# Training Value of Reserve Brigade Exercises!



## JBP (28 Nov 2006)

Hello folks,

I just came back from 31 Bde training ex located in Hamilton this past weekend, I'm sure there are people who are on this site who were there. I'd like to get some input from others who were there or participated from any level and see what you gained from it. For me personally, that was one of the best weekend ex's I've been on, and it was BUSY! And I loved every moment of it, even the VCP's weren't too boring this time! 

I'm Infantry and was 3 Section of 6 Platoon, however the heck they organized that! Lincoln and Welland regiment... In the final attack on John Foote armoury, I was one of the section members to provide the cordon for the "cordon and search turned assault and slaughter".....  : Besides the fact that the last mission went to hell slightly because it was suppose to be a cordon and search but turned out to be vicious FIBUA, I gleaned a lot of knowledge from this past ex!

1.) Pack freakin' lighter
2.) Tactics are even more important than I ever imagined... Naturally I knew they were important but even more so now then ever...
3.) Sometimes there is no way to prevent a given negative event from occuring and you have to roll with it
4.) SOP's will bloodywell save your life!
5.) Attention to detail attention to detail attention to detail for crying in the mud!!! It cannot be over-stated! This I mean in regards to searching people, buildings and vehicles for contraband, weapons, what have you, IED's etc etc...

My section did a whole bunch of stuff... We cleared a school, detained opfor guys peacefully and forcefully, we did a 3 hour presence patrol in the city, we did a VCP, also gate duty, that cordon and search I mentioned and a few other things. 

All things considered it was a fantastic ex for Infantry types, little sleep, lots of action and good practice!

I also really enjoyed the presentation from 23 Med, I found that very interesting. As the WO who gave the presentation said, it wasn't meant to train us in anyway, but give us insight into how the CF is changing in regards to taken care of wounded soldiers as well... Makes you feel a lot better if you had to go into combat that you know there is a highly trained COMBAT medic that will do everything they can to help you... And that new blood-clotting stuff looks like a magic godsend!!!

So, I'd like to hear back from anyone else who was there on the ex and gained anything from it.

PS> I LOOOVVVEEEDDDD the catering! Never fed so well on a Brigade ex before!  ;D




_(just edited a typo in the title. Carry on. - pc)_


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## Spanky (28 Nov 2006)

Our portion of the 31 Bde ex was held in Rodney.  All three Svc Bn were there as was a composite recce sqn from the Windsors and 1H.  The focus was on convoy escorts.  We had a FOB established in the Rodney fairground and conducted our convoys from there.  We had an enemy force that presented a number of different situations that allowed us to practice our ROE's, actions on sniper and actions on ambush.  Firing blanks from the C6 on civvie roads was a real bonus. 
Everyone learned a lot as the AAR process was utilized to practice portions over again in order to fix mistakes etc.  It was an excellent training event as troops at al levels and different trades learned something.  It was also a positive opportunity to interact with civvies.


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## daftandbarmy (28 Nov 2006)

Wow. Glad to hear it was such a great experience. Send some of that magic our way. (West)


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## 1feral1 (29 Nov 2006)

A weekend is not long enough at the Bde level, one gets better results all around, say if concentrations for 2 weeks were conducted. A wknd ex at this level, is a waste of resources, time and money. All for one real training day, Saturday.

This was gained from my Militia days, so I aint talking out my arse, ha!


Wes


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## Steel Badger (29 Nov 2006)

Wes

For what its worth, I agree.

I would much rather see a properly supported week or three week long ex that would allow us to properly refresh and then practice our skills.....

SB


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## geo (29 Nov 2006)

Wes,
The fact that it is a "bde" Ex might be a misnomer.
If each reserve Inf Bn fielded 1 or 2 Platoons to form a composite Infantry Bn then all of a sudden wè're dealing with a Bn Ex, not a Bde Ex......

A weekend is not much time to conduct a full blown ex that will exercise all job skills - resupply, and the like ..... two weeks is really the only way to go - but a weekend training ex exercising a narrow range of objectives can be an effective use of resources


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## dapaterson (29 Nov 2006)

Most exerciss are organised by the brigade, but conducted at much lower levels.  Units are mandated to train platoons in a company context;  the exercises are usually at or about that level.  Running them by the Bde permits some economies of scale, and, as previously mentionned, permits units unable t ofield robust organizations to combine, providing better realism for sub-unit commanders (vice having a major "OC" comanding two platoon commanders each with a reinforced section).


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## Spanky (29 Nov 2006)

I would certainly agree that a 2 week excercise is much more effective than a weekend one.  That being said, the weekend ones certainly have their uses.  It provides an opportunity for composite sub-units to become familiar with each other in terms of SOPs, personalities, and capabilities.  This would enable the sub-unit to hit the ground running and maximize the benefits of the 2 week excercise.  Concentrating on one task on a weekend is also the way to go.  The convoy escorts we practiced this past weekend will run a lot smoother this August on the larger ex.


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## JBP (29 Nov 2006)

Although I agree a weekend is NOT long enough, it's what we have to work with. So we make the most of it we can. I had down time for about 7 hours the whole weekend while the ex was still "on". And I loved it all.

But for what we had, it was a fantastic ex to say the least, better than usual for sure. And it didn't even rain! It wasn't that cold out except for at night which only went down to about 0 or -1 or some such. Nothing to worry about. 

I wanted to see what kind of input anyone else recieved from the ex and then expand upon that. When I mentioned I learned a lot about tactics, that was in regards to the "Cordon and Search-turned-assault" on the John Foote armoury... Had we known they were going to have basically 'dug in' positions. We could have planned for it as an assault and not a cordon and search. We had a good idea there would be high resistance and a battle of course, but since they ushered us on into a cordon and search plan, we would have suffered rediculously high casualties in the first moments of it all. The entire Section I was with (first section in) would have been completely obliterated for the most part, and then there would have been no cordon team! Not to even go into more detail, you could see how that would have went... Had we planned it as an assault first, we would not have suffered as many casualties I do not think. Especially with an active firebase. 

As a reservist, I have to learn as much as I can from these tiny spats of time in the army on weekends and the such. Since the only decent length of time for training we normally recieve is our 10 day FTX each year in the summer besides any courses you go on.

I've always liked those thus far also.


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## Sgt_McWatt (29 Nov 2006)

I also participated in 31 CBGs Ex Maple Gale. My unit was located in St. Marys. I find organization wise there was room for a lot of improvement. I think that it could have been run a lot better at another time. Trying to do too much in a weekend. As well as separating all of the differant elements on exercises. I think it would have been better to not be splitting up MP's, armour, infantry, service. Not necessarily the whole brigade in one place but maybe 3 towns spread out insted of however many were used.


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## Loachman (29 Nov 2006)

Wesley 'Over There' (formerly Down Under) said:
			
		

> A weekend is not long enough at the Bde level, one gets better results all around, say if concentrations for 2 weeks were conducted. A wknd ex at this level, is a waste of resources, time and money. All for one real training day, Saturday.


These are not brigade-level exercises, but exercises run by brigades. LFCA has three reserve brigades, and each will be running two or three weekend exercises as work-ups for Ex Valiant Guardian, the August concentration.

And your holsters should be ready by Friday, Wes. I'll be going in to have a look at them.


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## Fishbone Jones (29 Nov 2006)

Pte(T). McWatt said:
			
		

> I also participated in 31 CBGs Ex Maple Gale. My unit was located in St. Marys. I find organization wise there was room for a lot of improvement. I think that it could have been run a lot better at another time. Trying to do too much in a weekend. As well as separating all of the differant elements on exercises. I think it would have been better to not be splitting up MP's, armour, infantry, service. Not necessarily the whole brigade in one place but maybe 3 towns spread out insted of however many were used.



Examples of disorganization, and what you'd do to fix it would be a start. How you would be prepared to handle the logistics of all arms and units combined in one area as a follow up, would be good. How 'bout it? Sometimes an untrained, junior outlook provides a fresh perspective to old, set in their ways experience and know how.. 

Don't bring a problem, unless you got a solution.


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## dglad (29 Nov 2006)

A weekend for a Bde-level exercise certainly is ambitious, but is doable, I suppose, given the close proximity of units in southern Ontario.  So it's hard to "port" that experience to other parts of the country (in the case of 38 CBG, for instance, bringing all of the units together in, say, Winnipeg, involves an aggregate of roughly 6000 km of travel i.e. Thunder Bay to Winnipeg, Kenora to Winnipeg, Saskatoon to Winnipeg, Regina to Winnipeg...etc.)  It becomes cost ineffective to undertake that much travel for 24 to 36 hours of training.  In the western experience, a weekend may be useful for bringing, say, the units of a particular branch together (like all of the inf units of the Bde), to do two things--promote some cohesion among the soldiers of that branch, and focus on specific training objectives that are part of progressive training leading up to a major training event.  In the case of 38 CBG, the last BTE, held in Winnipeg, was about 10 days, of which about 6 or 7 were training and the rest were travel/admin.


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## 241 (29 Nov 2006)

What I find a lot of the younger troops don't realize is that while they may not have Civi jobs or at least one that they care about or need and can take off for extended periods of time for a field exercise, the rest of us have careers and families to support so we can't take time off for a 10 day or 3 week exercise, even in the summer, so we are forced to make due with the weekend training exercises. Which many of the younger troops seem to think are a waste of time, all they need to remember is that we are reservists and have other commitments that may have to come before the army therefore a long field exercise would have a low turn out, especially of the upper parts of the CofC and therefore wouldn't be the effective either, but that's just my opinion..............


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## geo (29 Nov 2006)

So long as the objective is retricted to a fairly narrow range of activities, there is nothing wrong with company level exercise(s) run individualy or concurrently with other coy level exercises on a given weekend BUT, please don't try to pump thru the 4 phases of war .........


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## cplcaldwell (29 Nov 2006)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Examples of disorganization, and what you'd do to fix it would be a start. How you would be prepared to handle the logistics of all arms and units combined in one area as a follow up, would be good. How 'bout it?



Sooo, at least one thing generated from a Res Bde's weekend exercise should be a solid After Action Report? 

And if the powers that be read those AAR's (as I am sure they do) then '_a_' value derived is to figger out _what to do right next time_  *based on* _what was done wrong last time_..

*Given * an opportunity for the troops to get wet tired and cold in a collective manner _and_ a constructive AAR is generated... _hmmm_ we might be getting somewhere here....

Pte McWatt, Pte Joe, your observations seem valid, have you memoed your Sect Cmd? Mentioned it to your Alfa? Brought it up with a stalwart Cpl who is not afraid to take either of the aforementioned (or even a young Subbie) aside ....

Shite does flow up hill, it just needs to be _nuanced_...


*PS*... geo you got in under me, yes four phases of war is a bit much....


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## dglad (29 Nov 2006)

Very true.  A weekend exercise is suitable to do preliminary training, practice or confirm one or two BTS.


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## JBP (30 Nov 2006)

geo said:
			
		

> So long as the objective is retricted to a fairly narrow range of activities, there is nothing wrong with company level exercise(s) run individualy or concurrently with other coy level exercises on a given weekend BUT, please don't try to pump thru the 4 phases of war .........



Which they didn't at all on this ex. So no worries there! Like I stated above, we did Urban Patrolling, VCP's, Gate Duty, Cordon and Search's and a few other things here and there... Overall, apparently the section I was with, and 1 other section got the most action/rotation out of the whole ordeal... Example: We did a cordon and search on an old broken down school the AshofC use, and immediately afterwords (literally, just after the AAR) we were tasked to 'surprise' a suspected enemy vehicle that was hanging around the rear area of our base and harassing a FOB etc... We snuck up on them and chased them, cornered them with the LLV and deployed and it turned into shooting fish in a barrel after they threw IED's at us. We attained valuable enemy intel on that quick little side-mission and also 'captured' enemy assetts. 

To me, and 'on-the-fly' chance mission and opportunity like that was excellent training.

Where we were at, I didn't see any problems with organization at all. Then again, as stated, there are several units located within a fairly close proximity which made the travel not bad at all (30-45mins for us!).


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## 1feral1 (30 Nov 2006)

Loachman said:
			
		

> These are not brigade-level exercises, but exercises run by brigades. LFCA has three reserve brigades, and each will be running two or three weekend exercises as work-ups for Ex Valiant Guardian, the August concentration.
> 
> And your holsters should be ready by Friday, Wes. I'll be going in to have a look at them.



Excellent, look forward to more info. Although we are coming up near midway through our tour, I am sure there will some guys interested still.

Thanks,

Wes


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## daftandbarmy (2 Dec 2006)

2 days or 2 months. As long as we've got young soldiers like Joe all charged up about infantry soldiering, I'm all for it. If we can avoid some real disappointments in training (and we have all seen them, both reg and reserve contexts) I'd like to be able to find out how and air drop that stuff to every brigade in Canada. Get the MSPs ready!

Tell us more Joe, what went well from your point of view? How can we recreate that success in other brigades from your point of view?


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## dglad (3 Dec 2006)

Actually, one of the great weaknesses of our generally brief (about 2 day) Res F exercises (regardless of level of the PTA or EXCON) is that we tend to teach our soldiers how to live in the field for, well, 2 days.  The TRAINING is generally (not always, but generally) good, dynamic, interesting and challenging.  Having participated in many, many exercises, however, I've noticed that it's the "ancillary" stuff that we tend to fall down on.  Frankly, anyone can live in the field for two days without shaving, washing, changing their socks or sleeping.  Unfortunately, these are the very things that are often glossed over, or even omitted altogether, because they require time that's always in critically short supply.  Exacerbating this is the fact that your average 18 or 19 year old isn't necessarily all that well-versed, or even motivated, in looking after him/herself (I have two sons, 19 and 21...between them and their friends, it's amazing how disgusting they can allow themselves to become--and that's in a home setting, with clean clothes and showers readily at hand).  The result is soldiers who become casualties on longer exercises, starting on day 3 or 4, because of exhaustion, rashes, blisters, etc.  

What's worse is that their chain of command ALLOWS this to happen; when I was a young 2Lt and commanding a platoon, I was (very firmly) taught by the RSM that I was responsible for those soldiers, so I'd better lean heavily on my Pl WO (who'd also been taught by the RSM) and let him ride herd on my young soldiers.  Every morning, the WO had the troops shave, wash down appropriate body parts, change socks, comb hair, brush teeth, etc.  I'd then inspect them, even if it meant crawling from trench to trench to check them out.  I also did foot inspections; I haven't seen one of those done in ages (I pulled them when I was a CO; although the first time, the soldiers looked at the "old man" like he'd grown a 3rd eye when he said he wanted to look at their feet, the concept did catch back on.  Not sure if it's still in the unit's lexicon, however).  Every exercise, no matter how long, should be treated as though it's a slice of a much longer ex or op, so all of that "boring routine" of washing, changing clothes, etc. should be done properly, every time.


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## mysteriousmind (3 Dec 2006)

I think...that even the week-end ex., like dglad should use the cleaning, shaving, socks routine. I for example has to shave at least once a day...other wise...a bear would look better then me. 

I never had done Brigade ex. but seen them often prepared since my Cadet unit is in a Amory and I think you people forget all about the planification and preparation that is done during the few days prior to the Ex. and the few days after. Perhaps for the combat arm's unit it is diffrent I could not say. But for a service battalion, it looks different. 

Then again it is my point of view from some one who has not participated to that kind of ex. I sure hope Ill do it soon.


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## TangoTwoBravo (3 Dec 2006)

dglad,

Good post.  When I was in the Reserves we called it the "disposable soldier" syndrome.  By that we went that you could go for 48 hrs and then be done with it, as opposed to maintaining self/soldiers/equipment over a prolonged period.  I even saw a bit of that in the Bde when I was a Troop Leader in the Regular Force.  Our month-long exercises were often conducted in our home training area and we went home every Friday and returned to the field every Monday.  Its pretty easy to pack for a week and if you forget stuff its OK.  We certainly felt it when we went to Gagetown or Wainwright for five to six weeks of non-stop field living without the ability to sneak off to the hangar to get things.

Still, weekend exercises can certainly have value.  If the training aim is kept rather focused you can get some good results.  Combine some of those with a two week concentration and you have a training plan.  

R031 Joe,

Great job writing down some points about your exercise.  After Action Reviews are very valuable when they are passed up the chain of command.  Its easier to write them here (and people do read them), but the trick can be pushing them up the unit chain.  The best AARs deal with the person making the comment.  Those are gold in my opinion (and its my job to read and publish AARs).

Cheers


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## Osotogari (3 Dec 2006)

I'm glad someone at least gets training value out of brigade exercises.  In 41 Bde, it turns into a smozzle as the non-infantry types get roled into "infantry-like" and the entire ex gets dumbed down to accomodate them.  That, and the rampant disorganization due in no small part to the fact that there's nothing disproving the assertion that 41 Bde HQ is made up of 1 CMBG's castoffs, there is a lot of cringing when going on Brigade ex on my part.  

Last year we were supposed to go to Pendleton but someone in HQ didn't get the border paperwork through in time so that we could cross over the border with weapons.  

Not to hijack this thread, but there's a case of beer in it for anyone can convince me that their CBG is less competant than 41 Bde.


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## daftandbarmy (3 Dec 2006)

Now there's a good challenge! Race you to the bottom... That sounds like it really sucked, no doubt causing some people to vote foot-wise

I've been more and more impressed with the efforts our Bde HQ is making at improving training quality. I was a big naysayer a few years ago, but they seem to be getting their act together. The things that seem to work best are:

1) Start planning at least a year in advance
2) Tell the units what's coming up far enough in advance so they can rehearse during normal training (gee, that sounds alot like a warning order, eh?)
3) Involve various levels of leadership in TEWTs and CPXs etc prior to the event. Include NCMs down to MCpl level if you can. Don't get too fancy, focus on good, basic battle procedure
4) Have one clear leader in charge (vs. a host of flunkies) who calls the shots
5) Don't over estimate your admin capabilities. For example, if the infantry needs to walk, then plan to make them walk vs. hanging around for 'trains, planes and automobiles' that never materialize
6) As the main effort, focus on delivering a high quality, high intensity training experience to soldiers at the section level. Build other stuff on top of that foundation as required.

The last couple of 39 CBG exercises have been pretty good by all accounts (I couldn't attend myslef due to work, of course).

Having said all that, a change of personalities at Bde HQ can ruin eveything. We'll see what happens next year.


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## 241 (3 Dec 2006)

Of all the 41 Bge Ex's I have been on at the Bde level, we (20th Fd) have never used our guns on the ex... '98 for example once word got around the unit that there where no guns going we had enough people for an FSCC and an 8 man enemy force for the remainder of the BDE, but I don't think it is necessarily a BDE problem because in '99 on TOTAL RAM we sat in the same gun Pos'n for the first 4 days. One more example of big ex's going bad Active Edge 05 we where suposed to have 1 or 2 days or dry deployments then go live but we ended up with 3 or 4 because somewhere along the line some one higher up forgot to tell the SVC Bn that not only did we need our bullets but we needed the fuses as well...So I don't think it is a BDE problem, but a problem on any ex over unit size...


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## dglad (3 Dec 2006)

Well, I'm not going to comment on the BTEs of Brigades I've never worked with.  However, a few comments below:



> 1) Start planning at least a year in advance



[For a Bde ex, absolutely.  If the Bde is running annual BTEs, then planning for the next one should begin immediately following the one just completed.  The BTE AAR can form a foundation document for planning the follow year's ex. 



> 2) Tell the units what's coming up far enough in advance so they can rehearse during normal training (gee, that sounds alot like a warning order, eh?)



Actually, it's more fundamental than that.  The Bde Trg Plan should incorporate specific direction to units because, if a BTE is going to be held, then it should form the culmination of training for that year.  All unit trg should then be designed to lead progressively to the BTE "end-state".  Bde should be specifying BTS to be undertaken, including which ones are to be confirmed vs those practiced or only conducted to a preliminary level by the time of the BTS.  Units should be able to confirm to level 2 (section).  Ideally, they'd be able to confirm to level 3 (platoon), but most units lack the capacity to do so properly.  COs are accountable for achieving the training objectives given to them in the Bde Trg Plan.



> 3) Involve various levels of leadership in TEWTs and CPXs etc prior to the event. Include NCMs down to MCpl level if you can. Don't get too fancy, focus on good, basic battle procedure



Absolutely.  Professional Development Ex's (chalk-talk-walk format), computer-assisted ex's (e.g. JCATS), TEWTs and CPXs should all be included as part of the progressive training, and built into the trg plan.  They should allow leadership to discuss and practice concepts in a "troop-less" environment.  The troops can, concurrently, be practicing their individual battlecraft under supervision of 2ic's.



> 4) Have one clear leader in charge (vs. a host of flunkies) who calls the shots



I'd love to hear the back-story that made you feel you had to say this.  This is the army...ordinarily, the "one commander" thing is a no-brainer...but you've apparently experienced something different.  Leadership by committee...?



> 5) Don't over estimate your admin capabilities. For example, if the infantry needs to walk, then plan to make them walk vs. hanging around for 'trains, planes and automobiles' that never materialize



Don't overestimate ANY of your capabilities.  Don't try to train to level 4 (company) or higher if you haven't confirmed at level 3 and lower (but, I've seen it happen).



> 6) As the main effort, focus on delivering a high quality, high intensity training experience to soldiers at the section level. Build other stuff on top of that foundation as required.



If your main effort for a Brigade Trg Event is Level 2 (section), then you have a problem.  Whatever BTS are being undertaken should be confirmed at Level 2 long before the BTE, as these are gateways to level 3 (platoon).  BTEs should be focused on practicing and confirming at Level 3, otherwise, you're wasting a lot of command and staff horsepower on training Sgts and below.  That's what the units should be focused on (realistically, confirmation should be two levels down--company should confirm section, unit should confirm platoon, brigade should confirm company/company gp/cbt tm.  The reality of the Reserves, however, tends to force this all down one level, so units pretty much have to confirm section and brigades have to confirm platoon).  As for Level 4...well, it would be nice, but it's tough to work progressively up to that level in a single Res F trg year.


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## geo (3 Dec 2006)

One of the major problems with weekend exercises is that you never get an oportunity to train your supply/resupply line.  If you have 48hrs of rats & ammo on hand, who needs the following day's when it's time to go home.


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## dglad (3 Dec 2006)

Another good point.  That's why, as a coy OC and later as a CO, I tried to ensure an issue of much-reduced scale of combat supplies (except water) at the start of an ex--for instance, one IMP and five mags only of ammo per pers.  As long as the ex was designed so that events didn't "overrun" resupply too much, it gave the CQ, Pl WOs and sect 2ics a good workout shovelling supplies forward.  However, that's only good for integral support; it's REALLY hard to realistically exercise close support on a weekend ex and resupply the integral sp elements.  You really need a longer exercise for that (especially if you're going to incorporate lessons learned from Afghanistan, which are, I think, probably causing a major rethink/rewrite of sustainment doctrine).


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## daftandbarmy (4 Dec 2006)

If your main effort for a Brigade Trg Event is Level 2 (section), then you have a problem.  Whatever BTS are being undertaken should be confirmed at Level 2 long before the BTE, as these are gateways to level 3 (platoon).  BTEs should be focused on practicing and confirming at Level 3, otherwise, you're wasting a lot of command and staff horsepower on training Sgts and below.  That's what the units should be focused on (realistically, confirmation should be two levels down--company should confirm section, unit should confirm platoon, brigade should confirm company/company gp/cbt tm.  The reality of the Reserves, however, tends to force this all down one level, so units pretty much have to confirm section and brigades have to confirm platoon).  As for Level 4...well, it would be nice, but it's tough to work progressively up to that level in a single Res F trg year.


Dglad,

I agree with you, however, if a Bde Level ex is set up just to train only at level 2 and higher, then the troops can sit around twiddling their thumbs while the Pl/Coy HQs get exercised. There are ample opportunities to keep the sections busy, and therefore interested and keen to come back, as long as a little planning and imagination is put in to it. One of the best militia exercises I attended had us doing company level tasks in a round robin scenario over a week long cycle and I, as company commander, had enough time to make sure that we were ready to go on to the cbt tm attack, coy level FIBUA, ambush or whatever the next task was. Each 'stand' had loads of section level tasks embedded within the overall coy/pl level tasks e.g. '1 Pl left assault' translates into the two lead sections each clearing buildings or bunkers within their arcs etc. Luckily there wasn't much micro-management either, which was a refreshing change. 

Where it can all go wrong is when some keeners in the exercise DS net are itching to get their hands on some troops and jump in and start telling your individual platoons and sections what to do 'for exercise purposes', especially when they are regulars and your sect/pl comds are reservists. With the obvious exception of safety issues, I relish squashing this type of hijacking activity. You'll probably agree that the best result, on training or operations, is always obtained where there is a commander to commander discussion resulting in the efficient accomplishment of the assigned tasks, and the admin echeleons support the commanders (not always easy to achieve, unfortunately).


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## dglad (4 Dec 2006)

> I agree with you, however, if a Bde Level ex is set up just to train only at level 2 and higher, then the troops can sit around twiddling their thumbs while the Pl/Coy HQs get exercised.



If this is happening, then something has gone badly wrong.  Training level 3 and higher BTS implies exercising the troops, because, aside from some parts of the battle procedure (orders, recces), the troops should be fully engaged.  There are always concurrent activites needing to be done, and if the comd has his s**t together, his initial Wng O has listed probable tasks...and if his 2ic has HIS s**t together, he'll immediately begin rehearsing/exercising the troops on those probable tasks.  This can begin right at the start of battle procedure.  Or, to put it another way...if trg is well designed for a given level, it fully employs the levels below it.  I've never bought the criticism that training at, say, level 4 (coy or coy gp) means the coy comd and pl comds will be busy and everyone else will end up sitting around waiting for the comds to recce and plan and write orders and give orders, etc.  

Your round robin scenario is a good venue for some types of trg.  The thing to watch is trying to fill the time with too many stands, because then battle procedure gets compressed and comds now don't have adequate time to do their jobs.  Not only is the training for them degraded, but then the trg for the troops suffers as well because the comds are all f****d up.

I guess my point is that indiv and sect level (levels 1 and 2) should be confirmed before a BTE starts...but that doesn't mean levels 1 and 2 cease to be exercised!



> Where it can all go wrong is when some keeners in the exercise DS net are itching to get their hands on some troops and jump in and start telling your individual platoons and sections what to do 'for exercise purposes', especially when they are regulars and your sect/pl comds are reservists. With the obvious exception of safety issues, I relish squashing this type of hijacking activity. You'll probably agree that the best result, on training or operations, is always obtained where there is a commander to commander discussion resulting in the efficient accomplishment of the assigned tasks, and the admin echeleons support the commanders (not always easy to achieve, unfortunately).



When DS or observer/controllers start stepping on the chain of comd, they need to be put back in their box.  Comds at all levels need to be allowed to succeed and fail on their own, while the staff observe and record.  Then everyone can learn from the results during the AAR.


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## daftandbarmy (4 Dec 2006)

dglad,

Yup. Agree fully. The biggest problems occur when the CO-Comd-Staff nets get this stuff wrong. There's only so much a measly OC can fix. So now you seriously need to consider coming to work for us out west.


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## Sgt_McWatt (6 Dec 2006)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Examples of disorganization, and what you'd do to fix it would be a start. How you would be prepared to handle the logistics of all arms and units combined in one area as a follow up, would be good. How 'bout it? Sometimes an untrained, junior outlook provides a fresh perspective to old, set in their ways experience and know how..
> 
> Don't bring a problem, unless you got a solution.


Ha ha I wont pretend my big one year of service gives me any say. And I also have not been on any tours. BUTT, from what I understand overseas. However I know for example I was in St. Marys. Simply moving the HQ (which consisted of 2 desks) to a class room you could fit an entire additional infantry company or armoured equivalent. I participated on Vigilant Guardian and even seeing the other units operating and running a proper FOB. The MPs 1st Hussars and service battalion all from London were located in other places. I just think that if we were to combine the resources it would be more effective. you would have more OP-For to work with and run better scenarios. Just a few thoughts.


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## Osotogari (15 Dec 2006)

Here's another one.  41 Bde is no longer going to Ft. Pickett, Virginia for a BTE, instead we're going to..................

Dundurn, SK.   

They give all sorts of excuses, but at least they won't have to worry about staff dropping the ball in trying to get the border paperwork sorted out, making one wonder what they'll mess up in the meantime.  All sorts of excuses are given, but it sounds like a combination of laziness, lack of vision, and budgetary problems.  


I love Saskatchewan in March, especially Dundurn with its incredibly modern training facilities. I can sure see people giving up vacation time from their jobs for this one.



Wankers


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## geo (15 Dec 2006)

well - your staff officers will save a bundle on insect repellent AND sunblock.

On another point, you have to take into account the fact that starting in Jan, all Cdns travelling to the US by air will need passports... staff checks to make sure everyone has a passport will be a bear....

There is the matter of our friends in the media.......... they will (might) read the couple of hundred guys going down south as a "junket"

Then there is the possibility that the US forces in Ft Pickett might not be in a position to receive ya all this year.......

Lots of reasons = some of em are good, some aren't

Enjoy Dundurn........... it's better than going to Wemindji on the James bay coast in Feb


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## Prd_Cdn (15 Dec 2006)

:warstory:Osotogari; 

   I bleed your pain. I am too a member of 41 CBG and all it seems to me is that they make all these promises and they fall through all the time. I am tired of it. Remember the ex to California and we trained at Debney to shoot at a paintball field transported by minivans last year? Man was that FUN ;D
    Why are they so incompetent?? To many people in CBG dont want to do anything. They just want their 135% pay (ex Reg - 50% pension PLUS B Class 85%) just to work Tuesdays - Thursday, 6 Hours MAX. Ive seen it, I worked B Class for too long for this CBG. 
    
  Good Luck.. see ya around the Armoury.


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## JBP (15 Dec 2006)

Interesting... Our unit goes down to Florida every couple years or longer to train with the Americans. Some even apparently drove Humvees and all that good stuff! And also apparently they used to have National Guard units come up with their helo's and do rapell drops and training w/us in our own parkinglot!!! A lot of that stuff went down the drain years ago I was told for some BS (Bureaucratic) reasons and others real.

I think a lot of it just has to do with manpower it seems... Our unit is (apparently) a pretty large reserve infantry unit. Regular parade nights we have about 2 platoons show up on a decent night. If it rains or is bad weather and some of these toolbags don't show up, then we get a platoon or so... But usually we have about 2 platoons+... We are severly lacking in SNco leadership though. But that's not a surprise at any reserve unit I've run across it seems.

So I figure the more grunts you have, and the more units around yours to train with the better overall ex's you'll have. Then again I've only been in for 2 years and really haven't seen all that much yet and from what I can tell have been spoiled already!


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## Fishbone Jones (15 Dec 2006)

geo said:
			
		

> On another point, you have to take into account the fact that starting in Jan, all Cdns travelling to the US by air will need passports... staff checks to make sure everyone has a passport will be a bear....


All that will be required for military pers on duty will be a NATO travel order and current ID card. No passport needed.


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## geo (15 Dec 2006)

(yeah - I know about the nato travel order.... but, again, it becomes documents that the Bde must generate)


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## aesop081 (15 Dec 2006)

geo said:
			
		

> (yeah - I know about the nato travel order.... but, again, it becomes documents that the Bde must generate)



NATO travel orders originate from your Unit OR.......not higher, so brigade doesnt have to generate that perticular item of paperwork.


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## geo (16 Dec 2006)

xcept when said unit is a composite unit cobbled together by the Bde.


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## aesop081 (17 Dec 2006)

geo said:
			
		

> xcept when said unit is a composite unit cobbled together by the Bde.



I travel on NATO orders fairly frequently.  Even when it is as part of a composite training unit, the home unit OR is responsible for producing the one-sheet travel orders. The form doesnt even have to be signed by a CO, the unit chief clerk can do it.  The composite unit you are refering to has been assigned a CO, and he can delegate the issue of nato travel orders to home units before personel deploy.  There is no reason why higher formation needs to be involved.


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## Haggis (17 Dec 2006)

recceguy said:
			
		

> All that will be required for military pers on duty will be a NATO travel order and current ID card. No passport needed.



*THREAD HIJACK ALERT*

A frequently overlooked fact is that neither a passport or a NATO Travel Order and valid I card is a guarantee of entry into the US.  If a member is deemed "inadmissable" by US Customs and Border Protection s/he can be either detained or "bounced" (returned to the country of origin) at the port of entry.  Usually this is as a result of a dual citizenship held by the member or a prior criminal conviction in Canada.  The US does not recognize a Canadian pardon.

*THREAD HIJACK ALERT ENDS.  THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.*


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## geo (17 Dec 2006)

Haggis.... I don't consider your comments as a hijack... very pertinent to Res Bde FTX that have been taking place in the USA for the last couple of years.


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## Haggis (17 Dec 2006)

geo said:
			
		

> Haggis.... I don't consider your comments as a hijack...



That's good... 'cause I'm not editing the scrolling thingy I worked so hard to get right.

Now, back on topic:  I think there is value added to going south for Bde or higher FTX's.  That being said, we have to realize that there's an awful amount of staff work required and we are always subject to the operational requirements of the host nation, right up until the last minute.  (I remember an ex a few years ago where my company was double booked at the MOUT site with a SEAL Team.  We ended up providing some OPFOR for them when theirs was a no-show.)

I'm a firm believer in "outside the box" thinking (and I live in a pretty big box, built by guys like PPCLI Guy) but I have also seen many Reserve FTX's bite off far more than they can chew to give troops "a taste of everything" as was alluded to earlier by covering all phases of war in 36 hours.  To that I say:

a. take a weekend and do one or two things very well (i.e convoy escorts, recce patrols, ONE raid).

b. take a week and do three things very well (advance to contact, hasty defense, deliberate attack).

c.  support the damned ex properly!

In both cases, make time for proper Battle Procedure, including rehearsals, and provide as much "real time" support as possible. (If a flag officer has to miss his Griffon taxi flight so a Transport Pl Comd can do a route recce by air, then so-be-it.)  The misson comes first, always.

So far the LFCA "Guardian" series has done pretty well at this, but we really need to get the A&B echelons fleshed out and working better.  Nobody works harder on those exercises than the A&B ech units, supporting the F echelons.  They are chronically undermanned.  They need troops just as much as they need trucks.


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## geo (19 Dec 2006)

we're singing the same verse I guess.....
Crawl, walk THEN run.
Learn the theory, walk it thru & then play for keeps.
Much value can be extracted from the OBSERVER CONTORLLERS & the PXRs / critiques after going thru the activity.  It is time consuming but, you're suddenly dealing with multiple sets of eyes, ears & contents in between.... though you musn't take critiques personaly.


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## TangoTwoBravo (19 Dec 2006)

I find that a lot of exercises take the "run, stumble, fall" approach to training design.  

I like limited aims and maximum time at the lowest levels.  You can take shortcuts later if you've trained cohesive sections and platoons.  Best reserve Ex I was on had us conduct a two-week exercise and we only went above Troop level on the last two days.  We also focused on one thing (advancing to contact), although of course hides and replens were also practiced.  Low-level training lets the troop/platoon leadership sort things out in private.


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## geo (20 Dec 2006)

There is no doubt that if you know your basics - Section & Platoon/Troop in the Advance, Attack, Defence, Withdrawal etc, doing it, at one point or another on a Coy/Sqn, Bn/Reg't, Bde level will be a whole lot easier.


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