# Combined  MESSES



## E31 (2 Feb 2005)

Presently serving in Kabul where we share a mess with the Officers. I have 20 years in , am 41 and do not wish to spend my time relaxing listening to some 20something Officer whine about how rough HIS FIRST TOUR is. So what ever happened to "the only mess you earn your way in" !!! Thanks 23 , out.


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## SeaKingTacco (2 Feb 2005)

Concur.   I have 19 years in and I have little desire to sit around all night listening to country music and whinning about ex-wives...   

No seriously- I'm not a huge fan of combined messing for any reason.   Each rank level has a different culture and each rank level needs someplace to blow off steam, bitch, or just watch TV without overly worrying about what either the troops or your boss might think.

Good luck in Kabul, 23.


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## E31 (2 Feb 2005)

Even some of us 40 something guys don't like CW , and yes some of us are still married ( even after 6 tours overseas) , but you're right all Troops (no matter what rank) deserve a traditional mess. One of the few traditions we have left.  :gunner:


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## pbi (2 Feb 2005)

I agree also. (haven't we already debated this on another thread, back before Christmas?) The rank groups should be given separate places to socialize. Unfortunately, the combined mess has become increasingly common on operations, as has the combined dining facility in garrison. I guess somebody has decided that the cultural needs of the Army (because this is largely an Army concern...) are less important than saving money on infrastructure.

Cheers.


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## Big Bad John (2 Feb 2005)

1) In the field, I prefer to mess with my "family" rather than with the other Officers.

2) Unfortunately we all have to put up with young Subalterns.

3) Extingencies(sp?) of the field lads.


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## X Royal (2 Feb 2005)

Agreed combined messes are a bean counters way of saving money. All three messes should   be on there own. Even combined dining facilities are  not proper. Feed everyone the same but in different places. The only acceptions to the above are in the field or in very small dets.   In larger bases like Petawawa   I see   no need to feed the three groups in the same hall.


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## pbi (2 Feb 2005)

Big Bad John: I was using the term "Mess" in its booze-drinking sense, and "dining facility" in its garrison sense. I understand eating together when you are in the field and eating IMPs or out of a flying kitchen. Cheers


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## 043 (2 Feb 2005)

My 2 Cents,

Now I know you guys are a sensitive bunch here however, I disagree with Combined Messes, whether it be for eating or for drinking. It goes along with troops hanging with troops, NCO's hanging with NCO's, and Offr's hanging with Offr's. Familiarity breeds contempt and that is a fact. People say " well we can do it and still be professional at work" but in reality, other soldiers see it and that causes problems.

And besides, especially overseas, who wants to drink and eat with people that you are stuck with 24/7?


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## Calculator Jockey (2 Feb 2005)

The term "messes" mean drinking establishments and not the kitchens and dining halls in my response below.

My take on combined messes are that they are final nail into the Esprit de Corps of the CF. As a former PMC of a Jr Ranks' Mess, I saw other ranks come into our mess as guests; for the most part most of them understood they were guests and knew when to leave. Unfortunately you get those that don't know where the line is drawn and go over it. I in my history have had two senior NCOs suspended from entering the Jr Ranks' because they over stepped their boundaries. 

I am against any combined mess. My mess is my "get away from the office and home" a "Free Zone" in essence. Somewhere where I can vent my frustrations about my supervisors, senior leadership, the "system" or problems at home and not have to worry about repercussions against me in the workplace.

If you have a combined mess it is no longer a get away; fine yes there are three separate areas for the Jrs, NCOs, and Officers and then a general area for all to hang out if they so desire. But then you have lost the tradition and privacy of each mess. One always wonders if the walls have ears or who happens to be passing by the entrance way to the separate areas, etc.

But these are my own opinion after being a Jr Rank for 16 yrs and having done my time as PMC on top of it to see how not only my mess works but also see how the other two conduct themselves. 

As for overseas, I say a definite NO for combined messes. Too much stress over there, one doesn't need to see one's supervisors or subordinates 24/7. The troops need a "Free Zone" where they can release their frustrations and stress.


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## pbi (2 Feb 2005)

In Kabul there is a separate JRC. It is the Officers and WOs/Sgts who are combined. Cheers.


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## Big Bad John (2 Feb 2005)

Big Bad John: I was using the term "Mess" in its booze-drinking sense, and "dining facility" in its garrison sense. I understand eating together when you are in the field and eating IMPs or out of a flying kitchen. Cheers

My mistake!  I know that we supposedly speak the same language, but sometimes I need a dictionary.

IMHO Officers should defer in Wet Mess usage to their Sgt's & WO's.  An officer can always have a drink with a contemporary in his or her Basha.  The sharing of Wet Messes is not a good thing for morale and as has been already noted, is usually thrust upon us by bean counters of the bureaucratic bent.


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## NCRCrow (2 Feb 2005)

A combined mess would never happen in a million years in the Navy.

Snotters in the COXN's Mess and vice versa. (scareeeeee!!!!!!! thought)

The sanctuary of the CPO's Mess to get business done and socialized is such a sacred privilege. That is earned and respected.

It is a Navy tradition. *That will stand*.

We do on occassion have Hangar parties in foreign ports that are open to everyone and a riot. Because everybody understands the rules of engagement.

When I was in Kabul for Roto O, I was pretty surprised to see a combined mess, but with two beer limit, it was pretty tame.

NCR Crow


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## aesop081 (3 Feb 2005)

Quick question for everyone here:

What about the MCpl Rank......When i was still a MCpl and a section comander, i did not have the rank to be in a separate mess from my troops.   I was thus drinking with the same guys i would have to write up at PER time and stuff like that, i therefore had no real place to go to get away from my soldiers and "bitch and complain" out of their earshot. To add to that, when i was an instructor at CFSME , i was sharing a mess with the QL3s i was teaching.......not always a fun situation to be in.

I know in Chilliwack, there was a separate mess for the MCpl......

The reson i am asking ( please dont shoot me) is that at that rank i always felt like i was getting it from both ends of the spectrum, especialy when i was in a Sgt's position.

Am i making any sense........

Thoughts ?


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## Armymedic (3 Feb 2005)

aesop081 said:
			
		

> What about the MCpl Rank......When i was still a MCpl and a section comander, i did not have the rank to be in a separate mess from my troops.  I was thus drinking with the same guys i would have to write up at PER time and stuff like that, i therefore had no real place to go to get away from my soldiers and "***** and complain" out of their earshot. To add to that, when i was an instructor at CFSME , i was sharing a mess with the QL3s i was teaching.......not always a fun situation to be in.



I have to agree with you on that. The positions a MCpl is in can really suck at times, particularly in the mess. But I chalk that up to learning to deal with your friends who are now your subordinates. Thats never an easy line to walk. 

But having MCpl in the Jr ranks brings a level of maturity that it would not have with out them.


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## pbi (3 Feb 2005)

> An officer can always have a drink with a contemporary in his or her Basha.



Sadly, no longer in our Army, at least not on ops. Consumption of fizzy outside the mess itself is verboten.



> When I was in Kabul for Roto O, I was pretty surprised to see a combined mess, but with two beer limit, it was pretty tame.



Then you would have loved the Army a few years ago when the policy was "no booze on ops. period." What is the Navy's policy on ops?



> But having MCpl in the Jr ranks brings a level of maturity that it would not have with out them



When I started Regimental duty in 1983, 3 PPCLI had a MCpls club in the JRC at Work Point Barracks. IIRC these clubs for "Jacks" died out because the MCpls didn't like them. I agree that it is a tricky path for a young NCO to walk: I have seen more than one of them flattening the CO's carpet because they forgot where the line was. Cheers.


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## Big Bad John (3 Feb 2005)

[/An officer can always have a drink with a contemporary in his or her Basha.

Sadly, no longer in our Army, at least not on ops. Consumption of fizzy outside the mess itself is verboten. color]

Officers should be considered adults, I mean even 2Lt's are supposed to be adults.  That was the way it was explained to me when I passed out of the course.  Of course back then we were still dodging the odd wild dinosaur, but the principle still applies in the Forces in the UK.  I mean even on my first posting to Oman, where we weren't allowed alchy in country,  we had our daily medicinal tots.


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## pbi (3 Feb 2005)

> Officers should be considered adults



All soldiers should be considered adults, until they prove otherwise. That's what the QR&Os on Drunkenness are for. However, like most things, you need to understand the full historical perspective. The Canadian Army that I joined as a young Reserve soldier in 1974 was a very hard drinking Army: it would probably have put the Brits in the shade. I know from personal experience that our drinking terrified Americans who came up here. We drank in the field, at lunchtime, and after work on weekdays. Happy Hour meant "get pissed". We also had alot of alcohol related incidents, and a lot of alcoholics (we ran three detox centres) I lived all of this, until the early 90's when we suddenly  (in true military fashion) zoomed to the other extreme and banned booze on ops completely. Of course (as anyone might have guessed) this didn't exactly work either, as troops got hammered as soon as they went on R&R and were constantly getting arrested, in fights with police. Now, "booties" probably take this for granted, but our leadership didn't, so they decided to flex a bit and for the last few years we have had a "two can" rule for all. (I note that BritFor here in Kabul have the same rule: their JRC is called the "Toucan Club" in a sort of pun). Maybe we will be able, one day, to return to relying on good judgement and QR&Os. We'll see. Cheers.


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## Big Bad John (3 Feb 2005)

UK Forces have always had rules on the amount of drinking that you could do, especially in the field.  But having a rule for Officers on where, within the bounds of common sense, they could consume it is very, rare.  If you can trust a man with command, he should be able to use judgement on alcohol consumption.  Notice that I use the word should here.  There are exceptions to every rule.


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## NCRCrow (3 Feb 2005)

Navy:
2 Tins of Beer Per Day at Sea- 6-8 hrs prior to going on watch- 

(Not to sure about the hours prior as I save mine 2 tins per day and make them up on a good run ashore)

In an SDA port area, it may 0 or two beer per day.

Being at sea is hard enough and I treasure my workout and rack time. I could not imagine having a beer in a sea state and I have 12 years of salt under my belt. Getting green thinking about. :dontpanic:

Liked the Bars at Warehouse/KNMB!

Crow


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## a_majoor (4 Feb 2005)

An observation: many messes I have encountered across Canada have been empty, since soldiers have access to "downtown", or have real lives with wives and families after work. The financial viabilitiy of separate messes is questionable under these circumstances.


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## pbi (4 Feb 2005)

a_majoor said:
			
		

> An observation: many messes I have encountered across Canada have been empty, since soldiers have access to "downtown", or have real lives with wives and families after work. The financial viabilitiy of separate messes is questionable under these circumstances.



Sadly, this has been a developing problem for years. I can recall, as Adjt 1PP in the early 1990's, being posted at the door of the Mess to discourage officers from sneaking out of Happy Hour without paying compliments to the CO and PMC. Even then, officers were beginning to employ various excuses to get out of going altogether. When I became PMC of the Home Station Mess in 1995, it was worse. Attendance at functions was often spotty, and we never, ever, got more than 50% attendance at a Mess Meeting. If it wasn't for the Association members, the Mess would have gone under. 

During the same period, we went through a Forces-wide review of the whole businesses of messes: whether we should have them at all, if they should be converted to US-type "clubs", or if people should be required to belong. Fortunately, the Mess system survived more or less intact, but it was a scary period.

The fact of the matter is, IMHO, much as a majoor has identified: people's lifestyles have changed. First of all, drinking (or at least drinking heavily) is no longer very acceptable. Most people in the RegF no longer live on base, and a goodly number commute quite a distance to base. Many people have social circles outside the military (I know I do) and many spouses now have careers with their own social demands. Personally I am fond of the Mess, and I think it can be a great place, but I also feel that it is gradually dying.

Cheers


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## Big Bad John (4 Feb 2005)

In the UK Messing and belonging to and supporting the same is mandatory.


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## pbi (4 Feb 2005)

Big Bad John said:
			
		

> In the UK Messing and belonging to and supporting the same is mandatory.



I served in the same battalion for eight years, under five different COs. I was PMC for the last eighteen months. The key thing to the survival of the Mess is, IMHO, the personality of the CO (and, I might add, "Mrs CO"...) If the CO worked hard to make the Mess a fun place and was a "people person", chances are the Mess did better. If the CO really didn't care, that usually translated into poor attendance and low interest. Unfortunately, to many Canadian officers now, "belonging" does NOT necessarily translate into "supporting".

My wife and I have been part of a mess since 1983. When we came to Winnipeg, where 2 PPCLI was stationed in the last remaining PPCLI mess, we felt that we had come home, even though I was extra-Regimentally employed. We were made to feel part of the Mess, which had a strong and lively life largely because of the personality of the CO. My wife, who had missed PPCLI mess life in our years of ERE, really enjoyed being part of it again. It was very sad for us when we attended the final dinner at Kapyong Barracks prior to closing the Mess as the battalion moved out of the city to Shilo. Today we drive by the empty Barracks and shuttered Mess and we realize what we have lost.

Cheers


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## Radop (6 Feb 2005)

pbi said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, the combined mess has become increasingly common on operations, as has the combined dining facility in garrison.



What I really dislike is that in garrison they have officer/SNR NCO only areas but those ranks can choose to sit with the Jr NCOs if they want.  I think it should be all segragated or not at all.  In Warehouse we had all combined and there was no segregration.  We only had 450 troops on the ground and never had any problem with it.  Our sleeping areas were segregrated and that is were we bi****** about our bosses.  But for the most part, I agree the messes should be seperated.


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## The_Falcon (6 Feb 2005)

Not a big fan of combined messes.  However over the past 2 years or so Moss Park Armoury has been undergoing renovations of some sort that have required combined messing.  First the JR's mess had the flooring replaced about a year and half, two years ago.  This required our mess to be shut down for a few months.  For the first few weeks, the Sgt's Mess allowed us to go in have a few.  But the RSM decided not to continue this, which left us with no mess.  The 7 Toronto Sgt's mess was more than happy to allow us to drink in their mess, money was money and we paraded on Fridays so it would not conflict thier parade nights.  Fast forward to Sept 04 and the renovations (the entire building now) that started in June are now in the messes  (with the exception of the JR mess).  Despite being snubbed by the Sgt's and Officer's messes previously, we graciously allow our JR mess to become a combine mess (after all money is money, and it is getting more difficult to get people to stay in the Mess, considering we parade friday nights, and we are located in the Heart of Downtown Toronto).  However good the extra money was, it was kinda tense in there.  The JR were all on one side, SNCO's and Officers on the other.   They (SNCO's and Officers) happened to pick the side with the pool table and fooseball which kinda sucked.  Who wants to shoot pool and bitch about the RSM, CO, DCO etc.. when they are 2 feet from you.    

Now our mess is closed as well, so there are no messes to speak of at Moss Park.  The RSM said they will extend us the same courtesy we showed them ( : I believe that when I see it) because their mess will be finished first.  Just my experiences with combined messing.


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## Chief Clerk (9 Feb 2005)

Combined Messes save money - that is the only reason I can see many Bases going this route.  One infrastructure (one set of elect/water/etc bills), One set of barstaff (less wages to pay), Less Mess Managers.  Many have 3 small off shoots for the various ranks with one combined dance floor/etc.

In this day of cost reducing - would you rather a one Mess system or a new gym?  Hard questions to answer - maybe we should just take our hard earned money and take the family out to dinner DOWNTOWN


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## pbi (9 Feb 2005)

Chief Clerk said:
			
		

> Combined Messes save money - that is the only reason I can see many Bases going this route.   One infrastructure (one set of elect/water/etc bills), One set of barstaff (less wages to pay), Less Mess Managers.   Many have 3 small off shoots for the various ranks with one combined dance floor/etc.
> 
> In this day of cost reducing - would you rather a one Mess system or a new gym?   Hard questions to answer - maybe we should just take our hard earned money and take the family out to dinner DOWNTOWN



In my opinion, this is the point of view that sees the Mess from a purely functional point of view: a place to drink or eat. Sadly, I believe that an increasing number of us see it this way. The professional/social/cultural side of it seems to me to be in danger. Is this really how most serving folks  on this site see their mess? Just a place to grab a beer that's slightly cheaper than hitting the pubs? Or is there some greater value in a mess, that can't be met by just "going downtown?"

Cheers


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## aesop081 (9 Feb 2005)

pbi said:
			
		

> In my opinion, this is the point of view that sees the Mess from a purely functional point of view: a place to drink or eat. Sadly, I believe that an increasing number of us see it this way. The professional/social/cultural side of it seems to me to be in danger. Is this really how most serving folks   on this site see their mess? Just a place to grab a beer that's slightly cheaper than hitting the pubs? Or is there some greater value in a mess, that can't be met by just "going downtown?"
> 
> Cheers



pbi,

I agree with you that there is a value to the mess that has gotten lost over the years.  I remember when i joined and went on my QL3 in Chilliwack, the JRC was the place to go on friday nights.  The whole base parcticaly came out and partied together.  It was a small base so everybody knew eachother.  Unfortunately , it seems the messes have fallen out of fav ours with the troops. Although i do not think we should do away from the messes, we, IMHO, need to revitalize them and make them more atractive to CF members. The "eating messes" are another story.  I see nothing wrong with using the same building for Jr NCOs, Sr NCOs and officers. Here in Winnipeg, the NCOs have a separate dinning hall than the Officers. Very often 1 mess is closed so we are combined and it seems to work ( as is the case now since the NCO kitchen is being renovated).

One thing that i have noticed since arriving here ( and being new to the air force) is that alot of the people i am freinds with are officers and with the current system it is impossible to "have a few" on base with them.  Even when we have meet-and-greets ( which are always held in the officer's mess), we seem to be treated as "out-of-place" since there are only 5 of us Cpls in an "officer's school".  In the army i never had to deal with this type of situation so i was not sure what to make of it.


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## pbi (9 Feb 2005)

aesop081 said:
			
		

> pbi,
> 
> I agree with you that there is a value to the mess that has gotten lost over the years.   I remember when i joined and went on my QL3 in Chilliwack, the JRC was the place to go on friday nights.   The whole base parcticaly came out and partied together.   It was a small base so everybody knew eachother.   Unfortunately , it seems the messes have fallen out of fav ours with the troops. Although i do not think we should do away from the messes, we, IMHO, need to revitalize them and make them more atractive to CF members. The "eating messes" are another story.   I see nothing wrong with using the same building for Jr NCOs, Sr NCOs and officers. Here in Winnipeg, the NCOs have a separate dinning hall than the Officers. Very often 1 mess is closed so we are combined and it seems to work ( as is the case now since the NCO kitchen is being renovated).
> 
> One thing that i have noticed since arriving here ( and being new to the air force) is that alot of the people i am freinds with are officers and with the current system it is impossible to "have a few" on base with them.   Even when we have meet-and-greets ( which are always held in the officer's mess), we seem to be treated as "out-of-place" since there are only 5 of us Cpls in an "officer's school".   In the army i never had to deal with this type of situation so i was not sure what to make of it.


What do you think we could do to revitalize them? What makes messes "unattractive" to serving people today?

Cheers


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## a_majoor (10 Feb 2005)

pbi said:
			
		

> What do you think we could do to revitalize them? What makes messes "unattractive" to serving people today?



The two keys are what I pointed out earlier:" Downtown" for the younger troops, and "real life" for the older ones. I have seen troops willingly pay $30 for a one way cab ride to Owen Sound rather than walk across the parade square in Meaford to the JRs, where there are videos, games, beers etc. At the end of the week, they just want to get away from the base, and really, so do I (In my case to go home to family).

My own evil solution: voluntary mess membership. If people want to join, they will. If mess comittees want people to join, they have to come up with something creative to appeal to soldiers. (This is obviously different for garrison locations in Canada than deployed camps overseas, where there is a lot less "downtown", and home and family is on HLTA, but you get the idea).

We can't order people to go to the mess and expect them to comply with a smile, unless you can entice them with something they want or need, they will not come, period.


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## pbi (10 Feb 2005)

Hmmmm. I see what you are saying, but I'm not sure. I know that during the review of messes in the CF done a few years back, this was one of the options considered, although in the end we stayed with compulsory membership. My experience in RegF Officers' Messes is that unless it is a battalion mess (of   which I believe La Citadelle is the last one left in the Regular Army), only about 50% of regular members will ever participate. I suspect it may be somewhat higher for the WOs/Sgts Mess, and perhaps lower for the Ranks (but I don't know....). On this basis Messes as we know them might quickly become financially non-viable (a number of RegF messes have been close to that for a while, I think, kept afloat by Associates and rentals...). We might see the end of the Mess as we know it. Is that a good thing? 

(I believe that a number of Res Messes are also struggling, if our Bde is any indicator.)

Cheers


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## a_majoor (10 Feb 2005)

I remember being berated in the London Sgt and WOs mess about the low turn out for events (5 members of a possible 140 or so), but given the choice, I choose family. That is a very hard hurdle to overcome.

You ask if closing the mess is a good thing? Maybe the question should be inverted and we can ask "what is the relevance of the mess?", or perhaps "why should membership be compulsory/". If you sat on the review of the messes, I would be interested to know if these questions were raised, and what the answers were?


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## pbi (10 Feb 2005)

I didn't sit on the review of Messes, but I was Home Station Officer's Mess (HSOM) PMC in Calgary 95-97(for my sins). During that time I saw a noticeable decline in attendance at everything from the AGM to Happy Hours. I saw the attitude of officers, particularly (but not exclusively...) junior officers take a turn for the worse as far as attendance was concerned. Only a relatively small cadre were true "supporters". As we prepared to leave the old Home Station to relocate the bn to Edmonton, the battalions (1 and 3) took an important decision: we decided we would not put our Colours in the Mess, probably the first time that a PPCLI battalion in garrison did not do so. Why? Because we did not identify with the new Base Mess: it was not our "home" so therefore not a place for the Colours.

As far as participation in the running of "their" Mess; well, our HSOM Constitution stated that a quorum was 50% of available officers. "Available"  being they key word, because if it required 50% of the total enrolled regular Mess members we would never have had a quorum.

Now, I could perhaps have put all this down to me being a crap PMC (OK---well---maybe I was....) except for the fact that I had served in that battalion since 1989 and it was just a continuation of a trend.

Where does that leave the issue? Well-I think that there is a need for a place like a Mess where, relaxing in comfortable setting, surrounded by the history of our units, we can meet each other on a (more or less...) level playing field within our rank group and act pretty much as we please, talk about whatever we like, and share some fellowship. It is also a great place to host friends and visitors in a way of saying "welcome to our family home". Does this require the elaborate Mess governance and NPF structure that we have had for years? I honestly don't know.

I fear that a majoor and others represent the truth, but I hope that they don't and that the good aspects of the Mess system can be preserved.

Cheers.


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## George Wallace (10 Feb 2005)

The Mess serves a very valuable purpose.   It at one time was the "Diningroom, Livingroom and Rec Room" for the single living in guys.   It was the Regiments "private" little corner or club where members could go and socialize with their peer.   It was also a place where one could go after a rough day at work, a bad day on tour, a bad night on patrol, or whatever might have caused a stressful or psychological problem and one could go 'cool down', 'unwind' or talk over a situation with one's peers and hopefully solve it.   

I have seen Happy Hours where 'poke chest' was being carried out, fists may have flown, but come Monday, the problems were solved and forgotten.   We live in stressful times.   Perhaps even more stressful than that of a decade ago.   Happy Hours and whatever pressure releases that they provided are gone.   I could never understand the "No Booze" policy suddenly inflicted on the troops in Bosnia by BGen Jeffries.   Guys would return from a Body Exchange and all the gore involved with handling Body Bags and retire to the Mess to relax with a couple of cans of Coke before heading off to bed - Yeah sure, that worked great.   They really got a lot off their chests and talked out their problems.   No wonder we have so many problems with PTS, there are no ways to unwind and release.

Messes do serve a vital function.   We need them to unwind.   We can't always  do it downtown in a Civie Bar.

GW


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## pbi (10 Feb 2005)

> Messes do serve a vital function.  We need them to unwind.  We can't do it downtown in a Civie Bar.



I think GW is on to an important point here, but some people might challenge it by saying that the activities we use to "unwind" are now very restricted.

Cheers


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## Infanteer (10 Feb 2005)

Also, you got to remember that a huge portion of the Army is young men who have one thing on their mind.  Can you blame them for wanting to get downtown.  I know why I went and hit up Whyte Ave instead of kicking around the JR Club at CFB Edmonton.


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## bossi (10 Feb 2005)

Do I dare chime in with my $0.02 ... or will I immediately be cuffed soundly around the ears and thrown out the door with my shooting stick ... ? (chuckle)

A few decades ago when I was a subbie, we'd stick around and enjoy the mess until midinight ... and if it was "dead" we'd make a mad dash to a commercial establishment for "last call" (... and take our chances vis-a-vis "go ugly early" ...).  However, if the mess was hopping, we'd stay there and enjoy it as if there was no tomorrow (and on a Friday night, quite literally this was true).

We enjoyed mess life, as it was meant to be - sometimes we'd even get together in the mess when it was closed (an experience duplicated in both St Hubert and Downsview when I lived in - the mess was indeed our home, as opposed to that tiny, crummy room in barracks ...).

And, as noted earlier, in Camp Warehouse our tents were in effect our "mess", where we could "get away from it all" and enjoy just hanging out with our peers (on several occasions, our tent got in trouble because we kept neighbouring tents awake with our boisterous laughter ... such was the good, clean fun we had in our little "family").

Whether on operations, exercises or in garrison, sometimes it's enjoyable to be able to socialise with our peer groups - after all, if you've just spent all day working with one set of people, sometimes it's nice to have a change of scenery ...

Also, I'm not in favour of "combine" messes - a unit mess is something to be treasured, and is a place where bonds are forged.


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## dutchie (10 Feb 2005)

For me, from a Res perspective, the mess is a very important part of my military life. We, at the Seaforth Highlanders Men's Mess, have traditionally had a 'spirited', well-supported, and lively mess. In the past, supporting the mess was compulsory (unofficially) to being accepted as a Seaforth. We've had great parties, fights, silly contests (usually involving questionable activity and beer), and a lot of fun. This helped 'sell me' on the Regiment, and made me want to excel at my job. There were times when the Mess was enough of a draw for me when the morale of the Regiment was dismally low (late 90's to 2001), that I would parade and go on ex just to support the guys, and get to the mess. The Mess today is not nearly as 'tight' as it once was. It's not taken as seriously anymore. Gone are the days when a young troopie was taken to task by his mates for not supporting them mess. We used to have to earn our way to full acceptance in the Mess, fetching ice, setting up tables & chairs, etc. Now we have to ask them to show up.

The Mess is crucial, IMHO, to the health of a Res unit. 

Oh, and Combined Messes contradict everything I've been taught about 'frat' (not that kind) between troops and officers (or Sr NCOs/WOs). I don't want to drink with my OC, and I'm pretty sure he doesn't want to drink with me.


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## pbi (10 Feb 2005)

Are the traditional social aspects of all professions changing? Let me offer an example.

When I lived in Calgary, several of my friends were firefighters, most with 20-30 years of service. I can recall one of them relating that when he joined the CFD as a rookie, if you didn't move fast to buy your tickets to the Firefighters' Ball, you were out of luck. Now, he said, they couldn't give the tickets away. 

Is there a relationship here? Is it a problem that is bigger than just us?

Cheers


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## aesop081 (11 Feb 2005)

pbi said:
			
		

> Are the traditional social aspects of all professions changing? Let me offer an example.
> 
> When I lived in Calgary, several of my friends were firefighters, most with 20-30 years of service. I can recall one of them relating that when he joined the CFD as a rookie, if you didn't move fast to buy your tickets to the Firefighters' Ball, you were out of luck. Now, he said, they couldn't give the tickets away.
> 
> ...



I think you may be on to something there.......


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## sapper332 (11 Feb 2005)

Alright - I'm in...so here's my 2 cents for the kitty....
  The never faltering,, steadfast traditions of old are gone - I think that must be an accepted fact. Units try (at least my Unit does) to bring back the days of old where soldiers hung together both on and off duty in a place called the "JRs" or the "Mess".
   With our current operational tempo, and inability to keep the younger soldiers in past their 1st BE - it seems almost impossible to build traditions with the new "Fire and Forget" soldiers that enter the CF these days.
   The new generations of Canadians (and therefore members of the CF) are the "what can you do for me" and "I want it NOW!" generation. The reality of current CF traditions seem to involve instant messaging, emailing and surfing the 'net.... this is of course in addition to playing on-line against your shackmate 2 doors down - instead of a good game of cards - face to face - sharing a cool beverage in the mess/ ranks.

   I wonder if Mess Dinners of the future will have everyone conversing through Palm Pilots?!?! Would sure be an easy way for the RSM to let you know how many extra you're gonna get if you get up from the table!!!

Cheers all.


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## aesop081 (11 Feb 2005)

E49G said:
			
		

> I wonder if Mess Dinners of the future will have everyone conversing through Palm Pilots?!?! Would sure be an easy way for the RSM to let you know how many extra you're gonna get if you get up from the table!!!



Damn that's funny !

CHIMO !


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## Radop (12 Feb 2005)

E49G said:
			
		

> Alright - I'm in...so here's my 2 cents for the kitty....
> The never faltering,, steadfast traditions of old are gone - I think that must be an accepted fact. Units try (at least my Unit does) to bring back the days of old where soldiers hung together both on and off duty in a place called the "JRs" or the "Mess".
> With our current operational tempo, and inability to keep the younger soldiers in past their 1st BE - it seems almost impossible to build traditions with the new "Fire and Forget" soldiers that enter the CF these days.



The traditions were actually erradicated by political death squads.  Anything that was concidered an initiation was banned.  We have few traditions that we were able to keep.  The JRs in Kingston was a social meeting point for civilians and military but the base commander at one time banned civilians without military escort.  Most of the civis coming were female and attracted the young males to the ranks and kept them there.

The other thing I find difficult to swallow is that we take in thousands of dollars in mess dues every month yet we are not allowed to have parties or bring in acts that exceed bar revenues.  You bring in billy bobs band of misfits to play a gig and you attract 30-40 people to a dance out of 700 members.  When we bring in Great Big Sea, we have hundreds come out (allowed twice in the 11 yrs we have lived in Kingston).  Give the messes more freedom to spend the money they take in and bring events that can compete with bars downtown.  Furthermore, having to pay for part of the shortfall of the officer's mess is not looked upon very well by the JR ranks members.  Our Snr NCOs mess is actually making money.  

Lastly, the fire and forget soldiers makes more sense as a force.  We cannot have a majority of Cpls like we did in the 90s with very few Ptes and schools running one course a year for basic trades training.  It was a waste of resources and man power.  Remusters and a high turn-around of troups (including not resigning soldiers whose performance does not meet expectations) is important to the mess as promotions then have meening both to the member and to his peers.  This would attract people to celebrate promotions.  Now we go off base to celebrate.  If a soldier feels proud to receive a promotion, then they feel they have earned it.  

One question though, when did the tradition change from the members of the mess by a promoted collegue a beer for congratulation to the current were they by the mess membership a beer for a promotion.  This costs the member hundreds of dollars (some of the people have paid as much as $800 for a promotion because it was done before a bosses night or other functions).  Personally, I place a set amount (for my promotion to MCpl, $150 and anyone I gave a ticket to could drink on me until that money was gone) on the bar and limit who drinks on my tab.  Bloggins from base supply who had nothing to do with my promotion doesn't get to drink on my money.  The Ptes and Cpls who helped me get to that rank were rewarded by me through this little jesture.


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## Edward Campbell (12 Feb 2005)

I think we need to go back to the origins of messes - which was in 19th British colonial stations, mainly India and Canada.

Until the post Crimean War reforms, the British Army in Britain was, essentially, a _militia_, only the Royal Artillery and Royal Engineers were professional soldiers where promotion, for officers, was on merit and skill.   Commissions in the infantry and cavalry, until the 1860s, were purchased on the (not unsound) theory that the skills and knowledge requirements of an officer were fairly easily mastered through some sort of _apprenticeship_ and loyalty and courage mattered most - loyalty, it was held, was most likely to be strongest in those who had the most to lose: the richer classes - thus purchased commissions made good sense.

Officers, in particular, were almost visitors to their units - showing up two or three times a week, perhaps.   They did not have messes in London or in the counties - officers lived and dined and entertained in their homes or in clubs or eating houses.   (When I was in London we used to dine, regularly, at a lovely old pub/restaurant in Belgravia which was the 'mess' of sorts for the regiments of foot guards in Wellington's army.)   Soldiers and sergeants (with wives and children), too, dined in barracks but took their entertainment in the local pubs and music halls.

Things were different in the colonies - much different in India, somewhat different in Canada.

In India it was felt necessary to recreate a little 'slice' of Britain for the British officers and their families and the officer' mess was born - filling then, as it did until latein the 20th century three functions:

"¢	A home for the living in officers;

"¢	A club for all the officers; and

"¢	The social centre of the unit - where the commanding officer could entertain, officially.

Similar, less elaborate facilities existed for sergeants and soldiers, too.

Canada was a bit different - in the few important garrisons (Halifax, Quebec and Kingston) there was some familiar _civil society_.   Those who have visited Kingston may have noted that the Mess at Fort Henry was small - that's because it was home for only the few RA and RE officers.   The officers of the various regiments which garrisoned the fort lived downtown - there was (I hope still is) a row of early 19th century houses down near the harbour - right near the Holiday Inn (if memory serves) and that was where some of the officers lived.

By the late 19th century many of the colonial customs had been brought home as the Indian Army set the example for a new, professional British Army.   A professional, career officer corps meant that fewer aristocrats were in the ranks but the Army still desired that officers should be and act as gentlemen - the Indian Army idea of officers' messes helped middle class men to affect upper class airs.

In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, as the Canadian Army was formed, grew, contracted and grew again it was logical to adopt the existing British customs and traditions, including the increasingly elaborate officers' messes - reflecting late Victorian and Edwardian social mores.   That stayed in effect until, about, the 1970s.

In the '60s we made a sharp _course correction_ and it was decided that what we really wanted was a mature, married, middle class and largely urban army - a mistake, in my personal opinion but that and a dollar will get a cheap cup of coffee.   The _social_ rules and regulations which, for example, prohibited marriage for officers until they were 25 years old, required single officers and men to live in barracks, and subsidized clubs and messes, were scrapped; a heavily armed civil service was the _new model_ military for Canada.

The whole thing was best summed up by a recruiting poster which showed - honest to gawd - a young officer, carrying a briefcase, stepping off an executive jet; that was what 'they' (whoever they were) wanted our army to be.   It isn't surprising that ideas and ideals like regimental traditions and bonding were harder and harder to maintain.   Changes in the NPF philosophy and necessary cost cutting also made it harder and harder to justify retaining a row of individual regimental messes in places like Petawawa and Gagetown - they were in trouble as early as the end of the '60s.

I agree with those who note that we are changing with the times ... I just wanted to remind you that we changed into the 'system' we are abandoning.


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## pbi (12 Feb 2005)

ROJ: Excellent post. Quite the finest summation of Mess development that I have seen.



> The whole thing was best summed up by a recruiting poster which showed â â€œ honest to gawd â â€œ a young officer, carrying a briefcase, stepping off an executive jet; that was what 'they' (whoever they were) wanted our army to be.



Too bloody right: what a sickening display that was. When you sell military service as a "job", don't be surprised if you get "workers" instead of "soldiers". Don't get me started......

Cheers


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## Steel Badger (13 Feb 2005)

To back up PBI with an example from the public sector..

A while back the friendly Ontario NDP goverment of the day de-layered and "de-militarized" the Ontario Correction Service.

Corporals, Sergeants, Lieutenants and Captains were are all replaced by some flavour of "manager"....
And the biggest problem was that it wasn't the terms alone that changed....but the mind-set and job culture / professionalism of the leadership "class" was changed due to the change in the upper management mindset.....

In the interest of delayering etc, the old system of flights and squads were broken up, and left us with the present mess...where there is little cohesion possible...just random assortments of people who fill slots on the schedule the same way the inmate clientele fill cell bunks....

The management culture is such that "Lead from behind" is the battle cry...or more properly "Manage from the Lounge" ....The attitude of "Not my job" and "WHO ME? Its not MY job to set the standard." is rife.

While they as a group compare themselves in importance to the commissioned officers of the CF......They possess none of the qualities as a group that are demonstated on a daily basis by leaders of all calibres in the CF.
Indeed, the very things that are the "Holy Writ" of Military Leadership :

Know your troops and promote their welfare...
Take responsibility for your actions and 
Lead from the front....

Have been long eradicated from the managerial culture.....

Please note that this is NOT an attempt to take a cheap shot at ever one of our OM's (Operational Managers)/ There are many excellent ones in the system....but they would have been good "leaders" in any field.

Our systems does not prepare our managers to lead in what is very often a volitile and dangerous environment.
This is entirely due to the imposed change in mindset from the military mindset of old corrections (Created in its modern form largely by vets of WW1 and 2) to the case-management, business oriented minset of our present "corporate" system.

I have often been criticised negatively for prefering the terms current in the old Canadian Army, RCAF and RCN, buit what many of those who feel that "a name is not important" do not realize...ios that terms CAN change how we think and view our jobs......and indeed our lives......


Soldiers in training used to be Candiates...who had to prove their abilities in order to pass as trained soldiers....Now they are considered trainees, and are to be trained even if, after exhausting effort, they cannot meet the standard...the important change in my view placing the complete and utter onus of the staff to make a soldier meet the standard....to the extent that the recruiting phase is now the selection process for the military and not the GMT / BMQ / SFN course.......


In short, mindsets can have enourmous effect on how things actually work (Im not a NCO as  Corporal...I'm just a senior Private)...and terms are a reflection of that......
(Please not that I am NOT arguing


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## Steel Badger (13 Feb 2005)

Sorry all for petering out in mid-sentance....

Am posting at work, and have had to postpone completion to deal with a situation.

More to follow


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## DaveK (13 Feb 2005)

Rusty Old Joint said:
			
		

> ; a heavily armed civil service was the _new model_ military for Canada.



You've hit the nail on the head there.


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## Spr.Earl (13 Feb 2005)

X Royal said:
			
		

> Agreed combined messes are a bean counters way of saving money. All three messes should   be on there own. Even combined dining facilities are  not proper. Feed everyone the same but in different places. The only acceptions to the above are in the field or in very small dets.   In larger bases like Petawawa   I see   no need to feed the three groups in the same hall.



Sorry Ex I don't buy that one.(Bean Counters)
One can make a Mess out of a Rat hole if need be.

 Case in point was in Corolici were we Engineers cleaned out the area between our ISO's and C.E. and made a great barbie area with a hot tub,fire pit,all scrounged even the flowers we planted were from seeds the mothers of some of the guys sent us.Even though we could not drink it was a great little spot to relax and shoot the breeze.
After every one had seen what we had done it was a scrounge athon,the 2nd Pats made their own so did REME etc.Yet when we arrived there was no out door relaxation areas.


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## 043 (13 Feb 2005)

Closed Coralici in 2000.............was a great place! And the best of all, we are isolated from the rest of the camp!

Chimo!


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## Spr.Earl (13 Feb 2005)

So what did you do with my Hot Tub?
Yup I was the one who scrounged the tank from Murry Johnson and Gord Day-Holliway saying "He sees nothing" as I'm stuffing it into the back of a LS CP.
I asked Merry if he had a condemned tank and voila "ask and yee shall receive"and it all went from there.
You are right we did have a very relaxing area but a lot of hard work went into making it just that.
Were all the signitures still on the wall?
As we were Roto 0 just before we left we all signed the wall.


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## 043 (13 Feb 2005)

I thought 2 CER did Roto 0............the Surge...........no?


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## Spr.Earl (13 Feb 2005)

1 CER,we did the transition from IFOR to SFOR after 5 left and what a mess they left. :
Danny Hartford was in charge of the surge.


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## 043 (13 Feb 2005)

Ack!!!!!!!!

Got any posting rumours? I hear Ed Ingleby is getting his CWO's and heading to Cold Lake.


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## Pte.Gunning (14 Feb 2005)

I share a mess with Kocr's and med's so get use to it its how it is theres days


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## X Royal (14 Feb 2005)

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> Sorry Ex I don't buy that one.(Bean Counters)
> One can make a Mess out of a Rat hole if need be.
> 
> Case in point was in Corolici were we Engineers cleaned out the area between our ISO's and C.E. and made a great barbie area with a hot tub,fire pit,all scrounged even the flowers we planted were from seeds the mothers of some of the guys sent us.Even though we could not drink it was a great little spot to relax and shoot the breeze.
> After every one had seen what we had done it was a scrounge athon,the 2nd Pats made their own so did REME etc.Yet when we arrived there was no out door relaxation areas.



Spr.Earl if you check out my quote you will see I said except in the field. I consider overseas operations the same as in the field in regards to this subject. My comments were in respect to our messes on our bases in Canada & and at our reserve Armouries. I stand   by my earlier comments.

Best Wishes


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## X Royal (14 Feb 2005)

Pte.Gunning said:
			
		

> I share a mess with Kocr's and med's so get use to it its how it is theres days



Pte. Gunning the original point of this thread was not different units sharing a mess but combining the officers, snr nco's and junior ranks messes or combining the officers and snr nco's messes.


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## Spr.Earl (14 Feb 2005)

CHIMO!!!!! said:
			
		

> Ack!!!!!!!!
> 
> Got any posting rumours? I hear Ed Ingleby is getting his CWO's and heading to Cold Lake.


Don't know the man but he will end up in PLER. as CWO Lacheritie (Spelling) is slated to be the RSM of 1 CER this summer and as for Dan I have heard nothing and those Engineers with 4 AES, two are posted to 1 CER this July/Aug.
Thats all I've heard.


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## Spr.Earl (14 Feb 2005)

X Royal,received and understood.
No offence meant.


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## X Royal (14 Feb 2005)

None taken.

Best Wishes


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## thorbahn (14 Feb 2005)

I agree, in most cases I (being a Pte) would generally want to spend time with my buddies, seperate from the Officers. However, at times a combined mess is appropriate, such as in my unit. Between Jr Ranks, WO's, Sergeants, and Officers we have about 15-20 who attend the mess regularly.


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## Brad Sallows (24 Feb 2005)

Some observations of experiences with different cultural attitudes toward alcohol and the working day:

http://www.kimdutoit.com/ee/index.php/rant/single/un_lubricated/


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## T19 (25 Feb 2005)

E39G said:
			
		

> Presently serving in Kabul where we share a mess with the Officers. I have 20 years in , am 41 and do not wish to spend my time relaxing listening to some 20something Officer whine about how rough HIS FIRST TOUR is. So what ever happened to "the only mess you earn your way in" !!! Thanks 23 , out.



I agree, after 24 years in I like being an officer and dinning with my peers and subies.  Combined messes are a bad thing, ok for a short time, but bad in the long run.  Young soldiers don't want all the bosses watching, and the boss likes to let his/her hair down too!


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## George Wallace (27 Feb 2005)

Welcome T19....I see you've taken the plunge.  

There is a place for a Combined Mess, and I saw a good example in Bosnia where the Engineers had a Combined Mess where all ranks could get together and socialize.  It must be remembered, however, that there were seperate Messes for all at the same time.  This gave everyone the oportunity to drink/socialize solely with their peers or go socialize with their 'Section complete'.  

This in many cases is what we find on most Bases today; the Formal Messes and then the Canex facility such as the Centenial Center in Pet or the old Dundee's in Gagetown, that were run more as Civilian operations open to all.

GW


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## DSB (28 Feb 2005)

After months of lurking I thought I'd share My my two cents'


This only pertains to sharing a mess, (not the dinning kind),with the JNCOs, ( I can't comment on the SNCO/Off mess setup)

In my somewhat limited experience I would have to say that combined messes lead to problems.  I can think of a few occasions where I have seen drunk senior NCOS and Officers make an ass of themeselves, (not necessarily at my unit mind you).  One can not help but lose respect for your supervisors in such cases.  Hard to forget those times, and its better to avoid the possibility.  I think separate messes help professionalism to a degree, it lets the SNCOs drop their game face in the mess, and lets JNCOs let loose, relax, bitch in their mess. Both sides benefit.  

Shared messes only benefit number crunchers, and could  possibly hurt moral.]

DSB


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## RatCatcher (1 Mar 2005)

I hate to sya this but I think Valcartier actually has a good solution with one os its messes. I know this since I am a member of one of the only (if not the only) MCpls Mess in the CF. It is not only a bar, but we have the best "restaurant" on the base (at least the best poutine ). It is open to all ranks, however you will rarely see Cpls/ptes and officers there, in fact I have never seen an officer there. We are also open to civvies who work on base. However.... on tuesday at lunch it is open ONLY for members of the mess, and all special events are restricted to members or significant others.  We have received kudos from the BComd for a very successful organization. After seeing the Jrs in Edmonton, Borden, Kingston and a couple of militia units I must say you will not see a more interesting crowd in a mess. Be it a WO or MCpl...we all get along, and very little shop talk.... 

Anyway, remember to tip the beermaids good...

Cheers


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## Franko (1 Mar 2005)

T19....welcome.

I agree...the last thing I need to see in my mess is my boss after a long day.....

Unless he's buying!   ;D

Regards


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## Block 1 (4 Mar 2005)

Now this is an interesting topic, should the mess be mixed ! â Å“Noâ ? should their be functions that are mixed â Å“Yesâ ?. I like the 82 airborne concept and fort Irwin's. One building one central bar in a circular centre. The Officers mess has one wing, the SNCO's another wing, the Troops another wing, with the last wing being the common dance hall that can be booked by all. This allows for segregation or, if you don't like that word try separation of the ranks. It also allows for sharing of the cost such as bartenders and cleaners. they each have their own privet wings and a combined one if needed. Its the best of two worlds. Just remember we are all â Å“Soldiers Firstâ ?.  

 :soldier:


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## aesop081 (6 Mar 2005)

Block 1 said:
			
		

> Now this is an interesting topic, should the mess be mixed ! â Å“Noâ ? should their be functions that are mixed â Å“Yesâ ?. I like the 82 airborne concept and fort Irwin's. One building one central bar in a circular centre. The Officers mess has one wing, the SNCO's another wing, the Troops another wing, with the last wing being the common dance hall that can be booked by all. This allows for segregation or, if you don't like that word try separation of the ranks. It also allows for sharing of the cost such as bartenders and cleaners. they each have their own privet wings and a combined one if needed. Its the best of two worlds. Just remember we are all â Å“Soldiers Firstâ ?.
> 
> :soldier:



The Annapolis mess here in greenwood is like that and it seems to work well. Each group has their own areas and there is an all-ranks area.  This is great since crews here are a mix of officers and NCMs on the same airplanes, we can all have a few together.


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