# RHIP



## Navalsnpr (17 Apr 2005)

For those who haven't seen the acronym RHIP, it stands for Rank Has It's Privileges.

I wanted to start a discussion regarding the differences between the elements when certain items are "dished out". For example, in my Army days in West Germany, when we returned to Hohenfels after a couple of weeks in the field, there were always a tonne of line ups like Showers, Food & Pay to name a few. Anyways, we always formed up in single line with the Privates at the front of the line and the Company OC at the rear. If they ran out of water, food or cash, then the senior COC would do without. Makes pure sense to me to have the troops who break their backs get taken care of first.

Since my time in the Navy, I've noticed that in the Navy this normally is completely reversed. For example, trials were ongoing and the ship was able to allow 20-30 personnel go for early. It turned out that the only personnel to be able to go were Officers and Snr NCO's. Personally I agree with the Army way of doing business.

What are your thoughts?


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## Infanteer (17 Apr 2005)

I have always liked the Army way of doing things.  Leadership at any level involves putting your troops before yourself, so even the Corporal firing the young Private infront of them for chow is good leadership.


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## Cloud Cover (17 Apr 2005)

Sounds like the Navy I served in hasn't changed much. 

Here is a good example of the long standing problems with the Navy. In the 80's, the CO of our ship was getting married. We were all encouraged [ie threatened] by the XO not to object to the pilfering of mess funds to purchase a complete set of appliances as wedding gifts. It turned out later that some of the officers and the chiefs did object to the taking of funds from their mess accounts, and they basically left the JR mess to pick up virtually the entire tab. 

Another example is when fresh water on the steamers would run shy due to evap problems, the officers and chiefs would still take showers and send their laundry down to be cleaned, while the rest of us were cut off. 

A third example is shore leave events in foreign ports. When I was on HMAS Darwin, the EW dept was invited by the USN to an evening beach bbq while the ship was in Pearl. The BBQ was for JR EW/NESOP types throughout the entire RIMPAC force. I know the EW depts on Canadian ships were invited as well, because I saw the message. I went there with a bunch of AB from Darwin, expecting to run into my HMCS crew mates, instead the only Canadian pers who were there were chiefs and officers.  I would have thought that the LS and MS would have liked to attend, since I was only an AB at the time. Talk about keeping a low profile!!


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## backinblack (17 Apr 2005)

I prefer the Army way as well.  The men come first, that's what I was taught.


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## backinblack (17 Apr 2005)

What's the Airforce rule of thumb for this?


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## Navalsnpr (17 Apr 2005)

backinblack said:
			
		

> What's the Airforce rule of thumb for this?



Good question.

The Air Force tend to take care of all their ranks very well from what I observed in Shearwater and onboard the ship. 

We had an air crew MWO always pitch in during cleaning stations on one of the ships I was on. All I will say is Leadership by Example as none of the guys from the air det complained about doing cleaning stations.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (17 Apr 2005)

Wow, I had no idea that the "army" way wasn't "the" way. Here is a post from the Artillery thread from one of my old TSM's, 
Mrgnr27,

_Remember the day we were at Weston-On-The-Green doing the balloon jumps ? I specifically remember taking issue over the subalterns making a b-line for the box lunches BEFORE the troops. One of them pouted and punted his box lunch down range rather than give it up !_Oi !! The memories, mate !!
.http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/25655/post-157491.html#msg157491
.
.I must admit in the Artillery when it came to food the troops were first and woe to those who didn't subscribe to that theory.....


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## Inch (17 Apr 2005)

backinblack said:
			
		

> What's the Airforce rule of thumb for this?



In the MH world we take care of our guys, if we didn't, the fishheads would screw them around just like they do to their own men. Normally when we're disembarked we don't have much contact with the techs other than for starts and such. They work for the AEREs, the only NCMs that I work with are AESOps and they tend to be Sgts and above so they don't get the shaft that often, if ever.

The techs on the other hand, since we don't sail with an AERE, they fall under the Det Commander and the other 5 officers in the Det to look out for them when the fishheads are being dicks. I have yet to sail, but I've heard that it's happened on more than one occasion where a Capt took over painting from a Cpl so that the Cpl could go fix the helicopter. 

Kind of a unique situation, we're mutually dependant on each other to do our job, so there's next to zero screwing with the techs. The better they work, the more I get to go flying so it's in my best interest to help them anyway I can and in return they give me a serviceable helicopter to take flying.


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## backinblack (17 Apr 2005)

Thanks for the info Navalsnipr.   8)

Bruce, I have to agree that the Artillery have a strong "men come first" attitude - I served with the Artillery, and they put me through my JLC and LLQ Courses in Shilo (1992/1993).  

Come to think of it, even in Cornwallis, the Course Senior and Squad Seniors were last to eat, etc.

Cheers    ;D


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## backinblack (17 Apr 2005)

Inch,

Sounds like good old all-around cooperation to me.  Makes perfect sense.  8)


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## Cloud Cover (17 Apr 2005)

What really makes this comparison between the AF, the Army and the Navy especially ironic is that when you get right down to it, a ship is a floating artillery battery with a small patch of an airfield.


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## backinblack (17 Apr 2005)

:warstory: Where's the shellscrapes?   lol


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## x-grunt (18 Apr 2005)

I am kind of disturbed by this thread. My belief is the junior ranks are always cared for first. I considered this the SOP for the entire CF. Could it be this thread is highlighting the selfishness of a few? I sure hope so, esp. as I am re-enlisting MARS and a) I expect better things of the service b) I don't want to be seen as "screwing around my own men" (as Inch put it) simply because I wear black instead of green or blue!

Many moons ago, I sailed on Destroyers out east. And I also pounded ground for a few years, so I have some experience of each element. It seemed that the "men first, nco's second, officers last" rule was normally as valid at sea as elsewhere. Could things have changed that much?

In fact, the only time I have seen a truly selfish acting officer was when when I was in an infantry platoon, this dickhead would do things like obtain some steaks and beer for himself and the Pl. NCO's. while the troops made do with IRP's, or he'd get a ride to "scout the terrain" while we walked. In short, an A$$hole, and everyone knew it.


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## Ex-Dragoon (18 Apr 2005)

The Navy still has the RN mentality where it comes to RHIP. I have been on ships when at the end of the day the brow gets opened to officers first, then closed then opened to C&POs, closed again and then opened to MS and below. From when the Officers get to leave and MS and below get to leave you could be looking at 20-45 minutes. I have been on ships where pipes are made on the crew circuits during all hours of the day but rarely made on crew circuits. I have been on ships where you see awesome food being prepared in the galley but when it comes around to being served (MS and below) you end up getting stuff like corn beef hash. I have been on ships when you don't see a senior NCM or officer all day but during cleaning stations they magically appear walking all over the deck you just spent the last 20 minutes cleaning.The Army def treats their MCPL and below a lot better.


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## Inch (18 Apr 2005)

x-grunt,

The MARS "culture" is unlike anything else I've experienced since I joined the CF, both as a 17 year old reservist and a 20 year old regular officer. To put it bluntly, they eat their own, just think now how they'd treat their troops if they treat their peers like that.

When I took my Maritime Warfare basic course last fall, I was the only pilot, there were 2 AEREs and the rest were MARS and MARE. You could definitely tell the difference between the MARS and MAREs. The one example that sticks out in my head, our syndicate got chosen to present our plan for the mission we had (kinda like a war game scenario that every syndicate had to come up with a plan for). After our guy finished presenting, the other MARS officers started to pick it apart. I found it quite amusing since it was mostly our usage of air assets that they were picking apart, and besides me, our syndicate leader was a MH TACCO (each syndicate had someone who was staff at the warfare centre). So we utilized our air assets far more than any other syndicate and the other MARS officers weren't too happy that they hadn't thought of it first.

Don't get me wrong, there are some good MARS officers out there, but the rest of them are in competition with each other for a CO slot on one of the 12 FFHs which leads to a very poor situation for the NCMs.


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## x-grunt (18 Apr 2005)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> The Navy still has the RN mentality where it comes to RHIP. I have been on ships when at the end of the day the brow gets opened to officers first, then closed then opened to C&POs, closed again and then opened to MS and below.



Now that I think of it, I remember similar treatment when in Assiniboine, but not when I was in Algonquin. Maybe I was just used to it by then, or I was too young and naive to know different.


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## x-grunt (18 Apr 2005)

Inch said:
			
		

> x-grunt,
> 
> The MARS "culture" is unlike anything else I've experienced since I joined the CF, both as a 17 year old reservist and a 20 year old regular officer. To put it bluntly, they eat their own, just think now how they'd treat their troops if they treat their peers like that..



Buddy of mine flew Sea Kings off Huron for awhile. Gave me a great letter of reference for the CFRC. He's made some semi-neutral comments that now make me think he was trying to say the same thing.

I don't like it. Nope, don't like it at all. Thanks for the eye-opening thread.


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## winchable (18 Apr 2005)

Having been in or around (by proxy through my father) the navy for most of my life I'd like to jump in.

Inch is right about MARS officers for the most part, not all but many are in direct competition for CO spots so I've seen quite a few get so wrapped up in accelerating their own career (at the expense of others) they often forget that being an officer isn't about yourself and when not administrating and leading, their number one priority should be the welfare of their men.
It's all well and good to think about their own career (quite smart actually) but to transfer over that 'smart' selfishness when dealing with smaller tasks, like chow lines, is wrong.

As for RHIP, in the navy more than anywhere else you notice it.
Living accomodations, eating areas, general priviledge, there's a definite disparity between the two and I noticed that at 6 years old when I was visiting my dad on the Halifax so I can only imagine what the ranks think of it.
It's an outdated RN tradition, one can only imagine how bad it must be in the Royal Navy right now if we find ours unfair.
The navy more then any other force I'd wager, holds onto it's traditions so tightly and so dearly, perhaps because it's the oldest service-I'm not sure.

We tease the airforce pilots as being arrogant (how do you know when there's a pilot in the room?) but I would say that 70% of the other MARS officers were extremely arrogant.
I remember being 9 years old and listening to my dad and his MARE friends tear into the MARS officers for being snots, so it's nothing new.
That being said, just because everyone else is doing it doesn't mean you have to if you're an aspiring MARS officer and it's not ALL MARS officers by all means and the majority of CO's in the navy are MARS, it's the career-career if you know what I mean and by far one of the best and hardest to get into.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (18 Apr 2005)

Quote,
We tease the airforce pilots as being arrogant (how do you know when there's a pilot in the room?)

.......WELL??


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## aesop081 (18 Apr 2005)

Che said:
			
		

> We tease the airforce pilots as being arrogant (how do you know when there's a pilot in the room?)



How do you know a pilot is half way trough his conversation ?

When he says " enough about me , lets talk about my airplane" !!


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## Bruce Monkhouse (18 Apr 2005)

With apoligies to Navalsnipr, I think I will move this to the "main" forum, this seems to be drawing more than just the Navy types.......


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## PJ D-Dog (18 Apr 2005)

When I was in the Artillery, it was the junior ranks who eat first as well.  The only time when a the line was reversed was at pay parade.  The officers, followed by Sr NCO, NCOs and then the men.  I assume this dates back to the days where the officers used part of their pay to pay the men.

In the Marines, it's the same.  The troops first, then the leadership element last.

PJ D-Dog


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## Navalsnpr (18 Apr 2005)

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> a ship is a floating artillery battery with a small patch of an airfield.



Good observation... I may want to use that one day!!

Back to the discussion at hand though. 

I did a cross-pole in '97 with the HMS London and the separation between the messes is still there today. Walking by th Wardroom during the tour, I noticed that steaks were being prepared. Well I piped up and stated that steaks were good for me. The tour guy looked at me weird and indicated that they never get food like that in their mess (MS & B). Sure enough we ended up eating stew or something.

Another point about rations onboard ships is that the Officers do pay for "extra rations" to get extra food during their meal hours. 99.9% of the time they eat the same as everyone else, but have additional garnishes or side dishes.

Unfortunately the few who step on the little, make a bad name for the many. 

I'll say this one again and again... Leadership by Example

Bruce.... No offence taken!


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## AmmoTech90 (18 Apr 2005)

As this has been moved out to general, I think I'll thow out an observation that this is not only limited the CF or the RN.  Perusing a British Military PMQ application is quite the eye opener...
As a NCM I am not entitled to the following in a furnished PMQ: Bureau, Chair Elbow Block, Dressing Table, Chest of Drawers, Table Hall, Table Nest of 3, Table Desk Study.  Officers also have a different Chair Dining.  If I was a WO1 (CWO) I would be allowed to share the Chair Elbow Greenb (?) with the officers.

This is "tri-service" form, put out by their equivalent of CFHA.

Of course the fact that they will furnish PMQs is bonus all in itself.


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## SeaKingTacco (18 Apr 2005)

> Another point about rations onboard ships is that the Officers do pay for "extra rations" to get extra food during their meal hours. 99.9% of the time they eat the same as everyone else, but have additional garnishes or side dishes.



Navalsniper-

I wasn't clear from the above if you were still refering to Brit ships, or have switched back to ours.  Just to clear the air, having been the member of 4 Wardrooms in 5 years on the West Coast, I can state pretty categorically that whatever was on the menu in the main cave and the C&POs was also on the menu in the wardroom. I'm pretty sure of this because, being aircrew, my flights often don't work out with the wardroom schedule so it is frequently more convienent for me to get food from the steam line. Same quality (maybe even a bit warmer) at the steam line, every time. I have never paid for "extra rations".  Possibly, some of our salad combinations are different, because the Stewards make them- don't know for sure.  Really, the only difference is the table service (which is often not worth the trouble).  Just to be clear on another point- no one makes my bed, my cabin is only occasionally vacuumed out.  Yeah, someone else cleans the wardroom heads, other than me.  On the other hand, I also write PERS, receive and send endless message traffic daily, ensure training and flights happen each day on time and within the regulations (of which there are thousands- most of which I must know from memory or near memory), lead my own crew, plan my own flights, stay one step ahead of the Captain, worry about the weather, worry about the maintenance state of the aircraft and how it will affect training and operations, make sure that the Chief and the techs are getting taken care of, etc, etc, etc.  It is safe to say that I get less sleep than anyone else on a Det, with the exception of the Chief.  I apologize to all of you if I don't feel bad that I don't have to clean toilets, too.

I have seen poor leadership decisions onboard Ships where some officers felt that they didn't have to land gash or store ship IF THEY WERE NOT OTHERWISE OCCUPIED. For them, I apologise. I have also seen the troopies complaining (as I am humping a 50 lb bag of potatos beside them) that "the wardroom is lazy because Lt so-and-so is not here", when I know full well that he or she is dealing with some Ops problem or is sorting out a flight home for someone whose wife is sick.  My point?  Sometimes, some of us in the military have different levels of responsibility, depending on our position or rank.  Sometimes, the guys in the Main Cave are not in the possession of all the facts.

Cheers.


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## Navalsnpr (18 Apr 2005)

Navalsnipr said:
			
		

> Another point about rations onboard ships is that the Officers do pay for "extra rations" to get extra food during their meal hours.



This example came from STJ. I've heard this from a few stewards, so I imagine from your comment that it probably occurs on some, but not all ships.

I must echo your comment about Air Det Officers. From my experience, you will normally always see them pitching in to do the grunt work unless other duties have them otherwise employed.

All ship are different and the Command make up and attitude will determine the dynamics onboard.


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## SeaKingTacco (19 Apr 2005)

> This example came from STJ.



Wow.  First time heard of that in Canada.  Must be an East Coast thing...

Cheers.


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## childs56 (19 Apr 2005)

We had one MBdr decide to go to the front of the line during meal hour ahead of the recruits. We just watched as we had warned him before, the TSM seen him and lets say gave him an earfull about how the troops come first. I found the Artillery to look after its troops first when it comes to services such as food and such. I am glad to have learned what Leadership meant from the TSM's and BSM's i have worked with. The respect of not walking on the Grass ans such is still ingrained into me.


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## PPCLI MCpl (19 Apr 2005)

Whenever someone metions "RHIP" I respond with "RHIR"   Anyone care to venture a guess as to its meaning? 

P.S.  It's my 100th Post, maybe it's time for me to start getting a little saucy...


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## dw_1984 (20 Apr 2005)

Responsibilities?


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