, 30-31 Oct 1917,
3) Lieutenant Charles Smith Rutherford, 5th Bn CMR, 27-28 Aug 1917 and
4) Captain John McGregor, 2nd Bn CMR, 29 Sep - 3 Oct  1917.

Unfortunately I don't have all of the CMR perpetuating units in front of me but hopefully I will be able to remedy that tomorrow.

Dan.


----------



## 3rd Herd

You are right on the regiment but William Barker is missing from your list. So does that mean 5 VC's?


----------



## Michael OLeary

Perpetuation of the CMR

I do not believe that the CMR were ever considered a single cohesive Regiment, they were 13 separate units of the CEF.


----------



## 3rd Herd

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Perpetuation of the CMR
> 
> I do not believe that the CMR were ever considered a single cohesive Regiment, they were 13 separate units of the CEF.



Mike,
do you not hate historians. Latest books have the CMR as a regiment. Hence the William Barker reference.


----------



## pidd

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Perpetuation of the CMR
> 
> I do not believe that the CMR were ever considered a single cohesive Regiment, they were 13 separate units of the CEF.



If I'm not mistaken Michael, I believe that 'squadrons' of Canadian Mounted Rifles were formed in and about the time of the South African War (including the acquistion of serving members of the NWMP), that some had disbanded immediately following, whilst others either merged with other regiments or formed newly arranged units as Canadian Mounted Rifles in the CEF.


----------



## Michael OLeary

The squadrons of the CMR which were raised for the South African War ceased to exist by that name in 1910.
http://regiments.org/regiments/na-canada/cav/LSHRC.htm
http://regiments.org/regiments/na-canada/cav/CMR01.htm

They therefore have no direct connection to the CMR units of the CEF, which were raised during the War and disbanded on demobilization.

1st Canadian Mounted Rifles
Active Dates: 	March 15, 1915 - November 15, 1920

2nd Canadian Mounted Rifles
Active Dates: 	March 15, 1915 - November 15, 1920

4th Canadian Mounted Rifles
Active Dates: 	March 15, 1915 - November 15, 1920

5th Canadian Mounted Rifles
Active Dates: 	1915 - 1919

Canadian Mounted Rifles



> The 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th Canadian Mounted Rifles (CMR) formed the main part of the 3rd Division, 8th Infantry Brigade.  The 3rd CMR was absorbed into the 1st and 2nd CMR and the 6th CMR was absorbed into the 4th and 5th CMR, so in essence to 1st to 6th CMR all became part of the 3rd Division 8th Infantry Brigade.





> Residual Canadian Mounted Rifle Units:
> 
> The 8th to 13th CMR were all assigned as reinforcements, details of which we can summarize from the information in Love and Stewart:
> 7th CMR: Raised in London from the Governor General's Body Guard, the 9th Mississauga Horse and the 1st Hussars. The battalion (less "A" Squadron) formed the Canadian Mounted Rifle Depot in England.  "A" Squadron was reorganized in Canada as the 2nd Divisional Cavalry Squadron.
> 
> 8th CMR: Raised in Ottawa from the 4th Hussars. This battalion was later broken up to provide for reinforcements in the field.  The unit was raised on March 15, 1915 and disbanded on November 15, 1920.
> 
> 9th CMR: Raised in Lloydminster from the 22nd Saskatchewan Light Horse.  This battalion was later broken up to provide for reinforcements in the field.  The unit was raised on March 15, 1915 and disbanded on November 15, 1920.
> 
> 10th CMR: Raised in Regina and Portage La Prairie from the 22nd Saskatchewan Light Horse.  This battalion was later broken up to provide for reinforcements in the field.  The unit was raised on March 15, 1915 and disbanded on November 15, 1920.
> 
> 11th CMR: Raised in Vancouver form the 30th Regiment, British Columbia Horse.  This battalion was later broken up to provide for reinforcements in the field.  The unit was raised on March 15, 1915 and disbanded on November 15, 1920.
> 
> 12th CMR: Raised in Calgary form the 15th Light Horse.  This battalion was later broken up to provide for reinforcements in the field.  The unit was raised on March 15, 1915 and disbanded on November 15, 1920.
> 
> 13th CMR: Raised in Pincher Creek from the 21st Alberta Hussars.  This battalion was later broken up to provide for reinforcements in the field.  The unit was raised on March 15, 1915 and disbanded on November 15, 1920.


----------



## Bill Smy

With regards to replies 2392 and 2393, if you are going to count Barker, should you not count William Avery Bishop (7th CMR) and Graham Thomson Lyall (4 CMR)?


----------



## exspy

Guys,

What a great mini-history of the CMR in the CEF you've produced from this question.  Way to go 3rd!

By the way 3rd, while I applaud your question I'm afraid I will have to agree with the Rogue on this one.  Each of the original 13 regiments of the CMR were designated individually as Regiments, eg 1st Regiment, CMR, CEF.  When the 1st to 6th Regiments were converted into 4 battalions of infantry the designations for these units were, obviously, changed.  As far as I have been able to find out there was no parent CMR regimental designation in the CEF.

For those future readers of this thread who may not have the information readily at hand (and with thanks to 3rd and Bill Smy), the former CMR members who were subsequently awarded the Victoria Cross during The Great War are;

1) Captain William Avery Bishop (late 7th CMR), Royal Flying Corps, 2 Jun 1917,
2) Lieutenant Graham Thomson Lyall (late 4th CMR), 102nd Canadian Infantry Battalion, CEF, 27 Sep - 1 Oct 1918, and
3) Major William George Barker (late 1st CMR), Royal Air Force, 27 Oct 1918.

Rogue, interesting stuff from both your site and the references you cited.  I would expect nothing less from a fellow Royal.

Now I guess it's my turn to pose a question and in keeping with the current theme it will have to do with the CMR.  It is also a two parter.

A)  What was the last regiment of the Canadian Army to have the term "Canadian Mounted Rifles" in its title?
B)  What was the first regiment of the Active Militia or Field Force to have the term "Canadian Mounted Rifles" in its title?

This should prove to be a mere trifle for scholars such as yourselves.

Dan.


----------



## 3rd Herd

Exspy,
my question was not so much about the CMR as it was about a couple of quotes from Wayne Ralph's Barker VC. I picked the book for two reasons. The first to look at Barker's brief post war career with respect to his classified secret report(for sixty odd years) on close air support. The second on his battles with the Canadian government, the Department of Militia and Defence and the Department of Soldiers Civil Reestablishment over his injuries suffered in his VC winning battle. But figured the VC/CMR was contentious enough to get the thread moving again. Now onto the "Citizens' Committee of One Thousand"

Bill Smy,
you are right.  


VP


----------



## exspy

3rd,

The issue between William Barker and the Canadian government was, as you state, over the veteran's benefits to which he felt entitled as a result of the injuries received in the aerial battle for which he was awarded the VC.

The government's contention was that his injuries occurred while in British not Canadian service and therefore not a responsibility of the Canadian government.  I wonder if all Canadian born pilots of the RFC, RNAS and the RAF were the subjects of the same ruling as it was applied to Barker.  I was also not clear as to why Barker was not compensated by the British government for his injuries.  I don't recall the book making the lack of British compensation issue completely clear.

I've always believed, and I think I'm correct in this, that enlistees into the CEF were in fact joining the British Army.  Certainly all of its members were subject to the British Army Act.  If this were the case and the Canadian government provided pensions to its CEF members then I cannot understand why pensions could not be provided to all Canadians with British Army Great War service.

Now, as to whether or not William Barker could be considered a CMR VC I would have to say no.  He is a Canadian VC winner and an RAF VC winner, but CMR?  I think not.

Dan.

PS:  What does this have to do with the Winnipeg General Strike and the Citizens' Committee of One Thousand?


----------



## 3rd Herd

Dan,
you are correct in that the book indicates that it should have been an 'Imperial claim'. But then on page 173 it is stated that Barker was not even awarded the VC winner stipend. I think that judging by the issues Ralph brought forth Barker at this point in his life was 'outraged' and 'humiliated' and having difficulty dealling with "......long time bureaucrat(s) with no flying experience." The other issue is the documented changes in Barkers behaviour that suggest like so many others PTSD. Hence no Imperial claim.

It also seems there were two distinct ways of joining the RFC. The first mentioned in the book was by "secondment' such as the case of Major Frederick Wanklyn who was already serving in the Royal Artillery and the Barker case of a "commission into the General List and Royal Flying Corps as a temporary 2nd Lieutenant. However this occurred prior to Barker being 'officially' released from the 1st CMR and the CEF.(pg. 33) As to the issue you raise of this happening to other serving members ie. RFC, RNAS and the RAF, Ralph points to due to administrative obstacles by unit Commanding Officers, "only a tiny percentage of the CEF's veterans in France and Belgium ever made it into the RFC."(pg. 26) And then how many of those actually survived, did not get wounded or had 'significant' independent financial means such as Bishop, Birk, Wemp thus not needing post war medical care.

As to the Winnipeg General strike I caught some of the CBC's coverage of "Protest Song and Dance The Winnipeg General Strike of 1919 is hitting the stage". In the documentary a couple of PhD's are attempting to discover if money raised for the use of reestablishing veterans under various funds was actually used to finance the prosecution of those who participated participated in the march. This appears to be fact with "While the Workers Defense Committee raised money across Canada from Canadian workers, the federal cabinet dipped into funds appropriated under the Soldiers Resettlement Act to provide nearly a quarter of a million dollars (in today¹s terms well over several million dollars) to finance the Citizens Committee's private legal campaign." "The federal government had no appropriation from parliament for these expenses. The money was made available through Orders in Council from the Soldiers Resettlement Fund appropriated by parliament to deal with the costs of demobilization after the Great War."(Black and Chaboyer)  Did this money ever get returned ?

source:

Black, Errol., Chaboyer, Jan. "Conspiracy in Winnipeg: How the 1919 general strike leaders were railroaded into prison and what we must do now to make amends". http://www.mfl.mb.ca/a38.shtml

Protest Song and Dance The Winnipeg General Strike of 1919 is hitting the stage. http://www.cbc.ca/arts/theatre/strike.html


----------



## 3rd Herd

A midsummer wake up call:
Who was the first Canadian General to command a Canadian Division, British Divison and US Divison and the name of the operation?


----------



## pidd

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> A midsummer wake up call:
> Who was the first Canadian General to command a Canadian Division, British Divison and US Divison and the name of the operation?



A guess.  Was it Harry Crerar with Operation Veritable, the Rhineland, 1945?  Of course, there were several
British divisions with the Canadian Corps as well as Dutch and Polish and the Yanks, I think.


----------



## 3rd Herd

pidd said:
			
		

> A guess.  Was it Harry Crerar with Operation Veritable, the Rhineland, 1945?  Of course, there were several
> British divisions with the Canadian Corps as well as Dutch and Polish and the Yanks, I think.


Close but no, and sorry I lumped the Polish in with the British rather than recognizing their individual units.


----------



## Weinie

LGen Foulkes and Operation Anger


----------



## 3rd Herd

Weinie said:
			
		

> LGen Foulkes and Operation Anger


Nope ;D


----------



## DaveTee

It was Lt. Gen Guy Simonds and the battle of the sheldt. (?)


----------



## 3rd Herd

DaveTee said:
			
		

> It was Lt. Gen Guy Simonds and the battle of the sheldt. (?)


as with pidd close, actually you closer  ;D


----------



## DaveTee

it was Lt. Gen Simonds but it was the falaise pocket, operation totalise?


----------



## smitty66

Lt. Gen Guy Simmonds,  Operation Veritable?


----------



## Danjanou

Athur Currie during the 100 Days campaign in 1918. I do remember that the US II Corps was under British command in the Amiens sector and at one time one of their Divisions came under Monash’s command, so it’s possiblethe the other US (and a British) Division was under command of the other shock troops Corps.


----------



## 3rd Herd

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Athur Currie during the 100 Days campaign in 1918. I do remember that the US II Corps was under British command in the Amiens sector and at one time one of their Divisions came under Monash’s command, so it’s possiblethe the other US (and a British) Division was under command of the other shock troops Corps.


Glad to see you back, wrong war, finished unpacking your "suitcase" yet. ;D


----------



## pidd

Okay...is it 'Operation Pheasant' when Guy Simmonds led in the liberation of Achtmaal, the autumn 1944?


----------



## 3rd Herd

pidd said:
			
		

> Okay...is it 'Operation Pheasant' when Guy Simmonds led in the liberation of Achtmaal, the autumn 1944?


again close but no cigar.  ;D ;D

The answer:

"Dubbed Operation Suitcase, this important task of protecting 2nd Divison's rear line was being pursued by divisons from four different countries: great Britian, Poland, the United States and Canada all under command of the 1st Canadian Army...........This was the first time that an American unit had ever served under Canadian command."

the General was Guy Simmonds. The US Divison: 104 US Infantry Divison "Timberwolves"

Source:
Whitaker and Whitaker, Tug of War:The Canadian Victory That Opened Antwerp pgs. 204-205


----------



## pidd

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> again close but no cigar.  ;D ;D
> 
> The answer:
> 
> "Dubbed Operation Suitcase, this important task of protecting 2nd Divison's rear line was being pursued by divisons from four different countries: great Britian, Poland, the United States and Canada all under command of the 1st Canadian Army...........This was the first time that an American unit had ever served under Canadian command."
> 
> the General was Guy Simmonds. The US Divison: 104 US Infantry Divison "Timberwolves"
> 
> Source:
> Whitaker and Whitaker, Tug of War:The Canadian Victory That Opened Antwerp pgs. 204-205



3rd Herd...I like a good cigar!
According to the official combat history of the US 415th Regiment of the 104th Infantry Division 'Timberwolves', a part of which has been posted on a Dutch site http://members.home.nl/oostvogels/Liberation.htm  the actual name of the Operation was 'Pheasant' with the code name 'Suitcase' and it was indeed a part of the liberation of Achtmaal led
by Guy Simmonds.


----------



## Danjanou

pidd said:
			
		

> 3rd Herd...I like a good cigar!
> According to the official combat history of the US 415th Regiment of the 104th Infantry Division 'Timberwolves', a part of which has been posted on a Dutch site http://members.home.nl/oostvogels/Liberation.htm  the actual name of the Operation was 'Pheasant' with the code name 'Suitcase' and it was indeed a part of the liberation of Achtmaal led
> by Guy Simmonds.



Close enough for Government work Padre, you can raid my humidor....... as soon as I get in unpacked. 8)


----------



## pidd

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Close enough for Government work Padre, you can raid my humidor....... as soon as I get in unpacked. 8)



Splendid, Danjanou, splendid.  Thank you.  
I'll see if I can find that old bottle of Hennessy XO from the bishop to go with it. ;D


----------



## 3rd Herd

pidd said:
			
		

> 3rd Herd...I like a good cigar!
> According to the official combat history of the US 415th Regiment of the 104th Infantry Division 'Timberwolves', a part of which has been posted on a Dutch site http://members.home.nl/oostvogels/Liberation.htm  the actual name of the Operation was 'Pheasant' with the code name 'Suitcase' and it was indeed a part of the liberation of Achtmaal led
> by Guy Simmonds.



Okay we send email off to Whitaker's publisher telling him to correct his information. Keegan does that with every new edition of his works. But I like Whitaker as he was CO of the RHLI when this all going on. One of his or maybe Copps quotes "the only problem with official military history is it is contemporary, collaborative and complementary and written by senior officers." ;D

Feel free to toss something out.


----------



## pidd

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> Okay we send email off to Whitaker's publisher telling him to correct his information. Keegan does that with every new edition of his works. But I like Whitaker as he was CO of the RHLI when this all going on. One of his or maybe Copps quotes "the only problem with official military history is it is contemporary, collaborative and complementary and written by senior officers." ;D
> 
> Feel free to toss something out.



The Whitakers are terrific and this is such a small thing.  I've googled both 'Operation Suitcase' and 'Operation Pheasant' and they appear to be interchangeable depending on the writer.  The '60th Anniversary' booklet of the Second World War in the UK does refer to 'Operation Suitcase' http://www.veterans-uk.info/pdfs/publications/comm_booklets/scheldt.pdf
The Dutch references appear to prefer 'Pheasant'.  

I wonder why.


----------



## 3rd Herd

pidd said:
			
		

> The Whitakers are terrific and this is such a small thing.  I've googled both 'Operation Suitcase' and 'Operation Pheasant' and they appear to be interchangeable depending on the writer.  The '60th Anniversary' booklet of the Second World War in the UK does refer to 'Operation Suitcase' http://www.veterans-uk.info/pdfs/publications/comm_booklets/scheldt.pdf
> The Dutch references appear to prefer 'Pheasant'.
> I wonder why.


you may have answered your own question "they appear to be interchangeable depending on the writer."


----------



## exspy

Gentlemen,

I posed a question in June that went as follows:

A)  What was the last regiment of the Canadian Army to have the term "Canadian Mounted Rifles" in its title?
B)  What was the first regiment of the Active Militia or Field Force to have the term "Canadian Mounted Rifles" in its title?

I realize now that I made a tremendous error in how I worded this.  What I had meant to ask, and what I completely messed up while I was composing it, was what were the regiments (first and last) with the term "Mounted Rifles" in their title.  My apologies to all.

As posted originally the answer to both would be, of course, The Canadian Mounted Rifles.  They were raised on July 1, 1901, renamed The Royal Canadian Mounted Rifles on Oct 1, 1903, and became Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians) on Oct 1, 1909.
(Source: The Regiments and Corps of The Canadian Army (1964))

The answers which I was looking for, if I had done it right the first time, would have been the same as above for part B.

The answer to part A would have been The (Reserve) Manitoba Mounted Rifles which, on April 1, 1946, became the 67th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment (Manitoba Mounted Rifles), RCA.
(Source: Canadian Army Orders, 1946)

Unfortunately I don't know whatever became of the 67th LAA as I am not as detailed in my artillery history as I could be.

As there is no question outstanding at the moment, may I have you entertain the following?

In 1958 the Canadian Army (Militia) armoured units were renamed.  They had their numerical designations removed and went by regimental name only.  Of the 26 units involved only 13 were allowed to use the post nominal (RCAC).  The question to be answered is why were only 13 of 26 militia regiments of the RCAC allowed to have (RCAC) at the end of their title?

I hope that this time I've asked the question properly.

Dan.


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

The simple answer is that those regiments with RCAC attached had an infantry origin. In some cases it is obvious by their name, others not so. The regiments without RCAC attached had a cavalry or armour origin
A couple of examples of the (RCAC) regiments
In the obvious infantry origin category
The Halifax Rifles 
The Queen's York Rangers (1st American Regiment)
In the not obvious category
Le Régiment de Hull
The British Columbia Regiment (Duke of Connaught's Own)

The conversions of infantry regiments to armour occurred during WWII.

A quick regimental nomenclature question: Which regiment changed its name in order to carry colours?


----------



## exspy

AJ,

Well done son, well done.  Obviously not a difficult question as it took you less than 3 hours to come up with the correct answer.  The following quote is from "The RCAC An Illustrated History" pp 359-360:

"Army Headquarters was concerned by the fact that many armoured regiments carried designations that, to the uninitiated, would not immediately identify them as armoured.  For example, a foreign liaison officer told to locate Le Regiment de Hull or the Elgin Regiment in the field, might be excused for thinking that he was looking for a unit of infantry.  The problem did not exist with names such as The South Alberta Light Horse, since most armies had converted their cavalry regiments to armour while retaining the cavalry names.  To resolve any possible confusion, in May 1958 the acronym RCAC in brackets was placed after the name of any unit in the Corps that did not have a cavalry title.  A confused clerk once placed the initials in the title of the 1st Hussars in an official document and, like too many administrative errors, this one continued to surface year after year."

I must also add that while you are correct in stating that the conversion of infantry corps units to armoured corps units did occur in The Second World War, the post-war conversions were a completely separate occurrence.  These conversions took place on 1 April, 1946 and were driven by the need to organize sufficient armour for the Reserve Force's two armoured divisions and two separate armoured brigades.  The 1946 numbering system was accomplished not in the random way of the late conflict but by placing the units in order of seniority and numbering them thusly.  With the Active Force armoured regiments taking the first two numbers the guard cavalry came next with the GGHG and the 4th PLDG being the 3rd and 4th respectively, and so on up the line.

Now, as to your question.  I have found two infantry units which began their histories as 'Rifle Regiments' and were re-designated at a later date.  As you, AJ, are from Kingston and one of the units about which I discovered this is the Princess of Wales' Own Regiment, I would hazard a guess that this is the answer to your question.  The 14th Regiment 'The Princess of Wales' Own Rifles' were re-designated 'The Kingston Regiment (The Princess of Wales' Own) during the militia reorganization of 1920.  The following year the were renamed again becoming 'The Princess of Wales' Own Regiment'.

If this is not the one you were thinking of I will provide the name of the second one for you.

Dan.


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

Yes that was the one I was looking for but now I am interested to know what the other one is.


----------



## exspy

AJ,

The other regiment I found is just up the highway from you.  It's none other than The Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa.

The unit was organized in 1881 and became (in that same year) the 43rd 'Ottawa and Carleton' Battalion of Rifles.  After almost 40 years and two minor name changes it dropped its Rifle designation and became, during the militia reorganization of 1920, a regiment of the line with the name The Ottawa Regiment (The Duke of Cornwall's Own) .

Two years (1922) it became The Ottawa Highlanders and not until 1933 was it named The Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa.

If one looks at the history of Canadian infantry regiments it can be seen that at one time almost every urban centre in the country (large and small) had a regiment of Rifles (ou Carabiniers).  This was probably due to the fact that at the time Rifle Regiments were considered to be very, very fashionable.  Amalgamations and reorganizations have significantly reduced their number.  When the history of the countries regiments of the line are studied it is found that many contain a Rifle pedigree.  Another case in point are The Calgary Highlanders which spent its first 10 years (1910 - 1920) as the 103rd Regiment 'Calgary Rifles'.

Regimental titles which are gone forever include the Victoria Rifles of Canada, The Royal Rifles of Canada, The Oxford Rifles, The Halton Rifles which became The Lorne Rifles (Scottish), the 60th Rifles of Canada, Les Carabiniers de Sherbrooke, The Halifax Rifles, The Algonquin Rifles and The King's Own Rifles of Canada.  And this list contains just those Rifle Regiments which have existed since 1920.

Sorry AJ, to have strayed so badly off topic but I really enjoy this stuff.

Do you have another question?

Dan.


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

Thanks for the detailed answer

Although I would question the "gone forever" aspect of some of the rifle regiments you cited since those on the supplementary order of battle still under a Rifles title do maintain an existence of some fashion. i.e. The Victoria Rifles of Canada and The Halifax Rifles (RCAC). They are not disbanded in the sense that others are.
A thought is that Canada never got a "height of fashion" Highlander Rifle regiment. I wonder if anyone tried this but as there is no equivalent British unit the idea was rejected,
The Highland Light Infantry of Canada and its descendant The Royal Highland Fusiliers of Canada of course come close, but Light Infantry, Fusiliers and Rifles all have their own separate histories and traditions.
The Transition of the 43rd Ottawa and Carleton Bn of Rifles to the Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa does have some resonance in that the late lamented Cameronians of the British Army had Scottish Rifles as their subsidiary title.


----------



## exspy

AJ,

You're aware of the Supplementary Order of Battle (or S.O.B.)?  I thought no one under 50 would remember that!  Again, good on you son.

Ah yes, a Scottish Rifle Regiment, why none in Canada you ask?  Well there was The Lorne Rifles (Scottish) in Halton County prior to the 1936 militia reorganization but I don't recall them being allied with THE Scottish Rifle Regiment, The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles).  A regiment too proud to amalgamate during the post-war cutbacks and deciding on disbandment instead.  There may have been a Canadian unit of the same name at one time or another but I would have to search my dusty old volumes to find out when and where.  I will try to do that this week.

As you must be aware every Canadian town and city had, just like they had a Rifle Regiment, a Scottish or highland regiment in place.  Some even had two.  Toronto still does.  An historical fact is that the only NPAM regiments in the Canadian Militia during 1939 with two battalions each and a regimental headquarters were Scottish; The Black Watch in Montreal and The Canadian Scottish in Victoria.  The Queen's Own Rifles also had two battalions between the wars but lost the second one in 1936.

Now, as to your contention that a Light Infantry or Fusiliers regiment would come close to the prestige of a Rifle Regiment, I would suggest that you not repeat that in front of a Rifleman!  They really do think that that 180 paces a minute thing makes them cool.  But then Highlanders think the same thing about 110 paces a minute.  Personally I'll take 120 per minute any day.

The last thing you brought up in your answer was Camerons and Cameronians and how their connection might have some resonance in the Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa.  While I know Camerons and Cameronians have different connotations I have never been able to articulate these differences.  Until now.  Thank God for wikipedia.  The Camerons are a major west highland Scottish clan.  "The Clan Cameron lands are in Lochaber and within their lands is the mountain Ben Nevis which is the highest mountain in the British Isles."  Now as to the Cameronians, "Cameronian was a name given to a section of the Scottish Covenanters who followed the teachings of Richard Cameron".  And if you want to be confused about a subject try following the history of the Covenanters!  The short answer is there is a difference between the two and Camerons and Cameronians are not the same thing.  Here endeth the lesson.

I'm really enjoying this exchange.  Do you have a next question?

Dan.


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

A more salty question:

What is 3rd oldest currently commissioned warship.
The first two are easy of course.


----------



## geo

of which country?


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

I was looking for the 3rd oldest commissioned warship in the world; although I suppose the 3rd oldest commissioned warship of any specific navy might prove to be a greater challenge or at least a bit of work looking it up.


----------



## geo

Oldest Swedish would be the Vasa 1628 (not really afloat anymore - not that it ever was  )
Oldest US one would be USS Constitution 1797
Oldest Brit one would be HMS Victory  1805


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

But the Vasa isn't in commission.


----------



## je suis prest

HMS Victory was launched in 1765, but not commissioned until May 1778, so she is probably the oldest commissioned ship.  I don't know the third oldest, although I suspect it might be South American.


----------



## Jantor

Maybe it would be the British light cruiser H.M.S. Caroline? 

Veteran of the Battle of Jutland

Still used as a naval classroom in Belfast N.I but due to be decommissioned in 2011

http://www.answers.com/topic/hms-caroline


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

H.M.S. Caroline is the correct answer


Incidentally the 1805 date for HMS Victory is the date of a major reconstruction, commonly cited by proponents of the USS Constitution's claim who apparently can't be happy with just being the oldest commissioned warship afloat.
As the only original part on both ships is probably the ships' respective bells it is to me a weak argument


----------



## Jantor

Okay....guess it's my turn  

Sticking with the nautical theme.

Most of us are familiar with the "Tribal" class Destroyers that operated in the RCN during WWII.

During the D-Day landings, June 6th 1944, there were two RCN "V" class Destroyers engaged in operations off the landing beaches.

What were the names of those two ships?


----------



## 3rd Herd

HMCS Algonquin and  HMCS Sioux


----------



## Jantor

Not so tough huh?  :-\

Ah well.....your turn


----------



## 3rd Herd

Jantor said:
			
		

> Not so tough huh?  :-\
> 
> Ah well.....your turn


no just happy to hunt for answers right now, feel free to continue


----------



## Jantor

Okay....next question then

During the early stages of WWII the Atlantic Ferry Organization began to ferry aircraft across the Atlantic from Canada to England. After this organization had shown that this was a good idea it became a full fledged RAF formation called Ferry Command. 
Who was its first commander?


----------



## 3rd Herd

Jantor said:
			
		

> Okay....next question then
> 
> During the early stages of WWII the Atlantic Ferry Organization began to ferry aircraft across the Atlantic from Canada to England. After this organization had shown that this was a good idea it became a full fledged RAF formation called Ferry Command.
> Who was its first commander?



"In June 1941 the President of the United States informed the British Prime Minister, Mr. Churchill, that he was prepared to help us by flying all the aircraft des tined for Great Britain from the factories on the west coast of the United States, to Montreal or to any other airport in Canada, by Army pilots, and so release the American civilian pilots to help us fly the Atlantic, which again would release many of our Service pilots who were doing this work, for operational duties in other R.A.F. Commands. The President would only do this however, on the distinct understanding that the aircraft were handed over to a Service Command and not to a civil organization. It was, therefore, on July 20th, 1941, that ATFERO ceased to exist and the R.A.F. Ferry Command was formed in Montreal under the command of Air Chief Marshal Sir Frederick Bowhill."
http://empireclubfoundation.com/details.asp?SpeechID=2788&FT=yes


----------



## Jantor

Once again you are correct  

Air Chief Marshal Sir Frederick Bowhill (1880-1960)

And I'm out (gotta work)


----------



## 3rd Herd

Following this theme:
Type, amount of A/C and officer commanding that proved the northern ferry route was practical.


----------



## exspy

3rd,

The following quote from 'Behind the Glory' (1992) by Ted Barris provides the answer to your question:

QUOTE:
On November 10,1940, at a makeshift airfield known as Hattie's Camp (later Gander aerodrome) in Newfoundland, Air Vice-Marshal D.C.T. Bennett stepped into the cockpit of a brand-new Lockheed Hudson bomber.  He taxied away from five old railway cars that were functioning as an operations room, radio quarters, weather bureau, offices and barracks, and led six other Hudsons into the night-time sky over Newfoundland.  A little more that ten hours later, Bennett and his group of Atfero ferry pilots landed all seven Hudsons at Aldergrove, Northern Ireland.  The delivery of the Hudsons - from American factory to British warfront - had taken several days, not the usual four to five months.

It was Armistice Day, 1940.
UNQUOTE.

Awaiting your next question.

Dan.


----------



## 3rd Herd

Dan,
good answer. As usual you are correct and thank you for the source citing.

Moving forward in history to Korea. What naval vessel held the record for most trains busted and when was the "trainbuster club formed".


----------



## Weinie

I found this:

.

THE TRAINBUSTERS CLUB 
Edited by Jerry Proc

Of the various clubs formed by the naval forces during the Korean conflict, the most renowned was that of an group that focused on the destruction of trains which ran the deadly gauntlet in the Taeback Mountain range. The Trainbusters Club (TBC) saw its beginnings in July 1952 when the American destroyer Orleck destroyed two trains during a two week period. The commander of Task Force 95, recognizing a morale booster when he saw one, declared Orleck the trainbusting champion and issued a challenge to the rest of the American task group to beat that score.
The TBC was initially considered to be a United States Navy project. In the spirit of fairness and competition, the challenge to destroy trains was eventually extended to ships from other navies. Had the idea of the TBC been formed sooner, many more ships would have qualified for membership and the official count of 28 trains destroyed would have been much greater. The first rule for admittance to the 'club' and the membership fee, required that the train's engine be destroyed. After that, any damage inflicted to a train would be counted as a kill regardless of the fate of the engine. Rules were so strictly enforced that all kills recorded were legitimate. Membership, however, was difficult because of the engine clause. Trains that were southbound and laden with war material were considered much more valuable targets than northbound trains which were essentially empty. Korean train engineers soon learned what 'hell on earth' meant. They too, were brave men. They found themselves dodging shell explosions just a few feet ahead of their travel. They took their trains across damaged tracks and trestles which swayed precariously. They did their utmost to save the trains by attempting repairs. During daylight, they hid in tunnels hoping that the entrances and exits did not get blocked by the persistent and accurate shelling of the naval guns. 
Out of the twenty-eight kills officially tallied by the TBC, the RCN accounted for eight. CRUSADER, HAIDA, and ATHABASKAN were collectively credited with that number. That gave the RCN the proportional record which was a significant feat in itself. The main achievement, however, was the winning of the championship by HMCS CRUSADER, who bagged four trains, three of them in a single twenty four hour period. The business of trainbusting was based on extreme patience, a degree of luck and superb gunnery. Often the Korean weather kept ships far out at sea so the guns were operating at maximum range and had to be able to hit a speeding target. Poor weather also made verification of damage very difficult. 

HMCS HAIDA arrived in Korea on November 6, 1952 when action was already waning. Her crew were well aware of their ship's history and they were determined to make Korea a prominent page of that book. It was imperative that HAIDA join the TBC if only to add one more item to her list of accomplishments. The opportunity came at 0300 hours on December 19 near Sonjin but was lost when the engine escaped. Her gunners pounded the rest of the train but their hearts were not in it. They left most of the cars standing as a 'gift' to USS THE SULLIVANS when that ship came on the scene at 0516 hours. HAIDA'S crew reasoned that their chances of joining the TBC had slipped because of the escaped engine and their orders to proceed to Sasebo Japan within a few hours. HAIDA returned the following March for a two week patrol. During that time, only one engine was seen and fired on. The range was too great and once again the ship went away empty handed. 

On May 26, at 2215 hours, HAIDA was anchored near Tanch'on. The night was bright under clear skies and the sea was calm. Both 'A' and 'B' guns were closed up to action stations and now it was a case of waiting. At 2320, a train was spotted. Carefully, the guns were swung to lead the engine and fired. Seconds later, the shells found their mark. The engine, hit dead center, exploded and toppled onto its side while the trailing cars spilled along the track. HAIDA had finally joined the 'club'. For the next three hours, her guns hammered the remainder of the train. Three days later, HAIDA was back, this time several kilometers south of Sonjin. At 2200, a train was sighted, heading north. All guns opened fire and forced the train to come to a standstill. Starshell revealed that the engine was yards short of the safety afforded by a tunnel. Scant seconds gave the trainmen the time they needed to uncouple the engine and move it into the tunnel but it was too late for the rest of the train. 

During her first tour of duty in Korea, Canada's most celebrated warship ran up a total of six east coast and three west coast patrols. HAIDA spent more than half of her 217 days in Korea on active patrol, was fired on twice by shore batteries and both times destroyed her assailants. Two of her ship's company earned honours for their service. The Distinguished Service Cross went to her Commanding Officer, Cdr. Dunn Lantier, RCN while PO Ralph Smith earned a Mention-in-Dispatches for some superb gun-laying while downing a bridge. Officially, HAIDA was credited for the destruction of 2.5 trains in Korea.


----------



## Rhibwolf

HMCS CRUSADER has claim the trainbusting championship, 

http://navy.dwan.dnd.ca/english/refs/stories/crus.asp (doesnt come outright and say it)
http://ussjohnrpiercedd753.com/history.htm  scroll to the bottom for the leader board.  Of note, the USN has the most kills.

Much ado is made over the fledling RCN's first two ships, NIOBE and RAINBOW.  While NIOBE arrived in Canada earlier, RAINBOW was commissioned first.  What was the third ship commissioned into the RCN?  Another of the first ships commissioned ended up in Russia shortly after the war started:
What was the sequence of her names (from shipyard to russian ownership)   
what class of ship was she?


----------



## geo

http://www.gwpda.org/naval/earlgrey.htm

An unusual scene photographed in the Autumn of 1914 is the accompanying picture of the ship's company of HMCS Earl Grey (despite the signboard, she was commissioned in the Royal Canadian Navy) taken around the time she was preparing to sail for for Archangel, Russia, where she was turned over to the Russian Navy who wanted her for ice-breaking capabilities. 

The Earl Grey was built by the Canadian government as a freight and passenger steamer for service in Northumerland Strait between Prince Edward Island and the mainland. She was the third ship commissioned in the RCN - after the cruisers Niobe and Rainbow - having served under the White Ensign briefly in 1912 during a cruise by the Governor General, the Duke of Connaught. She was sold to Russia for $493,000. 

The Earl Grey is still steaming the White Sea as the Fyodor Litke, according to the current edition of Jane's Fighting Ships. (1964) During her earlier Russian career she was known as the Kanada.


----------



## Rhibwolf

Geo, good answer, and correct enough to give you credit for the kill.  The Janes article your source refered to is from the 60s, and no longer current. 
A few small details to add to your answer. When she was commissioned by the Russians, she was indeed given the name of Kanada, but in 1920 she was renamed International by the new regime, and in 23 became the Fedor Litke.  She is believed to have been scrapped in 1959, but her fame lives on in Russia: In 1955 the Fedor Litke steamed north of Spitzbergen to reach 83 deg. 11 min. Her wheelhouse and radio shack are now on display at the Maritime Museum in Moscow.


----------



## exspy

Gentlemen,

Since there has been no activity on this thread for over a month I thought I would pose an easy one to fire it up again.

What was the first Canadian artillery group (either unit or sub-unit) to participate in Operation Snowgoose?

Bonus points for additional details in the answer.

Dan.


----------



## geo

> Cyprus
> When the advance party for the R22eR and the RCD landed at Nicosia for OP Snowgoose on 15 March 1964, it was thought that the mission in Cyprus would last three months. By the time it ended with Snowgoose 59 in 1993, virtually every Regular Force soldier in Armor, Artillery and Infantry units had served with the United Nations Force in Cyprus (UNFICYP).
> http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1.asp?id=265



Well... would venture to say that the initial troops deployed to Cyprus in 1964 were pulled from West Germany.
If gunners were deployed along with the R22R and the RCDs they would have come from 2RCHA.


----------



## vonGarvin

Would it be Aug 87, 5e RALC?  Or was there an arty unit (or subunit) prior to that?


----------



## exspy

geo,

You're close, in a way, but for the wrong reason.  The first troops to Cyprus (March, 1964) were from Valcartier and Gagetown.  1 R22eR was the UN Standby battalion and waiting for just such an event to take place.  A reconnaissance squadron from the RCD in Gagetown was sent with them.  The Vandoos and a troop of Ferrets from the RCD were flown to the island (remember the pictures of Governor-General Vanier shaking the hands of the men at Ancienne-Lorette as they boarded the aircraft?) while the bulk of the supplies were shipped over on HMCS Bonaventure.

Mortarman,

You're way too far in the future.  Come back a couple of decades and try again.

Dan.


----------



## 3rd Herd

exspy said:
			
		

> Gentlemen,
> 
> Since there has been no activity on this thread for over a month I thought I would pose an easy one to fire it up again.
> 
> What was the first Canadian artillery group (either unit or sub-unit) to participate in Operation Snowgoose?
> 
> Bonus points for additional details in the answer.
> 
> Dan.



"along with a Battery of 2 RCHA"

UNFICYP - United Nations Forces in Cyprus 1964 http://www.army.dnd.ca/RCD/rcd/history/unficyp_e.htm

or

W Bty (Med) was attached to 4 RCHA for training and went to Cyprus for Peace Keeping duties under command of 2 Cdn Guards from Sep. 65 to Apr. 66. http://arlloyd2.tripod.com/4rcha.html


----------



## exspy

3rd,

Correctamundo!!!!!    It was Whiskey Battery, the red-headed step child of the RCHA.

W Battery was the medium battery (155mm C1 towed howitzers) of 4 RCHA (Petawawa) up until 1965.  That year 4 RCHA was converted into a light regiment equipped with M30 4.2" mortars and assigned to support the Special Service Force (the 1964 version, not the 1977 one).  W Battery was put under the command of 2 RCHA in Germany but remained stationed in Petawawa.  It was administratively attached fap (for all purposes) to 4 RCHA.  Ergo the red-headed step child reference.  Too far away from Hemer to be of concern to 2 RCHA, and too heavy a unit for the lightfooted 4 RCHA.

When 2 Cdn Gds (Petawawa) was assigned the fall 1965 rotation for Op Snowgoose it was short of personnel.  1 Cdn Gds (Picton) was now the UN Standby battalion and had priority on the bodies coming out of the Depot.  W Battery organized a rifle company from its ranks which served in Cyprus under command of the second battalion.  2 Cdn Gds and W Battery were relieved by 2 RHC in the spring of 1966.

Okay 3rd, over to you.
Dan.


----------



## 3rd Herd

No, Dan you is on a roll. ;D  Fire away.


----------



## exspy

Okay, here goes.

Who in the Canadian Army was 'The Officer Commanding the Inlying Picquet'?  With whom was he serving?  Where would he have served?

Hint: I don't think this will be found by googling.

Dan.


----------



## BernDawg

That would be the Orderly Officer or Duty Officer of a Guards Regiment.

 I arrived at the Second Battalion, The Canadian Guards at Camp Petawawa, was met by The Officer Commanding the Inlying Picquet or Picquet Officer -- Guardese for what is known everywhere else as the Orderly Officer 

Google, First hit.  

http://thercr.ca/history/20questions_young_officer/1961_ditter.htm


----------



## redleafjumper

Who is the only Canadian recipient of the Gold Life Saving Medal of the Order of St. John?

Cheers,


----------



## geo

> In addition to the above-mentioned picquets, I always had an inlying picquet of 20 men who slept in front of the guns. This picquet did not go to its post until after their evening meal, and was probably not there on the night of the attack owing to the early hour at which it was made. The total strength of the force was 342 officers, N.C.O.s and men.
> 
> Strength of the picquets: A - N.C.O. and 12 men B - 1 N.C.O. and 6 men C - 1 N.C.O. and 6 men D - 1 Officer and 20 men Inlying picquet
> http://users.westconnect.com.au/~ianmac/readroom.htm



Inlying picquet =  body of soldiers held in readiness for military or police duties within the limits of a camp or barracks is also called a picquet or " inlying picquet."


----------



## Danjanou

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Who is the only Canadian recipient of the Gold Life Saving Medal of the Order of St. John?
> 
> Cheers,



No jumping the line my old trackmate  8)

Wait until the last question is answered and whoever got it right has the option of the next question. Lets not turn this into a clusterfrack like the name that weapon/vehicle thread.  ;D


----------



## 3rd Herd

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Who is the only Canadian recipient of the Gold Life Saving Medal of the Order of St. John?
> 
> Cheers,



a long shot but- Lassie

Edit to add:

Sorry Danjanou  :-[


----------



## exspy

BernDawg,

You are correct.  It was used by The Canadian Guards at whatever post they were stationed.

I see my clever ruse of "it's not googlable" did not work.  The force is strong in you young BernDawg!

The next question is yours, I think.

Dan.


----------



## BernDawg

Thank you, Thank you very much (insert Elvis drawl here)

Where did the expression "Lock, stock and barrel" come from?


----------



## exspy

BernDawg,

I actually saw a paid re-enactor in period uniform explain this to a group of tourists at Fort George (Niagara-on-the-Lake) one summer long ago.

The King's soldier was explaining the workings of the Brown Bess musket to everyone.  The Brown Bess at the time was the cutting edge of killing technology used by the British infantry.  It was composed of three parts.  The stock is the wooden part that runs from the shoulder stock to just short of the muzzle.  The lock comprises the moving parts located to the right of the breech (trigger, hammer, pan, striker etc).  The barrel is, of course, the barrel which carries the bullet to velocity.  Hence, if one had everything needed for a particular task, it was said that one had "the lock, stock and barrel".

Dan.


----------



## TN2IC

BernDawg said:
			
		

> Where did the expression "Lock, stock and barrel" come from?



Means "The whole thing" and it comes from musket. The lock, or flintlock, which is the firing mechanism. The stock, which is the wooden butt-end of the gun. The barrel.. as the metal tube.



Edit to add this part.
Ah.. someone beat me to it. Bravo Zulu to you.


----------



## BernDawg

Close gentlemen, very close but I'm looking for a little more.  I'll leave it out there for a little longer yet.


----------



## je suis prest

Most sources indicate the first use of the term was by Sir Walter Scott in 1817, when he wrote:"Like the High-landman's gun, she wants stock, lock, and barrel, to put her into repair."

That is, of course, surprisingly late.


----------



## JBoyd

Straight out of wikipedia 



> Lock, stock, and barrel is a popular term used predominately in the United Kingdom and North America meaning 'all', 'total', 'everything'. The term itself derives from the components of a musket; the 'Lock' being the firing mechanism, 'Stock' being the wooden butt-end of the gun and 'Barrel; being cylindrical component, concurring 'all' the components of the gun.
> 
> The Term was first recorded in the letters of Sir Walter Scott in 1817, in the line "Like the High-landman's gun, she wants stock, lock, and barrel, to put her into repair".[citation needed]
> 
> It is, however, thought that this term evolved into a popular saying some years before in England.


----------



## BernDawg

Roger that.  The refrence I had was that the term, while meaning everything of course, was taken from (and for) vendors of firearms in the preceding centuries as they would sell parts of firearms and the buyer had to specify that they required the lock, stock and barrel to ensure that they, in fact, recieved an entire firearm that was ready to use.  To settle the bun-fight I'll give it to the first poster Exspy.  Take 'er away brother.
 (however I am dying to find out the answer to Redleaf's question)


----------



## redleafjumper

I don't want to jump the cue, but if someone wants to put forth a guess I will be happy to put out the answer.

Cheers,,
Redleafjumper


----------



## JBoyd

I have tried to find the answer however have come to dead ends, I have read about two recent recipients, a Cadet with the St. Johns Ambulance service in england, and a 9 year old girl who have both been award the medal, however i also read that only 2 Gold Life Saving Medals had ever been given out.


----------



## exspy

I can differ to redleafjumper for now.

My next question has to do with the Canadian Airborne Regiment.

Dan.


----------



## redleafjumper

Thanks exspy.  I will provide a clue if that helps.  The person in question (note clever avoidance of gender identification) was also awarded the Cross of Valour.

Cheers,

Redleafjumper


----------



## redleafjumper

Gee, I picked this one because it didn't google well.  Someone must have a guess.  You'll say, "Oh, I should have known that!" when the answer is revealed.


----------



## JBoyd

I am just going to throw a name out there because i have tried to google this as well and have had no luck to find an answer. 

Robert Gordon Teather?


----------



## redleafjumper

No, likely a worthy candidate, but not the one.


----------



## JBoyd

Well i would say the two SARtechs that were awarded it most recently would be worthy candidates as well, however their are two of them not one.

perhaps another clue as this questions seems almost non-googlable


----------



## larry Strong

Can't find what his awards are however here goes:

Master Corporal Paul Franklin .


----------



## redleafjumper

The person in question performed his service after he retired from the CF at his job.  The incident was pre 1996.


----------



## Shec

Wasn't it retired officer Rene Jalbert who, as Sgt. at Arms of the Quebec Legislature,  talked deranged gunman  and ex-Cpl. Denis Lortie out of  using the legislative chamber as a mechanical target range with his stolen  SMG in 1984?


----------



## redleafjumper

Yes, Major Jalbert won the CV and the Gold Lifesaving medal from the order of St. John for his cool defusing of the dangerous situation at the Quebec National Assembly.


----------



## exspy

Congratulations Shec, well played.

If you have a question to play, please throw it in.  In the meantime, here is mine:  In the context of the Canadian Airborne Regiment, who, what, when and where was 4 Commando?

Bonus Points:  Who was it's Commander?

Dan.


----------



## geo

> http://www.airborneassociation.com/cgi/history-histoire/history.php
> 
> After being in Petawawa for one year, in June 1978, the Regiment underwent a reorganization. The two existing airborne commandos were reduced in size and a third, 3 Airborne Commando, was formed.  At that point the Canadian Airborne Regiment was composed of five separate units.
> 
> The infantry element was composed of three airborne rifle commandos,
> combat service support was provided by the Airborne Service Commando and
> to exercise command and control, the Regiment had an Airborne Headquarters and Signal Squadron.
> The total strength of the Regiment in peace time was approximately 750 all ranks.




combat service support was provided by the Airborne Service Commando = 4 Commando?


----------



## exspy

Geo,

Close to the correct time period.  Good guess but no cigar, I'm afraid.

Dan.


----------



## JBoyd

Hmm what I know about 4 Commando is this,

A British Army Regiment, Formed July 1940, Disbanded March 1946, Best known for D-Day and the Dieppe Raid

However I do not know the connection to the Canadian Airborne Regiment. Or who their Commander was, I was under the impression that either Churchill himself was their commander, or they received a few different commanders during the years due to re-organizations, but perhaps Lieutenant-General Alan Bourne? or even The Lord Lovat?


----------



## geo

JB... The Brittish 4 Commando of WW2 has nothing to do with this question.  As exspy has stated.... late '70s timeframe.
Canadian Airborne Regiment


----------



## JBoyd

geo said:
			
		

> JB... The Brittish 4 Commando of WW2 has nothing to do with this question.  As exspy has stated.... late '70s timeframe.
> Canadian Airborne Regiment



Ahh, my bad. The only 'Commando's I know of with relation to the CAR is the 3 Commando units, I will have to do some further searching then.


----------



## geo

Refer to my post no 2485
the CAR had a number of commandos...
1 CDO  (Para Coy from R22R)
2 CDO (Para Coy from RCR PPCLI)
3 CDO (Para Coy from PPCLI RCR)
CSS Commando
HQ & Sigs Squadron

There was, at one time an Artillery element & an Engineer element to the Regiment
AKA 1st Airborne Field Battery and the 1st Airborne Field Squadron.  These two sub units were subsequently struck from the Regt.  Artillery & Engineer support were subsequently provided by 2 RCHA & 2 CER - all out of Petawawa.


----------



## JBoyd

After further reading, If 4 Commando was not the Service Commando's as exspy had said, perhaps the Airborne Field Engineer Sqn? or even the Airborne Service Support Unit, after its creation due to the amalgamation of the Airborne Service Company and the Field Service's Support Unit


----------



## bilton090

JBoyd said:
			
		

> After further reading, If 4 Commando was not the Service Commando's as exspy had guessed, perhaps the Airborne Field Engineer Sqn? or even the Airborne Service Support Unit, after its creation due to the amalgamation of the Airborne Service Company and the Field Service's Support Unit


        

       There was no 4 commando, there was a Airborne Engineer Sqn, Airborne Battery, Airborne Service Support/ Tpt,Airborne Mp"s, full service support.
             NO 4TH COMMANDO


----------



## JBoyd

bilton090 said:
			
		

> There was no 4 commando, there was a Airborne Engineer Sqn, Airborne Battery, Airborne Service Support/ Tpt,Airborne Mp"s, full service support.
> NO 4TH COMMANDO



Yes we have gathered that there was no actual 4 Commando unit, however exspy asked specifically about 4 Commando in context of the CAR, so are you saying he asked a question to which there is no answer?


----------



## 3rd Herd

exspy said:
			
		

> Congratulations Shec, well played.
> 
> If you have a question to play, please throw it in.  In the meantime, here is mine:  In the context of the Canadian Airborne Regiment, who, what, when and where was 4 Commando?
> 
> Bonus Points:  Who was it's Commander?
> 
> Dan.



Dan,
are you thinking of the two reserve units. Westies and QORC ?


----------



## exspy

Gentlemen,

Let's see, how do I refine the question for you without giving it away.  You are already aware of the time frame, so let me provide the following:  It was organized during an international event, the Commando was manned by CAR members (who said anything about infantry?) and has nothing to do with the Reserves or a Reserve augmentation.

Dan.


----------



## Old Sweat

At the risk of sidetracking the question, the Canadian Airborne Regiment was originally stood up with two commandos, 1 and 2. The first was francophone, but had an English company, while the second was anglophone. Following the restructuring and move of 4 CMBG in 1970, the "battle group" as it was termed had two battalions in CFE, 1 R22eR and 3 Mechanized Commando.

When the airborne regiment moved to Petawawa in the late 1970's it was reorganized into a three commando organization. At about the same time, 3 Mechanized Commando was retitled 3 RCR. At some stage 3 RCR and 2 PPCLI switched stations then switched back again.

I am not clear on the machinations as it was a long time ago, but essentially the army lost an infantry battalion, a field battery and an engineer squadron (?) in the move of the airborne to Petawawa. It's funny how all our reorganizations to increase our efficiency end up costing us combat arms units.


----------



## bilton090

JBoyd said:
			
		

> Yes we have gathered that there was no actual 4 Commando unit, however exspy asked specifically about 4 Commando in context of the CAR, so are you saying he asked a question to which there is no answer?




         Was in the CAR at the time


----------



## old medic

Shot in the dark here:

Would we be looking for something that only existed as a reaction force for the 1976 Montreal Olympics ?


----------



## JBoyd

old medic said:
			
		

> Shot in the dark here:
> 
> Would we be looking for something that only existed as a reaction force for the 1976 Montreal Olympics ?



I think you are on the right track, if not the 76 olympics, maybe the october crisis in 70É

if not on home soil, maybe the overseas tour of cyprusÉ


----------



## exspy

Old Medic,

I can't get anything past you.  You have the 'when' (1976) and the 'where' (Montreal Olympics).  I suppose reaction force is close, but it had a specific name (in answer to the 'what').  What hasn't been answered yet is the 'who'.  There is also a 'why' to all of this as well.

Old Sweat,

You're right.  The only reason one of the infantry battalions in Germany was called a Commando was due to; 1) the reduction in 1970 of the infantry strength from 11 to 10 battalions, and 2) the need for an English unit in Germany that could be manned by troops from both the RCR and the PPCLI.  In 1977 the infantry strength was cut again to 9 battalions, so good-bye 3 Commando.  The movement of the CAR from Edmonton to Petawawa in July 1977 saw the disbanding of 1 Airborne Battery and 1 Airborne Engineer Squadron.  160 parachute positions the Army never got back.

Dan.


----------



## JBoyd

what - as counter terrorism support? or better perhaps you are looking for OP Gamescan where they were designated Task Force III? why - because of the black september seizure and the murder of israeli athletes in munich during the 1972 olympic games? who - the Airborne Int Section?

and for bonus would the commander have been Colonel Lessard?


----------



## exspy

JBoyd,

You've got the 'what'.  During Op Gamescan the CAR (or parts of it, that's part of 'why') was designated Task Force III.  It was the Gamescan reaction force and located at CMR in St Jean.

Colonel Lessard was the Commander of the CAR but wasn't the CO of 4 Commando.

Just the 'why' (as in why was there a 4 Commando) and the 'who' (as in who comprised it) remain.

Dan.


----------



## JBoyd

1RCR, 2RCR, 3RCR, 408 THS, 2CMBG?

Something on the lines of 16000 troops were involved


----------



## exspy

Everyone,

With 48 hours and no further activity on this question it's time to provide the full answer.  The CAR was deployed to Quebec during Op Gamescan, the CF contribution to the 1976 Montreal Olympics.  At the time CAR had only two commandoes, the airborne battery, the airborne field squadron, a support unit and the headquarters and signal squadron.  For the deployment 1er Commando was opcon'd to 3 R22eR in Montreal who were tasked with protecting the Olympic participants while they were traveling on site.  3 R22eR was a part of Task Force 1 under Brig-Gen Rene Gutknecht.

The remainder of the regiment was designated Task Force 3 and was tasked as the Commander's Reserve.  They were located at CMR in St Jean.  Because the regiment was short half of its infantry, the battery and the field squadron (together with 2 Commando's reconnaissance platoon) were combined to form another infantry unit, 4 Commando, in May.  The commanding officer of the battery, Major DB Walton, was appointed CO of 4 Commando.  In the middle of the Olympics in late July a change of command saw Major EB Beno take over.  After the end of the games the 'commando' was disbanded and the units involved returned to their regular duties.

I got the details on 4 Commando from two sources.  One was Sentinel magazine's special Olympic issue (1977/1) and the second is a book called 'Fragments of 1 Airborne Battery (RCA) The Canadian Airborne Regiment' which was a history of the battery published shortly after its disbandment in 1977.

OK, time for the next question.  I think the candidates for it are either Shec, Old Medic or JBoyd.  Who's got the question?

Dan.


----------



## JBoyd

Well asking a direct question would give away the answer so..


Who is this Canadian, and what major part of history did he play.


Bonus: What rank did he hold at the time.


----------



## geo

Hmmm

Lt Robert Hampton Gray, VC, DSC, RCNVR


----------



## Koenigsegg

Arthur Roy Brown.  World War 1 ace.
Is believed to have shot down the Red Baron, rank at the time was Captain, no?


----------



## exspy

Koenigsegg,

You bugger!  Just as I was about to post!

QUOTE:
Captain Arthur Roy Brown DSC and bar RNAS (23 December 1893 – 9 March 1944) was a Canadian World War I flying ace. The Royal Air Force officially credited Brown with shooting down Manfred von Richthofen, the "Red Baron", although later research has shown that Brown could not have fired the bullet that caused the death of Von Richthofen.
UNQUOTE.

The pride of Carleton Place, Ontario.  The photo shows Brown in RAF uniform after the merger of the RNAS and the RFC.

Dan.

PS:  It does look like the Australians shot von Richtofen down after all.... Damn!


----------



## Koenigsegg

Darn those Australians and taking all our glory!   ;D

My turn for a question?
Because of my lack of imagination...

Which pilot was the younger of the pair who formed (it was a partnership) the very short lived company that flew passengers and freight between Toronto and Muskoka using 3 surplus planes?


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

just a guess without looking anything up

William Barker VC ?


----------



## Koenigsegg

Yes indeedly.  You are correctamundo.

I didn't really have a question to ask, so that came out.


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

Don't worry I don't really have one right now either
What was the real purpose of the voyage of the St. Roch in 1940-42?


----------



## larry Strong

_"....To demonstrated Canadian sovereignty in the Arctic during the difficult wartime years, and extended Canadian control over its vast northern territories...."_

http://www.hnsa.org/ships/stroch.htm


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

Partly true, but I was looking for the more covert aspect of the trip
Hint: It is related tangentially to beer


----------



## JBoyd

A government plan to occupy and defend Greenland, due to the cryolite mine on the island


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

And we have a winner.
Ironically enough, by the time the St. Roch got to Halifax, the Americans were in the war and assumed the responsibility for defending Greenland.


----------



## JBoyd

K my turn... hmm 

Weiße Rose is attributed to two things during WWII, what are these two things. 

Also for one of them, explain the misrepresentation, and the relation to Coventry


----------



## geo

The White Rose...

A group on Munich university students professed non-violent resistance - better known for it's anonymous leaflet campaign between June 1942 and February 1943.  It called for active opposition to Adolf Hitler's regime.  The six core members of the group were arrested by the Gestapo, convicted and executed by beheading in 1943. 

The text of their sixth leaflet was smuggled out of Germany and into England after their death.  In July 1943 copies of it were dropped over Germany by Allied planes.


----------



## JBoyd

geo said:
			
		

> The White Rose...
> 
> A group on Munich university students professed non-violent resistance - better known for it's anonymous leaflet campaign between June 1942 and February 1943.  It called for active opposition to Adolf Hitler's regime.  The six core members of the group were arrested by the Gestapo, convicted and executed by beheading in 1943.
> 
> The text of their sixth leaflet was smuggled out of Germany and into England after their death.  In July 1943 copies of it were dropped over Germany by Allied planes.



Thats One attributation, however there is another.


----------



## geo

I figured the 6th leaflet was the 2nd and misrepresentation............guess not


----------



## JBoyd

geo said:
			
		

> I figured the 6th leaflet was the 2nd and misrepresentation............guess not



no the misreprensentation is of the second part of the question (which is not related to the first part which you answered sucessfully)


----------



## JBoyd

Well since its been a few days and no one has ventured a guess as to the second part of the question, I shall provide another hint.

The misrepresentation is that the germans had thought it was a white rose when it fact it was a white lily


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

Seems like the previous question has been "abandoned" so claiming salvage let me provide a new one

Been reading/listening to the O'Brian Aubrey/Maturin novels which prompted the following question:

What was the last time prize money was paid out?
I have an answer for the US Navy but I am more curious as the last time it was paid out for an action of the Royal Navy and if it was ever paid out for an action of the Royal Canadian Navy or its antecedents.


----------



## geo

> During the Great War this was the distribution of shares;
> 
> First Class.-Captain in Command. 80 Shares
> 
> Second Class.-Captain not in Command, and Officers of equivalent Rank, and Commander in Command or serving as Second in Command in a Ship commanded by a Captain. 40 Shares
> 
> Third Class.- Commander not in Command, and Officers of equivalent Rank, and Lieutenant-Commander in Command, or serving as Second in Command in a Ship commanded by a Captain. 30 Shares
> 
> Fourth Class.- Lieutenant-Commander not in Command, and Officers of equivalent Rank, and Lieutenant in Command, or serving as Second in Command in a Ship commanded by a Captain. 25 Shares
> 
> Fifth Class.- Lieutenant not in Command, and Officers of equivalent Rank, and Sub-Lieutenant, Mate, or Commissioned Warrant Officer, in Command. 20 Shares
> 
> Sixth Class.-Sub-Lieutenant not. In Command, Mate, Commissioned Warrant Officer, and Officers of equivalent Rank, Warrant Officer, R.N., or R.N.R., in Command. 15 Shares
> 
> Seventh Class.-Warrant Officer, R.N., and equivalent Ranks, and Royal Marine Gunner. 12 Shares
> 
> Eighth Class – Midshipman, Clerk, Chief Petty Officer, Warrant Officer of Marines, Staff and Colour Sergeant of Marines, and equivalent Ranks and Ratings. 10 Shares
> 
> Ninth Class.-Naval Cadet, Assistant Clerk, Petty Officer, Petty Officer 1st Class (O.S.), Sergeant of Marines, and equivalent Ranks and Ratings. 8 Shares
> 
> Tenth Class.-Petty Officer 2nd Class (O.S.), Leading Seaman, Corporal and Bombardier of Marines, and equivalent Ranks and Ratings. 6 Shares
> Eleventh Class. – Able Seaman, Private Gunner and Bugler of Marines (after training), Second Head Krooman, Second Tindal, and equivalent Ranks and Ratings. 5 Share
> 
> Twelfth Class.-Ordinary Seaman, Private, Gunner and Bugler of Marines (before completion of training), and equivalent Ranks and Ratings; Native Seamen and Stokers. 3 Shares
> 
> Thirteenth Class.-Supernumeraries (except as provided in paragraph 6) and Canteen Attendants. 2 Shares
> 
> Fourteenth Class – Boys. 1 Share




Believe the last distribution for a War Prize went to the Capt & crew of the HMAS Sydney afet having disposed of SMS Emden - the light cruiser that terrorized allied shipping in the Indian ocean.


----------



## FascistLibertarian

What was the last battle in which a British formation fought wearing kilts?


----------



## JBoyd

due to the fact that my question was abandoned I shall provide the missing answer.

The secondary reference to White Rose in WWII was Lydia Litvyak - the White Lily of Stalingrad.  She had a white lily painted on the side of her aircraft and the germans mistook it for a white rose. There was also a play about her titled 'White Rose' that was performed once at the Belgrade Studio Theatre in Coventry


----------



## Lumber

FascistLibertarian said:
			
		

> What was the last battle in which a British formation fought wearing kilts?



The Battle of Dunkirk?


----------



## geo

NCdt Lumber said:
			
		

> The Battle of Dunkirk?



Nope, seen pictures of El Alamein with Highlanders in kilts moving foreward...


----------



## chrisf

geo said:
			
		

> Nope, seen pictures of El Alamein with Highlanders in kilts moving foreward...



Then Wikipedia is wrong http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_kilt (Near the bottom of the page. And I'd also like to note that I'm not trying to be confrontational here. It doesn't surprise me at all that wikipedia is wrong. Perhaps once the answer is correctly determined somone would care to edit the page?)


----------



## geo

wikipedia wrong? really?

Note, that Dunkirk could be the last large scale use of the kilt & that the few individuals I saw in a pic @ El Alamein might be an aberation.....


----------



## Lumber

geo said:
			
		

> wikipedia wrong? really?
> 
> Note, that Dunkirk could be the last large scale use of the kilt & that the few individuals I saw in a pic @ El Alamein might be an aberation.....



From my searching, at El Alamein it seemed like only the pipers were wearing the kilt, and not any sort of large formation in combat.


----------



## time expired

Battle of Gordie's Bar Sennelager,late 60s between believe 2nd.Bn.Black Watch
(Brit.) and R22er.Results were somewhat obscured by the intervention of
of an extremely unruly mixed group of RMP Redcaps,and Can.Provost Corps.
Ah the memories of a Cold War warrior.
                                            Regards.
 PS The Watch guy must have been on a parade as they were all wearing
kilts,not usual at the All Arms Training Center.


----------



## chrisf

geo said:
			
		

> wikipedia wrong? really?



I know, isn't it shocking?


----------



## exspy

I think the main clue word in this question is 'formation', you know, brigade or larger.

So, what was the last battle in which a British Army 'brigade' (or larger) last wore kilts?

I'm thinking that would make it a Highland Brigade either during the South African War or early in The Great War, ie 1914 or 1915.

Dan.


----------



## geo

Highlanders did wear their kilts through the trench warfare of WW1.
I have photos of Cdn Highlanders going over the top in 17/18 wearing their kilts...... Highalnd heavy Brigades in the CEF
I am positive the Impreial highland regiments wore them as well.  Though I would have to research to validate....


----------



## Danjanou

Imperial and Canadian Highlanders did wear Kilts as part of their normal battle uniform in World War 1. Other Dominion units would have worm them too, although I think only South Africa had “Highland” or “Scottish” Battalions.

If we’re looking for battalion sized actions then the Transvaal Scottish a South African Terriitorial Regiment was mobilized and fought in the 1922 Rand Miners Revolt a rather bloody uprising. I’m sure some Imperial Highland Regiments would also have seen action in India on the NW Frontier in the 1920s and 1930s. 

Time Expire as long as we’re discussing ahem FIBUA, then I can beat that date. The Seaforth Highlanders of Canada and the Pipes and Drums of the Black Watch  (UK) versus the crew of some Balkan Freighter visiting Vancouver in the Battle of  The Harp and Heather in Gas Town circa 1978-79 if memory serves me.

(edit to correct typos)


----------



## Danjanou

Update:

 I know we've been arguing re the 51st Highland Divison fighting in France in 1940 being the last and I do remember seeing/reading somewhere that some units wore kilts in the delaying actions prior to Dunkirk.  However I know wonder if this was the last action. The Gordons and Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders both had Battalions that fought in Malaya and Singapore in 1941-42 and I think they wore Kilts then too. Off to research via google.


----------



## time expired

OK,Danjanou, you win,those Black Watch guys,you can dress
them up but you can´t take them anywhere.
                                           Regards


----------



## tomahawk6

http://ww2chat.com/forums/news-articles/934-seaforth-highlanders-mural.html



> That's why the Camerons wear the Blue Hackle, in recognition of being the last Highlanders to wear the Kilt (officially) in battle.


----------



## exspy

T6,

Sorry but I have to disagree with you.  I found this on canadiansoldiers.com which had a whole page on just the 'blue hackle'.

QUOTE:
In 1939, the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders of the British Army, like all Highland Regiments in the British Empire, abandoned the kilt as combat dress. The CO of the First Battalion, Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders, was determined that with the kilt gone, his unit should still be distinctively dressed. To do so, he ordered the white hackle normally worn with the tropical helmet to be worn on the balmoral.

King George V inspected the battalion on 5 Dec 1939, and the King agreed to the suggestion of wearing the hackle on the balmoral, but suggested that Royal Blue was more appropriate. Eight hundred hackles were made up and the battalion wore them at Arras for the first time on 11 Feb 1940. Incidentally, the battalion also continued to wear the kilt, and were the last regiment to wear it in action, going all the way through Dunkirk so clad.

The blue hackle was discontinued until it could be approved by the War Office, which only did so in 1951.
UNQUOTE.

According to this the Cameron's had the blue hackle 4 months prior to Dunkirk.

I also think that while the Cameron's are allegedly the last 'unit' to wear the kilt in battle, the original question did ask for the last 'formation' to do so.  We should be looking for the last field brigade to have done this.

Dan.


----------



## FascistLibertarian

Yeah......
In the Mircle of Dunkirk Walter Lord says the last time they were used was during the rearguard action....
However you guys seem to have examples after that, so my face is a bit red now, asking a question I didnt have the apparent right answer to
LOL


----------



## Spr.Earl

Who was the U.S. Jr.N.C.O. who got 3 U.S. General's dismissed in WWII?


----------



## foresterab

Spr. Earl...

I'm stumped.  Anyone else got an idea?


----------



## Spr.Earl

Joe Lewis the Boxer,when he joined his Unit in England there were segregation order's posted preventing black U.S. Armed Force's from pub's to village's to town's under said Genaral's area's of command which went above and beyond U.S. segregation at the time and yet there was no segregation in England,Scotland or Wales since the middle ages.


----------



## foresterab

okay...I was way off.  I was guessing it was a female officer who might have been involved somehow but I didn't even think of the seggregration issue.

Excellent question though


----------



## Yrys

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> there was no segregation in England,Scotland or Wales since the middle ages.



There were segregation ? More then the religious one ?


----------



## Spr.Earl

Yrys said:
			
		

> There were segregation ? More then the religious one ?


There was voluntary segregation due to ones religion depending where you lived,i.e Green or Orange but it was not legislated.


----------



## Yrys

Question about "Question of the Hour" thread.

Can someone ask a question without knowing the answer ? To get the answer ?


----------



## Reccesoldier

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> There was voluntary segregation due to ones religion depending where you lived,i.e Green or Orange but it was not legislated.



Brits were quite segregationist in the Colonies in India and Africa though.


----------



## exspy

Yrys,

Give it a shot.  There's a lot of knowledge on here.  I think you should acknowledge however, that you're looking for the answer when you ask it.

Dan.


----------



## geo

Reccesoldier said:
			
		

> Brits were quite segregationist in the Colonies in India and Africa though.


Absolutely!
Anyone remember the movie Lawrence of Arabia & the reaction of the Brit officers when Lawrence brought in his arab companion into the officers mess.  The movie was fictionalized but, the reaction was true enough.

The Brits weren't too keen on Chinamen, Indians and Egiptians either from what I recall.


----------



## Danjanou

Yrys, fire away. Someone may know it. For the record this one won't count for turn purposes.  Rule is the first to get the right answer poses the next question.


----------



## 3rd Herd

Since things seem to have slowed a little, I thought I would throw this out.

"There sure were a lot of strangers in hell this morning" stated a Patricia Pte in an interview following his awarding of the Military Medal. Who was this private ? What were his deeds that saw him get the MM ?

Bonus:

Name of reporter and paper this interview was featured in.


----------



## Spr.Earl

geo said:
			
		

> Absolutely!
> Anyone remember the movie Lawrence of Arabia & the reaction of the Brit officers when Lawrence brought in his arab companion into the officers mess.  The movie was fictionalized but, the reaction was true enough.
> 
> The Brits weren't too keen on Chinamen, Indians and Egiptians either from what I recall.



Ergo Geo what does the expression wog mean in the true sense?


----------



## geo

British word "wog" is a holdover from the days of the Empire and a disparaging term for a non-European, especially someone from India, an Arab, or any other Asian. The origin is not known for certain, but it is widely thought to be a clipping of the word golliwog, the name of a black-faced doll in Bertha Upton’s 1895 book The Adventures of Two Dutch Dolls and a Golliwog: 

Then all look round, as well they may
To see a horrid sight!
The blackest gnome
Stands there alone,
They scatter in their fright. 

With kindly smile he nearer draws;
Begs them to feel no fear.
“What is your name?”
Cries Sarah Jane;
“The ‘Golliwogg’ my dear.”

By 1907, Golliwog was being used adjectivally to refer to native peoples overseas. From the Westminster Gazette of 28 May: 

A clever golliwogg dance received the enthusiastic applause it deserved.

James Joyce’s Ulysses of 1922 has this: 

Madcap Ciss with her golliwog curls.

And it also has this use of wogger: 

She called him wogger.

And 

She may have noticed her wogger people were always going away.

By 1929, the clipping to wog was complete. From Frank C. Bowen’s Sea Slang of that year: 

Wogs, lower class Babu shipping clerks on the Indian coast.

Use of wog to mean any non-Englishman can also be found; the wogs begin at Calais is a common catchphrase. More recently, wog has even been used to refer to anyone from outside the greater London area. 

The word is often mistakenly thought to be an acronym. What the acronym supposedly stands for, however, varies in the telling: 

Westernized Oriental Gentleman 
Worthy Oriental Gentleman 
Wily Oriental Gentleman 
Wonderful Oriental Gentleman 
Working On Government Service 
This last comes with a legend that wogs was stenciled on the shirts of workmen along the Suez Canal. The story and the acronymic origin, however, are false.


----------



## Spr.Earl

LOL I forgot about Gollywog's.

 As a kid in England we all had a gollywog doll's and Robison's Jam jar's had a gollywog on them but the true sence was some one from the Colonies who was educated meaning Western Oriental Gentlman but through time's and people's racism the term ended up being a derogatory term.

Nick


----------



## Spr.Earl

Which Battle Ship in WWII were her main gun turret's out weighed a destroyer?


----------



## geo

Which WW2 battleship had gun turrets that were heavier than a destroyer?

 IJN Yamato & Musashi  9 X 460mm (18.1in )


----------



## Spr.Earl

During the Boer War,in one Battle 3 men were present all 3 in time became the leader's of their repective country's.
What was the Battle and who were the men?


----------



## Danjanou

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> During the Boer War,in one Battle 3 men were present all 3 in time became the leader's of their repective country's.
> What was the Battle and who were the men?



Battle of Spion Kop Jan 22-24, 1900

Louis Botha 1ST PM of South Africa present as a Boer Commander in Chief Leader/ADC

Jan Christiaan Smuts 2nd PM of South Africa present as a Boer Commando Leader

Winston Churchill PM of Great Britain present as a journalist and unofficial ADC

Ghandi was also present as a stretcher bearer


----------



## Spr.Earl

Trust you bollock's I was hoping for some one else to reply.


----------



## Danjanou

So old buddy is it true you were there too, setting up the water purification site? 8)


----------



## Rodahn

Hey; Nick isn't quite that old.... Well okay, maybe he is, but if that's the case then I was probably there with him.... ;D


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## Spr.Earl

What year were expanding bullit's outlawed under the Laws of War?


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## PMedMoe

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> What year were expanding bullit's outlawed under the Laws of War?



1899?


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## 3rd Herd

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> Acceptable effort Rhibwolf, a definite 'A' for effort.
> 
> 
> "During this period of anxiety Victoria became the scene of a movie, Commandos Strike at Dawn.
> 
> On July 21 a Hollywood army of actors,actresses, techicans, cameramen, script writers and others required to produce the million dollar movie arrivied here. The stars were Paul Munte(?), Morris Oberon,, with Lillian Gish and Robert Cote in supportting roles. John Farrow was the director.
> 
> The Canadian forces lent every support to the movie, even to permitting the former luxury steamer Prince Henry, then an auxiliary cruiser, to participate in the invasion scenes staged in Saanich inlet.
> 
> The Canadian Scottish  and the Royal Rifles  battalions, which had been under going commando training here, fitted into the picture, which was based in Norway and a Norwegian village costing 30,000 was constructed. The action scenes were very realistic and when the film was released it was an instant success."
> 
> Source:
> 
> Wills, Archie. "Victorians Wore Gas Masks When Japs Came Calling". Victoria, The Daily Colonist, 1959. pg 12.



The RCAF contribution to the movie: 

RCAF Station Patricia Bay, BC 1942 
Two RCAF Westland Lysanders painted to look like Lufwaffe aircraft for the movie, Commandos Strike at Dawn. (http://www.airmuseum.ca/mag/0609.html)


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## Spr.Earl

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> 1899?



Correct 


                                                            A Brief History of the Laws of War



Attempts to put limits on wartime behavior have been around since the beginning of recorded history and there have been numerous attempts to codify the rules of appropriate military conduct.

In the sixth century BCE, Chinese warrior Sun Tzu suggested putting limits on the way that wars were conducted.

Around 200 BCE, the notion of war crimes as such appeared in the Hindu code of Manu.

In 1305, the Scottish national hero Sir William Wallace was tried for the wartime murder of civilians.

Hugo Grotius wrote "On the Law of War and Peace" in 1625, focusing on the humanitarian treatment of civilians.

In 1865, Confederate officer Henry Wirz was executed for murdering Federal prisoners of war at the Andersonville prisoner of war camp. He was only one of several people who were tried for similar offenses.

In fact, it's been the past century and a half that has really seen a qualitative jump in the degree to which constraints have been placed on warring parties, and only this century that an international body has been formed to police the nations of the world.

The first Geneva Convention was signed in 1864 to protect the sick and wounded in war time. This first Geneva Convention was inspired by Henri Dunant, founder of the Red Cross. Ever since then, the Red Cross has played an integral part in the drafting and enforcement of the Geneva Conventions.

These included the 1899 treaties, concerning asphyxiating gases and expanding bullets. In 1907, 13 separate treaties were signed, followed in 1925 by the Geneva Gas Protocol, which prohibited the use of poison gas and the practice of bacteriological warfare.

In 1929, two more Geneva Conventions dealt with the treatment of the wounded and prisoners of war. In 1949, four Geneva Conventions extended protections to those shipwrecked at sea and to civilians. 

The Hague Convention on the Protection of Cultural Property was signed in 1954, the United Nations Convention on Military or Any Other Hostile Use of Environmental Techniques followed in 1977, together with two Additional Protocols to the Geneva Conventions of 1949, extending their protections to civil wars.

There is no one "Geneva Convention." Like any other body of law, the laws of war have been assembled piecemeal, and are, in fact, still under construction.

It is impossible to produce a complete and up-to-date list of war crimes. Even today, weapon systems such as land mines are being debated at the highest levels of international policy.

What follows is a basic reference to the most common protections and prohibitions, as provided for in the four 1949 Geneva Conventions and the two 1977 protocols.

Copyright © 2003 Maria Trombly. All rights reserved.

I don't think Maria would mind my cutting and pasting here excellant article here. 
To read all the Convention's signed I have posted the link below.



http://www.genevaconventions.org/


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## Cloud Cover

BUMP!!!

Name all of the aircraft carriers that were sunk solely by surface naval gunfire  [aka surface ship gunfire] in WW2.

- if a carrier was torpedoed by a submarine and finished off by surface ship gunfire, that does not count.
- if a carrier was torpedoed or bombed by an aircraft and finished off by surface ship gunfire, that does not count.  
- if a carrier was torpedoed by a surface combatant, that does not count.  


Cheers


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## stukirkpatrick

I found 2 - HMS Glorious, sunk by Scharnhorst and Gneisenau during the evacuation from Norway on June 8th, 1940, and USS Gambier Bay, sunk on October 25th, 1944 by the Japanese Navy during the battle off Samar.


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## Cloud Cover

Sierra: you are correct!


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## stukirkpatrick

What is the origin of the British officer rank "pips", and what is the backstory of the related organization?


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## geo

From 1880 until 1902, a Captain had just two stars and a Lieutenant one star. From 1871, the rank of Ensign (Cornet in cavalry regiments) was replaced with the rank of Second Lieutenant, which had no insignia. The 1902 change gave the latter a single star and the insignia of Lieutenants and Captains were increased to two and three stars. In addition to the shoulder badges, officers' ranks were also reflected in the amount and pattern of gold lace worn on the cuffs of the full-dress tunic

Backstory....

The star or 'pip' is that of the Order of the Bath, except in the Household regiments.  The Life Guards, Blues and Royals, Grenadier Guards, Coldstream Guards and Welsh Guards use the star of the Order of the Garter, the Scots Guards that of the Order of the Thistle, and the Irish Guards that of the Order of St Patrick. The Crown has varied in the past, with the King's Imperial Crown being used from 1910 until it was replaced by the St Edward's Crown from the coronation of Elizabeth II in 1953.


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## stukirkpatrick

Works for me!


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## geo

Back at work.... open invite  for a new question.


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## redleafjumper

What was the license plate number of Heinrich Himmler's staff car?


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## mariomike

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> What was the license plate number of Heinrich Himmler's staff car?



SS-1


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## redleafjumper

That is correct - there is a photo of the Reichsfuerher in his car with license SS-1 in a recent issue of Der Spiegel.

Cheers,


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## geo

Nazi vanity plaes.... who woulda thought.
However, any soldier who saw those plates coming his way knew who he was dealing with - before the car even had a chance to stop.


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## mariomike

geo said:
			
		

> Nazi vanity plaes.... who woulda thought.
> However, any soldier who saw those plates coming his way knew who he was dealing with - before the car even had a chance to stop.



Likely any traffic or parking tickets would be "taken care of".
Incidentally, I didn't know the answer to that question. I "Googled" it.


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## redleafjumper

Who was the admiral executed on the deck of a ship for failing to do his duty to the utmost?


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## mariomike

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Who was the admiral executed on the deck of a ship for failing to do his duty to the utmost?



Admiral Byng. 
Executed by firing squad on the deck of HMS Monarch on the 14 March, 1757.
Google is my friend. ;D


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## exspy

Vice-Admiral Sir John Byng was executed by firing squad aboard HMS Monarch in Portsmouth on March 14th, 1757.

Byng was judged to have "failed to do his utmost" during the naval Battle of Minorca on May 20th, 1756.







From his execution came one of the most famous phrases in military history:

Byng's execution was satirized by Voltaire in his novel Candide. In Portsmouth, Candide witnesses the execution of an officer by firing squad; and is told that "in this country, it is wise to kill an admiral from time to time to encourage the others" (Dans ce pays-ci, il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un amiral pour encourager les autres)."

Dan


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## redleafjumper

Full points - Admiral of the Blue John Byng was the tragic figure executed for politics.

Someone else want a go?

Cheers,


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## exspy

In keeping with a previous question about vanity licence plates the question is; who had the staff car with the plate SS 3?

Dan


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## mariomike

exspy said:
			
		

> In keeping with a previous question about vanity licence plates the question is; who had the staff car with the plate SS 3?
> 
> Dan



Reinhard Heydrich


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## exspy

Correct, it was Heydrich.  It was the licence plate on the vehicle he was riding in when he was attacked by SOE trained Czech soldiers.

I am wondering who had the plate SS 2?

The next question is over to you, MM.

Dan


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## mariomike

When was the first time heavy strategic bombers were employed in a tactical close support role?


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## redleafjumper

Was it the Battle of Neuve Chappel in March of 1915?  As for SS-2 my best guess is that it was Chief of the Gestapo Heinrich Muller.

Cheers,


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## mariomike

I believe it was Bomber Command's attack of the Normandy battle area on the evening of 7 July 1944. 
2,276 tons of bombs were dropped in a 1,000-yard-wide rectangle with virtually no spill over.  The conclusion was that bomber crews who were well briefed could provide accurate close support.


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## mariomike

I searched. I do not believe this question has been asked.
What was the worst peacetime accident in the history of Maritime Command or the RCN?


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## Nfld Sapper

mariomike said:
			
		

> I searched. I do not believe this question has been asked.
> What was the worst peacetime accident in the history of Maritime Command or the RCN?



On 23 October 1969 HMCS Kootenay suffered the worst peacetime accident in the history of Maritime Command (MARCOM) or the RCN when one of her gearboxes exploded. The explosion and the ensuing fire killed 9 crew members and injured at least 8 others.


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## mariomike

Who said this?
"It drives one mad to think some Canadian boor, who probably can't even find Europe on the globe, flies here from a country glutted with natural resources to bombard a continent with a crowded population."


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## Shec

Joseph Goebbels


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