# Navy war graves ( merged )



## jollyjacktar (30 Jul 2012)

Hope they take them up on it.  Good photos at story link.  Kudo's to Mr. Allen   



> The hunt for HMS Hood's bell: Billionaire offers to fund recovery so that it can be a memorial to 1,415 crew who drowned when warship was sunk by the Bismarck in 1941By Anna Edwards
> PUBLISHED: 18:41 GMT, 29 July 2012 | UPDATED: 09:09 GMT, 30 July 2012
> 
> A US billionaire has offered to lead an operation to recover the bell of the sunken battle cruiser HMS Hood, which was sunk in 1941 and killed 1,415 men, for free.
> ...


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## Edward Campbell (30 Jul 2012)

I disagree.

Sunken warships are, themselves, "hallowed ground" and should be left as is. 

There are other, better ways to memorialize those killed in action at sea.

This is, without putting too fine a point on it, nothing more than grave robbing. It may be tied up in a memorial ribbon but it is still plain, simple grave robbing. The UK authorities should know better.


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## jollyjacktar (30 Jul 2012)

The wreck would not be disturbed as the bell is off to the side and already located.  As a Sailor, I agree HOOD is hallowed ground.  However, I would like to see her bell raised and saved for future generations.  The dead will remain where they lay and not be disturbed.


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## Occam (30 Jul 2012)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> The wreck would not be disturbed as the bell is off to the side and already located.  As a Sailor, I agree HOOD is hallowed ground.  However, I would like to see her bell raised and saved for future generations.  The dead will remain where they lay and not be disturbed.



As a former sailor, I would agree with you.  If the HMS Hood Association has given the nod, then I think it's being done right.


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## Edward Campbell (30 Jul 2012)

I am afraid I cannot be persuaded. My opinion is that HOOD, all of it, should remain undisturbed for some defined (long) period (200 years? 300?), after which underwater archaeologists from accredited academic institutions should be allowed access. I think that rule should apply to the sites of all Commonwealth ships that were lost in battle. I think it is impossible to do it "right" so soon after the fact.


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## BernDawg (30 Jul 2012)

FWIW: 
I believe that a ships bell holds a special place in the hearts of all sailors and as it's not within the wreckage and it will be used as a memorial for the Hood, I agree with the association. Recover it with all the tact and dignity it deserves and mount it in a place of honour to serve as a reminder and memorial where all people have access to it to pay their respects.


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## Fishbone Jones (30 Jul 2012)

All I'll say is that if it can bring the slightest sense of closure to the families and shipmates, by displaying it, bring it up. Let them touch it and connect a bit more with those they lost.


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## jollyjacktar (30 Jul 2012)

BernDawg said:
			
		

> FWIW:
> I believe that a ships bell holds a special place in the hearts of all sailors and as it's not within the wreckage and it will be used as a memorial for the Hood, I agree with the association. Recover it with all the tact and dignity it deserves and mount it in a place of honour to serve as a reminder and memorial where all people have access to it to pay their respects.


Yes, you've hit it right on the head.  A ship's bell is special, and if I was to pick one part of a ship above all others it is the bell.  The bell is the focal point of the ship, her voice so to speak and much more.  I don't expect you,E.R., as a Soldier to fully appreciate this except to say it's the equivalent for a ship's company to say a Regiment's colours for her troops.  HOOD should be allowed to return to the earth over time, but her bell?  No.  We'll agree to disagree on this one.


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## SeaKingTacco (31 Jul 2012)

Mr Campbell has more of an appreciation of the gravity of this than any of you can possibly imagine.

And it has nothing to do with what service he was with.

Try googling HMCS LOUISBURG.


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## Halifax Tar (31 Jul 2012)

Its just two opinions lads let it go. 

Pipe the side for the Mighty Hood! 

ER, I googled HMCS LOUISBURG, I just want to say from one sailor to the son (I assume son correct me if I am wrong) of another I appreciate the sacrifice your father made while in command of _LOUISBURG_. 

Pipe the side and half mast the ensign!


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## Ex-Dragoon (31 Jul 2012)

My personal opinion is if I was lost at sea and the bell could be recovered I would want it so,  A empty grave marker is just that, empty. With the bell, something I have touched, cleaned, rang etc would provide a degree of closure for my loved ones. My 2 cents.


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## Jarnhamar (31 Jul 2012)

It may seem far fetched but I think it would be pretty neat if they brought the bell up and placed it on a brand new battle cruiser, say the HMS Hood II or something.

I would rather see something like the ships bell used, again, in service and duty than resting in a museum.  I wonder how many of the fallen would want to see the ships bell used again too.


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## Retired AF Guy (31 Jul 2012)

Correct if I'm wrong, but isn't the modern theory that the HMS Hood was actually sunk by the Prinz Eugen, not the Bismarck??


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## daftandbarmy (31 Jul 2012)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Correct if I'm wrong, but isn't the modern theory that the HMS Hood was actually sunk by the Prinz Eugen, not the Bismarck??



Here are seven options.


1) Official Explanation:  The British held two inquiries into the Hood's loss.  The first was quite brief, reporting on 2 June 1941, less than two weeks after the Hood was sunk.  The second was much longer and detailed, taking testimony from 89 witnesses from the Norfolk, 71 from the Prince of Wales, 14 from the Suffolk, 2 from the Hood and from numerous technical experts.  This inquiry reported on 12 September 1941.  Both inquiries concluded that the cause of the Hood's loss was not from the Cordite fire on the boat deck, but from one or two 15 inch shells which pierced through the thin amidships deck armor (or possibly the side belt), set off the four inch magazine which in turn set off the after 15 inch magazine. 

2) A 15 inch hit that struck the ship underwater, penetrated under the armor belt and detonated in the aft 15 inch magazine. 

3) An 8 inch (20.3 cm) or a 15 inch hit on the boatdeck that started a major fire in the four inch ready-use and UP lockers.  This gangfired down the four inch ammunition hoists, detonated the four inch magazines, which in turn then set off the aft 15 inch magazine. 

4) The fire on the boatdeck as above, but it detonated the torpedo storage and that in turn blew the aft 15 inch magazine.  This theory was advanced by the head of the Director of Naval Construction (DNC), Sir Stanley Goodall (who, together with A. L. Attwood, had been in charge of the Hood's design while he was a constructor).   A problem with both this and the previous theory is that the fires on the Boat Deck were reported to be dying down by both the witnesses on the Prince of Wales and by Able Seaman Tilburn, the only Hood survivor from the Boat Deck.  It is possible that a second fire was burning unseen (to outside observers) down in the torpedo body room, but no such report reached the bridge in the four minutes between the time of the first hit and the time of the Hood's destruction. 

5) As a result of the lessons the British learned at Jutland - where three British Battlecruisers blew up from German shellfire - the Hood was redesigned while still under construction to increase her armor protection.  This design work was poorly done, resulting in a badly stressed hull.  So, at the Denmark Strait battle, the fire on the boatdeck as above may have set the torpedoes on fire.  This would have created a very hot fire that could have weakened the strength deck, causing stress levels (already critical) to pass the danger point.  The result was that the ship simply broke in half.  As the ship broke up, the fire penetrated into the magazines, which then exploded. 

6) Just before leaving on her last voyage, the crew had been working to correct a defect in one of the Hood's magazine hydraulic systems. It was stopping just short of the proper level needed to lift  cartridges into the loading position.  It is unknown if this fault was completely corrected.  This problem, if unrepaired or with the turret crew, in the stress of battle, working without all safety precautions in place, could have caused a cartridge, and instantly thereafter the magazine, to explode. 

7) A 15 inch shell struck the belt armor, skidded down the inclined face of the plating, and then exploded in the bilges.  The flash and blast got propagated through the ship's belly into the aft magazine.  This sounds odd, but there was some testing done in the late 1920s that might support the idea.  These showed that inwardly inclined armor may indeed deflect a shell in the manner suggested, with the result that the shell would explode in a very dangerous position - under the armor belt and inside the anti-torpedo protection system.  Apparently, the concerns about this possibility were enough to cause the DNC to abandon inclined armor for the King George V, Lion and Vanguard class battleships. 

Nasty point about Theories 3, 4 and 5 is that the damage that sank the Hood would have been inflicted by the Prinz Eugen.  So, ironically, a battlecruiser designed and built to destroy cruisers was instead destroyed by a cruiser. 

http://digilander.libero.it/shinano/sitocorazzate/GranBretagna/Hood/history.htm


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## Fishbone Jones (31 Jul 2012)

Nice bit of trivia.

Let's try keep the thread on track though shall we?

Milnet.ca Staff


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## Ex-Dragoon (31 Jul 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> It may seem far fetched but I think it would be pretty neat if they brought the bell up and placed it on a brand new battle cruiser, say the HMS Hood II or something.
> 
> I would rather see something like the ships bell used, again, in service and duty than resting in a museum.  I wonder how many of the fallen would want to see the ships bell used again too.



Sadly cruisers are going the way of the dodo the last ones built were the Tico's and some Soviet Cold War designs, although the Burkes and Daring classes could be considered cruisers if you want to stretch things.


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## Edward Campbell (23 Apr 2015)

This, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from _The Telegraph_, is a dreadful thing:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/malaysia/11556924/Wreck-of-HMS-Repulse-rigged-with-scrap-metal-merchants-explosives.html


> Wreck of HMS Repulse 'rigged with scrap metal merchants' explosives'
> *Divers cut fuses attached to home-made bombs in an effort to protect war grave off Malaysia*
> 
> By Julian Ryall, Tokyo
> ...




I hope these guys are caught and tried and convicted in Singapore ... where flogging is still a normal punishment for many offences.







Edit: punctuation  :-[  (I've been drummed out of the CIC ~ Committee for an Independent Comma)


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## jollyjacktar (23 Apr 2015)

Despite our disagreement on saving Hood's Bell from the deep, I agree with you, ER, that this is a shameful thing.


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## Fishbone Jones (23 Apr 2015)

Right there with you ER.

Absolutely shameful.


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## Shrek1985 (3 May 2015)

There is actually a treaty protecting nautical wargraves from salvage. Which, naturally only works if everyone signs it, as the aussies recently found out with HMAS Melbourne IIRC.


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## OldSolduer (3 May 2015)

There's something very disturbing about grave robbing. As ER has stated maybe a good public caning would encourage others to cease and desist this horrible practice.


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## jollyjacktar (10 Aug 2015)

The bell has been raised from the wreck and will be put on public display for all to see.  I know, ER, you're opposed and I respect your views but I don't share them.  I'm pleased that her bell will be a tangible reminder of HOOD and her crew for future generations and not lost forever.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3191677/HMS-Hood-s-bell-lifted-Atlantic-seabed-74-years-sunk-battle-leading-death-1-415-navy-personnel.html


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## jollyjacktar (24 May 2016)

An update.  The bell has been publically displayed to commemorate her loss 75 years ago.   

Photos of the ceremony as well as the recovery etc at story link below.



> *Remembering HMS Hood: Bell of battlecruiser sunk 75 years ago in Royal Navy's biggest ever disaster retrieved from the seabed by Microsoft founder Paul Allen is formally unveiled by Princess Royal
> *The bell from HMS Hood has been unveiled by the Princess Royal 75 years after the ship was sunk by the Bismarck
> Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen had funded expedition to retrieve bell from seabed between Iceland and Greenland
> Ceremony watched by descendants of some of 1,415 sailors who died when battleship hit by German vessel in 1941
> ...


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## FSTO (2 Jan 2018)

Good on this retired Merchant Mariner to raise awareness on this issue.

http://nationalpost.com/news/sunken-warships-are-the-ultimate-treasure-unless-canada-can-protect-ocean-graves#comments-area

This seems like a simple fix to a potential issue.

*Recent reports from Ireland that scuba-diving treasure hunters are pillaging the remains of a First World War shipwreck have brought new urgency to a campaign to designate Canada’s own sunken naval vessels “ocean war graves.”

Led by retired Merchant Navy Captain Paul Bender, 90, the campaign has had little success over the last decade, except to show that when it comes to protecting the final resting places of wartime sailors, Canada is the odd country out.

But as sport diving becomes more advanced and less costly,  nine wartime ships in Canadian waters —  most sunk by German U-boats, others by accident — are increasingly vulnerable to grave robbers. Captain Bender said he has even heard rumours of someone displaying a human skull on their mantlepiece after taking it from an allied shipwreck off the west coast of England.

“It’s gruesome,” he said.

As Captain Bender describes it, “the human remains of the sailors who were not able to escape into lifeboats or onto life rafts may be found not in segregated grave sites, but anywhere within the twisted wreckage of the ship in which they once served, perhaps scattered throughout the ship, perhaps huddled together in one or more compartments with no hope of escape because buckled bulkheads prevent the opening of watertight doors.”


“There is no headstone among the flowers for those who perish at sea,” he said.

War memorials sometimes say these sailors have “no known graves, adds Capt. Bender. “Well, they certainly do, because I’ve got the latitude and longitude position of every one of the Royal Canadian Navy ships that were lost during the Second World War.


HMCS Alberni, circa 1943-1944. National Defence
“So they do have known graves. We know where they are.”

They are in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, for example, or off the Gaspé coast, or near Halifax, or on the Grand Banks. In all, including wrecks in British, French, Icelandic and international waters, Capt. Bender says Canada’s wartime ocean shipwrecks are the final resting place for more than 1,200 people.

“For all you and I know at the very moment that we’re talking there could be divers going down there and taking things from them,” he said. Designating these ships graves “would give the government the power to prosecute people who, without authority, attempt to retrieve artifacts from these ships.”

This past summer, for example, when naval researchers led by Paul Allen of Microsoft discovered the wreck of the USS Indianapolis in the Philippine Sea, they knew they were discovering an official war grave, protected by U.S. law from disturbance. That designation governed all aspects of their mission.

In response to Capt. Bender’s inquiries, France has confirmed that the wreck of Canada’s HMCS Athabaskan, which lies off the Brittany coast, is likewise protected from disturbance under French law, with offenders subject to imprisonment.

‘It’s grave robbing’: Treasure hunters suspected to have looted infamous 1915 shipwreck
Sunken Second World War battleship — and grave to more than 300 sailors — has been illegally salvaged
“We can’t do that in Canada because we don’t have any laws,” Capt. Bender said. “If the state doesn’t have any laws, there’s nothing that the state can do if people say ‘Well, to hell with you … I’m gonna do what I want.’”

The U.K. maintains a list of protected and controlled wrecks under a 1986 law, which even includes enemy vessels, such as German U-boats. But the Second World War wrecks of three Canadian corvettes in British waters — the HMCS Alberni, Trentonian and Regina — do not share the same protection.

“They’re all in the same place, friends and enemies. The enemies are protected, the friends are not,” Capt. Bender said.


Ret. Merchant Navy Captain Paul Bender, 90, photographed surrounded by images of ships at his Ottawa home Tuesday, Dec. 19, 2017. Bender is campaigning to designate wartime shipwrecks as Âocean war graves,Â a special heritage designation. Darren Brown/National Post
Vice-Admiral Denis Rouleau, a retired naval commander and former Vice-Chief of the Defence Staff, has helped in the campaign by briefing the government, but “nobody really wanted to grab his torch.”

He said the three Canadian ships were almost added to Britain’s list last year based on Capt. Bender’s recommendation, but Britain wanted a formal government request. It got as far as the British Defence attaché waiting for the nod from Global Affairs Canada, which never came.

“We never got any further than that,” Vice-Admiral Rouleau said. Capt. Bender was “stopped in his tracks.”

Shipwrecks in general are managed by Transport Canada. As to military wrecks, the Department of National Defence says it plays no role in heritage designation. Parks Canada does, and it administers wrecks within Canadian waters, as well as advising other departments about protecting and managing what a spokesperson called “heritage wrecks.”

There is no cost to have these ships declared as ocean war graves because they are already set up as burial sites

   
There is, however, no Canadian heritage designation specific to “ocean war graves,” and the designations that exist for some wreck sites, such as the Elizabeth and Mary in the St. Lawrence,  or others associated with the war of 1812, are “for commemorative purposes only,” according to Parks Canada.

Bender, 90, joined the Merchant Navy four days before his 16th birthday in 1944. Two weeks later, he was aboard a ship when it hit a mine, although it sunk with no loss of life. He later served on ships crossing the Atlantic, supplying the campaigns in Italy, Greece and the former Yugoslavia. After the war, he participated in the British naval blockade of Mandatory Palestine. He has a graduate degree in maritime law, and has served on a delegation to NATO. In 1971, he set up a ferry service between Prince Edward Island and the Magdalen Islands.

“There is no cost to have these ships declared as ocean war graves because they are already set up as burial sites,” he said. “You can’t maintain them. It’s just a matter of recognizing them in the same way as cemeteries.”

More than just a symbolic designation, he said a legal recognition of ocean war graves would “put the loss of sailors on the same plane as the loss of soldiers and airmen.”

*


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## ModlrMike (2 Jan 2018)

If only there were a Liberal MP who happened to be a serving naval reservist to champion this issue.


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## SeaKingTacco (2 Jan 2018)

Or a Liberal Cabinet Minister who served in the Reg F Navy....


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## Rifleman62 (2 Jan 2018)

In a recent National Geographic TV program (_Titanic: 20 Years Later With James Cameron_), James Cameron stated that the Titanic wreck is surrounded by footwear. The bones of the dead disintegrated, but the footwear remains due to the tannic acids use in footwear mfg. Mention of a women's shoes and a little girl's shoes found together in a cabin. Very eerie.

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/videos/why-you-wont-find-bodies-on-the-titanic/
*
WHY YOU WON'T FIND BODIES ON THE TITANIC*
_Explorer Bob Ballard explains why shoes are all that's left of many Titanic passengers._


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## Blackadder1916 (2 Jan 2018)

I would have thought it a given that some form of attention is paid to this issue by the Canadian Government bureaucracy.  It's not something new and despite a general impression among many of the usual suspects on these means that the government is apathetic at best in memorializing those who have provided the last full measure, there must be some small recognition.  Well, this is the only thing I found.

From the Receiver of Wrecks FAQ page



> Question: What should a salvor not salvage and why?
> 
> Answer: Wrecks of historical or archaeological significance: Do not disturb wrecks that have historical or heritage value to Canadians.  Some wrecks may be legally protected as cultural or heritage resources under provincial, territorial, federal legislation depending on their location.
> 
> ...



And that's all.  A somewhat wishy-washy response.  Nothing more (anywhere that I could find) about which vessels (if any) have been designated or what "legislative authorities" offer protection.


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## jollyjacktar (2 Jan 2018)

I know it's controversial to some members here who have lost family at sea to think a piece might be removed from the wreck, such as Hood's bell.  

As a current sailor, l am pleased to see that some of Hood will survive the ravages of time and will remind people of her and her crew forever more.

Perhaps it is because they, our wrecks, the HMS Hood or even USS Indianapolis are still within living memory that it is upsetting.  To bring Mary Rose or CSS Hunley to the surface for preservation and display doesn't cause a stir and yet they still are war graves.  But this will also ensure they will remind people as well.  
As I've said before, if l was a crewmember of a lost vessel, it would please me to think a bit would/could be saved to remind others of me, my ship and her crew.


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## ModlrMike (2 Jan 2018)

I have no issue with artifacts being recovered on an official basis for commemorative purposes. I have a completely opposite perspective on scavengers who would retrieve articles from a wreck for their own selfish pleasure or profit.


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## mariomike (2 Jan 2018)

Opinions vary,



			
				E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Sunken warships are, themselves, "hallowed ground" and should be left as is.
> 
> There are other, better ways to memorialize those killed in action at sea.
> 
> This is, without putting too fine a point on it, nothing more than grave robbing. It may be tied up in a memorial ribbon but it is still plain, simple grave robbing. The UK authorities should know better.


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## FSTO (2 Jan 2018)

I just mailed a letter to my local MP (Christina McKenna) asking her to take a look at this matter. They say that handwritten letters get more notice than emails. We shall see.


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## jollyjacktar (2 Jan 2018)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I have no issue with artifacts being recovered on an official basis for commemorative purposes. I have a completely opposite perspective on scavengers who would retrieve articles from a wreck for their own selfish pleasure or profit.


Totally agree.


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## FSTO (4 Apr 2018)

Its now been 3 months since I sent my letter to my MP. No reply (email or otherwise), my next move is to stroll over to the constituency office and see if they actually care if people hand write a letter to them.


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## jollyjacktar (4 Apr 2018)

This past week l have the pleasure of viewing the Franklin Expedition exhibition at the Canadian History Museum.  There were some actual items on display from the ships and other sites associated with Franklin.  One, is the ship's bell from HMS EREBUS.

Seeing her bell only cements my personal opinion that saving it for future generations to learn of the ship and her crew, is the right thing to do.  To have it lost for all time and by doing so lessen the connection to them is folly if it can be saved.  All items were treated and displayed with respect, it did not feel like a ghoul show.


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## FSTO (4 Apr 2018)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> This past week l have the pleasure of viewing the Franklin Expedition exhibition at the Canadian History Museum.  There were some actual items on display from the ships and other sites associated with Franklin.  One, is the ship's bell from HMS EREBUS.
> 
> Seeing her bell only cements my personal opinion that saving it for future generations to learn of the ship and her crew, is the right thing to do.  To have it lost for all time and by doing so lessen the connection to them is folly if it can be saved.  All items were treated and displayed with respect, it did not feel like a ghoul show.



I agree that these artifacts should be on display. But only if they are recovered and treated with respect, as the one described by you above.


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