# New Designations



## Michael Dorosh (7 Feb 2005)

Just noticed a sig line in another thread and noticed RCACC was abbreviated RC(Army)CC - obviously to distinguish Air from Army.

I wonder if a redesignation wouldn't be in order?

Royal Canadian Air Force Cadets would be distinct from Royal Canadian Army Cadets.  (RCAFC and RCAC)

RCAC means Royal Canadian Armoured Corps also.

After thinking about that, it seems to me that the Army in Canada has never been Royal.  So to be in line with the big brothers,wouldn't Canadian Army Cadets (CAC) be more appropriate, and less confusing?


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## ouyin2000 (7 Feb 2005)

This is a quote from the Royal Canadian Army Cadet Reference Manual - PO 402.08 (Fundamental Training - History of the RCAC) (Page 2-20)



> In 1942, in recognition of the significant contribution of former cadets to the war effort, His Majesty King George VI conferred the title "Royal" on the Royal Canadian Army Cadets and accepted the appointment of "Colonel-in-Chief" of the Royal Canadian Army Cadets. HRH Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh presently holds this appointment.



The RCAC Reference Manual may be found at http://www.cadets.ca/armcad/resources-ressources/4_e.asp

I am not sure about the Sea Cadets or Air Cadets, but this says that the Army Cadets are fully entitled to be addressed as Royal Canadian Army Cadets.


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## Inch (7 Feb 2005)

Cadets have been given Royal ascent, why remove it just because the Army never received it?

I always thought that the difference was RCACS - Royal Canadian Air Cadet Sqn and RCACC Royal Canadian Army Cadet Corps, the last letter being the indicator of what colour the boys and girls wore. So it's not really necessary to distinguish when you're talking about the units themselves. 

As for RCAC, it's just on paper that causes some confusion, to see them there is no doubt who is who.


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## Zedic_1913 (7 Feb 2005)

I have been taught to put it as RC(Army)CC, since RCAC is Royal Canadian Armoured Corps.  Since I am affiliated to an armoured regiment, we probably do this so as to not cause any confusion.


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## Bean (8 Feb 2005)

Inch has it right, the air types should be abbreviating RCACS, and the army folks RCACC.  The Air or Army in Brackets is often used, but not required.  That being said, different versions of the mil writing standards will contradict this.  Seems to depend on the year or revision of the manual.


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## PViddy (10 Feb 2005)

> I am not sure about the Sea Cadets or Air Cadets, but this says that the Army Cadets are fully entitled to be addressed as Royal Canadian Army Cadets.



In recognition of the significant contribution of former cadets to the war effort, His Majesty King George VI conferred the title royal to the cadet program, *creating the Royal Canadian Sea Cadets*, the Royal Canadian Army Cadets, and* the Royal Canadian Air Cadets*. It is estimated that nearly 230 000 former sea, army and air cadets served in His Majesty's forces during World War Two. 

source:  DND
http://www.cadets.ca/about-nous/histo_e.asp

Until i see a memo saying that it's changed, it's always gonna be RC(Air)C [stated unit here].  Not all Air cadets have "Squadrons, thus the problem.  Some units are big enough to have a wing....ya talkin round 200 cadets...it's crazy.  So don't know that the change would work all the time.  i will give you, it would be a ton easier to determine between the 3 elements if we used a new abbreiviation and less writing too.  Especially since Sea Cadets as well as Army both use "Corps".


PV


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## Michael Dorosh (10 Feb 2005)

Good points all around, thanks for the answers, gents.

As for Sea Cadet "Corps"... I guess RCSCC is different enough.  No need to change the title, though if you wanted to be more in line with naval reserve units you could, I suppose, have Her Majesty's Canadian Sea Cadet Corps UNDAUNTED.  (HMCSCC ?)

RCACC and RCACS work for me - so are there units smaller than squadrons in the air cadets?  You identify Wings - wouldn't a wing simply be divided into two or more squadrons?


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## ouyin2000 (10 Feb 2005)

as far as i know (in Pac Reg) each unit (whether sea cadet corps, air cadet squadron, or army cadet corps) has a unit number, and is called a Corps or Squadron (depending on the element) no matter how many flights/platoons/divisions they are parading


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## Spartan (10 Feb 2005)

(though If I remember correctly - all/most army cadet units have a 4 digit number prefix - air only has 3 or less)

Cadet units are numbered according to order of formation.  #1 was the first...1188 the 1188th etc.


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## alan_li_13 (10 Feb 2005)

> The only confusion I see between RCACC and RCACS is when you have an Engineer/Comms Sqn - I've seen them address themselves as RCACS and it can provide for some confusion



Incorrect. Army Cadet corps affiliated with the Engineers or Sigs are still corps. Similar to Armoured corps, they can be split into smaller units which are squadrons. 



> (though If I remember correctly - all/most army cadet units have a 4 digit number prefix - air only has 3 or less)



Nope, living proof: i'm from 337 Queen's York Rangers Royal Canadian (Army) Cadet Corp. Our buddies the Tor Scots next to us is numbered 75 RC(A)CC


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## GGHG_Cadet (10 Feb 2005)

I'm 748 here in Markham, and there are corps like #2, #7 and #9


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## JimmyPeeOn (10 Feb 2005)

Actually all branches of the service were at one point given royal ascent.  Even today some units still carry it eg "Royal Canadian Regiment" "1.2.5 R.C.H.A" "Royal Canadian Dragoons" and once "Royal Canadian Corps of Sigs".


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## PViddy (10 Feb 2005)

> You identify Wings - wouldn't a wing simply be divided into two or more squadrons?



Correct.  A wing does consist of two or more Squadron's and what they usually do is just create a new unit somwhere else if a Air Cadet Squadron is parading 180 + cadtes for a year or two.  So eventually the size will be cut but in the meantime with that many people they are technically not of Squadron size.  An example of this recently was in the Oshawa and maybe the GTA area of Ontario (from talking to members of said units while on course-correct me if i am worng please).

Having said that, it's a tiny technical issue, i am sure they are not gonna rush an create new shoulder flashes just for a year or two of a rather large quota.  I am also not even sure if a unit can have the title of "wing" officially on paper.  if i had my choice and we did go to a new abreiviations, i would say to said humugeous units "suck it up!"  


regards

PV


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## yoman (10 Feb 2005)

My unit is a Wing . We have 2 Squadron`s with 2 flights of about 30 cadets in each squadron and 1 band and 1 flag party for the hole wing. This is pretty new to me cause we were only designated a wing yesterday but when the WO1 calls us he says ''Wing'' instead of ''Squadron'' so maybe its called a wing on paper. All know more next week.


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## big_castor (10 Feb 2005)

Wings use to be part of the official organisation of the Air Cadets : A Wing was comprised of at least 3 Squadron  with a minimum of 225 cadets.  For example, the 3 Canadair Squadrons (588, 592, 621) use to be part of no16 Wing. Provisions where made for a Wing HQ with the positions of Wing Commander, Wing Adjutant, Supply Officer and Training Officer, Wing Chaplain etc...

There are no more Wing in our organisations: a large Squadron may call itself a Wing, parade has a â Å“Wingâ ? with â Å“Squadronsâ ? instead of flights but that unofficial : it's just a big Squadron.


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## PViddy (10 Feb 2005)

what i suspected.

PV


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## yoman (10 Feb 2005)

But the funny thing my CO said that we have to maintaine are current quota to maintain are "Wing" designation. I dought its just a thing that are staff decided to cal us that sir because a whole bunch of peaple just got promoted to WO2 and Flight Seargent wich would pass the maximum allowed for 1 squadron. We know have something like 7 WO's and 6  Flight Seargent's. I will find out how this new "Wing" will operated next week so I will let you know.


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## Burrows (10 Feb 2005)

Cadet corps/squadrons are numbered according to formation.  #1 would be the first cadet corps and 1188 would the the 1188th.


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## Zedic_1913 (10 Feb 2005)

PViddy said:
			
		

> An example of this recently was in the Oshawa and maybe the GTA area of Ontario (from talking to members of said units while on course-correct me if i am worng please).


You mean they split 151 Chadburn?   When did this happen?   I'm from Oshawa, but we don't really hear much from 151.


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## PViddy (10 Feb 2005)

Well, this is all "i heard from a guy that heard from his sister's aunt's friend's mother" stuff.  But i don't think they split chadburn, with all that development around that area i think they just created another unit, then people from huge Squadron's co thtere instead etc.  I don't know for sure, but 151 sure is pretty big.

PV


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## condor888000 (10 Feb 2005)

yoman said:
			
		

> My unit is a Wing . We have 2 Squadron`s with 2 flights of about 30 cadets in each squadron and 1 band and 1 flag party for the hole wing. This is pretty new to me cause we were only designated a wing yesterday but when the WO1 calls us he says ''Wing'' instead of ''Squadron'' so maybe its called a wing on paper. All know more next week.



How large is the band? 

4 flights about 30 each would mean 120 in ranks, 5 with flags, add in a few WO's...looking at what? 130 plus band? That's about the same size as 51...


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## Docherty (10 Feb 2005)

I don't think the Corps/Squadrons are given their numbers according to when they were formed.  I know my corp is the oldest in BC (102 years) and our number is 2290 another corp in Vancouver is 72nd Seaforth Highlanders which came to about a decade or 2 later.  111 Pegasus is the oldest RCACS in Canada and there is other squadrons with smaller numbers.  As it looks I believe the Corps/Squadron numbers are random.


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## my72jeep (10 Feb 2005)

I know that in the army cadets corps numbers can be re issued just like uniforms if an older unit has closed and a new one starts the old number can and will be used.


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## marshall sl (10 Feb 2005)

The 72nd SHofC Cadets get their number from the  Reserve Battalion. They were originally the 72nd Vancouver Highlanders, Then became the 72nd Seaforth Highlanders of Canada.

When the Seaforths went overseas in WW1 they were the 72nd Batt Canadian Expeditionary Force


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## Docherty (10 Feb 2005)

Makes sence to me.


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## GGHG_Cadet (10 Feb 2005)

Burrows you are wrong. That was the original idea but over the years it changed. For example my sister corp is numbered  2402 and my corp, 748, split from them 25 years ago or something like that.


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## Burrows (11 Feb 2005)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> I know that in the army cadets corps numbers can be re issued just like uniforms if an older unit has closed and a new one starts the old number can and will be used.



Is this what happened possibly?


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## GGHG_Cadet (11 Feb 2005)

Not in my corp's case. We got our name from the streets surrounding our corp. They are Hwy. 7 and Hwy. 48 therefore 748


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## yoman (11 Feb 2005)

Our band is about 30 cadets and like 7 warrants plus a few extra Flight Seargents. I would say were about 160-170


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## condor888000 (11 Feb 2005)

Just wondering here...hoping the same wouldn't happen to 51, but we're 130ish so I don't see it happening.


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## yoman (11 Feb 2005)

Why wouldn't you want this to happen to 51? I like it, besides losing my flight seargent and the 2IC but in return got an other great flight seargent.


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## condor888000 (11 Feb 2005)

Frankly, I don't feel like having to deal with another major change in the organization of the sqn, I've seen a few in 5 years. They never seem to work out quite right and we end up back the way we were before...


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## Spartan (11 Feb 2005)

Docherty said:
			
		

> I don't think the Corps/Squadrons are given their numbers according to when they were formed. I know my corp is the oldest in BC (102 years) and our number is 2290 another corp in Vancouver is 72nd Seaforth Highlanders which came to about a decade or 2 later. 111 Pegasus is the oldest RCACS in Canada and there is other squadrons with smaller numbers. As it looks I believe the Corps/Squadron numbers are random.


On the air side there was an attempt to number in sequence - this soon rapidly fell apart.

Contrary to common belief 111 Sqn isn't the oldest. 6 Jim Whitecross Sqn is. Its been proven.


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## Spartan (11 Feb 2005)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> I know that in the army cadets corps numbers can be re issued just like uniforms if an older unit has closed and a new one starts the old number can and will be used.


 Air side this happens as well.


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## PViddy (11 Feb 2005)

My unit has been around since 1944, i know their are older ones out their though.

PV


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## condor888000 (12 Feb 2005)

November 21, 1941 here...


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## Spartan (14 Feb 2005)

Oct 1938
6 Jim Whitecross Sqn - Winnipeg.Read more here.
Official Legue Charter - Sep 1941-  There are a few formed on this initial date of recognition.


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## Jonny Boy (14 Feb 2005)

PViddy said:
			
		

> My unit has been around since 1944, i know their are older ones out their though.
> 
> PV



i am pretty sure that my corp has been around since 1911. but it is not the oldest either


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## PViddy (14 Feb 2005)

Naturally you will find some Army Cadet Corps that have been around for quite awhile, longer than air units since the whole Airforce concept really came into conception around the WW2 era.

PV


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## Riobeard (17 Feb 2005)

The Term Squadron actually came from the Engineers in that the first aircraft in WW1 were actually maintained and operated by the Engineers before formation of the Canadian Air Force.  Hence the term Squadron was carried forward from the Engineers who are still organized in formations of Squadrons made up of Troops.


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## Spartan (18 Feb 2005)

What about the Navy who have squadrons in their flotilla's?


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## Love793 (21 Feb 2005)

Riobeard said:
			
		

> The Term Squadron actually came from the Engineers in that the first aircraft in WW1 were actually maintained and operated by the Engineers before formation of the Canadian Air Force.   Hence the term Squadron was carried forward from the Engineers who are still organized in formations of Squadrons made up of Troops.



The term squadron actually came from the cavalry, as most pilots came from the Cavalry (Armoured Corps).


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## PViddy (21 Feb 2005)

squadron
Dictionarysquad ·ron (skwÃ…?d'rÉâ„¢n) 
n.
A naval unit consisting of two or more divisions of a fleet.
An armored cavalry unit subordinate to a regiment and consisting of two or more troops.
A cavalry or armored unit of a European army, corresponding to a company.
A basic tactical air force unit, subordinate to a group and consisting of two or more flights.
A multitude or horde: "Squadrons of flies like particles of dust danced up and downâ ? (T.E. Lawrence).
[Italian squadrone, augmentative of squadra, squad. See squad.]


courtesy of answers.com

I cannot find any mention as to Engineers first coining the word but it is clearly a military formation.   it would be between Army and Navy who first used the term since Airforce came much later.

And adding to this post, i just found this right after posting.
squadron 
A Squadron is a grouping of aircraft, naval vessels, armoured fighting vehicles or soldiers. 

An air force, army aviation or naval aviation squadron typically consists of three or four flights, with a total of 12 to 24 aircraft, depending on aircraft type and air force. In the Imperial Japanese Army in the Second World War, three air squadrons were assigned to each air regiment. Some air forces (including the Royal Air Force and United States Air Force) also use the term for a ground unit. 
An armoured (and formerly a horsed cavalry) squadron typically consists of four or five troops. In the United States Army, a squadron is the Armor Branch equivalent of a battalion of infantry or artillery; in the British Army, it is the counterpart of an infantry company or an artillery battery. 
In Britain, the designation is also used for company-sized units in the Special Air Service, Royal Engineers, Royal Corps of Signals, Royal Army Medical Corps and Royal Logistic Corps, and formerly of the now defunct Royal Corps of Transport, as well as some units in the Royal Marines. 
A naval squadron is a more ad hoc grouping. The only requirement for a grouping of ships to be a squadron, is that at least two must be capital ships (battleships, battlecruisers, cruisers, or aircraft carriers). In the United States Navy, several ships of a similar type, such as submarines and destroyers, are administered as squadrons. 

cheers

PV


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## Riobeard (1 Mar 2005)

CANADA'S FIRST MILITARY FLIGHT
The idea of flight to support military operations is in no stretch of the imagination a 20th century concept.   The use of balloons for observation and artillery fire control was used by Napoleon and during the U.S. Civil War.   By the late 1800's the Royal Engineers had established balloon sections and a Air Battalion.   It was these Engineer sponsored units that carried out the experimentation that brought Britain to the fore of Military aviation.   Indeed the Royal Air Force dates it's history back to these R.E. Balloon Sections. 
Unfortunately, the suggestions put forth by the 6th Field Company R.C.E. in 1913 to form an aviation section were not implemented in Canada, but the young Corp of R.C.E. did have the privilege to be connected with Canada's first Military flight.   In July 1909 the Corp was tasked to construct a hanger and temporary airstrip in Petawawa, Ontario.   Also on site were two associates of Dr. Alexander Graham Bell and Ex-Sappers of the 2nd Field Company C.E.   On the 23 July 1909, Mr. J.A.D. McCurdy and F.W. Baldwin, with the assistance of Capt. Tyrrell R.E. and Lt. Perrin R.C.E., began to assemble two aircraft delivered by rail from Braddock N.S. 

On the 2 Aug 1909, Baldwin and McCurdy made four successful take-offs and landings.   Unfortunately the "Silver Dart" was wrecked on the fourth landing.   With the aid of a Sapper ground crew the second aircraft "Beddeck 1" was assembled and flown before a considerable audience of military and civil officials.   Again misfortune plagued the demonstration and the "Beddeck 1" crashed on its second landing.   As a result of these demonstrations Maj. Maunsell, as Director of Engineer Services, was assigned to observe any new trials carried by McCurdy and Baldwin.   He spent several days at Beddeck N.S. in 1910 and was taken up on two "short flips".   As a result he was convinced that flying had a future in the military and suggested that an aviation section R.C.E. be formed to conduct trials on the handling of aircraft and balloons. 

Even though the Militia Council approved his recommendations, the Minister of Militia and Defence vetoed the proposal.   Thus ending Canada's first attempt at forming a military aviation section.   The reasons for the veto are unknown.   Perhaps, with war clouds looming in Europe and the heavy commitments for Engineer services to the permanent Corp, military flight had a low priority.   But, as the bronze plaque at C.F.B. Petawawa states "The first Military demonstration of aircraft flight in Canada" was in fact a Sapper flight. 
   
While I don't dispute that "Squadron" came from the more senior service and was used for classification of other formations, my point was the term Squadron as it refers to the air force comes from the original units formed within the Engineer branch of the Army.


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