# Wasting my life?



## Nagy (24 Feb 2004)

Ok, I‘ve asked just about everyone this and have heard all sorts of responces, so I think it‘s time to ask the people there themselves. Right now I‘m 15 years old. I was wondering if I would be able to make it if I finished grade 10 when I turn 16 and leave school to join reserves and live on base in Edmonton, Alberta. Then join the army as an Infantry Soldier when I‘m 17, and re-enroll back into school through a distance eduction program to finish my high school so I can rank up to a Infantry Officer. Would this be able to work in reality or am I just living in my own little dream world?


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## Korus (24 Feb 2004)

You‘re living in your own little dream world.  

Wait until you finish high school before you join the Regular force. If you want to be a reservist beforehand, driving to Edmonton is a little far, and  you won‘t be able to afford living in the city off of a private‘s pay in the part time reserve.

20th Field Regiment (Artillery) has a battery in Red Deer, you could join that if you want a taste of military life while you‘re still in high school
20th Field Regiment Website

The best piece of advice I can give you, is don‘t quit high-school. Finish it if you can, it‘s not worth it to drop out, especially since you pretty much need a post-secondary education to become an officer, and you can‘t get that without High School.


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## wongskc (24 Feb 2004)

It‘ll be alot easier on you if you finish high school no matter what you do, especially if you decide that the military is not your thing in the long run.


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## GrahamD (24 Feb 2004)

I‘m pretty sure that they are phasing out the continuing education option for officer training in the next couple of years.

This means ONLY people with post secondary degrees will be considered for officer training.

As it is right now, it is still EXTREMELY unlikely that they would choose someone for officer training who is a teenager and who chose to not finish highschool.
The continuing education officer training was geared toward older more mature people who have demonstrated leadership ability in previous employment, and just happened to not have gone to university.  
Plus it was mandatory that such candidates finished, or made appropriate progress, in their degrees while employed.

My personal opinion is that someone who wishes to drop out of highschool at 16 (grade 10?) COULD NOT complete officer training AND a degree at the same time.
  MAYBE someone who has some life experience, who can deal with huge amounts of stress, and has already learned how to be a leader in the civilian world, can manage to display the required focus and dedication.  A teenager could not.
It would be far more demanding than you probably imagine.  It‘s one thing to say that you would be willing to never have a free moment where you are not training, working, or studying, for the beter part of five years, but actualy living that situation would be brutal and would require complete dedication.  It would be akin to being a med student.  No dating, no friends, no hobbies, nothing but work and school, all the time, frequently with little and no sleep.
  Plus a willingness to do it is not enough, you also need to constantly meet the educational requirements.  No ones going to care that you were on course, on deployment or whatever, they‘re going to care why you only got 76% in physics.

Anyway, I‘m sure you get my point.  If you want to be an officer, dropping out of highschool is  absolutely the worst thing you could do.  The best way to become an officer is to commit to doing whatever it takes to getting the highest grades you possibly can for grades 11 and 12, and then apply to RMC for officer training.  Use tutors, any extra time a teacher is willing to give, study groups/partners, and aim for 100% in all your classes.

Besides that, you‘ll want to get into team based sports, volunteer your free time, achieve educational awards if possible, and demonstrate leadership in one way or another (ie on a sports team, the debating club, summer councellor for youth programs, etc.)

Some people have all of these qualifications and still wash out of officer training, so keep that in mind.


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## Nagy (24 Feb 2004)

What the the general requirements in classes to even be considered for officer training? I can‘t really say I‘m the best at school, but I‘m still able to get 60-70 in all my classes.


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## tree hugger (24 Feb 2004)

I hate to sound negative, however, I don‘t thnk those marks would get you into ANY university.  My advice: finish high school, join the reserves for your remainder of high school, boost your average in your final years of high school and go to university on your own coin.  Afterwards you can get a transfer to a become a reg force infantry officer.  Good luck and all the best!


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## GrahamD (24 Feb 2004)

> Originally posted by Nagy:
> [qb] What the the general requirements in classes to even be considered for officer training? I can‘t really say I‘m the best at school, but I‘m still able to get 60-70 in all my classes. [/qb]


Selection is competetive, I would suggest working harder and getting some help in all your subjects.  I would also suggest that you aim to have all your grades above 80% to compete with the other candidates.

As I remember it, completing class and homework assignments alone could earn you up to 80%, that‘s even if you got zero on every test.
Since homework assignments are all "open book", and class assignments can most often be discussed with friends and/or the teacher, then there really is no reason why a person should not be able to earn a "B" in that area.  As for the tests, you should be able to at least pass them if you‘ve completed your assignments (some of the knowledge will rub off).  So theoretically, you should easily be able to pull down 90% in any class.

Obviously though the key is determination.  It takes a special student to give that kind of commitment to their education.  Most kids don‘t do a lot of their assignments, or they do them poorly, choosing to just hand something in, rather than taking the extra 20 minutes to double check their answers against their notes or text books.
  Many of the 90%+ average students at my school, weren‘t exceptionaly smart, really they were just nerdy and had good parents who pushed them to always get 100% on assignments and projects.

Anyway, that‘s why the military is looking for honour students and university graduates to train as officers.  They‘ve already proved themselves to be meticulous, focused and hard working.

If it‘s the material you‘re struggling with, then its as easy as hiring a tutor.  If you can‘t afford one, most schools will provide peer tutoring.  Also talk to your teachers, thats what they‘re there for.


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## RJG (24 Feb 2004)

Your marks now have no effect on anything. If you pass all your grade 9-11 courses then get 70 or higher in your grade twelve classes you can get into ANY university, but only in certain programs (By any university of course i mean the majority.) The most important thing you can do now is to stay in high school and try to get atleast 70 grades. Some universities will take a 60 but its unlikely, and for an officer you will need much higher.


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## Pte. Bloggins (24 Feb 2004)

> Originally posted by RJG:
> [qb] Your marks now have no effect on anything. If you pass all your grade 9-11 courses then get 70 or higher in your grade twelve classes you can get into ANY university, but only in certain programs (By any university of course i mean the majority.)
> Some universities will take a 60 but its unlikely,  [/qb]


Umm.....which university is this? I‘m applying for university right now and for most programs the cut-off is at least high 70s (most low to mid 80s) and some programs even require high 80s to mid 90s. I wouldn‘t quite say that getting a 70 will get you into any university.


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## cdhoult (24 Feb 2004)

MUN (Memorial University of Nfld) will accept anyone with 70%+, as well as residency to all first years.

ManitobaU, 63% cut off

Laurention, 68%

UPEI, 65%

UNBC, 65%

And none of those are bad universities either.


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## Yes Man (24 Feb 2004)

Well from what I have been told is you have to be in university (ie they want your transcript) to even apply to be an officer.  There is no way any university will take you if you don‘t finish high school.

BTW Im 19 (in 1st year at UofT) right now and trying to become an officer in the reserve.  I think that there are lower standards for reserves, but even they I was told that they would like to see more experience from officer candidates.


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## Nagy (26 Feb 2004)

So what if I was to just stay as an Infantry Private? I know minimun requirements is a grade 10 but those people are probably at the bottom on the line for getting in. What would you say my chances are if I was to finish high school with say a 64 average? I also plan in leaving for the Army a month after I turn 17 (november 2005). How long does it usually take to get enrolled? Because I might consider finding a job in Edmonton to support my rent and join the reserves until I‘m accepted into the reg.

  :mg:


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## D-n-A (26 Feb 2004)

Nagy, if your goal is to go reg force, probably the best thing to do is apply for the reg force half way through your grade 12 year, get all your tests done, an out of the way, an when you graduate you can, get sworn in, etc, an go to St Jean, etc, an go regs right out of high school(if it all works out)

dont drop out of high school, especially just to be a reservist, also you dont wanna make a career out of being a private..


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## chrisf (26 Feb 2004)

Just finish highschool first. Passing, even with a low average, is better than dropping out.


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## Nagy (26 Feb 2004)

Well this many sound kind of weird, but I‘d actually be fine with a career as a private. I just want to get out there, serve my country and get a little dirt on my face. Money and living conditions has never mattered to me. And ya, I‘ve decided that I‘ll stay in school, thanks for your guys help


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## Pieman (26 Feb 2004)

Smart move Nagy!    

Success is the collision between preperation and opportunity. 

I forget who said that, but it is right.


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## Michael OLeary (26 Feb 2004)

Nagy, it‘s easy to say that now when all you want is to get out of a stifling classroom, but you‘re not going to be in your teens and full of rebellious energy forever. Money and living conditions may matter in five or ten years, and then it‘ll be lot harder to get things back on track.

Finishing school will be the smartest thing you‘ll have done while in your teens, you just won‘t really be able to understand that until you‘re 30 and look back on what opportunities you would have missed if you‘d only had Grade 10.


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## Nagy (1 Mar 2004)

7 months of the year I live in a ‘71 Banner motorhome and do distance education to complete high school. I do BMX videos with Blinded Trust Films =\
To tell you the truth, livin in a motorhome isn‘t half bad, and CHEAP.


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## willy (1 Mar 2004)

To start: Nagy, I think that the advice you‘ve been given here is good, and I think you‘ve made a pretty good call with sticking with school.

And Now:

I suppose that this post may be going off on a bit of a tangent from Nagy‘s original question, but here is my advice to young people who wish to join the reserves under the Direct Entry Officer or similar plans: don‘t.

In the course of several unit recruiting activities I have been involved with, I have met a fair number of individuals, usually high school or university students, who have turned up their noses at the thought of joining the CF as a NCM.  To be honest with you, I myself had a similar attitude when I was in the process of joining.  I consider myself to be a fairly intelligent person, I am university educated, and I figured, at the time, that if I was going to join the military, joining as an officer was the way to go.  Needless to say, I did not do so: at the time that I joined, I had just completed my first year of university, and I did not meet the two years post secondary requirement for the RESO program.  I was convinced by the unit recruiter that it wouldn‘t be a bad thing to join as a Pte, do my basic training, and apply to become an officer at some point down the line.  To this day, I still haven‘t made that application, and I‘m glad I haven‘t.  

I don‘t mean to offend anyone by saying this, but if you are young, with minimal real world job experience, and no military skills, you have ZERO to offer the CF as an officer.  This holds true regardless of any natural intelligence, leadership potential, or strong character traits you posess.  It holds true regardless of any civilian education that you posess.  Getting a B.A. in English, or even a Masters in Electronics Engineering, does not qualify you to do the job of an officer.  Certainly not well, at any rate.  Experience is the key: either military experience(ideally) or experience in a civilian management/administrative role.

Within the regular force, many officer candidates are educated/trained at RMC.  They are subject to an intensive four year training regimen, during which they are given extensive opportunity to absorb the CF‘s institutional culture, in addition to the regular university education they receive.  During summer months, they are subject to tough military training.  After four years of that, and having been issued their degree, they still have to complete more courses before being commissioned, and then they‘re only 2Lts.

My point in mentioning this is that despite this intensive training process, which many do not complete successfully, these new 2Lts are by no means to be considered great leaders.  They lack experience, and, whether deservedly or undeservedly, get very little respect from most other soldiers (if you think otherwise, try asking a senior NCO what he thinks of these kids).  And this is in the regular force!  The reserves cannot offer the same lengthy training package that the regs can, and the young officers that we produce tend, for that reason, to be (generally speaking, I hope no one takes offence) just that much more... ineffective, shall we say.    

I think that a lot of people get wrapped around the axle with regards to status.  They have big ideas about how grandiose it will be if they‘re an officer.  Well, it won‘t, and it particularly won‘t be for those who can‘t do their job well.  To sum up, my advice-- not just to you Nagy, but to all other students out there who are thinking about becoming an officer in the reserves is this: join the ranks first.  You can still apply to become an officer any time you want, and I guarantee that you will be a better officer for the critical additional experience that it will give you.


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## Michael OLeary (1 Mar 2004)

> They lack experience, and, whether deservedly or undeservedly, get very little respect from most other soldiers (if you think otherwise, try asking a senior NCO what he thinks of these kids).


There can be no action more damaging to a unit‘s integrity than Senior NCOs that set an example of showing disrespect for young officers. Once that attitude is entrenched, how exactly do those NCO‘s reinstill respect for an officer that does show him or herself capable of doing the job?

Is it not a basic responsibility of Sr NCOs to assist young officers and to ensure they are treated in accordance with their rank while they are learning their trade? How are they doing this if they spend their time sharing attitudes such as you describe? This situation you describe is not the young officer‘s failing, it is that of the unit and the NCOs who perpetrate such attitudes.


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## willy (1 Mar 2004)

True, and note that I said that this disrespect occurs "whether deservedly or undeservedly".  There are some officers who are quite good at their jobs, regardless of age or experience.  If I didn‘t make it clear enough in my post that I believe that to be the case, then I apologize.  However, many are not.  It is my view that many young reserve officers are put into positions for which they are vastly underqualified.  I think that this causes problems not only for the unit as a whole, but for the mbr in question as well.  It has been the trend within the last few years in my unit, not to recruit new officers directly, but instead to CFR (I couldn‘t honestly tell you whether this has been a unit policy, or if it has just worked out that way).  I that CFR and/or recruiting officers who are perhaps a bit older and wiser than the average university student is the best policy, particularly for the reserves.  I base that statement in large part upon the reserve trg capability issue which I described above.

Also, whether an attitude of disrespect for young officers is damaging or not, I think that you‘d have to admit that it is prevalent.  What I‘m suggesting is that this could perhaps be avoided if such inexperienced pers were not selected to become direct entry reserve officers in the first place.  In my own case, as I stated, I‘m very glad that I didn‘t join as an officer.  I would have been an idiot.


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## Michael OLeary (1 Mar 2004)

There is one significant hazard with the theory that officers should first spend time in the ranks. Let me pose a set of questions for you to consider (I offer them more in a rhetorical sense than as a challenge to respond):

Say you recruit and train six individuals to the rank of MCpl who all express an interest in accepting an officer‘s bitllet if offered. The unit has openings for three new officers. Which ones do you take? The three best leaders?  What does this then do to the NCO cadre of the unit if you consistently take the best young NCOs to the officers‘ mess? What if there is only room for three of the six on primary leadership training, do the course canacies go to the identified officer candidates, and no new MCpls hit the parade square that year?

It is best if the unit dedicates the effort to recruit and train young officers to be officers, and applies the available training time and courses for the development of NCOs for that purpose. Trained NCOs who are good at the job may actually be too valuable to the unit to be taken away to be commissioned. Perhaps even more so for the Reserves than the Regular Force, leadership course vacancies are too valuable to be consistently expended on people who will get that same training again.

This is not to say that unit‘s should not consider commissioning promising NCOs who have the potential and interest. But as a primary source it‘s just not necessarily a healthy working plan for the unit overall.

Recruiting and training inexperienced people is what we do, for the ranks, and for officers. It is our collective responsibility to ensure that both groups get the respect and training (both formal and by example within the unit) they need to help them develop into productive unit members.


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## willy (1 Mar 2004)

I agree with your point regarding the detrimental impact CFR can have on the junior leadership within a unit.  It is potentially problematic.  Within my unit, in the past year, we have had our best WO CFR, thereby "losing" him, and we now have a very good MCpl (second only to myself within the unit     ) in the process of getting his commission.  However, I would suggest that it is a larger problem for a unit to have completely inexperienced (read: incompetent) officers doing things like producing op orders, planning exercises, etc than it is for a unit to have completely inexperienced master corporals.  A bad officer can bring down the whole unit quite quickly; a bad jack usually only ruins his own det or section.  Hence my statement that perhaps older, wiser individuals might be recruited for officer positions, rather than the typical 18 year old undergraduate student.  

I suppose that what I take issue with is the fact that in the reserves (or in the units that I have been with at least) the vast majority of the junior ranks personnel are students.  Now I agree that an officer should be educated, but it seems a silly thing to base a commission on education alone when the whole unit is more or less on an even playing field in that respect.  What makes one of them better than another?  Only experience.

Please remember that when I made my initial post, I did so in response to a 15 year old expressing interest in becoming an officer.  Now, I don‘t mean to discourage the young guy, maybe he will be an officer one day, and a good one at that.  I‘m just a little tired of explaining to indignant teenagers that they probably won‘t get and might not even deserve a commission just because they are in college.  Thankfully, my unit has good, experienced officers, so there‘s no drastic need to commission such pers.  However, not all units are so lucky.  Last summer, I was in a position to see some Officer trg that was taking place.  That trg seems to me to have done little to transform an young officer candidate/college student into an individual more qualified than the young privates/college students who were there to take their apprentice trades trg.  Problematic or no, I think that the reserves benefit from any system that encourages the commissioning of pers who will make good officers right away, rather than having to nursemaid candidates through a few years of not being able to find thier *** with both hands, a flashlight, and a set of written directions.


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## Yes Man (2 Mar 2004)

Just a question, because I am one of those 19 year olds looking to become an officer. What do you think produces a better officer over all.  

1) Someone who has started out as an officer young, and has been in the position for years.

or

2) Someone who started in the ranks and only has been an officer for a short time.

Which one of these two cases would most likely be a better officer?

I realize that a MCpl who has been in the army for 5+ years would probably make a better officer than a new recruit, but would you think a person who has been an officer for 5 years would be better at their job than a MCpl? because if thats the case would it not be better just to start officers off as officers?


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## McInnes (2 Mar 2004)

If you join the ranks you‘ll know what being a troop is all about, and how officer‘s are viewed, ect, ect. Before you lead you need to follow kind of thing. You can always transfer, and there is nothing to lose in it.


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## Spr.Earl (2 Mar 2004)

> Originally posted by Mike Nagy:
> [qb] Ok, I‘ve asked just about everyone this and have heard all sorts of responces, so I think it‘s time to ask the people there themselves. Right now I‘m 15 years old. I was wondering if I would be able to make it if I finished grade 10 when I turn 16 and leave school to join reserves and live on base in Edmonton, Alberta. Then join the army as an Infantry Soldier when I‘m 17, and re-enroll back into school through a distance eduction program to finish my high school so I can rank up to a Infantry Officer. Would this be able to work in reality or am I just living in my own little dream world? [/qb]


Mike after reading all the post‘s here on the whole evey one‘s right.
STAY IN SCHOOL AND GET YOUR GRADE 12 THEN JOIN IF YOU FEEL IT‘S RIGHT!

Get your Education first!!!
Yes I have my 4th Class Marine Engineers ticket but after a lot of hard work because I have only a grade 10 education!!!

Yes folk‘s Spr.Earl has only a grade 10 education!

With out a good education you will go no where!!

I‘ve survived by being a jack of all trade‘s and yet a Master of none except the sea and ship‘s and my adopted Army Trade as an Engineer.
Yet today I‘ve forgotten more in my 28yrs now.

Mike stay in school and get your education first!!
Take it from me,I‘m 50 now and I regret my disregard to school now and wish I could do it all over again!

Stay in School and Graduate!!


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## miranda (5 Mar 2004)

This is a big topic WRT CFR loose an excellent WO/MCpl whatever to the dark side. It is important to CFR to help the young officers grow and learn to become great officers. Nobody is born into thier rank. Having the crse alone will not enable you , we also need experience. Leadership is style adapted to situations. Education is important but common sense gets you there.


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## clasper (5 Mar 2004)

> Originally posted by Yes Man:
> [qb] Just a question, because I am one of those 19 year olds looking to become an officer. What do you think produces a better officer over all.
> 
> 1) Someone who has started out as an officer young, and has been in the position for years.
> ...


I worked for young officers fresh out of RESO, and for grizzled veterans who CFR‘d.  The best officer I worked for in the reserves was actually neither.  He had spent the previous 4 years of his life obtaining his PhD at Oxford. (In history- Britain in the inter-war period of all things.)  The thing that distinguished him was his willingness to learn from his troops.  He had spent some time at RMC, so he was familiar with the military in general, and was well prepared to deal with the general administration of troops.  But he knew absolutely nothing about the unique world of EW.  Which he proceeded to learn from his NCO‘s.  He didn‘t learn everything we knew (we had several more years experience at it than he did) but he learned enough to make our jobs easier.  (Which was his goal.)

That absolute honesty with himself and with his troops is what made him a good officer.  It sounds easy to do, but it can be somewhat difficult once ego and "status" get in the way.


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## 1feral1 (5 Mar 2004)

In my opinion, good officers who develop into better officers are those that pay attention, and listen to and learn from their SNCOs and WOs.

Secondly, enlisted personnel have more time for officers who are not afraid to get dirty and work hard with their men if need be.

Thirdly good officers are usually the ones who spent some time in the ranks before deciding to CFR, although I have seen great oficers who either DEO, or come from ADFA style institutions.

Cheers,

Wes


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## Greywolf (9 Mar 2004)

Getting into an officer trade is very competitive.  I am 27 (almost 28) and originally applied for an officer position.  I have 2 Bachelor Degrees (and my GPA are pretty good too), 2 years of experience working in a supervisory role...but was not accepted for the trades I applied for because I was told I did not have the preferred degree. (They wanted a Business degree...I got a degree in psychology and another one in education).  So I decided to reapply for an NCM position, and right now I‘m still waiting for a reply (hopefully an offer soon).  I eventually hope to get into an officer position, and I‘m willing to put in a few years as a private...so I can get the experience necessary.   

Greywolf


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