# Need help identifying a flag



## Alter Ego (12 Feb 2002)

Good Day to all,

I have a quick question for the assembled gurus;
A buddy of mine from the Navy (i know...) asked me to research a flag that was found while they were cleaning out their Armoury.

The flag in question is rectangular, dark blue with a Union Jack in the top left corner. There is a hand and forearm coming vertically out of a crown-shaped castle battlement. The hand is holding, at a 45 degree angle, what appears to be a tube (cannon?) with flames coming out of both ends. The tube seems to have a pair of wings (bird, angel) attached at the midpoint, where the hand is holding it. There are six lightning-shaped arrows pointing out from around the centre of the drawing.
There is a manufacturer (Porter Bros Ltd, Liverpool) and a Catalogue Number (HH 0467) printed on the border of the flag.

Any help with this would be much appreciated.

Phil
Honi Soit qui Mal y Pense


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## Spr Earl (12 Feb 2002)

It sound‘s like a Blue Ensign belonging to a former Colony or British Dominion prior to the Commonwealth.

 These flag‘s were used on the country‘s Ship‘s, we had a blue ensign it was the same as the old flag but had the Dark Blue background.

 Try and find who the Coat of Arm‘s belong to and you will find out the Country.

 This off the top of my head and hope it help‘s.


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## portcullisguy (12 Feb 2002)

It sounds like the flag is indeed a naval ensign of some sort, obviously of British origin.

In terms of heraldry, the device described is not a coat of arms, but a crest.  Crests often feature a crown or wreath, forming the base for the actual crest beast or image itself.  In this case, it sounds like the crest has a "mural crown" for a base.  This type of crown resembles an embattlement or fortification such as on a castle tower or wall.  The crest issuing from the crown is not familiar to me off-hand, but I checked possibly EVERY British colonial flag accessible by image on the web, and did not find anything similar.

I have taken the trouble to contact Porter Bros. Ltd., Liverpool, and make a request for information pertaining to this flag.  I will, of course, post their reply, if they are successful in tracing it (they should be, it‘s their flag!).

If anyone is interested in looking at Porter‘s website and products themselves, the address is:
 http://www.flagsbyporters.co.uk/ 

I will let you know as soon as I have heard from them!


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## Alter Ego (13 Feb 2002)

Thanks very much for your help...looking forward to being able to put this to rest.


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## Spr Earl (14 Feb 2002)

After reading Portcullisguy‘s responce and my own endevour could it be a Unit Flag shore side i.e. Radar,Sig‘s,or a A.A.A unit etc. 
 The reason I say this is I think the R.N.V.R. use the Blue Ensign ?


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## portcullisguy (14 Feb 2002)

> Originally posted by Spr Earl:
> [qb]After reading Portcullisguy‘s responce and my own endevour could it be a Unit Flag shore side i.e. Radar,Sig‘s,or a A.A.A unit etc.
> The reason I say this is I think the R.N.V.R. use the Blue Ensign ?[/qb]


That fits with the blue ensign, and the lightning-bolt style arrows would seem to indicate a connection to electronics of some sort (engineering, sigs, radar, as you suggested).

I wasn‘t aware that this was or is common practice, however... ensigns for shore units.  Standards, yes, and colours, yes, but I am not familiar with separate ensigns.  But I‘m no authority, either...


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## Spr Earl (15 Feb 2002)

I like my history I was a merchant seaman for 5 yrs ,sailing Norsk,Dansk, and English Merchant ship‘s but as to my last rethinking would not the back ground be light blue?For a shore unit? 

 I tried to phone one of my relitive‘s in Liverpool but no answer       , this is a good quest !

 Just watching on the History Channel about the Volunteer Canadian Red Cross Women in WW2.

Good program !


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## GOTTAADA2D (3 Mar 2002)

Hello Gentlemen,
 I took the liberty of emailing some folks on the history of flags, and this is what I rec‘d in answer 

"...The tube with flames coming out of both ends is unusual, but in other respects
the flag corresponds to the Blue Ensign of the Royal Engineers.
It was introduced in 1871 when the Royal Engineers‘ Submarine Mining Service was
formed at Chatham.  They installed, maintained and operated underwater defences
in the approaches to dockyard ports.
The ensign of the the 48th Submarine Mining Company of the Royal Canadian
Engineers, who were responsible for the Seaward Defence of Victoria and
Esquimalt Harbour, is preserved in Esquimalt.

Submarine Mining was taken over by the Admiralty in 1904, but the War Office
retained the ensign and it continued to be used by the Royal Engineers‘ Inland
Water Transport Organisation.
I think it was still used in 1945 by those army vessels not operated by the
Royal Army Service Corps.  Until 1996 it was flown at the Royal Engineers Diving
Training Wing at Portsmouth.

The badge is supposed to be derived from the crest of the arms of the Board of
Ordnance, but the wings may be an addition to the original crest.

Regards
David Prothero
High Wycombe, England..."

Does this help your research? 

Regards
Bobbi


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