# money crisis



## G I JAY (3 Jul 2001)

i was looking over some of the projects and operations canada is doing right now and there are billions of dollars being used for military purpose. some of it is neede but canada cant afford this right now. canada should delay some of these projects and not give money away to poorer contries because the more money spent on military the more taxes we have to pay.     :tank:


----------



## Andrew Brunton (3 Jul 2001)

I agree in part with what you say from a practical standpoint. But the reality of it is
the money we give to poorer countries is sorely needed. We can‘t stop those donations
if we want to mantain our countries position as a champion of the UN‘s global 
humanitarian efforts. And these programs in effect for Canada‘s armed forces wont go
on forever, the purchasing of new equipment and reforming of programs can only take
so long, and eventually taxes will go back down. I‘d rather take a socialist standpoint
and pay more taxes but see more benefits for all.


----------



## Soldier of Fortune (3 Jul 2001)

Maybe Canada should spend all the money going to poor countries on its military. Then the military can be deployed and help them.

(this is not my opinion, it is simply an idea)


----------



## Michael Dorosh (3 Jul 2001)

If we spent more money giving aid to countries, and persuaded them to abandon their dictatorial regimes, we would not have to deploy soldiers overseas at all.

Peacekeepers are not the cure to the problems, just a bandaid.  The world we are striving for is one with no wars - and no peacekeepers. 

That is achieved through economic prosperity.


----------



## Andrew Brunton (3 Jul 2001)

I agree with Michael, in the perfect world there would be no militaries. But in the 
mean-time we have a use for our military, and should mantain it. Though we still have 
to work towards a better future (donations to poor countries) so what we need is a
good balance.


----------



## G I JAY (4 Jul 2001)

just because canada is the worlds leading u.n peace keeping country in the world , does not mean it is the only country that can help out poorer
countries. what about the u.s.a there the richest and most powerful country in the world but the have there head so far up the @$$ they wont even think about helping out 3rd world counties. and because of canadas generosity it has left us almost as poor as some aisian and africain counrtys.i know that canada needs all the tanks and equipment we  are buying to be come a more powerful country but we cant afford it and to help out ever other countries. our country could be so far in debt we might have to ask the americans to help us out of financial troubles and we all know that is not somethin we want.


----------



## donkreel (4 Jul 2001)

Canada is currently far from the "worlds leading UN Peacekeeper".  We have only 304 (DND figures, not including Police/Civilians) personnel deployed on UN Missions (Blue Beret missions...not NATO!)  The biggest contingent is in the Golan Heights, with around 190 pers, but the majority of our deployments consist of VERY small groups...sometimes only one man on the ground.  If you want to compare numbers...check out this link to see how we compare to the rest of the world...

UN Peacekeeping Contributors - May

Some of the poorest countries in the world are amongst the biggest contributers.  Take a look at the African missions...not alot of European/North American faces in those hellholes...

I find it awfully depressing that our Government seems to take great pride in a Peacekeeping reputation we can no longer afford to maintain with current funding/manning levels.


----------



## G I JAY (4 Jul 2001)

acording to the guinness book of records 2001 canada and fija have taken place in 42 out of 49 u.n peace keeping operations more than any other nation on this planet and at most times most canadas army are away in the middle east or in bosnia. canada has shipped to destroys along with 500 troops to mozambique in order to teach children about sports, dangers and school. because they are to poor to do it them selves.and acording to dnd canada is invold in 18 operations in the world and has a total of 2474 troops on those operations.which i am not to sure about but i think that that is alot more then alot of other nations but i am trying to find info on it right now.


----------



## Soldier of Fortune (4 Jul 2001)

It is true that Asian and African countries contribute many soldiers, however all the "soldiers" the give are not trained or equiped. I got this information from a book, but I forget what it is called. (the book is about Canadas contribution to U.N. missions, maybe some of you guys know what it is called)


----------



## G I JAY (4 Jul 2001)

sorry about that i meant 17 peace keeping operations


----------



## G I JAY (4 Jul 2001)

soldier of fortune does make a good point. because of the africain countrys being so populated the can suppl soldiers to other countrys as long as that country supplies them with weopens andtraining. befor i forget is the navy and army base in halifax the largest in canada.     :evil:


----------



## donkreel (4 Jul 2001)

No kidding the poor nations have sub-standard militaries.  That‘s one of the glaring reasons that Western nations should be in countries where the Third-World nations currently deployed by the UN...  

Now...I don‘t think that you can argue with numbers.  Yes, in the past we contributed alot of troops to UN missions...I believe that was what we were talking about...not our NATO contributions in Bosnia, or STANAVFORLANT (or sometimes STANAVFORMED).  But, a country is credited with participation in a UN Mission if they only contribute one man on the ground...and alot of those 42(?) missions were made up of a handful of personnel.  

Where did you get your troop numbers?  If you check to see the numbers of troops involved in missions...UN MISSIONS, not NATO, not MFO, not IMATTs, not AWACS, not STANAVFORLANT, we have 304 personnel on UN Missions...BLUE BERET missions...

You stated that we were the "worlds leading u.n. peace keeping country in the world".  If you count number of missions...hey...sure we are.  But we definitely are not "the only country that can (or does) help out poorer countries."


----------



## G I JAY (4 Jul 2001)

i know there is only 304 troops on u.n missions but there are 2474 troops on peace keeping missions that are not u.n i was counting nato and all the others as well but still canada has been on more peace keeping operations then most other countrys in the world so 3rd world countrys look to us for money and troops.


----------



## G I JAY (4 Jul 2001)

now back to the main idea about this post. canada is buying well over 1000 new a.p.c and are upgrading all our jets,tanks and carriers which of coarse is needed but so is peace keeping so canada is buying all this new equipment and in a mounth or two from now it will be shpped away on a peace keeping operation and could be destroyed.
the equipment canada is buying should stay in the country other wise it is almost a wast of money     :tank:   :fifty:   :flame:   :mg:   :sniper:   :rocket: =    :skull:


----------



## Se7eN (5 Jul 2001)

If you are not going to use the equipment why buy it? Im  sure you will get your moneys worth using it rather then admiring it? Why buy tools for war if you are just going to keep them in the shed


----------



## donkreel (5 Jul 2001)

This thread is going nowhere...

Jay, how many missions have you been on?  How would you like it if you‘re stuck using some crapped out 1960‘s era track in BiH, when all of the LAVIII‘s are sitting in a compound in Gag(e)town, or Edmonton?  How about using an Iltis for "recce", when all of the Coyotes are back in Canada collecting dust.  Wouldn‘t be too happy, would ya?

Like it or not, we deploy to these places, so we better have the equipment we need to do the job in question.  If we‘re going to keep the kit at home (to defend us from what?), we may as well call it quits for the Forces.  We need a raison d‘etre...peacekeeping is it (for now...).

P.S. Enough with the graemlins!!  

[ 05 July 2001: Message edited by: donkreel ]  :boring:


----------



## Soldier of Fortune (5 Jul 2001)

"War is ugly but not the ugliest of things; the decay and degraded state of moral and patriotic felings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personel safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

                   -John Stuart Mill


I think Canada needs a war.


----------



## bossi (6 Jul 2001)

I saw "Soldier of Fortune‘s" post late last night, and definitely wanted to reply (but decided to sleep on it - "discretion being the better part of valour" and all that ...)

I‘ve never experienced real war, so perhaps I‘m not an authority on the subject.  I note, however, the words of somebody who saw war:

"Take my word for it, if you had seen but one day of war, you would pray Almighty God that you might never see such a thing again."
  -  - Arthur Wellesley, Duke of Wellington


Perhaps a more appropriate observation with regard to the original topic of this thread might be:

"When a military spirit forsakes a people, the profession of arms immediately ceases to be held in honour, and military men fall to the lowest rank of public servants; they are little esteemed and no longer understood ... Hence arises a circle of cause and consequence from which it is difficult to escape:  the best part of the nation shuns the military profession because that profession is not honoured, and the profession is not honoured because the best part of the nation has ceased to follow it."
  -  - Alexis de Tocqueville, from "Discovery in America"


----------



## donkreel (6 Jul 2001)

Excellent post, Bossi!

When I saw the quotes, it reminded me of one of my favourite poems...one which bears more than a passing connection to de Tocqueville‘s quote...here we go...

Tommy

I went into a public-‘ouse to get a pint o‘ beer,
The publican ‘e up an‘ sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be‘ind the bar they laughed an‘ giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an‘ to myself sez I:
O it‘s Tommy this, an‘ Tommy that, an‘ "Tommy, go away";
But it‘s "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it‘s "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but ‘adn‘t none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-‘alls,
But when it comes to fightin‘, Lord! they‘ll shove me in the stalls!
For it‘s Tommy this, an‘ Tommy that, an‘ "Tommy, wait outside";
But it‘s "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper‘s on the tide,
The troopship‘s on the tide, my boys, the troopship‘s on the tide,
O it‘s "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper‘s on the tide.

Yes, makin‘ mock o‘ uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an‘ they‘re starvation cheap;
An‘ hustlin‘ drunken soldiers when they‘re goin‘ large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin‘ in full kit.
Then it‘s Tommy this, an‘ Tommy that, an‘ "Tommy, ‘ow‘s yer soul?"
But it‘s "Thin red line of ‘eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it‘s "Thin red line of ‘eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren‘t no thin red ‘eroes, nor we aren‘t no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An‘ if sometimes our conduck isn‘t all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don‘t grow into plaster saints;
While it‘s Tommy this, an‘ Tommy that, an‘ "Tommy, fall be‘ind",
But it‘s "Please to walk in front, sir", when there‘s trouble in the wind,
There‘s trouble in the wind, my boys, there‘s trouble in the wind,
O it‘s "Please to walk in front, sir", when there‘s trouble in the wind.

You talk o‘ better food for us, an‘ schools, an‘ fires, an‘ all:
We‘ll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don‘t mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow‘s Uniform is not the soldier-man‘s disgrace.
For it‘s Tommy this, an‘ Tommy that, an‘ "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it‘s "Saviour of ‘is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An‘ it‘s Tommy this, an‘ Tommy that, an‘ anything you please;

An‘ Tommy ain‘t a bloomin‘ fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!

- Rudyard Kipling

Nothing changes, in the end...


----------



## Soldier of Fortune (6 Jul 2001)

Without another war Canadas Military would go to waste, Im not saying that war is good, all this upgrading and money spent on recruiting and new equipment for what?


----------



## Bloggins (6 Jul 2001)

Well, if I may paraphrase some of the more famous generals of history: better to spend money than spend lives.

SOF, have you ever heard of Sun Tzu‘s Art of War? Pick up a copy sometime. Here‘s a good quote:

"[T]hose skilled in war subdue the enemy‘s army without battle. They capture the enemy‘s cities without assaulting them and overthrow his state without protracted operations. Their aim is to take all under heaven intact by strategic considerations. Thus, their troops are not worn out and their gains will be complete. This is the art of offensive strategy."

We‘re far more likely to accomplish that objective if we can maintain a credible threat. That means spending money to have capable armed forces, even if they‘re never used. Are you listening, Jean Chretien?


----------



## Soldier of Fortune (6 Jul 2001)

Yout right Bloggins, but Canada can still use its new stuff to stop wars is what im trying to say.


----------



## towhey (10 Jul 2001)

As much as I, too, lament the sad state of the military profession in Canada, I fear Soldier of Fortune is, I hope, showing his age.

...all young men, after all, are immortal...

It strikes me as somewhat ironic:  Given that the purpose of an Army is to prevent and/or end wars... that we would want to start a war to justify the existence of an Army.

Just a thought...


----------



## loachduke (13 Jul 2001)

Nobody ever got to be number one without an iron fist. Canada is a great country because of our spirit and courage. Go into our history books and see for yourself.


----------



## the patriot (15 Jul 2001)

Why don‘t you guys ask your parents why they didn‘t keep the Olds Cutlass from the mid 80‘s in your driveway, and maybe then you will realize why the government is replacing the current collection of APC‘s.  With time, things such as metal fatigue and the cost of maintenance of the vehicles warrant the replacement of them.  And just like everyone knows, it will cost money.  As for giving money to poorer countries....  It is our country‘s responsibility as a founding member of the UN to take the lead in making the world a better place.  Sure, we should let Americans take the lead and run the world!!!  Then why bother being Canadian?!

-the patriot-


----------



## Master Blaster (20 Jul 2001)

I stand (sit?) in unabashed awe at the flat out ignorance of some of the participants on this page!

Unlike Mr. Bossi, I have had the somewhat dubious honor of having to do battle in an active theatre of war (OK; Police Action) and while some of the young do have a tendency to consider themselves immortal, that vanishes the first time you see a buddy hit with something very fast and nasty (Hell of a mess...all that goo and stuff.  The screaming is pretty bad too but you learn not to listen after a while).

That‘s when you realize that the team you‘re detailed to protect has less than a Pri3 standby rating for Arty support and the smartest thing you can do is haul ***  or die!  That‘s when you realize that some boneheaded Supply Tech Sgt has decided to keep all his kit neat and tidy for the next inspection rather than distribute it to the troops that need it in the field!

If you have the kit, deploy it.  If you don‘t have the kit, build it and deploy it.

Sorry for the rant...just tired of Armchair soldiers

Dileas Gu Brath


----------



## Fishbone Jones (21 Jul 2001)

Master Blaster,
Don‘t apologise! You‘ve obviously earned your right to be indignant. Your right, put it down to youthful exuberance. On poor equipment? Let‘s start when I rode around in a baffed out Ford Econoline(remember those?) during the October (FLQ) Crisis. Sat in a beatup Centurion, looking through the gun sight at my Gen Force counterparts while on Reforger in the early ‘70‘s (part of the Cold War, for you young fellas). In my Ferret at the ‘76 Olympiad in Montreal, waiting for terrorists to shoot down aircraft, or doing ammo guard while the Baader Mienhoff gang and the Red Brigade (ever heard of them?) plunder NATO ammo points for supplies. Finally, getting to rum(caught this spelling mistake but, it fits, so I‘ll leave it) around Bosnia in an overworked, worn out Iltis, in 94-95 when it was a little warmer(politically) than it is now. Always the poor cousin to whoever we worked with.  Canadian soldiers have always worked with beat up, worn out, and past it‘s due date stuff forever. When we get stuff like the LAVlll, the guys deserve it, but we don‘t keep it on the cutting edge. We let everyone develop mods for the brand new stuff WE develop and sell to them, then we don‘t adopt the mods! Lots of new stuff in War Stock(in Quebec), but we can‘t have it. Your right! They won‘t have it on their shelves! And if they don‘t, they‘re not doing their jobs! (In their deluded minds). I would say the opposite. If it‘s not issued out, some field soldier is being deprived of essential equipment he is entitled to. The role of the (entire) CF military, is to support the Combat Arms! That‘s the bottom line!  Constitutes deriliction of duty amongst other things if you ask me, if they don‘t. Money to third world nations? Not until they become full democracies with sanctioned, monitored (by western nations, and the $ donors) elections. Bush is right. Give them loans, they don‘t repay them and you have no say in how they‘re spent (or socked into the dictator‘s Swiss account), notice how Koffi Annan has been re-elected, in the UN, and is asking for HUGE (totalling billions) increases to HIS continent in forgivable loans?. He offers no progress or guarantees from recieving nations.  And we‘re racists if we demand to know how OUR money is spent. Make it a grant and you can monitor it‘s distribution and who gets it. You won‘t see it back either way, might as well have some control. However, and I‘ve always believed this, Canada should get it‘s own house in order, eliminate child poverty, homelessness, and fix medicare, etc. THEN, we‘ll solve the problems of the world. To many Canadian politicos trying to buy their way into the World Cocktail Circuit with our 53% taxes. You young pussers (there‘s a word some have‘nt heard for awhile) should get some TI (another acronym) before you start deciding policy for the world, or how we send our soldiers into it! A previous post has one of my favouite authors quoted. You young fellas would do well if you read Kipling‘s stuff today, it still applies.

There‘s my rant for the wknd, did it go off topic? Oh well!. No apoligies!


----------



## Fishbone Jones (21 Jul 2001)

Same as previous.


----------



## centurion (21 Jul 2001)

[No message]


----------



## G I JAY (26 Jul 2001)

ive been away for a long time and missed everyones replies on thissubject and i think that everyone made a strong point. i would like to say though that canada does need some way to prove that were not the pushover country that america thinks we are and that we have prov to everyone that we have courage  but aperently courage does not last for every. with the tension rising in china a world war could start because of it and i just dont think it is smart if canadahas there equipment in someone elses backyard if a war does start. we need to prove our strength.


----------

