# Advice on choosing an officer trade



## heynickletsgo (21 Oct 2021)

Hello everyone, 

Brand new member and first post - thanks for having me. 

I've started the recruiting process (Reg) and am trying to decide on which trades to consider. I've completed CFAT and was told I did "very well". I'm scheduled for TSD next month. I'm sure a recruiter will confirm which trades I'm eligible for, but in the interim I wanted to do some more research because I have a broad set of skills and interests. 

I have two undergrad degrees (kinesiology, psychology), a MSc, and am currently finishing a law degree. I have a long work history in healthcare, fitness, research, and now some law work. I've been given an articling position with the Superior Court beginning next year. I doubt I will be called to the bar by the time I would be recruited (if all goes well, of course), so a legal position right away is not an option. 

I have a keen interest in intelligence. I also want to have on-the-ground experience doing the "actual work", rather than just lead as an officer. I like working with my hands, being active, and learning technical things. I'm an athlete and not afraid of hard physical work (bit of a pain junkie tbh). I work extremely well under pressure (spent time assisting in trauma surgery).

I've browsed Air Combat Systems Officer, Intelligence Officer, and Armour Officer. One of the recruiters suggested Naval Warfare Officer. All look interesting. 

I'd appreciate any insight into any of these careers, advice on questions to ask recruiters about any trades I qualify for, and/or advice on how to make an informed decision. 

Thank you in advance for your help, and please feel free to direct me to threads where some of this may have been already addressed.


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## daftandbarmy (21 Oct 2021)

heynickletsgo said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> Brand new member and first post - thanks for having me.
> 
> ...



Holy cr*p. Are you sure you want to join the CAF? 

But seriously, there's R23A (Infantry) and those who wish they were.

I hope that helps


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## winds_13 (21 Oct 2021)

Honestly, if I was in your situation, just finishing law school, I'd finish articling and get called to the bar first... it would leave the door open to potentially Occupation Transfer (OT) to Legal Officer later in your career, or to practice law outside of the military. If Keep in mind that for any trade you apply for (outside of Legal Officer), that you will be no further ahead than if you had joined after completing your first bachelor's degree.

As for the specific trades that you listed, they are in very different "trade groups" and offer quite different experiences. I'll give you my personal opinion, although I am not in any of these trades specifically. If you are interested in Armour Officer, the most similar trades are Infantry Officer and Artillery Officer. Army "Combat Arms" do very much get some "hands on" work, and lead their soldiers in all weather and climate. Fitness is a large part of the job in the combat arms, more so than elsewhere in the military, and there is plenty of opportunity to work out (daily, or twice daily) and compete in various sporting competitions (endurance races, powerlifting competitions, team sports, etc.). Air Combat Systems Officer is most similar to Pilot, and involves flying around various aircraft. Intelligence Officers do a lot of critical thinking, and preference is for those with a background in political science/international relations/etc., you will do work that is "hands on", but that will entail office work primarily. Naval Warfare Officers (NWO) are the command arm of the Navy, so they are in charge of navigation, management, etc. of maritime vessels. Of note, your posting options will vary significantly depending on which trade you choose (join the Navy, live in Halifax or Victoria... join the Armoured Corps, it's Edmonton, Petawawa, Gagetown, or Valcartier), although all officers tend be posted to Ottawa eventually.


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## dimsum (21 Oct 2021)

@heynickletsgo - first, why Reg F?  It sounds like you'd be a great fit for Reserves, especially with a potential "day job" as a lawyer.

Also, I wouldn't rule out Legal just yet.  From hearing other folks, files don't progress quickly.  I wouldn't be surprised if you've been called to the bar by the time your file is done.

I will say this though:  People transfer _to_ the Air Force.  Not many people transfer _from_ the Air Force.  ACSO is an interesting trade that has very different roles depending on the airframe.  And no, despite what some Pilots like to say, it's not a dying trade - we can barely keep up recruiting for the capabilities.


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## jeffb (21 Oct 2021)

Do what makes sense to you but I know three law school grads who are artillery officers. Posting options for artillery are basically the same as armour. As an artillery officer you will likely start on a gunline leading soldiers who are shooting howitzers. After that, you will likely move on to either being a Forward Observation Officer where you coordinate artillery effects in support of the infantry/armour or you will move into Surveillance and Target Acquisition where you will lead soldiers operating RADARs, sound ranging systems or UAVs (drones). It's an awesome trade if you want to get your hands dirty with some great options for future employment once you are done your low-level leadership time.


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## dimsum (21 Oct 2021)

jeffb said:


> Surveillance and Target Acquisition where you will lead soldiers operating RADARs, sound ranging systems or UAVs (drones).


To clarify, since most people don't know (even in the CAF), several organizations operate UAS/RPAS (or "drones").  The Artillery for sure, but also the RCN and CANSOFCOM.

Those operate fairly small UAS (handheld up to about a small car), but the RCAF will also be buying and operating larger RPAS (roughly the same size as a CF-18 Hornet).


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## brihard (21 Oct 2021)

If you're already within striking distance of being done your legal training, get that under your belt. The military will still be here a year or two for now. Being a no-shit lawyer is an interesting and compelling thing to have on your resume. There are any number of professions where having legal training can be very valuable, even if you aren't working directly as a practicing lawyer.

I'll echo dimsum. Why regular force versus reserves? In the reserves you could still have your own professional career, but also get a taste for the military, and dive fully into it if it suits you. I was reserve infantry up until a couple years ago and we had several lawyers in my unit - most, actually, in the junior ranks. As the unit recruiter I hired one guy who had his PhD in Anthropology, got tired of doing field digs, and went to law school to do something different. He came in asking if we had infantry officer positions. Regrettably we didn't, he shrugged, said 'that's fine', and swore in shortly after as a private (turned out to be a solid soldier, too). I can think of three more lawyers we had who were PRes Pte-MCpl, and get to do the soldiering stuff on the side. Some businesses very much value being able to show that they support the secondary military employment of reservists working for their companies,. Anyway, just a thought. But it seems like law school and articling is a hell of a thing to nearly have accomplished.


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## heynickletsgo (21 Oct 2021)

Thanks to all for the comments so far. I've contemplated reserves as well and you've all made great points. I definitely plan on graduating before attending basic.

My understanding was that it was more challenging to move from reserves to reg, rather than the other way - but please correct me if I'm wrong. 

Also, if I've already started the reg recruiting process, does that transfer over to reserves easily? I should note I'm based in Toronto, if it makes any difference in advice. 

As for why CAF - I think the opportunities for broader, more international work are far better than working in private sector, which is part of my long-term career goals. And let me tell you - grinding out billable hours on Bay St really sucks 😄


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## daftandbarmy (21 Oct 2021)

heynickletsgo said:


> Thanks to all for the comments so far. I've contemplated reserves as well and you've all made great points. I definitely plan on graduating before attending basic.
> 
> *My understanding was that it was more challenging to move from reserves to reg, rather than the other way - but please correct me if I'm wrong.*
> 
> ...



You are correct. As a reservist, I'd suggest never go 'reserves first' IMHO.

And, speaking as a guy with less than stellar educational accomplishments, you do whatever the heck you want - because it looks like you can


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## Blackadder1916 (21 Oct 2021)

> . . . doing the "actual work", rather than just lead as an officer . . .



I always grin when I hear this sort of comment, because the "actual work" includes a lot of equipment maintenance, clean-up (_not what many joined the military to do, unless a wrench turner_) and sitting around (_or hiding_) while an officer eithers makes up his mind (if possible), gets direction from another officer (_who's also trying to make up his mind or is waiting for someone higher_) or else waiting because the officer wanted to pitch-in (_not always a bad thing_) doing the "actual work" instead of what his job actually required.



> I have a keen interest in intelligence.  . . .  opportunities for broader, more international work . . .



Have you considered CSIS?



> (spent time assisting in trauma surgery)



Apply to med school next and then apply to the CAF for MOTP or MMTP if you're a reservist.


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## heynickletsgo (21 Oct 2021)

Blackadder1916 said:


> Apply to med school next and then apply to the CAF for MOTP or MMTP if you're a reservist.


Oh lord lol. I'm tired of school. 

Also, I applied to med school 4 times and wasn't successful. Sad, because MOTP was the plan for that!


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## dimsum (22 Oct 2021)

heynickletsgo said:


> Oh lord lol. I'm tired of school.
> 
> Also, I applied to med school 4 times and wasn't successful. Sad, because MOTP was the plan for that!


Curious how you assisted with trauma surgery then?  Were you a medical tech of some description (can't think of the civilian equivalents right now - early morning)?

Also, to cover bases, I know that CAF courses aren't like formal schooling (whether it's easier or not is dependent on the person) but if you think that you won't need to "go to school" after joining the CAF, well...I got some bad news for ya.  CAF members are continually doing some sort of course after they are qualified.  Especially as aircrew - there are upgrade courses, courses to keep current on things...it never ends.


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## heynickletsgo (22 Oct 2021)

dimsum said:


> Curious how you assisted with trauma surgery then?  Were you a medical tech of some description (can't think of the civilian equivalents right now - early morning)?
> 
> Also, to cover bases, I know that CAF courses aren't like formal schooling (whether it's easier or not is dependent on the person) but if you think that you won't need to "go to school" after joining the CAF, well...I got some bad news for ya.  CAF members are continually doing some sort of course after they are qualified.  Especially as aircrew - there are upgrade courses, courses to keep current on things...it never ends.


Shoulda clarified - sorry about that. 

I was a neurophysiologist, so I did brain and spinal cord monitoring... mostly during spine surgery, and often during emergency trauma. Nothing like being paged at 1am for a 10 hour procedure! 🙃

I don't mind school work. Continuing ed is really important, and I think courses with the military would be really interesting. What I don't want to do is another 4-year degree plus residency. Universities have had enough of my time and energy.


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## dimsum (22 Oct 2021)

heynickletsgo said:


> Shoulda clarified - sorry about that.
> 
> I was a neurophysiologist, so I did brain and spinal cord monitoring... mostly during spine surgery, and often during emergency trauma. Nothing like being paged at 1am for a 10 hour procedure! 🙃
> 
> I don't mind school work. Continuing ed is really important, and I think courses with the military would be really interesting. What I don't want to do is another 4-year degree plus residency. Universities have had enough of my time and energy.


Uh, why are you considering the Reg F rather than the Res F again?


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## heynickletsgo (22 Oct 2021)

dimsum said:


> Uh, why are you considering the Reg F rather than the Res F again?


Not against the idea... but I understand moving from Res to Reg is challenging, at best.


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## daftandbarmy (22 Oct 2021)

heynickletsgo said:


> Shoulda clarified - sorry about that.
> 
> I was a neurophysiologist, so I did brain and spinal cord monitoring... mostly during spine surgery, and often during emergency trauma. Nothing like being paged at 1am for a 10 hour procedure! 🙃
> 
> I don't mind school work. Continuing ed is really important, and I think courses with the military would be really interesting. What I don't want to do is another 4-year degree plus residency. Universities have had enough of my time and energy.



So, it's definitely Infantry then.

We're kind of the 'opposite' of University


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## SupersonicMax (24 Oct 2021)

heynickletsgo said:


> Shoulda clarified - sorry about that.
> 
> I was a neurophysiologist, so I did brain and spinal cord monitoring... mostly during spine surgery, and often during emergency trauma. Nothing like being paged at 1am for a 10 hour procedure! 🙃
> 
> I don't mind school work. Continuing ed is really important, and I think courses with the military would be really interesting. What I don't want to do is another 4-year degree plus residency. Universities have had enough of my time and energy.


Isn’t neurophysiology a specialty that requires a M.D. first??  Or were you a technician?


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## Navy_Pete (24 Oct 2021)

I've got to be honest, you seem massively overqualified for any CAF job, and jumping into the Reg F seems like it would be stifling for you. Sure, you can potentially do some really cool things, but there are long periods of waiting and preparing between all of that that can be really frustrating. The Reg F is a big machine with a massive bureacracy, so working within that can be occasionally soul sucking, but a necessary evil to get things actually done.

I would also recommend considering the Res F; may be a bit of work to switch between the two later, but that would give you a lot more flexibility, and is much easier if you find out it's not for you to move on with your life. You would still get to dip your toes into the hands on part but wouldn't necessarily have to deal with the same kind of bureaucratic drudgery, so may be a better fit for what you want to get out of it, and that way if you were interested in a non-officer trade may be easier to do that, and then transfer to something different in the Reg F later. Know more than a few officers on the Navy side that had some kind of combat arms militia time as reservists, and there is always something from that kind of experience that translates over.


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## heynickletsgo (24 Oct 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> Isn’t neurophysiology a specialty that requires a M.D. first??  Or were you a technician?


Tech gig.. electrodes, wires, and sine waves all night long.. although sometimes we did awake craniotomies and testing in the ICU, so that was interesting.


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## heynickletsgo (24 Oct 2021)

Navy_Pete said:


> I've got to be honest, you seem massively overqualified for any CAF job, and jumping into the Reg F seems like it would be stifling for you. Sure, you can potentially do some really cool things, but there are long periods of waiting and preparing between all of that that can be really frustrating. The Reg F is a big machine with a massive bureacracy, so working within that can be occasionally soul sucking, but a necessary evil to get things actually done.
> 
> I would also recommend considering the Res F; may be a bit of work to switch between the two later, but that would give you a lot more flexibility, and is much easier if you find out it's not for you to move on with your life. You would still get to dip your toes into the hands on part but wouldn't necessarily have to deal with the same kind of bureaucratic drudgery, so may be a better fit for what you want to get out of it, and that way if you were interested in a non-officer trade may be easier to do that, and then transfer to something different in the Reg F later. Know more than a few officers on the Navy side that had some kind of combat arms militia time as reservists, and there is always something from that kind of experience that translates over.



Thank you.. I just like to get my hands into a bunch of stuff because I'm curious. Ain't nothin' special. 

I'll investigate the Reserves next time I'm at the recruitment centre.


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## da1root (28 Oct 2021)

Blackadder1916 said:


> Apply to med school next and then apply to the CAF for MOTP or MMTP if you're a reservist.



Lots of great information here, just jumping in to "fix" one piece of information.

MOTP is for Civilian Applicants & Primary Reserve members to apply

MMTP is only for Regular Force member's and only available to those who reached the Operational Function Point + 1 year of service (and of course completed any obligatory service that they might be subject to).


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## Kosmas (28 Oct 2021)

da1root said:


> Lots of great information here, just jumping in to "fix" one piece of information.
> 
> MOTP is for Civilian Applicants & Primary Reserve members to apply
> 
> MMTP is only for Regular Force member's and only available to those who reached the Operational Function Point + 1 year of service (and of course completed any obligatory service that they might be subject to).


Oh so you cannot apply to be a military police officer? you first have to apply for part time then reach the operations function point and a year of service?


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## dimsum (28 Oct 2021)

Kosmas said:


> Oh so you cannot apply to be a military police officer? you first have to apply for part time then reach the operations function point and a year of service?


This is for Medical Doctors, not Military Police.


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## Kosmas (28 Oct 2021)

dimsum said:


> This is for Medical Doctors, not Military Police.


oh sorry, probably should have read a bit more!


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## Happy Guy (28 Oct 2021)

You're a great candidate to be a lawyer or a Bioscience Officer. 

First pass the Bar.

A friend of mine was on track to be a Bioscience Officer but recruiting screwed up and he instead applied, got accepted and became an Artillery Officer.   He had a PhD in the Health Sciences field (not a MD).  He likes being an Arty Offr - something playing with big guns.

In my opinion, if you really want a challenge go Combat Arms (infantry, Armoured, Artillery) or Naval Warfare Officer.  You'll really be mentally and physically challenged, get to work with a great team and play with weapons.  Once you've had enough you can transfer to be a lawyer.  A friend of mine was an Armoured Officer for two tours and he transferred to be a lawyer.

I have both Regular and Reserve Time. I would suggest Reserve first to get your feet wet to see if this is the life you you.

In the Reserves you don't have been a Officer and join as a Private soldier.  Res F career is difficult if you have a spouse or in a long long term relationship.  Some of your nights, after work, and some weekends in the month are devoted to the military.

Reg F life is tough in terms of job assignments and postings.  You don't always get what you want and it can be frustrating, but there rewarding challenges too.  If you are married or in a serious relationship, Reg F career is hard on the spouse.  

Good Luck.


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## heynickletsgo (28 Oct 2021)

Happy Guy said:


> In my opinion, if you really want a challenge go Combat Arms (infantry, Armoured, Artillery) or Naval Warfare Officer.  You'll really be mentally and physically challenged, get to work with a great team and play with weapons.  Once you've had enough you can transfer to be a lawyer.  A friend of mine was an Armoured Officer for two tours and he transferred to be a lawyer.
> 
> I have both Regular and Reserve Time. I would suggest Reserve first to get your feet wet to see if this is the life you you.


Thank you, this is solid advice. The Sgt at the desk immediately suggested Naval Warfare Office, which admittedly does look very cool. I have a TSD next week. Let's see what they suggest for me. 

I've started the reg force recruiting process. If I opt for the reserves, I presume they'll inform me of the correct people to get in touch with? I don't want to waste anyone's time while I go through the process, that's for sure!


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## Happy Guy (28 Oct 2021)

Talk with the recruiters about going Regular or Reserve Force. Let them know.  There are advantages and disadvantages to both, but only you can decide what is best for you.  Again if you are in a committed relationship I would highly recommend that you get agreement from your partner.


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## heynickletsgo (28 Oct 2021)

No relationships to worry about, but I agree 100% a partner should be involved in the say.


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## heynickletsgo (2 Nov 2021)

Did the TSD and a bunch of other paperwork today. I basically qualify for most of the officer positions, except engineering, pilot, and things that require some other specialized degrees. This isn’t helping my decision-making process any easier, though. Next steps are interview and medical.

The recruiter said the process could be a few months or a few weeks, and didn’t have to decide on a career yet. I feel like I need to have a longer in-depth discussion about more of the ins and outs of various things I’m thinking on. Would this be something I should email the recruiter about, or should I wait for an interview?


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## daftandbarmy (3 Nov 2021)

heynickletsgo said:


> Did the TSD and a bunch of other paperwork today. I basically qualify for most of the officer positions, except engineering, pilot, and things that require some other specialized degrees. This isn’t helping my decision-making process any easier, though. Next steps are interview and medical.
> 
> The recruiter said the process could be a few months or a few weeks, and didn’t have to decide on a career yet. I feel like I need to have a longer in-depth discussion about more of the ins and outs of various things I’m thinking on. Would this be something I should email the recruiter about, or should I wait for an interview?



Come over to the Infantry Dark Side... we have claymores.

Both kinds


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## heynickletsgo (26 Jan 2022)

Brief update: I've made some decisions and have decided to go with reserves rather than reg at the moment. I've applied to intelligence and have an information session coming up, which I understand is the first step in their recruit process. Will provide further updates as they come.


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## FSTO (26 Jan 2022)

heynickletsgo said:


> Brief update: I've made some decisions and have decided to go with reserves rather than reg at the moment. I've applied to intelligence and have an information session coming up, which I understand is the first step in their recruit process. Will provide further updates as they come.


May I ask where you are recruiting at? Apologies if this has already been mentioned.


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## Happy Guy (29 Jan 2022)

heynickletsgo said:


> Brief update: I've made some decisions and have decided to go with reserves rather than reg at the moment. I've applied to intelligence and have an information session coming up, which I understand is the first step in their recruit process. Will provide further updates as they come.


Keep an open mind throughout the recruiting process.  Think of your choices in terms of Navy, Army, Air Force and the job.

If I wasn't so hard set on being in the Army, when I was young, I might have instead joined the Air Force. Where I would have: stayed in quality hotels and ate in fine dining establishments when I travelled on temporary duty; worked a normal 8 hrs day, not having to go to the field and sleep in the outside in the dirt/snow; not having to carry a rifle and rucksack while on the weekly walk/run with 600 of your best friends in the hot sun/rain/snow; and being able to do physical training at a time that I want instead of at 0700 hrs every weekday morning with a bunch of tired and grumpy men and women.

I hear that the Navy has: big warm ships to work in; nice warm bunks to sleep in every night; three hot meals everyday; hot soup at 1000 hrs everyday; swimming in the ocean when there is time; travel to exotic ports and experiencing new and very different cultures; and really spiffy uniforms (like Summer Whites), that young adults swoon and fawn over.

The Army: works you to the bone; kicks you out the airplane door with a parachute at a dizzy height; screams at you when you're not in step with the group - they really hate that and I speak from personal experience;  makes you travel to really awful and desolate places where people are not nice to you;  makes you skip meals while on operations; and forces you to keep working for long stretches at a time for days on end. Despite being medically released, I loved every minute of being in the Army.

Oh, to be young again and to choose ... sigh ...


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## heynickletsgo (1 Feb 2022)

Happy Guy said:


> Keep an open mind throughout the recruiting process.  Think of your choices in terms of Navy, Army, Air Force and the job.
> 
> If I wasn't so hard set on being in the Army, when I was young, I might have instead joined the Air Force. Where I would have: stayed in quality hotels and ate in fine dining establishments when I travelled on temporary duty; worked a normal 8 hrs day, not having to go to the field and sleep in the outside in the dirt/snow; not having to carry a rifle and rucksack while on the weekly walk/run with 600 of your best friends in the hot sun/rain/snow; and being able to do physical training at a time that I want instead of at 0700 hrs every weekday morning with a bunch of tired and grumpy men and women.
> 
> ...



I'm... not opposed to any of the army stuff you mentioned.   I can handle the yelling; cadets and working in neurosurgery prepped me well for that. I mean, who doesn't want a surgeon throwing instruments and screaming during trauma surgery at 3 am?


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## heynickletsgo (1 Feb 2022)

FSTO said:


> May I ask where you are recruiting at? Apologies if this has already been mentioned.


I attended an information session with 2Int so far, which is the main gig I want.


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## heynickletsgo (1 Feb 2022)

Happy Guy said:


> Keep an open mind throughout the recruiting process.  Think of your choices in terms of Navy, Army, Air Force and the job.
> 
> If I wasn't so hard set on being in the Army, when I was young, I might have instead joined the Air Force. Where I would have: stayed in quality hotels and ate in fine dining establishments when I travelled on temporary duty; worked a normal 8 hrs day, not having to go to the field and sleep in the outside in the dirt/snow; not having to carry a rifle and rucksack while on the weekly walk/run with 600 of your best friends in the hot sun/rain/snow; and being able to do physical training at a time that I want instead of at 0700 hrs every weekday morning with a bunch of tired and grumpy men and women.
> 
> ...



In seriousness, you do make great points. I'm not sure how interested I am in being on a ship (my swim skills are lacking), but Air Force sounds cozy. Although, I do want a position where I can get my hands dirty, so to speak. 2Int is pretty high-tempo and they expect you to be trained in a few things besides intelligence, which is up my alley.


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## FSTO (1 Feb 2022)

heynickletsgo said:


> In seriousness, you do make great points. I'm not sure how interested I am in being on a ship (my swim skills are lacking), but Air Force sounds cozy. Although, I do want a position where I can get my hands dirty, so to speak. 2Int is pretty high-tempo and they expect you to be trained in a few things besides intelligence, which is up my alley.


Swimming in the Navy is not a requirement. I have all the buoyancy of a granite brick. And if you find yourself in the northern waters being able to swim is the least of your issues.


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## Happy Guy (1 Feb 2022)

Good choice.

2 Int Coy is an Army Reserve Unit. I used know to a couple of guys from 2 Int who were working Class B (full time) when I worked at Land Forces Central Area Headquarters, now know as 4th Canadian Division Headquarters.  Good people who were passionate about their work.  They could on and on about esoteric subjects which would make my eyes glaze over during our chats.

I have a lot of respect for the Int community.  Many times they were spot on in their assessments when we were deployed and they potentially saved lives and prevent injuries.  It is a difficult and demanding job.

Don't be too discouraged about processing for your security clearance - meaning it could take a long time.

Good luck on your career!

E TENEBRIS LUX - "Out of the Darkness, Light"


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## heynickletsgo (10 Mar 2022)

Quick update:

I attended the 2Int online info session. They're accepting applications for operators and have one officer position open, although they said they strongly preferred to commission from within the unit. I'm now waiting for them to get back to me to schedule an interview. They mentioned the entire process of getting signed on and trained up could be upwards of two years, given the top secret security clearance required, and for officers, the limited number of leadership courses offered a year.

In the interim, I'm recovering from rotator cuff surgery, and probably have another 3 months to go before I can push my training in a serious manner. For now I'm keeping up with cardio and training my other three limbs lol. 

In the event I'm not accepted to 2Int, I'm considering other options. Feel free to chime in on fun army reserve gigs!


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