# revocation of commission



## Furtry (26 Jun 2012)

Where would I find the rules and regulations governing the removal of the Queen's commission from an officer? Thus far I've searched through the QR&O's and everything else I could think of, and other than references to williams loosing his commission, there is nothing referencing under what authority/rules/regulations/condition this can done. any help would be appreciated, thx.


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## bridges (26 Jun 2012)

While you're waiting for an answer, there's a brief mention of this in Art. 104.10 Reduction in Rank, only to say that the punishment of reduction in rank _does not_ involve removing the commission.  Just in case that helps in terms of context.  104.10(2)(b)


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## Ostrozac (26 Jun 2012)

Voluntarily giving up your commission is covered under QR&O 11.12. I have seen this happen twice. Both of the occasions that I am personally aware of where members applied to relinquish their commissions were CIC Officers who CT'd to the Regular Force, one as an Infantry NCM, and one as an ROTP OCdt. I am sure there are other examples.


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## fraserdw (26 Jun 2012)

Seen this abit in the 80s at the Infantry School, usually on Phase 3.  Individuals would decide it was not for them, give up their commission and get posted to a battalion as a Cpl to complete their serivce.  Some went on to become Snr NCOs, most seemed to have released that completing their contract.  Most still went the classification change route but there was always 2 or 3 that went NCM.  Of course, we put alot of officers through the system back then with huge failure rates; 6 to 9 courses of Phase 3 alone.


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## bridges (26 Jun 2012)

The OP's question sounded like it was more about the CF taking the commission away, than the member giving it up.

The DND internal & external news releases around the time of the event the OP alluded to say that it's a rare (possibly unique) event, and that the GG has authority to remove the commission.  Not sure if this is explicitly reflected in the NDA - it's not immediately appearing in my searches.  No doubt DND/CF LA staff were consulted at the time.


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## Blackadder1916 (26 Jun 2012)

If you're looking for specific details about procedures for revoking removing a commission from an officer, it is unlikely that you will find anything with the title "revocation of commission".  In cases other that an officer voluntarily relinquishing his commission in order to serve as an NCM, what you need to read is QR&Os Chap 15 - Release.  Unless an officer voluntarily relinquishes his commission, his service in the CF and his "commission" are not separate items.  When an officer releases (voluntarily, administratively or booted out the door) his commission is terminated.  Since the commission is a direct link between the Sovereign and the officer, that is why the approving authority for release of commissioned officers is the Governor-General.



> 15.01 - RELEASE OF OFFICERS AND NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS
> 
> (1) An officer or non-commissioned member may be released, during his service, only in accordance with this article and the table hereto.
> 
> ...


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## JSR OP (26 Jun 2012)

bridges said:
			
		

> The OP's question sounded like it was more about the CF taking the commission away, than the member giving it up.
> 
> The DND internal & external news releases around the time of the event the OP alluded to say that it's a rare (possibly unique) event, and that the GG has authority to remove the commission.  Not sure if this is explicitly reflected in the NDA - it's not immediately appearing in my searches.  No doubt DND/CF LA staff were consulted at the time.



We had this happen in our office last year.  One of our OJT officers was initially enrolled as an Air Traffic Control Officer (I don't remember the specific trade Name).  Long story short, she didn't pass.  The powers that be tried to make her a signals officer, but and degrees she held, didn't qualify her.  I forget what her job choices were that she was offered to keep her commission were, one of them being infantry officer I think...  Anyhow, she didn't want either, so she ended up going Geo Tech.  2Lt one day, Pte(B) the next.


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## Furtry (26 Jun 2012)

This is a situation of a capt being recommended for a COT to the ranks. Hence the question, under what authority can this be done? I'm researching with no luck. He has not done anything illegal.


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## Eye In The Sky (26 Jun 2012)

Nothing illegal seems to imply this person is a trg failure pre-OFP (or whatever OFP is called in Officer-land  ;D)?

Might help if you can atleast add what the circumstances are surrounding this, OPSEC considerations of course.


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## Blackadder1916 (26 Jun 2012)

Furtry said:
			
		

> This is a situation of a capt being recommended for a COT to the ranks. Hence the question, *under what authority can this be done*? I'm researching with no luck. He has not done anything illegal.



Unless things have changed since my service, there is no authority to compulsorily strip an officer of his commission and retain him in the service (remove the commission and he gets booted out).  This also begs the question.  If he is incompetent as an officer (and doesn't want to be an OR), why would anyone want to retain him in the CF?

_edited to add_

Is this officer still on a period of obligatory service?  If so, then I understand.  I don't know how common it is now, but (back in the dark ages) there was more than one occasion when this question was raised in respect of physicians who did everything they could to get booted out after having med school and residency paid for.


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## Eye In The Sky (26 Jun 2012)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Unless things have changed since my service, there is no authority to compulsorily strip an officer of his commission and retain him in the service (remove the commission and he gets booted out).  This also begs the question.  If he is incompetent as an officer (and doesn't want to be an OR), why would anyone want to retain hin in the CF?



Obligatory service perhaps?


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## Ostrozac (26 Jun 2012)

From everything that I've seen, it is perfectly normal to require an untrained member to serve out their obligatory service at their current rank. Whether that rank be OCdt, 2Lt or even Captain. Asfor the various flavours of compulsory occupational transfer, they do not include a provision for reduction to NCM status. As with the previous example of an untrained officer becoming a Geo Tech, most likely the officer consented, making it a voluntary relinquishing of commission. If the member does not want to lose his/her commission, it can't be forced. 

Even officers that are sentenced to lengthy prison terms under QR&O 104.05 are only liable to reduction to the rank of 2Lt. There is no  provision for reduction to Pte.

What the system can force is a release.


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## Furtry (26 Jun 2012)

The question and situation is not clear cut, but what I am trying to determine if it can be forced. Going by what has been said, no he can't be forced administratively. The capt is being called into question based on a combination of suitability and competence. Arguments are being made that he should give up his commission based on that he is not suitable to be an officer as his competence is not up to what is standard. Ultimately looks like he is being forced out as he will not relinquish his commission. Polotics of the worst kind I guess. 

I Thank to the forum for their input.


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## aesop081 (26 Jun 2012)

Furtry said:
			
		

> Polotics of the worst kind I guess.



If he is unsuitable and not competent, how is that "politics of the worst kind" ?


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## Furtry (26 Jun 2012)

But in that is the argument, he is competent but very much disliked because he will not toe the party line.


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## aesop081 (26 Jun 2012)

Furtry said:
			
		

> But in that is the argument, he is competent but very much disliked because he will not toe the party line.



I do not toe the party line and many higher ups dislike me intensely yet there is no stampede to get rid of me.  You'll have to excuse me but there is more to your guy's story. 

I have been involved in trying to get rid of people who needed to be rid of, it is a painful and difficult process where everything has to be justified and bulletproof. Not something you start just because you don't like a guy.


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## Furtry (26 Jun 2012)

Why is it the presumption of guilt? Those in command are not impervious, they too can make mistakes. Other than that I can't discuss an ongoing administrative process. Again thanks for the info. I now know what the possibilities are. Release, fight, or accept the COT to the ranks. I'll advise accordingly.


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## SeaKingTacco (26 Jun 2012)

There is no presumption at your dude is guilty. It is just that we tend to frequently see posters who start a thread on how "a friend" is getting a raw deal (and seeking free, internet advice from random strangers) only to find out about 10 pages down thread that quite a few important details ( like the truth) we're left out.

Call us jaded...


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## Furtry (27 Jun 2012)

No wasn't looking for free advise. Looking for regulations regarding the removal of a commission. Now I know there isn't one. He will be forced out if he refuses the COT to the ranks. The truth is irrelevant to my original question. So is this conversation from this point on. Thx for your time.


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## exabedtech (27 Jun 2012)

Quite a sad situation his "friend" is in... Hope his "friend" learns to play well with others in the future.   :2c:


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## captloadie (27 Jun 2012)

Unless the Capt in question was a Special CFR or a in a specialist trade he was obviously competent enough to pass trades training (at least in some MOC). As a GSO, that is the only way to get promotion to CAPT rank. I am amazed that the CoC would even consider a COT to an NCM occupation. If he does his job, but is just disliked, he will eventually be posted. If he can't do his job, the CoC has to do it's job and continue the administrative process to the point a AR is recommended/completed.


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